AFFIDAVIT
OF PHILIP KLINGENSMITH (1871)
(The affidavit that renewed interest in prosecution)Klingensmith Affidavit

TESTIMONY IN THE FIRST
TRIAL (1875)Testimony of Philip
Klingensmith[Klingensmith's testimony is probably the
most detailed and credible account of the massacre,
the chain of command, and the distribution of the surviving children..]

Questions to
be propounded to Bringham Young on his examination as a witness in the
case of
John D. Lee and others, on trial at Beaver City, this 30th
day of
July, 1875, and the answers of Bringham Young to the interrogatives
hereto
appended, were reduced to writing, and were given after the said
Bringham Young
had been duly sworn to testify the truth in the above entitled cause,
and are
as follows:

First- State
your age, and the present condition of your health, and whether in its
condition you could travel to attend in person, at Beaver, the court
now
sitting there?If not, state why not.

Answer- To the
first interrogatory, he saith:
I am in my
seventy-fifth year.It would be a great
risk, both to my health and life, for me to travel to Beaver at this
present
time.I am, and have been for some time,
an invalid.

Second- What
offices, either ecclesiastical, civil, or military, did you hold in the
year
1857?Answer- I was
the Governor of this territory , and ex-officio, Superintendent of
Indian
Affairs, and the President of the Church ofJesus
Christ of Latter-Day Saints, during the year 1857.

Third- State
the condition of affairs between the Territory of Utah
and the Federal
Government, in the summer and fall of 1857.

Answer
- In Mayor June, 1857, the United
States
mails for Utah were stopped by the
Government,
and all communication by mail was cut off, an army of the United States, was en route for Utah, with the
ostensible design of destroying the Latter-Day Saints, according to the
reports
that reached us from the East.

Fourth - Were there any United States
judges here during
the Summer and Fall of 1857?

Answer - To the best of
my recollection there was no United States
judge here in the latter part of 1857.

Fifth
- State what you know about trains of emigrants passing through
the territory
to the West, and particularly about a company from Arkansas,
en route for California,
passing through this city in the summer or fall of 1857?

Answer - As usual,
emigrants' trains were passing through
our Territory for the West. I heard it rumored that a company from Arkansas, en route to California, had passed through the
city.

Sixth - Was this Arkansas company of emigrants ordered away from Salt Lake City
by
yourself or anyone in authority under you?

Answer - No, not that
I know of. I never heard of any such thing, and certainly no such order
was
given by the acting Governor.

Seventh
- Was any counselor instructions given by any person to the
citizens of Utah not to sell grain or
trade with the emigrant trains
pass­ing through Utah
at that time? If so, what were those instructions and counsel?

Answer - Yes, counsel
and advice were given to the citizens
not to sell grain to the emigrants to feed their stock, but to let them
have
suf­ficient for themselves if they were out. The simple reason for
this was
that for several years our crops had been short, and the prospect was
at that
time that we might have trouble with the United States army, then en
route
for this place, and we wanted to preserve the grain for food. The
citizens of
the Territory were counseled not to feed grain to their own stock. No
person
was ever punished or called in question for fur­nishing supplies to
the
emigrants, within my knowledge

Eighth - When did you
first hear of the attack and destruction of this Arkansas Company at
Mountain
Meadows, in September, 1857?

Answer - I did not
learn anything of the attack or destruction of the Arkansas Company
until some
time after it occurred - then only by floating rumor.

Ninth
- Did John D. Lee report to you at any time after this massacre
what had been
done at that massacre, and if so, what did you reply to him in
reference
thereto?

Answer
- Within some two or three months after the massacre he called
at my office and
had much to say with regard to the Indians, their being stirred up to
anger and
threatening the settlements of the whites, and then commenced giving an
account
of the massacre. I told him to stop, as from what I had already heard
by rumor,
I did not wish my feel­ings harrowed up with a recital of detail.

Tenth
- Did Philip Klingensmith call at your office with John D. Lee
at the time Lee
made his report, and did you at that time order Smith to turn over the
stock to
Lee, and order them not to talk about the mas­sacre

Answer
- No. He did not call with John D. Lee, and I have no
recol­lection of his ever
speaking to me nor I to him concerning the massacre or anything
pertaining to
the property.

Eleventh
- Did you ever give any directions concerning the property taken
from the
emigrants at the Mountain Meadows Massacre, or know anything as to its
disposition?

Answer
- No, I never gave any directions concerning the property taken
from the
company of emigrants at the Mountain Meadows Massacre, nor did I know
anything
of that property or its disposal, and I do not to this day, except from
public
rumor.

Twelfth
- Why did you not, as Governor, institute proceedings
forth­with to investigate
that massacre, and bring the guilty authors thereof to justice

Answer
- Because another Governor had been appointed by the President
of the United States,
and was then on the way to take my place, and I did not know how soon
he might
arrive, and because the United States Judges were not in the Territory.
Soon
after Governor Cummings arrived, I asked him to take Judge Cradlebaugh,
who
belonged to the Southern District, with him, and I would accompany them
with
sufficient aid to investigate the matter and bring the offend­ers
to justice

Thirteenth
- Did you, about the 10th of September, 1857, receive a
communication from Isaac
C. Haight, or any other person of CedarCity, concerning a
company of
emigrants called the Arkansas
company?

Answer - I did
receive a communication from Isaac C. Haight, or John D. Lee, who was a
farmer
for the Indians.

Fourteenth - Have you that
communication?

Answer - I have not. I
have made diligent search for it, but
cannot find it.

Fifteenth - Did you answer that
communication?

Answer - I did, to Isaac
C. Haight, who was then acting
president at CedarCity.

Sixteenth - Will you
state the substance of your letter to him? Answer - Yes. It was to
let this
company of emigrants, and all com­panies of emigrants, pass through
the country
unmolested, and to allay the angry feelings of the Indians as much as
possible.

(Signed) BRIGHAM YOUNG

Subscribed and sworn
to before me on this 30th day of July, A.D. 1875

[L. S.] WM. CLAYTON,
notary Public

LABAN
MORRILL TESTIMONY, witness for the prosecution

Q:
Where do you reside?

A: IronCounty,
at what is called FortJohnson.

Q: How long have you
lived in the
Territory?

A: Since 1852.

Q: Do you know the
location of Mountain
Meadows?

A: No, sir. I never was
there.

Q: Where did you live in
1857?

A: I think I lived at CedarCity.

Q: How far is CedarCity
from Beaver?

A: About thirty miles.

Q: Did you, in 1857, know
any thing
about an emigrant train, known as the Arkansas
emigrant train, passing through the Territory to Southern
California, or starting to pass?

A: By report only.

Q: Did you have any thing
to do as an
officer or citizen, at CedarCity, with
regard to the
passage of those emigrants? If you did, state what you know about their
passage,
in your own way.

A: Merely by report, that
there was a
company come through CedarCity. I
lived off at a
place called FortJohnson, six
miles and a
half. I was engaged at that time some little in seeing what was called
the best
locality, or what would do the best good for some three or four little
places, CedarCity, FortJohnson
and Shirts' Creek. We had formed a kind of a custom to come together
about once
a week, to take into consideration what would be the best good for
those three
places. I happened on Sunday to come to CedarCity,
as I usually came, and there seemed to be a council. We met together
about four
o'clock, as a general thing, on Sunday evening after service. I went
into the
council, and saw there was a little excite­ment in regard to
something I did
not understand. I went in at a rather late hour. I inquired of the rest
what
was the matter. They said a com­pany had passed along toward
Mountain Meadows.
There were many threats given concerning this company.

SPICER
- for Defendant - We object to these conversations, in which the
witness has
not shown that the defendant was present.

HOWARD - for the People - We expect
to connect Mr. Lee with
it in this way: We propose to show that at that council a report was
made that
the Indians had stopped this train of emigrants, or were about to stop
them;
and we propose to show further that at that time, in consequence of the
condition of the country, it was claimed by some people that they
should be
held until a message could be sent to Salt Lake and their passage
secured; that
Mr. Morrill appeared there - others being in favor of stop­ping the
emigrants,
and perhaps doing more than that. Mr. Morrill appeared there and
insisted that
no interference should be had with them until orders came from Brigham
Young -
from headquarters _ and at first insisting that they should be allowed
to pass
unmolested. That the Indians should not
be allowed to molest them if it could be avoided. That they should be
prevented
by all means from interfering with them. Mr. Morrill made several
speeches to
that council in favor of that propo­sition, and that finally an
agreement was
made that the emigrants should not
be interfered with, and suspend all proceedings in regard to even
stopping them
until a message should come from Brigham Young. At that time Brigham
Young was
not only the President of the
Church, but Governor of the Territory, and Indian Agent. We propose to
follow
it up by showing that an agreement was made and
a messenger sent posthaste to SaltLake.
We propose to follow it up by showing that a messenger was sent to see
that the
Indians did not interfere with the emigrants. We propose to follow it
up by
showing that John D. Lee received that
word. That that was the agreement of that council, and that he must not
allow
those emigrants to be interfered with. That he not only
received that word, but that he made the remark that he
had
something to say about it. The man who carried the message was told
that he had
better get out of the way himself, or he would get hurt. There has been
an
effort made to show that others besides John D. Lee commenced this
attack. We
pro­pose to show to this jury that the attack was made in defiance
of the
authorities. That they not only held the
lives of those emigrants secure; were not only anxious that they should
be
allowed to pass, but that they should be protected from the Indians, in
order
to show their sincerity and do what was right in view of the
circumstances,
made a solemn agreement there among themselves that the emigrants should not be interfered with until a
dispatch could be sent to Governor Young and returned. We propose to
show that
that dispatch was sent to Governor Young by that messenger, with
instructions
not to spare horseflesh, but to ride there day and night; that before
this
messenger returned, John D. Lee, in defiance of that council, massacred
the
emigrants.

SPICER - If the gentleman proposes
to
prove that Lee did anything con­trary to the orders of the Church
Council, we
will withdraw our objec­tions. But we know the prosecution will
fail in the
effort. Lee did noth­ing that was contrary to Council, and the fact
is, he
obeyed orders.

HOWARD - Mr. Morrill, the court
directs that you state what
was done at that Council?

A:. As I said, there appeared
to be some
confusion in that Council. I inquired in a friendly way what was
up. I was told that there was an emigrant train that passed along down
to near
Mountain Meadows, and that they had made threats in regard to us as a
people -
said they would destroy every d--d Mormon. There was an army coming on
the
south and north, and it created some little excitement. I made two or
three
replies in a kind of debate of measures that were taken into
considera­tion,
discussing the object, what method we thought best to take in regard to
protecting the lives of the citizens

My objections were not
coincided with.
At last we touched upon the topic like this: We should still keep
quiet, and a
dispatch should be sent to Governor Young to know what would be the
best
course. The vote was unanimous. I considered it so. It seemed to be the
understanding that on the coming morning, or next day, there should be
a
messenger dispatched. I took some pains to inquire and know if it would
be sent
in the morning. The papers were said to be made out, and Governor Young
should
be informed, and no hostile course pursued till his return. I returned
back to FortJohnson,
feeling that all was well. About eight and forty hours before the
messenger
returned - business called me to Cedar City, and I learned that the job had been done, that is, the
destruction of the emigrants had taken place. I can't give any further
evidence
on the subject at present.

Q: What was the name of
the messenger sent to SaltLake?

A: James Haslem.

Cross examined by W.W. BISHOP –

Q: You think that about
forty-eight
hours before the messenger returned from SaltLake,
you learned that the job was done, the
people killed at Mountain Meadows. Do you mean by that, the killing
that had
been talked of at that Council?

A: I suppose it was, sir.

Q: Who was present at
that Council that
you recollect?

A: Mr. Smith.

Q: Give me the name of
any there that
you can call to mind?

A: I think Isaac C.
Haight was there.

Q: Was John D. Lee
present?

A: No, sir, not to my
knowl­edge

Q: Did you see that
messenger start to
Brigham Young?

A: I did not.

Q: Did you see the
message that he took
to Brigham Young?

A: I did not.

Q: Did you ever read it?

A: I did not.

Q: Did you know, or have
any knowledge
that any written communication was given by the Council to anyone to
carry to
President Young?

A: The understanding of
the Council was
that one should be written out for him prior to his starting.

Q: Do you know of your
own knowledge that one was written
out?

A: I did­n't see Mr.
Haight, but he should have made it out
in time. I didn't see the paper

Q:
Then the understanding of the Council, as I take it, was this, that
different
parties presented different plans for having the people follow the
emigrants;
that after all this argument it was agreed by the parties there that a
messenger should go to Brigham Young for instructions as to how the
people
should treat the emigrants in that train, and nothing should be done
with those
emigrants until that messenger returned?

A:
That was the agreement - I understood it so.

Q:
Who else did they agree to send a messenger to?

A:
I heard of no other but Governor Young. That was my proposition.

Q: Then you never heard
of a messenger being sent to any
other place, or to any other party, from that Council?

A: No, I did not pay any
attention to any other point, or
what was considered; only the one point that a messenger should go to
President
Young.

Redirect by HOWARD –

Q: Did you understand
that a messenger was to be sent down
to John D. Lee?

A: I did, but I did not
see him start. I understood that at
the same time a messenger was to be sent.

Q:
What did you understand?

A:
I understood that there was to be word sent down towards Pinto Creek.

Q:
For what purpose?

A:
To have the thing stayed according to contract, to agreement made.

Q:
What do you mean by the thing being stayed? Was the massacre of that
emigrant
train discussed there at all?

A:
It was, sir; and some were in favor of it, and some were not.

Q:
Who were they?

A:
Bishop Smith, I considered, was the hardest man I had to contend with.

Q:
Who else spoke about it?

A:
Isaac Haight and one or two others. I recollect my companions more than
anyone
else.

Q: They were very anxious
and rabid were they not?

A: They seemed to think
it would be best to kill the
emigrants. Some of the emigrants swore that they had killed old Joseph
Smith;
there was quite a little excitement there.

Q:
You have given us the names of two who were in favor of killing those
emigrants
- who were the others?

A:
Those were my companions, Isaac C. Haight and Klingensmith. I recollect
no
others.

Q:
You remember that council, and the agreement that they would not do
anything
until word came back from President Young?

A:
Yes, sir.

Q: Although you didn't
see either of
those messengers start, you under­stood messengers were sent each
way

A: Yes, sir; to stay the
opposition
until that messenger returned.

Re-cross
examination –

Q:
You say you understood a messenger was to be sent to Pinto Creek. Did
John D.
Lee live
at Pinto Creek?

A:
He lived at Harmony.

Q:
Was it mentioned in that Council that a messenger was to be sent to
Pinto Creek
to stay the thing until the other messenger got back?

A:
Understand me, there was nothing said in that Council in regard to
Pinto, only
that the thing should be stayed. They took such measures to stay it as
they
thought proper. After the messenger, Mr. Haslem, returned I asked Mr.
Haight
about it, and he said he had sent word to let them pass, of course.
That was
the end of my experience in regard to it.

HOWARD-

Q:
Where did John D. Lee live at that time?

A:
He lived at Harmony.

Q:
How far is Harmony from Pinto Creek?

A:
I don't know.

Q:
What was his position at that time?

A:
He was a man of some influence among the Indians, and also held a
position in
the military.

Q:
Was he not Indian Farmer?

A:
I think he had done something towards it. One thing I passed over at
that
Council; I inquired by what authority they were doing it, and they said
by
their own authority. Says I, has Dame got a letter here; is there
anything from
Mr. Dame of Parowan? They said no. I demanded a written letter or order
from
him before I would act; they said they had none.

SAMUEL
KNIGHT TESTIMONY

(witness
for the prosecution)

Q: Where do
you live?

A: I live at Santa Clara.

Q:
How long have you lived there?

A:
In the neighborhood of twenty-two years.

Q: Where did
you live in '57?

A: I lived at Santa Clara; that was my
house.I lived on the Mountain Meadows.
I was stopping on the Mountain Meadows that summer.

Q: Will you state how you came up to
Mountain Meadows, and
how you were situated there?

A: My family was sick at the time, and I
moved my family up
on account of the hot weather. I was herding stock at the Meadows and
milking
cows.

Q:
Who was with you?

A:
Jake Hamblin and myself were proprietors.

Q:
Describe that locality to the court and jury?

A:
The location in at the north end of what is termed MeadowValley.

Q:
How long is the MeadowValley?

A:
Four miles long, and about one mile wide.

Q: Is it entirely surrounded by mountains
and hills?

A: Yes, sir, it is entire­ly
surrounded, except a gap at
this end - the gap at which Hamblin's Ranch was situated, and the gap
at the
other end leads you out on the desert. It has a stream that leads to
the Santa Clara
stream.

Q: On the first of September,
1857, you say you were
stopping there with your wife, who was out of health?

A: A few days before she had been confined, and was
lying
nearly at the point of death; we were living in a wagon box by the side
of Jake
Hamblin's board shanty.

Q: Did you about that
time go down to your place at Santa
Clara?

A: Yes, sir, from Mountain Meadows. I went down a few days previous
to this occurrence - this massacre - to see to some business down there
- about
watering the crop there.

Q:
What time did you return?

A:
It is not in my memory, the day of the week.

Q:
With reference to the general massacre?

A:
It was the evening after it had been done in the morning - that is, the
first
attack.

Q:
I mean with reference to the general massacre of the women and
chil­dren?

A:
That was nearly a week, I think.

Q:
You are sure about that, are you?

A:
I don't exactly remember, but it was several days.

Q:
What do you mean by the first attack, and from whom did you get your
information?

A:
What information I got was from John D. Lee.

Q:
State the particulars?

A:
As I said before, I was on my way to where I was staying at the time
from my
home at Santa Clara.
From the ranch to Santa Clara
settlement was thirty-five miles.

Q: How far below the lower
mountain of the Mountain Meadows?

A: About ten miles to where I met John D.
Lee. I think he
had on a hickory shirt, a straw hat, and homespun pants.

Q:
Did you have any conversation?

A:
Yes, sir. As I was riding along he hailed me.

Q: Who was
with you?

A: I don't
know that it is proper for me to state.

Q:
Had you up to that time known any thing about the attack on the
emi­grants?

A:
No, sir, I had not.

Q: Did you notice any thing
peculiar about John D. Lee at
that time?

A: He showed me some bullet holes in his
clothing, and may
be one or two in his hat.

Q: State the
conversation.

A: All the conversation?

Q: You can tell what you
recollect.

A: I think he told me
that he had made an attack with the
Indians, and got repulsed.

Q:
When did he say he had made it?

A:
I think that morning at daylight, or near daylight.

Q:
Do you know whether he told you so or not?

A:
I am pretty positive he did.

Q: Did he tell you any thing about any
escape that he had
had?

A: He said he had run a narrow escape,
showing me the holes
in his hat and shirt, where he had narrowly escaped being shot.

Q: State all the conversation.

A: He rode along with us up to some eight
or ten miles of
where his camp was. When I saw him it was getting dusk, and we rode
along
together as far as the camp.

Q: Was he
alone when he met you?

A: Yes, sir,
as far as I know.

Q: Did he tell you whether any other white
man had been with
him in the attack?

A: I am not certain. I got the impression
from what he told
me that there was not.

Q:
Did he tell you from whom he got the bullets through his clothes, or
not?

A:
I took it, of course.

Q:
Did he say he got it on that assault on the emigrants?

A:
I can't give the exact language.

Q: What was the substance of what he told
you about it?

A: I collected from what he said that he
had attacked the
camp of these emigrants with the Indians, and that in making the attack
he
received the shots from the camp, that the bullets had come near to
him, one
through his shirt and another through his hat.

Q: Did he say
anything about having a narrow escape?

A: I think he
did.

Q:
What camp did he refer to?

A:
The camp of the Mountain Meadows emigrants.

Q: You say he came back part of the way to
the Mountain
Meadows?

A: I don't know but what he went clear
across the Meadows, I
am not posi­tive. I know he rode back with me. He rode back to
where the camp
was, at least, but whether he stopped there or not I will not be
positive.

Q: Did you see him go towards the Indian
camp afterwards?

A: I didn't know where the Indian camp
was. It was in the
night. He came to me about dusk. It was eight or nine o'clock when we
got to
where the camp was located. I went right over to my home.

Q:
State whether you noticed anything peculiar about Mr. Lee's person,
aside from
his dress. No, nothing more than what I have stated.

A:
State whether he had any paint on him. I didn't notice any. It was
between
sundown and daylight. It was nearly dusk when I
first saw him. We hadn't talked but a
few minutes, when it was dark.

Q:long a
time passed until the general
massacre?

A:
Some five or six days.

Q:
Did you remain there with your wife during all that time?

A:
Yes, sir, with the exception of being out after my stock once or twice.

Q:
Had you anything to do with Lee, or see him after that time?

A:
He was over at Hamblin's ranch a few times.

Q: What was he
there for?

A: I don't
know.

Q:
Did he come alone?

A:
He was there with other men, but how he came I don't know.

Q: Did he at
any time come to you to get your teams?

A: Yes, sir.

Q:
What day was that with reference to the massacre of the men, women and
children?

A: It was the
day it was done.

Q:
What time?

A:
I think it was a little before 12 o'clock, the middle of the day.

Q: Who came
with him?

A: I think it
was Klingensmith.

Q: Where were you, and what were you
doing?

A: I was at home waiting upon my sick
wife, who was there in
the wagon, and doing chores nec­essary to be done about home.

Q: State the conversation that took place
between you and
Lee, or you and Klingensmith, in the presence of Lee, about what they
came for?

A: They told me they came to get my team
and wagon to go
over and haul away the sick and wounded from the train, and take them
back to
the settlements where they could care for them, as wagons were scarce.
I didn't
consent st first, I told them that I didn't want to go, that my family
needed
my presence at home. They insisted that I should go and said that duty
called
me to go. I said if the team went I should go myself with it. My team
was a
young team and had just been broke a few days, and the horses were
fractious.

Q: From that point what was done?

A: Well, I went over. I hitched up my team
and went over.
Went with a common lumber wagon and box on it.

Q: Did you
leave your wife there?

A: Yes, sir.

Q: Where did you go?

A: I went right on to the Mountain
Meadows, right on to the
south end of the Mountain Meadows, or near there. I drove up to a camp
of
Indians and men camped somewhere to the left of the road, probably half
a mile,
may be not so far, at a little spring to the left of the road, and
waited there
a little while. I stopped some four or five rods from this camp and
stood by my
team until I was told to drive down towards the camp.

Q: Who told
you?

A: It is not
in my memory.

Q: Did you
drive down towards the camp?

A: I did.

Q: What camp?

A: The
emigrant camp.

Q:
Did any other conveyance go down at the same time?

A:
Yes, sir, anoth­er wagon, I went behind it.

Q: Did you see
Lee there?

A: Yes, sir.

Q: Tell what he did from the first time
you saw him that
morning on that particular piece of ground?

A: I don't know what he did all the time.
While I was
waiting at the camp I don't know that I saw him while I was there.

Q: How far was
that from the emigrants?

A: I think
nearly half a mile.

Q: Did you see
anybody go to that emigrant camp?

A: No, sir. I
saw a man car­rying a white flag.

Q: Who was
that man?

A: I could not
tell.

Q:
Was anybody with him?

A:
Yes, sir, I think John D. Lee was with him, or near him, and walked
down to the
camp.

Q: What occurred there?

A: They walked with this white flag near
the camp, and
another man met them with a white rag on a stick. He came from the
emigrant
camp, and they met some distance from the camp, and held a consultation
for a
few minutes, and then we were told to drive along, or motioned to.

Q:
Did any other man besides this man and John D. Lee go?

A:
Not any dis­tance. I don't remember that they did.

Q: Who held that consultation?

A: I was not acquainted with them, and was some distance
from them, but I think it was John D. Lee, the man that carried the
flag, and
one or two who came from the emigrant camp.

Q:
Who motioned for you to go along after the consultation?

A:
I can't tell, but the whole fraternity up there moved along with the
wagons.

Q:
When you got down to the camp what occurred?

A:
My wagon was loaded with some guns, some bedding, and a few individuals.

Q: Who
superintended that loading up?

A: John D.
Lee.

Q:
What guns were loaded into your wagons?

A:
The guns from the emi­grant camp

Q: When the
emigrants came out afterwards, were they armed or not?

A: They were
not; not that I saw.

Q: What did they load into your wagon?

A: Guns, bedding, and some cloth­ing
of different kinds, and
several persons got in. I think three or four got in

Q:
What were those persons?

A:
As near as I can recollect, there were two men, one woman, and, I
think, some
children.

Q:
State whether those men were wounded then, sick men, or what?

A:
I think they were wounded, but I stood holding my team.

Q:
State whether it was quite necessary for you to give all your attention
to your
team?

A:
I considered it so.

Q: Then what
occurred?

A: After they
were loaded in we were told to drive on towards home.

Q:
By whom?

A:
I can't recollect.

Q:
Did you drive along?

A:
We did.

Q:
Do you know what was put into the other wagon?

A:
Mostly people.

Q:
Were both those wagons loaded from the emigrant camp?

A:
Yes, sir. I started towards my home, north across the Meadows,
lengthwise of
the Meadows. It led to the north.

Q:
After you started, how close did the other wagon follow?

A:
I followed it; it went ahead.

Q:
What followed you?

A:
The men, women and children; coming along after we drove out a little
ways.

Q:
Did you understand, from what you saw there, that the emigrants vacated
that
camp and followed you?

A:
I did, sir.

Q:
As you passed along, did you go with them, or did you go faster?

A:
We traveled a little faster.

Q: How far in advance of them did you get?

A: I think we got, may be, a quarter of a
mile. It might not
have been that far, but quite a little dis­tance

Q: What order did those emigrants march
in, whether single
file, two abreast, or how?

A: I could not give any testimony on that.
I did not look
back to see.

Q: Who
accompanied you with your wagon, who came along?

A: I remem­ber
John D. Lee being along with the wagons

Q: Ahead of
the emigrants?

A: Yes, sir.

Q:
Did anything occur after you had got up to the point designated as,
perhaps, a
quarter of a mile ahead of those emigrants?

A:
The first thing that I heard had occurred. I heard a gun fired.

Q: Where was
that gun?

A: I don't
know the locality exactly. It was behind me.

Q: Was it near
you, or down where the emigrants were?

A: It was
below.

Q: How far
behind you?

A: I should
judge nearly a quarter of a mile, the first gun I heard.

Q: What
occurred then?

A: I looked
around and saw the Indians rising up from behind the brush, and went to
butchering these emigrants.

Q:
Did you see anything of them?

A:
I didn't see anything of the emigrants.

Q:
Did you see any of those emigrants in your wagon interfered with?

A: No, sir;
not after I heard the first sound of the gun. I leaped from my wagon to
see to
my team.

Q:
Did you see John D. Lee do anything to any of those emigrants?

A:
I saw John D. Lee raise something in the act of striking a person - I
think it
was a woman. I saw that person fall, but my attention was attracted at
the same
time to my team jumping and lunging.

Q: What became
of that woman?

A: I could not
say.

Q:
Will you state to the jury the manner of that striking?

A:
Well, as near as I can recollect it, it was done as though he had a
club or gun
in his hands, but which of the two I cannot tell. She was falling when
I first
saw her. When I turned my eyes away she was falling.

Q:
You know he struck that woman?

A:
Yes, sir.

Q:
Either with a gun or with a club?

A:
Yes, sir.

Q: Your team,
you say, became very fractious. Is that all you saw John Lee do?

A: That is all
I could be positive about.

Q: What was he
doing besides that?

A: I could not
be positive what he was doing all the time.

Q: State
whether all of those people were killed there and then?

A: They were;
those in the wagon were all killed.

Q: Was it in
your wagon or the one behind you that John D. Lee struck that woman?

A: It was in
the one ahead of me.

Q: Was that
woman killed?

A: I think she
was. They were all killed.

Q: How many
cattle had this emigrant train?

A: I don't
know, sir. Should judge three or four
hundred head.

Q:
Do you know who drove these cattle away from that ground?

A:
No, sir; I do not.

Q: Do you know
whose men drove them off?

A: No, sir;
only by report - by rumor.

Q:
Did you see Lee drive any of them?

A:
No, sir; I did not.

Q:
Did you hear him say anything about it?

A:
I did not.

Q:
Did Lee remain there until all in the wagons were killed?

A:
I think he did.

Q: Where did
you go then?

A: I drove
immediately home.

Q:
Which way did Lee go?

A:
I don't know - he was on the ground when I left.

Q:
Do you know the names of any of those parties who were killed there?

A:
No, sir; I do not.

Cross
examined –

Q: How many people were present around the
wagons when you
say you saw Lee strike the woman?

A: I don't know how many.

Q: Were there any others there except Lee
and yourself?

A: I have an impression that there were,
but I don't know
who they were. I have always had an idea that there were one or two
more men.

Q: Don't you know, as a matter of fact,
that there were?

A: Yes, sir; there was another man that
drove the other
wagon, but how many more I don't know.

Q:
You don't know the names of the men?

A:
Not that I recollect of.

Q:
Were any Indians around there?

A:
Yes, sir.

Q: Any around
the wagons?

A: Yes, sir.

Q: Did you see them take any part in the
killing?

A: Yes, sir; they took some part in the
killing. There were
not more than one or two men there, John D. Lee and the men that drove
the
wagon.

Q: How many
Indians?

A: I can't
tell.

Q: Isn't it a matter of fact that about
that time you wanted
to got away from there, and to see as little as possible?

A: I paid just as little attention as I
possibly could.

Q:
Didn't you make an effort to see as little of it as you could?

A:
I did, sir.

Q:
That explains why you did not see all of it?

A:
Yes, sir, I took all the pains I could to see as little as I could.

Q:
Did not the Indians raise a yell, and make a rush for the wagon before
you
jumped out?

A:
Yes, sir, or about that time.

Q:
Were they not surrounding the wagons at the time you saw Lee strike?

A:
Yes, sir.

Q: There were
Indians all around and close to you at the time?

A: Yes, sir,
there were Indians a round; quite a number all round there.

Q: Did they
rush toward the people in the wagons with hostile inten­tions

A: Yes, sir,
with apparently hostile intentions.

Q: You saw
them kill a number of people - didn't they kill that woman?

A: It was my
impression that John D. Lee killed her.

Q: Do you
know?

A: Yes, sir, I
do.

Q:
Did you see him do anything else except strike?

A:
No, sir.

Q:
That much you did see?

A:
Yes, sir, I did.

Q: Who was
that man with you at the Meadows, the first time you saw John D. Lee,
the night
after the first attack?

A: I decline
to tell.

Redirect -

Q: State where those cattle of the
emigrants were at the time of the massacre.

A: They were north a little; up this
way.

Q: How soon
after that were they driven away?

A: I think
next day.

Q: Do you know
whose men drove them away?

A: I do not.

Q: Were the
emigrants' wagons destroyed there on the ground, or were they taken
away?

A: I don't
know. They passed along.

Q: Was the
field cleared of the emigrant property?

A: Yes, sir,
cattle and everything.

Q: Were any
wagons burned or destroyed?

A: No, sir,
not that I know of.

Q: How long
did you stay there after that?

A: Nearly a
month.

SAMUEL
McMURDY, witness for the prosecution

Q:
Where do you live now?

A:
I live In Cache County, Paradise.

Q:
Did you live in any other place than Paradise
in 1857?

A:
I lived at CedarCity. I
don't recollect dates.

Q:
Did you live there at the time of the Mountain Meadows Massacre?

A:
Yes, sir.

Q:
State whether you were called upon to go to Mountain Meadows?

A:
I was called upon to go and take my team and wagon.

Q:
By whom?

A:
I believe it was John M. Higbee that called me.

Q:
State from that point the circumstances?

A:
I was threshing my grain. I had my grain spread out in the yard, and
was
tramping it with horses at the time I was called upon. I was notified
to leave
in two hours' notice. It was sometime in the afternoon that I was
called upon.

Q:
Of what day?

A:
I could not state.

Q:
With reference to the date of the general massacre?

A:
I think It was a day prior to it.

Q:
Was it stated to you for what purpose you were to go there?

A:
No, sir.

Q:
Did you know?

A:
No, sir.

Q:
Did you go?

A:
Yes, sir.

Q:
Who went with you?

A:
There were a number that went in the wagon with me. Some I can
recollect,
Klingensmith for one, a man by the name of Hopkins, and two or three more
besides that
went during the time that I went down, I understood from the men that
were in
the wagon. I asked them what was the matter. They told me that the
emigrants
had been attacked, and we had to go down and arrest the attack, if
possible.
That was the purpose that I expected to go for - was to preserve the
emigrants
from the Indians.

Q:
What time did you get there?

A:
It was in the afternoon when we start­ed - late. It must have been
way in the
night when we got there. I could not tell you the time. We traveled a
good many
hours in the night. Got there and turned out the horses and camped.

Q:
Did you stay until morning?

A:
Yes, sir; staid there till morning, and dur­ing the next day I got
up my
horses

Q:
Anybody give you orders?

A:
Yes, sir.

Q:
Who?

A:
John D. Lee. He told me to take the wagon and follow him to camp.

Q:
What camp?

A:
The camp of the emigrants.

Q:
The emigrants that were afterwards killed?

A:
Yes, sir.

Q:
Did you go?

A:
I did.

Q:
State what you saw.

A:
I went with him to camp, and there was another wagon, if I recollect
right. The
man that drove the wagon was a stranger to me. I never saw him before.
When we
got within a short distance of the camp there was a man with a flag of
truce
sent out.

Q:
Who was that man?

A:
His name was Mr. Bateman.

Q:
Where is he?

A:
Dead.

Q:
Where was he sent from?

A:
Sent from where we stood with the wag­ons

Q:
Who went with him?

A:
John D. Lee followed immediately afterwards.

Q:
What occurred?

A:
A man came out from the camp and had an interview with John D. Lee.

Q:
What was the substance of that conversation?

A:
I was too far off to tell. I saw Lee and this man talking.

Q:
Did you hear any of the talking?

A:
Not any that I could distinguish.

Q:
After they talked what was done?

A:
After they talked they seemed to come to an understanding, ten, fifteen
or
twenty minutes, then Lee ordered us to drive up the wagons. We drove up
the
wagons. The emi­grants, assisted by Lee, loaded the wagons. My
wagon was loaded
with some bedding, some truck of different kinds, belonging to the
people that
got in. Some would have their things with them, as if they were going a
journey. A number got in, men, women and children, from the emigrant
camp, some
of them apparently wounded. I could not say how many, it is so long
ago. I
never charged my memory with it. I could not state how many there were.

Q:
Go on.

A:
We were ordered to start out by John D. Lee, and we started out from
that
place.

Q:
State whether the other wagon was loaded also?

A:
It was.

Q:
Were there any guns put into either wagon?

A:
There were not in mine.

Q:
Did you at any time leave your team?

A:
No, sir.

Q:
When John D. Lee directed you to drive, what took place?

A:
We pro­ceeded some distance on the Meadows. Mine was the head team

Q:
Who accompanied you?

A:
John D. Lee was walking behind the wagon, between the two wagons.

By
THE COURT –

Q:Were there any persons in those two wagons?

A:
Yes, sir. They were loaded up with persons and things.

Q:
Were both of those wagons loaded with men, women and children from that
camp of
emigrants?

A:
Yes, sir, and other things besides.

Q:
How many got into your wagon?

A:
I could not say. It is impossible for me to tell. I should think half a
dozen.

Q:
What were they - men and women; any children in yours?

A:
I think there were some small children.

Q:
And as you started on you saw Lee take a position between the two
wagons and
walk on behind you?

A:
Yes, sir.

Q:
How far behind you?

A:
I could not tell you. I had as much as I could do to attend to my team.
We must
have been quite a little distance ahead of the other team. My team was
a very
fast walking team. Lee checked me up several times. I had to hold on to
the
lines.

Q:
Did he give you any reasons for it?

A:
No, sir. I out walked him. We walked very fast.

Q:
How many times did he tell you not to walk so fast?

A:
Several times.

HOWARD
–

Q:What occurred from that point?

A:
He called to me to halt after we got out of sight of the camp.

Q:
Who did?

A:
John D. Lee. When we got out of sight, over the hill, there is where we
passed
out of sight of everything. There is a rising ground there. We were
this side
of it, and everything back towards the emigrants was out of sight. When
we got
to this place Lee ordered me to halt. At that instant I heard the sound
of a
gun. I turned and looked over my shoulder, and Lee had his gun to his
shoulder,
and when the gun had exploded I saw, I think it was a woman, fall
backwards. I
had to tend to my team at the time.

Q:
Who discharged that gun?

A:
John D. Lee must have discharged it.

Q:
Did he hold it in his hand?

A:
Yes, sir. He must have hit her in the back of the head. She fell
immediately.

Q:
Go on.

A:
I turned round. It seemed to me like I heard sounds of strik­ing
with a heavy
instrument, like a gun would make, but I never saw any striking done.
But I
turned round to the other side a few minutes after­wards, and saw
Lee draw his
pistol and shoot from two to three in the head of those who were in the
wagon

Q:
Did he kill them?

A:
He must have killed them.

Q:
What were these he shot - men, women or children?

A:
Men and women.

Q:
And they fell off underneath the wagon, then and there?

A:
I could not say then and there. They must have been all killed.

Q:
Did you go back at all?

A:
No, sir.

Q:
Never wanted to go back?

A:
No, sir - never.

Q:
Who fired the first gun - which was the first gun fired?

A:
It would be impossible for me to tell. The first gun I heard was the
first gun fired
right at the back of me that attracted my attention.

Q:
You looked around and saw the gun in Lee's hands?

A:
Yes, sir; that was the first gun I heard.

Q:
Were there immediately volleys of firing?

A:
Yes, sir; I heard firing immediately afterwards.

Q:
Was that the signal to begin firing?

A:
Yes, sir, that was the beginning. How long after Lee told you to halt
was that firing?

A:
It was instantly done.

Q:
And you looked around and saw the gun?

A:
Yes, sir.

Cross
examined –

Q:
You say that you got your orders from Higbee to go down there?

A:
I believe it was from Higbee, but I am not sure. I am almost positive
it was
from him.

Q:
Did Higbee go with you?

A:
I don't recollect.

Q:
Where did you camp that night?

A:
On the Meadows.

Q:
How many men were there?

A:
I could not say.

Q:
About how many men were there?

A:
I could not give it, because I went in the dark, and had my team to
hunt next
morning. I turned them out, and
it took up all my attention.

Q:
Next morning how many men did you see there?

A:
I don't recollect anything about it.

Q:
You did not see anybody there except yourself, and John D. Lee, and the
man
that carried the flag, did you?

A:
I saw a good many there, but they were strangers to me.

Q:
You can't tell about how many were there?

A:
I might if I had counted them, and impressed my memory with it.

Q:
Do you think there is anything you saw, during the time you were absent
from
home, but what is burned into
your memory, so that it is impossible for you to forget it?

A:
Yes, sir, a number of things.

Q:
One of the principal things that you cannot recollect is the names of
your
friends who were there?

A:
I don't know that I had any friends there, any more than I have here.

Q:
Can you give me the names of any of the men that you saw there that day?

A:
Well, sir, I could not really recollect. I suppose not, I might if I
was to sit
down and think for a while. A little thing like that you would not
recollect.

Q:
Will you please tell me the names of the parties that were present on
the
ground, at the time you started to drive down to the emigrant camp?

A:
It is impossible for me to do it.

Q:
How many men were in sight at the time you started to drive down
­of your
friends, parties from Cedar City or elsewhere?

A:
Well, sir, I could not say. I don't recollect seeing any of them. I was
too
much absorbed in my team and in my own surroundings.

Q:
What caused you to be so much absorbed?

A:
Any man that has a team to attend to under circumstances of firing of
guns -

Q:
Were any guns firing then?

A:
Not then.

Q:
You did not got roused up until after they had loaded your wagon. Had anything happened to excite you previous
to the loading up of your wagon at the emigrant camp?

A: I am not aware of anything
particularly.

Q:
You didn't know at that time that anyone was to be killed?

A:
No, sir.

Q:
You had not even heard that anyone was to be killed?

A:
No, sir.

Q:
You thought you were on an errand of mercy?

A:
Yes, sir.

Q:
You thought you had gone there in good faith to help those emigrants
back to
Cedar City?

A:
Yes, sir, that was my understanding.

Q:
You had driven down across the valley to the emigrant camp, and the
only men
you saw during that entire time were John D. Lee and this man that
carried the
flag?

A:
I saw a lot of emigrants around there.

Q:
I am speaking now of the people who lived in that vicinity?

A:
Outside of the men that lived at Cedar City, they were strangers to me,
and I
could not tell who they were.

Q:
You saw them the night before?

A:
No, sir, I did not.

Q:
Didn't you see them on the ground before you started to drive down to
the
emigrant camp?

A:
I could not say that I did. I don't recollect of see­ing any
quantity of men
where I was, at all

Q:
You didn't see any Indians that morning?

A:
No, sir.

Q:
No Indians at the time of the killing?

A:
I could not say about that. I believe there were Indians around.

Q:
Well, do you know?

A:
I don't recollect.

Q:
You do not recollect to have seen any Indians?

A:
Yes, sir, I saw Indians around there, but at the precise moment of time
I could
not say.

Q:
Did you see more than one or two Indians?

A:
I saw a great many Indians there after the firing commenced.

Q:
Where did those Indians come from?

A:
I don't know.

Q:
What were they doing?

A:
I could not tell.

Q:
Did you see them commit any acts of hostility?

A:
I don't recollect. I don't doubt but they did, but I can't recollect of
their
doing anything of the kind.

Q:
You pretend to say now that at the time the gun was fired, and from
that time
on, your excitement and fear were so great that you can't
rec­ollect all that
did happen?

A:
Yes, sir, that's about true.

Q:
How far did you haul those people after they were killed?

A:
Left them right there.

Q:
Who took them out?

A:
John D. Lee.

Q:
Don't you think he killed a dozen?

A:
I could not tell.

Q:
Give us your best impression?

A:
My impression is that there might be half a dozen.

Q:
You did not help kill anyone - did you kill anyone there?

A:
I had nothing to do with it at all.

Q:
Then you did not raise your hand against anyone at that time, or do any
of the
killing of the emigrants?

A:
I believe I am not upon trial, sir.

Q:
I ask if you refuse to answer the question?

A: No answer.

Q:
Did you upon that occasion, on the day when the Mountain, Meadows
Massacre took
place, kill any person upon that ground or assist in the killing of any
person?

A: I don't wish to answer.

Q:
You say every person that was in the wagons was killed?

A:
To my best recollection and knowledge.

Q:
Don't you know, as a matter of fact, that there were some seventeen
children in
those wagons that were not killed?

A:
I don't recollect the num­ber

Q:
Don't you know there were a number of children that were not killed?

A:
Yes, sir.

Q:
Explain what you mean?

A:
I mean all of the grown persons were killed, the children were saved,
sir. I
believe I assisted to haul them away, to take them off.

Redirect
–

Q:
How many children were saved from the massacre?

A:
I have no recollection.

Q:
Where did you take them to - those that you had?

A:
They were distrib­uted around; one went to one house, and another
to another.

Testimony of Nelphi
Johnson

Sworn for the
prosecution.

Q: Where did you live in
l857?

A: I lived at a place
called FortJohnson, IronCounty.

Q: What was your
business?

A: I was living with my
father - farmer.

Q: Were you an Indian
interpreter?

A: Yes, sir; I could talk
some with the Indians at that
time.

Q: Were you at the
Mountain Meadows Massacre?

A: Yes, sir.

Q: How
old were you at that time?

A: I was in my nineteenth
year.

Q: Did you kill
anybody, or help to kill anybody there?

A: No, sir, I did
not.

Q: Tell this
court
and jury all you know about that?

A: I was called on
Thursday of the week they were killed. They were killed the next day.

Q: Where were you?

A: I was on my father's
farm, finishing up my har­vesting.

Q: What occurred?

A: There was a young
man by the name of Clewes - his name has been mentioned here. I am not
certain
about its being Clewes, it may have been young Klingensmith, came down
with a
note from Isaac C. Haight, that I was wanted in Cedar City. I went to
Cedar
City, and he told me some men were going out to the Mountain Meadows
and that I
must accompany them, and I did so.

Q: What did he tell
you they were going there for?

A: He didn't tell me.
I understood they were
going out to bring in the dead, slain by the Indians.

Q: Would you have gone if
you had had any other
understanding?

A: No, not if I could
have helped it.

Q: Did you go there?

A: Yes, sir.

Q: What time did you get
there?

A: I should judge between
twelve and one o'clock in the night.
I got to Hamblin's ranch at that time.

Q: Who did you see there?

A: I saw John D. Lee and
Klingensmith, and a man by the name
of Western. I did not see those men until morning.

Q: Was Hamblin at home?

A: No, sir; he was not.

Q: Did you learn that he
had gone any where?

A: Yes, sir.

Q: Did you have any
conversation with Lee about his having been in a fight with the
emigrants?

A: No, sir; I didn't
have any conversation with him in relation to it.

Q: Did you hear him say
anything about it?

A: Yes, sir.

Q: What did you hear him
say?

A: In speaking to the
Indians, he referred to having been in
a fight with the emigrants.

Q: What did he say?

A: He said that the
Indians and himself had made an attack
on the emigrants and been repulsed.

Q: What else did he say?
Did he say anything about running
any narrow risks?

A: No, sir; he did not.

Q: Did he show any place
where his clothing was shot?

A: There was a bullet
hole which I noticed in his shirt,
which the Indians told me was received down at the camp in that attack.

Q: Anything about his
hat?

A: I didn't notice
anything about his hat.

Q: Did you notice
anything about paint on him?

A: After mature
reflection, I don't think I did; I have the impression that I noticed
something
of that kind around his hair.

Q: Did he say when the
attack was made?

A: He told me (those were
a few Indians he was telling)
there were three Indians there that had been wounded, and I was
conversing with
them after I got in, in the night.

Q: Were you acquainted
with the Indians - the Pah Vant
Indians?

A: Yes, sir; somewhat
acquainted.

Q: Were you
acquainted with the Indians below?

A: Yes, sir.

Q: What was Lee's
position at that time with the Indians?

A: Well, he used to farm
for them, help them to farm.

Q: What was his influence
over them?

A: His influence was
good.

Q: Were any of the Pah
Vent Indians down there?

A: I didn't see any.

Q: You are now at
Hamblin's ranch, Friday morning. State
what took place that day on the ground.

A: I got on my horse in
the morning.

Q: Why did you do it?

A: John D. Lee told
me to, and Klingensmith told me to go with them down to the camp. The
main
Indian camp was down below the emigrant train, and I got on my horse
and rode
down with them in the morning. There were some men camped down on the
mead­ows,
down near the Indian camp. There a few men there, and a few arrived
while I was
there. They were talking around. I didn't know what was said. A man
went out
near to the emigrant camp, and there was a white flag - a flag of truce
on a
stick sent down to the emigrant camp.

Q: Who sent it down?

A: It was John D. Lee
had the management of the concern, if I understand it right - well, I
will say
that he did.

Q: Follow that flag
of truce, what occurred?

A: It went down to
the emi­grant camp, and two men came out and met it and returned
back again,
and John D. Lee and another man went down to meet with the two that
came out of
the camp.

Q: Did they talk?

A: They spoke there a
while, I could not hear what was said.

Q: Did they appear to
be in conversation?

A: Yes, sir; and
finally they returned, and some wagons were sent for to go down to the
camp and
take out some clothing and guns, and some few wounded.

Q: Who directed those
wagons to go?

A: Well, sir, it was
Klingensmith or John D. Lee, they seemed to be engineering the thing.

Q: Did John D. Lee go
down to the emigrant camp?

A: Yes, sir.

Q: How many people
were loaded into those wagons, and who were those people?

A: I can't tell you.
Just as they went down I was where the men were. I had ridden down and
tied my
horse to a root on the hill; he got loose and I went for him, as the
wagons
went down to the emigrant camp, just as the wagons started away from
the camp.

Q: How many wagons
started from the camp?

A: Two.

Q: What position did
you occupy?

A: I had not got back
with my horse.

Q: Were you on the
hill - on a prominence?

A: I was not over 800
yards from the people, where the people were passing along; the
emigrants
following the wagons.

Q: How many wagons?

A: Two.

Q: Were these people
in those wagons?

A: Yes, sir.

Q: Did you see Lee
there?

A: Yes, sir.

Q: What position did
he occupy when you saw him?

A: Following between
the wagons.

Q: Which way were they
going?

A: North, towards
Hamblin's ranch.

Q: Did you see the
emigrants following the wagons out of
their camp.

A: Yes, sir.

Q: Were they armed or
unarmed?

A: Not armed.

Q: How far behind the
wagons?

A: The women and children
along with the wagons, the men a
little behind.

Q: Do you mean along in
the trail behind the wagons?

A: Yes, sir.

Q: And the men behind
all?

A: Yes, sir.

Q: How many of them?

A: I should judge
about twenty-five or thirty men.

Q: How many women?

A: Probably there
were not so many women as men.

Q: You don't pretend
to give the number?

A: No, sir.

Q: How far from the
wagons at the head of the column were the people that were walking?

A: The wagons got a
good deal ahead.

Q: Were the people
marching
in double or single file?

A: I could not tell
you. The women and children were following along promiscuously, and
some of the
men.

Q: Were you where you
could see the wagons plain and see
Lee?

A: Yes, SIr.

Q: Were you armed?

A: I had a pistol.

Q: Did you shoot it off
at all?

A: No, sir.

Q: Did you have
anything to do, in any way, shape or manner with that massacre?

A: No, sir.

Q: Will you tell the
jury what you saw done at those wagons, and the order in which you saw
it?

A: When the wagons
got up a piece ahead of the men I heard a gun fired.

Q: Where was it?

A: I think it was
behind. I am not sure it was behind the wagons. I turned round to look,
and at
that the Indians and whites made a rush, and there was a general
firing.

Q: Where was that gun
fired off?

A: I think the gun fired
was some distance behind the
wagons.

Q: What took place then?

A: The people were
killed.

Q: Did you see any of
them killed?

A: Yes, sir.

Q: Did you see John
D. Lee kill any of them?

A. I saw him fire
off, and saw a woman fall as I looked down to the wagons.

Q: What wagon was it?

A: I am not certain. I
think it was the lead wagon.

Q: Tell what occurred?

A: I saw his
gun fired, heard the report of the gun and saw it fired, and saw a
person fall,
and the gun was held in his hand

Q: Did it kill her?

A: I didn't go to see.
The Indians rushed.

Q: What did you see
him do next?

A: I looked down
below to the men that were below, and then when I looked back again -

Q: Was the massacre going
on then down lower?

A: Yes, sir, Indians and
all along the line. I saw John D.
Lee and some Indians pulling some per­sons out of the wagons.

Q: What did you see
him do to anybody else?

A: I can't swear, but
from the motions I should say he cut a man's throat.

Q:
Tell how he did it?

A:
I can't tell you, only I saw his arms moving around pulling men out of
the
wagons. They went to the left of him. I was not near enough to see, but
he
seemed to hold on to him.

Q: Who pulled him out
of the wagon?

A: John D. Lee and an
Indian.

Q: Did you see John
D. Lee make any motions?

A: I did.

Q: What were they?

A: I thought at the time
that he was cutting a man's throat,
but then I was so far off.

Q: You were in plain
sight?

A: Yes, sir.

Q: Have you any doubt
that to what he did there?

A: No, sir.

Q: What else did you
see him do?

A: I didn't see him
do anything else at the time.

Q: At any other time?

A: No, sir.

Q: Did you see him do
anything else towards killing those people?

A: No, sir.

Q: How long a time
did it occupy, that massacre?

A: Not over five
minutes - not over three minutes.

Q: How many people were
killed, do you know?

A: No, sir, I don't.

Q: Did you have any
conversation with John D. Lee after that
about it?

A: I have had at
different times, but I don't know that I
can recollect the conversation that passed.

Q:
Did you ever have a conversation with him in which he told you the
particulars
of the first attack?

A:
He told me once something in relation to it, but it is so long ago. It
was only
that he attacked them; that the attack was made just as daylight was
appearing
in the morning. He said he went with the Indians to make the attack.

Q: Did he give you any
reasons for making the attack?

A: No, sir.

Q: How many
cattle were there belonging to that train?

A: That I cannot tell.
There was quite a number - quite a
lot of stock.

Q: How many wagons did
those emigrants have?

A: Thirteen I counted.

Q: Do you know what was
done with the cattle?

A: Taken to Iron Springs.

Q: Who took them around
there?

A: I don't know who took
them there- some men took them
there.

Q: Do you know of Lee
having and using any of the wagons
afterwards?

A: I saw some of the
wagons at Harmony several weeks
afterwards.

Q: What did you say
became of the cattle?

A: Taken to Iron Springs.

Q: By whom?

A: I understood by John
D. Lee's orders.

Q: Do you know what
was done with the cattle?

A: I saw some of the
cat­tle afterwards on the Harmony range close to Lee's residence.

Q: There under his
charge?

A: I suppose so. I am not
definite about that.

Q: Do you know whether
any of them were killed by Lee?

A: No, sir. Never saw him
kill any of them; he told me once
that he had given the Indians several beeves, and the Indians told me
he had.

Q:
How long had you been acquainted with the Indians in Southern Utah at
the time
of the massacre?

A:
I had been somewhat acquainted with them for five years. I came to Iron
County
in the Spring of '51 and resided there until '57.

Q: Were your
relations with the Indians intimate?

A: With some portions
of them they were.

Q:
Do you know at that date, the time of this massacre, what the
rela­tions were
existing between the people of Southern Utah and the Indians; whether
they were
hostile or whether they were friendly?

A:
They were friendly.

Q: State whether they
were in good subjection or not?

Bishop objected to the
introduction of this testimony by
this witness.

First, because the
proper foundation had not been laid to show that this witness knew how
far the
Indians had been placed under subjection. Second, because the
prosecution had
introduced written evidence, doc­uments written by Brigham Young
and John D.
Lee, to show the exact condition of the Indians at that time, and
before that.
Third, they seek to prove that the Indians were friendly to the people
of Utah;
that is irrel­evant and immaterial here, from this fact, that there
is no
question now before the court or jury as to whether the Indians of Utah
were
friendly with the citizens of Utah or not. It is not claimed by either
the
prosecu­tion or the defense, that the Indians had made any attack
at that time,
or that they afterwards made any attack on the citizens of Utah. The
only
question on trial is as to the fate of certain people, nonresidents of
Utah,
and the fact as to whether this defendant was connected with their
tak­ing off
or not.

After argument the question was withdrawn.

Q: What was the
influence of John D. Lee over the Indians of Southern Utah, those that
were
there present at, the massacre?

Objected to until it
is shown that this party knows what that influence was.

Question withdrawn.

Q: Do
you know the relations existing between John D. Lee
and those Indians?

A: The relations between
John D. Lee and those Indians, a
small portion of Indians that roved around in there, were good; but the
Indians
further south, I don't know. The Indians of Santa Clara, and further
on, I did
not know.

Q:
Had you any information, before you went there, from John D. Lee's
Indians,
that he had control of, that he had promised to go there?

A:
I had information from Indians that went there.

Q: How long was that
before you went?

A: It was on Monday
evening, before the massacre on Friday.

Q: What was that
information?

Objected to. Question
withdrawn.

Cross examined –

Q: How old were you
at the time of the massacre?

A: I was in my
twentieth year.

Q: Where were you at
the time Mr. Haight ordered you to go the Mountain Meadows?

A: I was at Cedar
City.

Q: What time in the
day was that?

A: It was some time
in the afternoon of Thursday.

Q: The day before the
massacre?

A: Yes, sir.

Q: How many men went
with you to Cedar City?

A: Two went with me
to Cedar City.

Q:
Who were they?

A:
Klingensmith's son, and I can't recollect who the other was, came down
to tell
me I was wanted there. A man by the name of Charles Hopkins, and
Charles
Western, went with me to the Meadows. I went on horseback, and John
Western
went with the wag­ons. There were no others went at that time.
There were
others before, I understood.

Q: How many did you
find there when you got there, citizens of Cedar City and the
surrounding
country?

A: I can't tell you
the number.

Q: How many, ten, fifteen
or twenty?

A: I should judge ten or
fifteen.

Q:
Is it not a fact that there were more than twenty five or thirty men,
white men
- there, that you saw on the ground?

A:
There might have been.

Q: Wasn't there that
number?

A: I could not tell you.

Q: Why can't you tell
me?

A: Because I didn't
count them. I was not there long enough to ascertain the number of men
that
were there.

Q:
Where did you go that night when you went on the ground?

A:
I went to Hamblin's ranch. Got there about twelve or one o'clock - not
far from
midnight - and lay down there till morning.

Q: What time did you
get to the Meadows next morning?

A: It was some time
in the forepart of the day.

Q: Did you go to the camp
where the citizens were located?

A: Yes, sir.

Q: About how many men did
you find there?

A: There were some in two
places. I found some eight or ten
at the place I went.

Q: Did you go to the
other place?

A: I didn't go there.

Q: Then how do you
know men were there?

A: I saw them. How
far off? Some were in sight.

Q: Were they within half
a mile of you?

A: Yes, sir.

Q:
Were there any Indians on the Meadows after you got there?

A:
Yes, sir.

Q:
Where were the Indians with reference to the white men?

A:
The Indians camped some distance from the whites.

Q: Were the Indians out
of their camp and up at that of the
whites?

A: Several came up while
I was there.

Q: Then
after they
came up to see you they staid up there around where the white men were?

A: Yes, sir.

Q:
What men were at the camp where you stopped?

A:
Well, sir, I didn't stop at the camp. I stayed there a few minutes and
talked
to Mr. Bateman.

Q: Who did you see there?

A: Mr. Bateman, Charles
Hopkins and Klingensmith, where I
was talking.

Q: Where is Bateman?

A: Dead.

Q: Where is Hopkins?

A: I understand he is
dead.

Q: Do you refer to
the same Klingensmith that was a witness at the last trial?

A: He was the man
that was Bishop at Cedar City.

Q: Where is Western?

A: I can't tell you.
I don't know whether he is dead or alive.

Q: Did you see Isaac C.
Haight?

A: Not when I first went
to the camp.

Q: You saw him around at
the Meadows?

A: Yes, sir, I saw him at
the Meadows.

Q: Did you see a man by
the name of Stewart?

A: I don't recollect.

Q: Did you see Higbee?

A: Yes sir.

Q: Wilden?

A: I don't recollect.

Q: Did you see old man
Young?

A: Yes, sir.

Q: How many others did
you see?

A: I can't tell you.

Q:
You stayed there a few minutes and then went to get your horse; where
was it
you heard the conversation between John D. Lee and the Indians?

A:
It was at the camp at Hamblin's ranch.

Q: Give that entire
conversation that passed between John D. Lee and the Indians?

A: I can't.

Q: Start in
and give
from the first to the last of it as well as you can?

A: I
don't know as I
can, sir.

Q: What language did John
D. Lee talk in to the Indians?

A: He had an Indian boy
as interpreter.

Q:
Who was that Indian interpreter?

A:
It was the Indian boy called Alma, I think, that he would talk with and
then
have the Indian interpret it to the Indians.

Q: Then he talked English
and the boy interpreted to the
Indians?

A: I sup­pose so.

Q:
You understood both languages. Do you remember whether the Indian
interpreted
and told the Indian what Lee said, or not?

A:
I didn't hear him tell the boy anything about the attack.

Q:
Didn't you testify that you had a talk with Lee, and that you heard him
talk
with the Indians, and say that he had attacked the emigrants?

A:
No, sir, I said the Indians told me so. Yes, sir; I did. Lee was
talking when I
went to the camp, and he did say so.

Q: Tell me whether he
talked English or Indian?

A: He
talked English to me and told me so.

Q: Give me that
conversation?

A: He told me they
attacked the camp on Monday night, and
been repulsed.

Q: What else?

A: I can't be expected to
remember all the conversation
twenty years ago.

Q: I want all that you do
know. Do you know any more about
it? Can you recollect anything more that he said?

A: Nothing that I
recollect.

Q: Did he give you any
reason for attacking the emigrants?

A: No,
sir.

Q:
Did you find any fault with him for attacking them? Was anything said
about
whether it was right or wrong?

A:
No, sir; I was a boy; I didn't consider it my business to talk to my
superior
officers in regard to such things.

Q:
How was that about Lee being your superior officer?

A:
I say I was a boy and didn't consider I had a right to talk to a man in
his
position in such matters.

Q: Did he have any
control over you?

A: No.

Q: What right had he to
control your actions?

No answer.

Q: What
position did he hold that gave him the right to
direct your movements?

A: I was sent there.

Q:
You have spoken of his being your superior officer. Tell me what
position John
D. Lee held that enabled him to control your actions?

A:
They called him Major Lee, and I was sent by Major Haight to go to the
Mountain
Meadows, to Major Lee.

Q: That is the reason you
considered that you had nothing to
do with it?

A: Yes, sir.

Q: Did Haight tell you
what you were to do there?

A: No, sir.

Q: He simply told you to
go to the Mountain Meadows?

A: Yes, sir.

Q: What do you mean by
your evidence, when you were asked by
Mr. Howard a question, and you answered that you would not have gone to
the
Meadows if you had known what was to be done?

A: That is, not if I
could help it.

Q: State whether you were
under any compulsion?

A: I didn't consider it
was safe for me to object.

Q:
Explain what you mean, that is what I want. Where was the danger
­who was the
danger to come from if you objected - from Haight or those around him -
from
the Indians, or from the emigrants?

A:
From the mili­tary officers.

Q: Where?

A: At Cedar City.

Q: Was Haight one of
those military officers?

A: Yes, sir.

Q: Who was the highest
military officer in Cedar City at
that time?

A: I think it was Isaac
C. Haight.

Q:
You thought it would not be safe for you to refuse, had you any
rea­sons to
fear danger - had any persons ever been injured for not obeying, or
anything of
that kind?

A:
I don't want to answer.

Q:
It is necessary to the safety of the man I am defending, and I
there­fore
insist upon an answer. Had any person ever been injured for not
obeying?

A: Yes,
sir; they had.

Q:
And from what you had seen before that, you thought it was your duty,
under the
circumstances, to obey counsel, or commands given you by Haight?

A:
Yes, sir.

Q: Did Haight hold any
office except that of Major in the
military?

A: He held the office of
President of Cedar City.

Q: An ecclesiastical
office - President of that Stake of
Zion, I believe you call it?

A: Yes, sir.

Q: Tell me how old Haight
was then?

A: I can't.

Q: A man full grown, I
presume?

A: Yes, sir.

Q:
After you had caught your horse, how far were you from the wagons at
the time
you heard the first firing?

A:
Well, I was not over 300 yards, and perhaps not more than 250.

Q:
What was the nature of the ground?

A:I
was on higher ground; if you have ever been
to the Mountain Meadows, it gradually descends down from the mountains
to the
meadows.

Q: You were on the upland
- above the wagons?

A: Yes, sir.

Q: Between you and
those parties were there any trees or shrubbery, or anything of that
kind?

A: There were some to
my left - kind of behind me.

Q: You were at the left
of the column?

A: To the right of the
column.

Q: Then to your left, in
between you and the wagons, there
was nothing to obstruct your vision whatever?

A: Not between me and the
wagons.

Q: At that time could
you see down to the meadows to where the prin­cipal part of the
emigrants were
killed?

A: I could see the
head of the col­umn of the emigrants. The lower part of the column
was hid by
this oak bush that is there.

Q: Did you see any
Indians there at the time you heard this first shot, or soon
afterwards?

A: Yes, sir, soon
afterwards.

Q: You stopped your
horse at the time you heard the first shot and paid particular
attention to
what was going on?

A: Yes, sir.

Q: You continued there
inactive until the whole thing was
over?

A: Yes, sir.

Q: You say you saw John
D. Lee there. Did you not see Samuel
McMurdy, one of the drivers, there also?

A: Yes, sir.

Q: What did he do?

A: He was holding his
horses all the time. I did not see him let go of them.

Q: Do you know
whether he took part in the killing, or not?

A: No, sir, I don't.
I can't say.

Q: What was Sam
Knight doing?

A: Sam Knight, when I
looked around, was out on the ground holding his horses.

Q: How long did they
stand there and hold their horses?

A: Not long. The
killing did not last over five minutes.

Q: What did they do
when they let go of their horses?

A: I saw the wagons
going off. There was another white man there along with the Indians,
but who he
was I do not know. I can't tell. I never inquired to find out.

Q: It was none of your
business?

A: No, sir.

Q: And you just let
the matter pass? But you did see John D. Lee killing emigrants, but you
don't
know who else killed any?

A: No,
sir.

Q: You have not tried to
find out since, have you?

A: No, sir, I have not.

Q: You have talked this
over a great many times since, and
heard it talked over, I suppose?

A: No, sir, but very
little.

Q: You have had
people ask you about the facts and circumstances fre­quently?

A: Yes, sir, but it
is something that I have avoided.

Q: Is this the first
time, since you arrived in Beaver City, that you have talked this thing
all
over, except when talking to the attorneys for pros­ecution?

No answer.

Q: From your silence I
see you wish to avoid talking to me,
too. You have never talked this over to anyone?

A: No, sir.

Q: Until you came to
Beaver?

A: I might have done so.
I can't recollect.

Q: How many of the
military did you see drawn up in line
there on the field of the Mountain Meadows, about the time the wagons
drove
off?

A: I can't tell you.

Q: Quite a number, were
there not?

A: Yes, sir.

Q: Who was commanding
that military body drawn up in line there?

A: I can't tell which
it was, Klingensmith or John M. Higbee.

Q: They were both there?

A: Yes, sir, I think so.

Q: Is it not the fact
that these men were drawn up in military line - stand­ing there
with arms in
their hands - within two hundred yards of the emigrant camp?

A: I can't tell you.

Q: Did you see them
march in?

A: I saw them
marching, as I told you; when I got my horse and turned back I saw them
marching.

Q: I understood you
to say that it was the emigrants that you saw march­ing after the
wagons. Did
you see the militia from Cedar City marching too, at the same time?

A: There were men
coming all along all together. I can't tell you whether they were
militia or
emigrants. All were march­ing
along together.

Q: About what time
did the emigrants come out of the camp?

A: It was some time
in the afternoon, I think.

Q: How long had you
been there at the Mountain Meadows, before the massacre took place?

A: Well, I went from
Hamblin's ranch in the morn­ing; I hadn't been there a great while.

JOHNSON –

Q: Where were you born?

A: I was born in the
State of Ohio. How old were you when
you arrived in Utah? I was some twelve

years of age.

Q: Came I suppose with
your parents, to Utah Territory?

A: Yes, sir.

Q: Resided In Utah ever
since?

A: Yes, sir.

Q: Reside now at
Johnson's Fort, the same place you did at
that time?

A: No, sir.

Q: Where do you live
now? Shall I answer that question?

A: Yes, sir, I live
at Kanab.

Q: How long have you
lived there?

A: About four months.

Q: Where had you been
living before that, since you lived at Fort Johnson? After the massacre
how
long did you live at Fort Johnson?

A: I moved into the
Rio Virgin in the fall of '58.

Q: How long did you
remain there?

A: Well, I can count
up in a minute - I lived there ten or twelve years.

Q: Then where did you
move to?

A: I moved to the Sevier.

Q: And from there to
Kanab, where you live now?

A: Yes, sir.

Q: You say you saw a lot
of the wagons at Harmony afterward?

A: I will not swear to
but one.

Q: Did you ever see any
of the wagons at any other place -
did you not see some of them at Cedar City?

A: Yes, sir.

Q: Where were they in
Cedar City?

A: They were at
Klingensmith's.

Q: How many did you see?

A: Two.

Q: What position did
Klingensmith occupy at that time?

A: He was Bishop of Cedar
City Ward.

Q: You spoke of
seeing some cattle on the Harmony range. Did you ever see any of those
cattle
on any other range?

A: They were running
about Harmony and Kanab.

Q: Who had possession
or control of them?

A: I can't tell you.

Q: Do you know how
they were branded after that?

A: No, sir.

Q: How did you recognize
them?

A: I recognized them by
the brand that was on them of
"S."

Q: Did you notice
that they were branded with a "B" the first time you saw them?

A: Yes, and they were
a different kind of stock; they were Texas cattle, a good many of them
Texas
cattle with long broad horns. There were none in the country that I
ever saw
until I saw those.

Q: Go on again and
tell us just exactly what you saw John D. Lee do; tell me all that you
saw him
do. I want you to make it just as full and bad as you can.

A: I have told you
what I saw.

Q: Tell it to me again.

A: I told you that I saw
him fire a gun, and saw a per­son
fall.

Q: Go on and give it all
just as you saw it; the whole
thing.

A: And then after that I
saw him and the Indians pulling
people out of the wagons.

Q: What else?

A: That is what I told
you before.

Q: I cannot help that, I
am now asking you to tell what you
know.

A: That is what I did
see.

Q: Is that all you saw?

A: Yes, sir.

Q: You know the parties
had their throats cut, I suppose?

A: No, sir.

Q: You went down and
looked at the bodies afterwards?

A: No, sir, I did not; I
did not want to.

Q: Then it is only a
supposition, that the parties' throats
were cut?

A: That is all.

Q: Did you ever go back
to see if those persons were dead or
not?

A: No, sir, I did not; I
saw them lying there after the
wagons had driven away.

Q: Do you know
whether they were dead or not, of your own knowl­edge?

A: No, sir, I do not.
I saw persons lying on the ground dead, back below where the troops
were.

Q: How far from you?

A: I went to them.

Q: Then you did go
back? Were they men that Lee killed, or were they men, killed by
Klingensmith's
men, where he and Higbee were? T

A: They were down
where Klingensmith and Higbee were.

Q: Then you did go
down to that place?

A: Yes, sir; John D.
Lee sent me down to the wagons, that were down below, to keep the
Indians from
taking the things out of the wagons.

Q: How did he get you
there?

A: He told me to go, and
I went.

Q: Did you ride down
to him after this killing was over?

A: I went over to
where Klingensmith was and Lee came down; he sent me down there to the
wagons.

Q: What did he say
when he told you to go back?

A: He told me that he
wanted me to go down to the wagons of the emigrants and keep the
Indians from
taking the things out.

Q: How long did you
stay there?

A: I stayed there
till John D. Lee and Isaac Haight came down.

Q: Are you certain that
Lee came back?

A: Yes, sir.

Q: Don't you know as
a matter of fact that Lee went on to Hamblin's ranch?

A: I stayed there at
the wagons until after he came back from Hamblin's ranch.

Q: How long did you stay
there?

A: I can't tell you.

Q: Did you sleep
there in the field that night with White, Klingensmith and others?

A: I think likely I
did. I stayed there until John D. Lee and Isaac C. Haight came down.

Q: Don't you know you
stayed there that night, and until the
wagons were moved away?

A: I think I did.

Q: Don't you know that
you did?

A: Yes, sir, I do.

Q: Who took those wagons
away - who ordered the hitching up
of the oxen and taking away of the wagons?

A: I don't know.

Q: Was it Klingensmith?

A: No, sir; he did not.

Q: Did John D. Lee?

A: No, sir. I don't know.

Q: Didn't you help drive
the stock?

A: I went with them
around to the Iron Springs.

Q: Who helped take the
wagons down there - can't you give me
the names of a few of them?

Witness refused to
answer.

Q: How many whites did
you see on the Mountain Meadows, at
the time of the massacre?

A: I did not count them.

Q: About how many?

A: There was a
considerable number, as many as forty or
fifty.

Q: How far were they from
where you kept watch at the
wagons?

A: About half a mile.

Q: Half a mile from the
emigrants' wagons?

A: Yes, sir; about that
far.

Q: Who kept watch with
you that night at the emigrant camp,
to keep the Indians from stealing?

A: I don't want to bring in new names.

Q: I see you do not -
except Lee's - how is that?

A: I have mentioned a
good many names.

Q: You have been
sworn to tell the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth;
and I want
you to tell me the names of those men.

A: Well, a man named
Ure was with me.

Q: What was his fall
name?

A: John Ure.

Q: How old was he?

A: I can't tell.

Q: Was he a man grown?

A: Yes, sir.

Q: Is he living or dead?

A: He is alive.

Q: How long was it
after you went there to keep the Indians from steal­ing that these
other
parties came to you?

A: I don't recollect
of any com­ing until John D. Lee and Isaac C. Haight came.

Q: Next day?

A: Yes, sir.

Q: Did you succeed in
keeping the Indians from stealing
there?

A: They had taken a good
deal before I went there. After I
went they didn't.

Q: You had considerable
control over the Indians when you
got there. They knew you, and you could talk their language, and when
you told
them to do anything they would do it?

A: Some of them would,
and some wouldn't.

Q: They all agreed to
quit stealing, didn't they?

A: No, sir.

Q: How did you keep them
from stealing, then?

A: I didn't.

Q: What did they steal
after you got there?

A: I can't tell you.

Q: Did they steal
anything - you know whether they did or not?

A: The Indians were
at the wagons when I arrived and had taken out a good deal of stuff.

Q: What did they do after
you arrived?

A: They took off what
they wanted.

Q: Did they stop stealing
when you told them to?

A: Not altogether.

Q: What did they take
away?

A: Bedding and blankets.

Q: Isn't it a fact that
they took just what they wanted, and
that you did not stop them from stealing?

A: I did stop some of
them.

Q: Well, didn't they
carry off all they wanted?

A: They didn't carry it
all away, but they did a good part
of it.

Q: How many did you keep
from stealing?

A: Five or six.

Q: How many Indians
were there that you could not stop; how many were there around the
wagons?

A: There was quite a
lot that went away with their goods.

Q: Fifty, seventy five,
or one hundred?

A: Not that many.

Q: How many did you
see that day altogether?

A: There was a great
num­ber - over a hundred - there was a great number of them took
horses and
started off.

Q: Where did they get the
horses?

A: From around that
section of country.

Q: Emigrants' horses, I
suppose?

A: Yes, sir.

Q: About how many horses
did the emigrants have there?

A: I can't tell you.

Q: Didn't you see the
herd?

A: I saw the Indians
with horses that they said they got there, but I did not see the herd
of stock
until it was started to the Iron Springs. I only came there the night
before.

Q: Did you do anything
toward burying the dead after the
massacre?

A: No, sir.

Q: Then you did not help
do that?

A: No, sir.

Q: Were you there at
the time it was being done?

A: I saw men there
work­ing at it from where I was at the camp. They commenced burying
the dead
right off.

Q: The same evening of
the massacre?

A: Well, sir, I can't
tell you.

Q: You cannot tell
whether it was the same night or the next
morning?

A: I cannot.

Q: What number of men
went from there to the Iron Springs
with you?

A: There were some ten or
twelve went along. I went on
afterward. I had my horse. I rode my horse.

Q: Give me the names
of as many as you can that went with you from the Meadows to the Iron
Springs
the day afterward.

A: I can't. I don't
know as I can give the names.

Q: If you say you cannot
give the names, I will not press
it.

A: Well, I say I cannot.

Q: You say you cannot
recollect any of the names of those
who helped drive the stock?

A: No, sir, I can't.

Q: Who had charge of
property as it was driven to the
springs?

A: That I cannot tell.

Q: What was Klingensmith
doing there?

A: I don't know. I don't
recollect seeing him along.

Q: When did you last see
Higbee there on the field? Did you
see him after the massacre?

A: Yes, sir.

Q: Did you see him the
day after the massacre?

A: I can't tell whether I
did or not.

Q: Were you present
at any council that was held there on the field pre­vious to the
massacre, and
hear any agreement as to the killing of the emigrants or anything of
that sort?

A: No, sir, I didn't.

Q: You did not hear that
anybody was to be killed until you
heard the shooting?

A: Yes, sir.

Q: When?

A: When I started after
my horse I heard that the people
were to be killed.

Q: Who told you?

A: John D. Lee told me.

Q: I thought you said he
had left you?

A: He talked of it before
he went to the camp.

Q: Just before that,
then?

A: Yes, sir.

Q: I wish to get at
all this, because I want you to tell everything that John D. Lee did.
Tell me
what he said to you about it?

A: He was talking to
the men about getting the men out of their fortification.

Q: Was this after the
flag of truce had been sent?

A: No, sir, before that.

Q: Who was Lee talking
to?

A: Klingensmith, Higbee
and others.

Q: Who were the others?

A: I can't tell you.

Q: How many others?

A: There was quite a lot
of men.

Q: Thirty or forty?

A: I should judge there
were.

Q: Did you hear Higbee
say anything?

A: Higbee may have
talked.

Q: Did any person make
any objection to the killing of the
emigrants?

A: It is a thing, sir,
that I don't like to answer.

Q: I wish you to
answer my question. Did any man or men, person or persons, there on the
ground,
make an objection to the killing of all the emigrants?

A: Yes, sir, a good many objected. But they didn't
dare to say anything.

Q: How do you know they
objected?

A: They dare not speak
about it to those men.

Q: Did they speak up at
the Council and make objections?

A: I was not at the
Council.

Q: Did anyone of that
thirty or forty men raise a voice against the killing of the emigrants,
at the
Council, on the field, or in the presence of Lee, Higbee or
Klingensmith, or
anyone else?

A: No,
sir, they did
not.

Q: What did John D. Lee
say about it in the presence of
Haight and Higbee?

A: He said we must get
them out of there.

Q: Who was he talking
to then?

A: Higbee and the
others.

Q: Were they talking
the matter over?

A: Yes, sir.

Q: Tell me what was said?

A: I can't recollect.

Q: Do you recollect what
Haight said?

A: Haight was not there.

Q: Then how was it that
Lee was talking to Haight and Higbee
if Haight was not there?

A: It was Higbee and
Klingensmith he was talking to.

Q: What was it that
Klingensmith said about killing the
emigrants?

A: I can't tell.

Q: Then you cannot
recollect what anyone said or did except
John D. Lee?

A: No, because John D.
Lee was the most conspicuous man in
the whole thing.

Q: Klingensmith, the
Bishop of the Church at Cedar City, Haight and Higbee, as Majors in the
militia, all stood back and gave John D. Lee full control, did they?

A: He had control of
everything on the field. He acted like a man that had control.

Q: Did he not have
control?

A: I can't say.

Q: Did you not think at
the time that John D. Lee had full
control of everything and of every person there?

A: He acted like it.

Q: What do you believe
about it?

A: No
answer.

Q: Haight ordered you to
go there?

A: Yes, and when I got
there I went to Lee; that was the
instruction.

Q: And you stayed by him
and obeyed all of his orders?

A: No, sir, he
want­ed me to talk to the Indians in a way I
didn't want to.

Q: Tell me how he
wanted you to talk to the Indians?

A: He wanted me to
tell them that they would get the emigrants out some way, so they could
get
their guns and horses.

Q: You refused to tell
the Indians that, did you?

A: Well, I talked to them
some.

Q: Did you tell them
that or not?

A: I don't wish to
answer that.

COURT
–

You need not tell
anything to incriminate yourself.

BISHOP –

Q: Can you tell me
anything besides that, that you heard
John Lee say?

A: No, sir, I cannot.
That is all I recollect.

Q: What time of day was
that, when Lee said, "We must
get them out some way?

A: It was
in the fore-part of the day.

Q: Who was in hearing
distance when Lee said that?

A: I decline to answer.

HOWARD –

Q: You don't decline
because it would incriminate you, do
you?

A: No, sir.

Q: Then you cannot
decline.

BISHOP-

Q: Tell me
who was present, and heard that statement of Lee's?

A: I can't tell -
there was a lot of them there.

Q: After you arrived at
Iron Springs, did you and those with
you talk the matter over and agree to keep it a secret?

A: The matter was talked
over at the camp, and again at the
Springs, about keeping it a secret, but I can't tell what the agreement
was that was come to.

Q: Was the subject talked
over as to whether it should be
talked over afterwards or not?

A: I don't recollect.

Q: After that did you
talk it over with those who were
engaged in the affair with you, in which conversation you learned it
was best
to keep silent concerning the whole thing?

A: It was talked of that
way - that it was best to keep
still.

Q: What reasons were
given, why it was best to keep still?

A: I can't tell you.

Q: Do you know what the
reasons were, or do you decline to
answer? Is it because you forget, or why can't you tell me?

A: It was because they
did­n't want it to be known - those
men who were in it; the leaders in it didn't want it to get out.

Q: I asked you whether
you ever had any conversation with
anyone in regard to it?

A: I
can't tell you
whether I had or not. Of course such a
thing as that men would talk about. That's what the matter now. It has
been
talked about and can't lie still.

Q: Did you ever have a
conversation with Haight about this
massacre since it occurred?

A: Not that I know of.

Q: Did you ever have a
conversation with Stewart?

A: No, sir.

Q: Did you ever have one
with Higbee about keeping it still?

A: Not that I know of.

Q: Did you ever talk with
Allen, Klingensmith or any other
party that was there, about keeping it still?

A: I tell you I don't
recollect having a con­versation about
keeping it still. Such a thing was talked about, but I don't now
recollect
talking about it.

Q: Did you hear either of
those men talk about it, about
keeping it secret?

A: No
answer.

Q: Is it not a fact that
after the property was all gathered
up at the Meadows, and you were ready to start for Iron Springs, that
speeches
were made to the men present, by those in authority, in which speeches
you were
ordered to keep it a secret forever?

A: There were a great
many speeches made.

Q: At the
Meadows, before you left there, was it not told
you in a speech then made to you, that it must be kept secret; that it
would be
best to keep silent? Were you not so advised by your leaders?

A: Yes, sir.

Q: Who gave that advice?
Who ordered you to keep silent?

A:
Klingensmith and Haight gave the advice....

TESTIMONY
0F JACOB HAMBLIN

Sworn for the
prosecution.

HOWARD
– Q:
Where did you live in August and September, 1867?

A:
My home was supposed to be at Clara, but I occupied the Mountain
Meadows in the
summer with my stock.

Q: What county was
Mountain Meadows in at that time?

A: It was consid­ered
in IronCounty. It was before WashingtonCounty
was organized.

Q: It is in WashingtonCounty now?

A: Yes; I believe it is.

Q: Do you remember
the time of this massacre?

A: I was not at home;
I left before it happened, and I got back seven or eight days after.

Q: How long before it
happened was it that you left home?

A: I don't know; I
met the company at Com Creek, and camped with them there.

Q: You were going north,
to the city?

A: Yes.

Q: When you returned
had the massacre taken place?

A: Yes, sir; it was
done before I got home - I heard of it before I got home.

Q: When you got home,
what did you find there on the ground?

A: Well, there were the
bodies of the company lying about
there.

Q: Were they dead or
alive?

A: I didn't see any
live ones lying there.

Q: How many dead ones
did you see?

A: I suppose over one
hundred.

Q:
Did you count the skulls there?

A:
The next spring, I took my man and we buried over one hundred and
twenty skulls
- skeletons; I don't remember exactly, something like one hundred and
twenty.
Two of us gathered up the bones.

Q: Did you count the
skulls?

A: Yes, sir; we counted
them.

Q
:Can you now remember how many there were?

A:
I think it was one hundred and twenty odd; I am satisfied it was over
that, but
I don't just remember the number.

Q: After the massacre
did you have any conversation with John D. Lee about it?

A: I don't know as I
did after I got home.

Q: Did you see him before
you got home on that trip?

A: I did. I met him
at Fillmore.

Q:
Was that after the massacre?

A:
Yes, sir; it was this side of Fillmore. I told him I heard a rumor of
it among
the Indians, and he told me about it.

Q:
State whether he had any boasts to make about it, or communications
concerning
it. If so what and how?

A:
I asked him how it came up, or some­thing of that kind. He said
that the
emigrants passed through and threat­ened to make their outfit out
of those
outlying settlements, and that he could not keep the Indians back, and
he had
to go and lead the next attack, and he got a bullet hole through his
hat and
shirt, and then after­wards got more Indians and had to decoy them
out

Q:
Tell me the whole conversation?

A:
I will if you will let me. That was the conversation. I talked about it
with
him, and he justified himself in this way: That the Indians made him go
out and
go and lead the next attack; afterwards they called on the Clara
Indians, and
that he decoyed them out, and they massacred them.

Q: Did he say where
he decoyed them out?

A: Decoyed them out
of the emigrant camp.

Q: Did he say why the
massacre took place?

A: Yes, I believe he gave
reasons for it.

Q:
What were they?

A:
Well, that the attack had been made by the Indians, and that they could
not
keep them back, and it was supposed expedient. That there was an army
right on
our border. That they would lead to giv­ing the people much bother
and trouble,
and that they would testify against them, and so on, and it was thought
best to use them up - all that could
tell tales, that is as near as I can remember.

Q: Who did he say
concluded that?

A: I don't think he
mentioned any names.

Q: Did he tell you
whether any other white men were with him or not at the time he led the
attack?

A: He said that there
was no one with him.

Q:
Did he tell you how it happened that he got down there and was there
alone?

A:
Yes; I told you. He went out to watch them and keep them from making
their
outfit from the outlying settlements, and the Indians could not be
restrained.

Q: How long did he say
that attack was made before the
massacre?

A: It ran along three or
four days, he told me.

Cross
examined -

Q. In the conversation
that you had with Lee, did he not state to you
that after the attack had been made by the Indians upon the emigrants
that word
had been sent to CedarCity for
assistance to
save the emigrants from the Indians?

A:
Yes, sir - said they sent word there.

Q:
Who did he tell you sent word to CedarCity?

A:
He did - he sent word.

Q:
What did he tell you that word was that he sent to CedarCity?

A:
He sent word that the emigrants had been attacked - that the Indians
were very
mad, and he didn't know how to keep them down.

Q: Give, as near as
you can the conversation that you had with Mr. Lee at the time you
refer to?

A: I believe I have.

Q:
Didn't he tell you that Haight or Higbee sent back word that the
emi­grants
must be destroyed, because of the fact that Stewart had killed Aiden at
the springs?
Didn't he mention something of that kind to you in that same
conversation?

A:
I don't remember as he did. He spoke of some man being shot at Little
Pinto in
the course of the evening. It was after the Indians had attacked, if I
remember
right, that some men left the camp and undertook to go to Cedar City,
and were
killed on the way - one or two I think, and one or two came back.

Q:
Go on and tell all that he told you about it, about the killing of that
man at
Pinto - how it was done, and all about it.

A:
I don't know that I can. I remember that he said that there was one
killed
there that went out to see if they could get help from CedarCity.
Two or three went, and one was killed and one or two came back in the
night. I
don't know but that they got back to camp.

Q:
Did he tell you what word was sent back to him from CedarCity
after that time?

A:
Yes; he told me something about the message that came there.

Q:
Tell me what was said about it?

A:
One message came to not disturb the emigrants, and after the message
went that
they had been attacked, I think he said that there was one that they be
all
killed or used up.

Q:
Go on and tell what he said was in that last message - he was
explain­ing it to
you

A:
I am satisfied the message was - it commenced that they should be used
up, or
something like that.

Q: Did he tell you
who that message was from?

A: I don't think he
did.

Q: Did he tell you
where it was from, whether from CedarCity
or else­where

A: No, he used the
language that he got word.

Redirect.

Q: Do you believe what he
said, that he got a message to use
up those emigrants, from any authority?

A: I don't know that I do.

Q: Don't you know
that he lied about it?

A: No answer.

Q: Don't you think he
did?

A: No answer.

Q: He was telling you
this in justification after the
massacre?

A: Yes, he told me that.
I asked what called for such an
act, and he told what the reason was.

Q: He gave you that reply
in his justification?

A: He said he got word to
use them up, that this army was on
the borders.

Q: He got word that being
commenced, that on account of the
army being on the borders, that he had better finish it?

A: Yes.

Q: Did you understand
that that came from Higbee or Haight - that word?

A: I don't think he said.

Q:
Do you know the relations existing between Higbee, Haight and Lee, so
as to
know from whom it came?

A:
I would expect it would come from Isaac C. Haight, if any word was sent
from CedarCity;
if it was north, it would be from Parowan, but I don't think he told me
where
it was from.

Q:
Klingensmith was in a position, I suppose, to send such word, if any
was sent?

A:
Klingensmith was presiding Bishop. If it was orders in a mil­itary
capacity it
would be somebody else

Q: If it was in a
military capacity, who would it have been
from?

A: The way I understand
it, it would be Dame.

Q:
If he told the truth and authority came to him from a superior
mili­tary
officer - and if it came from an ecclesiastical, who would it have been
from

A:
It would have been from Klingensmith.

Jacob Hamblin Re-called.

HOWARD – I am not in the
habit, your Honor, of recalling a witness
this way, but I was not fully posted in regard to all the facts that
Mr.
Hamblin would testify to. I have found he knows some additional facts,
and I
will ask leave to examine him further.

Q: How far above this
place, Beaver, was it that you had a conversation with John D. Lee?

A: It was about some
springs, this side of Fillmore, probably seven or eight miles.

Q: How far is Fillmore
from here?

A: About sixty miles.

Q: How far is Cedar City
from here?

A: Supposed to be
fifty-five miles - fifty-three to
fifty-five miles.

Q: Is there any other
place called Cedar City, except Cedar
City?

A: No, sir, I don't know
any. It is called Cedar or Cedar
City.

Q: How far is it from
Cedar City to Parowan?

A: Eighteen miles, I used
to suppose it was. I have heard it
called that.

Q: How far is it from
Parowan to Harmony?

A: About thirty-five
miles, it is supposed to be.

Q: Is Harmony on the
road, or is it off of the road from
Cedar City to the Meadows?

A: It is twelve miles
south of the road.

Q: Where do you leave
the road going from Parowan to the Meadows, to go to Harmony?

A: We leave it two
and a half miles below Cedar City.

Q: Then it is off to the
left as you are going?

A: Yes, sir.

Q: Where Is Pinto?

A: It would be within
seven miles of the north end of the
Meadows, where my ranch was.

Q: What was the
condition of the Meadows at that time, with regard to being a good
stopping
place for travelers?

A: At that time it
had a very lux­uriant growth of grass all over the valley, and
springs at each
end. It was considered a good stopping place for companies, and was
occupied by
myself and two or three others at the north end. We had then formed a
settlement called the Clara.

Q: In this
conversation that you had with Mr. Lee, did he say anything to you
about the
manner in which, or by whom, the men had been drawn into that massacre?
If he
did, will you state all he said, in your own way?

A: It was a long
while ago, but I recollect him telling we that there were white men
there, and
that they didn't know what they were going for until they got there,
and some
would not act and some would.

Q: What do you know
about the disposition of the property of those emi­grants

A: There was none on
the Meadows when I got there, that I saw. I saw two or three young men
driving
two or three hundred head of cat­tle, going to the Iron Springs.
Afterwards I
saw them on the Harmony range - that drove of Texas cattle.

Q: Whose range was the
Harmony range?

A: It belonged to the
Harmony settlement - the citizens of
Harmony.

Q: Do you know of Mr. Lee
using any of those cattle,
butchering or using any of them?

A: He had charge of them.

BISHOP –

Q: To save time and
trouble, we will admit the corpus delicti.

Of course it is
understood that counsel cannot admit anything against his client in a
criminal
case. But there will be no question raised about it. It is an
undisputed fact
that something like one hundred and twenty people were killed about
that time
and at that place. And that the num­ber of people charged in the
indictment
were killed there will be no question. That they were killed at that
place
there will be no question. We will never argue before any court that
there has
not been a killing as charged in the indictment, except that we will
always
argue that the defendant did not do it.

Q: Calling your
attention back to that conversation, I will ask you to tell the court
and jury,
in your own way, what Mr. Lee told you in regard to his personal
participation
in that killing, if he told you anything?

A: Well, I believe I
told it here yesterday - that he spoke of white men being engaged in
it, and
that he made an attack at daylight; that he could not keep the Indians
back.
They were so mad because one of their men got killed, and another
wounded, that
he led the attack and got a bullet through his hat and another through
his
shirt. The talk was something like this: They went out there to watch
the
emigrants and see that they should not get their outfit from the
outlying
settlements; that the Indians made the attack at daylight, and one of
them got
killed and another wounded, and that raised their temper to such a
pitch that
they went for him and compelled him to lead the attack, which he did
once or
twice ­once anyway - and got the bullet through his hat and one
through his
shirt. The, emigrants were so strongly entrenched they could do nothing
with
them. And afterwards they were under the necessity of decoying them out
with a
flag of trace. And they came along in the Meadows to where the Indians
were
lying in ambush, and they rose up and massa­cred them. The
emigrants were
unarmed.

Q: Tell what else he told
you?

A: Well, he spoke of many
little incidents.

Q: Mention any of those
incidents?

A: There were two young
ladies brought out.

Q: Whom by?

A: By an Indian Chief
at Cedar City, and he asked him what he should do with them, and the
Indian
killed one and he killed the other.

Q: Tell the story as he
told you.

A: That is about it.

Q: Where were those
young girls brought from - did he say?

A: From a thicket of
oak brush, where they were concealed. It was an Indian Chief from Cedar
City.

Q: Tell just what he said
about that.

A: The Indian killed one
and he cut the other one's throat,
is what he said.

Q: Who cut the other's
throat?

A: Mr. Lee.

Q: Tell me what Mr.
Lee said; state the circumstances of that killing, what conversation
passed between
that Indian Chief and Lee, and the conversation between the woman and
himself?

A: I don't know that
I could.

Q: Tell all you can
remember about it; you say the Chief
brought him the girls. I think I have told it about all.

Go
over it again; tell
us all the details of the conversation of the killing.

A: Well, he said they
were all killed - all, as he supposed; that the Chief of Cedar City
then
brought out the young ladies.

Q: What did he say the
Chief said to him?

A: Asked what he should
do with them.

Q: What else did the
Chief say?

A: He said they didn't
ought to be killed.

Q: Did the Chief say to
Lee why they should not be killed?

A: Well, he said they
were pretty and he wanted to save
them.

Q: What did he tell you
that he said to the Chief?

A: According to the
orders that he had that they were too
old and too big to let live.

Q: Then what did he say
took place - what did he say he told
the Chief to do?

A: The Chief shot one of
them.

Q: Did he say he told the
Chief to shoot her?

A: He said he told him to.

Q: What did he say the
girl did when he told the Chief to
shoot her?

A: I don't know.

Q: Did she cover her face?

A: No; he didn't say she
covered her face.

Q: Did he say she pulled
her bonnet down over her face?

A: He didn't tell me so.

Q: Who did he say were by
when that shooting took place?

A: Indians standing round
- a good many.

Q: After the Chief shot
that one did he tell you what the
other one said or did to him, Lee?

A: I don't think Mr. Lee
did tell me.

Q: Did he tell you
himself who killed the other one?

A: I told you that he
said it was a Cedar City Chief that
killed one.

Q: Who killed the
other?

A: He did it, he
said.

Q: How?

A: He threw her down
and cut her throat.

Q: Did he tell you
what she said to him?

A: No.

Q: Who did tell you that?

A: The Indians told me a
good many things.

Q: Didn't Mr. Lee tell
you that she told him to spare her
life, and she would love him as long as she lived?

A: Lee didn't tell me
that.

Q: Did you ascertain
in that conversation, or subsequently, where it was that they were
killed?

A: When I got home I
asked my Indian boy, and he went out to where this took place, and he
saw two
young ladies lying there with their throats cut.

Q: How old was he?

A: Sixteen or seventeen.
Q: What was the condition of those bodies?

A: They
were rather in a putrid state; their throats were
cut; I didn't look further than that.

Q: What were their
ages?

A:
Looked about
fourteen or fifteen.

Q: At what point were
their bodies from the others?

A: Southeast
direction, towards some thickets of oak.

Q: How far off?

A: About fifty yards.

Q: Were those bodies up a
little ravine, a little way?

A: Yes, on a rise of
ground.

Q: What were their ages,
about?

A: Thirteen to fifteen, I
would suppose.

Q: Did you learn from the
children, or from any other
source, their names?

A: Well, I suppose I did.

Q: What name?

A: There was a little
girl at my house, I found with my fam­ily that was in that company;
she said
their names were Dunlap; she claimed to be their sister.

Q: How old was she?

A: Eight years old, she
said.

Q: Did you go up
there and find those bodies yourself, with the assis­tance of the
Indian boy?

A: I walked over the
ground, looked at it all pret­ty much and saw these two bodies.

Q: He told you where
those two bodies were to be found, did he?

A: Yes, sir. The
others had been buried slightly, but those two hadn't been; there was
quite a
number scattering around there.

Q: What became of the
children of those emigrants? How many children were brought there?

A: Two to my house,
and several in Cedar City. I was acting subagent for Forney. I gathered
the
children up for him; seven­teen in number, all I could learn of.

Q: Whom did you deliver
them to?

A: Forney, Superintendent
of Indian Affairs for Utah.

Q: Were there any of the
wagons or other property burned
there on the ground?

A: I never saw any sign
of burning, and never heard of any
being burned.

Cross examined –

BISHOP:

Q: What day in September
was it that you had this
conversation with John D. Lee, about seven or eight miles this side of
Fillmore?

A: I don't recollect the
date, I left the city about the
14th, and came directly there.

Q: Who was present at
that conversation?

A: A man by the name of
Bishop.

Q: That was not me?

A: No; that man had two
good eyes, and you have but one.

Q: What Bishop was that,
was he a Mormon Bishop?

A: No, he was not a
Mormon Bishop; he was a merchant. He had
been hauling goods from California, and dealing here some in these
settlements.

Q: Can you give me his
other name?

A: No, sir; I never heard
it.

Q: Was it Jesse Bishop?

A: I don't know his other
name.

Q: Lee told you and
this man Bishop all about it - got you two together and told you?

A: I don't think
Bishop heard the conversation, or much of it.

Q: Did Bishop hear any of
it?

A: I don't know that he
did, or that he didn't.

Q: Then why did you say
that he told you and this man
Bishop?

A: I said he was there.

Q: You heard the
conversation?

A: Yes, I heard it;
but I don't know as any other man heard it.

Q: There was a man
present by the name of Bishop?

A: He was in the same
camp.

Q: Where were you at
the time this conversation took place?

A: I was five or six
miles this side of Fillmore, at the Springs.

Q: What time of day was
it?

A: It was afternoon
sometime.

Q: Which way was John D.
Lee traveling at the time you saw
him?

A: Going north, to the
city.

Q: You were going South?

A: Yes, sir.

Q:
Tell me what he said about the orders that he had. You have said that
he told
the Chief to kill the little girl, and that he killed the other,
because his
orders were that they were all to be used up.

A:
He said he had orders to use up all that company that could tell tales.

Q: Where did he get
these orders from? Did he tell you that?

A: I told you no,
that I don't remember that he did.

Q: Do you recollect that
he didn't?

A: If he did I don't
recollect it.

Q:
I want to get as full a statement of facts as possible. I want you to
tell me
everything that you think he said, or, that he did say. When did he
tell you
that he got those orders from Cedar City?

A:
It was my impression that he got them from Cedar City, but I could not
say what
the man said about it, but I had that idea.

Q:
Who else did he tell you was on the ground siding in this killing?

A:
The names I don't know as he mentioned. I think he mentioned Bishop
Klingensmith being there.

Q: Who else?

A: He mentioned Higbee
being there.

Q:
Who else did he mention?

A:
He mentioned my brother being there, bringing some Indians there. He
sent him
word to bring the Indians up there. Sent him word of this affair taking
place,
and for him to go and get the Indians, and bring up the Clara Indians.

Q: Your brother,
then, brought the Indians to the Meadows, and then left there?

A: Yes, he told me
so.

Q: Now, how was it about
the Indians making an attack about
daylight? Were they repulsed?

A: Yes.

Q: One killed and another
wounded?

A: Yes,
sir.

Q: That enraged the
Indians, and so Lee led the next attack?

A: Yes, sir.

Q: Who do you mean were
so enraged - the Indians?

A: Yes, the
Indians. He claimed the idea that he had to do
it to save his own life. They were very mad, and wanted him to help use
up that
company.

Q: Did he not tell
you in that same conversation that he tried to appease the Indians and
keep
them from attacking the train?

A: I don't remember
just the words, but he said he could not keep them from attacking them
just at
daylight.

Q: Didn't he tell you
that he tried to keep them off?

A: I don't think so. I
think he said he could not keep them
off.

Q: Did he say
anything about the Indians calling him any names because he would not
go?

A: He went off
towards the Clara and cried, and they called him crier - yah gauts.

Q: Why did they call him
this?

A: Because he cried.

Q: That was before he led
the attack?

A: I don't know.

Q: Are you positive that
he told you that he cut that woman's
throat?

A: Yes, I am positive of
that, or I would not have told it.

Q: How long is it since
you have told anybody that John D.
Lee had told you that?

A: It has been about
three seconds.

Q: Where have you
lived since the Mountain Meadows Massacre?

A: My family has been
at the Clara the most of the time; the last six years have been at
Kanab.

Q: You have lived in Utah
all that time?

A: My home has been in
Utah.

Q: That has been your
home?

A: My home has been in
Utah.

Q: Didn't Lee tell
you more than you have told? Didn't he tell you about a Council that
was held
on the field before the massacre?

A: He told me. We had
a good deal of conversation about it.

Q: Tell me if he did
not inform you that a Council was held on the field, on Mountain
Meadows, by
the people from Cedar City, before the mas­sacre, and that he
opposed the
killing of the emigrants until he found that he could do no good?

A: After we had
talked some time I asked the necessity of such a thing, or why it was,
and he
told me that he had orders to do so.

Q: Did he not tell
you that there was a Council held there at the Meadows, and that it was
then
decided that they should be killed?

A: No, I never heard
that there was a Council held there to make any decision, or to decide
anything
but the subject or counseling how to decoy them out.

Q: Who counseled with
them?

A: There was
Klingensmith, the Bishop of Cedar City.

Q: Who else counseled
with him?

A: I think he said
John M. Higbee. I am satisfied it was.

Q: Did he tell you
how long before the massacre it was that they talked this over?

A: I don't think that
he did.

Q:
You were a subagent and Indian interpreter at that time, were you not?

A:
Right away after that Forney appointed me as subagent. At that time I
was no
agent, nor in any particular office, unless a missionary in the south
country
to establish some settlements on the Clara.

Q:
What reason did Lee give you in that conversation for the killing of
the
emigrants? He must have given you some reason why it was neces­sary
to commit
such a deed?

A:
I asked what called for it, why they did it. He said that attack at
daylight
would have thrown censure upon this people.

Q: On what people?

A: The people that were
living here.

Q: Do you mean the whites
that were living here at the time?

A: Yes, sir.

Q: Go on and tell all he
said. I want you to make it as bad
as you can tell all that you said, all that he said?

A: I would not undertake
that.

Q:
Tell all that you can recollect? I have, the substance of it? There
must have
been a good deal said about the reasons for doing this thing?

A:
The cause that he always gave to me was that which I told you. That
after they
came through there and behaved very rough, and said that they helped
kill old
Joe Smith, and were going to be ready there at the Meadows when their
teams got
recruited, and when Johnston com­menced on the north end, they
would on the
south end, and he was asked by authority - Haight or Dame - to go and
watch
those emigrants and see that they didn't molest those weak settlements.
When I
asked him what it was for - that in doing so, when they got there the
Indians
made this attack at daylight.

Q: The Indians then
made the first attack?

A: He said they made
it volun­tarily - they made the first attack.

Q: You spoke of General
Johnston's army marching towards
Utah. Where was it?

A: At Fort Bridger then.

Q:
Who was it understood that Johnston was understood to be marching
against them?

A:
The understanding and feeling was that he was marching against the
Mormons as a
people, Church or nation, and was going to try to burst up the whole
concern.
That was what we expected.

Q: You expected,
then, that Johnston with the army of the United States, was leading
that army
against this people?

A: Yes, sir.

Q: With the intention of
exterminating them or compelling
them to abandon their religion?

A: Yes, sir, that was my
belief - to do away with the Mormon
religion.

Q:
How long before that had it been that this same feeling of fear or
anx­iety had
been felt by this people, occasioned by Johnston's approach?

A:
I think it had been two or three months, it had come south at the time.
I think
it was the 24th of July when a celebration was held in one of the
canyons, that
word came that Johnston was on his way.

Q:
After that 24th of July, did that report have any effect on this people
to
cause them to organize as a military people?

A:
No, that was organized before that, as far as I knew and was acquainted
with
the counsel.

Q:
From that time on up to the time of the Mountain Meadows Massacre, tell
me if
the people were organized as a militia, and enrolled as such?

A:
The instructions we had from George A. Smith, who was sent as
representing
President Young's mind, was to save everything like breadstuff, and use
it when
we wanted it.

Q:
Did the people ever meet and drill, have exercises and musters, so as
to make
them understand the use of arms, and make them familiar with military
tactics?

A:
Yes, sir, there used to be drills, sometimes, those days.

Q:
Was it not a general occurrence for them to meet and drill?

A:
Yes, they drilled at Fillmore and Cedar - I don't know about Harmony -
using as
much effort as possible to perfect themselves in military tactics. They
were
always doing that; they did that in Illinois.

Q: Did
you not understand that all the men between eighteen
and sixty years of age were enrolled in the militia?

A: Yes, I understood it
so.

Q: Who was the highest
military officer in this division?

A: William H. Dame was
first in command in the southern
country. He was Colonel of the Iron Militia, as I understood it. I was
out a
good deal.

Q:
Who was the highest military officer at Cedar City?

A:
Well, that I could not testify to, but I think it was Isaac C. Haight,
but I
would not testify to it, because I don't know.

Q:
State if you know whether John M. Higbee belonged to the militia or
not?

A:
Well, he belonged to the militia, but whether as private or officer, I
don't
know.

Q:
How many men did John D. Lee tell you had gone from Cedar City to the
Mountain
Meadows, and that were present at the time of the Massacre?

A:
Well, if he told me I have forgotten.

Q:
Did you ever have a conversation with him, or with any other person, as
to how
many or about how many were there?

A:
No, I don't know that I had. I heard there was something like fifty in
all from
Cedar City and from below there, but that is nothing but an idea - not
founded
on fact ­as reports.

Q: You spoke about
Lee telling you that there was a necessity for killing those young
girls,
because they were older than those that his orders permitted him to
save. State
now, if he did not tell you in that conversa­tion some reason for
the killing
of the grown people.

A: The reason was
what I told you.

Q: Did he not say
that if they were permitted to go they would tell the tale in
California, about
what had been done there by the Mormons?

A: His talk was and
his excuses were that it would be a bad thing for the peo­ple here
in Utah, if
it was known, and got out in such a troublous time. It would bring much
trouble
on the Mormons as a people.

Q: Was not that
trouble to come from their notifying the people of California of what
had been
done?

A: Well, yes. When I
interrogated him about that he said - I think he said - it would have a
tendency to bring trouble from California.

Q: Did he not tell
you that that was the understanding of the people, that if they were
permitted
to go, that it would call an army from the south, and that was the
reason these
instructions were sent as they were?

A: He didn't say
anything about the people.

Q: Did he not tell you
why the instructions came to him as
they did?

A: He did not tell who it
came from, he said he did it by
authority.

Q: Did he not tell
you that he did it by authority and the reason that authority gave was
that
these parties, if permitted to go, would raise a war cloud in
California?

A: I
don't know as he
did. He said it would lead to bringing an army down upon liS;
that is what he told me.

Q: Did he tell you
anything further?

A: I think I have told
you all that was important that John
D. Lee said.

Q: Did not John D.
Lee tell you in that same conversation, that after the Indians made the
attack
the first time, that one or more men started from the emigrant camp for
Cedar
City, and met some men going to the emi­grant camp from Cedar City;
that they
met at the springs, and that then Young Aiden was killed by William C.
Stewart?

A: He gave me an
account of it.

Q: Tell me what he said
about it?

A: I can't do that.

Q: Then give the
substance of it.

A: It would be from
memory, and there might be an error in it. He told me - he spoke of
three men
starting back to go to Cedar City to get assistance and to give
information of
what was going on after the first Indian attack. During that time there
were
three men went out in the night, and one was killed at Little Pinto,
four miles
this side of the Meadows. I don't know who he said killed them. I don't
know as
he said that he knew. I think one was killed there, and the other got
back to
their camp. They wounded one in the night, and the thought was this
would lead
to trouble if they were permitted to go, on account of this man being
wounded
and telling how it was done, and what had happened in the past, was
about his
language; what had happened would lead to bringing trouble, perhaps an
army on
the southern people, and especially that action at the springs, in the
killing
that man.

Q: Did Lee tell you who
was at the springs at that time?

A: No, if he did, I don't
remember.

Q: Did he say this to you
- that it was understood by the
authorities that one man was wounded at the springs, and one man killed
by
Stewart, and if those people were permitted to go to California they
would noti­fy
the people of California that the whites had made an attack in
con­junction
with the -- Indians; that they would lead an army from the south and
west, and
that for safety they considered it necessary as a war measure to kill
those
people?

A: I think he told you
that, Mr. Bishop. I told you that
when I asked him, he told me that that would lead to bringing an army
here. I
am satisfied that is what he said. But as to the particu­lars of
the killing at
Little Pinto I could not say, only that a man was killed there and one
wounded,
and they had got back; that the attack at daylight was the cause of the
emigrants being killed.

Q: Mr. Hamblin, have
you now detailed to the jury all of the conversa­tion that you had
with John D.
Lee, at the time that you met him seven or eight miles this side of
Fillmore?

A: I think I have,
that I recollect dis­tinctly enough to mention here. I may think of
something
else.

Q: You say you saw
some of the cattle on the Harmony range. How many people used that
range for
their cattle?

A: I think something
like twenty families.

Q: Do you know who took
charge of the stock immediately
after the massacre?

A: I met two young men
driving it - between two and three
hundred head.

Q: Who were they?

A: They lived at Cedar
City. I did not know them. They said
they were going to drive them to the Iron Springs, and then
after­wards I
learned that John D. Lee took them.

Q: Who were those
young men?

A: I do not know. I
was not acquainted with them. I was not much acquainted at Cedar City.
They
lived there, they said.

Q: How far did you live
from Cedar City at that time?

A: My family was then
twenty-eight miles from Cedar City, at
the Meadows.

Q: Did you spend any time
at Cedar City soon afterwards?

A: When I came through I
stopped about ten minutes. I was on
an express.

Q:
Where were you carrying the express?

A:
I was going to overtake anoth­er company. Colonel Dame was afraid
they would
jump into them, and wanted me to go and see to it.

Q: Afraid who would
jump into them?

A: The Indians.

Q: Where did you get
that express?

A: From him.

Q: Where at?

A: At Wild Cat
Canyon, eight or ten miles north of here.

Q: That was when you
were coming from Salt Lake?

A: That was.

Q: After you had left
John D. Lee?

A: Yes, sir.

Q: Who were you carrying
that express to?

A: To the Indians - if
there were any. He said he had
learned they were following up this company.

Q:
What company?

A:
The company that was following up the company that was massacred. They
were
stopped here a while, and the Indians wounded one, or killed one, or
something.

Q:
Have you ever given this conversation that you had with Lee, to any
one, to the
public generally? I do not ask if you have stated it to the counsel in
the
case, but to others?

A:
I have no recollection of it.

Q: Have you ever given it
to any court or jury, or given a
statement of it?

A: No, sir, not at all -
not until now.

Q:
Have you ever given a report of it to any of your superiors in the
Church, or
officers over you?

A: Well,
I did speak of it to President
Young and George A. Smith.

Q: Did you give them the
whole facts?

A: I gave them some more
than I have here, because I
recollected more of it.

Q: When did you do that?

A: Pretty soon after it
happened.

Q: You are certain you
told it fuller than you have told it
here on the stand?

A: I told
them
everything I could.

Q: Who else did you tell
it to?

A: I have no recollection
of telling it to any one else.

Q: Why have you not
told it before this time?

A: Because I did not
feel like it.

Q:
Why did you not feel like it? You felt and knew that a great crime had
been
committed, did you not?

A:
I felt that a great crime had been com­mitted. But
Brigham Young told me that "as soon as we can get a court of
justice, we will ferret this thing out, but till then don't say
anything
about it."

Q: There have been courts
of justice in this territory ever
since that time?

A: I have never seen the
effects of it yet. I have seen it
tried.

Q:
Then this to the first time you have ever felt at liberty to tell it?

A:
It is the first time I ever felt that any good would come of it. I kept
it to
myself until it was called for in the proper place.

Q: You feel now that the
proper time has come?

A: I do indeed.

Q:
I presume you have talked it over with friends, and they advised you
that this
would be a good time and place to tell it?

A:
I had an idea that if I came here that it would be a pretty good place
to tell
it.

Q: And in pursuance of
that idea you are going on to tell
it?

A: Yes, sir.

Q: Are you certain that
you have told all that you know
about it?

A: I am certain that I
know all I tell.

Q: Answer the other part?

A: I think I have, all
that is important.

Q: Have
you told it
all?

A: No,
sir, I have not.

Q: Then tell it?

A: I
will not undertake that now. I would not like to under­take
it.

Redirect –

HOWARD:

Q: How long have you
known John D. Lee?

A: Between thirty and
forty years.

Q:
How long is it since Mr. Lee ceased to be so ardent in his feelings and
religious zeal that he was willing to run the risk he did down there at
the
Mountain Meadows, to defend his religion?

A:
What I knew of him, he was always pretty zealous in what is called
Mormonism -
he was at that time.

Q: How is it now?

BISHOP –

Q: We object to the
question; it is not expected that a man shall be called a criminal for
giving
up his belief in such a Church. It is wholly foreign to the question at
issue.

Objection
sustained.

Affidavit of Phillip Klingon Smith (or Klingensmith)

STATE
OF NEVADA, COUNTY OF LINCOLN,
ss:-

Personally
appeared
before me, Peter B. Miller, Clerk of Court of the Seventh Judicial
District of
the State of Nevada, Philip Klingon Smith, who being duly sworn, on his
oath,
says: My name is Philip Klingon Smith; I reside in the county of
Lincoln, in
the State of Nevada; I resided at Cedar City, in the County of Iron, in
the
Territory of Utah, from A.D. 1852 to A.D. 1859; I was residing at said Cedar City
at the time of the massacre at Moun­tain Meadows, in said Territory
of Utah; I
had heard that a com­pany of emigrants was on its way from Salt
Lake City,
bound for California; after said company had left Cedar City, the
militia was
called out for the purpose of committing acts of hostility against
them; said
call was a regular military call from the superior officers to the
subordinate
officers and privates of the regiment at Cedar City and vicinity,
composing a
part of the militia of the Territory of Utah; I do not recollect the
number of
the regiment. I was at that time the Bishop of the Church of Jesus
Christ of
Latter-day Saints at Cedar City; Isaac C. Haight was President over
said church
at Cedar City and the southern settlements in said Territory; my
position as
Bishop was subordinate to that of said President; W. H. Dame was the
President
of said Church at Parowan in said Iron County; said W. H. Dame was also
colonel
of said regiment; said Isaac C. Haight was lieutenant-colonel of said
regiment,
and said John D. Lee, of Harmony in said Iron County, was major of said
regiment; said regiment was duly or­dered to muster, armed and
equipped as the
law directs, and pre­pared for field operations; I had no command
nor office in
said regiment at the time, neither did I march with said regiment on
the
expedition which resulted in said company's being massacred in the
Mountain
Meadows, in said County of Iron; about four days after said company of
emigrants had left Cedar City, that portion of said regiment then
mustered at
Cedar City took up its line of march in pursuit of them; about two days
after
said com­pany had left said Cedar City, Lieutenant-Colonel I. C.
Haight
expressed in my presence, a desire that said company might be permitted
to pass
on their way in peace; but afterward he told me that he had orders from
headquarters
to kill all of said company of emigrants except the little children; I
do not
know whether said headquarters meant the Regimental Headquarters at
Paro­wan,
or the Headquarters of the Commander-in-chief at Salt Lake City; when
the said
company had got to Iron Creek about twenty (20) miles from Cedar City,
Captain
Joel White started for Pinto Creek settlement, through which said
company would
pass, for the purpose of influencing the people to permit said
com­pany to pass
on their way in peace; I asked and obtained permis­sion of said
White to go
with him and aid him in his endeavors to save life; when said White and
myself
got about three miles from Cedar City we met Major John D. Lee, who
asked us
where we were going; I replied that we were going to try to prevent'
the
killing of the emigrants, Lee replied, 'I have something to say about
that;'
Lee was at that time on his way to Parowan, the Head_ quarters of
Colonel Dame;
said White and I went to Pinto Creek; remained there one night, and the
next
day returned to Cedar City, meeting said company of emigrants at Iron
Creek;
before reaching Cedar City we met one Ira Allen, who told us 'that the.
decree
had passed, devoting said company to destruction;' after the fight had
been
going on for three or four days, a messenger from Major Lee reached
Cedar City,
who stated that the fight had not been altogether successful, upon
which
Lieutenant-Colonel Haight ordered out a reinforcement; at this time I
was or­dered
out by Captain John M. Higbee, who ordered me to muster, 'armed and
equipped as
the law directs;' it was a matter of life or death to me to muster or
not, and
I mustered with the reinforcing troops; it was at this time that
Lieutenant-Colonel Haight said to me that it was the orders from
headquarters
that all but the little children of said company were to be killed;
said Haight
had at that time just returned from headquarters at Parowan, where a
military
council had been held; there had been a like council held at Parowan
previous
to that, at which were present Colonel Dame, Lieutenant-Colonel 1. C.
Haight,
and Major John D. Lee; the result of this first council was the calling
out of
said regiment for the purpose already stated; the reinforcement
aforesaid was
marched to the Mountain Meadows, and there formed a junction with the
main
body; Major Lee massed all the troops at a spring, and made a speech to
them,
saying that his orders from headquar­ters were to kill the entire
company
except the small children; I was not in the ranks at that time, but on
the side
talking to a man named Slade, and could not have seen a paper in Major
Lee's
hands; said Lee then sent a flag of truce into the emigrant camp,
offering said
emigrants that 'if they lay down their arms, he would protect them';
they
accordingly laid down their arms, came out from their camp, and
delivered
themselves to said Lee; the women and children were then, by the order
of said
Lee, separated from the men, and were marched ahead of the men; after
said
emigrants had marched about a half mile toward Cedar City, the order
was given
to shoot them down; at that time said Lee was at the head of the
column; I was
in the rear. I did not hear Lee give the order to fire, but heard it
from the
under officers as it was passed down the column; the emigrants were
then and
there shot down ex­cept seventeen little children, which I
immediately took
into my charge; I do not know that total number of said company as I
did not
stop to count the dead; I immediately put the little children in
baggage-wagons
belonging to the regiment, and took them to Hamlin's ranch, and from
there to
Cedar City, and procured them homes among the people; John Willis and
Samuel
Murdy assisted me in taking charge of said children; on the evening of
the
massacre, Colonel W. H. Dame and Lieutenant 1. C. Haight came to
Hamblin's,
where I had said children, and fell into a dis­pute, in the course
of which
said Haight told Colonel Dame, that, if he was going to report of the
killing
of said emigrants, he should not have ordered it done; I do not know
when or
where said troops were disbanded; about two weeks after said massacre
oc­curred,
said Major Lee (who was also an Indian Agent), went to Salt Lake City.
and, as
I believe, reported said fight and its results to the
commander-in-chief; I was
not present at either of the before-mentioned councils, nor at any
council
connected with the aforesaid military operations, or with said company;
I gave
no orders except those connected with the saving of the children, and
those,
after the massacre had occurred, and said orders were given as bishop
and not
in a military sense; at the time of the firing of the first volley I
discharged
my piece; I did not fire afterward, though several subsequent volleys
were
fired; after the first fire we delivered I at once set about saving the
children; I commenced to gather the children before the firing had
ceased. I
have made the foregoing statement before the above-entitled court for
the
reason that I believe that I would be assassinated should I attempt to
make the
same before any court in the Territory of Utah.
After said Lee
returned from Salt Lake City,
as aforesaid, said Lee told me that he had reported fully to the
President,
meaning the Commander-in-chief, the fight at Mountain Meadows, and the
killing
of said emigrants. Brigham Young was at that time the
Commander-in-chief of the
militia of the Territory
of Utah; and
further
deponent saith not.