In 1976, the same year as the founding of Cardozo, Dr. Norman Lamm
succeeded Dr. Samuel Belkin as president of Yeshiva University, becoming
the first native-born American to head the institution. He is widely recognized
for his writings and discourses on interpretation of Jewish philosophy
and law, especially in relation to problems involving science, technology,
and philosophy in the modern world. He graduated from Yeshiva College summa
cum laude in 1949 and was class valedictorian. He was ordained as a rabbi
by YU's affiliated Rabbi Isaac Elchanan Theological Seminary in 1951, and
earned a Ph.D. in Jewish philosophy from the University's Bernard Revel
Graduate School in 1966. Cardozo Life editor Susan Davis sat down with
President Lamm to hear his views and recollections of Cardozo's history
and growth.

DAVIS: I have often heard you speak eloquently about the relationship
between Cardozo and Yeshiva University; I wanted to be able to share your
thinking with our readers. First, however, I would like you to take a look
back to what the Law School was like at the beginningˇhow it seemed to
you, the vision that the University sought for it.

LAMM: I can't take credit for the vision. I was not the midwife
of the Law School, but its fraternal twin. My tenure as president of the
University is one month older than the Law School. As a faculty member,
I was on the committee that chose Monrad Paulson to be the founding dean
of the Law School. He was a marvelous choice. He had the stature and the
personality to found the Law School for Yeshiva University.

He himself was an elder in the Lutheran Church and a man with very broad
vision who understood the relation of a great law school to a great Jewish
university. He had the respect and admiration of not only the entire legal
community but of the entire University community. He put the School on
the right footing from the very beginning.

I remember that at a Cardozo board meeting shortly after the Law School's
founding, he issued a very strong statement to the effect that he did not
become the founding dean of Yeshiva's Law School in order to create another
trade school. He wanted Cardozo to emphasize the professional aspects of
the law but also the law's cultural and intellectual worth, believing that
a legal education should do more than just prepare people to make a living.
He wanted Cardozo to be a place of culture and scholarship. That is why
he was so delighted that it was a part of a university which reveres scholarship
and learning.

This philosophy has remained with the School, and successive deans and
faculty leaders have developed Cardozo with this in mind. I believe that
it is responsible for Cardozo having won acclaim for such a productive
facultyˇespecially for such a young school. It is why so many of the faculty
have multiple degrees with expertise not only in the law but in literature,
social science, political science, philosophy, economics, and other areas.

It also gives a certain breadth and commodious quality to the whole
School.

DAVIS: Is it fair to say that the vision was a good one right
from the start?

LAMM: The vision was a very good one. You see, the vision of
the University in founding the Law School was twofold. First, law is a
significant element of Western culture a
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nd human culture in general, and
a university should have a law school as a way of expressing that awareness.
Second, Yeshiva is under Jewish auspices and the law is very much part
of Jewish tradition.

In Judaism, the bible is called "Torah" and Torah means "the teaching."
And what teaching is it? Primarily legal teaching. Law is very important
to Judaism. The most revered personalities in Jewish history were jurists.
And in the Jewish tradition, you cannot have law without spirit, nor can
you have spirit without law. Because law without spirit becomes harsh and
not very human, and spirit without law becomes anarchic, moody, formlessˇit
is not fixed, it has no structure. So, law gives structure to the metaphysical
quest that is fundamental to religion.

DAVIS: You have written that Dr. Belkin [former president of
YU] convinced you to choose the rabbinate over a career in science. These
two career choices do not seem to be similar. Can you elaborate on why
you chose the rabbinate?

LAMM: They do not seem similar, but they are as far as Yeshiva's
philosophy is concerned. Torah Umadda means Torah and culture. However,
the word madda in modern Hebrew specifically means science.

I always loved science and I always loved learning, studying Talmud.
I couldn't make up my mind which way I wanted to go. My mother, whose family
was heavily rabbinic, said she wanted me to continue the family tradition
in the rabbinate. My father said he wanted me to be a scholar of the Talmud,
but he wanted me to make my living in science.

I had received a four-year scholarship to medical school in Israel tuition
free, and I turned it down because I wasn't interested in medicine. So
the school said, "Okay, we will give you the scholarship in chemistry."
Then I was stuck with a dilemma. Should I stay in the US for the rabbinate,
or go to Israel for chemistry?

My father said go to Israel for chemistry, and my mother said stay here.
I decided that I would go to Dr. Belkin and say to him, "Tell me what I
should do and I shall do it." I didn't want to hear a reason why because
then I might refute it and I would be back in my dilemma. So, Dr. Belkin
told me to stay here. I took Dr. Belkin so seriously that I eventually
came into his office and I am still here.

DAVIS: Would you take a minute to discuss the Jewish tradition
of study for its own sake?

LAMM: I wrote a book called Torah Lishmah or Study
for Its Own Sake that shows how the concept of study developed throughout
the ages and turned into a major theme in the religious polemics of the
late 18th and early 19th centuries and remains current to this day. It
is primarily a work in intellectual history.

In Judaism, there are 613 biblical commandments, and the Talmud says
that the chief commandment of all is study. Judaism is an intellectually
based religion, and the single most important theme is that of study. As
for the motivation for study, there are two traditions. One says it is
imperative to study for its own sake. The other says, yes, it's good to
study for its own sake, but study itself is so important that even if you
do it for the wrong reasons, it will lead to good results, and eventually
you will study for its own sake.

Then, there is the question, "What does Űfor its own sake' mean?" Basically,
it means you study without any kind of ulterior motives. However, as I
mentioned, the tradition comes down in favor of study for its own sake,
even if you begin for self-serving reasons. So, if you take the concept
of study of Torah for its own sake and refract it through the prism of
American secular life, you get the study of law for its own sake, the study
of science for its own sake, philosophy for its own sake, art for its own
sake. It has a consequence in all areas of study.

I like to think that Cardozo represents a non-theological parallel to
the study of Torah for its own sake,
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as do the other schools of the University.
At Cardozo, study of law is part of a larger culture. You can get a law
degree and make a good living, but it is best that you do that having studied
the discipline for its own inherent merit, because you love studying.

I am very
proud of the fact
that there is a deepethical
dimension to the program at Cardozo.

DAVIS: I understand that some of your articles about Jewish law
have influenced American Constitutional law and were actually cited in
two Supreme Court cases.

LAMM: The same article ["The Fifth Amendment and Its Equivalent
in the Halakha"] was cited twice: once at some length by Justice William
O. Douglas [on January 16, 1967] and once by Justice Earl Warren in the
1966 Miranda decision. I wrote on the fifth amendment and compared self-incrimination
in Jewish law, Halakha, to self-incrimination under Constitutional law.
I ended with a psychoanalytical exploration of self-incrimination and showed
that Freud's reasoning for not accepting confessions was anticipated by
800 years by Maimonides, the great Jewish thinker in medieval Spain.

The second article ["The Fourth Amendment and Its Equivalent in the
Halakha"] was on privacy law, which was just coming into being in America
and was a fairly new construct. I showed that privacy was an implicit right
in Jewish law, probably going back to the second or third century, when
it was elaborated on in a legal way. I tried to give some of the philosophical
background to privacy and show that it has some very interesting roots
and parallels. Indeed, the issue goes back to the Bible itself, where a
creditor cannot enter the premises of the debtor and must stand outside
and ask permission to enter. In fact, you cannot invade an individual's
privacy. As a result of this article, I was invited to testify in the Senate
Judiciary Committee on privacy law.

DAVIS: At the March meeting of the Cardozo board, Prof. Suzanne
Stone made a very persuasive argument for the establishment of a Jewish
law program at Cardozo. Your articles and writings seem to be perfect examples
of what can be accomplished with a venture like this.

LAMM: And, of course, its proper place is at Cardozo. I hope
that we can find the backing for it. It would be a very good program to
have in place.

DAVIS: The Wexner Program at RIETS may be a perfect model or
even a microcosm, if you will, of the kind of collaborations that should
be happening University-wide. I know that Leslie Newman, director of legal
writing at Cardozo, taught a writing class at RIETS last semester and Adam
Berner, who graduated from Cardozo and our Mediation Clinic in 1994, is
teaching alternative dispute resolution there this semester. I wonder if
you would tell us about this program, its goals, its successes.

LAMM: The Wexner Program is probably the best example of study
for its own sake. It is for exceptional rabbinic students and for post-rabbinic
students who have already spent at least four years learning without getting
a degree or certification. In the Wexner Program they study in
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a Kollel,
an advanced institute of Talmud. They study day and night, learning in
a program that prepares them to be teachers or pulpit rabbis and ensures
that they are able to function in practical ways. The program offers courses
in writing, communication, conflict resolution, and business ethicsˇan
area of concern in many disciplines.

DAVIS: How have students responded?

LAMM: They are very pleased. It is a fascinating program and
one where you have, at the highest level, a cooperation among our Theological
Seminary and Cardozo and other schools at the University.

DAVIS: There has been a lot of growth and activity at Cardozo.
We have expanded to another floor, and now there is talk of further expansion.
Last year we opened the residence hall. I wonder whether you have a new
vision for the Law School. In what ways would you like to see it change,
or is it on track?

LAMM: I think our vision heretofore has been and should continue
to be to have Cardozo be the kind of law school that we can be proud of.
I would like to see it gain recognition as one of the three best law schools
in New York City.

I would like Cardozo to continue emphasizing law as part of a broader
community of intellect and culture while preparing people to go into the
law with corporations or in private practice, and also in public service.

I am very proud of the fact that there is a deep ethical dimension to
the program at Cardozo. Barry Scheck's Innocence Project is, to me, a source
of great pride. Maimonides taught that it is better that 10 criminals go
free than let one innocent man be executed. The Innocence Project represents
that point of view. I am very pleased by this program and the Bet Tzedek
Legal Services program. They express both a general human ethos and a Jewish
moral conviction and represent the obligation of the legal community to
the community at large. I think they speak well for Cardozo, for the faculty,
the board, and the students.

I would also like to see the alumni become more active in the School,
not only in their fund-raising activities, which are terribly important,
but also for help in directing students and creating a network that is
helpful in placement and in other areas. Most of all, I would like the
alumni to come back and feel that this is their home.
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