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The only reason Luffy struggled against Hody was because he was using drugs and the fact that they were fighting underwater where fishmen are stronger.

im focusing more on the fact its happening. actually he always takes the biggest beating. its probably going to take its toll on him eventually. i mean, he's already lost a chunk of life from magellan/ivankov poison issues. and now that they're in the new world it will only be more punishment. like others, im starting to see how he could actually die from the abuse

At least as far as Vergo goes, I'm still not entirely convinced that he's down for the count just yet. I mean, all Law really did was split his body apart and restrained him. Since Dofla is on his way to PH now I can see him freeing Vergo from his predicament so he'll be combat-ready again. We at least know that he's no slouch since he even gave Sanji (one of the monster trio) and Smoker some trouble, so I can see him still being very much of a credible threat once he's pieced back together.....

Ask yourself this: Is Kinemon dead?
Do you really think Oda would end him like this? There's probably a 1% chance of that happening.
So I doubt it's the end of both of them and I'm not even 100% convinced that Monet died, and she got stabbed through the heart.
Oda hardly ever kills characters, not even those that don't matter anymore.

Power scaling. Ask yourself: are the monster trio top-tier? Many people (myself included) don't see them as top-tier fighters at this point even though they have yet to show off their full capabilities.

on the Scale 1-10
The Trio are a 9.
Just below the Yonkou and Admirals.

It's always a problematic issue when we start arguing about straw hats being stronger/weaker than Emperors/Admirals/Shichibukai.

There is no base line for power in One Piece,most of the time it comes down to a few things in a fight :

Experience
DF/Power
And at this point Haki.
Should i add Will ?Because in most Luffy's fights that's what got him the wins.

Right now the straw-hats don't know anything the Admirals/Emperors don't know,except for their DF abilities/Fighting Style.

So it's really hard to judge whether the straw-hats are stronger or weaker than any other character in one piece,because even though their Haki might be less powerful than that of an Emperor,I'm sure they developed techniques to help them increase the effectiveness of an attack/technique to make it more powerful.

Take Luffy for example who combines Gear 2nd with Haki to create the Red Hawk,I'm sure an attack like that wouldn't be easily taken even by the most powerful Haki user.We might even see him going to the extreme in desperate times and combine it with Gear 3rd which would probably crack the best defense in existence.

Also I'm sure we haven't seen ANYTHING from the trio yet,I'm sure they have more than just overused old techniques which can now be performed with ease.

I'm in the same ballpark as marvelB in that I'd rate the monster trio anywhere from a 7 to 7.5. I suspect Doflamingo is going to be an 8, and he'll serve as the breakthrough for Luffy entering the low-top-tier bracket.

Why are people so damn eager to have the Luffy already near Yonkou and Admiral level? Christ, there's still so much of the manga to fill...

Maybe it's cause they expected a bigger power level jump than (from here on it's my estimate of luffy's level on the chart) Low-mid VA to mid-high VA. Since Rayleigh did train him and he did end up as "king of the island."

Maybe it's cause they expected a bigger power level jump than (from here on it's my estimate of luffy's level on the chart) Low-mid VA to mid-high VA. Since Rayleigh did train him and he did end up as "king of the island."

Then either the VA's have gotten a big boost or Pacifista's are really underpowered. Don't forget Luffy destroyed a pacifista with just 1 haki punch and pre time skip he was never seen to be outmatched by any VA.

I personally think that Luffy is just below admiral/yonkou level. I really don't see him increasing his strength any more then what is natural (more strength/speed and better Haki). So no new gears no new mysterious powers just "natural" progression. So no 1 on 1 with an admiral/yonkou he's toast but at least now he should be able to escape if needed.

Does that really count?
Luffy was on death's door only fighting to save Ace. He wasn't fighting to beat them just to get past them.

Of course it does. Ivankov's hormone injections kept him going beyond his limits, so him being on death's door is a moot point. Luffy was outclassed in the war and he knew that going in. Alongside the admirals and shichibukai, Ivankov also specifically mentioned the VAs as powerful adversaries to warn Luffy of the impending danger to come. Circumstances aside, Luffy got owned.

Of course it does. Ivankov's hormone injections kept him going beyond his limits, so him being on death's door is a moot point. Luffy was outclassed in the war and he knew that going in. Alongside the admirals and shichibukai, Ivankov also specifically mentioned the VAs as powerful adversaries to warn Luffy of the impending danger to come. Circumstances aside, Luffy got owned.

Of course it doesn't. How can anyone that just went through a near death experience and fighting on performance boosting hormones ever be compared to someone that is in tip top shape? He was also clearly focused on one thing; stopping ace's execution (he gave up 20years of his lifespan for that end). I find it highly unlikely that anyone in that situation would focus on the subsequent fights. Luffy also proved he wasn't into the fight by constantly running away and shouting Ace.
So no I can't see this as proof of current Luffy being on mid/high VA level, I think he surpassed them ever since the time skip.

Btw I'm not saying any of the VA's are weak. They might proof just as much a challenge as Lucci, or more so. But no I don't believe any 1 of them can or could ever steamroll Luffy.

It could be though that the VA's are a lot tougher then I give them credit for but I just haven't seen the proof yet.
And no Vergo and Smoker don't really count. Smoker never wanted a promotion before meeting Luffy and Vergo is the right hand man of 1 of the most powerful shichibukai, both are also introduced post time skip as VA's.

Of course it doesn't. How can anyone that just went through a near death experience and fighting on performance boosting hormones ever be compared to someone that is in tip top shape? He was also clearly focused on one thing; stopping ace's execution (he gave up 20years of his lifespan for that end). I find it highly unlikely that anyone in that situation would focus on the subsequent fights. Luffy also proved he wasn't into the fight by constantly running away and shouting Ace.
So no I can't see this as proof of current Luffy being on mid/high VA level, I think he surpassed them ever since the time skip.

Btw I'm not saying any of the VA's are weak. They might proof just as much a challenge as Lucci, or more so. But no I don't believe any 1 of them can or could ever steamroll Luffy.

It could be though that the VA's are a lot tougher then I give them credit for but I just haven't seen the proof yet.
And no Vergo and Smoker don't really count. Smoker never wanted a promotion before meeting Luffy and Vergo is the right hand man of 1 of the most powerful shichibukai, both are also introduced post time skip as VA's.

There's no evidence supporting that Luffy could tango with the VAs pre-skip. Back then, he was quite frankly pathetic compared to the high tiers and top tiers. It took the combined efforts of the entire strawhat crew to take down just one pacifista. The VAs are of a much higher caliber than that.

And I'm not talking about post-skip here. I was commenting on your assessment of Luffy's strength pre-skip. None of his feats at that time demonstrate he could deal with the VAs. He didn't even know how to manifest his haki back then, an ability which all of the VAs are adept at. All of the evidence presented by Oda regarding the VAs is indicative of them being superior to Luffy pre-skip.

Vergo and Smoker most certainly count. A VA is a VA. The only real outlier amongst the VAs is/was Garp.

Oh yea, let's not forget that it took the WHOLE CREW to BARELY defeat a Pacifista pre-timeskip...and Luffy's timeskip power jump allowed him to ONE-SHOT A PACIFISTA. Luffy, Zoro and Sanji went from being helpless against a pacifista alone to destroying one in a single hit...they literally became much stronger than their whole pre-timeskip CREW. The Pacifista was 1/8th of Kuma's strength if I remember correctly...and I highly highly highly doubt Kuma is admiral/yonkou level, even pos-timeskip with the upgrades.

And I've had this conversation in the anime thread before but...VAs don't have that position because they are pretty and shiny...there FEW VAs in the marines, it's not a position that many have at all (I think there's like 12 or something). Plus all VAs are Haki users...and most look like they know Rokushiki too.

So what if Rey trained him? You can be trained by the strongest fighter in the world for two years and not become top level...having a powerful teacher helps a lot, but it doesn't mean you're instantly top level once you're done.
PLUS, Rey only taught him Haki, he didn't teach him anything else and left once Luffy learned all he could about Haki...the rest of Luffy's training came from living on that island.

I do not get why people want Luffy to be at the top level so soon...THEY JUST GOT TO THE NW...for christ sakes, we are the half way point and you want him to be at the top level? You want the crew to have three guys near, if not at yonkou level so soon? Why? So they can easily destroy everyone they meet and be boring? Having Luffy be much stronger than the enemy is fun and all but it quickly grows boring...there's no sense of danger if he is as strong as the strongest guys.

There's no evidence supporting that Luffy could tango with the VAs pre-skip. Back then, he was quite frankly pathetic compared to the high tiers and top tiers. It took the combined efforts of the entire strawhat crew to take down just one pacifista. The VAs are of a much higher caliber than that.

And I'm not talking about post-skip here. I was commenting on your assessment of Luffy's strength pre-skip. None of his feats at that time demonstrate he could deal with the VAs. He didn't even know how to manifest his haki back then, an ability which all of the VAs are adept at. All of the evidence presented by Oda regarding the VAs is indicative of them being superior to Luffy pre-skip.

Vergo and Smoker most certainly count. A VA is a VA. The only real outlier amongst the VAs is/was Garp.

You mean Luffy taking out 2 Shichibukai is something anyone could do? Granted the croc fight was a plot armor fight but he still beat him. And you are still forgetting Rob Lucci, even the VA's respected him yet Luffy beat him. I'm not saying the VA's can't beat him, I'm saying Luffy was already close to VA strength. Ofcourse we don't know for sure how strong they are, but that also means we don't know if all of them could beat Luffy. There's just no evidence to support your claim. And again we have no clue as to how strong a VA is compared to a Pacifista. If a VA is capable of defeating a pacifista in 1 blow just like Luffy then I wonder why none of the VA's could stop Luffy in the Marineford arc. Their strength is unproven until we see them actually fight.

I don't count Vergo and Smoker because 1 has said to chase Luffy to the end of the Grandline and the other is a right hand man of 1 of the strongest Shichibukai, they don't follow the normal VA pattern.

And Haki has been a mess ever since it was introduced. Ace never knew Haki and it only proved disastrous against Blackbeard and Akainu, arguably 2 top 10 fighters. Yet he was still seen blowing away marine ships.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Randrak42

Oh yea, let's not forget that it took the WHOLE CREW to BARELY defeat a Pacifista pre-timeskip...and Luffy's timeskip power jump allowed him to ONE-SHOT A PACIFISTA. Luffy, Zoro and Sanji went from being helpless against a pacifista alone to destroying one in a single hit...they literally became much stronger than their whole pre-timeskip CREW. The Pacifista was 1/8th of Kuma's strength if I remember correctly...and I highly highly highly doubt Kuma is admiral/yonkou level, even pos-timeskip with the upgrades.

And I've had this conversation in the anime thread before but...VAs don't have that position because they are pretty and shiny...there FEW VAs in the marines, it's not a position that many have at all (I think there's like 12 or something). Plus all VAs are Haki users...and most look like they know Rokushiki too.

So what if Rey trained him? You can be trained by the strongest fighter in the world for two years and not become top level...having a powerful teacher helps a lot, but it doesn't mean you're instantly top level once you're done.
PLUS, Rey only taught him Haki, he didn't teach him anything else and left once Luffy learned all he could about Haki...the rest of Luffy's training came from living on that island.

I do not get why people want Luffy to be at the top level so soon...THEY JUST GOT TO THE NW...for christ sakes, we are the half way point and you want him to be at the top level? You want the crew to have three guys near, if not at yonkou level so soon? Why? So they can easily destroy everyone they meet and be boring? Having Luffy be much stronger than the enemy is fun and all but it quickly grows boring...there's no sense of danger if he is as strong as the strongest guys.

When One Piece started Luffy didn't gain any power up till the water 7 arc. I'm inclined to think that the same will happen now. Luffy will remain just as strong till we are almost halfway through the 2nd half of the grandline. Oda has never used that many power ups and it has really helped to keep the story interesting. So no I don't see the problem in the trio to be High level. Will they be able to go toe to toe with admirals, no. But I don't see any VA stop them if things get real.

You mean Luffy taking out 2 Shichibukai is something anyone could do? Granted the croc fight was a plot armor fight but he still beat him. And you are still forgetting Rob Lucci, even the VA's respected him yet Luffy beat him. I'm not saying the VA's can't beat him, I'm saying Luffy was already close to VA strength. Ofcourse we don't know for sure how strong they are, but that also means we don't know if all of them could beat Luffy. There's just no evidence to support your claim. And again we have no clue as to how strong a VA is compared to a Pacifista. If a VA is capable of defeating a pacifista in 1 blow just like Luffy then I wonder why none of the VA's could stop Luffy in the Marineford arc. Their strength is unproven until we see them actually fight.

I don't count Vergo and Smoker because 1 has said to chase Luffy to the end of the Grandline and the other is a right hand man of 1 of the strongest Shichibukai, they don't follow the normal VA pattern.

And Haki has been a mess ever since it was introduced. Ace never knew Haki and it only proved disastrous against Blackbeard and Akainu, arguably 2 top 10 fighters. Yet he was still seen blowing away marine ships.

Luffy's victories over Croc and Moria were heavily circumstantial and filled with plot armor. Their not indicative of Luffy being superior to Croc and Moria pre-skip. I knew you were going to bring up Lucci. And while he was respected and acknowledged by the VAs, that's it. Even Kuma gave him praise when he was surprised to learn of Lucci's defeat. But Lucci simply isn't on the level of these guys. VA rank is a promotion away from admiral status. Just think about that. These guys are veterans and have been around since the days of Roger's era. They have tons of battle experience and are second only to the admirals. And as mentioned already, there are very few VAs in the entire marines force (16 total), which means that it's a rank indicative of exceptional quality and caliber.

Luffy survived the war due to plot armor. You know that, so don't base your strength assessments of the VAs on that arc. Mihawk and the admirals didn't kill Luffy either, even though it would be a piece of cake to do that for them.

Again, the only real outlier in the VAs is/was Garp because he's admiral level.

Luffy's victories over Croc and Moria were heavily circumstantial and filled with plot armor. Their not indicative of Luffy being superior to Croc and Moria pre-skip. I knew you were going to bring up Lucci. And while he was respected and acknowledged by the VAs, that's it. Even Kuma gave him praise when he was surprised to learn of Lucci's defeat. But Lucci simply isn't on the level of these guys. VA rank is a promotion away from admiral status. Just think about that. These guys are veterans and have been around since the days of Roger's era. They have tons of battle experience and are second only to the admirals. And as mentioned already, there are very few VAs in the entire marines force (16 total), which means that it's a rank indicative of exceptional quality and caliber.

Luffy survived the war due to plot armor. You know that, so don't base your strength assessments of the VAs on that arc. Mihawk and the admirals didn't kill Luffy either, even though it would be a piece of cake to do that for them.

Again, the only real outlier in the VAs is/was Garp because he's admiral level.

Ace was a high tier, and Luffy was much weaker than him pre-skip.

Yet I still doubt all those VA's could defeat pre time skip Luffy. It also begs the question what the use is for the Shichibukai. The Shichibukai were introduced to counter the yonkou's, but if all VA's are that strong the Shichibukai seem like overkill and do not offset the risk they pose.
I just think that like the Shichibukai there is a world of difference between the different VA's. And that it isn't clear cut victory for any VA vs pre-time skip Luffy.