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Topic: Critic of quran by me (Read 1801 times)

In this book we can find some error in the scientific domain.I will share with you a verse of koran. In Arabic a verse is called ??? and the plural is ????.The litteral traduction of this therm is sign.In Arabic the koran is named ?????? and this word signify "recitation".Each chapter of quran is named s?ra ???? and the plural is ????? .

Now I will quote the ayha 14 in the 23 s?ra on 114 named ???????? or in English the believers.

1.Translation by Maulana Muhammad Ali :Then We make the life-germ a clot, then We make the clot a lump of flesh, then We make (in) the lump of flesh bones, then We clothe the bones with flesh, then We cause it to grow into another creation. So blessed be Allah, the Best of creators.2.Translation by progressive muslims organization :Then We created the seed into an embryo, then We created the embryo into a fetus, then We created the fetus into bone, then We covered the bone with flesh, then We brought forth a new creation. So glory be to God, the best of creators.3.Translation by Abdullah Yusuf Ali :Then We made the sperm into a clot of congealed blood; then of that clot We made a (foetus) lump; then we made out of that lump bones and clothed the bones with flesh; then we developed out of it another creature. So blessed be Allah, the best to create!

We can see a lot of error but my favorite error is the next : in this ayha it's write that bones appear before flesh but this is false.

This one challenges astronomers to see any disorder in the heavens"Who created the seven heavens one above another; you see no incongruity in the creation of the Beneficent Allah; then look again, can you see any disorder? "

Allah has a go at playing God of the Gaps"Do they not look at the birds, held poised in the midst of (the air and) the sky? Nothing holds them up but (the power of) Allah. Verily in this are signs for those who believe"

In 300BC, it was common to believe that the sun, moon and winds came out of chambers at the four corners of the Earth"Until, when he reached the setting of the sun, he found it set in a spring of murky water: Near it he found a People: We said: "O Zul-qarnain! (thou hast authority,) either to punish them, or to treat them with kindness."

1.Translation by Maulana Muhammad Ali :30 And when thy Lord said to the angels, I am going to place a ruler in the earth, they said: Wilt Thou place in it such as make mischief in it and shed blood? And we celebrate Thy praise and extol Thy holiness. He said: Surely I know what you know not.

31 And He taught Adam all the names, then presented them to the angels; He said: Tell Me the names of those if you are right.

32 They said: Glory be to Thee We have no knowledge but that which Thou hast taught us. Surely Thou art the Knowing, the Wise.

33 He said: O Adam, inform them of their names. So when he informed them of their names, He said: Did I not say to you that I know what is unseen in the heavens and the earth? And I know what you manifest and what you hide.

34 And when We said to the angels, Be submissive to Adam, they submitted, but Iblis (did not). He refused and was proud, and he was one of the disbelievers.

2.Translation by progressive muslims organization : 30 And your Lord said to the Angels: "I am placing a successor on Earth." They said: "Would You place in it he who would corrupt in it, and spill blood, while we sing Your glory, and praise You?" He said: "I know what you do not know."

31 And He taught Adam the description of all things, then He displayed them to the Angels and said: "Inform Me the descriptions of these things if you are truthful."

32 They said: "Glory be to You, we have no knowledge except that which You have taught us, You are the Knowledgeable, the Wise."

33 He said: "O Adam, inform them of the description of these," so when he informed them of their descriptions, He said: "Did I not tell you that I know the unseen of heavens and Earth, and that I know what you reveal and what you were hiding?"

34 And We said to the Angels: "Submit to Adam," so they submitted except for Satan, he refused and became arrogant, and became of the rejecters.

3.Translation by Abdullah Yusuf Ali :30 Behold, thy Lord said to the angels: "I will create a vicegerent on earth." They said: "Wilt Thou place therein one who will make mischief therein and shed blood?—whilst we do celebrate Thy praises and glorify Thy holy (name)?" He said: "I know what ye know not."

31 And He taught Adam the nature of all things; then He placed them before the angels, and said: "Tell me the names of these if ye are right."

32 They said: "Glory to Thee, of knowledge We have none, save what Thou hast taught us: In truth it is Thou who art perfect in knowledge and wisdom."

33 He said: "O Adam! Tell them their natures." When he had told them, God said: "Did I not tell you that I know the secrets of heaven and earth, and I know what ye reveal and what ye conceal?"

34 And behold, We said to the angels: "Bow down to Adam" and they bowed down. Not so Iblis : he refused and was haughty: He was of those who reject Faith.

4.Translation by Marmaduke Pickthall : 30 And when thy Lord said unto the angels: Lo! I am about to place a viceroy in the earth, they said: Wilt thou place therein one who will do harm therein and will shed blood, while we, we hymn Thy praise and sanctify Thee ? He said: Surely I know that which ye know not.

31 And He taught Adam all the names, then showed them to the angels, saying: Inform Me of the names of these, if ye are truthful.

32 They said: Be glorified! We have no knowledge saving that which Thou hast taught us. Lo! Thou, only Thou, art the Knower, the Wise.

33 He said: O Adam! Inform them of their names, and when he had informed them of their names, He said: Did I not tell you that I know the secret of the heavens and the earth ? And I know that which ye disclose and which ye hide.

34 And when We said unto the angels: Prostrate yourselves before Adam, they fell prostrate, all save Iblis. He demurred through pride, and so became a disbeliever..

5.Translation by Royal aal al-bayt institute :30 And when your Lord said to the angels, 'I am appointing on earth a vicegerent', they said, 'What, will You appoint therein one who will do corruption therein and shed blood, while we glorify You with praise and sanctify You?'; He said, 'Assuredly, I know what you know not'.

31 And He taught Adam the names, all of them; then He presented them to the angels and said, 'Now tell Me the names of these if you speak truly'.

32 They said, 'Glory be to You! We know not except what You have taught us. Surely You are the Knower, Wise'.

33 He said, 'Adam, tell them their names'; And when he had told them their names He said, 'Did I not tell you that I know the Unseen in the heavens and the earth?, And I know what you reveal and what you were hiding.

34 And when We said to the angels, ‘Prostrate yourselves to Adam; so they prostrated themselves, except Ibl?s, he refused and disdained; and so he became one of the disbelievers.

Also note that the quran supports the old view that sperm is all that is needed to make a baby. The sperm is planted in a womb, Allah does ... something or other and you have a baby. No egg required. Some translations try to obfuscate this by using terms like 'life-germ' which might mean 'the combination of egg and sperm'. But doing stuff like that pretty much makes the translator a liar for Muhammed. You KNOW Muhammed got it wrong, but twist and turn the words until is becomes sufficiently muddled so that it might mean anything.Muhammed didn't know much about anything but since Arabia was trade-heavy at the time, he did have access to SOME knowledge. Enough to impress the even more ignorant common Arabians.

In viocjit's last post we see glimpses of this. Without Allah neither angels, nor humans can know anything. Muhammed pulls this several times in the quran. Throws out some random gem of knowledge (often wrong, but how would his minions know) and follows up with "See? Allah knows EVERYTHING, muahahahaaaa!"

As an aside, Adam must have been quite the brainiac ... Allah taught him the names of ALL the animals ... ALL of them, millions and millions of names! And Adams remembers them all and instructs the angels. WOW! I can barely remember the names of the 24 players of my favorite football team!!!A different explanation is of course that Muhammed knew maybe a few dozen different animals, one hundred at the most. Anyone can remember that, right?

And another case of creative translation ... Iblis/Satan won't bow down to Adam and promptly ... while still face to face with Allah ... denies the existance of Allah!!!Some translations try to save this part by putting 'reject' in stead of 'disbelief' ... but that doesn't make much sense either. Iblis knows perfectly well what Allah can do. He has seen it first hand ... but he's still going to reject Allah? Not rebel ... it doesn't say 'rebel'. 'Rebel' would makes sense, much in the same way that Hitch would not worship Biblegod even if he were real. Rebelling against a dictator is even morally upright. But it didn't say 'rebel' it said 'reject'. Ie. close your eyes, jams your fingers into your ears and go "lalalalalaaaaaa, I can't see you creating life, lalalalalaaaa".

Aaah, the quran, the one book that's even more insane than the bible.

« Last Edit: May 30, 2013, 01:56:16 AM by Fiji »

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The quran expressly tells them to do that. Move into a new area and be nice to the people who live there. These people will think, oy, these muslim dudes are pretty cool. More and more of the locals become amicable towards islam and may even convert.Then, the quran says, once you outnumber them, give them a choice, convert or die. And when they're all converted or dead ... move to the next area.

As for this Yahya person viocjit mentioned. Yahya is the Turkish equivalent of a televangelist, though he got his fortunes, not through television. He has a large following who hurl money at him by the truckload. This has allowed him to self-publish a ton of books. Most importantly, his atlas of creation, which is an utter farce as far as its contents go but which has been produced according to the highest standards. Top notch printing technology, highest quality paper, that sort of thing. Then, using the truckloads of money, he started throwing hordes of lawyers at anyone critical of him or any of his books. He has even managed to get a bunch of websites blocked by the Turkish government.

Now there's something these Anonymous fellows might put some effort into. Anonymous has 'promised' to attack Belgium, sometime in early june because the Belgian government is blocking websites. Which websites? Dodgy gambling sites. Sooooo, anonymous is going to raise hell ... over a bunch of con artists' sites being blocked ... yeah ... that's ... splendid, I suppose Why don't they, rather than support the Russian maffia, get off their arses, if they do want to make a point, and go after Turkey?

Now, if life were a movie, this post would instantly show up at the super-duper hightech fortress of Anonymous in Hawaii and the Head Anonymous would go ... By Crom, he's right![1]

Then, the quran says, once you outnumber them, give them a choice, convert or die. And when they're all converted or dead ... move to the next area.

I'm not all that familiar with the koran. Could you please include the chapter/verse (or however the koran is indexed)?

Qur'an

Quote

But when the forbidden months are past, then fight and slay the Pagans wherever ye find them, and seize them, beleaguer them, and lie in wait for them in every stratagem (of war); but if they repent, and establish regular prayers and practise regular charity, then open the way for them: for Allah is Oft-forgiving, Most Merciful.

9:5

Hadith

there's loads about forced conversion in the hadith but heres a couple;

Quote

Narrated Ibn 'Umar: Allah's Apostle said: "I have been ordered (by Allah) to fight against the people until they testify that none has the right to be worshipped but Allah and that Muhammad is Allah's Apostle, and offer the prayers perfectly and give the obligatory charity, so if they perform that, then they save their lives and property from me except for Islamic laws and then their reckoning (accounts) will be done by Allah."

Sahih Bukhari 1:2:24

Quote

Narrated Anas bin Malik: Allah's Apostle said, "I have been ordered to fight the people till they say: 'None has the right to be worshipped but Allah.' And if they say so, pray like our prayers, face our Qibla and slaughter as we slaughter, then their blood and property will be sacred to us and we will not interfere with them except legally and their reckoning will be with Allah." Narrated Maimun ibn Siyah that he asked Anas bin Malik, "O Abu Hamza! What makes the life and property of a person sacred?" He replied, "Whoever says, 'None has the right to be worshipped but Allah', faces our Qibla during the prayers, prays like us and eats our slaughtered animal, then he is a Muslim, and has got the same rights and obligations as other Muslims have."

Thanks Mrjason, while I did read the damn thing cover to cover (dragging myself through the last several dozen sura, they're attrocious in ever possible way ... if anyone ever tells you the poetry of the quran is just soooooooooooo beautiful ... have them try to explain those sura) I'm unable to provide actual verse numbers. I'd need to read it quite a bit more before I'd be able to start quoting verse numbers.

screwtape, they're indeed indexed chapter/verseSo, 9:5 is chapter 9 verse 5.Chapters are called sura which is both singular and plural, tough some use surat for the singular.Sura also have names, sura 19, eg, is called Maryam. So, sometimes people will refer to Maryam 17-22 ... which is the part where the holy ghost knocks up Mary.

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Instruction manual for treaties with unbelievers. Boils down to "they're going to betray you anyway so anything goes".

really?

9:3-4

Quote

And [it is] an announcement from Allah and His Messenger to the people on the day of the greater pilgrimage that Allah is disassociated from the disbelievers, and [so is] His Messenger. So if you repent, that is best for you; but if you turn away - then know that you will not cause failure to Allah . And give tidings to those who disbelieve of a painful punishment.

Excepted are those with whom you made a treaty among the polytheists and then they have not been deficient toward you in anything or supported anyone against you; so complete for them their treaty until their term [has ended]. Indeed, Allah loves the righteous [who fear Him].

And if any one of the polytheists seeks your protection, then grant him protection so that he may hear the words of Allah . Then deliver him to his place of safety. That is because they are a people who do not know.

How can there be for the polytheists a treaty in the sight of Allah and with His Messenger, except for those with whom you made a treaty at al-Masjid al-Haram? So as long as they are upright toward you, be upright toward them. Indeed, Allah loves the righteous [who fear Him].

Looks like it can be summarized by "if they are nice to you, be nice to them". And as I recall, this was specifically in reference to arab polytheists with whom they were at war when this allegedly occurred.

Don't get me wrong. I think islam is a horrid religion. I just think 9:5 has been used heavily out of context by bigots on both sides to support the wrong things. I don't think 9:5 proves what a lot of people want it to prove.

How [can there be a treaty] while, if they gain dominance over you, they do not observe concerning you any pact of kinship or covenant of protection? They satisfy you with their mouths, but their hearts refuse [compliance], and most of them are defiantly disobedient.

But you're right, religious texts being what they are can almost always be explained in any way the reader cares to explain them. One can focus on 9:1-7 and take a live and let live approach, or focus on 9:8 and assume 'they' will lie to you no matter what and take a kill them all approach.

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the covenant of protection seems to apply only when "protection money" is paid.

that is what it seems to me too, but that's not the argument. The point was whether the koran actually told muslims to play nice until they had the upper hand, and once that was had, it was convert or die.

I agree, it is an approach. And if given my druthers, I'd rather the guy who wrote that opinion be set on fire.

Islam, like protestant xianity and hinduism, is a free-for-all when it comes to interpretation. Anyone can do it and there is no overarching authority. So there is no monolithic, official Opinion of Islam on the matter. You will find militants who use it to justify their criminal behavior and you will find good people who either interpret it as I have or ignore it altogether.

that is what it seems to me too, but that's not the argument. The point was whether the koran actually told muslims to play nice until they had the upper hand, and once that was had, it was convert or die.

As you say, the problem with interpretation is that it can be moulded to fit to any belief. I'm sure that somewhere out there there is a scholar1 that can interpret the qur'an this way

I think it's partly because it's an abrahamic religion and the fact that muslims generally tend to be uneducated and poor.

I also think it is because of the wider context in which islam was created. Mohammed was essentially a warlord, it follows that the religion that he invented would be a warlike one

footnote 1such as this one (Sobhy as-Saleh, Dar al-'Ilm Lel-Malayeen, Beirut, 1983, p. 269) [Referring to 2:256 and 9:73] The command to fight the infidels was delayed until the Muslims become strong, but when they were weak they were commanded to endure and be patient.al-Qur'an