Madre Hill, Superstar wrote:Brad Johnson. Who, incidentally, is also the last QB to hoist a trophy that wasn't drafted in the first two rounds.

Is this for real, or am I missing on some inside joke?

K. So now we're good with defining we have the top 64 players to find Hercules in cleats franchise QB guy?

But pick 65? Out of the question. It'll never happen. Unless Seattle wins it. Then we can redefine I suppose. Or maybe KCs D will get on a run, Bowe goes Charles Jefferson and Jamal gets loose. Then we're back to gotta get a QB number 1 overall I suppose?

Changes in how frequently QBs face duress can warp their overall stats. Despite that insane connection to David Tyree in Super Bowl XLII, Manning doesn't throw well when rushed: In the past three seasons, his QBR has cratered by 56.5 points (from 69.3 to 12.8!) under duress, the second-biggest decline among starters. Manning is not easily rattled. Rather, he has an excellent deep touch, so much so that for the past five seasons, the Giants have structured their offense around Manning dropping back a mile, staying in the pocket forever and hurling bombs. But this season, behind an ineffective O-line and a nonexistent running game, Manning, though resilient, has been a sitting duck: He's been hassled on 19.9 percent of plays, up from 15.4 percent the previous two seasons. Matt Ryan, same deal: He's been under duress on 23.3 percent of plays in 2013, up from 14.4 percent in 2011 and 2012 -- and his QBR plunges 52.2 points in those situations.

Jay Cutler is at one extreme; he's the only starter since 2011 whose QBR has actually increased (from 54.8 to 63.9) under duress. Say what you want about Cutler, who has battled groin and ankle injuries this year and has had seasons in which he's lost bushels of points to sacks and fumbles: In the face of danger, the man keeps his composure.

Good info. We need more posts like this that have some actual facts.

Another indication it's about the team and not one transcendent player in all but the rarest 2 or 3 player situations, and you can't throw up your hands and buy lotto tickets as a strategy until you land Peyton, Bree's or Brady.

Jay Cutler is at one extreme; he's the only starter since 2011 whose QBR has actually increased (from 54.8 to 63.9) under duress. Say what you want about Cutler, who has battled groin and ankle injuries this year and has had seasons in which he's lost bushels of points to sacks and fumbles: In the face of danger, the man keeps his composure.

It'll never happen, most likely as a result of no interest from either side, so it probably isn't worth too much discussion, but if Cutler hits the open market, any QB-needy teams that don't pursue him are stoopid. Even the team picking #1 overall.

Not us, of course. We won't pursue him, because we're too smart for that.

Gotta believe the Bears will re-sign him or re-sign him and deal him. Love the way the guy competes and throws and moves. But always been just a bit too big of a dick to ever put it all together. Wonder if that's been beaten out of him some or he's matured beyond that.

jb wrote:Good info. We need more posts like this that have some actual facts.

Another indication it's about the team and not one transcendent player in all but the rarest 2 or 3 player situations, and you can't throw up your hands and buy lotto tickets as a strategy until you land Peyton, Bree's or Brady.

That's the point, right? Shit goes to hell and suddenly the QB (who may or may not be 'elite' anyway) ain't even close.

The guys closest to Cutler on that list were Big Ben and Cam. Guy like Brees was closer to bottom. Which should tell people how dependent on system and others he is as well. That's not demeaning him or E Manning, either. They're brilliant when their system is in place and there is talent around them that utilizes their strengths.

Do Dilfer, Hostetler, Johnson & Rypien get into your pantheon while Marino & Fouts can fuck a goat?

Farve gets in because Des Howard can return kicks.

Passing. League. 2013 isn't 2004 and it sure as hell ain't 1983. It still took years of offensive development and a helping hand from the rules committee to finally bury Joe Gibbs and Chuck Knox.

Cap is out & Flacco in thanks to refs.

Complete BS.

22 of 33, 287 yds, 3 TDs, 0 ints vs 16 of 28, 302 yds, 1 TD, and 1 int. Flacco made the money throws, got the Ravens in the end zone, and brought home the sausage. Kaep, uh, didn't.

Or maybe Refs Did 9/11. That's winning logic there.

You did see the PI call at the end of the game, yes?

That was pure, unadulterated luck. Chance. A flip of a coin. The point is that this one play apparently places Joe Flacco into some other category. Nonsense. Flacco is the same QB he was as if he hit or missed that pass, or if Denver can play prevent worth a damn for that matter. This neither lionizes nor minimizes him in reality.

Flaccco never was and isn't elite. What he is, is a good QB that got on a post season roll. But this rather arbitrary standard of anointing him that is as logical as judging a pitcher by W's and L's.

Having said that, so long as we can have license to find that super-special franchise elite talent in, oh, the first 64 picks in any given draft I think I can rest easy.

Nicastro13 wrote:Anyone else interested in the 3 game showcase of Kirk Cousins?

I am. Not so much tonight indoors, but I want to see him spin it next week outside against Dallas and in last week vs. Giants outdoors in this slop.

There is nothing to dislike about the way Cousins runs a team and controls his offense. Dude is smart, big enough, etc. But if people don't like Hoyer's arm they shouldn't want anything to do with Cousins either.

I like the guy. I've watched average armed guys succeed on the lake front.

peeker643 wrote:I don't think 'elite' has ever been argued in terms of what you're aiming for.

Which of those 'elite' guys won when they were first or 2nd year players? And in the rare case 'elite' guy wins early in career, how good is the team?

Point being you can be better by being better on your way to where you want to be.

I won't necessarily argue, but my 'elite' comps was trying to do was set the stage.

Postseason ain't regular season. In a passing league, every passing play counts and they count more and more the tougher the opposition gets. You can't count on someone with a weakness here or there that can get exploited here or there.

Tony Romo can rack up all the yards and TDs he wants but fuck if you can't guarantee at least one boneheaded INT from him a game. That's fine if all you need is 10-6, not if you have to pull of a three/four-game postseason winning streak.

Now, would you trust Jason Campbell to help get you those three or four straight games? Nick Foles? Jay Cutler?

Which goes to my point: The higher the draft pick, the more likely you're to land a guy closer to the perfect model you're aiming for. There ain't no guarantees, but the odds are in your favor. And you need that strong durable guy with something more than air between his ears if you want to do more than hoist division banners.

"The fucking Who...... If I want to watch old people run around ill go set fire to a nursing home." - CDT

peeker643 wrote:I don't think 'elite' has ever been argued in terms of what you're aiming for.

Which of those 'elite' guys won when they were first or 2nd year players? And in the rare case 'elite' guy wins early in career, how good is the team?

Point being you can be better by being better on your way to where you want to be.

I won't necessarily argue, but my 'elite' comps was trying to do was set the stage.

Postseason ain't regular season. In a passing league, every passing play counts and they count more and more the tougher the opposition gets. You can't count on someone with a weakness here or there that can get exploited here or there.

Edit - It's not "the higher the draft pick". It's the better the prospect.Tony Romo can rack up all the yards and TDs he wants but fuck if you can't guarantee at least one boneheaded INT from him a game. That's fine if all you need is 10-6, not if you have to pull of a three/four-game postseason winning streak.

Now, would you trust Jason Campbell to help get you those three or four straight games? Nick Foles? Jay Cutler?

Which goes to my point: The higher the draft pick, the more likely you're to land a guy closer to the perfect model you're aiming for. There ain't no guarantees, but the odds are in your favor. And you need that strong durable guy with something more than air between his ears if you want to do more than hoist division banners.

Trust?

Campbell? No. But the Browns as a team can't sniff the scenario. Until the team improves who cares?

Foles? maybe. Tabula rasa. based on evidence? Sure. Think of him like a young pitcher.

Cutler? Really.... who the hell knows.

I do want more than division banners. But here's the thing.... wait for it..... its a process.

Nicastro13 wrote:Anyone else interested in the 3 game showcase of Kirk Cousins?

I am. Not so much tonight indoors, but I want to see him spin it next week outside against Dallas and in last week vs. Giants outdoors in this slop.

There is nothing to dislike about the way Cousins runs a team and controls his offense. Dude is smart, big enough, etc. But if people don't like Hoyer's arm they shouldn't want anything to do with Cousins either.

I like the guy. I've watched average armed guys succeed on the lake front.

But I ain't giving up a shitload for him either.

The irony being that if he plays well, it'll take a shitload to pry him out of there. Specially with the RG3 sitch being what it is.

Nicastro13 wrote:Anyone else interested in the 3 game showcase of Kirk Cousins?

I am. Not so much tonight indoors, but I want to see him spin it next week outside against Dallas and in last week vs. Giants outdoors in this slop.

There is nothing to dislike about the way Cousins runs a team and controls his offense. Dude is smart, big enough, etc. But if people don't like Hoyer's arm they shouldn't want anything to do with Cousins either.

I like the guy. I've watched average armed guys succeed on the lake front.

But I ain't giving up a shitload for him either.

The irony being that if he plays well, it'll take a shitload to pry him out of there. Specially with the RG3 sitch being what it is.

Yep- I'd give up that Indy first and an additional pick somewhere. It'll take a lot, but Washington needs to recoup a pick or 8 themselves and they can't keep them both forever. Cousins would be restricted FA after next year, no?

Nicastro13 wrote:Anyone else interested in the 3 game showcase of Kirk Cousins?

I am. Not so much tonight indoors, but I want to see him spin it next week outside against Dallas and in last week vs. Giants outdoors in this slop.

There is nothing to dislike about the way Cousins runs a team and controls his offense. Dude is smart, big enough, etc. But if people don't like Hoyer's arm they shouldn't want anything to do with Cousins either.

I like the guy. I've watched average armed guys succeed on the lake front.

But I ain't giving up a shitload for him either.

I'm curious as to what made you arrive at that opinion. Was it just the game in Cleveland last year? Because the guy has about 30 pass attempts in the league otherwise. Or are you also basing it on what you saw at MSU. Not trying to bust balls.

I think the problem with Cousins is this. He will play well making him too expensive, or he will play like shit and we won't want him anyway. I think the biggest favor Cousins can do for us is to light the world on fire and get Washington behind us in the draft, and also price himself out of our range. I'd consider a 3-4th rounder, but I don't think that would get it done. Anything higher and I start to get an itching sensation adjacent to my sphincter.

Also, it's tough to see why Chicago would consider letting Cutler walk. McCown has been lights out for sure for the last month, but the dude is 35 and there is a decade of shit preceding this last month. Is it possible that he Gannoned himself and is now SuperQB!? Of course it's possible. But that's a hell of a risk to take IMO.

So if Cutler has worn out his welcome and Chicago wants to move in a different direction, but they are not completely sold on McCown...aren't they looking at the same pile of mediocre reaches that we are? Makes no sense for then to let him walk.

Nicastro13 wrote:Anyone else interested in the 3 game showcase of Kirk Cousins?

I am. Not so much tonight indoors, but I want to see him spin it next week outside against Dallas and in last week vs. Giants outdoors in this slop.

There is nothing to dislike about the way Cousins runs a team and controls his offense. Dude is smart, big enough, etc. But if people don't like Hoyer's arm they shouldn't want anything to do with Cousins either.

I like the guy. I've watched average armed guys succeed on the lake front.

But I ain't giving up a shitload for him either.

I'm curious as to what made you arrive at that opinion. Was it just the game in Cleveland last year? Because the guy has about 30 pass attempts in the league otherwise. Or are you also basing it on what you saw at MSU. Not trying to bust balls.

I think the problem with Cousins is this. He will play well making him too expensive, or he will play like shit and we won't want him anyway. I think the biggest favor Cousins can do for us is to light the world on fire and get Washington behind us in the draft, and also price himself out of our range. I'd consider a 3-4th rounder, but I don't think that would get it done. Anything higher and I start to get an itching sensation adjacent to my sphincter.

Well I know he's bright. It's been widely reported and commented upon. And one of his major attributes coming into the league was his leadership ability and understanding of schemes and defenses.

I thought he was impressive in 2nd half against Browns and he was impressive against the Ravens when he came into that game last season as well.

The poise is evident and so is the preparation he puts in.

Physically he's limited though. He's not getting to the edge in the way guys like RG3 or Luck can. He's not big enough to shrug guys off like Ben.

I think there's a lot to like but I think the price is steep to go out and get a guy like that.

Still, if I can upgrade (and if he is one) I'm willing to part with that 2nd first rounder for whomever it takes to upgrade.

Madre Hill, Superstar wrote:Which goes to my point: The higher the draft pick, the more likely you're to land a guy closer to the perfect model you're aiming for. There ain't no guarantees, but the odds are in your favor. And you need that strong durable guy with something more than air between his ears if you want to do more than hoist division banners.

This is true, but taking a second round talent in the first round doesn't magically making him as likely for success as a first rounder. He's still as likely to succeed as a second rounder.

If the Browns think Carr is a 2nd round talent but take him #5 because "well, we need to draft a QB and we think he's better than any of these other assholes so we better make sure we get him" that doesn't all of a sudden give Carr the upside of a properly rated #5 pick.

Nicastro13 wrote:Anyone else interested in the 3 game showcase of Kirk Cousins?

I am. Not so much tonight indoors, but I want to see him spin it next week outside against Dallas and in last week vs. Giants outdoors in this slop.

There is nothing to dislike about the way Cousins runs a team and controls his offense. Dude is smart, big enough, etc. But if people don't like Hoyer's arm they shouldn't want anything to do with Cousins either.

I like the guy. I've watched average armed guys succeed on the lake front.

But I ain't giving up a shitload for him either.

I'm curious as to what made you arrive at that opinion. Was it just the game in Cleveland last year? Because the guy has about 30 pass attempts in the league otherwise. Or are you also basing it on what you saw at MSU. Not trying to bust balls.

I think the problem with Cousins is this. He will play well making him too expensive, or he will play like shit and we won't want him anyway. I think the biggest favor Cousins can do for us is to light the world on fire and get Washington behind us in the draft, and also price himself out of our range. I'd consider a 3-4th rounder, but I don't think that would get it done. Anything higher and I start to get an itching sensation adjacent to my sphincter.

I'm assuming his position is based upon IF Cousins plays the next 3 games and IF he plays well. I agree that what we have seen of him THUS FAR is no way a basis to go sacrificing first rounders.

motherscratcher wrote:Also, it's tough to see why Chicago would consider letting Cutler walk. McCown has been lights out for sure for the last month, but the dude is 35 and there is a decade of shit preceding this last month. Is it possible that he Gannoned himself and is now SuperQB!? Of course it's possible. But that's a hell of a risk to take IMO.

So if Cutler has worn out his welcome and Chicago wants to move in a different direction, but they are not completely sold on McCown...aren't they looking at the same pile of mediocre reaches that we are? Makes no sense for then to let him walk.

I think itll be telling to see how Chicago handles it at this point. They rushed him back against the lions only to have him hurt again, when they shoulda just went with McCown from the start, may even of won that game. Now after McCown has been lights out Tres is saying Culters prob a go on Sunday. If they keep bringing him as soon as possible they must feel he is their QB and should point to them signing him after the year. Thats what I think and a buddy of mine who is a big bears fan thinks too.

Jay Cutler is at one extreme; he's the only starter since 2011 whose QBR has actually increased (from 54.8 to 63.9) under duress. Say what you want about Cutler, who has battled groin and ankle injuries this year and has had seasons in which he's lost bushels of points to sacks and fumbles: In the face of danger, the man keeps his composure.

It'll never happen, most likely as a result of no interest from either side, so it probably isn't worth too much discussion, but if Cutler hits the open market, any QB-needy teams that don't pursue him are stoopid. Even the team picking #1 overall.

Not us, of course. We won't pursue him, because we're too smart for that.

Gotta believe the Bears will re-sign him or re-sign him and deal him. Love the way the guy competes and throws and moves. But always been just a bit too big of a dick to ever put it all together. Wonder if that's been beaten out of him some or he's matured beyond that.

Yep, definitely a dick, and leadership is probably his biggest question mark. But I've always thought he was a better-than-his-numbers guy (better IMO than the QBs on 3 of the last 6 champs), and I'd love to see what Norv could do with him. He'd be a rare opportunity on the open FA market if he gets there.

Cutler & Gordon, Joe, re-sign Mack, in the draft get Watkins + some OL upgrades + a new RB...

2014 would be a lot of fun. At least in the fantasy version of reality where our FO does this...

motherscratcher wrote:Also, it's tough to see why Chicago would consider letting Cutler walk. McCown has been lights out for sure for the last month, but the dude is 35 and there is a decade of shit preceding this last month. Is it possible that he Gannoned himself and is now SuperQB!? Of course it's possible. But that's a hell of a risk to take IMO.

So if Cutler has worn out his welcome and Chicago wants to move in a different direction, but they are not completely sold on McCown...aren't they looking at the same pile of mediocre reaches that we are? Makes no sense for then to let him walk.

Ask a Chicago fan if they're willing to let him walk.

It's not a sure bet at all that he stays.

But it's a pretty sure bet he doesn't come to Cleveland regardless.

Yeah, but fans are stupid. Again, where does his replacement come from? It seems to me that Chicago fans screaming to get rid of Cutler and hand the keys to McCown are the doppelgängers of the Cleveland fans who call up Chuck Booms to sing the praises of Colt McCoy.

What would you think of a Cleveland FO that would let a guy like Cutler walk with nothing to replace him but Josh McCown? Would that inspire confidence?

Eh, either way, you're right, he ain't gonna end up here so it don't make no nevermind.

Jay Cutler is at one extreme; he's the only starter since 2011 whose QBR has actually increased (from 54.8 to 63.9) under duress. Say what you want about Cutler, who has battled groin and ankle injuries this year and has had seasons in which he's lost bushels of points to sacks and fumbles: In the face of danger, the man keeps his composure.

It'll never happen, most likely as a result of no interest from either side, so it probably isn't worth too much discussion, but if Cutler hits the open market, any QB-needy teams that don't pursue him are stoopid. Even the team picking #1 overall.

Not us, of course. We won't pursue him, because we're too smart for that.

Gotta believe the Bears will re-sign him or re-sign him and deal him. Love the way the guy competes and throws and moves. But always been just a bit too big of a dick to ever put it all together. Wonder if that's been beaten out of him some or he's matured beyond that.

Yep, definitely a dick, and leadership is probably his biggest question mark. But I've always thought he was a better-than-his-numbers guy (better IMO than the QBs on 3 of the last 6 champs), and I'd love to see what Norv could do with him. He'd be a rare opportunity on the open FA market if he gets there.

Cutler & Gordon, Joe, re-sign Mack, in the draft get Watkins + some OL upgrades + a new RB...

2014 would be a lot of fun. At least in the fantasy version of reality where our FO does this...

Nicastro13 wrote:Anyone else interested in the 3 game showcase of Kirk Cousins?

I am. Not so much tonight indoors, but I want to see him spin it next week outside against Dallas and in last week vs. Giants outdoors in this slop.

There is nothing to dislike about the way Cousins runs a team and controls his offense. Dude is smart, big enough, etc. But if people don't like Hoyer's arm they shouldn't want anything to do with Cousins either.

I like the guy. I've watched average armed guys succeed on the lake front.

But I ain't giving up a shitload for him either.

The irony being that if he plays well, it'll take a shitload to pry him out of there. Specially with the RG3 sitch being what it is.

Yep- I'd give up that Indy first and an additional pick somewhere. It'll take a lot, but Washington needs to recoup a pick or 8 themselves and they can't keep them both forever. Cousins would be restricted FA after next year, no?

Make the case for me that Cousins and Hoyer have never been seen in the same room together. And Hoyer will have had a season and 2 off seasons in the system. You already have Hoyer and thus there's no opp cost.

Nicastro13 wrote:Anyone else interested in the 3 game showcase of Kirk Cousins?

I am. Not so much tonight indoors, but I want to see him spin it next week outside against Dallas and in last week vs. Giants outdoors in this slop.

There is nothing to dislike about the way Cousins runs a team and controls his offense. Dude is smart, big enough, etc. But if people don't like Hoyer's arm they shouldn't want anything to do with Cousins either.

I like the guy. I've watched average armed guys succeed on the lake front.

But I ain't giving up a shitload for him either.

The irony being that if he plays well, it'll take a shitload to pry him out of there. Specially with the RG3 sitch being what it is.

Yep- I'd give up that Indy first and an additional pick somewhere. It'll take a lot, but Washington needs to recoup a pick or 8 themselves and they can't keep them both forever. Cousins would be restricted FA after next year, no?

Make the case for me that Cousins and Hoyer have never been seen in the same room together. And Hoyer will have had a season and 2 off seasons in the system. You already have Hoyer and thus there's no opp cost.

I just ask "why"?

I can't honestly make that case. Other than Hoyer being three years older and Cousins being an inch or two taller. In general I'd be willing to use the second 1st rdr in a package to get a guy they liked though. One with some skin already in the game and not a complete guess like most college QBs.

If I think about it long enough, in the little action both guys have seen, they're quite similar. Hoyer maybe a bit more mobile/athletic and Cousins a bit more cerebral. And I'm an acquisition cost guy, so you're right. Wouldn't make sense for Cousins.

Skins shoulda dealt Cousins before this three game stretch was forced upon them.

They blew their chance to "Scott Mitchell" some team. Or, as the youngsters call it "pull a Flynn"

After watching him for a couple years at MSU, I'd be shocked if he was halfay decent. And for a guy who is supposed to be cereberal, damn, the guy threw a lotta dumb passes in college.

As far as Cutler, I kinda agree with Hoodoo, that he might be better than the numbers.....but once I get to the point where I'm feeling that way for, like, 6 years, I start to wonder if he is what he is.

I'm having trouble understanding this thread. It doesn't work. None of them work. Tim Couch remains far and away the best quarterback drafted by this team. I would not draft a qb in this draft with all the draft picks. I draft every other position. I focus on offensive line...linebacker DBs and WRs. In the mid rounds I may look at a running back. I do gag in my mouth looking at the Bengals getting Giovani Bernard in the 2nd round and comparing his talent to Trent Richardson. I am afraid of what this team might do as they thought Josh Gordon was a waste of a supplemental pick. At this point I just prefer we go into 2014 with Hoyer and Campbell both. I could care less about any quarterback in college right now.

I'm having trouble understanding this thread. It doesn't work. None of them work. Tim Couch remains far and away the best quarterback drafted by this team. I would not draft a qb in this draft with all the draft picks. I draft every other position. I focus on offensive line...linebacker DBs and WRs. In the mid rounds I may look at a running back. I do gag in my mouth looking at the Bengals getting Giovani Bernard in the 2nd round and comparing his talent to Trent Richardson. I am afraid of what this team might do as they thought Josh Gordon was a waste of a supplemental pick. At this point I just prefer we go into 2014 with Hoyer and Campbell both. I could care less about any quarterback in college right now.