JesseL:Artisan Sandwich: I can't imagine living in such constant pants-shiatting fear of everything.

Neither can I. So why are people in such a pants-shiatting panic over gun owners?

Probably because more than a handful of us gun owners are responsible for more American deaths on American soil in the last 40 years than terrorism. Responsible for more American deaths on American soil since 9/10/01 than terrorism. Their fear is based on reality, recent and almost daily reality, not a straight up fictional fantasy of LaPierre.

JesseL:Thank you for making my point. What we've learned is that when the government starts making lists of people, they tend to do ugly things with them

You gave one example of a government doing nasty things with a list, I provided four examples of them not doing it. That does not make your point that they TEND to do ugly things with them. It shows the exactly opposite of it.

JesseL:The idea of the government putting together a list of citizens who have chosen to exercise a constitutionally protected right should give the chills to anyone with an ounce of respect for liberty.

Bartle J.:You have to give it to the NRA - they're constantly feeding this ridiculous persecution complex gun nuts have, filling their members with fear, and making members PAY THEM for the privilege, all while actually representing gun manufacturers' interests. Not a bad racket.

I honestly do not understand this man. I am as pro boomstick as you can get (Arm ALL criminals, they will sort each other out within days and all that) but this dude is really becoming a caricature of all things wrong with the pro 2nd amendment crowd.

stevenboof:JesseL: Can you cite anything that says the NRA is a civil rights organization?

Shouldn't it be pretty self-evident that an organization that works so hard to maintain one of the liberties guaranteed in the bill of rights is a civil rights organization?

So, no?

It's not clear to me if you're honestly stupid or intentionally obtuse. Here's the NRA's homepage: http://home.nra.org/. Right there is a link to their Civil Rights Defense Fund. Googling for "NRA" and "civil rights" shows numerous references to the NRA being a civil rights organization.

JesseL:stevenboof: JesseL: For a more parallel case of pants-shiatting panic driving registration, take a look at the use of census records in executing Executive Order 9066.

Did the same thing happen during Korea or Vietnam or Iraq 1 or 2? It's almost like we learned from our past mistakes. You see, there are many people in this world that can admit to making a mistake and do their best to make sure they don't do it again. Most people don't double down on the stupid when they know they were/are wrong. Most people...

Thank you for making my point. What we've learned is that when the government starts making lists of people, they tend to do ugly things with them. We've learned that those lists are easily abused and that they're generally best not made at all. When they must be made (and it should take a damned good reason) they need tight controls to prevent their abuse. Even if you support what the current administration will do with them, consider what the next administration might do differently.

The idea of the government putting together a list of citizens who have chosen to exercise a constitutionally protected right should give the chills to anyone with an ounce of respect for liberty.

iheartscotch:You know who else compiled a list of all owners of firearms; and then proceeded to confiscate said firearms?

He even gave every member of a certain chosen people a special star to wear; so everyone would know that they were special.

The Swiss? Ooops. Not them. I forgot, I'm only supposed to bring up the Swiss and guns when I claim that an armed nation is a safe nation. I forgot that I'm not supposed to mention that every gun in Switzerland is registered.

The Southern Dandy:I forgot that I'm not supposed to mention that every gun in Switzerland is registered.

I rather doubt that's true. I'm sure even Switzerland has some criminals (whether it's simply by violating the malum prohibitum rule about registration, or because they're the sort of criminals that actually have victims) with unregistered guns.

stevenboof:LaughingRadish: Googling for "NRA" and "civil rights" shows numerous references to the NRA being a civil rights organization.

All of those claims are made by the NRA, not others. I can claim that I am the second coming of Christ, but that doesn't make it true.

There is no authority that makes an organization eligible to call themselves a civil rights organization. If the members of that organization believe they are working towards civil rights, that's all the authority they need. Similarly, there is no law that states that you have to recognize them as a civil rights organization.

The Southern Dandy:iheartscotch: You know who else compiled a list of all owners of firearms; and then proceeded to confiscate said firearms?

He even gave every member of a certain chosen people a special star to wear; so everyone would know that they were special.

The Swiss? Ooops. Not them. I forgot, I'm only supposed to bring up the Swiss and guns when I claim that an armed nation is a safe nation. I forgot that I'm not supposed to mention that every gun in Switzerland is registered.

I was watching Nancy Pelosi's speech, Tuesday?, anyway; she said that there should be a period of time that every president should be allowed to "get stuff done; and that, while the partisan process is good, it's too slow" or something similar.

Does that not sound like she's suggesting that we need to skip the democratic process to you?

The only cororllary I can think of is from Ancient Rome. They'd elect a supreme leader in emergencies, who could bypass the democratic process. They'd hold the position for a year and then relinquish power. That didn't work out well for them.

/ and, these are the people you want to trust to implement gun control?

iheartscotch:The Southern Dandy: iheartscotch: You know who else compiled a list of all owners of firearms; and then proceeded to confiscate said firearms?

He even gave every member of a certain chosen people a special star to wear; so everyone would know that they were special.

The Swiss? Ooops. Not them. I forgot, I'm only supposed to bring up the Swiss and guns when I claim that an armed nation is a safe nation. I forgot that I'm not supposed to mention that every gun in Switzerland is registered.

I was watching Nancy Pelosi's speech, Tuesday?, anyway; she said that there should be a period of time that every president should be allowed to "get stuff done; and that, while the partisan process is good, it's too slow" or something similar.

Does that not sound like she's suggesting that we need to skip the democratic process to you?

The only cororllary I can think of is from Ancient Rome. They'd elect a supreme leader in emergencies, who could bypass the democratic process. They'd hold the position for a year and then relinquish power. That didn't work out well for them.

/ and, these are the people you want to trust to implement gun control?

I don't have to trust them. I've got a gun. Isn't that the point of having a gun?

JesseL:The Southern Dandy: I forgot that I'm not supposed to mention that every gun in Switzerland is registered.

I rather doubt that's true. I'm sure even Switzerland has some criminals (whether it's simply by violating the malum prohibitum rule about registration, or because they're the sort of criminals that actually have victims) with unregistered guns.

JesseL:stevenboof: JesseL: For a more parallel case of pants-shiatting panic driving registration, take a look at the use of census records in executing Executive Order 9066.

Did the same thing happen during Korea or Vietnam or Iraq 1 or 2? It's almost like we learned from our past mistakes. You see, there are many people in this world that can admit to making a mistake and do their best to make sure they don't do it again. Most people don't double down on the stupid when they know they were/are wrong. Most people...

Thank you for making my point. What we've learned is that when the government starts making lists of people, they tend to do ugly things with them. We've learned that those lists are easily abused and that they're generally best not made at all. When they must be made (and it should take a damned good reason) they need tight controls to prevent their abuse. Even if you support what the current administration will do with them, consider what the next administration might do differently.

The idea of the government putting together a list of citizens who have chosen to exercise a constitutionally protected right should give the chills to anyone with an ounce of respect for liberty.

I tell ya', if I were some ebil soshulist muslin looking for a list of names and addresses of gun-owners, where would it find such a list?NRA membership rolls?

Does anyone know what made LaPierre go nuttier than a bag full of squirrels at an acorn convention? When he first popped up in the 90s he was a regular Joe Huntinnfishin type, wasn't he? Or maybe they just didn't let him out in public sans muzzle?

The Southern Dandy:iheartscotch: The Southern Dandy: iheartscotch: You know who else compiled a list of all owners of firearms; and then proceeded to confiscate said firearms?

He even gave every member of a certain chosen people a special star to wear; so everyone would know that they were special.

The Swiss? Ooops. Not them. I forgot, I'm only supposed to bring up the Swiss and guns when I claim that an armed nation is a safe nation. I forgot that I'm not supposed to mention that every gun in Switzerland is registered.

I was watching Nancy Pelosi's speech, Tuesday?, anyway; she said that there should be a period of time that every president should be allowed to "get stuff done; and that, while the partisan process is good, it's too slow" or something similar.

Does that not sound like she's suggesting that we need to skip the democratic process to you?

The only cororllary I can think of is from Ancient Rome. They'd elect a supreme leader in emergencies, who could bypass the democratic process. They'd hold the position for a year and then relinquish power. That didn't work out well for them.

/ and, these are the people you want to trust to implement gun control?

I don't have to trust them. I've got a gun. Isn't that the point of having a gun?

The point? One of the reasons guns exist is to protect yourself. Another is to feed yourself. Another is for target practice. Even Britian has a marksman team that goes to the Winter Olympics. But, those are not the only points.

It is your choice, of course, to own a gun. I'd say the point of owning a gun is; in the exercise of a fundamental right. This is about the right to choose. The right to choose what is right for you and your family. The point, frankly, is about personal freedom.

For you anti-gun slobbering bags of hot air, see the History of gun registration then confiscation in, I don't know, maybe 21,162,000 places on the WWW; your local Library; in the pages of these things called books; and lastly The Black Book of Communism.

Or, you could do this really really hard work called research and look up the French Black Code, or maybe any of the Laws passed to ensure Blacks could not possess firearms to protect themselves ... oh, hell. You won't do any of that.

willfullyobscure:Does anyone know what made LaPierre go nuttier than a bag full of squirrels at an acorn convention? When he first popped up in the 90s he was a regular Joe Huntinnfishin type, wasn't he? Or maybe they just didn't let him out in public sans muzzle?

Looks like Oklahoma City did it. In 1995, GHW Bush resigned his lifetime membership from the NRA after Wayne attacked members of the Secrete Service and ATF as "wearing Nazi bucket helmets and black storm trooper uniforms" wanting to "attack law abiding citizens."

For you anti-gun slobbering bags of hot air, see the History of gun registration then confiscation in, I don't know, maybe 21,162,000 places on the WWW; your local Library; in the pages of these things called books; and lastly The Black Book of Communism.

Or, you could do this really really hard work called research and look up the French Black Code, or maybe any of the Laws passed to ensure Blacks could not possess firearms to protect themselves ... oh, hell. You won't do any of that.

You emote rather than think.

Thimken be hard. Let's play video games instead

Any proof that has happened on US soil?Not the anti-Blacks laws. No lists were made there. Didn't really need lists.The listing then confiscation thing. That happened?

/21,161,950 of those www hits are the same 5 chat rooms circle jerk posting to each other.

For you anti-gun slobbering bags of hot air, see the History of gun registration then confiscation in, I don't know, maybe 21,162,000 places on the WWW; your local Library; in the pages of these things called books; and lastly The Black Book of Communism.

Or, you could do this really really hard work called research and look up the French Black Code, or maybe any of the Laws passed to ensure Blacks could not possess firearms to protect themselves ... oh, hell. You won't do any of that.

You emote rather than think.

Thimken be hard. Let's play video games instead

Any proof that has happened on US soil?Not the anti-Blacks laws. No lists were made there. Didn't really need lists.The listing then confiscation thing. That happened?

/21,161,950 of those www hits are the same 5 chat rooms circle jerk posting to each other.

And Iran and North Korea have asked the US and UN to not sanction them anymore. Just because a country asks for something, doesn't mean they are going to get it.

Yup. Besides, what's the farking point to have the names?.

Well, you know, if the Mexicans had the names, then the Chinese hackers could look the owners up in Google maps, so that when their paratroopers come after the North Korean magic EMP weapon takes out our entire electrical grid, the very first place they'll go will NOT be to secure military bases where all the big guns and trained personnel are, or the government sites where the hardened communication servers are--it will be to each individual gun owner's home to seize their cache of Glock AK-47 tactical assault rifles and Airsoft handguns! Cant' you see, man, it's all a plot!

....or the mad ravings of somebody who's played way too many recent FPS games and watched too many bad action movies.

Witty_Retort:willfullyobscure: Does anyone know what made LaPierre go nuttier than a bag full of squirrels at an acorn convention? When he first popped up in the 90s he was a regular Joe Huntinnfishin type, wasn't he? Or maybe they just didn't let him out in public sans muzzle?

Looks like Oklahoma City did it. In 1995, GHW Bush resigned his lifetime membership from the NRA after Wayne attacked members of the Secrete Service and ATF as "wearing Nazi bucket helmets and black storm trooper uniforms" wanting to "attack law abiding citizens."

Yep, I was right: production of the M-16/M-4 in total is about 10 million, many of which have been sold overseas or destroyed/worn out.

There are about 59 million men in the US age 18 to 45. Even if you assume half aren't able-bodied enough to fight, there are still 3 times more people then the US military could arm, assuming there were 10 million military guns available.

Assume that the US government decided to confiscate all civilian owned firearms. Let's even grant you the full cooperation of every law enforcement agency in the country and an up-to-date national database. What are the odds of success?Difficulty: Without igniting civil war.