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Topic: TDA Rule #9 Suggestion (Read 8334 times)

Another rule to look at (TDA #9 Face Up). My suggestion, and as always, I would like your thoughts. I understand what the rule states, however, I think it needs a little clarification. The current Rule 9. Face Up... All cards will be turned face up once a player is all-in and all betting action is complete.

TDA RULE #9. FACE UP

9.1 At the showdown, all cards will be turned face up on the table.* SEE #11 Showdown.

9.2 When action is down to two players, either player going all-in, will call for an immediate display of "face up," by both players.

9.3 When any player goes all in, with a multy handed pot, a side pot will ensue. The following rules apply; All side pot winners must be determined before any all-in hand is shown.* SEE #13 Side Pots. However, the all-in player still has an obligation to show their hand, even when it is not a winning hand.

I have a question about the 2nd 9.2 (which I think you mean to be 9.3). The second sentence says, "The following rules apply; All side pot winners must be determined before any all-in hand is shown." I think you need to clarify what you mean because there could be one or more all-in hands in one or more of the side pots.

Maybe something along the line of: If there are multiple pots in a given hand, the main pot will be awarded last and side pots will be awarded in the reverse order of creation. In other words, side pots will be awarded in LIFO (Last In, First Out) order.

Chet,That's exactly what I mean. I went back and fixed 9.3 ...How does this look?

TDA RULE #9. FACE UP

9.1 At the showdown, all cards will be turned face up on the table.* SEE #11 Showdown.

9.2 When action is down to two players, either player going all-in, will call for an immediate display of "face up," by both players.

9.3 When any player goes all-in, with a multy handed pot, a side pot will ensue. If multiple all-in's create multiple side pots, the following rules apply; The main pot will be awarded LAST and side pots will be decided in reverse order of creation. *SEE Rule #13. However, all-in players still have an obligation to reveal their hand, even though it is not a winner.

Should 9.3, at least that part that discusses multi-handed pots refer back to 9.1? Perhaps, 9.3 would better "fit" as part of rule 13, since it is talking more about how to work with side pots than turning cards face up.

9.3 When any player goes all-in, with a multi-handed pot, a side pot will ensue. If multiple all-in's create multiple side pots, the following rules apply; The main pot will be awarded LAST and side pots will be decided in reverse order of creation. *SEE Rule #13. However, all-in players still have an obligation to reveal their hand, even though it is not a winner.

I suggest the last sentence read as follows: As individual side pots are awarded, any 'all-in' player involved with the pot being decided, must turn his cards 'face-up' in accordance with 9.1.

Chet, If I were to suggest that, I would not ask for any change. IMO, the problem with the current rule is; Players that are all-in, should NEVER turn their cards "face up" until the winner of the side pot that they are involved is decided. Turning over your cards, before your side pot winner is decided, could induce a player to prematurely fold their hand.

When teaching student dealers; I encourage them to ask to see the hands of the players that bet last, and so on, in reverse order. The all-in player with the least amount in the pot, will be contesting the main pot, and is last to showdown their hand.

Chet, I want to say that rule #11 covers the order of showdown, and I believe that it contradicts the existing rule #9.

Nick: My opinion is that Rule 9 applies ONLY if there is an all-in, in which case it supercedes rule 11. If there is NO all-in, then rule 9 does not apply. Rule 11 can still apply to side pots that do not involve an all-in player. That is how I see it anyway.

Chet, If you feel that #11 supersedes #9, then perhaps they should be switched? Would my rules for #9 confuse you? I feel that the current rule is misleading.

The TDA has the absolute best set of rules written, especially when you consider that they are condensed on only five pages. IMO, a few more lines, or sometimes just a word or two, is all it would take to win over more followers. I guess nobody else cares to respond.

Nick: Just as a point of information, Rules 9, 11 and 13 have been in their current form since at least 2007. None of these three rules were added or updated at the last summit.

From your comment in the first sentence of your most recent post, I am getting the impression that you think the order of presentation of the rules has something to do with their priority of application. I don't believe that to be the case. Just because rule 9 appears before and is numbered lower than rule 11 doesn't mean that it has a higher priority or should be applied before rule 11. Each stands alone and should be applied depending upon the individual circumstances at hand.

Chet, which rule is more clear. the current rule, or the one with the changes that I propose? Does any of what I say make sense? Do you think that it is okay for all players, even those that are all-in, to turn their cards over at the same time, even though it could cause confusion? Or am I the only person that sees the current wording flawed? I will repeat myself again, I understand what Rule #9 is trying to say but, I also think it can be misleading. What is wrong with my suggested changes?

Nick: I don't know there is anything "wrong" with your suggested changes, I just don't see there is a need.

Maybe I am completely off base and I will be the first to admit you have a great deal more experience than I, but I just don't ever remember a situation coming up which I was not able to resolve with these three rules written as they are.

That said, I will be the first in line to support your request that these changes be put forward at the next TDA Summit for discussion and a decision by the membership.

Chet,That's exactly what I mean. I went back and fixed 9.3 ...How does this look?

TDA RULE #9. FACE UP

9.1 At the showdown, all cards will be turned face up on the table.* SEE #11 Showdown.

9.2 When action is down to two players, either player going all-in, will call for an immediate display of "face up," by both players.

9.3 When any player goes all-in, with a multy handed pot, a side pot will ensue. If multiple all-in's create multiple side pots, the following rules apply; The main pot will be awarded LAST and side pots will be decided in reverse order of creation. *SEE Rule #13. However, all-in players still have an obligation to reveal their hand, even though it is not a winner.

add to : "9.3 When any playermore than three players goes all-in, with a multi handed pot, some side pots will ensue. If multiple all-in's create multiple side pots, the following rules apply; The main pot will be awarded LAST and side pots will be decided in reverse order of creation (LIFO order : Last In, First Out)." FACE UP will go step by step, from the first side pot to the main pot. Only the best hand could proceed to the next resolution of the next side pot and other hand/s are discarded.

Nick: I don't know there is anything "wrong" with your suggested changes, I just don't see there is a need. ...

Chet

i see a need to have clearly instructions for a beginner like me. I have just to translate in french and not to have a interpretation of the meaning. So it give a response to a beginner, how can i do this right in my practice ? how to applied this and spare time and errors ?

in the title of the rule changing for Face up to All-in Face up, because this rule concern only a all-in situation and could be easier to find this a word searcher then it's in the title.best regardsAxel

I realize there hasn't been much said on this lately, but since you were looking for more input:

In my opinion, your wording makes it less clear and I feel that the current rules are better.

You say that everyone turning their hands over can induce a player to fold prematurely. If all cards have to be turned face up, I'm not sure how this can happen. With the current rule, all players must turn their cards over. You are saying that all players have to turn their cards face up, but someone is folding prematurely? You see the contradiction? They can't fold prematurely if all cards must be turned face up. If players are being allowed to fold, that's wrong and you need to make sure that everyone (players, floor, dealers) understands that when someone is all in and betting action is complete that all cards must be turned over even if the player is certain that they have a losing hand.

Here are some comments on your changes:

At the very least, you need to clarify that this is only for all-in situations, you don't do that in 9.1

In 9.1, you don't specify anything regarding all-in or not. Reading this would indicate that all players still in the hand at the showdown must turn over their hands, whether anyone is all in or not.

In 9.2, you don't mention that betting action must be complete. As written, this would indicate that the player who is deciding whether or not to call an all in bet gets to see the cards before they have to make a decision. I realize this wouldn't be allowed, but if you are trying to make things clearer, this needs to be specified.

In 9.3, when you say "all-in players still have an obligation ..." did you mean to say all players? As written, it seems like someone will be allowed to discard a hand face-down when they are involved in a side pot prior to the pot being contested by the all-in player.

In general, it seems like you are trying to get people to only turn over their hands when the smallest side pot (latest side pot created) which they might have a piece of is going to be awarded. I don't think that is necessary, but if that is what you want, I think there are better ways of doing it. Possibly as follows, although how to word it is still going to be confusing no matter how you do it.

9.1 When there is no side pot, all cards will be turned face up once a player is all-in and all betting action is complete.

9.2 When there is one (or more) side pot(s), cards will be turned over as players are involved in the side pot which is being awarded.