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Some quick odd thoughts about beating Detroit....

First let me say that I always love when Detroit comes to town because they always bring in their fans with them. In the past many have been just down right vile, but some of them have been cool.

Last night was no exception. I get to the game (late of course, d@mn you Walsh & the 7 p.m. starts) & when I sit down I see directly behind me a good old fashioned Chauncey Billups Jersey.

No big deal, I was going to leave him alone & I hoped he would do the same for me.

But noooooooooo. As I sit there a voice from on high (Roaming Gnome) yells down to me that I don't have to worry about getting Iverson because & I quote "they don't want any of our trash". I reply that I am still worried but I felt better with his comforting words.

I turn around & sit down when said Detroit fans says to me, "so you don't want Iverson".

I then replied with a long eloquent speech about how team game vs. individual game did not appeal to me & although I thought he had talent it just wasn't what I preferred. We then both agreed that World B. Free was a great player as well.

Ok, at least that's what I wish I would have done.

No, my real reply to him was "hell No"!!

He then went on to state that he thought J.O. & A.I. would be a great combo & before I could even answer Diamond Dave jumps in as though he were rushing up Mt. Suribachi to plant the flag & proceeds to list off every player that couldn't co-exist.

They guy then says "true enough".

Had he ended it there I would have been fine but no, he had to throw this in.

"You know Larry Bird tried to get Iverson before, right"? To which I replied "I knew Larry has stated that he was a fan but I didn't think he ever made any real overtures".

He then says "yes back when he was the coach he tried to get Iverson here & in fact had a trade done but the G.M. of the team Nixed the idea".

Of course I didn't try to explain that being the coach gave Bird no authority to make any trades or anything because this guy was on a roll.

So I say "I wonder who they were going to trade him for"?

"The deal was for Reggie Miller" to which I choked on my Diet Pepsi.

I couldn't even reply before this gem came out of his mouth.

"When they nixed the deal Larry Bird walked".

I didn't have the heart to break it to him about what really happened so I just changed the subject to how the pistons were doing.

He was all happy in the first half. Kept saying it was a good game. But by the middle of the third he had become very quiet, then by the middle of the fourth he got kind of happy again only to be quashed by the Pacers run at the end.

He didn't even stay to say goodbye.

Ok, now to the game.

Second best game I've seen this season & probably the best game I've seen really this season because it was vs. a good team. I liked the N.Y. game as well but they aren't the Pistons.

Rick Carlisle was great during this game. For once in his career he resisted the temptation to play down to a small lineup & in fact at times put a huge lineup on the floor.

At one time we had Saras, Williams, Granger, Baston, & O'Neal on the floor. That is freakin huge.

I have no idea though why Skip chose to go small in the 4th when J.O. began to terroize the Pistons in the paint. They only had Rasheed on him & he was out of it for most of the night.

Side note, it's always fun to watch Sheed & Violet Palmer in the same building. I keep wondering when he is going to swing at her. I have no sympathy for Wallace but d@mn she is a horrid ref.

I digress.

Back to Rick. I loved the offensive game set last night. This is what we were getting the first 8 games of the season & then down at the end we changed up & went low post. We had low post early in the game as well, but it was way more mixed in than it has been in some recent games.

I love this offense because everybody gets a chance to score & I think it is always more dangerous when a team can have several players in double figures.

So while there were several heros amongst the players let's not forget Rick on this game.

The Players.

Let's start with O'Neal.

He just flat out ruled the 4th quarter. Even though he had a massive stat line I want to pay him a bigger compliment. To me, he got his offense in the flow of the game. We did not force it into the post most of the night & when we went to that option at the end we had already given them several other types of offense so they had to be prepared for it as well.

It was proper to give J.O. the rock at the end & he more than earned the right to get those shots with his play.

When he plays like this & as a team everybody gets theirs it can be fun for everyone. This is why I was so dissapointed by the post game meeting after game 8.

This J.O. will get as much, if not more, points & boards by working in this offense than he would by us just making sure he gets his touches down low.

But hey, let's not turn this into that kind of debate again.

Let's all just sing the praises of J.O. for this game & say that he played on an MVP level in the 4th quarter.

Jacksons defense of Hamilton should not be disounted at all. He kept Rip out of it for most of the game & he made him work for most of his shots.

Also & this may not mean much to people but I think it's important. When our bench fought off a run by Detroit in the 3rd quarter the first person off of the bench & meeting the guys at almost the half court line was Jackson. He even beat Armstrong out there.

He genuinely looked happy & was very very very supportive.

Also, Mr. Cool, Jamaal Tinsley for some reason decided to be a rah-rah guy. He was there to slap hands with almost everyone who played with him on the floor after they hit a shot or made a play. he even once went all the way across the floor to give daps to Saras after a great pass he made to J.O.

Just like that N.Y. game, it seemed to me that everybody was on the same page & everybody was pulling for each other.

I think it is important to let the bench play & let them have some meaningfull min. if for no other reason than to develop team chemistry. I don't think there has to be a bench team & a starter team. I think you can filter in the bench guys & always keep a starter or two out there but I think it is vital to let Baston, Granger, Saras, (hopefully) Williams & Armstrong get some time. I would prefer letting Powell get a few min. here & there as well but I understand keeping the rotation to 10 or 11 men.

You'll notice I left Daniels out of that, well again Quis got a DNP-CD. Could be because they let Williams have a turn at home before he goes back to the I.L. But this isn't the first time Quis got one of these while being healthy. I'm not sure if it's because he doesn't fit into what Rick wants or he may have a discipline problem or what but he is not playing the time that I thought he would.

Danny was also very good last night. He missed a couple of spots vs. Prince but other than that I thought he did very well. I like the fact that he is mixing up his shot selection more & not just becomeing a 3 pt. specialist.

Al played very well & I love the fact that he is very quick with the ball. However Al did not get his first rebound until 18 min. into the game. That is obscene. Love the work on the blocks Al, but grab a d@mn board.

Jeff was ok. Nothing grand but nothing horrid either. Actually that sounds worse than it was. Jeff did a very good job out there but it really wasn't a special game from him, not that it needed to be.

For those that didn't see it Armstrongs shot from beyond the half court line was beautifull. You could tell it was going in when it left his hand just by the arc it took. Didn't count but hey it looked nice.

That contortionist from Romainia was weird. How the hell you can shoot an arrow with your feet from over & behind your head is beyond me.

Ok, for those in attendance. Who was with Walsh all night? Was that David Simon?

I did not see Harrison on the bench, was he there & I just missed him?

Great game by everyone & let's do the same on Friday.

Sorry this is kind of disjointed but I'm short on time. I'll try & add more later.

Basketball isn't played with computers, spreadsheets, and simulations. ChicagoJ 4/21/13

Re: Some quick odd thoughts about beating Detroit....

Also, Mr. Cool, Jamaal Tinsley for some reason decided to be a rah-rah guy. He was there to slap hands with almost everyone who played with him on the floor after they hit a shot or made a play. he even once went all the way across the floor to give daps to Saras after a great pass he made to J.O.

Good post as always Pecky!

I'm thinking Tinsley is well aware of what Pacer forums say about him and he's trying to come around. IF he were like this all the time there would be no way he would even be mentioned in a trade. Well no that's not true, he would be mentioned as a player that's untouchable.

That leads to another thought. For most of the last year both Tins and Jax have been mentioned as players most would like to see traded. However, it's now obvious from their demeanor that Jax and Tins are trying hard to do the right thing. When you remember that they are young men you have to tip your hat to them.

All of which makes sitting in Bird and Walsh's seats a very hard job. What was it Bird said, "One of your players getting in trouble was like having one of your children get in trouble, or words to that effect.

So right now I don't want either traded, even thought I've wanted both traded in the past. If I don't want it, how does Bird feel about it?

Glad it's his job and not mine! However he's always said he'll do a trade if he thinks it will make the Pacers better. That's one reason I'm not worried one way or the other about AI. If we get him, okay! If not, I take it to mean Philly wanted more than we were willing to give up.

All this to say I slept though the game, so I'm glad to hear those descriptions of Jax and Tins conduct. I LIKE players that do that sort of thing!

Re: Some quick odd thoughts about beating Detroit....

Marquis and Harrison as filler in an AI trade where the Pacers are a third
team to help say a team like Minnesota? Is that why they did not play?
Highly unlikely but that could be the Pacers roll in any AI trades

Re: Some quick odd thoughts about beating Detroit....

For sure this year, we need to follow the old coach's maxim - "Don't get too high with the wins and too low with the losses."

Amen! As long as it's not losing to the Knicks or Lakers I can take it.

With them when we lose I throw myself down and pound the floor with my fists and kick it with my feet, all while hollering and screaming at the top of my lungs.
With wins I just run around the house screaming.

With other teams when we lose I frown. When we win against other teams I nod and give a thumbs up.

Re: Some quick odd thoughts about beating Detroit....

Great post, Peck!! The piston fan brings to mind Reggie's very last game against Detroit, in the playoffs, I thought I'd share.

My wife and I sit down lower level, at one end, behind the basket and two women in Piston garb are right next to me. One probably early 20s and the other late 50s, I got the eye roll from the older one. I talked friendly to the younger one during warm ups. I don't care, I'm so excited, I'm not mad at them, I actually give them props for coming into the opposing arena. She was tolerant of my being nice, then the older yells out, without provocation... "My Nephew, Chauncey Billups", my wife and I kinda stop and look at each other. Again she loudly says "My Nephew Chauncey Billups". My wife and I bust out laughing.

It turns out the younger girl was his cousin and yes the older one his Aunt. Throughout the game we hear about 25 times, "My Nephew, Chauncey Billups"... so funny.

Now around our house, he's not Billiups, Chauncy, or even Chauncey Billups, but the full formal address of MY NEPHEW, CHAUNCY BILLUPS.

Re: Some quick odd thoughts about beating Detroit....

Couple of points about JO.

Anyone else notice a trend over the years - JO plays better after a few games off. Please don't infer this as a negative comment - I just think I've noticed a trend.

I can usually tell awith about 90% certainty when JO's post moves will result in two points. Whenever he makes an agressive hard move and frees up some space with his quickness and get up in the air, he will make the shot most of the time. When you tries to power through players - his shot gets blocked as often as it doesn't. When he isn't strong with the ball - he usually misses. Last night he had a couple of excellent moved on Rasheed.

Peck, Flip almost always goes small when it is winning time in the fourth quarter. He moves Sheed to center and puts Prince at power forward. That is his normal lineup in the last 6 minutes of close games.

Billups is a very good defender but for whatever he has a lot of trouble with Tinsley

Re: Some quick odd thoughts about beating Detroit....

Anyone else notice a trend over the years - JO plays better after a few games off. Please don't infer this as a negative comment - I just think I've noticed a trend.

I can usually tell awith about 90% certainty when JO's post moves will result in two points. Whenever he makes an agressive hard move and frees up some space with his quickness and get up in the air, he will make the shot most of the time. When you tries to power through players - his shot gets blocked as often as it doesn't. When he isn't strong with the ball - he usually misses. Last night he had a couple of excellent moved on Rasheed.

Peck, Flip almost always goes small when it is winning time in the fourth quarter. He moves Sheed to center and puts Prince at power forward. That is his normal lineup in the last 6 minutes of close games.

Billups is a very good defender but for whatever he has a lot of trouble with Tinsley

I think with his improved conditioning, JO has been doing better this year with that but I believe you are correct to some extent. I attribute that to him being one of the few players in the NBA that play hard on both sides of the ball and are expected to dominate on both sides as well.

Re: Some quick odd thoughts about beating Detroit....

A nice win and as Peck notes very much a team effort. So I am happy.

At that same time, however, I thought the Pistons were rather listless in this game. There were points in the third quarter for instance where I found myself thinking-We've played a very good game. They have not played particularly well and yet every time I look up we're only up 5-7 points. The Pistons only really turned on the intensity in a few short stretches.

What's the point? I don't know. Could the game be a sort of false positive? Not if we can get some consistency in that type of effort/performance. Plus, that's one way of winning games in the NBA-take advantage if the opponent doesn't quite bring it.

3 of 5 coming at home and 4 of 5 look winable with the seeming challenge being Utah at home Sunday. We need to reel off some wins and get a couple games over .500. The entire team contribution is key.

Peck's point about not thinking in terms of specific 1st and 2nd unit is interesting. It's like our top 10 guys against anyone else's. We can exploit that against a good number of teams but we need to string together enough good games in that vein to establish it as our identity/calling card.

Re: Some quick odd thoughts about beating Detroit....

Peck's point about not thinking in terms of specific 1st and 2nd unit is interesting. It's like our top 10 guys against anyone else's. We can exploit that against a good number of teams but we need to string together enough good games in that vein to establish it as our identity/calling card.

Don't you guys think we're too deep? Like we should maybe string together some quantity to get some more quality?

Re: Some quick odd thoughts about beating Detroit....

Don't you guys think we're too deep? Like we should maybe string together some quantity to get some more quality?

Do you mean do we need to make a trade? Sorry but I was kind of unclear how to interpret the question. If that is what you're intimating, I think at some point, we could stand a move.

Wouldn't necessarily have be a blockbuster, but one that added one more player who could SOMEHOW contribute significantly. Don't know in what specific area nor how realistic it would be to actually make a deal like that happen.

Re: Some quick odd thoughts about beating Detroit....

Do you mean do we need to make a trade? Sorry but I was kind of unclear how to interpret the question. If that is what you're intimating, I think at some point, we could stand a move.

Wouldn't necessarily have be a blockbuster, but one that added one more player who could SOMEHOW contribute significantly. Don't know in what specific area nor how realistic it would be to actually make a deal like that happen.

That is exactly what I mean. And I agree that we don't need a blockbuster trade, necessarily. AI would be great but I don't think our core group is bad.

Re: Some quick odd thoughts about beating Detroit....

See Peck this when I love your posts, you are speaking the real here. Jermaine had a good game and you pointed it out with no hate. When he has a bad one you can point that out also. But no need to hate on him for no reason all the time, you are much better like this.

Re: Some quick odd thoughts about beating Detroit....

When he plays like this & as a team everybody gets theirs it can be fun for everyone. This is why I was so dissapointed by the post game meeting after game 8

That meeting was to create exactly what you liked vs Detroit. The team was running most of their sets featuring JO at the elbow, like that low post curl for guards off the 5 that JO would feed or the high PnR where JO would sit at the other elbow if the PG couldn't feed the 5 (Al, Baston, Harrison, Foster typically) going down the lane to post in front of the rim.

Since then they have been running a lot more sets with JO closer to the baseline and a more familiar half court game. Last night you saw the bench run a little, but a big chunk of the main starter offense worked out of the low post or PnR scores by Tins/Saras.

That was what JO was talking about, at least how it was presented publically. IMO Rick agreed and it's been working, along with the Foster/Danny switch and figuring out how to best rotate in the bench (doing more to always keep a couple of starters on the court).

Anyone else notice a trend over the years - JO plays better after a few games off. Please don't infer this as a negative comment - I just think I've noticed a trend.

So did Reggie. That was a major point about his final season for example.

And beyond that I'd have to say that JO has clearly been the best player on the team all year and had MANY really brilliant games so far.

When you tries to power through players - his shot gets blocked as often as it doesn't.

A couple of his best makes were going through the double team (when it didn't come hard enough) and then pushing up the shot right against Sheed. I will agree that in the past Sheed has had an advantage on this, but lately I think JO is just flat-out looking better than he did a lot of last season in this one regard (strength on interior shots).

meeting the guys at almost the half court line was Jackson. He even beat Armstrong out there.

He genuinely looked happy & was very very very supportive.

Also, Mr. Cool, Jamaal Tinsley for some reason decided to be a rah-rah guy

I've been saying this all year about Jack. He's definitely been bringing the postive side of his emotions this season. He always does, you just hope to get more of that and less of the frustration he displayed with Rick in CLE.

Tinsley definitely has been making an effort to show his support. It's been noticable right out of the gate. My view has been all year that it's Armstrong refusing to ever go quietly, refusing to ever just sit there, that has infected the rest of the team. Here's an old vet seeing mostly bench time and he's acting like every game is for the title and you are playing with your friends in the backyard.

To me that constant talking reminds guys to stay in it, and he makes it cool to express yourself more.

Granger mixing up his offense - exactly what I've been happy about the last 3-4 games from him. He's been coached on that clearly, or maybe RC changed the actual offense to cut down on situations where he was being asked to camp the 3 if that was the case.

Re: Some quick odd thoughts about beating Detroit....

Billups is a very good defender but for whatever he has a lot of trouble with Tinsley

Hmm, maybe a little but I'd characterize most of their meetings as Billups punishing Tinsley with his strength at both ends and clearly winning the matchup.

CB...err, I mean MN,CB started to get it going last night, but it didn't get out of control. I also thought Tinsley handled him and their pressure much better than normal.

Twice when they trapped him and forced him to pick up his dribble he bailed himself out by putting it off a player's leg. The only reason he got stuck in those spots is because someone like Shawe would let their man come way back to trap and they wouldn't stay close enough themselves to protect the passing lane over to them to get out of the trap. Long lobs out of traps are risky if you aren't in a really wide-open space with no one to throw over top of (guys left Tins in that spot a few times).

Back to Tins vs Billups, I need to look at some box scores on that because my memory was that Billups vs Tinsley was a big reason why they eliminated the Pacers in back to back playoffs. I realize in the first one Tins was hurt, but that doesn't mean he had success, it just explains why he struggled.

Re: Some quick odd thoughts about beating Detroit....

I think with his improved conditioning, JO has been doing better this year with that but I believe you are correct to some extent. I attribute that to him being one of the few players in the NBA that play hard on both sides of the ball and are expected to dominate on both sides as well.

Why are their so many misconceptions about JO? Since when do educated fans expect a guy averaging 18PPG to dominate.

Re: Some quick odd thoughts about beating Detroit....

Don't you guys think we're too deep? Like we should maybe string together some quantity to get some more quality?

I'm not sure were too deep but I totally agree with the premise. I'd like to see us trade a couple of "C" players for a couple of "B" players. After you get past the first 6/7 guys the talent level drops significantly. I know many will disagree with the players I'm about to name but it's the idea I ask you to consider.

Maybe Runi for Damon Stoudamire. The salaries match. This is his 12th year in the league and he's lost some of his athletic ability. He doesn't have trouble with pressure defense. He has about 50 games of playoff experience. He's shot 36% from beyond the arc in his career. He distributes the ball well. He's a solid vet who at 33 won't have a problem coming off the bench for the Pacers.

Maybe Daniels and Harrison for Corey Maggette. He doesn't have much of a three but he rebounds the ball well and is a proven scorer who could be a real threat off the bench behind Jack. He gets to the line.

Maybe Baston and Powell/Marshall for Lorenzen Wright. He's only one year older than Maceo but is entering his 11th season. He's a solid rebounder at over 10 per 48 and over 7 offensive per 48.

We'd still have young guys like Granger , Williams, & Greene for the future. Not to mention our starters are really in the prime of their careers right now. We'd have some solid vets coming off the bench.