Wow, this whole idea is fantastically stupid in so many ways. In a sense I admire the gall of whichever company sold this technology, as they must have known that it couldn't possibly work. No doubt they'll roll out some ad-hoc solution to the magazine workaround (earning themselves another hearty payday as all the machines are updated). This can be repeated for each new workaround until everyone involved retires rich and their customer is too embarrassed to admit that the whole thing was obviously a waste of money.

Eh, actually they don't want it to work. This way they can say "we tried to stop it from selling to kids!", but when the machine dispenses anyway they can make some extra bucks. It could easily be a way to avoid the age limits on who they can sell to.

The whole idea of cigarette vending machines is itself fantastically stupid if there is an age cutoff for the legal purchase of cigarettes. Can you just imagine what Japan would be like if marijuana were legal there?

Cigarette vending machines in bars, casinos, adult-entertainment establishments, and other placed where Junior can't get in without bribing the doorman, er, I mean presenting a convincing fake id, are no problem.

If they really wanted to handle this with a machine, they would make you insert your driver's license, tell you to close either your left eye or right eye or make some other facial expression at random, then compare the faces. They would double-check with the driver's license database to make sure the face on the license matched the face on record.

Thankfully, we aren't quite to this 1984 scenario yet, but this is coming.

According to the article, if you fail the visual check you have to insert your license. My question would be why don't they just always require the license? If you're old enough to smoke you should have a license. No idea how it works over there but I thought you could get a "non driving" driver's license here in the states to use as an ID.

I suppose this also says something about how many people there smoke, if they have to have cigarette vending machines around every corner. Here there are no such things anymore and I don't see anyone rioting over it. One would think the only reason they have those vending machines right now is to sell to underage smokers. Which is probably why the whole issue is under attack in the first place.

Anyone have any stats on what effect the age verification systems are having on cigarette sales from machines? I wouldn't be surprised to see sales drop 80%. For the sheer convenience and that most smokers are 1 or 2 pack a day addiction, you'd think most reasonable smokers would be buying cartains, not singles. Prices in the machines tend to be higher than by the cartain too,

There's the main flaw in your logic. Anyone who pays (way too much) for the privilege of habitually inhaling toxic smoke and gases (which is contrary to any living creature's survival instinct) cannot be described as "reasonable". Reason doesn't come into the equation for estimating how nicotine addicts will profit the tobacco companies.

Somebody once told me that it's not the days in your life that count, but the life in your days. Is your entire goal in life to live to the oldest age possible? If so, you should probably avoid driving cars or being near major roads, stay away from computers to prevent blindness and spend most of your day maintaining whatever the currently accepted level of aerobic exercise is.

Fuck that. Life is about having some fun too. If I enjoy inhaling toxic smoke, then maybe that is the way I want to have the fun in my life, and if me choosing what I want to do for fun doesn't match your "reason" or Big Brother's "reason" then fuck you both.

If I enjoy inhaling toxic smoke, then maybe that is the way I want to have the fun in my life, and if me choosing what I want to do for fun doesn't match your "reason" or Big Brother's "reason" then fuck you both.

If you have the mental faculties to be able to properly weigh the risks of the actions you choose against their benefits to you – whether that be using a computer all day or smoking – and there are no social costs inherent in your actions, then by all means, do what you want.

But society has decided that if you are under a certain age you do not have these required decision making capabilities, and so you are restricted from making the choice. That is all.

If a child really wanted to inhale toxic fumes its parents could make that choice by going to the cigarette machine and buying the fags, but the child itself can't. Seems reasonable to me.

(This post restricts itself to the narrow issue of age restrictions and ignores facets such as taxes on "undesireable" goods)

Fuck that. Life is about having some fun too. If I enjoy inhaling toxic smoke, then maybe that is the way I want to have the fun in my life, and if me choosing what I want to do for fun doesn't match your "reason" or Big Brother's "reason" then fuck you both.

I hear this a lot. I don't want to argue with you because I don't believe in being someone else's mother. However, I assure you that the life in your days once you develop emphysema and heart disease is going to be both long AND miserable.

I see a similar trend in just about all of the replies to this post, so I'm just picking this one to reply to.

1) Think of the children. Sure, a parent has the responsibility to provide a safe environment for their children. Let's solve this in ways that don't make generalizations and obstruct freedoms. Let's give all kids free health care. No parent wants their children to be sick, and if it's completely free for them to get help, they will give it to them (or else they have other responsibility issues). If

Whoops, you just made the assumption that survival instincts are based off of long-term cost/benefit ratio. On the contrary, most instincts (fight-or-flight, sexual attraction, whatnot) are based off of estimated short-term benefits. Hence why people continue to smoke...

it satisfies an immediate craving (if you're already addicted)

nicotine gives a nice little buzz

it is perceived to reduce stress

Regardless of its truth and long-term effect, the "inhaling toxic smoke" argument borders on propoganda. It completely ignores one side of the argument.

Well, sure, if you're already hooked, then your points hold true. However, you truly have to be a follow-the-crowd dumb-ass to force your way through the initial phases of smoking in order to become tolerant of the practice and then become an addict. Unlike like other addictions (such as chocolate, whippets, or booze) which are *initially* pleasurable, a first time smoker's response of usually one of distaste.

Ever wonder why so many movies or TV shows portray this scene:
1. Some bad boy/girl wannabe lights up their first smoke
2. They choke and cough, being generally shocked at how awful it is
3. They are then ridiculed by the veteran bad boys/girls who do smoke

This is such a common theme because -- wait for it -- the short-term instincts of animals tells them that smoke (or its source) is hazardous to the animal's health or well-being.

I'm about as anti nanny state as most people get. The poster who offered me the friendly "fuck you" totally missed the point. I don't wish to curb such self destructive behavior -- more power to those who enjoy it, so long as it doesn't negatively affect my own health, taxes, or insurance premiums. I just want smokers to acknowledge their habit is about as rational as shitting in their own water supply or jumping from cliffs.

have to be a follow-the-crowd dumb-ass to force your way through the initial phases of smoking in order to become tolerant of the practice

Just to be a jackass, let me point out that for a girl, it's generally somewhat painful the first time she has sex. By your logic, most girls should have sex once, see how bad it is, and then never do it again unless they're some kind of follow-the-crowd dumbasses.

They don't always require a license because most people don't have licenses. Getting a license is a multi-month, several thousand dollar (or several hundred thousand yen, actually) ordeal. People that don't live in rural areas don't need cars and in congestion choked cities, cars are mostly luxury items.

The article is pretty skewed. The real story is that Taspo [wikipedia.org] is starting July 1st. Taspo is a card based system that doesn't use any age verification. It's being deployed nationwide. You have to apply for a Taspo card using some form of state-issued photo identification. Maybe there's a weak link in the application procedure, but only one card is issued per person and cards that have been lost or are being abused can be disabled remotely.
The article says that there will be 4000 age verification machines (in a country of 130 million), but I've never seen one. Every day, I see dozens of machines that say Taspo will be required starting July 1st. All the smokers I know have Taspo cards.

That's true....if you really know their of drinking age. PLCB has been cracking down alot here on stuff like that. Bars in my area have resorted to either NOT selling tobacco or having it behind the bar.

Can you just imagine what Japan would be like if marijuana were legal there?

It would be a huge improvement. I love it here in Tokyo, but sometimes it would be nice to burn one with some Japanese friends just to chill out. So many people here are overly-stressed, anxious, and unwilling to talk about it. Sure, those things are cultural, but they're also the sorts of things pot actually helps alleviate.

What's better? The high rate of suicide in Japan? How about the high incidence of alcohol poisoning? I fail to see how pot would make things worse.

Unfortunately, MacArthur made sure that Japanese demonize marijuana and think of it as more dangerous than heroin or cocaine.

The funny thing is that a lot of young people talk this way. And yet when they get older, they don't start offing themselves. Turns out that while a lot of people talk about how they'd rather die than be decrepit, when they're actually faced with the choice nearly all of them choose life.

It's funny when people try to create a complex system in which someone finds a tiny, simple hole. On a related note, wouldn't it be a better idea (and probably more cost effective than continual update to the security) to have some sort of ID scanner in addition to the cameras?

They are Japanese.You really think THEY didn't come up with that technical idea by now?

TFA:

As part of the age-verification system, most of Japan's 570,000 cigarette vending machines are being outfitted with RFID readers that check the purchaser's Taspo age-verification card. Smokers without a Taspo card can now either buy their cigarettes in person over the counter or use one of 4,000 special machines equipped with face-recognition systems (these machines do not require Taspo cards). More face-recognition machines are on the way, according to vending machine manufacturer Fujitaka, who developed the face-recognition hardware.

no, the truth of the matter is, they're just panties scented with the popular perfumes that are in vogue with highschool girls, with a statement that they're used' but it's rteally just marketing, it's much cheaper to buy perfume, spray it in a pair of cheap panties and package it in a machine as 'used' panties. actually using used panties would be gross, it's all about the 'image' people think they're really used by high school girls, and the perfume makes the buyer shell out the equivalent $80 got a $4 item, they think because it's perfumed that it's been warn, especially since the machine has big signs saying so!

most likely the item was dreamed up by some yakuza thug, of how to turn $4 into $80. I bet it's quite profitable.

Fool the system by giving it false information. The recognition program never gets a chance to work.

BTW it is easy to fix this if the machine asks the people to move. This will work... for about a week, until they start creating animations of old people that can move on command for EEEs or other such netbooks.

more likely temperature. When taking a urine sample for example, one of the things the tester does immediately is check the temperature of the sample. This helps prevent people from bringing in a medicine bottle etc with a 'clean' sample to drop in the cup. if it measures much below 95 deg, they will know you brought it in.

Reminds me of something I read awhile back, guy tried this stunt and didn't get caught until later. "Mr Doe you'll be happy to know you passed your drug test. The doctors also felt they should inform you that you are approximately two months pregnant." oops...

So expect thermal (I.R.) sensors. Most digital cameras (CCDs) are highly IR sensitive anyway if you remove their IR filter, so this has to be a really easy mod for them to make. Won't be terribly easy to fool. A bit like those thermometers used to measure high temperatures of materials. They usually have a red laser light dot shine on the target, but that's purely for aiming. It shows where the IR sensor in the test unit is focused on. They can do this same thing with the face presented to measure the surface temp of the image. (without needing the red laser dot since the target is being presented in a known location)

unless you stuff the container in some orifice so its completely contained within your body, good luck with that. Popular option, doesn't work. Stuffing it between your legs or under your armpit for example, holds it at best 85 degrees.

So expect thermal (I.R.) sensors. Most digital cameras (CCDs) are highly IR sensitive anyway if you remove their IR filter, so this has to be a really easy mod for them to make.

Wrong end of the IR spectrum. People just aren't hot enough for CCDs to detect the IR, you need something not far short of red hot for a normal CCD to see it. You really do need those expensive detectors and optics if you want to tell the difference between paper at 20 Celsius and a person's skin at 33 Celsius.

You can get the same effect as two eyes by rapidly shifting focus from far way to close and analyzing the differences between them to gauge depth.

It's not quite the same effect. I'm assuming you mean looking for sharp edges and observing how their "blur radii" respond to changes in the focal distance. It still lacks true depth perception, and I can't imagine that working well for a smoothly-curved surface like a face.

it visually is looking for people that are clearly in their 30s+. Just like the people at the quick-e-mart, if you are borderline, you have to show your ID. These machines simply ask for your ID if they cannot verify your age as being safely old enough.

As part of the age-verification system, most of Japan's 570,000 cigarette vending machines are being outfitted with RFID readers that check the purchaser's Taspo age-verification card. Smokers without a Taspo card can now either buy their cigarettes in person over the counter or use one of 4,000 special machines equipped with face-recognition systems (these machines do not require Taspo cards). More face-recognition machines are on the way, according to vending machine manufacturer Fujitaka, who developed the face-recognition hardware.

They have over half a million cigarette vending machines.They equip 4000 with a face recognition thingie.

Sounds more like a field test to me.Expect the tech and the math coming out of this to be used in the next generation of face recognition systems.And what better way to test it than to use thousands of teenage addicts - with lots of spare time and very little care for rules and "conventional way of thinking".

And such valuable input they give...

When the reporter went to check out the new age-verifying machines after they were introduced in the Osaka area in June, he soon discovered that the machines equipped with face-recognition cameras would let him buy cigarettes when he held up a 15-centimeter (6-in) wide magazine photo of a man who looked to be in his 50s.

The reporter also went to Kobe, where different face recognition hardware is being used. There, he bought cigarettes using an 8-centimeter (3-in) wide magazine photo of a female celebrity in her 30s. He also reportedly tried to use a 3-centimeter (1-in) wide photo, but the machines rejected it

... you have to put a debit card into the machine for age verification. (of course you can pay with it too)Why didn't the Japanese use this simple idea? It may not be perfect, but far more effective than their "solution".

They did. Read this thread more accurate. A possible solution would be to place digital photo on RFID chip and let face-recognition software compare both faces. But if a kid wants to buy cigarettes, it will buy it. By taking his father's RFID and printing his photo, for example. The cigarette machines are the real problem. Disassemble them, make only a few authorized sellers sell cigarettes anyway and make sure those few do have strict age controls. Problem But tobacco companies' lobby will do anything to prevent it. So will do nicotine-addicted to get another cigarette.

So I don't know why any trust is given to a machine to guess someone's age based on the appearance of their face. A lot of retailers I've seen have a sign posted at the till that says they will ask for ID if you look under 35. 35! This enormous margin of error is due to the fact that you really can't tell if someone is over or under 18 without some seriously obvious clue. I was 30 before people stopped guessing my age to be 20. My neice was able to get service in a bar once at age 14, and it could easily be seen why.

They are Japanese.You really think THEY didn't come up with that technical idea by now?

TFA:

As part of the age-verification system, most of Japan's 570,000 cigarette vending machines are being outfitted with RFID readers that check the purchaser's Taspo age-verification card. Smokers without a Taspo card can now either buy their cigarettes in person over the counter or use one of 4,000 special machines equipped with face-recognition systems (these machines do not require Taspo cards). More face-recognition machines are on the way, according to vending machine manufacturer Fujitaka, who developed the face-recognition hardware.

there fixed that for you. you do realize the impact of magazines on widespread society, and the popularity of various talking heads and celebrities, especially this 'tween' star trend... the forbes top 100 celeb list had like 10 'tween's on it.

I'm one of those adults. I'm 28 and if I walk around with a backpack on I will get pulled over for smoking. been pulled over for curfew, ditching class etc. I would be pretty annoyed if I had to carry around a fake beard just to buy cigs.

Wouldn't they be a problem in small bars that are hot and lots of people? The bar I go to is relatively small, and it's always warm in there, probably near 75 degrees frequently. And the cigarette machine is by the pool tables that have lots of people around them, some people even put their beer on top of the cigarette machine til they are done their shot.