Is it customary of Western Rite parishes for the eucharist to be unleavened!?

I could never commune there. Honestly, while I think the Western Rite is well intentioned, it is not well organized enough. I have heard enough scary stories of issues with various Western Rite churches. If the Church is to pursue a "Western Rite," (I'm not entirely convinced it should, don't beat me up), there needs to be some organization.

Frankly, I don't like recreating traditions that have been long dead. It smells of the Protestants trying to create the "New Testament Church." It leads only to divisiveness, as evidenced by priests and their bishops fighting in threads all over the internet about what is "proper" and "traditional" for each of their different Western Rite liturgies.

It seems to me that the Western Rite is largely a pastoral option for RC and Anglican parishes that want to become Orthodox but retain their practices as much as possible. I don't personally foresee the Western Rite ever becoming an end unto itself. Not in any large-scale way, at least.

Quis custodiet ipsos custodes? Who can watch the watchmen?"No one is paying attention to your post reports"Why do posters that claim to have me blocked keep sending me pms and responding to my posts? That makes no sense.

Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.A hasty quarrel kindles fire,and urgent strife sheds blood.If you blow on a spark, it will glow;if you spit on it, it will be put out; and both come out of your mouth

I could never commune there. Honestly, while I think the Western Rite is well intentioned, it is not well organized enough. I have heard enough scary stories of issues with various Western Rite churches. If the Church is to pursue a "Western Rite," (I'm not entirely convinced it should, don't beat me up), there needs to be some organization.

Frankly, I don't like recreating traditions that have been long dead. It smells of the Protestants trying to create the "New Testament Church." It leads only to divisiveness, as evidenced by priests and their bishops fighting in threads all over the internet about what is "proper" and "traditional" for each of their different Western Rite liturgies.

of course, that NEVER happens with the Eastern rite liturgics

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Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.A hasty quarrel kindles fire,and urgent strife sheds blood.If you blow on a spark, it will glow;if you spit on it, it will be put out; and both come out of your mouth

Sometimes in my ex-Roman Catholic parish (although it's Novus Ordo") they read Roman Martyrologium. I remember this growing tension, it was done in darkens and this reading "some years from this, some years from that" and the end "Christ is born", the lamps are turned on and the carol begins the solemn Mass.

And nice, humble chanting. I only wonder the way of giving the Eucharist, I mean that one priest is keeping two chalices, it looks a bit dangerous that they may fall down. From what I noticed in Western rites, when the Communion is being given, there are two men (e.g a priest and a deacon/altar servant) to keep the chalices. I've heard also that some Roman Catholic churches that practice giving the Body and the Blood, have some special arranged chalices - divided into two parts, that one priest is able to carry it.

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Pray for persecuted Christians, especially in Serbian Kosovo and Raška, Egypt and Syria

Is it customary of Western Rite parishes for the eucharist to be unleavened!?

No. Why would you think it is?

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I could never commune there. Honestly, while I think the Western Rite is well intentioned, it is not well organized enough.

The AWRV is extremely well-organized, what more would you want?

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I have heard enough scary stories of issues with various Western Rite churches. If the Church is to pursue a "Western Rite," (I'm not entirely convinced it should, don't beat me up), there needs to be some organization.

There is plenty of organization. You can't hear stories from one camp, and then apply them to the endeavor as a whole.

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Frankly, I don't like recreating traditions that have been long dead. It smells of the Protestants trying to create the "New Testament Church." It leads only to divisiveness, as evidenced by priests and their bishops fighting in threads all over the internet about what is "proper" and "traditional" for each of their different Western Rite liturgies.

I agree. That is why the AWRV assumed the living tradition of Western catholics.

I agree. That is why the AWRV assumed the living tradition of Western catholics.

An ad libitum form of the Novus Ordo Mass with heterodox hymns?

The WRO predate the Novus Ordo.

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Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.A hasty quarrel kindles fire,and urgent strife sheds blood.If you blow on a spark, it will glow;if you spit on it, it will be put out; and both come out of your mouth

I agree. That is why the AWRV assumed the living tradition of Western catholics.

An ad libitum form of the Novus Ordo Mass with heterodox hymns?

Yes, to have the priviledge of singing "Oh, little town of bethlehem" instead of the Proper Chants of the mass is not one of the reasons most people become Orthodox. Heterodox hymns indeed. It's not that the a hymn or two is necessarily totally wrong, especially when kept to a minimum, but to have such an emphasis on them AT THE EXPENSE of the proper gregorian chant is unacceptable.

They should have an introit with this melody

and somewhere in there ought to be the Sequence:

« Last Edit: March 16, 2013, 08:22:04 PM by Christopher McAvoy »

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"and for all who are Orthodox, and who hold the Catholic and Apostolic Faith, remember, O Lord, thy servants" - yet the post-conciliar RC hierarchy is tolerant of everyone and everything... except Catholic Tradition, for modernists are as salt with no taste, to be “thrown out and trampled under foot

I agree. That is why the AWRV assumed the living tradition of Western catholics.

An ad libitum form of the Novus Ordo Mass with heterodox hymns?

The WRO predate the Novus Ordo.

And let us hope it will postdate it.

But in all seriousness, the Novus Ordo is but culmination of tons of reforms since the end of World War II. I believe the AWRV didn't originate from Roman Catholicism, but from the Society of St. Basil, a group that originated in the 30s. The Liturgical Movement was active then, trying to return to the roots of the rite of St. Gregory (and it took a horrible turn after WWII).

Easter 2011 Western Rite Orthodox Mass (includes Lauds)It's from an Antiochian Orthodox Western Rite parish, Holy Incarnation , near Detroit.This is arguably a better example than the previous video.

Wonderful video. Thank you for posting it. I've never been to a Western Rite service and its nice to see a full video. Perhaps I need to head over to Detroit sometime to check it out.

I'm really happy to see an icon of Our Lady of Częstochowa in the church.

There is a Our Lady of Walsingham in the back too. No Lourdes or Fatima that I remember.

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Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.A hasty quarrel kindles fire,and urgent strife sheds blood.If you blow on a spark, it will glow;if you spit on it, it will be put out; and both come out of your mouth

It seems to me that the Western Rite is largely a pastoral option for RC and Anglican parishes that want to become Orthodox but retain their practices as much as possible. I don't personally foresee the Western Rite ever becoming an end unto itself. Not in any large-scale way, at least.

I agree- it will always be a niche, especially as East-West dichotomies continue to crumble.

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Radiates, vegetables, monstrosities, star spawn— whatever they had been, they were men!

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If you would like a private forum for non-polemical topics, comment here.

I never quite understood the use of leavened wafers. Surely partaking in a common bread is even more important than the use of leaven?

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It seems to me that the Western Rite is largely a pastoral option for RC and Anglican parishes that want to become Orthodox but retain their practices as much as possible. I don't personally foresee the Western Rite ever becoming an end unto itself. Not in any large-scale way, at least.

It seems to me that it is slightly concerning if unleavened bread is used for the eucharist. This was a major subject in the Church which contributed to the schism. So unless those Fathers that defended Orthodoxy are also "hyperdox," I respectfully ask you not call me that.

Quis custodiet ipsos custodes? Who can watch the watchmen?"No one is paying attention to your post reports"Why do posters that claim to have me blocked keep sending me pms and responding to my posts? That makes no sense.

I'd have to agree. The vestments, music, liturgical texts, flow of service, etc, are all distinctly Eastern. It's inescapable.

If I've "grown used to it" I and many, many converts did it so quickly as to invalidate your East/West essentialism. WR will always be a niche because most "Western" Orthodox will never feel a need for it.

And frankly, the videos on this thread look pretty weird.

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Radiates, vegetables, monstrosities, star spawn— whatever they had been, they were men!

- Lovecraft, At the Mountains of Madness

If you would like a private forum for non-polemical topics, comment here.

It seems to me that it is slightly concerning if unleavened bread is used for the eucharist. This was a major subject in the Church which contributed to the schism. So unless those Fathers that defended Orthodoxy are also "hyperdox," I respectfully ask you not call me that.

Sorry, but being personally familiar with the historical and familial effects of the "Unia" and being respectful of the heritage of the Roman Church, I found the video as being odd - not unlike a pre- Vatican 2, new world, EC church complete with Stations of the Cross, communion rails, Sacred Heart paintings etc with a priest wearing sort of Eastern vestments.(shorter phelon with a lace sticharion) That is not the EC norm in Europe and thankfully no longer as common in North America. I do wish our western rite brothers well, I am trying to understand them better.

Also, one thing I have never heard of in EC eparchies following the Ruthenian rescension was the use of wafers or unleavened host.

A statement such as, "The Eastern Rite is not Eastern anymore" really isn't supported by fact. While they are not Orthodox, most are recognizable as being quite Eastern. The attached video is from an episcopal consecration held last fall in the Eparchy of Mucachevo, Ukraine. Externally, but for the vested Latin Rite clergy and Bishop (and the huge number of seminarians) it easily could be confused with an eastern Orthodox counterpart - such as the one that same month at Johnstown, PA at the Orthodox consecration of Bishop Gregory. In that procession, the non Orthodox clergy and bishops were not vested. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VZhUpZKSfBQ

If you entered the Byzantine Catholic church down the road from our Orthodox church in upstate NY the only indication that the Church was Catholic would be a picture of the Pope in the vestibule and the Petrine keys on the cornerstone. Otherwise you would think you were in a beautiful Orthodox church.

A statement such as, "The Eastern Rite is not Eastern anymore" really isn't supported by fact.

I'm not referring to Eastern Catholic rites. Rather, I'm speaking to the East-West essentialism exhibited on this and many other WR threads which assumes that we Orthodox in "the West" need the Western Rite because the Eastern Rite is so very foreign to our thought patterns, culture, etc. and somehow Latin and pointy mitres are encoded in our DNA. The Eastern Rite is not Eastern anymore because the cultural boundaries and hang-ups which previously divided Eastern and Western Christendom (which were never that sharp to begin with) have been so eroded and blended by globalization as to be irrelevant. The WR may be a useful tool in converting Anglicans and RC's but it will never be the rite for the majority of Orthodoxy in "the West."

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Radiates, vegetables, monstrosities, star spawn— whatever they had been, they were men!

- Lovecraft, At the Mountains of Madness

If you would like a private forum for non-polemical topics, comment here.

I don't think anyone is saying that Orthodox Christians in the West need, or ought to be Western Rite, and if they are saying that, I would be the first to disagree with them. I know many Westerners who are at home in the Eastern tradition of the Church, and every single Western Rite Orthodox I know would "go East" before reverting back to whatever it was they were before. Orthodoxy is Orthodoxy.

This "essentialism" you mentioned is often found in certain narrative thrusts of WR literature, but I think it's easily overlooked that most of the main events that brought about contemporary Western Rite Orthodoxy took place in a time much different than our own. Orthodoxy wasn't much of a presence in "the West" a hundred years ago, and someone looking to convert would have a hard time finding parishes that would welcome them, and provide any kind of service in English, etc. So there was indeed a time when any Westerner looking to join the OC found the most promise in a Western Rite.

I would say that is no longer the case. And the more "the West" drifts from its ancient Christian roots, and the more Western Christians at large embrace non-traditional, non-liturgical expressions of Christianity, the more converts to Orthodoxy will find the Eastern Rite less and less "foreign." Or at least as equally foreign as the Western Rite.

So I think you are largely correct, Iconodule. But I did want to point out that there is another way of looking at the purpose and mission of the Western Rite that isn't focused on the not-being-Eastern side of things, and I think you find this in the "conversation" as well. And that would be that the Western Rite largely exists to preserve the wide catholic heritage of the West (all that is consistent and consonant with Orthodoxy anyway), and to further nurture this ancient, living tradition within an Orthodox context. The emphasis here is in a positive direction ("Let us preserve our authentic, Apostolic heritage") rather than a negative one ("I sure don't want to become an Easterner").

And it is in this sense that I also think you are correct in that the vast majority of people who will likely embrace the Western Rite will be those who have inherited said tradition; Anglicans and Roman Catholics. I don't see anything wrong with this, and it makes sense, does it not? Indeed, the way the AWRV was set up, this was the only way possible to be Western Rite; you had to be an already existing parish, coming into Orthodoxy as a whole. Who else could this have been besides formerly Anglican/RC churches?

Numbers and size shouldn't really be a concern, in my opinion. The validity of the WR isn't dependent on how many people convert. Orthodoxy as a whole is likely going to remain on the periphery of the Western religious landscape, despite any recent gains in the last half century or so, anyway. We should be thankful that we can be Orthodox at all, and rejoice in whatever tradition the Church has blessed us with.

I believe many Americans fail to understand that despite influx of immigrants, globalization and secularization Byzantine rite or other Eastern rites are not as feasible option for many Western European people as Roman rite is. And this is true even without tinfoil theories about DNAs and essentialisms. It is really rather absurd to say anything contrary since Western and Central Europe has celebrated WR services for hundreds of years. It has probably never even occurred to most of the Western Europeans folks that Christianity isn't Western European religion. Cultures don't change overnight.

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But the stranger that dwelleth with you shall be unto you as one born among you, and thou shalt love him as thyself; for ye were strangers in the land of Egypt: I am the LORD your God.Leviticus 19:34

I'd have to agree. The vestments, music, liturgical texts, flow of service, etc, are all distinctly Eastern. It's inescapable.

If I've "grown used to it" I and many, many converts did it so quickly as to invalidate your East/West essentialism. WR will always be a niche because most "Western" Orthodox will never feel a need for it

Most Western Orthodox (no quotation marks: we/they are living in the West) aren't offered the option. I know plenty of Eastern Rite Orthodox who feel the need for it.

LOTS of Western Orthodox who feel the need for it go the Anglicans and Vatican to satisfy it, the door having been slammed in their faces facing East. That includes Eastern Orthodox who have reconciled themselves to the fact that they are living in the West, not the East, and have adopted that culture as their own, church rite being the last piece to fall into place.

Many "grown used to it" out of a thirst for the exotic, a need for the "myterious" and an urge for LARPing.

And a number of Western Orthodox-those from the East whose ancestors have confessed Orthodoxy for centuries if not millenia, who have immigrated and settled in the West and call it home now-have felt the need to embrace the WRO.

Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.A hasty quarrel kindles fire,and urgent strife sheds blood.If you blow on a spark, it will glow;if you spit on it, it will be put out; and both come out of your mouth

I believe many Americans fail to understand that despite influx of immigrants, globalization and secularization Byzantine rite or other Eastern rites are not as feasible option for many Western European people as Roman rite is. And this is true even without tinfoil theories about DNAs and essentialisms. It is really rather absurd to say anything contrary since Western and Central Europe has celebrated WR services for hundreds of years. It has probably never even occurred to most of the Western Europeans folks that Christianity isn't Western European religion. Cultures don't change overnight.

One of the problem is that Americans are used to having all sorts thrown together, at least in the major cities where most Orthodox live. Places that have arisen with the West, especially places like Finland-which has had to make the conscious choice to face West rather than East-it presents an entirely different situation. A Gothic cathedral is almost as foreign as an onion dome in America. I remember looking at the Turku Cathedral and reflecting on its Romanesque and Gothic elements reflecting Finnish roots in Western Europe, and not foreign at all (in contrast to the Dormition Cathedral in Helsinki)

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Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.A hasty quarrel kindles fire,and urgent strife sheds blood.If you blow on a spark, it will glow;if you spit on it, it will be put out; and both come out of your mouth

The primacy purpose of the latin rite is to witness to catholicity and inculturation in the Orthodox Church.

The entire world is not ment to use the Byzantine rite. Such situations are unfortunate accidents of history.

Nothing else besides that is relevant. Interesting comments but I think thats the primary point that ought to be noted.

To expect the entire world to use the byzantine rite or a single rite is preposterous.

I would just as well support the use of the Coptic rite for the Patriarchate of Alexandria or the Jacobite one in Antioch and Syria as I would the Latin rite for an Orthodox Eparchy/Diocese in Croatia or Austria.

One can easily point out a few peculiarities or difficiencies in both the videos. Neither one is quite as interesting as some of the latin non-orthodox ones on youtube, but the idea is that the rite exists in the communion with the Orthodox, regardless of how well it is celebrated, decorated, or preached. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-Lnf8AW6p-Y

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"and for all who are Orthodox, and who hold the Catholic and Apostolic Faith, remember, O Lord, thy servants" - yet the post-conciliar RC hierarchy is tolerant of everyone and everything... except Catholic Tradition, for modernists are as salt with no taste, to be “thrown out and trampled under foot

I believe many Americans fail to understand that despite influx of immigrants, globalization and secularization Byzantine rite or other Eastern rites are not as feasible option for many Western European people as Roman rite is. And this is true even without tinfoil theories about DNAs and essentialisms. It is really rather absurd to say anything contrary since Western and Central Europe has celebrated WR services for hundreds of years. It has probably never even occurred to most of the Western Europeans folks that Christianity isn't Western European religion. Cultures don't change overnight.

The hang-ups over this are really quite petty if one considers how Christianity- of any rite- has been introduced to cultures for which all forms of Christianity were equally alien. If someone is serious about the Gospel he will get over it. This agonizing over Western rite vs. Eastern rite is the height of self-absorption.

« Last Edit: March 20, 2013, 09:50:56 PM by Iconodule »

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Quote

Radiates, vegetables, monstrosities, star spawn— whatever they had been, they were men!

- Lovecraft, At the Mountains of Madness

If you would like a private forum for non-polemical topics, comment here.

I believe many Americans fail to understand that despite influx of immigrants, globalization and secularization Byzantine rite or other Eastern rites are not as feasible option for many Western European people as Roman rite is. And this is true even without tinfoil theories about DNAs and essentialisms. It is really rather absurd to say anything contrary since Western and Central Europe has celebrated WR services for hundreds of years. It has probably never even occurred to most of the Western Europeans folks that Christianity isn't Western European religion. Cultures don't change overnight.

The hang-ups over this are really quite petty if one considers how Christianity- of any rite- has been introduced to cultures for which all forms of Christianity were equally alien. If someone is serious about the Gospel he will get over it. This agonizing over Western rite vs. Eastern rite is the height of self-absorption.

as much as I might have to defer to your expertise in self-absorption, might I have to chalk it up to your exposure being limited to the US and the Orient? Perhaps being used to thismakes you thinkare identical twins, much like Europeans-East and West-and Middle Easterners look on Mongolians, Chinese, Japanese, Koreans, Burmese, Vietnamese etc. as "the same thing."

Have you ever seen Chinoiserie?It doesn't get better if you put a Cross on top of it.

Rather than comparing ignorances, one might notice that the Americans, Germans, English and French see this as alienas Russians, Greeks and Arabs see this

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Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.A hasty quarrel kindles fire,and urgent strife sheds blood.If you blow on a spark, it will glow;if you spit on it, it will be put out; and both come out of your mouth

I believe many Americans fail to understand that despite influx of immigrants, globalization and secularization Byzantine rite or other Eastern rites are not as feasible option for many Western European people as Roman rite is. And this is true even without tinfoil theories about DNAs and essentialisms. It is really rather absurd to say anything contrary since Western and Central Europe has celebrated WR services for hundreds of years. It has probably never even occurred to most of the Western Europeans folks that Christianity isn't Western European religion. Cultures don't change overnight.

The hang-ups over this are really quite petty if one considers how Christianity- of any rite- has been introduced to cultures for which all forms of Christianity were equally alien. If someone is serious about the Gospel he will get over it.

Yes, thousand years ago all forms of Christianity used to be equally foreign but I fail to see what that has to do with my point that Byzantine rite and Roman rite are not equally foreign today. Also, I agree that foreign rite of parish is not a proper reason for not converting but since WRO is Orthodox there's no need to make things unnecessary hard for Western converts. Being able to attend foreign liturgy is not one of the qualification of Orthodoxy. If they want to retain Western forms of Orthodox Tradition let them retain it.

« Last Edit: March 21, 2013, 04:35:35 AM by Alpo »

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But the stranger that dwelleth with you shall be unto you as one born among you, and thou shalt love him as thyself; for ye were strangers in the land of Egypt: I am the LORD your God.Leviticus 19:34

Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.A hasty quarrel kindles fire,and urgent strife sheds blood.If you blow on a spark, it will glow;if you spit on it, it will be put out; and both come out of your mouth

In terms of the exterior? I wouldn't say so. Greece and Cyprus are full of churches that are architecturally Western, but have been used as Orthodox churches for centuries. Isn't one of the pictures you posted the Hagia Sophia (now mosque) in Lefkosia? I'm sure the same is true in many places in the Arab world (one need only look at the Holy Land with all its Crusader churches). I think the Easterners are far more used to Western architecture than Westerners are to the Eastern. Then again, you have Westminster Cathedral, one of the largest churches in London, which is Byzantine in style.