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Communication & Feedback Grossly Lacking

Kais Klip

Posted 23 April 2017 - 05:43 PM

Kais Klip

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762 posts

Location:Caucus Blood, Albian Home

Faction: IIIrd Legio

Its been close to three weeks now since both me and another member attempted to find out why the Age of Darkness "Legion Influences // Historical Military Doctrines" thread was shut down without warning or explanation. Both of us made PMs directly to the higher circle of moderators, as well as the administrators of the relevant forums.

Neither was explanation given to why I was given a forum warning for my remarks regarding the recent development in 40k aesthetics. Instead, my PM was outright deleted by the moderator in question.

It seems ever since Brother Argos stepped down the moderators have been playing fast and loose with their absolutely voluntary roles. In some cases, the bare minimum is done in moderator role, nothing more than a lock of topic with an off-hand remark.

Arguably inane threads like "Lets banter like Space Marines" are given three or four warnings, while threads with "legendary" content hailed and celebrated by fellow fraters and cousins from other forums are shot down with nay a remark.

I remember reading that there is a multitude of work done behind-the-scenes here at Bolter and Chainsword. That every moderated comment and thread is analysed and discussed behind the curtains by the senior moderation team. It seems that the moderation of the moderators, if you will, has completely disappeared recently.

This has left me literally frustrated and disappointed with a forum that was once hailed as the catalogue-example of forums in day past. What's more concerning is that I "grew up", if you will, alongside the many members that are now moderators behind changed names and avatars-long gone past, so I'd like to think I'm more than qualified with commenting on the long-term changes of this forum, as veritably seen from the vantage point of an outside, active member.

It seems like a number of the lower ranked moderati need to take a break every once in a while, while the higher echelons should get together and discuss the next step for our little forum here and the way it is managed.

Boys, can you tighten your step, please?

"Sire! We are yours and you are ours, "The Wolves are coming! How they bleat and moan our names, pissing themselves in rage, as if our blood chills with but a mere wave of axe.

'Til the stars burn out, What do they know of war? They hold no technology, no stratagem nor ruse we have not yet met and bettered. In every way, we are superior.

And our eyes do not recognise the skies, Save for one. The Emperor does not make mistakes; for all their failings, all their misgivings, all their inadequacies... the Savage holds strength in hisNot unlike each other's hearts, weakness. Sadism, depravity and barbarism. To their breasts, they hold stratagems of the basest kind. As if we will not parry these blows too.'Til we are lone against the tide, We will not set aside our pride. It weighs us, true. But an unweighed blade does not cut. Who else has been laid so treacherously low, yet still rises as the

My brothers, rage! paradigm of glory? Of all the Legions, we deserve it.Against that dying of the light, But we must set aside our honour. We must set aside our reservations. We must set aside the grace of blade and turn to the brutality of hilt.

So into the jaws of death, We must delve into the matter of the savage, and raise it too into perfection. There is little point to them, my brothers. Only one purposeAnd out the other side! for which they exist. Take that away, show them that even in that we are better, and the Wolf King and his pups will be broken."

choppyred

Posted 23 April 2017 - 07:33 PM

choppyred

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Location:Hampshire U.K

It was a fantastic thread and the main reason that I joined the B&C after years of lurking, but if I had to guess as to why it was shut down, I would say that it started to be a bit jingoistic on two of the posts on the second page which left unchecked could have escalated quite badly so had to be shut down. But that's just a guess.

Kais Klip

Posted 23 April 2017 - 07:41 PM

You should be able to see Moderator notes for Warning Points through your profile.

But where is the ability to challenge and appeal these decisions?

For context I was reprimanded for pointing out the Mechanicum Kastelan models look like they have "down syndrome", while a member just today in News & Rumours remarked a model was being a "spaz" and a moderator continued to chat along with him quite happily.

Choppyred's remark highlights my point; no one knows why it was shut down. Only a vague and snarky "circle of death" comment was mentioned by the moderator in question.

"Sire! We are yours and you are ours, "The Wolves are coming! How they bleat and moan our names, pissing themselves in rage, as if our blood chills with but a mere wave of axe.

'Til the stars burn out, What do they know of war? They hold no technology, no stratagem nor ruse we have not yet met and bettered. In every way, we are superior.

And our eyes do not recognise the skies, Save for one. The Emperor does not make mistakes; for all their failings, all their misgivings, all their inadequacies... the Savage holds strength in hisNot unlike each other's hearts, weakness. Sadism, depravity and barbarism. To their breasts, they hold stratagems of the basest kind. As if we will not parry these blows too.'Til we are lone against the tide, We will not set aside our pride. It weighs us, true. But an unweighed blade does not cut. Who else has been laid so treacherously low, yet still rises as the

My brothers, rage! paradigm of glory? Of all the Legions, we deserve it.Against that dying of the light, But we must set aside our honour. We must set aside our reservations. We must set aside the grace of blade and turn to the brutality of hilt.

So into the jaws of death, We must delve into the matter of the savage, and raise it too into perfection. There is little point to them, my brothers. Only one purposeAnd out the other side! for which they exist. Take that away, show them that even in that we are better, and the Wolf King and his pups will be broken."

Olis

Posted 23 April 2017 - 09:21 PM

Olis

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15,374 posts

Location:Wiltshire, England

For context I was reprimanded for pointing out the Mechanicum Kastelan models look like they have "down syndrome", while a member just today in News & Rumours remarked a model was being a "spaz" and a moderator continued to chat along with him quite happily.

For now, I'll only deal with this point here. I checked what you said - there was indeed someone who had used the word 'spaz' (something that will be dealt with in due course and should have been reported if you believed it worthy of note) but your claim that a Mod had continued to chat along is false. The last Mod in that discussion (Brother Casman) had posted the day before, on something entirely unrelated. Either you remember this wrong or you are referring to something I did not find (in which case I humbly request a link to the offending article).

Withershadow

Posted 18 May 2017 - 05:04 PM

Withershadow

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Admins are just as bad as the moderators. They either ignore your attempts to get clarity, or are actually the ones nuking posts because apparently they don't know their own forum rules (like xenos discussion in the rumor subthread). I've enjoyed my time on these forums and was even going to match that donation challenge someone posted, but ever since 8th teasers started coming out and a whole brigade of eager beavers have been appointed to the moderating team, the moderation is extremely overbearing and often deletes posts wholesale for inexplicable reasons. I know none of you really care based on the PM discussions and the responses other forum members have received to their complaints, but you're basically turning into Warseer, and will inevitably suffer the same fate. Now please prove my point by deleting this post. Thank you for your service.

Bryan Blaire

Posted 18 May 2017 - 05:23 PM

Bryan Blaire

++ EXPLORATOR BIOLOGIS ++

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6,086 posts

Faction: Imperium, Chaos, Xenos

Well, there is that old saying about getting more flies with honey... being outright hostile to folks generally doesn't get you anywhere and assuming that people that wrote the rules don't know them doesn't engender anyone to actually discuss with you. Maybe the rule as written isn't exactly what is intended, and should be revised, fair enough, but you don't know that until you ask. Perhaps there is something that you lack understanding on or a subtlety that isn't conveyed that needs to be, and your asking the question and receiving the answer could help get a necessary revision realized and worked on. Also, the Admin staff is considerably smaller than the Moderatii group, so responses may not be as fast. Realizing that everyone here is trying their best would be helpful, and mistakes can happen. Not immediately assuming the worst is good practice.

As far as posting "We'll I was going to participate in a donation..." You either want to or not, there's a reason there is no "I donated" signature button or anything here and words are cheap.

If the environment here isn't to your standard, perhaps running a forum is more what you are looking to do?

Withershadow

Posted 18 May 2017 - 06:18 PM

Withershadow

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You seem to be under the impression that I'm hollering and pumping my fist in the air, when I'm merely wryly shaking my head.

Admin cites rule wrong with off-topic post. Admin's post is responded to with a direct quote from the rules, followed by a large on-topic post. Admin deletes entire post immediately. Does not respond to any inquiries. This was like a week ago. Busy or petty, you decide. I know I have, which is why I don't bother bringing up the issue directly with any moderators or admins anymore. If a post gets deleted, oh well, it's not worth the effort raging over. I am simply helping my fellow frustrated forum member by sharing my experience that reaching out to admins because you have an issue with a moderator is the very definition of a colossal waste of time, and advising him to adopt a similarly detached attitude.

And sure, words are cheap. But I'm amused your response to "over-moderation is making me appreciate the site less to the point that I don't care to contribute to its operating costs" is essentially "get the :cuss out". Followed by the usual weak reflexive response to any criticism of "well I want to see you do better! Nyah!" Clearly, I'm not the only one to feel the same, given the frequency of similar comments in the main forums or the half dozen or so threads about the same topic on the first page of this very sub-forum.

By the way, since you're likely to assume next that I hate all moderation, I want to give full and genuine kudos and thanks to the moderators of the 30K sub-forums. Those folks do it right.

Edit: oh, and let me not be remiss in mentioning Vel'cona in my moderator shout outs. I may disagree with him entirely, but at least he has the cojones to explain his reasoning for deleting something.

Bryan Blaire

Posted 18 May 2017 - 07:07 PM

You seem to be under the impression that I'm hollering and pumping my fist in the air, when I'm merely wryly shaking my head.

I have made no assumptions as to the nature of your activities, I was merely responding to your post, as the topic of this post is literally "communication is lacking", so I'm communicating with you.

And sure, words are cheap. But I'm amused your response to "over-moderation is making me appreciate the site less to the point that I don't care to contribute to its operating costs" is essentially "get the out". Followed by the usual weak reflexive response to any criticism of "well I want to see you do better! Nyah!" Clearly, I'm not the only one to feel the same, given the frequency of similar comments in the main forums or the half dozen or so threads about the same topic on the first page of this very sub-forum.

Um, assumptions? I never told you or anyone in this thread to leave.

And I was very honest in my assessment that if the environment here is not what you would like, that you may be more open to running your own forum. That isn't a veiled anything, it is a very straightforward comment. It's not a challenge or anything else.

You are showing everyone here just as much your own viewpoint via your assumptions about what is written as you are discussing mistreatment, perceived or actual. For my part, I'm sorry that you are assuming that my text meant "Don't like it, get out." That was definitely not my intent. It was my intent to say that you may feel that a different atmosphere for discussion is available to you in a location where you set the rules. It often makes people more comfortable to have more control.

By the way, since you're likely to assume next that I hate all moderation

Not at all, but your assumption is showing. It is good to hear that people appreciate part of the staff though, I'm sure they will appreciate your words and may engender some discussion amongst the Moderation team.

Withershadow

Posted 18 May 2017 - 07:42 PM

Withershadow

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How else can one interpret "if you don't like how things are done around here [which again lets re-iterate is a new development], go create your own forum"? Or how to reconcile the blank-faced answer "if you have an issue with a deletion, talk to admins", which are by your own description, super rare and super precious, and far too busy to waste time on this?

Anyway, my purpose has been fulfilled, I gave my suggestion to the OP not to waste his time. I will now take my own advise. Good day.

Bryan Blaire

Posted 18 May 2017 - 07:48 PM

Bryan Blaire

++ EXPLORATOR BIOLOGIS ++

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6,086 posts

Faction: Imperium, Chaos, Xenos

How else can one interpret "if you don't like how things are done around here [which again lets re-iterate is a new development], go create your own forum"? Or how to reconcile the blank-faced answer "if you have an issue with a deletion, talk to admins", which are by your own description, super rare and super precious, and far too busy to waste time on this?

Well, one could not reword things that have been written to you and instead read them as written. That's interpretation based on your revisions with the intent you wish to read them (also called assumptive inference/interpretation).

I tried to make an honest suggestion that you could run a forum if it would make you feel more comfortable. You'd be able to design your own rules and limits, etc. You wouldn't need to converse with others to try and find out what could have been viewed as wrong, done differently, etc. It'd be all your own. If that wouldn't help, then there is no need to pursue it.

Withershadow

Posted 18 May 2017 - 08:13 PM

Withershadow

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There is nothing honest about that suggestion, given the effort it takes to make a forum page, the amount of infrastructure it requires to keep running, plus the time it takes to reach critical mass of members to actually be able to hold discussions.

Your suggestion is akin to someone saying "man, my Range Rover is always in the shop", and you responding "well create your own brand of vehicle and design your own car."

A more honest suggestion would have been to tell me to go to another forum (buy a Lexus instead), but then you would be literally telling me to :cuss off, rather than merely figuratively. And in fact, I was citing another forum as an example. Warseer had a bad reputation for unchecked moderation, which caused the quality of the forum to degrade, until they finally pissed off the wrong neckbeard, who DDOS'd them to oblivion.

I guess I am making assumptions again, but your whole attitude in this thread, towards me and the original poster seems extremely defensive and dismissive at the same time. Here's a multiple choice question.

Question (paraphrasing OP): This forum used to be a glowing jewel of proper moderation in the wilds of the internet. Now it's a bunch of itchy-fingered newbie moderators running amuck. I understand the volume of discussion has peaked with 8th edition rumors, but can some of that famous self-policing come back?

Answers:

A. Talk to my supervisor. Although he's on vacation this month, so good luck.

B. :cuss off to your own forum.

C. Thank you for the suggestion in this suggestion sub-forum, we will take it under advisement.

Bryan Blaire

Posted 18 May 2017 - 08:42 PM

Bryan Blaire

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6,086 posts

Faction: Imperium, Chaos, Xenos

Well, since I posted two lines previously to Kais Klip, I'm not sure where you are reading my attitude from. I'm not a 30K forum Moderator, so I can't address anything from there. I am also not the Moderator that took the action about word usage that Klip brought up, so again, I'm not the person to address that. I do know that issues like that need to be brought up to the Admins, hence my comments.

As far as the OP's post, it has caused discussion amongst the Admins and Moderators. It is on-going.

I was trying to be more communicative with you because you brought up concerns that I felt I could address (knowledge of rules, donations, and that none of us care). It pretty much feels like you are attacking back at me, rather than trying to engage in an actual discussion.

Yes, my suggestion on the forum thing was honest, people have started up their own forums, and even on free serving sites, and I would assume they enjoy it more than being a member elsewhere, otherwise why wouldn't they just be a member elsewhere? The vehicle thing, in my mind, is a very poor analogy. I think a better one would be that I suggested something more like "If you don't like shelling out for maintenance on your Range Rover, perhaps selling it and buying something you could service yourself would be something that might interest you?"

You seem pretty angry about the Moderators and Admins for someone that's only been here about six months, but in another effort to engage with you, was there something about the Xenos rule that you feel you were run afoul over that you did have a question or suggestion about?

Withershadow

Posted 18 May 2017 - 08:52 PM

Withershadow

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I am not angry, and although I was annoyed at a few of my posts being deleted, a discussion with Vel'cona helped resolve those angsty feelings. I am not "attacking back at you" because I've had no prior engagements with you, I just find your responses to suggestions to be flippant, smarmy, and disingenuous. But those could be all my assumptions.

Regarding my short tenure here, that should only emphasize how much of a stark and rapid difference I've seen since the 8th edition roll-out. Maybe it's because I didn't stray much to the 40K side of the forums before, and it's always been like this? Anyway, I spake my piece and shall hold my peace.

edit: regarding the Xenos rule

NEWS, RUMORS, AND FORUM ANNOUNCEMENTS

Per the status quo, discussion of xenos is allowed.

Seems pretty cut and dry. Therefore talking about Tau in a rumor thread discussing an 8th edition 40K Tau teaser article should qualify as relevant, especially when even the original admin's admonishment was also eventually removed. It just took several on-topic posts along with it (rather than say, editing out the admonishment and rules quote). Anyway, it is not my intent to drag that up, it's not that important. If this thread has sparked discussion among the moderator/admin team, fantastic! Our work here is done! Let's hope the end result is positive for everyone involved.

Bryan Blaire

Posted 18 May 2017 - 08:58 PM

Bryan Blaire

++ EXPLORATOR BIOLOGIS ++

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6,086 posts

Faction: Imperium, Chaos, Xenos

One hardly needs to have a relationship to attack, good sir. I'm sorry that you feel that I have been dishonest or lacking in genuine feelings despite my explanation otherwise, but you do seem to have made up your mind. My offer of engagement still stands to resolve any lingering issue regarding the Xenos rule in question.