If this is your first visit, be sure to
check out the FAQ by clicking the
link above. You may have to register
before you can post: click the register link above to proceed. To start viewing messages,
select the forum that you want to visit from the selection below.

(By the way I am lousy at throwing anything. The first time I threw a dumbbell it hit me on the head.)

- that did make me laugh...

If your dog is doing something you don't want you have to think about what you're doing that might be encouraging it...

Susan Garrett suggests working "the reinforcement zone" ie heel position - by tapping the treat reward to your hip or knee - then handing it over... my dog sees the hand with the treat coming down and automatically reaches for it - and yes I've been guilty of rewarding that. If I hold off - she will face where she's going - because I've tried to reward that some too - ie a dog that's looking where she's going gets the treat but the dog looking at the treat hand does not. Neither does the dog that ooches around in front of me when we're heeling.

She does follow my hands a lot and there are many games that SG plays using the food as distractions - and rewarding the dog for not being distracted by the food - which is tricky... but worth it when you can put an open cup of food next to your training area and not have the dog leave to steal food. Works best where there aren't other dogs "helping".

mouthy dogs are generally pushy dogs. and i like that in a certain sort of dog.
i offer a suggestion of wearing fishing gloves, made of metal mesh on outside, so it doesnt hurt you, then and only then, are you strong enough to train 'gentle' using closed fist around food, till dog is where you want him, in position.

I too have treated/rewarded out of sink, and have the end product dog behaviours to prove it lol.

The closed fist/open fist, dog decides training is excellent, but only if you can stand the pain it causes.
But the ability to withstand the savaging of hands, whilst you clamp tight for the first time, is a great experience. The bastard cant get you now feeling is awesome. So empowering, and from there, they get 'gentle' so fast, as you can keep still in the face of being savaged by the hungry monster on your left lol

Gawd... if the dog chomps on my fist - I take it away... same if the dog barks too much.

Ie there are several levels of reward. Most dogs cope with viewing the treat as reward enough to learn something. But some dogs, putting the hand away is also necessary - so the closed fist around treat is a reward compared to being left alone to contemplate whether barking (or biting) was a good idea.

I sometimes push the hand that's being chomped towards the back of the dog's throat - ever so gently but that's easier to do with a flat open hand or my arm than a fist. And doesn't work so well if the dog decides on hit and run tactics.

Hi
My opening post was asking whether dogs in general, away from training, are more mouthy when they expect a treat from a hand, meaning not only my hand but visitors' hands, more so than dogs who do not expect hands to give them treats.
I was also wondering about how to treat. I read somewhere that you hold out your hand with a closed fist and only let the dog have the treat when it has stopped nuzzling for it, and then you turn your hand over and give it from your palm. I think Beloz's idea about then giving it from your other hand is interesting and worth a try.

My dog was mouthy when I first got her at five months of age. It is something I have never really got on top of. When I first started heeling off lead I used to walk with a straight arm and she would follow my hand. These days I fold my arm and it works just as well because she looks up at my hand. In hindsight perhaps I shouldn't have done it that way. She is now almost six and I have retired from trialling, so it's not really important. I just train for fun and to stop her getting bored because she is a very clever little girl.

The answer is no. My dogs are all very high drive working bred dogs. My cattle dogs would be a mouthy as all get out if they had been allowed to be. I mark and the treat is delivered instantly, no mucking around with closed fists. I taught them early to take treats without being too sharky, it was a foundation exercise of mine.

I can carry 5 or 6 treats in my hand when training but they focus on the task in hand because they know if they dont there will be no treat. I can also train without holding treats, and treat after they have finsihed a sequence. With heeling I would reward for the dog looking at me, not the treat. I shaped this behaviour. My dogs never look at the treat because they are too busy working out what behaviour they need to do to earn the treat.

When I am finished training I say all done and thoughts of treats are gone. They associate treats strictly with training and not with everyday life. I make the lines very clear to my dogs and try and be super consistent.

I guess there is a reason why you are retiring your dog at nearly 6? - should be in the prime of her life at that age especially for obedience. I started my first agility dog at age 6 and she absolutely loved it for a number of years. She is now 13 and although retired is still as fit and full on as ever.

My hardest problem with the drop on recall - is getting distance - she likes to drop within treat handing distance. So if the treats are coming from the box over there, that kind of defeats that purpose for her. And I have to stop rewarding the late drops. And the slow drops. Reward the fast drops - "in position" ie place the treat low so the dog doesn't have to move out of the drop to get it, and is closer to getting it - by being in the drop.

I get distance by slow increments and reinforce heavily. I found that the initial free shaping exercise I did with my dogs causes them to very focussed on the behaviour rather than the treat. I also encourage them to try behaviours that involve moving away from me at speed like running for a target or wrapping around a pole etc. This really helps them to become behaviour focussed and they seem to really enjoy it and helps them to do things fast.

I can drop my dogs from a great distance now. I shout "lie down" on a walk and they all hit the deck. I might add that I dont give them a treat in those situations but I praise them. I also expect my dogs to drop on command when working sheep. My obedience trained dog will drop on a hand signal from any distance.

The answer is no. My dogs are all very high drive working bred dogs. My cattle dogs would be a mouthy as all get out if they had been allowed to be. I mark and the treat is delivered instantly, no mucking around with closed fists. I taught them early to take treats without being too sharky, it was a foundation exercise of mine.

I can carry 5 or 6 treats in my hand when training but they focus on the task in hand because they know if they dont there will be no treat. I can also train without holding treats, and treat after they have finsihed a sequence. With heeling I would reward for the dog looking at me, not the treat. I shaped this behaviour. My dogs never look at the treat because they are too busy working out what behaviour they need to do to earn the treat.

When I am finished training I say all done and thoughts of treats are gone. They associate treats strictly with training and not with everyday life. I make the lines very clear to my dogs and try and be super consistent.

I guess there is a reason why you are retiring your dog at nearly 6? - should be in the prime of her life at that age especially for obedience. I started my first agility dog at age 6 and she absolutely loved it for a number of years. She is now 13 and although retired is still as fit and full on as ever.

Actually Kalacreek I retired my dog a few years ago. She had two titles before she was two and was doing well in Open, but unfortunately her handler was not up to it. Her last CD pass was 196. I will be 70 tomorrow. I have problems with balance especially with figures of eight and I have problems with hearing especially when I have my back to the judge as in walking out for the recall. I am proud of my achievement. She is the fourth dog I have trialled successfully but obviously I was never as competent as you seem to be.

By the way I don't remember my earlier dogs being mouthy, but they were boxers and I had them as young pups. Perhaps the different breed or perhaps I am just too old and slow. Her mouthiness is mainly licking my hand which I like to think is affectionate and I have appreciated it, but some other people don't, and hence my opening post.

Sorry if my last post comes across as being prickly and obviously Kalacreek has put some time and thought into his/her post. I am very anxious about turing 70 and I am just concerned for my dog's future. She is really a gorgeous little dog who is not a working dog or your typical obedience dog; she actually looks like hairy maclary. I want her to be safe and if she were less mouthy it might help.

Actually Kalacreek I retired my dog a few years ago. She had two titles before she was two and was doing well in Open, but unfortunately her handler was not up to it. Her last CD pass was 196. I will be 70 tomorrow. I have problems with balance especially with figures of eight and I have problems with hearing especially when I have my back to the judge as in walking out for the recall. I am proud of my achievement. She is the fourth dog I have trialled successfully but obviously I was never as competent as you seem to be.

By the way I don't remember my earlier dogs being mouthy, but they were boxers and I had them as young pups. Perhaps the different breed or perhaps I am just too old and slow. Her mouthiness is mainly licking my hand which I like to think is affectionate and I have appreciated it, but some other people don't, and hence my opening post.

That is a great achievement. I got one of my dogs to CD but my main love is agility and herding so concentrate on that. I always thought obedience was the hardest dog sport so to get to open is fantastic. SO I would say you are probably very competent LOL. I have spent a lot of time on theory and practice after having a genetically extremely behaviourally challenged dog once and it has stood me in good stead for my future dogs and troubleshooting. LOL. So just trying to help.

Actually Kalacreek I retired my dog a few years ago. She had two titles before she was two and was doing well in Open, but unfortunately her handler was not up to it. Her last CD pass was 196. I will be 70 tomorrow. I have problems with balance especially with figures of eight and I have problems with hearing especially when I have my back to the judge as in walking out for the recall. I am proud of my achievement. She is the fourth dog I have trialled successfully but obviously I was never as competent as you seem to be.

By the way I don't remember my earlier dogs being mouthy, but they were boxers and I had them as young pups. Perhaps the different breed or perhaps I am just too old and slow. Her mouthiness is mainly licking my hand which I like to think is affectionate and I have appreciated it, but some other people don't, and hence my opening post.

If you appreciate it and dont mind and she doesnt do it to other people I wouldnt worry so much. If you want to change it you might need to go right back to basics which is what I sometimes have to do with my dogs. Getting older is always a challenge for all of us as is worrying about our dogs.

Just a thought - have you thought about trying Rally obedience? I have given it a try with my obedience trained dog and it is fun. The judge sets the course which comprises of a number of stations and leaves you to your devices to complete it in your own time. You can talk to your dog and it is less formal than obedience.