Oh dear jb...you say a 30 something will treat a 15 yr old better than another 15yr old? Thing is that in our society 15yr olds are supposed to learn from each other...not elders.I see your point, I really do, I had a best friend who thought the same way. But he was gay and thought it about 15yr old boys. Better to be treated gently by an older wiser dude. well the sentiment might be nice, but it is not really considering the teenager. Even though you might think it is.

I posted a detailed explanation of why I believed it, and you simply state that I'm wrong without demonstrating why.

How is this a quick fix? It's not like if you rounded up and killed all the pedophiles that there would never be any more in the future. That's not how it works. Just as there have always and will always be gays, there have always and will always be pedophiles.

Another thing I want to say on this topic. My son is friends with a convicted sex offender. My son is 20, his friend is 24 and was found with underage porn on his computer. My son has told me of his friend's desires...not for children but for just underage...like 14 15.Now this boy...I consider 24 to be a boy...is getting no help whatsoever. My son tells me how this boy self harms to get into hospital, they let him out the next day. No follow up.I am appalled that society just ignores these people. My son has more care for this boy than any health services...it is wrong wrong wrong.kill these people? Ok such a quick fix. I understand that pedophiles severely hurt people. I also understand that if they got help a bit younger...they might be able to overcome their issues.

The government doesn't want to help them, it doesn't care about protecting children. The government wants to put them in prison to make money. Private prisons charge the taxpayers more than twice what the state-run facilities do, and the profits go into the pockets of the shareholders. Who are the biggest shareholders? Why, the retirement funds of our lawmakers of course! Why do you think the US has more people in prison per capita than any other country, including China or North Korea? Why do you think the government is still fighting a war on drugs? And yes, why do you think they put people in jail for sexual drawings or stories about children, even when there is no actual child victim? Putting people behind bars puts money in the pockets of our leaders.

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"Do you see a problem with insisting that the normal ways in which you determine fact from fiction is something you have to turn off in order to maintain the belief in God?" - JeffPT

Quesi is suggesting that those of us who experience a sexual attraction to such an image likely fit the description she gave. Very teling about whom? Well, about the audience who's attracted, of course.

As a man who experienced involuntary sexual arousal upon viewing that image, I take Quesi's post to mean that I am a dominating, shallow partner who doesn't give a rat's ass about how his partner feels.

No shots but that photo is on some Sports Illustrated for Kids Swimsuit Edition shit though.

He is much more likely to use a condom or other form of contraception. He isn't going to leave her right after sex, because he wants a relationship. If he does get her pregnant he is in a better position to be a father, both emotionally and financially.

Wait, what?

How many thirty something year old men are actually interested in actually pursuing a serious relationship with a 15 year old though? And even if they actually were interested in that, wouldn't they have more incentive to hide or to minimize the relationship than a younger man? After all, no one's going to say that two fifteen year olds aren't age appropriate partners. And they probably (but not always) will keep law enforcement out of that.

These are broad generalizations, but I would certainly say the average 30-something man is more stable, patient, caring, and mature than the average 15 year old boy.

But would that be true of the average thirty something that's actually interested in pursuing a 15 year old? I mean, honestly I think I understand why men might be physically attracted to very young girls. But dude, I know 15 year old girls. And honestly, my take is that if you're trying to be with one of them on some boyfriend shit, as a grown man, you're probably pretty damn immature....or you're trying to exploit the sort of power dynamic that Quesi was alluding to. Or both.

I mean, I guess I can almost understand where you're coming from in that young men can be kind of terrible. And I speak from experience, being one of those formerly terrible young men. So there's that.

Quesi, you never addressed my own post. How am I to take your comment on my own sexuality and attitudes toward my female partners? Should I give you my girlfriend's E-mail, so that you might better inform her of what kind of partner I am?

After all, no one's going to say that two fifteen year olds aren't age appropriate partners.

I just said that I don't think they are. For the same reason that children should have an adult with them in the car while they're learning to drive, I think teenagers shouldn't be experimenting with sex with each other. That's like the blind leading the blind.

But would that be true of the average thirty something that's actually interested in pursuing a 15 year old? I mean, honestly I think I understand why men might be physically attracted to very young girls. But dude, I know 15 year old girls. And honestly, my take is that if you're trying to be with one of them on some boyfriend shit, as a grown man, you're probably pretty damn immature....or you're trying to exploit the sort of power dynamic that Quesi was alluding to. Or both.

Not every teenager is an immature idiot. Especially the farther you get from the United States and England. I know some very grown up teenagers and I know some very childish adults. The youngest girl I ever dated (16) was far more mature and responsible than my current 27 year old wife.

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"Do you see a problem with insisting that the normal ways in which you determine fact from fiction is something you have to turn off in order to maintain the belief in God?" - JeffPT

Quesi, you never addressed my own post. How am I to take your comment on my own sexuality and attitudes toward my female partners? Should I give you my girlfriend's E-mail, so that you might better inform her of what kind of partner I am?

As I stated in my post this morning, I think that many men are socialized to misread women's cues, and I consider images like the one in the photo the joe posted to be an example of the sorts of images that lead to that socialization. I personally would not be interested in a man who was turned on by that sort of image, because I think that it is a sign of that type of socialization. But perhaps I put more emphasis than most on issues of power equity.

But I think your gf would be better served by joining the forum!

I have a little girl who desperately wants to go to the Hall of Science, and I apologize for a quick and sloppy response. I will be back to this thread later.

Teenage boys are going to lie, cheat, and steal their way into the girls' panties, rush her into sex before she's ready, have sex without a condom, get the girl pregnant and be unable to care for the baby, that is if they even stick around long enough to see it born.

A 30-something man is much more responsible and grounded. He is emotionally secure enough that he doesn't need to lie his way into her bed. He is patient, willing to take it slow. He is much more likely to use a condom or other form of contraception. He isn't going to leave her right after sex, because he wants a relationship. If he does get her pregnant he is in a better position to be a father, both emotionally and financially.

Not necessarily true. A 30-something man can be exactly like that 15 year old boy. A 30-something man might with to take advantage of a young girl in a vulnerable position and may even lie, cheat and steal his way in, he might not be interested in her consent, he might just want to manipulate her sexuality so he can have sex with her. 30-something men can be horrible people. 15 year old boys can be a lot more respectful, kind hearted and mature than you give them credit for.

I wouldn't try and stroke people with the same brush. As I'm sure you don't like it that paedophiles are all painted with the same brush - people who take advantage of innocent kids.

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“It is difficult to understand the universe if you only study one planet” - Miyamoto MusashiWarning: I occassionally forget to proofread my posts to spot typos or to spot poor editing.

I don't think there should be a child porn industry, it would be taking advantage of children and even if possession is legalised, it just means they're legalising the market for it.

I agree 100%.

Just to play Devil's Advocate here, how do you feel about films that are created purely with CGI (no human actors)?

Well i personally have no problem with that as kids aren't being used. I personally am disgusted at the idea of kids being sexually assualted or used as sexual gradification. CGI does not do harm i think.

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Me:What are you looking at Eminem?Brother: Nothing, Harry Potter.

I love to read books, just not your Bible. i support gay rights and women's rights. Why? Because i'm tired of the hate, stupidity, and your desire to control us all and make up lies.

How common was this type of age disparity before modern marriage age of consent laws? How many would pursue it if it weren't illegal?

Exceedingly common. Though I'm not sure that I want to take my cues on sexuality or gender roles more broadly based on what dudes were doing prior to the sexual revolution in this country. As a man, I'm not trying to dominate my woman like that, regardless of her age. Patriarchy is not what's really good.

I just said that I don't think they are. For the same reason that children should have an adult with them in the car while they're learning to drive, I think teenagers shouldn't be experimenting with sex with each other. That's like the blind leading the blind.

Wait, what?

I think you just articulated why a relationship between an adult and a child of that sort is a terrible, no good, very bad idea. Children look to adults as authority figures, as experts in the world that they are just begining to learn to find their place in. Just as a child learning to drive would assume that they are being taught the norms of driving, a child learning about sex from an adult would assume that they are being taught the norms of sexuality and of sexual relationships. I just find it hard to conceive of such a relationship being non-exploitative. But maybe that's my issue?

Not every teenager is an immature idiot. Especially the farther you get from the United States and England. I know some very grown up teenagers and I know some very childish adults. The youngest girl I ever dated (16) was far more mature and responsible than my current 27 year old wife.

I never said that teenagers were immature idiots. I said that they're immature. They are. They're teenagers. They're by definition immature. I think I should also note that I find it hilarious that you are very quick to appeal to US standards or to the feelings or behavior "average" US citizen when it suits you, but you are just as quick to throw them aside when it contradicts your argument.

But you complained about to the Chinese customs treating you as a paedophile over your pornography, and now you're happily announcing to the world (including the Chinese authorities, who are already aware of you) that in fact you are a paedophile.

That doesn't seem very clever to me...

Uh, no. I said it was US border control who seized my equipment. It was the DHS that told everyone I was a pedophile. I was returning from China.

Ah right; you said it happened when you went "home", and I thought your home was somewhere in SE Asia. Further confusion when you I asked you whether you were referring to Vietnam as your home, and you replied no, you were referring to China.

Anyway, you meant the US. OK. So I'm amazed at the behaviour of the DHS. If they didn't have any evidence to charge you with a crime, then how can they justify contacting your friends and acquaintances and spreading serious allegations about you? Isn't that a law against that?

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I didn't have time to fully answer your "Why are you doing this?" question last night, my wife was dragging me to bed. Now that I have a minute I should explain.

First, I'm not ashamed of something I had no choice in and can't change. That would be just a stupid waste of time.

i'm not saying you should be ashamed.

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Second, I haven't admitted to any illegal activity.

Hmm... which immediately suggests the question of whether you've committed any illegal activity. You have said that you don't think that "laws are always right or should be blindly followed".

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Third, regarding my career, nobody does background checks before hiring a photographer, and I doubt my clients (foreign editions of men's fashion magazines mostly) read this website and even if they did, I doubt they would care.

Well, why don't you look at it from the perspective of a young model's parents?

If I had a 13-year-old daughter taking her first steps in a modelling career, I wouldn't want her to spend any time with a self-confessed 'paedophile' photographer who would be happy to seduce her if he could. And I wouldn't want her to sign with any agency which knowingly employed such a photographer.

I never said I'd seduce a 13 year old if I could. Find her attractive? Sure. Fantasize about it? Sure. But I wouldn't do anything that I felt would harm her or that I thought she couldn't fully comprehend and consent to.

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"Do you see a problem with insisting that the normal ways in which you determine fact from fiction is something you have to turn off in order to maintain the belief in God?" - JeffPT

the problem i find about pedophilia is that it makes it unlikely to have a good, decent relationship. What about those who goes for this one child or preteen and then later goes to another after they grew up? Also, i feel that the sexual act between a child and an adult would mess the child's mind. What pisses me off is those who use pedophilia in comparison to homosexuality or to say that they, gays and lesbians, are pedophiles. As i've made a post about it before, homosexuality is between the same sex couples who are of age and can develope a loving relationship. The only harms that can come from it is no different from that of heterosexual couples. I'm not sure how an adult can develop a Romantic or sexual relationship with a preteen or a child.

« Last Edit: June 09, 2012, 12:21:42 PM by Timtheskeptic »

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Me:What are you looking at Eminem?Brother: Nothing, Harry Potter.

I love to read books, just not your Bible. i support gay rights and women's rights. Why? Because i'm tired of the hate, stupidity, and your desire to control us all and make up lies.

8 and 9 year olds are most certainly not ready to negotiate the world of adult sexual interactions, in spite of the fact that they might have budding breasts and a little public hair and perhaps even menstruation. Nor are 13 year olds. Or 15 year olds.

I think this is cultural bias on your part, Quesi.

The age of consent in Sweden, Denmark and France is 15.In Germany, Austria and Italy, 14.Spain, 13.

Are you saying that all these countries have got it wrong?

I'd also point out that in Denmark and Sweden 15-year-olds can marry (with parental or court consent). And become parents, if they want to. Are the authorities wrong to allow this?

So there are many people who disagree with your assertions - unless of course you were referring to Americans only.

Gnu.

PS I'd also like to say that I agree with the point that Azdgari is making. Your deconstruction of Joe's photo drew various conclusions about anyone who found that girl sexually attractive. That's what Azd is complaining about, and you haven't really addressed his point (actually, you don't seem to understand his point).

Nah, the comparison is there. The similarity is that, whatever the prevailing view of society is, they feel the way that they feel regardless. We're talking about sexual orientation and not some decision that one can make consciously. I think that the difference is that there is a good reason for pedophiles not to act on their impulses, reasons that most pedophiles would acknowledge as valid, while there isn't a good reason for homosexuals not act on their impulses...unless they also like younger boys.

Also, it's important to recognize that the definition of child is not one that has been hard and fast over the course of human history. I mean, am I the only one that was watching Game of Thrones and feeling bad for Sansa because it was discovered that she was menstruating? She's a woman now! I don't know where you people are getting your history from.

ok i will do exactly that. firstly i was molested when i was young by two different people who i dony even know and secondly bc its just wrong to do that shit to kids.

Well first,you have to distinguish the people involved by what they do:

1) a person "attracted to children" who has never done anything illegal

2) A person who obtains child porn but has never direct,y hsrmed a kid

3) a person who actively seeks and pays for child porn.

4) a person who molests a child by touching

5) a rapist

6) a person ho produces child porn and or profits from it

6) a rapist/murderer of children

In my opinion, level 6 deserves the death penalty.

Other than that, the more severe the crime, the worse the punishment. I would want a way where all of the classes except class 1 were denied jobs with access to children.

Class 1, amounts to thought crime.

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"i had learn to focus i what i could do rather what i couldn't do", Rick Hansen when asked about getting a disabling spinal cord injury at 15. He continues to raise money for spinal cord research and inspire peoople to "make a difference". He doesnt preach any religion.

I don't think there should be a child porn industry, it would be taking advantage of children and even if possession is legalised, it just means they're legalising the market for it.

I agree 100%.

Just to play Devil's Advocate here, how do you feel about films that are created purely with CGI (no human actors)?

This sounds dicey to me. one can argue it encourages child rape and thus say it should be illegal but i dont know.

In canada we had nonerotic art depicting child rape that had an intent to express the exytence of the problem.

I think, the person who produced the srt was sincere or i assume so.

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"i had learn to focus i what i could do rather what i couldn't do", Rick Hansen when asked about getting a disabling spinal cord injury at 15. He continues to raise money for spinal cord research and inspire peoople to "make a difference". He doesnt preach any religion.

PS I'd also like to say that I agree with the point that Azdgari is making. Your deconstruction of Joe's photo drew various conclusions about anyone who found that girl sexually attractive. That's what Azd is complaining about, and you haven't really addressed his point (actually, you don't seem to understand his point).

Thanks, Gnu. The irony is that I'm strongly feminist, politically, and that the characterization Quesi gave would draw reactions ranging from puzzled stares to outright laughter from those I know, especially among those who are a part of the womens' issues groups at my university.

I think that she is a very pretty young girl, who is intentionally posed in an unnatural position that contorts her and makes her look powerless. The pose is designed to make it unclear if she is wearing bathing suit bottoms or not. She was instructed to part her lips (so as to appear longing) and to lower her face and raise her eyes in a submissive pose. She is wearing a wet bathing white bathing suit top (which looks suspiciously like a wet training bra) in spite of the fact that her long hair surrounding the suit is dry, adding to the false and contrived nature of the photo.

I can understand wby the photo in question disturbs you.

The photogrspher in question sounds unethical at the very least and the parents must be nuts.

That said, it doesnt sound like child porn. The fact that a pedophile might get off on it doesnt make it porn.

I have no clue how the laws can deal with casesnlike this withiut also labeling non sexual things that others sexualize as being porn too.

Several of your assertions were a bit excessive, "she was acting submissive, parting her lips, etc, etc". People do these things and it is up to the beholder whether or not to sexualize them.

By your views, a show aimed at teens like Degrassi, discussing issues lke teen aged pregnancy would also be child porn. A swim meet could be child porn

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"i had learn to focus i what i could do rather what i couldn't do", Rick Hansen when asked about getting a disabling spinal cord injury at 15. He continues to raise money for spinal cord research and inspire peoople to "make a difference". He doesnt preach any religion.

A 30-something man is much more responsible and grounded. He is emotionally secure enough that he doesn't need to lie his way into her bed. He is patient, willing to take it slow. He is much more likely to use a condom or other form of contraception. He isn't going to leave her right after sex, because he wants a relationship. If he does get her pregnant he is in a better position to be a father, both emotionally and financially.

These are broad generalizations, but I would certainly say the average 30-something man is more stable, patient, caring, and mature than the average 15 year old boy.

The average 30 year old man doesnt seduce 15 year olds. It is not like one cannot find "young lookiing" adults who are actually legal. I mean, if there are 15 year olds who "look 18", probably the converse is true.

If the 30 old had self control, was mature, responsible, he woujld be chasing somebody who is legal.

It is not ok for another 15 year old to seduce a 15 year old, it is just that you casnt really stop it without becoming draconian.

In our society, a 15 year old is best focused on education

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"i had learn to focus i what i could do rather what i couldn't do", Rick Hansen when asked about getting a disabling spinal cord injury at 15. He continues to raise money for spinal cord research and inspire peoople to "make a difference". He doesnt preach any religion.

If the 30 old had self control, was mature, responsible, he woujld be chasing somebody who is legal.

rickymooston, I want you to really think about what pedophilia is, and why "self-control" or "maturity" or "responsibility" would allow/force someone to be sexually attracted to someone else.

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The truth is absolute. Life forms are specks of specks (...) of specks of dust in the universe.Why settle for normal, when you can be so much more? Why settle for something, when you can have everything?We choose our own gods.

First of all, I would like to apologize to anyone who was offended by the content of the third paragraph in my original post on this thread. Human sexuality is a complex reality, and I believe that my profile of “who” the photo would appeal to was an over simplification. It was not my intention to offend the heterosexual men on this forum who were simply aroused by the pretty girl in the photo.

I stand by every other word in the post. (which was reply #72) and I challenge anyone to find any inaccuracies in my observations. Other than one small typo.

I also stand by my statements in post number #88.

Like to look at sexy pictures of beautiful women? Do you think that the pictures that you like to look at represent real, beautiful female sexuality?

Here is a little test that you can conduct yourself if you are unsure if the pose is really sexy, or some contrived male misconception of a woman’s sexuality. Imagine yourself in that pose. (Make appropriate adjustments for male anatomy.) Then ask yourself, would you, could you, feel sexy in that physical position? If the answer is no, it is pretty safe to assume that the woman doesn’t feel sexy in that position either, and that this is not an accurate portrait of female sexuality. You’ve probably been duped.

The photogrspher in question sounds unethical at the very least and the parents must be nuts.

You're only saying that because of her comments. If you had seen the same photo on a coworkers Facebook page with the title "our daughter by the pool in Disneyland" you would have thought nothing bad about it.

I think that she is a very pretty young girl, who is intentionally posed in an unnatural position that contorts her and makes her look powerless. The pose is designed to make it unclear if she is wearing bathing suit bottoms or not. She was instructed to part her lips (so as to appear longing) and to lower her face and raise her eyes in a submissive pose. She is wearing a wet bathing white bathing suit top (which looks suspiciously like a wet training bra) in spite of the fact that her long hair surrounding the suit is dry, adding to the false and contrived nature of the photo.

Notice the harsh highlights in her hair and shoulders? Where is the sun? Almost directly overhead and to her left. Her head is dipped down and slightly to the right to shade her eyes, not to 'make her look powerless'.

Her bathing suit bottoms are clearly visible. If the photographer didn't want them to be seen you wouldn't see them.

Instructed to part her lips? Yes, her lips are parted, and slightly raised at the corners, and her teeth are showing. I think there's a word for it. Oh yes, a 'smile'. And what kind of sick bastard would ask someone to smile before taking her picture? Oh yeah, everybody.

Her eyebrows are not raised. She is Asian, her eyelid lacks a double fold and her eyes are not set as deep in their sockets as other races, this gives the appearance of a greater distance between the eye and the eyebrow.

She is wearing a white bikini which looks no more like a bra than it should.

Her suit and legs are wet because she has been in the pool. Her hair is not wet because she didn't want it to get wet, as many girls wouldn't for various reasons including not wanting to get water in their ears, eyes, or mouth, or not wanting to have to wash their hair or not wanting to damage their hair with the harsh chemicals in the pool.

You saw what you wanted to see because of the context, and you also completely missed the point. You're focusing on the pose, but that's irrelevant. I wasn't asking for a critique of the photo. I was asking the straight men if they found the girl sexually attractive. But you shamed the men into submission and now they won't admit it.

You said any man who liked it "wants control over a submissive woman and has no interest in knowing anything about who she is and what she thinks and what she longs for." Do you understand that almost every straight man would find her sexually attractive? That was my point in posting the photo.

I'm sure you find Penthouse and Playboy offensive too, but you should realize that those magazines aren't made for you. While you're certainly welcome to have an opinion, have the good sense to understand that there are times when yours isn't the opinion being asked for.

« Last Edit: June 10, 2012, 12:17:01 AM by joebbowers »

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"Do you see a problem with insisting that the normal ways in which you determine fact from fiction is something you have to turn off in order to maintain the belief in God?" - JeffPT

You're only saying that because of her comments. If you had seen the same photo on a coworkers Facebook page with the title "our daughter by the pool in Disneyland" you would have thought nothing bad about it.

Why do you keep saying this? The context in which this photo was posted was never "our daughter by the pool." Whether or not Quesi put her two cents in, the context in which this photo was posted was you asking whether or not we men folk found that girl to be sexually attractive.

I think you make some fair points Quesi, though I'm not sure I agree with all of them. I think the girl in the photo is good-looking, I don't think her pose or position would matter or what she was wearing, just for the simple case that I can tell from the image that she's a looking girl. Would I have a sexual fantasy about her? I wouldn't. Would I want sex with her? Well, she looks like she might be a mature 14 year old, so in that respect, that's a no, if that didn't matter, it would still be a no, even if she was begging for it. The reason, because I am not attracted to women simply for sex, I'm more interesting in companionship. Yes, I would refuse a one-night stand. I don't think badly of anybody who has one night stands, because usually it's what both parties want, sex with somebody they think is attractive.

Does the image represent her sexuality? Probably not. We don't know this girl and we don't know what she's like. Does it represent the sexuality of those who think she looks attractive? I think only as far as finding women, like her, attractive is the extent it shows their sexuality, for what you've read into the photo, I don't think we could use the photo to determine that about a person. I reckon if she was completely clothed and didn't look as submissive I'd still she looks good. Those things you mentioned might appeal to some people who view the photo. If the photography purposefully captured her in that way, then you might be able to draw some information on his sexuality.

Whilst the girl on the surface is attractive and would have appealed to 14 year old Sepp, but we can only see what she's like on the surface and of course, as you rightly say, we know nothing about her sexuality. The way in which she has been presented may fuel somebody' sexual fantasy, where the fantasise about her sexuality, but I don't think every man who thinks she 'looks' attractive means they've done exactly that. One can find somebody looks attractive without being attracted.

I should also mention the type of women I'm most attracted to. Strong independent women, those with a bit of wit, are kind hearted and interesting, being a geek is a bonus. In terms of appearance, I would not say it's the most important thing, but it is a factor, whilst I wouldn't be seeking for the 'sexiest' person I can find, I'll be honest and say that I wouldn't go out on a date with Susan Boyle. I don't know what she's like as a person, but I don't think I would be attracted to her. I am sure there are men out there who would, probably men in her age group.

And I think beauty is in the eye of the beholder, in fact, many women men say are really attractive I think look horrible, I might even use the phrase 'grotesque', I simply would not find them attractive. Usually it's women who tart themselves up and try to make themselves attractive for the attention of men. If a woman has had a boob job, I doubt I'd be attracted to her either.

Also, on your note about the signals of women, I think you are quite right. I've spent a lot of time around women and not as some sort of uber-pimp, I just get along with them easily. Generally these things people are taking to be signals - even things I might at first see as being a signal are not, it's just them being nice, friendly or polite. I have a friend who is constantly bothered by guys, asking her out and even doing some rather creepy things and all she's ever doing is trying to be friendly and make friends, she doesn't want to go out with any of them. But usually when a woman is interested in you, people tend to take it as being more than a 'friendly' interest, when it's just friend making.