On empathy, Yom Kippur, and the NFL

Last week it was Yom Kippur when religious Jews and their twice a year compatriots crowd the synagogues and some secular types like me get a strange yearning for challah and are nudged by an insistent internal voice that ponders the very insane state of affairs in which we find ourselves. This voice asks: What exactly are you doing about it anyway? I mean really doing; it is after all Yom Kippur, not a good moment to dance around the truth.

At a time when there is so much ridiculously bad news on an almost hourly basis, (latest tweet, shooting, private planes, private emails, alt-right, healthcare debacle, global warming, tax cuts, hurricanes, earthquakes, genocide, nuclear weapons, Koch Brothers, father and daughter Mercers, Betsy Devos, Syria, Yemen, you pick…) it is easy to feel utterly outraged, overwhelmed, numbed, out-financed.It is also easy to do nothing: let’s just throw up our hands, go for a walk, hug our children, watch another episode of “Game of Thrones”, fold the laundry, toss back another glass of flavonoid-rich Pinot Noir and head to the gym. Let’s just focus on self-improvement and prayer if so inclined.

When the bullies are in the ascendancy and when the oppressed and the oppressor are equated as equally at fault, (anti-fascists vs. KKK and Puerto Ricans vs. hurricanes-big banks-Jones Act-the inheritance of colonialism for starters), how do we change the narrative and the beliefs and behaviors of the society in which we live?And how do we nurture and support ourselves and our friends (and even the people with whom we totally disagree who are our neighbors and coworkers)? How do we create a beloved community that is also empowered and resourceful and aiming for justice in a world trending in the opposite direction?

U.S. Jews are at a particularly difficult moment. After decades of anti-Semitism, we have successfully joined White America in a big way; we can pass. We can go to medical school, join the country club, live in any neighborhood, marry almost anyone’s daughter with a minimum of fuss. As we crawled out of the Jewish ghettos of the Lower East Side, went to school on the GI bill, moved to the suburbs, we flexed our liberal-minded political muscles. One of the bargains we made in the years of the civil rights struggle, in our joining hands with our black brothers and sisters, in our laying our bodies on the line for voting rights, union rights, women’s rights, gay rights, was to believe that discrimination directed towards us no longer applied and that we ourselves were beyond racism and discrimination within our own communities. Not us! We’re Jews, we know better!

At home we now face an unleashing of extremely dangerous anti-Semitic attacks and attacks on Muslims, African Americans, and basically anyone perceived as different from white, hetero, Christian people. At the same time there is a new phenomenon: anti-Semites who are “pro-Israel.” Even within our own communities, as long as someone supports the policies of the State of Israel, we are urged by many of our own leaders to ignore the ugliness that may come along with that. For the alt-right, neo-Nazi, fascist types who are dreaming of a white Christian nation (where Jews, Muslims, Blacks, people of color are not welcome), Israel looks like a perfect solution: a place for Jews to go (solves that problem) while being an example of an extremely successful nation whose goal is ethnic purity. And for extra credit the Israeli government is eager to destroy “Muslim terrorists,” African asylum seekers, and Iranians in the neighborhood, and to serve perceived U.S. foreign policy in general. What’s not to love?

This is all highly problematic. With the mounting awareness of Israeli occupation, in the context of our growing understanding of colonialism, racism, immigration, and Islamophobia, older Jews are increasingly disenchanted with their Hebrew school, Exodus version of Israeli history and younger Jews never bought the glorious mythology in the first place. It is becoming increasingly and painfully clear that today’s Zionism is a movement where people who ran away from existential danger, created a homeland for those victims on the backs of an existing indigenous people.History shows us that the people who have intruded on this Jewish dream will be gotten rid of through genocide, expulsion, segregation, and dehumanization. The mainstream Jewish community does not do well with that particular historical fact. The problem is that no amount of incredible Israeli dance, theater, music, computer technology, devastating weaponry, great pharmaceuticals, gorgeous desert hikes, or spiritual moments can erase the facts of Israeli dispossession, occupation, siege, and institutional discrimination. These facts are deeply corruptive to Israeli Jewish society and Jews in the diaspora as well, and obviously deeply destructive to its victims.

So how do we change the old narrative and challenge the very core of our Jewish self-image: We are the good people, the victims of anti-Semitism, the Holocaust.We deserve our own country; maybe even promised by the Almighty himself.Our victimhood gives us permission to do whatever is necessary to feel safe.Security is a holy word and the rest be damned.

On Erev Yom Kippur, I found myself at a benefit dinner for the Institute for Middle East Understanding (IMEU), a growing organization that works to provide U.S. journalists with accurate and contextualized stories, facts, and analysis of Palestine and Palestinians.See a story in the New York Times or CNN that has unusual depth and understanding of Palestinian life? Thank the IMEU. I had prepared myself for a long evening of speeches, networking, and overcooked salmon but was unprepared for how moved I was, particularly in the context of my holiday.

Lena Khalaf Tuffaha, an amazing poet and essayist of Palestinian, Syrian, and Jordanian heritage, spoke eloquently of the Palestinian struggle, the growth of media coverage in the U.S., and the role of the IMEU. Noura Erakat, human rights attorney, activist and professor at George Mason University, talked with passion and brilliance about the parallels with Black Lives Matter, the long tradition of nonviolent resistance in Palestine, the power of the boycott, divestment, and sanction movement, and the need to address the U.S. role through campaigns designed to re-educate the public. The evening’s honoree was Michael Bennett, Seattle Seahawks football player and activist who turned down an Israeli government sponsored trip to Israel.He quoted track star John Carlos (black power salute on the Olympic podium in 1968), “‘There is no partial commitment to justice. You are either in or you’re out.’ Well, I’m in…It is never the wrong time to do the right thing.”

This was a fundraiser, a celebration, a showcase of the active, committed Palestinian community, but also a uniquely Yom Kippur moment. Clearly my role as a white Jewish woman with all the privilege and entitlement that entails was to step back, listen, ask: What do you need from me? At that moment: to join the celebration of a movement of creative, thoughtful, very visible Palestinians who are building their own powerful voice in U.S. society, linking arms with others in the struggle for justice. It seems to me, this is how we build empathy, increase understanding, face conflict honestly, and build the resistance. This is how we take steps to make this world a better place. To quote Martin Luther King, “In the End, we will remember not the words of our enemies, but the silence of our friends.” I want to be a friend and I do not want to be silent.

The evening ended with raucous dabke dancing, snaking around the hall, young and old, reminding me of the hora at every Bar Mitzvah and Jewish wedding I’ve attended.It seems, everyone loves to dance.

About Alice Rothchild

Alice Rothchild is a physician, author, and filmmaker who has focused her interest in human rights and social justice on the Israel/Palestine conflict since 1997. She practiced ob-gyn for almost 40 years. Until her retirement she served as Assistant Professor of Obstetrics and Gynecology, Harvard Medical School. She writes and lectures widely, is the author of Broken Promises, Broken Dreams: Stories of Jewish and Palestinian Trauma and Resilience, On the Brink: Israel and Palestine on the Eve of the 2014 Gaza Invasion, and Condition Critical: Life and Death in Israel/Palestine. She directed a documentary film, Voices Across the Divide and is active in Jewish Voice for Peace. Follow her at @alicerothchild

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“After decades of anti-Semitism, we have successfully joined White America in a big way; we can pass.” I guess I am just ignorant but when did Jews face decades of institutional oppression and racism in America? The only stuff I can ever find on this is claims that there were quotas at Ivy League Schools to keep the number of Jews down (just like every other non Wasps back in the early 20th century) and being excluded from some Country Clubs also early to mid 20th century. Hardly the hurdles every nonwhite group has faced here and far less discrimination and vitriol than Euro ethnics who arrive earlier (the Irish, for example) or around the same time (Italians) faced. Is this not more of a matter of faith than a reality?

Maybe a better source would be the pre-eminent 20th century American intellectual, James Baldwin:

“One does not wish, in short, to be told by an American Jew that his suffering is as great as the American Negro’s suffering. It isn’t, and one knows that it isn’t from the very tone in which he assures you that it is.”

Most Jews arrived at the same time as Italians, Poles, … they were part of the same euro ethnic discrimination. So they got all that plus. The immigration quotas from 1921 if you notice target those Eastern European countries with high Jewish populations, that was not an accident. There were specifically Antisemetic instances, the most serious being General Grant (later president) order the ethnic cleansing of all Jews from Tennessee, Mississippi, and Kentucky to stop the black market: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/General_Order_No._11_(1862)

There was an organized campaign of demonization starting in the 1920s (as part of the general rise of the 2nd klan) headed by people like Henry Ford and Father Coughlin. Essentially what Jews are trying to head off in the BDS movement. The strong ties between this movement and the anti-war movement helped Jews a lot because Pearl Harbor ended up discrediting the American Antisemites.

Many of the lobbies (or their parent organizations) the BDSers complain about originally formed in the post WWII era to fight anti-Jewish immigration quotas. They then turned their attention on the country clubs and college quotas. Then American business that participated in the Arab boycott of Israel because at that point the Arab boycott was explicitly antisemitic (not doing business with companies that had lots of Jews).

If you want to go further back we can talk about the German and Sephardic Jewish community and issues in colonial and post-colonial America. For example the issues regarding trinitarian oaths well into the early 19th century in many colonial / state / municipal governments to hold office. But those aren’t the ancestors of most of today’s American Jews.

All told Jews have had it good in America. There certainly were high levels of Antisemitism, denying that is falsifying history. But this was in a context where there often were still high levels of anti-lots-of-otherstuffism. Jews started being counted among white people by the 1940s. Where there is antisemitism today it comes from marginal groups not societal leaders. Jews are fighting to keep it that way.

” Jews started being counted among white people by the 1940s. Where there is antisemitism today it comes from marginal groups not societal leaders. Jews are fighting to keep it that way.”

Do you have any idea how funny you are “Jeff b”? You deserve not only a “Jews sui generis” lapel button but will also receive a bumper-sticker with “Join the Jewish Fight to Stay White” on it in reflective letters.

I see opportunity in this tho. How about a chain of “de-tanning” salons? Anyway, stay out of the sun, “Jeff b”, we’ve got a people’s status to protect!

“I have long since believed that in spite of all the vigilance that can be infused into post commanders, the special regulations of the Treasury Department have been violated, and that mostly by Jews and other unprincipled traders. So well satisfied have I been of this that I instructed the commanding officers at Columbus to refuse all permits to Jews to come South, and I have frequently had them expelled from the department, but they come in with their carpet-sacks in spite of all that can be done to prevent it. The Jews seem to be a privileged class that can travel anywhere. They will land at any woodyard on the river and make their way through the country. If not permitted to buy cotton themselves, they will act as agents for someone else, who will be at military post with a Treasury permit to receive cotton and pay for it in Treasury notes which the Jew will buy up at an agreed rate, paying gold.”

What?The Japanese attack on the US navy discredited supposed American anti-Semites?

Emery. Yes Henry Ford and Father Coughlin were antisemites. Coughlin spent the whole show right after Kristallnacht talking about how bad Jews were and what a terrific moment this was. He regularly was concerned about how “ “Jewish” financiers controled world politics, He campaigned for the Christian Front which was an internal militia designed to protect the country against communists and Jews. He setup “buy Christian” rallies encouraging people to boycott Jewish businesses. Should I do Henry Ford as well?

And as I mentioned the American Antisemetic movement had tied itself directly to the antiwar movement. So when an axis power attacked us, sinking most of the most of the pacific fleet the country became a lot more hostile towards the antiwar rhetoric including the antisemitic rhetoric that was an important component. Nazi sympathizers just weren’t in fashion anymore.

If you mean it makes no sense from a logical dispassionate policy perspective. Well of course it doesn’t! Antisemitism never does well from people who like logical dispassionate policy perspectives. The whole thing is ridiculous. Usually based on a completely distorted sense of proportion combined with an unwillingness to consider context.

And this is “Essentially what Jews are trying to head off in the BDS movement.”

If you don’t understand the problem with Ford and Coughlin and / or agree with them then I doubt I’m going to be able to explain the analogy. So let’s hold till the next round after you respond on Coughlin.

P.S. Mooser wonderful example this post. Henry Ford and Father Coughlin the two examples I gave are only “supposed anti-semites” now. Nothing to worry about in your organization

“In 1938, a thirty-one nation conference was held in Evian, France, on resettlement of the victims of Nazism. The World Zionist Organization refused to participate, fearing that resettlement of Jews in other states would reduce the number available for Palestine.” (John Quigley, Palestine and Israel: A Challenge to Justice, as quoted in “The Origin of the Palestine-Israel Conflict,” second edition, published by Jews for Justice in the Middle East, Berkeley, California, p. 21.)

The Jewish Agency in Palestine was very concerned about the implications of the Evian Conference. “It was summed up in the meeting [of the Jewish Agency’s Executive on June 26, 1938] that the Zionist thing to do ‘is belittle the [Evian] Conference as far as possible and to cause it to decide nothing…. We are particularly worried that it would move Jewish organizations to collect large sums of money for aid to Jewish refugees, and these collections could interfere with our collection efforts’…. Ben-Gurion’s statement at the meeting: ‘No rationalization can turn the conference from a harmful to a useful one. What can and should be done is to limit the damage as far as possible.'” (Boas Evron, Jewish State or Israeli Nation? as quoted in “The Origin of the Palestine-Israel Conflict,” by John Quigley, second edition, p. 21.)

On 7 December 1938, during a meeting of the Mapai Central Committee (precursor of the Labour Party), David Ben-Gurion revealed his true feelings regarding the plight of German Jews: “If I knew it was possible to save all the [Jewish] children in Germany by transporting them to England, but only half of them by transporting them to Palestine, I would choose the second…” He attempted to explain his twisted reasoning by adding that he would make such a choice “…because we face not only the reckoning of those children, but the historical reckoning of the Jewish people.” Ben-Gurion also expressed his fear that “‘the human conscience’ might bring various countries to open their doors to Jewish refugees from Germany. He saw this as a threat and warned: ‘Zionism is in danger!'” (Tom Segev, The Seventh Million, Hill and Wang, New York, 1994, p. 28.)

During another speech to the Mapai Central Committee on 7 December 1938, Ben-Gurion admitted that “in these terrible days of the beginning of the disaster that threatens European Jewry, I am still more worried about the elections at the [Mapai] branch in Tel Aviv.” (Segev, p. 105.)

On 27 November 1942, the Yishuv newspaper Davar published an article that referred to the extermination of European Jews as “‘punishment from heaven’ for not having come to Palestine.” (Tom Segev, p. 98). As Ben-Gurion so callously put it on 8 December 1942, during a Mapai meeting: “‘They did not want to listen to us’ ….in their deaths they had sabotaged the Zionist dream.’” (David Ben-Gurion at a gathering of Mapai workers, 8 Dec. 1942; quoted by Tom Segev)

That saving Jews from the Nazis was not the priority of American Zionists was clearly shown during the war. When President Roosevelt became aware of the dire circumstances of European Jews (who were thought at the time to be about 80% of the total number of refugees), he sent his close friend Morris Ernst (a key member of the Democratic party and leader of the New York Jewish community) to London during the middle of the war to see if England and the Commonwealth would join the United States and other countries in taking in a half million Jewish refugees through a generous worldwide policy of political asylum once Hitler was defeated. (Roosevelt felt he could sell the plan to the American Congress if Britain agreed.) Ernst returned home jubilant and advised the President that Britain agreed to “match the United States up to 150,000.” Roosevelt replied:”150,000 to England – 150,000 to match that in the United States – pick up 200,000 or 300,000 elsewhere, and we can start with half a million of these oppressed people.” One week later, however, the President informed Ernst that the program had to be abandoned because “…the dominant vocal Jewish leadership of America won’t stand for it…the Zionist movement knows [that it] can raise vast sums for Palestine by saying to donors, `There is no other place this poor Jew can go.'”

Ernst refused to believe Roosevelt and went about seeking the support of American Jews for the plan. Their response shocked him: “I was thrown out of parlours of friends of mine who very frankly said, `Morris, this is treason. You are undermining the Zionist movement’. [I found] a deep genuine, often fanatically emotional vested interest in putting over the [movement in men] who are little concerned about human blood if it is not their own.” (Lilienthal, TZC, pp.35-36 and Morris Ernst, So Far So Good, Harper & Brothers: New York, 1948, pp. 172-177)

Unless you can point out the inherent or essential differences between Jews, African-Americans and Native Americans, I have to use them as a standard.
The US did not enslave us, did not segregate us or exterminate us. The same exact thing it didn’t do to every other citizen. (O gee, I left out labor disputes, where the US was fully capable of shooting down citizens)

If you want to complain the US didn’t properly appreciate us, that’s up to you. And there’s nothing you can tell us about Father Coughlin and Henry Ford that “Yonah” hasn’t already whined about at length.

And what anti-Jewish laws or reduction of rights did they [Henry Ford and Father Coughlin lead to?

The question was not whether they restricted legal rights but whether they were antisemites. I said two days ago that American antisemitism was mostly social not legal. My opinion hasn’t changed. If you want legal changes though from those two I’d say restricted immigration laws that specifically targeted countries with high Jewish populations.

Outside the USA it was more serious. Ford’s articles were cited often by Nazi propagandists including in Mein Kampf. He was openly cited as an inspiration. So I’d say there was legal impact there. Also Ford was a major financier of the 2nd Klan’s rise starting in 1922, Ford’s motives were antisemitic but I’d say the legal (and social) impact was felt mostly other minorities.

Unless you can point out the inherent or essential differences between Jews, African-Americans and Native Americans, I have to use them as a standard.

Standard for what? My argument is Jews had it somewhat worse than Poles and Italians, that there was some antisemitism in the USA. Things were good but not idea. It obviously was never close to as bad for Jews in the USA as it was for Blacks and Native-Americans.

” It obviously was never close to as bad for Jews in the USA as it was for Blacks and Native-American”

And why not? Having seen what the US was capable of, why them and not us?
Please explain, “Jeff b”, this has bothered me all my life, and I’m sure you know.
Why not us Jews? What did we have that they didn’t?

You won’t like my answer .. but dispensationalism. By 1750 and growing every year since then there was a general belief that Jews had specific dispensation from God and a specific role. That contrasts with the more typical Christian theology that Judaism is the burnt out husk of a once important religion and Jews in sticking to it were obstinate knowing rejectors of Christ and thus goodness. The belief that Jews aren’t rejecting God’s plan but rather are still fulfilling an alternative plan or different plan creates enough room to diffuse total hatred. Antisemitism at its core depends crucially on the mythology that Jews are the knowing agents of Satan. There can be variants Satan can be whatever the person sees as the force of evil in the world: archons, global capital, sexual libertines. But the myth is the same. The Jews uniquely knowingly serve evil. Dispensationalism makes that belief impossible since Judaism is still part of God’s plan.

With dispensationalism Jews are at worst just unsaved. Jews may be going to hell but they are going to hell for the same reason: Muslims, Hindus, Buddhists, atheists… are going to hell. There is nothing specially evil about them, they aren’t active agents of hell. Not only that but because of our covenant we can often attain a status like Jehovah’s witnesses or Unitarians of almost Christian (in their eyes). And that creates more tolerance.

I’m very happy about Pentecostalism spreading all through Latin America and Africa.

“At home we now face an unleashing of extremely dangerous anti-Semitic attacks..” Again, is this a reality or more a matter of religious faith. I am unaware of a single Jew being harmed by a racist attack on his person…and I am pretty sure the media would let us know. Fake bomb threats by an Israeli kid and some tombstones no longer standing — the two examples cited earlier this year when the media was selling the “spate” of anti-semitic attacks since Trump was elected — hardly seem to qualify as “extremely dangerous anti-Semitic attacks.” Can anyone relieve me of my ignorance on this topic and show me all these extremely dangerous anti-Semitic attacks that have been “unleashed”?

” Can anyone relieve me of my ignorance on this topic and show me all these extremely dangerous anti-Semitic attacks that have been “unleashed”?

Well, without going into to much detail we could compare the legal and citizenship status of Jews in the US with those of African-Americans and Native Americans. The US has never been shy about legislating or acting violently against people they did not want included in the US.

FWIW you can look at my posts at the time. I thought it was overblown hysteria mixed with partisanship at the time and I haven’t changed my mind. I suspect we don’t agree on much but this whole surge in dangerous antisemitism on the right is poppycock.

If you do want an attack that resulted in fatalities: Overland Park Jewish Community Center shooting. 3 people died, The intent was to kill Jews and “their accomlices” (stated at trial, motive is not contested: http://www.kansascity.com/news/local/crime/article32624178.html ) though the murderer didn’t plan well. He ended up killing 2 Methodists who were visiting 1 Catholic who worked there and missed the shot he took at the Jewish person visiting. He did express regret about one of the Methodists (who was only 14 years old).

What exactly did we see at Charlottesville? We saw white supremacists, white nationalists, neo-Confederates, neo-Nazis, and various militias. Most of them are not terribly fond of Jews.
In terms of symbology we had: swastikas, confederate flags, lots of anti-Muslim banners, some d antisemitic banners, and “Trump/Pence” signs. Clear message is “Jews are just as bad as blacks and Muslims” because that’s the point even the racists feels is in dispute. The rally was at the location of a civil war monument so that’s mainly anti-black. FWIW the guy in the status Robert E. Lee was not only not an antisemite but appears to be something of a proto-Zionist. Lee considered his Jewish troops to be “Israelites” who practiced the “Jewish religion”. The one person killed was a liberal protestant.

After the whole thing, the entire world more or less condemned the rally in the harshest terms proving how marginal this group was.

Sorry not feeling the paralyzing fear here.

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Now let’s contrast that with your group. Which ceremonially holds week long anti-Jewish demonstrations all over the country for years running. They unite with organizations that have a long track record of deporting over a million Jews and killing thousands of Jews since the holocaust. They openly and explicitly call for the destruction of whole Jewish cities. They engage in aggressive genocidal rhetoric towards over 1/2 the Jewish population. They often engage in the same sort of conspiracy theories. There are some minor differences, they aren’t concerned about us polluting white women sexually just ideologically. Their hatred towards Jews is unique and focused not a diffuse after thought. They have a long track record of attacking Jewish events in multiple forms not just holding demonstrations.

Let’s take their most popular slogans about hating Jews:

Unite the right: “The goyim know” — not sure what they supposedly know. Not even sure they know what they supposedly know. A little paranoid perhaps but not even a clear claim. Mostly I think they don’t like the term “goyim” which somehow right wingers have decided is an insult. Might even clear the whole thing up by teaching them about shegetz.

BDS — “From the river to the sea, Palestine will be free” — free of what? Free of oppression, well who is doing the oppressing? Free politically, it is a democracy so free politically implies a democracy that puts Jews in their rightful place at the bottom. Or most likely what it obviously is a reference to Judenfrei in the cute BDS style of staying one step back from endorsing the final solution.

So why exactly should I consider Charlottesville any worse than what happens on major campuses regularly? If there were 1000 Charlottesville happening per year than I would have been as worried about it as I was about BDS when it was growing. But 1 diffuse rally by people who have to argue amongst themselves whether we are even worth hating anymore? Please.

Nah, it’s not a threat – it’s the promise of a rosy future, similar to the one JeffB described for Palestinians. To paraphrase: Jews need to act like Americans so that Americans will breed with them. The Jewish nation will dissolve and descendants of Jews will live in a technologically-advanced, happy and healthy country. There may be a lot of suffering to get there, but quite a bit of it will be self-inflicted.

Assimilation is the primary fact of Jewish life in America, much like aging and mortality are primary facts of human life over 70 (or over 65, seeing as Tom Petty just died at 66). Still humans over 60 fight against aging and death by means of lifestyle changes. I see value in the preservation of Jewish life in America in attempting to defy assimilation, in preserving the languages of the Jews, their traditions and their identity. In fact my favorite type of Jew is one that assimilates a little and preserves a little. (Here the analogy is to gravity being the fact of life and occasional forays into the flying machines invented by the Wright brothers and others would be the attempts to defy the inevitable rule of gravity.) i think those who see no value in the Jewish past or in some attempt to contemplate a Jewish future have sold out, just like a light skinned black who tries to pass is considered a sell out by most blacks. In the ideal future when America or the world is on a surer path to a better future (rather than the two steps forward and three steps back that is the current state of American culture) then it might be appropriate to jettison most of Jewish identity in favor of aiding or joining the general culture. But currently I cannot agree that it is anything but careless and wasteful. If we mourn the destruction of the rain forests for the destruction of many species, it is perfectly appropriate to mourn the destruction of languages and cultures. I don’t see the destruction of cultures as innately positive and for personal reasons I consider the destruction of Jewish culture to be particularly pernicious because the attempt to destroy the Jewish culture has for centuries been accompanied by coercion both physical and social and I do not believe that the abandonment of Jewish culture can be removed from that historical context. Assimilation (of the sorts that casts aside almost all concerns regarding preservation, education or self consciousness) thus is inevitable but highly regrettable.

Roha … wants the Jews, their state … and their language and their religion to disappear. He does not want to apply Nazi murder to accomplish his goal but assimilation according to him is the greatest invention since sliced bread.

And:

RoHa- You are an enemy to the all small minority groups that wish to maintain their identity. One of those small minority groups are the Jews. Thus you are an enemy to the Jews as a group. …

“Yonah” try and pay attention (since you are too broke to pay anything else) a little, okay? We are talking about “assimulation”, which is a completely different thing, even tho it starts with the same letter.

.” I see value in the preservation of Jewish life in America in attempting to defy assimilation”

Let us know when you repudiate your American citizenship, and file statements saying you no longer accept the protections of American law.

Til then, take your non-assimilation and stick it in your tuchus.

Besides “Yonah” did they ever give us any choice in America? No. They assimilated us. See Washington’s letter.

“Yonah” we know the US is fully capable of denying assimilation to groups. Like the African-Americans and Native Americans (among others, those two most egregious)
Unless, of course, you can think of some <inherent or essential differences between Jews, African-Americans and Native Americans which automatically exempts them and includes us. Wanna try? Please, go ahead.

I understand where you are coming from. But I have to agree with Jabotinsky about שלילת הגלות . The Judaism of the first generation in the American diaspora was built on the horrors of the Pale of the Settlement. It was a product of the Tzar’s hatred and exclusion. The Jewish culture of my great grandparents couldn’t possible last in a decent society. If I myself spoke Yiddish I could pass on to my daughter the words, but I couldn’t pass on the tight integrated community of my grandparents and great grandparents that made Yiddish their language of safety. There are no Cossacks to be safe from. Teaching it would be a ritualistic empty gesture. Preservation for the sake of preservation. Sure I’ll do a little of that but that’s just passing on some knick knacks to decorate her thoroughly American consciousness.

I think Herzl is right about the Jewish religion being that for Judaea. It was an amazing triumph of will that the rituals and customs of that alien culture preserved through the centuries long after the context for them was destroyed with time. I delight in how Israel is creating a healthy context for those rituals of Judaism. And similarly I want Israel to create the context for whatever is worth preserving from the Pale, whatever is worth preserving from Muslim spain, whatever is worth preserving from Morocco.

Jews like me can help Jews reach the higher plane (aliyah in its true sense) but we are also spiritual poison. We are an asset and at the same time a teether to slavery. From birth I’ve learned how to live in a Christian country. I know Luther, Calvin and Augustine better than I know Talmud. I try to help, but i am aware that I need to get out of the way.

Let the Israelis over the next few generations decide what’s worth preserving of my Jewish culture. I preserve that best by preserving them. The ever rising numbers of sabra and their Judaism of freedom is how a Jewish culture worth preserving is kept for centuries to come.

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@Eljay

And that answer to yonah is why he took the comment from me and the comment from RoHa quite differently. The context is different, the intent is different so ultimately he meaning is different. Yonah knows I’m coming from a place of love of the Jewish people.

And that answer to yonah is why he took the comment from me and the comment from RoHa quite differently. The context is different, the intent is different so ultimately he meaning is different. Yonah knows I’m coming from a place of love of the Jewish people. ||

RoHa believes that Jews in America should assimilate and you believe that Jews in America…should assimilate. Yeah, the difference is staggering.

“Jews like me can help Jews reach the higher plane (aliyah in its true sense) but we are also spiritual poison. We are an asset and at the same time a teether to slavery. From birth I’ve learned how to live in a Christian country. I know Luther, Calvin and Augustine better than I know Talmud. I try to help, but i am aware that I need to get out of the way.” “Jeff b”
.

Well, that seems like an easy enough thing to do, to shut your yap. But unfortunately, your own ego is much, much stronger than any feeling you have for the Jewish people. Not to mention your lack of self-control. Oh, and the constant use of the “Costanza Dictum”
Yup, “Jeff b” you are an intellectual sociopath and by your own description, preying on the Jews. Thank God you are so impotent.

“If I myself spoke Yiddish (you can’t learn?)” I could pass on to my daughter the words, but I couldn’t pass on the tight integrated community of my grandparents and great grandparents that made Yiddish their language of safety. There are no Cossacks to be safe from” The inimitable “Jeff b”

Why can’t the world be more like “Fiddler on the Roof”?

When will the non-Jewish world see that the true, the coherent, the authentic Jewish identity can only be developed and adhered to in an environment of anti-semitism, persecution, segregation and genocide? (Oh, and one in which Jews deal with the non-Jewish world through knowledgeable intermediaries like “Yonah fredman” and “Jeff b”).
That’s how we develop a “Judaism of freedom”

Well, that seems like an easy enough thing to do, to shut your yap. But unfortunately, your own ego is much, much stronger than any feeling you have for the Jewish people.

I think I’m helping. That little comment about Charlotte being a wonderful example. Clear evidence that after you cut through the lies and the insults there is nothing to the BDS case. The rudeness isn’t about Israel, Israel is just an excuse for the rudeness.

“Yonah” I couldn’t help but notice that your 10:32 am comment neglects to mention Al Jolson!
Please say you are not neglecting Jolson because when his father refused to support him, he spent some time at a Catholic Boys School, which pretty much saved his life and got him started?

I’ve supported the Kurdish independence for decades since slightly before the first gulf war.

As for RoHa. Given that I was citing from memory how is that wrong except it is possible worse. Jews are around 15m globally. Zionists are hundreds of millions at least. “Zionists are the enemies of mankind.“. I might say that ebola or mosquitos are enemies of mankind but I can’t imagine saying that about a political movement (which is how he meant it).

Yonah,
I essentially agree with you. It seems to me quite natural that people-not only Jews, of course- would want to take pride in their heritage and preserve it , not only because its destruction would be accompanied by coercion, as you note.
On a personal note I’ll put it this way: all those traditions and rituals and values were passed on for centuries, from generation to generation to generation. Am I going to be the last link in the chain? Am I going to say “it ends here, with me”? The hell I am. I’m not willing to take that responsibilty.

In terms of sheer numbers, the flower of American Jewish culture was in the early part of the 20th century, when the traditions were familiar and the language was spoken without forethought naturally. That full flowering birthed a generation or two during which intra Jewish marriages dominated, creating a culture that was definable and easily findable by social scientists. We are now in a stage after that with out marriage being the rule rather than the exception.
It is this mass movement away from Jewish traditions texts and languages that I mourn.
But weiter, as pronounced in yiddish, viter, onward further, what are the future facts.
There are many flowering of small groups who ponder what jew will mean in the future, particularly in america, these are small groups, not a mass movement.
if I were to travel tothe future in 50 years, in American big cities I would seek out the modern orthodox, a group that will shrink in size, but should persist, assuming physical conditions remain stable. At a sukka of some modern orthodox jew I would hear how modern culture circa 2068 is being processed by Jews involved in wider society yet still devoted to the shabbat observant lifestyle. How such a society interplays with the middle east would be of foremost interest, but this diminished group (in size and natural development) and it’s take on 2068 america would be the Jewish future I would visit.

Look, “eljay”, if “Jeff b” wants to ban “RoHa” from his own blog, he can.

“Jeff b” is just like the rest of them, he settles right in and thinks he owns the place.
It’s that same exact loser mentality which warned me off Zionism in the first place.

“Yep. You all are way over my violence quotient with that rhetoric.”

Gee, “Jeff b” have you ever talked to any non-Zionists before? Sure doesn’t seem like it. They’re just slinging back what you so blithely throw out.
And there’s another thing “Jeff b” Do you know any real (in the sense of actual, not imaginary) Jewish people?

Thank you, eljay, for checking what I really did say, even though it is far less important than what JeffB would have liked me to have said. I’m glad the commas were in the right places.

But, to be fair to JB (he doesn’t deserve it, but that’s the point of fairness), I have used the phrase about Jews in general. Once was in the context of Jews in general being supporters of Israel, and once was in the context of a prayer by which Jews apparently encouraged God to smite the rest of us. (As if God needed any encouragement.)

And I made the same judgement about people who toss around accusations of anti-Semitism and the like.

But I am not surprised that JB cannot recognise that a political movement which has the results of Zionism makes its adherents into enemies of humanity. Disgusted, yes, but surprised, no.

|| RoHa: … Thank you, eljay, for checking what I really did say … I’m glad the commas were in the right places. … ||

I’m a bit embarrassed to admit that I didn’t verify comma placement. ;-)

|| … But, to be fair to JB … I have used the phrase about Jews in general. Once was in the context of Jews in general being supporters of Israel, and once was in the context of a prayer by which Jews apparently encouraged God to smite the rest of us. … ||

I saw those. Both were conditional – one on a Zionist assertion, the other on a Jewish prayer.

Maintaining an oppressive ethnocracy is the shared enterprise of the Jewish community? If so, that gives a pretty good reason for branding Jews in general as enemies of humanity. Did the rabbi not realise he (or maybe she) was promoting and justifying anti-Semitism?

and

“Problematic” seems a mild term for a prayer which makes Jews the enemies of humanity.

I was unable to find in your Comment archives a straightforward condemnation of Jews as the “enemies of all humanity”. Perhaps JeffB can provide a link to it.

RoHa,
I don’t regard those traditions and rituals as a burden . (Ok, sometimes things like maintaining a kosher home can be a bother…) Seriously , as I wrote, taking pride in your people’s heritage is normal and healthy and I regard doing my tiny part in preserving it as a privilege and a pleasure.
I certainly don’t see Jews who care about preserving our heritage as being “cut off from their fellow human beings”.

When someone says, You better assimilate or else, (or: “since you don’t assimilate it is a sign that you are separating yourself from the rest of the human species”) this is in essence different than a description of the inevitability of assimilation or the advisability of not resisting the inevitable, claiming that it is inevitably good. (in this case).

I don’t think that the question of identity is equivalent for every human on earth. History is too multi colored with varied experiences to expect all reactions to the past to be the same.

recently read phil roth commenting on the fact that he describes himself as an american writer rather than as an american jewish writer, and its basis was this: (i paraphrase), me and my friends growing up did not identify as jewish, we identified as americans and we wanted to be all american and for me now to accept the identity of jew diminishes how american we aspired to be.

which is a different experience than mine.

i grew up in america together with my four siblings who all grew up in america, raised to be modern orthodox. (my mother was born in europe and escaped to america with her parents and brother in 1941 as a child, my father was born in 1930’s st. louis to parents who emigrated from eastern europe in the 20’s. ) all my siblings remained orthodox, sometimes with slight detours, in the case of my brother he rebelled by embracing ultra orthodoxy. all my siblings moved to israel. they all have right wing views regarding the occupation. they have kids most of whom live in israel, most of whom are still orthodox. childless myself i think i feel closer to my nephews and nieces because of my childlessness.

to expect my struggle with identity to be identical with someone born on Long Island to twice a year Jews, who has one sibling, who married out and is childless and lives far away from any Jewish community, it is obviously absurd to think our identity formation journey has all that much in common.

my attitudes towards assimilation are based upon my identity formation journey. my reaction to someone telling me, “if you don’t assimilate it means you’re a racist,” is negative. When someone tells me, “assimilation is inevitable, just lean back and enjoy it” my reaction is slightly less negative.

right now it is sukkot. and i agree that the issue of the day for Jews is Israel and its mistreatment, harsh cruelty to the Palestinians. But it is impossible for the average Joe to face the issue day in and day out. So right now it is sukkot, where Jews keep the tradition of eating in the sukka going for one more year. it is clearly a minority of Jews in america that are still affected by the holiday, whereas in Israel, because of days off, it is an official holiday. (it also has caused a closure on the west bank, adding to the usual harshness an added holiday element.)

I have found the sukkot holiday to be quite pleasant. and though i do not do much to guide my life in a direction that promotes future sukkot observance, i bless it in my heart, exactly the opposite of scrooge’s “bah, humbug!” i think “nice to see it still around.” i realize that the politics of most of the people sitting in the sukka is far to the right of mine and the battle for the future is the battle to move israel politically in the opposite direction from the one they have in mind. and i realize that the custom of the sukka has nothing to do with pushing for that necessary battle, but i must still say, “nice to see it still around.”

|| Sibiriak: eljay: But the possibility that he may mean something doesn’t mean that he actually means it.

————————-

Exactly. He may mean something; then again, he may not–that’s what makes the deniability plausible . ||

Right, but my (poorly-stated) point was that I don’t believe that his use of conditionals was meant to create plausible deniability because I don’t believe that he believes that Jews collectively are the “enemies of all humanity”.

“I have found the sukkot holiday to be quite pleasant. and though i do not do much to guide my life in a direction that promotes future sukkot observance, i bless it in my heart, exactly the opposite of scrooge’s “bah, humbug!”

And every Sukkoth, the traditional megillah of Judaism vanquishing Ebenezer Scrooge and “Bah Humbug-ism” is celebrated.

Gee, if Mondo keeps on providing free-speech for Zionists to talk to each other, I may just re-think all my conclusions. Me, and how many others?
I commend Mondo on the risks it will take in support of free-speech.

What, exactly, constitutes Holocaust denial? Zionists use the term extremely loosely. It has come to be interpreted by Zionists as anything which diminishes the uniqueness of the Holocaust as the ultimate symbol of human suffering. Comparing the Holocaust to other examples of historical mass-murder, such as King Leopold’s killing of over 10 million Congolese Africans, or the US genocide of the native Americans, is considered a form of Holocaust denial insofar as it “denies” the special nature of the Holocaust. Norman Finkelstein, who lost almost his entire family in the Holocaust, is frequently referred to as a Holocaust denier because his book “The Holocaust Industry” tarnishes the special nature of Holocaust remembrance. And if one claims that the number of Jews killed was closer to 5 million than to 6 million, is that Holocaust denial? If so, then the foremost authority on the Holocaust Raul Hilberg is a Holocaust denier. The label “Holocaust denier” is a weapon like the label “anti-Semite” used to attack those whom the Zionists wish to attack and denigrate.

Keith,
I have no problem with comparison of the Holocaust to other genocides. I don’t think that that’s the issue, and neither is the question of 6 million or 5 million. Noone will ever know the precise number of victims .Hilberg estimated around 5.1 million, Nathan Eck (citing Jacob Robinson) estimates 5.8 million. Wolfgang Benz estimates between 5.3 and just over 6 million (cited by Friedlander). So the reliable estimates are between 5 and 6 million. Someone who finds Hilberg’s calculations convincing is not a denier.
Commenter “festus” referred to the “official story”, which is what provoked my comment.
I don’t know what “official story” means here. Does it mean “the truth”?
There are plenty of aspects of the Holocaust which are controversial and are discussed and debated by professional historians and interested non-professionals alike. The deniers, like Zundel, Faurisson, Leuchter, Irving , the IHR, and such , deny the basic facts, deny that the Holocaust occured or deny central features such as the gas chambers. They’re outside legitimate historical discussions. They’re anti-semitic propagandists.

“Keith” believe me, I have followed that conversation very closely. I don’t know that I saw any “Holocaust denial” as such.
But what I did see was a much greater tendency to question whether the Jews could be that easily pushed around and rounded up.
You would think the Zionists would be gratified by this, but they are never satisfied.

JON S- “I have no problem with comparison of the Holocaust to other genocides. I don’t think that that’s the issue, and neither is the question of 6 million or 5 million.”

The question was “What exactly constitutes Holocaust denial?” The label is applied loosely by those who have the power to establish definitions, yet the implication is quite specific. I am not overly concerned with what you claim you believe regarding Holocaust denial, rather I am concerned with Zionist propagandists using the label to falsely denigrate someone. For example, I mentioned Norman Finkelstein, did I not? How could anyone call Finkelstein a Holocaust denier? Easy. Lies that work are utilized. A quote from ADL Regional Director David Friedman to illustrate.

“We are shocked and troubled that on November 18, 2002, Georgetown University’s Center for Contemporary Arab Studies Department, Justice and Peace Center, and the Young Arab Leadership Association (YALA) sponsored a lecture by a known Holocaust denier and anti-Israel propagandist, Norman Finkelstein.” (David Friedman, ADL Regional Director) http://normanfinkelstein.com/2006/10/13/how-the-adl-fights-anti-semitism/

At the mention of the Japanese attack on Pearl Harbor, we have of late the book: “Operation Snow”, which rather complicates the simplicity of the narrative of that dastardly sneak attack, linking it to Russian spies in the White House, working to foment a war with Japan to protect Russia’s eastern front:

“When will the non-Jewish world see that the true, the coherent, the authentic Jewish identity can only be developed and adhered to in an environment of anti-semitism, persecution, segregation and genocide?”

Sorry if it seems like I`m indulging in semantics but are you pleading for more anti -semitic antics ?

May I suggest you turn off your TV? It’s all agenda-driven, designed to make you nuts. Focus on the REAL issues, the ones that matter to YOU! Let other people worry about things that matter to them, and let others go nuts watching the MSM, you’ll emerge the victor.

In terms of sheer numbers, the flower of American Jewish culture was in the early part of the 20th century, when the traditions were familiar and the language was spoken without forethought naturally.

True. But those traditions are Russian traditions, Polish traditions… Some could survive here but most couldn’t. Community law enforcement made sense in Russia. It made sense in ethnic ghettos here when the law was mostly about keeping the workers in line not resolving their internal squabbles. Today we have good access to American law enforcement. What would preserving those traditions even look like? In 2017 how would the Jewish community (which is not even discipline a Jewish criminal more effectively than the state without committing acts that are likely to get that community in serious trouble? Most of our traditions assume you have a Jewish neighborhood, most American Jews don’t. Etc…

We could create symbolic reenactments of the tradition, but we can’t have the tradition.

That full flowering birthed a generation or two during which intra Jewish marriages dominated, creating a culture that was definable and easily findable by social scientists. We are now in a stage after that with out marriage being the rule rather than the exception. .

True. But 2/3rds of the kids are being raised Jewish. Intermarriage is effectively becoming a form of proselytization. Hard to know how this plays out, but it could result in a growing Jewish community.

It is this mass movement away from Jewish traditions texts and languages that I mourn.
But weiter, as pronounced in yiddish, viter, onward further, what are the future facts.
There are many flowering of small groups who ponder what jew will mean in the future, particularly in america, these are small groups, not a mass movement.

I’ll give my prediction. 2100 world Jewry looks like:
70% Israeli
15% people with strong ties to Israel (married to an Israeli, child of an Israeli, has Israeli children, owns home in Israel)
15% no strong ties to Israel

The world Jewish community in 2100 looks mostly like an expat community. Judaism is defined by the Israeli state church. The American Jewish establishment no longer feels any particular need to stay close to tradition because there is a huge state church for the offshoots to rotate around. So American Judaism becomes more diverse, more experimental and more focused on satisfying the needs of the immediate community not a desperate fight for preservation in a sea of Christianity. We get to have the comfortable orthopraxy that Catholic Americans do because we like them have an orthodox state church defining the core.

Jews love create religious cults and sects. With a strong center this becomes less threatening and no one particular needs to draw strong boundaries. We can re-engage with our wealth of secondary literature. The fight with orthodoxy is now mute, the liberals have in a meaningful sense definitely lost the battle to define Jewish. So we have a Judaism centered on the Israeli state church but where that 15% loosely affiliated comfortable find expression in: Kabbalah centers, Jewish / Buddhist hybrids, Jewish humanism, Messianic Judaism… So something like the new age movement being the lived Judaism with a solid orthodoxy being able to perform religious functions like marriages. Very much like Europe. Or to use another analogy what we had in Alexandria before the first Roman-Jewish war.

if I were to travel to the future in 50 years, in American big cities I would seek out the modern orthodox, a group that will shrink in size, but should persist,

Good news for you. It is growing not shrinking. High birthrate, collapse of Conservative Judaism and refugees from Hasidic movements and immigration from Israel have reversed the trend. It is however becoming more theologically diverse.

Sorry don’t see Israel as unstable. To think this through go down a list of countries in the world and has them on “better or worse shape than Israel”. I think you’ll find under 20% in the better shape box.

Ultra Orthodox population growing at 3x rate of secular Jeff. Does the World need 3 million shatnez inspectors? Mooser should know. He is in touch with Hiram J Zuckerman, CEO of Shatnezworld. How will Israel feed itself. ? How will the hatred of the sabras mutate over the next 30 years? Pouring petrol down the throat of a Palestinian was the high point in 2014.

Yep and if Jews didn’t have centuries of history of secularization in multiple waves I’d see that as an unfixable problem. Israel will obviously need to fix that problem and the signs are that the UO population is getting ready for a wave of secularization. Lots of fraying along the edges on its one. Then of course they can be pushed. In the last Knesset we had bills for things like increasing workforce participation and military service. Netanyahu reversed this since he needed UTJ and Shas. But the women’s workforce participation is skyrocketing which is possibly even more damaging. The too many UO isn’t permanent.

Yeah, the lobby representing sex-discrimination and harassment lawyers.
Just forget it, it doesn’t work any better than saying “Lady I’m from the F.B.I.” unless you are in Israel, where submission to shatnez inspection is required by law.

“Shatnez refers to a mysterious prohibition in the Torah, regarding the wearing of garments made of different kinds of threads.” “Jon s”

“Mysterious”? Please, you know damn well what they are about, and how the purity of textiles relate to ” the laws of family purity”.
Scratchy blankets are usually not considered among the aphrodisiacs.

JEFFB- “True. But those traditions are Russian traditions, Polish traditions…”

True enough, but let us take it a step farther. They are the traditions of Polish and Russian Jews intended to maintain Jewish tribal cohesion and separation from the surrounding Gentile community in a premodern political economy where Jews functioned as service nomads (Slezkine). In a modern political economy, this sharp delineation and obvious tribalism would be problematic, hence, assimilation requires abandoning strict tribalism. Zionism functions to maintain Jewish identity as a form of kinship which unites the various strands of Jews into a form of manufactured kinship. Modern American Jewish “traditions” are usually nominal in nature serving primarily to establish Jewishness. For kinship to provide de facto nepotistic advantage, Jewish identity must be made visible to other Jews, but not obvious to Gentiles. Keeping track of who are Jews of influence is a primary activity of Jewish organizations.

JEFFB- “True. But 2/3rds of the kids are being raised Jewish. Intermarriage is effectively becoming a form of proselytization.”

Indeed, and an interesting phenomenon. There is the additional phenomenon of the spouse of a Jew being accepted within the group as a temporary Jew by marriage, a Jew-in-law so to speak, entitled to partake in the joys of kinship on a provisional basis. Jewishness becoming a form of birthright guild to advance the fortunes of its members through mutual support. Anti-Zionist Jews are usually middle class Jewish reformers who wish to eliminate the centrality of Israel and Zionism to the Jewish identity due to negative effect Israeli actions may have on Jewish identity. Most anti-Zionist Jews seem less commited to anti-imperialism, support for empire consistent with success. Jewish Zionist fat-cats are diehard Israeli supporters who see such support as critical to their power-seeking agenda.

As for the future, we are at the end of an era and facing existential threats to the survival of the species. We will be facing extreme turbulence in the near future and I am filled with dark foreboding.

True enough, but let us take it a step farther. They are the traditions of Polish and Russian Jews intended to maintain Jewish tribal cohesion and separation from the surrounding Gentile community in a premodern political economy where Jews functioned as service nomads (Slezkine).

1/2 agree. For example I think Jewish humor works that way. Many of them are just eastern european traditions. Gefilte fish for example is a popular Polish Catholic dish (karp po żydowsku = Jewish carp). Same with bagels. Were we separating or just creating products?

In a modern political economy, this sharp delineation and obvious tribalism would be problematic, hence, assimilation requires abandoning strict tribalism.

Agree. That was my point to Yonah.

Zionism functions to maintain Jewish identity as a form of kinship which unites the various strands of Jews into a form of manufactured kinship. Modern American Jewish “traditions” are usually nominal in nature serving primarily to establish Jewishness. For kinship to provide de facto nepotistic advantage, Jewish identity must be made visible to other Jews, but not obvious to Gentiles. Keeping track of who are Jews of influence is a primary activity of Jewish organizations.

Not sure about kinship advantage stuff and Zionism. I see much more of that in my grandparent’s generation. I see more of that with Mormons and South Asians than Jews. I think Jews have reached the point where Zionism is a collective interest, not an individual one.

JEFFB- “True. But 2/3rds of the kids are being raised Jewish. Intermarriage is effectively becoming a form of proselytization.”

Indeed, and an interesting phenomenon. There is the additional phenomenon of the spouse of a Jew being accepted within the group as a temporary Jew by marriage, a Jew-in-law so to speak, entitled to partake in the joys of kinship on a provisional basis. Jewishness becoming a form of birthright guild to advance the fortunes of its members through mutual support.

I would agree.

Anti-Zionist Jews are usually middle class Jewish reformers who wish to eliminate the centrality of Israel and Zionism to the Jewish identity due to negative effect Israeli actions may have on Jewish identity.

Agree with revisions here. JVP is simply destructive to Jewish identity and so hostile to the community that I have trouble considering them reformers. Ultimately they are standing against their people in solidarity with an enemy. That’s not reform, that’s opposition. I’d say your characterization is more the case with J-Street, INN, Reform Jewish humanism…. In other words you have to go slightly to the right. Perhaps non-Zionist and liberal-Zionist.

A desire to see an ethical Israel I think unifies Jews it doesn’t divide them. A desire to see Israel destroyed is a fringe position that alienates one completely from the community. If my brother has a drinking problem as part of the family I want to see him get sober. If I talk of wanting to see him die in a car crash that’s not strengthening family bonds.

Most anti-Zionist Jews seem less commited to anti-imperialism, support for empire consistent with success.

Not sure what that means. I agree many of them don’t have a firm anti-imperialist frame beyond what most leftists do but I’m not sure that means much.

Jewish Zionist fat-cats are diehard Israeli supporters who see such support as critical to their power-seeking agenda.

I’m not sure I’d agree. You seek power to do stuff with it. To quote George Bush you don’t build up political capital to put in the cupboard you build it up to spend it. I think most Jewish Zionist fat cats are actual Zionist. They want Israel intrinsically not as part of a scheme.

Many? Jeez, and to think I took your comment seriously! Yiddish and Kosher food are a shared tradition? Yuri Slezkine provides historical perspective.

“The relations between the majority of Pale Jews and their mostly rural customers followed the usual pattern of Mercurian-Apollonian coexistence. Each side saw the other as unclean, opaque, dangerous, contemptible, and ultimately irrelevant to the communal past and future salvation. Social contact was limited to commercial and bureaucratic encounters. Non-Jews almost never spoke Yiddish, and very few Jews spoke the languages of their Ukrainian, Lithuanian, Latvian, Moldovan, or Belorussian neighbors beyond “the minimum of words which were absolutely necessary in order to transact business.” (p106, “The Jewish Century,” Yuri Slezkine)

JEFFB- ” I see more of that with Mormons and South Asians than Jews. I think Jews have reached the point where Zionism is a collective interest, not an individual one.”

No doubt that is why there are so many Mormans and South Asians on Wall Street and in the media, etc. Yes, Zionism is a power-seeking collective which benefits the group as a whole and the individual Zionist elite as well.

JEFFB- “Ultimately they are standing against their people in solidarity with an enemy.”

Their people? The downtrodden, victimized Palestinians their enemy? I see that you are an Israel uber alles kind of guy.

JEFFB- “You seek power to do stuff with it.”

And for those sociopaths obsessed with power, what they do with it is to seek more power. There never is enough to satisfy the fat-cats. And what, exactly, is the “stuff” the American empire is doing with its global power except smashing Third World countries and imposing neoliberalism on a suffering world? For the elites, the lust for power is insatiable. Power for the sake of power. And any social engineering they engage in is ultimately to their own benefit, to increase their power.

In Germany I have seen served gefüllter Fisch mit Gemüse nach jüdischer Art, gefüllter Fisch mit Gemüse nach italienischer Art, and gefüllter Fisch mit Gemüse nach griechischer Art, all being more or less the same.

As a Polish dish it is very much a Christmas dish, and Christmas Carp may be sliced or ground as is the case of karp po żydowsku.

The fixation with eating carp (not my favorite fish) is also found in Slovakia.

Here is a Polish recipe for Jewish Carp which clearly is not any form of chopped gefüllter Fisch or gefilte fish.

Jewish carp

1 carp (1.5 kg)

800 g of onions

1 carrot

1 parsley

½ of celery

1 spoonful of butter

1 bay leaf

4 seeds of pepper

4 seeds of allspice

salt

Dress the fish, remove scales, cut it open and remove inner organs. Rinse thoroughly, cut into slices, sprinkle with salt and leave for 30 minutes. Peel vegetables, rinse with water and dice onions. Cover vegetables and onion with 1 litre of water, add fish head and tail, bay leaf, allspice and pepper seeds. Cook for 30 minutes. Add slices of fish and cook for another 30 minutes. Put slices of cooked fish on a platter. Pressing hard, strain broth and pour it over slices of carp. Serve hot with boiled potatoes or chill and serve cold with challah.

Note that challah is actually the pagan braided bread offering to the goddess or witch Frau Holle.

Ground Christmas carp became a popular dish for meatless Friday among Polish Catholics.

Fish is of course an ancient symbol of Christ and the Greek word for fish is treated as an the initials of Jesus Christ God and Savior.

Obviously, Polish Jews were completely descended from local converts to Judaism, and the Rabbis had to create reasons why their folk culture, which was wholly pagan or (obsolete) Christian was really Jewish.

For example the Rabbis spread the story that Jews ate ground fish on Friday not out of respect for Jesus but in order to avoid selecting out fish bones — an action which counts as the work of selection.

As the Christian or pagan practice became obsolete, the practice, which was questionably Jewish, became wholly Jewish.

Sukkot always makes me laugh. The soldiers who run Gaza remember when the Jews were in the wilderness without shelter because of a cruel Pharaoh . You could not make it up. Jewish power and its nonsense.

“Imagine how mortified the ancient Judeans must be to know what putzes came after them.”

Wait til they see me dressed as one of “yonah’s” “Hebrew Warriors” for Halloween, in a placketed leather skirt and combat sandals laced to the knee. Talk about your perfect calves!
I’m no putz, nosirree! I’m gonna live to be a hundred and three!

Many? Jeez, and to think I took your comment seriously! Yiddish and Kosher food are a shared tradition? Yuri Slezkine provides historical perspective.

Sorry. Know too many Orthodox Christians who eat these foods just don’t know the Jewish names. I think that book is a bit misleading about the degree of separation.

JEFFB- ” I see more of that with Mormons and South Asians than Jews. I think Jews have reached the point where Zionism is a collective interest, not an individual one.”

No doubt that is why there are so many Mormans and South Asians on Wall Street

First off not everyone is in the same fields. 70 years ago fields like tailoring on the east coast were Jewish dominated while today there very few. That being said. Have you ever been to Wall Street banks and brokerages? There are way more South Asians than Jews at this point. It isn’t even close. Incidentally Hindus beat Jews for percentages making over $100k / yr.

As for Mormons they are rather close to Jews in wealth and influence. There are 6 Mormon senators and 8 Jews. Mormons have more dentists, more programmers, etc.. Mormons are much bigger than Jews in small home industries.

JEFFB- “Ultimately they are standing against their people in solidarity with an enemy.”
Their people?

Yes their people.

The downtrodden, victimized Palestinians their enemy? I see that you are an Israel uber alles kind of guy.

I feel bad for the Palestinians. I don’t want to victimize them or crush them. That being said. Yeah they are. They are the ones at the heart of Israel’s acceptance problem. They refuse to be a constructive part of Israel. And at the same time they refuse to live in peace separately. The trouble with the Labor party is not about stuff British Jews are doing that is making Corbyn mad it is the Palestinians that are driving him into a conflict with British Jews.

They seem intent on reliving our mistakes rather than learning from them.

JEFFB- “You seek power to do stuff with it.”

And for those sociopaths obsessed with power, what they do with it is to seek more power.

Well what the Jews are doing with it is securing a tiny corner of the globe as a prosperous small country.

There never is enough to satisfy the fat-cats. And what, exactly, is the “stuff” the American empire
is doing with its global power except smashing Third World countries and imposing neoliberalism on a suffering world?

The American empire is a Christian thing. As for what are they doing with it:
1) Providing massive advances in pharmacology.
2) Providing a technological infrastructure that’s liberated communication
3) revolutionized farming and ended hunger globally
4) revolutionized energy extraction technologies and increased energy utilization per person my orders of magnitude

Create a prosperous productive world. There is room to complain but GDP per capita makes up for just about everything else. That is the single most important number as a scale for what is possible to achieve human happiness.

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