I've heard Japanese scholars have done work in establishing the chronology of pali suttas. Is any of this available online? Ideally, one could look up a sutta by citation or sutta title, such as MN 111, or "angulimala", etc.------------------------------------------------(section below dotted line may be edited frequently to include related links and definitions)thread on mn 86 angulimala http://www.dhammawheel.com/viewtopic.php?f=29&t=16630&start=0

Since I'm pragmatic and concerned about liberation only, whenever I refer to "authentic" or "real sutta", it's with that motivation in mind. Examples of what I would consider authentic:1) some composite suttas, even if they are stitched together, as long as they're composed of "authentic" pieces, are coherent and keeping in principle with the Buddha's teaching, I would consider authentic

frank k wrote:I've heard Japanese scholars have done work in establishing the chronology of pali suttas. Is any of this available online? Ideally, one could look up a sutta by citation or sutta title, such as MN 111, or "angulimala", etc.

I don't think you have such a tool online. If it did exist, Ven Analayo would not have conceded defeat in accessing the Japanese literature, of which he does not read.

You'd probably have to trawl through every issue of the IBK (Indogaku Bunkkyogaku Kenkyu/Journal of Indian and Buddhist Studies) for all the little nuggets scattered therein. You can read them here (from Vol 34(2) onwards) -

If you refer to Nakamura's "Indian Buddhism: A Survey With Bibliographical Notes", pp.27-28, most of the IBK materials on sutta chronology are in the earlier volumes, not available in the above site. There are other journals cited by Nakamura, but I've not checked if these are online, besides the IBK.

frank k wrote:I've heard Japanese scholars have done work in establishing the chronology of pali suttas. Is any of this available online? Ideally, one could look up a sutta by citation or sutta title, such as MN 111, or "angulimala", etc.

The Japanese have done tons of work on Indian Buddhism, but very little of it is available in English.

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond.SN I, 38.

Ar scáth a chéile a mhaireas na daoine.People live in one another’s shelter.

frank k wrote:I've heard Japanese scholars have done work in establishing the chronology of pali suttas. Is any of this available online? Ideally, one could look up a sutta by citation or sutta title, such as MN 111, or "angulimala", etc.

The Japanese Numata Foundation is sponsoring the translation the Madhyama-agama to English with Analayo as the editor:

"The translation of the Madhyama-āgama, to be published as part of the Numata series, began in 2006 under the chief editorship of Marcus Bingenheimer, with Bhikkhu Anālayo and Rod Bucknell as co-editors. By now, the first volume containing translations of chapters 1 to 6 has been completed and should be coming out soon. In the meantime, due to his many other work commitments Marcus Bingenheimer has requested Bhikkhu Anālayo to take over the role of chief editor for the remaining two volumes to be translated. The present plan is to complete volume 2 (chapters 7 to 12) and volume 3 (chapters 13 to 18) by the end of 2014.

In addition to the above project, Bhikkhu Anālayo's collected papers with comparative studies of single Madhyama-āgama discourses has been published as:

When this concentration is thus developed, thus well developed by you, then wherever you go, you will go in comfort. Wherever you stand, you will stand in comfort. Wherever you sit, you will sit in comfort. Wherever you lie down, you will lie down in comfort.

Re Pande, I would just remark that when he commented on the MN, and specifically on MN 43 and MN 44, he did not seem to have done a comparative study with its Chinese parallel(s). Ven Analayo points out that MN 43 and MN 44 are very jumbled when compared with their parallels, ie it is easier to treat both suttas as one aggregated parallel to another 2 Chinese parallels that serve as another aggregated parallel. Practically all of the doctrinal propositions in the 2 Pali texts can be found in the Chinese. This lends weight to the argument that both collections probably stemmed from an earlier Ur-stock, but simply ended up being organised differently. I don't particularly agree with Pande's method, since signs of stylisation only prove when that redaction closed. It is unable to say anything on the provenance of the concepts.

Ven Analayo's Comparative Study of the MN would be a better investment than Pande, since Ven A looks at all attested primary material in Pali, Skt, Chinese, Prakrit, Tibetan. The only bits he did not translate were the Khotanese and Tocharian texts, which he does not read.

Thanks for the suggestions Sylvester. I will check out Anālayo's book. Just the little I skimmed from Pande's book, I thought some of the reasoning seemed odd. For example, rathanvinita(the sutta vism. uses for the 7 chariots representing 7 stages of purification model) , because it is a more unique sutta, Pande seemed to think that made it more likely to be authentic compared to suttas that seemed edited to conform to standard and familiar formulas. My reasoning was exactly the opposite - that the suttas that used many stock passages and formulas were that way because the arahants at the council decided they were in essence similar enough to not warrant recording and memorizing differences in detail that were not spiritually relevant.

frank k wrote:For example, rathanvinita(the sutta vism. uses for the 7 chariots representing 7 stages of purification model) , because it is a more unique sutta, Pande seemed to think that made it more likely to be authentic compared to suttas that seemed edited to conform to standard and familiar formulas.

Hi frank

I think Pande is basing this on the principle "lectio difficilior potior" - the more difficult reading is stronger. If I recall correctly, Ven Analayo also thinks MN 24 is old, given that it has at least 2 Chinese parallels, both unimaginatively titled 七車 經 - sutra on seven chariots!

The listing of 7 is probably old enough and well-known enough to have made its way into the DN 33 formalisation, but with some variation under the 9 states to be developed (with paññāvisuddhi and vimuttivisuddhi being added to the 7).