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Why I Hate the #HomeSafeSelfie Campaign

Last night I did my usual end-of-day Twitter check and the (generally innocuous) Northern Line account had tweeted something that made my inner feminist seethe. It was a link to a ‘safety campaign’ from TFL instructing us silly, irresponsible women on how to not go and get ourselves raped. The polite, more English way of saying that is, of course: ‘don’t get into an unlicensed cab, you could be sexually assaulted’.

By now, we know this drill; we’ve seen these campaigns before (previous posters run by the Metropolitan Police showed a wide-eyed, crying women begging us to not take an unlicensed cab; the rape implication hidden in plain sight on the victim’s face). So, what should we make of this? Should we be grateful that the horror of rape is ever-present in the minds of authorities and they are keen to spend money to keep women safe? And, as journalist Ellie Mae O’Hagan asked, “Do I really have to Instagram a picture of myself arriving home without getting raped as though it’s an achievement?”

No: fuck that. This is the same old victim-blaming game and I am so damn fed up with it. TFL, please don’t congratulate yourselves on this campaign; it is an epic failure. Have you already forgotten the victims of John Worboys? Over a hundred women raped by a Black Cab driver. And you suggest that licensed and regulated = safe? You insult all his victims when you pretend a licence is any guarantee of safety.

This was never about keeping women safe, was it TFL? Despite the myriad ways in which women are told that it’s their fault if they get raped, it’s ensuring that if women don’t ‘heed the warnings’ we can all safely point the finger and say “told you so”. How many people will make the leap from “don’t get into an unbooked cab” to “what were you wearing?” “were you drunk?” “did you go home with him?” “did you buy your own drinks?” or any other of the many ‘reasons’ why you got raped when you did? Yes, they’ll examine all the “reasons, except perhaps the only one that actually means something. Rape is the rapist’s fault. It’s a simple concept really, but after centuries of misogyny in a culture consumed with its own sense of patriarchal entitlement, somehow it still isn’t – it’s women’s fault; mine and yours and all of ours.

The threat of rape has been dangled over my head all my life. I’m 37 years old and I don’t recall a single public campaign that put the onus and responsibility of rape where it belongs – on the man. This campaign is nothing special; despite its attempt to glamourise women’s safety with the odious and extremely misguided #homesafeselfie angle. Get home safe and celebrate that achievement (because that’s what it is, right?) by tweeting a picture of yourself looking drunk but happy – happy to be tucked up in bed, unviolated for yet one more day. Well done you!

I’ve often been told that, in order to think your way out of a problem, you need to see it outside of yourself. So, let’s step away for a sec. From the outside, it seems fairly straightforward not to get raped. We “just” have to abide by an ever-increasing set of rules that govern: our behaviour, our words, our clothing, the time of day that we travel, the type of work we do, the friends we have, the men we date, the men we speak to in bars and clubs, the men we have relationships with and of course, the men we allow to drive us home after a night out. Every aspect of our lives dictated to by a society that knows the problem (don’t believe for a moment this is down to ignorance – this is wilful and hateful and completely intentional) but refuses to name it. The problem is, has always been, and will remain, male violence.

Understand this one, salient, overriding fact and maybe we can start to do something about it. This is more than the elephant in the room, this is what rape culture looks like and feels like. The silent but oppressive scarlet letter just waiting to be branded onto us, if through our trangressions and our own pathetic and weak neglect of our personal safety, we become the victims our society has long set us up to turn into.

The TFL campaign is just another expression of rape culture. A culture that has normalised misogyny to the point that we ask women who are abused why they stay with their abusive partners, but we never tell men it’s not ok to hit. It is a culture that has created a thousand little loopholes through which a rapist can walk out of court smiling smugly knowing he raped a woman and got away with it. Because jurors need to hear how the woman often goes out drinking and had an abortion at 18, but will not be told that the man has a history of violence, maybe even rape, because then he may not get a fair trial.

I was seething when I saw the ill-conceived and sexist TFL campaign; I’m still seething. Every leaflet, every booklet, every article I ever read told me the one thing I should say to a woman who’s been attacked – “it’s not your fault”. But, everywhere else, in every nook and cranny of our violently misogynistic society, the collective finger gets pointed at the victim and she remembers (because she’s always been taught it) that maybe it is her fault. If only she hadn’t…….then maybe it wouldn’t have happened?!

These campaigns should tell men to not rape, to not abuse, to not harass. That they continue to blame women is the running joke that’s been played on all of us for far too long. A woman’s body is not a punchbag; a woman’s safety is not a punchline. I’m not fucking laughing. Are you?

Just wanted to say that Lambeth council did run a sexual violence campaign aimed at men a couple of years ago – photos here as the official website link now doesn’t work. So it’s hard to know how effective it was.

4 years ago I was sexually assaulted in an unbooked minicab. And I have to say, I couldn’t disagree more.

Whilst I too think that these men need to be stopped, the simple truth of the matter is that they aren’t going to change their behaviour. So why is it so wrong to warn women about them? If I had known this information 4 years ago, I would never have had to go through what I did. Looking at these posters, I don’t feel like I’m being blamed for my actions.

It makes me feel really sad that people like you can’t see how important it is to make women aware of this. I am open about my experience because I don’t want to see this happen to any other girl, and these posters may just help.

Part of me agrees with Jenny, if this ad stops one assault then this campaign works right?
But there is a horrible horrible truth, this is not the first campaign one was ran which
included a video in
2009. If someone wants to attack a woman they don’t need
an unlicensed cab to do
it. If you look on line
there are so many
stories about women
like Jenny. They say
these campaigns work
but they don’t, the
evidence is in front of
us all. The only way to stop sexually attacks is
talk to and influence
men when they are
young, start at the
roots, the other way is to increase fund to the police so they creat teams who will catch these men before hand. Sorry to hear about you experience Jenny, I hope the bastard got what deserved.

I’m really sorry you’re a victim of a sexual assault Jenna. I have also been a victim of a sexual assault and despise this campaign and others like it. I find the video and some of the imagery used in this one triggering. They are blaming all victims in my opinion and saying WE need to take action to avoid sexual assault NOT telling men not to assault us. Licensed taxi drivers assault women too. We are assaulted in the street and in clubs. We can’t do anything to not put ourselves at risk so telling us we can is wrong and won’t work. If the message is illegal minicabs are a risk then why not warn men too? Aren’t men at risk of being robbed or assaulted if they take them too? They chose to single out women when the message should be about illegal minicabs and that’s saying that it’s only women who should live in fear of and prevent assaults on us. I find them horrible and sickening and all campaigns like this just remind me every time I see them that society blames me for what happened to me.

I was sexually assaulted by my boyfriend and everyone apart my senior tutor made me feel like it was my fault. I think there is a real emphasis on it being the women’s fault, the thought that she could have prevented it. But that’s messed up.
I am doing a project which is about sexism and misogyny in the media and on social network sites and love seeing pages like this because it equips me with more facts and info about this issue I have such a passion for

I don’t think that TfL are blaming victims. I don’t think this is naive. I don’t think I am blaming victims either, by thinking that these campaigns /aren’t/ blaming victims. I think that it promotes common sense, which is about having your friends know where you are and letting them know that you’ve got home safely. My friends, both female and male, mostly wish each other ‘Get home safe!’ at the end of every night we have out together, or even in, and they do this regardless of gender.

By promoting safety, it is NOT saying ‘It’s your fault if something does happen’. Yes, it would be bloody great to live in a world where this doesn’t happen, but we don’t. The benefits of promoting safety and common sense, and even female solidarity, are really important. I think we should stop reading into things further than we need to: the posters from TfL are not saying ‘Rape happens because you’ve caused it’, but rather saying ‘Look out for yourselves and for your friends because no man is an island’.

Bristol City Council are an excellent example of how anti-rape campaigns should be done. http://www.thisisnotanexcuse.org.uk has a download pack of 4 posters that went up all over Bristol, directly tackling victim blaming approaches. All of them feature women- either drunk, dressed revealingly, acting provocatively or wearing a wedding ring- with the message ‘this is not an excuse to rape me’ written clearly. Refreshing, brilliant campaign.

The level of anger in this piece is suggestive of how victims’ feelings ought to be considered in campaigns such as TFL’s here. But they are not the whole story, and I think the author makes exaggerated claims about the intentions and callousness of the campaign on the basis of her feelings here. In particular, the question “This was never about keeping women safe, was it TFL?” seems completely misplaced. Why on Earth would anyone suppose that TFL are directly out to foster a myth about the victim’s culpability? They might perhaps have a motive to do so if someone was blaming TFL for sexual violence, but I know of no one who does this, and as the author points out, the culpability lies squarely with the perpetrators. So it seems reasonable to me that we ought to give TFL the benefit of the doubt and consider the campaign on its own merits.

Our feelings about the wider nature of society and the prevalence of victim-blaming narratives notwithstanding, it doesn’t seem unreasonable to me to suggest that we might make people aware of risks. As Jenna suggests (and rightly so), we simply cannot assume that everyone who is actually at risk KNOWS that they’re at risk. To make such an assumption would be very dangerous indeed (incidentally, the same applies to the whole gamut of risks, which is why academic clinicians consistently berate governments of all stripes for failing to invest in risk prevention). Risky behaviour is often ignorant behaviour, so if we can better inform people, that strikes me as a good thing. Whether the campaign successfully does that is another question, but as the author is not engaging that question, it’s irrelevant here.

The obvious reply to this point is to say that the very view of sexual violence as a “risk” that women run is itself “ill-conceived and sexist” (to borrow one of the author’s phrases). In an ideal world, where the problem of sexual violence is easily solved (perhaps by just telling men ‘don’t be fuckwits’ – wouldn’t it be nice if it was that easy?), or where governments and society have the patience and political wherewithal to tackle them, this response would be correct. It would be addressing the symptom but leaving the cause unaddressed. But in our non-ideal world, where the economic and social causes of sexual violence are wickedly hard to address and where democratic institutions move infuriatingly slowly, seeking to lower women’s risks in the immediate future seems like the least worst choice. For the alternative would be to leave lots of women at risk while *hoping* that one’s speculative, fallible attempts to solve sexual violence work.

None of this is to say that it isn’t horrific and extremely sad that the unintended consequence of this kind of campaign is to make some women feel responsible for what has happened to them, and if we were debating this academically I think that it would be worth analysing the relative costs of causing existing victims further pain vs. the costs of running an increased risk of sexual violence. But again, in the real world no public body could ever be seen taking their foot of the pedal in trying to reduce the incidence of sexual crime. So I kind of get why TFL have acted here. It may be dumb when viewed from an ideal-world point of view, but given the world we live in it seems like a fairly reasonable response.

PS I realise that unlicensed-cab rape is not the only kind of rape. But I don’t think TFL or anyone else thinks this campaign will solve all rapes – they’re trying to get at one specific risk which it might be fairly easy to minimise. Even if the rest of the class of rapes stay unchanged, if this ONE class could be eradicated (thus lowering the overall incidence of sexual violence), that would be a good thing, right?

I agree with you that this campaign seems misguided but I don’t see that a campaign telling rapists ‘not to rape’ would be effective. I don’t think that any guy who forces a woman down and has sex with her is under any illusion that this is correct, in the same way that a person who breaks into a house and robs it doesn’t think they’re right to do so or a murderer thinks what they are doing is legal and correct. We don’t have adverts telling people not to do these things because the people who do them don’t care that they’re wrong.

I feel like an advert that blames men could be harmful: I know if I was a man and saw adverts telling me not to rape people based on my gender, I would feel angry that the actions of a few evil psychos have tarnished my whole sex. I think the only men who would be affected by such a campaign would be the ones who already knew it was wrong.

This isn’t true of all rape, of course. I thought the campaigns targeting date rape were very necessary and could actually change the perspectives of people who had grown up in some messed up environment that hadn’t taught them that was wrong.

I agree with Jenna’s point – some information is better than no information at all. When taking the poster campaign in isolation, of course it is easy to criticise. But then we are provided with no evidence of what is being done to address the men/violence issue, aswell.

Also, would be interesting to hear authors suggestions for the improvement of this campaign?

I had stepped into an unlicensed cab a couple of years ago – when I was 18 years old, a country-girl in a big city. If it wasn’t for the passer-by that tapped on the window and urged me not to accept a ride, i don’t know what would have happened.

It is important to inform women (and men!) of the potential dangers of travelling in unlicensed taxis, but the way in which this should be done is obviously still open to question.

Lots of people have given a suggestion of how to improve the campaign: MAKE THE CAMPAIGN ONE RAISING AWARENESS OF THE DANGERS OF UNLICENSED MINICABS TO MEN AND WOMEN. Just aim it at PEOPLE. Not images of women on a night out getting attacked which are triggering to many. Not encouraging WOMEN ONLY to take selfies when we get home safe. ARGH!

THAT COMMENT WOULD ONLY BE VALID IF THE CAMPAIGN WAS AIMED AT MEN AS WELL AS WOMEN! Sorry for the caps but this angers me SO SO SO MUCH. It IS victim blaming and specifically blaming WOMEN who are attacked.

Re: CS,
I completely disagree. Targeting a section of society with a broad criticism is obviously going to raise heckles with little pay off. If a you had a poster saying ‘Students, stealing is wrong’, that might be offensive sure. But a more targeted approach ‘downloading music illegally is stealing music, and hurting the very artists we hope to produce more music’, could at least lead to some introspection of the ethics of a commonly socially accepted behaviour
Nobody here is suggesting just throwing out a ‘men, you are rapists, stop it’ kind of thing. but highlighting sets of behaviours that do actually equate to abuse can hardly be a bad thing. I have seen a guy fuck a girl at a party who was completely unconscious and when pulled off her was angry and oblivious. she was his girlfriend, and he was CONVINCED that that was fine. not every rapist is an evil moustache twirling villain from a movie. educating the public on what behaviours are damaging or illegal any why is surely better long term than telling people to avoid them falling victim to them.
As for TFL posters. an emergency stopgap at best. Frankly I do believe it is behaving irresponsibly for not framing the issue properly :taxis are vulnerable places, illegal taxis present a higher risk to everyone at a time when they are extremely vulnerable.

I really enjoyed reading your posts but I have quite a newbie question. After getting caught up in all the design of the site I cannot seem to find the follow button, so how do I follow your wordpress site?

Seeing images of a bubble gum haired women fighting off an attacker doesn’t feel informative, it feels downright creepy – terrifying even. Not to say if this campaign also featured men getting mugged it would also be creepy. These campaigns that are aimed solely at women and telling them get into the wrong cab and you might be sexually attacked only further frightens me. It is hard to live in a world with constant bombardment of images or advice on not leaving your drink alone or even don’t go on a hike alone. While it seems this campaign and many of its types is being informative it is only good in a short term but malignant in the long term. It adds more images to the saturation of violence against women and creates an unhealthy environment that makes women constantly fear for their safety. Is TFL trying to do good here? yes but that doesn’t make this campaign good.

I’m not sure it’s any of TfL’s business to be running this campaign in the first place, so why are they? Because they are implicitly advertising their services as ‘lower-rape-risk-transport’. This is completely unacceptable.

I don’t agree that warning women to avoid dangerous situations reduces their rape risk – we have no idea whether or not it just reinforces the idea that it is the victim who is at fault. I suspect that this absolutely is victim blaming and, worst of all, that the motivation is nothing more than marketing.

This is a great article. I ultimately think that these campaigns are well meaning, but misguided.

I would love to see a campaign from the male perspective- maybe a a group of ‘lads’ ‘bantering’ with a girl on her own at night, trying to demonstrate how that makes her feel. Or a picture of a girl in a short dress, drink in hand, smiling out with the tag line ‘not asking for it’ or something like that. I think lots of guys don’t realise how intimidating their actions can seem, and how it goes towards perpetuating rape culture. Advising women to stay safe, comes from the right place, but does not address the real issues of ‘do not rape’.

Paul: “Even if the rest of the class of rapes stay unchanged, if this ONE class could be eradicated (thus lowering the overall incidence of sexual violence) …”

The enthymeme being that the frequency of other rapes won’t increase – but how confident of that can we be? If/when rapists can no longer use the unlicensed minicab trick, do they just stop raping? Do the rapes they would have committed just evaporate, or do they find another way to rape?

Really? You think saying “men, don’t rape’ would make a rapist go, “hmmm, maybe i won’t rape her then, apparently it’s bad”???
I am aware that there are many types of rapist and many types of rape but this is highlighting one type and reminding women that there are ways of lessening the chance/preventing it happening. TFL aren’t going to start making posters stating statistics of rape by people the victim trusts, they are going to relate it to TRANSPORT.

I don’t think this campaign is victim blaming at all: it’s promoting a preventative measure. I’m not sure this is right to compare, but there are a lot of campaigns to promote safety on the internet to kids/teens.
It’s not blaming the victim (kids/teens) by saying ‘Look, don’t give out your name, address or any other personal details’. It’s trying to prevent the problem. I think a lot of victim blaming accusations are misjudged.

Never mind the right or wrong of the poster existing; is it absolutely necessary that that hand looming from the front seat is non white on all three posters, and quite clearly Asian/Muslim in the second one? That bothers me far more than the poster itself.

While I completely agree that no campaign that should suggest that a victim is responsible for being raped, rapes are still going to happen. If a bit of information, such as a suggestion to book a minicab instead of using an unlicensed one could reduce the chance of rape, why wouldn’t it be a good idea to disseminate that information? It is never someone’s fault if they are raped, but there are sometimes things that can be done to reduce the risk.

I wish we lived in a world where campaigns like this weren’t necessary – clearly they aren’t perfect. But unfortunately we live in a world where sexual violence is a very real risk to women and if campaigns like this can help some people to maker safer choices, then isn’t that a positive? Yes, it’s terrible that women have to think carefully to reduce the risk that they will be sexually assaulted, but if these posters improve anyone’s safety, even slightly, then surely that’s a good thing.

I can see the unfortunate subtext that it’s a woman’s responsibility to avoid rape, that if you don’t take the right measures then in some way you deserve the consequences – and don’t get me wrong, that is AWFUL. Victim blaming is a pervasive attitude that many are not conscious of and that we all need to address, but I don’t believe that was the intention of these ads.

Some people are irresponsible when it comes to their personal safety, especially on nights out. I’ve seen it, I’ve done it, and my friends and I have mostly been very lucky. Though my behaviour may have been irresponsible, it does NOT mean that, should I have been raped while drunk, or walking home alone, it would have been my fault.

Nobody chooses to be raped.

But it is important to be aware of risks – because they do exist – and to try and protect yourself. Should you fail to do so, it absolutely does not mean that any negative consequences are your fault. There is a difference there, and it’s important to recognise it, especially when to attitudes start to cross the blurry line into victim blaming.

Yes, we should have more campaigns targeted towards the education of men who might behave violently towards women, but the answer isn’t one type of campaign over another. We need both.

No matter what happens, there will always be men who rape. They know it’s wrong, but they do it anyway. Unfortunately this means that the rest of us have to take some precautions. As I said, this is not an ideal world.

I’d like to hear some alternative suggestions. I’ve seen comments suggesting these ads be targeted to all people, not just women, but the sad fact is that women are more likely to be sexually assaulted.

Also, and I’m aware this is something people mention a lot but could do with trotting out here. According to RAINN (US figures, https://rainn.org/get-information/statistics/sexual-assault-offenders):
Approximately 2/3 of rapes were committed by someone known to the victim.
73% of sexual assaults were perpetrated by a non-stranger.
38% of rapists are a friend or acquaintance.
28% are an intimate.
7% are a relative.

And Rapecrisis.org says “But in fact, only around 10% of rapes are committed by ‘strangers’.”http://www.rapecrisis.org.uk/commonmyths2.php
Yes, making PEOPLE (men and women) aware of unlicensed taxi cabs is a very good thing, accusing women of putting themselves in harm’s way by promoting your own business (TFL) is not. Making it about PEOPLE not men/women would have made this a far more effective and useful campaign.

These campaigns are important in teaching people how to take necessary precautions, as with anything in life. However I don’t like the way this campaign is going about it. I suspect they’re targeting a teenage audience of women and they want them to feel involved – but by encouraging them to take active participation in the campaign, I’m not sure it’s doing the right thing.

It’s exhausting being female and having to CONSTANTLY feel aware of attack, to clutch keys between your knuckles when you’re walking home late at night, to feel anxious and on edge whenever a stranger is walking too close to you in the dark. A generation of girls are just beginning to feel this kind of paranoia – and now we are asking them to keep it at the forefront of their mind, to actually post a picture as a badge of an achievement if they made it another day without getting raped? No, I’m not keen on that. I respect that we have to teach young men and women to make wise choices, but to once again perpetuate that this is something they need to constantly be paranoid about – no deal.

The campaign is #HomeSafeSelfie – of course they’re going to target the core demographic of ‘selfie-takers’; women. This isn’t blaming the victim, it’s informing a potential one by telling them not to get into unbooked cabs. What would be victim-blaming was if it suggested that if you do get into the cabs you DESERVED it, which is absolutely ridiculous.

Sadly, there will be awful people in the world who do these sorts of things and I do believe that there should be stricter re-enforcements on laws and more education about this area so that we can stop these kinds of people before they attack, but to suggest that to tell people you should always book a cab so you know you’re safe is misogynistic strikes me as just silly.

This campaign tried to pick-up on the ‘selfie’ hype and by doing so also went after a female demographic, and whilst it may be construed in a way that makes it seem like the victim is at fault, it’s just attempting to inform the public that it’s dangerous to approach unbooked cabs.

I understand you may not agree with me, and I’m worried your views are already locked firmly in place with the way this article is phrased. I’m also worried that I’m going to be scrutinised because I’m making no secret of the fact I’m a man.

I’m not quite sure why those statistics are relevant here. Absolutely, most sexual violence is committed by an acquaintance. The problem TFL seem to be addressing is a specific risk, that of sexual predation by false minicab drivers; they’re not trying to address ALL rapes (that would be very stupid).

Where on Earth is the accusation here that women are putting themselves in harm’s way? Or, to refer to your post below, where are TFL telling women to ‘buck their ideas up’ or ‘blaming them’? They’re not doing that at all; instead, you are reading it into the posters.

Occam’s razor surely applies here: instead of reading in to everything we see the most bizarre and egregious explanation we can find, why not just take each issue on its face? TFL is a public sector organisation (not a ‘business’) which is trying to raise awareness of a very specific risk that is plausibly experienced by a very select group of people. These people may very plausibly not have it at the forefront of their mind on nights out (why would they?), and TFL want to make them more mindful. One might very well complain that these posters should have images of all possible people, but that would simply water the message down. If most cases of THIS kind of attack happen to young women, why not ADDRESS young women? If young (/middle-aged/pensioner) men are not at risk, putting them in the poster is just a distraction.

It would seem to be a pretty rubbish state of affairs if our public organisations couldn’t warn people at risk for fear of irritating internet commentators who in many cases seem quite frankly to be spoiling for a fight.

Are you suggesting that even if we could prevent these rapes it might not be worth it, because these criminals might just find another way of committing their crimes (one which might prove more effective and thus might increase the rate of sexual violence)?

That seems a) bizarre; b) to neglect the strong possibility that these are opportunist criminals; and c) to neglect the likely fact that in so far as pre-meditated unlicensed taxi rape happens it is chosen because it is seems to offer the would-be criminals a better chance of fulfilling their nasty intentions than alternative approaches. It also seems plain counter-intuitive. Every crime we can prevent should be prevented.

Actually, you would be surprised how many young men do not know what is and is not sexual assault or rape. This is a massive problem. Just look at Steubenville for evidence of that, and all the headlines: “these kids weren’t clear what rape is”. When we have a society in which men do not know what they’re doing is wrong, then yes, we need to tell them and that’s where we need to focus.

It’s certainly an instruction that can be acted on with more actual power and authority than “women, don’t get raped”, which is the current angle.

And as others have said, some men do need to be informed about what constitutes rape just as much as men and women need to be informed about what situations they can enter that could prove a needless risk to their safety.

Telling men “don’t rape anyone” means that when they do, they know they have gone against that imperative. Whereas if all they see are instructions for women not to “ask for it”, it’s far easier psychologically to view the women as the instigators – and we see frequently that there are men who view women as evil tormentors withholding sex from them, not as equals deserving of respect and kindness.

Telling men that women (and other men) deserve kindness is a vital campaign. And in a world so anti-religion, where religion was the original basis for such instructions, we are lacking now, and don’t take it on as much as we should as a social responsibility.

Why I LIKE the #HomeSafeSelfie Campaign……………
………I’m a MUM of a grown up children – I’ve made sure my daughter and my sons have this app. I wouldn’t know about this app if I hadn’t seen the advertising.
It reminds women especially to think twice before they get into any cab.
The photo’s are eye catching and are looked at – so the information is noted. It gives them information about the CabWise app.
Posting a selfie is a choice.
You only have to be assaulted once for it to destroy your confidence, so stop the moaning and think about the crime statistics.
This article is a bit weak, unlike the advertising which is strong and should be supported.