Before I go any further I think that I need to make it clear I'm an enthusiastic supporter of Minyur R. and HHDL's position on abuse by gurus. Nothing I say should be interpreted to mean that I think somebody should stay in an unhealthy situation. The current discussion I'm trying to have with Malcolm is about the theoretical framework for guru yoga. That framework is designed around the ideal scenario where you guru actually is an enlightened Buddha.

Evidently there was a time when that was reliably the case.

I do not think this is a wise assumption.

Obviously these days those kinds of gurus are few and far between, if they have continued to exist at all.

It is the case that, as the Hevajra commentary Padmini cites the Approach to the Utimate:

Because of the power of the Kaliyuga, gurus have mixed qualities and faults,
there are none at all without misdeeds;
disciples should rely on those
whose qualities predominate, and who have been thoroughly investigated.

No need for a citation. If you think you should have pure perception of a criminal guru like the one I mentioned (i.e. murderer, rapist, pedophile, et al.) you are an idiot. Anyone who encourages you to think so is an idiot. Anyone who agrees with them is an idiot.

...in your opinion.

Not just in my opinion. As before.

Atisha states:

If one has an evil guru or an evil friend, one will be harmed by both.

Mokṣākaragupta mentions in the Dohakoṣapañjikā-nāma:

It is risky to consider evil gurus to be one's guru. Since one relies on such a one, the fault is that one begins to have evil views and evil behavior. One should avoid such gurus as one would a snake.

The different sūtras in accord with the emptiness
taught by the Sugata are definitive in meaning;
One can understand that all of those Dharmas in
which a sentient being, individual, or person are taught are provisional in meaning.

He was playing on the roof, and the staff slipped from his hands. It is not like Guru Rinpoche set out to murder the boy.

As for Yeshe Tsogyal, and the rest, when you were 16 in those days, you were a women, ready to be married.

I seem to remember that some of his incarnations killed whole tribes of Daka, burnt forests, dried out lakes and other nastiness...

"My religion is not deceiving myself."Jetsun Milarepa 1052-1135 CE

"Butchers, prostitutes, those guilty of the five most heinous crimes, outcasts, the underprivileged: all are utterly the substance of existence and nothing other than total bliss."The Supreme Source - The Kunjed Gyalpo
The Fundamental Tantra of Dzogchen Semde

The different sūtras in accord with the emptiness
taught by the Sugata are definitive in meaning;
One can understand that all of those Dharmas in
which a sentient being, individual, or person are taught are provisional in meaning.

In the Barchey Lamsel it states that Guru Rinpoche in his incarnation as Dukyi Shechen, while practicing in the Slate Mountain forest, hurled his "phurba of recitation" and burnt the sandalwood forest and dried up the lake. In his incarnation as Kalden Drendze he destroyed the teachings of the Bonpo. Give me some time and I'll find the bit about the tribe of Daka too...

"My religion is not deceiving myself."Jetsun Milarepa 1052-1135 CE

"Butchers, prostitutes, those guilty of the five most heinous crimes, outcasts, the underprivileged: all are utterly the substance of existence and nothing other than total bliss."The Supreme Source - The Kunjed Gyalpo
The Fundamental Tantra of Dzogchen Semde

In the Barchey Lamsel it states that Guru Rinpoche in his incarnation as Dukyi Shechen while practicing in the Slate Mountain forest hurled his "phurba of recitation" and burnt the sandalwood forest and dried up the lake.

Yes, because there were harmful nonbuddhists there, etc. This manifestation is called "Great Enemy of Māra."

In his incarnation as Kalden Drendze he destroyed the teachings of the Bonpo. Give me some time and I'll find the bit about the tribe of Daka too...

What do you mean by destroy? In the supplication it pretty clear that Bon declined because the King, etc., where placed in the Dharma.

The different sūtras in accord with the emptiness
taught by the Sugata are definitive in meaning;
One can understand that all of those Dharmas in
which a sentient being, individual, or person are taught are provisional in meaning.

In the 'Heart Essence of the Khandro' by Yongdzin Rinpoche, starting on page 148, you will find the Bonpo version of what happened. Phrases like, "set out to destroy the doctrines of Yungdrung Bon,...a time of devastation,.. Bon lamas, ministers and powerful noble people as well as ordinary folk were put to death or banished...property confiscated,... those who remained in Tibet were forcefully and sometimes brutally converted to the new religion, Indian Buddhism....gompas laid waste,... persecution of the Bonpos."

In the 'Heart Essence of the Khandro' by Yongdzin Rinpoche, starting on page 148, you will find the Bonpo version of what happened. Phrases like, "set out to destroy the doctrines of Yungdrung Bon,...a time of devastation,.. Bon lamas, ministers and powerful noble people as well as ordinary folk were put to death or banished...property confiscated,... those who remained in Tibet were forcefully and sometimes brutally converted to the new religion, Indian Buddhism....gompas laid waste,... persecution of the Bonpos."

Good read.

Sort of like what's happening to Muslims in Myanmar?

Contentment is the ultimate wealth;
Detachment is the final happiness. ~Sri Saraha

In the 'Heart Essence of the Khandro' by Yongdzin Rinpoche, starting on page 148, you will find the Bonpo version of what happened. Phrases like, "set out to destroy the doctrines of Yungdrung Bon,...a time of devastation,.. Bon lamas, ministers and powerful noble people as well as ordinary folk were put to death or banished...property confiscated,... those who remained in Tibet were forcefully and sometimes brutally converted to the new religion, Indian Buddhism....gompas laid waste,... persecution of the Bonpos."

Good read.

Sort of like what's happening to Muslims in Myanmar?

The charge is niot that there was a power struggle in Tibet between Tibetans who wanted to adopt Buddhism and those who dudn’t, the charge is that Guru Rinpoche was personally involved.

The different sūtras in accord with the emptiness
taught by the Sugata are definitive in meaning;
One can understand that all of those Dharmas in
which a sentient being, individual, or person are taught are provisional in meaning.

In the 'Heart Essence of the Khandro' by Yongdzin Rinpoche, starting on page 148, you will find the Bonpo version of what happened. Phrases like, "set out to destroy the doctrines of Yungdrung Bon,...a time of devastation,.. Bon lamas, ministers and powerful noble people as well as ordinary folk were put to death or banished...property confiscated,... those who remained in Tibet were forcefully and sometimes brutally converted to the new religion, Indian Buddhism....gompas laid waste,... persecution of the Bonpos."

Good read.

Sort of like what's happening to Muslims in Myanmar?

The charge is niot that there was a power struggle in Tibet between Tibetans who wanted to adopt Buddhism and those who dudn’t, the charge is that Guru Rinpoche was personally involved.

Right. I've been under the impression from what I've read that Guru Rinpoche's activities in Tibet were mainly subduing obstructing invisible beings and binding them under oath as protectors, along with his vast beneficial teaching efforts including concealing terma. The power struggle against the bonpo was more the King's department. Is that your take away?

Contentment is the ultimate wealth;
Detachment is the final happiness. ~Sri Saraha

The charge is niot that there was a power struggle in Tibet between Tibetans who wanted to adopt Buddhism and those who dudn’t, the charge is that Guru Rinpoche was personally involved.

Right. I've been under the impression from what I've read that Guru Rinpoche's activities in Tibet were mainly subduing obstructing invisible beings and binding them under oath as protectors, along with his vast beneficial teaching efforts including concealing terma. The power struggle against the bonpo was more the King's department. Is that your take away?

The different sūtras in accord with the emptiness
taught by the Sugata are definitive in meaning;
One can understand that all of those Dharmas in
which a sentient being, individual, or person are taught are provisional in meaning.

The different sūtras in accord with the emptiness
taught by the Sugata are definitive in meaning;
One can understand that all of those Dharmas in
which a sentient being, individual, or person are taught are provisional in meaning.

What do you mean by destroy? In the supplication it pretty clear that Bon declined because the King, etc., where placed in the Dharma.

I am quoting the translation of the Barchey Lamsel text. The word they use is "destroyed".

"My religion is not deceiving myself."Jetsun Milarepa 1052-1135 CE

"Butchers, prostitutes, those guilty of the five most heinous crimes, outcasts, the underprivileged: all are utterly the substance of existence and nothing other than total bliss."The Supreme Source - The Kunjed Gyalpo
The Fundamental Tantra of Dzogchen Semde

You are basically accusing Guru Rinpoche of being involved in a kind of ethnic cleansing. Do you really think that? Because if you do, I do not see how you can have faith in him.

You have faith in the fact that there can be a justified (tantric) murder and yet you cannot see how somebody can have faith in a (tantric) murderer? That's pretty strange...

"My religion is not deceiving myself."Jetsun Milarepa 1052-1135 CE

"Butchers, prostitutes, those guilty of the five most heinous crimes, outcasts, the underprivileged: all are utterly the substance of existence and nothing other than total bliss."The Supreme Source - The Kunjed Gyalpo
The Fundamental Tantra of Dzogchen Semde

You are basically accusing Guru Rinpoche of being involved in a kind of ethnic cleansing. I am quoting the translation of the Barchey Lamsel text. The word they use is "destroyed".

You mean this line? It is the only mention of Bon:

10) Having done the accomplishment at Samye Chimphu,
repelled negative conditions and bestowed siddhi,
you placed the king and ministers on the path of liberation,the teaching of the Bon’s demonic forms declined,
and the teaching of the precious immaculate dharmakāya
placed the fortunate on the stage of buddhahood.

gdon gzugs bon gyi bstan pa bsnubs.

The word in the text is bsnubs. It means either "med par gtong ba," "sent into nonexistence" or "nub par byed pa", "caused to decline."

It does not have the strong connotations of other Tibetan words, such as 'joms, to conquer, brlag pa, to crush.

The commentary by Dilgo Khyentse on this line states that the Bonpos were defeated in debate by Padmsambhava and Shantarakshita through citation and reasoning. They were then exiled by royal decree, and their teaching disappeared.

If you look at the broader history, this refers to a faction in the Tibetan court of Trisong Detsen that maintained connections to the overthrown Zhang Zhung kingdom whose power over Tibet had been shrugged off a century before when Srong Tsan Gampo engineered the assassination of King Ligmincha. "Bonpos" then are not the Bonpos we have today. And in other Kathang literature, we have clear examples of Padmasambhava interceding on behalf of some Bonpos whose practices did not involve animal and human sacrifice, so called "good Bonpos." So here, the so called "Bonpos" who were exiled were a specific political faction of Tibetans.

The different sūtras in accord with the emptiness
taught by the Sugata are definitive in meaning;
One can understand that all of those Dharmas in
which a sentient being, individual, or person are taught are provisional in meaning.

You are basically accusing Guru Rinpoche of being involved in a kind of ethnic cleansing. Do you really think that? Because if you do, I do not see how you can have faith in him.

You have faith in the fact that there can be a justified (tantric) murder and yet you cannot see how somebody can have faith in a (tantric) murderer? That's pretty strange...

You've yet to establish that Guru Rinpoche was a tantric murderer or that there is such a thing as tantric murder. Liberation is not murder. It's liberation.

And since we are talking about my other comment referring to Daesh fighters, eliminating them prevents them from engaging in further nonvirtues. As it is, those people are going to spend eons in lower realms for their crimes against sentient beings. Just to be clear, Daesh is a special case, like SS soldiers. There really is only one thing to be done with them. In general, however, I don't support wars.

The different sūtras in accord with the emptiness
taught by the Sugata are definitive in meaning;
One can understand that all of those Dharmas in
which a sentient being, individual, or person are taught are provisional in meaning.

You've yet to establish that Guru Rinpoche was a tantric murderer or that there is such a thing as tantric murder. Liberation is not murder. It's liberation.

A rose by any other name...

And since we are talking about my other comment referring to Daesh fighters, eliminating them prevents them from engaging in further nonvirtues.

Maybe in this lifetime, but the karmic imprint would... And we all know how karmic imprints are erased and purified, don't we kiddies? Not by death, that's for sure. Unless one is a YOLO Buddhist., then for you death does equal liberation.

"My religion is not deceiving myself."Jetsun Milarepa 1052-1135 CE

"Butchers, prostitutes, those guilty of the five most heinous crimes, outcasts, the underprivileged: all are utterly the substance of existence and nothing other than total bliss."The Supreme Source - The Kunjed Gyalpo
The Fundamental Tantra of Dzogchen Semde