Shhh. No. We shouldn’t be allowed to talk about it. Even though the baby is 50% percent ours, we won’t ever talk about it again, if you promise to never talk about female hygiene anymore – which really has nothing to do with us. Oh, and it’s i.e.

In hopes to progress in a forward motion with understanding and sensitivity then, yes. Yes men should be allowed to talk about it, have a mention in it, vote for it and sensibly offer advice to even strangers about it.

I personally feel the ultimate decision is up to the woman carrying the fetus. I think that if men want to have a say in whether abortion is an option or not, they should discuss it with the woman before they unzip their trousers. If they are morally opposed to abortion then they should not take the chance of impregnating a woman whose moral views are not similar to their own.

The most compelling argument against this is that if the attitudes are reversed and the woman wants the child and the man feels she should have an abortion, he is still liable for financial support. But again, this should be discussed before the unzipping and if they cannot agree, then keep it zipped!

I am not personally involved with someone who is a jerk. I am just asking: WHY does this happen? Sometimes I just struggle with the idea that I can one day have kids that a man will just abandon. Maybe because that happened to my mom . I don’t really believe in men in general, but maybe that is because of my culture. In my culture, they are all babies who need to be fed, cleaned up after, and directed to appropriate courses of action.

Maybe that will happen. Maybe tomorrow the earth will be ripped apart by asteroids. Maybe we start to think about the future in a positive manner and maybe something good comes out of it.
It is true that there are a lot of men out there that leave their children.
It is also true that there are a lot of women out there who kill their children.
I can support both arguments.
Try to think positively and start focusing on what is good instead of trying to find an answer as to what makes no sense.
In the end we are animals and this is part of nature. Some animals choose to do the wrong thing.

Men should certainly be allowed to have a voice in the discourse about abortion. Do you think they don’t have a stake in it? Fetuses don’t come from immaculate conception. They are fathered by men. Who has the ultimate decision when it comes to abortion? That would be the woman. But, where men and women really need to communicate is prior to conception. That is when and where it matters. If two people having sex are capable of producing a child from the act, then they both have a responsibility to talk about whether or not they are prepared to have children and if they are not, then they need to take precautions. That is a shared responsibility for any man and woman having sex.

As long as half the DNA is his, he should not only have the right to speak, but to be heard. If you were half owner in something, would you want the other side deciding if you got to enjoy it or not, or was made to pay for it if you didn’t want it?

I can’t imagine saying anyone shouldn’t be allowed to talk about a particular subject. All subjects can be discussed, by anyone. Do I want men (or anyone, really) passing laws about what I can do with my body? No.

Men are involved in the creation of foetuses and they should therefore be involved in both macro and micro discussions about abortion. I think the final decision about whether a woman has an abortion should rest with the woman who will undergo the procedure, but I don’t think fathers should be removed from that discussion. Not all men leave women to raise children on their own or want to shirk their parenting responsibilities. Some women abandon their children and are terrible parents. What if the decision to have an abortion relates to a health issue with the foetus? There are many reasons why women have abortions and there will be occasions where the man’s input is positive rather than negative.

At a societal level, men are part of society. They are fathers. They parent. If we say men are not entitled to discuss abortion because it is the woman who has the abortion, what other topics should we remove men from? In contrast, if something generally only involves men, should women be excluded from the debate? What about discussions regarding sperm donation and any legislation relating to it? I don’t agree with excluding either gender from discussions. I can’t see how that is any different from men barring women from being included in debates, politics, voting etc. as happened in the past. Their voice should be heard.

Of course men have a right to participate in discussions about abortion, but I agree with those who have said that the final choice is ultimately up to the woman. The reality is that while a man is 50% responsible for the creation of that child, he is also the only one of the two who can bow out of the pregnancy and birth after the choice has been made to carry the baby to term. This is why it ultimately has to be the woman’s say. In a perfect world things would work out as @lillycoyote describes; prior to having intercourse both parties would discuss birth control, the potential failure of birth control, and the choices to be made if a child is conceived.

When it comes to legislation regarding abortion, I don’t think anyone, male or female, has the right to dictate what I can and cannot do with my own body. I still maintain that if men were the ones that carried the baby, abortion would always be 100% legal without question, debate, or discussion. Politically, abortion and the right to chose comes down to nothing more than men trying to control women. Excuse my rather jaded perspective.

Although the man may “own” 50% of the child, they do not “own” the woman’s body, and that is where it gets difficult. If the foetus was grown somewhere outside of both parents bodies, then they would both have equal right to talk about abortion.

It’s like anything in life, if you haven’t experienced it, you aren’t truly experienced in understanding it. But of course you don’t need to experience something to have an opinion about it. :P

It is possible to view this question at a variety of different levels, and I’m not at all clear which one this question is most interested in.

On the largest level, of course men are allowed to talk about it. In the American polity, we guarantee everyone the right to have a say with almost no restrictions. That’s a slam dunk.

On the level of do men deserve a say simply because they supply half the genes (assuming that free speech is not a right), one could argue that simple genetic contribution to a new life gives them the right to have a say over the termination of that life.

Then there is the idea that a person must earn the right to have a say. That is, they must be there for the woman during pregnancy and then must be a supporter after the birth, or somehow guarantee they will be a supporter, otherwise it’s up to the woman to decide about the abortion.

Finally, I think, there’s the level of a woman’s right to control her own body. Does she have the final say because it is her own body, or does society have a say, or the father have a say as well?

Personally, I think men belong in the conversation, because that’s all it is: a conversation. Women have the final say, though, because it is their body.

Yes. I might not agree with what they have to say and I might find myself thinking “what would you know” but everyone is entitled to their opinion and I must respect that. The ultimate decision should always be with the woman though.

Yeah of course they should be able to talk about it, I just don’t think they should generally have the final say. Maybe the creation of the baby is 50/50, but, in the end, it is much more a part of the woman and her life than the guy.

There are all sorts of situations, and thus a blanket ban on involving men in the discussion would be sexist at best. Figure, one way or another, it affects the man for at least 18 years, so we have a stake in it too.

Actually, @zensky I don’t agree that the baby is “50% ours”. Yes, the DNA is 50%, but that’s it. The women do the childbearing and the lions share of the child rearing. I think men should have a say, but not an equal say.

@jerv No need to get touchy. Of course there are exceptions (a good friend of mine is a stay at home dad because his wife is a physician and makes more money), but overall, women do the lions share of the child rearing work.

@Rarebear All I meant was that I have seen enough exceptions (in fact, mostly exceptions) that it should be more “case by case” than “you have a penis, so STFU!”. Nothing more. It seems we are pretty much on the same page.

@AshLeigh I don’t see the main gist of this thread being that men shouldn’t have rights. It seems most everyone is saying men should absolutely have a say in it, but that the ultimate decision of whether to carry the baby to term should come from the person who would be doing so – the mother.

@saint My girlfriend pays her exhusband child support. I know you said spousal support, I am just pointing out that support in divorce is a mathemathical equation, not gender linked. Men are usually the breadwinners so they wind up paying more often.

Men are partners in creating life, so yes, of course, they should be “allowed to talk about it”. They have a right to have their voices heard.
But women should have the right to control what happens to their own bodies.

Yes, we are all entitled to opinions, whether agreed with or not. Now child rearing is a life long adventure, supplemented by love and funding, and can not be solved in a minute. But choices can lead to nurture or flee.

Men should not have a say in the laws for a woman’s body. We should have that personal freedom.

Anyone can do the deed, but who is wise enough to deal with the outcome? Not all.

@SuperMouse, perhaps. But the question is should they be aloud to talk about it. They can talk about whatever they please…
Also, the child is 50% theirs… If she were to keep it, he would have to pay child support. So if she wants to kill it, why shouldn’t he have a say in it?

@AshLeigh using a terms like “if she wants to kill it” it offensive and inflammatory. This isn’t a question about where life begins.

If she decides to carry the baby to term the woman is going to have to do so and the man can be virtually unaffected by that. That is why the woman should have the final say. Yes, the man has the right to talk about abortion but the bottom line is that the decision is not his.

@AshLeigh Whilst I agree that people should be careful when having sex if they don’t want to get pregnant, accidents still happen and I don’t think a woman should be forced to go through with a pregnancy she doesn’t want just because an accident happened. Also, the impact of pregnancy on a female’s body can be traumatic which is why I believe the woman should always have the final say. I also believe that, if the man wants the woman to terminate a pregnancy and she chooses not to, he should be able to opt out of supporting the child financial providing he is willing to give up all rights to the child. This way, it works both ways.

@SuperMouse I agree. How many teenage fathers will really stick around to raise a baby with their 16 y/o girlfriends? How many of them will be able to financially support a woman at that age, let alone know how to change diapers, play with a baby, etc.. ?

Honestly, men have less responsibility in the world compared to women. Most of their responsibility is financial (ie. working, supporting), and in this world, even that is no longer required since women have entered that sphere as well. It’s obvious though that no man will be able to raise children, and can only ‘help’ his wife, who is the prime care-giver (even if both are working equal jobs).So why should they have a say in any matters relating to abortion?

@thesparrowI know a couple of single dads who would probably disagree with your “It’s obvious that no man will ever be able to raise children” comment. Ok, they can’t cook them for 9 months and then birth them when they are ripe but they can certainly raise them as well as a woman if they are so inclined.

@thesparrow You lost me there with your last statement. Many many men raise their children. And in our society, assuming you live in America, money is extremely important to protect your family and children. Earning the money is a tremendous stress, burden, and responsibility, that still to this day men, good men, see as being their responsibilty within the family unit, even if the wife works. I am never keen on hearing people downplay the hard work men do providing income for their family, most take the responsibility very seriously, and resent, for good reason, being told their efforts are not worth anything.

If you are around men who are losers, I suggest you find a different group to hang out with.

@Leanne1986 That’s sweet. But generally, for some reason, we feel sorry for single dads because we feel like it just ‘isn’t their job.’ I mean, maybe that’s wrong. People usually feel sorry for single moms too, but it’s not as ‘tragic.’

@AshLeigh Whilst I agree that people should be careful when having sex if they don’t want to get pregnant, accidents still happen and I don’t think a woman should be forced to go through with a pregnancy she doesn’t want just because an accident happened. Logic is, life is often messy. If said woman was driving down the road, felt she had to text, when she knew she shouldn’t, and ended up flipping her car down a gully, losing a leg. Tough, the leg is gone, and you deal with life around it. Is she can deal with that, a baby is not impossible, in 9 months she never has to see that baby again, and unlike her missing limb, can grow up, go to college, and maybe discover a way to make nuclear fission work, or some other great discovery. If she don’t want to live with a ”mistake”, then neither should any man who don’t want to live with it. He should be free to walk away not giving another thought or a dime of his money, should she decide to deal with the ”mistake”, and he doesn’t. That would only be fair.

@thesparrow I feel for anyone that is left to raise a child by themselves if they didn’t choose for that to happen but that doesn’t mean that men can’t raise a children which is what you were implying when you said “it is obvious no man will ever be able to raise children”.

@Leanne1986 Actually, yes, I do agree with it. Even some of the statements my BF has made, such as ‘well, money is another good motivation for becoming a lawyer’ or ‘I want to make sure I get my kids through College’ make me think that as enlightened as he is and as much as I want to tell him that I really don’t care, he does have this mentality.

On that note, it’s really not bad for men to be motivated to be financially secure, even if it’s 50/50. There are a lot of losers out there who just don’t do anything.

In my family history, the women have literally been responsible for almost everything.. that includes being educated, making the money, raising the children. I really have a bias toward thinking women really do DO it all. The guys just like to be babied. And I know not all men are like this. My bf is certainly not like this, and I know a lot of men really are abhored by the fact that they would need to be babied. I’m just saying this is a legitimate reality with a lot of couples, both married and otherwise.

To say that this is not a reality is to be lying and ignoring a fact. I’m not saying this is how it has to be for everyone. I am saying this is still the case for a lot of people. It is, however, also a reality that in some cases men do more than women both in the work force AND in the home (I’ve seen this actually happen). Please don’t think that I’m trying to be one-sided. Most times I come off as that. In the modern world, the latter arrangement is even happening more and more.. and I definitely do not condone a man having to do both more housework and more outside work. For the woman.. I don’t know.. it still always somehow seems more natural to me.

@Crashsequence2012 – they gave a say but the timing is critical. Their input should be discussed before intercourse. That is when their feelings are important. If the man does not agree with the woman on this subject and others relating to a possible pregnancy, then don’t have sex with that woman.

@Crashsequence2012 I think the point is don’t have sex with someone who already knows they will most likely want to abort, if you never would want to and vice versa. It isn’t only about court, pretty much courts are going to let the woman do what she wants, because the abortion laws basically have been fought over the woman’s right to have control over her body.

@Crashsequence2012 the point you seem to be missing is that the fellow should and does have just as much say as the lady. He has 100% control over whether he has intercourse with a woman whose choice about terminating a pregnancy may differ from his. Now there’s some gender equality for you!

@Crashsequence2012 But the fetus is only sucking the life out of the mother. Of course that is an exaggeration, but the baby does take, iron, vitamins, taxes the mother’s organs, can lead to health problems, it is a drain one the woman’s body, sometimes causes permanent health problems or God forbid death. Why does anyone get to decide for a woman whether she gives up these things of her own body? As I said, no one makes you give me blood if I am dying next to you, women should not be forced either.

@Crashsequence2012 So should a man have the right to block an abortion of a woman? Let’s take an extreme scenario where a woman wants to have an abortion and the man does not. Do you feel a man should be able to do a court order preventing the abortion and, if the woman refuses the court order, to throw her in jail until the fetus is too old to abort?

@JLeslieBut the fetus is only sucking the life out of the mother. Would that not make the baby akin to a parasite; something that decided to cling onto the mother unwarranted and not be design to exploit the host for survival? Last I know of biology a baby is a natural function of women. If left alone this ”tumor”, as you would think, will become another complete and independent surviving human. But I guess you are saying it is alright for the baby to suck life through the nipple, and time and energy after it is born, because it surely can’t take care of itself any better.

@RarebearSo should a man have the right to block an abortion of a woman? Who is suffering the greater loss? Should a woman deny man fatherhood, of raising a child he has 50% investment in? What if he doesn’t want to be a father but she wants to keep it, should he be made to pay for the support of it when it was her who wanted to be a parent?

@Hypocrisy_Central Yes, it is parasitic at that point, until viability. The courts tend to use viability as a measure of when it is ok to abort, I agree with that ruling. It kind of is talking out of both sides of mouth, because I think once that point is reached abortion should be illegal except in extreme cases. Certainly if a 7 month+ fetus is delivered it is a separate human being at that point, I would never support aborting that age fetus and smothering it, or something horrific like that. It isn’t that I feel the mother “owns” the fetus and has control over whether it lives or dies, it is that the mother should have control over her own body. Feeding a baby is a different subject when it comes to viability. When a full term baby is delivered and health, you can lay that baby down and it lives. It doesn’t need life support. It breaths, it’s heart beats, it is a separate viable being. Food and other things we do to care and nurture a baby or any human being is something elses.

Well, I think opinions ought to be heard no matter from what corner. And I think it is clear that, if one accepts the notion of objective truth to begin with, then a truth spoken (or written) remains truth, regardless of the gender, or lack thereof, of the speaker or writer. And, I certainly believe it is in anyone’s best interest to consider what truth they may learn from another, and that none who possess it should feel compelled to withhold it, especially if it bears on the human condition, or merely on one other human’s condition. After all, we really are all in this together. One’s loss, or hurt, or pain or joy is everyone’s, I believe to be true, even if one doesn’t get quantum physics OR spirituality.

@Rarebear How is the woman suffering the greater loss? She wants to kill it because she selfishly doesn’t want to carry it after doing the crime to help create it?

A woman should be able to control if a man is a father or not? Then why should a man consider a woman so long as he can best her physically, we can say ”sucks, but that is the way is.”

Why not tell women who want to enter a field where physical strength is paramount and tell them, ”sorry, you just can’t perform at a level where needed, so you better go elsewhere”, why soften the test so more women can qualify then?

@Rarebear The question of if the sorry acting woman is tossed into jail until she gives birth, seeing there is no other option you gave, I would say yes. In the spirit of absolute questions in that same scenario should she be forced to pay him 1.5 million dollars for every year she denied him fatherhood, in which he was ½ the DNA provider, up to 18yrs and $60,000 a year for the 30years (seeing you can’t a life with a child is priceless as the life of the child is priceless) for not being able to be the father he wanted; yes or no?

@Hypocrisy_Central Fair enough. You would toss a woman into jail and force her to have a baby against her will. I think that’s inhumane, misogynistic and frankly insane. But at least you’re consistent in your thinking.

@RarebearYou would toss a woman into jail and force her to have a baby against her will. I think that’s inhumane, misogynistic and frankly insane. But at least you’re consistent in your thinking. I am not going to bite my tongue for anyone, if you want to have a lousy choice to a choice that seemed cruel; I am going to err on the side of life. As I said, the choice I would do is have her pay the father for what she is denying him of. If she could produce a baby all within her own devices, then I say she has total rights, (how selfish as it is) to kill the child or not. At least we both are consistent with our thinking. I would say if a female is woman enough to do the nasty with some dude, she should be woman enough to raise the child that was begotten of it; less she be selfish, self-centered, narcissistic, inhumane, and debased.

@Hypocrisy_Central Okay. So you would give the woman a choice. Go to jail or pay off the father? Is that what you’re saying?

Let’s say the father agrees with the abortion. Then it’s okay?

Most women obviously couldn’t pay the, what was it (scrolling up) 1.5 million dollars. or 60,000 per year. So it would be jail. So you’d be saying it’s the father’s decision whether to throw the woman in jail or not. Nice. The only other place I’ve seen thinking like that is in Saudi Arabia, or in Taliban controlled Afghanistan.

@RarebearLet’s say the father agrees with the abortion. Then it’s okay? It is Not OK (there is still a dead child) but no one is being denied; they are both being selfish and self-centered together.

Most women obviously couldn’t pay the, what was it (scrolling up) 1.5 million dollars. or 60,000 per year. So it would be jail. Oh no, she could not be in jail long enough; any money or real property of value she secures will lust be attached and wages garnished. However and wherever she procures money: lemonade stand, job, inheritance, etc, would be subject to being levied; 20–25% or so. Same goes to tax returns. What she has left she can play Scratchers, Super Lotto, get hot in Vegas, etc, so she can pay it off quicker;—I can see 500,000 hours of community service working also.

@RarebearLet’s say the father agrees with the abortion. Then it’s okay? It is Not OK (there is still a dead child) but no one is being denied; they are both being selfish and self-centered together.

Most women obviously couldn’t pay the, what was it (scrolling up) 1.5 million dollars. or 60,000 per year. So it would be jail. Oh no, she could not be in jail long enough; any money or real property of value she secures will lust be attached and wages garnished. However and wherever she procures money: lemonade stand, job, inheritance, etc, would be subject to being levied; 20–25% or so. Same goes to tax returns. What she has left she can play Scratchers, Super Lotto, get hot in Vegas, etc, so she can pay it off quicker; I can see 500,000 hours of community service working also.

@Hypocrisy_Central you do realize that your ridiculous scheme would only cause more abortions and fewer women to even consult with the sperm donor? FYI, the woman is absolutely suffering the greater loss and taking the greater risk by having to either have the surgery to terminate the pregnancy or go through with the pregnancy. All the man has to do is sit back, bark orders and toss around phrases like “She wants to kill it because she selfishly doesn’t want to carry it after doing the crime to help create it?” WTF? How many women have you known who have been forced to terminate a pregnancy? I have know plenty and I am here to tell you that not one of them did it for selfish reason. For every one of them it was probably the single most agonizing and painful decision they ever made. It is downright obnoxious and demeaning to women. I am thoroughly disgusted.

@SuperMouseI have know plenty and I am here to tell you that not one of them did it for selfish reason. Since this is a community that thrives off seeing the smoking gun, show me three independent studies that concur that out of 100% of abortions done in a given year, say 2010, 50% were done because the health of the mother was certain to be compromised carrying a child to term; I would retract what I said. I won’t hold my breath on it, and I will not accept anything said by NOW or Planned Parenthood viper pits. I can claim disgust too, especially when someone tries to play my intelligence saying it is not a human, or “real human” until it can survive outside the womb apart from the mother; the most asinine belief and certainly a slippery slope if I ever seen one.

@Hypocrisy_Central as usual your logic is flawed. You seem to be saying that unless carrying a pregnancy to term threatens the mother’s life then she can’t be sorry she was forced to terminate a pregnancy. What an ridiculous, sexist, ignorant, outrageous assumption.

Show me a first trimester (or even second trimester) fetus that can survive outside the mother’s womb and I will agree with your equally ridiculous assertion that the fetus is alive when it cannot survive without the life of the mother flowing through it.

Look buddy feel however you want about abortion. Believe it to the core of your being, but until you become a woman and actually have the potential to know what it is like to carry a child, keep your ludicrous ideas to yourself. My body = my choice. Period. End. Of. Story.