Juncker drops Greece, bets on Macedonia

European Commission President Jean-Claude Juncker wants to put the EU’s southern frontier in all but name in Macedonia, not Greece.

In a letter sent Monday, Juncker backed Slovenia’s proposal for EU support to reinforce the Macedonian border with Greece to stem the northward flow of migrants. Under this plan, most migrants who got to Greece would stay in place, taking pressure off transfer countries but eventually also from Austria and Germany.

“I welcome your suggestion,” Juncker wrote to Slovenia’s Prime Minister Miro Cerar, assuring him of the Commission’s support for his plan for all EU countries to “provide assistance to the Former Yugoslav Republic of Macedonia authorities to support controls on the border with Greece through the secondment of police/law enforcement officers, and the provision of equipment.” POLITICO saw a copy of the letter.

As Macedonia isn’t a member of the EU, Juncker said EU countries would have to reach bilateral agreements with the government in Skopje to dispatch police to the border with Greece. The rules in place for the EU’s border protection agency only allowed for missions within the EU, not for the “deployment of officers in the framework of a Frontex joint operation on the territory of a third country.”

Juncker’s proposals for strengthening Frontex, made last December, would address this “shortcoming,” as Juncker said, and pave the way for Frontex missions outside EU territory.

In the letter, Juncker said countries along the Western Balkan migration route, whether EU members or not, must stop “waving through refugees without informing a neighbouring country,” which is “not acceptable.”

Greece has been harshly criticised by Germany and Austria, who warned that it could be excluded from the Schengen zone unless it did more to control its southern as well as northern borders.

Juncker stated that access to countries all along the route should be denied to those not eligible for asylum or international protection. With regard to migrants who have already made it to Europe, EU states “and non-EU countries on the Western Balkans route should also actively prevent third-country nationals from leaving their territory in an unauthorised manner by crossing the border outside the border crossing points, or before their legal status is determined,” he said.

Greece’s minister for migration, Ioannis Mouzalas, told the Financial Times Monday that Athens had not been consulted on the Slovenian plan.

“We do not intend to become a cemetery of souls here. We cannot understand what kind of policy it is that a country would close its borders with Greece,” Mouzalas said.

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charlie-papa

To start with there is no such a country “Macedonia” may in your dreams and probably you mean FYROM.
Greece is not responsible for the creation of refugees and neither has any obligation to undertake their accommodation.
Those who created the Syrian war/havoc and obliged families to run out of their homes to try save their life, should now also undertake to provide asylum and protection.
Those are USA along their allies Turkey, Saudis, British and Germans who supplied for profit the arms and ammunition.
European Commissioner mr. Juncker better have another drink and then go in front of his mirror
on it. Hypocrites .

*by the same logic next comes Italy

Posted on 1/26/16 | 6:26 PM CET

charlie-papa

……go in front of his mirror and spit on it……..

Posted on 1/26/16 | 6:31 PM CET

Nick the Greek

Harsh (Germanic) criticism(s) of Greece, voiced through Slovakia and other such like (satrap) countries regarding the refugee crisis, has been duly noted at the highest echelons of diplomatic office.

The world watches Greece doing it’s utmost with limited resources being criticized by Hermanic-Europe for not doing enough!

Shameless…utterly shameless, the duplicity of it!

Posted on 1/26/16 | 7:58 PM CET

Angela Burqa

@charlie-papa

Yes, there is, but you are free to keep deluding yourself with your funny Greek pretenses to the name. Sooner or later you will have to drop them. In the meantime work try harder on paying off your debts and keeping the unwanted migrants off Europe. Unless you want to be kicked out of Schengen now. Come to think about that you must be really wanting your Grexit. First euro, now this. I guess you will be let go sooner or later. And I am not even German nor Macedonian (yes, not FYROMian, since there is no such country)

Posted on 1/26/16 | 8:31 PM CET

Angela Burqa

@Nick the Greek

Lol, another one. Dude, go do some work on your vocabulary. “Satrap”, hehe. The Greeks, sloppy as always in anything they do

Angela Burqa…are you for real..?..First and foremost..there is NO country called “Macedonia”..that is a figment of George Bush and the US state/foreign Department imagination for geopolitical gain, if we are to believe any of this garbage then Socrates was not Greek, the Olympian Gods were not Greek, and all the historians of the past-all of them..were liars…..so let’s call that country by it’s proper name..REPUBLIC OF VARDARSKA BANOVINA…Secondly you must be past your bed time, or you flunked logic and sense in high school..because your educational level is low, otherwise you would have known the Migration of refugees was caused by the US and it’s allies in the illegal war on Iraq, George W. Bush opened pandora’s box and now the world will suffer…Thirdly people like you are naive and blind to history’s lessons..The Debt Crisis facing Greece is is a sham, 9 out of every 10 Euros given to Greece actually goes back to the Bergemeisters in Brussels and their Cartel of Predatory Capitalists…wake up…stop drinking Koolade…

Mr Junker…kindly take a flying hike..!..you and your predatory capitalist bergemeisters in the Brussels Cartel will be found accountable…your day is coming…

Posted on 1/26/16 | 9:35 PM CET

edi

the last time arab refugees came here 150 yrs ago, they were baptized and than named as greeks and than as ancient “greeks”. we macedonians simply call them “muhajirs”. if you want to put the EU border on macedonia, do it in geographic therms for gods sake. below mount olympus.

Posted on 1/26/16 | 10:00 PM CET

Nick the Greek

@ edi – Turkoslavic Monkey

FYRoM is not Macedon. FYRoM-language is not Macedonian-language. FYRoM inhabitants are not Macedonian.

FYRoM is where Kemalovic Abdullovic Goranovic lives.

Macedonia is where the Greeks live – >3 Millenniums.

Posted on 1/26/16 | 10:32 PM CET

Aleksandar Makedonski

Thanks greetings from Macedonia … Hell Ass … 🙂

Posted on 1/26/16 | 10:44 PM CET

Ren

@edi
you ignorant, ignorant lame excuse for a human, Olympus always was and is Greek, Macedonia, strictly geographically, is in Greece. Your also lame excuse for a nation is doing what it always does, being a vulture in every aspect of its existence.
Besides, you ignorant, ignorant man, the point here is how conveniently some of the Europeans in charge think it is good -for any party involved- to have in its union a country to serve as a storage facility. And in fact how utterly ironic and illogical it is to say that “taking pressure off transfer countries but eventually also from Austria and Germany.”. Perhaps the writer of this, along with Mr Yunker and edi, no not mr. just edi, could explain why Greece, a country suffering and under dept, as you very well remind us, is more equipped to deal with this “pressure” than the robust western European countries? The country has no resources in order to help these people, this is a given based on the crisis you very accurately describe. Then why, in God’s name do you think a grandma from Lesvos or Lemnos, or a child from Athens donating his clothes and food is more fit to deal with a humanitarian crisis, rather than the German, English or Austrian government? Because it comes down to this.
It is a known fact that while the robust country of England that adopts a new Apartheid system for the total of 20.000 refugees its has received, a country such as Greece has welcomed and cared for more than 400.000 the past 10 months alone. And the argument isn’t mainly about Greece, but about how on earth will these people be supported in order to stand on their own two feet?
But I forgot @edi. It is not your problem, you just shut them out, as it not the Turks’ problem, they just shove them to a rigged boat and send them to die, only after they take their money (maybe Denmark would like to weigh in on this, create an evil club or something). At the end it is never the US lackeys’ fault, and that’s you edi, that’s the whole reason your country exists, you ignorant, ignorant man.

Posted on 1/26/16 | 10:46 PM CET

zelko

to start with 134 countries say there is a county macedonia

Posted on 1/26/16 | 10:58 PM CET

Nick the Greek

The idea, the thinking and the logic…to erect fences in FYRoM in order to isolate Greece, are Germanic in origin and voiced through West-Slavian channels, predominantly through Slovakia.

Posted on 1/26/16 | 11:15 PM CET

Nick the Greek

The Slovenian plan, the Slovakian plan, the Tschechien plan…or any plan designed to isolate Greece by erecting fences in FYRoM requires unanimity between like minded countries.

It would be interesting to see which EU countries side with the ‘West-Slavian’ contingent against Greece.

Posted on 1/26/16 | 11:56 PM CET

Kate

Fortunately our country is called Macedonia and we are very proud to call ourselves Macedonians.We do not want to argue with any other countries,we want to spread love to other people.PEACE

Posted on 1/27/16 | 1:32 AM CET

Johnny D

Do tell girlfriends, is Slovenia or Austria gonna send “forces” to the Greek/ FYROM border? Lol, I bet you the biatches run away at the first sight of a Greek leopard. M-rons.

Posted on 1/27/16 | 1:59 AM CET

Johnny D

Katie honey, having purchased numerous contemporary books addressing the matter of Macedonia and the Macedonians, I can safely and thankfully say that you and your type are the only victims of your state sponsored propaganda. That is to say, your relentless state sponsored propaganda has failed to rub off on anyone other than yourselves. Funny that, eh. Lol.

Greece is not European culture and contry,it never was and it will never be.The Europe fence snould be between real Macedonia border with Greece,wich is 200 kilometres south of today Republic of Macedonia.

Posted on 1/27/16 | 3:25 AM CET

Johnny D

Hey Skoupidia, whilst it might be personally satisfying to immerse yourselves in the fraudulent musings of the likes of Stefov, Grezlovski and Rossos (Skopian propagandists and malakas all), you might find this small sample of what the rest of the contemporary world knows and understands of ancient Macedonia, Macedonians and Macedonian history an interesting learning experience. These quotes are all from modern general sources – consciously, deliberately so for my purposes here. Some of the sources relate to Greek history, some not. More to the point though, the authors are opinion leaders and cultural elites involved in their various fields of endeavour and this is what they understand from their learnings. Like I said before, this is what the rest of the contemporary world knows and understands. Read on and weep Skoupidia.

ON THE GREEKNESS OF ANCIENT MACEDONIA AND MACEDONIANS (SOME MODERN GENERAL SOURCES TO CONSIDER)

“Suddenly, and very visibly, he was an ally of CLEOPATRA, THE GREEK QUEEN OF EGYPT, ….. etc” (Source: Stothard, P, Alexandria: The Last Nights of Cleopatra et al)

“Alexander’s vision of a unified Europe and Asia was evidently one in which Europe would have the undisputed upper hand. Yet, LIKE MOST GREEKS OF HIS TIME, ALEXANDER’S contempt for Asia was at best ambiguous.” (Source: Pagden, A, Worlds at War, Oxford University Press)

“Eight hundred years on, and the fame of Alexander the Great still blazed undiminished. To many, and not only in the West, he remained a figure of incomparable glamour: KING OF A ONCE-BACKWARD GREEK KINGDOM BY THE TIME HE WAS TWENTY; master of the empire founded by Cyrus five years later; dead, having marched to the limits of the world, at the age of thirty-three.” (Source: Holland, T, In the Shadow of the Sword et al)

“What was just possibly a genuine tragedy in his life became an opportunity to make an ever closer identification with THE MOST FAMOUS GREEK OF THEM ALL, ALEXANDER.” (Source: Speller, E, Following Hadrian et al)

“Alexander the Great spent his brief life trying to bring back the heroic world of Achilles. THE LAST FLOWER OF HELLENIC GREATNESS, there was a wild and manic desperation to his adulthood as he flashed – a brilliant, unforgettable star, across the stage of world history.” (Source: Carroll, J, Greek Pilgrimage et al)

“Ptolemy’s greatest rivals were the two other successor dynasties to Alexander’s empire, the Antigonids in Macedon and the Seleucids in Syria and Asia Minor. THOUGH SHARING THE SAME MACEDONIAN GREEK HERITAGE, their territorial ambitions would clash for centuries with those of Cleopatra’s family until Rome finally subdued them all.” (Source: Preston, D, Cleopatra & Antony et al)

“But when, at the behest of Ptolemy (GREEK KING OF EGYPT and a great patron of the arts and sciences), ….. etc” (Source: Rieu, E V (translator), The Odyssey – Homer et al)

“Cleopatra was born in 69 BC, a descendant of Ptolemy I (r. 323-283 BC), A GREEK GENERAL OF ALEXANDER THE GREAT (r. 336-323 BC), who ruled Egypt after the Macedonian ruler’s death in 323 BC.” (Source: Gold, C, Women Who Ruled: History’s 50 Most Remarkable Women et at)

“After Alexander’s death in 323, one of his generals, Ptolemy, assumed the title of pharaoh, FOUNDING A GREEK DYNASTY that lasted for nearly 300 years.” (Source: Meredith, M, The Fortunes of Africa et al)

“Back in 48, midway through the civil war, he had met with the RULER OF THE ONE GREEK MONARCHY permitted by the Republic to subsist in a nominal, if enervated, independence: CLEOPATRA, THE QUEEN OF EGYPT.” (Source: Holland, T, Dynasty: The Rise and Fall of the House of Caesar et al)

“Surprisingly, this defeat did not mark the end of Agathocles. He asserted his power as ‘king of Sicily’, taking this novel title IN IMITATION OF THE GREEK KINGS WHO, STARTING WITH PHILIP AND ALEXANDER OF MACEDON, had established themselves as rulers of the eastern Mediterranean.” (Source: Abulafia, D, The Great Sea: A Human History of the Mediterranean et al)

Like I said before, this is what the rest of the contemporary world knows and understands. I note that I presently have quotes from a further 7 to 10 sources to add here. Lol.

Posted on 1/27/16 | 3:31 AM CET

Jack Hatzi

Umm…wasn’t it Germany who proclaimed to the 800,000 refugees to all come to Germany and then Belgium, Demark and Sweden? Then 48 hours after Germany rolled out welcome mat, Germany abruptly slammed shut the border causing a bank up of refugees in Austria, FYROM and Greece. It was Germany who encouraged the refugees to come to Germany and now European countries blame Greece. Never mind the fact that the Turks transported all 800,000 refugees to the shores of the Aegean, took thousands of Euros to get a seat on a boat. But of course blame Greece while its bankrupt issuing decrees to Greece spend more money to house the refugees. European idiots, Greece can not feed its own people let alone refugees. You want to blame someone, blame Germany who encourage all 800,000 to come to Germany

Posted on 1/27/16 | 4:26 AM CET

Kate

Why the name Macedonia was banned in Greece until 1987? My grandparent was born 1915 in Macedonia,his name was Makedonce.This is before Yugoslavia existed.I don’t need to read any books.Anyone can write whatever they want.I can look at my family history.Just check what happened in 1913 with Macedonia.Was split in 3 parts.And the ethnic cleansing in 1947,to Agean Macedonian in Greece.

Posted on 1/27/16 | 9:40 AM CET

Jeff Alders

Juncker along with the rest of his Junck namley Merkel et al should be ring fenced into the realms of stupidity. Merkel welcoming refugees by putting up fences and marooning her guests(Refugees in cash strapped Greece) Merkel and her braindead cronies will signal the end of Germany and the EU. She wants take Greece down first. then one by one the rest of the EU including her own country Germany

Posted on 1/27/16 | 10:32 AM CET

charlie-papa

dear Kate, on 1987 nothin was banned in Greece on the opposite Greece was fighting for Macedonia,
and according to historian Victor Berard (self called as pro_Bulgarian) on year 1887
in the area of Monastere were 284 Greek schools with 18.451 students, and within Skopje 9 Greek schools with300 students….. what he says in his book “On peut de l’ effort vraiment gigantesque de l’ Hellenisme Macedonien”
On 1903 in the same area there were 984 Schools with 58.000 students, and on 1907 increased to 998 schools with 1463 teachers and 59640 students.
Those are the facts whc some trying to distort making stupid propaganda

Posted on 1/27/16 | 11:26 AM CET

Johnny D

Katie honey, the 1988 thing is another lie. Indeed it is one of the foundation lies of Bulgarian Macedonism. I personally have four Greek geography and history texts published between 1974 and 1980. In those texts Greek Macedonia (historic Macedonia) is identified as Macedonia, is illustrated as Macedonia and is discussed as Macedonia. Others I know have older such texts. Indeed, on the Net you can find examples going back decades. So much then for this lie, eh..

Posted on 1/27/16 | 11:26 AM CET

george

The majority of the comments are again about the name controversy, so sad. Meanwhile, the original issue described in the article receives no attention…

Posted on 1/27/16 | 1:21 PM CET

King Alexander

Makedonia airport in Thessaloniki has been called Makedonia for a longer time than fyrom. Ashoka’s edict calls the Macedonians kings Ionians. But even the stones know who the Macedonians were yet in Skopje they only know there lies. 134 countries recognise a lie that’s how foolish the world has become.

Posted on 1/27/16 | 2:23 PM CET

Nick the Greek

Those who indulge FYRoM by calling the place ‘Macedonia’ and calling ex-Yugoslavians ‘Macedonians’ simply prolong a name dispute that is now in the middle years of it’s third decade…still unresolved.

Children, Pupils and Students in FYRoM wrongly believe they are Macedonians, descendants of Alexander the Great and the ancient Macedonians from antiquity.

Sometimes you have to be cruel to be kind…call a spade a spade. So FYRoM is not Macedon. It is Paeonia and then Dardania north from Skopje. Common knowledge in the West.

John

@Kate…Kate you are more Martian than Macedonian…be proud of General Tito and Joseph Stalin who concocted a plan to divide Greece and have access to the Mediterranean sea through Thessaloniki…. by inventing a name change to the province of Vardarska Banovina in Yugoslavia…I have paper money dated 1956 with Alexander the Great on it..least you forget..Venizelos said” avant tout Thessaloniki..”…try to read history and not propaganda from your morons in Government that have been the laughing stock of every historian in the world…and keep building Disney land in Skopje while your people starve…..The Migration of refugees is a US problem..created by the Bush Neo Cons, and now Germany and it’s satrap Austria (the only countries in the EU zone to have positive GDP-what does that tell you??) are complaining about the handling of migrants that are pushed on to Greece by the Turks who benefit from EU money and have refugee camps where they throw people into the ocean instead of feeding them, what mindless fools!!!!!!!!

Posted on 1/27/16 | 9:44 PM CET

Johnny D

If you’re not prepared to address yourselves to Turkey, then you’re not prepared to address yourselves to the problem. However, north west Europe’s hypocrisy is quite understandable. Turkey’s overall imports are worth around 240 billion US dollars. Greece’s overall imports are worth a mere 48 billion euros. Furthermore, is it not the case that the German Chancellor’s own words fuelled the problem. Of course it is. You keep going this way and your poodle Tsipras (and the alternative poodle Mitsotakis) will soon be swept away by the tide of events. What follows next may not be to your liking.

Posted on 1/27/16 | 11:15 PM CET

zoe

I have a dream….one day we will wake up and realise that there is no more Juncker ….

It all seems reminiscent of the retreat of the French and then the German armies from Moscow, moving backward from one country and then the next, will the line be held in Berlin or Brussels?
And when it is all over, will the perpetrators of this crime against humanity be sent for trail in the Hague.

Posted on 1/27/16 | 11:53 PM CET

Alexandra @

Who cares what Greece thinks.As long we are called Macedonians and live in a country called Macedonia.No books can change our status today.We are free and democratic country.

Posted on 1/28/16 | 1:10 AM CET

wtvr

@Angela Burqa
You have completely mixed up different issues. Are you into Greek salad? Only if you knew that Macedonia is Greek word and means something. You only comprehended as a name. You are an ignorant amongst others. I personally don’t care about the name. All I care is that EU is a complete failure and is trying to find excuses all the time. Yes blame Greeks for everything. Just PATHETIC

Posted on 1/28/16 | 10:29 AM CET

wtvr

EU must members especially Greeece, Portugal, Italy and Spain must understand the role of Germany and its satellite countries such as Slovakia etc. I think it is time to put things like it was before. No euro whatsoever. It goes the wrong way. By the way I hope British people WON’T join. Just don’t make this FATAL mistake. Although I don’t like Cameron. He is 1000% right on this matter.

Posted on 1/28/16 | 10:38 AM CET

Nick the Greek

If fences are built in FYRoM to isolate Greece then inverse logic dictates that fences can be built in Greece to isolate (block) FYRoM. The Slovene plan in the end may do more harm to FYRoM than good. Why ?

Because No access to Greece isolates the Western-Balkans…No access restricts South-Slavs from travelling to Macedon, the land of Alexander the Great and the ancient Macedonian from antiquity.

The Slovene plan, like the Slovak plan, and the Tschechien plan, in the end, will do more harm to FYRoM than good, because it keeps the place undefined and undistinguished…somewhere between the European Union and Macedon, Northern-Greece.

First of all this country that the EU are suggesting to help is known as FYROM and not Macedonia, second, the problem is not with Greece its with Turkey, either get tough with the Turks or shut the hell up. Turkey is making millions and millions in shipping these migrants to Greece and they have also have received over 3 billions euros from the EU to keep all these migrants in Turkey, money well spend.. LOL!!!!.. The EU is a joke!

Posted on 1/29/16 | 4:04 AM CET

ble bales Turkoglou

Greeks like Charlie papa focusing on his delusion of grandeu identity by once again talking about identity & the name issue instead of the problems his own country has caused to Europe/Germans ie; EU debt, non payment of submarines, 2 year old tantrums when they don’t get their way & most recently allowing a million migrants to swiftly pass the mighty Hellenic army they pretend they have with a few ISIS members along to boot that caused havoc in France….plus God knows how many more. I say, boot Greece out of Shengen & bring Macedonia into the EU & NATO because clearly they are working with Western Europe. Greece is yet to decide which side it’s on.

Posted on 1/29/16 | 1:18 PM CET

Nick the Greek

FYRoM in the EU – Think about it…Now Think gigantic warehouse for Turkish made goods rebranded!

ble bales Turkoglou

@Nick the ?
Remember that when the Ottomons reached the gates of Vienna on the first 9/11 in 1683, that the Greeks were fighting against “white Christianity’ with their Ottomon brothers. Maybe that is why so many Greeks cheered on the second 9/11 in 2001. Remember that the Greek fans booed during the minute of silence for the victims at a football match in Scotland the week after 9/11.

Now, you need to be out of Shengen and deal with the people you supported that hate Western Europe. Macedonians don’t have that Middle Eastern mentality I’m sorry to tell you that.

Posted on 1/29/16 | 10:31 PM CET

Nick the Greek

@ ble bales Turkoglou = Kemalovic Abdullovic Goranovic Monkey

Posted on 1/29/16 | 11:03 PM CET

ble bales Turkoglou

@Nick the ?
Just by your civilised response it’s confirmed how Greece today is the ‘cradle of civilisation’. Thank you for showing us that.

Posted on 1/30/16 | 11:40 AM CET

Nick the Greek

@ ble bales Turkoglou

Greece is the Cradle of Western Civilization, this is is a fact…an academic reference point. And who can blame Greeks for reacting the way they do towards the bigoted.

Civilization in the Haemus (Balkan) peninsula never properly recovered since the coming to Europe of the eastern-asiatic oriental musulman-Turk.

Posted on 1/30/16 | 7:46 PM CET

Nick the Greek

For the record…to those who push for a Macedonia outside of Hellenism. There can be no Republic of Macedonia just as there can be no Republic of Sparta, Republic of Argos, Republic of Athens, Republic of Corinth or Republic of Thessaly – All of these people-names and place-names belong to Hellenism. FYRoM is not Macedon. FYRoM language is not Macedonian. FYRoM inhabitants are not Macedonians. Respect Macedonian Hellenic identity.

The Greekness of the Macedonians is now a closed subject, no longer up for debate. Macedonian Hellenic identity rests on volumes of academic literature that document (i) the creation of the Kingdom, (ii) the rise of the Kingdom, (iii) the development of Macedon as world power in antiquity. Macedonians exported Hellenism, the culture, language, knowledge and wisdom of the Greeks eastwards, to the farthest reaches of the ancient-world…as a consequence, Macedonians Hellenized more peoples in more places than any other Greek ethnos. No credible person of worth in the West, from politics, diplomacy or academia challenges this view. Macedon, for politicians, diplomats and academics is Greek Kingdom inhabited by Greek-speaking Hellenic-peoples from since the times of King Karanus 808-778 BC. There are no political, diplomatic, or academic encumbrances to challenge this world view – the subject is now closed, no longer up for debate. FYRoM calling itself ‘Republic of Macedonia’ has to be pitted against this backdrop, in context of receding acknowledgement of their recognition.

Things have changed since 2004 when anti-Hellenic advisor’s in the American administration of GW Bush, wrongly advised the President of the United States of America, the Chief Protector of Western world, to afford recognition to minor Slavic country that harboured core fundamental deep-seated anti-Hellenic, anti-Western tendencies. The Western view of FYRoM now, is that of trouble-maker seeking to join Western-worlds most prestigious economic and security structures in order to destabilize Western civilizations cultural-historical foundations, on membership of NATO and the EU.

FYRoM viewed like cultural threat to Western civilization firstly appears like idea born direct from cold war era when these things were taken far more seriously. The idea though, is not that way too fantastic to imagine, considering that FYRoM ‘s existence rests on the twin pillars of revisionism and pseudo-history…two corosive factors that aid in the erosion of Western Civil Societies common understandings of shared common heritage. Like the Trojan horse, FYRoM enters the EU and NATO to reek havoc on Western-worlds cultural-historical narrative, the basis on which Western cultural foundations rest. Small FYRoM alone could never have achieved that. The West was already infiltrated with anti-Hellenic, anti-Western mind-architects working to bring Western civilization down in order to usher in something different, something global, something cultureless, something multicultural, with different set of values and principles based on moneterism, economic gods and political idols.

FYRoM taught the West something…something important – the value of culture, of shared common heritage, of belonging to like-minded extended people-group with same similar view-point and principles. Gone, are those anti-Hellenic, anti-Western mind-architects, gone too, is the idea that Western culture can be replaced with something global void of principle and of value. FYRoM had a roll to play in that picture, to erode Western Civil Societies common understanding of shared common heritage. FYRoM now though, has no script, no roll, no function, in todays current political reality.

Posted on 1/31/16 | 1:00 AM CET

Voden

If Macedonia is really Greek as most Greeks commentators here claim, then please explain to me why did all the protests and chanting that ‘Macedonia is Greek’ only begin in 1987? Why didn’t Greece ever protest or complain (in any form) to the UN or it’s allies after 1946 when the ‘Socialist Republic of Macedonia’ was established within the ‘Federal Socialist Republic of Yugoslavia’?

Greece had 40 years between 1946 to 1987 to raise there concerns and view that ‘Macedonia was Greek’, but instead decided to name the area around Greek controlled part of Macedonia as ‘Northern Greece’ and NOT ‘Macedonia’ between 1912 to 1987? While the ‘Socialist Republic of Macedonia’ existed since 1946 just over the border in Yugoslavia without as much as a peep from Greece, why was that?

The reason is simple, Greece artificially manufactured the ‘so called’ name dispute in 1987 to frustrate the possibility of succession of the ‘Republic of Macedonia’ from Yugoslavia and with the hope that it would result in Macedonia staying within a possible ‘New Yugoslavia’ after Slovenia and Croatia succeeded from the Federation, but once Greece realised in 1995, that Bosnia would remain independent and not be dissolved and reunited with rump Yugoslavia or partitioned between Croatia and Serbia, that there was no chance that Macedonia would join any new union with rump Yugoslavia (Serbia & Montenegro), So in late 1995 Greece reluctantly recognised Macedonia under the temporary name of ‘the former Yugoslav Republic of Macedonia’ with the ongoing hope that maybe if they Veto Macedonia’s entry into EU and NATO long enough that there is still a chance that the ‘Republic of Macedonia’ might self-implod through internal ethnic tensions with minority groups. But I think most Greeks now realises that after 25 years of independence the country isn’t going away any time soon.

PS: just a passing thought, I genuinely think (following the Greek and Egyptian official naming convention i.e. ‘Hellenic Republic of Greece’ and ‘Arab Republic of Egypt’) that the Macedonian government and people might have accepted maybe ‘Slav Republic of Macedonia?’ back in 1995, but the ongoing reference and use by Greeks of ‘FYROM’ in stead of ‘the former Yugoslav Republic of Macedonia’, destroyed any chance of a compromise to the ‘so called’ name dispute. Now every time a new compromised name is floated Macedonian’s do the ‘what will the acronym be…test’ e.g. ‘Northern Republic of Macedonia’ or ‘New Republic of Macedonia’ (NROM?) while the irony is that no-one ever refers to the Hellenic Republic of Greece as (HROG).

Posted on 1/31/16 | 12:05 PM CET

Nick the Greek

Names, whether they be (i) people-names, or (ii) place-names, express identity…Macedonians from Macedonia, for example. Spartans from Sparta, for another example. Athenians from Athens, final example. All of them Greek names created by Greeks, for Greek use.

Regarding ownership of people-names and place-names – When the Byzantine Greeks named a military district to ‘Theme-Macedonia,’ and placed it in Thrace, they were making a political statement light years ahead of their time. Changing location took nothing away from Macedon, what it demonstrated though, was ownership, legacy-jurisdiction over that name.

You know when a name is yours, when you take it with you, wherever you go. Naming expresses ownership, because it implies (i) comprehension, and (ii) legitimacy of the namer’s ethnogenic background and cultural-historical legacy. Hence, settlers colonizers and claimants to territory change toponyms to fit their nomenclature conventions, whilst the original owners change them back again, to original name(s) of the creators.

Macedon is Greek Kingdom. Greeks have lived there continuously for >3 Millenniums…from since the days of King Karanus 808-778 BC. Macedonians are Hellenic on this basis. Those who indulge FYRoM, calling the place Macedonia, calling the South-Slavs there Macedonians, just prolong the longevity of the name dispute between FYRoM and Greece.

The name dispute ends when FYRoM concedes the Macedonian name to the Hellenes – the original creators of the name in the first place. You know when a name is yours, when you take it with you, wherever you go. Theme-Macedonia is the best demonstration of ownership over a name – Byzantine Style!

Posted on 1/31/16 | 2:58 PM CET

Nick the Greek

Rewriting the Western-worlds cultural-historical narrative is futile, on this basis FYRoM should stop utilizing the apparatus os state to teach fabricated history to children, pupils and students there.

It has to be noted that Greeks staunchly defend and protect the Hellenic Republic’s National history and cultural-heritage…and they should be commended for doing so. Protecting the western worlds cultural-historical narrative should be priority now western civilization is under threat.

Nobody of worth in the West, from politics, diplomacy, or academia, sees FYRoM like ‘Macedon’ or ex-Yugoslavians like Macedonians. They see FYRoM for what it really is…a newly established Balkan statelet with all the familiar severance(s), political and historical intrigue(s) associated with a volatile unstable region.

FYRoM’s attempts at Nation building…bringing together a (mosaic) population-dynamic comprising several ethnic-groupings divided by (i) ethnicity, (ii) language, (iii) religion, (iv) histories, (v) heritages, and (vi) loyalties, cannot succeed easily when nothing ‘common’ exists between them. Pseudo-historical intimidation cannot be the basis on which to build the foundations of state.

So, ‘Macedonia’ cannot be the name on which Slavs, Albanians, Vlachs, Turks, Roma etc, stake their primordial historical ethno-generic origin(s) because nothing common exists between these disparate people-groups.

The ‘Central Balkan Republic’ might be a suitable name on which to build a Nation comprising the above mosaic. Bringing back, resurrecting the latin-Roman name, ‘Macedonia-Secunda’ might also do the job.

Seriously though, the first building-block in Nation-building is commonality. The search for commonalities can be found during the Ottoman era, or further back still, to Imperial Byzantium, when FYRoM was at the frontier(s) of the Greek-speaking world, the Eastern-Roman Empire. Common themes and synergies can be found to bound the peoples of FYRoM to one common history, and to one common heritage. Failing that…the West gave FYRoM ample opportunity to integrate, to enter the Western-worlds most prestigious economic and security structures of the EU, and NATO. The name issue is holding FYRoM back from fulfilling stated ambition(s) and aspiration(s) to join the Euro-Atlantic economic and security area.

Western civilization is worth defending, worth protecting. So it is futile for FYRoM to want to rewrite the western-worlds cultural-historical narrative and have expectations that the west will one day invite it into the fold.

Posted on 1/31/16 | 3:27 PM CET

Tom

Since Greece is unwilling to defend its borders, Greece must be thrown out of the Schengen zone (though that doesn’t mean much these days).
Then the Greek-Macedonian border must be fortified with razor wire fences and by border police. The V4 countries will help Macedonia. Hungary has already sent them building material.

Posted on 2/1/16 | 1:12 AM CET

Voden

Nick the HROGian, why do you keep referring to the East-Roman Empire as Byzatine Greece? You do realise there is no such thing as Byzantium Empire, its a word invented by a German historian called ‘Hieronymus Wolf’ in the year 1555, that’s over a century after the East-Roman Empire had ceased to exist (1453). Even the Ottomans refereed to the lands west of Istanbul ‘Constantinople’ as Rumelia (i.e. Roman Lands) up to 1912.

So what’s with all this modern Greek historical revisionism? Are modern Greeks now claiming the East-Roman Empire was actually a ‘Greek Empire’? Why? Because in the year 610AD the East-Roman empire adopted Greek as an official language for administration (much like how currently English is use as an official language of administration in Singapore, Zimbabwe, Ireland (both Northern & the Republic) and Tonga just to name a few) So are all Singaporeans and Irishmen actually ethnic English because they can speak English? The Roman Empire also adopted Christianity (a religion from Judea) in the year 380AD, so does that make the Roman Empire a ‘Judaic Empire’ and not Roman from 380AD onwards?

Also I had a good laugh when I saw your comment regarding the Theme-Macedonia.. you do realise that the ‘Macedonian-dynasty’ within the East-Roman Empire was founded by Basil I who was an Armenian but is often call ‘Basil I the Macedonian’.

Posted on 2/1/16 | 12:49 PM CET

Peter D

I would commend Warren Treadgold’s (Treadgold is Professor of Byzantine Studies at St Louis University and has published numerous works on Byzantium) magisterial “A History of the Byzantine State and Society” to you. This is considered by many scholarly types to be one of the best scholarly works of more recent times on Byzantium. As Treadgold makes clear it was the Greeks who fashioned themselves as ‘Romioi’ or Romans. The Byzantine Greeks or Romioi though were always conscious of their Greek identity and heritage. You should check your own Bulgarian sources in this regard too. There is no shortage of Bulgarian references to the Byzantine’s Greekness.

Consider these extracts from Treadgold in this regard –

“Such were the parts of the Byzantine world that remained under Greek rule, or returned to it.”

“The Greeks, who still called themselves Romans, had become merely an ethnic group with a glorious past, …..”

Further, your man Risto Stefov extensively cites and quotes John Julius Norwich in his work. Norwich is the author of an equally magisterial trilogy of works on Byzantium. He has also published a single volume “short” version of these. There is no shortage of references in these to the Byzantines as Greeks, to Greeks/Byzantines interchangeably. I also commend these to you.

Yet another work cited and quoted by Stefov is H G Wells’ “The Outline of History”. Consider this extract from Wells in this regard –

“The Byzantine Empire was no genuine continuation of it; it was a resumption of the Hellenic empire of Alexander;”

Kaplan too makes the same point, consider –

“For what admirers of ancient Greece consider the Dark Ages was, in truth, the beginning of another period of Greek grandeur, that of Byzantium.” (Kaplan, R D, Balkan Ghosts et al)

Kaplan, of course, is another source cited and quoted by Skopian propagandists, lol.

The Arabs too understood and understand Byzantium to have been Greek. Consider this extract from Maalouf –

“Alexius was in fact the emperor of the Greeks, who proclaimed themselves the inheritors of the Roman empire. The Arabs, indeed, recognised them as such, for in the eleventh century – as in the twentieth – they designated the Greeks by the term Rum, or ‘Romans’.” (Source: Maalouf, A, The Crusades Through Arab Eyes et al)

I could go on and on and on.

You see, numerous quality works and/or works cited and quoted by Skopian propagandists, in actuality, on closer inspection/consideration, overwhelmingly support the Greek perspective on this matter (and also many other matters).

Posted on 2/1/16 | 10:27 PM CET

Peter D

Actually, to its contemporaries, in the West, to the Bulgarians, to the Persians (also a major empire during much of the Byzantine period), to the Arabs, and others, the so-called Byzantine empire was generally known as Empire of the Greeks or Greek empire and its emperor was called Greek emperor. Indeed, both historical and contemporary sources of the abovementioned origins attest to that truth.

Posted on 2/1/16 | 10:38 PM CET

Voden

Peter D, you seem to have missed the point I was making, there is no such thing as ‘Byzantine Empire’ its a made-up word to describe the East-Roman Empire so STOP using it. During the period the East-Roman empire existed (between 330AD to 1453AD) no one called it Byzantium or ‘Empire of the Greeks’ as you claim. The East-Roman Empire was a continuation of the Roman Empire and the citizens still considered themselves Romans ‘Romaioi’ and not Greek as you claim.

In 610 the ruling elite within the East Roman Empire adopted a more modern version of ancient Greek as the official language (for a number of reasons which I wont get into here) for both civic and military administration even though only a third of the population actually speak Greek natively within the empire at the time, with the remaining two thirds still speaking Latin and to a lesser extent Armenian and other smaller regional languages now long extinct. A similar example of were one language was used for administration and another used by the general population existed in England between 10th to 14th century were the aristocracy, royal court and clergy officially used the French language while the peasantry still spoke English, but no one refers to that period of English history as French history even though the upper-class spoke French.

The true decadence of the East-Roman empire are ALL the Latin speaking orthodox Romanians/Vlachs, Georgians, Greeks and to a lesser extent Armenian’s (Basil I). So please stop trying to usurp East Roman history as Greek. But as I have learned here from Peter D and Nick the HROGian is that Greece act like a virus, once a more powerful empire invades Greece, the invaders get infected with ‘Greekness’ and become Greek themselves, apparently that’s what happened when Ancient Macedonia invaded Greece and again when the Romans invaded Greece, they all become Greek. So maybe in a thousand years time historians will say that the EU was actually the ‘Ellas Union’ (Greek Union) and all the citizens within the EU were all actually Greek and the proof being that the Euro currently has Greek writing on it in the bottom left corner so it must be greek 🙂 just playing with you guys, hope you have a great day Peter and Nick… All the Best guys.

Peter D

My dear Mr Voden, it occurs to me that every one of your postings is more political than intellectual. Twisting a bit here. Omitting a bit there. Including a bit elsewhere. All of which is pure Skopian propaganda. However, I would like to address myself further to a couple of points that you make.

Firstly, as to the Greekness of ancient Macedonia and the Macedonians. You will no doubt be familiar with Herodotus and his writings. Herodotus makes absolutely clear the Greekness of ancient Macedonia and the Macedonians. I refer to Herodotus here because he wrote before Alexander III, indeed, before Philip II. He wrote before ancient Macedonia became the pre-eminent Greek power, which relates to one of the points you make.

Regarding Herodotus and his writings though, I note that I have recently come across an electronic version of a book titled ‘Macedonia in Ancient Times’. This book is attributed to Antonije Skokljev-Donco, Slave Nikolovski-Katin and the world famous Risto Stefov. Skopian propagandists all. The book cites, quotes and mentions Herodotus (or purports to) more that SEVENTY times. I repeat, more than SEVENTY times. Dozens of times more than say Arrian, Plutarch or Diodorus. It must be considered then that Herodotus is a seriously significant source on ancient Macedonia and the Macedonians, including to yourselves. Thus my reference to Herodotus.

Secondly, as to the question of empires and their nature. All empires are multi-cultural/ethnic BUT ….. Let’s consider the BUT here by considering same in relation to the Ottoman empire. BUT further in you line of thought, was the Ottoman empire then not a Turkish empire? It was certainly multi-cultural/ethnic (multi-cultural/ethnic though in the terms of empire, like the Byzantine empire, consisting generally of the DOMINANT and the DOMINATED groups and not in the terms of today’s multi-cultural immigrant states like Canada, Australia and the United States). Many of its Sultans were not exactly purely Turkish. Many, if not most, of its grand viziers (prime/chief ministers) and many of its other high officials were not at all Turkish. The Turks themselves, along with you Bulgarians, the other Slavs, the Romanians, the Albanians, remained throughout the ‘lower’ elements of the Ottoman empire. The Greeks and the Armenians remained throughout the most sophisticated, cultured and wealthiest elements of the Ottoman empire. Given all this, is it reasonable then to characterise the Ottoman empire as a Turkish empire? Of course it is, as that is what it was.

All empires can be similarly so characterised. That is the nature of the beast. The Byzantine empire was as Greek as the Ottoman empire was Turkish. The Byzantine empire was as Greek as the Persian empire was Persian. The Byzantine empire was as Greek as the Roman empire was Roman. Etc. Etc. Etc.

It may interest you to learn that as recently as 1900 the majority (56%) of the population of Constantinople were Christians (1), Greeks and Armenians (in that order) in the main, lol.

(1) Finkel, C, Osman’s Dream: The History of the Ottoman Empire et al

Thirdly, and as I have touched upon, it was the Greeks who ‘fashioned’ themselves as Romans, Romaioi and then later Romioi, and it was the Greeks who asserted that they represented the continuation of Rome. The rest of the world was then and is now unconvinced that they were anything other than Greek.