Yes and those that choose to not believe or follow him get tortured for eternity. So how exactly is that a loving creator that wished us to come to him willingly. That's extortion at best. If I said to you, give me your car or I will kill you, then I claim in a court room that it was a fair deal since he had a choice to not give me his car. You really think that would hold up as a rational argument?
Wouldn't a loving God who actually wants us to willingly serve him say, I want this for you to come to me but if you chose not okay, ?
But hers the kicker, were supposed to follow and serve him or get tortured yet he offers no definitive proof he is even real. You really don't see how insane this is?

it's amazing how christians can never put the pieces together that this constitutes gross coercion. they have defined god as arbitrarily good so even when you break it down for them they still refuse to see it. it would put them into a state of cognitive dissonance if they admitted god used coercion

If god just wants our love and threatening eternal hell doesnt constitute coercion, I will use this tactic when asking women out.

"Hey I really like you. I can see us together. do you love me too? oh and there's torture for you if you dont. forever"

the best they'll offer is an attempt to rationalize that those who dont accept god is real, regardless if it is from malice or lack of evidence, really do deserve hell

they might site romans 1:20 ( For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse), and try to convince us that we know god exists just by looking around us and so are 'without excuse"

if this were true, people would come to christianity all over the world, even without missionaries and bibles. it would just be obvious, like the bible says. they are supposed to just know that jesus died for their sins and that they need to accept that, based on the awesomeness of the mountains and beauty of the ocean, complexity of life or whatever.

as a side note, I have to think this belief stems from believers who look at something awesome, such as a lightning strike, complex cells or eyes or other "irriducible complexity" stuff, things they themselves cant readily explain, and solve the question by attributing it to a deity. they then assume that I would be in a similar state when encountering the same things and thus deduce a god exists as well. It's not my fault that my curiosity is not satisfied when encountering such things. only through thinking like mine (scientific method) and courage to look deeper and make no assumtions have many of these previously divine phenomena been explained, and the truth is always far more interesting and humbling. I am sorry that many believers seem to want to seem like they know the answer without doing any of the legwork to see if they are really correct. it seems most arrogant to me

my mother says the bible is written in the stars, to which I responded, why read the mistranslated english version then? get it straight from the source. granted, to get the entire story, one would need to spend at least a year in each hemisphere, and have perfect viewing conditions. but that pesky little science-y detail shouldnt stop a true truth seeker. also, disregard that the stars do change position over time and occasionally go supernova, god's word is eternal

in short, at best, we have the free will to choose to be coerced or not. me? I don't take kindly to threats. or to blame for ancient ancestor's supposed actions

You're smart enough to understand the devil's advocate concept, Mr Duke. Playing dumb is an inelegant way of dodging a question. I understand if you don't want to talk about how God isn't speaking with you personally. I'd be upset, too.

I understand that Cyp, but as I pointed out and as you're doing again you are making many more incorrect assumptions. I am not trying to dodge a question nor am I upset. The devils advocate questions are pre-loaded with assumptions about my beliefs if I answer them directly so I'd have to first contest the question before I could even answer it. Plus devils advocate is used to chase thoughts further. We have plenty to discuss as is, is it really that difficult to argue from your own position?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cyparagon

How does the image not answer the question? Please view it again and be more specific with your question. Or perhaps give an example of one of the instances in science where there isn't consensus and we can discuss it.

If I am mistaken then it shouldn't be hard for you to show me the historical and scientific consensus regarding the gospels. Unless you are saying there is no consensus either way.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Shakenawake

congruence with reality while making the fewest assumptions (occam's razor) is how it is decided, though everyone is free to believe things which are not congruent with reality, and many do. probably all of us to some degree

The argument can be made that Occam's razor points to God's existence.

__________________“Absence of evidence isn't evidence of absence."http://laserpointerforums.com/donations.htm“The end of life is not to be happy, nor to achieve pleasure and avoid pain, but to do the will of God, come what may.”—Martin Luther King

..Is it simple to say that before there was anything else, there was a supernatural entity that did NOTHING for an infinite amount of time, then, a few thousand years ago, decided to make creatures in his own image?

That would depend on your creation model wouldn't it. But against a universe creating itself from nothing, the improbability of life, ect...

__________________“Absence of evidence isn't evidence of absence."http://laserpointerforums.com/donations.htm“The end of life is not to be happy, nor to achieve pleasure and avoid pain, but to do the will of God, come what may.”—Martin Luther King

That would depend on your creation model wouldn't it. But against a universe creating itself from nothing, the improbability of life, ect...

The universe COULD NOT have been "Created from nothing".

But neither would an immortal all seeing all knowing supernatural being that created us in his image....and always existed...WHERE?

When?

Look at it this way:

1) The universe has an infinite amount of space, as it's IMPOSSIBLE for there to be anything outside of it....so, there's no need to CREATE an infinite amount of space, it simply HAS TO exist, even if its empty.

2) There is an infinite amount of time. It's IMPOSSIBLE for it to have a beginning, or, an end...as what was before that, and, after THAT?

Therefore, there's no need TO CREATE time, it HAS TO exist, all by itself, even with nothing else.

That just leaves the STUFF in the universe.

There is experimental evidence that photons and electron/positron pairs seem to simply pop into existence in a vacuum. (Not in your Hoover, the space that's supposedly empty of matter/energy).

So, essentially, in an infinite amount of space, with an infinite amount of time, when you combine them, you get matter and energy (According to quantum mechanics).

Now, I'm NOT saying that that's "The Answer", I'm just saying that that's where things seem to be going.

The ability to warp the fabric of space time, Quantum Foams, and all that, seems like science fiction, albeit, the warpage can be experimentally, and directly, observed, such as when a planet goes "retrograde", etc.

So, does a supernatural all seeing all knowing arbiter of all thing moral (who is so insecure about his own existence that the ONLY unforgivable transaction a human can commit is NOT believing in HIS SON?), who existed BEFORE there was space or time...(To DO so?), and who picked Jews and then the Catholic Church to represent him on earth...

...even though he's "everywhere" and could easily not NEED their help...

INSTEAD of a natural explanation, seem that much more simple?

Simple = Time + Space = Energy + Matter

No need to say Santa Claus = Time + Space + Matter + Energy

--------------------------------------

As for the "improbability of life", sure, that one might be a long shot, but, given the EVIDENCE, I'd say, off hand, that it HAPPENED.

I admit its like being able to bet with someone on the outcome of a game played yesterday...but, I HAVE that inside info...I see life all over the place, so, I already know how it came out on that issue.

Improbable things happen...like life.

Also, it might not BE as improbable as you think.

Forget an objective, etc...just consider what happens when you react chemicals together.

Some form compounds. These compounds then can form other compounds, and so forth.

Sometimes the new compounds are inert, and become less likely to react with other things...and sometimes they're very reactive, and act like tinker toys, attaching other stuff left and right.

Carbon just happens to be like that, and, you get organic compounds forming in outer space, all by themselves.

Simply continue doing that, and the chemicals get more complicated, if they are the type that can still react, etc. If not, they simply stop reacting, and stay at that stage.

Reactions can make the chemicals smaller, or, larger...depending on the reaction.

At some point, simply BECAUSE there are reactive chemicals...the rate of them interacting with each other increases.

"Life" is a tenuous concept...for example, Viruses were not considered to "be alive" as they don't breed, breath, or eat, etc.

Now, some are wondering if they should be counted as alive...and so forth.

How complicated a chemical can BE before we wonder "if it's alive?" is an interesting question.

It may be a while before we have all the answers to these things...but, we're working on them anyway.

We just don't STOP working on it and say "It must be that Santa Claus made life", and call it a day.

So not knowing THE answer is not the same as plugging in one that doesn't WORK.

Supernatural beings existing before time and space and having babies with earthlings and demanding that the BABY be worshipped, sounds less probable than quantum mechanics, or whatever succeeds it, and other more logical explanations.

----------------------

Historically, mankind has plugged in the supernatural whenever they don't know the real answer.

Even in modern times, some don't know that some of what they think of as supernatural, is, in fact, natural.

A popular right wing conservative was taped on an interview or two (Maybe more) essentially stating that mankind doesn't know why the tides go in/out...and that this proves there's a god doing it, as there is no other way for it to happen.

If he knew about the effect of the sun and moon's gravity on the oceans, etc...he would know that he didn't need to plug in a supernatural answer.

How long was it before humans knew the moon or sun were causing the tides?

We knew ~ 150 BC about lunar tide influences.

Why do some people alive today NOT know?

Religion.

Knowledge is bad.

Ignorance is bliss.

Be like a child.

And so forth.

So, its like that with a lot of how things work in real life, that religious people don't know about as well as those who don't have to wear biblical glasses, etc.

Re earlier post: There is evidence the great pyramid is closer to 10-12,000 years old but the mainstream rejects this with prejudice. Here's something I find interesting, it's a YouTube video which will certainly turn a few heads in laughter, I am not saying this is how it is, but at the same time, I wonder...

Sincerely investigate any of these three short quotes as new concepts and you've taken your first step into a larger world:

"I regard consciousness as fundamental. I regard matter as derivative from consciousness..." - Max Planck. "Everything we call real is made of things that cannot be regarded as real" - Neils Bohr. "What we call physical things and events do not exist independently of subjective experience..." - Deepak Chopra.

Each of these three rabbit holes go deep, ending up in the same place.

Uh not hard to figure out there Mr. Warne. You simply click on the posts and it gives you a list of who posted and how many times.

The forum also has this amazing feature that shows you the total number of posts a person has right under their name! Did you also know that you can customize a special signature at the bottom of each of your posts too!?
It's amazing!

You are right, what keeps being stated as "nothing" is far more than something. Theoretically, there is more latent energy in the space taken up by a single hydrogen atom than is in all of the physical matter of the entire observed universe by a factor of over a trilliion.

Knowing that, now tell me a universe of stars and planets can't eventually form out of what was before considered empty nothingness. Of course, you could reject what I just wrote as non-sense and continue seeing the big bang creation of the universe as impossible, but if you research this further, I don't think you can say that anymore.

Sincerely investigate any of these three short quotes as new concepts and you've taken your first step into a larger world:

"I regard consciousness as fundamental. I regard matter as derivative from consciousness..." - Max Planck. "Everything we call real is made of things that cannot be regarded as real" - Neils Bohr. "What we call physical things and events do not exist independently of subjective experience..." - Deepak Chopra.

Each of these three rabbit holes go deep, ending up in the same place.

Ok lets take science's arguement. IF the universe is in fact infinite then by definition I exist again somewhere else. You do too. Because it keeps going on forever and ever. Well then IF all things are possible, then god HAS to exist because the universe goes on forever and if it goes on forever then all things exist. Infinite Worlds, Infinite Possibilities.

I've said it once and I'll say it again.
Aliens = Demons = Annunaki = Lizard People
Who took my tin foil hat!

I think what we call the universe isn't really the universe, that it is just one of many, like bubbles on the ocean shore. There have been attempts to prove this theory one way or the other. The hope was if our universe is part of many, that others would be deforming our own as we press against them, but nothing has been detected yet. It might be they don't press together anyway, no more than planets press together. I suppose that our universe might not be infinite itself, but their could be an infinite number of them. There is a multiple universe theory where if there are enough of them, there could be some very much like our own, perhaps with only one atom of difference but the number of universes which would need exist for that to happen is staggeringly large.

A recent study found the Milky Way is teeming with billions of planets that are about the size of Earth, orbit stars just like our sun, and exist in the Goldilocks zone — not too hot and not too cold for life. Astronomers using NASA data have calculated for the first time that in our galaxy alone, there are at least 8.8 billion stars with Earth-size planets in the habitable temperature zone. From these numbers I have no doubts there are alien lizard people in the universe and can see a way to cheat the speed of light for them to get here by pulling on a warped piece space so it moves instead of traveling through it. Space itself can move tremendously faster than the speed of light, so fast light is nearly standing still. This is a recent technological break through, although on a very tiny scale right now, proven to work. As much as I want to meet with an advanced technological visitor from another planet, I probably would be scared out of my wits to see a lizard alien. Still, I don't see any of them as demonic, that very well may be where the concept of demonic came from, but I don't think aliens come from hell to reap mankind's souls or war against God. It's still a bit early to be talking about aliens in this society, most people aren't open to the idea, or just plain deny it, although I am sure that will change in time.

PS, tin hats don't work, they never did...Who ever came up with that idea didn't know anything about proper grounding, they need a large diameter copper wire and a ground rod which would be a good thing, thus pinning the lunatic to one spot!

Sincerely investigate any of these three short quotes as new concepts and you've taken your first step into a larger world:

"I regard consciousness as fundamental. I regard matter as derivative from consciousness..." - Max Planck. "Everything we call real is made of things that cannot be regarded as real" - Neils Bohr. "What we call physical things and events do not exist independently of subjective experience..." - Deepak Chopra.

Each of these three rabbit holes go deep, ending up in the same place.

PS, tin hats don't work, they never did...Who ever came up with that idea didn't know anything about proper grounding, they need a large diameter copper wire and a ground rod which would be a good thing, thus pinning the lunatic to one spot!

Damn right they don't, neither does aluminum, they really need to be made of stainless steel.