Moore, Hazel; Wilcox, Bettye Joyce

ORAL HISTORIES OF HAZEL M. MOORE AND BETTYE WILCOX
Interviewed by Chris Albrecht
Filmed by Rick Greene
Significant Productions
February 10, 2006
Transcribed by Jordan Reed
MR. ALBRECHT: What I like to do to start with is just tell us your full name and where you live.
MRS. MOORE: I’m Hazel M. Moore. Mailing address is Powell, Tennessee, 113 Jacksontown Road.
MR. ALBRECHT: Ok. Thank you. Because you didn’t come to Oak Ridge, you were already here when you came to work at the plant, how old were you when the Manhattan Project started and you came to work there?
MRS. MOORE: At the time, I was in my, about 35, 36 years old.
MR. ALBRECHT: Ok. How did you learn that they were going to be hiring people out there?
MRS. MOORE: Through, well, we heard that there was going to be a Manhattan Project and we were just looking for work other than what we were doing. At that time, the employment office was outside of the gate. You didn’t have to go inside of a gate to the employment office. So we went there one morning, my cousin and I, and we got hired that day. We went to work with Roane-Anderson.
MR. ALBRECHT: Ok. You mentioned that you were 30-some years old at the time; tell us what you were doing before that employment opportunity in Oak Ridge.
MRS. MOORE: At that time, I was doing house work, taking care of children, things like that, housekeeping; I guess is what you call it. I was working in the homes.
MR. ALBRECHT: Ok. By the way, normally when I have a conversation with somebody and you’re telling me, I’d be saying, “Yeah” and “Uh-huh”- ing. Well I’m trying to keep my mouth shut so we don’t hear it on the tape. I’m sitting here nodding my head, but you can’t see that. So you were doing the housekeeping and so forth. Tell us about how much money you were making doing versus how much money you were making when you went to Oak Ridge.
MRS. MOORE: I started work at $2.50 a week.
MR. ALBRECHT: $2.50 a week was that housekeeping, or in Oak Ridge?
MRS. MOORE: Well, in other words I was living with a family that had two children and they were only paying me $2.50 a week.
MR. ALBRECHT: So how did that compare then to when you went to work in Oak Ridge?
MRS. MOORE: A whole lot. When I was hired into work in Oak Ridge, they started us out at 58 cents an hour.
MR. ALBRECHT: So 58 cents an hour was quite a bit more than a couple dollars a week.
MRS. MOORE: Mm-hmm.
MR. ALBRECHT: So tell us a little bit about the kind of work you were doing during the Manhattan Project in Oak Ridge. What buildings you were working in, that kind of thing.
MRS. MOORE: At that time, this building on the hill was called the Administration Building and it was run by Roane-Anderson and I was employed inside to cleaning offices, taking care of offices, cleaning offices.
MR. ALBRECHT: Taking care of offices…
MRS. MOORE: Like I was taking care of ash trays and dusting, sweeping and mopping in other words.
MR. ALBRECHT: With no disrespect meant, at that point in your life, were you literate, could you read and write?
MRS. MOORE: I didn’t understand you.
MR. ALBRECHT: Could you read and write at that point in your life? And I’ll tell you why I’m asking that question. I understand they hired a lot of people to clean offices that could not read. That way they didn’t have to worry about secrets being…
MRS. MOORE: Oh, I could read. I went to the eighth grade. I could read and write.
MR. ALBRECHT: Ok, very good. Like I said, the reason I ask is because I know they hired a lot of people just for that reason because of security issues.
MRS. MOORE: Oh, sure.
MR. ALBRECHT: Speaking of security issues, tell us what you remember about going to work out there. I know there were signs and so forth that talked, “Don’t tell people what you’re doing. Keep it a secret.” Tell us a little bit about what you remember about that.
MRS. MOORE: When I was working in the Administration Building, I got, somebody came and told me and my sister that Tennessee Eastman was out there and she and I went over and we got hired for Tennessee Eastman and I worked there until 1947, and at that time they were doing the bomb, you know. As you say, we didn’t know any secrets or anything. The only thing we did out there at Y-12 was we kept the building clean. I worked in the change house. I kept that. There was a cafeteria out there for us to eat in and things like that. I worked in building 92-01 at Y-12. That’s where I was hired at and that’s where I was terminated at. I stayed in that building the whole time I worked for Y-12. But like I said I didn’t know any secrets. All I did was sweeping and mopped, and taking care of the drinking fountains.
MR. ALBRECHT: Ok, that’s good. When you were working out there and cleaning the building at Y-12 did you work with other black people? Did you work with white people? Was it mixed?
MRS. MOORE: No, no, no, no. We had our own change house. We had our own facilities and as a group of black people in the building I was working with. We didn’t work with white people. Those that were in the operation part were white. We didn’t work with that. We just cleaned the building. We didn’t know anything about the bomb or anything like that.
MR. ALBRECHT: So tell me a little bit about where you lived and how you got back and forth to work and how long it took.
MRS. MOORE: I lived, not exactly where I am now, but right across. We got up every morning and went to Clinton Highway and caught the bus, the 7 o’clock bus, went to work, got off at 3; catch the bus to Clinton Highway, walked home.
MR. ALBRECHT: That’s easy enough. (Laughter) We talked a little bit earlier this afternoon and we talked about the huts and so forth. You said that you had seen those, you knew people that lived in them. Tell us a little bit about, you lived here where you live now basically, when you went in there and saw how other black people had it over there. Tell us a little bit about that.
MRS. MOORE: Well to me, they just put them; brought them up there to me it was bad because they had huts. They had huts for men and huts for women. They separated them. They had men on one side and women on the other side. I had a couple of friends at work that lived in the huts. That’s why I know about them. I’d go out there on Sunday afternoons or whatever and I’d visit them. But the men were on one side and the women on the other side. They didn’t have no family facilities at that time.
MR. ALBRECHT: Tell us a little bit about the huts, what you remember about them. I know they didn’t have running water. They didn’t have…
MRS. MOORE: No, they didn’t have running water. They didn’t have no place to eat. They had a building called a cafeteria and everybody went there to eat, three times a day. They had meals in there three times a day. When they were going to get off from work, they go there to eat and then go home, go to the huts. I think they had bathrooms or showers or something. I’m not sure of that. But they must have had some showers somewhere because when the men would get off from work they would come down to the cafeteria to eat. Well, women too. Everybody ate in the cafeteria and then everybody went to their hut to sleep. They didn’t have a place to have a stove or anything in the huts.
MR. ALBRECHT: You mentioned the cafeterias. When you were working, I assume you ate you probably ate breakfast at home and you ate supper at home, but what about your noon meal? Did you have to eat in the cafeteria?
MRS. MOORE: Do what sir?
MR. ALBRECHT: When you were working, your noon meal did you have to eat in the cafeteria?
MRS. MOORE: No. when I, well, no, and then yeah because first they started having outside of the gate and you could go by there and get you a cup of coffee in the morning, a good eat, or something like that. You took your own lunch. They finally, after they got, I think I had started at Y-12 when they finally got a cafeteria; yeah they finally got a cafeteria. But they had one for the blacks and one for the whites.
MR. ALBRECHT: Separate ones, one for the blacks and one for the whites. To the best of your knowledge, were they similar? Did they serve the same food?
MRS. MOORE: I guess they did. Now the outside what we used to call the Canteen, they served the same foods because we would go by and get a cup of coffee, cinnamon roll, biscuit, or whatever. We could get off the bus and go to it, before we went into the working area. We had to have a badge to go into the working area. You couldn’t go in unless you had a badge.
MR. ALBRECHT: Tell me a little bit about the badges and getting through the gates. What did that amount to?
MRS. MOORE: Well, it was a little square thing with your name and your picture on it, and you had to pin it on in the gates. Even when we get on the bus to get into Oak Ridge. They had a gate at Oak Ridge, they had one at Edgemoor, they had one at Clinton Highway, and they had one down… I didn’t go down that way, but the people going to Loudon and out that way, we all had to go through a gate to get into Oak Ridge. To get into Oak Ridge, you had to have a badge. When we would get to the gate, our gate, I was from Clinton Highway and I would ride the bus to Clinton and they would pick people up in Clinton and go to Oak Ridge, and we would go to Clinton Highway and that was called the Clinton Gate. Well there was a security guard there at the gate before the driver could go in, he would come in and see that you had your badge on before you went into the area.
MR. ALBRECHT: Do you still have your badge?
MRS. MOORE: Our house got burned, and it got burned up. I’m glad I don’t have it ‘cause it looked awful. (Laughter)
MR. ALBRECHT: Let me look at my questions here. Oh, tell me a little bit about, can you recount the story about when you were working up at the Administration Building about the ladies bringing in the water bottles.
MRS. MOORE: Well as I said, I was doing, they call them wings. It was sort of like a hall. There were so many girls on a hall. These women were coming inside and they would bring water into the Administration Building. They had water in bottles for drinking water, and at that time, they were flushing, they were coming in and flushing the commodes.
MR. ALBRECHT: Using that bottled water.
MRS. MOORE: Yeah, we had drinking water standup; it was water in a bottle that stood up. And we had to keep them clean too. But when Oak Ridge first began out there, when they were cutting wood and cutting trees and building out there, I was out there. But I didn’t do nothing like that. My job, I first got hired at the Administration Building and I stayed there until I went to Y-12.
MR. ALBRECHT: Let’s see, I’m going to ask some of my other questions here. What, some of your friends, what kind of work were other black people doing?
MRS. MOORE: Like I said they were building Oak Ridge. They were out there cutting trees and pulling in, they had these flattop houses. People were living in a flattop. They had a place called, a little area where they put these flattops in. Some ladies would go in and clean these for like lawyers and doctors, would have offices in these buildings. People would go in and clean those little things up. My aunt worked in one. She worked for the [inaudible]. Bettye, you remember Effie. Effie worked for the [inaudible]. She cleaned that building.
MR. ALBRECHT: That made me think of something and now I forgot what it was. So most of the other blacks that you knew out there were working in cleaning primarily, is that right?
MRS. MOORE: Yeah. Now I never done no, like Kattie and them working in the homes. When I was terminated from Y-12, I was home and this doctor in Clinton. I never will forget it, 1948. I got hired with Dr. Bishop. I stayed there for 11 years. Other than that, other than the Administration Building and Y-12, that’s all I did in Oak Ridge. I didn’t do no cleaning or working in homes in Oak Ridge. I didn’t do that.
MR. ALBRECHT: Ok. Tell me a little bit about how many of people from your family and how many of your friends, did you have a lot of family and friends that were working in Oak Ridge at this time?
MRS. MOORE: Well, most of them were. A lot of them were going in these homes they were working in homes, but they were making more money. These people in Oak Ridge paid good money to get their house clean. I had some friends that called themselves day workers. They’d go in one day, certain day they go here, and another day they go there. They made better money then than before Oak Ridge started. After Oak Ridge, most all the maids left and went to Oak Ridge. They lost the maids and went to work in Oak Ridge.
MR. GREENE: Chris?
MR. ALBRECHT: Yes.
MR. GREENE: Bettye had a good question.
MR. ALBRECHT: What’s that?
MR. GREENE: It’s, she was wondering if she remembered any construction workers, women construction workers, because there was a shortage of men because it was war time.
MRS. WILCOX: Hazel, do you remember those people that came from the deep South when they came? You’ll tell me if I’m wrong or not, ‘cause you know. Those women that first came when Oak Ridge was first being built. They practically build Oak Ridge, because the men were at war. Did you ever hear anything about that or could that be something I heard that wasn’t… Did you hear what I said?
MRS. MOORE: Yeah.
MRS. WILCOX: Did you know of any women working in the streets to help Oak Ridge?
MRS. MOORE: Yeah. I didn’t know none of them, but I know that a lot of them did that. Nobody from my family did that. In my community, none did. I got acquainted with a lot of people ‘cause there were two ladies that lived up in Lake City, they were out there cutting trees. They were out there, I didn’t go into that. I couldn’t cut stove wood when I was home. (Laughter)
MRS. WILCOX: They tried to save those from the deep South couldn’t…
MRS. MOORE: Most of the people that cleared Y-12, I mean, sorry, most the people that cleared the area to build Oak Ridge were from the South. They were brought up here. I don’t know of any one that ever did it in my family.
MR. ALBRECHT: That’s interesting. What, you were working in Oak Ridge and this was part of the war effort because it was the Manhattan Project. Did you have any of your family that were in the military that were off at war?
MRS. MOORE: Yeah, my oldest brother.
MR. ALBRECHT: Go ahead and tell us about what branch of the service he was in and so forth.
MRS. MOORE: Oh, he worked for communications, he worked in communications. He worked in [inaudible] and he got TB [tuberculosis] and he didn’t come out of it.
MR. ALBRECHT: Well, that’s rough. Let’s see what else I got here.
MRS. MOORE: We lost him for, when my daddy died he wasn’t even home. We couldn’t even find him.
MR. ALBRECHT: Tell me a little bit, talk a little bit about the effects of segregation during the time, like I assume there were water fountains that were labeled “whites only”…
MRS. MOORE: Yes.
MR. ALBRECHT: Restrooms and so forth…
MRS. MOORE: You don’t want me to tell that story.
MR. ALBRECHT: Tell us a little bit.
MRS. MOORE: You don’t want to hear it because I know that man is dead and gone. His name was Mr. Underwood. I know he’s dead and gone. I don’t know what he did, but he’s in this hall, and he chewed tobacco. In this hall, we had the white fountain right next to the black fountain. We had our sponges and Clorox and we had to clean those things. Certain time of day we had to clean them. I was there at one getting ready to do what I was suppose to do. Mr. Underwood came up to that fountain that said colored he got him a mouthful of water and he rinsed his mouth out, his tobacco out and spit it into the colored fountain. From that day on I couldn’t stand that man.
MR. ALBRECHT: I can understand that. So there were a lot of colored fountains, colored restrooms.
MRS. MOORE: Yeah we had all that.
MR. ALBRECHT: What about the cafeterias?
MRS. MOORE: Yeah, well, as I said, at first we had separate. It was the same cafeteria, but the black was on one side and the white were on the other. It was all in the same building, we went in one line and they went in another. Now that didn’t make sense did it?
MR. ALBRECHT: No.
MRS. MOORE: (Laughter)
MR. ALBRECHT: In the cafeteria where it was separated on either side, was the food the same?
MRS. MOORE: Yeah. They had black people cooking the food in the cafeteria; they had black people serving the food. But they had whites on one side and blacks on the other. That didn’t make sense.
MR. ALBRECHT: Not at all. Were there any other particular incidents with blacks where you thought they were being treated wrong?
MRS. MOORE: I didn’t so far as associating with Oak Ridge. I didn’t live too far. I would get on the bus to come home. I didn’t have many associations with Oak Ridge. I really can’t say. I know they had them, but I can’t say ‘cause I wasn’t living in Oak Ridge. I didn’t live in Oak Ridge, I just went to work in Oak Ridge.
MR. ALBRECHT: I understand.
MRS. MOORE: There was a lot down there. They had dormitories for the white people. They never had dormitories for the blacks. They bring them in there and they had dormitories for the whites. In Clinton, people that had homes, would bring them in and board them or whatever. There was a big ole house over there and there was a friend of mine, all she did was keep these men boarded. She had men. Men would come there at night and spend the night. She would cook for them and when they come in the evening, she had dinner. But they didn’t have no living quarters like dormitories for the blacks until they brought those little huts up there.
MR. ALBRECHT: Tell me when you first discovered what the Manhattan Project was about. When you first discovered it was to build the atomic bomb, when did you discover when that was all about.
MRS. MOORE: After it was over with. That’s true. I didn’t know about it until after it was over with. We didn’t know nothing about it until it was all over with. That’s true. We had no knowledge of what was going on until it was all over with.
MR. ALBRECHT: Do you think they could keep that kind of secret today?
MRS. MOORE: No. No, no, no, no. The thing about, you know, I’m sorry to say this and I don’t want to offend you, but do you know that in my life I have watched people come and go and they always accusing the blacks of doing something. The blacks don’t build bombs and blow up things. They don’t do nothing like that, but it was like they were afraid of us and to give us a job in anything. (Laughter) I just learned that since I’ve been home, retired. I’ve been watching TV. As I said, a lot of the stuff that was going on, the blacks just didn’t know nothing about. I didn’t know nothing about the bomb until it was all over with.
MR. ALBRECHT: That’s amazing that they can keep that big a secret. That many people. I’m just jumping around with my questions.
MRS. MOORE: Well, they didn’t, in other words, I guess they must have thought that all blacks couldn’t read or write, but I didn’t go to college, but I could read and write. I think that they thought we couldn’t keep a secret if we read something, you know. I think they thought, “Oh, we can’t tell them that ‘cause they’ll tell everything.” We didn’t do that. They didn’t give us the opportunity. Any of them chemicals and things, we didn’t work with that.
MR. GREENE: Hey, Chris. A related question, how did, did you wonder when you saw this city springing up out here in Oak Ridge, did you all wonder what was going on? Did you speculate about what they were doing? Talk about that a little bit.
MRS. MOORE: Never did they say they were building a bomb to destroy Japan or anything. Never did they say that. All they said was they were making some kind of nuclear stuff. That’s all. We thought they were making medicine or something. We didn’t know what they were making. At least I didn’t. Lots of blacks didn’t know what they were doing. We did know because we didn’t have an opportunity to go to these places where they were doing that stuff.
MR. GREENE: How did you feel when you found out what it was about?
MRS. MOORE: Well, I’m a forgiving person and I can forgive anybody. I still got a forgiving heart, but we have been kicked back so far, I’m immune to them. If somebody does me wrong, I know and I pray about it. That’s the way I went along with them. I didn’t know what was going on, but after it was all over with I thought about it. I said, “Thank God the bomb wasn’t thrown on us,” you know. They could have done the same thing to us because we were right down there making a bomb. We as the blacks didn’t know it. If Japan had come and thrown a bomb on Oak Ridge, we would have been in it too, but we didn’t know what was going on. All we know was they were working with a nuclear some kind of something like that. They didn’t tell us it was a war weapon. To me I never known it to be said about that. That they talked about. Everybody was so secret they just didn’t talk about it. Most of the time whenever you go ready to go home, you didn’t have time to read nothing. You were too tired and too glad to get on that bus to come home because you’d be so tired and wore out.
MR. ALBRECHT: What other memories do you have of that period of time, the Manhattan Project. People you were with, or any other memories you have.
MRS. MOORE: Well, the only thing, as I said, I had a couple of girlfriends. They were from Middlebrook, Tennessee. They came down here to work and they moved into the huts. I came to see them, on Sunday afternoon or something. I really didn’t have a lot of people; I didn’t talk to many people. I didn’t know anyone. I didn’t know who they were and if I went to see Hattie and her sister, I was there a couple hours and then came back home. So I didn’t fool around ‘cause I didn’t know many people in Oak Ridge. Even after they went on over in the valley, I didn’t know a lot of people there. The only family that I really knew that worked and lived in the Valley was Anna May Weaver’s mother. Her and her mother, I lived in Oak Ridge for a little bit and we lived on the same street, but I didn’t associate. They had a little place in the Oak Ridge; on the block they called it. I couldn’t stand it. I didn’t party, I wasn’t a party person and I wasn’t a drinking person. Unless I went to a church function I didn’t associate with them. I didn’t associate with them because I was afraid of them. I really was afraid of them. I did. They going to be some good people everywhere and there were some good people out there and I know there were some good people. I know this, can’t call his name now, but he was a real close friend of mine. He was in the East Elder Church. Oh, what’s the name of that church, Bettye? This Methodist church out there? He used to be a part of that church. I would go to church functions and things like that. So as far as partying and associating and going to clubs, I didn’t do that. You have to leave me out of that. I was not associating with those people. I knew them, but I did not associate with them.
MR. ALBRECHT: You mentioned church, you were from your own little town and I assume you went to church there. You didn’t go to church in Oak Ridge then?
MRS. MOORE: No. No, I would go out there to church for singing or something, you know. We use to have group come out from Clinton, Ohio, called the Bob Singers and Oak Ridge would sponsor them a lot of times, to the church and I would go to that. But as far as going out there to associate, I never did do it. I knew a lot of people in Oak Ridge ‘cause I worked with a lot of people in Oak Ridge. When I was at Y-12, they were in Oak Ridge. I knew them. I still know them. I just went and visited them all the time.
MR. ALBRECHT: What else can you think of?
MR. GREENE: I was wondering if, do you remember where you were, I mean, we’ve seen pictures of people holding up signs that say the war is over, do you remember where you were and how you felt when that…
MRS. MOORE: What now?
MR. GREENE: When the announcement came out that the war was over…
MRS. MOORE: Yeah, I wasn’t in it. I knew about, I didn’t take a part of it. I knew about it.
MR. GREENE: How did you feel when you heard about it, knowing that you, what you did was part of the reason that the war ended?
MRS. MOORE: I wanted the war to be over with ‘cause I had a brother there, you know. And then I my fiancé was there and Rufus, Uncle Jack was there, I had people there in the war. I wanted the war to be over with. I was glad it was. I wasn’t in that fine [inaudible] ‘cause I didn’t have a car and I couldn’t go where I wanted to go. A lot of times that stuff would pass me by ‘cause I wasn’t able to get to it. I knew about it. I had an uncle in that war, [inaudible] I had family in that war.
MR. ALBRECHT: What else can you think of in terms of, people years from now are going to wonder about this period in history and maybe they will have a chance to see some of these tapes that we are doing, what would you want people in the future to know about what happened here and how it happened?
MRS. MOORE: In Oak Ridge?
MR. ALBRECHT: Yeah.
MRS. MOORE: Well, in a way it was a blessing to the whole surrounding of Oak Ridge, Harriman, Oliver Springs, Knoxville, everywhere because it opened up jobs that we never would have been able to do, you know. It opened up jobs to us. It gave us, we were able to go to the jobs. Like I said, a lot of women would go to Oak Ridge to work, day work, called day work. They didn’t even work at the plant, but after people started coming in there they were wanting someone to come clean up their houses and when they were bringing those huts in there, I mean flattops. People would come in there and clean those flattops up so people could move in there. At that time, when they were first moving the flattops, you had to have a badge to go in there, then after it opened up and the war was over, most everybody in the area wanted a good job, or a day’s work you go to Oak Ridge, you get you a day’s work. It paid better than what we were getting before the war, before this happened. I worked for $2.50 a week. And I babysat for 35 or 50 cents an hour. That’s how we were living, but before Oak Ridge was in there we were making out as best we could, but Oak Ridge was a blessing to the surrounding. I think in a way I know after it was over, but it opened an area for the poor people, black people in the area because we had a lot of people that just got on the bus, go down to Oak Ridge and just work all day, maybe on one day. If you made $5 an hour, that was good. $4 an hour, $2 an hour, didn’t matter, didn’t make more than $3 an hour that was good. Working before that we only got 50 cents an hour. So that’s what I’m saying about Oak Ridge, it was a blessing for them to come to our area to open up jobs and opportunities for us.
MR. ALBRECHT: Excellent. Excellent. During the war there were shortages of a lot of things. You had rationing cards and that type of thing. Having access to Oak Ridge were you able to get commodities easier because you were in Oak Ridge than you would have if you didn’t have Oak Ridge here?
MRS. MOORE: We had, we didn’t go into Oak Ridge, and we went to Clinton that would give commodities. I didn’t get them, but my mother did because she was the head of the house. My daddy died early. He was only 51 years old and she had some smaller children. Well I was the oldest one when my daddy died; I was the oldest one in the house. So she would go, we would go on the bus, go down to Clinton Highway and get on the bus to Clinton, me and her would carry us a sack. We’d get the commodities, well she was getting them, and I didn’t get them. She was getting them for us ‘cause we all lived in the house together. We didn’t go to Oak Ridge; we went to Clinton to get our commodities.
MR. ALBRECHT: Ok, thank you. Rick, anything else?
MR. GREENE: No, nothing I can think of.
MR. ALBRECHT: How much tape did we use?
MR. GREENE: We’re at 41 minutes.
MR. ALBRECHT: We used quite a bit.
MR. GREENE: Yeah.
MR. ALBRECHT: We had you talking for quite a while. You’ve shared some wonderful stories and we certainly appreciate that. What I would like to do, Mrs. Wilcox, I would like to get you on camera to tell a little bit about being a child and seeing the gates and some of the recollections you have of that time.
MRS. WILCOX: Ok, I don’t have near as much as she did.
MR. ALBRECHT: That’s fine.
MR. GREENE: You want me to stop the tape?
MR. ALBRECHT: Yes.
MR. GREENE: Did you have anything else you would like to say before we…
MRS. MOORE: Oh, I mean Bettye got me into this. I enjoyed getting acquainted with you all and talking with you all but I guess, I am the oldest one in my community where I live now, it used to be Jacksontown. I’m the oldest one living up there now. All of them gone. On March 5, I’ll be 89 years old.
MR. ALBRECHT: Really?
MRS. MOORE: I’ve seen Bettye come a long. I’ve seen Kattie, and my daughter and my sister; they all went to school together. I remember when they went to school they went to Clinton because we didn’t have a black school in Jacksontown. After they took our school away, Bettye had to go to Clinton. Bettye had to ride the bus every morning to get to school and things like that. Then after the war was over, they went to school in Clinton. I was talking to someone the other day. I can’t remember what year they took our school away, but it was, it had to been in the ‘30’s because my daughter was born in ’37, and my sister was born in ’36, and I think Bettye was born in ’35 and they all went to school in Clinton. There wasn’t no school, they went to Clinton school. That’s about the size of it, but other than that, as I told you the Manhattan Project when it came into Oak Ridge, it was a blessing to a lot of people, especially me. I was proud when I got me a job in Oak Ridge. I was making that $8.50 an hour, yeah, that was a whole lot of money. I stayed there until the war was over with; I stayed there in Oak Ridge. As I say I’ve been a long ways and I’ve always been able to treat people right, and I never had a problem with nobody, never. Never been to jail in my life, nothing like that. I think God has taken care of me, don’t you? I think He’s going to carry me on through. I thank you for asking me to come today because I am a part of Oak Ridge because I was there when they started cutting up the wood, clearing it off to build Oak Ridge, but I didn’t do that kind of work when I was out there.
MR. ALBRECHT: We thank you so much for sharing your stories with us ‘cause, yes, obviously you’ve been a blessed woman. You’ve had an interesting life and some interesting experiences. Thanks for sharing them with us.
MRS. MOORE: I enjoyed it thank you for asking me.
MR. GREENE: I’m going to stop…
[Break in video]
MR. GREENE: Tape speed.
MR. ALBRECHT: Ok, ok, Mrs. Wilcox, let’s start out the same way we did with Hazel, if you would just tell me your name and where you live, that way we have it identified on the tape.
MRS. WILCOX: I’m Bettye Wilcox and I live at 8062 Kamberly Drive, Powell, Tennessee.
MR. ALBRECHT: Thank you very much. Now tell me first of all during the Manhattan Project, during the war how old were you at that time?
MRS. WILCOX: Probably around 6, 7, or 8. I was, I can remember as far back, I can remember when they had the gates and that I had to have a pass, I never did have a badge because I wasn’t employed, but I had to have a pass and we would go down to visit some people, or to go to church.
MR. ALBRECHT: What did you have to do to get a pass?
MRS. WILCOX: You know, I don’t know. I think my parents had to do something. I don’t know what they had to do.
MR. ALBRECHT: Let me stop you just a second I want to coach you the way I did Hazel. When I ask you a question, try to rephrase what I’ve said so we know what you’re talking about. You’re saying, I asked you how you got a pass, you started telling me, but to get a pass this is what we had to do.
MRS. WILCOX: Ok. To get a pass into Oak Ridge, I’m not sure exactly how it was gotten, but it seems like my parents probably made some provisions to get me a pass in there. I can’t remember if I did anything to get it, but I knew I had to have a pass and I remember the guards at the gates when we would go in.
MR. ALBRECHT: Tell me a little bit about your parents. Did your parents work for the Manhattan Project and if they did what did they do?
MRS. WILCOX: No, my parents didn’t work. My dad worked at Ralph Rodgers and Company.
MRS. MOORE: Made all those roads.
MRS. WILCOX: Yes, but my mother she did some day work, but she didn’t work in the plants. Neither one of them worked inside Oak Ridge at the plants or such.
MR. ALBRECHT: Ok, I had asked the question because you had said something about your parents had gotten you the pass. I didn’t know if maybe your parents were employed out there.
MRS. WILCOX: No, I think they had to have passes too and that’s probably how they just went on and got me one too as they got theirs, because I think they weren’t allowed there either.
MR. ALBRECHT: When you went you were a young girl, got the pass and you went out there, what do you remember seeing when you went out there.
MRS. WILCOX: Not too much of, well just a lot of buildings that I hadn’t ever seen before, everything was just new looking to me and at the time we went in I can’t even remember if it was, if we ever visited anyone in the huts or if when we went they had Gamble Valley situated. I’m sure they didn’t have Gamble Valley situated then, so we must have been going to church, but I can’t remember going to anyone’s particularly their houses.
MR. ALBRECHT: You mentioned the huts. Did you remember seeing the huts when you went out there?
MRS. WILCOX: I think I do.
MR. ALBRECHT: I need you to tell me, “I remember seeing the huts.” So that way they know what we are talking about.
MRS. WILCOX: Well, they were just regular huts that I hadn’t seen before.
MRS. MOORE: (laughter)
MRS. WILCOX: To tell you the truth, that part, I just can’t even. The must I remember is going through the gates, to be perfectly frank. Now, as I got, I must have been about, I’m trying to think how old I was. I was going to school in Clinton and I can remember that I had my aunt as my, we had to go through primer and then first, and then when I got to the second grade, I got out of my aunt’s class and I was so happy because she was very hard on me. She didn’t want to make a difference. But when I got in the second grade that’s when I can remember that’s when Oak Ridge students started coming to Clinton and they use to come there in a station wagon and at that particular time I guess we sort of resented that a little bit. I know I did because I was what you call the coat girl and I would, we came from the rural, but I would take everybody’s coats and put them in the coat room. That was my job, but when Oak Ridge students started coming, and I can remember one particular girl, Robbie Robinson, and she said, well my teacher was being very fair because she wanted to make them feel like they were a part. So she said, “You’re going to have to share your responsibility with Robbie Robinson,” but that was my job. I was the coat girl. I didn’t like that. So anyway, I got on the playfield at recess time, and I’m sure I promoted that fight. That was the only fight I ever promoted, but she taught me a lesson. That’s the last one I promoted. I told her, I said, “That’s my job.” She just really tore me apart. That was a good lesson because I never had another fight in all of my schooling. The crowd kept saying, “Bettye, Bettye you won!” because there were more of us from Clinton and Claxton, and I said to myself I won nothing. When we got back the next morning I told her, “Your time” because we were suppose to be taking turns putting them coats in the coat room, but the next morning, I gladly told her, “Your time. The next morning’s my time.” She taught me a lesson, she did, but I think we all sort of resented that in a sense being selfish you know, but we didn’t know why they were coming. See they didn’t have any black school, that’s where they had to come until they got one over in Scarboro. I can’t remember how long they came, but I remember they started off with a station wagon. And this Robbie Robinson, she still lives there in Oak Ridge now.
MR. ALBRECHT: Do you ever still see her?
MRS. WILCOX: Huh?
MR. ALBRECHT: Do you ever still see her?
MRS. WILCOX: Yeah.
MR. ALBRECHT: Y’all are friends today.
MRS. WILCOX: Yep.
MR. ALBRECHT: That’s a funny story. How long after that was it when they desegregated the schools in Clinton?
MRS. WILCOX: I was a sophomore in college. I missed that, the summer maybe to be a sophomore in college, but I missed that by just a year or so.
MRS. MOORE: How many years? [inaudible] just got out of high school, the same year they integrated? What year was that?
MR. ALBRECHT: 1956.
MRS. WILCOX: Probably 1956 because I remember when I had go to state and then I came home that summer, it was ’55. I think it was ’56 because I had been gone to school and then I came home and that was the, when the, what do you call the people from, the troops came in. My mother was from Clinton, so all of her family came over to our place in Gatsontown, the National Guards came. So they spent that night and we found out the next morning that they had quieted everything down and they all went home. But it was the paper man that came through there, we did have a paper man, they almost got him because they didn’t know who he was. They forgot. Well my uncles and things were out there, my dad knew and they said, “No, no that’s the paper man”. We were all afraid, you know. They all left Clinton, our family. We had quite a few of them. I remember my cousin, she’s deceased now, we had a basement and it wasn’t steps to it, but we knew not to, I was in college, we knew not to go down there and to open that door. My cousin Hattie she was very inquisitive about everything and she fell down, she opened the door and fell down. It didn’t hurt her, scared her to death, and scared all of us to death. I can remember that very well. The night the National Guard came to Clinton to settle the ruckus.
MR. ALBRECHT: That’s a whole other subject and fascinating, but do you have any other Oak Ridge, Manhattan Project memories.
MRS. WILCOX: I don’t have that much. I can remember going there as a high school student and I did some babysitting. I stayed in Oak Ridge one summer and babysat this little boy and the lady was very kind to me. She let me drive her car and I’d go over to the Valley, and you know. The only thing I can remember about Oak Ridge really is that they had Greyhound buses at the bus station. All these workers would come in to do maid service, they would come in from all over, Knoxville and all over and they were doing maid service going to…
MRS. MOORE: That’s why we got rich.
MRS. WILCOX: When I would babysit, I would ride the bus too. So I saw that.
MR. ALBRECHT: When you were babysitting, did you still need passes?
MRS. WILCOX: No, no this was after. This was after.
MR. ALBRECHT: We out of tape?
MR. GREENE: Almost, but I have a question. You said your parents didn’t work at the plants.
MRS. WILCOX: No.
MR. GREENE: But were they a part of building the city of Oak Ridge?
MRS. WILCOX: No.
MR. GREENE: ‘Cause Ms. Hazel was talking about them building roads. I didn’t know if she was talking about roads in Oak Ridge.
MRS. WILCOX: No. When they bought, this is just hearsay, when they were building Oak Ridge, I think some of the people around here were a little leery of going, I think I heard stories of the females doing the rural work, helping build streets and what have you. It was war time. The men were all gone. The people surrounding had questions about Oak Ridge, but then Hazel said she got a job in the offices. None of the ones around here, but I heard tells that those women they did men’s work. That’s why for a while I guess the surrounding people were a little leery about doing it, and then later it got better.
MRS. MOORE: Don’t talk to me. May I say something right now?
MR. ALBRECHT: Certainly.
MRS. MOORE: Bettye’s father worked with Ralph Rodgers Quarry Company the whole time all these roads were build, he worked in the rock quarry. He worked right in that rock quarry. He wasn’t at the plant, but he worked in that rock quarry.
MRS. WILCOX: Yeah, he did.
MR. ALBRECHT: Hazel, I’ve got a question for you. We’re out of tape and you’re not on a microphone, but I’m just curious, in the reading that I’ve done about Oak Ridge and the talking to people I understand there were people that came to Oak Ridge that came from all over the country that came in here to work, and then there were the people that lived outside Oak Ridge, that lived in Clinton, that lived in Gatsontown, that lived all these places that were a little suspicious, didn’t trust them, frankly, didn’t like all these strangers coming into the area. Do you remember feelings like that?
MRS. MOORE: You’re right. That’s what I was saying. I knew these people and where they were coming from, but I didn’t associate with them, I didn’t.
MR. ALBRECHT: You stayed at arm’s length from them.
MRS. MOORE: We didn’t. They wouldn’t come in our community. There were very few that came in our community. Nobody lived in there, they come up to look at homes, but they didn’t. They may come for a ball game or something like that, or a dance. I told you we didn’t associate too much with, I learned more people in Oak Ridge after my daughter got married and moved to Oak Ridge, I go visit her. She belongs to the Elks Club and people now treat my niece, I got people that still ask about me. But I’m still alive. I just learned of people through them. I didn’t associate with them.
[End of Interview]

Click tabs to swap between content that is broken into logical sections.

ORAL HISTORIES OF HAZEL M. MOORE AND BETTYE WILCOX
Interviewed by Chris Albrecht
Filmed by Rick Greene
Significant Productions
February 10, 2006
Transcribed by Jordan Reed
MR. ALBRECHT: What I like to do to start with is just tell us your full name and where you live.
MRS. MOORE: I’m Hazel M. Moore. Mailing address is Powell, Tennessee, 113 Jacksontown Road.
MR. ALBRECHT: Ok. Thank you. Because you didn’t come to Oak Ridge, you were already here when you came to work at the plant, how old were you when the Manhattan Project started and you came to work there?
MRS. MOORE: At the time, I was in my, about 35, 36 years old.
MR. ALBRECHT: Ok. How did you learn that they were going to be hiring people out there?
MRS. MOORE: Through, well, we heard that there was going to be a Manhattan Project and we were just looking for work other than what we were doing. At that time, the employment office was outside of the gate. You didn’t have to go inside of a gate to the employment office. So we went there one morning, my cousin and I, and we got hired that day. We went to work with Roane-Anderson.
MR. ALBRECHT: Ok. You mentioned that you were 30-some years old at the time; tell us what you were doing before that employment opportunity in Oak Ridge.
MRS. MOORE: At that time, I was doing house work, taking care of children, things like that, housekeeping; I guess is what you call it. I was working in the homes.
MR. ALBRECHT: Ok. By the way, normally when I have a conversation with somebody and you’re telling me, I’d be saying, “Yeah” and “Uh-huh”- ing. Well I’m trying to keep my mouth shut so we don’t hear it on the tape. I’m sitting here nodding my head, but you can’t see that. So you were doing the housekeeping and so forth. Tell us about how much money you were making doing versus how much money you were making when you went to Oak Ridge.
MRS. MOORE: I started work at $2.50 a week.
MR. ALBRECHT: $2.50 a week was that housekeeping, or in Oak Ridge?
MRS. MOORE: Well, in other words I was living with a family that had two children and they were only paying me $2.50 a week.
MR. ALBRECHT: So how did that compare then to when you went to work in Oak Ridge?
MRS. MOORE: A whole lot. When I was hired into work in Oak Ridge, they started us out at 58 cents an hour.
MR. ALBRECHT: So 58 cents an hour was quite a bit more than a couple dollars a week.
MRS. MOORE: Mm-hmm.
MR. ALBRECHT: So tell us a little bit about the kind of work you were doing during the Manhattan Project in Oak Ridge. What buildings you were working in, that kind of thing.
MRS. MOORE: At that time, this building on the hill was called the Administration Building and it was run by Roane-Anderson and I was employed inside to cleaning offices, taking care of offices, cleaning offices.
MR. ALBRECHT: Taking care of offices…
MRS. MOORE: Like I was taking care of ash trays and dusting, sweeping and mopping in other words.
MR. ALBRECHT: With no disrespect meant, at that point in your life, were you literate, could you read and write?
MRS. MOORE: I didn’t understand you.
MR. ALBRECHT: Could you read and write at that point in your life? And I’ll tell you why I’m asking that question. I understand they hired a lot of people to clean offices that could not read. That way they didn’t have to worry about secrets being…
MRS. MOORE: Oh, I could read. I went to the eighth grade. I could read and write.
MR. ALBRECHT: Ok, very good. Like I said, the reason I ask is because I know they hired a lot of people just for that reason because of security issues.
MRS. MOORE: Oh, sure.
MR. ALBRECHT: Speaking of security issues, tell us what you remember about going to work out there. I know there were signs and so forth that talked, “Don’t tell people what you’re doing. Keep it a secret.” Tell us a little bit about what you remember about that.
MRS. MOORE: When I was working in the Administration Building, I got, somebody came and told me and my sister that Tennessee Eastman was out there and she and I went over and we got hired for Tennessee Eastman and I worked there until 1947, and at that time they were doing the bomb, you know. As you say, we didn’t know any secrets or anything. The only thing we did out there at Y-12 was we kept the building clean. I worked in the change house. I kept that. There was a cafeteria out there for us to eat in and things like that. I worked in building 92-01 at Y-12. That’s where I was hired at and that’s where I was terminated at. I stayed in that building the whole time I worked for Y-12. But like I said I didn’t know any secrets. All I did was sweeping and mopped, and taking care of the drinking fountains.
MR. ALBRECHT: Ok, that’s good. When you were working out there and cleaning the building at Y-12 did you work with other black people? Did you work with white people? Was it mixed?
MRS. MOORE: No, no, no, no. We had our own change house. We had our own facilities and as a group of black people in the building I was working with. We didn’t work with white people. Those that were in the operation part were white. We didn’t work with that. We just cleaned the building. We didn’t know anything about the bomb or anything like that.
MR. ALBRECHT: So tell me a little bit about where you lived and how you got back and forth to work and how long it took.
MRS. MOORE: I lived, not exactly where I am now, but right across. We got up every morning and went to Clinton Highway and caught the bus, the 7 o’clock bus, went to work, got off at 3; catch the bus to Clinton Highway, walked home.
MR. ALBRECHT: That’s easy enough. (Laughter) We talked a little bit earlier this afternoon and we talked about the huts and so forth. You said that you had seen those, you knew people that lived in them. Tell us a little bit about, you lived here where you live now basically, when you went in there and saw how other black people had it over there. Tell us a little bit about that.
MRS. MOORE: Well to me, they just put them; brought them up there to me it was bad because they had huts. They had huts for men and huts for women. They separated them. They had men on one side and women on the other side. I had a couple of friends at work that lived in the huts. That’s why I know about them. I’d go out there on Sunday afternoons or whatever and I’d visit them. But the men were on one side and the women on the other side. They didn’t have no family facilities at that time.
MR. ALBRECHT: Tell us a little bit about the huts, what you remember about them. I know they didn’t have running water. They didn’t have…
MRS. MOORE: No, they didn’t have running water. They didn’t have no place to eat. They had a building called a cafeteria and everybody went there to eat, three times a day. They had meals in there three times a day. When they were going to get off from work, they go there to eat and then go home, go to the huts. I think they had bathrooms or showers or something. I’m not sure of that. But they must have had some showers somewhere because when the men would get off from work they would come down to the cafeteria to eat. Well, women too. Everybody ate in the cafeteria and then everybody went to their hut to sleep. They didn’t have a place to have a stove or anything in the huts.
MR. ALBRECHT: You mentioned the cafeterias. When you were working, I assume you ate you probably ate breakfast at home and you ate supper at home, but what about your noon meal? Did you have to eat in the cafeteria?
MRS. MOORE: Do what sir?
MR. ALBRECHT: When you were working, your noon meal did you have to eat in the cafeteria?
MRS. MOORE: No. when I, well, no, and then yeah because first they started having outside of the gate and you could go by there and get you a cup of coffee in the morning, a good eat, or something like that. You took your own lunch. They finally, after they got, I think I had started at Y-12 when they finally got a cafeteria; yeah they finally got a cafeteria. But they had one for the blacks and one for the whites.
MR. ALBRECHT: Separate ones, one for the blacks and one for the whites. To the best of your knowledge, were they similar? Did they serve the same food?
MRS. MOORE: I guess they did. Now the outside what we used to call the Canteen, they served the same foods because we would go by and get a cup of coffee, cinnamon roll, biscuit, or whatever. We could get off the bus and go to it, before we went into the working area. We had to have a badge to go into the working area. You couldn’t go in unless you had a badge.
MR. ALBRECHT: Tell me a little bit about the badges and getting through the gates. What did that amount to?
MRS. MOORE: Well, it was a little square thing with your name and your picture on it, and you had to pin it on in the gates. Even when we get on the bus to get into Oak Ridge. They had a gate at Oak Ridge, they had one at Edgemoor, they had one at Clinton Highway, and they had one down… I didn’t go down that way, but the people going to Loudon and out that way, we all had to go through a gate to get into Oak Ridge. To get into Oak Ridge, you had to have a badge. When we would get to the gate, our gate, I was from Clinton Highway and I would ride the bus to Clinton and they would pick people up in Clinton and go to Oak Ridge, and we would go to Clinton Highway and that was called the Clinton Gate. Well there was a security guard there at the gate before the driver could go in, he would come in and see that you had your badge on before you went into the area.
MR. ALBRECHT: Do you still have your badge?
MRS. MOORE: Our house got burned, and it got burned up. I’m glad I don’t have it ‘cause it looked awful. (Laughter)
MR. ALBRECHT: Let me look at my questions here. Oh, tell me a little bit about, can you recount the story about when you were working up at the Administration Building about the ladies bringing in the water bottles.
MRS. MOORE: Well as I said, I was doing, they call them wings. It was sort of like a hall. There were so many girls on a hall. These women were coming inside and they would bring water into the Administration Building. They had water in bottles for drinking water, and at that time, they were flushing, they were coming in and flushing the commodes.
MR. ALBRECHT: Using that bottled water.
MRS. MOORE: Yeah, we had drinking water standup; it was water in a bottle that stood up. And we had to keep them clean too. But when Oak Ridge first began out there, when they were cutting wood and cutting trees and building out there, I was out there. But I didn’t do nothing like that. My job, I first got hired at the Administration Building and I stayed there until I went to Y-12.
MR. ALBRECHT: Let’s see, I’m going to ask some of my other questions here. What, some of your friends, what kind of work were other black people doing?
MRS. MOORE: Like I said they were building Oak Ridge. They were out there cutting trees and pulling in, they had these flattop houses. People were living in a flattop. They had a place called, a little area where they put these flattops in. Some ladies would go in and clean these for like lawyers and doctors, would have offices in these buildings. People would go in and clean those little things up. My aunt worked in one. She worked for the [inaudible]. Bettye, you remember Effie. Effie worked for the [inaudible]. She cleaned that building.
MR. ALBRECHT: That made me think of something and now I forgot what it was. So most of the other blacks that you knew out there were working in cleaning primarily, is that right?
MRS. MOORE: Yeah. Now I never done no, like Kattie and them working in the homes. When I was terminated from Y-12, I was home and this doctor in Clinton. I never will forget it, 1948. I got hired with Dr. Bishop. I stayed there for 11 years. Other than that, other than the Administration Building and Y-12, that’s all I did in Oak Ridge. I didn’t do no cleaning or working in homes in Oak Ridge. I didn’t do that.
MR. ALBRECHT: Ok. Tell me a little bit about how many of people from your family and how many of your friends, did you have a lot of family and friends that were working in Oak Ridge at this time?
MRS. MOORE: Well, most of them were. A lot of them were going in these homes they were working in homes, but they were making more money. These people in Oak Ridge paid good money to get their house clean. I had some friends that called themselves day workers. They’d go in one day, certain day they go here, and another day they go there. They made better money then than before Oak Ridge started. After Oak Ridge, most all the maids left and went to Oak Ridge. They lost the maids and went to work in Oak Ridge.
MR. GREENE: Chris?
MR. ALBRECHT: Yes.
MR. GREENE: Bettye had a good question.
MR. ALBRECHT: What’s that?
MR. GREENE: It’s, she was wondering if she remembered any construction workers, women construction workers, because there was a shortage of men because it was war time.
MRS. WILCOX: Hazel, do you remember those people that came from the deep South when they came? You’ll tell me if I’m wrong or not, ‘cause you know. Those women that first came when Oak Ridge was first being built. They practically build Oak Ridge, because the men were at war. Did you ever hear anything about that or could that be something I heard that wasn’t… Did you hear what I said?
MRS. MOORE: Yeah.
MRS. WILCOX: Did you know of any women working in the streets to help Oak Ridge?
MRS. MOORE: Yeah. I didn’t know none of them, but I know that a lot of them did that. Nobody from my family did that. In my community, none did. I got acquainted with a lot of people ‘cause there were two ladies that lived up in Lake City, they were out there cutting trees. They were out there, I didn’t go into that. I couldn’t cut stove wood when I was home. (Laughter)
MRS. WILCOX: They tried to save those from the deep South couldn’t…
MRS. MOORE: Most of the people that cleared Y-12, I mean, sorry, most the people that cleared the area to build Oak Ridge were from the South. They were brought up here. I don’t know of any one that ever did it in my family.
MR. ALBRECHT: That’s interesting. What, you were working in Oak Ridge and this was part of the war effort because it was the Manhattan Project. Did you have any of your family that were in the military that were off at war?
MRS. MOORE: Yeah, my oldest brother.
MR. ALBRECHT: Go ahead and tell us about what branch of the service he was in and so forth.
MRS. MOORE: Oh, he worked for communications, he worked in communications. He worked in [inaudible] and he got TB [tuberculosis] and he didn’t come out of it.
MR. ALBRECHT: Well, that’s rough. Let’s see what else I got here.
MRS. MOORE: We lost him for, when my daddy died he wasn’t even home. We couldn’t even find him.
MR. ALBRECHT: Tell me a little bit, talk a little bit about the effects of segregation during the time, like I assume there were water fountains that were labeled “whites only”…
MRS. MOORE: Yes.
MR. ALBRECHT: Restrooms and so forth…
MRS. MOORE: You don’t want me to tell that story.
MR. ALBRECHT: Tell us a little bit.
MRS. MOORE: You don’t want to hear it because I know that man is dead and gone. His name was Mr. Underwood. I know he’s dead and gone. I don’t know what he did, but he’s in this hall, and he chewed tobacco. In this hall, we had the white fountain right next to the black fountain. We had our sponges and Clorox and we had to clean those things. Certain time of day we had to clean them. I was there at one getting ready to do what I was suppose to do. Mr. Underwood came up to that fountain that said colored he got him a mouthful of water and he rinsed his mouth out, his tobacco out and spit it into the colored fountain. From that day on I couldn’t stand that man.
MR. ALBRECHT: I can understand that. So there were a lot of colored fountains, colored restrooms.
MRS. MOORE: Yeah we had all that.
MR. ALBRECHT: What about the cafeterias?
MRS. MOORE: Yeah, well, as I said, at first we had separate. It was the same cafeteria, but the black was on one side and the white were on the other. It was all in the same building, we went in one line and they went in another. Now that didn’t make sense did it?
MR. ALBRECHT: No.
MRS. MOORE: (Laughter)
MR. ALBRECHT: In the cafeteria where it was separated on either side, was the food the same?
MRS. MOORE: Yeah. They had black people cooking the food in the cafeteria; they had black people serving the food. But they had whites on one side and blacks on the other. That didn’t make sense.
MR. ALBRECHT: Not at all. Were there any other particular incidents with blacks where you thought they were being treated wrong?
MRS. MOORE: I didn’t so far as associating with Oak Ridge. I didn’t live too far. I would get on the bus to come home. I didn’t have many associations with Oak Ridge. I really can’t say. I know they had them, but I can’t say ‘cause I wasn’t living in Oak Ridge. I didn’t live in Oak Ridge, I just went to work in Oak Ridge.
MR. ALBRECHT: I understand.
MRS. MOORE: There was a lot down there. They had dormitories for the white people. They never had dormitories for the blacks. They bring them in there and they had dormitories for the whites. In Clinton, people that had homes, would bring them in and board them or whatever. There was a big ole house over there and there was a friend of mine, all she did was keep these men boarded. She had men. Men would come there at night and spend the night. She would cook for them and when they come in the evening, she had dinner. But they didn’t have no living quarters like dormitories for the blacks until they brought those little huts up there.
MR. ALBRECHT: Tell me when you first discovered what the Manhattan Project was about. When you first discovered it was to build the atomic bomb, when did you discover when that was all about.
MRS. MOORE: After it was over with. That’s true. I didn’t know about it until after it was over with. We didn’t know nothing about it until it was all over with. That’s true. We had no knowledge of what was going on until it was all over with.
MR. ALBRECHT: Do you think they could keep that kind of secret today?
MRS. MOORE: No. No, no, no, no. The thing about, you know, I’m sorry to say this and I don’t want to offend you, but do you know that in my life I have watched people come and go and they always accusing the blacks of doing something. The blacks don’t build bombs and blow up things. They don’t do nothing like that, but it was like they were afraid of us and to give us a job in anything. (Laughter) I just learned that since I’ve been home, retired. I’ve been watching TV. As I said, a lot of the stuff that was going on, the blacks just didn’t know nothing about. I didn’t know nothing about the bomb until it was all over with.
MR. ALBRECHT: That’s amazing that they can keep that big a secret. That many people. I’m just jumping around with my questions.
MRS. MOORE: Well, they didn’t, in other words, I guess they must have thought that all blacks couldn’t read or write, but I didn’t go to college, but I could read and write. I think that they thought we couldn’t keep a secret if we read something, you know. I think they thought, “Oh, we can’t tell them that ‘cause they’ll tell everything.” We didn’t do that. They didn’t give us the opportunity. Any of them chemicals and things, we didn’t work with that.
MR. GREENE: Hey, Chris. A related question, how did, did you wonder when you saw this city springing up out here in Oak Ridge, did you all wonder what was going on? Did you speculate about what they were doing? Talk about that a little bit.
MRS. MOORE: Never did they say they were building a bomb to destroy Japan or anything. Never did they say that. All they said was they were making some kind of nuclear stuff. That’s all. We thought they were making medicine or something. We didn’t know what they were making. At least I didn’t. Lots of blacks didn’t know what they were doing. We did know because we didn’t have an opportunity to go to these places where they were doing that stuff.
MR. GREENE: How did you feel when you found out what it was about?
MRS. MOORE: Well, I’m a forgiving person and I can forgive anybody. I still got a forgiving heart, but we have been kicked back so far, I’m immune to them. If somebody does me wrong, I know and I pray about it. That’s the way I went along with them. I didn’t know what was going on, but after it was all over with I thought about it. I said, “Thank God the bomb wasn’t thrown on us,” you know. They could have done the same thing to us because we were right down there making a bomb. We as the blacks didn’t know it. If Japan had come and thrown a bomb on Oak Ridge, we would have been in it too, but we didn’t know what was going on. All we know was they were working with a nuclear some kind of something like that. They didn’t tell us it was a war weapon. To me I never known it to be said about that. That they talked about. Everybody was so secret they just didn’t talk about it. Most of the time whenever you go ready to go home, you didn’t have time to read nothing. You were too tired and too glad to get on that bus to come home because you’d be so tired and wore out.
MR. ALBRECHT: What other memories do you have of that period of time, the Manhattan Project. People you were with, or any other memories you have.
MRS. MOORE: Well, the only thing, as I said, I had a couple of girlfriends. They were from Middlebrook, Tennessee. They came down here to work and they moved into the huts. I came to see them, on Sunday afternoon or something. I really didn’t have a lot of people; I didn’t talk to many people. I didn’t know anyone. I didn’t know who they were and if I went to see Hattie and her sister, I was there a couple hours and then came back home. So I didn’t fool around ‘cause I didn’t know many people in Oak Ridge. Even after they went on over in the valley, I didn’t know a lot of people there. The only family that I really knew that worked and lived in the Valley was Anna May Weaver’s mother. Her and her mother, I lived in Oak Ridge for a little bit and we lived on the same street, but I didn’t associate. They had a little place in the Oak Ridge; on the block they called it. I couldn’t stand it. I didn’t party, I wasn’t a party person and I wasn’t a drinking person. Unless I went to a church function I didn’t associate with them. I didn’t associate with them because I was afraid of them. I really was afraid of them. I did. They going to be some good people everywhere and there were some good people out there and I know there were some good people. I know this, can’t call his name now, but he was a real close friend of mine. He was in the East Elder Church. Oh, what’s the name of that church, Bettye? This Methodist church out there? He used to be a part of that church. I would go to church functions and things like that. So as far as partying and associating and going to clubs, I didn’t do that. You have to leave me out of that. I was not associating with those people. I knew them, but I did not associate with them.
MR. ALBRECHT: You mentioned church, you were from your own little town and I assume you went to church there. You didn’t go to church in Oak Ridge then?
MRS. MOORE: No. No, I would go out there to church for singing or something, you know. We use to have group come out from Clinton, Ohio, called the Bob Singers and Oak Ridge would sponsor them a lot of times, to the church and I would go to that. But as far as going out there to associate, I never did do it. I knew a lot of people in Oak Ridge ‘cause I worked with a lot of people in Oak Ridge. When I was at Y-12, they were in Oak Ridge. I knew them. I still know them. I just went and visited them all the time.
MR. ALBRECHT: What else can you think of?
MR. GREENE: I was wondering if, do you remember where you were, I mean, we’ve seen pictures of people holding up signs that say the war is over, do you remember where you were and how you felt when that…
MRS. MOORE: What now?
MR. GREENE: When the announcement came out that the war was over…
MRS. MOORE: Yeah, I wasn’t in it. I knew about, I didn’t take a part of it. I knew about it.
MR. GREENE: How did you feel when you heard about it, knowing that you, what you did was part of the reason that the war ended?
MRS. MOORE: I wanted the war to be over with ‘cause I had a brother there, you know. And then I my fiancé was there and Rufus, Uncle Jack was there, I had people there in the war. I wanted the war to be over with. I was glad it was. I wasn’t in that fine [inaudible] ‘cause I didn’t have a car and I couldn’t go where I wanted to go. A lot of times that stuff would pass me by ‘cause I wasn’t able to get to it. I knew about it. I had an uncle in that war, [inaudible] I had family in that war.
MR. ALBRECHT: What else can you think of in terms of, people years from now are going to wonder about this period in history and maybe they will have a chance to see some of these tapes that we are doing, what would you want people in the future to know about what happened here and how it happened?
MRS. MOORE: In Oak Ridge?
MR. ALBRECHT: Yeah.
MRS. MOORE: Well, in a way it was a blessing to the whole surrounding of Oak Ridge, Harriman, Oliver Springs, Knoxville, everywhere because it opened up jobs that we never would have been able to do, you know. It opened up jobs to us. It gave us, we were able to go to the jobs. Like I said, a lot of women would go to Oak Ridge to work, day work, called day work. They didn’t even work at the plant, but after people started coming in there they were wanting someone to come clean up their houses and when they were bringing those huts in there, I mean flattops. People would come in there and clean those flattops up so people could move in there. At that time, when they were first moving the flattops, you had to have a badge to go in there, then after it opened up and the war was over, most everybody in the area wanted a good job, or a day’s work you go to Oak Ridge, you get you a day’s work. It paid better than what we were getting before the war, before this happened. I worked for $2.50 a week. And I babysat for 35 or 50 cents an hour. That’s how we were living, but before Oak Ridge was in there we were making out as best we could, but Oak Ridge was a blessing to the surrounding. I think in a way I know after it was over, but it opened an area for the poor people, black people in the area because we had a lot of people that just got on the bus, go down to Oak Ridge and just work all day, maybe on one day. If you made $5 an hour, that was good. $4 an hour, $2 an hour, didn’t matter, didn’t make more than $3 an hour that was good. Working before that we only got 50 cents an hour. So that’s what I’m saying about Oak Ridge, it was a blessing for them to come to our area to open up jobs and opportunities for us.
MR. ALBRECHT: Excellent. Excellent. During the war there were shortages of a lot of things. You had rationing cards and that type of thing. Having access to Oak Ridge were you able to get commodities easier because you were in Oak Ridge than you would have if you didn’t have Oak Ridge here?
MRS. MOORE: We had, we didn’t go into Oak Ridge, and we went to Clinton that would give commodities. I didn’t get them, but my mother did because she was the head of the house. My daddy died early. He was only 51 years old and she had some smaller children. Well I was the oldest one when my daddy died; I was the oldest one in the house. So she would go, we would go on the bus, go down to Clinton Highway and get on the bus to Clinton, me and her would carry us a sack. We’d get the commodities, well she was getting them, and I didn’t get them. She was getting them for us ‘cause we all lived in the house together. We didn’t go to Oak Ridge; we went to Clinton to get our commodities.
MR. ALBRECHT: Ok, thank you. Rick, anything else?
MR. GREENE: No, nothing I can think of.
MR. ALBRECHT: How much tape did we use?
MR. GREENE: We’re at 41 minutes.
MR. ALBRECHT: We used quite a bit.
MR. GREENE: Yeah.
MR. ALBRECHT: We had you talking for quite a while. You’ve shared some wonderful stories and we certainly appreciate that. What I would like to do, Mrs. Wilcox, I would like to get you on camera to tell a little bit about being a child and seeing the gates and some of the recollections you have of that time.
MRS. WILCOX: Ok, I don’t have near as much as she did.
MR. ALBRECHT: That’s fine.
MR. GREENE: You want me to stop the tape?
MR. ALBRECHT: Yes.
MR. GREENE: Did you have anything else you would like to say before we…
MRS. MOORE: Oh, I mean Bettye got me into this. I enjoyed getting acquainted with you all and talking with you all but I guess, I am the oldest one in my community where I live now, it used to be Jacksontown. I’m the oldest one living up there now. All of them gone. On March 5, I’ll be 89 years old.
MR. ALBRECHT: Really?
MRS. MOORE: I’ve seen Bettye come a long. I’ve seen Kattie, and my daughter and my sister; they all went to school together. I remember when they went to school they went to Clinton because we didn’t have a black school in Jacksontown. After they took our school away, Bettye had to go to Clinton. Bettye had to ride the bus every morning to get to school and things like that. Then after the war was over, they went to school in Clinton. I was talking to someone the other day. I can’t remember what year they took our school away, but it was, it had to been in the ‘30’s because my daughter was born in ’37, and my sister was born in ’36, and I think Bettye was born in ’35 and they all went to school in Clinton. There wasn’t no school, they went to Clinton school. That’s about the size of it, but other than that, as I told you the Manhattan Project when it came into Oak Ridge, it was a blessing to a lot of people, especially me. I was proud when I got me a job in Oak Ridge. I was making that $8.50 an hour, yeah, that was a whole lot of money. I stayed there until the war was over with; I stayed there in Oak Ridge. As I say I’ve been a long ways and I’ve always been able to treat people right, and I never had a problem with nobody, never. Never been to jail in my life, nothing like that. I think God has taken care of me, don’t you? I think He’s going to carry me on through. I thank you for asking me to come today because I am a part of Oak Ridge because I was there when they started cutting up the wood, clearing it off to build Oak Ridge, but I didn’t do that kind of work when I was out there.
MR. ALBRECHT: We thank you so much for sharing your stories with us ‘cause, yes, obviously you’ve been a blessed woman. You’ve had an interesting life and some interesting experiences. Thanks for sharing them with us.
MRS. MOORE: I enjoyed it thank you for asking me.
MR. GREENE: I’m going to stop…
[Break in video]
MR. GREENE: Tape speed.
MR. ALBRECHT: Ok, ok, Mrs. Wilcox, let’s start out the same way we did with Hazel, if you would just tell me your name and where you live, that way we have it identified on the tape.
MRS. WILCOX: I’m Bettye Wilcox and I live at 8062 Kamberly Drive, Powell, Tennessee.
MR. ALBRECHT: Thank you very much. Now tell me first of all during the Manhattan Project, during the war how old were you at that time?
MRS. WILCOX: Probably around 6, 7, or 8. I was, I can remember as far back, I can remember when they had the gates and that I had to have a pass, I never did have a badge because I wasn’t employed, but I had to have a pass and we would go down to visit some people, or to go to church.
MR. ALBRECHT: What did you have to do to get a pass?
MRS. WILCOX: You know, I don’t know. I think my parents had to do something. I don’t know what they had to do.
MR. ALBRECHT: Let me stop you just a second I want to coach you the way I did Hazel. When I ask you a question, try to rephrase what I’ve said so we know what you’re talking about. You’re saying, I asked you how you got a pass, you started telling me, but to get a pass this is what we had to do.
MRS. WILCOX: Ok. To get a pass into Oak Ridge, I’m not sure exactly how it was gotten, but it seems like my parents probably made some provisions to get me a pass in there. I can’t remember if I did anything to get it, but I knew I had to have a pass and I remember the guards at the gates when we would go in.
MR. ALBRECHT: Tell me a little bit about your parents. Did your parents work for the Manhattan Project and if they did what did they do?
MRS. WILCOX: No, my parents didn’t work. My dad worked at Ralph Rodgers and Company.
MRS. MOORE: Made all those roads.
MRS. WILCOX: Yes, but my mother she did some day work, but she didn’t work in the plants. Neither one of them worked inside Oak Ridge at the plants or such.
MR. ALBRECHT: Ok, I had asked the question because you had said something about your parents had gotten you the pass. I didn’t know if maybe your parents were employed out there.
MRS. WILCOX: No, I think they had to have passes too and that’s probably how they just went on and got me one too as they got theirs, because I think they weren’t allowed there either.
MR. ALBRECHT: When you went you were a young girl, got the pass and you went out there, what do you remember seeing when you went out there.
MRS. WILCOX: Not too much of, well just a lot of buildings that I hadn’t ever seen before, everything was just new looking to me and at the time we went in I can’t even remember if it was, if we ever visited anyone in the huts or if when we went they had Gamble Valley situated. I’m sure they didn’t have Gamble Valley situated then, so we must have been going to church, but I can’t remember going to anyone’s particularly their houses.
MR. ALBRECHT: You mentioned the huts. Did you remember seeing the huts when you went out there?
MRS. WILCOX: I think I do.
MR. ALBRECHT: I need you to tell me, “I remember seeing the huts.” So that way they know what we are talking about.
MRS. WILCOX: Well, they were just regular huts that I hadn’t seen before.
MRS. MOORE: (laughter)
MRS. WILCOX: To tell you the truth, that part, I just can’t even. The must I remember is going through the gates, to be perfectly frank. Now, as I got, I must have been about, I’m trying to think how old I was. I was going to school in Clinton and I can remember that I had my aunt as my, we had to go through primer and then first, and then when I got to the second grade, I got out of my aunt’s class and I was so happy because she was very hard on me. She didn’t want to make a difference. But when I got in the second grade that’s when I can remember that’s when Oak Ridge students started coming to Clinton and they use to come there in a station wagon and at that particular time I guess we sort of resented that a little bit. I know I did because I was what you call the coat girl and I would, we came from the rural, but I would take everybody’s coats and put them in the coat room. That was my job, but when Oak Ridge students started coming, and I can remember one particular girl, Robbie Robinson, and she said, well my teacher was being very fair because she wanted to make them feel like they were a part. So she said, “You’re going to have to share your responsibility with Robbie Robinson,” but that was my job. I was the coat girl. I didn’t like that. So anyway, I got on the playfield at recess time, and I’m sure I promoted that fight. That was the only fight I ever promoted, but she taught me a lesson. That’s the last one I promoted. I told her, I said, “That’s my job.” She just really tore me apart. That was a good lesson because I never had another fight in all of my schooling. The crowd kept saying, “Bettye, Bettye you won!” because there were more of us from Clinton and Claxton, and I said to myself I won nothing. When we got back the next morning I told her, “Your time” because we were suppose to be taking turns putting them coats in the coat room, but the next morning, I gladly told her, “Your time. The next morning’s my time.” She taught me a lesson, she did, but I think we all sort of resented that in a sense being selfish you know, but we didn’t know why they were coming. See they didn’t have any black school, that’s where they had to come until they got one over in Scarboro. I can’t remember how long they came, but I remember they started off with a station wagon. And this Robbie Robinson, she still lives there in Oak Ridge now.
MR. ALBRECHT: Do you ever still see her?
MRS. WILCOX: Huh?
MR. ALBRECHT: Do you ever still see her?
MRS. WILCOX: Yeah.
MR. ALBRECHT: Y’all are friends today.
MRS. WILCOX: Yep.
MR. ALBRECHT: That’s a funny story. How long after that was it when they desegregated the schools in Clinton?
MRS. WILCOX: I was a sophomore in college. I missed that, the summer maybe to be a sophomore in college, but I missed that by just a year or so.
MRS. MOORE: How many years? [inaudible] just got out of high school, the same year they integrated? What year was that?
MR. ALBRECHT: 1956.
MRS. WILCOX: Probably 1956 because I remember when I had go to state and then I came home that summer, it was ’55. I think it was ’56 because I had been gone to school and then I came home and that was the, when the, what do you call the people from, the troops came in. My mother was from Clinton, so all of her family came over to our place in Gatsontown, the National Guards came. So they spent that night and we found out the next morning that they had quieted everything down and they all went home. But it was the paper man that came through there, we did have a paper man, they almost got him because they didn’t know who he was. They forgot. Well my uncles and things were out there, my dad knew and they said, “No, no that’s the paper man”. We were all afraid, you know. They all left Clinton, our family. We had quite a few of them. I remember my cousin, she’s deceased now, we had a basement and it wasn’t steps to it, but we knew not to, I was in college, we knew not to go down there and to open that door. My cousin Hattie she was very inquisitive about everything and she fell down, she opened the door and fell down. It didn’t hurt her, scared her to death, and scared all of us to death. I can remember that very well. The night the National Guard came to Clinton to settle the ruckus.
MR. ALBRECHT: That’s a whole other subject and fascinating, but do you have any other Oak Ridge, Manhattan Project memories.
MRS. WILCOX: I don’t have that much. I can remember going there as a high school student and I did some babysitting. I stayed in Oak Ridge one summer and babysat this little boy and the lady was very kind to me. She let me drive her car and I’d go over to the Valley, and you know. The only thing I can remember about Oak Ridge really is that they had Greyhound buses at the bus station. All these workers would come in to do maid service, they would come in from all over, Knoxville and all over and they were doing maid service going to…
MRS. MOORE: That’s why we got rich.
MRS. WILCOX: When I would babysit, I would ride the bus too. So I saw that.
MR. ALBRECHT: When you were babysitting, did you still need passes?
MRS. WILCOX: No, no this was after. This was after.
MR. ALBRECHT: We out of tape?
MR. GREENE: Almost, but I have a question. You said your parents didn’t work at the plants.
MRS. WILCOX: No.
MR. GREENE: But were they a part of building the city of Oak Ridge?
MRS. WILCOX: No.
MR. GREENE: ‘Cause Ms. Hazel was talking about them building roads. I didn’t know if she was talking about roads in Oak Ridge.
MRS. WILCOX: No. When they bought, this is just hearsay, when they were building Oak Ridge, I think some of the people around here were a little leery of going, I think I heard stories of the females doing the rural work, helping build streets and what have you. It was war time. The men were all gone. The people surrounding had questions about Oak Ridge, but then Hazel said she got a job in the offices. None of the ones around here, but I heard tells that those women they did men’s work. That’s why for a while I guess the surrounding people were a little leery about doing it, and then later it got better.
MRS. MOORE: Don’t talk to me. May I say something right now?
MR. ALBRECHT: Certainly.
MRS. MOORE: Bettye’s father worked with Ralph Rodgers Quarry Company the whole time all these roads were build, he worked in the rock quarry. He worked right in that rock quarry. He wasn’t at the plant, but he worked in that rock quarry.
MRS. WILCOX: Yeah, he did.
MR. ALBRECHT: Hazel, I’ve got a question for you. We’re out of tape and you’re not on a microphone, but I’m just curious, in the reading that I’ve done about Oak Ridge and the talking to people I understand there were people that came to Oak Ridge that came from all over the country that came in here to work, and then there were the people that lived outside Oak Ridge, that lived in Clinton, that lived in Gatsontown, that lived all these places that were a little suspicious, didn’t trust them, frankly, didn’t like all these strangers coming into the area. Do you remember feelings like that?
MRS. MOORE: You’re right. That’s what I was saying. I knew these people and where they were coming from, but I didn’t associate with them, I didn’t.
MR. ALBRECHT: You stayed at arm’s length from them.
MRS. MOORE: We didn’t. They wouldn’t come in our community. There were very few that came in our community. Nobody lived in there, they come up to look at homes, but they didn’t. They may come for a ball game or something like that, or a dance. I told you we didn’t associate too much with, I learned more people in Oak Ridge after my daughter got married and moved to Oak Ridge, I go visit her. She belongs to the Elks Club and people now treat my niece, I got people that still ask about me. But I’m still alive. I just learned of people through them. I didn’t associate with them.
[End of Interview]