taught Blizzard challenging content + random matchmaking does not work. This is why LFD, LFS, LFR are easy by default and become a joke once you outgear it (almost everyone who queues now outgears it).

That's true but in TBC there was no LFD/LFR whatever. I'm not saying to scrap LFD/LFR but instead to make the 5m / Scenario stuff additional content that does not provide automated LFG. Cata had different problems, the 5mans in cata were not worth it. The items were boring & outgeared too quick due to the bad justice/valor system back then. With the new (old) Groupfinder it might be like in old times when we did /who 70 and then moved on to clear stuff. It's just an additional path of progression like in the past when epics were on same ilvl as blues BUT provided far more stats / DPS and a ilvl105 epic was actually an upgrade over a 115 blue. As it stands heroic scenarios in 5.3 were at that place - providing more ilvl than LFR but less than normal raiding with some challenging aspects in it. BUT the items were stupid rng & very boring. Think of harder 5mans (let's call it mythic since challenge mode is too different as a mode) instead, where this ilvl would have dropped & some scenarios that make some kind of upgrade item available (doesn't have to be as powerful as burden of eternity)... Suddenly the whole content would become interesting - a dungeon set to get, viable catch-ups without being forced into random raid groups (with people who don't take it serious / BECAUSE the items there aren't doing enough to enchant them properly) and some kind of progress where your new wepon out of that instance actually makes a difference compared to LFR where you are one of 25 ppl and don't really make a difference on the minimal itemlvl required. LFR is some "yeah I wanna raid with a raidgroup and have some epic battles going on eh" and not making gearing up completely pointless with the "I'll replace it soon and for the catchup it doesn't make a difference"-mentality. The catchup system should be a progression path and not some chore to do. You might not even have to get full gear of this additional 5/3man content but it will help you out in the raid you're aiming for (ToT with 510 or 520 + some dungeon set bonus / nice trinket or without....) and more interestingly it will provide the endcontent for many casuals who won't raid WITHOUT that endcontent being random group stuff.

That's true but in TBC there was no LFD/LFR whatever. I'm not saying to scrap LFD/LFR but instead to make the 5m / Scenario stuff additional content that does not provide automated LFG. Cata had different problems, the 5mans in cata were not worth it. The items were boring & outgeared too quick due to the bad justice/valor system back then. With the new (old) Groupfinder it might be like in old times when we did /who 70 and then moved on to clear stuff. It's just an additional path of progression like in the past when epics were on same ilvl as blues BUT provided far more stats / DPS and a ilvl105 epic was actually an upgrade over a 115 blue. As it stands heroic scenarios in 5.3 were at that place - providing more ilvl than LFR but less than normal raiding with some challenging aspects in it. BUT the items were stupid rng & very boring. Think of harder 5mans (let's call it mythic since challenge mode is too different as a mode) instead, where this ilvl would have dropped & some scenarios that make some kind of upgrade item available (doesn't have to be as powerful as burden of eternity)... Suddenly the whole content would become interesting - a dungeon set to get, viable catch-ups without being forced into random raid groups (with people who don't take it serious / BECAUSE the items there aren't doing enough to enchant them properly) and some kind of progress where your new wepon out of that instance actually makes a difference compared to LFR where you are one of 25 ppl and don't really make a difference on the minimal itemlvl required. LFR is some "yeah I wanna raid with a raidgroup and have some epic battles going on eh" and not making gearing up completely pointless with the "I'll replace it soon and for the catchup it doesn't make a difference"-mentality. The catchup system should be a progression path and not some chore to do. You might not even have to get full gear of this additional 5/3man content but it will help you out in the raid you're aiming for (ToT with 510 or 520 + some dungeon set bonus / nice trinket or without....) and more interestingly it will provide the endcontent for many casuals who won't raid WITHOUT that endcontent being random group stuff.

Mythic Dungeons would still be outgeared. Even Challenge Modes are being outgeared as it is due to gem sockets on gear. If we want challenging content, Challenge Mode would suffice. Of course the current Challenge Modes are the first iteration and they are a lot about chain AoE CC, zerg, and fat AoE instead of single target CC and interrupt (like MSP 2nd boss). Boss fights are all easier than the most difficult trash packs. They're also not about gear (which means they attract a lot less people, but that also makes the transmog more unique) and contain the time limit which some find unattractive. We're yet to see how CMs in 6.0 look like.

Scenarios should be changed so you can do them while leveling. Biggest mistake about their introduction in MoP was the lack of ability to do them while leveling, especially since most of them were supposed to tell the lore of the different zones. (i.e. Kunlai Kicker scenario should have been available at 87 when you could quest in Kunlai)

I like them and wish they would stay. That said, they make sense at the start of an x-pac while levelling and as heroics between hitting max lv and the first raids.

I do like more 5 mans a sthe xpac progresses (like ICC and HoT) but it feels like there is no clean solution what purpose they serve.

- should they be ball breaking hard so only hardmode raiders can crack them and drop raid equivalent loot?
- should they be somewhat hard, doable for Pugs and drop raid equivilant loot as a catch up mechanism - and be a slap in the face of all raiders?
- should they drop sidegrades and badges?

- - - Updated - - -

I may be pointing out the obvious, but you still have the option to form your groups, and avoid the "wipe fest LFR like thing" - and that is called flex raiding.

I will admit that there are no hard 5 mans, but being able to form your own group has always been there.

Don't understand the part of slap in the face of the raiders, how does it offend them people getting geared trough dungeons? If they cleared the previous tier, should eveyone else be forced to just they can feel better about themselves?

Really? You want a reward for killing an orc? As in fame and riches and noble steeds? Back in my day killing orcs WAS the reward! Gunny

Originally Posted by Darsithis

No they don't. I have yet to see anyone who raids LFR complain that LFR drops gear of lesser value than normal/heroic (heroic/mythic), but all I hear is raiders in heroic/mythic bitching about people in LFR getting any rewards.

I havent even done all the scenarios. Even as "heroic" they are fairly non-engaging with a large part being because they are not holy-trinity content and more about hack and slash with like two other people in what is effectively an instance small group questing environment. I also dont like to DPS on my druid anymore so it is all the more unappealing. Just because I like healing doesnt mean I want to raid or do PVP and if I want to raid I am not doing LFR.

Don't understand the part of slap in the face of the raiders, how does it offend them people getting geared trough dungeons? If they cleared the previous tier, should eveyone else be forced to just they can feel better about themselves?

That seems to be the general opinion of at least part of the vocal minority; a return to the days when most of your players were stuck in the first tier while the "good" players were on further tiers that the majority would never even see.

That seems to be the general opinion of at least part of the vocal minority; a return to the days when most of your players were stuck in the first tier while the "good" players were on further tiers that the majority would never even see.

Because you running around T3 while the casual and bad bunch are running around in T1 or still lvling up makes you more distinctive look special versus having a full HC gearset while the casual and bad bunch are running around in a LFR version of it. I bet a lot of LFR hatred also stems from that.

Heroic scenarios are so successful that they had to make them the fastest source of valor in the game just to get people to do them. That's not very successful at all. And even though they're the fastest way to grind valor, my guild can't get 3 people to grind out the 7 per week for repair money. We have hundreds of members, yet nobody wants to run scenarios.

Heroic scenarios are so successful that they had to make them the fastest source of valor in the game just to get people to do them. That's not very successful at all. And even though they're the fastest way to grind valor, my guild can't get 3 people to grind out the 7 per week for repair money. We have hundreds of members, yet nobody wants to run scenarios.

Scenarios should be changed so you can do them while leveling. Biggest mistake about their introduction in MoP was the lack of ability to do them while leveling, especially since most of them were supposed to tell the lore of the different zones. (i.e. Kunlai Kicker scenario should have been available at 87 when you could quest in Kunlai)

Beyond that, no, I like having 5-mans.

I probably would have done more scenarios if they was available while leveling. Would have also added another mix up to the few pathetic-dungeons available while leveling.

I'm hoping that 5-mans will play a bigger role in WoD. The lack of them, and the absence of new ones, in the current expansion has been one of the few things I've really disliked about it. Because whether I'm a raider which I was originally from Vanilla -> WLK, or a more casual player which I have been since Cata, I always enjoyed the small group content a lot more than the raid content. It's fun for me, it's something that I can do with my casual friends, and I enjoy it. Scenarios have been a huge letdown for me. I've run each of them once and that's about it. I've run maybe a dozen heroic scenarios? They're ... just ... blah. Horrible replacement for a 5-man, and I think Blizzard realized that. Wish they'd have realized it sooner.

I honestly miss decent 5-man content. Things like the Twilight heroics in Cata, ToC/ICC heroics in WLK, MgT in BC, etc. Those were fun even if I outgeared them, which I did. They were still interesting. The 5-mans we got for MoP were ridiculous. It felt like I overgeared them when I was in greens and blues, could completely ignore mechanics (lol) in greens and blues, never came close to wiping in any of them even when I didn't know them yet. And now? Now it's like "Run straight to boss, fight boss plus trash, get free valor." - I think for a lot of them you could just put all the trash and all the bosses in one convenient pile and AoE them down with no problem.

I honestly miss decent 5-man content. Things like the Twilight heroics in Cata, ToC/ICC heroics in WLK, MgT in BC, etc. Those were fun even if I outgeared them, which I did. They were still interesting. The 5-mans we got for MoP were ridiculous. It felt like I overgeared them when I was in greens and blues, could completely ignore mechanics (lol) in greens and blues, never came close to wiping in any of them even when I didn't know them yet.

If you were all running around in 440 ilvl you could not ignore the mechanics. You had to follow them.

The MoP dungeons were never as hard as the Cata dungeons pre-nerf at launch but the MoP dungeons weren't the most difficult content. Before I had full epic gear from raiding I was already running around doing them Challenge Modes (and this was a lot harder than it currently is for two reasons: 1) less gem slots 2) I played a Shadow Priest and this was not a good spec in start of MoP). Another reason is gap between the next content: after MoP dungeons came LFR whereas after Cata dungeons came normal raid.

I very much disagree with your opinion about the DS dungeons. People complain about DS itself but I found the dungeons pretty shit too. And it wasn't tuning. I played them on PTR where gear was scaled down to 353 ilvl (ZA/ZG ilvl). Then again, I did not like ZA/ZG dungeons much either, but I did like the Cata dungeons (pre-nerf). It goes to show its all quite subjective.

I think for a lot of them you could just put all the trash and all the bosses in one convenient pile and AoE them down with no problem.

If all just dinged (= start of MoP) no way in hell you can pull complete MSP trash before first boss and AoE it down in a LFD PuG. You're being unrealistic here.

If you just reached max level they are amazing to gear up especially at the start of an expansion. (Not counting Timeless Isle)
For farming Justice and Valor points they are still nice. But Scenarios are probably better.

Personally I think 5 mans are vital. The way they've totally abandoned any interest in maintaining 5 man content this expansion is a large part of why I've stopped playing.

I hope they'll bring back cataclysm-level 5 mans for WoD, and keep producing new ones with each tier. It's not difficult to think of many simple ways of maintaining their relevancy throughout an expansion's entire lifespan. Even if you end up outgearing the earlier ones fast, as long as you still want to do them for some reason (such as the reasons that you want to do scenarios today; scaling rewards, point-rewards, lesser charms, etc.), and they're not so simplistic that you can literally solo them in the same tier gear as they were released during, so that you're not bored out of your mind while doing them, they'll still be pretty fun.

I could go on into a diatribe about how I think meaningful medium-sized group content is also very important for the game, but I'm not in the mood, because I don't expect they care at this point. What I *do* expect is that they'll maintain the MoP model of marginalizing 5 mans to the point where they may as well just be removed from the game.

Yes but how does Blizzard define "hit" ? I guess a large number of people are doing them because they are a fast and easy way to get valor. Do those people think they are as much fun as dungeons ? Who knows. People will always chose the most efficient way and Blizzard only seems to look at the numbers.

Yes but how does Blizzard define "hit" ? I guess a large number of people are doing them because they are a fast and easy way to get valor. Do those people think they are as much fun as dungeons ? Who knows. People will always chose the most efficient way and Blizzard only seems to look at the numbers.

Yes, blizzard makes a lot of strange statements about what they think is good about the game.

For example, when they made heroic dungeon dailies into weeklies, everybody loved it. Then they reverted it because they noticed that people were doing 5 mans less as a result. Why were they doing 5 mans less? Because they got more valor out of each 5 man on average, and could just knock them out really fast in one setting with a good group, so they didn't have to do tons of them randomly at less convenient times for lower valor rewards.

So they changed it back.

Basically, what the players want is less important than... what exactly? How many people do a certain type of content? What kind of measure of success is that? It may be better in the short-term... but in the long term people are going to burn out if they don't enjoy themselves.

But it's not surprising that they'd consider scenarios a success by that metric. Of course people are going to prefer to do the content that most cost efficiently rewards them with valor points. That doesn't necessarily mean that they wouldn't rather be doing something else, if there were valid alternatives.