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Topic: Help diagnose a lost hive (Read 4865 times)

Brian, not trying to be argumentative but fanning and washboarding are separate events. If I understand the definition of washboarding (pretty sure I do) I've never seen a bee beating it's wings as in fanning at the same time...just moving back and forth with the occasional flip of the wing.

Scott

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For what it's worth, I'm going to try an upper entrance on my hives this year. A local expert at a recent seminar said he uses them in is area and even cited some local researcher who went with a bottomless hive for a winter to prove that air flow isn't as dangerous as some would think, and that insulation isn't as helpful as some think. I'm sure there's a limit and at some point too much air flow is harmful, but it seems reasonable to me that some is ok.

But like mentioned before, entrance placement doesn't really even come into consideration if you have a poor queen. I'm not sure how things were with package bees in the 70's cuz at it's peak I was only 6, but in 2010 out of my first 3 packages, 1 superseded within weeks and another never laid the first egg and turned into a laying worker hive. Bad performing package queens seem to be the norm, especially when we as beekeepers are an impatient bunch and have to have them yesterday-basically too early for proper queen mating. By all means, switch to an upper entrance if thats what you want to do, but the first thing you need is a GOOD performing queen.

If I understand the definition of washboarding (pretty sure I do) I've never seen a bee beating it's wings as in fanning at the same time...just moving back and forth with the occasional flip of the wing.

For what it's worth, I'm going to try an upper entrance on my hives this year. A local expert at a recent seminar said he uses them in is area and even cited some local researcher who went with a bottomless hive for a winter to prove that air flow isn't as dangerous as some would think, and that insulation isn't as helpful as some think. I'm sure there's a limit and at some point too much air flow is harmful, but it seems reasonable to me that some is ok.

But like mentioned before, entrance placement doesn't really even come into consideration if you have a poor queen. I'm not sure how things were with package bees in the 70's cuz at it's peak I was only 6, but in 2010 out of my first 3 packages, 1 superseded within weeks and another never laid the first egg and turned into a laying worker hive. Bad performing package queens seem to be the norm, especially when we as beekeepers are an impatient bunch and have to have them yesterday-basically too early for proper queen mating. By all means, switch to an upper entrance if thats what you want to do, but the first thing you need is a GOOD performing queen.

Oh yes, point taken. I am switching vendors this year (as I only had one hive I need to re-start). I think my primary motivation is the fact that my lower entrance was plugged and the bees couldn't escape for cleansing flights. That wouldn't have given them more food, nor do I think my moisture problem was bad, but it seems like there is enough support for them and local guys using them that it seems like a reasonable way to go.

I have been pretty fortunate with my queens. I have bought most of mine through a commercial outfit near me and they have weeded out the bad apples (from what I gather) when it comes to queen rearing outfits who just are out to make a fast buck. I have yet to have a queen fail but in mid summer I noticed a good portion get supercieded even after scraping first batch of e-cells. Not sure if that is queen quality or something else. I like my own swarm cell queens the best, hands down.

I agree with the patience thing. I think you are better off waiting a month or even longer and waiting for local bees from a local outfit. Someone local is not going to want to sell crap in his/her own back yard. A nuc a month behind or so is still better than a package thats a coin flip. I meet a guy who lost three of four packages last season. Sounded like everyone who got packages in his beekeeping association from what ever source had similar luck. He bought one nuc from me and he wants three this year. he may have to wait a few weeks longer but a five frame nuc is like a month old package anyway as far as Im concerned. May pay a bit more but at least you know you are getting a decent laying queen. You get what you pay for.

T-Beek If you want to get together over some coffee or a peek at your bees this summer, Im game. Let me know. Ill show you how a top entrance works, LOL Just kidding. Im not sure if they are any better either. I have one colony that did not get one and its seems to be doing great.

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An eloquent response as always. I'm not looking to get into a debate on our differences of opinions either. Some believe excess ventilation is required and are successful beekeepers. Some believe differently and are equally as successful. My concern/objection, is the almost immediate write off of winter failure to moisture/lack of ventilation. This post is the perfect example, the gentleman admits his bees where weak all year and yet folks immediately suggested moisture as the issue. The gentleman even states he did not see any condensation on the inner cover when he checked them a few weeks ago.

It just is mind boggling to me that folks can't look past ventilation as the cause and consider queen failure. We are seeing package bees supercedure in epidemic proportions and commercial queens not even lasting an entire season. All the ventilation in the world ain't going to save a weak or failing colony.

An upper entrance is not required, an upper vent is. An upper entrance provides an entrance and a vent, look at it as economy of use.

Most of my hives have zero upper ventilation and are doing fine, while I have heard reports of others in my area already claiming 75-80% loss. I do consider it an economy of use. My well insulated hives help the bees retain heat and they use ~25-30% stores compared to my other hives. The retained heat also allows them to build up quicker in the spring. I can't imagine anyone debating the fact that warmth allows the bees to cover more brood.

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In a regular beehive bearding develops quite often during the late spring and throughout the summer. Bees beard as much to provide ventilation as it is to cool the hive due to crowding. If bees near the entrance are watched closely it should soon dawn on an observer that some of the bees aligned along the entrance portion of the bottom board are fanning their wings to push air into the hive and another part are fanning their wings to pull air out of the hive, they are airconditioning the hive. Inside bees are fanning air up one side and down the other in an effort to keep the hive from overheating.

Forage bees returning to the hive land on top of the fanning bees, and enter the hive, forage bees leaving the hive climb up the box a ways and then take off. Meanwhile the bees aligned along the entrance of the hive (Often referred to as washboarding) continue pushing air in and pulling air out, circulating the air to vent the hive.

Around here, air conditioning refers to more than just moving air, but also removing humidity from the air you are displacing with. The general consensus seems to be that the more air that moves through the hive, the easier it is for the nectar to ripen. Yet Ed Clarke in "Constructive Beekeeping" does the math to show that if the bees had to rely of ventilation only, you would see fog coming out of the entrance and they would need a ridiculous amount of air exchanges per hour. His hypothesis is that they rely much more on condensation than evaporation.

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The beekeeper in placing an upper entrance/vent (hopefully leaving the lower entrance operational) makes the work of the bees doing the airconditioning less strenuous on the bees as they only have to move the air in two directions, in and up, they no longer have to move it sideways, down and out.

I don't want to get into the beekeeper's will verses the bee's will again, but I still can't overlook the fact that when given a choice, it seems that bees prefer a closed cavity over an open one. Why would that be if ventilation is so critical to them?

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An eloquent response as always. I'm not looking to get into a debate on our differences of opinions either. Some believe excess ventilation is required and are successful beekeepers. Some believe differently and are equally as successful. My concern/objection, is the almost immediate write off of winter failure to moisture/lack of ventilation. This post is the perfect example, the gentleman admits his bees where weak all year and yet folks immediately suggested moisture as the issue. The gentleman even states he did not see any condensation on the inner cover when he checked them a few weeks ago.

Im very uncomfortable being referred to as "The gentleman"

From what I've gathered by the reponses, had I a moisture problem it would have been more apparent. I have one of those plastic bottom boards that's pitched to the center and has ventilation on the bottom, and the tray didn't have excess water in it. I'm still a little worried about the small amount of what appears to be mold on one frame though.

I was more concerned about the smell and the brownish gunk. And it seems reasonable that freshly deceased bees smell, and that if my entrance was closed it was a matter of "when ya gotta go..." which im sure didn't help anything. But at the end of the day, they ran out of food and I failed to take enough action early. Im still going with an upper entrance, but that wouldn't have saved them.

It's still my fault (or at least partially my fault, they may have been doomed from the beginning), but im committed to learning and not repeating when I can.

Brian, not trying to be argumentative but fanning and washboarding are separate events. If I understand the definition of washboarding (pretty sure I do) I've never seen a bee beating it's wings as in fanning at the same time...just moving back and forth with the occasional flip of the wing.

Scott

I shouldn't post when I've got a raging migraine. In my mind I was trying to distinguish between fanning and washboarding and ended up confusing the two and looking like and idiot (my word, not anyone else's).

Robo:I don't disagree that beekeeping without ventilation can be successful, in fact I believe I described what bees do when the lack of equipment ventilation is present.

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If bees near the entrance are watched closely it should soon dawn on an observer that some of the bees aligned along the entrance portion of the bottom board are fanning their wings to push air into the hive and another part are fanning their wings to pull air out of the hive, they are airconditioning the hive. Inside bees are fanning air up one side and down the other in an effort to keep the hive from overheating.

My point is that providing ventilation makes it easier on both the bees and the beekeeper. I try very hard not to say things have to been done they way I do them. I will, however post what I believe is the best way to keep bees, readers can take it or leave it. Also, I will often post answers to questions to methods I don't believe in, so that the requesting beekeeper has an understanding and appropriate answer to his question.

There are as many correct ways to keep bees as there are incorrect ways. The best any of more experienced beekeepers on this forum can expect is to pontificate what we've learned from our experience and let those who read heed or disregard that experience as they desire. I'm in a unique position, I had a mentor who began keeping bees in the late 1890's attempt to teach me eavery thing he learned in over 60 years of beekeeping, to that I've added what I've learned in over 50 years of beekeeping. I'm still learning, experimenting, and changing the way I do things as a result, Why should I ask anymore of those that read my posts?

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