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Re: Sorry, Uncle - Michael Bourn signs with Indians

One must remember the Tribe has McGuiness and Giambi pencilled in at DH. Stubbs need only outproduce them in order to justify putting the best defensive outfield in the lineup. While some may debate whether Stubbs can outproduce a rule 5 pickup and a 42 year old, the fact is the DH picture is ugly for Cleveland at the moment.

As for keeping Choo, Brantley has less than average range and arm in CF. Besides Choo was not going to stay. They turned a year of Choo into Bauer, Swisher and Stubbs. Choo may be the short term answer for the Reds but he was not the long-term solution for the Indians.

Re: Sorry, Uncle

Originally Posted by Reds/Flyers Fan

If Drew would have learned how to bunt and embrace that aspect of the game, he wouldn't be in this situation. He was too stubborn (STUBBorn) to change his approach. Now he finds himself off a World Series contender and his new also-ran team isn't even sure of him.

I really hate when I read things like this.

Stubbs did change his approach. A few times. Last year, his low OBP is a direct result of him changing his approach to what more people always wanted him to do (be more aggressive early in counts). It killed any offensive value he ever provided.

Stubbs is never going to be able to make contact like people want him to. He just isn't skilled enough. Could he bunt more? Maybe. But let's be honest here, how many extra hits was that going to net? 5?

Juan Pierre bunted 39 times last season. 17 went as sac bunts, 10 went as hits. So he hit .455 on bunts (10-22). Stubbs went 4-13 with 6 sac bunts. Bunting wasn't going to make him a truly better guy at the plate.

Re: Sorry, Uncle

Originally Posted by REDREAD

I guess I disagree. Bourn is going to be around 4-5 years.
Choo was gone at the end of the year. The Tribe did try hard to sign him. If he was willing to take 4/48, I'm sure Choo would've been extended.

I don't get this binary idea of team building..( either you completely suck and play all kids or you go "all in").. The Indians obviously had the money to sign Swisher and Bourn. Those may end up being the first two key pieces when they are relevant later. Bauer is a nice arm to add as well.
Good teams add talent by every avenue possible. The Indians have added considerable talent. So Cleveland loses their 2nd and 3rd draft picks? No big deal.. Not many 2/3 picks end up as talented as Bourn. Most don't even make the majors. Plus, don't forget about Bauer.. Wouldn't you trade a 2nd round draft pick to get Bauer? I would..

I didn't get the feeling they tried all that hard to sign Choo. I thought it was one of those PR moves, we need to sign Choo but his agent is Boras and he will be too expensive. I do think they could have signed Choo to a similar Borne contract.

I kind of see this like a Reds and Cordero signing. It addressed a need at the time but it was a number of seasons too soon. I don't think the Indians are going to be contenders this season and probably not the next. If they draft and develop properly and turn into a contender 3-4 years down the road Borne will help, but he won't be what he is now.

There is no cut and dry way to build a solid club. If you look at the successful teams (take out the Yankees) they have done it through draft and development. Teams are making the move towards extending their young players early and buying out arbitration years. Its leaving the players who eventually hit the FA market to be less than stellar or on the tail end of their career. If he Indians were a player away I think this is a heck of a deal. But for a club that looks to be in the middle of pack money could have been spent better elsewhere.

Re: Sorry, Uncle - Michael Bourn signs with Indians

The Indians traded Choo because they knew they could not sign him. It is as simple as that.

The Cleveland front office has greatly improved their team and the owners showed a willingness to spend which they have not before. At some point the fans tire of rebuild upon rebuild and you have to make some moves to improve the team on the field and draw the fans back and give the team a chance on the field.

Re: Sorry, Uncle - Michael Bourn signs with Indians

Originally Posted by Bill

The Indians traded Choo because they knew they could not sign him. It is as simple as that.

The Cleveland front office has greatly improved their team and the owners showed a willingness to spend which they have not before. At some point the fans tire of rebuild upon rebuild and you have to make some moves to improve the team on the field and draw the fans back and give the team a chance on the field.

Chance? GET PITCHING!! Some fans will not get this and that is good for the Indians front office.

Re: Sorry, Uncle - Michael Bourn signs with Indians

Surprising that the Indians of all teams got Bourn and nobody else could? I hate the Indians more than any team and never want to see them succeed but this trade just makes them average at best instead of being awful. Their pitching still sucks

Re: Sorry, Uncle

Originally Posted by Reds/Flyers Fan

If Drew would have learned how to bunt and embrace that aspect of the game, he wouldn't be in this situation. He was too stubborn (STUBBorn) to change his approach. Now he finds himself off a World Series contender and his new also-ran team isn't even sure of him.

The entire Reds team was so inept at bunting last season that I don't think this was just Drew Stubbs' crossing his arms and deciding he wasn't going to do it. Maybe, just maybe - when the ENTIRE team is beyond bad at it - it's a coaching issue.

Stubbs is a tall, lanky guy with long arms. His body type alone is not conducive to a short swing and a small-ball approach. Yes, he is fast. But that trait alone is the beginning and end of his top-of-the-order ability.

Maybe instead of pigeon-holing him into a role he's ill-suited for, a team should take things he's already good at and maximize his value by putting him in a role that takes advantage of the things he's already good at.

Forcing Stubbs into a lead-off role is akin to acquiring Danny Ray Hererra and wondering why he just can't learn how to throw 95 MPH. Why is he so stubborn?!?!?

Originally Posted by BCubb2003

Don't worry. I'd say the game threads are about league average.

2013 Reds Record when I attend: 5-4
2012 Reds Record when I attend: 10-7

Re: Sorry, Uncle

Originally Posted by dougdirt

I really hate when I read things like this.

Stubbs did change his approach. A few times. Last year, his low OBP is a direct result of him changing his approach to what more people always wanted him to do (be more aggressive early in counts). It killed any offensive value he ever provided.

Stubbs is never going to be able to make contact like people want him to. He just isn't skilled enough. Could he bunt more? Maybe. But let's be honest here, how many extra hits was that going to net? 5?

Juan Pierre bunted 39 times last season. 17 went as sac bunts, 10 went as hits. So he hit .455 on bunts (10-22). Stubbs went 4-13 with 6 sac bunts. Bunting wasn't going to make him a truly better guy at the plate.

Then there's the part where if you do start bunting more, other team's advanced scouts take note of it and suddenly defenses are prepared for it - thus taking away its effectiveness.

I love the movie Major League but man - all you ever hear now when a fast guy come up is Lou Brown being recited from everyone everywhere - "A guy with his speed should hit it in the ground!!!!"

Originally Posted by BCubb2003

Don't worry. I'd say the game threads are about league average.

2013 Reds Record when I attend: 5-4
2012 Reds Record when I attend: 10-7

Re: Sorry, Uncle

Originally Posted by bucksfan2

I didn't get the feeling they tried all that hard to sign Choo. I thought it was one of those PR moves, we need to sign Choo but his agent is Boras and he will be too expensive. I do think they could have signed Choo to a similar Borne contract.
.

I guess we'll see at the end of this season, what Choo's asking price is.
I just heard several reports (prior to this year) that the Tribe was legitimately trying to extend him. I think if the price was only 12/year, they would've done it. Of course, no way to prove anything..

Thank you Walt and Bob for going for it in 2010-2014!

Nov. 13, 2007: One of the greatest days in Reds history: John Allen gets the boot!

Re: Sorry, Uncle - Michael Bourn signs with Indians

Originally Posted by Bill

The Indians traded Choo because they knew they could not sign him. It is as simple as that.

The Cleveland front office has greatly improved their team and the owners showed a willingness to spend which they have not before. At some point the fans tire of rebuild upon rebuild and you have to make some moves to improve the team on the field and draw the fans back and give the team a chance on the field.

That's fair, especially in light of what is going on in Houston and Miami. I know the Indians did not have an option with Choo other than letting him rot on the vine or try to cash in at the trade deadline. They likely have too far to be a contender, but they are at least interesting, spending some money, and incrementally improving their team with legit major leaguers.

Of course, one has to say "do a better job up front and you don't have the rebuild on the backend." This management team is still responsible for the condition of the organization.

Re: Sorry, Uncle - Michael Bourn signs with Indians

Originally Posted by RedFanAlways1966

Chance? GET PITCHING!! Some fans will not get this and that is good for the Indians front office.

They did get some pitching. Bauer could be a future TOR pitcher. Brett Myers was added. Carrasco returns from TJS and McCallister is set to improve on a promising rookie season. They will be better (not good but better) especially if Masterson or Jimenez bounces back.

One also has to realize that the tribe's farm system is empty except at the lower levels. The major league team was also lacking in true talent fielding AAAA and backup talent at several positions. Ownership had two options, continue to wait on a rebuild of the rebuild or spend some money to put a major league team on the field while waiting for the young talent to develop. No they are not going to make the playoffs, but I won't begrudge the ownership for finally spending some cash.

Re: Sorry, Uncle - Michael Bourn signs with Indians

Originally Posted by traderumor

That's fair, especially in light of what is going on in Houston and Miami. I know the Indians did not have an option with Choo other than letting him rot on the vine or try to cash in at the trade deadline. They likely have too far to be a contender, but they are at least interesting, spending some money, and incrementally improving their team with legit major leaguers.

Of course, one has to say "do a better job up front and you don't have the rebuild on the backend." This management team is still responsible for the condition of the organization.

Oh, certainly the management team in place have made a mess of things with poor drafts, poor trades of Lee and CC, and wasting cash on guys like Kotchman. Francona seems to have changed the mindset there, but I have little faith in their front office.

Re: Sorry, Uncle - Michael Bourn signs with Indians

Originally Posted by Maker_84

Surprising that the Indians of all teams got Bourn and nobody else could? I hate the Indians more than any team and never want to see them succeed but this trade just makes them average at best instead of being awful. Their pitching still sucks

Cleveland had advantage in that it was one of only 10 teams that didn't stand to lose a 1st round pick for signing Bourn. He'd probably be playing for the Mets or Mariners if it weren't for the draft pick compensation (and the Mets got really screwed because they were technically one of the 10 worst teams in MLB last season, but the Pirates bumped them back a slot with their compensation #9 pick for not signing Mark Appel).

Baseball isn't a magic trick ... it doesn't get spoiled if you figure out how it works. - gonelong

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