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Re: Pacers Wizards Post Game Thread: LANCE! LANCE! lance.

Are you implying that he needed be told he was a 3 shy? Lol Lance knew exactly what he needed for a triple double.

I think the idea wasn't to inform Lance of his stat line... It was just saying to call a time out and set something up for Lance and let him know this was a structured chance to get his triple double, the team and coaches are behind him to do it, but then he was going to pull him because the game was won and we didn't need him getting hurt or make it look like they were disrespecting the other team/game in the process.

Also, I don't necessarily have a problem with a player checking his stats in game. The problem comes when he and he alone decides to try and pad them versus just playing the game. IOW, if an assist presents itself in the flow of the game and the player makes it and wants to sneak a peek at his stat to see what he'd accomplished so far...fine.

Lance was forcing the issue at the end for points, but I got the feeling that his teammates wanted him to go for those 5 points to complete the milestone. The game otherwise was decided. So I didn't get the impression his teammates had a problem with what he was doing. No different than when a bench guy comes in to mop up at the end of the game and the guys try to get him a basket and want him to shoot.

Nuntius was right. I was wrong. Frank Vogel has retained his job.

------

"A player who makes a team great is more valuable than a great player. Losing yourself in the group, for the good of the group, that’s teamwork."

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Re: Pacers Wizards Post Game Thread: LANCE! LANCE! lance.

The team was really good at times last night, Lance had a few highlights, but why everyone is creaming over a guy who had 10 ast and 8 turnover, that is 1 more turnover then the rest of the team combined, is beyond me.
I understand he is talented, but his facial expressions on the bench when Vogel pulled him were not what i like to see, i have seen Artest, I have seen Tinsley

as for his value, as long as he shows the boneheaded Lance so often (and yes i know only half a game at a time, which is still half a game to much) his value is nowhere near what you all think, at least not for the Pacers.

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Re: Pacers Wizards Post Game Thread: LANCE! LANCE! lance.

I hope that Bad Lance does drive the overall Lance pricetag down. The cheaper his next contract is, assuming we're the ones giving it to him, the better, both for our team salary and hopefully in regards to any potential ego or behavioral issues. I don't necessarily think there's going to be a problem, but it's true I'm mild-moderately concerned about it at times.

Re: Pacers Wizards Post Game Thread: LANCE! LANCE! lance.

Yeah, you're right. I'm still a bit nervous about what might change when we give him a big, long term contract this summer. Or if someone makes him an offer he can't refuse to leave Indiana, God help that franchise if they don't have the support structure in place, the winning culture in place, that this team does. If some bad franchise pays him to be 'the man' for them (like, say, Charlotte or something)... ouch. I'm not sure that will work out well in the long run.

He really does scare me. Hibbert and George are fixtures. So is George Hill. If Lance matures and meets potential, we could possibly have a little Spurs dynasty here. But if he creates problems, we will take a step back. Lance really is the X Factor for this team. We could trade him for another player, but I doubt we get the same talent in return...and I think we need that talent to get over the hump. I suppose with any big reward comes a load of risk.

Re: Pacers Wizards Post Game Thread: LANCE! LANCE! lance.

I hope that Bad Lance does drive the overall Lance pricetag down. The cheaper his next contract is, assuming we're the ones giving it to him, the better, both for our team salary and hopefully in regards to any potential ego or behavioral issues. I don't necessarily think there's going to be a problem, but it's true I'm mild-moderately concerned about it at times.

Look the thing about Lance is he is entertaining. Even when he is playing bad he is a must see player. The goal of some teams is to draw revenue and make money. Lance is the type of player that people want to see and will pay to see. I believe he will get paid by a really bad team a lot of money. I mean in a market where OJ Mayo gets 8m per year and guys like Marcus Thortan get the same. A guy like Lance who can do what those players do and then much more(defend and pass ). I find it hard to imagine he wont get a hefty pay day. Many GMs will think in a bigger role he will do even more. IMO Lance is a poor mans Iggy who is only 22 who could blossom into an all star caliber player in time. IMO that makes him super attractive on the FA market. He keeps getting better every month I mean he may become our 2nd option offensively before the end of the season. He West and PG24 are the best creators on the team. Best case scenario for us is he only gets like 8m a year he is on the cusp IMO of pricing himself out of our range. He deserves it though I hope he keeps it up and gets a big contract(hopefully with us somehow) As a person who bought a Lance jersey the moment they were in stock and a huge supporter of his when many though he shouldn't be in the league I am happy he has shown people can change. He has always been one of my favorite players to watch going back to his HS days. I hope he spends his whole career in a Pacer uni but I feel that may be easier said than done with how much $$ we have on the books.

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Re: Pacers Wizards Post Game Thread: LANCE! LANCE! lance.

The only thing that helps us is that alot of those teams that could afford him are really bad right now and might not want to sign somebody for that much who might hamper the development of their draft picks.

Re: Pacers Wizards Post Game Thread: LANCE! LANCE! lance.

The only thing that helps us is that alot of those teams that could afford him are really bad right now and might not want to sign somebody for that much who might hamper the development of their draft picks.

Is that a real worry? Dear lord that would be the last of my concerns. (unless we are talking about poor fits Like Lance playing with MCW wouldnt be ideal they play a lot a like, although I bet it would work out)

Lance will be the same age as Brandon Roy when Brandon Roy was a rookie(when he becomes a FA). I don't see how you can call a 23 year old (the age of some draft players stunting growth of rookie teammates). Lance would be brought in to play with rookies and make them better.

You need talent in this league to win, most rebuilding teams would be smart to get a young guy like Lance. It would be like adding another top #10 pick who is NBA ready to the team. But I hope you are right and teams shy away from Lance because he will hurt other development . I am in the complete oppoiste view I believe Lance improves the players around him so he would help other get better quicker.

Re: Pacers Wizards Post Game Thread: LANCE! LANCE! lance.

Is that a real worry? Dear lord that would be the last of my concerns. (unless we are talking about poor fits Like Lance playing with MCW wouldnt be ideal they play a lot a like, although I bet it would work out)

Lance will be the same age as Brandon Roy when Brandon Roy was a rookie(when he becomes a FA). I don't see how you can call a 23 year old (the age of some draft players stunting growth of rookie teammates). Lance would be brought in to play with rookies and make them better.

You need talent in this league to win, most rebuilding teams would be smart to get a young guy like Lance. It would be like adding another top #10 pick who is NBA ready to the team. But I hope you are right and teams shy away from Lance because he will hurt other development . I am in the complete oppoiste view I believe Lance improves the players around him so he would help other get better quicker.

Its hard to take you serious when you seem incapable of making your point without using emoticons.

But no teams don't want Lance coming in and acting like he did in the 4th quarter last night if they have Wiggins, Parker or any of the other amazing freshmen. Those guys are likely to be the "guys" for better or worse on their teams next year.

Much in the same way Bird wanted George played in the JOB years and in fact was one of the reasons we canned him. You don't stunt the development of a young star to keep veterans happy. You take your lumps playing the rookie so they can grow and improve.

Re: Pacers Wizards Post Game Thread: LANCE! LANCE! lance.

Anyway I thought Vogel made the rigth move, Lance got a ton of love too

Bad Lance doesn't exist as much. But I still see uninterested Lance way tooo much on defense. Sadly in the NBA defense is undervalued so thats probably not going to keep the bidding for him down at all.

Re: Pacers Wizards Post Game Thread: LANCE! LANCE! lance.

If Lance really gets too good to let go, you make some trades. Perhaps you have to deal George Hill or DWest. I don't know. But if he's really your #2 guy, you don't let him go. You go with Scola or CJ Watson as the starter...and deal West or Hill for an expiring. Yes, that sounds terrible. But again if Lance is playing like the second coming you really need to do that.

Edit: we are not there yet. GHill and West are staying unless Lance starts playing like LeBron lite.

Re: Pacers Wizards Post Game Thread: LANCE! LANCE! lance.

The team was really good at times last night, Lance had a few highlights, but why everyone is creaming over a guy who had 10 ast and 8 turnover, that is 1 more turnover then the rest of the team combined, is beyond me.
I understand he is talented, but his facial expressions on the bench when Vogel pulled him were not what i like to see, i have seen Artest, I have seen Tinsley

as for his value, as long as he shows the boneheaded Lance so often (and yes i know only half a game at a time, which is still half a game to much) his value is nowhere near what you all think, at least not for the Pacers.

He's averaging 2.8 turnovers per game, which is the exact same as Paul George. But he is also the team leader in assists (5.2 APG). The next highest is Hill (3.7 APG). He's adjusted extremely well to his drastically increased ball handling duties and has a talent for setting up his teammates which is unmatched by anyone else on the roster. Any way you slice it, there's no getting around the fact that Lance is one of the main reasons that the team is 15-1.

Yes, the 8 turnovers were too many. But a few of them came at the end of the game when the game was long decided and he was trying to force the triple double. It's not like he would have been forcing that stuff in a tied game against the Heat. Lance is a player who has learned his boundaries and understands when he needs to play disciplined. This is a player who recently got a triple double while recording only one turnover.

So he had a bad facial expression on the bench when he was pulled. I guess he can join virtually every other player in NBA history who has been ticked off at their coach at some point in the long season. He showed restraint and shook it off quickly, which shows maturity. He has done nothing to deserve being compared to the clowns of Artest and Tinsley, who were true team wreckers.

Re: Pacers Wizards Post Game Thread: LANCE! LANCE! lance.

So he had a bad facial expression on the bench when he was pulled. I guess he can join virtually every other player in NBA history who has been ticked off at their coach at some point in the long season. He showed restraint and shook it off quickly, which shows maturity. He has done nothing to deserve being compared to the clowns of Artest and Tinsley, who were true team wreckers.

I guess it didn't make it onto the tv, but he almost pulled the railing off of the stands near the Jeff Foster Memorial Stair-Stepper Plaque (at least there should be a plaque). I'm hoping he was frustrated with himself for not taking advantage of the opportunities he had rather than peeved at Frank for giving him the hook.

Re: Pacers Wizards Post Game Thread: LANCE! LANCE! lance.

Lance is fun to watch when he is playing selfless ball. Entertaining, yes, but 8 turnovers? He did have 10 assists so he was +2 possessions and two buckets.

I'm not worried about keeping Lance because I'd bet the farm that if he continues this good/bad Lance style of ball they will trade him before the deadline for assets and not think twice about it.

I like watching Lance but I also think you have a couple of guys on the bench who can step in and perform without too much of a drop off in performance of the overall team.

I would be hesitant to conclude we wouldn't have a drop off. Clearly something is working with that 15-1 record.

IMO, Lance adds a dimension that this team lacks. He puts pressure on the other team because he can break down a defense either with a dribble drive or the pass. The opposition can be defending well overall, but he will cut into the lane and create chaos. Then he also has power and can bust through to the rack if they put a light weight on him...so they have to pay attention to him at all times. More attention than anyone on the team except Paul George. ...and no, there is no other wing on the bench who is close to as good. We are talking a huge drop off from Lance to OJ...and an even bigger one to Solomon Hill.

Re: Pacers Wizards Post Game Thread: LANCE! LANCE! lance.

I guess it didn't make it onto the tv, but he almost pulled the railing off of the stands near the Jeff Foster Memorial Stair-Stepper Plaque (at least there should be a plaque). I'm hoping he was frustrated with himself for not taking advantage of the opportunities he had rather than peeved at Frank for giving him the hook.

We've seen worse. Better the railing than a TV camera worth thousands of dollars. I just hope Lance settles down. For his own good and the team's good.

Re: Pacers Wizards Post Game Thread: LANCE! LANCE! lance.

Lance was forcing the issue at the end for points, but I got the feeling that his teammates wanted him to go for those 5 points to complete the milestone. The game otherwise was decided. So I didn't get the impression his teammates had a problem with what he was doing. No different than when a bench guy comes in to mop up at the end of the game and the guys try to get him a basket and want him to shoot.

I agree that the rest of the team wanted Lance to get his triple-double. They knew that Lance has done an excellent job at setting them up for 3 quarters and they knew that he deserved it.

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Re: Pacers Wizards Post Game Thread: LANCE! LANCE! lance.

IMHO...I am very sure that he has played himself into the $7 to 8 mil a year range...and likely still going up. His Market value maybe $7+ mil...but I guarantee you that some team will overpay him.

I believe that Lance is very grateful to Bird. At times, he has expressed as much. It's not like Lance can go out and sign an offer sheet with the comfort that we can match; he is unrestricted.

However Lance can obtain offers from other teams and then have a discussion with Bird. If the offers are too high for the Pacers to match without sacrificing players that put them at risk of not being contenders, then Bird will let Lance know. My thinking is that Bird will not sacrifice a key player to retain Lance and that in turn, Lance will not ask for so much that it would cost the Pacers a key player. Both of the two guys share something in common as a key goal. They both are extremely competitive and they both want a championship.

The Pacers can shed Copeland's salary without too much difficulty. The same would probably apply to SHill. If we had to trade Mahinmi for a less costly center, it could be done but might damage the defensive performance of the bench. If we sacrificed Scola to find money for Lance, then that would hurt significantly.

There are a few things that Bird can do to find additional funds without exceeding the luxury tax threshold, so Lance has to be both reasonable and careful what he asks for. He may put Bird in a position that provides a result that Lance may not like. Lance certainly has a right to seek as much as possible and his performance does seem to support that amount increasing, but more than likely a successful agreement that ends up with Lance in a Pacer uniform will require more yielding from Lance than it will from Bird. There is only so much Bird can do personnel-wise without losing a step or two to the other top contenders.

Re: Pacers Wizards Post Game Thread: LANCE! LANCE! lance.

I believe that Lance is very grateful to Bird. At times, he has expressed as much. It's not like Lance can go out and sign an offer sheet with the comfort that we can match; he is unrestricted.

However Lance can obtain offers from other teams and then have a discussion with Bird. If the offers are too high for the Pacers to match without sacrificing players that put them at risk of not being contenders, then Bird will let Lance know. My thinking is that Bird will not sacrifice a key player to retain Lance and that in turn, Lance will not ask for so much that it would cost the Pacers a key player. Both of the two guys share something in common as a key goal. They both are extremely competitive and they both want a championship.

The Pacers can shed Copeland's salary without too much difficulty. The same would probably apply to SHill. If we had to trade Mahinmi for a less costly center, it could be done but might damage the defensive performance of the bench. If we sacrificed Scola to find money for Lance, then that would hurt significantly.

There are a few things that Bird can do to find additional funds without exceeding the luxury tax threshold, so Lance has to be both reasonable and careful what he asks for. He may put Bird in a position that provides a result to Lance that he may not like. Lance certainly has a right to seek as much as possible and his performance does seem to support that amount increasing, but more than likely a successful agreement that ends up with Lance in a Pacer uniform will require more yielding from Lance than it will from Bird. There is only so much Bird can do personnel-wise without losing a step or two to the other top contenders.

I remember reading that while lance is unrestricted Pacers still hold his bird rights? Is this correct and what exactly does that mean?

Re: Pacers Wizards Post Game Thread: LANCE! LANCE! lance.

I don't really think Lance's reaction (which wasn't that bad, let's not go crazy) was about stats so much as just not getting to keep playing. We've all seen how much fun he has on the floor when things are going well which they obviously were. Yeah he was playing for stats, and maybe I'm rationalizing because he's a Pacer, but I kinda feel like he was doing it as a challenge, not glory or whatever.

Re: Pacers Wizards Post Game Thread: LANCE! LANCE! lance.

I remember reading that while lance is unrestricted Pacers still hold his bird rights? Is this correct and what exactly does that mean?

Bird Rights mean you don't need cap space to sign your own free agent, we could theoretically give Lance the max if we wanted. Him being unrestricted means any team w/ enough cap space can sign him and we don't have the right to match the contract, he signs w/ somebody else he's gone, unlike Roy and Portland. Though I do get the feeling his team'll gauge offers and then come to the Pacers with "OK, this is what's out there, get as close as possible." He wants to stay here.

But if he gets big money we can't compete with, bummer, but hey, good for you Lance.