Is the heart overlooked when it comes to intelligence?

The center of the nervous system, the brain, has been popularly defined as the fundamental core of intellectual activity. Yet, in my Bioelectricity class with Professor Nina Tandon, we learned about recent research suggesting that information processing in the body may in fact be more distributed.

For example, there is increasing evidence suggesting that the cardioelectromagenetic field can actually affect human beings in close proximity.These signals are stronger in amplitude when in direct contact, but are still detectable up to several feet away from the source. Through these interactions, the heart transfers energies between human beings. The heart can therefore be characterized as the engine for distributing and controlling energy of the human body.

These extraordinary results illustrate that the heart is not only responsible for blood regulations, but is also a very powerful intelligence system.

This made me wonder, could intelligence be distributed through the body in ways we might not expect? Could this information sent to the brain perhaps even influence emotional states? Or provide insight into some of the unexplained links between "mental" and "bodily" diseases (eg Alzheimer's and cardiac disease etc)?

Given that the heart and other organs are frequently excluded from the
intellectual discussion, I would like to ask the Ted community, how do
these new findings affect how we view intelligence? How will our
interactions with each other differ if we view more of our bodies as
"intelligent?"

Apr 11 2013:
Yes, I think intelligence is distributed throughout the body, and only now is evidence beginning to catch up with intuition in this and many other areas. This opens up the wider implications in the gulf of understanding - trust even - between intuition and science.

There is good reason why we refer to "the gut" for instinct and "the heart" for emotion, feeling and love, and there is extraordinary evidence from heart transplant patients, who relate that their emotions and interests changed post-operatively, to those of their donor. This phenomenon, known as "cellular memory" has been researched by Dr David Armour at the University of Montreal:

This could mean that there is a link between the "brain" in the gut and disorders such as Irritable Bowel Syndrome and Depression - and perhaps the misplaced role of SSRIs in prolonging the presence of serotonin in the gut rather than the brain in our head.

Very interesting that you connected this new research with ancient practice. I find that we often think of ancient practices as antiquated, however, they can definitely open up areas of knowledge for us. It is easy to dismiss the past by claiming that they were less knowledgeable than us, but human intuition proves that we can actually learn quite a bit from analyzing their conventions.

Apr 11 2013:
I agree Hadar, that some people would like to dismiss ancient practices, and perhaps some of them SHOULD be dismissed. However, there are many things that were KNOWN by people in ancient times that are still very relevant in modern times, and I think it benefits us to build on that knowledge, which seemed to be very natural for people in ancient times.

The interconnectivity of the body/mind systems seems to have been very well known in ancient times, and for awhile, we dismissed those beliefs in favor of modern technology and science. Now, we are re-discovering the connections again, and in my humble perception, ancient wisdom AND modern technology all fits together!......I LOVE it!

I really like how you connect ancient wisdom and modern technology. It is a very unique relation that many overlook. I would love to explore more what this connection really entails of.

But you are right, the inter-connectivity of the body and mind has been a concept that was very widespread in ancient times. It is amazing how they viewed the body as directly affected by the mind. I think this type of awareness of the effects of our systems is highly important in understanding how humans actually function.

Apr 17 2013:
Hadar
I agree...it is important to understand the body/mind connections, and I believe in using ALL availabe information:>)

I had some interesting “seeds” planted at a very young age.

My parents had a huge garden, chickens, fresh eggs, meat, fresh veggies, herbs and fruits. We ate fresh from the garden in summer, and canned food for winter months....healthy!

My mom LOVED “Prevention Magazine”, which introduced many alternative practices and ideas for keeping the body healthy, and I found it fascinating:>)

I began working at age 13, and one of my most significant jobs, was at age 17, as an operating room technician…assisting for major surgeries…I got to observe the interconnecting systems of live human bodies, and that was a HUGE learning experience.

Jump ahead to age 30, when I was diagnosed with degenerative disc disease in the spine, which is generally a progressively disabling condition. It is common as we age, but I was only 30. After taking pain meds, being in traction and wearing a neck brace, none of which relieved the pain, a fusion of the spine was advised. Well, I had seen THAT done, and was not impressed! I started exploring alternative practices, and of course everything I had been exposed to started to come into play.

As I explored holistic practices I decided to strengthen the muscular system to support the degenerating spine. It wasn’t “work”, because I started playing tennis, volleyball, sailboat racing, and dancing, as well as yoga….all of which strengthened the upper body. For 10 years, I strengthened the body and mind with alternative practices. I knew that the DDD would not heal, and I managed it pretty well.

What I didn’t know, was that what I was learning about the body/mind would be used again, when, at age 43 I sustained a near fatal head/brain injury from a horseback riding accident. Upon regaining consciousness after an emergency craniotomy, my family and I were told I would never function normally again. Time to rebuild..again

Comment deleted

Thanks for posting all these resources, I really appreciate it! These new research findings are fascinating as they definitely make us question what exactly is the function of various body parts and how they interact with each other.

I like how you broadened the question of the relationship between intuition and science. This is something I think about quite often, and I really think should be discussed more.

On a cell level, we can assume there is a lot of regulation and communication going on (with surrounding cells).
Still, it's nerve cells who are speciallized in information processing and passing it on to the other nerve cels

So is there a possibility our heart "thinks"? I don't think so. The article refers to a nerve nucleus: It's function certainy is information processing (as our gut-brain does as well). But the number of cells there probably indicates that it's contribution [to intelligence] cannot be as big as that of the CNS

As for the cardio-electromagnetic field theory... I am very sceptical about that (I see it pop up more often in pseudo-science and new-age than in actual scientific research)

Apr 17 2013:
I agree with you Christophe. But I think it's a pity. It looks like just because some people use pseudo-scientific attempts to correlate heart with intelligence, scientists shy away from examining it critically.
Intelligence is under appreciated in my opinion. You are right that information processing is primarily done by CNS and there is no denying that for humans CNS is pretty developed. But what exactly is intelligence?
I think we always define intelligence with the idea of a goal or purpose in mind. A person can be very intelligent while grasping a physical reality and very dumb while managing relationships or emotions. I broached the subject of emotional intelligence in this context.
Purely biologically, where propagation of genes is the ultimate purpose, an organism that has traded a developed and complex CNS for a survival related adaptive trait that helps it to continue for millions of years, can be viewed as biologically intelligent.
I may be wrong, but it appears to me that our idea of intelligence is too outwardly directed, so much that we often say our brain decides this or that, and 'we' are relegated to a living corpse. Can it it be so there is another kind of intelligence within our body, among our organs, a mind blowing concert between different parts of our body to achieve seemingly mundane tasks like drinking a glass of water?
I think that is a very interesting and useful question to ask. I just hope scientists of future will take this question seriously.

Apr 16 2013:
Hadar,
I survived a heart attack. I can tell you from my experience that one of the most noticeable symptoms of heart attack is a sense of impending doom. Some call it anxiety, but I noticed it's more than that. Now why heart, a muscle basically, under attack makes the brain to send such signals you think?
I heard when a heart attack is imminent, certain hormones are released into blood stream to cause that sense of doom. Do you think it is an alarm system of the body?
I also heard that laughter keeps the heart healthy. Do you think it has scientific basis?
This conversation is drawing to a close, but I hope you will ponder. Thanks.

Comment deleted

I completely agree with you that understanding consciousness is highly significant to science. I like your phrase of "materialistic science"- it definitely evokes certain thoughts.

I feel that while scientists have done a great job at exploring the Intellectual Brain, they did not give as much meaning to the Emotional Brain or the Motor Brain. I would love to learn more about these types of brains and how they differ from the Intellectual Brain.

Apr 13 2013:
How can you have non-materialistic science? Science has to have something tangible to study? Just because we dont know yet how the brain produces consciousness doesnt mean we will never know. The brain governs the entire body and everything in it, so obviously its connected with eveything. The brain is the command and control center everything else in the body is kind of a slave to the brains command, except that which happens anywhere else effects the brain also. Theres actually some pretty good theorys, backed by observation, that could help you better understand what consciousness really is.

Apr 14 2013:
The problem with your thinking is that it ignores what "science" actually is. Science is the action of studying physical phenomena. If some type of metaphysics existed whether it be telepathy or whatever, then it would have to be able to be studied before science would be able to accept it. Consciousness is a mystery although existing cognitive science does have some theories. However scientists are humble enough to admitt what they dont know. By postulating an idea without evidence is not scientific by any means. You said the brain doesnt produce experience? Well i guess then hundreds of million$$ are being wasted in Neuroscience study brain activity and what its associated with, using MRI. STOP PROMOTING GARBAGE AND CALLING IT REAL. you can believe what you want but if your going to sell PHILOSOPHY call it PHILOSOPHY dont call it SCIENCE.

Comment deleted

Apr 15 2013:
Science is the action of making a hypothesis that can be tested, testing it, and drawing a conclusion from the data collected. If you cant test your "theories" than their just "theories" not science. Go worship the sun!

Comment deleted

Apr 17 2013:
science doesnt accept anything that doesnt have evidence to validate it. ideas are what make Philosophy but its only where science begins. Science Does not just accept something until proven otherwise..exactly the opposite. the "social brain" is a concept. the reality behind that concept is not fully understood. we are social animals that evolved this way. If you have a question be more specific and ill attempt to answer it.

It is interesting to ponder possibilities of an alternate intellectual infrastructure of the human body, however, I don't think that evidence of a cardioelectromagenetic field affecting a human in close proximity is evidence that a deeper intellectual system manifested in the heart or other organs may exist. Why is this alleged cause and effect relationship between an electromagnetic field and a human different from the sense of touch or any other sensory input that the brain perceives? I'm not sure what you mean by "intelligence" though. Many complex and "intelligent" processes occur to make even the simplest of bodily processes possible. At least for me personally, these findings will not have any affect on how I interact with other humans. Even if I do believe a person's heart is "smart", what difference does the source (brain or other organ) of intelligence make? Just my two cents.

George

Comment deleted

Apr 15 2013:
So you transcended duality? When you where in school did you study history? The idea of science initially was motivated equally by an emerging world-view than the method of inquiring itself? Voltaire proclaimed "The Age of Reason Is the War on Superstition". Science emerged to fight Dogma and dissolve the superstitious world view. Makes sense right? Science provides medical explanations while religion and intuition provide demons. Theres a documentary called "Witch Doctor." Its about a Shamans in Africa who tells people (and actually believes) you can be cured of AIDS if you have sex with a virgin, now you can imagine how this played out. In short, Psuedo-scientific new age/ quasi-spiritual non-sense will lead us back to the dark ages. If you want to live in the Empirical world and not the Fantasy world than embrace real science, please. At least Keep your spiritual stuff away from science.. personally you can believe what you want.

Apr 15 2013:
Carolyn I fully agree with you and have the feeling also that materialism is seen as the way to be and the way to go. The most important aspect and aim of life seems to be now, to die as the richest person possible. It is all about what we have, not what we do or why.

The two major motivators in this world seem to have lost the connection to each other and have also lost their connection to reality. This life is not only about matter and it is also not only about spirit. Both should relate to, and respect, each other and acknowledge their limits.

We basically need a spiritual motivation to use scientific (or physical items) to assist and help each other and society. What science does not see or cannot sensor it says 'does not exist' and the ones 'defending' the Bible have (I'm sorry to say) almost no idea what they're talking about.
Gladly there is now a way to reconnect.

Apr 15 2013:
Agree materialism is the goal these days and many do not care how many others they trample on to get there. It is clearly a good aim to be reasonably financially secure, roof over your head,food, kids through college, decent car, retirement funding.

Avarice (greed for money) brings, jealously, often working yourself into the ground, disconnect from community and family, no respect for others including animals. Lives of isolation and ignorance of the world around you. I look at Australia's Billionairess + wealthiest woman in world through mining. Totally oblivious to the world/community around her it appears and total disarray btw family members.

A survey asked ....towards the end of your life....was my life lived worthwhile? Looking back what would you have done differently ? Top answer ...to have stopped to smell the roses...spent more time with my family, not worked so hard. Connected with community.

Apr 15 2013:
I wish reply chains could go on longer than they do. Pabitra, I think there are several problems that I have with this article and ones like it. First, a lot of the references cited came from something called "subtle energies", which seems highly suspicious to me, and I still don't know what it is. Second, the mechanisms they talk about constantly mix science and pseudoscience (for example, the talk about practitioners adopting a "sincere caring attitude, and thus introducing increased coherence into their cardiac field.") Furthermore, "If we define energy as the capacity to produce an effect, these experiments suggest that an exchange of energy has occurred. It has also been demonstrated that many of these therapeutic effects occur without physical touch, indicating that energy of some kind is radiated or broadcast between practitioner and patient". This is incredibly vague, and doesn't give me any good idea of the mechanisms even adding all the Electromagnetic field stuff into the equation.

Mainstream science journals hold the position that the the evidence for any kind of "energy healing" is lacking, and the studies that do see evidence have been criticized for using bad methodology and "selection bias".

Apr 15 2013:
Noah yes the 'evidence' is missing. One day though when I'd say the world is more at peace and perhaps do we dare to hope world hunger gone, this 'metaphor' proof might be found.

There is a large teaching hospital probably the best in my State of Victoria Australia. It has just put in a cancer building of 10 storeys high ... it also includes alternative therapies as well as cancer drugs. Only just been opened and they are collecting the data if and hopefully why the both together might work. First instigated by singer Olivier Newton-John for whom it is named.

The was a heart surgeon there I think and after scrubbs, he would pray (not prey) over his patients ..... his success rate was many times better than any other surgeon.

Apr 15 2013:
Dear Noah,
I am aware what is mainstream science, how it works and validated. But I think there are substantial branches of studies that are arguably outside of mainstream science but are credible by their own processes. Some are observational, some behavioral and some statistical. The scientific process of inquiry and scientific evidence are quite well defined and the publication might not apparently meet that standard but I prefer to keep myself open to all new work and observations from these and believe that will not harm mainstream science in any way.

I also find 'real science' a rather rarefied claim. There is science and there are other things.
Btw, I notice that you feel uncomfortable with semantics of propositions. Unfortunately, science still needs language for communication and language does not follow scientific and evidence based practice. You can check descriptions of postulates by very mainstream scientists about a century back. I did, and it appeared to me that it came from a pseudo-scientist.

I think science is unable to handle the whole idea of healing, let alone energy healing. Some may take a position like how long do we wait till mainstream science finds scientific evidence for nursing and healing to be having positive effect on patients, while tons of personal experience affirming that to be something tangible.

Apr 15 2013:
I think you're aware of the placebo, which is exactly why we have "tons of personal experiences". And the effect disappears when we take the placebo away. You say "I think science is unable to handle the whole idea of healing, let alone energy healing", but if the only way we are going to get an effect is to not study it, something is wrong.

Apr 16 2013:
Are you seriously saying all our personal experiences are placebo? Placebo meaning a simulated or otherwise medically ineffectual treatment for a disease or other medical condition intended to deceive the recipient?
Kindly elucidate how science has studied, explained and refuted/proved the process of nursing and healing. Or are you saying nursing and healing are placebo, too?

Apr 16 2013:
The placebo effect is when a person's health improves just by them thinking it will. That's why when they do drug testing, they give the control group a placebo (a pill that does nothing) so that they can rule out the possibility of the placebo being the reason the drug works. The placebo has been studied extensively, and effects are great, especially when all it needs to do is make a patient feel better (particularly in energy healing, homeopathic medicine, or other alternatives.)

Apr 15 2013:
I agree. Im appalled at how many people just except this kind of garbage upon faith. I sware pseudo-scientific journals are the Bible of the New Age religion. The same people who like to think they embrace science, really are only distorting it and not even applying its wisdom and method properly. People want to believe in something, If the traditional faith are not working, people will create a new creed with a seemingly higher legitimacy, and thats what this stuff is.

Apr 15 2013:
Thank you. But I am surprised that you are appalled. That to be credible and authentic you have to be somehow scientific is a dogma in itself and it has been created by generations of practitioners of science. To prevent seemingly impossible things to be accomplished out of new age fluff, science and scientists have been stereotyped as nerds, just check Hollywood potboilers to see how just impressive machines, funny sounds and assembly of blinking consoles along with some jargon thrown in can make utterly ludicrous ideas seem authentic.The onus of the distortion is squarely on societies and cultures who worshiped machines, productions and material results.

I think you are aware that science can well cease to be an inquiry, can grow into a belief system (which some call scienticism) and warp even the brightest of minds. Newton started one. It took half a century to take the non-deterministic views of natural sciences seriously.

I hope I made it amply clear that i do not accept there is anything such as real science. There is science and there are other things. In my humble opinion, I am unable to discard any inquiry just because it did not follow scientific process and EBP. Therefore Ms. Cohen's question is quite legitimate to me and I am confident I can separate out the voodoo from a reasoned research and you need not worry.

Apr 16 2013:
" That to be credible and authentic you have to be somehow scientific is a dogma in itself and it has been created by generations of practitioners of science"- First, thats how science was born as ive mentioned in a differant comment.. Science was born out of conflict with dogma and superstition. Science is a verb, not a noun. The principle behind science is to make claims based on empirical evidence rather than faith or superstition... seems to be a universal and infallible idea for Logic.

Scientists can become dogmatic but not "science." Because real science is based on real facts and real evidence. Newtonian physics is deterministic but for the purpose of his research into the macro-universe yes to this day it is still deterministic. If it wasnt you couldnt have any applied science of physics for example if laws governing our macro-universe where probabalistic than rockets airplanes cars our own motions etc.. couldnt be possible to formulate without a constant re-adjustment. The new paradigm of relativity replaced the classic views because now they had perspective on light, waves, space-time, the particle universe etc... but it didn't change the way physics was already understood relative to the everyday
matter we constantly interact with.. of course you shouldn't discard a theory if it had not yet been verified by science but you shouldn't be Certain of something that hasn't been proven, and definately, and this is what bugs me, no body could discard the oceans of scientific evidence that has already been accepted to re-enforce some "idea" or philosophy they have.

Apr 16 2013:
I appreciate your passion. However, I have very different ideas about almost everything you are saying.
1. Though it helped greatly to remove, Science was NOT born out of conflict with dogma and superstition. Probably you are mistaken by the scientific revolution that took place in 16th and 17th century Europe. Empirical investigations of the natural world have been described since classical antiquity (for example, by Thales, Aristotle, and others), and scientific methods have been employed since the Middle Ages (for example, by Ibn al-Haytham, and Roger Bacon). More ancient references of science can be found in Hindu philosophies. Science originated as a systematic enterprise that builds and organizes knowledge in the form of testable explanations and predictions about the universe. I see it as an incrementally developing human inquiry rather than a revolutionary idea out of a war or fight.
2. It is good that you see science and scientists as different. ‘Scientist’ is a relatively modern term coined by William Whewell in the 19th century. Previously there were only natural philosophers. But I am very confused with your statement “Scientists can become dogmatic but not "science." Scientists can be dogmatic, but what is that dogma, then?
3. Universal and infallible idea of Logic is not the forte of science, not exclusively. It better not be because had it been so you would have required no evidence. Logic, as proclaimed, is good enough to establish a truth.
4. I think science is a noun, not verb in dictionaries. As a body of knowledge it should be a noun. Science can appear a verb when scientific and critical thinking is a teaching tool but even then the idea is controversial.
(cont.)

Apr 16 2013:
Definately, what you said was the most thought out thing and i respect that. I guess the nature of Language is fallible. I think at some points you are not grasping whats im saying.. and not because it beyond you but because words are semantic. Indeed you are right on certain fronts but i believe you attempt to find the grey areas in what can be interpretted by my words and start an argument. For example the whole scientific revolution thing and Aristotle. I mean yes depending on a broader definition of science you where right however your deliberately ignoring the context in which im writing and my point. I was wrong in using "certainty" because it come across too absolute and yes science is fluid, however science is not build on assumptions.. the conclusions drawn are from sold evidence. Also much of what i convey is a matter of Fact that you can research not perspective.. atleast if your being objective. You totally did not catch what i was attempting to convey about Classical Physics and quantum mechanics. I feel no need to really explain but a huge problem in todays physics is understanding... how matter in the microcosm acts through probabalism and in the macro-universe it has through determinism. How does matter made of matter behaving undeterministically.. act deterministically? Digest what I say!

Apr 16 2013:
5. You are making a distinction between everyday ‘matter’ we constantly interact with and other things that relativistic or quantum physics deals with. Is that a special physics? Your chain of universality and infallibility of logic seems to break down here. I hope you know that a million observations of white swans will not make the proposal ‘all swans are white’ true but a single observation of a black swan will establish the proposition ‘all swans may not be white’. If the knowledge of quantum indeterminacy, relativism and probability did not change the physics the way everyday matter is understood, it appears that science does compromise with practicality and let us know things the way we can comprehend. It does not make everyday matter science beyond question, isn’t?
6. I am seriously confused about the certainty that you are implying to be coming from scientific proof. If I have understood anything about science, it NEVER proclaims certainty of anything, not even with oceans of scientific evidence. Science remains falsifiable. That is why millions of students study science, piece through works of people before them, aspire to challenge and falsify one little bit and that’s how science progresses. No one has spoken last word about science.
7. Science does not require crusaders like Keith Weissman or Pabitra Mukhopadhyay to be saved from pseudo-science because it is far too great a human quest and far too inclusive than you may care to think.
I think you will benefit from reading the works of Thomas Kuhn.
Cheers!!

Apr 17 2013:
Certainly it remains falsifiable.. but scientific claims are clearly different than philosophical claims. If there wasnt "constants" in science, building rocket ships and doing surgery would be pretty hard. think about what your saying its not a matter of philosophical debate. Look at all that has come to fruition because of science. Its self-evident that there are absolutes and laws that govern this existence.. Applied science would be irrelavent if everything was always in flux

Apr 17 2013:
That science is a work in progress. i tried telling you already.. matter on the micro-scale behaves differently than on the macro-scale. Much of our lack of understanding of the particle universe lays in the extreme difficulty in studying such phenomena. We have to build billions dollar enormous accelerators to do it ineffiecently. However on the macro-scale we have many laws and absolutes mapped out and understood. How else do you think we can send rockets to mars and achieve great medical knowledge? Not philosophy! A doctor must be certain of his practice... he doesnt remain in your bubble of philosophical doubt

Apr 17 2013:
I tell you how Keith. You can check it. When we send rockets to mars and watch it in monitors, we eat our whole fingernails. You know why? Because we, so certain about science, shit in our pants fearing every second that it will burst into oblivion. Any second.
Doctors are even a worse lot my friend. They perform surgery and say, the operation is successful but the patient died. In other instances, medical doctors, the product of macro level science per excellence, pray. Can you believe it? They pray!

Apr 17 2013:
Well its still accomplished bucko! Science is a growing field. I never said we knew everything. Nasa bite its nails and doctors to because they are aware of unaccounted for variable and bad math.. Yes rocket ships have crashed before due to miscalculations. However how many open heart surgeries have successfully been done? Not because of uncertainty but because of a significant body of data and research. Without a significant degree of certainty what has been accomplished the last 100 years would be impossible. Think about it.. would a doctor do a heart transplant if he wasnt at least certain that there was an exact science behind it. yes theres a margin of error but if the laws where constantly changing no body would be confident in applying research to its practical application.

Apr 17 2013:
Sure. I am feeling sleepy so let's conclude.
Science is a growing field. This exact science is entirely based on statistical success. In last 100 years every day science has separated from micro level science where physics still works. It's not a philosophy anymore.
Peace.

Apr 17 2013:
I still think you have wrong idea but whatever. Micro-level physics is just the least determined science thus far. also Macro-level science has been re-affirmed thousands of times in the areas it is certain of its claims. obviously all fields of study are continually growing. WHen science is Applied in practice its doing so based on proven results.

Apr 14 2013:
I have. I read the article you posted, and I looked up different uses for magnetic fields in medical practice, some of which have a real basis and some of which are pseudoscientific. What I can dismiss are claims by people that jump to illogical conclusions, citing sources that don't prove what those people are claiming.

Apr 14 2013:
Noah,
Is this comment to me? Good job to do your own exploration.

I did not know what, or whom your other comment was addressing, so it helps to put a name on the comment.

Also, it helps to keep the comments in sequence as much as possible. If there is a little red "reply" in the upper right of the comment, you can reply directly to the person. If not, scroll up to the first opportunity to reply.

Apr 17 2013:
"No Keith, you don't need to say anything again. What would be helpful to any conversation, is for you to be clear regarding what you want to express. "
Read what ive wrote.. how am i not being obvious? im explaining what school children learn in their introductory science classes reguarding the scientific method. Really im coming off frustrated because its like.... what planet are you on? isnt it obvious science is a process of experimentation and claims based on empirical data?

Apr 17 2013:
I am on the same planet you are Keith, and I read what you write. I have not EVER argued with you regarding what science is, or is not. Perhaps you are getting lost in your own frustration?

Here is what I wrote to you recently...
"Since you ask Keith....
What is MOST obvious about your comments, in my observation, is your intolerace for other people's thoughts, feelings, ideas, your sarcasm and anger, which simply muddies the water, causing less understanding of what exactly you are trying to express."

If you want people to genuinely listen to you and respectfully engage in conversation, it would be helpful for you to offer the same.

So, again....I have not argued with you regarding what science is, or is not. Why do you want to be disrespectful with your question..."what planet are you on"? Why is that kind of communication necessary for you? What do you gain? What purpose does it serve?

Apr 17 2013:
Im getting frustrated by repeating my point over and over. Sometimes being direct is the best way to get through to people.. wake them out of their coma haha. I dont mean to offend you if thats what your thinking. WHen i see ridiculous claims i respond accordingly.

Apr 17 2013:
If you are frustrated with repeating your point over and over again Keith, don't do it! You are simply frustrating yourself. You don't offend me Keith, you offend yourself. YOUR comments are a reflection of YOU. It doesn't have anything to do with anyone else.

Apr 17 2013:
thats your subjective opinion. Those who understand my position of defending Real Science may have a different view. Religion is not the biggest threat to science, NO, the biggest threat to science are people who distort it and use it inappropriately. As i have said in response to somebody earlier "i would not adamantly attack someones views on religion or philosophy, but science is worth defending"

Apr 17 2013:
the problem with comments are they are always out of context because the human presence necassary for deciphering context is not here. You may have they wrong idea of my intentions and certainly perception is influenced by subjectivity. Therefore what my comments reflect is more determined on whos reading and how its being processed. You dont have to supply your therapuetics in my conversations with other people. If all human action is driven by motive, whats yours? Some people believe their words and actions arise from a place of reason and altruism when they really are speaking from a self-righteous moral hill-top... not saying thats certainly you, im throwing it out there.. Apart of awareness is understanding that which drives you. Even our apparent friendliness and happy motive may be seeded in the same fear, desire, and ego that spiritual practice is aimed at dissolving.

Apr 17 2013:
Keith,
Let me remind you that this thread started with a question from YOU...

"Keith Wessman
7 hours ago: Need i say it again.. Science needs to have proof! at least a way to prove it. Im not against Philosophy.. im against the confusion of the two. Im against Bad Science and miraculous claims made under the pretense of science. WOW! how isnt that obvious? "

My response to you Keith...
"Colleen Steen
6 hours ago: No Keith, you don't need to say anything again. What would be helpful to any conversation, is for you to be clear regarding what you want to express.

Since you ask Keith....
What is MOST obvious about your comments, in my observation, is your intolerace for other people's thoughts, feelings, ideas, your sarcasm and anger, which simply muddies the water, causing less understanding of what exactly you are trying to express."

1.Comments ARE NOT "out of context"......except yours.
2. If you do not want an answer, do not ask the question.
3. YOUR comments are a reflection of YOU and no one else.

Apr 17 2013:
clearly you didnt process my last message. Take a deep breathe.. and let it go. if somebody says 2 plus 2 equals 5 im not going to accept their viewpoint. Your wrong my comments also reflect the stupidity of many people commenting on this thread. you where being reasonable until you intruded with this life lesson.. others where being "flat- earthers" so i called them on it. With the level of "Science-Denial" that was going on i had to be blunt. what can i say... cry me a river.

Comment deleted

Apr 15 2013:
If your brain was monitored by MRI and they pricked you or stimulated different parts of your body corresponding regions of your brain would light up. Hey Socrates why dont you read a real science journal. the amazing thing is that real scientists publish all their experiments and data and wait usually before something is considered as true the experiment is replicated many time by many people. For real open up a piece of accepted scientific literature.. you would be surprised. You should try to kick your little folk science thing.. really pathetic, and it upsets me only cause people like yourself mislead other and taint what Science represents. Come on, read the array of garbage you post on this site.

Your angry comments are telling me that you are operating on a narrow belief system - a belief that science is the overlord of everything, including human existence and consciousness, which regularly defies logic and is often chaotic.

If you say you have an interest in psychology, then you would know that.

You cannot distil human existence exclusively down to coloured blips on fMRI images and the (as yet not fully researched) role of neurochemicals.

In the field of psychology, you simply have to open your mind up to its behavioural/social aspects of study (both sciences, yet both potentially defying logic) in order to fully comprehend what really does make us tick.

Apr 15 2013:
When I called you Socrates, yeah, that was sarcasm Bucko. Philosophy is great but it doesnt prove anything. Your Poetic notions although, romantic, are not true. Like i said believe what you want just dont corrupt science or any form of academia with your thought pollution. If you where religious i and everyone could just shrug our shoulders and say "Oh hes just Religious" But No your selling your witchcraft under the pretense of science.. thats what bugs me.

Apr 15 2013:
The way this comment section works is annoying. Chris, the way I see it, there is no such thing as "materialistic" science. What exactly does "material" mean? If something like spirit energy or ghosts or something could be documented by science as a legitimate phenomenon, it would become the material world, not much different from magnetic fields, dark energy, or whatever. Also, according to string theory, all matter is just a manifestation of energy. So maybe what the universe essentially boils down to is just laws.