Yes - we need more - FULL CARE - facilities - we also need more students graduating from medical school ( many many many more ). American students - as right now we seem to have more foreign students rather than domestic students.

quote>>> "...Voting out the lesser evils still slides the bar further downward...."

downward from what ? ... if there is no good candidate that can win,,, then the lessor evil slides the bar at lessor downward... voting for the 1% total sellout (tea party) ... slides the bar as far down as possible

all the more reason to support the lessor of the evils... then attack them in the primary's ... and it's not going to change.... until either we have direct democracy... and/or "money out of politics" ..

Hell.- anyone who wants to support life on the planet! One would think that any occupier would have the tea party marked down as being one visible arm of the evil confronting this world - No - IFs ANDs or BUTs.

No one is debating that fact. We can sit here and point fingers and blame like a bunch of attack ads till we are blue in the face.

Who is replacing them. That is the million dollar question. You replace one huge sack of crap with a marginal sack of crap, and the ones pulling the strings still get a sack of crap to play with, and here we are.

Take a look around. Look at the atrocities- yes thats what they are- that so called liberal voters are willing to tolerate. Its absolutely incredible. The most henious crimes on the planet are allowed out of fear of the opponent. Thats the name of this game.

It would seem that way. But its always seen that way before, there have been how many "death of the party" moments and periods for each of them?

Its almost inevitable, because when one party gets too much power, its all eyes on them and the excuses get harder to come by, which in turns allows the other to more strongly voice "we have the answers" which in turn gets their base out and about, with the other one shaking their heads as to what the hell happened to the people they voted for.

And around and around it goes, election after election after election.

Finding and electing good people could in theory work, but trust me, it is much harder than that. Most talented people dont want anything to do with politics, due to its raw nature, the attack ads, and the people's total complicity in it by voting for the ones who run such trash.

So you end up with slackers whose rich friends convinced them to run. People who are easily impressed, like the attention, are very excited at meeting certain "big names" etc. You get the exact opposite type of personality of a working class person.

With those two points being indisputable, it is then up to people like me to find- in my free time- people who would like to get involved and run, to make a difference. I have very little money for them, and if they have any mistakes in their past, it will come out if we start to make some noise, and the machine will wreak havoc on their lives.

So that is the environment of campaigning for candidates. Its extremely difficult.

I hear ya, its tough. You can have the platform that over 50% of the people in this country believe in, but getting them to show up, and then vote - when everyone is in their ear telling them they are "helping the other one"- is something else.

I've personally seen a certain presidential candidates cell phone messages that read things like "Stop being so greedy, get out of the race, this is too important" etc etc etc.

Everyone claims they love democracy until you start making some noise. Then the haters start coming out of the woodwork with all of their big money backers and its back to square one the next year.

You are so full of shit. You nay say people who want to get good people into office - starting with getting rid of tea party extremists - you say it won't work getting good people into office -= and yet when asked if your alternative is looking for armed rebellion you go back to what other people already are saying = get good people into office.

I'm not talking about who to get rid of- thats you who seems obsessed with it. I'm talking about solutions. Tossing out one loser and replacing them with another does nothing.

Can getting good people into office possibly change this around? Yes, of course. Is waiting for the DNC to provide you with good candidates, or thinking they will allow real leaders who are about real radical change to get in via them... is that a feasible strategy? No, thats the game they have had you playing since you were in diapers.

I think we need to remember the difference between good vs effective. They will let all the pathetic well intention losers in that you want, parade them right in there. Another ripe crop of fresh minds to mold, to reassure "this is just how its done"...

If the people want to change things from within, they are going to have to create something from the outside and then go in. You can't just go in alone and hope to be successful, because that is the strategy that they want, the one that keeps that strategy going and going and going.

Most people whom are "effective" at leadership want nothing to do with this vile system that the people seem to love and cheer on, its why its so hard to not only find ones that are even remotely political active, but then convince them to put their lives on the line and run.

Right, and the same people with the money are still all there, and now we have essentially the same problem all over again, as every year that a couple more Repblicans are voted out, a few more corrupt Dems have been plugged into the fold.

Fyi I go through this with Republican supporters as well, they are just as ingrained in this philosophy.

That would have wrecked the thing from the start, as the views of everyone were waaaaaay too different to ever get any buy in on a political platform that deals with this system whatsoever. The very thing that brought everyone in was the avoidance of that. But I get the frustration on that.

Myself, I only work with 3rd parties these days, have sworn off Dems since about 08-09 and never have had any desire to hop in bed with the elephants. Things get very clear when you have high expectations and follow the details in this system. That being said, its frustrating as hell.

Something just happened on the House Floor that you should know about. Very late last night House Republicans quietly changed the standing rules of the House so that only the Majority Leader or his designee could bring up the bill in question for a vote. Sound familiar? The same tactic was used by the same people last October to shut down the government and keep it shut down. In other words, democracy has once again been suspended in the House of Representatives. SHARE this video if you're sick of the sneaky, dead-of-night rule changes that have helped define this Republican Congress as the most-closed, least-transparent Congress on record

and the good old democratic party - what are we supporting - the 2% - maybe 5% or is it also the 1% since that is for sure who funds the party. certainly it is not the bottom 80% - they can barely support themselves. so which way do we turn?

no i said they are both funded by the same `1% - i do not see the evidence that the dems are trying to help the middle class. they have been in power 14 years since 1992 and the middle class is disappearing. can you give me evidence?

thanks for the info but i do not really see why you sent that. could you send me some on funding for president and maybe for the senate also. if you are trying to score points like too many here i am not interested. i will agree that the dems are better than the gop. when i have voted for a mainstream candidate it has always been a dem. that said they suck. they are only slightly better than the gop (ok some of the real nuts jobs are way out there but they are actually helping the dems it seems). bill clinton presided over the decline of the middle class and so has obama - to say nothing of their killing of thousands all around the world

flip.... you said: ... "....i do not see the evidence that the dems are trying to help the middle class. they have been in power 14 years since 1992..."

the wikipedia link was to show you that the Gop has been in control for the majority of those years....

look... I agree there is much the dems are doing that I don't like... however... imo 99% of what the gop is doing is evil ...
imo... the koch bought gop is doingf everything they can to create a two class system ... (super rich & super poor) with no-one in between... this will in turn bankrupt the states ... for the majority of state income comes from the middle class... for the rich pay a fraction of the taxes....

and bankrupting the states is what the kochs want ... they want a corporate run country (fascism) ....

think about the bailout....we bailed out the banks (rich class) ... yet did nothing to bailout the middle class....
it was assumed that the rich class would then reinvest into the middle .... there is no economy without the majority of the people spending money... the dems have done everything they can to get money into the middle economy...which are basically job bills .... yet the congress blocks every bill presented... and keeps many, many from even being presented....

here are just a few recently blocked by the senate ... the congress blocks almost all of them....

also: about trying to get points.... my point tally was frozen 2-3 yrs ago... I asked for it... I do not believe in point tally for members... only for posts...

Bills Blocked by Republican Filibusters
Friday, November 22, 2013
Here is a list of bills that would have passed the Senate if it weren't for Republicans requiring a 60-vote threshold.

113th Congress:

Manchin-Toomey Background Checks

Vote: 54-46

Keep Student Loans Affordable Act of 2013

Vote: 51-49

Would keep the interest rate of subsidized federal student loans at 3.4% for another year

Student Loan Affordability Act

Vote: 51-46

Would keep the interest rate of subsidized federal student loans at 3.4% for two years.

Sequestration replacement

Vote: 51-49

Would postpone the sequester until Jan 2, 2014

Required millionaires to pay at least a 30% tax rate

112th Congress

Bring Jobs Home Act

Vote: 56-42

Would grant businesses a tax credit for eliminating a business outside the US and relocating it in the US

Would deny businesses a tax deduction for outsourcing expenses related to outsourcing a business

Small Business Jobs and Tax Relief Act

Vote: 53-44

Gives small businesses a tax credit if their 2012 payrolls were higher than their 2011 payrolls

Paycheck Fairness Act

Vote: 52-47

Requires employers to prove differences in pay are not gender-related

Would allow employees to discuss salaries without retaliation, and allows government to collect data on women workers to better evaluate the wage gap

DISCLOSE Act

Vote: 51-44; reconsidered 53-45

Requires corporations, super PACs, labor unions, and other groups to disclose donors who give in excess of $10,000 for political contributions

Paying a Fair Share Act of 2012

Vote: 51-45

Requires millionaires to pay a 30% minimum tax rate

Expresses the Sense of the Senate that tax reform should repeal unfair loopholes and expenditures and make sure the wealthiest taxpayers pay a fair share of taxes

first i would like to say that i am happy for a reasonable response - thanks. too much here is childish crap. i understand about most of this. you do realize that the dems could have eliminated the 60 vote requirement right? again i am not arguing that they are the same but they are too close for my liking. on the big issues there is almost no difference. look around the world and see what is happening. all through my life - from civil rights to vietnam to ending welfare as we know it the dems have disappointed. they are funded by the same people who rule the country and the world. we do not have to agree here. my wife is a democratic party official (very minor) and we have the same debate. i am tired of voting for the lessor of two evils - we need real change. that said if lizzie warren runs i will vote for her!

Flip... I agree ... the dems are being too pansy ass ... however because the gop is sooo corrupt the dems get away w/ it.... if more went after the gop... then the dems would be in the spot-light... and more would go after them... clumping them all in the same boat... makes it easier for both sides to get away with being shady & corrupt.... we need to be more aggressive imo... and aggressive with accuracy ... we need to be specific... who ... exactly is doing what

[ edit ]Yep - and currently - the gop is very openly against the population at large and just as openly in support of the very few ( .01% ) and corp(se)oRATions.

So easy choice = vote those bums out.

And like ya say - focus on the next most obvious assholes.

Right now - it - IS - like - it - has - NEVER - been before = ONE SOLID GROUP TRYING TO PUT THEIR FOOT ON THE BACK OF OUR NECKS AND PUSH. edit -> These encumbents must GO and their newbie/wannabes must be kept out of office.

Absolutely - and to get there - we need change - and to get there - right now - that means the shortest course to take - is - to remove all GOP from office and keep their even worse extremist wannabes out as well.

I've seen it - I haven't spent any time there. Even from the little that the public gets to see reported on in the lame stream media is plenty enough to show the prevalent cancer in government at this very point in time = GOP.

Well - blowing up the Drone control stations would help keep people from backing away from the harsh realities of war ( some what ) - but - right now - today - to get the apostles of war to back off would take putting them out on every front-line and patrol in enemy territory to experience 1st hand the reality of what they push - to make them strive against war.

i am sure we agree on almost all of this. what should be done and how we would like our country to behave. i have posted articles about the failings of obama and the dems mostly since, as you say the gop is so out there. also many here are providing plenty of info about koch bros etc. seems to me that what is important is that we agree on the big picture and try to figure out the best way to move forward. my congressman is very good so 2014 is a no brainer but 2016 will be interesting. one point i make to my wife (and she is not completely on board with it!) is that after 8 years of bush the country (this obviously very racist country) elected a black man who promised real change. maybe we need 4 or 8 more years of rand paul and we will get the government we deserve?? would we survive 8 years? also i am hoping that maybe the women rise up if they move harder on birth control - someone has to rise up!

honestly... I don't see how any party had influence on the birth of the internet... it was simply technology moving forward... however the gop lately has made strong effort to make it a class associated service... ie... providing faster speeds and access to those who can afford big money payments