England

{Tim Coggins 27/04}
It seems apparent from the London group that there will not be 10 people in Oxford who initially want a Freerunner. Therefore I suggest one person gets an 10 pack shipped to them (to save on price, shipping and to get the goodies!) and then mails them individually across the UK. I am willing to make the order and mail the phones if we can find a way to ensure all parties interests are secure (ie. no one is going to get ripped off or left with Neo's they don't need). Has anyone got any ideas of how this could work?

It may make sense, depending on numbers, to combine fractional 10s from several places (e.g. Hants, Oxford, West Mids). I would suggest waiting until orders are going to go in, and then shifting people around to their nearest regional organiser to make up a 10.

Regarding security and trust of the transactions -- it's down to public reputations, I think. I'm organising the Hampshire one, and I've been active in the local Linux Users Group for years, so I know most of the people on our list, and they know that I'm pretty unlikely to run off to Patagonia with their money. I'd guess it's up to each organiser to come to an agreement with each purchaser that both are happy with. Darksatanic 14:08, 28 April 2008 (CEST)

It's barking to think that - outside of London - there are likely to be as many as 10 people who want Freerunners and who are all within 30 or 45 minutes drive of each other. It's quite obvious, IMO, that postage will be required. See the "security of payments" subsection I've just added below. Strolls 18:07, 28 April 2008 (CEST)

Well, an active LUG is going to make all the difference. Strolls 21:41, 29 April 2008 (CEST)

UK Group Sales and shipping - security of payments

I'm prepared to pay up front for my Freerunner - at least 50% of the price, anyway - to someone with a decent reputation. Basically, if you've been posting on usenet or Linux-centric mailing-lists or web-forums for years then that's good enough for me. For instance uk.adverts.computers has always worked on the assumption of trusting the seller and paying up front - I've never been ripped off, and scammers are always identified quite quickly; obviously this identification was at the cost of at least one buyer, so in this case of an order of ten Freerunners we need some form of reputation in order to avoid that. Does the group buyer have lots of eBay feedback?

I believe that a 50% up-front payment largely solves the trust problem. What's the consensus?

In principle I'd be prepared to make the group order & post onwards (or allow collection - I'm about 5 minutes from M1 Junction 14, halfway between London & Birmingham), with the expectation of a 50% up-front payment. However cash is very tight at the moment, and I don't know that I'll be able to front the other 50%. I do have a decent online reputation, and I've been posting in Gentoo-user and on other mailing-lists for years. I can probably find at least one or two people who know me from these postings and who have visited my house or my father's socially or to pick up a secondhand LaserJet, but probably someone who has been active in a local LUG might be considered to have a better reputation. Strolls 18:07, 28 April 2008 (CEST)

{Tim Coggins 29/04} With the 50% up front model I would be concerned that once I have sent the phones out that someone would be so happy with their Neo that they might forget to give me the other 50%. What would I do if someone claimed their box was empty? Thinking about all these edge cases makes me think I might be better with a reseller and my Amex :(

I wouldn't want to cover 50% of the price up front for even a single 10-pack. However, I've been a good member of HantsLUG for 9 or so years, I've run it for two, and I'm currently one of the team running lug.org.uk, so I've probably got a reasonable online reputation. Darksatanic 18:37, 29 April 2008 (CEST)

Sorry - I was thinking 50% when the order's placed with OpenMoko, the other 50% when the Freerunners arrive in the UK (cash on collection or cleared funds before shipping onwards). The person making the order should be the "most trustworthy" - it's easier for everyone else to "audit" him than for him to have to worry about any one of the other 9 buyers stiffing him. But having said all that, I wouldn't have any worries about paying 100% up-front to someone like Darksatanic - let me know if someone drops out of your group, mate (assuming you're happy to Special Delivery onwards to me). Strolls 21:50, 29 April 2008 (CEST)

Discuss possible ways how to deal with the distribution in The Netherlands.

{Marcel de Jong 19/04} I received an idea from User:Jan de Haan. We could try to find a distributor/importer, and approach that person with the question of doing the importing for us. Sadly I don't know anyone in that business, so I have no idea how to go about contacting someone like that.

{Sander Hoentjen 19/04} I might be able to help out here, next Tuesday I will talk with my ex-employer and ask if he has any ideas. (Their business is helping US companies establish market in Europe)

{Marcel de Jong 19/04}Please do. And keep us informed. Would be great if we can get this off the ground.

{Jan de Haan 19/04}Agree. For the record: the reason we are looking for a professional business to organize this for us is the inability of any person to front the money for 10 Freerunners, an amount of money ($6000,-) that almost everybody gives the hickups. So we're looking for a business that can buy us the 10 phones with the discount with the guaranteed sale of them. I've done business with sallandautomatisering (Am _not_ affiliated with them in any way) and they showed definite interest. So if Sander's way does not work, I suggest we contact them.

{Marcel de Jong 20/04} Jan, the Freerunner is cheaper than that. In group sale we're probably looking at a figure of 'just' $3690 (ex shipping, and probably other costs.) And otherwise it's $399 per sold phone (again excluding shipping costs and probably also import fees)
BTW it would be good if the people interested in getting a Neo in this group sale also add contact information, so that people can be notified, if you haven't done so already. Out of 11, we're only able to contact 8, at the moment.

{Marcel de Jong 20/04} I have notified 9 people on the Dutch list about this page. The other two I have no way of contacting at the moment. Let's hope they read the community mailing list. :)

{Marcel de Jong 20/04} Yorick at this point, I'm not sure. I'm not an importer myself, just someone who is eager to get his grubby hands on a Neo. :) BTW, you could start a similar discussion on it for Belgians right here as well. Just add it to the page here. Just make a separate section on this page. :)

{André Disselhorst 20/04} I was thinking that, in the case finding someone willing to do the importing in the Netherlands would fail, we maybe could join such an initiative abroad.
@Jan de Haan: I think asking sallandautomatisering will do no harm.

{Eric Smith 21/04} I can help oragnise the importing. This is something I do in my business but
have very little time available. So we need to be superefficient with information and of course financial arrangements. Feel free to mail me eric _at_ fruitcom.com.

{Marcel de Jong 22/04} Thanks Jan. I hope this will work, I'm just afraid, we're going to need more people to make it viable for those stores to import it. But I see that they use a .eu domain, so if they also sell stuff over the border, I don't think it to be too hard to drum up some support from the other European groups. That way we can make a bigger market to offset those import costs for the retailer.
BTW, I replaced your email address in that email, with something more spam-proof. ;)

{Sander Hoentjen 22/04} I had no luck with my ex-employer unfortunately. A comment about the Salland Automatisering letter though: You are talking about a E369,-, is that the price in Euro you are thinking about? ATM 369.00 USD = 231.037 EUR, shipping and taxes will be applied, anybody knows what the price will be for us taken that into account? How much money can a company make out of it, in order for us to still buy? I don't think a company will do it for free, but maybe they will do it for just the publicity, that can be good for them of course.

{Marcel de Jong 22/04} If I had to ballpark it, I'd say aim at around 350, anything below it would be great. I'm not sure what the shipping costs/import costs would come at. I think, looking at other consumer electronic prices in the US and Europe, it's a safe bet (lots of appliances have about the same number behind the currency symbol, whether it is $ or euro)
And the $369 and $399 are still estimates, at least if I read Steve's mail correctly.

{Arjan Veenstra 20/04} Personally I wouldn't mind doing this through a private person, as long as things are properly documented (e.g. there is proof when things go wrong). That will mean having to pay in advance, but I doubt anyone of us would bother to run off with $4000. A 5 lines 'contract' is probably enough to make sure you get your money back when the Freerunner don't show up. But then, i'll just go along with the rest of you.

{Sander Hoentjen 23/04} Through a private person is also fine by me, the only problem I see is getting a proper invoice. This might come in handy when there is a problem with the phone, for which you have insurance, like I do.

{Marcel de Jong 23/04} Indeed, I'd like to get an invoice as well. If Openmoko would add a separate invoice for each of the ten phones in the box, so that everyone can use that for their warranty/administration. I don't see many problems with going through a private person. We could even make it a meet at a central location, ;) to hand out the phones, to make sure that everyone gets his/her phone.

{Eric Smith 23/04} I like the idea to have Openmoko invoice each of the group separately, if that does not
kill their bulk buy offer. I am happy to go along with the proposal and send advances to someone in the group to consolidate the purchase. I work in importing so any help you need, please ask.

{Christ van Willegen 24/04} Going through one person is fine with me. I'll happily pre-pay and get my phone handed out
on Utrecht CS :-)

{Jan de Haan 23/04} Update: I'm still talking with sallandautomatisering, but cannot update untill a conclusion has been reached. Sorry. But hey, at least they are talking ;-) You'll have to trust me on that. If people don't, I can talk to one other person on this list in confidence, but you got to have a little patience for the moment. As another opportunity: can somebody take a look at [1] and give an opinion? Two possibilities arise from this: we take our business there as a group or ask a Dutch reseller to import from there.

{André Disselhorst 23/04} Thank you for your work on Sallandautomatisering. I followed your pointer to Trisoft and was reminded of another shop: [2] I don't know if they continue with importing Openmoko. I will keep an eye on them.

{Marcel de Jong 23/04} And there is Handheld-linux.com, who seem eager to offer the Neo Freerunner as well. Just no Dutch stores (yet) :) Jan, I trust you. Keep up the good work.

{Eric Smith 25/04} I Why do we not import the consignment ourselves? What are the disadvantages. I could organise and/or provide the information to someone else in the group. What is the reason that we want to put our business through a dealer?

{Marcel de Jong 25/04} I think the biggest hurdle would be the invoice, warranty-wise. But I don't mind if one of us imports it, and then distributes it. Through a meet-up of some sorts would be great. A great way to get a community feel. :)
You say you have experience with importing goods, Eric. Do you know what sorts of extra costs we have to keep in mind? Sales tax? Import costs? VAT?
Another could-be problem is with the amount of phones currently on the 'group sales list'. Currently we are at 16. Group sales are in increments of 10. So the importer could be stuck with 4 unsold phones (which of course could get sold on ebay, but it's an upfront investment in that case, with some insecurity for the importer), or 6 could get stuck with a higher expense (because they don't benefit from the group sale discount).

{Michel van Horssen 25/04} Going through a reseller you should take in mind if that party is willing to do it without taking a (large) profit. One person (doesn't have to be a business) can contact OM and ask them if the order is bigger then 10 (but not an increment of 10) the discount would still be valid per Freerunner. Or maybe one of the german resellers would give the same discount if an order above 10 pieces at once was given and send to one central person. You'd pay german VAT but that doesn't matter you would have to pay dutch VAT if you import it directly from OM. Just my 2 cents. A reseller in Holland has to ask for VAT either way as well so...

{Marcel de Jong 25/04} A similar question was asked on the mailing list, and Steve from openmoko came back and told us, that "{t}here will be two products. Buy 1 OR buy 10.{...} So, if you wanted 11 you would buy a 10 +1."
It could be that that's changed. But I kinda doubt that. Well, ok, yes, VAT is needed. But I was kinda looking for a list of extra costs to keep in mind, when importing goods on this scale. Does customs take a fee, or something.

{Christ van Willegen 25/04} Customs _sometimes_ lets packages go through without VAT, but not always. If it isn't clearly labeled they guess what's in there and tax you on it. Also, indeed, Steve said that 10+6 is out. By the way, you'll need to 'sell' 9 of the 10 phones to break even, be careful ordering 20 and selling 16! Buying 16 (10+6) and sharing the costs would bring it to $369 instead of $349 per phone.

{Marcel de Jong 25/04} Not to nitpick, but the price is already $369 per phone in the 10 pack. But you do have a point. Though I think you can easily sell those off via ebay or marktplaats or any of the other online auction sites. Too bad it isn't out yet. Would have been great to have a box them and stand in Amsterdam during Queensday, selling the phones. ;)

{Jeroen van de Nieuwenhof 26/04} I see we are at 17 already. Let's just try to get to 20 for the Netherlands. If we have that amount i am willing to import the phones for the group order, but i think we just should pay normal tax etc. and not try to avoid that by taking the chance the customs won't notice our package.

{Peter Hageman 26/04 10:00} Before the Freerunner hits the streets we will have 30 or more people joining. The price of the Freerunner won't drop with 20 or 30, but the shipping costs might.

{Christ van Willegen 27/04} (I cut out a lot of somehow duplicated comments. If anyone misses anthing, I appologise for the inconvenience) I agree with Jeroen van de Nieuwenhof about not willing to avoid taxes. Neither do I, but it happend, sometimes. If you are willing to import phones for us, that would be wonderful. Thanks!

{Eric Spierings 28/04} Guys, I thank all of you for working on this issue. Unfortunately I cannot add anything valuable to this. I'll happily join Christ while picking up the phone at Utrecht CS. :-)

{Arjan Veenstra 28/04} Shipping costs are, reading from comments on the community list, around $16 per piece for the 10pack. We might save some more ordering 20 or 30 at once, but we could consider placing seperate orders and have these delivered at more convinient places. (We migth, depending on the numbers, even mix and match with the guys in Belgium. Perhaps for some Antwerp is closer then Utrecht...)

{Marcel de Jong 28/04} Just commenting to add this link to Steve's message to the mailing list, with an estimation of the UPS shipping costs. (For us, it is a bit more expensive, but the UPS website isn't exactly cooperating with me. If someone else could look it up. The number I got for expedited delivery was 170.94 USD, for the 10-pack, and 184.20 for UPS Worldwide Express, but I'm not entirely sure if that number is correct. Somehow the site demanded I enter in the dimensions in (rounded up) inches. So those are estimates.
But my take is that it's probably wise to use the expedited, because the delivery date is in all options about the same, with one difference: Express is delivered before noon, and Expedited before the end of the day.

{Jan de Haan 29/04} Hi All. I'm sorry, but the dealer I was talking with, is not interested:

Maybe we should take their advice and order through trisoft. Anybody know anything about them? If we can pick them up ourselves (for me a 3 hours drive) we might be able do it. Main problem will be to front the money.

{Michel van Horssen 29/04} I think, reading the mail list, that 10 packs need to be ordered from the US so Trisoft is not an option I think. 1 Entity should order the 10 pack(s) and then distribute them to the other people. I could ask around maybe someone I know can be the central entity.

{Eddy Boer 29/04} @Jan de Haan: Maybe you can try Azerty (www.azerty.nl). The people who founded Salland Automatisering have started that new company some years ago.

{Marcel de Jong 29/04} But then point them to Openmoko.com/.org, because that's AFAIK the only way of getting the group discount, give them the link to the mailing list post.
But I think right now the best way is to have one or two people place the group order, and distribute it from that central location, either through the mail or through a meeting. (The latter has my preference)

{Jan de Haan 29/04} Ok, following mail is on it's way to azerty. Sorry Madjo, sent before I saw your comment.

{Michel van Horssen 29/04} Hi again, had a talk and we, OpenSource Nieuws Nederland would be willing to be that one entity who places that order in the US. There are a lot of things that would have to be worked out and costs have to be calculated but we would be willing to help and organize this with your help. There should be a page were people could signup once the price is known (first in first out untill a 10 pack is filled) and all would have to be paid in advance before ordering because we can't pay that amount of money in advance. Let me know if this is an idea or that you rather have an hardware reseller handle, is also cool, just let me know. OSNN is a company with a VAT number and if we will invoice individually but will not do waranty, if you want that then you need to order with trisoft or an other company. Warranty on the 10 pack is still a thing that needs to be answered on the list I think.

{Eddy Boer 30/04} I have also found a company who is interesting to help us. They don't sell hardware but woodworking machines, and they use opensource software as much as possible. We have talked about it and they want to buy the phones at Trisoft due to the warranty, but when you don't worry about warranty ...... Al the phones they buy should be already sold to you and the total amount should have a factor of 10 (10-pack). When the phones were arrived you can pick them up with an invoice of the company or they send the phone to you (with an invoice), but then you have to pay shipping costs. All the phones should be paid before they place the order! Belgium is also welcome!

{Marcel de Jong 04/05} I know I can't speak for all of us here. But me personally, I have a little bit more faith in the offering of Open Source Nieuws Nederland. Sorry Eddy, btw, I doubt that phones sold through Trisoft would fall under the group sale. But I could be mistaken.
Provided we get answers on the warranty thing from Openmoko, I think that's our best bet.

{Jan de Haan 05/05} Ok, let's take a quick vote (btw, any reseller who is interested in taking 10 way orders can extend this table):

{Jan de Haan 07/05} I'll vote to wait until there are actually phones shipping, until that time, the more people we gather here, and maybe other dealers, the better the deal we get(I hope).

{Theo Martens 08/05}
Well, I want to have the phone as soon as possible. The best deal ever isn't my main concern.

{Marcel de Jong 13/05}
I've been browsing the mailing list, and found this post from Openmoko's Steve. Group sales have 28 days of DOA (Dead On Arrival) coverage, and single sales have 14 days of DOA coverage. Which I think is reasonable. BTW, I don't think there will be a better deal than the $369 per phone for the 10-pack.
We currently have enough people to fill 2 10-packs, which is awesome!
What we do need to figure out are the import costs, and the shipping costs. (it's shipped via UPS, if I recall correctly from the mailing list.)

Christph Pulster wrote:> about 10 pack orders - we try to be cheaper than the 10-order-> pack-price ! so no need to collect ten local buyers.This sounds so good...! I'm waiting for official news (and maybe infos
about the gifts too)...

I checked their webpage and they advertise with OpenMoko Freerunner 299 eur

{Jeroen van de Nieuwenhof 22/05} I checked their website too and it says 'Sobald der Freerunner wirklich lieferbar ist, ist er an dieser Stelle mit konkretem Preis zu finden und real bestellbar.' Which could mean that the price will be something other than 299 euro.

{Michel van Horssen 22/05} I like the pulster deal a lot, even if they are the same price as buying the 10 pack in the US the warranty part is a lot better seeing Germany is next door to us. Only thing is that you would mis out on the pouch and headset, dunno if that's such a great loss. And they say they will be going under the price of the US 10 pack order if you order the 10 from them. So maybe a vote on yes or no to the pouch/headset deal? Maybe we should check if with Pulster a group order of 10+ will always give the discount. Like 22 will get the same discount and that we are not forced in getting groups of ten people.

{Michel van Horssen 22/05} I wrote an e-mail to pulster with the questions so I will post the answer here when I get one.

{Theo Martens 24/05}
The pouch and headset are not that important IMO. I guess most join the group sale for convenience and reduce cost. But maybe I'm wrong.

Marco Trevisan (Treviño) wrote [to Pulster - Ed.]:>> 1. Do you know when you'll be approximately able to define a price?>> 2. The Freerunner will be shipped with extra goodies (generally>> given only to people buying a 10-pack (ie: pouch and headset)?>

From Pulster [Ed.]

> Price fix ASAP I have the units in own hands/stocks.> 299-319 eur is really realistic.> > All goodies included at PULSTER !> > Also can be bought a lot accessories extra very soon (debug board, pens, > cases etc)> > you see, I will make all your wishes true :)

{Michel van Horssen 26/05} Yeah, read that message in the weekend, no reply to my mail at this moment but seeing this message straight from pulster I would say that we should buy directly from pulster as a group. Warranty wise it's better as well.

399 U.S. dollars is about 253 Euros and including VAT that would become 301.07 Euro so pulster with their price being 299 Euro (see below) has a good price and for 10 and more there is a discount just like in the US. I would propose to take the dutch group sale to Pulster.

The following mail from Chis Pulster was on the list also.

I am Chris from pulster.eu - my hello to this great community.
May I add some points from my side:
- Freerunner - ready to order ASAP it is available. We do not
take pre-orders of items we dont have in hands. For a one-time info-
mail once the Freerunner is ready to order, please just email me
mailto: christoph@pulster.de
- we aim a Freerunner price tag of 299 EUR incl. VAT
- shipping worldwide with DHL, Europa 15 EUR, World 30 EUR postage
- soon we offer accessories for Freerunner like spare batterie, charger,
Headset, pouch and also the debug-board
- group-sales make local communities, that is wonderful. I am happy to
sell Freerunner separately or in packages.
Many thanks,
Chris

{Eric Spierings 26/05}
Indeed let's take the dutch group sale to Pulster. We are with 22 so we should be able to make a good deal regarding the goodies. And in that way no-one has to take any financial risk.

{Michel van Horssen 28/05} My guess is, that for a group buy at pulster there is still one entity needed for buying the devices. The thing is that with pulster, as with the US deal, the waranty should be per person and not named for the buying entity.

I don't think that we need to do the 'group buy' at Pulster. You can just buy the device at 299 a piece there. I would like to have the pouch though, if they can assure me that the pouch and other goodies would be included in the deal (because they of course could make a number of 'groupbuys' for the entire customer base), then count me in.--MadJo

Your absolutly right on this one, been thinking about it and the possible discount we would be getting would wasted on shipping within the Netherlands again. Like you said, if there are goodies involved it's a different deal of course :) . --Michel van Horssen

So let's start negotiating with Pulster regarding the goodies. We can bring in 22 customers, so he has something to win. It might be important to know whether Pulster takes credit card payments. I cannot find that option on their webpage and an electronic banktransfer will add another 15 (?) euro.Eric Spierings

Bank payments to germany are free of charge, at least for my bank (Rabobank).{Sander Hoentjen}

We do not accept any other payment option like PayPal, Reembourse/Cash-on-delivery (COD) payments,
direct CreditCard payments, any kind of cheques, western union, postal money orders, cash. Please dont
ask, we do not accept none of this options thanks to a very few but very expensive scams.

Nice double negative in there, btw. But still, 299+15 is less than 350 or 400. ;) --MadJo

If it is going to be a group sale (if pulster provides the goodies) it would be (discounted price * 22 + transfer rate + (21 * shipping within Holland)) Michel van Horssen

Are you assuming that we'd get a discounted price when we order in bulk? I have not seen any evidence that Pulster will lower the price even more, when done like that. But indeed, we'd have 22 * whatever-price-the-freerunner-will-get-at-Pulster + shipping costs... but then we are back at the discussion of how to deal with the warranty. Will Pulster give separate invoices for each of the phones in the pack? --MadJo

{Michel van Horssen 02/06} Okay I got an answer from Chris Pulster. I had 2 main questions that he answered and they were 1. Will the pouch and other goodies be included with a group sale as would be if we were to buy in the states. 2. Is a group sale, like in the states, limited to groups of ten or will the discount be for all phones bought in bulk. This is what he had to say:

about your question: at the moment we dont know about pouch/headsets
included or not. I will tell you a more reliable answer if Freerunners
are in stocks.
my discount system and sales are full flexibel (no ten-pack limitations)
let us talk and we find a nice offer for the dutch OpenMoko community !
Beste Gruesse aus Leimen,
Christoph Pulster

We will have to take a look at what the discount will be and if it is worth it considering we will have extra shipping cost in holland.

If the shipping costs will be too high, i would be willing to pick the phones up myself, if my expenses are covered. We have to figure out further distribution though. {Jeroen van de Nieuwenhof 03/06}

{Atilla Filiz 19/06} Don't we have a chance for direct shipping from Taiwan? The phones are produced there anyway.

{Michel van Horssen 20/06} We could but the problem would be that we would be buying it for consumer prices where Pulster buys a whole lot, and being a reseller pays a reseller price, or better yet a distributors price. So my bet is that we would be better of getting it from pulster than from Taiwan because that would not be much cheaper then getting it from the States.

{Atilla Filiz 22/06} Any news from Pulster or any other possible importer yet?

{Michel van Horssen 25/06} I got some news from Christoph just now but am waiting for permission to post it here, nothing earth chattering but just want his permission seeing it is a private e-mail. I'll keep you posted.

Okay this is the e-mail Christopher from pulster.de wrote to me this afternoon:

- our price of 299 EUR for Openmoko Freerunner is already rock-bottom, so we can not make further discounts, my apologises. What we can offer is free shipping
worldwide if you order 10 units or more at once.
- delivery time: same day money cleares we ship with registered and insured DHL airmail parcel. Transit time inside Europe is c.3 days, outside Europe 5 days.
- customs: inside EU community there is no hassle with customs and no taxes/VAT will be added. Its all included our price of 299 eur.
Outside EU community (Switzerland, Norway, USA, Asia) we will reduce German VAT giving a buying price of 249 EUR excl. VAT. Please note your local VAT will be added.
- warranty: we give full 2 years warranty period. Please note, this is legal law for European business and compare it with own imports from Asia/USA.
For warranty issues we are happy to include a separate invoice for each person of the GroupSale.
- accessories included: its identical to the single unit order. Any other accessories (Cases/Headset etc.) can be ordered in our shop www.pulster.eu - we already have stocks.

My first reaction was that seeing this it would be better to order as an individual because the only benefit of the free shipping would be lost because we would have to re-distribute it in Holland so that would add some shipping costs again. That's what I wrote to Chris and he replied that another benefit of a group order is that a group order has precedence before a shop sale. So My guess is ( and I hope to get that confirmed by Chris ASAP ) that if we as a group order at pulster.de before the shop opens, those phones will be reserved for us. When you order as an individual there is a chance you will miss out on the first batch and would have to wait until Chris gets another batch of phones.

So my advice would be, if we want to get our hands on a Openmoko FreeRunner as one of the first in Holland we would need to buy as a group. Again, we, Open Source Nieuws Nederland, are willing to be the mediator. The price would be the Euro 299 plus shipping costs within Holland and the money needs to be in our bank account before we pay pulster.de we can not afford to pay in advance. How do we communicate? Should I open an e-mail adres fot this? Do any of you want to do the group thing with pulster, or buy as an individual or take your money to the states?

SeeYa,
Michel

{Nico Veenkamp 26/06}. I am willing to group my order together with the rest using Open Source Nieuws Nederland as intermediate. Specifically to have the priority advantage of the group order mentioned by Michel to get my hands as soon as possible on the Neo FreeRunner. I would suggest to Michel to put order details on this page and open a specific email adres to receive orders.

I'm also in on that groupsale. Too bad it doesn't include the goodie bag, but that doesn't matter much. :) I'd suggest setting up an email address. You do need address details from the participants. :) Or do you prefer to set a date on which the Neos are handed to everyone in person? :) [ MadJo 08:40, 26 June 2008 (UTC) ]

{Jeroen van de Nieuwenhof 26/06}Count me in on the group sale too. My main interest is to get the neo as soon as possible and to have an individual tax receipt. Is that possible when i join in on the group sale?

{Michel van Horssen 26/06} Okay, The following will happen. I will try and mail everyone on the group sale page (as long as people are using a registered username with e-mail address) and this talk page (when not on the group sale page) with the specifics, I will also mail to the community mail list with that message. Keep in mind, this will all take some time because first we need to give people a chance to "sign up", then to transfer money and then for us to transfer all that money to pulster. Then (when pulster has the money) the phones will be send to us and then they will be send to the people. So do not expect them to be with you within a few days after making the money transfer to us, if you want that then try your luck by buying it on your own and hope that there will enough in stock at pulster.de before you get there.

We will be sending the phones with insured postage, this will put an extra Euro 7,95 on top of the Pulster.de price of Euro 299. It could be we have to do some extra wrapping, I'm waiting for an answer on that part by Pulster. We still need 10 or more buyers so if that number is not reached it is everyone for his/her self.

Maybe we need to put something on the group sale page?

{Jeroen van de Nieuwenhof 26/06} Is it possible to verify at Pulster if they put individual receipts with the phones, or they just send one for the whole group?

{Michel van Horssen 26/06} To quote from the above mentioned mail from Pulster.de "For warranty issues we are happy to include a separate invoice for each person of the GroupSale" So that's okay.

{Arjan Veenstra 27/06} According to messages on the community list Pulster will start shipping on the 4th of July, we probably should have our order in before that, otherwise were better of just ordering on our own. The savings has been reduced to around EUR 8,- on shipping. I'm not sure that alone makes it worth the hassle, and they are taking orders right now...

(Christ van Willegen 27/06} I'm not sure what to do right now... We're at 29 of 30 now, but I am really tempted to pre-order now... Any advice we can give each other?

{Arjan Veenstra 27/06} To be honest, I think anyone who wants it asap should just order it from pulster. The benefits of a group purchase there are just 8,- and it will take time to get it all setup and to get the distribution done.
A group order may just be worthwhile when getting 10packs from the states, the cost will be roughly the same, but it will include the goodies (and loose the warranty), maybe there are 10 people who consider that worth the effort.
Unless someone convinces me to do otherwise I will just place my own order with pulster by the end of today...

{Michel van Horssen 27/06} Okay, my thoughts exactly, after reading the message in te mailing list today from Christohper and thinking about it and reading your remarks, I have to agree. Organizing all this including transfering the money to our account and then the rest of the process, you are better of ordering dirct from Pulster, and the fact that you can order extra's as well. So as far as I'm concerned the group sale is of and I would advice everyone to order at pulster.de

So I will NOT be sending out e-mails today to organize all of this. It's everyone for his/her self. :) Start ordering. :) Maybe a message stating this should be put on the group sale page?

{Atilla Filiz 27/06} The resellers have started to ship and some even finished their first stocks. If there is a group already formed, count me in. Otherwise, it seems it's best as "every gentleman for himself".

{Jeroen van de Nieuwenhof 27/06} I just placed an individual order at Pulster.de, so i won't be joining you one the group sale. I'm trying to get the phone before the 12th of july, so i'm in a bit of a hurry.

{Michel van Horssen 27/06} I put an order in with Pulster as well this afternoon. The price is right.

{Michel van Horssen 28/06} As was to be expected we would never have had any chance to be quick enough to get a group sale together for Pulster. If you look at the sales page now for the Freerunner the next order round is for the 25th, I only have an automatic order reply for my personal order, not the human one so I'm not even certain of the 05-07 batch. Time will tell. Hope the others kept on reading this page.

After reading the comments here, I too decided to place an individual order. On one hand it's sad, because it does form communities. :) MadJo 14:37, 29 June 2008 (UTC)

I agree. I am going to place an individual order too. As I don't think I could get Freerunner before my vacation, so it doesn't make any sense for me trying to get this from the first batch --VreVo 09:31, 30 June 2008 (UTC)

Canada

GTA (Toronto)

{ --Argo 03:51, 17 May 2008 (UTC) }
For group 1 it looks like they have actually gotten the 10 orders in? or am I them adding up wrong?

Macedonia

{--Neutrino 9:27 AM, 01 July 2008 } When should We place order at Openmoko store? Macedonia will be recognize as option to select country where goods should be delivered, I beleive? I'm asking this because at German store [3] there are isn't case!?
If the phone concept is to be open, it should be open for everyone on the planet! It must be possible to buy it from anywhere!? So, I personally beleive that openmoko team could provide this solution to us! We where waiting for such a long time for phone mass market release date, and it would be bad if I can not have it.
Thanks to Openmoko team and continue with excellent work!
In the future We will wait for new better software releases such as ASU images or new GTK+ images or FSO images or...
Best regards

Pavel Kovář>> best case is I would start to test phones around the first of june. Then
pack and ship.
1.6. začíná testovat telefony a potm je balit a odesílat.The factory made us do one more Pre MP run to maximize yield. basically you
build a XyZ phones. you test them, Xy% pass the test, and the factory says.
"good. can you reduce the test time and decrease the false negatives on the
test software, because that bad phone really was good." arrg. Ale toto nějak moc nechápu.

Doplňující informace

Vyjádření Pulster.de na objednávku většího množství telefonů:

Hello,
on OpenMoko wiki they announced: "Every 10 pack, will come with
a box of stuff. 10 pouches and 10 head sets." Will this offer
also be available in your shop? Some discount and bonus gadgets?
I already want to order 20-30 phones to Czech Republic, so I am
trying to find the best way, how to order this amount. Either
from USA or from EU.
Thank you, Martin Senkerik

Hello,
thanks a lot for asking. Right now we dont have Freerunner in
stock, so no idea about earphones/pouches, sorry.
I am happy to provide Czech users with OpenMokos. No customs,
no paperwork, I have a lot CZ customers.
Allow me to put you on the info list once it is avalaible and you
get clear infos about all. We can work out free shipping and
maybe some goodies.
heres the standard info text:
The new modell is called "Freerunner" (version GTA02).
It will be available end of June 2008. We try to aim 300-350 EUR
sales price.
Once it's ready to ship, you willfind it in our shop.
We do not make pre-orders of items we dont have in hands,
so please understand. Once the Freerunner is in stock, ready to
ship, we will send you a one-time info mail (we do not send
you any spam, dont worry).
Of course we are happy you bookmark us and come back to check
for the nice Freerunner. Please find a small datasheet here:
http://www.pulster.de/info/pdas/openmoko/freerunner-flyer.pdf
Beste Gruesse aus Leimen,
Christoph Pulster

Mumbai (India)

Ready to order but need at least 50% confirmed orders.
Local pickup will be free.
Per piece price 17100/- (380$ * 45).
This will include shipping cost from Openmoko to Mumbai.
Outside Mumbai customers can add local shipping cost.

England

{Tim Coggins 27/04}
It seems apparent from the London group that there will not be 10 people in Oxford who initially want a Freerunner. Therefore I suggest one person gets an 10 pack shipped to them (to save on price, shipping and to get the goodies!) and then mails them individually across the UK. I am willing to make the order and mail the phones if we can find a way to ensure all parties interests are secure (ie. no one is going to get ripped off or left with Neo's they don't need). Has anyone got any ideas of how this could work?

It may make sense, depending on numbers, to combine fractional 10s from several places (e.g. Hants, Oxford, West Mids). I would suggest waiting until orders are going to go in, and then shifting people around to their nearest regional organiser to make up a 10.

Regarding security and trust of the transactions -- it's down to public reputations, I think. I'm organising the Hampshire one, and I've been active in the local Linux Users Group for years, so I know most of the people on our list, and they know that I'm pretty unlikely to run off to Patagonia with their money. I'd guess it's up to each organiser to come to an agreement with each purchaser that both are happy with. Darksatanic 14:08, 28 April 2008 (CEST)

It's barking to think that - outside of London - there are likely to be as many as 10 people who want Freerunners and who are all within 30 or 45 minutes drive of each other. It's quite obvious, IMO, that postage will be required. See the "security of payments" subsection I've just added below. Strolls 18:07, 28 April 2008 (CEST)

Well, an active LUG is going to make all the difference. Strolls 21:41, 29 April 2008 (CEST)

UK Group Sales and shipping - security of payments

I'm prepared to pay up front for my Freerunner - at least 50% of the price, anyway - to someone with a decent reputation. Basically, if you've been posting on usenet or Linux-centric mailing-lists or web-forums for years then that's good enough for me. For instance uk.adverts.computers has always worked on the assumption of trusting the seller and paying up front - I've never been ripped off, and scammers are always identified quite quickly; obviously this identification was at the cost of at least one buyer, so in this case of an order of ten Freerunners we need some form of reputation in order to avoid that. Does the group buyer have lots of eBay feedback?

I believe that a 50% up-front payment largely solves the trust problem. What's the consensus?

In principle I'd be prepared to make the group order & post onwards (or allow collection - I'm about 5 minutes from M1 Junction 14, halfway between London & Birmingham), with the expectation of a 50% up-front payment. However cash is very tight at the moment, and I don't know that I'll be able to front the other 50%. I do have a decent online reputation, and I've been posting in Gentoo-user and on other mailing-lists for years. I can probably find at least one or two people who know me from these postings and who have visited my house or my father's socially or to pick up a secondhand LaserJet, but probably someone who has been active in a local LUG might be considered to have a better reputation. Strolls 18:07, 28 April 2008 (CEST)

{Tim Coggins 29/04} With the 50% up front model I would be concerned that once I have sent the phones out that someone would be so happy with their Neo that they might forget to give me the other 50%. What would I do if someone claimed their box was empty? Thinking about all these edge cases makes me think I might be better with a reseller and my Amex :(

I wouldn't want to cover 50% of the price up front for even a single 10-pack. However, I've been a good member of HantsLUG for 9 or so years, I've run it for two, and I'm currently one of the team running lug.org.uk, so I've probably got a reasonable online reputation. Darksatanic 18:37, 29 April 2008 (CEST)

Sorry - I was thinking 50% when the order's placed with OpenMoko, the other 50% when the Freerunners arrive in the UK (cash on collection or cleared funds before shipping onwards). The person making the order should be the "most trustworthy" - it's easier for everyone else to "audit" him than for him to have to worry about any one of the other 9 buyers stiffing him. But having said all that, I wouldn't have any worries about paying 100% up-front to someone like Darksatanic - let me know if someone drops out of your group, mate (assuming you're happy to Special Delivery onwards to me). Strolls 21:50, 29 April 2008 (CEST)

Discuss possible ways how to deal with the distribution in The Netherlands.

{Marcel de Jong 19/04} I received an idea from User:Jan de Haan. We could try to find a distributor/importer, and approach that person with the question of doing the importing for us. Sadly I don't know anyone in that business, so I have no idea how to go about contacting someone like that.

{Sander Hoentjen 19/04} I might be able to help out here, next Tuesday I will talk with my ex-employer and ask if he has any ideas. (Their business is helping US companies establish market in Europe)

{Marcel de Jong 19/04}Please do. And keep us informed. Would be great if we can get this off the ground.

{Jan de Haan 19/04}Agree. For the record: the reason we are looking for a professional business to organize this for us is the inability of any person to front the money for 10 Freerunners, an amount of money ($6000,-) that almost everybody gives the hickups. So we're looking for a business that can buy us the 10 phones with the discount with the guaranteed sale of them. I've done business with sallandautomatisering (Am _not_ affiliated with them in any way) and they showed definite interest. So if Sander's way does not work, I suggest we contact them.

{Marcel de Jong 20/04} Jan, the Freerunner is cheaper than that. In group sale we're probably looking at a figure of 'just' $3690 (ex shipping, and probably other costs.) And otherwise it's $399 per sold phone (again excluding shipping costs and probably also import fees)
BTW it would be good if the people interested in getting a Neo in this group sale also add contact information, so that people can be notified, if you haven't done so already. Out of 11, we're only able to contact 8, at the moment.

{Marcel de Jong 20/04} I have notified 9 people on the Dutch list about this page. The other two I have no way of contacting at the moment. Let's hope they read the community mailing list. :)

{Marcel de Jong 20/04} Yorick at this point, I'm not sure. I'm not an importer myself, just someone who is eager to get his grubby hands on a Neo. :) BTW, you could start a similar discussion on it for Belgians right here as well. Just add it to the page here. Just make a separate section on this page. :)

{André Disselhorst 20/04} I was thinking that, in the case finding someone willing to do the importing in the Netherlands would fail, we maybe could join such an initiative abroad.
@Jan de Haan: I think asking sallandautomatisering will do no harm.

{Eric Smith 21/04} I can help oragnise the importing. This is something I do in my business but
have very little time available. So we need to be superefficient with information and of course financial arrangements. Feel free to mail me eric _at_ fruitcom.com.

{Marcel de Jong 22/04} Thanks Jan. I hope this will work, I'm just afraid, we're going to need more people to make it viable for those stores to import it. But I see that they use a .eu domain, so if they also sell stuff over the border, I don't think it to be too hard to drum up some support from the other European groups. That way we can make a bigger market to offset those import costs for the retailer.
BTW, I replaced your email address in that email, with something more spam-proof. ;)

{Sander Hoentjen 22/04} I had no luck with my ex-employer unfortunately. A comment about the Salland Automatisering letter though: You are talking about a E369,-, is that the price in Euro you are thinking about? ATM 369.00 USD = 231.037 EUR, shipping and taxes will be applied, anybody knows what the price will be for us taken that into account? How much money can a company make out of it, in order for us to still buy? I don't think a company will do it for free, but maybe they will do it for just the publicity, that can be good for them of course.

{Marcel de Jong 22/04} If I had to ballpark it, I'd say aim at around 350, anything below it would be great. I'm not sure what the shipping costs/import costs would come at. I think, looking at other consumer electronic prices in the US and Europe, it's a safe bet (lots of appliances have about the same number behind the currency symbol, whether it is $ or euro)
And the $369 and $399 are still estimates, at least if I read Steve's mail correctly.

{Arjan Veenstra 20/04} Personally I wouldn't mind doing this through a private person, as long as things are properly documented (e.g. there is proof when things go wrong). That will mean having to pay in advance, but I doubt anyone of us would bother to run off with $4000. A 5 lines 'contract' is probably enough to make sure you get your money back when the Freerunner don't show up. But then, i'll just go along with the rest of you.

{Sander Hoentjen 23/04} Through a private person is also fine by me, the only problem I see is getting a proper invoice. This might come in handy when there is a problem with the phone, for which you have insurance, like I do.

{Marcel de Jong 23/04} Indeed, I'd like to get an invoice as well. If Openmoko would add a separate invoice for each of the ten phones in the box, so that everyone can use that for their warranty/administration. I don't see many problems with going through a private person. We could even make it a meet at a central location, ;) to hand out the phones, to make sure that everyone gets his/her phone.

{Eric Smith 23/04} I like the idea to have Openmoko invoice each of the group separately, if that does not
kill their bulk buy offer. I am happy to go along with the proposal and send advances to someone in the group to consolidate the purchase. I work in importing so any help you need, please ask.

{Christ van Willegen 24/04} Going through one person is fine with me. I'll happily pre-pay and get my phone handed out
on Utrecht CS :-)

{Jan de Haan 23/04} Update: I'm still talking with sallandautomatisering, but cannot update untill a conclusion has been reached. Sorry. But hey, at least they are talking ;-) You'll have to trust me on that. If people don't, I can talk to one other person on this list in confidence, but you got to have a little patience for the moment. As another opportunity: can somebody take a look at [1] and give an opinion? Two possibilities arise from this: we take our business there as a group or ask a Dutch reseller to import from there.

{André Disselhorst 23/04} Thank you for your work on Sallandautomatisering. I followed your pointer to Trisoft and was reminded of another shop: [2] I don't know if they continue with importing Openmoko. I will keep an eye on them.

{Marcel de Jong 23/04} And there is Handheld-linux.com, who seem eager to offer the Neo Freerunner as well. Just no Dutch stores (yet) :) Jan, I trust you. Keep up the good work.

{Eric Smith 25/04} I Why do we not import the consignment ourselves? What are the disadvantages. I could organise and/or provide the information to someone else in the group. What is the reason that we want to put our business through a dealer?

{Marcel de Jong 25/04} I think the biggest hurdle would be the invoice, warranty-wise. But I don't mind if one of us imports it, and then distributes it. Through a meet-up of some sorts would be great. A great way to get a community feel. :)
You say you have experience with importing goods, Eric. Do you know what sorts of extra costs we have to keep in mind? Sales tax? Import costs? VAT?
Another could-be problem is with the amount of phones currently on the 'group sales list'. Currently we are at 16. Group sales are in increments of 10. So the importer could be stuck with 4 unsold phones (which of course could get sold on ebay, but it's an upfront investment in that case, with some insecurity for the importer), or 6 could get stuck with a higher expense (because they don't benefit from the group sale discount).

{Michel van Horssen 25/04} Going through a reseller you should take in mind if that party is willing to do it without taking a (large) profit. One person (doesn't have to be a business) can contact OM and ask them if the order is bigger then 10 (but not an increment of 10) the discount would still be valid per Freerunner. Or maybe one of the german resellers would give the same discount if an order above 10 pieces at once was given and send to one central person. You'd pay german VAT but that doesn't matter you would have to pay dutch VAT if you import it directly from OM. Just my 2 cents. A reseller in Holland has to ask for VAT either way as well so...

{Marcel de Jong 25/04} A similar question was asked on the mailing list, and Steve from openmoko came back and told us, that "{t}here will be two products. Buy 1 OR buy 10.{...} So, if you wanted 11 you would buy a 10 +1."
It could be that that's changed. But I kinda doubt that. Well, ok, yes, VAT is needed. But I was kinda looking for a list of extra costs to keep in mind, when importing goods on this scale. Does customs take a fee, or something.

{Christ van Willegen 25/04} Customs _sometimes_ lets packages go through without VAT, but not always. If it isn't clearly labeled they guess what's in there and tax you on it. Also, indeed, Steve said that 10+6 is out. By the way, you'll need to 'sell' 9 of the 10 phones to break even, be careful ordering 20 and selling 16! Buying 16 (10+6) and sharing the costs would bring it to $369 instead of $349 per phone.

{Marcel de Jong 25/04} Not to nitpick, but the price is already $369 per phone in the 10 pack. But you do have a point. Though I think you can easily sell those off via ebay or marktplaats or any of the other online auction sites. Too bad it isn't out yet. Would have been great to have a box them and stand in Amsterdam during Queensday, selling the phones. ;)

{Jeroen van de Nieuwenhof 26/04} I see we are at 17 already. Let's just try to get to 20 for the Netherlands. If we have that amount i am willing to import the phones for the group order, but i think we just should pay normal tax etc. and not try to avoid that by taking the chance the customs won't notice our package.

{Peter Hageman 26/04 10:00} Before the Freerunner hits the streets we will have 30 or more people joining. The price of the Freerunner won't drop with 20 or 30, but the shipping costs might.

{Christ van Willegen 27/04} (I cut out a lot of somehow duplicated comments. If anyone misses anthing, I appologise for the inconvenience) I agree with Jeroen van de Nieuwenhof about not willing to avoid taxes. Neither do I, but it happend, sometimes. If you are willing to import phones for us, that would be wonderful. Thanks!

{Eric Spierings 28/04} Guys, I thank all of you for working on this issue. Unfortunately I cannot add anything valuable to this. I'll happily join Christ while picking up the phone at Utrecht CS. :-)

{Arjan Veenstra 28/04} Shipping costs are, reading from comments on the community list, around $16 per piece for the 10pack. We might save some more ordering 20 or 30 at once, but we could consider placing seperate orders and have these delivered at more convinient places. (We migth, depending on the numbers, even mix and match with the guys in Belgium. Perhaps for some Antwerp is closer then Utrecht...)

{Marcel de Jong 28/04} Just commenting to add this link to Steve's message to the mailing list, with an estimation of the UPS shipping costs. (For us, it is a bit more expensive, but the UPS website isn't exactly cooperating with me. If someone else could look it up. The number I got for expedited delivery was 170.94 USD, for the 10-pack, and 184.20 for UPS Worldwide Express, but I'm not entirely sure if that number is correct. Somehow the site demanded I enter in the dimensions in (rounded up) inches. So those are estimates.
But my take is that it's probably wise to use the expedited, because the delivery date is in all options about the same, with one difference: Express is delivered before noon, and Expedited before the end of the day.

{Jan de Haan 29/04} Hi All. I'm sorry, but the dealer I was talking with, is not interested:

Maybe we should take their advice and order through trisoft. Anybody know anything about them? If we can pick them up ourselves (for me a 3 hours drive) we might be able do it. Main problem will be to front the money.

{Michel van Horssen 29/04} I think, reading the mail list, that 10 packs need to be ordered from the US so Trisoft is not an option I think. 1 Entity should order the 10 pack(s) and then distribute them to the other people. I could ask around maybe someone I know can be the central entity.

{Eddy Boer 29/04} @Jan de Haan: Maybe you can try Azerty (www.azerty.nl). The people who founded Salland Automatisering have started that new company some years ago.

{Marcel de Jong 29/04} But then point them to Openmoko.com/.org, because that's AFAIK the only way of getting the group discount, give them the link to the mailing list post.
But I think right now the best way is to have one or two people place the group order, and distribute it from that central location, either through the mail or through a meeting. (The latter has my preference)

{Jan de Haan 29/04} Ok, following mail is on it's way to azerty. Sorry Madjo, sent before I saw your comment.

{Michel van Horssen 29/04} Hi again, had a talk and we, OpenSource Nieuws Nederland would be willing to be that one entity who places that order in the US. There are a lot of things that would have to be worked out and costs have to be calculated but we would be willing to help and organize this with your help. There should be a page were people could signup once the price is known (first in first out untill a 10 pack is filled) and all would have to be paid in advance before ordering because we can't pay that amount of money in advance. Let me know if this is an idea or that you rather have an hardware reseller handle, is also cool, just let me know. OSNN is a company with a VAT number and if we will invoice individually but will not do waranty, if you want that then you need to order with trisoft or an other company. Warranty on the 10 pack is still a thing that needs to be answered on the list I think.

{Eddy Boer 30/04} I have also found a company who is interesting to help us. They don't sell hardware but woodworking machines, and they use opensource software as much as possible. We have talked about it and they want to buy the phones at Trisoft due to the warranty, but when you don't worry about warranty ...... Al the phones they buy should be already sold to you and the total amount should have a factor of 10 (10-pack). When the phones were arrived you can pick them up with an invoice of the company or they send the phone to you (with an invoice), but then you have to pay shipping costs. All the phones should be paid before they place the order! Belgium is also welcome!

{Marcel de Jong 04/05} I know I can't speak for all of us here. But me personally, I have a little bit more faith in the offering of Open Source Nieuws Nederland. Sorry Eddy, btw, I doubt that phones sold through Trisoft would fall under the group sale. But I could be mistaken.
Provided we get answers on the warranty thing from Openmoko, I think that's our best bet.

{Jan de Haan 05/05} Ok, let's take a quick vote (btw, any reseller who is interested in taking 10 way orders can extend this table):

{Jan de Haan 07/05} I'll vote to wait until there are actually phones shipping, until that time, the more people we gather here, and maybe other dealers, the better the deal we get(I hope).

{Theo Martens 08/05}
Well, I want to have the phone as soon as possible. The best deal ever isn't my main concern.

{Marcel de Jong 13/05}
I've been browsing the mailing list, and found this post from Openmoko's Steve. Group sales have 28 days of DOA (Dead On Arrival) coverage, and single sales have 14 days of DOA coverage. Which I think is reasonable. BTW, I don't think there will be a better deal than the $369 per phone for the 10-pack.
We currently have enough people to fill 2 10-packs, which is awesome!
What we do need to figure out are the import costs, and the shipping costs. (it's shipped via UPS, if I recall correctly from the mailing list.)

Christph Pulster wrote:> about 10 pack orders - we try to be cheaper than the 10-order-> pack-price ! so no need to collect ten local buyers.This sounds so good...! I'm waiting for official news (and maybe infos
about the gifts too)...

I checked their webpage and they advertise with OpenMoko Freerunner 299 eur

{Jeroen van de Nieuwenhof 22/05} I checked their website too and it says 'Sobald der Freerunner wirklich lieferbar ist, ist er an dieser Stelle mit konkretem Preis zu finden und real bestellbar.' Which could mean that the price will be something other than 299 euro.

{Michel van Horssen 22/05} I like the pulster deal a lot, even if they are the same price as buying the 10 pack in the US the warranty part is a lot better seeing Germany is next door to us. Only thing is that you would mis out on the pouch and headset, dunno if that's such a great loss. And they say they will be going under the price of the US 10 pack order if you order the 10 from them. So maybe a vote on yes or no to the pouch/headset deal? Maybe we should check if with Pulster a group order of 10+ will always give the discount. Like 22 will get the same discount and that we are not forced in getting groups of ten people.

{Michel van Horssen 22/05} I wrote an e-mail to pulster with the questions so I will post the answer here when I get one.

{Theo Martens 24/05}
The pouch and headset are not that important IMO. I guess most join the group sale for convenience and reduce cost. But maybe I'm wrong.

Marco Trevisan (Treviño) wrote [to Pulster - Ed.]:>> 1. Do you know when you'll be approximately able to define a price?>> 2. The Freerunner will be shipped with extra goodies (generally>> given only to people buying a 10-pack (ie: pouch and headset)?>

From Pulster [Ed.]

> Price fix ASAP I have the units in own hands/stocks.> 299-319 eur is really realistic.> > All goodies included at PULSTER !> > Also can be bought a lot accessories extra very soon (debug board, pens, > cases etc)> > you see, I will make all your wishes true :)

{Michel van Horssen 26/05} Yeah, read that message in the weekend, no reply to my mail at this moment but seeing this message straight from pulster I would say that we should buy directly from pulster as a group. Warranty wise it's better as well.

399 U.S. dollars is about 253 Euros and including VAT that would become 301.07 Euro so pulster with their price being 299 Euro (see below) has a good price and for 10 and more there is a discount just like in the US. I would propose to take the dutch group sale to Pulster.

The following mail from Chis Pulster was on the list also.

I am Chris from pulster.eu - my hello to this great community.
May I add some points from my side:
- Freerunner - ready to order ASAP it is available. We do not
take pre-orders of items we dont have in hands. For a one-time info-
mail once the Freerunner is ready to order, please just email me
mailto: christoph@pulster.de
- we aim a Freerunner price tag of 299 EUR incl. VAT
- shipping worldwide with DHL, Europa 15 EUR, World 30 EUR postage
- soon we offer accessories for Freerunner like spare batterie, charger,
Headset, pouch and also the debug-board
- group-sales make local communities, that is wonderful. I am happy to
sell Freerunner separately or in packages.
Many thanks,
Chris

{Eric Spierings 26/05}
Indeed let's take the dutch group sale to Pulster. We are with 22 so we should be able to make a good deal regarding the goodies. And in that way no-one has to take any financial risk.

{Michel van Horssen 28/05} My guess is, that for a group buy at pulster there is still one entity needed for buying the devices. The thing is that with pulster, as with the US deal, the waranty should be per person and not named for the buying entity.

I don't think that we need to do the 'group buy' at Pulster. You can just buy the device at 299 a piece there. I would like to have the pouch though, if they can assure me that the pouch and other goodies would be included in the deal (because they of course could make a number of 'groupbuys' for the entire customer base), then count me in.--MadJo

Your absolutly right on this one, been thinking about it and the possible discount we would be getting would wasted on shipping within the Netherlands again. Like you said, if there are goodies involved it's a different deal of course :) . --Michel van Horssen

So let's start negotiating with Pulster regarding the goodies. We can bring in 22 customers, so he has something to win. It might be important to know whether Pulster takes credit card payments. I cannot find that option on their webpage and an electronic banktransfer will add another 15 (?) euro.Eric Spierings

Bank payments to germany are free of charge, at least for my bank (Rabobank).{Sander Hoentjen}

We do not accept any other payment option like PayPal, Reembourse/Cash-on-delivery (COD) payments,
direct CreditCard payments, any kind of cheques, western union, postal money orders, cash. Please dont
ask, we do not accept none of this options thanks to a very few but very expensive scams.

Nice double negative in there, btw. But still, 299+15 is less than 350 or 400. ;) --MadJo

If it is going to be a group sale (if pulster provides the goodies) it would be (discounted price * 22 + transfer rate + (21 * shipping within Holland)) Michel van Horssen

Are you assuming that we'd get a discounted price when we order in bulk? I have not seen any evidence that Pulster will lower the price even more, when done like that. But indeed, we'd have 22 * whatever-price-the-freerunner-will-get-at-Pulster + shipping costs... but then we are back at the discussion of how to deal with the warranty. Will Pulster give separate invoices for each of the phones in the pack? --MadJo

{Michel van Horssen 02/06} Okay I got an answer from Chris Pulster. I had 2 main questions that he answered and they were 1. Will the pouch and other goodies be included with a group sale as would be if we were to buy in the states. 2. Is a group sale, like in the states, limited to groups of ten or will the discount be for all phones bought in bulk. This is what he had to say:

about your question: at the moment we dont know about pouch/headsets
included or not. I will tell you a more reliable answer if Freerunners
are in stocks.
my discount system and sales are full flexibel (no ten-pack limitations)
let us talk and we find a nice offer for the dutch OpenMoko community !
Beste Gruesse aus Leimen,
Christoph Pulster

We will have to take a look at what the discount will be and if it is worth it considering we will have extra shipping cost in holland.

If the shipping costs will be too high, i would be willing to pick the phones up myself, if my expenses are covered. We have to figure out further distribution though. {Jeroen van de Nieuwenhof 03/06}

{Atilla Filiz 19/06} Don't we have a chance for direct shipping from Taiwan? The phones are produced there anyway.

{Michel van Horssen 20/06} We could but the problem would be that we would be buying it for consumer prices where Pulster buys a whole lot, and being a reseller pays a reseller price, or better yet a distributors price. So my bet is that we would be better of getting it from pulster than from Taiwan because that would not be much cheaper then getting it from the States.

{Atilla Filiz 22/06} Any news from Pulster or any other possible importer yet?

{Michel van Horssen 25/06} I got some news from Christoph just now but am waiting for permission to post it here, nothing earth chattering but just want his permission seeing it is a private e-mail. I'll keep you posted.

Okay this is the e-mail Christopher from pulster.de wrote to me this afternoon:

- our price of 299 EUR for Openmoko Freerunner is already rock-bottom, so we can not make further discounts, my apologises. What we can offer is free shipping
worldwide if you order 10 units or more at once.
- delivery time: same day money cleares we ship with registered and insured DHL airmail parcel. Transit time inside Europe is c.3 days, outside Europe 5 days.
- customs: inside EU community there is no hassle with customs and no taxes/VAT will be added. Its all included our price of 299 eur.
Outside EU community (Switzerland, Norway, USA, Asia) we will reduce German VAT giving a buying price of 249 EUR excl. VAT. Please note your local VAT will be added.
- warranty: we give full 2 years warranty period. Please note, this is legal law for European business and compare it with own imports from Asia/USA.
For warranty issues we are happy to include a separate invoice for each person of the GroupSale.
- accessories included: its identical to the single unit order. Any other accessories (Cases/Headset etc.) can be ordered in our shop www.pulster.eu - we already have stocks.

My first reaction was that seeing this it would be better to order as an individual because the only benefit of the free shipping would be lost because we would have to re-distribute it in Holland so that would add some shipping costs again. That's what I wrote to Chris and he replied that another benefit of a group order is that a group order has precedence before a shop sale. So My guess is ( and I hope to get that confirmed by Chris ASAP ) that if we as a group order at pulster.de before the shop opens, those phones will be reserved for us. When you order as an individual there is a chance you will miss out on the first batch and would have to wait until Chris gets another batch of phones.

So my advice would be, if we want to get our hands on a Openmoko FreeRunner as one of the first in Holland we would need to buy as a group. Again, we, Open Source Nieuws Nederland, are willing to be the mediator. The price would be the Euro 299 plus shipping costs within Holland and the money needs to be in our bank account before we pay pulster.de we can not afford to pay in advance. How do we communicate? Should I open an e-mail adres fot this? Do any of you want to do the group thing with pulster, or buy as an individual or take your money to the states?

SeeYa,
Michel

{Nico Veenkamp 26/06}. I am willing to group my order together with the rest using Open Source Nieuws Nederland as intermediate. Specifically to have the priority advantage of the group order mentioned by Michel to get my hands as soon as possible on the Neo FreeRunner. I would suggest to Michel to put order details on this page and open a specific email adres to receive orders.

I'm also in on that groupsale. Too bad it doesn't include the goodie bag, but that doesn't matter much. :) I'd suggest setting up an email address. You do need address details from the participants. :) Or do you prefer to set a date on which the Neos are handed to everyone in person? :) [ MadJo 08:40, 26 June 2008 (UTC) ]

{Jeroen van de Nieuwenhof 26/06}Count me in on the group sale too. My main interest is to get the neo as soon as possible and to have an individual tax receipt. Is that possible when i join in on the group sale?

{Michel van Horssen 26/06} Okay, The following will happen. I will try and mail everyone on the group sale page (as long as people are using a registered username with e-mail address) and this talk page (when not on the group sale page) with the specifics, I will also mail to the community mail list with that message. Keep in mind, this will all take some time because first we need to give people a chance to "sign up", then to transfer money and then for us to transfer all that money to pulster. Then (when pulster has the money) the phones will be send to us and then they will be send to the people. So do not expect them to be with you within a few days after making the money transfer to us, if you want that then try your luck by buying it on your own and hope that there will enough in stock at pulster.de before you get there.

We will be sending the phones with insured postage, this will put an extra Euro 7,95 on top of the Pulster.de price of Euro 299. It could be we have to do some extra wrapping, I'm waiting for an answer on that part by Pulster. We still need 10 or more buyers so if that number is not reached it is everyone for his/her self.

Maybe we need to put something on the group sale page?

{Jeroen van de Nieuwenhof 26/06} Is it possible to verify at Pulster if they put individual receipts with the phones, or they just send one for the whole group?

{Michel van Horssen 26/06} To quote from the above mentioned mail from Pulster.de "For warranty issues we are happy to include a separate invoice for each person of the GroupSale" So that's okay.

{Arjan Veenstra 27/06} According to messages on the community list Pulster will start shipping on the 4th of July, we probably should have our order in before that, otherwise were better of just ordering on our own. The savings has been reduced to around EUR 8,- on shipping. I'm not sure that alone makes it worth the hassle, and they are taking orders right now...

(Christ van Willegen 27/06} I'm not sure what to do right now... We're at 29 of 30 now, but I am really tempted to pre-order now... Any advice we can give each other?

{Arjan Veenstra 27/06} To be honest, I think anyone who wants it asap should just order it from pulster. The benefits of a group purchase there are just 8,- and it will take time to get it all setup and to get the distribution done.
A group order may just be worthwhile when getting 10packs from the states, the cost will be roughly the same, but it will include the goodies (and loose the warranty), maybe there are 10 people who consider that worth the effort.
Unless someone convinces me to do otherwise I will just place my own order with pulster by the end of today...

{Michel van Horssen 27/06} Okay, my thoughts exactly, after reading the message in te mailing list today from Christohper and thinking about it and reading your remarks, I have to agree. Organizing all this including transfering the money to our account and then the rest of the process, you are better of ordering dirct from Pulster, and the fact that you can order extra's as well. So as far as I'm concerned the group sale is of and I would advice everyone to order at pulster.de

So I will NOT be sending out e-mails today to organize all of this. It's everyone for his/her self. :) Start ordering. :) Maybe a message stating this should be put on the group sale page?

{Atilla Filiz 27/06} The resellers have started to ship and some even finished their first stocks. If there is a group already formed, count me in. Otherwise, it seems it's best as "every gentleman for himself".

{Jeroen van de Nieuwenhof 27/06} I just placed an individual order at Pulster.de, so i won't be joining you one the group sale. I'm trying to get the phone before the 12th of july, so i'm in a bit of a hurry.

{Michel van Horssen 27/06} I put an order in with Pulster as well this afternoon. The price is right.

{Michel van Horssen 28/06} As was to be expected we would never have had any chance to be quick enough to get a group sale together for Pulster. If you look at the sales page now for the Freerunner the next order round is for the 25th, I only have an automatic order reply for my personal order, not the human one so I'm not even certain of the 05-07 batch. Time will tell. Hope the others kept on reading this page.

After reading the comments here, I too decided to place an individual order. On one hand it's sad, because it does form communities. :) MadJo 14:37, 29 June 2008 (UTC)

I agree. I am going to place an individual order too. As I don't think I could get Freerunner before my vacation, so it doesn't make any sense for me trying to get this from the first batch --VreVo 09:31, 30 June 2008 (UTC)

Canada

GTA (Toronto)

{ --Argo 03:51, 17 May 2008 (UTC) }
For group 1 it looks like they have actually gotten the 10 orders in? or am I them adding up wrong?

Macedonia

{--Neutrino 9:27 AM, 01 July 2008 } When should We place order at Openmoko store? Macedonia will be recognize as option to select country where goods should be delivered, I beleive? I'm asking this because at German store [3] there are isn't case!?
If the phone concept is to be open, it should be open for everyone on the planet! It must be possible to buy it from anywhere!? So, I personally beleive that openmoko team could provide this solution to us! We where waiting for such a long time for phone mass market release date, and it would be bad if I can not have it.
Thanks to Openmoko team and continue with excellent work!
In the future We will wait for new better software releases such as ASU images or new GTK+ images or FSO images or...
Best regards

Pavel Kovář>> best case is I would start to test phones around the first of june. Then
pack and ship.
1.6. začíná testovat telefony a potm je balit a odesílat.The factory made us do one more Pre MP run to maximize yield. basically you
build a XyZ phones. you test them, Xy% pass the test, and the factory says.
"good. can you reduce the test time and decrease the false negatives on the
test software, because that bad phone really was good." arrg. Ale toto nějak moc nechápu.

Doplňující informace

Vyjádření Pulster.de na objednávku většího množství telefonů:

Hello,
on OpenMoko wiki they announced: "Every 10 pack, will come with
a box of stuff. 10 pouches and 10 head sets." Will this offer
also be available in your shop? Some discount and bonus gadgets?
I already want to order 20-30 phones to Czech Republic, so I am
trying to find the best way, how to order this amount. Either
from USA or from EU.
Thank you, Martin Senkerik

Hello,
thanks a lot for asking. Right now we dont have Freerunner in
stock, so no idea about earphones/pouches, sorry.
I am happy to provide Czech users with OpenMokos. No customs,
no paperwork, I have a lot CZ customers.
Allow me to put you on the info list once it is avalaible and you
get clear infos about all. We can work out free shipping and
maybe some goodies.
heres the standard info text:
The new modell is called "Freerunner" (version GTA02).
It will be available end of June 2008. We try to aim 300-350 EUR
sales price.
Once it's ready to ship, you willfind it in our shop.
We do not make pre-orders of items we dont have in hands,
so please understand. Once the Freerunner is in stock, ready to
ship, we will send you a one-time info mail (we do not send
you any spam, dont worry).
Of course we are happy you bookmark us and come back to check
for the nice Freerunner. Please find a small datasheet here:
http://www.pulster.de/info/pdas/openmoko/freerunner-flyer.pdf
Beste Gruesse aus Leimen,
Christoph Pulster

Mumbai (India)

Ready to order but need at least 50% confirmed orders.
Local pickup will be free.
Per piece price 17100/- (380$ * 45).
This will include shipping cost from Openmoko to Mumbai.
Outside Mumbai customers can add local shipping cost.