Proverbs speaks of the rod quite frequently. From a Biblical perspective one must spank their children.

Well, then one must also put them to death by stoning if they disobey you and remain stubborn (Deuteronomy 21:18-21). What's your recommendation regarding the kind of stones - round, oval, square, ...?

I suppose the difference is that the use of the rod is one of the Old Testament prescriptions which has been adopted in the Christian Church for 2000 years. So that is not in the same category as stoning for adultery. And the cessation of using the rod has not come from any new insight developed within the Church but from the external pressure of secular society.

Father, thank you, I think I understand the difference, but the point I was trying to make is, *MUST* one really use corporal punishment? I understood Antiderivative's remark as implying that if you are a Bible-believing Christian, then you just must spank your children, have an obligation to do it. I think that's just plain wrong. Maybe my ironic comparison with stoning was not a good way to make my point, I agree. I am just against this notion that "if you belive the Bible, you must do this and this with your children (or students)." My understanding is that as a parent, I can use or not use certain forms of discipline at my own discretion.

AMEN!!! And world stood still and there was silence as everyone noted, that the unexpected moment had come. Chris and Fr. Ambrose finally agreed on something...

awww. and I can't see the picture. Maybe it will show up on my computer at home.

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"For, by its immensity, the divine substance surpasses every form that our intellect reaches. Thus we are unable to apprehend it by knowing what it is. Yet we are able to have some knowledge of it by knowing what it is not." - St. Thomas Aquinas, Summa contra gentiles, I, 14.

Spanking is different from hitting. I've been spanked as a kid, but never was I hit with a belt.

Who can forget those nuns and the leather straps across the backside, or the wooden ruler or bamboo cane on the upturned palm? How the tears of pain would smart but you bit them back, and how sometimes you could not sit down when you returned to your desk because your backside was so sore.

In the parish school I attended, one nun tried to humiliate the boys by making us kiss her hand in front of the entire class. That stopped rather suddenly, when one of my classmates bit her finger...lol

Spanking is different from hitting. I've been spanked as a kid, but never was I hit with a belt.

Who can forget those nuns and the leather straps across the backside, or the wooden ruler or bamboo cane on the upturned palm? How the tears of pain would smart but you bit them back, and how sometimes you could not sit down when you returned to your desk because your backside was so sore.

In the parish school I attended, one nun tried to humiliate the boys by making us kiss her hand in front of the entire class. That stopped rather suddenly, when one of my classmates bit her finger...lol

Not really, I think she was too shocked to do anything. In fact, she was the one humiliated that day. Tho, I'm sure when he got home his parents must have given him lots of grief. In those days, if you got hit by the priest or a nun and you complained to your parents, you got hit again, because in their opinion, you had to have done something to deserve it. Priests and nuns were NEVER wrong.

Not really, I think she was too shocked to do anything. In fact, she was the one humiliated that day. Tho, I'm sure when he got home his parents must have given him lots of grief. In those days, if you got hit by the priest or a nun and you complained to your parents, you got hit again, because in their opinion, you had to have done something to deserve it. Priests and nuns were NEVER wrong.

Reminds me of stories my dad used to tell me about going to a school run by Augustinian monks.

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As a result of a thousand million years of evolution, the universe is becoming conscious of itself, able to understand something of its past history and its possible future.-- Sir Julian Sorell Huxley FRS

Our parish school covered grades 1 to 12. Some of the nuns were almost as old as God...lol In fact, I once came home screaming at my father. When he asked why I was being an idiot, I told him that one of the nuns I had, remembered teaching him. My father told me horror stories about how he was a real devil in school, and I was afraid she would take it out on me. Of course, he thought it was funny. Thank the Lord, she only remembered, or so she said, the good things. Of course I could do no wrong after telling the nuns we had (Bernadine Franciscans), that I wanted to be a Franciscan priest. Besides my father I had to live up to the reputation of my cousins, who were honor students.

Little blood once in while maybe Ok if really bad. Broke bones is outrage!

On a more serious note. Yes I'm for it, especially for little children who need instant checks on their behavior, not conversations. It can save their lives (don't cross the road without looking type stuff).

For older kids it depends on personality and the nature of the offence. Probably not the best idea as a first option. Some kids need a lick or two to get their attention. For others a hard word is crushing.

For older teens and maybe young adults, public caning for vandalism and similar level offenses is better than jail time.

And for what it is worth growing up I got corporal punishment (switches, belts, paddles), and on occasion bruises and once or twice some bloody places on my legs...as did my parents and educators before me.

Personally, I think you're all being too easy on these disobedient kids, I say take the tire iron to them. Plus, I know personally two people who were beat with tire irons by their fathers when young and they turned out alright, so obviously it should be regarded as an acceptable form of discipline.

First of all, may God bless your family, and grant you wisdom to rise your girls.

The gender of a child does not make a difference at all, differences show when they stop being children and become pre-teens and teens.

What makes a difference is the personality of a child, some are more sensitive than others.

I think it's important in very specific cases to spank the children, to correct specific behaviours, and prepare them for a safe entrance in social life, like for example, when they start going to school.

For example, if your girls are being disrespectful with you, and they don't listen to you when you ask them to stop, it's good for you to spank them, so they learn the lesson, otherwise they will learn it the hard way in school, when they are disrespectful to one of their classmates and they get pinched, hit, bitten, or something worst.

Spanking has a direct and temporal effect on children, they learn the lesson, and let it go.

Instead of thinking "I don't hit girls" think What's the best for my girls? "If a little spanking is needful to make her learn the lesson, I rather do this, than see her get into trouble".

Sometimes it's crucial to spank the child. The other night, I was in a family dinner, and my 2 years old nice was sitting next to me. As soon as the waiter placed the fondue on the table, the baby got excited and and tried to reach it, we told her it burns, but she insisted, and every time we stopped her, she started yelling, and hitting, and crying, she didn't listen to her papa. The last time the baby stood on her chair trying to reach the fondue, her papa spanked her, and the baby sat down immediately, cried a little bit, and after his papa conforted her, she behaved.

What's worst a burnt baby because you don't hit girls, or a safe baby who learned her lesson?

But it makes a point, the only difference between spanking and beating a kid with a tire iron is severity; both are attempts to use physical violence to influence behaviour, the wounds tend to heal in both cases, merely a matter of time. Spanking is battery and assault, just as attacking your kid with a tire iron and parents who spank their kids should be prosecuted accordingly and spend 5-10 years in prison for their actions.

In my household, we choose not to spank. Looking back over the lives of 4 children, I think it was a great decision. My kids are better people than I was. I was spanked often as a child, and honestly it doesn't bother me that much. At other times, I was severely abused, even to the point of losing consciousness, and I can tell you there is a huge difference between this and being spanked. Abuse has had a lasting negative effect, implants very damaging passions, being spanked is something I can make jokes about. For example, clearly GiC was not spanked enough.

If you've spanked for discipline, I don't think it's the end of the world. I still think you should find a more creative way to deal with your responsibility for your children and a better way to handle your frustration stemming from your lack of control. Take your time guiding your children. Trust me, there's no rush.

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"The Unity of the Church, as Your Holinesses well know it, is the will of God and ought to be an inspiring example to all men. It should always be a help and not a hindrance to the unity of men of different religions."-Emperor Haile Selassie To the Conference of Oriental Orthodox Churches 1965

I do agree with you to a certain extent, GiC. Spanking isn't effective and there are much better and less emotionally troublesome ways to discipline than to spank. I don't think, though, that spanking should be an offense worthy of prosecution unless it physically wounds the child. I think it's a quick, easy way for parents to take out their frustration on the child and doesn't really show the child what was wrong with their action, just shows that "I'm bigger than you and if you make me mad, you're going to get it." I'm already trying to undo this idea from my 18 month old daughter. She thinks when she's mad or frustrated that it's ok to slap at me to express herself. I admit I have smacked her hand a time or two and truthfully, it has not changed her behavior to what I expected: She just slaps at me when she's mad now. So yeah, it takes more time, patience, repetition, and consistency to tell her "no" and redirect her but it's far more effective in the long run.

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Human beings, who are almost unique in having the ability to learn from the experience of others, are also remarkable for their apparent disinclination to do so. -- Douglas Adams

My mother was beaten as a child and swore that if she ever had kids she would never lay a hand on them.

Having said that, she did have two switches, thin long tree branches, standing behind her bedroom door. Anytime my sister or I got out of hand, she would remind us of them. Just the fact that she had them was enough for us to settle down. In truth, her "disappointment" in us and our behaviour stung more than any switch could have.

On the other hand, my sister now is a mother, and when her little ones did something wrong, my mom would tap their hand gently. For example, if they reached for the stereo buttons, that they knew they weren't to touch, they got a gentle wack on the hand, same with the stove, the crystal vase, etc. The mere humiliation of getting their hand tapped (it was NOT a slap) brought them to tears, and the next time they reached for something, their eyes were on their grandmother, and she would repeat the tap, until finally they learned it wasn't worth it.

I think we all benefit from a bit of discipline. Even as adults. Doesn't the discipline of Lent make you feel like you've accomplished something by the time Pascha rolls around?

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Conquer evil men by your gentle kindness, and make zealous men wonder at your goodness. Put the lover of legality to shame by your compassion. With the afflicted be afflicted in mind. Love all men, but keep distant from all men.—St. Isaac of Syria

My parents spanked me as a child, actually until I was 16. And while I think that my parents did it too far into my teen years and that it was too often motivated by their anger, it did me alot of good in my younger years. It certainly helped keep me away from alot of the trouble that my peers got into. I think that spanking done for younger chilren (up until middle school) is appropriate if it is done in a controled way, rather than in a spirit of anger. Children at that age are not really capable of reasoning effectively and I just don't think they understand when parents try to reason things out with them. Heck, even my eighth grade students (who I think are too old for their parents to be spanking) can barely see past the end of their noses.

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"For, by its immensity, the divine substance surpasses every form that our intellect reaches. Thus we are unable to apprehend it by knowing what it is. Yet we are able to have some knowledge of it by knowing what it is not." - St. Thomas Aquinas, Summa contra gentiles, I, 14.

I believe that spanking a child after puberty ought to constitute child abuse. I don't look too favourably upon spanking before then, either.

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Heck, even my eighth grade students (who I think are too old for their parents to be spanking) can barely see past the end of their noses.

Very true, though I think reasoning with them is important. Though they likely will not understand adult reasoning, they will understand that adults have thought through what they're doing, and that can build trust.

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"It is remarkable that what we call the world...in what professes to be true...will allow in one man no blemishes, and in another no virtue."--Charles Dickens

Quis custodiet ipsos custodes? Who can watch the watchmen?"No one is paying attention to your post reports"Why do posters that claim to have me blocked keep sending me pms and responding to my posts? That makes no sense.

"For, by its immensity, the divine substance surpasses every form that our intellect reaches. Thus we are unable to apprehend it by knowing what it is. Yet we are able to have some knowledge of it by knowing what it is not." - St. Thomas Aquinas, Summa contra gentiles, I, 14.

Quis custodiet ipsos custodes? Who can watch the watchmen?"No one is paying attention to your post reports"Why do posters that claim to have me blocked keep sending me pms and responding to my posts? That makes no sense.

And sometimes its good that children are forced out of their comfort zone or are made to feel not perfectly content once in a while. Its how they grow.

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"For, by its immensity, the divine substance surpasses every form that our intellect reaches. Thus we are unable to apprehend it by knowing what it is. Yet we are able to have some knowledge of it by knowing what it is not." - St. Thomas Aquinas, Summa contra gentiles, I, 14.

And sometimes its good that children are forced out of their comfort zone or are made to feel not perfectly content once in a while. Its how they grow.

This statement is twisted beyond all belief.

Good luck raising kids.

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"For, by its immensity, the divine substance surpasses every form that our intellect reaches. Thus we are unable to apprehend it by knowing what it is. Yet we are able to have some knowledge of it by knowing what it is not." - St. Thomas Aquinas, Summa contra gentiles, I, 14.

And sometimes its good that children are forced out of their comfort zone or are made to feel not perfectly content once in a while. Its how they grow.

This statement is twisted beyond all belief.

Good luck raising kids.

You know, I was going to leave it at that, but your sarcasm has really ticked me off.

No, spanking is not a matter of disallowing children everything they wish. It's not a matter of either they get the pony in the backyard or they can be spanked. There's a middle ground that you seem to be missing here. And I'm sorry your parents abused you, but that does not give you the right to perpetuate this evil on the next generation. This isn't a matter of comfort; it's a matter of discipline. One has nothing to do with the other. Punishments exist to deter undesirable behaviour--and this behaviour cannot be defined as that which we do not like, but that which can hurt our children. Any punishment not done in love is detrimental to a child. Why would we persist in a punishment that intentionally harms our children, and more often than not fails to change behaviour?

So get off your high horse and quit your pontificating. One day you'll realize that this isn't a black and white world, and that some people have some different ideas from your own. It's actually better that way.

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"It is remarkable that what we call the world...in what professes to be true...will allow in one man no blemishes, and in another no virtue."--Charles Dickens

I raised three children (all are now married with children of their own) and I did not "spare the rod" (and spoil them). When a spanking was called for, a spanking was given. I did not over-use this discipline method and quite frankly, there were times that I was in tears as were my children. Two of my daughters refuse to spank their children (ironically, they call me and go on for a good thirty minutes on how naughty their children are and quite mystified as to why their negotiations are not working. I refuse to give them my two cents' worth.). My son, however, follows the example given by his dad and spanks his two when it's called for; not often.

An interesting observation is that I've noticed that many who have strong opinions on this matter have never actually raised children of their own.

No I am not missing any middle ground. I am not saying that they will demand ponies in the back yard if they don't get spanked but I do think they are morel likely to go down the wrong road as the begin to get older.

This isn't a matter of comfort; it's a matter of discipline. One has nothing to do with the other. Punishments exist to deter undesirable behaviour--and this behaviour cannot be defined as that which we do not like, but that which can hurt our children.

No, it should be defined as right and wrong. Is the child's behavior right, or wrong? Moral or immoral? Those are the questions we should be asking.

Any punishment not done in love is detrimental to a child. Why would we persist in a punishment that intentionally harms our children, and more often than not fails to change behaviour?

I agree that all punishment should be done in love. I know many loving Christian parents who spank their children and do not do so out of anger. They are in control of their emotions and do it as a deterrant. These are good parents. They love their children enough to discipline them even though they know that it will not be pleasurable experience for either the Child or themselves.

So get off your high horse and quit your pontificating. One day you'll realize that this isn't a black and white world, and that some people have some different ideas from your own. It's actually better that way.

I suggest you do the same. You go on and on pontificating about how "evil" spanking is. Perhaps you should realize that there are people out there who think differently than you do.

Just an observation: As I was growing up, all of my brothers and sisters, as well I, were spanked. I am not bragging or anything but we had really amazing behavior in comparison to our peers. We were never in trouble at school and had immaculate grades. We all had our moments but nothing like the behavior I observed in my peers who's parents did not believe in spanking.

« Last Edit: April 24, 2009, 12:23:48 PM by Papist »

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"For, by its immensity, the divine substance surpasses every form that our intellect reaches. Thus we are unable to apprehend it by knowing what it is. Yet we are able to have some knowledge of it by knowing what it is not." - St. Thomas Aquinas, Summa contra gentiles, I, 14.

I've unlocked the topic again. Instead of going down the path of whose parents were right or wrong and anecdotal evidence, let's discuss something more constructive.

For those who believe spanking is an acceptable form of discipline:1. Do you have other forms as well? What are they? 2. What about spanking in public places? 3. How much is too much?4. At what ages is spanking effective and when should it be started/stopped?5. For those with older children or whose children are adults, do you feel that spanking helped or harmed their development?6. How do you feel about other people spanking your child (school principle, grandma, etc)?

For those who believe spanking is not acceptable:1. What forms of discipline do you use? Do you feel any are more effective than others and why?2. What forms of discipline are more appropriate at certain ages or stages of development?3. If you have multiple children or have cared for multiple children, have some kids responded better to one form of discipline than another? Why do you think they did?4. What discipline style do you expect from others who care for your children (if applicable)?

Thank you all for your input and please, let's remain civil. I know this is a somewhat controversial topic and can be painful (forgive the pun) for some, but as a parent myself I would like to see some polite, well-reasoned discussion from both sides.

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Human beings, who are almost unique in having the ability to learn from the experience of others, are also remarkable for their apparent disinclination to do so. -- Douglas Adams

I've unlocked the topic again. Instead of going down the path of whose parents were right or wrong and anecdotal evidence, let's discuss something more constructive.

For those who believe spanking is an acceptable form of discipline:1. Do you have other forms as well? What are they? 2. What about spanking in public places? 3. How much is too much?4. At what ages is spanking effective and when should it be started/stopped?5. For those with older children or whose children are adults, do you feel that spanking helped or harmed their development?6. How do you feel about other people spanking your child (school principle, grandma, etc)?

Thank you all for your input and please, let's remain civil. I know this is a somewhat controversial topic and can be painful (forgive the pun) for some, but as a parent myself I would like to see some polite, well-reasoned discussion from both sides.

1. Of course. Spanking was a last resort for my wife and me. We used the "time out" in their rooms, deprivation of something they wanted, restoration of what had been broken/stolen/borrowed (LOL).2. We did not spank in public places BUT if a fuss what created in a public place we did not allow the fact that it was public to intimidate us into delaying correction. Our son/daughter was taken out of the store (for instance) and taken to the car where a discussion ensued. I don't believe I ever spanked our children in the car. By that time he/she had settled down enough to realize that it would be a very foolish thing to continue to demand his/her own way. And no... I did not delay spanking. To me that was unfair and could produce fear in my son or daughter towards me... while waiting for the spanking. Spankings were always given at home right after the problem occurred.3. That's a question that can only be answered by the parent and child. I was not about to hurt my child (after all... I love him/her with all my being). In fact, it was BECAUSE I loved him/her that I was spanking him. If memory serves, it seems to me I spanked him three times (perhaps four but no more) and with my hand not an object. I needed to feel some of the pain as well. And you can hear in their cry whether it is anger/outrage OR "I'm sorry, Dad" (at least I could). I immediately stopped and we talked... well... usually I talked. There was always a time of making certain he/she knew I loved them and that it had hurt me to spank him/her.4. Ages? For us it probably ranged between three and five (possibly six) years of age.5. I believe that spanking did help our children but in truth we didn't really spank very often. Most of the discipline was of a different nature (see above). My children are all married now with children of their own as I mentioned earlier. They're all employed with good jobs and involved in strong marriages. I'm proud of them and I hope the feeling is mutual. They at least know I loved them enough to do something that actually did hurt me.6. I would have wanted to know beforehand that my child was about to be spanked ... by whom and for what. And were it to happen more than once, I believe I would have set up an interview to discuss exactly why this was happening and what needed to be done on my end to prevent it's happening in the future.

I've unlocked the topic again. Instead of going down the path of whose parents were right or wrong and anecdotal evidence, let's discuss something more constructive.

For those who believe spanking is an acceptable form of discipline:1. Do you have other forms as well? What are they? 2. What about spanking in public places? 3. How much is too much?4. At what ages is spanking effective and when should it be started/stopped?5. For those with older children or whose children are adults, do you feel that spanking helped or harmed their development?6. How do you feel about other people spanking your child (school principle, grandma, etc)?

For those who believe spanking is not acceptable:1. What forms of discipline do you use? Do you feel any are more effective than others and why?2. What forms of discipline are more appropriate at certain ages or stages of development?3. If you have multiple children or have cared for multiple children, have some kids responded better to one form of discipline than another? Why do you think they did?4. What discipline style do you expect from others who care for your children (if applicable)?

Thank you all for your input and please, let's remain civil. I know this is a somewhat controversial topic and can be painful (forgive the pun) for some, but as a parent myself I would like to see some polite, well-reasoned discussion from both sides.

My wife and I may be very atypical or unusual, but we never had to use any forms of discipline when our daughter was growing up. She was a wonderful child, very easy to deal with, wery reasonable, good, kind, perfectly honest. She never had any behavioral or academic problems, studied very well at school. Parents of the kids she played with always told us that Maryana had a very positive influence on these kids.

She became somewhat nasty in her late teens , but that was already the time when our parental authority was too late to exercise. At ~20, she became her good normal and kind self again, just naturally.

First off, I'm going to mention that while I choose not to spank, I am not virulently anti-spanking (only mildly so). And I think us teachers can get extremely judgmental of parents (usually because we want the best results for our students), but we really should temper our judgments a bit, at least until we can put ourselves in others' shoes. I'll give you a couple of brief examples of this, and then jump into my discussion on spanking and developmental appropriateness of certain techniques.

Okay. I work with mostly childless teachers. When I was teaching at our lower school (I'm now at our upper school, and that is a whole other ball of wax) teachers would complain about e.g. 5-6 year olds not being able to tie their shoes. Now that I'm a parent, I understand how this training might take awhile. I've got to get to work on time - I don't have 15 minutes to spend with my son getting his shoes tied up (and since I only get 5 hours sleep per night, I'm not getting up any darned earlier). I've mellowed though - I know we'll get it taught eventually.

Television (actually, we get a lot of self-righteousness from the parents of only-children - specifically when the only child is a girl). Children should never watch television. Well, ideally I'd agree. But when you're in survival mode, sometimes a little t.v. is a lifesaver.

Numbers of children - we have a family at our school with "many" children (4). Both parents work a lot. They are not the most organized of people, to say the least. I often hear comments from teachers about how they shouldn't have had so many children if they couldn't do it properly. The problem with this is that I think teachers' expectations can be waaaaayyyy too high nowadays (everything in every element of every child's life must just be perfect - you should hear some of the nitpickyness!). I think these people need to be cut a little slack. Their kids will probably turn out just fine. It gets worse - I was at work one weekend recently catching up on things. So were a few other colleagues. Anyway, I have two kids. Another woman I work with has one. We were having a little rant session (but a quiet one) on each others' shoulders because we are tired and frustrated. Pretty typical working mom thing. So, a childless male colleague who overheard pipes up, "it's called family planning ladies!" and he wasn't joking around. Yes, that with a grand total of 3 kids between us, and us having waited until we were in our 30's to have kids.

Okay, so I make these points to emphasize that we need to cut parents some slack because frankly most are just trying to survive as best they can. Parenting is tough.

I do, however, want to make some points specific to spanking (keeping in mind that I make these comments understanding that parents still need to make some hard choices anyway, because life isn't simple nor easy at times).

There is a lot of talk regarding the fact that it is too hard to reason with with young children, therefore spanking is necessary to keep a child safe/keep them behaving themselves.

First off, young children have very poor impulse control, and the kind of careful, calm spanking some are promoting will not change that. It is simply not within their developmental ability. Therefore we should not be expecting young children to control their impulses completely (although yes, we should be gently training them toward that goal) and should therefore be carefully supervising children in potentially dangerous and difficult situations. E.g. a 2 year old should not have the opportunity to run out in traffic in the first place.

Many people believe that infants and toddlers need strict training in areas such as sleep, manners, etc. otherwise they will inevitably be terrors later, or will have major sleep issues the rest of their lives, etc. But what I have found (both through my own, albeit limited experience, and that of others) is that these are all phases, and if you understand and observe your child's development, you will usually know when the child has reached the appropriate developmental level to be expected to behave in appropriate ways. Sleep - yep, just as I'd read, by about 3 years old, my eldest went to sleep easily on his own, without any help (even without sleep training). It just happened. Then there is obnoxious and unreasonable behaviour, which I was worried would never end with my notoriously stubborn eldest (who, let me emphasize, has been, stubborn since birth - yes, really, since birth - long story I won't go into now). I found time outs didn't work well with him, so when he misbehaved I took toys away from him or removed privileges (and rewarded him by doing enjoyable activities, or bringing back toys that had been removed). These worked, but not immediately, and he'd still make a huge stinky screaming fuss. But guess what - developmentally he grew. He recently turned 4 and while he's still the world's most stubborn/determined child (and intense to boot - just light years different from my smiley little easygoing youngest), he's generally pretty darned easy to deal with. He gets it now. He's extremely well behaved under most circumstances. Yes, he will still have a meltdown here and there, but they are getting fewer and farther between. It's developmental, and with guidance, it will happen. I don't worry so much about it anymore because I keep seeing that these are phases that he gets past. Perhaps if you don't spank, it takes slightly longer (gee, maybe a few months), but parenting is about having some patience.

This is the key though - understanding where your child is developmentally. You kind of just know. If you ignore some of the so-called experts, you recognize where your child is developmentally. You've got to have some confidence in your instincts. Parents know their kids best after all.

Now, some will say that this kind of parenting leads to low expectations of their kids. I'm not saying we should leave kids to run amok and wreak havoc just because they are not developmentally ready to handle certain expectations. We need to have expectations of them, train them toward it, and remove them from situations or closely supervise situations that they are not developmentally ready to handle. But as I've said before, this takes patience. Spanking, I don't think, requires patience. Although I understand that not all parental situations allow for that much patience all the time.

I hope I wasn't too self-righteous. Hey, I've only got two kids. I understand that I can't possibly understand the position of say, someone with 5 kids.

I was spanked a great deal as a child. Usually for behaviours, which, in retrospect, where not in and of themselves, "bad", but actually good. Being a very senstive person, the spankings only traumatized me, and I do not believe they actually helped. Much better had the parents tried to understand where I was coming from and had been able to realize that they could actually have been thwarting inclinations which would have served well in the future-curiosity, creativity etc.