The size of the oven shouldn't make a difference.I wasn't aware of the color blindness factor involving black or white ( I'm not as smart as you)?

So if you have one oven with 27 cubic feet heated by a 8200 BTU/h source and another oven with 21 cubic feet heated by the same source, you think the temperatures are going to be the same? Also if someone can't see yellow or orange, knowing to look for white isn't going to help them much as the spectrum will be blurred in that region.

The thing with these guns is you can point it near the top of your dome and get a high reading from the flame / heat or near the coals and your oven actually may still not be ready for pizza. [...] There are too many different temps. going on at one time in different spots.

How about providing a temperature where the pizza actually goes instead of wildly taking temperatures all over the oven? Put a pizza stone in the oven where you would normally have it and measure the temperature of the stone. Or if you prefer, since you know about how long a pizza should bake for in a wood fire oven, measure the delta (change) in temperature of a metal pan @1 min, @2 min, @3 min, etc. Just be sure it's a common pan so that anyone else can use the same pan for accuracy. This will give information of not only how hot things are on the inside surface of your oven, but also of how much mass-energy there is for cooking a pizza after the first minute.

Maybe when you get a Tea break this morning you can whip up a tool so we can put in all the different variables and come up with an acceptable answer

Or maybe I will just use a thermometer and give people a temperature. You said, "Point taken" but given this sentence you don't seem to understand my point. I took issue with your statement that a thermometer was a crutch. If I designed an application that accepted all those variables and gave you a result, it would just be another crutch IYO.

So if you have one oven with 27 cubic feet heated by a 8200 BTU/h source and another oven with 21 cubic feet heated by the same source, you think the temperatures are going to be the same? Also if someone can't see yellow or orange, knowing to look for white isn't going to help them much as the spectrum will be blurred in that region.

How about providing a temperature where the pizza actually goes instead of wildly taking temperatures all over the oven? Put a pizza stone in the oven where you would normally have it and measure the temperature of the stone. Or if you prefer, since you know about how long a pizza should bake for in a wood fire oven, measure the delta (change) in temperature of a metal pan @1 min, @2 min, @3 min, etc. Just be sure it's a common pan so that anyone else can use the same pan for accuracy. This will give information of not only how hot things are on the inside surface of your oven, but also of how much mass-energy there is for cooking a pizza after the first minute.

Or maybe I will just use a thermometer and give people a temperature. You said, "Point taken" but given this sentence you don't seem to understand my point. I took issue with your statement that a thermometer was a crutch. If I designed an application that accepted all those variables and gave you a result, it would just be another crutch IYO.

November,

Without entering into the depth of the discussion, I would like to address the following:

While the use of measuring equipment can have some "indicative" purposes in dough making, considering all the variables etc, having used many different types of wood ovens, I have to tell you that the same doesn't apply to Wood Fired Oven. Measuring the temperature won't convert in the same bake as well as there at the least three heat factors (Direct, Radiant and "wave"-not sure of the english word) that cannot be all measured (outside a test lab and with test equipment properly placed).

Cooking in the wood oven is one of the most "artisanal" job in the pizza wolrd and each "fornaio" shoul know HIS oven.

When I work on consultancy I train on how to recognise the optimum temperature, laser gun aside...

I can still remember one guy telling me that his oven was reaching the same temperature he had measured in Naples on a pizzeria oven's cooking floor: His oven still took 2.5 minutes to bake a pizza, the one in Naples took just under 60 seconds....

May I had that Neapolitan pizzamakers used something very similar to autholyse to help gluten development much earlier then Calvel ever published a book.

Marco,

That is very interesting. As you may know, Professor Calvel was known for his work with artisanal European breads and it was in this context, not pizza dough making, that he came up with the idea for the autolyse. In the example you gave, did the Italian pizza makers combine only the flour and the water, that is, without salt or yeast? I haven't read Professor Calvel's book in which he describes the autolyse process but I believe he sought to have a neutral environment for the hydration of the flour so he left out the yeast (and the salt also, for other reasons). I believe he later came to accept the idea of adding a natural preferment and even a dry yeast on the premise that they wouldn't provide much, if any, acidification of the dough during the autolyse rest period.

Here's all the depth of the discussion you need to know. One person asks for an ideal temperature, and another person gives an implicatively elitist response. As if it were beneath one to use a thermometer. How can a person "know" their oven as you put it, without knowing the temperature in the baking region? That's "feeling" not knowing. All the "heat factors" you mentioned certainly contribute to the temperature of a surface, but that doesn't mean you can't measure the temperature. Using burning wood only changes the convection aspect of baking. Radiant and conduction are relatively the same as a non-wood-burning oven. I guarantee you that if you take the metal pan test in two ovens and the results are identical, so will the baking. Just be sure to use dark metal pans so that the radiant heat is absorbed.

"When I work on consultancy I train on how to recognise the optimum temperature, laser gun aside"

It's inaccurate to use the phrase "optimum temperature" when a temperature is not actually taken. It's all relative without a thermometer. That's fine once you know what your particular oven "looks and feels" like at the temperature you want it, but you first have to know it's at that temperature.

So if you have one oven with 27 cubic feet heated by a 8200 BTU/h source and another oven with 21 cubic feet heated by the same source, you think the temperatures are going to be the same? Also if someone can't see yellow or orange, knowing to look for white isn't going to help them much as the spectrum will be blurred in that region.

Haven't got a clue?Maybe you can answer Arthur's question better?

Quote

How about providing a temperature where the pizza actually goes instead of wildly taking temperatures all over the oven? Put a pizza stone in the oven where you would normally have it and measure the temperature of the stone. Or if you prefer, since you know about how long a pizza should bake for in a wood fire oven, measure the delta (change) in temperature of a metal pan @1 min, @2 min, @3 min, etc. Just be sure it's a common pan so that anyone else can use the same pan for accuracy. This will give information of not only how hot things are on the inside surface of your oven, but also of how much mass-energy there is for cooking a pizza after the first minute.

Quote

I don't need to, as i'm familiar with my oven . What good would that do anyone else anyway as my oven and it's performance wil have it's own set of characteristics and variables (some) of which are controlled by me?The Pizza is placed at different points for different reasons and for varying results during cooking

Quote

Or maybe I will just use a thermometer and give people a temperature. You said, "Point taken" but given this sentence you don't seem to understand my point. I took issue with your statement that a thermometer was a crutch. If I designed an application that accepted all those variables and gave you a result, it would just be another crutch IYO.

Quote

Thanks. Arthur (as others ) will be pleased to get a final and educated decision on this,instead of my half assed input.You know it's supposed to be 60 degrees outside today,but i'm bloody freezing.I'm not going to turn the heat on though.........

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One person asks for an ideal temperature, and another person gives an implicatively elitist response. As if it were beneath one to use a thermometer.

You obviously didn't read my post too well.I did say that I use a thermometer,in numerous other posts I have talked about finished dough,OTH,water,flour temperatures etc and have advocated the importance I beleive.I would agree to some that THAT may sound elitist,but so be it.I'm not getting into a pissing contest with a scientist. It's Pizza.

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If you're looking for a date... go to the Supermarket.If you're looking for a wife....go to the Farmers market

Here's all the depth of the discussion you need to know. One person asks for an ideal temperature, and another person gives an implicatively elitist response. As if it were beneath one to use a thermometer. How can a person "know" their oven as you put it, without knowing the temperature in the baking region? That's "feeling" not knowing. All the "heat factors" you mentioned certainly contribute to the temperature of a surface, but that doesn't mean you can't measure the temperature. Using burning wood only changes the convection aspect of baking. Radiant and conduction are relatively the same as a non-wood-burning oven. I guarantee you that if you take the metal pan test in two ovens and the results are identical, so will the baking. Just be sure to use dark metal pans so that the radiant heat is absorbed.

"When I work on consultancy I train on how to recognise the optimum temperature, laser gun aside"

It's inaccurate to use the phrase "optimum temperature" when a temperature is not actually taken. It's all relative without a thermometer. That's fine once you know what your particular oven "looks and feels" like at the temperature you want it, but you first have to know it's at that temperature.

- red.november

Ok, apologies,

I should not have used "optimum temperature" and instead use optimum baking environment.

YOU DO NOT NEED TO KNOW THE TEMPERATURE! You learn how to recognise the optimum baking environment. People have been using similar wood ovens to todays ones for more then 2000 years and have all done so without knowing the temperatures. How? Out of tradition and passed on knowledge. Believe it or not is the only way for certain type of jobs.

November, you need to undertsand the limitation of learning behind a keyboard and/or book an artisan job. I won't discuss the heat distribuition issue because I could only properly do so in front of two different wood ovens, e.g a Neapolitan One and Another type one, where I could easily show you that the two floor at the same temperature will cook in two different way/time.

That is very interesting. As you may know, Professor Calvel was known for his work with artisanal European breads and it was in this context, not pizza dough making, that he came up with the idea for the autolyse. In the example you gave, did the Italian pizza makers combine only the flour and the water, that is, without salt or yeast? I haven't read Professor Calvel's book in which he describes the autolyse process but I believe he sought to have a neutral environment for the hydration of the flour so he left out the yeast (and the salt also, for other reasons). I believe he later came to accept the idea of adding a natural preferment and even a dry yeast on the premise that they wouldn't provide much, if any, acidification of the dough during the autolyse rest period.

Peter

Peter,

Probably is better to say that Calvel's work related to French bread, possibly some Austrian/German ones, but European is a bit overstading. In the South of Italy only there is a whole tradition that differ enourmosly from the north and I have noticed the same in Portugal.

Anyway, it was similar to Calvel's autolyse, not the same, but they also knew approximatelly the time needed for this to be benificial. Other factors would not have an impact for this due to quantities and time.

I suspect that the term "European" is too broad but that is how his work has been described in the literature that I was able to locate searching the internet. I did not do independent research on this point and suspect that it was easier to say "European" than to list all the countries.

As hot as you can get it burning wood.I think it's really just a few of us who use these digital guns and really they are a crutch.Basically if yor oven starts of white,then turns black and by the time it is completely back to being white again,then it's ready.

David. That was your post. Where does it say that you use a thermometer? I don't care if you use one and mentioned it before or after this post. This was what you said. I guess you don't realize that for people who like to know the temperature of their oven (a pretty common occurrence even in the professional culinary world), a statement like "these digital guns [...] are a crutch" is quite offensive. This isn't about getting into a "pissing match." It's about either not being hypocritical if you find that thermometers are an important measurement tool, or recognize the fact that a lot of other people think that way.

David & Marco,

There's a simple solution to this. When someone asks what the ideal temperature is, answer "I don't think there is one as long as you keep it above x degrees." In case the definition fails you, a "crutch" is what one uses when they are weak. Is that the message you're trying to convey? "People have been using similar wood ovens to todays ones for more then 2000 years and have all done so without knowing the temperatures." - Marco People have also measured ingredients without resolutions of 1g or the use of digital scales, but does that make a digital scale a crutch?

November, you need to undertsand the limitation of learning behind a keyboard and/or book an artisan job. [...] Do you have a wood oven?

Excuse me, but I have spent many years learning in the lab and I know it applies in the kitchen as well. That doesn't mean you throw out the book though. The book gives you knowledge while the lab/kitchen gives you experience in application. Yes, I have a wood burning oven/grill.

As hot as you can get it burning wood.I think it's really just a few of us who use these digital guns and really they are a crutch.Basically if yor oven starts of white,then turns black and by the time it is completely back to being white again,then it's ready.

Sorry I wrongly assumed it would be read as including me ? Ah well...... c'est la vie.Yes I do think they can be crutches as when 99% of the people who make pizza probably don't own one,there will now be some who will feel inadequate and helpless without it. Yes,scales,thermometers ,food processors,mixers,recipes, etc.etc.They are all bloody crutches.

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What?! I'm not even familiar with the pizza he's trying to bake. Whether I have an answer for him has nothing to do with it since it isn't my pizza he's trying to bake. If it were my pizza recipe or I was familiar with baking it, I would be more than happy to give him a temperature.

"I don't need to, as i'm familiar with my oven . What good would that do anyone else anyway as my oven and it's performance wil have it's own set of characteristics and variables (some) of which are controlled by me?"

That is ridiculous. All ovens, wood-burning or not are different. That doesn't stop people from giving temperatures in their recipes. Smart people assume that results may vary, but it's a starting place.

"Arthur (as others ) will be pleased to get a final and educated decision on this,instead of my half assed input."

I don't know what you're rambling about here either. I simply took issue with calling a thermometer a crutch and now you're talking about my input to Arthur. I haven't addressed Arthur once. I'm addressing you. This is a discussion board, and I'm sure there is no rule that you can't address someone if they're not asking a question.

Sorry I wrongly assumed it would be read as including me ? Ah well...... c'est la vie.Yes I do think they can be crutches as when 99% of the people who make pizza probably don't own one,there will now be some who will feel inadequate and helpless without it. Yes,scales,thermometers ,food processors,mixers,recipes, etc.etc.They are all bloody crutches.

Again, I don't care if you use one. It's not a crutch unless the definition of "crutch" has changed in the last few minutes. They're just tools. "there will now be some who will feel inadequate and helpless without it" However, inversely you potentially offend people who then use one. Do you concern yourself with someone else's feelings of inadequacy when mentioning the weight of flour in a recipe when there are many people who don't own a scale?

Thanks Peter. I was just completely off by adding my commercial yeast initially - which probably defeats the purpose of an autolyse.

Nope, not according to Peter and my experience. I though so too and asked a while back. It is not an issue. Rather than put your yeast in the cold water though, add it to the flour, so there is not quite as much cold shock to the yeast. My experience is that as long as the dough as a few days in the fridge, it'll be fine.

I have not noticed a big difference between adding the yeast at first or not. This is not such a big deal.

Yes it gives your dough a little extra fermentation time, but that's about it.

I think the difference may be material but I am not sure I can prove it, at least not yet. I also think it depends on the duration of the autolyse and whether the dough goes through another rest period before going into the refrigerator.

This is a subject that I have been thinking about quite a bit recently, especially after the exchange I had with member petesopizza at this thread: http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,3587.msg30225.html#msg30225. petesopizza believes that adding the yeast later is better than adding it sooner, so long as the finished dough is given a few days of cold fermentation. Member giotto was also a proponent of the late addition of the yeast. In his case, and petesopizza’s case as well, the yeast in question was active dry yeast, not IDY. If the case for later addition of the yeast holds in the absence of an autolyse, I believe it should hold for the autolyse case also.

For purposes of this discussion, let us first assume that the yeast is added at the beginning of the autolyse. If the autolyse period is fairly long, say, around 20-30 minutes (which is typical), and was preceded by a reasonable amount of mixing, then it seems to me that the yeast, and especially instant dry yeast (IDY), will have been sufficiently activated by the liquid (water) and provided with sufficient oxygen (through the initial mixing) to start to reproduce (bud). With sufficient agitation and dispersion of the yeast, as occurs with the initial mixing in a fairly liquid environment, it will reproduce better. At some point, the process goes from aerobic to anaerobic (from oxygen to no oxygen) and fermentation starts and carbon dioxide and ethyl alcohol are produced by the fermentation. It does not take much to get the IDY activated because it is of relatively small particle size (smaller than ADY), it has more active cells (fewer dead cells than ADY), and is of a strain and shape that is conducive to faster action so long as it is not shocked by cold water (as Jack has noted). Once serious kneading begins, the IDY will continue to ferment the sugars in the dough and, as the heat of machine friction increases, the fermentation process will accelerate accordingly.

Now, consider the case where the IDY is added at the end of the autolyse. In this scenario, and all else being equal, the IDY will still activate once it is added to the dough because of the presence of the water, as before, but if there isn't enough oxygen in the dough at this time to promote healthy reproduction of the yeast, the yeast may instead use the sugars in the dough to produce carbon dioxide and ethyl alcohol rather than for reproduction purposes. From what I have read, it takes about twenty minutes for the yeast to bud (reproduce). If the duration of the knead is less than twenty minutes, which it seems it should be because of the effects of the autolyse to reduce total mix time, then the yeast energy levels should be reduced and the rate and extent of fermentation should be pegged at lower levels than for the first example. Also, the finished dough should be subjected to less machine frictional heat because of the shorter mix time. Moreover, if the dough goes into the refrigerator immediately, rather than after a second rest period, the rate and extent of fermentation will be further reduced. The difference in the useful lives of the two doughs in my two examples may be far more than the duration of the autolyse period(s). Maybe it is possible that adding the yeast to the dough at the end rather than the beginning will buy a couple of days more of useful life.

If my assumptions and analysis are correct and a materially longer fermentation time is desired, then it may be better to add the yeast toward the end of the process rather than at the beginning.

On second look at your list I think that your prospective changes would be perfect. Eventually some day also try lowering the hydration as well and see what you think.

Scott, I'll probably use a 60% hydration for this weeks batch.

I really do appreciate everyones comments and I'm just trying to get my pizza to the best state I can. Like many of you I work all week thinking about pizza and spend much of my day looking forward to making my next batch for the weekend. With my new wood burning oven I'm even more excited. Even though I've been making pizza for 15 years in a home oven with the new oven and new flour it's like starting over again - and great fun.

A couple of thoughts...- oven temp - even though I have very little experience with this it's pretty clear that more than a 3 minute pizza is too long - just based on how the dough cooks relative to the cheese. I will be shooting for a 2 1/2 minute pizza which is probably 800 degrees on the floor near the coals in my particular oven- wood burning oven vs home oven - in my home oven everything was consistent; the same pizza was produced week after week. The wood burning oven seems to require more of an "artistry" and hopefully I will learn the artistry. I really get the sense that you need to "feel" your way around heat management. No one had a fireplace in Brooklyn growing up so this whole wood-thing is new.- I'm a believer (similar to most on this site) that less is more. The less I add to the ingredients the better. I'm sticking with that one.

Finally, if you get a wood burning oven - don't tell anyone. I made the mistake of letting some of my neighbors know and now everyone wants to come over but I'm still in my beginning stages of learning. Funny - just in the last two weeks we've been invited over several neighbors houses for dinner - I assume in hope of reciprocity. I can't wait to have everyone over but I'm still in my learning stage.

As I mention in the post I'm just kind of handy (can do basic things around the house) but never before used concrete or even a power saw. Putting together the oven was a great experience. I am having someone else finish the oven (with a stone facade) but I would really recommend the fornobravo oven and putting it together yourself. I'm sure there could be a lot of discussion on prefab ovens vs building one from scratch but for me I didn't feel comfortable building one from scratch. I had been thinking and talking about an oven for so long and all I can say is that I wish I did it sooner.

hey there again Arthur, thanks for the link. Ive been looking at that line on and off. Would you care to elaborate for me on all of the exta materials, prices venting accecories, etc. I would appreciate it. thanks-marc

I followed these exactly as stated. Again I have the casa series. I bought the casa90 oven, 3 piece chimney system and 3 bags of refrax mortar (and you get some cool tools/peels with the oven). I don't remember the exact price for everything (looks like $2200 for the oven + $200 or so for the other things) but there was an additional cost ($500?) to ship the 700 pounds of oven from CA to VA. I think they have their latest prices on the site. All other materials I bought from home depot.

Home depot delivers in my area for $75 no matter how much you buy so that was useful to get the materials to my house.

There's probably some other stuff but not much more. Before the project I didn't even know what rebar was (and certainly not vermiculite or refrax or ...) so don't worry if it seems scary. You should check out other competitors. Honestly I went with fornobravo mostly because I felt like James was going to answer my million questions and he did.