00:01:15 arcfide: the IO size is pretty small.
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00:50:33 eli: Looking at it, I guess you're right, though it did seem to have some strange CPU reports on my machine.
00:50:58 Anyways, I'm on to other challenges now. I finally have the proper method for soft-boiled eggs!
00:51:17 It took me long enough to figure it out . . . :|
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01:31:50 I'm sure you were all eminently aware of this, but I'd just like to remark that shell scripting is brain-damaged beyond humanly words of derogation.
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01:42:06 two- or three-line scripts are OK :)
01:42:19 Here is a disturbingly useful fragment in a shell script: foo="'`printf '%s' "$bar" | sed -e 's/'"'"'/'"'"'"'"'"'"'"'"'/g'`'"
01:42:25 :)
01:42:39 I've never had to do anything _quote_ that bad, but ah feel yo pain.
01:42:42 ha
01:42:46 Freudian typo
01:43:00 In fact, that is among the most useful fragments in shell scripts I've thought of in a long time.
01:43:35 Unfortunately it is not as portable as one might wish.
01:43:48 I honestly am not sure what it does. Adds quotes? Turns one flavor of quote into another?
01:44:38 The right way to do it is really with a heredoc:
01:44:57 foo="'`sed -e 's/'"'"'/'"'"'"'"'"'"'"'"'/g < $bar
01:44:59 EOF
01:45:03 `'"
01:45:14 s/right/portable/1
01:45:36 It quotes single-quotes so that they are suitable for generating shell scripts as output.
01:45:56 yeah.
01:45:58 *shudder*
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01:46:14 if I had that problem, I'd probably invoke perl or some other handy language.
01:46:15 This lets one, for example, actually use arguments that have spaces in them.
01:46:25 gol-lee
01:46:26 Shell scripting is messed up. That's why, if I ever intend to keep the shell script around, I rewrite it in Scheme.
01:46:27 who'd'a thunk
01:46:51 all shell scripts eventually get rewritten in _something_ better.
01:47:01 offby1: sometimes, but not always.
01:47:16 I know some shell scripts that have existed and continue to exist: they just won't die.
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01:47:48 always!
01:47:51 read mah lips
01:48:10 Actually, I personally think that, had autoconf been written in something other than shell scripts, there might actually be some hope of redeeming it, no matter how small.
01:48:19 meh
01:48:25 To be honest, I'd rather use that little monstrosity than try to quote Perl scripts.
01:48:26 automake is perl, and it's a botch, too :-|
01:48:36 autoconf had a legitimate reason to be written in shell script.
01:48:49 'twas the only language sure to be available
01:48:55 automake is just a botch and deserves no further existence.
01:49:01 I use one very useful perl program -- set of perl programs -- the code for which I do not examine: pkg_* tools on OpenBSD.
01:49:13 Those are written in Perl on OpenBSD?
01:49:27 I don't care _what_ something is written in, as long as it works, and I don't have to look at it
01:49:59 Riastradh: They were written in C, and then someone rewrote the entire thing in Perl to provide additional features and ease maintainability. They actually improved the speed, feature set, and reliability of the software. I was amused.
01:50:42 offby1: Given my involvement with OpenBSD at some level as a port maintainer, I do stand the risk of having to read the PKG_* tools' sources.
01:50:52 Riastradh: Undeadly.org has some information about the rewriting.
01:51:04 perl, to ease maintainability? hmm
01:51:31 mbishop: That just shows how bad the C code was for them at the time. It was an architectural as well as lingual shift.
01:51:41 *offby1* reflexively throws his dentures at mbishop
01:52:02 Riastradh: autoconf may have had a legitimate reason to be written in shell scripts, but that doesn't mean I have to like it.
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01:52:30 Do you care to suggest an alternative, arcfide?
01:52:37 `Use OpenBSD' is not an alternative.
01:52:42 *arcfide* chuckles.
01:53:29 Well, the software projects I have had the most ease and least amount of trouble working with when they run into an environment with which they are not familiar is a well designed set of Makefiles and system specific declarations.
01:53:51 I am not saying that this is a good replacement for autoconf, but I believe that it has been far more pleasant for me than autoconf based software.
01:54:21 git doesn't use configure at all, as far as I know. There's just a Makefile, and if you're missing some library, it fails to compile. Pretty simple, actually.
01:54:30 When placed in environments where both build systems know what to do, I believe they don't really cause much difference one way or the other.
01:54:59 offby1: One program I use is NN, and it is built with some config files that you edit to run. They are well documented, and they work very nicely.
01:55:12 There are some others that I have used which work equally nicely.
01:55:22 wow, the old newsreader?
01:55:29 offby1: it isn't that old.
01:55:39 offby1: Okay, well, yes, it is.
01:55:39 I'd have guessed 20 years, actually
01:55:47 I think about 24 actually.
01:55:53 But it has a relatively recent release.
01:56:19 It's the best newsreader for my purposes. And it has a very pleasing build system; especially after . . . MIT Scheme. ;-)
01:56:42 Not that I am implying all autoconf programs are as bad as MIT Scheme was at one time.
01:57:30 Isn't someone trying to rewrite the Chicken build system to unify and simplify the whole thing?
01:57:46 offby1: What do you use for news?
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01:59:53 gnus
02:00:23 arcfide: a year or two ago a (at the time) local guy named Brandon Van Every was rewriting the Chicken build system, using CMake.
02:01:06 Gnus, eh? :-D
02:01:10 -!- annodomini [n=lambda@wikipedia/lambda] has quit []
02:01:21 Do you use it to read your mail, RSS, and future as well?
02:01:34 mail, yes; others, now.
02:01:35 now.
02:01:36 no.
02:01:38 Christ.
02:01:50 Azathoth.
02:01:58 Vishnu!
02:02:17 Ganesh... Nyarlathotep... C'mon, I'm not very good at this game; someone else pitch in.
02:03:07 Flurbithentethes
02:03:14 I think you made that one up.
02:03:29 Cat monster!
02:04:11 I give up. I'm going to bed.
02:05:40 Adagio for strings, Op. 11 -- :-D
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02:28:09 Anyone running Ikarus on cygwin?
02:29:01 what's ikarus?
02:29:10 Ikarus Scheme
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02:30:40 grettke: not on cygwin I am afraid.
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02:30:47 Well, actually, I am glad to not be running it on cygwin.
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02:31:32 arcfide: You used a figure of speech, you didn't say you were sad not to be.
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02:32:34 grettke: by using that figure of speech, i believe I implied that I might have wished to be running it in some sense.
02:33:09 arcfide: haha no, it is more of a formality
02:33:37 I tend to take it more literally than that.
02:33:58 Hrm, it appears that I have a problem with my minimax algorithm.
02:34:40 Running my game with only one ply search depth, meaning that the program is entirely dependent on the evaluation procedure to determine the best move, I win almost all games against my random playing opponent.
02:34:56 However, introducing a 3-ply search depth results in the opponent winning more often and by a greater margin.
02:35:03 *arcfide* wonders what could introduce such a bad thing.
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02:40:59 arcfide: scott bakulaaa
02:41:06 klutometis: huh?
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02:41:38 arcfide: oh, sorry; the onion just imputed metaphysical powers to him: http://www.theonion.com/content/news_briefs/scott_bakula_jumps_into?utm_source=onion_rss_daily
02:41:39 -rudybot:#scheme- http://tinyurl.com/44m9wu
02:41:43 i'm sure he could screw up minimax
02:44:04 arcfide: you accidentally reversed the scoring or something?
02:45:00 pjdelport: I am trying to investigate this possibility, but for some reason, it doesn't affect it that much, but just enough to be noticeably worse.
02:45:06 The game still wins most of the time.
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03:06:50 pjdelport: I see, I was forgetting to put the right sign when handling special terminal cases.
03:06:59 Meaning that a lost board could be considered a good thing by the game.
03:07:21 arcfide: i was thinking something like that, yeah
03:07:25 suicide chess :)
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03:14:34 Riastradh: Was SCSH not a viable alternative to shell scripting? Or did you need something portable?
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03:27:26 la la la
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03:30:15 hodely yodely
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03:54:07 in plt, (call-in-nested-thread) means after the current thread dies, that thread will stop, unlike (thread) where the created thread continues ad infinitum with a never ending function. I think...
03:56:11 sounds reasonable.
03:56:14 I've never used it, though
03:57:26 I think it's okay to use... just running a thread that attempts some cleanup repeatedly, so after the "upper" thread finishes it can just die happily.
03:58:25 could be
03:58:32 pity the docs don't make it clear
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04:01:46 Oh it won't work actually >_<
04:02:07 "The current thread blocks until thunk returns, and the result of the call-in-nested-thread call is the result returned by thunk."
04:02:15 wtf, why not just call thunk then?
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04:04:59 Great... I'm gonna have to make a second thread to wait on the current thread and then kill the cleanup thread.
04:05:41 This is why I should be concerned about the performance of 12k threads, I always litter them all over the place.
04:09:02 calling the hunk in a separate thread might be useful in that the "child" thread cannot harm the parent's globals
04:10:19 I guess that could be useful.
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04:11:47 synx pasted "witness my fail" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/68472
04:12:01 That works.
04:12:03 Um...
04:12:13 For being an awful hack, at least.
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04:49:15 synx: That *is* a bad hack.
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04:50:12 Probably if I check thread-dead? after every will-execute... only one thread needed then.
04:50:28 synx: first of all, you could use events, and make the destroying-thread wait on either the will being ready or the parent thread being dead. Detect which one happened, and act accordingly.
04:50:35 The global will be garbage collected after the thread dies...right...
04:50:53 No, not after -- if the thread dies while you're waiting for the will, then you won't wake up.
04:50:54 Ooh that's a good idea eli. I'll do that!
04:51:03 No, that's still a bad idea.
04:51:20 A better idea is to read about custodians.
04:51:49 You create a custodian, then when you want to throw the whole thing out you use `custodian-shutdown-all' which will close all ports, kill the threads etc etc.
04:51:51 meh... guess so.
04:52:15 Not need to meh -- it was designed for such situations.
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04:52:38 But even more better is to just leave the thread alive. It doesn't harm anyone.
04:52:45 I don't kill the main thread explicitly. The "user" does it...
04:53:01 Well, it'd spawn a new one every time I hit Ctrl-T in drscheme is the thing.
04:53:01 Irrelevant.
04:53:11 No you won't/
04:53:29 DrScheme starts each interaction from a clean state.
04:53:40 (And guess how it does that...)
04:53:47 No it doesn't... does it?
04:53:48 Oh okay.
04:53:52 It does.
04:53:52 Custodians, sure.
04:54:51 Riastradh: if you're using a good shell (and it seems that you are, since that code doesn't work on a sh, the quoting seems suspicious), then you can just as well do something like: foo-"'${bar//'/'\"'\"'}'"
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04:55:16 Riastradh: should have been an assignment: foo="'${bar//'/'\"'\"'}'"
04:55:57 *aspect* eyes bleed
04:57:17 it's better than what Riastradh pasted earlier
04:59:32 what's the goal?
04:59:55 Quote a piece of a script.
05:00:19 '...' is a literal quote, but the problem is that you cannot have a ' character in it.
05:00:57 So you quote it using double quotes -- but you need to switch off the single quotes.
05:01:38 For example, you need to turn FOO'BAR"BAZ to 'FOO'"'"'BAR"BAZ'
05:02:05 ... and the above piece of bash adds a surrounding 's, and replaces every ' into '"'"'
05:02:08 Simple.
05:03:44 and if you wanted to quote that
05:03:48 FOO'"'"'"'"'"'"'"'"'BAR"BAZ
05:03:56 and so on
05:05:04 *aspect* would use sed and \', but that's just what I find more readable
05:06:01 pjdelport: ''"'"'FOO'"'"'"'"'"'"'"'"'BAR"BAZ'"'"'' to be more exact (the outer ''s are redundant)
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05:06:21 aspect: that wouldn't help with the basic problem, it only makes it more complicated.
05:06:38 insane
05:07:30 Not insane, just a bad quoting scheme.
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05:07:49 Quoting is a delicate business.
05:08:33 I always try to properly attribute my quotes.
05:08:33 Say that you want a simple quoting notation, and come up with this:
05:09:00 "Humor can be dissected as a frog can, but the thing dies in the process and the innards are discouraging to any but the pure scientist. --E.B. White"
05:09:05 '...' is a quoted ..., where every character in the ... stands for itself, except for '
05:09:11 Now, _there_'s a good quote.
05:09:27 to quote a ' you precede it with a backslash
05:09:39 a backslash has no significance in itself
05:09:55 so 'a\b' is the string a-backslash-b
05:10:06 eli: I think we understand quoting as well as we need|care to
05:10:11 only \' can be used to produce a '
05:10:30 If you want to have a \' in the string, precede that with a backslash: \\'
05:10:44 Question: is this quoting scheme broken, and if so how?
05:11:00 aspect: the tick starts clocking now.
05:11:38 *aspect* has paying work to do. which happens to be more interesting, somehow
05:12:08 *eli* boos
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05:17:07 How wonderfully coincidental!
05:17:31 I was just writing about proper quoting technique a few minutes ago.
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05:21:12 is there something wrong with the plt-scheme.org site? I can't seem toget to it at all...
05:21:21 downforeveryoneorjustme.com
05:22:01 atleastyourircworks.org
05:22:02 plt-scheme.org is up for me
05:22:09 http://docs.plt-scheme.org/
05:22:12 that one doesn't
05:22:19 thats up too
05:22:29 but.. really you should use your localhost for the docs. its much faster
05:22:32 that site's telling me it's not
05:22:36 where is it here?
05:22:40 plt-help
05:23:31 in... dr scheme?
05:24:49 look in file:///home/you/.plt
05:24:55 look in file:///home/you/.plt-scheme rather
05:25:13 on my box it's file:///home/erich/.plt-scheme/4.1.1/doc/index.html
05:25:19 only plt-prefs.ss here
05:25:22 naturally the login name and version number will vary
05:26:30 and the site still isn't working =/
05:26:48 is there a mirror or something where I can get the pdf version of the docs?
05:27:30 mua ha ha
05:27:40 hm?
05:28:00 that's evil laughter.
05:28:09 I've never seen them in PDF; just HTML
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05:28:22 so you're running DrScheme?
05:29:48 hm
05:29:49 yeah
05:30:06 I saw a link to http://download.plt-scheme.org/doc/pdf/
05:30:13 so what happens when you choose the "Help" menu, and select the first item on it: "Help Desk" ?
05:30:13 but I obviously can't see what's there
05:30:51 ooh, that's cool
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05:31:01 but in a really annoying format/little window
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05:31:50 ?
05:31:57 what version of DrScheme are you running?
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05:33:25 372
05:33:30 and I don't mean it's bad
05:33:38 just in a weird format
05:33:46 is there any way to browse it with like firefox?
05:34:09 dunno; can't remember. 372 is pretty old :)
05:34:13 try v4
05:34:15 aoeuid: yes, upgrade to the recent release -- 4.1.1.
05:34:30 gnomon: what was the issue?
05:34:39 *eli* just loves quoting
05:34:54 v4?
05:35:06 I downloaded the version from the ubuntu repos
05:35:27 aoeuid: use the installers at download.plt-scheme.org, they're better.
05:36:17 *offby1* nods sagely
05:36:28 pity nobody has packaged v4 for Ubuntu yet
05:36:29 I'm sure that would be nice, but that url's not accessible either :/
05:36:33 eli, you won't like it.
05:36:34 http://awk.freeshell.org/PrintASingleQuote
05:37:24 and this documentation is amazing!
05:37:50 aoeuid, are you sure your internet works?
05:38:02 gnomon: nicely written
05:38:30 yeah, other sites work fine
05:38:34 pretty weird
05:38:40 gnomon: that's the same issue as above -- the stupidity of shell quotes.
05:38:44 but this stuff in the help desk should be about all I need :)
05:38:52 gnomon: guy I worked with once thought awk was the be-all and end-all
05:39:12 *aspect* likes awk
05:40:16 offby1: it's strange that people like that exist. Like some Neanderthal perl hackers.
05:40:19 Crom! There's an entire #awk channel??
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05:40:32 zaktly.
05:41:11 Plan 9 people love awk/sed/etc. and hate Perl.
05:41:31 So nobody has an answer to the quoting problem I wrote?
05:42:17 offby1, thanks!
05:43:00 offby1, as for awk being all that and a bag of chips... I *like* awk, perhaps to an unreasonable degree, but I have illusions about its many limitations.
05:43:12 s/have/have no/
05:43:14 ... ?
05:43:25 Daemmerung, the entire #awk channel is a ragtag bunch of language weenies, of which I am a proud member ;)
05:43:33 Er, yes. Rather.
05:43:56 foof, I like awk quite a bit. I quite like a bit of sed.
05:43:58 the last useful thing I saw awk being used for was as an embedded interpreter to prevent code being written to disk for anti-forensics purposes
05:44:18 in new code at least
05:44:27 Adamant, if that's really the last useful piece of awk you've seen... oh, ok.
05:44:45 gnomon: yeah, I know awk is all around us if we use Unix
05:44:57 *Daemmerung* wrote some Awk to process `empire' data... long, long ago
05:45:19 The last useful bit of awk I saw was a very simple program to iterate through every line in a file and split it into four parts, so that the input list could be fed into four separate machine instances to parallelize load. It was about a 15-byte program. Awk excels in its niche.
05:45:32