@hifilover.... perhaps the discussion is on cutting style rather then correctness of work. I am wondering whether his default really always make one look better.

@Gatsbyu... my underatanding of a crooked is different, pls educate me on this.... i think the cut is somehow Italian influenced.

The jacket is basically like this (of cause, he added dart and side panel). You can see, the reason why his cut puts lots of waist suppression on the back is that there is lots of overlapping over there. For the waist suppression on the forepart and side panel. If the jacket is already close fit, it is hard to suppress the front waist without creases. (imagine that when the chest and hip is already fit, trimming the waist will distort the fit on these two parts). That's why the forepart is relative flat.

The concept of crooked and straight can be used for 1) position of neck, 2) the general position of the forepart held. I am referring the crooked forepart. For the position of neck, you may think it is crooked but it is not necessary true. The position of back neck also plays an important role when we talk about balanced cutting.

Btw, I don't sense any Italian elements in his cut. First, his sleeve pattern is very straight while Italian is set in inverted. Second, most of Italian systems have very high and small armhole. Not low armhole. Third, almost all Italian cutting systems don't have skirt shape on the hip like what another member posted. More, his lapel roll line is not displaced out like this, truly Italian pattern

Although I agree that the waist suppression are on the side panel, however I wish to point out that he deliberately cut the back on greater bias and let the forepart to have the volume. Adding this, I am unsure whether the side panel really would have large mount of overlapping to the British tailoring theory.

I totally agree with your saying that "The position of back neck also plays an important role when we talk about balanced cutting." With a higher collar, it can make a straight cut more crooked.

Your assertion of "no italian element" is rather bold. I find a good amount of Italian do like the slight flared skirt shape. I have also find good amount of Italian like to cut straight sleeves. Lai's sleeves are in default very slim and his armholes are relatively high. I suppose with his forepart design he will not be able to canvass out a generous lapel roll (yet those are not universally popular in Italy either.

One thing I wish you ask and discuss is whether Lai's cut, which in my opinion is an overall straight cut, sometimes may highlight the clean back too much and overlook the proportion between the chest vis-a-vis front waistline.

Although I agree that the waist suppression are on the side panel, however I wish to point out that he deliberately cut the back on greater bias and let the forepart to have the volume. Adding this, I am unsure whether the side panel really would have large mount of overlapping to the British tailoring theory.

I totally agree with your saying that "The position of back neck also plays an important role when we talk about balanced cutting." With a higher collar, it can make a straight cut more crooked.

Your assertion of "no italian element" is rather bold. I find a good amount of Italian do like the slight flared skirt shape. I have also find good amount of Italian like to cut straight sleeves. Lai's sleeves are in default very slim and his armholes are relatively high. I suppose with his forepart design he will not be able to canvass out a generous lapel roll (yet those are not universally popular in Italy either.

One thing I wish you ask and discuss is whether Lai's cut, which in my opinion is an overall straight cut, sometimes may highlight the clean back too much and overlook the proportion between the chest vis-a-vis front waistline.

The overlapped part is only used on draft, you won't see it in the production pattern cause it is impossible cut it this way. The overlapping simply indicate a skirt shape at the hip.

Yes, Italian may cut skirt because it is needed for some figures. Of cause, some of tailors there may also cut straight sleeve, it is easier and simpler for both pattern making and sleeve attachment!. BUT, THESE ARE NOT COMMON AND I DON'T THINK ANYONE LEARNING ITALIAN CUTTING WILL JUST ABSORB THE ADNORMAL STUFF. The reason why skirt is not common in Italian cutting because it distorts waist suppression of the chest and hip. (Italian cutting emphases on waist suppression, from chest to hip). The reason why the sleeve is inverted because the sleeve cap is relative large in their cutting and it needs to twist the sleeve to conceal the redundant area of sleeve cap.

Back to your question, I agree with you about his waist suppression. And yes, the balanced of cut is overlooked. It may be improved by drafting back part first, measuring the overall chest, waist and hip ease, then more evenly distribute it among the fore,side and back part. And for your straight/crooked cut opinion, actually, a coat can be straightly cut but crooked eventually after iron work. You better to focus on the end result instead of just the cut. To make it better, I believe you also need to think about the front dart. Did he cut fish dart or diamond dart ?Edited by Gatsbyu - 10/3/15 at 4:26am

What kind of men do you recommend to Tailor Lai? What kind of men do you recommend to W.W. Chan ?

Take aside styling issues. Mr Lai in my opinion makes the best beater workwear (think of HK summer work suits). Chan is more for the quality influenced customer.

Although Lai's coat has all the hallmarks of traditional constructions, the refinement is below Chan and Grand tailor.

Chan probably has the best trimmings out of my usual goers.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gatsbyu

Once the member here SUCCESSFULLY educates Mr. Lai, a tailor with decades of tailoring experience and his own methodology of cutting, I vote for Mr. Lai, definitely.

Ha I have never tried to (or your terminology educated) Lai to change his own values. Of all my orders with Lai, I am always happy for what he provides. However, given my taste is not typical in Hong Kong, I try my best to work with Lai so I can get a more refined garment overall.

In your words I can sense a vague provocation, in here I wish tto say sorry if I have offended you earlier.

Again, I like to discuss and hence learn from everyone's knowledge for my own gain (not only Lai but also for all my future commission)

Take aside styling issues. Mr Lai in my opinion makes the best beater workwear (think of HK summer work suits). Chan is more for the quality influenced customer.

Although Lai's coat has all the hallmarks of traditional constructions, the refinement is below Chan and Grand tailor.

Chan probably has the best trimmings out of my usual goers.
Ha I have never tried to (or your terminology educated) Lai to change his own values. Of all my orders with Lai, I am always happy for what he provides. However, given my taste is not typical in Hong Kong, I try my best to work with Lai so I can get a more refined garment overall.

In your words I can sense a vague provocation, in here I wish tto say sorry if I have offended you earlier.

Again, I like to discuss and hence learn from everyone's knowledge for my own gain (not only Lai but also for all my future commission)

I didn't have any feeling on that, I replied you when I was fixing my sewing machine, for a whole day, maybe I was not happy with the repairing progress and its preformance lol. It affects my emotion.

Back to the discussion, I think Lai has crooked the coat because this cutting usually needs a bigger ease at the forepart, so you feel it is relative flat and baggy. Strictly speaking, straight or crooked cutting means whether the coat is held straight or pull back. Although we focus on the neckpoint (the usual means to crooken/straighten the coat), but shoulder slope, shoulder padding and the cutting of the back also play significant role on the balance of cutting. This is a very advanced topic even for Savile Row apprenticeship programs.

As I remember, you have a stooped posture. The feeling you have for your suits may be improved by adjusting shoulder slope and padding.

I didn't have any feeling on that, I replied you when I was fixing my sewing machine, for a whole day, maybe I was not happy with the repairing progress and its preformance lol. It affects my emotion.

Back to the discussion, I think Lai has crooked the coat because this cutting usually needs a bigger ease at the forepart, so you feel it is relative flat and baggy. Strictly speaking, straight or crooked cutting means whether the coat is held straight or pull back. Although we focus on the neckpoint (the usual means to crooken/straighten the coat), but shoulder slope, shoulder padding and the cutting of the back also play significant role on the balance of cutting. This is a very advanced topic even for Savile Row apprenticeship programs.

As I remember, you have a stooped posture. The feeling you have for your suits may be improved by adjusting shoulder slope and padding.

I totally agree with your saying that "Although we focus on the neckpoint (the usual means to crooken/straighten the coat), but shoulder slope, shoulder padding and the cutting of the back also play significant role on the balance of cutting. This is a very advanced topic even for Savile Row apprenticeship programs.". This is because I find Lai's coat tend to move the side proportion forward, thereby keeping the back neat and providing most of the volume at the front.

I think Lai can cut my stuff with more crooked collar and more balanced front-back ratio. At currently, Lai puts enough padding on my shoulder.

Another thing I wish Lai can monitor is the front overlapping. I will greatly benefit if Lai can make a more closed quarter to show less shirt.

I totally agree with your saying that "Although we focus on the neckpoint (the usual means to crooken/straighten the coat), but shoulder slope, shoulder padding and the cutting of the back also play significant role on the balance of cutting. This is a very advanced topic even for Savile Row apprenticeship programs.". This is because I find Lai's coat tend to move the side proportion forward, thereby keeping the back neat and providing most of the volume at the front.

I think Lai can cut my stuff with more crooked collar and more balanced front-back ratio. At currently, Lai puts enough padding on my shoulder.

Another thing I wish Lai can monitor is the front overlapping. I will greatly benefit if Lai can make a more closed quarter to show less shirt.

Without displacing the roll line, collar can't be crooked by cutting, it needs iron work by stretching instead. Otherwise, you will have fit problem of the collar.

Of all the preferred SF HK tailors (Baroman, Dream, Grand, Lai and WW Chan), which would be the most suited to attempt an Ambrosi recreation (Button cuff, No break, High waist, Suspender buttons, Side adjusters, Pleats, etc.)? I have commissioned a suit from Baroman before and enjoyed the process very much, but if another tailor can do a better job, I would go to them.

Of all the preferred SF HK tailors (Baroman, Dream, Grand, Lai and WW Chan), which would be the most suited to attempt an Ambrosi recreation (Button cuff, No break, High waist, Suspender buttons, Side adjusters, Pleats, etc.)? I have commissioned a suit from Baroman before and enjoyed the process very much, but if another tailor can do a better job, I would go to them.

But, I find Brown Tailor is quite good at copying style, though you can't expect the same level of needle work (which is the soul of Napoli Tailoring).

And WWchan provides the best craftsmanship among the tailors you listed because their company has strong QC checking and requirements to their workers.

Lai, which I mentioned several times, is a good tailor on doing traditional shanghai tailoring. Hand stitching is very good in my opinion. He also tried to do something more modern. But I don't think he is opened and capable to substantially reengineer his coat making method unless another overseas trained tailor (which is very very very hard to find as most of good fashion guys joined RTW industry in HK) teach him.

And Dream Bespoke, which is quite tricky to me. Based on their work I saw and my visit, I think they modified traditional pattern commonly used in HK, some of the adjustment like trimming supplies are very good. I admire the shop owner's commitment on doing something special. But it seems overrated especially in another local famous forum.

Generally speaking, HK tailors are not trained under Italian system. Even though some of them can make coat look similar from outside (eg Neapolitan shoulder or Milanese buttonhole). You won't feel the same when you wear the coat. Just because the coat is done in different way. It is not a good to ask the tailor here to copy other countries' styles. Why HK can't do tailoring like Korea and Japan ? They structure own tailoring techniques and establish their country style.