lsayre wrote:If Obamacare is a tax, is it a direct or an indirect tax? If it is direct, per the Constitution it must be properly apportioned between the States, and if it is indirect, it must be 100% uniform (also per the Constitution). If it is neither direct nor indirect, then it is a tax that is not even defined and delineated as a tax by the Constitution. And if undefined, how (and on what legal grounds) can the Supreme Court approve it as a tax?

I'm finally figuring it out as well. It's not left or right. It's US. ALL of us, as individuals. As a society we've lost our morals. We've purged religion from the mainstream. We've fallen asleep at the wheel, and kicked back on the couch, beer in hand, while corrupt & immoral politicians sold our country down the river. We have only ourselves to blame. Things have been so good for so long that everyone was lulled to sleep.

Now, we're AWAKE. Most of us are anyway - there's still a frightening number of Americans still in a slumber (some of my friends are among them). By the time they awaken, it will be too late.

I got to hand it to Obama though - he's made me learn more about politics and our country's history than I ever learned in school. I believe that's true for lots of people who've recently awakened.

I also find it amusing how he never mentions the record-breaking gun & ammunition boom he helped create. It's the one thing he's done right for the economy and yet he never mentions it ...

That's the problem "Smitty" we think because it is written in history we are to smart to let it happen again. History has taught us though that a democracy normally only lasts about 200 years. Long enough for the people to figure that they can vote for people that give them things (like health care). Before you know it things can't support all the give aways and it all falls in on itself. I know our country was set up as a Republic, but is being run as a democracy. The next step is either socialism or revolution. Like you said guns and ammo sales are through the roof. Didn't the president sign a executive order giving him control of interstate travel, industry, and the military inside the boarders of the US. He knows his history. Wake up people! The storms brewing.

With the more centrist Kennedy dissenting, Roberts signed off on the individual mandate in ObamaCare, not as part of Congress' power under the Commerce Clause, or even the ludicrous reference to the "Good and Welfare Clause" from some Democrats, but from the more mundane and substantial power to tax. The opinion actually ruled that the mandate violates the Commerce Clause, but as a tax that no longer matters.

It's an interesting argument, but one that should have Americans worried. Basically, this is a tax that you have to pay to private companies. For all of the screaming the Right did over single-payer -- and for good, outcome-based reasons -- at least the money paid by taxpayers would go directly to government ]. The Supreme Court has signed off on what is, in very practical terms, a tax levied by the insurance industry on Americans simply for existing. It's an amazing, and fearsome, decision that really should have both Right and Left horrified.

Full List of Obamacare Tax HikesObamacare law contains 20 new or higher taxes on American families and small businesses Taxpayers are reminded that the President's healthcare law is one of the largest tax increases in American history.

Obamacare contains 20 new or higher taxes on American families and small businesses.

Arranged by their respective effective dates, below is the total list of all $500 billion-plus in tax hikes (over the next ten years) in Obamacare, where to find them in the bill, and how much your taxes are scheduled to go up as of today:

Taxes that take effect in 2014:

17. Individual Mandate Excise Tax (Jan 2014): Starting in 2014, anyone not buying "qualifying" health insurance must pay an income surtax according to the higher of the following

1 Adult2 Adults3+ Adults

20141% AGI/$951% AGI/$1901% AGI/$285

20152% AGI/$3252% AGI/$6502% AGI/$975

2016 +2.5% AGI/$6952.5% AGI/$13902.5% AGI/$2085

Exemptions for religious objectors, undocumented immigrants, prisoners, those earning less than the poverty line, members of Indian tribes, and hardship cases (determined by HHS). Bill: PPACA; Page: 317-337

What I see is that money is no longer just money. Depending on where it is derived some money is worth more than other money. We now need phalanxes of accountants and tax lawyers to tell us which kind of money we have. Ever increasing complexity in something simple along with ever increasing parasites dragging down any effort to produce; gross domestic product goes up while actual production goes down.

PLEASE don't forget, this law has not yet been completely written and that's what makes this law so insidious. As we've already seen, Kathleen Sebilous has supreme power to make up the rules as she goes along ( war on womens and the Catholic Church anyone?) That was only the begining, lest you forget the agreed upon age for Breast Cancer screenings was 40yrs old then The GOVERNMENT Advisory board comes after OBamacare and say nawww, 50yrs old is good, the medical community just about flipped out. Same thing for Prostate exams for men.

This was never about care, it was always about Giving the Gov. more power....and they got it. If you watch ABC news last night they all but admitted that they can now use punitive taxation on every thing in your life and you have no recourse. That is NOT Hyperbole, it's the LAW. They actully seemed giddy about it.

But then again, becuase I think this bad for our counrty and it's people, I must be a RACIST.

Ed.A wrote:PLEASE don't forget, this law has not yet been completely written and that's what makes this law so insidious. As we've already seen, Kathleen Sebilous has supreme power to make up the rules as she goes along

Generally speaking Ed this is how it usually works, Congress writes a law but they don't cover every little detail hence the reason the EPA can regulate greenhouse gases based on a law written in 1990. It wouldn't be practical to have laws covering every specific detail, if the regulatory agency goes beyond the powers of the law it will be settled in the courts and/or Congress will amend the law. If the GOP gets control of both houses and the WH Obamacre and the regulatory powers of the EPA over greenhouse gases are both on the chopping block.

Because I think a lot of opposition to President Obama IS racism, albeit unconscious. I have been around a lot of years, and a lot of presidents, and never have I seen such unmitigated vitriol directed at any president before Obama. Opposition, yes. Criticism, yes. But never this blind unreasoning hatred. Even with Nixon, even with W, his opponents were willing to admit to some honorable intentions and some good qualities. But with President Obama, nothing of the sort. He's just the wrong color.

SMITTY wrote:Things have been so good for so long that everyone was lulled to sleep.

Very true, I could not agree more.

SMITTY wrote:I also find it amusing how he never mentions the record-breaking gun & ammunition boom he helped create.

Well, I agreed with your last point, but I have to chuckle at this one. As far as I can see, the Obama administration has done next to nothing to threaten gun rights. However, the makers and sellers of guns, and the dues-hungry NRA, TOLD us all that our rights were threatened and that we had better buy our guns and ammo now, before it is too late. It was smart business and it worked and they sold a lot of product. The joke is on us.

Dann757 wrote:The Supreme Court has signed off on what is, in very practical terms, a tax levied by the insurance industry on Americans simply for existing.

How do you feel about the mandatory liability insurance required for driving your car? How is that different? And don't tell me it is different because you can choose not to drive -- as a practical matter, if you live in this country, you can not get along without driving (or having somebody in your household who does). Why are you not declaiming against car insurance?

In fact the "tax" is already levied by the insurance monopoly on everybody who has health insurance. If anything, the law will reduce the tax by limiting what percentage of your premiums they can pocket as profits.

lsayre wrote:... is it seriously time to consider something else, such as anarcho-capitalism)?

Don't make me laugh! As soon as a guy or a group comes along with more and bigger guns, to take away your anarcho-capitalist private property, you will need to organize your tribe and the neighboring tribes into self-defense units, and before you know it the organization will evolve into (gasp!) a GOVERNMENT, and you will be right back where you started except with a lot of people dead along the way.