September 18, 2012

During the freewheeling conversation, a donor asked Romney how the "Palestinian problem" can be solved. Romney immediately launched into a detailed reply, asserting that the Palestinians have "no interest whatsoever in establishing peace, and that the pathway to peace is almost unthinkable to accomplish."

Romney spoke of "the Palestinians" as a united bloc of one mindset, and he said: "I look at the Palestinians not wanting to see peace anyway, for political purposes, committed to the destruction and elimination of Israel, and these thorny issues, and I say there's just no way."

The full context is also there (along with video) if you scroll down.

What do you think of the way Romney speaks in this video? Obviously, the damaging material will be picked out and exploited by his opponents. That's the way the game is played. But some people might prefer "secret" Romney to the Romney we're used to seeing. He's more direct and clear, less stammering and reticent. And he's long had a problem with seeming inauthentic. Maybe it's time to roll out The Secret Romney.

I kind of like these little glimpses of Romney unchained. He's not saying anything particularly radical, though. I also found the clip with him talking about his horses appealing too, though, so I'm not really the audience he's worried about. The 47% thing was a misstep, though. Less direct impact, I think, than Obama's bitter clingers remark, since Romney's probably correct that he can't win over people who are on the dole (though he conflated people who pay no or negative tax, which includes some working poor, with the idle, who are on the dole -- that's a division he should be exploiting not eliding). But Democrats are working to make it part of their broader narrative of indifference to the poor, and in that sense, it may move some voters who do work and do bear some of the tax burden.

"But Democrats are working to make it part of their broader narrative of indifference to the poor, and in that sense, it may move some voters who do work and do bear some of the tax burden"

Doubtful. The outrageous outraging outrage is from people like our friendly trolls, who who'd never vote for Romney anyway. Other folks are far more likely to listen to what Romney said and, like Althouse, say "Um, that seems about right..."

Anyway, the alternative strategy, saying nothing about anything and then apologizing for not saying anything, doesn't seem likely to work well.

Considering that the Palestinians are now divided into two camps (Fatah & Hamas) that hate each other as much as they hate the "Zionist entity" & that ANYONE in Hamas controlled Gaza who admitted Israel's right to exist in a public forum would be assassinated soon after, I'm having a hard time seeing what Romney got wrong here.

Israeli/Palestinian peace has been a wet dream for Western politicians as long as the 55 years I've been on this planet. Thanks to the Hamas/Fatah split, it's now further away than ever.

Anyway, the alternative strategy, saying nothing about anything and then apologizing for not saying anything, doesn't seem likely to work well.

I wouldn't say he should say nothing. I think, for example, that the Palestine thing will help him, on balance. With respect to the 47% remark, I'm fine with him saying things like that, just that if he's going to say things like that, he should be more careful about the distinctions between working and idle poor (and also retirees who are living off social security.) Of those three groups (working poor, idle poor, retirees), Republicans can expect to win retirees, can win over some working poor, and really have no chance at all of winning the idle poor.

Went to check just now to see where I got that phrase, "Idle poor," and it looks like I got it from the Poor Laws system. Well, that classification does not seem too far off. In targeting their electoral efforts, Republicans need to write off idle poor and vagrants. Everyone else, they can make a play for.

though he conflated people who pay no or negative tax, which includes some working poor, with the idle, who are on the dole -- that's a division he should be exploiting not eliding.

Very true. There are many hard working people who are NOT on food stamps or getting welfare who, through the tax code, end up not paying any or much income taxes. Those people have too much pride to take hand outs and represent the spirit of what America used to be. Work hard, take care of yourself and try to make your life and the lives of your children better. Those people also resent the professional permanent welfare classes and will very much resent being lumped into the same bucket with them.

Romney should encourage those people middle class aspiring and hard working people and stress that the government isn't here to 'take over your life' but should get out of the way.

Describing him as trashing one particular solution, when he's expressing doubt of there being any solution, is odd. Are they trying to get us to assume he's plumping for a one-state solution? A Final Solution?

Its good to hear a presidential candidate not lying about the Isreal-Palestinian situation. Obama promised us that he would solve it because Obama is the one. But, Obama has failed. The only thing that solved it was the wall constructed by Israel.

At least Romney accepts that it cannot be solved under the current circumstances.

I rather doubt that the mesured, hyper-cautious Romney campaign would have chosen to release this video, but I wonder if it won't turn out to be to their advantage that the Obamoids have done it for them. Much of what seems to generate such gleeful outrage among lefty commenters so far strikes me as material straight from the 'no-shit Sherlock' file, observations that are not particularly shocking, and I suspect fairly widely held. More to the point, much of this is likely to be consumed primarily by those of us who are political junkies to begin wtih, and thus are far less likely to find much of it surprising, or even particularly compelling.

What it WILL accomplish, however, is to move some of this conversation out front and center, and I doubt that will work to the Democrats advantage. Much like the Chicago teacher's union, many of the Democrat's sacred cows are unappealing, and forcing them (the Dems) to defend them will be a useful campaign strategy. The Palestinians aren't interested in peace? Quelle surprise!, but is this really a surprise to anyone who has watched the evening news anytime in oh, lets say the last 30 years? Many of Obama's supporters are depedent upon the government, don't pay taxes, etc.? Take a look at coverage of any Obama rally (the video of that twit claiming that Obama was going to pay her mortgage should get a lot of play) and you see it on display. Perhaps that will offend the usual suspects, but I suspect that they will be lonely in that circle of rage...

This. Like the Iranians, they want Israel "wiped off the map" but just the people. The Iranians maybe want the land and all the people on it gone forever. I don't think they really care about the non-Israeli Arabs that live in the area.

I read something else in the 47% thing. I'm sitting here thinking, what are they talking about? Why does some operative find this damaging? Oh, because it's mostly true and partially untrue. And the untrue part is going to piss people off. Who will be pissed off? The people who these statements do not apply. Those people are going, oh no, I am not a government tit sucker, I'm in this situation perforce not by my own choices, you bastard, I'll show you, I'll prove you wrong, I'll get a goddamn job just as soon as the president ... well, I guess I'll be voting for you then.

Althouse will be extremely happy when she no longer has to apologize for Romney.

Shiloh: I know we give you a hard time because you say stupid partisan things and otherwise demonstrate immature political thought, but you haven't been paying much attention to come up with that statement. Not even Garage, the king of the fact challanged, would be that wrong.

8,786,049 American workers are collecting federal disability insurance payments in September. That sets yet another record for the number of Americans on disability.

In August 1967, 74,767,000 Americans were working (according to the Bureau of Labor Statistics) and 1,152,861 were taking federal disability insurance (according to the Social Security Administration). That means that at that time there were about 65 Americans working for each worker collecting disability.

In August 2012, 142,101,000 Americans were working and 8,767,941 were on disability--meaning there were only 16.2 people working for each person collecting disability.

It is funny to watch the left wade into arguments the Republicans win regularly.

I was watching House Hunters International one day and they went to Israel. A young woman was looking to buy an apartment.

Where Americans might be looking for closet space and stainless steel appliances and maybe a terrace.

She was looking for some of these things, but most important was a bomb shelter in the apartment.

And heavy-duty window coverings.

Children are fitted for gas-masks. As they grow they trade them in for larger ones.

This is the way of life for Israelis.

I pray that someday they can live without fear for their lives on a daily basis. I pray they can turn those bomb shelters into storage rooms. I pray they don't ever have to fit their children with gas-masks.

This is part of a bigger picture. The Middle East is now exploding, despite Obama promising that anti-American animosity would die down disappear with his sucking up to the Muslim world. And, part of that has been to not publicly admit that the capital of Israel is Jerusalem. Rather, his Administration's apparent official policy has something to do with multi-party agreements and the U.N. Of course, Israel moved their capital there years ago.

Meanwhile the U.S. has three carrier groups in the Persian Gulf area, and the rest of our allies are doing likewise, in preparation for a possible attack on Iran by Israel, and Iran's avowed response of closing the Straights. The Israeli PM is coming to this country and was trying to meet with Obama to discuss this, but Obama is too busy playing golf and fund raising to meet with him.

And, yes, some of the Jewish vote is in play here - that of the more observant Jews who are invested in the survival of Israel as the Jewish homeland. I do know Jewish voters who voted for Obama last time, and this is the sort of thing that they take seriously, and may swing their vote.

Keep in mind that the Palestinians left their homes at the prodding of the Muslim states in the region, who promised them that they would get them back when they eliminated the Jews in Israel, and are kept mostly powerless by the same powers. It would have been fairly simple to give them land, in, say, Jordan, which is even more their homeland than Israel. But, that has never been on the table, because it is to the benefit of those powers to keep them powerless and their furment aimed at Israel.

In July, when the Israeli newspaper Haaretz asked Romney if he supports a two-state solution and the creation of a Palestinian state, he replied, "I believe in a two-state solution which suggests there will be two states, including a Jewish state."

It's getting hard to keep track of all the newspeak...gotcha & gaffe are now code for inconvenient truths, while inconvenient truth was (formerly?) the big lie. Oh, and crappy YouTube video is the new red herring.

The Palestinian governing despots have no interest in peace. True, because without the constant distraction of the evil Israelis, their power over the Palestinian people diminishes.

The Palestinian people would love the freedom to send their kids to school, to run a business, to live a good life. Why do we think people are fundamentally different from us because they happen to be under the thumb of shitty power-crazed despots? Does anyone really think that the Palestinian people really like living the way they do?

"[A]s a description of America today, Romney’s comment is a country-club fantasy. It’s what self-satisfied millionaires say to each other. It reinforces every negative view people have about Romney. Personally, I think he’s a kind, decent man who says stupid things because he is pretending to be something he is not — some sort of cartoonish government-hater. But it scarcely matters. He’s running a depressingly inept presidential campaign."

The Mittster is correct. It's not just the 47% who pay no taxes, but anyone who values their government handout more than the taxes they pay. Everyone should pay some taxes. As a corporation in CT no matter how much I may lose I have to pay at least $250!

Keep in mind that the Palestinians left their homes at the prodding of the Muslim states in the region, who promised them that they would get them back when they eliminated the Jews in Israel, and are kept mostly powerless by the same powers. It would have been fairly simple to give them land, in, say, Jordan, which is even more their homeland than Israel. But, that has never been on the table, because it is to the benefit of those powers to keep them powerless and their furment aimed at Israel.

Thanks, Bruce. You said it first, while I was polishing my own comment.

Come on, are guys seriously arguing that Bill Kristol is not a card carrying Republican hack. It can hardly be good news for Romney that someone so close to the Republican center is becoming so critical, to the point of suggesting that he drops out of the race.

Republicans need to write off idle poor and vagrants. Everyone else, they can make a play for.

The Alfred Doolittle contingent - "I'm one of the undeserving poor, that's what I am. . .I ain't pretending to be deserving. I'm undeserving; and I mean to go on being undeserving. I like it; and that's the truth."

It's funny when Stanley Holloway says it. It's not so much of a joke when a majority of the country says it.

The "two state" solution was Jordan and Israel. Unfortunately, the Palestinian leaders' lust for power was in competition with the existing government in Jordan and so they were forcefully contained and the people they purported to represent were ejected.

As for Israel, what is the statute of limitations on occupation through force? Why are Muslims not considered occupiers of that land? Why are Jews considered occupiers when accomplished through economic success and victories in defense?

Come on, are guys seriously arguing that Bill Kristol is not a card carrying Republican hack. It can hardly be good news for Romney that someone so close to the Republican center is becoming so critical, to the point of suggesting that he drops out of the race.

Yes, he is. He's part of the party hierarchy, which gave us Ford, Bush I, Dole, McCain, and Romney. Look how well that's worked.

I couldn't care less that Kristol said what he said, other than calling him a backstabbing POS. Notice how dems never do this?

It's time for a new paradigm. Go on the offensive, not only should Romney not take back what he said, he should double-down on it, and add more.

Come on, are guys seriously arguing that Bill Kristol is not a card carrying Republican hack. It can hardly be good news for Romney that someone so close to the Republican center is becoming so critical, to the point of suggesting that he drops out of the race.

Bill Kristol is one of those - like David Brooks - who are continually at pains to insist that they're Republicans, yes, but they're not that kind of Republican. They used to be called "Rockefeller Republicans." The TEA Party calls them RINOs.

Christopher in MA said...Bill Kristol is one of those - like David Brooks - who are continually at pains to insist that they're Republicans, yes, but they're not that kind of Republican. They used to be called "Rockefeller Republicans." The TEA Party calls them RINOs.

I am giving you Brooks, but Kristol was pushing Palin and is now pushing Rubio. He is in a completely different class to Brooks.

It would have been fairly simple to give them land, in, say, Jordan, which is even more their homeland than Israel. But, that has never been on the table, because it is to the benefit of those powers to keep them powerless and their furment aimed at Israel.

If you give them Welfare Reform which destroyed welfare as we knew it by imposing work requirements, quite good, actually. Yes, it was basically just a Republican initiative that Clinton went along with, but the fact that he went along with it at all tells us that there are Democrats who care about actual results and actually helping the poor. Not just that touchy-feely rubbish where we're supposed to pour money into a failed system to show how much we care.

In July, when the Israeli newspaper Haaretz asked Romney if he supports a two-state solution and the creation of a Palestinian state, he replied, "I believe in a two-state solution which suggests there will be two states, including a Jewish state." etch-a-sketch..

To favor a 2-state solution does not preclude a belief that the Palestinians are not interested in a 2-state solution. It also happens to be my own opinion. I see nothing contradictory about Romney's statement, which simply illustrates that Romney is realistic on the Israeli/Palestinian situation.

@garage,Dems/libs want to exploit the less fortunate for political power to redistribute tax dollars to themselves and their cronies, whereas Willard/Reps/cons want to increase prosperity for everyone. It's that basic.

"@garage,Dems/libs want to exploit the less fortunate for political power to redistribute tax dollars to themselves and their cronies, whereas Willard/Reps/cons want to increase prosperity for everyone. It's that basic."

Yes, it was basically just a Republican initiative that Clinton went along with, but the fact that he went along with it at all tells us that there are Democrats who care about actual results and actually helping the poor.

Clinton gets points for doing the obvious right thing, albeit against his will. What a gem.

That's not much of a track record, but admittedly it is all the Dems have to brag about: "We Were Actually Into Solving Problems Like Republicans Once".

Once.

It just took Newt channeling Tommy Thompson, - both of them uncaring bastards by definition, remember- to get it through Congress.

Has Obama ever explained why they ignored the advance warnings on the embassy attacks or are they still not taking questions on that?

Apparently, they are still in denial there (and that isn't the river by one of the embassies that was just attacked). The ambassador to the U.N. was confidently stating on her round of talk shows that the "demonstrations" were spontaneous, despite statements to the contrary by the president of Libya, etc., that the mortars were sighted in by experienced crews, etc. Jay Carney today apparently is now trying to walk that back a bit, refusing to say that the attacks were preplanned, but only that they were "under investigation".

"In a way, it’s not even mostly Romney’s fault. It’s the fault of the party and movement that introduced and spread this toxic propaganda in the first place. When Romney is licking his wounds on Nov. 7, that party and movement will fire all its arrows at him. He’ll deserve a lot of them. But they will have buried him with the ignorance and rage they demanded he adopt. His chief crime will have been his weakness in failing to confront them."

Hayden - "And, yes, some of the Jewish vote is in play here - that of the more observant Jews who are invested in the survival of Israel as the Jewish homeland. I do know Jewish voters who voted for Obama last time, and this is the sort of thing that they take seriously, and may swing their vote."

=============Save Florida, and Florida is a BIG exception, the Jewish vote in Presidential elections is small and basically meaningless (outside Florida) because it is in solid Blue States.What is not insignificant is Jewish money and influence, notably in the media, law, and finance.Jewish money and clout matter. One year, AIPAC proudly noted that over half the money the DNC got was from Jewish donors and almost all the Jewish media pundits had lined up for Bill Clinton.

Some things have changed..not just Dems tilting away from Israel..but other components of the Democrat Base showing increased hostility towards Jews on other matters. Their association with the financial meltdown is an OWS talking point, and how much the Jews can give if wealth is redistributed for "more social justice" is implied by various Reps and spokespersons of the parasitic part of the 47%..

Jews are worth pandering to, as Romney has assiduously done.

But the danger for Republicans is spending too much time and effort on that 2% of the population and neglecting the far bigger vote of women, latinos, and the workers who are now very peeved with the "Jobs Creators".

“I disagree with Governor Romney’s insinuation that 47 percent of Americans believe they are victims who must depend on the government for their care," said McMahon, who is running for Senate in Connecticut, in a statement Tuesday.

I don't think that Romney coming out and breaking a bit from Bush II on Islam Is The Religion of Peace is utter Bush bunk.Or the role of America is to spend trillions giving the Noble Freedom Lovers of the Muslim World Democracy and new roads and girlie schools will make them love us..was basically Neocon bunk.

Nor is it a bad thing to have Republicans give up on nation-building and new adventures abroad for "The Heroes Who Keep Us All Safe".

They announced today that we are giving up on joint patrols with Noble Afghan Freedom Lovers. Too dangerous, despite the Great Saint General Petraeus saying they are critical trust building activities.News for Petraeus - they don't trust us, we sure don't trust then after several hundred NATO troops have been backshot by "our allied Islamoids".And the public will say "About time!" and "now how about getting the fuck out of that place??"

“I disagree with Governor Romney’s insinuation that 47 percent of Americans believe they are victims who must depend on the government for their care," said McMahon, who is running for Senate in Connecticut, in a statement Tuesday."

I think that Althouse might be right about Secret Romney's appeal.

After all, what Romney said isn't an insult unless what Romney said is an insult. So anyone and everyone complaining about it is sending the message that depending on government is a bad way to be.

"Romney put out a statement asking for the full video to be released."

Someone once suggested that all politicians (or all Republicans, anyhow) ought to insist that they get copies or are allowed to make their own copy of all media interviews (how interesting would the "long version" of the Palin/Couric interview be?).

As well as doing that, so that the candidate has their own unedited copy of interviews, they should probably also have their own staff record any and all "off the record" appearances, maybe even entire bus and plane rides.

shiloh" Dems/libs want to help the less fortunate" --- with other people's money, whereas Willard/Reps/cons don't. They reach into their own pockets to help. It's that basic. Conservatives don't believe they have the right to use someone else's money to salve their guilty conscience through government-mandated 'charity.'

Romney spoke of "the Palestinians" as a united bloc of one mindset, and he said: "I look at the Palestinians not wanting to see peace anyway, for political purposes, committed to the destruction and elimination of Israel, and these thorny issues, and I say there's just no way."

Unfair in a philosphical context (speaking of the set of all self-identified Palestinians), but in a political context, speaking of Palestinians as a political entity, it's reasonably fair and accurate.

I'm with our first commenter above; this sounds like Romney saying what is bloody obvious and has been for decades about the pure futility of the "two state solution" in the real world as it stands.

If I wasn't going to vote for Johnson* already this would make me more likely to vote Romney.

(* I live in Oregon. It's not like votes for anyone other than Obama are going to matter.)

Romney is not a naturally gifted public speaker. He's ususally earnest, measured, business like, but often tone deaf. Note that 'tone deafness' here is what, in any other context, would amount to plain speaking. We don't expect that from politicians and are surprised when we hear it.

His comments here are a bit more free wheeling but basically how he always speaks. The '47%' thing exaggerated the reality a bit,,but that's about it. It's true that about half of the adult population does not pay income tax; it's not true that they all see themselves as victims or are looking to the gov't to pay their rent, health care, food bill, etc. But Romney was speaking in a political atmosphere where the other side is all class warfare all the time, even to the point of claiming that America is 'rigged' against the little guy, in Elizabeth Warren's inimitable phrasing.

I think this is another story that will get the lefties all hot and bothered and will leave everyone else in the 'so what' mode. Not a big deal.

The former inhabitants of the Turkish Sultan's province called Palestine trusted the British Empire to divide it's protectorate from WWI among the Hashemites and the families that lived there.

But when the UN was tricked by Truman into a Jewish state declared in 18% of that area, they all ran away to avoid the war of extermination of the European Jews and a few sabras after which the planned to come back.

Four wars later they are still waiting.

No Palestinian wants a two state solution. If they did the 18% division would not have caused the war of extermination that created the 1949 armistice lines that Obama just commanded Israel to go back into.

This is pretty simple and straight forward, really: the Palestinians are despicable and vile and treacherous and so on.

The Palestinians are not suitable for decent international company. And the Palestinians are never going to (1) beome peaceful or (2) become a people worth interacting with on the international stage.

So, the thing to do is to find create for them a homeland, somewhere in North Africa and far away from Israel. And to empty the West Bank, Golan Heights and the Gaza Strip of all Palestinians. Give these lands and more to Israel. And move the Palestinians to their new homeland (Libya would be great).

Roll back the borders of Israel to the time of Solomon (all of Judea and Samaria).

During a business trip to Israel eleven years ago (which was fantastic) the people I worked with pointed out that the Palestinians would say one thing to the international press (and to negotiators) and in almost the next breath would say the opposite in speeches in person and on the radio.

Arafat was notorious for doing this (and in giving 4 hour speeches--what is it with dictators and dictator wannabes and their insanely long speeches?) One night, just before I arrived, he gave an interview on CNN in English that was conciliatory and minutes later, from the same studio, launched a multi-hour speech in Arabic promising to push Israelis into the sea.

So an Obama supporter gains access to a Romney private fundraiser and slips a video camera behind the candlesticks, or something, on a table. Then Obama sits next to a fawning David Letterman and piously lectures Romney about "being President for everybody," this after waging class warfare for years against his fellow Americans, inciting all kinds of antagonism at home and abroad. What a hippocrite! And that little toadie David Letterman is such a brainless fool.