The he went on a tantrum in continuing to proclaim the following statements:”

“I want to bring to your attention that the British Columbia "jade" is actually hydrogrossular and not nephrite. Hydroglossular has a similar Moh's scale hardness as nephrite and a specific gravity of 3.5 that is much higher than nephrite and even higher than jadeite.”

“New Zealand Maori jade is actually not nephrite but Tangiwaite, has a hardness of 5 on Moh's scale and a specific gravity of 2.6.”

“The so-called "California jade" was discovered in Northern California coast by divers near the shore at a depth of 30-100 feet. This hardstone is called Vesuvianite and is not nephrite.”

He should just admit that he was wrong about there was no nephrite jade without making the above statements.

I have been posting so much postings in thei forum regarding BC nephrite jade (Canada) I am not going to repeat myself here, readers who are interesting can just search with BC jade or under Bill in this forum to find them.

Now another member already responded to the expert that New Zealand Maori jade is actually not nephrite, please see
http://asianart.com/phpforum/index.php?method=detailAll&Id=35652#35791

and I quite enjoyed his question to the jade expert:

“I do not know where you sourced your information for your books on jade, weapons and latterly netsuke, but they are in my opinion also largely incorrect and exceptionally misleading.”

You see, I have been living in the U.S.A. for over 30 years and had been recently diligently in acquiring nephrite jade rocks, pebbles, slabs, roughes, etc. from all over the world especially from California. I know for sure the BIG SUR jade from California are nephrite jade because I have acuqired quite a few of them. Some quality samples are do dark green that they were being called “elephant blue”. They all passed the hardness and S.G. tests. Therefore to hear the expert to declare that: “California jade is not nephrite” truly shocks me.

Everybody who are interested in nephrite jade know indeed there are nephrite jade found in BIG SUR (beach) in California for a long time. Recently there are botryoidal jade (nephrite) finds finds that are astounding the jade and mineral world.

I would post the following links here for your enjoyment with the map of BIG SUR and some sample of BIG SUR nephrite jade below.

Bill
In the eyes of a BC Jade collector, California Jade , generally speaking, is not necessarily the nicest material, but it is Jade (Nephrite)! Here in BC we have several areas where some good Jade is found, and some is found in a former asbestos mine (Cassiar Asbestos). I have tested many samples from different locations in BC, and the SG was always right on the dot. One exception, the BC mutton fat Jade is Feldspar (I tested those samples as well) Now, the New Zealand greenstone is not only Jade, but many times imported from Russia and/or BC. Many Jade Tikis were made in Idar Oberstein, Germany, then Taiwan started the production of Tikis until China took over. Jade from Taiwan looks almost similar to BC Jade, and so does some of the Alaska Jade.
Hope this helps.
Ernest

You genuinely puzzled me. Had I unintentionally hinted that California nephrite jade was the nicest material? If that is the case, I apologize for misleading you because that is simply not the intention of my thread.

You see, a jade expert/jade book write had made some interesting statements in that (1) There were no nephrite jades ever being discovered in Taiwan; (2) BC (Canada) jade is not nephrite; (3) California jade is not nephrite; (4) New Zealand Maori jade is not nephrite. Therefore, this is the only reason for me to post this thread to refute him by showing that California jade is indeed a type of nephrite jades.

I had recently bought a few BC jade carvings and slabs and indeed they were very beautiful and better looking than the California jades I had. However, that does not mean there may not be some California jade out there that are more superior than some of the BC nephrite jade.

I actually believe out of all the nephrite jades, the XinJiang Hetian nephrite jade may be the best in quality and the nicest.

Russian nephrite jade and the Alaska polar jade may be the next nicest one and with BC nephrite jade not too far behind. I have not seen enough Taiwan jade to make a fair comparison and I believe some top-quality one may be as good as any nephrite jade.

Interestingly, the Chinese people never did quite catch on with the BC jade may be until recently. Same applies to Taiwan jade. I have no idea what happened to all these genuine Wyoming nephrite especially the real black nephrite jade. For that matter, I have no idea what they use Australian black nephrite jade for although I saw some very expensive black Australian jade ornaments for sales on internet but I have never seen any of them in the U.S.

The only comment from your messages that truly puzzles me is:

"Now, the New Zealand greenstone is not only Jade, but many times imported from Russia and/or BC. "

Would you please clarify what exactly you meant by that? Are you saying the New Zealand Maori nephrite jade is not from New Zealand or?

Thanks for your comments and it would be nice if you would be kind enough to post some jade carvings or samples of Taiwan, BC jade, Alaska jade, Russian jade here for us to compare.

New Zealand Maori nephrite jade is not from New Zealand or? = yes, they have their own Jade, but the Tikis have been made from foreign Jade in foreign countries since app 1960. The very beautiful green stone is usually from Russia.
Wyoming Jade has disappeared. I visited Wyoming about 5 years ago to get some samples, and was told that nothing has been available for a long time, as they had only one find. Yet they sold Wyoming jade which was in reality BC Jade! The Wyoming emerald green Jade is extremely rare. The other colors were of no great interest, they had a faded look ( I am talking about 30 years ago).
Ernest

Thanks for your opinions and I believe it surely comes from your experience in collecting all different jade samples. Since I really do not know too much about New Zealand jade, therefore, I would not know whether what you said would be correct or not and can only kow-tow to your experience and the contribution of other collectors who may know more about NZ jade. It is true though many of these NZ tikis I have seen for sale lately material of which did all look like BC jade or Russian jade.

It was rumored that there was indeed genuine black nephrite jade in Wyoming but the whole supply was bought by a Chinese guy from Taiwan in the 70s but I have no idea of the whereabout of all these Wyoming black nephrite jade. However, some of them (black jade-old stocks) could still be purchased in the U.S. but they would not come cheap. Most of the black Wyoming jade for sales on eBay are all fakes and are not even nephrite jade. I could only obtain a few very small genuine samples myself. Many of so called Wyoming jade are not totally black but rather very dark green and they are vastly different than BC nephrite jade. I cannot say whether your statement: " Wyoming jade which was in reality BC Jade!" is correct or not because I have not seen that many Wyoming jade that look like BC jade are for sales. I am not sure BC jade is really cheaper than Wyoming jade. I did obtain a piece of genuine Wyoming nephrite jade rock (dark green, almost black) and it looks nothing like BC nephrite jade. It would be nice if you would post pictures of some of the Wyoming jades you may have (the one you got a while ago).

>>Wyoming jade which was in reality BC Jade!"<<
Sorry about that one, what I wanted to say is: The few carvings I saw in the shops (in Wyoming) were made from BC jade. When I pointed that out to the dealers, they confessed that they had no clue
Ernest

I am an amateur collector of oriental art and a professional geologist. Part of my interest in geology came about from finding nephrite on some family land on the Feather River, which drains the northern Sierra. We get quite an attractive black material (melanochlorite) and an attractive blue-green material with pale snowflakes. We also have a true jadite mine just over the hill, where pods of rock from deep down were brought to the surface in intrusive serpentine bodies (in a geologic setting not unlike New Zealand). The term hydrogrossular is not a proper mineralogical term, although grossularite is a garnet mineral. Of course some of the material that has traditionally been called "jade" in China is not true jade, mineralogically speaking. It is rather like using the common names for plants and animals (which change from place to place, culture to culture and time to time), versus the "proper" binomial names, which remain the same (in theory, at least).

"We are California’s premier jade hunting family. You can be 100% confident when you buy from us. We are lucky to harvest by helicopter a
small amount of this extremely rare jade every year. Botryoidal jade is known as the “Rarest of the rare jades” We travel to the remote wilderness and choose the very best pieces to helicopter back with. Then only the “Best of the Best” are made into the treasures we sell. Our
shop is off the grid and uses passive solar and biodiesel as the only energy sources. Our trucks also run on this vegetable fuel exclusively.

We cause no environmental harm in our gathering. Transporting and cutting are done with as little impact on the environment as possible.
This jade has been featured in Arts of Asia magazine Jan./Feb 1999. It has also been in Lapidary Journal and other publications. Famous geologists and museum curators have visited the area to study this rare jade and the area hosting it. Do a web search for Botryoidal jade or riverblossomjade or california jade to learn more. See the fantastic
Arts of Asia article for great details."

"Mint in Snow - another name -- see Blossom jade -- given in the marketplace to nephrite jade apparently derived from boulders recovered from places such as Jade Cove on the Pacific coast south of Monterey, California (Ward, 1999)."

Just because something is written in a book or on a web-site does not necessarily mean the information is correct.

The author you refer to is a case in point. But there are numerous other examples of errors, incompetence or fraud, especially in the last decade.

One hears little today of the two American laboratories who claimed they could validate ancient bronzes by microscopic inspection, or Chinese jades which was their second subject.

The proponents of optically stimulated luminescence (OSL) have similarly gone to ground, as have the majority of laboratories who claimed proficiency in thermoluminescence (TL) testing, their incorrect datings buried in haste without further argument. Heaven help their clients who relied on their expertise to validate the authenticity of their collection.

Bill, please take your repetitious posts of web-sites and post them somewhere else where it doesn't matter. Or research their data before you do so, instead of concluding them with your standard out, "I may be wrong".

Would you please write in simple English because I read your message twice and still have no idea in you are trying to say.

This thread is about California nephrite jade but I do not see you said anything even remotely related to it.

Of course not all books could be trusted or the info posted on them would be reliable and that would include those books written by you. The recent example shows just because one might have written a few books that does not necessarily mean him/her would be an expert.

Which author did you refer to? Are you in agreement with me or? Did I say he was competent?

The statement about TL testing seems to be self-serving and has nothing to do with this thread. May be you should poste them somewhere else or better yet post a new thread yourself and clearly state what exactly you want to say instead of posting a puzzle here to confuse all of us.

Some times, if you do not have anything good or wise to say, may be it is better not to say them. It seems to me that it is quite disturbing that you seem to enjoy reading every single one of my posts because you always went through the troubles in posting interesting responses on them and yet you told me,

"post them somewhere else where it doesn't matter".

Since this is my thread I surely can post anything I deem fit. Now, if you do own this forum or in your own site, then may be you have the absolute authority in restricting the freedom of speech by banning any messages you do not like.

Therefore, I am sorry to inform you that since your whole message does not seem to make any common senses at all, it would be duly ignored. In this case, I am certain of it.

Other than the nephrite found in Washington, and that of California, I know of a locality in the state of Oregon.(This has been tested and proven to
be nephrite.) This material is opaque to semi-trans-
lucent, has green flecks, black specks, and cream to
white areas in the best material. I will say that it would certainly be nice to have a helicopter to
retrieve this material.
Michael

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Are your previous message referreing to yourself? since just like me, you are not really any more an expert in jade than me?

You see the problem with most of these opinions being posted in this fourm, is that without any credible and reliable references or supports, they are purely educated (or uneducated) guesses and personal opinions at best. Very often, when one attempts to play "expert" based mainly on his personal opinions will end up with eggs all over his/her face. I believe that should be enough to humble all of us in not believing we would be the ultimate expert in anything no matter how many books we might have written and in not being arrogant enough to look down upon other members or collectors.

Even an expert in ceramic such as you, in one of your recently posted messages you said that you had difficulty in googling one of the Chinese source in ceramic simply because you did not know how to search them in Chinese. Therefore if you assume because you cannot find such references in English therefore such reference do not exist then you will surely miss a lot.

Therefore, I would never laugh at anybody's opinions regarding jade no matter how ridiculous it may sound unless they are trying to play "teachers" instead of sharing with others as equals. Are you trying to be my teacher or you are just trying to share with me as an equal? If it is the latter, I would truly appreciate your effort. Thank you.

B

Subject:THE TRUTH
Posted By: JadeJunkee Fri, Jan 15, 2010

I'm not sure where to start...not sure what folks are trying to say on this old thread...but here are the facts. Nephrite jade is found in Alaska, British Columbia Canada, Washington State, California and Wyoming....some other states MAY have jade (Oregon, as Micheal pointed out has some small deposits). Hydrogrossular garnet (HGG) is distinctly heavier....but that is not what is being called jade. They are formed together, in the same kinds of enviroments. In northern CA alot of the "jade" is vesuvianite (+/- hgg) in Wa the HGG is (+/- vesuvianite) niether are jade, but are found along side the real jade (nephrite)...follow? There are several (or were) nephrite (not hgg) mines in WA that shipped to China...why? Because only China purchased in quantities that could support the mines. I have a lot more info for those interested....btw all the botryoidals are nephrite jade...nothing else.

Subject:Re: THE TRUTH
Posted By: Allan Sun, Feb 21, 2010

I was just reading through a lot of this thread which I find very interesting. I collect jade in the Big Sur area and have recently been working the gems. Difficult but fun. I wanted to make one comment to Bill and the rest. An example of what Tony might be saying is from a post Bill did about the Vonson Blue. I have held this stuff in my hand and there is no way it is nephrite or jadite. It is way too light. The density is just not there to be anything related. Even though it is stated as being a "blue jade" I highly doubt it is.

Subject:Re: THE TRUTH
Posted By: JadeJunkee Sun, Feb 21, 2010

That's interesting Allen....do you know if any samples have ever been properly tested? Folks will call everything jade without real proof to back it up...especially if real jades are known from a region..it makes it all the more believable. I certainly don't want to get involved in an old bitter argument though. I'll have to look up this variety of "jade" and see what info is out there. But without the "heft" you are right...no way it's jade :-)

~Zeke

Subject:Vonson Blue
Posted By: Bill Mon, Feb 22, 2010

Hi, Allan and Zeke:

It is interesting this post attracts new reader after it was posted a while ago. The original purpose of my posting this thread was because a jade book writer/jade expert/ex-OB-GYN doctor said there were no nephrite jade in Taiwan or in California. To prove him wrong, I posted this thread. Since then he got into real legal problems because he was selling fake "jadeite" carvings to his customers for a large amount of money and was now being prosecuted by the state attorney in New York.

I have never seen a piece of "Vonson Blue" jade myself therefore I cannot say for sure what it may be. May be you can post picture of a piece for us to see. I would appreciate.

Most of the BIG SUR nephrite jade I purchased including the Elephant Blue are genuine nephrite jade and I believe they are what the Chinese called Bi Yu (green nephrite jade), which may be similar to that of BC nephrite jade.

Now the funny thing is that there are supposedly "jadeite jade" found in California but I had yet been able to find a genuine piece. One guy selling the "jadeite" and nephrite jade found in his backyard in California and he sent me some sample for testing (their S.G. and hardness) only found they were all green jasper.

Therefore, do you know if there are really any genuine jadeite jades from California and where I may get some samples to study?

Thanks.

Bikll

Subject:Re: Vonson Blue
Posted By: JadeJunkee Tue, Feb 23, 2010

Sorry Bill..I have no idea about the jadeite issue in California...I've heard that it's there too...and I know of one location here in Washington, but don't have a confirmed sample ...yet:-) I will ask around, but I bet Allen knows something about it. I've been meaning to ask about it myself anyway.

The reasoon this thread keeps getting attention is that it is often in search results for jade + CA and WA...after looking at it for so long I felt someone should say something about the real situation.

It's Allan here again. Interesting thoughts on all this again. I have a piece of what is supposed to be jadeite from Clear Creek in my posession. Unfortunately, it is too large to cut in my saw but almost fits. I have not done a SG test on it yet. I will try and do one tomorrow. It is a blue green color, hard, but does not seem translucent. I will check it out and get back.

Subject:Re: Jadeite
Posted By: Donald Kasper Sun, Oct 01, 2017

Infrared spectroscopy of samples I dug at Clear Creek confirm jadeite, as well as XRD from a prof in New York. The Jade Cove material is nephrite in IR. A sample I obtained today of the Vonsen material is clearly actinolite. Since it is not fissile, it is solid, without obvious actinolite needles to the naked eye, this is clearly nephrite, which is a variety of actinolite. It is the only Norcal coastal nephrite I have scanned in infrared. Most are diopside, serpentines, vesuvianites, clinochlores, and even a green albite is in the Smith River.

Subject:Re: Jadeite
Posted By: Allan Sat, Mar 13, 2010

I thought I had a some jadeite from clear creek from a rock hound to offer some samples. I just tested the S.G. on it. Came in at 2.65. I think it is a gem grade serpentine. Oh well.

Allan

Subject:Re: Jadeite
Posted By: JadeJunkee Sun, Mar 14, 2010

how about some vonson blue? perhaps those test results I posted aren't represenative. I just emailed a guy here in Washington who is selling some of his old collection...I'll cut the piece I get in half and send you a piece once I get in contact with him. Maybe he has some clear creek stuff?

~zeke

Subject:Re: Jadeite
Posted By: JadeJunkee Tue, Jul 13, 2010

Here is an ebay item from a trusted source...75lb clear creek jadeite boulder...hope this is what you were looking for. Clear creek is closed to the public now...might be your only oppertunity.

~Zeke

Subject:Re: Jadeite
Posted By: allan Wed, Jul 28, 2010

I now have some clear creek jadeite in my possesion. I have tested the larger stuff for the S.G. and tested smaller chips and cuts and confirmed it is. If Bill or anyone wants some, we can work out a deal. I can cut slabs or send rough. Let me know by my personal email. [email protected]

Allan

Subject:Re: Jadeite
Posted By: Donald Kasper Wed, Sep 27, 2017

There is no question whatsoever that jadeite exists in several pods in Clear Creek. An X-ray study of it was done by a jade expert (who sent me the graph of the results) out of New York, and I have scanned it in infrared.

Subject:Re: Vonson Blue
Posted By: Linda Henris Sat, Aug 17, 2013

I am the granddaughter of Magnus Vonsen. I have some of his Jade, Vonsen Jade, Pacific Blue...When the ranch was sold in the early 60's, in the Deed of Sale, it was stated that the Mine was NOT to be mined at all..I am seeing the Jade on ebay and other places over the years. Attached are 2 foto's first is polished stones and second is raw.

Subject:Re: Vonson Blue
Posted By: Allan Mon, Aug 19, 2013

Hey Linda,

thanks for the post. It has been a few years since I posted my comments on the Vonson blue. My opinion has changed over the years. I have seen so many jades since then and all I can say is it is unique like no other. I so happened to finally get some and worked it today. Making some real nice bead pendants from it. Tested at 2.8 sg. It is hard, fibrus, and has that outer chalky rind like some of the Wyoming jades although not translucent. It is my understanding there is no more of this jade available. I never heard about the property sale condition of not mining the jade but I think it was and is depleated. That is the rumor at least. There also seems to be some "look a likes" being sold out there as Vonson blue. It's more of a blue green and does not look it to me. Anyway, nice to see your post. Here are some beads in process.

Subject:Re: Vonson Blue
Posted By: Donald Kasper Wed, Sep 27, 2017

It doesn't matter what the SG or RI values are. What matters is a method of spectroscopy, X-Ray, Raman,or infrared says. You have some vonsen pieces to send me, I will scan them in infrared.

Subject:Re: Vonson Blue
Posted By: Donald Kasper Wed, Sep 27, 2017

You have a chunk an inch or two in size, I will buff it flat, roam around with reflectance infrared laser and see exactly what it is. I have not seen a Norcal coastal or Coast Range jade yet. Everything in the serpentine group, yes. Nephrite, no. Usually diopside. EEl River, is not jade.

Subject:Re: Vonson Blue
Posted By: Linda Henris Thu, Sep 28, 2017

I do not need the Vonsen Jade scanned. I know and so do many other mineralogist know what the Vonsen or Pacific Blue Jade is.
Thank you

Subject:Re: Vonson Blue
Posted By: Donald Kasper Wed, Sep 27, 2017

Optical properties to ID jade are worthless. You have some vonsen blue, I will scan it with infrared spectroscopy which will tell us exactly what it really is.

Subject:Re: Vonson Blue
Posted By: Maus Thu, Jun 07, 2018

I live in northern California and have a variety of jade(maybe?) samples I've collected along the coasts; including blue material, some white / clear material I suspect to be jadeite, and a bunch of other stuff that I suspect to be things like richterite, vesuvianite, aegirine-augite, etc. but I could very well be wrong.

Is there any way I could send you samples to test more to sate my own curiosity moreso anything else? I would be more than happy to compensate you for the time and effort.