But at the same time, there are more talented players competing in 25m, more casuals in 10m.
All I did was make a suggestion, he got offended because he realizes he isn't as "top-tiered" as he thought he was.

But at the same time, there are more talented players competing in 25m, more casuals in 10m.
All I did was make a suggestion, he got offended because he realizes he isn't as "top-tiered" as he thought he was.

Just one last reply to you, because you have clearly stated with your answers that you do not have a clue at all, I'm very sorry.
If you compare normal with normal, it does not make sense at all, because the only "normal id" we did was the first week in blue gear and trying out tactics. DPS on normal does not count, the same is true for LFR, because there are less mechanics and shorter boss durations and many more things. On normal as a DPS, you can easily ignore everything and just nuke the boss, which gives you a typical patchwerk fight, where the outcome should be the same as in simcraft, unless you fuck up your rotation (what you apparently do on a frequent basis, looking at your parses).

On heroics, on the other hand, DPS is important, because it is necessary to perform a maximum on possible DPS while still not failing mechanics and tactics.
And even there, your DPS can vary much depending on what responsibilities you have in a raid, usually the less you must do, the more DPS you can do. So why don't you give these things a few thoughs, try to see where and why you went wrong. If you don't have any logs where you are in world (let's say) top20 (for any mage specc) on a heroic kill, or even world 100, I must assume that you are much worse by a large margin than any of our mages.

But, I don't want this thread to derange much more into that topic, I don't think that fearist will still argue, so why not going back to the original topic, which would by myself stating that Mages lack some special "gimmicks" to be useful in endgame-raiding again.

But at the same time, there are more talented players competing in 25m, more casuals in 10m.
All I did was make a suggestion, he got offended because he realizes he isn't as "top-tiered" as he thought he was.

Ye but there is A LOT of people in EU side at least that are really really competitive and just wanna raid 10 mans cause it can be done among friends and the spirit of the raid is more social.

Just one last reply to you, because you have clearly stated with your answers that you do not have a clue at all, I'm very sorry.
If you compare normal with normal, it does not make sense at all, because the only "normal id" we did was the first week in blue gear and trying out tactics. DPS on normal does not count, the same is true for LFR, because there are less mechanics and shorter boss durations and many more things. On normal as a DPS, you can easily ignore everything and just nuke the boss, which gives you a typical patchwerk fight, where the outcome should be the same as in simcraft, unless you fuck up your rotation (what you apparently do on a frequent basis, looking at your parses).

On heroics, on the other hand, DPS is important, because it is necessary to perform a maximum on possible DPS while still not failing mechanics and tactics.
And even there, your DPS can vary much depending on what responsibilities you have in a raid, usually the less you must do, the more DPS you can do. So why don't you give these things a few thoughs, try to see where and why you went wrong. If you don't have any logs where you are in world (let's say) top20 (for any mage specc) on a heroic kill, or even world 100, I must assume that you are much worse by a large margin than any of our mages.

But, I don't want this thread to derange much more into that topic, I don't think that fearist will still argue, so why not going back to the original topic, which would by myself stating that Mages lack some special "gimmicks" to be useful in endgame-raiding again.

There was obviously more than 1 week of normal modes in the link I posted, you got ranked 6 when not a lot of 10m guilds got Will downed ( just look at the graph), and I obviously don't mess up my rotation very much since I am parsing higher on an average basis. At this point it is obvious you are grabbing at straws, I laid down the facts in those links, and you choose to ignore them because well, it hurts for you to know that you're average joe in a cobra-kai-dojo.

Multidotting - We are not built as multi-dotters, but our dots are far from useless. Any mage spec can take Nether Tempest. It is considerable damage on fights like Will of the Emperor with spread out targets. Fire cleave dmg especially with glyphed Living Bomb is amazing. Frozen Orb & glyphed Ice Lance give Frost good cleave.

Self-Healing - Any mage can glyph Evocation to give Rune of Power, Invocation & normal Evocation passive healing. Any mage can talent Cold Snap for an instant 30% heal, which makes it ideal for alternating with Ice Block for even more damage mitigation. Any mage can talent Ice Barrier or Temporal Shield, and then use them proactively. Temporal Shield with Incanter's Ward has amazing synergy on certain fights. I get a lot of use out of my racial Gift of the Naaru.

Control - Any mage can take Frost Bomb for a ranged AoE slow, or use Flamestrike for its blast wave effect at range. Any mage can take Ice Ward and use it on a tank for adds that can be frozen in place. Frostbolt slows; glyphed Frostfire Bolt slows. Arcane has Slow and can glyph it as a passive effect on Arcane Blast.

Mobility - The lvl 90 SP talents, while irritating in the open world and 5mans, are not as crippling in raids as I first imagined. They just require smart gameplay. Also, you can Scorch/refresh dots while moving, or only move during GCDs.

It would be silly to expect one class to be the strongest at all of these things. Are mages in a bad place as far as they go? Far, far from it.

There was obviously more than 1 week of normal modes in the link I posted, you got ranked 6 when not a lot of 10m guilds got Will downed ( just look at the graph), and I obviously don't mess up my rotation very much since I am parsing higher on an average basis. At this point it is obvious you are grabbing at straws, I laid down the facts in those links, and you choose to ignore them because well, it hurts for you to know that you're average joe in a cobra-kai-dojo.

Wow you actually did reply without hesitation and are still wrong.
World rank 6 is still up-to-date. You do not have any parses that prove that you can DPS on heroic encounters. I'm not grapping at straws, it just appears that your perception is so different that I can't even beat some understanding into your head with a giant hammer apparently. So why don't you just consider yourself one of the good "boys" and just leave it be?
There are enough logs linked that show that our mages do quite good (as having some placement in top100 and even top10 parses from heroic encounters), while you have nothing of that sort to compare. Instead, the best you ever did was pull crap DPS in LFR and normal (not even scoring a ranking in the top 200 parses in normal) and now suggesting that obviously better mages do something wrong. I really don't get it.

I don't think this OP is valid at all.

Multidotting - We are not built as multi-dotters, but our dots are far from useless. Any mage spec can take Nether Tempest. It is considerable damage on fights like Will of the Emperor with spread out targets. Fire cleave dmg especially with glyphed Living Bomb is amazing. Frozen Orb & glyphed Ice Lance give Frost good cleave.

Self-Healing - Any mage can glyph Evocation to give Rune of Power, Invocation & normal Evocation passive healing. Any mage can talent Cold Snap for an instant 30% heal, which makes it ideal for alternating with Ice Block for even more damage mitigation. Any mage can talent Ice Barrier or Temporal Shield, and then use them proactively. Temporal Shield with Incanter's Ward has amazing synergy on certain fights. I get a lot of use out of my racial Gift of the Naaru.

Control - Any mage can take Frost Bomb for a ranged AoE slow, or use Flamestrike for its blast wave effect at range. Any mage can take Ice Ward and use it on a tank for adds that can be frozen in place. Frostbolt slows; glyphed Frostfire Bolt slows. Arcane has Slow and can glyph it as a passive effect on Arcane Blast.

Mobility - The lvl 90 SP talents, while irritating in the open world and 5mans, are not as crippling in raids as I first imagined. They just requires smart gameplay. Also, you can Scorch/refresh dots while moving, or only move during GCDs.

It would be silly to expect one class to be the strongest at all of these things. Are mages in a bad place as far as they go? Far, far from it.

This are of course examples of what we have, and I agree with you. BUT (what is the point of this thread), nothing of these things make the Mage irreplaceable or particulary good.
If you need (for a certain encounter), a class which needs to heal themselfs, your far better of with a hybrid (for exemple going down by gara'jal into spirit world without a healer, because he has doll/debuff)
If you need multi dotting, you take a moonkin/affi lock/shadow, who do at least 20% more multi-dot DPS than a mage will ever do with his nether tempest or whatever.
If you need to kite/control a lot of adds, a frost Dk oder Hunter is infinitly better than a mage.

The only things, where mages do something like "excell" right now, is when there is a main target and two off targets together and the (fire!) mage can spread his dmg. But there are also combat rogues and other melees cleaving quite good.
Also frost is ok when there are a lot of targets for frostbomb + frostorb combo, but those targets need to die in <10s or else other classes are far better (demo locks)

Wow you actually did reply without hesitation and are still wrong.
World rank 6 is still up-to-date. You do not have any parses that prove that you can DPS on heroic encounters. I'm not grapping at straws, it just appears that your perception is so different that I can't even beat some understanding into your head with a giant hammer apparently. So why don't you just consider yourself one of the good "boys" and just leave it be?
There are enough logs linked that show that our mages do quite good (as having some placement in top100 and even top10 parses from heroic encounters), while you have nothing of that sort to compare. Instead, the best you ever did was pull crap DPS in LFR and normal (not even scoring a ranking in the top 200 parses in normal) and now suggesting that obviously better mages do something wrong. I really don't get it.

This are of course examples of what we have, and I agree with you. BUT (what is the point of this thread), nothing of these things make the Mage irreplaceable or particulary good.
If you need (for a certain encounter), a class which needs to heal themselfs, your far better of with a hybrid (for exemple going down by gara'jal into spirit world without a healer, because he has doll/debuff)
If you need multi dotting, you take a moonkin/affi lock/shadow, who do at least 20% more multi-dot DPS than a mage will ever do with his nether tempest or whatever.
If you need to kite/control a lot of adds, a frost Dk oder Hunter is infinitly better than a mage.

The only things, where mages do something like "excell" right now, is when there is a main target and two off targets together and the (fire!) mage can spread his dmg. But there are also combat rogues and other melees cleaving quite good.
Also frost is ok when there are a lot of targets for frostbomb + frostorb combo, but those targets need to die in <10s or else other classes are far better (demo locks)

lol are you dumb? I scored a US 1st in normal feng, and a top 50 on heroic stone guards + countless others. you honestly do not know how to read parses, no wonder you don't know how to play your class.

There are plenty of 2-3 target fights in this tier though.
Stone Guards is the perfect number of targets for Frost or Fire to cleave.
Spirit Kings heroic has two targets wandering around for several portions of the fight.
Garalon's legs are within distance for spreading Combustion onto the body.
Amber Shaper will often have the boss sat next to the MC'ed player you need to DPS.

We are good at 1-3 target fights and there's no particular dearth of those!

The direction this game is moving, is aiming to NOT make certain classes/specs irreplaceable or significantly better than the others. (The developers' success at this is always going to be debated.) This balancing act is particularly nice for 10man raiding where slot choices are limited. I think mages have been spoiled in the past for having the edge over many other classes. Some of the other dps classes may have been overtuned in specific areas, but I am not worried about gimping my raids' chance of success on any given encounter.

It's true that in the past Mages had crazy utilities compared to most other classes, something that made the game almost unfair for the others. Nowdays most classes have enough utilities to compete with each other. Yes I believe that right now Mages have some problematic spots here and there. For example the lack of good aoe (10 targets+) in all three speccs (not talking about our crazy cleaves ofc) , Arcane as a whole and his bad synergy with ... everything, the last talent tier etc etc. We may be lacking healing but we can soak alot of damage in a raid if we play correctly. I am almost always last on damage taken in almost every fight and that's not because the rest of the grp don't know to play but because Mages have many tricks to avoid damage better than anyone while at the same time they do crazy dps in most situations. Does that make us competitive with the rest? Yes. Does that make a single mage competitive? Depends on the player. If we play our cards correctly we can do the same, if not more, as any other class in the game.

*That ofc doesn't change the fact that I also believe Mages are not that unique as a class anymore. But this is mostly a QoL conversation about our identity which is not the point of this thread.

lol are you dumb? I scored a US 1st in normal feng, and a top 50 on heroic stone guards + countless others. you honestly do not know how to read parses, no wonder you don't know how to play your class.

You really shouldn't be name calling when your damage is pretty mediocre, and honestly nothing impressive.

As for the main post in this thread, 10 mans become significantly easier the more utility/buffs/debuffs brought since they are tuned to be done without them and because of that I imagine 10 man mage representation would be diminished. In 25 however, when you can afford to maximize the raid based purely on dps, because all the utilities are already covered, we're very valuable.

You're right, world 2nd and US 1st is nothing impressive. sorry, my bad, next time i do betta, i beat asians, i sorry mastah.

All I see is a heroic level player beating up on normal level content.

Wrote a long thoughtful post, mmo champ had a server error... should of copy/pasted. :|

New abridged version:
The only spell unique to mage (that I can think of) is spellsteal (not useful in raids this xpac yet, right?). Giving us something as unique as void swap (not that, nothing like that, just something distinct) might fix our redundancy? Redundancy aside, we are averagely parsing well*. I agree with Jessminda in that we have been spoiled for a long time; however, I do think most of the specs are fairly homogeneous, and that it would be great if they pushed the distinction of fire(dot), frost(control), and arcane(burst) beyond their current distinction which primarily is realistic potential for damage.

i didn't read all of that but i just like to blow stuff up as fire, and im pretty good at it

agreed, I did read it though, and it was a good post, missing a few things like temporal shield, alter time and invocation for utilities that help healers, but im by no means trolling...A mage was my first char and I was pretty hardcore through wrath and cata, mostly as arcane until I got bored, fire is fun and if you can pull it off and time it well the dot spread can more than make up for multi dotting hybrids (in my opinion anyway)...my pants get a little tight when i hear that combustion sound and my screen fills up with numbers

Regarding current PVE (I retired from hardcore progression in DS so not sure of numbers right now) I can see the posters point...Mages have nothing that makes them unique or handy and that is a real shame, but it could be worse, they could of left that 3 second CD on pyroblast

I guess you have no idea what you are talking about. When you do 10k more dps as frostmage than everyone else, than it clearly states that all DPS in your raid are shit. So maybe just stfu if you have no idea what you are talking about.

Relax bro, frost pve dps is viable now. Maybe he's good at his class, and makes sure to sim and forge/gem/chant and gear properly.

I've heard rogues talking about "I get benched because I bring no utility" as well. As a fire mage I pop 10-20k more dps than our other DPS. We're a pure dps class. We kill stuff. We do it well. If you wipe on elegon enrage timer because of a lack of DPS then who cares about a lack of utility?