It's magical full plate. You are allowed to upgrade items and add further effects. There is no house ruling going on. Why does everyone have to whine and b@~%+ all the time? Is anyone going to argue that you cannot enchant a mithral shirt now? Jeez, come on people. If you're going to b##** and moan, at least do it over something real.

enchanting it to +5 is only an additional 16,000 and making it mithrill costs another 9,000.

50,000 for armor. if Ash wants to spend the money. let her.

You can't make it mithral, because it is made out of other materials that make it celestial. It would be like saying make my adamantine armor mithral so I can get the extra bonus.

I assume you have a rule citation to back that declaration up with.

Nicos wrote:

Oh i see the IS a celestial plate.

Yeah, sorry for the confusion Nicos.

I assume you have a rules citation that allows you to replace the items of a custom made magic item that has the materials it is made of in the description and that an editors note says was given a pricing exemption to make it comparable to the exact same item with the material you are trying to replace it with.

Implying that it ain't made out of that material.

Once again, rules manipulation and loophole exploit seeking lead to "why we can't have nice things".

FAQ it if you disagree with me. I know how much you respect the intent of the developers.

It's magical full plate. You are allowed to upgrade items and add further effects. There is no house ruling going on. Why does everyone have to whine and b#%%~ all the time? Is anyone going to argue that you cannot enchant a mithral shirt now? Jeez, come on people. If you're going to b%+$@ and moan, at least do it over something real.

The only magic added to it is fly, which is the once a day command word. You can do the same thing with mithral full plate

CL 8 + 3rd level spell x 1800 (command word) is 43200.

Make that mithral full plate and it cost 52,200.

The Devs try and be nice and make an item practically priced, calling it "Celestial" and adding flavor by making it so only "good" players can make it and then people try and loop home it...

Why we can't have nice things.

If think I'm wrong and the celestial isn't the material (what else would it be since the only spell used is fly...) FAQ it.

You can use the item creation rules to enchant it, still that rules are more like a guideline but it does not matter in this case.

You can not make a mitrhal chainmail into a celestial armor because the celestial armor is made with silver and gold.

Fluff is fluff. It describes it as silver or gold. Those are colors by the way, not just metals. Beyond the magical effects, it is just a suit of chainmail or plate mail. In an antimagic field, it doesn't suddenly become soft and useless as armor if it's golden in color.

I love how you cite fluff when it fits your argument and ignore it when it doesn't.

The pricing is for the item as is, since it is about half of what it would cost to make the same effect with mithral armor.

They clearly did not intend for you to be able to double up your bonuses, but any loophole you can try to squeeze out...

I can only imagine how many cool items the Devs would be able to put out if they didn't have to follow every thought with "But what loophole is some jerk going to try and squeeze out of this so they can 'win' in front of all their friends and feel clever..."

I love how you cite fluff when it fits your argument and ignore it when it doesn't.

Fluff? I cite fluff? Where?

Quote:

The pricing is for the item as is, since it is about half of what it would cost to make the same effect with mithral armor.

They clearly did not intend for you to be able to double up your bonuses, but any loophole you can try to squeeze out...

I can only imagine how many cool items the Devs would be able to put out if they didn't have to follow every thought with "But what loophole is some jerk going to try and squeeze out of this so they can 'win' in front of all their friends and feel clever..."

It's magical full plate. You are allowed to upgrade items and add further effects. There is no house ruling going on. Why does everyone have to whine and b#%%~ all the time? Is anyone going to argue that you cannot enchant a mithral shirt now? Jeez, come on people. If you're going to b%+$@ and moan, at least do it over something real.

The only magic added to it is fly, which is the once a day command word. You can do the same thing with mithral full plate

CL 8 + 3rd level spell x 1800 (command word) is 43200.

Make that mithral full plate and it cost 52,200.

The Devs try and be nice and make an item practically priced, calling it "Celestial" and adding flavor by making it so only "good" players can make it and then people try and loop home it...

Why we can't have nice things.

If think I'm wrong and the celestial isn't the material (what else would it be since the only spell used is fly...) FAQ it.

I love how you cite fluff when it fits your argument and ignore it when it doesn't.

Fluff? I cite fluff? Where?

Quote:

The pricing is for the item as is, since it is about half of what it would cost to make the same effect with mithral armor.

They clearly did not intend for you to be able to double up your bonuses, but any loophole you can try to squeeze out...

I can only imagine how many cool items the Devs would be able to put out if they didn't have to follow every thought with "But what loophole is some jerk going to try and squeeze out of this so they can 'win' in front of all their friends and feel clever..."

That's called being a good game designer.

Notice you didn't address the pricing discrepancy issue.

I would say that you know in your heart of hearts you are trying to exploit unclear text that clearly intended for this to be an as is item with qualities similar to mithral armor, but cheaper.

But you think finding loopholes is 'clever' and stopping you from finding them is 'cruel'.

You can make the item with Mithral plate mail for 19140 (8640+1500 plate, +9000 mithral), which is still more than the 12,500 for Celestial, and the editors note pointing out the advantage over Mithral Full plate.

The intent was never to have you be able to do both, which is clear from the editors note. They were not trying to create a zero armor penalty full plate you could also fly in.

I would say that you know in your heart of hearts you are trying to exploit unclear text that clearly intended for this to be an as is item with qualities similar to mithral armor, but cheaper.

But you think finding loopholes is 'clever' and stopping you from finding them is 'cruel'.

Man if you actually contributed something as much as you tell other people what they should or should not do, do or do not think, or generally be a jerk; you could have figured out how to bring people back to life with Fighters already.

I checked the price. It's darn cheap for what it does. I'd have priced it higher if it were me designing the item. But it wasn't, and I didn't, and it doesn't say it was made out of mithral, which is exactly what the rules do when it's made out of a special material. I posted the links already, but items do that sort of thing. So at the moment, it's legal to make a suit of mithral (or adamantine) full plate. Just like it's legal to make a cold-iron life-drinker if you want to.

Do you want to sit her and whine about it some more just to try and argue with me, or can we get back to discussing Rangers? I said what my money would be spent on; but that I only provided the necessary bits for someone to take and make their own ranger with; because maybe they won't be able to get celestial plate armor; or maybe they might decide they want to ride around naked for all I know. It's the convenience of the player.

But it doesn't matter. You'll piss and moan no matter what I say or do. You always do. You're the soul reason I wish there was an ignore feature on these boards.

I'd like to see the rule were it says Specific Armor/Shields/Weapons can't be improved upon.

I wouldn't. I'd have to tell my players that they can't modify their mithral chain shirts and mithral chainmail anymore, or that they can't enchant their cold iron longswords, or their silver daggers, or make an assassin's dagger out of a masterwork admantine dagger, or tell them that Demon Armor is actually made out of some obscure material called "demon" that has no hardness or HP rules anywhere in the game.

Last time I played a Fighter was in Council of Thieves, and he was "good with his hands". He was a Two-Weapon(archetype) Fighter with Sleight of Hand and Disable Device as class skills through Traits, and used Cestus. He was fun. Kept fighting a fire elemental after he had been caught on fire. Got killed by a water elemental that tugged me into the water. :)

Sorry, i couldnt respond to some messages i saw because they were locked, so here is my 2 cents on why some people think fighters suck.

Wizard Player: Well once again it looks like our big bad Fighter did not contribute very much. Whats wrong? That greatsword and full-plate to heavy for you?

Wizard, Bard and Paladin players all laugh.

Fighter Player: Oh sorry, when i made this character i thought that we might actually be sent on a time sensitive mission. Like when the evil necromancer was using an ancient artifact to summon legions of undead to terrorize the local towns and farms who were not able to defend themselves. I thought we might want to confront him as soon as possible, but i see i was wrong considering it took us 4 days to clear a 3 floor dungeon to get to him. Oh well, i guess we should go report our "success" to whoever is still alive.

Wizard, Bard, Paladin and GM get a sour look on there face and go post on the forums about how poorly the fighter did in there most recent game. GM makes plans to fudge the numbers next session to kill the Fighter for insulting the scenario he made.

The fighter is good because he does not rely on a LIMITED amount of spells or spell-like abilities to remain effective. If you cast all your high level spells every single encounter, or waste all of your smite evils on a grasshopper who looked at you wrong, or use up all your ki or rage or whatever class your playing, then you should have to live with those decisions. Instead your weak GM and his weak scenario allow you to just set up camp
and sleep away those silly things called LIMITS. You should be basing your use of spells and abilities based on how the current encounter is goin, not based on trying to out-do the fighter just because you can, mabey then you could get through a dungeon without sleeping after every 3 encounters.

Classes with spells or spell-like abilities are balanced with the classes that do not have them because there is a LIMIT ( notice the capital letters yet, they are important)...

Last time I played a Fighter was in Council of Thieves, and he was "good with his hands". He was a Two-Weapon(archetype) Fighter with Sleight of Hand and Disable Device as class skills through Traits, and used Cestus. He was fun. Kept fighting a fire elemental after he had been caught on fire. Got killed by a water elemental that tugged me into the water. :)

Nice. I too am fond of Fighters as dual wielders. My biggest complaint with Fighters is their single minded focus on +hit and +damage, but with dual-wielding, that seems pretty awesome. My favorite Fighter I played was a desert-dwelling elf from a nomadic tribe who was searching the world for her half-elven daughter. Racial option for the campaign allowed me to trade their proficiency with elven weapons for their tribe's favored weapon "dust blades" (these shared the stats with the Kusari-gama found in the 3.5 DMG, which was 1d6/x2 slashing, light, reach, trip, disarm). She dual wielded them. It was during the Pathfinder Beta, actually. She did a good job of carving stuff up, and the GM at the time was very apt to let me pull off odd stunts that weren't exactly rules legal (like using combat maneuver checks to use the chain-weapon to grab onto objects and stuff :P).

The rules state that it's possible to add upgrades to any magic item, which should hold true for specific armor/weapons. The question is whether you can add specific armor/weapon abilities onto generic armor/weapons, which is much less clear.

You're the soul reason I wish there was an ignore feature on these boards.

Most people just get tired of beating their heads against the wall and give up, like Bob did earlier.

I actually enjoy these discussions, as invariably as the discussion plays out it becomes clear there is no loophole or exploit you don't believe the devs fully intended, even when the Devs are in the thread telling you otherwise.

I think you are very creative, but I also think your games are completely off the rails. Which would be fine if you weren't trying to take everyone else's games off the rails with you.

There is also no rule saying ham sandwiches can't raise dead characters.

The item is cheaper than the mithral plate mail that would do the same thing, and there is an editors note making reference to this very fact.

The item's only magical enchantment is "fly"

At best it is a loophole, at worst it is an exploit. FAQ it if you think I'm wrong, but your argument is that the devs wanted a +3 full plate, zero AC penalty item you could craft for under 25K.

I don't buy that for a second.

you mean 34K. uograding it to +5 increases the overall total to 50K.

50K is a lot of money to spend on armor. and the only special ability so far is flight once per day. this is a lot of money to spend on armor.

if you want to spend 50K on this expensive super armor, go ahead. considering how hard it is to raise ability scores due to the limited available resources to do it with. it's going to be pretty difficult to get that 26 dexterity unless your character generation method is extremely generous.

You're the soul reason I wish there was an ignore feature on these boards.

Most people just get tired of beating their heads against the wall and give up, like Bob did earlier.

I actually enjoy these discussions, as invariably as the discussion plays out it becomes clear there is no loophole or exploit you don't believe the devs fully intended, even when the Devs are in the thread telling you otherwise.

I think you are very creative, but I also think your games are completely off the rails. Which would be fine if you weren't trying to take everyone else's games off the rails with you.

House rules are for your house.

I think you vastly over estimate what goes on in my games. My group was playing just yesterday. The most over the top thing we did was trick some orcs into getting run over by some oxen my 1st level druid trained (they help carry the goods, and steamroll uglies :P).

The most mechanically muchkiny thing I did the entire game? At one point I was separated from the party due to plot reasons (I was acting as a messenger somewhat) and was driving a wagon on a road and was ambushed by some goblins who were related to the plot. After taking an arrow covered in giant wasp venom (yay good Fort), I commanded my trained animals to fight the goblins and I laid in the back of the cart, prone, shield in hand, and taking a total defense (+4 AC vs ranged from prone, +4 AC vs ranged from cover, +4 AC vs ranged from total defense, +2 AC from shield, gave me a 29 AC vs their incoming arrows at 1st level).

And...um, I do carry a potted plant with thorns around with me; which I used to keep our fighter from getting mauled by rapid dogs when I cast entangle to keep him from getting swarmed (only caught a few of them though, since my save DCs are only 15 right now). You might consider that some sort of abuse (carrying around your own plants) but we thought it was kind of flavorful in a tree-bender kind of way.

50K is a lot of money to spend on armor. and the only special ability so far is flight once per day. this is a lot of money to spend on armor.

if you want to spend 50K on this expensive super armor, go ahead. considering how hard it is to raise ability scores due to the limited available resources to do it with. it's going to be pretty difficult to get that 26 dexterity unless your character generation method is extremely generous.

The point is that the celestial plate mail cost 25k (sale price) or 12,500 to make. If you believe it can also be made mithral, you then have a +12 armor with no armor check penalty and at 10% spell failure chance for less than it would cost to make the same thing as just mithral full plate.

It would actually be cheaper to buy this than to enhance mithral full plate with the same thing, but less Armor check penalty.

if you want to spend 50K on this expensive super armor, go ahead. considering how hard it is to raise ability scores due to the limited available resources to do it with. it's going to be pretty difficult to get that 26 dexterity unless your character generation method is extremely generous.

Would you believe that's one of my more common beefs with Fighters? By the time they're 20th level, they can prance about in armor with a very high maximum Dexterity allowance, but unless their Dex scores are pretty stellar, they can't really take advantage of their own awesomeness. :(

For example. Let's say the Fighter just uses plane Celestial Plate Mail (it's good stuff, and probably my favorite armor). He easily has a +10 maximum Dexterity bonus. But you need a 30 Dexterity to actually take advantage of that. So I suggested Adamantine might be really sexy (mithral gear is usually chosen over adamantine since the max dex is arguably better than the small DR, but fighters kind of rock adamantine). But then Nicos pointed out that at level 19 you get no benefit from Adamantine Armor at all (which I wasn't thinking about, but it's entirely true) which is kind of a bummer. :(

If it were me (and I'm not saying it is); I'd use the extra cash that I would have used as a Ranger (like you said, 50k is pretty pricey for defensive armor) and instead got the sucker decked out in bling. Armored kilt brings it to heavy armor but as a Fighter I'd move in it fine and with no check penalties (no extra cash needed); and then I could take that extra cash and toss some fortification or 24/7 energy resistances or some skill buffs on it or something. Or I'd see if our resident spellcaster (or NPC who owes me a favor?) could put a few more x/day abilities on the armor. A few of them Death Ward 1/day would be +11,520 gp at CL 8, and maybe something like CL 8 divine favor 1/day (going with the holiness theme here) would let you get a +2 luck bonus on attacks and damage for 10 rounds per day.

50K is a lot of money to spend on armor. and the only special ability so far is flight once per day. this is a lot of money to spend on armor.

if you want to spend 50K on this expensive super armor, go ahead. considering how hard it is to raise ability scores due to the limited available resources to do it with. it's going to be pretty difficult to get that 26 dexterity unless your character generation method is extremely generous.

The point is that the celestial plate mail cost 25k (sale price) or 12,500 to make. If you believe it can also be made mithral, you then have a +12 armor with no armor check penalty and at 10% spell failure chance for less than it would cost to make the same thing as just mithral full plate.

It would actually be cheaper to buy this than to enhance mithral full plate with the same thing, but less Armor check penalty.

Do you honestly believe this was the Dev's plan?

Eh, too be fair Ciretose, it wouldn't be the first time Paizo has effectively invalidated an existing item with a new one. I'm still a little annoyed by the market price / creation cost of those continual flame ioun stones, when the PHB already has everburning torches (literally the same item except it's continual flame cast on a club, and is dispellable) which are around double the cost.

EDIT: *old fart voice* Why back in mah day, we had to buy our own burnt out gray ioun stones, and we had to spend 50 gp market price for a rock that did diddly squat! And then we had to get the continual flame cast on it ourselves, which meant a material component, and possibly NPC spellcasting services! You'd end up paying more for the ioun stone that way, but at least you got to keep your hands free! And you needed both hands free, because you had to walk back and forth from the dungeon, up hill, both ways, in the snow, with a boner -- er I mean a necromancer! :P

Sometimes I wonder what they're doing with spells these days. They've got this spell you can get at 9th level now (and a bunch of classes get it) called Fickle Winds. It's basically your own personal wind-wall spell that makes you immune to missile weapons like Wind Wall, except your own missile weapons completely ignore it, and you can affect you, your familiar, and your phantom steed in a single casting if you want. I've come really close to banning that spell outright, simply because I think it's really cheap and invalidates entire combat options way too easily. Archery is one of the things I think fighters are really awesome at, and casting this one spell invalidates their entire shtick worse than even Wind Wall did. :(

enchanting it to +5 is only an additional 16,000 and making it mithrill costs another 9,000.

50,000 for armor. if Ash wants to spend the money. let her.

i hate how specific armor is just so "specific". makes it to where DMs like Weekly William won't allow a +5 dwarven thrower or +5 agile dagger of subtlety.

If the DM allows Celestial plate in the first place (I wouldn't). Then if the DM allows non-standard items (enhanced specific items, and specific items made from other materials). And finally if the DM prices the 'celestial' parts as a straight bonus rather than a +# equivalent as well.

Now I agree with you that 'specific' armors/weapons make little sense and should be brought in line. But if you're going to revamp the system then they should separate prices for additional +1s with that for special abilities (e.g. ghost touch).

They've got this spell you can get at 9th level now (and a bunch of classes get it) called Fickle Winds. It's basically your own personal wind-wall spell that makes you immune to missile weapons like Wind Wall, except your own missile weapons completely ignore it, and you can affect you, your familiar, and your phantom steed in a single casting if you want. I've come really close to banning that spell outright, simply because I think it's really cheap and invalidates entire combat options way too easily.

Make a feat and a weapon enhancement that bypasses strong winds. Join the arms race.

They've got this spell you can get at 9th level now (and a bunch of classes get it) called Fickle Winds. It's basically your own personal wind-wall spell that makes you immune to missile weapons like Wind Wall, except your own missile weapons completely ignore it, and you can affect you, your familiar, and your phantom steed in a single casting if you want. I've come really close to banning that spell outright, simply because I think it's really cheap and invalidates entire combat options way too easily.

Make a feat and a weapon enhancement that bypasses strong winds. Join the arms race.

-James

Yeah, but the problem is a feat is so much more of an investment than a spell. Asking Fighters to expend yet another feat to function just seems mean (like I said, I'm really not out to get Fighters here).

The biggest reason I haven't actually banned it is because I have allowed energy bows (AKA "Hank's Bow" AKA "Tashron's Bow") from 3.5. Energy bows shoot arrows made of force and can bypass wind walls, or can be loaded with normal arrows instead (they also scale with the strength of the wielder which is convenient). They're kinda expensive (I think the standard one is around 22,500 gp or so) but it's worth it to a dedicated archer (and maybe some others, since it really is quite an awesome item).

So...I guess in a way I have done what you said and allowed an item-based patch. The fact that shooting arrows made out of energy is wicked cool is a plus on the style scale too. :)

There is also no rule saying ham sandwiches can't raise dead characters.

Ham Sandwich of Raise Dead. One use magic item. :)

ciretose wrote:

At best it is a loophole, at worst it is an exploit. FAQ it if you think I'm wrong, but your argument is that the devs wanted a +3 full plate, zero AC penalty item you could craft for under 25K.

I don't buy that for a second.

Celestial Chain is chainmail. Are you talking about the final AC bonus when you mention fullplate?

I'm going by the fact that celestial chainmail (and celestial full plate) don't have the same armor bonuses or arcane spell failure as regular chainmail, presumable because it isn't made out of the same material as regular chainmail since the only spell used is "fly" for the once a day command word.

I FAQ'ed it, so we'll find out from the Devs, but I feel pretty confident the Devs didn't intended to have +12 armor with no armor check penalty and at 10% spell failure chance for less than it would cost to make mithral full plate with the same command word spell.

I FAQ'ed it, so we'll find out from the Devs, but I feel pretty confident the Devs didn't intended to have +12 armor with no armor check penalty and at 10% spell failure chance for less than it would cost to make mithral full plate with the same command word spell.