Transcript

TONY JONES, PRESENTER: We'll go live now to Beirut where we're joined by Lama Fakih, a researcher on Lebanon and Syria for Human Rights Watch.

Thanks for being there.

LAMA FAKIH, RESEARCHER, HUMAN RIGHTS WATCH: Thank you for having me.

TONY JONES: Who are the witnesses that you managed to get through to overnight after news came through of this attack?

LAMA FAKIH: So we were able to speak to 10 different witnesses including two physicians, across towns and both Eastern and Western Huta, which were both subjected to these alleged chemical weapons attacks early yesterday morning. And the witnesses consistently painted a picture for us of residents in the early-morning hours having been affected by what they saw as rockets being launched from Damascus city centre. The primary symptoms have been convulsions, difficulties breathing, pin-point pupils or pupils that are very, very small, sort of frothing at the mouth, and as we've seen, there have been hundreds of fatalities reported.

TONY JONES: Yeah, let's start with the doctors. We'll go through some of the other witnesses. The doctors were obviously swamped by emergency admissions, some of them were called out in the middle of the night to medical centres and to field hospitals. What did they tell you about the state of the people as they were coming in because they were being brought in dead and injured and among them women and children?

LAMA FAKIH: That's right. The doctors that we spoke to, this was the first time that they had seen an attack of this nature. And what they did was they received those that were still alive, they stripped them of their clothing, they washed them with a disinfectant and then began to administer in some cases CPR along with a combination of using atropine and hydrocortisone to try to revive patients and allow them to continue breathing on their own. It was clear that many of the first responders were not medical professionals. And it is difficult to sort of understand in a context like this, particularly like that in Eastern Huta that has been under siege by the Syrian Government for well over a year, where they have been lacking from water, food, basic medical supplies and facilities, it is difficult to understand how in a context like this individuals that have never seen an attack like this could cope. And we know quite well that they feel that they have not been able to meet the needs of the residents that are continuing to require their medical assistance.

TONY JONES: Yeah, some of those first responders you're talking about evidently were affected themselves, partly because of the chemicals still on the clothing of the people. The fact that the doctors were treating with atropine and other agents which are used to treat chemical poisoning does suggest this certainly was chemical poisoning at the very least, doesn't it?

LAMA FAKIH: Well, I mean, what we do know is that the symptoms are consistent with nerve - chemical nerve attack and, yes, that the medications that were used are the types of medications that would be prescribed to respond to such an attack. But in order for these medications to be effective, they need to be administered depending on the significance of the dose, either within minutes or within hours of exposure. And in some cases residents were not able to get to medical facilities in time, and as you said, the first responders are not equipped even to protect themselves from exposure. And we did get reports that those that went into the communities to try to rescue affected residents themselves became ill and experienced the same symptoms.

TONY JONES: Now in some of these medical centres, particularly in the field hospitals, the atropine and other medicines ran out at some point and it appears that people kept coming in, weren't able to be treated and many died during the course of the night and the following day.

LAMA FAKIH: Physicians spoke with urgency about their dwindling medical supplies, and again, in Eastern Huta, which has continued to by under siege, they are not able to get medical supplies into the area, so they are urgently looking to the international community to really put pressure on the Syrian Government to allow humanitarian assistance providers into the area. They continue to be very concerned that such an attack could be replicated. We've seen that the international response has failed to deter actors that would perpetrate such an assault on a residential population.

TONY JONES: Were you able, talking to all of these witnesses, to get a clear picture of the numbers of dead and injured? Because we hear very differing accounts, but certainly in the many hundreds of dead and many, many hundreds of injured and badly-affected.

LAMA FAKIH: It's clear that the number is in the hundreds, but we have not been able to verify the total fatality number. We did receive a breakdown from various medical facilities in both Eastern and Western Huta. Those figures do amount to well over 1,000 people killed. But again, because we are not on the ground, because of limitations and ability to communicate even via internet or phone, it has been very difficult to conduct any type of investigation from a distance. And it bears repeating that the UN investigators are currently inside Damascus, literally within kilometres of where these attacks have been perpetrated. It is their mandate to investigate allegations of chemical weapons use in Syria and they should be given access to these areas to do just that.

TONY JONES: Now, there've been several accounts in your reporting from the people you spoke to of people actually watching missiles being fired from the city of Damascus and in other cases of people seeing or hearing missiles landing in their neighbourhood, seeing clouds of smoke coming from those missiles or the site of the explosion and then seeing very soon afterwards people affected by what appeared to be chemical poisoning. Can you tell us just a little bit about those accounts? How reliable are the people who are telling you about these missiles coming from the areas controlled by the regime?

LAMA FAKIH: So we received multiple accounts separately, so in different interviews, from residents from different areas that were consistent and what they were saying is that the rockets were coming from the direction of the October war panorama in central Damascus and from the Mezzeh military airport in Damascus as well and these are areas that continue to be under Government control.

TONY JONES: Yeah. Some of the people you spoke to are described as residents, others as media activists, others, as we've said before, as doctors. Is there any chance that all these people could be collaborating in a great big lie, which is what the Government is saying?

LAMA FAKIH: I think it really is the Syrian - the onus is on the Syrian Government here, that if what they say is true, that chemical weapons were not used in Eastern and Western Huta or that they were not responsible for these attacks, then what they should do is allow the UN inspectors in to assess whether chemical weapons were used and to allow the UN commission of inquiry in so that they can assess who the perpetrators of these crimes are. I don't think at this stage we can accept statements indicating that hundreds of people did not die. There is too much evidence out there that is credible indicating that that is not the case.

TONY JONES: When we first saw the images come through last night, the appearance was of something that had happened in one place and led to a large number of casualties, but looking at the reports that you've put together from the testimony of these witnesses, it seems that there are quite a few neighbourhoods and towns affected. I counted 10 separate neighbourhoods that you mentioned that people were talking about in their accounts. How wide a geographical spread did these missiles fall in and how many is it believed carried chemical weapons?

LAMA FAKIH: So the strongest reports that we were able to gather in the past 24 hours are from Zamelka and (inaudible) Eastern Huta and from (inaudible) in Western Huta. Western Huta is about 12 kilometres to the west of central Damascus, so if you'll take the position of where the inspectors currently are in central Damascus , it's about 12 kilometres from there to the south-west. (Inaudible) and Zamelka are closer to one another, about six to seven kilometres to the east. There are various areas surrounding Zamelka and (inaudible) where we also received some allegations that residents were suffering from chemical weapons attacks. There needs to be more clarity on whether these residents were affected because they were amongst the first responders or because rockets also fell in their neighbourhoods, resulting to their exposure.

TONY JONES: But it does appear that more than one missile or rocket seems to have hit because of the way that the victims were dispersed across different neighbourhoods and indeed different towns. That makes it sound like a multiple chemical weapons attack. Is that how it sounds to you?

LAMA FAKIH: The witnesses that we spoke to indicated that there were between eight to 18 rockets that were launched. Now that information is not complete because of course they wouldn't have had access to identify all of the rockets that were launched, but that is information that we've received as of now about the likelihood of the frequency of the rockets that may, again, have carried these chemical substances.

TONY JONES: Final question: if the UN chemical weapons inspection team, these experts, were able to leave the centre of Damascus and come to these neighbourhoods, what would they be looking for in terms of proof? Obviously there'd be the people themselves, but would they also be looking for canisters, for the remains of exploded missiles that might have carried chemical weapons and the remainder of that chemical substance within these missiles?

LAMA FAKIH: Absolutely. So they would be able to conduct forensic investigations, take soil samples, to do tests on clothing of those that were affected, take blood and urine samples, test the water supply, look at whether animals in the area had been exposed and been affected and of course also be able to speak to residents. You will really require an on-the-ground investigation in order to gather the type of forensic evidence needed to assess and to verify with certainty whether a chemical weapons attack did occur. And what we've seen really is a failure of the international community and more specifically the UN Security Council to insist and urge that this investigation team have access. It's failure to do that and its inaction on Syria throughout the course of this conflict has in many ways sent a message that those that continue to conduct gross human rights violations, crimes against humanity and war crimes will not pay the price and that is not the message that the international community should be sending to either the Syrian Government or to other armed actors on the ground that are committing violations.

TONY JONES: Lama Fakih, we'll keep watching and monitoring the evidence as you present it. Thank you very much for coming in to talk to us about what you found, at least overnight.