I guess such things are difficult to understand. A sociaty which has strict orders, simply values of respect and clear autorities is not easy to understand for "modern" man. "A Good Buddhist or simply an authoritarian leader" may seem to be controversy but actually both has to come together incl. that what was pointed out by the quote of Ajahn Sumedho below.

Even good actions of authoritarian leader seem to create easy aversion, but that is lesser a fact of how it/they really is/are but a reaction out of traumata. Today there is much believe in a kind of Waldorf-Leadership, which is for sure great (if the karmic precondition are present) but in no way a general solution.

Just that! *smile*...We Buddhists must find the courage to leave our temples and enter the temples of human experience, temples that are filled with suffering. If we listen to Buddha, Christ, or Gandhi, we can do nothing else. The refugee camps, the prisons, the ghettos, and the battlefields will become our temples. We have so much work to do. ... Peace is Possible! Step by Step. - Samtach Preah Maha Ghosananda "Step by Step" http://www.ghosananda.org/bio_book.html

BUT! it is important to become a real Buddhist first. Like Punna did: Punna Sutta Nate sante baram sokham _()_

Thank you bhikkhu Gavesako for sharing knowledge, but the perfect society link is extremely hard to read

@ Hanzze,

I believe in freedom, it is not the goal but the requirement for the goal. Actually most of comforts we are using are the co-produce of freedom, free to discovery, free to think, free to do, internet, TV, car, phone,.. so IMO, at least show some gradtitude. I don't believe in strict rulers, it seems it is just a way to apply what you like and what you dislike to others. Great leaders should guide people, not force them, and people should have the choice to do it or not, even for the good things. By making decisions, people understand themselves and take responsibilites of themselves. Good things should be taught but if they don't like enlightenment, then let them be. Respects and orders should be built based on guides, teachings, and making example and understanding, not based on forcing. You need a good goal and a good method to reach that goal. In reality it is very hard, so we need talents but IMO, current situation is quite good, and freedom is not that bad at all.

How could a good leader guide you, if you do not give him the freedom to do so? Do you really think that there are leader who even have a little freedom similar to your? Freedom is a matter of understanding. If one likes to give freedom to others, he starts to act with compassion. Compassion means to abstain from unwholesome things. That is quite enought, but alsways to less for those who like "freedom".

Sometimes we need to put on the shoes of a leader to understand what it means. Costumer are not able to understand, they just like to consume and at best in a way, so that they will not need to feel remorse.

To have freedom from remorse , one needs to work on him self. In giving freedom to endless beings, one enters the street of freedom. For oen self and for others. No possibility to claim anything, one gets what one has sowed.

"Now, O monks, what is worldly freedom? The freedom connected with the material. What is unworldly freedom? The freedom connected with the immaterial. And what is the still greater unworldly freedom? When a taint-free monk looks upon his mind that is freed of greed, freed of hatred, and freed of delusion, then there arises freedom."

What ever freedom one likes to work for, it needs own work to be not a prison at least.

Just that! *smile*...We Buddhists must find the courage to leave our temples and enter the temples of human experience, temples that are filled with suffering. If we listen to Buddha, Christ, or Gandhi, we can do nothing else. The refugee camps, the prisons, the ghettos, and the battlefields will become our temples. We have so much work to do. ... Peace is Possible! Step by Step. - Samtach Preah Maha Ghosananda "Step by Step" http://www.ghosananda.org/bio_book.html

BUT! it is important to become a real Buddhist first. Like Punna did: Punna Sutta Nate sante baram sokham _()_

Just that! *smile*...We Buddhists must find the courage to leave our temples and enter the temples of human experience, temples that are filled with suffering. If we listen to Buddha, Christ, or Gandhi, we can do nothing else. The refugee camps, the prisons, the ghettos, and the battlefields will become our temples. We have so much work to do. ... Peace is Possible! Step by Step. - Samtach Preah Maha Ghosananda "Step by Step" http://www.ghosananda.org/bio_book.html

BUT! it is important to become a real Buddhist first. Like Punna did: Punna Sutta Nate sante baram sokham _()_

How could a good leader guide you, if you do not give him the freedom to do so? Do you really think that there are leader who even have a little freedom similar to your? Freedom is a matter of understanding. If one likes to give freedom to others, he starts to act with compassion. Compassion means to abstain from unwholesome things. That is quite enought, but alsways to less for those who like "freedom".

Sometimes we need to put on the shoes of a leader to understand what it means. Costumer are not able to understand, they just like to consume and at best in a way, so that they will not need to feel remorse.

To have freedom from remorse , one needs to work on him self. In giving freedom to endless beings, one enters the street of freedom. For oen self and for others. No possibility to claim anything, one gets what one has sowed.

"Now, O monks, what is worldly freedom? The freedom connected with the material. What is unworldly freedom? The freedom connected with the immaterial. And what is the still greater unworldly freedom? When a taint-free monk looks upon his mind that is freed of greed, freed of hatred, and freed of delusion, then there arises freedom."

What ever freedom one likes to work for, it needs own work to be not a prison at least.

Dear Hanzze,

Actually I didn't understand what is your point? You encouraged people own effort or what? It seems you don't understand how the world runs.

You think leaders are free to do what they want? Recently, Mr Obama said something like you can't change White House from the inside, while he really want to change it, but it seemed he failed badly.

Of course the freedom like the Buddha taught is the best thing that worth seeking, but we are talking about worldly things from political point of view. In this view, everything is seen in relationships, not from one's own effort. That why people like Dalai Lama failed badly at politics, he is a spiritual leader, he doesn't understand how to run a goverment. And from this point of view, you will not see people with spriritual background even Gandhi, Lama, some famous monks can affect the masses similar to political people.

If you read the suttas you will find example of how wise people run worldly things, especially the bodhisattva. He just let everyone free to do their work. They did if they wanted and they didn't if they did not want, even they were servicemen of him, that is something called freedom. He used other tools to control worldly things, similar to macro economical management. All in all it was solved in a good way, not much relates to personal ethics.

No actually the opposit. Not the slidest freedom, how else would they be in such a miserable situation?

whynotme wrote:....

Dhp 75. One is the quest for worldly gain, and quite another is the path to Nibbana. Clearly understanding this, let not the monk, the disciple of the Buddha, be carried away by worldly acclaim, but develop detachment instead.

I like this "Cakkavatti" story:

Your temple, your palace, your borders.

There is the story of a king who once built a special palace. He made it so impregnable that no enemy could enter it. We also, in life, make just such castles and take all precautions to keep the enemy away and be absolutely safe. What does man do all his life, after all? Why does he amass wealth? Why does he yearn for position and fame? So that he may feel safe and secure and life holds no terror for him. But the fun of the whole thing, and also the secret, is that the more measures he takes to safeguard himself, his fear increases in the same proportion. The king had also conquered all there was to conquer. No the only fear was to guard himself from the enemy; for the enemy conquered is still the enemy.He who tries to conquer others, makes enemies of all. Only he who is ready to accept defeat from another man alone be a friend in this world. The king wished to conquer the whole world so the whole world was his enemy and his fear had increased a thousandfold. When fear increased, it became necessary to make provisions for safety. He built a big palace with only one door. There were no other doors and no windows; not even a hole for the enemy to work through. Only one door - guarded by thousands of soldiers with naked swords.The neighbouring kind came to see this much-talked-of palace. He was terribly impressed and determined to make a similar palace for his own safety. While taking leave, he praised the king for his foresight and wisdom and reiterated his desire to follow his example. An old beggar sitting by the roadside heard this talk. He laughed aloud. The owner of the palace chided him saying: "What makes you laugh, fool?""Since you ask, Sire, I shall take the opportunity of telling you," said the beggar. "There is only one flaw in this marvellous structure. It is impregnable except for the door. The enemy can come through the door. If you step in and have the door covered with brick and mortar, it will be completely secure.Then no enemy can ever enter it.""If I do as you say, you fool, this palace will become my grave," said the king."It already is," said the fakir, "except for the door. Through this door the enemy can come, and if not the enemy, death is bound to come.""But I will be dead before that!" raved the king."Then understand this well." said the fakir. "As many doors as you had in your palace, so much of existence was with you. As you decreased the doors so also life diminished within you. Now one door is left - one lone opening to life; close it and shut out life forever. Therefore I say, there is only one flaw." And he broke into peals of laughter again. "I too had castles, your majesty,"the fakir continued. "Then I felt that they were no more than prison-houses. So I began to widen the doors and separate the walls. But I found that no matter how much I widened the doors the walls still remained, so I got out of the walls and came out in the open. Now I stay beneath the open skies and am alive in the perfect sense of the word."But have we not all built as many walls around us as we possibly could? The walls that are made of brick and mortar are not that dangerous, for they can be seen. There are other walls - subtle, imperceptible walls.... These are the hard screens - glass screens of concepts, of doctrines, of scriptures. Absolutely invisible!These walls we have built around our souls for complete security The thicker the walls, the farther it keeps us away from the open skies of Truth. Then the soul [better think on mind] becomes restless and struggles; and the more agitated the soul is, the more we strive to strengthen the walls. Then a fear grips us - perhaps this struggle, this restlessness, is due to the walls? The answer is "Yes." As long as the soul is confined, it cannot attain bliss. There is no sorrow except in captivity.

(from „The Beginning of the Beginning“ von Osho)

There is another story on freedom:

UNDERSTANDING THE ROOTS OF SLAVERY

To be totally free one needs to be totally aware, because our bondage is rooted in ourunconsciousness; it does not come from the outside. Nobody can make you unfree. You can bedestroyed but your freedom cannot be taken away unless you give it away. In the ultimateanalysis it is always your desire to be unfree that makes you unfree. It is your desire to bedependent, your desire to drop the responsibility of being yourself; that makes you unfree.

The moment one takes responsibility for oneself . . . And remember it is not all roses, thereare thorns in it; it is not all sweet, there are many bitter moments in it. The sweet is alwaysbalanced by the bitter, they always come in the same proportion. The roses are balanced by thethorns, the days by the nights, the summers by the winters. Life keeps a balance between thepolar opposites. So one who is ready to accept the responsibility of being oneself with all itsbeauties, bitternesses, its joys and agonies, can be free. Only such a person can be free. . . .

Live it in all its agony and all its ecstasy-both are yours. And always remember: ecstasycannot live without agony, life cannot exist without death, and joy cannot exist without sadness.That's how things are, nothing can be done about it. That's the very nature, the very Tao ofthings.

Accept the responsibility of being yourself as you are, with all that is good and with all that is had, with all that is beautiful and that which is not beautiful. In that acceptance a transcendence happens and one becomes free.

by Osho (“Freedom - The Courage to Be Yourself”)

While those approches are good to get more dettached form the idea benefits only caused by leadership, they also bear the danger of the other extreme of silly individualism (the Hindu elements which are very dominant everywhere today). I guess there is nobody who approached in a better way as Buddha. He gave all this attachemts no possibility to build up wrong views simply by focusing on ones own actions like the disiple of the Bamboo Acrobat Master did.

Here he might have touch this story a little in relation with sociaty and one self:

You cannot hide your unconsciousness; it surfaces. Your reality goes on expressing itself — you may not be able to see it, but everybody else can see it. This is a strange world! You may not see your unconsciousness, but everybody knows about it, just as YOU know about everybody else’s. Because we pay more attention to people than we do to our own mind, we are capable of knowing their faults, their reasons for misery, their causes of hell.

We are very wise as far as others are concerned and we are very unwise as far as we are concerned — with our own inner being. We are focused on others, and this creates two things: you can’t help others, you can only condemn them. And your condemnation is not going to change them; in return they will condemn you.

So society becomes a game of condemning each other. Nobody sees his own faults; on the contrary, everybody tries to cover them up. Not that he does not want to see them, he does not want them to be seen by others. But you can’t help it: others are bound to see, because whatsoever there is in your unconscious goes on surfacing.

by Osho

In this story it is interesting that he speaks about the three kinds of freedom like we find it in the Niramisa Sutta: Unworldly

THREE DIMENSIONS OF FREEDOM

Freedom is a three-dimensional phenomenon. The first is the physical dimension. You can be enslaved physically, and for thousands of years man has been sold in the marketplace just like any other commodity. Slaves have existed all over the world. They were not given human rights; they were not really accepted as human beings, they were thought of as subhuman. And people are still being treated as subhuman. In India there are sudras, the untouchables. Much of India is still living in slavery;' there are still parts of the country where these people cannot be educated, cannot move into other professions than those decided by tradition five thousand years ago.Even to touch them is thought to make you impure; you have to take a bath immediately. Even if you don't touch the person, but only his shadow--then too you have to take a bath.

And all over the world, the woman's body is not considered equal to the man's body. She is not as free as man is. In China for centuries the husband had the right to kill his wife without being punished because the wife was his possession. Just as you can destroy your chair or you can burn your house-because it is your chair, it is your house-it was your wife. In Chinese law there was no punishment for the husband if he killed his wife, because she was thought to be soulless. She was just a reproductive mechanism, a factory to produce children.

So there is physical slavery and there is physical freedom-that your body is not enchained, that it is not categorized as lower than anybody else's, that there is an equality as far as the body is concerned. But even today this freedom does not exist everywhere. It is becoming less and less so but it has not disappeared completely. Freedom of the body will mean that there is no distinction between black and white, that there is no distinction between man and woman, that there is no distinction of any kind as far as bodies are concerned. Nobody is pure, nobody is impure; all bodies are the same. This is the very basis of freedom.

Then there is the second dimension: psychological freedom. There are very few individuals in the world who are psychologically free . . . because if you are a Mohammedan you are not psychologically free; if you are a Hindu you are not psychologically free. Our whole way of bringing up children is to make them slaves, slaves of political ideologies, social ideologies, religious ideologies. We don't give them a chance to think on their own, to search on their own. We force their minds into a certain mold. We stuff their minds with things-things that even we are not experienced in. Parents teach children that there is a God-and they know nothing of God. They tell their children that there is heaven and there is hell-and they know nothing of heaven and hell.

You are teaching your children things that you don't know yourself. You are just conditioning their minds because your minds were conditioned by your parents. This way the disease goes on from one generation to another generation.

Psychological freedom will be possible when children are allowed to grow, helped to grow to more intellect, more intelligence, more consciousness, more alertness. No belief will be given to them. They will not be taught any kind of faith, but they will be given as much incentive as possible to search for truth. And they will be reminded from the very beginning: "Your own truth, your own finding, is going to liberate you; nothing else can do that for you."Truth cannot be borrowed. It cannot be studied in books. Nobody can inform you about it. You have to sharpen your intelligence yourself, so that you can look into existence and find it. If a child is left open, receptive, alert, and given the incentive for search, we will have psychological freedom. And with psychological freedom comes tremendous responsibility. You don't have to teach it to him; it comes like the shadow of psychological freedom. And he will be grateful to you. Otherwise every child is angry at his parents because they have ruined him: they destroyed his freedom, they conditioned his mind. Even before he asked any questions, they filled his mind with answers that are all bogus-because they are not based on his own experience. The whole world lives in psychological slavery.

And the third dimension is the ultimate of freedom--which is knowing that you are not the body,knowing that you are not the mind, knowing that you are only pure consciousness. That knowledge comes through meditation. It separates you from the body, it separates you from the mind, and ultimately only you are there as pure consciousness, as pure awareness. That is spiritual freedom. These are the three basic dimensions of freedom for the individual.

The collective has no soul, the collective has no mind. The collective has no body even; it is only a name. It is just a word. For the collective, there is no need for freedom. When all the individuals are free, the collective will be free. But we are very impressed by words, so much so that we forget that words don't have any substance. The collective, the society, the community, the religion, the church--they are all words. There is nothing real behind them.I am reminded of a small story. In Alice in Wonderland, Alice is coming to the palace of the queen. When she arrives the queen asks her, "Did you meet a messenger on the way coming towards me?"And the little girl says, "Nobody. I met nobody."And the queen thought "nobody" was somebody, so she asks,"But then why has Nobody not reached here yet?"The little girl said, "Madam, nobody is nobody!"And the queen said, "Don't be stupid! I understand: Nobody must be Nobody, but he shouldhave arrived before you. It seems Nobody walks slower than you do."And Alice said, "That is absolutely wrong! Nobody walks faster than me!"In this way the dialogue continues. Through the whole dialogue, "nobody" becomessomebody, and it is impossible for Alice to convince the queen that "nobody" is nobody.

The collective, the society-all these are just words. That which really exists is the individual; otherwise there will be a problem. What is the freedom of a Rotary Club? What is the freedom of the Lions Club? These are just names.

The collective is a very dangerous idea. In the name of the collective the individual, the real, has always been sacrificed. I am absolutely against it. Nations have been sacrificing individuals in the name of the nation--and "nation" is just a word. The lines that you have drawn on the map are not anywhere on the earth. They are just your game. But fighting over those lines that you have drawn on the map, millions of people have died-real people dying for unreal lines. And you make them heroes, national heroes!

This idea of the collective has to be destroyed completely; otherwise in some way or other we will continue sacrificing the individual. We have sacrificed the individual even in the name of religion, in religious wars. Mohammedan dying in a religious war knows that his paradise is certain. He has been told by the cleric, If you are dying for Islam then your paradise is absolutely certain, with all the pleasures you have ever imagined or dreamt of. And the person you have killed will also reach paradise because he has been Ned by a Mohammedan. It is a privilege for him, so you need not feel guilty that you have lulled a man." Christians have crusades-a jihad, a religious war-and kill thousands of people, burn living human beings. For what? For some collectivity-for Christianity, for Buddhism, for Hinduism, for communism, for fascism, anything will do. Any word representing some collectivity, and the individual can be sacrificed.

There is no reason for the collectivity even to exist: individuals are enough. And if individuals have freedom, are psychologically free, are spiritually free, then naturally the collective will be spiritually free.

The collective consists of individuals, not vice versa. It has been said that the individual is only a part of the collective; that is not true. The individual is not just a part of the collective; the collective is only a symbolic word for individuals meeting together. They are not parts of anything; they remain independent. They remain organically independent, they don't become parts of a collective.

If we really want ,a world of freedom, then we have to understand that in the name of the collectivity so many massacres have happened that now it is time to stop. All collective names should lose the grandeur that they have had in the past. Individuals should be the highest value.The freedom from something is not true freedom. The freedom to do anything you want to do is also not ,the freedom I am talking about. My vision of freedom is to be yourself.

It is not a question of getting freedom from something. That freedom will not be freedom, because it is still given to you; there is a cause to it. The thing that you were feeling dependent on is still there in your freedom. You are obliged to it. Without it you would not have been free.

The freedom to do anything you want is not freedom either, because wanting, desiring to "do"something, arises out of the mind--and mind is your bondage. The true freedom comes out of choiceless awareness, but when there is choiceless awareness the freedom is neither dependent on things nor dependent on doing something. The freedom that follows choiceless awareness is the freedom just to be yourself. And you are yourself already, you are born with it; hence it is not dependent on anything else.Nobody can give it to you and nobody can take it from you. A sword can cut your head but it cannot cut your freedom, your being. It is another way of saying that you are centered, rooted in your natural, existential self. It has nothing to do with outside. Freedom from things is dependent on the outside. Freedom to do something is also dependent on the outside. Freedom to be ultimately pure has not to be dependent on anything outside you.

You are born as freedom. It: is just that you have been conditioned to forget it. Layers upon layers of conditionings have made you a puppet. The strings are in somebody else's hands. If you are a Christian, you are a puppet. Your strings are in the hand of a God that does not exist, so just to give you the sense that God exists there are prophets, messiahs, representing God. They represent nobody, they are just egoistic people -- and even the ego wants to reduce you to a puppet !They tell you what to do, they give? they give you Ten Commandments.

They give you your personality-that you are a Christian, a Jew, a Hindu, a Mohammedan. They give you your so-called knowledge. And naturally, under the great burden that they start giving you from the very beginning of your childhood-the Himalayan load you are carrying-underneath it, hidden, repressed, is your natural self. If you can get rid of all conditionings, if you can think that you are neither a communist nor a fascist, that you are neither a Christian nor a Mohammedan . . .You were not born a Christian or Mohammedan; you were born just pure, innocent consciousness. To be again in that purity, in that innocence, in that consciousness, is what Imean by freedom.

Freedom is the ultimate experience of life. There is nothing higher than that. And out of freedom many flowers blossom in you. Love is the flowering of your freedom. Compassion, another flowering of your freedom. All that is valuable in life flowers in the innocent, natural state of your being.

So don't connect freedom with independence. Independence is naturally from something, from somebody. Don't connect freedom with doing things that you want to do, because that is your mind, not you. Wanting to do something, desiring to do something, you are in the bondage of your wanting and your desiring. With the freedom I am talking about, you simply are--in utter silence, serenity, beauty, bliss.

by Osho (“Freedom - The Courage to Be Yours”)

Just that! *smile*...We Buddhists must find the courage to leave our temples and enter the temples of human experience, temples that are filled with suffering. If we listen to Buddha, Christ, or Gandhi, we can do nothing else. The refugee camps, the prisons, the ghettos, and the battlefields will become our temples. We have so much work to do. ... Peace is Possible! Step by Step. - Samtach Preah Maha Ghosananda "Step by Step" http://www.ghosananda.org/bio_book.html

BUT! it is important to become a real Buddhist first. Like Punna did: Punna Sutta Nate sante baram sokham _()_

And still there could be one (actually there are countless) who thinks: "If I would be absolutly free, or if there would be somebody absolutly free, he/she would be the perfect Cakkavatti.", he would do wise if he bares this words in mind, if not seen or understood by one self yet.

The Exalted One was once staying among the Kosalese hi the Himalaya regions, dwelling hi a leaf-hut.

Now as the Exalted One was meditating hi privacy, this thought arose hi his heart : " Is it possible to exercise governance without smiting nor letting others slay, without conquering nor causing others to conquer, without sorrowing nor making others sorrow righteously ? "

Then Mara the evil one, discerning what was hi the mind of the Exalted One, drew near to him, and said : " Let the Exalted One, lord, exercise governance, let the Blessed One rule without smiting nor letting others slay, without conquering nor causing others to conquer, without sorrowing nor making others sorrow, and therewithal ruling righteously."

" Lord, the four stages to potency have by the Exalted One been developed, repeatedly practised, made a vehicle, established, persevered in, persisted in, well applied. Thus if the Exalted One were to wish the Himalaya, king of the mountains, to be gold, he might determine it to be so, and the mountain would become a mass of gold."

(The Exalted One)

"And were the mountain all of shimmering gold, Not e'en twice reckoned would it be enough For one man's wants. This let us learn To know, and shape our lives accordingly. He that hath suffering seen, and whence its source How should that man to sense-desires incline ? If he but understand rebirth's substrate And know ; here hangs the world bound fast alway, He fain must work the bonds to eliminate."

Then Mara the evil one thought : " The Exalted One knows me. The Blessed One knows me," and sad and sorrow- ful he vanished there and then.

Just that! *smile*...We Buddhists must find the courage to leave our temples and enter the temples of human experience, temples that are filled with suffering. If we listen to Buddha, Christ, or Gandhi, we can do nothing else. The refugee camps, the prisons, the ghettos, and the battlefields will become our temples. We have so much work to do. ... Peace is Possible! Step by Step. - Samtach Preah Maha Ghosananda "Step by Step" http://www.ghosananda.org/bio_book.html

BUT! it is important to become a real Buddhist first. Like Punna did: Punna Sutta Nate sante baram sokham _()_