Musings of a fantasy author in a wibbly wobbly world.

On Friday 20th August I went to my local store for a new base unit after “old faithful” finally gave up. I have to say before I go any further that Acer products have always been in my opinion, rock solid and built to last. I had no issues replacing a machine which served well and I consider had value for money. Its a shame then that the purchase was tainted by me having to spend money on software I neither wanted or needed. More on that later though.

With my trusty debit card in one hand and dreams of a weekend tinkering with a new toy, I entered my local store – Comet. Before I go any further I have to say that the service I received was excellent, the salesperson was polite, friendly and knew what he was talking about. The price was also very reasonable and I ended up parting with £399 for a AMD Athlon II Quad Core, 750gb HD, 3gb of DDR3 ram, Nvidia Gforce 9200 (and of course the compulsory installation of Windows 7 )

It was whilst I was being told the spec’s of the models in-store that I noticed the tech sheet for the model I was buying, which came with Windows 7 Home Premium. On the sales sheet for this model it clearly stated that it was not suitable for video/picture editing. Excuse me? I was performing these tasks very well with a machine many years older and with considerably less power. Of course I was doing it with Linux so maybe that’s the answer. I questioned this “fact” with the store to which I was told that the spec requirements of 7 meant that this was the case.

I’ve had the opportunity to play around with Windows 7 for about a month earlier in the year and was very underwhelmed, but that was on a high spec’d machine. I never thought to question performance on your average desktop PC. What on earth will Windows 8 require to edit video’s? Skynet?😉

After the shock of that revelation subsided I asked how I would go about getting a refund on Windows 7. I was directed to Microsoft customer services and so my quest began…..

Before we move on though its worth noting that I have not even booted into Windows once on this new machine. I had already downloaded the 64bit version of Sabayon 5.3 (Gnome) and burnt to disk. Sabayon was booted to the LiveCD environment and installation began as soon as the machine was switched on for the first time.

The Quest for the Refund

21/08/10

My first port of call was Microsoft customer services for the UK. After one of the all too common automated lines, I discovered that on a Saturday I was not going to get any human customer service on this number (unless, apparently, I am a Onecare customer – presumably paying more money to Microsoft. What I did find amusing whilst looking for the customer services number was that Microsoft has a sponsored link that will answer your questions online.

After getting no joy with the phone I was confident that my question could be answered quite simply, after all it was merely “How do I go about getting a refund on an unwanted Windows 7?”. After entering the question I was told there were advisors waiting to answer my question….for a price. Typical. Whilst it was a 3rd party company offering this “service” I should have known – when it comes to Microsoft products, you can never spend enough money.

So since it was a Saturday and all other avenues had been exhausted, I decided upon sending a quick tweet to “Microsofthelps”. You can see that here, but since they have an out of office notice on their Twitter status, I suppose I will have to wait until monday. Where it says:

MicrosoftHelps will be out of the office this afternoon starting at noon PST. We will return on Monday 08/23. Have a great weekend!

Thanks Microsoft, I will. I’m using Linux. I’ll have a good week too if I can get my refund and prevent my money lining your pockets (and have you claim another Windows 7 user stat).

Conclusions

I won’t delve into issues of Microsoft Tax. The subject has been covered enough.

I feel rather resentful that I have to buy a product with no choice as to if Windows is pre-installed. If that in itself was not bad enough, the fact that it’s not obvious on how you go about getting a refund. I wonder if Europe should have been looking into the OEM issue instead of messing around with browsers and ballot screens? Lets get our priorities right eh?

I am unsure when/if I will get a refund, but I will continue this quest until I get an answer (and update in future articles). Should I be successful I will be donating the refund to the FSF and at least then it won’t feel as if my great purchase has been slightly tainted by having to pay for unwanted Microsoft software.

Goblin – bytes4free@googlemail.com

If you are new to this blog (or have not yet read it) please take time to view the OpenBytes statement, here.

Yes; one can build a machine if that’s the road you wish to take. OTOH laptops do not have that convenience. You either get the OS that comes with it or don’t get the laptop. I know System76, Zareason and a few others will give you that choice, but they are not the ASUS, Acer, HP of the commercial world, at least not yet. At the very least, I should have the choice of what goes into the machine I wish to purchase.

In the USA there has been many complaints over the bundling of OS with computers to the FTC. Have they even investigated? It seems in the USA crime does pay.

I think the main reason is the convenience of entering my local store and walking out immediately with the machine I choose.

Also, I just dont have the time to build a machine from scratch. Installing Linux was simple and quick, what took time was the customization to make it totally personal to me which took most of the day.

I have built PC’s from scratch in the past for other people and found that like for like the saving doesn’t justify the investment of time. Call it laziness but I just want to walk into a shop and pick up a PC without being forced to purchase it with something I don’t want.

Whilst you are here Richard and since you are an experienced Windows user, has Comet got it right? Does Windows 7 find the above spec unsuitable merely to edit videos and photo’s? something which I have been doing for years on much lower spec’d machines?

FYI, a friend had problems with Windows 7 telling him that his installation wasn’t legit, it took an hour on the phone with Microsoft to get it fixed. An hour that Microsoft will not pay for. It doesn’t matter that it was there software that screwed up, I can’t charge them back for the time that was wasted (he’s not computer literate and begged for my help).

That information is certainly not true Tim about the system not capable of doing video editing.
I am running Windows 7 Professional 32 bit on a nearly 7 year old Dell Dimension 8300, specs:
– Intel Pentium 4 3.2 GHz
– 2.6 GBs, upgraded from the factory installed 512 MBs of RAM back in February 2006
– nVidia Geforce 5200 128 MB AGP

I have been running the latest Windows Live Essentials 2011 beta on it which features programs such as Movie Maker and Photo Gallery that are more graphically intensive than previous versions and I am able to accomplish those task without any problems at all. I also use Photoshop CS4 on my system for my free lance graphics projects and although Photoshop takes a bit of time to load (like it always does) I am able to do my work in it just fine.

As for relinquishing your OEM license for a refund, this is the responsibility of the OEM. You need to contact Acer support, since OEM’s are the ones who are responsible for the Windows OEM support on their machines. Microsoft only handles support and refunds for retail licenses (upgrade or full versions). Since you did not agree to the Windows EULA, you are still within your rights and should be able to get a refund from Acer for it. Please note, it will be a challenge, but you should be able to get refund from them.

I agree with your post, Win 7 can do all those things with the machine you are using. But on a personal note, get rid of that Nvidia 5200, it`s a horrible card if not one the worst Nvidia has ever produced. I know AGP is pretty much a dead end now but if you can find yourself a reasonably priced 7000 series AGP card (I lucked out and found a BFG 7600GS OC on Craigslist for $20) Windows, Photoshop and the rest of your graphically demanding apps will thank you.

Challenged it? You’re kidding, right? You spent more time cracking jokes rather than calling out the information as false and misleading. Even the title of your post lends credence to the idea you either believed the specs given to you were correct or you wanted to believe them to reinforce your view of Windows being too resource intensive. How about stating the obvious: Comet’s sales information was inaccurate, most likely for the sake of luring those who wish to edit video into purchasing more expensive hardware. But you didn’t. You low balled it into trollville. Didn’t see that one coming. <.<

Two cheeky little posts eh Robotron? – Saw this one second that you slipped in.

Quote “Challenged it? You’re kidding, right?”

Yes – as per the article ” I questioned this “fact” with the store to which I was told that the spec requirements of 7 meant that this was the case.”

Quote “Even the title of your post lends credence to the idea you either believed the specs given to you were correct or you wanted to believe them to reinforce your view of Windows being too resource intensive.”

Really? Notice the “?” anyway it matter not. I asked for confirmation from Winobs at the first opportunity as I said to you before Robotron when you tried to imply I was on some crusade against the MVP program, I have people which I hold a great deal of respect for online who are MVP’s….one of which is Winobs.

Quote ” Comet’s sales information was inaccurate”

I name the store, if anyone connected with Windows 7 wants to challenge them directly they can. If I didn’t you would probably have claimed that it was never said.

Quote “most likely for the sake of luring those who wish to edit video into purchasing more expensive hardware”

I wasn’t prepared to make that assumption, it is up to the reader (and Windows user) to decide. Since I asked for clarification and got it, I think that its up to people reading…don’t you?

Quote “You low balled it into trollville. Didn’t see that one coming.”

What by giving my opinion on my blog? Ok Robotron. Do I need to remind you that your trolling was only silenced (for a short while) when you made an implication about me not purchasing an XP netbook and then had to be shamed by me photographing the aforementioned netbook and tweeting it…..try harder Robotron.

How can I be a troll on my own blog and posting my own opinion? Maybe on planet Robotron thats possible, but here in the real world I am using this blog to post my opinions. If you don’t like it, don’t read.

You didn’t challenge anything, but that won’t stop you from claiming otherwise. You’re screwed at this point. You get your rocks off by pissing all over Microsoft because you just plain don’t like the company. Yet you can’t let your true colors show through to the thousands of fans you want to believe are reading your blog, some of whom wouldn’t listen to you if they thought you were as warped as an old Jackson 5 album left sitting on the radiator. You’re a phony, but you must continue to hide your true agenda. Easier said than done when you face anyone who doesn’t have their head up the FOSS rectum. To your credit, I’m certain you aren’t stupid enough to have believed the sales information. You simply couldn’t resist a flame that was lit for you.
Dude…. I haven’t even seen your twitter page (a favorite tool of the vain), much less checked back on the last page I left you comments. Nor do I have the time to check every day to see if you’ve replied. I’m sure you do, but I’m sure even your doctor would agree you need to get out more in that case. Bottom line: This is your turf and there is no way you’ll let me have the last word. Even if you know I’ve proven you wrong or exposed some weakness in your agreements, you will just ignore it and start going on and on about something else. You only think you’re “winning”, but that’s exactly what I’m banking on in the long run.
For the record, I am trying harder. I could take the easy route and call you a disgusting fat body, but I’m sure you’ll agree that I’m trying to keep things on a higher level. I’ll continue to selectively comment anytime I wish until you break down and start moderating comments. You’re welcome!

Sweet! A tactic right out of Schestowitz’s playbook. The student truly does become the teacher. Now we’re getting somewhere. Make sure mine reads as follows: “This poster is a paid Microsoft shill sent to curtail your freedoms! Rage against the machine, brah! Viva la Résistance!”

Really? Roy, has registration on his site, I do not. You must not read much on the net since the warning message on users who repeatedly exhibit bad behaviour is not exclusive to Roys site. Although it is a damn good idea whoever thought of it and saves me repeating myself to your repeated silliness.

Hi Goblin, hope you are enjoying your new computer. I was using an AMD Athlon II 620 quad for almost a year and found the performance excellent under Sabayon 5.2. Recently upgraded the processor to a Phenom II 1055t 6-core (runs great. I`m a big fan of AMD and at $200 CDN I just could`t say no) I`m sure you`ll have NO problem whatsoever video editing using Sabayon and that quad core. As a matter of fact I used a very similarly specced machine (only difference now is the processor swap) to what you just bought to play DDO under WINE and pylotro, ran it flawlessly at the “ultra-high” graphical setting too, enjoy.

Why is Windows included with nearly every PC sold? One simple word: convenience. Not for you, but for everyone else. That’s what I love about the market. It doesn’t give one damn about you, Tim. It doesn’t care about your personal vendettas or FOSS philosophy. For a huge majority of potential customers, having Windows included is to their benefit, not yours. Don’t like it? That’s just too bad. There’s nothing you can do about it because those like you have too little purchasing power to make any sizable impact on the marketplace. Not that ranting about it doesn’t help, but I think you’d find it easier in the long run to come to terms with the fact you are on the outside looking in. Stop looking. Just pass by and do it your own way.

I am however glad you didn’t go into excruciating detail about a “Windows Tax”. You can better yourself by not using the same inappropriate slang perpetuated by the GNU faithful. Probably the best written response to this comes from a fellow Linux blogger. I admire him because he’s a Linux user with real technical knowledge far above your own, but he’s educated and sensible enough not to be a militant douche bag.

More convenient for you, Andrew. Did you miss that part? You and the others like you who truly care about this are a tiny minority. We do not live in your fantasy world where for-profit entities spend any great deal of time and money to meet the demands of those at the very bottom.

Quote “Why is Windows included with nearly every PC sold? One simple word: convenience”

Well its not for me.

You say:

Quote “Not for you, but for everyone else.”

Which is fine, but I know others that would like to walk into a store and buy an OS’less system. Not all Linux users either…

As usual Robotron you seek to make an implication…. I am not saying that Windows should not be present OEM, what I am asking for is a simple choice not to have it if you don’t want it. Its called choice.

Quote “It doesn’t give one damn about you, Tim”

Maybe not me personally but there are plenty of retailers that cater for the OS’less machine. The point was, they are not as convenient. This article is more about me having to pay for something I don’t want, not the OEM issue which I am led to believe is to be re-looked at shortly.

Quote “That’s just too bad”

Well its not, since Ive managed to get somewhere with my refund (the point of this article not OEM) I’ll be posting how others can do it once I have received my refund.

Quote “There’s nothing you can do about it ”

There is, see above and I’d suggest it was similar views that had Microsoft forced into producing a ballot for browsers.

Quote “You can better yourself by not using the same inappropriate slang perpetuated by the GNU faithful.”

Er Microsoft tax slang……so whats GNU faithful. Just like Tax you have to pay it, just like Windows 7, I had to pay for it. (if I wanted that base unit from Comet)

Quote ” Probably the best written response to this comes from a fellow Linux blogger. I admire him because he’s a Linux user with real technical knowledge far above your own,”

Lol…yep with an article entitled: “there is no Microsoft tax except on lazy twats” I can tell immediately its a real tech knowledge. As to the rest of the blog, Ive never seen it linked in Tuxmachines (mine has)….never seen it linked in Distrowatch (mine has)….never seen it linked on Lloyd Law (mine has) or featured in WordPress (mine has)…I could go on, I need not and in any case this childish “my friend is better than you” doesnt become you Robotron. If I wanted to respond, I could say that my 2yr old lad could come up with better counter posts than you – but I won’t.

Remember your other implication Robotron? the one where you implied I didn’t have an XP netbook (to prove your point then)….. shame I was able to Tweet a photo of it with a little note to you wasnt it.

Your poor attempts to silence with cheap insults, dishonest implication and comments has not gone un-noticed…please continue, you are more than welcome here……

Goblin already responded well to you, Robotron, but I’ll add my 2 cents as well. The only thing being asked for here is choice. Most of these OEMs will let the purchaser customize any aspect of the PC — processor, memory, video card, hard drive, etc– but not the OS. Which is fine, as long as a refund option (or maybe even better, a choice of no OS preloaded) is given for those that do not want to use Windows and do not want to pay additional money for a product that they won’t use.

Consider a different scenario. What if Microsoft had the same kind of influence over all consumer electronics stores that they do over OEMs. Now lets say you are looking to buy a new TV. Except that everywhere you go, the stores bundle an Xbox 360 in with the purchase of a TV–any and all TVs–and increase the price to that of the TV plus the 360. Also the TV/360 must be returned together, there’s no option to get a TV without a 360 or to get a refund on the unopened 360 and therefore pay only the price of the TV.

Want a Wii or a PS3 instead? Tough. Of course you can buy one, but you’ll still end up paying Microsoft for the 360. Already have a 360? Tough. You’ll still have to pay them for another one. Not a gamer at all? So what? Take your 360 and like it, says Microsoft. And pay up.

If that were the case, how long do you think it would be before some sort of market regulator stepped in to correct matters? And yet somehow that’s exactly the situation in the PC market, with no indication that anything is going to be done about it any time soon.

You still need to come to grips with the fact you just aren’t normal. As a customer, your demographic is far too small for any retailer to consider. Rather than man up and do a little more research you wobbled into a store, bought a PC off the shelf knowing full well it had something you didn’t want, then cried about it on-line when you got home. Riveting stuff.

Sorry the blog post hit a little too close to home. I don’t personally know the author, but based on the fact you don’t like it I know it served it’s purpose. Like the author, I’ve also never had anything featured on WordPress. Makes me angry because that’s the first thing people ask me in a meeting. Maybe after we settle our differences you’ll help me get a featured blog so others (on the Internet) will consider me important and thus worth listening to. Only then can I prove my on-line manhood is beefier than others.

What’s that? You found a photo of a laptop with Windows XP running on it? Incredible. Your rock solid proof has made a believer out of me. I eagerly await what wonders you’ll bring me next.

I still don’t think you understand what is being discussed here, Robotron. Consumer choice is the issue. This post isn’t about OEMs preloading PCs with Linux (though that certainly would be nice). It’s about OEMs giving customers an option to obtain a refund on something that they don’t want, won’t use, and therefore don’t need to pay for. I’ll refer you to my previous comment.

What’s that? Most people won’t go for the refund option anyway? Doesn’t matter. The option to take a refund should be offered, because Windows is not required for the operation of the PC. There are other choices, therefore Microsoft is not entitled to guaranteed sales with every PC that goes out the door.

Customer choice is the issue, but there aren’t enough customers to make it an issue worth caring about. OEMs aren’t asking customers if they want cupcakes included with the purchase of a PC because the number of people asking for them is far below the number required to justify the added time, effort, and most of all money that is required to fulfill such a request.

You’ve missed the point Robotron. Acer are quite happy to refund me. Maybe the answer is just to provide the information on getting a refund if they don’t want it?

I’ll be providing the info here once Ive received the check but it would be nice for the end user to be given that on the sale of any PC with Windows OEM. Now surely Robotron even you can’t claim that will be of cost to anyone. Customers do have a right to a refund afterall even if they choose not to exercise it.

Like I say, Im led to believe that the OEM issue is to be looked at again.

Few people ever seek such a refund and yet you are shocked to learn companies aren’t better equipped to handle such a request. A scandal this big simply can’t be ignored. Good thing you’re on the case.

I think its obvious you don’t “leave”, you merely “cherry pick” certain articles. And you admit to pushing buttons? Im not sure what you are trying to achieve but its not working. I took you at face value, answering you as someone who had a different point of view who would often make false implication to try to support that view. You now claim to try to push buttons aswell? ok duly noted.

Quote “You still need to come to grips with the fact you just aren’t normal”

Good try at an insult (wrapped up in the guise of talking about refunds and consumerism) I’ll play along though.

Quote “your demographic is far too small for any retailer to consider.”

Really? So why did the ballot for browsers incorporate little known browsers. I repeat again Robotron, Im not asking for Windows NOT to be present on systems in stores, I am merely asking for the facility to be present so that you don’t have to have it. I am not asking for anything more than that.

Quote “Rather than man up and do a little more research you wobbled into a store, bought a PC off the shelf knowing full well it had something you didn’t want, then cried about it on-line when you got home. Riveting stuff.”

Well firstly this “wobbling” cost £399. Secondly, what choice did I have, there are no machines offered os’less by Comet and I wanted that Acer model. Check yourself. And Im not crying….I can get a refund. Good try Robotron and talking about “manning up” Im not the one who posts as Robotron without any accountability. Why don’t you man up and show us you home page/blog/real email address. Why don’t you stop hiding behind insecure proxies?

Quote “Sorry the blog post hit a little too close to home.”

Er no..when Windows was required (as in the case of the XP netbook for the O2 dongle) I was more than happy to acknowledge that. You remember that netbook Robotron? the one you tried to imply I didn’t have and I had to Tweet a picture to you.

Quote “Like the author, I’ve also never had anything featured on WordPress.”

Yes Robotron, you come here with your claims and your attempts at insults, but we don’t know about any of your “work” do we? It matters not, we’ve covered that topic before Robotron and this is where you can make an implication you are being modest…if you wish.

Quote “You found a photo of a laptop with Windows XP running on it? ”

Er no Robotron, look at the picture. I put a note on the keyboard saying Just for you Robotron heres the link incase your memory is as bad as your eyesight.

I had to take a gamble, but I’m in this for the long haul. I know you are a phony when it comes to your true feelings about Microsoft, but I also know you have a reputation to protect. The laptop could be new. You could have bought it used. You could have taken this picture at your mates house, who incidentally also doesn’t keep his kitchen clean. Or it’s possible you live in the getto and truly have little choice for what Internet dongles you can use. You didn’t want to give your money to a convicted monopolist (love you Roy!), but you really wanted to get your freak on while surfing the net. You just might have sold out for the sake of convenience.

How were you able to wrestle with these demons? What was it like to use an inferior operating system? What was it like having your freedom restricted with proprietary software? Inquiring minds want to know!

Within a few minutes of your implication and with a note? Ok Robotron – I’ll let readers decide…oh lets not forget the accompanying post a year ago when I bought the thing to go on holiday with.

Maybe I have a time machine? Maybe I went back in time a year, bought an XP netbook, wrote that article then returned to the present in order to place a note on it just to disprove your implication….hey you haven’t tried that one yet.

Quote “Or it’s possible you live in the getto and truly have little choice for what Internet dongles you can use. ”

I wouldn’t call my village a getto, but as the article says a year ago I was pushed for time, convenience of a local store and that O2 dongle being the only one they offered.

Quote “You didn’t want to give your money to a convicted monopolist”

Not if I wasn’t going to use it (Windows 7)…In the case of XP I did because I did need it. As I say I wrote the article on the netbook a year ago.

Quote “You just might have sold out for the sake of convenience.”

No, I swapped the Linux netbook for a XP one because it didn’t offer compat with the dongle. As I say, I promote the software that is best for me. For my dongle requirements that was XP, I have no problem saying that nor did I have a problem writing that at the time.

Quote “How were you able to wrestle with these demons? What was it like to use an inferior operating system?”

Well it wasn’t was it? I needed a task performed, XP stepped up to that task. No demons and it was hardly inferior when it performed the task I required of it.

Quote “What was it like having your freedom restricted with proprietary software?”

No problem at all. I still use proprietary software to this day. I write that often, infact it was the all of nothing attitude of gnewsense where I stated I have a need for proprietary. Ive nothing at all against it in itself.

Quote “Inquiring minds want to know!”

You have not got an inquiring mind since Ive said this repeatedly many times on this blog. You claim not to have left so you should know this.

Im sure you would like to paint me as a FOSS only champion. Sorry Robotron thats not true. Best software for me is what I champion, I could care less if it was open, closed or anything inbetween.

You cannot label me with any of your tags since as my blog has shown I am just as happy to challenge a Linux advocate as I am anyone else. I use this blog for my opinions and if I don’t agree with something I will say so. I can’t cover everyone’s opinions, but please feel free to ask me any questions you want about what I agree or disagree with. I am more than happy to answer.