Murder and Rape: Fact or Fiction?

I had my suspicions about this and now the Guardian has come out with an article questioning the legitimacy of some of these claims.

There were two babies who had their throats slit. The seven-year-old girl who was raped and murdered in the Superdome. And the corpses laid out amid
the excrement in the convention centre.
In a week filled with dreadful scenes of desperation and anger from New Orleans following Hurricane Katrina some stories stood out.

But as time goes on many remain unsubstantiated and may yet prove to be apocryphal.

New Orleans police have been unable to confirm the tale of the raped child, or indeed any of the reports of rapes, in the Superdome and convention
centre.

New Orleans police chief Eddie Compass said last night: "We don't have any substantiated rapes. We will investigate if the individuals come
forward."

I personally find that hard to believe. I don't think even a lowlife rapist or child molester or whatever can function in a place so overcrowded
without any privacy with human waste and water all over the floor and having not eaten or drank anything for days. Plus didn't they say the water
had crocadiles and snakes in it etc, if they found children's bodies perhaps that's what got to them? I think it was all rumours spread in alll of
the confusion and pandemonium like someone yelling fire in a crowded theater to cause panic. Everyone was in survival mode, trying to get food &
water, I can't see someone doing something like that under those conditions. Someone could have been halucinating and delerious from lack of food &
water and exhaustion and started that rumor from a nightmare or somehting.

I see your point and also thought it strange that people who had been w/out food and water would want or feel the need to have sexual urges. I would
think that is the first desire to leave you. Especially when fear, panic and chaos get thrown in the equation.

I'm afraid if you listen to the foreign press you hear a much worse story than we've seen in the US. The media here has focused on the looting and
the race issue and fluffy, feel-good stories like a bunch of students who raised ten bucks to send to the Katrina victims because that's what people
want. To hate, to divide, to excuse, and then to hide from it all and feel good. It all leads to distraction of just how bad the situation was.

Certain specific events will never be verified. As the article itself points out,

But then Fema could not confirm there were thousands of people at the convention centre until they were told by the press for the simple reason that
they did not know.

The American networks were (and still are) so full of fluff, "let's look at the bright side" pieces that I found foreign press reports a
much-needed (though not exactly welcome) reminder of the hopelessness and despair these victims must have felt- not to mention just what chaos really
means.

If you look at these stories, the worst of which are only reported in the foreign press, they all come from survivors reports. Yet, for some reason
the domestic press found these reports less worthy of reporting than did respectable news organizations outside America. You can say any number of
things about this fact, but it doesn't change that in general, what I've been following on the BBC has been far more thorough than what I've seen
on US channels and radio stations. Everything on the networks, Fox, and CNN all looked very repetitive when there were hundreds of survivors who
apparently had something to say.

The thing is, we aren't arguing the possibility that rape could exist. When you have such a cocktail shaker of urban humanity stuck together in one
large place like the Superdome: junkies, homeless, common thieves, gang bangers, ex-cons, paedophiles, abusers, the violent, the greedy, the ordinary
everyday people, tourists, foreigners, illegal immigrants, children, families and the elderly – you add the elements of fear, panic, hunger and
thirst (not to mention claustrophobia) add the elements of disaster, shock and loss, and you have a recipe for chaos on levels we cannot even begin to
imagine.

To address the person who complained about the news source – all the US media is focusing on is the looting. Try to separate the people who were
trapped there in the city for a moment. A common thief before the flood will probably revert to what he knows best; for comfort, for need, out of
habit. Same for the druggie and the abusers. If you have a paedophile in an area where there are non-stop children, running, playing, sleeping, again
you can imagine the consequences, because this is an urge that cannot be controlled despite the circumstances.

What I am against is people being too ready to dismiss the great population of survivors in NOLA as looters, thugs, murderers and rapists, without a
basis in fact. If you get bread you are a looter, if you grab clothing and shoes and you are black you are a thug AND a looter and deserve to be shot
in the head (according to many on here looting should equal death).

We say that on these ATS thread that you cannot just rely on hearsay, you have to back it up. Even the wildest consipracy theories should have at
least a well thought-out argument, but all I hear is readiness to believe the worst in fellow Americans.

Yet what is fact? 200 or more police quit rather than continue with what must have been a nightmare, not just in terms of logistics – chaos and
death – but in seeing what we weren’t allowed to see; people who were begging for help and aid and no one coming to their rescue. Some policemen
even killed themselves – you can’t tell me they did that because of looting and a few rapes. Come on… where is the logic? They are POLICE MEN.
New Orleans isn’t exactly Connecticut. I’m sure they’ve seen crime before. I'm sure they've seen it everyday of their working careers. What
they probably had never seen is how a city cried for help and was ignored. They also saw how fast the media twisted the truth and fed it back to the
eager masses who are so ready to gulp up mulch and sewage.

Meanwhile the reality is playing out in the background - even the media couldn't stem the flow of outrage in the politicians who were sobbing,
screaming, raging, swearing at the ineptitude of the government and FEMA.

I am not saying there was no crime - read everything I said about the criminal element in NOLA before the flood - Yes, there was looting, chaose,
thievery and some panicked angry people who probably should not have been armed.

But let's be clear about calling a spade a spade.

Pedos and other abusers have raped and abused before the flood. Their crimes are predatory ones by nature, making this a perfect opportunity in which
to do it again – they probably found Katrina to be convenient, but it is a sickness and thus not connected to the ‘animal’ behaviour people are
going on about and linking to the actions of the ordinary people.

This would happen in any big city who has its share of these social crimes: New York, London, Toyko, Chicago, Paris... if you put that many
personality types and shake them together there will be repercusions. Why do we then twist this around to be the ANIMALS in New Orleans? Would you
like to be called an animals because you panicked and were hungry?

The joint accusations and practice of linking these words together: murdering, looting and raping HAS to be separated.

I found it very hard to believe that ordinary thirsty youths who were incensed, tired and hungry (not to mention shocked that no one came to their
aid) decided to pass the time waiting to be rescued while raping someone.

Physically it would be difficult; emotionally it would be even more so. Now if they said they took some of those FEMA officials into the bathrooms I
would have more reason to believe – just the sheer anger and unrivalled frustration would make it a vivid possibility in my mind.

My final point is that we need to think about the people as much as we can as individuals – not lump them together. This can only hurt in the end
and we sound biased and uninformed when we do.

I am certain most of us don’t want to believe the rape stories we were told. So why can’t we then at least investigate the proof? We seem to cling
to these half-truths like rafts in a turbulent ocean, because the media tells us this is why the disaster and chaos is NOLA is happening, because the
poor and the blacks and minorities are animals. NOT because our government screwed up. NOT because our government doesn't care about the poor. NOT
because someone has an agenda and it is NOT helping the citizens of New Orleans.

But there we are, gulping it up like they want us to. This is a conspiracy channel, we are supposed to fight against the dissmination of lies and
untruths.

If this turns out to be false and they find proof of many rapes and murders then I will be wrong and you can gloat and be right. I am willing to take
that chance.

The BBC and Independent and Guardian and papers from Australia, Canada, Germany, France and China are much, much tougher and ready to say things that
the US media would never in a million years print.

If they are questioning the rapes and murders there is a reason, because in the UK those would be the first to accuse Americans of being savage
animals, they too have to sell the papers right? Things like that sell. Reflective, quiet, contemplation of the 'maybe we are wrong' variety -
don't sell.

Think for yourselves. Do the research, think again and question why you are being told these things.

If they are questioning the rapes and murders there is a reason, because in the UK those would be the first to accuse Americans of being savage
animals, they too have to sell the papers right? Things like that sell. Reflective, quiet, contemplation of the 'maybe we are wrong' variety -
don't sell.

Think for yourselves. Do the research, think again and question why you are being told these things.

Finally! someone admits what the europeans really think of us! BTW if the government is inefficient in dissiminating aid, why do you believe that when
they say they cant confirm rape and murder allegations that they have any idea whats going on, Dont they have their hands full?

Could`nt agree more Nikelbee,if you thought otherwise i was`nt being clear.Your citizens were being treated like criminals by your own Gov because of
the crooked minority when the majority were only trying to survive or provide for their families.

People in this country need to learn to take some freaking responsibility for themselves and stop blaming the government for not babying them. If
they say you should evacuate you'd better do it! They should now make all evacutation orders mandatory so stupid people dont get themselves
killed

I agree with you that people should have tried to evacuate. If they are saying it is going to be huge they should get the heck out of dodge. However,
some for whatever reasons couldn't or wouldn't. They still didn't deserve what was coming to them and certainly don't deserve the condemnation of
many who call them any number of things - perhaps not well informed or ignorant of the consequences would be more appropriate than looting, raping,
killing animal.

As far as the European news source, that should come as no surprise, but should not be taken as a sign of hatred.

Come on... the rest of the world is staring in shock at what we've just seen. It isn't to be taken as the 'real' anything from other countries
other than what they see happening. Listen to the words of support and comfort many nations have offered. Britain in particular has always been an
ally of the US despite the need for the US to mistrust and bad mouth everyone else.

The foreign papers just don't have the same agenda to hide the truth from Americans because, well because they don't live there do they - their
agenda is to sell papers to their own people. And people all over the world like tragedy - just a fact of human nature. In which case the facts or the
slants about what happened in Katrina are going to sound a little harsher and less cushioned than you have been accustomed to.

Please don't confuse what I've said. Browse through any foreign paper online and you willl see real condemnation toward the president and the
government in general and sympathy and outreach toward the american people.

Regarding the foreign press coverage, I think a lot of their coverage is responding to a feeling by many who are not familiar with america except for
what they see in our media that the illusion of racial equality has been suddenly exposed.

It's no secret to any American or anyone who has spent some time here that there are serious issues America has not overcome regarding the equality
of races in our society, but the image we like to present to the world is perhaps a little nicer than we all know it is. When foreigners see images
which even Americans describe as being "like Somalia" on TV, and when they find themselves caught up in the middle of it, the feeling that something
is very, very wrong is perhaps much greater to those who have been fed "America for export". Those of us raised on "America for domestic
consumption" have developed a kind of numbness to these issues.

Usually a much larger portion of foreign news coverage relates to America specifically as regards Iraq and Afghanistan, and our projection of large
amounts of power to those regions and the results thereof, than does domestic coverage, where of course we have a whole panoply of other issues
relating to America being discussed. So what are they to think, when they hear nonstop stories of American power, only to see thousands of
mostly-blacks being stranded for 5 or more days?

Of course, something WAS very, very wrong, but I think what was wrong was caused by nature and mans' incompetence, folly, and general apathy, not
racial antipathy. Perhaps this is an argument for a different thread, though, I don't mean to bring this up as a challenge or proposition for
debate, I'm just stating my POV.

I agree it's certainly not what Europeans "really" think of us. Any given European, or anyone, will think something different from the next one
about "us." The general tone of foreign press coverage is due instead to how individual reporters and witnesses have reacted to a reason-defying,
terrible and complex tragedy, and the willingness of different nations' medias to respond to that and portray (or obfuscate) different aspects of
it.

Well now it can't be said that this is a 'conspiracy' of the foreign press. CNN just said this morning that police have no proof of rape and the
police themselves said that no bodies of children were found murdered in the Superdome.

Seems this is just more media propaganda to distract people from what has really happened: the poor, the hungry, the dying received no aid while the
government blamed the lack of efforts on those 'savage looters and rapists' who killed, abused and descended into complete chaos and anarchy in just
a few days.

The images of suffering played a backseat to the manipulated stories so that our sympathy for the victims were confused over reports of increased
violence.

I have my doubts as to the rape and murder reports now. Who's willing to bet that FEMA or someone else is throwing out that bit to the media so that
they can justify martial law? And I'm not sure I believe the bit about "snipers" firing at rescuers--for the same reason.

And even if you could report a rape or murder to the police...they'd probably tell you where you could go.

If you have the rape and murder of a child, it would seem that there would be someone that could come forward. I think even if a child was somehow
missing a parent that other people would try to watch over that child. I would think there would be at least one person to come forward if this did
occur. Even if the police would not listen, we all know that there is enough news media that seems a bit more sympathetic, and surely you could get
your story, or accusation to them.

Who knows, maybe I am just being optimistic. As a mother of three young girls, this report upset me considerably, on top of the overall suffering of
these people. I think as was already stated, that these rumors were occuring in the Superdome and Convention center, and also that it was a great
distraction to the real plight of these people.

And even if you could report a rape or murder to the police...they'd probably tell you where you could go.

Indeed. I wouldn't go back there and trust those police for anything would you?

I don't discount the stories of rapes among survivors. My problem is that the legitimacy of these claims are taken as automatic fact without any
proof. Where are the bodies of the children who were found in the bathrooms? How many rapes? 1? 2? A handful? Do you see my point? These rumours and
allegations are damaging because when the media and news sources say 'rapes' and 'murders' our ears perk up. We (without knowing it) accept this
biased view as truth, instead of questioning what was really going on there.

My mind can only imagine the worst kind of hell; people shouting, fighting, arguing, screaming and all in a panic. The presence of armed troops
didn't help. And we do have proof that not only did many police find this too much to deal with and quit (200 or so) but 2 committed suicide as
well.

If we take the word of the survivors then how about the rest of what they are saying? If rapists, murderers, looters and thug labels are going to be
used against the majority who only wanted to survive, then let's believe the rest of what they are saying - it wasn't just limited to the poor folks
looting and raising hell - Troops and police were shooting at innocent people.

From the BBC:

"They killed a man here last night," Steve Banka, 28, told the Reuters news agency before he left on Sunday.

Death was everywhere, both inside and outside the Superdome
"A young lady was being raped and stabbed.

"And the sounds of her screaming got to this man and so he ran out into the street to get help from troops, to try to flag down a passing truck of
them.

"He jumped up on the truck's windscreen and they shot him dead," Mr Banka said.

Another man died in mysterious circumstances on Friday as a police car passed the New Orleans Convention Center, where equally squalid conditions
forced many to sleep outside among streets full of rubbish.

I do think there was a large criminal element preying on the evacuees. These people look for confusion and fear in people. They look to take
advantage of people.
We know they were armed. We know there was gunfire. We know there was arson. We know there was a population of drug users in the area who would have
been desperate for a fix. We know there are gangs in NOLA.
It was anarchy for a while!

It is logical to conclude, IMHO, that there was also rape and murder occurring

I wouldn't be surprised that no one has come forward if they were raped. Most rape victims do not report the rape anyway. And if the rape/murder of
children were true, would the police actually admit to it? It would be very easy to just write off the death as from dehydration, etc and save face,
which is what this government seems to be about anyways.

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