Church & State - Think Atheist2018-02-18T05:26:29Zhttp://www.thinkatheist.com/forum/categories/church-state/listForCategory?categoryId=1982180%3ACategory%3A143&feed=yes&xn_auth=noPrayer and hymns at Hallsville High Graduationtag:www.thinkatheist.com,2017-05-26:1982180:Topic:16282992017-05-26T21:18:13.638ZEric Andristhttp://www.thinkatheist.com/profile/EricAndrist
<p>Hi everyone,<br></br><br></br>I really just joined to share this information with you. I actually live in California, but my roommate is from Texas and he flew home to attend his daughter's graduation tonight. <br></br><br></br>He texted me this morning that the graduation ceremony includes a prayer and there's lots of hymns and praise music being played during the ceremony. <br></br><br></br>I was shocked! So he got up the nerve to ask the superintendent about it and he told him that as long as a student leads…</p>
<p>Hi everyone,<br/><br/>I really just joined to share this information with you. I actually live in California, but my roommate is from Texas and he flew home to attend his daughter's graduation tonight. <br/><br/>He texted me this morning that the graduation ceremony includes a prayer and there's lots of hymns and praise music being played during the ceremony. <br/><br/>I was shocked! So he got up the nerve to ask the superintendent about it and he told him that as long as a student leads the prayer, it's ok. <br/><br/>So I looked up some laws on google and I don't think he's right. So I wrote to the local Longview paper and 3 of the news stations, although I don't expect to hear back from them. Here's what I said: <br/><br/></p>
<p class="p1"><span class="s1">Hi, writing from California. I was just talking to a friend who has a child graduating from Hallsville High School today. He said that there will be a student prayer and that they will be playing praise songs and hymns during the ceremony. It’s my understanding that the Superintendent said that if a student leads the prayer it’s ok. (see below)</span></p>
<p class="p1"><span class="s1">I believe this kind of activity in a public school is against the law, is it not? Doesn't the Education Code 25.901 say that a student only has a right to "individually, voluntarily, and silently pray or meditate in a nondisruptive manner?" According to this page which talks about "Public Prayer in Public Schools Laws" it says, </span></p>
<p class="p1"><span class="s1">The federal and state governments are prevented from endorsing or opposing any religion, or no religion at all. Because public schools are government entities, this means that they are not allowed to favor or oppose religion as well. Part of this prohibition includes forcing students to engage in a public prayer . The school-sanctioned prayer does not have to be aligned with any religion to be impermissible, because forcing an atheist student to pray violates his or her First Amendment rights.</span></p>
<p class="p3"><span class="s2"><a href="http://statelaws.findlaw.com/texas-law/texas-prayer-in-public-schools-laws.html">http://statelaws.findlaw.com/texas-law/texas-prayer-in-public-schools-laws.html</a></span></p>
<p class="p1"><span class="s1">If you read the “Overview of Governing Constitutional Principles,” it says, "Accordingly, the First Amendment forbids religious activity that is </span><span class="s2"><b>sponsored by the government</b></span><span class="s1"> but protects religious activity that is </span><span class="s2"><b>initiated by private individuals</b></span><span class="s1">, and the line between government-sponsored and privately initiated religious expression is vital to a proper understanding of the First Amendment's scope.</span></p>
<p class="p1"><span class="s1">A student leading the prayer doesn’t mean that the school didn’t sponsor it. And what about students from other religions that have to participate at their graduation with these likely “Christian” traditions going on around them?</span></p>
<p class="p1"><span class="s1">Why is this archaic and insensitive behavior still happening in Texas public schools?</span></p> Steve Bannon Believes The Apocalypse Is Coming And War Is Inevitabletag:www.thinkatheist.com,2017-02-14:1982180:Topic:16165812017-02-14T01:22:33.873ZPope Beaniehttp://www.thinkatheist.com/profile/PaulRyan
<p>[<a href="http://www.huffingtonpost.com/entry/steve-bannon-apocalypse_us_5898f02ee4b040613138a951" target="_blank">read full Huffington Post article</a>]</p>
<p>A few paragraphs from it:</p>
<p>“This is the fourth great crisis in American history,” Bannon told an audience at the Liberty Restoration Foundation, a conservative nonprofit, in 2011. “We had the Revolution. We had the Civil War. We had the Great Depression and World War II. This is the great Fourth Turning in American history, and…</p>
<p>[<a href="http://www.huffingtonpost.com/entry/steve-bannon-apocalypse_us_5898f02ee4b040613138a951" target="_blank">read full Huffington Post article</a>]</p>
<p>A few paragraphs from it:</p>
<p>“This is the fourth great crisis in American history,” Bannon told an audience at the Liberty Restoration Foundation, a conservative nonprofit, in 2011. “We had the Revolution. We had the Civil War. We had the Great Depression and World War II. This is the great Fourth Turning in American history, and we’re going to be one thing on the other side.”</p>
<p>Major crises “happen in about 80- or 100-year cycles,” Bannon told a conference put on by the Republican women’s group Project GoPink that same year. “And somewhere over the next 10 or 20 years, we’re going to come through this crisis, and we’re either going to be the country that was bequeathed to us or it’s going to be something that’s completely or totally different.”</p>
<p>The “Judeo-Christian West is collapsing,” he went on. “It’s imploding. And it’s imploding on our watch. And the blowback of that is going to be tremendous.”</p> Dumb Creationists Contesttag:www.thinkatheist.com,2016-07-05:1982180:Topic:15932262016-07-05T14:40:06.751ZSkycomet the Fallen Angelhttp://www.thinkatheist.com/profile/Skycomet
<p>Hey! So... the stupid Arc Park is opening not far from where I live. In "honor" of this event, I propose a challenge!</p>
<p>Post the dumbest creationist question/ comment that you have heard... who here has heard something that can break the stupidity record? LOL!</p>
<p></p>
<p>I'll start, I guess:</p>
<p>"If we came from monkeys, then why aren't there people who are half monkey, half human?"</p>
<p>(Summarizing a surprisingly complicated, ridiculously long spew of nonsense that once…</p>
<p>Hey! So... the stupid Arc Park is opening not far from where I live. In "honor" of this event, I propose a challenge!</p>
<p>Post the dumbest creationist question/ comment that you have heard... who here has heard something that can break the stupidity record? LOL!</p>
<p></p>
<p>I'll start, I guess:</p>
<p>"If we came from monkeys, then why aren't there people who are half monkey, half human?"</p>
<p>(Summarizing a surprisingly complicated, ridiculously long spew of nonsense that once invaded a forum)</p> Obama's pulpit: Should elected officials be preaching theology?tag:www.thinkatheist.com,2015-06-28:1982180:Topic:15389462015-06-28T16:45:39.066ZJulie Whttp://www.thinkatheist.com/profile/JulieW
<p class="p1">I have been googling around for atheist opinions on the president's eulogy June 26th at the AME church in Charleston and haven't found anything. Was wondering if anyone else has reacted as strongly to Obama's performance as I have. Negatively, I mean.</p>
<p class="p2">I find it deeply offensive that a person in the highest elected position in the land took the opportunity to become a preacher -- not just someone speaking for the spiritual side of human nature, but a real…</p>
<p class="p1">I have been googling around for atheist opinions on the president's eulogy June 26th at the AME church in Charleston and haven't found anything. Was wondering if anyone else has reacted as strongly to Obama's performance as I have. Negatively, I mean.</p>
<p class="p2">I find it deeply offensive that a person in the highest elected position in the land took the opportunity to become a preacher -- not just someone speaking for the spiritual side of human nature, but a real Christian preacher. </p>
<p class="p2">Obama's use of the statement “We’ve been blind / but now we see" was appalling. First of all, who's the "We"? I hope he's not including any of the millions of Americans who have never been blind to the evils of slavery or to the white South's continued use of the Confederate flag to help haters bond.</p>
<p class="p2">And when he says: “We don’t earn grace. We're all sinners. We don't deserve it. But God gives it to us anyway," should non-theists believe that he is speaking for us as well? One could argue that he is speaking about grace in the broadest spiritual sense, a human goodness we are somehow born with but somehow don't always recognize. But you can't do that in the context of <em>this</em> very Christian eulogy about the grace of a very Christian god who can deliver a Christian concept of grace to a Christian concept of sinners.</p>
<p class="p2">To ascribe this new ability to "see" as something related to the grace inherent in a monotheistic (Christian) god is downright insulting. It not only doesn't speak to those of us who don't believe in such things, but it puts Christian believers into the stupid category, implying that they can't recognize immoral, and in this case, racist behavior and attitudes on their own. They can, and they do, including so many of the so-called "saved" ones. Some just prefer to carry hate in their hearts and codify hate in their laws. </p>
<p class="p2">James Fallows (<a href="http://www.theatlantic.com/politics/archive/2015/06/grace/397064/">www.theatlantic.com/politics/archive/2015/06/grace/397064/</a>, June 27th) has written that Obama's eulogy illustrates the president's "bridging potential," saying that at "different points in the speech he uses it to mean: we Christians; we African-Americans; we members of the black church; we parents; we people of all faiths and any faith; we Americans." </p>
<p class="p1">But not We non-theists.</p>
<p class="p1">The underlying message to people who don't buy into Christian ideology is that elected officials have the right to proselytize on a national pulpit, and those of us who don't ascribe to these same ideas should just turn the TV off for a day or two.</p>
<p class="p1">In fact, that shouldn't be happening under our Constitution. Obama has misused the office to deliver such a speech in a public forum. If he wants to preach to like-minded people, turn the cameras off, leave the body-guards at the door, and make sure the event stays private. </p>
<p class="p1"></p> Mayor and police chief remove resident for refusing to stand for prayer & pledgetag:www.thinkatheist.com,2014-09-03:1982180:Topic:14884362014-09-03T02:26:58.075ZGallup's Mirrorhttp://www.thinkatheist.com/profile/GallupsMirror
<p>John Rees, the mayor of Winter Garden, Florida ordered police Chief George A. Brennan to remove Joseph Richardson from a city commission meeting on August 28th, 2014 after <a href="http://www.orlandosentinel.com/news/breaking-news/os-mayor-tosses-man-for-not-standing-for-pledge-of-20140829,0,80941.story" target="_blank">Richardson refused to stand for a prayer</a> and the Pledge of Allegiance.</p>
<p>Joseph Richardson is a member of the Freedom From Religion Foundation who has been asking…</p>
<p>John Rees, the mayor of Winter Garden, Florida ordered police Chief George A. Brennan to remove Joseph Richardson from a city commission meeting on August 28th, 2014 after <a href="http://www.orlandosentinel.com/news/breaking-news/os-mayor-tosses-man-for-not-standing-for-pledge-of-20140829,0,80941.story" target="_blank">Richardson refused to stand for a prayer</a> and the Pledge of Allegiance.</p>
<p>Joseph Richardson is a member of the Freedom From Religion Foundation who has been asking the city to let him give an invocation at the meeting, a duty reserved for city commissioners or clergy picked by the mayor.</p>
<p>Now seems like a good time to remind everyone that just four months ago, our conservative Supreme Court just voted along party lines to issue <a href="http://www.usatoday.com/story/news/nation/2014/05/05/supreme-court-government-prayer-new-york/4481969/" target="_blank">the Orwellian ruling</a> that government sectarian prayers are not only secular, they do not advance religion or coerce residents in any way.</p>
<p>Now stand up you little turd or I'll have the cops drag you out.</p>
<p><iframe width="560" height="315" src="//www.youtube.com/embed/I1X4wE8XxOk?list=UU28jWiP7HV6mBBW3C8AXuEg&amp;wmode=opaque" frameborder="0"></iframe>
</p>
<p>&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; <a href="http://www.thinkatheist.com/xn/detail/1982180:Topic:1489465?xg_source=activity" target="_blank">UPDATE</a>: MAYOR APOLOGIZES AND ENDS CITY COUNSEL PRAYERS &lt;&lt;&lt;&lt;</p>
<p></p> What are your thoughts on what is happening right now with the Catolic Churchtag:www.thinkatheist.com,2014-05-23:1982180:Topic:14606772014-05-23T14:55:19.567ZBernardohttp://www.thinkatheist.com/profile/Bernardo
<p><a href="http://www.jornada.unam.mx/2014/02/06/edito">http://www.jornada.unam.mx/2014/02/06/edito</a></p>
<p>The link is in Spanish but surely you can view the new in English in any browser.</p>
<p>The ONU has pronounced against the Catholic Church and is making a lot of noise.</p>
<p><a href="http://www.jornada.unam.mx/2014/02/06/edito">http://www.jornada.unam.mx/2014/02/06/edito</a></p>
<p>The link is in Spanish but surely you can view the new in English in any browser.</p>
<p>The ONU has pronounced against the Catholic Church and is making a lot of noise.</p> "History" repeats itself in Massachusettstag:www.thinkatheist.com,2014-05-13:1982180:Topic:14584152014-05-13T23:17:46.910ZGallup's Mirrorhttp://www.thinkatheist.com/profile/GallupsMirror
<p>"Although the words 'under God' undeniably have a religious tinge, courts that have considered the <strong>history</strong> of the pledge and the presence of those words have consistently concluded that the pledge, notwithstanding its reference to God, is a fundamentally patriotic exercise, not a religious one." (<a href="http://www.socialaw.com/slippf.htm?cid=22800&amp;sid=120" target="_blank">Source</a>)</p>
<p>And with these incongruous words, the highest court in Massachusetts issued a…</p>
<p>"Although the words 'under God' undeniably have a religious tinge, courts that have considered the <strong>history</strong> of the pledge and the presence of those words have consistently concluded that the pledge, notwithstanding its reference to God, is a fundamentally patriotic exercise, not a religious one." (<a href="http://www.socialaw.com/slippf.htm?cid=22800&amp;sid=120" target="_blank">Source</a>)</p>
<p>And with these incongruous words, the highest court in Massachusetts issued a ruling which, by its own admission, denied the undeniably religious words 'Under God' are, in fact, religious. Because, having considered and notwithstanding the religious aspect-- which is unlawful-- it's not religion at all. It's "<strong>history</strong>".</p>
<p>This continues the ongoing and increasingly popular strategy used by judges and legislators of the religious right: substitute "<strong>history</strong>" (or rather a mythologized version of history) for legal analysis as a means to shelter Christian shrines and observations on public property. By declaring that religion is "<strong>history</strong>" and thus entirely secular, it becomes permissible. "History" can be an event as recent as 14 years ago.</p>
<p>Other recent examples include...</p>
<p>1. The Roberts Supreme Court <a href="http://www.cnn.com/2014/05/05/politics/scotus-new-york-public-prayer/" target="_blank">ruled</a> that officials in Greece, New York may jabber Christian prayers at city hall on government property, on grounds that such prayers are "<strong>history</strong>", not religion.</p>
<p>2. The <a href="http://kfor.com/2014/01/06/temple-seeks-to-build-monument-in-homage-to-satan-at-state-capitol/" target="_blank">Oklahoma State Capital's Ten Commandments</a> monument: <em>“The only reason why the Ten Commandments qualified is because at the Capitol, what we do is we make laws. We are lawmakers. Well, one of the earliest laws we have are the Ten Commandments. So therefore, <strong>it has historical significance</strong>.”</em></p>
<p>3. The <a href="http://caselaw.lp.findlaw.com/scripts/getcase.pl?court=us&amp;vol=000&amp;invol=03-1500" target="_blank">Ten Commandments monument at the Texas State Capital</a>: <em>"The Chief Justice [Roberts], Justice Scalia, Justice Kennedy, and Justice Thomas, concluded that the Establishment Clause allows the display of a monument inscribed with the Ten Commandments on the Texas State Capitol grounds. Reconciling the strong role played by religion and religious traditions throughout our Nation's <strong>history</strong>..."</em></p>
<p>4. The <a href="http://missoulian.com/news/local/atheists-shocked-by-judge-s-decision-allowing-big-mountain-jesus/article_a658be68-dda4-11e2-98a2-001a4bcf887a.html" target="_blank">statue of Jesus erected on federal land</a> at Whitefish Mountain: <em>For many, [Judge] Christensen said, the statue is mostly “a <strong>historical</strong> reminder of those bygone days of sack lunches, ungroomed runs, rope tows, T-bars, leather ski boots and 210 cm. skis.”</em></p>
<p>5. The <a href="http://www.cnn.com/2013/03/29/us/new-york-911-museum-cross/" target="_blank">Christian Cross of Ground Zero</a> : <em>"Federal Judge Deborah Batts of the Southern District of New York ruled Thursday that display of the beams is permissible because they bear <strong>historical</strong> importance."</em> <em><br/></em></p>
<p>Thus equipped with such "reason", legislative bodies and courts packed with Christians are excluding shrines to Islam, Hinduism and Satan, and a monument to the <a href="http://content.usatoday.com/communities/ondeadline/post/2011/07/atheists-sue-to-block-wtc-cross-from-911-memorial/1" target="_blank">500 irreligious who died</a> in the 9/11 attacks. Also excluded: the irreligious wishing to petition the prayerful at City Hall and the Humanist kids who want to participate in the daily patriotic exercise at their public schools. But Christian religious shrines and observances, being included in the government-backed in-crowd, may proceed unchecked.</p>
<p>That's how it works. Judges rubber stamp the whitewashing of the Constitution and grant <strong>"history"</strong> its special, privileged place. Every group that isn't part of <strong>"history"</strong>: sit down and shut up. You're excluded.</p>
<p>That's "equality".</p>
<p>Anyone care to wager on whether "history" will <a href="http://www.usatoday.com/story/news/nation/2014/04/22/school-district-sued-pledge-of-allegiance/7996207/" target="_blank">repeat itself in New Jersey</a> too?</p> NJ DMV Forbids "8Theist" Vanity Platetag:www.thinkatheist.com,2014-04-18:1982180:Topic:14504532014-04-18T22:07:58.905ZAndy Hokehttp://www.thinkatheist.com/profile/AndyHoke
<p><a href="http://blogs.wsj.com/law/2014/04/18/license-to-offend-woman-sues-n-j-over-denial-of-8theist-vanity-plate/?mod=WSJBlog">http://blogs.wsj.com/law/2014/04/18/license-to-offend-woman-sues-n-j-over-denial-of-8theist-vanity-plate/?mod=WSJBlog</a></p>
<p><a href="http://blogs.wsj.com/law/2014/04/18/license-to-offend-woman-sues-n-j-over-denial-of-8theist-vanity-plate/?mod=WSJBlog">http://blogs.wsj.com/law/2014/04/18/license-to-offend-woman-sues-n-j-over-denial-of-8theist-vanity-plate/?mod=WSJBlog</a></p> Should American Atheists sue to have 'Cross of Ground Zero' removed?tag:www.thinkatheist.com,2014-03-12:1982180:Topic:14406302014-03-12T21:35:44.937ZGallup's Mirrorhttp://www.thinkatheist.com/profile/GallupsMirror
<p><a href="http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/e/e0/911site_cross.jpg/360px-911site_cross.jpg" target="_blank"><img class="align-center" height="292" src="http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/e/e0/911site_cross.jpg/360px-911site_cross.jpg" width="219"></img></a> The World Trade Centers contained thousands of steel crossbeams, some of which were left standing after the attacks on September 11, 2001. Construction worker <span id="t12bl">Frank Silecchia</span> <a href="http://webarchive.loc.gov/lcwa0001/20010926073216/http://www.nypost.com/commentary/4613.htm" target="_blank">located several of them in the…</a></p>
<p><a target="_blank" href="http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/e/e0/911site_cross.jpg/360px-911site_cross.jpg"><img class="align-center" src="http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/e/e0/911site_cross.jpg/360px-911site_cross.jpg" height="292" width="219"/></a>The World Trade Centers contained thousands of steel crossbeams, some of which were left standing after the attacks on September 11, 2001. Construction worker <span id="t12bl">Frank Silecchia</span> <a href="http://webarchive.loc.gov/lcwa0001/20010926073216/http://www.nypost.com/commentary/4613.htm" target="_blank">located several of them in the rubble</a> and called it a "miracle". He removed one and had it cut to more closely resemble a Latin cross.</p>
<p>Silecchia had the cross blessed by a Catholic priest, who <a href="https://web.archive.org/web/20051219065340/http://peaceofficerministries.org/letter.htm" target="_blank">obtained permission</a> from New York City Mayor Rudolph Giuliani to erect the cross on a concrete pedestal as a memorial. The cross was later moved to St. Peter's Church, which faces the future site of the 911 memorial.</p>
<p>It stayed put for ten years, then was moved back to the Ground Zero site as a <a href="http://newyork.cbslocal.com/2011/07/23/world-trade-center-cross-moving-to-permanent-home/" target="_blank">"permanent" home</a> in 2011, when it was again blessed by a Catholic priest in a brief religious ceremony, with former mayor Giuliani looking on. The cross has been there ever since, serving essentially a religious shrine where people often leave notes and jabber prayers.</p>
<p><a target="_blank" href="http://cbsnewyork.files.wordpress.com/2011/07/119646964.jpg?w=420&amp;h=276"><img class="align-center" src="http://cbsnewyork.files.wordpress.com/2011/07/119646964.jpg?w=420&amp;h=276"/></a></p>
<p>Now it seems that <a href="http://www.huffingtonpost.com/dan-arel/atheists-are-not-offended_b_4927592.html" target="_blank">American Atheists has had enough</a>. They're suing to stop the 'Cross of Ground Zero' from being included as a permanent part of the National September 11 Memorial, a federally funded museum. Otherwise, they want a separate monument to the atheists who were killed in the attack.</p>
<p>What do you think? Should American Atheists be filing this lawsuit? Do you think it'll work? Why or why not?</p> Proposed Satanic monument revealed for Oklahoma capitol grounds.tag:www.thinkatheist.com,2014-01-24:1982180:Topic:14283332014-01-24T17:10:34.414ZEdhttp://www.thinkatheist.com/profile/EdwardDelauter
<p><a href="http://religion.blogs.cnn.com/2014/01/07/satanists-unveil-design-for-statehouse-statue/comment-page-37/">http://religion.blogs.cnn.com/2014/01/07/satanists-unveil-design-for-statehouse-statue/comment-page-37/</a></p>
<p><span>"The Satanists' proposed monument depicts Baphomet, a goat-headed pagan idol sitting on a 7-foot-tall throne inscribed with an inverted pentagram. In an artist's rendering provided by the Satanic Temple, smiling children look adoringly at the devilish…</span></p>
<p><a href="http://religion.blogs.cnn.com/2014/01/07/satanists-unveil-design-for-statehouse-statue/comment-page-37/">http://religion.blogs.cnn.com/2014/01/07/satanists-unveil-design-for-statehouse-statue/comment-page-37/</a></p>
<p><span>"The Satanists' proposed monument depicts Baphomet, a goat-headed pagan idol sitting on a 7-foot-tall throne inscribed with an inverted pentagram. In an artist's rendering provided by the Satanic Temple, smiling children look adoringly at the devilish figure."</span></p>
<p><span>Those in opposition to the proposed statue say that the basis for denying the erection of this very controversial statue is that it offers no historical significance to the state of Oklahoma, as that presented by the Christian monument displaying the Ten Commandments. Certainly there must be other criteria that offers equal validity to the erection of monuments on public property. </span></p>
<p><span>This proposal by the Church of Satan offers an excellent example of how we must cater to all religious sects or none at all. It would be interesting to the see the chagrin on the face of Chief Justice Antonin Scalia, a staunch Catholic, when they discuss the merits of this latest proposed addition to the lawn of the Oklahoma capitol grounds. </span></p>
<p><span>Would the Supreme Court find in favor for the Church of Satan?</span></p>