shafnutz05 wrote:If events like school shootings make the NRA the epitome of all evil, how do ungodly criminal cases like Kermit Gosnell not make Planned Parenthood targets of extreme scorn and hatred?

that's a tenuous link. i think every person i know who owns a gun owns it for recreational purposes (even if they don't want to admit it). that deserves a different amount of reverence than a situation like abortion. so while i admit that an organization like the NRA is unfairly chastised, and it's frustrating to see misplaced blame, it's not really a big deal since gun ownership isn't even close to a meaningful human rights issue. just my opinion, of course.

WASHINGTON (AP) — Built to dominate the enemy in combat, the Army's hulking Abrams tank is proving equally hard to beat in a budget battle.

Lawmakers from both parties have devoted nearly half a billion dollars in taxpayer money over the past two years to build improved versions of the 70-ton Abrams.

But senior Army officials have said repeatedly, "No thanks."

It's the inverse of the federal budget world these days, in which automatic spending cuts are leaving sought-after pet programs struggling or unpaid altogether. Republicans and Democrats for years have fought so bitterly that lawmaking in Washington ground to a near-halt.

Yet in the case of the Abrams tank, there's a bipartisan push to spend an extra $436 million on a weapon the experts explicitly say is not needed.

"If we had our choice, we would use that money in a different way," Gen. Ray Odierno, the Army's chief of staff, told The Associated Press this past week.

Why are the tank dollars still flowing? Politics.

Keeping the Abrams production line rolling protects businesses and good paying jobs in congressional districts where the tank's many suppliers are located.

If there's a home of the Abrams, it's politically important Ohio. The nation's only tank plant is in Lima. So it's no coincidence that the champions for more tanks are Rep. Jim Jordan and Sen. Rob Portman, two of Capitol's Hill most prominent deficit hawks, as well as Democratic Sen. Sherrod Brown. They said their support is rooted in protecting national security, not in pork-barrel politics.

The wages of fraud have been calculated, and the figure is a whopper: The government overpaid $3.3 billion in unemployment insurance benefits in 2011 because of bogus claims.

Most of that fraud -- $2.2 billion of it -- was linked to people who concealed that they continued to work, according to the Federal Reserve Bank of St. Louis.

About $500 million of fraudulently claimed money went to workers earning at least $900 per week, or $46,800 per year, the St. Louis Fed noted. Fraudulent claims for those earning less than $300 per week cost the program a far smaller amount, about $210 million.

shafnutz05 wrote:If events like school shootings make the NRA the epitome of all evil, how do ungodly criminal cases like Kermit Gosnell not make Planned Parenthood targets of extreme scorn and hatred?

that's a tenuous link. i think every person i know who owns a gun owns it for recreational purposes (even if they don't want to admit it). that deserves a different amount of reverence than a situation like abortion. so while i admit that an organization like the NRA is unfairly chastised, and it's frustrating to see misplaced blame, it's not really a big deal since gun ownership isn't even close to a meaningful human rights issue. just my opinion, of course.

Gun ownership, in and of itself, is benign. And there are millions of people who use their arms every day in this country towards no ill purpose, and causing no harm while so doing.

However, there is a large contingent of people who would be hard pressed to find a valid justification for abortion in all but the most strictly defined circumstances.... if at all.

Factorial wrote:Find them and make them pay all of it back plus a 50% fine.

Does anyone know what the current penalties are if caught?

I'm all for helping people who find themselevs out of work so I'm a big supporter of unemployment benefits, but I'd put severe penalties for something like that. Maybe even a short prison term if the stolen amount is large enough.

Factorial wrote:Find them and make them pay all of it back plus a 50% fine.

Does anyone know what the current penalties are if caught?

I'm all for helping people who find themselevs out of work so I'm a big supporter of unemployment benefits, but I'd put severe penalties for something like that. Maybe even a short prison term if the stolen amount is large enough.

How is that not the case already if you are caught defrauding the gov't ?

Factorial wrote:Find them and make them pay all of it back plus a 50% fine.

Does anyone know what the current penalties are if caught?

I'm all for helping people who find themselevs out of work so I'm a big supporter of unemployment benefits, but I'd put severe penalties for something like that. Maybe even a short prison term if the stolen amount is large enough.

How is that not the case already if you are caught defrauding the gov't ?

I'm trying to find specific penalties and I'm getting varied results. All say you need to repay the money, but one link says only a $1000 fine and suspension of benefits for 20-something weeks. Another link says one needs to pay an additional 30% of the stolen money, and another 50%. Only one mentions the possibility of jail. Sounds like these regulations vary by state. Maybe someone here knows more on it.

Factorial wrote:Find them and make them pay all of it back plus a 50% fine.

Does anyone know what the current penalties are if caught?

I’m not sure about the exact criminal penalties, but under the federal False Claims Act, if you present a claim for monetary payment to the federal government that you know is false or exaggerated, the government can pursue treble damages. So if you were paid $50,000 worth of fraudulent disability payments, the government can seek recovery of $150,000.

The wages of fraud have been calculated, and the figure is a whopper: The government overpaid $3.3 billion in unemployment insurance benefits in 2011 because of bogus claims.

Most of that fraud -- $2.2 billion of it -- was linked to people who concealed that they continued to work, according to the Federal Reserve Bank of St. Louis.

About $500 million of fraudulently claimed money went to workers earning at least $900 per week, or $46,800 per year, the St. Louis Fed noted. Fraudulent claims for those earning less than $300 per week cost the program a far smaller amount, about $210 million.

This makes me so angry. I am jumping through hoops to help with my medical bills and these **** cheat the system. The system is a **** joke and its the only thing that honestly infuriates me. **** those ****.

Factorial wrote:Find them and make them pay all of it back plus a 50% fine.

Does anyone know what the current penalties are if caught?

I’m not sure about the exact criminal penalties, but under the federal False Claims Act, if you present a claim for monetary payment to the federal government that you know is false or exaggerated, the government can pursue treble damages. So if you were paid $50,000 worth of fraudulent disability payments, the government can seek recovery of $150,000.

I would add a jail term to that, but it's crazy people are taking the risk.

But anyway, that's a whole lot of money stolen/wasted that could be used for something actually useful. It's a shocking amount, imo.

The wages of fraud have been calculated, and the figure is a whopper: The government overpaid $3.3 billion in unemployment insurance benefits in 2011 because of bogus claims.

Most of that fraud -- $2.2 billion of it -- was linked to people who concealed that they continued to work, according to the Federal Reserve Bank of St. Louis.

About $500 million of fraudulently claimed money went to workers earning at least $900 per week, or $46,800 per year, the St. Louis Fed noted. Fraudulent claims for those earning less than $300 per week cost the program a far smaller amount, about $210 million.

And that number only captures out-and-out fraud. It doen't even begin to address those who choose to turn down jobs and used the money to avoid returning to work. (which is totally legal if done correctly)

The system is horribly broken.

I know a specific example of a white collar worker who was given an early retirement package from US Steel some years ago. The company told him to apply for UI. The administrator who took his claim at the UI office told him that the penalty for collecting unearned UI benefits was that he's never be able to collect UI again. Then winked at him and said "you do realize what I'm saying right"?

Factorial wrote:Find them and make them pay all of it back plus a 50% fine.

Does anyone know what the current penalties are if caught?

I’m not sure about the exact criminal penalties, but under the federal False Claims Act, if you present a claim for monetary payment to the federal government that you know is false or exaggerated, the government can pursue treble damages. So if you were paid $50,000 worth of fraudulent disability payments, the government can seek recovery of $150,000.

Federal right?

Isn't UI technically a state by state program even if it is underwritten by the Federal Gov?

its so inspiring that the people who send us over there would rather keep throwing away money on stuff we dont need than consider the actual military's opinion on what the men and women actually fighting DO need. i understand you dont want to lose the jobs, how about making something else then? if they could make a chevy plant turn out god damn flying fortresses in 1943, why cant we have a tank plant building something needed at home in 2013? i'm sure the new tanks will be as useful as the other 25 thousand of them rusting in the arizona desert.

its so inspiring that the people who send us over there would rather keep throwing away money on stuff we dont need than consider the actual military's opinion on what the men and women actually fighting DO need. i understand you dont want to lose the jobs, how about making something else then? if they could make a chevy plant turn out god damn flying fortresses in 1943, why cant we have a tank plant building something needed at home in 2013? i'm sure the new tanks will be as useful as the other 25 thousand of them rusting in the arizona desert.

clips from article:

-Yet in the case of the Abrams tank, there's a bipartisan push to spend an extra $436 million on a weapon the experts explicitly say is not needed.-If there's a home of the Abrams, it's politically important Ohio. The nation's only tank plant is in Lima.-The facility is owned by the federal government but operated by the land systems division of General Dynamics, a major defense contractor that spent close to $11 million last year on lobbying.-But the facility is still crucial to the local economy. "All of those jobs and their spending activity in the community and the company's spending probably have about a $100 million impact annually," Berger said.

So we're spending $436 million to bring $100 million to their community? Money is being tossed around and I bet somebody is making cash, including the dudes who get the $11 million in lobby bribes. This is a good picture of American politics. btw, article also mentions only 700 jobs in that plant, so I don't know what the big deal is. Retrain them to do something else or, as you put it, make them build something entirely different.