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Originally posted by Plastic-Metal

Originally posted by Sketchit

Originally posted by morfidon@Skechit GW 2 has PvE. As the poster above noticed CU is gonna be PvP game. I don't care about cosmetic things. I will go there fight and have fun. That wouldn't allow them to develop as fast as they will with monthly fee subscription.

League of Legends is PvP only. You wouldn't think people would care about cosmetic stuff, but they do, and they buy it up. They can develop just as fast because hey - they're not building a pve world.

LoL is a completely different game design. I'm growing tired of trying to be nice to people that continuously compare apples to oranges and act like everyone else is stupid for pointing it out.

I guess you're right. Both are only games. With pvp only in mind. All I'm saying is that it is ignorant to say "LOLZ I'ma pvper, PVPERS DON'T WANT COSMETIC STUFF!"

Please note that I suggested for a B2P game, not a f2p one. I agree with you.

okey b2p without ingame shop ... then agreed.

But tell me .. why is b2p with lame cash shop, buyable races, boosts, buyable currency better for you than p2p with everything opened and no cash shop for you? I dont understand this .. Why should I pay for new race or why should there be any boosts ?

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Originally posted by Sketchit

Mark Jacobs and City State Entertainment:

Please rethink the archaic idea of requiring people to pay a monthly fee to log on and play the game. We are living in a time where money is tight all around, and there are a lot of gamers that are fed up with the idea of paying for the Box Price of a game, and on top of that, paying a monthly fee every single month in order to login and play a game.

I will take World of Warcraft’s model as an example. I had bought most of the game’s expansions, and paid the monthly fee for the game for several years. I had invested heavily into a character, and spent a lot of time revolved around the game. The sad part is that at the end of the month, you had as much right to play as somebody else who is just starting to play the game. It did not matter if you invested hundreds of dollars into the game – as soon as you stopped forking over cash, you lost ALL access to what you so heavily invested in already.

Many MMORPGers use MMORPGs as a hobby. I know video games are indeed a large hobby of mine. A hobby is something you invest in. Could you imagine any other hobby where if you stopping shelling out money, somebody swooped down and took away everything you had put into it already? I cannot. I do recognize that a business needs money in order to continuously provide a service. This is not a charity, and I understand that completely. Hopefully, however, the developers and other players can understand my reasoning as well. Business models that are not flexible are a thing of the past. I’m not crying for CSE to make Camelot Unchained into a F2P game, but there should be some common ground here.

I have a possible solution to this problem.

A box price with no subscription fee.

In-Game shop that sells cosmetic items only. Look how successful League of Legends is – and they have no box price whatsoever.

If you want to change to a different realm/server more than once, perhaps also charge as well.

Offer a conversion of gold to In-Game shop currency much like GW2 [but do not do the reverse, as this enables a pay-to-win environment] does to continue to combat Gold Sellers. This allows people to buy stuff from the store without sinking in real-life cash

Any new races that becomes available after the game releases into the in-game shop as well.

Optional in game subscriptions for reduced price in-game currency as well as veteran rewards for long-term subscribers – special cosmetic housing items, ect.

I know people may look at this list and go, “Ewww, I HATE in-game shops. PERIOD!” But, please, look at what you’re gaining. You get consistent access to a game you’ve bought and paid for. You’re still on a equal playing field with everyone else. Gone would be the days of losing that character you played for so long, all because you’re done sinking money you’ve paid for a game ten times over. Please take my suggestions into consideration as you continue planning out the foundation of CU.

I have to say i disagree with basically all that is said in there.

No offense, but a good mmo requires revenues after th einital sale of the boxed game in order to continue to proide new stuffs, customers service etc.

As for losing access to the game when you stop playing, totally understandable. whether oyu go play pool, go out and have a beer, go to movies, you name it, if one day you decide to stop going out to play pool, the pool table wont come to your place so you cvan play for free.

then afterwards...

1. box price with no subscriptiont fee.

Well, the way i think is this : you buy the box to play the game as it is when you buy it, subscription fee is to ensure what i mention earlier

2. In-Game shop that sells cosmetic items only. Look how successful League of Legends is – and they have no box price whatsoever.

i'm speaking for myself, but i'd never put a single penny to buy anything cosmetic in an RvR oriented mmo, even if the game is F2P. i way prefer to give them 20$ a month and see the game evolve to something better every time there s an update, than using money to buy an "oh what a nice awesome looking armor" that doesnt give you anything more than be able to say " i have a nice awesome looking armor"

3. If you want to change to a different realm/server more than once, perhaps also charge as well.

that would be contrary to the realm pride MJ wants to promote. The only thing the liberty is doing imo is allowing people to swtich from loser side to winning side, or in some cases, MAYBE join friends on other side, but if that is the reason, you need to only change once, then the pirde kicks in again with your friends.

4. Offer a conversion of gold to In-Game shop currency much like GW2 [but do not do the reverse, as this enables a pay-to-win environment] does to continue to combat Gold Sellers. This allows people to buy stuff from the store without sinking in real-life cash

Since i totally disagree on the "store" concept, the F2P concept, i wont elaborate here, self-explanatory.

5. Any new races that becomes available after the game releases into the in-game shop as well.

Once again, i prefer to pay a sub based game and have access to everything that the game has to offer, than having to pay for everything added to the game.

6. Optional in game subscriptions for reduced price in-game currency as well as veteran rewards for long-term subscribers – special cosmetic housing items, ect.

Once again, same arguments stated earlier

I know people may look at this list and go, “Ewww, I HATE in-game shops. PERIOD!” But, please, look at what you’re gaining. You get consistent access to a game you’ve bought and paid for. You’re still on a equal playing field with everyone else. Gone would be the days of losing that character you played for so long, all because you’re done sinking money you’ve paid for a game ten times over. Please take my suggestions into consideration as you continue planning out the foundation of CU.

Having a sub based game also puts everyone equal, with EVERYTHING the game as to offer, even better, i think having to rely on shops exactly does the opposite...the ones with more money coulad have advantages of some sorts over less fortunate players.

So...Thanks but no thanks.

AS much as i want CU to come out, i'd never play it if it was F2P with in game store, or rather, i wouldnt play if didnt have a monthly sub fee.

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Why do you care if there are so many great (sarcasm) F2P games out there for you already? Do you just want another casual game to hop into every once in awhile with the only reason to play is to buy the fluffy santa hat from the cash shop

Well, I'll be the dick. Like another poster pointed out about being tight on money, we all are suffering in a recovering economy. If you can't afford $15 a month, then you need to readjust your free time in trying to earn extra cash to pay to play a game. In the spirit of Mark Jacob's comments about not caring if you offend someone, go back to Guild Wars 2 where you can play for free. I personally don't want to see you in Camelot Unchained, unless you're on the opposite side so I can grief you.

This dead horse has been beaten just as much as tab targetting and collison detection discusions.

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For the kind of niche game with strong sense of community they're trying to make here, I think F2P with cash shop, and to an extent even B2P would mess that community up pretty bad. You'd have a huge population of here today, gone tomorrow players in the game, which would ruin the experience for all the dedicated people.

If you read the foundational principles, you'd know your idea is contrary to some of them.

I prefer sub model to be honest. Let them focus on ways to improve the game and increase subs for their core design, rather than spending all their time thinking of silly cosmetic things to put on a cash shop to try to keep their lights / power on.

Besides, he's talking about some really interesting ways to modify the stale old sub models of $15 per month.

I think we'll see some interesting sub model options.

-Discounts for family plans (multiple accounts in family)

- Different tiers of sub, maybe 4.99, 9.99, 14.99 ?

I don't get why people act like $15 a month is the end of the world anyway. I've had 4 active subs at a time going on games, and don't sweat. I'm not rich by any means either. I'm fresh out of college lol.

Please note that I suggested for a B2P game, not a f2p one. I agree with you.

okey b2p without ingame shop ... then agreed.

But tell me .. why is b2p with lame cash shop, buyable races, boosts, buyable currency better for you than p2p with everything opened and no cash shop for you? I dont understand this .. Why should I pay for new race or why should there be any boosts ?

So, you'd rather, after sinking 500 dollars into a game over the years for expansions, monthly fees, ect, be cut off from the game - cold turkey, for not paying for a month, rather than pay a one time fee, and always have access to the game - with the option for paying for new races that come out, or a cosmetic item. Even if the playing field is the same?

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All I see in your posts is you disagreeing with people and firing back at them. If you wanted a fight why not just step out in the street and hit some one? To me, all you look like, is some one NOT wanting peoples input but wanting people to agree with what you said.

Oh and by the way, this game is YEARS AWAY. Lol lets get our panties in an uproar NOW.

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No offense, but a good mmo requires revenues after th einital sale of the boxed game in order to continue to proide new stuffs, customers service etc.

As for losing access to the game when you stop playing, totally understandable. whether oyu go play pool, go out and have a beer, go to movies, you name it, if one day you decide to stop going out to play pool, the pool table wont come to your place so you cvan play for free.

then afterwards...

1. box price with no subscriptiont fee.

Well, the way i think is this : you buy the box to play the game as it is when you buy it, subscription fee is to ensure what i mention earlier

2. In-Game shop that sells cosmetic items only. Look how successful League of Legends is – and they have no box price whatsoever.

i'm speaking for myself, but i'd never put a single penny to buy anything cosmetic in an RvR oriented mmo, even if the game is F2P. i way prefer to give them 20$ a month and see the game evolve to something better every time there s an update, than using money to buy an "oh what a nice awesome looking armor" that doesnt give you anything more than be able to say " i have a nice awesome looking armor"

3. If you want to change to a different realm/server more than once, perhaps also charge as well.

that would be contrary to the realm pride MJ wants to promote. The only thing the liberty is doing imo is allowing people to swtich from loser side to winning side, or in some cases, MAYBE join friends on other side, but if that is the reason, you need to only change once, then the pirde kicks in again with your friends.

4. Offer a conversion of gold to In-Game shop currency much like GW2 [but do not do the reverse, as this enables a pay-to-win environment] does to continue to combat Gold Sellers. This allows people to buy stuff from the store without sinking in real-life cash

Since i totally disagree on the "store" concept, the F2P concept, i wont elaborate here, self-explanatory.

5. Any new races that becomes available after the game releases into the in-game shop as well.

Once again, i prefer to pay a sub based game and have access to everything that the game has to offer, than having to pay for everything added to the game.

6. Optional in game subscriptions for reduced price in-game currency as well as veteran rewards for long-term subscribers – special cosmetic housing items, ect.

Once again, same arguments stated earlier

I know people may look at this list and go, “Ewww, I HATE in-game shops. PERIOD!” But, please, look at what you’re gaining. You get consistent access to a game you’ve bought and paid for. You’re still on a equal playing field with everyone else. Gone would be the days of losing that character you played for so long, all because you’re done sinking money you’ve paid for a game ten times over. Please take my suggestions into consideration as you continue planning out the foundation of CU.

Having a sub based game also puts everyone equal, with EVERYTHING the game as to offer, even better, i think having to rely on shops exactly does the opposite...the ones with more money coulad have advantages of some sorts over less fortunate players.

So...Thanks but no thanks.

AS much as i want CU to come out, i'd never play it if it was F2P with in game store, or rather, i wouldnt play if didnt have a monthly sub fee.

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Originally posted by Tuktz

I don't get why people act like $15 a month is the end of the world anyway. I've had 4 active subs at a time going on games, and don't sweat. I'm not rich by any means either. I'm fresh out of college lol.

When I go to see a new film with my fiance, we spend about $20's on movie tickets and another $15 on popcorn and a drink. That's for two and a half hours of entertainment at most. $15 for unlimited play for an entire month is ridiculously cheap entertainment.

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Originally posted by FearumWhy do you care if there are so many great (sarcasm) F2P games out there for you already? Do you just want another casual game to hop into every once in awhile with the only reason to play is to buy the fluffy santa hat from the cash shop

I didn't say that there were, did I? I'm asking for a B2P model. No reason to be rude.

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What business model (i.e., free-to-play, buy to play, subscription) are you looking at for this game?

Multi-tiered subscription with no free-to-play option but with (maybe) some cosmetic items for housing. I think F2P and buy-to-play have their places, but we are trying to create a very niche-oriented MMORPG that won't benefit from using those models. I'd rather have 30K people paying and playing monthly than hundreds of thousands playing for free and hope to convert 5%. This game is geared to doing one thing spectacularly, and that one thing is RvR. I believe there is a core group of players who have been waiting for this type of game, and our Kickstarter campaign will either prove or disprove this notion.

See he don't want the freeloaders and the leechers in his reinvention of Camelot... The game can not be B2P either because he knows he is catering to a niche audience... B2P games need to sell about 1 million units in order to be sustainable long term... maybe less for an independant developer. But this is not necessary.... Succes for him as stated above is 30k subs which is a very attainable and realistic goal for a game of this type.

So no... the business model you are asking for is just not going to happen, nor does he want it... Mark Jacobs is one of the last bastions who truly believes in the subscription model and he will be a success (at least a niche success) with his project.

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Originally posted by Sketchit

Mark Jacobs and City State Entertainment:

Please rethink the archaic idea of requiring people to pay a monthly fee to log on and play the game. We are living in a time where money is tight all around, and there are a lot of gamers that are fed up with the idea of paying for the Box Price of a game, and on top of that, paying a monthly fee every single month in order to login and play a game.

I will take World of Warcraft’s model as an example. I had bought most of the game’s expansions, and paid the monthly fee for the game for several years. I had invested heavily into a character, and spent a lot of time revolved around the game. The sad part is that at the end of the month, you had as much right to play as somebody else who is just starting to play the game. It did not matter if you invested hundreds of dollars into the game – as soon as you stopped forking over cash, you lost ALL access to what you so heavily invested in already.

Many MMORPGers use MMORPGs as a hobby. I know video games are indeed a large hobby of mine. A hobby is something you invest in. Could you imagine any other hobby where if you stopping shelling out money, somebody swooped down and took away everything you had put into it already? I cannot. I do recognize that a business needs money in order to continuously provide a service. This is not a charity, and I understand that completely. Hopefully, however, the developers and other players can understand my reasoning as well. Business models that are not flexible are a thing of the past. I’m not crying for CSE to make Camelot Unchained into a F2P game, but there should be some common ground here.

I have a possible solution to this problem.

A box price with no subscription fee.

In-Game shop that sells cosmetic items only. Look how successful League of Legends is – and they have no box price whatsoever.

If you want to change to a different realm/server more than once, perhaps also charge as well.

Offer a conversion of gold to In-Game shop currency much like GW2 [but do not do the reverse, as this enables a pay-to-win environment] does to continue to combat Gold Sellers. This allows people to buy stuff from the store without sinking in real-life cash

Any new races that becomes available after the game releases into the in-game shop as well.

Optional in game subscriptions for reduced price for in-game shop currency as well as veteran rewards for long-term subscribers – special cosmetic housing items, ect.

I know people may look at this list and go, “Ewww, I HATE in-game shops. PERIOD!” But, please, look at what you’re gaining. You get consistent access to a game you’ve bought and paid for. You’re still on a equal playing field with everyone else. Gone would be the days of losing that character you played for so long, all because you’re done sinking money you’ve paid for a game ten times over. Please take my suggestions into consideration as you continue planning out the foundation of CU.

You do understand that CU is being developed by a small indie team right? Developing cash shop items with a small team like that is not going to go well. You do also realize that this game is going to have a multi-tier subscription model right and it is not going to cost you $15 per month, I think you should stop being cheap.

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Originally posted by moguy2

All I see in your posts is you disagreeing with people and firing back at them. If you wanted a fight why not just step out in the street and hit some one? To me, all you look like, is some one NOT wanting peoples input but wanting people to agree with what you said.

Oh and by the way, this game is YEARS AWAY. Lol lets get our panties in an uproar NOW.

I feel the need to respond to people who talk to me. I'm sorry if that concept is foreign. I want to stand by my decision and defend it, and speak my logic behind it. I'm not insulting others, I'm defending my point of view. I didn't come here to fight, a lot of my replies are me saying that... as my post clearly states, I'm not asking for a f2p game.

I know its odd, everyone is agaisnt me, I should do what many others do and run and hide.

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Originally posted by Sketchit

So, you'd rather, after sinking 500 dollars into a game over the years for expansions, monthly fees, ect, be cut off from the game - cold turkey, for not paying for a month, rather than pay a one time fee, and always have access to the game - with the option for paying for new races that come out, or a cosmetic item. Even if the playing field is the same?

If i remeber it correctly, If I stop paying my gym pass now I wont be allowed to go there again, even after i payed around 3000 for it already in past few years. And yea, I am okey with it. I see P2P subscription as fee for using their servers, maintanance and all. What is wrong with that?

B2P/F2P games focus A LOT on creating new cash shop items so they make money because cash shop is their MAIN source of income... sad, but true

P2P games have to focus on content, server issues, etc to retain its players. because their main source of income is subscription, not microtransaction.

MMORPGs are created/developed only to make money for developers/investors .. p2p give developers a lot more reasons to focus on content/game/servers than f2p/b2p games.