scottie:You have a soul. Both my body and yours is naught but shadows and dust. But we have a soul. Where will your soul end up? There is a afterlife.

Consider the survey taken of people who died and came back. 4000 of them said they say heaven, hell, or both, as described in the Bible. Their bodies dead and inactive. They are not dreaming. They are not seeing things. Something else on the inside of them saw heaven/hell/both. And that is their soul. You can argue what you will, but you have a soul just as those who died and came back, and your soul is going somewhere:either heaven or hell. Choose this day who, you will serve. As for me and my house, we will serve the Lord. Whosoever calls on the name of the Lord shall be saved. Call on him.

Scottie, whether the membrane or the lysosome evolved first is not a difficult question to answer. Lysosomes are just membrane-enclosed vescicles with special degradative enzymes that bud off from the Golgi apparatus. The only thing that evolved here is the enzymes within the lysosomes.

Scottie, whether the membrane or the lysosome evolved first is not a difficult question to answer. Lysosomes are just membrane-enclosed vescicles with special degradative enzymes that bud off from the Golgi apparatus. The only thing that evolved here is the enzymes within the lysosomes.

This is NOT a chicken-or-egg scenario.

Lysosomes can contain more than three dozen enzymes for degrading the proteins, nucleic acids, etc.

Enzymes are proteins. Ribosomes which in themselves are proteins, make the enzymes, which are also proteins. The enzymes didn’t evolve they are made by the ribosome. A conundrum is it not?

The membrane that encloses these proteins is a completely different molecule, which as far as I am aware also contains embedded proteins.!!

So did the membrane evolve first to protect the cell from these enzmmes that would destroy it, or did the enzymes evolve first to digest the cells waste products.

Now jackbean states that the membrane “obviously” evolved first.

So my simple question was What is the force that would have selected for a situation (ie presence of enzymes) that had not yet come into existence? That is how evolution is supposed to work is it not?

It certainly could not be natural selection because natural selection cannot select for something that does not exist. Surely this is self evident.

Now you appear to be saying that the Golgi apparatus evolved first.But yours is yet another example of this self same conundrum.

What need is there for the Golgi apparatus to package and transport products to the various cellular locations if those systems didn’t already exist.

Can you not see why the cell as a complete unit is the basic form of life.Nothing is alive unless the cell exists. All these individual systems within the cell are in themselves inert.

man, you're so stupid, you cannot even imagine, that something is able to evolve from simple (only ribosyme, only lipid bilayer) into something complicated (ribosome, nowaday membrane).

There is nothing to discuss with you.

I'm able to assume that because it's quite obvious.I'm not arguing, that proteins are not made by ribosomes, but that this is not argument against evolution :-/ Are you really that stupid or just trying to make me look stupid, because you have no better arguments?

JackBean:Your insults have no place in the scientific discussion. I am with scottie in this: we are simply questioning the very far-stretched (to the point of impossibility) conjecture which sais that enzymes could have evolved with the membrane.

We are questioning whether the membrane could have even formed considering that it contains proteins made by the cell.

And we are questioning whether the golgi apparatus would have involved in the time frame suggested by evolution. This is considering that when it evolved, there would have been no use for it as there were no cellular locations for it to transport things to.

We have gone in this circle of question and answer, and you have not provided a viable, possible answer that is not far stretched or close to impossible. Or even if it is possible, it is self contradictory in the sequence of development and the fact that the enzymes would not be able to get inside the membrane, or the membrane within the cell wall.

I would assume scottie is not trying to make you look stupid, because neither am I. We are simply pointing out that evolution is quite impossible because it cannot provide a viable means of cell development.

If evolution cannot provide a sufficient, viable answer (which evolution cannot provide an answer), then the simple answer to this is that evolution is impossible. If the cell cannot develop under evolution, how can life develop? The answer is that it cannot develop under evolution.

The thing about evolution is that for it to be possible, all of these things must line up in a proper orientation and must be viable and somewhat reasonable and possible. The point is, that you may be able to argue one point, but the other points which you say are possible do not line up and are simply impossible and very far stretched.

When multiple events, far stretched in possibility, need to coordinate in their order and time of occurrence, then it makes the overall goal of all of these events lining up impossible.

Tomn wrote:The thing about evolution is that for it to be possible, all of these things must line up in a proper orientation and must be viable and somewhat reasonable and possible. The point is, that you may be able to argue one point, but the other points which you say are possible do not line up and are simply impossible and very far stretched.

When multiple events, far stretched in possibility, need to coordinate in their order and time of occurrence, then it makes the overall goal of all of these events lining up impossible.

That's wrong, actually the evolution is working by fixing previous mistakes. An outstanding example is the eye of mammals, where the light must pass through the nerves before it reaches retina. That's not much intelligent design

But you know what. I understand, why so many engineers are for ID, because only engineer can design the waste disposal system so close to the fun park