Author
Topic: Episode 337 (Read 114328 times)

So is "holy shit" a subtitle for this episode? I didn't expect Rickert to bend down to Griffith, but because of Erica I also didn't think he'd be that daring!He doesn't mind risking his life but he does care about her and her well-being. Maybe he didn't care about anything at that moment?Also, I liked that he slapped Griffith's face instead of punching him (like Guts would have done). I think it's more humiliating, and more appropriate for what Griffith did.

I hope we won't see Rickert impaled on Locus' spear in the next episode...

He tells him that the leader (of the Band of the Falcon) isn't the Falcon of Light. Depending on the other panels, "leader" could be meant in that sentence as a replacement for "you", as in "you aren't the Falcon of Light".

I personally think "you're not the Falcon of Light" sounds the best for that line. Direct, concise, cold and cool.

I suppose i'm late to the party here, but my immediate reaction was also "holy shit!"

I think its like Jaze1618 said, Griffith is like a work of art that should never be touched. and i think thats why everybody has a similar reaction. this is the first time you see Griffith harmed (and in such a disrespectful manner too) ever since he became Femto. everything Griffith/Femto did was so elegant and for a moment i thought he was literally untouchable in this manner.

He's lamenting the loss of his old leader, who got caught up in something bigger than humans. The old Griffith is truly gone.

That's why for me the impact of this scene doesn't reach the importance it deserves. Griffith at this point is stuck in terms of his character development. He's basically Dr. Manhattan or Charles Xavier. Writers tend to limit these sort of characters by taking away their powers or put them in the background as much as possible. It would work if he was in the shadows like the rest of the God Hand. Basically as a "deity", what does this petty dream of a kingdom mean anymore? He's got it all. But this is not Griffith anymore. So what practicality does this achieved dream has for him? For Femto? World dominion? A part of a bigger plot of the God Hand (who never seemed to have any ulterior motives of themselves)?

I agree that this is definitely a defining moment for Rickert, but not much else. I'd be extremely surprised if Griffith reacts any differently than what we all expect him to.

That's why for me the impact of this scene doesn't reach the importance it deserves. Griffith at this point is stuck in terms of his character development. He's basically Dr. Manhattan or Charles Xavier. Writers tend to limit these sort of characters by taking away their powers or put them in the background as much as possible. It would work if he was in the shadows like the rest of the God Hand.

Not sure I follow you. There's a kind of sadness in that Griffith is no longer human, just as there was for Dr. Manhattan.

Quote

Basically as a "deity", what does this petty dream of a kingdom mean anymore? He's got it all. But this is not Griffith anymore. So what practicality does this achieved dream has for him? For Femto? World dominion? A part of a bigger plot of the God Hand (who never seemed to have any ulterior motives of themselves)?

The kingdom has always been merely a symbol. In achieving his goal, he also changed the world, allowing for the next stage of whatever the God Hand have planned. The so-called age of darkness.

Quote

I agree that this is definitely a defining moment for Rickert, but not much else. I'd be extremely surprised if Griffith reacts any differently than what we all expect him to.

I don't even really care about Griffith's reaction. There's nothing left inside him for this to resonate with. This is more about Rickert realizing his old friend is truly gone, and this husk is now the leader of the new world.

Griffith at this point is stuck in terms of his character development. He's basically Dr. Manhattan or Charles Xavier. Writers tend to limit these sort of characters by taking away their powers or put them in the background as much as possible. It would work if he was in the shadows like the rest of the God Hand. Basically as a "deity", what does this petty dream of a kingdom mean anymore? He's got it all. But this is not Griffith anymore. So what practicality does this achieved dream has for him?

I don't even really care about Griffith's reaction. There's nothing left inside him for this to resonate with. This is more about Rickert realizing his old friend is truly gone, and this husk is now the leader of the new world.

I'm going to go ahead and... disagree with you there (and you guys should probably tell Miura you're basically discarding the main antagonist to his story =). I know you're getting this all from the big book of Berserk science in the God Hand incarnate chapter, but this certainty in defining the limits of Griffith's character is still rather presumptuous (and worst of all, boring as you allege, Nightcrawler). For one, from a literary standpoint Griffith is still playing the part of Griffith, so we don't need to get too existential with all the, "Griffith's not here, man" stuff. Secondly, if you wanna get all, "What a God Hand Demon King incarnated wants or is or isn't or can be" there's plenty of conflicting information on this particular one. From the get go the Hill of Swords encounter showed that it's not so cut and dry, thankfully. Griffith's not simply a automation, though he acts that way most times, even if he was just Femto in a Griff mask he wouldn't be that, but it's even more complicated. Between what's left of his ego and memories within Femto (remember, even Femto is an extension of Griffith), and Guts' and Casca's child/The Moonlight Boy, and whatever being incarnated into a physical vessel again changes besides that (if anything), he's quite complicated mess, and I don't think it's our place to oversimplify that or get dogmatic about a fluid situation (frustratingly static as it may seem). Anyway, don't take his not being the old human Griffith for him not being Griffith anymore. He's still the character Griffith, more or less (I'd say more actually), for all intents and purposes. To think otherwise is indeed sad, but I don't think it's accurate either.

The kingdom has always been merely a symbol. In achieving his goal, he also changed the world, allowing for the next stage of whatever the God Hand have planned. The so-called age of darkness.

What's interesting about that is that he had already changed the order of the world, at least by his Golden Rule thesis, but the Kingdom represented the ultimate achievable shake up, a commoner putting himself on the throne through sheer force of will. Now he's literally changing the nature of the universe, so... to elaborate on Nightcrawler's question, he's really overachieved, and whatever his original goal was, he's discovered why he even thought he was meant for such things in the first place, and that he's more than that.

That's why for me the impact of this scene doesn't reach the importance it deserves. Griffith at this point is stuck in terms of his character development. He's basically Dr. Manhattan or Charles Xavier.

You know, reading this sentence, what came to mind was that maybe you were the one stuck in the past. What I mean is that we've known about Griffith's state for a long time now, almost ever since the incarnation itself. We know that he's Femto, that he's not the old Griffith. In fact, seeing the preview had me thinking back to Guts' words to Rickert about him not being the Griffith he once knew. I think that's one of the main things Rickert will acknowledge in this episode.

But at the same time, I believe you're short-changing the character here. I don't think the comparison with Dr. Manhattan is really appropriate (and I don't agree with your view of Dr. Manhattan's character development either), but aside from that, the fact we've been almost completely kept out of Griffith's mind and true motives has made his every move all the more intriguing and exhilarating. You say his character development is stuck, but the way I view it, Miura's been purposely keeping us out of it. We've seen Griffith almost exclusively from an outside point of view, through the eyes of others. As he's seen by the blind (or not so blind) masses. And I don't view that as a waste of time, or as a misstep in his portrayal. It's helped establish the legendary, untouchable status he now holds. Which is why having Rickert slap him feels so tremendous to people (see the reactions in the thread).

One more thing: we've only seen a preview of the episode. I wouldn't be so quick to judge before seeing the full thing.

Basically as a "deity", what does this petty dream of a kingdom mean anymore? He's got it all. But this is not Griffith anymore. So what practicality does this achieved dream has for him? For Femto? World dominion? A part of a bigger plot of the God Hand (who never seemed to have any ulterior motives of themselves)?

Well, isn't it extremely interesting in and of itself to actually learn how Griffith feels about this? And what he wants? Because this isn't even the dream he used to have at all. People seem to forget that. Falconia isn't just a revamped version of Wyndham and Griffith isn't just a king. You're phrasing those questions as if it shows how Griffith's character isn't interesting anymore, but to me they're precisely what still makes him interesting.

I agree that this is definitely a defining moment for Rickert, but not much else. I'd be extremely surprised if Griffith reacts any differently than what we all expect him to.

I agree that this slap is a more important moment for Rickert as a character than it is for Griffith. However we have yet to see the full episode, and I again would be cautious about jumping to conclusions regarding the rest of it. Anyway, I don't remember anyone predicting that Rickert would try to slap him, or that Griffith would allow himself to be slapped (which I think is a big enough deal on its own). So, personally, what are you expecting Griffith to do?

I don't think it's fair to say he's just an extension of Griffith. I like how they put it during the Eclipse: a rebirth. Griffith was reborn as a different being, which is why his name changed. Someone familiar yet different. And after all this time, after all we've seen of him even after his incarnation (which all things considered is not very much, amounting mostly to public appearances), we still know very little about what he really is like.

I don't think it's fair to say he's just an extension of Griffith. I like how they put it during the Eclipse: a rebirth. Griffith was reborn as a different being, which is why his name changed. Someone familiar yet different. And after all this time, after all we've seen of him even after his incarnation (which all things considered is not very much, amounting mostly to public appearances), we still know very little about what he really is like.

Yeah, we really don't know yet, that's why it bugs me when we limit the possibilities, because that is what's interesting about him right now. And my point with the "extension" line was to emphasize that Femto in part came from him in the first place; the thread, however changed, still runs through. He's gone through a metamorphosis, but it's not like his body was simply used as a vessel for some unrelated pre-existing demon entity. Or, to put it another way, we should not be reading the story like that character died and this is some other character merely impersonating him now. To put it the best way, this isn't like Jason Voorhees in Friday the 13th V when it was really a copycat Jason killer, but more like VI on when it was the revived/undead extra evil Jason. This is extra evil Griffith, but not less Griffith. When you think of it that way, it's a lot more interesting.

Maybe i do have a different perspective because i read it in chunks and not episodically like most of you. I didn't have nice things to say about some parts of the Millennium Falcon Arc (and i guess i'll be always known by that around these parts), but my interest slowly grew back around the Falconia chapter. What i wrote in my previous post just after mentioning Manhattan and Xavier has more to do with the later. I used the example of Dr. Manhattan thinking to myself that i don't expect Miura to make Griffith go on soliloquies about his life and the ones around him (which seemed to me like one of the obvious ways to go with a "deity" type character).Anyway, I want to agree with Griffith's post which seems idealistic, but so far i'm not seeing the same, but i believe the greatest challenge in Berserk's story lies with the future development of Griffith. Miura is probably hiding his inner growth from us, but after all that the character has done, how is he going to interact with all around him that might make a case for his development as a character, and not just as feedback for the other characters?He, and the task achieved by him are just too grandiose, of such magnitude that it makes any transition to Guts party like going from google earth fully zoomed out to street view. He seems less and less of a dynamic antagonist and more of archetypical super villain, where only others with major super powers can have a glimpse of his vulnerability.Griffith's conflicting nature was only presented in the Hill of Swords scene and that was many volumes ago, Miura planted a seed there, but so far it only served to ground him a bit more in reality. That whole thing in retrospect seems to be so far away now, that i can't even grasp how much Miura has to thread to connect the dots again. Maybe the first step was done on this episode.

To put it the best way, this isn't like Jason Voorhees in Friday the 13th V when it was really a copycat Jason killer, but more like VI on when it was the revived/undead extra evil Jason. This is extra evil Griffith, but not less Griffith. When you think of it that way, it's a lot more interesting.

He, and the task achieved by him are just too grandiose, of such magnitude that it makes any transition to Guts party like going from google earth fully zoomed out to street view. He seems less and less of a dynamic antagonist and more of archetypical super villain, where only others with major super powers can have a glimpse of his vulnerability.Griffith's conflicting nature was only presented in the Hill of Swords scene and that was many volumes ago, Miura planted a seed there, but so far it only served to ground him a bit more in reality. That whole thing in retrospect seems to be so far away now, that i can't even grasp how much Miura has to thread to connect the dots again. Maybe the first step was done on this episode.

It doesn't matter how many volumes ago the Hill of Swords was though. Everything that was presented in the Hill of Swords is still relevant when understanding who Griffith is. I love the fact that Griffith is an amalgamation and I think because of that he is not invulnerable. Griffith is still really ambiguous, so I think it's way too hard to conclude too much about him still.

Also, I was trying to avoid any spoilers for this episode but couldn't help myself! I can't wait to read the full thing and see how awesome Rickert is.

Griffith's conflicting nature was only presented in the Hill of Swords scene and that was many volumes ago, Miura planted a seed there, but so far it only served to ground him a bit more in reality. That whole thing in retrospect seems to be so far away now, that i can't even grasp how much Miura has to thread to connect the dots again. Maybe the first step was done on this episode.

Frustratingly true, but as you say, that's exactly why this type of REAL LIVE HUMAN INTERACTION is so exciting.

Dude, that's like the perfect counter example! Yes, Miura has not fucking ruined Griffith by recasting him as some other guy who pretends to be the previous guy even after he reveals he's not that guy. UGH, that fucking show! There already sounds like there's dialogue parallels with Rickert and Jack though, "You're not John Locke/the falcon?" =)

I didn't have nice things to say about some parts of the Millennium Falcon Arc (and i guess i'll be always known by that around these parts), but my interest slowly grew back around the Falconia chapter.

I don't think many people remember that time to be honest. However I do believe that your lack of appreciation for the developments that occurred during the Millennium Falcon arc is detrimental to your overall enjoyment of the series, beyond those specific events. But that's not really the topic here.

I used the example of Dr. Manhattan thinking to myself that i don't expect Miura to make Griffith go on soliloquies about his life and the ones around him (which seemed to me like one of the obvious ways to go with a "deity" type character).

Well I'll agree that I don't see him ever doing that. On a side note, for all the religious imagery, rituals and everything, I wouldn't go so far as to call Griffith a "deity". He's playing the part for sure and he has power beyond any other being we've seen so far (with the exception of his kindred I guess), but I think it does matter that in the end he's only "just" a very powerful monster who's following a very carefully laid plan. Much like what Guts told Grunbeld about monsters pretending to be warriors, I think Rickert's line in the glimpse we got was meant to be a reality check: "no, Griffith, you're not what you're pretending to be".

i believe the greatest challenge in Berserk's story lies with the future development of Griffith. Miura is probably hiding his inner growth from us, but after all that the character has done, how is he going to interact with all around him that might make a case for his development as a character, and not just as feedback for the other characters?

Hmm, I don't know about that being the greatest challenge. My personal guess has been for a long time that we would be kept mostly in the dark about Griffith/Femto's current personality until the later part of the story. I believe this episode will be our first glimpse into this very thing since the Hill of Swords. However I also think we won't get too much of it until the eventual confrontation with Guts and the others. The way I see it, we'll mostly experience Falconia through other characters from now on, with Griffith remaining a distant figure. Of course, that doesn't account for the rest of the God Hand... Or for us learning of their plans... We'll see, but I think we'll only ever get small windows into Griffith's mind, and not very often.

He, and the task achieved by him are just too grandiose, of such magnitude that it makes any transition to Guts party like going from google earth fully zoomed out to street view. He seems less and less of a dynamic antagonist and more of archetypical super villain, where only others with major super powers can have a glimpse of his vulnerability.

Well he is the main antagonist but he's not the only one. In that regard, feeling distant seems appropriate, hidden behind his walls and his army of monsters. I mean I see what you're getting at, but I think you're maybe letting his portrayal during the Golden Age arc color your expectations here, for I don't find him too different now from how he was as Femto, or how he's been pictured since his incarnation. During the Golden Age arc, he wasn't an antagonist yet, rather that arc told the story of how that situation came to be. But outside of that, the paradigm has always been that he was very much out of Guts' reach. Besides, if he was directly involved with Guts, what would there be left for Zodd and the others to do?

Anyway, since the original establishment of that asymetric balance of power, the story's moved in two different ways: on one side we have Guts, on whom the story has always been mostly focused. We're seeing his journey towards finally confronting that unattainable adversary. We've seen him change a lot since then, and we know that a big turning point (if not the biggest) is right around the corner. On the other side we've seen how the enemy came to be the enemy, and then we've seen his unstoppable progress, rallying troops, crushing his own enemies, slowly but surely transforming the world and achieving his goals. We've also slowly, little by little, seen some of his power, some of what he could do. Some of what his plans were. And yet he remains in many ways a mystery, which I think is quite a feat after all these years.

So while we haven't peered too much inside Griffith the character, we've borne witness to the creation of Griffith the legend. The fake fairy-tale hero, uniter of the world and savior of all. We saw the death of the White Falcon and the birth of the Falcon of Light. Now we're waiting for the Falcon of Darkness.

Another thing: you're absolutely right when you say that Guts exists on a very small scale compared to Griffith. That's not arbitrary. Miura's always seen the story that way: Griffith soaring high in the sky and Guts crawling in the mud. Guts has always been fighting desperate battles against ridiculously stronger foes. Which is why it's only fitting that Griffith now be so remote and seemingly impossible to reach. Guts is the ultimate struggler, and vanquishing Griffith will be the ultimate struggle, both literally and figuratively.

Griffith's conflicting nature was only presented in the Hill of Swords scene and that was many volumes ago, Miura planted a seed there, but so far it only served to ground him a bit more in reality. That whole thing in retrospect seems to be so far away now, that i can't even grasp how much Miura has to thread to connect the dots again. Maybe the first step was done on this episode.

Personally I think what we were shown on the Hill of Swords was a little different. I've said so for years now, but I'm quite convinced that the Guts and Casca's son will be the key to Griffith's undoing, the flaw in his otherwise impregnable defense. And that particular seed was definitely planted then. But in any case, you're correct that this episode is likely going to be the most "personal" we get with Griffith since the Hill of Swords.

I wouldn't go so far as to call Griffith a "deity". He's playing the part for sure and he has power beyond any other being we've seen so far (with the exception of his kindred I guess), but I think it does matter that in the end he's only "just" a very powerful monster who's following a very carefully laid plan.

However I also think we won't get too much of it until the eventual confrontation with Guts and the others.

"Everyone has a plan 'til they get punched in the mouth." Yeah, we'll see what Griffith's really made if someone/something legitimately challenges him and the plan. Hopefully, Rickert's little challenge here will be an opportunity for that, though I'd really like to see him under duress.

Griffith leaves his little tea party to go talk to Rickert, so I'm not sure Charlotte, Sonia and Mule are around when the confrontation occurs. If they are though, I'll be curious to see what impact Rickert's actions and words might have on them, not just immediately but further down the line as well.

Anyway, Rickert reflects on what he's seen in Falconia, and how grand it all is compared to him. "What to say... Seeing the crowd of people with eyes looking like they're depending on something, seeing the city flourishing in a way I expected never to see again... About the feat which is like that of a god... or a demon, what can I, such a poor one, do..."

Griffith asks him if he had the same dream as everyone else (the collective dream of the Falcon of Light), and if he's found the answer to the question he had on the Hill of Swords through it. We all know Rickert's answer. Looking at the scene, Rickert seems fully ready to face the consequences as he does it, too. But Griffith stops Locus and the guards.

Rickert talks about how he's pathetic (himself). How he couldn't go rescue Griffith with the others on that day... It's his burden. He wasn't able to share their fate. He couldn't be furious like Guts nor take up that burden (revenge). He could only send them off. But he was the one who built their graveyard on the Hill of Swords!

Rickert asks him if he's noticed that the shape of the wings on the new emblem of the Band of the Falcon is a little bit different from that of the original one. Griffith replies "Ah, yeah..." Then Rickert tells him: "I am a member of the Band of the Falcon that Griffith the White Falcon led. But that leader is/was not the Falcon of Light." (Note that this last line can be interpreted in several different ways). His last word as he departs: "Farewell."

Wow, what an amazing episode. I wonder if there's going to be any consequences for Rickert for doing what he did... If Sonia sees Rickert maybe she will feel there's something different with his feelings towards Griffith compared to everyone else and wonder why.

Griffith leaves his little tea party to go talk to Rickert, so I'm not sure Charlotte, Sonia and Mule are around when the confrontation occurs. If they are though, I'll be curious to see what impact Rickert's actions and words might have on them, not just immediately but further down the line as well.

Anyway, Rickert reflects on what he's seen in Falconia, and how grand it all is compared to him. "What to say... Seeing the crowd of people with eyes looking like they're depending on something, seeing the city flourishing in a way I expected never to see again... About the feat which is like that of a god... or a demon, what can I, such a poor one, do..."

Griffith asks him if he had the same dream as everyone else (the collective dream of the Falcon of Light), and if he's found the answer to the question he had on the Hill of Swords through it. We all know Rickert's answer. Looking at the scene, Rickert seems fully ready to face the consequences as he does it, too. But Griffith stops Locus and the guards.

Rickert talks about how he's pathetic (himself). How he couldn't go rescue Griffith with the others on that day... It's his burden. He wasn't able to share their fate. He couldn't be furious like Guts nor take up that burden (revenge). He could only send them off. But he was the one who built their graveyard on the Hill of Swords!

Rickert asks him if he's noticed that the shape of the wings on the new emblem of the Band of the Falcon is a little bit different from that of the original one. Griffith replies "Ah, yeah..." Then Rickert tells him: "I am a member of the Band of the Falcon that Griffith the White Falcon led. But that leader is/was not the Falcon of Light." (Note that this last line can be interpreted in several different ways). His last word as he departs: "Farewell."

Judging from Griffith's expression during The Slap, caught somewhere between, "He hit me..." and "My beautiful face!," that was NOT part of the plan.

Bonus points for Rickert using blacksmith strength to rock Griff on his heels, and for simultaneously shoving it in Locus' face! Also, I don't think new Griff's looked more downtrodden than in the shot where Rickert turns his back on him, and I hope the coup de grāce is, "Ja ne." Anyway, Rickert basically just exposed him as a loser. Great stuff.