The performance failings of the Champion window extend far beyond the air leakage comparison alone.

Yes, the leakage numbers on the EnviroStar are much better but I would not base decision on that factor alone.

Low-e 366 is not right for you application nor is that resultant low SHGC at 0.21.

Pocket sill...strike 2.

The EnviroStar is a much better looking window with a higher DP.

If you have about 12 windows, I would easily pay an additional $80 per unit for the EnviroStar over the Champion window.

What about the installation? If Champion is using a foam collar as their only seal....strike 3...maybe 4 at this point.

Have you vendor quote you the Okna 500 or 400. Both are still far better choices than the Champion and will be priced lower if that is one of the more heavily weighted criteria.

If price is a comparison tool...cancel your Renewal By Andersen quote right now and save yourself the time. Nothing special about that window either. They will trash vinyl windows all the while their window is 70% vinyl by make up. Ask them for an air infiltration number...they won't give it you...hint, hint...it probably isn't goo.

Actually I'm going to be getting a quote for the Okna 400 series I believe soon.

I'm actually only replacing the 5 windows on the top floor now, so not 12 windows. So right now the $1000 difference is $200 per window, not $80 ... just for clarification on that. You guys are altering my perception on Champion though ... the foam sealing isn't sounding as good anymore ... and I'll have to see if I can learn more about performance failings.

I'm a sucker for punishment, I'm going to keep all my appointments ... even though it may be painful ... I usually learn SOMETHING in each appointment ... whether I later learn it's a frivolous or relevant lesson ... at least I'm learning. Good to know what to prepare for on the Anderson appointment, thanks ... I'll fortify myself.

OK, saw a local family business guy today so far. He was very good ... didn't come off like a polished salesman because he actually does the work!

His product was Alside. Now I know this board isn't a big fan of Alside, but he DID know that the Environviews were an Excalibur rebrand! He said he never liked it when Alside brought for the Excalibur but stands by his product.

This is the 8000 series of Alside, does that make a difference to anyone? It has a sloping sill, the weatherstripping incorporates a bulb seal on the bottom and where the sashes connect. He says this is a better product by Alside than the Ultramaxx and the Sheffield, though he likes those brands (though not the Excalibur).It has a .1 AI (DH) .3 u-factor (just makes the grade there) .28 SHGC

The quote was for a nice price and he gets rave reviews on Angie's list in this area.

Does the brand of Alside make a difference with you guys ... or is all of Alside looked unfavorably upon here?

OK, so I got the Andersen spiel ... and one thing kind of alarmed me. He mentioned that foam has a chemical reaction with PVC ... i.e. the vinyl windows!! Apparently Simonton has requested NOT to use foam anymore around their windows. What is the response to this ... as some of my quotes (I'm not sure, maybe all) have foam involved as part of the installation ... I'm concerned!!

OK, I appreciate your response WoW, but being the speculative guy that I am ... I decided to google this ... I stumbled across this site:vinyl-windows.org/Vinyl-Window-Facts.htm

... wow! They don't have a lot of nice things to say about vinyl. On the topic of foam they say this:Simonton Website 2005 - "The use of expandable foam (insulation) is not recommended (for vinyl windows). Leave a 1/4” gap around the entire window frame to allow for fluctuation and expansion of materials and mortar.”... this is of course a different thing than having a chemical reaction per the salesman today, but some of the comments on this site have me a bit concerned.

I dug around this web site a little and couldn't really determine the source of it or what the agenda was except to discredit vinyl windows. Thoughts? Comments? I don't mean this post to be an attack on vinyl windows ... but this has me concerned all the sudden.

Of course having an Anderson Renewal salesman by helped trigger my concerns ... of course I never got this perspective from anyone else because everyone else I've talked to is totally on vinyl windows.

With all this said, I don't want to go to wood ... but ... help me out here ... is there anything I can look at to allay my sudden fears on vinyl windows?

OK, that was what I was wondering ... it sounded along the lines of what renewal would say, however I couldn't find the source.

Is there any merit to all the things they are saying, or is it all outdated now? The talk of fading/deteriorating in the sun, warping, expanding etc ...??? You addressed the foam concern as being outdated, but was wondering about the other attacks?

OK, that was what I was wondering ... it sounded along the lines of what renewal would say, however I couldn't find the source.

Is there any merit to all the things they are saying, or is it all outdated now? The talk of fading/deteriorating in the sun, warping, expanding etc ...??? You addressed the foam concern as being outdated, but was wondering about the other attacks?

There never was any merit to what they say. This is the height of desparation that RBA reps go through to convince consumers that any window they purchase other than RBA will fall apart, perhaps explode. Apparently, THV Composit salesmen have started the same "bash your competitiors and scare the consumer" sales tactic if my recent experiences are any indication. It's pathetic that they cannot sell windows on their own merit without degrading the competition.

We were a dealer for first fiberglass window ever manufactured from Owens Corning and the sales presentation was designed to smear vinyl and to convince the purchaser that they would be crazy to purchase a vinyl window. I actually believed this due to the consistent issues we were having with the low end vinyl windows that were available 20 years ago. When OC would have yearly dealer meetings it was sport to share with the other dealers the garbage that you could dig up about vinyl to strengthen your case in the home.

Simonton purchased the Owens Corning window division and all of the composite windows that OC offered were replace with Simonton’s vinyl products. This was our first experience with a well engineered high end vinyl window and we have since not seen the need to offer any of the fiberglass or composite products that have become available.

As long as you stay with the better vinyl windows that are recommended on this site your windows will serve you well.

"Bill" is a great example of someone who became eduacated and now knows the truth.Good vinyl is good, also composite windows are good, fiberglass windows are good.You need to find the right product and installation company for you.

A contractor came out last night and he sells Hayfield. Apparently the distributor he goes through the only vinyl window they have is Hayfield. I haven't gotten his quote yet, so not exactly sure what brand, etc ... but it is energy star efficient. Hopefully will know more about that later. He also thought that the Kolbe windows I had may still be under warranty but warranty information I got from someone else I think he's mistaken as they are JUST over 10 years and have damage that is probably outside the warranty ANYWAY.

This morning I went to a Seaway shop, but they also offer the Serious Windows (300 and 501 brands). I was REALLY impressed with the numbers on them. Apparently they have versions that have a film in between the panes of glass ... anyway the ratings are:U-Factor: .2SHGC: .26 (on the DH), .29 (on the Slider)

... of course I don't know the price yet, but it seems like a quality window ... what are the thoughts out here on these products? The other interesting thing is he allayed some of my fears that RBA dug out by showing me a virgin vinyl window and explaining how those deteriorate in UV as opposed to the vinyl window like Serious that has additives in it (the vinyl) to make it stand up to UV, etc ... etc ...

In about an hour I'm seeing someone who is Clearchoice-usa.comThey offer Vista from VistaWindowco.comand Simonton

So ... I'll see what they have to say. I believe Simonton is decently regarded out here to.

Then I wrap up with Sears tonight which has "special" pricing they want to run by me ... they are like double the price of everyone else ... I can't imagine what this is going to be like.

I think this board is just a WONDERFUL resource in my project. Also typing out my queries and findings also helps me think about it more solidly too ... it's one thing talking about a window, sometimes writing it out seems to bring some obvious flaws or benefits out more in my mind.

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