Linus Torvalds: “Microsoft hatred is a disease”

Linus Torvalds is as opinionated as the next guy but his most recent statement …

Last week, Microsoft contributed Hyper-V drivers to the Linux kernel in order to improve the performance of running virtualized Linux guests in a Windows host environment. Furthermore, Microsoft opened its Linux Hyper-V drivers under the GPL. There was a lot of controversy within the OSS community about Microsoft's motives and opinions varied tremendously. Some thought Microsoft was finally changing its ways and others suggested the whole thing was all a marketing ploy to sell more licenses of the Hyper-V virtualization solution.

Nevertheless, one person's opinion on the matter is worth quoting. Linus Torvalds, the man who initiated the development of the Linux kernel, hasn't yet looked at the code but did give an interesting statement to Linux Mag:

I'm a big believer in "technology over politics". I don't care who it comes from, as long as there are solid reasons for the code, and as long as we don't have to worry about licensing etc issues. I may make jokes about Microsoft at times, but at the same time, I think the Microsoft hatred is a disease. I believe in open development, and that very much involves not just making the source open, but also not shutting other people and companies out. There are 'extremists' in the free software world, but that's one major reason why I don't call what I do 'free software' any more. I don't want to be associated with the people for whom it's about exclusion and hatred.

Some will agree with his statement, others won't. Regardless of what side you're on, it should be obvious that he outlines his argument quite effectively. What are your thoughts?

94 Reader Comments

People contribute to open source for all sorts of reasons, mostly non-altruistic. Why should MS be any different? If the code is good, or useful, fold it in. If it isn't, don't or make it an optional part of the build.

Most commercial open source contribtions are in the form of a quid pro quo, anyways.

I think people spend too much brainpower in hating MS. I don't love them all the time, but they made computing far easier than was the POS way beforehand. Things were easy for a while, and I like them when they're good, dislike what they do when it's bad. I dropped Vista for Linux and I'll possibly go back when the product is better (7, 8, whatever).

I don't have the time or energy to hate a company that doesn't care about me. I just want to use my damn computer.

I have always appreciated Microsoft's products and Bill Gates as a public figure. In a world full of Bobby Koticks and other "wink-and-the-gun" executive slime, Bill Gates strikes me as a down-to-earth, intelligent "techy" type who happens to have a nose for business, too.

I even think that Microsoft has taken the high road with a lot of its advertising.

After reading a lot of tech blogs and being an Ars regular, I have come to depend on the violent outbreaks of vitriol that ensue whenever a new Microsoft product is announced or another software vulnerability is disclosed... as a source of entertainment. I know this will just spawn more of it, but here it goes: There’s a lot of people in the world that want to crucify Bill Gates and suck Steve Job’s dick.

RMS knows Linus' opinions, and doesn't care. All RMS cares about is "freedom" from DRM, restrictions, software patents and other crap, to the extreme, and will never sacrifice his ideals for market share. However, some ideals, like having an open BIOS are impossible, but that doesn't mean for him and others it isn't worth trying.

OTOH

Linus doesn't care if DRM is in Linux, but technically DRM isn't compatible with the source being available.

Originally posted by Shudder:I think people spend too much brainpower in hating MS. I don't love them all the time, but they made computing far easier than was the POS way beforehand. Things were easy for a while, and I like them when they're good, dislike what they do when it's bad. I dropped Vista for Linux and I'll possibly go back when the product is better (7, 8, whatever).

I don't have the time or energy to hate a company that doesn't care about me. I just want to use my damn computer.

People tend to spend a whole lot of time raging against something, the advantage about them raging against Microsoft is that neither Microsoft or anyone else cares

I wouldn't expect Microsoft to contributing to the kernel without some reason, whether trying to buy good will points or business savvy reasons. Does anyone really think Google spends a fortune on open source products because they love us that much?

Originally posted by Dunlavy:There’s a lot of people in the world that want to crucify Bill Gates and suck Steve Job’s dick.

True. The sad thing is that the MS-haters are misguided. They think they're promoting some beautiful, open white revolution against 'the man'. In actuality, they're promoting a company that treats its employees like shit, thinks very little of its customers (rude comments, "you'll like what we give you", rapes them for upgrades (that usually cost 5x what they should). One day, when they're hung upside down inside a locked white box whilst simultaneously having every cent they have shaken out of them... maybe they'll realize their mistake.

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I even think that Microsoft has taken the high road with a lot of its advertising.

This is something nobody can argue. Until the recent round (laptop hunters, etc) Microsoft completely took the high road, advertising products solely on their features/merit. Apple advertising is usually based on flat-out lies (most of the "Get a Mac" campaign, iPhone ads, etc). This combined with their general arrogance (and that of their fans) is what keeps me from even considering their products (I've had several iPods, but got tired of them dying and switched to something better). Seems somewhat pathetic when you have to lie to people to get them to buy your product.

Linus knows where all this is headed. He may not have any love for Microsoft, but he knows that a computing world with only one player who believes exclusively in closed ecosystems is not a good one.

All operating systems have their pluses and minuses, their advantages and disadvantages, and their specialties. Let us all be friends now. (This is coming from a Windows user.)

Nonetheless, I see OS advocacy as a waste of time. A computer is a computer. An OS is an OS. They are simply tools to aid and entertain you. Although I do tilt towards Microsoft's way a lot, it is simply because their OS allows me to do what is most important in my life - playing video games.

There are TONS of people in the software/high-tech industry - and I've been in it nearly two decades now - who have lost jobs and watched brilliantly innovative companies fold and die because of MS'es heritage of predatory and blatant back-stabbing business practices. It's one thing to see history from the outside, but it's another thing once you've lived it.

If you like Microsoft, cool. Live and let live. But don't begrudge those who don't, because Microsoft earned every bit of the vitriol that's out there.

Originally posted by zee_jay:There are TONS of people in the software/high-tech industry - and I've been in it nearly two decades now - who have lost jobs and watched brilliantly innovative companies fold and die because of MS'es heritage of predatory and blatant back-stabbing business practices. It's one thing to see history from the outside, but it's another thing once you've lived it.

If you like Microsoft, cool. Live and let live. But don't begrudge those who don't, because Microsoft earned every bit of the vitriol that's out there.

That is completely true; no one should ever deny that.

But, it is capitalism at work. Microsoft deserves every penny for doing such heinous things. Are you convinced that companies like Apple or Google wouldn't do the same sorts of things that Microsoft did ten years ago?

Listen - Microsoft is just another corporation - and it's mission is to provide maximum value to its shareholders without breaking the law.

Unless you are proposing a different system of effort and reward in this world - I can't see why you would vilify Microsoft so much. Vilify the system, not its participants.

Originally posted by Dunlavy:I have always appreciated Microsoft's products and Bill Gates as a public figure. In a world full of Bobby Koticks and other "wink-and-the-gun" executive slime, Bill Gates strikes me as a down-to-earth, intelligent "techy" type who happens to have a nose for business, too.

I even think that Microsoft has taken the high road with a lot of its advertising.

After reading a lot of tech blogs and being an Ars regular, I have come to depend on the violent outbreaks of vitriol that ensue whenever a new Microsoft product is announced or another software vulnerability is disclosed... as a source of entertainment. I know this will just spawn more of it, but here it goes: There’s a lot of people in the world that want to crucify Bill Gates and suck Steve Job’s dick.

Originally posted by Dunlavy:I have always appreciated Microsoft's products and Bill Gates as a public figure. In a world full of Bobby Koticks and other "wink-and-the-gun" executive slime, Bill Gates strikes me as a down-to-earth, intelligent "techy" type who happens to have a nose for business, too.

I even think that Microsoft has taken the high road with a lot of its advertising.

After reading a lot of tech blogs and being an Ars regular, I have come to depend on the violent outbreaks of vitriol that ensue whenever a new Microsoft product is announced or another software vulnerability is disclosed... as a source of entertainment. I know this will just spawn more of it, but here it goes: There’s a lot of people in the world that want to crucify Bill Gates and suck Steve Job’s dick.

Apple hatred is a disease, too.

Absolutely. But Apple fanboy hatred isn't. I am neutral towards Apple, but the fanboys just aggravate me! I think he means it that way, too.

Linus has been one of the more rational members of the OSS movement for a long time. Hopefully he and his crowd will outlive the Stallman FSF crowd. Too bad he dosen't fully reject the GPL and just go with the BSD license however.

My respect for Mr. Torvalds (already high) has increased. I can only hope this message trickles out and the haters recalibrate their campaigns.

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Originally posted by kittykis:I'm happy to trust them /if they earn it/. So... wait and watch.

Linus isn't asking you to trust MS, love MS, buy their product, or go door to door selling it. All he's saying is that the hate is a cancer which impedes progress. Linus went on to say:

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From this article:“I agree that it’s driven by selfish reasons, but that’s how all open source code gets written! We all “scratch our own itches”. It’s why I started Linux, it’s why I started git, and it’s why I am still involved. It’s the reason for everybody to end up in open source, to some degree.

So complaining about the fact that Microsoft picked a selfish area to work on is just silly. Of course they picked an area that helps them. That’s the point of open source - the ability to make the code better for your particular needs, whoever the ‘your’ in question happens to be.

Does anybody complain when hardware companies write drivers for the hardware they produce? No. That would be crazy. Does anybody complain when IBM funds all the POWER development, and works on enterprise features because they sell into the enterprise? No. That would be insane.

So the people who complain about Microsoft writing drivers for their own virtualization model should take a long look in the mirror and ask themselves why they are being so hypocritical.”

Originally posted by Dunlavy:There’s a lot of people in the world that want to crucify Bill Gates and suck Steve Job’s dick.

True. The sad thing is that the MS-haters are misguided.

I would argue that the Apple haters are also misguided.

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They think they're promoting some beautiful, open white revolution against 'the man'. In actuality, they're promoting a company that treats its employees like shit, thinks very little of its customers (rude comments, "you'll like what we give you", rapes them for upgrades (that usually cost 5x what they should).

OS X upgrades are $129; are you suggesting they should be $29? Most of their other software upgrades are $99, $199, or $299 for software that costs $399, $499, or $999 respectively. It's hard to argue that Apple is raping on upgrades.

And "thinks very little of its customers", do you mean that Apple intentionally targets their products for the mass market lowest common denominator, or that Apple actively insults their customers? I haven't seen anything of the latter, and Apple intentionally chose to design for the former. I don't see where that is insulting.

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One day, when they're hung upside down inside a locked white box whilst simultaneously having every cent they have shaken out of them... maybe they'll realize their mistake.

Hatred, in general, is a disease. So is arrogance and condescension.

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I even think that Microsoft has taken the high road with a lot of its advertising.

This is something nobody can argue. Until the recent round (laptop hunters, etc) Microsoft completely took the high road, advertising products solely on their features/merit.

Well, actually, you can. Microsoft hasn't taken the high road so much as they just had incompetent advertising.

The Wow is Now comes to mind. So does the Seinfeld ads. Then there are the "Mojave" experiences. I can't name a Microsoft ad that tried telling us about features. Shadow volume copy? Flip 3D? DirectX 10? Windows Forms? .NET? Windows Presentation Foundation? UAC? Those are features of Vista that actually improved security, development, and use, and not a single one of them was advertised that I can recall.

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Apple advertising is usually based on flat-out lies (most of the "Get a Mac" campaign, iPhone ads, etc).

Please elucidate. To tell a lie usually requires a truth, and an audience.

Are you saying Vista and XP don't crash? That XP doesn't have hundreds of thousands of exploits? That Macs aren't immune to PC viruses? That the iPhone apps advertised don't exist in the App Store? That the iPhone features advertised don't exist? That UAC isn't annoying? That Macs don't have Office? That iLife isn't designed for movies and videos? That Time Machine doesn't work?

Most of the ads on the Mac side actually are selling features. They do sin by omission (by not specifying versions of Windows such as Vista or XP), or by excessive simplification (that there are actually 2 or 3 Mac exploits out there), but if you think they're lying, please tell me the ad, what the lie is, and what the truth is.

For example in other threads I've already explained that the early 2006 ads against viruses were true: Macs are immune to PC viruses, which is exactly what the ads state. Later ads against Vista were also true in that Microsoft spent, respectively, $500m and $300m two separate times to advertise Vista (instead of spending that money on Vista). Of course its Microsoft's money so they have the right to do so, but it isn't false that they spent that much on advertising Vista.

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This combined with their general arrogance (and that of their fans) is what keeps me from even considering their products (I've had several iPods, but got tired of them dying and switched to something better).

You hardly seem humble yourself.

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Seems somewhat pathetic when you have to lie to people to get them to buy your product.

How can that be true? 2006 was when the first Get a Mac ads came out, and at the time Vista didn't exist. XP was the only product on sale. 2007 and Vista was barely available and XP was still the norm. 2008 and Vista was officially the only product available though if you knew which systems to buy you could still get XP. 2009 and still over 60% of the PCs out there run XP.

Every comment on viruses, trojans, and exploits made against PC are still true on XP if not on Vista. Every comment on crashes? True on both XP and Vista. Apple's only problem was omitting the statistics; which version of Windows they were poking fun of and how many people would be affected.

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Linus knows where all this is headed.

I think you're misrepresenting Linus

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He may not have any love for Microsoft, but he knows that a computing world with only one player who believes exclusively in closed ecosystems is not a good one.

He also knows that hatred is wasted if the world chooses a closed ecosystem. The world already chose that, once, with Windows. Why do you think the world is any more intelligent now than 10 years ago?

Originally posted by Dunlavy:I have always appreciated Microsoft's products and Bill Gates as a public figure. In a world full of Bobby Koticks and other "wink-and-the-gun" executive slime, Bill Gates strikes me as a down-to-earth, intelligent "techy" type who happens to have a nose for business, too.

I even think that Microsoft has taken the high road with a lot of its advertising.

After reading a lot of tech blogs and being an Ars regular, I have come to depend on the violent outbreaks of vitriol that ensue whenever a new Microsoft product is announced or another software vulnerability is disclosed... as a source of entertainment. I know this will just spawn more of it, but here it goes: There’s a lot of people in the world that want to crucify Bill Gates and suck Steve Job’s dick.

Apple hatred is a disease, too.

Absolutely. But Apple fanboy hatred isn't.

No, it's a disease too.

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I am neutral towards Apple, but the fanboys just aggravate me! I think he means it that way, too.

Replicant sounds just like an Apple fanboy, if you replace Apple for Microsoft. 20 years ago he would have been an Apple user ranting against Microsoft (because the Apple of today didn't exist). Or he sounds like a Linux fanboy, ranting against Microsoft.

Absolutely. But Apple fanboy hatred isn't. I am neutral towards Apple, but the fanboys just aggravate me! I think he means it that way, too.

I hope you realize you just responded to the biggest Apple fanboy I know of on these forums. I see they've already beaten me to the punch to this response though and they're already defending Apple to the death. Best of luck to ya.

Really. I see fanboyism in any manner to be a disease. Although it is natural (we all have our favorite bands and soda brands, right?) it clouds judgement and promotes a lot of the arrogance that we see.

The poster above me has made a point that you are the biggest Apple fanboy on this board, so point taken.

So, you would agree (since you are described as a fanboy) that fanboyism isn't a disease that promotes arrogance, conflict, and condescension?

Originally posted by XX55XX:... Microsoft deserves every penny for doing such heinous things.

Who decided that they do? Was it we the people? If so, aren't we the people also the ones who should decide instead to reward good action? Posters who are pointing out that we reward heinous action are a beginning of that.

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Are you convinced that companies like Apple or Google wouldn't do the same sorts of things that Microsoft did ten years ago?

Have they? Are they? Let's look at facts instead of mystical theories. But even if they had or are, how would that not increase the argument against such bad action? More of a bad thing is not a good thing to any logical observer.

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Listen - Microsoft is just another corporation - and it's mission is to provide maximum value to its shareholders without breaking the law.

This tiresome lie makes as much sense as insisting that a bank's mission is to fleece its account-holders. Microsoft's "mission" is to produce Microsoft software and other products -- otherwise, they are fleecing their customers. Their investors are a funding technicality of their mission.

As for "without breaking the law": ( 1 ) Microsoft has done just that, and so you accuse them out of your own mouth; ( 2 ) Who makes the law if not we the people? and so, again, posters condemning law that rewards heinous action (if indeed the laws do so -- I think you are mostly wrong to say they do) is a beginning of deciding to change. If you argue "you can't change this!" to we the changers, then you are once more being illogical.

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Unless you are proposing a different system of effort and reward in this world ... .

How about this system of reward, which I'll paraphrase from Classic-age Greece: "True reward is to exercise our talents with all the excellency we can, and with full freedom." Or how about an old American idea: We reward hard honest work and innovation.

Who decided that they do? Was it we the people? If so, aren't we the people also the ones who should decide instead to reward good action? Posters who are pointing out that we reward heinous action are a beginning of that.

Define "good action". What is "good" to you may not be "good" to Microsoft and its shareholders.

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Have they? Are they? Let's look at facts instead of mystical theories. But even if they had or are, how would that not increase the argument against such bad action? More of a bad thing is not a good thing to any logical observer.

You are right, I am simply conjecturing here. But there are many other companies who have been as aggressive as Microsoft has been and have been successful due to their aggressiveness. Look at EA, for example. Was what they did bad? Sure, in the eyes of some people. But we all do things that are ambiguous.

Originally posted by reflex-croft:Linus has been one of the more rational members of the OSS movement for a long time. Hopefully he and his crowd will outlive the Stallman FSF crowd. Too bad he dosen't fully reject the GPL and just go with the BSD license however.

Yes, because that license has certainly done them so much good. I like BSD but their license is not one that people or companies like. People want to know that their code isn't being used to make other people rich at their expense. Right or wrong, thats just the way it is at the moment.

Really. I see fanboyism in any manner to be a disease. Although it is natural (we all have our favorite bands and soda brands, right?) it clouds judgement and promotes a lot of the arrogance that we see.

The poster above me has made a point that you are the biggest Apple fanboy on this board, so point taken.

Yeah, so? We're talking about hatred, as a negative energy, is a disease. How is my boosterism related to hatred? My boosterism is related to enthusiasm.

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So, you would agree (since you are described as a fanboy) that fanboyism isn't a disease that promotes arrogance, conflict, and condescension?

It can, if you act like your preference is some kind of be-all.

And yet Apple makes no budget systems, so cannot be the solution for the budget minded. They make no gaming systems, so cannot be the solution for gamers. They make no desktop systems (workstations don't count) so they cannot be the solution for office and business use. They lock OS X, so obviously they can't serve the DIYer

So obviously if I allow it I could be arrogant, mean, and condescending.

Can you point at my posts and tell me where I have been so I may correct myself? The worst my behavior can be described as is condescending if you think I'm being patronizing, I think.

But I don't say Apple is the solution for everyone. Some people can't afford it; I know I can't buy everything they make, as much as I would like to, so even I can't afford it. I don't have an AppleTV or an Airport Extreme or a Time Capsule or a MacBook, or whatnot. My only Apple devices are an iMac, iBook, iPhone, and iPod.

Very well. You have explained yourself adequately here. I see your point, and I will take it at face value.

And, as for the other debater:

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Funny man.

A rapist may like raping, but that doesn't mean he likes to be raped.

Surely this isn't over your head?

Yes, I am very funny, am I?

You see, "rape" is not the same as "getting raped". They are completely different actions. Some like getting raped, while others like raping other people. That may explain why a lot of people have rape fantasies. I am not one of them, mind you.

I'll leave the argument at that, since it is going nowhere. Clearly, we both have different opinions of what is good and what is bad.