European Internet users could be blocked from lawful activities by mandatory spyware, in the interests of their security. The right to use free software for internet access would therefore not be assured anymore. The neutrality of the Internet is also directly attacked, as is the principle that technical intermediaries have no obligation to prior surveillance of contents. Other amendments will de facto enable administrative authorities to obligate ISPs to work with content producers and rights-holders' private police, including the sending of intimidating messages, with no judicial or regulatory oversight.

So what do you think of that? This is what people in europe are letting happen. Little by little, history repeats itself. This site is all about technology and its use in a way which supports or restricts freedom. The scary thing is that the more powerful a technology the more powerful its potential negative uses are as well. As much as internet gives us the power to express ourselves, to speak freely, locking it down and controlling it becomes all the more powerful tool for tracking the politically incorrect ones down, the "dissidents" so to speak.. those who will dare to speak even once they manage to implement internet surveillance, allow sending threatening messages and the natural next step: arresting people.

Because internet connects us all and has so much of our data that it only takes a few more steps for us all to be open books to be exploited by our governments.

I am convinced that, unless people act, in some way, to stop them, to withdraw their support for them, Europe will be a single quite orwellian superstate controlled by the central government, too soon. History is repeating itself and if people don't realize that then they're still enjoying too much of that drug called "blissful ignorance".

There's your european union, leading you to economic freedom slavery. So what now?

Yes, isn't it a brave new world we're living in. And isn't it interesting how in the "highly developed western world" methods from the 15th century suddenly become modern again. Yes, I am talking about the inquisition. And since we're at it already, why don't we also go hunt some witches?

As always I have only one thing to actually say about this kind of news, just this time with a little addition.

me wrote:

Fuck the system! Before the system fucks you!

If any government-bodies feel offended by my statement feel free to use Google to find out more about me. Should be easy enough.
Requests to STFU will be laughed and spit at.

And sorry for the bad language, but this kind of stuff gets to me on a level that's reserved for really major bullshit. Interestingly mostly governments manage to reach that mark.

No need to apologize for bad language in this instance. I feel the same way. I know everyone has their thresholds and their ways of fighting for their freedom and I know not everyone agrees with me in total rejection of the idea of government, but one way or another we do indeed have to get angry, get motivated to do whatever we feel is right and necessary to frak up their plans and preserve our freedoms.

For me it's no longer a battle that can be fought solely within the legal system, but I can understand if someone may want to use the legal system too, at the very least buy us some time (even though I do not recognize that system's legitimacy anymore). Meanwhile, my job is to continue getting people mad about the encroachment to their freedoms, and therefore motivate them to get active and for once in history rise up and show that this time we are not just going to follow like sheep as they lead us into a yet another dark cycle of history.

On July 7th, the parliament has voted in favor of these amendments and there the next chance of voting it out is October, after the beaurocrats have their holidays...

There are apparently efforts by some to present these amendments as bening, and while I wont claim to be an expert who can with full judgment know what exactly are these amendments saying I tend to trust organizations like FFII more than the european beaurocrats. The ongoing outrage isn't for nothing. The thing is, as far as I'm concerned they have no place regulating anything, let alone the internet!

I suppose one way that many should take to combat this, if they believe in legal means, is to send letters to representatives and organize some protests, online and offline, make a buzz out of it, show that masses are outraged and put the pressure on the parliament to finally vote the amendments out.

But if you want my honest opinion, that will merely put off the inevitable. I think the deeper issue people need to realize is that European Union isn't about freedom, democracy, more economic liberties or whatever is being promised. If one just opens their eyes to see what's going on, first this vote in Island where only few million got to vote on what is essentially a constitution that should cover the entire EU and now a "telecom package", a deal containing terms which can be abused to bring about internet censorship and control. Come on! If anyone thinks by now EU is about freedom is delusional. It doesn't even do the democracy right, let alone leave people to be truly free!

EU must fall apart! That is the ultimate goal here. EU must stop expanding and start shrinking. Secede from it until it's too late.

I'm expecting another chance to vote No to Lisbon later this year or early next year, but even another rejection at best leaves us with the status quo. What's needed is political campaigns in each EU member nation promoting an alternative EU based on voluntary co-operation, that's step 1. It really is down to the people of each country to fight to regain control of their own nations, politicians aren't going to do anything of the sort without significant popular pressure.

I take heart from the fact that despite all main political parties in Ireland campaigning for a Yes to Lisbon, relatively small groups of campaigners got their message out and tapped into the latent public unease with the direction of the EU. In many member states, polls indicate the majority believe the EU is on the wrong track. However, unlike Ireland which has a constitutional guard against arbitrary surrender of sovereignty, other member states will only change position if the people take to the streets in numbers - not so easy a task.

What's needed is political campaigns in each EU member nation promoting an alternative EU based on voluntary co-operation, that's step 1. It really is down to the people of each country to fight to regain control of their own nations, politicians aren't going to do anything of the sort without significant popular pressure.

And I really think that at this point the cause of regaining control over our own nations and the cause of still somehow keep the EU project alive are in conflict, in my opinion. It is hard enough to do the former, let alone do both the former and the latter at the same time. Think about it. We're essentially finding ourselves in a situation in which we need to desperately pull the plug on the whole deal before it's too late. How can we even dream of letting the EU project go on without a clean slate. The EU institutions are already populated by individuals who will apparently do anything they can to follow their agenda through and simply ignore the people no matter how much they are shouting. I mean, they are saying NO on referendums yet MEP's themselves have to hold protests within the parliament itself to get these referendums actually respected. How can it get any more ridiculous and extreme than that seriously? We can almost smell a dismissal of the parliament when such things start to happen.

No, I don't think saving the EU project is worth it. Even if by some miracle it is possible to get people's voices obeyed and a constitution accepted by traditional democratic means of majority vote (which would still leave millions upon millions of "minority" unsatisfied), you would just end up with two governments ruling upon all these lands - two beasts to keep an eye on. Consider the fact that USA had a very limited government in the beginning, a nearly unregulated market etc. and look at it today. Their precious system of checks and balances is failing so miserably that it is maddening (and indeed, people are now showing their outrage). Taught by this example, how can we as reasonable clear thinking people possibly expect that forming and preserving this pan-european government wont lead to the same thing, ESPECIALLY considering that we can't even get the constitution done properly without people's rights being totally ripped over. I mean, this is totally alarmist.

The only reasonable way is to pull the plug. No more EU. We thought it may have been a good idea, but we learned better. Pull the plug until it's too late. Whatever outrage there should be, whatever movement should form, it should be abolitionist. EU is NOT a good idea, by no means.

I just don't see any other option here.

a_thing wrote:

GLHF enforcing that well. I think it will be about as effective as the "war on drugs".

Maybe you're right, but internet is a rather peculiar thing and we have different technologies today. All it really takes is to get a few crucial ISP's (and it's not like we've got so much competition in this field here, just like in US) to obey and implement spying technologies capable of recording which sites you visit and then search through this information automatically matching it up with a database of sites which are on some sort of a blacklist (piracy sites and eventually sites of what I'm sure they'll label "terrorist promoting" sites etc.). And if you visit such sites, especially if you do so regularly, they've got your info (as you are their customer after all) and they just report it back to some government agency who then sends a nice threatening letter or even a freaking court order or who the hell knows.

It can be all done mostly automatically. Then again.. yeah, I guess we can then start massively using things like tor and some other perhaps more efficient anonymizers, proxies and whatnot.. But I gotta say it pisses me off that we have to resort to these methods, basically running away from our own governments even while doing completely innocent things. It's just outrageous.

But then again, that's the reality of our time and if we must sure, we should use technology to our advantage. Damn them and their laws. We're the technologists. We pay attention and we will fight back. As was said on another forum, today internet and technology moves too fast for slow and innefficient governments to catch up. I guess we can bet on that.. It may be our only possible bet anyway.

Meanwhile, I'm seriously, out of outrage about what's going on and the fact there's so little real libertarians in Europe, considering finding a way to just move the hell out of here to USA. It may be a police state in the making, but it is still, as I am recently realizing in SOME aspects and in SOME states (like New Hampshire), actually freer than even in Croatia. But the biggest reason is that it has the biggest liberty movement in the world. Ron Paul really stirred things up there and there is also a Free State Project which is growing and showing potential. Something is going to be happening there and maybe that's where I should be. If we can re-establish even a single US state as a renewed free country, or even a voluntaryist society, the news of it may again influence the whole world as a beacon of liberty, possibly mobilizing people in Europe too.

But on the other hand, some may find that to be a sort of like running away from a problem here in europe. But seriously people, as a voluntaryist I'm not exactly carrying a very popular belief here on this continent and I am seriously sometimes feeling concerned. I feel like an isolated island who is in the wrong place, because true liberty movement in Europe just doesn't exist. And that's just sad.

Europe is one statist, big government infected hell hole.. and they want to make it even worse.

Change = Oppertunity.
There are big changes happening in developed nations, the credit crunch, property crashes, oil > $150/barrel, rising prices for necessities, globalisation displacing jobs. All of these things will increasingly make life harder for the majority of people, and blame will attach to politicians presiding over it.

Popular discontent has throughout history provided ideal conditions for the emergence of new groups who tap the mood and promise a new way. As usual fascists will try to frame all problems in terms of foreigners v locals, socialists in terms of rich v the rest, divide and conquor by pushing any emotional button that gets a reaction, making the ego a puppet of the id. The risk is that in the end one oligarchy is simply replaced by another, and it may be much worse after all the effort.

The challenge is to come up with a set of proposals that address enough problems for enough people to gain sufficient support. The discontent and hunger for change is borne of bread and butter issues, people don't see civil liberties as a very high priority so long as there's no jack-boot on their neck. If the connection between freedom and personal conditions is made clear, there's still the problem that the masses have been bred to expect the government to do something to help. The full on libertarian platform would easily be defeated, it can be portrayed as "vote for me and you're on your own", and people aren't ready for that.

Frankly I think it will take a generation or two to evolve a given nation from being passengers in life to being explorers in life, but how more interesting a challenge could one hope for, it's all to play for, and a great time to be alive for brave people with a brighter vision.

Visit your local childrens hospital and ask a nurse to show you around a ward or two. If after that you still find that leaving your country and it's problems behind to go and live in a libertarian paradise is consistent with your ethics, so be it.

By the way, happy Bastille Day everyone, I'm having a minutes silence now for those who died for Liberty, Egality, and Fraternity.

Visit your local childrens hospital and ask a nurse to show you around a ward or two. If after that you still find that leaving your country and it's problems behind to go and live in a libertarian paradise is consistent with your ethics, so be it.

I lived in one such hospital as a child for two months.. I'm not sure what's your point?

The question is whether what I can do here would outweigh what I can accomplish there. Here, I would likely be taking a greater risk to fight a near impossible cause. I would literally have to start from scratch in order to establish any kind of libertarian presence. There such a movement already exists, and by joining it I boost the focus on one place in the world where it is most likely we would succeed, rather than contributing to our being scattered around and therefore stretched too thin. And supposing that we are successful, the news of what we have accomplished will go all around the world therefore influencing even many europeans with a powerful idea that is now even reestablished in a real world practical example.

NH is not a "libertarian paradise" though. It is not a libertarian state. It is just the closest we have to one. People still get arrested for non-violent "crimes", acts which furthermore actually never should've been illegal given the US constitution.

That said, it is actually safer for me to start a grassroots movement in Croatia from NH rather than Croatia itself, at least online.. and that's really the best way to do such thing nowadays. I can have a web site in croatian presenting libertarian values to the croatian public, gathering croatian libertarians within and without croatia to discuss some strategy etc. In this global world, moving to one place does not necessarily mean 100% ignorance to the other.

That said, relocating to another continent is a fairly huge undertaking at this point and it's unlikely to happen soon, if I ever succeed. At this point it is just an idea that I am increasingly considering. Meanwhile, and actually regardless of whether I move or not, I am interested in european affairs and I do wish to contribute one way or another to setting things right, which is where we may still have some shared goals.