Now, contrast this with one of the places where I work: all people of conscience, including atheists and agnostics, are a protected class, and employees are invited to attend panel discussions by other employees about their belief systems (including atheism and agnosticism, as well as Hinduism, Buddhism, Christianity, etc.). Participation in these discussions is optional, and meant to spread tolerance for diverse points of view. Otherwise, we don't get into it, and I don't care if someone wears a cross on a necklace.

I don't agree with the British system of banishing all religious references from the workplace, but let's face it: the workplace is a place one has to be. Likewise, when a gentleman came up to my reference desk and asked for a book by "a preacher named Joel somebody" I was able to direct him to Joel Osteen's books. I loathe Osteen's message, but it's not my job to say so; it's my job to give the patron the information he/she wants.

So, perhaps instead of making these fly-by-night videos, the Disco Boys could try to cough up some real evidence that would be included in the mainstream books and DVDs that vendors sell to libraries, so that patrons could know about and ask for them instead of the Disco 'Tute needing other Disco minions to hawk these largely unknown works at the workplace? But of course, that's too close to publishing scholarly papers in the Great Darwinian Conspiratorial Hegemony, no? And, of course, that would involve being ethical enough to not use your workplace as a soapbox for your personal beliefs.

--------------Which came first: the shimmy, or the hip?

AtBC Poet Laureate

"I happen to think that this prerequisite criterion of empirical evidence is itself not empirical." - Clive

Now, contrast this with one of the places where I work: all people of conscience, including atheists and agnostics, are a protected class, and employees are invited to attend panel discussions by other employees about their belief systems (including atheism and agnosticism, as well as Hinduism, Buddhism, Christianity, etc.). Participation in these discussions is optional, and meant to spread tolerance for diverse points of view. Otherwise, we don't get into it, and I don't care if someone wears a cross on a necklace.

I don't agree with the British system of banishing all religious references from the workplace, but let's face it: the workplace is a place one has to be. Likewise, when a gentleman came up to my reference desk and asked for a book by "a preacher named Joel somebody" I was able to direct him to Joel Osteen's books. I loathe Osteen's message, but it's not my job to say so; it's my job to give the patron the information he/she wants.

So, perhaps instead of making these fly-by-night videos, the Disco Boys could try to cough up some real evidence that would be included in the mainstream books and DVDs that vendors sell to libraries, so that patrons could know about and ask for them instead of the Disco 'Tute needing other Disco minions to hawk these largely unknown works at the workplace? But of course, that's too close to publishing scholarly papers in the Great Darwinian Conspiratorial Hegemony, no? And, of course, that would involve being ethical enough to not use your workplace as a soapbox for your personal beliefs.

But that's not how the religious... I mean... ID proponents disseminate information.

If everyone had to go do their own research about religion... I mean... ID, then no one would probably bother. And those that did would get the wrong idea because of all the contradictions and lies and utterly useless things in religion... I mean... ID.

So, the message MUST be presented in an evangelical... I mean... educational way. That's the proper method for disseminating information. No questions, no comments, no backtalk, just preaching... I mean... lecturing.

That's the way that these people actually think. They literally can't understand things like learning. They look stuff up to make arguments (or look for quotemines or things that they can obfuscate or lie about), but not to actually learn. Their faith... I mean... logical hypotheses just can't stand up to that level of thinking. And they all know it. At least the pastors... I mean... ID leadership (many of whom also went to seminary) also know it.

I'm reading a book about how all the seminary schools are teaching the actual history of the bible and yet, these pastors they are churning out never mention it in the pulpit. They are basically lying to their entire congregation.

--------------Ignored by those who can't provide evidence for their claims.

I'm reading a book about how all the seminary schools are teaching the actual history of the bible and yet, these pastors they are churning out never mention it in the pulpit. They are basically lying to their entire congregation.

Coppedge stated that he is a board member of Illustra Media, the company that produced two DVD documetaries that were submitted into evidence. The films were entitled, "Unlocking the Mysteries of Life," and "The Privileged Planet."

When asked if the DVDs contain a religious message, Coppedge testified that, "No, they do not."

Very interesting thread, I have not been here much lately but I always enjoy my visits.

First, on topic, the Coppedge matter. Egregious as his behavior in the work environment was, this whole lawsuit sounds like a put up job to a)garner publicity for the 'academic freedom' ploy, and b) cast aspersions on JPL. I hope he gets slapped down hard.

On the question of engineering v. science, it is partly just a cultural difference. Engineers are expected to have conventional solutions to a wide range of problems. Scientists on the other hand generally are faced with a wide range of problems for which there are no solutions and their charge is to discover some. When you are doing good science, you really are in a uncertain situation, it takes a certain kind of calm and self-assurance to cope with that uncertainty for years and years. I don't think that kind of environment appeals to the religious. They seem to have a kind of fetish about certainty. So perhaps it is natural that the religious gravitate towards engineering instead of science. There are no doubt plenty of brilliant engineers who are confronted with similar difficulties to those of science when developing hardware or software for truly novel applications and uses. Like the engineers who developed the four computer decision system for the avionics of the shuttle. For the time and the technology it was a brilliant piece of work.

Since I kind of have a foot in both puddles, I have a certain empathy for all parties. I have known a few scientists who were good enough at what they did but who were pretty dogmatic in other respects. Perhaps the distinguishing factor is more like a kind of natural selection. There are far fewer niches for scientists than there are for engineers. And those niches are a much tighter fit. There are plenty of jobs for engineers without a PhD. but not many for scientists. So the winnowing process is both brutal and highly selective.

If you think about it for a while it is a little amazing that JPL tolerated this guy's extracurricular activities for as long as they did. In his capacity as a sysadmin he was in an ideal position to totally fuck up the mission, and if he was clever about it, get away scot free while serving up a truck load of scorn and derision to those elite scientists. He certainly didn't seem to shy away from deriding the work that the mission produced in as public a way as possible. Perhaps he, and his collaborators, calculated that he could do more damage to science based policy and decisions by letting the mission play out and just fanatically contradicting every result published with his idiotic rants about A.S.S.

Or perhaps they just weren't clever enough to figure out a way to cover their tracks if they did overt sabotage.

Coppedge stated that he is a board member of Illustra Media, the company that produced two DVD documetaries that were submitted into evidence. The films were entitled, "Unlocking the Mysteries of Life," and "The Privileged Planet."

When asked if the DVDs contain a religious message, Coppedge testified that, "No, they do not."

You can find the Pretty Planet out on YouTube but you only have to watch part 11 of 12. (I wish it had been 7 of 9!)

Anyway, all the talking heads are Liars for Jesus and they just can't help themselves from declaring that the universe is a creation of God, by which they mean their God.

Coppedge and the little creationists try to skirt the "ID is not religious" by claiming that the ID literature (in general) doesn't mention the Bible, however we all know that's a dodge and that they're playing word games.

A judge would need only 10 minutes on Google to uncover the entire scam. Time will tell if the judge is up to it.

Coppedge stated that he is a board member of Illustra Media, the company that produced two DVD documetaries that were submitted into evidence. The films were entitled, "Unlocking the Mysteries of Life," and "The Privileged Planet."

When asked if the DVDs contain a religious message, Coppedge testified that, "No, they do not."

You can find the Pretty Planet out on YouTube but you only have to watch part 11 of 12. (I wish it had been 7 of 9!)

Anyway, all the talking heads are Liars for Jesus and they just can't help themselves from declaring that the universe is a creation of God, by which they mean their God.

Coppedge and the little creationists try to skirt the "ID is not religious" by claiming that the ID literature (in general) doesn't mention the Bible, however we all know that's a dodge and that they're playing word games.

A judge would need only 10 minutes on Google to uncover the entire scam. Time will tell if the judge is up to it.

But, yeah, Coppedge is lying his head off. About everything.

Actually, a judge is not allowed to consider anything not introduced as evidence. So it would be illegal to Google anything related to the trial.

I am sure there will be a court showing of the videos, if the JPL lawyers have any brains.

Edited by Dr.GH on Mar. 18 2012,08:14

--------------"Science is the horse that pulls the cart of philosophy."

Narrated by three creationists, Nelson, Meyer and Dembski, none of whom are scientists. They actually claim that Dembski made a significant breakthrough that enables design to be detected. What a laugh!

Yes, let's hope the Judge shows both the Pretty Planet and Unlocking Creationism in court. I'll buy the popcorn.

I am sure there will be a court showing of the videos, if the JPL lawyers have any brains.

I would imagine they'll try to avoid the issue of ID/religion. JPL seem to have a reasonable case that Our Hero was asked not to do [x], continued to do so, and was less than adequate at his job and was ultimately made redundant.

No need to let the case drift onto his territory when your own is more than adequate.

tbh, I've watched that video (Privileged Planet 11/12) and I wouldn't call it "religious". It mentions God, but then so does Stephen Hawking in A Brief History of Time - that doesn't make his book religious.

It's putting across the argument that perhaps an Intelligent Designer is indicated by the constants of the universe, which is a legitimate argument (if wrong).

More to the point, JPL isn't defending its position on the basis of the content of Coppedge's views, but on the insensitive way in which he banged on about them at work (including his views, apparently, on gay marriage).

Seems legitimate to me, when you are downsizing, to let go the people whose social skills, or lack of them, are getting in the way of smooth running.

I am sure there will be a court showing of the videos, if the JPL lawyers have any brains.

I would imagine they'll try to avoid the issue of ID/religion. JPL seem to have a reasonable case that Our Hero was asked not to do [x], continued to do so, and was less than adequate at his job and was ultimately made redundant.

No need to let the case drift onto his territory when your own is more than adequate.

The JPL lawyers tried to block entry of the films as evidence but the judge overruled that motion in favor of Coppedge. However, Coppedge (er, Becker) argued that they needed deWolf to explain the films and the judge said he was competent to evaluate the evidence.

Would the judge have to play the films in court, or could he watch them by himself in chambers?

It's been a long time since I graduated law school and was admitted to the bar, and I've surely forgotten more than I remember. But here's one bit of legal street-smarts I've retained: if you're a plaintiff filing a trial brief, you may not want to write it as if it were a screenplay — and then admit that you're making stuff up.

--------------And the set of natural numbers is also the set that starts at 0 and goes to the largest number. -- Joe G

It's been a long time since I graduated law school and was admitted to the bar, and I've surely forgotten more than I remember. But here's one bit of legal street-smarts I've retained: if you're a plaintiff filing a trial brief, you may not want to write it as if it were a screenplay — and then admit that you're making stuff up.

Coppedge wrote his legal brief as a screenplay?

Heh. I love the "The intelligent design community cannot always pick its poster children." Welllll, I guess not. Just reach up your noses and find another "poster child," Disco Toots! Dig, dig, dig for someone else, because Normal Desmond wrote his screenplay and is ready for his close-up, Mr. DembskiMille! ("Well...if it gets him down the stairs...")

What a trainwreck!

--------------Which came first: the shimmy, or the hip?

AtBC Poet Laureate

"I happen to think that this prerequisite criterion of empirical evidence is itself not empirical." - Clive

His lawyer Becker wrote the brief and, yes, it's a screen play. Most bizarre thing I've ever read and at first I couldn't believe it was a submitted legal document.

They're nuts.

However, Becker, a workman's comp lawyer, is now playing the Headache Card and poor old Coppy has to lie down every few minutes to rest his poor old melon. How he ever held a job with such a pulsating brain we'll never know.

His lawyer Becker wrote the brief and, yes, it's a screen play. Most bizarre thing I've ever read and at first I couldn't believe it was a submitted legal document.

They're nuts.

However, Becker, a workman's comp lawyer, is now playing the Headache Card and poor old Coppy has to lie down every few minutes to rest his poor old melon. How he ever held a job with such a pulsating brain we'll never know.

"On one occasion Coppedge went as far as talking with a co-worker about the "Gospel of Jesus Christ." He also testified to sharing a DVD called the "Case for Christ" with a fellow employee at Christmas time."

"But his attorney said he wouldn't go as far as to say Coppedge was evangelizing or trying to win converts.

"It wasn't evangelizing," Becker said of the DVD. "It was a Christmas present."

Lol. After prep, when your attorney is explaining away you answers, you have failed.

All Science! Wonder if that was the employee who wanted a "Holiday Party" instead of a "Xmas Party?" Bring your Jewish or Muslim or Atheist co-worker you're having a disagreement with the "Case for Christ" as a Christmas present? I can't imagine the shitstorm at my work!

Quote

"I did research some information about judicial candidates because people didn't know much about the judicial candidates," Coppedge said. "People (at work) found that helpful."

I'm sure this is in the context of Prop-8. Sure your gay and allied co-workers appreciated your research, asshole.

His own fucking lawyers, his headaches and all, are close to establishing a pattern of clueless dumbassedness, if not straight-up harassment. When does cross-x start?

His lawyer Becker wrote the brief and, yes, it's a screen play. Most bizarre thing I've ever read and at first I couldn't believe it was a submitted legal document.

They're nuts.

However, Becker, a workman's comp lawyer, is now playing the Headache Card and poor old Coppy has to lie down every few minutes to rest his poor old melon. How he ever held a job with such a pulsating brain we'll never know.

I’ve taken a few liberties (none of them religious) with the “screenplay” proffered by Coppedge and Becker in Plaintiff’s Trial Brief filed in Dec 2011 to give what “might have been” a different perspective on events leading up to the trial. As parody and opinion, it makes no claim as to the factual accuracy of events. No real effort was made to structure this as a viable screenplay. Any resemblance to the actual train of events is purely coincidental.

INT. OFFICE SPACE – SOMETIME IN THE DAY

COPPEDGE enters CHIN’S office.CHIN: Hi, David. I’ve been getting complaints about your treatment of customers and co-workers. I was wondering if you could refrain from broaching sensitive subjects while on the job. I am willing to coach you on it.COPPEDGE (annoyed): I disagree with your position on it and on every A.S.S.*-inine interpretation of Cassini data. I challenge you to a debate. The parking lot. 3 o’clock.CHIN: Is there anything I can say to change your mind?COPPEDGE: No, for the Bible tells me not to.COPPEDGE eats shoots and leaves.

*A.S.S. = Coppedge-ism for 'Age of the Solar System'

MONTHS LATER

INT. WORK AREA – DAYCHIN: Hi, David. I’m sorry to inform you that you’re part of a general layoff involving several employees due to budget cutbacks. JPL is making job placement services available. Would you like to participate?COPPEDGE: Sure, as long as it doesn’t cut into my time maintaing my Creationist website, guiding Creation Safaris, illustrating media at Illustra Media, etc.

COPPEDGE’S HOME – DAY (OR NIGHT, WHENEVER)DAVID is writing up blog entries on how evo-blinded scientists are wedded to their sacrosanct A.S.S., stopping occasionally to admire the way he came up with the acronym ‘A.S.S.’ But upon reflecting upon events at JPL over the last several months, he becomes increasingly distressed. The compaints were really about religion! The demotion was really about religion! The layoff was really about….religion! How heavy-handed and repetitive can I perceive JPL to get?HIS DVD-LENDING LIST. He notices a pattern forming. Wha?? His co-workers’ lack of appreciation for the considerate comments next to each of their names. Their weak principles blinding them to the truth. What the …?

INT. LAW OFFICE – DAY

Morning at the Becker Law Firm. COPPEDGE moves urgently through the corriders. Out of breath, reaches BECKER’S office.BECKER: Hi, David. What’s up? You look like you’ve seen a ghost or zombie Jesus.COPPEDGE: I saw a ghost alright. A spectre of religious persecution!BECKER: Come again?COPPEDGE: CHIN ordered me to stop exercising my free speech rights about matters I know I’m right about, and … and –BECKER: Take a chill pill, David. Tell me what happened. Show me on this doll where you felt violated.COPPEDGE: It was … horrible. I have an impressive title at Illustra Media. I brave the perils of Creation Safaris. I run a Creationist website almost 24/7, you know. CHIN didn’t care when he’d crossed the line suppressing my freedom of speech in the workplace. I’ve had it with him. I’m so uncomfortable with CHIN having approached me about watching how I treat customers and talking about my lack of awareness in pushing my religiously motivated political, scientific and office party views on an unwilling audience. I couldn’t deal with him on these kinds of issues. And (headache ensues) …BECKER: There, there. Would you like a hot beverage?COPPEDGE: … and there was my Red Streamline Stapler on his desk. He always borrows it and never gives it back and – I think he was trying to create a hostile work environment. I don’t want JPL to get away with suppressing my freedom of speech on religious grounds on company time ever again. I cant stand for it. I just cant!BECKER: Well, I’ll look into it. Let me know when you want to sue JPL for religious discrimination.COPPEDGE: You know, I have an impressive title at Illustra Media. I brave the perils of Creation Safaris. I run a Creationist website almost 24/7, and I’m a member of …