Was the Genesis Chamber filled with water, or something else? I was under the presumption that since all of the children where kept in the fluid, that it wasn't just for kicks and was your stereotypical sci-fi "life-stimulating" fluid that you always see in similar life chambers throughout films.

As for when it stated it created water, it didn't. What it did state was that it created everything necessary for Kryptonian life. So if it doesn't create water, water is not necessary for Kryptonian life.

As for the excuse that Zod made a mistake, I just don't buy it. Yes he did, but it's not really a reasonable mistake for someone of just reasonable intelligence to make. Can you really toss up the following internal logic to being a reasonable mistake?

"Well I've found one of the last surviving members of my species. And he has the necessary codex in his cells. But he won't let me have it if I use it to takeover his adopted home planet. And I did pass a number of solid planets in this solar system that I could easily use my world engine to terraform instead, including literally the next closest planet. Ah, **** it, I'm just going to kill this guy, even though he's obviously stronger than me on this planet, and even though I'll have to kill billions of humans when I could just hop over to uninhabited Mars, BECAUSE SURVIVAL."

You really think that's a defendable motive for a character, or a defendable impetus for a storyline?

Well I don't agree exactly how you just describe Zod's motives, so no I don't agree with how you perceive them.

Jor El dived into a huge pool of water that let to the codec chamber. I don't see why if there is water there, that it isn't plausible to assume that there is water on other parts of the planet. What did you think Jor El was swimming through?

Again, it may have been easier to simply terraform Earth if a good amount of the work was already done for them. Zod doesn't care about humans, so if it was easier to terraform Earth, he'll do it.

You've already made up your mind on the matter. So it guess it's of little consequence.

Well I don't agree exactly how you just describe Zod's motives, so no I don't agree with how you perceive them.

Jor El dived into a huge pool of water that let to the codec chamber. I don't see why if there is water there, that it isn't plausible to assume that there is water on other parts of the planet. What did you think Jor El was swimming through?

Again, it may have been easier to simply terraform Earth if a good amount of the work was already done for them. Zod doesn't care about humans, so if it was easier to terraform Earth, he'll do it.

You've already made up your mind on the matter. So it guess it's of little consequence.

Quote:

Jor El dived into a huge pool of water that let to the codec chamber. I don't see why if there is water there, that it isn't plausible to assume that there is water on other parts of the planet. What did you think Jor El was swimming through?

Did you actually read my post?

Quote:

Was the Genesis Chamber filled with water, or something else? I was under the presumption that since all of the children where kept in the fluid, that it wasn't just for kicks and was your stereotypical sci-fi "life-stimulating" fluid that you always see in similar life chambers throughout films.

Simply put, there is absolutely nothing indicating Earth would be quicker to terraform. But we do know that Zod could have completely avoided the situation by relocating to Mars. And we do know the world engine was designed for the sole purpose of bringing Kryptonian life to planets just like Mars. And in addition, what exactly is the rush? It's not like any of them are particularly old, and it's not like they have to worry about procreation. You keep going "ZOD SURVIVAL", but even if it did turn out that terraforming would have taken a bit longer on Mars than Earth, it did not threaten their survival. Whereas combat with Kal-El to do it on Earth instead obviously did.

As for his motives, I didn't describe his motives. I described his apparent thought process to fulfill his motives as depicted by you.

Look into his stony eyes and feel the emotion, the power, the sheer magnitude of every role he's ever played. Dude even made Alpha Dog a watchable movie

He absolutely kills it in Alpha Dog. I think his role thematically is the most important in that movie and he pulled it off brilliantly. God I can't wait to see him as Burroughs. His voice will be so gruff and manly.

Simply put, there is absolutely nothing indicating Earth would be quicker to terraform. But we do know that Zod could have completely avoided the situation by relocating to Mars. And we do know the world engine was designed for the sole purpose of bringing Kryptonian life to planets just like Mars. And in addition, what exactly is the rush? It's not like any of them are particularly old, and it's not like they have to worry about procreation. You keep going "ZOD SURVIVAL", but even if it did turn out that terraforming would have taken a bit longer on Mars than Earth, it did not threaten their survival. Whereas combat with Kal-El to do it on Earth instead obviously did.

As for his motives, I didn't describe his motives. I described his apparent thought process to fulfill his motives as depicted by you.

Yes I read it. Did you read my response correctly? Did you think what Jor El dived into was water when you first saw it? Just answer the question yes or no. The scene comes before you even see the chamber with the children in it. So when you were sitting in the theater and Jor El dives into what I'm assuming everyone else perceived as water, did you think it wasn't? That's the question I want you to answer. I wasn't even talking about the chamber with the children in it when I first corrected you regarding your statement of there being nothing on the planet to indicate that there was water in the film. Which is why I corrected you and brought up the first scene we see something which could be perceived as water, which is when Jor El dives into the pond.

Regardless, what you said earlier doesn't makes sense of terms of Krypton not having anything to indicate that water was on the planet in the film. And that's the point.

As for assuming that there isn't anything saying that Earth would be quicker to Terraform, that movie doesn't spell it out for you no. Again, films are meant to entertain, not educate. They're not going to nursemaid you through their fictional logic and explain reason for reason why it works with certain things and why it doesn't with others. In this context though, there can be reasons why Earth was chosen that the film doesn't have to tell the audience. Perhaps Mars atmosphere was too thin. Maybe it would be easier to terraform Earth's atmosphere since it has a lot more density. Maybe Mars was too far away from Earth to sustain life, even farther than Krytpon was to it's own star (by the way, I don't think in the film it was stated that Earth was closer to it's sun than Krypton was like you thought, just that Earth's sun was younger; nothing was mentioned in regards to distance from a star and it's effect as far as I can remember). There is also a huge amount of water that exists instead of pure ice like on Mars. Zod could also kill two birds with one stone in the process in regards to making a new Krypton on a suitable planet and kill Ka El who is already there (once he found out about the codecs). And there was also a ship there for 20,000 years probably sent there to make another world for Krypton. Probably picked Earth for a reason. The film could have easily gone in those directions of exposition. The reason I don't have a problem with it is because it doesn't make the movie fly apart plot wise since that said direction is one they could have taken, but chose not to elaborate on it. The movie tells us what we need to know. The audience could easily speculate plausible reasons as to why Earth was chosen. As for Zod being bred for the survival of his people, it doesn't simply denote that his people are in danger of dying. It means that Zod is going to take the most convenient methods available to sustain his race. Especially since that is all he cares about. If that means terraforming a planet that might save time if the cost is the population that already lives there that is perceived as primitive, then he'll take that route. Not surprising since he's already a menace. He's not a diplomat.

He absolutely kills it in Alpha Dog. I think his role thematically is the most important in that movie and he pulled it off brilliantly. God I can't wait to see him as Burroughs. His voice will be so gruff and manly.

Can't wait for Kill Your Darlings. I've always felt like the Kammerer murder/And The Hippos Were Boiled In Their Tanks story needed to be further told and coupled that with some inspired casting could surely lead to an excellent film

Yes I read it. Did you read my response correctly? Did you think what Jor El dived into was water when you first saw it? Just answer the question yes or no. The scene comes before you even see the chamber with the children in it. So when you were sitting in the theater and Jor El dives into what I'm assuming everyone else perceived as water, did you think it wasn't? That's the question I want you to answer. I wasn't even talking about the chamber with the children in it when I first corrected you regarding your statement of there being nothing on the planet to indicate that there was water in the film. Which is why I corrected you and brought up the first scene we see something which could be perceived as water, which is when Jor El dives into the pond.

Regardless, what you said earlier doesn't makes sense of terms of Krypton not having anything to indicate that water was on the planet in the film. And that's the point.

I don't think you correctly recall the scene, at all. You say that scene of him diving and the scene where we see the children are separate, but they aren't. You see them in that very pod he jumps into pretty immediately.

As for what I thought, nothing really. It was a pretty quick jump, I wasn't sitting there analyzing what liquid he was about to submerge himself in. But considering it was a bluish substance located in a special pod on an alien planet, no I certainly wasn't think it was jump some pool of water that Kryptonians like to randomly build.

That being said, I do see that you've changed your argument from "he jumped into a pool of water!" to "but didn't you think that he had jumped into a pool of water at first?" Says enough about that point in general.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ness

As for assuming that there isn't anything saying that Earth would be quicker to Terraform, that movie doesn't spell it out for you no. Again, films are meant to entertain, not educate. They're not going to nursemaid you through their fictional logic and explain reason for reason why it works with certain things and why it doesn't with others. In this context though, there can be reasons why Earth was chosen that the film doesn't have to tell the audience. Perhaps Mars atmosphere was too thin. Maybe it would be easier to terraform Earth's atmosphere since it has a lot more density. Maybe Mars was too far away from Earth to sustain life, even farther than Krytpon was to it's own star (by the way, I don't think in the film it was stated that Earth was closer to it's sun than Krypton was like you thought, just that Earth's sun was younger; nothing was mentioned in regards to distance from a star and it's effect as far as I can remember). There is also a huge amount of water that exists instead of pure ice like on Mars. Zod could also kill two birds with one stone in the process in regards to making a new Krypton on a suitable planet and kill Ka El who is already there (once he found out about the codecs). And there was also a ship there for 20,000 years probably sent there to make another world for Krypton. Probably picked Earth for a reason. The film could have easily gone in those directions of exposition. The reason I don't have a problem with it is because it doesn't make the movie fly apart plot wise since that said direction is one they could have taken, but chose not to elaborate on it. The movie tells us what we need to know. The audience could easily speculate plausible reasons as to why Earth was chosen. As for Zod being bred for the survival of his people, it doesn't simply denote that his people are in danger of dying. It means that Zod is going to take the most convenient methods available to sustain his race. Especially since that is all he cares about. If that means terraforming a planet that might save time if the cost is the population that already lives there that is perceived as primitive, then he'll take that route. Not surprising since he's already a menace. He's not a diplomat.

And your last statement in your response doesn't even make sense.

You're right, there's no need for the director to expound on every single alteration to physics or technology that he introduced. In this film, I'd probably still be sitting in the theater if he had tried that. But that's also not a license to do whatever the hell you want, logic be damned. I don't really care how many laws of physics were defied, but the logical gaffes are a bit different.

As for your reasoning, you continue to ignore the reason for the existence of the world engine. You craft a picture where apparently there are very delicate terms in which it can be used effectively, when we know from the vast colonies Krypton had that that was not the case, when we know the world machine was created for the sole purpose of creating habitable conditions in inhabitable zones. You say Mars' atmosphere may have been too thin, when it is the world engine itself which provides the atmosphere. Somehow the reason for Earth being chosen has shifted from Earth was just close enough to now simply Mars was too far away. You presume that Kryptonians require the vast amount of water that Earth possesses, despite never seeing water on Krypton (outside of the highly unlikely chance that Kryptonians just like to submerge their fetuses in water for shits and gigs, as you suggested). You say killing Kal-El was a reason to inhabit Earth, when in truth Zod would have to inhabit Earth in spite of Kal-El, and that if he had chosen anywhere else, Kal-El would have assisted him. And you continue to bring up the "ZOD SURVIVAL" argument, when in no way does battling Kal-El just to inhabit Earth make any more sense than allying with Kal-El and inhabiting literally any other planet in the universe, including the closest one.

But I think you summed it up perfectly with that closing sentence of the paragraph, Snyder simply wanted to make Zod a menace, and created an entirely contrived scenario in order to do so.

Can't wait for Kill Your Darlings. I've always felt like the Kammerer murder/And The Hippos Were Boiled In Their Tanks story needed to be further told and coupled that with some inspired casting could surely lead to an excellent film

I've always found the Lucien Carr bit underdeveloped as far as the Beat story goes. It'll be interesting to see how it plays as a movie.

And William Burroughs didn't really have a manly voice, more of a whiny snarl. Ben Foster is an interesting cast, for sure.

__________________

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mr. Goosemahn

The APS is strong in this one.

Quote:

Originally Posted by killxswitch

Tears for Fears is better than whatever it is you happen to be thinking about right now.

I don't think you correctly recall the scene, at all. You say that scene of him diving and the scene where we see the children are separate, but they aren't. You see them in that very pod he jumps into pretty immediately.

As for what I thought, nothing really. It was a pretty quick jump, I wasn't sitting there analyzing what liquid he was about to submerge himself in. But considering it was a bluish substance located in a special pod on an alien planet, no I certainly wasn't think it was jump some pool of water that Kryptonians like to randomly build.

That being said, I do see that you've changed your argument from "he jumped into a pool of water!" to "but didn't you think that he had jumped into a pool of water at first?" Says enough about that point in general.

You're right, there's no need for the director to expound on every single alteration to physics or technology that he introduced. In this film, I'd probably still be sitting in the theater if he had tried that. But that's also not a license to do whatever the hell you want, logic be damned. I don't really care how many laws of physics were defied, but the logical gaffes are a bit different.

As for your reasoning, you continue to ignore the reason for the existence of the world engine. You craft a picture where apparently there are very delicate terms in which it can be used effectively, when we know from the vast colonies Krypton had that that was not the case, when we know the world machine was created for the sole purpose of creating habitable conditions in inhabitable zones. You say Mars' atmosphere may have been too thin, when it is the world engine itself which provides the atmosphere. Somehow the reason for Earth being chosen has shifted from Earth was just close enough to now simply Mars was too far away. You presume that Kryptonians require the vast amount of water that Earth possesses, despite never seeing water on Krypton (outside of the highly unlikely chance that Kryptonians just like to submerge their fetuses in water for shits and gigs, as you suggested). You say killing Kal-El was a reason to inhabit Earth, when in truth Zod would have to inhabit Earth in spite of Kal-El, and that if he had chosen anywhere else, Kal-El would have assisted him. And you continue to bring up the "ZOD SURVIVAL" argument, when in no way does battling Kal-El just to inhabit Earth make any more sense than allying with Kal-El and inhabiting literally any other planet in the universe, including the closest one.

But I think you summed it up perfectly with that closing sentence of the paragraph, Snyder simply wanted to make Zod a menace, and created an entirely contrived scenario in order to do so.

I am pretty sure Zod is going after Superman out of spite. He swore that he would find Kal-El after he killed Russel Crowe and found out he got away. I think you guys would benefit from being a bit more pedantic in this situation.

I don't think you correctly recall the scene, at all. You say that scene of him diving and the scene where we see the children are separate, but they aren't. You see them in that very pod he jumps into pretty immediately.

What? You see the "water" (I'll just call it that because there is reason to assume there is H2O on the planet) first. He talks to his robot assistant and says the world has gone to ****, and then dives into the water. There is a few seconds while he is swimming underneath the water alone before he reaches the chamber.

You see water first before you see anything else. It doesn't happen at the same time. There is quite enough of a buffer for one to conclude that what Jor-El dived into was or was not water, if one indeed had that conclusion (even though there is nothing to suggest that before it happens).

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cigaro

As for what I thought, nothing really. It was a pretty quick jump, I wasn't sitting there analyzing what liquid he was about to submerge himself in. But considering it was a bluish substance located in a special pod on an alien planet, no I certainly wasn't think it was jump some pool of water that Kryptonians like to randomly build.

Right, I don't see why you would have to think it was anything else. You didn't think it wasn't water though, correct?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cigaro

That being said, I do see that you've changed your argument from "he jumped into a pool of water!" to "but didn't you think that he had jumped into a pool of water at first?" Says enough about that point in general.

I didn't change anything LOL. I'm asking you what you thought he jumped into was water or not. You have essentially danced around the question instead of straight up answer it for like two or three posts. Well, now you've answered it saying you don't know what he jumped into/ you thought it was something mystic goo like in other sci-fi films or whatever you said (once you saw the chamber moments later). Regardless, this still proves you wrong earlier where you blindly stated that there was nothing on Krypton to suggest that H2O is present:

Quote:

In addition, the H2O argument is a presumption, as nothing actually indicated that H2O existed on Krypton and that it held the same role.

So what Jor-El dived into really couldn't be considered water? Really? What was the audience supposed to believe it was? Some goo trope common in sci-fi movies? Was that what that scene was intended to convey?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cigaro

You're right, there's no need for the director to expound on every single alteration to physics or technology that he introduced. In this film, I'd probably still be sitting in the theater if he had tried that. But that's also not a license to do whatever the hell you want, logic be damned. I don't really care how many laws of physics were defied, but the logical gaffes are a bit different.

Like I mentioned, I thought the film did a pretty decent job overall explaining to the audience what they needed to know when they needed it and left needless exposition out that didn't necessarily add to the story. I think there are enough pieces in regards to colonizing Earth instead of Mars present for viewers to conclude why Zod settled there, if they decided to speculate.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cigaro

As for your reasoning, you continue to ignore the reason for the existence of the world engine. You craft a picture where apparently there are very delicate terms in which it can be used effectively, when we know from the vast colonies Krypton had that that was not the case, when we know the world machine was created for the sole purpose of creating habitable conditions in inhabitable zones. You say Mars' atmosphere may have been too thin, when it is the world engine itself which provides the atmosphere. Somehow the reason for Earth being chosen has shifted from Earth was just close enough to now simply Mars was too far away. You presume that Kryptonians require the vast amount of water that Earth possesses, despite never seeing water on Krypton (outside of the highly unlikely chance that Kryptonians just like to submerge their fetuses in water for shits and gigs, as you suggested). You say killing Kal-El was a reason to inhabit Earth, when in truth Zod would have to inhabit Earth in spite of Kal-El, and that if he had chosen anywhere else, Kal-El would have assisted him. And you continue to bring up the "ZOD SURVIVAL" argument, when in no way does battling Kal-El just to inhabit Earth make any more sense than allying with Kal-El and inhabiting literally any other planet in the universe, including the closest one.

Where did I deny the reason for the existence of the world engine? I mentioned that the technology isn't spelled out nuance by nuance. That isn't ignoring anything. That's acknowledging that the technology exists and it's acknowledging the general idea of it's purpose. But since every nuance isn't provided to the viewer in regards to the technology, in this context it's plausible to suggest that there dozens of "scientific" reasons not provided in the film via exposition that may explain why Earth was chosen instead of Mars. What picture am I crafting? I'm explaining possible reasons why Earth was chosen instead of Mars. I'm not explaining why anything definitely does or does not work. For you apparently it's as simple as "world engine makes any planet habitable" and that's the end of the story and that's why colonizing Earth instead of Mars makes zero sense to you. We don't even know for certain if that was the case with the World Engine. No where is it stated in the film that it can make any planet for certain habitable. All we know is how they do it (terraforming/using gravity to increase a planet's mass) that the ancient Kryptonians were settlers and thrived for 100,000 years before using up their natural resources. I've already explained a couple of times why there are enough clues within the film for viewers to make up there own mind as to why Earth was chosen. It's not a big enough problem that a couple lines of dialogue could have closed that door shut for you. Which is why I don't have an issue with it as a viewer. I'm not presuming anything, only speculating. There is a clear difference. By the way where was I suggesting that Kryptonians submerged their fetuses in water for no reason? Where did I say or imply that? Please, show me the quote. I'd love to know. Again, all of my suggestions for possible reasoning why Earth was chosen instead of Mars have been just that, suggestions and speculations. Not presumptions. You yourself presumed quite definitively that there was nothing on Krypton to suggest H20 though. I didn't suggest that Krytponians need the vast amount of water for sure, I suggested it as a possibility and I also suggested that it may be easier to in fact start with Earth if a good amount of the work was already done, something you've conveniently left out in your response. I also mentioned that Zod could kill two birds with one stone, not that he had to kill Kal El to inhabit Earth. And as far as the distance between planets are concerned, I just mentioned that we don't know if that was or wasn't a factor in the terraforming process. Nothing was said about distance for planets in the movie, so we don't know for sure.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cigaro

But I think you summed it up perfectly with that closing sentence of the paragraph, Snyder simply wanted to make Zod a menace, and created an entirely contrived scenario in order to do so.

Well as far as the "Mars instead of Earth" argument, I personally don't find it that contrived. You've already assumed that Mars would have worked just as well as Earth though, so that is going to change your viewpoint of the entire thing anyways. So whatever.

What? You see the "water" (I'll just call it that because there is reason to assume there is H2O on the planet) first. He talks to his robot assistant and says the world has gone to ****, and then dives into the water. There is a few seconds while he is swimming underneath the water alone before he reaches the chamber.

You see water first before you see anything else. It doesn't happen at the same time. There is quite enough of a buffer for one to conclude that what Jor-El dived into was or was not water, if one indeed had that conclusion (even though there is nothing to suggest that before it happens).

Right, I don't see why you would have to think it was anything else. You didn't think it wasn't water though, correct?

I didn't change anything LOL. I'm asking you what you thought he jumped into was water or not. You have essentially danced around the question instead of straight up answer it for like two or three posts. Well, now you've answered it saying you don't know what he jumped into/ you thought it was something mystic goo like in other sci-fi films or whatever you said (once you saw the chamber moments later). Regardless, this still proves you wrong earlier where you blindly stated that there was nothing on Krypton to suggest that H2O is present:

So what Jor-El dived into really couldn't be considered water? Really? What was the audience supposed to believe it was? Some goo trope common in sci-fi movies? Was that what that scene was intended to convey?

You're arguing that because you initially thought it was water, even if it wasn't actually water, you are therefore justified in believing they needed water. No, just no. If it's not water, there's absolutely no justification for believing they might need water anyways, regardless of your initial wrong. If your initial belief was wrong, then it is immaterial. That's like me saying I thought my roommate stole my phone, when it turns out I just misplaced it, but from here on out I'm justified in thinking my roommate is a thief, because that's what I thought at first! The only issue that matters is whether it was water or not, not whether for the first few seconds you thought it was water. And again, unless some Kryptonian genius thought, "But what if we put them underwater, that'd look cool!" and then submerged them in normal water, it is much, much more likely that it is not water that Jor-El jumped into, that is is some sort of specially designed fluid.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ness

Like I mentioned, I thought the film did a pretty decent job overall explaining to the audience what they needed to know when they needed it and left needless exposition out that didn't necessarily add to the story. I think there are enough pieces in regards to colonizing Earth instead of Mars present for viewers to conclude why Zod settled there, if they decided to speculate.

Where did I deny the reason for the existence of the world engine? I mentioned that the technology isn't spelled out nuance by nuance. That isn't ignoring anything. That's acknowledging that the technology exists and it's acknowledging the general idea of it's purpose. But since every nuance isn't provided to the viewer in regards to the technology, in this context it's plausible to suggest that there dozens of "scientific" reasons not provided in the film via exposition that may explain why Earth was chosen instead of Mars. What picture am I crafting? I'm explaining possible reasons why Earth was chosen instead of Mars. I'm not explaining why anything definitely does or does not work. For you apparently it's as simple as "world engine makes any planet habitable" and that's the end of the story and that's why colonizing Earth instead of Mars makes zero sense to you. We don't even know for certain if that was the case with the World Engine. No where is it stated in the film that it can make any planet for certain habitable. All we know is how they do it (terraforming/using gravity to increase a planet's mass) that the ancient Kryptonians were settlers and thrived for 100,000 years before using up their natural resources. I've already explained a couple of times why there are enough clues within the film for viewers to make up there own mind as to why Earth was chosen. It's not a big enough problem that a couple lines of dialogue could have closed that door shut for you. Which is why I don't have an issue with it as a viewer. I'm not presuming anything, only speculating. There is a clear difference. By the way where was I suggesting that Kryptonians submerged their fetuses in water for no reason? Where did I say or imply that? Please, show me the quote. I'd love to know. Again, all of my suggestions for possible reasoning why Earth was chosen instead of Mars have been just that, suggestions and speculations. Not presumptions. You yourself presumed quite definitively that there was nothing on Krypton to suggest H20 though. I didn't suggest that Krytponians need the vast amount of water for sure, I suggested it as a possibility and I also suggested that it may be easier to in fact start with Earth if a good amount of the work was already done, something you've conveniently left out in your response. I also mentioned that Zod could kill two birds with one stone, not that he had to kill Kal El to inhabit Earth. And as far as the distance between planets are concerned, I just mentioned that we don't know if that was or wasn't a factor in the terraforming process. Nothing was said about distance for planets in the movie, so we don't know for sure.

Well as far as the "Mars instead of Earth" argument, I personally don't find it that contrived. You've already assumed that Mars would have worked just as well as Earth though, so that is going to change your viewpoint of the entire thing anyways. So whatever.

You're not denying the existence of the world engine, but rather the reason for its existence. Because again, you paint a picture where it needs very fickle conditions to work efficiently, even though it was plainly stated that the world engine was designed specifically to make uninhabitable planets (like Mars) habitable.

As for where did you suggest that Kryptonians like to submerge their fetuses for shits and gigs, its the part of every single one of your posts (and probably the very next one) where you go "BUT DIDN'T YOU THINK HE JUMPED INTO WATER?" According to your "it's just water" theory (although it seems you only say you thought it was water, but now have abandoned any belief that it was actually water), Kryptonians apparently built a relatively complex cavern system just so they could put their fetuses underwater for no apparent reason. But I guess it looked cool?

And when you say "kill two birds with one stone", you were directly implying that he needed to kill Kal-El. That's the only way Kal-El could be considered the "second bird". Otherwise, Kal-El did not arise as a problem until he purposely made Earth a problem.

To those commenting that Zod wanted to kill Kal-El out of spite, considering he wanted Kal-El to join him, I don't think it's that simple.

You're arguing that because you initially thought it was water, even if it wasn't actually water, you are therefore justified in believing they needed water. No, just no. If it's not water, there's absolutely no justification for believing they might need water anyways, regardless of your initial wrong. If your initial belief was wrong, then it is immaterial. That's like me saying I thought my roommate stole my phone, when it turns out I just misplaced it, but from here on out I'm justified in thinking my roommate is a thief, because that's what I thought at first! The only issue that matters is whether it was water or not, not whether for the first few seconds you thought it was water. And again, unless some Kryptonian genius thought, "But what if we put them underwater, that'd look cool!" and then submerged them in normal water, it is much, much more likely that it is not water that Jor-El jumped into, that is is some sort of specially designed fluid.

No, the initial argument and point of what we're talking about still runs off your previous quote:

Quote:

In addition, the H2O argument is a presumption, as nothing actually indicated that H2O existed on Krypton and that it held the same role.

Again, you assume nothing on Krypton could be considered water. The scene proves you completely wrong. And you still haven't answered my question. How could what Jor El dived into not possibly be water? How can you prove that? How is it impossible that what he dived into was water? Because with your previous quote you're saying that. And I'm asking how could that be impossible since you said nothing on the planet could be considered water. At best one could assume it might be water, but you can't rule out the possibility, which is what you did earlier. Either way you're wrong about it being impossible.

Water has two of the most common elements in the universe as we know it. When I saw the scene I initially thought it was water as I had no reason, nor is any reason in the film given, that it isn't water or something combined with water. Essentially water being the basis. Even if I was wrong about it being water, there is nothing in the movie that even hints that it isn't, so therefore the possibility exists that it could be. Again, no reason in the film is given or even alluded to saying that what Jor El dived into could not be just water. Even if you want to assume that it is some specially designed fluid, there is no basis for that conclusion. It could go either way. The best you could do is speculate, not assume. Maybe you could say that about anything. But you can't rule out the possibility that it's just water. Especially since nothing is virtually known about Krypton. So to stand by and say that nothing on Krypton could be considered water is just pigheaded and wreaks of not wanting to be wrong and save face.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cigaro

You're not denying the existence of the world engine, but rather the reason for its existence. Because again, you paint a picture where it needs very fickle conditions to work efficiently, even though it was plainly stated that the world engine was designed specifically to make uninhabitable planets (like Mars) habitable.

As for where did you suggest that Kryptonians like to submerge their fetuses for shits and gigs, its the part of every single one of your posts (and probably the very next one) where you go "BUT DIDN'T YOU THINK HE JUMPED INTO WATER?" According to your "it's just water" theory (although it seems you only say you thought it was water, but now have abandoned any belief that it was actually water), Kryptonians apparently built a relatively complex cavern system just so they could put their fetuses underwater for no apparent reason. But I guess it looked cool?

And when you say "kill two birds with one stone", you were directly implying that he needed to kill Kal-El. That's the only way Kal-El could be considered the "second bird". Otherwise, Kal-El did not arise as a problem until he purposely made Earth a problem.

To those commenting that Zod wanted to kill Kal-El out of spite, considering he wanted Kal-El to join him, I don't think it's that simple.

Where did I deny the reason for it's existence? The World Engine that is. Where did I say that? Give me direct quotes and post/quote them in your response like I've done for you so we both know exactly what I've said. The only ideas I've talked about regarding the World Engine is that we don't know the full extent of it's capabilities in regards to terraforming any planet, which may explain why Earth was chosen. There is nothing in the film that says that Krypton or a World Engine was able to turn any planet in the universe into a habitable planet. That isn't denying the reason for the World Engine's existence. Interestingly enough Zod mentions (at least in what he believes) that Jor El sent Superman and the codex so that Krypton could be built again on Earth and mentions "a foundation has to be built on something". Again, these are simply more outs for a viewer that questions why Earth may have been a better alternative compared to Mars, which is all I've provided. Alternative suggestions.

Also, with your notion of me saying that the people of Krypton like to put their fetuses in water (they were actually in another tube with something else in the tube so that could be argued there as well). Nothing could be ruled out in the scene since we don't know much about Krypton in the first place. The entire issue with that said scene we've been talking about, or rather what the point should be, is the possibility that it could be water. I'm guessing you still sticking by your statement that nothing on Krypton could be water though, right? Oh, and I've never abandoned the belief that it was water once. That doesn't make sense since I've pushed the idea that it could be water this entire time.

As for your last statement, I was under the impression that Zod had planned to kill Superman (or at least hold him against his free will) as revenge against Jor El and take the Codex. You're right that he didn't know it was within Superman until after he decided to terraform Earth. Killing two birds with one stone could go either way in the order he chose to do so though. As in, me saying that didn't imply against what was done in the movie, which is Zod planning to terraform Earth first (since he believed Superman would be sent to a planet by Jor El where Krypton could thrive again).