But it doesn't need to be that way. The fact of the matter is is that I remember many really social online experiences from the '90s and early '00s. And I'm not just saying that because my memories of those times are fond and I am passionate about them. See, start off with Ultima Online, before the quest grind really began. In that game, people helped each other. I remember that that was a game where, if you died and lost your stuff in a dungeon, you could ask someone better equipped to go and get them for you; and they would. You could have these lovely conversations with people when mining, too.

Then there was Furcadia, which was pretty much just a graphical MUD, the people there were lovely as well. Into the early '00s, we had Uru: Ages Beyond Myst, which was a game centred around exploration and puzzles. Another game where the people were wonderful, where you could just stop and chat about things. Often you'd meet up with someone in the city of D'ni then rush around poking stuff with them, those were fun times. And times like those have rarely been recaptured. I was hoping that GW2 would be a social MMO, but it's no more so than WoW. A lot of that is due to similarity in design, I guess.

But back in the '90s and early '00s, playing an MMO didn't make you a social leper. Especially not something like Uru: Ages Beyond Myst, which attracted a very casual and unusual audience (most of whom weren't gamers). I'm just wondering what those games did so right that games like WoW, Rift, GW2, and so on are doing wrong. Even TERA, as much as I like it, is a very solitary experience unless you bring friends along. And nothing really has that feel to it that those games did back then. I think there's no desire to market anything like that any more, and no one left to remember how great they were.

Still, I can't help but long for it. MMO player and antisocial jerk didn't used to be synonymous.

What is that supposed to mean? There are actually people who sit at the bar on their own because they want to?

I always figured that those people were lonely sad people that did it because they wanted to be in a bar but didn't have anyone there to talk to.

You figured wrong then.

I often go to the bar and have a nice cappuccino with a hot chocolate croissant, smoke a cig, play a bit with machines, read the newspaper and come home.
Sometimes I even stay there longer to read a book or something.
This doesn't make me some psycho criminal terrorist invader *insert more random Foxnews propaganda keywords*.

Sometimes people want to relax.
Relaxing doesn't involve someone bothering you with their bullshit, and it can be done in public too - parks, bars, arcades, libraries etc are all places where people can relax alone while other people is also there to relax or socialize with each other if they so want.

They keyword is "if they so want".
Sometimes I want to play GW2 with friends for hours, other times I just want to gank people in PvP alone.
Sometimes I play dungeons with friends, others I craft my stuff etc alone.

Because sometimes, socializing involves some kind of unrelaxing stuff such as following or giving orders, following/lead others to places, keeping the pace of others, etc.
And when one is not in the mood for being in a group he can tag along others while still following his own rules and needs.
This is one of the greatest things in GW2.

The problem is is that the game is caustic to people who want to socialise with anyone outside of their group of friends, Red. That's what's being discussed, here. Many of the map chats are like Barrens 2.0, and that's because people have this hermit crab mentality where they ball up and solo, and there's nothing to really encourage them to interact with other people at all. There aren't activities to group people together in the way that say... Ultima Online, Uru, or even Free REalms have. So everyone is just too busy grinding and trying to cheev the cheevos.

You can't honestly look at what UO was and say that it was a source of social phobia. The problem here though is that there is social phobia, people just don't enjoy having other people around, despite all of the changes. There's just nothing done to bring them out of the WoW mindset, and that is a mindset of social lepers. It's a mindset that ArenaNet quite wilfully seems to want to propagate. So unless you're going in with friends, or you're adamant about soloing, then you're going to be exposing yourself to a very toxic environment. And there's that whole 30-80 gap thing where you'll barely meet anyone.

To be honest, it's just things I hope future MMO developers take to heart. More like UO, less like WoW.

The problem is is that the game is caustic to people who want to socialise with anyone outside of their group of friends, Red. That's what's being discussed, here. Many of the map chats are like Barrens 2.0, and that's because people have this hermit crab mentality where they ball up and solo, and there's nothing to really encourage them to interact with other people at all. There aren't activities to group people together in the way that say... Ultima Online, Uru, or even Free REalms have. So everyone is just too busy grinding and trying to cheev the cheevos.

You can't honestly look at what UO was and say that it was a source of social phobia. The problem here though is that there is social phobia, people just don't enjoy having other people around, despite all of the changes. There's just nothing done to bring them out of the WoW mindset, and that is a mindset of social lepers. It's a mindset that ArenaNet quite wilfully seems to want to propagate. So unless you're going in with friends, or you're adamant about soloing, then you're going to be exposing yourself to a very toxic environment. And there's that whole 30-80 gap thing where you'll barely meet anyone.

To be honest, it's just things I hope future MMO developers take to heart. More like UO, less like WoW.

Red I agree with you but Dusk nailed it.

I really want to just solo some times but there is no incentive to really go out of your way to gather/group up.

I'm running swtor now. Many times I would just want to solo and run my class quests and stuff. But there is always someone in global LFG for heroics/class quests/World Boss/help required for certain objectives(datacrons, quest help/random jedi ganks).

I do see *es at times but at least they exist. GW2's only social hub seems to be WvW lol. And that people telling others to zone out to let others in or to hit certain objectives. That's fine, its the environment of WvW, which doesn't really exist( in a varied large sample ) in the rest of the zones.

The problem is is that the game is caustic to people who want to socialise with anyone outside of their group of friends, Red. That's what's being discussed, here. Many of the map chats are like Barrens 2.0, and that's because people have this hermit crab mentality where they ball up and solo, and there's nothing to really encourage them to interact with other people at all. There aren't activities to group people together in the way that say... Ultima Online, Uru, or even Free REalms have. So everyone is just too busy grinding and trying to cheev the cheevos.

You can't honestly look at what UO was and say that it was a source of social phobia. The problem here though is that there is social phobia, people just don't enjoy having other people around, despite all of the changes. There's just nothing done to bring them out of the WoW mindset, and that is a mindset of social lepers. It's a mindset that ArenaNet quite wilfully seems to want to propagate. So unless you're going in with friends, or you're adamant about soloing, then you're going to be exposing yourself to a very toxic environment. And there's that whole 30-80 gap thing where you'll barely meet anyone.

To be honest, it's just things I hope future MMO developers take to heart. More like UO, less like WoW.

Tell me which server you're on, so I can avoid it like the plague Not because of you, but because of the toxic environment you mention... I've seen nothing but helpful people on my own server, with map chat often being lively and cheerful, and people do seem to be willing to help others. Yeah the game tends to be more quiet and "introverted" than some of the other MMOs I've tried (I am myself an introvert and keep to myself though I will help people in need) but I've never encountered the nasty people you've chanced upon...

I am with you though on the mid-level "deserts" though. Those areas are indeed very quiet, and one will rarely encounter others there to play the group events with. I think this is very much due to two things: 1) The zone being unremarkable or relatively unrewarding and 2) The zone being too out of the way. I will often port to a newbie zone if I want to complete my daily as they're very accessible - not to mention they're the easiest and hence fastest way to do so. I think that most players think in this way, and that's why they're always packed (excluding the obvious alts and new players)

I hope that ANet will breathe some new life in the zones. They said they are going to be adding new events and making champions and group events more rewarding so hopefully things will improve sooner or later

Anyway I didn't mean to offend, i just meant that well I guess, usually when I see someone sitting alone at the bar I imagine that they would always prefer to have someone to chat with. Or watch that game with...

Or to watch people... Not everybody wants to chat, and not everybody who doesn't want to chat wants to be alone.

raspberry jam, on 25 January 2013 - 09:15 AM, said:

A cafe isn't a bar though, I love sitting around at cafes just looking at people.

What's the difference? (and this is a serious question, in Dutch those are two words for the same thing).

Heart Collector, on 28 January 2013 - 09:47 AM, said:

I hope that ANet will breathe some new life in the zones. They said they are going to be adding new events and making champions and group events more rewarding so hopefully things will improve sooner or later

This would help a lot yes. Now most mid-level areas are quiet, not because people don't want to chat, but simply because they're not there...

They also really need heavier moderation in the channels. Not the kind of "Our game is brilliant, say anything different and we'll ban you forever and delete your post history!" nonsense that seems to be popular, but rather the kind that keeps away misogyny, xenopathy (racism and homophobia), sociopathy, and so on. Because right now the map chats tend to be caustic, Barrens chat levels of caustic. Having age-restricted chats based upon credit data might also be a nice idea, just to see if that cleans things up at all.

But yeah, it's Barrens Chat 2.0 out there at the moment, so even when people are talking, they're often saying not particularly nice things.

Interesting, because I haven't seen that sort of caustic map chat on my server, even when the maps weren't so desolate...there's always the occasional terd, but they're few enough and easy enough to block...

Interesting, because I haven't seen that sort of caustic map chat on my server, even when the maps weren't so desolate...there's always the occasional terd, but they're few enough and easy enough to block...

Yeah, I never saw barrens quality chat in this game, even back when zones had population sufficient for people to even start chatting.

I was expecting someone to flame me, since my post is almost 3-4 months old, but that was a good read and I agree with pretty much all of it, except the Mass Effect 3 part, but I can relate if I use TF2. I've had more MMO experience ( chat-wise ) in TF2 or CS:GO than my whole playtime in GW2 and I did try a bit.

What's the difference? (and this is a serious question, in Dutch those are two words for the same thing).

Cafes specialize in coffee, bars specialize in alcoholic drinks. In many cultures (and don't ask me why, because this actually bugs me) it is frowned upon to approach random strangers in cafes, but welcomed to do so in bars.

Red_Falcon, on 27 January 2013 - 06:02 AM, said:

You figured wrong then.

I often go to the bar and have a nice cappuccino with a hot chocolate croissant, smoke a cig, play a bit with machines, read the newspaper and come home.
Sometimes I even stay there longer to read a book or something.
This doesn't make me some psycho criminal terrorist invader *insert more random Foxnews propaganda keywords*.

Dunno. Just yesterday i had some random people i played with, sme random people i did kill zhaitan and so on. IT may feel sometimes lonely but that is issue in most games. In WoW i barely ever see any soul not to mention actually talking.

I tend to read different genres depending on the mood I'm in, lately I'm into reading Fantasy (The Way of the King, Song of Ice and Fire) but december I was reading Philosophy, November I was into Medicine.
These are my main genres, along with politics (this to a lesser extent tho, I'm starting to lose all hope again and believe that a flawed system simply works better for flawed beings like us).

What you was about on September, Aeronautics? Sorry i'm messing with ya, poor thread
Back in topic, my last log just confirmed me JQ (the only little moment wasn't mute lol) is populated of quite a lot of personality disorder players. I'm serious.

I tend to read different genres depending on the mood I'm in, lately I'm into reading Fantasy (The Way of the King, Song of Ice and Fire) but december I was reading Philosophy, November I was into Medicine.
These are my main genres, along with politics (this to a lesser extent tho, I'm starting to lose all hope again and believe that a flawed system simply works better for flawed beings like us).

Democracy is the most flawed system imaginable, and that is the only thing that makes it work.

See it this way: elections isn't a way to find the best possible leader. Because no matter who gets elected, there is probably many who didn't even run for president/prime minister/whatever but who would be better leaders of the nation. Instead, it is a way to get rid of bad leaders.
A democratic society is really just a dictatorship with periodic, formalized revolutions every few years.

Democracy is the most flawed system imaginable, and that is the only thing that makes it work.

See it this way: elections isn't a way to find the best possible leader. Because no matter who gets elected, there is probably many who didn't even run for president/prime minister/whatever but who would be better leaders of the nation. Instead, it is a way to get rid of bad leaders.
A democratic society is really just a dictatorship with periodic, formalized revolutions every few years.

Democracy is the most flawed system imaginable, and that is the only thing that makes it work.

See it this way: elections isn't a way to find the best possible leader. Because no matter who gets elected, there is probably many who didn't even run for president/prime minister/whatever but who would be better leaders of the nation. Instead, it is a way to get rid of bad leaders.
A democratic society is really just a dictatorship with periodic, formalized revolutions every few years.

Yeah, representative democracy is nothing short of a "choose king A or king B every X years" deal.
Running elections costs millions so to get elected you need some corporations backing you up and you will basically work for them in return.

one thing that made me not play for nearly two days now and once again I logged out nearly instantly today.

The social aspect. In short, it's a joke in Guild Wars 2.

Every map I enter I always try to start a chat in map chat or with anyone close to me which usually has no response whatsoever as a result. So then I try to join a guild, been in 12 so far, nobody talks even though I try to get any conversation going (sadly most of these guilds advertise themselves as social guilds on this forum too).

I can deal with flawed mechanics which can be tuned but as far as I can tell, this is a flaw in the core of the entire design around Guild Wars 2. Since there is no difference between grouping and non-grouping, people avoid the social aspect entirely appareantly.

I never felt so lonely in a MMORPG. If this is the next generation of MMO's, I will be done with this genre.

Edit, I should note I have been on 4 servers now, all give me the same result.

Bingo, you are exactly right.

This is what a lot of MMOs have failed on, but none so hard as GW2.

GW2 failed because everything is ultra casual and convenient so that you do not need to talk to other players. Oh a DE is going on? no worries, dont ask to group its not needed, just go push buttons and leave when its done.

Everquest had it right, I never had so much social interaction in an MMO then back when Everquest was the go to MMO. Now we have fallen so far as to be GW2, where mechanics are built to avoid socializing. Fail, giant fail.

This new style of MMO needs to die, GW2 was the most extreme case of it to date, and its terrible. Bring back sandbox real MMOs, heres rooting for you Everquest Next.