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I'm also wondering how the hell the Federation failed in its negotations with the Vagans to begin with if the Prime Minister was involved.

I mean it's not that hard. Set up a huge military failure for the Federation which would give the Minister an excuse to set up a peace treaty in favour of the Vagans.

The only reason this is is because the Vagans are not interested in co-existing with the Earth Sphere to begin with.

Except the PM would never go for it. They have a working relationship, but he definitely wasn't one of them - he was trying to use them for his own ends. Which don't include "being the loser who surrendered Earth to the genocidal maniacs from Mars". Though I do wonder about what he thought his endgame would be.

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Until I see them actually been serious about going to Mars then that's just plain spectulation on your guys part to try to paint Flit as some genocidal maniac.

Agreed. He only talked about it. I believe even if he was in a position to do it, he'd recant after thinking of the children.

The ones I disagree with are the posters in this very thread who think genocide is justifiable here, that the Federation somehow has no choice, will never have any other choice.

I start to hate the double Standard who is in this board so lately, this like we can give a free hand to the villain because that looks cool form them, but when the protagonist side enter to more 'serious' actions, is like they're the evils all along.

Gundam series is a show about war, Gundam Age is about an almost century long War between the Earth & Veigans, hate and all born in so state of conflict.

I'm waiting how will be Kio time... a time of tranquility or a time of tears?

I start to hate the double Standard who is in this board so lately, this like we can give a free hand to the villain because that looks cool form them, but when the protagonist side enter to more 'serious' actions, is like they're the evils all along.

Gundam series is a show about war, Gundam Age is about an almost century long War between the Earth & Veigans, hate and all born in so state of conflict.

I'm waiting how will be Kio time... a time of tranquility or a time of tears?

What double standards? It goes without saying the villains are wrong.

But the thing is, it doesn't give the heroes free rein to do the same things, even if it could be argued the bad guys "started it".

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Originally Posted by RES-01 Perses Gundam

What I think is that they escalated the conflict between the Feddies and the Vagans. By trading with the Vagans, they allowed the Vagans access to Earth's resources and made it more economical for them to fight a full-scale war in the Earth sphere. They also leaked crucial info to the Vagans on the Feddies' battle capabilities, allowing the Vagans to draw up reliable contingency measures during their skirmishes with the Feddies.

But I won't go as far as saying that the corrupt faction alone was sufficient to cause a war between the Feddies and the Vagans. The basis for war between the two warring parties was already established way before the corrupt faction gained prominence. They merely created some aggravating conditions for the war. I'm sure Ezelcant would have found some other ways to fight a sustainable war with the Feddies, even if it would take a longer time to implement and put into fruition.

Actually, it was already them (the same family, anyway, and probably the same corruption) that abandoned the Martian colonists and covered it up (kinda wonder how they could do that. How hard would it be to send signals back to Earth, signals any radio hobbyist could get?). So, in a real sense, it's their fault the Vagans exist at all.

Which Double Standards? Well than the Veigan doesn't have a good record about colateral Damage(like five colonies being destroyed...On-Screen and several more in side materials) but them when the Federation(mostly the protagonist side, specially Flit) want to going to do counter-measure, the people scream than they plan genocide...

Genocide is NOT NEW in the franchise, heck even the Cold Opening of Gundam 0079 say how almost a third of the Earth Sphere population die from the only the first month(FIRST), of the One Year War because the widespread use of NBC and lack of Sensitive from Zeon(line the Operation British).

Which Double Standards? Well than the Veigan doesn't have a good record about colateral Damage(like five colonies being destroyed...On-Screen and several more in side materials) but them when the Federation(mostly the protagonist side, specially Flit) want to going to do counter-measure, the people scream than they plan genocide...

No, people are saying they Flit is planning genocide because Flit said he was. That's the long and short of it. And we find it necessary to argue against it because people, instead of being appalled at the idea or even merely dismissive of Flit's intentions of actually going through with it, are cheering for it like it's the obvious, sole solution to the Vagan problem.

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Genocide is NOT NEW in the franchise, heck even the Cold Opening of Gundam 0079 say how almost a third of the Earth Sphere population die from the only the first month(FIRST), of the One Year War because the widespread use of NBC and lack of Sensitive from Zeon(line the Operation British).

Other universe, which we weren't discussing at all. Irrelevant. (And if we were discussing them, I'd no doubt argue that genocide is wrong there too...)

Which Double Standards? Well than the Veigan doesn't have a good record about colateral Damage(like five colonies being destroyed...On-Screen and several more in side materials) but them when the Federation(mostly the protagonist side, specially Flit) want to going to do counter-measure, the people scream than they plan genocide...

So? Just because one side commits atrocities doesn't give the other side the right to do the same much less justify it.

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Genocide is NOT NEW in the franchise, heck even the Cold Opening of Gundam 0079 say how almost a third of the Earth Sphere population die from the only the first month(FIRST), of the One Year War because the widespread use of NBC and lack of Sensitive from Zeon(line the Operation British).

Yes, it's not a new concept, but so what? It's still wrong to commit genocide. The Vagans destroyed colonies and killed civilians, those are war crimes. So, Ezelcant and whoever else was in a leadership position and caused the destruction of hte colonies should be punished for war crimes. The people of Vagan, the ordinary citizens don't deserve to be killed because the actions of their leader.

If the EF wins the war, the proper course of action would be to try Ezelcant for war crimes, disband the military and HELP the people who are suffering in the Mars sphere, not murder everybody like Flit explicitly suggested.

__________________

I cannot give you back your homes, or restore your dead to life, but perhaps I can give you justice, in the name of our King. ~ Ned Stark

If the EF wins the war, the proper course of action would be to try Ezelcant for war crimes, disband the military and HELP the people who are suffering in the Mars sphere, not murder everybody like Flit explicitly suggested.

Come back when he does something similar to what he said. He could be pretty well mean the extermination of all Vagan that's not on Mar, or soldier.

Yes, it's not a new concept, but so what? It's still wrong to commit genocide. The Vagans destroyed colonies and killed civilians, those are war crimes. So, Ezelcant and whoever else was in a leadership position and caused the destruction of hte colonies should be punished for war crimes. The people of Vagan, the ordinary citizens don't deserve to be killed because the actions of their leader.

If the EF wins the war, the proper course of action would be to try Ezelcant for war crimes, disband the military and HELP the people who are suffering in the Mars sphere, not murder everybody like Flit explicitly suggested.

The current war hasn't reached a MAD scenario. For the simple fact the Federation can't reach and threaten Mars.

The MAD has it uses that the consequences are so horrible that every attack would have a equal measured response.

Every Vegan in Earth Sphere is a combatant. So yeah wiping them out makes sense given they wont surrender or be taken as prisoners.

From what we've gathered despite being the main defense forces of Earth sphere the EF military does not have a presence or control on every colony. Forces are quite minimal.

These colonies are mostly independent. Some I imagine declaring themselves neutral.

So really this is a Earth vs Mars conflict. Vegan has established in several decades infrastructure to invade Earth. Earth on the other hand does not have the means to conduct an offense to threaten Mars to surrendering or ceasing the conflict.

What's kind of silly about this entire thing is, at this point the grunt units on each side are fairly evenly matched. And there is no way even after 150 years, that a small colonization force for Mars; especially with those mortality rates, would be able to take on the combined military forces of Earth.

Yes, the Earth officials were impeding progress, but much like the US after Pearl Harbor -- they should have been able to produce an insane amount of war materiel backed by 6-9 billion people. There can't be more than a few hundred million Vagans. And they obviously rely on Earth resources to produce a good chunk of their suits.

Why is there yet another 25 year gap after Age2, when at that point, the officials were purged and they should be able to steam forward with pilot training and mobile suit production.

In terms of how far Flit can go it could get pretty scary. After all if he retains his belief that the Vagans aren't human then will he pull the breaks at just their military? It may never become an issue in the series, but I can't say that Flit isn't capable of going that far. There's a lot of anger there after all.

And this does not mean I'm supportive of the Vagans (better cut off that criticism before it starts).

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Originally Posted by JediNight

What's kind of silly about this entire thing is, at this point the grunt units on each side are fairly evenly matched. And there is no way even after 150 years, that a small colonization force for Mars; especially with those mortality rates, would be able to take on the combined military forces of Earth.

Yes, the Earth officials were impeding progress, but much like the US after Pearl Harbor -- they should have been able to produce an insane amount of war materiel backed by 6-9 billion people. There can't be more than a few hundred million Vagans. And they obviously rely on Earth resources to produce a good chunk of their suits.

Why is there yet another 25 year gap after Age2, when at that point, the officials were purged and they should be able to steam forward with pilot training and mobile suit production.

It is hard to believe they can sustain this level of war if they are suffering that badly. Sure, it would motivate them to win, but it wouldn't make it more possible for them to fight for this long. At the start it was clear that the Federation was way behind, but Flit has been there long enough that the gap should be closed.

Of course the grunts on both sides suck so badly it's hard to tell where they stand against each other. But somehow I expect them to say that even though Flit should be ramping up the Federation war machine that things are still bad. Maybe saying that Flit's purge put some countries on edge and make them more willing to cooperate and support the Vagan cause...or something.

At any rate I'm sure they won't spend much time on the logistics of it all. Just get Kio into that Gundam, that's the plan .

Actually, it was already them (the same family, anyway, and probably the same corruption) that abandoned the Martian colonists and covered it up (kinda wonder how they could do that. How hard would it be to send signals back to Earth, signals any radio hobbyist could get?). So, in a real sense, it's their fault the Vagans exist at all.

Haha, personally I find absolute arguments like yours a little distasteful because I'm a history student. So we always believe that there isn't one single cause for every phenomenon, but really a blender of factors of different significance..

Sure, corruption within the Feddies did breed contempt and indifference within the system, giving rise to irresponsible actions taken like the cover-up of the Martian project that condemned a whole population of humans on Mars. But at that point of time, those humans were desperately struggling for survival, and in my opinion, didn't really band around a common identity of "resisting adversity" or anything.

At least not up till the point when Ezelcant appeared, who probably enlightened them by highlighting their common sufferings, helping to cultivate the identity of "Vagans".

Anyone will found it funny if Martian project was same as Gundam Wing novel?
People colonies Mars > after that they want their on independence from FED which
lead to some trouble >

Age what if: FED got angry because they waste their resource to colonies Mars only to lost it
so they decided to leave Mars and cut their relation with them >
because of trouble with FED(war?) Mars people lose a lot of resource which made Mars colonies harder >
in the end they have to ask FED for help > but FED ignored them.

(-Didn't believe them?
-Didn't feel like wasting fortune to help people who will just bite them back?
Or maybe they was too far away and they calculated that by the time they arrived no one wll be alive so they decided to ignore them.
And yes it's wrong.)

I can't be the only person that thinks that super Vagan suit has possibly the worst colour scheme ever?
Theres alot of problems with this series and all but all of it suddenly seems to really pale in comparison to this woefully coloured MS-__-

Purple and white on black with yellow and red highlights and green claws. No self-respecting commander would put himself inside that.

Until I see them actually been serious about going to Mars then that's just plain spectulation on your guys part to try to paint Flit as some genocidal maniac.

I don't take flit's words literally either, though given the way it's presented in this episode, it's not unexpected that some people would take flit's words literally.

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And this does not mean I'm supportive of the Vagans (better cut off that criticism before it starts).

Lol yea, I think it's just two people at most here who would paint the Vagan in white light. This line of criticism has really been blown out of proportion here somehow, probably due to arguments in past threads as mentioned...

Haha, personally I find absolute arguments like yours a little distasteful because I'm a history student. So we always believe that there isn't one single cause for every phenomenon, but really a blender of factors of different significance..

Sure, corruption within the Feddies did breed contempt and indifference within the system, giving rise to irresponsible actions taken like the cover-up of the Martian project that condemned a whole population of humans on Mars. But at that point of time, those humans were desperately struggling for survival, and in my opinion, didn't really band around a common identity of "resisting adversity" or anything.

I don't think they had the leeway of not banding together... What you might argue is that they didn't have the leeway of plotting revenge, either.

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At least not up till the point when Ezelcant appeared, who probably enlightened them by highlighting their common sufferings, helping to cultivate the identity of "Vagans".

Certainly. But my point still stands: without the initial cover-up, there would have been no Vagan. They'd have taken the economic loss and made some effort to bring the colonists back.

Zant was using a completely new model. Looked to have the same frame as a Dorado for the most part, but the unique hands, tail, and head pretty much ensure its a new model.

thank you very much, looks like i got another model to add to the wanted list. lol its the only one i want from AGE. most of the AGE MS look decent and dont stand out much from MS of other series. im looking for unique ones atm. i got too many unbuilt and 1 other still to order, i still work on my model kits but i procrastinate alot. im glad its a new model, i had a fear i'd have to customise a paint job on the kit if it was an old model.