Forums

Penn State Topic

Posted by jimmystick on 7/23/2012 10:26:00 PM (view original):I was going to bump this today; I saw somebody else did already. Anybody else disapointed the PSU punishment wasn't more severe? I thought they deserved minimum 4 years with no football games whatsoever. I'd have given them 10

Since NCAA overstepped their bounds to even do what they did, no.

Penn State just got clobbered by an organization whose jurisidiction in the matter was highly dubious, without anything resembling due process, before all the authorities that did clearly have a place in the matter had completed their due process.

I don't care if Penn State ever wins or even plays a football game again, and they deserve everything that has and will come to them from the authorities that are meant to deal with these kind of situation, but this is just the NCAA grandstanding so they can pretend they are doing something about the way football dominates the culture at schools like Penn State.

I think "Lack of institutional control" fits pretty well. PSU signed off on the Freeh report and the NCAA punishment. I'm not sure, from a PR standpoint, what else they could have done but the NCAA didn't step in and say "We're doing this and there's nothing you can do about it." PSU volunteered.

Posted by tecwrg on 7/23/2012 9:07:00 PM (view original):Does anybody here know the protocol that would need to be followed for current PSU players to go to other schools if they wish? Can other schools coaches/AD's contact players they might be interested in, or is the onus on the players to seek out new schools should they want to transfer away from PSU?

I seem to remember while watching the ESPN documentary on the SMU Death Penalty case that after the DP was handed down that coaches from all around the country descended upon the SMU campus to essentially recruit players. Granted, this is different as PSU's program is still intact, but I'm just wondering how the process works.

I would imagine coaches would be allowed to contact the kids. But most colleges have used their 25 scholarships for this season. I can't imagine a big-time school like USC or Alabama sitting on an unused scholarship.

All the players have to do is tell the administration that they want to transfer. Then they will allow other schools/coaches to contact them. The NCAA said they would try to work out the scholarship details on an individual basis since most schools already have reached their scholarship limit. Even schools like Ohio State and USC who have scholarship limitations placed on them right now can get in on the action if the PSU player wishes.

And, word is that the best PSU RB, Silas Redd, has announced his interest for transfer and USC is actively recruiting him. If he goes, there could be a quite a number that will follow... err, so they say. Six weeks before games starts, its hard to believe many will really have a chance to play elsewhere at this late date.

Posted by MikeT23 on 7/24/2012 9:31:00 AM (view original):I think "Lack of institutional control" fits pretty well. PSU signed off on the Freeh report and the NCAA punishment. I'm not sure, from a PR standpoint, what else they could have done but the NCAA didn't step in and say "We're doing this and there's nothing you can do about it." PSU volunteered.

If you take it as just a phrase, sure - but it has an actual definition in the NCAA rulebook - and it has to do with the institution's responsibility for staying in compliance with NCAA rules - none of which cover this situation.

If the NCAA wants to start taking authority in these sorts of matters if they occur in the context of athletic programs - fine. But figure out how you're going to do it and put a process around it - don't just vote your president carte blanche authority in uncharted territory.

The NCAA didn't have to say that - they knew there was nothing, in practice, that Penn State could do. And they inserted themselves into this long before the Freeh report came out.

Schools are going to get a scholly waiver if they pick up Penn St transfers. If half the team transfers I could imagine they shut down football for a season to save themselves from on-field embarrassment.

I agree with Al that the NCAA had no business handing out these punishments. However, I think it will have the desired effect on PSU in particular and around the country in general. Hero worship in college athletics has put PSU in this position... there are many other places where it could do the same unless the greater lessons here are learned.

Posted by cydrych on 7/24/2012 9:56:00 AM (view original):I agree with Al that the NCAA had no business handing out these punishments. However, I think it will have the desired effect on PSU in particular and around the country in general. Hero worship in college athletics has put PSU in this position... there are many other places where it could do the same unless the greater lessons here are learned.

PSU, sure, but that was going to happen anyhow - they will get brutalized by the civil courts, and I would imagine will wind up having issues with the state and the feds as well. But I think the idea that the NCAA's action is going to create some sort of cultural sea change at other schools is a stretch. That's what the NCAA wants people to think though, because I'm sure they aren't planning anything else.

This wasn't a football thing, it was a university thing. I think the NCAA is a bully pushing their nose into something that doesn't directly concern them or at least they have no jurisdiction over. The NCAA laid down the punishments but it was the PSU administration that accepted them and really, public perception being what it is, they had no choice. They were screwed either way.

But my school is already prone to hero worship (Bear Bryant as an easy example) and they are on the verge of doing it again with Nick Saban. I want my school to take particular note of this Penn State fiasco. Not because I think there are pedophiles roaming the campus exactly, but because I'm worried that as a legend grows, there is a lot of pressure to protect that legend at all costs. Many people ended up making bad decisions because of that pressure. That's what happened at Penn State but it could have happened anywhere.

Yes, Sandusky is a scumbag and hopefully we will never hear of a person like him ever again. But the inaction of the PSU officials to do what was right at the potential expense of the legend is what brought us all to this point. The punishments were severe enough that if campuses haven't already learned the lesson, there's no excuse to ignore it now.

There's not much in there I disagree with. My only point is that once the authorities that do have clear jurisidiction have completed their processes, I don't think you'll be sitting here feeling like the NCAA penalties were needed to make sure they had been punished enough to get the point across. I don't think there was any need for the NCAA to step out of its lane in order for you get the result you want.

The NCAA stepped in so a message could be sent. While there may be no "rules" covering their intervention, I don't think they could do nothing(as I implied 8 months ago before we knew of a massive, institution-wide cover-up). The reason the cover-up even came about was because the administration, hired by the school, valued the football program over the right thing. To not punish the school, and the program, would be ludicrous. It would be akin to saying "Well, I guess the judicial system will handle it." And that would extend into something like a murder or a drug ring that the school covers up in order to "protect the program."

Whether the punishment will change the mindset of other administrations is yet to be seen. I doubt we'll get another Paterno situation, coaches don't stay at the same school for their entire career these days, either by their choice or because they don't win. PSU has a couple of rough years in the 80s and early 2000s. Coaches don't survive that any more. So the odds of a decade long cover-up is almost non-existent.

If this was Sandusky running amok, and no trail of cover-up, PSU doesn't get punished. It's one man committing horrendous crimes as an employee. But this extended FAR beyond that. It was the top people in a university covering his ***. As I understand it, there's plenty of folks to blame outside the university, his wife, the police, DA, etc, etc, but the NCAA has no authority over them.

FWIW, I don't think the university will be hurt. They'll sell out their games even if they go 2-10. They'll be paying for 60 less scholarships. Alumni will probably line-up to contribute to cover the 60m fine. But the football program will struggle far beyond the next 4 years on the field.

Posted by MikeT23 on 7/24/2012 10:40:00 AM (view original):The NCAA stepped in so a message could be sent. While there may be no "rules" covering their intervention, I don't think they could do nothing(as I implied 8 months ago before we knew of a massive, institution-wide cover-up). The reason the cover-up even came about was because the administration, hired by the school, valued the football program over the right thing. To not punish the school, and the program, would be ludicrous. It would be akin to saying "Well, I guess the judicial system will handle it." And that would extend into something like a murder or a drug ring that the school covers up in order to "protect the program."

Whether the punishment will change the mindset of other administrations is yet to be seen. I doubt we'll get another Paterno situation, coaches don't stay at the same school for their entire career these days, either by their choice or because they don't win. PSU has a couple of rough years in the 80s and early 2000s. Coaches don't survive that any more. So the odds of a decade long cover-up is almost non-existent.

Like I said, if you want to step in and say we're going to act in these matters - fine - but think it through and put a process around it. I'm even fine with doing so in basically an ex post facto case with PSU - it's an extraordinary circumstance. That's not what happened here - all that's been established going forward is that the NCAA pretty much has discretion to do whatever the hell it wants when it wants to. Which will make it fun the next time a Cam Newton-type situation comes up that they don't have an exact rule to cover and they just throw up their hands and pretend they can't do anything.

There's all kinds of things the NCAA could do that ARE clearly in their jurisdiction to address the cultural issues that exist at Penn State and other big-time football schools - but that will never happen because that starts to really screw with everyone's bottom-line.

I'm not sure the NCAA will be around forever. If they start overstepping their authority, I don't think it would take long for schools, the power-brokers if you will, to say "I don't need to be in the NCAA. See ya." Then they'll go about governing themselves. Several of the large conferences would do just fine without the NCAA.

Nonetheless, I think it's apparent to everyone that the authority figures doing wrong is far worse than a student-athlete doing wrong. Covering up for a pedophile vs. trading autographs for tattoos or accepting free shoes isn't even debatable. The people in charge HAVE to be held to a higher standard. And when groups of those people conspire to cover up one of the worst crimes that can be committed, no one should complain when the thing they attempted to protect is punished harshly.

HA! Just remembered you're a PA guy. You've got Vick and Rapelisberger as major sports figures in your state. You guys don't care what people do off the field as long as they produce on it. You can't be rational when it comes to sports.