Polls put pressure on Trump heading into next GOP debate

This is a rush transcript from "The Five," October 27, 2015. This copy may not be in its final form and may be updated.

DANA PERINO, CO-HOST: Hello, everyone. I'm Dana Perino, along with Kimberly Guilfoyle, Juan Williams, Eric Bolling and Greg Gutfeld. It is 5 o'clock in New York City and this is "The Five."

The next GOP presidential debate is tomorrow. And Donald Trump may be feeling a little more pressure this time around, that's because he's not leading every poll any more. Ben Carson has not only taken the lead in Iowa, but also for the first time he's now ahead of Trump in a new national poll. The New York Times/CBS News survey shows Carson on top with 26 percent, a four-point lead over the once-unchallenged front-runner who's now had 22 percent. Trump, typically touts polls when he is ahead, but now he is expressing some doubt about them.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

DONALD TRUMP, R-PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: I generally believe in polls. The thing with these polls, they're all so different. They're coming from all over the lot where one guy is up here, and somebody else is up there. You see swings of 10 and 12 points and you know like immediately, even the same day. So right now it's not very scientific. I think it's very hard when you have this many, but overall, Mark, I am a believer in polls. I think they say something. At least they spot a trend.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

PERINO: I think he's right on that Eric. I'm going to go to you first. I have always felt that if you live by the polls, you could die by the polls. And you have to have a bigger campaign plan and strategy than that. I mean, arguing about the methodology, when you once praised the same polls, might be barking up the wrong tree.

ERIC BOLLING, CO-HOST: Absolutely. And then again, this is the first one, I believe, since he announced that on a national level, doesn't have him leading. So it should be interesting, you know how you respond to the idea. Clearly, you can't say I'm leading every poll anymore, but you can say I'm leading in New Hampshire. I'm leading in South Carolina, which is fine. How do you respond, though? Do you pick yourself up and you go forward with policy, should be interesting. And then what happens when you have the downturn, the dip, but you can bring it back up. I mean, that's a very, very, important tell that a candidacy is really strong. Conversely, the people who have been saying, "Well, you know, this time, four years ago or eight years ago, it was Herman Cain or it was so and so, and they start to move up the polls. Will they start touting the polls as, will calibrate this polls are?

PERINO: Well I might -- here's the thing Kimberly, I wanted to ask you. On the bigger picture, what do you attribute the rise of Carson since the last debate? I mean, he's kind of done his book tour. He's done a little bit more media, but he actually is gaining in a lot of the different areas.

KIMBERLY GUILFOYLE, CO-HOST: Yeah, and listen. I think he's really resonating with people more than they have individual contact, and get to meet him. I think his message very strong, you know, Christian in a state like Iowa really matters and is significant. He's sort of slow and steady. Some have called it low energy, but slow and steady, and he's been persuasive in terms of who he is. In terms of his ideology, what he believes in, his religion, his viewpoints on the country, and I think people like how he's very genuine. Again, he's also (inaudible). There are some of the things that really attracted people to Donald Trump. They're finding a place for themselves as well, with Ben Carson.

PERINO: Greg, Trump has been able to punch at Jeb Bush and he's kind of enjoys it. I think he's kind of get a little bit of pleasure out of it, but it's hard to hit Ben Carson.

GREG GUTFELD, CO-HOST: Yeah, he's.

PERINO: He's nice.

GUTFELD: He's -- well, he's.

GUILFOYLE: And handsome.

GUTFELD: Yeah. He's cooler than iced coffee on Pluto. The guy has anti- freeze in his veins. It's why he is a great surgeon. It's because he's -- he's like, he has no -- it doesn't seem to have any anxiety. He's not nervous. And I think, maybe that's admirable. But I got to go back to the - - you know there was another survey that said that, I think 7 out of 10 republicans say it's too soon to even say who they're supporting. So in a weird way.

GUILFOYLE: Yeah.

GUTFELD: It's like when you go shopping for cars. And when you start -- when you walk into the dealership and you look at the most exotic, impractical models. But then, by the end of that day, you buy -- an F, you know an F-150 because it's got the best payload. So it's like, I think right now, we're in the part where we're kind of like looking at these choices as a wish, but not a reality.

PERINO: Like you're maybe thinking you could take home three or four of the vehicles.

GUTFELD: Right, exactly.

PERINO: OK. Juan, where do you see the GOP race shaping up, because there's been movement, we've got a debate tomorrow night. Are you excited? Can you wait until tomorrow night?

JUAN WILLIAMS, CO-HOST: Well, you know, I love debates. I think they're interesting. I like to see what people have to say, until tomorrow night, I expect that Trump is going to have to come out with something a little different. He's going to have to come out and really make a stand. I just want to pick up on the idea that, you know, we shouldn't get too invested in the horse race, it is early. I think those -- what distinguishes this period is that Trump has been ahead for so long, still is in the mix within the margin of error. And if you put together Carson and Trump, you've got about half of the republican voters. So the big story here, looking at the republican electorate -- you ask about Dana is, the consistent love that they're giving to outsiders and the consistent distance we're stiff on.

GUILFOYLE: Right.

WILLIAMS: That's given to people like Jeb Bush and Chris Christie, down at the other end of that spectrum. I just find that it -- I find it really interesting. And come back to something Greg was talking about a moment earlier, even within the horse race at the moment -- most republicans haven't made up their mind. And especially, guess what? People who are backing my pal, Carson, I think it's 80 percent of them say, "Yeah, we're not sure we're going do this." But among Trump's people.

BOLLING: Your pal.

GUILFOYLE: Bandwagon.

BOLLING: Today.

GUILFOYLE: Bandwagon.

WILLIAMS: No, no, no.

BOLLING: The first he's leading. Now he is your pal?

WILLIAMS: No, that's not. Let me tell you -- no, believe me.

GUILFOYLE: I think he's my pal first because I told him not to (inaudible) at me.

WILLIAMS: I can honestly say he's my pal. But I don't -- but anyway, but among Trump supporters, there's a higher percentage of people who say, "I've made up my mind."

GUTFELD: Oh yeah.

WILLIAMS: "I'm a Trump person and no matter what happens I'm stick to the Trump."

GUILFOYLE: They're gonna stick with him.

WILLIAMS: So then you have that, plus Trump's organization. Trump's got real forces on the ground in places like Iowa. Carson is still trying to get that together.

GUILFOYLE: But also.

GUTFELD: He's also on a book tour.

GUILFOYLE: Yes.

WILLIAMS: Yeah, it takes on.

(CROSSTALK)

PERINO: And Donald Trump has book that comes out, any day now?

GUILFOYLE: Dana.

PERINO: Tomorrow?

GUILFOYLE: But also, plus or minus six points of the margin of error on this, which is interesting. Sometimes it's usually like three or four. So there's some sway there and there's four points between the candidates. I'm really curious to see if there's any kind of fluctuation after the debate because we saw, like Carly Fiorina pop up, right? Which is giving people a lot of concern, but now she's kind of had a dip and.

WILLIAMS: Yeah.

GUILFOYLE: Level up.

PERINO: And tomorrow night, Eric -- so the debate is being sponsored by CNBC.

BOLLING: Right.

PERINO: They're -- I guess -- supposedly, people think there will be more of an economic focus. Do you expect to see that?

BOLLING: I do. And that's why I just wrote down. I think you're gonna hear -- like Ben Carson today, the day before the debate says, "If I become president, I will not raise the debt ceiling."

PERINO: Ever.

BOLLING: Right. And literally, what happened within, I think within 30 days of him being sworn into office, we would hit a debt limit and they would have to say, "What are you going to do, Mr. President?" Wow, that's a big statement. And listen, I commend him for doing it, but that is a big thing and I'm sure.

GUILFOYLE: You wouldn't do it or say it?

(CROSSTALK)

BOLLING: No, I know. I'm very interested to see how he answers that. It's a tough question to answer, especially on a debate stage with a lot of people gunning for him. Hey listen, hats off to you, Ben Carson for having the guts to do that on the day before the debate. Also, he did some a little bit of flip-flopping on Medicare, or I'm sorry, on Medicaid recently. First, he said he would abolish it and then he said he would come back with health savings accounts. So yes, I think there's going to be a lot of economy tomorrow night. And for me, (inaudible), I love that stuff. So it will be interesting to see how Donald Trump, Ben Carson. And Marco Rubio, who's kind of flown under the radar a little bit on some of this stuff. Let's see how he answers.

PERINO: I think we are on the same wavelength today, because I want to show a sound bite today from a video that Marco Rubio put out. He's talking about all the questions he probably won't get asked about the debate tomorrow night.

GUILFOYLE: Oh, the 15th.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Hey Mark, how you doing?

SEN. MARCO RUBIO, R-FLA., PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: Hi, what's up?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Hey, you want to answer a few (inaudible) of questions?

RUBIO: Yeah, go ahead.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: First thing you thought this morning?

RUBIO: What time is it?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Twitter or Facebook?

RUBIO: Twitter.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: (inaudible)

RUBIO: If it had not been for my lack of size, speed and talent.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Tupac or Biggie?

RUBIO: Tupac.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: First CD you ever bought?

RUBIO: One of the Prince albums. I forgot which one.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

PERINO: All right. I kind of like that Greg. It's like.

GUTFELD: Where was he walking at? What kind of car was that? Are we sure he's American?

(LAUGHTER)

GUTFELD: Yeah, it's always refreshing to see, you know, somebody who is able to think on their feet and not be so stiff. And this has always been a problem with republicans, is that they're not very good in these situations. He's young enough. He's savvy enough to kind of express himself in way that might, that people under 50 might enjoy.

WILLIAMS: Gregory, I can't believe this. You think that wasn't staged? That wasn't.

GUTFELD: Of course it was staged.

WILLIAMS: Oh, oh, oh, OK.

GUILFOYLE: He's very innocent.

WILLIAMS: He is.

GUTFELD: Yes.

WILLIAMS: He's lovely.

GUILFOYLE: Yes.

PERINO: Tomorrow night, Marco Rubio is actually going to have a different physical position on the stage. He will be between Trump and Bush.

(CROSSTALK)

GUTFELD: And Lindsey Graham is gonna be on the shoulders.

GUILFOYLE: I like all of his answers except, I would have said Biggie, Biggie Smalls, instead of Tupac Shakur word.

WILLIAMS: But let me just say about that, about that. I think it is effective because I think it makes him more human and people can have a more sense of.

PERINO: More human?

WILLIAMS: He's young, he's personable. You know, I get to know him is what I mean by more human.

PERINO: Yeah.

WILLIAMS: But what's really coming into play, I think in Trump's numbers, to draw the circle, is the fact that people are running negative ads about him in Iowa. A club for growth running ads and say, "Hey, you know this is the guy who believes in eminent domain. He'll take your property. This is a guy who was once a democrat. He's just another politician." So I think the long knives are -- is that how you say long knives, long swords are out?

PERINO: Yup.

WILLIAMS: For Donald Trump right now in terms of republican establishment, putting money into ads in -- that are intended to bring him down right now.

GUILFOYLE: People are going after Rubio, too, calling him the GOP Obama.

PERINO: And I think that there is.

WILLIAMS: And guess who that is, somebody below him, Jeb.

GUILFOYLE: Your friend?

WILLIAMS: I know Jeb, but I.

(CROSSTALK)

PERINO: How many pals you have?

WILLIAMS: You know, I spoke to Ben yesterday.

GUILFOYLE: My pal. My pal Ben.

WILLIAMS: No, no, I just tell him.

GUILFOYLE: My pal Bush.

WILLIAMS: OK. I'll leave it alone.

(LAUGHTER)

PERINO: I have one last thing. I want to bring up, Eric. So Mark Halperin of Bloomberg, he really went off out of a limb. And he said -- declare that Hillary Clinton is most likely to be the next U.S. president. I actually think that today, if you're looking at the race, you don't have a republican nominee yet, that's probably not that far.

BOLLING: You know what, next year, it's clearly next -- the next nominee on the left. Unless, she gets arrested, unless, the FBI has said.

BOLLING: She's going to be the nominee and she's likely to be the president. Who is the one that's going to beat her? Boy, I don't know.

GUILFOYLE: But you know, you're saying like, she -- you're saying she's like too big to fail, except if she gets like carted away.

BOLLING: Look at what her history. She's lied to us, she's falsified the truth. Four people have died under her watch. She's faked e-mails, she's lied about it. And yet, she's slamming it on the left. I mean, there -- she's going to get elected unless she gets arrested.

(CROSSTALK)

GUTFELD: Yea, but what Halperin said is she'll be the next president.

PERINO: Right.

GUTFELD: And so it's not just that not being the nominee.

BOLLING: I agree with that.

GUTFELD: She will be the next president -- you do? You believe that?

BOLLING: I agree. That's where I was going.

PERINO: And so I'm saying it's not a hard decision and it's not a hard claim to make at this point.

GUTFELD: But I mean the thing is she has an amazing running mate in the media.

PERINO: Yup.

GUTFELD: Because it was a media that immediately dismissed.

GUILFOYLE: So true.

GUTFELD: Everything that you just said about Benghazi and the cover-up, and everybody laughs at the idea of the cover-up. But it is true. she did lie to save her skin. She got -- I mean, she gets vitamin -- she gets this media vitamin every day. It's exactly what they did for Obama, and Halperin just said what everybody else was thinking.

WILLIAMS: You know what? I commit from the other perspective.

GUTFELD: Yeah.

WILLIAMS: Obviously, that's why I'm sitting here but, don't you think that if we had a better republican candidate, that people.

GUTFELD: It was right.

WILLIAMS: Like Eric Bolling wouldn't be like, "Oh my, gosh. It is gonna."

(CROSSTALK)

BOLLING: Look, I think there are great republican candidates. If this deck is so stacked up, though.

GUILFOYLE: Me too.

BOLLING: This deck is so stacked. You -- think about what you have to do. You have to probably get 10 percent of the African-American vote to win, 35 percent.

PERINO: Forty.

BOLLING: Forty percent of the Hispanic votes win.

WILLIAMS: Yeah.

PERINO: I mean it can't be done.

(CROSSTALK)

BOLLING: Those are huge tall hurdles for republicans.

WILLIAMS: How about New York, California, Illinois.

PERINO: But you know what? Breaking news.

GUILFOYLE: Yeah.

PERINO: Nobody knows what's going to happen.

GUTFELD: That is true.

PERINO: Right.

GUILFOYLE: I thought.

(CROSSTALK)

PERINO: All right. We're gonna move on, earlier.

(LAUGHTER)

PERINO: I was like, oh, what had happened? I'm the only one who was told the breaking news.

GUILFOYLE: Right.

PERINO: All right. Earlier, the president told a group of police chiefs that we have to tighten gun laws in America to stop the rise of violent crime. His FBI director, however, blames a scrutiny of police for the uptick. That's next.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BOLLING: A short while ago, President Obama once again pushed for gun control this time, before an audience full of police chiefs from across the nation.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

PRESIDENT BARACK OBAMA: Fewer gun safety laws don't mean more freedom, they mean more danger. Certainly more danger to police, more fallen officers, more grieving families.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BOLLING: He says he's going to keep calling on Congress to pass more gun laws. Meanwhile, the debate has emerged between the FBI and the White House on the root cause of violent crime and the role of cops. Here's James Comey.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

JAMES COMEY, FBI DIRECTOR: Far more people are being killed in some of America's cities than in many years. And let's be clear, far more people of color are being killed in American cities this year. And it's not the cops doing the killing.

In today's YouTube world, our officers reluctant to get out of their cars and do the work that control violent crime. Our officers answering 911 calls, but avoiding the informal contact that keeps bad guys with guns from standing around, I do have a strong sense that some part of what's going on is likely a chill wind that is blown through law enforcement over the last year.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BOLLING: And now the White House.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

JOSH EARNEST, WHITE HOUSE PRESS SECRETARY: The evidence that we've seen so far doesn't support the contention that law enforcement officials are somehow shirking their responsibility. In fact, you hear law enforcement leaders across the country, indicating that that's not what's taken place.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BOLLING: All right Juan, I'm going to start with you. I think James Comey nailed it right there. People of color are being killed, but not necessarily by law enforcements. That -- the real issue is.

WILLIAMS: Wait, wait, wait, you said that's the real issue. These are real issue in terms of black-on-black, especially young black men.

BOLLING: Sure.

WILLIAMS: Involved in all the drive-bys and gun -- drug trade and all of that. I think that's just terrific and a huge issue, and I would be the first to stand here with you and say, I don't understand why the NAACP and all the civil rights people and black lives matter aren't speaking to that critical issue. But there is an issue about.

BOLLING: More gun control will help fix that issue.

WILLIAMS: I do think so, but I know you don't.

(CROSSTALK)

BOLLING: But let me just -- let finish the point.

BOLLING: The shooters are getting their guns illegally. Is that what you are.

WILLIAMS: No, they get some -- they go down to Virginia, New York and they go out and buy them and then you say -- then Eric -- I come on the show and Eric says to me, but Juan, New York has tough gun laws. And I say, but Eric, they're getting the guns, the bad guys go down and get them illegally out of places that have lax gun laws.

BOLLING: That's where they're getting them?

WILLIAMS: Yes.

BOLLING: They're getting them.

GUILFOYLE: Oh my, God.

BOLLING: At gun shows.

GUILFOYLE: This is a new theory.

BOLLING: Gang bangers in Chicago are going to Virginia.

WILLIAMS: No, no. They have -- I'm talking about Wisconsin.

BOLLING: All right.

WILLIAMS: Indiana, Iowa, neighboring states where people can get guns easily.

BOLLING: All right. There's enough time to continue this. Greg, you want to jump in?

GUTFELD: Yeah.

BOLLING: The White House pushing back on the FBI.

GUTFELD: Well, there's an overwhelming problem, we know with gang violence. We know that shooting on armed suspect is where we also know that activists lump in a lot of these incidents and give a blanket statement. It's all of them were unjustified that they were all victims. Meanwhile, we seen there's a dramatic rise in crime. Comey said two things. He's mentioned it to the Ferguson effect, but he said something that people, people kind of ignored. He linked it to a release of violent felons. Which puts to rest this myth that overcrowding in prisons are filled with these non-violent people, that once we release them, they're just going to go back to picking daisies and selling candy on the corner. The dramatic decline in violent crime over the last two decades has been linked, correlated anyway to incarceration.

GUILFOYLE: Yeah.

GUTFELD: And now we see politicians that are thinking about releasing people out of the -- I guess the under the assumption of tolerance and political correctness. Let's release more felons and what you're going to see is you gonna see violent crime go up.

BOLLING: K.G.?

GUILFOYLE: Yeah, I mean he's on to something. He's speaking the truth that the White House had to try -- not you, of the White House -- no, yes, by association. The White House has to try (inaudible) it's like stamp on it, oh no, no, no, to distance themselves because it's not in keeping with their very ardent mission, pursuing gun control, despite the persuasive evidence to the contrary. They don't understand that in fact, increased gun ownership and yes, incarceration, reducing violent crime, that's what it's directly attributed to. You have a different opinion, but I mean we've got the facts.

(CROSSTALK)

WILLIAMS: You always do.

GUILFOYLE: Yeah.

WILLIAMS: That's why I appreciate your point of view, but I will say this.

GUILFOYLE: Oh, thank you.

WILLIAMS: I just want to speak to the Comey thing, which is, I find it kind of puzzling because I do think there's a real issue about police using excessive force, especially with poor black people, people who they're afraid of. They think these people are just dysfunctional. They may have a gun. We don't know what's going on.

GUTFELD: Right now, when you mean the police, do you mean white cops, black cops, gay cops, bad cops?

WILLIAMS: I don't say anybody who is a police.

GUTFELD: OK.

WILLIAMS: Who has the authority of the state, right? But I think that you can't say in good conscience, "Oh, cops would be doing a better job," this is Comey speaking, "If we didn't have these nuisance of people holding them to the law and saying don't abuse people, or don't make a video of your camera with them." I think that's weak.

GUILFOYLE: No, no, no, he didn't say that.

(CROSSTALK)

BOLLING: I want to bring Dana in here. Dana, tell us about what's going on between the White House and the FBI director?

PERINO: Well, I actually believe that everybody actually wants the same thing here. I think that people want safe communities, they want the police to be able to do their job and they want everyone to be able to get along better. I actually believe that we all believe that. We have -- maybe we have different ways of getting there. I think that the FBI is hearing, as this is what Comey said is that, what he -- he has a strong sense that, this is having an effect and uptick on the violence against cops. That means that he is been hearing this from people that are probably his direct reports or people that report to him through the state agencies. So there's that.

From the White House's perspective, I think that they, they continue to do the same exact thing and get no accomplishment. So I think that different tactic is needed. If I were those guys, I would try to bring in some -- find 10 reasonable people that you can find on the Hill and say, here's the a list of the proposals that we want to put forward and here's how many people we think could be saved if we were to pass these laws. Then let actually people think of that through, do the cost-benefit analysis. Actually have a real debate about it, rather than just saying, "We're just going to tell Congress to keep passing laws, that Congress is not passing. So nobody is actually getting anything done.

BOLLING: All right, last month was the deadliest September in Chicago since 2002, 16 murders on the books. Earlier, the president addressed the spiking crime in his hometown, despite the fact that that city has some of the strictest gun laws in the country.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

OBAMA: They say, well look, Chicago had a spike in homicides this year. They've got gun safety laws. So this must be proof that tougher gun safety laws don't help. Maybe make things worse.

The problem with that argument, as the Chicago Police Department will tell you, is that 60 percent of guns recovered in crimes come from out of state. You just got to hop across the border.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BOLLING: Now let me take the other side of this argument, its levels. The left wants your guns, they want to level up. Level one is increased background checks. Level two, national registry. Level three, limit the number of guns. And finally, level four, confiscate certain types of guns and certain types of ammunition. Juan, meanwhile, no one is leveling up the bad guys.

WILLIAMS: You know, I just think you're playing to the sort of paranoid fantasy leads people to run to the gun store, get more ammunition and get more guns. There are real steps that I think reasonable people can take. And one of them that I'm -- that I'm always struck by, is the fingerprint on the trigger. So that you, if you get a gun, legally, I hope, can use it and it's only yours and the bad guys can't get it and take it.

BOLLING: But the bad guys don't have that same.

WILLIAMS: No, no because we have so many guns now. So I'm saying we have to take steps. We can't use it as an excuse to do nothing. I am just -- the amount of murder is just.

(CROSSTALK)

GUTFELD: There's been a 49 percent drop in gun homicides since 1993.

WILLIAMS: It's true. That's true, but still.

GUTFELD: It is not -- I know, but still.

WILLIAMS: Right.

GUTFELD: It's -- if the problem is somehow getting better. I have to commend President Obama for saying one thing that goes against black live - - the black lives matters. He thinks that minority communities need more cops and he's right.

WILLIAMS: I just.

GUILFOYLE: He is right.

BOLLING: More guns still.

GUILFOYLE: And cops with guns. Cops patrolling the neighborhoods to make sure that there are significant presence that will serve as a deterrent to the criminal recidivists that are plaguing communities, that's the deal.

BOLLING: And not.

GUILFOYLE: And if you look at the Gallup poll.

BOLLING: More cops, not more gun control.

GUILFOYLE: No, what I'm saying is, look. There are gun control limits and regulations that are in place that are being observed. Juan thinks that every, you know, guy that runs with the blood to the creeps is just, you know, going and getting them in Wisconsin or getting them from, you know, gun -- loose gun fairs. That is not the case.

WILLIAMS: Where do you think they come from?

GUILFOYLE: That is not the case.

WILLIAMS: Where do you.

GUILFOYLE: They're getting them on the street.

BOLLING: There are street guns.

GUILFOYLE: The street guns.

BOLLING: They're not -- they're illegal.

(CROSSTALK)

GUILFOYLE: Well, guess what?

(CROSSTALK)

WILLIAMS: Someone buys them and then they traffic them to the bad guys.

GUILFOYLE: And guess what? That's why you need stop, question and frisk. It could be at, to go out. What you are doing on the corner? What's going on? People are selling guns. Selling drugs, committing acts of violence on the streets.

WILLIAMS: Yeah.

GUILFOYLE: You need cops to go, to investigate. Hey, what do you want to?

WILLIAMS: You know what that leads to, Kimberly?

GUILFOYLE: You know what it is?

(CROSSTALK)

GUILFOYLE: It leads to.

WILLIAMS: Lack of trust.

GUILFOYLE: It leads to a lower.

WILLIAMS: In the pact (ph) that you say, "We need more money."

(CROSSTALK)

GUTFELD: Minority.

GUILFOYLE: It leads to a reduction in crimes.

GUTFELD: Minority communities didn't mind stop and frisk because it got the bad guys' guns out of their community.

GUILFOYLE: Correct.

WILLIAMS: I don't think that's true, Greg.

GUILFOYLE: Correct. Yes, it is.

(CROSSTALK)

WILLIAMS: We were, in fact became more antagonistic towards cops.

(CROSSTALK)

GUTFELD: I think the women, the families, the elderly were grateful that there were police there to get the guns.

BOLLING: We need to go.

GUILFOYLE: And they want them back.

BOLLING: On that note. Ahead, Ben Carson made it clear he is strictly pro- life and some of the hosts of The View think that that stance is despicable and pathetic. Their abortion tirade coming up, next.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

GUILFOYLE: A new video has been released by the Center for Medical Progress and its investigation into Planned Parenthood. In this 11th undercover tape, a doctor is seen laughing while she was striving to deliver an aborted baby with an intact skull for brain harvesting.

The abortion debate is one of the key issues at the forefront of the presidential race. Republican candidate Ben Carson was just asked for his position. Here was his answer.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

CHUCK TODD, NBC'S "MEET THE PRESS": Do you want to see Roe v. Wade overturned?

DR. BEN CARSON, R-PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: Ultimately, I would love to see it overturned. I'm a reasonable person, and if people can come up with a reasonable explanation of why they would like to kill a baby, I'll listen.

TODD: Rape and incest?

CARSON: Rape and incest, I would not be in favor of killing a baby because the baby came about in that way.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GUILFOYLE: That set off the ladies at "The View."

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Despicable.

WHOOPI GOLDBERG, CO-HOST, ABC'S "THE VIEW": Well...

JOY BEHAR, CO-HOST, ABC'S "THE VIEW": What can you say to that, you know?

GOLDBERG: It's, you know, sir, no disrespect, truly no disrespect. But it's not your call. You don't decide -- you don't decide. You don't decide for anybody's family here, what they are going through and what they need.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GUILFOYLE: OK. So Dana, you were just shaking your head here.

PERINO: Well, first of all, I'm shaking my head because I'm dismayed because of learning about this video and the contents of it and, unlike Eric who has the -- he has the temerity to be able to watch these videos, I actually haven't. And I've read about them, because it actually -- it's so upsetting to me.

What bothers me a little bit about the positioning of this is that abortion is not the forefront of everybody's mind in terms of going into this election. It is No. 1 across the board, it is the economy in every single poll.

What the Republicans end up doing is talking about their right-to-life views. Those are acceptable views in more than half of this country. But you fall into a trap where you become the person who is the only one that is out there talking about those views, and then it becomes the only thing that the left wants to talk about.

I am proud of Ben Carson for sticking up for what he believes in and for saying it. However, is he saying it as a presidential candidate that he wants do overturn Roe v. Wade? I don't think that he is. If he is, that would be news, and that would be something that a lot of the candidates would want to talk about.

I think what he is saying is that he believes in a culture of life, and he's not necessarily trying to overturn a law. If he is trying to overturn a law, that would be something different.

But here we go. We have a viewpoint from "The View," saying it was despicable to actually believe that life begins at conception. I don't think that's despicable. And I think there is room to respect people like me who believe that that is actually the case.

GUILFOYLE: Right. And this is every much his right to be able to say what his personal viewpoints are. Why is everyone so afraid that these are the personal viewpoints of Dr. Ben Carson. A man who works just about every day of his life to save the lives of children. To me it's completely consistent.

GUTFELD: Yes, but you're talking about abortion. This is -- this, in my mind, is the most important question since slavery. And for some, it's worse than slavery, because there are human beings that aren't even born. That could have the chance of escaping their own destinies.

But this is not what the debate is actually about. This whole thing was about intact fetal heads being used as products. Used to be that adults existed to help preserve the next generation. Now adults use the next generation as somehow supplements for their own health, whether you're in dire need for an organ, still, you are using a generation as a supplement. As opposed to preserving that generation and making sure it lives a life.

It's amazing how lucky, or it's amazing how the winners at the finish line of life get to dictate who gets to be at the starting line.

GUILFOYLE: Wow.

GUTFELD: But the thing is, that's not what this is about. It's about using fetal heads as products. This is not about -- so when you're talking about falling into a trap. What happened was, who was interviewing Carson?

BOLLING: Chuck Todd.

GUTFELD: Chuck Todd, you know, has taken this idea and pushed it into that realm.

PERINO: Yes.

GUTFELD: So if you're revulsed by what Planned Parenthood is doing or whoever was in that video about the fetal heads, if you're revulsed by that, clearly you want to ban abortion. But that's not the case.

I realize abortion is never going away. It's not going away. Roe v. Wade is here to stay. It is. There's nothing you're going to do about it. But what you can do is express moral outrage about a changing morality, that we've come to accept certain repulsive things.

GUILFOYLE: Absolutely. If you were listening to something, you don't even think it could be real. It comes -- some, like, out of, like, a Frankenstein movie, video.

And Greg rightly points out, there's moral outrage. But it's also legal. What she's saying was she tried to remove the intact fetuses, the intact skulls, why? Not -- not for any medical purposes, because they were more valuable to sell to the labs that wanted to use them for medical research. That's why they were doing it. It's a profit motive.

And that, by definition, is what's against the law.

PERINO: Right.

BOLLING: So you can have a moral, and not have a moral problem with abortion or what they're doing. But you have to have a legal problem with what they're doing.

GUILFOYLE: Well, legal and ethical. I mean, you should examine the legality and the ethics of it, Juan.

WILLIAMS: Well, I think you -- I think we have a set of laws put in place that allow for the use of fetal tissue research, put in place now, decades ago, and you can't do it for profit, if they did it for profit. Let me finish, if they did it for profit...

BOLLING: But intact fetuses are more valuable, are more profitable than parts.

WILLIAMS: Let me just say, no, no, if they did it for profit, let's get a charge. Let's indict somebody. But there is not...

BOLLING: That is what the charge is.

WILLIAMS: They did not do that. And so they keep saying...

GUILFOYLE: How do you know?

WILLIAMS: This is what they have said.

GUILFOYLE: You don't know. Do an investigation.

WILLIAMS: Let me just say, this to me is an opportunity for people who have one set of beliefs to talk to each other and say, "Oh, how horrible." And you know what? It does nothing but alienate other people and open the door, by the way, to Hillary Clinton saying there's a war on women and this is about...

GUTFELD: It's a trap.

WILLIAMS: This is what you're talking about. And I'm just saying, this is the 11th video. How many videos -- this is just not going anywhere for the Republicans.

PERINO: I think the outrage should be that the videos actually -- it's not that they would actually had the gall to go out and find -- do an investigative report and find them. It's actually -- the galling thing is that no one in the media seems to care.

GUTFELD: I mean, imagine -- imagine if it were new videos showing modern slavery in certain nations.

PERINO: Or torture.

GUTFELD: Or torture.

PERINO: Torture, right?

GUTFELD: Yes. More people were upset about the Abu Ghraib -- yes.

PERINO: Abu Ghraib.

BOLLING: But the practice is being stopped. So the videos do matter, and the more we talk about it, it does matter.

WILLIAMS: The practice of...

BOLLING: Planned Parenthood said there's...

GUILFOYLE: Right. And we frowned -- and we frowned on China with their one baby rule. But what are we doing here? That's what we have to take a look at ourselves.

WILLIAMS: Listen, these are women who are having abortions, who decide they want something good to come of it.

BOLLING: Juan, the videos -- are we saying...

(CROSSTALK)

WILLIAMS: I think it's a fact.

GUILFOYLE: We're out of time. We're out of time. Juan, I'm so sorry you're wrong, but thank you for being here.

WILLIAMS: Thank you. Well, you know, wrong set anyway (ph).

GUILFOYLE: Today is a big day.

GUTFELD: Yay!

GUILFOYLE: Do you know why? Greg's new book is out. So you want to know how to be right? Stay right here.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

GUTFELD: For the past four years on "The Five," I've been doing monologues. It's what I was hired to do, to make you think and laugh and sometimes aroused, Juan.

GUILFOYLE: Eww.

GUTFELD: My goal when writing these one-minute thought puddles is to keep it fun and persuasive, with humor trumping anger. It's not about reciting stuff you've already heard but offering a perspective in a way that makes you nod your head and go, "I get it."

But it's also meant to help you in your quest to argue more effectively, convincing others of a fact-based perspective, free of emotion, cliche and most of all, shrill anger. It's not about being correct, but being persuasively correct, Kimberly.

Especially in an age where you're the target. The media, academia, the government, they all pretty much hate you and me, which is why I wrote this book.

The book stems from two ideas: How can I explain how I explain things? And how can I help you explain things, too? It's that simple.

My theory: The left is great at explaining bad ideas. The right is bad at explaining great ideas.

So my book is designed, hopefully, to fix that, to get better at explaining good ideas, in part by learning from the left's own tricks and ejecting humor into crevices of our own arguments, whether it's through the power of metaphor, mockery or absurdity.

The goal here is not to shout but to win and do so in a charming and thoroughly enjoyable manner. Because there's no point in thinking you won if afterward everyone hates you.

So I urge you to pick up the book. It's short and sweet, much like me.

GUILFOYLE: I like the arousing part.

GUTFELD: Of course you would, Kimberly.

BOLLING: Thought puddles.

GUILFOYLE: Well, he said -- he said thoughts to arouse, Juan.

BOLLING: How about thought ponds, thought seas, oceans of thought?

GUTFELD: Because they're small. I like a small thought puddle. So you don't get too wet. You just get in and get out of it.

I shouldn't have used the word puddle.

GUTFELD: Are thought puddles controlled water, too? This is getting better by the moment.

GUTFELD: On the back of the book I wrote, "This book was my idea, Dana Perino." Explain how this was your idea?

PERINO: Well, I have -- you're right. We're in our fifth year as a show. And one of the things that you have constantly been telling the audience is that you can't just be -- you can't just have fake outrage. You actually have to be persuasively correct in order to win an argument.

And -- but I always felt like you weren't telling people, actually, how to do that. Because someone might watch the show. They might really love a monologue and say, "Oh, my gosh. I wish I could think that way or write that way." And so I wanted you to write a book that would explain to people how they could actually do it. It's not an impossible task.

GUTFELD: I just didn't want to tell people, because I didn't want to lose my job.

GUILFOYLE: He wants it for himself.

GUTFELD: I don't want people to do what I do.

GUILFOYLE: So now this is an act, like a charitable act. You've become magnanimous.

GUTFELD: This is like a rhetorical soup kitchen.

WILLIAMS: Yes, but you know, this is terrible. This is bad news for Democrats.

GUTFELD: Yes.

WILLIAMS: Because if Republicans buy this book, and figure out how to stop being so angry and nasty, and actually start...

GUILFOYLE: That's so mean.

WILLIAMS: ... like laughing at liberals and mocking them and like saying you know you guys are...

GUTFELD: He's got a point, though.

WILLIAMS: ... that could be dangerous.

GUTFELD: The liberals are every bit as angry. You know that, Juan.

WILLIAMS: No, no, no.

BOLLING: Hillary's not angry.

WILLIAMS: Well, I think Hillary has been beaten up a lot. That's true, too.

But I think in general what comes off is, Republicans are angry old men. And you've got to get away from that.

GUTFELD: Who creates that cliche, though?

WILLIAMS: I don't know if it's a cliche. That's the problem.

GUTFELD: Well, there you go.

BOLLING: Well...

GUILFOYLE: He didn't like that.

BOLLING: The Democrats running for president are substantially older than the Republicans running for president.

WILLIAMS: That is true.

GUTFELD: And they're -- they're all white.

BOLLING: Less diverse. Yes.

PERINO: If there -- if you have a chance, Greg and I did a Q&A. It's online at FOXNews.com. And if you're a parent and you want to figure out how could I instill some skills and talents like that in my child, there's a good answer in the Q&A about that. And then there's also a special podcast that's coming.

GUTFELD: Yes, exactly.

PERINO: Everything little that we do.

GUTFELD: It's a good book for children and also for pets. The pets don't have to read. They could just stare at it.

BOLLING: My son is 17. Could he learn from it?

GUTFELD: Yes. And the great thing is, there's no -- the cover is part of the book, so you can't hide the fact you're reading this. So you know when you're on the train, and you pretend you're not reading this.

PERINO: And like, if you're at a university or if you're in an office where you're the only conservative, and you feel like there's no way for you to ever win an argument, so basically, what you end up doing is you just shut up and you go back to your desk and you stew about it. Or you go online and tweet us. This actually shows you how you can argue with your professors or your colleagues in a very persuasive way.

GUTFELD: But it won't help you argue with your spouse.

GUILFOYLE: Or with the control room.

PERINO: They're saying, like, "Go, go."

GUTFELD: An Ivy League school didn't want Jesse Watters to bring "Watters World" to their campus. We're going to tell you why, next.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

WILLIAMS: Our good friend Jesse Watters appears on this show from time to time. But his regular gig is on "O'Reilly," where he does a segment called "Watters World."

GUILFOYLE: He's got the collar.

WILLIAMS: Now, Jesse often makes trips to colleges, and this time he went to Cornell to check out the politics on campus there.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Very diverse campus. A bunch of different people from a bunch of different backgrounds.

WATTERS: It's not that diverse, because according to this report, 96 percent of the donations from faculty here went to Democrats.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: What's wrong with that?

WATTERS: Oh!

Do you ever feel that professors are pushing a political agenda here?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I've got friends who are liberal arts majors. They write a paper and they bring up a conservative viewpoint, they won't get a good grade.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: If I want an "A," I tailor my papers to how the professor leans.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

WATTERS: Jesse was later asked to stop rolling his cameras by the media relations team at the university. They didn't tell him why.

Now Greg -- I know you have...

GUILFOYLE: Because he was creeping them out.

WATTERS: What? What's that?

GUILFOYLE: Because he was creeping them out. He has those gloves on.

GUTFELD: He wasn't wearing any pants, Juan.

WILLIAMS: You know I saw the gloves, but he was cold. It's getting cold.

GUILFOYLE: Inside?

WILLIAMS: Inside? He was outside.

BOLLING: No, he's in right there. Look at that video.

GUILFOYLE: No, he's inside. He's wearing the gloves.

WILLIAMS: Oh, he went inside. OK.

GUILFOYLE: Creepy, like a burglar.

WILLIAMS: He was outside -- oh, my gosh. Anyway, so Gregory, I know you don't like liberal academics.

GUTFELD: Yes.

WILLIAMS: I thought this was right up your alley.

GUTFELD: Well, no, the left feels it's so important to have safe spaces for everyone on campus. Unless you're a conservative. And obviously he's from "The O'Reilly Factor," that's a problem. And they should call it Corn-hell, not Cornell.

WILLIAMS: But you know, he's right. It was $600,000 over four years donated by Cornell faculty. Ninety-six percent went to Democrats, Dana.

PERINO: I'm surprised it's not automatically taken out of their paychecks. I mean, this is -- this is a contribution, a mandatory contribution. It's like being in the union. You know that you will be able to -- you won't ever be shunned on a campus if you give money to a Democrat.

WILLIAMS: Well, I think...

PERINO: You do have to admire them. I mean, that's a 96 participation rate in the Democratic process.

WILLIAMS: So Eric, one of the professors said, "But if we had political diversity, it would mean sacrificing the quality of the faculty. Do you buy it?

Here are the numbers: 30-34 ACT range, 25 to 75 percentile. High -- it takes a lot to get into that school. Sixty-four thousand dollars a year a parent has to pay for their kid to get educated by a liberal academia group that spends 96 percent of their money on Democrats.

GUILFOYLE: Indoctrination.

BOLLING: Look, they have the right to throw Jesse off the campus, but in the free speech argument, the First Amendment argument, they should have just let him do his thing and just watch him.

WILLIAMS: Here's what -- here's what, we can solve this whole issue. Young people of Cornell, go out and buy Greg's book.

PERINO: Very nice.

GUTFELD: Juan!

WILLIAMS: "One More Thing" up next.

GUILFOYLE: Word.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

PERINO: Best commercial break ever. And we can't tell you a thing about it. It's time for "One More Thing" -- Juan.

WILLIAMS: OK. So Mary Katherine Ham, my debating partner on "O'Reilly," went on Greta Van Susteren last night. As you know, her husband, Jake Brewer, died tragically about a month ago. She's pregnant, eight months pregnant. Here she is on Greta, last night.

GUILFOYLE: She was amazing.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

MARY KATHERINE HAM, FOX NEWS CONTRIBUTOR: It's an impossibly, irreparably sad thing that happened to us. But I am not an impossibly, irreparably sad person. And my children will not be, and our family will not be. Because he would want us to live bravely. And he would want us to have fun.

And I will probably always think that the world is a little bit less fun and beautiful because he's not here. But he would say it's my job to get off my butt and make it fun and beautiful.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

WILLIAMS: So last weekend she ran the Marine Corps 10k. I say she ran two miles. She walked the rest with her family and friends. And she said because it's going forward, it's public service, and it was a personal challenge. We love you, Mary Katherine.

PERINO: It was -- that was a remarkable interview, hard to even watch.

GUILFOYLE: Amazing. Yes. With Greta. God bless her (ph).

BOLLING: and make sure you find that interview somewhere. It's posted a lot of places. My wife and I in tears watching that. She is so strong.

GUILFOYLE: She's so inspirational. That's the thing. She's going to help so many people with her strength.

GUILFOYLE: Good job. Well, I'm super excited, because my friend Lewis Howes has a fantastic book out today, called "The School of Greatness." He was really helpful to me when I was putting my book out. And he's just an inspirational person. He's -- hugely successful.

And he uses eight key principles in helping people to achieve their own personal greatness. He built a million-dollar online business before he was 30. And now he is a business coach, an angel investor and speaker and gets about close to one million downloads per month on his podcast. This book is great. It will help you change your life. I suggest you get it today. "Fox & Friends" today.

GUTFELD: Excuse me, you go and you order this book. You only plug one book a day. OK? That's enough. That's enough. I'm on "O'Reilly" tonight. I do Laura Ingraham tomorrow, her show, her radio show, and Mike Gallagher's radio show tomorrow.

GUILFOYLE: And I'm on "O'Reilly" tonight. Just watch me knock Greg.

GUTFELD: All right.

PERINO: I'm cleaning closets tonight. Also, dogs are going to be allowed in New York restaurants. It's the best news ever.

GUTFELD: Boo!

PERINO: Set your DVRs so you never miss an episode of "The Five." That's it for us. "Special Report" is next.

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