"Just go holy" - A plea to the dev's from a Prot paladin

I want to preface this by saying that the below post is going to be delivered to Blizz official forums once they are back up from maintenance. I am posting this here for a few reasons though...namely I would like input from the rest of you on suggestions for changes or implementations to help alleviate the woes of PROT (and, to a lesser degree Ret) PVP.

"Uhh...don't need a melee. Can you go Holy?"

So, I'm sure that by now, anyone who isn't Holy in PVP has already heard this at some point in MoP when asking to get an invite to anything PVP related. Whether its a competitive RBG invite, or even a points-capping 2s/3s, people just DO NOT WANT a paladin unless they are Holy. I've played as non-holy the entirety of my paladin career, spanning almost 6 years; prior to that I played a warrior, and ever since the swap (aside from 1 week in 3.0) it's felt like a second-rate citizen in PVP. Granted that Ret has been a BG hero against undergeared 1300 players, and the mystique of OMGBUBBLE has kept the class firmly planted on the weak side of balance and class-progression. But I'm talking about rated/competitive PVP; there's only so much fun to be had blowing up fresh max-level toons every 2-3 minutes.

Now, recently at least, Ret has been getting some much appreciated attention from the dev's in terms of PVP viability buffs and dmg tweaks that apply to PVE and PVP. This is great, and as I said widely appreciated by [most of] the class. Granted, there are some complains about the buffs (shocking, I know) and suggestions or changes have been lobbied for in many other threads. Most of those suggestions have some merit, I think; but that is not what this thread is about or focusing on.

This thread is about Prot paladins, and parity between tanks/FCs in PVP. Or lack thereof.

First, before we go any farther, I want to say that I think ProtPal is in a stupendous place in PVE. I think the interaction with self/group healing, smart use of ShotR and our wealth of cooldowns and utility make ProtPal an extremely useful and desirable tank in PVE. My only regret is that all of those items I just listed do not translate to PVP. At all.

By and large, I think we can all agree that removing vengeance from PVP was a good change. Tanks in PVP should be about control, survival, and being a nuisance. Tanks should NOT be about stacking up huge amounts of AP and 1-3 shotting things. It's fun (for us), but clearly not good gameplay for anyone. The problem that removing vengeance causes is lack of scaling (I know that's now a four-letter word around these parts, but I don't know what else to call it). See, with the implementation of active mitigation systems (Bravo, by the way....stellar ideas and very welcomed), proper tank play for survival revolves around our damage reduction and/or self-healing scaling with the incoming damage. This is fine in PVE, where encounter mechanics can be used cleverly to stack vengeance and boost survival/damage output, effectively rewarding good play. It is also fine that each tank has a different method of mitigating and/or healing the damage; to have homogenous systems would be no fun for anyone.

The problem arrives when we try to transfer that to PVP.

PVP in 5.x is all about 2 things: CC and Burst, the most effective forms of both of which are instant. This has gotten far out of hand, and seems to only be trending upward, but that's a topic for another time. The only counter for CC is trinket or dispel, and the only counter for burst is defensive cooldowns or LoS. I know it's not wise to consider abilities in a vacuum, so let's look at the tank spec's of classes as a whole, and see their methods for surviving or mitigating burst:

So, it's pretty easy to see why Prot paladins aren't sought after. Compared to the other options, we don't really have anything going for us that one or all of the other tanks can't do better. The only thing we CAN do better is provide some group utility via hand spells, but a Holy paladin already brings that AND heals, without any of the sub-par FC/defender issues.

So, what to do?

I think it’s pretty clear that 1 of 2 things is going on. Either:

1) Blizzard is OK with the fact that there is a VERY clear and distinct hierarchy of tank classes in the game, or
2) They don’t know that and/or don’t know how to fix it.

If the first option is accurate, then I suppose there is not much that this post will do, but I’m hoping that’s not the case. I’m hoping it’s the second option, and hoping that it’s something we can fix through discussion. First step of fixing any issue is figuring out what the problem is. Let’s look at the class breakdown of FC/defenders in PVP:

Warrior =/> Druid >>>>>> Monk >> Blood >> Paladin

There may not be the proper amount of >’s in there to really reflect the true disparity between warrior/druid and the rest of the options, as there really is a Grand Canyon sized difference. This difference is largely attributable to the fact that it is far better and more effective to avoid damage than it is to mitigate it. And mobility is the easiest and best way to do that; consequently, the classes that offer the highest mobility are warrior and druid, followed by monks.

What I’d like to see here, for better parity between classes, is some mobility buffs in PVP. I won’t attempt to fix monks or BDKs, as I don’t have enough experience to do so (especially not without breaking PVE in the process). What I DO think will be a great buff for ProtPal is to make self-casted HOF’s undispellable. This would have NO impact in PVE, but in PVP would prevent simply buffing the enemy mages. It would allow the prot to actually escape something in this era of rapidly reapplied passive snares. Making it only prot and only-self casted HoF’s would not be gamebreaking, would allow for use of our speed talents, and would still be counterable via blanket silence.

If you ARE caught up to as a FC, the next best thing is to CC/peel those attackers and buy some time/room to escape as opposed to standing there and trying to tank the damage. Again, we see great tools in the form of shockwave, Ursols, roots, piercing howl, here. Even monks and DKs have spammable snares/roots to help open distance. Aside from BoG (which SHOULD be baseline for Ret already and removed as a talent), there is no snare option even available to Prot Pala, and taking BoG means giving up your ONE reliable peel, Fist of Justice.

I’d like to see Consecrate get some love here. We already have a glyph that turns it into a semi-DnD, in that we can place it with the reticule. I suggest adding a snare component to consecrate as well (either on the glyph, or baseline and the glyph can remove it, or whatever doesn’t seem too OP). Since consecrate is Prot only, it would not provide utility to ret or holy, but would add some nice utility to prot. Even in 5.2, the spell is pretty weak damage wise, and really only useful for breaking out stealth…is it so much to ask to give it some utility?

Finally, if you can’t avoid and can’t escape the damage, you’ve got no choice but to stand there and take it. There are 2 ways to deal with incoming damage: mitigation or self-healing. In PVP, the things that make a great tank are the ability to shrug off damage that gets through. Healing is great, but it’s why you have healers. Since tanks no longer get AP from vengeance in PVP, self healing tanks (aka BDKs and Prot Pals primarily) really get shafted on their defenses. Sure, most tanks have some form of self heal, but BDK/Pal rely more heavily on it as defense versus warrior, druid and monk.

I’d like to see PVP power increase damage and healing for tank spec’s by the full amount for non-%based heals(think circa 5.0 style). This would be a relatively benign buff to ALL FCs, and may even get some warriors out of second wind (doubtful).Granted FCs stack resil anyway, but the passive power would contribute at least a bit to their self healing. This should fix some of the survival disparity for the lower ranked tanks, and be a QoL increase for all without making them god-mode.

Additionally, I’d like to see some survival increases to prot specifically, since what makes us great in PVE consequently makes us subpar in PVP. ShotR (and the associated Bastion of Glory buff) is amazing in PVE because it is a short term, on demand physical dmg redux. 3 sec duration means that it requires smart use to maximize, but if you can use it effectively it becomes a huge survival increase. I’d like to suggest that the 4pc PVP bonus extend the duration of ShotR by 3 seconds (for a total of 6.0). I should be clear that I’m asking that this be looped into the existing “non-holy” set, and not created a new “prot” set, as that’s far too much work for both item designers AND players. Clearly, this would be gamed by PVE’ers in the suggested incarnation, so perhaps it can be worked to only apply in BGs (otherwise we’d have perma-ShotR in PVE!), or perhaps something else could be created.

I’d suggest Holy Wrath as a candidate for change if that was the case (since, again it is only available to prot). Make Holy Wrath debuff any target hit with the Denounce effect (reduced chance to critically strike). This would have no effect in PVE, would only be available to protection paladins, and would add HUGE group utility to prot in team fights and/or prevent getting trained. Since HW meteors its damage (and we don’t have Vengeance), it is a paltry amount of damage already in PVP. Attaching some utility function to it would make it a fun button to hit, instead of a “filler”. And the reduction of crit chance is certainly a “protection” theme far more than one that a healer would suggest.

I’m not asking for prot buffs to be OP and return to the days of African Turtle Cleave where tanks were locking down and 2 shotting people. I want tanks to be fun for what they are and should be: juggernauts who are tough to bring down and who you WANT on the front lines of a group fight to control the enemy. Warriors are an excellent template to pull from, as are druids. But, I don’t want to be a warrior, or a druid; I want to be a Paladin and I want to be viable. And I think the changes suggested above a good step in the right direction to make us exactly that: viable. Not OP, and not a laughingstock.

Because, not all of us are satisfied with being told: “Dude, just go Holy”.

Originally Posted by Malthanis

We'll all be appropriately shocked/amazed when Nairobi actually gets an avatar, but until then, let's try to not derail the thread heckling him about it.

Originally Posted by Blizzard Entertainment

If it was that easy don't you think we would have figured that out? (Source)

I think that they need to bring vengeance back. They need to take an approach similar to hybrid off healing. Make it so that vengeance contribution in PvP is 20% that of PvE. Also, part of the problem was in Cata, rogues (and a few other select classes) slaughtered Prot Paly making them the LAST option for rated PvP. Now that role belongs to Bremaster, but there is still a negative aura stemming from cata for pvp prot paly's.

I used to be prot in cata, but realized people wanted hpaly more than prot, hence i made the switch.

I couldnt tell you the last time I saw a Prot Paly in RBG's since early cata. Sucks imo, but most all of the defensive CD's at prots disposal are immunity effects which cannot be used when carrying a flag (only reason to bring a tank class imo) where other tank classes defensive are actual defensive abilities.

Problem Prot Pallys have is that they lack mobility and damage compared to Prot Warriors. Which is essentially the same problem Ret has in PvP.

I don't think it's so much the damage of prot warriors, as much as it is the control and mobility that make them so good. Damage is what you bring ranged for, and I don't think it's fair or good gameplay to have high tank damage in PVP. But, I do agree with you that we lack damage as well...can't argue that. I just think we have bigger fish to fry first.

Originally Posted by voidspark

What about giving a version of Emancipate to protection as well as ret?

I thought about that, and it may be the easier choice/implementation, but it still doesn't solve the issue of GCD locked due to emancipate spam, which isn't enjoyable for anyone. Now, granted dispel-immune HoF may be a bit much; perhaps should be something like "Freedom now makes you immune to snares/roots for 3 sec after being dispelled. Effect does not trigger if the cooldown expires naturally" to be more fair to both sides.

At any rate, hopefully it will get some attention. Sadly it's too long to post in the normal forums have to settle for PTR only...

Originally Posted by Malthanis

We'll all be appropriately shocked/amazed when Nairobi actually gets an avatar, but until then, let's try to not derail the thread heckling him about it.

Originally Posted by Blizzard Entertainment

If it was that easy don't you think we would have figured that out? (Source)

Pally is more viable than people think, but there is a lot of things we could do to be brought up to war lvl

Change something so were not so succeptible to silence AND disarm,
Undispellable freedom or emancipate,
Improve self heals
Give back AS aoe silence and maybe make it aoe 3sec stun(to compete with shockwave)
Improve SoI with either giving us the aoe SoI heal back or just buffing SoI
Make the AW glyph heal tick for more
Since we have so many skills that scale off vengance, give us some mechanic to increase the skills based off ap
Maybe lower speed of light cd and let it break roots(same mechanic as safeguard)
I also wouldnt mind getting the talent back from cata prot tree, cant remember name but it caused any self overhealing to create a protective shield around the paladin
These are all just quick ideas of course

Pally is more viable than people think, but there is a lot of things we could do to be brought up to war lvl

Change something so were not so succeptible to silence AND disarm,
Undispellable freedom or emancipate,
Improve self heals
Give back AS aoe silence and maybe make it aoe 3sec stun(to compete with shockwave)
Improve SoI with either giving us the aoe SoI heal back or just buffing SoI
Make the AW glyph heal tick for more
Since we have so many skills that scale off vengance, give us some mechanic to increase the skills based off ap
Maybe lower speed of light cd and let it break roots(same mechanic as safeguard)
I also wouldnt mind getting the talent back from cata prot tree, cant remember name but it caused any self overhealing to create a protective shield around the paladin
These are all just quick ideas of course

Yah, I know that I've spoken with you before about protpal as a FC currently. I agree, it's playable, but it's not really ideal or viable above 1500ish. Additionally, given the community's adherence to mob mentality, it's increasingly hard to even get an invite in the first place for a low-to-no rating RBG as an FC. Which is a shame, cause a well played prot pal will run circles around a FOTM class that's played poorly.

You hit a lot of points that I covered, and I think that some sort of "PVP Vengeance" mechanic would do well to even out the parity of tanks. Something like, increases the defensive/self healing parts of your toolkit that scale with AP, but doesn't grant any offensive AP. I'm sure it'd be a nightmare to code, and there's probably something easier or more elegant as a solution, but given how much of a protpal's toolkit revolves around vengeance, not having it really hurts.

Additionally, the bigger issue is utter lack of mobility and/or control, but we're on the same page there too.

Originally Posted by celinamuna

Fairly sure that blizzard doesn't want to support tanks in pvp setting as in. (IE the removal of veng)

So then, who exactly should be carrying flags or guarding nodes in organized PVP? Tanks [should] have a role in PVP, primarily one of control, mobility and distraction. Tanks should NOT be out-DPSing ANYONE, for sure. That's why Vengeance was removed. The sad side effect of that was that when the dust settled, some classes fared MUCH better than others in terms of remaining PVP viable.

Originally Posted by Malthanis

We'll all be appropriately shocked/amazed when Nairobi actually gets an avatar, but until then, let's try to not derail the thread heckling him about it.

Originally Posted by Blizzard Entertainment

If it was that easy don't you think we would have figured that out? (Source)

So then, who exactly should be carrying flags or guarding nodes in organized PVP? Tanks [should] have a role in PVP, primarily one of control, mobility and distraction. Tanks should NOT be out-DPSing ANYONE, for sure. That's why Vengeance was removed. The sad side effect of that was that when the dust settled, some classes fared MUCH better than others in terms of remaining PVP viable.

the reason for the removal of vengeance in pvp was because tanks were way over powered with it back when they added the vengeance blood dks were impossible to kill not only because of how much healing they done but also because of the insane amount of damage they done

it seems that removing vengeance seems to have removed their viability

They, at best, have a niche as flag carriers and that is the utmost the Devs want you to do. Walking around as unkillable Vengence-driven machines will never be a thing again. I liked it but it's gone and they said that's fine with them. There shouldn't be 34 viable PvP specs in the game. They will sooner nerf a Tank that is becoming too common in Arena/RBGs than buff another Tank because that gives the impression that they might actually give a damn about Tanks in PvP which they just do not. At all. They don't want it to be a thing. Don't even bother posting it, even if you're points are right/well-made/good/agreeable.

1) Emancipate
2) Speed of Light on 30 secs CD or less OR Double the duration of LAotL ORdouble PoJ OR Some kind of Leap/Intervene/Blink

There: Ret and Prot on a good spot, not OP but worth taking. All this are MUST for Prot/Ret PVP to be working.

---EDIT---

Where is your post on Blizz forum so we can +1 it?

"I notice my rating actually boosts when I remember to have fun. Playing competitively while also enjoying yourself and focussing on having good games instead of getting rating is way more important.
After 2.2k the fun devolves into a twisted realm suffering and despair and you will quit pvp from extreme traumatic stress and you will probably xfer to Moon Guard and join some Belf rp guild and become a prostitute in Silvermoon."by Clukclukbewm

Fairly sure that blizzard doesn't want to support tanks in pvp setting as in. (IE the removal of veng)

That, I think is the bigger issue here. Tanks don't belong in PvP, at least they shouldn't be there for professional PvP, but there they are. If Warriors tanks exist in PvP, it's because of their mobility and control. They also don't do too badly in damage either.

What needs to be done is that tanks shouldn't really be a requirement for RBGs. As it is the biggest issue putting one together is finding one. I'm sure Warriors would rather be ARMs or Fury for PvP, rather then tank spec.

They, at best, have a niche as flag carriers and that is the utmost the Devs want you to do. Walking around as unkillable Vengence-driven machines will never be a thing again. I liked it but it's gone and they said that's fine with them. There shouldn't be 34 viable PvP specs in the game. They will sooner nerf a Tank that is becoming too common in Arena/RBGs than buff another Tank because that gives the impression that they might actually give a damn about Tanks in PvP which they just do not. At all. They don't want it to be a thing. Don't even bother posting it, even if you're points are right/well-made/good/agreeable.

It is NOT supposed to be a return to ATC, nor a return to LOL UNKILLABLE BLOOD DK. Tanks exist in organized PVP for the purposes of flag carrying and/or node defense. I don't want them to be damage powerhouses, nor take a whole team of players to bring down by themselves. I just would like to see some parity and equality among tank specs, just as we all do for melee specs as well. Once we get that, I think issues like:

Originally Posted by Dukenukemx

What needs to be done is that tanks shouldn't really be a requirement for RBGs. As it is the biggest issue putting one together is finding one. I'm sure Warriors would rather be ARMs or Fury for PvP, rather then tank spec.

will be less difficult to overcome, because you'll have more than 1-2 classes to choose from. I'm willing to bet that even some Rets would MUCH rather go to RBGs as Prot, than reroll/relearn Holy.

Last edited by Nairobi; 2013-02-19 at 11:56 PM.

Originally Posted by Malthanis

We'll all be appropriately shocked/amazed when Nairobi actually gets an avatar, but until then, let's try to not derail the thread heckling him about it.

Originally Posted by Blizzard Entertainment

If it was that easy don't you think we would have figured that out? (Source)

They, at best, have a niche as flag carriers and that is the utmost the Devs want you to do. Walking around as unkillable Vengence-driven machines will never be a thing again. I liked it but it's gone and they said that's fine with them. There shouldn't be 34 viable PvP specs in the game. They will sooner nerf a Tank that is becoming too common in Arena/RBGs than buff another Tank because that gives the impression that they might actually give a damn about Tanks in PvP which they just do not. At all. They don't want it to be a thing. Don't even bother posting it, even if you're points are right/well-made/good/agreeable.

They very much do care, and have stated that they want ALL roles to have a place in PvP. Thus... RBG's. FC's are tank classes.

The saddest thing I can think of about FCing as Prot Nairobi, is that Dark Apotheosis Demo locks are arguably better FC's than Prot paladins. =/

will be less difficult to overcome, because you'll have more than 1-2 classes to choose from. I'm willing to bet that even some Rets would MUCH rather go to RBGs as Prot, than reroll/relearn Holy.[/QUOTE]

This ^^^, i actually enjoy fcing/playing prot, even today(2k cr as prot pally)i think it takes more skill because of cd management than warriors do with all their passives

Nothing. But a lot of us don't necessarily enjoy the playstyle nearly as much, if at all, and yet want to play our paladins in competitive PVP. I don't much enjoy healing on my paladin, I do it, because Ret sucks and sometimes our PvP comp calls for it, but I would much rather Resto druid or Disc priest if I had to heal, they are much more enjoyable.