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my thoughts on looting for dungeons....

11-16-2005, 06:28 AM

Last night an issue was discussed concerning the passing of loot to alt characters before greed rolls are made. A very good point was raised that we are all guild members and that we take care of out own. Somewhere down the line, the kindness will be reciprocated. I believe this to be true, however I wanted to bring up a few points from another perspective.
To be as specific as possible, I will try to use the specific example of last evening:
A BOE set piece dropped that was recognized by the party memebers to have some value to it. One party member spoke up and ofered 100g for the item to the person that won it on the greed roll (for his alt char). It was then proposed by a few party members that the item be given to that person and then distributed to the alt as stated above. I spoke up about considering the implications of doing that for the following reasons.....
That value that is in that set piece could possibly mean purchasing as many as 3 BOE set pieces from the AH for my MAIN character. It could also mean a few arcanite bars for my endgame weapon or one of the orbs for my crusader enchant for that weapon. Once again, all important items for my main character to have to be effective in guild runs. It is not about getting more gold into my bank account.
In effect, if I am running 1 main character over lvl 55, I woul find it very difficult to get the equipment that I need for my main char because I am not bringing out loot because it is being distributed to 2nd or 3rd characters.

My proposal: All items are needed and greeded as usual. If you would like an item that has been greeded, make that known to the person that won it through a private tell. I would hope that that person would then a: give it to you or b: negotiate with you to possibly get some help towards something that you need. The accumulation of favors for giving your earned loot to guildies is not a negative thing and would promote giving helping hands to those that hooked you up earlier.

I spoke to a couple of people about my feelings on this last night and I feel that it went very well. It sucked that the conversation began during lotto so I wish their was a policy in place before this happened. I feel very good that we could come to an agreement on a policy and then Crebis could add it to his looting macro. (for crebis I might even add it to my buff ahoy sequence notification).

I'll bring this up in officer forums. It's a simple thing, but like you said, lotto is not the place to be worrying about it. I'll fix my macro as I can. And thanks again to those involved last night. Good we could work this out and understand each other.

Comment

Is the concern over the public offering of Fat cash for the item or over a user giving that item to an alt when someone else could use it or the cash for a main.

If it is the second it should not matter one bit if they want it for an alt if they won it on a GREED roll. They should not be able to NEED roll for and alt but if they win it GREED they can do whatever they want with it. Sell it give it to an alt give it to a Guildie whatever. Should not matter.

My 2 cents.....

"they're more like guidelines, than actual rules,"....Captain Barbossa - Pirates of the Caribbean

Comment

Please keep in mind that I am posting these thoughts for the development of future guild policy not as any gripe or complaint.

As for what you said Q. I didnt have any thoughts on probelems with people offering cash for items at any point. I really didn't have any concerns about that. The question is: Should items be given to alt characters before greed rolls are done. This means that main characters actually in the dungeon would not make greed rolls on stuff that was needed for alt characters.

Foe example lets assume that you have 1 main character Q. Should I be able to claim a BOE piece for one of my 2 alts before you roll greed for your main? That is the crux of the decision I feel we need to make as a guild.

That being said, from what I heard it would be proper ettiquite to offer the item in some wy, shape or form to the guildie in need before selling on the AH. Thoughts?

Comment

OK maybe I'm waaaaay off base here but I thought this was already guild policy. A NEED roll is for the toon PARTICIPATING in the raid and that we could not roll need for an alt if that alt was not part of the raid group. We have way too many alts in guild and too much opportunity for this to be abused. It should not matter if the item is BOP or BOE you sould only be rolling need if it is needed by the toon participating in the raid.

I thought this was brought up previously and was part of loot/ lotto rules. It should not be a debate over what the winner of a greed role plans on doing with an item. greed is greed. If the winner of the lotto wants to sell to guildie is their perogative and should not be required.

Speaking of greed.... Big Me.. are we going again??

Comment

Need before Greed, so the item is used instead of sold
Mains before alts, as the item needs to go to the folks most likely to actually use it
DE anything for a shard that can't/won't be used, and put that shard to the guild bank or future guild enchantments.

Key thing, for any system, is a serious need to focus on improving the gear of mains. Equiping alts or characters not present isn't helping TG as a guild, just a single person. Detail that causes the problems, however, is how to define a 'main character' when getting multiple 60's isn't that hard compared to most online games.

So many scripts, so little time!

Comment

LOTTO RULES:
1. The Master Looter is in charge. If you have complaints, take it up with a guild officer.
2. Need rolls (1-100) take priority over greed (1-1000). Need is ONLY for the 'toon that is present.
3. Once you win a "greed" item, you no longer roll greed until everyone has at least one greed item.
4. Keep comms clear enough to allow for questions/requests/etc. to be posed to the Master Looter.
5. If you win an item, step up to the Master Looter and open a trade window.

Here is the additional commentary & understanding (thanks, Orion/Crebis & Gwenn/Grasshoppa) that seems to come from this discussion:

If you want something for an alt, try winning during greed. If you don't win it, negotiate with the person who won it...either by having them give it to you out of generosity or offering to pay for it and thus finance some of the things they need...Payment isn't always money in this guild.

Guildies should not have to pay for something they need, when possible.
However, it should not be automatic to receive something that an alt needs.
And we should keep in mind that even though you may "need" something for your alt, the money that might be gotten for that item would help the lotto roll winner's main toon.

Beep

Those people who think they know everything are a great annoyance to those of us who do. - (Isaac Asimov)

Comment

OK a little clearer now. in the first I thought you had said he had won it in a greed roll for an alt an in that case if he won it fair and square in a greed roll and wants to give it to an alt no problem.

Like Tasra said we all ready have a policy that need can only be rolled for the toon you are playing at the time.

now my Opiniion.. this has come up in a group I was in. 2 of the same BOE set pieces dropped. It was a 5 man group and someone said hey I could really use one of those for my alt. Now guild policy or not we decided unanimously as a party to let them have one. I personaly see no problem in doing this if every party member is ok with it. They in turn opted to not roll on the few greed items we had.

"they're more like guidelines, than actual rules,"....Captain Barbossa - Pirates of the Caribbean

Comment

That is whty it becomes a problem Q. There is a protocol for distributing loot. When one person suggests breaking the guild protocol then those that were following protocol feel like jerks and get labled for wanting loot. I have been on the other end of this 2x now and had guildies get upset at me while I thought I was following guild policy. (It has since been resolved in a very cool manner).
Guild policy states the way that loot should be distributed and when someone in the group breaks the protocol it has the potential to get VERY ugly.
I have heard from Tasra and Beep on the subject and I am assuming this protocol is correct unless there are some officers who would like to put in some other thoughts....

In short, when the looting rules are compromised people get hurt, that is why they are there to begin with. Much thought went into the decision making process I assume.

Comment

Well Put that way I guess I've been breaking them by sponsoring the "greed runs" thru DM . We've been running straight greed and "needs most" loot style. for the most parts has worked well with no complaints. I introduced it stictly on these runs to get people decent gear and good loot. most walk out with a minimum of 5g and minimal repair bills if the run goes well.

Unfortunately this does break guild loot rules. I'll appologize I was under the impression if all agreed it was ok. As the loot rules read there are no exceptions. Just as unfortunate since I enjoyed the style we ran ( was great to see people come out with uber gear) Is that I will probably go back to my origional grouping for these runs to avoid breaking protocal.

My reasons are sound :

1. with lotto "protocal" style" a large lotto may have 2 or 3 desired items in it. these are not necessarily the first items up for loto . so you either pass your way thru first round and get nothing hoping it comes up and you can roll.. or you have already rolled and can't roll on the item you really want.

2. there is so much chatter during lotto or the run has taken so long you can't stick around for the time consumiing process. So even though you participated thru all of the raid you don't roll because you don't have the time to waste.

I don't want to be the one breaking guild policies or shredding an idea that a lot of thought and effort went into making fair. Or accused of ignoring guild policies on the DM runs. I think I have taught enough people how to make the run that there are sufficient people with the knowledge and abilities to run it for guildies now. I'll probably go back to running it with my origional grouping to avoid any conflict. I do hope all who went enjoyed them.

Comment

If the agreement in UNANIMOUS then there is no issue to even worry about. If even one person does not agree for this to happen then IT DOESN"T.

There is nothing unfair if the entier party is in agreement. If someone does not agree but does not say so then they have dropped the ball and can deal with their own hurt feelings. All anyone has to do is speak up.

This has nothing to do with policy this is just common sense and people getting along and having a good time with each other. If guild policies micromanage every run we go on people will not want to be in the guild. This in no way means I do not support the guilds policies. I just support the idea the a group of people can still decide between them what they want to do. No ones feeling can be hurt if everyone is in agreement.

"they're more like guidelines, than actual rules,"....Captain Barbossa - Pirates of the Caribbean

Comment

The difference here is that Tasra's group decided before the instance, and Gwenn's group did it at lotto. Lotto is no the time to hash out differences. However, rules can bend, and this is one of them...

And just because one member of TG is in a party, doesn't mean that TG's Policy is in effect...it is the ML's choice...or the Raid leader....and if the whole group is TG and the ML/leader thinks that something other than policy should be done, then that is their choice...but the policy was made to give a basis for everyone to default to...when you come to a TG function, the policy is the rule....unless...Unless stated otherwise.

This policy is the policy that TG stands by...and there is a clause stating "The Master Looter is in charge." This means that the ML can make changes as necessary...Flexibility is part of what TG is...

Comment

LOL Q you say that because you've been on those runs. I just don't want to be the one who thumbs her nose at the policies these guys worked hard to put into effect. But at the same time loved seeing Crebis speechless when he was given the "Bigger Me" title and handed treants bane because although he didn't "need" was the only one who could and would use.

I really enjoy these runs.. heck I've made a tidy sum off them. Trying to get people their class books and some nice gear is the main focus. I've worked to make sure we can get a group and have what we need in as little time as possible. ( no more.. stop in AH for...) We have managed to keep loot for this both fair and profitable for everyone. That doesn't give us the right to write our own rules. And from the sounds comming from grasshopper not everyone thinks it's fair or right to deviate even if discussed before the run. I guess that leaves it up to the officers to make the call.. Sorry guys.