(11-04-2015 06:36 PM)JFish123 Wrote: It's interesting how one complaint can set off a firestorm of bigotry and hate for anyone with religious beliefs.

No, it's fucking hilarious how fast some people can self-immolate in order to generate a poor-me pity party for themselves. I've read your book, I know that many Christians (and you are one I'm sure, given your oh-so-subtle forum moniker) have a persecution complex; but it's not an accident or an attack when you go around looking for buses to throw yourself in front of, so please stop it.

We're not hating on 'anyone with religious beliefs', but specifically the people who use their religion as a shield for their bigotry. Those people can fuck right off, because they're bigots.

(11-04-2015 06:36 PM)JFish123 Wrote: The left and atheists want to be respected for there beliefs or lack there of, but when it comes to others beliefs, sue, sue, sue.

I'm sorry if you're not a fan of the 14th Amendment, but we are. You're not allowed to discriminate against people, even if you think they're yucky. Do you really want the courts to start arbitrating what is, and is not, a 'sincerely held religious belief'? No? Then it sure as shit cannot be used as a basis for anything, let alone allowing for religious exemptions to be bigoted assholes.

(11-04-2015 06:36 PM)JFish123 Wrote: I mean we have to respect each other's beliefs. Even if you don't agree with them.

Respect? No we fucking do nothave to respect your beliefs. Plus, how does that work in the reverse? Clearly the bigots who are refusing to serve gays don't 'respect the belief' of the gays themselves, who believe that they are normal and decent human beings and citizens of this society worthy of equal treatment.

So you can take your sanctimonious 'beliefs' and shove it. Come back to us when you actually have something more intelligent to say than just poorly regurgitating Fox News talking points.

(11-04-2015 12:12 PM)BnW Wrote: It is, unfortunately, legally different. As of the moment I'm writing this, homosexuals are not a recognized protected class under the US Constitution or under US discrimination laws.

Now, you're a lawyer and I'm not, so I'm treading carefully and with due respect for your experience in your profession -- but given that the affair is a private affair and not held in a place of public accommodation, does it matter whether or not those subjected to bigotry are in a protected class or not?

I'm not sure why you feel you need to tread carefully. But, yes, it matters whether or not those subjected to bigotry are in a protected class or not. It also matters how that class is created.

You become part of a protected class one of three ways:
1. Through the Equal Protection clause of the 5th and 14th Amendment of the US Constitution - this limits who the federal and state governments can discriminate against, but does not impact the private sector.
2. Through any equal protection clause in a state constitution - this will vary by state and will limit who the individual state can discriminate against, but also does not impact the private sector. State constitutions must cover at least what the Federal Constitution covers but can cover, and often does, more than the Federal Constitution.
3. Legislation - legislation will impact private industry and can prevent private entities from discriminating on a host of things, from who you can employee to who you can do business with.

So, to pull all this together, let's look at what is going on in Indiana.

First, at the federal level, gays are not currently recognized as a protected class under the Federal Constitution or under any federal law. That is likely to change, though, as the Supreme Court is going to hear arguments on the gay marriage issue and the general sense is they will rule that the right to marry is protected under the 5th and 14th Amendments.

Second, the Indiana supreme court ruled last year that their state constitution equal protection clause does require marriage equality and gays have the right to marry.

Third, Indiana has legislation on anti-discrimination but gays are not covered. So, while you can't stop gays from marrying, in the state of Indiana you are not currently required to do any business with them. But, a lot of local municipalities have passed laws that stop that and say, basically, "if you do business within the boarders of our community, you do business with everyone equally".

What the Indiana so-called freedom of religion law really does is knock out all those local laws and allow people state-wide to discriminate against gays and lesibians in commerce. Or, at least it was going to do that. Under a lot of pressure, the Indiana legislator is changing the law to clarify that it specifically does not allow discrimination or overrule any anti-discrimination ordinances (which is interesting because I'm 99% sure the entire point of the law was to allow businesses to refuse serving gay couples).

Does that help? Btw, you can disagree but what I've written is not an opinion, it's the way the laws work.

Shackle their minds when they're bent on the cross
When ignorance reigns, life is lost

It's interesting how one complaint can set off a firestorm of bigotry and hate for anyone with religious beliefs.

The left and atheists want to be respected for there beliefs or lack there of, but when it comes to others beliefs, sue, sue, sue.

I mean we have to respect each other's beliefs. Even if you don't agree with them.

Thanks for coming here and demonstrating that you have absolutely no understanding of the issues involved. It's refreshing to see that the people opposing these laws have absolutely no idea what they are even opposing.

Shackle their minds when they're bent on the cross
When ignorance reigns, life is lost

Doesn't matter. I find it just as absurd for gays who vote republican. It is basically siding with morons. If you are willing to take their money in one context why would you be half assed about it? It is the same bullshit argument made about mixed race couples. Half assed bigotry is still bigotry.

(Yesterday 08:36 PM)JFish123 Wrot Wrote:It's interesting how one complaint can set off a firestorm of bigotry and hate for anyone with religious beliefs. The left and atheists want to be respected for there beliefs or lack there of, but when it comes to others beliefs, sue, sue, sue. I mean we have to respect each other's beliefs. Even if you don't agree with them.

I hate the word "respect". It is not a majority used in the manor people want it to mean. It is far too widely used to mean "don't bruise my ego" and or "know your place". I use the word "value", and certainly I value anyone's right to make whatever claim they want, but that does not mean the claim itself deserves a taboo pedestal.

You can claim the New York Yankees won the Superbowl till you are blue in the face but it would still be a bullshit claim no matter how much you claim it. I do not value ideas that get to such a political level as to the point they deny the rights of others and or cause individuals or groups to harm others. I will NOT play nice verbally to anyone who who demands taboos. Ideas worth holding can withstand scrutiny and blasphemy. Ideas that demand taboos are the quickest way to fascism.

About twenty years ago I went to a local hardware store (privately owned) in the small southern town where we lived. My son was with me, he was nine or ten at the time. As I looked around for what I needed the owner started making conversation. The conversation went like this...I don't need to sell anything to n*****s. They don't need to come in here, it's my store and I don't want or need their money. I ushered my son out to the car. I replaced the items I had picked up for purchase and left the store never to return.

Unfortunately the bigotry of the store owner wasn't a huge surprise to me. My choice was to never enter that place again. If he didn't need 'their' money, he didn't need mine either.

This whole won't sell to gays things is equally disgusting and unacceptable. The best way to force the hand of people like this is to hit them in the wallet. Let their god provide when their business fails.

Of course, another way I see this is wondering why you would want someone so fucking hateful and ignorant to cater your wedding? I understand the drive to get rid of the religious freedom laws but take your business elsewhere.

If I run into asshole behavior in a store...there are other stores...I go there instead. There are few commodities that have only one source.

See here they are the bruises some were self-inflicted and some showed up along the way. - JF

(12-04-2015 08:10 AM)BnW Wrote: So, to pull all this together, let's look at what is going on in Indiana.

First, at the federal level, gays are not currently recognized as a protected class under the Federal Constitution or under any federal law. That is likely to change, though, as the Supreme Court is going to hear arguments on the gay marriage issue and the general sense is they will rule that the right to marry is protected under the 5th and 14th Amendments.

Second, the Indiana supreme court ruled last year that their state constitution equal protection clause does require marriage equality and gays have the right to marry.

Third, Indiana has legislation on anti-discrimination but gays are not covered. So, while you can't stop gays from marrying, in the state of Indiana you are not currently required to do any business with them. But, a lot of local municipalities have passed laws that stop that and say, basically, "if you do business within the boarders of our community, you do business with everyone equally".

What the Indiana so-called freedom of religion law really does is knock out all those local laws and allow people state-wide to discriminate against gays and lesibians in commerce. Or, at least it was going to do that. Under a lot of pressure, the Indiana legislator is changing the law to clarify that it specifically does not allow discrimination or overrule any anti-discrimination ordinances (which is interesting because I'm 99% sure the entire point of the law was to allow businesses to refuse serving gay couples).

Does that help? Btw, you can disagree but what I've written is not an opinion, it's the way the laws work.

I was more approaching it from the reading of the CRA of 1964, which is what many folks, myself included, were thinking of when considering the legality of the law, hence my question about "public accommodation."

Not being a lawyer, I'm not informed of details such as the ones you've provided. Thanks.

(12-04-2015 09:20 AM)Anjele Wrote: Of course, another way I see this is wondering why you would want someone so fucking hateful and ignorant to cater your wedding? I understand the drive to get rid of the religious freedom laws but take your business elsewhere.

Well, I think... what if every business in town is like that? That means that as a gay person *everyone* is going to refuse to serve you. You don't necessarily want to schlepp to do the catering *yourself* for your own wedding... And you're offering to pay them a fair rate, it's... ja, if I was doing it I'd also like to say "Well fine, fuck you" and leave... but it's gotta stop somewhere.

Also worth it to take a stand so maybe the next gay couple has a more awesome, less God-hates-fags experience...

Fucking bigots... I mean, what the fuck do they do all day? I'm continually amazed at the number of random assholes you guys manage to assemble whenever shit happens anywhere in the US, holding various signs detailing what God is gonna do for X random fucking stupid thing they object to... Like seriously, those guys need to get a life...

We'll love you just the way you are
If you're perfect -- Alanis Morissette

(06-02-2014 03:47 PM)Momsurroundedbyboys Wrote: And I'm giving myself a conclusion again from all the facepalming.

The Christians at the bakery and pizzeria have served gay people all the time. It would actually be unchristian to do so. They just wouldn't do a gay wedding, that's it. There's a differences in not serving someone cause there gay and not wanting to CATER a gay wedding. https://youtu.be/l1_gqbQcI60
Big government loves to force people to do things. And this video data if all. And no, neither this video nor I ever think gay people or the gay movement are nazis, that's silly. But I would never force a gay baker to do anything. Don't want to do a cake because of the bible verses on it? Ok, I'll just go somewhere else. I might think your wrong but I won't sue you for it. That's ridiculous. Some peoples disdain, bigotry toward people of faith are clearly shown.