I mean, other than for legacy reasons? As a man, I have the same legal rights and responsibilities as a woman. However, there is still some ways to go for both directions. Men have fewer rights to family (no say in abortions, teenage fathers are treated as optional appendages by social services, paternity leave is barely a fraction of maternity leave in many countries), and I'm at the poorer end of the gender pay gap (women in their twenties in the UK earn about 4% more than men of the same age). There is a significant power-difference politically, with government still being a largely, though certainly not exclusively, male activity, and banking being a veritable sausage party.

Don't take me as anti-feminist, but shouldn't both men and women be fighting for both men and women? Isn't it time to change the name?

_________________Moon - "This is the best recipe in the history of recipes forever."

Post subject: Re: Why is feminism called feminism and not egalitarianism?

Posted: Tue Dec 18, 2012 8:45 am

Seagull of the PPK

Joined: Tue Oct 19, 2010 6:46 pmPosts: 9092Location: Brasil

i think the name was taken in an attempt to bring women "up to men's level" and maybe give more attention to women as compensation, even if the goal was egalitarianism.I can understand your frustration, lack of rights for anyone is problematic.

here women still are making about 25% less than men in the same job [which was the same in the US when i was there] and still face an uphill climb, despite legal equality-- discrimination is still rampant, and it's assumed that household tasks will be taken care of by women [in addition to other responsibilities, in "all their free time"].

Post subject: Re: Why is feminism called feminism and not egalitarianism?

Posted: Tue Dec 18, 2012 8:48 am

WRETCHED

Joined: Tue Oct 19, 2010 6:54 pmPosts: 9265Location: Maryland/DC area

Wow, women get paid more than men in any age bracket in the UK? Sadly, I think men in every age bracket in the US get paid more than women and in some instances, a lot more.

I can't speak for feminism but I think that you can't cure the ills of the world with any one movement. I mean I understand men may feel they are lacking in certain rights but I'm not sure every women would agree with those rights like abortions. Like I'd be pretty mad if the father of a fetus could stop a woman from having an abortion. Sure its his sperm but its her body that would have to carry the baby and give birth. And in regards to things like paternity/maternity leave, a woman's body is preparing for birth and recovering from birth. Due to her breast milk, she is also considered the primary caregiver. Now these day and age, there are pumps and formula and whatever else but those things can be expensive and cumbersome. In the US though, the maternity leave is woefully lacking but we have something called FMLA where either parent can take an unpaid leave of absence for 6 weeks? I don't think there really is strictly maternity leave, it all falls under FMLA.

Basically, I don't know the right answer but you may actually start to clash with ideologies. I don't think it is necessary to put all issues important to various groups of people under one huge umbrella. Sometimes you need smaller umbrellas for various issues and points of view.

_________________You are all a disgrace to vegans. Go f*ck yourselves, especially linanil.

Hmm... let's say Adam had testicular cancer and saved up some sperm in a bank before he had to have his testicles surgically removed. He makes a full recovery. Hurrah!

He meets Eve, they fall in love and decide to make a baby, and the IVF uses up all the sperm specimens available. She's not 100% sure about it, but she loves him, she thinks, and month in to the pregnancy, she changes her mind and has an abortion. She considers claiming she miscarried, but is honest with him. Her body, her rules. She wasn't ready for children.

They break up.

She meets someone else, and lives happily ever after, and so do all her children and grandchildren.

He meets someone else, and they want to start a family. Adam is no longer able to reproduce. They adopt, which takes a very long time and every part of their lives is scrutinised, and they eventually adopt a child whom they love dearly. However, Adam spends the rest of his life wondering what could have been, and never fully adjusts to being a genetic dead-end.

Which was more important? Eve's right to not reproduce at that time, or Adam's right to reproduce at all

_________________Moon - "This is the best recipe in the history of recipes forever."

I'd like to see some documentation of women being paid higher than men. If that's the case where you live, that's extremely rare circumstances. A quick google search will confirm that.

And that thought experiment you posted is so bullocks I don't even know where to begin.

_________________Did you notice the slight feeling of panic at the words "Chicken Basin Street"? Like someone was walking over your grave? Try not to remember. We must never remember. - mumblesIs this about devilberries and nazifruit again? - footface

Post subject: Re: Why is feminism called feminism and not egalitarianism?

Posted: Tue Dec 18, 2012 9:41 am

Semen Strong

Joined: Tue Oct 19, 2010 7:10 pmPosts: 19895Location: Cliffbar NJ

I think men and women should absolutely all fight together for social justice.

That said, I think there are certain areas where women have historically been disadvantaged and are still disadvantaged based solely on their gender - women often aren't taken as seriously, they may not be promoted as quickly etc. And feminism is a way to draw attention to those specific gender-based inequalities. And men should absolutely be working to change those.

That said, I don't want men to have a say in abortions. Its a woman's body and should be her choice. And as for the wage gap between men and women, I'm pretty confident it has to do with the fact that there are slightly more women graduating from uni. So nowadays, you have women graduating from uni at slightly over 50%, but then they often languish at the same payscale while men rapidly get pay increases. And once they have children the situation becomes worse. Even in the US until women have kids, they earn about 90% of what similarly situated college grads get. But once they have kids it becomes about 66%. We average that out to get to the statistic that women get paid 75% of what men make.

Gulliver wrote:

Men have fewer rights to family (no say in abortions, teenage fathers are treated as optional appendages by social services, paternity leave is barely a fraction of maternity leave in many countries), and I'm at the poorer end of the gender pay gap (women in their twenties in the UK earn about 4% more than men of the same age).

_________________My oven is bigger on the inside, and it produces lots of wibbly wobbly, cake wakey... stuff. - The PoopieB.

Putting my thoughts about the thought experiment under spoiler tags because it seems like the right thing to do. A lot of my thoughts on this are still convoluted but I'd agree with Linanil, there are a whole lot of buckets of injustice out there and we can't just bucket it into one though there is a LOT of inter-connectedness. I'm also really uncomfortable with the idea because women aren't equal yet. Feminism is about a lot of different things and for me at least, paternity leave is totally a feminist thing by taking the onus off solely the mom to care for the child in it's youngest months (just a random thought on one of the things you put out there)

Eve's right to not reproduce at that time. I'm sorry, but it's her body, I recognize that it's hard in a situation like that but someone else's desire for children does not override a woman's right to decide what happens in her body.

_________________"Vegan to me means Oreos for breakfast." -Poopiebitch"tl;dr: I quit working to drink beer paid for with gift cards" erikasoyf*cker

Post subject: Re: Why is feminism called feminism and not egalitarianism?

Posted: Tue Dec 18, 2012 10:05 am

Drunk Dialed Ian MacKaye

Joined: Fri Oct 22, 2010 5:47 pmPosts: 1868Location: NC

I think that coming up with bizarre scenarios isn't terribly helpful. I mean, not to say it's impossible, but IVF is a pretty damn invasive and expensive procedure, so I doubt that it is very common that anyone is going to say "oopsies" after using up all that time, money, and effort. Maybe before; maybe during, but after? I mean, I can imagine realistic scenarios where I think the man should have a say; I've been with my husband 15 years, we have one kid, I'm almost done with grad school. If I were to get pregnant right now, I do think his opinion should matter in the decision I would make because we've both deeply heavily in the life we have together. Still, I don't think he should be able to tell me that I AM or that I AM NOT going to go through with the (hypothetical) pregnancy.

As for overall equal rights, I do agree that we should all be concerned with everyone's rights, but realistically, those in historically disadvantaged positions kind of need to get even. If politics is male dominated, as are other powerful professions, then women aren't in the same position to make the same sorts of changes. I'm sure a PPKer will come along and state that sentiment much more eloquently than I did, but you get the gist.

In reference to "thought experiments" I'd really rather hear what you want to come out as the answer to an unfortunate predicament as that. For the woman to not have that right?

My answer would be a rather grisly "bad things happen, sorry" and that he should move on with his life as best he can, but I wouldn't throw the woman a parade, either. I honestly don't think there's anything resembling a clean answer to this, and never will be and never was. Is exercising a right always right? It's a woman's right to control her own body as best she can, but shouldn't she listen to the father as well, can't she take his future and right to family into consideration? It could be arguable that she's breaching the Universal Declaration of Human Rights (well, if you're arguing it to a robot). What about if a bone marrow transplant could be the only thing to save the father's life? Should she be tried for manslaughter? Somewhere, a philosopher is crying.

I'm not in any way saying "oh, poor men, those nasty feminists took all our rights!" or anything as snotty as that. I feel the same way about "gay rights" issues: there's no such thing, only human rights issues, it's just that some of being ignored by the use of "ifs" and "buts".

As an addendum to the gender pay gap thing, I did some more searching and in the UK women in part time work earn more than men in part time work, with the figures reversed for full time. Men earn more over all, but women in their twenties earn more than men in their twenties. So, it's a sign that things are probably changing for the better.

ijustdiedinside wrote:

have you read up on IVF? i haven't been through it, but it's a pretty huge deal to a woman's body and in terms of cost. not something to just be an extremely hypothetical "thought experiment"

All thought experiments are hypothetical! That's sort of the point of them, for examining the logic of an issue that would be too unwieldy to enact. My degree was part-philosophy, so we had a few of them thrown at us and it's just the vocabulary that's used for it - it's just a "hypothetical situation". For anyone interested in philosophy or thinking about thinking, I recommend The Pig That Wants To Be Eaten: And Ninety-nine Other Thought Experiments by Julian Baggini (the name is a reference to the Hitchiker's Guide books, not some quirky anti-vegan rant).

_________________Moon - "This is the best recipe in the history of recipes forever."

Last edited by Gulliver on Tue Dec 18, 2012 10:42 am, edited 1 time in total.

Post subject: Re: Why is feminism called feminism and not egalitarianism?

Posted: Tue Dec 18, 2012 10:41 am

Heeeerrrrree's JACKY!

Joined: Wed Oct 20, 2010 1:39 pmPosts: 4245Location: the Eug

Are you saying (I don't think so, but that is certainly how it reads) that if you are a match for an organ or marrow, you are required to give? If you don't than you should face legal action?

When you start saying there are no gay rights, or women's rights or the rights of whatever marginalized group you may be taking about, you need to be very aware that unless you are part of that marginalized group, you are talking over them from a place of privilege. Often from a place that does not understand that privilege. Just saying.

Post subject: Re: Why is feminism called feminism and not egalitarianism?

Posted: Tue Dec 18, 2012 10:46 am

Had sex with a vampire that sparkles.

Joined: Tue Oct 19, 2010 6:24 pmPosts: 5561Location: BRLA

I don't think anyone would argue that there are plenty of sucky unfair things that happen in life that there are no way of making fair.

As a woman I kind of resent that if I become pregnant I'm completely stuck with the decision of what happens from there. The father is free to say "yeah, let's have it!" or "no, let's abort it!" and then change his mind and blame me for the rest of his life for not making the right choice. It's unfair that a guy can leave the choice up to a woman and then come back later and complain that she made the wrong choice or make her feel guilty. Unfair, but it happens, and I wouldn't have it any other way. This happens often and is not just hypothetical.

Are you saying (I don't think so, but that is certainly how it reads) that if you are a match for an organ or marrow, you are required to give? If you don't than you should face legal action?

Now that is an interesting question, to which the answer is an easy "no".

I'm mostly playing devil's advocate, really, and I didn't mean to turn this into an argument about theoretical orchidectomes and abortions. I mentioned the gay rights thing because, as a gay man, I don't like being told that my rights are special. The only way my rights are different is that I'm denied some of them (specifically, marriage, though that's rumbling around politically again). Women's human rights aren't being met, just as men's human rights aren't in differing areas. They are human rights, not special rights awarded to some but not others. That's what I meant.

Anyway, I think this thread spiralled fairly early on and it's probably my fault for overthinking things and mentioning though experiments and playing devil's advocate where it wasn't needed. Didn't think that one through...

_________________Moon - "This is the best recipe in the history of recipes forever."

Post subject: Re: Why is feminism called feminism and not egalitarianism?

Posted: Tue Dec 18, 2012 11:04 am

Semen Strong

Joined: Tue Oct 19, 2010 7:10 pmPosts: 19895Location: Cliffbar NJ

Gulliver wrote:

As an addendum to the gender pay gap thing, I did some more searching and in the UK women in part time work earn more than men in part time work, with the figures reversed for full time. Men earn more over all, but women in their twenties earn more than men in their twenties. So, it's a sign that things are probably changing for the better.

As I said in my post up thread, it really isn't. If the difference between the part time and full time figures is because more skilled women have to be in part time rather than full time positions to be able to accommodate their family situations etc, it isn't a sign that things are getting better. Its a sign that more and more highly educated and skilled women are being pushed into part time work, rather than having workplaces cater to their needs. And in the US the difference between part and full time is benefits.

And if more women are graduating than men, it makes sense that they are going into the work force earning more initially and then being pushed out, which is why the initial wage gap quickly shifts and flips.

Quote:

I feel the same way about "gay rights" issues: there's no such thing, only human rights issues, it's just that some of being ignored by the use of "ifs" and "buts".

I think there are issues that affect people because of their orientation, like housing availability, employment discrimination etc. Yes social justice should focus on eliminating all discrimination, but its helpful to focus on particular issues to tailor the solution.

In NYC, there is a large population of homeless LGBT teens, who are often on the streets because of their orientation. They are discriminated against and often highly at risk for HIV infection (1 in 5) and other STDs. They are so marginalized, even in the shelters, its tragic. Yes, we could say its terrible that anyone is on the street, but these kids face particular challenges and solving them takes a tailored solution, not just more shelters.http://www.newyorker.com/online/blogs/c ... storm.html

_________________My oven is bigger on the inside, and it produces lots of wibbly wobbly, cake wakey... stuff. - The PoopieB.

But what if Adam's baby would have grown up to push a brain in a jar off of some train tracks, saving thousands of lives when the brain in a jar then goes on to invent padded cars so nobody is hurt by being run over any more? Except that the train goes on to hit a schoolbus full of children and nuns farther down the track, but would have stopped if it had hit the brain in the jar earlier on, and so by saving the brain and all those thousands of people the children and nuns were sacrificed? Except...

Post subject: Re: Why is feminism called feminism and not egalitarianism?

Posted: Tue Dec 18, 2012 11:25 am

Vegan Since Before There Were Vegetables

Joined: Sun Sep 05, 2010 8:43 pmPosts: 11303Location: Astoria, NY

I think its complete bullshiitake when people say they are just playing devils advocate so they can to have an excuse to say whatever messed up things they want. Your thought experiment was thoughtless and isn't any less so because you were saying it for arguments sake.

_________________I am not a troll. I am TELLING YOU THE ******GOD'S TRUTH****** AND YOU JUST DON'T WANT THE HEAR IT DO YOU?

Post subject: Re: Why is feminism called feminism and not egalitarianism?

Posted: Tue Dec 18, 2012 11:30 am

Not NOT A Furry

Joined: Sat Sep 15, 2012 7:11 pmPosts: 474

Feminism is a way of addressing the issue of egalitarianism from the perspective of a group that is specifically disadvantaged with regard to egalitarian issues, the same way that racism is an egalitarian issue that is addressed by the specific groups who are directly affected.

Patriarchy is structural. Certainly there are situations where it inadvertently puts men at a disadvantage, but even in those cases it's because of the way women are intentionally disempowered. A man is less likely to win a child custody battle because women are kept in the role of caregivers and seen as less fit for "men's work," such as a doctor or car mechanic or engineer. A man is forced to put on a uniform and risk death in battle because women are seen as too fragile and weak for that manly macho stuff. Patriarchy negatively affects everyone, but women are specifically intended to be disempowered by the system and have a vested interest in addressing it from their perspective.

Post subject: Re: Why is feminism called feminism and not egalitarianism?

Posted: Tue Dec 18, 2012 11:34 am

Semen Strong

Joined: Tue Oct 19, 2010 7:10 pmPosts: 19895Location: Cliffbar NJ

ijustdiedinside wrote:

I think its complete bullshiitake when people say they are just playing devils advocate so they can to have an excuse to say whatever messed up things they want. Your thought experiment was thoughtless and isn't any less so because you were saying it for arguments sake.

This whole thread reeks of privilege. :)

_________________My oven is bigger on the inside, and it produces lots of wibbly wobbly, cake wakey... stuff. - The PoopieB.

Last edited by Tofulish on Tue Dec 18, 2012 11:37 am, edited 1 time in total.

Post subject: Re: Why is feminism called feminism and not egalitarianism?

Posted: Tue Dec 18, 2012 11:35 am

Invented Vegan Meringue

Joined: Mon Jul 04, 2011 1:50 pmPosts: 3470Location: The Bene

Pyewacket wrote:

Feminism is a way of addressing the issue of egalitarianism from the perspective of a group that is specifically disadvantaged with regard to egalitarian issues, the same way that racism is an egalitarian issue that is addressed by the specific groups who are directly affected.

Patriarchy is structural. Certainly there are situations where it inadvertently puts men at a disadvantage, but even in those cases it's because of the way women are intentionally disempowered. A man is less likely to win a child custody battle because women are kept in the role of caregivers and seen as less fit for "men's work," such as a doctor or car mechanic or engineer. A man is forced to put on a uniform and risk death in battle because women are seen as too fragile and weak for that manly macho stuff. Patriarchy negatively affects everyone, but women are specifically intended to be disempowered by the system and have a vested interest in addressing it from their perspective.

+1 yummy!

_________________Ain't no guarantees in life, and nothing that comes out of my vagina can change that. - Erika Soyf*cker

You forgot the right of potential sentient beings to not be brought to life without their consent. Oops!

Pregnant host is the only one to make the decision about their pregnancy.

I support men's right to abortion. That includes pregnant (trans, in case anyone's wondering) men's right to abort their pregnancies. But, it also includes the right of men (and women) who have impregnated others and don't want to have children to have nothing to do with their biological children (financially, socially, medically) if the hosts bring their pregnancies to term (of course, they would have to decide while an abortion is still doable, so that the hosts can decide if they want to go through it alone).

Having female reproductive organs, I'm terrified of the possibility that I might end up pregnant, but, if I had male reproductive organs, I'd be way more terrified.

Post subject: Re: Why is feminism called feminism and not egalitarianism?

Posted: Tue Dec 18, 2012 12:01 pm

WRETCHED

Joined: Tue Oct 19, 2010 6:54 pmPosts: 9265Location: Maryland/DC area

rhelune wrote:

But, it also includes the right of men (and women) who have impregnated others and don't want to have children to have nothing to do with their biological children (financially, socially, medically) if the hosts bring their pregnancies to term (of course, they would have to decide while an abortion is still doable, so that the hosts can decide if they want to go through it alone).

I don't know what your laws are like but in the US, the laws regarding parental responsibility has really been fairly recent and I don't know to what extent that includes those who never sign up to parental responsibility (name not on birth certificate and such). They were also really put in place because the government didn't want to take the financial responsibility for single parents. My experience happens to do with a father who divorced my mom when I was 6 and decided he really didn't want to be a father at that point. In the end, he was forced to pay a measly monthly amount for a few years until I turned 18 (from about the age of 14-18). Other responsibilities were not a requirement.

_________________You are all a disgrace to vegans. Go f*ck yourselves, especially linanil.

Post subject: Re: Why is feminism called feminism and not egalitarianism?

Posted: Tue Dec 18, 2012 12:08 pm

Should Spend More Time Helping the Animals

Joined: Tue Dec 07, 2010 4:57 pmPosts: 6522Location: Boston, MA

lepelaar wrote:

Pyewacket wrote:

Feminism is a way of addressing the issue of egalitarianism from the perspective of a group that is specifically disadvantaged with regard to egalitarian issues, the same way that racism is an egalitarian issue that is addressed by the specific groups who are directly affected.

Patriarchy is structural. Certainly there are situations where it inadvertently puts men at a disadvantage, but even in those cases it's because of the way women are intentionally disempowered. A man is less likely to win a child custody battle because women are kept in the role of caregivers and seen as less fit for "men's work," such as a doctor or car mechanic or engineer. A man is forced to put on a uniform and risk death in battle because women are seen as too fragile and weak for that manly macho stuff. Patriarchy negatively affects everyone, but women are specifically intended to be disempowered by the system and have a vested interest in addressing it from their perspective.

+1 yummy!

Yes.

_________________I would eat Dr. Cow pocket cheese in a second. I would eat it if you hid it under your hat, or in your backpack, but not if it was in your shoe. That's where I draw the line. -allularpunk