Joe Allen

Joe Allen

Re: Joe ALLEN

Hasn't done anything to warrant those values. Current SPA is more than enough for what hes been showing, what he needs is an sps increase.

Re: Joe ALLEN

Posted: 2012 Sep 07, 02:22

by Basilio

yeah i agree, he is correctly rated. He is terrific, and this set figurates himself, though maybe he looks underrated in comparision to those overrated ? or underrated for Psd old/actual standards ? surely there can be punctual aspects where he can go with review, as every set in PSD does, but do not rush nor exagerate, he is one of the well rated. Higher Sps is spot on

Re: Joe ALLEN

Posted: 2012 Sep 07, 12:20

by tasmin

TW could be a bit better though .

Re: Joe ALLEN

Posted: 2012 Sep 07, 16:58

by čale

it has nothing to do with experience. shelvey tries more difficult passes and more often succeeds in them, while allen plays a much safer game than shelvey and his through ball are a rarity and the success rate of them is fairly poor as well.

Re: Joe ALLEN

Posted: 2012 Sep 07, 17:50

by Shine691

Sure, but he plays those passes cause that's his role in the team and his playing style. I would suggest a raise in TW and maybe SPS as you mentioned. He is always available and moves into position for receiving a pass as soon as he's delivered. It's a highly intelligent way of play, with a team-mentality and great positioning. Joe Allen is always available.

TW 86

Re: Joe ALLEN

Posted: 2012 Sep 07, 18:04

by čale

Shine691 wrote:Sure, but he plays those passes cause that's his role in the team and his playing style.

and you just answered your own question. that's his role and style, i.e. Martin Caceres a CB/RB last season (mostly played as CB) had an average pass completion ratio of 93% but yet he's still rated quite poorly in his passing stats as his offensive contribution is close to none with those passes and most of them are along the back four or even back to the goalie or a layoff for the midfielders. And that's what i tried to explain in the comparison between Shelvey and Allen, Shelvey plays a much more difficult game compared to Allen.

Re: Joe ALLEN

Posted: 2012 Sep 07, 18:08

by the sloth

xxx

Re: Joe ALLEN

Posted: 2012 Sep 07, 18:17

by Korinov

And we also have the issue that the *Passing card will probably be gone in a few weeks from this site.

Re: Joe ALLEN

Posted: 2012 Sep 07, 18:30

by jurgens

the sloth wrote:I haven't seen Liverpool this season so won't comment on Allen's ability but (correct me if I'm wrong) there seems to be a lack of consistency in how people are rating passers.

Some people have decided that a person who plays "difficult passes" should get a higher ATK rating while others are saying that it should be higher SPA not even counting the Passer card which makes you play through balls i.e dangerous passes. I have always been a bit dubious about the way of PSD determining these things.

It's not really that they get higher attack from the passes, though that is an attribute. It's more so their over-all ability as a playmaker, their ability to recognize chances and play the right pass at the right time. We've gone over literally dozens and dozens of players in the Konami DB over multiple generations and they follow the same pattern in attack. All playmakers rated very highly in attack, some of the most adventurous passers rated the highest in attack, and the deep lying playmakers like Pirlo/Guardiola rated as some of the highest, despite the fact their contribution to the attack is limited to mostly within their designated area. Theres an unmistakeable pattern in konamis ratings, all we can do is try to figure out the logic in it and follow suit with our ratings.

And difficult passes. Well this doesn't really need to be debated imo, it's in game effect is pretty clear. When you have higher SPA, your ability to play difficult passes increase dramatically. For example, I was using Ganso in my ML as my AMF with 90 SPA, and playing a lot of deep through balls, but his accuracy was pretty often lacking on the very difficult balls. But then I got Riquelme, and the accuracy on these difficult passes saw a dramatic increase, not only that but the "options" for passing opened up considerably too, your just able to play much better passes the higher you go in spa, passes that are much harder to execute hence, difficult passes. The type of passes a player is capable of playing determines his SPA imo. I mean how else can we rate it? If you don't show anything other than 5 yard passes, your not playing anything that shows your accuracy really.

Re: Joe ALLEN

Posted: 2012 Sep 07, 18:49

by the sloth

xxx

Re: Joe ALLEN

Posted: 2012 Sep 07, 18:52

by vinnie

you know... that's part of what my thinking was with my (eh.. controversial? ) busquets alt set. Why i gave him such low attack, along with aggresion with high teamwork, it was how they all work consumately, in game... i really liked how it played, especially with ai.

Re: Joe ALLEN

Posted: 2012 Sep 07, 18:59

by jurgens

the sloth wrote:jurgens,

I do agree with you about high SPA in the hands of a human and I stated very similar things in the Pedro thread related to my testing. The issue that I have is mostly to do with the AI. I don't find that high SPA (85 and up) makes the AI play any more difficult passes than a lower (85 and below) SPA. Sure, you can do more with it as a human but it doesn't make the game play any more realistically against the AI.

In the end, SPA is simply how much deviation there is with a pass compared to where it was supposed to go (see Pedro thread) which means that something else (ATK and cards) controls the decision making about where an AI controlled player decides to pass the ball. A player with low ATK will, in general, decide to play the ball more conservatively (and possibly struggle to break down the opposition defense) while high ATK will take riskier chances regardless of his abilities (and be more effective at breaking down the opposition). A player's position on the field, team style, and tactics also play a huge role in determining the AI decision making.

Allen seems like he is rated too highly in ATK for the type of passing and attacking vision that he has. PES 2013 has him at a 74 ATK which seems like a better value overall for a player who is not a genius attacker but is an excellent distributor who chooses high percentage safe passes over risky attacking ones.

Edited to clarify terminology.

Sure, you can do more with it as a human but it doesn't make the game play any more realistically against the AI.

I'm not really interested in what the AI does, it's too random and totally unrealistic. Still to this day, since pes 2009 zanetti is playing the most through balls on Inters team, I don't know what it is, but he does it more than sneijder. Theres nothing in his stats that can cause it, it's just random...

n the end, SPA is simply how much deviation there is with a pass compared to where it was supposed to go (see Pedro thread) which means that something else (ATK and cards) controls the decision making about where an AI controlled player

decides to pass the ball. A

Yes, and they go hand in hand. If you play diffuclt passes, you need higher SPA to complete the pass with accuracy. If Totti is playing extremely difficult passes in reality and they are going exactly where he wants them, then he needs a higher SPA to make sure the passes go where they are supposed to.

Re: Joe ALLEN

Posted: 2012 Sep 07, 19:36

by the sloth

xxx

Re: Joe ALLEN

Posted: 2012 Sep 07, 19:40

by vinnie

the sloth wrote:Agree but only if they are actually consistently completing those difficult passes not just because they are trying them. ATK should determine if they are trying the difficult passes, SPA determines a large part of if they succeed along with SPS.

I kind of share the same view on the matter as this one. Sorry for the intrusion. But, I was watching a bit of the Roma game, the game where Defo decided the big passing stats needed to be boosted, and while he did make some magnificant passes, i also saw some sloppiness and imprecision. His Vision is obviously amazing, but does that warrant better passing? I mean, of the percentages of passes he completed, it's not like he can't make the passes he's made because of lower passing accuracy, just that fewer times his pass will work. Then, when he did make that really great pass to osvaldo for the goal, Defo went nuts (fan boy ) and said that proves 99 SPA or something like that, inspecific i am at the moment, mind that, just lazy, but his passing deviation? not perfect, not godly. He has really really awesome vision, but from that one game (allow me to emphasize, i may be making a fool of myself, but of that one game, i saw that his passing accuracy didn't really prove to be much better then what it was pre-defo update. He can make that osvaldo pass, but just less often it'll work out. Btw, not really pointing anything at Defo, just using him as a reference point. And even if i'm wrong about Totti, which is an all too real possibility, as well Totti is a reference point, it can be applied broadly as well.

just my thoughts though, they're pretty darn abstract i'll agree... so don't make too much of them, this is my lunch break so yeaaah

Re: Joe ALLEN

Posted: 2012 Sep 07, 19:43

by jurgens

I get you then, I think it's just a misunderstanding. When I talk about difficult passes, I'm just talking about it as means to judge accuracy, as it's really shown in these instances.

Re: Joe ALLEN

Posted: 2012 Sep 07, 20:25

by Shine691

I'm happy keeping his SPA on 83. Any thoughts on a raise of his TW?

Also suggest a +1 DEF value and add position DMF.

Re: Joe ALLEN

Posted: 2012 Sep 07, 20:38

by jurgens

vinnie wrote:

the sloth wrote:Agree but only if they are actually consistently completing those difficult passes not just because they are trying them. ATK should determine if they are trying the difficult passes, SPA determines a large part of if they succeed along with SPS.

I kind of share the same view on the matter as this one. Sorry for the intrusion. But, I was watching a bit of the Roma game, the game where Defo decided the big passing stats needed to be boosted, and while he did make some magnificant passes, i also saw some sloppiness and imprecision. His Vision is obviously amazing, but does that warrant better passing? I mean, of the percentages of passes he completed, it's not like he can't make the passes he's made because of lower passing accuracy, just that fewer times his pass will work. Then, when he did make that really great pass to osvaldo for the goal, Defo went nuts (fan boy ) and said that proves 99 SPA or something like that, inspecific i am at the moment, mind that, just lazy, but his passing deviation? not perfect, not godly. He has really really awesome vision, but from that one game (allow me to emphasize, i may be making a fool of myself, but of that one game, i saw that his passing accuracy didn't really prove to be much better then what it was pre-defo update. He can make that osvaldo pass, but just less often it'll work out. Btw, not really pointing anything at Defo, just using him as a reference point. And even if i'm wrong about Totti, which is an all too real possibility, as well Totti is a reference point, it can be applied broadly as well.

just my thoughts though, they're pretty darn abstract i'll agree... so don't make too much of them, this is my lunch break so yeaaah

Hrm, this is contradicting what I just said, but SPA does play a factor in the type of passes that are played. Look at pes 6's riquelme, 98 SPA but 83 attack, Riquelme is so much more incisive and adventurous in his passing than say todays xavi or iniesta, yet they have much, much higher attack values than he ever had. Konami knows Riquelme very well, and it's gotta be one of the players who I've played against the most with AI, and his passing has killed me many times. So why didn't konami give him such a high attack as well? The high passing probably allows him to play the type of passes he'd play in real life. And what about say David silva? Hes clearly not that accurate with his through balls, but since he plays them with a big frequency, konami have given him a big value for SPA. There is countless examples of this too, SPA directly affects the type of passes you can play, konami rate their players in this way, why wouldn't we consider this? I know I'm rating it for the type of passes, and ending accuracy of the pass itself.

Re: Joe ALLEN

Posted: 2012 Sep 07, 21:16

by 21-Lucas-21

Shine691 wrote:I'm happy keeping his SPA on 83. Any thoughts on a raise of his TW?

Also suggest a +1 DEF value and add position DMF.

Agree with all of this.

Re: Joe ALLEN

Posted: 2012 Sep 07, 21:28

by the sloth

xxx

Re: Joe ALLEN

Posted: 2012 Sep 13, 17:43

by Till lindemann

his passing accuracy is really good, right now he deserves those stats, but in the future 84 for both long and short pass acurracy would be ok