In the "Gang Rape" article posted last week, no one commented on my prison idea. Instead, everyone engaged in a stereotypical debate about whether capital punishment is justified, then the anarchists came in and argued whether the state has any right to kill, then quozl came in and argued what is a right?

I would like to know what drastic (or minor) reforms to the American prison system you would make. But please, don't turn this into a sophomoric debate about the death penalty. It's like high school politics 101 (*yawn*).

My idea (this was for rape convicts specifically):Death is too weak a deterrent (...to shuffle off this mortal coil...). Life imprisonment in a work camp where they have to produce more than it takes to run the camp (profit for society). They build the basic prison, engage in human bicycling that produces electricity for heat and light, build simple objects for sale to purchase bread and milk. Solitary 7x4 cells, no socializing or free time. Physical fights between inmates or towards guards immediately brings the whip or the gallows. Of course you really would need proof beyond a reasonable doubt.

In the "Gang Rape" article posted last week, no one commented on my prison idea. Instead, everyone engaged in a stereotypical debate about whether capital punishment is justified, then the anarchists came in and argued whether the state has any right to kill, then quozl came in and argued what is a right?

I don't think prisons should necessarily be a living death sentence, but they should be worse than life on the streets or in the ghetto. What's the point if a stint in prison is actually more desirable than abiding by the law in your crappy life? I'm just guessing, but it seems like most career criminals come from the "hood". Seems natural that some significant portion of people living such a crappy life would break laws to improve their situation if by getting caught they would also be improving their lot in life significantly. Of course, this is a catch 22, because the criminals are one of the primary things that make the "hood" so unbearable, but that's not the point.

If prison is going to be a deterant, then it needs to be bare bones. No place to hide anything. If that means sleeping on a mat and sitting on cubes, then so be it. No TV. No telephone. Forced labor (not necessarily "hard" labor) and NO wages. Education, but not for free, they can pay it back if and when they land a job. Basic, healthy meals. No porno mags, hot rod mags, or other "low brow" literature. Mandatory councelling. Those who demonstrate good behavior get to join programs like "Puppies Behind Bars" (http://www.puppiesbehindbars.com/) that are designed to allow them to "give back" while still incarcerated and feel good about themselves. Those who don't show good behaviour lose what privilages they have, such as a social life of any kind and a sentence that will end in the near future. When it's time to go, place them into the community. Hire more social workers to oversee their integration, don't just turn them lose. Maybe even develop a system of half-way houses AAA style during their probation.

The other half of this equation is a drive to make the "hood" a livable community, of course. So that there is some other option. Education, education, education. If you want to spend billions of dollars on some program, spend it here. Wipe out ignorance, laziness, and greed like you wiped out Polio. Teach consequences (and I'm not talking prison, I'm talking about natural life consequences to being a dumb ass). Teach hope. So many people do this, but they only reach a few because they do it on their own time, barely struggling to get the message out and fight against the pull of easy money and the lazy mans way out.

All very expensive, I know, but the current system is pretty much a total waste of money, so you can either scale back and make prison hell (which seems like would give mixed results), or you can scale up and try to actually rehabilitate the majority of inmates and/or keep them there until they are.

Edit: Forgot one of the most important things: Teach PARENTING. Teach MARRIAGE COUNSELING.

In the "Gang Rape" article posted last week, no one commented on my prison idea. Instead, everyone engaged in a stereotypical debate about whether capital punishment is justified, then the anarchists came in and argued whether the state has any right to kill, then quozl came in and argued what is a right?

Haha. Nailed it. You've just described nearly every debate on RSP.

Not even close. There was nothing about Tripp blaming it on Obama and then nothing about Drew rolling his eyes about how Obama made the thread about himself.

In the "Gang Rape" article posted last week, no one commented on my prison idea. Instead, everyone engaged in a stereotypical debate about whether capital punishment is justified, then the anarchists came in and argued whether the state has any right to kill, then quozl came in and argued what is a right?

Haha. Nailed it. You've just described nearly every debate on RSP.

Not even close. There was nothing about Tripp blaming it on Obama and then nothing about Drew rolling his eyes about how Obama made the thread about himself.

Right and nothing about Chiddler being belligerent, and nothing about the one or two flaming liberals (don't even know their names, one has a really pixelated, low res cartoon head, and one has the number 1 in blue block letter style) tying it back to Bush somehow. He still nailed it.

Edit: And the funny thing is that my original reply had something abou t DW, Drew and those other two guys, but I couldn't remember their names, so I left it out. I let the phrase "stereotypical debate" cover all of that.

I would argue that a lifetime sentence without social interaction or free time constitutes cruel and unusual punishment. I think almost everyone would end up breaking whatever rules would get them executed rather than continue an unbearable and meaningless life.

I would argue that a lifetime sentence without social interaction or free time constitutes cruel and unusual punishment. I think almost everyone would end up breaking whatever rules would get them executed rather than continue an unbearable and meaningless life.

sounds like a win-win for the opponents on either side of the capital punishment debate.

I don't think prisons should necessarily be a living death sentence, but they should be worse than life on the streets or in the ghetto. What's the point if a stint in prison is actually more desirable than abiding by the law in your crappy life? I'm just guessing, but it seems like most career criminals come from the "hood". Seems natural that some significant portion of people living such a crappy life would break laws to improve their situation if by getting caught they would also be improving their lot in life significantly. Of course, this is a catch 22, because the criminals are one of the primary things that make the "hood" so unbearable, but that's not the point.

If prison is going to be a deterant, then it needs to be bare bones. No place to hide anything. If that means sleeping on a mat and sitting on cubes, then so be it. No TV. No telephone. Forced labor (not necessarily "hard" labor) and NO wages. Education, but not for free, they can pay it back if and when they land a job. Basic, healthy meals. No porno mags, hot rod mags, or other "low brow" literature. Mandatory councelling. Those who demonstrate good behavior get to join programs like "Puppies Behind Bars" (http://www.puppiesbehindbars.com/) that are designed to allow them to "give back" while still incarcerated and feel good about themselves. Those who don't show good behaviour lose what privilages they have, such as a social life of any kind and a sentence that will end in the near future. When it's time to go, place them into the community. Hire more social workers to oversee their integration, don't just turn them lose. Maybe even develop a system of half-way houses AAA style during their probation.

The other half of this equation is a drive to make the "hood" a livable community, of course. So that there is some other option. Education, education, education. If you want to spend billions of dollars on some program, spend it here. Wipe out ignorance, laziness, and greed like you wiped out Polio. Teach consequences (and I'm not talking prison, I'm talking about natural life consequences to being a dumb ass). Teach hope. So many people do this, but they only reach a few because they do it on their own time, barely struggling to get the message out and fight against the pull of easy money and the lazy mans way out.

All very expensive, I know, but the current system is pretty much a total waste of money, so you can either scale back and make prison hell (which seems like would give mixed results), or you can scale up and try to actually rehabilitate the majority of inmates and/or keep them there until they are.

Edit: Forgot one of the most important things: Teach PARENTING. Teach MARRIAGE COUNSELING.

You know, I would agree with most of this. Some really good ideas there. The only problem is (looking at the bold section of the quote) you can't just wipe out ignorance, laziness and greed like polio. It doesn't work. There are people out there who want to be lazy, or greedy, or ignorant, and nothing that you say, or do, will ever completely change that. That's usually why they're criminals in the first place. Yes, there are those who can be reached, and we should try, but we should also be honest with ourselves and admit that we can't fix the bottom line, which is that since we are free will entities, some of us will make wrong, bad, or evil choices, and there's nothing we can do to change that.

I would argue that a lifetime sentence without social interaction or free time constitutes cruel and unusual punishment. I think almost everyone would end up breaking whatever rules would get them executed rather than continue an unbearable and meaningless life.

You give social interaction and free time to those who have earned it. You take it away from those who have blown it. It's prison, not a day spa. It's why I specifically linked to puppies behind bars. It's the ultimate social interaction (a living being who loves you unconditionally, doesn't give a crap what your past is like or pre-judge you, and only asks for the basics in return) and at the same time you're giving back to society.

I was thinking more about this and think I could get behind some sort of standard sentence that everyone gets, say there are 3 or 4 classes only that result in 6 months, 1 year, 5 years, and 25 years. If you show reform and follow the rules, you get out when your sentence ends. If you are a bad person and want to rape and shiv people, you never get out, even if you started in with the 6 month term. In other words, variable length prison terms that can go UP for bad behavior. I doubt this happens right now except for really violent stuff such as murder within the prison system. If you can't show you are willing to live by societies standards, then why should they ever let you out?

Not cruel. You have the choice to get out when your term is up. Not unusual. Nothing bizarre about incarceration for people who have voluntarily exited the social contract.

I don't think prisons should necessarily be a living death sentence, but they should be worse than life on the streets or in the ghetto. What's the point if a stint in prison is actually more desirable than abiding by the law in your crappy life? I'm just guessing, but it seems like most career criminals come from the "hood". Seems natural that some significant portion of people living such a crappy life would break laws to improve their situation if by getting caught they would also be improving their lot in life significantly. Of course, this is a catch 22, because the criminals are one of the primary things that make the "hood" so unbearable, but that's not the point.

If prison is going to be a deterant, then it needs to be bare bones. No place to hide anything. If that means sleeping on a mat and sitting on cubes, then so be it. No TV. No telephone. Forced labor (not necessarily "hard" labor) and NO wages. Education, but not for free, they can pay it back if and when they land a job. Basic, healthy meals. No porno mags, hot rod mags, or other "low brow" literature. Mandatory councelling. Those who demonstrate good behavior get to join programs like "Puppies Behind Bars" (http://www.puppiesbehindbars.com/) that are designed to allow them to "give back" while still incarcerated and feel good about themselves. Those who don't show good behaviour lose what privilages they have, such as a social life of any kind and a sentence that will end in the near future. When it's time to go, place them into the community. Hire more social workers to oversee their integration, don't just turn them lose. Maybe even develop a system of half-way houses AAA style during their probation.

The other half of this equation is a drive to make the "hood" a livable community, of course. So that there is some other option. Education, education, education. If you want to spend billions of dollars on some program, spend it here. Wipe out ignorance, laziness, and greed like you wiped out Polio. Teach consequences (and I'm not talking prison, I'm talking about natural life consequences to being a dumb ass). Teach hope. So many people do this, but they only reach a few because they do it on their own time, barely struggling to get the message out and fight against the pull of easy money and the lazy mans way out.

All very expensive, I know, but the current system is pretty much a total waste of money, so you can either scale back and make prison hell (which seems like would give mixed results), or you can scale up and try to actually rehabilitate the majority of inmates and/or keep them there until they are.

Edit: Forgot one of the most important things: Teach PARENTING. Teach MARRIAGE COUNSELING.

You know, I would agree with most of this. Some really good ideas there. The only problem is (looking at the bold section of the quote) you can't just wipe out ignorance, laziness and greed like polio. It doesn't work. There are people out there who want to be lazy, or greedy, or ignorant, and nothing that you say, or do, will ever completely change that. That's usually why they're criminals in the first place. Yes, there are those who can be reached, and we should try, but we should also be honest with ourselves and admit that we can't fix the bottom line, which is that since we are free will entities, some of us will make wrong, bad, or evil choices, and there's nothing we can do to change that.

You're probably right about not totally wiping it out, but there are a TON of people in the slums who are just a product of really, really, REALLY bad parenting and a failed educational system... mostly the parenting, IMO.

I don't think prisons should necessarily be a living death sentence, but they should be worse than life on the streets or in the ghetto. What's the point if a stint in prison is actually more desirable than abiding by the law in your crappy life? I'm just guessing, but it seems like most career criminals come from the "hood". Seems natural that some significant portion of people living such a crappy life would break laws to improve their situation if by getting caught they would also be improving their lot in life significantly. Of course, this is a catch 22, because the criminals are one of the primary things that make the "hood" so unbearable, but that's not the point.

If prison is going to be a deterant, then it needs to be bare bones. No place to hide anything. If that means sleeping on a mat and sitting on cubes, then so be it. No TV. No telephone. Forced labor (not necessarily "hard" labor) and NO wages. Education, but not for free, they can pay it back if and when they land a job. Basic, healthy meals. No porno mags, hot rod mags, or other "low brow" literature. Mandatory councelling. Those who demonstrate good behavior get to join programs like "Puppies Behind Bars" (http://www.puppiesbehindbars.com/) that are designed to allow them to "give back" while still incarcerated and feel good about themselves. Those who don't show good behaviour lose what privilages they have, such as a social life of any kind and a sentence that will end in the near future. When it's time to go, place them into the community. Hire more social workers to oversee their integration, don't just turn them lose. Maybe even develop a system of half-way houses AAA style during their probation.

The other half of this equation is a drive to make the "hood" a livable community, of course. So that there is some other option. Education, education, education. If you want to spend billions of dollars on some program, spend it here. Wipe out ignorance, laziness, and greed like you wiped out Polio. Teach consequences (and I'm not talking prison, I'm talking about natural life consequences to being a dumb ass). Teach hope. So many people do this, but they only reach a few because they do it on their own time, barely struggling to get the message out and fight against the pull of easy money and the lazy mans way out.

All very expensive, I know, but the current system is pretty much a total waste of money, so you can either scale back and make prison hell (which seems like would give mixed results), or you can scale up and try to actually rehabilitate the majority of inmates and/or keep them there until they are.

Edit: Forgot one of the most important things: Teach PARENTING. Teach MARRIAGE COUNSELING.

Is it punishment, rehabilitation, or simply removing bad elements from society? I can tell you from experience that facility directors have wildly differing opinions.

4x7 cells won't fly as any habitable room has to be at least 70 square feet to meet building codes. Cells are typically 7x10 exactly.

Currently all of the above, but it seems like the rehab part is missing the mark.

IMO, it could and should be a sort of mandatory and extremely strict social rehab that only ends once you're rehabilitated. The bigger the crime, the more strict and more difficult to demonstrate you deserve to re-enter society.

In California, when a Sexily Violent Predator (SVP) finishes their prison term, there is another trial. This trial is to determine the likelihood that the person would commit another violent sex crime. If the jury feels that there is any chance of an SV crime ( a True Finding), then that person is sent back to prison and can appeal the True Finding or reapply for release in one year.

I think that something like this should be applied to all violent crimes.

You give social interaction and free time to those who have earned it. You take it away from those who have blown it. It's prison, not a day spa.

I agree that prison should not be a pleasant experience, but it's not like we're talking about giving criminals Netflix and regular backrubs. but I feel like social interaction with other human beings is nearly as basic a need as food, water or shelter. As such, I wouldn't deprive anyone, even the most reprehensible criminal, of human interaction, at least not for an extended period (or life, as the OP indicates).

I don't think prisons should necessarily be a living death sentence, but they should be worse than life on the streets or in the ghetto. What's the point if a stint in prison is actually more desirable than abiding by the law in your crappy life? I'm just guessing, but it seems like most career criminals come from the "hood". Seems natural that some significant portion of people living such a crappy life would break laws to improve their situation if by getting caught they would also be improving their lot in life significantly. Of course, this is a catch 22, because the criminals are one of the primary things that make the "hood" so unbearable, but that's not the point.

If prison is going to be a deterant, then it needs to be bare bones. No place to hide anything. If that means sleeping on a mat and sitting on cubes, then so be it. No TV. No telephone. Forced labor (not necessarily "hard" labor) and NO wages. Education, but not for free, they can pay it back if and when they land a job. Basic, healthy meals. No porno mags, hot rod mags, or other "low brow" literature. Mandatory councelling. Those who demonstrate good behavior get to join programs like "Puppies Behind Bars" (http://www.puppiesbehindbars.com/) that are designed to allow them to "give back" while still incarcerated and feel good about themselves. Those who don't show good behaviour lose what privilages they have, such as a social life of any kind and a sentence that will end in the near future. When it's time to go, place them into the community. Hire more social workers to oversee their integration, don't just turn them lose. Maybe even develop a system of half-way houses AAA style during their probation.

The other half of this equation is a drive to make the "hood" a livable community, of course. So that there is some other option. Education, education, education. If you want to spend billions of dollars on some program, spend it here. Wipe out ignorance, laziness, and greed like you wiped out Polio. Teach consequences (and I'm not talking prison, I'm talking about natural life consequences to being a dumb ass). Teach hope. So many people do this, but they only reach a few because they do it on their own time, barely struggling to get the message out and fight against the pull of easy money and the lazy mans way out.

All very expensive, I know, but the current system is pretty much a total waste of money, so you can either scale back and make prison hell (which seems like would give mixed results), or you can scale up and try to actually rehabilitate the majority of inmates and/or keep them there until they are.

Edit: Forgot one of the most important things: Teach PARENTING. Teach MARRIAGE COUNSELING.

You know, I would agree with most of this. Some really good ideas there. The only problem is (looking at the bold section of the quote) you can't just wipe out ignorance, laziness and greed like polio. It doesn't work. There are people out there who want to be lazy, or greedy, or ignorant, and nothing that you say, or do, will ever completely change that. That's usually why they're criminals in the first place. Yes, there are those who can be reached, and we should try, but we should also be honest with ourselves and admit that we can't fix the bottom line, which is that since we are free will entities, some of us will make wrong, bad, or evil choices, and there's nothing we can do to change that.

I agree with Gregory. My original post had to do with rapists (including adopting a higher standard of evidence for conviction), and was emotional, and I do feel vengeance is justified in such situations. I certainly didn't mean prisons should be as strict for burglars or drug dealers.

All this reactionary gibberish seems to be based on the delusion that everyone involved in the justice system is, and always will be, just and pure and honest - but of course they aren't, and the reason the system appears 'soft' to some of you is because its designed to limit the ability of those working in the system to abuse it. If guards can't beat prisoners as punishment, then they can't beat them for fun either. Some of the posters in this thread are pretty scary people - I keep thinking of Torquemada or a Japanese camp commandant. Theres a perverted relish for the idea of being able to hurt 'bad people'. its pretty distasteful.

I need to bring up one point you failed to mention. Though my grasp of what goes in prison is limited, the stupidest part of prison is that prisoners are given a decent amount of rights and treats, but then expected to be routinely raped. This is a clear violation of cruel and unusual punishment. And I don't see what wardens and politicians are doing to change this fact.

The easiest way to improve prisons would be to end the War on Drugs, which a study as far back as the Nixon Administration recommended be scaled back, and marijuana legalized.

As such, I wouldn't deprive anyone, even the most reprehensible criminal, of human interaction, at least not for an extended period.

For rapists, Jeff, I would, but in a separate level of super-trial which required higher standards of evidence. Remember when someone is accused of rape, their life can be ruined, so the normal standards are high anyway. I've known people who kept talking about rape just as a means of getting attention, and that's sick.