Mikes Backyard Nursery

Dan Permington

Posts: 8

2

posted 1 month ago

I'm thinking of subscribing to their community, but am a little taken aback by their fee. Anyone out there know if the fee is worth it for someone trying to make some good income from homestead tree nursery? Thanks.

Gilbert Fritz

Posts: 1134

Location: Denver, CO

15

posted 1 week ago

I've looked at their site, but I get a feeling it might not be worth it. There is lots of free information all over the web nowadays. But, having never seen it, I can't say for sure.

I have got a small nursery too. I don't have his subscription. I have the feel that all the information is on the web. What he is good at is selling his own stuff and convincing you that is is very easy to sell plants. The information on the web does not have this slant: do this and you get rich in a sec, less encourging but maybe more realistic. What are you doing? My own experience is that growing is easier than selling.
If you have a look at his site it is all about growing and that is very regional and depends on what ressources are in your area. He writes very little about selling probably he is the natural salesperson. Most people starting a busness run into problems selling.

I agree. If you want to start a nursery, you can do it without Mike's help. He's good at what he does, which is plant propagation and sales. He's got some really good ideas and success, but he doesn't have much that really is beyond the scope of many people on this forum, or that is available on the internet elsewhere. As Angelika said, your market is what you need to focus on. If you can't sell it, it doesn't matter how great your plants look, or how good you are at making your plants from cuttings for next to nothing. The fortune is in the sales.

Mike Haych

Posts: 225

Location: Eastern Canada, Zone 5a

posted 1 week ago

3

Depends.

If you are interested in permie type plants which I assume you are, you won't find folks in that particular stream. Out of 191,000 posts, the word permaculture only comes up 66 times and edible only comes up 805 times.

If you are interested in ornamentals, yes it is. But if you don't know how to propagate plants, it will be overwhelming. And you will have to buy rooted cuttings or liners since you aren't able to propagate from cuttings. If you are thinking of edibles rather than ornamentals, you won't find many available for sale on the forum.

For the sake of discussion, let's assume edibles. Are you thinking of retail or wholesale? What do you see as distribution channels? If the net, remember that there are a number of very good, well established nurseries with broad inventories - One Green World, Burnt Ridge, Oikos, St. Lawrence, Raintree, Badgersett, Hidden Springs, etc. And you have to be licensed in the US. You also have to watchout for patent and trademark. I'm not trying to discourage you but rather trying to focus your thinking a bit.

Distribution will be the biggest nut to crack but it can be cracked. You don't want to be a master propagator who has a massive, continuously growing inventory. If you are close to a number of retail nurseries that sell some edibles - grapes, currants, raspberries, strawberries, etc., they are a ready market for locally propagated edibles since they know that they will survive the winter in their area which means happy customers for them. Some simple math: 10 edibles x 10 copies x$5 x "x" nurseries = $500x dollars. Where you set you price point depends on where the nursery's price point is. With a bit of creativity, you can keep your costs down to the cost of the pot and a bit of mycorrhizal fungi so your margin is pretty good.

Leverage your time and skills by developing related income streams. For example, if you decide that you want to sell apples such as Freedom, Liberty, Novamac which are disease resistant varieties and you "make" your own trees by growing your own rootstock and grafting. Then you can sell scion wood from you prunings. You can also put on grafting seminars: 20 people x $100 x twice a year (spring grafting and mid-summer t-budding) less the cost of a full lunch. The participants get to take away the tree that they grafted. And if your fruit orchard is designed following Michael Phillips' holistic approach, you can put on seminars during the winter season: "Designing a no-chemical orchard by focusing on disease resistance and pest reduction." But these are things that you can only do, once you have done it yourself. The practical experience will demonstrate that your teaching is well founded. You don't have to be a master of all grafting techniques but you do have to master one that is quick, easy, and highly successful for you. Although I get requests which tells me the market is there, I don't do this because I'm not a good teacher (not enough patience).

1) Don't join the forum yet since you'll have serious negative cash flow with at least 1 season before you see positive cash flow unless you are buying RC's or liners.

2) Learn how to propagate hardwood and softwood cuttings.

2a) I'd suggest getting The Reference Manual of Woody Plant Propagation. This is my go to book.
2b) Watch what McGroarty does for dormant hardwood cuttings but simplify it by using 7" pots filled with builder's sand. That'll keep your learning costs down while giving you potentially 15-20 cuttings per pot. Keep the pots in the shade.
2c) Watch what McGroarty does for softwood cuttings. But don't use an intermittent mist system to start because it's relatively expensive to set up and relatively complicated compared to a "misting tent". If you can find builders sand great but if you can't, be careful because the medium has be porous enough that the roots do not drown. When I as first starting, I produced a lot of dead sticks until I figured out what the problem was. I have a bad back so I don't use builders sand because I use wash basins that I can l lift onto a bench to work with. A wash basin with moist builder's sand is quite heavy and not good for my back. Keep it in dappled shade.

Getting cuttings to root successfully with consistency and getting the cuttings to transplant successfully, ie, no transplant failures and vigorous growth to a saleable plant as quickly as possible are critical to success.

Stay focused. It's really easy to get super excited by others' success and go running off it many directions before you can even walk.

As a last comment, I would not focus just on edibles. There's a huge market for ornamentals at the right price which is defined as a fraction of big-box prices. If that's something that you decide to do, I'd join McGroarty's forum but only after you've got a bit of propagating under your belt. You can do it before but you may find it all a bit daunting.

Mike Haych

Posts: 225

Location: Eastern Canada, Zone 5a

posted 1 week ago

With all due respect to the comments about McGroarty, yes he is a salesman but he also knows how to propagate plants and how to sell them. It may sound and look like snake oil but it's not. After all how can one not trust a guy who wears bib overalls? LOL

Disclosure: I'm a member of his forum. I knew how to propagate plants for a number of years before I joined but I was blown away by the collected first-hand knowledge that was there. Having said that, as I said in my first post, I would not immediately run out and join the forum unless you have a fair bit of woody perennial propagation under your belt.

Angelika Maier

Posts: 709

Location: cool climate, Blue Mountains, Australia

2

posted 1 week ago

I don't think it is snake oil, but looking at the website you will end up with thousands and thousands of unsellable plants. Of course yard sales are great depending on your area.
I disagree with the intermittent mist system. It is a must especially if you don't live in a cool rainy climate. I bought an expensive timer $50, but the important thing is that this timer can do 10 seconds per
hour. All the rest is cheap. You need black polypipe raisers and misting nozzels, and even I can build that. You are looking at less than 100 dollars here ONLY you have to disconnect this mister in winter and put it inside!!!
I would start with markets and yard sales.

If one ends up with thousands of unsellable plants then its's probably a case growing the wrong plants and/or having the wrong distribution channels. The plants that I choose to grow are the plants that people want which are often not the plants that I like. For example, I don't much like Euonymus alatus 'Compactus' but I sell it because people like it because it works in a small urban lot. Yard sales are only one distribution channel. It all depends on where you live and what you want to do. I could do yard sales where I live but I don't because while it's fun to chat with people, I don't really want to sell plants one, two or even a dozen at a time. And I don't want to manage the logistics of a successful yard sale only to be wiped out by the weather. I'm far more interested in wholesale because I can do volume and it is repeat business.

I agree that intermittent mist is the best way to go especially if you are doing volume. In a 3' x 20' area, I can stick many thousands of cuttings. My timer is set for 10 secs every 10 minutes and I still have to check the growing medium during the peak days of our summer to make sure that it doesn't need watering. My timer cost 5x yours but that's what's available where I am. For me a solenoid valve costs $30 to $40 dollars. A PVC soft-sided greenhouse kit costs $65 plus tax and is set up in minutes. Or you could do it for free, if you can scrounge up the wood for the sides and glass or vapour barrier for the top.

Yes, I have a nursery. How did the subscription help build the business? Lots of answers to that question but the main one is that it allowed me to double what I do. My bias was edibles but the forum's bias is ornamentals. But in the process of listening to what was going on, I had a eureka moment. By starting to think about ornamentals, I suddenly realized that there was a whole untapped distribution channel where I live for ornamentals that was not retail nurseries. And there was no overlap between the channel for edibles and the channel for ornamentals. I don't think that I would have have overcome my bias towards edibles had I not joined the forum. It's not that I don't like ornamentals but rather that I didn't pay enough attention to them. Because ornamentals have far more patent and trademarked plants that edibles that was a problem that they had already dealt with an found legal solutions to. I've also avoided some propagation mistakes by seeing what members were doing. There's a lot of cut-and-paste expertise on the web and far less first hand expertise. For example, googling "propagating japanese maples" will lead you to producing JMs that don't survive winters here even though they are cold hardy to our climate. I was able to find a source in the forum of seeds with an +80% germination rate at a price that I can't find anywhere on the net. That alone pays for the membership.

I'm not suggesting that people do as I have done but rather just sharing the experience of what worked for me. My goals were to supplement a pension while transitioning to a less physically demanding type of gardening that would fit my age. Five to six thousand a year is all that I need. I could probably at least double that if I was willing to drive outside my city but that would require a trailer if I wanted to keep my time and fuel costs down. So my new sales would first go to paying off the trailer before they went into my pocket. At $5/plant, that's a fair number of plants until its paid for. If I had to pay a mortgage, that's what I would have to do but I don't so I don't.

My suggestion is to first learn to propagate HWC and SWC without spending a lot of time and money. Then figure out what your distribution channels are for where you live and who else is in those channels.

Once you've got propagation mastered and have some idea of distribution, then consider a membership.

Americans and, to a certain extent, Canadians will find the membership of value after they learn how to propagate woody perennials. Others will have to adapt to their culture and physical location.

Membership is generally closed but McGroarty does open it up frequently (a marketing trick). At one time he used to offer a trial one month membership for $7. I don't know if he still does or not.

Angelika Maier

Posts: 709

Location: cool climate, Blue Mountains, Australia

2

posted 1 week ago

I had a another look at his site and there's one thing he really does well: he tells stories. He does not get facts over he packs it in stories.
Now, I'm a bit on the hook I consider joining, but I'm in Australia.
I do yard sales which I don't find very time consuming to organise, markets, ebay and my own website.
As I do medicinals etc and not ornamentals I prefer selling myself rather than wholesale because I need thecommunication with the customers.
However retail is a lot of work and neot eary. In fact, it is easier to propagate than to sell, but sure enough I want to learn more of the propagation side too.
I do seeds and cuttings.
We have everything automatically watered (nearly everything). It is important otherwise we could not go away. Even a day on the market can wipe out boxes of plants. I grow in pots and
not in the field. One timer, the one which makes 10 sec, the brand is holmann. I am quite happy with these cheap nozzles form the hardware store they cost about $3 a pack of 10.
I get about 20 nozzles per watering cycle with mains pressure, that means we need various cycles. I use these white boxes from the greengrocer to hold my pots and pop the black
polypipe in between without even fixing it, like that I stay flexible. I saw Mikes system and it looks so much more cumbersome! I should take some pictures.

Thanks for all the replies! Especially to Mike Haych for the very detailed response.

I ended up buying into the forum. I have a two month money-back trial so if it doesn't seem like a good fit, then I'll go another direction. That said, it's a very active and welcoming community. I also like it because of the accumulation of information within one place, and a lot of helpful people willing to answer questions.

A few things I've noticed, as noted in this thread, is kind of a lack of permaculture thinking among the community. I had started a thread about using Willow Water as a rooting hormone and grafting aid, and largely came up against resistance to it. And I understand the points made against using something that is not laboratory controlled to be precise in its amount, but I just like to make use of permaculture techniques even if it means a little more work and a little less efficiency. Another topic I chimed in on was dipping roots in Myccorhizae prior to potting. I didn't get any response with this idea. Still, I've gotten a lot of help with other things.

Mike Haych

Posts: 225

Location: Eastern Canada, Zone 5a

posted 1 week ago

2

Hi Dan,

OK, I know who you are. "Kind of a lack of permaculture thinking" is more that a wee understatement. LOL I'm not surprised that you came up against resistance. When people are successful using a particular tool set, they are loathe to change to something that they don't know especially if their livelihood or pension supplement is based on it. Notwithstanding, you aren't the first to raise the subject of willow water there. If you search for the phrase "willow water" under advanced search and select Match Phrase and Posts and topic titles, you should get 24 hits.

I was checking Dirr & Heuser for some info on Sambucus nigra which immediately follows salix. My eye was drawn to "willow rooting cofactor". From page 321,

Considerable research has been conducted on the "willow rooting cofactor" that is present in willow stems. When extracted, it has facilitated good rooting in other species. See PIPPS 35:509-518. Unfortunately,
it does not perform on a consistent basis.

There is no appendix in the book that lists source details so I'm not sure what PIPPS is.

There's other stuff there that I strongly object to such as the use of pre-emergent herbicides but I don't say anything since I'm not there to convert but rather to learn. Every forum is a reflection on its owner and you accommodate or leave voluntarily or otherwise. I had to edit my detailed response because I inadvertently violated this forum's policy on the mention of using chemicals. I tried to come up with phrasing that might work but finally gave up and deleted the entire section because in trying to rephrase it, I was essentially trying to sneak around the rule. I understand that and accept Paul's house rules because I'm a guest in his house. If I don't like them, I can always start my own forum and do as I wish. LOL. Notwithstanding, anyone who dives into the world of woody plant propagation will come face-to-face with the problem quickly. I understand where you are coming from which is why I hope the bit of digging in the previous paragraph might help you get to where you want to go in a way that fits your ethics.

As for mycorrhizae, it is mentioned but this is a tough one since there is a lot of bogus product being sold. As far as I can tell the products being sold trail back to two main producers Premier Tech and Mycorrhizal Applications. It seems to me that buying a product that is close to the source is a good idea. Or you can attempt to produce your own. Rodale and David Douds published some info a few years ago ago as did Sunseed in the UK. I use it every time that I transplant or pot up. But I also make sure that everything is constantly surface wood chipped to supply a steady supply of soil organic matter which is part of the mycorrhizal puzzle. My conviction is based on two tests that I did. One was accidental in that I didn't inoculate a plant when I was potting up. At the end of the season, I was recycling unsold plants to the compost pile and the potting material to the potting material pile. When the plants were down to bare root there was a huge difference in root mass. I checked the tag. Both were seeded on the same day & both were potted up on the same day but only one had an M on the tag. It was the one with the large root mass. The other test was planned and showed a noticeable difference in aboveground growth. Over the time that I've inoculated heavily, its my sense that my trees and shrubs establish faster and are much healthier and stronger. They certainly handle drought better. In the 2012 drought before I was inoculating widely, we lost newly planted trees because we couldn't water without running the risk of running the well dry. In last summer's drought which was even worse, we lost nothing. In fact, nothing even looked stressed. Coincidence? I don't know and it doesn't really matter because inoculation is cheap, easy, and fast.

Yeh, I think that you'll find a lot of help there. As Robbie Robinson said, "Ya take what ya need and ya leave the rest"

Mike Haych

Posts: 225

Location: Eastern Canada, Zone 5a

posted 1 week ago

Angelika,

Pictures would help. I don't quite understand your set up other than the timer which I'm guessing is the MISTING TAP TIMER – CO3009 model.

It seems that where you are is a fairly small community surrounded by fairly small communities. Facebook has buy/sell groups. A lot of towns in NSW do including Katoomba - https://www.facebook.com/groups/1543651719233376/. It's a great may of connecting - you'd find them rather than them finding you. Once you build a reputation business will start to come to you via word of mouth. BTW, nice FB page you have.

Have you thought of doing woody edible perennials to supplement your herbaceous edible perennials and complement your medicinals? I know nothing about what you can and can't grow in you part of NSW so I won't go any further in that direction other than to link a source site that you probably already know about - http://www.nurseriesonline.com.au/

I don't know if you'll get a great deal out of McGroarty's forum but I really don't know. There could be growers there with interests similar to yours that you could trade notes with. but a trial would be a risk-free way of finding out. Dan can probably give you details on the money-back trial deal.

As I said, I would highly recommend Dirr and Heuser's book I've emailed you an extract on the propagation of Sambucus Nigra which I noticed that you are sold out of. Hopefully, it's of use to you if only as a sample of the book's content.

I just did a search on Australia and got 35 hits. Looking at a couple of posts, I think that a lot of the references are to a "Australian shepherd mix" where the context is talking dogs.

Looking at one post yielded this: " I have seen this type of system in another permaculture setting in Australia (which is also very dry), so will mimic that." Looking at the profile yielded: "Bio: Certified Permaculture Teacher and Designer" The poster joined in 2014 and last was seen a month ago and has made 262 posts so it looks like the person is a permanent member. Looking at some of the 262 posts, leads to other gems, From another poster,

"Our actual farm is considered a certified organic farm. The learning curve for me is to figure out how to work the additives into pots. When planted in the field or ground it is easy because you have a lot of things mother nature provides that will assist in providing nutrients. We use lots of alpha meal for the nitrogen, bone meal for the potassium and produce our own biochar that will assist in microbial activity and water storage. Doing completely organic takes some time to get the conditions ready for growing. But as you said, the end result is so much better. Several books are available to help you and if you ever have any questions I am always available and willing to try and help.

I know that I will eventually figure out how to do this in an economical and efficient manor for potted plants. The key is probably going to be a foliage spray and the additives incorporated into the potting mix. We use another product at the farm called Sea-90 as a foliar spray and a lactobacilli that we cultured ourselves."

So it would appear that there some Mollison subversives and fellow travellers there after all.

Angelika Maier

Posts: 709

Location: cool climate, Blue Mountains, Australia

2

posted 1 week ago

OK I hopefully found out how to integrate pictures! There are three: first is the setup for my seeds. It is away from the ground so that the slugs get less chance. The "table" is a fair bit wobbly though. The timer is set to every 3 hours for a minute. The second is the setup for the pots with rooted plants simply on the ground we got the woodchips for free and with the woodchips I will never have a problem growing potatoes there later, with gravel or so I would. The third is for cuttings. Four old roofing sheets screwed together. It is hip high not because I don't want to bend down but because I did not want to cut the sheets. I filled everything with weeds, trameled it down and after a while filled my cutting sand in. Of course it goes down but tha's OK. The timer is set to 10 sec per hour.
All three systems are the same black polypipe, raisers and nozzles. But the nozzles are different and for the cuttings they are mistling nozzles.

BTW that with the fungi is interesting I have to read into that. While I do very often nothing no hormone no nothing, which is OK for common garden plants as well as for rosemary sage and the like but there are some plants whic are more difficult to strike.

I have been on Mike's mailing list for a while, but not a paid subscriber. I think I bought one of his DVDs years ago.

I think he has excellent information for those who would like to generate a supplemental income through a small business. This is a different proposition from simply learning how to make cuttings for personal use, which can be found freely available all over the web.

He explains how to run a sales day - don't open all year (staff costs etc...) run a weekend sale

He explains how to make your plants look great - there is more to it than taking the cutting itself (think - pruning!)

There is info on how to sell in bulk - eg a batch of 200 cutting could be sold to a local independent retailer to pot up

He explains laws regarding plant sales and marketing - you need to keep flawless track of plant variety names. "A nice plant from the garden" won't cut it as a cultivar for sale.

If you are considering this as a business, then I would definitely consider this information as a great value investment.

Mike Haych

Posts: 225

Location: Eastern Canada, Zone 5a

posted 1 week ago

1

Good looking plants Angelika. And a really sweet timer. There is nothing like it in North America. The only unit here that allows 10 seconds of mist every 10 minutes is the DIG5006-IP. It's expensive but quite versatile if you don't want to be tied to your operation all summer long because of watering. I had little in pots last summer because I was pretty well sold out early but it would have been a watering problem with the drought that we had and the excessive heat so I'm going to set up a second circuit to control early morning irrigation before misting begins. I'll put a y-valve on the tap and run a second water line with a solenoid valve in it to my pots. I don't want to water from overhead because it's not that efficient and I pay for water. I'll use emitter tubing which unlike a soaker hose waters evenly from beginning to end. 100 feet of 1/2" tubing is $35 Plus shipping and tax which is OK. The T and elbow joints are cheap as well. And the flow rate is .9 gal/hour. The only downside that I can see right now (and I'm sure that there will be more as I start to install) is the web of tubing will make navigation interesting. I'm going to have to fiddle with a layout design. Long rows would allow easy access without having to struggle with hose.

Simone Gar

Posts: 86

Location: Alberta, zone 3

1

posted 1 week ago

Mike Haych wrote:Good looking plants Angelika. And a really sweet timer. There is nothing like it in North America. The only unit here that allows 10 seconds of mist every 10 minutes is the DIG5006-IP. It's expensive but quite versatile if you don't want to be tied to your operation all summer long because of watering. I had little in pots last summer because I was pretty well sold out early but it would have been a watering problem with the drought that we had and the excessive heat so I'm going to set up a second circuit to control early morning irrigation before misting begins. I'll put a y-valve on the tap and run a second water line with a solenoid valve in it to my pots. I don't want to water from overhead because it's not that efficient and I pay for water. I'll use emitter tubing which unlike a soaker hose waters evenly from beginning to end. 100 feet of 1/2" tubing is $35 Plus shipping and tax which is OK. The T and elbow joints are cheap as well. And the flow rate is .9 gal/hour. The only downside that I can see right now (and I'm sure that there will be more as I start to install) is the web of tubing will make navigation interesting. I'm going to have to fiddle with a layout design. Long rows would allow easy access without having to struggle with hose.

Hi Mike,

great posts as always. Thank you!

Where do you get the tubing and what type of tubing? I have used tyvek with good results and it is fairly cheap but I have never heard anybody use it. Have you ever heard of it/tried it? The only issue I had was pulling it in fall but I also was in a rush and didn't clean up the bed much before I pulled them. I have to get more so I am wondering if I should go with more of this or switch up.

Mike Haych

Posts: 225

Location: Eastern Canada, Zone 5a

posted 1 week ago

Simone,

Do you have a link to what you use? Do you the same pressure at the end of the line that you do at the beginning of the line?

Mike Haych wrote: Do you the same pressure at the end of the line that you do at the beginning of the line?

Sorry, I overlooked this part. Hm good question. I never tested pressure but I checked the ends regularly and it was wicking water like the front. The good thing is that it is white and easy to spot. I had it mostly dug into the soil but the ends sticking out for checking. I was worried it clogs or mice chew it but it worked all season. Sorry total newb here.

Angelika Maier

Posts: 709

Location: cool climate, Blue Mountains, Australia

2

posted 1 week ago

My timer is probably not even made for the purpose. They advertise it for patio cooling (what a waste of water!). However I do not use their misters and tubes, they are expensive and cumbersome. The black plastic is good. And I hate everything plumbing.