Ok, now I admit crap is getting taken to far. Oh boo hoo Bush said some things that were critical to Obama. STFU! Jesus F'ing Christ! This is a legitimate criticism of Obama's foreign policy plan. People bitch and moan when real issues aren't addressed, and when one finally is, they bitch about it not being fair. This isn't about freaking monkey shirts or rev wright, this is a completely legitimate criticism, man up and deal with it. I wouldn't go as far to call what he wants to do appeasement, but I am not going to bitch about semantics here.

Oh Nos, a freaking REPUBLICAN is critical over what a democrat has to say:rolleyes: First time that a high ranking party leader has critized someone from across the aisle right:rolleyes:

SoonerProphet

5/15/2008, 12:10 PM

Appeasement, much like the term "isolationist", is term meant to stifle debate and the overall thought process.

Sooner_Havok

5/15/2008, 12:12 PM

Appeasement, much like the term "isolationist", is term meant to stifle debate and the overall thought process.

So the term may have been to harsh, the point he was trying to make is still a valid one

soonerscuba

5/15/2008, 12:14 PM

Yeah, I don't care what Bush has to say, I can hardly wait until he fades out as a sad footnote next year. At this point, you probably get a bump if he spouts one of his ridiculous parallels at you, assuming anybody listens at all anymore.

Sooner_Havok

5/15/2008, 12:16 PM

I just can't believe the donks are getting their collective panties in a twist over this.

Sooner_Havok

5/15/2008, 12:20 PM

I am glad RLIMC can't see what I am saying. Then he would find out we probably agree on something. That would be truly awful.:D

SoonerProphet

5/15/2008, 12:30 PM

So the term may have been to harsh, the point he was trying to make is still a valid one

Um, no...Bush's foreign policy or that of the "neoconservative" crowd has no validity whatsoever and on many levels.

First, to lump all "terrorist" groups under one umbrella is intellectually lazy. To link US foreign policy to Israel's in dangerous and unconstitutional. We have no friends only interests, conflating their issues to ours is assuredly not in our national interests. Secondly, engaging in talks with North Korea, Libya, and the like while ignoring a democratically elected Hamas smacks of hypocrisy.

Sooner_Havok

5/15/2008, 12:32 PM

Um, no...Bush's foreign policy or that of the "neoconservative" crowd has no validity whatsoever and on many levels.

First, to lump all "terrorist" groups under one umbrella is intellectually lazy. To link US foreign policy to Israel's in dangerous and unconstitutional. We have no friends only interests, conflating their issues to ours is assuredly not in our national interests. Secondly, engaging in talks with North Korea, Libya, and the like while ignoring a democratically elected Hamas smacks of hypocrisy.

Look, I ain't saying I agree with what the guy said, I am just saying bringing up criticism about his plans to meet with these guys is valid. I think we should open diplomatic channels with them, but there are some pretty good reasons why we shouldn't either.

SoonerProphet

5/15/2008, 12:38 PM

Look, I ain't saying I agree with what the guy said, I am just saying bringing up criticism about his plans to meet with these guys is valid. I think we should open diplomatic channels with them, but there are some pretty good reasons why we shouldn't either.

Outside of the kooky arguments offered up with the frontpage mag and little green footballs crowd, what would be some damaging about establishing communications with Hamas, Hezbollah, or Iran for that matter?

Sooner_Havok

5/15/2008, 12:39 PM

Outside of the kooky arguments offered up with the frontpage mag and little green footballs crowd, what would be some damaging about establishing communications with Hamas, Hezbollah, or Iran for that matter?

First would be why reward these groups with direct relations with the US before they have done anything.

Look, I ain't saying I agree with what the guy said, I am just saying bringing up criticism about his plans to meet with these guys is valid. I think we should open diplomatic channels with them, but there are some pretty good reasons why we shouldn't either.

If you waffled anymore than your quote above, I say you were a politician yourself.
As far as what is said about Obama, I'll consider the source and be done with it.

KC//CRIMSON

5/15/2008, 12:47 PM

I wonder if G-Dub really gave up golf (which was super meaningful btw...) or did he just come to the realization of "Hey, I kinda suck at is game!"

I realize opinions about the peanut farmer vary, but it was his administration that established one of the longest lasting peace deals in the Mideast.

swardboy

5/15/2008, 12:52 PM

Um, no...Bush's foreign policy or that of the "neoconservative" crowd has no validity whatsoever and on many levels.

First, to lump all "terrorist" groups under one umbrella is intellectually lazy. To link US foreign policy to Israel's in dangerous and unconstitutional. We have no friends only interests, conflating their issues to ours is assuredly not in our national interests. Secondly, engaging in talks with North Korea, Libya, and the like while ignoring a democratically elected Hamas smacks of hypocrisy.

When this happened I pretty much gave up on a solution in the middle east....it's gonna burn....

Sooner_Havok

5/15/2008, 12:54 PM

If you waffled anymore than your quote above, I say you were a politician yourself.
As far as what is said about Obama, I'll consider the source and be done with it.

What? I don't have to agree with what he said to agree with why he said it. I personally like the idea of opening diplomatic channels with hostile entities, but I can admit that it does present a number of pitfalls. You can't just say that what your guy says is 100% right, and blindly ignore the possible problems that one of his policies might present. While I do think we would gain something from the talks, I am willing to admit we might lose some things by opening the channels.

SoonerProphet

5/15/2008, 12:59 PM

When this happened I pretty much gave up on a solution in the middle east....it's gonna burn....

What? So the grand dream of democratizing the Mideast is a pipedream. Oh, I see, your solution involves brown folks kowtowing to the demands of the US and Israel, not expressing their own desires and hopes for the reagion.

Fraggle145

5/15/2008, 01:02 PM

I just thought it was stupid (no surprise here) for Bush to bring it up at a different countries 60 Anniversary in front of their version of congress. Do your dirty laundry at home.

Sooner_Havok

5/15/2008, 01:05 PM

I just thought it was stupid (no surprise here) for Bush to bring it up at a different countries 60 Anniversary in front of their version of congress. Do your dirty laundry at home.

Yeah, the timing may have been poor, but I still say it was a valid criticism.

Blue

5/15/2008, 01:09 PM

What? So the grand dream of democratizing the Mideast is a pipedream. Oh, I see, your solution involves brown folks kowtowing to the demands of the US and Israel, not expressing their own desires and hopes for the reagion.

Their desires and hopes for the region are to wipe Israel from the map and kill infidels. F em. They'll get their chance too w/ sentiments like these quickly becoming the norm.

Isreal will be on their own soon enough, then, get your :pop:

Frozen Sooner

5/15/2008, 01:09 PM

He criticized a US politician in front of foreigners?

That tears it, I'm not buying his next album.

Sooner_Havok

5/15/2008, 01:10 PM

He criticized a US politician in front of foreigners?

That tears it, I'm not buying his next album.

heh :D

SoonerProphet

5/15/2008, 01:30 PM

Their desires and hopes for the region are to wipe Israel from the map and kill infidels. F em. They'll get their chance too w/ sentiments like these quickly becoming the norm.

Isreal will be on their own soon enough, then, get your :pop:

Yep, every last one them desires this. It surely couldn't be a homeland of their own, a right to return to land confiscated since 1948, a right to water for irrigation, or the freedom to go to work without passing through a checkpoint.

Vaevictis

5/15/2008, 01:33 PM

First would be why reward these groups with direct relations with the US before they have done anything.

Second would be to list the foreign policy successes stemming from the US shunning a government we didn't like.

Vaevictis

5/15/2008, 01:39 PM

I realize opinions about the peanut farmer vary, but it was his administration that established one of the longest lasting peace deals in the Mideast.

I like Jimmy, but he didn't establish it. He was just the neutral third party greasing the gears. Both Israel and Egypt's leadership wanted it badly and made it happen.

Hell, Anwar Sadat predicted that he'd be assassinated for it and he was. Let me repeat that: Egypt's President was willing to die for peace. And he did.

So, again -- I like Jimmy, but he only deserves a small portion of the credit.

mdklatt

5/15/2008, 01:44 PM

Ok, now I admit crap is getting taken to far. Oh boo hoo Bush said some things that were critical to Obama. STFU! Jesus F'ing Christ! This is a legitimate criticism of Obama's foreign policy plan. People bitch and moan when real issues aren't addressed, and when one finally is, they bitch about it not being fair.

Who exactly is bitching and moaning about this?

Blue

5/15/2008, 01:48 PM

Yep, every last one them desires this. It surely couldn't be a homeland of their own, a right to return to land confiscated since 1948, a right to water for irrigation, or the freedom to go to work without passing through a checkpoint.

Living side by side in perfect harmony, huh? You can't possibly believe that this would satisfy muslims?

He's criticizing Bush's policy in general, not his remarks about Obama.

Obama, Pelosi, and other leading dems (http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2008/05/15/bush-compares-obama-to-na_n_101859.html)

Okay, a little over the top, but what do you expect? They're politicians. If it's silly to overreact when one politician says something overtly partisan ("appeasment" is absolutely a loaded word), isn't it also silly to overreact about politicians overreacting in an overtly partisan way?

SoonerProphet

5/15/2008, 01:58 PM

Nope. Just with the hateful rhetoric and the past 60 years as a reference.

During that 60 years, how much land has Israel given up to achieve peace? How have their actions and rhetoric paved the way? How were the actions of the Irgun and Stern Gang any different than that of Hamas or Fatah?

your right, a reference point is important.

Fraggle145

5/15/2008, 02:01 PM

I thought it was cool to see Obama stand up to Bush. Everyone else's reaction is kind of ghey.

Blue

5/15/2008, 02:08 PM

During that 60 years, how much land has Israel given up to achieve peace? How have their actions and rhetoric paved the way? How were the actions of the Irgun and Stern Gang any different than that of Hamas or Fatah?

your right, a reference point is important.

I was talking about being invaded and going to war on several occasions. They've given back the Sinai, Gaza, the West Bank. They'll prolly give the Golan Heights back soon. Yet their neighbors keep talking and carrying on like a bunch of fanatics.

You're anti-Isreal. It's ok. Just admit it.

Sooner_Havok

5/15/2008, 02:14 PM

He's criticizing Bush's policy in general, not his remarks about Obama.

Okay, a little over the top, but what do you expect? They're politicians. If it's silly to overreact when one politician says something overtly partisan ("appeasment" is absolutely a loaded word), isn't it also silly to overreact about politicians overreacting in an overtly partisan way?

Yeah, probably. They all just need to take a chill pill though

SoonerProphet

5/15/2008, 02:17 PM

Outside of 1973, when was the nation of Israel invaded? West Bank is still under occupation with a giant wall. Gaza is a prison compound with no freedom of movement. Yet the Likud still keeps launching attacks on civilians and building settlements.

You're anti-Palestinian. It's ok. Just admit it.

Sooner_Havok

5/15/2008, 02:18 PM

http://www.hamdden.co.uk/Images/Palestinian_land_loss_Map.jpg

SoonerProphet

5/15/2008, 02:21 PM

http://www.hamdden.co.uk/Images/Palestinian_land_loss_Map.jpg

Man, look at all that land the Israeli's have given up. Why are the Palestinian's so damn angry?

Vaevictis

5/15/2008, 02:24 PM

I was talking about being invaded and going to war on several occasions. They've given back the Sinai, Gaza, the West Bank. They'll prolly give the Golan Heights back soon. Yet their neighbors keep talking and carrying on like a bunch of fanatics.

You're anti-Isreal. It's ok. Just admit it.

People tend to do that when their land is taken from them by terrorists.

Which, from their point of view, is exactly what happened.

There's a reason they keep screaming about 'zionists,' you know.

Vaevictis

5/15/2008, 02:33 PM

I mean, seriously. What do you suppose your reaction would be if:

1. The United Nations decided to set up a Muslim state on American soil. (let's pretend they were able to back it up militarily somehow)
2. The Americans who lived there were forcibly removed from their land with laughable or no compensation.
3. Al-Qaeda operatives held prominent positions in the new government.

Sorry to break it to you, but that's what happened in Israel.

I imagine you might be just a tad peeved, eh?

LosAngelesSooner

5/15/2008, 02:46 PM

Man, look at all that land the Israeli's have given up. Why are the Palestinian's so damn angry?
Perhaps we should show the maps which pre-date this? Like covering all the events/relocations the Jews have endured for the past 5000 years? :rolleyes:

LosAngelesSooner

5/15/2008, 02:48 PM

I mean, seriously. What do you suppose your reaction would be if:

1. The United Nations decided to set up a Muslim state on American soil. (let's pretend they were able to back it up militarily somehow)
2. The Americans who lived there were forcibly removed from their land with laughable or no compensation.
3. Al-Qaeda operatives held prominent positions in the new government.

Sorry to break it to you, but that's what happened in Israel.

I imagine you might be just a tad peeved, eh?
There were Muslims living on American soil for 1000's of years who were displaced when we moved here? Interesting. I didn't know that.

Your argument was not well thought out at all. It would have been stronger if you had used Native Americans instead of Muslims.

SoonerBorn68

5/15/2008, 02:50 PM

LAS to the rescue? :confused:

I like Jimmy...

That's all you need to hear to know there's something wrong with this guy.

85Sooner

5/15/2008, 02:59 PM

I realize opinions about the peanut farmer vary, but it was his administration that established one of the longest lasting peace deals in the Mideast.

While many of our citizens sat hostage in Iran. Jimmy Carter may be an intelligent person but he sure was/is a stupid man and about as un American as they come.

Blue

5/15/2008, 03:04 PM

You're anti-Palestinian. It's ok. Just admit it.

Absolutely. I'm against anyone, against Israel.

Mine are religious reasons, but there's no doubt I'm bias. I hope they get it all back all the way to the Euphrates.

I'd love to see the pc intellects survive in the culture they so adamantly defend.

LosAngelesSooner

5/15/2008, 03:08 PM

While many of our citizens sat hostage in Iran. Jimmy Carter may be an intelligent person but he sure was/is a stupid man and about as un American as they come.:rolleyes:

soonerscuba

5/15/2008, 03:47 PM

Absolutely. I'm against anyone, against Israel.

Mine are religious reasons, but there's no doubt I'm bias. I hope they get it all back all the way to the Euphrates.

I'd love to see the pc intellects survive in the culture they so adamantly defend.
Basing foreign policy on when Jesus is coming back is as crazy as it is stupid.

Vaevictis

5/15/2008, 03:57 PM

There were Muslims living on American soil for 1000's of years who were displaced when we moved here? Interesting. I didn't know that.

Your argument was not well thought out at all. It would have been stronger if you had used Native Americans instead of Muslims.

Sorry, Jews and Muslims are a better comparison.

I don't recall Native Americans blowing up buildings and targeting civilians in the name of their religion in the last century. I do recall Jews and Muslims doing it though.

Vaevictis

5/15/2008, 04:07 PM

Irrespective of whether you like my analogy, the facts are:

1. There were Jewish terrorist groups operating in Palestine in the early half of the 20th century.
2. They demanded the creation of a Jewish state.
3. They attacked and killed civilians.
4. Palestinians who had been living in the region for hundreds of years were forcibly removed to make the Jewish state these terrorist groups had been agitating for.
5. The new Jewish state (Israel) incorporated many of the leaders and/or members of these terrorist groups into the new government.

Again: If there was a terrorist group operating in America (say like, I dunno, Al-Qaeda), and a new country was forcibly made of our territory, and leaders of said terrorist group were put into positions of authority in the new government, I expect we Americans might be just a little bit irate.

And as such: It's no wonder Palestinians are aggravated about the situation.

Look, I'm more or less "pro-Israel." It's a democratic country, and it's our ally. But you'll never, ever ever have peace in the Middle East so long as you pretend that the Palestinians don't have a reason to be hopping ****ing mad.

C&CDean

5/15/2008, 04:18 PM

Irrespective of whether you like my analogy, the facts are:

1. There were Jewish terrorist groups operating in Palestine in the early half of the 20th century.
2. They demanded the creation of a Jewish state.
3. They attacked and killed civilians.
4. Palestinians who had been living in the region for hundreds of years were forcibly removed to make the Jewish state these terrorist groups had been agitating for.
5. The new Jewish state (Israel) incorporated many of the leaders and/or members of these terrorist groups into the new government.

Again: If there was a terrorist group operating in America (say like, I dunno, Al-Qaeda), and a new country was forcibly made of our territory, and leaders of said terrorist group were put into positions of authority in the new government, I expect we Americans might be just a little bit irate.

And as such: It's no wonder Palestinians are aggravated about the situation.

Look, I'm more or less "pro-Israel." It's a democratic country, and it's our ally. But you'll never, ever ever have peace in the Middle East so long as you pretend that the Palestinians don't have a reason to be hopping ****ing mad.

Do you believe that if Israel decided to take over California (and I'm all for that) that all of a sudden the terrorist **********s in the ME are going to go all VW bus with peace signs and bells, incense, light shows, and lava lamp and start loving up on Americans?

Wait, don't answer that. Of course they won't because they have every right to blow us to hell since we're only paying them $150 for their oil. And we believe in Jesus. And we're ****ing infidels. And...

Sooner_Havok

5/15/2008, 04:21 PM

Do you believe that if Israel decided to take over California (and I'm all for that) that all of a sudden the terrorist **********s in the ME are going to go all VW bus with peace signs and bells, incense, light shows, and lava lamp and start loving up on Americans?

Wait, don't answer that. Of course they won't because they have every right to blow us to hell since we're only paying them $150 for their oil. And we believe in Jesus. And we're ****ing infidels. And...

What?

C&CDean

5/15/2008, 04:24 PM

OK. I'll type slower.

Say we give California to Israel and they move outta the ME. With me so far?

When this happens, will all the lovely little brown people over there who like to play with firecrackers all of a sudden settle down and be peaceful? Following me?

Never mind, because of course they won't. They hate our guts because we're mean, wicked, and worship Satan. Got it?

Sooner_Havok

5/15/2008, 04:27 PM

OK. I'll type slower.

Say we give California to Israel and they move outta the ME. With me so far?

When this happens, will all the lovely little brown people over there who like to play with firecrackers all of a sudden settle down and be peaceful? Following me?

Never mind, because of course they won't. They hate our guts because we're mean, wicked, and worship Satan. Got it?

Ok, I get you. You lost me with the "go all VW bus with peace signs and bells, incense, light shows, and lava lamp"

C&CDean

5/15/2008, 04:31 PM

Ok, I get you. You lost me with the "go all VW bus with peace signs and bells, incense, light shows, and lava lamp"

You must not have lived during the 60's/70's.

Sooner_Havok

5/15/2008, 04:35 PM

You must not have lived during the 60's/70's.

Na, I'm a young en'

Vaevictis

5/15/2008, 04:36 PM

OK. I'll type slower.

Say we give California to Israel and they move outta the ME. With me so far?

When this happens, will all the lovely little brown people over there who like to play with firecrackers all of a sudden settle down and be peaceful? Following me?

Never mind, because of course they won't. They hate our guts because we're mean, wicked, and worship Satan. Got it?

And no, in the short term, they won't stop. You'd not forget a hundred years of being shat upon by the West (basically America and Britain), and it wouldn't have a ****ing thing to do with religion either.

You act like this is all about religion. It ain't. It's politics. Religion just happens to be the way the politicians are stirring the masses into a frenzy.

SicEmBaylor

5/15/2008, 04:38 PM

Um, no...Bush's foreign policy or that of the "neoconservative" crowd has no validity whatsoever and on many levels.

First, to lump all "terrorist" groups under one umbrella is intellectually lazy. To link US foreign policy to Israel's in dangerous and unconstitutional. We have no friends only interests, conflating their issues to ours is assuredly not in our national interests. Secondly, engaging in talks with North Korea, Libya, and the like while ignoring a democratically elected Hamas smacks of hypocrisy.

You are totally correct.

Terrorism is simply a tool of warfare most often used by those who lack the resources of a legitimate nation-state. You can never ever defeat terrorism because terrorism will always be used by those with limited means to achieve large objectives. The only way to defeat terrorism is to ensure the act doesn't achieve its greater objective.

I really believe the object of radical islam is not to use terrorism as a means to remove us the middle east, but as a way to get us more involved in the region so they have an enemy to rally their people against and in so doing exert greater control over their people.

Sooner_Havok

5/15/2008, 04:44 PM

You are totally correct.

Terrorism is simply a tool of warfare most often used by those who lack the resources of a legitimate nation-state. You can never ever defeat terrorism because terrorism will always be used by those with limited means to achieve large objectives. The only way to defeat terrorism is to ensure the act doesn't achieve its greater objective.

I really believe the object of radical islam is not to use terrorism as a means to remove us the middle east, but as a way to get us more involved in the region so they have an enemy to rally their people against and in so doing exert greater control over their people.

That is kind of what I always thought. They do something to drag a power over their, then use that powers presence to rally people behind their cause.

Gandalf_The_Grey

5/15/2008, 05:11 PM

Why does everyone in the Middle East act like we **** in their cornflakes? It makes me go Boo Hoo thinking of how we have mistreated the poor Middle Easterners. I say those little sorry pieces of **** can all go to hell. We have the undisputed #1 Military in the world. Let's see what would have happened to their sorry jabroni asses if Rome, Genghis Khan, Alexander the Great had to put up with the bull**** we have not only put up with but literally bent over and taken up the tail pipe. Look at the growth in Dubai and tell me that we have somehow "abused" them. No world power has EVER shown the restraint and patience we have shown. IF you don't think we couldn't push the whole Middle East back to the dark ages, you haven't been paying attention(but to be fair, they are probably already pretty close to the dark ages, maybe blowing them back to fire and wheels would have been closer)

SicEmBaylor

5/15/2008, 05:12 PM

That is kind of what I always thought. They do something to drag a power over their, then use that powers presence to rally people behind their cause.

Yep, and we're doing exactly what they want and by so doing reinforcing the point that terrorism works.

Killing people is easy -- killing ideas and methods is much much harder.

SicEmBaylor

5/15/2008, 05:15 PM

Why does everyone in the Middle East act like we **** in their cornflakes? It makes me go Boo Hoo thinking of how we have mistreated the poor Middle Easterners. I say those little sorry pieces of **** can all go to hell. We have the undisputed #1 Military in the world. Let's see what would have happened to their sorry jabroni asses if Rome, Genghis Khan, Alexander the Great had to put up with the bull**** we have not only put up with but literally bent over and taken up the tail pipe. Look at the growth in Dubai and tell me that we have somehow "abused" them. No world power has EVER shown the restraint and patience we have shown. IF you don't think we couldn't push the whole Middle East back to the dark ages, you haven't been paying attention(but to be fair, they are probably already pretty close to the dark ages, maybe blowing them back to fire and wheels would have been closer)

Aside from the ethical and moral barriers to killing everyone in the mid-east (which still wouldn't work because radical islam is found all around the world), we're totally and utterly dependent on their oil. Let's find a cheap, clean, and renewable source of energy and then we can talk about making an entire region of the world into a parking lot.

Plus, they don't hate us because of things we've done directly to them (although there is some of that) -- it's the indirect large-scale attack on their society by the spread of American culture that's the problem. McDonalds is a much much bigger threat to them than the US military.

Vaevictis

5/15/2008, 05:18 PM

Why does everyone in the Middle East act like we **** in their cornflakes?

Because we have ****ed in their cornflakes.

I say those little sorry pieces of **** can all go to hell. We have the undisputed #1 Military in the world. Let's see what would have happened to their sorry jabroni asses if Rome, Genghis Khan, Alexander the Great had to put up with the bull**** we have not only put up with but literally bent over and taken up the tail pipe. Look at the growth in Dubai and tell me that we have somehow "abused" them. No world power has EVER shown the restraint and patience we have shown. IF you don't think we couldn't push the whole Middle East back to the dark ages, you haven't been paying attention(but to be fair, they are probably already pretty close to the dark ages, maybe blowing them back to fire and wheels would have been closer)

"Aw shucks mister, I know robbed you at gunpoint, but don't be mad. I could have murdered you on top of it."

Blue

5/15/2008, 05:20 PM

Basing foreign policy on when Jesus is coming back is as crazy as it is stupid.

Did I say that? Quit putting words in my mouth.

Btw, the new global agenda and wanting to divide Israel goes right along with the Bible. Yet I'm sure you'll find something to get in a twist over that too.

Ignarant!...Christians...! Meeeehhh!

SicEmBaylor

5/15/2008, 05:23 PM

Did I say that? Quit putting words in my mouth.

Btw, the new global agenda and wanting to divide Israel goes right along with the Bible. Yet I'm sure you'll find something to get in a twist over that too.

Ignarant!...Christians...! Meeeehhh!

I didn't see that post by Scuba, but I'm going to spek him for it.

C&CDean

5/15/2008, 05:35 PM

There sure are a lot of terrorist apologists on this board. Well really not that many, maybe a few.

So, we've bent them over and ****ed them so bad they need to blow up innocent people huh? I don't recall us going over there and stealing their oil. I don't recall us going over there and closing their mosques or telling them how to worship. I don't remember us doing a whole lot over there other than coming to the aid of a small country who was getting their teeth kicked in by Saddam, and then turning him over so the locals could hang him.

I don't give a **** what you apologists say, we haven't done anything to warrant the 9/11s. And Sicem, dude, you lost all cred a long time ago when you got lost searching for your brain in your rectum somewhere south of Waco on the way to Houston in your Miata while getting cold-conked by a biker and getting bitch-slapped by some whore who likes real men on her way to a Ron Paul gathering to bitch about nasty cigar smoking lesbians that attend some baptist university.......

Rogue

5/15/2008, 05:40 PM

Somewhere John McCain is hoping GWB will STFU and quit trying to influence this election. The more GWB joins the fray, the worse off the GOP will be.

C&CDean

5/15/2008, 05:42 PM

Somewhere John McCain is hoping GWB will STFU and quit trying to influence this election. The more GWB joins the fray, the worse off the GOP will be.

Not really. There's still quite a few of us out here who just don't see all the wreckage, carnage, and destruction some of the rest of y'all see in the GWB presidency.

Sooner_Havok

5/15/2008, 05:53 PM

There sure are a lot of terrorist apologists on this board. Well really not that many, maybe a few.

I can't accept that a whole group of people are evil incarnate. I am sorry if that makes me an apologist. I have known a lot of people of the Muslim faith, and I never felt like they wanted to blow me up or chop off my head. I think a lot of the people you are labeling as so called apologists are just saying that you have to look at things from a different perspective. In the American Revolution we were terrorists to Britain. All these stupid suicide bombings and **** are stupid alright, but they are fighting for their country. We used tactics in the revolution that disgusted the British. We didn't always line up and march at each other, we hid in trees and snipped them. Maybe if the rest of the world stopped and took a minute to understand where these people are coming from, we could end this. Instead we say that we are 100% right, they are 100% wrong.

C&CDean

5/15/2008, 05:54 PM

I can't accept that a whole group of people are evil incarnate. I am sorry if that makes me an apologist. I have known a lot of people of the Muslim faith, and I never felt like they wanted to blow me up or chop off my head. I think a lot of the people you are labeling as so called apologists are just saying that you have to look at things from a different perspective. In the American Revolution we were terrorists to Britain. All these stupid suicide bombings and **** are stupid alright, but they are fighting for their country. Maybe if the rest of the world stopped and took a minute to understand where these people are coming from, we could end this. Instead we say that we are 100% right, they are 100% wrong.

I looked in a dictionary just now. Under "naive" it said "Sooner Havok."

Sooner_Havok

5/15/2008, 05:56 PM

I looked in a dictionary just now. Under "naive" it said "Sooner Havok."

I'm not going to attack you back, but I would like you to elaborate your thoughts.

SoonerProphet

5/15/2008, 05:59 PM

Irrespective of whether you like my analogy, the facts are:

1. There were Jewish terrorist groups operating in Palestine in the early half of the 20th century.
2. They demanded the creation of a Jewish state.
3. They attacked and killed civilians.
4. Palestinians who had been living in the region for hundreds of years were forcibly removed to make the Jewish state these terrorist groups had been agitating for.
5. The new Jewish state (Israel) incorporated many of the leaders and/or members of these terrorist groups into the new government.

Again: If there was a terrorist group operating in America (say like, I dunno, Al-Qaeda), and a new country was forcibly made of our territory, and leaders of said terrorist group were put into positions of authority in the new government, I expect we Americans might be just a little bit irate.

And as such: It's no wonder Palestinians are aggravated about the situation.

Look, I'm more or less "pro-Israel." It's a democratic country, and it's our ally. But you'll never, ever ever have peace in the Middle East so long as you pretend that the Palestinians don't have a reason to be hopping ****ing mad.

Doesn't get more clear than this. Religion, whether Christian, Muslim, Jew, Torah, Koran, the Bible, just acts to muddy the issue and generate nationalist and even pan-nationalist political movements.

The Irgun and the Stern Gang were in every sense of the definition, "terrorist" groups. Yitzhak Shamir and Menachim Begin were members of these groups and leaders of Israel. Incidentally, these movements where not religious, but nationalists.

Israel has every political, historical, and yes, even religious reason do exist. However, the must exist within the confines of international law and and eye towards demography. Hell, the IDF is perhaps one of the best soldiering outfits on the planet, they have earned their status as a nation, no doubt.

There sure are a lot of terrorist apologists on this board. Well really not that many, maybe a few.

So, we've bent them over and ****ed them so bad they need to blow up innocent people huh? I don't recall us going over there and stealing their oil. I don't recall us going over there and closing their mosques or telling them how to worship. I don't remember us doing a whole lot over there other than coming to the aid of a small country who was getting their teeth kicked in by Saddam, and then turning him over so the locals could hang him.

I don't give a **** what you apologists say, we haven't done anything to warrant the 9/11s. And Sicem, dude, you lost all cred a long time ago when you got lost searching for your brain in your rectum somewhere south of Waco on the way to Houston in your Miata while getting cold-conked by a biker and getting bitch-slapped by some whore who likes real men on her way to a Ron Paul gathering to bitch about nasty cigar smoking lesbians that attend some baptist university........

Nobody is an apologist. You should brush up on some mideast history.

Vaevictis

5/15/2008, 05:59 PM

There sure are a lot of terrorist apologists on this board. Well really not that many, maybe a few.

There sure are a lot who like arguing via straw man around here.

So, we've bent them over and ****ed them so bad they need to blow up innocent people huh?

Who said that? That's right. Nobody. Straw man.

It's pathetic and disgusting, and oh so typical of the corrupted discourse in this country. It's no wonder things are so ****ed up when it's SOP to twist people's words or deliberately stuff words into their mouths instead of taking points on their merits.

Hermann Goring is in the pits of hell right now, laughing his *** off at us.

I don't remember us doing a whole lot over there other than coming to the aid of a small country who was getting their teeth kicked in by Saddam, and then turning him over so the locals could hang him.

Go look up the history of the Zionist movement in the early part of the 20th century. Take note of the names of the people involved. Take note of the terrorist attacks (say, King David Hotel, a JEWISH terrorist attack on civilians).

Then take note of the fact that many of the same folks involved ended up in positions of power in Israel (Ariel Sharon, for example), which we had a critical role in creating and maintaining.

Take note of the fact that we backed the Brit's play in Operation Ajax (which was over oil) to overthrow a democratically elected government in Iran. Take note of the fact that we installed a dictator (the Shah), and backed his intelligence agency which then turned around and started disappearing and torturing dissidents.

Take note of the fact that we backed Saddam -- a guy who, once again, disappeared and tortured dissidents.

There, that's a beginning. You now have no excuse. You now cannot say, "Oh, I can't recall us ever..." Don't believe me? Look it up.

I don't give a **** what you apologists say, we haven't done anything to warrant the 9/11s.

Straw man.

Middle Eastern anger at the US is justified. The way they express it (eg, attacking innocent civilians) is not.

C&CDean

5/15/2008, 06:09 PM

yeah? Well my dad can still kick your dad's ***. And he's 80.

Harry Beanbag

5/15/2008, 06:16 PM

There sure are a lot of terrorist apologists on this board. Well really not that many, maybe a few.

Yep. It's like a broken record. You would almost think that all these handles are actually the same person typing it's scripted so well.

SoonerProphet

5/15/2008, 06:17 PM

Yep. It's like a broken record. You would almost think that all these handles are actually the same person typing it's scripted so well.

Super cereal? C'mon Harry, your better than that.

Harry Beanbag

5/15/2008, 06:19 PM

Super cereal? C'mon Harry, your better than that.

I don't even know what you mean by super cereal, but these days I don't really have the time to wade into these messes as much as I used to.

Sooner_Havok

5/15/2008, 06:20 PM

I looked in a dictionary just now. Under "naive" it said "Sooner Havok."

2.having or showing a lack of experience, judgment, or information; credulous: She's so naive she believes everything she reads. He has a very naive attitude toward politics.

3.having or marked by a simple, unaffectedly direct style reflecting little or no formal training or technique: valuable naive 19th-century American portrait paintings.

4.not having previously been the subject of a scientific experiment, as an animal

5. Sooner Havok.

;)

SoonerProphet

5/15/2008, 06:26 PM

How about actually addessing the issues on the table, not tossing out invectives as if that somehow seals the deal.

You have argued for an increased military, and obviously a subsequent budget increase and mental aptitude decrease. To do what, police the globe on an even grander scale, effect change on the Sudan, or simply to blow **** up?

Frozen Sooner

5/15/2008, 06:33 PM

I vote for blowing **** up.

It may not be an effective long-term strategy, but I know I always feel better on GTA IV when I get a rocket launcher and sit on a rooftop blowing random passerby up.

StoopTroup

5/15/2008, 06:34 PM

I just wish G-Dub-Ya would concentrate on cleaning up his own mess instead of worrying about what Obama thinks.

It would seem to me that G-Dub-Ya is again stepping on the toes of John McCain by not letting him handle the Obama issues.

Sooner_Havok

5/15/2008, 06:35 PM

I vote for blowing **** up.

It may not be an effective long-term strategy, but I know I always feel better on GTA IV when I get a rocket launcher and sit on a rooftop blowing random passerby up.

:mad: **** off dip ****

olevetonahill

5/15/2008, 06:36 PM

Ok the Olevets gonna weigh in fer a Minute
I dont really give a ratsass about Politics In General and Libs in Particular
Biggest #1 in MHO
Is that We The USofA Do not negotiate with Terriosts
#2 W didnt Attack obamama.
#3 the Dems took as an attack and Counter attacked.
#4 If you really think your Opinions On Politics, On a sports related Message Board , Count for anything . You need to go to your Proctoligist.
Ok Im going Back to trying to Contact Drunkin aliens , Carry on .:D

StoopTroup

5/15/2008, 06:38 PM

Ok the Olevets gonna weigh in fer a Minute
I dont really give a ratsass about Politics In General and Libs in Particular
Biggest #1 in MHO
Is that We The USofA Do not negotiate with Terriosts
#2 W didnt Attack obamama.
#3 the Dems took as an attack and Counter attacked.
#4 If you really think your Opinions On Politics, On a sports related Message Board , Count for anything . You need to go to your Proctoligist.
Ok Im going Back to trying to Contact Drunkin aliens , Carry on .:D

Take me to your Leader.

"Leader" is code for "still" BeerToWine. :D

Sooner_Havok

5/15/2008, 06:38 PM

Ok the Olevets gonna weigh in fer a Minute
I dont really give a ratsass about Politics In General and Libs in Particular
Biggest #1 in MHO
Is that We The USofA Do not negotiate with Terriosts
#2 W didnt Attack obamama.
#3 the Dems took as an attack and Counter attacked.
#4 If you really think your Opinions On Politics, On a sports related Message Board , Count for anything . You need to go to your Proctoligist.
Ok Im going Back to trying to Contact Drunkin aliens , Carry on .:D

Don't forget to send them the pictures of the giants with big boobs ;)

olevetonahill

5/15/2008, 06:42 PM

Don't forget to send them the pictures of the giants with big boobs ;)

Them bastages aint gettin MY pron ! Less they Gonna show Me some alien VA,VA :D

StoopTroup

5/15/2008, 06:44 PM

I bet alien pron is some sick twisted stuff.

http://www.digitalgypsy.com/vfxlog/archives/film/hitch1.jpg

olevetonahill

5/15/2008, 06:50 PM

I bet alien pron is some sick twisted stuff.

http://www.digitalgypsy.com/vfxlog/archives/film/hitch1.jpg

Why you think I want some of it ?

Gandalf_The_Grey

5/15/2008, 07:04 PM

What have we done that was horrible to the middle east besides pumping Billions of dollars into their economy?

SoonerBorn68

5/15/2008, 07:08 PM

What have we done that was horrible to the middle east besides pumping Billions of dollars into their economy?