Irving v. Lipstadt

Transcripts

My Lord, what I have given your Lordship in this 1how far the entry has been redacted, if at all, in RW---- 2MR JUSTICE GRAY: Let us move on with it. 3MR IRVING: Would you just run your eye down those two pages 4which I have given you? 5A.
[Dr Hajo Funke]
Yes. 6Q.
[Mr Irving]
Beginning with the first page, page 11, the second 7paragraph? 8A.
[Dr Hajo Funke]
Yes. 9Q.
[Mr Irving]
Beginning with the phrase: "The audience stormed out into 10the streets"? 11A.
[Dr Hajo Funke]
Right. 12Q.
[Mr Irving]
"Taking about half an hour to assemble outside, I remained 13inside", does it say that? 14A.
[Dr Hajo Funke]
Yes. 15Q.
[Mr Irving]
How could I have joined a demonstration if I remained 16inside? 17A.
[Dr Hajo Funke]
Look ---- 18Q.
[Mr Irving]
Selling books, pack ---- 19A.
[Dr Hajo Funke]
--- look further down to your own diary. 20Q.
[Mr Irving]
Then it says: "Job finished. The driver suggested he 21drive me to the Hotel Dreilogen? 22A.
[Dr Hajo Funke]
Yes. 23Q.
[Mr Irving]
"Via the route", in other words, "driving by the route 24taken by this spontaneous demonstration"? 25A.
[Dr Hajo Funke]
Yes. 26Q.
[Mr Irving]
So I was not part of the demonstration; I was driving past

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1it to see what the fuss was because there had been police 2flashing lights, and so on? Right? 3A.
[Dr Hajo Funke]
I see it. 4Q.
[Mr Irving]
"I got out of the car" -- this is four lines from the 5bottom "because I sighted my dinner guests. Crossed to 6say hello to them. There was some annoyance on the part 7of the demonstrators that I had not been with them". Did 8you see that? Why did you not quote that? 9A.
[Dr Hajo Funke]
Right, right. 10Q.
[Mr Irving]
I was not part of the demonstration. I do not really 11want, unless you wish to draw attention to any other parts 12of that diary entry? 13MR JUSTICE GRAY: I suspect he wants to read on to the bottom 14of the page, is that right? 15A.
[Dr Hajo Funke]
Shall I read it to the court? 16Q.
[Mr Irving]
No. Read the bits of it that you rely on. 17MR IRVING: Yes. 18A.
[Dr Hajo Funke]
So, "I sighted Uschi who had invited me to dinner. Got 19out of car after Daniel Hecht", I think, "crossed to say 20hello to them. Some annoyance on the 250's part that 21I had not been with them. I explained I had to pack 22things up. Two minutes later police trucks arrived with 23reinforcements. Announced over loud speakers, 'Dieses ist 24ein angemieldete Sammlung, es ist verbotten. Sie haben 25alle nach Hausen zugehen'". "This is an illegal 26demonstration". I can translate it shortly. If you want

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1it precise, do it, yes. 2THE INTERPRETER: "This is a translation (sic) which no notice 3has been given of. It is forbidden. You are all 4requested to go home"? 5A.
[Dr Hajo Funke]
Right. And I refer to this being "forbidden" in my 6report ---- 7THE INTERPRETER: Ordered to go home? 8A.
[Dr Hajo Funke]
--- or words to that effect. 9Q.
[Mr Irving]
Can I ask? 10A.
[Dr Hajo Funke]
He adds, so then: "Road cordons were thrown across the 11street ahead of us and we were told to filter through 12single and disperse. I found myself in an embarrassing 13position, unwilling to desert audience, but equally 14unwilling to end up being coshed by a policeman". 15Q.
[Mr Irving]
Coshed by a policeman? 16A.
[Dr Hajo Funke]
Yes. "I filtered forwards and after minutes hold up I was 17allowed through by the cordons. 30 seconds later I was 18arrested by a small Italian-looking moustached police 19officer aged perhaps 35 who declared me to be a 20versammlungsleiter". 21Q.
[Mr Irving]
We do not need the rest. 22A.
[Dr Hajo Funke]
This is the point. If you take this part and see the 23video, there is the moustached and so forth officer and 24you see before, you know, a march route of a given 25people. In the front Mr Irving, behind Michael Kuhnen. 26So, of course, it was some minutes, but you were asked by

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1the crowd to enter and you did. 2MR IRVING: You say some minutes. Can I ask you about the 3time-scale? 4A.
[Dr Hajo Funke]
I do not know the time-scale. I just saw the video and 5I saw your diary and I saw another clip of Althans given 6to Zundel or by Zundel presenting the case further down in 7this document. 8Q.
[Mr Irving]
Can I draw your attention to the second line of that 9second paragraph on page 11: "I remained inside selling 10the books, packaging them up and supervising their loading 11into the two cars". How long do you think that took? 12A.
[Dr Hajo Funke]
I do not know. 13Q.
[Mr Irving]
£2,000 worth of books had to be packaged into boxes, the 14boxes sealed, loaded into two cars -- three quarters of an 15hour, an hour? 16A.
[Dr Hajo Funke]
I have no problem with that. I did not say you went all 17along, I do not know, maybe. There is, by the way, if 18I may add this, there is a longer version of this video, 19and if it is necessary, if this is a decisive point for 20the assessment, if I may add ---- 21MR JUSTICE GRAY: It does not strike me as a decisive point. I 22think we can move on. 23A.
[Dr Hajo Funke]
Then I would ask to get this to the court, but it is very 24difficult because it is in the hands of Michael Schmidt 25and I have to figure out where he is. 26MR JUSTICE GRAY: I know what the issue is.

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1MR IRVING: One more question and this is will you accept, 2because I asked you this question two or three times 3yesterday, the video shows clearly that these rather 4bestraggled demonstrators are actually returning from the 5demonstration they had been off to at the time I joined 6them and they are heading north ---- 7A.
[Dr Hajo Funke]
That does not fit. 8Q.
[Mr Irving]
Excuse me, they are heading north at the time I joined 9them, in other words, it is all over -- and do you 10remember me asking you these questions yesterday? 11A.
[Dr Hajo Funke]
Yes. 12Q.
[Mr Irving]
And you made out that you could not recognize the victory 13monument behind them and so on? 14A.
[Dr Hajo Funke]
There is no probability for that. You know, it fits so 15well with what you are writing in the diary and what is 16shown in the video that I cannot say "yes" to this 17question. 18Q.
[Mr Irving]
So you do not accept that it took me one hour to load the 19boxes of books into the car and to drive off to the hotel 20and then come back and find the demonstrators walking back 21from their demonstration at this time this misfortune 22happened? 23A.
[Dr Hajo Funke]
I mean, you had a lot of books to sell, but you need not 24an hour. I do not know how long it took. 25Q.
[Mr Irving]
Very well. Would you now just have a brief look at 26photographs, please? The second bundle of photographs.