no offence Rosi but how does the UFC 'refuse to acknowledge the existence of female fighters'?

Aside from not having any female fights, you mean? Well, as an example there's the time when they interviewed Jennifer Howe and introduced her only as "Jeremy Horn's girlfriend" (no mention that she's also one of the top female fighters in the world).

as for the domestic violence thread the reason they are selling ufc stuff is because they have had it donated to them. on their site they take donations from anywhere to raise funds for shelters/care for men, women and kids

OK, i can understand that... it's just that if you look at the advert on ebay, then the "UFC" is rather prominently highlighted, which struck me as somewhat ironic given their apparent attitude towards women at the present time.

But i'm not going to pursue the point.

Good luck with it, anyhow. :)

Rosi

04-06-2006, 10:41 PM

1) The UFC has struggled with public and government perception for years and having female fights would not help that (I personally dont have a problem with female fights but many people do)

I disagree with this argument. I honestly believe that including women's fights will help, rather than hinder, the acceptance of MMA as a genuine sport.

2) There are not that many great women fighters, and there are alot of very good male fighters who dont get fights in the UFC simply because there isnt enough space on the shows, and I wouldnt rather watch the lightweights have more fights instead of a woman's fight which in all likelyhood not be as skilled.

The best female fighters in the world are a good deal better than the worst fighters in the UFC. So this argument is null and void.

I agree with Leigh that they'd probably be struggling to put together a competitive weight division at the moment, but you could certainly line up some female fights of a high enough standard.

DianeB

05-06-2006, 03:56 PM

I more than happy to have women train at Quannum or Colosseum in any class I am training or coaching Glad to hear it.

I disagree with
means less of a pool of talent. This then means that the 'bar' is lowered for a woman to be considered 'good'.... so what we end up with is a lower level of quality in the sport. It's the expectations of promotors & fans that are low. Leading to comments such as 'oh that was good for a girl. When in fact 'It was good'. The girls are getting better, let us take the place of the worst boys.

DianeB

05-06-2006, 04:23 PM

In all the places I have trained. It has been a FACT that the women train more often than the men on a regular basis, are very committed & work hard. They therefore deserve to be taken seriously & trained accordingly.

We don't simply want to be tolerated and allowed to train. If your instructor won't train you to fight & you want to fight, change to an instructor who will.

iandean

05-06-2006, 08:56 PM

I don't very often venture down further than the top two forums, but this has been an interesting discussion.

There hasn't been a representative of Cagewarriors management in this thread yet. I'd be interested to hear what their collective line on the matter is.

Their collective line on what exactly? As this thread has been all over the place.

I don't think there is any 'uk' female bouts that stand out for Strike Force right now (at least fights that wouldn't be clouded by politics) Internationally there are bouts to be made i'm sure and Rosi Sexton has shown that CW are willing to put female fighters on their premier event.

EDIT - Actually i can now think of possibly 2 fights

After all Rosi's fight with Dina van Den Hoven was said by some to be one of teh fights of the night and the crowd really enjoyed it too.

As for Quest...if their are females fighters wanting to fight...then they should get their coach or manager to contact any of the CW team and we'll see.

I seen a few posts saying there should be more female fights...and of course their should, but how many female fighters have got their coach/manager to get them fights by contacting promotions or sending a fighter cv or profile.

For me its like getting a normal 9 to 5 job, if you don't apply how will they know about you? There is only so much scouting that can be done imo....and how can you scout what is not there

Rosi

05-06-2006, 09:29 PM

I think the problem is that because the talent pool is so small for women, then the level is naturally lower.

We've agreed that there probably isn't the talent at present to support a whole women's weight class yet... but i believe that the best female fighters in the world ARE of a high enough standard. So they could put a couple of fights on, surely?

I think women like Rosi and Carla can really demonstrate that women can be skilled fighters.

Much as i appreciate the sentiment, Aaron, I think if you look worldwide (especially US and Japan) you'll find there are a whole bunch more women of at least as high a standard.

Rosi

05-06-2006, 10:58 PM

Internationally there are female matches waiting to happen at the moment which i would put money on being at a good standard for UFC. So why not do it?

LOL at aaron trying to argue that i'm the best female fighter in the world. I'm flattered, but i think i still have work to do. I can think of half a dozen names off the top of my head who would give me one hell of a run for my money.

Oh, this is hardly even worth mentioning but your maths is out... if you have 10 decent fighters that's 45 possible match ups. See, that maths PhD comes in handy after all

Rosi

05-06-2006, 11:28 PM

Rosi, You have picked me up on my point.... you can think of half a dozen who would give you trouble? HALF A DOZEN... 6.....wow, that many... awesome... thats my arguement of a limited talent pool smashed to pieces!!!

I'm not debating that there aren't hordes of good female fighters out there just yet.

My argument is that there are ENOUGH (ie. more than two) who are at a high enough standard to put a good female fight on the UFC.

And half a dozen was just off the top of my head. I know there are more than that.

Lets take you and Carla out of the UK mix... OK, I want to put on a decent show, female fighters only... I need 10-12 fights.... so 24-30 female fighters needed. Its a small show, so UK fighters only....could the UK supply that many female Pro MMAers? Could it even supply half that many? If it could... what level would it be?... pretty damn poor I reckon!

Um... you're right about that, but so what? We're not talking about finding a dozen fights, much less from the UK only. We're talking about finding a single international match up worthy of the UFC. Now, i KNOW that's possible.

iandean

05-06-2006, 11:31 PM

I think in the UFC's case they would have additional pressure/problems from PPV companies, state commissions, pressure groups, news people, their inbred fans and sponsers if they were to put on female fights.

Not that it is an exuse...just something else to think about

Rosi

05-06-2006, 11:36 PM

I think in the UFC's case they would have additional pressure/problems from PPV companies, state commissions, pressure groups, news people, their inbred fans and sponsers if they were to put on female fights.

Not that it is an exuse...just something else to think about

That's my point, Ian - these are the real reasons.

I think it's primarily the fans that are the potential problem. As far as the authorities go, it's a pretty easy case to make and i think it could be more of an asset than a liability.

Rosi

06-06-2006, 08:45 AM

I think if the UFC put on a one off female fight it would be seen as a spectacle which would not be good for the UFC or womens MMA.

I don't really see why. You've got to start somewhere.

Many other shows (eg KOTC) started out by putting "one off" female fights on their cards alongside the men.

Essentially there is no existing market for female MMA

Really? So why do i keep getting offered fights then? Excuse my naive grasp of economics, but surely if someone is paying me to do something then there must be a demand for it.... ?

The biggest issue with marketing female MMA at the moment is getting it out there in the first place. People need to see that it's there, and that it CAN be at a high standard.

Rumour has it that when the UFC were looking at doing a show in Japan, they were considering a female fight for that event (presumably because the Japanese audiences are rather more educated in that respect than their American counterparts). Interestingly, i think UK audiences are probably more tolerant as well - certainly most UK events have had or are trying to have female events on their shows.

Rosi

06-06-2006, 10:52 AM

Aaron, if you're suggesting that the market for female MMA is currently a good deal smaller than the market for male MMA then i'd agree with you. But it is inaccurate to say that there is "essentially no market for it".

You might as well suggest that there is "essentially no market" for MMA, because it's tiny compared to boxing and most people wouldn't recognise the top MMA fighters on the street.

Your lack of interest in female MMA is old news (although i find it odd that someone would spend so much time arguing about something which doesn't interest them...). Fortunately not everyone feels the same way.

Exposure is very key to developing the market, but exposure of poor skills and fighters is simply going to destroy the opportunity for the truly talented and dedicated.

Agree totally.

Several years ago when i first fought on Cagewarriors 1, the fight had no headshots because everyone was worried about how people would react and there was a lot of controversy about it on the forums. Now, just a few years later CW can put a female fight on with exactly the same rules as the guys, first fight of the night and nobody bats an eyelid. So what's changed?

The UFC were probably the major influence in getting people interested in MMA. Back in the 90s, they were the biggest innovators and risk takers in the sport, and that's what got it to where it is today. People didn't accept it immediately; people rarely accept any new development straight away - they are resistant to change. But given time and exposure, it becomes seen as normal.

It may well be that the UFC is now too mainstream and too conservative to be at the forefront of development in the sport - in which case the job will be done by others.

There will always be dinosaurs in any field of human endeavour. But things move on just the same.

DianeB

06-06-2006, 09:12 PM

The GENERAL PUBLIC are still not interested in female fights, in fact most of the educated fans are not interested in famale fights.

Of the last 3 shows that I know of, which have been reviewed by the fans on CW & had female competitors on, commented on how much they liked the female fights. The female fighters may not be the best ticket sellers, but they add to the experience.

exposure of poor skills and fighters is simply going to destroy the opportunity for the truly talented and dedicated.

Exposure of the truly talented and dedicated female fighters would be good. UFC wouldn't be taking that much of a risk if they used well known experienced female fighters.

DianeB

06-06-2006, 09:24 PM

*bows head in shame* I've never seen any female fights (besides Quannum interclub).

However, I'd bet anything that there are some well deserving ones.

DianeB

07-06-2006, 08:45 AM

Aaron you're being extreme. Nobody is asking for top billing or an all female show. I have actually attended an all female boxing show which had positive reviews & had a packed audience, but I don't think that is the answer.

& I realise that the fans such as yourself won't go to or pay for a show specifically to see the female fight. However that doesn't mean they should be excluded, what harm would it do to have a female fight as the prelim. It doesn't have to appear on the TV or be part of the ppv. It doesn't have to be sleazy or scrappy either, it can be done.

Rosi

07-06-2006, 05:22 PM

OK then, women's fights i would like to see in the UFC, for starters:

Yuka Tsuji vs Megumi Fuji
Roxanne Modafferi vs Laura D'Auguste 2

(or me vs any of the above ;) )

The UFC has a range of abilities, while the top women might not yet be at the level of the top men, they are IMO a good deal better than some of the entry level fighters in the UFC.

Rosi

07-06-2006, 05:28 PM

(apart from there craniums are thinner and softer than mens and hence are more likely to sustain serious damage).

I suspect there's several problems with that....

1. Few injuries are to do with skull fractures - that doesn't tend to be a limiting factor in MMA.

2. You have to consider it relative to size and strength

3. Don't think there's actually that much difference

4. Even if slightly thinner, women's skulls also tend to be smaller, therefore more curvature, therefore more force required to break it.

Rosi

07-06-2006, 05:44 PM

I don't see female MMA and men's MMA as two separate things. There are fighters i like to watch, male or female, and i'll try harder to get to a show if they're fighting.

Obviously i personally have a bit more interest in a show if it has a female fight on the card. Most people though don't make a decision about which shows to attend based on any single fight, although it might tip the balance one way or the other.

As to how many female fights i've seen - i don't keep count, but I've seen a fair few live, more on video. Would like to see more, but don't get to all that many shows these days and there aren't that many female fights.

Rosi

07-06-2006, 08:07 PM

Yeah, but there are also decent guys in the UFC who are not Chuck, Fedor or Matt Hughes. Not all the fights on the card are going to have that class of fighter.

I'm not suggesting the women's fight should be top of the card, i'm not saying it should replace top names like Chuck or Fedor, and i wouldn't even moan (much) if it didn't make it to TV. I think either of the fights i suggested earlier would be a good standard for a prelim. Nobody has to pay specifically to see that one fight. Would that really be too much of a risk to take?

Rosi

07-06-2006, 10:23 PM

Ladies, who do you feel is to blame for the lack of female fights on shows? Is it the promotors for not taking the risk (but then again, why should they, its their money), is the gyms for not developing the fighters? Or is it the fighters for not developing themselves?

I think it's a bit of a chicken and egg situation. There is currently a lack of opportunity for women to compete at the highest levels (with corresponding purses), which means there is a lack of exposure, fewer women being aware of and attracted to the sport and those who are are rarely able to devote themselves to full time training because the money isn't there. Therefore there aren't as many skilled women - which in turn is cited as a reason for not giving the women opportunities on the big shows.

To get over this will require changes on both sides. Having a women's fight on the undercard of a major show wouldn't IMO be a huge risk to take, especially if it's not going out on TV. Yet it would be a huge step for female MMA, and would no doubt lead to more dedicated women in the sport and eventually a much larger talent pool.

Change is a process, and everyone needs to realise it's not going to happen overnight, but female MMA has come a long way in the last few years, and i think it's probably ready to take that next step.

DianeB

07-06-2006, 10:54 PM

Thanks for the answer Di, now, can you answer the original questions about which female fights you have seen and which were the best ,etc? Obviously you will of seen Rosi 3-4 times, maybe Carla v Cherie Buck? Any others....?

As I have already said, I haven't seen any female MMA fights. I am relatively new to the sport & was until recently a very poor student, therefore unable to attend any shows.

However, I have seen many female fighters in boxing, muay thai & kickboxing in my first time round the martial arts scene.

I will be attending more shows, especially those that have females fighting.

DianeB

07-06-2006, 11:26 PM

That's news to me. OK for the record I'd like to tag along to all future events pretty please, if I may :)

DianeB

08-06-2006, 12:51 PM

I'm sure we can find you a job to do
Lovely :D

DianeB

08-06-2006, 02:12 PM

Why don't you explain it to us all. Don't think it's gonna fall within my job description though :fingers:

Rosi

08-06-2006, 03:02 PM

Thanks for the answers, most of them appear to be things that YOU want. But you have to look at it from a promoters perspective. Lets say I was to put on another KOTC show, its an expensive affair and I have lost considerable money in the past. Now, why should I bother putting on a female fight, instead of a male fight?

Same reason you'd put on a male fight - if you have fighters who you think will put on a good fight that will interest the audience.

Of course, something to consider is that you probably already have plenty of male fights, and another one more or less won't add that much. A female fight on the other hand has the potential to stand out in terms of audience interest. Those who don't like female fights will probably just see it as an opportunity to get a drink from the bar; those who do will have an added reason to attend your show.

Rosi

08-06-2006, 04:02 PM

So you are arguing that a low level male fight is more likely to attract additional spectators than any female fight? And that ALL male fighters are more exciting to watch than any female fighters?

Well, it's an opinion, but a controversial one. Fortunately there are promoters who disagree with you. I'm sure if anyone is looking for advice on how to do it successfully, your record speaks for itself ;)

Incidentally, i think KOTC was one of the first US shows to have female fights.

Rosi

08-06-2006, 04:08 PM

OK, for the record i'm certainly not criticizing the running of the event or those behind it.

I'm just getting a little bit tired of hearing Aaron pronouncing the gospel on how to sell tickets for an MMA show....

But to keep this friendly i will apologise for the low blow.

Rosi

08-06-2006, 06:24 PM

I apologise for bringing it up. No, unfortunately, i wasn't there, much as i wanted to go i was busy with a small baby at the time and couldn't make it.

Anyhow, I'm a bit confused about your position. One minute you say you can't see a place for women's fights on a show, as you don't believe they'd be ticket sellers - then you say you were considering asking me to fight on a future event. :confused:

It's one thing playing devil's advocate, and i'm always up for a good debate, but when your counter-argument is "I don't believe having a women's fight on a show will sell tickets" or "I'm not interested in seeing women's fights on the big shows" - we're talking about your personal opinion here. So it's kinda hard to have a debate, beyond saying that i disagree.

Anyhow, let's move this on a bit.

Just thinking aloud... It may be true that the UFC's US audience don't want to see female fights, even on the undercard. If the UFC is indeed coming to the UK, do you think UK audiences might be more receptive to the idea? It could be argued that Europeans are more receptive to the idea of women fighting than the average American and female MMA appears more widely accepted within the UK MMA community than it is in the US.

DianeB

08-06-2006, 11:03 PM

If I have 8 fights on a KOTC card, the top 3-4 fights are international, the next 2-3 are domestic and the first fight is a novice up and comer... where is the space for a female fight?

Including the female fighter would be a positive move. To my knowledge, I don't know of any show where having a female fight has been anything but a bonus to the show. So best thing to do would be to stretch the card to 9, or possibly even have them as a sub because chances are one of the 8 original fights will get cancelled.

Rosi

09-06-2006, 10:28 AM

i think if joe silva saw videos of a top uk female fighter, along with documentary's to show that she is known in the public eye, he might consider having a female fight.

Of course, that would be up to the management of the fighter in question... i'm just here throwing ideas around and seeing what response they get ;)

i thought of this in response to aaron's comment to rosi that he didn't see her there - well maybe you would have if there were some female fights on"