So I understand this correctly; these creeks will not be stocked, but protected, so the wild's can do their thing and increase the population?

No. They would end up on the "streams with natural reproduction" list.

Only those which are class A would be as you suggested. If they are not class A, and 95% of these aren't, then they could be stocked.

That said, many of these are pretty small, and currently unstocked. While it doesn't prevent the PFBC from stocking them, it doesn't make it more likely either, and most of these will remain unstocked.

What it would do is increase protection of the streams. I don't know the details, but you have water quality designations like HQCWF (high quality cold water fishery), EV (exceptional value), etc. These designations increase environmental protections on these streams for things like industrial runoff. Being included on the list automatically bumps them up to a certain level, if they are not already there.

It is unlawful to place fish in waters that have been designated by the Commission as catch and release, wilderness trout or wild trout management waters except with the express written consent of the Executive Director or his designee. This section does not prohibit a person from returning fish unharmed to the waters from which they were caught or taken.

I wonder if Mike can explain what the underlined designation means. Is it all Class A streams and does this include some other wild waters, or finally, does it include everything on the reproduction list? I have never seen a list of stream designated as "wild trout management." Is this a secret list?

Posted on: 2012/12/3 9:39

_________________ "Only nature is good, only the natural is human,..."

Here, however, we are experiencing the consequences of the doctrine, lately preached from all the rooftops, that the state is the highest goal of mankind....

Mike can answer more knowledgably than myself, obviously. But my understanding is that class A is the threshold, above which the commission considers it to be a viable wild trout sport fishery and manages it as such, and below which they do not.

All the arguments we've had about stocking over wild fish, IMO, boil down to too high a threshold. I don't think ALL wild trout streams should be unstocked, some have tiny populations and aren't capable of more, they need stockers to be a fishery at all. But I do think we stock some that we shouldn't, that would be good wild fisheries left alone. Lower the threshold, problem solved.

It is unlawful to place fish in waters that have been designated by the Commission as catch and release, wilderness trout or wild trout management waters except with the express written consent of the Executive Director or his designee. This section does not prohibit a person from returning fish unharmed to the waters from which they were caught or taken.

I wonder if Mike can explain what the underlined designation means. Is it all Class A streams and does this include some other wild waters, or finally, does it include everything on the reproduction list? I have never seen a list of stream designated as "wild trout management." Is this a secret list?

I was looking at the list last week, I'm glad Mike posted it because the list isn't well know. I also tried to put in the Longitude and Latitude, but when I hit enter it took me to central Asia. Ithen put in the negative for the longitude and it put me at the mouth of the creek I was looking at.Kudos to PFBC for listing these streams, is the list out for comments yet, cause that's what I was looking for last week.I have a question about the list I have call Streams that are unsurveyed and may have brook trout. My question is who should I send comments to, I know of at least 20 that I've fished that do have brookies.

Posted on: 2012/12/3 10:26

_________________
The object of a resource is to use and reuse a resource, not to use it up, have we learned nothing in over 125 years of stocking?

Jack, If you read the Trout Management Plan it specifically says that it is the policy of PFBC to not stock wild trout streams, generally it isn't done on streams being added, because many are small, but in some cases, specifically Babb Creek, PFBC doesn't stock it, but it is allowed to be stocked by yahoos of 2 Co-op nurseries. And it has caused a severe decline in the population of wild trout. I believe at the point when I first fish Babb Creek it was Class A with no stocked fish. that is no longer the case.Also I know of a couple of places that we're stocked that are now stocked and the Class A populations have also declined, Specifically Willow Creek in Berks County and 1 other creek that I won't mention. The wild brookies in Willow Creek are simply gone, they disappeared within a year of stocking another section upstream of the Class A section. The second stream was stocked for a few years and probably ws impacted by a mining event of some sort so that's why I'm not naming it, but the wild fish are completely gone from sections that held them before the stocking. It's not a perfect system and for the most part it works, but wild streams are put at risk by a number of reasons when they are stocked. Most of it is increased exposure to harvest. In the case of Willow Creek I'm not sure, but the only fish left in it are sub-legal fish.

Chaz, I thought Babb experienced some kind of pollution event in the last dozen years. Anyhow, my point of citing the regulations was to point out that private stocking is permissible except in certain waters, some of which are mysterious waters under "wild trout management," whatever that means.

Posted on: 2012/12/3 10:53

_________________ "Only nature is good, only the natural is human,..."

Here, however, we are experiencing the consequences of the doctrine, lately preached from all the rooftops, that the state is the highest goal of mankind....

Jack, Wild Trout Management is defined in the Trout Management Plan. IMHO, if PFBC isn't stocking over wild trout, then why are co-ops allowed to do it. IT is encouraged by some WCO's, and that makes it ok?

Posted on: 2012/12/3 11:23

_________________
The object of a resource is to use and reuse a resource, not to use it up, have we learned nothing in over 125 years of stocking?

Chaz wrote:Jack, Wild Trout Management is defined in the Trout Management Plan. IMHO, if PFBC isn't stocking over wild trout, then why are co-ops allowed to do it. IT is encouraged by some WCO's, and that makes it ok?

The co-ops have to stock where PFBC tells them and it must be publicly accessible. But private interests, purchasing their own stock can plant Brook, Brown, Rainbow, Golden Rainbow, Tigers and Albinos anywhere not otherwise prohibited.

Posted on: 2012/12/3 12:06

_________________ "Only nature is good, only the natural is human,..."

Here, however, we are experiencing the consequences of the doctrine, lately preached from all the rooftops, that the state is the highest goal of mankind....

Jack, to my knowledge there haven't been any incidents on Babb Creek in a while. It's been treated since about '92, and was pretty successful too. But somewhere around '07 the wild trout just disappeared, and at bout the same time the stocked trout appeared. As for Co-ops they do put them anywhere they please.

Posted on: 2012/12/3 16:15

_________________
The object of a resource is to use and reuse a resource, not to use it up, have we learned nothing in over 125 years of stocking?

Quote all you want to quote Jack, co-ops can and do put fish in anywhere they please regardless of whether or not they are ATW or not. I've found brookies that were clearly stocked fish in some very weird places. You can't tell me it isn't happening. The co-ops that do it should lose their permits.

Posted on: 2012/12/3 17:23

_________________
The object of a resource is to use and reuse a resource, not to use it up, have we learned nothing in over 125 years of stocking?

Mike, I am disappointed you have not told us what "wild trout management" means in the regs. You are always praised for being helpful and authoritative, but then you disappear when this kind of direct question is asked. Please help me out here.

Posted on: 2012/12/4 16:05

_________________ "Only nature is good, only the natural is human,..."

Here, however, we are experiencing the consequences of the doctrine, lately preached from all the rooftops, that the state is the highest goal of mankind....