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I can't think of any human who has had an experience that wasn't a human experience. You'd have to be dead.

Sooooooooo why does it count for so little around these parts when it's all we've got?

Some people talk as if there is something else a human can experience that isn't a human experience by a human.

Anyone have any insight into this phenomenon? I am confused?

I'm sitting here looking at the design of a chandelier thinking it's beautiful. I am really doing it, thinking it and feeling it. I can't prove it. Does the experience I am having right now not exist, is it not really happening because I can't prove it to anyone?

Does something have to be provable for it to have really happened for someone?

If I can prove it then its real and if I can't it was all in my head. Isn't everything we experience processed in our minds? What's the difference to ME? Should there be one?

I'm open to any comments. Not even sure what I am getting at. It just fell out.

All experiences are "human" as you say but they're also subject to human error stemming from limited knowledge of the environment or a failure to utilize that knowledge.

The chandelier being "beautiful" in your example is a subjective observation. This is not the same as you saying the chandelier is projecting the thoughts of those in the room into your head. One is irrefutable because there is nothing to refute. While the beauty of the candler could be debated it is purely subjective and dependent upon individual perception. The telekinetic chandelier example however is clearly demonstratable with a simple test.

And yes, you should try to separate reality from delusion.

--------------------Live by the foma that make you brave, and kind, and healthy, and happy.

I didn't say the chandelier told me it was beautiful. I said I imparted that value to it and then experienced it as such.

Are you saying that is a delusion? if I didn't really do that then what was the true reality happening while I was doing that?

Whatever that was didn't exist. See what I am saying?

The "delusion" was my real experience "what I really did experience" and anything else is the delusion because I didn't experience anything else. Nothing else happened beside my deciding it was beautiful and appreciating it. I can't even prove that I did that to anyone.

I think the evident line of thought here that should really, truly be considered by everyone is that, regardless of the mannerisms that humans have displayed in the past, the tendencies of the mind that operate right now, the philosophies and the manners in which we, as humans, regard life, the way we interact, etc. etc. etc., the term "human" represents a dynamic process that is still propagating itself and carrying itself out, and the nature of the mechanism known as the mind that operates within these humans, and as an integral, essential aspect of these humans, can take any form and can involve itself with any aspect of reality.

We are a changing, evolving process that doesn't possess very many limitations; ultimately, perhaps no limitations at all.

Peace.

--------------------If I should die this very moment
I wouldn't fear
For I've never known completeness
Like being here
Wrapped in the warmth of you
Loving every breath of you

Gettinjiggy, you just inadvertently agreed with me in that first line. While not a delusion that event is being related using a subjective judgment of the aesthetics. Had you said "that chandelier is hanging from the ceiling" this could be confirmed or refuted with no room for doubt remaining.

Reality is neither beautiful or ugly.

Also, it occurs to me that your perception of the chandelier being beautiful could be confirmed by testing your perception of smaller geometric elements contained within the chandelier and discovering what ones combine to form the larger whole of the chandelier you perceive as beautiful. If the test population for this experiment was large enough trends may be found and potentially used to demonstrate an innate human affinity to particular geometric arrangements.

--------------------Live by the foma that make you brave, and kind, and healthy, and happy.

For anyone additional to come who may not understand what I was asking, I think I can make it more clear.

Say you are home alone and for a ten minute moment in time, you are looking at your cat play with something. You are experience it to be an amazing creature for that ten minute moment.

You can't prove that , that ten minute moment in time really happened. Because you can't prove it didn't happen, does that mean it didn't?

Because it was experienced in your mind, does that make it a delusion? If so, what was the true reality that actually happened during that ten minutes?

Which one matters to you? Which one is the truth to you?

And one more question related to this. What sort of experience that you really have had, was not experienced with your mind?

What's the difference to you between that and one someone says was all in your mind? Isn't that where EVERYTHING you experience happens for you to know it did?

What's even wierder to me is that there are times, we say that we made a mistake. Is it that we really had a change of mind? How did the mind change from what it really experienced to believe it actually experienced something else instead?

Do we not shift from what we truly experienced into a delusion when we do that?

I must be trippen. Have fun with this !!!!!!! It's fucking with my head jolly good!

Quote:gettinjiggywithit said:You can't prove that , that ten minute moment in time really happened. Because you can't prove it didn't happen, does that mean it didn't?

If we allow the government to install audio and video sensors in our home, like good citizens should, then you could prove that is what really happened. I mean, its all in the name of protecting us from terrorism, right?

Peace.

--------------------If I should die this very moment
I wouldn't fear
For I've never known completeness
Like being here
Wrapped in the warmth of you
Loving every breath of you

Beauty is not an aspect of the chandelier. The chandelier is merely a collection of shapes and colours. It is your mind that finds such things beautiful that contains the experience of beauty. Beauty doesn't tell you anything more about the chandelier, no further information has entered your brain. All you've had is an experience.

Other people might not find the chandelier beautiful. They may think it is hideous, or they might not have an opinion at all. This shows pretty clearly that the chandelier itself it not beautiful, but that you get an experience of beauty while looking at it.

Something that is subjective, like the experience of beauty, or an emotion, is something that happens within you, not in the outside world.

If you feel that something is wonderful, you haven't been given information that something is wonderful, you've had an experience that feels like something is wonderful.

Human experiences are experiences. Emotions and mysterious are not information about the world around you, they are information about what is happening within your mind.

If you feel like you are sending out physical beams of love in all direction, this proves that you are FEELING like you're sending out physical beams of love in all direction, not that you're actually sending them out.

--------------------"I have no valid complaint against hustlers. No rational bitch. But the act of selling is repulsive to me. I harbor a secret urge to whack a salesman in the face, crack his teeth and put red bumps around his eyes." -Hunter S Thompson
http://phluck.is-after.us

You are experience it to be an amazing creature for that ten minute moment.

You can't prove that , that ten minute moment in time really happened. Because you can't prove it didn't happen, does that mean it didn't?

A subjective opinion cannot be delusional. You experienced something, "it felt like the cat was amazing". That's not something that can be demonstrated either way, because "amazing" has no clear definition.

However, things like ESP can be tested, as they are not merely opinions. People don't claim that looking at something and figuring out that it's awesome to be a form of ESP.

There's a huge difference between subjective opinions, and actual information.

If you say "I felt that painting was awesome", well, unless you're lying, then you can't be wrong. You're describing your emotions. If you say "I felt that I could move objects with my mind", well that's something that you'd have to demonstrate for it to be right. Because even if you feel it, it could still be wrong.

If you rely on your feelings to tell you what your feelings are, then you can't go wrong. If you rely on your feelings to give you other information, then you CAN be wrong.

--------------------"I have no valid complaint against hustlers. No rational bitch. But the act of selling is repulsive to me. I harbor a secret urge to whack a salesman in the face, crack his teeth and put red bumps around his eyes." -Hunter S Thompson
http://phluck.is-after.us

but aren't our opinions of objectivity comprised of subjective impressions? you see a chandelier, i see a chandelier, there's an objective chandelier. you see a beautiful chandelier, i see a beautiful chandelier, isn't there an objectively beautiful chandelier - for you and i?

yet someone else may not see any chandelier at all- if they are blind, tripping, or psychotic.

it's like "objectivity" picks and chooses in a highly subjective fashion, who qualifies to be an objective subject.

--------------------"consensus on the nature of equilibrium is usually established by periodic conflict." -henry kissinger

Wish you would have done all of them as some were trickier to answer. You just did the easy and common ones. I still appreciate it though.

Crunchy!!!!!!! You nailed what I was really contemplating and had a hard time wording it or showing what I was seeing and considering.

Ever take anything apart to see how it is put together and what it's made of, like in reverse engineering? That's what I am doing here.

We have all of these separate classifications for how reality can be viewed and yet, there's also the idea that there is only one reality. How can that be? If there was, then why all of the separate labels for many different ones? I want to understand this not theoretically but , through experiential examples. When I do it that way, I get one reality , one experience per moment, no matter what label is put on it. That's all I can have personally. If something or someone has me change my mind about a previous one, I am technically in an illusion/delusion/self deception of it from that point on because my memory of it tells me I did experience something else from what I changed my mind too based on an others subjective view of the previous moment.

If there is a subjective reality and an objective one and all we have is human perception to experience both of them with, that has to make even the objective reality subjective unless we have a non human playing the objective role.

FW was being funny, however, a video camera is probably the closest thing we have to something being able to give us a non human objective view at this time. But even it has a subjective view. It is setting itself up to be subjected to perceiving reality. It has limitations for what it can view and record.

Play with this one. As our subjective framework for viewing reality changes so does or may the objective reality.

If our frame work for perceiving the shape of the earth leads us to experience it to be a flat plane, then the object of the earth is flat to us.

If we can change the frame work for perceiving it by launching a camera or ourselves into space, or by sailing around it, now the object of the earth has changed shape. We were able to experience the 3 dimensions of it from space, seeing it had height, width and depth and the 4 dimensions of it by sailing "moving/time" around it and perceive it to be a sphere. Before, we just had the two dimensional experience of it when we only walked a part of it for short distances.

Consider that up the road, 1,000 years from now, a new framework will be added to our perception of viewing reality and we may find the object of the earth to be yet again, a different shape.

Even with the camera, can it fool us and give us a "wrong picture" of what something really is or of how a physical sequence took place?

Look at what happens to the object just between a 2 D ultrasound picture and a 4D one.

Adding dimensions to perspective radically can change the view of an object.

What happens to objective reality when subjective human perception start being able to see it through a framework of more dimensions.

What would the earth like if we could view it from a 5 or 6 dimensional perspective?

See how objects or objective reality are still based on the subjective perception of the frame works it views it through?

What will the 5 or 6D camera of the future show us about the objects of the universe?

We will have to change the objective truth again. How can one argue that objective truth is a fixed absolute as is?

In the end, it would seem that all "facts" are still opinions based on subjective viewing frameworks.

Mine did. What's up with yours...is it sick? Anyway if you are a human then any experience is human. What is non-human experience? I have been trying to get Leonard, my dog to tell me, but there is a communication barrier.

--------------------"A warrior is a hunter. He calculates everything. That's control. Once his calculations are over, he acts. He lets go. That's abandon. A warrior is not a leaf at the mercy of the wind. No one can push him; no one can make him do things against himself or against his better judgment. A warrior is tuned to survive, and he survives in the best of all possible fashions." ― Carlos Castaneda

Hue .....you rock!!!!! That leads into my next phase of exploring this...... the flowers are singing to us or so some say. I'll get to it in another reply.

I don't know what is non human experience either. How can there be a right one and a wrong one when there is only one? The wrong one must be and I want to know what the hell that is and who has them or how someone can. This is fucking with my head how people reason such stuff to themselves. When I do, I am deceiving myself and that is the state most people are calling the real one. I don't get it. It all is the real one then.

A pig gomp huh? Yes , a pig has one. Are you a pig? I made the comment that you would have to die first and detach from the physical body and become consciously attached to another object to know another type of experience that isn't from the human perspective. I know where you would go with that comment because you know you are already dead. I find so much joy in you I can't contain it. It bursts out with laughter. I love you so much gomp! Thank You for existing and sharing yourself at this time!

I lost everything I wanted to say. The jist of it had to do with what will "objective" reality look like when we develop 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, and up dimensional viewing equipment?

The question is, what if people having what are deemed delusional or self deceptive experiences are just already perceiving in extra dimensions of reality, currently not perceived by most?

What if evolution is taking us there?

Look at how on a drug induced trip, the walls are warping and the lampshade talks to you. What if they really are and the current view finder humans are using just is equipped to see it that way. What if the current view finder of human biology is limited from perceiving and warping true reality?

If, the brain has the ability to see such imagery or hear non audible sound then it has it, regardless if its drug induced or not. WHY?

Are those aspects of the brain related to dormant DNA not being utilized at this time. Are we or we will move into extra perception abilities as the dormant DNA comes into use?

What if?

What if it does and we, find, what we thought the truth of objective reality was the not the whole truth of it at all, just like with the flat earth.

Old cameras couldn't capture objective movement. Even though what they did capture was relative to where the object of the camera was and what subject it was focused on.

Now, they can capture sound and movement. Consider the differences between film that required a negative versus digital imagery.

Now look at human evolution like that of evolving camera technology.

What if flowers do emit music outside of the audio measurable range by current hearing biology or test equipment technology?

What if there is more to the human frame work that can capture more of human reality we haven't detected yet? What if some humans with advanced biology technology can perceive sound with equipment we have not yet detected? What if the human body is multi dimensional beyond 4 dimensions?

What if all this time, myself included, we have called people self deceptive, delusional or in fantasy land are capturing more of the objective truth of non apparent reality?

It's not fair to use a ruler to measure something with a metric based length and say the metric measurement is wrong based on the ruler.

Well, I have exhausted my mind on this for now. Thanks for exploring with me. Hope it took at least one person to a new thought or view they haven't considered or seen before.

Would it be accurate to say that you have had transcendant experiences? I have had many experiences that transcended thought and emotion as I normally experience it. If you don't find a meaning and a context for them such experiences are delusions or and fantasy. Given a meaning they can be guidance...omen...or prophecy.

--------------------"A warrior is a hunter. He calculates everything. That's control. Once his calculations are over, he acts. He lets go. That's abandon. A warrior is not a leaf at the mercy of the wind. No one can push him; no one can make him do things against himself or against his better judgment. A warrior is tuned to survive, and he survives in the best of all possible fashions." ― Carlos Castaneda

"Something, calls to me,The trees are drawing me near, I've got to find out why?Those gentle voices I hear, explain it all with a sigh."- Justin Hayward

--------------------"A warrior is a hunter. He calculates everything. That's control. Once his calculations are over, he acts. He lets go. That's abandon. A warrior is not a leaf at the mercy of the wind. No one can push him; no one can make him do things against himself or against his better judgment. A warrior is tuned to survive, and he survives in the best of all possible fashions." ― Carlos Castaneda