Red Sox, Francona Part Ways

8:38am: The Red Sox and manager Terry Francona will part ways, according to Jon Heyman of SI.com (allTwitter links). Francona's three-year, $12MM deal included club options for 2012-13 worth $8.75MM in total ($750K buyout) and the Red Sox could announce their decision to decline the options today.

Francona, 52, has led the Red Sox to two World Series Championships this decade. The Red Sox won it all in 2004, their first season under Francona, and again in 2007. The Red Sox have a 744-552 record in eight seasons under Francona. They finished the 2011 season with a 90-72 record and missed the playoffs by one game after an extended late-season slump.

The White Sox are looking for a manager, but Heyman hears Francona isn't high on Chicago's list of candidates.

No, it isn’t. It is, however, a perfect example of a knee jerk reaction that will hurt them in the long run. Terry Francona is an excellent manager who brought them two world series after HOW MANY years without one? This is a knee jerk reaction to please the fans, nothing more, nothing less. Boston did not make the playoffs because the players thought that they had a playoff berth wrapped up from day one. They took their foot off of the gas pedal in september and they really, really blew it.

There are some rumblings that Francona hasn’t been approaching his job with the same verve and dedication, though… talk that he’s letting arrogant veterans run wild and that he himself seems to feel above criticism. (See “AL East Notes” on MLBTR from 9/28/11.)

IF that is true, it’s pretty damning.

Also: supposing you’re right that the problem is that the players felt like they were a shoo-in and quit pushing for the playoffs… if you were to pinpoint one person in a clubhouse whose responsibility is to prevent such attitudes, who would that be?

I’d say the manager.

Francona is a fine manager. He’ll go down in Red Sox history. But maybe for his sake and the Sox’s, a change is needed.

Yeah but put him on a short leash and identify the problem players. W/o hesitation I would say that the players NOT giving him a problem are probably Pedroia, Agonz, Crawford, Ellsbury, Beckett, Lester and Salty. Youks is probably still a team first kind of guy. Everyone else is questionable as well as expendable. Francona should probably be the last guy to go this year.

I actually think Gonzalez might be one of the problems. Tito had a team meeting in TOR where one of the topics of discussion was supposedly players’ complaints over the team buses they were using. Everyone’s already heard Gonzalez publicly whining about travel issues (timing of games on getaway days), it wouldn’t surprise me if he was one of the ones involved in busgate.

Toss in the “my shoulder wasn’t fully healed” crap after he insisted throughout the the year that it was, and the “god didn’t want us to win”, and maybe Agon’s 7- year contract was one of the influencial factors in Tito’s decision. Pedroia has a screw in his foot, and you don’t hear him complaining about it or travel-induced fatigue now, do we?

Crawford has said that he deserves every bit of criticism and didn’t complain about hitting in a different spot in the lineup every other day; Lester, as far as I can tell, has never done anything to suggest that he has a huge ego, or doesn’t have the team’s best interest in mind; Ellsbury took a lot of criticism last year and still came back without a cross-word about any of it and played his heart out every play of every game; Youkilis has always been willing to do whatever was asked of him, he’s hit everywhere in the lineup (including lead-off), he’ll play any position they ask him to (and switch back and forth multiple times during a season) and is the first one to call out teammates who turn into prima donnas (ask Manny); Salty is still trying to earn a starting spot so it’s highly unlikely that he has a huge ego or is causing a problem.

Yeah but put him on a short leash and identify the problem players. W/o hesitation I would say that the players NOT giving him a problem are probably Pedroia, Agonz, Crawford, Ellsbury, Beckett, Lester and Salty. Youks is probably still a team first kind of guy. Everyone else is questionable as well as expendable. Francona should probably be the last guy to go this year.

Could be. I’m not trying to present myself as an expert on Francona or the Sox. I’m just saying that something went wrong there for him to leave like this and that article posits one possible reason why, which, if true, would make sense.

But even if the article were true, that isn’t cause to let him go. This culture created by 24-hour sports media coverage of having to assign blame and find scapegoats immediately is responsible for this, but it’s juvenile nonsense. We seem to forget as fans that sometimes people do their jobs poorly, sometimes they have a bad run. It doesn’t mean a change needs to be made, it simply means that person (or those people) had a bad year.

If players can, why can’t managers?

At the end of the day, no matter what anyone says about poor performance, the Red Sox got taxed because of all the injuries. Period, end of story. The increased stress on just two of their starting pitchers because of those injuries are clearly responsible for their failings down the stretch, but their failings aren’t even most of the reason things went south. When you don’t have the lineup you thought you were going to have, the outcome can change. Sure, every team has injuries, but when you have them to the extend the Sox did, you better have depth…but they didn’t, and that isn’t Francona’s fault.

But even if the article were true, that isn’t cause to let him go. This culture created by 24-hour sports media coverage of having to assign blame and find scapegoats immediately is responsible for this, but it’s juvenile nonsense. We seem to forget as fans that sometimes people do their jobs poorly, sometimes they have a bad run. It doesn’t mean a change needs to be made, it simply means that person (or those people) had a bad year.

If players can, why can’t managers?

At the end of the day, no matter what anyone says about poor performance, the Red Sox got taxed because of all the injuries. Period, end of story. The increased stress on just two of their starting pitchers because of those injuries are clearly responsible for their failings down the stretch, but their failings aren’t even most of the reason things went south. When you don’t have the lineup you thought you were going to have, the outcome can change. Sure, every team has injuries, but when you have them to the extend the Sox did, you better have depth…but they didn’t, and that isn’t Francona’s fault.

There are some rumblings that Francona hasn’t been approaching his job with the same verve and dedication, though… talk that he’s letting arrogant veterans run wild and that he himself seems to feel above criticism. (See “AL East Notes” on MLBTR from 9/28/11.)

IF that is true, it’s pretty damning.

Also: supposing you’re right that the problem is that the players felt like they were a shoo-in and quit pushing for the playoffs… if you were to pinpoint one person in a clubhouse whose responsibility is to prevent such attitudes, who would that be?

I’d say the manager.

Francona is a fine manager. He’ll go down in Red Sox history. But maybe for his sake and the Sox’s, a change is needed.

Except it isn’t pleasing the fans. Polls I’ve seen on Red Sox fan sites overwhelmingly want Francona to stay. I don’t see many people who are blaming him—there are a few but they’re overwhelmingly the minority. If there’s a clubhouse problem, okay, but the fans aren’t talking about that. They’re pointing the finger (right or wrong) at Lackey and Crawford and Theo for not pursuing pitching depth.

Except it isn’t pleasing the fans. Polls I’ve seen on Red Sox fan sites overwhelmingly want Francona to stay. I don’t see many people who are blaming him—there are a few but they’re overwhelmingly the minority. If there’s a clubhouse problem, okay, but the fans aren’t talking about that. They’re pointing the finger (right or wrong) at Lackey and Crawford and Theo for not pursuing pitching depth.

The Braves situation is a lot different. They achieved to their level and the rookies made great strides forward and gained valuable experience. The team needs tweaking and than they will improve and reach the post-season in the next couple of years.

Red Sox, however, underachieved with much more established players. I think the chemistry between manager and players is gone and then the manager is the easiest to replace.

if this is the only thing they’re going to change, we’re not going to have any better season next year. Do some laundry and find a way to get rid of Lackey, he’s pure poison. Royals are looking for a starter, lets backfill our farm system with some of their prospects.

Ortiz? bye
Scutaro – we have options, but they won’t exercise them. They’re interested in filling seats with names, not good players.
JD – bye thank goodness
Tek – make him the pitching coach
Dice – is his contract up? Man I hope so.

Put me in as manager, I’d be a great fit 😉

I do agree tho, they have to make some serious changes and build the team around solid players. Crawford was a mistake, but if they handle it right in the offseason, he may come around.

1. Sign Dennis Eckersley as Manager
2. Sign either Papelbon or Valverde as closer
3. Move Aceves into set up role
4. Make Bard a starter
5. Trade John Lackey (3/45.5mm) straight up to Mets for Bay (3/49mm). Garbage for Trash trade, but both players would be better off.

not a chance in hell. I’ve said I’d trade Bay for a bag of balls but you couldn’t pay me to take Lackey. They both suck but at least Bay is a great clubhouse and culture guy. He’s a quiet leader who is going to give you 110% every time out. Bay is not worth the money but he doesn’t suck. Lackey sucks

First off, I don’t think the spotlight is that great with the Mets. But regardless, the bigger issue is that Lackey would be better off throwing against NL teams and in an absolutely enormous park. He needs to throw in a pitchers park.

Bay needs a bandbox of a park. He needs to be on an AL team where he can split time at DH and in the OF, as well. He’s had success in Boston, too. Given, he’s not the same player as he was in 2009, but I still think it would put both teams in better situations than they are in now.

They plan to move the fences in next year and one of the biggest problems with the Mets has to do with attitude and while I don’t think Lackey is a “cancer” kind of personality he certainly hasn’t come off of as a “team first” guy who can block out distractions very well. If he went ballistic because of a mild personal scandal (divorce) with the Boston media then how will that play in NY where scandals are to reporters what crack is to a crack head?

Yes, but they’re not in NY. The Mets have just as much media coverage as the Yankees, although it’s almost completely negative. Think Red Sox pre 2004…

Not now due to the playoffs, but it’s a common misconception around the country that the Mets are an afterthought here. They just suck… that’s a totally different thing than nobody caring. NY is still a national league town…

I don’t want Bay. It’s not that I dislike him. Yes, he’d probably benefit from playing in Fenway again. But I think that he’d almost have to play LF, due to his lack of speed, and that’d probably mean moving Crawford to RF. While I don’t have a huge problem with that, because I see CC’s speed and good defense as being a bigger asset in RF (than in LF) than his weak arm as a weakness. After all, his speed and good OF D would come into play far more often than the need for a good arm as a RF-er.

Regardless, I’d also see Bay as needing to be a DH quite often, which could be a problem if Ortiz was re-signed. Or if Ortiz was not re-signed, Bay would be yet another player who would be fighting for DH time along with Youkilis and Lavarnway.

No, if Lackey was going to be traded, I’d rather see something other than Bay coming back in return…. though I do concede that the bad contract for a bad contract aspect of it does have some logic.

Doesn’t matter, just get Lackey’s dopey as$ out of here! As far as Bay, he’s proven he can play in Boston. You’d have a backup DH for 2012 and maybe even 2013 depending on if Papi is back. Either way, yes his glove isn’t Gold Glove caliber, but Bay’s swing is tailor made for Fenway.

According to Cot’s Baseball, Lackey has three years left at about $16 million per while Bay has two years left at $18 per with a $3 million option. That is $48 million versus $39 million and I don’t think the Mets would want to tie up an extra year at $16 million.

No worries, I understand everyone wishes Valverde was a free agent after such a season.

Whoever they sign as a closer, the main thing for the Red Sox to address is their starting rotation. Even if they move Bard to the rotation successfully, expect a reduced performance late in the season. Think Ogando here. So you still need a decent swingman to give him a bit of extra rest now and then.

No worries, I understand everyone wishes Valverde was a free agent after such a season.

Whoever they sign as a closer, the main thing for the Red Sox to address is their starting rotation. Even if they move Bard to the rotation successfully, expect a reduced performance late in the season. Think Ogando here. So you still need a decent swingman to give him a bit of extra rest now and then.

I can’t believe this is coming from a Sox fan. Do I know your players better than you? Bard pitched 22 games as a starter, all in low A leagues, waaayyyyyyy back in 2007 and was shelled to the tune of a 7.00 ERA. He is basically a two pitch pitcher. What have you seen in him that makes you think he can be a viable starter? And yes, control was his major issue (78 walks, 48 ko in 75 IP) and while that may have resolved there would have to be so many issues resolved to prepare him for a starter that it wouldn’t be worth it unless he GAVE you MAJOR reasons to think he could be a #1 or #2 type starter. If he figures to be less than that then it’s not worth it.

Lester, Beckett and a healthy Buchholz gives you a solid front end rotation. Bard, Aceves and either Paps or his replacement give you a solid back end bullpen. While the market for starters isn’t great for front end types you can certainly find solid #4’s and #5’s that won’t create problems elsewhere.

Bard was a starter when he threw a very flat fastball and had no slider. He could transition to starter again and would likely post a mid threes ERA. He gave up 4runs his first appearance this year then gave up 5runs from April 5th to July 31st. 50.1 innings. Gave up 4 runs in august 12 innings but it was in two games he gave up the four. Then gave up 12 runs in 11innings in September. He seems to have lost his feel in September and allowed 9 walks in 11 innings. He only gave up 13 free passes April through august in 62 innings. I think he could definitely start. Needs a change up or cutter to throw a few times per game is all.

Again….big difference between coming into to throw to 3 hitters and throwing to 21+. he’s a two pitch pitcher who has NEVER given anyone any reasons to try him as a starter. That would be like the Yanks deciding to make David Robertson a starter. The Sox are not broke. They can find a suitable #4 or #5 elsewhere.

And you’ve offered ZERO intellectual reasoning to conclude that Bard would post a ERA in the mid 3.00s. Lester finished with an ERA in the 3’s and he’s been one of the best over the last 4 years. Seriously doubt he would be anywhere near that kind of a pitcher.

There are several successful players who moved from relief to starter. The most exceptional (and I’m not saying the outcome would be similar) is Johan Santana who was a reliever for 3 1/2 years then transitioned to starter. Hardball times had the best review of relief -v- starter numbers and looked at 291 pitchers who had at least 75 innings at each. As a starter their ERA was 8% higher than as a reliever. It included guys like Lowe Smoltz Doyle Alexander and is very in depth. So Bard’s career ERA is 2.88 add 8% that’s 3.11. This year’s ERA was 3.33 add 8% that’s 3.59. So, I’m not just blowing intellectual smoke you see.

As I said, I wouldn’t expect the same from Bard. Santana had better numbers as a starter than as a reliever but even with the anticipated drop of 8% or even make it 12% Bard still looks to transition just fine. You can, of course, discount the other 290 pitchers from that article on some grounds I suppose, age, opponent, era they played etc.

There are reasons some guys are relievers; Bard as a late inning reliever can thrive with only two pitches, especially since in short stints he can really throw gas. As a starter, having to go 6-8 innings he would likely sit more around 94-95, and would only have a slider to go with it.

You can’t simply say “well on average relievers who converted to starters added 8% to their ERA, so Bard would too.” If that were the case Rivera should have been a starter, he could just go up there and throw cutters for 9 innings, and he’d probably throw 8-10 shutouts a year. There are reasons that certain guys are relievers, and one of the major reasons is if they only have one or two effective pitches (like Bard).

I agree 100%, MaineSox. I get tired of people thinking that every good reliever will automatically become a good starter. There are very, very few starters who are successful with only two pitchers, and it’s usually because they’re so utterly dominant with those two pitches that they can get away with it.

Furthermore, I think that it’ll be easier to find respectable back of the rotation starters than it will to find dominant closers or set-up guys. Why throw away a perfectly good dominant 8th inning guy just to create a questionable 4th/4th starter? Seems highly questionable to me.

And you’ve offered ZERO intellectual reasoning to conclude that Bard would post a ERA in the mid 3.00s. Lester finished with an ERA in the 3’s and he’s been one of the best over the last 4 years. Seriously doubt he would be anywhere near that kind of a pitcher.

Bard was a starter when he threw a very flat fastball and had no slider. He could transition to starter again and would likely post a mid threes ERA. He gave up 4runs his first appearance this year then gave up 5runs from April 5th to July 31st. 50.1 innings. Gave up 4 runs in august 12 innings but it was in two games he gave up the four. Then gave up 12 runs in 11innings in September. He seems to have lost his feel in September and allowed 9 walks in 11 innings. He only gave up 13 free passes April through august in 62 innings. I think he could definitely start. Needs a change up or cutter to throw a few times per game is all.

The Sox cannot pitch Bard and Papelbon every day. The team needs a quality second closer and another quality 8th inning set up guy. Aceves is #1 from inning 5 thru 7, Albers is #2. A solid lefty specialist and a #3 middle inning guy(Tazawa or Bowden?). The club also needs a pitching coach who, from the very start of the season, can get all of his starters prepared to pitch 7 innings+ every outing. The starters burned out the Sox relief corps before labor Day this year.

I don’t think that the problem was a lack of quality in the bullpen. The real problem was the problem you identify in your final sentence… the Sox BP was burned out … due to the weak starting pitching they had. The Sox starters were simply not pitching deep enough into games often enough and thus, the BP was getting over used.

I won’t say that a couple more decent BP arms wouldn’t be welcome, but the real key is to have starting pitchers who are getting into the 7th and 8th innings much more often than this season.

I can’t believe this is coming from a Sox fan. Do I know your players better than you? Bard pitched 22 games as a starter, all in low A leagues, waaayyyyyyy back in 2007 and was shelled to the tune of a 7.00 ERA. He is basically a two pitch pitcher. What have you seen in him that makes you think he can be a viable starter? And yes, control was his major issue (78 walks, 48 ko in 75 IP) and while that may have resolved there would have to be so many issues resolved to prepare him for a starter that it wouldn’t be worth it unless he GAVE you MAJOR reasons to think he could be a #1 or #2 type starter. If he figures to be less than that then it’s not worth it.

Lester, Beckett and a healthy Buchholz gives you a solid front end rotation. Bard, Aceves and either Paps or his replacement give you a solid back end bullpen. While the market for starters isn’t great for front end types you can certainly find solid #4’s and #5’s that won’t create problems elsewhere.

1) What?
2) Bring back Paps.
3) No, he did great in his role this year.
4) What? He was god awful as a starter in the minors, he din’t get things together until he went into relief.
5) No, give Lackey a chance to turn it around.

1. Eck doesn’t sugarcoat anything. He’ll tell Youk, Albers, Lackey, etc that they’re fat and need to get in shape. He’ll rip the team when they underperform, give them credit when they do what they’re supposed to do, and make sure the fundamentals are important.

2. Paps is fine, I agree with this.

3. Ace would be a perfect 8th inning guy, which enables Bard to start.

4. I don’t care how Bard threw when he was 22 and throwing in A+ ball. That’s a horrible argument. Stretch out Bard and make him a starter. Look at how it worked for Ogando this year. You’ll need a couple spot starts toward August and September, but he could be a huge piece to this SP puzzle.

5. Lackey has ruined his chances in Boston. It’s not just his performance. It’s his attitude every time he gets pulled. It’s throwing his arms in the air everytime his defense doesn’t make a web-gem play. It’s his press conferences after a game where he goes 3.1 IP, 8 ER, and he says “I don’t get it. I felt like I threw well”. Lackey has never thrown well at Fenway, and the trend has continued through his stint playing for Boston.

I have bursitis in the hips. Let me tell you, it does not go away. And, it is very painful, like a tooth ache. My doctor told me any more than 4 shots of cortisone in a year and my hip bones will begin to deteriorate. Cortisone is a steroid. I had a shot 3 weeks ago, my hips hurt ever stinking day…..even with a shot.

Youkilis is through as a 162 game regular infielder in Boston. He has bursitis of the hip(s). He might be able to get through a season as a DH/3B but he has to lose 35-40 pounds first, to take the pressure off his hips. I kid you not! He has no other choice if he wants to stay in baseball.

1. Eck doesn’t sugarcoat anything. He’ll tell Youk, Albers, Lackey, etc that they’re fat and need to get in shape. He’ll rip the team when they underperform, give them credit when they do what they’re supposed to do, and make sure the fundamentals are important.

2. Paps is fine, I agree with this.

3. Ace would be a perfect 8th inning guy, which enables Bard to start.

4. I don’t care how Bard threw when he was 22 and throwing in A+ ball. That’s a horrible argument. Stretch out Bard and make him a starter. Look at how it worked for Ogando this year. You’ll need a couple spot starts toward August and September, but he could be a huge piece to this SP puzzle.

5. Lackey has ruined his chances in Boston. It’s not just his performance. It’s his attitude every time he gets pulled. It’s throwing his arms in the air everytime his defense doesn’t make a web-gem play. It’s his press conferences after a game where he goes 3.1 IP, 8 ER, and he says “I don’t get it. I felt like I threw well”. Lackey has never thrown well at Fenway, and the trend has continued through his stint playing for Boston.

I’d love that! Only if Bay could play RF tho. I think we need to be patient with Crawford. A fire has been lit under his as$ (hopefully) and will come back with a solid (but not historic) 2012 season. I would go as far to throw the Mets TEN, yes TEN million to make it happen.

I’d love that! Only if Bay could play RF tho. I think we need to be patient with Crawford. A fire has been lit under his as$ (hopefully) and will come back with a solid (but not historic) 2012 season. I would go as far to throw the Mets TEN, yes TEN million to make it happen.

Lackey should have taken a leave of absence when it was apparent that the off-field issues were affecting his performance. And how could they NOT? I think an LOA would have been a selfless thing to do…unfortunately, I don’t think Lackey was thinking of what was best for the team this year.

Also…man, the Eck as manager? The players would need a dictionary to decipher his language. But I like it nonetheless. Pedroia may get jealous though of the man-crush Eck seems to have on Buchholz. I don’t see Eck giving up his cushy spot in the NESN studio for that grueling schedule – no way.

The Royals wouldn’t give up prospects for Lackey, nor would any other team. He’d be a salary dump, and even if the Red Sox picked up most of his contract, he’d still return almost nothing in the way of prospects.

lol, what? You think anybody would take Lackey and his horrible contract if you simply GAVE him to them? Let alone the laughable idea that any team would give up any prospect to do so?

The only way you’re getting rid of Lackey is to trade one horrible contract for another. Lackey for Zambrano, for example. Which I would do in a second, if I were the Sox. I’d rather have an idiot that can pitch then an idiot that can’t.

I think Ortiz has been one of the personality issues on the team. Not saying he’s a cancer but his grumblings about his contract and his public second guessing of Francona’s choices certainly weren’t conducive to a team first attitude. Great historic player for the franchise but there are plenty of bats on the market that might come with a little less baggage or feeling of entitlement.

Am with you in the Ortiz and his personality could have been a problem. He let his ego take over and there was no one to rein him in as should have been, though IMO Youk did try as he did with Ramirez.

a) Sox would have to eat 75% of what is owed.
b) Royals aren’t ready to compete yet so why trade valuable prospects to get a mid-back rotation performing starter?
c) Lackey isn’t very good right now on the field and seems distracted. What kind of prospect package do you honestly think you’re going to get in return?

a) Sox would have to eat 75% of what is owed.
b) Royals aren’t ready to compete yet so why trade valuable prospects to get a mid-back rotation performing starter?
c) Lackey isn’t very good right now on the field and seems distracted. What kind of prospect package do you honestly think you’re going to get in return?

1) They will not get prospects for John Lackey, unless they literally pay his his entire salary and more.
2) Why would you make a catcher a pitching coach?
3) You realize they played BELOW their talent level and missed the playoffs by literally one game?

All they need is a good #3 starter to give some depth. Their farm system got 1 more year of experience. They have the best lineup in baseball, they just need starting pitching depth, and they need to stay healthy.

Whoever is in charge of strength and conditioning is the one who should get fired. Also, the players need to be serious about offseason workouts (clearly Pedroia and Ells were doing something right).

Let Tek coach Lavarnway and serve as the bullpen catcher… He can actually work with each pitcher that way….also spend some time with top talent in AA and AAA giving pointers, etc.. Groom him to be a coach/manager

DiceK: No, his contract is NOT up. One more year. But it doesn’t matter because he almost certainly won’t be back from his Tommy John surgery until late in the season, and probably won’t be ready to pitch in the majors.

Tek: I see him more as a bench coach. 😉

JD: Gone.

Scutaro: I see him being brought back. The Sox aren’t going to spend huge bucks on SS when they’ve got some SS prospects in the minors. Besides, Scutaro’s decent. The guy gets the job done and is a very respectable hitter for a SS.

Ortiz: Great as the guy is, he’s getting up in age. Also, Lavarnway is ready for the bigs and if the Red Sox re-sign Ortiz, it’d block Lavarnway, since Lav’s best position is DH. Furthermore, Youk got seriously beat up playing 3B this year and could probably use some days off DH-ing, but that wouldn’t happen if Ortiz was still on the club. So, great as Ortiz is and as nice a year as he had this season, I’m thinking that it’s time to move on and look to the future. (And the same will be true for Youkilis after next season, when Middlebrooks is likely ready for the bigs at 3B.)

I agree that Crawford was a mistake. The root cause of the mistake was in not getting Holliday for LF. I’ve said for a couple of years that Crawford would be a bad fit for the Red Sox as a LF-er. Sox LF-ers should be first and foremost, mashers in the Yaz, Williams, Manny, Rice mold. Big time bats first, and whatever defense you can get is very secondary. But now the Sox are stuck with this guy for another 6 years. I don’t think that Crawford is a bad player by any stretch. Just not a true Fenway LF-er.

As for Lackey, I don’t see anyone stepping up to take him. Still, I think that he might benefit from a trade to the NL, maybe to some NL West pitcher friendly park.

It was time. Francona did a good job of being balanced regardless of the situation (down 0-3 to Yankees, down 1-3 to Indians), but sometimes you need to chew the team out and flip a post-game spread. He never was that guy. Have to get your team in shape too.

This seems like a stupid move. Even as a Yankee fan, the guy seemed like a total class act and seemed to keep dumb lineup moves to a minimum. Let’s face it, all coaches do them but he wasn’t bad in that respect. Seems silly and reactionary to ditch him.

Yeah, but there’s mutual and there’s mutual. We’ll never know for sure, but did Francona sit down and have a heart to heart with Theo and company and say “listen, I’m just not feeling it anymore” … or … did he offer to fall on his sword (as ritual would dictate) and then end up surprised that the Sox took him up on the offer?

I agree. The sox have a GM who can work the phones and make decisions.
The Cubs have nobody in charge during this crucial 2 week period.
However, the notice did go out to season ticket holders that the deposit deadline is getting moved up.
Good to know some changes are being made.

Lou Merloni who is close to the team and probably knows more of the clubhouse talk than any regular member of the press (being a recent active player) and certainly more than any of us says it’s a bad move because Francona was able to keep a lot of BS out of the press and calm in the clubhouse. If that’s true, look for a media circus next year.

Only reason he’s being let go is because of the pressure by the fans. What a joke. Red Sox fans are a joke. He brought you TWO World Series as the manager there and before that you hadn’t won a world series 86 years. Francona doesn’t play the field folks, the players do. 100% of the blame goes on the players. Red Sox fans are an absolute disgrace!!!

I’m sure all managers would asked to be released from a contract that would pay you $ 9 million over the next few seasons. This was a front office move made from the pressure of the fans. Francona was by far the best manager the Red Sox ever had. This is ridiculous.

the guy’s rich enough and will clearly get a similar contract elsewhere. and stop pointing fingers, because you look like a moron. i am sure i speak for the other level-headed Sox fans when i say that no, we were not calling for this guy’s head. it was the media creating a circus out of the collapse.

then again, i’m sure you have like 10 million friends and they’re all probably red sox fans, so you’re clearly informed on the matter.

You know.. The Red Sox have had some really good managers in the past.. Joe McCarthy, Dick Williams, even Joe Cronin. Yeah I only remember Dick Williams, but mcCarthy was no slouch (223-145) and Dick Williams with his discipline *1st* theory took a last place Red Sox team to the WS and heart breaking 7th game loss in ’67. Not to mention was the one credited with getting Yaz’s career on track.

Not a pay cut. Torre was offered a base of $5million dollars. (Highest paid manager in mlb) plus another 3 million dollars in playoff bonuses. Doesn’t sound like a bad deal to me. So in no way was it a pay cut. His base salary was to be the same as it was the previous year.

If anyone ever doubted the A’s have the worst luck in MLB, consider that they just signed Bob Melvin for 3 years BEFORE this happened. Francona would be perfect for Oakland and was their bench coach before jetting to Boston, this is so frustrating.

I think we need the kind of commenters who A) don’t say stupid things, B) don’t say things that will never happen, C) use proper grammar, such as capitalization and punctuation and D) actually learn how to spell the name of the player they’re recommending.

Hahaha….Sox are not going into rebuild mode. They have a couple of hundred million invested in last years pickups in Crawford and Agonz, they have Ellsbury who is coming into his prime and all-star caliber players in Pedroia and Youks. They also have a solid front rotation of Beckett, lester and Buchholz. The motivation should be to shore up the holes, build depth and hope for a healthy 2012.

I simply don’t think teams like the Sox and Yanks are afforded the time to rebuild.

Hahaha….Sox are not going into rebuild mode. They have a couple of hundred million invested in last years pickups in Crawford and Agonz, they have Ellsbury who is coming into his prime and all-star caliber players in Pedroia and Youks. They also have a solid front rotation of Beckett, lester and Buchholz. The motivation should be to shore up the holes, build depth and hope for a healthy 2012.

I simply don’t think teams like the Sox and Yanks are afforded the time to rebuild.

That operation is a mess up there… No body is going to handle that media or those ego’s in that clubhouse the way Tito did. As a Yankees fan, I loved seeing what happened to the sox, but hated how they treated Francona. He’ll catch on somewhere quick

The question is who replaces Tito? And will it be someone who sees eye to eye with the Sabermetrics philosophy of Theo… or will Theo even be around?

Some thoughts:
– Ortiz: I bet they bring him back for a fairly affordable price (2 years?). Only reason to ditch him is to move A-Gon to DH, but that won’t happen (yet).
– Scutaro: Gone. Great work filling in while waiting for Iglesias… but is he ready yet?
– Drew: Gone.
– Tek: Gotta wonder. I love Tek, but Salty seems ready to step up on his own, and they could promote Lavarnway to platoon against lefties (Salty hit .209 vs LHP). Or they may want Lavarnway to start in Pawtucket.
– Dice-K: 2012 is his last year under contract. He will be rehabbing all year. We more than likely won’t have to see him start as a Red Sox ever again.
– Papelbon: Bet they will make a token offer, but let him walk. He’s been good, but personally I feel like he’s had one foot out the door for a couple of seasons now with his 1-year deals. Let him go to be Mo’s apprentice with the Yankees, and give Bard a shot – he’s earned it.

Sox need a RF unless they commit to Reddick. I bet they give him opportunity to start next year, and let Iglesias challenge Lowrie for starting SS role. Aviles will still be around to get plenty of playing time around the infield too.

Ortiz: Let him walk- open up the DH spot for Youk/someone else (lavarnway) who can platoon the field.
Scutaro: Bring him back- solid player top to bottom.
Drew: Chase him out the door.
Tek: Keep him on as part of the staff, but not as a player. Somebody mentioned earlier to make him Pitching coach. Intriguing idea.
Dice-K: Agreed.
Papelbon: Bring him back- elite closer, only 3 blown saves this past year. Bard hasn’t earned it yet, and the one two punch of Bard/Pap is lights out if they’re pitching well, and just about as good as any set up man/closer combo in MLB.

I’d simply let Kalish/Reddick roam RF- though it sucks they’re both lefties. Then again, letting Ortiz go opens a slot for another RH bat in the lineup.

Ortiz: Let him walk- open up the DH spot for Youk/someone else (lavarnway) who can platoon the field.
Scutaro: Bring him back- solid player top to bottom.
Drew: Chase him out the door.
Tek: Keep him on as part of the staff, but not as a player. Somebody mentioned earlier to make him Pitching coach. Intriguing idea.
Dice-K: Agreed.
Papelbon: Bring him back- elite closer, only 3 blown saves this past year. Bard hasn’t earned it yet, and the one two punch of Bard/Pap is lights out if they’re pitching well, and just about as good as any set up man/closer combo in MLB.

I’d simply let Kalish/Reddick roam RF- though it sucks they’re both lefties. Then again, letting Ortiz go opens a slot for another RH bat in the lineup.

– Ortiz: I bet they bring him back for a fairly affordable price (2 years?). Only reason to ditch him is to move A-Gon to DH, but that won’t happen (yet).
**Why in the world would Agonz at age 28-29 need to move to DH anytime in the next 5 years? Ortiz should not be expected to perform anywhere near what he did over the next two years and it’s quite clear that he’s probably part of the old guard that should probably go. His bat can be replaced.
– Scutaro: Gone. Great work filling in while waiting for Iglesias… but is he ready yet?

** If the question is, “Is Iglesias ready” then the answer is no (see .554 OPS @ AAA). Being that he’s even a question then why not bring Scutaro back unless they are willing to commit to Lowrie or into bringing in a guy like Reyes (doubtful).
– Drew: Gone.***Agreed.

– Tek: Gotta wonder. I love Tek, but Salty seems ready to step up on his own, and they could promote Lavarnway to platoon against lefties (Salty hit .209 vs LHP). Or they may want Lavarnway to start in Pawtucket.

** Gone. Salty’s bat makes him the starter and Teks defense, aside from game calling, isn’t good enough to keep him around. Maybe they sign a back up C to keep a spot warm until Lavarnway is ready.
– Dice-K: 2012 is his last year under contract. He will be rehabbing all year. We more than likely won’t have to see him start as a Red Sox ever again.
**Agreed

– Papelbon: Bet they will make a token offer, but let him walk. He’s been good, but personally I feel like he’s had one foot out the door for a couple of seasons now with his 1-year deals. Let him go to be Mo’s apprentice with the Yankees, and give Bard a shot – he’s earned it.

**Probably will keep him if the price is low enough but might be better off to let him walk along with the memories of game 162. Yanks don’t need Paps (see Soriano and Robertson) and I guarantee you he isn’t signing with the Yanks, especially not to be a set up guy.

tek showed his game calling mattered very little the last month of the season. Hopefully that punched his ticket out of town for good as an active player with his games caught being no better than anyone else’s. Let Lavarnway at least hang around as a backup/platoon vs LH pitchers, nothing else the man can hit and throw and for those not paying attention?

lester did a decent job with Lavarnway and Beckett was no worse with him either.. time to get off the Tek train.. that car is off the rails..

– Ortiz: I bet they bring him back for a fairly affordable price (2 years?). Only reason to ditch him is to move A-Gon to DH, but that won’t happen (yet).
**Why in the world would Agonz at age 28-29 need to move to DH anytime in the next 5 years? Ortiz should not be expected to perform anywhere near what he did over the next two years and it’s quite clear that he’s probably part of the old guard that should probably go. His bat can be replaced.
– Scutaro: Gone. Great work filling in while waiting for Iglesias… but is he ready yet?

** If the question is, “Is Iglesias ready” then the answer is no (see .554 OPS @ AAA). Being that he’s even a question then why not bring Scutaro back unless they are willing to commit to Lowrie or into bringing in a guy like Reyes (doubtful).
– Drew: Gone.***Agreed.

– Tek: Gotta wonder. I love Tek, but Salty seems ready to step up on his own, and they could promote Lavarnway to platoon against lefties (Salty hit .209 vs LHP). Or they may want Lavarnway to start in Pawtucket.

** Gone. Salty’s bat makes him the starter and Teks defense, aside from game calling, isn’t good enough to keep him around. Maybe they sign a back up C to keep a spot warm until Lavarnway is ready.
– Dice-K: 2012 is his last year under contract. He will be rehabbing all year. We more than likely won’t have to see him start as a Red Sox ever again.
**Agreed

– Papelbon: Bet they will make a token offer, but let him walk. He’s been good, but personally I feel like he’s had one foot out the door for a couple of seasons now with his 1-year deals. Let him go to be Mo’s apprentice with the Yankees, and give Bard a shot – he’s earned it.

**Probably will keep him if the price is low enough but might be better off to let him walk along with the memories of game 162. Yanks don’t need Paps (see Soriano and Robertson) and I guarantee you he isn’t signing with the Yanks, especially not to be a set up guy.

This is ignorant. No way they should let him go. Terry brought two championships to Boston. He knows how to manage personalities. If anything they need Bogar off third base. He ran into outs a number of times and held guys when they should have gone. He’s just not suited for the role. Hale was a great base coach. Really knew everyone’s arm and accuracy and made good decisions. It’s just that bench coach us seen as the step before manager and Terry feels demarlo deserves a shot to manage somewhere. I think we lose a lot of clubhouse chemistry now and see egos and personalities flare with him gone. So long Terry. Thanks.

Well as a Red Sox fan, I’m very sorry to see Tito go. I really don’t think anyone should blame him for the Sox collapse, in the final month the players just stopped playing. I fully defend Tito and any Red Sox fan who wants to blame the collapse on him, I’ll defend Tito until the bitter end.

Tito will land on his feet and hopefully this will in the end get him more respect by fans around the league, too many people wanted to dismiss his abilities as a manager since he managed the Sox.

Thank you. I don’t mind listening to real criticism of what went wrong and I don’t mind the bs from the “I automatically hate the Red Sox” crowd. But what really gets to me is the very suddenly spoiled fanbase who wants someone’s head.

The 3 major elements: Theo, Tito, and the players. Theo takes some blame for having very little depth at starter but he did try to get something at the end. The players take a lot of the blame, they’re at lot of all stars and played like a rookie ball club in the last month. Tito, a lot of his decisions that come into question are from arm chair managers, guys who think they can manage a team because they finished with a slightly above .500 record in their fantasy baseball league.

Thank you. I don’t mind listening to real criticism of what went wrong and I don’t mind the bs from the “I automatically hate the Red Sox” crowd. But what really gets to me is the very suddenly spoiled fanbase who wants someone’s head.

The 3 major elements: Theo, Tito, and the players. Theo takes some blame for having very little depth at starter but he did try to get something at the end. The players take a lot of the blame, they’re at lot of all stars and played like a rookie ball club in the last month. Tito, a lot of his decisions that come into question are from arm chair managers, guys who think they can manage a team because they finished with a slightly above .500 record in their fantasy baseball league.

There are some grumblings that Francona may want to leave and that he has had conflicts with some of his players throughout the season, supposedly disliking the chemistry of the team as currently constituted. Its not necessarily all within the hands of management.

There are some grumblings that Francona may want to leave and that he has had conflicts with some of his players throughout the season, supposedly disliking the chemistry of the team as currently constituted. Its not necessarily all within the hands of management.

Heyman: “don’t feel like Francona is high on White Sox’s list of candidates” yeah because Heyman has always been so spot on, right? He was right about Adrian Gonzalez not coming to the Sox…oh, wait. Let’s wait for word to come down about if these rumors have any validity before we cross him off any lists for other jobs. He could be hired as the South-end Sox Manager before he gets on a flight out of Boston. It’s just impossible to know.

Heyman: “don’t feel like Francona is high on White Sox’s list of candidates” yeah because Heyman has always been so spot on, right? He was right about Adrian Gonzalez not coming to the Sox…oh, wait. Let’s wait for word to come down about if these rumors have any validity before we cross him off any lists for other jobs. He could be hired as the South-end Sox Manager before he gets on a flight out of Boston. It’s just impossible to know.

Where is all this “fans want Tito’s head” nonsense coming from? I’m in Boston and everyone agrees its all on the players. The problem is there is very little they can do in terms of moving personnel so perhaps the front office will make Tito the scapegoat, but its certainly not coming from the fans. There might be an idiotic sports radio caller or 2 that say otherwise but most of the fans want Tito back. If he chooses to leave then thats completely different.

Apparently he lost control of the team. Control being defined as a breakdown of common sense and professionalism on the part of the players. Terry is probably somewhat relieved to be out the door and leaving some malcontents behind. I’m sure at the meetings they had he was 100% honest in his evaluation of the players. Sometimes a bad move is a necessary move. If guilt plays into it several high paid “Professionals” should have some sleepless nights.

Locally from the online polls to listening to the talk shows the firing edge goes to Theo over Tito by a wide margin. The RSN seems to be firmly behind Tito in the current palace revolt situation. He’ll surface somewhere and will always be a favorite in Boston.

If Theo stays this is a baseball version of the Big Dig in attempting to get something done for despite all the talk of Sox money it has its limits and Henry knows a bad investment can only get worse unless drastic or wrong steps are taken. Good luck to Theo or whoever the new GM will be. Maybe LL will resign and Theo will be club president and a new victim can take over as GM?

What a bad move Boston made. Even if Francona wanted out they should have made him come back. He brought them championships and the team flops and he is the scape goat. I can just imagine what Red Sox nation was saying when they lost. I’m sure the fans got him fired. This organization will be forever cursed.

Wow Red Sox fans, I tried to read some comments here that made some sense, or maybe talked about what you all SHOULD be talking about, and that is other managerial candidates, listen fact remains Francona gave the city two world series titles and he should be applauded, but the fact is he just didn’t seem to have that drive anymore, so with that said how about the fun fact everyone here is failing at mentioning, or maybe did, I stopped reading comments, Jason Veritek is the real heart and soul of that team and has a big thick book on everyone that plays the Sox, he should be your manager, and I feel he will do a good job.

The Sox need to clean house. Starting with Epstein, Francona, coaches and half the players. Epstein gave Francona no pitching to work with. Francona has lost the clubhouse. Their isn’t a bench player worth a dime. Half of the pitchers aren’t worth a dime. Tek and Wakefeild need to retire. Give any club 10 million a year to take whining Lackey.
The Sox will save 35 million from Dice-K, Drew and Poppy. Use the money to bid on Sabathia. The Yanks HAVE to sign him but at least drive the price up if they can’t get him. The Sox really need to sign Ellsbury even if it’s 20 million.

Like they always say you can’t fire 25 players did Terry make mistakes sure he did but he does not hit ,pitch.catch or throw I think he was the fall guys.I just want to say thank you Terry for bring us two championship in your eight year that you were here.Lets hope the next one can do the same or better.

uhh.. you do realize Lester pitched our final game, right? you do realize Bruce Chen was going to be acquired for the ONE GAME PLAYOFF if we even made it, right? you do realize that Lester held the O’s to 2 runs…. right?

uhh.. you do realize Lester pitched our final game, right? you do realize Bruce Chen was going to be acquired for the ONE GAME PLAYOFF if we even made it, right? you do realize that Lester held the O’s to 2 runs…. right?

There was more wrong with this team than Bruce Chen. All three of Beckett, Lester and Lackey struggled in September and the middle relief was ineffective except for Aceves. Stop making Chen out to be the next Dave Stewart. He was never a “money” or “clutch” performer.

There was more wrong with this team than Bruce Chen. All three of Beckett, Lester and Lackey struggled in September and the middle relief was ineffective except for Aceves. Stop making Chen out to be the next Dave Stewart. He was never a “money” or “clutch” performer.

Since when has Iglesias proven he can’t hit at a major league level. P.S. Lowrie might be made of glass but in each season that he has had more than 100 plate appearances his batting average is .262 and he has an offensive WAR of 1.1.
Iglesias has 2 hits and 3 runs scored in 10 plate appearances. I think it may be a bit premature to declare him a glove only.

“I think they should try to pry LaRussa from the Cards…” What the hell are you smoking? “…Torre from the MLB…” probably won’t happen “…or Don Mattingly from the Dodgers…” after reading that sentence, I laughed for, no bullshit, ten minutes solid. Everyone at work thought I went insane.