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US still pressing allies for tougher anti-piracy laws

Law would give Spain sweeping power to shut down sites quickly.

Despite the fact that Spain enacted an anti-piracy law in 2011 (under pressure from the United States), the country is now working on a new one as a way to keep the Iberian nation off of an American watchlist.

"I believe this reform should satisfy those who are worried about Spain's insufficient level of protection for intellectual property," Wert said in an interview with the news agency.

The new law would target “linking sites” that provide a means to induce secondary copyright infringement, and if passed as currently drafted would give the Spanish government the power to quickly shut down such sites. Fines would also be increased to up to €300,000 ($392,000).

Spain is still the home of RojaDirecta.com, a site that promoted unauthorized sports streams, and whose domain was seized by the United States government, and was eventually returned last year. (The site has since switched to RojaDirecta.me, based in Montenegro.)

The country's largest newspaper, El País, wrote in an editorial (Google Translate) last month: "The proposed solution the government has sought to digital piracy is a patch that will resolve nothing."

it's such a shame that the USA cant keeps it's nose out of other countries business. it's a bigger shame that the USA cant get it's own house in order before interfering in other countries business. it's an even bigger shame that Spain doesn't have the balls to tell the USA to go screw itself and stick up for it's own citizens!! but then, with the record that the Spanish governments have, there is no chance of them doing anything other than caving!!

I think Canada is on the top that list and we're just shaking in our collective boots /s

Actually, The Harper Government has already made some reforms due to US pressure. The most terrible one is making it illegal to break digital locks regardless of the reason. There's some other bullshit in there as well.

it's such a shame that the USA cant keeps it's nose out of other countries business. it's a bigger shame that the USA cant get it's own house in order before interfering in other countries business. it's an even bigger shame that Spain doesn't have the balls to tell the USA to go screw itself and stick up for it's own citizens!! but then, with the record that the Spanish governments have, there is no chance of them doing anything other than caving!!

I'm basing this on the example in the article (sports streaming) - it sounds like a complely justified complaint to ask for tougher laws at that point.

It's completely acceptable to say piracy is bad and push for laws to combat blatant issues. And, yes, embargos and other options exist for these exact reasons. Information and digital items SHOULD be part of trade laws

I think a country should be allowed to govern itself in a sovereign manner, and threats of trade sanctions for internal policy is the sign of a bully and a thug. Bullies and thugs are bad people, and supporting them is a bad action.

Quote:

Would you have the same problem if the US were threating action for Spain not enforcing issues with knock-off products (fake watches, handbags, etc.)?

I am getting really tired of hearing how the U.S. is doing this. Not the writing about it but the fact that as carcharoth stated, media-pushed policy is being given so much power in the first place that we keep hearing how it is influencing law.

In the country, against other countries. It's just too much. This is what happens when corporations and monopolies are given "citizenship" and the power to fund (ie; bribe, influence) public officials to do what they want.

OT: Nothing will satisfy the US anti-piracy regime. The US already has ridiculous, excessive, unreasonable copyright laws and enforcement, and the media industry continues to push for more. The public bears all the burden while the corporations reap all the profits. Complete nonsense.

it's such a shame that the USA cant keeps it's nose out of other countries business. it's a bigger shame that the USA cant get it's own house in order before interfering in other countries business. it's an even bigger shame that Spain doesn't have the balls to tell the USA to go screw itself and stick up for it's own citizens!! but then, with the record that the Spanish governments have, there is no chance of them doing anything other than caving!!

I'm basing this on the example in the article (sports streaming) - it sounds like a complely justified complaint to ask for tougher laws at that point.

It's completely acceptable to say piracy is bad and push for laws to combat blatant issues. And, yes, embargos and other options exist for these exact reasons. Information and digital items SHOULD be part of trade laws

I think a country should be allowed to govern itself in a sovereign manner, and threats of trade sanctions for internal policy is the sign of a bully and a thug. Bullies and thugs are bad people, and supporting them is a bad action.

Quote:

Would you have the same problem if the US were threating action for Spain not enforcing issues with knock-off products (fake watches, handbags, etc.)?

It would bother me just the same. Let Spain govern Spain.

So basically, let's get rid of all international trade laws? Then you'd be fine with a US company completely ripping off a product from say Spain and selling it inside the US? Sorry, you wrote your software in Spain. I copied it, resold it, and since it was in the US, there's nothing you can do about it?

OT: Nothing will satisfy the US anti-piracy regime. The US already has ridiculous, excessive, unreasonable copyright laws and enforcement, and the media industry continues to push for more. The public bears all the burden while the corporations reap all the profits. Complete nonsense.

The problem is with the media industry - there HAS to be some sort of protection, but the media industry is making it difficult to find a middleground.

The problem in this thread seems to be that everyone is hating on the media industry too much to discuss what level of protection should be implemented. Of course, there's also the problem with the crowd that doesn't think ANY level of protection is warranted, but that should be a different debate.

it's such a shame that the USA cant keeps it's nose out of other countries business. it's a bigger shame that the USA cant get it's own house in order before interfering in other countries business. it's an even bigger shame that Spain doesn't have the balls to tell the USA to go screw itself and stick up for it's own citizens!! but then, with the record that the Spanish governments have, there is no chance of them doing anything other than caving!!

I'm basing this on the example in the article (sports streaming) - it sounds like a complely justified complaint to ask for tougher laws at that point.

It's completely acceptable to say piracy is bad and push for laws to combat blatant issues. And, yes, embargos and other options exist for these exact reasons. Information and digital items SHOULD be part of trade laws

I think a country should be allowed to govern itself in a sovereign manner, and threats of trade sanctions for internal policy is the sign of a bully and a thug. Bullies and thugs are bad people, and supporting them is a bad action.

Quote:

Would you have the same problem if the US were threating action for Spain not enforcing issues with knock-off products (fake watches, handbags, etc.)?

It would bother me just the same. Let Spain govern Spain.

So basically, let's get rid of all international trade laws? Then you'd be fine with a US company completely ripping off a product from say Spain and selling it inside the US? Sorry, you wrote your software in Spain. I copied it, resold it, and since it was in the US, there's nothing you can do about it?

That's rather narrowsighted isn't it?

Now, I have only read the Reuters article on this and the wikipedia article on "Ley Sinde", but I would like to say that it seems that the ordeal is more nuanced because the legislation begins to push in to what people might consider their rights.

Reuters wrote:

But under the law, the burden is on copyright holders to lodge complaints with the government, which is slow to act against websites allegedly violating copyright. The new draft bill takes on board recommendations from the IIPA and others to speed up the process of going after the problem websites.

I am not sure of the specifics like this, but looking back at what the IP industry wanted in the US, I wouldn't be surprised if this attempted to shift the burden of proof from one end to the other. Now imagine if you heard in passing that some other country was trying to influence the US government to give some offenders a little less due process than others. Due process is something Americans hold as a clear right we have. Hearing about any influence would piss off a lot of people. Regardless of what it is this is the sort of mess your are going to start wading in to when you start telling another country how they should treat their citizens.

I am not saying that this is means IP should be eliminated, nor am I saying that the US doesn't have an interest, but it goes a little farther than dry trade law.

it's such a shame that the USA cant keeps it's nose out of other countries business. it's a bigger shame that the USA cant get it's own house in order before interfering in other countries business. it's an even bigger shame that Spain doesn't have the balls to tell the USA to go screw itself and stick up for it's own citizens!! but then, with the record that the Spanish governments have, there is no chance of them doing anything other than caving!!

I'm basing this on the example in the article (sports streaming) - it sounds like a complely justified complaint to ask for tougher laws at that point.

It's completely acceptable to say piracy is bad and push for laws to combat blatant issues. And, yes, embargos and other options exist for these exact reasons. Information and digital items SHOULD be part of trade laws

I think a country should be allowed to govern itself in a sovereign manner, and threats of trade sanctions for internal policy is the sign of a bully and a thug. Bullies and thugs are bad people, and supporting them is a bad action.

Quote:

Would you have the same problem if the US were threating action for Spain not enforcing issues with knock-off products (fake watches, handbags, etc.)?

It would bother me just the same. Let Spain govern Spain.

So basically, let's get rid of all international trade laws? Then you'd be fine with a US company completely ripping off a product from say Spain and selling it inside the US? Sorry, you wrote your software in Spain. I copied it, resold it, and since it was in the US, there's nothing you can do about it?

That's rather narrowsighted isn't it?

Now, I have only read the Reuters article on this and the wikipedia article on "Ley Sinde", but I would like to say that it seems that the ordeal is more nuanced because the legislation begins to push in to what people might consider their rights.

Reuters wrote:

But under the law, the burden is on copyright holders to lodge complaints with the government, which is slow to act against websites allegedly violating copyright. The new draft bill takes on board recommendations from the IIPA and others to speed up the process of going after the problem websites.

I am not sure of the specifics like this, but looking back at what the IP industry wanted in the US, I wouldn't be surprised if this attempted to shift the burden of proof from one end to the other. Now imagine if you heard in passing that some other country was trying to influence the US government to give some offenders a little less due process than others. Due process is something Americans hold as a clear right we have. Hearing about any influence would piss off a lot of people. Regardless of what it is this is the sort of mess your are going to start wading in to when you start telling another country how they should treat their citizens.

I am not saying that this is means IP should be eliminated, nor am I saying that the US doesn't have an interest, but it goes a little farther than dry trade law.

I can completely understand people being upset by the shifting burden of proof. That is a major problem and one the US needs to address. Though it somewhat sounds like (from your Reuters quote) that part of the problem is that the Spanish Govt appears to be either a) turning a blind eye to the illegal (by their laws) activity or b) simply really slow to process. Especially in the case of a), the US would seem justified in pushing the issue.

Unfortunately, the rest of the comments seem to be focused on "the US is a bully" and/or "piracy shouldn't be a crime".

Please don't quote him. I blocked him a year ago for being an industry shill troll.

In all honesty I don't think he is an industry shill. From my experience is he has his opinions, which he argues in a very top down way.

Some day, some of you guys will realize there is a whole world out there with different values than those common to internet geeks and pc enthusiasts. A world where your values border on the lunatic fringe.

The thing in Spain is they just make new laws as a patch to previous ones, the IP Law reform is a typical example and even worse because they're making changes without consulting local artists and affected industries, tech and telcos mainly, because they will be turned into a private police whether they want or not

We'll leave aside raising the taxes to nearly anything that looks like cultural/entertainment acivity from 8% to 21% with an exception: books and newspapers which keep the 4%. A word of advice: just look for who's the biggest book publisher in Spain (and also the owner of half the private media groups)

Hmm, if the Spanish are negotiating with the US, how about, for all of our sakes, the Spanish and other nations demand that we pass a decent anti-patent-troll bill in return? I mean, our government won't listen to us, so how about using whatever leverage we can get?

So basically, let's get rid of all international trade laws? Then you'd be fine with a US company completely ripping off a product from say Spain and selling it inside the US? Sorry, you wrote your software in Spain. I copied it, resold it, and since it was in the US, there's nothing you can do about it?

That's rather narrowsighted isn't it?

This has very little to do with international trade law. The US is forcing Spain to reform it's national copyright law / copyright infringement litigation - and I assume their sole intend is to use the Spanish government as a proxy to prosecute copyright infringement under the interpretations and penalties used in the US.The US is imposing on Spain's sovereign right to interpret justice, and decide law and penalty for themselves - just to prevent their own citizens (because Europeans only care about "football") from accessing illegal sport streams.

PS: The US seem fine (or powerless) with the idea that products are copied and resold in China. The metaphor of a bully seems appropriate in this context - Spain being the poor and frail nerdy kid that can't fight back.

Let me first preface it by saying that I am a staunch copyright and patent abolitionist, and I think trademark law should be limited to reasonably identifying product origin or authorization, effectively only being an anti-fraud mechanism. So, trying to scare me with hypothetials is only going to make me laugh.

Quote:

So basically, let's get rid of all international trade laws?

And no, respecting national sovereignty wouldn't get rid of international trade law. You can have international trade law without forcing copyright on other countries. For a century, we told the Berne Convention to go fuck itself, and in that century, we kicked the asses of all their members in the music and flim industries

Quote:

Then you'd be fine with a US company completely ripping off a product from say Spain and selling it inside the US? Sorry, you wrote your software in Spain. I copied it, resold it, and since it was in the US, there's nothing you can do about it?

That's rather narrowsighted isn't it?

Again, I wouldn't have a problem with that because I'm an abolitionist. The only reasonable stick or carrot that can be used in regards to international copyright is reciprocity. Anything else is using an economic threat to force a political agenda on a public that doesn't want a law.

So basically, let's get rid of all international trade laws? Then you'd be fine with a US company completely ripping off a product from say Spain and selling it inside the US? Sorry, you wrote your software in Spain. I copied it, resold it, and since it was in the US, there's nothing you can do about it?

That's rather narrowsighted isn't it?

This has very little to do with international trade law. The US is forcing Spain to reform it's national copyright law / copyright infringement litigation - and I assume, their sole intend is to use the Spanish government as a proxy to prosecute copyright infringement under the interpretations and penalties used in the US. The US is imposing on Spain's sovereign right to interpret justice, and decide law and penalty for themselves - just to prevent their own citizens (because Europeans only care about "soccer") from accessing illegal sport streams.

PS: The US seem fine (or powerless) with the idea that products are copied and resold in China. The metaphor of a bully seems appropriate in this context - Spain being the poor and frail nerdy kid that can't fight back.

What is there to "interpret?" Do you not pay for things that you buy in stores? There is no difference.

America also is not "fine" with the idea that products are copied or resold in China. That's just silly.

So basically, let's get rid of all international trade laws? Then you'd be fine with a US company completely ripping off a product from say Spain and selling it inside the US? Sorry, you wrote your software in Spain. I copied it, resold it, and since it was in the US, there's nothing you can do about it?

That's rather narrowsighted isn't it?

This has very little to do with international trade law. The US is forcing Spain to reform it's national copyright law / copyright infringement litigation - and I assume, their sole intend is to use the Spanish government as a proxy to prosecute copyright infringement under the interpretations and penalties used in the US. The US is imposing on Spain's sovereign right to interpret justice, and decide law and penalty for themselves - just to prevent their own citizens (because Europeans only care about "soccer") from accessing illegal sport streams.

PS: The US seem fine (or powerless) with the idea that products are copied and resold in China. The metaphor of a bully seems appropriate in this context - Spain being the poor and frail nerdy kid that can't fight back.

What is there to "interpret?" Do you not pay for things that you buy in stores? There is no difference.

America also is not "fine" with the idea that products are copied or resold in China. That's just silly.

Perhaps the severity of the crime? (Do a word count on "penalty" in my post.) The whole issue here is Spain's reluctance on the matter. What's next? "US pressures Spain to re-implement the death penalty"?

Internet piracy is also a complex crime. There's a host, persons uploading copyrighted good, and people accessing those goods. Spain might decide it is most efficient or "just" to enforce the law by prosecuting the end-users, which would be their right but wouldn't be favorable to the US, whom might respond with sanctions against Spain.

I'm well aware that the US is not happy with China - but on a matter of IP it's of a much greater magnitude compared to Spain. It was a sneer at how much US is in debt to China and won't man up on the issue. I thought I was being obvious.

PS: In Saudi-Arabia, the punishment for theft is cutting of your hands.

It's impressive how far the studios bribery can go. The reason we're pressing for tougher laws is because the studios are slipping a lot of money into the right pockets. We have the worst government money can buy.

Hmm, if the Spanish are negotiating with the US, how about, for all of our sakes, the Spanish and other nations demand that we pass a decent anti-patent-troll bill in return? I mean, our government won't listen to us, so how about using whatever leverage we can get?