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Re: Selling sex legally in New Zealand

Originally Posted by winston53660

If demand goes up why would they make less money? Unless you think the number of women going into prostitution goes up asymmetrically to the demand.

It's economics. Legalization makes it more accessible, more easily obtainable, and more people are able to partake in the industry without threat of legal hassle. Unfortunately the taboo stigma holds legal or not. Thus, the increased demand quickly outpaces the amount of voluntary sex workers. You'd think that would make the prostitutes more money but what seems to inevitably happen is that sex workers are then imported - from around the world- to the pockets where it is legal. The competition factor then forces the distributor to have a more competitive product - which in the world of prostitution means younger girls. That's when you get into greedy types partaking in coercion and sometimes outright trafficking of young girls from impoverished nations for exportation to the nations where prostitution is legal. Then the government is responsible for sorting out the mess and figuring a way to somehow protect these women and free them from slavery and horrible working conditions.

Amsterdam did not become "more safe" with legalization. Quite the opposite. Criminal activity did not decrease, it increased. Thus, now they're closing brothels down and trying to figure out how to back peddle and get rid of their adult entertainment playground status and sexual tourism.

Re: Selling sex legally in New Zealand

Anytime you have a health risk, you generally are regulated by the government in some sort of fashion.

Even fast food restaurants are regulated, so does that mean they should be illegal as well?

But should sex be regulated? Do you want the government in your bedroom or out of it? Should the government be in the business of deciding how to make adult sexual playgrounds safe? Can adult sexual playgrounds ever be safe?

Re: Selling sex legally in New Zealand

You said sexual intimacy shouldn't be cheapened by monetary transactions. I'm wondering why you think we need the government to maintain the dignity of other people's sexual encounters.

Because by making prostitution a legal business you are in effect bringing the government in. It then becomes the governments problem to make sure the working conditions are not violating human rights. When sex becomes a commodity, a business, it falls under labor rights and the government is forced to regulate the bed.

It's a figure of speech. You need not concern yourself with the personal decisions of two consenting adults, nor should you oblige the government to concern itself on your behalf. Like I said, you need to mind your own business and stay out of other people's lives.

So again, you too want the government in the bedroom and out of it simultaneously. You want your sex private but also a business. You want your women to be "consenting adults in a private sex act" while also wanting the government to make some sexual acts fall under labor and business categories. How does that make any kind of sense???

Or do you just want the right to pay for sex without being arrested and so selfish is your desire for that right that you care not about the Pandora's box this opens?

Re: Selling sex legally in New Zealand

Originally Posted by talloulou

Because by making prostitution a legal business you are in effect bringing the government in. It then becomes the governments problem to make sure the working conditions are not violating human rights. When sex becomes a commodity, a business, it falls under labor rights and the government is forced to regulate the bed.

And by making it illegal the government isn't getting involved? I don't think they will be forced to regulate the bed, but rather the standard working conditions as they would with any other job in the country.

Re: Selling sex legally in New Zealand

Originally Posted by talloulou

Ok so what is the argument for making prostitution legal RIV? You know women will make less money prostituting when it's legal. You know demand will increase. You understand the side effects and the human trafficking that tends to go along with legalization.

I don't think demand will increase. If it does, it won't be much. At least not in the long run. I do think that some prostitutes will make less money since it will be a service easier to come by. But that's not the issue.

I understand that with any legal activity there are going to be those who exploit it and do illegal things. I understand there is and will always be a black market for thing that are both legal and illegal. The fact that there are criminals out there engaging in criminal activity that most don't agree with is no reason to keep or make perfectly legitimate transactions illegal. You're making the same argument people make about having gambling legal in certain areas. I no more agree with keeping gambling illegal throughout most of the country than I agree with keeping prostitution illegal throughout most of the country. Criminals are going to do criminal things, and we should do our due diligence to limit their effectiveness. That doesn't mean we should curtail the rights and freedoms of decent people in the process. OBVIOUSLY keeping prostitution illegal doesn't stop people from forcing women into slavery, now does it? Just like gun laws don't stop criminals from using guns. The root of the problem is NOT the legality of the profession, it's something else entirely.

You point out the Netherlands as a failed experiment, and perhaps they are. But we should use them as an example of what NOT to do. That doesn't mean that we should keep prostitution illegal just because they ****ed it all up. It means we should do BETTER at it when we legalize it ourselves. It means should look closely at what they did do wrong, and try not to repeat their mistakes. It doesn't mean that legal prostitution will fail. It means it will fail if carried out in the manner THEY did it.

Can you really state simultaneously that prostitution is a respectable sexual agreement between two consenting adults while also arguing that the government now needs to get involved in legalizing it, regulating it, and providing safety for the women? Why do the women require safety? Why are they consenting to putting themselves in an unsafe position in the first place?

Yes, I can state that simultaneously. Most everything we do is regulated to some degree. I may not agree with all the regulations, mind you, but I recognize that some are necessary. Consenting adults should be able to drive, right? Isn't that regulated? Is the fact that it's regulated for our safety an indicator that it's wrong to have it legal? Really... I think your emotions are getting the best of you here. This paragraph of yours here is not indicative of the intelligent Talloulou I know and love.

As for consenting adults putting themselves in a potentially unsafe position... hell, I made a living out of that for nearly a decade. I'm glad they do! And I still put myself in unsafe positions whenever I get the opportunity! (whitewater, etc, etc)

But should sex be regulated? Do you want the government in your bedroom or out of it? Should the government be in the business of deciding how to make adult sexual playgrounds safe? Can adult sexual playgrounds ever be safe?

Legal prostitution would not be regulation of sex. It would be regulation of sexual services. The government is in my workplace whether I want them there or not, no matter where I work.

Re: Selling sex legally in New Zealand

Because by making prostitution a legal business you are in effect bringing the government in. It then becomes the governments problem to make sure the working conditions are not violating human rights. When sex becomes a commodity, a business, it falls under labor rights and the government is forced to regulate the bed.

This is not what I asked.

Why do you think the government has a responsibility to maintain the intimacy and dignity of sexual intercourse? Why should the supposed cheapening of sex be a legitimate concern of the government?

So again, you too want the government in the bedroom and out of it simultaneously. You want your sex private but also a business. You want your women to be "consenting adults in a private sex act" while also wanting the government to make some sexual acts fall under labor and business categories. How does that make any kind of sense???

This is a false dichotomy. For instance, one may serve hamburgers at a family party without adhering to government standards and regulations per the food industry. Why would serving sex be any different?

Or do you just want the right to pay for sex without being arrested and so selfish is your desire for that right that you care not about the Pandora's box this opens?

I don't have to justify the exercise of my rights to you or anyone else; alarmist caterwauling will do nothing to change this.

Also, I notice you failed to cite the power-granting clause which confers upon the government the authority to criminalize prostitution. Don't bother, it doesn't exist.

Re: Selling sex legally in New Zealand

Why do you think the government has a responsibility to maintain the intimacy and dignity of sexual intercourse? Why should the supposed cheapening of sex be a legitimate concern of the government?

I've said it over a hundred times in this thread. Legalizing prostitution ultimately leads to human rights violations against women & children. Bringing prostitution out into the open makes it more accessible and increases demand, which increases competition, which increases the need for more sex workers. YOUNG sex workers. There's a domino effect that everyone wants to ignore in favor of allowing a woman to sell her vagina or her mouth. Then, if you look at what's happened in other countries, the crap hits the fan. The human rights violations associated with prostitution become outrageous and the government is left holding the bag in sorting it out.

This is a false dichotomy. For instance, one may serve hamburgers at a family party without adhering to government standards and regulations per the food industry. Why would serving sex be any different?

Because you don't get paid serving hamburgers to your family. Once sex services are legitimized as a business sex practices fall under governmental regulation.

I don't have to justify the exercise of my rights to you or anyone else; alarmist caterwauling will do nothing to change this.

Also, I notice you failed to cite the power-granting clause which confers upon the government the authority to criminalize prostitution. Don't bother, it doesn't exist.

Can you site the one which gives the government authority to say it's wrong for a 40 year old guy to have sex with a 15 year old girl?