Posted:25th Apr 2010but in addition: RC - thanks for pointing out that I come across as passive aggressive (or biased)... there actually is as much "wrong" anywhere else on the planet - I notice that - and only because I have started quite a number of threads "targeting" the US it appears as if I'm turning a blind eye on this fact.

Actually I tried to balance it with here, but seem to again fail miserably...

My mother is American, so I may be injecting some emotion and bias of my own. I didn't grow up here but it's a terribly beautiful part of me that goes back 10,000 years.

I will agree that the US is a tempest and self-glorifying, but they are equally cynical of themselves. Have you not seen the Simpsons?(just one example of many) If I am not mistaken it doesn't get any more Americana.

I have found no evidence that you aren't ready to condemn the US. I'd like to understand the nature of your obsession. It has appeared as malevolence for lack of engagement or believing what you WANT to believe regardless of the facts.

Is it not 'self glorification' to point out the flaws of one society when all are as equally flawed. Is this meant to make one's society feel better about their own misdeeds?

I've had time to understand the American mind. They aren't as stupid as they act. I am chilled to the bone at how clever they are capable of being. They think in a context I wish I could, and when they choose to express it, I find I am moved into the most humbled part of my being.

The fact that you used the words 'passive aggressive' shows that you have given it consideration. I just believe balance is not achieved here.

I would suggest actually engaging someone. Learn to understand them. Why, is one hell of a way to encourage someone to look at the possibilities. I say encourage them to be less complacent about what's happening in the world. Ridicule only makes people angry and strengthens their resolve.

The Americans on HoP, for the most part, aren't your stereotypical, overly arrogant Americans. They are undeserving of this type of ridicule. They get it and would change America for the better, faster, if they could.

I wouldn't say that you have failed. I would say that you have done exactly what you set out to do.(Isn't English beautiful?)

Posted:26th Apr 2010RC, don't worry about him or his opinions, he has every right to have them and you have every right to determine their value! One reason why I personally departed for awhile (which I will do again at will in terms of the social forums on here) is because I refuse to attempt to rationalize with irrationality period nor am I willing to do be a part of any discussion that has no checks and balances, let alone a worthwhile purpose. The majority of SD is a bunch of liberal wonderland, hypothetical griping with a lack of realism so Americans you will get this post and you guys convinced me to come back so here it goes.

RC, I'm only hoping in to tell you and every other American on here why they are awesome. Yeah we're all pretty disgusted with our country, but when aren't we? If we weren't disgusted we'd be a bunch a bunch of lazy bums and a bunch of push overs, we're not because we're American so while these guys make it look like their lives are just wonderful with all their volunteering and happy, easy going lives they have to make threads like this because they can't even make a change in their own lives and build their own way because they were brought up in a system that equalizes everyone and provides for those who some don't deserve while charging everyone for it. I don't want that existence, it would make me depressed if I were oppressed by it and I'd write a bunch of schmack about a country that I wish I had their rights, freedom, and ability to determine my own destiny and status because they don't have the right to control these systems oppressing them in their own governments. I honestly feel that if FireTom were an American he would have a thick skin like us and he would have a plethora of the positive character traits that come along with making your way through through our proving ground, it's all good that he likes doing things his way because it is his life and he is the determiner of what works for him.

We're lucky that we have the Bill Of Rights, Civil Rights, and that "every man for themselves" way of life that keeps us striving to do well and survive. A lot of the people on here don't have the survival instincts that we do and if they don't need them that's fine, but us Americans who must have this will rise to challenges as needed and have the reflexes to raise the odds in our success. Being a Libertarian I believe our government is too big, ineffective, and that there is no such thing as a free lunch, plus the government needs to butt out of our private lives and know it's place, so is this country ideal yet for me? Absolutely not, but I will take it over European societal structure any day because outside of being in the right tribal culture or commune, there is nothing even close to what the USA was intended to be thus far.

I'll fight the good fight until we get this place where it needs to be, but until then, I'm more than happy to earn my own way, pay my dues, travel from state to state freely, settle where the laws and community structure best suits me *gets to move in October and has fingers crossed for something awesome*, understand that charity starts at home, and rock out with style because of my freedom of speech and freedom of expression. If anyone has a problem with my small amount of decadence (that I pay a great deal for in more ways than one) I work for it, I earned it, and they can get over it because that is one of the components of freedom. I feel horrible that other places don't have these freedoms, but America shouldn't be the world police/rebuilder for many important reasons. We are not perfect (no one is), we make mistakes, we work hard, we care a lot, and there is no opinion in this world that can take these things away from us. If we're foolish enough to listen to half witted criticisms coming from outsiders who don't see our daily grind, we deserve the implications that we allow. I'm not allowing it, it's everyone's choice to give credit or discredit or ambivalence to any incoming phenomena.

Yeah and anyone who wants to hold the majority of our citizens accountable for things they did not do (i.e. Government Decisions, whatever the UN/NATO demands of us, The Federal Reserve and the international stock exchange, etc. etc. etc...) they can get over it because only a few people made those decisions/mistakes, our land (the actual USA geographically) and our citizens, along with our state and local government officials have nothing to do with any of it. It just sounds foolish to blame America when you can ordinarily write the actual names on a piece of paper who made a dumb decision/law/bill.

They don't want to live like us and we don't want to live like them, it's perfectly fine and why we have so many countries and different societal constructs that we do on this planet. It's all good! Anyways, honestly the USA doesn't need "hope" and it doesn't matter if an outsider has it or not, we just need to ditch the complacency and rise to the occasion on a larger level than we regularly do. Treaties and ties to Europe started most of the harm that is still perpetuated today so those in glass house shouldn't throw stones, but we need to do out part for our own well being to rid ourselves of interventionalism and the blowback on all levels that it brings regardless of who got the ball rolling.

~Rock on!~

"As the pattern gets more intricate and subtle, being swept along is no longer enough"-Waking Life

EoN you've said it quite well, a lot better than what I originally planned on posting so we'll leave it at that. All I will say is that people see a person much differently than that person views himself.

Bonus points for anybody who doesn't edit their posts and sticks to what they've claimed....

"Are you sure it's safe to drink bleach?""Yes, bleach is 90% water, we are 90% water, therefore: we are bleach."-Nathan Explosion, Metalocalypse

Posted:26th Apr 2010FT: Walter Moers... I have seen a few of his political cartoons, but that is about it. I will watch your link when my friend Anja comes over later this week, some translation from a native would help.

What gives ME hope when looking at the US? I'm not sure hope is appropriate, I think their capacity for charity is astounding. Maybe one day there will be a thread about the world and why there is still hope

Bren: I can't believe you said it! I pissed myself through that entire flick! It was like the Simpsons on steroids. I can't wait for June when everyone is here, we can shoot guns and eat McDonalds, drink Coca Cola and talk about how the USA is number 1 and God's chosen country, LOL.

EoN: "Anyways, honestly the USA doesn't need "hope" and it doesn't matter if an outsider has it or not, we just need to ditch the complacency and rise to the occasion on a larger level than we regularly do." EXACTLY!

Posted:27th Apr 2010Originally Posted By: FireTomEoN - , your post was hurtful and inappropriate in my eyes... Not the first time you bash the out of someone who doesn't agree with you... that much for bigotry on your side.

I'm off to Koh PhaNgan ... nothing but pristine waters and beaches to spin poi on for the next 20 days... a Hammock, maybe some scuba diving, just enough party... some archery, yea... Muay Thai maybe.. and Yoga... sweatlodge... definitely... You? ......... naaaaaaaaa

You keep dwelling on your illusionary hardships and keep up the delusion that people envy you I for my part know when a rant is addressed to someone personally when I read it...

I don't hate the US(sians) - I don't even hate you...

Get over it and over yourself. Lulz Hypocrisy much? Compared to that illusion of a "lazy bum, spoiled rotten existence" you gave for your next 20 days in an exotic land I'm suffering more than you ever thought compared to you!

How is it you know a rant is addressed to you and no one else can seem to read your steadily edited posts and you're always misunderstood? You must be so much smarter than us dumb rednecks over here in the US of A! *bad hick accent*

You need to get your facts straight about the middle east and who bombed who into the stone age first (the Russians did it in the 70s taking Afghanistan right out of modern status for example, those mines are still blowing off limbs to this day over there from the USSR), plus that area has been at war steadily for over 5,000 years yet you want to focus on the wrongs America has done for 200? Do you know why people wanted to get the [censored] out of Europe??? That's really cute, you keep on doing what you do and I'll do what I do, but if you expect me to agree with you and consider my opinions bashing you're the one taking things personally and not looking at the objective reality of my social commentary.

Oh the parallels that come to light when the tables are turned, people in glass houses shouldn't throw stones!

I love http://www.classbrain.com/artteenst/publish/bill_of_rights.shtml remember to take these into account before talking schmack about America or to Americans, as it seems you think somehow if people don't agree with you we aren't entitled to them. And you're right, if I didn't break it with my 2 hands starting in 1981 when I was born, I'm not going to fix it just like I'd never ask you to fix anything you didn't do with your own two hands from the time you were born.

~Rock on!~

"As the pattern gets more intricate and subtle, being swept along is no longer enough"-Waking Life

Posted:27th Apr 2010Oh yeah, FireTom, every time you make a generalized statement holding America/Americans to be held accountable, stereotyped, or any other wrongful statement (When all of those other countries and individual citizens need to be accountable for their involvements, like relying on the American stock market for their own economies as an example because it was their own fault for doing it) I will post this quote because I said everything perfectly and completely the first time, sorry but it is the truth and how you interpret it is on you.

Originally Posted By: EpitomeOfNoviceYeah and anyone who wants to hold the majority of our citizens accountable for things they did not do (i.e. Government Decisions, whatever the UN/NATO demands of us, The Federal Reserve and the international stock exchange, etc. etc. etc...) they can get over it because only a few people made those decisions/mistakes, our land (the actual USA geographically) and our citizens, along with our state and local government officials have nothing to do with any of it. It just sounds foolish to blame America when you can ordinarily write the actual names on a piece of paper who made a dumb decision/law/bill.

Like I said I'm here strictly for American morale, not for anyone else on this topic. Anyways, do what you wish, live your life, speak your mind, and I will do the same because I believe in freedom for all.

~Rock on!~

"As the pattern gets more intricate and subtle, being swept along is no longer enough"-Waking Life

I advise to quit beating a dead horse, practice what you preach if you want respect or to be taken seriously, no one can have their way all the time, people in hell want ice water, and not to throw out opinions without anticipating potential opposition with some, lots, or no backing because an opinion is just an opinion...

But at the same time don't expect nor try to force my advice be taken as I value genuine responses that aren't coerced by any form of oppression because I love freedom for all people and above all integrity in communication.

~Rock on!~

"As the pattern gets more intricate and subtle, being swept along is no longer enough"-Waking Life

Posted:27th Apr 2010I still have hope for America because for every stupid Juggalo kid you see in white face paint, blasting Dark Carnival and pouring nasty Faygo all over his self, there are ten normal people ever ready to jump in and kick the crap out of that 'tard.

If foreign readers see this and ask in confusion what exactly a Juggalo is, count yourself lucky. COUNT YOUR SELF FREAKIN' LUCKY!

"Are you sure it's safe to drink bleach?""Yes, bleach is 90% water, we are 90% water, therefore: we are bleach."-Nathan Explosion, Metalocalypse

Posted:27th Apr 2010Originally Posted By: brenonfire413I still have hope for America because for every stupid Juggalo kid you see in white face paint, blasting Dark Carnival and pouring nasty Faygo all over his self, there are ten normal people ever ready to jump in and kick the crap out of that 'tard.

And many others from the various subcultures who would all come together in harmony to provide the pep-rally, videography, and logistics to turn it into a real shindig! *punchline stereotypical bad joke sound effect*

I know that ain't right, but I love to crack jokes!

I never lost or needed hope for America because the average citizens voice is never heard outside of their social groups and communities, only the crazy, criminal, or prestigious make it on the news so I watch it to be informed of the extremism and never consider it the general tone they claim polls back up (I wasn't polled, don't know anyone who was polled, so I know that's B.S.!!!). I meet more people that are down to earth and personable than those I don't just doing regular everyday tasks, I think that's great. I don't like the system, but the system is only a small part of our society that we all seem to complain about which in away allows us to have an empathic bond with one another and keeps us on our toes.

We just need a bit more balance and we'll be good!

~Rock on!~

"As the pattern gets more intricate and subtle, being swept along is no longer enough"-Waking Life

Honestly there are several groups calling themselves Tea Parties and the rallies vary by region and their organizers, along with it's full name (i.e. Tea Party Patriots vs. Tea Party Express) most locals know this by now especially when comparing regional coverage to cable news and national coverage.

~Rock on!~

"As the pattern gets more intricate and subtle, being swept along is no longer enough"-Waking Life

Posted:27th Apr 2010This whole thing is a trend. It's cool to hate America/Americans in the rest of the world. 99% of those people vomit out half ignorant falsehoods and love their iphones, but want desperately to cling to their programming. I for one am done with a fool's argument. It's the 21st century kidds time to work on more important things than how we can sit here and claim it's all Americas fault we've destroyed our planet and can't work together.

FireTom, please use your own thoughts and not mine. Our conversation about bigotry was in private out of politeness and respect for you, not so that you could spew more of your negativity out at anyone.

Posted:28th Apr 2010Ok guys - only because I've been addressed personally I do respond here. 2 days ago I was ready to take down each individual post and thread of mine one-by-one and delete my entire account... quite emotional reaction that would have been. Then again I remembered that HoP is not you alone...

Further I disabled PM's and request to keep all content public.

[RC] If you claim "ownership" on anything that you put out on the web then you need to put a copyright note attached. All my own content is public, creative commons or fair use and I do treat all content I find the same. Sorry if that led to disappointment but as previously explained I myself was quite disappointed by your approach myself. No hard feelings - it's a long road, as you said it yourself. [ed]"hating" America is not a trend... and if it were I wouldn't follow it... many people are simply waking up roughly and realize that their expectations in "the greatest democracy in the world" have been way too high... it's a little painful and borders in feeling deceived.

[EoN] I offer you an apology for having responded equally populist and returned your personal attacks. Thanks for being a teacher here. In the future I will call on the Mods immediately. I owe you no justification on how I finance my lifestyle, what I do on my holidays or what I form my opinions on. I have the same right as you to publish them, without having suffering personal reprisals from anyone and for what political motif ever.

[Rouge] The problem is that more Americans travel today, spend 2 days in Bangkok, a week in Patthaya, Phuket or PhaNgan, 3 days in Siem Rreap, 2 days in Kuala Lumpur and might truly believe that they have seen (and understood) S/E Asia. Not many realize that you have to spend considerable time to get a grasp on a culture. Some seem even to believe that Hitler is still alive.

[all] My problem is that indeed I have lost hope in the US because for every lovely person I do meet 5 or more wankers. Even here on the board I guess the last American who held opposing views and was still able to keep a discussion to facts over a lengthy period has been Patriarch... (and that's a long time ago).

Fact is that the US is one of (if not) THE biggest consumer(s) on the planet and as such creating a tremendous amount of suffering on the planet in regards of environmental impact and working conditions. I do observe some hardships first hand when traveling 3rd world countries or "emerging economies".

It might be painful to wake up from a sweet dream, but it might serve the greater good. But killing the messenger will not make the facts go away.

Please note that I DO NOT hold any individual American accountable for deeds committed not by themselves but their government, corporate management or military. I do raise awareness and that might be called "negative" - but it is honest at least.

I do challenge EVERYBODY here on this board to either prove that I post false allegations or act contrary to HoP posting guidelines (especially in regards to: "Is it the truth?") and to stick to HoP posting guidelines (especially in regards to: "Is it fair to all concerned?").

Thank you for showing me (once again) that fighting the devil by becoming the devil is unskillful and doesn't lead anywhere.

If you can't keep it up without personal attacks, just because it's the way you put it or because you have no arguments - be informed that from now on I will call on the mods immediately - and I do advise you to do the same... This is not about "thick skin" this is about "trolling".

I might create resentment by how I put things... but this resentment is YOUR personal decision and has little to do with me. I may simply act as the screen you project your own negativity on. I have created other, much more positive threads... most of them lying dormant in the archives. Why do you (continue to) post here and throw your negativity on me? only because I note some of the negative aspects of your country, government or culture...

If this already is "blasphemous" then I must say that you yourself don't hold much good about your own country.

At the end of the day there might be more good things about America than I myself and others have the chance to notice. You may/ not take this thread as an invitation to let us know.

Up to you to either shake or slap the hand offered for reconciliation from my side here on this board. As for my part it's an honest and sincere attempt. Up to you to stand up together as Americans, collectively show manners and how to deal with criticism gracefully. I consider myself having failed at this point miserably... EDITED_BY: FireTom (1272450548)EDIT_REASON: waving more bonus points

Posted:28th Apr 2010Originally Posted By: FireTom[Rouge] The problem is that more Americans travel today, spend 2 days in Bangkok, a week in Patthaya, Phuket or PhaNgan, 3 days in Siem Rreap, 2 days in Kuala Lumpur and might truly believe that they have seen (and understood) S/E Asia. Not many realize that you have to spend considerable time to get a grasp on a culture. Some seem even to believe that Hitler is still alive.

I completely agree. I've met may people from many nationalities who have had this view and I've had to bite my tongue (feels like to the point of bleeding!) when this has happened!

Similarly "I've been to Bucharest, I know everything about Romania!" or "I've been to Port Vila, I know everything about Vanuatu" or even worse "I love anime and Asahi, I know everything about Japan..." those people need a good smack IMHO.

But Hitler still alive? WTF, Mate?

i would have changed ***** to phallus, and claire to petey Petey

Rougie: but that's what I'm doing hereArnwyn: what letting me adjust myself in your room?..don't you dare quote that on HoP...

Posted:29th Apr 2010Perhaps from all this we can safely conclude that it is probably not a good idea to bring up discussions on hot topic issues like politics or religion, especially on internet forums. If people really are passionate about their beliefs, is it really necessary to start discussions that can so easily get out of hand in just a few posts? Some people may view it as a game, but others may take it very personally, or at least construct posts which can easily be misconstrued, especially with only text.

Everybody needs to find some common ground if situations as such to be resolved. Hey FireTom, do you like toast also? I hope so. It is warm and crispy and an excellent place to put jelly.

"Are you sure it's safe to drink bleach?""Yes, bleach is 90% water, we are 90% water, therefore: we are bleach."-Nathan Explosion, Metalocalypse

Posted:29th Apr 2010Originally Posted By: FireTom[EoN] I offer you an apology for having responded equally populist and returned your personal attacks. Thanks for being a teacher here. In the future I will call on the Mods immediately. I owe you no justification on how I finance my lifestyle, what I do on my holidays or what I form my opinions on. I have the same right as you to publish them, without having suffering personal reprisals from anyone and for what political motif ever.

You also have no right to judge how difficult my life is, how hard I must work, or my self worth. You don't have to justify your financial situation to me just as much as I don't have to justify my struggle to you. If you don't have to justify anything, I don't either! If you want to call in the Mods every time you see commentary about things you state to be true about yourself be my guest as I will use them in an attempt at getting a point across, but I will consider this a "terroristic" threat and I don't negotiate with anyone trying to intimidate me with threats.

That's not an apology and I'm not accepting a snide, illusion at smoothing things over sprinkled with attitude and scare tactics only a partially illiterate person with below average intelligence would confuse. I told you long ago to stop insulting my intelligence, but this takes the cake! When you learn to act in a manner in accord with being granted forgiveness like giving a sincere apology, you will get it, but that was more of a slap in the face than apology.

Quote:Fact is that the US is one of (if not) THE biggest consumer(s) on the planet and as such creating a tremendous amount of suffering on the planet in regards of environmental impact and working conditions. I do observe some hardships first hand when traveling 3rd world countries or "emerging economies".

It might be painful to wake up from a sweet dream, but it might serve the greater good. But killing the messenger will not make the facts go away.

These are not facts, it is not fair to all concerned, and is a very slanderous statement.

Quote:Please note that I DO NOT hold any individual American accountable for deeds committed not by themselves but their government, corporate management or military. I do raise awareness and that might be called "negative" - but it is honest at least.

I do challenge EVERYBODY here on this board to either prove that I post false allegations or act contrary to HoP posting guidelines (especially in regards to: "Is it the truth?") and to stick to HoP posting guidelines (especially in regards to: "Is it fair to all concerned?").

I'm military, my husband is in the military active duty and I sure as hell know neither one of us had anything to do with many problems you're referring to. If you want to bash those trying to uphold the constitution you go right ahead and not one single American will ever forget that. You're blaming us for things we didn't do and that is not in accord with the guidelines.

Quote:Thank you for showing me (once again) that fighting the devil by becoming the devil is unskillful and doesn't lead anywhere.

If you can't keep it up without personal attacks, just because it's the way you put it or because you have no arguments - be informed that from now on I will call on the mods immediately - and I do advise you to do the same... This is not about "thick skin" this is about "trolling".

I might create resentment by how I put things... but this resentment is YOUR personal decision and has little to do with me. I may simply act as the screen you project your own negativity on. I have created other, much more positive threads... most of them lying dormant in the archives. Why do you (continue to) post here and throw your negativity on me? only because I note some of the negative aspects of your country, government or culture...

You got nowhere because you are wrong, we are not the devil, and we did not start the "trolling". If you consider that or anything else a personal attack that is entirely on you and after this if you don't go straighten up and stop trying to be a dictator who doesn't have to follow his own rules or everyone who has any amount of common sense and decency won't waste the time we have wasted here because they will have history to make an informed decision of how you will conduct yourself.

Quote:If this already is "blasphemous" then I must say that you yourself don't hold much good about your own country.

This isn't blasphemous, it's just the most moronic bunch of B.S. I've seen displayed over a country and a society that even on a small societal scale has done nothing to you to warrant it. If you don't like America stay away from here, don't support our economy with the goods you buy, and live your life in a way where you aren't supporting/funding things you don't like as you do have the ability to do that.

Quote:At the end of the day there might be more good things about America than I myself and others have the chance to notice. You may/ not take this thread as an invitation to let us know.

Up to you to either shake or slap the hand offered for reconciliation from my side here on this board. As for my part it's an honest and sincere attempt. Up to you to stand up together as Americans, collectively show manners and how to deal with criticism gracefully. I consider myself having failed at this point miserably...

I stand up as an American and say you have a long way to go for me to take this as any attempt at reconciliation and if you want me to show "manners" or deal "gracefully" you have much to learn about the conduct that earns such a response. I'm sorry, but my respect is earned and not coerced. You have no problem judging, but you have a problem with being judged? Sorry the world doesn't work like that, everything goes both ways and what goes around comes around.

I'm not shaking or slapping your hand, I'm walking away because I've lost all hope in anything being accomplished here.

BTW, here in America I'm actually considered to be a reserved and rather entertaining character because we do have thick skins and the ability to suck it up, get over it, and speak our minds uncensored. I've never had many Americans offend me more than I've been offended here, but I'm not considering running away or judging individuals who aren't involved. I feel like the first American to take a stand here on HoP and I'm very happy that I'm not easily pressured because many others are, they would just buy into the threats of Mod-ing and hide out. Well not me, not now, not ever, hopefully the international elitism/condemnation can calm down so a broader demographic range won't be scared off the forums and diversify this community of people with a common hobby.

~Rock on!~

"As the pattern gets more intricate and subtle, being swept along is no longer enough"-Waking Life

Posted:29th Apr 2010Originally Posted By: Rouge DragonOriginally Posted By: FireTom[Rouge] The problem is that more Americans travel today, spend 2 days in Bangkok, a week in Patthaya, Phuket or PhaNgan, 3 days in Siem Rreap, 2 days in Kuala Lumpur and might truly believe that they have seen (and understood) S/E Asia. Not many realize that you have to spend considerable time to get a grasp on a culture. Some seem even to believe that Hitler is still alive.

I completely agree. I've met may people from many nationalities who have had this view and I've had to bite my tongue (feels like to the point of bleeding!) when this has happened!

Similarly "I've been to Bucharest, I know everything about Romania!" or "I've been to Port Vila, I know everything about Vanuatu" or even worse "I love anime and Asahi, I know everything about Japan..." those people need a good smack IMHO.

But Hitler still alive? WTF, Mate?

Hmmm, than perhaps two non-Americans should listen to what they have just said and "know their rank" as we call it here? If you non-Americans believe in equality and all like you say, a fair playing field is a fair playing field am I not correct?

You two don't know American culture yet you talk like you do more so than actual Americans... Anyone else smell hypocrisy? I don't go around saying "I hate non-Americans because of what I see on TV, learned in world history, and how people on a web forum behave" because that's just ridiculous and ignorant to say.

~Rock on!~

"As the pattern gets more intricate and subtle, being swept along is no longer enough"-Waking Life

Posted:29th Apr 2010Originally Posted By: brenonfire413Perhaps from all this we can safely conclude that it is probably not a good idea to bring up discussions on hot topic issues like politics or religion, especially on internet forums. If people really are passionate about their beliefs, is it really necessary to start discussions that can so easily get out of hand in just a few posts? Some people may view it as a game, but others may take it very personally, or at least construct posts which can easily be misconstrued, especially with only text.

Everybody needs to find some common ground if situations as such to be resolved. Hey FireTom, do you like toast also? I hope so. It is warm and crispy and an excellent place to put jelly.

Wise words..

You once stated that you noticed that this community used to be larger, and it was, much larger. IMO it could handle hot topic discussions at that time but sadly, this is no longer the case.

There;s forums out there that are specifically dedicated to this type of discussion, where you sign knowing it's a game and knowing what you're getting yourself into.

If HoP wants to maintain the happy skipping hippy image, it might do well to shut down SD and keep the focus on these arts. (and chat)

I'm a member of 4 political debate forums and I'm pretty use to the hot, hot heat only having mods being called in for inappropriate links. I've never seen anything quite like this personally and I'm more restrained here than I am anywhere, but the point of a political forum is the art of debate (which involves winning and conceding). People who aren't willing to take the heat just don't throw it out there from the start.

I did take a break from here because political debates on my other forums and activist activities within my party and other organizations is much more fruitful in terms of real advancement. Much of the content on here like repeated editing, threatening to tattle-tale, and such isn't tolerated as you know just what you got yourself into by getting involved from the get go.

I agreed with SD being a conflict of interest to the guidelines long ago, but that is not my call to make. When I see someone go into something political or heated in terms of issues, I think they know what is potentially eminent in terms of potential responses, but that doesn't seem to be the case.

In the end I agree with you and Bren both because there are certain discussions where you know this is coming a mile away (anything thing serious people feel strongly about to be exact).

~Rock on!~

"As the pattern gets more intricate and subtle, being swept along is no longer enough"-Waking Life

Posted:29th Apr 2010Originally Posted By: EpitomeOfNoviceHmmm, than perhaps two non-Americans should listen to what they have just said and "know their rank" as we call it here? If you non-Americans believe in equality and all like you say, a fair playing field is a fair playing field am I not correct?

You two don't know American culture yet you talk like you do more so than actual Americans... Anyone else smell hypocrisy? I don't go around saying "I hate non-Americans because of what I see on TV, learned in world history, and how people on a web forum behave" because that's just ridiculous and ignorant to say.

Um, you do realise that my posts have actually been supporting the US??EDITED_BY: Rouge Dragon (1272497773)EDIT_REASON: make more succinct

i would have changed ***** to phallus, and claire to petey Petey

Rougie: but that's what I'm doing hereArnwyn: what letting me adjust myself in your room?..don't you dare quote that on HoP...

Posted:29th Apr 2010Originally Posted By: Rouge Dragon Um, you do realise that my posts have actually been supporting the US??

Sorry about that, like always with text it's very hard to tell there with the analogies used. Honestly, I do much better interpreting things I hear/see when comparisons come into play. My bad!

Although for the record I'd like to just throw it out there that your comparisons were hard for me to grasp which side you were on, the analogies used for positive and negative were two vast extremes of circumstance in each one. You also said you agreed with FireTom and to my knowledge (which could be entirely incorrect that a person must spend a great deal of time anywhere to understand it which you both have not in America, hence my comment. I'm only speaking of the US because I've lived here my whole life in different parts and have traveled to almost every state, so I thought with both of your agreements on needing to spend much time to draw a conclusion perhaps nothing should be said if that is how you really feel. *shrugs*

Have you ever been over here at all and if so what part? I think how much we vary by state and region makes us hard to peg into any concise cultural stereotype as a nation at all. LOL

*emoticons are broken so, [insert expression of "so deep, but it can make me dense" right here]*

Hopefully you can see my conclusion and why I made the statement.EDITED_BY: EpitomeOfNovice (1272501558)EDIT_REASON: needed to explain more because I was like "really???" and wanted to get down to understanding

~Rock on!~

"As the pattern gets more intricate and subtle, being swept along is no longer enough"-Waking Life

Posted:29th Apr 2010My agreement with Tom was about how I don't believe that people can know or understand a region or country from just visiting a very small (and usually very touristy) part of it. It's an annoying habit that I've heard from many nationalities; stressing "many nationalities" which was my original wording.

Nowhere did I claim to understand America. I simply said that I acknowledge that not everyone is like the negative stereotypes and that there are people who aren't like that at all. And because of their existence, I believe that there is "hope" - which was the original topic. It was my way of saying "look, people need to stop focusing on the bad stuff that comes out of the US and see that there's good stuff going on as well."

i would have changed ***** to phallus, and claire to petey Petey

Rougie: but that's what I'm doing hereArnwyn: what letting me adjust myself in your room?..don't you dare quote that on HoP...

Posted:30th Apr 2010Originally Posted By: EpitomeOfNoviceYou also have no right to judge how difficult my life is, how hard I must work, or my self worth. You don't have to justify your financial situation to me just as much as I don't have to justify my struggle to you. If you don't have to justify anything, I don't either!

This is what I'm saying... We don't owe each other justification for each others way of life, job, spiritual or political views... Both of us have the right to express our opinions.

So if I have an opinion about the US - would you please stop attacking me personally for it? And where did I judge you?

Originally Posted By: EoNIf you want to call in the Mods every time you see commentary about things you state to be true about yourself be my guest as I will use them in an attempt at getting a point across, but I will consider this a "terroristic" threat and I don't negotiate with anyone trying to intimidate me with threats.

now I become a terrorist because I want to come back to a factual discussion rather than a tit-for-tat between the two of us and would rather use moderation than continuing to face your attacks?

Originally Posted By: EoNThat's not an apology and I'm not accepting a snide, illusion at smoothing things over sprinkled with attitude and scare tactics only a partially illiterate person with below average intelligence would confuse. I told you long ago to stop insulting my intelligence, but this takes the cake! When you learn to act in a manner in accord with being granted forgiveness like giving a sincere apology, you will get it, but that was more of a slap in the face than apology.

That's what you're reading out of it.

Originally Posted By: EoNOriginally Posted By: FTFact is that the US is one of (if not) THE biggest consumer(s) on the planet and as such creating a tremendous amount of suffering on the planet in regards of environmental impact and working conditions. I do observe some hardships first hand when traveling 3rd world countries or "emerging economies".

These are not facts, it is not fair to all concerned, and is a very slanderous statement.

FTD statistics on the actual US trade deficit

walmart watch on the production in China

Greenpeace on US climate bill

If you like to receive more, I will dig deeper.

Originally Posted By: EoNOriginally Posted By: FTPlease note that I DO NOT hold any individual American accountable for deeds committed not by themselves but their government, corporate management or military. I do raise awareness and that might be called "negative" - but it is honest at least.

I'm military, my husband is in the military active duty and I sure as hell know neither one of us had anything to do with many problems you're referring to. If you want to bash those trying to uphold the constitution you go right ahead and not one single American will ever forget that. You're blaming us for things we didn't do and that is not in accord with the guidelines.

As I said: I do neither hold you nor your husband accountable for the actions of your government, other members of the military, corporate decisions etc... Where do you find me bashing YOU for it?

Originally Posted By: EoNYou got nowhere because you are wrong, we are not the devil, and we did not start the "trolling". If you consider that or anything else a personal attack that is entirely on you and after this if you don't go straighten up and stop trying to be a dictator who doesn't have to follow his own rules or everyone who has any amount of common sense and decency won't waste the time we have wasted here because they will have history to make an informed decision of how you will conduct yourself.

- Who is "we" that you are referring to?

I don't claim to be "right" I simply state it the way it appears to me. It's an opinion... and the title of this thread is "USofA - why there is still hope". I did post links to individuals (like Brandon Neely) who I find extremely courageous and who give me hope. Institutions as "wikileak" whose members face extreme hardship uncovering confidential material, etc.

Originally Posted By: EoNThis isn't blasphemous, it's just the most moronic bunch of B.S. I've seen displayed over a country and a society that even on a small societal scale has done nothing to you to warrant it. If you don't like America stay away from here, don't support our economy with the goods you buy, and live your life in a way where you aren't supporting/funding things you don't like as you do have the ability to do that.

fair to all concerned and building better friendships, are you?

Originally Posted By: EoNOriginally Posted By: FTAt the end of the day there might be more good things about America than I myself and others have the chance to notice. You may/ not take this thread as an invitation to let us know.

Up to you to either shake or slap the hand offered for reconciliation from my side here on this board. As for my part it's an honest and sincere attempt. Up to you to stand up together as Americans, collectively show manners and how to deal with criticism gracefully. I consider myself having failed at this point miserably...

I stand up as an American and say you have a long way to go for me to take this as any attempt at reconciliation and if you want me to show "manners" or deal "gracefully" you have much to learn about the conduct that earns such a response. I'm sorry, but my respect is earned and not coerced. You have no problem judging, but you have a problem with being judged? Sorry the world doesn't work like that, everything goes both ways and what goes around comes around.

I'm not shaking or slapping your hand, I'm walking away because I've lost all hope in anything being accomplished here.

BTW, here in America I'm actually considered to be a reserved and rather entertaining character because we do have thick skins and the ability to suck it up, get over it, and speak our minds uncensored. I've never had many Americans offend me more than I've been offended here, but I'm not considering running away or judging individuals who aren't involved. I feel like the first American to take a stand here on HoP and I'm very happy that I'm not easily pressured because many others are, they would just buy into the threats of Mod-ing and hide out. Well not me, not now, not ever, hopefully the international elitism/condemnation can calm down so a broader demographic range won't be scared off the forums and diversify this community of people with a common hobby.

There is a fine red line between speaking things frank and outright insulting someone. You crossed that line a few times (IMNSHO).

In Germany (at least) we do have a culture of criticism, especially towards our government and culture... I understand that it might breed resentment if an outsider says something (that might not fully sync with our own views)... Some people might even react the way you do. I've been through some issues with other Americans before here on HoP - and this far I have always accepted and offered apologies when things got too far.

You may just be in full resentment mode because actually I have not stated anything derogatory about Americans as a whole. The story about "does Hitler still rule Germany" actually happened to one member here in this board and a personal friend who got asked this question in a student exchange program.

I have pointed out certain political and economical issues - why are you taking offense and feel personally insulted? I did post the vids of Wikileak regarding a massacre in Baghdad, Brandon Neely's reconciliation efforts with ex-Guantanamo inmates.. these are facts. Where do you find me

- condemning Americans as a whole- offending YOU personally?

[PS: I can edit my posts for multiple reasons, without owing anyone justification. Reasons can be that a [quote] or other [] symbol has not worked properly, that I misspelled something or (upon rereading) noted that my wording could easily be misunderstood (English only second lingo)... if you're directly referring to what I have said you may use [quote] if you have the suspicion that I change my posts AFTER you responded to them...[/ed]EDITED_BY: FireTom (1272546089)EDIT_REASON: [quote] and PS