I was still in prison when Katrina hit New Orleans. Some idiot made a comment about God sending the hurricane to punish the city for its sins. They cliqued on him quick. Now because of incidents like this and others, I believe in non-violence. However, there is something to be said for knowing there could be bad consequences if you say something so stupid. Out here in the free world people with an audience say stupid things all day and are beloved. What a strange world.

Kris

LOL! That’s good and really illustrates how ridiculous the anti-LGBT rhetoric is. Funny that the Bible Belt is actually the area of the U.S. that has the most hurricane and tornado activity.

VanPastorMan

PrayerPunk I was dismayed at those comments too. What I’d like to ask them is why did Joplin Missouri get destroyed a few years back? I’ve never heard a phrase like, “whatever happens in Joplin stays in Joplin.” As far as the gay issue, I believe homosexuality is a sin, but it’s not the only sin. To be honest gays probably would have more against me for saying this, than I do against them. I hold no ill will towards any of my fellow sinners. We have all sinned and have fallen short of the glory of God, and all of us need to turn from all our sins and trust in Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of sins.

Gary

Only a perverse god would create a man or woman homosexual and also make the condition they were created with by no choice of their own…a sin.

at the bottom of my letters there is an unsubscribe link. you will have to do that.

Gary

Source Steve.

Gary

Having trouble finding the scripture reference Steve? You placed quotes around what you claimed were the words of Jesus. I would simply like to know where you got your quote from so we may examine the statement.

Gary

For the record everyone. There is no record of Jesus ever making the statement “Everyone is a liar”.

Barry House

lol. Steve, WB, God has a preference for America in this election. He’s voting for bothe Romney and Obama. He’s voting against democrats, republicans, and independents. Think about it. God in appearance to us in that regard won’t get what he desires but in actuality he will. ultimately…….God is not perverse. God is always right, but that is not his goal. The homosexuality question and answer is old. its moldy its so old. Education and understanding is rare and at a steep premium it seems when it comes to addressing this very simple subject of gays and lesbians, same sex marriage etc. I’m fairly sure very few fundamental Christians know how to properly address this issue and as for those who don’t really know God in a personal way…..What could one say that would persuade or dissuade them in such matters?

Barry House

Let me ask a question. What does God say in this regard, to this issue. And in what tone?

Gary

Barry…I’m guessing, based on your question, that you believe you know what God says on this issue.

Barry House

I believe everyone who’s commented including the nakedpastor knows God’s view. Because of the things we see and experience, because at times we have a bad experience with those who proport to be from God or because we cannot reconcile what we know to be God’s view and its contrarity to our strong will and desire we get ‘stuck’ and unable to proceed. When trust is established between any individual and God the individuals eyes and heart are open and the ability to proceed effectively becomes for once obvious and easy. Remember the verse “Take my yolk upon you and learn from me”. Jesus sympathizes and even empathizes to a degree “tempted likewise as we were” but often we want Jesus but we are not letting go of that which he in part died so we could be free from, mostly our mindset to hold on to our personal prerogative and agenda. That is the world’s problem and it is a problem within the church as well. Whether a veteran Christian or someone who’s looking to come into Christ’s freedom, the spirit of the publican from Luke 18:13-14 who came to jesus beating his chest crying “Be merciful to me a sinner” is the only attitude and spirit God can work with. Anyone who does not know or understand or humbly accept this continues to move about in life having moments of brief happiness here and there but are generally tossed to and fro, battling in their hearts and minds until the such things of God become real TO THEM.

What a wonderfully rambling non-answer Barry. I especially like the silly premise that we all really know God’s view (which must of course mirror your own) followed by a long diatribe attempting to equate any other view than the one which you promote (whatever that is since you are unwilling to state it plainly) with our own lack of “trust”, unwillingness to “learn” from Jesus, our own “personal agendas”, lack of humility, or even our own inability to know the “things of God” in a “real” way.

My God man…listen to yourself. I don’t think I have ever seen so many insults hurled at those who disagree in such a short space of one paragraph.

How about you start by telling us what YOU believe and leave the flaming insults out of it.

Barry House

I believe that the christian walk is the surrendering of our lives to God and learning to walk in submission to him. He is not a dictator but as we are willing he shows us how to live in humility among other things. Even the most godly annoited and effective soul will have seasons of weakness and disposition/sin but as I said we continue on as He leads. …..When I began spending time alone with God I did like many, I sought a love and acceptance that the church wasn’t able and could never give. It took a while but the more spent alone with God the more the walls of protection I had built internally came down. God and I had begun building a relationship of trust. Over time He revealed many things, some big, some small things that I had to let go of namely my grudge against some local catholic kids that bullied me to tears often as a kid because of my faith. These things I would never have thought to address on my own except that he revealed in to me in prayer and also mapped out how I was to address it. This solution was unconvention for me as a shotgun would have been my first thought. But his ways are higher and because I had now developed a deep relationship with God I was able to just let go, love these guys, even hang out with them and operate as though the sad events had never occurred.

This rambling I apologize for but I’ve read lots and what ‘appears’ (forgive me for presumming) is blogs and pics that don’t merely ask us as a church to address our attitude and tone towards immorality but also possibly compromise and accept that which scripture and godly revelation does not permit compromising on morally. Please clarify this for me if I am wrong. And if I am wrong I sincerely apologize.

My wholehearted belief based on scripture and prayerful revelation is the church as directed by God is to be setting a table spiritually speaking where all can come to a place in our hearts where we can meet with God ourselves personally in prayer and have his healing power applied to fully heal all hurts and scars of the past and present and then become empowered by Him to move on victoriously. For leaders to operate autocratically as that voice for God is unfounded.

Rambling maybe, but necessary

Gary

Barry…this is a simple and direct question. Please provide a simple and direct answer.

What is God’s view that you stated all of us already “know”?

Barry House

His view on everything from cussing and swearing, lust, use of drugs, to same-sex marriage to jealousy to malace to abortion to gossip etc, etc. But as I continue to say, laying all things down take on Jesus yolk and walk with him and learn from him.

Gary

“But as I continue to say, laying all things down take on Jesus yolk and walk with him and learn from him.”

I have been “walk”ing “with him” since I was a young child. I feel more connected with Him than I ever have in my life.

As for your list…I believe with maturity we come to a point of realizing that all these things mean nothing outside of when they bring harm to another.

WOW! You guys are unbelieveable. I think you’re just razzing me for joke’s sake. The works of the flesh…..which fall to the side as we mature in our walk with Christ and with the maturity we begin to display more of the gifts of the spirit. I’m sure you guys know all this stuff as I do. My experience boid of ‘church’ influence, just spending time with over the years with a passion to know him in a more personal way. I found I became very sensitive to the needs and feelings of those around. I found myself eager to be involved in helping my pastor secure property for low-income housing and transitional housing, using our church facility to provide a shelter from the frigid cold of GP winters. What I’m saying is that as I made time daily alone with God, just laying prosrate on my bedroom enjoying his presence before him he began to work on me on my most personal issues and at the same time moved the zeal I had for sports and recreation to a zeal to help others on a personal and corporate level. He really cleaned me out and that wasn’t really my agenda. I just wanted to set time aside to enjoy his presence. It is there over time also that God has revealed his will for everyone. No cookie cutter stuff just how he designed us and to over time trust him more and walk into it. Is this still confusing?

It is clear that you have devoted much of your life to the pursuit of piety. Though you may develop much self discipline and an obvious sense of pride as displayed in your apparent great need to repeatedly proclaim your humility, it is my sincerest belief that your pursuits draw you away from discovering the true nature of God…not closer.

Barry House

Sorry Garry but you’ve lost me completely. My pursuits prior to what I described most definitely drew me away from God and certainly taxed my relationships with those closest to me. Don’t let my description of my devotional practice delude or confuse you. The things I did with my time prior to making time for God was anything worth repeating. The changes were very real. The pain of hurts, the bondages of internal struggles and secrets released. I couldn’t do it but He (Jesus) could, and did. Sorry Gary but this isn’t piety, its the real gospel in action void of any agenda other than to know God in a real and personal way. Remember the publican from Luke 18? Well, I that was me, that was what I needed. Maybe you’ve never needed that but I certainly did. I’ve no humility that I know of but I’m sure you’d agree that the presence of God does something very profound for those who never have never experienced it in a very real way prior. Living daily in that knowledge really does change our lives. I don’t think you can be prideful about such a thing for which you cannot take credit for in any way. Millions experience though while millions more go through life seldom if ever experiencing such. Again sorry if I lack clarity.

There is no lack of clarity Barry…I hear you loud and clear. I am pretty sure you understand me as well.

Barry House

Excellent. And yes lol, I am reasonably certain now I understand where you are coming from. You never really shared any of your experiences or revelations from the heart of God as it pertained to the subject but I think I’ve kinda got where you’re coming from. God is good and just and perfect. As scripture says “I’m sure He who has started a good work in us will be faithful in following it through to completion”.
Hope this was and will be of some encouragement to any who have or may happen along this thread. Very enjoyable exchange. Good chatting with you.

Gary

No I had hoped you clearly understood me…perhaps that was in error.

Barry you came in and rather boldly declared we all knew what God thinks about several issues. With a rather condescending tone you implied that we obviously know several things to be the way you believe them to be.

Actually Barry NOTHING could be further from the truth. I believe that God is NOT against homosexuality. I believe God does not give the slightest DAMN whether we cuss or not save for when we are hurting another. I believe God has no issues with same sex marriage. I also believe anyone who declares to speak for God in issues such as these has not really begun to understand God.

Barry House

I get you Gary. Hitchens and Dawkins would agree totally with you. For you and I however, We’ll simply agree to disagree on these matters. Taking a stand on an issue no matter how right doesn’t really prove anything nor accomplish anything. My only comment about tht perceived do’s and don’ts was that I found it odd/interesting that my language like my bitterness and other mandacities seems to disappear as I spent more time with God though those things weren’t my goal at all. It was a product of letting go of my ‘god’given right to be mad at the world. And boy was I angry, violently so. At any rate, Folks are ultimately going to do what they want so love them and respect them however much you disagree and do so with the love the Lord as shown you. But as I said the walking with God is the point not seeking approval for our agenda and perogative, to press God to approve of our current state. I’m not referring to the gay issue but any issue. Letting go is the first step.

Performance is an old religious perception and hardly accurate. Self disciplining of one’s will is another tough and unnecessary plight. Surrendering however is the only answer. Letting it go is what works. We need to let go of our will and the expectations others place on us needs to go with it for God’s perfect will for us to be revealed in our lives. So cuss if you will and so forth and so on however you choose to live thats not my point. I vented the first 25 years of my life loud and long, sometimes with my fists and it wasn’t pretty but even if you live a most ‘pictureque’ life with the approval of the most controlling religious folks and you are happy doing so you can still be very lost. This is my point ultimately. Time with Him is the only remedy for all of us. As I said, God invites all of us “If you seek him you will find him” but if finding a few individuals who think likewise as I do is all I desire then have at it and God bless but in the end truth is truth and peace is peace.

Gary

“but in the end truth is truth and peace is peace.”

What is truth Barry? And how do you know? Obviously you are totally convinced you know it. And even to the point of repeatedly telling us we do too on one issue or another. But the inescapable reality is that “Time with Him” leads many down a very different path than the one you declare believe becomes obvious to those who seek Him.

Perhaps I have not sought Him earnestly enough, spent enough time “prostate on the floor” soaking in His presence since I do not believe as you do. Obviously you are confidant that if I would simply spend more time seeking, and letting go, I would be enlightened with the same conclusions you have arrived at.

BTW – I am in no way aligned with the thinking of either Hitchens or Dawkins. But I am not surprised your mind jumped to this false conclusion. You have a very closed mind about many things. You are quick to provide a wealth of answers and smugly declare they are truth and all who seek will see them as such. But as I read your comments I am forced to conclude that you need to spend much more time pondering the questions.

BW

I am curious about that Barry…why DID you align Gary with atheists? It almost seems that you are saying if one doesn’t believe as you then one must not believe at all.

Barry House

In regards to Dawkins and Hitchens I wasn’t referring to their philosophy on God’s existence.

Time spent with God is less about conclusions and views one comes to and the building a greater knowledge of who He is, trusting Him in a greater way and thus leting our views and agendas go, then following as he leads.

We all have dispositions. Some we are born in, some as a product of our enviroment and circumstances we have been exposed to or victims of.

When we come to God we come as Abraham did or the publican I mentioned in Luke, then we proceed from there after that point without agenda.

At this point I saw that always had an hidden agenda I hadn’t even realized until I spent more time with God. Its a little scary to let go and say I’ll walk as you direct asking nothing in return. I’m not pius but humbled by his patience. Today I know peace and freedom such as I never have and I didn’t take on any extreme left or right political or social cause. I’m simply looking to Him and walking on.

As I said, nothing pius or religious here. For most of my life I worked then watch tv or played sports with all my spare time, socializing, doing as I chose, typical. When I started making time to challenge the ‘whatever there was out there’ to show He or it was real and that I was actually cared about in some relevant way. I got answers, big time.

Jesus chose twelve disciples, 11 teenagers around 18 or 19 and John of whom was 20 or 21. They all had dispositions. Jesus didn’t beat them over the head with law and doctrine (which has its place). Jesus said “come and follow me”. For three years they did that. As they walked and watched and began to participate over time they became less like they were and more like him. They saw more of what was around them having been jarred from their own little world and ‘views’. They also saw how to make a difference. In scripture I don’t see any protests or marches for or against anything. Today everything thing has become a social and political issue. Jesus quietly goes about his agenda has led by His father, and leads 12 others likewise affecting hundreds of others. Jesus felt church was extremely important, not as a place to present political platforms but as a place for prayer, a place to put one’s agenda (yolk/personal perogative and ‘wish’ list) aside and seek to take on his father’s agenda (Yolk). He promised it would be light and easy and there we would find rest for our souls. My experience with this having tested it is, he’s right.

Long babble I know but at any rate thats a snap shot of where I was and where I am and am headed.

Gary

Barry you really shy away from answering any hard questions don’t you? And as for your side step as to why you associated me with Dawkins and Hitchins, I can find no other reply than bullshit. That is exactly what you meant.

I would love for your source for your claims of the ages of the disciples. We both know there is no reference to such in scripture and your statements are based on pure conjecture. Interestingly enough you still presented them as fact.

Look Barry I think it is wonderful that you have a deeply satisfying relationship with God. In fact my questions to you have never been focused on that. It is wonderful. I get it. What I DO NOT get is your evasiveness over the plain questions you have been repeatedly asked starting with what it is that you stated we all knew. Obviously I have also challenged your views pertaining to the list of things you referred to as works of the flesh. You spend a lot of time talking about how much God has purified you, yet the level of condescension in many of your posts (early ones in this thread in particular) is very much devoid of this fruit of the spirit you proclaim. Your continued insistence on returning to the theme of how spiritual you have become, as a shield from engaging in substantive dialogue, leaves me wondering if there is fear in your heart, fear of facing the tough questions, because you are not sure you would like the answers you would find.

Gary

By the way Barry…I very much believe I am following where God is leading me. Yet…I find myself on a very different path than the one you trod.

Think about it!!

Barry House

Hmmm Nope! I meant my clarification with regards to Hitchens and dawkins exactly as I stated. I was crystal clear but am not offended by your constant assumptions and judgements of me.

As for spiritual, everything is spiritual, everything. Enviroment and circumstances dictate much. Life’s experiences both good and bad affect our spirituality. The seeking and then eventual allowance for God to reveal himself empowers us despite ever-changing enviroments and experience. He is the constant.

I believe based on our exchange that you feel conviction in some avenue for whatever reason thus your constant lashings out without any real contribution of food for thought for your position. Your anger and lashings out show a spirit of rebelion, resistence to truth, and pride. Hitchens and Dawkins though atheists build foundations for their views on this sort of topic “Gay-free weather” and though unfounded they do make one think, ponder and hopefully do their research. Be offended if you so choose but your rebuttals to what I shared were no real rebuttal at all just angry vents for my position. They were like lots of round-house punches with no connections and thus no impact for thought or consideration.

Scripture is clear. There is no z-theory nor x or y. There is scripture which can be proven through simple exploration and study and testing in one’s personal life. Evens Hitchens conceded when presented with quantum physics the obvious that atheism was a much harder view to argue than intelligent design based simply on seeing the universe which is always expanding in reversed expansion until nothing remains, not even the carbon gases which supposedly collided setting off the explosion for the existence which we currently experience. Hitchens however wanted proof that the judeo-christian take on the intelligent designer was “the” only possible viewpoint. Personal testing is the answer and to test and share of the results of the testing are not pius or religious, they are simply testimonies. Those who argue against should simply test for themselves. Without testing there are just words.

If you want to take the truth as being a personal attack then have at it and this exchange will amount to nothing more than a war or words. You have presented nothing except to say that what I say is “my interpretation”. No one who reads this blog to this point will mistake your sharing of your mt. Carmel experience leading to your view as highminded or pius. It will simply be viewed as honest sharing. Surely for people who claim to know the nature of God we must remember how we came upon this knowledge of God’s true nature. I have shared mine and you have shared nothing only a sympathy for all individuals in whatever path they choose to take in life and a hope ‘christians’ would wholehearted support them. I too sympathize but the gospel is much more than sympathy though it must never be understated. From what you’ve shared and the good intentioned nakedpastors z-theory I see only philosophy, nothing more and nothing less though very interesting.

You Gary can have the last word if you like but truth is truth and from what I can gather based only on what I’ve read is that the view here is a somewhat diluted gospel mixed with buddhism and hinduism. It’s one where acceptance for one’s present state is the only goal. This you view as ‘progressive’. From what you’ve shared it is void of surrender, honest reflection of oneself and moving forward as God and scripture prescribes and thus why many remain in a hurtful emotional state. I do see the good intentions though.

As true Christians we must love all because of the ever-growing depths of our realization of Christ’s provision for us. It ought to change the ‘right-wing’s’ current tone and approach vs their current methodology. They have become political, jesus was not, but he was right and He was led. His example for us shows how we also can be led. Liberals and liberal Christians will obviously be offended no matter the tone because their hearts are set on their indulgence in their disposition and acceptance for that through social and political correctness.

As for the disciples ages, the evidence was fairly easy to find for me. You seem to be a fairly well researched individual, I’ll leave my claim to you to substantiate along with the sources from the claims come. Always research your sources otherwise a claim of fact is just that, a claim.

As I said I’ll leave the final word to you, to paint me and others like me with whatever brush you choose. In the end truth is truth and real lasting peace is begotten of truth. Circles of sympathy are at every corner, nook and cranny these days for acceptance of our various views and continuance in our dispositions if we so choose, but a provision has been made that we may address such dispositions and proceed.

Gary

“Hmmm Nope! I meant my clarification with regards to Hitchens and dawkins exactly as I stated. I was crystal clear but am not offended by your constant assumptions and judgements of me.”

Nonsense…you made no clarification. You compared me to two men who are chiefly known for being atheists with no stated or implied rationale otherwise. You still refuse to provide any alternate meaning so you statement that your “clarification” is what you meant is actually a falsehood. Provide a meaning or man up to your mistake.

“As for spiritual, everything is spiritual, everything. Enviroment and circumstances dictate much. Life’s experiences both good and bad affect our spirituality. The seeking and then eventual allowance for God to reveal himself empowers us despite ever-changing enviroments and experience. He is the constant.”

Uhm…ok.

“I believe based on our exchange that you feel conviction in some avenue for whatever reason thus your constant lashings out without any real contribution of food for thought for your position.”

Wow…you really are arrogant. And I have yet to see you offer ANY exchange relating to my questions. What “real contribution” are you looking for when you ignore EVERY attempt at healthy dialogue and instead present another treatise as to how spiritual you are? What are you so afraid of?

“Be offended if you so choose but your rebuttals to what I shared were no real rebuttal at all just angry vents for my position. They were like lots of round-house punches with no connections and thus no impact for thought or consideration.”

I have had little chance to offer any rebuttal because you have flatly REFUSED to participate in the conversation beyond grandstanding. You have not shared a position. I have reams of information to contribute to the subject. You seem to be afraid to engage however.

“Scripture is clear. There is no z-theory nor x or y.”

This is perhaps the silliest statement you have made yet. In fact it is beyond arrogance to even imply it. My god man…just count the number of radical divisions within the Christian faith among those who believe in inerrancy alone and you will have all the proof you need of the ignorance of such a claim. We don’t even need to introduce the glaring discrepancies and contradictions within scripture in the discussion to make your comment absurd.

“If you want to take the truth as being a personal attack then have at it and this exchange will amount to nothing more than a war or words.”

You don’t own the truth. You can make all the grand claims you want that you do, but in the end you are simply a seeker…just like me. Truth does not offend and I always welcome it.

“I have shared mine and you have shared nothing only a sympathy for all individuals in whatever path they choose to take in life and a hope ‘christians’ would wholehearted support them.”

Of course you just made this up because it has no basis in anything I have stated. You seem to be comfortable doing this.

“As true Christians we must love all because of the ever-growing depths of our realization of Christ’s provision for us. It ought to change the ‘right-wing’s’ current tone and approach vs their current methodology. They have become political, jesus was not, but he was right and He was led. ”

Now here we totally agree. Bravo.

“As for the disciples ages, the evidence was fairly easy to find for me. You seem to be a fairly well researched individual, I’ll leave my claim to you to substantiate along with the sources from the claims come. Always research your sources otherwise a claim of fact is just that, a claim.”

OK now this one is really choice. You clearly have no source for you “claim” and once again you sidestep it altogether as if you are immune. However…you find a need to caution me against doing that very thing you just demonstrated so clearly. Wow – maybe if I beat my head into the wall for a while I will be able to follow your meandering logic.

“As I said I’ll leave the final word to you, to paint me and others like me with whatever brush you choose. In the end truth is truth and real lasting peace is begotten of truth.”

You know what I would really prefer is for you to stay and discuss the issues presented in the cartoon. Then you can paint yourself. You waded into the thread by implying you knew God’s view on homosexuality and in what tone He delivered it. No matter how many times we have asked you to clarify this statement you have fled from it like a whipped dog with his tail between his legs all the while snarling over his shoulder as to how tough (spiritual) he really is.

I get that you don’t like the questions we ask…that they threaten to destroy your very neatly packaged view of truth and reality. You may be right about truth being truth. But we have no way of knowing what you believe truth to be because you refuse to ever clarify one of your silly claim statements. I.E. – We all know whatever it is you think is clear to all of us.

Seriously Barry…give it whirl. Stay and engage me or any of the other fine posters here. Let us ask some questions…and you ask some in return. I promise you I will answer as many as you will.

But if you leave simply because of fear or an unwillingness to even discuss tough issues…then we have no choice but to “paint” you as the closed minded fundamentalist you have revealed yourself to be thus far.

Barry House

ok then.lol. I’m back. So you’ve systematically broken down and attempted to debunk my response….unsuccessfully though with great grammer if nothing else but like Hitchens and dawkins you have said nothing of the nature of God as it pertains to the God except give your opinion. You have an opinion but have spoken nothing of God and his “nature” towards such with anything foundational. In fact you’ve said nothing outside your opinion.

I speak of our origin, our original nature, our various dispositions, our seeking for acceptance as we are, and without success. I speak of the cross’s finished work as the provision and means for true direction and peace, and the spiritual attitude which we must all have to be set free, have peace, and headed straightforward with him. I’ve said this from the start here while you’ve said nothing thus making it obvious who’s tail is between who’s leg.

You provide nothing except very entertaining literary nonesense. The purpose of which I presume is to boast our your heroics to friends of your personal perogative in pride. But still, no real atatement regarding the cartoon and why you believe as you do with anything substantiating such. To suggest arrogance is a poor but typical comeback. This simply suggests your present state of being with its consequences have reduced you to a state of wilful blindness and ignorance, not for compassion but for factual truth. That’s your choice. Its a lazy choice.

And again, as for the disciples ages, my teenage daughters found the answer to my questioning them of the same in but minutes. Their sources took about another half hour. This is not a tough ‘assignment’, certainly not if your researching is on par with your writing ability.

While you’re digging, find a few scriptures pro and con regarding homosexuality and God’s nature and spirit towards it and mankind in general, try it by testing and SHARE your findings.

Gary

Glad you chose to stay. Really. Perhaps we can make this productive. It will be up to you.

“but like Hitchens and dawkins you have said nothing of the nature of God as it pertains to the God except give your opinion. You have an opinion but have spoken nothing of God and his “nature” towards such with anything foundational. In fact you’ve said nothing outside your opinion.”

Laying the obvious irony aside (of you not recognizing you have provided NOTHING but opinion) I would like to correct your claim here. Pretty much the only time I have stated an opinion in this thread was stating my view regarding “His nature” on the very foundational issue pertaining to homosexuality. Here let me quote it for you directly to refresh your memory.

“Only a perverse god would create a man or woman homosexual and also make the condition they were created with by no choice of their own…a sin.”

This is not only dealing with the very nature of God, tied to the subject at hand, but it is based on my very personal experience of walking with Him and learning about His nature. Would think you would love this…lol. Beyond that I have not provided my opinion at all as you keep claiming other than one challenge of your declarative statement regarding the works of the flesh. What I have done is repeatedly ask you to clarify one of your many rambling opinions, which you have sidestepped EVERY time.

“I speak of our origin, our original nature, our various dispositions, our seeking for acceptance as we are, and without success. I speak of the cross’s finished work as the provision and means for true direction and peace, and the spiritual attitude which we must all have to be set free, have peace, and headed straightforward with him. I’ve said this from the start here while you’ve said nothing thus making it obvious who’s tail is between who’s leg.”

Well this is a creative re-write to your comments thus far. 😉 From what I can tell you have provided one nice testimonial concerning your spiritual journey and several re-hashes of your spiritual prowess as a means of avoiding any substance when questioned. You seem to keep implying that we should all see your incredible spiritual insight and simply accept your “opinions” without a moments hesitation. Of course the truth is even this creative re-write is one long run-on personal opinion. I actually agree with some of it…but then that is not the point now is it? You have provided nothing but an analysis which represents your opinion on these issues as you have not attempted to substantiate anything. Opinion is fine to a degree. We all reflect our personal experiences and journey. But don’t go around acting as if your opinions are something elevated to some lever of truth where those who disagree are merely personal opinion.

“You provide nothing except very entertaining literary nonesense. The purpose of which I presume is to boast our your heroics to friends of your personal perogative in pride. But still, no real atatement regarding the cartoon and why you believe as you do with anything substantiating such.”

Well…at least you have found it entertaining so all was not lost. 😉 Sadly however, you still refuse to acknowledge even one question of mine and provide any kind of answer. Even your smug avoidance of providing a source for the disciples ages is disingenuous, no I’ll call it dishonest, at best. Clearly you do this because you know your source is merely engaging in conjecture and your pride will not allow you to admit that it is “opinion”. They may be right or completely full of shit, (who really knows?) but the point is you presented it as fact rather than opinion and I called you on it.

“To suggest arrogance is a poor but typical comeback. This simply suggests your present state of being with its consequences have reduced you to a state of wilful blindness and ignorance, not for compassion but for factual truth. That’s your choice. Its a lazy choice.”

LOL – Sorry but the irony of your engaging in the very behavior you accuse me of is really kind of funny. Yes I did tell you that you are arrogant. I still believe this is true. (Don’t feel bad…I am sometimes as well) But pertaining to our discussion it has to do with your continued refusal to respond to any question or even a request for simple clarity.

“While you’re digging, find a few scriptures pro and con regarding homosexuality and God’s nature and spirit towards it and mankind in general, try it by testing and SHARE your findings.”

Very snide in your implication that a.) I have not already done this, and b.) That when I do I will of course find your great prowess of opinion to be unquestionably true. Of course I have researched this issue at great length, as have many millions of other believers who believe as I do, and your conclusions (as well as I am able to deduce them) come up short.

Still…I believe it is fair for you to answer even ONE of my questions before you can expect me to invest much effort in responding to your challenge. Clearly, though you have accused me of taking the “lazy choice” you have not even bothered investigate this very important issue facing our church today. I have many resources I would be happy to provide, but I really would like you to demonstrate even a slight hint of willingness to engage with honesty. Tell me what you believe we all already know. Or tell me what your believe God has said on this issue and in what tone. Or select one of the other very clear questions you have been asked and provide a simple and direct answer. THEN we will have a starting point to begin an honest exchange.

Barry House

“Only a perverse god would create a man or woman homosexual and also make the condition they were created with by no choice of their own…a sin.”

This is not a foundation for an argument. It is an opinion which coincides with your overall view of homosexuality and same-sex union.

Again, we are all born with dispositions. It is a product of the fall. You know this already. We can magnify homosexuality or not but do deal with it along with the other works of the flesh through what God has prescribed……There I go again assuming I know what the flesh is and what’s more, what God prescribes. lol. Such arrogence eh?

Romans 1? …..God giving them over to a reprobate mind.” There are many things mentioned there, homosexuality is among them. You probably have a twist to what it says but anyone can imply what this scripture means but why imply when the literal is right there in black and white.

Again I understand your view and I admire your sympathy for those who battle homosexuality. This has obviously reshaped your theology but it is scripturely unfounded and thus you’ve only one ‘lifeline’ to back your argument. That being to debunk as myth that scripture is the inerrant word of God.

I do not believe that you believe my conclusions come up short. I believe you know exactly what the truth is but it simply breaks your heart to admiminster the truth, and administer it in an effective way for Christ thus you compromise in sympathy.

Barry: When you, in the context of talking about homosexuality, say things like “it is a product of the fall”, and “works of the flesh”, “what God has prescribed”, “reprobate mind”, “black and white”, “battle homosexuality”, “inerrant word of God”, “administer the truth”, “compromise in sympathy”, it really DOES reveal your negative view of homosexuality and homosexuals.

Gary

“I do not believe that you believe my conclusions come up short. I believe you know exactly what the truth is but it simply breaks your heart to admiminster the truth, and administer it in an effective way for Christ thus you compromise in sympathy.”

I am not even going to break down your response and show the glaring fallacies of it simply because of what is revealed in this statement of yours given in conclusion.

There is little you could say that would demonstrate with greater clarity the depth of your arrogance and your unwillingness to engage with intellectual integrity.

I will waste no more time on your delusions of grandeur.

Barry House

I hear you Gary but you still have not stated your case. I am willing but you have said nothing.

Grandeur? hmmmm. Maybe for individuals who lack comprehension of the cross and its power or view it as simply symbolic. And again “arrogant”? Unfounded. As I said you have great sympathy and it is truly noble. I mean that sincerely but it is misguided.

Nakedpastor, you’ve identified some things but like gary have not taken anything in context either from what I’ve said or what scripture reads and elaborated to warrant your conclusion of me and my view towards homosexually or heterosexuality for that matter. But as I said to Gary I am willing to consider any uncovered scripture or revelation or other substantiated presentation you have on this subject.

Respecting the rights of others, including homosexuals, trumps scripture, or at least our interpretation of it.

Gary

“But as I said to Gary I am willing to consider any uncovered scripture or revelation or other substantiated presentation you have on this subject.”

Nope calling this for the pure unadulterated bullshit it really is. You proved this to be a lie with your comment I highlighted in my last post.

Sorry Barry (well not really) but I will not attempt to engage your dishonesty with substance.

Now you have the chance for the final word.

BW

‘Respecting the rights of others, including homosexuals, trumps scripture, or at least our interpretation of it.’

Amen to that.

Barry House

I respect the rights of others to do and live as they choose as does scripture in every interpretation. There’s no argument there. No trumping necessary.

Gary, for the love of Pete or St. Peter you in your endless rebuttals have said only that you believe it is part of God’s nature, homosexuality I mean. You’ve said only a perverse God would create people that way to have them battle in this throughout our lives. Thats all you’ve said as a defence for your position. Please enlightened me with something, anything.

God gave man dominion, man fell, man has many and picks up many dispositions but a provision has been made. That is what needs highlighting. “Those whom the Son sets free are free indeed.”

You’re making no sense with your highlighted post of my words. You’re grasping for the straws of validity for your position without any success beccause you’ve presented nothing for your case and I presume will not be able to do so hence your declaration of my arrogance and dishonesty with substance.