Albinoman:No, not at all. You made that statement after copying my post, who else would it be to? Your statement was to imply my lack of understanding of what it's like to be a parent. I've been there, she's now long gone and I'm still childless. I countered by basically saying you know nothing about me (like you thought I did about parenting), yet felt "confident" in saying I'm an idiot. I was just pointing out your hypocrisy.

So, a guy who says that non-parents are qualified to critique parents, then backs this argument up by saying that he was a de facto parent and then therefore qualified. So, my label of idiot applies in two ways. First, you basically misreprented yourself, then tried to claim I was wrong because I was passing judgement based on your original self characterization (as a non-parent). Second, you undermined your own argument by saying that your right as a non-parent to criticize comes from your experience in a parental role.

I hate kids. Specifically other people's kids. I have one of my own though, and he has been properly acclimated to function in society without causing a disturbance to others - specifically on airplanes and in restaurants. He is better behaved than most adults in similar situations I think. Maybe that is because their parents raised them wrong as well. It is not difficult to create a functioning young person though as a parent, but it does involve discapline, fear of punishment and a 3DS/Iphone.

I just don't get it. How is this any different than anything else that's annoying in life and that you have to deal with when you go into public? How is it any different than that guy on his phone who bumps into you on the street? Or the dude who cut you off on the way to the store? Or the person in the store who's blocking exactly the item you need to purchase, and can't make up their mind about what they want? These are instances you come across with in your life as a human being. It's annoying and frustrating, but honestly there's no reason to be a complete dick over it. Yeah i have my opinions about these people like anyone else, but a little patience goes a long way. If you feel the need to publicly shame someone, insult someone, or directly shove you're opinion down their throat, you're an asshole first and foremost.

Is it really that difficult to understand that some kids are just a pain in the ass sometimes? That not every instance of life can be completely under your control? I don't think you need to have children to be able to empathize with the struggles it presents. If the kid is whining, crying, and carrying on for an extended period of time and the parent refuses to do anything, I can see that as a reason to be upset. But i still don't think its appropriate for you to confront that person with your narrow opinion. You have no idea what any stranger is currently going through in their life, be it that day, week or year. Get over yourself. It really is a very minor inconvenience.

Jim_Callahan:Slightly more realistically, the peanut gallery probably expects you to drop all of your groceries and immediately run into the parking lot, so as to save them from having to deal with the spectacle. But it's not always that simple;

Dear random internet guy;

It's exactly that simple. Note how your car has child locks?

Step 1: "Hey, passerby, could you watch my cart a minute?"

Step 2: Put kid in car. Crack windows.

Step 3: "I will back in 15 minutes, you'd better be quiet by then or we're going home." Lock doors.

Step 4: Return to cart. Check out.

Actual Step 5: Get arrested for child abandonment when someone notices unattended children, locked in a car, in a grocery store parking lot. Dude, our parents may have done this when we were kids but unless you've been under a rock, this is a HUGE bad idea. You can't even leave a dog in a parked car anymore. I can't even pump gas at a station without using the pay-at-the-pump, because I'd have to haul two kids out of their car seats and into the station to pay.

Of course non-parents are allowed to have opinions on how to rear human mini-beasts.It's just that hvaing an opinoin and having a valid opinion is two different things.And having an opinion and loudly voicing that opinion is two different things.

See, if you think blue is a better color for a car than yellow, that's perfectly okay. Going up to every yellow-colored car you see and loudly proclaiming that they suck at owning cars is still stupid.

And, if you think that it sucks that your your car has four wheels and that it would be better if it had three that is perfectly within your right. You're wrong, but so are we all at some point or another. Not voicing your very very stupid opinion will help you convince others that you are not very very stupid. So please keep your mouth shut.

Jim_Callahan:Slightly more realistically, the peanut gallery probably expects you to drop all of your groceries and immediately run into the parking lot, so as to save them from having to deal with the spectacle. But it's not always that simple;

Dear random internet guy;

It's exactly that simple. Note how your car has child locks?

Step 1: "Hey, passerby, could you watch my cart a minute?"

Step 2: Put kid in car. Crack windows.

Step 3: "I will back in 15 minutes, you'd better be quiet by then or we're going home." Lock doors.

Step 4: Return to cart. Check out.

Step 5: Kid still fussing?

y: Go home. Shopping trip's over. Make it clear to the kid why the shopping trip is over.n: Return to shopping.

Seriously, man, raising a kid is not rocket science. Any idiot can do it, many idiots do do it, and statistically at least half those idiots are doing it better than you are. Well, your kid is throwing fits in public without first suffering pain or injury, so let's be realistic: 9/10 of idiots are doing it better than you.

Sincerely,

One of the people that has to deal with the consequences of your poor decisions when they hit the education system

a: You're on the way to the ER seeking treatment for kid's dehydaration and or heat stroke?

jfivealive:Is it really that difficult to understand that some kids are just a pain in the ass sometimes?

Sure, but you'd have to be living on Mars to not know that there is a special kind of parent out there who just doesn't give a crap about how much disruption their kids are causing. Example: kid on airplane recently who went up and down the aisle knocking over people's drinks. Over and over. Did mom give a crap? Hah. Little Timmy is just being creative, why are you trying to stifle him you bad, bad person.

Jim_Callahan:Slightly more realistically, the peanut gallery probably expects you to drop all of your groceries and immediately run into the parking lot, so as to save them from having to deal with the spectacle. But it's not always that simple;

Dear random internet guy;

It's exactly that simple. Note how your car has child locks?

Step 1: "Hey, passerby, could you watch my cart a minute?"

Step 2: Put kid in car. Crack windows.

Step 3: "I will back in 15 minutes, you'd better be quiet by then or we're going home." Lock doors.

Here in the Sunshine state, that's a second degree misdemeanor with up to a $500 fine and 60 days in jail as penalties. Hope that shopping trip was worth it to you.

Jim_Callahan:Slightly more realistically, the peanut gallery probably expects you to drop all of your groceries and immediately run into the parking lot, so as to save them from having to deal with the spectacle. But it's not always that simple;

Dear random internet guy;

It's exactly that simple. Note how your car has child locks?

Step 1: "Hey, passerby, could you watch my cart a minute?"

Step 2: Put kid in car. Crack windows.

Step 3: "I will back in 15 minutes, you'd better be quiet by then or we're going home." Lock doors.

Step 4: Return to cart. Check out.

Step 5: Kid still fussing?

y: Go home. Shopping trip's over. Make it clear to the kid why the shopping trip is over.n: Return to shopping.

Seriously, man, raising a kid is not rocket science. Any idiot can do it, many idiots do do it, and statistically at least half those idiots are doing it better than you are. Well, your kid is throwing fits in public without first suffering pain or injury, so let's be realistic: 9/10 of idiots are doing it better than you.

Sincerely,

One of the people that has to deal with the consequences of your poor decisions when they hit the education system

Mugato:I have a niece and nephew I take out sometimes and I've never had any problems with their throwing a tantrum or acting up. Take some parenting classes, get a nanny or go to the nearest PetSmart and buy a muzzle. Failing all of that, don't get all indignant when someone expresses annoyance at your shrieking spawn.No one should yell at you or anything but don't get all uppity if someone's natural reaction is to look annoyed in your direction.

Get a nanny? Yes, if your child EVER throws a tantrum, borrow money from your parents and get a nanny.

// Oh you're NOT a parent? I am going to die of a heart attach from not suprise// Please do not reproduce

MycroftHolmes:Albinoman: No, not at all. You made that statement after copying my post, who else would it be to? Your statement was to imply my lack of understanding of what it's like to be a parent. I've been there, she's now long gone and I'm still childless. I countered by basically saying you know nothing about me (like you thought I did about parenting), yet felt "confident" in saying I'm an idiot. I was just pointing out your hypocrisy.

So, a guy who says that non-parents are qualified to critique parents, then backs this argument up by saying that he was a de facto parent and then therefore qualified. So, my label of idiot applies in two ways. First, you basically misreprented yourself, then tried to claim I was wrong because I was passing judgement based on your original self characterization (as a non-parent). Second, you undermined your own argument by saying that your right as a non-parent to criticize comes from your experience in a parental role.

So, yeah, idiot applies.

First, thanks for admitting you were originally passing judgment this time instead of claiming it was just some "declarative statement" about no one like you did before. I mean really, anyone could see that.

I don't really think it's a hard concept to grasp that while having no children of my own I have had to play that role. I don't see anywhere where I stated otherwise. Feel free to quote me. My opinions about screaming brats and their shiatty parents have never changed. What you don't get is that I did it with out any prior knowledge, you just go into it blind cause you don't have a choice and what that means is what parents think they know through experience really doesn't count for much. You're mostly programmed for it, so the observations of those without children are perfectly valid.

The public temper tantrums aren't a problem because they will happen to most kids at some point. I just carry on with my business.

It really grinds my gears when it is the parents with <5 yr olds at the Dark Knight (or worse: "Ted" - that Mark Wahlberg movie with the talking teddy bear) matinee or the mommy club with infants at the Hobbit midnight premiere. Also the parents with their elementary schoolers at Wal-Mart at 11:30 on a school night. There are age-appropriate activities that set children up for success. When you become a parent (like we are) you give up your college-aged lifestyle as part of the trade-off.

farm machine:Isn't parenting nothing more than trial by fire? Somehow I doubt that by having a child an individual magically becomes a parenting expert. They know how they deal with their children. Nothing more, nothing less. If I went out and purchased a skill saw, lathe, planer and other assorted carpentry tools that doesn't automatically transform me into a master craftsmen. Same with children and parenting. Other people's input will help you hone your skills. Just because you may not agree with or like what is being offered doesn't mean that it doesn't work. It may be that it just doesn't work for you. Both sides. Get over it.

Parenting is very much a honed skill that only comes by experience. One child doesn't exactly makes an expert, however after three I have discovered I can spot a parent of an only child from 20 yards. I don't mean mom/dad with only one child, I mean I can tell if mom/dad is out with only child or out with the baby while the older kids are at school. Kids are all very different and yet when it comes to basic needs they are very similar. Every time a child screams in a store is situational and no blanket response should be thrown out if you really don't know. It does bother me when a baby is crying because the baby can't control his/her environment and needs something, whether it be food, a changing or is simply tired and can't fall asleep. An experienced parent can tell by the cry, a new mom will try to rush through shopping instead of helping the child. The mom is the blog handled it well, keep going mom. The cases that bother me the most are where I have witnessed the parent inflicting pain on the child for doing nothing wrong before the child started crying out and the parent thens yells at the child for crying. The worst one I witnessed was a dad who squeezed his daughters arm for singing a made up song about how much he meant to her ON FATHERS' DAY. It was the only time I wanted to hit a parent for their parenting skills. Don't get me wrong, if I don't know for a certainty why the child is screaming or crying I don't let myself even think anything in one direction or the other, nor do I offer unsolicited advice. Folks with multiple children and/or grandchildren have honed their skills if they really spent some time with their children and have a wealth of knowledge to be shared. The first step is learning to listen to the child.

Jim_Callahan:Slightly more realistically, the peanut gallery probably expects you to drop all of your groceries and immediately run into the parking lot, so as to save them from having to deal with the spectacle. But it's not always that simple;Dear random internet guy;It's exactly that simple. Note how your car has child locks?Not everyone has a car.

Step 1: "Hey, passerby, could you watch my cart a minute?"No he can't. And having to stand next to a cart for ten minutes surely is more irritating than listening to a kid crying over at the other isle.

Step 2: Put kid in car. Crack windows.What car? And a three year old can open that window by himself so you won't have to.

Step 3: "I will back in 15 minutes, you'd better be quiet by then or we're going home." Lock doors.A locked door is hardly an obstacle for a smart three-year old. And he's not going to sit quietly in the car (if you have one). He's going to rip everything on the inside to shreds and draw on everything he can't destroy. If he doesn't have something to draw with replace "draw" with "engrave using your sunglasses".

Step 4: Return to cart. Check out.Finally something that I can do.

Step 5: Kid still fussing?y: Go home. Shopping trip's over. Make it clear to the kid why the shopping trip is over.If I was to stop shopping every time the kid is crying I'd never get to shop anything. Do you expect all parents to grow/gather/hunt their own food?

n: Return to shopping.Seriously, man, raising a kid is not rocket science. Any idiot can do it, many idiots do do it, and statistically at least half those idiots are doing it better than you are. Well, your kid is throwing fits in public without first suffering pain or injury, so let's be realistic: 9/10 of idiots are doing it better than you.Every parent you see shopping with a one-four year old kid who isn't having a tantrum is probably having a good shopping trip, not a non-tantrumy kid.

Sincerely, One of the people that has to deal with the consequences of your poor decisions when they hit the education systemNo way you're reflected enough about kids to be a teacher. So that is a blatant lie. Either that or you're a janitor.

jfivealive:I just don't get it. How is this any different than anything else that's annoying in life and that you have to deal with when you go into public? How is it any different than that guy on his phone who bumps into you on the street? Or the dude who cut you off on the way to the store? Or the person in the store who's blocking exactly the item you need to purchase, and can't make up their mind about what they want? These are instances you come across with in your life as a human being. It's annoying and frustrating, but honestly there's no reason to be a complete dick over it. Yeah i have my opinions about these people like anyone else, but a little patience goes a long way. If you feel the need to publicly shame someone, insult someone, or directly shove you're opinion down their throat, you're an asshole first and foremost.

Is it really that difficult to understand that some kids are just a pain in the ass sometimes? That not every instance of life can be completely under your control? I don't think you need to have children to be able to empathize with the struggles it presents. If the kid is whining, crying, and carrying on for an extended period of time and the parent refuses to do anything, I can see that as a reason to be upset. But i still don't think its appropriate for you to confront that person with your narrow opinion. You have no idea what any stranger is currently going through in their life, be it that day, week or year. Get over yourself. It really is a very minor inconvenience.

Some people may think that the parents are struggling needlessly. Like, why take 3 young kids on an 8 hour flight at all? Why do you have to bring your 2 YO to a restaurant? Why is mommy all alone in a grocery store with 2 babies and a giant shopping list? Why do 10 mommies with 20 little kids feel obligated to congregate at the Starbucks on 12th and Hudson for four farking hours at a time - a Starbucks that used to be the best chick-watching place in the known universe before the yuppie mommy mafia took it over?Some people may dig kids, but hate mommies.Some people.

As a new parent, I am very aware of my surroundings. I would never stay in a store if my baby was having a meltdown. You take her outside and if there's no hope of calming down, you go home. Sure it's inconvenient, but rolling the dice is part of being a parent. You take your chances, and many times it's good with a lot of people smiling and saying hi to you and your baby. But on those bad days you pack it up and go home. Very very simple.

HaywoodJablonski:The woman in the article was disciplining her child. Isn't that what most of you untouchables (childless and usually mateless people) want her to do?

/Stoke, stoke...

Yes. Imagine if the woman had caved and given her kid what he wanted? I guess it boils down to do you want one tantrum today, or a tantrum every week for the rest of the kid's childhood?

I guess non-parent people just don't want a tantrum where *they* can hear it and screw everyone else who has to deal with the bad-behavior-reinforcing-action you want the parent to take for your own temporary benefit.

Every jackass is an expert on parenting before they have any kids of their own. When they do, they discover that parenting is not as simple or as black-and-white as they thought. Moreover, they discover that their priority is always the safety, discipline, and well-being of their child, over the comfort, convenience, and opinions of random passersby.

Except discipline creates comfort and conveniences for a passerby. Lack of discipline fosters opinions in a passerby.

The problem is that non-parents too often equate "discipline" with "quiet and meekly behaved at all times." It's not so.

Sometimes a parent disciplining a child results in explosive outbursts and tantrums. Sometimes it's because the child wants something (candy, a toy, or to go somewhere else) and the parent is holding firm in saying no. It's easy to placate a child and prevent tantrums by giving them what they want all the time, but that is not discipline.

What you perceive as "lack of discipline" may in fact be the parent disciplining their child, asserting their authority and teaching the child that they do not always get everything they want, and that a tantrum is not an effective way of influencing their parents' actions. Despite what you think, parents are not oblivious to their child throwing a tantrum - they are painfully aware of it and likely embarrassed - but they are dealing with it in the best way they know how and trying to discourage (not reward) that kind of behavior.

ph0rk:Some parents have very well behaved children that do not annoy other adults when in public. If this does not describe your children and you persist in taking them out in public, you are bad and you should feel bad.

Lol, no. Sometimes children are well behaved in public. But no children are always well behaved in public. You are wrong, and you should feel wrong.

Jim_Callahan:Slightly more realistically, the peanut gallery probably expects you to drop all of your groceries and immediately run into the parking lot, so as to save them from having to deal with the spectacle. But it's not always that simple;

Dear random internet guy;

It's exactly that simple. Note how your car has child locks?

Step 1: "Hey, passerby, could you watch my cart a minute?"

Step 2: Put kid in car. Crack windows.

Step 3: "I will back in 15 minutes, you'd better be quiet by then or we're going home." Lock doors.

Step 4: Return to cart. Check out.

Step 5: Kid still fussing?

y: Go home. Shopping trip's over. Make it clear to the kid why the shopping trip is over.n: Return to shopping.

Seriously, man, raising a kid is not rocket science. Any idiot can do it, many idiots do do it, and statistically at least half those idiots are doing it better than you are. Well, your kid is throwing fits in public without first suffering pain or injury, so let's be realistic: 9/10 of idiots are doing it better than you.

Sincerely,

One of the people that has to deal with the consequences of your poor decisions when they hit the education system

One flaw with your brilliant plan. If your kid is young enough to throw a tantrum, they are too young to be in a car by themselves. Most states have a law against it.

Everything that our parents used to do to us in public is now illegal. It happens, get over it.

flucto:jfivealive: Is it really that difficult to understand that some kids are just a pain in the ass sometimes?

Sure, but you'd have to be living on Mars to not know that there is a special kind of parent out there who just doesn't give a crap about how much disruption their kids are causing. Example: kid on airplane recently who went up and down the aisle knocking over people's drinks. Over and over. Did mom give a crap? Hah. Little Timmy is just being creative, why are you trying to stifle him you bad, bad person.

I agree. And that person's an asshole but I don't believe its the norm, and you must not believe that either judging by your use of adjectives. So why is the response always that the person you run into is a bad parent? The behavior could be ranging to speaking loudly in a restaurant all the way up to what you described, yet the reaction is the same. Those are the people I'm talking about. Those are the assholes.

Albinoman:MycroftHolmes: Albinoman: No, not at all. You made that statement after copying my post, who else would it be to? Your statement was to imply my lack of understanding of what it's like to be a parent. I've been there, she's now long gone and I'm still childless. I countered by basically saying you know nothing about me (like you thought I did about parenting), yet felt "confident" in saying I'm an idiot. I was just pointing out your hypocrisy.

So, a guy who says that non-parents are qualified to critique parents, then backs this argument up by saying that he was a de facto parent and then therefore qualified. So, my label of idiot applies in two ways. First, you basically misreprented yourself, then tried to claim I was wrong because I was passing judgement based on your original self characterization (as a non-parent). Second, you undermined your own argument by saying that your right as a non-parent to criticize comes from your experience in a parental role.

So, yeah, idiot applies.

First, thanks for admitting you were originally passing judgment this time instead of claiming it was just some "declarative statement" about no one like you did before. I mean really, anyone could see that.

I don't really think it's a hard concept to grasp that while having no children of my own I have had to play that role. I don't see anywhere where I stated otherwise. Feel free to quote me. My opinions about screaming brats and their shiatty parents have never changed. What you don't get is that I did it with out any prior knowledge, you just go into it blind cause you don't have a choice and what that means is what parents think they know through experience really doesn't count for much. You're mostly programmed for it, so the observations of those without children are perfectly valid.

Oh, it was a declarative statement. I set forth two objective conditions, and allowed you to pick which one applied.I just chose not to go down the rabbit hole of trying to argue semantics with you when there were more amusing lines of argument.

So, let me see if I can get this straight-your original statement was that you don't need to be a parent to see bad parenting, when challenged you acknowledged that you essentially were a parent, then basically back up your argument by saying that when you were a parent, you didn't really now how to do it, but were able to do it based on programming.

So, your current contention is that parenting is innate and instinctive, and that you do not ever learn anything about parenting based on experience. So, let me ask you, in your time as a parent, did you learn anything about how to deal with the kids, did you alter the way you interacted with them? Did you learn what worked and what didn't based on trial and error, or did you, from day one, automatically know how to handle them?

jfivealive:I agree. And that person's an asshole but I don't believe its the norm, and you must not believe that either judging by your use of adjectives. So why is the response always that the person you run into is a bad parent? The behavior could be ranging to speaking loudly in a restaurant all the way up to what you described, yet the reaction is the same. Those are the people I'm talking about. Those are the assholes.

I think you might be missing the flip side of the argument. For the most part, people understand and don't say much. The assholes who show up to lecture people are the minority, just as genuine asshole parents are. It doesn't happen that often but the discussion of it obviously strikes a nerve on both sides.

Unlike dog owners, who all need to be ground into free meatloaf and fed to the poor.

HEY EVERYONE, Freudian Slipknot just found an article in a medical journal about parents being dumbasses. This means that all parents are stupid, FS is an expert on child rearing, and all of your arguments are invalid.

jayhawk88:The twins in public thing is one of the weirdest phenomenon ever. I can't say we ever had a "strangers touching" problem, but just everywhere, everyone has to know "do they run in your family" or "are they identical". It does lessen the older they get, though.

How much older? I'm 46 and random strangers still feel the need to comment on my breasts.

chubby muppet:As a new parent, I am very aware of my surroundings. I would never stay in a store if my baby was having a meltdown. You take her outside and if there's no hope of calming down, you go home. Sure it's inconvenient, but rolling the dice is part of being a parent. You take your chances, and many times it's good with a lot of people smiling and saying hi to you and your baby. But on those bad days you pack it up and go home. Very very simple.

It's not that simple. Nothing ever is. If your toddler is having a tantrum because he doesn't want to be there, leaving immediately effectively teaches him a quick way to get out of an undesirable situation. Continuing to shop may make other shoppers uncomfortable, but it teaches the kid that he doesn't get to dictate the agenda. It depends on the individual kid, of course. There's no simple answer that will make everyone happy.

chubby muppet:As a new parent, I am very aware of my surroundings. I would never stay in a store if my baby was having a meltdown. You take her outside and if there's no hope of calming down, you go home. Sure it's inconvenient, but rolling the dice is part of being a parent. You take your chances, and many times it's good with a lot of people smiling and saying hi to you and your baby. But on those bad days you pack it up and go home. Very very simple.

Grocery stores are the last place on earth I would expect peace and quiet. Who cares? Your crying baby is drowning out the Billy Joel song on the Muzak machine, so thanks for that. You know what's more annoying in a grocery store? The husband/boyfriend who just stands with the cart in front of the tomatoes, staring at his blackberry, while the wife/girlfriend runs around doing the actual shopping. fark that guy. Useless.

I do feel like I should at least point out that the author of this blog is somebody who declined to immunize his children against Hepatitis B because only people who have promiscuous sex get Hepatitis B.

chubby muppet:As a new parent, I am very aware of my surroundings. I would never stay in a store if my baby was having a meltdown. You take her outside and if there's no hope of calming down, you go home. Sure it's inconvenient, but rolling the dice is part of being a parent. You take your chances, and many times it's good with a lot of people smiling and saying hi to you and your baby. But on those bad days you pack it up and go home. Very very simple.

I have two small kids and a full time job. I have a two-hour window every day where I can get some shopping done. sually when I spend that two-hour window shopping rather than teaching my three-year old to read, playing with the kids or just going for a stroll it means that I need something from the store in order to have something to eat. Just going home is not really an option. Woe be unto me if the kids need new clothes, shoes, or if I just want to get something for myself, that's filling up my day. I simply don't have enough spare time while the kids are awake to abandon planned shopping trips because of a small tantrum. The tantrum will fade within a few minutes usually, and most people understand what is happening and are fine with it.My inconvenience at having to go home because of the tantrum is surely as bad as the inconvenience the 10% of the passersbys who care suffer from having to listen to a kid scream about dinosaur cupcakes for two minutes.

And my youngest is too young for the three year old elder brother to care for at home alone. And I can't really go anywhere while they're asleep. And I don't have a babysitter, and have never had one (for three years). No relatives live nearby and my friends are not really child-rearing people. They could probably have fun with the kids and give them food, but can't change diapers. And also they probably don't want to be babysitters since they have full-time jobs and stuff to do. So if the kids are home, so am I.

Conclusion: I'm sorry if people think my kids are being loud (they usually aren't, at least not for long) but it will last until it stops.

flucto:I think you might be missing the flip side of the argument. For the most part, people understand and don't say much. The assholes who show up to lecture people are the minority, just as genuine asshole parents are. It doesn't happen that often but the discussion of it obviously strikes a nerve on both sides.

Unlike dog owners, who all need to be ground into free meatloaf and fed to the poor.

You need some more meat to grind in there to make good meatloaf. I think a touch of ground cyclists will do also.