After my unfortunate mistake (which I'm still pissed at myself for), Sapph and I have come to a conclusion. Due to how the game was going, and the likely hood of mafia winning, we have decided that Mafia will win this game.

Mafia wins!

This game used row A of the Matrix 6 setup, so the full setup was 5 Vanillas, 1 one-shot Bulletproof, 1 Jailkeeper, 1 Roleblocker, and 1 Goon.

Mafia

Opsi - You are a Goon. You have no special abilities. You win with the Mafia.

Kescarte - You are a Roleblocker. Each night you may select a player. This player will be prevented from using their own action, if any, during that night. You may perform the kill and roleblock a player in the same night. You win with the Mafia.

Town

Dragon - You are a Vanilla. You have no special abilities. You win with the Town.

Fire - You are a Vanilla. You have no special abilities. You win with the Town.

Famous - You are a Vanilla. You have no special abilities. You win with the Town.

Val - You are a Vanilla. You have no special abilities. You win with the Town.

Matt - You are a Vanilla. You have no special abilities. You win with the Town.

Mb8 - You are a Jailkeeper. Each night you may select a player. This player will be protected from lethal actions but will also be prevented from using their own action, if any, during that night. This includes the mafia's night kill. You may not self-target. You win with the Town.

Rouke - You are a 1x Bulletproof. You will survive one lethal action during the game. You win with the Town.

Night Actions

NP1Mb8 - Jailkeep DragonKescarte - RB ValKescarte - NK Famous

NP2Kescarte - NK ValKescarte - RB Matt

Again, I'm really sorry for my miscount, as town still had a chance to win at that point in time (though it was unlikely). However, town still has a lot to learn from this game, which I hope to go over more in this endgame.

If you believe I have mis-endgame'd, let me know and I will re-c/p.

You're probably thinking right now "haha I'm a genius". Well you're not -Valkrin

Town most likely would have lost the game. Mainly, due to my incompetence and stupidity. I take most of the blame as a lousy ringer. The plan was to lynch Kescartes(who is Mafia) and then Dragon(who is not). But it was an enjoyable game. I thank everyone who played.

My mistakes were:

1- I should have stuck with my vibe on Fire_Wings and not succumbed to the bandwagon. I feel like a total idiot on that.

2- I should have read the Matrix 6 and not based off my decision-making on memory. I apologize to Mb8. If we didn't lynch her, but lynched Kescartes, we could have had better chances of winning.

Some remarks:

1- Dragon played terribly. He trolled, claimed Mafia twice and then suspected me and me only no matter what happened.

2- Ops was relatively good at playing scum. We didn't pressure him enough and he got away due to inactivity. Although the decision to NK Famous was probably their worst decision as Mafia.

3- Kescartes shouldn't have lied early on. That was a big mistake. If I took my time to read the Matrix, I would have easily caught him. And if the voting-count error didn't happen(more about that in a moment), he would have been rightfully lynched, giving us a better chance as Town to victory.

4- Matt played well. His only mistake was that he didn't unvote on Fire_Wings.

5- Mb8 played well. She--did--read the Matrix, but was inactive to defend herself. It's my fault that she got lynched and so I apologize. She didn't unvote on Fire_Wings, which made me suspect her but that was her only mistake.

6- Famous was mostly inactive and didn't provide any reads, when he could have helped a lot.

7- Valkrin played well. He did unvote on Fire_Wings when I convinced him and didn't do any big f*ck-ups like I did. But was relatively inactive. I also owe him 30 CAD but he doesn't have paypal.

8- Fire_Wings didn't defend himself well enough. But he played relatively well and didn't do any big mistakes other than suspecting in Dragon, who was vanilla town.

That being said, I'm not mad at Vaalkra for the f*ck-up, but generally I never witnessed so much voting errors with other vote-counters. On a lynch especially, the vote-counter needs to be careful not to make any mistakes. But it's all good. This odd turn-out made the game even more unpredictable.

I thank Vallkra and Saph for their efforts and apologize again for my incompetence.

At 5/19/2016 2:53:31 PM, Roukezian wrote:Town most likely would have lost the game. Mainly, due to my incompetence and stupidity. I take most of the blame as a lousy ringer. The plan was to lynch Kescartes(who is Mafia) and then Dragon(who is not). But it was an enjoyable game. I thank everyone who played.

My mistakes were:

1- I should have stuck with my vibe on Fire_Wings and not succumbed to the bandwagon. I feel like a total idiot on that.

2- I should have read the Matrix 6 and not based off my decision-making on memory. I apologize to Mb8. If we didn't lynch her, but lynched Kescartes, we could have had better chances of winning.

Some remarks:

1- Dragon played terribly. He trolled, claimed Mafia twice and then suspected me and me only no matter what happened.

2- Ops was relatively good at playing scum. We didn't pressure him enough and he got away due to inactivity. Although the decision to NK Famous was probably their worst decision as Mafia.

3- Kescartes shouldn't have lied early on. That was a big mistake. If I took my time to read the Matrix, I would have easily caught him. And if the voting-count error didn't happen(more about that in a moment), he would have been rightfully lynched, giving us a better chance as Town to victory.

4- Matt played well. His only mistake was that he didn't unvote on Fire_Wings.

5- Mb8 played well. She--did--read the Matrix, but was inactive to defend herself. It's my fault that she got lynched and so I apologize. She didn't unvote on Fire_Wings, which made me suspect her but that was her only mistake.

6- Famous was mostly inactive and didn't provide any reads, when he could have helped a lot.

7- Valkrin played well. He did unvote on Fire_Wings when I convinced him and didn't do any big f*ck-ups like I did. But was relatively inactive. I also owe him 30 CAD but he doesn't have paypal.

8- Fire_Wings didn't defend himself well enough. But he played relatively well and didn't do any big mistakes other than suspecting in Dragon, who was vanilla town.

That being said, I'm not mad at Vaalkra for the f*ck-up, but generally I never witnessed so much voting errors with other vote-counters. On a lynch especially, the vote-counter needs to be careful not to make any mistakes. But it's all good. This odd turn-out made the game even more unpredictable.

I thank Vallkra and Saph for their efforts and apologize again for my incompetence.

Vaalkra and Vallkra? XDI think you're trying to combine Valkrin and I as one person XPBut thanks for not being mad, and I again apologize for my miscount. I was trying to get the vote count out quickly, as I got a message that made me think "the game ended" with little to no context. I quickly saw the VTL, and without really paying attention, assumed it was on you. So I apologize again for that.

You're probably thinking right now "haha I'm a genius". Well you're not -Valkrin

I'd have to say a majority of the down sides of town's play this game happened during DP1 and some of DP2, and when I have to time I will try and go through to show some posts as examples, and (hopefully) how to improve on that.

You're probably thinking right now "haha I'm a genius". Well you're not -Valkrin

At 5/19/2016 2:53:31 PM, Roukezian wrote:Town most likely would have lost the game. Mainly, due to my incompetence and stupidity. I take most of the blame as a lousy ringer. The plan was to lynch Kescartes(who is Mafia) and then Dragon(who is not). But it was an enjoyable game. I thank everyone who played.

My mistakes were:

1- I should have stuck with my vibe on Fire_Wings and not succumbed to the bandwagon. I feel like a total idiot on that.

2- I should have read the Matrix 6 and not based off my decision-making on memory. I apologize to Mb8. If we didn't lynch her, but lynched Kescartes, we could have had better chances of winning.

Some remarks:

1- Dragon played terribly. He trolled, claimed Mafia twice and then suspected me and me only no matter what happened.

2- Ops was relatively good at playing scum. We didn't pressure him enough and he got away due to inactivity. Although the decision to NK Famous was probably their worst decision as Mafia.

3- Kescartes shouldn't have lied early on. That was a big mistake. If I took my time to read the Matrix, I would have easily caught him. And if the voting-count error didn't happen(more about that in a moment), he would have been rightfully lynched, giving us a better chance as Town to victory.

4- Matt played well. His only mistake was that he didn't unvote on Fire_Wings.

5- Mb8 played well. She--did--read the Matrix, but was inactive to defend herself. It's my fault that she got lynched and so I apologize. She didn't unvote on Fire_Wings, which made me suspect her but that was her only mistake.

6- Famous was mostly inactive and didn't provide any reads, when he could have helped a lot.

7- Valkrin played well. He did unvote on Fire_Wings when I convinced him and didn't do any big f*ck-ups like I did. But was relatively inactive. I also owe him 30 CAD but he doesn't have paypal.

8- Fire_Wings didn't defend himself well enough. But he played relatively well and didn't do any big mistakes other than suspecting in Dragon, who was vanilla town.

That being said, I'm not mad at Vaalkra for the f*ck-up, but generally I never witnessed so much voting errors with other vote-counters. On a lynch especially, the vote-counter needs to be careful not to make any mistakes. But it's all good. This odd turn-out made the game even more unpredictable.

I thank Vallkra and Saph for their efforts and apologize again for my incompetence.

I wouldn't have been rightfully lynched. There were two votes on me and two on you. And Opsianos was about to throw the last vote. You would have been lynched.

"Never thought I'd be sitting up at 9:20 at night discussing with a random stranger how to best acquire a goat carcass." ~Tree of Death

Same. I was talking the entire game with Flex and well, we cringed at some points.

It's typical of those outside a decision-making framework to be be easily convinced that they could have made better decisions (outsiders' egocentric bias), but the situation is different when you're part of the decision-making and held accountable for any screw-ups.

I'm personally not satisfied with my overall performance, I even consider it one of the worst games I've ever played, and that I'm held accountable for most of Town's incompetence, but then I cannot ascertain that the Town team would have done any better with you or Flex on.

Same. I was talking the entire game with Flex and well, we cringed at some points.

It's typical of those outside a decision-making framework to be be easily convinced that they could have made better decisions (outsiders' egocentric bias), but the situation is different when you're part of the decision-making and held accountable for any screw-ups.

I'm personally not satisfied with my overall performance, I even consider it one of the worst games I've ever played, and that I'm held accountable for most of Town's incompetence, but then I cannot ascertain that the Town team would have done any better with you or Flex on.

Me? Oh no. Flex? Yes. I'm pretty sure he called it during DP1 and kept it that way. Flex is really good at convincing people and also lying. I would have him replace Dragon or some inactive player first.

Same. I was talking the entire game with Flex and well, we cringed at some points.

This is an understatement. I wanted to pull my hair out by the second page. Some playstyle related things in particular were terrible.

DDO Beginners' Mafia Moderator -- PM me if you'd like to learn how to play mafia!

"We wondered what happiness would look like if we could give it a physical form...the shape of happiness might resemble glass...even though you don't usually notice it, it's still definitely there. You merely have to change your point of view slightly, and then that glass will sparkle when it reflects the light. I doubt that anything else could argue its own existence more eloquently." ~Lelouch

Same. I was talking the entire game with Flex and well, we cringed at some points.

It's typical of those outside a decision-making framework to be be easily convinced that they could have made better decisions (outsiders' egocentric bias), but the situation is different when you're part of the decision-making and held accountable for any screw-ups.

I'm personally not satisfied with my overall performance, I even consider it one of the worst games I've ever played, and that I'm held accountable for most of Town's incompetence, but then I cannot ascertain that the Town team would have done any better with you or Flex on.

At 5/19/2016 7:03:01 PM, MattTheDreamer wrote:Damn, I wish it would've turned out otherwise, but good job to the Maf.

I'd like feedback on my play. Anything I need to improve on?

Yeah, I got one. Try and be a bit more active. Your lack of activity, and the excuse of schoolwork, while completely legitimate, sounded fake. If I had been town, I probably would have been suspicious of you just for that.

"Never thought I'd be sitting up at 9:20 at night discussing with a random stranger how to best acquire a goat carcass." ~Tree of Death

http://www.debate.org...Everyone knows who the ringers are right from the signup list. And if by "identify" you mean "determine the alignment of," then it shouldn't matter because it is the responsibility of ringers to help new players regardless of whether they're town or scum.

http://www.debate.org...That was a useless claim. That aside, it's generally not a good idea to claim early in the game (unless you're gambiting, which I don't recommend at this stage). If you're VT, you're helping scum narrow down the pool of players who could be PRs. If you are a PR, you're basically painting a target on your back for scum.

http://www.debate.org...A few, maybe, but DP1 is certainly not one of them. Also, even though the point of RVS isn't to lynch right off the bat, it *is* meant to generate behaviors, and everyone too fearful of voting is going to prevent that from happening.

http://www.debate.org...Townies' most powerful tools are their voice and their vote. Don't have the mentality that just because you're a VT, you can't contribute meaningfully to the town. By neglecting to use your vote, you're ignoring half the tools available to you.

http://www.debate.org...If this is how you get reads, I'm curious as to what reads you actually got from it. As a reaction test that one is not very effective--mafia already know who they are because they have a PM together, and claiming you're mafia isn't doing yourself any favors.

http://www.debate.org...I can sympathize with the feeling that you don't really have reads or know how to properly go about getting them--this will come with experience. But that doesn't mean you can't help town. Talk to people, ask questions, try to look at how or why someone is acting the way they are.

http://www.debate.org...No it's not. Roles and alignments are randomized. Again, read the document (goes for you too, Opsi--who gets VT has nothing to do with who's a newbie).

http://www.debate.org...Once again, roles and alignments are randomized. Scum could be 2 noobs, 2 ringers, or 1 of each.

http://www.debate.org...It defeats the purpose of "pressure" if you outright label it as such and say that you don't want to lynch him.

http://www.debate.org...Going after inactives so early is also a bad idea. If they're inactive, will voting them suddenly make them become active? This also makes a good place for scum to hide, allowing them to escape doing any fake analysis under the pretense of pressuring inactives. Even if you do get an inactive lynch, what then? They haven't talked, so you have no behavior to analyze based on their flip. Not a good use of a lynch. (If it's later on in the game though, and someone's still inactive, that's a good time to start looking into that.)

http://www.debate.org...Again, role fishing is anti-town. In most circumstances, don't do it unless someone's at L-1; then they should claim.

http://www.debate.org...This is known as a policy lynch. Opinions are divided on this, but I really don't think policy lynches are a good idea, especially in newbie games. Lynching someone because they're "useless" isn't going to help them become better, and can embitter them and turn them away from playing mafia in the future. Instead, try to show them how they can improve--chances are, they just don't know how to play well because they're new, and that's perfectly normal.

http://www.debate.org...This type of mindsest ("it's just how I play") can be anti-town, giving scum a cover for scummy behavior under the same pretense of it just being playstyle. As you play more, it should become easier to form reads without relying on wifom-esque reaction tests.

http://www.debate.org...Don't do that either. I know you're discouraged and angry that people are all voting you, but they're not doing that without reason. Regardless, self-voting as town is nearly always anti-town.

If I sound harsh in this, I apologize. I was a little exasperated by what I was seeing.

DDO Beginners' Mafia Moderator -- PM me if you'd like to learn how to play mafia!

"We wondered what happiness would look like if we could give it a physical form...the shape of happiness might resemble glass...even though you don't usually notice it, it's still definitely there. You merely have to change your point of view slightly, and then that glass will sparkle when it reflects the light. I doubt that anything else could argue its own existence more eloquently." ~Lelouch

Also, if it's LyLo, don't vote immediately. LyLo stands for "lynch or lose," which means there is only one more town than scum alive, and thus town *must* lynch scum that DP or else they will lose. The danger here is that, with a single vote on town, mafia can jump in and quickhammer, winning the game. Which is what would have happened on the last DP if Vaar hadn't miscounted--Opsi would have hammered Rouke.

DDO Beginners' Mafia Moderator -- PM me if you'd like to learn how to play mafia!

"We wondered what happiness would look like if we could give it a physical form...the shape of happiness might resemble glass...even though you don't usually notice it, it's still definitely there. You merely have to change your point of view slightly, and then that glass will sparkle when it reflects the light. I doubt that anything else could argue its own existence more eloquently." ~Lelouch

2- I should have read the Matrix 6 and not based off my decision-making on memory. I apologize to Mb8. If we didn't lynch her, but lynched Kescartes, we could have had better chances of winning.

You're apology is accepted. I won't have a grudge over a game of mafia. I had a feeling people would suspect me anyway because of the role blocker and jail keeper being A row.

5- Mb8 played well. She--did--read the Matrix, but was inactive to defend herself. It's my fault that she got lynched and so I apologize. She didn't unvote on Fire_Wings, which made me suspect her but that was her only mistake.

I was at school when the lynch against me was made, so unfortunately, I was unable to respond to the allegations against me. I'm genuinely surprised that the lynch went so quickly though.

~missbailey8~

Skep: Bailey, you have sardonic written all over your face.
Annie: She has gorgeous written all over her face!

"No one hates missbailey8 - she doesn't have enough of a persona to be hated." - Airmax1227

http://www.debate.org...A few, maybe, but DP1 is certainly not one of them. Also, even though the point of RVS isn't to lynch right off the bat, it *is* meant to generate behaviors, and everyone too fearful of voting is going to prevent that from happening.

Admittedly in the context of the situation I was wrong, but I was speaking in a more general sense here.

Any other criticisms that I could be given (especially during DP1? After reading back it almost seemed like stupid reasons for me to be voting Fire in the first place.

http://www.debate.org...That was a useless claim. That aside, it's generally not a good idea to claim early in the game (unless you're gambiting, which I don't recommend at this stage). If you're VT, you're helping scum narrow down the pool of players who could be PRs. If you are a PR, you're basically painting a target on your back for scum.

It may seem useless, but its a town tell from DoC. Pus his follow up post gave more town vibes.

http://www.debate.org...If this is how you get reads, I'm curious as to what reads you actually got from it. As a reaction test that one is not very effective--mafia already know who they are because they have a PM together, and claiming you're mafia isn't doing yourself any favors.

That is probably the most retarded reaction test, if it even is one, I've ever read, but it's also another huge town tell form DoC. No scum, noob or even experience, would say that.

http://www.debate.org...This is known as a policy lynch. Opinions are divided on this, but I really don't think policy lynches are a good idea, especially in newbie games. Lynching someone because they're "useless" isn't going to help them become better, and can embitter them and turn them away from playing mafia in the future. Instead, try to show them how they can improve--chances are, they just don't know how to play well because they're new, and that's perfectly normal.

If they are like Preston who's is going to be detrimental to town's wincon like by lynching the most obvious townie, then go for the policy lynch. If its a troll, then first request the mod to replace the troll. If the mod won't replace him/her, then you have no other choice, but lynch him. But you have to be careful on who you consider a troll. A troll for me is someone who is purposely going against their own wincon.

Though I agree with Saph to not do this in newbie games since the newbie games are a learning environment.

At 5/20/2016 12:50:32 PM, Vaarka wrote:I wrote Bsh1 an apology PM regarding the pain he must've gone through modding so many beginner games.

Lol, true.

DDO Beginners' Mafia Moderator -- PM me if you'd like to learn how to play mafia!

"We wondered what happiness would look like if we could give it a physical form...the shape of happiness might resemble glass...even though you don't usually notice it, it's still definitely there. You merely have to change your point of view slightly, and then that glass will sparkle when it reflects the light. I doubt that anything else could argue its own existence more eloquently." ~Lelouch