Apparently Royler has incredibly flexible arms, which is why Rickson and Saulo weren't concerned. I've seen him nearly get armbarred in ADCC but his arms were so flexible that although anyone else might have tapped he was fine. He may not have been able to get out of Sak's lock, but that doesn't mean he should lose. There was a minute to go and Sak would have given up or kept applying the pressure.

These guys are professional fighters who know the limits of their bodies - the decision should be there's to make, especially since the referee had no official power to stop the fight.

In all seriousness, I believe Royce and Royler probably would have had a good case to take PRIDE to court because the rules weren't followed and the resultant loss could have an impact on their reputations and income. I guess they couldn't thought because PRIDE have the big pay cheques and it would have stopped them earning more money with them in the future.

OMG, that royce vs Yoshida match was some BS right there. i mean there was about to be a brawl between the two managing teams. If anyone has seen that fight and can recall it. When they got into a dual foot lock/ankle lock on the ground. It almost looked like Royce let go of Yoshida. what happened there? maybe they both had enough?

In all seriousness, I believe Royce and Royler probably would have had a good case to take PRIDE to court because the rules weren't followed and the resultant loss could have an impact on their reputations and income.

Have you ever lived in an Asian country for a fair period of time? Good luck!! If they went to court, the Japanese judge would simply laugh at the chimpy gai-jin bouncing around his courtroom, raise his eyebrows waiting for them to finish, then award the Pride management damages from the Gracies for inconvieniencing a fellow Japanese.

Then see how for the Gracies go without the tons of money they generate through invitations to Pride, let alone the actual fight money! The Gracies can winge and moan every time they lose, but I noticed Rickson was gritting his teeth after the Sak/Royler fight to keep his trap shut as much as possible.

Who wins the battle to save face? The many faces of the US presidents on pieces of nice paper...:)

"Sak was trained in BJJ by Ricardo Pires and a few others. DSE (parent company of Pride) payed for a bunch of world class trainers to come over and teach Matsui, Sak and a few others from Takada Dojo MMA prior to Pride 1."

Yeah but prior to that, he had subbed Conan in the UFC so I dont think we can attribute much of Sak's submission skills to BJJ.

i just saw the fight...was the rule that if time ran out it would've been a draw??
i don't think the referee's decision would've changed the outcome of the fight. Sak dominated Royler from start to finish. Even if time were to have run out and it was called a draw...it was obvious who won...Royler was just bitching cause he lost. and that shoulder lock did look rather tight allready, a little more push i think there would've been a 'pop' .

Put your hand on a hot stove for a minute, and it seems like an hour. Sit with a pretty girl for an hour, and it seems like a minute. That's relativity.
-Albert Einstein

My take is that the Gracies have such humongous egos, they never admit to losing. There is always an excuse. So even if Sak had torn Roylers arm off, and beat him with, it , the Gracies would claim a win, or at least a draw....

Yeah, but sakuraba tapped Conan silviera, a bjj blackbelt, without any bjj training. The whole "pro wrestling" thing is crap. You guys act as if the whole submission thing was invented in brazil. BJJ came from judo. So first of all they have these wide array of judo techniques, a little less refined than bjj, but still good. And also Karl Gotch had trained a lot of pro wrestlers back in the day in japan . This is what drove them to start pancrase, which was the first modern mma. It was around a couple years before the UFC was even thought of. So its not like sak really needed them to bring in some BJJ guy. I mean if it mattered so much Matsui would be awesome too! Sak is just super talented, and very innovative in his approach to fighting and now he's just too banged up to really move with the big boys.

Thats the deal, all right, Sucter. Great posts. IMO Sak has such great success because he is a genius at grappling. He just innovates and is not caught at a loss by anything.

As to the rules for the Gracie fights--how do you know what they were? I heard this no-ref interference for the Royler fight and for the Yoshida fight. But I dont think that was actually the rule. I think the fact is, you cant sanction a fight without a ref to protect the fighters from excess harm. If you actually barred the ref from stopping a fight, and someone died, you would be fuuked. So, I dont believe it. I dont believe that was the actual, agreed upon rule. I bet that is just something the Gracies said, to cover their asses when they lost. The Gracies are the worst, most classless losers I have ever seen.

The silliest thing I have ever seen a fighter do, is what Royce did in the Yoshida fight. Y starts a choke, so what does Royce do? ....plays dead!! Gee, that will certainly keep the ref out of it! Then he is amazed and outraged, when the ref stops it. God, what a moron...

Have you guys seen the second Royce/Yoshida fight? Where Y is squared up facing Royce, not really moving much, and Royce takes dead aim and kicks Y right in the nuts?? If this was a mistake, what was he trying to kick? There was nothing else he could have been aiming for.

Then, after the fight is over, he walks up to Yoshida, and starts poking him in the chest, saying, "Now I respect you", but you can see he doesnt.

I think Royce is the most classless guy in mma, just ahead of Phil Baroni, and Tito Ortiz...