then why does the supposed god of the old testament, who is reflected in Jesus; repeatedly in a jealous rage; murder, harden, rape, and kill men, women and children.

He never does murder or rape. He ordered the deaths of people because it is his prerogative. Same thing with hardening. He hardens who he will harden and has mercy upon who he will have mercy.

And Jesus DID cause evil to occur.

Matthew 13:10-17And the disciples came, and said unto him, Why speakest thou unto them in parables? He answered and said unto them, Because it is given unto you to know the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven, but to them it is not GIVEN.

For whosoever hath, to him shall be given, and he shall have more abundance: but whosoever hath not, from him shall be taken away even that he hath. Therefore speak I to them in parables: because they seeing see not; and hearing they hear not, neither do they understand. And in them is fulfilled the prophecy of Esaias, which saith, By hearing ye shall hear, and shall not understand; and seeing ye shall see, and shall not perceive: For this people's heart is waxed gross, and their ears are dull of hearing, and their eyes they have closed; lest at any time they should see with their eyes and hear with their ears, and should understand with their heart, and should be converted, and I should heal them.

But blessed are your eyes, for they see: and your ears, for they hear. For verily I say unto you, That many prophets and righteous men have desired to see those things which ye see, and have not seen them; and to hear those things which ye hear, and have not heard them.

From Christ's words I can see that it was Christ's choice to either heal them or not. And he chose not. And for whatever reason you say, Christ had the power to heal who he wanted to heal, but chose NOT, because to them it was NOT GIVEN in order for the scripture to be fulfilled. It was given to them to kill him and fulfill the scriptures which determined his death.

Zeek

then why does the supposed god of the old testament, who is reflected in Jesus; repeatedly in a jealous rage; murder, harden, rape, and kill men, women and children.

He never does murder or rape. He ordered the deaths of people because it is his prerogative. Same thing with hardening. He hardens who he will harden and has mercy upon who he will have mercy.

And Jesus DID cause evil to occur.

Matthew 13:10-17And the disciples came, and said unto him, Why speakest thou unto them in parables? He answered and said unto them, Because it is given unto you to know the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven, but to them it is not GIVEN.

For whosoever hath, to him shall be given, and he shall have more abundance: but whosoever hath not, from him shall be taken away even that he hath. Therefore speak I to them in parables: because they seeing see not; and hearing they hear not, neither do they understand. And in them is fulfilled the prophecy of Esaias, which saith, By hearing ye shall hear, and shall not understand; and seeing ye shall see, and shall not perceive: For this people's heart is waxed gross, and their ears are dull of hearing, and their eyes they have closed; lest at any time they should see with their eyes and hear with their ears, and should understand with their heart, and should be converted, and I should heal them.

But blessed are your eyes, for they see: and your ears, for they hear. For verily I say unto you, That many prophets and righteous men have desired to see those things which ye see, and have not seen them; and to hear those things which ye hear, and have not heard them.

From Christ's words I can see that it was Christ's choice to either heal them or not. And he chose not. And for whatever reason you say, Christ had the power to heal who he wanted to heal, but chose NOT, because to them it was NOT GIVEN in order for the scripture to be fulfilled. It was given to them to kill him and fulfill the scriptures which determined his death.

well, imo; i no longer trust scriptures over my heart; they have been twisted and rewritten over the years to meet one's agenda;

so;

for now

i go with my heart.

Who knows, maybe my Abba will order the rape and murder of a loved one of mine, just to teach me a lesson regarding his purrogative; so that one day he will show me mercy.

I do know is that God did cause much suffering, whipping, beating and all sorts of other evils upon the early church that the "trial of their faith be more precious than gold." So in that I do see God causing suffering upon them so that they will reveal Christ in their walk. It is with much tribulation that we enter into the kingdom (Acts 14:22.)

But just to let you know, I don't have an agenda with you. Just saying what I see in the Bible is all. I believe what I believe not because I set out to WANT to believe it, but because it is what the Bible informs me, so I believe it.

Gilbert

then why does the supposed god of the old testament, who is reflected in Jesus; repeatedly in a jealous rage; murder, harden, rape, and kill men, women and children.

He never does murder or rape. He ordered the deaths of people because it is his prerogative. Same thing with hardening. He hardens who he will harden and has mercy upon who he will have mercy.

And Jesus DID cause evil to occur.

Matthew 13:10-17And the disciples came, and said unto him, Why speakest thou unto them in parables? He answered and said unto them, Because it is given unto you to know the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven, but to them it is not GIVEN.

For whosoever hath, to him shall be given, and he shall have more abundance: but whosoever hath not, from him shall be taken away even that he hath. Therefore speak I to them in parables: because they seeing see not; and hearing they hear not, neither do they understand. And in them is fulfilled the prophecy of Esaias, which saith, By hearing ye shall hear, and shall not understand; and seeing ye shall see, and shall not perceive: For this people's heart is waxed gross, and their ears are dull of hearing, and their eyes they have closed; lest at any time they should see with their eyes and hear with their ears, and should understand with their heart, and should be converted, and I should heal them.

But blessed are your eyes, for they see: and your ears, for they hear. For verily I say unto you, That many prophets and righteous men have desired to see those things which ye see, and have not seen them; and to hear those things which ye hear, and have not heard them.

From Christ's words I can see that it was Christ's choice to either heal them or not. And he chose not. And for whatever reason you say, Christ had the power to heal who he wanted to heal, but chose NOT, because to them it was NOT GIVEN in order for the scripture to be fulfilled. It was given to them to kill him and fulfill the scriptures which determined his death.

Oh, an' 'bout yer accusation: "And Jesus DID cause evil to occur".You apparently base this on the lame assumption that it is Jesus Who "takes away even that he hath"; regardless of the fact that the Bible clearly states that it is the evil one who is pointedly described as the thief and murderer.

An' let's take a peek at that additional attribute you carelessly assigned to Jesus: the 'hardening of a person's heart'.

I'm sure you're aware of the biblical story of the Pharaoh and the matter of his heart being 'hardened'.I can only suppose you would say this too was somehow an act of God.

This Pharaoh, however, had the inclination of heart of the evil one. He (the Pharaoh) hardened his heart, despite the many signs and wonders which confirmed Moses' demand to let the people go. Then the Lord God even used the enemy's own plans to carry out His counsel. We can clearly see that the Lord made Leviathan to be his plaything, using his devices to bring forth good, (Ps 104:26). The same thing can be seen when in its hatred the Jewish people demanded Jesus' crucifixion. Their disobedience meant mercy for the world.

Pharaoh, too, could have decided to help the chosen people. Then Moses would have been able to bless him, just as Jacob blessed one of his predecessors. The pharaoh of Joseph showed clear insight into the character of the man "in whom was the Spirit of God", (Gen 41:38). He offered Jacob's family land in the best part of the country.

The pharaoh of the oppression also knew the will of God for the people of Israel. He knew he was dealing with a God much stronger and greater than his own gods. God had revealed Himself to him in impressive ways taking away from him all possibility of excuse. But pharaoh refused to listen, and then the powers of darkness revealed themselves in him: his heart was hardened.

God could have extinguished the pharaoh and his people in a moment, as it says: 'For by now I could have put forth my hand and struck you and your people with pestilence, and you would have been cut off from the earth; but for this purpose I have let you live, to show my power, so that my name may be declared throughout all the earth' (Ex 9:15,16). God allowed him to continue, so that the power of the evil spirits would be manifested in him to the highest possible extent. Then God's mercy in the salvation of his people would also shine forth most radiantly.

When pharaoh refused to oblige God's people, God abandoned him, in the same way as He gave up the Gentiles in the lusts of their hearts to impurity, to the dishonoring of their bodies among themselves (1:24).

The powers of the unseen world (in strictly Old Testament terms: God) hardened pharaoh's heart: it became unrelenting, rigid, heavy and hard; it was condemned to go its own way. In a similar way Psalm 81 mentions the fate of the stubborn and complaining people of Israel: 'Israel would have none of me. So I gave them over to their stubborn hearts, to follow their own counsels' (verses 12,13).

The 'hardening' you speak of can be compared to the rocky soil of that popular parable. The rocky soil is an image of a person who in his heart are dark rocks, which are symbols of the hardness and pressure of the enemy influencing him. He has no power to do the things he wants and is pressed to do those he hates. In certain parts of his life he is a prisoner, overpowered by the darkness.

Revelation speaks about the days of bitterness and envy. Many harden their hearts, as the people of Israel once did at Massah and Meribah in the desert. So, we are not surprised that in our days the signs of the times already show the effects of the star Wormwood, Rev 8:10-11.

Revelation 16:8-9 speaks about a people who do not repent or have a contrite heart, as once the king of Nineveh and his people had. There is no fasting, no repentance, no crying out to God; they have no insight into the true nature of their situation. They harden their hearts as Pharaoh did. They blaspheme and curse God: "They will pass through the land, greatly distressed and hungry; and when they are hungry, they will be enraged and will curse their king and their God, and turn their faces upward; and they will look to the earth, but behold, distress and darkness, the gloom of anguish; and they will be thrust into thick darkness" (Isaiah 8:21-22).

Hopefully this helps you understand things a bit better than what you have testified to here.

Oh, an' 'bout yer accusation: "And Jesus DID cause evil to occur".You apparently base this on the lame assumption that it is Jesus Who "takes away even that he hath"; regardless of the fact that the Bible clearly states that it is the evil one who is pointedly described as the thief and murderer.

Jesus caused evil to occur by choosing NOT to heal the ones that killed him. Them committing murder upon Christ could have been abated if Christ had chosen to heal them. But that wasn't God's will.

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Pharaoh, too, could have decided to help the chosen people.

No he couldn't have. God caused Pharaoh to harden Pharaohs' heart.

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The pharaoh of the oppression also knew the will of God for the people of Israel. He knew he was dealing with a God much stronger and greater than his own gods. God had revealed Himself to him in impressive ways taking away from him all possibility of excuse. But pharaoh refused to listen, and then the powers of darkness revealed themselves in him: his heart was hardened.

Which the Bible clearly said that God did.

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God could have extinguished the pharaoh and his people in a moment, as it says: 'For by now I could have put forth my hand and struck you and your people with pestilence, and you would have been cut off from the earth; but for this purpose I have let you live, to show my power, so that my name may be declared throughout all the earth' (Ex 9:15,16). God allowed him to continue

And if God had not allowed him to continue, none of it would have had to happen. Pharaoh continued because God hardened his heart.

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The powers of the unseen world (in strictly Old Testament terms: God) hardened pharaoh's heart: it became unrelenting, rigid, heavy and hard; it was condemned to go its own way.

No, God hardened his heart, not the powers of darkness or anything else but GOD himself according to his purpose. These things are clearly stated.

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Revelation speaks about the days of bitterness and envy. Many harden their hearts, as the people of Israel once did at Massah and Meribah in the desert. So, we are not surprised that in our days the signs of the times already show the effects of the star Wormwood, Rev 8:10-11.

Revelation 16:8-9 speaks about a people who do not repent or have a contrite heart, as once the king of Nineveh and his people had. There is no fasting, no repentance, no crying out to God; they have no insight into the true nature of their situation. They harden their hearts as Pharaoh did. They blaspheme and curse God: "They will pass through the land, greatly distressed and hungry; and when they are hungry, they will be enraged and will curse their king and their God, and turn their faces upward; and they will look to the earth, but behold, distress and darkness, the gloom of anguish; and they will be thrust into thick darkness" (Isaiah 8:21-22).

Hopefully this helps you understand things a bit better than what you have testified to here.

Revelation 17:16-18And the ten horns which thou sawest upon the beast, these shall hate the whore, and shall make her desolate and naked, and shall eat her flesh, and burn her with fire. For God hath put in their hearts to fulfil his will, and to agree, and give their kingdom unto the beast, until the words of God shall be fulfilled.

2Co 4:4 In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them. [/b]

2 Thess 2:11For this reason God sends them a powerful delusion so that they will believe the lie

God sends them a powerful delusion ...after what? for what reason?

9The coming of the lawless one is by the activity of Satan with all power and false signs and wonders, 10and with all wicked deception for those who are perishing, because they refused to love the truth and so be saved.

You see, the point is that rather than healing them of their wickedness and persisting in healing even though they resist, God sends them strong delusion and they believe a lie, and are therefore turned over to wickedness by God's cause.

If anyone is evil, then it shows that God has chosen not to exert his awesome power in healing them of their evil, until he decides..

God has the power to do ANYTHING! If someone is being raped or killed or whatever else you want to bring up, God certainly has the authority and power to STOP it, yet he does not. The fact that you say he doesn't ACTUALLY do it, does not change the fact that he does not choose to stop it.

So what? He sends them strong delusion so that they believe a lie. Believing a lie and continuing to believe one is God's cause, regardless of why.

So what? It must mean something, don't you think? Not so they believe a lie, so that they continue to believe the lie they were already believing [because their hearts are dark and they did not love the truth].

We see this in other places, too--They are reaping what they sowed--

11And the LORD said to Moses, "How long will this people despise me? And how long will they not believe in me, in spite of all the signs that I have done among them?

26And the LORD spoke to Moses and to Aaron, saying, 27"How long shall this wicked congregation grumble against me? I have heard the grumblings of the people of Israel, which they grumble against me. 28Say to them, 'As I live, declares the LORD, what you have said in my hearing I will do to you: 29 your dead bodies shall fall in this wilderness, and of all your number, listed in the census from twenty years old and upward, who have grumbled against me, 30not one shall come into the land where I swore that I would make you dwell, except Caleb the son of Jephunneh and Joshua the son of Nun. 31 But your little ones, who you said would become a prey, I will bring in, and they shall know the land that you have rejected. 32But as for you, your dead bodies shall fall in this wilderness. 33And your children shall be shepherds in the wilderness forty years and shall suffer for your faithlessness, until the last of your dead bodies lies in the wilderness. 34 According to the number of the days in which you spied out the land, forty days, a year for each day, you shall bear your iniquity forty years, and you shall know my displeasure.' 35 I, the LORD, have spoken. Surely this will I do to all this wicked congregation who are gathered together against me: in this wilderness they shall come to a full end, and there they shall die."

Oh, an' 'bout yer accusation: "And Jesus DID cause evil to occur".You apparently base this on the lame assumption that it is Jesus Who "takes away even that he hath"; regardless of the fact that the Bible clearly states that it is the evil one who is pointedly described as the thief and murderer.

Jesus caused evil to occur by choosing NOT to heal the ones that killed him. Them committing murder upon Christ could have been abated if Christ had chosen to heal them. But that wasn't God's will.

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Pharaoh, too, could have decided to help the chosen people.

No he couldn't have. God caused Pharaoh to harden Pharaohs' heart.

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The pharaoh of the oppression also knew the will of God for the people of Israel. He knew he was dealing with a God much stronger and greater than his own gods. God had revealed Himself to him in impressive ways taking away from him all possibility of excuse. But pharaoh refused to listen, and then the powers of darkness revealed themselves in him: his heart was hardened.

Which the Bible clearly said that God did.

Quote

God could have extinguished the pharaoh and his people in a moment, as it says: 'For by now I could have put forth my hand and struck you and your people with pestilence, and you would have been cut off from the earth; but for this purpose I have let you live, to show my power, so that my name may be declared throughout all the earth' (Ex 9:15,16). God allowed him to continue

And if God had not allowed him to continue, none of it would have had to happen. Pharaoh continued because God hardened his heart.

Quote

The powers of the unseen world (in strictly Old Testament terms: God) hardened pharaoh's heart: it became unrelenting, rigid, heavy and hard; it was condemned to go its own way.

No, God hardened his heart, not the powers of darkness or anything else but GOD himself according to his purpose. These things are clearly stated.

Quote

Revelation speaks about the days of bitterness and envy. Many harden their hearts, as the people of Israel once did at Massah and Meribah in the desert. So, we are not surprised that in our days the signs of the times already show the effects of the star Wormwood, Rev 8:10-11.

Revelation 16:8-9 speaks about a people who do not repent or have a contrite heart, as once the king of Nineveh and his people had. There is no fasting, no repentance, no crying out to God; they have no insight into the true nature of their situation. They harden their hearts as Pharaoh did. They blaspheme and curse God: "They will pass through the land, greatly distressed and hungry; and when they are hungry, they will be enraged and will curse their king and their God, and turn their faces upward; and they will look to the earth, but behold, distress and darkness, the gloom of anguish; and they will be thrust into thick darkness" (Isaiah 8:21-22).

Hopefully this helps you understand things a bit better than what you have testified to here.

Revelation 17:16-18And the ten horns which thou sawest upon the beast, these shall hate the whore, and shall make her desolate and naked, and shall eat her flesh, and burn her with fire. For God hath put in their hearts to fulfil his will, and to agree, and give their kingdom unto the beast, until the words of God shall be fulfilled.

Hey guys.. just a quick little... ... to say...We may disagree on stuff... but we are still brothers and sisters who will all one day be united once and for all and will know what the truth is.

so... y'know..in the meantime.let's just remember that while we're discussing ok?I know this is a hot topic.But I don't know..I just love you guys.that's all.

We've gotten so used to dealing with cogleechristian10, I'd hate to see that start to seep into our little family here.

ok, I'll shut up now..carry on.

Logged

"I knelt to drink,And knew that I was on the brinkOf endless joy. And everywhereI turned I saw a wonder there."

If I speak in the tongues of men and of angels, but have not love, I am a noisy gong or a clanging cymbal. And if I have prophetic powers, and understand all mysteries and all knowledge, and if I have all faith, so as to remove mountains, but have not love, I am nothing. If I give away all I have, and if I deliver up my body to be burned, but have not love, I gain nothing.

So what? It must mean something, don't you think? Not so they believe a lie, so that they continue to believe the lie they were already believing [because their hearts are dark and they did not love the truth].

Exactly. So rather than open their eyes and heal their wickedness, which is in his power to do, God sends them a strong delusion SO THAT they believe a lie.

That is the OPPOSITE of healing them. Actually it isn't, just not through means that we would find tasteful. They will be healed in the manner of the Prodigal Son, but not without doing evil as a result of constraint to a strong delusion sent by God. If any of us had God's power, we would probably stop the war, stop the murder, stop the rape, stop the genocide....yet God allows it to continue. If a child is murdered, God allows it to happen though he has the power to stop it. Would you watch that happen and not act to stop it? Then why doesn't God?

It doesn't matter who you or I say is the root cause. The fact of the matter is that God himself exerts a choice to allow evil to continue without stopping it. That is a CAUSAL choice. It is a choice with consequences that many people would not be comfortable with. But it is still true.

God has the power to do ANYTHING! If someone is being raped or killed or whatever else you want to bring up, God certainly has the authority and power to STOP it, yet he does not. The fact that you say he doesn't ACTUALLY do it, does not change the fact that he does not choose to stop it.

You are making some pretty powerful assumptions here. What are they based on?

When Jesus was healing people, he always made them state their request. A blind man calls out to him and he says, What do you want? It should be obvious what the blind man wants in the context of a healer, but Jesus makes him say it.

Then, when they are healed, he tells them, Your faith healed you.

So there is some principle at work here that you are ignoring, that seems to, for want of a better way to put it, tie God's hands.

God has the power to do ANYTHING! If someone is being raped or killed or whatever else you want to bring up, God certainly has the authority and power to STOP it, yet he does not. The fact that you say he doesn't ACTUALLY do it, does not change the fact that he does not choose to stop it.

You are making some pretty powerful assumptions here. What are they based on?

They aren't based on anything but what the Scripture says. Concerning salvation, with God all things are possible, as the scripture says. So I can marry such a statement with other scriptures to know that Jesus wasn't actually dependent on man's faith. He was showing how he would use faith to bring the Spirit, which would bring the TRUE healing, not physical but internal, spiritual: conversion.

Gilbert

Hey guys.. just a quick little... ... to say...We may disagree on stuff... but we are still brothers and sisters who will all one day be united once and for all and will know what the truth is.

so... y'know..in the meantime.let's just remember that while we're discussing ok?I know this is a hot topic.But I don't know..I just love you guys.that's all.

We've gotten so used to dealing with cogleechristian10, I'd hate to see that start to seep into our little family here.

ok, I'll shut up now..carry on.

Absolutely. I have purposefully kept my words away from personal attacks. Just saying what I believe.

Hi! SparrowYeah, prior my seeing this Post of yours, I had already suggested we push the 'Easy Button' and instead continue on discussing those things which we might be in agreement.I really admire the guy because he wasn't discourteous 'er anything; this when I myself was coming so close to losin' it myself. Thanks for your kind advice.

The true way to "tie God's hands" is to suggest that God does not have the power to heal unless man first allows it. That puts God in a helpless position to stop the crime he sees.

So either God is helpless to save whoever he wants from sin (even though the Bible says that with God ALL THINGS ARE POSSIBLE)Or, God is indeed powerful enough to save everyone from sin whenever he wants, but chooses not to in the immediate time.

ok cool. I normally don't post stuff like that... I just wanted to make sure we didn't all start to get crazy.I know I'm guilty of it in the past. Maybe that's why I was seeing uh... warning signs or something? (so basically a reminder for myself as much as anyone.)

Thanks for not getting annoyed at my post you guys.

Logged

"I knelt to drink,And knew that I was on the brinkOf endless joy. And everywhereI turned I saw a wonder there."

If I speak in the tongues of men and of angels, but have not love, I am a noisy gong or a clanging cymbal. And if I have prophetic powers, and understand all mysteries and all knowledge, and if I have all faith, so as to remove mountains, but have not love, I am nothing. If I give away all I have, and if I deliver up my body to be burned, but have not love, I gain nothing.