If this is your first visit, be sure to
check out the FAQ by clicking the
link above. You may have to register
before you can post: click the register link above to proceed.
To start viewing messages,
select the forum that you want to visit from the selection below.

Lost your password? Questions? Email admin @ theologyweb.com

TWeb had an OS update go bad and had to be restored to a previous state. We've lost two days worth of posts so you all get a do-over.

It not so much as the Eruv - it is about what's being brought within the perimeter that the Jewish people have to be careful. By creating a boundary around an area that has many Jewish residents legally creating a community. Like a Wall - Read Nehemiah.

Hmmm? The topic being the Eruv and how the Jewish people were not permitted to travel outside of the boundaries (within the perimeters, if necessary) on the Shabbath.

An eruv; Hebrew: עירוב‎, "mixture", also transliterated as eiruv or erub, plural: eruvin is a ritual enclosure that some Jewish communities, and especially Orthodox Jewish communities, constructed in their neighborhoods as a way to permit Jewish residents or visitors to carry certain objects outside their own homes on Sabbath and Yom Kippur. An eruv accomplishes this by integrating a number of private and public properties into one larger private domain, thereby avoiding restrictions on carrying objects from the private to the public domain on Sabbath and holidays.

In the book of Nehemiah - deals with this subject, the prophet stated, "Let every one with his servant lodge within Jerusalem". The Eruv - is set up in the same way, when describing the perimeter. Also, and in Nehemiah 10 the people made a solemn covenant to God that they would not do three things: have ungodly romantic relationships (10:30), buy and sell on the Sabbath (10:31), and support the work of God with money as He commanded (10:32-39). In addition, the people were bringing in grain and loading it on donkeys, together with wine, grapes, figs and all other kinds of loads. And they were bringing all this into Jerusalem on the Sabbath.

In addition: and with this thought about the Eruv,

The law states - Halacha, Halakha, The spirit of the law also forbids the transfer of ownership, even inside a building. The Sanhedrin legislated a prohibition against all forms of buying, selling, trading and other commerce for a variety of reasons. The Sabbath must be a day when all business stops. (Note 7)

It is interesting to note that the prohibition against commerce is one of the few types of legislation actually recorded in the Bible. Thus, we find (Nechemiah 10:32), “If the (non-Jewish) natives of the land bring any goods or food to sell on the Sabbath day, we will buy nothing from them on the Sabbath or on any holy day.” (Note 8)

In thought - Sparko, the idea was that "anything" (meaning goods to sell or to trade) that were brought into the city (eruv - is in the same respect, as within the city walls of Jerusalem) was (and under Nehemiah) forbidden - it was considered under "burdening" the congregation in a sense. Under law, and dealing with the parameters of Tircha D'Tzibbur, it could constitute as burdening the congregation or disrupting "that rest" on the Shabbath. It was forbidden to do business on that day whether it was within the city or outside of the city. However, the prophet "slept" outside the perimeter of the city to prevent anything from "burdening" the community. Hopefully, I am not in error on this subject -

Given that the concept of tircha de-tzibura is based on the obligation to respect and honor the congregation—an assumption that emerges from the above Gemara, as well as from other sources in Chazal (see, for instance, Sotah 39b)—does this imply a Torah obligation or a rabbinic enactment?

The basic halachah of affording the congregation due honor appears to be a Torah obligation. Concerning the honor we must afford to other individuals, the Torah instructs us to “Love your fellow as yourself” (Vayikra 19:17). Giving others due honor, as one would desire for oneself, is part of “loving one’s fellow as oneself,” which is clearly a Torah mitzvah (as ruled by the Rambam, De’os 6:3). The honor of a community or congregation is certainly no less weighty than the honor of individuals, and if a Torah mitzvah obligates us to honor our fellow individuals, we can assume that the same mitzvah applies to honoring the public

The Eruv and in relationship with this passage out of Nehemiah "centers" on the understanding on the boundary lines during Shabbath- it means that the doors shut and that "nothing" can or will disturb "the rest" of the Shabbath, -

19 It came about that just as it grew dark at the gates of Jerusalem before the Sabbath, I commanded that the doors should be shut and that they should not open them until after the Sabbath. Then I stationed some of my servants at the gates so that no load would enter on the Sabbath day. 20 Once or twice the traders and merchants of every kind of merchandise spent the night outside Jerusalem.…

The Shabbath and the "idea" of the relationship during that time becomes "united" - close to God. It is taking "one" day out of the week and centering oneself on God. Everything has to come to a stop - or has to come to a rest. Nehemiah had "closed" the gates to the city as to "not" burden the people on the Shabbath. Nehemiah (also) made this point about the Shabbath - their ancestors did the same thing and brought the wrath of God down on the city. If you read John 2 - Jesus was angry enough to get out the whip! As the verse states, "So he made a whip out of cords, and drove all from the temple courts, both sheep and cattle; he scattered the coins of the money changers and overturned their tables. 16 To those who sold doves he said, “Get these out of here! Stop turning my Father’s house into a market!” 17 His disciples remembered that it is written: “Zeal for your house will consume me.”

The confusion is what was the purpose of the Eruv, what is it suppose to prevent? The carrying of object from public to a private domain? My point is that I think it's more than that? Basing my opinion on the book of Nehemiah. Nehemiah instituted reforms that strengthened their future observance. Nehemiah had "guarded" the people from desecrating the Shabbath but why (in Jesus's time) didn't the Rabbi's cleanse out the temple themselves?

I don't believe that you can "fence" around the laws of Shabbath but you can attend to everyday "necessities" of living and transportation during those times, and as the people have done - set up parameters.

Note: Fences may be used as part of the boundary without modification; however, if the ground is eroded beneath the fence to any significant degree, the space must be filled in. Lastly, all the areas to be enclosed must be "residential areas," or areas suitable for residential areas. It is not permitted to include cemeteries or bodies of water (such as lakes, streams, and ponds). Such areas must be excluded from the Eruv by enclosing them (either by not including them in the Eruv area, or by encircling them within the Eruv).

An Eruv is generally designed by encircling a community with a continuous string or wire. There are numerous regulations concerning the placement of this wire. Those who live in and use an Eruv have an obligation to ensure that the Eruv is intact before taking advantage of its presence. Usually, there is a group that maintains the Eruv that provides such information, and conducts weekly inspections.

The purpose is stated in the message, "He was told that this was the place where God would "dwell" among his people" - creating a place for uniting the Jewish people with God! No matter where you're located or live, you can always "create" a place (even within your own home) as a designated place where you can rest and be with God.

But Nehemiah did more than rebuild a wall, as we will learn. This book is also the story of the restoring of a people from ruin and despair to a new walk with God. Jerusalem is not only an historic city which has for centuries been the center of the life of the nation of Israel (and, in fact, the center of the biblical record), it is also a symbolic city. Jerusalem is also used in a pictorial sense throughout the Scriptures. What it pictures is the place where God desires to dwell. When the city was first designated to King David as the place where God wanted him to build the temple, he was told that this was the place where God would dwell among his people.

In thought - Sparko, the idea was that "anything" (meaning goods to sell or to trade) that were brought into the city (eruv - is in the same respect, as within the city walls of Jerusalem) was (and under Nehemiah) forbidden - it was considered under "burdening" the congregation in a sense. Under law, and dealing with the parameters of Tircha D'Tzibbur, it could constitute as burdening the congregation or disrupting "that rest" on the Shabbath. It was forbidden to do business on that day whether it was within the city or outside of the city. However, the prophet "slept" outside the perimeter of the city to prevent anything from "burdening" the community. Hopefully, I am not in error on this subject:
Jeremiah and the Prohibition of Carrying

Jeremiah 17:19–27 condemns mercantile pursuits that involve carrying a “load” or “burden (משא)” through the gates of Jerusalem—but the passage does not define what qualifies as a “burden.”[5] Moreover, although in context Jeremiah is condemning business practices, which he illustrates with the imagery of people carrying bundles of their wares out to the marketplace, later readers of this passage saw especially in verses 21–22 a more general proscription against carrying, and thus used it to form a more general prescriptive Sabbath law.

The Thirty-Nine Categories of Sabbath Work - Carrying is only "one" area that is prohibited:

nswer: The Mishna [Shabbat 7:2] lists the major categories of work that are prohibited on Shabbat: The primary forms of work are forty less one, … carrying out from one domain to another. Thus carrying is one of the main archetypal forms of labour on Shabbat.

The Halacha divides the world into four different kinds of areas, known as domains; a public domain, a private domain, a Carmelit and an exempt place. It is forbidden to carry from a private domain into a public domain or Carmelit (or vice versa). There are rules about carrying within each of these domains.

A private domain is an area that is enclosed by walls with only a minimal number of gaps for windows and doors. Carrying is permitted in a private domain. A public domain is a large public area where 600,000 people pass through each day. There is much debate as to how this is calculated, but only the most densely populated cities qualify as a public domain. It is forbidden to carry for a distance of more than four Amot (roughly two meters) in a public domain. A Carmelit is between public and private – it does not have walls so it does not count as being private and it does not have enough people in it to be considered public. The Rabbis have decreed that a Carmelit is to be treated as a public place and therefore carrying is forbidden within it. A Carmelit may be transformed into a private domain by surrounding it with walls and this is called an Eruv.. Once the Carmelit has been enclosed, carrying within it is permitted. An exempt place is so small that it does not qualify as being a space at all. Cycling on Shabbat (II) – Carrying

*********************

The subject - as a whole, is the word "burden" - as scripture states, "Guard yourselves for your own sake against carrying burdens on the Sabbath day". Again, the idea of carrying is listed as labor - and then, as noted: carrying a “load” or “burden (משא)” through the gates of Jerusalem—but the passage does not define what qualifies as a “burden.” Burden can constitute something that is a duty, obligation, or responsibility - as in the New Testament, it states, in Matthew 11:28, "Come to me, all you who are weary and burdened, and I will give you rest. And viewing this same line out of Matthew, "Cast your burden upon Hashem and He will sustain you."

There's a beautiful sentiment about this

The implication of this verse is that when one is confronted with a problem, not only can he feel secure that Hashem will help him deal with and overcome it, but he can take that problem and, so to speak, "throw it upon Hashem" - He can "cast". He can relieve himself from the worry and anxiety caused by it by "CASTING IT UPON HASHEM" so that he can feel that it has now become Hashem's burden and not his problem any longer. "BEHOLD, I WILL TRUST IN G-D, my SAVIOR, and WILL NOT FEAR, etc..." Reflections of the Heart

Many things constitute "Carrying" - but again, the thought is "CASTING" those burdens - loads/work "AWAY" for one day and centering on God.

Sparko, I don't mean to be confusing, however, some categories of prohibitions on Shabbat might have a double meaning to them - or a larger meaning. Even according to Jeremiah and Nehemiah, I believe, was they were centralizing "Shabbath" regulations. So it's my bad

nope still not getting your point. I never asked about the history of the subject. I was pointing out the legalistic and ridiculous idea in the first place and how the whole thing is nothing but a "cheat" in the first place.

Lol... I guess it depends on what one is looking for. The info I had been looking at was way over my head in terms of explaining their mindset. I believe Marta was able to help me out. Doesn't mean I understand it ALL... I just got a clue into seeing where they're coming from.

It strikes me as "cheating" - If they truly believe in the sabbath and the rules, they would not try to invent "loop holes" to not actually observe it. They are trying to cheat by artificially calling an entire city their "private home" - which it clearly is not.

The whole restrictions on working and carrying on the sabbath have gotten way to extreme in the first place, to not even being able to work a light switch on the sabbath or push an elevator button. It is as bad as the Pharisees in the bible were with creating too many rules and restrictions. But now, to get around their own self imposed restrictions, they create new loop holes to let them cheat. God is probably up there shaking his head in amusement at their antics.

Well, the basic prohibition is against working on the sabbath. Since "work" isn't explicitly designed, the intent of the extra laws is to make sure one doesn't accidentally violate the main prohibition. The scribes got a little carried away with that, IMO. It seems to me that the intent of the "sabbath day's journey" was to limit not so much how far one could go, but where one could go (i.e., the tabernacle). Given that driving takes rather less energy than walking, and that going to worship at synagogue would seem to be something which God would encourage, it seems faintly ridiculous to me that, e.g., driving 45 minutes to synagogue (or even bringing a dish of food along) would violate anything.

Enter the Church and wash away your sins. For here there is a hospital and not a court of law. Do not be ashamed to enter the Church; be ashamed when you sin, but not when you repent. – St. John Chrysostom