Nichalus wrote:You have 1 week for discussion, then I will be shutting this thread down.

That's a little extreme. This thread isn't disrupting anyone so why lock it down? Further more 1 week? Have you seen the activity around here? I'm lucky to get one response from someone other than Cadden in one week's time. If I get two I'd be shocked.

Look, I get that you don't like me and that's fine. I'm not asking you to like me all I'm asking for here is fairness. You want understanding from me then please give me some understanding in return. Listen to the points I'm making and consider them fairly. Please don't shut me out just because there was a vote. That's all I'm asking for.

WE created the NEW MBT under the understanding that we are trying to be INLINE with the NEW Canon. So yes, we wait...eagerly, for the next installment of movie or book where we can make easy changes and modifications.

I never said the arguments are invalid. I'm only saying that no one has the unilateral ability to disregard the rules because it's not convenient for them or they disagree with them. That's all. As to the particulars of the potential change, I think we can wait until VIII. Even if laser focused, there's going to be backstory, there's going to be explanation of what happened in the 30 years prior to VII. We've also got at least 1 novel coming out that will touch upon "recent" history, Aftermath: Empire's End. If we look at the release schedule, we'll see that there aren't a lot of books coming out that touch upon the current time frame, I think this reinforces the notion we're going to get more information in VIII.

As it stands, we were already planning on waiting until VIII before revisiting this. I don't see the issue in continuing with that.

Nothing will change if the rule is lifted. Something will change if it is not. I will have to drop a character and lose out on all that story telling potential all because I listed "yes" under Force Sensitive for another character I never intended to be a Jedi.

Mir wrote:I never said the arguments are invalid. I'm only saying that no one has the unilateral ability to disregard the rules because it's not convenient for them or they disagree with them. That's all. As to the particulars of the potential change, I think we can wait until VIII. Even if laser focused, there's going to be backstory, there's going to be explanation of what happened in the 30 years prior to VII. We've also got at least 1 novel coming out that will touch upon "recent" history, Aftermath: Empire's End. If we look at the release schedule, we'll see that there aren't a lot of books coming out that touch upon the current time frame, I think this reinforces the notion we're going to get more information in VIII.

As it stands, we were already planning on waiting until VIII before revisiting this. I don't see the issue in continuing with that.

Mir, you just told me I had no ground to stand on. That is quite literally telling me my arguments are invalid.

Pryde wrote:Look, I get that you don't like me and that's fine. I'm not asking you to like me all I'm asking for here is fairness. You want understanding from me then please give me some understanding in return. Listen to the points I'm making and consider them fairly. Please don't shut me out just because there was a vote. That's all I'm asking for.

See, that is where you have me completely wrong. I speak my mind, and I don't varnish anything. Ask Mir, I've jumped on his ass on more than one situation and we're still friends. Vox is another example of someone that I've pounced on, but I still consider him a friend, even after the badness earlier this year (which reminds me I need to post that...so behind on shit.) I've had my differences with Jag, Hal, hell most people on here, but we're still friends.

You, just take my irritation too personally, and 'assume' I don't like you. I like you Pryde, but you start becoming a little Drama King on occasions that I find annoying, and I call you out on it...which makes you even more frustrated. So please stop assuming a 'hate' you. My hate is reserved for far worse people than you.

I told you that you had no ground to stand on if you voted for the proposal. That's not saying your arguments are invalid. I have no way of knowing how you voted. Which is why the next sentence talks about your potential abstaining. Ultimately the argument about having multiple Forcers is not invalid. It's very valid. But your argument as to why we should change the rule now is invalid.

By the argument you're making, we shouldn't have a restriction on the level of experience for people's characters either because that forces people to lose out on all that story telling potential. If I give you this exception, nothing stops anyone else from challenging that down the road, and using the time argument (which we expressly provided for against) in their favor. Either we draw a line in the sand somewhere to say "This is what we define as our canon" or we have no definition of it. Because the same argument can then be made for control of canon organizations, creating superweapons, and all the other things that the rules prohibit.

Your argument is, if I'm reading everything correctly "I made a mistake but the mistake should be allowed and the rules changed so I didn't make a mistake because I've already been doing it and forcing me to conform to the rules kills story potential."

Edit: We put things into the rules to allow us to change it once we get more information. Not because someone broke the rule either knowingly or unknowingly and wants it changed to benefit them.

Using Anakin as the base example for what other Force-sensitives can do is not a great idea. He was the Chosen One. He was supposed to be special.

Wookieepedia specifically refers to the Knights of Ren as a Dark Side organization. Thus they are Darksiders.

----

Now, I was not there to vote on these new rules, so take that as you will, but you can be certain I would have objected to this one. You can make an argument that since I wasn't around, I have no say in the matter, but to that I would counter that yes I do. I've been a member of this community since the Sony days. I've been away for a long time, true, but really a minuscule amount compared to how long I was active before and we've never held real life being the cause of member absences against them. In all that time, I've never been a troublemaker and I've always tried to keep things civil. Any time I do disagree with someone, I always try to make well-reasoned arguments to support my case.

So Nich, if you like, you can consider my thread civil disobedience to show how unnecessary this rule is even though it never started out with that intention. My thread has had precisely zero effect on the new MBT and that's not about to change after it's ended. I've got no intention of bringing Tulsar or his family into the larger galaxy. Why would I? I told his far more interesting story back in the Legends continuity. Even though she's not part of the story, the same goes for Kalja in case anybody is wondering. They're not the main characters. Clara, Isis, and Hirai are (maybe Tav too, down the line). The family is more of a plot device than anything else to keep the story moving and send a nod back to the original canon. It's a look at what Tulsar's life could have been like if Sivter hadn't succeeded in murdering most of his family. That's not a story you can tell with just two Force-users.

I didn't realize we as a community had grown so myopic that we're considering any Force character, no matter how untrained or inconsequential, to be verboten once we exceeded two. That's ridiculous and not even true to the new canon. This is why I didn't consider that rule when writing the story. None of the Force-using characters of mine in that story are ever going to set foot off of Juoi. They're not characters I intend to follow once the story is finished.

So I ask, where's the harm? How has this story negatively impacted the new canon, or anyone else, in any way? What benefit would redacting all of this do anybody?

Since this has become such a big issues, I am formally requesting that this Rule of Two be changed to become more flexible. You have at least two members who are actively pushing against it. I feel like there's cause to re-examine it. At the very least, I would like to see some leeway for Force characters who are not main characters.

When life gives you lemons, you clone those lemons and make super lemons!

You're putting words in my mouth again. I never said the rule should apply to the level of the character's experience. At worst I suggested that if a character is Force Sensitive and never uses the Force then they shouldn't count towards the limit.

Pryde wrote:You're putting words in my mouth again. I never said the rule should apply to the level of the character's experience. At worst I suggested that if a character is Force Sensitive and never uses the Force then they shouldn't count towards the limit.

I think what Mir is saying that, if you would have brought this up PRIOR to the revealing that you have more than the allowed Force Users, your argument would have been more valid. Now, after the evidence has been revealed, your argument seems more like "Oops, I got caught, but I want an exception now."

Halomek wrote:
Now, I was not there to vote on these new rules, so take that as you will, but you can be certain I would have objected to this one. You can make an argument that since I wasn't around, I have no say in the matter, but to that I would counter that yes I do. I've been a member of this community since the Sony days. I've been away for a long time, true, but really a minuscule amount compared to how long I was active before and we've never held real life being the cause of member absences against them.

Same argument Sokhar and Ducky and others have all used when they returned and didn't like how the then current rules were set up. We will not make changes to the forum based on how we think people who are, at the time, not with us may or may not want things to be. We have no way of knowing if they're going to return. If you want to make changes to it now, that's one thing, but making the argument you're making doesn't hold weight at all. I'm not saying you don't have a say. I'm saying that you should have known better.

Last edited by Mir on Thu Jan 19, 2017 3:44 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Pryde wrote:You're putting words in my mouth again. I never said the rule should apply to the level of the character's experience. At worst I suggested that if a character is Force Sensitive and never uses the Force then they shouldn't count towards the limit.

I think what Mir is saying that, if you would have brought this up PRIOR to the revealing that you have more than the allowed Force Users, your argument would have been more valid. Now, after the evidence has been revealed, your argument seems more like "Oops, I got caught, but I want an exception now."

Precisely. If we make the change simply because it's inconvenient for you and you've already been working on something, then why am I not supposed to make the change down the road when some other part of the rules becomes inconvenient for some one else who also has been working on something?

As to my own participation, you know I've been trying to figure out what the next move in homecoming is. I was waiting on Kevin, but found out on Tuesday that he wants me to push the thread forward. I have no other current threads, as the one thread with Cazzik is on hold as he himself is on hold for real life situations.

Halomek wrote:
Now, I was not there to vote on these new rules, so take that as you will, but you can be certain I would have objected to this one. You can make an argument that since I wasn't around, I have no say in the matter, but to that I would counter that yes I do. I've been a member of this community since the Sony days. I've been away for a long time, true, but really a minuscule amount compared to how long I was active before and we've never held real life being the cause of member absences against them.

Same argument Sokhar and Ducky and others have all used when they returned and didn't like how the then current rules were set up. We will not make changes to the forum based on how we think people who are, at the time, not with us may or may not want things to be. We have no way of knowing if they're going to return. If you want to make changes to it now, that's one thing, but making the argument you're making doesn't hold weight at all.

Halomek wrote:
Since this has become such a big issue, I am formally requesting that this Rule of Two be changed to become more flexible. You have at least two members who are actively pushing against it. I feel like there's cause to re-examine it. At the very least, I would like to see some leeway for Force characters who are not main characters.

As a matter of fact, that's what I'm doing.

When life gives you lemons, you clone those lemons and make super lemons!

Pryde wrote:You're putting words in my mouth again. I never said the rule should apply to the level of the character's experience. At worst I suggested that if a character is Force Sensitive and never uses the Force then they shouldn't count towards the limit.

I think what Mir is saying that, if you would have brought this up PRIOR to the revealing that you have more than the allowed Force Users, your argument would have been more valid. Now, after the evidence has been revealed, your argument seems more like "Oops, I got caught, but I want an exception now."

I didn't get "caught". I didn't even know there was anything to "catch" me on. No one ever said that Force Sensitives counted towards the rule. The rule itself says "Force User". I didn't think labeling "yes" under Force Sensitive for a character that was never going to use the Force would cause any harm but apparently it does.

Halomek wrote:
Now, I was not there to vote on these new rules, so take that as you will, but you can be certain I would have objected to this one. You can make an argument that since I wasn't around, I have no say in the matter, but to that I would counter that yes I do. I've been a member of this community since the Sony days. I've been away for a long time, true, but really a minuscule amount compared to how long I was active before and we've never held real life being the cause of member absences against them.

Same argument Sokhar and Ducky and others have all used when they returned and didn't like how the then current rules were set up. We will not make changes to the forum based on how we think people who are, at the time, not with us may or may not want things to be. We have no way of knowing if they're going to return. If you want to make changes to it now, that's one thing, but making the argument you're making doesn't hold weight at all.

Halomek wrote:
Since this has become such a big issue, I am formally requesting that this Rule of Two be changed to become more flexible. You have at least two members who are actively pushing against it. I feel like there's cause to re-examine it. At the very least, I would like to see some leeway for Force characters who are not main characters.

As a matter of fact, that's what I'm doing.

Cool, and as I stated earlier to Pryde, I don't see why not waiting until VIII is such a big deal.

Because side characters can become main characters. And then we're in this boat all over again.

Pryde wrote:You're putting words in my mouth again. I never said the rule should apply to the level of the character's experience. At worst I suggested that if a character is Force Sensitive and never uses the Force then they shouldn't count towards the limit.

I think what Mir is saying that, if you would have brought this up PRIOR to the revealing that you have more than the allowed Force Users, your argument would have been more valid. Now, after the evidence has been revealed, your argument seems more like "Oops, I got caught, but I want an exception now."

I didn't get "caught". I didn't even know there was anything to "catch" me on. No one ever said that Force Sensitives counted towards the rule. The rule itself says "Force User". I didn't think labeling "yes" under Force Sensitive for a character that was never going to use the Force would cause any harm but apparently it does.

If I'm remembering right, we 'did' discuss the issue of Force Sensitive and Force User, and it was researched on multiple sites, Wookiepeida, Star Wars.com, and others, that there was NO distinction between the two. And this was PRIOR to the vote.

Again you're stifling people's creativity on what ifs and maybes. "We can't do this now because what if this happens down the road?" "We can't make exceptions for NPCs because NPCS can become characters." How fair is it to hold people accountable for things that may actually never happen? You say I shouldn't be allowed to continue what I'm doing now because someone else down the line will make the same argument to continue something they're working on? Well, I look at the forum today and frankly I don't see very many people working on anything. I don't mean any offense by that I'm just a pragmatist. Activity on the board has reached its lowest level since its inception. That's not an opinion it is fact. Now you can say it's because of RL and it probably is, I get that. People get older and they have more responsibilities, I'm not arguing against that. But to take one of your arguments to an extreme if we're going to hold everyone accountable to a potential what if then where does it end? You can literally make the argument that anything we do shouldn't be allowed because it might be abused some day and if that's the case then why do anything at all?

I am not making this request for what may happen some day I am making this request for the here and now. If it becomes a problem some day we change it again.

Nichalus wrote:
I think what Mir is saying that, if you would have brought this up PRIOR to the revealing that you have more than the allowed Force Users, your argument would have been more valid. Now, after the evidence has been revealed, your argument seems more like "Oops, I got caught, but I want an exception now."

I didn't get "caught". I didn't even know there was anything to "catch" me on. No one ever said that Force Sensitives counted towards the rule. The rule itself says "Force User". I didn't think labeling "yes" under Force Sensitive for a character that was never going to use the Force would cause any harm but apparently it does.

If I'm remembering right, we 'did' discuss the issue of Force Sensitive and Force User, and it was researched on multiple sites, Wookiepeida, Star Wars.com, and others, that there was NO distinction between the two. And this was PRIOR to the vote.

I already said I was dropping Jess. I apparently can't do her story anyway because the villain she was going to kill violates the rule.

If people knew how limiting the rule was going to be I wonder how many would have agreed to it. Even I had no idea the villain of a story was going to count or the NPC mentor who eventually dies. I've had to revamp and revise several of my threads already because of this. I have made concessions to you before, Mir, you know that. I have tried my best to stay within the rules and I have not purposefully violated them.

Mir wrote:You still haven't explained why waiting until VIII comes out is so destructive. Other than "It's not convenient."

I have, VIII will not shed any more light on the issue. I firmly believe that. The director had said in his own words that the focus of the film was on Luke and Rey. The theme of the film is family, if anything we learn more about the Skywalkers and that's it. I highly doubt there's going to be any indication that we should lift the rule and in that case it's going to become, "Let's wait for IX now," and when IX doesn't answer the question what do we wait for then?

Furthermore, Disney themselves have made the distinction that there is a difference between "Jedi" and "Force User". In the new canon there are no "Jedi" that we know of but we obviously know of Force Users who are not Jedi. Halo already pointed out Maz Kanata and we don't yet know the fate of Ezra, Kanan or Ahsoka. Maybe they have kids? Who knows? Kanan and Ezra's future may not be so bright because I think they're both still identifying as "Jedi" but Ahsoka does not or at least that's how LFL sees her. If she survived her encounter with Anakin then there's still a possibility of her having descendants in this new canon who aren't Jedi and if this is the case then we are not going to find out about this in a movie.

Didn't say you haven't changed things in the past, Pryngles. I believe I brought it up myself a bit earlier.

So your argument is based entirely on your speculation of what VIII is going to contain within it. Because I can speculate that while focusing on Luke and Rey and having the theme of family, they can also have a lot of talk about the current state of Force users in the galaxy. There can be incidental dialogue and narrative that talks about that as well.

Lastly, just because there are no Jedi doesn't mean people suddenly stop being Force Sensitive. Apparently the Force can lay dormant, otherwise why would Snoke say that there was an "awakening"? There are probably thousands of people out there who are Force Sensitive who will never know because the Force hasn't "awakened" in them yet.

Mir wrote:Didn't say you haven't changed things in the past, Pryngles. I believe I brought it up myself a bit earlier.

So your argument is based entirely on your speculation of what VIII is going to contain within it. Because I can speculate that while focusing on Luke and Rey and having the theme of family, they can also have a lot of talk about the current state of Force users in the galaxy. There can be incidental dialogue and narrative that talks about that as well.

They're not going to have a whole lot of time. They purposefully cut VII to be about an hour and a half because they didn't want the film to keep going beyond the point where it's no longer fun to sit and watch. I'm sure VIII will be the same way, so in the end if it's not important to Luke and Rey's story then it won't be discussed and there are a lot of things we know that are important. Things like Rey's past, where Luke has been all this time, what he's been doing, the Jedi massacre, Ben's fall to the dark side. Do you really think they're going to have time to stop and say, "Hey, so yeah the Jedi aren't the only force users in the galaxy, just FYI."

Since you're so insistent on this then why don't you tell me something. We all agreed to "wait and see" what Episode 8 does before making any further changes to the Jedi limit, that's what everyone voted on. So what happens when Episode VIII comes out and we have no further concrete evidence? We make the rule permanent then? Many people were appeased by the possibility that it might be lifted after VIII, myself included. I'm sure for some people that's probably the only reason they voted on it in the first place.

Well, lifted or increased or made more flexible, either of those outcomes is a more favorable result then the strict, "NO ONLY TWO!" rule we have right now. Which still I had no idea was going to be THAT strict.

Last edited by Pryde on Thu Jan 19, 2017 4:37 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Until the movie comes out those are enormously HUGE assumptions on your part. The director states that the story is going to be about Luke and Rey.

I think that means we are going to learn TONS of what happened at the Jedi academy and Kylo's attack, plus the aftermath of that concerning the Jedi. Plus a ton of background on Rey and who her parents are.

Because learning more about what happened to the Jedi or what happened to Rey, Luke and Ben doesn't necessarily mean we'll learn more about other Force users in the galaxy. At best Episode VII already proved they exist simply by Maz Kanata's inclusion into the film. I just don't believe that Episode VIII is going to tell us more about the Force in the broader galaxy when I already know and have been confirmed by the director himself that the film is going to be laser focused on Luke and Rey.

Pryde wrote:Since you're so insistent on this then why don't you tell me something. We all agreed to "wait and see" what Episode 8 does before making any further changes to the Jedi limit, that's what everyone voted on. So what happens when Episode VIII comes out and we have no further concrete evidence? We make the rule permanent then? Many people were appeased by the possibility that it might be lifted after VIII, myself included. I'm sure for some people that's probably the only reason they voted on it in the first place.

At that point and time then it will be discussed how to proceed, as we said that we would revisit it once the movie comes out or one of the new books states otherwise.

Pryde wrote:Because learning more about what happened to the Jedi or what happened to Rey, Luke and Ben doesn't necessarily mean we'll learn more about other Force users in the galaxy. At best Episode VII already proved they exist simply by Maz Kanata's inclusion into the film. I just don't believe that Episode VIII is going to tell us more about the Force in the broader galaxy when I already know and have been confirmed by the director himself that the film is going to be laser focused on Luke and Rey.

I disagree, and you're making wild assumptions that you cannot prove, anymore than anyone here can disapprove. This is YOUR opinion, not fact.

So unless you can pull the script from your butt, then this argument is a moot point.

Well, eventually one of us will find out we were wrong. In the mean time there is plenty of evidence right now that other Force using organizations exist in the new canon and we've yet to acknowledge them. Where are the Force Wielders or the Dagoyan Council? Canon hasn't explained what happened to them yet. What of the Nightsister that survived Grievous' slaughter of her people? Or her daughter Deathstick? No clear concrete evidence what happened to them, either. There is a huge possibility that other Force Users exist outside the Jedi and Maz Kanata's inclusion into the film only proves that. Furthermore it also demonstrates that it is possible for these organizations to hide from the Empire and the First Order. If it really were so difficult that there is such a low possibility for other Force using cultures out there then the Knights of Ren would have found Maz Kanata a long time ago and already killed her.

Just learned of another one. Star Wars: Uprising is listed as a canonical game and yeah I know the game is not operational anymore but if its canon then its canon. I only bring this up because in the game it was possible to become a Jedi and this is after the Battle of Endor and the events of Return of the Jedi so it's relevant. Further evidence of the existence of Force users beyond Return of the Jedi.

Okay, so this thread rather exploded into a big, pointless, unnecessary argument. I read pretty much all of the first page, then turned to skimming the rest because, let's face it, it turned into fisticuffs over who's opinion of the rules is right and who's opinion is wrong.

This is what I'm seeing, in layman's terms:

Pryde & Halo: "The current rules are too strict and stifle creativity." Okay, sure, I get that. I'm pretty sure I'd be the one to connect most to that statement. (Force knows I tried to fight the controlling or even using the name of a Canon organization in either continuity to the same end.) I get that argument, probably better than most.

Mir & Nich: "These are the rules, black and white. And they've even said there's zero tolerance for deviation." Yeah, I get that, as well. If the law says you can't drive without car insurance, you better bet you'll face the consequences if you do it, anyway. Do I like this law? No, but I am still required to abide by it.

So, instead of shouting technicalities, hypotheses, and opinions at each other (which, frankly, won't change a damn thing in the end, anyway), follow Halo's lead and put in a "petition" to change it. While I do agree that one week seems far too short, given our current productivity around here, I'm not going to argue Nich's decision, either.

The bottom line, we're all adults, here. Some are ancient adults *smirk* but we're all adults. Put it to honest discussion, put it to a recount vote for all I care, or even cite solid, canon fact and proof to back any current claims. (By the way, what directors and studios say isn't always what becomes law. Deleted scenes, changes in the script that result in reshoots, etc. happen. I understand that VIII is in post production, now... I think... but even so, are we to really believe they'll give us the cliffnotes version of the story before they tell it? The prequels were about Anakin, but we got a lot of other info than just him. The OT was about Luke, but we learned about other stuff, as well.) But basing either side of the argument on personal interpretation of the facts and details does nobody any good, here.

My personal take? If the powers-that-be in Disney state there's no difference between a Force-sensitive and a Force user, then we need to follow that. Period. It's no different than, before, when GL's word was law. Which also means we'll need to modify the rules to either include Force-sensitives, or exclude them so long as they do not control the Force. (One can easily argue, based on canon evidence, that a Force-sensitive could use the Force and not be aware they are doing so, but said things have already proven to be incredibly limited in nature.) Whichever is decided, needs to be decided, because with this information in light what was once black and white is no longer.

I will be the first to admit I barely spend any time on the new MBT, either via writing or reading, so I don't know the details behind these instances. Therefore, far be it from me to presume to know the intentions, or lack thereof, in breaking the rules, whether knowingly or unknowingly. However, citing my above argument that we are all adults, here, I can safely say I do not believe either Pryde or Halo meant any "harm" in doing so. But this does go to show, whether we like it or not, this rule does now merit revisiting, whether to make it worded stronger or to modify the restrictions.

My more main concern is not that these are the rules and they're black and white, but more that I want a good reason to change them, not because someone knowingly or unknowingly broke them and wants the issue wiped away. Because then we open ourselves up to this happening down the road.

Whether the rule changes or not, I don't care. I'll prolly abstain from the vote.