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Yes, I wondered why you didn't say anything when I was talking about knife fights several pages back, afa how Aikido has one grabbing at the knife. Do you think that's a good idea?

Btw, Merry Christmas(time to join my other family and sing carols and open presents) to all and to all a good night.

The reason I didn't say anything is that we are discussing the evolution of aikido and not "how to fight".

I personally make a distinction between fighting and Aiki. After about 13 years of studying Aikido, I feel like I have a decent understanding of what the methodology is designed to impart and what it is not.

Once we enter the realm of "fighting" or "tactics", that opens up a whole new area of discussion and focus.

Aikido is a part of that realm for me, but it is a completely separate training "time" in which I like to spend doing different training methods aside from TTPs or Skills.

I do, however, think it is good training to "crossover" and to put the pieces of the puzzle together from time to time though.

I think you would find the way I train more in tune with what you are looking for as I like to train a spectrum of things. There are others out there too that like to do the same.

I am very careful though about "blending" and the "evolving" thing though as it is important to keep methodologies distinct as they are designed to enhance/improve specific things. Hence why I am so adamant about thee whole evolution thing.

Again, I agree, there is alot of bad aikido with people doing things like grabbing for knives etc. That doesn't mean that the whole of aikido needs to evolve, just those that are doing the stuff the wrong way!

The reason I didn't say anything is that we are discussing the evolution of aikido and not "how to fight".

But, imo, that is directly a perfect example of what I'm talking about of Aikido evolving.

Quote:

Kevin Leavitt wrote:

Again, I agree, there is alot of bad aikido with people doing things like grabbing for knives etc. That doesn't mean that the whole of aikido needs to evolve, just those that are doing the stuff the wrong way!

Btw, so you're saying there's AIkido techniques that teach to totally get away from the knife (like we found to be the safest thing to do in FoF, i.e. in a real knife encounter)? I'll admit I'm new to Aikido, but I don't know of any( and don't think I'm not concerned about that"bad Aikido" and "etc" you mentioned). If any technique of Aikido is "'flawed" and has room for improvement, then is has room to evolve. Nishio Sensei even says Aikido has evolved over the last 50 yrs, so I know it's possible for Aikido to evolve.
Also, I've never said Aikido needed a complete makeover. In fact ,most of the changes will be subtle, others significant, but any change, however slight, if it's an improvement, it's an evolvement

Only between a single breath is Yin/Yang in harmony
Emotion is pure energy flowing feely thru the body-Dan Millman

This is from the book "Aikido Weapons Techniques" by Phong Thong Dang and Lynn Seiser (pg 56 Bo-jutsu and Jo-jutsu)- "Bo-jutsu and Jo-jutsu have never lost their combat effectiveness, because they were initially ideal for defeating but not killing. Jodo is a modern attempt to EVOLVE the more combative jutsu system into a sport, or 'do'." So here they're saying "do" means evolving to a sport. So the same could be said for Aiki-jutsu to Aikido(without losing any of it's spiritual or Budo meaning).

Only between a single breath is Yin/Yang in harmony
Emotion is pure energy flowing feely thru the body-Dan Millman

Teaching new students quicker, more effective...I would not waste my time with aikido or even be concerned with evolving aikido..

???(Am I missing something here?) I'm surprised....how many sempai and sensei finds themselves, at one time or another thinking to themselves (or even saying),"I know this concept, but how can I possibly teach it to that student." How much time (and students) would be saved if students could understand concepts sooner and/or easier, without frustration.

Only between a single breath is Yin/Yang in harmony
Emotion is pure energy flowing feely thru the body-Dan Millman

This is from the book "Aikido Weapons Techniques" by Phong Thong Dang and Lynn Seiser (pg 56 Bo-jutsu and Jo-jutsu)- "Bo-jutsu and Jo-jutsu have never lost their combat effectiveness, because they were initially ideal for defeating but not killing. Jodo is a modern attempt to EVOLVE the more combative jutsu system into a sport, or 'do'."

This is a correct usage of the term evolve since the combative form of the arts referred to are being altered in a fundamental ways that will result in wholy separate species of each.

Quote:

Clarence Couch wrote:

So here they're saying "do" means evolving to a sport.

WADR to Phong Dong Dang and Lynn Seiser, I believe the usage of 'do' is being incorrectly employed. There are many 'do' arts that are not sporting activities (Chado, the Way of tea, Kado, the Way of flowers, Shodo, the Way of writing to name a few). Therefore I have to respectively disagree with Gene's conclusion that 'do' means evolving to a sport when, in fact, 'do' translates to Way and implies:

"...a body of knowledge and tradition with an ethic and an aesthetic, and having the characteristics of specialization (senmonsei), transmissivity (keishōsei), normativity (kihansei), universality (kihensei), and authoritativeness (ken'isei)." from the Wikipedia Encyclopedia. See http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/D%C5%8D_(Way)

Quote:

Clarence Couch wrote:

So the same could be said for Aiki-jutsu to Aikido(without losing any of it's spiritual or Budo meaning).

Applying the same usage of evolve as in the above paragraph I'd have to disagree since Aikido retains the characteristics of a martial art and is clearly not a separate species from Aiki-jutsu.

But, imo, that is directly a perfect example of what I'm talking about of Aikido evolving.

Btw, so you're saying there's AIkido techniques that teach to totally get away from the knife (like we found to be the safest thing to do in FoF, i.e. in a real knife encounter)? I'll admit I'm new to Aikido, but I don't know of any( and don't think I'm not concerned about that"bad Aikido" and "etc" you mentioned). If any technique of Aikido is "'flawed" and has room for improvement, then is has room to evolve. Nishio Sensei even says Aikido has evolved over the last 50 yrs, so I know it's possible for Aikido to evolve.
Also, I've never said Aikido needed a complete makeover. In fact ,most of the changes will be subtle, others significant, but any change, however slight, if it's an improvement, it's an evolvement

For the most part aikido is a principal based practice or methodology designed to teach principles of aiki. As such it, it is really only (or should be) concerned with teaching principles of martial movement. It is why I use the term "Martially Relevant" and not "Martially Effective". Shomenuchi practiced correctly is martially relevant, but no one I know of remotely considers it Martially effective!

We practice it that way to help us understand principles. It is a technique in and of itself, but it is not an end unto itself, but a means to and end, which is to teach your "self" "Ai Ki".

It is up to you to explore things martially, to figure out the timing, movement, engagement, ma'ai, and to find application that you consider to be "martially effective".

I for one, think Aikido is really a graduate level practice. yes, it can be entered into at any level of prior experience. However, I think for many it is best to develop a martial base.

One thing I think that is tough for those of us that come from other martial backgrounds like hardstyle Karate, jiujitsu etc. is that we have established a paradigm and filter system that can block us when we apply it against aikido. I know I did for a LONG while!

The paradigm I had was looking at aikido as a "fighting system", and I approached every training day with that mentality. It is frustrating! You see alot of things that simply do not work or you would not do in a fight. (also, sometimes coupled with some silly stuff from some people that is just downright wrong!).

However, assuming that you have access to good instruction, if you can suspend your paradigm of a complete fighting system and look at it as a methodology to teach "aiki" you will begin after a while to see some of the things that it has to offer that will be beneficial when you put it back together.

It is a long, slow road though, and it is not necessarily the ONLY way to do it!

There are alot of solo exercises and training I do on my own, that many aikido instructors either don't know, or don't teach for whatever reason that are good to do as well. I have only begun to scratch the surface on this area, but what I have done has been beneficial.

???(Am I missing something here?) I'm surprised....how many sempai and sensei finds themselves, at one time or another thinking to themselves (or even saying),"I know this concept, but how can I possibly teach it to that student." How much time (and students) would be saved if students could understand concepts sooner and/or easier, without frustration.

There are alot of sensei out there that DO teach things like this to their students. Don't assume that just because you have not experienced it that they don't cover it.

Check out Roy Dean's website. He is a good example of a "crossover" that combines BJJ and Aikido. Although I think you will find that he too considers the two methodologies somewhat separate in training and not as a complete hybrid blend.

Roy dean has learnt to adapt not only his wrist locks 1 to 5 in his application of BJJ but he also displays beautiful, powerful yet gentle BJJ.
So the foundation of Aikido plays a huge part in his elegance as a martial arts practitioner

Before you drive or steer your vehicle, you must first start the engine, release the brake and find gear!

???(Am I missing something here?) I'm surprised....how many sempai and sensei finds themselves, at one time or another thinking to themselves (or even saying),"I know this concept, but how can I possibly teach it to that student." How much time (and students) would be saved if students could understand concepts sooner and/or easier, without frustration.

When you find the magic pill that imparts understanding, do let me know. I'll market it and give you a 2% royalty.

As I said to you in another thread, understanding is not something that the teacher can give the student. It seems obvious that you don't want to accept this, but it is the truth.

This is a correct usage of the term evolve since the combative form of the arts referred to are being altered in a fundamental ways that will result in wholy separate species of each.

But wait, I just can't accept if that just because you change one thing in a MA, that alone makes it a whole different "species" nor that that specifically defines evolve.

Quote:

Ron Ragusa wrote:

WADR to Phong Dong Dang and Lynn Seiser, I believe the usage of 'do' is being incorrectly employed. There are many 'do' arts that are not sporting activities (Chado, the Way of tea, Kado, the Way of flowers, Shodo, the Way of writing to name a few). Therefore I have to respectively disagree with Gene's conclusion that 'do' means evolving to a sport when, in fact, 'do' translates to Way and implies

???? Dr Sieser incorrectly, misusing a term??? How do you know those "do's" aren't being competed?

Quote:

Ron Ragusa wrote:

Applying the same usage of evolve as in the above paragraph I'd have to disagree since Aikido retains the characteristics of a martial art and is clearly not a separate species from Aiki-jutsu.
Ron

So you're saying Aikido and Aiki-jutsu is the same thing? That can't be right.

Only between a single breath is Yin/Yang in harmony
Emotion is pure energy flowing feely thru the body-Dan Millman

For the most part aikido is a principal based practice or methodology designed to teach principles of aiki. As such it, it is really only (or should be) concerned with teaching principles of martial movement. It is why I use the term "Martially Relevant" and not "Martially Effective". Shomenuchi practiced correctly is martially relevant, but no one I know of remotely considers it Martially effective!

See, here's one of my points, most folks are thinking of Aikido( and most all MA) as an empty hand MA and it isn't. A Shomenuchi with a sword is one of the most Martially effective techniques known to man. However, I'd expect that anybody with any sense wouldn't even attempt it without it.

Quote:

Kevin Leavitt wrote:

We practice it that way to help us understand principles. It is a technique in and of itself, but it is not an end unto itself, but a means to and end, which is to teach your "self" "Ai Ki".

I thought we practice that way so that the Nage can practice his technique and has nothing to do with an empty hand shomenuchi. My point here is alot of opinions are based in a wrong presumption. When I become a Sensei, my students will practice Aikido with a Ken in their hand.

Quote:

Kevin Leavitt wrote:

One thing I think that is tough for those of us that come from other martial backgrounds like hardstyle Karate, jiujitsu etc. is that we have established a paradigm and filter system that can block us when we apply it against aikido. I know I did for a LONG while!The paradigm I had was looking at aikido as a "fighting system", and I approached every training day with that mentality. It is frustrating! You see alot of things that simply do not work or you would not do in a fight. (also, sometimes coupled with some silly stuff from some people that is just downright wrong!).

That is exactly what I was talking about when I said," How much time (and students) would be saved if students could understand concepts sooner and/or easier, without frustration." This'd be an evolvement.

Only between a single breath is Yin/Yang in harmony
Emotion is pure energy flowing feely thru the body-Dan Millman

Ron, Imo, it's correct( something about the comma), but Jun has already warned to keep the posts thread specific and no personal attacks, so unless you have something to add about Aikido evolving, I have nothing else to say except, enjoy the rest of the Holidays.

Last edited by GeneC : 12-26-2008 at 04:56 PM.

Only between a single breath is Yin/Yang in harmony
Emotion is pure energy flowing feely thru the body-Dan Millman

I realized something this morning. As I watched our dogs( we have Malamutes and Chijuajuas) feeding and in the process of feeding them we also feed the neighborhood birds- Cackles, Swifts, Doves and Pigeons. I don't mind feeding the other birds, but not those darn verminous, disease carrying Pigeons, but then I realized that even tho Doves are the Birds of Peace, they're more feral than the Pigeons, meaning the Pigoens are more evolved.

Only between a single breath is Yin/Yang in harmony
Emotion is pure energy flowing feely thru the body-Dan Millman

...they're more feral than the Pigeons, meaning the Pigoens are more evolved.

I still can't get behind your idea of evolution: differently evolved seems more appropriate. I'm assuming you mean feral to denote a higher degree of aggression and from the standpoint of getting food in the wild, that might be more evolved. From the standpoint of getting more food from you, it might be less evolved, but only if it prevents them from attaining their goal. Similarly, Aikido evolution of pedagogy depends upon what you're trying to acheive.

Nevertheless, if the authors are contending that the term 'do' connotes having evolved to a sport in all cases and are not just referring to the two arts mentioned in their book then they're wrong. I'll repost the paragraph from my prior post that contains Wikipedia reference:

There are many 'do' arts that are not sporting activities (Chado, the Way of tea, Kado, the Way of flowers, Shodo, the Way of writing to name a few). Therefore I have to respectively disagree with Gene's conclusion that 'do' means evolving to a sport when, in fact, 'do' translates to Way and implies:

"...a body of knowledge and tradition with an ethic and an aesthetic, and having the characteristics of specialization (senmonsei), transmissivity (keishōsei), normativity (kihansei), universality (kihensei), and authoritativeness (ken'isei)." from the Wikipedia Encyclopedia. See http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/D%C5%8D_(Way)

and I'll ask the question again:

Clarence Couch wrote: How do you know those "do's" aren't being competed?

I never said they weren't being competed, only that they're not considered sports. Would you consider an art competition a sport?

I still can't get behind your idea of evolution: differently evolved seems more appropriate. I'm assuming you mean feral to denote a higher degree of aggression and from the standpoint of getting food in the wild, that might be more evolved. From the standpoint of getting more food from you, it might be less evolved, but only if it prevents them from attaining their goal. Similarly, Aikido evolution of pedagogy depends upon what you're trying to acheive.

My idea of evolved is not changed: adapting to improve to survive.
My point about the Pigeon is that it has evolved to be domesticated more than the Dove.

Only between a single breath is Yin/Yang in harmony
Emotion is pure energy flowing feely thru the body-Dan Millman

I realized something this morning. As I watched our dogs( we have Malamutes and Chijuajuas) feeding and in the process of feeding them we also feed the neighborhood birds- Cackles, Swifts, Doves and Pigeons. I don't mind feeding the other birds, but not those darn verminous, disease carrying Pigeons, but then I realized that even tho Doves are the Birds of Peace, they're more feral than the Pigeons, meaning the Pigoens are more evolved.
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
My idea of evolved is not changed: adapting to improve to survive.
My point about the Pigeon is that it has evolved to be domesticated more than the Dove.

Try looking at swine. Domestic hogs go feral very quickly if left to survive on their own morphing back to (all characteristics) being wild boar.

You mean like Judo? Yes, boxing? yes Karate? yes. Aikido? yes.
Then there's photo competitions, drawing competitons, painting competitions, craftmaking competitons (have you never been to a fair?). Then there's horseback riding, archery and just about every sport in the Olympics started out as an art.
How do you know the arts you mentioned aren't considered a sport in other parts of the world? I presume they are because of the human nature to compete. Anything that requires skill will eventually be a competition and hence, a sport. Btw, what makes a competiton a sport?

Only between a single breath is Yin/Yang in harmony
Emotion is pure energy flowing feely thru the body-Dan Millman

You mean like Judo? Yes, boxing? yes Karate? yes. Aikido? yes.
Then there's photo competitions, drawing competitons, painting competitions, craftmaking competitons (have you never been to a fair?). Then there's horseback riding, archery and just about every sport in the Olympics started out as an art.
How do you know the arts you mentioned aren't considered a sport in other parts of the world? I presume they are because of the human nature to compete. Anything that requires skill will eventually be a competition and hence, a sport.

We'll just have to agree to disagree on this one Gene. I would say that all sports involve competition but not all competitions are sports. I do not consider Aikido a sport.

Quote:

Clarence Couch wrote:

Btw, what makes a competiton a sport?

To borrow a page from Justice Stewart, I can't define it but "I know it when I see it."