This argument feels sort of fruitless. Did Mother's game count really ever contribute to it's relevancy in Super Smash Bros.? I feel like the Mother series, unlike other series, definitely boasts a theme of quality over quantity. This is what makes it's passionate and cult fanbase. Same thing for other small-numbered games, such as the horror-girl RPG Maker games, OFF, the Dark Cloud series, etc.

I just feel like how much the games contributed to Nintendo isn't really in question here. What did instead was it's wonderfully unique style and beauty in the dialect of RPG.

I believe I'm gushing, so I'm going to while I'm ahead. I just don't want to see the deciding factor for Ninten's inclusion be whether or not Mother 64 counts as a title.

Aside from the debate about having the original protagonist as a playable character, what can Ninten offer in playstyle that hasn't been done with Ness and Lucas already? That has barely been discussed.

What neither Ness nor Lucas have concentrated on is defensive PSI, even though that's the speciality of all three protagonists. Defensive PSI include things like healing health (Lifeup), restoring status (Healing), shields (Shield, Power Shield) and stat boosts (Offence Up, Defence Up, Quick Up). The thing is, the original Ness didn't use these simply because it's far more practical to have offensive PSI repped in a smash game. So the question is if we can make a moveset that incorporates these sorts of defensive PSI.

Couple of points that are generally in favour of Ninten:- The original Mother also has some cool items that either aren't in the later games, or aren't repped by Ness/Lucas. An example is the Flashdark, which in-game causes the opponent to go blind. Another example is the Rope, which binds an opponent on the spot.- There is one PSI that only Ninten can use in the entire series: "SuprHealing". This PSI revives a fallen ally. Now, near the end of the original game,

Actual spoiler:

Two of your teammates, Teddy and EVE

, die. Ninten could use SuprHealing to revive one of them as a final smash.

Actual spoiler cont.:

Teddy is a fast, powerful fighter who wields a sword. EVE is a giant robot.

- You know that really sweet melody that comes in halfway through the Onett remix in Melee? That's the original "Eight Melodies", the song that Ninten and co. use to defeat the final boss. So, it has actual power. Now, canonically, that song only works as a weapon against the final boss, and no one else, but we could see to what extent we can Sakurai it into a final smash.

...So the question is if we can make a moveset that incorporates these sorts of defensive PSI...

I think we can. This would be an interesting and fulfilling way to make Ninten.

I know, that's why I tried to make Ninten's moveset more unique and different from the other Mother/EB characters in the game, I would like to see more Defensive PSI in the game and Ness hasn't of that and Lucas only has Offense Up. Even through Ninten hasn't Offensive PSI at all, he still has great strenght (much stronger than Ana and Loid attacking together) and Offense Up or Defense Up can make him more powerful/resistant.

I heard someone mention before that Ninten would bring nothing new because we already have Lucas and Ness. That's like saying we shouldn't have another Pokemon character because we already have Pikachu and Jigglypuff, Ninten has an entirely different movepool and stat layout than any of the other protagonists and would provide tons of unique features (one example I saw made him basically the ranged mage of the trio, complete with a toned-down, Special Attack version of PSI Starstorm (alpha) and the inclusion of PSI Beam). Apologies for addressing a topic not actually brought up here, but I figured it would be appropriate and I needed a soapbox to stand on.

Also, support. Wholeheartedly. We need the last member of the Mother protagonists.

Last edited by Shiruza on Sun Jul 19, 2015 10:49 pm; edited 1 time in total

While Ninten is the main character in the first game in the series and has the potential for a unique moveset, I'm not sure about the representation we're getting here.

Admittedly, I don't know much about the Mother series... but don't all 3 main characters (Ninten, Ness, Lucas) fill the same niche in the party, good melee damage with defensive PSI? While it might be nice to actually represent the defensive side of Mother in Crusade, but as far as the characters are concerned, we've already represented it twice. If we're going for a good Mother representative, I feel like we should go for someone who can't use PSI - Lloyd, Jeff, or Duster (Lloyd if we want Mother 1).

Additionally, Mother already has 3 characters in Crusade in the current demo. This is 3 characters from a niche, finished franchise with 3 games (though the series does span a wide period from NES to GBA). Why should this series get a 4th character before a lot of other franchises get 1 or 2? Assuming all of the official Smash characters are in, there's still Nintendo franchises like F-Zero, Splatoon, Golden Sun, Chibi-Robo, Starfy, Animal Crossing, Wars, Fossil Fighters, Custom Robo... Then there are extremely significant franchises with 2-3 characters that you're suggesting Mother gets more than (Kirby, Donkey Kong, Metroid), as well as all of the popular third parties (Frogger, Shantae, Jim, Spyro... this list can go on forever really).

I feel like there's too much going against Ninten, I can't support him. Sure, there may be a lot of slots open for characters to get in... but I think there's too many characters going for those slots, and I'd put other Mother characters ahead of Ninten.

While Ninten is the main character in the first game in the series and has the potential for a unique moveset, I'm not sure about the representation we're getting here.

Admittedly, I don't know much about the Mother series... but don't all 3 main characters (Ninten, Ness, Lucas) fill the same niche in the party, good melee damage with defensive PSI? While it might be nice to actually represent the defensive side of Mother in Crusade, but as far as the characters are concerned, we've already represented it twice. If we're going for a good Mother representative, I feel like we should go for someone who can't use PSI - Lloyd, Jeff, or Duster (Lloyd if we want Mother 1).

Additionally, Mother already has 3 characters in Crusade in the current demo. This is 3 characters from a niche, finished franchise with 3 games (though the series does span a wide period from NES to GBA). Why should this series get a 4th character before a lot of other franchises get 1 or 2? Assuming all of the official Smash characters are in, there's still Nintendo franchises like F-Zero, Splatoon, Golden Sun, Chibi-Robo, Starfy, Animal Crossing, Wars, Fossil Fighters, Custom Robo... Then there are extremely significant franchises with 2-3 characters that you're suggesting Mother gets more than (Kirby, Donkey Kong, Metroid), as well as all of the popular third parties (Frogger, Shantae, Jim, Spyro... this list can go on forever really).

I feel like there's too much going against Ninten, I can't support him. Sure, there may be a lot of slots open for characters to get in... but I think there's too many characters going for those slots, and I'd put other Mother characters ahead of Ninten.

Well you see, out of the three Ninten is the most PSI-based character of the bunch, with Ness being the Melee-heavy character and Lucas being a nice balance of the two. Hence why there'd be a larger focus on PSI and such.

The only reason I'd suggest it is for completion's sake. We have the main character of the second and third games along with their villain, but we don't have the hero who started it all. I can understand why he might not be included, and I can always live with it, but there will always be that part of me that will greatly regret it if he is never included to fill that last little hole in the Mother series' representation.

Also, um... Sorry, but Frogger? Is there really that huge a fanbase for Frogger? Sorry but that comparison just... Really stuck out to me. Out of all of the fanbases you mentioned there, the Mother fanbase is by far the most vocal, active, and gigantic fanbase of them all. Sure the games themselves may be classed as niche cult-classics, but they're far from obscure diamonds in the rough, and they are arguably one of the most (in)famous Nintendo series since its explosion in popularity online. Plus it's finally getting overseas love, the most it's had in decades, with the relatively recent re-release alliteration is your friend of Earthbound, as well as the first ever release of Mother 1 in America via the virtual console. Plus the fangame Mother 4 (which was officially sanctioned by the original creator) is soon to be released as well. Really, as of late the Mother series has been doing great these past few years in terms of recognition, so they're far from niche and unloved. Certainly more than the likes of Chibi-Robo (rest in peace, my metal friend; hopefully the platformer is at least a decent tombstone).

Apologies, not to rant. It's just... It's not exactly a minor series. And I'm fine with no Ninten, but a lack of popularity is not a good reason. Leaving it at "we have 3 reps already" is good enough.

While completion sake is a noble cause, the Mother series does have three representatives. I think the space for a future character should go to a series that hasn't gotten love, like F-Zero which still only has one rep.

While completion sake is a noble cause, the Mother series does have three representatives. I think the space for a future character should go to a series that hasn't gotten love, like F-Zero which still only has one rep.

But of course, F-Zero should get another rep before the Mother series does. That being said, in the event that Mother does receive another rep, I personally believe it should be Ninten (as you said, for completion's sake).

Last edited by Shiruza on Sun Jul 19, 2015 10:51 pm; edited 1 time in total

Well you see, out of the three Ninten is the most PSI-based character of the bunch, with Ness being the Melee-heavy character and Lucas being a nice balance of the two. Hence why there'd be a larger focus on PSI and such.

The only reason I'd suggest it is for completion's sake. We have the main character of the second and third games along with their villain, but we don't have the hero who started it all. I can understand why he might not be included, and I can always live with it, but there will always be that part of me that will greatly regret it if he is never included to fill that last little hole in the Mother series' representation.

Also, um... Sorry, but Frogger? Is there really that huge a fanbase for Frogger? Sorry but that comparison just... Really stuck out to me. Out of all of the fanbases you mentioned there, the Mother fanbase is by far the most vocal, active, and gigantic fanbase of them all. Sure the games themselves may be classed as niche cult-classics, but they're far from obscure diamonds in the rough, and they are arguably one of the most (in)famous Nintendo series since its explosion in popularity online. Plus it's finally getting overseas love, the most it's had in decades, with the relatively recent re-release alliteration is your friend of Earthbound, as well as the first ever release of Mother 1 in America via the virtual console. Plus the fangame Mother 4 (which was officially sanctioned by the original creator) is soon to be released as well. Really, as of late the Mother series has been doing great these past few years in terms of recognition, so they're far from niche and unloved. Certainly more than the likes of Chibi-Robo (rest in peace, my metal friend; hopefully the platformer is at least a decent tombstone).

Apologies, not to rant. It's just... It's not exactly a minor series. And I'm fine with no Ninten, but a lack of popularity is not a good reason. Leaving it at "we have 3 reps already" is good enough.

I guess that's reason enough for Ninten being considered, but I don't feel that being the main character of the first game is reason enough to earn the spot.

As far as mentioning Frogger, I was going by the character statistics post... Frogger has a surprisingly large number of votes. Probably not a good comparison. (Maybe a better comparison is Shenmue, a similarly loved franchise that is overshadowed within its own company)

I agree that the Mother series is getting a lot of love recently and is very popular, but it really is a fairly minor series within the Nintendo realm. A lot of other series should be getting their one rep before Mother gets 4. That said, if there is room left after everything else more important is taken care of, Ninten could be given some consideration. I'd still rather have Lloyd/Jeff, but Ninten is an option at that point.

I guess that's reason enough for Ninten being considered, but I don't feel that being the main character of the first game is reason enough to earn the spot.

As far as mentioning Frogger, I was going by the character statistics post... Frogger has a surprisingly large number of votes. Probably not a good comparison. (Maybe a better comparison is Shenmue, a similarly loved franchise that is overshadowed within its own company)

I agree that the Mother series is getting a lot of love recently and is very popular, but it really is a fairly minor series within the Nintendo realm. A lot of other series should be getting their one rep before Mother gets 4. That said, if there is room left after everything else more important is taken care of, Ninten could be given some consideration. I'd still rather have Lloyd/Jeff, but Ninten is an option at that point.

Alright then, fair enough (Shenmue was a much better comparison thank you). Other characters get rep before another is added to Mother, that's very reasonable. I also understand the want for Jeff or Lloyd, make no mistake, and I'm also happy that you understand the want for Ninten.

...I honestly don't know what to do now. Everyone understands each other for once! xD

While completion sake is a noble cause, the Mother series does have three representatives. I think the space for a future character should go to a series that hasn't gotten love, like F-Zero which still only has one rep.

I agree, while Ninten would be nice, there could be better choices. For example, for how big the franchise is, Zelda seems a lil' under-repped compared to Earthbound, even though it has one more character.

I agree, while Ninten would be nice, there could be better choices. For example, for how big the franchise is, Zelda seems a lil' under-repped compared to Earthbound, even though it has one more character.

I think it's fair to assume Zelda and Sheik will be in, bringing the count to 6 vs 3. I also remember talks about Vaati. Ninten is far down on the priority list, but Zelda is fine.

While completion sake is a noble cause, the Mother series does have three representatives. I think the space for a future character should go to a series that hasn't gotten love, like F-Zero which still only has one rep.

I agree, while Ninten would be nice, there could be better choices. For example, for how big the franchise is, Zelda seems a lil' under-repped compared to Earthbound, even though it has one more character.

I agree with this wholeheartedly and I'd love to see more Zelda rep (starting with, well... Zelda), but this is not the Zelda thread; this is the Ninten thread, for all of your Ninten-related needs. Though of course other franchises need rep first, the question is not whether or not other franchises need more rep but if he'd make a good character for the final roster. It's our job to convince the devs that it'd be a good character or otherwise.

So say that Zelda got 2 more reps, and F-Zero got one as well, and other franchises were either repped or further repped. Along with many more additions, let's assume that we are now at the age of the final roster.

Would you think that Ninten would be a good addition in that case? Possibly as an unlockable?

I think it would be interesting if the devs spun it the right way. The idea of defensive style psi moves would be a good start. I could imagine Ninten being a character that relies on turtling.

But, there is one issue, and that is it would be hard to visually communicate the difference in design between Ness and Ninten. Visually, they're almost identical, so Ninten would need to be sprited with very different "attitude" and posture to differentiate him.

I think that it would be a character that could be challenging to implement in a unique way, but has great potential.

I think it would be interesting if the devs spun it the right way. The idea of defensive style psi moves would be a good start. I could imagine Ninten being a character that relies on turtling.

But, there is one issue, and that is it would be hard to visually communicate the difference in design between Ness and Ninten. Visually, they're almost identical, so Ninten would need to be sprited with very different "attitude" and posture to differentiate him.

I think that it would be a character that could be challenging to implement in a unique way, but has great potential.

Well for starters, they could redesign him. There's actually a Ninten redesign that can be found on the vault; if they use that one, I'd imagine it'd be much easier to tell the two apart.

Edit; I also like what you said about the defensive gameplay. There seems to be a lack of intentionally defensive characters in Smash, outside of the likes of Phoenix Wright, so I'd like to see how that would play out.

I like that redesign of him. Now I'm really getting interested in this character!

As far as being a defensive character, a good place to start would be ways to guard attacks while in the air. While Ness kicks butt with this aerial rush down, Ninten could be a character that could actually defend himself in the air.

Something else to bring up... who would sprite Ninten? I haven't talked with NU in forever (Might've been a couple years ago when New Leaf came out?), and he's the one who sprited Ness and Lucas iirc.

I think it's ok to say this at this point... back when I worked on SSF2, I remember NU made some sample attacks for Jeff and Masked Man. But that was years ago...

As far as a defensive playstyle, I'm not sure how unique that will be once we start getting a full roster in. Of course it would be good for Ninten... but uniqueness is important to maintain. (I've already suggested Andy, Layton, and Sly, all of which are somewhat defensive)

Talking about sprites, I whipped this up (quickly, it could be made better) out of interest: in this conversation.Of course it doesn't exactly fit the other Mother characters, but I'm sure I could help if he ever gets added to the roster I can help!

I think that it could be managed to make Ninten's defensiveness unique. I'm thinking that he should mainly be a character that is defensive, with attacks designed to punish your opponents moves. A very decisive move set, one that requires you to commit to moves.

I think healing psi moves could be implemented in an interesting way. Maybe have it so that he can absorb the blows of opponents (with good timing of course), and either use the energy gathered to heal himself, or do a highly damaging, highly punishable blast.

As for the spriting, that's an incredible job! Would it be possible to do one in the style of the supposed redesign, just so we could see how it might look in concept? Perhaps in the style of the current Mother characters' sprites?

Yeah, that shouldn't be a problem. I'll get to it once I have access to my computer later today. It would be easier if I could find the original sheets for Ness and Lucas, though.

See the "Ninten isn't Ness" rant I quickly made far up above.

As for the spriting, that's an incredible job! Would it be possible to do one in the style of the supposed redesign, just so we could see how it might look in concept? Perhaps in the style of the current Mother characters' sprites?

Yeah, that shouldn't be a problem. I'll get to it once I can get on my computer.

Maybe I took a little too much inspiration from his Ness sprite, but here's a mock-up.EDIT:

Yeah, that shouldn't be a problem. I'll get to it once I have access to my computer later today. It would be easier if I could find the original sheets for Ness and Lucas, though.

See the "Ninten isn't Ness" rant I quickly made far up above.

As for the spriting, that's an incredible job! Would it be possible to do one in the style of the supposed redesign, just so we could see how it might look in concept? Perhaps in the style of the current Mother characters' sprites?

Yeah, that shouldn't be a problem. I'll get to it once I can get on my computer.

Maybe I took a little too much inspiration from his Ness sprite, but here's a mock-up.EDIT:

Amazing! This is becoming so realized...

I also like what you mentioned earlier about the absorbing Smash Attacks. Do you think they should be PSI-based?

Ideas for Smash animations that I just thought of:

F-Smash: Charges PSI in both hands, then thrusts them forwards in an open palm to shoot a quick burst of diamond-shaped PSI. It sends him back very slightly and has high range.

U-Smash: Slowly twirls his finger while emitting PSI, catching opponents and dealing rapid damage, then throws a quick burst of diamond-shaped PSI upwards with his other hand to launch.

D-Smash: Tenses, and then releases a shield of diamond-shaped PSI that covers most of his body. It has good starting knockback and pushes opponents a good distance away, but has fairly below-average knockback growth, making it reliable defensively but unreliable as a kill move.