No one is discounting what the Wake 9 folks have been doing to promote wakesurfing. Their energy and enthusiasm is probably second to none, and is to be commended and not condemned. The same stands true for anyone that takes the time to grow the sport.

What everyone needs to understand is:

Wakesurfing will never be more that a niche sport that caters to a small population. It is not soccer or baseball where fifty dollars worth of equipment gets you playing. It is a huge investment, if you are serious about the sport your investment is well over 60k…. Plus supporting the habit costs well over 10k a year. Ask yourself, What percentage of the North American population has wakeboats? And what small percentage of these people surf? And what small percentage of these people surf competitively? I would say the answer is 0.00001%
So… If everyone in this community wants to see this sport grow to its full potential, and see world class events it needs the help from every single boat manufacturer, board maker, rope manufacturer, life jacket sewing sponsor it can get.

I am keeping brand names out of this so please bear with me. As an example I have a competitive board that love, its awesome. The manufacturer of this board will never be able to cut a cheque to an event organizer for 100k to host the “World’s Greatest Wake surf Event” not now, not ever. It is not that they are greedy or are poor business people its just that the industry and the revenues are just too small. If there is ever going to be such a great event, odds are it will be sponsored by a wakeboard company that mass produces basic boards, or the sport becomes big enough that some form of energy drink starts to pay attention.

My message is simple, lets get this sport back to what it was, (it used to be all about the surfing) and forget the “my boats wave is better then yours” or “that board is crap” because I aspire to/ or have an affiliation with a supplier because we will need every single one of them.
Especially the boat manufacturers that sponsor events and riders.

This sport needs people like Wake 9, and it needs aggressive sponsorship from companies like Centurion. At the end of the day what it has to have is mutual respect between the advocates and the sponsors so the end result is beneficial to all. So stop bashing the King and embrace the big wave!!!

I have seen first hand how Wake9 handles promotion. The Polar Bear ride and the Spring competition were great events. I believe Robert invited anyone with boards that would work for big guys to send boards. There were several different manufactures present. Robert made sure we tried all the manufactures. Not just the ones he had contact with. He than wanted to know what we thought. He ask that we be fair and honest but not derogatory. He said something to the affect that all the manufactures had made an effort and that was important. I think if you looked at the report it was clear which boards were best but none were written off as useless. I know that cost Robert some money for they day. When I offered to kick in some money to help he refused then bought me dinner. We were around his family all day and all the kids were some of the best behaved kids I have been around. They helped with what they could and were nothing short of great. I am not sure why Robert did that event except to help the industry.

The spring event was a little different. The money involved with that event appeared to be much higher. I have become friends with the people at California Marine Sports. The support Wake surfing and I stop in there too much. Tige was a named sponsor and yes Robert pushed them A LOT but Grant from CMS also had a Supreme 226 that all the riders road behind and Robert did post reviews of it also. I think he invited any manufacture to bring their boats for demos. By the way CMS is one or was one of James Walker's sponsors. There were several different board manufactures present. There was one guy who makes his boards in Idaho. I can't remember his name but they were nice boards. You talk about helping out the guy that can't spend 100K to promote their boards. I have seen Robert do that. That event was a fun event that cost Robert a lot of money. Did he get something out of it. I have heard he did but I would say he earned everything he may have received. Did it help the sport? YES Did it help out some smaller board MFG. YES

It sounds to me like Robert may have said something about an Enzo that you did not like. Maybe something like they are a one sided boat and his family needs a two sided boat. That is personal preference. Many in his family ride goofy. Many of the people that he takes out ride regular. I can see why he would want the type of boat he has.

I would love to see an event where you could demo several different kinds of boats. Not to see which is best but to see which one fits the needs of individuals.

I have seen nothing but good from Wake9. Everyone that I know of who has been around him and his family I think would say the same thing. I don;t know you but you might want to know Robert and his family before you come down on him like you have.

You're right Fred. I remeber years ago when some goof balls tried to start a company where you skiid on a board standing sideways...i think it was called Burton? or something like that...just fold up the tent folks...it'll never work.

I wonder if snowboarding would be as popular if we had to buy and maintain the chairlift?.... Probably not fair, try this on for size. Out of the 5.5 million people in the US that snowboard (US snowboard Retailers Association), what percentage do you think never ever ride a chairlift and have purchased their own snowcat to get themselves up the mountain?

Cable parks have grown wakeboarding immensely, maybe one day there will be surfable flo-riders in 10% of the aquatic centers across the US and I will be kicking myself for not buying shares in a wakesurf board company.

I snowboard here in CO (20th season for me) and I know people that never ever purchase lift tickets or even go to a resort. You're looking at a minimum of $100 a day to snowboard at a resort, pretty pricey! There are plenty of passes that you can drive a car to the top of and let your buddies out and then meet them at the bottom and take turns. Others purchase snowmobiles to get to their favorite spots. Are they $60k boats? No but they are a significant cost. As for wakesurfing, it is a small niche but some people buy boards that don't own boats and hitch rides from those that do own boats (still a small portion). Look at the wakeboard and water ski industry as a whole, how much are those industries worth? Still a niche but people are making some nice profits from it.

The snowboard companies also have clothing lines to subsidize their sales. Burton sells jackets, gloves pants, goggles etc etc. I would not be surprised if half the other name brand equipment your see in board shops is owned by them. I would fathom a guess that the actual boards are a very small part of their revenue compared to the peripheral Items. Think of this the next time you walk into the store. You have to walk by hundreds of jackets/gloves/hats etc (sold at a much better margin) to get to the back wall where the snowboards are kept. What I think keeps Burton alive at the end of the day is not their board sales but the diversity of the company based on brand recognition and impulse sales (“look at this!! Cool gloves, they are Burton’s and they are only 30 bucks”) over and over in stores all over the world.
Will wakesurfing ever get to this level? No I don’t think so, there are just to many financial barriers for it to grow that big. Could a company like “Bobs Custom Wakesurf boards” get to be as big as Burton? You bet, but not on wakesurfing alone.

You mentioned the wakerskiing and wakeboarding industries…. One has to wonder what the industry would have looked like today if Herb O’Brien did not sell his company to Coleman (yes Coleman). The sale allowed him to launch H.O. in such a manner that he had the capital to spend on design and marketing and to do what he needed to do to grow the sport. Its actually a great story about an industry pioneer.

The ski and wakeboard industries have survived with a small market audience, one thing you need to remember when we compare wakesurfing to these sports is that a high percentage of the people participating in these sports are doing it behind an I/O or OB boat. Essentially a maket that is unavailable to the wakesurf manufacturing community. I also wonder, with the development of cable parks, how it is going to impact boat sales. If the boat is sitting on the driveway because the kids are at the cable park and dad and mom or golfing…., or “Maybe we should sell the Malibu and get a Cobalt, the kids prefer to wakeboard at the cable park anyway”.

All this is very interesting, I wish I could see into the future. What I do know, is that as the boarding and skiing population ages it is gravitating to wakesurfing due to the social and lower impact nature of the sport. These people (for the most part) will not be buying the high end, skill required, fragile, big wave required, competition boards. They will be snapping up the 7’10” Landlock and we will be subject to a million more youtube video’s of people drinking a beer while surfing. But that’s OK because it all feeds the growth of the sport.

Question: What is to stop this sport becoming more "main stream" by the introduction of wavepools or an improved version of what is already out there?

While it is true that this sport, as it stands now, seems destined to have a small following, isn't it possible for interest generated by surfing events, in person and on television stations like Fuel, to become just that? More main stream. I'm a third, and probably always will be, but I do have an interest in surfing, so much so, that I plan to build several boards. It would also seem that the board designs, which are being created for inland surfing, could be more easily adapted (or ready) for a amped up (actually maybe even retrofitable to existing "normal" pools) wave pool making skim board only wavepools (due to the thin layer of water) be a thing of the past.

Read the first post and then look who wrote it. Fred basically wrote about wakesurfing much the way Tom Cruise wrote about sports managment in Jerry Maguire. Only Fred didn't get fired after telling the "ugly truth".

How much more than wake boarding or skiing? I think for a top of the line water ski you will pay about $1500. You have to be in better shape and you may have to belong to a club if you want to use buoys. Some say skiing is dieing but the new Correct Crafts 200 was their top selling boat. Wake boards may cost less but it cost more to pull a wake board. Today on the part of the delta there were 5 boats all surfing.

I don't think wave pools has anything to do with wakesurfing. They are both maybe "cousins" of surfing, but doesn't seem to relate.

The issue is NOT my boat is better than your boat, the issue for me is that we should demand and promote, boats that are easier and easier to weight, setup, and throw great wakes on both sides. As more manufacturers do that, wakesurfing will grow more, because it will be much easier for people to do it. And if manufacturers, think of the supreme v226, do this more affordably, also the new Tige RZR and RZ0 and probably others, then more and more people will be able to afford a boat, and pick up the sport. Especially when there are places like wake9, that offer easy how tos and such, in a way that is very UNintimidating. There are other sites that are also doing the same thing, and that is awesome. People that know me know that I love the equipment I use, but I also don't care what equipment you use. Just tonight, I met with a guy on the dock with a Centurion Elite V. A week or so ago, I saw them struggling, and they came over and asked some questions. We were chasing the RZ2 and filming Sean Cummings. I told him we were doing a shoot, but threw him a board that I knew he would enjoy better than what he was riding. I told him to look for me later, and just give it back then, have fun. Today we talked about weighting and discussed setting a time so we could come out and help. That is what we are doing all the time. Those people see the videos, and either find me, or call, email, and we are happy to help. If not in person, online. Its not about my boat is better than yours. Its about making wakesurfing easy and amazing for many more people. Tige has been receptive to me, and have been one, not the only, manufacture moving in that direction. I am sure Centurion and others will also be moving in that direction. I am sorry that I feel "easy to weight, and same wake on both sides" are part of my criteria, they just are. And that is just me.

I don't think wave pools has anything to do with wakesurfing. They are both maybe "cousins" of surfing, but doesn't seem to relate.

In the current form of wave pools yes, but not in what I have in my head. I visualize a 4' deep pool, with a hull shaped device, which could be either fixed or adjusted in one end of the pool and in front of where the rider ride the surf. He/she would deploy from this hull shaped device in what could be very close to a swimdeck. Don't think it is possible? Who built the first wakeboard cable park?

Possible, I guess so. Practical, I don't know. I just don't see it, but thats just me. Wakesurfing is a mimic or substitute for ocean surfing. I would guess any pool would be designed after ocean surfing, not trying to duplicate the wakesurfing experience with a hull. Like those flowrider or whatever pools. Even though they are nothing like a surf wave, or a wakesurf wake. So in a sense, would just create a whole new experience, with a whole new type of boards, etc, if it took off.

The issue is NOT my boat is better than your boat, the issue for me is that we should demand and promote, boats that are easier and easier to weight, setup, and throw great wakes on both sides. As more manufacturers do that, wakesurfing will grow more, because it will be much easier for people to do it. And if manufacturers, think of the supreme v226, do this more affordably, also the new Tige RZR and RZ0 and probably others, then more and more people will be able to afford a boat, and pick up the sport. .

Blah blah blah, for the 1,000 TIME. Just because the set up and wave is different from one side to the other does not make the wave bad, just different. Both are easy to set up. Heck, I could have a driver, Ragboy sitting in the "ballast seat" and an Enzo sac and get a nice wave on both sides of the Enzo you continuously bash. Since this is all about preference, I would rather have either of these Enzo waves than your RZ2 wave (especially since both boats cost about the same +/-$75K). I certainly would rather have an Avy than your RZ2 because I can buy one for about $20K less (Avy = +/- $50K).

One more, What is Tige RZR and RZ0 going to cost? I bet they list for at least $55K. That does not seam like that great a deal for a 20ft boat.

Finally, I dont think anybody should suggest a boat without telling people what they cost. I find it amusing that people talk about what boat is best and $ hardly every comes up. But hey, all of this is just my opinion.

@Ragboy: we do agree on the Supreme 226. Very solid boat for +/- $55K with a great wave and a lot of room. But for most, $55K is still a lot of $$$$$. So if this is your "entry level" price, the surf market will continue to be very limited unless people migrate to some type of "pool" wave.

I am not saying the wave is bad, I just PERSONALLY want to see boats that are easy to setup on both sides with the same weight and same wake. If people want to spend the money on the enzo, and they love the wake, on either side, and aware of what it takes to do on both sides, whether they consider that easy or hard, great. They should buy that boat.

You are not going to hear me say on video, or on my site, and even here that the enzo sucks, that is not my message. I was just kidding with Jeff back there, but I won't do that again, just because it was not necessary, and it obviously offended some. No problem, I can alter my behavior that way.

But it won't change the fact that I have a personal criteria, that I want to see in great surf boats, that I will always show a preference too. And that criteria may evolve. You may disagree with me, cool. Part of that criteria is about ease and comfort and automation, and the other is about safety (referring to why I don't put the sanger v215 on my list, when weighted, the water is almost or at upholstery).

I do think, however, the debate on here has been helpful for me in evolving my preference, or criteria. And I have been very careful to tell people that they would be mistaken if they do not test drive the sanger v215 (great cheap used boat for wakesurfing) and the enzo, because they may love it.

Also, you should be happier with an Avy, if that is your favorite boat, especially for the price. I don't care of the RZ2 is not your favorite. Just allow me to have my favorite, the RZ2. And then after that, I think I would probably look more towards the supreme, then maybe the sanger v237, but some of those preferences are not because of the wake, other considerations. Geez, its all about preferences. Enjoy yours, as I will enjoy mine.

You are not going to hear me say on video, or on my site, and even here that the enzo sucks, that is not my message..

If that is not your message, you basically imply it a lot. I dont want to start this with you all over again, but here are just two quotes from you regarding an Enzo wave that you have post in a previous thread on this site.

"@dennis and @lkw I am sure you are correct that it is POSSIBLE to get a decent opposite wake on the enzo"

"On the Centurion Enzo, "Some people think it has the best wake, and it may, its preference, its definitely a good wake, but only on one side"."

Like I have said to you before, everybody that has been on this site for more than 10 minutes knows your preference (you should actually use it as a tag line). But just dont act surprised when people take it "the wrong way" when you slight an Enzo for the 1,000 time.

understand. And it truly was just tongue and cheek in the inland/flyboy thread, but I will refrain from that. Due to the enflamed threads here, it has become a signature I guess, for me on WW. But not on my site, or in person. But lets be clear, I am not saying the Enzo is a bad boat, just saying it doesn't meet my criteria for a boat I would just flat out recommend.

So if someone is OK with the extra coin for a new RZ2, over an Avy or a Supreme, great, but if not they have choices. If someone is ok that the opposite side wake on the Enzo takes some more work, and not as good as the other side, then great, and if not, there are choices.

See hear is the thing. I don't need to MAKE SURE they know the RZ2 costs more. There is NO way they are going to buy that boat, without dealing with the cost. Does that make sense? If I don't say, "make sure you know the RZ2 costs xxx more than the xxx", it doesn't matter. I have never heard of anyone buying a boat, and then afterwards going, "hey, how come this is more than those other boats?". No, that all gets worked out at the dealer.

However, it is possible for someone to buy an enzo, take a test drive and see regular wake, and then later have a goofy friend visit on their boat, and they never realized.

I used to say the same thing when people would ask me about the 24Ve. I would say, "make sure you understand, I had to change my prop and my deck to get this wake. Not like this out of the box". I wasn't bashing my 24Ve, I love that boat. But people should know, you buy a 24Ve, don't expect my wake.

Same with my RZ2. I am careful to state how we weight out boat, its not just the stock system. Its not a bash, its a caveat.

One month later its the same ol' same ol' Rag goes on the Tige platform again. Nice.

Quote:

You are not going to hear me say on video, or on my site, and even here that the enzo sucks, that is not my message. I was just kidding with Jeff back there, but I won't do that again, just because it was not necessary, and it obviously offended some. No problem, I can alter my behavior that way.

My friend,,,you have exemplified that message crystal clear of your feelings from day one and on multiple threads.

Obviously the Burke's message went in one ear and rigt out the other with some.

ANYBODY who wants to get a surfset behind a boat with me, shoot me a PM. I DONT CARE what boat ya have, lets just get out and have some fun and not make this sport rocket science .

Can someone explain the source of all of the animosity on this site? Did you guys both go after the prettiest girl for the high school prom, and one got shot down? did one of you flush the others head in the toilet or give him a wedgie? It just seems like we all enjoy the sport, and as long as we are being safe (ie, no OBs or I/O), then we can all just be supportive of each other.

The 100% fully automated goofy wake on my Centurion Enzo SV240 with one 1400 lb. ballast sac is a better wake than the Tige RZ2 wake on either side, if I only fill the regular/port side sac to 800 lbs. I get the exact same wake on both sides which is still better than the Tige RZ2 but, why would anyone do that, be like buying a Ferrari and only driving the speed limit.

I wonder if someone on here get's paid everytime they say something to the effect of "its definitely a good wake, but only on one side"?

This wakesurf forum has become nothing more than a place to advertise.

i started off reading this topic just to kill some time and then things started popping up that just bug me.... First off if a company wants to promote wakesurfin and make it more main stream/easier entry then you guys can stop babbling about the little things and go straight to PRICE.... when it costs a family 50k+ to start then you exclude probably 80% of the population.. I mean the boats are amazing and everything and one day maybe I will own one of those nice boats but I put in 16k to the boat and another 2k for boards, sacs, etc. to get my 20i able to surf... and most of the people around my neck of the woods think I am crazy for spending that much on something I can do on the weekend for only 5 months out of the year... I absolutely hate all the manufacturers putting out so called PRICE POINT boats... thats a bunch of BS... 45k is not price point... I would say 30k-35k is price point with a decent warranty and all that is needed to surf/board whichever is your pleasure... it doesn't need digital this and digital that... it needs cruise, plenty of power, good quality (not great but good), enough ballast to throw its best wave, and to be a vdrive for the whole crew... THATS IT ladies and gentleman... I don't mind the boards being 500 bucks for middle of the road boards because a board will last and you can sell/ship it pretty easily to get a new one... and compared to the boats price tag very little.. Its all about who is going to the brave sole to step up and make the price point boat for the average citizen bc right now not one of the manufacturers are doing this... BUILD IT AND THEY WILL COME .... I don't care what company it is...

JMO everyone has a right to like whatever boat they want. Let DW make the call if they are trying to advertise. He usually takes care of that quite well. Do I think the boat manufactures are over pricing these boats? Yes I do. Is 80k for a surf boat ridiculous? Hell ya ! My suggestion is if you want a great equal wave on both sides , buy a AVALANCHE! And no, I do not work for Centurion. I will never trade my Avy in. When the motor is toast, ill just repower it. IMO I think it throws the best wave on both sides. What did they use at Worlds when the Enzos broke? LOL . I just wish the manufacturers would make a boat under 50k, so more people might be a le to afford to try this sport. Ragboy keep up the great work pushing this sport, if the Tige workable for what your doing than keep doing it! I believe e everything wake 9 does, is purely to push the sport and not to sell Tige's . But you do know the Avy is a great on both sides right? LOL WAKE9 ROCKS!!!! Tell RJ I dId what's up? From Tony in the PNW.

i wonder how many new v-drive boats were sold this year ...... and how many each company sold ........ if the total is so low that they have to make good money on every one made the cost will never come down ....... then if things pick back up and they start selling more boats will they just cash in on all the profit ...... business is business and the goal is to make money ...... so building upper end boats for the upper end consumer makes better sense nowadays to me it seems

After reading this I have come to the conclusion that the Centurion people are a little touchy. Why does one boat or boat manufacture have to have the best wake? I found after surfing behind a few different boats that personal preference and style have a lot to do with it. WakeDoc is a perfect example. If Ragboy would have said the exact opposite the Centurion people would have come un-glued. We are talking about personal preference. WakeDoc may love his wake but is it better than Ragboy's? Not to Ragboy. If it were he would have bought a different boat. I have only read Robert write and talk about what he likes and what is important to his family. He found a boat that meet his needs. He loves it and wants everyone to know what he loves about it. WacDoc thinks his boat is better. Well for him it is but not for others. Most think my boat is a crappy surf boat but I like it. More because it is paid off and fits in my garage than the ultimate wake.

As far as this site becoming only a place to advertise is that a bad thing? I would like to see more boats, more boards, more ropes more tricks, more bags, more pumps, and more of what ever is out there. I missing reading Surfdads builds just because now he is part of Fly Boy/Inland. That was one of the things that got me through winter. I just bought a Calibrated Board how many people would like to know how I like it? might be a option for someone but if that is considered advertising I guess I will keep it to myself.

A little touchy Roger Stratford, not at all I just do not believe it is right for people that clearly have an agenda to spread propaganda about something they have no experience with "its definitely a good wake, but only on one side" is absolutely false. As I have said before the Centurion Enzo makes a great wake on the goofy side and an even better one on the regular side but, some people would like for others to believe different.

You know Roger Stratford it would be like you saying that X-brand board only rides good on the goofy side wake and going on and on about it when in fact you have never owned one of the boards and are basing your opinion on what you have seen and others have said. You say that you want to see more boards, etc. do you want the truth about that board/product or do you want to hear inaccurate information about the board from someone that is based on an agenda not the facts?

You do not see me bashing Tige, Malibu or any other brand yet some seem to go out of their way to over and over and over, again and again, that to me is an agenda and as long as the false statements are made I will post the facts.

I wish the weather was better so I could go surf instead of reading posts from little girls argue about who's boat is better! At this point in my life with the economy tanking I am just happy I have a boat and praying I get to keep it.

I do own a Tige and is it the best wake I have seen?... no! Does it work for me?... yep! For me I am a goofy rider and everyone else that rides in my boat is regular so I need to have a good wake on both sides and I don't want sacs all over my seats. When I purchased my boat in 08 I knew nothing about wakesurfing and being a Tigeowners member Ragboy started posting videos of his family and Wake9 started to evolve and has helped so... many people including myself. I will continue to be a Wake9 supporter as long as I am having fun and learning to progress in a sport that has helped my Family and friends become closer. I will also say that I do know Ragboy and his family personally and they are some of the most kind hearted people I have ever met and I dont think the tongue and cheek comments about Centurion are meant the way you are all taking them.

@Wakedoc As I said before I dont care what type of boat it is if it puts out a good wake on both sides I would love to ride behind it. With me being the owner of the boat Goofy side is the most important so would I be able to buy a new Centurion set up for me and still get a good wake on the regular side for my family and friends to enjoy? Once again all hidden weight I dont want sacs on my seats! I think my requirements for my boat are the same as Ragboys I have not seen the Enzo be able to do this but my only reference would be from the NWWSA comp where the goofy boat had a huge sack on the back seats and I cannot have that! I personally think the Enzo is a sharp boat and I would love to own one but as with Ragboy it has to meet the requirements above.

The best way I can think of to prove people wrong is with pictures/ videos. Post em up!! I truly want to see them. I bet if someone would give Wake9 a Enzo to demo I truly believe Ragboy would give it a true test and video it for all to see.

As a final disclaimer I am not loyal to any brand for I have seen boats from all the brands that I could see myself owning including the 2010 Black/orange/white Centurion Enzo Sv230 that was at the NWWSA comp that I would have traded my Tige for if were in a better financial situation and it met my requirements from above.

@anthonyv911 Yes, I am well aware the Avy makes a great wake on both sides. It is one of the boats I always have on my "recommend" list, and it has for some time. Thanks for the support.

@majestic Yes, that black/orange/white Enzo was killer. I believe that was Brent Pott's boat. He is a rep for Centurion, very nice guy. I can't believe I forgot about it, but I have a picture of that boat, but the interesting thing is the picture of the other boat, Mark Sher's boat. I was sitting there with RJ and I notice his boat. What I notice, is several lovely ladies, and Mark Sher, hanging out in his boat. I have said in the past, that Sher was/is a "hero" of wake9, as far as wakesurfing. Mark didn't know it, but RJ and I gave him the "slow clap" and I snapped a couple of pics on my iphone.

Back to the topic at hand. I have no desire to "bash" the enzo, and definitely not centurion. There is no question Centurion has been great to/for wakesurfing. If JKW had made a comment in a post, "I will disown you if you switch to a tige " or something of that nature. I would have chuckled. Its just poking fun at the previous "incident". Thats all I was doing, and I didn't even think twice about it. But I won't do that again, and I don't have hard feelings about that. If it offends someone, I don't mind refraining.

But I am not going to stop saying, "make sure you ride both sides and are aware the the opposite side is as good as the other. It also takes more work to get it to that point." when referring to the enzo. The enzo will be on my list to tell people they need to demo it, but will have that caveat. Your posts above confirm that to be true. Lets move on, its my opinion.

You may say, that the enzo goofy wake (on a left-surf boat) is better than my RZ2. That's your opinion, but I would firmly disagree with that. But I don't care if that is your opinion. My opinion is valid, based on my observations and my son's personal experience, lots of video, and testimony from other owners and riders. I feel comfortable with it.

I will never think less of anyone with an Enzo, or any other boat that I don't care for personally. I will always include the Enzo in my list of boats to test, but not on my list of boats I would recommend based on my criteria. We gotta move on, I have listened to your side, and I have altered what I say, I think JKWs thoughts that I should put the enzo on my "you should test" list. That makes sense to me, and I do. Other than that, I feel pretty solid, even with the flames.

Again, I apologize for my tongue in cheek remark, and I will be more careful. But my opinion is above, and will remain. I don't think its bashing anything, just one guys opinion. I am working on a demo event, hopefully we can at least have one enzo there.

On the advertising... I am doing the same I always have. Share my experiences, my family and my gear. The flyboy is a good example. Its an amazing leap, how can I not promote that. I laugh when people think I am making money on that. Now that it is going to inland, I will still promote it because we own and love one. But I probably won't sell anymore. I will point to towanza or somewhere else. I love Jeff Walker and Inland, but I am not a retailer, and don't want to be. It takes away from my goals at wake9. That may sound strange, but when Inland takes over, they won't need my help selling it. I did thoroughly enjoy helping Jeff though. Its not about the money for me, I don't think people get that. But every time I try to explain, people don't believe me. So I don't try to explain anymore.

This is like beating a DEAD HORSE. Everyone knows that Ragboy will continue to be a shameless promoter of Tige's, and nobody is going to change his mind. It has also been hashed to death that he is a good guy and loves wakesurfing. Great! So.....Just decide that if you want endless slobbering over his Tige go to wake 9 and read his posts, and read what he says here. If not just ignore it and Shamelessly promote YOUR GEAR. Interestingly enough Wakeworld has a policy against promoting anything that you in any way shape or form profit from. Not sure how promoting another site that sells gear for a PROFIT does not fit into this category.

Okay, now get ready for another 2000 words from Ragboy justifying his position.

@ WakeDoc I would like to know what people think of lots of boards. I know that each person will like or dislike depending preference. I know if I let Dennis Horton ride my new board he would not like it because he is not a skim style guy. I like it and am glade I have it in my boat now. The nice thing about places like this there are others who can agree or disagree with a review and if you read all the reviews you will have some idea.

Robert was not the first to say the Enzo is different on each side. Centurion has gone to the trouble to make the boat either a goofy or regular boat. I am not sure any other manufacture has gone to that trouble. The boat I have also had a reputation of not having a good off side wake. I have it dialed in so it is not bad.

Robert my have indicated the Enzo does not have a good off side wake but so has Centurion. They have engineered around this. No one goes through that much effort if both sides are the same. If I remember correctly at one of the championships Centurion had a right hand prop boat and a left hand side boat. If the Enzo had the same wake on both sides there would have been just one boat or at least one direction prop. Enzo are not perfect. Neither is any other boat. You think your is better than mine or Robert but all of the boats have strengths and weaknesses. Enjoy your Enzo but don't feel like it is being attacked because someone does not agree with you.

If I remember correctly at one of the championships Centurion had a right hand prop boat and a left hand side boat. If the Enzo had the same wake on both sides there would have been just one boat or at least one direction prop.

i dont think people are reading this post correctly.

No one has said the Enzo has the same wake on both sides. What were are saying is "yes they are different, but they are still both very good. Actually, one is arguably the best of any boat and the other is still a very solid wave" Which is much different than one is good and one sucks. The fact that Centurion allows you to decide which side you want to the the better side should be applauded. Also, the fact that Centurion would build two new Enzo for a surf contest should also be applauded. You dont see any other manufacturer supporting wakesurfing the way Centurion does.

You dont even have to believe our opinion on the Enzo wave. Just go look at Wake9 video of the NW contest and see two regular Enzos pulling a contest. You will be able to see that both the waves are not the same, but both waves are still very good (the regular side is down right amazing)

Reality, waves are very subjective and we will never agree on which wave is best. In the end, you should go test drive as many boats as possible and see what works for you. At the end of the day, you can get a very surfable wave out of nearly any boat.

Keep in mind, the NWOpen the year before, was NOT like that, video also available at wake9, and that this year it took about 1000 lbs extra on the goofy side to make that wave. If people are willing to do that, then great, they should by one and love it.

I have personally seen, and RJ has ridden, when the Enzo is weighted on the regular side, and has a great wake, take the similar weight and put on the goofy side, and its not a good wake. Not a good wake in my opinion, and in RJ's opinion, and I think I can safely say others. Now that is not a bash, or even necessarily a bad thing. That is just not the boat for me and my family. So put an extra 700-1000 lbs on the goofy side, and get a decent-good wake. Again, if you are cool with that, buy it and love it.

Funy thing is you just DO NOT know what you are talking about. You have only been around a hand full of Enzo's and the majority of them were weighted for a contest, so I doubt you were riding in the boat. We surf goofy with one enzo sac 1400 lbs. and everyone loves the wake, it is longer and taller than the regular or goofy wakes on most boats that are using more weight to produce the same or less. Maybe others do but, we do not find the need to go out every weekend overload and over work our boat to have a "contest quality" wave.

I love these shill threads wherein the non-surfing poseur argues with people who actually own the boats that he is bashing, and wherein the non-surfing poseur argues with people who can, and do, wakesurf (unlike him) about the quality of various wakes.

It makes for some good laughs of the "laughing at you" rather than "laughing with you" kind.

These threads certainly don't reflect positively on the various brands that the non-wakesurfing poseur repeatedly tries to pimp on this forum.

Although many of the poseur's threads reek of SPAM, they are often entertaining, in a train-wreck -that-you-can't-look-away-from-kind-of-way.

Lets just move on and agree to disagree. I don't think my boat is better than yours, I just think my boat is the best for me and my family. I have enough experience with the enzo to make that decision. The thing is, I don't think it is a bad boat, not at all, and same for centurion, no problems. So I promise to be very careful, and won't make any tongue in cheek remarks to a friend, and you guys don't have to call it out again and start a whole new thread. I picked the boat I wanted, you pick the boat that you want, and lets all have fun wakesurfing with our families or whomever you wakesurf with. And if you are ever in NorCal and want to surf with our family, let me know. Others do, and we have a great time, no matter what kind of boat they have. And keep watching the videos on wake9 if you want, I am sure there will be more from Enzos, and more supreme stuff coming, and I have some X-45 stuff on the way to me now from the nationals. Because I paid to fly dennis out there to video tape it and help promote the sport, and hey, no Tige. Of course, on wake9 you will also see a lot of stuff on my RZ2, can't help it, its our boat, and we love it. Just taught a new 17 yr old kid today to surf on it, great day today.

. So put an extra 700-1000 lbs on the goofy side, and get a decent-good wake. Again, if you are cool with that, buy it and love it.

@Ragboy: dont worry I give up and I am done posting on this issue. BTW, this quote is complete BS and is why I have a problem with you giving your opinion on an Enzo (which you have been on probably no more than 5 times). I just find it funny how you post a vid of an RZ2 with 2,800lbs in it (nearly sink it BTW) and act like its such a great wave. Put the same weight on the goofy side of an Enzo (at a surf contest, could easily run less for a great weekend warrior wave) and complain. Like I said before, I could run an Enzo sac, a driver and you on either side of an Enzo and get a great wave (but yes, they would be different but still very good).

In the end, talking to you about this is pointless and a complete waist of my time.

@Ragboy: Also, just to point out how biased you are on this topic. The goofy wave at the NW contest was not just "a decent-good wake." By several peoples accounts, it was a very solid, meaty, clean wave that had a lot of power in it.

To everybody else: I dont care what boat you buy. Please test drive as many as you can and buy the one that works for you. There are a lot of boats that have very good waves when set up correctly. Just please dont drop the Enzo from your list based on Ragboy's BS comments about the goofy wave. Does the goofy wave take a different set up: yes. Does it take more weight: yes, about 500lbs. Does it need Bennett/Lenco Trim tab: yes, plate all the way down. Here is a weekend warrior set up that has worked for guys that I know run Enzo in TX:

1,500lb Enzo sac
500lbs - 750lbs on surf seat (people or sacs)
Trim plate all of the way down

One boat that gets little credit is the malibu. We put around 1800 lbs of sacs in the boat on top of the stock ballast 11.5 mph and get a way better wave than my buddys new rz2 with a 1000 lb sac in its corner locker . We ride goffy but the malibu makes agreat port side wake also. the LSV is priced about the same as the rz2 in our area, and has way more room (cockpit) than any of these boats, and handles way better when empty.

Lastly, we are mincing words over decent, good, great. I said its good, you want me to say its great I guess. At the end of the day, I don't think it matters what I think, people need to find what's best for them. And I am working towards making that easier. First, we are video taping lots of wakes and contests, and will post all of them, but that is not enough.

As you know, I am a software developer. I have developed applications that efficiently do something called parametric filtering or searching. If you go to mywake.tige.com, and go to riders, you can see what I mean. You can click on female, male, classes. regions, and instantly see a paired down list if those people have filled out there profile.

I have been working on a camera setup for a year, that I feel very good about. I have finally got there, and will be posting on this in the fall. The idea is the same cameras in the same place on a boat. Film the wake, fill in a form about the setup and boat and year and all. Then people can click on the makes they want, weight ranges, terms like "all water ballast", "automated", things like that, and watch videos with the same lens and camera and position.

I will be purchasing a couple extra setups and providing instructions. I will even send you out the setup. You will just have to let me auth your CC and sign a doc, and I will send out the stuff, you pay for shipping. You send back, I put up the video and the data. No commentary from me. I am not letting on my entire plan, but that is the gist. You can be a manufacturer, or just some guy who thinks he has the killer setup. As long as you give me an auth on your cc, I will send out the stuff, and no charge if back undamaged.

My point is, I am not out to say I have the best boat, but I want people to be able to clearly see for themselves, apples to apples, then make a buying decision.

I still have some stuff to work out, you may be able to help. If you want to help work out some of the issues to make this work well, then contact me off list. You will have to sign an NDA, but I am open to feedback. I have never posted before, because I wasn't comfortable with the camera setup yet, and I am now. Since testing yesterday.

@jkw thats a good list, no disagreement there. I think the price on the centurion is low, from what a few dealers have told me about the new ones.
the chance yet.

You are probably right on the 2011 Enzo when it really comes out next year. I just looked at the two that pulled World's and they can both be bought for under $80K. I just dont think Centurion is going to be very successful trying to sell Enzo for $100K.

Lastly, we are mincing words over decent, good, great. I said its good, you want me to say its great I guess. At the end of the day, I don't think it matters what I think, people need to find what's best for them. And I am working towards making that easier. First, we are video taping lots of wakes and contests, and will post all of them, but that is not enough.

As you know, I am a software developer. I have developed applications that efficiently do something called parametric filtering or searching. If you go to mywake.tige.com, and go to riders, you can see what I mean. You can click on female, male, classes. regions, and instantly see a paired down list if those people have filled out there profile.

I have been working on a camera setup for a year, that I feel very good about. I have finally got there, and will be posting on this in the fall. The idea is the same cameras in the same place on a boat. Film the wake, fill in a form about the setup and boat and year and all. Then people can click on the makes they want, weight ranges, terms like "all water ballast", "automated", things like that, and watch videos with the same lens and camera and position.

I will be purchasing a couple extra setups and providing instructions. I will even send you out the setup. You will just have to let me auth your CC and sign a doc, and I will send out the stuff, you pay for shipping. You send back, I put up the video and the data. No commentary from me. I am not letting on my entire plan, but that is the gist. You can be a manufacturer, or just some guy who thinks he has the killer setup. As long as you give me an auth on your cc, I will send out the stuff, and no charge if back undamaged.

My point is, I am not out to say I have the best boat, but I want people to be able to clearly see for themselves, apples to apples, then make a buying decision.

I still have some stuff to work out, you may be able to help. If you want to help work out some of the issues to make this work well, then contact me off list. You will have to sign an NDA, but I am open to feedback. I have never posted before, because I wasn't comfortable with the camera setup yet, and I am now. Since testing yesterday.

Lastly, we are mincing words over decent, good, great. I said its good, you want me to say its great I guess. At the end of the day, I don't think it matters what I think, people need to find what's best for them. And I am working towards making that easier. First, we are video taping lots of wakes and contests, and will post all of them, but that is not enough.

As you know, I am a software developer. I have developed applications that efficiently do something called parametric filtering or searching. If you go to mywake.tige.com, and go to riders, you can see what I mean. You can click on female, male, classes. regions, and instantly see a paired down list if those people have filled out there profile.

I have been working on a camera setup for a year, that I feel very good about. I have finally got there, and will be posting on this in the fall. The idea is the same cameras in the same place on a boat. Film the wake, fill in a form about the setup and boat and year and all. Then people can click on the makes they want, weight ranges, terms like "all water ballast", "automated", things like that, and watch videos with the same lens and camera and position.

I will be purchasing a couple extra setups and providing instructions. I will even send you out the setup. You will just have to let me auth your CC and sign a doc, and I will send out the stuff, you pay for shipping. You send back, I put up the video and the data. No commentary from me. I am not letting on my entire plan, but that is the gist. You can be a manufacturer, or just some guy who thinks he has the killer setup. As long as you give me an auth on your cc, I will send out the stuff, and no charge if back undamaged.

My point is, I am not out to say I have the best boat, but I want people to be able to clearly see for themselves, apples to apples, then make a buying decision.

I still have some stuff to work out, you may be able to help. If you want to help work out some of the issues to make this work well, then contact me off list. You will have to sign an NDA, but I am open to feedback. I have never posted before, because I wasn't comfortable with the camera setup yet, and I am now. Since testing yesterday.

That's a typical coder geek (not that there's anything wrong with being a coder) response that fails in the real world.

How does video communicate the amount of drive that a wake has?

How does a video communicate whether that froth that you see is a big deal or just the result of a cleat/rub rail/vent, etc.?

You cannot reasonably expect that comparisons are going to be relevant because camera specs vary (sensor type, field of view, resolution, placement, etc.) and camera angles (due to different mounting angles) vary greatly.

I think it would be MUCH more valuable if the same rider (yes, someone who actually wakesurfs!!) surfed behind different hulls and the weighting specs were given and the RIDERS (people who actually wakesurf!!) gave their impressions based upon actually riding the wake (rather than being just some huge fat sac with legs watching other people wakesurf).

I think that a wake evaluation that includes ragboy as a passenger is inherently invalid, simply based upon his girth/weight.

After all, how many people actually surf with a full grown male adult sitting on another full grown adult's lap?

I took a long break from this site because of this sort of BS. Glad to see nothing has changed. The hate, insults, and pissing competitions are just counterproductive to what the entire sport is about, in my opinion.

Before you proceed any further, please note that many comments have already been made ad nauseum.

These may include but are not limited to:

1) Not getting the joke
2) Pointing out that other people don't get the joke
3) Reflexive anger at the joke
4) Ironically "not getting the joke"
5) Ironically writing a moronic comment
6) Responding to ironic comments earnestly
7) Responding to ironic comments ironically
8) Being a troll
9) Calling out trolls
10) Using ALL CAPS
11) using no caps
12) Saying this is awesome/stupid/funny/not funny
13) Calling upon Jesus as a savior
14) Critiquing Wake9, Tige, Centurion, Wakeworld, Apple, Microsoft, Exxon, BP, etc. as a company
15) Critiquing someone who has posted here as a human being.
16) Critiquing, as a human being, the guy who was critiqued by the thread starter.
17) Bashing one company while 'subtly' promoting another.
18) Offering an opinion while simultaneously refusing an opinion.

If you were planning on using any of the above type of comments, I would encourage you to save your insights for another post. If you actually have something new, humorous and/or interesting to add, then please, go ahead.

I took a long break from this site because of this sort of BS. Glad to see nothing has changed. The hate, insults, and pissing competitions are just counterproductive to what the entire sport is about, in my opinion.

I took a long break from this site because of this sort of BS. Glad to see nothing has changed. The hate, insults, and pissing competitions are just counterproductive to what the entire sport is about, in my opinion.

+2

Totally agree with Blair...this whole thing is ridiculous and petty. You can debate without insulting and being hateful.

The insulting or attempt of belittling has nothing to do with the arguments and/or assertions.

The community can benefit from a great debate but gains nothing and is counterproductive when it is no longer a debate of arguments, assertions, and/or opinions.

Before you proceed any further, please note that many comments have already been made ad nauseum.

These may include but are not limited to:

1) Not getting the joke
2) Pointing out that other people don't get the joke
3) Reflexive anger at the joke
4) Ironically "not getting the joke"
5) Ironically writing a moronic comment
6) Responding to ironic comments earnestly
7) Responding to ironic comments ironically
8) Being a troll
9) Calling out trolls
10) Using ALL CAPS
11) using no caps
12) Saying this is awesome/stupid/funny/not funny
13) Calling upon Jesus as a savior
14) Critiquing Wake9, Tige, Centurion, Wakeworld, Apple, Microsoft, Exxon, BP, etc. as a company
15) Critiquing someone who has posted here as a human being.
16) Critiquing, as a human being, the guy who was critiqued by the thread starter.
17) Bashing one company while 'subtly' promoting another.
18) Offering an opinion while simultaneously refusing an opinion.

If you were planning on using any of the above type of comments, I would encourage you to save your insights for another post. If you actually have something new, humorous and/or interesting to add, then please, go ahead.