Dpasek,I read your posting and at first was thinking, "what the h..."? Then I read your posted quote from my post and realized...I made a terrible mistake in my posting.I meant to say, "elbows should not go beyond toe".Not hands, elbows. My only excuse is that I was thinking of the exercise I was describing when I was typing and how the hands will not project very far because you're front toe is against the wall and...I typed what I typed.And it was wrong. And I apologize. I really, really need to learn to go back and re-read what I typed out before I hit "submit". I've gotten in SO much trouble by not doing that over the years.

Other than that, I have to agree with everything you posted.

I'm going to shut up now, before I dig myself in any deeper. (read through twice)My apologies for my mix up.

I thought that it was possible that some ‘small frame’ practitioners may advocate the hands not extending beyond the front toes, e.g. see the picture of Push in this thread: viewtopic.php?f=7&t=1533

I did not know if you practice ‘small frame’ since you have a background in other styles besides what the Yang family teaches, although the Yang family seems to prefer big and extended postures.

I realize that mistakes are easy to make when writing posts, and that even if we carefully re-read what we write, it is still easy to miss errors (we know what we intend to say, so we tend to gloss over things that are not glaringly wrong).

IT IS OK, THERE IS NO MISATKE IF YOU DO THE RIGHT THING NEXT/NEXTHING RIGHT...CHANGE WITH A CHANGE IS THE YAIJI PRINCIPLE. BESIDES, YOU WAS JUST "TESTING US" REMEMBER? OR ARE YOU HAVING A SENIOR MOMENT? TAKE YOU TIME BUT HURRY BACK

Thanks. I am highly embarrassed but I've done worse things in my day.My students tell me I even made that gaff at my Wednesday night class this week. Somehow that got into my head and I couldn't shake it, I guess.They have heard and seen me show this idea before, so they knew what I meant and didn't say anything.When one of them saw this thread, they couldn't help themselves and called me to tell me that I had said the same thing at the class that night.I said, "No! Really?" but she assured me I had.Then I heard it again from another student.Sigh.It gets weirder though...I have a friend who is a certified instructor in the Wu/Hao style of Tai Chi Chuan.I emailed him, red faced, to tell him about my blunder so he could laugh at me.I thought he'd get a real kick out of it. I just got an email back from him and he was some confused...Because apparently in Wu/Hao style TCC he trains (through Master Jimmy Wong) they teach not to extend the hands beyond the feet.So he's confused as to why I feel I made a mistake! I asked what their reasoning is behind it, but as of now I haven't received a reply.If I find out, I'll certainly convey it as best as I can here.Maybe I wasn't so far off..?

I studied Wu Chien Chuan style Tai Chi Chuan through the Wu's Tai Chi Chuan Academy in Detroit from 1988 to 1997, studying under disciples of Si Kung Wu Kwong "Eddie" Yu. Wu style is small frame Tai Chi Chuan.But they definitely extend their hands beyond their feet!!! In fact, I am going to give a demonstration of Wu style Tai Chi Chuan at the Louisville Tai Chi Day event sponsored by the Louisville Yang Cheng Fu Center at E.P. Tom Sawyer Park on September 22nd. (Shameless plug now over)I'm not very good at it, truth be told, but I must look good doing it. Honestly though, I think I'm probably the only person in Kentucky who has studied the style. At least, if there is someone else I haven't been able to find them in over fifteen years. But I'm honored that Carl thought to ask me and I will do my best not to fall down while I perform the Long Form up to the first Cross Hands (time is very limited for presenters).

HI BOB, THAT MAKE GOOD TAIJI SENSE FOR "SONG THE SHOULDER AND 'SINK' THE ELBOW". I THINK THAT WILL KEEP THE ELBOW'S PHYSICAL LIMITATION IN CHECK AND NOT TO OVER REACHING BEYOND TOE. THAT MIGHT CAUSE THE EQUILIBRIUM TO LEAN.

Bob Ashmore wrote:It gets weirder though...I have a friend who is a certified instructor in the Wu/Hao style of Tai Chi Chuan.I emailed him, red faced, to tell him about my blunder so he could laugh at me.I thought he'd get a real kick out of it. I just got an email back from him and he was some confused...Because apparently in Wu/Hao style TCC he trains (through Master Jimmy Wong) they teach not to extend the hands beyond the feet.So he's confused as to why I feel I made a mistake! I asked what their reasoning is behind it, but as of now I haven't received a reply.If I find out, I'll certainly convey it as best as I can here.Maybe I wasn't so far off..?

THE HAND ALSO HAVE ITS OWN PHYSICAL LIMITATION. FOR TAIJI BEGINNING IT IS A GOOD IDEA TO RECOGNIZE THIS. TO KEEP CLOSER TO ONES "CENTER EQUILIBRIUM" BEFORE ONE CAN LEARN HIGHER SKILL OF THE YIN/YANG CHANGING. AS TAIJI WE MOVE IN THE MANNER OF CIRCLE. AT ANY GIVING CIRCLE THERE MUST BE A CENTER. LIKE THE EARTH'S CENTER TO KEEP ALL THE EARTHING FROM FALLING AND OR FLING OFF THE EARTH. SOME CAN GO BEYOND THE OTHER BUT IT IS STILL HOLDING BACK BY THE CENTER'S PULL. 99.5 % OF US ARE DOING THE CIRCLING WITH OUT A "CENTER" IN MIND (THAT LITTLE DOT IN THE MIDDLE OF THE CIRCLE). SO IT IS BETTER TO TRAIN WIHTIN ITS LIMITATION BEFORE WE CAN PUSH THE ENVELOPE TO CHANGING WITH A CHANGE, THE ESSENCE OF TAIJI. WHEN ONE CAN REACHED THE LEVEL TO APPLY THE "8 GATES" FORCE IN ANY SINGLE GIVING MOVEMENT WITHOUT THE THINKING, THE HAND CAN LOOK EXTEND BEYOND THE FEET. BUT ITS EQUILIBRIUM HAVE DONE ITS JOB TO SEND ME AIRBORNE. AND KEEP ME WONDERING WHAT THE HECK...?

Bob Ashmore wrote:I studied Wu Chien Chuan style Tai Chi Chuan through the Wu's Tai Chi Chuan Academy in Detroit from 1988 to 1997, studying under disciples of Si Kung Wu Kwong "Eddie" Yu. Wu style is small frame Tai Chi Chuan.But they definitely extend their hands beyond their feet!!! In fact, I am going to give a demonstration of Wu style Tai Chi Chuan at the Louisville Tai Chi Day event sponsored by the Louisville Yang Cheng Fu Center at E.P. Tom Sawyer Park on September 22nd. (Shameless plug now over)I'm not very good at it, truth be told, but I must look good doing it.

IF YOU DO THE WU STYLE IS SMALL FRAME. HOW CAN THE HANDS NOT EXTEND BEYOND THE FEET? DO YOU USE ELBOW AND SHOULDER STRIKE EXCLUSIVELY? (JUST TRY TO GET A CLEAR PICTURE WHAT THE SMALL FRAME LOOK LIKE)WELL BOB, DID YOU LOOK GOOD IN YOUR LOUISVILLE YANG CENTER DEMONSTRATION? MORE IMPORTANTLY, DID YOU ENJOY DOING IT? ARE YOU GOING TO PUT SOMETHING ON YOUTUBE?

CIAO YSLIMP.S. MY ALL CAPITALS IS NOT FOR SCREAMING, IT'S FOR BEING A CAPITALIST.

Bob Ashmore wrote:This is Cheng and Deng. One leg pushes, one leg pulls. One leg sends, one leg receives. One is Yin, one is Yang. Etc, etc. In this way your power, your energy, is generated by your legs.

HI BOB,

I FOUND THIS THREAD OF YOUR ( SEPT.4, 2012 8:00 PM ) HAVE A LOT TO OFFER AND PONDER ON LINE FOR LINE FOR ALL THERE IS...THE REFINEMENTS AND I LIKE TO START WITH THIS LINE. I LIKE THE WORD OF "SENDS AND RECEIVES".I GET A SENSATION OF AWARENESS OF BEING.A SENSE OF MIND AND PHYSICAL TOGETHER IN ACTION. " PUSHS AND PULLS" GIVING A FOCUS OR ZERO IN ON JUST THE PHYSICAL ACTION AS IF A NO BRAINIER. BUT "ONE IS YIN" "ONE IS YANG". ETC, ETC. IS THIS MEAN ONE LEG IS ALL YIN AND THE OTHER IS ALL YANG? HOW DOES THE ETC, ETC. PLAY IN THE TAIJI'S CLAIM WITHIN YIN THERE MUST HAVE YANG AND WITHIN YANG THERE MUST HAVE YIN.?

Hello everyone,Sorry I've been away so long. I've had an interesting couple of months.Some of my students were training for Association ranking and I've been giving non-stop lessons to help them out.Also, I have been shuffling my regular class schedule around quite a bit due to circumstances beyond my control.I have finally settled on teaching in my basement for the winter, since I simply cannot find any other place to do it that is reasonably priced (with all the vacant retail spaces in my town you'd think someone would want to make at least some money, but apparently not). My basement is not the best place in the world to teach Tai Chi, it's unfinished, it's not very tall (it is a basement). But it does have the virtue of being free for me to use (well, I'm already paying for it so no extra cost to use it), it has enough open floor space (75 feet long, 22.5 feet wide area that we use, no support poles in that space) and it is heated. It is only a basement on two sides of my house, so it has it's own entrance leading to the driveway. No one has to troop through the main living area to get in or out. And at least until the end of January when my son moves back in there will be a bathroom available to use. By then I'm hoping to have found someplace else. If not, folks who need to go will have to troop up to the top of the stairs. Also, my first grand child was born Monday. I've been a tad busy.

Let's see...Yslim,If you read the quote you quoted, I corrected that hands do go beyond feet in both styles I've trained.My "rule of thumb" is not to extend elbows beyond the front of the forward foot. Others will disagree and if that works for them that's fine with me but it doesn't work for me. This keeps me from being over extended. I've found some fleeting movements that do go a bit beyond that; Hand Strums the Lute, Needle At Sea Bottom, Apparent Close up. It happens during the transitions into them, when you would be being pulled forward by the arm by your opponent you do extend a bit farther forward. If you get into any YCF style posture where the arms are extended, then site down your elbows to your feet, I believe you'll find that if you do extend them farther than that you will have to straighten your arm too much.As I demonstrate to my students, if you extend your arms too much farther you can be more easily plucked off of your root because it is much more difficult to engage the fulcrums and levers of your arm joints in unison with sinking in order to break the energy of your opponent.Also, if you extend your elbow that far out during a strike you will allow much more of the impact rebound to come into your body. In other words, I find this very helpful for a LOT of reasons. I don't know that it's a "rule" for YCF style TCC but it is for me and when I teach I teach this to my students because it has never failed me. Again, no one else has to do this. If it doesn't work for you, it doesn't work for you.And if you do, please come push hands with me sometime and show me how that works. I'll be happy to learn something new or teach you where you're going wrong, whichever way it falls out.

Isaac888, Both hands on floor in a bow stance? That I'd love to see! Did I say that somewhere? I may have, I seem to be having problems with my body parts lately.

Stand in front of a STURDY wall in a bow stance, place the toes of your forward foot against the base of the wall.Push against the wall with both hands equally. If you're using Tai Chi Chuan principles, you should be pushing with your back leg, receiving with your front leg. Where do you feel the weight of your body in your legs?If mostly in your back leg, I consider that incorrect. Your back leg should be pushing you forward, not holding you up.If it's holding you up how can you use it to push yourself around? Your front leg should be holding your body weight off the ground, not your back leg.One leg pushes, one leg holds you up. The receiving leg is also pulling you forward but that's done with the greater trachonter pulling up and forward as your sitting your body weight down onto that leg to ...Hold you up.

Both legs have a job, a separate but equal job. Each leg should be doing it's own job.Out of time, I have to go see my grand daughter.

Bob Ashmore wrote:Hello everyone,Sorry I've been away so long. I've had an interesting couple of months.

Also, my first grand child was born Monday. I've been a tad busy.

Let's see...Yslim,If you read the quote you quoted, I corrected that hands do go beyond feet in both styles I've trained.My "rule of thumb" is not to extend elbows beyond the front of the forward foot. Others will disagree and if that works for them that's fine with me but it doesn't work for me. This keeps me from being over extended. I've found some fleeting movements that do go a bit beyond that; Hand Strums the Lute, Needle At Sea Bottom, Apparent Close up. It happens during the transitions into them, when you would be being pulled forward by the arm by your opponent you do extend a bit farther forward. If you get into any YCF style posture where the arms are extended, then site down your elbows to your feet, I believe you'll find that if you do extend them farther than that you will have to straighten your arm too much.As I demonstrate to my students, if you extend your arms too much farther you can be more easily plucked off of your root because it is much more difficult to engage the fulcrums and levers of your arm joints in unison with sinking in order to break the energy of your opponent.Also, if you extend your elbow that far out during a strike you will allow much more of the impact rebound to come into your body. In other words, I find this very helpful for a LOT of reasons. I don't know that it's a "rule" for YCF style TCC but it is for me and when I teach I teach this to my students because it has never failed me. Again, no one else has to do this. If it doesn't work for you, it doesn't work for you.And if you do, please come push hands with me sometime and show me how that works. I'll be happy to learn something new or teach you where you're going wrong, whichever way it falls out. Bob

Hi Bob,

Congratulation for your first granddaughter!

"If you read the quote you quoted," . Bob, I have been talking too dame much I can't keep tract of what the heck I was barking about. and now it look like you are barking at something and I am just barking at the sound. I think I am having a senior moment. will you be so kind to me as one grandfather to another (yes I have 2 two granddaughters, Are you doing the slow form? ) and please refresh my memory what your post above is so different then what I was quote, said or disagree ?

By the way Bob, I thought Taiji is Tai Chi, just one. you cannot add anything to it and I cannot take anything away from it. why you are so stick to the "if it doesn't work for you or me" thing? Why not looking for the Taiji's "complimentary" doses? Will it work for you? just wondering...

Don't understand the procedure. Stand in front of the wall, both hands on the floor and in a bow stance? got lost there.My gypsum wall collapse. Answer please. Please.

Cheers.

Isaac

Hi Isaac, I also asked Bob the same question but in a different way.....

Re: Tai Chi on a beamby yslim » Wed Aug 29, 2012 6:36 pm

Bob Ashmore wrote:Ah, Cheng and Deng.

However, the "test" that I like to use is to have students line up in front of a wall (as flat as possible from the point of contact with their hands to the floor) in bow stance and ask them to push against the wall.Then I have them tell me where, in their feet, they feel the "weight".

Now, if you're game start pushing walls and tell me what you feel....

Bob

HI BOBI'M NEW TO THIS THING...LET ME TRY TO GET THIS STRAIGHT IN MY HEAD FIRST.."line up in front of a wall(as flat as possible from the point of contact with their hand to the floor) in bow stance and ask them to push against the wall."

ARE YOU SURE? IT SOUND LIKE A KINKY POSITION TO ME. SO SAID MY LOVEY AND SHE IS NOT "game" AS YOU REQUESTED . I AM IN THE DOG HOUSE NOW SO I REST MY CASE AND LET YOU EXPLAIN...PLEASE.

CIAO,yslim

by Bob Ashmore » Thu Aug 30, 2012 3:40 pm

Yslim,I see the problem in my explanation. Sorry to have caused you such distress!!

Stand in front of a flat wall, position yourself close enough to said wall to comfortably do a bow stance and then execute the Yang style, or Wu style, version of the form named Push.Sense for where the "weighted" feeling is in your feet while doing so.

Again, there is no trick to this. It's pretty straightforward and has taught me quite a bit, so I use it now with my students. I had them try this again last night (we've been working on it for several weeks) and I saw some amazing improvement in their postures.Bob Ashmore

Yslim,I just saw your earlier post asking about Cheng and Deng.This may help: http://www.yangfamilytaichi.com/phpBB3/ ... ?f=7&t=622It will at least give you good translations for the words.I read an article that the Louisville Yang Cheng Fu Center Director Carl Meeks handed out to his students earlier this year that referenced the two words or I would have never heard of them (Carl and I share some students and one of them shared the article with me because it said a lot about my particular passion "hips"/legs" and how to use them). I am unable at this time to find the article in question though (all of my painstakingly neatly organized Tai Chi related materials from my "office" got packed away by my wife when we found out our son, his wife and our granddaughter are moving back in, I fear I may never see them again), so I can't give you any detail on what exactly it said. I was quite impressed with it though and remembered the words as I wrote the post you referenced. Perhaps if Carl reads this he can enlighten us. I really liked the article and learned/verified quite a bit from it.My take on this is long and detailed and would most likely bore most people to tears. I am working with several people on my theories of hip/leg usage in conjunction with the waist, how it all works, why it works, how to do it, etc, but they're not really ready for public viewing yet.I am no expert on anything to do with Tai Chi Chuan, far, far, far from it in fact, but one area of particular interest and detailed study is the hips/legs/waist unification and usage during Tai Chi Chuan. Having studied (poorly, very poorly) Wu Chien Chuan style Tai Chi Chuan for a number of years with Eddie Wu's constant refrain of, "Use your hips! How can you have any power if you don't use your hips?", "Turn from the hip, the hip!", and his theory of "Three Sections, Nine Parts" of the body being drilled into me, then moving to KY and coming over to train (poorly, very poorly) Traditional Yang Family Tai Chi Chuan where "the waist" is considered the focal point. I was some confused.OK, I was completely flummoxed. My TYFTCC students all call me "hip happy", because I teach how to use the hips along with the waist. Having spent nearly 13 years working through and consolidating the idea of hips vs. waist, then figuring out that without one the other doesn't matter very much, I have finally reached a happy place where I have integrated the two styles theories and am at peace that neither is wrong.

I won't go any further with that here.As I said my "theories" are still being polished and tested by myself, my partner Jim and even by my good friend Skip who is an instructor of Wu/Hao Tai Chi Chuan with Jimmy Wong's group in TX. We're using every single Tai Chi Chuan and anatomy reference material we can get our hands on that mention either hips or waist. We've formulated some ideas and have been working with our respective groups of friends and students to see if they work out. So far, they have. But we still need to do a bit more to be sure of our conclusions. We have, perhaps, gone a bit overboard on this. But we're having fun and learning quite a lot from it, so we'll keep going.Perhaps one day we'll get it all down and present the ideas publicly.

Yslim,I knew I forgot something."Cannot add, cannot take away" and why I say "if it doesn't work for anyone else...".Again, I have studied two style of TCC with some depth, a third just on the surface.Having had the experience of changing styles I have found that not everyone agrees on what "Tai Chi Chuan" actually is.Even amongst students of the top Grand Masters of the same style there is no agreement on what Tai Chi Chuan is.Add in another style and you've now not just got a disagreement, you have a battle royal.When I first made the change between Wu Chien Chuan and Yang Cheng Fu Tai Chi Chuan, as I mentioned before, I found myself floundering in a vacuum of my own ignorance.After over ten years of daily practice of one style and feeling pretty cock-sure of myself that I knew quite a bit about Tai Chi Chuan, I suddenly found myself in the position of realizing that while I understood one flavor of the art passing well I was totally ignorant of any other flavors. I got into endless debates with students of other schools over what is "right" and what is "wrong".I would say, "What on earth do you move back weight for when pivoting your foot? Why don't you just pivot it with the weight still on it like we do in WCC style? What's the use of moving back the weight? It slows you down. You're 'retreating' and that's wrong."The replies would be wildly varied, sometimes full of anger (You don't have any idea what you're talking about!), sometimes condescending (You don't have any idea what you're talking about.) but always there was disagreement.I'm a bit older now and this is no longer my first rodeo.Rather than state absolutes (DO NOT EXTEND YOUR ELBOW PAST YOUR TOE) I speak more broadly (In my opinion, you should not extent your elbow past your toe, and here's why...).I have also had the time and put in the effort to understand both of the styles I have studied to a much greater depth.I now understand that there are many similarities and no actual differences.To me, moving into transitions using weighted pivots and unweighted pivots are now the exact same idea.Sure, you do them differently but they're still the same principle. One is simply a much larger version of the other. Once I began to say, "Oh... That's the same thing. Duh!" I began to realize that not everyone is at the level to understand that yet. Hence, the arguments.Understanding changes over time. If someone hasn't learned that yet they can't see the bigger picture the way I do now. I now understand that what I see as being "correct" and part of the exact same principle applied slightly differently will be viewed as entirely incorrect by those who do not yet comprehend this idea. So rather than make absolute statements and invite those types of arguments, I simply say, "No one else has to do it this way. If it doesn't work for you, that's fine too."Take, for example, my understanding of "fulcrums and levers" and how to make every part of my body into a series of fulcrums and levers in order to break and redirect the energy of my opponent.I see every joint as a fulcrum, every bone as a lever. I use them this way. I learned it from going to Eddie Wu's seminars, where he teaches this. I know it's legitimate Tai Chi Chuan because it came directly from my Si Kung. I don't have to wonder, I know this.But others don't. They have never heard of this before and so to them I'm wrong.I've never heard Master Yang Jun use the words "fulcrums and levers" when he describes this same principle, but I have seen him do the exact same thing as Eddie over and over again. He uses entirely different words but he teaches the exact same thing.Here, for example, is one of his explanations of the concept: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TEhuw4Wc ... plpp_videoAt one point he mentions "leverage" but he never uses the word "fulcrum".So there will be those, who have never viewed the concept as using "fulcrums and levers", who will scream, "You have no idea what you're talking about!" when I start to talk about using the fulcrums and levers in my body to do something.So, to answer the question, I am not "adding" nor am I "taking away".I'm simply saying that I don't want to get into any more arguments with someone who hasn't learned yet that there are endless ways to do or explain the same principles.I was that guy previously and, believe me, when someone questions your closely held beliefs you start telling them they don't know what they're talking.

Reading over that, I see that it may come off as a bit condescending.It's not intended that way, to be sure.However, I can't figure out a way to make it sound any better and still retain the essence. So I'll let it stand as is as I'm out of time for the day.

Bob Ashmore wrote:Yslim,I just saw your earlier post asking about Cheng and Deng. This may help: viewtopic.php?f=7&t=622It will at least give you good translations for the words.

HI BOB, I THANK YOU VERY MUCH FOR ALL YOUR TIME AND EFFORT TO NARROWING DOWN MY QUOTE THAT YOU MENTIONED. NOW THAT YOU HAVE PIN POINT IT. I WAS ASK YOU ABOUT THE YIN YANG RELATIONSHIP IN YOUR POST ABOUT CHENG AND DENG AS FOLLOW:

Re: Tai Chi on a beamby yslim » Fri Oct 05, 2012 4:48 amBob Ashmore wrote:This is Cheng and Deng. One leg pushes, one leg pulls. One leg sends, one leg receives. One is Yin, one is Yang. Etc, etc. In this way your power, your energy, is generated by your legs.

HI BOB,

I FOUND THIS THREAD OF YOUR ( SEPT.4, 2012 8:00 PM ) HAVE A LOT TO OFFER AND PONDER ON LINE FOR LINE FOR ALL THERE IS...THE REFINEMENTS AND I LIKE TO START WITH THIS LINE. I LIKE THE WORD OF "SENDS AND RECEIVES".I GET A SENSATION OF AWARENESS OF BEING.A SENSE OF MIND AND PHYSICAL TOGETHER IN ACTION. " PUSHS AND PULLS" GIVING A FOCUS OR ZERO IN ON JUST THE PHYSICAL ACTION AS IF A NO BRAINIER. BUT "ONE IS YIN" "ONE IS YANG". ETC, ETC. IS THIS MEAN ONE LEG IS ALL YIN AND THE OTHER IS ALL YANG? HOW DOES THE ETC, ETC. PLAY IN THE TAIJI'S CLAIM WITHIN YIN THERE MUST HAVE YANG AND WITHIN YANG THERE MUST HAVE YIN.?

MUCH APPRECIATED YOUR EFFORT,

CIAOYSLIM

[/quote]

I AM STILL WAITING FOR YOU TO SHARE SOME LIGHT ON THIS YIN YANG PROCESS. AND THE LINK THAT YOU POINTING TO :viewtopic.php?f=7&t=622DIDN'T SHOW ME ANYTHING THAT REMOTELY CLOSE TO WHAT I REALLY WOULD LIKE TO KNOW ABOUT YOUR POST OF THE CHENG AND DENG. MY QUOTE OF MY QUESTION WAS: BUT "ONE IS YIN" "ONE IS YANG". ETC, ETC. IS THIS MEAN ONE LEG IS ALL YIN AND THE OTHER IS ALL YANG? HOW DOES THE ETC, ETC. PLAY IN THE TAIJI'S CLAIM WITHIN YIN THERE MUST HAVE YANG AND WITHIN YANG THERE MUST HAVE YIN.? I AM NOT TRYING TO GIVE YOUR A BAD TIME OTHER THAN MY FOREVER-QUEST FOR THE YIN YANG RELATIONSHIP IN THE TAIJI PRINCIPLE. THIS ACCIDENTALLY LEAD ME RAN INTO MASTER SAM FC CHIN WHO PRACTICE HIS FAMILY MARTIAL ART "I-LIQ CHUAN" (I/YI/MIND, LIQ/LI/POWER/FORCE. IN CHINESE CHARACTER 'I- LIQ' OR 'YI LI' THE WRITING IS ALL THE SAME.) MAYBE I SHOULD SHARE SOME EXAMPLE WHAT I HAVE LEARN TO ILLUSTRATE WHAT MY QUEST IS....USING YOUR WORDS "ONE LEG PUSH, THAT IS YANG". TO PUSH IT IS BEST TO MAKE CONTACT, THAT WILL CREATING A POTENTIAL P0INT IN MY YI,THE YANG. NOW MY YI HAVE YOU ALREADY COVERED BEFORE OUR PHYSICAL BODY-THE YIN, ACTUALLY CONNECTING OR TOUCHING. AND HOPING YOU HAVE NO AWARENESS OF WHAT I HAVE DONE. THIS IS MY INITIAL ACT OF YANG, THE YI GO FIRST. THUS CAME THE WORDS "I KNOW YOU BUT YOU DON'T KNOW ME", WHAT I'M UP TO. ONCE WE CONNECTED BY TOUCHING, A "MIDDLE" WILL CREATED BETWEEN YOU AND ME. IT ALSO DEFINE WHAT IS YOUR AND MY REAL ESTATE. IF ONE OF US WALK AWAY,THEN THERE WOULD BE NO "MIDDLE" EXIST. IT IS FROM THIS POINT OF CONTACT, THE "MIDDLE"/A NO-HOLD YIN NOR YANG, THAT IS WHY IT ALSO CALL THE NEUTRAL, I PUSH WITH MY YI, THE YANG, TOWARD MY BACK SIDE/YANG SIDE, TO AVOID BEING CALL "DOUBLE WEIGHT", I ONLY USING THIS 'YANG SIDE ' PUSHING BACK' DURING THIS MOMENT OF NOW AND HERE AS A SUPPORTING ROLE THUS IT IS QUALIFY TO BE A YIN FORCE TO HELP TO STABILIZING MY MAIN PUSHING FORCE, THE YANG, FROM THE "MIDDLE"/NEUTRAL TOWARD YOUR BODY MASS CENTER. THIS CREAT A POLARITY FORCE WORKING TOGETHER AS ONENESS.THIS PART OF THE WHOLE PROCESS WILL ESTABLISH A COMPLIMENTARY TAIJI FORCE. YOU WILL HAVE A HARD TIME TO UNBALANCE ME BY TRYING TO PULL AND/OR PUSH. AS MASTER CHIN WOULD SAID : I'M ALREADY THERE. [FOR YOU TO ACT. IF YOU TRY YOU WILL FAIL BECAUSE HE IS ALREADY BACK INTO THE NEUTRAL WITHIN THE SAME BREATH FOR HIM TO GO YIN YANG ON YOU AT ANY MOMENT NOTICE BEFORE YOU CAN CHANGE YOURSELF. THUS HE WILL SMILE AND SAID " YOUR FUTURE [MOMENT TO CHANGE] IS MY PRESENT[ MOMENT OF NOW RECEIVING]. SIMPLY PUT IT, HE ALWAYS A STEP AHEAD OF YOU. WITH NO THINKING WHAT SHALL BE DONE. BECAUSE ANY OF YOUR FUTURE MOVEMENT IS A CLEAR SIGNAL AHEAD TO TELL HIM IN YIN YANG MORSE CODE. NOW LETS TALK ABOUT PUSH THE LEG..HOW DOES THE YIN AND YANG SIMULTANEOUSLY PROCESS OF CHANGING IN ONE PUSHING LEG AND STILL CALL YANG BUT NO YIN TO MENTION WITHIN? I SHORT CUT THIS TO SHORTEN MY STORY. THE LEG , ANY LEG WILL DO FOR NOW, HAVE 2 SIDES,THE YIN SIDE ( HAVE LESS SUN TAN) AND THE YANG SIDE(HAVE MOST OF TAN), THUS HAVE YIN AND YANG MUSCLE. THE BODY HAVE A CENTER THAT DEFINED THE BODY INTO A FRONT AND THE BACK SIDE AS WELL. WHEN I 'DROP' MY ENERGY FROM THE DAN TIEN-THE FRONT SIDE/YIN, DOWN TO THE FEET(GROUND) BY WAY OF MY YANG MUSCLE/SIDE/MERIDIAN. SIMULTANEOUSLY THE GROUND GIVES THE EARTH ENERGY BACK TO ME THEN I WILL DRAW/SUCK IT UP FROM THE FEET BACK TO DAN TIEN-YIN AND THE BACK OF THE SPINE-YANG BY WAY OF THE YIN MUSCLE/SIDE/MERIDIAN THROUGH THE PC PUMP. SINCE I USE THE YI TO DO THIS,IT IS THE YANG. BUT MY PHYSICAL LEG-YIN, ONLY PUSH AND DRAW UP TO THE 'MIDDLE', THE BODY CENTER LINE/OR AN IMAGINARY WALL IF YOU WILL, THE FRONT LEG DOES NOT PUSH PASS OVER TO THE BACK OF THIS CENTER WALL TO PUSH THE BACK LEG AND THE BACK LEG DOES NOT PUSH PASS OVER TO THE FRONT OF THAT WALL TO PUSH THE FRONT LEG. THE FRONT DO THE FRONT THING PERTAIN AT THE FRONT SIDE AND THE BACK DO THE BACK THING AT IT BACK SIDE. FOR WHAT EVER THEY NEED TO DO SO LONG AS BOTH CAN NOT SURVIVE WITHOUT EACH OTHER'S EFFORT TO BE IN ONENESS. THE POWER BROKER HERE IS THE CENTER WALL IN THE MIDDLE. IT CAN NOT TAKE A CUT OF ANY GAIN FROM EITHER SIDE AND CAN NOT VOTE IN FAVIOR TO EITHER SIDE. IT MAKE SURE DO NOT LET THE YIN YANG GO OVER THE CENTER WALL TO INTERFERE OR "TRY TO HELP" EACH OTHER. THE ONLY SPACE AND TIME FOR THIS YIN/YANG PUSH CAN HAPPEN IS AT THIS MIDDLE/CONTACT /TAIJI/NEUTRAL POINT, WHETHER THIS PUSH IS INTO THE POINT AND OR AWAY FROM THE POINT. THIS MIDDLE IS NITHER YIN OR YANG. IT IS ONLY TO BE THERE, AND MUST BE STAY IN THE MIDDLE, THAT IS WHY TAIJI HAVE YIN YANG, BUT YIN YANG IS NOT TAIJI. TO BE TAIJI, YIN YANG MUST BE ONE. TO BE ONE,THERE MUST HAVE THREE.[PARTS] THE THREE IS THE MIDDLE. SO THE YIN AND THE YANG CAN DO THEIR THING TOGETHER TO PRODUCE THE COMPLIMENTARY TAIJI FORCE. WHO HE DOESN'T RECOGNIZED THIS MIDDLE CAN STILL FIGH OF COURSE, BUT IT IS NO LONGER HAVING A TAIJI PRINCIPLE. IT IS STILL A MARTIAL ART BUT IS THE OTHER MARTIAL ART. IT IS STILL A GOOD ART. IT EXIST BEFORE THE TAIJI QUAN.ALL THIS HAVE MUCH TO DO WITH THE TAIJI PRINCIPLE, AS SUCH THERE IS ONLY ONE. I AM NOT QUEST FOR ANY TAIJI TECHNIQUE, STYLES, FAMILY SECRETS, OR THE TERMINOLOGIES. ALL THOSE ARE GOOD AND MANY, THEY CAN ADD AND OR SUBTRACT. BUT THE TAIJI PRINCIPLE SUCH AS IT IS. NO ONE CAN ADD OR TAKE AWAY ANYTHING FROM IT. TAIJI SECRET GUARD ITSELF. LIKE YOU OFTEN SAID " IT IS ALL IN FRONT OF YOU IN THE PLAIN SIGHT". BUT I BORN COLOR BLIND AND AN ARTIST SO I LOVE TO BROWSE, SO I STILL WOULD LIKE TO PICK YOUR BRIAN. I CAN'T BROWSE THE "iPAD" AS HI-TECH DRIVE ME NUT. SO WILL YOU BE MY " iTAIJI". THAT IS NOT A QUESTION, JUST A WISHFUL THINKING OUT LOUD.CIAO,YSLIM

Yslim.iTaiji? I like the sound of it, but I'm certainly not expert enough at Tai Chi Chuan to be one.As for Yin/Yang in Cheng/Deng.Well...It is always changing, isn't it?Always there is Yin within Yang, Yang within Yin and each becomes the other in a never ending cycle. So labeling Yin/Yang is a problem. How do you put a label on something that is constantly changing?So the question put this way is simply beyond my capacity to answer:When I push myself forward with one leg and sit onto the other, the "Yin/Yang" dynamic changes. Which is which and when do they change?The only time I can put a label on "which is which?" for the Yin/Yang dynamic is during one instant in time. I would have to freeze the movement, the energy and the intent, of a posture at one single point in time in order to be able to point at a leg, or a part of a leg, and say "This is clearly Yin. This is clearly Yang." and be able to do so with any amount of authority.Otherwise, by the time I say, "Yin here" or "Yang there" the dynamic has already changed. It is an exercise in futility. However, there is an easier way and one which is not an "Ancient Tai Chi Chuan secret".I only have to change the question very slightly to be able to start holding a conversation that is substantially the same but more easily quantifiable. I change the question to this:When I push myself forward with one leg and sit onto the other, the "empty/full" dynamic changes. Which is which and when do they change? This is a question that can be answered much more clearly. To me this is a more valuable question to ask, as it can be answered and understood without an advanced degree in Chinese Taiji theory. Which I most certainly do not have.When I posted that quote you used, "one is yin, one is yang" I was speaking "esoterically" not in concrete terms. I recognize that one is going to be classified as Yin and one as Yang, however when/where that is true for each is a constantly changing event. I find it much simpler and more productive in the long run to think about "empty/full" rather than "Yin/Yang".Again, this works for me. Others, I'm sure, will think in terms of "Yin/Yang" and can do so with ease. I simply cannot.I use "empty/full" in much the same way the teacher you mention uses "Yin/Yang", to determine where my opponent is, where he is going and what he intends to do once he gets there. So when my students begin to move, I arrive where they were going first.Not because I have "Spidey-sense", as one of my students often claims, but because I can sense where they are currently empty and where they are full.If some areas of your body are empty and you want to move, to do so you have to fill the empty spots and empty the full spots. In order to stop someone from moving, I have found it best simply to deny them the ability to reverse their empty and full. Fill their empty spots for them and they can't move unless you release them.It works the other way around, empty their full spots and again they can't move unless you release them.For me this is a much easier way to work with my opponent to achieve my goal. I simply let them tell me where they are empty and where they are full, then I control that in them. It may not be as elegant and being able to determine to the Nth degree what is Yin and what is Yang, but it works more than well enough for me.

I agree with a lot of what Bob has said, but also disagree with some, at least for my practice.

Bob Ashmore wrote:This is Cheng and Deng. One leg pushes, one leg pulls. One leg sends, one leg receives. One is Yin, one is Yang. Etc, etc. In this way your power, your energy, is generated by your legs.

I would say that the leg supports or stops, rather than pulls. I personally do not feel any pulling sensation. As for whether Cheng and Deng represent a Yin-Yang pair, my first thought was no, but no I am leaning toward yes.

I would say that the Association's method of stepping and transferring Jin from upper to lower is subtly different from others I have read about. If you do it correctly and with some speed, you will actually introduce a kind of rocking motion as the legs pass the residual energy back and forth. It is kind of the way a bouncing spring can react. In other words, even if you thrust (Deng) the energy from the back leg to the front leg, the front leg will not only act as a support (cheng), it will end up thrusting some of the energy back as the legs kind of switch roles. There really is some Yang in the Yin, and vice versa.

Also, as we transfer the external energy from lower to upper to send energy forward, some of the body parts will actually move relatively toward the rear, since the energy often travels in a sort of physical sine wave. For instance, as you guide the "waist" forward to lead the energy, the energy fills the chest slightly toward the front as the shoulders move slightly backward and the Qi "sticks to the back." The last motion then sends the chest relatively backward as it empties and the Jin fills the arms to move them forward. I think that part of this sine wave movement is made possible by the supporting/stopping motion of the front foot. In other words, even the forward thrusting entails backward motion. Also, even though I am trying to discuss parts of the movement, it is actually one overall motion. You do not consciously move things back and forth but rather create the conditions for it to happen organically.