Palestine vs Israel - The Scoreboard

Well i was on facebook today, and i came across this image of statistics from a group called ''World Riots 24/h''

It paints an image of a pretty one sided war if you ask me.

But i backtracked some of the figures using google and a source from www.ifamericansknew.org...
I think the general consensus is that even if you dispute these figures, you simply cannot dispute the validity of the ratios!

More palestinian civilians (women and children) have been injured/killed than Israel by far, thanks to F-16 carpet bombing from the worlds top ten
military power.

Whats of particular importance is also the number of UN resolutions violated on Israels behalf, i would like to see anyone dispute those
claims.....because lets face it.....that more than just common knowledge......national media outlets will also confirm that israel are making illegal
settlements despite UN calls to stop doing so, but israel pretends it didnt hear anything!

Don't want to come of as biased in this thread, just displaying some figures for those out there who have better reactions to visual aids instead of
just words.

Don't want to come of as biased in this thread, just displaying some figures for those out there who have better reactions to visual aids
instead of just words.

NO….not at all!

Look, personally I don’t feel bad for a group of people who sponsor and carry out terrorist attacks. You can’t look at death tolls and determine
who the aggressor is or who the “bad guy” is. Maybe if the (so-called) Palestinian people would stop supporting Muslim violence against innocent
people in Israel they wouldn’t receive so many casualties.

Your name suggests that you "seek the truth" but you're pretending as though Palestine is an innocent victim, which is totally ridiculous.

Thank you for your reply, but i dont believe my post mentioned anything about innocence, furthermore i tried my upmost not to take sides. I simply
display the facts and the figures. Its up to the discretion of the reader to make up their own minds.

I do seek truth, and im more likely to find it amongst facts and figures than opinions and biased arguments.

Originally posted by seabag
You can’t look at death tolls and determine who the aggressor is or who the “bad guy” is.

But you can certainly look and see if the response is proportionate to the offense.
ATS is (quite rightfully) full of threads where the police are lambasted for killing people where it wasnt warranted. You see it all the time in
threads like "Cop shoots man for wearing blue t-shirt" or whatever.

In the same way, side X killing hundreds of people on side Y, for throwing rocks, should also be rightfully criticised.

As is also the case for the large number of bystanders killed.
"Cop accidentally kills whole family while arresting weed smoker" would also be worthy of criticism.

I assume (maybe wrongly) that you are american, so imagine if one day the native americans decide they want all their land back. And say they get the
backing of most of the world including the superpowers. So they roll in and bulldozer your home and all your families homes and put you all in a
certain area then start putting restrictions on you...

Btw this goes for whatever country you're in really as it is only hypothetical...

Originally posted by ISeekTruth101
It paints an image of a pretty one sided war if you ask me.

Judging which side in a war is right or wrong is never as easy as looking at statistics. If you really want to judge sides in this conflict look at
who initiated the conflict the majority of the time, and what the stated and implied goals of each side were.

Originally posted by ISeekTruth101
I think the general consensus is that even if you dispute these figures, you simply cannot dispute the validity of the ratios!

And what do those ratios tell you? How much each side values the lives of its own constituents?

Perhaps Israel has far fewer civilian fatalities because it spends far higher proportion of resources to ensure the safety of its people before any
other goal.

Originally posted by ISeekTruth101
More palestinian civilians (women and children) have been injured/killed than Israel by far, thanks to F-16 carpet bombing from the worlds top ten
military power.

I don't think you understand the concept of "carpet bombing". The F-16 is certainly not the best piece of equipment for this job. In fact, since
you like statistics so much, take a look at the proportion of smart vs unguided munitions used by Israel.

There is one side in this conflict that uses 100% unguided munitions. Clue - it is not Israel. Do you know what Soviet Union designed the Grad
rocket system for? Terrorizing the opposing side.

Originally posted by ISeekTruth101
Whats of particular importance is also the number of UN resolutions violated on Israels behalf

Like what?

Originally posted by ISeekTruth101
Don't want to come of as biased in this thread, just displaying some figures for those out there who have better reactions to visual aids instead of
just words.

Visual aids are highly prone to bias. I can conjure up enough visual aids to show that Pol Pot was a freaking saint, and to convince any half-wit of
my point of view.

But you can certainly look and see if the response is proportionate to the offense.
ATS is (quite rightfully) full of threads where the police are lambasted for killing people where it wasnt warranted. You see it all the time in
threads like "Cop shoots man for wearing blue t-shirt" or whatever.

Originally posted by alfa1
But you can certainly look and see if the response is proportionate to the offense.
ATS is (quite rightfully) full of threads where the police are lambasted for killing people where it wasnt warranted. You see it all the time in
threads like "Cop shoots man for wearing blue t-shirt" or whatever.

In the case of unproportionate response from the police - they are taking action against their own constituents, and against the very people they are
meant to protect.

In the case of two autonomous power fighting one another - they have no responsibility to protect the other opposing side. Disproportionate response
is to be expected in war. It is part of war. In fact - it is how wars have been won, and will continue to be won.

Was the bombing of Tokyo, Hiroshima, and Nagasaki disproportionate response? Was the fire bombing of Dresden disproportionate response? Was the
invasion of Germany in 1944 disproportionate response? What about Britain's involvement in Falklands? Or US involvement in Afghanistan and Iraq?

When a weaker side initiates conflict in the hopes that the stronger side will not muster its forces and reply in a disproportionate response, it is
only the weaker side that is to blame. Poking a dog with stick and all that....

I assume (maybe wrongly) that you are american, so imagine if one day the native americans decide they want all their land back. And say they get the
backing of most of the world including the superpowers. So they roll in and bulldozer your home and all your families homes and put you all in a
certain area then start putting restrictions on you...

I’m not going to debate who was there first; Palestinians or Jews. There is enough reference material out there to know whose land it rightfully
is…there is no historical basis for Palestine. What language do Palestinians speak?

I’m not going there tonight….sorry!

Btw this goes for whatever country you're in really as it is only hypothetical...

Now under this context, would you be a terrorist for fighting back?

No…but that’s not the case here and YES I'm an American. Look, regardless whose land you (and they) think it is, indiscriminately firing rockets
DAILY into civilian targets is provocative, disgraceful, and terroristic! If they want a fight then declare war and fire at military targets rather
than children. Do you agree?

Originally posted by alfa1
Quite so.
Disproportionate responses that have been discussed to death elsewhere on the net, and mutitudes before now have indeed poured criticism on those
examples you mention

And yet, disproportional responses have shaped history, and will continue to do so. If you want to win a conflict or if you just want to survive,
sometimes you have to take extreme measures. The is no right or wrong. There is a side that prevails, and a side that loses. If you care more about
the enemy than about yourself, don't be surprised if less-humanitarian opposition takes advantage of it to root you out. No matter how civilized the
world gets, power always wins. If you let your guard down, you get [snipped].

Judging which side in a war is right or wrong is never as easy as looking at statistics. If you really want to judge sides in this conflict look at
who initiated the conflict the majority of the time, and what the stated and implied goals of each side were.

Well your theory may stand correct if were talking about one particular war as a single event, but seing as were talking about a conflict that has
been on and off for the best part of a couple of decades, lets pretend it started in 2000 so we can make reference to my diagram...

Everytime combatants from each side (palestine vs israel) have met,, the outcome has always been the same with palestine carrying the majority of
civilians deaths ( women and children)

i think thats a very strong pattern, if that doesnt show a one side war than i have no idea on earth what could possibly convince you otherwise.
seriously.

More palestinian civilians (women and children) have been injured/killed than Israel by far, thanks to F-16 carpet bombing from the worlds top ten
military power.

Well you are kind of digging yourself a hole here my friend, because if we get into equipment, munitions and capabilities.....its truly unfair that
israel have the ability to target hamas leaders with ease using guided missiles......the ability to cut power and communications (even internet) to
the entire gaza region..which is inhumane i mean dont the media get a chance to do some reporting, or civilians to communicate with loved ones outside
of gaza?

and F-16s in the 100's using high explosives .....yet palestine only has unguided missiles because they have no other means to defend themselves
against such adversity and sophisticated weaponry......you cant blame them for being desperate they are only human....so they use what they got to
protect themselves....with rockets that barely get through anyway due to iron dome....another joint venture with america on israels part.

so to summarise, Israel can strike a severe blow using a multiude of tactical advantages whilst at the same time preventing any blowback/ deflecting
most of the rockets coming in from gaza......unfair if you ask me.

Whats of particular importance is also the number of UN resolutions violated on Israels behalf

come on?, you mean your truly oblivious to the fact that Israel have circumvented many UN resolutions and treaty conditions between them and
palestine?.....what about the border lines of 1967 that israel have breached? pushing palestinians further out of their rightful homes ?
www.israelnationalnews.com...

At least address these facts or do your research. do you disagree that israel are making illegal settlements?

Visual aids are highly prone to bias. I can conjure up enough visual aids to show that Pol Pot was a freaking saint, and to convince any half-wit of
my point of view.

Perhaps in some cases they are, infact i have seen many cases where they are. this not one of them. These are numbers, and numbers pose mathematical
proof......theres no bias when it comes to mathematical numbers trust me.

I dont need to convince anyone of anything. The visual aids i presented are not cartoons or illustrations they are STATISTICAL figures, explain how
they are biased lol. or at least the ratios

I’m not going to debate who was there first; Palestinians or Jews. There is enough reference material out there to know whose land it rightfully
is…there is no historical basis for Palestine. What language do Palestinians speak? I’m not going there tonight….sorry!

I don't think you get the point... The reason I used america was because we all know american indians are the "rightful" owners of the land... But
that was hundreds of years ago... You can't just kick up a fuss and demand it back hundreds of years later! So even if isreal are the "rightful"
owners they can't just go get it back when they feel like it.

No…but that’s not the case here and YES I'm an American. Look, regardless whose land you (and they) think it is, indiscriminately firing rockets
DAILY into civilian targets is provocative, disgraceful, and terroristic! If they want a fight then declare war and fire at military targets rather
than children. Do you agree?

What do you mean no? How is this not the same as the american indians demanding their land back? And taking it by force and destroying your homes...
Do you deny isreal has done these things? Do you really think palestine can compete in a out and out war? Come on now be reasonable... Are you saying
that because they don't have the same military might they should just shut up and take it up the ass?

Should they fire at civilians? Of course not but their weaponry is not as accurate... They have to deal with what they have, right?

Imagine it the scenario I presented that you also had very little firepower.

I mean it is like your saying the one with the most guns has to be right...

I don't think you get the point... The reason I used america was because we all know american indians are the "rightful" owners of the land...
But that was hundreds of years ago... You can't just kick up a fuss and demand it back hundreds of years later! So even if isreal are the "rightful"
owners they can't just go get it back when they feel like it.

Agreements were made…the lines were drawn. If Indians were firing rockets into Texas you can bet your arse there would be a disproportionate
response.

What do you mean no? How is this not the same as the american indians demanding their land back?

Because it’s not their land…it belongs to the Israelis.

And taking it by force and destroying your homes... Do you deny isreal has done these things? Do you really think palestine can compete in a
out and out war? Come on now be reasonable... Are you saying that because they don't have the same military might they should just shut up and take it
up the ass?

That’s how war works! They were given their land and its over…live in it and stop firing rockets!

Should they fire at civilians? Of course not but their weaponry is not as accurate... They have to deal with what they have, right?

Give me a break!! Do you know the definition of terrorism???

Imagine it the scenario I presented that you also had very little firepower.

I mean it is like your saying the one with the most guns has to be right...

In this case the one with the most guns HAPPENS TO BE RIGHT….IMO of course. To the victor goes the spoils! Sucks to lose!!

Originally posted by ISeekTruth101
Well your theory may stand correct if were talking about one particular war as a single event

Not really. It stands correct if you tally-up the events since 1947.

Originally posted by ISeekTruth101
Everytime combatants from each side (palestine vs israel) have met,, the outcome has always been the same with palestine carrying the majority of
civilians deaths ( women and children)

Again that proves absolutely nothing, except perhaps that it is Israel's main priority to protect its people.

Originally posted by ISeekTruth101
i think thats a very strong pattern, if that doesnt show a one side war than i have no idea on earth what could possibly convince you otherwise.
seriously.

Statistics convince me of only one thing - you can spin them to support whichever side you wish.

Originally posted by ISeekTruth101
Well you are kind of digging yourself a hole here my friend, because if we get into equipment, munitions and capabilities.....its truly unfair that
israel have the ability to target hamas leaders with ease using guided missiles......the ability to cut power and communications (even internet) to
the entire gaza region..which is inhumane i mean dont the media get a chance to do some reporting, or civilians to communicate with loved ones outside
of gaza?.

Oh the media seems to be communicating from Gaza easily enough. Don't you worry about them - that dog will always find its bone.

As far as it being unfair that Israel has the capability - Palestinians and their Arab brotheren had far greater military capability than Israel in
1948. What did they do with it? Try to destroy any trace of a Jewish state and people. Needless to say how bad they failed. If Israel wanted to
destroy the Palestinian state and people today, it could do so in several minutes. In fact it could do so since about 1970. And over 40 years later,
here we are, and Palestinians are still there.

Originally posted by ISeekTruth101
yet palestine only has unguided missiles because they have no other means to defend themselves against such adversity and sophisticated
weaponry

What exactly is Hamas defending themselves and the Palestinians from when they fire missiles at Israeli CIVILIAN cities?

Originally posted by ISeekTruth101
......you cant blame them for being desperate they are only human....

Actually I can. They are humans who don't give a **** about their own people to achieve political ends. It is not my concern how desperate they
are.

If you care about killing the opponent more than you care about the life of your own people, well then you can't really talk about peace can you?

Originally posted by ISeekTruth101
so to summarise, Israel can strike a severe blow using a multiude of tactical advantages whilst at the same time preventing any blowback/ deflecting
most of the rockets coming in from gaza......unfair if you ask me.

Don't start sh*t you can't handle if you ask me. Screw fairness, its about survival and Darwinism.

Originally posted by ISeekTruth101
what about the border lines of 1967 that israel have breached?

What about the Arab alliance that couldn't give a **** about 1967 border lines. Lets say Israel did not attack in 1967. Are you to tell me that the
Arab forces would have stayed where they were, after mobilizing hundreds of thousands of forces poised for an invasion? What were they massing on
Israel's border for? A ****ing parade? The Arabs broke the terms of the agreement before Israel did, and after Israel tried to alert the UN about
it, the UN turned a blind eye.

Originally posted by ISeekTruth101
These are numbers, and numbers pose mathematical proof......theres no bias when it comes to mathematical numbers trust me.

We are not talking about the scientific method here. We are talking about international politics.

Agreements were made…the lines were drawn. If Indians were firing rockets into Texas you can bet your arse there would be a disproportionate
response.

Agreements at the barrel of a gun do not count... Still you are not getting the point... I'm not talking about making the indians like the
palestinians I'm putting them in the role of the isreales...

So let me ask again... Just say for instance that the american indians went to russia and china and asked for their help... They agreed and so did a
load of other countries and america was defeated... Now the ones left are put into a small area of america and because you dare fight back you are
caged in and you have restrictions on what you can have and who can aid you etc... So the american indians are the isreales and you are the
Palestinians... You are firing rockets over and whatever else you have, are you a terrorist?

Because it’s not their land…it belongs to the Israelis.

Hundreds of years ago! Just like the american indians owned america hundreds of years ago! I think you will deny this fact till the end...

That’s how war works! They were given their land and its over…live in it and stop firing rockets!

HA HA yeah I'm sure you would be saying that if the same happened to your country! I mean now they got given land? I guess the isreales are generous
huh? lol...

Give me a break!! Do you know the definition of terrorism???

What does that have to do with it? They are defending their land... They are the ones that had lived there for hundreds of years! They have every
right to fight and you would do just the same even if you will never admit it...

In this case the one with the most guns HAPPENS TO BE RIGHT….IMO of course. To the victor goes the spoils! Sucks to lose!!

LOL Really, that is a crazy philosophy... So when the jews mention the holocaust do you say to them that it sucks to lose? You will not be swayed or
listen to reason so our convo ends here... Have a nice day...

In the last year, Israel's action against Hamas resulted in about 50 civilian deaths. That is about the number of deaths attributed to Assad's
actions in Syria in the last two days. Assad and the rebels fighting in Syria killed more civilians in a year than Israel had since 1947.

Why are all the bleeding-heart liberals and humanitarians suddendly so concerned with Israel's action in Gaza. You can't sleep at night because of
Gaza? Why aren't you criticizing both sides fueling the conflict in Syria - Assad's Baathists and their Hezbolah and Iranian supporters on one
side, and Saudi and Arab Emirates' sponsored rebels on the other.

Why did everyone suddenly forget about the Arab brotheren slaughtering each other in a meat grinder like there is no tomorrow, and get so roused up
about Israel's anti-Hamas operation. Syria was generating less discussion and criticism in a week than Israel is in a single day.

Is it that you care about the poor oppressed innocent Muslims dieing? Or is it that you have an agenda and you will take any opportunity to demonize
Israel - damned if they do damned if they don't. Neither Israel's actions, nor their scope, matches what is going on in a dozen other ongoing
conflicts around the world. But forget all that.

Maloy can i remind you that this thread is about numbers, assocciated with israel-gaza.

No need to derail the thread and go into an endless array of topics surrounding other areas of the middle east, now i believe it is you who are the
one being biased and using your views of other events to manipulate this topic on your favour.

At least keep the information subject to both parties in this topic palestine and israel.

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