It seems that whenever somebody attacks the quality of this series from a technical standpoint, your feathers all get ruffled, and you feel the need to "debate" these somewhat technical issues or down vote posts that include them. While that's all fair and dandy, given that most of this site supports this nonsensical behavior, it irks me to no end. I feel like it's impossible to down-talk Noah Maxwell or even Adam Rosner at all without everybody being all over his dick. Once I criticized the story line element of focusing on a specific date for months and months while he released pieces of it at a time. Nimbus/Adam responded to my post here - not addressing the issue of plot error that I was discussing - but rather attacking me for not "understanding" because I supposedly didn't watch "the twitter or the livestream or all the other work" he had done, though I had. I wasn't claiming it didn't make sense, I just claimed it was not a strong maneuver from a story telling aspect, and didn't understand why the hype and focus. He then apologized, which was nice, though he still didn't admit any fault. The fans (granted, not all of them, but a vast majority of them - both here and on other media ports) are the same way. They're quick to attack somebody without basis, they cannot see any wrong doing at all throughout the series, or the character, or the person, they just consume. It's disgusting. Example, on the newest video, ShadowTurtleInc posted a response - claiming it was "a little stretched out" - verdict: immediately down voted. How dare they agree with king Rosner's choices!? Meanwhile, all somebody has to say is "it was good" and they get praised for it. That's how it reads to me anyways. I commented on Milo's Tape, breaking down my beef with some of the aspects of it, and granted - it was a bit excessive, I felt like they were things that needed to be said. I'm fine with people not agreeing with it, but it seems childish to put your hands over your ears and say "I can't hear you" while somebody is trying to discuss things that could be improved with a web series that has so much potential. That's the heartbreaking thing of it all - with Adam's video editing ability, it's a shame that the series isn't better than it is. I'm not certain if it's only a specific age group within the fan base, so I'm sorry if I've lumped any of you into this clique of Tribehards, but it's just silly to me. The entire antithesis to discussing the quality would be - New video comes out - everybody just says "wow" or "good" - nothing is gained, nothing is debated, nothing is critiqued. Is that what we want this website to become? I don't notice the same thing from the other major video trailheads. If somebody talks smack about Jay as a character, people generally agree, if they discuss how hard to follow EMH is after the fact - given how multi media it is, the fandom generally goes "uh, yeah, it's rough, you kinda had to be there for the minecraft map" or whatever else, but TribeTwelve is some untouchable entity.

Wait what? o.OOh well, of course a series can be discussed and it´s good to critisize something or some aspects when you don´t like it, but what did you expect? That everyone directly agrees with you and that Adam completely rewrites and redoes his series to suit your personal likings? Just like you have the right to critisize it, others do have the right to like what they see. But i see where you are coming from, this side clearly needs more discussion again, especially in the TT part.

I would chalk this up to fandumb as well. Most of the criticisms I've seen you post are valid, even if I don't agree with them. That being said, defending a series from criticism is fine as long as it's done for better reasons than "how dare you criticize this".(Also, I realize how dumb my "this is good" post was. Next time I'm too tired to think of anything, I'll just not post.)

Peppercorn no that´s not the right way, if you like something you can still say that you like it. The same goes for not liking a thing.You can later still edit the post to add more things why you liked/not liked it.

Pep, you can totally still just say that you like a thing, that's not what I'm saying at all. I was comparing how much praise that sort of thing generally gets than when somebody disagrees with a TT entry. I'm not expecting Adam Rosner to fix the series based off of my opinions, it's his to do with as he pleases, and I'm not expecting everybody to side with me. Maybe somebody though? Sometimes? Also, this whole issue of down-voting is silly, it's like being rewarded for agreeing with the masses, and being punished for speaking your mind. Though I don't really get the point of win votes in general. I'll just chalk all this to fandumb, as the many posters here have said. I really appreciate the lack of any sort of all-out-war TT-response like I was anticipating. Thank you all.

To me, there is a spectrum of politeness that comes when giving a critique of a series work, and from what I saw of your opinion in the Milo tape was that it seemed you were expecting almost utmost perfection and gave an entirely negative review that was unnecessarily a bit rude. It's fine to have criticism of something (so long as there's suggestions to help make it better that go along with it) but to me it felt like you had some sort of personal grudge instead of trying to point out what was wrong. There's not a lot of criticism of Tribe Twelve because it is indeed a great series, but I will admit some of what you and others have said has had me look out for bad points of the series (even though they're minor) such as Noah's way of speaking that seems overacted at times and how the older members of his family seem to have some sort of strange habit to wave their hands around when speaking (I was laughing when Mary Asher did this). But just because blood didn't come out of a gunshot wound entirely realistically, Milo's voice sounds more like a chronic smoker than a slit throat, or a gunshot being just slightly unrealistic (DarkHarvest is a lot worse, it has shotgun sounds for pistols and submachine guns -_-) doesn't make the entry bad and cause it to be a problem that needs dire improvement. In regards to winvotes, they're just something that can help in gauging what other's think and they don't punish or reward anyone either way, so it's not something to worry much about.

I may as well address it here, as it has come up multiple times. The Win-Point system is, the way I look at it, kind of like Reddit's Upvote-Downvote system. It's there not to reward or punish, more of a way for users to show there appreciation or dislike of a certain topic or post that someone has made. It in no way count toward any sort of reward at the end of the day, it's merely there to show appreciation or lack thereof of a certain topic or post, nothing more and nothing less.

If you do have a particular grievance against the Win-Point system, do PM me. I will listen to what is being said and take it into consideration. After all, this is your site as well, and I ALWAYS value, appreciate, and encourage feedback and suggestions.

I may as well address it here, as it has come up multiple times. The Win-Point system is, the way I look at it, kind of like Reddit's Upvote-Downvote system. It's there not to reward or punish, more of a way for users to show there appreciation or dislike of a certain topic or post that someone has made. It in no way count toward any sort of reward at the end of the day, it's merely there to show appreciation or lack thereof of a certain topic or post, nothing more and nothing less.

If you do have a particular grievance against the Win-Point system, do PM me. I will listen to what is being said and take it into consideration. After all, this is your site as well, and I ALWAYS value, appreciate, and encourage feedback and suggestions.

I was gonna write something similar to this but it seems Mr. Zombie has covered pretty much all of my ramblings… I guess I wasn't the only one! And he even covered my post that kind of got an (in my opinion) unfair response… well there ya go

I will admit some of what you and others have said has had me look out for bad points of the series (even though they're minor) such as Noah's way of speaking that seems overacted at times and how the older members of his family seem to have some sort of strange habit to wave their hands around when speaking (I was laughing when Mary Asher did this). But just because blood didn't come out of a gunshot wound entirely realistically, Milo's voice sounds more like a chronic smoker than a slit throat, or a gunshot being just slightly unrealistic (DarkHarvest is a lot worse, it has shotgun sounds for pistols and submachine guns -_-) doesn't make the entry bad and cause it to be a problem that needs dire improvement.

I respect your opinions on the matter, though here's my beef with what you just said.

1) You had to put down a smaller series to make TT look better. Given that I am not a professional at gunshot sounds, the loud booms that happen when the DarkHarvest boys are being shot at does not in any way ruin immersion for me.

2) You missed the point entirely! Good job! You basically took my criteria for what makes an entry bad, and said "well NUH-UH! IT'S GREAT!" The issue for me is that if something is bad enough that I'm laughing at it because of numerous Out Of Game reasons, it's not a good entry. Good entries have me there, in the series, nervous with the protag, viewing the world through their eyes, or rather, their camera's eye. The thing about DarkHarvest, granted it's kind of a late-game series, is that I actually feel bad for the main characters when bad shit happens to them because they're like-able, they address real issues, and OOG their acting is realistic. EverymanHYBRID, as disjointed as it is, also has the same thing going for him. Who doesn't feel bad for Vinny in the EMH fandom right now? However, Noah's character doesn't evoke the same emotional response at all. He's not like-able, nor intelligent (for a college student) and quickly hostile. Adam Rosner's acting makes MH Jay's decision making seem realistic. He pulled the unreliable narrator card far to early in the series - unlike Marble Hornets who waited for their fans to get towards the end, then made them question everything they had seen up to that point. Also, Noah's becoming a God, why should anything even worry him anymore? I'm sorry that our views have to be so different, and as I said before I respect that you don't see things as I do, but can you at least see why these things irk me so?

I know that this series is free. I'm aware that Adam Rosner is making it out of the goodness of his heart. For that I am grateful. I know that independent film-making has its limitations. I'd never dis a series for being limited like that. I will however continue to watch all the series that I have been watching, and practically be forced to compare them to each other, and hold them to the same standards, because what else can I compare them to?

I will admit some of what you and others have said has had me look out for bad points of the series (even though they're minor) such as Noah's way of speaking that seems overacted at times and how the older members of his family seem to have some sort of strange habit to wave their hands around when speaking (I was laughing when Mary Asher did this). But just because blood didn't come out of a gunshot wound entirely realistically, Milo's voice sounds more like a chronic smoker than a slit throat, or a gunshot being just slightly unrealistic (DarkHarvest is a lot worse, it has shotgun sounds for pistols and submachine guns -_-) doesn't make the entry bad and cause it to be a problem that needs dire improvement.

I respect your opinions on the matter, though here's my beef with what you just said.

1) You had to put down a smaller series to make TT look better. Given that I am not a professional at gunshot sounds, the loud booms that happen when the DarkHarvest boys are being shot at does not in any way ruin immersion for me.

2) You missed the point entirely! Good job! You basically took my criteria for what makes an entry bad, and said "well NUH-UH! IT'S GREAT!" The issue for me is that if something is bad enough that I'm laughing at it because of numerous Out Of Game reasons, it's not a good entry. Good entries have me there, in the series, nervous with the protag, viewing the world through their eyes, or rather, their camera's eye. The thing about DarkHarvest, granted it's kind of a late-game series, is that I actually feel bad for the main characters when bad shit happens to them because they're like-able, they address real issues, and OOG their acting is realistic. EverymanHYBRID, as disjointed as it is, also has the same thing going for him. Who doesn't feel bad for Vinny in the EMH fandom right now? However, Noah's character doesn't evoke the same emotional response at all. He's not like-able, nor intelligent (for a college student) and quickly hostile. Adam Rosner's acting makes MH Jay's decision making seem realistic. He pulled the unreliable narrator card far to early in the series - unlike Marble Hornets who waited for their fans to get towards the end, then made them question everything they had seen up to that point. Also, Noah's becoming a God, why should anything even worry him anymore? I'm sorry that our views have to be so different, and as I said before I respect that you don't see things as I do, but can you at least see why these things irk me so?

I know that this series is free. I'm aware that Adam Rosner is making it out of the goodness of his heart. For that I am grateful. I know that independent film-making has its limitations. I'd never dis a series for being limited like that. I will however continue to watch all the series that I have been watching, and practically be forced to compare them to each other, and hold them to the same standards, because what else can I compare them to?

1. I'm not putting down any series, I love DarkHarvest just as much as I do TribeTwelve and don't consider it smaller at all. I was using them as an example to show that TribeTwelve isn't as bad when it comes to some aspects in comparison to other series that are just as big and successful as TribeTwelve, but it seems me and you don't have the same opinion of DarkHarvest of just how big it is. Although I also assumed that since you seem to know the realism of gunshot wounds you'd also know other realistic things about guns.

2. Maybe perhaps we're missing the point of each other's posts. I pointed out, and agreed of there being, some of the negative points of the series but didn't think they were as severe as you make them out to be. It's possible that Adam Rosner is purposely making specific aspects laughable for comedic relief. Not every protagonist has to be fearful of everything going on or have horrible occurrences happen despite that seeming to be common in Slender-series. Noah is not always a likable character but I enjoy watching him do what he does, similar to how I hate what Trevor Philips does in Grand Theft Auto 5 but I still enjoy playing as him. I think Vinny has been sitting on his ass for two or three years and needs to do something instead of acting like a wimp to HABIT and hiding in a corner for so long, so I don't feel sorry for him; all of his friends are dead and it doesn't seem he has any family left (other than Evan who isn't even himself most of the time), so what does he have to lose? Noah is quite a unique character in the Slenderverse. While many can identify with the fear that other protagonists have, I feel it'd be more realistic to have more protagonists be angry and frustrated at their situation and lash out (Marble Hornets seems to be the only series that does this which may be a result of Slendersickness so I'm not sure it counts; I suppose Alex from DarkHarvest is the only other example?). In regards to unreliable narrators, to me that makes the series more unpredictable to have an unreliable narrator so soon instead of later because with the latter it allows for retcons to be made and can add to confusion, and Marble Hornets is already really damn confusing when trying to analyze it. Noah's credibility for having to worry really depends on what your opinion on fate and predetermined destiny is, and Firebrand is trying to change Noah's fate anyways so we don't know what can change or still happen; if his life isn't on a set path he can still die and not become Firebrand.

I can respect having a critical view, but I guess I don't understand why you're being so nitpicky. Although sometimes I also like to debate whenever I have differing opinions compared to others.

Adam on Tumblr is seemingly a nice guy, who responds to criticism well, as I commented a while back on the Firebrand's appearance in "Extraordinary Circumstances" and he took it into account. The problem was, apparently I wasn't polite enough giving constructive criticism and two fuckers kept anon-ing my ask box telling me to fuck off, and that I didn't know anything about making a series or acting. (This is ironic, considering I am in my fourth year of high school theatre and my sixth year of theatre overall.) I'll say it again. FANDUMB.

Adam on Tumblr is seemingly a nice guy, who responds to criticism well

Spoiler:

Nimbus wrote:

xyzombie wrote:

Nimbus wrote:

xyzombie wrote:

My concern was that production wise; why after 4 months there wasn't any other sort of update, why it was decided from a directional standpoint to focus on that date again.

Really? Really? You think that nothing has happened during the four months since the last video? Have you even looked at the twitter? Watched the Stickam live streams? The Twitpics? Formspring questions? The shit I worked my ass off to produce while I was on video hiatus?

No. You probably didn't.A lot happened, you're just not looking hard enough. And it's not hard to look at all. ...aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaand this is exactly why I have to make a recap video.

Perhaps I should have phrased all this more specifically. My only concern is the lack of Youtube entries. I'm voicing a public ideal, not some grudge against this show that everyone seems to force into my mouth if I say a single thing that isn't absolutely praising it. Am I not allowed to look at the gap of time between Youtube entries, re-watch them in order, and then say "hey, it's been 6 months and 8 days since November 11th, and we're still huddled around that date"? I'm aware important shit went down here, and I'm not discounting that at all. I'm not even saying that you didn't work hard during your youtube hiatus, and don't just assume that I haven't been paying attention to Stickam or Twitter, I wasn't saying that you haven't been active. Perhaps I'll stop commenting on the series and whatever if anything I say will just be shot down not only by its fans but by its creator. It's like American Idol in here, you have a judge give a comment that isn't in the highest of praises and the audience boos. I suppose I'll just take everything as being the absolute best and never question it, for if I do, I'll be shunned or yelled at.

Alright, I thought you were totally ignorant of the other stuff, because shockingly a ton of people out there are. Ignorance really bothers me, so when I see it I tend to be vocal and comment on it. But, since that wasn't the case here at all, sorry for that.

I guess after some prodding and prying, he responds well to criticism. Looking back, this entire thread has kind of been an ongoing issue, as the above thread was from March 19, 2012.

I feel that the reason why this happens is because Adam interacts with his fans a great amount, so many of his fans feel like they have a personal connection with him, thus defending his work through that same connection.

I will admit some of what you and others have said has had me look out for bad points of the series (even though they're minor) such as Noah's way of speaking that seems overacted at times and how the older members of his family seem to have some sort of strange habit to wave their hands around when speaking (I was laughing when Mary Asher did this). But just because blood didn't come out of a gunshot wound entirely realistically, Milo's voice sounds more like a chronic smoker than a slit throat, or a gunshot being just slightly unrealistic (DarkHarvest is a lot worse, it has shotgun sounds for pistols and submachine guns -_-) doesn't make the entry bad and cause it to be a problem that needs dire improvement.

I respect your opinions on the matter, though here's my beef with what you just said.

1) You had to put down a smaller series to make TT look better. Given that I am not a professional at gunshot sounds, the loud booms that happen when the DarkHarvest boys are being shot at does not in any way ruin immersion for me.

2) You missed the point entirely! Good job! You basically took my criteria for what makes an entry bad, and said "well NUH-UH! IT'S GREAT!" The issue for me is that if something is bad enough that I'm laughing at it because of numerous Out Of Game reasons, it's not a good entry. Good entries have me there, in the series, nervous with the protag, viewing the world through their eyes, or rather, their camera's eye. The thing about DarkHarvest, granted it's kind of a late-game series, is that I actually feel bad for the main characters when bad shit happens to them because they're like-able, they address real issues, and OOG their acting is realistic. EverymanHYBRID, as disjointed as it is, also has the same thing going for him. Who doesn't feel bad for Vinny in the EMH fandom right now? However, Noah's character doesn't evoke the same emotional response at all. He's not like-able, nor intelligent (for a college student) and quickly hostile. Adam Rosner's acting makes MH Jay's decision making seem realistic. He pulled the unreliable narrator card far to early in the series - unlike Marble Hornets who waited for their fans to get towards the end, then made them question everything they had seen up to that point. Also, Noah's becoming a God, why should anything even worry him anymore? I'm sorry that our views have to be so different, and as I said before I respect that you don't see things as I do, but can you at least see why these things irk me so?

I know that this series is free. I'm aware that Adam Rosner is making it out of the goodness of his heart. For that I am grateful. I know that independent film-making has its limitations. I'd never dis a series for being limited like that. I will however continue to watch all the series that I have been watching, and practically be forced to compare them to each other, and hold them to the same standards, because what else can I compare them to?

1. I'm not putting down any series, I love DarkHarvest just as much as I do TribeTwelve and don't consider it smaller at all. I was using them as an example to show that TribeTwelve isn't as bad when it comes to some aspects in comparison to other series that are just as big and successful as TribeTwelve, but it seems me and you don't have the same opinion of DarkHarvest of just how big it is. Although I also assumed that since you seem to know the realism of gunshot wounds you'd also know other realistic things about guns.

2. Maybe perhaps we're missing the point of each other's posts. I pointed out, and agreed of there being, some of the negative points of the series but didn't think they were as severe as you make them out to be. It's possible that Adam Rosner is purposely making specific aspects laughable for comedic relief. Not every protagonist has to be fearful of everything going on or have horrible occurrences happen despite that seeming to be common in Slender-series. Noah is not always a likable character but I enjoy watching him do what he does, similar to how I hate what Trevor Philips does in Grand Theft Auto 5 but I still enjoy playing as him. I think Vinny has been sitting on his ass for two or three years and needs to do something instead of acting like a wimp to HABIT and hiding in a corner for so long, so I don't feel sorry for him; all of his friends are dead and it doesn't seem he has any family left (other than Evan who isn't even himself most of the time), so what does he have to lose? Noah is quite a unique character in the Slenderverse. While many can identify with the fear that other protagonists have, I feel it'd be more realistic to have more protagonists be angry and frustrated at their situation and lash out (Marble Hornets seems to be the only series that does this which may be a result of Slendersickness so I'm not sure it counts; I suppose Alex from DarkHarvest is the only other example?). In regards to unreliable narrators, to me that makes the series more unpredictable to have an unreliable narrator so soon instead of later because with the latter it allows for retcons to be made and can add to confusion, and Marble Hornets is already really damn confusing when trying to analyze it. Noah's credibility for having to worry really depends on what your opinion on fate and predetermined destiny is, and Firebrand is trying to change Noah's fate anyways so we don't know what can change or still happen; if his life isn't on a set path he can still die and not become Firebrand.

I can respect having a critical view, but I guess I don't understand why you're being so nitpicky. Although sometimes I also like to debate whenever I have differing opinions compared to others.

Hi, Justin. I'm John, and I feel like there's a lot we need to talk about. Let's debate, yeah?

This is very long sorry :

1. The size of DarkHarvest00 isn't an opinion, it's a fact. It's still a relatively small series compared to TribeTwelve (and especially compared to Marble Hornets). And just to be accurate in this, let's throw some numbers out here. MH's Youtube channel has 354,830 subscribers as I type this, and it's first video has 3,153,912 views. That gives us a baseline of what can be called a massively popular series. In terms of size, they're Box Office kind of level. TribeTwelve has 39,373 subcribers as I type and 228,036 views on it's first video. Compared to MH, that's a big difference - but we can expect that jump because TT isn't Box Office Level. However, it's still "big". It's part of the Big Three in terms of series discussed. Now, compared to TT, DarkHarvest is incredibly small. 16,081 subscribers and 84,377 views on it's first video is a very similar jump downward. If TribeTwelve is a "big" series, and DarkHarvest has 23,292 less subscribers than TT and 143,659 less views on the first video, then DarkHarvest cannot be a big series. It's not an opinion. (Keep in mind these numbers may change on small scale, but the large scale comparisons should not change. Also keep in mind it is not the smallest series, but that's also not what was brought up.)

Also, keeping on your Part 1, you did actually put DH down. By making anything look less in order to elevate something else, you are "putting down" whatever you made look less. That's the definition. You can compare without making something less than, but "DarkHarvest is a lot worse, it has shotgun sounds for pistols and submachine guns -_-" is not that.

2. Second, lemme address this quote here: "Although I also assumed that since you seem to know the realism of gunshot wounds you'd also know other realistic things about guns." This is not a true statement. Someone can know a lot about guns and how guns work, and know nothing about how the human body reacts to such, and vice versa. Saying you must know about both in tandem is like saying an Actor who is trained in Acting must also know and understand how to build props and sew clothing. (And coming from someone who's in the Theatre Major in college, most acting majors don't remember a thing from their sewing and props classes.) Its not that its not a thing, knowing about both, but assuming, well, you know the old adage, "makes an ass out of u and me".

The other thing about this is that you're addressing a moment that requires exact gun knowledge (the DarkHavest gunshots) in comparison to a moment that a small child could realize looked off (the blood from the gunshot wound). One requires the knowledge of 1. what a shotgun sounds like, 2. what a machine gun sounds like, and also requires rewatching the moment several times because the first few get you too much into the moment to really care what the guns sound like because Chris and Alex were getting shot at. Even with a minor knowledge of guns and firearms (I can pick out a Taurus particularly quickly, if that gives you any credentials) I honestly couldn't tell the difference between one bang and another, mostly because I didn't care because Chris and Alex were getting shot at and that is a tiny bit more important, I believe, than knowing exactly what gun sound was just made. The other requires the knowledge of what looks fake and what does not. Most people have a general taste in how blood should look, because most people go to the movies and in most movies now adays someone gets shot. Media is literally training the currently movie-going generation into being better critics about their realism in things that require realism, because it moves the market forward and gives movie-makers something to strive for. Most days, it's generally accepted that blood is a red color, typically dark (especially in dark settings) and conforms to the shape of the clothing underneath is as it spreads. The specific TT scene had blood that was a candy red (in a room without any real lighting and only a blue ambient lighting from outside which would have actually made blood even darker because it's blue) and the spot stayed a perfect circle shape over a part of the body that couldn't hold a perfect circle if it tried. It's her back and she's on her side. There is no blood running in direction of gravity, and it spreads eventually in all directions, even ignoring folds in her clothing. Ignoring gravity trumps whether or not a gunshot is the correct sound to the correct gun in terms of what's worse.

The other thing about it isn't even the quality - it's requoting what xyzombie said. Differing gunshots do not ruin the immersion, or how into the moment you are. It still sounds like gunshots and the moment is still just as tense no matter what specific guns are used. However, defying gravity is a different story - you either need to have established physics laws that defy such or need to be in the musical Wicked for defying gravity to not remove a person from the story and ruin the immersion. And that's the point he made originally. (For those unaware, Defying Gravity is a musical number from Wicked.)

3. On to Part Two! I don't think I need to explain how severe the mistakes in TribeTwelve actually are, contrary to what you say (if I do, please see the previous paragraph again because ignoring gravity is pretty severe honestly). However, I do think I need to address three writing conventions you bring up. 1, Comic Relief, 2, Unique Characters and Fear in Human Beings, and 3, Unreliable Narrators.

Comic Relief: Comic Relief is defined as "comic episodes in a dramatic or literary work that offset more serious sections" according to Google Definitions. The key term here is offset - comic moments are applied in a way after a dramatic scene to release some of the tension. Usually, it's placed so those crying can halt the tears, giving them an easy way to gently remove themselves from their catharsis - which is a release of emotional stress - or it's placed to provide catharsis, as laughter after a tense scene can release the same emotional stress. Where it isn't required is in scenes were tension needs to remain high - this is why you usually don't see much comic relief in the last half-hour of a movie, as they need to keep the stakes high and a giggle can make than all come crashing down. You say "It's possible that Adam Rosner is purposely making specific aspects laughable for comedic relief" but the scenes that get referenced as "so bad they're laughable" usually are not in the place for comic relief, besides the fact that "so bad it's good" is usually only reserved for low-brow mindless comedies or the Rocky Horror Picture Show. But just saying "they're not in the right place" isn't enough, so let's go through some examples. One good one is the gunshot wound. I don't need to go into why it was bad again, but think of it - that's supposed to be a very tense moment! Milo, or whomever with the voice, just shot someone who is supposed to be a well known, non villain character. We're supposed to feel things for them in that scene, with how it's set up. Anger with Milo, justice, something - but that gunshot wound is so bad it's laughable, and that's not a good place for it. It has the capability of diffusing all that anger, or justice (if you manage to get any at all, considering, but still) which is exactly the opposite of what Adam should want the audience to do. If he intended it to be comic relief, then that just proves he's a shittier writer than Steven Moffat, because at least the Moff in all his hellion glory can keep a scene tense. (Steven Moffat writes BBC Sherlock and Doctor Who, for those unaware). A second good example is the voice Milo had in said scene, for the same reasons. It's hard to feel things for Milo when he sounds like an anthropomorphic cartoon frog that sounds like she chain smoked fifty cartons a day. If you can't take it seriously, you can't feel things in a scene, and that's not how comic relief works. (If you need another example, do you remember when he attacked a bush? In a really tense scene? Yeah.)

Fear In Human Beings & Uniqueness: Okay, so we're in the horror genre, right? Slenderseries are horror video logs. If so, then this quote - "Not every protagonist has to be fearful of everything going on... despite that seeming to be common in Slender-series" makes no sense. Let's say you're getting stalked by a very unearthly, tall man who seems to be wearing a suit and has been known to commit gruesome murder - if you are not scared you are an idiot or incapable of feeling. Slenderman, as an entity, invokes several different common phobias - fear of the unknown, fear of things that look close to human but are not, fear of places with thick woods, fog, or other flora that make it hard to be entirely aware of your surroundings, and fear of being followed as well as a simple fear of not being in control - and it's common to see protagonists being afraid because that is in fact how people react to things that are scary. Being angry and frustrated are also good reactions, but here's the ticket - you get angry or frustrated out of a sense of fear. Why do characters in horror movies turn on each other and yell and verbally/physically attack each other? Because they are scared. Fear is an extremely powerful motivator, just as love is an extremely powerful motivator, and is a direct cause of a lot of these things.

However, just being angry at something that may kill you at any point without the hint of fear? That's not how people work. I mean, people do that, but they're also the ones that die really early on and generally react idiotically to everything, so that's not a good thing to be as a title character. And in terms of uniqueness, it's generally not a good thing if you can point out examples immediately after stating something is unique. Unique means literally "one of a kind" much like a snowflake, and having other examples is not unique. But you do bring up Alex, which is a good example of anger out of fear. Chris, too, is a really good example. They both lash out angrily, and Heather too (though hers from what we have seen is more muted in sarcasm than true anger). Several times, Alex specifically chased down cult members that have followed them, and I mean chased down. Why? Because knowing who is following them will alleviate part of the fear - that which is unknown. Knowing who's following them is better than not, and by taking control of the situation, or attempting to, it tamps down on that other general fear of not being in control. None of that is how Noah works. Noah is angry because he knows how to play emotions, and that will always be my personal greatest critique of Adam Rosner as an actor. But I'm not getting into his acting.

And before anyone mentions that chasing cultists isn't smart, I never said it was. Anger makes people do stupid shit. But at least with the DH Boys, they have a reason - fear. Noah is literally just angry because he's angry. There's no fear and that's honestly the problem.

Unreliable Narrators: Finally, the last point I'm making. You said "In regards to unreliable narrators, to me that makes the series more unpredictable to have an unreliable narrator so soon instead of later because with the latter it allows for retcons to be made and can add to confusion, and Marble Hornets is already really damn confusing when trying to analyze it". However, that's just... well, wrong. An Unreliable Narrator is "a narrator, whether in literature, film, or theatre, whose credibility has been seriously compromised". Credibility does not usually include future events, it includes the past. To be credible, your previous comments and accusations must stand true, and that's what is so super cool about an unreliable narrator. Generally speaking, an Unreliable Narrator is a person you are built up to trust, and then it is revealed that they are, by their own doing or by some outside occurrence, untrustworthy. The entire point is to literally make it so that everything they have ever said could possibly be false, and make is so that you have to scramble to determine what is true and what is not true of your own volition. You have to sit and think and say "I can trust this because this cannot lie" and then try and pick up the pieces. It makes a story amazing because you have to sit and think about the entire thing as a whole before moving on, as you cannot move forward critically in the same way. Noah fucked the entire thing up big time because he never gave the audience a chance to trust him explicitly. We got a very short amount of time with Noah before we realized that he wasn't trustworthy, which means that it didn't take very long at all to pick up the pieces because there was nothing to pick up. That's why it worked so well with Marble Hornets. It was video 71 out of now 80, which means that there were 70 previous entries before itthat suddenly weren't trustworthy anymore. How many times did Jay say "I did a thing off camera" and we said "cool deal" because we trusted him? So many. And every single one of those moments was no longer a given. We could no longer look back and still think "cool deal" because we had no idea, and that is honestly terrifying. Jay could have killed a man and we wouldn't know and that's what makes an unreliable narrator super cool. Not that they can be "unpredictable" in the future, because that's almost a little boring, because it is predictable. With Noah, we now know not to trust him, so we can take everything he says with a grain of salt and he has what looks to be so much series left to go that it's not a good thing at all. Once you learn a dog can bite, you ignore the dog and the dog becomes something to the side of your mind because you know to ignore it, and it's the same with the series. Once you know a narrator can't be trusted, you can "ignore the narrator" and take what they say only half seriously, and the fact that they're untrustworthy becomes "something to the side of your mind" because you know it can be ignored. With MH, they're ending any video now so we have no time to be comfortable with the idea. Noah has ages for us to get comfortable not trusting him, and it's a shame.

Honestly, as a final thought, I've always said my biggest peeve with TT is that it has so much potential. It could go places. But Adam keeps doing shit like this, like making editing mistakes in a series that's made a name for itself in terms of CGI quality, or misusing writing devices in a way that leaves the series really bland, and it's disappointing. It's not being nitpicky, it's expecting a series to have a certain level of quality and a certain level of something because it is more popular than other series. It's expecting a series that has so many views to be in general better than a series with less, because that's how media works. People watch stuff that's good because it's good. And it's disappointing, because Dark Harvest excels in acting and in story and in believability, and it's numbers are still so much lower than TT, when TT has so many flaws. And that's not nitpicky at all.

I will admit some of what you and others have said has had me look out for bad points of the series (even though they're minor) such as Noah's way of speaking that seems overacted at times and how the older members of his family seem to have some sort of strange habit to wave their hands around when speaking (I was laughing when Mary Asher did this). But just because blood didn't come out of a gunshot wound entirely realistically, Milo's voice sounds more like a chronic smoker than a slit throat, or a gunshot being just slightly unrealistic (DarkHarvest is a lot worse, it has shotgun sounds for pistols and submachine guns -_-) doesn't make the entry bad and cause it to be a problem that needs dire improvement.

I respect your opinions on the matter, though here's my beef with what you just said.

1) You had to put down a smaller series to make TT look better. Given that I am not a professional at gunshot sounds, the loud booms that happen when the DarkHarvest boys are being shot at does not in any way ruin immersion for me.

2) You missed the point entirely! Good job! You basically took my criteria for what makes an entry bad, and said "well NUH-UH! IT'S GREAT!" The issue for me is that if something is bad enough that I'm laughing at it because of numerous Out Of Game reasons, it's not a good entry. Good entries have me there, in the series, nervous with the protag, viewing the world through their eyes, or rather, their camera's eye. The thing about DarkHarvest, granted it's kind of a late-game series, is that I actually feel bad for the main characters when bad shit happens to them because they're like-able, they address real issues, and OOG their acting is realistic. EverymanHYBRID, as disjointed as it is, also has the same thing going for him. Who doesn't feel bad for Vinny in the EMH fandom right now? However, Noah's character doesn't evoke the same emotional response at all. He's not like-able, nor intelligent (for a college student) and quickly hostile. Adam Rosner's acting makes MH Jay's decision making seem realistic. He pulled the unreliable narrator card far to early in the series - unlike Marble Hornets who waited for their fans to get towards the end, then made them question everything they had seen up to that point. Also, Noah's becoming a God, why should anything even worry him anymore? I'm sorry that our views have to be so different, and as I said before I respect that you don't see things as I do, but can you at least see why these things irk me so?

I know that this series is free. I'm aware that Adam Rosner is making it out of the goodness of his heart. For that I am grateful. I know that independent film-making has its limitations. I'd never dis a series for being limited like that. I will however continue to watch all the series that I have been watching, and practically be forced to compare them to each other, and hold them to the same standards, because what else can I compare them to?

1. I'm not putting down any series, I love DarkHarvest just as much as I do TribeTwelve and don't consider it smaller at all. I was using them as an example to show that TribeTwelve isn't as bad when it comes to some aspects in comparison to other series that are just as big and successful as TribeTwelve, but it seems me and you don't have the same opinion of DarkHarvest of just how big it is. Although I also assumed that since you seem to know the realism of gunshot wounds you'd also know other realistic things about guns.

2. Maybe perhaps we're missing the point of each other's posts. I pointed out, and agreed of there being, some of the negative points of the series but didn't think they were as severe as you make them out to be. It's possible that Adam Rosner is purposely making specific aspects laughable for comedic relief. Not every protagonist has to be fearful of everything going on or have horrible occurrences happen despite that seeming to be common in Slender-series. Noah is not always a likable character but I enjoy watching him do what he does, similar to how I hate what Trevor Philips does in Grand Theft Auto 5 but I still enjoy playing as him. I think Vinny has been sitting on his ass for two or three years and needs to do something instead of acting like a wimp to HABIT and hiding in a corner for so long, so I don't feel sorry for him; all of his friends are dead and it doesn't seem he has any family left (other than Evan who isn't even himself most of the time), so what does he have to lose? Noah is quite a unique character in the Slenderverse. While many can identify with the fear that other protagonists have, I feel it'd be more realistic to have more protagonists be angry and frustrated at their situation and lash out (Marble Hornets seems to be the only series that does this which may be a result of Slendersickness so I'm not sure it counts; I suppose Alex from DarkHarvest is the only other example?). In regards to unreliable narrators, to me that makes the series more unpredictable to have an unreliable narrator so soon instead of later because with the latter it allows for retcons to be made and can add to confusion, and Marble Hornets is already really damn confusing when trying to analyze it. Noah's credibility for having to worry really depends on what your opinion on fate and predetermined destiny is, and Firebrand is trying to change Noah's fate anyways so we don't know what can change or still happen; if his life isn't on a set path he can still die and not become Firebrand.

I can respect having a critical view, but I guess I don't understand why you're being so nitpicky. Although sometimes I also like to debate whenever I have differing opinions compared to others.

Hi, Justin. I'm John, and I feel like there's a lot we need to talk about. Let's debate, yeah?

This is very long sorry :

1. The size of DarkHarvest00 isn't an opinion, it's a fact. It's still a relatively small series compared to TribeTwelve (and especially compared to Marble Hornets). And just to be accurate in this, let's throw some numbers out here. MH's Youtube channel has 354,830 subscribers as I type this, and it's first video has 3,153,912 views. That gives us a baseline of what can be called a massively popular series. In terms of size, they're Box Office kind of level. TribeTwelve has 39,373 subcribers as I type and 228,036 views on it's first video. Compared to MH, that's a big difference - but we can expect that jump because TT isn't Box Office Level. However, it's still "big". It's part of the Big Three in terms of series discussed. Now, compared to TT, DarkHarvest is incredibly small. 16,081 subscribers and 84,377 views on it's first video is a very similar jump downward. If TribeTwelve is a "big" series, and DarkHarvest has 23,292 less subscribers than TT and 143,659 less views on the first video, then DarkHarvest cannot be a big series. It's not an opinion. (Keep in mind these numbers may change on small scale, but the large scale comparisons should not change. Also keep in mind it is not the smallest series, but that's also not what was brought up.)

Also, keeping on your Part 1, you did actually put DH down. By making anything look less in order to elevate something else, you are "putting down" whatever you made look less. That's the definition. You can compare without making something less than, but "DarkHarvest is a lot worse, it has shotgun sounds for pistols and submachine guns -_-" is not that.

2. Second, lemme address this quote here: "Although I also assumed that since you seem to know the realism of gunshot wounds you'd also know other realistic things about guns." This is not a true statement. Someone can know a lot about guns and how guns work, and know nothing about how the human body reacts to such, and vice versa. Saying you must know about both in tandem is like saying an Actor who is trained in Acting must also know and understand how to build props and sew clothing. (And coming from someone who's in the Theatre Major in college, most acting majors don't remember a thing from their sewing and props classes.) Its not that its not a thing, knowing about both, but assuming, well, you know the old adage, "makes an ass out of u and me".

The other thing about this is that you're addressing a moment that requires exact gun knowledge (the DarkHavest gunshots) in comparison to a moment that a small child could realize looked off (the blood from the gunshot wound). One requires the knowledge of 1. what a shotgun sounds like, 2. what a machine gun sounds like, and also requires rewatching the moment several times because the first few get you too much into the moment to really care what the guns sound like because Chris and Alex were getting shot at. Even with a minor knowledge of guns and firearms (I can pick out a Taurus particularly quickly, if that gives you any credentials) I honestly couldn't tell the difference between one bang and another, mostly because I didn't care because Chris and Alex were getting shot at and that is a tiny bit more important, I believe, than knowing exactly what gun sound was just made. The other requires the knowledge of what looks fake and what does not. Most people have a general taste in how blood should look, because most people go to the movies and in most movies now adays someone gets shot. Media is literally training the currently movie-going generation into being better critics about their realism in things that require realism, because it moves the market forward and gives movie-makers something to strive for. Most days, it's generally accepted that blood is a red color, typically dark (especially in dark settings) and conforms to the shape of the clothing underneath is as it spreads. The specific TT scene had blood that was a candy red (in a room without any real lighting and only a blue ambient lighting from outside which would have actually made blood even darker because it's blue) and the spot stayed a perfect circle shape over a part of the body that couldn't hold a perfect circle if it tried. It's her back and she's on her side. There is no blood running in direction of gravity, and it spreads eventually in all directions, even ignoring folds in her clothing. Ignoring gravity trumps whether or not a gunshot is the correct sound to the correct gun in terms of what's worse.

The other thing about it isn't even the quality - it's requoting what xyzombie said. Differing gunshots do not ruin the immersion, or how into the moment you are. It still sounds like gunshots and the moment is still just as tense no matter what specific guns are used. However, defying gravity is a different story - you either need to have established physics laws that defy such or need to be in the musical Wicked for defying gravity to not remove a person from the story and ruin the immersion. And that's the point he made originally. (For those unaware, Defying Gravity is a musical number from Wicked.)

3. On to Part Two! I don't think I need to explain how severe the mistakes in TribeTwelve actually are, contrary to what you say (if I do, please see the previous paragraph again because ignoring gravity is pretty severe honestly). However, I do think I need to address three writing conventions you bring up. 1, Comic Relief, 2, Unique Characters and Fear in Human Beings, and 3, Unreliable Narrators.

Comic Relief: Comic Relief is defined as "comic episodes in a dramatic or literary work that offset more serious sections" according to Google Definitions. The key term here is offset - comic moments are applied in a way after a dramatic scene to release some of the tension. Usually, it's placed so those crying can halt the tears, giving them an easy way to gently remove themselves from their catharsis - which is a release of emotional stress - or it's placed to provide catharsis, as laughter after a tense scene can release the same emotional stress. Where it isn't required is in scenes were tension needs to remain high - this is why you usually don't see much comic relief in the last half-hour of a movie, as they need to keep the stakes high and a giggle can make than all come crashing down. You say "It's possible that Adam Rosner is purposely making specific aspects laughable for comedic relief" but the scenes that get referenced as "so bad they're laughable" usually are not in the place for comic relief, besides the fact that "so bad it's good" is usually only reserved for low-brow mindless comedies or the Rocky Horror Picture Show. But just saying "they're not in the right place" isn't enough, so let's go through some examples. One good one is the gunshot wound. I don't need to go into why it was bad again, but think of it - that's supposed to be a very tense moment! Milo, or whomever with the voice, just shot someone who is supposed to be a well known, non villain character. We're supposed to feel things for them in that scene, with how it's set up. Anger with Milo, justice, something - but that gunshot wound is so bad it's laughable, and that's not a good place for it. It has the capability of diffusing all that anger, or justice (if you manage to get any at all, considering, but still) which is exactly the opposite of what Adam should want the audience to do. If he intended it to be comic relief, then that just proves he's a shittier writer than Steven Moffat, because at least the Moff in all his hellion glory can keep a scene tense. (Steven Moffat writes BBC Sherlock and Doctor Who, for those unaware). A second good example is the voice Milo had in said scene, for the same reasons. It's hard to feel things for Milo when he sounds like an anthropomorphic cartoon frog that sounds like she chain smoked fifty cartons a day. If you can't take it seriously, you can't feel things in a scene, and that's not how comic relief works. (If you need another example, do you remember when he attacked a bush? In a really tense scene? Yeah.)

Fear In Human Beings & Uniqueness: Okay, so we're in the horror genre, right? Slenderseries are horror video logs. If so, then this quote - "Not every protagonist has to be fearful of everything going on... despite that seeming to be common in Slender-series" makes no sense. Let's say you're getting stalked by a very unearthly, tall man who seems to be wearing a suit and has been known to commit gruesome murder - if you are not scared you are an idiot or incapable of feeling. Slenderman, as an entity, invokes several different common phobias - fear of the unknown, fear of things that look close to human but are not, fear of places with thick woods, fog, or other flora that make it hard to be entirely aware of your surroundings, and fear of being followed as well as a simple fear of not being in control - and it's common to see protagonists being afraid because that is in fact how people react to things that are scary. Being angry and frustrated are also good reactions, but here's the ticket - you get angry or frustrated out of a sense of fear. Why do characters in horror movies turn on each other and yell and verbally/physically attack each other? Because they are scared. Fear is an extremely powerful motivator, just as love is an extremely powerful motivator, and is a direct cause of a lot of these things.

However, just being angry at something that may kill you at any point without the hint of fear? That's not how people work. I mean, people do that, but they're also the ones that die really early on and generally react idiotically to everything, so that's not a good thing to be as a title character. And in terms of uniqueness, it's generally not a good thing if you can point out examples immediately after stating something is unique. Unique means literally "one of a kind" much like a snowflake, and having other examples is not unique. But you do bring up Alex, which is a good example of anger out of fear. Chris, too, is a really good example. They both lash out angrily, and Heather too (though hers from what we have seen is more muted in sarcasm than true anger). Several times, Alex specifically chased down cult members that have followed them, and I mean chased down. Why? Because knowing who is following them will alleviate part of the fear - that which is unknown. Knowing who's following them is better than not, and by taking control of the situation, or attempting to, it tamps down on that other general fear of not being in control. None of that is how Noah works. Noah is angry because he knows how to play emotions, and that will always be my personal greatest critique of Adam Rosner as an actor. But I'm not getting into his acting.

And before anyone mentions that chasing cultists isn't smart, I never said it was. Anger makes people do stupid shit. But at least with the DH Boys, they have a reason - fear. Noah is literally just angry because he's angry. There's no fear and that's honestly the problem.

Unreliable Narrators: Finally, the last point I'm making. You said "In regards to unreliable narrators, to me that makes the series more unpredictable to have an unreliable narrator so soon instead of later because with the latter it allows for retcons to be made and can add to confusion, and Marble Hornets is already really damn confusing when trying to analyze it". However, that's just... well, wrong. An Unreliable Narrator is "a narrator, whether in literature, film, or theatre, whose credibility has been seriously compromised". Credibility does not usually include future events, it includes the past. To be credible, your previous comments and accusations must stand true, and that's what is so super cool about an unreliable narrator. Generally speaking, an Unreliable Narrator is a person you are built up to trust, and then it is revealed that they are, by their own doing or by some outside occurrence, untrustworthy. The entire point is to literally make it so that everything they have ever said could possibly be false, and make is so that you have to scramble to determine what is true and what is not true of your own volition. You have to sit and think and say "I can trust this because this cannot lie" and then try and pick up the pieces. It makes a story amazing because you have to sit and think about the entire thing as a whole before moving on, as you cannot move forward critically in the same way. Noah fucked the entire thing up big time because he never gave the audience a chance to trust him explicitly. We got a very short amount of time with Noah before we realized that he wasn't trustworthy, which means that it didn't take very long at all to pick up the pieces because there was nothing to pick up. That's why it worked so well with Marble Hornets. It was video 71 out of now 80, which means that there were 70 previous entries before itthat suddenly weren't trustworthy anymore. How many times did Jay say "I did a thing off camera" and we said "cool deal" because we trusted him? So many. And every single one of those moments was no longer a given. We could no longer look back and still think "cool deal" because we had no idea, and that is honestly terrifying. Jay could have killed a man and we wouldn't know and that's what makes an unreliable narrator super cool. Not that they can be "unpredictable" in the future, because that's almost a little boring, because it is predictable. With Noah, we now know not to trust him, so we can take everything he says with a grain of salt and he has what looks to be so much series left to go that it's not a good thing at all. Once you learn a dog can bite, you ignore the dog and the dog becomes something to the side of your mind because you know to ignore it, and it's the same with the series. Once you know a narrator can't be trusted, you can "ignore the narrator" and take what they say only half seriously, and the fact that they're untrustworthy becomes "something to the side of your mind" because you know it can be ignored. With MH, they're ending any video now so we have no time to be comfortable with the idea. Noah has ages for us to get comfortable not trusting him, and it's a shame.

Honestly, as a final thought, I've always said my biggest peeve with TT is that it has so much potential. It could go places. But Adam keeps doing shit like this, like making editing mistakes in a series that's made a name for itself in terms of CGI quality, or misusing writing devices in a way that leaves the series really bland, and it's disappointing. It's not being nitpicky, it's expecting a series to have a certain level of quality and a certain level of something because it is more popular than other series. It's expecting a series that has so many views to be in general better than a series with less, because that's how media works. People watch stuff that's good because it's good. And it's disappointing, because Dark Harvest excels in acting and in story and in believability, and it's numbers are still so much lower than TT, when TT has so many flaws. And that's not nitpicky at all.

While I agree with you, crazythatcounts, there is just a few things you seem to forget to take into consideration. I'm just going off of what pops into my head first, so this really will not have any structure, other than a list:

1.) Be it intentional or not, I find it a little abrasive that you seem to be saying, "The opinions that you have aren't really correct to have." It just rubs me the wrong way, as everyone is entitled to their opinion on any given series they follow. This is just the way I saw it, I completely understand if it is so very much not what you intended to do.

2.) This quote here: " then DarkHarvest cannot be a big series. It is not an opinion." Actually, it IS an opinion. While the numbers and figures are a great reference, what makes a series "big" is not the numbers, it is the fans. I could watch something once and talk about it for AGES. It's up to the fandom at large how big a series is. I would consider DarkHarvest a rather big series, myself. I cannot go anywhere in the Verses' regular haunts without hearing about it. Meanwhile, TT is really only discussed whenever a new video comes out. Once again, my opinion, I'm just voicing it.

3.) "That gunshot wound is so bad it's laughable." You seem to be failing to take into consideration the budgets, time constraints, and availability of props/supplies. This goes for every series that is not funded through any other means but the creators themselves. The budget comes straight out of their own pockets and as such, you have to allow a little leeway in terms of Suspension of Disbelief. I mean, if the blood did not run exactly right in terms of the normal laws of physics and gravity, it's for one of two reasons. Either the creator did, in fact, make a mistake and therefore is to blame or the materials they had to work with would not act and react the same as normal blood would. No matter which is the case, it is up to the viewer to decide if this is something they can put up with or not. If they can, good on them. If not, then maybe they should try another series which does have effects they can accept.

Once more, this is all my opinion, which in no way reflects anyone else's. I love a good debate, which is why I bring these points up. I'm sure there are a few points I've missed, but that is just how it is. If you notice any, please do bring them up and they will be addressed accordingly.

P.S.: As Cheftain1 posted before mine went through, I will address his post here and now. I will not condone any verbal bashing of any kind. If you love TT, that's great. If you start to flame others for there love of it with no reason other than you like it and they don't, then you will be in a heap of trouble. Granted, if that DID happen, I'd rather it be here, my point still stands.

P.S.: As Cheftain1 posted before mine went through, I will address his post here and now. I will not condone any verbal bashing of any kind. If you love TT, that's great. If you start to flame others for there love of it with no reason other than you like it and they don't, then you will be in a heap of trouble. Granted, if that DID happen, I'd rather it be here, my point still stands.

I never meant to flame or bash others because they don't like something that I do and I didn't meant my post to be that. I actually agree with some points that crazythatcounts brought up and I don't hate Justin. What I actually meant by my post was that I just find very very long posts very scary and I would probably or dislike to argue with all of it,mayber I should've said that in my post ( I'm saying crazy is not wrong with his/her opinion). I don't disrespect craythatcount's or Justin's opinion and I never meant to bash them.

I am so sorry, Chieftain. I think my post got lost in translation. I didn't mean to say YOU were bashing anything, at all! Far from it, you actually helped to remind me to put that in my post so no one would period. Lol, you're good my friend!