Now, Diari de Girona has some fantastic photos of the scene on the steps of Girona Cathedral, with new images of Natalie Dormer, Dean-Charles Chapman, Jonathan Pryce and more. Reportedly, Finn Jones and Roger Ashton-Griffiths were also on set, though not pictured.El Punt Avui has set photos from yesterday’s filming of the big scene including the above listed actors, director Jack Bender, and a septa with Margaery that we’ve been informed is Hannah Waddingham as Septa Unella.

Photo: X. ISERN

In the photos above and below you can also see members of the Kingsguard, Sparrows and the Faith Militant prepping to film a tense moment.

Photo: X. ISERN

Photo: X. ISERN

More photos of the Kingsguard and Tyrell soldiers from yesterday, courtesy of Diari de Girona:

Photo: Marc Marti/ DDG

Photo: Marc Marti/ DDG

Photo: Marc Marti/ DDG

Photo: Marc Marti/ DDG

Photo: Marc Marti/ DDG

Photo: Marc Marti/ DDG

And in other Spain filming news: According to El Punt Avui, shooting will also continue on Saturday (September 19th) at Castell de Santa Florentina in Canet de Mar, where Game of Thrones will be shooting a medieval meal with chefs from England. This tidbit solidifies that Canet de Mar will be used for Horn Hill, along with the scene spoilers we’ve heard concerning the location. This news certainly whets this writer’s appetite for the new season! What about you? Let us know below!

“La importància del moment ha fet aterrar a Girona tota la cúpula de la productora i els principals actors segueixen de prop els assajos.” I think Finn and Ashton-Griffiths may have been simply in Girona, I think that’s what they mean; that the actors are there to film in the city. Not necessarily in that scene (though maybe that too.)

the description for this scene leaked. you might want to add it to the post:

“It begins with the High Sparrow going down the Sept’s stairs while the people applaud him. He explains that Queen Margaery has joined them in accepting the power of the Faith. Just then, Jaime Lannister bursts into the scene, on horseback and leading an army of a hundred and forty Tyrell soldiers, and demands that the High Sparrow free Queen Margaery. Suddenly, the gates of the Great Sept open —it is Tommen Baratheon, followed by Queen Margaery and the Kingsguards, who are bearing the Faith Militant’s sigil instead of the Royal sigil. The king and queen have accepted the High Sparrow’s reformed faith, and they are acclaimed by the people. It is emphasized that this is only the first part of the scene; the rest will be filmed today, and it is expected to be a trascendental scene in which the two factions come to blows.”
Confirming 4 things:
1) The High Sparrow is a genius, solidifying the hold of the Faith on the Crown. In practice, he is a Pope-King now. 2) The King basically answers to the High Sparrow from now on. 3) The Tyrells are back as major players, although they respond to the Faith as well. 4) Cersei is cornered by everything and everyone in King’s Landing.
From http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0944947/board/thread/248344205 and translated from the orginal report (http://www.elpuntavui.cat/cultura/article/19-cultura/895261-latac-al-temple.html?cca=1

Interestingly, that’s the summary I myself did in the comments of a previous article in this website, based on a translation. WOTW didn’t report on it, so I assume the source isn’t that reliable and they couldn’t corroborate it, or they may be waiting for today’s filming, in order to tell the story of the whole scene.

Oh no. That’s not what I meant. I wasn’t trying to claim credit. I’m just saying what I wrote is more of a summary than a proper translation of the article. I don’t even speak Catalan; Google translate is simply quite reliable from Catalan to Spanish.

I thought what was interesting after clicking the link were photos depicting Tyrell soldiers practicing a fight scene with what appears to be a stunt coordinator. I read a rumor from someone who witnessed today’s shoot that the scene at the Sept steps devolves into a major fight between the sides, if true, I wonder who survives and who doesn’t, which could be fun to watch come May 2016.

No sighting so far of the black horse with Tyrell symbols.I’m still wondering who’s gonna ride that.It’s confirmed it can’t be Tarly so who is the other one?A random Tyrell guard?That would be weird,to have two riders and one of them to be just someone unnamed.Or maybe there are more mounted knights with Jaime until at some point and there just aren’t any more photos with the other horses.That could explain it.

While currently there don’t seem to be spoiler code instructions present at all… I’ll say it again: Spoiler code instructions should be at the point of commenting, not at the head of the comments section (as it was previously). Basically, where it reads, “Your email address will not be published,” would be a great place for spoiler code instructions in red type. It’s a design flaw that has the most obvious tell: people are always asking how to do it. Even when they were posted.

And know I say this with the warmest of regards for a well-managed site.

Cersei will be even more pissed when she realise they’ve got Tommon under their claws.
I wonder if she agrees to Jaime wanting to release Margaery, in order to get Tommen back.
I’m afraid this Faith Militant stuff will be poor naive Tommen’s downfall.

Where is Lena Headey, btw? Probably doing at lot of indoor scenes. I wonder if she will even try to use the Mountainzombie or get revenge in this season. I hope she will burn down Kings Landing at some point, but not this season. And when she does, Jaime must slay her and then he’ll kill himself as well. The twin thing. Would be epic. But NOT before last season or so. Those characters are too awesome.

I thought the earlier spoilers were that Margaery is released peacefully, not that the situation escalates into an armed clash. If the king’s with the Faith and commands no violence (as Tommen would, since the idea of shedding blood near the Sept was repugnant to him), surely everyone has to stand down?

so i did a small bit of sleuthing and noticed that nell tiger free and bran were hanging out on sept 12th (twitter), almost 2 full months after they first appeared in belfast. if the sixth season begins right where the fifth left off (seems very likely by the way they set up all the cliff-hangers) let’s spot them two scenes with myrcella: some ship-based action, and some wake/viewing scene as per joffrey and tywin. we have to assume both of those would be in belfast, indoors. SO, we now have those two down. if nell tiger free pops up again at any point, especially if it’s not at the soundstage in belfast, we know that she survived.

as an aside, i’m rooting for her because, from the perspective of pure old school scheming and manoeuvering, i like the idea of trystane sitting on the small council, trystane trying to place her on the throne by offing tommen, the maggie-the-frog crown prophecy coming true, a lot more than i like the idea that she’s toast and trystane is in a dungeon or back in dorne.

Cant believe they replaced Aegon acquiring the Faith with Aged up Tommen getting the faith or converting to it.

This changes so many things, makes Dany alot less Grey and now it seems entirely justified that she take down these religious zealots, whereas Aegon its an actual dilemma, and the Faith arent “evil” rather just small folk trying to keep check and balances on the highborn.

Man, I would love to play a member of the kingsgard. I don’t need any lines or my face somewhere. I don’t need any camera pointed at me. I just want to be one of those Kingsgard extras standing around in the backround. You will never be able to look more badass than in Kingsguard amor!

At least it looks like Marg gets to keep her hair up to that point unlike Cersi.

Though the outfits of the Faith Militant are pretty underwhelming. No armor and apparently no weapons but cudgels wouldn’t tend to fare too good against armored opponents. Guess the HS is going for winning over one or more armies to his side through the King and Queen?

Agreed.No more dilemma about taking down a presumed Targaryen for Dany,no more problems.Also some well placed rapes to make the audience hate Euron with a passion and there you go,root for Dany peasants.Hope this is not where the show is going and Dany will face some serious challenges,inside her I mean.But yes,cuting YG and making all Targ loyalists just support Dany kinda affects that in a way.

I could see that happening, too. Episode 6×06 feels like the right moment to kill off the last Lannister kid and it could be the reason why Jaime leaves KL shortly after this. Maybe Cercei sends him away for failing to portect their children once again or he flees the city.

The question is, who would be responsible for the kingslaying of poor Tommy?
– The Faith? Seems unlikely if Tommen becomes one of them and the High Sparrow’s “puppet”.
– The Tyrells? But why?
– The Sandsnakes again? Maybe Cercei has Trystane killed and Doran orders Tommen’s assassination as revenge? Does not seem likely though.
– Maybe there will be a riot and the smallfolk will rebel against him because he is a product of incest (they called him “bastard” when he first approached the Sept in season 5) or against the Tyrells if Olenna stops sending the Reach’s crops to the capital like she threatened in 5×07 and Tommen will be a “collateral damage”?

I wonder how long they make the horse (horses, but only the grey one is shown above) stand around without something to eat. In the second shot, you can see they’ve got him covered up in a nice scrim sheet to keep his tack clean, and there’s 2 red buckets for water nearby, but no forage. It’s not good horsemanship to keep them from eating for more than a couple/few hours.

I just mentioned Euron because he will be an enemy for Dany,point of my reply was that the cut of YG makes it easier for Dany from her moral point of view.I don’t want to get to much into this,I just saw another post and agreed to it.

Gold will be their crowns and gold their shrouds … oh yeah, this could be where Tommen ends up getting a stray arrow or sword in the neck and the prophesy is fulfilled. Cersei will then turn fully mad and burn down not only the Red Keep, but all of King’s Landing (and thus the Sparrows as well) in true Nero-style. (I know, it’s a film invention, but still an iconic image.)

That’s why you aim for the legs! Or if they’re on horses, aim for the horse’s legs. Then you can hit one of those fancy flange decorations on the top sides of the helmet, rip it off and bash their heads in. 😆

Awesome news, thank you.
What really has me confused though is the bit about the two factions coming to blows.
Who and why? Both Tommen and Margaery seem to’ve submitted to the High Sparrow, so who with any sort of real power is there even left to take the other side?

Aren’t the remaining Tyrells and Lannisters unlikely to? I mean, it’s one thing to fight the Faith Militant, but to oppose their own children in an armed conflict … ? Familial love aside, wouldn’t that be considered treason?

Possibly. Or he might turn out to be an ironic sort of ally. What Euron and the Ironborn are going to do in Winter or mean to any of the major characters’ stories is very hard to pin down. It’s too late to make Euron some sort of major antagonist, and this is not that sort of story anyway: GRRM is much more into the “every protagonist’s primary antagonist is his/herself” type of story.

Indeed, this season, Euron almost certainly will be a much bigger issue for Cersei, Jaime and Sam than for Daeny. How it will play out, and what sort of character evolution he is going to induce in those main characters? I’ve little to no idea. (I’ll bet that Cersei will try to play Euron off against the Tyrells and get burned in the process: but how badly burned, I’ve no clue.)

I would be fairly surprised if that happens in the book. Many of us have long thought that a three-way struggle between the Church, the Tyrells and the Lannisters will trample the High Sparrow’s movement, albeit at great cost to the Lannisters.

(If anybody is going to join Aegon, then it will be the Tyrells: they were staunch loyalists during Robert’s Rebellion, and the chance to side with a male Targaryen against a female Targaryen or the Lannisters will be very, very tempting to them: particularly if Margaery is lost or extracted from the Lannisters.)

Kyrion: the Faith arent “evil” rather just small folk trying to keep check and balances on the highborn.

Ah, just like in Iran, then….. Seriously, the Faith the worst type of people: those who are convinced that they alone are good. That does not make them “evil.” It does make them dangerous and destructive, however.

Thanks, Sullied. I’m not on twitter or anything, and as a horse person myself who has spent many a year partaking in cavalry re-enactments of different time periods, my concern for the animal’s well-being is paramount.

Excellent. I’ve never quite figured out a likely scenario for Tommen’s death but this could be it. And Jaime’s presence but inability to prevent it would certainly drive him out of KL while pushing Cersei further towards madness. My only question: is this too soon for Tommen to die? If Kevan is already dead, then who assumes the throne? Or is KL thrown into chaos until Dany arrives (whenever that that is).

I can’t imagine that they would they film a death in an open space like this…especially a game-changing death that will alter the balance of power. At some point, this becomes a concern for many of these scenes. Anything “out in the open” will not remain secret for long.

As to who would kill him? Good question. I’d be inclined to think that it is, in some way, the result of “collateral damage” rather than intent.

I pretty much assumed that the Tyrells (and Lannisters) would defer to the High Sparrow’s new power and in return he would be generous and let Margaery go. That is, that it wasn’t his intention to hold Margaery long-term, just as a show of force — “play nice with me or this is what happens”; but after using the stick to establish that he has it, using the carrot and easing up.

It might be one of the Faith. In the pic where there’s a crew member arranging the costume/chain of the actor looks to be an older gentlemen. Also, in the pic where most of the Faith actors are sitting on the steps, to the far right is man in brown robes bending over. Could possibly be him as well. Hard to tell exactly what color his clothes are under the robe.

In the show they are evil, clearly. They arrest Loras just for being gay. The books, they want the Highborn to answer to their crimes, killing of many Septons and Septa’s across Westeros that do good for the smallfolk in particular. Cersei is accused of killing the last High Septon afterall. There is no religious zealotry in the books, Martin isnt making them like Isis or anything. They are rather French Revolution. Aegon would be the Napoleon in the scenario, as Varys already told Kevan that Aegon is basically a working mans king, grew up with the poor, ate with them, worked beside them, and knows that being a king is his duty to the smallfolk, not just his right like Tommen( who will be groomed to be as selfish as most kings in history).

The show is losing a powerful angle with them removing the Aegon character.

Aegon would he the Napoleon in the scenario, as Varys already told Kevan that Aegon is basically a working mans king, grew up with the poor, ate with them, worked beside them, and knows that being a king is his duty, not just his right.

The show is loosing a powerful angle with themremoving the Aegon character.

This would apply somewhat to Dany as well, before her marriage to Drogo. Even her staunch pursuit of ending slavery shows that she still “cares” for the common man.

There’s one thing I don’t really understand. Jaime Lannister comes to the Sept with Tyrell soldiers and they later come to blow with the Faith Militant and other Kingsguards (those accomapnying Tommen and Margaery)?

Fienix: This would apply somewhat to Dany as well, before her marriage to Drogo.Even her staunch pursuit of ending slavery shows that she still “cares” for the common man.

This is where the “A Dance With Dragons” comes in to change Dany. She may care about the smallfolk aswell, but now she cares a lot more about winning and becoming queen through force, and bringing fire and blood to her enemies rather than comprimise. This is her downfall, she cares too much, and will do anything to be queen and give people fire and blood. Dance made Dany basically a villain to Aegon’s much more heroic conquest of Westeros, where he will acquire the Faith and love of the Smallfolk, and Dany will name the new beloved king False and not the real Aegon, she will be hated all across Westeros.

The show removed that(whitewashing Tyrion anyone?) and now made Dany the Hero taking on the Isis/Faith component of Westeros. Seriously, Ill rather read the books then watch this whitewashed crap the show is giving us. Is it “simplistic” for the sake of TV audiences, or is it changed just cause Dan Weiss love’s Dany and want her to be a heroine?

. Dance made Dany basically a villain to Aegon’s much more heroic conquest of Westeros, where he will acquire the Faith and love of the Smallfolk, and Dany will name the new beloved king False and not the real Aegon, she will be hated all across Westeros.

Those who are speculating this may be where Tommen dies, could very well be right! Poor Tom! Question: if Tomen dies, who will be King???

Kosten: What really has me confused though is the bit about the two factions coming to blows.
Who and why? Both Tommen and Margaery seem to’ve submitted to the High Sparrow, so who with any sort of real power is there even left to take the other side?

Perhaps it plays out like this. At the Red Keep, Tommen storms out, to go to the Sept and release his Queen, knowing mommy is either useless at this, or won’t do anything to help Marge. Mad mommy is beside herself with fear at this development and screams at Jaime to go do something and rescue their last remaining child. Olenna also implores him to go rescue her grandchildren. Jaime gathers Tyrell troops and goes to protect his King and Queen. Chaos ensues, battle happens, death might occur.

Kyrion: Seriously, Ill rather read the books then watch this whitewashed crap the show is giving us.

Soooo…. you won’t watch Season 6 and will not be commenting on the “whitewashed crap” any further, yes? 😀

Yeah, he never got the faith or the ”love” of the people in ADWD. I have no idea where this comes from. Either trolling, or someone is angry that the way he tought the story would progress proves to be fals.

Kyrion: In the show they are evil, clearly. They arrest Loras just for being gay.

Which, according to Fox News, is exactly what good people do! In the books, the High Sparrow and his followers are very much religious fanatics. It’s not just about the nobility: they go on and on about sin and depravity and cleaning up that stuff.

Kyrion: There is no religious zealotry in the books, Martin isnt making them like Isis or anything.

You missed it, then: it was all about religious zealotry. (This comes up when the High Sparrow discusses Stannis now being a demon worshipper.) And, yes: GRRM was making them just like ISIS or any of those other groups. It is religious populism.

Kyrion: Dance made Dany basically a villain to Aegon’s much more heroic conquest of Westeros, where he will acquire the Faith and love of the Smallfolk, and Dany will name the new beloved king False and not the real Aegon, she will be hated all across Westeros.

Um, no, it really did not. Yes, Aegon is going to try to conquer, but ultimately it is for the same reasons as Daeny: the moral code that “good” people uphold their family honors, and that part of your family honor is full inheritance of the ranks, titles, etc., of your ancestors.

Moreover, I really doubt that Daeny will become hated throughout Westeros by denouncing Aegon as false. For one thing, plenty of other people are going to denounce Aegon as false for one simple reason: plenty of people stand to benefit from that being true regardless of whether or not it is. (Do not be surprised if the Church is among them, if they survive the melee with the Tyrells and Lannisters.)

However, for Daeny, the issue will not be about denouncing Aegon as false: it will be about whether she honors her commitments to honoring her father AND imposing her relatively egalitarian philosophies AND herself (i.e., her accomplishments, capabilities, etc.), or whether she honors primogeniture and risks letting this upstart who has earned nothing possibly prevent her goals from being attempted. That is how GRRM stories work: the main characters get stuck between equally agreeable/disagreeable options.

Indeed, it is much more probable that Aegon and Daeny will begin as allies in the face of common enemies, but that things will erode from there.

Ultimately, what you are doing here is criticizing the show for not following what you want to see happen in Winter. However, I think that your expectations for what will happen in Winter are (very very!) wide of the mark. Indeed, look at it this way: the fact that they have cut Aegon tells us that they have deemed his contribution to the story unnecessary, and that in itself tells us a lot about how (un)important he might be in Winter.

Book is the book, and the show is the show. Just cause Aegon isnt in the show doesnt mean he will die off without doing anything significant, espescially when GRRM says outright that there will be a Second Dance of the Dragons

Robb Snow: He’ll be one of the first casualties of the inevitable grey plague, and that will be the end of that.

I doubt it will be as arbitrary as that! The whole “gray plague” model seems very implausible to me. Given that GRRM has two more stories planned, and has two primary over-arching plots to settle (the Civil War of Westeros and the Great Ice vs. Fire Ragnarok), I am doubting that there will be any such gray plague.

Now, GRRM has written irrelevant narratives before (e.g., all of the Arianne and Asha stuff in Crows). However, this would dwarf those completely if it is not some setup for some grand “damned if you do/damned if you don’t” decision by Daeny. Still, the fact that B&W deemed it cutable suggests to me that it will be redundant with some other sorts of decisions set up by existing plot and/or character material.

Being me right now is difficult. On one hand when ADWD came out I was a supporter of Aegon being true, that has changed since then. Alltough I liked him more out of frustation, with the way Martin wrote Dany in ADWD.

On the other hand. Seeing all this people eat their words would be so satisfaying.

So am I. I really truly want to know who is playing Arthur Dayne (and Lyanna too) and damn, we know when his scene/s will be filmed in NI but what about the exterior shots of Castillo de Zafra? Wonder if we will see any pics even from afar. Everything about TOJ seems so hush hush, which is understandable of course but come on, throw us a bone here.

Kyrion:Dance made Dany basically a villain to Aegon’s much more heroic conquest of Westeros, where he will acquire the Faith and love of the Smallfolk, and Dany will name the new beloved king False and not the real Aegon, she will be hated all across Westeros.

Book is the book, and the show is the show. Just cause Aegon isnt in the show doesnt mean he will die off without doing anything significant, espescially when GRRM says outright that there will be a Second Dance of the Dragons

The Dance of the Dragons was war between Targaryens. YG is not a Targaryen.

The Dragon Demands:
I pretty much assumed that the Tyrells (and Lannisters) would defer to the High Sparrow’s new power and in return he would be generous and let Margaery go.That is, that it wasn’t his intention to hold Margaery long-term, just as a show of force — “play nice with me or this is what happens”; but after using the stick to establish that he has it, using the carrot and easing up.

Dear Dragon,

a bit off-topic, but you are running that *status of women aSoIaF vs show* over at wikia, aren´t you ? Valiant effort, but flawed.

Could you please rewrite it comparing *status of women in aSoIaF vs show vs real world medieval times vs real world Italian Renaissance* ?

The question is, who would be responsible for the kingslaying of poor Tommy?
– The Faith? Seems unlikely if Tommen becomes one of them and the High Sparrow’s “puppet”.
– The Tyrells? But why?
– The Sandsnakes again? Maybe Cercei has Trystane killed and Doran orders Tommen’s assassination as revenge? Does not seem likely though.
– Maybe there will be a riot and the smallfolk will rebel against him because he is a product of incest (they called him “bastard” when he first approached the Sept in season 5) or against the Tyrells if Olenna stops sending the Reach’s crops to the capital like she threatened in 5×07 and Tommen will be a “collateral damage”?

Well let’s see- who would stand to gain the most out of Tommens death? Chaos in the realm with no real heir to the throne… Perhaps the one who has successfully managed to procure as much power/territory as possible: Lord paramount of Harrenhal, acting warden of the East, potential warden of the North…..

LF is gonna control (at least he thinks) 75% of the realm. Who else would be in such a prime position to simply “take” the throne?

I have a hard time seeing how a fight breaks out. If High Sparrow says Tommen and Marge are cool and she’s free to go wouldn’t Jamie/Tyrell army be like “Yeah, well…um, all right. Carry on then.” I don’t know how a Jamie/Tyrells vs Kingsguard/Faith Militant. Not saying it won’t. Just hard figuring out how.

Greywind:
I have a hard time seeing how a fight breaks out. If High Sparrow says Tommen and Marge are cool and she’s free to go wouldn’t Jamie/Tyrell army be like “Yeah, well…um, all right. Carry on then.” I don’t know how a Jamie/Tyrells vs Kingsguard/Faith Militant. Not saying it won’t. Just hard figuring out how.

Reports indicate the first half of the scene consists of Tommen and Maergery appearng from the holy Sept as knew ambassadors of the Holy Faith, with the second half a battle of some kind. I reckon that the QOT/Jaime flip out when they see how the HS has manipulated T/M and the Tyrell soldiers go bat shit crazy on their orders.

If Tommen dies then who’s going to rule in KL until Dany arrives?! Cersei has barely any power left and the Tyrells don’t have a legit claim do they?
I have no idea who would be next in line. Cersei and MArgery can’t ascend because of their gender. There are no Lannisters/Baratheon’s left ( Unless Stannis has defied death somehow!) I don’t think any Tyrell’s could claim the Throne. If it happens then it would cause chaos as no one has a solid mandate.

Yeah, on a connected note I would be absolutely floored to get Sean Bean being brought back to do the flashback, but I’m kinda worried they’re going to go way younger possibly and not worry so much about the cannon of the timeline.

Apollo: Reports indicate the first half of the scene consists of Tommen and Maergeryappearng from the holy Sept as knew ambassadors of the Holy Faith, with the second half a battle of some kind. I reckon that the QOT/Jaime flip out when they see how the HS has manipulatedT/M and the Tyrell soldiers go bat shit crazy on their orders.

I would assume the QOT would demand the release of Loras, the HS refusing and that is when the shyte hits the fan.

While I don’t share Kyrion’s distaste for the show or opinions on “Aegon’s” role in series, I do think he has the right idea when he suggests Tommen is taking on some of “Aegon’s” role in TWOW, which may result in him being in power longer on the show.

I’ll throw this out there, as George has stated that there will be a second Dance with Dragons, is he speaking in terms of Targaryen vs Targaryen or dragon vs dragon/s? If it’s the latter, then I think Euron could have a part in the dance. I have a hard time envisioning “Aegon” ever having a dragon, especially as I believe he is an impostor.

(Sorry, The Dragon Demands, I’ve no doubt some of the information I’ve utilized and appreciated from that wiki is due to your hard work, and it is much appreciated, but reading that Lena entry made me feel as though I was reading some type of gossip column.)

Not to mention he doesn’t even have a dragon. Here is where it can get tricky. In book, YG makes it back to Westeros first, but without a dragon. Quentin tried and failed miserably. But the show has completely bypassed both of those story lines. So if GRRM has guaranteed a second Dance (and the show keeps true to that bit), then we need to look at who would potentially have the most Targaryen blood, “steal” a dragon and then oppose Dany ‘ s claim.

TheTouchOfFrost: If Tommen dies then who’s going to rule in KL until Dany arrives?! Cersei has barely any power left and the Tyrells don’t have a legit claim do they?
I have no idea who would be next in line. Cersei and Margaery can’t ascend because of their gender. There are no Lannisters/Baratheon’s left ( Unless Stannis has defied death somehow!) I don’t think any Tyrell’s could claim the Throne. If it happens then it would cause chaos as no one has a solid mandate.

I never really thought about it, but you’re right. If Tommen dies there is no heir to the Iron Throne since the king has to be male and from the Baratheon line, which is extinct with Stannis and Tommen (unless Margaery in pregnant with a baby boy, which would only be possible for the TV show of course).
– The Lannisters have no claim to the throne. They were only in power through Cercei’s children who were supposed to be King Robert’s.
– The Tyrells have no claim to the throne as well.

So these are the possibilities:
– Gendry (the last living bastard of King Robert) somehow gets legitimized as a Baratheon and becomes king (maybe the LF’s “handsome young man”?)
– Stannis lives and now suddenly becomes king without doing anything for it, which is highly unlikely, but would be a funny twist considering how hard he tried in the past 😀
– There is some unknown distant Baratheon relative (like “Harry the Heir” for the Arryns)
– The Faith takes over the rule
– The Seven Kingdoms become seven independent kingdoms again
– Chaos breaks loose and we know “chaos is a ladder” for a certain person

Tommen being on the throne isn’t going to be a major obstacle to Dany, the Tyrell’s being major Targ supporters would jump ship, and if Loras is around will attempt to brooch a marriage. The Lannister’s would be all by themselves, everyone else would yield; Dany would then head north to destroy it and the Stark’s, since they were the major supporter for Robert.

Euron has a dragon horn. I always thought it was just bullshit and it wouldn’t work, but with the show now including him, I think he is definately going to fuck shit up. What better way to do that then to steal a dragon?

TheTouchOfFrost:
If Tommen dies then who’s going to rule in KL until Dany arrives?! Cersei has barely any power left and the Tyrells don’t have a legit claim do they?I have no idea who would be next in line. Cersei and MArgery can’t ascend because of their gender. There are no Lannisters/Baratheon’s left ( Unless Stannis has defied death somehow!) I don’t think any Tyrell’s could claim the Throne. If it happens then it would cause chaos as no one has a solid mandate.

Is it at all possible that Margaery is pregnant? Any chance? Well, yes there is a chance of that. In fact, many women get pregnant their first time out, much less nine times in a day over how many days? Wouldn’t that give her baby the right to be next in line with her as Queen Regent?

The ruler doesn’t have to be male, it’s just that all males go to the front of the line. All the Y chromosome heirs have to die before a woman is considered (and then all the men try to get out of it ormarry and take over for her).

The King Who Cares: I never really thought about it, but you’re right. If Tommen dies there is no heir to the Iron Throne since the king has to be male and from the Baratheon line, which is extinct with Stannis and Tommen (unless Margaery in pregnant with a baby boy, which would only be possible for the TV show of course).
– The Lannisters have no claim to the throne. They were only in power through Cercei’s children who were supposed to be King Robert’s.
– The Tyrells have no claim to the throne as well.

So these are the possibilities:
– Gendry (the last living bastard of King Robert) somehow gets legitimized as a Baratheon and becomes king (maybe the LF’s “handsome young man”?)
– Stannis lives and now suddenly becomes king without doing anything for it, which is highly unlikely, but would be a funny twist considering how hard he tried in the past ?
– There is some unknown distant Baratheon relative (like “Harry the Heir” for the Arryns)
– The Faith takes over the rule
– The Seven Kingdoms become seven independent kingdoms again
– Chaos breaks loose and we know “chaos is a ladder” for a certain person

Would certainly benefit LF but I can’t see how he’s going to get on the Throne. For all his tricks he still doesn’t have the resources or name of the great houses. He’s got the Vale and perhaps the north behind him but he’ll never sit the throne. The best he can hope for is to be a puppet master hand behind a figurehead King/Queen.

I can’t see any bastard being legitimised unless interested parties get hold of them. Gendry could be a possibility if LF gets his hands on him. Think Jon has less of a chance as folks who want a Targ have tied their colours to Dany’s mast.

I’m still of the opinion that Trystane take on the role of Aegon. Would keep Dorne relevant and make sense that he’s been protected in his mother’s homeland. Plus if he is in KL he’s in the perfect position if Tommen does meet his fate. I think we’re all speculating wildly at the moment as we don’t really have a clue what will happen IF Tommen does die.

I think the Baratheons have a teeny bit of Targ. blood (so teeny I don’t count it as being enough to be a factor), but I think it’s from quite a while back (I’m sure someone will correct me if I’m wrong on that). If Robert only had a teeny bit, then Gendry has even less. There are others running around with more than Gendry would have. It isn’t like his mother would have been likely to have a single drop.

mau: The Dance of the Dragons was war between Targaryens. YG is not a Targaryen.

The odds of

YG not being a Targaryen given that he looks so much like Rhaegar are mind-bogglingly small. Remember, Aegon looks enough like his father that Tyrion is able to recognize the similarity even though Aegon is disguised.

The “Aegon is a Blackfyre” conjecture has some serious logistical flaws. Aegon Blackfyre would not look like Rhaegar. The odds of a Blackfyre (or Blackfyre scion) being the same age as Aegon are very low.

Conversely, Varys’ explanation is both likely and probable. Getting two toddlers that look indistinguishable (especially to people who do not know the children well) would be childsplay: just got to any daycare, and you can find 2 or 3 kids that look alike to strangers for every single kid. The Mountain crushing the kid added to the luck: but the truth is that one light-blonde haired boy in prince’s clothes will look much like another to anyone who did not know the child extremely well. Moreover, given that people had to suspect that Aerys was going to do something crazy and that Robert was going to win, Rhaegar supporters would have attempted something like this.

Shipp: The ruler doesn’t have to be male, it’s just that all males go to the front of the line. All the Y chromosome heirs have to die before a woman is considered (and then all the men try to get out of it ormarry and take over for her).

So, does this mean that Margaery (or Myrcella if she is still alive) would become the ruler after Tommen’s death? And if Margaery dies childless shortly after Tommen? Cersei?!

Baratheons have some Targ blood in them as Robert/Stannis/Renly’s grandma was one. They’re actually really closely tied as the Baratheon who formed their house was Aegon the Conquerer’s general and rumoured to be his basard brother. They were initially the loyalist house to the Targs which makes it even more ironic that they were the House that eventually supplanted them.

The King Who Cares: Gendry (the last living bastard of King Robert) somehow gets legitimized as a Baratheon and becomes king (maybe the LF’s “handsome young man”?)

That was Lancel. Remember, telling the HS with whom Lancel sinned (or just prodding him to ask Lancel) was a gold-mine for Olenna. Gendry, on the other hand, is no such gift for Olenna: Gendry is offers no weapon against Cersei and no way of getting her grandchildren out of prison. Indeed, legitimizing Gendry hurts Olenna: even if Olenna suspects better, she is hoping that her great-grandson via Margaery is to be a King: and Tommen Stone (or whatever Kings Landing bastards are called) does not do that for her!

(It’s also Storytelling 101: the gun hung on the wall last season had to be fired by the end of last season.)

The King Who Cares: – There is some unknown distant Baratheon relative (like “Harry the Heir” for the Arryns)

There almost certainly are lots of them given how long the Baratheons have been around, and given how many intermarriages there would be among the houses. However, I doubt that one ever will become important. When Tommen falls, the situation could be extremely chaotic: it is quite possible that there effectively will be no monarch for a while.

Fienix: then we need to look at who would potentially have the most Targaryen blood, “steal” a dragon and then oppose Dany ‘ s claim.

Ah, but that’s not going to happen in the books like that: Aegon is not trying to steal a dragon. Quentyn’s role was just a long-drawn out way to free the two dragons: the show can no doubt think of a simpler (and equally believable) mechanism for doing that. Quite frankly, Tyrion’s own curiousity about dragons could be used to set it up (without the liberator flambé, of course!).

As for the Dragon Dance, I, too, am wondering what will come of this. I would have assumed that the time to introduce YG was this year: last year was too early, and YG represents narrative that is largely unnecessary for (and actually somewhat detrimental to) telling Tyrion’s story. However, that was on the assumption that: 1) S6 was telling the Winter story and S7 was telling the Dream story; and, 2) YG would become relevant to the Winter Story for multiple characters.

If it now turns out that Winter will be over S6-7.5 and Dream 7.5-8, and if YG is not relevant until the latter part of the Winter story, then maybe they are postponing him until next year. Or perhaps GRRM has basically pulled a major lapsus and

had YG be just some highly improbable look-alike imposter who adds nothing to the story once he is revealed,

Concerning a rumored battle between Tyrell soldiers and Faith at the end of the scene, if the scene’s filming concluded today and doesn’t continue tomorrow, surely someone was there to witness and/or film it, and would be posted soon on the internet. It is night in Spain now.

Thanks, Frosty and Coleman for the clarification on the Targ. blood. So, Gendry’s great mother was a Targ. If she was full Targ., that means Gendry would be 1/8 Targ., and if she was half Targ, Gendry would be 1/16th Targ.

The King Who Cares: I never really thought about it, but you’re right. If Tommen dies there is no heir to the Iron Throne since the king has to be male and from the Baratheon line, which is extinct with Stannis and Tommen (unless Margaery in pregnant with a baby boy, which would only be possible for the TV show of course).
– The Lannisters have no claim to the throne. They were only in power through Cercei’s children who were supposed to be King Robert’s.
– The Tyrells have no claim to the throne as well.

So these are the possibilities:
– Gendry (the last living bastard of King Robert) somehow gets legitimized as a Baratheon and becomes king (maybe the LF’s “handsome young man”?)
– Stannis lives and now suddenly becomes king without doing anything for it, which is highly unlikely, but would be a funny twist considering how hard he tried in the past ?
– There is some unknown distant Baratheon relative (like “Harry the Heir” for the Arryns)
– The Faith takes over the rule
– The Seven Kingdoms become seven independent kingdoms again
– Chaos breaks loose and we know “chaos is a ladder” for a certain person

Thank you for the information. Still, all things considered, Gendry’s story is all about that he is the bastard of Robert, nothing really ever referenced about being what…1/8th Targ or less? Just hard to think that he would be in contention as being a Targ.

Wimsey

To me, it would seem that if Tommen suddenly started pushing up daisies, that would throw the Throne in chaos. Just about anyone and everyone that thought they even slightly had a claim would come forward. That is why I am going with the Margaery being pregnant thoughts. It would at least buy everyone 7-8 months of time waiting to see if it is a male issue. No?

I think I’ve read that it was never one unified kingdom before the Targs came and conquered Westeros. So once the Targs are all done, it makes sense that it will fracture back into seven again; in fact, it would be interesting if this happens before Daenerys ever makes an appearance, because the Targs were deposed even before she was born, and this interlude between Robert’s Rebellion and the end could be looked upon in later history as just the last few years of it falling apart.

Wimsey: Indeed, legitimizing Gendry hurts Olenna: even if Olenna suspects better, she is hoping that her great-grandson via Margaery is to be a King: and Tommen Stone (or whatever Kings Landing bastards are called) does not do that for her!

I doubt that Gendry is the “handsome young man” as well, I was just thinking about the possibilities. But btw, if Tommen is dead, Gendry gets legitimized through a LF/Tyrell-plot and he is married to Margaery, their child would be the next ruler. But yeah, that is not very likely.

I once read an interesting theory, that Gendry is not a bastard, but in fact Cercei’s first black-haired son fathered by King Robert, who supposedly died of a fever. Maybe that’s a lie and she gave him away instead, because she already hated Robert at that point and did not want to have children with him. That would make Gendry the legitimate heir. I don’t know if this black-haired child was a show-only thing or if it is also consistent with the books, but I doubt that the theory is true anyway.

Yeah, basically this. Trystane also claims Targ blood somewhere in a high-n generation. But since Targ blood, just like king’s blood, is a plot device, if the quantum is supposed to be enough, it will be enough.

Although I don’t really want to see Trystane dragon riding. Gendry, sure, if only to see the look on Arya’s face (s).

uhhhmmm Euron IS evil in the books too in case u didnt know. Hes a blood thirsty murder, and a rapist. Hes Ramsey without the sadistic tendencies although that one is debatable too. I think Euron is very interesting and he sets up some really fun dynamics but i would never root for him and neither should anyone frankly. As for Aegon, the more he appears in the books the worst his character’s development is becoming. Hes started off as the sweet savior we all thought was smart and good then turned into a self-entitled spoiled brat who has fallen into the paranoia of questioning everyone and everything around him including the man who raised him for years and treated him as a son.

But there is also a picture of Natalia Tena in Girona on the same page and I doubt that Osha will make it to King’s Landing, Oldtown or Braavos this season, so it does not necessarily have to be GoT-related.

Yep, and really, anyone with strong Valyrian blood can resemble a Targaryen. I really think it makes much more sense if ‘Aegon’ is false. Nevermind just how much another son of Rhaegar being alive undermines Jon’s backstory. There are hints that ‘Aegon’ isn’t who Varys and Illyrio claim he is.

Off-topic, but as I’m probably going to finish my reread of ASOS within the next few days (I got to the Red Wedding last night, but decided I didn’t want that to be the last thing I read before I fell asleep), I was wondering if anyone has feedback on the Boiled Leather order for reading AFFC and ADWD. I’ve heard only positive feedback on that order of reading, but am certainly open to other feedback.

If there get to be too many posts on it, maybe I’ll start a thread on it over in the forums, and post the link here (although I’m only expecting a couple of responses).

At some point, Jaime is going to say “Fuck the Lannisters”, and head off on his own.

At some point, Brienne will say “Fuck the Starks”, and head off on HER own.

At some point, I’m going to stop trying to make any sort of editing, viewing spoilers on a desktop, or posting on a mobile work, and head off on MY own………I’ll be drinking with the Hound if anyone needs me.

especially because Rhaegal and Viserion are pissed at mom for locking them up in a fucking dungeon just for doing what Dragons do, eat. Its a prime time to lure away emotionally unstable pubescent teenage dragons

The combined books were much more enjoyable using the boiled leather chronological order than my initial read through of AFFC and ADwD. It doesn’t change the fact that some parts were still kind of stagnant and boring but that is just because certain character’s chapters put me to sleep. The flow of the story was great once I combined them on my kindle instead of going back and forth between 2 physical (hard copy) novels

So I imagine that Tommen ordered them to kneel down and follow the High Sparrow’s orders from now on. Now, if there is a fight coming up in the next scene, it has to be between the Tyrell soldiers led by Jamie, who might be late to the show and refuses to kneel, and the FM plus the KG.

At least that’s what I think what the snippets we got seem to indicate. What happens next? Could go a lot of ways. I doubt the Tyrell soldiers will lose a fight against a handful of KG and poorly equipped FM “soldiers”. So I can see the HS taking Tommen and/or Margaery hostage or even threatening to kill them if they don’t give up. My guess is that both Jamie and Olenna will be forced to give in at that point, thus effectively establishing a theocracy with the HS as the new man in power in KL.

Alternatively, the fight described in the spoilers will break out after the above scenario, not before, and end with Tommen’s (and possibly Margaery’s as well) death.

I think it would work better if he turned out to be Elia’s son but Dorne could be a strong faction without the legitimacy. They may just try and marry him off to Dany but I’d prefer her to have another dragon to dance with.
I honestly hope the three heads of the dragon thing is a metaphor as having three characters ride dragons for whatever reason is a bit too corny for my tastes. Dany yes. Everyone else…not so much.

Well that’d be the buffest Marwyn ever. I know he’s not described as stereotypically maester-ish, and is in fact bulky, but this is a bear of a man. Actually, ignore my doubts —It’s a great idea! Now I want that guy to be Marwyn 🙂

I really like the idea of Margaery not just pretending to convert, but to actually do it. Her just playing along until she gets released would be well within character, but from a narrative perspective it opens up just so many more possibilities. I especially like the idea of the FM taking over – we as an audience aren’t supposed to root for them, but the fact that they have the support of the vast majority of the population puts them in direct opposition to characters we are supposed to root for, who don’t have that support and are standing for the feudal system, which a modern audience obviously can’t support either.

Of course we can just root for Cersei to burn the whole place to the ground and for the Night’s King to clean up the leftovers, which is what I’ll be doing.

I can’t buy the argument that Tommen has to survive season six/until Dany’s invasion because there has to be someone on the throne. I think GRRM and the show both made it abundantly clear that whoever sits on the throne will be entirely irrelevant once the WW breach the Wall. Add to that the visions from both Bran and Dany of a burnt KL, where Dany is entering an abandoned Red Keep. To me it’s pretty obvious that there won’t be anyone sitting on the throne when Dany arrives in KL. So I’m pretty sure it will be back to old independent seven kingdom structure (throw in the FM in the mix maybe) or simply complete and utter chaos (LF may even get to rule over the ashes for a short while).

I highly recommend the Boiled Leather reading list for AFFC & ADWD. I’ve read both of those books several times over the years, and I enjoyed them far more reading them in the BL order than individually. The Jon Snow & Sam Tarly chapters, just as an example, are so much better and make more of an emotional impact when read together the way the BL reading list has them. AND it’s carefully crafted to keep the Dorne plot twist… twisty?

They have two units for filming GoT, one is called ‘Wolf Unit’ and the other is called ‘Dragon Unit’. That does not necessarily mean what these units shoot will always involve wolves, Starks, dragons or Targaryens.

I honestly hope the three heads of the dragon thing is a metaphor as having three characters ride dragons for whatever reason is a bit too corny for my tastes. Dany yes. Everyone else…not so much.

I agree! If the three riders thing does happen, I suspect it’ll come across better in the books than on tv. Regardless, I’m really hoping Trystane has nothing to do with it. That guy is about as interesting as a dripping tap, and he deserves it less than fAeg, which is saying something!

With Gendry, I didn’t think he was that critical a character in the books. His role was expanded in the show not only to encompass parts of Edric’s story, but because the actor did well with the role (rather like D&D wanting to give Sophie Turner more to do). So I’m not sure he’ll be part of the end game at all.

Nymeria Warrior Queen:Off-topic, but as I’m probably going to finish my reread of ASOS within the next few days (I got to the Red Wedding last night, but decided I didn’t want that to be the last thing I read before I fell asleep), I was wondering if anyone has feedback on the Boiled Leather order for reading AFFC and ADWD.I’ve heard only positive feedback on that order of reading, but am certainly open to other feedback.

Ooh I’ve never heard of this but just googled it and it looks good! I’m up to AFFC as well, so I’m definitely going to use this method. It may help me to resist my urge to skip some of the Essos based chapters.

If you look closely you will see that they have taken the tack off the horse and the saddle is on the balustrade. You can also see the sponge beside one red bucket where they have sponged off the horse before putting the cooler ( light rug) on. That seems like a high level of preparedness and thoughtfulness so I’m sure they thought to feed the horse too.

How does Natalie Dormer manage to still look fabulous in potato sack chic? lol I was noticing her hair. I’m sure others have commented but I’m wondering how they let her get out without a trim like Cersei.

Also hate to admit it but I’m hoping to see some sweet dopey “zomg I missed you” cuddle fest scene coming from Tommen when he finally sees Marg. Or do you guys think he’ll be more emotionally guarded around her now?

Thanks for the feedback. There were parts of both books which were a slog for me, and I’m hoping the BL order will help. There were some parts I was just literally trying to get through, so I’m sure not only were there things I missed, but things I probably would have enjoyed more were I not so impatient to get through certain sections.

Well, none of them had a maester,septa, and knight all in their service, all while heading to see Daenerys Targaryen. They also didn’t have a “father” who was a famous lord/former hand of the king, who used an alias that was a shortened name of his house’s sigil. All of these things led him to guess the identity of YG, not just the color of his eyes.

No, nothing to clobber here! I would modify it I think that either a son or daughter would inherit: daughters only inherit if they have no brothers. Of course, there would be all sorts of insane angling to set up a regency for the child: basically, whoever came out on top would rule openly for over a decade and could wind up ruling behind the scenes long after.

The only reason that I doubt that this will happen is

Tommen is too young to impregnate Margaery in the books. It was one thing to do it to Talisa – it actually provided a great inside joke – but another to do it to a character when it might alter the larger plot.

Tyrion Pimpslap: All of these things led him to guess the identity of YG, not just the color of his eyes.

It wasn’t the color of YG’s eyes: remember, the eyes delayed Tyrion’s recognition because their contast with the hair dye made them look a different color than they actually were! It was the features that let Tyrion see through the simple disguise. And that’s the key: Tyrion is a savvy person with a good memory and a sharp eye for detail: and what he did was see through a disguise. Indeed, it really is opposite of what would happen: Tyrion is the sort who would see through the imposter!

Tyrion must have been only 7 or 8 the last time he saw Rhaegar, I believe. And do we know if he lived in KL when Tywin was Hand? So I’m not sure I’d trust the memories from when he was a child, especially if he didn’t even spend much time around Rhaegar.

I’m not nearly as convinced in A=Blackfyre as R+L=J, but I do hope he is. I’ve always been partial to the Blackfyres, and I would love to see the sword ‘Blackfyre’ turn up somewhere, perhaps as a gift to ‘Aegon’.

Ever since Sean T Collins (of Rolling Stone) and others put together the BL list several years ago, it would be silly to not utilize it for a AFfC/ADwD reread and especially a first time read. It keeps all the characters in the game and fresh. There are even debates still floating around over the order of specific chapters (like the Dorne reveal), which is intriguing. When TWoW comes out, it looks like there will be even further overlap and yet another BL revision.

I recommend reading the BL list on a Kindle to easily switch between the two, search for cool terms and the xray app , with the Lands of Ice and Fire maps spread out around you. 🙂 Also, keep the Meereenese Blot website and Alt-Shift-X youtube channel, among others, at the ready for some cool insight. Such great stuff out there.

The combined books were much more enjoyable using the boiled leather chronological order than my initial read through of AFFC and ADwD. It doesn’t change the fact that some parts were still kind of stagnant and boring but that is just because certain character’s chapters put me to sleep. The flow of the story was great once I combined them on my kindle instead of going back and forth between 2 physical (hard copy) novels

I’ve not yet done the boiled leather pattern (though I will next time), but in general, most people like AFFC/ADWD better the second time through regardless of what order they choose. It’s hard to say whether the improvement you perceived the second time through was because of the order you read things, or merely the fact that these two books seem to click for a lot of people on re-read.

I like the symmetry of TV Jaime seeing all three of his children die before him while he is helpless to do anything about it, if that’s indeed how this armed clash shakes out.

I don’t see the problem with a pregnant TV Margaery if Book Margaery is supposed to die in TWOW, as many suspect she is. It only messes up the storyline if TV Margaery actually lives long enough to give birth.

Tyrion Pimpslap: Tyrion must have been only 7 or 8 the last time he saw Rhaegar, I believe.

So? Tyrion has a good memory from everything we have seen. And what of that, anyway? It is not too tough to remember things from that age. Moreover, it is not just Tyrion that sees the resemblance: Connington sees it, too.

So, what we then are left with are essentially circular arguments: the fact that they think that they see Rhaegar in YG means that their perceptions are off, and their inaccurate perceptions are in turn used as evidence that YG is not Rhaegar’s son. This is not “wide” vs. “slender” hips here!

Tyrion Pimpslap: I’m not nearly as convinced in A=Blackfyre as R+L=J, but I do hope he is.

It probably would greatly undermine whatever story GRRM is trying to tell. The only conflict YG can offer Daeny is if he truly does come ahead of her given some concept of who should inherit. If YG is an imposter, then it will just be gratuitous plot. The fact that YG where a lot of stuff might happen, but it will all be arbitrary resolution. At any rate, a Blackfyre would be a serious plot lapsus: a Blackfyre scion simply

Wimsey: Unfortunately, the weirnet will be clogged up with Boltons downloading sadomasochistic porn again…..

Fortunately for all Westerosi, including lovers of Bolton, Skaagos and SS torture porn, the CotF designed the weirnet to be decentralized. A few heavy nodes, like WF and for some reason, Deepwood Motte, should not impede the info needs of the rest of the uncivilized Westerosi world. Plus, the CotF have a specific, directed virus ready to go if Ramsay hacks into the Citadel or manages to get a red priestess to think he is AA.

Why are so many people explaining to me that Euron is a bad guy and all that,I never said otherwise.I’ve read AFFC twice by the way and also searched several more times for information.I just mentioned him like maybe a future challange for Dany,my post was about Dany and YG.But again,YG is not part of the show so there is no point of going further with this.
Book wise,I don’t understand why some people stated as some fact in the comments that YG will not sit the Iron Throne.You don’t know that.GRRM said that several people will sit the Throne before everything is done so I would say he has quite a good chance.Jon Con only has to beat the Tyrell host and then go to KL.Not easy,sure,but he is extremely determined to do so,it’s his last wish to do it.It can go either way.You can’t say YG will not sit the Throne as a fact,Winds will tell us that.

KG: Why can’t I accidentally run into Diana Rigg? Do I get to meet my heroine? NoooOOOoOoOOOOoo

(((((((jealousy)))))))

I hear ya. When I was 12 I wanted to BE badass Emma Peel. Though, the way she looks in that fan photo, I could probably walk right past her without recognizing her anymore. To me she’ll always be that lithe young femme fatale in a skin-tight black leather jumpsuit, taking no guff from any man.

Kyrion: the Faith arent “evil” rather just small folk trying to keep check and balances on the highborn.

This is an important point that has been lost due to the showrunners’ decision to delay the introduction of Meribald and cut all the book scenes where Brienne encounters thousands of starving refugees and more than a few wandering Sparrows on the road. The High Sparrow didn’t just spring up out of nowhere and decide to try to take over King’s Landing; he’s a considerably more sympathetic and ethical character in the books – a populist reformer and champion of the poor, rather than a prude out to shut down brothels and dump every keg of wine in KL. But show-only viewers seem to hate the Sparrows because their motives haven’t been properly developed.

In my view there has been a little too much focus on the (admittedly juicy) shenanigans of the aristocracy and not enough attention paid to the fact that the true victims of war are the smallfolk – which is kind of at the heart of GRRM’s message.

It probably would greatly undermine whatever story GRRM is trying to tell. The only conflict YG can offer Daeny is if he truly does come ahead of her given some concept of who should inherit. If YG is an imposter, then it will just be gratuitous plot. The fact that YG where a lot of stuff might happen, but it will all be arbitrary resolution. At any rate, a Blackfyre would be a serious plot lapsus: a Blackfyre scion simply

I believe “Aegon” being legit undermines Jon’s story, in a way. But I’ll focus on Dany. Who says Dany has to know he is false, at least initially? It’s clear, that even if he is an impostor, Varys and Illyrio don’t intend to let that get out, with the possible exception of the leaders of the Golden Company(contracts writ in blood, and all that jazz). Dany can still struggle with the decision of whether or not to trust him, I’m sure Tyrion will advise her on this, and they will eventually meet. Part of the reason I don’t believe “Aegon” vs Dany will be the 2nd Dance Of Dragons that George speaks of is that I don’t see “Aegon” being hostile towards Dany, and I don’t see Tyrion advising Dany to be hostile towards “Aegon”. In the end, I believe it will be the dragons that decide whether “Aegon” is legit. And my guess is still a big fat NO.

mariamb: As to who would kill him? Good question. I’d be inclined to think that it is, in some way, the result of “collateral damage” rather than intent.

I’d say that this story is long overdue for someone to be trampled to death in a crowded, chaotic situation. Should definitely have happened to many at the boarded-up exits from Daznak’s Pit last season.

clearly Tommen would be named Hill as he is a Bastard of house Lannister/the west.
Rivers is for the Riverlands, Stone for the Vale, Storm for the Stormlands, Waters for the crownlands and Flowers, Sand and Snow for Reach, Dorne and North (http://gameofthrones.wikia.com/wiki/Bastardy)

Wimsey: You missed it, then: it was all about religious zealotry. (This comes up when the High Sparrow discusses Stannis now being a demon worshipper.) And, yes: GRRM was making them just like ISIS or any of those other groups. It is religious populism.

I respectfully disagree with this analogy. To my mind the followers of Rh’llor are much more comparable to ISIS and other jihadists; they just like to burn people instead of behead them.

Granted, it has been a while since my last (third) reread of the books, but the impression that I got of the Sparrows was much more like the Liberation Theology practitioners of Latin America. They have a decided flavor of Marxism (without the Marx). I’m thinking that, minus the religious trappings, GRRM may have taken inspiration from Wat Tyler’s Rebellion in coming up with them.

They are fanatics, they brand stars in their foreheads. That is a fanatic.
The High Sparrow tortures Kattleback, says he hurts himself, to feel closer to the gods
They are not some liberation movement, they are simple fanatics.
We don’t see them help the poor, we only see them drag septons out of brothels.
They are more concerned about getting back at the nobles.

And I fully expect the Faith to go batshit crazy in TWOW when their power starts to slip. The only differance is that the show has done this from the begining.
There are planty of signs of the High Sparrow going, full inquisition in the books as well.

And I respectfully disagree, but I saw the Sparrows, and the High sparrow especially, as simple fanatics. I don’t remenber reading of them feeding the poor, or helping those in need, please do point it out if you can. I remenber them closing brothels, beating septons, more or less enlsaving them, and forcing them trough threats too choose the High Sparrow as High Septon

I think that the problem is, populist movements throughout history had a… well, history… of reacting to true injustices with a mixed bag of solutions. From a certain point of view, a lot of people who join ISIS, UKIP, other right-wing parties… Donald Trump… do so in reaction to the excesses of neoliberalism and / or consumerism – a lot of people who joined even ISIS said they did so because it gave them a place, a community, a sense of belonging. It’s just that this homophilia is coupled with xenophobia. Just like Trump talks about taxing hedge fund managers and then swiftly moves on to mass deportations / ethnic cleansing. And, incidentally, building a giant Wall.

It worked for me. On the show High Sparrow is introduced as a humanitarian, feeding the poor, giving away his shoes, asserting that he isn’t special. He doesn’t even seize power over the church in the show, Cersei locks up the High Septon herself. Even his conversation with Olenna Tyrell has him echoing modern occupy wall street type dialogue.

I think that the main difference is that book Cersei is less sympathetic than show Cersei, and so we view the Hype Sparrow as less of an antagonist in the books. But I think that ultimately George is a critic of fundamentalism, and the books will not shy away from depicting the danger of religious fanaticism.

I actually think the High Sparrow is even more unlikeable and batshit crazy in the book. He tortured Osney Kettleblack to a pulp and seemed to revel in it. He says that he enjoys self-flaggelating. He imprisoned Margaery and her cousins on bullshit charges. He’s against anyone who worships a different religion. He thinks that widows are “prone” to sexual sins and that women are ~temptresses~ who corrupt men. He’s vile.

I think that Cercei will burn KL to the ground after Tommen’s death and it will be a ghost town when Dany arrives there (maybe the Sparrows will be wiped out as well). There won’t be anyone literally sitting on the Iron Throne, but that does not mean that there won’t be a ruler. Maybe LF somehow manages to be “King of the Ashes” and to rule from Harrenhal or the Eyrie or the seven kingdoms slip back into independency before Dany arrives.

I always expected the burning of King’s Landing to happen in the season 6 finale, while Dany is finally setting sail for Westeros. But maybe it is a bit early with 2 seasons left. Season 7 will focus on Dany invading Westeros (or whats left of it), but maybe she does not land there in the first episode, but mid-season. There is no real opponent left who could be a problem for her (except LF maybe?). I also expect a phase of the High Sparrow ruling through Tommen, followed by a phase of chaos.

I do like the idea that Cersei burning Kings Landing. But I also think she might be the one to kill Tommen by accident. Her crazy paranoia could be that far gone that she won’t even recognise her own son. Then realizing that she made the prophecy come true herself, she goes batsh*t to KL.

If there is any fighting and it’s on the steps, there seems to be quite a drop off the sides, especially near the top. It’s easy to imagine someone being seriously injured or killed falling or being pushed, accidentally or otherwise. Possible reason for it to kick off in the first place might be Loras’s non-release?

EDIT: Or someone could just get crushed against the steps or sides, there have been many tragedies on stairs like these in real life, particularly if people fall on others below them.

But that assumes that Jon would claim kingship. Moreover, Jon does not offer the dilemma that (legitimate) Aegon does because even if people accept that Jon is Rhaegar’s son, then many of them will not accept that he is legitimate: and thus he would not make part of Daeny feel that she should submit to him.

A decision about whether to trust Jon might exist: but that pales between the decision between honoring primogeniture and family and honoring your own deeds and goals.

WalkerWhite: But I also think she might be the one to kill Tommen by accident. Her crazy paranoia could be that far gone that she won’t even recognise her own son. Then realizing that she made the prophecy come true herself, she goes batsh*t to KL.

Yes, it makes sense that she will be the one responsible for Tommen’s death. Something that she does to protect him or to keep her control over him (e.g. having Margaery imprisoned by the Faith) will backfire on her and ultimately lead to Tommen’s death. That will put her over the edge and she will burn KL down (unless Jaime stops her) and flee to Casterly Rock.

This scenario seems even more likely considering that all characters left in KL will either be dead before she burns the city or have other places to go to:
– Tommen, Kevan and Pycelle will be dead before the burning
– Margaery (and/or Loras) could be killed by the Faith or by Robert Strong on orders from Cercei
– Everyone else involved with the Tyrells (Olenna, Mace, Loras?, Randyll Tarly?) has to go to the Reach to deal with the Ironborn threat at the end of the season
– Jaime and Bronn will head to the Riverlands after 6×06
– Cercei, Qyburn and Robert Strong will escape to Casterly Rock
– The High Sparrow, Lancel and the rest of the Faith will be toast

I think the Lannister end-game will take place at Casterly Rock though i have no idea what they are going to do. They don’t really have the power to oppose Dany’s invasion, but I think Jaime and Tyrion will meet again (it was foreshadowed when he told Bronn that he would kill Tyrion if he ever saw him again). So maybe there will be in a situation where he has to decide between killing Tyrion and killing Cercei, which would be an interesting conflict.

-HS gets into politics, frees Margaery in return for a Tyrell alliance.
-Tyrells turn against Cersei, who has imprisoned Marg at the Keep/annulled marriage/whatever.
-Smallfolk side with the HS and the Tyrells.
-Tyrells and the HS ally with Aegon. If Margaery is alive, possible marriage offer between her and Aegon. Aegon could help them against the Ironborn.
-Tyrells and Aegon defeat Ironborn, besiege King’s Landing, as smallfolk, the Faith, and Tyrell soldiers left in the city battle Lannisters and the goldcloaks.
-Lannisters are defeated.
-Cersei sets city on fire.
-Tommen dies in the battle or in the fire.
-Cersei escapes to Casterly Rock, where Jaime or Tyrion eventually kill her.
-Chaos. Aegon and HS take over.
-Dany lands.

In the show, there’s a more adult Tommen.

-HS gets into politics, frees Marg&Loras in return for a Tyrell alliance.
-Tommen turns against Cersei.
-Smallfolk side with the HS and the Tyrells.
-Tyrells defeat Ironborn, besiege King’s Landing, as smallfolk, the Faith, and Tyrell soldiers left in the city battle Lannisters and the goldcloaks.
-Lannisters are defeated.
-Cersei sets city on fire
-Tommen dies in the battle or in the fire.
-Cersei escapes to Casterly Rock, where Jaime or Tyrion eventually kill her.
-Chaos. HS takes over.
-Dany lands.

Maria: -Tommen dies in the battle or in the fire.
-Cersei escapes to Casterly Rock, where Jaime or Tyrion eventually kill her.
-Chaos. HS takes over.
-Dany lands.

So you think, the HS is ruling when Dany lands? Possible, but I cannot really see him as a major opponent to Dany. He has no military skills and no real army. Wouldn’t the Tyrells ally themselves with Dany once the Lannisters are gone and if there is no other “Targaryen” heir? But yeah, the HS has the smallfolk on his side, which could be a problem… maybe Dany is seen as an invader, not a savior (especially if she brings the Dothraki and/or Euron with her).

The only person I can see as a ruler before Dany lands is Littlefinger. He has the Vale and the Tyrells on his side so far, he is Lord Paramount of the Trident (so he basically rules the Riverlands as well) and if his invasion plan works out he could also become Warden of the North. He has to be somewhere in the picture when Dany arrives. But he has to get rid of the High Sparrow first. I can’t see the Faith cooperating with a brothel keeper.

Don’t you think both the Tyrells and the HS will try to exert control and rule through their puppet, Tommen? I suspect the Tyrells and the HS each think they are being very clever and successful at manipulating/controlling the other. Will be interesting to see how it plays out. I see it ending in ???

In regards to the battle that *might* happen, perhaps it ensues because Cersei has men (sellswords? Lannister men still loyal to her?) infiltrated in either the Tyrell’s army, the FM or even regular KL folks that are instructed to assassinate the High Sparrow/ recapture the Sept of Baelor, causing violence and utter chaos. It would be ironic if Cersei was completely unaware of Tommen’s presence at the Sept, and he dies as collateral damage.

Ah, but this creates the same problem as Aegon Blackfyre. Nephew Aegon creates a true dilemma for Daeny: according to the standard rules of primogeniture, he comes ahead of her. This is true only for Aegon legitimate son of Rhaegar: Aegon Blackfyre does not precede her anymore than Jon Snow bastarad son of Rhaegar does. And Tommen certainly does not precede Daeny: she comes ahead of the Baratheons and, of course, as Tommen actually is a bastard, he’s truly further out of the succession than the minor nobility is.

It might. I’m thinking it might be followed by a sort of transitional period full of chaos. Cersei will want to rule, so will the Tyrells, but neither will have a good claim. The Baratheons are all dead, the Targs are gone, and what’s left of the Great Houses has other problems.
Maybe it brings about a claim from the Dornish. Maybe Margaery will say she’s pregnant with the next king or queen. Maybe it will simply bring about an interim rule by the Faith. Whatever it is, it will leave the door wide open for Dany to make her way to Westeros by the end of this/the beginning of next season.

The only person I can see as a ruler before Dany lands is Littlefinger. He has the Vale and the Tyrells on his side so far, he is Lord Paramount of the Trident (so he basically rules the Riverlands as well) and if his invasion plan works out he could also become Warden of the North. He has to be somewhere in the picture when Dany arrives. But he has to get rid of the High Sparrow first. I can’t see the Faith cooperating with a brothel keeper.

Exactly what I keep saying… He is also acting Warden of the East (so govers around 70% of Westeros) and has the Tyrells over a barrel over Joffreys murder.

I meant Tommen as Aegon in the way he complicates the game, not in how his existence affects Dany’s right to the throne.

Re Aegon: his reality is, imo, immaterial. He might sit the throne, but not long enough to make a difference, which is why the show cuts him. JonCon’s greyscale might be more important, in that it can magically mutate into grey plague and spread. Maybe this is why the show kept that aspect of JonCon, via Jorah.

If I had to choose a real or fake Aegon, I’d pick a real one over a Blackfyre pretender. Martin has enough to do, without going into the Blackfyre mess.

Given how much the Great Houses probably intermarried, and given how long the Baratheons have been around, they are not all dead. Even if they now have different last names, they would know who Tommen’s heir is. In reality, there would be some to-do about it: the Lannister faction would be trying their damndest to pull that person into line or kill him/her and pull the next one into line (until one of them got into line).

However, the fact that GRRM never even brings it up in the books tells us that they are not going there. Whatever happens after Tommen will probably just be it until Daeny takes over. (The book might do a Dance: and I think that it’s still possible that Myrcella will succeed Tommen in the books, although obviously fairly briefly and to no real consequence.)

Just a theory, with some textual evidence, the kind that would be considered foreshadowing if it does happen; so not a closed case at all. Mainly, there is the Mad King’s wildfire buried all under King’s Landing, which gets brought up again pretty much every book, so it could well be considered a “gun in the mantle” waiting to be shot. And who better to shoot the Mad King’s “gun” than the Mother of Madness herself! When Stannis was about to attack the capital, she was the one who began the wildfire plot, which Tyrion took over partly because he believed Cersei could well burn the city down (accidentally, granted.) Then, after Tywin dies, Cersei burns the Tower of the Hand with wildfire, making a spectacle of it, and in those moments she seems to be entranced by the green fire.

Also, there’s an interesting clue in the show : How many times will Cersei say “I will burn this city to the ground if *X family member* is hurt”? She has made that and very similar statements about three or four times already; and remember: dialogue in such a densely packed show is expensive real state. If someone says something a lot, the writers are probably trying to tell us something.

It’s not unlike Littlefinger telling Lyanna and Rhaegar’s story last season; it could be worldbuilding in the books and nothing else, but considering how little time the show has to explain stuff, if they explained that it’s because it will become important (R+L=J).

One example is Cersei burning with dragonfire the Tower of the Hand after Tyrion killed their father there, and being obcessed with the fire burning.

This and the fact that in the show she has said 3 times that she will burn cities to the ground. D&D don’t repeat stuff like this unless it’s a foreshadowing. In S5 they kept showing us Olly’s grim face as a foreshadowing of “For the Watch”.

Thanks everyone. I have noticed she has said ‘burn cities to the ground’ a few times in the show. It would be great if it did happen. Dany’s visions in Season 2 in the house of the undying where she walks in the throne room and it looks destroyed. Maybe from the wars to come, or perhaps from Cersei burning it all? who knows.

I think it would. I believe that the three heads must all be Targs, and Bloodraven is technically a Targ and one of the last ones living (although I suppose one could argue his current state is not exactly “living”). Aemon is gone, fAegon is very likely an impostor (possibly a Blackfyre pretender, although you could argue that still makes him a potential candidate), and I don’t buy into any of the other numerous secret Targ theories out there.

That leaves Bloodraven, who has been pulling strings from behind the scenes from the very outset, probably in more ways than we even know yet. His tutelage of Bran especially will be an essential part of the endgame against the Others. He’s a key player just like Jon and Dany, just in a different way.

I took it to mean that KL might be destroyed by dragons, as the ruins looked damaged in the same manner as Harrenhal which they explained a few episodes earlier was melted by dragon fire. There was also Bran’s vision in Season 4 of a dragon’s shadow moving over KL.

Wimsey: Ah, but this creates the same problem as Aegon Blackfyre.Nephew Aegon creates a true dilemma for Daeny: according to the standard rules of primogeniture, he comes ahead of her.This is true only for Aegon legitimate son of Rhaegar: Aegon Blackfyre does not precede her anymore than Jon Snow bastarad son of Rhaegar does.And Tommen certainly does not precede Daeny: she comes ahead of the Baratheons and, of course, as Tommen actually is a bastard, he’s truly further out of the succession than the minor nobility is.

But none of that matters. That stuff is only relevant as far as peaceful, regular succession is concerned. All that those claims will do once there’s open war is help you to acquire supporters. Dany won’t fail to conquer Westeros because someone is higher on the succession order. Now if Aegon (very unlikely, as he was cut from the show) or Jon manage to get enough support to beat her to it because they can convince people to back their claim, that’s something different, but it’s not that their existence alone will cause any trouble for Dany’s bid on the throne.

I think that the Queen of Thorns will do anything to keep Margaery safe because she is being groomed to be the future Queen of Thorns. Otherwise, House Tyrell is done because there would be no brain among them after Olenna dies. Lady Olenna is going to do whatever it takes to keep Margaery safe and she would most likely sacrifice her own life for Margaery. I don’t know how it will play out but I really believe that is her perspective. Also, Willas and Garlan do not exist in the TV series. If somehow Loras dies, Margaery may marry a Redwynne or Hightower which are the Houses of the Lady Olenna and Margaery’s mom. I think she wants to let it stay in the family bloodline with someone there she can pass the baton to keep the House in good stable hands politically. She would want the game to on in the Reach.

mau:
Every season we are forced to read a bad theory about Tommen’s death.

Tommen can’t die before Dany comes to Westeros. Who will be king after him?

It is turning into rather an obsession, isn’t it. Have you seen that video on Youtube where someone’s got the footage of Karstark murdering the Lannister kids and badged it as ‘Death of Tommen Baratheon leaks!!!!’ Lame. I can’t even decide whether or not the OP is a troll.

Also, there’s an interesting clue in the show : How many times will Cersei say “I will burn this city to the ground if *X family member* is hurt”? She has made that and very similar statements about three or four times already; and remember: dialogue in such a densely packed show is expensive real state. If someone says something a lot, the writers are probably trying to tell us something.

Agreed, and those quotes were absolutely not in the books. So dialogue about pyromaniacy has been invented especially for the show, to what end? I agree that fire will be important in the climax of Cersei’s story. It will be interesting to see how this is the case.

There’s been a hypothesis for a few years now that Jaime will reprise his ‘Kingslayer’ role and kill her so she can’t burn King’s Landing down. This is by people who believe he is the Valonqar.