"If I'm overly patient it turns from patient to passive," he said. "I know they're worried about the walks, but I'm not looking to walk right now. If a guy walks me, he walks me. But I'm looking for a good, hard swing."

Just another example of a young player who doesn't get it. Just like strikeouts are not okay, a walk is as good as a hit. Maybe he should go play for Eric Wedge?

This is a player the Indians should not be concerned about moving in a trade to bring in an impact bat. He's overrated as a prospect, no where near being a "baseball" player.

"If I'm overly patient it turns from patient to passive," he said. "I know they're worried about the walks, but I'm not looking to walk right now. If a guy walks me, he walks me. But I'm looking for a good, hard swing."

Just another example of a young player who doesn't get it. Just like strikeouts are not okay, a walk is as good as a hit. Maybe he should go play for Eric Wedge?

This is a player the Indians should not be concerned about moving in a trade to bring in an impact bat. He's overrated as a prospect, no where near being a "baseball" player.

Toby Harrah would laugh at this kid.

Move him.

So if he's overrated and no where near a baseball player, what do you expect back for him? A bag of peanuts and a bucket of baseballs?

Chisenhall has shown surprisingly excellent plate coverage so far. He's swinging at 45.4% of pitches outside the strike zone -- that's 16.9% more than the average batter -- but he's also making contact on 81.8% of those pitches, which is 17.4% more than the average hitter. Guys who can consistently succeed as "bad ball" hitters are a rarity, and while the early results aren't all that bad (although a .283 obp is), I don't expect Chisenhall to succeed with that approach. He needs to keep in mind that, walks or no walks, getting ahead in the count and forcing the pitcher to put it over the plate is the best way to get pitches that he can put a "good, hard swing" on. I'm not panicked, but there's no arguing that his approach to this point has been anything but fundamentally flawed.

Pork Chop Pough wrote:Chisenhall has shown surprisingly excellent plate coverage so far. He's swinging at 45.4% of pitches outside the strike zone -- that's 16.9% more than the average batter -- but he's also making contact on 81.8% of those pitches, which is 17.4% more than the average hitter. Guys who can consistently succeed as "bad ball" hitters are a rarity, and while the early results aren't all that bad (although a .283 obp is), I don't expect Chisenhall to succeed with that approach. He needs to keep in mind that, walks or no walks, getting ahead in the count and forcing the pitcher to put it over the plate is the best way to get pitches that he can put a "good, hard swing" on. I'm not panicked, but there's no arguing that his approach to this point has been anything but fundamentally flawed.

Fully agree with this. For right now, I like that he's been agressive, but in the long run he needs to up that BB rate to atleast 7-8% to be successful. Even a guy like Guerrero walked in 8% of his PA's and he's a first ballot HoF'er in my opinion.

So yeah, some work needs to be done, but I think management and Chiz are aware of that. His quote says otherwise, but in the end I think he knows he needs to work on that approach.

Never been as high on Chisenhall as most and I always had him well behind Kipnis the past 2 years

He does have some nice power potential, but if he doesn't start to get this pretty fundamental baseball rule (and one the org is almost over-emphasizing on their specs), then yes I agree with the original poster that it IS alarming

a sub .300 OBP is simply unacceptable, even Jason Donald has a better career OBP...he is still the same player he was last year, that's another red flag....if he thinks his talent is so great that he doesn't need to work on putting his talent in a better position to succeed, then he simply doesn't get it...everyone's talented at this level...it takes more than just talent

Struthers, with writers like you promoting Chisenhall as the next Brooks Robinson, who believe all the crap organizational stool pigeons feed you so you'll write positive things about every player without thinking it through or knowing is down right amateur on your part.

Any player who doesn't walk has serious flaws. They will only get worse over time with an attitude like Chisenhall currently has. If he had the opposite stance in his approach and stated, he knows he needs to walk more then that would be different.

Your right, he won't bring much in return unless another team feels he is coachable and can change him. Another lousy draft choice by the Indians. Most of you don't believe Hannahan should be playing in front of Chisenhall. However, a 32 year old journeyman beat out the teams top prospect. That is the real story here. There must be a dam good reason. It's pretty dam obvious. Manny Acta, a real baseball guy, knows the value of the walk, he made it a priority for a team who whaled at pitches and led the league in K's. He changed the culture from the prior regime. He made the right decision regarding Hannaham. Chisenhall should be a finished product by now, he's not.

There are two really good stats one should look at when determining the maturity of an offensive ML player:

1. The walk to K ratio

2. How close they come to scoring 100 runs or more per season

Those two categories determine the exceptional players versus the players that struggle. All the other stats follow behind these two. For example, look how Michael Brantley has flourished, transitioned, then go back and view his minor league stats, especially walks to K. Exceptional. He knows the dam strike zone and was taught and coached very well. He will flourish offensively.

Don't know how some of you guys get jobs as "stringers". Maybe there should be a baseball IQ test a writer has to take prior to getting hired, if they get paid for their work, otherwise they should be required to maybe work as an apprentice under real writers like the late great ones ... Bob August, Chuck Heaton and Hal Lebovitz who were professionals. Seems like today they'll take any one and then call them a baseball writer / expert. They become dangerous and write stuff and fluff. The profession is definitely on the decline as far as the quality level.

Which means? It is real easy for a guy to rise through the top of the mess at the bottom and put themselves in postion quickly to be highly sought after, instead of settling for a wanna-be. With the sarcasm you feedback, any intelligent superior would fire you in a NY minute, because you don't understand your readers, who are customers are your most valuable asset. Without them you have no job. When you hear from one person about a player, before you write it and tell the world how little you know, go about 10 layers deep in your research with real baseball people, then write your comments. That's what professionals do.

Last edited by ironmike on Sat Jun 23, 2012 6:50 am, edited 1 time in total.

So Chiz is swinging at a lot of bad pitches but the good news is he doesn't miss very many of them. Great. The problem is that he either fouls them off or hits a weak pop-up or ground ball.

I can't imagine he'll be successful in the bigs if he continues to swing at 45% of pitches outside the strike zone. Pitchers will eat him up. He'll never see anything in the heart of the plate. My observation is that he always seems to be down in the count, and that's because he goes after bad pitches early, fouls them off, and is frequently down 0-2 or 1-2.

The Indians should tell him that his top priority is to reduce the number of pitches outside the strike zone he swings at. If that number doesn't come down immediately, Hannahan will be playing every day while Chiz works on his plate discipline in Columbus. I'd make that clear to him right now. It's the best thing you could do for him career-wise.

It's not about drawing more walks, although that will be a by product. It's about laying off bad pitches and forcing the pitcher to come into the strike zone with a more hittable pitch.

I'd make a video of him getting himself out swinging at pitches outside the zone. Make him understand he's getting himself out most of the time. Then show him a video of his base hits on pitches in the strike zone.

Prosecutor, same pants different pockets. Yes, true, walks will be a bi-product of your suggestion.

Point, Chisenhall came out of a top college program, he should be farther along at this point in his offensive approach.

Baseball, the fundamentals haven't changed over time, it's that the basics get swept under the rug. Manny Acta IMO is the best manager the Indians have had since Charlie Manuel. He knows the game and enforces the need for fundamentals.

Wish I could ask him why the hell Duncan and Cunningham are still on our team?

The Chiz has yet to go on a prolonged hot streak and is still in the "trying too hard to stay" mode. He has Jack Hannahan and Jose Lopez standing in his way to becoming a ML regular. It's clear that he's pressing. The Game hasn't slowed down for him at all..

There are a couple of good signs...

-his throwing accuracy has become laser-like. He appears to be getting comfortable making all the throws..-when he is making contact, it is with authority. The ball is really jumping off his bat... -he is really raking at Progressive Field.. He seems to have found a groove at home which portends future comfort when on the road

There are a couple of ominous signs...

-Strike Zone discipline.. one walk in sixty AB's.. is very poor. This goes toward pressing and pitch recognition issues..-He's had 12 AB's v. LHP's and has struck out four times & no hits..

He's a classic young prospect trying to establish himself on a ML roster. If this was 2009, he'd be lauded for his efforts.. but being in the middle of a pennant race.. marginal performance isn't good enough. Patience should be recommended here, but, it seems doubtful that will be the case.

ironmike wrote:Struthers, with writers like you promoting Chisenhall as the next Brooks Robinson, who believe all the crap organizational stool pigeons feed you so you'll write positive things about every player without thinking it through or knowing is down right amateur on your part.

Any player who doesn't walk has serious flaws. They will only get worse over time with an attitude like Chisenhall currently has. If he had the opposite stance in his approach and stated, he knows he needs to walk more then that would be different.

Your right, he won't bring much in return unless another team feels he is coachable and can change him. Another lousy draft choice by the Indians. Most of you don't believe Hannahan should be playing in front of Chisenhall. However, a 32 year old journeyman beat out the teams top prospect. That is the real story here. There must be a dam good reason. It's pretty dam obvious. Manny Acta, a real baseball guy, knows the value of the walk, he made it a priority for a team who whaled at pitches and led the league in K's. He changed the culture from the prior regime. He made the right decision regarding Hannaham. Chisenhall should be a finished product by now, he's not.

There are two really good stats one should look at when determining the maturity of an offensive ML player:

1. The walk to K ratio

2. How close they come to scoring 100 runs or more per season

Those two categories determine the exceptional players versus the players that struggle. All the other stats follow behind these two. For example, look how Michael Brantley has flourished, transitioned, then go back and view his minor league stats, especially walks to K. Exceptional. He knows the dam strike zone and was taught and coached very well. He will flourish offensively.

Don't know how some of you guys get jobs as "stringers". Maybe there should be a baseball IQ test a writer has to take prior to getting hired, if they get paid for their work, otherwise they should be required to maybe work as an apprentice under real writers like the late great ones ... Bob August, Chuck Heaton and Hal Lebovitz who were professionals. Seems like today they'll take any one and then call them a baseball writer / expert. They become dangerous and write stuff and fluff. The profession is definitely on the decline as far as the quality level.

Which means? It is real easy for a guy to rise through the top of the mess at the bottom and put themselves in postion quickly to be highly sought after, instead of settling for a wanna-be. With the sarcasm you feedback, any intelligent superior would fire you in a NY minute, because you don't understand your readers, who are customers are your most valuable asset. Without them you have no job. When you hear from one person about a player, before you write it and tell the world how little you know, go about 10 layers deep in your research with real baseball people, then write your comments. That's what professionals do.

Going by your "determining stats" Brantley(25), who has played in 280 games in MLB, is on pace to score 73 Runs this year. Brantley is averaging 1.85K's for every walk. Brantley is on pace for 65K's & 35 BB. Brantley has an OPS of .713 and an OPS+ of exactly 100. Flourishing.

Chiz is 23 & after 86 ML games has an OPS of .738 & an OPS+ of 103. Chiz has the 2nd highest SP on the team, trailing only Asdrubal. While his K/BB ratio is literally 8/1, he is on a 160 game pace of only 64 K's. Kid has some learning to do but plenty of time to do it. If he makes the adjusments he will be successful, with possibly huge upside. Not bad for the 29th pick in the draft.

Once major league pitchers figure out that he is going to swing at garbage pitches outside of the strike zone, that is all he is going to see. He is going to have to change his approach, or he is going to struggle. I am not a believer that a walk is as good as a hit, a walk doesn't move runners from first to third or bring runners home who are in scoring position, but not being selective about what pitches to swing at is a recipe for failure.

Prosecutor wrote:I just don't see how any hitter, no matter how talented, can be successful swinging at 45% of the pitches he sees which are outside the strike zone. To me that is definitely a recipe for failure.

Vlad Guerero made a career out of it.. swinging and making contact is what Lonnie's doing.. not swinging and missing.. Should Lonnie swing at strikes?.. sure.. Should Lonnie swing and make contact.. absolutely...

As great as Vlad was, he would have been a lot better had he been more disciplined. Just like Hafner would be a lot worse if he consistently swung at bad pitches.

Vlad got some amazing hits, including home runs, swinging at pitches outside the strike zone. But I think he struck himself out a lot more often than he was successful when chasing bad pitches. I saw him strike out plenty of times swinging at pitches in the dirt.

I see Lonnie hitting a lot of pop-ups and weak ground balls on pitches out of the zone, and his batting average reflects that.

Actually, Guerrero rarely struck out for a power hitter, let alone for a free swinger. Like I said earlier he also walked in 8% of his PA's during his career, which isn't bad at all. The problem is that Guerrero was a freak of nature and one of the best hitters this game has ever seen. It's not a model for success, because very few player have the talents to compare to Vlad.

Chisenhall needs to walk and lay off pitches out of the zone, and I'm sure everyone knows (including himself). For now, I like that he's atleast hitting the ball hard and we'll see how he adjusts as the season progresses.

Revisiting the stats... 79.4% of Chisenhall's at-bats start with strike #1. MLB average is 59.7%. Simplified, in a 5 at-bat game, the average hitter starts out ahead in the count twice, while Chisenhall is only doing it once. After a 1-0 count MLB batters hit .267/.378/.438. After a 0-1 count they hit .225/.266/.347.

Pork Chop Pough wrote:Revisiting the stats... 79.4% of Chisenhall's at-bats start with strike #1. MLB average is 59.7%. Simplified, in a 5 at-bat game, the average hitter starts out ahead in the count twice, while Chisenhall is only doing it once. After a 1-0 count MLB batters hit .267/.378/.438. After a 0-1 count they hit .225/.266/.347.

How many of those are swinging strikes though and more specifically, how many of those first pitch swinging strikes would've been a ball if he didn't swing?

I don't know of a place to find those numbers, but I suppose it's only fair that I point out Chisenhall actually is 5-for-10 so far when he puts the first pitch in play. I can't imagine that many of those first pitches are going to be within the strike zone once the advance scouting reports get around though.

Well, we coulda traded for the "Greek god of walks", but it looks like he'll become a White Sox. I hope they paid dearly cuz if they got for cheap, I think we'll look back and say "what if". No matter what the concerns some may have about this guy, he is a bonafide hitter and someone we certainly could have used to upgrade our lineup. Cleveland needs to up the ante or else.

ironmike wrote:Prosecutor, same pants different pockets. Yes, true, walks will be a bi-product of your suggestion.

Point, Chisenhall came out of a top college program, he should be farther along at this point in his offensive approach.

Baseball, the fundamentals haven't changed over time, it's that the basics get swept under the rug. Manny Acta IMO is the best manager the Indians have had since Charlie Manuel. He knows the game and enforces the need for fundamentals.

Wish I could ask him why the hell Duncan and Cunningham are still on our team?

Yeah.....no.

Chiz lost a year of development after getting kicked out of his original school, then as GSon said went to community college. He's 2 years younger than Kipnis in terms of baseball years; again Chiz will be 23 on the final day of the regular season....Kipnis was 25 on opening day. Not every player will come up and be a star right away, especially when they come from such a small program and lost of year of baseball by getting kicked out of school.

Chiz does need to walk more, but doesn't need to be Jim Thome at the plate. Bearga was never a big walk guy but 200 hits and 20 HRs makes up for that. If Chiz can bump up that walk rate to around 5-6% he should be fine. has the swing to get 180-200 hits with 25 HRs. Was rushed way too quickly and just needs some work still.

ironmike wrote:Prosecutor, same pants different pockets. Yes, true, walks will be a bi-product of your suggestion.

Point, Chisenhall came out of a top college program, he should be farther along at this point in his offensive approach.

Baseball, the fundamentals haven't changed over time, it's that the basics get swept under the rug. Manny Acta IMO is the best manager the Indians have had since Charlie Manuel. He knows the game and enforces the need for fundamentals.

Wish I could ask him why the hell Duncan and Cunningham are still on our team?

Yeah.....no.

Chiz lost a year of development after getting kicked out of his original school, then as GSon said went to community college. He's 2 years younger than Kipnis in terms of baseball years; again Chiz will be 23 on the final day of the regular season....Kipnis was 25 on opening day. Not every player will come up and be a star right away, especially when they come from such a small program and lost of year of baseball by getting kicked out of school.

Chiz does need to walk more, but doesn't need to be Jim Thome at the plate. Bearga was never a big walk guy but 200 hits and 20 HRs makes up for that. If Chiz can bump up that walk rate to around 5-6% he should be fine. has the swing to get 180-200 hits with 25 HRs. Was rushed way too quickly and just needs some work still.

Don't forget that he also changed positions, which might be why he's no Jack Hannahan with the glove.

I've been of the opinion that Chisenhall was rushed by this org. He was up in Akron in his first full season, and was up to Cleveland by 22. It's clear he hasn't really finished developing yet, but he still has time. This is essentially his first taste of failure. It's unfortunate that it happens at the big league level in a contending year, but it happens with just about everyone. He still has time to get better with the defensive approach and the strike zone discipline. Ultimately it was a lot easier for him to be undisciplined in the lower minors because his swing is so good, and he was still excelling. Maybe now that he's seen a little bit of major league pitching, he can actually understand what he needs to work on and why.

Edible14 wrote:Don't forget that he also changed positions, which might be why he's no Jack Hannahan with the glove.

I've been of the opinion that Chisenhall was rushed by this org. He was up in Akron in his first full season, and was up to Cleveland by 22. It's clear he hasn't really finished developing yet, but he still has time. This is essentially his first taste of failure. It's unfortunate that it happens at the big league level in a contending year, but it happens with just about everyone. He still has time to get better with the defensive approach and the strike zone discipline. Ultimately it was a lot easier for him to be undisciplined in the lower minors because his swing is so good, and he was still excelling. Maybe now that he's seen a little bit of major league pitching, he can actually understand what he needs to work on and why.

Very true on the position change. I don't think he'll ever be a Hannahan with the glove, but positions changes are something that can take time. Too many people think the move from SS to 3B is an easy one. It's not at all.