Wal-Mart Stores Inc., Target Corp. and other large retailers are ratcheting up a political campaign to force Amazon.com Inc. to collect sales taxes, sensing opportunity in the budget crises gripping statehouses nationwide.

The big-box stores are backing a coalition called the Alliance for Main Street Fairness, which is leading efforts to change sales-tax laws in more than a dozen states including Texas and California.

Wal-Mart Stores Inc., Target Corp. and other large retailers are ratcheting up a political campaign to force Amazon.com Inc. to collect sales taxes, sensing opportunity in the budget crises gripping statehouses nationwide.

The big-box stores are backing a coalition called the Alliance for Main Street Fairness, which is leading efforts to change sales-tax laws in more than a dozen states including Texas and California.

Say what? What competitive advantage? If I'm based in NH where there is no sales tax, and you order from me in Massachusetts, why is it my responsibility to collect Massachusetts taxes? It's not. It's actually YOUR responsibility to pay the state what you owe. Plus, the only thing supporting this measure does, is screw the consumer. It will be people like me who end up paying more. Why should I pay more to benefit some multi-billion dollar corporation like Walmart? **** them.

This reminds me of the "satellite" tax states like Massachusetts have imposed on companies like Direct TV, at the behest of $180 per month bill to their average consumer Comcast. As usual us sheep are the one's that suffer at the behest, and financial gain of scum companies like Comcast, Verizon, and Walmart. Screw them!

...why is it my responsibility to collect Massachusetts taxes? It's not. It's actually YOUR responsibility to pay the state what you owe. ..

Click to expand...

Thank you.

why are companies de facto tax collection arms of various levels of government?

(getting OT here, but: Do you know what a mess it is to try to adhere to all sales tax laws? This isn't limited just to states -- there are counties and cities that also impose their own sales taxes.

And, then, determining exactly what is and is not taxable often is a grey area, at best.

Think you can then go to the source? Good luck. When you finally do reach somebody at a state tax department or city tax department, and start asking them about details of their sales tax code, your odds of getting a clear answer are somewhere approaching zero.

Think you can go to prefessionals, be it attorneys or accountants? Well, you can, but the cost is prohibitive for anything that goes beyond the surface.

And software packages? Sure -- but they're only as good as the information that goes in, so you're still left determining what is and is not taxable, the cost is high and obviouasly all rates are subject to change.

why are companies de facto tax collection arms of various levels of government?

(getting OT here, but: Do you know what a mess it is to try to adhere to all sales tax laws? This isn't limited just to states -- there are counties and cities that also impose their own sales taxes.

And, then, determining exactly what is and is not taxable often is a grey area, at best.

Think you can then go to the source? Good luck. When you finally do reach somebody at a state tax department or city tax department, and start asking them about details of their sales tax code, your odds of getting a clear answer are somewhere approaching zero.

Think you can go to prefessionals, be it attorneys or accountants? Well, you can, but the cost is prohibitive for anything that goes beyond the surface.

And software packages? Sure -- but they're only as good as the information that goes in, so you're still left determining what is and is not taxable, the cost is high and obviouasly all rates are subject to change.

(Yeah, this is a topic that annoys me just a bit...))

Click to expand...

The SCOTUS ruled on this in 1992.

Amazon Tax Attacks

Mar. 15 2011 - 9:56 am
By ROBERT W. WOOD

If you buy something from Amazon, Overstock or another online retailer, will you be stung with sales tax? Itâs often hard to tell until youâve nearly finished checking out and see your total. And it looks like itâs about to get harder.

One watershed was last weekâs enactment of Illinoisâ Amazon tax, but it clearly wonât be the last. See Illinois Governor Signs Amazon Internet Sales Tax Law. Illinoisâ new law requires online merchants to collect Illinoisâ 6.25% sales tax if the merchant has affiliate sellers in Illinois. Illinoisâ Mainstreet Fairness Bill was signed March 10th.

Outer Bounds of Nexus. When people talk of sales tax, they often mean use tax and vice versa. They are two sides of a coin with the same rates. The distinction seems unimportant if you hope to pay neither. But as weâll see, thatâs getting more and more difficult.

Sales and use tax are almost always paid by the buyer, but the only effective collection mechanism is getting the seller to collect it. The states have been aggressive for decades, but the U.S. Constitution prevents states from taxing âinterstate commerce.â That means no state can force an out-of-state merchant to collect or pay sales/use tax unless it has a ânexusâ in the state.

In the past, most battles have been about catalog companies and how much nexus is enough. In 1992, in Quill Corp. v. North Dakota, the U.S. Supreme Court ruled that a business had to be physically present in a state before it was required to collect use tax. Merely shipping into a state wasnât enough.

Sleeping Giant. The elephant in the room is use tax. The loud debate over Amazon taxes would be a whisper if people paid their use tax. You are subject to your stateâs use tax when you order out of state and have the item shipped into your state. Thereâs no constitutional prohibition.

In effect, your state can tax you as if you bought the item at your local store. For decades, you âshouldâ have been reporting your catalog, phone and now online purchases. While states historically didnât enforce use tax except against businesses, thatâs changing. Many state income tax forms now attempt to collect use tax.

Click to expand...

When I bought my jeep in 2005, I did so from a dealer in NH. NH, in some impossible, and unimaginable way, has no state sales tax (how do they manage!?!). So I paid the agreed to price, period. Well, when I went to register my jeep in Taxachusetts, I had to pay the state of TAX, I mean MASS, the then 5% sales tax. GROSS. Oh, then I had to pay an excise tax too. What a place.

When I bought my jeep in 2005, I did so from a dealer in NH. NH, in some impossible, and unimaginable way, has no state sales tax (how do they manage!?!). So I paid the agreed to price, period. Well, when I went to register my jeep in Taxachusetts, I had to pay the state of TAX, I mean MASS, the then 5% sales tax. GROSS. Oh, then I had to pay an excise tax too. What a place.

Click to expand...

There are some very big misconceptions about NH being tax free. The meal tax in NH is 9% as is the rental car tax.

I lived in NH from 2002-2006 and not only were the property taxes out of control so were the taxes to register my car every year. I paid a ridiculous amount to the State as well as the Town I lived in. Those taxes made the excise tax I pay in Mass look downright cheap.

Say what? What competitive advantage? If I'm based in NH where there is no sales tax, and you order from me in Massachusetts, why is it my responsibility to collect Massachusetts taxes? It's not. It's actually YOUR responsibility to pay the state what you owe. Plus, the only thing supporting this measure does, is screw the consumer. It will be people like me who end up paying more. Why should I pay more to benefit some multi-billion dollar corporation like Walmart? **** them.

This reminds me of the "satellite" tax states like Massachusetts have imposed on companies like Direct TV, at the behest of $180 per month bill to their average consumer Comcast. As usual us sheep are the one's that suffer at the behest, and financial gain of scum companies like Comcast, Verizon, and Walmart. Screw them!

Click to expand...

My point in this thread is that an internet co. doesn't deserve a competitive advantage that "no sales tax" affords them. They or consumers should be subject to the same laws that brick & mortar retailers must adhere to. If you sell to buyers in states with sales taxes, then the sales taxes must be paid one way or the other.

Now I'm one of those old-fashioned folks that doesn't want Americans to end up staying in their homes to shop. We're already becoming a less social society that oftens prefers to email or text rather than pick up the phone and actually talk with a real human...In my opinion, that's very sad.

My point in this thread is that an internet co. doesn't deserve a competitive advantage that "no sales tax" affords them. They or consumers should be subject to the same laws that brick & mortar retailers must adhere to. If you sell to buyers in states with sales taxes, then the sales taxes must be paid one way or the other.

Now I'm one of those old-fashioned folks that doesn't want Americans to end up staying in their homes to shop. We're already becoming a less social society that oftens prefers to email or text rather than pick up the phone and actually talk with a real human...In my opinion, that's very sad.

Click to expand...

People shop from home for a whole lot more reasons than simply saving sales tax. I doubt very highly that if Amazon suddenly started charging state sales taxes that any less people would shop there. That's not the "draw."

The draw is not having to put gas in the car, not having to drive a crowded highway, find a parking place in a crowded mall, walk through a crowded mall, try to find the exact item you want and then find out it is either not stocked or is out of stock, stand in a long line waiting to pay for it, carry it back to the car, drive back home, carry it in the house, etc..

People shop on line for the convenience of it, not necessarily to save a dollar or two in sales tax (which is all it's going to amount to if you're simply talking a few books or a DVD.)

Even with an on-line state calculated sales tax added they'd still be saving time, effort, energy, and yes, money.

There are some very big misconceptions about NH being tax free. The meal tax in NH is 9% as is the rental car tax.

I lived in NH from 2002-2006 and not only were the property taxes out of control so were the taxes to register my car every year. I paid a ridiculous amount to the State as well as the Town I lived in. Those taxes made the excise tax I pay in Mass look downright cheap.

Click to expand...

I can't speak to what property taxes amount to, or how they relate to Mass taxes, so I don't know what "out of control" truly means. I currently pay $6,400 in property taxes each year and I don't think that's cheap. That's after I ship 5% or so of my income to the state.

My point in this thread is that an internet co. doesn't deserve a competitive advantage that "no sales tax" affords them. They or consumers should be subject to the same laws that brick & mortar retailers must adhere to. If you sell to buyers in states with sales taxes, then the sales taxes must be paid one way or the other.

Now I'm one of those old-fashioned folks that doesn't want Americans to end up staying in their homes to shop. We're already becoming a less social society that oftens prefers to email or text rather than pick up the phone and actually talk with a real human...In my opinion, that's very sad.

Click to expand...

How is it a competitive advantage? Maybe Walmart and Target should go after the state for imposing the tax to begin with. Plus, the tax is part of doing physical business inside that state. Walmart is free to move it's operation to a non taxing state and sell to people like me online, just like amazon does. Amazon isn't a brick a mortar store. It is an etailer. Walmart is on the same playing field with the Target down the street. If someone want something now, they can get in their car and go get it at either store. If I want the same product for a better price, then I'm free to order online at the cost of having to wait for it. Of course, none of this truly is relevent since the "same laws" already are in place. YOU are supposed to pay the tax according to the law. So if you, or Walmart has a beef with anyone, it's with your fellow citizen, or the government who implemented a tax on in state sales.

I love you PR, but who cares what your old fashioned arse likes or dislikes. If you think that Amazon should be doing what the SCOTUS has already declared it doesn't have to, which is collect taxes on cross state sales, simply because you want people to get off the couch more, then you've lost a marble or two. Maybe we should tax drive thru's and pizza delivery, or ban both outright. Afterall, that would force people to get off their fat arses a little more wouldn't it? Yeah it would, but hell no. If some fat slob wants to order his Domino's instead of picking it up, so be it. Even though I think it's absurd when I see people wait in a 12 car line at the DD drive thru for their donuts, while there isn't a car parked in the lot, nor a customer waiting inside. It's still their right to be fat and lazy! Huzzah! hehehe...

People shop from home for a whole lot more reasons than simply saving sales tax. I doubt very highly that if Amazon suddenly started charging state sales taxes that any less people would shop there. That's not the "draw."

The draw is not having to put gas in the car, not having to drive a crowded highway, find a parking place in a crowded mall, walk through a crowded mall, try to find the exact item you want and then find out it is either not stocked or is out of stock, stand in a long line waiting to pay for it, carry it back to the car, drive back home, carry it in the house, etc..

People shop on line for the convenience of it, not necessarily to save a dollar or two in sales tax (which is all it's going to amount to if you're simply talking a few books or a DVD.)

Even with an on-line state calculated sales tax added they'd still be saving time, effort, energy, and yes, money.

Click to expand...

Bingo. I think sales tax plays into it, but the bottom line is total price, with the added aspects you mentioned. I order more online now than I ever have in my lifetime. The only thing I buy in person now is clothing. I do so cuz of the coupon codes I find for online sales, the convenience of shopping from my desk or home, the ability to review a product by way of googling it, comparing prices instantly online, and most importantly lately is the gas I save. Going to the mall and driving home costs about $5-6 now. Plus the time you spend in traffic, in the cold outside, with all the snow we had this winter...ugh. Who needs that? I make my coffee in the morning, eat my raisin bran, go to my favorite shopping sites like Slickdeals: The Best Deals, Coupons & Discounts on Laptops, Computers, LCDs, TVs, Dell, HP, Apple, Amazon or Coupons and Deals that will save you money and shop while watching Sportscenter. It doesn't get much better than that!

My point in this thread is that an internet co. doesn't deserve a competitive advantage that "no sales tax" affords them. They or consumers should be subject to the same laws that brick & mortar retailers must adhere to. If you sell to buyers in states with sales taxes, then the sales taxes must be paid one way or the other.

Now I'm one of those old-fashioned folks that doesn't want Americans to end up staying in their homes to shop. We're already becoming a less social society that oftens prefers to email or text rather than pick up the phone and actually talk with a real human...In my opinion, that's very sad.

Click to expand...

There's no sales tax, but there's also competitive disadvantage that customers can't see and touch the merchandise and can't have it immediately, and somebody has to pay for shipping to the customer.

I'd look at this from a different perspective, my own business bias aside: first, what is the stated purpose and use of the sales tax in a given state, and second, why must the answer be more taxes? If people truly want a level playing field on this issue, maybe sales tax should be reduced or eliminated...

How is it a competitive advantage? Maybe Walmart and Target should go after the state for imposing the tax to begin with. Plus, the tax is part of doing physical business inside that state. Walmart is free to move it's operation to a non taxing state and sell to people like me online, just like amazon does. Amazon isn't a brick a mortar store. It is an etailer. Walmart is on the same playing field with the Target down the street. If someone want something now, they can get in their car and go get it at either store. If I want the same product for a better price, then I'm free to order online at the cost of having to wait for it. Of course, none of this truly is relevent since the "same laws" already are in place. YOU are supposed to pay the tax according to the law. So if you, or Walmart has a beef with anyone, it's with your fellow citizen, or the government who implemented a tax on in state sales.

I love you PR, but who cares what your old fashioned arse likes or dislikes. If you think that Amazon should be doing what the SCOTUS has already declared it doesn't have to, which is collect taxes on cross state sales, simply because you want people to get off the couch more, then you've lost a marble or two. Maybe we should tax drive thru's and pizza delivery, or ban both outright. Afterall, that would force people to get off their fat arses a little more wouldn't it? Yeah it would, but hell no. If some fat slob wants to order his Domino's instead of picking it up, so be it. Even though I think it's absurd when I see people wait in a 12 car line at the DD drive thru for their donuts, while there isn't a car parked in the lot, nor a customer waiting inside. It's still their right to be fat and lazy! Huzzah! hehehe...

Click to expand...

Absolutely correct. If someone runs to one of the state line stores in NH and buys cigs, beer, and liquors, then brings them back to Mass, then does not report those purchases on their form 1, they are the ones breaking the law, not the vendor in NH. Same rules apply on line. I dont like what e business has done to brick and mortor stores, but to try to tax them on sales across state lines is unconstitutional.

Its up to PR to claim that amazon purchase if he lives in mass, then pay his taxes on it. You dont like it, turn him in every time you see the UPS truck pull up to his house...

...Now I'm one of those old-fashioned folks that doesn't want Americans to end up staying in their homes to shop. We're already becoming a less social society that oftens prefers to email or text rather than pick up the phone and actually talk with a real human...In my opinion, that's very sad.

Click to expand...

OT: btw, re. this, it's just an extension of how people already prefer to shop. Your perspective is interesting in that it isn't typically "male." The stereotype of men being "transactional" shoppers has a solid foundation in reality, and the natural extension of that is online shopping.

I don't think any one form is inherently better than the other. To me, I want to deal with a person when that person will bring something to the table, so to speak. But having that choice is a huge plus.

I used to lament the demise of many small shops, and in some particular cases, I still do. But what I witnessed time and time again were many shops failing because they were horribly run -- indefensible prices, poor customer service, no product knowledge, etc. Good riddance to those ones.

Another advantage of buying something from Amazon as opposed to buying the same item from Walmart or Target is that you can ship it anywhere - and usually at no additional cost. There are so many people with friends and family out of state that it makes sense to buy them something online and remove yourself from the packaging and mailing expense.

I hate shopping in malls, stores, etc.. Too many people, too few cashiers, too few salepeople to help you make your choice. Add to that the fact that I live in a very crowded area and have to pay to park at my local Target, haul whatever it is I bought from the car to the 14th floor and it can take me upwards of 2 hours to travel 3 miles to the local Target and pick up the latest Stephen King novel and heck, I'd gladly pay Amazon extra to mail it to me!

I'll bet at least 1/4th of the people in my building use PeaPod to get their groceries even though the store itself is only 8 blocks from here. "Sales tax" and savings have nothing to do with it. It's simple time management and the total cost of parking, gas, wear and tear on your car - to say nothing of how much sanity you save by staying home.

I wonder sometimes if, eventually, they will attribute the lower crime rates in assaults and murders to the convenience of online shopping? Hard to suffer from road rage when you stay off the road.

Wal-Mart Stores Inc., Target Corp. and other large retailers are ratcheting up a political campaign to force Amazon.com Inc. to collect sales taxes, sensing opportunity in the budget crises gripping statehouses nationwide.

The big-box stores are backing a coalition called the Alliance for Main Street Fairness, which is leading efforts to change sales-tax laws in more than a dozen states including Texas and California.

I never understood why they didn't always collect. Take the shipping address, apply the sales tax based on the zip (easy to have an extra table in the db), and auto-fwd the sales tax to the appropriate account.

People shop from home for a whole lot more reasons than simply saving sales tax. I doubt very highly that if Amazon suddenly started charging state sales taxes that any less people would shop there. That's not the "draw."

The draw is not having to put gas in the car, not having to drive a crowded highway, find a parking place in a crowded mall, walk through a crowded mall, try to find the exact item you want and then find out it is either not stocked or is out of stock, stand in a long line waiting to pay for it, carry it back to the car, drive back home, carry it in the house, etc..

People shop on line for the convenience of it, not necessarily to save a dollar or two in sales tax (which is all it's going to amount to if you're simply talking a few books or a DVD.)

Even with an on-line state calculated sales tax added they'd still be saving time, effort, energy, and yes, money.

Click to expand...

If not paying a sales wasn't much of an incentive, then why do Massachusetts residents FLOCK to our stores when we have a "sales tax holiday"? The fact is, it is a major incentive, as are the reasons you mentioned. And the more expensive gas is, the bigger the incentive is not to drive.

But how does your rationale provide a solid argument as to why Amazon & other internet transactions should be exempt from state sales taxes? Or why internet retailers deserve that particular competitive advantage over brick & mortar retailers?

There's no sales tax, but there's also competitive disadvantage that customers can't see and touch the merchandise and can't have it immediately, and somebody has to pay for shipping to the customer.

I'd look at this from a different perspective, my own business bias aside: first, what is the stated purpose and use of the sales tax in a given state, and second, why must the answer be more taxes? If people truly want a level playing field on this issue, maybe sales tax should be reduced or eliminated...

Click to expand...

I'm just saying that all rules must be applied equally in the retail industry. The fact that consumers "can't touch, see or pay" for the merchandise is a choice made by those who choose to do business on the internet. Sales taxes isn't a choice, it's a law and it has to be an even playing field.

I strongly believe we'll see laws passed in the near future that will even that playing field.

I never understood why they didn't always collect. Take the shipping address, apply the sales tax based on the zip (easy to have an extra table in the db), and auto-fwd the sales tax to the appropriate account.