for the same reason I prefer my surgeon to meet>professional medical standards - he may still be half-drunk on the day>he cuts me open (or teaches me to climb), but at least I know he should>in theory be able to do a good job :)

On 12/04/2013 rodw wrote:>Some people just enjoy sport more than trad.....me being one of them,>why?

Because you're a pussy, most likely. (sorry, you asked)

>I know a lot more who have done both but prefer sport>as well...and a lot who have done both and prefer trad...everyone is different>and will enjoy different aspects..... categorising a sub set of the sport>and laying claim to why they do what they do is a very simplistic and normally>wrong view to have.

You're kinda half right, there is no objective superiority of trad climbing over sport climbing. However, you can objectively say that, in Australia, the trad climbing is superior to the sport climbing. This isn't a matter of taste, it's incontestable fact. If you gridbolted Araps, the Gramps, and Moonarie, they'd be the 3 best sport climbing areas in the country.

So when you say that you prefer sport climbing (in an australian context), what you're actually saying is that you prefer climbing B grade bolted routes on poxy cliffs over climbing the best routes in the world which happen to be protected by natural gear................and that is just a matter of taste?

On 12/04/2013 One Day Hero wrote:>On 12/04/2013 rodw wrote:>>Some people just enjoy sport more than trad.....me being one of them,>>why? >>Because you're a pussy, most likely. (sorry, you asked)>>>I know a lot more who have done both but prefer sport>>as well...and a lot who have done both and prefer trad...everyone is>different>>and will enjoy different aspects..... categorising a sub set of the sport>>and laying claim to why they do what they do is a very simplistic and>normally>>wrong view to have.>>You're kinda half right, there is no objective superiority of trad climbing>over sport climbing. However, you can objectively say that, in Australia,>the trad climbing is superior to the sport climbing. This isn't a matter>of taste, it's incontestable fact. If you gridbolted Araps, the Gramps,>and Moonarie, they'd be the 3 best sport climbing areas in the country.>>So when you say that you prefer sport climbing (in an australian context),>what you're actually saying is that you prefer climbing B grade bolted>routes on poxy cliffs over climbing the best routes in the world which>happen to be protected by natural gear................and that is just>a matter of taste?

Nicely put Damo. Even the recently released guide to sport climbig in the grampians contain lots of stellar gear routes (which has me wondering about the title in the modern context)

On 12/04/2013 rodw wrote:>On 12/04/2013 One Day Hero wrote:>>On 12/04/2013 rodw wrote:>>>Some people just enjoy sport more than trad.....me being one of them,>>>why? >>>>Because you're a pussy, most likely. (sorry, you asked)>>It was meant to be a rhetorical question actually, and I certainly ain't>gonna start who got a bigger dick argument..I left that childish crap in>the school yard.

Agreed - ODH stop with the childish rants or into the naughty children corner you will go...

To me, climbing and self protecting a climb with removable protection is an 'ethical' stance, and is objectively superior to climbing on pre-placed artificial protection that aids your climbing both physically and psychologically. There is no doubt in my mind about. The same as 'clean aid' is 'ethically' better then using 'fixed gear' - The same as placing gear whilst climbing is better then 'pre-placed' gear - The same as taking a test honestly without cheating rather then having 'cheat notes' to help you with the difficult questions - The same as orienteering using a compass and your ability as opposed to following as signposted track - The same as riding bike properly compared to using training wheels etc etc etc
To quote the Mountain Code -
To climb a route on a minimum of equipment will always be valued more highly than the ascent of a route with perfected infrastructure.
Article 9 Style and Excellence
Maxim: If you do an ascent is less important than how you do it. In every form of climbing, “good style” means to reducing technical aids to a justifiable minimum. Rock climbers and alpinists, who are not capable of making an ascent according to the accepted good practice, should refrain from the attempt.
< . . .>
Article 10 First Ascents
Maxim: A first ascent should only be attempted if the climb can be done in an environmentally sound fashion, if it is compatible with local regulations and in no way affects justified claims of other climbers. The first ascent of a route or a mountain is a creative act that, in many cases, reflects the activists’ particular style.

It is really pretty simple and straightforward that traditional climbing using removable protection placed on lead is ethically and morally superior . . .

On 12/04/2013 ratherbeclimbinV9 wrote:>You just quoted an article on *style* and said it's clear as a result that>trad climbing = moral and ethical superiority?>

Perhaps you should have read the whole of the post, and perhaps interpreted some of the context of that quote! And maybe you should do a web search , find and read the document that the quote comes from - 'The Mountain Code' by the UIAA. I was not quoting an 'article' as in some piece of prose in a climbing mag or editorial commentary etc 'Article' is used here a different context . . .

In fact if you do bother to expand your reading on this issue I would also suggest checking out Games Climbers Play by Lito Tejada-Flores, Philosophy, Risk, and Adventure Sports is also good, as is Climbing - Philosophy for Everyone: Because It's There . . . Also some Hegel might help you - Phenomenology of Spirit or Phenomenology of Mind . . .

Check out some of those, preferably sitting at the bottom of a somewhat remote cliff and then get back to me with your 'opinions' . . .

On 12/04/2013 ratherbeclimbinV9 wrote:>... And that approach is exactly what won't get you signing people up ;)>>Meh, I don't have the energy to attempt a conversation with you to be honest.

Not really sure what you mean by 'that approach' or 'signing up'? I simply suggested you do a little research/refection on the issue . . .
But you have barely conversed anyway except to through a few cheap one-liners, is that a bouldering thing ;~)

On 12/04/2013 The good Dr wrote:>Nicely put Damo. Even the recently released guide to sport climbig in>the grampians contain lots of stellar gear routes (which has me wondering>about the title in the modern context)

The title of the guide is Sport Crags not Sport Climbs. It covers the best crags that contain sport routes (and any trad or mixed routes at those crags). A bit confusing I guess, but as Damo said missing out on doing the trad/mixed routes in the Grampians is missing out on many of the best routes!

I certainly think that Australia has far more quality trad or mixed climbing than sport - but that's fine by me if people choose not to do it. I rarely have to change plans because my chosen routes are already taken and I quite like it like that.

Sounds all a bit aliens are coming to get me. or the sport climber zombie apocalypse. I'm not having a panic attack at the imminent complete retroing of all the classics at the Mt. There's enough controversy over a few anchors already.

I remember a few years ago seeing a few attractive crack lines at Thompsons Point Nowra that were heavily bolted. Are these still around, or have they been chopped?

It's sad to see such lines bolted when they could be easily protected on natural gear, but when you look at the broader Nowra climbing scene I can see why these were drilled... what's another 8 bolts in a sea of many many more?

true there are quite a few clubs already, but there a long way from me. if there was a node close by than i would probably join.

a bit of reasonable inter-club rivalry cant be bad for pushing along the recreation too. i wouldnt think it a clubs domain to cut bolts tho. running events to encourage people to take on the trad style or climbing events to raise $ for rescue squads would be good.

On 12/04/2013 Zarb wrote:>I remember a few years ago seeing a few attractive crack lines at Thompsons>Point Nowra that were heavily bolted. Are these still around, or have they>been chopped?

Nope, in fact even more of the cracks have been bolted in the last year. Pity, they were some lovely splitters. Prior to the retroing I probably did the only trad ascents of these in the last decade though...