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2013-14 Game Thread: Knicks v. Bulls

Game two, y’all! A brief trip to the land of hog-butchers and heady winds. It is also All Hallowe’s Eve, which means the Knicks will be sporting their brand-spanking new orange duds and the Chicagoans will be resplendent in their black alts! Orange + Black = CANDY!

Speaking of which, Amar’e Stoudemire gets his turn in the aged PF/C wheel tonight, and earlier today, he voiced his views on this evening’s merriment (Halloween, not the game, to be clear). They are…interesting. Here are some thoughts o’ mine over at our interweb pals, The Classical:

And then there are the more fervent types—a thing we never saw in our old UWS Halloweens—that screech spittlingly that this is a night that celebrates (somehow) both PAGANISM and SATAN, and that there’s something something truly dark-sided in a kid wearing a plastic Dark Knight mask. Presumably even the crappy ones your Mom got at Woolworth’s with a shirt/smock with words like, “Batman! POW!” printed on the front.

Evidently, that’s no longer the case. Earlier today, he released this Ghostbuster-y anti-pumpkin logo via Instagram with the caption, “As the Children of Israel (Jacob) we must separate ourselves from anything pagan. #BlessedBeTheCreator #YHWH #GodBody”

Two, outside of all the nifty things he does on the court, Amar’e Stoudemire’s clearly an inquisitive, spiritual guy. His ongoing quest to plumb the depths of his (possibly apocryphal) Judaic roots, his trips to Israel, and so on, but I never associated The Chosen People™ with anti-Halloween jeremiads. Execute a quick Google search and you’ll see that for the Orthodox/Conservative set, it is verboten.

The argument(s) seem to be partially out of some sense of misplaced jealousy that Purim doesn’t get the publicity it should combined with the same finger-wagging about encouraging Paganism/mischief making/children acting like…well…children that forms the basis of the non-Semitic version:

“Let me tell you about a wonderful Jewish holiday: once a year, our children dress up as sages, princesses, heroes and clowns. They drop by the homes of our community, visit the infirm and the aged, spreading joy and laughter. They bring gifts of food and drink and collect tzedakah (charity) for the needy. You guessed it—it’s called Purim, when it’s customary to send mishloach manot—gifts of food—to one’s friends and even more gifts to those in hard times. Flip it over (October instead of March, demanding instead of giving, scaring instead of rejoicing, demons instead of sages, etc.) and you have Halloween. There you have it: a choice of one of two messages you can give to your children.”

In that context, I guess it’s easy to fathom STAT raining on everyone’s parade. The fact that it took a couple of years for his understanding of his newfound religion to take full, glowering flower explains the wacky bearded good timer-y of the recent past.

Oh, and after a fairly successful run with the two-PG look (whodathunkit!), because Chicago is ‘big’, Son of Wood will also go ‘big’ with this starting quintet:

247 comments on “2013-14 Game Thread: Knicks v. Bulls”

I think it’s just ridiculous that Woodson is starting Bargs. Why not Metta? Bargs will almost have the opposite effect of “going big” against the Bulls because he is the softest 7 footer in the league.

May the pagan gods of hamstrings not exact vengeance on RayRay tonite. Seriously, this is one of those games where coming through it healthy is a win. Even if we only lose 20 games this year, you would tend to pencil this in as one of them. W or L and injuries aside, my hope is that:

Chandler outplays Noah (he’s been smoked by him several times in recent meetings)
Shump has an all-star performance on the big stage
Bargnani doesn’t suck (15 and 5 with a couple of 3’s would be OK by me)
Amare scores at will for 20 minutes
TH2 nails some big 3’s
We compete for 4 quarters

Does anyone out there actually think that we could max out Melo and still build a winning team? Because for the last couple of months I’ve been pretty stuck on the thought that if he’s not going to take a pay cut to stay that we should probably let him go, but I hate not keeping an open mind.

Well, one of the major things we were worried about this season was that they would not protect the ball nearly as well as they did last year (when they were one of the best all-time). And so far…well…you know.

On Bargs’ offensive fouls… the first illegal screen was a first week of the season call. The second was on Felton for going before he was set. The elbow was legit (and the refs called the same foul on Gibson). There’s plenty to complain about with Bargs’ offense, but those screen calls were no big deal.

3/10 Knicks with more points than shots, which is not super dope. Bargnani is unsurprisingly the worst player on the floor whenever he’s out there. I’d like to see us try some Beno in the second half instead of Hardaway. On the plus side, Carmelo’s passing looks much better this year than last. And Tyson looks like 2011 Tyson on defense. Is Aldrich even available tonight? I’m already sick of Bargs, and it’s only game 2.

I like the options that Bargnani gives us in attack. Still horrified by the turnovers, but i think he’ll do less along the season. And he hasn’t been that bad on defense, even if he is no Chandler, he was there contesting shots.

OTOH, Amare has not looked good. Perhaps in an ultra-defensive lineup with him providing scoring, but he still hasnt a defined role and looks lost.

Bargnani was actually doing okay defending Boozer, then Stat came in and Boozer turned into prime Karl Malone. Stat looks worse than Bargs right now, but Stat is a very rhythm-dependent player, so I wouldn’t be surprised to see Stat get in a groove and deliver some production at some point.

Melo getting post happy but it did lead to a 3pt attempt by Felton which he was clearly fouled on but no called. I think a little Felton/Tyson PnR would be nice with Shump, Melo, and Hardaway spacing the floor would be nice.

Out of the Time out I see the little 3man weave or the triple pick coming.

Oh well. Knicks almost stole that game. Derrick Rose made the most important shot of the game. ‘Melo got an open look from 3. It rimmed out. Chandler could not tip it in.

Lots of positives to take from this game. Most importantly, Chandler/Melo plus three guards is the Knicks best line up. Felton/Shumpert/Hardaway/Smith/Prigioni will compete for those crunch time minutes.

The Knicks are going to have to figure out what to do when Chandler (and to lesser extent Felton) are off of the floor. No surprise that there’s no bench cohesion yet but they’re going to need to develop some or else the starters are going to get worn out.

I guess Im the only one who doesnt believe in stupid moral victories lol.

Moral victories are fine when you’re not a good team. I don’t get them when the Knicks are supposed to be as good as the Bulls.

I mean, I totally get feeling worse about some losses more than others, but come on, these guys are supposed to be competing for their division and one of the top seeds in the conference, they shouldn’t need moral victories.

I hear what you guys are saying about Melo’s shot, it wasn’t awful, but there were almost 6 seconds left in the game. It just seems to me that there’s enough time to execute an actual play, maybe a high screen or something going to the basket.

The Knicks look like they’ve traveled back in time to 11/12. Excellent defense, suspect offense. I think they’ll get the offense figured out as long as Melo’s poor shooting is just a blip rather than lingering injury issues.

The Knicks look like they’ve traveled back in time to 11/12. Excellent defense, suspect offense. I think they’ll get the offense figured out as long as Melo’s poor shooting is just a blip rather than lingering injury issues.

I completely agree. Its weird with Melo its like on some shots his great form just goes away. I dont get it

It’s not a moral victory. But they showed some positive signs. The defense has been excellent in both games. Tyson looks great. Bargnani had a short run of exactly what we are looking for in the 2nd half. The best lineup is already obvious so it will be hard for Woody to eff that up. THJ is an asset. And Melo hasn’t played well and JR hasn’t played. And by the way the Bulls D has something to do w our bad O. I mean several people who aren’t idiots are picking them to win it.

Dred, there are no high percentage plays with 5 seconds left. If you try to execute something and you’re off by a hair, it’s a desperation heave. It’s hard to not get confrontational about something like that.

I am angry cause it was a game they let slip away. The Bulls right now with a still rusty Rose are vulnerable, they wont be this bad in the future. Hopefully the Knicks will be better too obviously but beating the Bulls for them is hard regardless. They are now 1-9 vs them since trading for Melo (1-8 when he has played).

We know how competitive the Top 5 in the East will be, losing games like tonight sucks especially when they were 6 secs away from winning. Playing as bad as they did offensively down the stretch makes it more frustrating. Hopefully they take care of business the next 3 games (home vs Wolves, home and away vs Bobcats) then JR returns and the schedule gets difficult for the rest of November.

Dred, there are no high percentage plays with 5 seconds left. If you try to execute something and you’re off by a hair, it’s a desperation heave. It’s hard to not get confrontational about something like that.

yea ppl overreacting over the shot are wrong imo. Theres only so much you can do. It was a clean look and Melo is paid the big dollars to hit that shot.

My big hope for the Knicks this season was that they’d be an improved defensive team, with Chandler returning to form, Shump staying healthy for a full season, Pablo doing his pesky thing and MWP bringing his physical defensive game to the party.

So far, so good. The offense is probably not gonna be what it was last season, but I’d rather watch a team with good offense/good defense than a team with great offense/mediocre defense.

I didn’t have a problem with the final shot. Clean enough look Some of Melo’s shots before it didn’t exactly fit the bill, especially that backcorner fadeaway. Melo played a decent game. Quick hands and filled the boxscore despite the missed shots.

Still, angry about that Noah no call but that never gets called I guess. Frustrating because that putback was there..

There are no moral victories but they showed me a lot today. Now imagine what they could be when they don’t have to play Melo/Stat/Bargs at the same time?
I’m ok with the knicks not bursting out of the gate provided they learn from these experiences and Woody stop giving Bargs so many minutes as the season progresses. If Woody can find a way for the Knicks to tread water without Tyson on the floor, the Knicks will overachieve. Preserving an effective Tyson while still playing winning basketball will be the knicks’ biggest challenge.

My big hope for the Knicks this season was that they’d be an improved defensive team, with Chandler returning to form, Shump staying healthy for a full season, Pablo doing his pesky thing and MWP bringing his physical defensive game to the party.

Chandler coming back to form is a really great development.

I really wonder how long Woody will take to realize Bargnani t the 5 with Melo or STAT at the 4 is just not going work.

The Knicks late game playcalling is always puzzling. I can stomach the isolation on the last shot but I really wish a screen would have been set for him. On the possession prior to that I like running the pick and roll but Melo should have been the guy with the ball running his man off the Chandler screens, and when Melo had Noah on him the previous possession he should not have tried to take him one on one from the three point arc because that’s not the mismatch it is with other centers. Noah has proven over and over again that he is more than capable of sticking with the best wing scorers for short stretches when the Bulls really need it.

And Bargnani is the worst thing to happen to the Knicks in a long time. That might sound like hyperbole but I’ve seen more of Bargnani than most Raptors fans even have and I can say with confidence that he is among the worst help defenders I’ve ever seen and even when he is hitting shots his offensive game doesn’t help enough to make up for it. He sets terrible screens, has no idea where he should be on offense a lot of the time(spots up inside the arc way too often) and has no idea where his teammates are when he starts making his move. We’re going to see a lot of games like tonight, where Bargnani is -9 in a close loss.

Bargnani is also incredibly clumsy with the ball in his hands. Shaky handle and fumbles his passes. That third quarter was painful to watch. I was just thinking to myself [well at least Tyson is getting rest…well at least Tyson is getting rest]

And Bargnani is the worst thing to happen to the Knicks in a long time.

Impossible. Bargnani basically took Novak’s spot. He cost Novak, a mid-First Round pick in 2016 and a couple of conditional second round picks. His money comes from the Dolans, and does not clog the cap in any year that the Knicks might have had flexibility.

@Ephus – A lot of the things you mention happened when the team was mired in mediocrity. Adding Bargnani is the kind of move that can take a team from being a borderline contender back to mediocrity, to me that’s much worse.

Novak would be better for the Knicks. He’s actually better defensively and he has an elite level offensive skill even if he doesn’t have much outside of that.

I really wonder how long Woody will take to realize Bargnani t the 5 with Melo or STAT at the 4 is just not going work.”

I feel like Woodson knows already but is just trying to make the delusional realize how terrible he really is. I can’t believe the number of times I’ve heard “I’m actually in the minority. Bargnani is a really good pick up for the knicks.” The only thing Bargnani is worth is 6 fouls and rest for Tyson. Even Jason Collins would be a better option

duckshoe, Melo beat Noah to the help and had a wide open Chandler under the basket. That was the right play, just the end was poorly executed.

Well Chandler was only open because everyone(including Chandler) was getting ready to rebound once Melo went up for the shot. I don’t think we can say Chandler was open because the Knicks ran the right play.

Situational set plays is one of Woodson’s strengths, the Knicks should have a few go to plays that they run in situations like that.

That wasn’t any play at all. It was a failure by the Bulls to match-up in transition, which Melo recognized and wisely took advantage of.
A guard had Chandler inside and for most centers in the NBA it’s a post-up without a big in the paint.
Chandler was incredible tonight. He’s off to a super start. But he assumed when Melo drove the shot was going up, even as his man left him to seal off the drive.

Sure he is. Bargnani can body up big men well enough but he’s so much worse at everything else. Novak is by no means a good defender, but I don’t think Knicks fans quite grasp how bad Bargnani is yet. Novak can actually follow a defensive scheme and rotate somewhat effectively, Bargnani has zero clue what to do. Did you see Chandler actually maneuvering Bargnani around on defense tonight because he didn’t know where to be? That’s not because he’s new and doesn’t understand yet, you could see that throughout his career in Toronto.

Going off a rough estimate I’ve probably seen 80% of the games Bargnani has played in the NBA to date(I live an hour from Toronto and have lived with a Raptors fan for almost 6 years) so I’m a lot more familiar with him than most are. I don’t know if I’ve ever seen a worse help defender in my life. David Lee laughs at his defensive awareness.

The debate surrounding Bargnani among Knicks fans is interesting to me because the same conversation was happening amongst Raptors fans from around 2008-2011 with a pretty fair split between “he’s not THAT bad/he has SOME skills” and “he is almost entirely useless” which ended with almost all of them thinking something really close to the latter. I have a feeling this one isn’t going to take as long to get to that point, Knicks fans tend to have higher standards.

@xduckshoex To your point, Novak was usually able to guard the opposing team’s worst offensive player without much cost to the rest of the team. It’s why Synergy statistically ranked him so high as a defensive player despite all that was obvious to the naked eye. When Bargnani is playing 4 or 5, there’s no way you can get away with that without easy buckets. Novak usually guarded bad perimeter players and let them either hit open jumpshots or usually got help. A defensive nothing of a big is far more costly to a team.

Also, Novak is a better offensive player for the time he spends on a court. He’s not going to take bad shots and he’ll keep the ball moving if the shot isn’t there.

Trading for Bargnani should not have the type of negative impact it could have as long as Woodson doesnt play him. There really is no need to force feed Bargs playing time. I could care less if trading for him was a waste of a roster spot. Plant his ass on the bench if he sucks period. No need to have to justify the trade.

Bargs has 3 rebs in 42 mins this season. He should not be guaranteed playing time, just like Udrih isnt and KMart and Stat arent (although for physical reasons). I dont mind having him on the roster, he got hot in the 3rd quarter and Im sure he will have a bunch of hot shooting stretches like that. But to me he should be given minutes sporadically and when he has earned them not given minutes so he can find his game or whatever like Woodson was saying after last night when he said he has to give him more minutes to help him find his game.

This team has more than enough depth and currently is healthy enough that force feeding Bargs minutes could cost them games early during the season. He will definitely get playing time because of injuries to Chandler/Stat/KMart so again I dont think he should be gettting DNPs the rest of the season. But right now with the entire front court healthy he shouldnt be getting that much playing time IMO.

Bargs has 3 rebs in 42 mins this season. He should not be guaranteed playing time, just like Udrih isnt and KMart and Stat arent (although for physical reasons). I dont mind having him on the roster, he got hot in the 3rd quarter and Im sure he will have a bunch of hot shooting stretches like that. But to me he should be given minutes sporadically and when he has earned them not given minutes so he can find his game or whatever like Woodson was saying after last night when he said he has to give him more minutes to help him find his game.

This team has more than enough depth and currently is healthy enough that force feeding Bargs minutes could cost them games early during the season. He will definitely get playing time because of injuries to Chandler/Stat/KMart so again I dont think he should be gettting DNPs the rest of the season. But right now with the entire front court healthy he shouldnt be getting that much playing time IMO.

You know you and I are simpatico on this point. If he can help the team, great, let him show he can help the team. Guaranteeing him minutes on such a deep team seems foolish to me.

Guaranteeing Bargnani minutes is indeed foolish, but I don’t think the Knicks sent a pick for him, paid his trade kicker and agreed to pay him $10 million a season to have him sit the bench. It’s long been suspected that Bargnani’s playing time in Toronto was at the behest of management, I wouldn’t be surprised if something similar happened here.