Post by AndrewCrossett on May 5, 2010 13:29:57 GMT -5

Buffy was being pushed, but not forced. It's clear from what she says in this issue that she does NOT regret the sex. It was voluntary, even if it's not normally what she would have chosen to do under those circumstances.

She's guilty of making a mistake... the biggest one she's ever made. It's clear she wants to make it right, though. I have no further moral fears regarding her, but she still has to make right the consequences of her actions. That's gonna take some doing. We're talking millions of lives here, and still going. Hopefully, Spike can help her.

Angel, on the other hand, is a different story. Meltzer says in his BuffyFest interview that Angel is redeemable "after this issue," but in my view that's only going to be possible if Twilight releasing its hold on him results in a MUCH different way of thinking than he displayed in this issue. He would have stood there sipping a Margarita and watching the whole world die if Buffy hadn't talked him into helping.

Post by jellymoff on May 5, 2010 13:45:24 GMT -5

I enjoyed the issue, but I agree that Angel still doesn't come out of this looking that great. He seems like he is very willing to stay in Twilight and watch the world die. I really hope Joss does something to make me have faith in Angel again.

Post by jellymoff on May 5, 2010 14:47:50 GMT -5

I want to know why Willow and Buffy, and even Dawn, seemed to recognize Spike's big armored tank thing before he even stepped out of it. Have they seen it before?

And why does Spike have Goth nail-polish and weird rings on random fingers?

It appears that Willow can see him in a crystal ball sort of way, at least that what I thought. I assumed that the glowly light showed her who was inside. As for how everyone knew it was him, not sure.

Also, I thought black nails were something we have seen on Spike before. Wasn't there an episode where he was painting them?

Post by krazyxxxdj on May 5, 2010 15:38:47 GMT -5

Will someone be kind enough to give a short summary of what happens? I won't be getting to the shop this week (work and finals). How did they get back, what exactly is this Twilight place, is it raining demons all over the world or just near them, and where does Spike fit in? etcThank you in advance

Post by jellymoff on May 5, 2010 15:41:25 GMT -5

Can we assume that Connor must be dead, or at least on another plane, since Angel didn't show the slightest concern that the world was ending with his son presumably standing on it somewhere?

Or, this being a Dark Horse comic, will the ATS characters just be treated as if they never existed?

I hope that they don't just discount the existence of the Angel characters. Angel's total lack of regard for Connor makes me think that he is still Cuckoo for Cocoa Puffs. I am sure that they are being very careful about even mentioning any ATS characters in this books as to not mess with what IDW is doing. Their book is very Connor-centric right now, so I get the feeling that they will leave us in the dark on the whole subject.

Post by thedarkshape on May 5, 2010 15:45:57 GMT -5

I sort of got the impression from the way Angel was speaking that Buffy and Angel could bring people back in the Twilight realm... maybe that they can die in our universe, but be reborn there. I don't know, but some of his talk struck me as such. And it would at least fit with his total baffling disregard for Connor.

Post by Emmie on May 5, 2010 15:56:47 GMT -5

Review: How to Redeem a Hero

I almost didn't buy this comic today. It's the first time in forever that I didn't make it a priority to go to my local comic store. But I'm glad I did because it was great to read this and feel a moment of clarity. My primary motivation for getting up and driving across town was the rumored appearance of Spike and yes, he never fails to satisfy (when not being written by Willingham).

Where to begin? Expectations. This issue is the one where we're supposed to get answers, where we hope that Buffy and Angel will be in character, where we hope to learn why Angel is Twilight, where we hope to have the distressing consent and rape metaphor issues of #33 and #34 addressed, where we get a philosophical discussion between Angel and Buffy.

Good news: Buffy is in character again. (Kinda. For the most part.) Buffy remembers her priority, the reason she fights: "That's what I need to fight for. Not happiness. Not humanity. Them. Those people [her friends]." Yes, Buffy has always found the strength to fight by prioritizing her friends and she returns to them to help save the day. However, fighting for humanity is also what she does because her friends symbolize humanity. So yeah, not a well-written line at all. It ignores the reality of her heart because Buffy does care about the people.

Buffy delays discussing the issue of what happened in #33 and #34--"Do not talk about it yet. We're not talking about it yet"--but doesn't stop herself from referencing how satisfied she feels, so the consent and rape metaphor that was making some readers feel ill hasn't been addressed and we also get a reminder of how great it felt to have mind, body and spirit violated by the Universe (which doesn't make its presence felt in this issue). See, it's not rape if you enjoy it. What's worse, I believe this delaying tactic means the consent issues, the rape metaphor, Angel deceiving Buffy and corralling villains to kill Slayers and "push" her into becoming this Übermensch--it all won't be addressed.

This is standard protocol: good guys do something bad, the apocalypse happens and they bond over fighting side by side to save the world, working out their anger through fighting literal evil; once the apocalypse has passed, they look at each other and realize how those issues before weren't as big as saving each other's lives and thus decide to move past it and let go because the bad guy has demonstrated an ultimate good and deserves forgiveness. Normally I wouldn't expect this of the Buffyverse because actions have consequences and Buffy's indignation would be expected, though she would eventually forgive as she always does, but I'm not hopeful because...

Then you get to the horrifyingly bad. Angel is not in-character. At all. Sure, his voice kinda sounds right, but it's the words coming out of his mouth and the philosophy he's spouting that spin your head around and make you go buzzah at the pod!Angel. Angel continues to work hard convincing Buffy they're in paradise and belong there. Buffy remains suspicious and demands to see her friends, ripping a tear in their Twilight reality to see what's happening to them. Angel's reaction? Dumbfounded. He didn't realize that his and Buffy's ascension would result in this chaos. He promises "we can help them. We can fix it. We can fix everything, Buffy," but his proposal isn't to save them. No, it's to sacrifice them for "the universe we're going to make... After all these centuries--[there'll be] no more fighting--no more failing--no more dying... It's not just that we get to be together, Buffy--we finally get to be happy." Angel's solution is ultimately selfish, the world is being destroyed by his and Buffy's orgasmic and pornographic (no argument: it's softcore porn, folks) ascension, but he feels no responsibility for his actions. All the people dying down below "can handle this, Buffy. It's no different than when you died. They'll survive. They always do."

Buffy (because she's in character) rejects his proposal: "You're just saying that because you can live without knowing the outcome. I can't." Angel insists: "The outcome is beyond us. The only absolute in the earth is that it will end." Yeah, okay pod!Angel, glad to see you're not at all worried that the world is ending and your son, Connor, is going to die. Okaaaay. Angel has given in to destiny, negating Buffy's insistence that the reason she fights is for her friends, to keep them safe. He insists staying in Twilight means she is "fighting for them. That's why you were sent here! This is the end. This is the beginning of us. You don't have to choose. The Universe already chose us! All we have to do is leave behind the lower plane." Leave behind humanity to die, leave behind free will because the Universe has chosen, leave behind your family, those you love more than your own life: Connor and Dawn and Xander and Willow and Faith and Giles.

Angel is now the voice of destiny and submission to that destiny. It's not shocking that he'd lose his selfless principles for a selfish reason, that urge has always been there. He wanted to "screw the world" to save Fred from Illyria overtaking her. He wanted to, but he didn't. The key difference there--he didn't want to "screw the world" for himself, but for an innocent. Because Angel saves souls. He's screwed over his friends for the sake of Connor, essentially mindraping them in order to save Connor's life and very sanity. But when it comes to Angel's wants and needs, he doesn't believe he deserves forgiveness. He doesn't deserve happiness at the cost of others. That's why he beseeched the Oracles to turn back the clock in I Will Remember You--he gave up his personal happiness with Buffy, his humanity, to save her and others. He offered his life to save Darla. Angel is ultimately selfless even in his ultimate selfishness--his acts of selflessness are inspired by those he loves (just as Buffy refused to "kill Dawn"). Whoever Twangel is, it's not Angel. This is not Angel being written as faithful to character. Even when he reached that darkness of leading Drogyn to death by his own fangs, of ordering Lindsey murdered, his ultimate goal wasn't selfish. It wasn't about himself. He expected to die for stopping the Circle of the Black Thorn. He expected to go down fighting for stopping (or even if it just was delaying) their apocalyptic plans. Because the world is worth more than his life. And it's damned sure worth more than his happiness.

Buffy's wrong, Angel couldn't "live without knowing the outcome" of the world, but most especially of Connor's life. Not at the price of his happiness. This isn't Angel. This is anti-Angel. He's doing the exact opposite of who he is and all he's professed to be. The philosophic mouthpiece he's been forced into becoming (perhaps by the Universe, that's the only textual excuse I can fathom) is the exact opposite of his most profound epiphany and mission to save souls.

"If there is no great glorious end to all this, if - nothing we do matters, - then all that matters is what we do. 'cause that's all there is. What we do, now, today. - I fought for so long. For redemption, for a reward - finally just to beat the other guy, but... I never got it... All I wanna do is help. I wanna help because - I don't think people should suffer, as they do. Because, if there is no bigger meaning, then the smallest act of kindness - is the greatest thing in the world." - Epiphany

The Universe has convinced almost everyone--Willow, Giles, but most especially Angel--that there is a "great glorious end to all this", that there is a "bigger meaning." But that does not negate what Angel cares about. Saving souls, stopping suffering.

Buffy saves the world. Angel saves souls. Twangel is a selfish git who says "screw the world" and means it. He wants his reward, his happiness, to stay in Twilight with Buffy so they can evolve. Buffy says "F#*% evolution." But Twangel is still the spouting the Universe's agenda--anyone else getting flashbacks to WWII and the Nazis Aryan' race agenda? I'm not bringing up this context to be purely controversial. The callback is literal. "Screw the world", let the lower plane burn so that the supremacist beings may ascend to a perfect, pure existence absent from the pollution of imperfect lower beings. Angel and Buffy are the master race and no other living beings matter.

Buffy was marginally redeemed in this issue (I say marginally because the story hasn't addressed a majority of the concerns it's raised). Meanwhile, Angel's character--the core of his self--has been decimated. Why? Apparently because he's in service to Buffy's story. Buffy gets to be the hero. It's her 'verse and Angel's only here to make her ultimately look good. Screw that. Angel is a protagonist with over fives years of history as a hero in his own right with no Buffy influencing him. But this comic doesn't respect his history, his character, instead warping him to fit its plot contrivances. The only out is if Angel isn't behind the wheel because the Universe is driving. Pod!Angel, Twangel. Whoever this is, it's not Angel. This person only cares about being with Buffy. He's even willing to sacrifice paradise if it means being with her. Angel doesn't realize he needs to go back to save the world, but only goes because Buffy goes. He spends all his energy convincing her to stay and give in to destiny. Buffy says 'screw that, I'm leaving' and so Angel buckles down and smirks, "Okay. Let's go."

Buffy returns triumphant and full of remorse. Angel? I don't see Angel in this comic (and no, that's not a dig at Jeanty's art). Willow sneers to Angel, "Can I just mention that I preferred Angelus?" Me, too, Willow. Me, too. Because Angelus was actually in-character for Angel and received a proper character arc to set-up this change. Twangel is a MacGuffin, a Straw Villain who exists to only offset Buffy's development, but has no earnest story devoted to establishing his own in-character motivation. Bad writing. This is like Angel's appearance in Chosen, only the disregard for Angel's POV and development based on his experiences in LA have been multiplied to the degree of exponentially prefixey.

Final page, Spike appears triumphant and acting (so far) in-character. So Buffy's back (and this is what I care for the most, y'all know how I love Buffy), Spike's finally here (this is what I've been waiting for what feels like forever) and Angel's character has been assassinated (I should've known I couldn't get everything I wanted--looks like Angel is the collateral damage here along with Andrew and Amy it seems--yeah, they get slashed down. Andrew's death is reminiscent of Anya's in Chosen... if he did die). It seems like Joss' reassurance to IDW that Angel's role in their comics won't be affected will play true simply because Twangel isn't Angel.

How do you redeem a hero? You attempt it. Buffy made great strides towards redemption in this issue while Angel forgot he even needed to fight for redemption (wait, is Kelley Armstrong now co-writing this comic?).

Questions that remain:

- Does Buffy already know Spike is undead again?- Will Angel's OOCness be textually relevant? Will Angel remember he loves his son, Connor?- Will Buffy get her indignation on for Angel being a arrogant, lying, manipulative douche all season?- Are Amy and Andrew really dead?- Will Giles get taken to task for once again being forced to play the role of patronizing mentor who refuses to trust anyone?- Will the text clarify the actual source of Buffy's and Angel's powers? Buffy wearing the outfits of dead Slayers in Twilight raises the question of whether Angel or Willow is right about her powers being sourced from dead Slayers.- How many people in the world died because of the Übermensch sexcapades? Not how many Scoobies and their the-enemy-of-Twilight-is-my-friend allies (Amy, the General), but the actual people of the world. While Meltzer may enjoy writing that Buffy doesn't care about humanity, the readers actually do care and would like to know the casualties aren't being treated casually.- Will the text address the consent issues and rape metaphor, or will the plot necessity steam roll over them with all the sensitivity of a freight train of dramatic prioritization?

It's going to be a long wait until September. We'll see how many of these questions will be addressed in Joss' final arc. Sadly, Season 8 has taught me to not expect much. I suppose that's a good thing. Lowered expectations means you won't have far to fall because you've lost hope for something better.

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Post by VampSlayer on May 5, 2010 16:46:24 GMT -5

How do you redeem a hero? You attempt it. Buffy made great strides towards redemption in this issue while Angel forgot he even needed to fight for redemption (wait, is Kelley Armstrong now co-writing this comic?).

This got me laughing so hard. xD Great post, Emmie. Loved every sentence of it.

I haven't read the issue yet, and I plan on taking my time getting to. This arc just makes no sense to me. It seems like it just suddenly popped out of no where. The Universe is the big bad?! Sounds like a bunch of bull to me. Sounds like the Buffyverse has run out of interesting villains. I still hope that Angel isn't Angel. He just isn't himself. And his Twilight arc makes no sense. At. All. It's stupid, and just a way of trying to surprise us with his reveal. And yes, it did surprise us... In a bad way.

Glad to hear Buffy is in character (Which is something that should have always been.). And that Spike shows up. Maybe he and Joss can save Season Eight together.

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Post by galoshes on May 5, 2010 17:06:56 GMT -5

Can I just say- Angel has always wanted freedom, on some level, from the responsibility. He can't be stalwart. He's fallible. Vampire. With. A. Soul. Don't you remember that he once (actually, many times) griped about not ever being able to deliver a final blow? His notion that they could make everything right must be a cross-reality suggestion, meaning that perhaps that world might end to spell a better future for whatever they could repair.

And I'm sorry, Angel was convinced he was right and then Buffy changed his mind. How is that unbecoming of his character? It's exactly him! That sheer look of disappointment in Buffy's refusal to remain followed by the very serious look of focus, a la every single time he renewed and clarified his mission statement in the show were perfectly in line with the characterization developed in both the show and comic.

And frankly, we shouldn't even speculate about Connor until the timelines are clarified.

Ultimately it was a near flawless issue. I am hoping for more answers, but they left us hanging at just the right point.

Perhaps this series will propel Angel into another fit of soul searching. Could that be the point here? His character sent LA to hell and he wanted out afterwords, so he accepts this Twilight role. now he has a new goal of redemption. I don't know.

Post by kamw30 on May 5, 2010 17:20:21 GMT -5

Will someone be kind enough to give a short summary of what happens? I won't be getting to the shop this week (work and finals). How did they get back, what exactly is this Twilight place, is it raining demons all over the world or just near them, and where does Spike fit in? etcThank you in advance

I don't know how this works (rules/spoilers etc.)so I've just sent you a summary that I did for someone on dial-up. Hope that helps :-)

Post by AndrewCrossett on May 5, 2010 18:13:35 GMT -5

There was a question in the letter column of this issue, the answer to which pretty much explicitly says that Buffy knows everything Andrew knows. So yes, Buffy knows about Spike. I don't know if her comment ("Oh, this is gonna be bad") is because she knows Spike is in that tank and doesn't want to see him (maybe because she doesn't want to deal with the Angel/Buffy/Spike triangle right now), or because she simply has a different take than Willow on whether a giant vehicle crashing through the wall is a good thing or not.

- Will the text clarify the actual source of Buffy's and Angel's powers? Buffy wearing the outfits of dead Slayers in Twilight raises the question of whether Angel or Willow is right about her powers being sourced from dead Slayers.

I think the Scythe must have something to do with it.

Kind of wondering how long Buffy and Angel are going to keep their powers if they're not going along with the Universe's plan (and I say again, Universe as Big Bad = lame), or if the Universe will resort to more extreme measures to bring them back in line.

- How many people in the world died because of the Übermensch sexcapades? Not how many Scoobies and their the-enemy-of-Twilight-is-my-friend allies (Amy, the General), but the actual people of the world. While Meltzer may enjoy writing that Buffy doesn't care about humanity, the readers actually do care and would like to know the casualties aren't being treated casually.

I really, really hope they don't "nerf" the consequences and just happily announce that "we stopped it before anyone really died" or something like that. The ecological disasters alone would have killed tens of thousands at least, and the six portals spewing demon armies would have killed millions of people who weren't Slayers or powerful witches.

A low body count here would be cheating to try and excuse Angel and Buffy's actions.

Personally, I'd like to know what Angel meant by: "You ARE fighting for them. That's why you were sent here! This is the end. The end of what's down there, and the beginning of a new era. The beginning of us."

....Aaaaand how does this constitute "fighting for them" again?

Oh, and I'm still waiting to find out why Willow and the Slayers got their powers back how and when they did. Did the demon invasion tip the balance again toward evil and bring back the need for the Slayer army?

Post by kamw30 on May 5, 2010 18:46:16 GMT -5

Once again, just a random wondering.

Given the cover of #37 is supposedly a hark back to an earlier season, could the pimp-jewellery, black-nailed, red-shirted Spike also be a deliberate portrayal? Or is retro!retro!Spike just the way fans think of him?