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Re: A question for the Draft Heads

Originally Posted by flippy

Let's take him in the second round then

Good point btw. I'm just not big on a OG @ 18.

To be honest- neither is Chadman. OG is kinda boring. And PLAYMAKERS on Defense are needed. It's just that, when you put value boards together, the drop off from the #1 OG to the #2 OG is greater than the drop off of the other 'positions of need' for the Steelers- CB, FS, DE......with perhaps the exception of NT.

Re: A question for the Draft Heads

Originally Posted by Chadman

Originally Posted by flippy

Let's take him in the second round then

Good point btw. I'm just not big on a OG @ 18.

To be honest- neither is Chadman. OG is kinda boring. And PLAYMAKERS on Defense are needed. It's just that, when you put value boards together, the drop off from the #1 OG to the #2 OG is greater than the drop off of the other 'positions of need' for the Steelers- CB, FS, DE......with perhaps the exception of NT.

I see the logic. I also see the logic that an OG could play/contribute right away.

I'm also curious what the Steelers think about Colon long term. Even Starks who I think there's some mixed feelings on. Should we be thinking about the tackle position more than guard? Plus we have a new coach and who knows how our guys fit with his philosophy.

I'm thinking there's so many difference makers on Defense that will be available and hard to pass up.

Re: A question for the Draft Heads

Originally Posted by Chadman

Where would he fit in as a Steeler? Kemo to RG and Iupati at LG? I think drafting any guard in Rd. 1 would be a waste. I agree we need to get back to a power running game, If so, then who is responsible for taking him with our 2nd pick last year? That would be a huge waste for two consecutive years.

In theory, you are correct- but your argument smacks of incosistancy...

Looking at your mock, you have Kareem Jackson CB, in Round 2.

If drafting Iupati to play OG & 'giving up' on Urbik is a 'waste', then by drafting Jackson in Round 2, you waste 2 picks from last year- Keenan Lewis & Joe Burnett.

[quote:1y9vmu2a]but do we know that Urbik is not the answer?

- nobody knows for sure, but here's a pretty big clue- RG last year was former back-up OT Trai Essex, then when Kemo got hurt back-up Center Doug Legursky got a shot, and then undrafted former OT Ramon Foster won the position.

Where was #2 pick, and career OG Kraig Urbik? Dressed in his civvies on the sideline. Not a good indication of future dominance right there..

And as for who is responsible for drafting Urbik- you would have to envision that FORMER OL coach Larry Z had some say. The same Larry Z that overlooked an OL that gave up over 80 odd sacks in two years.[/quote:1y9vmu2a]
Smacks of insconsistency? Lewis was our 4th pick (a very low 3rd round comp pick) and Burnett was a 5th rounder. Urbik was our 2nd pick. Big difference. We are losing Townsend (most likely) plus you have have the nickel package where a 3rd CB is needed, i.e. you have a lot more room for CBs than you do a RG. We don't have a huge need for a guard and it seems like a waste when we have glaring needs on our defense, granted not as big as it was since we signed Clark, Hampton, and Foote. If we have to go offense, I'd much rather take an offensive threat like Spiller at RB, where we do have a need, than at OG, where it is not as apparent, at least to me.

Re: A question for the Draft Heads

I know everyone has a different opinion and that's what makes this fun; so, if the following players are available at 1.18 who do you take?

Iupati
Thomas
Spiller
the 2nd best ILB in the draft (excuse my ignorance, I have no idea who that might be)

Given that the depth of the Safety class means that there are good talents found through to Round 4 or so, and that the drop-off from Iupati to the next OG is far greater, Iupati would trump Thomas, particularly after the Steelers re-signed Clark & added Will Allen.

CJ Spiller is a different proposition in some ways...he is a rare talent that could dominate due to his speed. But...if the Steelers need a 'Fast Back' as the #2 RB, there are a few options in the later rounds. Also- the Steelers FO lamented the inability to convert short yardage, not 3rd & long, which indicate to Chadman that a 'Power RB' might be of greater need in the FO's eyes. Adding Iupati also improves the Steelers running game, particularly in the smash 'em up derby that is short yardage situations.

The 2nd/3rd best ILB might be a moot point now that Larry Foote, Key Fox, James Farrior & Lawrence Timmons are on board. There's only so many spots! OLB however...

Is Iupati rated as highly as Alan Faneca was when we drafted him in the first? If not, I don't see the Steelers taking a guard in the first round. I just don't see an OG being a 1st round selection particularly since they took Urbik in the 2nd last year.

Spiller would probably be the choice if he's available I just don't see them passing on the value if he's there (I'm hoping he's off the board by the time we pick...c'mon Al Davis).

I certainly wouldn't eliminate the 2nd best (or, potentially the best) ILB in the draft because they signed Foote and have Fox and Farrior. Fox hasn't proven to be a starter that's how we picked him up, Farrior and Foote only have a year or two left and that's questionable. I like ILB at this spot if one they really like is available.

Thomas, still brings the best value and versatility that the Steelers covet. If he's there it would be surprising if they passed on him, IMO.

Re: A question for the Draft Heads

Originally Posted by papillon

Originally Posted by Chadman

Originally Posted by Lebsteel

I have nothing against Iupati, I just don't want the Steelers to draft a guard in Rd. 1 when their 2nd pick from last year was a highly rated guard who has not had a chance to prove himself. Are you convinced that Urbik is a bust and will not play RG?

Chadman never rated Urbik that highly. And the Combine workouts/practices last year left MUCH to be desired.

In Chadman's opinion, Urbik benefitted from being a member of a good OL, not the Wisconsin OL benefitting from Urbik being a member of it.

At most, he'll never be dominant. And the 'word' from Mr Rooney is he wants the committment placed back on running the ball. What better way to commit to running than to put together a dominant blocking OL? With Kemo & Iupati at OG, the Steelers have 2 massive maulers for Rashard to run behind.

I know everyone has a different opinion and that's what makes this fun; so, if the following players are available at 1.18 who do you take?

Iupati
Thomas
Spiller
the 2nd best ILB in the draft (excuse my ignorance, I have no idea who that might be)

Re: A question for the Draft Heads

Just so we argue apples for apples- Urbik was the 15th pick of the 3rd round last year, 17 picks ahead of Keenan Lewis.

To put how 'high' Urbik was drafted into perspective, and how much we can 'expect' Urbik to contribute- the 15th pick of the 3rd round is..10 picks higher than 3rd round bust Bruce Davis from 2008, 2 picks lower than Matt Speath in 2007, 4 picks higher than Anthony Smith in 2006 & 14 picks higher than Trai Essex in 2005. So, as you can see, the track record of success of the picks from the Steelers around Urbik's selection do not give much confidence to a sparkling career.

Re: A question for the Draft Heads

Originally Posted by Lebsteel

Originally Posted by Chadman

Where would he fit in as a Steeler? Kemo to RG and Iupati at LG? I think drafting any guard in Rd. 1 would be a waste. I agree we need to get back to a power running game, If so, then who is responsible for taking him with our 2nd pick last year? That would be a huge waste for two consecutive years.

In theory, you are correct- but your argument smacks of incosistancy...

Looking at your mock, you have Kareem Jackson CB, in Round 2.

If drafting Iupati to play OG & 'giving up' on Urbik is a 'waste', then by drafting Jackson in Round 2, you waste 2 picks from last year- Keenan Lewis & Joe Burnett.

[quote:2oysz0i1]but do we know that Urbik is not the answer?

- nobody knows for sure, but here's a pretty big clue- RG last year was former back-up OT Trai Essex, then when Kemo got hurt back-up Center Doug Legursky got a shot, and then undrafted former OT Ramon Foster won the position.

Where was #2 pick, and career OG Kraig Urbik? Dressed in his civvies on the sideline. Not a good indication of future dominance right there..

And as for who is responsible for drafting Urbik- you would have to envision that FORMER OL coach Larry Z had some say. The same Larry Z that overlooked an OL that gave up over 80 odd sacks in two years.

Smacks of insconsistency? Lewis was our 4th pick (a very low 3rd round comp pick) and Burnett was a 5th rounder. Urbik was our 2nd pick. Big difference. We are losing Townsend (most likely) plus you have have the nickel package where a 3rd CB is needed, i.e. you have a lot more room for CBs than you do a RG. We don't have a huge need for a guard and it seems like a waste when we have glaring needs on our defense, granted not as big as it was since we signed Clark, Hampton, and Foote. If we have to go offense, I'd much rather take an offensive threat like Spiller at RB, where we do have a need, than at OG, where it is not as apparent, at least to me.[/quote:2oysz0i1]

Urbik and Lewis were both 3rd round picks, though (Urbik 79th overall and Lewis 96th overall). Also, we didn't use a comp pick for Lewis...it was our regular 3rd round pick (which just happened to be the last pick of the round since we had just won the Super Bowl). Everyone thought that we would get a 3rd round comp pick for Faneca, but it ended up being a 5th round comp pick instead (used to take Frank Summers) because of that obscure 10 year rule.

Re: A question for the Draft Heads

Originally Posted by RuthlessBurgher

Originally Posted by Lebsteel

Originally Posted by Chadman

Where would he fit in as a Steeler? Kemo to RG and Iupati at LG? I think drafting any guard in Rd. 1 would be a waste. I agree we need to get back to a power running game, If so, then who is responsible for taking him with our 2nd pick last year? That would be a huge waste for two consecutive years.

In theory, you are correct- but your argument smacks of incosistancy...

Looking at your mock, you have Kareem Jackson CB, in Round 2.

If drafting Iupati to play OG & 'giving up' on Urbik is a 'waste', then by drafting Jackson in Round 2, you waste 2 picks from last year- Keenan Lewis & Joe Burnett.

[quote:2h9cm2sy]but do we know that Urbik is not the answer?

- nobody knows for sure, but here's a pretty big clue- RG last year was former back-up OT Trai Essex, then when Kemo got hurt back-up Center Doug Legursky got a shot, and then undrafted former OT Ramon Foster won the position.

Where was #2 pick, and career OG Kraig Urbik? Dressed in his civvies on the sideline. Not a good indication of future dominance right there..

And as for who is responsible for drafting Urbik- you would have to envision that FORMER OL coach Larry Z had some say. The same Larry Z that overlooked an OL that gave up over 80 odd sacks in two years.

Smacks of insconsistency? Lewis was our 4th pick (a very low 3rd round comp pick) and Burnett was a 5th rounder. Urbik was our 2nd pick. Big difference. We are losing Townsend (most likely) plus you have have the nickel package where a 3rd CB is needed, i.e. you have a lot more room for CBs than you do a RG. We don't have a huge need for a guard and it seems like a waste when we have glaring needs on our defense, granted not as big as it was since we signed Clark, Hampton, and Foote. If we have to go offense, I'd much rather take an offensive threat like Spiller at RB, where we do have a need, than at OG, where it is not as apparent, at least to me.

Urbik and Lewis were both 3rd round picks, though (Urbik 79th overall and Lewis 96th overall). Also, we didn't use a comp pick for Lewis...it was our regular 3rd round pick (which just happened to be the last pick of the round since we had just won the Super Bowl). Everyone thought that we would get a 3rd round comp pick for Faneca, but it ended up being a 5th round comp pick instead (used to take Frank Summers) because of that obscure 10 year rule.[/quote:2h9cm2sy]
RB, thanks for the correction. The Wallace pick was the result of the 2nd round trade down, right?

Re: A question for the Draft Heads

Is Iupati rated as highly as Alan Faneca was when we drafted him in the first? If not, I don't see the Steelers taking a guard in the first round. I just don't see an OG being a 1st round selection particularly since they took Urbik in the 2nd last year.

Spiller would probably be the choice if he's available I just don't see them passing on the value if he's there (I'm hoping he's off the board by the time we pick...c'mon Al Davis).

I certainly wouldn't eliminate the 2nd best (or, potentially the best) ILB in the draft because they signed Foote and have Fox and Farrior. Fox hasn't proven to be a starter that's how we picked him up, Farrior and Foote only have a year or two left and that's questionable. I like ILB at this spot if one they really like is available.

Thomas, still brings the best value and versatility that the Steelers covet. If he's there it would be surprising if they passed on him, IMO.

Pappy

Not sure exactly of your point regarding Faneca. Are you suggesting the Steelers won't take an OG in the 1st round unless he is Faneca's quality? Because if you are- two words to disprove that theory- Kendall Simmons.

As for Urbik- remember that this is the same guy that was surpassed by undrafted Center Doug Legursky, and then by undrafted OT Ramon Foster for the job to replace the injured Kemo last year. Ok, understandable that the 'more experienced' Legursky could win the job- but the undrafted OT from the same draft class as Urbik moves ahead on the depth chart too? Not a good sign.

Spiller does not fill the role of the short yardage runner that Tomlin alluded to not having on the roster last year. There is a greater chance that Blount will be looked at to fill that role. No doubt Spiller is a great talent- just not what the Steelers need. Besides, doubt he's available at #18.

As for ILB- you think the Steelers will go into the season with 5 ILB's on the roster?