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Re: Foundationless and frameless in Santa Monica, April 16, 2013

Originally Posted by Oldtimer

Welcome to the dark side.

As usual, my bees do what they wanted to do. Horizontal hive with vertical "attachment" is not growing at the same speed as another hive. Interestingly, during the inspection, I do find more activity in the horizontal part than in top vertical... Horizontal part, which is on the side (from vertical) is nearly full of honey/nectar. Mostly 50% capped honey. I think, this two-directional hive is confusing to bees - it should be ether horizontal or vertical. I am thinking, may be I should split by complete removing the vertical part (2 deeps)? The problem is that I could not place a split far away from the mother-hive

Also, it looks like, girls do not like my new design for the TBs with sides...

Re: Foundationless and frameless in Santa Monica, April 16, 2013

Originally Posted by cerezha

Horizontal part, which is on the side (from vertical) is nearly full of honey/nectar. Mostly 50% capped honey. I think, this two-directional hive is confusing to bees .

Yes I think you are quite right. While the hive stays in the current configuration, I'm pretty sure the brood nest will tend to be towards the bottom of the vertical part of the hive, with honey at the top, and to the side of the vertical part that is not below the vertical part. If they expand the size of the brood area, it will tend to be into the next box above, and the vertical part that is out to the side will be used for pollen and honey, with maybe some brood towards the middle.

Re: Foundationless and frameless in Santa Monica, April 16, 2013

Originally Posted by Oldtimer

Yes I think you are quite right. While the hive stays in the current configuration, I'm pretty sure the brood nest will tend to be towards the bottom of the vertical part of the hive, with honey at the top, and to the side of the vertical part that is not below the vertical part. If they expand the size of the brood area, it will tend to be into the next box above, and the vertical part that is out to the side will be used for pollen and honey, with maybe some brood towards the middle.

You are absolutely right! Currently, the brood is occupied two lover deeps, which are vertical part (lowest deep is also a part of the original horizontal hive). Honey is on the side (from vertical) and they still have space (for more honey, I guess) in the top vertical box. If I decided to do a split, I will remove two upper vertical deeps, which leave a lower deep with brood for horizontal hive. It would be relatively equal split in my opinion. Do you think, I should try or leave them alone for now?

Oooo
Beautiful bees and comb! Looks like they are working very hard! One week? I could not believe!

As for split, yes, I read Michael Bush, but I need to read again. Last time I did everything right (in my opinion ), only bees did not cooperate - I guess, most of them returned to original hive and some were killed... because mother-colony attacked the split (no robbing)... I guess, it was not equal split, and one part was much weaker than another. The good thing is that it worked as a good remedy against swarming. I did not see any swarm preparation at all. Bees are so fascinating! Many thanks for beautiful foundationless pictures!

Re: Foundationless and frameless in Santa Monica, April 16, 2013

Originally Posted by cerezha

If I decided to do a split, I will remove two upper vertical deeps, which leave a lower deep with brood for horizontal hive. It would be relatively equal split in my opinion. Do you think, I should try or leave them alone for now?

Do this, and it will work.

First find the queen. But if you can't, put a queen excluder between the two boxes that have brood. 5 days later have a look, the box that has eggs is where the queen is, make your split using the other box.

Just make the split using one box, with a few combs of brood in the middle, and other combs each side. Bees that are older than 2 weeks have probably started flying and learned the hive location, and will return to the old hive. The only bees that will stay are younger than 2 weeks. If you get bees from the central brood nest in a normal hive, around 1/2 of them will be younger than 2 weeks. So what you have to do is shake twice as many bees into your split as what you want to end up with, taking the bees from the central brood nest. Around 1/2 will go home. That is why you don't have too much brood in the new split just incase you don't end up with enough bees to cover it.

The field bees that go home to the original hive, can also tell the bees in their hive that there is another hive nearby to rob. So you have to make the entrance to your split very small. VERY small. The young bees that stay behind are not up to guard bee age yet and the split is easy for other bees to rob, so a small entrance is extremely important. Do not feed the split as that will encourage robbing. They should have some comb honey, that's it. One week later the bees will be up to guard duty age and you can make the entrance bigger if they need that, and in another week you can feed, if they need it.

If the split ends up smaller than you want, no worries. After a couple of weeks you can start adding combs of hatching brood to it, from the other hive, until it is up to the strength you want.

What's happening about the queen? You will introduce one? Or you want them to make one?

Re: Foundationless and frameless in Santa Monica, April 16, 2013

Originally Posted by cerezha

Oooo
Beautiful bees and comb! Looks like they are working very hard! One week? I could not believe!

Yes, I was pretty surprised too, especially since I was suffering severe anxiety about having directly released the queen. My research convinced me this was the best thing to do, but as a beginner, I always lack confidence in my decisions. I guess I was lucky this time.

The local guy I got my first nuc from was trying to feed up a couple of monster hives to take to the river bottom for the tupelo flow. The day my wife and I went up to pick up the nuc, he was kind enough to take us around his yard and open a few of his hives for us-- he knew we had no experience. At any rate, his monster hives were full of swarm cells, so he said he'd have to go through them at length and tear them down. I'd read that it was pretty hard, if not impossible to divert a hive once it had decided to swarm, but I tried to interest him in the concept of a cut-down split, as Michael Bush describes. Well, he had 40 years of experience, and I had none, so you know how that went. I talked to him a few days later, and half his bees had departed to the trees.

But his nuc is going gangbusters for us, drawing beautiful straight comb, and bringing in lots of nectar and pollen.

Re: Foundationless and frameless in Santa Monica, April 16, 2013

Oldtimer - it is so nice of you to give me such detailed description. I definitely want girls to rise a new queen, because entire point is to keep local genetics -girls are treatment-free for 4 years already (2 with me) . You made it very clear what was wrong with my first attempt to split - I did not shake enough young bees and most bees migrated back into mother-hive. I am not sure how I could use queen excluder - hopefully it could sit on top of my "bars" in the Lang boxes. Many thanks for such great support and education (always appreciated).

... What program do you use to upload photos? I always have problems doing that.Dave

Dave, thanks you for nice words! As for download at beesource - it is tricky. You need to set "Basic editor" in Forum Actions => General settings => bottom of the page, Miscellaneous Options - Basic Editor.

When done this, in the post,choose "Go Advanced",click "Manage Attachments" => Upload Files from your Computer => Browse =>choose a picture (one at the time ) ==>Open ==> Upload, wait until text disappeared from the browse window - it indicated that you could go ahead and choose another picture

When finish uploading pictures, close "Manage Attachments" window, Submit reply. Done! Note that this way, the size of your picture is unimportant, software will shrink the picture to desired size. You do not need to resize the picture prior uploading! Good luck!

Re: Foundationless and frameless in Santa Monica, April 16, 2013

Originally Posted by rhaldridge

... I always lack confidence in my decisions. ...

Yes, me too! But, you did great! My "special" problem is that I am in the center of the city and limited to 2 hives... my neighbor discovered illegal nuc, which I put under cherry-tree for pollination...big scandal... In my case any experimentation (split etc) could mean that I may lost 50% of my hives (only one ), so I really try to make balanced decisions, so at least to keep two hives in good shape. Splits to me is a problem - I need to figure out what to do with extra illegal hive if it is successful (I was so relieved when my previous split failed... no worry about extra hive) ... We already distributed bees in our neighborhood - I am concerned that our bees may compete for resources. I do not know how many beehives could sustain in the city. Anyway, beekeeping in the city is entire different story. Even inspection I could do only on Tuesdays weather permitted, because other days are not suitable for number of reasons: gardeners, parties, gas-meter people etc.

Based on your beautiful pictures - you should be very proud of your bees and yourself -you did great job!

Re: Foundationless and frameless in Santa Monica, April 16, 2013

Sergey, go to your neighbor on the other side of the neighbor who raised a stink and ask him if you can keep a hive in his or her yard, maybe even pay them a little rent money. I'm sure your area can support a lot of bees based on your results so far. And it will teach your busy body neighbor to mind their own business!

Re: Foundationless and frameless in Santa Monica, April 16, 2013

I have 6 immediate neighbors (weird property split by my wife's grandma). 2 have hives (plus us); one - empty lot (great bee potential); one never complained; another is curious and my bees love his Jacuzzi (plenty of water at my place), but he has horrible barking dogs, so I have something to complain if necessary also; last one - extremely noisy old couple, who complains about everything... Another day they discovered my hidden under cherry tree nuc. They immediately complained that they could not do weeds because my bees interfere. Actually, I have my ways with them - I show them fruits on the cherry-tree and explained that bees pollinate the tree. They immediately become exited. Than I very politely and carefully deliver to them the news, that they actually surrounded by beekeepers - 3 families have now bees! They were perplexed... old woman was upset - how she could complain about bees to me if she do not know if it is my bee? I delicately suggested that she could choose somebody else for complains... her response was hilarious: "How you do not understand that those neighbors are horrible and very rude - she could not complain to them, I am only a decent (?) person, who politely listen her complains." They got their honey but I think, I need to find a better place for my unofficial nuc (doing great!). Lady is old and really not well - if my bee stings her, they will accuse me in murder...

As for expansion - I am reluctant to do so because I have a lot of other stuff to do plus full-time job. I discovered that bee-hobby required much more attention than any other hobbies I ever had. To me, perhaps the ideal situation would be 3 officially permitted hives and 2 nucs - it is a lot of bees in small place! But it will add some flexibility.

Gas-meter guys are actually very nice - apparently, they have a special code for situation, when they have no access to the meter because of animal. Originally it was for dogs, but now they use it for bees also. They just put this code and come other day. No charges for this.

Re: Foundationless and frameless in Santa Monica, April 16, 2013

Originally Posted by cerezha

Yes, me too! But, you did great! My "special" problem is that I am in the center of the city and limited to 2 hives... my neighbor discovered illegal nuc, which I put under cherry-tree for pollination...big scandal... In my case any experimentation (split etc) could mean that I may lost 50% of my hives (only one ), so I really try to make balanced decisions, so at least to keep two hives in good shape. Splits to me is a problem - I need to figure out what to do with extra illegal hive if it is successful (I was so relieved when my previous split failed... no worry about extra hive) ... We already distributed bees in our neighborhood - I am concerned that our bees may compete for resources. I do not know how many beehives could sustain in the city. Anyway, beekeeping in the city is entire different story. Even inspection I could do only on Tuesdays weather permitted, because other days are not suitable for number of reasons: gardeners, parties, gas-meter people etc. !

Wow! You are persisting in the face of difficulties that would discourage me.

I worried about whether I would have enough forage in our little neighborhood by the bay. But when I talked to one of the local bee gurus who has a yard out in the country, he told me that I'd make twice the honey per hive that he does. Apparently in old established neighborhoods like this, there are so many flowering trees and bushes and flowers that bees can do very well. It may be the same in your neighborhood.

Originally Posted by cerezha

Based on your beautiful pictures - you should be very proud of your bees and yourself -you did great job!

That's very kind of you to say, but I've just started, so I expect there will be many ups and downs before I can actually call myself a beekeeper. But I'm certainly enjoying it!

Re: Foundationless and frameless in Santa Monica, April 16, 2013

... Apparently in old established neighborhoods like this, there are so many flowering trees and bushes and flowers that bees can do very well. It may be the same in your neighborhood....

Yes, this is true. Somebody told me that one mature flowering tree is equal to acres (?) of "normal" flowers for the bees. Also, in city, bees have no problem with water. But still, we have to be aware, that our bees could compete with native species.

Re: Foundationless and frameless in Santa Monica, April 16, 2013

Hi Cerezha,
I corresponded a few weeks back. I have a 10 frame and 8 frame. I decided to experiment with frameless foundation in the 8 frame. I took my first deep and put foundationless frames on the ends and then right before I went on a week's vacation put another deep below it with all foundationless frames(using dowels for guides...no wires). I checked today and here is one of the end frames in the 1st box..beautiful!..the other end frame they were just starting..caught them festooning..very cute). I looked in the bottom box and they were just starting in the middle frame. It has been very warm here and the nectar flow is on. Here are some pics of the one frame.IMG_1658.jpgIMG_1659.jpg.

Re: Foundationless and frameless in Santa Monica, April 16, 2013

Originally Posted by Halley L. Hart

.. I checked today and here is one of the end frames in the 1st box..beautiful!..the other end frame they were just starting..caught them festooning..very cute). I looked in the bottom box and they were just starting in the middle frame. ...

Halley, great job! See, it works! Congratulation with first AND perfect foundationless frame!!!! It is absolutely beautiful! As a general precaution, I would add new foundationless frames one by one and place them between already drawn frames (foundation or not). This way bees understood your intentions better. Also, placing the whole foundationless box is a quite challenge, but your girls looks like handled it beautifully!

Re: Inspection May 10, 2013

Well, I had very nice beginning. My horizontal (sort of) hive is doing well. They decided do not expand vertically anymore - they are busy filling up the deep with nectar and honey. I took only two pictures this time, because I was preoccupied with this gigantic frames. Since last inspection, they build and filled up 3 or 4 new bars with additional support at the sides - you could see the glimpse of the side support in the picture. I removed second deep, because it was completely empty. Next inspection, I think, I may add a medium below the deep or just remove the deep if it is ready. Bees were very docile even when I removed these gigantic frames...

Another hive is entirely different story - I just need to add a super. But I need a few frames with drawn comb to put into empty foundationless box. The plan was to take a few drawn frames from the existing box and put them into new one... Well, I was stung through PM vented beesuit quite a few times (6?)!!! Pigeon Mountain - did you hear me? It is 1 season old suit. So, I was forced to conclude my mission quickly. Girls followed me and made impressive show to my wife, who watched from inside the house - sorry, no pictures. In the morning I watched the same hive from 2' distance standing literally next to the entrance. I guess, our backyard will be unavailable for a few days.