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so we should trust people you know and not people I know. Gotcha! I agree with tetra when he said we shouldn't believe one person or another because those opinions are formed on political ideology. My friends from Canada and the uk just happen to be conservative. Your friend I am sure is a liberal (even though you will never admit it). The problem with out system is efficiency, not insurance reform ( which is the only thing that is changing and will cost millions of jobs).

How I hate this labeling. So typical right wing (now there is a label for you). I have a surprise for you: nobody will ask you at a doctor's office or the hospital if you are conservative or liberal. Nor does anybody has to listen to my friend or act upon his opinion. He is giving his opinion and his opinion alone based on his experience. You also don't have to trust him. You obviously have a trust issue with anybody remotely disagreeing with you.
I don't diss or dismiss your friends. And I don't care if they are conservatives or not. They have their experiences and I trust they are true. I know it is a philosophy you can not subscribe to.

The question I have for your friends is: have they lived under our system for at least a decade? Or do they know only their 'home' system. Technically I don't know any other health care system than ours. So my opinion will always be based on reading and the opinion of others who lived under a different system. But I tell you what you will be hard pressed to find anybody who lived under a different system, then lived under our system for over 20 years and has first hand knowledge of a different system for the passed two years.

Just to make you sleep better: we don't talk much politics. I would throw him into the conservative side based on him being definitely in the top 1%. The few talks we have show simply that he has a slight liberal, progressive tendency as well. I would put him into the middle of the road.

Heck, they can have a monarchy. I could care less. I just find it sad that in today's time so much interest is garnered by a monarchy without real powers yet live in absolutely riches while a country has financial problems all over the place. Not sure if I personally would feel comfortable living in Buckingham Palace while a stone throw away the suffering continues. But heck, if English people like it so be it.

Depending on sources the Royal Family cost between 60Million and 150Million Pounds in public funds. Considering they have just a representative function (with the PM have the political power) much like a President where the Chancellor has the power of politics (like Germany per say) I would say that money could be better served elsewhere. But just like Americans love to say 'socialism' for any change they don't understand and rather stay put because of the unknown, English people love their Royal family. Since I don't live there I could care less they are just a big and expensive media circus to me.

The reason why I mentioned the Monarchy in England is that if someone feels slighted in England because they feel the health care is not good enough the Royal family would be a good start for the red pen.

Nevertheless: England's and Canada's health care system is still ranked above ours.

How I hate this labeling. So typical right wing (now there is a label for you). I have a surprise for you: nobody will ask you at a doctor's office or the hospital if you are conservative or liberal. Nor does anybody has to listen to my friend or act upon his opinion. He is giving his opinion and his opinion alone based on his experience. You also don't have to trust him. You obviously have a trust issue with anybody remotely disagreeing with you.
I don't diss or dismiss your friends. And I don't care if they are conservatives or not. They have their experiences and I trust they are true. I know it is a philosophy you can not subscribe to.

The question I have for your friends is: have they lived under our system for at least a decade? Or do they know only their 'home' system. Technically I don't know any other health care system than ours. So my opinion will always be based on reading and the opinion of others who lived under a different system. But I tell you what you will be hard pressed to find anybody who lived under a different system, then lived under our system for over 20 years and has first hand knowledge of a different system for the passed two years.

Just to make you sleep better: we don't talk much politics. I would throw him into the conservative side based on him being definitely in the top 1%. The few talks we have show simply that he has a slight liberal, progressive tendency as well. I would put him into the middle of the road.

i will just ignore first paragraph of your post because the substance is just merly underhanded jabs at myself who you know nothing about. my friend from the uk came here for college on a swimming scholarship. he has only live here for just under a decade. most of his experience with healthcare here was probably free since he was a student athlete at fsu. his wife is a school teacher so they have probably always had good/great healthcare.

however, my friend from canada has lived here since he was 10 (hes 30 now). i would consider him a family friend since i know his brother, sister and parents very well, and they know my family. they absolutley hate the canadian system of government run healthcare. many times they have had family members come down to florida to have procedures. i have met many of their family and friends from canada. i get the feeling that if you need anything done that is a routine procedure in canada, it is a pain in the ass. if you need something major done, they do it right away. i also have heard that the medical research and quality of doctors there is not as good. most of the doctors are not from canada and go to schools in obscure countries.

another thing i would like to add. when i was working in property development in the mid to late 2000's, many of my clients were from england. being the pain in the ass that i am, i would ask the clients about their healthcare system and their overall opionion of their government. the overwhelming majority of them hated both. keep in mind, most of these clients had alot of $$$$.

take it for what its worth, that is just what i have heard from people i know

I know it hurts your conservative heart but individual lack of diagnosis or a false diagnosis happens here too. It happens everywhere. It is just a matter of percentage.

I am not focusing on individual cases but rather what does a certain health care system do for the majority of the population. No system is perfect and there will always be individuals who will not be happy but it is not about the individual here.

I certainly don't know how the health care system works in the England or Canada. Nor do I claim to know how it works in Germany. I just offered a perspective from someone living in the US for over 20 years yet has personal experience from a different country and can put both side-by-side and make an evaluation.

And Germany is by far not some **** hole or has a Monarchy where the money lives in huge palaces right next to people having trouble putting food on the table (England) or has a single payer system (Canada). Just listening to him I think Germany is the perfect example to run a comparison between public option vs private insurance and government run hospitals vs private hospitals because they have all that. It may hurt your conservative feelings but it is what it is.
No system is perfect and Germany is not even in the top 10 or top 20. But it shows you how pathetic we are in the middle of civilized nations when it comes to the health care services and health care providers.

Going by the WHO report which seems to be the gold standard in this argument we are #1 in healthcare services and providers and #15 in results. Purely subjective reasonings of efficency for the rest. USA should have the best resutls if we spend the most and have the best service and providers...or just maybe our population isn't worse than #15 because we do spend the most and have the best services and providers.

Going by the WHO report which seems to be the gold standard in this argument we are #1 in healthcare services and providers and #15 in results. Purely subjective reasonings of efficency for the rest. USA should have the best resutls if we spend the most and have the best service and providers...or just maybe our population isn't worse than #15 because we do spend the most and have the best services and providers.

I think there is a lot of truth to this. Americans are some of the laziest and unhealthy people on the planet. The fact that we're as high as 15 is a miracle in of itself...

If I could take your pain and frame it, and hang it on my wall,
maybe you would never have to hurt again...

I think there is a lot of truth to this. Americans are some of the laziest and unhealthy people on the planet. The fact that we're as high as 15 is a miracle in of itself...

have you ever been to europe? if you think we are lazy your opinion will quickly change when you realize that the cities pretty much shut down at night, during lunch and the work week has less hours. say what you want about americans, we know hard work. i can agree with unhealthy, we are slobs when it comes to nutrition.

have you ever been to europe? if you think we are lazy your opinion will quickly change when you realize that the cities pretty much shut down at night, during lunch and the work week has less hours. say what you want about americans, we know hard work. i can agree with unhealthy, we are slobs when it comes to nutrition.

Oddly enough, that raises their productivity. I was reading a study on it, and the average European worker is 25-50% more productive than the average American worker. They are better rested, have much less stress, and are much happier, so they get more done in less time. Things are a little off-kilter at the moment since the Euro is in a state of flux, but when stable, that's the case. But in that respect, you're right. Americans do work longer hours, which probably makes them less lazy.

It's not just nutrition, but people just don't do anything when they aren't working. It's all TV, video games, internet, etc. It could be a consequence of the long hours we work, but I don't think it's an excuse. I work about 30 hours a week with this consulting job, and then I have the 2 classes I teach and my own studies. Despite all that, I still play on a soccer team, which includes 2 practices a week, as well as the game. Additionally, I jog daily to stay in shape so i don't hurt myself on the field. If I can manage to still stay active despite being busy upwards of 60-70 hours per week, I see no reason why the 35 year old secretary who works a steady 40 hours per week can't get off the couch and go for a run. That's just my 2 cents on it, though...

EDIT: Yes, I have been to Europe. England, Germany, France, and Italy right after I got my bachelor's. Did the whole Europe tour that everyone does while in college. I didn't pay too much attention to the work habits of the locals, though. Was too busy getting drunk and trying to get laid the whole time...

Oddly enough, that raises their productivity. I was reading a study on it, and the average European worker is 25-50% more productive than the average American worker. They are better rested, have much less stress, and are much happier, so they get more done in less time. Things are a little off-kilter at the moment since the Euro is in a state of flux, but when stable, that's the case. But in that respect, you're right. Americans do work longer hours, which probably makes them less lazy.

It's not just nutrition, but people just don't do anything when they aren't working. It's all TV, video games, internet, etc. It could be a consequence of the long hours we work, but I don't think it's an excuse. I work about 30 hours a week with this consulting job, and then I have the 2 classes I teach and my own studies. Despite all that, I still play on a soccer team, which includes 2 practices a week, as well as the game. Additionally, I jog daily to stay in shape so i don't hurt myself on the field. If I can manage to still stay active despite being busy upwards of 60-70 hours per week, I see no reason why the 35 year old secretary who works a steady 40 hours per week can't get off the couch and go for a run. That's just my 2 cents on it, though...

EDIT: Yes, I have been to Europe. England, Germany, France, and Italy right after I got my bachelor's. Did the whole Europe tour that everyone does while in college. I didn't pay too much attention to the work habits of the locals, though. Was too busy getting drunk and trying to get laid the whole time...

agreed. oddly enough the reason i went to europe was because of soccer. the first time i went was with my high school team, we went to england and traveled around the country playing local teams. since i was a youth, my coach was a dick and kept pretty good tabs on us, the 2nd time was when i was in college and went with a bunch of players around orlando i used to play club with. both times i lived with local sponsor families. i got a good feeling of the lifestyle which i feel is way better than the lifestyle we have here. for the record, england sucks, except for the history. the 2nd time i went i went to beligum and holland (lived in belgium), my days consistanted of trying to find hash and get as wasted as possible, unfortunetly the main purpose for being there (soccer), took a backseat. anyway, back to your point, people seem much happier there, the culture is better and life moves much slower, i could easily see myself living there. that being said, i do appreciate the convienences we have here in the states.

most of us work more than 30 hours a week. i have a flexible schedule but even so its hard to find time to be active. i have two kids and a wife at home, the 2nd (shes two months old), is even more work. i played indoor every tuesday and have stopped doing that. im lucky if i can get to the gym more than twice a week. that will of course get easier as she gets older.

I think there is a lot of truth to this. Americans are some of the laziest and unhealthy people on the planet. The fact that we're as high as 15 is a miracle in of itself...

Activity is the biggest key IMO too.

activity by county...

lifespan...

Now I can't find the chart for obesity and diabetes now but it mirrors the activity and creates the (fried) chicken or the egg arguement but I've been plenty of places areas in the country that don't have a healthy diet, heck even differences within my state, but are more active and have longer lifespans. But not active and eating healthy cuts don't seem to be make nearly as big of a difference.

Reasons are thrown around from the partisan its the red state Republicans (except the worst in Miss and Ala with state politics dominated by democrats) to obsure such as the expansion of air conditioning. Its to damn hot and sticky to go out in Ala, Miss, etc. when you can sit inside a nice cool house. Or its just a general national indifference...as a poster from Canada once said to bad Rob Reiner doesn't hate his obesity as much as he does others smoking.

agreed. oddly enough the reason i went to europe was because of soccer. the first time i went was with my high school team, we went to england and traveled around the country playing local teams. since i was a youth, my coach was a dick and kept pretty good tabs on us, the 2nd time was when i was in college and went with a bunch of players around orlando i used to play club with. both times i lived with local sponsor families. i got a good feeling of the lifestyle which i feel is way better than the lifestyle we have here. for the record, england sucks, except for the history. the 2nd time i went i went to beligum and holland (lived in belgium), my days consistanted of trying to find hash and get as wasted as possible, unfortunetly the main purpose for being there (soccer), took a backseat. anyway, back to your point, people seem much happier there, the culture is better and life moves much slower, i could easily see myself living there. that being said, i do appreciate the convienences we have here in the states.

most of us work more than 30 hours a week. i have a flexible schedule but even so its hard to find time to be active. i have two kids and a wife at home, the 2nd (shes two months old), is even more work. i played indoor every tuesday and have stopped doing that. im lucky if i can get to the gym more than twice a week. that will of course get easier as she gets older.

Damn man, that would have been an amazing experience in high school. I went to a podunk little rural high school with a horrible soccer team, though. We'd have had no business going anywhere to play a game. What position did you play? I was a striker, usually center or right wing. I could, and still can, hold my own dribbling. Never had the big leg needed for college, unfortunately. I was fast as hell, though. Probably the only reason I lasted as long as I did before getting cut. Was a pretty humbling experience. Going from being pretty much the best person on the team to can't even make it to the bench. Didn't turn out too badly, though. It would have been nice to have the scholarship so I didn't have to work, but it did give me time to play in my band...