Basically, it's 5 pages worth of "Porn is not bad, mkay?". The paper-I'm-responding-to's-author's argument is that Porn is bad because it causes people to have bad attitudes towards women in society. Or something. Yet she herself admits there's no data about porn's effects at a societal level.

How can you claim porn is bad when you have no data? Um, oops... :p

I get grumpy when people try to take my porn away (which I don't look at/read very often anyway). Me grumpy == less-happy society.

It's even more amusing when they try to take it away because it's hurting women. Um, hello? My porn doesn't even have women in it. (Hahaha. Pwned. :P)

(Well, OK, maybe some of it does, here and there. But really, it's more guys than girls.)

Anyway, yeah. I'm just being silly. Nobody's trying to take *my* porn away. But as a general rule, it still bugs me when somebody says "Society should(n't) do X!" without thinking about the fact that "X" is a broad, sweeping generalization to which their reasoning doesn't actually apply in a lot of cases anyway.

Time to step away from the Von Neumann-induced crack (also known as the computer) and stretch for a bit.

I hate the argument that it "hurts women". I'm a woman and it doesn't hurt me a bit. In fact, I rather enjoy it. Men, women, werewolves, whatever. *sticks out tongue* Just kidding. But I don't think it's a valid argument, porn isn't anymore detrimental than any other thing. Obsession is a dangerous thing but porn is no more addictive than any thing else. And men star in porn, too. Are they taken advantage of? In some cases yeah. But the stereotypes portrayed, if you want to argue that they are damaging (I say they aren't unless you're a mindless zombie), are just as damaging to men as women. I would like to see that paper! It sounds interesting.

Yeah... I have a hard time seeing any causal connection there, at least on a larger scale. Individuals can misuse porn in various ways, but is that misuse widespread? My personal experience suggests not... but really, that's just one data point.

I'll try to remember to post it sometime. It hasn't been turned in yet, and I at least want to wait until after the due date (today) has passed.

It's hurt me. Wrecked my life at one point, actually. It changed how I was viewed as a woman. So views must certainly depend on experience. Just as you argue that a person cant make the blanket statement that porn is bad, you cant make the blanket statement that it doesnt hurt anyone.Cause it does.

Just as you argue that a person cant make the blanket statement that porn is bad, you cant make the blanket statement that it doesnt hurt anyone.

This is very true. The main gist of my argument is that we don't have enough information to fully understand its effects on society. Because you're right, sometimes it is used in unhealthy ways and it can cause harm.

For what it's worth, most people I know seem to consume it in a relatively healthy way. They're not addicted to it or obsessed over it, and as far as I can tell it hasn't affected their attitudes towards women -- they treat women with the level of respect due any human being.

While it may not be shown to have an overwhelmingly negative effect on society, I dont see how it's a positive.

In my case, my ex husband wrecked a marriage, spent many thousands of dollars, and since I thankfully left, fell so far into the depths of porn addiction he started preying on young girls. He's now a registered sex offender for "lewd acts with a child under 14".

And I get how many spam emails with the subject "YOUNGEST ON TEH WEB!@ BARELY LEGAL! LOLITA!!"?

Fuck that. I think some are particularly vulnerable to being warped in dangerous, evil ways and porn is a tool and an addiction for them.

While it may not be shown to have an overwhelmingly negative effect on society, I dont see how it's a positive.

Because some people just enjoy it. Some think it's fun and it adds something to their normal experience, with or without a partner. ::shrug::

It's not a positive in the sense that it contributes anything useful to society. It's just another form of recreation.

I tend to file it under the same category as alcohol. A glass of wine or three with dinner is perfectly fine (depending on your tolerances :p). The problems don't start until you get shitfaced and become addicted to it, to the detriment of your life and the lives of others.

In my case, my ex husband wrecked a marriage, spent many thousands of dollars, and since I thankfully left, fell so far into the depths of porn addiction he started preying on young girls. He's now a registered sex offender for "lewd acts with a child under 14".

I don't mean to suggest that porn is intrinsically good or useful, or indeed, intrinsically anything. It has obviously hurt you and others. But at the same time, it has its positive aspects, too.

And I get how many spam emails with the subject "YOUNGEST ON TEH WEB!@ BARELY LEGAL! LOLITA!!"

Yeah, those are pretty disgusting.

Fuck that. I think some are particularly vulnerable to being warped in dangerous, evil ways and porn is a tool and an addiction for them.

Yes, but porn is nothing special in this respect. Alcohol, drugs, video games, TV, and any number of other things can all share the same status. I tend to think that things like porn or alcohol addiction are just symptoms of a larger underlying problem -- and it makes more sense to me to treat that problem, whatever it may be, than it does to attack the symptoms.

Good points, all. I like your views on the subject. A person can be (and many are!) addicted to chocolate chip cookies or anything else, and excess of anything is unhealthy. Porn in particular is hurtful when all partners seem to want from me is a re-enactment of a fantasy they saw in pornography. That's where I get the mistreatment of women aspect of this.. especially since much of it centers around a submissive, unhappy and often unwilling female who gets no pleasure from the act because none of it takes her pleasure into consideration. At least, that's what I've noticed of the small amounts of porn or hentai I unfortunately have been exposed to. I 100% avoid it at all times but the internet is decietful and so are people.

For myself, I wish things had been different and maybe I wouldnt be so affected. Because of what's happened to me I choose to not allow it in my life in any controllable manner whatsoever, including in my relationships. Those I've dated since know up front that if they want to view it, I understand and will not ask them to stop, but I will not have a relationship with them. It's for my own emotional safety.

I guess it boils down to the awful humiliation I endured, and the fact that though I'm not a religious person, I was brought up to believe that pornography is sinful and wrong, and some lessons stick, regardless. (funny how the "alcohol is wrong" lesson didnt stick..)

For myself, I wish things had been different and maybe I wouldnt be so affected. Because of what's happened to me I choose to not allow it in my life in any controllable manner whatsoever, including in my relationships.

mmm. That's perfectly understandable.

It's really ... unfortunate that you went through what you did. I don't pretend to understand it, but you have my sympathy nonetheless.

If you really think that porn is hurting you as a person... time to put a little more space between you and the screen. That mindless pain in your head is actually called eye-strain. Get up and go get a drink of... water... or something.Seriously.L

heh. Well, like ferahga pointed out, it can hurt if used in an unhealthy manner. In that respect I just sort of treat it like alcohol -- perfectly fine in limited quantites, as long as you know what you're drinking and what your tolerances are.

That's just it. Everything is about balance. I'm sorry that people have addictive personalities and I wouldn't want anyone to suffer from it. But is it fair to limit everyone else based on the experiences of others? I can't police the world. I can only police myself. I don't punish others for their likes or dislikes. Neither do I feel I have to share them. I understand that porn,like everything else, can be used to corrupt and manipulate. But as you pointed out, so can alcohol. So can above-average intelligence. Everything has a potential for danger in the wrong hands. As a woman, I don't consider being objectified a terrible thing. I am strong enough, independent enough to see it's a MOVIE. Brokeback Mountain didn't make me think ALL cowboys are gay. Not every woman in porn is submissive. Not everyone is dominant. There is diversity in porn-- there are too many fetishes out there for there to NOT be.

However, I strongly support anyone's right to NOT watch porn and NOT have to witness it just as much as I support my right to watch it in the privacy of my own home or in a theater of my choosing. The choice works fine for most of Europe (*cough* *cough* Amsterdam especially), why does it have to be a problem for the USA?

Hmm. Porn. An interesting subject, to say the least. And one I rip myself to shreds over, time and time again.

I guess porn with women in it would have to be considered separately from porn without women in it. Generally I have much more experience with the latter kind, and I do get worked up about the way women are treated (and portrayed) in porn, most of the time. There's the whole dominant/submissive thing taken to the extreme, and it's usually with the woman being cast in the submissive role. That, I can't stand. And it makes me sick how many guys view women as just an object for their sexual pleasures.

Funny, though. When the porn consists of two guys (I say two just for the sake of brevity, obviously there could be more than just two guys in a given situation) and one of them is clearly dominant and the other is clearly submissive, I don't have a problem with it. I wonder why; I suppose I should. But it doesn't get me all angry like it would if it were a woman.

I really struggle with porn. I'd be lying if I said I never partook in it. But at the same time, when it occupies someone's every waking moment, when they compare their own sexual life 100% to what they see in porn...I think there's definitely a problem there.

I like what you said, though, about how something like that is usually a symptom of a bigger underlying problem. Very true, in my experience.

I guess porn with women in it would have to be considered separately from porn without women in it.

Why?

When the porn consists of two guys ... and one of them is clearly dominant and the other is clearly submissive, I don't have a problem with it. I wonder why; I suppose I should. But it doesn't get me all angry like it would if it were a woman.

I don't get angry, per se, but I do become uncomfortable. I believe this is mostly due to social conditioning -- I've heard many women complain about it in different contexts.

But I don't think that depicting women in repressed roles is any better or worse than depicting men in repressed roles.

Furthermore, I'm not sure the depictions themselves can as a rule be considered problematic ... but we're getting into topics covered in the paper I'm going to post.

I really struggle with porn. I'd be lying if I said I never partook in it.

Well, as I said to ferahga, I don't really have a problem with it if it's used in moderation.

In response to your first question, (and I should've stressed more that it was my own take on it, not how I think society as a whole should view it)...it's really just a product of my own childhood, I think. I'm overly sensitive to women being treated badly because, in my family, it happened a lot. So women being put in any sort of submissive position, sexual or not, makes me extremely upset/angry. Whereas I have the reverse feeling about men...again, all from warped childhood views...but I don't feel bad when men are placed in submissive positions because society typically doesn't feel they should be. But that's a completely different topic altogether!

But I don't think that depicting women in repressed roles is any better or worse than depicting men in repressed roles.

Oh, you're absolutely right about that. For me personally it goes back to what I was just talking about...I guess I should look at it equally...that I shouldn't want anyone to have to be degraded. But then, of course, that opens pandora's box, because some people want that degradation, especially in sexual situations. So it's one of those things that goes around and around in a circle and never really accomplishes anything, I guess.

I don't really have a problem with it if it's used in moderation.

Oh, me either. Moderation's the key word, of course. And I think different rules should apply based on if you're in a committed relationship vs. an open relationship/single. Because if you and another person enter into a commitment to each other, yet one person would rather spend hours every night watching porn than even talking to their significant other...then...I definitely have a problem with that. But as the occasional...stimulus...hey. Nothing wrong with that ^^