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Re: Should Confucius Institutes Be Banned?

Originally Posted by joG

You really think that forbidding free speech will make America a better place? I would expect that out of Moscow or Peking, maybe out of continental Europe.

I suppose I didn't really clarify what I meant. I wouldn't support banning the institutes outright, but as an organization that blatantly spreads lies and stifles thought and discussion, I don't think their association with schools and universities is at all appropriate.

Re: Should Confucius Institutes Be Banned?

Originally Posted by Rainman05

The US govt should really consider hiring people to teach Mandarin and Cantonese to people in public schools because it's going to be important. And also consider establishing state-sponsored languages groups where people can go and learn these things.

They should but it shouldn't be people who are known to spy to the American government and industry and teach the language by singing songs about how glorious Mao is and why Falung Gong needs to be persecuted.

Re: Should Confucius Institutes Be Banned?

Originally Posted by joG

You really think that forbidding free speech will make America a better place? I would expect that out of Moscow or Peking, maybe out of continental Europe.

Would you support having Nazi groups go into schools to teach German with songs about how Jews are evil and Hitler was the greatest man who ever lived? The Confucius Institute wants to paint Mao, the greatest murderer in history in a positive light. If you would not support having Nazi groups in schools, why support the CCP?

Re: Should Confucius Institutes Be Banned?

Originally Posted by Carjosse

They should but it shouldn't be people who are known to spy to the American government and industry and teach the language by singing songs about how glorious Mao is and why Falung Gong needs to be persecuted.

Which is why I said state-sponsored.

In my city there is a japanesse club. They teach people japanesse. Now I ofc, never went to it because japanesse sounds either too silly or too dark and broody and it's overall an ugly language. It also sounds a lot like hungarian so screw that. But there are people who attend and love it. The guy teaching there is not a jap, he's a romanian who knows japanesse. I'm also learning german so you know, 1 language at a time. Which btw, there is a german state-sponsored culture club in my city where I can go and take german lessons and german tests. It is sponsored by the german govt as I said but it is also subsidized by my govt because it's part of the academia. But the people who work there are romanians who just speak german real good.

I'm advocating the same for you know... chinesse (mandarin and cantonesse, chinesse as a language doesn't exist per se). Americans who know chinesse to be encouraged to start such clubs. It will be very useful. It is useful today and it will be very useful in the near future.
The anglosphere is losing a lot by this stubborn refusal to be monolingual. You see this in Britain and the US and to an extent in KangarooLand and less so in Canada coz there a lot of people also speak French.

Bilingualism has shown to have immense benefits for the brain (health-wise, like reducing chance of mental disabilities and disorders like alzheimers) and for the way people think.

Re: Should Confucius Institutes Be Banned?

Originally Posted by Rainman05

Which is why I said state-sponsored.

In my city there is a japanesse club. They teach people japanesse. Now I ofc, never went to it because japanesse sounds either too silly or too dark and broody and it's overall an ugly language. It also sounds a lot like hungarian so screw that. But there are people who attend and love it. The guy teaching there is not a jap, he's a romanian who knows japanesse. I'm also learning german so you know, 1 language at a time. Which btw, there is a german state-sponsored culture club in my city where I can go and take german lessons and german tests. It is sponsored by the german govt as I said but it is also subsidized by my govt because it's part of the academia. But the people who work there are romanians who just speak german real good.

I'm advocating the same for you know... chinesse (mandarin and cantonesse, chinesse as a language doesn't exist per se). Americans who know chinesse to be encouraged to start such clubs. It will be very useful. It is useful today and it will be very useful in the near future.
The anglosphere is losing a lot by this stubborn refusal to be monolingual. You see this in Britain and the US and to an extent in KangarooLand and less so in Canada coz there a lot of people also speak French.

Bilingualism has shown to have immense benefits for the brain (health-wise, like reducing chance of mental disabilities and disorders like alzheimers) and for the way people think.

When I was in Montreal to see my university, I heard some many languages spoken and people would flow between them. Our hotel was also in the most multicultural area of the country, one second you would here French then it switches to English, Chinese, Hebrew, or Arabic (yes Hebrew and Arabic in the same area). I was listening to a group of elementary school girls waiting in line ahead of us to get through the turnstiles for the subway and they switched seamlessly between English, French, and Chinese. We do need more language classes as being multilingual and groups like that would help except when they are run by the CCP's propaganda ministry.

Re: Should Confucius Institutes Be Banned?

Originally Posted by Carjosse

When I was in Montreal to see my university, I heard some many languages spoken and people would flow between them. Our hotel was also in the most multicultural area of the country, one second you would here French then it switches to English, Chinese, Hebrew, or Arabic (yes Hebrew and Arabic in the same area). I was listening to a group of elementary school girls waiting in line ahead of us to get through the turnstiles for the subway and they switched seamlessly between English, French, and Chinese. We do need more language classes as being multilingual and groups like that would help except when they are run by the CCP's propaganda ministry.

I'm not commenting on the whole espionage claim. It's not the relevant part of the discussion if you ask me. If the chinesse wanted to spy on the USA all they have to do is watch the news and if they wanna infiltrate american society, they'd do so more sneaky rather than teaching people chinesse. At least that's how I see things. What they'd do is sponsor a movement, there are plenty that they could bankroll, and let them work, do recruiting, spread the word and go and persuade people. And there's plenty of sinofils who would do it. I'm sure if you google for pro-chinesse movements in the USA you'd find a bunch.

And yes, as I said, that's canada. They have a lot of such programs. I know a lot of people learn hindi there too.

Then you have the island state of Malta and Cyprus and Switzerland and to your shock and maybe surprise, Albanians are known to be very multilingual, also countries where you have people with high rates of multilingualism. Belgium, the netherlands are also very high up there.

2 foreign languages is rapidly becoming the norm in most european countries with the exception of, you guessed it, England. And it's the same story in the anglosphere. Because English is such a dominant language and you can get by just with it, people don't feel the need to learn it. But it pays off knowing foreign languages.

Which is why I said. If you don't want other influences getting in on the action and educating people through foreign language courses, and maybe putting in some propaganda here and there... maybe the state should get in on the action and satisfy this need. Put these resources for people to access.

Re: Should Confucius Institutes Be Banned?

Originally Posted by Rainman05

I'm not commenting on the whole espionage claim. It's not the relevant part of the discussion if you ask me. If the chinesse wanted to spy on the USA all they have to do is watch the news and if they wanna infiltrate american society, they'd do so more sneaky rather than teaching people chinesse. At least that's how I see things. What they'd do is sponsor a movement, there are plenty that they could bankroll, and let them work, do recruiting, spread the word and go and persuade people. And there's plenty of sinofils who would do it. I'm sure if you google for pro-chinesse movements in the USA you'd find a bunch.

And yes, as I said, that's canada. They have a lot of such programs. I know a lot of people learn hindi there too.

Then you have the island state of Malta and Cyprus and Switzerland and to your shock and maybe surprise, Albanians are known to be very multilingual, also countries where you have people with high rates of multilingualism. Belgium, the netherlands are also very high up there.

2 foreign languages is rapidly becoming the norm in most european countries with the exception of, you guessed it, England. And it's the same story in the anglosphere. Because English is such a dominant language and you can get by just with it, people don't feel the need to learn it. But it pays off knowing foreign languages.

Which is why I said. If you don't want other influences getting in on the action and educating people through foreign language courses, and maybe putting in some propaganda here and there... maybe the state should get in on the action and satisfy this need. Put these resources for people to access.

Belgium I laugh at, maybe Flanders but definitely not Wallonia. I wish I could find statistics on the average number of language spoken here but the government only collects statistics on primary language spoken at home. Quebec is trying to teach more English again since they just elected a Liberal government again. Couillard saying that English does have a place in Quebec.

Re: Should Confucius Institutes Be Banned?

Well, ok, but again, this is to do with states in Europe recognizing that there is a need for multilingualism and that it is an economic, health and social benefit to it.

If the US govt doesn't get in on the action and start putting important financial and intellectual efforts into developing a multilingual resource structure in the country, so that people can go to and access, like culture clubs for all sort of languages and improving the quality of foreign language teaching in public schools, don't be surprised when other countries/factions/companies/whatever are going to get in on the action.

If the USA would have state sponsored chinesse (again, mandarin or cantonesse as the main largest ones, chinesse as a language doesn't exist) learning and study clubs there would be no need for confucious institutions which could be operating under the orders of a foreign power. Again, I'm not saying they are or aren't, that's not the discussions I'm interested in, I am just saying, you cut out that possibility so you don't have to worry about it.

Same with arabic. And this will be controversial. A few years ago there was that story of a highschool in NY I think putting arabic as a optional language course and people freaked the **** out. Recently you had that "under Allah" pledge controversy which was stupid to say the least but w/e. The point is, if you know arabic in the USA today, you can get a 6 figure paying job in many government jobs and private companies like oil companies and others. There is a demand for this. Why should an american company who is doing business in the ME have to pay an arab a salary over there when he can hire an american who speaks arabic. An american would be more qualified, he would understand his job better, he would be more flexible and more reliable, and bam... 6 figure salary. So this is the problem. And this is a failing of the US govt who should have done important projects to raise arabic learning in the USA because it knows there are problems in the ME and at some point, it'll have to intervene... and it also knows that the people who know arabic are useful.

Imagine if Saudi Arabia would be sponsoring... idk... "mohammed rullz" culture clubs in the USA to teach people arabic and one of the main ways they'd do that is by teaching them the koran and having them memorize islamic scriptures. You'd be pissed as ****. I would. So why not have the govt handle this affair and cut the legs from under anyone trying to manipulate the process.

Re: Should Confucius Institutes Be Banned?

Originally Posted by aseidner

I suppose I didn't really clarify what I meant. I wouldn't support banning the institutes outright, but as an organization that blatantly spreads lies and stifles thought and discussion, I don't think their association with schools and universities is at all appropriate.

No reason public schools and universities have to associate with them. But I have always thought it a good idea to confront the intellectual enemy face on and would like to think the faults in its arguments be shown up.

Re: Should Confucius Institutes Be Banned?

Originally Posted by Carjosse

Would you support having Nazi groups go into schools to teach German with songs about how Jews are evil and Hitler was the greatest man who ever lived? The Confucius Institute wants to paint Mao, the greatest murderer in history in a positive light. If you would not support having Nazi groups in schools, why support the CCP?

I think I would want all groups treated the same as i described above. Crime is treated as crime and stupid ideas are explained and are argued with. That is how free democratic society works best.