2 Samuel 16:9,11 - "Why should this dead dog curse my lord the king? Let me go over, I pray thee, and take off his head...let him alone, and let him curse; for the Lord hath bidden him."

Matthew 7:15 - “Watch out for false prophets. They come to you in sheep’s clothing, but inwardly they are ferocious wolves.

Matthew 24:11 - “…and many false prophets will appear and deceive many people.”

Wednesday, November 3, 2010

Ed Young's Tithing Sermon: Show Me the Money!

Update: There is one place you can still listen to the Ed Young sermon excerpt asking for his church to fill out forms with their checking account and routing number. It is at Fighting for the Faith, on the November 2nd, 2010 podcast, starting at about the 9:00 minute mark. Chris Rosebrough analyzes the audio of the video that was removed. So far Fellowship Church hasn't successfully removed it from the Rosebrough website.

The video of Ed Young posted here on Sunday has gotten quite a bit of play around the blogosphere. It has even moved over to YouTube. Christians and non-Christians alike are flabbergasted that a pastor from the pulpit is trying to get people to commit to give 10% of their income to his church through automatic withdrawl.

But that is not even close to the worst part of that sermon.

The worst part is what preceded it. The video above is a compilation of excerpts from the first part of that sermon.

He delivers a tithing sermon to scare, humuliate, intimidate, and offend his church members into giving 10% of their income. But if you go to a church where the preacher tells the people that they are obligated to give 10% of their income to the church, you probably have heard many of these same things. But Ed puts them all together in one single whopper of a manipulative, self-serving, heretical sermon.

But boy, he sure is a good performer.

He tells them they are cursed if they don't tithe. He wonders why they come to church if they don't bring the tithe, tells them to stay home or play golf, to quit wasting Ed's and God's time. He says to watch your wallet if you're sitting next to a non-tither. He brags that "blessings track him down" for his 29 years of faithfulness. He even declares multiple times that the blessings of the Christian life are "all about the money".

Ed even says "Show me the money" - which I take to mean "show me your bank account and routing number".

He says that if you don't tithe, your marriage, your job, your kids, will all suffer because you're under God's curse.

I hope that someone in Ed's circle of friends - maybe John Cross, or maybe Ed's father - someone, will help Ed see that he is abusing his congregation.

97 comments:

Anonymous
said...

This guy is ridiculous. He mentions having a $25,000 salary 29 years ago as if he was dirt poor at the time. According to the inflation calculator here, $25,000 in 1981 is worth over $58,000 in today's dollars.

i agree with tithing. and i don't think it's all together a bad idea to have an automatic withdrawal (i set one up myself), but some of his tactics, and the idea of writing it down and putting it in the offering plate... that's just crazy.

there seems to be a bit of prosperity Gospel in there, which is just scary.

don't every expect much from Cross. I'm a former member/employee of his. I left when Ed Young seemed to become his idol, following the ways of Ed Young, and not Jesus.

Dog - Is it possible that Ed believe's the tithe for the support of the local church? Is it possible that he does not believe the OT tithe of 10% is for a former generation? Is it possible that Ed does not agree with some people's interpretation of 23%?

If he believes it is still a Truth to be obeyed then his curse statement is in line with scripture.

Of course you have your opinion but stating he is teaching / preaching heresy is as bad as calling someone a sociopath. IMPO.

I'm not saying I agree with Ed's approach but if he is in theological step with Homer sr. and jr., but using a "in your face" method he will probably be bashed.

But method is much different than message and you have chosen to call him on both.

I do have one question: Is Ed (on this subject) a theological and methodological nitwit?

"Is it possible that Ed believe's the tithe for the support of the local church?"

There are 2 possibilities.

He is either unable to interpret scripture correctly, doesn't understand that what he is promoting (10%) is not the model set forth in the OT, and he doesn't realize that the three tithes in the OT went toward Levitical priests (who couldn't own anything) the poor, and to religious festivals (never money and never to the local church).

Or he is purposely deceiving his flock to bring more money into the church. Money that goes to pay his huge salary and to lease the private jet that he uses.

Take your pick.I can't judge his heart, but it's one or the other.

"Is it possible that Ed does not agree with some people's interpretation of 23%?"

You obviously don't understand what the word interpretation means.

Interpretation is used when something isn't clear. Leviticus and Deuteronomy clearly state that the OT Isrealites paid 3 tithes.

One to the Levitical priests (who couldn't own anything), one for the poor and widows, and another (every 3rd year) to pay for religious festivals.

What part of that is unclear or interpreted? Where is the 10% given to the local church in the OT? Where did they give money for the tithe? Every mention of the tithe in the OT says to pay fruit or flock.

There is no debate that the OT Israelites paid 3 tithes. Now if you want to present a case that 2 of the 3 OT tithes are not for today, I would love to hear it.

As Lucy told Rickey, you got a lot of splainin' to do.

In other words, your argument isn't with us. It's with the Bible.

"If he believes it is still a Truth to be obeyed then his curse statement is in line with scripture."

Believing something is true doesn't make it true or Biblical.

"Of course you have your opinion but stating he is teaching / preaching heresy is as bad as calling someone a sociopath. IMPO."

Not if what he is saying is true. Otherwise you are promoting relativism.

"I'm not saying I agree with Ed's approach but if he is in theological step with Homer sr. and jr., but using a "in your face" method he will probably be bashed."

Really? Why not? Homer sr, jr are not the court of final arbitration. The Bible is. Stop worshiping men!

"But method is much different than message and you have chosen to call him on both."

80% of Ed young's church membership need to leave the church know. Those people should choose a place to meet and have a great time in fellowship. choose a god fearing man as a teacher while giving him some living standards. No jet. And learn the truth of the bible.

Does he really believe that someone coming to church without the tithe is wasting their time, and will "get nothing"?

I think what he believes about the tithe is the same as what your dad believes about the tithe, and what Gaines believes about the tithe; but I give credit to Ed - he has the guts to really, really preach it. After all, if a non-tither is really robbing the God of the universe, and is cursing himself AND his wife and kids, Ed is not going far enough. He should be preaching this each week, and after he asks people to accept Jesus, he should beg and plead with them to commit to tithe. Every week.

But the bigger question is: do they really, truly believe it? I don't think so. I don't believe that Ed, or your dad, or Gaines really truly believes not tithing is to bring a curse. I don't think they would pass a lie detector test if asked "Do you believe a non tither is literally robbing God?" If they believed it, they would preach it every week and they would preach it as hard as Ed just did.

Don't Christians ever get tired of getting manipulated by guilt, fear, and shame? I mean these are grown men sitting there taking this disrespectful, insulting harangue from another man who is no better than they are.

There is no respect. There is no give and take. Hopefully his talk re golf or football will actually get them thinking-"You know, that's a very good question! Why AM I getting up to go hear someone talk to me in this way on Sunday morning?"

If you are part of the 80% that do not tithe (which is more like 95%), here is what you do:

Stop giving ANYTHING to Ed's church.

He said that you are just "spitting in the wind" if you don't bring the tithe.

If you are sacrificially giving at 5% - or maybe you have felt led of the Lord to give 5% to Ed's church, and 5% to other Christian organizations...what Ed is telling you is STOP GIVING THE 5%. You heard him: you are wasting his time by showing up without the tithe, and you heard him: stay home. Or golf. You're taking up space at the church.

So if you can't give 10%, then give nothing, because less than 10% is an unclean, an unholy gift, and you are bringing a curse on Ed's church if you give it and they accept it.

So non-tithers, stop giving anything to Ed's church, and give it to other Christian organizations that are doing more gospel ministry than Ed, and that will appreciate your gift, and that won't spend the money on airplanes. They won't demand your account number and routing number, they won't ask you for 10%, they will thank you in Jesus' name for whatever you are able to contribute to their work.

And by the way, if you want to see a secular parallel of this sermon, go to Youtube and search "Alec Baldwin Glen Gary Glenross", and watch Baldwin's classic scene in that movie where he rakes the salesmen over the coals because they are not "closers". Substitute the word "tither" for "closer" in that Baldwin scene, and that is Ed Young. Warning, however: there are about 20 f-bombs and other obscenities as Baldwin rips into grown men as they sit there and take it - but the video demonstrates how low human beings will go in trying to berate other people for the sake of the dollar. It is a disturbing scene, but it helps one to more fully understand the mentality of someone driven completely by greed and money, and how low some leaders will go to humiliate other people just to get them to do what they want.

Let me see if I have this correct. If EY BELIEVES that the OT teaching on the tithe is correct for New Testament believers, then why is he not demanding the 23%? That would be more consistent is it not? If he believes the OT tithe was a tax, for use by a theocracy, then the great majority of us, in fact almost every one of us, is already paying a tax that exceeds 23%.

If he truly believes that this part of the OT is correct and still applicable to us, then will he stone his children to death if they disobey him? Seriously, can he believe one OT teaching while ignoring the others? I think not. EY is yet another example of a shameful man who thrives on his ability to belittle others.

"Perhaps if you hadn't been guilty of the same logical flaw, I wouldn't have mentioned it."

Anon (mysterious, evasive, hiding behind others who carry the same bogus name), I have never said I was right all the time. For the most part on this thread I have asked questions. but I am one who believes in storehouse tithing.

So non-tithers, stop giving anything to Ed's church, and give it to other Christian organizations that are doing more gospel ministry than Ed, and that will appreciate your gift, and that won't spend the money on airplanes. They won't demand your account number and routing number, they won't ask you for 10%, they will thank you in Jesus' name for whatever you are able to contribute to their work.___________________________________

Thanks WD. This is exactly what I did when the "executive pastor" told me the exact the same things in front of my wife and son. (And I go to a church of about 600-700 attendees here in Jax) He preached as gospel truth that I was a free loader, riding on other mens' donations, that I needed to "man up" and "be a man" and give 10%. I was only giving about 4% due to other commitments and gifts I was making. He also said by his accepting less than 10% from us (me), that he was putting our church and me under a curse. I followed his logic and if what he says is true, then my ONLY CHOICE was to stop giving 4%. Which I did. Now I give nothing to that church. I think that is what he was trying to accomplish. I have to respect his integrity though. I mean, his conviction is so strong he would rather me give nothing than to give 4%. But they still are behind budget and still begging for money and still cutting ministries to pay his salary (we have a senior pastor, too) and his wife's salary. By the way, God continues to bless me in every way. Health, finances, car keeps running, fridge is still working, etc.)

Ben, you may have deluded yourself into thinking that you are not being hypocritical because you use a first name that thousands of others have (with no link to show who you really are), but the rest of us are laughing.

"I have never said I was right all the time."

Straw-man argument

"For the most part on this thread I have asked questions."

You mean when you weren't insulting people and ignoring the clear teaching of scripture?

"but I am one who believes in storehouse tithing."

I repeat - believing in something does not make it true or Biblical.

You make the claim and it is your responsibility back it up with scripture and answer objections.

You can start by explaining where the storehouse in your local church. In the OT it was a literal storehouse that held food for people.

"If you don't that is your loss."

As you would say Ben, that's your opinion. And since your opinion isn't backed by scripture, it is a moot point.

Ben - why do you believe this? Did some man teach you this? Did that same man make his living off of people tithing?

Anyway, please show me anywhere, in the OT or the NT that Christians gave 10% of their income to a local church budget.

Did Jesus tithe? He was a carpenter.

Did he ever ask anyone to tithe that wasn't a lost legalistic pharisee already?

Did he tell the rich young ruler "give 10% and give it to the church and come follow me?" I bet the rich man would have jumped at that easy chance. But no, he said sell everything, give it to the poor, and then come and follow me.

Why are you not discussing that NT verse and instead want to talk about what farmers were to give to the temple storehouse priests back in the OT?

It means a tenth. Now if there were only one mentioned in the OT you would be correct. But that's not the case is it? So, that means you are incorrect. Unless you can explain why you aren't responsible for the other two.

That's kind of like saying I paid my federal taxes so I don't have to pay for state and local.

"And how do we know you are "Ben". And if you are, how many Ben's are there in the world?"

I have no idea but I don't think there is anyone anonymous in the world.

"Can we please use just a touch of logic?"

This isn't about logic but about the willingness to stand up and be counted for what you say. I have nothing to hide. I'd rather be wrong and brave than right and afraid. In this case though I am right and brave.

Now when you get to have the final say so for all of mankind on how scripture is to be interpreted, maybe you'll be brave enough to trust the God who gave it instead of hide so men won't know you and retaliate.

My God is bigger than any man who might oppose or threaten me. That's my God. My fear is a healthy fear, it is in God not man.

MAN! I believe in tithing, but I sure don't believe this stuff. I am blessed beyond measure by the gracious hand of God and I can tell you and show that the blessings of God are not all financial. I am not rich (not even close) but I have no shortage of things to thank God for this Thanksgiving!

However, Ed Young and his people beating ways are not one of the things that I will be thankful for!

Yes, Ben you are incredibly brave by using your first name with no link to identify who you are. The martyrs would be impressed.

"I'd rather be wrong and brave than right and afraid"

And you prove it every time you post a comment.

"In this case though I am right and brave."

You are neither.

"Now when you get to have the final say so for all of mankind on how scripture is to be interpreted, maybe you'll be brave enough to trust the God who gave it instead of hide so men won't know you and retaliate."

Take your own advice anon-Ben.

"My God is bigger than any man who might oppose or threaten me. That's my God. My fear is a healthy fear, it is in God not man."

When you use your real first and last name and link to a real identity, then you can talk.

So Ben... when will you start stoning your children? Seriously, it was the same God who directed the stoning of your children and then instructed people in the tithe, right?

You'll let us all know when you decide to rightly discern scripture for everyone else, despite the facts being completely different. Just provide the time, and place so those of us who have studied our scripture can call the authorities.

You mean that you figured out that you are being a hypocrite by calling other anonymous posters out while only listing your first name (which is no different than being anonymous)?

And by the way, as a general rule, those who spend a lot of time talking about how brave they are are generally the least qualified to do so. Real me don't need to.

"It matters not if it is Ed, Mac, or your grandma: You don't trust anyone."

Still worshiping people. I'm not sure what your brain is composed of, but I'll bet it could scratch a diamond.

"I'm finished with negative anons."

Does this mean that you won't be posting any longer?

"Come out of the closet and we can talk again."

Post your real first and last names and link to a site where you can be identified, then answer all of the questions that have been asked of you about the tithe and I'll consider educating you.

But first you will have to give up on hypocritically bashing anons when you haven't identified yourself. And besides, the only reason you are doing it is because you can't answer straight forward questions about your beliefs. It's obvious.

"Until then I'll stick with real people who give me cause to trust."

LOL!You start off by saying that my problem is that I don't trust anyone, and end by saying you don't trust me.

I still believe that tithing is biblical and we will continue to give our tithe and offerings at FBC Jax. However, this is probably the first time ever that I would have to say I agree with the dog. This is way over the line.

I cannot find any scripture where God sends an avenging angel down here to earth to punish non-tithers. People that tithe die in accidents, mishaps, disease every day just like non-tithers. It rains on the just as well as the unjust. So we now hear someone who thinks up these false ideas playing the Punishment game to his members so he will have money enough for whatever he decides the funds are to go. Strange behavior. I would walk out of there asap and not look back. I recall Paul saying even if an angel brought you another GOSPEL don't believe em. Kind of like that tv preacher that use to mail you a "prayer handkerchief" if you sowed faith and mailed him $25.00. Those kind of con men give Christianity a bad name and no wonder people stay lost preferring their own behavior rather than those that peddle this junk!!! Honesty is always the best policy for individuals as well as organizations even if Bankruptcy occurs.

Anon 6:21. Yes, and the world was supposedly flat until Columbus sailed the ocean blue. Do a real study in the Bible in the New Testament and you will find the word tithe is never mentioned for the Gentile or the Church. Sorry, but you have been fooled. Its strictly the Old Testament. Jesus paid it all remember that hymn? If you fail to tithe you are in your own way putting yourself back under the Law. Give what you want to whomever, Just don't claim its a tithe since that is not scriptural. Yes, Jesus mentioned it in Matt and Luke but he was talking to the Jews prior to the CROSS.

7, 650 sq fett of "heated" space. Real estimates have it over 10,000 feet. Must include a large garage for the reported missus' Mercedes SUV, bikes, and other "stuff." A "holenutha level." Didn't know he was referring to real estate in that song.

Anon 6:21. Yes, and the world was supposedly flat until Columbus sailed the ocean blue. Do a real study in the Bible in the New Testament and you will find the word tithe is never mentioned for the Gentile or the Church. Sorry, but you have been fooled. Its strictly the Old Testament. Jesus paid it all remember that hymn? If you fail to tithe you are in your own way putting yourself back under the Law. Give what you want to whomever, Just don't claim its a tithe since that is not scriptural. Yes, Jesus mentioned it in Matt and Luke but he was talking to the Jews prior to the CROSS.

I Thess 5:9 " For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ". Notice if you are saved you are promised no wrath from God. Puts a whole lot of different light on this subject of tithing doesn't it? Enjoy.

"This isn't about logic but about the willingness to stand up and be counted for what you say. I have nothing to hide. I'd rather be wrong and brave than right and afraid. In this case though I am right and brave."

You must be terribly young. Once again, you use NO logic. You are generic Ben. How can a generic Ben stand up and count for what he (if you are a he) says? Why are you hiding behind generic Ben and then bragging that you are brave?

Proving for us all that thinking is not something encouraged for the followers of celebrities.

Just to clarify, those were the numbers for Ed Young, "Sr.'s" house in Houston and did not include the 874 sf of garage space. It sits on about 1/2 an acre of land in a suburban neighborhood. "Sr." is the "senior" pastor of 2nd Baptist, Houston.

Ed, "Jr." lives 250+ miles away in Flower Mound, TX (DFW area) on a little over 4 acres of land near Grapevine Lake. His "crib" is about 7850 sf plus a 1564-sf garage. For Dee, that's the equivalent of an 8-car garage.

"Anon 6:21. Yes, and the world was supposedly flat until Columbus sailed the ocean blue. Do a real study in the Bible in the New Testament and you will find the word tithe is never mentioned for the Gentile or the Church. Sorry, but you have been fooled. Its strictly the Old Testament. Jesus paid it all remember that hymn? If you fail to tithe you are in your own way putting yourself back under the Law. Give what you want to whomever, Just don't claim its a tithe since that is not scriptural. Yes, Jesus mentioned it in Matt and Luke but he was talking to the Jews prior to the CROSS."

Anon 6:21 - Let me further clarify what I believe Anon 9:18 is saying. Take your bible, rip out the outdated, of no use OT and burn it. It can't be trusted or followed except as a lesson in history. It has no viable application to present day NT Christians. As a matter of fact, Jesus got it wrong... He did come to abolish the Law, not fulfill it.

MY OPINION: I think the Lord is coming very soon!!Churches today are churches in name only and basically are totally useless. Except as places for so called preachers to get rich, and for members to be seen and visit with "friends".I was a member of a church for years and years. But, about 15 years ago I started noticing churches going in a different direction. Then we still had a few of the older pastors around that made their focus on getting people saved. Many have now died, and we are left with these "commercial salesmen". This was/is most evident in the church I attended. The younger generation don't know what "real church" is. They weren't around for the "real preachers" of the Word. Many of todays preachers misquote and misuse the Bible in order to achieve their agendas. Churches have gone pagan as have many of those that lead them. It's all about MONEY now. I would ask those in leadership including the "enablers" of the preachers,: How are you going to face God with what you have allowed to happen in the church? You can't claim naivete, because you see it now and are still allowing and enabling it! Many of you are "upstanding" in your communities. You have influential titles and positions. Maybe that is the problem. You are all about "yourselves.....ELITEST. You have helped these preachers basically destroy the churches.If you admit the preacher is wrong, then you must admit you are wrong. And, many just can't do that. You have no integrity. You will answer to God for your arrogance!For the rest of us that are leaving: "The kingdom of God is truly within us". It isn't in churches any longer.

As a second thought: I wonder how many churches are in this elitest position of destroying themselves from within, because of "shopaholic, greedy wives" putting the preachers in the position of demanding more and more money from the pew sitters in order to keep them in the millionaire lifestyle they demand. This is just an opinion/question as I see it. But, the True Fact is JESUS is coming very soon. "Even so come quickly Lord Jesus".

Ben and what verses are you basing that on? The commandments were written for and by the Jews. If you don't realize that you have not paid any attention to the doctrines covered in the Bible. No one can pick and choose which to apply for themselves as you suggest. It has to be taken in context and you missed it with that last statement. The Law of Sin was ended on the cross by the substitution of Jesus Christ on the cross. That is exactly what Jesus came to do away with sin, hell, and death through His blood. Do not infer that tithing is still applicable today to Gentiles or the Church because it isn't. If you could have found some scriptures on the word tithe in the New Testament other than what Jesus said in Matt and Luke you would have posted them for us. As a matter of fact please tell us other Gentiles who are born again where Paul ever ONE TIME told us to tithe. Good luck. Been around the block a few times myself and your blowing smoke doesn't hold up.

"Anon 9:18 is saying. Take your bible, rip out the outdated, of no use OT and burn it. It can't be trusted or followed except as a lesson in history. It has no viable application to present day NT Christians. As a matter of fact, Jesus got it wrong... He did come to abolish the Law, not fulfill it."

And you do the exact same thing with the two other tithes mentioned in the OT, laws like stoning your children for disobeying, and NT verses like - 2 Corinthians 9: 7

Do not be fooled FBCJ wants and needs your money. Will they go over the edge to get it? Or who will they sell out to get it? If every member gave 10% they would not need to stoop to that level and be able to focus on god. T/F

Hebrews 7:8 - In the one case, the tenth is collected by men who die; but in the other case, by him who is declared to be living.

Melchizedek received Abraham’s tithe 400 years before Moses and the law. The Hebrew writer shows that Melchizedek is a prefigure of Christ, possibly a Christophony. We can conclude that just as Abraham gave a tithe to Melchizedek we give a tithe to Christ who is declared to be living.

In Matthew 23:23 - Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You give a tenth of your spices—mint, dill and cummin. But you have neglected the more important matters of the law—justice, mercy and faithfulness. You should have practiced the latter, without neglecting the former.

These are the very words of God, they are eternal. He specifically states, do not neglect the tithe.

If you say this doesn’t count for we in the NC then you are saying that Jesus is nothing more than a Jewish prophet or teacher of the law.

Then Paul speaks of the giving to support the church so that those who preach the gospel should receive their living from the gospel.

1 Corinthians 9:13-14 - Don't you know that those who work in the temple get their food from the temple, and those who serve at the altar share in what is offered on the altar? In the same way, the Lord has commanded that those who preach the gospel should receive their living from the gospel.

Let’s compare two verses, one from the NT and one from the old.

Anyone who receives instruction in the word must share all good things with his instructor. (Gal 6:6)

And you and the Levites and the aliens among you shall rejoice in all the good things the LORD your God has given to you and your household. When you have finished setting aside a tenth of all your produce in the third year, the year of the tithe, you shall give it to the Levite, the alien, the fatherless and the widow, so that they may eat in your towns and be satisfied. (Deut 26:11-12)

This subject is and has been debated for a long time. It is obvious I stand on one side and many of you stand on the other but to question the thinking ability or integrity on one in their approach to scripture (which I have done and should not have - please forgive - I saw it more as a game to be played than a subject to be discussed) we cross the line of fair and honest dialog.

Many men continue to believe in storehouse tithing. Calling them out as wrong and false teachers, not being true to the word does not help the discussion.

I have looked and looked and I see no where in the NT where there is a hint that the tithe is abolished. I'll keep what is there, both in OT and New.

Hebrews 7:8 - In the one case, the tenth is collected by men who die; but in the other case, by him who is declared to be living.

Melchizedek received Abraham’s tithe 400 years before Moses and the law. The Hebrew writer shows that Melchizedek is a prefigure of Christ, possibly a Christophony. We can conclude that just as Abraham gave a tithe to Melchizedek we give a tithe to Christ who is declared to be living.

In Matthew 23:23 - Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You give a tenth of your spices—mint, dill and cummin. But you have neglected the more important matters of the law—justice, mercy and faithfulness. You should have practiced the latter, without neglecting the former.

These are the very words of God, they are eternal. He specifically states, do not neglect the tithe.

If you say this doesn’t count for we in the NC then you are saying that Jesus is nothing more than a Jewish prophet or teacher of the law.

Then Paul speaks of the giving to support the church so that those who preach the gospel should receive their living from the gospel.

1 Corinthians 9:13-14 - Don't you know that those who work in the temple get their food from the temple, and those who serve at the altar share in what is offered on the altar? In the same way, the Lord has commanded that those who preach the gospel should receive their living from the gospel.

Let’s compare two verses, one from the NT and one from the old.

Anyone who receives instruction in the word must share all good things with his instructor. (Gal 6:6)

And you and the Levites and the aliens among you shall rejoice in all the good things the LORD your God has given to you and your household. When you have finished setting aside a tenth of all your produce in the third year, the year of the tithe, you shall give it to the Levite, the alien, the fatherless and the widow, so that they may eat in your towns and be satisfied. (Deut 26:11-12)

This subject is and has been debated for a long time. It is obvious I stand on one side and many of you stand on the other but to question the thinking ability or integrity on one in their approach to scripture (which I have done and should not have - please forgive - I saw it more as a game to be played than a subject to be discussed) we cross the line of fair and honest dialog.

Many men continue to believe in storehouse tithing. Calling them out as wrong and false teachers, not being true to the word does not help the discussion.

I have looked and looked and I see no where in the NT where there is a hint that the tithe is abolished. I'll keep what is there, both in OT and New.

When I read 2 Corinthians 9:7, I see a passage speaking of supporting the poor, not the church. This seems clear to be saying this is to be done above and beyond the support for the church, not in place of.

Ben, talking about tithing in this forum is a losing proposition. It is like the liberals and conservatives of which you can apply the label to whomever. It is like abortion versus anti-abortion. Whatever side you are on it is almost impossible to justify a position to the opposing viewpoint because both sides are just as passionate in what they believe. It would be nice to have civil discourse on matters such as this but I fear each side is blinded by their passion and cannot accept the others use and interpretation of Scripture. So in my opinion, this and other discussions will go on until eternity, because no matter how persuasive or how much Scripture one can quote, one side will probably never convince the other.

Last thought is that all sides should stick to their interpretation and position and not resort to name calling.

When I read 2 Corinthians 9:7, I see a passage speaking of supporting the poor, not the church. This seems clear to be saying this is to be done above and beyond the support for the church, not in place of.

November 4, 2010 3:51 PM

Ben, think of this logically. HOW were they supporting the "church"? Remember, the PEOPLE are the church. Not the building. they were not paying for buildings or salaries. They were helping some take the Gospel to other areas and they were caring for the poor (widows, etc). (Also, those believers in Jerusalem who were being persecuted)

So, if the "poor" are saved, they are the "church". WE ARE the CHURCH. They had no buildings to pay for or maintain. They met in homes and sometimes at Solomons Porch. For example, the church in Galatia means all the home churches in that area.

The first church in Europe started in Lydia's home. Many believe that Chloe of 1 Corin had a church in her home....hence "Chloe's people".

In Acts, we see Paul renting the Tyrannus school so he could preach but that was because they did not want him out in the street preaching!

It is very hard to wrap our heads around these facts because we have had it drilled into our heads the church is a building. It really does hold us back spiritually to think such a thing.

"Ben, talking about tithing in this forum is a losing proposition. It is like the liberals and conservatives of which you can apply the label to whomever. It is like abortion versus anti-abortion."

That is ridiculous. The "tithe" cannot be proven to exist in the New Covenant. There is no "temple" or Levite Priest. If you guys want to be under the law then you will be judged by the law.

What on earth do you do with Barnabas? He sold his entire estate and gave it to "church" (Remember, the church is PEOPLE...the ekklesia). We hear of no more giving from him after that. Show me one place Paul teaches a tithe to the churches. And be sure to show me the AMOUNT he declares.

WD: Don't mean to interfere. But, Ben is a nuisance. He likes to argue. He isn't interested in what the Bible truly does or does not teach. It's your Blog., but is there any way to ignore him for awhile. When I see his ramblings I just move further down the blog., without reading the foolishness. He must be very young and dumb. But it is aggravating to have to edit my reading, as I like to read all responses. I know you are very good about printing all responses (even mine). EXCEPT THIS ONE PLEASE DON"T PRINT! Ben is taking over the blog., to a degree. Thanks!P.S. Was delighted with your court victory. Am praying with you for the next one. God bless you and your family, and thanks for "standing tall", for our rights.

"This subject is and has been debated for a long time. It is obvious I stand on one side and many of you stand on the other but to question the thinking ability or integrity on one in their approach to scripture (which I have done and should not have - please forgive - I saw it more as a game to be played than a subject to be discussed) we cross the line of fair and honest dialog."

That explains why you ignore contradictions in your beliefs and in what the Bible teaches.

"Many men continue to believe in storehouse tithing. Calling them out as wrong and false teachers, not being true to the word does not help the discussion."

So was Paul wrong when he told Christians to be Bereans and test what he said by the word of God and reject that which is false?

How is what you are saying different?

"I have looked and looked and I see no where in the NT where there is a hint that the tithe is abolished. I'll keep what is there, both in OT and New."

I see no place in the NT where stoning your child for disobedience is abolished.

"When I read 2 Corinthians 9:7, I see a passage speaking of supporting the poor, not the church. This seems clear to be saying this is to be done above and beyond the support for the church, not in place of."

That's because you (like many uninformed church members) don't understand what the word church meant when the Bible was written.

It's not a building. It's people.

So, giving food to Levitical priests (which we don't have today), giving food to the poor and widow, and giving food for religious festivals - you can say that clearly equals give 10% of your check to the local church? You have no problem with that giant stretch?

Can you even see how self-contradictory and desperate that interpretation is?

By the way, if you read the entire chapter of 2 Corinthians 9, you will see it isn't just about the poor. It is a NT model for giving.

It sickens and shames me as an SBC pastor. This is heresy plain and simple. How is it we are kicking churches out of the Convention for hiring women pastors, yet turning a blind eye to this kind of heresy? Oh yes- its the money stupid. Lord, forgive us!

Scripture to the left, Scripture to the right, Old Testament on one side, New Testament on the other. No one seems to agree so perhaps we can agree with the words of James (4:11-12): Brothers and sisters, do not slander one another. Anyone who speaks against a brother or sister or judges them speaks against the law and judges it. When you judge the law, you are not keeping it, but sitting in judgment on it. There is only one Lawgiver and Judge, the one who is able to save and destroy. But you—who are you to judge your neighbor?

Anon Nov 4 10:14PM, Please note who the book of James is written: vs 1. "James a servant of God and of the Lord Jesus Christ; to the twelve tribes which are scattered abroad, greeting".

You can't take a book written to the Jews and transfer it to the Church. Stick with the Pauline Epistles. There is a totally different pattern for the Church regarding Judging including our future of even judging angels. We are fortunate to have people in some churches that can deal with dishonestly, but more importantly courts and juries that take a role in dealing with judging people including your neighbors!!!

Scripture to the left, Scripture to the right, Old Testament on one side, New Testament on the other. No one seems to agree so perhaps we can agree with the words of James (4:11-12): Brothers and sisters, do not slander one another. Anyone who speaks against a brother or sister or judges them speaks against the law and judges it. When you judge the law, you are not keeping it, but sitting in judgment on it. There is only one Lawgiver and Judge, the one who is able to save and destroy. But you—who are you to judge your neighbor?

November 4, 2010 10:14 PM

First of all, read that in the entire context.

Secondly, do you really believe that James is encouraging them to "keep the OT law"?

If "judging" the OT law is a sin then Paul is guilty! He even told the Galatians who were insisting on circumcism to be a Christian that they go all the way and "emasculate" themselves. There are plenty more examples of Paul judging the law.

Are you familiar with the Jerusalem Council in Acts?

You are a perfect example of why prooftexting is so dangerous. And why the pew sitters need to get busy studying the whole so they will stop being so fooled.

"Melchizedek received Abraham’s tithe 400 years before Moses and the law. The Hebrew writer shows that Melchizedek is a prefigure of Christ, possibly a Christophony. We can conclude that just as Abraham gave a tithe to Melchizedek we give a tithe to Christ who is declared to be living."

Abraham tithed once to Melchizedek out of the spoils of war. Is that the model you are endorsing? Yet again you show no ability to interpret within context.

"In Matthew 23:23 - Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You give a tenth of your spices—mint, dill and cummin. But you have neglected the more important matters of the law—justice, mercy and faithfulness. You should have practiced the latter, without neglecting the former."

"These are the very words of God, they are eternal. He specifically states, do not neglect the tithe."

Do we see a pattern forming here? Same problem generic Ben. Context. Who is he talking to? If you are a hypocritical OT priest it applies to you. If you are a NT Christian it does not. 2 Corinthians 9: 7 is the NT model for giving. Unless you believe that the Bible contradicts itself. And by the way, Jesus was condemning the priests for following the letter of the law and ignoring the intent. That's exactly what people who want to stick to OT law and ignore grace are doing.

"If you say this doesn’t count for we in the NC then you are saying that Jesus is nothing more than a Jewish prophet or teacher of the law."

What this is saying is that you do not understand how to interpret scripture in context. You have to take into account the audience, culture, genre, and then you have to make sure that it harmonizes with the rest of scripture. It's called hermeneutics. Not understanding these principles will lead you into all kinds of false beliefs. Christian leaders have been practicing these interpretation methods for thousands of years. Please take advantage of their work.

Taking a passage and translating it in a wooden literal sense will lead you into some of the same mistakes that the cults make. The Mormans believe that God (the father) is a man because they do not understand how to interpret scripture in context.

You believe the OT tithe (there are actually 3 but lets ignore that inconsistency for now) is for today for the exact same reason.

"1 Corinthians 9:13-14 - Don't you know that those who work in the temple get their food from the temple, and those who serve at the altar share in what is offered on the altar? In the same way, the Lord has commanded that those who preach the gospel should receive their living from the gospel."

What has this got to do with the tithe? Where is 10% mentioned? Where is money mentioned? Where is the building fund mentioned? Where is today's temple? Choosing this verse shows how desperate you are to try to find a NT verse to support your position. Keep looking. This ain't it.

"Anyone who receives instruction in the word must share all good things with his instructor."

Another desperate attempt to find a proof text in the NT for OT tithing. Again where is 10% mentioned? Where is money mentioned?

I have shared instruction with you Ben. Does that mean that you owe me 10% of your income?

If I interpret this verse the same way that you do, it means that you do.

"And you and the Levites and the aliens among you shall rejoice in all the good things the LORD your God has given to you and your household. When you have finished setting aside a tenth of all your produce in the third year, the year of the tithe, you shall give it to the Levite, the alien, the fatherless and the widow, so that they may eat in your towns and be satisfied. (Deut 26:11-12)"

I almost died laughing when I read this verse. This is the very verse that you have been denying in your other posts. This one talks about one of the three tithes in the OT that you have called "smoke and mirrors" before. By using this verse as evidence you have unwittingly defeated your own argument.

Well we are moving in the right direction. You have now sighted the 10% given to the Levitical priests and the 10% every 3rd year for the poor. One more to go and you will be accurate in your OT beliefs.

By the way, did you notice it was produce that they tithe in this verse - not money. Is that what you are suggesting that we should give to the church since God's word is unchanging.

The verse also states that it should go to the Levites and the poor. Is that where your tithe goes? (hint: your pastor is not a Levitical priest). Levitical priests were not allowed to own anything.

This is really really sad Ben. It is obvious that you haven't studied scripture for answers on this question but instead are desperately seeking proof texts taken out of context in order to support what your preacher told you. That's fine if you want to live in darkness, but if you want truth you have to let go of tradition and hold to the Bible (translated in context).

"Do we see a pattern forming here? Same problem generic Ben. Context. Who is he talking to? If you are a hypocritical OT priest it applies to you."

He is also missing the larger point that they were not tithing money but first fruits and being very legalistic about it even tithing 10% of their herb gardens! Jesus was telling them that doing this meant nothing when they did not practice Mercy or Justice.

Ben or whomever, is just spurting out verses to see where they splatter. He has no basic understanding.

I would think most folks would like to emulate Abraham and Mel. it would be a ONE TIME 10% of the LOOT from WINNING a war.

It is incredible the folks that try to pass this one off. Ken Hemphill comes to mind. They are so obvious. It is all about money.

Of course the SBC CREATED a 6figure job for him when he was ousted from SWBTS. Another reason NOT to give them any more money. Give it to a needy single mom in your congregation. or a family that it is out of work. Do it anonymously, in the Name of Jesus and forget these scripture twisting charlatans.

Take your bible, rip out the outdated, of no use OT and burn it. ___________________________________

Are you a Jew? You rip it out of yours or start following the law. Watch out for the animal cruelty laws when you start making those animal sacrifices for forgiveness of sin. Or does God take cash now (given to the local preacher of course) instead?

Ben - please notice the word "you" and who it refers to in the passage you posted:

"Woe to YOU, teachers of the law and Pharisees, YOU hypocrites! You give a tenth of your spices—mint, dill and cummin. But YOU have neglected the more important matters of the law—justice, mercy and faithfulness. YOU should have practiced the latter, without neglecting the former.

What, pray tell...does this have to do with any of us? It sounds like he is talking to hypocritical pharisees to me.

And where, oh where, does the NT, or OT, say a Christian is to give 10% of their wages to a local church budget? Simple question. Please answer it.

When I read 2 Corinthians 9:7, I see a passage speaking of supporting the poor, not the church. This seems clear to be saying this is to be done above and beyond the support for the church, not in place of.

Melchizedek received Abraham’s tithe 400 years before Moses and the law.___________________________________Ben - Abraham's tithe was not on his wages. God gave him victory in war and he gave a 10th of the spoils back. Kind of like me saying if I hit the lottery Ben, I will give you a 10th. Has nothing to do with tithing.

And yes, it was BEFORE the law because it was taken from, derived from, Pagan practices years before. But you already knew that didn't you, Ben.

"Then Paul speaks of the giving to support the church so that those who preach the gospel should receive their living from the gospel."

More twisting. Since EVERYONE in the Body was part of the worship in some spiritual capacity whether teaching or encouraging, etc. Not just one guy. Most "preaching" took place OUTSIDE the meeting of the "called out ones"

You have misunderstood a function of "going out" to declare the Gospel which required travel and church planting and tried to map it to the Body of Christ in perpatuity. Very wrong. "Double Honor" is NOT a wage. But respect.

We do not see "pastors or elders" receiving a "LIVING" from the Body of Christ.

Read the Bible. Not history. History gets a lot wrong when it came to the things of Christ. Man always wants to elevate himself.

Keep holding on to the money that God has allowed you to have. As long as you think it belongs to you, tithing will be something you will shun. This blog is sickening. Tom is sick! Katie is absurd! Anons are not worth responding to, as they are so insecure in their stupid arguments that they are afraid to put their name next to it. God proves his graciousness by continuing to bless people although they feel they have the "authority" to tell God what they will return to His work and what they will keep to continue living their lifestyle. And don't give me that "...we're in tough times financially..." psycobabble. You obviously have enough money to have a computer and pay for internet, so don't give me that "crap" about barely having enough money to buy food or pay for a mortgage. If those things are true for you, then you are a complete idiot for choosing a computer and internet over food and shelter! This garbage hinders the growth of the Kingdom, and for that, I get angry. Most of the people on this site would view things differently if they had a "real" relationship with Christ, and not one of convience.

"Keep holding on to the money that God has allowed you to have. As long as you think it belongs to you, tithing will be something you will shun. This blog is sickening. Tom is sick! Katie is absurd! Anons are not worth responding to, as they are so insecure in their stupid arguments that they are afraid to put their name next to it. God proves his graciousness by continuing to bless people although they feel they have the "authority" to tell God what they will return to His work and what they will keep to continue living their lifestyle. And don't give me that "...we're in tough times financially..." psycobabble. You obviously have enough money to have a computer and pay for internet, so don't give me that "crap" about barely having enough money to buy food or pay for a mortgage. If those things are true for you, then you are a complete idiot for choosing a computer and internet over food and shelter! This garbage hinders the growth of the Kingdom, and for that, I get angry. Most of the people on this site would view things differently if they had a "real" relationship with Christ, and not one of convience."

Not "tithing" does not mean one does not give New Covenant style. of course, that kind of giving might not benefit the traditional celebrity pastor. but it is what is taught in the NC.

Giving under grace far exceeds the 10% law standard. Unfortunately, many like yourself feel that because we are Gentiles and are not bound by Jewish law, we can give based on "you". This way of thinking is why most people only give 2-4%. Not much worship in returning to God 2-4% and keeping 96-98%. This idiocy of "...I'm not going to pay for the preacher to be rich..." crap is really old. Most preachers are below average when it comes to salaries. BTW, you don't pay the pastor, God does. He just uses the church to do it. If you don't like it, that is your problem. Pastor's do not depend on disgruntled troublemakers like you and Tom to be taken care of. God does just fine without you. Unfortunately, you will not do fine without Him.

I am part of the percentage that tithes faithfully AND have it come automatically twice a month from my account. I am a higher educated profesioinal who has been a Christian for almost 20 years. I feel sorry for all of you that waste your time sharing your negativity. You may also find it interseting, that even with the bad press and convicting sermons that thousands and thousands still show up every weekend to Fellowship Church. It is an amazing house of worship and Pastor Ed Young is an amazing man of God who shares the WORD.

If a thousand (or ten thousand people) say and do a stupid thing, it's still a stupid thing. I love the irony of "hey don't buy YOURSELF a bass fishing boat, give the money to the CHURCH so your pastor can buy a bass fishing boat."Of course Ed will always say that what he gets (i.e. the jet) doesn't come from the tithes, but we all know that he takes the intellectual property of what is produced for the church and runs it through shell companies to sell media which creates an "independent" revenue stream for him and his attorney.

Ed Young is just a business savvy person. The problem is that the gospel isn't built for that. God can get His own without Ed. I don't think Ed would agree though.

"What if I learned that 80% of you are crack-smokers...? Then I'd preach on the dangers of drug abuse—drug addiction."Well, duh, he has no choice but to! Why would he allow any dirty drug dealer to get what could be his money—and then be livin' larger than him? His congregational cash cows are too valuable.

It's okay if you disagree with the tithe but just remember this. Never in the New Testament does grace do less than the law. Never. So if you are opposed to the law of 10% tithing, just make sure you are living under grace which will always cause you to go further than the law. I've never known someone who advocates for grace giving that actually gives more than the tithe. You can't have it both ways. Mark Moore

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We're small, insignificant, and harmless. But we have a loud, piercing bark that seems to annoy those in mega churches the most. Not Kool-Aid drinkers, only fresh, filtered water, please; with Grape or Cherry flavoring from Walmart. "Let him alone; God hath bidden him to speak:"