I wont accept that at all. Calvn Johnson is a stud. Avril is a stud. Stafford is a stud. Delmas is a serviceable safety.

Johnson, Stafford +1.

Avril is not a stud. He is a serviceable DE. He should get paid as such, or move on to someone willing to overpay him. He has to go around a tackle to get a sack, not through them. And he's not even doing it from the blind side.

Delmas > Avril. Not saying Delmas is great, just saying

I guess maybe Avril isn't a "stud", but I would definitely take him over delmas.

February 3rd, 2012, 10:40 am

TheRealWags

Modmin Dude

Joined: December 31st, 2004, 9:55 amPosts: 12488

Re: How Broken is the Defense? How Do You Fix It?

Delmas, IMO is a (very)poor-man's Polamalu in that neither can seem to stay healthy, however Troy at least makes the plays when needed.

_________________

Quote:

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February 3rd, 2012, 11:21 am

m2karateman

RIP Killer

Joined: October 20th, 2004, 4:16 pmPosts: 10398Location: Where ever I'm at now

Re: How Broken is the Defense? How Do You Fix It?

The Legend wrote:

pretty angry post but mostly irrevelant. im not saying we should only pass or only run. the truth is if you depend on only one of those like the lions did, the offense is easier to game plan for and easier to stop. as for the irrelevance of time of possession - come back and tell me you have never seen a team with a good ground ice a game late by eating clock with long drives mostly on the ground? Saints playoff game they beat us 38-22 in TOP, you dont think that takes the offense out of rhythm?

That's one game out of 17. And most of the time they took off the clock was in the second half, when THEY were able to run the ball against OUR weak defense. But somehow that's the fault of the Lions running game? Makes no sense to me where you are going with this? Somehow you think if the Lions could have run the ball more successfully against the Saints, they would have had a chance at winning that game. I say you're dreaming. Even if the Lions could have run the ball more successfully, the Saints passing game would have been used to dismantle our defense that much faster, and their running game would not have been used as frequently and been irrelevant.

The Legend wrote:

anyway, i look at your top 5 scoring defenses and see that they all have good ground games or at least emphasize the run quite a bit. I also see that Pittsburgh ranked NO 1 in scoring defense yet watched their defense melt down to the tune of being able to withstand what 14 seconds of overtime against a marginal at best Denver offense? Then I see the San Fran defense ranked No 2 but I also watched them give up the lead at home in the playoffs vs the Saints. Patriots 15th ranked scoring defense held up but only bc Baltimore drops a game winning TD and then misses a short kick to go to OT. So yeah, I agree the defense needs to make some stops - but how do you predict ie build that defense? Bal/San Fran/Pitt defenses at 1/2/3 dont hold up but NYG (25th scoring defense) and NE defenses (15th scoring defense) did? What does that say? To me its clear you cant analyze the teams like that but you continued to do so (carefully leaving out the Giants) which is why I say your research is irrelevant. The Lions formula of emphasizing a pass rush is very similar to what the Giants are doing but both teams rank low in scoring defense, the Patriots seem to do it mostly with scheme rather than personnel but get a lot of pressure in different ways and confuse teams into throwing a lot of INTs which isnt all that difft than the Packers.

First, I didn't "leave out" anything. I simply showed the top five and bottom five teams in each category and gave the collective records of those teams to compare against. I am talking about WINNING in the NFL. There will always be outliers in any statistical analysis that bucks the trends. But there ARE those trends that can't be ignored. The Giants barely won their division, but somehow have made it to the SB. I never said anything about guarantees.

Remember, this started out as your contention that the Lions MUST improve their running game, because that is what essentially cost them the playoff game against the Saints. That the offense hung the defense out to dry by not being able to grind out long drives, or score at the end of the first half when the defense got them the ball. I contend that having a running game would have been nice, but it essentially does not gain you many victories, particularly in the FIRST HALF of a game. I want the Lions to have a better running game, and I've said that on many occasions. But you can't sit there and tell me having the 29th ranked rushing offense is what caused the Lions defense to be ranked 23rd.

The Legend wrote:

The Lions defense can pressure the passer, they can come up with big plays in the secondary and they have a vastly improved linebacking group. I agree they can get better at S, CB, and one of the LB spots but there players at those spots are better than the same players on the SuperBowl teams. The Lions offense is completely one dimensional, as Mayhew agreed - which is the point, balance the team. Look at the Lions 1st 4 losses this season, and its pretty the clear the offense lost those games despite the defense doing its part then you get into the part of the season where the defense is completely decimated by injuries and you see they start to really get gashed w/o Delmas, Houston, Berry, Suh, LoJack, WYoung, etc for difft stretches. healthy teams win, but the talent on defense is there, they dont really need much more than some added depth.

OK...pressuring the passer is nice....but so what? What did it gain them against the Saints? Or the Packers? Or the 49ers, at the end of the game, on fourth down, when IT MATTERED? But our running game is somehow at fault for that?Linebackers VASTLY improved? Wow...I guess we have different opinions on that. Yes, they were improved over last season, but vastly so? I wouldn't go that far. Levy was the second leading tackler on the defense, but only because he was able to play every game. His play from week to week was pretty inconsistent. Tulloch was supposed to VASTLY improve our Rushing Defense. Did he? I'd say no. Same thing with Durant. I don't think they vastly improved our rushing defense, because we gave up a bunch of yards on the ground, when it mattered. Your Saints reference above is a perfect example. Or the 49ers game. Both of them were able to do it against our DEFENSE that you say is vastly improved. And they were able to do it even when our defense knew they were going to be running. Secondary? Well, look at Matt Flynn picking apart our secondary in Week 17, and tell me they are all acceptable and we just need depth. Watch Jordy Nelson basically own the middle of the defensive secondary, where our stud safety Louis Delmas is supposed to be king, and tell me that we can continue to win with that level of inadequate play. Nelson made Spievey and Delmas look like high schoolers. Then in the playoff game, it was the Saints using Jimmy Graham to abuse those two, or on some occasion Robert Meachem.

But, in the grand scheme of things, improving our running game is going to help stop opposing offenses with their backup QBs and third receivers from embarrassing us. It will stop the most prolific passing QB (season wise) in the history of the NFL and his athletic stud TE from abusing those same safeties.

OK, Legend. Whatever you say.

_________________I will not put on blinders when it comes to our QBs performances.

February 3rd, 2012, 11:50 am

The Legend

HC – Jim Caldwell

Joined: February 11th, 2005, 3:01 pmPosts: 4699Location: WSU

Re: How Broken is the Defense? How Do You Fix It?

Until u build ur knowledge base back up you arent worth talking to. u used to follow the team much closer but not anymore but the opinions are strong as ever. go find me anywhere where i said the lions lost the playoff because we dont have a running game - dont believe it and i never said it and i even told u that in this thread when u made that accusation before. now go find me the game tape where louis delmas is playing in wk 17 vs the packers. likewise durant did not play vs San Fran - i still dont understand why ur boy bobby carpenter didnt bother to help out delmas on that game winning td he just ran right past delanie walker and let him outmuscle delmas into a win. tulloch was a tremendous upgrade over levy in the middle and so was durant over peterson. this is why ur so frustrating -u act like u know everything but the facts that u base ur opinions on are incorrect. u claim to watch the games but im not sure u do - at least not w any amount of focus.

if you want a telling stat here it is

1st 11 games (healthy delmas) - Lions D gives up 202 yds/game in the air and 22.3 ppg, that would be good enough for No 7 pass D in the league.

last 5 games (only delmas missed all 5 but others out at times too) - Lions D gives up 321.4 yds and 28.2 ppg, that would be good enough for dead last.

So yes, thats why I say the talent is there on the team to play at a very high level defensively without glaring deficits then when guys went down they became one of the worst in the league. The depth w guys like chris harris, alfonso smith, brandon mcdonald, wendling didnt get it done and those spots are a lot easier to upgrade than ur starters - who when they were healthy got it done.

February 3rd, 2012, 2:16 pm

Ferris

Pro Bowl Player

Joined: April 19th, 2005, 2:10 pmPosts: 2478Location: Michigan

Re: How Broken is the Defense? How Do You Fix It?

The Legend wrote:

Until u build ur knowledge base back up you arent worth talking to. u used to follow the team much closer but not anymore but the opinions are strong as ever. go find me anywhere where i said the lions lost the playoff because we dont have a running game - dont believe it and i never said it and i even told u that in this thread when u made that accusation before. now go find me the game tape where louis delmas is playing in wk 17 vs the packers. likewise durant did not play vs San Fran - i still dont understand why ur boy bobby carpenter didnt bother to help out delmas on that game winning td he just ran right past delanie walker and let him outmuscle delmas into a win. tulloch was a tremendous upgrade over levy in the middle and so was durant over peterson. this is why ur so frustrating -u act like u know everything but the facts that u base ur opinions on are incorrect. u claim to watch the games but im not sure u do - at least not w any amount of focus.

if you want a telling stat here it is

1st 11 games (healthy delmas) - Lions D gives up 202 yds/game in the air and 22.3 ppg, that would be good enough for No 7 pass D in the league.

last 5 games (only delmas missed all 5 but others out at times too) - Lions D gives up 321.4 yds and 28.2 ppg, that would be good enough for dead last.

So yes, thats why I say the talent is there on the team to play at a very high level defensively without glaring deficits then when guys went down they became one of the worst in the league. The depth w guys like chris harris, alfonso smith, brandon mcdonald, wendling didnt get it done and those spots are a lot easier to upgrade than ur starters - who when they were healthy got it done.

I don't really understand the Delma's debate. I watched and rewatched every game this season. When a DE or OLB blew their assignment, I saw Delmas show great speed and range in making tackles. I saw very few balls thrown anywhere near him, though he has gotten burnt.

On that, I've seen every safety in the league get burnt this season. It happens. He is pretty good though, rarely misses tackles, and can really lay the wood. It's the other safety thats the liability. Alphonso Smith, Aaron Berry, and Brandon McDonald played like the back ups they are, and really contributed to the last 5 games inability to cover.

Is Delmas the best safety in the NFL. Nope, I'd give him middle of the pack though. His tackling like a heat seeking missile doesn't help his injury problem at all, but I really enjoy the hits.

Until u build ur knowledge base back up you arent worth talking to. u used to follow the team much closer but not anymore but the opinions are strong as ever. go find me anywhere where i said the lions lost the playoff because we dont have a running game - dont believe it and i never said it and i even told u that in this thread when u made that accusation before. now go find me the game tape where louis delmas is playing in wk 17 vs the packers. likewise durant did not play vs San Fran - i still dont understand why ur boy bobby carpenter didnt bother to help out delmas on that game winning td he just ran right past delanie walker and let him outmuscle delmas into a win. tulloch was a tremendous upgrade over levy in the middle and so was durant over peterson. this is why ur so frustrating -u act like u know everything but the facts that u base ur opinions on are incorrect. u claim to watch the games but im not sure u do - at least not w any amount of focus.

if you want a telling stat here it is

1st 11 games (healthy delmas) - Lions D gives up 202 yds/game in the air and 22.3 ppg, that would be good enough for No 7 pass D in the league.

last 5 games (only delmas missed all 5 but others out at times too) - Lions D gives up 321.4 yds and 28.2 ppg, that would be good enough for dead last.

So yes, thats why I say the talent is there on the team to play at a very high level defensively without glaring deficits then when guys went down they became one of the worst in the league. The depth w guys like chris harris, alfonso smith, brandon mcdonald, wendling didnt get it done and those spots are a lot easier to upgrade than ur starters - who when they were healthy got it done.

I don't really understand the Delma's debate. I watched and rewatched every game this season. When a DE or OLB blew their assignment, I saw Delmas show great speed and range in making tackles. I saw very few balls thrown anywhere near him, though he has gotten burnt.

On that, I've seen every safety in the league get burnt this season. It happens. He is pretty good though, rarely misses tackles, and can really lay the wood. It's the other safety thats the liability. Alphonso Smith, Aaron Berry, and Brandon McDonald played like the back ups they are, and really contributed to the last 5 games inability to cover.

Is Delmas the best safety in the NFL. Nope, I'd give him middle of the pack though. His tackling like a heat seeking missile doesn't help his injury problem at all, but I really enjoy the hits.

he's an easy target. no one is blaming Suh and Fairley for getting pretty much 0 pressure on the QB(thats the problem with the polomalu statement. KVB wasnt even average this year. Other than the Carolina game, what did Levy do all season? and yes, statistically we had a much better defense with our LEADER out there. the only real bad game he had was the playoff game in which nobody tackled. it doesnt matter though because Martin Mayhew(who knows a good DB when he sees one) understands his value. KVB, Levy, fonz, and Spievey could all be replaced before we even think about moving delmas.

_________________Just one Super Bowl win before I go!

February 3rd, 2012, 3:37 pm

The Legend

HC – Jim Caldwell

Joined: February 11th, 2005, 3:01 pmPosts: 4699Location: WSU

Re: How Broken is the Defense? How Do You Fix It?

agreed

February 3rd, 2012, 3:59 pm

regularjoe12

Off. Coordinator – Joe Lombardi

Joined: March 30th, 2006, 12:48 amPosts: 4180Location: Davison Mi

Re: How Broken is the Defense? How Do You Fix It?

Quote:

Until u build ur knowledge base back up you arent worth talking to

Alright guys. I love a good debate as much as the next guy, but do you really have to demean yourselves with the insults? If you cant keep it friendly at least keep it profesional. We're all fans here.

_________________2013 Lionbacker Fantasy Football Champion

February 3rd, 2012, 4:32 pm

TheRealWags

Modmin Dude

Joined: December 31st, 2004, 9:55 amPosts: 12488

Re: How Broken is the Defense? How Do You Fix It?

regularjoe12 wrote:

Quote:

Until u build ur knowledge base back up you arent worth talking to

Alright guys. I love a good debate as much as the next guy, but do you really have to demean yourselves with the insults? If you cant keep it friendly at least keep it profesional. We're all fans here.

Personally, I didn't realize that we had so many football genius' in our presence. Heck, what are all these NFL team doing interviewing all those hacks out there trying to find someone to lead their franchise's to the promised land; all they need to do is interview the members of Lionbacker.com

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Quote:

Clowns to the left of me, Jokers to the right....

February 3rd, 2012, 5:58 pm

regularjoe12

Off. Coordinator – Joe Lombardi

Joined: March 30th, 2006, 12:48 amPosts: 4180Location: Davison Mi

Re: How Broken is the Defense? How Do You Fix It?

PUT ME IN COACH! IM READY TO PLAY!!!

_________________2013 Lionbacker Fantasy Football Champion

February 3rd, 2012, 6:03 pm

The Legend

HC – Jim Caldwell

Joined: February 11th, 2005, 3:01 pmPosts: 4699Location: WSU

Re: How Broken is the Defense? How Do You Fix It?

Quote:

Alright guys. I love a good debate as much as the next guy, but do you really have to demean yourselves with the insults? If you cant keep it friendly at least keep it profesional. We're all fans here.

simple facts he states are wrong such as blaming players in a game that they arent even playing in - you cant argue with someone who wont even accept when he makes such mistakes. theres just no point sorry if thats offensive to anyone.

February 3rd, 2012, 6:33 pm

sweetd20

Pro Bowl Player

Joined: October 13th, 2005, 9:03 amPosts: 2489

Re: How Broken is the Defense? How Do You Fix It?

Here's a good point, Delmas missed a tackle once every 4.8 attempts when he had a chance at a solo tackle. There were only 7 Ss in the league that had a worse miss per attempts ratio. Which is just unexceptable as a last line of defense against the run.

February 3rd, 2012, 10:28 pm

Killwill25

Rookie Player of the Year

Joined: March 5th, 2009, 8:42 pmPosts: 2411Location: Brooklyn, NY

Re: How Broken is the Defense? How Do You Fix It?

Quote:

OK...pressuring the passer is nice....but so what? What did it gain them against the Saints? Or the Packers? Or the 49ers, at the end of the game, on fourth down, when IT MATTERED? But our running game is somehow at fault for that?Linebackers VASTLY improved? Wow...I guess we have different opinions on that. Yes, they were improved over last season, but vastly so? I wouldn't go that far. Levy was the second leading tackler on the defense, but only because he was able to play every game. His play from week to week was pretty inconsistent. Tulloch was supposed to VASTLY improve our Rushing Defense. Did he? I'd say no. Same thing with Durant. I don't think they vastly improved our rushing defense, because we gave up a bunch of yards on the ground, when it mattered. Your Saints reference above is a perfect example. Or the 49ers game. Both of them were able to do it against our DEFENSE that you say is vastly improved. And they were able to do it even when our defense knew they were going to be running. Secondary? Well, look at Matt Flynn picking apart our secondary in Week 17, and tell me they are all acceptable and we just need depth. Watch Jordy Nelson basically own the middle of the defensive secondary, where our stud safety Louis Delmas is supposed to be king, and tell me that we can continue to win with that level of inadequate play.Nelson made Spievey and Delmas look like high schoolers. Then in the playoff game, it was the Saints using Jimmy Graham to abuse those two, or on some occasion Robert Meachem.

DELMAS DID'NT PLAY IN THAT GAME. I didn't even watch that game yet I know that simple fact. And if you honestly don't think the LB group is vastly improved than wow, I have nothing to say. It really sounds as if you are basing your staements on just the last 2 games of the season. I agree that the back 7 can use a couple tweaks but it still is a playoff caliber defense as it stands right now. We ran into a more complete and experienced team who recieves the friendliest home field advantages in the NFL. Let's accept that fact before we just start blaming individuals. Like the rest of the team, Delmas is a young player who is only going to get better. And again, with him out there we are a much better defense.

and sweetd20, I could care less about tackle stats. those are so inconsistent. I know when I watch the games that even though he misses some, he is in on alot of plays and makes alot of tackles. Other than Nick Collins he's the best S in our division

_________________Just one Super Bowl win before I go!

February 3rd, 2012, 10:48 pm

sweetd20

Pro Bowl Player

Joined: October 13th, 2005, 9:03 amPosts: 2489

Re: How Broken is the Defense? How Do You Fix It?

That's not saying much for what might be the weakest division as far as S play is concerned. The Bears were fools for letting Manning leave and look what happened to their defense this season. As far as other players still in the division I might put Burnett pretty even with Delmas.

February 3rd, 2012, 10:56 pm

Killwill25

Rookie Player of the Year

Joined: March 5th, 2009, 8:42 pmPosts: 2411Location: Brooklyn, NY

Re: How Broken is the Defense? How Do You Fix It?

sweetd20 wrote:

That's not saying much for what might be the weakest division as far as S play is concerned. The Bears were fools for letting Manning leave and look what happened to their defense this season. As far as other players still in the division I might put Burnett pretty even with Delmas.