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I know some groups practice chokes sometimes. I've done a little bit within formal aikido practice. It seems like an effective way to end an encounter and does not have to do any permanent damage to the attacker, so I don't see why they don't pop up more often.

I'm curious why there are so few choke techniques in aikido. Is it for philosophical reasons, practical reasons, or just a historical oddity?

The choke is a powerful tool and it can be done altogether safely. All our chokes in yoseikan came from judo or from jujutsu and modified by judo's standards of safe practice. We never actually choked one another unconscious but stopped when the chokee tapped out. But choking was a fair option at any time in randori, for any attack that presented the opening. As you can see Washizu Sensei perform these techniques, they can be applied very fast and smoothly for devastating overall effect.

Best.

David

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Conrad Gustafson wrote:

I know some groups practice chokes sometimes. I've done a little bit within formal aikido practice. It seems like an effective way to end an encounter and does not have to do any permanent damage to the attacker, so I don't see why they don't pop up more often.

I'm curious why there are so few choke techniques in aikido. Is it for philosophical reasons, practical reasons, or just a historical oddity?

Does anyone have any information or theories?

"That which has no substance can enter where there is no room."
Lao Tzu

I think Yoseikan does some of the "pass the weapon, step behind them" type things that are amicable to hadaka jime. (Ditto some FMA schools). And hey, it's never a bad idea to have a human shield, right?

Well, I don't want to get into a too long discussion on Feldenkrais, his work etc. I agree the cited clip is a little unrealistic. (I'm not sure how representative that clip is of Moshe's actual approach, though). However, it bears pointing out that Feldenkrais tested this kind of thing with live weapons, against resisting opponents, so there may be something of value to be mined from that book.

For a more modern take on chokes, grappling against weapons etc, I'd look to ISR Matrix. Unsurprisingly, you can kind of trace ISR back to judo (by way of BJJ / SBGi) too. I think Floro Fighting Systems *might* have some focus on limb tying / passing akin to a two-on-one, armdrag, step around to the back. You could argue that hakada jime is one possible finish from there (assuming you use the takedown hadaka per Feldenkrais cover).

Personally, I think the issue with choking some is that it's too slow. 5-10 seconds can be an eternity. But, as I said, opinions vary, and surely it's better to be behind the guy with the knife then in front of him.

Well, I don't want to get into a too long discussion on Feldenkrais, his work etc. I agree the cited clip is a little unrealistic. (I'm not sure how representative that clip is of Moshe's actual approach, though). However, it bears pointing out that Feldenkrais tested this kind of thing with live weapons, against resisting opponents, so there may be something of value to be mined from that book.

I'm already aware of Feldenkrais' genius. If I get the book I'll give my unworthy (never choked anyone in a battlefield) opinion, but some of the pics in the cover make me cringe.

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For a more modern take on chokes, grappling against weapons etc, I'd look to ISR Matrix. Unsurprisingly, you can kind of trace ISR back to judo (by way of BJJ / SBGi) too. think Floro Fighting Systems *might* have some focus on limb tying / passing akin to a two-on-one, armdrag, step around to the back. You could argue that hakada jime is one possible finish from there (assuming you use the takedown hadaka per Feldenkrais cover).

Don't know about Floro's work, but ISRM is, from what I've seen, a good system. And I'll add SBGI STAB is very good too, as Dog Bros DLO.

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Personally, I think the issue with choking some is that it's too slow. 5-10 seconds can be an eternity.

Not counting all the previous work to get there and establish control on the opponent who should be trying to fight back/escape/defend the choke.

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But, as I said, opinions vary, and surely it's better to be behind the guy with the knife then in front of him.

Sure, but as you have already noticed, usually Aikido chokes imply controlling uke's armed hand. Similar as you can see in Judo Kime no Kata when weapon has been drawn.

I would think, given aikido's roots, where you would pin an opponent and kill them, a choke would be looked at as taking too long?

A choke is not strangulation. Strangulation does not happen quickly; a choke incapacitates and renders unconscious very quickly. Speaking from personal experience, here.

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Geoff Byers wrote:

From what I know, things like the vascular neck restraint are incredibly safe. Judo has used them for decades with no reported deaths.

Those two sentences are not in agreement. Absence of reported death does not equal "incredibly safe". There are many activities with inherent deadly risk where, for a number of different interconnected reasons, actual deaths are rare or unknown. That does not make these activities safe.

What kind of trade offs do we want to make? Effective technique versus possible harm and death?

I think the word choke is inappropriate to Aikido. Why cut off the air, the windpipe? Neck holds would be a better concept, a version of close in iriminage would be just as effective. Learning to hold with a circle too. Lots of ways in Aikido without blocking or cutting off the windpipe.

I would say good practice in Aikido would be to try such positions as would be chokes and find what is more appropriate, less damaging and yet more effective. The way of Aikido no?

I think the word choke is inappropriate to Aikido. Why cut off the air, the windpipe? Neck holds would be a better concept, a version of close in iriminage would be just as effective. Learning to hold with a circle too. Lots of ways in Aikido without blocking or cutting off the windpipe.

Agreed that the term is misleading, but that's what the BJJ people call it.