Saints gains and loses

this is a discussion within the Saints Community Forum; Gator - how exactly have I contradicted myself? Have I changed my argument, in the slightest, that rookies are a good way to augment a team, but need veteran leaders to help their transition and play around them to make ...

Gator - how exactly have I contradicted myself? Have I changed my argument, in the slightest, that rookies are a good way to augment a team, but need veteran leaders to help their transition and play around them to make the team better? Have I swayed in that in the slightest?

You think b/c I said TE is a need that I\'m contradicting myself? Not at all. It is a need. Defense is a BIGGER need - but ask anyone else in this forum if they think HASLETT sees tight end as NEED - worthy of using a first or second round pick. Again, I am opertaing in reality.

You make statements like \"Whom I know to be solid has nothing to do with those players that will blossom into next year\'s superstar.\" Wow, really? I didn\'t know that you can see the future Gator. Who will be this year\'s SUPERSTAR on the Saints defense?

I\'m not saying that I know what is going to happen. Ashley Ambrose could have 75 interceptions and get elected to start at both corner positions at the same time for the Pro Bowl. Takeo Spikes could have come in here and broken his leg in practice and never played a snap. I make my judgements based on what I know about the Saints talent level and their history. This year marks the end to me. By that I mean that every talented player that we had on defense before he got here is now gone. The Saints screwed Knight. Clemons was a good linebacker year before last, now he\'s leaving after a bad year. They\'ve replaced every player with somone of marginal talent or character. Ruff, Carter, Hand, Jackson....

I\'m glad you\'re optimistic. I;m glad you like the draft. That doesn\'t change the reality of the fact that this defense is full of marginal players. Can our defense be better this year? Yes. Can they get enough better to allow this team to have a shot at the NFC South title or a Super Bowl. I seriously doubt it. Our offense showed at the end of the year last year that it is not invincible. If we\'re scoring 20 points a game, instead of 30 - that\'s really big trouble. I think our offense can be even better, but...

The point is that neither of us KNOWS what is going to happen. I look at a team full of unknown young players with little or no experience and marginally talented veterans at best who have never played together, are overwieght or have substance abuse problemss, led by possibly the worst defense coordinator that the Saints have had in the last 20 years, and I say, wow this defense is not going to be very good. You look at the same thing, and say, but we\'ll have two or three rookies - so we\'ll be much better. Hey man, if that\'s how you feel then great, but you\'re never going to get me to belive that.

But that is exactly my point... shall we go through the track record of each and every player who is likely to start right now? I don\'t think that you want to do that Gator, b/c our defense is not full of talented players.

I am saying that Allen, Hodge, Ruff, Mitchell, and even Grant have little or no pro experience to base any prediction of future play on. Carter\'s recent history is full of substance abuse and now an injury. Hand and Jackson did not play particularly well in that last few years and now both are overweight.

You see Gator. I use these statements as proof - to strengthen my argument. You use comments like \"Whom I know to be solid has nothing to do with those players that will blossom into next year\'s superstar.\"

So Gator, on our defense, other than Darren Howard, please name a player that you believe to be a solid, better than average player, AND please give me a reason as to why you believe that. I\'m not dodging any issues. I am stating and restating time and again exactly why I think this defense is very questionable at best. But you know what, I\'ll break it down again for you...

1. Charles Grant - Good rookie season, should get better, but it is only his second year so you never know.
2. Grady Jackson - he weighs 400 pounds. You cannot go a 16 game season weighing that much and expect that your play won\'t suffer.
3. Norman Hand - Has played poorly in both of the last two seasons. His weight is a bigger issue now than before, so much so that it caused him to get hurt at the end of the 2001 season.
4. Darren Howard - undoubtedly the most talented and stable player on our D. He could be great if he had any supporting cast.
5. Sedrick Hodge - Did not play well on a linebacking corp that was absolutely horrible last year. This will only be his second year where he get significant playing time, and unless his play improves I would bet it will be his last as a starter with this team.
6. Orlando Ruff - I should include Smith as well b/c this is a MLB by committee system. Ruff didn\'t start for the Chargers last year. His best year EVER before that was not as good as Clemons\' very poor year last season. The Saints believe that he has talent, but there is no way of telling if this is a Horm type move or a move like... i don\'t know... the great plan of moving Clemons inside last year.
7. James Allen - has never had significant playing time, certainly not as a starter. Again, he is a guy who they think has talent, but b/c he has zero past to judge, he remains a giant question mark.
8. Dale Carter - If he can stay clean, AND he can recover from a broken arm, AND he plays like he did in about four games last season, he could be good. That\'s a lot of ifs for a 32 year old with substance abuse problems, who didn\'t really pan out the way we hoped last year, who, by the way, still has rods in his broken arm.
9. Fred Thomas - probably the second most valuable player on our defense behind Howard. He small and not real fast, but he tends to get the job done well. His year last year was not great, but then no ones was.
10. Mel Mitchell - second year player who saw the field at all very little last year. Now he\'s going to be a starter... they\'re real big on him... just like they were about Hodge last off-season, how\'d that work out again? oh yeah, not very well.
11. ???????? - we have no idea who our free safety will be at this point. As of right now it\'s Jay Bellamy. He\'s not so good.

So, Gator, who exactly on our defense is a solid player? Who has good experience to draw from? Who is obviously talented? Who has a proven track record with this team? Go ahead, throw two more rookies in there with our other two first time starters.

That\'s what I base my arguments on Gator. Those beliefs. What do you base yours on? Venturi\'s incredible ability to put a good d out on the field every game? You knowledge that these players, who mostly have no experience or a shotty track record will somehow all play up to or above the potential that the Saints believe that they have this year? Your ability to predict who the Saints will draft and how they will play this season?

Prove me wrong Gator. Give me hard facts about the players. Give me your beliefs about the players. And a couple other things:

1. I will bet you any amount of money that you want the the Saints will pass up extremely talented quarterbacks, runningbacks, wide recievers, defensive ends, etc etc etc in the draft, b/c they are filling holes. Those holes exist, in the organization\'s mind, at S, CB, LB, DT, and TE. Name the price Gator. If they could draft for best available and a great wide out was still around, that means that they would take him, b/c he is the best available player still on the board. There is no way that they will do that.

2. See above. Prove to me that this team has a player who is talented and expereinced, who doesn\'t have some question surround his ability. Thomas and Howard. That\'s it. And Thomas is getting old... and he\'s small.

3. No I did not say that to down play all rookies Haslett might draft, and now who is skating Gator? Saints rookies haven\'t played particularly well in their first seasons. Last year was a hell of an exception to that, I would expect it to be very easy for you to make an argument. Apparently, you cannot disprove that statement.

4. Again, there is absolutely no \"backtracking\" in that statement. I acknowledge that rookies can help (Grant, Stallworth, and Bentley all did last season). However, there were free agent acquisitions that player as well or better... and Stallworth admitted that having veterans around him made things easier. You\'re calling it backtracking b/c you cannot disprove that statement. And since you also cannot prove that our defense has talented experienced veterans, to admit to this means that you\'re admitting that our defensive draftees this season are not likely to play up to potential b/c they do not have the veteran support that they need.

It sure seems to me like I\'m the one making all the statements about this team, and you\'re just sitting back there going, \"Nuh uh\". So Gator, why don\'t you actually make a statement about this team\'s defense and try to back it up? Can you do that? I haven\'t seen you do it yet.

ok guys, im goin to end this arguement... up to this point i have to agree with whodat in that we havent made the biggest splash in the FA market that we could have... but yet, free agency isnt over yet.... there is still the draft.... and after june 1st.. many players will be cut... so it will give us another shot at picking up some solid players on D...which i expect them to do....

Just a few of your comments WhoDat from different posts in this thread.

Hey Billy, I agree that they have a plan. But having a plan doesn\'t mean that you have a GOOD plan. Think about this. Up to this point they have been very successful at improving our offense right? That has been the focus up until now. Well, of the entire offense, only Stallworth, Deuce, and Bentley were brought in via the draft.

Ok WhoDat...just because YOU don\'t agree with the teams plan does NOT...repeat....does NOT make it a bad plan. It just makes your idea of theirs wrong IMHO. To look at the paragraph above one is lead to believe that all you want is free agents and very few ORIGINAL draftees.

Now, I\'m not sure about this, but as of right now I believe that Howard, Grant, Allen, Hodge, Craver, and Mitchell were all Saints draft picks. Of those, only Howard has more than two years experience. Now you\'re talking about adding another two or three rookies to the mix? I don\'t know about that.

C\'mon, you make it sound like we\'ve not even tried on D in free agency. Give me a break!

You\'re saying that rookies will make this team better. I\'m saying that there is no assurances of that... your odds are better when you sign a FA of knowing what you\'re getting b/c you have real NFL experience to base your decision on.

Reading this statement one is now lead to believe you\'d like even LESS original draftees. I tell ya what...let\'s go with the odds. Hell, let\'s have a whole team of free agents. Odds are we\'d be better. Why should we waste our time and money on someone who has \'potential\'. Sign a free agent. Odds are we\'d be better. What a waste of time. Let\'s just stock our team with free agents. Odds are we\'d be better. Let\'s go with the odds. Anything else would be a horrible decision, waste of time, and resources. Lord knows we don\'t have time to wait. Time is running out!! Let\'s use NFL experience to base our decisions on. Odds are we\'d be better.

Try to hear me this time Gator. Building a team with a mix of free agents, draftees, and resigned players is the best way to build a team... can you argue with that?

Sure that can be argued. You said earlier that odds are better when you sign a free agent. Draftees??? Fahgetaboutit....let\'s trade our draft picks for, and sign free agents. After all, you said it. \"your odds are better when you sign a FA of knowing what you\'re getting b/c you have real NFL experience to base your decision on\". So, letÃƒÂ¢Ã¢Â‚Â¬Ã¢Â„Â¢s do that. Let\'s go with the odds. Odds are we\'d be better.

Again, the proof is in the pudding Gator. Look at the Super Bowl teams for the last few years... Tampa rebuilt their offense primarily through free agency, Oakland is nothing but free agents, St. Louis rebuilt their defense via free agents and the draft, new england, new york, baltimore... it\'s all the same.

Rebuilt, rebuilt, rebuilt, just like every team does. EVEN the Saints. Just because they don\'t do it the way WhoDat wants it done doesn\'t make it wrong. Name me the big time free agents that put these teams over the top.

It\'s not 100% free agents versus 100% draftees.

Using WhoDat \"odds are\" logic, we should make it 100% free agents. After all, \"your odds are better when you sign a FA of knowing what you\'re getting b/c you have real NFL experience to base your decision on\". So let\'s make it all free agents. Odds are we\'d be better.

The point is that neither of us KNOWS what is going to happen.

That\'s right. THAT is exactly right. Truth is, you, Gator, Pak, me, Haslett, Loomis, etc, etc, etc, have no way of knowing what is going to happen. No one knows what will happen. The coaches and staff are putting together the team THEY want. The team THEY think will give them the best chance of winning. In the end we\'ll find out. I think they\'re going about it the right way.

They\'ll be good players in New Orleans for at least the next three seasons, before they have a breakout year, we refuse to pay them, and they go somewhere else where there is a winning tradition, bigger market, and of course, more money.

This is the kind of statement that really just pi$$es me off coming from anyone. Why not just head up a \"let\'s get rid of the Saints\" movement!! What\'s the purpose of having a team if that\'s ALL they do?? Don\'t even try to tell me that is NOT what YOU think they do because, THAT is EXACTLY what you JUST said. There were ZERO exceptions in your statement. So, why have a team? Why even bother? Why spend your time and effort even posting or thinking about the team, the future, or anything that has to do with the Saints if we\'re all just wasting our time. That\'s a ridiculous blanket statement.

Bottom line is:
The draft is around the corner.
The off-season is not over.

Dean Vernon Wormer: Mr. Hoover, president of Delta house? One point six; four C's and an F. A fine example you set! Daniel Simpson Day... HAS no grade point average. All courses incomplete. Mr. Blu - MR. BLUTARSKY... ZERO POINT ZERO.John 'Bluto' Blutarsky: Christ. Seven years of college down the drain. Might as well join the f@$%ing Peace Corps.

In my opinion, fans that have stuck with teams through thick and thin have every right to berate the team, if they so choose. I\'ve been a fan of the Saints for the past 20 years, I\'ve seen how this organization operates, and can honestly say that this is the SOS I see every year (with the exception of the years that Muller was GM, and like everything else, he was shown the door). I can honestly say that there has not been a single better evaluator of talent that has been part of this organization, then Muller. But now he\'s gone because Benson didn\'t approve of some of his moves. And that last statement pretty much sums up what has taken place on this team for the past 20 years, both the good years and the bad.

As for your final comment - see B&B\'s post. I pull for the Saints no matter what, but being a fan does not, under any circumstances, mean I need to check my brain at the door. If I think that what they\'re doing is wrong, I\'m going to say it. That doesn\'t make me less of a fan.

As for your other comments. You and Gator have a hard time understanding that wanting more or better free agents is not mutually exclusive of wanting a good draft. If you were to bet on who would have a better year this year, and your choices were Brian Urlacher, Ray Lewis, Takeo Spikes, and EJ Henderson, who would you pick? If you picked Henderson then either you don\'t like money or you\'re unrealistically optimistic about Henderson\'s abilities. Is it impossible that Henderson will play better than both? Absolutely not - but if it were your money on the line you\'d probably put it on a guys who has proven that he can play in this league year in and year out. I would.

That is my point. You DO have a much clearer picture of what you\'re getting when you sign free agents as compared to draftees. Does that mean I am against drafting players? Apparently it does to you, but then again it appears that you have a hard time understanding a person can want a good free agency AND a good draft in the same year.

I mean, really, if I use your ridiculous way of looking at things then it becomes obvious to me that you hate free agents. You want to cut every player on our defense and simply draft an entire new defense. Right? B/c you like draft picks so that means that you have to HATE current players and free agents. Right? Hopefully now you see how utterly stupid it is to assume that I only want free agents and no draft picks.

I mean, do you and Gator not like Shelton Quarles or Chris Claiborne? Are they not better than Ruff or Smith? We could have signed those guys. We didn\'t. We didn\'t sign any proven players on defense. That seems to be ok with you guys, b/c hey everything will be better once we draft new guys. Again, our draftees can help. But what\'s better, Ambrose, Ruff, Bailey and Doss, or Jones, Quarles, Bailey, and Trufant? That\'s not a very difficult question for me to answer. Apparently it is for you two. The second scenario could have been a reality, but the Saints dropped the ball.

If it looks like s--t, and it smells like s--t, then it probably is s--t. Well I\'m calling our pre-draft free agency period (the most important time in free agency) s--t from a defensive perspective. You guys seem to believe that drafting players will magically turn that s--t into a daisy. Doesn\'t work that way guys. We\'ll still have a pile of s--t and a daisy instead of two daisies.

You\'re right, I do weigh past performance heavily as an indicator of future value. And again, you\'re right in that Mitchell could step up, so could Allen, Ruff, Hodge, and even Hand.

I won\'t quibble over the little things (like Hand\'s 01 season which was not good), or the fact that you IDed two players as the next big star on our defense... b/c I know what you\'re getting at. I\'m able to see your point at large rather than only the little things.

Again, the basic difference here is that you are optimistic and I am not. I applaud you for your hope. I just don\'t have it. After two collapses, a defense that has gotten progressively worse on the field over the last two years, and in terms of talent 9we lost a lot of it), and a terrible D-coordinator, I just don\'t see them getting much better (again my qualifier remains \'unless they add some proven quality players to the D\').

I hope that Mitchell pans out... and Ruff, and Allen, and Carter, and Hodge\'s play improves, And Jackson and Hand lose the weight and play up to potential, and Thomas stays healthy, and Grant continues to get better, and our rookies can make an impact.... that\'s just a lot of ifs and it seems nearly impossible of all of them coming true.