Thursday, December 24, 2009

RIFLED OR SMOOTH BORE MORTAR?

I have been informed that the Malaysian Army have recently acquired the 120mm Rifled Mortars and plans to mount them on the Adnan AFV. This deployment suggest that the mortars will become assets of the Mechanised Infantry units, which I am told was initially to be the assets of the Parachute Battalions. I have no qualms about the army acquiring the mortars, but questioned the rational and justification behind the final choice of a rifled mortars, against the more popular smooth bore mortars.

If my memory hasn't failed me, I could still remember that back in mid 1990's or thereabout, a study was made by a team of army officers to identify and to proposed which of the two mortar systems i.e. rifled or smooth bore mortars is suitable for the army.

I remembered too that in 1995, an article on the 120 mm Mortar was published in Sorotan Darat and the writer of the article did indicate that the smooth bore mortar is better preferred over the rifled mortar. This confirms with the findings of the study team which also recommended the smooth bore mortars, as oppose to the rifled mortars.

I am not aware if there was a further study made regarding the mortars, subsequent to the first study. And if there was none, I can assume here that someone must have concocted the findings, or recommendations of the study team to favour the rifled mortars, and not the smooth bore mortars.

Rumblings are abuzz, both within and outside the army circles that the decision to favour the rifled mortars was made not based on a professional finding, but rather a decision based upon business imperatives with the likelihood of favourable monetary benefits to personalities involved in the decision making. I stand to be corrected on this, but if such a decision was true, this ought to be thoroughly investigated.

I am not interested in the total costs paid by the government for the procurement, as I know it is quite exorbitant, as there has to be the usual largess to be 'disbursed'. This is the most damning inclusion to our procurement system, that has now become somewhat of an SOP.

I hope my readers can throw some light to the issues that I have deliberated above, in our earnest desire to arrest this unethical practices among those involved (civilians and military alike) in the army's procurement system. There has been so much of talk that the decision to procure in the army today is decided by one man or the supremo, and not the all powerful and mandated Jawatankuasa Keperluan Operasi Tentera Darat (JKKOTD)

I would strongly recommend that the readership does personal research on, after World War II, how many countries employ rifled mortars and for what reasons? Then we can start the debate, where I believe succint conclusions can be made one way or another. May I have the liberty to say "Malaysia Bolih".

You did tell me you attended RISIK course at Sungai Besi Camp. Brother by now (you left the service anyway) there's such thing as political purchase which the military didn't want anyway or PROJEK WAHYU.

The word ACCOUNTABILITY has been the cliche for the past decades, used by the higher echelons when talking to the rakyat or subordinates.

To a materialist it sounds like a jigsaw-puzzle.

We are living in IT era that cannot differentiate between right and wrong.

This crusade against corruption by our beloved Dato shall start from upstairs. Ironically dakwah begins from downword and those clinging to power upstairs are very sceptical, we know what we are doing.

The whole system and machinery should be overhauled. The big sinners are not punished and the poor will be the scapegoats.

In the military the sinners will be "dinasihatkan berhenti" dishonorbaly or diplomatically.

In the early days we had heard of "curi minyak". Ini the early 80s whe had heard of Magee Mee that cost 20 sen per packt was dold RM3.60 per packet to the military.

Again. Think of duit rakyat.

We have peculiar courses in the military which are any time better than Biro Tata Negara. PULADA was one the earlier intsitution to groom the young officers.

That character building should be churned with spiritual touch. Otherwise we will be like robots.

As far as I know, smooth bore mortar required another type of round which, spin stabilized rounds. AS What I know, rifled bore are much more accurate as the round's trajectory is more precise without not much deflection. because the mortar round is stabilized from the spinning fin.But I think, loading a mortar round into a rifled bore more could be slower. Maybe the rate of fire is not so critical compared to accuracy for long range high caliber weapon, we get more precision by sacrificing the rate of fire. Anyone expert who can explain the advantage and disadvantage between smooth and rifled bore morty??

Aren't STRIDE suppose to conduct research and comparisons between smooth bore and rifled bore mortar before the procurement?? There's some rumours that I heard before that, STRIDE doesn't do much works on R&D,I don't know whether it's true or not, but I hope It's not.

Anyway, I think even when the evaluation pointed out certain weapon is the best, the end result is we won't get the weapon that's proven to be the best during the evaluation process. At last, we'll get the sub standard weapon or equipment.

And, lastly, are those officers who are tasked on evaluation on military assets before the procurement are those who are truly specialized and having the relevant knowledge and qualification regarding the weapons and assets? Are they really professional and expert? weapons are not only tools, weapons are technology, weapons are high-end-precise-engineering based on science and technology knowledge and principle. can someone please explain..

Thanks for the comments. What you said is exactly what I heard from the experts. Yes, accuracy is not too important because mortars are area weapons; nor precision weapons like a rifle.Yes, we will be saddled with logistics, especially the mortar rounds is going to be expensive. I am told too that even the US Army have dumped the Rifled Mortars for the Smooth Bore, and why are we so dumb to buy something that others no longer uses. This is where I think the 'dirty hands' come to play. Best of luck to the Army.

Yes the Army has their own experts to evaluate whatever new weapons systems it wishes to procure.

Few hold Doctorate and Master degrees in Weapon Systems from foreign universities and many have attended technical courses at the University of Cranfield UK and technical courses at specialized Army schools overseas.So they know what to look for when assigned to evaluate a particular weapon system

About STRIDE, the institution seems to be working in secrecy.I dare say many serving members of the MAF even do not know much about STRIDE, let alone what type of R & D activities they are undertaking for the MAF!

The Army will always want the best weapon system for its troops.However, it does not get what it wants most of the time.The final decision lies with the political master who has to consider, I suppose many other factors as well.

Because of the political master's unfamiliarity with military weapon systems, often mistakes are made in the final choice of weapon systems for the Army.This has put an intense stress on the Army to operationalize and maintain the weapons purchased for them.

Someone did say that there is no limit to the amount of commission the French will offer, if we buy their products; unlike buying US products. I now see quite clearly why we go for French. Who loses in the end; the government, and isn't the government concern about the money flow out to the coffers of some unscrupulous agents and traders? We seem to be experts in enriching the rich and poor and enriching the hardcore poor.

Look at the commission given by the French company to Razak Baginda's company, Perimekar.A whopping RM500 million!Come to about 10% of the final selling price on the 2 submarines.The RM500 million given to Perimekar does not come French profit.It is a mark-up on their selling price to Malaysia.It is Petronas/taxpayers' money.

The French do not care because it is not their money.As far as they are concern, it is the Malaysian government cheating on their own people.So why should they care? Among themselves, they would say, the Malaysian leaders are corrupted lot, so let's corrupt them through and through.

Come to think of it, we blame our politicians for corrupting the MAF.They hijacked the sanctity of the MAF for their own monetary benefits.Some of our Generals could not resist jumping the bandwagon to make hay while the sun shine.This creates a chain down the line to support the corrupt military leader(s) and hence at the end of the day everbody have their fingers on the pie.

I believe if the political master had set a good example like the our former political masters in the 50's to 70's, everbody down the line will not dare to take a single sen from the arms supplier.

It is clear we have destroyed ourselves through our economic success.Can we reinvent the wheel?The answer is surely yes, through the parliamentary process, to put in place a Defence Procurement Act that would see the overhauling of the Procurement Mechanism and Systems, including commission allowed by foreign companies to local agents.Better still defence purchases to be conducted on government-to government basis following the Singapore examples.

Dear Dato', Peh and Maurice,Yes, you are getting somewhere there on the merits/demerits of rifled vs. smooth bore, but a little muddled, I believe. Get your hands on "Guns, Rockets and Mortars", by RMCS Shrivenham. The question of accuracy, range, speed of engagement, logistics etc. are all "trade off"factors. Here, the evaluation team drives it's points across beyond the technical issues. I will not question the professionalism and the credibility of the evaluation team, as they are good officers and also known to me.I also must admit that I do not know the ability of STRIDE as it is today, but, when I was in service then, I was not impressed with their predecessor as far as R&D was concerned. They only knew how to tell the time after looking at your watch. They only stated the obvious after hours of data collection. I still remember how this guy was holding a manufacturer's manual and only confirming the specs. When I asked him whether he has tested another model which has better specs for comparison, he just said he was told to check this one out and that is that. My discussion with him on ballistics was another sad tale, he didn't have a bloody clue. So, dare I say we are good at fooling ourselves, and become very defensive when criticised

I wish you could elaborate more on the RMCS Shirivenham teaching in relation to the project ie where the Evaluation Team had done right and wrong in their evaluation of the smooth vs rifled bore mortar.This way we will know the line of argument you are adopting on the issue.

In any evaluation exercise one has to balance the technical capabiity of the weapon system against the realities on the ground such as Concept of Operations, Terrain and Logistics.

If one system is so technically superior as to make a major impact on the outcome of a battle, sure it we should be endorsed wholeheartedly.For example, the proposal to use the UAV as surveillance and strike device should be supported by every quarter because this will affect the way how the Army is going to operate in the future, just like how FM Rommel uses his Panzer Division to surprise the French Meuse lines.

So one should not fault the Technical Team for their recommendations because I believed they had considered all the factors into consideration (not just the technical factor alone).I suspect it is the potential logistic nightmare that tip the scale in their deliveration.

8-12 pieces of 120mm rifled or smooth bore mortars will not make any major impact on the outcome of any battle.So why take the risk to procure the rifled bore mortar when you going to face a single source supply problem later on?

a. First they said it was one engine, now it is twob. First they said the engines had gone to Argentina, then the Middle East, now it is to a country in South America.c. First they said that a brigadier and 40 personnel were dismissed because of the stolen engines, now they say that it was because of non-performance.d. First they said that it was an internal affair and that the Air Force will take action using internal processes, now they say that it is in the hands of the AG and the police.

I appreciate the confusion as at least our leaders are not gagged like in some neighbourinng countries.

I have followed the development closely and herewith I think is the situation:

1. The 1xBG and 40 others were sacked due to abuses in the purchases of aircraft spare parts through the DPA (direct purchase agreement) system.In the DPA system altogether, there were 25 local comapanies given contract to supply aircraft spare parts to Logistic Command located in RMAF Base Sg Besi.The abuses would have been so serious that led to the dismissal of the 1xBG and 40 others.

2. The stolen engine is a separate case altogether.It is the work of small group of people who were supposed to look after the security of the engines.But of course some people higher up will have to bear responsibility as these small group of people were under their command when the engines were stolen.

3. The IGP had ben quoted by a local daily that the 2 engines are in Argentina.So the information comes from an authorative source, others are merely shooting in the dark.

I would say it is not a crisis, merely an embarassment for everybody in particular the RMAF.

Now is the right time for the Government to hold a Royal Inquiry/Public Review to examine the circumstances that led to the abuses and loss of engines.We could learn valuable lessons to get things right in the future.

The government should look at other countries how they have successfully reduced maintenance cost for their respective air forces.

I believe the stolen engines case is now handled by the AG chambers and the Police.Those involved will be tried under our criminal justice system and not the AKTA72.

I feel that would be the right thing to do, as we all are entitled to be informed what had gone wrong in the RMAF.Also there might be civilians involved as well which are outside the jurisdiction of AKTA1972.

I can assure you that our voices are being heard. I get a lot of feed backs, and many in the service reads our comments. My advice to the services; better watch out. And for those on the take, you had better leave now or you might end up in jail.

,,,sorry they just can't be allowed 'scot-free' to leave the services if they were found guilty for corruption !,,,(i repeat it here !!).. hanky panky defence expenditures plus in fact many others, is indeed used for kickbacks to government cronies and in return, they provide political funding to the ruling politicians to remain in power.,,,this is part the “tip of the iceberg” as claimed by the Armed Forces Chief, who is an out-spoken guy that could make the change/reform finally for this beloved country of ours. ,,,I think, the current politician is fooling with the wrong guy, just wait and see “their’s vs his” next move ?..Haha!! Hope they go for "zero sum game" rather than "win/win", for a major reform/transformation to take place finally. ,,,Don’t get the wrong idea about this MAF new chief, his smiling face does not show the real McCoy. Note; McCoy’s moral standing gave Azizan the benefit of having three brains plus hats instead of just one. That I think, where/when/why the Dirty Politicians will meet their end.,,,”Pray before you are prayed for”i.e. my only advise to the guilty, for some of you stupid greedy guys, the gallow is waiting for treason. The End game.

New Military Standards - No handing and taking over notes at service chiefs/minister's levels? - thus the missing engines were not mentioned? No stock taking done or required anymore? If military property is handed over to third parties for repair and /or refurbishment no periodical checks are done to ascertain status? Simply a case of failure to do your duty.

We trust & hope the present Chief of the Armed Forces will be able to do a "Check & Balance" and put the mess in order in the Armed Forces. The Only hope of the Rakyat is that the Armed Forces can be a neutral Institution for the Security & Safety of the country. We are not sure whether this can be achieved in a holistic manner.

Is the Armed Forces able to:

a. Act as a Check & Balance to the Political Masters, advising them what is Right & Wrong.

b. Is the Armed Forces able to ensure a true Security & Safety of the Rakyat.

c. Is the Armed Forces able to be the Eyes & Ears of the Rakyat.

d. Is the Armed Forces able to unite the Rakyat.

e. Is the Armed Forces able to put a Stop to all abuses in the Govenment / Judiciary / PDRM et etc etc....

,,,firstly, congratulations too to you and wishing you & family a Happy New Year acoming. Your blog site has indeed allowed continuous dialoque on affirmative topics for the rest to participate as an equal, essential voice. ,,,An essential citizen engagement that holds people in high regard and invites them to make a difference through the alignment of strengths..plus creating a culture of honesty and against evils of corruption and to right what is wrong for our nation's future.,,,Syabas again Dato and may Almighty God bless you & your family. Salute to you.

Allow me to ask you this simple question.After all of you left the service be it officers or other ranks have you ever tried of bidding a contract with Mindef? For those who have tried would be able to relate their nasty experience with Mindef.I tried once to get a contract to build a camp for PLKN.....then I realise that it was a hush hush procedures, no open tender,no consideration for ex service, no experience required.The ticket then to get a contract to build a PLKN camp was "whom u know".I failed and that was the first and the last time I put my foot in Mindef.

Now, talking about the rot in TUDM I honestly believe that TUDM needs total revamp from top to bottom.The SOP's are outdated and need review and ammmendmment.Put the right men for the right job.Pilots are no superman, and they are not jack of all trade.Mind you let them stick to their own profession of flying those stupid machine and prey every day that it will not crash.TUDM in my opinion should go back to its original being, where 4 clear branches would be able to play their role well and professionally.Flyers should not look low upon non flyers and shouldnt try to become suppliers,engineers and administrators as these functions of the Airforce needs skill of its own.Officers have been trained for years in their respective field therefore dont mess it up.Now the Airforce is reaping the fruit of its seed planted by Pilots in the 90s.

Dear Maurice,I am not trying to stomp on democracy and freedom of expression,my only concern is with those who does not understand how things work in the AirForce supply of engines, equipments,materials and assets made stupid statements and remark about TUDM fiasco.The resultant is polluted mind of the readers.I prefer absolute truth of facts which ia the domain of Air Force personnel.Orang lain jangan masuk campur ,as u are going to muddle up the issues by relying on heresay and made the general public hate the AirForce and ATM at large.

To me ATM is a system within a system.Why cant happening in the Armed Forces be confine to ATM first.ATM has its own concise Akta ATM 1972 which explain in detail the powers , jurisdiction, offences, punishment, administration of justice, Court Martial, investigation,board of inquiries, pay and allowances etc etc.The fault lies with our Generals who refuses to read or understand the whole Armed Forces ACT 1972 to know where they stand legally ,democratically,and Armed Forces position vis to vis the Federal Constitution per se.Since Generals feel themselves subserviant to politician and KSUs ,then they are lowering their status equivalent to KP RELA,KP KASTAM,KP SPRM,KP IMMIGERESEN,KP BOMBA and other KPs who wears 4 stupid stars on their shoulder now.What happen to Jawatankuasa Panglima Panglima a platform which they could use to voice their critical mind collectively.While in the service I admire General who sit in the chair of DMI, as I equate him as head of Gestapo.What is his function now "licking ....." may be.

Talking about the TUDM fiasco,I believe TUDM has mishandle the situation.TUDM in the first instance should conduct a Board of Inquiry as to the missing engine.The finding of this inquiry shall be used as a basis to surcharge all those military personnel invovled.Subsequently all of them Court Martialled,and punished if found guilty.A Mareva Injuctions and Anton Pillar order obtained from the civil court to freeze all ill gotten gain of these prepetrators must be obtained.As such the feeling of confidence of the general public towards the Armed Forces remain intact,public money protected,administration of justice in the Armed Forces is seen done.

Akta ATM 1972 has very wide power read it if you disagree with me.Even the Attorney General has no jurisdiction over Court Martial it is clearly written in there.Power of Investigation is given to the Provost Marshal and his merry men.Armed Forces also has its own prison.Section 88 of Akta ATM 1972 also gave jurisdiction to try service personnel for civil offences inclusive of the Penal Code. I wonder what has the Judge Advocate General advice be to the Majlis Angkatan Tentera in the case of Missing Jet Engine.The Military Law is there loud and clear but the people in power prefer to behave like "beruk dapat bunga",leaving everything to the civilian to administer Military Justice.Why must we maintain Military Justice System..........because only those who drank air stokin,royal flush,duck walking,star jump,etc etc etc understand the going on in the Military and not the Attorney General Gani Patail neither Musa Hassan. The Akta ATM 1972 was specially formulated by Parliament for the Military to administer its own justice, I see no reason why ATM must or shall hand it over to the AG and PDRM to administer for them.ATM was created to be the Supremo but prefers to be a "Mak Nyah" instead.........

Back to the topic in hand..USMC has selected a rifled bore 120mm mortar for its EFSS requirement some time back. It depends on the sets of requirement of each army I guess. Even the latest Russian mortar 2S31 is a rifled one. If Im not mistaken, the French 2R2M rifled mortar is a unique design, in which it has the ability to fire both type of rounds (smoothbore/rifled-specific). USMC's XM326 DFire II is based on the 2R2M system.

Dear All..I have said before, if all the Big Chiefs are God Fearing and God Knowing persons we will not be where we are today!

There is no DVD or CD that can show how a corrupted person suffers in HELL FIRE ( Neraka Jahanam). If there is one available, maybe we would have less or these maggots in this world! Including politicians !

WHEN YOUR ARSE IS CAUGHT BY THE POWERS THAT BE, YOU BECOME A MULE AND ANOTHER "LEMBU CUCUK HIDUNG'

YES SIR TYPES! THREE BAGS OF BIG BLOODY FOOLS !

SEMUA TOP ECHLEON TAKUT KEPADA : BOSS/POLITICIAN/MENTERI/YB !

"It is call a vicious circle - you do it , others do it and everybody starts doing it!"

It never ends! Death will eventually come and that is where it ENDS!

AND A NEW CHAPTER STARTS!"MASAK DALAM AIR PANIH!"

How to deal with the subordinates when the boss is all the time doing the wrong things openly!How can you justify your actions when the kettle is blacker than the POT!

Soldiers here keep silent on many issues, we are lucky. But they talk amongst themselves for sure! How to walk tall when your own soldiers knows your dirt and shit, how can one command the respect of the soldiers?

The saddest part is, same as the others outside most leaders are MALAYS and hopefully they are god fearing Muslims! Otherwise masak nanti semua!

"HOW CAN THE ATM REGAIN ITS PAST GLORIES AND RESPECT WHEN MORONS USING THEIR BRAINS TO THINK, ACT & BEHAVE ARE LEADING!

,,,am actually a very simple guy that loves the MAF, RMAF and our beloved Malaysia.,,,will tell you what I think is relevant later, at the most opportune moment as deemed by or if linked to dato's blog subject issue.,,,indeed, would it be a severe case of "Paranoia" if we, the people/rakyat, start to wonder what else has been stolen from our military?.. Like our national defence strategy and tactical blueprint etc etc ?? After all, these are hyper sensitive and highly protected secrets (or supposed to be-lah..M'sia Boleh semua dan apa apa kan Geeee,..issh issh issh, YOU'R RIGHT !!). ,,,Pls try to remember what they said in Parliament when questions were raised as to WHY there was no open tender for the submarines that we bought from France ??. It was said that open tenders should not be called because that will expose our national security matters unnecessarily..plus the special tips of rm500M could not be obtained perhaps??.

,,,Aaaah well, why must we worry yaa. We still have our 2 x FRENCHY submarines..but NOW some local mafia set-up is asking for another rm2 billion for SubSea-SAR facilities etc which in fact, we have already in the offshore Oil & Gas industry to cater for all, only if these people in MINDEF have the brains to look outside their black box.,,,Just liaison/Co-operation, plus working together with PETRONAS-lah, even the US Navy works hand in hand with the Oil majors for sub-sea SAR nowadays. We have mini Sub. plus Deep Water/sea diving activities almost on a daily basis and maybe our Navy could learn a few professional tricks here too. If Not why Not ?.

Cannot teach a duck how to swimCannot teach a cock how to crowCannot teach a general what to do

They mister know all, lest you shall be charged for "insurbodinating" his or their intelligence !

Did you read about the F18 cerita at Dr Raffick blog....no code word to fire guns unless Yankees says so!Revealed by TON MAMAK!Very shocking and frightening indeed...lucky we retire and not going to war with them goons!

Professional evaluation or study is a waste of time as it serves on only as an 'eye wash'. Bottom line in 1Malaysia Bolehland, the Minister will decide regardless whether meeting service requirement or otherwise.Direct negotiation seems to be the way ahead and will be supported strongly by the KSU. PAT and service chiefs...nomally will adjust...pandai-pandai jaga diri.

Thank god we still have the veterans to shed some lights for us to understand on how our beloved military decide on purchasing weapons to defend our homeland. It's sad that all our institutions are so corrupted. It's not BN fault for all these problems. We can only blame ourselves for ignoring it for so many years. If we can't even stop school principal from taking bribes how can we stop the generals, police officer, ministers,etc from take bribes.

,,,This was a common conceit among bloggers of my generation. We would reveal what was hidden, muddled or distorted. The truth would set everyone free. It sustained good government. We were democracy's watchdogs and clarifiers. BUT one thing I learned is that these satisfying ideas are at best simplifications—and at worst illusions. Truth comes in infinite varieties; every story can have many narratives. There are always new facts, and sometimes today's indisputable fact qualifies or rebuts yesterday's.

,,,I started with the naive notion that, by exposing and explaining how the world worked, I would in some small way contribute to better government and a saner society. What I discovered firsthand is what I already knew intuitively: Democracy is a messy, often shortsighted, unreasoned and selfish process. People have interests, beliefs and prejudices that, once firmly entrenched, are not easily dislodged—and certainly not by logic or evidence.

,,,Good information does not inexorably lead to good government. "Never underestimate the difficulty of changing false beliefs by facts,"