Michele Norris On The Anxiety Of White America And Her Optimism For The Future

Felyssa Ricco stands outside the house in Hazleton, Pa., where she lives with her mother and stepfather, Kelly and Jesse Portanova. In addition to flying Old Glory and other flags, such as "Don't Tread on Me," the Portanovas sometimes fly the Confederate flag, saying it's a way of standing up to those who believe it shouldn't be displayed or who want to disregard America's history.

Gillian Laub
/ National Geographic

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Originally published on March 14, 2018 9:45 am

In its Race Issue, National Geographic magazine examines the state of race relations in the United States, including an acknowledgment of the racism that permeated its own pages for decades. Among the magazine's contributors this month: Michele Norris, former host of NPR's All Things Considered.

Norris currently runs The Race Card Project, in which she asks people to send in their thoughts on race in just six words. When she began the project in 2010, Norris assumed she'd hear mostly from people of color. She was wrong.

"I think what happened, is people felt that they had an entry into a conversation that wasn't always welcome to them," Norris tells NPR's Sarah McCammon. "White Americans — in very large numbers — bought into the project and decided to share their stories."

In her National Geographic story, Norris digs into some of the feelings that white Americans have expressed. Her story focuses on the town of Hazleton, Pa. In the year 2000, the population of Hazleton was more than 95 percent white; today it's more than half Latino.

Interview Highlights

On change being uncomfortable, no matter where it's coming from

When people talked about it, it was often the notion of suddenly being outnumbered — that's a word that I heard over and over and over again. Going to the doctor's office and suddenly looking around and realizing that everybody else is Hispanic. Going to the local Walmart ... and realizing that, "Boy, the things they're selling in the produce aisle are different," or "There's a whole aisle where everything is in two languages, and I never noticed that before." ... "Suddenly it feels like this community that I knew so well" — so what they were saying is that they don't feel like it's "theirs" anymore. ...

And that coupled with economic changes, with jobs disappearing. And that coupled with — you know, the cultural things in a town that has had a very strong immigrant population for decades. There were people from Italy, and people from Ireland, and people from Germany and Montenegro and Slovakia and Slovenia, and they all had their traditions. And suddenly they have to make space for newcomers who come in.

And that has happened throughout decades in America, but when the newcomers are brown, and when the newcomers speak a different language, and when the newcomers are less interested in assimilating in the same way and suddenly speaking English — they want to hold on to their old culture or they want to hold on to their old language ... suddenly the word "immigrant" when it's spoken now doesn't have the same ring to it.

On race as subtext

They wouldn't necessarily say "those brown people," or "those Latino people." There would often be sort of proxy for that — "the food is different, the music is different, the town feels different." There was a large "threat" narrative — safety is a big issue here. People felt like, with the changing community, the crime rate had increased, or that they just didn't feel as safe as they used to.

In some cases it was for a good reason — someone had literally driven a car into their restaurant, or someone had had a wallet taken. In a lot of cases, though, the fear was based on something in the abstract, not something that had actually happened to them — but the fear that if they did go downtown that bad things would happen, or if they did go to the mall that it no longer was as safe as it used to be.

On the generational shift

There was a difference in the way that people who were more advanced in years talked about it, than the kids. Because the kids are in probably the most diverse environment — they all go to the same schools, they play on the same sports teams, they cheer together on the cheerleading squad, to some degree they socialize with each other. ... They had a sort of more direct approach to talk about some of these things than people who still lived in communities where they lived and worshipped among people who looked like them or had a similar background. ...

I remain optimistic, and yet I'm pragmatic. And so I know that when we say that race is perhaps an easier concept for young people ... it's easier, but it's not easy. It's not yet easy. And a mistake that's often made is thinking that because they ... inherited this incredible degree of integration that was completely foreign to just one or two generations ahead of them, that all the problems have been solved. That's not true. ...

I think future is still something that we should be optimistic about, but it might take two, three, four generations before some of this gets easier. And it's not just because of demographics and race, it's also because of the economic tumult that we're facing, and it's also because of technological tumult — I mean, people's jobs are being replaced in large part by technology, and that creates a certain degree of vertigo. So it's not one thing. There are a lot of onions in that stew.

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SARAH MCCAMMON, HOST:

In the same issue of National Geographic, there's a piece by Michele Norris. She's the former host of this show who now runs The Race Card Project, in which she asked people to send in their thoughts on race in just six words. When she began the project in 2010, Norris assumed she'd hear mostly from people of color. She was wrong.

MICHELE NORRIS: I think what happened is people felt that they had an entry into a conversation that wasn't always welcome to them. And it was a place where they could say things that you don't generally say out loud. And so people of all races pulled up to the table. But white Americans, in very large numbers, bought into the project and decided to share their stories. And here are some examples - (reading) white not allowed to be proud. Gay but at least I'm white. Hated for being a white cop. Abuse was invisible because I'm white. Other races resent us white people. Most white people are not racists. White people do not own racism. I unpack my white privilege daily.

MCCAMMON: Norris digs into some of these feelings in her story "The Rising Anxiety Of White America." It focuses on the town of Hazleton, Penn. Since the year 2000, it's gone from being more than 95 percent white to more than half Latino. That change makes some of the white residents uncomfortable.

NORRIS: When people talked about it, it was often the notion of suddenly being outnumbered. That's a word that I heard over and over and over again - going to the doctor's office and suddenly looking around and realizing everybody else is Hispanic, going to the local Walmart and realizing, boy, the things that they're selling in the produce aisle are different. Or there's a whole aisle where everything is written in two different languages, and I never noticed that before. Or the people who are checking me out when I go to buy lumber or groceries, they're different. And suddenly people are speaking Spanish. And suddenly it feels like this community that I knew so well - is what they were saying - is that they don't feel like it's theirs anymore.

And that coupled with economic changes, with jobs disappearing - and that coupled with the cultural things in a town where you had a very strong immigrant population for decades, you know. There were people from Italy and people from Ireland and people from Germany. And they all had their traditions. And suddenly they have to make space for newcomers who come in. But when the newcomers are brown and when the newcomers are less interested in assimilating in the same way and suddenly speaking English - they want to hold onto their old culture, and they want to hold onto their old language - suddenly the word immigrant doesn't have the same ring to it.

MCCAMMON: Michele Norris, as you've had these conversations with white people about the discomfort they feel about the change they see around them, how much did they seem to, in their own minds, connect that discomfort to issues of race?

NORRIS: It was interesting because they wouldn't necessarily say those brown people. There would often be sort of proxy for that. You know, the food is different. The music is different. The town feels different. There was a large threat narrative. I mean, people felt like, with the changing community, the crime rate had increased - or that they just didn't feel as safe as they used to. In some cases, it was for a good reason. Someone had literally drove a car into their restaurant. Or someone had had a wallet taken. In a lot of cases though, the fear was based on something in the abstract - not something that had actually happened to them. And there was a difference in the way that people who were more advanced in years talked about it than the kids.

MCCAMMON: I do want to ask about the next generation because you do talk about that a bit. And I feel like, in general, a lot of these discussions about race seem to sometimes almost end with platitudes that the next generation will be more enlightened, more colorblind or at least more comfortable with difference. Do you share that hope? Or is that in some way a naive hope?

NORRIS: Well, I am optimistic by nature. And yet I'm pragmatic. And so I know that when we say that race is perhaps an easier concept for young people, it's easier, but it's not easy. In fact, there's a body of social research that suggests that young people, despite inheriting this world that is so much more diverse, still sometimes cling to values that their parents had or that their parents' parents had. And yet I think the future is still something that we should be optimistic about. But it might take two, three, four generations before some of this gets easier. And it's not just because of demographics and race. It's also because of the economic tumult that we're facing. And it's also because of technological tumult. I mean, people's jobs are being replaced in large part by technology. And that creates a certain degree of vertigo. So it's not one thing. There are a lot of onions in that stew.

MCCAMMON: Michele Norris is the author of "The Rising Anxiety Of White America" in the April issue of National Geographic and a former NPR host. Thank you so much for joining us.