Thanks for telling me that the De Lorenzo #6 dough ball preformed as it should have. I know when a dough ball is left out at warmer room temperatures that dough balls can rise fairly quickly. Why do you think my dough ball didn't have the right amount of elasticity and extensibility? I did follow you mixing method, mix times, rest period and letting the lid off in the fridge for the recommended amount of time. My skin did not retract at all when placed onto the wooden peel and sure didn't look like De Lorenzo's skins.

Norma,

If I had to guess, I would say that it was possible that your dough ball was overfermented. In all of my test doughs, I did not encounter that problem. However, I was watching the dough balls carefully for bubbling, since I wanted the skins to look like the De Lorenzo/Robbinsville skins from the photos and videos we have seen. Normally, dough balls are good for a few hours longer than the temper time. But I did not let my dough balls go that far. In my next post I will discuss the results of my latest tests that might have some bearing on the elasticity/extensibility issue in relation to the clone De Lorenzo/Robbinsville dough balls.

FYI, if the poppy seed spacing reached 1.5" for your De Lorenzo/Robbinsville clone dough, that would have represented more than a tripling (338%) in volume of the dough ball.

As I mentioned yesterday and today, I made a couple more De Lorenzo/Robbivinsville clone test doughs to test smaller and larger thickness factors. As you know, I have been using a thickness factor of 0.065. I wanted to see what would happen if I made a thinner skin and a larger skin.

By way of background, for the two latest test dough balls I used the exact same dough formulation as I set forth in Reply 745 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,25401.msg281529.html#msg281529 but using KABF supplemented with a small amount of VWG to have the same protein content (12.9%) as the Pillsbury Best Bakers Patent Flour. The dough preparation methods I used were also identical to those set forth in Reply 745. So, the only differences were the thickness factors for the latest test dough balls. The smaller of the two test dough balls weighed 9.5 ounces. The corresponding thickness of that dough ball was 0.061713. The larger of the two test balls weighed 11 ounces. I selected that weight intentionally and, from that weight, I calculated a corresponding thickness factor of 0.07205. That value is a bit less than the thickness factor that I calculated for the 11.2-ounce dough ball that you purchased from De Lorenzo/Sloan/. Both dough balls were intended to be used to make skins of the same size, 14".

I designed the two test dough balls so that they could be used after either one day of cold fermentation or after two days of cold fermentation. But, for the recent tests, I decided to use the dough balls after one day of cold fermentation. After one day of cold fermentation, the smaller dough ball had increased in volume by about 67.5%. The larger dough ball after one day of cold fermentation expanded more slowly, by about 42.4%. In both cases, the dough balls were tempered at room temperature for about 1 1/2-2 hours. I generally looked for the formation of soft bubbles as a sign that I should open them up to form skins. I might add that at no time prior to tempering had the dough balls exhibited any bubbling of any kind. As you know, that was intentional since I was trying to come up with dough balls that could be formed into skins looking like those that we saw in the Robbinsville photos. My solution was to use small amounts of yeast and keeping the fermentation and volume expansion on the low side. To refresh your memory, I used only 0.12% IDY for both test dough balls. I should also add that during the tempering of the two test dough balls, I left the poppy seeds in place. I wanted to see how long it would take for the dough balls to increase more in volume. The answer was not long. Both dough balls got up to speed and reached the doubling stage in pretty short order, and within their respective temper periods.

The first dough ball that I opened to form a skin was the smaller dough ball. I had no trouble opening that dough ball and stretching it to 14", and beyond, but it was very delicate and always on the verge of developing tears or holes. Also, I could see the cornmeal throughout the skin and it did not look like the skins that we saw in the Robbinsville photos. I compared the skin to those in the Robbinsville photos, which I had in front of me on my iPad in the kitchen, and the skin I made did not look as thick as those in the Robbinsville photos. I can't say that the difference was dramatic. I was looking at my three-dimension skin and comparing it with two-dimension photos. I concluded that a 9.5-ounce dough ball with a thickness factor of 0.061713 was too small for a 14" pizza. Maybe that dough ball would have worked if it had been made commercially but not in my home KitchenAid stand mixer using the methods I used.

The second (larger) dough ball turned out to be a big surprise. I did not quite know what to expect but I soon found out as I opened it up that it was going to form a nice skin. It was a bit elastic as I opened it up but once I got the stretching action going it handled very nicely--better than any of the eighteen test dough balls that I had made up to that time. I could stretch the skin with almost reckless abandon, and I could even grab the skin by the edges and let the skin droop without falling toward the floor. The skin looked a lot like those I saw in the Robbinsville photos although I could not tell if the photos were of 14" or 16" skins. The quality of my skin was not as good as what Robbinsville appears to be using but I expected that. But at least my skin had a nice balance of elasticity and extensibility and there were no bubbles in the skin. Of course, I have no way of knowing how such a skin would have baked up as a pizza. As a final note on the larger dough ball, I should mention that I used semolina instead of cornmeal for that dough ball. I do not think that that substitution was a factor but I am leaning again toward the use of semolina because it is finer than the cornmeal I have been using.

As a result of the above test with the 11-ounce dough ball, I am planning on testing a thickness factor somewhere between the two thickness factor values I tested in order to determine in which direction I should be testing those values. I might also increase the hydration a bit in order to get a bit more extensibility in the final dough. But I will keep the yeast quantity low and strive for a low fermentation/rise of the test dough. If De Lorenzo/Robbinsville is using a lot of yeast and not getting bubbling in the dough after one or more days of cold fermentation, I don't know how they are doing it.

If I had to guess, I would say that it was possible that your dough ball was overfermented. In all of my test doughs, I did not encounter that problem. However, I was watching the dough balls carefully for bubbling, since I wanted the skins to look like the De Lorenzo/Robbinsville skins from the photos and videos we have seen. Normally, dough balls are good for a few hours longer than the temper time. But I did not let my dough balls go that far. In my next post I will discuss the results of my latest tests that might have some bearing on the elasticity/extensibility issue in relation to the clone De Lorenzo/Robbinsville dough balls.

FYI, if the poppy seed spacing reached 1.5" for your De Lorenzo/Robbinsville clone dough, that would have represented more than a tripling (338%) in volume of the dough ball.

Peter

Peter,

Thanks for your guess that the dough ball I used yesterday was probably overfermented. I did touch the top of the dough ball in different places before opening it and did not feel any soft bubbles, but since you told me that my dough ball more than tripled in volume I can understand it might have been overfermented.

As I mentioned yesterday and today, I made a couple more De Lorenzo/Robbivinsville clone test doughs to test smaller and larger thickness factors. As you know, I have been using a thickness factor of 0.065. I wanted to see what would happen if I made a thinner skin and a larger skin.

By way of background, for the two latest test dough balls I used the exact same dough formulation as I set forth in Reply 745 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,25401.msg281529.html#msg281529 but using KABF supplemented with a small amount of VWG to have the same protein content (12.9%) as the Pillsbury Best Bakers Patent Flour. The dough preparation methods I used were also identical to those set forth in Reply 745. So, the only differences were the thickness factors for the latest test dough balls. The smaller of the two test dough balls weighed 9.5 ounces. The corresponding thickness of that dough ball was 0.061713. The larger of the two test balls weighed 11 ounces. I selected that weight intentionally and, from that weight, I calculated a corresponding thickness factor of 0.07205. That value is a bit less than the thickness factor that I calculated for the 11.2-ounce dough ball that you purchased from Se Lorenzo/Sloan/. Both dough balls were intended to be used to make skins of the same size, 14".

I designed the two test dough balls so that they could be used after either one day of cold fermentation or after two days of cold fermentation. But, for the recent tests, I decided to use the dough balls after one day of cold fermentation. After one day of cold fermentation, the smaller dough ball had increased in volume by about 67.5%. The larger dough ball after one day of cold fermentation expanded more slowly, by about 42.4%. In both cases, the dough balls were tempered at room temperature for about 1 1/2-2 hours. I generally looked for the formation of soft bubbles as a sign that I should open them up to form skins. I might add that at no time prior to tempering had the dough balls exhibited any bubbling of any kind. As you know, that was intentional since I was trying to come up with dough balls that could be formed into skins looking like those that we saw in the Robbinsville photos. My solution was to use small amounts of yeast and keeping the fermentation and volume expansion on the low side. To refresh your memory, I used only 0.12% IDY for both test dough balls. I should also add that during the tempering of the two test dough balls, I left the poppy seeds in place. I wanted to see how long it would take for the dough balls to increase more in volume. The answer was not long. Both dough balls got up to speed and reached the doubling stage in pretty short order, and within their respective temper periods.

The first dough ball that I opened to form a skin was the smaller dough ball. I had no trouble opening that dough ball and stretching it to 14", and beyond, but it was very delicate and always on the verge of developing tears or holes. Also, I could see the cornmeal throughout the skin and it did not look like the skins that we saw in the Robbinsville photos. I compared the skin to those in the Robbinsville photos, which I had in front of me on my iPad in the kitchen, and the skin I made did not look as thick as those in the Robbinsville photos. I can't say that the difference was dramatic. I was looking at my three-dimension skin and comparing it with two-dimension photos. I concluded that a 9.5-ounce dough ball with a thickness factor of 0.061713 was too small for a 14" pizza. Maybe that dough ball would have worked if it had been made commercially but not in my home KitchenAid stand mixer using the methods I used.

The second (larger) dough ball turned out to be a big surprise. I did not quite know what to expect but I soon found out as I opened it up that it was going to form a nice skin. It was a bit elastic as I opened it up but once I got the stretching action going it handled very nicely--better than any of the eighteen test dough balls that I had made up to that time. I could stretch the skin with almost reckless abandon, and I could even grab the skin by the edges and let the skin droop without falling toward the floor. The skin looked a lot like those I saw in the Robbinsville photos although I could not tell if the photos were of 14" or 16" skins. The quality of my skin was not as good as what Robbinsville appears to be using but I expected that. But at least my skin had a nice balance of elasticity and extensibility and there were no bubbles in the skin. Of course, I have no way of knowing how such a skin would have baked up as a pizza. As a final note on the larger dough ball, I should mention that I used semolina instead of cornmeal for that dough ball. I do not think that that substitution was a factor but I am leaning again toward the use of semolina because it is finer than the cornmeal I have been using.

As a result of the above test with the 11-ounce dough ball, I am planning on testing a thickness factor somewhere between the two thickness factor values I tested in order to determine in which direction I should be testing those values. I might also increase the hydration a bit in order to get a bit more extensibility in the final dough. But I will keep the yeast quantity low and strive for a low fermentation/rise of the test dough. If De Lorenzo/Robbinsville is using a lot of yeast and not getting bubbling in the dough after one or more days of cold fermentation, I don't know how they are doing it.

Those are very interesting results you achieved using different thickness factors from your two test dough balls. I know your intentions have been trying to make dough balls that could be formed into skins looking like those that we saw in the Robbinsville photos. How long did the two dough balls take to increase more in volume approximately? The reason I asked that question is because in the Pie Eyed movie it discusses the one tomato pie business that I think is closed now and I think the granddaughter talks about how her grandfather used to exactly know when to take the dough balls out of the cooler and put them in drawers he had built under his work bench. She said she never fully understood how he exactly knew when to take those dough balls out to sit in those drawers to warm up for them to be ready to be make into pizza, but he sure did know.

I find it interesting too that the lower TF dough ball produced a skin that was very delicate and always was on the verge of developing tears or holes.

Your second dough ball with a higher TF sure is a big surprise to me too. Great to hear that that it handled better than any of the eighteen test dough balls that you have made up to this time. I think you sure on to something now about how De Lorenzo/Robbinsville dough balls handle so well since you said you could stretch the skin with almost reckless abandon and could even grab the skin by the edges and let the skin droop without falling toward the flour.

Do you want me to wait until you try some more tests before making another De Lorenzo's dough ball?

I also wanted to mention that in the Pie Eyed video all the pizza men said you do need a high enough oven temperature to bake the tomato pie style pizza right and the one pizza man said it takes a long while to learn just the right places in the oven to moved the pizza around to get the right crispy bottom crust.

I would say that it took about 1 1/2-2 hours at room temperature for both dough balls to expand to the point of just about doubling, based on the poppy seed spacings.

It is up to you if you want to proceed with the #7 formulation or wait for the results of later tests. It is increasingly sounding like the oven is a much bigger driver than we have thought, maybe as important as the dough itself. What you are experiencing reminds me of how difficult it was to make cracker style pizzas with uniformly thin and crispy-shattering crusts, even when the same dough and processing methods were used. Even now I see members express frustration with their cracker style pizzas. I think that Chicago thin style pizzas are prone to the same problem.

I would say that it took about 1 1/2-2 hours at room temperature for both dough balls to expand to the point of just about doubling, based on the poppy seed spacings.

It is up to you if you want to proceed with the #7 formulation or wait for the results of later tests. It is increasingly sounding like the oven is a much bigger driver than we have thought, maybe as important as the dough itself. What you are experiencing reminds me of how difficult it was to make cracker style pizzas with uniformly thin and crispy-shattering crusts, even when the same dough and processing methods were used. Even now I see members express frustration with their cracker style pizzas. I think that Chicago thin style pizzas are prone to the same problem.

Peter

Peter,

Thanks for telling about how long at room temperature it took for both dough balls to expand to be double in volume. I just wanted that reference point if I try out your #7 formulation for Tuesday. I might mix a dough tonight. It is supposed to be cooler in our area on Tuesday so I would have to watch the dough ball while it warms up to see when it would about double in volume.

I think from trying my Baker's Pride at market and now my BS it does appear the oven temperature is a very big driver in how the final pizza will be in addition to the dough formulation. In my limited opinion this pizza is almost as difficult as trying to produce a cracker style crust. I know I had very much difficulty in making a good cracker style pizza and really don't know if I ever made a really good one. It takes me back to when I tried that and I know I didn't really try enough or have duplicate results in what I did. For some reason I really didn't like a cracker style crust pizza enough to keep experimenting. I know when I tried the HRI clone dough that I had problems with oven management and also having the right dough to stretch right.

I am not sure if Steve will be able to help me at market Tuesday because his truck brakes gave out on him last week and he couldn't go to Green Dragon because of that. The garage now told Steve it would be Tuesday or Wednesday until they get the parts to fix his brakes. If Steve doesn't come to market I might wait until the end of the evening and jack my oven temperature up if I am not too tired to make an attempted De Lorenzo's pizza.

I did talk to Vince Amico Saturday morning and told him I would send a check for the movie. Vince said when he has more time he wants to talk to me more since soon he will be shutting down his ice cream shops. I asked Vince if there was anyone else in the Trenton area I could talk to about Trenton tomato pies and Vince told me right now he does not know of anyone, but will think about that. In the Pie Eyed movie the one tomato pie maker that works at Palermo's III https://plus.google.com/105645165810339357637/about and http://www.palermostomatopie.com/34.html talked about how critical it was to move around the tomato pies to the right hots spots in the oven and he said he could teach someone how to make tomato pies, but if they did not move the pizzas around right in the oven they would not get a crisp enough crust on the bottom crust. The other pie maker that works at Palermo's III said in the movie that Chick De Lorenzo did help him with his dough recipe, but he does makes a stretchier dough that can be tossed. Maybe if the stars align right at some point in time I can talk to them.

I did talk to Vince Amico Saturday morning and told him I would send a check for the movie. Vince said when he has more time he wants to talk to me more since soon he will be shutting down his ice cream shops. I asked Vince if there was anyone else in the Trenton area I could talk to about Trenton tomato pies and Vince told me right now he does not know of anyone, but will think about that. In the Pie Eyed movie the one tomato pie maker that works at Palermo's III https://plus.google.com/105645165810339357637/about and http://www.palermostomatopie.com/34.html talked about how critical it was to move around the tomato pies to the right hots spots in the oven and he said he could teach someone how to make tomato pies, but if they did not move the pizzas around right in the oven they would not get a crisp enough crust on the bottom crust. The other pie maker that works at Palermo's III said in the movie that Chick De Lorenzo did help him with his dough recipe, but he does makes a stretchier dough that can be tossed. Maybe if the stars align right at some point in time I can talk to them.

Norma

Norma,

Perhaps when you speak with Vince again you could ask him where the recipe on the video comes from. Is it a family recipe? Is it supposed to be similar to any particular establishment's tomato pies?

I hope Vince does introduce you to someone you can discuss tomato pies with as I'm sure it would be really interesting for you and a lot of fun. With your knowledge, however, you'd probably do as much teaching as learning if you do discuss tomato pies with someone.

Taking Peter's suggestion, I used 69% All Trumps (248.82 grams) and 31% Western Family AP flour (111.8 grams) in order to better approximate the Pillsbury Best Bakers Patent Flour

Final dough ball weights were 10 oz and 10.1 oz

The .4 percent IDY in this recipe is a little too much for me at my high altitude. (pic 1) This was after a 40 hour cold fermentation followed by a 2 hour temper in my cold oven with light on. Both of these dough balls were more elastic for me than the De Lorenzo's formula # 4 that I tried last week and I had more trouble opening them and bringing them to size. I felt that the dough was getting too thin and was on the verge of tearing as I tried to get it stretched to 14 inches. In pic 2 you can see the how thin the dough became and you can nearly see the peel right through the dough.

I wanted to see what effect different materials on the peel would have on the finished pizza, so on the 1st pizza I used mainly flour, with just a little bit of semolina mixed in. It can be seen that I didn't get nearly enough char on the bottom (pic 3) even though the top was reasonably colored (pic 4).

For the 2nd pizza (Pic 1 and Pic 2), I used the same bake time, but put cornmeal on the peel. I did get better coloration, but in looking at the bottom of my crust, it looks nothing like the underside seen in Norma's photos from the Robinsonville location. Pics 3 and 4 are my crust, pics 5 and 6 are Norma's from Robinsonville De Lorenzo.

My current thinking based on these results:

1) Like Peter, I think the 10 oz dough ball is too small for the 14 inch De Lorenzo clone. I think 11 to 11.5 oz will get us closer to where we want to be. At 10 oz, the dough ball is just too thin to stay as crispy and strong in the center as a De Lorenzo pie.

2) Flour only is used on the peel when launching these pies. There's just no trace of any granular material at all on the underside of Norma's pizza. What we do see is, I believe, scorched flour and this is why I think moving the pie around to different hot spots in the oven is so important. I may not be able to achieve anything close to this in my home oven, but for my next test I will move my steel all the way down to the bottom rack and leave the pizza there for the whole bake.

I do think that cornmeal, rather than semolina is used in the trays where the dough balls are stored based on the appearance in this video at about 1:16. I think this is brushed off or falls to the floor during the opening of the skin as there doesn't appear to be any visible on the bottom of these pies.

As a result of the above test with the 11-ounce dough ball, I am planning on testing a thickness factor somewhere between the two thickness factor values I tested in order to determine in which direction I should be testing those values. I might also increase the hydration a bit in order to get a bit more extensibility in the final dough. But I will keep the yeast quantity low and strive for a low fermentation/rise of the test dough. If De Lorenzo/Robbinsville is using a lot of yeast and not getting bubbling in the dough after one or more days of cold fermentation, I don't know how they are doing it.

Following up on my own suggestion as quoted above, the other night I made another De Lorenzo/Robbinsville clone test dough. Normally, I try to make my test doughs at the same time of day, as a pizzeria might do, but because I was so intrigued by the previous test dough results with the higher thickness factor (0.07205), I decided to forge ahead nonetheless. This time, I selected 10.5 ounces as the dough ball weight. For a 14" skin, that translates into a thickness factor of 0.0682. For the hydration value, I used 57%. The yeast quantity remained at 0.12% and the oil (blend) remained at 1%. The only other material change was an increase in the amount of salt from 1.5% that I had been using in all of my clone dough formulations to 1.75%. That was a concession to those who have commented on the blandness of the De Lorenzo/Robbinsville crust.

The clone test dough was made in the same way as described at Reply 745 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,25401.msg281529.html#msg281529. This time, I used semolina instead of cornmeal. It may well be that De Lorenzo/Robbinsville is using cornmeal, as Tim (RockyMountainPie) believes, but the cornmeal that I have, even though it is finely ground, still seems to be too grainy. If General Mills, which is the source of the Pillsbury Best Bakers Patent Flour to De Lorenzo/Robbinsville, is also the source of either semolina or cornmeal to De Lorenzo/Robbinsville, all that I can report is that GM describes its semolina as "yellow-amber" in color and its cornmeal as "Medium yellow" in color.

As with many of the previous clone dough formulations, I intended the latest clone test dough to be usable either after one day of cold fermentation or after two days of cold fermentation. However, I decided to use the clone test dough after one day of cold fermentation. As it turned out, the spacing of the poppy seeds after almost a full day of cold fermentation showed very little rise in the dough. The weather had turned cool here recently (into the 50s at night) and the test dough was unmolested in the refrigerator through the nighttime hours, but I can't say that that was the cause of the slight rise in the dough. However, as I have discussed before in this thread, there is no need to panic since the lethargy of an otherwise properly made dough can often be overcome by bringing the refrigerated dough out to room temperature. So, that is what I did. I let the dough temper at room temperature for about 2 1/4-2 1/2 hours. The dough warmed up and the spacing of the poppy seeds increased. When the poppy seed spacing indicated a rise of close to doubling, I opened up the dough ball. I had no trouble doing so. In fact, this dough performed the best of all of the clone test doughs I have made to date, and by far more than I was expecting. If I were looking for a dough ball that most performed like the dough balls shown in the De Lorenzo/Robbinsville photos and related videos, this would be the one I would choose. My skin was a bit more elastic than the Robbinsville skins that I have seen in the videos but, once the dough ball was opened, it performed flawlessly. And with no bubbling of the dough at any stage, not even soft surface bubbles.

As I often do after conducting a series of tests, I pause for a while to think things through and to ask myself what I have learned from all of the tests. In this case, what I have learned is that if one wants to make a dough that exhibits no bubbling at either the dough ball or skin level, then the best way--maybe the only way--to do this is to use a small yeast quantity and keep the fermentation activity low. Up to the point of use, coming out of the refrigerator, it can be remarkably low. This suggests that a second day of cold fermentation will also be a viable option. Also, I have learned to use a thickness factor that is not too small, so that the skin doesn't either run away or be prone to thin spots and tears/rips/holes, and use a moderately high hydration value. My next test dough will test a hydration value of 58%, while keeping all of the other values the same.

For the record, here is the latest De Lorenzo/Robbinsville test clone dough formulation:

Perhaps when you speak with Vince again you could ask him where the recipe on the video comes from. Is it a family recipe? Is it supposed to be similar to any particular establishment's tomato pies?

I hope Vince does introduce you to someone you can discuss tomato pies with as I'm sure it would be really interesting for you and a lot of fun. With your knowledge, however, you'd probably do as much teaching as learning if you do discuss tomato pies with someone.

Tim

Tim,

Thanks so much for all of your experiments! Your De Lorenzo's attempts look very good. I am glad you are helping us on the De Lorenzo/Robbinvile journey. Thank also for all of the details you give too. Your work in a home oven is invaluable because I would think most people that might want to try and make a pizza like De Lorenzo's would use a home oven.

As to your post about me asking Vince where the recipe he posted on the Pie Eyed movie is from, Trenton Bill is also asking me to ask Vince the same questions. I did not ask that question yet. I am hoping Vince can talk to me more when he shuts his ice cream shops for the winter. You can see what I am going to post in trying to find out more about tomato pies and from me talking to Vince again. As for me knowing about tomato pies I still have a lot to learn.

Following up on my own suggestion as quoted above, the other night I made another De Lorenzo/Robbinsville clone test dough. Normally, I try to make my test doughs at the same time of day, as a pizzeria might do, but because I was so intrigued by the previous test dough results with the higher thickness factor (0.07205), I decided to forge ahead nonetheless. This time, I selected 10.5 ounces as the dough ball weight. For a 14" skin, that translates into a thickness factor of 0.0682. For the hydration value, I used 57%. The yeast quantity remained at 0.12% and the oil (blend) remained at 1%. The only other material change was an increase in the amount of salt from 1.5% that I had been using in all of my clone dough formulations to 1.75%. That was a concession to those who have commented on the blandness of the De Lorenzo/Robbinsville crust.

The clone test dough was made in the same way as described at Reply 745 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,25401.msg281529.html#msg281529. This time, I used semolina instead of cornmeal. It may well be that De Lorenzo/Robbinsville is using cornmeal, as Tim (RockyMountainPie) believes, but the cornmeal that I have, even though it is finely ground, still seems to be too grainy. If General Mills, which is the source of the Pillsbury Best Bakers Patent Flour to De Lorenzo/Robbinsville, is also the source of either semolina or cornmeal to De Lorenzo/Robbinsville, all that I can report is that GM describes its semolina as "yellow-amber" in color and its cornmeal as "Medium yellow" in color.

As with many of the previous clone dough formulations, I intended the latest clone test dough to be usable either after one day of cold fermentation or after two days of cold fermentation. However, I decided to use the clone test dough after one day of cold fermentation. As it turned out, the spacing of the poppy seeds after almost a full day of cold fermentation showed very little rise in the dough. The weather had turned cool here recently (into the 50s at night) and the test dough was unmolested in the refrigerator through the nighttime hours, but I can't say that that was the cause of the slight rise in the dough. However, as I have discussed before in this thread, there is no need to panic since the lethargy of an otherwise properly made dough can often be overcome by bringing the refrigerated dough out to room temperature. So, that is what I did. I let the dough temper at room temperature for about 2 1/4-2 1/2 hours. The dough warmed up and the spacing of the poppy seeds increased. When the poppy seed spacing indicated a rise of close to doubling, I opened up the dough ball. I had no trouble doing so. In fact, this dough performed the best of all of the clone test doughs I have made to date, and by far more than I was expecting. If I were looking for a dough ball that most performed like the dough balls shown in the De Lorenzo/Robbinsville photos and related videos, this would be the one I would choose. My skin was a bit more elastic than the Robbinsville skins that I have seen in the videos but, once the dough ball was opened, it performed flawlessly. And with no bubbling of the dough at any stage, not even soft surface bubbles.

As I often do after conducting a series of tests, I pause for a while to think things through and to ask myself what I have learned from all of the tests. In this case, what I have learned is that if one wants to make a dough that exhibits no bubbling at either the dough ball or skin level, then the best way--maybe the only way--to do this to use a small yeast quantity and keep the fermentation activity low. Up to the point of use, coming out of the refrigerator, it can be remarkably low. This suggests that a second day of cold fermentation will also be a viable option. Also, I have learned to use a thickness factor that is not too small, so that the skin doesn't either run away or be prone to thin spots and tears/rips/holes, and use a moderately high hydration value. My next test dough will test a hydration value of 58%, while keeping all of the other values the same.

For the record, here is the latest De Lorenzo/Robbinsville test clone dough formulation:

Note: The dough (10.5 ounces) is for a single 14" pizza; nominal thickness factor = 0.0682; bowl residue compensation = 1.5%; the dough preparation method is as described in Reply 745 referenced above

Peter

Peter,

Wow, that post of yours sure gives a lot of great information. Great to hear the De Lorenzo Clone Dough Formulation #8 performed the best of all of the clone test doughs you have made to this date and by far more than you were expecting.

I now wish I would have waited until today to make a De Lorenzo Clone dough ball.

I called Vince Amico again to ask him if he knew who the older lady was in the Pie Eyed movie that talk about (who I thought was her grandfather) putting the dough balls in wooden drawers after he took them out of the cooler. She also was the lady in the movie that said she wished she would have the recipe for the dough for those tomato pies. At first Vince could not recall her last name, but as we were talking he recalled that her last name was Vizzini and told me her first name is Debbie. I then asked how they were related to tomato pies. Vince told me Debbie's father was the one that put the dough balls in those wooden drawers and the name of the tomato pie business that Debbie's father operated was Sam's Fish & Chips. I then asked how could a Fish & Chips business served tomato pies. Vince told me Sam's Fish & Chips was noted for their tomato pies. The next question I asked Vince was I wondered if the men that were in the movie (the one man talked about moving the tomato pies to the right hots spots in the oven) maybe would speak with me since I am trying to learn about tomato pies. Vince said he thinks they would speak with me about tomato pies.

I did mix a dough using Peter's De Lorenzo clone dough formulation #7 last evening and used the instructions to mix and the rest of the instructions. The dough felt very much like a NY style dough and seemed very strong. The TF is almost in line with a NY style dough. My dough ball was little short of 11.07 oz.

Thanks so much for all of your experiments! Your De Lorenzo's attempts look very good. I am glad you are helping us on the De Lorenzo/Robbinvile journey. Thank also for all of the details you give too. Your work in a home oven is invaluable because I would think most people that might want to try and make a pizza like De Lorenzo's would use a home oven.

Norma

Thanks Norma. I'm happy to be along for the ride and having lots of fun.

Thanks Norma. I'm happy to be along for the ride and having lots of fun.

--Tim

Tim,

What do you and your family think of the tomato pies you have made on this thread compared to the other styles of pizzas you make? I have seen you have been making different styles of pizzas with a lot of success. I kind of flip flop around on what style of pizzas I like at one given point in time.

Note: The dough (10.5 ounces) is for a single 14" pizza; the corresponding thickness factor = 0.0682; bowl residue compensation = 1.5%; the dough preparation method is as described in Reply 745 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,25401.msg281529.html#msg281529; I used KABF with VWG to increase the protein content of the blend to 12.9%, and I placed a thin layer of semolina in the dough storage container (a glass bowl).

As noted above, the latest clone test dough was prepared using the instructions set forth in Reply 745 referenced above. The only change I made with the latest clone test dough was to use warmer water to compensate for the lower temperatures we have been seeing in Texas this past week. Comparing outdoor high/low temperatures in Robbinsville, NJ over several days with those where I live outside of Dallas, and knowing my tap water temperature and also that De Lorenzo/Robbinsville uses municipal tap water, I came up with a temperature of about 60 degrees for the water to use in the latest clone test dough (my tap water is running at around 73 degrees F). Robbinsville temperatures are currently about 16 degrees F cooler than where I live.

After a day of cold fermentation, the spacing of the poppy seeds indicated that the dough ball had expanded by 67.5%. This was in line with many of my prior clone test doughs. I left the poppy seeds on the dough ball while it tempered, and ended up opening up the dough ball when the spacing indicated an approximate doubling of the dough ball. That took only 1 1/4 hours. As with the previous clone test dough, I had no problem opening up the latest clone test dough. In addition, the skin made from the dough ball had increased extensibility earlier in the skin formation process. In this respect, and as I had hoped when I increased the hydration value, the skin more closely mimiced what I had seen in the Robbinsville photos and related videos. I was also able to grasp the skin at the edges without fear that the skin would run away from me. In pretty much all material respects, the latest skin was the equal of the last one but with increased extensibility. Also as before, I would not have been able to toss or spin the skin. However, unlike some of the prior clone test doughs, I did get some soft bubbles in the most recent skin. Bubbles are not the end of the world, and I imagine that Robbinsville gets them from time to time with their dough balls. I would perhaps have to either lower the finished dough temperature or use even less yeast to prevent bubbling.

After I had opened the skin to its desired 14" size, I put the skin on my floured wooden peel. After about an hour, I checked to see if the skin had stuck to the peel. It did not. So that tells us that sticking is not a problem at a hydration of 58% and 1% oil (blend).

Looking back on my results, if I were to change anything, I think it would be to reduce the hydration slightly from 58% to 57.5%. That would represent a small tweak to slightly reduce the extensibility. That change would modify the above clone dough formulation as follows:

Note: The dough (10.5 ounces) is for a single 14" pizza; the corresponding thickness factor = 0.0682; bowl residue compensation = 1.5%; the dough preparation method is as described in Reply 745 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,25401.msg281529.html#msg281529; I used KABF with VWG to increase the protein content of the blend to 12.9%, and I placed a thin layer of semolina in the dough storage container (a glass bowl).

As noted above, the latest clone test dough was prepared using the instructions set forth in Reply 745 referenced above. The only change I made with the latest clone test dough was to use warmer water to compensate for the lower temperatures we have been seeing in Texas this past week. Comparing outdoor high/low temperatures in Robbinsville, NJ over several days with those where I live outside of Dallas, and knowing my tap water temperature and also that De Lorenzo/Robbinsville uses municipal tap water, I came up with a temperature of about 60 degrees for the water to use in the latest clone test dough (my tap water is running at around 73 degrees F). Robbinsville temperatures are currently about 16 degrees F cooler than where I live.

After a day of cold fermentation, the spacing of the poppy seeds indicated that the dough ball had expanded by 67.5%. This was in line with many of my prior clone test doughs. I left the poppy seeds on the dough ball while it tempered, and ended up opening up the dough ball when the spacing indicated an approximate doubling of the dough ball. That took only 1 1/4 hours. As with the previous clone test dough, I had no problem opening up the latest clone test dough. In addition, the skin made from the dough ball had increased extensibility earlier in the skin formation process. In this respect, and as I had hoped when I increased the hydration value, the skin more closely mimiced what I had seen in the Robbinsville photos and related videos. I was also able to grasp the skin at the edges without fear that the skin would run away from me. In pretty much all material respects, the latest skin was the equal of the last one but with increased extensibility. Also as before, I would not have been able to toss or spin the skin. However, unlike some of the prior clone test doughs, I did get some soft bubbles in the most recent skin. Bubbles are not the end of the world, and I imagine that Robbinsville gets them from time to time with their dough balls. I would perhaps have to either lower the finished dough temperature or use even less yeast to prevent bubbling.

After I had opened the skin to its desired 14" size, I put the skin on my floured wooden peel. After about an hour, I checked to see if the skin had stuck to the peel. It did not. So that tells us that sticking is not a problem at a hydration of 58% and 1% oil (blend).

Looking back on my results, if I were to change anything, I think it would be to reduce the hydration slightly from 58% to 57.5%. That would represent a small tweak to slightly reduce the extensibility. That change would modify the above clone dough formulation as follows:

Thanks for experimenting more with the De Lorenzo/Robbinsville Clone Dough Formulation #9 and posting if you were to change anything, you would think it would be to reduce the hydation slightly from 58% to 57.5% for a De Lorenzo/Robbinsville Clone Formulation #10.

I did up the temperature of my oven to over 600 degrees at the end of the night and my results were close to a De Lorenzo/Robbinsville pizza today in my opinion.

I did watch yesterday to see when the poppy seeds showed that the De Lornezo dough ball had expanded to double in size. The bigger tape measure was hard to place exactly right to see the actual expansion of the poppy seeds, but the poppy seeds were 1 ¼” apart. That was at 2:59 PM. I then took the dough ball out of the deli case to let it warm up for a little. As usual I got really busy then. I saw the poppy seeds spacings were showing that the dough ball was expanding quickly after it sat out at room temperature. I then put the dough ball back into the pizza prep fridge until I could get to it again. I did not measure the poppy seed spacing when I finally took the dough ball was removed from the pizza prep fridge (about a 6:00 PM), but saw the spacing of the poppy seeds were farther apart. There were no soft bubbles on top of the dough ball though. There was speckling on the top of the dough ball and I have no idea why they occurred.

The De Lorenzo clone dough ball using Peter's #7 formulation at Reply http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,25401.msg282443.html#msg282443 was easy to press out cold right out of the pizza prep fridge, but as I was pressing it out I did see and feel fermentation bubbles. The skin was easy to slide on the marble table and it opened nicely. I finished stretching the skin by hand and tried to toss it one time because I was curious to see if it could be tossed. The skin could be tossed without any tearing or ripping of the skin, but it was not near as strong as my regular skins at market. The pizza was dressed with Red Pack and 6-in 1's and the cheese used was shredded Sorrento LMPS. Olive oil was drizzled over the top of the dressings. I did turned my oven up because I was out of dough balls. When the oven got to a little over 600 on the sides edges of my deck oven I had started opening the dough ball. I am not quite sure what temperature the side edges were when I slid the pizza onto the deck, but as can be seen the temperature did go higher. I did not have time to fiddle around with the temperature knob and wait until the temperature stayed fairly constant at around 600 degrees F because it was getting late and I had a lot of clean up to do. The pizza was moved around to the side 4 corners again and the pizza was baked for 9 ½ minutes counting the amount of time the pizza was half removed to the opened oven door to brush the rim edges with olive oil and add the extra cheese.

I forgot to drizzle olive oil over the finished pizza it came out of the oven. I tried to take a video of cutting the pizza and halfway succeeded in that I did cut it, but a customer came and talked to me and then my granddaughter came back from shopping and asked me about what was on the pizza tray. As can be heard the pizza was crispy and crunchy as it was being cut. It is hard to cut a pizza and try to hold the camera at the same time so the video is not the best.

I think I over charred the bottom crust, but it did not taste burnt. I gave some slices to a few of my regular customers and some tasted testers and they said they could not taste any burnt taste in the bottom crust. This pizza was close, but not exactly like a real De Lorenzo/Robbinsville pizza.

Some how when I switched from the video mode to another mode on my camera to take regular photos the settings on the camera changed and then it took 3 photos in rapid succession. I only picked some of those photos to post, because basically they are almost identical.

My helpers yesterday were my granddaughter and her friend. Neither of them can make pizzas, but it sure was helpful having them to wait on customers, reheat slices, wash dishes and give change. My granddaughter had to go to the emergency room early Tuesday morning and they did a Cat Scan and tests and she was found to have a kidney infection with a kidney stone and a bladder infection. They gave her a shot in her upper leg and 3 prescriptions for medication to take care of that, but she still was a champ in helping yesterday despite of what was wrong with her. She had just been to her OB/GYN last week to be checked for a bladder infection and the tests there did not show anything.

Thank you for your report on the De Lorenzo/Robbinsville clone dough formulation #7. It looks like you have made progress using your Bakers Pride oven.

As I was creating De Lorenzo/Robbinsville clone test doughs, I wondered whether the dough balls and skins that we saw in the Robbinsville photos were regular day to day dough balls and skins, with no visible signs of bubbling. However, the video you posted at Reply 326 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,25401.msg275403.html#msg275403 seems to confirm the Robbinsville photos. And that video was taken in a normal business setting on a busy night, not for a staged photo shoot where things are done solely for the photo shoot. If our analysis on this point is correct, then it seems to me that the way to avoid or minimize bubbling in a dough that is subjected to cold fermentation, such as the De Lorenzo clone doughs, is to use a small amount of yeast and fermentation temperatures so that the fermentation is kept low--less than 100% expansion. Yesterday, I felt that I could have opened the test dough ball (#9) shortly after it came out of the refrigerator, when it was at the 67.5% expansion value. The dough just felt ready to use. However, I did not want to open up the dough ball only to find out that it had not warmed up enough, which would have resulted in wasting the dough ball and losing another day of experimentation time.

We have now tested hydration values, oil quantities, yeast quantities, thickness factor values, and cold fermentation periods--in over twenty different combinations to date. If the objective has been to create dough balls and skins that operate like those shown in the Robbinsville photos and the video you posted, then I would say that the more recent De Lorenzo/Robbinsville clone dough formulations perhaps come closest to that objective since we kept inching toward the goal posts. However, that is not to say that the earlier De Lorenzo clone dough formulations will not work well in the right setting, including the right oven with the right operating temperatures. Also, it is important to keep in mind that all of my tests have been done in Texas, not Robbinsville, and my formulations reflect that geographical difference and is reflected in the yeast values I used and the prevailing Texas temperatures and also the peculiarities of my particular mixer and refrigerator. There is nothing like making hundreds of dough balls on a daily basis in a commercial setting to get everything down right.

At this point, I am hard pressed to see anything that would lead me to conclude that we are not on the right track. But when you don't know the exact dough formulation that De Lorenzo/Robbinsville is using, and also the dough preparation and management methods that De Lorenzo/Robbinsville is using, anything is possible. However, I feel very comfortable with the performance of the doughs based on our experiments to date. The dough balls should open up with a decent balance of elasticity and extensibility and, with control over yeast usage and fermentation, the dough balls and skins should be relatively free of bubbling, at least at the one-day cold fermentation level that I think is what De Lorenzo/Robbinsville targets for its own dough balls, even though some may go a bit longer than that.

I also think that it is a big positive that we know the flour that De Lorenzo/Robbinsville is using, and also the two types of canned tomatoes and the brand and type of mozzarella cheese they are using. Often we don't know this type of information. Having it means a lot.

Thank you for your report on the De Lorenzo/Robbinsville clone dough formulation #7. It looks like you have made progress using your Bakers Pride oven.

As I was creating De Lorenzo/Robbinsville clone test doughs, I wondered whether the dough balls and skins that we saw in the Robbinsville photos were regular day to day dough balls and skins, with no visible signs of bubbling. However, the video you posted at Reply 326 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,25401.msg275403.html#msg275403 seems to confirm the Robbinsville photos. And that video was taken in a normal business setting on a busy night, not for a staged photo shoot where things are done solely for the photo shoot. If our analysis on this point is correct, then it seems to me that the way to avoid or minimize bubbling in a dough that is subjected to cold fermentation, such as the De Lorenzo clone doughs, is to use a small amount of yeast and fermentation temperatures so that the fermentation is kept low--less than 100% expansion. Yesterday, I felt that I could have opened the test dough ball (#9) shortly after it came out of the refrigerator, when it was at the 67.5% expansion value. The dough just felt ready to use. However, I did not want to open up the dough ball only to find out that it had not warmed up enough, which would have resulted in wasting the dough ball and losing another day of experimentation time.

We have now tested hydration values, oil quantities, yeast quantities, thickness factor values, and cold fermentation periods--in over twenty different combinations to date. If the objective has been to create dough balls and skins that operate like those shown in the Robbinsville photos and the video you posted, then I would say that the more recent De Lorenzo/Robbinsville clone dough formulations perhaps come closest to that objective since we kept inching toward the goal posts. However, that is not to say that the earlier De Lorenzo clone dough formulations will not work well in the right setting, including the right oven with the right operating temperatures. Also, it is important to keep in mind that all of my tests have been done in Texas, not Robbinsville, and my formulations reflect that geographical difference and is reflected in the yeast values I used and the prevailing Texas temperatures and also the peculiarities of my particular mixer and refrigerator. There is nothing like making hundreds of dough balls on a daily basis in a commercial setting to get everything down right.

At this point, I am hard pressed to see anything that would lead me to conclude that we are not on the right track. But when you don't know the exact dough formulation that De Lorenzo/Robbinsville is using, and also the dough preparation and management methods that De Lorenzo/Robbinsville is using, anything is possible. However, I feel very comfortable with the performance of the doughs based on our experiments to date. The dough balls should open up with a decent balance of elasticity and extensibility and, with control over yeast usage and fermentation, the dough balls and skins should be relatively free of bubbling, at least at the one-day cold fermentation level that I think is what De Lorenzo/Robbinsville targets for its own dough balls, even though some may go a bit longer than that.

I also think that it is a big positive that we know the flour that De Lorenzo/Robbinsville is using, and also the two types of canned tomatoes and the brand and type of mozzarella cheese they are using. Often we don't know this type of information. Having it means a lot.

Peter

Peter,

I wished I would have been able to have my deck oven at the exact right temperature yesterday to try your De Lorenzo clone dough formulation #7 and I would have been able to use the clone dough ball at the right time. Even if I would have been able to have my deck oven at 600 degrees F my deck oven probably would not have baked the same as De Lorenzo/Robbinville. As you know when I am doing experimental pizzas at market it is hard to try and time everything right. I don't know if I ever will be able to try higher temperatures in the deck oven at market. I should have pulled that attempt out before I did.

You are right that there were no signs of any fermentation bubbles in De Lorenzo/Robbinsville dough balls when they were opening them. I made sure I looked for that when I was at De Lorenzo/Robbinsville. When I go back to De Lorenzo's again I will try to check to see what they look like. I agree with you that it seems the way to avoid or minimize bubbling is to use a small amount of yeast and low fermentation temperatures. I did not know that you felt you could have opened the test dough ball #9 shortly after it came out of your refrigerator.

The hardest part of attempting to make a De Lorenzo clone pizza now is having the right oven and right temperatures. At least that is where I am stuck at.