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Twenty-Something

TheSecondLex wrote:IMHO, Ari, the shortcomings everyone's talking about, pace etc, are Hitchy's doing. And probably Bendis', insofar as he seems to be writing or padding it to Hitch's talents--think Hush, as Loeb was writing that mostly around Jim Lee's sensibilities.

Yes, it's been four issues of padding and plodding along through Ultron World--but I rather think this is a conscious effort to show just how wrecked this society really is. How different this crossover is. In ways that Civil War, Wanda's period (yes, that's Team Lex's super-adult term for House of M), Hulk's rampage, the Skrulls and oh by the way Norman Osborn...just couldn't do. Here comes the worst enemy the Avengers have ever faced or ever will (because Ultron is eternal), and he destroys their buildings, their institutions and their souls. Overnight.

It completely blows 'Ultron Unlimited' out of the water, it almost eclipses 'Annihilation Conquest' (almost), and it's even getting into what could be a really top-flight examination of Henry Pym and Ultron--a hero/villain dynamic/opposition/hatred that itself can stand (in the hands of the right writer) up with Reed and Doom, and Xavier and Magneto, and Squirrel Girl and Doom, and Billy Kaplan vs the Westboro Baptist Church (now wouldn't that be a story?)

Not just some Frankenstein metaphor, their relationship; not even some father-son/Cats in the Cradle dynamic--because those stories that have touched on Ultron-as-Boris Karloff have always I think missed some point of both Ultron and Pym. Bendis tells you straight out: Ultron hates humanity. And it has returned. He doesn't want a bride, he doesn't want to take over Iron Man's armor, he doesn't even want to be Pym. Maybe he did once but I think those days are gone now. I think fo him like Dean Stockwell in Battlestar Galactica: he was created by humans and with human emotions and instincts; except for the adamanitum shell he is human. And he doesn't want that. He'll never be fully machine, bound as he is by programme and Pym and that most human emotion of all, vengeance. And still, he hates mankind. Pym included.

It's such a simple premise that its easy to overlook it or pay it lip service. Nowadays Ultron just wants to kill. Everything.

That's amazing to read about, and so un-comic booky; there's always a plan, always some scheme, always an endgame in mind.

Frankly, I'd be happy if they got to the future, faced Ultron and he told them right out: I'm going to kill you and wipe out this universe and that'll be that. No grand fight to the finish, no speeches, no words with thee. Just a whooooole buncha killin!

So yes, there are pacing problems. Yes Wolverine is a pharisaical asshat (b/c when even Bendis acknowledges this, something must be very right with the universe). But there's also an amazing sense of finality going here--that I'd bet my ridiculous salary is going to be resolved via time-travel. In other words, its an unusual story and for all the sense that it comes of nowhere, or a vacuum, it seems to be making repercussions for itself. Killing Cage and Shulkie for two, and telling us that big names like Thor, Ben Grimm and Banner are out of the game too.

It's just very interesting to read. Knowing as I do that I'm in the minority of AU-enjoying fans, it's even more interesting bc of that. I shall be very curious to see where it all ends up.

And to see if my theory is right about where he's keeping Pymmie.

Wanda's period... sounds like a very sticky saga.

And speaking about Ultron, what did you think of the Busiek / Pérez Ultron arc from some years ago?

Wait a minute... are the Young Avengers there?

Now I don't think you're in the minority. AoU has good sales so lots of people are reading it.

You sure make it sound like a great read, mayhap I should fetch a compiled edition after all is said and done.

So you stayed away from Millar's FF but at least tell me you read Ultimates.

Twenty-Something

TheSecondLex wrote:IMHO, Ari, the shortcomings everyone's talking about, pace etc, are Hitchy's doing. And probably Bendis', insofar as he seems to be writing or padding it to Hitch's talents--think Hush, as Loeb was writing that mostly around Jim Lee's sensibilities.

Yes, it's been four issues of padding and plodding along through Ultron World--but I rather think this is a conscious effort to show just how wrecked this society really is. How different this crossover is. In ways that Civil War, Wanda's period (yes, that's Team Lex's super-adult term for House of M), Hulk's rampage, the Skrulls and oh by the way Norman Osborn...just couldn't do. Here comes the worst enemy the Avengers have ever faced or ever will (because Ultron is eternal), and he destroys their buildings, their institutions and their souls. Overnight.

It completely blows 'Ultron Unlimited' out of the water, it almost eclipses 'Annihilation Conquest' (almost), and it's even getting into what could be a really top-flight examination of Henry Pym and Ultron--a hero/villain dynamic/opposition/hatred that itself can stand (in the hands of the right writer) up with Reed and Doom, and Xavier and Magneto, and Squirrel Girl and Doom, and Billy Kaplan vs the Westboro Baptist Church (now wouldn't that be a story?)

Not just some Frankenstein metaphor, their relationship; not even some father-son/Cats in the Cradle dynamic--because those stories that have touched on Ultron-as-Boris Karloff have always I think missed some point of both Ultron and Pym. Bendis tells you straight out: Ultron hates humanity. And it has returned. He doesn't want a bride, he doesn't want to take over Iron Man's armor, he doesn't even want to be Pym. Maybe he did once but I think those days are gone now. I think fo him like Dean Stockwell in Battlestar Galactica: he was created by humans and with human emotions and instincts; except for the adamanitum shell he is human. And he doesn't want that. He'll never be fully machine, bound as he is by programme and Pym and that most human emotion of all, vengeance. And still, he hates mankind. Pym included.

It's such a simple premise that its easy to overlook it or pay it lip service. Nowadays Ultron just wants to kill. Everything.

That's amazing to read about, and so un-comic booky; there's always a plan, always some scheme, always an endgame in mind.

Frankly, I'd be happy if they got to the future, faced Ultron and he told them right out: I'm going to kill you and wipe out this universe and that'll be that. No grand fight to the finish, no speeches, no words with thee. Just a whooooole buncha killin!

So yes, there are pacing problems. Yes Wolverine is a pharisaical asshat (b/c when even Bendis acknowledges this, something must be very right with the universe). But there's also an amazing sense of finality going here--that I'd bet my ridiculous salary is going to be resolved via time-travel. In other words, its an unusual story and for all the sense that it comes of nowhere, or a vacuum, it seems to be making repercussions for itself. Killing Cage and Shulkie for two, and telling us that big names like Thor, Ben Grimm and Banner are out of the game too.

It's just very interesting to read. Knowing as I do that I'm in the minority of AU-enjoying fans, it's even more interesting bc of that. I shall be very curious to see where it all ends up.

And to see if my theory is right about where he's keeping Pymmie.

Wanda's period... sounds like a very sticky saga.

And speaking about Ultron, what did you think of the Busiek / Pérez Ultron arc from some years ago?

Wait a minute... are the Young Avengers there?

Now I don't think you're in the minority. AoU has good sales so lots of people are reading it.

You sure make it sound like a great read, mayhap I should fetch a compiled edition after all is said and done.

So you stayed away from Millar's FF but at least tell me you read Ultimates.

And no, the Young Avengers aren't there; they're having way too much awesomeness over in their own book, which if you're not reading you totally should. For science and stuff![/quote]

Well, AoU hasn't finished, usually you get disappointment at the end of a story, rarely at the beginning (unless it's so bad that not even the beginning is good). Once it's over, tell me how it compares to the Busiek / Pérez story.

I will not crucify you. But... just OK? Ultimates is one of the best things from Marvel in the past 20 years.

And no, the Young Avengers aren't there; they're having way too much awesomeness over in their own book, which if you're not reading you totally should. For science and stuff![/quote]

Well, AoU hasn't finished, usually you get disappointment at the end of a story, rarely at the beginning (unless it's so bad that not even the beginning is good). Once it's over, tell me how it compares to the Busiek / Pérez story.

I will not crucify you. But... just OK? Ultimates is one of the best things from Marvel in the past 20 years.

cheese

I do gay-love YA, Ari, gosh (although frankly I think Billy could do a lot better but whatever).

ALSO: My usual plug here for Daredevil End of Days.

If there's a Bendis book you're not reading (by my count, he's got five on the shelves at any given time: this, Ultimate Comics Spider-Man, All-New X-Men, AU, and Guardians) don't let it be Daredevil: End of Days.

Pick this shit up, seriously. It is the most masterful love letter to Frank Miller that anyone could produce. Not just to his DD run, but to his entire body of work. DD, Batman, Martha. Everything. It also reads like a continuation of Bendis' own run on Matt Murdock, what seems now like ages ago. There just aren't comics--more precisely, there aren't stories like this--anymore. Everything's all wrapped up in event comics and associated tropes.

It's wildly different from and better than Age of Ultron. Both are typical Bendis, but one hews closer to big questions which the medium is and always has been ill-equipped to answer. Two opposing views of Bendis here.

One story gets at heroic legacies and implications: what are the limits to your pain (think Dark Knight Rises) and how do or can you continue? What's your legacy going to be? How do you pass that on, and how do you do it in a way that's both responsible to the intended heir and responsible to the world you're going to leave behind? What kind of world is it that gets handed down? Is it worth legacy, or should identities die with us? What is a real hero, especially in the Craptastic World we call the Marvel Universe? Most importantly, and I think this is the biggest question that both AU and End of Days are posing is this: what does the future look like? And can (or how do) we control it?

I think these are some, but not all, of the questions DD: End of Days brings up. I think they're unanswerable--again about the medium being ill-equipped to deal with heady ideas like this when its presentation insists on fist and fighting. Not a complaint; just an observation.

The other is Age of Ultron, where in addition to the doomsday scenario, you get a straightforward, somewhat hamhanded attempt at Hitler's Time Travel Exemption Act. And yet beyond that, Bendis is getting at something truly brilliant regarding Pym and Ultron and the Wolverine intersection: what does it really mean to create? (A question Hickman's Fantastic Four also got into and his New Avengers is readdressing by pieces)? What are the limits, ethical or otherwise, of creation? Does (let's call it) open-source existence or sentience create an onus of responsibility on the creator, and if so, what and how and why? Where does correction or over-correction begin and where does it end? Who makes the rules, and who decides who gets to live?

Apparently Wolverine does, or is, or will, in AU. In End of Days, its a harder gamble. Funny thing about dystopian future stories: they're naturally shitty, really. That's what dystopia is, after all, but there's more I think. Because bad worlds can be replaced. With better ones. A world without Pym might not be worth it, but a world without Ultron, now wouldn't that be something? A world without Matt Murdock turns into a shithole very fast indeed, though through a confluence of factors, but it's not entirely bad. Because there's a new future there. And someone in the red suit working to make it better by pieces. Hidden optimism, from a somewhat overlooked foundation of the Marvel Universe.

Sorry to rant.

Go pick up Daredevil End of Days now or preorder the oversized HC from Amazon (the OH gets credit for the sale if you click through the website!). You'll be glad for it.

cheese

I do gay-love YA, Ari, gosh (although frankly I think Billy could do a lot better but whatever).

ALSO: My usual plug here for Daredevil End of Days.

If there's a Bendis book you're not reading (by my count, he's got five on the shelves at any given time: this, Ultimate Comics Spider-Man, All-New X-Men, AU, and Guardians) don't let it be Daredevil: End of Days.

Pick this shit up, seriously. It is the most masterful love letter to Frank Miller that anyone could produce. Not just to his DD run, but to his entire body of work. DD, Batman, Martha. Everything. It also reads like a continuation of Bendis' own run on Matt Murdock, what seems now like ages ago. There just aren't comics--more precisely, there aren't stories like this--anymore. Everything's all wrapped up in event comics and associated tropes.

It's wildly different from and better than Age of Ultron. Both are typical Bendis, but one hews closer to big questions which the medium is and always has been ill-equipped to answer. Two opposing views of Bendis here.

One story gets at heroic legacies and implications: what are the limits to your pain (think Dark Knight Rises) and how do or can you continue? What's your legacy going to be? How do you pass that on, and how do you do it in a way that's both responsible to the intended heir and responsible to the world you're going to leave behind? What kind of world is it that gets handed down? Is it worth legacy, or should identities die with us? What is a real hero, especially in the Craptastic World we call the Marvel Universe? Most importantly, and I think this is the biggest question that both AU and End of Days are posing is this: what does the future look like? And can (or how do) we control it?

I think these are some, but not all, of the questions DD: End of Days brings up. I think they're unanswerable--again about the medium being ill-equipped to deal with heady ideas like this when its presentation insists on fist and fighting. Not a complaint; just an observation.

The other is Age of Ultron, where in addition to the doomsday scenario, you get a straightforward, somewhat hamhanded attempt at Hitler's Time Travel Exemption Act. And yet beyond that, Bendis is getting at something truly brilliant regarding Pym and Ultron and the Wolverine intersection: what does it really mean to create? (A question Hickman's Fantastic Four also got into and his New Avengers is readdressing by pieces)? What are the limits, ethical or otherwise, of creation? Does (let's call it) open-source existence or sentience create an onus of responsibility on the creator, and if so, what and how and why? Where does correction or over-correction begin and where does it end? Who makes the rules, and who decides who gets to live?

Apparently Wolverine does, or is, or will, in AU. In End of Days, its a harder gamble. Funny thing about dystopian future stories: they're naturally shitty, really. That's what dystopia is, after all, but there's more I think. Because bad worlds can be replaced. With better ones. A world without Pym might not be worth it, but a world without Ultron, now wouldn't that be something? A world without Matt Murdock turns into a shithole very fast indeed, though through a confluence of factors, but it's not entirely bad. Because there's a new future there. And someone in the red suit working to make it better by pieces. Hidden optimism, from a somewhat overlooked foundation of the Marvel Universe.

Sorry to rant.

Go pick up Daredevil End of Days now or preorder the oversized HC from Amazon (the OH gets credit for the sale if you click through the website!). You'll be glad for it.

vinnypic wrote:War is necessary. Cops are necessary. One is a necessary evil. one is a necessary force of good. failure to grasp that distinction means you're a high functioning retard.

Twenty-Something

TheSecondLex wrote:I do gay-love YA, Ari, gosh (although frankly I think Billy could do a lot better but whatever).

ALSO: My usual plug here for Daredevil End of Days.

If there's a Bendis book you're not reading (by my count, he's got five on the shelves at any given time: this, Ultimate Comics Spider-Man, All-New X-Men, AU, and Guardians) don't let it be Daredevil: End of Days.

Pick this shit up, seriously. It is the most masterful love letter to Frank Miller that anyone could produce. Not just to his DD run, but to his entire body of work. DD, Batman, Martha. Everything. It also reads like a continuation of Bendis' own run on Matt Murdock, what seems now like ages ago. There just aren't comics--more precisely, there aren't stories like this--anymore. Everything's all wrapped up in event comics and associated tropes.

It's wildly different from and better than Age of Ultron. Both are typical Bendis, but one hews closer to big questions which the medium is and always has been ill-equipped to answer. Two opposing views of Bendis here.

One story gets at heroic legacies and implications: what are the limits to your pain (think Dark Knight Rises) and how do or can you continue? What's your legacy going to be? How do you pass that on, and how do you do it in a way that's both responsible to the intended heir and responsible to the world you're going to leave behind? What kind of world is it that gets handed down? Is it worth legacy, or should identities die with us? What is a real hero, especially in the Craptastic World we call the Marvel Universe? Most importantly, and I think this is the biggest question that both AU and End of Days are posing is this: what does the future look like? And can (or how do) we control it?

I think these are some, but not all, of the questions DD: End of Days brings up. I think they're unanswerable--again about the medium being ill-equipped to deal with heady ideas like this when its presentation insists on fist and fighting. Not a complaint; just an observation.

The other is Age of Ultron, where in addition to the doomsday scenario, you get a straightforward, somewhat hamhanded attempt at Hitler's Time Travel Exemption Act. And yet beyond that, Bendis is getting at something truly brilliant regarding Pym and Ultron and the Wolverine intersection: what does it really mean to create? (A question Hickman's Fantastic Four also got into and his New Avengers is readdressing by pieces)? What are the limits, ethical or otherwise, of creation? Does (let's call it) open-source existence or sentience create an onus of responsibility on the creator, and if so, what and how and why? Where does correction or over-correction begin and where does it end? Who makes the rules, and who decides who gets to live?

Apparently Wolverine does, or is, or will, in AU. In End of Days, its a harder gamble. Funny thing about dystopian future stories: they're naturally shitty, really. That's what dystopia is, after all, but there's more I think. Because bad worlds can be replaced. With better ones. A world without Pym might not be worth it, but a world without Ultron, now wouldn't that be something? A world without Matt Murdock turns into a shithole very fast indeed, though through a confluence of factors, but it's not entirely bad. Because there's a new future there. And someone in the red suit working to make it better by pieces. Hidden optimism, from a somewhat overlooked foundation of the Marvel Universe.

Sorry to rant.

Go pick up Daredevil End of Days now or preorder the oversized HC from Amazon (the OH gets credit for the sale if you click through the website!). You'll be glad for it.

I know it might be ironic, but even if I post on the Bendis board daily I haven't read a Bendis comic since 2009, I think, with the exception of a couple of his non-Marvel stuff (a few issues of Scarlet and Brilliant). So, I haven't bene reading AoU or DD End of Days. You make it sound all so very exciting. I must say I was initially interested in End of Days but I rarely buy 3.99 titles (I hold the line at 2.99!). I'm sure I could easily find it, though, so I keep in mind your recommendations.

Twenty-Something

TheSecondLex wrote:I do gay-love YA, Ari, gosh (although frankly I think Billy could do a lot better but whatever).

ALSO: My usual plug here for Daredevil End of Days.

If there's a Bendis book you're not reading (by my count, he's got five on the shelves at any given time: this, Ultimate Comics Spider-Man, All-New X-Men, AU, and Guardians) don't let it be Daredevil: End of Days.

Pick this shit up, seriously. It is the most masterful love letter to Frank Miller that anyone could produce. Not just to his DD run, but to his entire body of work. DD, Batman, Martha. Everything. It also reads like a continuation of Bendis' own run on Matt Murdock, what seems now like ages ago. There just aren't comics--more precisely, there aren't stories like this--anymore. Everything's all wrapped up in event comics and associated tropes.

It's wildly different from and better than Age of Ultron. Both are typical Bendis, but one hews closer to big questions which the medium is and always has been ill-equipped to answer. Two opposing views of Bendis here.

One story gets at heroic legacies and implications: what are the limits to your pain (think Dark Knight Rises) and how do or can you continue? What's your legacy going to be? How do you pass that on, and how do you do it in a way that's both responsible to the intended heir and responsible to the world you're going to leave behind? What kind of world is it that gets handed down? Is it worth legacy, or should identities die with us? What is a real hero, especially in the Craptastic World we call the Marvel Universe? Most importantly, and I think this is the biggest question that both AU and End of Days are posing is this: what does the future look like? And can (or how do) we control it?

I think these are some, but not all, of the questions DD: End of Days brings up. I think they're unanswerable--again about the medium being ill-equipped to deal with heady ideas like this when its presentation insists on fist and fighting. Not a complaint; just an observation.

The other is Age of Ultron, where in addition to the doomsday scenario, you get a straightforward, somewhat hamhanded attempt at Hitler's Time Travel Exemption Act. And yet beyond that, Bendis is getting at something truly brilliant regarding Pym and Ultron and the Wolverine intersection: what does it really mean to create? (A question Hickman's Fantastic Four also got into and his New Avengers is readdressing by pieces)? What are the limits, ethical or otherwise, of creation? Does (let's call it) open-source existence or sentience create an onus of responsibility on the creator, and if so, what and how and why? Where does correction or over-correction begin and where does it end? Who makes the rules, and who decides who gets to live?

Apparently Wolverine does, or is, or will, in AU. In End of Days, its a harder gamble. Funny thing about dystopian future stories: they're naturally shitty, really. That's what dystopia is, after all, but there's more I think. Because bad worlds can be replaced. With better ones. A world without Pym might not be worth it, but a world without Ultron, now wouldn't that be something? A world without Matt Murdock turns into a shithole very fast indeed, though through a confluence of factors, but it's not entirely bad. Because there's a new future there. And someone in the red suit working to make it better by pieces. Hidden optimism, from a somewhat overlooked foundation of the Marvel Universe.

Sorry to rant.

Go pick up Daredevil End of Days now or preorder the oversized HC from Amazon (the OH gets credit for the sale if you click through the website!). You'll be glad for it.

I know it might be ironic, but even if I post on the Bendis board daily I haven't read a Bendis comic since 2009, I think, with the exception of a couple of his non-Marvel stuff (a few issues of Scarlet and Brilliant). So, I haven't bene reading AoU or DD End of Days. You make it sound all so very exciting. I must say I was initially interested in End of Days but I rarely buy 3.99 titles (I hold the line at 2.99!). I'm sure I could easily find it, though, so I keep in mind your recommendations.