I've heard this narrative before but I don't really buy it. If Layne was ruined by Marciano and Charles in '51 it means that he was already ruined when he beat Charles in '52 (I realise the decision over Charles was disputed, but a poll of the ringside press put the consensus at a 4-3-3 win for Charles - too close to be a blatant robbery). Likewise, it means that Roland LaStarza earned his title shot with a split decision win against a ruined fighter.

As for Valdes, I don't think there's any evidence that his eye injury was suffered against Satterfield. When it was discovered in 1960, Valdes himself said that he'd had it for 10 years.

-Here's the round by round:

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-At this rate we seem to be making a case for Layne actually being better than we thought. Charles may not have been up to par, but it does mention Layne having improvements and fighting hard, also appears to be at his regular fighting weight.

-LaStarza certainly took advantage of the vulnerable Layne's high ranking after Charles II to set up his desired rematch against Marciano. As for the match being close, Layne was still a rough customer, especially against someone who probably lacked big time power. Articles said Layne wrestled LaStarza around early but tired, and took a beating in the late rounds. LaStarza also traded wins with Rocky Jones and Bucceroni, he was good fighter and all, looked really great against Marciano, but seemed rather erratic. I tihnk he could only get up for Maricnao, and had no interest mixing it up with the other contenders. He called out Rocky for the longest time yet didn't bother making a move until Layne jumped up the rankings.

-It looks like the true vanishing point for Layne was after the third Charles fight, where he took another bad beating. He was thrown in against Walls just a few months later, and also appeared to be ill with the flu, insisting on a postponement. He lost 16 lbs in between the two Walls matches, not far apart. Interesting stuff, it seems Layne went hot/cold after the first Charles fight, and finally hit the wall after the third one.

- He claimed as much but I don't know. Valdez certainly never returned to form after Satterfield. It was one of the nastier eye injuries I've seen, up there with Vargas/Mosley. In addition, he just took a nasty beating from one of the harder hitters in history. Anyway a fading Valdez in his mid 30s was still beating up lower tier top 10 guys in the late 50s, so he certainly had more longetivity than you were giving him credit for.

Liston had a wonderful jab. A real potent step in jab. Superb against upright, conventional boxers stranded at range. There is not much evidence that it was the kind of jab that was effective against Awkward crouching crowding opponents trained by Charlie Goldman.

Remember Joe Louis against charlie Goldman trained Atrturo Godoy?

There is zero evidence that Marciano could handle a 200lbs plus hevayweight with an 84" jab who could match him for power,and was , in his prime.

Patterson fought behind a peekaboo guard, his stance was more square on and he dipped rather than crouched. Marciano fought behind his shoulder and elbow guard, almost completely side on. There is no comparison.

More importantly Floyd was also totaly frozen and psyched out against Liston. Both times.

How old was Liston when he fought Martin? Marciano at the same age might have fared the same. You pick a green Liston v Marshall,[ whom Liston dominated later ,]and an old one v Martin to make your case. Marciano retired in his prime ,it would be interesting to see him pushing 40 taking on the young tigers.

Marciano was in danger of being stopped on cuts against Keene Simmons and Charles yet he is going to take all Sonny can dish out?

Remind me when Marciano met a 200lbs plus heavy duty puncher in his prime? One who also possesses decent skills and a telegraph pole left jab?

If you read my post I said unfortunately Liston folded up when in tough and that crack in his armor would be a hard weakness (wide crack in his armor) against Marciano, like I said before Marciano beat guys 6"4 and and guys 220-250lbs but when he won the title the top #1 contenders happened to the smaller better men, Archie beat some very big men on his way to Marciano, so did Walcott guys 6"6 and Charles 6'3 and Lastarza got rid of Dan B.....

Marciano defended his title against the better men who beat the bigger men...I do think Marciano would have had a much easier time breaking down Baker,Valdez then the ATG Moore,Charles and Walcott, even Layne was 34-1-1 and beat the man who beat and drew with him when he faced Rocky and Layne was called by Nat Fleischer as the next Dempsey and next champ but the sudden clean and brutal KO ruined Layne as did fight one with Charles (emptied Ezz tank) war 1 with Walcott (brutal KO) and the 53-3 LaStarza beat everyman to beat him except Rocky but was ruined in fight 2, and Archie took a horrific beating head and body (and was never the same) even though he was still a great and went 38-4-2 post Rocky.....Rocky beat the best men available 5 #1 contenders should he apologize that the bigger men were not the better men of the era

I see Marciano on the inside of Liston, breaking him down and after Sonny throws down his best the little monster keeps throwing punches in bunches with ill intent and Sonny gets tired of the game

If you read my post I said unfortunately Liston folded up when in tough and that crack in his armor would be a hard weakness (wide crack in his armor) against Marciano, like I said before Marciano beat guys 6"4 and and guys 220-250lbs but when he won the title the top #1 contenders happened to the smaller better men, Archie beat some very big men on his way to Marciano, so did Walcott guys 6"6 and Charles 6'3 and Lastarza got rid of Dan B.....

Marciano defended his title against the better men who beat the bigger men...I do think Marciano would have had a much easier time breaking down Baker,Valdez then the ATG Moore,Charles and Walcott, even Layne was 34-1-1 and beat the man who beat and drew with him when he faced Rocky and Layne was called by Nat Fleischer as the next Dempsey and next champ but the sudden clean and brutal KO ruined Layne as did fight one with Charles (emptied Ezz tank) war 1 with Walcott (brutal KO) and the 53-3 LaStarza beat everyman to beat him except Rocky but was ruined in fight 2, and Archie took a horrific beating head and body (and was never the same) even though he was still a great and went 38-4-2 post Rocky.....Rocky beat the best men available 5 #1 contenders should he apologize that the bigger men were not the better men of the era

I see Marciano on the inside of Liston, breaking him down and after Sonny throws down his best the little monster keeps throwing punches in bunches with ill intent and Sonny gets tired of the game

This is based on fair observation rather than assumption and generalisation.

To be honest about things Marciano gives Sonny a tough fight any way you look at it.

Those that say Marciano gets blown away won't aknowledge Liston had competative fights. They won't aknowledge the frozen, psyched out factor effect on performers who let them selves down and allowed Liston to have his way.

I would not dream of using the Marciano v Walcott rematch as evidence of Rockys prowess because it was a blow out over a good opponent who never got going and his heart was not in it.....yet Listons entire career is based on two such fights!

If you read my post I said unfortunately Liston folded up when in tough and that crack in his armor would be ahard weakness (wide crack in his armor) against Marciano, like I said before Marciano beat guys 6"4 and and guys 220-250lbs but when he won the title the top #1 contenders happened to the smaller better men, Archie beat some very big men on his way to Marciano, so did Walcott guys 6"6 and Charles 6'3 and Lastarza got rid of Dan B.....

Marciano defended his title against the better men who beat the bigger men...I do think Marciano would have had a much easier time breaking down Baker,Valdez then the ATG Moore,Charles and Walcott, even Layne was 34-1-1 and beat the man who beat and drew with him when he faced Rocky and Layne was called by Nat Fleischer as the next Dempsey and next champ but the sudden clean and brutal KO ruined Layne as did fight one with Charles (emptied Ezz tank) war 1 with Walcott (brutal KO) and the 53-3 LaStarza beat everyman to beat him except Rocky but was ruined in fight 2, and Archie took a horrific beating head and body (and was never the same) even though he was still a great and went 38-4-2 post Rocky.....Rocky beat the best men available 5 #1 contenders should he apologize that the bigger men were not the better men of the era

I see Marciano on the inside of Liston, breaking him down and after Sonny throws down his best the little monster keeps throwing punches in bunches with ill intent and Sonny gets tired of the game

Did Liston fold up when his jaw was broke ,or did he carry on to the end?

Did Liston fold up when the hardest punching heavyweight around broke his nose, or did he fight back and stop him? TWICE!

Once again you pick, an old past prime Liston to make your case.

Ever heard of the expression level playing field?
It's prime for prime!

According to Moore's mother he was two years older than he admitted to , that makes him 41 when he fought Marciano.

Moore admitted he had no legs for that fight and hadn't had for years .
He was a natural LHVY who capitalised on the paucity of the heavy weight talent to extend his career. Eight months prior to the Marciano fight, and in Moore's previous one Archie scaled inside the 175lbs limit in a LHvy title fight with Bobo Olson Three of Moore's last six opponents , prior to his heavyweight title challenge ,were light heavies.
Do you think he would do any better against Liston than he did with Rocky?
I very much doubt he would have floored Sonny ,as he did Marciano.

Marciano needs to apologise for nothing , the point is when posters make statements like,"There is not much evidence that it was the kind of jab that was effective against Awkward crouching crowding opponents trained by Charlie Goldman".The obvious response is

" There is zero evidence that Marciano could handle a 200lbs plus heavweight with an 84" jab who could match him for power,and was , in his prime". And I made it.

Sam Silverman who promoted a lot of Marciano's early fights said Rocky could have just as hard a time fighting also rans as top contenders.

Marciano NEVER beat a big heavyweight who was his equal in power, Liston did .The four names I mentioned ,Baker,Wallace,Henry, Valdes , were rated heavies before Marciano was champ he met None of them.I would pick him to beat them but then I would pick Liston to beat them, and he is proven.against big heavies.

This is based on fair observation rather than assumption and generalisation.

To be honest about things Marciano gives Sonny a tough fight any way you look at it.

Those that say Marciano gets blown away won't aknowledge Liston had competative fights. They won't aknowledge the frozen, psyched out factor effect on performers who let them selves down and allowed Liston to have his way.

I would not dream of using the Marciano v Walcott rematch as evidence of Rockys prowess because it was a blow out over a good opponent who never got going and his heart was not in it.....yet Listons entire career is based on two such fights!

Who says Marciano gets blown away? I don't,I say he gets beat because stylistically Liston is all wrong for him.
You talk about Liston's opponents as though they were all beat before he got in the ring was that the case with Williams?Valdes? King, Besmanoff,Dejohn?
Liston had competititive fights who said he didnt?

Would you say Marcianos' defences against Moore,Walcott and Charles were non - competitive? How about Lastarza 1 & Lowry1?
Competitive or not?
And you then talk about assumptions, and generalisations.Oh my!

Liston walked you down with the jab. He hurt you on the way in with it then he was within punching range. Thats ok against a conventional stand up boxer but Marciano was unconventional. When did Liston keep a guy "away" with the jab? It was not a "keep you away" jab. Joe Louis also had a great walk you down jab but it wasnt much use against Arturo Godoy or Tony Galento. Both strong crouching maulers. Likewise Liston vs marciano IMO.

Liston would use his jab but since it was not as fast as Ali's (because it was a diferent type of jab) would'nt he have less sucsess with the jab than Ali says he had with Rocky? IMO I think Liston would use his jab less because he would strugle to find the room and land cleanly with it..

Liston was very effective boxing on the retreat, he is spoilt for choice here, Marciano HAS to get inside, and he is going to pay a heavy price to do it.

Liston had a wonderful jab. A real potent step in jab. Superb against upright, conventional boxers stranded at range. There is not much evidence that it was the kind of jab that was effective against Awkward crouching crowding opponents trained by Charlie Goldman.

Remember Joe Louis against charlie Goldman trained Atrturo Godoy?

You need to watch a 40+ Liston against ,come forward ,durable George S**** Iron Johnson,and then tell me he can't land his jab against short guys,he set Johnson up for combos with it all night.

Patterson fought behind a peekaboo guard, his stance was more square on and he dipped rather than crouched. Marciano fought behind his shoulder and elbow guard, almost completely side on. There is no comparison.

More importantly Floyd was also totaly frozen and psyched out against Liston. Both times.

So Marciano's superior speed and defense ( clearly superior to Patterson's ) would make the difference … Maybe if Sunny had Kryptonite in his trunks he would defeat the man whose fanatical followers believe defies all logic and would beat a bigger, stronger, harder hitting fighter with a far longer reach, a stylistic advantage and a far faster started ..

So Marciano's superior speed and defense ( clearly superior to Patterson's ) would make the difference … Maybe if Sunny had Kryptonite in his trunks he would defeat the man whose fanatical followers believe defies all logic and would beat a bigger, stronger, harder hitting fighter with a far longer reach, a stylistic advantage and a far faster started ..

My only question ? What color was Rocky's cape ?

If Marciano was hard to hit with the jab, how come he had two black eyes ,and was very marked up facially against the relic of Joe Louis? Rocky stated that,
"I couldnt avoid Louis's jabs ,I just had to take them".

Q .Who would we say had the best jab ? A shot, 37years old Louis, or a prime Liston ?
Toughie.

Some of these Rocky boys are in serious denial.
Here is some ammo for them.
"A man that I admire tremendously,is Rocky Marciano, Marciano was clumsy, had two left feet, but he was the most determined Heavyweight champion I've ever seen.

He didn't win his fights because he was a better fighter.

He won his fights because of his determination,he never stopped trying, he never gave up, and he never lost."