I've been re-reading "Hall of Harsh Reflections," as I'll be running it in about a month or so, & I noticed something about Zyrxog that may have been addressed on these boards before, namely, his CR seems wrong.

Spoilers. . .

.
.
.
.
.
.

In HoHR, Zyrxog is listed as being CR 11, but he's a 7th level mind flayer sorcerer. Now, the MM lists a 9th level mind flayer sorcerer with a CR of 17, so shouldn't Zyrxog's CR be 15 instaed of 11?

Has anyone run Zyrxog as written? I can't imagine a 7-8th level party being able to take him & 2 octopins without suffering anear TPK, especially if he's ready for them. Hell, his mind blast has a DC of 23, which can easily put half a party out of commission for 3-12 rounds. Am I missing something?

Well for starters according to page 294 of the Monster Manual the advanced example has the wrong CR. Since 'flayers don't have sorcerer like spell ability to begin with sorcerer levels are non-associated and therefore worth half as much CR up to the monster's racial Hit Dice (8HD in the case of a mind fayer). That means 7 levels of sorcerer add 3.5 to his racial CR of 8 which comes out to 11 or 12. They rounded down because they are mean. ;)

Well for starters according to page 294 of the Monster Manual the advanced example has the wrong CR. Since 'flayers don't have sorcerer like spell ability to begin with sorcerer levels are non-associated and therefore worth half as much CR up to the monster's racial Hit Dice (8HD in the case of a mind fayer). That means 7 levels of sorcerer add 3.5 to his racial CR of 8 which comes out to 11 or 12. They rounded down because they are mean. ;)

Okay, then it looks like the DC for his mind blast is too high. If it's treated as a 4th level spell+ his Charisma of 22, then the DC should be 20, not 23. That gives those with lower will saves a fighting chance,, at least-- the biggest problem is being useless for up to 12 rounds. Speaking of which--are there any spells which negate the "stunned" condition? The only one I know of offhand is Heal.

Okay, then it looks like the DC for his mind blast is too high. If it's treated as a 4th level spell+ his Charisma of 22, then the DC should be 20, not 23. That gives those with lower will saves a fighting chance,, at least-- the biggest problem is being useless for up to 12 rounds. Speaking of which--are there any spells which negate the "stunned" condition? The only one I know of offhand is Heal.

Actually its treated as a 4th level for dispel and such. The DC was probably figured like this: 10 + Chr Modifer + half the monster's racial HD = 10 + 6 + 4. It still equals 20, but an important distinction for future monsters you might work on (Monster Manual 315). You might want to check him to see if he has any feat that might augment his blast as well.

Okay, then it looks like the DC for his mind blast is too high. If it's treated as a 4th level spell+ his Charisma of 22, then the DC should be 20, not 23. That gives those with lower will saves a fighting chance,, at least-- the biggest problem is being useless for up to 12 rounds. Speaking of which--are there any spells which negate the "stunned" condition? The only one I know of offhand is Heal.

Actually its treated as a 4th level for dispel and such. The DC was probably figured like this: 10 + Chr Modifer + half the monster's racial HD = 10 + 6 + 4. It still equals 20, but an important distinction for future monsters you might work on (Monster Manual 315). You might want to check him to see if he has any feat that might augment his blast as well.

GGG

Nope. Mind blast is a spell-like ability, not a supernatural one. So the DC is 10 + Chr Mod + spell level. Which still comes out to 20. I remember seeing elsewhere on these boards that the DC 23 was in error. Even if he had Ability Focus (mind blast), the DC would still only be 22.

Has anyone run Zyrxog as written? I can't imagine a 7-8th level party being able to take him & 2 octopins without suffering anear TPK, especially if he's ready for them. Hell, his mind blast has a DC of 23, which can easily put half a party out of commission for 3-12 rounds. Am I missing something?

The party gets a preview and then has time to prepare, so they should be ready for him. He's still a pretty bad dude, though.

I'm running two campaigns of AoW, and we just finished HoHR. One party said, "To heck with this, the dang mind flayer can live!" and left him alone... the other won wiped out all of his minions, and then had to retreat before they faced him. Being the smart illithid he is, he grabbed his junk and fled, but not before he charmed and suggestioned several commoners and low level experts into poisoning the local wells... hhehehehee!

Both of my groups heard about his CR, and they're quoting the dang MM to me to show how tough he's supposed to be... So, everyone out there who run this encounter, how tough is he, really?

There are errors in the Monster Manual. The mind flayer sorcerer's CR is one of them, as is the fact that there are several animals who have Weapon Finesse as their feat even though they don't qualify for the feat (they need +1 BAB).

From everything I've seen and heard, Zyrxog is right about where he needs to be for a powerful end-of-the-adventure boss. He's got some very strong defenses and offenses, but if your party plans for the battle and uses tactics well, it's by no means a no-win encounter.

When you get right down to it, adding sorcerer levels to a monster (ANY monster) who doesn't already cast spells as a sorcerer simply isn't as tough as people seem to think it is.

Has anyone run Zyrxog as written? I can't imagine a 7-8th level party being able to take him & 2 octopins without suffering anear TPK, especially if he's ready for them. Hell, his mind blast has a DC of 23, which can easily put half a party out of commission for 3-12 rounds. Am I missing something?

The party gets a preview and then has time to prepare, so they should be ready for him. He's still a pretty bad dude, though.

PurdueDave has it right. I ran the encounters with Zyrxog as written, and honestly, he nearly took out the group in the first encounter. From that point on, the part knows that they're going to face a mind flayer, and they have ample opportunity to prepare. My group did indeed use spell immunity to protect from the mind blast, and that helped immensely, as did liberal use of a wand of dispel magic.

There are errors in the Monster Manual. The mind flayer sorcerer's CR is one of them, as is the fact that there are several animals who have Weapon Finesse as their feat even though they don't qualify for the feat (they need +1 BAB).

From everything I've seen and heard, Zyrxog is right about where he needs to be for a powerful end-of-the-adventure boss. He's got some very strong defenses and offenses, but if your party plans for the battle and uses tactics well, it's by no means a no-win encounter.

When you get right down to it, adding sorcerer levels to a monster (ANY monster) who doesn't already cast spells as a sorcerer simply isn't as tough as people seem to think it is.

Tell me about it. My 1st group pratically won't accept the ruling of anyone, including me! It's getting so frustrating that I'm at the point of telling them either they're going to accept what I say, and not argue about it in the game, or I'm going to stop running.

I mean, it's like.... Skip Williams, who's he? Only one of the guys who wrote the game, and is the final source on rules. (I'm thinking about finding his home phone number, because I'm sick of hearing the word WHY?) And they won't accept his rulings! I'm at my wits end with them.

I agree with the CR, Zyroxog would never ever use a spell in combat above and beyond Mind Blast unless he saw that the party was immune to it, its just too powerfull and leaves them defenseless against his brain eating which he would certainly want to do.

So what is the save DC for the mind blast? 20 or 23????

Is the MindBlast a mind affecting spell and hence blocked by Protection From Evil?

You guys are right though, the party must go to the library and find out information about him, what is the DC 10+his CR?