Considering how much someone has to love a sport to register with and then regularly use an internet forum dedicated to that sport, it's interesting how much dislike some can then have for participants of that sport.

To be fair I think a lot of these are just reaction to a lot of the obviously Pro-Lewis threads that are made to crown him the best driver that ever lived

No they're not, Lewis-haters just have a complex where they seem to think the whole world loves him. Vettel, Kimi and Alonso have plenty of threads that crown them the "best driver ever", it's not like it's only Hamilton fans who are irrational.

Sorry but yes they are

From "who had the best dubet race" where Lewis fans who've not seen a pre 2007 race and have no intention in checking out if someone has done better in their first start just declare him to have been the best! Someone pointed out Jacques Villeneurve but somebody else made that void because he had raced and won in Indycar!

Lewis is fantastically fast and only people who hate him will argue with that but he's not the best in every category and every thread shouldn't be taken to him being championship over every other driver that's existed

To be fair I think a lot of these are just reaction to a lot of the obviously Pro-Lewis threads that are made to crown him the best driver that ever lived

No they're not, Lewis-haters just have a complex where they seem to think the whole world loves him. Vettel, Kimi and Alonso have plenty of threads that crown them the "best driver ever", it's not like it's only Hamilton fans who are irrational.

Sorry but yes they are

From "who had the best dubet race" where Lewis fans who've not seen a pre 2007 race and have no intention in checking out if someone has done better in their first start just declare him to have been the best! Someone pointed out Jacques Villeneurve but somebody else made that void because he had raced and won in Indycar!

Lewis is fantastically fast and only people who hate him will argue with that but he's not the best in every category and every thread shouldn't be taken to him being championship over every other driver that's existed

And, in that very thread, there's people arguing Vettel had the best debut. And Kimi. But we'll ignore them.

_________________"When the seagulls follow the trawler, it is because they think sardines will be thrown into the sea."

To be fair I think a lot of these are just reaction to a lot of the obviously Pro-Lewis threads that are made to crown him the best driver that ever lived

No they're not, Lewis-haters just have a complex where they seem to think the whole world loves him. Vettel, Kimi and Alonso have plenty of threads that crown them the "best driver ever", it's not like it's only Hamilton fans who are irrational.

Sorry but yes they are

From "who had the best dubet race" where Lewis fans who've not seen a pre 2007 race and have no intention in checking out if someone has done better in their first start just declare him to have been the best! Someone pointed out Jacques Villeneurve but somebody else made that void because he had raced and won in Indycar!

Lewis is fantastically fast and only people who hate him will argue with that but he's not the best in every category and every thread shouldn't be taken to him being championship over every other driver that's existed

Just gone through that thread to see if you were talking a load of rubbish and you are. The OP wasn't a Hamilton fan, the person who posted Hamilton to begin with wasn't a LH fan. I counted 1-2 Lewis fans in that thread who are known and even Vettel Fans said Hamilton.

Considering how much someone has to love a sport to register with and then regularly use an internet forum dedicated to that sport, it's interesting how much dislike some can then have for participants of that sport.

To be fair I think a lot of these are just reaction to a lot of the obviously Pro-Lewis threads that are made to crown him the best driver that ever lived

No they're not, Lewis-haters just have a complex where they seem to think the whole world loves him. Vettel, Kimi and Alonso have plenty of threads that crown them the "best driver ever", it's not like it's only Hamilton fans who are irrational.

Sorry but yes they are

From "who had the best dubet race" where Lewis fans who've not seen a pre 2007 race and have no intention in checking out if someone has done better in their first start just declare him to have been the best! Someone pointed out Jacques Villeneurve but somebody else made that void because he had raced and won in Indycar!

Lewis is fantastically fast and only people who hate him will argue with that but he's not the best in every category and every thread shouldn't be taken to him being championship over every other driver that's existed

As a neutral I don't think the insane Hamilton fanatics are any worse than insane fanatics of the other top drivers.

And I could easily be wrong but I don't believe the crash has affected his driving ability. He came out of the blocks running in 2010. But overall I think his last few seasons fit in line with my general opinion of his skills unfortunately.

The crash most certainly affected his confidence level to a certain degree. However, he seemed to work past it quite quickly and was looking quite impressive until the whole "Fernando is faster than you" incident, upon which time we saw Massa's demeanor really change. Prior to that day we saw Massa worked up quite a bit on several occasions but it was more the look of a fierce competitor in the heat of battle with his compatriots. That day however, he was visibly upset and it was vividly clear he was not happy and until he was approaching the midway point this season it stuck with him. Once he realized that with his future at Ferrari was uncertain, he realized he had nothing to lose and he got back to his previous top form and drove his little Brazilian but off! It seemed to me that he got back in the same mindset of 2007 - 2008 and really took the time to learn the car and figure out its characteristics and learned how to drive it better to the point he was beating Alonso, which we all know is no easy feat.

You might not think much of Massa, but when the Team Principals voted for the best driver of 2012 it was Alonso. Knowing this, Felipe matching and beating him to the point he had to concede position to Alonso to help his campaign, I think it's fair to say Felipe is much better than some people feel he is.

And I could easily be wrong but I don't believe the crash has affected his driving ability. He came out of the blocks running in 2010. But overall I think his last few seasons fit in line with my general opinion of his skills unfortunately.

The crash most certainly affected his confidence level to a certain degree. However, he seemed to work past it quite quickly and was looking quite impressive until the whole "Fernando is faster than you" incident, upon which time we saw Massa's demeanor really change. Prior to that day we saw Massa worked up quite a bit on several occasions but it was more the look of a fierce competitor in the heat of battle with his compatriots. That day however, he was visibly upset and it was vividly clear he was not happy and until he was approaching the midway point this season it stuck with him. Once he realized that with his future at Ferrari was uncertain, he realized he had nothing to lose and he got back to his previous top form and drove his little Brazilian but off! It seemed to me that he got back in the same mindset of 2007 - 2008 and really took the time to learn the car and figure out its characteristics and learned how to drive it better to the point he was beating Alonso, which we all know is no easy feat.

You might not think much of Massa, but when the Team Principals voted for the best driver of 2012 it was Alonso. Knowing this, Felipe matching and beating him to the point he had to concede position to Alonso to help his campaign, I think it's fair to say Felipe is much better than some people feel he is.

Ya he had a good end to the season. I'm open to change my opinion and if Felipe does some wondrous things in 2013 I will re-evaluate my opinion of him. I just don't see it happening though.

No the fact he has already been beaten so we know at least one man can beat him as team mate.

One person rules out the no one straight away.

Not really. The question is who WOULD beat Hamilton not who COULD. Under certain circumstances I would think most drivers on the grid COULD beat him. But under the majority of circumstances it could be argued that Hamilton Would beat anybody. Not what I think but its a point that could be argued.

No the fact he has already been beaten so we know at least one man can beat him as team mate.

One person rules out the no one straight away.

My point was you can't say no one would because he has been beaten therefore is beatable. If it can be done once it can be done again.

Not really. The question is who WOULD beat Hamilton not who COULD. Under certain circumstances I would think most drivers on the grid COULD beat him. But under the majority of circumstances it could be argued that Hamilton Would beat anybody. Not what I think but its a point that could be argued.

Alonso - I think that now, mentally, he knows what to expect from Hamilton. He won't break down mentally like he did in 2007. Because of that, I think he's more likely to beat Hamilton this time

Vettel - I think he has a chance. Vettel seems to really....annoy Hamilton. Hamilton sometimes, to me, seems almost obsessed with beating Vettel. Like at one race he radio'd back to the team saying something along the lines of "what is Vettel doing". I think Vettel winning his title in 2010, and seemingly about to run away with it in 2011 is a factor in what caused Hamilton's appalling 2011 season. He seemed to me to be almos unable to cope with the possibility of Vettel having more titles than him. I don't think it bothers him as much to see Alonso win, as he's raced him and he's almost proved to himself that he can take on Alonso and beat him. He doesn't have that assurance with Vettel. I think because of that, if they were paired up together, Hamilton is more likely to overdrive, in order to beat Vettel and consequently make mistakes.

Or alternatively, I could be suffering from F1 withdrawal systems and I've over-dramatized this Vettel-Hamilton Relationship.

Vettel, Alonso, Button - anybody who does not have them on there in a "could scenario" is clearly biased as Jenson already has in points and 109-109..

Kimi - more of a question mark over him, really not sure how fast he is these days. Would be nice to see a top driver in the other Renault. In a perfect world a fully fit Kubica.

With the reliability problems / collisions Lewis had last year, if another driver had Jensons reliability issues and stayed out of incidents then I think half the grid could have beaten Lewis in the points.

On a serious note I never rated Massa. My opinion has always been that he is mediocre and occasionally good (note: occasionally). There was the odd race where he made me sit up and take notice e.g. I was truly gobsmacked watching Hungary 2008. Best race of his life. He was damn near unbeatable in Turkey and Brazil also.

2007 he drove a good season to be fair. Kept in the fight until late on. And he took important points off the McLaren boys. I didn't think he had it in him. AND what is that worth? Not bad for a mediocre driver, I'd say. Helped his team to a WCC & WDC... just what he was supposed do.2008 he was mostly dreadful and I will always believe the FIA tried to fix the title in his favour. Baloney... fix the title in HIS favour? What on earth for? Just how many times did they "fix the title" so that he was within one last turn on the last lap of the last race of being the WDC. If he could lose the WDC by one point and he is "mediocre" what they hell does that make all the other drivers? surely beating a mediocre driver by one point doesn't make Hamilton great? And to not even finish second ahead of a mediocre driver doesn't say much for the other drivers either, does it?2009 I thought he had really got his act together. I was genuinely impressed. His best season (half season?) in F1 in my opinion.So, now he has is "act together"...and after missing the WDC the year before by one point, he NOW impresses you? My gawd man, what does it take to impress you?

But top 3 driver in that time? I never thought so.Alonso, Kubica, Hamilton, Raikkonen and then maybe Massa. Although Button was damn impressive in 2009, as was Vettel.Massa has some good stats from that period but the PF1 forum will tell you that stats never tell the full story.Not Top 3, but good enough for #2 at the end of the year, by but one point? Again, not bad for a "mediocre" driver in my book. How long have you been watching Massa race? Were you around in his pre-Ferrari years? He was a driver with promise then too. I was personally happy when Ferrari signed him to replace Rubens. He has not disappointed.

And I could easily be wrong but I don't believe the crash has affected his driving ability. He came out of the blocks running in 2010. But overall I think his last few seasons fit in line with my general opinion of his skills unfortunately.I am curious just what it takes to impress you. Does a driver have to have a WDC behind his name or risk being "mediocre?" Poor Sir Stirling. I do think that the accident took something out of Massa... confidence. Yes, he did show some flashes of speed post accident, but he also became quite inconsistent. Only in the last part of 2012 did we see the Massa of "old", and I for one am damn glad of it.

I guess I just have a thing for mediocre drivers... you know... Massa, Moss, Alonso....

Interested to see some people saying Button. From what I saw Hamilton overall had the better of him over the past 3 years. Over their time as team mates if you look at who finished ahead when both finished the race, Hamilton comes out well on top:

So overall I make that 25-13 in Hamilton's favour. And I highly doubt that adding the qualifying results into the equation would further Button's case.So I guess it depends which you think is more important: a points system where points are awarded to finishing positions in a largely arbitrary manner, or looking at who beats who more often. I feel it is the latter.

Picking and choosing scoring methods to support an opinion is one thing, but in Formula One there is just one measure of a driver, points scored.

Hamilton, although brilliantly quick, is not consistent or emotionally stable. He still lacks focus and the attitude to consistently deliver to the team. Although he can beat anyone on any given day, he does not bring his "A" game to each race. As proven over the last three years, he has delivered stellar drives and inspirational victories, but a consistent and more stable driver can deliver more points in the long run. Button has proven that, delivering more points two out of three years. There's no reason not to assume that any reasonably quick driver with the mental discipline required to handle pressure and consistently deliver points can best Hamilton.

Like Hulky, I have not seen enough evidence as of yet that they can compete at the top-level consistently. Not calling you out, just interested in your opinion.

I've been watching Perez for years. He is relentless, but less 'showy' because for the most part, he minds the rules of the road. He makes rookie mistakes, but he is superfast, intelligent, and has a brilliant feel for a car.

We already know Button can do it. Vettel and Raikkonen can also in my opinion.

None of these drivers are going to beat Hamilton all the time, I'm assuming the OP isn't suggesting that. Hamilton might win, or they might win.

Like Hulky, I have not seen enough evidence as of yet that they can compete at the top-level consistently. Not calling you out, just interested in your opinion.

I've been watching Perez for years. He is relentless, but less 'showy' because for the most part, he minds the rules of the road. He makes rookie mistakes, but he is superfast, intelligent, and has a brilliant feel for a car.

We already know Button can do it. Vettel and Raikkonen can also in my opinion.

None of these drivers are going to beat Hamilton all the time, I'm assuming the OP isn't suggesting that. Hamilton might win, or they might win.

Well Perez's main strength is looking after the Pirelli's, you cant really be showy and maintain your tyres.

Funny you always pop up but never take any action against trolls like Vettelmessi. Clearly obvious for the rest of us but not too you...funny MOD Purple.... I'm starting too think your an avid fan of his. Correct me if i'm wrong

Billy wrote:

F1Thomas wrote:

It finished 2-1 to Hamilton. 25-13 in Hamilton's favour.

Based on what?

It was equal treatment and Hamilton won as a rookie. (Alonso would throw his toys out the pram again if challenged like he was in 2007)

Based on what?

Based on what?

ashley313 wrote:

What happened there?

What happened there?

What happened there, Ashley, is that you have an Alonso-hater making, as always, absolutely no sense.As soon as I read the phrase "throw toys from the pram" I know I am wasting my time trying to make any sense whatsoever out of the post; useless to try to read any such post as if it had been written by a sentient being instead of, as is invariably the case, some inadequate, everything-challenged halfwit.

This this and this. As soon as i see her Avatar i go on ignore mode.

Last edited by a.rellum on Wed Jan 16, 2013 8:12 am, edited 1 time in total.

Interested to see some people saying Button. From what I saw Hamilton overall had the better of him over the past 3 years. Over their time as team mates if you look at who finished ahead when both finished the race, Hamilton comes out well on top:

So overall I make that 25-13 in Hamilton's favour. And I highly doubt that adding the qualifying results into the equation would further Button's case.So I guess it depends which you think is more important: a points system where points are awarded to finishing positions in a largely arbitrary manner, or looking at who beats who more often. I feel it is the latter.

Picking and choosing scoring methods to support an opinion is one thing, but in Formula One there is just one measure of a driver, points scored.

Hamilton, although brilliantly quick, is not consistent or emotionally stable. He still lacks focus and the attitude to consistently deliver to the team. Although he can beat anyone on any given day, he does not bring his "A" game to each race. As proven over the last three years, he has delivered stellar drives and inspirational victories, but a consistent and more stable driver can deliver more points in the long run. Button has proven that, delivering more points two out of three years. There's no reason not to assume that any reasonably quick driver with the mental discipline required to handle pressure and consistently deliver points can best Hamilton.

Ohh hell he tries the he's not emionally stable, he cracks under pressure comments. oh my god when when these guys stop trying too detract on Hamilton.

If anybody was on fire this year and was focused it would say Hamilton. Not mentaly stable he says

RE: Button vs Hamilton - Hamilton beat Button in 2010 and 2012 on points, Button beat Hamilton in 2011. And overall Button accrued more points over the 3 years.

That's it. That's all there is - why does this have to become such a slagging match every time? If there was some award given or trophies for most points over 3 seasons then Button would be quids in. But it's not. The fact that there was such a miniscule gap between them shows everything you need to know. Button had races where he retired from a strong position. Hamilton had races where he retired from a strong position. They're both world championship winning drivers with different racing styles.

I'd say it's like Senna and Prost just for the comparison of styles, but people would say "OMG Your comparign Hamilton to Senna LOLZ". So I won't

As some other people have said; any of the top drivers have the potential to beat Hamilton - in the same sense that any of the top drivers would have the potential to beat each other. That's why it's so close at the top at the moment.

RE: Button vs Hamilton - Hamilton beat Button in 2010 and 2012 on points, Button beat Hamilton in 2011. And overall Button accrued more points over the 3 years.

That's it. That's all there is - why does this have to become such a slagging match every time? If there was some award given or trophies for most points over 3 seasons then Button would be quids in. But it's not. The fact that there was such a miniscule gap between them shows everything you need to know. Button had races where he retired from a strong position. Hamilton had races where he retired from a strong position. They're both world championship winning drivers with different racing styles.

I'd say it's like Senna and Prost just for the comparison of styles, but people would say "OMG Your comparign Hamilton to Senna LOLZ". So I won't

As some other people have said; any of the top drivers have the potential to beat Hamilton - in the same sense that any of the top drivers would have the potential to beat each other. That's why it's so close at the top at the moment.

On a serious note I never rated Massa. My opinion has always been that he is mediocre and occasionally good (note: occasionally). There was the odd race where he made me sit up and take notice e.g. I was truly gobsmacked watching Hungary 2008. Best race of his life. He was damn near unbeatable in Turkey and Brazil also.

2007 he drove a good season to be fair. Kept in the fight until late on. And he took important points off the McLaren boys. I didn't think he had it in him. AND what is that worth? Not bad for a mediocre driver, I'd say. Helped his team to a WCC & WDC... just what he was supposed do.

I did say he was occasionally good! I started to change my opinion of Felipe in 2007. But 2008 put it back.

Blake wrote:

mcdo wrote:

2008 he was mostly dreadful and I will always believe the FIA tried to fix the title in his favour. Baloney... fix the title in HIS favour? What on earth for? Just how many times did they "fix the title" so that he was within one last turn on the last lap of the last race of being the WDC. If he could lose the WDC by one point and he is "mediocre" what they hell does that make all the other drivers? surely beating a mediocre driver by one point doesn't make Hamilton great? And to not even finish second ahead of a mediocre driver doesn't say much for the other drivers either, does it?

Massa was mostly rubbish in 2008. And Hamilton didn't cover himself in glory either. We had the Kimi show as well. It was like watching a bad comedy.

I am convinced (as are many others) that Massa had the benefit of the FIA on his side.What for? 2007 and a certain $100m fine.If Massa won the WDC I would have viewed it with an asterisk to denote that he got help.

Blake wrote:

mcdo wrote:

2009 I thought he had really got his act together. I was genuinely impressed. His best season (half season?) in F1 in my opinion.So, now he has is "act together"...and after missing the WDC the year before by one point, he NOW impresses you? My gawd man, what does it take to impress you?

WDC standings don't mean fairy cakes. What impresses me is not the guy who spun off in Malaysia, spun while leading in Monaco, probably dizzied himself from the number of 360s he did in Silverstone, put up absolutely no fight to Hamilton in Germany, had a howler in Fuji, was gifted a win in Spa and lost the title by a point.

Why the emphasis on where he came in the WDC standings? I don't see you telling us three-time champ Vettel is better than Alonso.

I think 2009 was Massa at his best. I also thought 2009 was Hamilton's best (until 2012). They didn't need to be WDC contenders to be impressive.

Blake wrote:

mcdo wrote:

But top 3 driver in that time? I never thought so.Alonso, Kubica, Hamilton, Raikkonen and then maybe Massa. Although Button was damn impressive in 2009, as was Vettel.Massa has some good stats from that period but the PF1 forum will tell you that stats never tell the full story.Not Top 3, but good enough for #2 at the end of the year, by but one point? Again, not bad for a "mediocre" driver in my book. How long have you been watching Massa race? Were you around in his pre-Ferrari years? He was a driver with promise then too. I was personally happy when Ferrari signed him to replace Rubens. He has not disappointed.

Yeah I remember when Sauber made him sit out 2003. He was quick but prone to a few disasters.

And he has to be one of the luckiest guys in F1 history to have a Ferrari career as long as he has. Supposedly the original 2007 plan was Schumacher & Rossi (Todt's plan). Massa was a stop gap for 2006. Luca put an end to Todt running the show and signed Raikkonen instead of Rossi. This in turn pushed Schumacher out, leaving a seat for Massa.

Kubica was to partner Alonso in 2012. We all know what happened and Massa is still there.

Blake wrote:

mcdo wrote:

And I could easily be wrong but I don't believe the crash has affected his driving ability. He came out of the blocks running in 2010. But overall I think his last few seasons fit in line with my general opinion of his skills unfortunately.I am curious just what it takes to impress you. Does a driver have to have a WDC behind his name or risk being "mediocre?" Poor Sir Stirling. I do think that the accident took something out of Massa... confidence. Yes, he did show some flashes of speed post accident, but he also became quite inconsistent. Only in the last part of 2012 did we see the Massa of "old", and I for one am damn glad of it.

I guess I just have a thing for mediocre drivers... you know... Massa, Moss, Alonso....

Nope, a driver never needs to win the WDC to be impressive. One of the most impressive drivers of the late 2000s was Robert Kubica. It's a crying shame that he's not driving the other red car.

Vettel's talent is undisputed (unless you're a plonker) but I'd still like to see how good he would be minus the Newey factor. Metronomical, quick and mostly cool headed but not as adaptable as others.

Alonso is probably the 'best' driver on the grid but not necessarily the absolute quickest.

KR always struck me as a track specialist. Phenomenal on some and ordinary on others.

Button himself (while having other great talents) would happily admit LH has more raw pace, so that's a no brainer.

Imho LH is the Ronnie O Sullivan of F1 right now. He has the most 'natural' talent but can be prone to letting his judgement/emotions get the better of him which can leave him vulnerable sometimes.

Whether or not any driver could beat him would depend on LH himself I reckon. At his best, then no, but the likes of Alonso and Vettel are so marginally behind him in outright pace that all they'd have to do is play to their strengths and LH's weaknesses to capitalise and anything could happen.

It's funny how every time I think of LH's weaknesses I realise how much I miss Kubica from the sport.

Funny you always pop up but never take any action against trolls like Vettelmessi. Clearly obvious for the rest of us but not too you...funny MOD Purple.... I'm starting too think your an avid fan of his. Correct me if i'm wrong

Since Mod Purple is not around at the moment, I will correct you - yes, you are very wrong in several accounts:

- You don't know which actions the mod team does or doesn't take. They are not necessarily public.- I'd say that Mod Purple has a very clear understanding of what constitutes trolling. I don't see what makes you say that you are in a better position than Mod Purple to make such judgement. - Mod Purple holds no driver alliegances when acting as a mod.

Finally, let me remind you that abusing a mod is against the rules, and that if you want to question a mod decision it is better to use the tools at your disposal in this forum: the mod feedback thread and the PM function, depending on whether you want to have a public discussion or a private one.

On a serious note I never rated Massa. My opinion has always been that he is mediocre and occasionally good (note: occasionally). There was the odd race where he made me sit up and take notice e.g. I was truly gobsmacked watching Hungary 2008. Best race of his life. He was damn near unbeatable in Turkey and Brazil also.

2007 he drove a good season to be fair. Kept in the fight until late on. And he took important points off the McLaren boys. I didn't think he had it in him. AND what is that worth? Not bad for a mediocre driver, I'd say. Helped his team to a WCC & WDC... just what he was supposed do.

I did say he was occasionally good! I started to change my opinion of Felipe in 2007. But 2008 put it back.

Blake wrote:

mcdo wrote:

2008 he was mostly dreadful and I will always believe the FIA tried to fix the title in his favour. Baloney... fix the title in HIS favour? What on earth for? Just how many times did they "fix the title" so that he was within one last turn on the last lap of the last race of being the WDC. If he could lose the WDC by one point and he is "mediocre" what they hell does that make all the other drivers? surely beating a mediocre driver by one point doesn't make Hamilton great? And to not even finish second ahead of a mediocre driver doesn't say much for the other drivers either, does it?

Massa was mostly rubbish in 2008. And Hamilton didn't cover himself in glory either. We had the Kimi show as well. It was like watching a bad comedy.

I am convinced (as are many others) that Massa had the benefit of the FIA on his side.What for? 2007 and a certain $100m fine.If Massa won the WDC I would have viewed it with an asterisk to denote that he got help.

Blake wrote:

mcdo wrote:

2009 I thought he had really got his act together. I was genuinely impressed. His best season (half season?) in F1 in my opinion.So, now he has is "act together"...and after missing the WDC the year before by one point, he NOW impresses you? My gawd man, what does it take to impress you?

WDC standings don't mean fairy cakes. What impresses me is not the guy who spun off in Malaysia, spun while leading in Monaco, probably dizzied himself from the number of 360s he did in Silverstone, put up absolutely no fight to Hamilton in Germany, had a howler in Fuji, was gifted a win in Spa and lost the title by a point.

Why the emphasis on where he came in the WDC standings? I don't see you telling us three-time champ Vettel is better than Alonso.

I think 2009 was Massa at his best. I also thought 2009 was Hamilton's best (until 2012). They didn't need to be WDC contenders to be impressive.

Blake wrote:

mcdo wrote:

But top 3 driver in that time? I never thought so.Alonso, Kubica, Hamilton, Raikkonen and then maybe Massa. Although Button was damn impressive in 2009, as was Vettel.Massa has some good stats from that period but the PF1 forum will tell you that stats never tell the full story.Not Top 3, but good enough for #2 at the end of the year, by but one point? Again, not bad for a "mediocre" driver in my book. How long have you been watching Massa race? Were you around in his pre-Ferrari years? He was a driver with promise then too. I was personally happy when Ferrari signed him to replace Rubens. He has not disappointed.

Yeah I remember when Sauber made him sit out 2003. He was quick but prone to a few disasters.

And he has to be one of the luckiest guys in F1 history to have a Ferrari career as long as he has. Supposedly the original 2007 plan was Schumacher & Rossi (Todt's plan). Massa was a stop gap for 2006. Luca put an end to Todt running the show and signed Raikkonen instead of Rossi. This in turn pushed Schumacher out, leaving a seat for Massa.

Kubica was to partner Alonso in 2012. We all know what happened and Massa is still there.

Blake wrote:

mcdo wrote:

And I could easily be wrong but I don't believe the crash has affected his driving ability. He came out of the blocks running in 2010. But overall I think his last few seasons fit in line with my general opinion of his skills unfortunately.I am curious just what it takes to impress you. Does a driver have to have a WDC behind his name or risk being "mediocre?" Poor Sir Stirling. I do think that the accident took something out of Massa... confidence. Yes, he did show some flashes of speed post accident, but he also became quite inconsistent. Only in the last part of 2012 did we see the Massa of "old", and I for one am damn glad of it.

I guess I just have a thing for mediocre drivers... you know... Massa, Moss, Alonso....

Nope, a driver never needs to win the WDC to be impressive. One of the most impressive drivers of the late 2000s was Robert Kubica. It's a crying shame that he's not driving the other red car.

I know its slightly OT, but I don't get the Kubica love. He was OK yeah, but I don't get why he was so highly regarded. Yes he thrashed the hell out of Petrov, who was in his rookie season and simply liked to put the car in the wall on regular occurances... but he was beaten by Heidfeld 3 times out of the 4 seasons they were together. Even discounting the 6 races he had in 2006 he was beaten 2 out of 3 years. Heidfeld had 150 points to Kubica's 137 points over their time together.

I'm not saying Kubica's bad by any means, he was really good in the Renault (though whether it was flattered because of Petrov's rubbishness I don't know), but I find it strange that he's thought of as the WDC that never was etc, when he actually lost more team mate battles than he won.

Back to topic at hand, I'm sure several driver's COULD beat Hamilton, i.e. Vettel Alonso Button or Kimi, but whether they WOULD depends on what happens through the year, and many other factors.

_________________"You are the universe expressing itself as a Human for a little while..."

I know its slightly OT, but I don't get the Kubica love. He was OK yeah, but I don't get why he was so highly regarded. Yes he thrashed the hell out of Petrov, who was in his rookie season and simply liked to put the car in the wall on regular occurances... but he was beaten by Heidfeld 3 times out of the 4 seasons they were together. Even discounting the 6 races he had in 2006 he was beaten 2 out of 3 years. Heidfeld had 150 points to Kubica's 137 points over their time together.

I'm not saying Kubica's bad by any means, he was really good in the Renault (though whether it was flattered because of Petrov's rubbishness I don't know), but I find it strange that he's thought of as the WDC that never was etc, when he actually lost more team mate battles than he won.

Back to topic at hand, I'm sure several driver's COULD beat Hamilton, i.e. Vettel Alonso Button or Kimi, but whether they WOULD depends on what happens through the year, and many other factors.

I don't know why people get so hung up on teammate battles. It's a circular debate that more or less can't be resolved. (Alonso was beaten by Hamilton who was beaten by Button who was beaten by Fisichella who was beaten by Alonso who was beaten by Trulli who was beaten by Kovalainen who was beaten by Hamilton and so on).

Look at the multitude of factors at play throughout the seasons. Patterns start to emerge as to who is the real deal and who is simply a journeyman.

Occasionally you may get a false reading i.e. Giancarlo Fisichella often displayed the characteristics of a driver that just needed his big break to succeed. He got his big break and couldn't live up to the task.

Just watching Kubica drive I felt like I was watching the real deal. And I have always felt that if Kubica and Heidfeld were teammates in a car good enough for a title, Kubica would have come out on top. And I feel it's a shame that we'll never find out if he really was as good as many believed he was.

Anyway I always thought quite highly of Heidfeld. Mr. Consistency. A reliable pair of hands to keep collecting the points. Got a dealt a raw deal by a number of teams (McLaren, Merc, Renault). I would have loved to have seen Heidfeld up against Rosberg in the Merc, a driver that hasn't set my world alight like he has many others.

I know its slightly OT, but I don't get the Kubica love. He was OK yeah, but I don't get why he was so highly regarded. Yes he thrashed the hell out of Petrov, who was in his rookie season and simply liked to put the car in the wall on regular occurances... but he was beaten by Heidfeld 3 times out of the 4 seasons they were together. Even discounting the 6 races he had in 2006 he was beaten 2 out of 3 years. Heidfeld had 150 points to Kubica's 137 points over their time together.

I'm not saying Kubica's bad by any means, he was really good in the Renault (though whether it was flattered because of Petrov's rubbishness I don't know), but I find it strange that he's thought of as the WDC that never was etc, when he actually lost more team mate battles than he won.

Back to topic at hand, I'm sure several driver's COULD beat Hamilton, i.e. Vettel Alonso Button or Kimi, but whether they WOULD depends on what happens through the year, and many other factors.

I don't know why people get so hung up on teammate battles. It's a circular debate that more or less can't be resolved. (Alonso was beaten by Hamilton who was beaten by Button who was beaten by Fisichella who was beaten by Alonso who was beaten by Trulli who was beaten by Kovalainen who was beaten by Hamilton and so on).

Look at the multitude of factors at play throughout the seasons. Patterns start to emerge as to who is the real deal and who is simply a journeyman.

Occasionally you may get a false reading i.e. Giancarlo Fisichella often displayed the characteristics of a driver that just needed his big break to succeed. He got his big break and couldn't live up to the task.

Just watching Kubica drive I felt like I was watching the real deal. And I have always felt that if Kubica and Heidfeld were teammates in a car good enough for a title, Kubica would have come out on top. And I feel it's a shame that we'll never find out if he really was as good as many believed he was.

Anyway I always thought quite highly of Heidfeld. Mr. Consistency. A reliable pair of hands to keep collecting the points. Got a dealt a raw deal by a number of teams (McLaren, Merc, Renault). I would have loved to have seen Heidfeld up against Rosberg in the Merc, a driver that hasn't set my world alight like he has many others.

Oh I agree, team mate battles are often completely pointless (See Hamilton vs. Button) but seems what most people are obsessed by here. I just don't understand the hype of Kubica and you can gaurantee somone would ask why I don't rate him, or bring up some stat first. THought I'd beat them to it I also rated Heidfeld highly and hoped he would have gotten the McLaren or Merc seat instead of Button/Schu in 2010. I only felt I was watching a good racer in Kubica in 2010, otherwise I wasn't too impressed. Perhaps he had really started to find his feet there, but meh. I prefer Mr. Consistent, but have no stats to back up why haha.

_________________"You are the universe expressing itself as a Human for a little while..."

In a single race with everyone perfoming at their best, honestly don't think anyone could beat him. When Hamilton gets it right he's amazing to watch and mightily fast, but it's not often that everything works out for him. He has to many things in his head that he allows to get to him on track.

Interested to see some people saying Button. From what I saw Hamilton overall had the better of him over the past 3 years. Over their time as team mates if you look at who finished ahead when both finished the race, Hamilton comes out well on top:

So overall I make that 25-13 in Hamilton's favour. And I highly doubt that adding the qualifying results into the equation would further Button's case.So I guess it depends which you think is more important: a points system where points are awarded to finishing positions in a largely arbitrary manner, or looking at who beats who more often. I feel it is the latter.

Picking and choosing scoring methods to support an opinion is one thing, but in Formula One there is just one measure of a driver, points scored.

Hamilton, although brilliantly quick, is not consistent or emotionally stable. He still lacks focus and the attitude to consistently deliver to the team. Although he can beat anyone on any given day, he does not bring his "A" game to each race. As proven over the last three years, he has delivered stellar drives and inspirational victories, but a consistent and more stable driver can deliver more points in the long run. Button has proven that, delivering more points two out of three years. There's no reason not to assume that any reasonably quick driver with the mental discipline required to handle pressure and consistently deliver points can best Hamilton.

But the issue with measuring performance using points is that the number of points scored depends massively on the points system used. For example, I remember reading that under the 2003-2009 points system, Alain Prost would have been a 7x WDC and Graham Hill 4x. Without doing anything differently, both drivers' careers suddenly become even more impressive.

If we're going by points alone then you also have to consider how many points each driver lost through reasons beyond their control. Yes Button has had his fair share of bad luck too but I would be willing to bet that Hamilton has lost way more. Do the points Hamilton lost in Spain, Abu Dhabi and Singapore last year make him less of a driver? If we judge solely on points then yes they do, which surely isn't right. The final championship standings can be misleading. Surely no one could seriously suggest that Button was only 'two points' worse than Hamilton last year in terms of his level of performance and consistency throughout the year?

As for the consistency point, admittedly this has been a shortcoming in the past, but I would also say that Hamilton showed plenty of consistency in 2012. More so than Button, Alonso or Vettel.

I'd also point out that Button did not deliver more points in two out of the three years. He only outscored Hamilton in 2011.

But the issue with measuring performance using points is that the number of points scored depends massively on the points system used. For example, I remember reading that under the 2003-2009 points system, Alain Prost would have been a 7x WDC and Graham Hill 4x. Without doing anything differently, both drivers' careers suddenly become even more impressive.

If we're going by points alone then you also have to consider how many points each driver lost through reasons beyond their control. Yes Button has had his fair share of bad luck too but I would be willing to bet that Hamilton has lost way more. Do the points Hamilton lost in Spain, Abu Dhabi and Singapore last year make him less of a driver? If we judge solely on points then yes they do, which surely isn't right. The final championship standings can be misleading. Surely no one could seriously suggest that Button was only 'two points' worse than Hamilton last year in terms of his level of performance and consistency throughout the year?

As for the consistency point, admittedly this has been a shortcoming in the past, but I would also say that Hamilton showed plenty of consistency in 2012. More so than Button, Alonso or Vettel.

I'd also point out that Button did not deliver more points in two out of the three years. He only outscored Hamilton in 2011.

Buttons consistency was down to the tyres.

so if Lewis can get points added because of the teams failings through reliability why can the same not be applied to JB because the team didn't get a handle on the tyres?

Picking and choosing scoring methods to support an opinion is one thing, but in Formula One there is just one measure of a driver, points scored.

Yep, and Hamilton scored more points than Button in 2 out of 3 seasons .

Blinky McSquinty wrote:

Hamilton, although brilliantly quick, is not consistent or emotionally stable. He still lacks focus and the attitude to consistently deliver to the team. Although he can beat anyone on any given day, he does not bring his "A" game to each race. As proven over the last three years, he has delivered stellar drives and inspirational victories, but a consistent and more stable driver can deliver more points in the long run. Button has proven that, delivering more points two out of three years. There's no reason not to assume that any reasonably quick driver with the mental discipline required to handle pressure and consistently deliver points can best Hamilton.

Thank you Mr. Psychoanalyst.

_________________"When the seagulls follow the trawler, it is because they think sardines will be thrown into the sea."