People prefer 10s because it's the easier and faster route to the rewards.

People prefer 10s because it easier and takes less effort and work to find a raid group that suits you and your schedule.
People prefer 10s because its faster to get going and there is less down time due to loot distribution, repalcing no-shows, loot/guild drama and so on.
The hardcore progression minded group likes 10s because its far easier to skew the system to favor the group they are in.

Which of these are actually isues Blizzard should address with a high priority? None of them.

When there's a faster and easier route to the same rewards, people would feel like idiots for taking the more difficult path for the same rewards. That's why people migrated from 10 to 25, not because they somehow prefer the smaller number of people.

That's an argument I find largely ridiculous.

You know what the easiest path for many of these players would have been? To stay where they were in a 25 man group where someone else did the work. Instead, they decided to act, to move, to go to the effort and bother of setting up a new guild and raid group, giving up their guild perks and starting from scratch in order to face content that provided a very similar challenge in most cases. These groups took on real world effort and often spent real life money to move to 10s. And this wasn't restricted to just the hardcore who might care about small margins of efficiency.

Players moved to 10s and took on the extar work involved in running a guild because it gave most of them content that was similarly as chellenging, gave them equal rewards but offered them something 25s didn't. Are all those who claim that they can't run 25s on their PCs lying? Are all those who claim they simply prefer the feeling of having a bigger imapct mistaken? Does the opinion of those who say they simply like being able to see what happens on screen irrelevant? Those players who simply want to run content with their friends - are they fiends in human guise for not wanting to play with people they don't are about?

The "players play 10s because it offers equal reward for less effort" excuse is overly simplistic and overlooks much of the rationales behind the migration towards 10s. Its snappy, and it makes 25s feel good about themselves because it tells them they are players who are good enough to stay 25s, but ultimately, its an excuse and rationale that does more harm to the cause of saving 25s than good.

Ok, if that was the goal, they failed. There's no doubt about that. I observed ALL THE 25 MAN GUILDS FAIL on m server in the the current system, with probably a hundred raiders who no longer could run the formant they preferred so they quit the game or quit raiding.

Depends. If a few hundred can't raid 25s but thousands can raid 10s then overall whereas before it was a case of a few hundred can raids the 25s they wanted, accompanied by thousands who were dragged into 25s then overall...it hasn't failed.

They could additionally but better itemized loot which only drops on 25m. Not higher ilevel, but an extra socket, etc or better stats.

In short, give 25s better gear everyone feels obliged to run 25s to get it. This also reduces the scope for Blizzard to temsie gear because one of the system it does have in place is that itemisation and stat distruibution does get better as the Tiers increase.

You know what the easiest path for many of these players would have been? To stay where they were in a 25 man group where someone else did the work. Instead, they decided to act, to move, to go to the effort and bother of setting up a new guild and raid group, giving up their guild perks and starting from scratch in order to face content that provided a very similar challenge in most cases.

Once again your inexperience with 25 man guilds shows. The cause that 25 man guilds died was not that people decided to act and move to start new 10 mans. 25 mans failed because a) the recruit pool dried up when the un-guilded players realized they would get their loot faster if they joined a 10 man instead of a 25 man, and b) because in every guild there was that group of people that wanted to kick out "bads" and transform into 10 man for faster progress, more loot and higher ranks and c) old core raiders got bored with the game (no progress model, recycled shitty content).

The "players play 10s because it offers equal reward for less effort" excuse is overly simplistic and overlooks much of the rationales behind the migration towards 10s. Its snappy, and it makes 25s feel good about themselves because it tells them they are players who are good enough to stay 25s, but ultimately, its an excuse and rationale that does more harm to the cause of saving 25s than good.

It, however, happens to be true. That might be inconveniently "snappy" for you, but that doesn't change anything.

Depends. If a few hundred can't raid 25s but thousands can raid 10s then overall whereas before it was a case of a few hundred can raids the 25s they wanted, accompanied by thousands who were dragged into 25s then overall...it hasn't failed.

Nobody was dragged into 25s, ever. In TBC you had Kara and ZA for people that just wanted to do 10s. In WotLK you had 10 man versions of every raid. People clearly didn't think 10s were such a great thing, otherwise we would've seen the large exodus from 25s in WotLK. I know many, many people that are forced into 10 mans now, you keep ignoring that fact.

I already answered that question. Perhaps you should read my post that you quoted again. Then read it again until you understand exactly what I'm saying.

25-man raid guilds don't want the game to revolve around their system. They want the two systems to be equal. Perhaps not all of them do, but the ones with any form of rational thought process do. Where's your rational thought process, then? You're the one who only wants one system to be "superior", it just happens to be YOUR system. I don't recall at any point stating I want my preferred system to be "superior". I want it to be equal. There is a major difference between what you want (the sun to revolve around you and your little world) and what I want (two suns revolving around two worlds).

25 and 10 are equal - in terms of "in game" difficulty.

25 and 10 can never be equal in terms of non game difficulty - but that's not something blizzard can fix, nor is the non game difficulty element actually fixed by upping the rewards if they remain at equal difficulty. 25 man still remains a pain in the arse to organise, its just that with a higher ilvl, more people will grit their teeth and do the extra bit of organising 25 requires.

What's the point in that? Wheres the fun?

You might as well make logging in a boring but tricky mini game or something for all it adds to the playing experience.

Raiding has always been a minority interest in the game. Always. Players didn't want the hassle of organising, running , scheduling, dealing with guild drama and so on. Today? Today players have the option of LFR and I'd bet a LOT of players who used to raid now do LFR instead. The format a certain group of players don't see as real raiding.

What you want to say is that the players interested in taking part in organised raiding had decreased,and /or been split between various modes.

EJL

^This is the answer to saving 25s. LFR is popular because people can do it whenever they have time for it.

Now, if you took the LFR model, of ALLOWING people to raid current content cross realms, and put that as a perm option. ALSO, taking the GW2 model, of being in the same guild but not on same server, this would solve ALL the 25m raid issues and possibly save them. They already opened up CRZ, which is the same thing, except for Pandaria. I dont think it would be that hard to do on Blizzard's part.

They have the model already in place, just need to figure out how to make people belong in the same guilds, cross server. Blizzard give ANet a call if youre confused. You borrow everything else from them, etc.....jumping puzzles coming in 5.2

And above all else....This would solve the problems of DYING servers.
Main city hubs for all servers.
One Auction House.
One BMAH.
This would change the economy for sure, but just like in real life. People will adjust.

If all else fails, then i agree with universal raid, for everyone. Do it for last tier of Expac. Just like how they did it with Talent tree and glyphs, and whatnots.

lola, this is somewhat off topic obviously, but Stone Guard 25 is basically Halfus heroic. Stone Guard 10 is Halfus normal. Both are easy, but you'd be fooling yourself to think that 10-man is harder considering you're guaranteed to remove one mechanic every week.

One random mechanic, indeed. I find it easier to have a fight exactly the same every week, mechanic-wise. The first time I did Halfus 25m as disc it was plain lol.

As far as Will goes, the RoF usage simply proves that Will 25 is harder.

No, it doesn't. It suggests (if we assume Blizzard balance is correct here) that 25m was too easy, and is now put in balance. Because RoF itself was nerfed for this very reason (this symptom).

They're not nerfing spells for 10-man use, now are they (well, maybe Discipline priest, but that's another story entirely).

Actually, disc in 25m is (in 5.0/5.1) much more OP than 10m... in 10m the rotation is more diverse. The nerf on disc will affect 25m more than 10m, and bring them more in line.

I will not argue on Gara'jal. It is definitely more challenging on 10-man.

So, should Gara Jal provide better gear in 10m? No! Sometimes a fight is harder in 10m, sometimes in 25m. We just gotta accept that. Problem with Gara Jal is though, it was a lot harder in 10m (due to burst RNG) and this tampered with progress in 10m because 25m simply gets way easier gear (also if they run 10m groups aside from that; which is an actual benefit a hardcore 25m guild has: much more resources).

I don't know how you judge difficulty, but I'm guessing it's simply based off of your clear "10-man only" biases and not on actual logic.

Not at all, it is based on various research which I did back when I was still playing. When you're playing heroic content you're looking for tactics tricks and such. That's also when you figure out certain stuff becomes trivial on bosses, tricks (which are nearly exploits), etc.

I won't state that some fights aren't harder on 10-man, they are. Usually the "gear checks" (ala Garalon).

Good, you see, this is something the average 25m zealot in this topic is unable to admit. They're unable to quote such and say "you have a point there" instead they must reply with their own android version of the story. And you can see in the 2nd part of this post I agree the bias is towards 25m (in the advantage of 10m) in the previous 2 tiers with FL due to positional aspect in the advantage of 10m.

However, there are nine encounters that require spacing for a mechanic and situational awareness, minimum. Those nine are definitely more challenging on 25-man.

Which ones?

As long as encounters continue to be designed in that manner (which they need to be, to be honest, in order to provide challenge to raiders in today's gaming world, and I am not complaining about that), then 25's will, more often than not, be more difficult overall.

Depends. For melee, it is often unfriendly, and not fun. I want to see more ranged-unfriendly mechanics (and I am playing a ranged and my alts are mostly ranged too). 10m traditionally has a bias towards ranged.

Originally Posted by Travex

^ What she said

Parrot. If you have nothing to contribute, be silent.

Originally Posted by Fenixdown

You still fail to understand exactly why people don't do 25-mans. It's not for challenge, it's for ease. It's not for less reward, it's for equal. Effort + challenge = reward is the argument we, as people who prefer 25-man to 10-man, are making. The equations are not equal, 10's is drastically superior in this equation. THAT is why people do them at such an incredibly alarming rate.

How do you solve this equation problem? Make the equation equate to the same number. In other words, if 25's provide more challenge (they do) and more effort (they do) they should have GREATER reward (they DON'T).

However, like lola, you live in the "I like 10's so everyone else should just conform to my system" world. Most of us in this thread with the counterarguments to that point (I will not say all, yes some people have come up with some hair-brained ideas) have tried to tell you time and again that we're not thinking in the context of attempting to phase 10-mans out. That is not what we want. What we WANT is for both systems to be equal to what they provide.

Your ideas are laughable, as well. If we wanted LFR difficulty, we wouldn't even be in guilds. We'd just do LFR. I still prefer to have some challenge (which is why I don't prefer 10-mans, either).

Your arguments are simply to make 25-man raiding a joke, not to make it more popular than it currently is. Because you want your system to be the "more prestigious". Which, even with it's much stronger popularity due to it's equal reward for less effort and less challenge, it's still viewed upon by many as "inferior". Which the way it's currently designed, it is. It should be appropriately designed to be exactly what it is : easier raiding style, easier organization, and lower reward. Plain and simple.

Again, you don't play harder difficulties just to get the same pat on the back you did for playing the game on easier difficulties. If you went through Nightmare on something like D1 or D2 and still only got the same gear to drop that you were vendoring in Normal, would you bother playing it? No. So, how is it that doesn't work there, but the same design principal works in WoW? Oh, that's right. Because you want the easier path to be the viable one, and the harder path to be simply phased out.

We don't want that. We want 10's to be what 10's should be, and 25's to be what 25's should be. Then people make the choice of what they WANT to do. Nobody would be forced. Do you play for the higher incentives of better gear and prestige, or do you play simply to clear the content at a quicker pace with less resistance and effort? The choice would then be everyone's to make. Right now, there's no choice.

We want options. You just want your system to be the only one that exists. So, who's the one that's arguing about "the whole rest of the game to revolve around them like a pre-capernicus sun" here, again? It's certainly not I. It sounds much more like you.

Propaganda plain 'n simple. The very first post I made in this very thread!! Was saying 1) 15m is the best solution to the problem 2) this discussion has been rehashed countless of times. This is the most harmonious concession to both groups.

Another point I agree with, is that there is more delegation for 25m. Read all my posts here, I never denied at all, that there is more delegation in 25m. In fact, I have supported that argument. What I do NOT support is that 10m has no delegation at all. This is the bifurcation of the 25m zealot. Also, from this point, I support the notion of giving the raid leader and officers less burden. So for example the feast and flask for 25m is something I support. However a lot of the solutions I read also give those who are getting carried or who "DPS and just do their job" as well as those healers (which is easier in 25m) rewards. No, that I don't support.

(Although for me, the 2nd concession is furthermore supports the 1st one instead of that 25m must be buffed because for me it supports the notion 25m is unviable. However, lets ignore the 15m alternative for now.)

So that is two points where I already did a concession.

Then we have people say 25m cost so much more effort (only for those part of the delegation) and then we have some who think 25m is inherently harder than 10m. I don't believe this is true (and we had various solid examples it indeed is not true, which, for the record, doesn't mean the opposite is either true or suggested either; that's just bifurcation), but if you do want to prove that you'd need an advanced analysis for that. The burden of proof lies in your hands here, Felixdawn. Without such data, I am totally willing to accept though that 25m is roughly a little bit harder than 10m. What I am not going to accept however, is again this silly bifurcation from 25m zealots, that 25m is always, by definition, harder. Bollocks, plain and simple. There's countless of examples which suggest otherwise.

But lets assume for the moment this is completely true beyond the shed of a doubt! Then the logical response is to nerf 25m, so that the reward from it is easier gained. That's the third point I make a concession. If you read the replies from Injin and the like, they never said 25m should be replaced by LFR; they said LFR is an easy version of 25m. And it is. Just like LFD N is an easy version of LFD HC, and LFD HC is an easy version of Challenge Mode Dungeons. So what we proposed was to nerf 25m, so that the difficulty (which IMO is roughly equal, but slightly in favor of 10m) becomes more fair.

...but it gets funnier. You don't want that!! You wanna feel like a special snowflake. You want additional rewards so you can feel c00l in Org and SW running around in your unique 25m mount with your unique 25m title and -as some suggested- you want more or better drops (which you already get, and which are less wasted in 25m) so you can pwn more outside of your raid. What for exactly? Why not just increase your performance in the raid? And how do we do that? We.... yes, drumroll, nerf the content. Bravo! Was it that hard to grasp?

My fourth concession is this one: if 25m is, without a shed of a doubt harder and therefore more rewarding, you already receive more reward from it regardless of 10m. Why? Dopamine. You realize you just did the most amazing art in the world, with all those 10m lollers playing their laughable difficulty. You know it, what more do you need? You know all these people who drive in Ferrari's and have to show it off to others? If they were truly happy with their Ferrari they didn't have to show it off to others. Apparently those who play 25m and complain here about the lack of rewards don't get reward from 25m anymore. Perhaps a time for a fresh breeze in your life, and quit?

4 concessions of mine towards your opinion. You provide none. Zilch. And I'm the one being unreasonable in this discussion? I provided various options for dialogue.

Depends. If a few hundred can't raid 25s but thousands can raid 10s then overall whereas before it was a case of a few hundred can raids the 25s they wanted, accompanied by thousands who were dragged into 25s then overall...it hasn't failed.

Unfortunatly the amount of people doing normal/heroic raiding has decreased significantly from wrath to now. So those who used to go into 25s well they are not going into 10s which is what you imply. They do not go at all.

Basicly what you said the new system is good because it excludes more from doing normal social raiding.

The cause that 25 man guilds died was not that people decided to act and move to start new 10 mans. 25 mans failed because a) the recruit pool dried up when the un-guilded players realized they would get their loot faster if they joined a 10 man instead of a 25 man, and b) because in every guild there was that group of people that wanted to kick out "bads" and transform into 10 man for faster progress, more loot and higher ranks and c) old core raiders got bored with the game (no progress model, recycled shitty content).

Seriously? You know of no guild in the entire world where a clique of players just upped and left to form their own guild?

It, however, happens to be true. That might be inconveniently "snappy" for you, but that doesn't change anything.

No, its not true. You simply stting it is true does not make it so. You believe it to be true. It's snappy and quick to ream off, but what it misses is every single other reason why players choose 10s. And there are a lot of them. 10s simply require less logistic effort from players. There is less of a recruiting issue. There are less problems with scheduling. Noshows are relatively easy to compensate for. And so on. And if you were speaking of that effort - I'd agree with you. Less effort to find a raid, less effort to join, less time spent recruiting.

Nobody was dragged into 25s, ever. In TBC you had Kara and ZA for people that just wanted to do 10s. In WotLK you had 10 man versions of every raid. People clearly didn't think 10s were such a great thing, otherwise we would've seen the large exodus from 25s in WotLK. I know many, many people that are forced into 10 mans now, you keep ignoring that fact.

People were dragged into 25s for the same reason 25s aren't popular now. Gear. With gear, everyone and their dog flocked to the format.W ithout out, forecd to stand on its merits without any incentive for players to join in? Players ran from it in droves.

People prefer 10s because it easier and takes less effort and work to find a raid group that suits you and your schedule.
People prefer 10s because its faster to get going and there is less down time due to loot distribution, repalcing no-shows, loot/guild drama and so on.
The hardcore progression minded group likes 10s because its far easier to skew the system to favor the group they are in.

Which of these are actually isues Blizzard should address with a high priority? None of them.

Basically you are saying that 10 man is superior to all par the rewards which are the same.
Which is the definition of what we say all along, that there is no choice :P
On the contrary you were saying there is.
Maybe somebody should teach you the meaning of the terms "viable" and "realistic".
You re in love with a system that "suposingly" is giving people choice, but in fact it isnt, because according to your own words
1)It is easier and takes less efford to find a group that suits you and your schedule.
2) It is faster to get going and with less downtime.
3) It has less guild and loot drama
4)It is easier to skew the system to favor the group they are in.

Those are your words, and those are not even half the benefits/advandages a 10 man has.
Respectively, the "choice" is to ignore them all and be the masochist that will do 25s :P

The above advandages have nothing to do with the feeling once both groups get going. Some people prefer 25's feeling, but obviously to get there you have to deal with infinetely more problems and surpass infinately more obstacles.
In other words you need more efford.
Efford that is reflected nowhere, mounts, loot, achievements are all the same.
So...people that prefer 25s feeling wont go for it because it is a very hard task, that system is making it even tougher by discouraging like minded people to go for 25s giving no incentive and no recognition for additional efford.
There are achievements for the amount of fishes you have cought in this bloody game!
Yet not a single one for defeating an encounter in 25!

Originally Posted by Talen

You know what the easiest path for many of these players would have been? To stay where they were in a 25 man group where someone else did the work. Instead, they decided to act, to move, to go to the effort and bother of setting up a new guild and raid group, giving up their guild perks and starting from scratch in order to face content that provided a very similar challenge in most cases. These groups took on real world effort and often spent real life money to move to 10s. And this wasn't restricted to just the hardcore who might care about small margins of efficiency.

No it wouldnt. And your previous paragraph displays with the most vivid colours why it wouldnt be clueless man.
Even if you stay at your previous team, the 10 more skilled people of that team, benefit infinately by downsizing!
In that case, either you are in the best 10 and get the benefits or your are not and you re excluded from raiding!

In any case you either raid 10 or not raid at ALL!!!
Clueless is clueless....

Originally Posted by Talen

Players moved to 10s and took on the extar work involved in running a guild because it gave most of them content that was similarly as chellenging, gave them equal rewards but offered them something 25s didn't. Are all those who claim that they can't run 25s on their PCs lying? Are all those who claim they simply prefer the feeling of having a bigger imapct mistaken? Does the opinion of those who say they simply like being able to see what happens on screen irrelevant? Those players who simply want to run content with their friends - are they fiends in human guise for not wanting to play with people they don't are about?

Very few took over extra work mr genious vs those that stopped work and as a result fewer than 60& the amount of ICC teams are raiding!
The rest are words of a politician.
Did anybody in his sane mind said the NOBODY prefers 10 over 25?Why putting words in people mouths then?
Like a phoney lower trying to bring tears to the jewery. Shame on you.

Originally Posted by Talen

The "players play 10s because it offers equal reward for less effort" excuse is overly simplistic and overlooks much of the rationales behind the migration towards 10s. Its snappy, and it makes 25s feel good about themselves because it tells them they are players who are good enough to stay 25s, but ultimately, its an excuse and rationale that does more harm to the cause of saving 25s than good.

It is not over simplistic. Check again the very first paragraph of this very post you wrote. If your catchy phrase had an "All players" as start, it would be a dangerous generalization and a lie. It doesnt so it is correct.

Originally Posted by Talen

Depends. If a few hundred can't raid 25s but thousands can raid 10s then overall whereas before it was a case of a few hundred can raids the 25s they wanted, accompanied by thousands who were dragged into 25s then overall...it hasn't failed.

EJL

"If"?
What "if" not?
Because for few thousands that geniunly enjoy 10 man raiding today several HUNDRED THOUSANDS stopped raiding period!
Since THAT is the case, proven by numbers YOUR PRECIOUS RAIDING MODEL HAS FAILED!!!

Basically you are saying that 10 man is superior to all par the rewards which are the same.

And the actual raid which is also the same. The main difference, the big difference, the part wheere msot of the propbelsmw ith 25s lies...is with what seems to collectively known as logistics. The organising and running of a guild and raid.

It is less effort for a player to find a 10 man guild - because there are more of them. It is easier to find a raid thats uits your schedule - because there are more of them. It is easier to kick a problem player - because there are more replacements just waiting. It is easier to recruit...because the glut of players that used to be there at 25, the glut that made 25s easy to recruit for and run, is now clamouring to join 10s.

But the actual raid? That requires the same effort from most players.

Those are your words, and those are not even half the benefits/advandages a 10 man has.

No, they aren't. 10s have a lot of good points. They are easy to join and organise. They provide players with the same challenge, prestige, gear and rewards. Its easy to raid to your own schedule and with your own friends.

The question is....why do you object to them? Because they stop you doing the format you choose because of the benefits that you prefer? Yes....palyers like those advantages they get in 10s. But you somehow think it wrong that they do so, that they should base their choice solely on which format they prefer the feel of.

In other words you need more efford.

Logistical effort. As I've said for the past couple of years.

Efford that is reflected nowhere, mounts, loot, achievements are all the same.

For very good reasons. Its effort that is borne mainly by very few players out of the 25 man raiding team, and extra rewards would heavily undermine the current raid model. There's a little room to play with wrt drop chances and numbers, but not much. Sure, palyers ghave to put more effort into joining....but not in playing.

There are achievements for the amount of fishes you have cought in this bloody game!
Yet not a single one for defeating an encounter in 25!

Yes. And this is, in many ways, a very minor issue. Why SHOULD there be a separate achievment for 25s? All you are going to achieve is resentment at forcing some players to do both, to runa 10 man main and a 25 man main. Why? Because 25 players requires the group to use a different set of tactics. So does altering your raid make up or running with PUGs or gearing up but theres never any call for those successes to be recognised with Achievements.

It's not a major issue whether 25s get their own Achievement or not....but the current system simply recognises that you defeated a certain challenge. Defeat Boss X at a certain difficulty. Which is what Achievement have always done.

No it wouldnt. And your previous paragraph displays with the most vivid colours why it wouldnt be clueless man.
Even if you stay at your previous team, the 10 more skilled people of that team, benefit infinately by downsizing!
In that case, either you are in the best 10 and get the benefits or your are not and you re excluded from raiding!

And this is bad because.....because players aren't basing their decision purely on format? But basing their decision on where to get the best gear, the TBC/LK situation, was acceptable even though format there was also an uncommon reason to pick a format?

Very few took over extra work mr genious vs those that stopped work and as a result fewer than 60& the amount of ICC teams are raiding!

This argument will be valid when you come up with a good reason why LFR should not be considered raiding. Until then, I cannot tell you how childish its makes these debates look to have one party unilatreally decide that Thiose millions of players over there don't raid because they do LFR. At the very least, present your argument with the qualifiers of normal and heroic raiders.

Even then, this argument is irrelevant. It has nothing to do with the raid model. Raiding - hardcore raiding as you define it anyway - has ALWAYS been a minority interest. It has never been a major feature for most players. Why? Because most players didn't want the hassle that comes with it. You are arguing that a minority interest has become a minority interest and that this somehow proves something about the existing raid model.

Did anybody in his sane mind said the NOBODY prefers 10 over 25?

The usual argument by advocates for 25s reads "Noone likes 10s, they just do it because its easy".

And several MILLION took it up via LFR. Including many of those "several HUNDRED THOUSANDS" you claim stopped raiding.

This is a game. People play it to get enjoyment. It is not unsurprising that large numbers of players drop out of Heroic and Normal raiding to join LFR because doing so gives them EVERYTHING they likely want from the game and removes most if not all of the headaches and work.

The same argument works for the 10 vs 25. Players run from the drudgery and work for the fun.

Overall, the goal here is simple.

Players should run the format they prefer.

The difference between us is simple - I don't have much of an issue with player preferring 10s because its more convenient, easier to schedule, allows them to raid, lets them play with friends or whatever. Players make their own chocie, based on their own needs, their own desires, based on what they wnat from the game. Anything they can get in one format, they can get in the other so the choice really is down to whichever suits them best.

The problem I have here is simple - because so many players choose to go to 10s, the pool of those available for 25s is much reduced. And the end result is fewer raids and a lot of players who cannot do their format of choice. The solution? Expand the raiding pool. But - short of allowing Cross Realm raiding/guilds - any incetives good enough to draw players to 25s will kill 10s.

Not a good solution.

You, however, don't seem to like all that. Having players choose their format based on things like convenience is somehow, for some reason, wrong. And I don't get that attitude.

Originally Posted by Hakto

Speaking from our experience, we are seeing a resurgence in people interested in 25 man raiding.

The usual argument by advocates for 25s reads "Noone likes 10s, they just do it because its easy".

No - that is not the argument by 25s advocates.

NOBODY ever wrote the above line of "nobody likes 10s..." that's just your mind attempting to re-write the logic into something insulting.

25s advocates simply say "They just do it because it's easier" - and they're right. They NEVER said they don't enjoy it. In fact, I'm sure the majority of people who do play 10s do enjoy it simply BECAUSE it's easier both to manage and to execute the fights themselves. :P

NOBODY ever wrote the above line of "nobody likes 10s..." that's just your mind attempting to re-write the logic into something insulting.

25s advocates simply say "They just do it because it's easier" - and they're right. They NEVER said they don't enjoy it. In fact, I'm sure the majority of people who do play 10s do enjoy it simply BECAUSE it's easier both to manage and to execute the fights themselves. :P

I've thought of a great way to get 25 man raids going. People who want 25 man raids to happen (but are too lazy to organise them) can pay G to other players to entice them to raid lead 25's.

No, its not true. You simply stting it is true does not make it so. You believe it to be true. It's snappy and quick to ream off, but what it misses is every single other reason why players choose 10s. And there are a lot of them. 10s simply require less logistic effort from players. There is less of a recruiting issue. There are less problems with scheduling. Noshows are relatively easy to compensate for. And so on. And if you were speaking of that effort - I'd agree with you. Less effort to find a raid, less effort to join, less time spent recruiting.

That one aspect, the other aspect is the higher personal skill and performance requirement in 25s. This is why you see guilds shoot up in progress when they go from 25 to 10 with the same skill distribution in their group. It's just easier and faster to clear 10 mans for a whole variety of reasons.

People were dragged into 25s for the same reason 25s aren't popular now. Gear. With gear, everyone and their dog flocked to the format.W ithout out, forecd to stand on its merits without any incentive for players to join in? Players ran from it in droves.

You have not explained why now people go to 10 mans because they like 10 mans, and when people went to 25 mans they went because they were forced by gear. If I was to rejoin the game and wanted the gear as fast as possible, I would go to 10 mans because in the current system that's how you get the gear fastest and easiest. This is why your argument is not self-consistent.

That one aspect, the other aspect is the higher personal skill and performance requirement in 25s.

Once again, that's a tuning issue and has nothing whatsoever to do with the format being run.

This is why you see guilds shoot up in progress when they go from 25 to 10 with the same skill distribution in their group. It's just easier and faster to clear 10 mans for a whole variety of reasons.

If you take the fastest 25 100 metre runners in the world and then reduce them down to the fastest 10, their average speed goes up.

You have not explained why now people go to 10 mans because they like 10 mans, and when people went to 25 mans they went because they were forced by gear. If I was to rejoin the game and wanted the gear as fast as possible, I would go to 10 mans because in the current system that's how you get the gear fastest and easiest. This is why your argument is not self-consistent.

People raid because they want better gear. 10 mans let them get that gear without massive non game related hurdles.

This is why 10 man is better than 25 for most players and why they prefer it.

Once again, that's a tuning issue and has nothing whatsoever to do with the format being run.

It's not a tuning issue. It's a complexity issue. More people, more things going on, will lead to a more complex environment that requires more personal skill and performance. Tuning is largely irrelevant. You can tune 10 mans to take on average the same number of wipes to kill as an equivalently skilled 25 man group. But you could also do that for 5 mans or even solo content. Of course, Blizzard is not tuning raids that way, and instead what you see is that the equivalently skilled 10 man group will kill far more content far faster and with far fewer wipes -- when they're actually inside the raid instance.

If you take the fastest 25 100 metre runners in the world and then reduce them down to the fastest 10, their average speed goes up.

You think when scaling down you get to pick your best players? You can't. Not all your best players want to raid 10 mans, not all of them want to join your 10 man, not all of them want to continue playing and not all of them have the required class ready and geared. This is exactly what happened when my 25 man scaled down. We didn't get the 10 best players, we got a couple of the best, couple of the average and couple below the average. Yet our progress shot up, oneshotting the boss we were working on in 25 at the time, for example.

People raid because they want better gear. 10 mans let them get that gear without massive non game related hurdles.

It's all game related. It's all relevant. Otherwise they might as well give the same rewards for solo content since afterall you're still doing the same thing while soloing.

This is why 10 man is better than 25 for most players and why they prefer it.

It's not "better", it's just the easier and faster way to the same rewards. People don't like feeling like idiots so they won't take the harder path that requires more skill and performance in every aspect if it only grants the same rewards. That's what games are all about, figuring out the easiest path to the rewards. THAT is why 25 mans are dead. Due to the broken raid model.

It's not a tuning issue. It's a complexity issue. More people, more things going on, will lead to a more complex environment that requires more personal skill and performance. Tuning is largely irrelevant. You can tune 10 mans to take on average the same number of wipes to kill as an equivalently skilled 25 man group. But you could also do that for 5 mans or even solo content. Of course, Blizzard is not tuning raids that way, and instead what you see is that the equivalently skilled 10 man group will kill far more content far faster and with far fewer wipes -- when they're actually inside the raid instance.

If how difficult 25 man is isn't a tuning issue - how come LFR is a piece of piss, then, hmm?

You think when scaling down you get to pick your best players? You can't. Not all your best players want to raid 10 mans, not all of them want to join your 10 man, not all of them want to continue playing and not all of them have the required class ready and geared. This is exactly what happened when my 25 man scaled down. We didn't get the 10 best players, we got a couple of the best, couple of the average and couple below the average. Yet our progress shot up, oneshotting the boss we were working on in 25 at the time, for example.

Ok, fair enough, I seriously doubt your experience of not having the best 10 raiders is representative, however.

It's all game related. It's all relevant. Otherwise they might as well give the same rewards for solo content since afterall you're still doing the same thing while soloing.

They do!

You can solo your way to raid equivalent gear.

It's not "better", it's just the easier and faster way to the same rewards. People don't like feeling like idiots so they won't take the harder path that requires more skill and performance in every aspect if it only grants the same rewards. That's what games are all about, figuring out the easiest path to the rewards. THAT is why 25 mans are dead. Due to the broken raid model.

If people want easier and faster then that IS better for them.

25 mans are dead because they are a pain in the arse due to non game related issues. LFR is as busy as a dead dog on an anthill, because those issues aren't present.

apparently so is reading... that system was killing wow, it caused players to burn out on the game a hell lot faster, take off those nostalgic shades, they are not gonna go back to that fail system. i'll answer your question, what killed 25man raiding?, the fact that the majority don't care for 25man or they would be doing it.

Last time I checked the peak of wow was in WotLK with 12+mil subscribers. After the changes made to raids in Cataclysm the subscriber numbers just kept going down, so stop with the nonsense. And no, I don't believe in coincidences.

If how difficult 25 man is isn't a tuning issue - how come LFR is a piece of piss, then, hmm?

You've missed the whole point. Try reading again what I wrote.

Ok, fair enough, I seriously doubt your experience of not having the best 10 raiders is representative, however.

Why? Because you think people are sheep that you can just do whatever you want with? I outlined the exact reasons why you don't get to pick the best players, those reasons are not in any way unique to my guild. You're going to need a stronger argument than "I don't think so".

25 mans are dead because they are a pain in the arse due to non game related issues.

Nope. They are dead for the reasons I explained. Your "non game related issues" is just a strawman. Everything is game related when you are playing a game. Building a guild is game related, leading a raid is game related, building your roster and motivating your players is game related. Just like the higher personal skill and performance requirement in 25 mans in game related.

And you keep dodging the point where a 10 man with equivalent skill distribution had much faster progress in 10 mans, while actually in the instance, than 25 man did. It happens all the time and shows the encounters are not tuned to take the same number of wipes on 10 and 25 for an equivalently skilled raid group (10s are much easier), and on top of that you get all kinds of further complexity for actually fielding the 25 man team in the first place. This means the rewards for 25s must be significantly increased in order to give people a fair choice between the raid sizes.

Nope. LFR (not raiding), easy way to get free loot. 25 man, much more difficult way to get the same rewards as 10 man. That's why 25s are dying, because the raid model is broken and gives a much superior effort/reward for 10s.