Actually M9, I am into cleaning. I've been exploding a *lot* of holds lately. I prefer to do that *before* I put myself in danger, because exploding holds have a fun habit of sometimes launching you backwards rather than downwards. Since I know it's your pet subject, yes, I'm 'primarily a boulderer'. I don't see much difference between cleaning the top of an 8m boulder problem and the first 8-10 metres of a route, particularly where you're going to be in a position you can't downclimb from. Grabbing moss at a high top-out is more than 'oh shit' moment, it's potentially death in some situations.

Cleaning a slabby grade 14 on which you can rest while you dig out shrubs is completely different to cleaning something vertical to overhung on which you might be resting on a hand jam in a dirty wet crack, at best. Or hanging off a free-standing 1 ton block.

So, this is getting weird, but Damo and I agree again.

Let's not confuse legitimate cleaning with an excuse for pre-inspection. One is done because you have a reasonable apprehension that you're going to get seriously hurt or killed; the other is because you think the route is too hard and wanted to 'just go brush off that hold a bit' (yeah right).

Perhaps you've developed a bunch of areas that were almost pristine when you found them...

But I think you'd be surprised how many areas require a buttload of cleaning to be up to scratch. Certainly many existing areas have climbs that get reclaimed by moss and lichen over time (even while, paradoxically, a climb 3 metres to the left can be virtually pristine).

Anyhow in this case the massive amount is due to the size of the area as much as anything else.

On 16/08/2012 davidn wrote:>Perhaps you've developed a bunch of areas that were almost pristine when>you found them...>>But I think you'd be surprised how many areas require a buttload of cleaning>to be up to scratch. Certainly many existing areas have climbs that get>reclaimed by moss and lichen over time (even while, paradoxically, a climb>3 metres to the left can be virtually pristine>>Anyhow in this case the massive amount is due to the size of the area>as much as anything else.

On 15/08/2012 One Day Hero wrote:>Almost all the routes at Squamish, for starters. Some of the best rock in the world, but the natural state is for all the cracks to be completely choked with vegetation. It isn't uncommon for f.a.'s to spend 2-3 whole days gardening each pitch!

As ODH and AJF alluded to, Squamish has to be cleaned all the time. There are about a dozen dedicated "diggers" as they are called, and they utilise all kinds of tools to rebirth or create climbs.

A new method now, mainly for long routes, is to fix them top to bottom so they can be top rope soloed. There is a great line called Polaris which is maybe 10 pitches long, 5.12, and people are lapping the thing on Ushba's everyday. It is equiped with new statics and rope protectors.

On 16/08/2012 davidn wrote:>Actually M9, I am into cleaning. I've been exploding a *lot* of holds>lately. I prefer to do that *before* I put myself in danger, because exploding>holds have a fun habit of sometimes launching you backwards rather than>downwards. Since I know it's your pet subject, yes, I'm 'primarily a boulderer'.> I don't see much difference between cleaning the top of an 8m boulder>problem and the first 8-10 metres of a route, particularly where you're>going to be in a position you can't downclimb from. Grabbing moss at a>high top-out is more than 'oh shit' moment, it's potentially death in some>situations.>>Cleaning a slabby grade 14 on which you can rest while you dig out shrubs>is completely different to cleaning something vertical to overhung on which>you might be resting on a hand jam in a dirty wet crack, at best. Or hanging>off a free-standing 1 ton block.>>So, this is getting weird, but Damo and I agree again.>>Let's not confuse legitimate cleaning with an excuse for pre-inspection.> One is done because you have a reasonable apprehension that you're going>to get seriously hurt or killed; the other is because you think the route>is too hard and wanted to 'just go brush off that hold a bit' (yeah right).>>Speaking of cleaning, anyone used oxygen bleach to destroy (massive quantities>of) moss? Apparently it biodegrades as salt.

?
I think that your post is a sad example & indictment of the present culture all too rampant within climbing these days.

Accepting a climb on its merits whether that be bold, easy, clean, overgrown, loose, solid, etc!, is where the true test of 'self' is to be found.

As soon as a climb is manipulated to suit convenience/need (safety or otherwise), then the climber has short changed the possibilities available to themself, and also for others if the 'enhancements' are of a lasting nature...

Some of the most memorable climbs that I have done involved delicately negotiating my way past 'nature features', that far from detracting from the climbing, actually enhanced it.
~> & this includes the bouldering that I have done!

With your post I more fully realise that I am a minority relic of earlier climbing values that seeks to test myself while at the same time appreciating the location I do that in.

I might have to start a subchapter of the MaccizaODH tradification ofsport?routes club, and start planting out cracks and adding loose blocks!
;-)

On 16/08/2012 davidn wrote:>Some changes you can't help - some slabs would never have been done because>they're completely covered in moss; and some holds come off regardless>of whether you lever them or just try to use them. >>Maybe the difference is some people are willing to clean a line of moss>off a spectacular looking but completely covered slab, whereas you'd prefer>just to not climb it?>>(that's a presumption, but I can't see anyone getting excited about slipping>and sliding on dirty moss)

No. I am happy to climb it if I consider myself up for the self-challenge, including any slipping and sliding if necessary.
More to the point, I also try to avoid the slipping and sliding, and count it a mark of a more versatile climber with a well rounded skill base that can deal with such situations* with minimal impact.
The same goes for fragile flakes/holds. Knowing when not to use them, or how to use them without them coming off, is another skill worth putting in a climbers bag of tricks.

I guess the fundamental difference is that I climb for myself and not for numbers or concerns over any route I choose to do becoming popular. Conversely (my preference), is that climbs remain in their natural state as this adds variety to the challenges one can embrace.

(*These situations can sometimes add grades to the difficulties/enjoyment to be had!)

On 16/08/2012 IdratherbeclimbingM9 wrote:>On 16/08/2012 davidn wrote:>>Some changes you can't help - some slabs would never have been done because>>they're completely covered in moss; and some holds come off regardless>>of whether you lever them or just try to use them. >>>>Maybe the difference is some people are willing to clean a line of moss>>off a spectacular looking but completely covered slab, whereas you'd>prefer>>just to not climb it?>>>>(that's a presumption, but I can't see anyone getting excited about slipping>>and sliding on dirty moss)>>No. I am happy to climb it if I consider myself up for the self-challenge,>including any slipping and sliding if necessary. >More to the point, I also try to avoid the slipping and sliding, and count>it a mark of a more versatile climber with a well rounded skill base that>can deal with such situations* with minimal impact.>The same goes for fragile flakes/holds. Knowing when not to use them,>or how to use them without them coming off, is another skill worth putting>in a climbers bag of tricks.>>I guess the fundamental difference is that I climb for myself and not>for numbers or concerns over any route I choose to do becoming popular.>Conversely (my preference), is that climbs remain in their natural state>as this adds variety to the challenges one can embrace.>>(*These situations can sometimes add grades to the difficulties/enjoyment>to be had!)

Totally agree M9.

I love climbing where other people don't. Easy/hard, solo, partner, self belay, whatever.

On 16/08/2012 IdratherbeclimbingM9 wrote:>>Some of the most memorable climbs that I have done involved delicately>negotiating my way past 'nature features', that far from detracting from>the climbing, actually enhanced it.>~> & this includes the bouldering that I have done!

In places like the Bungles, the rattly blocks lend a certain character and charm, but I don't really like loose rock and vegetated routes at 'normal crags'>>With your post I more fully realise that I am a minority relic of earlier>climbing values.........

I dunno mate, seems that the penchant for grovelling in mank is on some people's genome. Pretty sure Shorty has it. I can enjoy loose shit and vegetation up to about 5% of my total climbing........any more than that and I start getting grumpy. Also, amazing locations make grotty climbing more acceptable. If you relocated all the pitches from the Bungles to Nowra, none of them would be worthwhile.

>.........and start planting out cracks and adding loose blocks!>;-)

Rapping into a route with seedlings, fertilizer, and a bucket of soil is about as 'trad' as it gets!

On 16/08/2012 One Day Hero wrote:>On 16/08/2012 IdratherbeclimbingM9 wrote:>>.........and start planting out cracks and adding loose blocks!>>;-)>>Rapping into a route with seedlings, fertilizer, and a bucket of soil>is about as 'trad' as it gets!

No, planting ground up is more trad - haven't you been paying any attention.

There is a crack in Mt vic called 'die fox die' with an interesting story behind the name, its the only trad route I have fallen on and it was full of mud etc but thats not why I fell. So before trying it again I went down and cleared the path with saws etc. rapped/jugged with nut tool/brushes/rags and flamable liquid (too wet to be effective) totally cleaned it, then never went back!! Its 4minutes drive and 2minutes walk from my house. I imagine after the winds and the type of eucalypts there the track is again no longer. Its a cool little splitter though. I would be interested to know if the roof crack over the other side of the noisy place was freed? a bit off topic though.

On 14/08/2012 One Day Hero wrote:>Look, here's the thing Nick. I don't really care which way people approach>their routes. As long as routes are left as they were found, does it really>matter how anyone else climbs? My feeling is more and more that there are>only two styles of ascent, onsight and dogging. People love to debate how>their particular method of dogging is morally superior to someone else's,>but I can't really be fuched splitting hairs.>>The one thing I really find ridiculous is people saving good routes for>the onsight.......which of course they never feel ready for. In my opinion,>rap inspecting, pre placing, ticking footers, then dogging on toprope,>and finally redpointing is still a far better style than sitting in the>campground, talking shit about how you're "saving that one for the onsight"

That is the most insightful rant I've seen on this forum. In the end I value my onsights so much more than any other tick, but I regret my blanks that coulds have been ticks.

So it appears the rings are still there . .
I met up with the Ringer at the route yesterday - my 6 Hex disarmed his ring attacked and things escalated quickly to thrust and parry of PPD (Powertools of Potential Destruction), only to end with my last cutting blade disintegrating as I cut through his final SDS bit. I reckon the ledge lost a good six inches to erosion in the scuffle.
Once the dust settled and we finished shaking hands, we chatted about the route, the history, the weather etc. So what are we going to do about the route? I don't know? Well I just do what I do, and you do what you do and I respect that - we just happen to disagree. So I guess you just do what you do and then I decide what I do, and at least it is because we truly believe what we do, so that's cool, it's all history . . .
So how about a compromise, and we just chop the first one? Hmm then it just becomes a stick-clip problem and not even a very hard one, so I'd have to chop the other as well - well that just get's us back to square 1, just via the scenic route . . .
Oh well are you going to be there for the onsight fest? Yeah gonna try to make - maybe even have a surprise up my sleeve . . . Me too . . . Cool, see you there . . .
You read all that crap that people have been gushing on the net lately? . . . See ya . . .