I originally posted this in Sylvie's thread introducing Bree as her latest adoption.

I was hoping to get some opinions from all the knowledgable raw feeders on this forum.

Quote:

Originally Posted by rainbow

I don't feed raw but I know there is a lot of controversy on the internet about not feeding with kibble because of the different digestion rates.

According to Lew Olsen who has a PHD in Nutrition and owns the b-naturals.com website and also the K-9 Nutrition website it is fine to feed both kibble and raw together as long as the raw does not contain any bone.

I have some information about it saved from one of her newsletters and will go find it and then post it here.

Raw foods can be added to either commercial food or home cooked foods during the transition to a raw diet. The only exception would be the raw meaty bones, which should be fed separate from dry dog food. While many dogs do fine with this, some dogs don’t do quite as well as the bones compete with the digestion of the dry food. Gastric juices are excreted on the lining of the stomach and both foods, being heavy, gravitate to this area. This can cause some undigested food to be present in the stool. So, you can mix muscle meat and organ meat with kibble, but feed raw meaty bones as a separate meal from kibble for the first few weeks. Instructions for feeding a raw diet can be found here: http://www.b-naturals.com/May2006.php

Lew, I've noticed a couple of times that you've mentioned that you
can add raw to kibble but not RMBs? Can you explain why to me? My RM
currently is feeding mostly kibble, some canned food and chicken
backs to his 5 mo. old Gr. Pyr. Is this bad for him? And if so, can
you explain it to me in a way that I can easily explain to my
roommate?

Sometimes the kibble can block the digestion of bones. Basically the stomach churns and the 'heavier' bits go to the stomach wll to be digested. Sometimes the kibble gets in the way.

I have heard that if you feed raw and kibble you should feed one meal
of raw and one meal of kibble. Is there any truth to this? I'm not
sure if he's currently doing this or not.

Nah, you can raw food to kibble, just don't add bones. Feed those separate.

Lew

And, another one that was answered by Mary Straus who used to be a moderator there but now owns the dogaware.com website and writes articles for the Whole Dog Journal http://onibasu.com/archives/kn/150921.html ....

Quote:
I've just started adding raw to my dog's kibble based on Lew's newsletter. She's 85 lbs but needs to lose a few - probably 6-8 lbs. I'm starting with 1-1/2 times the amounts listed for a 50 lb dog (listed in the newsletter). The amounts listed for a 50 lb dog are 1/4 c kibble and 1/4 c meat, 1 egg and 2 T of yogurt plus supplements. So based on my calculations, my dog should be fed 1/2 c of kibble and 3 oz of meat plus an egg and 3 T of yogurt, along with some supplements. That just doesn't look like much food at all.

Because different kibbles vary quite a bit in terms of their calorie content, what I usually recommend when combining kibble and raw food is to calculate how much of each you would feed if that were all you were feeding, then use a percentage of that amount based on how you divide the diet up.

In other words, if the kibble you're using recommends feeding 3 cups a day to a 78 lb dog, and you are feeding half kibble and half raw, then feed 1 1/2 cups of kibble, plus the raw.

Rule of thumb for feeding a raw diet is 2-3% of the dog's ideal body weight daily, which would be around 25-37 ounces a day. Again, if you're feeding half raw and half kibble, then you would feed half that amount, or 12-18 ounces a day. Since you want your dog to lose weight, I'd start on the low side and give 12 ounces a day.

So you're right, it looks like you're feeding a lot less than your dog needs (the newsletter amounts appear better suited to a 25 lb dog than a 50 lb dog). Increase the amounts to what I've listed above, and then keep a close eye on your dog's weight, adjusting up or down as needed. What you want is a slow, steady weight loss, no drastic changes. If you need to reduce the amount you're feeding, drop it about 10% at a time, then check his weight again in a couple of weeks and continue to adjust until you see a slow, steady weight loss, then stay at that amount.

I have never combined raw and kibble because i read and was told that since kibble is slower to digest, it can lead to raw food lingering more than appropriate in the digestive tract and therefore starting to spoil and breed bacteria. Raw digests quickly in dogs and hence why dogs can eat all that meat without worrying about the bacteria in it - kibble blocking the raw from properly digesting is suposedly negating dog's ability to quickly digest raw.

Thats the info i got when i was switching from raw to kibble.... personally, i am not aware of any benefits/reasons for mixing...

I have never combined raw and kibble because i read and was told that since kibble is slower to digest, it can lead to raw food lingering more than appropriate in the digestive tract and therefore starting to spoil and breed bacteria. Raw digests quickly in dogs and hence why dogs can eat all that meat without worrying about the bacteria in it - kibble blocking the raw from properly digesting is suposedly negating dog's ability to quickly digest raw.

Thats the info i got when i was switching from raw to kibble.... personally, i am not aware of any benefits/reasons for mixing...

I have heard the same information as you Masha. The info you posted is interesting though, rainbow.

For me it's just easier/more simple to feed all the dogs their RAW diet in the morning, and the kibble at night. I get confused as it is with all the supplements, meds, etc. with the four of them just feeding one type, never mind trying to mix the two!

But I have always been told the same info as Masha stated. I think I would be weary to mix the 2 for this very reason...

"Many of the Earth's habitats, animals, plants, insects, and even micro-organisms that we know as rare may not be known at all by future generations. We have the capability, and the responsibility. We must act before it is too late." - Dalai Lama

I commented in your first post on this topic but I'll copy it to here as well.

Quote:

Interesting that the raw and kibble together controversy has come up here. It's being discussed on another forum I visit and no one can come up with any science to back up the notion that they are bad together. Certainly the idea that they digest at different rates and that one holds up the other is disputed. Several folks seem to be feeding raw and kibble in the same meal just fine. I think it's going to be like corn in dog food, OK for some, not for others. Or the notion of switching foods gradually, again, required for some, not for others.

The info. posted above on what people "heard" and "read" is what I have encountered as well. Though I have since found several sites that state the idea of different rates of digestion somehow holding up one (or the other) component of the food is "nonsense" and a "myth". Neither side has been backed by research by someone accredited to do so. I'm going to look into Rainbow's source of information as soon as I can.

Not really, not any good science. I've found people with science backgrounds who scoff at the idea one item of food is held up in it's digestion by another. I've found lots of folks who have mixed kibble and raw successfully for years and lots who say they had problems. I think Rainbow's Lew Olsen is the most credible in the area of feeding dogs that I've found yet.

some dogs don’t do quite as well as the bones compete with the digestion of the dry food. Gastric juices are excreted on the lining of the stomach and both foods, being heavy, gravitate to this area.

I haven't been able to find any research to back this up...I wonder why Lew Olsen didn't reference this comment to some research, especially seeing she has a PhD in nutrition, no?

Quote:

Sometimes the kibble can block the digestion of bones. Basically the stomach churns and the 'heavier' bits go to the stomach wll to be digested. Sometimes the kibble gets in the way.

I've seen undigested bone in stool when not fed with kibble. What's competing with it's digestion in that case ?

Quote:

Originally Posted by rainbow

I am inclined however to believe Lew Olsen since she has a PHD in nutrition.

I guess I'm a little wary of titles . She has a Masters in Social Work with a PhD in Nutrition (University of Texas), her specialty is canine digestion....but there's no veterinary studies at the UoT..I haven't found where she received this specialty from yet. Does anyone else know?

She could very well be right but I'd rather be safe than sorry until I've seen some research that proves otherwise .

__________________
"Education is a progressive discovery of our own ignorance." -Will Durant

A lot of people here posted valuable information. Yes both foods don't digest at the same rate, and more importantly different digestive enzymes are needed to digest either food so more energy is used in trying to complete the digestive process.

The prime reason however to never mix raw food with kibble, is because ALL kibble is flavoured with rendered fats. These fats are located on the outside of the kibble and are very very very subject to bacteria growth, so if you had some kibble laying on raw meat in a warm environment, it wouldn't take very long for the kibble to start to grow unwanted bacteria.

Same holds true with moisture. If for any reason your kibble gets exposed to moisture/ water overnight or for any great length of time, toss it.!

Naturally when the dog becomes ill, it's the raw meat that will get the blame.... not the kibble! So please always avoid mixing the two together.

As stated in my original post, I do not feed raw but am curious about the contoversy of this topic and since I admire and trust the knowledge of the experienced raw feeders we have here I decided to ask your opinions.

Lew Olsen has her own website, a yahoo group forum and has just published a book, so she has the ability to influence a lot of people. Since there are many people who also don't know who to believe, I would appreciate if you both would contact her with your questions and/or opinions and knowledge and then let us know here. I would do it myself but since I do not have enough knowledge about raw feeding I do not have the confidence in my ability to discuss this matter with her.

Everyone and their mothers can write books on what they believe or what they practice. You can, I can.
It's not about believing. It's about understanding the nature of who and what a dog or cat is, what their origins are, and what their purpose is.

With a "natural diet", always look towards Mother Nature, then you rarely, if ever, have problems. In a natural world kibble would not exist, yet dogs surely would, so would cats and a host of other animals we sequester for our own personal needs.

I keep telling people this. It's not a rocket science. We have to STOP thinking like humans and START think like a dog. IF you do this all of your feeding problems will be over. Always, always, always follow Mother Nature's plan.

Exactly how I base my food . It boils down to common sense and doing research on the needs of each species.

Quote:

Originally Posted by MerlinsHope

Everyone and their mothers can write books on what they believe or what they practice. You can, I can.
It's not about believing. It's about understanding the nature of who and what a dog or cat is, what their origins are, and what their purpose is.

With a "natural diet", always look towards Mother Nature, then you rarely, if ever, have problems. In a natural world kibble would not exist, yet dogs surely would, so would cats and a host of other animals we sequester for our own personal needs.

I keep telling people this. It's not a rocket science. We have to STOP thinking like humans and START think like a dog. IF you do this all of your feeding problems will be over. Always, always, always follow Mother Nature's plan.