EVENTS

Episode CCLXVI: The Pharyngula bump?

Recently, that goofy guru Deepak Chopra thanked me on Twitter for helping his book, whatever it was, become a NYT bestseller. It would be nice to imagine that I have some fraction of the power of Colbert or Oprah, but I think he was indulging in some wishful thinking. So what else is new?

Anyway, just because I can, here’s a short video of a young woman asking Chopra a straightforward question…which he is unable to answer. His mouth moves, his lips flap, his tongue wiggles, but no sense comes out. Again…so what else is new?

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in which the majority of the Court held that a person convicted of a crime had no constitutional cright, after conviction, to have the DNA evidence against him independently re-tested (even at his own expense).

My ignorance may be shining through but, why would that even be a case? How does having a separate lab retest evidence in anyway undermine the justice system?

Now I don’t know if those 3,300 count are included among the 23,649, I’d say so, because you can stay registered with your home town registry (a Continental notion I know, but Europeans usually register at their place of residence).

I think my guess is correct. The Liechtensteiners abroad are not counted amongst the eligible voters. The law also says that in order to participate in elections, a Liechtensteiner must have lived in Liechtenstein for at least a month prior. So you couldn’t just return home to cast ballots (which would work because most Liechtensteiners abroad live in Switzerland, Austria and Germany).

According to news sources, I found the following figures for the 2003 referendum:

16,932 citizens eligible
87.7% of those eligible voted

from those 14,633

64% voted for the Prince’s bill and 83% voted against a bill which would have given the Landtag more powers.

I also note that there is a contradiction here, but I can’t resolve as I’m not an expert in Liechtenstein law, so I don’t know if you could stay registered in order to vote, or whether there are requirements that you have to maintain a presence in Liechtenstein so you can stay registered.

Probably at some point, most European states would make you de-register too.

My ignorance may be shining through but, why would that even be a case? How does having a separate lab retest evidence in anyway undermine the justice system?

Osborne was convicted of a sexual assault in state court in Alaska. He claimed it was a case of mistaken identity. During the trial process, a condom found at the crime scene was tested for DNA using a relatively inexact method of DNA testing called “DQ Alpha” testing, which, according to the facts in evidence, can only narrow the perpetrator down to about 5 percent of the population.* At trial, his defense attorney failed to seek the more precise form of DNA testing (known as “restriction-fragment-length-polymorphism” testing, or RFLP), and he was convicted.

(*I can’t confirm this claim myself, since I have no expertise in forensic science, but these are the facts that appear in the judgment.)

Later, on appeal, he wanted to have the DNA retested, using either RFLP testing or a more effective method, “short-repeat testing” or STR, which had since become available. After the state appellate courts refused to allow him to access the DNA evidence, he brought proceedings in the federal courts, claiming that he had a constitutional right under the Due Process Clause to have the evidence re-tested. He won in the District Court and the Court of Appeals, but the Supreme Court reversed the judgment. Chief Justice Roberts, writing the majority opinion (with which Scalia joined), held:

A criminal defendant proved guilty after a fair trial does not have the same liberty interests as a free man. At trial, the defendant is presumed innocent and may demand that the government prove its case beyond reasonable doubt. But “[o]nce a defendant has been afforded a fair trial and convicted of the offense for which he was charged, the presumption of innocence disappears.”…

The State accordingly has more flexibility in deciding what procedures are needed in the context of postconviction relief… Osborne’s right to due process is not parallel to a trial right, but rather must be analyzed in light of the fact that he has already been found guilty at a fair trial, and has only a limited interest in postconviction relief.

Yes… I think perhaps I misunderstood what you were originally arguing; I don’t think we’re really in disagreement. Of course I don’t think it’s ever right to hold people collectively accountable for the acts of other inhabitants of an arbitrarily-defined polity; but obviously you are absolutely right that people should be considered accountable for their own actions or inactions, including their failure to actively oppose a bad law. I’m not personally responsible for the fact that the British government is detaining immigrants in inhumane conditions and deporting them by force to very nasty places, for instance; but it would be fair to criticize me if I were not speaking out against it. So it’s fair to say that citizens of Liechtenstein have a moral responsibility to actively oppose the abortion ban, for instance.

So in short, once we find you guilty, we get to decide if we’ve made a mistake or not?

Yep. Basically. And given the number of people who have been convicted and imprisoned based on inaccurate eyewitness testimony, and later exonerated by DNA evidence, it’s a very worrying holding. (The jury trial process is remarkably unscientific and relies very heavily on unreliable eyewitness evidence, and even trials which meet all the formal requirements of due process are still prone to convicting innocent people.)

Hmmm, I’m experimenting a bit with the fail-fudge. So far, the second batch with chocolate failed, too, but the lavender-Fleur de Sel is really intense, although a bit soft.
At the moment I’m trying something a bit more caramelish and with christmas spices.

The State accordingly has more flexibility in deciding what procedures are needed in the context of postconviction relief… Osborne’s right to due process is not parallel to a trial right, but rather must be analyzed in light of the fact that he has already been found guilty at a fair trial, and has only a limited interest in postconviction relief.

That last clause just makes my head hurt. Isn’t this saying Osborne has a limited interest? How? What? The state can’t determine a person’s own interests. The only exception I can think of is if one is mentally incapable of making such a determination for oneself, and in that context it wouldn’t be to deny them their rights but to secure them.

Of course I don’t think it’s ever right to hold people collectively accountable for the acts of other inhabitants […] I’m not personally responsible for the fact that the British government […]

Don’t you think the same rule applies to a government as it does to a nation-state? One could just as well claim not everyone in the government is responsible for a government’s actions, that governments ought not be personified either*, but it looks you’ve done that more than a few times, rather than referring to some individuals working in it. I don’t think it’s really a problem when speaking casually, but since to me this looks exactly like your complaint, I figured I’d mention it because I’m often surprised by which particular ways you disagree with me. ;)

*I will not mention the “M” word, for fear of what that may cause, but please don’t take this as a reference to it.

Don’t you think the same rule applies to a government as it does to a nation-state? One could just as well claim not everyone in the government is responsible for a government’s actions, that governments ought not be personified either*, but it looks you’ve done that more than a few times, rather than referring to some individuals working in it. I don’t think it’s really a problem when speaking casually, but since to me this looks exactly like your complaint, I figured I’d mention it because I’m often surprised by which particular ways you disagree with me. ;)

Hmmm. I think there’s some truth there, but it’s still a slightly different situation. (And yes, I’m sometimes lazy in talking of “the state” or “the government” as though it were a single body with a single guiding will, rather than – as most modern states are – an overlapping network of different bureaucracies.)

In the case of governments, I’d say whether a person should be considered to be responsible for the actions of the government should depend on hir rank, position, and extent of personal involvement with the actions we’re complaining about. To take an obvious example, a desk clerk in the Department of Veterans’ Affairs or a ranger in the US Forest Service is not personally morally responsible for the torture of detainees at Guantánamo; the director of the CIA is, even if he was acting on direct orders. But if one is a government official and one is told to do something that violates one’s conscience, I’m comfortable saying that one has, in general, a moral obligation to resign rather than do it.

(Military personnel are in a special position here because members of the armed forces can’t just resign at will. Even so, it’s well-established in international humanitarian law that a soldier should refuse to commit a war crime if ordered to do so, and that xe has a defence if subsequently court-martialled for refusing orders. Whether a soldier should refuse an order that is immoral but not illegal, and risk being executed or imprisoned for mutiny as a result, I’m less willing to offer an opinion on; I’d like to think that I’d have the courage to do so, but of course I’ve never been in that situation. But I admire Bradley Manning very much.)

Of course, I should add that my analysis is forward-looking rather than backward-looking. I’m talking about what one should do when one is in such a position. I’m not necessarily saying that people who are complicit in such acts should be held responsible and punished after the fact; since, as you know, I don’t buy into the idea of retributive justice, and I don’t think punishment should always be assumed to be the right response to wrongdoing. (Which is not to say that I don’t think punishment is ever an appropriate response; I wouldn’t make such a sweeping claim, by any means. But it depends on the parameters of the situation.)

Military personnel are in a special position here because members of the armed forces can’t just resign at will.

Well, they can, but there are dire consequences for doing so. This is just one of many reasons not to join the military. Most of them involve killing people. I’m not at all inclined to put military personal in a special category in regard to ethics. Inter arma enim silent leges.

Of course, I should add that my analysis is forward-looking rather than backward-looking.

I know this is just a metaphor, but it always bothers me*. We can’t actually see the future, just the past. We analyze the past and use it to make decisions.

*I mean it always has. Whether it always will, I couldn’t say.

I’m talking about what one should do when one is in such a position. I’m not necessarily saying that people who are complicit in such acts should be held responsible and punished after the fact; since, as you know, I don’t buy into the idea of retributive justice, and I don’t think punishment should always be assumed to be the right response to wrongdoing. (Which is not to say that I don’t think punishment is ever an appropriate response; I wouldn’t make such a sweeping claim, by any means. But it depends on the parameters of the situation.)

I agree, but I think sometimes you’re a bit too keen on labeling something as “retributive punishment” when it doesn’t seem so obvious to me. (I wish I could remember a specific instance where I disagreed with your assessment, but I’m just going to have leave it at that for now.) As a general example, one might think of imprisonment as a kind of punishment in some cases, while another thinks of it as protecting society. I don’t think it really matters how people think about it if they’re doing the right thing, but the point is that it’s not clear where the boundary is, so we have to be careful that we’re not arguing against the only effective option available in a particular situation.

I know this is just a metaphor, but it always bothers me*. We can’t actually see the future, just the past. We analyze the past and use it to make decisions.

*I mean it always has. Whether it always will, I couldn’t say.

This isn’t quite what I meant. What I meant is that my analysis is intended to be used for making decisions in the present about how we should resolve dilemmas now; it’s not intended to be used for looking back and condemning everyone who’s been responsible for perpetrating bad acts in the past. We could engage in the latter pastime all day – condemning everyone from Paul Tibbetts to Harry Truman to Henry Kissinger to Donald Rumsfeld to Leon Panetta for their part in perpetrating various atrocities, as though we were judges at the Hague – and it won’t accomplish anything. I’m not interested in “responsibility” in the sense of “finding someone to blame”. (Not that I haven’t sometimes judged and condemned bad politicians in my mind, or labelled them “monsters” and suchlike – I have – but the fact that I’ve done so doesn’t imply that I can justify it as a rational or useful endeavour.)

Of course you’re right, though, that we have to analyze the past in order to make decisions in the present. And I’m not meaning to suggest that an analysis of the moral dynamics of past situations is useless. Rather, I was just concerned because I found myself talking about “moral responsibility” a great deal in the preceding post, and I wanted to reassure people that I do not mean that I buy into the mindset of “we have to hold someone responsible and punish them”. (That would be rather obviously inconsistent with my own past statements on the subject of free will, moral agency and punishment.)

He has a history of referring to Table Talks until someone calls him on it. He will back away until the next time and do it all over again. Because, as consciousness razor points out in the latest thread about Hitler, Nazism was an primarily a secular movement. So Darwin must remain in the discussion.

As an other person pointed out, there is a distinct David Marshall feel to him.

Walton:
I understand what you meant, and in a sense I agree what you’re talking about is “forward-looking” rather than “backward.” The metaphor just bothers me. That’s all I was trying to say, but I’ve been very tired and scatterbrained lately, so I probably didn’t make that as clear as it should’ve been.

I’m not interested in “responsibility” in the sense of “finding someone to blame”.

That’s not what responsibility means anyway.

Rather, I was just concerned because I found myself talking about “moral responsibility” a great deal in the preceding post, and I wanted to reassure people that I do not mean that I buy into the mindset of “we have to hold someone responsible and punish them”. (That would be rather obviously inconsistent with my own past statements on the subject of free will, moral agency and punishment.)

Responsibility doesn’t entail all of that. It just means, quite literally, the ability to respond, so unless you do start talking about blame and punishment, I don’t think many people will confuse them. Also, none of that stuff about determinism enters into the question of whether or not a certain act is “punishment.”

He has a history of referring to Table Talks until someone calls him on it. He will back away until the next time and do it all over again. Because, as consciousness razor points out in the latest thread about Hitler, Nazism was an primarily a secular movement. So Darwin must remain in the discussion.

As an other person pointed out, there is a distinct David Marshall feel to him.

I see. I did notice a certain obtuseness re the Social Darwinism issue.

Caine, actually, I was too amused by the Rookie to want the banhammer brought down on him. But his mistake was to want to talk to the insane Canadian when he did his shit fingerpainting when PZ was gone for a weekend and had to clean up hundreds of comments.

Well, today with Alfie was interesting. He’s not getting much better, so it will be back to the vet on Monday. When I got him up today, his poor little eyes were stuck together, so I took him in the bathroom to clean up. He had a fair amount of hair stuck together from peeing too, so I went to clean up there and noticed his monumental* testicles were missing. I now have him on a heating pad, hoping they’ll descend again.

*Anyone who has ever had a male rat can tell you that their testicles are *enormous*.

The last witch trial in Western Germany was 1738 in Gerresheim, today a district of Düsseldorf. Two women, Helena Curtens, 16, and Agnes Olmans, 47, were burned at the stake. The City Council was discussing the issue of rehabilitating the two women, supported by the Social Democratic (SPD) and Green Parties.

The city councillor in charge of cultural affairs, from the conservative Christian Democratic Union (CDU) said that City Hall would not be able to grant that request, as it had been a lawful verdict at the time. He had sought the expertise of a theologian and proclaimed that it was beyond doubt that the two women were “engaged in superstitious acts”.

Why has Freethoughtblogs now started sending me email notifications every time someone posts on the Endless Thread? And how can I stop this?

Under the ‘Leave a Reply’ box is a checkbox with “Notify me of followup comments via e-mail. You can also subscribe without commenting.” I suspect that if you uncheck the box it may stop filling your inbox.

BTW, Wife (who grew up in Lexington) wants to know if Ruggles (a British-style pizza restaurant) is still in Harvard Square?

Laughing Coyote, pet stores have (or used to have) tubes of fine sandpaper that you could slip onto birds’ perches to keep their claws trimmed. I’m sure you could improvise with your own sandpaper and a bit of glue.

However, people do hold birds for measuring and tagging, so maybe you could just hold him and trim the claws or get a friend to do so. It sounds like a bit of a three-handed operation. Or you could wrap him in a handkerchief with just the feet sticking out, for the required 30 seconds or so.

As long as he doesn’t post those creepy fuckin’ analogies, I don’t think he should get banned. I actually do think we were getting to him before. He kinda reminds me of another young naive English commenter, except for being far, far, far more out there.

In France, there is no gay marriage (though teh gheyz can has Marriage Lite, called PACS, which is open to everyone and most common among young hetero couples). In comes a woman in the body of a man, marries a woman, has 3 children in 15 years with her, and then transitions. What happens to the marriage??? Attorney General sez it stays. Lawyer says gay marriage is just around the corner. Harold Camping may only have been off by two months this time. :-) News feature in German citing AFP (Agence France Presse).

BTW, Wife (who grew up in Lexington) wants to know if Ruggles (a British-style pizza restaurant) is still in Harvard Square?

Eh… not to my knowledge, but I haven’t explored all the side streets around there. (There is, however, a good pizza place called Oggi’s in the Holyoke Center, by the university health clinic. And there’s also an excellent vegetarian-fast-food place to which I was introduced a few weeks ago by MrFire.)

How the hell do you get yourself out of a real slump. Weeks go by like days. Every evening I get off and I think I’ll do something but I don’t. I veg around (like the people I used to scoff at who worked all day and then just watched TV and waited around to die) and then go to sleep.

It’s pathetic and worthless. I hate it.

How the fuck do you stop it though? It seems like I just come home and sleep then work then sleep then work then…

and I don’t even get paid enough for such a worthless and meaningless existence. It’s utter shit. But when I come home, nothing seems to happen. I just *don’t* fucking do anything I mean to anymore.

Part of it is not having enough alone time, I know that. I have almost none anymore, and it’s not totally in my power right now to fix that.

But even when I do, I’m still just not using it. What the fuck can one do?

This book right here, every Bible says, in Proverbs 1:7, ‘The fear of the Lord is the beginning of knowledge.’ Now I don’t know why today we think, ‘oh I’m going to know more about the Lord if I fear God,’ we’ve made the fear of the Lord the beginning of spiritual knowledge. He didn’t say that, He said the fear of the Lord’s the beginning of knowledge. If you want education you better include the fear of God, if you want to be a good scientist you better include the fear of God, if you want to be a good musician—1962, ’63, the U.S. Supreme Court in three decisions said no more fear of God in education, we want education to be secular. All right, that’s a theological issue. How’s that working out? In 1962, ’63, America was number one in the world in literacy, we are now number sixty-five in the world in literacy. We don’t have the fear of the Lord, because guess what, we don’t have knowledge, it goes down.

Remember Eugene Delgaudio? The great fighter of traditional values? The one who got your e-mail addresses (Be them real and fake.) for his fraudulent petition? If anything, he is becoming more unhinged.

Maybe I should set a clear goal, like “One creative project a day start-to-finish (or else it will never get done” for one month.

I can’t speak for anyone but myself, but on my latest piece, I lost all motivation some time ago. That’s why I started the blog to document daily work. That motivation worked – even when I don’t feel like working on it, I have to have something to photograph and post.

Caine, Fleur du Mal@578, Damn that’s rough. I’m so sorry. I’ve been lurking and reading TET trying to keep up and from the updates it sounded like he was getting better. I hope Chas can calm down. Best to y’all.

Algernon@575, Just my $.02 of course but if it helps to motivate and energize you then go ahead, but don’t get stuck on the “start to finish” part. Sometimes a creative project can take more time to gel. Maybe something like Caine’s approach (@577) with documenting progress every day. Kind of an incremental thing.
Keep trying, don’t ever give up. The best is yet to be!

Caine: Oh, dear. We had two generations of pet rats when I was a ‘tween and my brothers were still in elementary school. They were pretty nice pets, being quite a bit smarter than the smaller (and allegedly cuter) gnawing critters. Sorry to hear that Alfie didn’t make it. Even under the best of circumstances, rat life expectancy isn’t very long, so it’s hard to see one go ahead of his time. We lost one of our first pair at a very young age (maybe 4 months) and our friends never really got why we were so sad about it. Hug.

Oh Caine :( I’m so sorry. *hugs, chocolate, swill, hugblankets, the works* Little guy had a great life, and great friends, and lots of love, and that’s the most any of us can ever ask for. But I’m sorry.

I’m so sorry about Alfie. I’m sure from all your stories that he was well loved. Losing our furry friends is always sad, most especially when it comes too soon. *hugs/chocolate/tea/snuggly soft blanket for you and Chas*

Oh, how sad. I was just popping in to say good night, and now I learn that Alfie is no more? What a sad day. Well, he was a well-loved rat. And now he is a well-mourned rat.

Here’s to Afie.

*pours one out for Alfie*

May all beings know such love.

Gnight all. Wish me luck at my job interview tomorrowstrike> in eight hours. It’s a low-paid food service job, but it’s at the coop so if I get it I’ll get a major discount on all kinds of delectable organic produce and food products. And it’s temporary.

It’s been hard really taking good care of myself lately. Low motivation, just want to stay in bed all the time, play games, watch movies. It’s hard even just admitting that this is a problem for me. Thanks for being here.

It’s a low-paid food service job, but it’s at the coop so if I get it I’ll get a major discount on all kinds of delectable organic produce and food products. And it’s temporary.

It’s been hard really taking good care of myself lately. Low motivation, just want to stay in bed all the time, play games, watch movies. It’s hard even just admitting that this is a problem for me. Thanks for being here.

Sally Strange
Fingers are crossed. You had an exceptiona amount of bad luck lately and I hope this will change now.
I “need” creativity. When I’m not doing much in that department, even though there are projects enough, it shows that I’m doing badly.
But I know what you mean, I need projects that show progress, too.
What have you thought about?

pelamun
Well, I’m glad the CDU remains strong. What would happen to us if we admitted that there were times in our history when law was shitty and unjust, especially if it was a mixture of holy and state law.
Keep showing people that you give shit about innocent women.
Kind of reminds me of the “no DNA testing after you’ve been convicted” verdict Walton cited.

I honestly don’t know the exact specifics, she started having seizures at age 14 or so, and her mother signed her up for disability. After she moved out and got a job, they reduced and finally removed her disability and Medicaid. Her Disability came up for review, and they decided to drop her entirely. Not sure why.

Her epilepsy has recently gotten worse, and she’s having ‘cluster seizures’, where she has a dozen or more seizures in a 30 minute to 1 hour period.

He’s been here a long time, as you know. I am a bit torn over that one, we’ve had so many fights, I don’t even remember, but every now and then he does say something of value, or something that I wasn’t aware of. So yeah, he’s not the worst I guess….

The Walton needs to sleep. He has been up all night writing a paper and it is now half-past two in the morning, and he is tired enough to do something so pretentious as to write about himself consistently in the third person. Also, his brain hurts.

Ah thanks pelamum, btw, my dad sent me the same link you posted above.
As to bluharmony, remind me, isn’t that the one who put all this private info about herself onto the wiki in the first place ? I haven’t been following, sorry. Reading twitter now.

As to bluharmony, remind me, isn’t that the one who put all this private info about herself onto the wiki in the first place ?

Yes. After discovering the entry, she added all the personal, identifying info, then whined and moaned about it being taken down. She didn’t care about personal info, but she used it to get all the links to things she’d posted (and the criticism) disappeared.

She’s still going on about it being taken down, touting it all over as a major victory and a sign of how powerful she is, what with being a mighty lawyer and all.

Hm, those tweets are intriguing indeed. Brian Dunning, Kylie Sturgess, Metamagician (Blackford) ? Seems like blu has found herself some allies.
Btw, a blog Blackford linked to the other day turns out to have the Hoggler on his blogroll.
This is all very regrettable, and I have absolutely no clue how it all turned out to become some sick Lord of the Flies rerun.

Yes, that’s her. If you wish to see the original page in order to better assess her claims, shoot me an email, I have saved it on my computer.

I’m a bit worried that she will now talk people into believing that the page really had unsubstantiated claims about her. Ophelia Benson on twitter seemed to appear at least neutral about this claim of BH’s.

Hi everybody. I heard about this phenomenon where you can suppress the gag reflex by clinching your left thumb in your palm. I was wondering if anyone had heard of this, or could confirm this effect. If so, what is the mechanism behind this response.

I have a terribly severe gag reflex. I avoid going to the doctor when I think I have strep because the test for it is more traumatizing to me than suffering through the illness.

Is this a legitimate means to suppress gagging? I couldn’t find many scholarly articles on it.

Wow, if she actually went to check what floor Rebecca was on and isn’t just pulling that info out of her ass, that’s a seriously unhealthy obsession. Actually, even if she did make up the information, it’s still an unhealthy obsession.

I read through Laden’s post, thanks for the tip. And I think it was good of him to close comments. I reckon Matt Penfold wins one internet there :

Given she is a lawyer, it seems rather harsh on her clients to suggest she spends more time working.

In other news, love interest is hastily fleeing Bangkok as we speak, because in addition to the 50cm of water in her district already, major additional flood waters are currently only 15-20km away from the CBD. It’s going to get much worse before it gets better there.

People in the office are now looking at me strangely for laughing so hard.
I don’t know should I fear or hope the next thing you say is that she also checked all men in single rooms on the same or above Rebecca’s floor.

Goodness. What is this supposed to prove anyway ? That the elevator ride wasn’t long enough to propose Watson ? Jebus H Christ.

Oh dear.
Did she also think about checking what type of elevator they have?
Because, there are fast ones and slow ones.

I will further propose the following experiment:
If you’re in the mood and have an acceptable sparrings partner ready tonight, at about 10pm, ask them if they’d like coffee.
Report whether you end up in the kitchen or in the bedroom (or on the kitchentable, whatever fancies you).
Let’s take science and skepticism to a whole new level!

It’s along the lines of “a true skeptic questions the (feminist) dogma” or sth like that

It’s how they obsess over everything, make huge leaps in logic but call out every minut detail, misinterpret everything that’s said to them, preserve every slight ever done against, take screen shots of everything they write and how they refuse to beleive everyone isn’t out to get them while simultaneuasly arguing the world is finally waking up to the evils of their opressors. At this point they’ve become E-Gate Truthers.

pelamun
It’s the “unless you have peer reviewed evidence I’m not going to believe that you have had cornflakes for breakfast” stance.
They completely fail to realize that it wouldn’t matter shit if RW had dreamed the whole episode while falling asleep on the elevator.

That actually hurt to type. I’m one of those people who is prone to conspiracy thinking and the kind of crap you see come out denialist groups. My entire motivation behind adopting skepticism was because I recognized I was close to wearing a tin foil hat (no really. I had some pretty crazy thoughts running through my head in high school) and needed something to ground me. Skepticism seemed the way to go. It not only required you to consider the evidence but how you may be interpreting the evidence and how easily fallible you were in your conclusions. So seeing so many skeptics devolve into this crap sucks all the optimism right out of me.

Come on guys, be skeptical about your conclusions and your biases. Does this behavior seem reasonable given the claims made?

So seeing so many skeptics devolve into this crap sucks all the optimism right out of me.

It isn’t about skepticism. It’s about a lot of people being confronted with their own privilege and sexism. A lot of people who chose to get defensive and have kept upping the ante in order to protect their privilege and sexism. Skepticism is simply being used as an excuse.

julian
Any good tips how to get somebody to take the tinfoil hat off?
Mr. sometimes shows those tendencies.
You know, since famous person X died in a car crash, and car crashs are easy to arrange for, ergo X was murdered by the CIA/MI6/FBI/KGB…

Come on guys, be skeptical about your conclusions and your biases. Does this behavior seem reasonable given the claims made?

Caine, just read about Alfie (time zones) and wanted to say I’m sorry. I loved reading all your posts about living with the two of them – he must have been just about the best-loved and best-looked-after a rat can be.

Good luck with the job, Sally Strange (mmm for discounted Good Things!)

Algernon, that’s very hard to break (at least, I find it very hard). fwiw I think your idea is spot on, but maybe you could try starting with really small chunks of a goal? Just to begin with? So if you don’t manage to complete a whole project it doesn’t make you feel worse; it’s progress.

In breaking news, CHOGM has embraced changes to the succession on the British throne, allowing women to be considered as successors, starting with Charles and working downwards. Or something. Also, monarchs can now marry Catholics. As if that was a pressing issue.

I “need” creativity. When I’m not doing much in that department, even though there are projects enough, it shows that I’m doing badly.
But I know what you mean, I need projects that show progress, too.
What have you thought about?

Caine, just read about Alfie (time zones) and wanted to say I’m sorry. I loved reading all your posts about living with the two of them – he must have been just about the best-loved and best-looked-after a rat can be.

Thank you. :) Alfie was a terrific rat. He never was a cuddly sort and boggling was a rarity for him. He spent more time boggling this last two weeks than he did his whole life, which let me know our caring for him did matter and it was appreciated.

I haven’t been to the pharynguwiki page (don’t have the link), but I think given what bluharmony is saying about it now, it would be a good idea to note somewhere related to her name on it why her page was taken down. She’s claiming things that aren’t true, so there should be something in “print” on the site that documents that there was a page there and that it was taken down because the subject put personally identifying info on it but that the admins felt that to be a bad idea, or that it was taken down because the focus of the wiki changed to not emphasize trolls, or something like that.

Looks like the thread I linked has become the Slimepit’s version of TET, it’s still active even though it started in August. And further upthread, lo-behold what BH herself wrote there, addressing the Slimepit folks

And I consider all of you my friends, respect all of you, and welcome you to join me on Facebook if you already haven’t.

(lest I be accused of quote-mining: with two exceptions. Yeah, those two exceptions totally prove that she didn’t condone anything misogynist that was said over there)

So I tell myself: just do one stupid little chord progression. It can be a dumb two chord hook six bars long and repeated thirty times or a completely bullshit cliche sketch of 600 words; it doesn’t matter. It doesn’t have to turn into anything. Just do it, record it or save it somewhere, leave it there. Sure ya can, champ*. Yes, you’re in a funk and a slump and the days are a fucking treadmill. But just do this one stupid little thing, anyway. And then use whatever’s left of the precious six seconds you actually had to yourself for sleeping or staring irritably at bad news, if you must.

And next night it’s: now add something to it. It’s just sitting there, after all. Just one little thing. Trivial, crappy, stupid, useless, doesn’t matter. Just do it anyway. Don’t feel inspired? Fine, just edit yesterday’s, refine it, if that’s all you got.

Me, I keep at that, and before I know it, either I’m in the mood again because something caught my interest, or, okay, maybe I only every was a tiny bit and for a moment or two, I’m already done something anyway, and that, actually, is better than nothing, and at least gives you a little something to tell yourself the next time you feel like that: it doesn’t matter. Who gives a rat’s ass? Yeah, I’m down. It happens. So what. I can work around it.

I do sometimes think I’m a mite prone to depression. Not terribly or nothing, but yeah, a bit. And I’m not quite the only one saying it, and some of ’em should probably know. But I think I’ve just been at it so long, y’know, I function around it. I’ve done entire works people actually later told me they quite liked with only very limited bits of enthusiasm occurring at my end of the deal, in those tiny flashes, at best, through the whole thing.

What comes out of such efforts, oddly enough, can become something pretty cool, given long enough and enough effort. Or, okay, you’ll wind up burning them, to protect the innocent. Either way, it’s a bit of exercise, at least.

(/And yes, I know, I’m just full of advice this week.)

(*/For the record, in my actual inner monologue, I rarely use a phrase quite so irritatingly glib and likely to cause homicide as ‘sure ya can, champ’. But that is kinda the attitude.)

In breaking news, CHOGM has embraced changes to the succession on the British throne, allowing women to be considered as successors

At the moment, the succession to the British throne follows the rule of “male-preference primogeniture”. So the throne passes to the monarch’s eldest son; if the monarch has no sons, it passes to the monarch’s eldest daughter. Sons always inherit before daughters. (So, for instance, the Queen’s sons Prince Andrew and Prince Edward are higher in the line of succession than the Queen’s daughter Princess Anne, even though Anne is older.) A woman can inherit if she has no brothers, however, as was the case with the present Queen when her father George VI died.

The proposal is to change the rule of succession – as has already been done in Sweden, for instance – to equal primogeniture, so that the oldest child always inherits, irrespective of gender.

(Historically, the British system was actually very progressive for its time. Historically, most continental European monarchies used “Salic Law”, which meant that only men could inherit. Some, such as the Austrian monarchy, used “Semi-Salic Law”, in which a woman could inherit only if there were no remaining male heirs in any branch of the family.)

On scrapping the ban on future monarchs marrying Roman Catholics, Mr Cameron said: “Let me be clear, the monarch must be in communion with the Church of England because he or she is the head of that Church.

Technically, the monarch isn’t “the head” of the Church of England, but the “Supreme Governor” of the Church of England.

(And there’s no particular reason why the monarch’s religious role need continue, in any case. Though I don’t feel strongly about it either way.)

Since we’re on the topic of primogeniture/monarch and religion, let’s talk about Japan:

Primogeniture and female succession

There have been female Empresses (as sovereign I mean) in Japanese history, but that was 1,000 years ago and back then the real power was in the hands of a chancellor, who was effectively ruling instead of the regenbt, who was nominally governing for the Empress or the Emperor (and sometimes even abdicated Emperors were in the mix too) – yeah Japanese history has always been complex about the question who actually ruled.

But when the current crown prince’s wife couldn’t conceive, and after years of pressure*) finally gave birth to a girl, for a brief moment, it looked like conservative monarchists and feminists would join hands in Japan to change the law of successoin, but alas, the crown prince’s younger brother’s wife then gave birth to a son, and he willl take precedence.

*) here we can see how misogynist the institution of monarchy truly is: here we had a self-confident woman, a diplomat schooled in Oxford and Harvard and fluent in a couple of languages (I’m typing this from the road so I might misremember a thing or two), and then she marries the Crown Prince, and very shortly after that her spirit is totally crushed, by the pressure, the misogynist rituals (like walking three steps behind her husband), all these arch-conservative mandarins from the Imperial Household Agency

Monarchy and state religion:

yet another aspect monarchy violates modern democratic principles. But in Japan, the most important role of the monarch has always been the function of a high priest of Shintoism, since ancient times. As I’ve alluded above, for vast periods of time, the actual power was never in the hands of the Emperor, that was always just a symbolic idea (no wonder the dynasty has endured continuously, as the real rulers could always count on the Yamato clan, whoever came on top). In a way, the title Emperor is a misnomer.

And it’s a big violation of the separation of state and shrine (I guess that’d be the Japanese version), which is mandated by the Japanese constitution (though one dictated by the US), and it’s an embodiment of privilege. There are Japanese that don’t belong to Shintoism, after all..

*) here we can see how misogynist the institution of monarchy some monarchies truly is are:

FTFY.

The British monarchy was way ahead of its time when it came to gender equality. The Kingdom of England, and later that of Great Britain, had ruling Queens – Elizabeth I, Anne, Mary II, Victoria – in an era when women could not vote or hold positions of leadership in most European societies. The system of male-preference primogeniture is anachronistic now – and it should be changed, certainly – but in its historical context, it was exceptionally progressive.

(Number of women to succeed to the throne in Great Britain since 1789: 2.
Number of women to be elected President of the United States since 1789: 0.
Number of years that Britain has had a woman as head of state since 1789: 123. (1837-1901 and 1952-present.)
Number of years that the United States has had a woman as head of state since 1789: 0.)

And some monarchies have already changed the line of succession to adopt equal primogeniture: Sweden did so in 1980, for instance, and the current heiress apparent is a woman, Crown Princess Victoria. There is nothing inherently misogynistic about monarchy.

Haha, keep deluding yourself. That’s all I can say for now, as I’m in a car right now. Probably in the interest of anyone else here, I WON’T elaborate later, I’m sure people will agree without me having to spell it out.

I said that there is nothing inherently misogynistic about monarchy. I did not deny that many monarchies have been misogynistic; many monarchies have existed in highly sexist and patriarchal societies, because most societies have been highly sexist and patriarchal.

But this does not mean that the concept of monarchy is inherently misogynistic. A gender-equal monarchy is absolutely possible: and, indeed, such monarchies exist (in Sweden, for example).

In the US, no woman has ever been elected President, thanks to a long history of ingrained misogyny in the culture. Does this mean that the concept of a presidential republic is inherently misogynistic? Of course not. It is not the form of government that is misogynistic, but the culture surrounding it. And that’s what needs to be changed. Replacing hereditary succession with presidential elections, or vice versa, will not magically make a difference to gender equality.

Yup, I have to echo pelamun here. But only in the contemporary monarchies. In days of yore it was the High Priestess that swung the scepter. The king was a lowly sex toy. My, how humanity has sunk since the swing to patriarchy.

@ [Rachel Maddow]

OK, I think Rachel Maddow is flippin’ fantastic.

HOWEVER…. she really must learn how to pronounce the Koch brothers surname. It is not “Coke”. It is pronounced with the “Ko-” part as the front end of “cough”. The “-ch” part is pronounced as the “kh” in “Khartoum”. Yes it sounds like clearing snot from the roof of your mouth. Quite appropriate rather.

she really must learn how to pronounce the Koch brothers surname. It is not “Coke”. It is pronounced with the “Ko-” part as the front end of “cough”. The “-ch” part is pronounced as the “kh” in “Khartoum”. Yes it sounds like clearing snot from the roof of your mouth. Quite appropriate rather.

Is that really true? If so, the Wikipedia entry’s pronunciation needs to be fixed (unless I’m reading it wrong?), and a close family member I have who works at the company has been getting the name wrong for a decade or so now. Wouldn’t that be funny. I always had to say “No, not Coca-Cola, Koch as in the huge scary private company.” (Back before people had heard of the Brothers or the Industries.) A different pronunciation would make that much less difficult to clarify…

How can one argue that treating one group of people as being more important than another group is wrong when it is in respect of sexism and men being treated as being more important that women, but a good idea if the groups are a hereditary ruling family and their subjects ?

Vincent Tabak, the person who killed Jo Yates and who has been discussed here has just been found guilty of her murder. He has pleased guilty to manslaughter but the plea was rejected by the prosecution.

He has been given a life sentence and will have to serve at 20 years before he can be considered for parole.

I’m going to disagree with people here and say that’s technically true. While monarchy’s history is unquestionably misogynistic, you can theoretically set up a monarchy that is not. However, hereditary monarchy is inherently anti-egalitarian, anti-democratic and unfair. Which raises the question of why bother updating this medieval relic and not just scrap altogether?

Anyway, we’ve had the monarchy debate with Walton here many, many, many times before and it doesn’t look like either side is changing its mind. The last time I had it with Walton was in meatspace among sheep and wool. Later that night we put a crown on his head. For me, that’s great place to leave it.

Monarchy is inherently misogynist because the hereditary principle puts pressure on the woman, regardless of whether she is queen or the consort, to bear children. I mean you did read my story about the Japanese crown prince’s wife who had her spirit crushed also BECAUSE she couldn’t conceive. And of course SHE was the one who was blamed (though one time a German newspaper made a joke about HIM, titling a photo of him with “Tote Hose”, a slang term, lit. “dead pants” meaning “nothing going on”, it’s also the name of the OTHER great German punk rock band; of course the Japanese ambassador got all huffy and protested yaddayaddayadda – how dare you put the blame on the man).

Theophontes,

German immigrants to the US have been known to change the pronunciation of their names, sometimes even Anglicise them. Two World Wars will do that to you…

“…technically true. While monarchy’s history is unquestionably misogynistic, you can theoretically set up a monarchy that is not. … we put a crown on his head. For me, that’s great place to leave it.”

+1

Walton would do a better job of it than most, I suspect. But I’d much rather a pantomime crown on the head of a thoughtful and compassionate person than a real one on the head of someone so far removed from the trials of normal life that s/he wouldn’t recognise them if they bit hir on the arse.

Woah Safari! Much, much older. As Walton will confirm. Religions and monarchies ALWAYS reflect their underlying societies. There was a long time when the women where in the lead. It was only recently that teh menz tried taking over. There are still several fully functioning matriarchal societies out there. The old religions worshiped female gods. Yahwe is a pathetic johnny-come-lately.

can you give me examples with sources of real matriarchal societies? Because the only ones I can come up with are matrilineal or matrilocal ones, and everyone knows that these societies can still be full of patriarchal shit.

German immigrants to the US have been known to change the pronunciation of their names, sometimes even Anglicise them. Two World Wars will do that to you…

I realise there have been some changes to fit in. But I would find it kind funny if Rachel Maddow would start using the real ethnic Dutch (not German, as far as I know) pronunciation. Koh-KH. kekeke. Kinda funny.

can you give me examples with sources of real matriarchal societies?

Sadly matriarchal societies have been dying out for millenia. There are still several in China. Including true matriarchal societies. The Southwestern Yunnan province is full of them. (Though the largest minority, the Dai, are not full matriarchies, the Mosuo people are truly matriarchal.)

European societies where matriarchal up to a few thousand years ago. The Greeks even report of matriarchal tribes during the Golden Age. This menz shit is a pretty new idea.

I’d also like some examples. From what I’ve read, there are no unambiguous examples of (human) matriarchal societies.

The place where I did my fieldwork research (a remote place in SE Asia), some ethnic groups were patrilocal, some were matrilocal, but they were patriarchic all the same. Big factor contributing to this, their adopted religion, either Islam, or Catholicism, though I daresay that their traditions were partly patriarchal even before the advent of missionaries in the reason.

In 19th century Western scholarship, the hypothesis of matriarchy representing an early stage of human development—now mostly lost in prehistory, with the exception of some “primitive” societies—enjoyed popularity. The hypothesis survived into the 20th century and was notably advanced in the context of feminism and especially second wave feminism, but this hypothesis of matriarchy as having been an early stage of human development is mostly discredited today, most experts saying that it never existed.[10]

While the existence of numerous matrilineal or avuncular societies is undisputed, it has been recognized since the 1970s that there are no societies which are matriarchal in the strong sense that some societies are patriarchal. Joan Bamberger in her 1974 The Myth of Matriarchy argued that the historical record contains no reliable evidence of any society in which women dominated.

Mosuo are pretty damn matriarchal. The Dai are not so straightforward. Societies are traditionally run by women, but the men are still very important. (Unlike amongst the Musuo.) It is more a fairly distinct seperation of roles. The women take authority AND responsibility(and it is hard work). (Contrast this with the “wham, bam” rethuglicans and teh menz.)

In an offshoot of the Dai, the Honi, the woman are also very strong within society. They would make great pharangulites.

according to Hua Cai, the Mosuo are rather matrilineal than truly matriarchal.

A society without fathers or husbands: the Na of China.

(This is referenced on the Wiki article on the Mosuo. I just got me the book, so I’ll check it in more detail.)

But in the mean time, this quote from Wikipedia:

Mosuo families tend to trace their lineage through the female side of the family. Occasionally, in fact, they may not know who the father of a child is, which, although embarrassing, does not carry stigma to the same extent as in Western societies. An important historical fact often missed in studies of the Mosuo was that their social organization has traditionally been feudal, with a small nobility controlling a larger peasant population.[5] The Mosuo nobility practiced a “parallel line of descent” that encouraged cohabitation, usually within the nobility,[7] in which the father passed his social status to his sons, while the women passed their status to their daughters. Thus, if a Mosuo commoner female married a male serf, her daughter would be another commoner, while her son would have serf status.[5]
Hua (2001) has theorized that the matriarchal system of the Mosuo lower classes was enforced by the nobility to neutralize threats to their power.[5] Since leadership was inherited through the male family line, potential threats to leadership from the peasant class were eliminated by tracing the lineage of the latter through the female line. Thus, depicting Mosuo culture as an idealized “matriarchal” culture with more freedom than patriarchal societies and with special rights for women, are unfounded. In actuality, the Mosuo peasant class has historically been subjugated and “sometimes treated as little better than slaves.” [2]

Yup, the whole entitlement of the “nobility” in China is a huge factor in screwing up the ideal. I would treat the Pfft of All Knowledge with the same regard as they deserve for screwing up the pronunciation of “Koch”.

But I would be glad to hear from you if my views on the Mosuo have been corrupted by my own rosy coloured spectacles.

(For example with the Dai, they do not entertain non-Dai, “uninitiates” into ceremonies or lore. It is hard to gain a real picture of what the societies are about in terms of these “blind spots”. Also, they are constantly changing.

I have had he good fortune to travel a lot in these areas (not the Mosuo though) and to meet up with some very knowledgeable people in this regard. I still have very much to learn and probably will never get the whole picture.)

I don’t know if effort to get into these societies, staying there for years, even for a PhD. Hua seems have been trained in France (the book was originally titled Une société sans père ni mari: Les Na de Chine). I’ve made only good experiences with French anthropologists in my area ;)

The most knowledgeable person I have met (wrt the Dai) is Gao Lishi, who has written extensively on his experiences with the Dai. He is married to a Dai princess (there are quite a number – Walton take note).

You might be able to get hold of his: “A collection of Gao Lishi’s Research Works on the Dai”. (ISBN: 7-5367-3541-3). He is also very knowledgeable about water management and agriculture, which gives this a unique perspective.

I foolishly decided to debate the MRA over in the circumcision thread. Should have known better.
Among other things, I learned that white American middle-class women control 80% of the country’s wealth! Oh, and we’re living in a matriarchy.

I’ve been caught in a CLEAN ALL THE THINGS spiral for the past few days, which is never healthy. Stopped when my roommate asked me why the spice rack was alphabetized by chemical formula / binomial species name. *twitch*

I should also add that, whatever the hidden truths are about Musou society, they have a very real idealised existence within the Chinese consciousness. They are certainly perceived by most as being an inversion of the male oriented status quo. This alternative form of society might be more important as myth, than reality (as you suggest), but I am still for it.

(If I was to bet, I would call it a real matriarchal society. It is more likely to be as it appears.)

My experience in Yunnan has been very much in support of very (by Chinese standards) empowered women running the show. Women clients, women CEO’s, women managers… This is a very strong reason why Yunnan is my favourite part of China. I really think the whole world would be better off following this way of doing. (Actually I have a lot of other reasons to think this, but I don’t want to commandeer the Endless Thread completely.)

theophontes:
Ah, that makes sense now. You’re talking about the original Dutch. I thought you meant we were pronouncing it differently than they pronounce their own name, which I would agree would be factually incorrect (and embarrassing for the employee). I don’t see how using their own pronunciation is really wrong for Maddow, though, considering it was most likely changed to fit when their ancestors immigrated, and she is using their own version, from what I understand. The existence of one (possibly original) pronunciation doesn’t make another one invalid, especially in the case of names.
I like the spirit of it, though. Coughing and hacking is too good for those guys, but at least it’s closer to what they deserve.

True. In theory, a monarchy with matrilineal primogeniture would be just as much a monarchy as the patrilineal variety, or straight first-come-first-serves primogeniture; or for that matter, a non-primogenital (*snerk*), last-royal-standing monarchy.
–

Till right now, one of onion girl’s kittehz was sleeping next to me, on the sofa, with her back against my thigh, for something like 4 hours, following a round of purring. (Now only her feet and tail touch me.) That cat officially owns me. Every time onion girl leaves, teh kitteh cuddles herself against my shins and demands to be petted a lot, rubbing what must be her scent glands against me just like she does with all corners of furniture. (I can’t smell the scent.) She also sometimes jumps on my bed and dozes there before I get up.

I like the mountains.

I’m sure you can see them from Liechtenstein, but there aren’t any in the country itself, which is in the Rhine plain.

” What are the implications of this for a democracy founded on free speech ideals? Are these “teaching moments” like mine going to dissuade people who have jobs they want to keep from expressing their opinions, however benign?”

Earlier in this thread, I linked to a bit of asshattery by David Barton. No one said a think. So here is David Barton explaining we should have a biblical view of women. Love how he credits this to an Orthodox Rabbi.

LS,
Catch-22, eh? This is not the sign of a healthy society. Sadly I have only outrage to offer, I don’t even live there and no little about how to escape the trials of your nation’s healthcare system.
___

mythusmage

Armed robbery is dehumanizing for both the survivor and the robber.

You’ve never been a robber.

I think it would be fair to point out that having been dehumanized is more than likely what leads someone to becoming an armed robber, while committing the act spreads that to the survivor as well. My sympathies are still stronger for the one than the other, and were it an immediate situation I know who I would act to help first.
___

Audley,
Snow? Ooof.
_

Who wants to see The Misfits without Glenn Danzig?

Err, I would watch Glenn without the Misfits.
___

Caine,
I am sorry to hear about Alfie. Give Chas an extra bit of attention from the wet coast.
___

Audley,
Can you get by with heater pads? Our frogs and our tarantula both had the heater pads which seem to last indefinitely and generate a good amount of heat for comfortable baking.
___

SallyStrange,
Best of luck with the interview.
___

rorschach,
Hope love interest can keep above the waters. That sounds very scary, keep us up to date.
___

Giliell,

I will further propose the following experiment:

Challenge accepted. I would expect something akin to all of the above though.
___

Carlie,
Thanks for that link. I hesitate to comment at all as I can grasp but poorly the troubles that too many find familiar in that comic. Still, it will stick with me whenever I ride with furious intent, eat skittles, or touch spiders.

Question for the academic/tech geeks among the horde: I recently had to get a new computer due to old one dying, and it turns out my copy of Endnote X2 is not compatible with Word 2010. I heard vaguely some time ago of an equivalent open-source bibliography program, but for the life of me can’t remember what it was called. Any recommendations? I’m in the final, hectic year of my PhD (I used to think the UK system with 3-4 year time limits was better than the US with indefinite-length PhDs, now that I’m hitting the final year I’m not so sure…) so will need something reliable for thesis-bibliography.

Thank you. He’s having some tea now, after setting some choice lettuce leaves aside in the ferret tent for Alfie. :sigh:

Speaking of shoveling, there’s some shit happening on today’s “why I am an atheist” thread if anyone’s sitting around bored.

I found the entry unfortunate and distasteful, but I’m not going to get in the middle of those comments. I think it was mostly thoughtlessness, hopefully the person that wrote it will comprehend the problems now.

I assume they mean life partner, as in lover. If so, it would seem that Randi fell into the same legal trap that all binational same-sex couples in the USA face since we are not allowed to sponsor our partners for a visa like opposite-sex couples can. Randi would have had it even worse than same-sex families today because the two apparently met in the 1980s before legal recognition of one’s relationship at the state level existed and before we ever had a president who is somewhat sympathetic to the plights of binational same-sex families.

This just fucking sucks! The news report says his partner is going to plead guilty to stealing someone else’s identity (a man in New York who is still alive), which probably means deportation and a very difficult road ahead for him and Randi.

Aratina Cage, am I confusing you with some one else or were you recently in a similarly difficult situation with your partner having to leave the country indefinitely? I’ve been gone for a while and I may also be getting confused.

Algernon, you are not confused. That was me. My defacto husband’s visa ran out and he had to leave. Luckily, he was able to come back for a few years for work so we are hoping for the best (repeal of DOMA or sponsorship through work) by the time it becomes an issue for us again. Really, we are very lucky. So many families have no chance like we did and no way to launch a legal fight as some other binational same-sex couples have recently done; most either have to separate or live here or in the foreign country together under a lie. (And I can’t stress enough how if a binational same-sex couple legally weds, the marriage itself is grounds for deportation under federal law. Talk about fucked up!)

If so, it would seem that Randi fell into the same legal trap that all binational same-sex couples in the USA face since we are not allowed to sponsor our partners for a visa like opposite-sex couples can.

Indeed. (I work in an immigration law clinic on campus, so this is an issue I’ve come across before.)

A US citizen who is married to a non-citizen can file a Form I-130 petition in order to get hir spouse Legal Permanent Resident (“green card”) status. This is one of the fastest ways to get a green card, since one can file the I-130 and I-485 (application for permanent residence) at the same time (unlike the other family-based petition categories, for which Congress sets annual limits, so one often has to wait years after filing the petition for a visa number to become available). But thanks to DOMA, the most misnamed and ridiculous piece of legislation in history, this doesn’t apply to same-sex couples – even if, as here in Massachusetts, they are legally able to marry under state law. It’s completely fucking stupid.

Repealing DOMA would be just the tip of the iceberg in fixing America’s screwed-up immigration laws, but it would be a good start. There is absolutely no justification for splitting same-sex couples apart by force, where an opposite-sex couple in the same position would have the right to stay together.

opposablethumbs: Yes. For most legal purposes, including those of Part 8 of the Immigration Rules, a civil partnership is treated as equivalent to a marriage. So the civil partner of a British citizen can apply for leave to enter and/or remain on the same basis as the husband or wife of a British citizen.

The rules are still ludicrously restrictive, but at least they treat same-sex and opposite-sex couples equally.

Of course, in a sensible world, it wouldn’t be an issue, because it would be possible to live and work wherever the hell one pleases without having to plead for the permission of a government in order to do so, and a person’s rights would not be defined by the accidental factor of where xe happened to be born. But that’s a faraway goal. All one can do is seek to make it better one step at a time.

A quick google suggests that same-sex couples can in fact get a same-sex equivalent of the “fiancé visa” to the UK.
.

Apropos of nothing (TET rules OK) I was suddenly reminded earlier today that Carlotta Ikeda is perhaps the most wonderful dancer the world has ever known (British understatement ur doing it wrong but I don’t care). Well, in butoh anyway. I am a dance ignoramus, but she is so powerful it takes your breath away (I admit I don’t know much – hardly anything about dance. I’m mostly thinking of one time I saw her perform when she was younger – strength incarnate. I’ve read she is still like that even now that she is older).

Oh, sorry Walton – I was writing (slowly) while you were posting. I thought you would certainly know all about this, but wasn’t certain if you were around right that moment (and it felt a bit presumptuous to just say “oh, Walton will know” – you know?)

I was so surprised that the comments I’ve read so far seriously smack down the anti-vaxxers crowd.

I expected less from the people who read USA Today. (It came up on FARK.)
++++++++++++++++
Yeah, I was slightly bothered by the latest “why I am an atheist” post. I thought the post was touching and honest, if clumsy and unaware.

I thought the vituperative attacks on the writer were unjustified. A simple “ya know, this is where you fucked up” would have been sufficient.

Caine, I’m so sorry about Alfie. I know it’s hard on pets when they lose a compaions, so I hope that Chas handles it okay in the next few days. Chocolate and alcoholic beverages added to the pile.

Immigration and marriage: people here have a much greater degree of experience in this area and it’s currently under discussion, but my question is a little bit off the current topic of same-sex partner inequity under the system. I have a cousin (once removed I think, but my extended family is pretty close) who is married to a Danish woman. She is here illegally and has been for years (I’d guess a total of eight or so based on their son’s age). I believe she’s using the fact that she’s not gotten a green card to avoid having to contribute to her household. She keeps lamenting that they have no money and that’s such a shame she can’t work to help out.

My aunts who are resident aliens have told her that she should just get it taken care of, but she whines that they don’t understand it’s so hard because she’s currently here illegally. Is this true? Is it actually the case that it would be difficult for her to get residency because she’s been here illegally since her marriage?

I should note that I personally don’t like her because I think she’s the laziest person I’ve ever met. She is sleeping or hiding every time I go to visit my elderly great-aunt, who they live with off of, and their place is perpetually filthy. (Not simply messy mind you, it’s actually a bit gross.) It feels like she just wants to not do anything at all, whether it’s help an old lady clean up or hold down a job.

Aratina, I’m glad it’s worked out for now. I hope it continues to do so. Also, very good to see you around more again. :)

The Sailor – most of the more vituperative comments were aimed at other commenters who swooped in to say there was nothing wrong with anything in the essay at all. And yeah, for people who are seeing that attitude for the five hundredth time, I think they had reason to be upset.

Hugs and snuggles for Chas, and chocolatehugsswillwhateverelse to Caine. I don’t care if it’s a bird, a rat, or a dog – losing a pet too early is never easy.
————————————————-

It must be realizing that the anniversary of WinAce’s death is drawing close, or my job is really getting to me, but for the past two nights I’ve had bouts of crying. For the former, WinAce was only a few months younger than me when he died. I think that really drove home just how fragile and brief life is/can be. You’d think losing my dad just two months earlier would have done the job.

Tonight I’m tired, sad, and frustrated all at once. I feel like stabbing something or someone. We wouldn’t happen to have any life-size dummies of the Teabag Party figureheads, or maybe of the people at my place of work, in the back of the Saloon?

No? Right…off to play some DDO and hope that killing vampires and such will help me feel better.

Classical Cipher “Eh. This is another one of those things where… it’s an open wound for some people.”
yeah, I get it.

Carlie, I do get it, but when I left the thread they were attacking the author. I thought the author had nothing but best intentions.

I didn’t find ‘man-boy’ insulting, it’s kind of an accurate description. It’s a boys thinking process stuck in an ever aging body. (That was badly phrased, like the author’s)

It is called ‘developmentally disabled’ for a reason.

I live next door to a foster family that has 2 developmentally disabled children. The boy is around 10 and kind of a bully, but when you call him on it he’s fairly amenable to reconsidering his actions. And not sullenly. e.g. He gets it that you shouldn’t throw rocks at the (tethered) dog.

His sister is about 14, she’s sprouting out all over, and she has no idea why ‘uncle jimmy’ is bringing her presents. Her foster parents seem aware of this.

I’ve lived next to these kids for 4 years. Soon she will be a woman-girl. I’m sorry if that offends, but men and women are treated differently in our society, and I would be stupid not to acknowledge it.

I just try to be a good neighbor, and treat people the same, but I do make allowances.

The Sailor – but would you use them in a story about yourself, as an example of what a kind and generous person you are to be so good to those poor lesser people? I really don’t think you would. That’s what’s really being objected to, that the guy is so proud of himself for being kind to such a lesser being and doing so while thinking that he’s so superior.

I’ll stop, because I know this is a refuge from other threads where people don’t want to have stuff dragged in. But I did make a lot of comments on the other one, if you want to see my viewpoint on it.

On rare occasions. :-) I’m busy with (among other things) a manuscript that has come back from peer review and needs additions, I suddenly have a social life in meatspace this month, and Freethoughtblogs is still much worse than ScienceBlogs at dealing with long threads.

I still haven’t mentioned (why do I keep forgetting such things?) that teh kittehz chirp like Jurassic Park “compies”*. It’s quite incredible. At least one of them can meow, but only does it at special occasions.

Sili, what goes how? And yes, I was in the Mattir House of Pets and Chaos (…Mattir’s term), now I’m at onion girl’s Apartment of Purple and Glitter and Stars and Butterflies where the cats have their own room (but don’t stay in it), tomorrow a Horde shall gather at the National Museum of Natural History in the Smithsonian Institution and I’m probably expected to give them a guided tour, and then the Mattir family plans to take me on a trip through West Virginia and its roadcut geology/paleontology. Then, Las Vegas; then, Los Angeles, and I still don’t know how many people want to meet me and/or each other there. Bliss all over, it’s just all too short. :-(

* In the book and the movie, cat-sized or smaller, predaceous, mildly venomous, attack in hordes large enough to kill people; in the book, stupidly lizardlike, complete with specifically lizard/snake skin, behavior like seen in some lizards and nowhere else, and all the rest of Crichton’s ignorance. “Based” on the Triassic (not Jurassic or Cretaceous) Procompsognathus, which was – in hindsight – a bad idea, because that animal is known from little more than a leg; the skull that came with it was identified as belonging to a crocodile-in-the-widest-sense in 1992.

Is this true? Is it actually the case that it would be difficult for her to get residency because she’s been here illegally since her marriage?

Unfortunately, yes. I haven’t dealt with cases of this kind and don’t have any direct expertise; I’ve just spent the evening trawling through statutes, law review articles and the USCIS website to check, but I’ll have to do some more research before I give you a definite answer. But, since she is unlawfully present, my understanding is that she can’t file a Form I-485 application for adjustment of status from within the United States. Instead, she would have to leave the country and apply for an immigrant visa through a US embassy or consulate in her home country. Unfortunately, due to a nasty xenophobic piece of legislation passed in 1996 called the Illegal Immigration Reform and Immigrant Responsibility Act (IIRAIRA), those who have been unlawfully present in the US for more than one year are thereafter inadmissible to the US for ten years. So, if I’m understanding this correctly… if an undocumented migrant who is married to a US citizen wants to become an LPR, she has to leave the country; but, having left, she will not be allowed back into the country for ten years. It is possible to apply for a waiver of inadmissibility – Form I-601 – but this will only be granted if the applicant’s US-citizen-spouse would experience “extreme hardship” in the event of her being denied admission.

(Obligatory disclaimer: This is not legal advice. And I’m also not certain that I’m right; I’ll do some more digging and confirm at a later time.)

if an undocumented migrant who is married to a US citizen wants to become an LPR, she has to leave the country; but, having left, she will not be allowed back into the country for ten years.

(That is, an undocumented migrant who has been unlawfully present for more than one year. If xe has been present for more than 180 days but less than one year, xe is inadmissible for three years. Again, there is the possibility of applying for a waiver on the ground of extreme hardship. But obviously it’s very risky.)

(This just illustrates the way that the present US immigration laws tear families apart, and seek to make people – including children – suffer merely for being born in the wrong place and for crossing a border without permission.)

US immigration law is completely fucked up and deeply cruel. The things it does to LGBT binational couples is horrid.

I have a pair of friends who are engaged. They’re utterly perfect for each other. One is American, one is not. They decided to not plan their wedding (they live in MA) because that would look like the non-American is intending to overstay her visa. So they (both highly educated in fields that desperately need talent) are planning to emigrate to the country where the one can sponsor her wife for residence.

Can I just say how much I hate, hate, hate, HATE, the whole “color-blind” idea?

Dealing with it at Occupy Vancouver’s facebook page. One woman spoke out about a need for a safe space for women. She was immediately challenged and asked what had happened to make her feel unsafe, “I was unaware of any violent assaults that had happened.”

Oy and *facepalm*. Then there was the whole, “There is a safe space for humans, period.” Which is just…. rrrgghhh.

FINALLY got him to concede there may be a need after more women spoke up about their experiences and how uncomfortable they had felt at times. But he’s still harping on the whole “segregation” and “separate” issue.

This from a guy that claims the following resume:
“.like when i fought hard at the 1st United Church in the DTES for a separate women’s section or refuge for women because they were being sexually assaulted…there is so much to me you don’t know…..i think women should be seperate…like when in college i advocated for a safe house for battered women in a swanky neighbourhood in N. Van but got shut down. I have no patience for segregation in the Occupy Van site as all are equal and safe and welcome….!”

But having women speak up, and having guys tell him to fucking listen is actually having an effect. The women are eloquent and passionate, including testimonies like this:
” I agree with the OP. I don’t think men are always aware of what makes women feel unsafe. When I was facilitating last weekend, I had a man come on stage and grab me from behind. When I stepped off the stage, I was surrounded by men and it wasn’t comfortable. They were supportive, but hugs aren’t something that should be demanded. None of these things were noticed by the men around me. They aren’t sensitized to how easily women feel unsafe, sometimes. the amount of intoxication on site deters me from going by when it’s late and makes me nervous when I’m there/leaving – yet, when I brought up the issue of intoxication the first weekend, all that happened was an announcement was made that someone had asked about it – despite the lengthy debate about smoking on site. I feel like when women say what they need to feel safe/what makes them feel unsafe, they need to be listened to more attentively.”

Veritas Integritas, I will try again here. I, as a women, don’t want to need to be separate. I want the men around me to understand that touching me isn’t necessarily okay, and say something when they notice men being physical with women, entering their personal space, and presuming access. if these things improve, there won’t be the need for any separation. But as it is, there are things that happen on site that make women feel unsafe, and we don’t want to be shut out of the movement. Given that we can’t control men’s behaviour or the extent to which they put themselves out to keep us feeling safe, the request is about making a safe space for ourselves, because that is all that we can control.

sounds like your at a bar and not the occupy sight…I can appriciate fending off drunks and men grabbing from behind…but I wasn’t there so I have no comment other than; get a thicker skin or stay away from place you might be suggected to unwanted drunk hugs, or getting grabbed from behind.

Boundaries? Women violate my boundaries all the time. I work with a women who demands and guilt trips hugs from me all the time even though i have told her i am uncomfortable ….. i know it’s not the same.. i am not physically threatened by her, but still people violate my boundaries all the time….

There’s something so sick and twisted about the whole situation… everyone knows that the farm economy in the southern US is very, very, very reliant on undocumented migrants. Yet there’s so much political resistance (backed up by stupid xenophobic arguments) against giving undocumented workers amnesty and a path to citizenship. Because, while people are evidently happy to hire undocumented workers, it would, apparently, be “un-American” actually to give them civil rights and protect them from exploitation and abuse. *sigh*

Immigration reform is a basic human rights issue. The treatment of migrants in the US – detention, deportation, tearing families apart, and depriving undocumented migrants of basic civil rights even though the economy relies on their labour, and so on – is appalling beyond belief. IIRAIRA in 1996 made it a great deal worse. And since the government doesn’t even pay for legal counsel for aliens in removal proceedings – immigration courts have no equivalent to the public defender system that exists in criminal cases – many migrants aren’t even aware of the legal remedies they have even under the grossly-unsatisfactory existing law.

Nerd: Well, according to the same post by the latest troll, you’ve been beatified. (What do I have to do to become the Blessed Walton?)

(And the troll has also appended “OM” to his name without being a Molly recipient. Perhaps he’s a member of the Order of Merit, but somehow I doubt it. Alternatively, maybe it’s national Award Oneself A Title To Which One Has No Claim Day: if so, I want to be Duke of Devonshire, Prince of Saxe-Coburg and Gotha, and a Knight of the Order of the Elephant.)

For those who need a smile (and like “cute kids stories”, I’m aware not everybody thinks them to be as cute as the parents):
The following scene just happened at here.

Daughter #1 (4 yo) picks up a sponge, holds it against her ear and goes “hello, who’s there?”
Her dad asks: Oh, is it a phone?
She gives him a long, hard, “are you stupid or what?” look and tells him: No, I’m only playing, that’s a sponge!

Do not try to draw similarities to Men’s Rights Activists & confirmed bigots like the klu klux klan or feminists. The Men’s Rights Movement is a a rapidly growing movement for the betterment of men, women, their families & society wide egalitarianism. There is no more justified & desperately needed movement today, then the cause of men’s rights.

Esteleth
Bu-hu-hu-hu, you stole my MRA-friend.
I didn’t read all of it, but that seems to be his game: Try to play “good cop” by making compliments about “how reasonable” somebody is (what happend? 20 posts ago I was the only reasonable person there *cry*) and when they’re not falling for him, start sprouting bullshit.