P-155: for the love of Jesus, do the LSAT, get your mark and then come back here with your Harvard and Yale talk. You clearly have not done much research on this yet. In all honesty, you are setting yourself up for major disappointment if you think that if you go in 'with a straight mind' having studied you're going to end up in HYS territory - I've seen it happen many times. Plus, if you had actually done research, you would have found out that there really aren't any guarantees at Harvard or Yale, even with amazing grades (3.8 really is not that amazing) and an incredible LSAT.

If it happens, then wonderful - go. But 99 times out of 100, it won't, so don't expect it or come in here citing faceless LSAC statistics talking about what you should be doing to 'plan' for it. Until you get your score all you're doing is deluding yourself with visions of non-existent grandeur.

Buddy with high 70's from Queen's, you've got a B - it would be the same from any other faculty at the university. Face it, those marks are not going to get you into a reasonable law school in the US unless you're a URM or have an incredibly sick LSAT.

Just FYI, I know somebody who did that degree who says that the JD part of that program added NOTHING to her job/career prospects. For Canadian recruiters, it does not add to your resumé to say that you've graduated from one of the crappiest excuses for a law school in the US.

I disagree. Homogeneity is a common and mistaken assumption about the quality of Canadian higher education - there may not be as much variation as there is down south, but there is still a lot more than some people would care to admit (ie Lakehead/Laurentian/Trent vs Queen's/McGill/U of T). There are a number of "universities" up here that are essentially nothing more than glorified community colleges in many ways. Adcomms do recognize this and take that into account, they're pretty used to seeing the quality of students that come out of different institutions. You also see that major variation when you get into the job market - a degree from Lakehead U just doesn't look the same on the ol' resumé for a recruiter.

Additionally, some of the low quality institutions do practice pretty widespread grade inflation up here (Trent is one university that is pretty notorious for that).

The whole crap about Canadians not being prepped in standardized testing so therefore they fare worse on the LSAT is garbage, pure garbage.

Actually, if you look at the LSAC data (www.lsac.org, follow the links under publications), Canadians fare slightly better on the LSAT on average than south of the border. It's true, if you've got 170+ and you've got a chance to go to HYSCCN, you're probably going to go to HYSCCN in many cases, doesn't matter who you are or where you're from.

For every 100 non-ABA approved law degree holders that take the NY bar, a group that includes U of T grads, on average, 36 pass and 64 fail.

You're right, U of T grads as a subset of that larger 100% could very well do better than the average as they may be more intelligent, etc, but that doesn't change the fact that they're included in the non-ABA group. They form a subset of people within that larger group (who may fare better/raise the average, etc). Just like white people form a subset of people who take the LSAT. That's all I'm saying.

It would be interesting if there were stats kept by U of T (or any Canadian school, for that matter) on how their grads fare specifically - whether they're better or worse than the average on the NY bar, which is 36% for people with non-ABA approved degrees, versus 74% overall.

Not comparable? You still don't get it - what I am saying is that U of T is a non-ABA school. That's fact. Yes it is the top law school in Canada, without question, but it is a non-ABA approved school, so it is included in that group. So yes, U of T and non-ABA approved law schools are one and the same.

... you would have to first pass the bar in either one of NY or MA (again, difficult, given the 36% bar passage rate for non-ABA approved degree holders, and yes, that includes everybody who takes it who does not have an ABA JD including Canadians and including U of T students...

This is ridiculous. The bar passage rate for all non-ABA school takers combined gives absolutely no information about what the bar passage rate of students coming from U of Toronto is.

Great reading comp, genius - that sentence means that U of T is included in the larger non-ABA group, not that 36% of U of T grads pass the bar in NY. No, last time I checked, the U of T degree wasn't ABA-approved, although you might be working on different info than the rest of the world.

Wrong on both counts - the bar passage rate in NY for non-ABA JD holders is 36%, and the opportunities for advancement with a Canadian degree in the American market are extremely limited - basically you can get in, maybe, but you're certainly not going to move up quickly, if at all. If flexibility is your top criterion for choosing, then the US wins hands down. Not to say that there aren't other good reasons for staying in Canada for a lot of people, though.

By flexibility, I'm talking about working in either jurisdiction. It is undeniable that a Canadian llb gives you more immediate options in the US, than a US JD gives you in Canada, simply because of the policies of the various provincial bar associations. A person cannot graduate from USD and write the bar in a Canadian province. McGill, U of T, and Osgoode are all recruited by V100 US firms, and send 30 students between them to NYC firms. I don't know what you're talking about when you say "moving up", because no one "moves up" at these firms until they make partner. I don't see why firms like Cravath and SullCrom and Skadden would take a couple of Mcgill and U of T students every year, and actively recruit on campus, if it was impossible for them to "move up."

Nobody's saying it's impossible, it's just extremely difficult because you won't have the same connections as others within the markets where you practice. Let's remember that the ONLY TWO jurisdictions that accept Canadian degrees as equivalent for the purposes of writing the bar are NY and MA - that's it. If you want to go to California (for example), you would have to first pass the bar in either one of NY or MA (again, difficult, given the 36% bar passage rate for non-ABA approved degree holders, and yes, that includes everybody who takes it who does not have an ABA JD including Canadians and including U of T students), and then move to go through the same process in the other jurisdiction. Again, you would still face the same barriers given the fact that you wouldn't have the same connections - it would be the same for a US lawyer coming to practice in Canada. Connections mean a lot in the legal world.

While it might be slightly easier to go with a Canadian degree to the US, the US JD (especially top-ranked) is more recognized internationally and will (with some work) get you a decent job in Canada.

Come on, 30 students between the three schools in NYC, and you say that's evidence of Canadians moving up in the US market??? That's laughable - there are literally hundreds of students that go to NYC for their first jobs as associates every year, merely 30 students between three of the top Canadian schools does not mean that you will have huge opportunities to move up, believe me. Additionally, that figure (if true), only further goes to show that while some firms may recruit in Canada, lots of people don't want to go to the US and the firms won't go as deep into the classes.

I agree, though, if you want to practice in the US for any time at all, study in the US, and vice-versa if you want to practice in Canada. . .