Post by jinlian on Sept 11, 2008 3:25:47 GMT -5

Does anybody know when these photographs (from J. Olson's Red Cloud and the Sioux Problem) where taken and the names of the photographer? They're not included in Goodyear's book...I'd say early 1900s..

Post by grahamew on Sept 11, 2008 6:33:27 GMT -5

Post by jinlian on Sept 11, 2008 7:38:35 GMT -5

It's a possibility...it seems that there are still many unpublished/less known pictures of Red Cloud around. I think there're also some of them Goodyear himself wasn't able to locate. By the way, has anyone J.H. Cook's book Fifty Years on the Old Frontier? I rememeber having seen a google (or amazon) preview featuring a picture of Red Cloud together with his son Jack and his daughter-in-law. It would be nice to see it in a better resolution.

Post by jinlian on Sept 11, 2008 16:26:07 GMT -5

Hi Grahame,

I've checked Goodyear's book (I'm almost sure you did it too!) and there's no mention of these portraits, unless they're details from group pictures (which I doubt, especially when it comes to the Flying Hawk and the second of the "Olson" photographs).

I think there's in fact a strong possibility of discovering more Red Cloud shots - I wish someone will publish a new version of the autobiography too; there are many aspects of Red Cloud's life which need a deeper analysis. For instance, I was re-reading the chapter "The Pipe Dance" in which is clearly described a hunka ceremony - which was the person Red Cloud estabilished this bond with? Any idea?

Post by grahamew on Sept 12, 2008 3:13:01 GMT -5

Here's a Red Cloud (probable) from the lbha board. The complete photo is here (http://webdb.princeton.edu/dbtoolbox/query.asp?qname=wadisplay&ID=274), but the site doesn't seem to be working at the moment. Hans believed the man to the right is He Dog. No date, but I'm guessing it's around 1890:

Post by jinlian on Sept 12, 2008 4:09:28 GMT -5

Looks like him. About He Dog - I tend to agree too, after all He Dog's band was still close to Red Cloud's in the reservation years (if my memory is correct, their families escaped together from Two Strike's ghost dancers camp in January 1891) even if they resided in different districts; He Dog was based in White Clay District, right?

Post by jinlian on Sept 13, 2008 3:52:44 GMT -5

You're right, Grahame - in fact, now that you mention it, in the 1877 Oglala delegation photograph (the one with American Horse, Little Big Man, Yellow Bear and others) He Dog looks much shorter than American Horse who was - more or less - as tall as Red Cloud.

Post by jinlian on Sept 25, 2008 17:32:21 GMT -5

I have a little curiosity about Red Cloud: I first read about his having a twin brother in Tom Hatch's The Custer Companion, but I admit having dismissed the fact, also because Hatch giving this brother's name as "Roaring Cloud" (who, if I'm not mistaken, was one of Inkpaduta's twin sons). Now, looking at Mike Stevens' Oglala genealogy, I've found another reference to this brother, which Stevens apparently found in Red Cloud's autobiography. I'm probably too sleepy now but I wasn't able to track this reference and I strongly suspect that Stevens' source may have been in fact Hatch's book. Can anyone add further information?

Post by jay on Sept 26, 2008 9:46:53 GMT -5

Hi;I'm a new member and just noticed your reference to the Mike Hatch Ogalala genealogy.Can you give me more details? I'm researching an Ogalala named Black Bird (sometimes Blackbird) who was often among the Heyn photographed group and a member of Red Cloud's tribe as well as mentioned in the Crazy Horse Surrender Record.Thanks,Jay.