Foxconn takes blame for the hires, says it will terminate those involved.

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Underage workers have reappeared in some of Foxconn's factories, according to a new internal investigation conducted by Foxconn's parent company Hon Hai. The company said on Tuesday that it found a number of interns younger than the legal floor of 16, but did not reveal the exact number.

"We recognize that full responsibility for these violations rests with our company and we have apologized to each of the students for our role in this action," Foxconn said in a statement, as seen by Reuters. "Any Foxconn employee found, through our investigation, to be responsible for these violations will have their employment immediately terminated."

Foxconn is largely known for manufacturing Apple's gadgets—the word "Foxconn" is nearly synonymous with iPhone and iPad manufacture in some circles—but also builds products for a number of other technology companies such as Nintendo, Sony, Microsoft, HP, Intel, Acer, and others. Still, Apple has largely been the company left combating Foxconn's negative image. Apple publishes an annual report on its suppliers—which includes data on underage labor—and the Fair Labor Association recently published its own report saying that Apple and Foxconn were indeed improving factory conditions ahead of schedule.

Apple's most recent report says incidents of underage labor being used have decreased significantly between 2010 and 2011. When Apple finds underage workers, it requires the offending suppliers to send them back to the workers' choice of school and finance their education through Apple's Child Labor Remediation program. And when the underage workers go back to school, the suppliers must also pay them the same income that they were earning while they were working at the facility.

According to China Labor Watch, schools in China are largely responsible for placing under-16 workers in factories, but, as noted by Reuters, the group did fault Foxconn for not confirming the ages of its interns before putting them to work.

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Jacqui Cheng
Jacqui is an Editor at Large at Ars Technica, where she has spent the last eight years writing about Apple culture, gadgets, social networking, privacy, and more. Emailjacqui@arstechnica.com//Twitter@eJacqui

I believe Apple's Child Labor Remediation program is a good example for companies to follow. Using children as laborers to reduce overhead costs is criminal. On a lighter note though, I kinda wish I could sign up my kids to assemble electronics in China over fall break so that they might get caught and get a free education/salary out of the deal. A good school is expensive nowdays. I suppose if they don't get caught though it would still be good learning experience for them.

When Apple finds underage workers, it requires the offending suppliers to send them back to the workers' choice of school and finance their education through Apple's Child Labor Remediation program. And when the underage workers go back to school, the suppliers must also pay them the same income that they were earning while they were working at the facility.

Although I am generally critical of Apple's behavior and willing to ascribe less-than-noble motives to its actions, I strongly approve of this right here. Sure, they might just being doing it for the PR benefits (and to offset the PR damage caused by the underage worker issue to begin with), but it's still an excellent thing to do, regardless of why they're doing it.

It's nice that Apple makes Foxconn give the underage workers wage and pay for their schooling, but that's what...probably a couple hundred dollars? Apple should fine the companies more. The Chinese government doesn't really care, so Apple has to do more to punish their suppliers for such violations. (The problem with that though is it may increase the number of underage people applying, hopping they get part of the the pay out.)

Those of you who understand the dynamics of the Chinese labour force, and how things really play out on the practical level, understand that all these programs and strategies and initiatives put in place to protect and support the bottom-of-the-barrel workers is just smoke and mirrors in what ultimately gets lost through the flow of corruption and fundamental and systematic disrespect that corporations (and the government) have for their workers. Yes, Apple's Child Labor Remediation program sounds great, but who's auditing it? What are the mechanics in place that control and measure the outcome? How many times have there been programs initiated to guard against this exact situation, and here we are...again. I know that my HR department in my Canadian company has never, ever "accidentally" hired an underage individual. I know that we don't need something like the Canada Labor Watch to make sure that factories here don't hire 14 year olds... There's a reason for this. And if Apple Inc. truly cares about this issue, then they ought to stop outsourcing their manufacturing to companies that operate in countries where child labour is not frowned upon (in practice, of course). Period.

I believe Apple's Child Labor Remediation program is a good example for companies to follow. Using children as laborers to reduce overhead costs is criminal. On a lighter note though, I kinda wish I could sign up my kids to assemble electronics in China over fall break so that they might get caught and get a free education/salary out of the deal. A good school is expensive nowdays. I suppose if they don't get caught though it would still be good learning experience for them.

You got it backwards: you should sign up your kids for a summer's worth of work with the understanding that they won't get caught. Every Western child (teenager) should have a terrible, shitty job experience so they appreciate the education opportunities they do have instead of using college as an excuse to get wasted and sleep in.

It's nice that Apple makes Foxconn give the underage workers wage and pay for their schooling, but that's what...probably a couple hundred dollars?

You're absolutely right. Poor rural subsistence farmers in China may earn less than a thousand dollars a year. A few hundred dollars a year would probably buy tuition, room and board for a student.

Corporations often get painted in a bad light for paying Chinese workers low wages, but when you cut through the emotions and the politics, the reason wages are so low for Chinese workers is because that's what their labor is worth. China's population is staggering, and wealthy and middle class Chinese are still a small minority. For those people who earn $800 a year by working 6 days a week farming land they don't own, $20 a week in a boring, relatively safe assembly line job is a veeery desirable thing. Just look at the reaction from the Chinese labor force when a new electronics factory opens.. there are mobs of people trying to obtain these jobs. It's unthinkable to many Americans that the Chinese would think so highly of so little, but China is not America. Even working in sweat-shop like conditions is a great alternative for scraping just enough money to survive out of the land.

You can paint Apple as evil as you want (I'm not an Apple guy myself), but as far as playing the "game" goes (the game being making products in China and charging 10x what they pay the supplier), they are a remarkably fair player. Maybe it is just because of how high-profile Apple is, or maybe it is something more... regardless, no other manufacturers (that I'm aware of) have any such program as the one mentioned above. The labor situation in China is not good, but it's unfair to expect Apple to be the one to fix everything. As long as there are close to a billion desperately poor Chinese barely surviving, the cost of labor in China will be low. It's as in any supply/demand relationship: when demand is high, price (wages in this case) will be low.

A broad, systemic change of China's culture and socioeconomic structure will be required before wages and worker satisfaction go up, and occurrences like these go down.

It's nice that Apple makes Foxconn give the underage workers wage and pay for their schooling, but that's what...probably a couple hundred dollars?

You're absolutely right. Poor rural subsistence farmers in China may earn less than a thousand dollars a year. A few hundred dollars a year would probably buy tuition, room and board for a student.

Corporations often get painted in a bad light for paying Chinese workers low wages, but when you cut through the emotions and the politics, the reason wages are so low for Chinese workers is because that's what their labor is worth. China's population is staggering, and wealthy and middle class Chinese are still a small minority. For those people who earn $800 a year by working 6 days a week farming land they don't own, $20 a week in a boring, relatively safe assembly line job is a veeery desirable thing. Just look at the reaction from the Chinese labor force when a new electronics factory opens.. there are mobs of people trying to obtain these jobs. It's unthinkable to many Americans that the Chinese would think so highly of so little, but China is not America. Even working in sweat-shop like conditions is a great alternative for scraping just enough money to survive out of the land.

You can paint Apple as evil as you want (I'm not an Apple guy myself), but as far as playing the "game" goes (the game being making products in China and charging 10x what they pay the supplier), they are a remarkably fair player. Maybe it is just because of how high-profile Apple is, or maybe it is something more... regardless, no other manufacturers (that I'm aware of) have any such program as the one mentioned above. The labor situation in China is not good, but it's unfair to expect Apple to be the one to fix everything. As long as there are close to a billion desperately poor Chinese barely surviving, the cost of labor in China will be low. It's as in any supply/demand relationship: when demand is high, price (wages in this case) will be low.

A broad, systemic change of China's culture and socioeconomic structure will be required before wages and worker satisfaction go up, and occurrences like these go down.

Well said. I hardly think this issue is as simple as everyone paints it. Standards like this may make westerners feel better about their consumption but that has nothing to do with what's good for the workers who actually have a stake. Should kids be in school instead of working - absolutely. But what if school isn't in the picture anyway and putting food on the table is at issue? Why is working such a bad option then? When China comes up with it's own standards and enforces them that's fine, but when one country pushes it's standards on another that's a different thing entirely.

It's nice that Apple makes Foxconn give the underage workers wage and pay for their schooling, but that's what...probably a couple hundred dollars? Apple should fine the companies more. The Chinese government doesn't really care, so Apple has to do more to punish their suppliers for such violations. (The problem with that though is it may increase the number of underage people applying, hopping they get part of the the pay out.)

Well, it's several hundred a month, and to have to pay that out potentially for YEARS, plus fund their education on top? and maybe they got to use that kid instead of some other laborer saving maybe $50-100 a month tops vs paying the kid? There's NO WAY that doing this is profitable for the company. The one and only reason they're hiring such labor is (and this has happened and been admitted to before), they fell behind contractual obligations and were potentially subject to large contract penalties for not meeting the goals they agreed to hit.

Apple DOES do more, read their supplier report. They don;t just fine them, they also mandate well in excess of standard wages, mandate stronger-than-local-law overtime requirements, demand terminations of even executives when laws are broken more than once, and in many historical cases, have refused to take shipment of compnents manufactured by illegal labor or in dangerous conditions leaving the company both taking the cost hit as well as potentially being subject to contract shortfalls in addition. Several times Apple has also either suspended or terminaed supplier contracts ENTIRELY, leaving companies holding the bag for milions of dolars in inventory.

Apple has a multi-stage action plan based on the severity of the incidents, and frequency of the incidents. But lets face it, the vast majority of these labor issue aare not bad hiring practces, but people who want jobs are who are willing to lie to get them.

Foxconn deserves to be raked over the coals for many things, but let's remember that this article presents a particularly Western view of the situation. Is making a kid who's 14 spend ten hours a day putting together iPhone's something we should aim for as an endgame? Absolutely not. But let's be careful about demonizing a company operating in a completely different company and socio-economic context according to our values. The reality is that the kids Foxconn is going to "terminate" as the result of this probe couldn't give a rat's ass about anything other than the fact that now he or she is bringing home no supplemental income, and life is just going to be harder. Nick Kristoff has any number of great and insightful things to say about this.

Those of you who understand the dynamics of the Chinese labour force, and how things really play out on the practical level, understand that all these programs and strategies and initiatives put in place to protect and support the bottom-of-the-barrel workers is just smoke and mirrors in what ultimately gets lost through the flow of corruption and fundamental and systematic disrespect that corporations (and the government) have for their workers. Yes, Apple's Child Labor Remediation program sounds great, but who's auditing it? What are the mechanics in place that control and measure the outcome? How many times have there been programs initiated to guard against this exact situation, and here we are...again. I know that my HR department in my Canadian company has never, ever "accidentally" hired an underage individual. I know that we don't need something like the Canada Labor Watch to make sure that factories here don't hire 14 year olds... There's a reason for this. And if Apple Inc. truly cares about this issue, then they ought to stop outsourcing their manufacturing to companies that operate in countries where child labour is not frowned upon (in practice, of course). Period.

Edit: I should add that I, like nearly everyone else, believe the manufacturing should be done here as well, but that's not going to happen as long as we have tax policies that make it cheaper to produce overseas.

When Apple finds underage workers, it requires the offending suppliers to send them back to the workers' choice of school and finance their education through Apple's Child Labor Remediation program. And when the underage workers go back to school, the suppliers must also pay them the same income that they were earning while they were working at the facility.

Although I am generally critical of Apple's behavior and willing to ascribe less-than-noble motives to its actions, I strongly approve of this right here. Sure, they might just being doing it for the PR benefits (and to offset the PR damage caused by the underage worker issue to begin with), but it's still an excellent thing to do, regardless of why they're doing it.

Seriously, just wanted to emphasis that this little nugget has significantly improved my impression of Apple as a corporate citizen so well done them.

Also skimming the iTouch review it seems like a very decent device at a not too extortionate price so there are two positive things about Apple today and I definitely didn't expect that when clicking on this article's link!

Foxconn deserves to be raked over the coals for many things, but let's remember that this article presents a particularly Western view of the situation. Is making a kid who's 14 spend ten hours a day putting together iPhone's something we should aim for as an endgame? Absolutely not. But let's be careful about demonizing a company operating in a completely different company and socio-economic context according to our values. The reality is that the kids Foxconn is going to "terminate" as the result of this probe couldn't give a rat's ass about anything other than the fact that now he or she is bringing home no supplemental income, and life is just going to be harder. Nick Kristoff has any number of great and insightful things to say about this.

Let's be smart about how we effect change, that's all.

Oh, but that's what people (typically, in my experience, left-of-center people) do: they say that all cultures are equal, that no one culture is better than any other, while simultaneously vociferating that others should be doing things the same way we do.

Those of you who understand the dynamics of the Chinese labour force, and how things really play out on the practical level, understand that all these programs and strategies and initiatives put in place to protect and support the bottom-of-the-barrel workers is just smoke and mirrors in what ultimately gets lost through the flow of corruption and fundamental and systematic disrespect that corporations (and the government) have for their workers. Yes, Apple's Child Labor Remediation program sounds great, but who's auditing it? What are the mechanics in place that control and measure the outcome? How many times have there been programs initiated to guard against this exact situation, and here we are...again. I know that my HR department in my Canadian company has never, ever "accidentally" hired an underage individual. I know that we don't need something like the Canada Labor Watch to make sure that factories here don't hire 14 year olds... There's a reason for this. And if Apple Inc. truly cares about this issue, then they ought to stop outsourcing their manufacturing to companies that operate in countries where child labour is not frowned upon (in practice, of course). Period.

Edit: I should add that I, like nearly everyone else, believe the manufacturing should be done here as well, but that's not going to happen as long as we have tax policies that make it cheaper to produce overseas.

I wish manufacturing happened more in the West too but unless companies were willing to sell their products at cost then they would never reach mass market prices and they would still be undercut by their Chinese rivals (OK maybe not if they hadn't built up their manufacturing skill with our help but you can't reverse time).

Obviously, if workers wages had increased at a decent level this might not have mattered so much but then these same companies would have greater costs so it would still be hard for them to sell at much above cost. Unfortunately not every company is as generous as Amazon to make virtually no profit on the back of such high revenues and whilst as a consumer that makes me like Amazon more, I'm sure investors wouldn't be so pleased and fundamentally a company has an overriding duty to its investors (unfortunately).

It's nice that Apple makes Foxconn give the underage workers wage and pay for their schooling, but that's what...probably a couple hundred dollars? Apple should fine the companies more. The Chinese government doesn't really care, so Apple has to do more to punish their suppliers for such violations. (The problem with that though is it may increase the number of underage people applying, hopping they get part of the the pay out.)

Well, it's several hundred a month, and to have to pay that out potentially for YEARS, plus fund their education on top? and maybe they got to use that kid instead of some other laborer saving maybe $50-100 a month tops vs paying the kid? There's NO WAY that doing this is profitable for the company. The one and only reason they're hiring such labor is (and this has happened and been admitted to before), they fell behind contractual obligations and were potentially subject to large contract penalties for not meeting the goals they agreed to hit.

Apple DOES do more, read their supplier report. They don;t just fine them, they also mandate well in excess of standard wages, mandate stronger-than-local-law overtime requirements, demand terminations of even executives when laws are broken more than once, and in many historical cases, have refused to take shipment of compnents manufactured by illegal labor or in dangerous conditions leaving the company both taking the cost hit as well as potentially being subject to contract shortfalls in addition. Several times Apple has also either suspended or terminaed supplier contracts ENTIRELY, leaving companies holding the bag for milions of dolars in inventory.

Apple has a multi-stage action plan based on the severity of the incidents, and frequency of the incidents. But lets face it, the vast majority of these labor issue aare not bad hiring practces, but people who want jobs are who are willing to lie to get them.

I'm skeptical that they pay the kids any longer than it takes for them to be an adult (16) or finish the schooling that's paid for (and assuming no corruption of school officials paid off to say the kid has gone as far as they can go).

The kids are from poor farming areas and live in China, I doubt that the education they could potentially receive is much better than learning basic arithmetic, reading, writing, some history (yay propaganda) and maybe a little science. They're not getting sent to an American university for tends of thousands of dollars or even one of the premier Chinese universities (I doubt the government wants them there and I doubt they are prepared for such academic rigors -- if they could afford living in the cities). They are going to stay in their general area and attend what passes for education in that area. This isn't very expensive.

The point of the punishment is to make Foxconn feel it in their pockets and see it on their bottom line. Apple should be fining magnitudes greater if they want Foxconn to take the issue as serious as it deserves to be.

As an aside, there is also the issue of what do they do after their education? They will likely end up working at the factory again, if they will even hire the person again due to their previous troubles. They can find someone else to take a relatively good job (by Chinese standards in the poor areas).

And I'm aware of the other things, we are discussing one particular issue and Apple's solution to the problem.

Those of you who understand the dynamics of the Chinese labour force, and how things really play out on the practical level, understand that all these programs and strategies and initiatives put in place to protect and support the bottom-of-the-barrel workers is just smoke and mirrors in what ultimately gets lost through the flow of corruption and fundamental and systematic disrespect that corporations (and the government) have for their workers. Yes, Apple's Child Labor Remediation program sounds great, but who's auditing it? What are the mechanics in place that control and measure the outcome? How many times have there been programs initiated to guard against this exact situation, and here we are...again. I know that my HR department in my Canadian company has never, ever "accidentally" hired an underage individual. I know that we don't need something like the Canada Labor Watch to make sure that factories here don't hire 14 year olds... There's a reason for this. And if Apple Inc. truly cares about this issue, then they ought to stop outsourcing their manufacturing to companies that operate in countries where child labour is not frowned upon (in practice, of course). Period.

Edit: I should add that I, like nearly everyone else, believe the manufacturing should be done here as well, but that's not going to happen as long as we have tax policies that make it cheaper to produce overseas.

I wish manufacturing happened more in the West too but unless companies were willing to sell their products at cost then they would never reach mass market prices and they would still be undercut by their Chinese rivals (OK maybe not if they hadn't built up their manufacturing skill with our help but you can't reverse time).

Obviously, if workers wages had increased at a decent level this might not have mattered so much but then these same companies would have greater costs so it would still be hard for them to sell at much above cost. Unfortunately not every company is as generous as Amazon to make virtually no profit on the back of such high revenues and whilst as a consumer that makes me like Amazon more, I'm sure investors wouldn't be so pleased and fundamentally a company has an overriding duty to its investors (unfortunately).

At the risk of getting off-topic, I've always found the current situation strange. Nearly everyone, including both major political parties, agree that we have to again start making stuff over here, yet nothing ever gets done about it. As much as I didn't like Rick Santorum, I loved his plan of a 0% tax for manufacturers that produce 100% of their goods domestically.

I believe Apple's Child Labor Remediation program is a good example for companies to follow. Using children as laborers to reduce overhead costs is criminal. On a lighter note though, I kinda wish I could sign up my kids to assemble electronics in China over fall break so that they might get caught and get a free education/salary out of the deal. A good school is expensive nowdays. I suppose if they don't get caught though it would still be good learning experience for them.

You got it backwards: you should sign up your kids for a summer's worth of work with the understanding that they won't get caught. Every Western child (teenager) should have a terrible, shitty job experience so they appreciate the education opportunities they do have instead of using college as an excuse to get wasted and sleep in.

I actually plan to do that with my kids. I expect their first job to be a suck job either in fastfood or retail inventory while they're 14 or 15, a few hours a week and not enough to detract from education, at which point I will otherwise terminate their allowance forcing them to appreciate that income and not see it as "bonus" money. By junior year, they should be juggling a 16-20 hour a week job and their education. They'll have to make choices between fun things and working to pay for what they want. I expect them to be on a "budget" and actually be planning their income, expenses, etc while juggling education. If they're slacking or falling behind, maybe that nice job in an airconditioned building will be replaced by something requiring manual labor, drive the lesson home.

I think at some point in their lives, EVERYONE should be forced to work in the service industry for at least siome period of time as well; it teaches humility in ways not otherwise easily learned. I think some time spent in a retail setting is also eye opening. In college, an internship or exernship in traditional business, medical, etc should bring them to realize there is clearly a better alternative if they're willing to reach for it. By the time they're out of college, i expect my kids to have a solid work ethic, personal motivation, and a long lasting desire to work smarter so they don't have to work harder. The whole time, 5% goes to an emergency fund and 10% goes to retirement savings.

I strongly believe we've gotten too soft as a nation. Suffering, loss, hardship, and strict rules build character and drive. If you're never exposed to it, you might believe you'll get a handout your whole life. People should not be protected from failure, they need to EXPERIENCE failure. Witout true concequence society falls apart.

Edit: I should add that I, like nearly everyone else, believe the manufacturing should be done here as well, but that's not going to happen as long as we have tax policies that make it cheaper to produce overseas.

I really disagree with this general theory.

Americans don't want to do manufacturing jobs like these anymore. You can raise the tax to import to the point that they become viable to build and employee American manufacturers, and that raises the prices for everyone for just about everything (glossing over the giant middle finger you're giving to global politics). Or you can cut taxes and restrictions to get a lower living standard for Americans. And then you get to hope that the jobs come here and not to a country with even looser restrictions.

Certain products make economical sense to perform overseas and you cannot escape that fact. You either lower our own standards or tell the rest of the world you don't feel like playing anymore.

Those of you who understand the dynamics of the Chinese labour force, and how things really play out on the practical level, understand that all these programs and strategies and initiatives put in place to protect and support the bottom-of-the-barrel workers is just smoke and mirrors in what ultimately gets lost through the flow of corruption and fundamental and systematic disrespect that corporations (and the government) have for their workers. Yes, Apple's Child Labor Remediation program sounds great, but who's auditing it? What are the mechanics in place that control and measure the outcome? How many times have there been programs initiated to guard against this exact situation, and here we are...again. I know that my HR department in my Canadian company has never, ever "accidentally" hired an underage individual. I know that we don't need something like the Canada Labor Watch to make sure that factories here don't hire 14 year olds... There's a reason for this. And if Apple Inc. truly cares about this issue, then they ought to stop outsourcing their manufacturing to companies that operate in countries where child labour is not frowned upon (in practice, of course). Period.

Edit: I should add that I, like nearly everyone else, believe the manufacturing should be done here as well, but that's not going to happen as long as we have tax policies that make it cheaper to produce overseas.

Its a world economy. Most of this stuff is made in one place in the world for very specific reasons: proximity to resources and proximity to the customer base. Also, quality controls are simply better when you have one facility instead of 10, and, some of these components really only can be made in one place (chips/screens). When the vast majority of the components you use are made somewhere, and 80% of your customers are connected by land to that place, you build your factory there too.

Face it, shipping all those materials and components to the USA to then send them back overseas for sale is simply not viable. Anythign currentluy made in China would sooner be made in ANY other nation on that continent before it will be made in the USA. Even if our labor cost less, and our laws made the facility cost less, and we subsidized the power costs as their giovernment does, it would STILL cost more and take more time to get things made here.

People think the USA is the certer of the world. Nope. We're very far from the rest of it, mexico is limited as a world economy and Canada is barely a blip. We have world mindshare, and, due in large part to our isolation, we have been able to build the world's best military and maintain independence, but that's mostly due to our ability to have stayed OUT of most of the world's conflicts outside of WWI and II, the only time we were really threatened on any level militarily since our independence. Because of those savings, and our might, and our freedoms, we contribute a ton to the world economy, but that does not in ANY way mean we're an ideal place to have things made. hell, even if you could do it, and broke FoxConn up into 5 or 6 smaller pieces, and spread it across the USA, you know honestly we would still have issues just finding the 300,000 workers needed. There are few places in the USA where even a 50 or 60K strong workforce can be located. A city would have to have several million residents to find that many freely available skilled laborers without upturning the local economy and creating other job shortages. The USAs population density does not lend us to large scale manufacture, we're best at having lots and lots of small facilties. This stuff can;t be made that way, the logistics simply do not work out.

Edit: I should add that I, like nearly everyone else, believe the manufacturing should be done here as well, but that's not going to happen as long as we have tax policies that make it cheaper to produce overseas.

Firstly, an audit that is partial is not an audit at all. Not suggesting that it's a waste of time, but it's not an audit. Apple auditing Apple isn't effective, especially when management mentality is that of "we can do no wrong". The point of an audit is that it's arm's length and that there's not even inasmuch as the impression (let alone the fact) of conflict of interest. Secondly, was it through audits that the consumers learned about all the problems at Foxconn, or was it through whistlebolwers and media attention? I'm sure it was always through the latter, so that tells you something about those audits. These auditors Apple keeps sending in after problems surface is also a little pointless because if there's one thing China does perfectly is to put on a show when a factory is being audited. I would know. The one thing I want to make absolutely clear though is that this is by no means isolated. Any North American and European and even Asian companies outsourcing to mainland China are at risk of human resource policies being disregarded by the contractor simply because they don't have to care. Apple's HR policies do not apply or have to mirror, in this case, Foxconn's. The only real solution here is for Apple to seek a manufacturer who is aligned with Apple's core values...and good luck finding such a factory in mainland China.

Edit: I should add that I, like nearly everyone else, believe the manufacturing should be done here as well, but that's not going to happen as long as we have tax policies that make it cheaper to produce overseas.

Firstly, an audit that is partial is not an audit at all. Not suggesting that it's a waste of time, but it's not an audit. Apple auditing Apple isn't effective, especially when management mentality is that of "we can do no wrong". The point of an audit is that it's arm's length and that there's not even inasmuch as the impression (let alone the fact) of conflict of interest. Secondly, was it through audits that the consumers learned about all the problems at Foxconn, or was it through whistlebolwers and media attention? I'm sure it was always through the latter, so that tells you something about those audits. These auditors Apple keeps sending in after problems surface is also a little pointless because if there's one thing China does perfectly is to put on a show when a factory is being audited. I would know. The one thing I want to make absolutely clear though is that this is by no means isolated. Any North American and European and even Asian companies outsourcing to mainland China are at risk of human resource policies being disregarded by the contractor simply because they don't have to care. Apple's HR policies do not apply or have to mirror, in this case, Foxconn's. The only real solution here is for Apple to seek a manufacturer who is aligned with Apple's core values...and good luck finding such a factory in mainland China.

You do know that Apple isn't Foxconn's only client, right? Apple doesn't audit all Foxconn facilities, only the ones they use.

I believe Apple's Child Labor Remediation program is a good example for companies to follow. Using children as laborers to reduce overhead costs is criminal. On a lighter note though, I kinda wish I could sign up my kids to assemble electronics in China over fall break so that they might get caught and get a free education/salary out of the deal. A good school is expensive nowdays. I suppose if they don't get caught though it would still be good learning experience for them.

You got it backwards: you should sign up your kids for a summer's worth of work with the understanding that they won't get caught. Every Western child (teenager) should have a terrible, shitty job experience so they appreciate the education opportunities they do have instead of using college as an excuse to get wasted and sleep in.

Honestly, when I was 14, I worked in a bakery, complete with huge, dangerous ovens, potentially finger mangling bread slicing machine and above a storage room that looked something like the torture chamber out of "The Girl with the Dragon Tattoo". I learned a lot, especially how *not* to get hurt, and how to count back change in my head.

This job came AFTER the year I spent dodging vicious dogs and snarling homeowners on my brother's paper route.

These days, my son practically had to stand outside the Shop-Rite personnel office for a week to even be considered for a job. Most employers in the US want nothing to do with anyone under 17 or 18. Sad for American teens.

Those of you who understand the dynamics of the Chinese labour force, and how things really play out on the practical level, understand that all these programs and strategies and initiatives put in place to protect and support the bottom-of-the-barrel workers is just smoke and mirrors in what ultimately gets lost through the flow of corruption and fundamental and systematic disrespect that corporations (and the government) have for their workers. Yes, Apple's Child Labor Remediation program sounds great, but who's auditing it? What are the mechanics in place that control and measure the outcome? How many times have there been programs initiated to guard against this exact situation, and here we are...again. I know that my HR department in my Canadian company has never, ever "accidentally" hired an underage individual. I know that we don't need something like the Canada Labor Watch to make sure that factories here don't hire 14 year olds... There's a reason for this. And if Apple Inc. truly cares about this issue, then they ought to stop outsourcing their manufacturing to companies that operate in countries where child labour is not frowned upon (in practice, of course). Period.

While that's true, China has only a short history of not allowing children to work in order to subsidize their family's income. It was critical for centuries, if not millennia, that they do so. This sort of social norm takes time to change. Not only do the children often feel marginalized by not being allowed to work but many adults see nothing whatsoever wrong with it and feel the problem is "nosy foreigners telling them what to do". I base this on a friend who is a Chinese immigrant with whom I have spoken at length regarding the issues. She was a worker as a child herself and asked me once why we don't allow kids to work wherever they like here. It's quite interesting to see the cultural differences.

I also wonder how much of an incentive having the school paid for on top of a wage is. I mean, that makes it almost seem like it's beneficial to "get a job" then get caught so you can get paid for not working.

When Apple finds underage workers, it requires the offending suppliers to send them back to the workers' choice of school and finance their education through Apple's Child Labor Remediation program. And when the underage workers go back to school, the suppliers must also pay them the same income that they were earning while they were working at the facility.

Err, kudos to Apple for making the effort, but doesn't that seem like a huge incentive for kids to try to sneak in? At worst, they get a cushy factory job, and if they're lucky, they instead get a free ride to any school they want, and they keep collecting their factory wages? Talk about win-win.

I believe Apple's Child Labor Remediation program is a good example for companies to follow. Using children as laborers to reduce overhead costs is criminal. On a lighter note though, I kinda wish I could sign up my kids to assemble electronics in China over fall break so that they might get caught and get a free education/salary out of the deal. A good school is expensive nowdays. I suppose if they don't get caught though it would still be good learning experience for them.

You got it backwards: you should sign up your kids for a summer's worth of work with the understanding that they won't get caught. Every Western child (teenager) should have a terrible, shitty job experience so they appreciate the education opportunities they do have instead of using college as an excuse to get wasted and sleep in.

I actually plan to do that with my kids. I expect their first job to be a suck job either in fastfood or retail inventory while they're 14 or 15, a few hours a week and not enough to detract from education, at which point I will otherwise terminate their allowance forcing them to appreciate that income and not see it as "bonus" money. By junior year, they should be juggling a 16-20 hour a week job and their education. They'll have to make choices between fun things and working to pay for what they want. I expect them to be on a "budget" and actually be planning their income, expenses, etc while juggling education. If they're slacking or falling behind, maybe that nice job in an airconditioned building will be replaced by something requiring manual labor, drive the lesson home.

I think at some point in their lives, EVERYONE should be forced to work in the service industry for at least siome period of time as well; it teaches humility in ways not otherwise easily learned. I think some time spent in a retail setting is also eye opening. In college, an internship or exernship in traditional business, medical, etc should bring them to realize there is clearly a better alternative if they're willing to reach for it. By the time they're out of college, i expect my kids to have a solid work ethic, personal motivation, and a long lasting desire to work smarter so they don't have to work harder. The whole time, 5% goes to an emergency fund and 10% goes to retirement savings.

I strongly believe we've gotten too soft as a nation. Suffering, loss, hardship, and strict rules build character and drive. If you're never exposed to it, you might believe you'll get a handout your whole life. People should not be protected from failure, they need to EXPERIENCE failure. Witout true concequence society falls apart.

While I may quibble on the number of hours you want your kids to work as a junior in high school (I'd cut that in half, personally) the part of your post I bolded is spot on. For too long we have refused to educate our children regarding the realities of adult life, allowing them to become "grown up children" and then wondering why they can't manage to survive. Hell, my own mother refused to even discuss finances with us because "that's her business, not ours". As a result, I had to learn how to manage finances on my own and, to be honest, I fucked it up pretty bad for several years before getting the hang of it. I am by no means a unique snowflake in this, either, from what I can tell.

We need to stop coddling children and instead start training them at a very young age how to handle the basics of living an adult life. How else will we ever get out of the rut of living beyond our means into which we, as a society, have gotten ourselves?

That's like finding out the Google office in my city is murdering puppies and then saying "Well none of the search servers are at that location so it isn't a big deal"

Actually, it's more like finding out the electric cooperative that powers Google's servers had some sort of toxic spill three states away, and then criticizing Google for supporting such deplorable business practices.

Quote:

Like it or not Apple is Foxconn's most known about customer, and doing business with a shitty company is a bad idea all around.

Those of you who understand the dynamics of the Chinese labour force, and how things really play out on the practical level, understand that all these programs and strategies and initiatives put in place to protect and support the bottom-of-the-barrel workers is just smoke and mirrors in what ultimately gets lost through the flow of corruption and fundamental and systematic disrespect that corporations (and the government) have for their workers. Yes, Apple's Child Labor Remediation program sounds great, but who's auditing it? What are the mechanics in place that control and measure the outcome? How many times have there been programs initiated to guard against this exact situation, and here we are...again. I know that my HR department in my Canadian company has never, ever "accidentally" hired an underage individual. I know that we don't need something like the Canada Labor Watch to make sure that factories here don't hire 14 year olds... There's a reason for this. And if Apple Inc. truly cares about this issue, then they ought to stop outsourcing their manufacturing to companies that operate in countries where child labour is not frowned upon (in practice, of course). Period.

I used to work for one of the top DRAM manufacturing and testing companies in the US; one of the primary sources of employees during down-times was the staffing agency industry. There were many, many times that 16 and 17 year old kids were sent out to work overnight shifts in a warehouse setting (heavy machinery and tools present) by these staffing agencies because they wouldn't screen applicants. We would usually take a look at the new temps and flat out ask if they were of legal age yet (you can't ask specific questions for fear of child protection or other age discrimination laws) because a fifth of the time they weren't.

This kind of crap doesn't just happen in second and third world countries.

Actually, it's more like finding out the electric cooperative that powers Google's servers had some sort of toxic spill three states away, and then criticizing Google for supporting such deplorable business practices.

No, Apple can choose to not use Foxconn, you can't choose to not use your power company.

Actually, it's more like finding out the electric cooperative that powers Google's servers had some sort of toxic spill three states away, and then criticizing Google for supporting such deplorable business practices.

No, Apple can choose to not use Foxconn, you can't choose to not use your power company.

Yeah you can.

Or you can buy power from someone else, it's just impractical. Just like it's impractical for Apple to go to someone else.

But most of the distribution network is the same, so no you really can't change that.

Yeah you could. You could invest in a new distribution network. You could even move your house closer. It's impractical though. And Apple changing away from Foxconn is impractical too. They are so heavily invested in that company (like machinery) and its locations, it's an unreasonable request...especially when you begin to calculate the economics of such a move and realize Foxconn's relative place in the world of manufacturing.

When Apple finds underage workers, it requires the offending suppliers to send them back to the workers' choice of school and finance their education through Apple's Child Labor Remediation program. And when the underage workers go back to school, the suppliers must also pay them the same income that they were earning while they were working at the facility.

Err, kudos to Apple for making the effort, but doesn't that seem like a huge incentive for kids to try to sneak in? At worst, they get a cushy factory job, and if they're lucky, they instead get a free ride to any school they want, and they keep collecting their factory wages? Talk about win-win.

And it would be HR department's job to fact check exactly who they are hiring.

No, Apple can choose to not use Foxconn, you can't choose to not use your power company.

Apple are getting close, but if you don't like power as an example, how about the servers themselves? Are you going to criticize Google for procuring equipment from manufacturers which use Foxconn, such as Microsoft, HP, and Intel?