I am still shocked over the fact that I had never heard - in my entire life, until recently - about the Holodomor.

It's about an abominable mass-murder scheme perpetrated by a (predominantly) Jewish gang of thugs (financed by some of the richest, mostly Jewish bankers of this planet) which took place in and around the Ukraine back in the 1930's. Not so long ago, if you think about it. My parents were born around that time.

For this forum (which deals with propaganda and false / suppressed information) to NOT have a thread about the Holodomor is pretty embarrassing. I now wish to make up for this. I HAVE TO. I'm sure every human being on this planet has heard of the "Holocaust" (which apparently killed 6 million people or so). So why has almost NO ONE in this world heard of the Holodomor? (which apparently killed 10+ million people or so). Wow. There must be a little problem here, don't you think?

More than 10 million people apparently starved to death - due to the insane / psychopathic ambitions of a bunch of mega-sponsored (mostly) Jewish thugs. These young 'over-achievers' should now be called out for what they were: pathetic / despicable / murderous / racist / genocidal monsters.

For those who have little time on their hands and need a quick introduction to the HOLODOMOR, I have embedded below a most eloquent video which summarizes the subject. You may want to disregard the last few minutes of it, which just features some scenes from your average Hollywood scare-mongering movie. You can then look up for yourself the other (rare) HOLODOMOR videos and articles available over the internets - a mere handful, as it is. In any case, please get familiar with the HOLODOMOR - the most horrific (yet most unknown and 'unsung') mass-murder of our times. How come we have never heard of the HOLODOMOR tragedy? Why does the MSM censor it?

Then, ask yourself this question: could the highly publicized (and highly controversial) Holocaust - constantly promoted on Tell-lie-vision year after year (what with outlandish 'survivor tales' featuring piss-poor veteran actors) - possibly be just a 'smokescreen' raised to cover up the very real Holodomor? If you have ever wondered about the REAL MOTIVE for the incessant, obsessive, excruciating Holocaust propaganda, you may now have finally found it.

The proposed law was drafted by MP Oleksandr Feldman, the founder of the Ukrainian Jewish Committee. It defines the Holodomor as the “genocide of the Ukrainian people” and the Holocaust as the “genocide of the Jewish people”, and proposes that denial of either be grounds for fines or imprisonment.

Coming from a Jewish Ukrainian, it looks like an attempt to ultimately reinforce the Holocaust story by linking it to the Holodomor. This way it would be also more difficult for people to think that the victims of the Holocaust could have been responsible for the Holodomor. And of course it would bring only further criminalization of thoughts and opinions, which I can't endorse.

But what's interesting is that

Efraim Zuroff, chief Nazi hunter at the Simon Wiesenthal Center, blasted the bill, stating that it equated the Holodomor and the Holocaust, which he termed “a gross distortion of the history of the Holocaust typical of the efforts to equate other tragedies which are not the same as the Holocaust with the crimes of the Nazis.”

Feldman, according to Zuroff, is “doing a disservice to the memory of the Holocaust by linking it to a tragedy that is not equivalent.”

And that's funny because if you believe in the holocaust exactly as the official story says it happened, the Holodomor was the same thing: a purposeful extermination of an ethnic group.

So what makes it different in the "Nazi Hunter"'s mind?

Is he maybe implying that the purposeful extinction of the Jews was more meaningful than that of Christian goyim because Jewish lives hold more value?

*One thing is for sure: in the (rare) documentaries about the Holodomor, you won't see any pathetic / tatooed 'Spielberg'-actors playing the part of purported survivors of this unspeakable genocide. The Ukrainian oldtimers featured in this clip are as genuine as you can get:

*The book 'Under The Sign Of The Scorpion' by Estonian writer Jüri Lina is obligatory reading for anyone wishing to learn what the so-called "Russian Revolution" was all about - and who was really behind it. I will only quote a short passage of the book here so as not to be wrongly accused of 'exaggerating' (in my first post above) when I wrote that the perpetrators of the Holodomor were mostly Jews:

"Eighty per cent of the whole commissariat were Jews. All the chiefs wereJews. The Vice-People's Commissary for Military Affairs was YefraimShchklyansky, who had arrived with the third train from Switzerland. Hissubordinates were, among others, Yemelyan Yaroslavsky (actually MineiGubelman) and Semyon Nakhimson. The following were members of themilitary council: Arkadi Rosengoltz, Mikhail Lashevich, Robert Rimm,Joseph Unschlicht, D. Weinman, Moisei Lisovsky, Isaac Zelinsky, GermanBitker, Moisei Rukhimovich, Bela Kun (actually Aaron Kohn), GrigoriSokolnikov (actually Brilliant) and Josef Khorovsky.

The reader will understand that it is nearly impossible to name all thoseinvolved. These lists were released only in 1990. People had no idea of thereal situation.

Nearly all the chiefs of the concentration camps were Jews. The mostinfamous of these were: Naftali Frenkel, Matvei Berman, Aaron Soltz,Yakov Rappaport, Lazar Kogan. According to the Jewish researcher andpublicist Arkadi Vaksberg, eleven out of twelve chiefs of camps in theGULAG were Jews. (Alexander Vaksberg, "Lubyanka", Stockholm,1993.) "

Of course, other (non-Jewish) forces were also at play in this monstrous deception sold to the world - as you will find out by reading Jüri Lina's book, a highly recommended read if there ever was one.

The Canadian government has declared a national Holomodor Memorial day, (the 4th Saturday of November) .

There is a research institute called the "Holomodor research and Education Consortium" that is working towards informing and educating

Activities of the HREC Education Component (headed by Valentina Kuryliw) are focused on inclusion of the Holodomor in schools, curricula, and other educational venues and development of instructional materials and training programs.

I am not sure why you refer to the Holodomor as the "true Jewish holocaust" Simon. Here are some "Basic Facts" from the site linked above;

The term Holodomor (death by hunger, in Ukrainian) refers to the starvation of millions of Ukrainians in 1932–33 as a result of Soviet policies. The Holodomor can be seen as the culmination of an assault by the Communist Party and Soviet state on the Ukrainian peasantry, who resisted Soviet policies. This assault occurred in the context of a campaign of intimidation and arrests of Ukrainian intellectuals, writers, artists, religious leaders, and political cadres, who were seen as a threat to Soviet ideological and state-building aspirations.

Between 1917 and 1921, Ukraine briefly became an independent country and fought to retain its independence before succumbing to the Red Army and being incorporated into the Soviet Union. In the 1920s, Soviet central authorities, seeking the support of the populace, allowed for some cultural autonomy through the policy known as “indigenization.”

By the end of the 1920s, Soviet leader Joseph Stalin decided to curtail Ukraine’s cultural autonomy, launching the intimidation, arrest, imprisonment and execution of thousands of Ukrainian intellectuals, church leaders, as well as Communist Party functionaries who had supported Ukraine’s distinctiveness.

At the same time, Stalin ordered the collectivization of agriculture. The majority of Ukrainians, who were small-scale or subsistence farmers, resisted. The state confiscated the property of the independent farmers and forced them to work on government collective farms. The more prosperous farmers (owning a few head of livestock, for example) and those who resisted collectivization were branded kulaks (rich peasants) and declared enemies of the state who deserved to be eliminated as a class. Thousands were thrown out of their homes and deported.

It seems as if the Holomodor was a direct result of the actions of the Soviet Union, and its collectivism/communist policies . I have not read anything on the HREC site mentioning any Jewish involvement, or connection. How did you make the leap from the Soviet's ( government, ruling body) to the Jews (religious/ethnic group) as the conspirators/perpetrators responsible for this atrocity?

This is an excerpt from the International Encyclopedia of the First World War:

Introduction↑

The hostile relationship of the Russian military, civil authorities and parts of the population on the western periphery of the Russian Empire to the Jews during World War I was well known to contemporaries and was even defined by them as a “war”. Indeed, trying to convince Nicholas II, Emperor of Russia (1868-1918) to modify the anti-Jewish policy of the General Headquarters, Finance Minister Petr L. Bark (1869-1937) told him in the summer of 1915, “we cannot and must not simultaneously wage war against Germany and the Jews. In that case we cannot count on victory.”[1]

The concept of a “national” military doctrine based on citizens’ loyalty and willingness to sacrifice for the sake of the motherland, can be seen to have influenced the Russian army’s aggressive policy toward the Jews. In the years preceding World War I, the army leadership manifested an increasingly negative attitude toward the Jews. Russian generals regarded the Jews as a harmful and dangerous element of the population that was unsuited for military service and would be disloyal in wartime. The army was more anti-Jewish in its orientation than the majority of society. According to the military, the Jews’ lack of military might did not eliminate the potential danger from the Jews, who were feared to directly aid the enemy and exert a demoralizing effect on Russian soldiers. Simplistic logic convinced the military and civil authorities that the Jews ─ a persecuted and oppressed minority ─ could not be Russian patriots and would not want to make sacrifices for the motherland. “Progressive” military thinking in the prewar years propounded an active policy of neutralizing “disloyal elements” of the population as a condition for military success.

The military command’s negative stereotypes of the Jews were formed in the pre-war years. These stereotypes were exasperated by the broad authority granted to the military command in the sphere of civil rule near the front and the unforeseen difficulty of military actions and the Russian army’s resulting failure and defeat. Strong anti-Semitic sentiments shared by a group of high-ranking commanders (including Nikolai N. Yanushkevich (1868-1918), the Chief of Staff of the General Headquarters), added an element of personal hatred to the anti-Jewish measures of the army.

Russian Army Anti-Jewish Measures↑

From the first days of the war, Russian commanders pointed to the alleged disloyalty of Russia’s Jewish population, its direct complicity with the enemy, and its involvement in espionage. Utilizing the broad authority entrusted to military authorities by wartime acts, the army began to solve the “problem” of Jewish disloyalty. In this “struggle” the army expelled Jews from various localities, took hostages, and restricted the movement of Jews near the front line. The General Headquarters (Stavka) officially adopted these measures in a published statement in January 1915 that set forth the charges against the Jews. No distinction was made between Jews who were Russian citizens and Jews in occupied Galicia. The proposed measures were either supposed to ensure the Jews’ loyalty by instilling fear of expulsion or execution, or to eliminate the Jews’ “harmfulness” by restricting contacts between the troops and Jews.

As a direct result of this January 1915 declaration, the Russian command made several attempts to carry out a mass deportation of the Jewish population from the front lines (in particular, from Plotsk gubernia in the Kingdom of Poland and from occupied Galicia). These attempts were unsuccessful because the policy of mass deportations required precise coordination between the military and civil authorities both near the front lines (where the governors and police were responsible for implementing deportations) and in the rear, which had to receive the expelled population. The military command was unable to attain such cooperation because of the strong opposition to deportations by civil authorities on various levels. In May 1915, however, about 200,000 Jews were expelled from the provinces of Kovno and Kurland; this mass deportation was carried out by the Commander of the X. Army General Nikolai A. Radkievich (1851–?) with the support of General Yanushkievich from the General Headquarters. The masses of expelled Jews disrupted transport operations and disorganized the army’s rear during the crucial summer months of 1915. This was the sole deportation on such a scale, but for the various ranks of the military command, local expulsions remained a convenient and widely used means of clearing the battle area of the undesirable presence of the Jewish population. From 1914 to 1916 at least 189 Jewish communities in the Russian Empire, Galicia and Bukovina suffered from deportations and expulsions.

Hostage-taking of Jews, a measure that affected the entire Jewish population near the front, was also considered legitimate. As of May 1915, hostage-taking, which was simpler to carry out than expulsions, was supposed to replace the latter as a basic means of assuring the Jews’ loyalty. Both general expulsions and the taking of civilian Jewish hostages became symbols of the military authorities’ repressive policy toward the Jews, which was widely discussed in the country (including at the meetings of the Council of Ministers) and worldwide.

Omaxsteve, at this point I have to wonder if you are 1: playing dumb or 2: if you actually are dumb.I'll let you figure out for yourself just why I can only consider / entertain these two, equally worrisome options.Tsar Nicholas II would probably have agreed with me - and wisely deported you too, around 1914-1916.

Here's a video with chilling drawings and info about the Gulags in Soviet Union, defined as "Jewish-run camps for the extermination of Christians". They run from 1929 to 1953, and millions of people were killed in them (Wiki's estimates range from more than 1 million to 10 millions victims), in addition to the other millions of people killed in the Holodomor.

jumpy64 wrote:Hi, Simon, I applaud your initiative to start a thread on the Holodomor.

I agree that covering up for the Holodomor could be part of the reason for the Holocaust propaganda, although I don't think it's the main reason.

Thanks, Jumpy - I only regret it took me so long to even hear about it (the Holodomor, that is!)...

Meanings of the words 'HOLODOMOR' and 'HOLOCAUST'

I'm doing my best (in this time of 'shock over my own ignorance') not to engage in hasty / nasty 'conspiratorial musings' regarding the reasons why this far greater mass-murder (than the so-called Holocaust as of its official casualty tolls) has been suppressed by the media for so long. My discomfort over learning about it only recently even extended, the other day, to thoughts about my dear father (who passed away in 1990) whom I always looked up to for his vast / encyclopedic knowledge of general world affairs. Why, oh why, I asked myself, did my father NEVER mention the Holodomor to me? I was then partly comforted today - by reading the following lines (in the article linked below - a must read for everyone):

"A genocide was carried out against the Ukrainian population in 1932–1933, which subsequently was denied, dismissed and hidden from world scrutiny for more than seven decades. Although Ukrainians in the West had long maintained that millions had died, including several million children, as the result of a state-organized famine in 1932–1933, the true nature of the Holodomor came to light only as archives in Moscow and Ukraine were opened following the collapse of the Soviet Union in 1991."

So, during his entire life, my father (1929-1990) probably never had a chance to know about the Holodomor ! Imagine that!

Now, am I suggesting / or claiming that the 'Holocaust' was a complete fantasy concocted / and solely designed to cover up the 'Holomodor'? No. Am I denying the existence of German WWII prison camps? No. However, I cannot keep myself from wondering about the (entirely coincidental?) similarity between the "Holocaust" and "Holodomor" words - and how they came to be used to define the two events.

Let's see, here's the ethymological origin of the word 'Holodomor' (from the website linked below):"The word Holodomor is used to describe death or murder inflicted by starvation. It comes from two Ukrainian words: “holod,” meaning starvation or famine, and “moryty,” to inflict death."

Alright, so the word 'Holomodor' certainly sounds like a quite pertinent / logical definition for what happened in Ukraine in 1932-33.

Here's now the ethymological origin of the word 'Holocaust':From the Yad Vashem website: "The word Holocaust, which came into use in the 1950s as the corresponding term, originally meant a sacrifice burnt entirely on the altar."From the Oxford dictionary: "A Jewish sacrificial offering which was burnt completely on an altar."

Now, I find this a bit curious. I mean, does what (reportedly) happened in the WWII German prison camps have anything to do with "a (Jewish) sacrificial offering burning completely on an altar"?

A recent post on this forum - by our member Painterman - comes to mind : here's an excerpt of it:

Painterman wrote:"Dilution (Trademark) - The use of a mark or trade name in commerce sufficiently similar to a famous mark that by association it reduces, or is likely to reduce, the public's perception that the famous mark signifies something unique, singular or particular.... Dilution is comprised of two principal harms: blurring and tarnishment. Dilution by blurring occurs when the distinctiveness of a famous mark is impaired by association with another similar mark or trade name. Dilution by tarnishment occurs when the reputation of a famous mark is harmed through association with another similar mark or trade name."viewtopic.php?p=2397524#p2397524

A bon entendeur.

**************************This article (a book extract) is a must read for everyone who wishes to acquire some basic knowledge about the Holodomor :

I just found this lengthy article on Jewishmag - about the true meaning of the word 'holocaust' - and its first appearance in the press. It makes for some pretty interesting reading. Perhaps my favourite part of the dissertation is the following :

"People who dislike the use of holocaust to describe the slaughter of the Jews during World War II object to the term because if holocaust is used as a sacrifice to G-d and the Jews are the ones being sacrificed to Him, then what does that make the Nazis? Are they the noble and righteous priests offering up the sacrifice to please G-d? Are they fulfilling a promise they made with G-d? Will they now be favored by G-d because they have offered up such a bountiful sacrifice to Him? Did G-d demand that the Nazis offer up the Jews as a sacrifice?"http://www.jewishmag.com/107mag/holocaustword/holocaustword.htm

And, by ignoring the broad pre 1950s secular use of "holocaust," scholarly commentators, in my opinion, leave the impression that the word jumped out of the Bible into their hands and that any use of the word to describe a non-Jewish catastrophe is illegitimate. To help dispel such impressions consider the seven uses of "holocaust" in the Palestine Post of 1938:

"... the French press is worried lest there be some connection between the bloodless holocaust of German Generals and Ambassadors and the persistent reports that Mussolini is about to intervene in Spain ..." (6 February, 1938 p. 4, col. 4.)

"For the first time since last September Japanese aeroplanes again raided Canton ... Although the damage exceeds September's holocaust, the death toll was somewhat less ..." (29 May 1938, p. 1, col. 1) "After the Haifa holocaust ... " (17 July 1938, p. 8, col. 1)

"Yesterday was also an anniversary of destruction. It was the day on which Great Britain entered the World War 24 years ago. Since that holocaust swept over the world, it has had no real peace ..." (5 August 1938, p. 6, col. 2)

"... the holocaust of 1914-18 ..." (11 September 1938, p. 8, col. 3)

"... thanks to the general dread of yet another European holocaust ... [Hitler] has brought them peace with territorial aggrandisement. (11 October 1938, p. 6, col. 2)

"... the planning system of the Bolshevist regime has broken down ... The holocaust of directors and engineers shot as "wreckers" to stimulate others has brought only spasms ..." (27 October 1938, p. 3, col. 2)A 1940 Palestine Post advertisement for "Mandrake the Magician" promised "a flaming holocaust of thrills" (31 May 1940, p. 10). A column in the Palestine Post of 26 July 1946 reads in part: "There are women ... whose household labours resounds [with] the constant ringing of crashing china and glasses ... Those glasses that escape the holocaust of housework ..." (p. 8, cols. 1-2.)

Why the writer thinks this word was chosen to describe it's current content is especially interesting.

IN THE UNITED STATES of the early 1960s the most common referent of "holocaust" was nuclear war / nuclear destruction. For example, The Reporter of 17 August 1961 titled a review of two books on nuclear war and nuclear strategy, "A Cold Look at the Holocaust." And the cover of the 4 November 1961 Nation displays in upper case: "SHELTERS WHEN THE HOLOCAUST COMES."

Beyond the example of Israeli usage, American Jewish writers probably abandoned such words as "disaster," "catastrophe," and "massacre" in favor of "holocaust" in the 1960s because "holocaust" with its evocation of the then actively feared nuclear mass death effectively conveyed something of the horror of the Jewish experience during World War II.

The context of Wiesel's first employment of "holocaust" suggests that the "nuclear holocaust" sense of the word was the association that drove his selection of "holocaust" to refer to the Jewish catastrophe:

simonshack wrote:I am still shocked over the fact that I had never heard - in my entire life, until recently - about the Holodomor.

I’m not, Simon! The Armenian Holocaust, which the JPM has denied for a century, was a test run for the Holodomor. The JPM infiltrated Turkey via the “Young Turk” movement & convinced their leaders that if Russia attacked Turkey the Armenians would side with the Russians. Under the guise of preventing an Armenian rebellion Turkey implemented mandatory gun confiscation laws. Concurrently, the JPM (working in unison with Armenian political & religious leaders) convinced Armenians that they (as very special Christians) should forcefully resist Turkish oppression. Their martyrdom would be rewarded with an independent Armenian nation upon the collapse of the Ottoman Empire.

Long story short, purportedly 1.5 million Armenians were systematically slaughtered & Armenia became a satellite state of the Soviet Union. If you want to get into the nitty-gritty I recommend the following book.

I am a Christian (which I see as an extension of G-d's grace and salvation to good non-Jewish people, as to me, Judaism is meant for those of Hebrew descent). I grew up between two worlds: the Middle East and the United States. I've always loved people of different cultures, comfort my Jewish or partially Jewish friends on their remembrance of the Holocaust, and I also weep for the genocide that befell my people.

I am also an Armenian.

My biggest question: If the messianic age was to begin tomorrow, would you or any other Jew revert to the ruling and start slaughtering all Armenians and any other people who have been labeled Amalekites, or would you finally understand that we are not Amalek, but a good people? Please be honest here. If the answer is yes, no harm can come your way or my way (unless of course the messianic age began and I was killed based on race). I would feel no hatred towards the Jews (regardless of what you say, some Jews are my best friends, and I love them and believe many are beyond the evils of racism, because they know it leads to ethnic cleansing which is immoral). I would only be saddened, and wiser for my question. If the answer is no, I would still feel saddened that a lot of other Jews aren't as enlightened as you are.

I really hope you respond to this because all I want to know is the truth, and to properly mourn for any Jews who see fit to be racist, because I believe it is intense hatred of others that separates us from G-d, as when you hate, it isolates you from fellow humans and makes you blind to the Lord's good works and teachings. G-d is here for all nations, and if there are Amalekites that exist today, however mixed and peppered throughout the world they may be, G-d is here for them too. They were after all created for a reason... maybe to get Israelites to band together and defend their existence as a nation?

Whatever you say, I am proud of my Armenian and Christian heritage, and dislike the instances where Jews have implied or outright lied that we are Amalekites because we don't like Amalekites either. They attacked the stragglers of an escaping people, and murdered innocents like bandits! It was very shameful, and an act that no Armenian would ever do. We have a strong sense of honor, where the vast majority of us (because there are always a few bad apples in each group) fight only to defend the weak, and wish to protect our people and friends as well as anyone else who needs our assistance. I only hope Israel would lead the way to reciprocating the favor by sincerely denouncing the name-calling of Armenians as Amalekites. (It would be nice if they would recognize the Armenian Genocide, just as we recognize the Holocaust, but that would be asking for a miracle.)

Thank you for taking the time to read this message. And please, swear to Yahweh that you'll be completely truthful in your reply to me. Regardless of your beliefs, I will not judge you negatively or positively as only G-d has that right. He is the judge, the jury are your deeds, and I am but a humble witness.

Love, Ruth

Dear Ruth,

I do empathize with the feelings you have about your people's genocide. As you know, in many aspects, the history of your people is very comparable to the history of the Jewish people.

I am aware that some historians in the tenth century, in trying to define Amalek, did propose to identify them with the Armenians, but Amalek was also identified with other people like the Khasars.

However, this identification was not the cause of the violence inflicted to the Armenians. It was the Ottoman rule that wanted to eliminate the Armenians because they were not believers of Islam.

In Jewish tradition, the Amalekites came to represent the archetypal enemy of the Jews. For example, Haman, from the Book of Esther, is called the Agagite, which is the title of the Amalekite rulers Agag. The term has been used non-genetically, to refer to certain types of enemies of Judaism throughout history, including Adolf Hitler. Blotting the memory of Amalek as I understand it, is fighting against evil wherever it is, fighting against those who attack the feeble and the helpless.

The good rabbi ends her response with tried & true narcissistic righteous indignation!

I find very insulting your accusations that the Jewish people are at the origin of the Armenian genocide or that they ever intend to kill the Armenians (even in the Messianic time when people will supposedly live in peace with one another). I know that you are under the influence of anti-Jewish and anti-Israeli organizations. I read their propaganda on sites like asbarez.com, the pravda, realzionistnews.com, and more.

I feel very saddened that an Armenian woman who seems deeply religious and whose people suffered so much from a kind of Amalek, did not take upon herself to verify accusations before stating them. I can say only one thing: Jews are not responsible for the Armenian genocide! And I wish you would cease spreading this idea.

ICfreely wrote:The Armenian Holocaust, which the JPM has denied for a century, was a test run for the Holodomor. The JPM infiltrated Turkey via the “Young Turk” movement & convinced their leaders that if Russia attacked Turkey the Armenians would side with the Russians. Under the guise of preventing an Armenian rebellion Turkey implemented mandatory gun confiscation laws. Concurrently, the JPM (working in unison with Armenian political & religious leaders) convinced Armenians that they (as very special Christians) should forcefully resist Turkish oppression. Their martyrdom would be rewarded with an independent Armenian nation upon the collapse of the Ottoman Empire.

Long story short, purportedly 1.5 million Armenians were systematically slaughtered & Armenia became a satellite state of the Soviet Union. If you want to get into the nitty-gritty I recommend the following book.

It must be an excellent book, coming from the dissident-Jewish guy of Norwegian origins who already gave us "Albert Einstein: The Incorrigible Plagiarist" and "The Manufacture and Sale of Saint Einstein".

The purpose of WWI was to break up the big empires so that all the small people would form racially and ethnically segregated small nations throughout the region, and then the Jews would be safe when they move to Palestine. Because they feared that if they simply took Palestine from the Sultan, as the Rothschild had offered to do, that the Arabs, especially Egyptian Arabs, would turn against them and the Catholic Church would view them as the anti-Christ and crush them. So they had to be more clever about it. And one of the reasons they wanted to give that it was necessary for the Jews to form a nation in Palestine was the fact that small ethnicities were subject to genocides and persecutions. And they themselves committed genocide against the Armenians to set the example for the world that it was necessary for the Jews to form a nation so that this would not happen to them.

At this point the interviewer asks: "So basically the Armenians were sacrificed to form a Jewish state?"

Exactly. And the word that was used, long before the European Holocaust, was Holocaust, which means a burnt offering or sacrifice. And in the literature from the 1890s to about 1939 the Armenian genocide was often referred to as a Holocaust. And you had traitors among the Armenians, especially in the Armenian Church and in the Armenian relations with Britain, which was controlled by the Zionist Rothschilds, who were willing to sacrifice Armenians in order to bring this about. They were willing to sacrifice a million and a half of their own people so that at the end of the war they would be given an independent nation. And I’m sure many of them were crypto-Jews.

So from this perspective, since Jews still didn’t want to go to Palestine after WWI, another “burnt offering” had to be made, this time offering the lives of Jews themselves to benefit the State of Israel and have enough Jews willing to go there finally.

That’s where probably the idea of having so many reportedly burned bodies of Jews in Nazi concentration camps came from. The idea of a “burnt offering” had to be stressed. Or maybe “overstressed” is a better word in this case…

Long story short, purportedly 1.5 million Armenians were systematically slaughtered & Armenia became a satellite state of the Soviet Union. If you want to get into the nitty-gritty I recommend the following book.

omaxsteve wrote:The book that you linked to, Icfreely, begins as follows; ...... In conformity with the Jewish plans revealed in the Protocols of the Learned Elders of Zion .........

I would recommend that one should first do a bit of research about that controversial (to say the least) publication before spending their time reading this 400 + page document.

Much like ICFreely, I fully agree: one should first do a bit of research about the PLEZ document - before even bringing it up, that is. It seems you may wish to do so yourself, Omaxsteve - instead of just curtly describing it as a "controversial (to say the least)" document, thereby not-so-subtly implying that you are a 'PLEZ forgery advocate'.

To wit:

"Probably so much money and energy were never before in history expended on the effort to suppress a single document." The period of 1920 "marks the end of the time when the Jewish question could be impartially openly discussed in public." (Douglas Reed—"The Controversy of Zion").

I have personally spent quite some time doing just that - i.e. researching the PLEZ subject matter. I can assure you that I have looked at it objectively / from a variety of angles, yet it would be a tedious affair for me to list you all of the sources and articles I have perused over the years. Therefore, and for it's worth, I will for now just personally recommend to this forum's readers to read what I consider the most fair & balanced, well-documented & referenced (and no-nonsense) writings on the subject, authored by Ivan Fraser - "The Protocols of the Learned Elders of Zion: Proof of an Ancient Conspiracy".

Here's what I deem to be the 'Ockham's razor' evidence that the PLEZ document was no forgery - namely the (failed) attempt to pass legislation / seek a court judgment (in Berne, Switzerland -1993) so as to 'legally establish' its purported fraudulent nature :

Excerpt of "The Protocols of the Learned Elders of Zion: Proof of an Ancient Conspiracy" - by Ivan Fraser

The often cited "fact" that the Protocols are a "proven fraud", is easily dismissed, as it is actually entirely untrue and based upon a very specific court case. Numerous unsuccessful attempts had been made by world Jewry to have the Protocols denounced as a forgery. But it was not until 1933 that any legal action was taken in this respect:

"On 26th June, 1933, the Federation of Jewish Communities of Switzerland and the Berne Jewish Community brought an action against five members of the Swiss National Front, seeking a judgment that the Protocols were a forgery and a prohibition of their publication. The procedure of the Court was astounding, the provisions of the Swiss Civil Code being deliberately set aside. Sixteen witnesses called by the plaintiffs were heard, but only one of the forty witnesses called by the defendants was allowed a hearing. The judge allowed the plaintiffs to appoint two private stenographers to keep the register of proceedings during the hearing of their witnesses, instead of entrusting the task to a Court official.

In view of these and similar irregularities, it was not surprising that, after the case had lasted just on two years, the Court pronounced the Protocols to be a forgery and demoralising literature. The decision was given on 14th May, 1935, but it was announced in the Jewish Press before it was delivered by the Court?

On 1st November, 1937, the Swiss Court of Criminal Appeal quashed this judgment in its entirety. Jewish propagandists, however, still declare that the Protocols have been "proved" to be a forgery.

It was natural that the Jews should try to discredit the Protocols, for their growing fame was focussing more public attention on other revealing utterances." (Waters Flowing Eastward—revised and updated by Rev. Denis Fahey).http://www.biblebelievers.org.au/proof.htm#fraud

However, this is by no means the only documented fact / argument presented in Ivan Fraser's exhaustive and methodical debunking of the spurious claims of 'PLEZ forgery'. As it is, since the original link I had saved (to Fraser's PLEZ article) is now dead, I have decided to mirror it integrally on this forum - lest it disappear some day from the interwebs.

By contrast, the stories concocted in support of the "PLEZ forgery" thesis border quite frankly on the ridicule - and sometimes even stoop into 'witty', in-your-face word play... Here's the sort of nonsense you will find, for instance, in "FINAL WARNING: A HISTORY OF THE NEW WORLD ORDER" - by one David Allen Rivera:

Who could have forged the Protocols isn’t known, if in fact it is a forgery. Some researchers claim it was done in Russia, in 1904, by agents of the Czar. However, the general consensus is that it was probably done by Elie de Cyon (Ilya Tsion), a Russian journalist living in Paris, who was an opponent of Sergey Witte, the Russian Minister of Finance.

When Witte took office in 1892, he began to modernize Russia by doubling steel, iron, and coal production; and constructing railroads. He was disliked by those who had their money tied up in agriculture. He caused inflation by abandoning the gold standard in 1898 because of an economic slump. The Protocols say that such economic depressions are caused by the Elders to gain control of the money; and that the gold standard has ruined every country that has adopted it. Researchers say that the economic and financial data could have been extracted from Joly’s book, and applied to Witte, in order to present him as a tool of the Elders of Zion.

So, Cyon allegedly forged and translated the Protocols, expanding them as a satire on Witte. His writings resembled the style used in the Protocols; and he was known to have used another French satire on a dead statesman, by changing the names. In 1897, Gen. Pyotr Ivanovich Rachkovsky, head of the Russian Secret Police in Paris, on instructions from Witte, broke into Cyon’s villa at Territet, Switzerland, to look for additional written attacks on Witte. It is believed that Rachkovsky discovered the Protocols there, and used it for a dual purpose. He could use it against the Jews, claiming it was part of a Jewish conspiracy; and he could reveal that it was written by a Jew, which Cyon was, thus destroying Cyon. It was kind of ironic, that the Russian translation for Cyon’s name, ‘Tsion’, means ‘Zion.http://web.archive.org/web/200408121139 ... ra/fw6.htm