I think it's very unlikely that someone would switch phones just because of this.

You obviously live in America...

My Tribus would indicate otherwise... Although last year it was incorrect, as I was in Hong Kong.

Oh yeah, doh! So you know how crazy it's in Hong Kong at least.

Joel_B wrote:

Jonathan Boyd wrote:

But I suspect that like antenna-gate, this will turn out to be an insignificant event in the long run, compared to the reaction at the time.

This.

I remember how the iPhone 4 (and Apple) was doomed because of people "holding it wrong".

Yeah, but that was only in the US. The story apparently was outside of the US no one was really experiencing that problem or it wasn't a big deal. I don't know what the news was in England (if you were there during Antenna-gate). HK is currently the record holder for the highest density of cell phone connections per user in the world because of the size of the city and density of cell towers. I think I read each person could have 6 individual cell connection to saturate our lines here. Antenna-gate was really more US specific media sensationalistic drama, IMO.

If we're going to talk about framing the argument in the context of Apple's more than 2 decades then it might be worth remembering that it's been 'successful' for more than just a brief moment – unless your bar for success is being the most valuable company in the world in which case none of its competitors have ever been successful (except Microsoft).

No, you're right, I'm not talking about the most valuable company in the world. But I do mean how Apple has dealt with competition in the past, especially up against MS, (and later when it opened the Mac platform, and then closed it off again, etc). A closed platform competing with an open platform hasn't boded well for Apple in the past, and I don't see that being a long term success plan in the future. 2-3 years, drop to below 50% in global market sales for iOS devices? What's your bet? 5 years? A decade of Apple holding a major share of the market?

edit: I should repeat, I'm not saying Apple shouldn't have made their own Maps app. Nor did I say (I didn't make my self clear, and I do apologise) that in iOS 6 Apple should have included two Map apps. What I meant is that on their website, Apple could have encouraged people/nerds/geeks/etc to download the beta Map app and help Apple test and improve their App. A few hundred thousand users helping Apple trouble shoot is better a meme about iOS6 maps being the butt end of jokes. i.e. the image above.=

But then Apple wouln't be Apple because they wouldn't be able to do the dramatic reveal. You're asking them to behave more like Google or Microsoft, but the corporate culture (for better or for worse) is different. What I actually think they should have done, heretical as it may sound, is partner with Microsoft and use Bing maps (while still developing their own).

As for marketshare, things have worked out well on the Mac side in the long run. They may not have the most users, but they make a huge chunk of the profits. Things went wrong for Apple when they were producing dozens of models in every price bracket. Things went well when they reduced the number of products and focussed on being the premium company. Their iOS strategy looks like it's along those lines – a handful of aspirational prdoucts with a premium reputation and great margins. I think they actually have learnt from the past – but the lesson is to not try to be the company with the biggest marketshare.

Now a good argument that arises from thisis that the new maps app doesn't come across as premium yet. The issue is whether that's just Internet nerd rage, or if it will geniuinely damage the brand with consumers before they make necessary improvements. If they can make big improvements within the year, then like antenna-gate, it will turn out to be insignificant. If they don't make those improvements, then I think we will see brand erosion.

Yeah, but that was only in the US. The story apparently was outside of the US no one was really experiencing that problem. But, HK is currently the record holder for the highest density of cell phone connections per user in the world because of the size of the city and density of cell towers. I think I read each person could have 6 individual cell connection to saturate our lines here.

Well, even in the US the problem was a non-issue. There was no mass return of devices and the iPhone 4 was one of the most successful phones.

I think the Maps will end up being an very personal and anecdotal experience, since there seems to be much variance in use-case and quality of maps where you live. For me, I never once used public transit, so that option is a null for me. Street View, I think I used about 3-4 times so while very occasionally nice, it's not a huge problem. I've had the iOS 6 betas and used the navigation on an 1100 trip right alongside my Garmin and it proved to be as accurate and easy to use. Siri and being able to look up stuff on the fly worked very well. It always found gas stations and restaurants when I needed it.

So, for me, the area I live in and things I do, the new Maps are pretty great and I honestly don't miss Google maps at all. Seeing as how it will undoubtedly improve over time, I'm perfectly satisfied. Plus, the hour or so I've spent simply looking at cities in 3D is more fun than anything I ever did in Google maps.

1. All routes now show a realistic time estimate. Before if you had "show traffic" turned on, it only applied to the first route you selected.

2. It shows closed streets in Chicago - it'd be even better if it didn't route through them but it's a first step.

--

I'm with the folks that say Apple had to make this move. Getting a large population using it is the fastest way to improve their data set. Still going to download the Google app if and when it comes out.

I'm not trying to defend Apple Maps saying it's 100x better than Google maps. All I'm saying is that it's a decent transition away from Google Maps for a version 1.0 app. Give Apple 12-18 months and I'll bet it'll be just as good as Google Maps.

I take it you're in the US? The ROW has to deal with cities located in the ocean and other oddities.

I get that Apple is a US company, but they don't seem to have tested this outside of the US at all. I don't really understand how they could fuck it up this bad, as both TomTom and OpenStreetMap don't have these errors.

Oh, and the POIs in Norway is just rubbish, they seem to have used a database that has the registered address of the business as the location, resulting in the local nightclub being located a couple houses from me since the owner lives there Just across the street there's apparently a hotel or something, but the business name indicates it's a company registered to own a taxi.

What they should've done is to release Apple Maps as a beta and base it on OSM so people could easily help improve the dataset. The situation right now is just a mess.

So far as I can tell from using the new Maps app a couple of times, the UK maps are seriously broken.

Satellite images are abysmal and several years out of date (whole housing estates are missing), the road map data is... ropey at best. A lot of local roads are completely mislabelled, some of them have been tagged as the wrong kind of road (dual carriageways coloured as if they were farm tracks, farm tracks coloured as A-roads et cetera) and... well... OpenStreetMaps may have its issues, but at least it's more accurate.

Still, it doesn't matter. I have my Sygic navigation map that is far more accurate and the spoken directions actually make sense and - importantly - if the text-to-speech can't work out how to say a road name, or town name, instead of spouting a burst of gibberish (like Siri does in Maps) it just reads out the road number instead, or stays silent. Actually, that's something else that Siri makes a hash of... if you're in an unfamiliar place, Siri will always read out a road name rather than a road number... which is useless because (at least in the UK) signposts give road numbers, not road names.

Eesh the more I think about it, the worse this whole new Maps app is...

I've been using the new maps out and about for a bit, and they seem pretty accurate here in the Netherlands. (Well, the main train stations in Amsterdam and The Hague are missing...) I also saw at least one instance where Apple's satellite images were more recent than Google's.

But Dutch map accuracy makes sense, because OpenStreetMap managed to import a whole bunch of existing data at some point, and TomTom is a Dutch company.

This, a thousand times. A few cities lost public transportations, the rest of the world gained turn by turn.

Those "few cities" are home to a very large, and growing, portion of the iOS user base. The overwhelming trend today is that more people are moving closer to city centers, and that is especially true among the younger professionals who universally have smartphones.

I really don't need turn-by-turn. I really *do* need walking directions on a daily basis, because driving directions are useless for walking in the city, which is full of freeways, one-way streets, and pedestrian-only paths. If I didn't happen to be a former transit employee I would also need transit directions daily. I feel like this is an out-of-touch decision made by a group of people who all drive to an old-fashioned suburban office park corporate campus.

The new Maps engine is very nice, but it's just an engine -- it has so many functionality problems that I have to vote "bad" at this point. It's bad enough that Apple is in danger of losing my smartphone business at the next upgrade if they don't make major improvements in a hurry, even though I really don't find Android that compelling and am well-entrenched in the Apple ecosystem.

Edit: Walking directions actually work fine. I still think eliminating built-in transit directions is a clueless move, but now I'm quite a bit less angry and somewhat chastened.

This, a thousand times. A few cities lost public transportations, the rest of the world gained turn by turn.

Those "few cities" are home to a very large, and growing, portion of the iOS user base. The overwhelming trend today is that more people are moving closer to city centers, and that is especially true among the younger professionals who universally have smartphones.

I really don't need turn-by-turn. I really *do* need walking directions on a daily basis, because driving directions are useless for walking in the city, which is full of freeways, one-way streets, and pedestrian-only paths. If I didn't happen to be a former transit employee I would also need transit directions daily. I feel like this is an out-of-touch decision made by a group of people who all drive to an old-fashioned suburban office park corporate campus.

The new Maps engine is very nice, but it's just an engine -- it has so many functionality problems that I have to vote "bad" at this point. It's bad enough that Apple is in danger of losing my smartphone business at the next upgrade if they don't make major improvements in a hurry, even though I really don't find Android that compelling and am well-entrenched in the Apple ecosystem.

No offense, but you need walking directions everyday? Really? I mean, most residents know their city well enough that it shouldn't be necessary.

The transit feature was useful for bus schedules. Subways, much less so.

As for improvements, come on. The chances of it remaining in this state are honestly infinitessimal.

No offense, but you need walking directions everyday? Really? I mean, most residents know their city well enough that it shouldn't be necessary.

If you actually walk to a lot of places, you use walking directions not to figure out the basics of how to get there but to figure out the fastest way and compare various possible ways. I navigated my city just fine without a smartphone or a map in the old days, but now I save a lot of time by optimizing walking routes.

Quote:

As for improvements, come on. The chances of it remaining in this state are honestly infinitessimal.

This is the antenna situation all over again.

This is a real problem affecting real and often-used functionality in myriad ways, unlike the antenna situation, which was manufactured hype. And it's a huge problem, not easy to fix. With Apple, big problems either get fixed or they languish indefinitely, depending on the level of management attention they get. This is the biggest problem iOS has faced in years, and yet the very decision to release Maps in this regrettable state makes me fear that management doesn't take it seriously.

Not sure what you're talking about here, because for me walking directions work just fine. Here in The Hague it picks what looks to be the shortest route, using one-way streets in the wrong direction as well as pedestrian-only streets.

Not sure what you're talking about here, because for me walking directions work just fine. Here in The Hague it picks what looks to be the shortest route, using one-way streets in the wrong direction as well as pedestrian-only streets.

After further investigation, you are correct. I have just challenged the system by asking it for a bunch of itineraries in my own city that are impossible by car, and it did fine. I was basing my conclusion on multiple things I've read, and hadn't actually used it since upgrading yesterday.

So far as I can tell from using the new Maps app a couple of times, the UK maps are seriously broken.

Satellite images are abysmal and several years out of date (whole housing estates are missing), the road map data is... ropey at best. A lot of local roads are completely mislabelled, some of them have been tagged as the wrong kind of road (dual carriageways coloured as if they were farm tracks, farm tracks coloured as A-roads et cetera) and... well... OpenStreetMaps may have its issues, but at least it's more accurate..

I think that depends on where you are. I've found a few housing estates that still look like construction sites with Google, but actually exist in Apple's photos.

Though I'm getting increasingly perlexed by some of the search results. Searching for certain roads, even when you specify a town, brings you to the road in another town. It's a bit bizarre.

Google Maps with iOS5: enter bar name, find location, which is near a B/Q subway station. Then I can figure out myself how to get there with subway and walking.

Apple Maps with iOS6: enter bar name, not found. Go to Safari, google bar name, find address, copy address, paste address into Apple Maps, find location. Location is near subway stop. But fucking stupid piece of shit app doesn't say which trains actually stop there. I know the area so I can figure it out myself.

Apple Maps is garbage.

For Hong Kong, I tried one bar address for a lane that is of the side of a well know area in HK. iOS6 Maps found it: I'll have to double check the car route, but on quick glance it seems right; and the walking route also on quick glance seems right. However for the bus routes, it couldn't find any and gave me options to get/buy public transportation routes information from the App store. Apparently the map info for Hong Kong is from Tom Tom, which is strange because even after a day, our beloved Cross Harbour Tunnel is still showing up as a Gloucester Road. I feel really sorry for the iOS6 users driving their cars in Hong Kong and trying to cross Victoria Harbour and driving their cars into the harbour over a road that doesn't exist. On average the police dredges up two bodies a day from the sea/harbour, but I feel iOS6 may have pushed that number up quite a few till Apple fixes the problem. Halloween is coming up in a month, would be funny if (Halloween in Hong Kong is bat shit crazy) if someone dressed up as a iOS6 Map for a costume.

I was hoping the new turn-by-turn navigation would make the new Maps be a net positive for me but after using it a few times I simply must say that it sucks. Again, because I have an iPhone 4 it doesn't support the verbal turn-by-turn instructions.

I don't think that's true. As I indicated above it does not give VERBAL instructions at all. As was indicated in the Ars review. But it does automatically move to the next instruction without me having to swipe it. The problem is it doesn't keep up with you from a distance standpoint and it changes to the next instruction only AFTER you've made your turn. But I suppose given the fine print on that link you provided one really has no recourse since it doesn't list "turn-by-turn" support for the iPhone 4. It doesn't break down what features are and are not supported. I just wish they had left it off ENTIRELY rather than provide a frustrating HALF-ASSED implementation.

Really? That's probably my favorite part of the new app. It's better than the old one, which would follow along with you, but not update the instructions at all. Plus, the default zoom level when following yourself seems to be a lot more useful now. The old one was zoomed in way too much.

Easily, my least favorite part of the new app is that it doesn't remember your route state, so when you switch away from the app for too long, you need to recalculate the route. This particularly sucks if you've since driven out of cell coverage. ><

I don't think that's true. As I indicated above it does not give VERBAL instructions at all. As was indicated in the Ars review. But it does automatically move to the next instruction without me having to swipe it. The problem is it doesn't keep up with you from a distance standpoint and it changes to the next instruction only AFTER you've made your turn. But I suppose given the fine print on that link you provided one really has no recourse since it doesn't list "turn-by-turn" support for the iPhone 4. It doesn't break down what features are and are not supported. I just wish they had left it off ENTIRELY rather than provide a frustrating HALF-ASSED implementation.

OAW

Yeah, that's exactly how it works on the iPhone 4. I didn't think it was going to support TbT either, but after I upgraded my wife's phone I noticed that it offered it so we tried it.

But, she got her new iPhone 5 four hours ago, so we'll try it again on that one. Her 4 is going to my son, who's only 14 and can suck it if he complains about TbT not working well on his bike.

I'm not trying to defend Apple Maps saying it's 100x better than Google maps. All I'm saying is that it's a decent transition away from Google Maps for a version 1.0 app. Give Apple 12-18 months and I'll bet it'll be just as good as Google Maps.

I take it you're in the US? The ROW has to deal with cities located in the ocean and other oddities.

I get that Apple is a US company, but they don't seem to have tested this outside of the US at all. I don't really understand how they could fuck it up this bad, as both TomTom and OpenStreetMap don't have these errors.

Oh, and the POIs in Norway is just rubbish, they seem to have used a database that has the registered address of the business as the location, resulting in the local nightclub being located a couple houses from me since the owner lives there Just across the street there's apparently a hotel or something, but the business name indicates it's a company registered to own a taxi.

What they should've done is to release Apple Maps as a beta and base it on OSM so people could easily help improve the dataset. The situation right now is just a mess.

Yes, I'm in the US here but many people here are also complaining of the same things. So I'm going to assume, for now, that these errors are due to Apple trying to merge inconsistent data from several sources. I mean look at all these companies and datasets they are using. You have one bad set of errors, and *BAM* you have big problems now.

As for Apple Maps being entirely based on OSM, I'm sure they looked into it and realized there was probably too much to fix to get it ready for primetime. From what I've read so far, OSM doesn't offer elevation, geocoding, routing, 3D, and the POIs aren't cleaned up very well either. And to top it all off, they would end up having to share all the fixes they implement which other Map (like Bing, MapQuest, Google, etc) services could use. And I'm sure we all know by now that there's no way Apple would ever want to share map data with Google.

So yes Apple Maps is a mess (except for me, no big issues here, yet). I'm glad most people have been vocal about it and supposedly the Apple Maps team is under "lock down" trying to get some fixes pushed out ASAP. But everyone saying Apple should have stuck to Google Maps isn't thinking of the reasons Apple had to move away from Google. Maybe Google was hoarding things like vector maps and turn-by-turn only for Android phones and demanded search ads be placed in order to get those features which forced Apple to do their own mapping in house. Maybe Apple just hates Google and decided to try to hurt them by removing Google Maps ... and it backfired? Bottom line, this is more competition in the mapping business and I'm all for Apple entering it. Google Maps has a 7 year head start on Apple Maps, so of course it's not going to be as good at first. But now they are grabbing some data point from iPhones, it shouldn't be long before Apple has an adequate answer to Google Maps. /rant

Vectors load fast and render beautifully. Rotating in place and landscape view are godsends and the (admittedly simple) Siri-enabled directions I just tried worked great.

No flyover yet in LA, which surprising, but regular 3D mode looks great.

As an Angeleno, public transit is a non issue, so thumbs up from me.

Yeah, one observation is the Maps app is much much more pleasant to use than on the new iPhone5 than older ones and still somewhat better and faster than on the iPad3 as well. There's no substitution for cubic inches…err newer more powerful cores. Three GPU cores in the iPhone5 according to Anandtech btw.

Vectors load fast and render beautifully. Rotating in place and landscape view are godsends and the (admittedly simple) Siri-enabled directions I just tried worked great.

Edit: Flyover in LA looks awesome. Combined with the ability to rotate the map, it's a worthy replacement for Street View.

As an Angeleno, public transit is a non issue, so thumbs up from me.

Yeah, about the same from me. It's clear the Google maps were more complete, but so far everything I've tried was accurate apart from the underlying TbT map on the iPhone 4. We'll try again on the 5 tonight.

So, the maps are clearly a downgrade, but they're still adequate for my needs so far. That puts me in the camp where I look forward to improvements, but I'm not seeking an alternative.

Much adieu about nothing. You don't have to use Apple maps. Indeed for driving I rarely used it. I have a list of alternatives if anyone is interested.

The thing about antennagate is that it was overblown but did affect people in low signal places quite a bit. (I found the proximity sensor issues in the iPhone 4 a much bigger deal, mind you, but that didn't get hyped at all) So I think the parallel to antennagate is pretty apt. Actually if anything that's too strong given there are free workarounds for most of the issues.

Cool, thanks for that link, Clark. I've (mostly) bit my tongue on the map issue, but I neither like the maps themselves, or the interface of the new app, so I'm actively reviewing a permanent replacement or replacements. Your list presents some unique options that would allow me to piece together a new "suite" of apps that would give me everything I want, and more.

I was hoping the new turn-by-turn navigation would make the new Maps be a net positive for me but after using it a few times I simply must say that it sucks. Again, because I have an iPhone 4 it doesn't support the verbal turn-by-turn instructions.

I don't think that's true. As I indicated above it does not give VERBAL instructions at all. As was indicated in the Ars review. But it does automatically move to the next instruction without me having to swipe it. The problem is it doesn't keep up with you from a distance standpoint and it changes to the next instruction only AFTER you've made your turn. But I suppose given the fine print on that link you provided one really has no recourse since it doesn't list "turn-by-turn" support for the iPhone 4. It doesn't break down what features are and are not supported. I just wish they had left it off ENTIRELY rather than provide a frustrating HALF-ASSED implementation.

OAW

Came to correct myself on that, just saw that semi turn by turn functionality mentioned on MacRumors. Kind of weird that they'd explicitly say no turn by turn on 4 but still include that limited version. It'd be pretty similar to how I use my car's navigation actually...I turn the voice prompts off cause they repeat every x feet and gets annoying as hell.

johnsonwax wrote:

Ironically, one of the better map alternatives on iOS might be Bing.

I'm semi surprised they didn't partner up with MS in some fashion. They're competitors of course but they appear to be willing to deal with each other, unlike whatever is going on with Google and their partners.

I'm semi surprised they didn't partner up with MS in some fashion. They're competitors of course but they appear to be willing to deal with each other, unlike whatever is going on with Google and their partners.

There were a slew of others they could have gone with rather than Tom Tom. Honestly I'm surprised they didn't go the Waze route considering they use them elsewhere a lot. Of course I'm also surprised a lot of these issues didn't come up in the extensive betas. Heck, they could have put out a web page for people to check maps in their area for a month or two before going live.