EEVblog Electronics Community Forum

In a recent video, Dave used what he referred to as the "mystery multimeter". It has the same blue coloured encasing as the Brymen 235 rebranded meter. As another user pointed out, there are many other features that Dave likes:

Off position is all the way to left

Selector dial is flush with the body

Rubber holster protrudes past the face

This can be seen in the recent mailbag video at time 34:40.https://youtu.be/5SFnZIZa_ZI?t=34m40s (https://youtu.be/5SFnZIZa_ZI?t=34m40s)

Yes, Dave has been working on this for a while. It's a 100% Dave designed meter rather than a co-branded meter like the Brymen. They have been sneaking their way into the videos over the last month or so, but this last video is definitely the most open appearance. He used a "super secret meter" at one point that had a 15V diode tester, so that's probably on the list of features.

Dave mentioned in the Batteroo live stream that he was waiting on a final prototype (probably the one shown in the video you are referring to since it should be here by now), and after testing it Dave is expecting to be ready for a public unveiling. (Sorry, I'm too lazy to find a time stamp for any of this)

In the latest mailbag Dave also gave a hint as to the microcontroller it will be powered by (STM32...) Not far away now! I've been holding off getting the Bryman meter in waiting for this much anticipated Dave DMM...

It's a 100% Dave designed meter rather than a co-branded meter like the Brymen.

It is?

I thought so. This is one of those things where I've picked up bits of information here and there but can't really remember where any of it came from, so I guess I should be careful what I say. I do believe he has been much more involved in the design of this one at the very least.

Yes, Dave has been working on this for a while. It's a 100% Dave designed meter rather than a co-branded meter like the Brymen. They have been sneaking their way into the videos over the last month or so, but this last video is definitely the most open appearance. He used a "super secret meter" at one point that had a 15V diode tester, so that's probably on the list of features.

Yes, 15V diode test.Not entirely true that it's 100% designed by me. I set the specs, and a multimeter company is doing the actual design. But I am getting nitty gritty on the circuit level though.There is only so much I can do, and many compromises have had to be made, and I've had to let a few things slide that I would have fixed myself if it was me doing the design. But it's hard to go back and forth on tiny changes like that, you can't micro-manage a design team you have no direct contact with.I'd love to actually blog the process but I can't.

Quote

Dave mentioned in the Batteroo live stream that he was waiting on a final prototype (probably the one shown in the video you are referring to since it should be here by now), and after testing it Dave is expecting to be ready for a public unveiling. (Sorry, I'm too lazy to find a time stamp for any of this)

Supposed final prototype is on a truck somewhere.I have 4-5 other prototypes that look identical, just some minor tweaks on the new one.

It's a 100% Dave designed meter rather than a co-branded meter like the Brymen.

It is?

In addition to what I said above, yes this is designed from scratch exclusively for me. It's not based on any previous design.One thing they wanted in the contract though, is they liked the compact 4xAA battery housing I specified and they came up with, so they wanted permission to re-use this on other (non-competing) products of theirs. So you might see the case used in other products.

Intertek Group plc is a multinational inspection, product testing and certification company headquartered in London, United Kingdom.

Intertek can trace its origins from a marine surveying business formed by Caleb Brett in the 1890s, a testing laboratory formed by Milton Hersey in Montreal in 1888 and a lamp testing centre established by Thomas Edison in 1896.

I see from the PCB print that it has 2 fuse holders. Does that mean abandoning the single fuse mosfet solution you spoke of in #931 was one of the compromises? Or does this sample predate the concepts discussed in that video?

Pre-production working sample shown in the last mailbag has two current inputs, therefore two fuses presumably. 10A and 500mA? (input jack has 400mA screen printed on it).

In addition to what I said above, yes this is designed from scratch exclusively for me. It's not based on any previous design.One thing they wanted in the contract though, is they liked the compact 4xAA battery housing I specified and they came up with, so they wanted permission to re-use this on other (non-competing) products of theirs. So you might see the case used in other products.

So the big question is of course....

Does the Batterizer fit? Or is Bob going to send you an angry letter now requesting for you to change it?

Does the Batterizer fit? Or is Bob going to send you an angry letter now requesting for you to change it?

:horse:

Psssst! The secret, why Dave´s batterie compartment is a very special one, is:The Batterizer is already integrated! :oHence the DMM could not be released earlier. Dave needed time to copy adapt the magic alien technology... >:D

I couldn't help thinking of simpsons after I hear dave mention "it has bluetooth, 4 AA's instead of AAA, and two full size HRC". https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EHGczDHTDpo (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EHGczDHTDpo)

But it looks good so far, and I'm sure will be reasonably priced compared to a fluke.

I couldn't help thinking of simpsons after I hear dave mention "it has bluetooth, 4 AA's instead of AAA, and two full size HRC". https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EHGczDHTDpo (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EHGczDHTDpo)

But it looks good so far, and I'm sure will be reasonably priced compared to a fluke.

Dave ‘shows off’ the new 121GW EEVBlog multimeter in the latest (as of this writing) vlog on YouTube (starting @~5:17).By ‘shows off’ I mean you can see the entire meter as he uses it to take a few readings on a CPM700 Counter Surveillance Monitor.

Under the credits, the page goes to UEIhttp://www.ueitest.com/ (http://www.ueitest.com/)

Alright Dave, We're ready for a new meter!

J

Oh hells yeah! There's an app in the iPhone app store too, called EEVBlog 121GW! By "Cheon Myoung-kun". Version 1.0.3 dated 10/01/2017!If there's PC software too (no doubt there will be), I volunteer to beta test it ;) Nevermind, it will just probably be the current UEi PC Software.(http://i.imgur.com/WqeVYO4h.png)

@Dave: any "advanced" information about pricing? This might be my best graduation gift for myself!

What do you think it should sell for?

Judging from its feature set, if its basic accuracy can be on par with F289 or U1253B, I'm willing to pay ~$600.Of course, as a low volume product (instead of industrial "standard" fluke), I will expect NRE to be more per unit, so who knows. Maybe a bit higher is also okay with me, anyway I'm considering a third meter, it will either be a GW121 plus a cheap benchtop DMM, maybe a used 34401A, or a single Gossen 30M.As a reference for another well engineered low volume product (though still has a ton of bugs and both sets of ultra fine add-on test leads DOA), I paid $760 for my U1461A.

Judging from its feature set, if its basic accuracy can be on par with F289 or U1253B, I'm willing to pay ~$600.

!!!

Despite the feature set and street cred of being an "EEVBlog" meter, I suspect if it sells for that price he will not sell many. After all it's an untested and unknown brand at this point - more along the lines of Brymen (although one could argue they are now a known and tested brand) and not a Fluke or a Agilent/Keysight, Gossen,etc.

Now if he needs to sell it at that price to make a reasonable profit then he may have no choice. But I suspect (and hope) that's not the case.

BTW, while in my case, I can easily afford to pay that much, since I don't need another multimeter, even with my severe case of GAS, I could not bring myself to pay that much. I suspect I'm not alone in that regard.

@Dave: any "advanced" information about pricing? This might be my best graduation gift for myself!

What do you think it should sell for?

Hmm, the UEI DM397 is as close to the little I know of the specs of this meter as I can find in UEI's range: 50,000 count, etc. it goes for under $300 although this new meter will be better no doubt...

Despite the feature set and street cred of being an "EEVBlog" meter, I suspect if it sells for that price he will not sell many. After all it's an untested and unknown brand at this point - more along the lines of Brymen (although one could argue they are now a known and tested brand) and not a Fluke or a Agilent/Keysight, Gossen,etc.Now if he needs to sell it at that price to make a reasonable profit then he may have no choice. But I suspect (and hope) that's not the case.

Proof: http://www.elma-instruments.no/_no/Produkter/Lists;130070/Elektro/Multimetre/p/5706445410378?shop.product.id=5706445410378 (http://www.elma-instruments.no/_no/Produkter/Lists;130070/Elektro/Multimetre/p/5706445410378?shop.product.id=5706445410378) (the large price is excluding VAT of 25%, real price in small text below).

I was thinking about the 869 for my next DMM purchase, but this is definitely going to be considered. The Brymen goes for around $250 in the US (mostly because it's hard to find I think). I'd probably be willing to pay a slight premium for this, but the appeal would diminish rapidly as the price goes above $300.

Maybe Dave could offer two versions of the 121GW meter - a regular version at a sensible price, and an upgraded version with gold plating and personally autographed by Dave for $800+ aimed at Completionists and the members of "Test Equipment Anonymous" ? ?

Why is the degrees Celsius annunciator an upper index of the primary display when Dave is measuring voltage? Why is "Apo" spelled with only the "A" capitalized, like it was a word and not an acronym for "Auto Power Off"? Probably already answered long time ago in the contributors' lounge but well, I'm a tightwad, it seems :P

Why is the degrees Celsius annunciator an upper index of the primary display when Dave is measuring voltage?

My guess would be that the upper region changes depending on what you're measuring. In AC V it's probably frequency etc. Possibly you can select what the top deck displays, or maybe it's just temp when measuring DC V rather than displaying nothing up there.

My guess would be that the upper region changes depending on what you're measuring. In AC V it's probably frequency etc. Possibly you can select what the top deck displays, or maybe it's just temp when measuring DC V rather than displaying nothing up there.

Yes, that's almost certainly like you described and other meters do it like that, indeed. My only gripe is the location of the symbol. Like it is right now, it strongly implies it refers to the primary (lower, bigger) value instead of the secondary, top one.

Maybe Dave could offer two versions of the 121GW meter - a regular version at a sensible price, and an upgraded version with gold plating and personally autographed by Dave for $800+ aimed at Completionists and the members of "Test Equipment Anonymous" ? ?

I agree and since they will be funded by Kickstarter, it would be easy to have different custom versions. I assume the gold plating would be a challenge. Can gold be plated on plastic? Maybe a jeweler could carve out some plastic and insert thin layer of gold into the plastic. I bet a good jeweler could do magic on them.

Would be fun to see if Dave does this. I could not afford one but I would like to see one and it sure would be an unique item.

Maybe he could list one for $100,000 US for a sold gold case (like some Apple phones). Does gold make good shielding?

Oh hell lets go for a gold and diamond version for $1,000,000 US and list it in Neman Markus Christmas Catalog

But anyway I think it a good idea to have some sort of custom versions available on KS. Make one version stand out by being the most expensive meter in the world. After all with KS he would get the money first. Dave could even ask for ideas here.

My guess would be that the upper region changes depending on what you're measuring. In AC V it's probably frequency etc. Possibly you can select what the top deck displays, or maybe it's just temp when measuring DC V rather than displaying nothing up there.

Yes, that's almost certainly like you described and other meters do it like that, indeed. My only gripe is the location of the symbol. Like it is right now, it strongly implies it refers to the primary (lower, bigger) value instead of the secondary, top one.

Oh yup, I see what you mean. It does look like the °C icon is right next to the lower reading. I guess they haven't put the temp symbols on the top and the bottom. I wonder if the video shows a power on LCD test anywhere, so we can see all of the available things the LCD can show...

It also seems to go blank on the reading screen for quite a long time when it is auto ranging up in the DC V mode.

Yes, gold plating or a solid gold body makes so much sense in a meter designed to test mains voltages... :-DD

In order to be sellable on the open market, it would have to be put through the whole testing process separately from the standard meter, and would fail on items like double insulation. Creepage and clearance issues would be a swine. It could only ever be sold as an ornament, not something that is intended to be used around electricity.

Cat III 300V is tested to 4kV IV is 6kV. I wouldn't want to be holding that meter...

Sure, why not reveal a low-burden multimeter just after I order a uCurrent? :PAt least this uCurrent will have a lot of experiences to share with me, as DHL seems to be giving it a long vacation in Europe >:D

I was doing a little bit of google "research" on AFE (Analog Front Ends) and such for DMM's, and I came across this very interesting document from TI:http://www.ti.com/lit/ug/tidubv5a/tidubv5a.pdf (http://www.ti.com/lit/ug/tidubv5a/tidubv5a.pdf)

I wonder if this DMM (121GW) is built on any aspects of this "TIDA-01012" reference design at all? (50000 counts, bluetooth, etc)

If not, does anyone know of any DMM which IS built based on it? It sounds pretty cool, and interesting to me. I like the features, and although I haven't read the whole PDF document yet, it's making for some interesting reading.

I wonder if this DMM (121GW) is built on any aspects of this "TIDA-01012" reference design at all? (50000 counts, bluetooth, etc)

It's not.Standard multimeter chipset + ST ARM processor.

Oh cool. Thanks. :-+ I'm learning lot about DMM design from reading some of that TI documentation. This is a good one too: http://www.ti.com/lit/ug/tidubm4a/tidubm4a.pdf (http://www.ti.com/lit/ug/tidubm4a/tidubm4a.pdf)

It seems like nearly every new EEVBLOG video these days, Dave is carefully/deliberately unveiling a new small aspect of the pending 121GW DMM.Here are a couple of screenshots from the recent EEVBLOG #972:

(http://i.imgur.com/jUdm2x9.png)

(http://i.imgur.com/KqewMc7.png)

From these pics we can glean: Input protection stuff; 4(?) x PTC's, 3 x MOV's, 2 x power resistors, 1 large 1000V HRC 10A fuse, and 1 small type DMM HRC fuse for the low current range. Also looks like dual solder points for each input jack. Does that mean some kind of insertion detection/alert?

From the pictures it almost looks as if there's an ESP8266 in there, but next to the STM32L152D does not make sense I guess :)

Bluetooth module

Yes, that's right, it looks like it's on its own little soldered-on daughter board, as I've seen before with "jellybean" bluetooth modules. As for the DMM IC, my guess for the DMM front end IC is maybe the Hycon HY3131 or the Fortune FS9704B? The UEI DM397 DMM uses the 50,000 count FS9704B IC, but I thought the 50,000 count HY3131 seemed like a better feature match (eg, runs at 3.6V). But it might be neither of those two, maybe there are other dedicated 50000 count DMM IC chips out there? And the DMM IC would work in conjunction with the STM32L micro I presume. I don't know too much about that area, but I'm interested in learning a bit.

Is that going to be a Kickstarter as some people suggest in this thread or just "normal EEVBlog shop" ?

Kickstarter

But presumably a normal stocked product afterwards ?

Of course, but almost certainly at a higher price.It's the usual problem of having to pony up a large sum of money for that initial minimum bulk production run.Didn't do that for my new high voltage probe, because it's already (or will be) an off-the-shelf product, so I can order as many as I like. But still I pony'd up a lot of cash for initial stock.

Is that going to be a Kickstarter as some people suggest in this thread or just "normal EEVBlog shop" ?

Kickstarter

But presumably a normal stocked product afterwards ?

Of course, but almost certainly at a higher price.It's the usual problem of having to pony up a large sum of money for that initial minimum bulk production run.Didn't do that for my new high voltage probe, because it's already (or will be) an off-the-shelf product, so I can order as many as I like. But still I pony'd up a lot of cash for initial stock.

New high voltage probe? I don't see it in your main page store or on Amazon. The is the first I have seen any mention of it.

Will it have a dBm mode? That's something I use all the time - I do a lot of audio work.

In the case of Fluke, you need to stretch to a 187/9 or 287/9 to get that (and you know how these eat batteries!). The classic 8050A and 8060 models have it, of course, along with the 45. I use them all, along with an 8920A for wide BW stuff.

As it's only a bit of code, it's a shame that it isn't more widespread at the saner end of the market. I suppose a lack of a "dB" annunciator on the chosen LCD might rule it out?

Will it have a dBm mode? That's something I use all the time - I do a lot of audio work.

In the case of Fluke, you need to stretch to a 187/9 or 287/9 to get that (and you know how these eat batteries!). The classic 8050A and 8060 models have it, of course, along with the 45. I use them all, along with an 8920A for wide BW stuff.

As it's only a bit of code, it's a shame that it isn't more widespread at the saner end of the market. I suppose a lack of a "dB" annunciator on the chosen LCD might rule it out?

Sure, why not reveal a low-burden multimeter just after I order a uCurrent? :PAt least this uCurrent will have a lot of experiences to share with me, as DHL seems to be giving it a long vacation in Europe >:D

Good timing, I fried my uCurrent last week. Never miss a genuine oppurtunity to buy more test gear.

Will it have a dBm mode? That's something I use all the time - I do a lot of audio work.

In the case of Fluke, you need to stretch to a 187/9 or 287/9 to get that (and you know how these eat batteries!). The classic 8050A and 8060 models have it, of course, along with the 45. I use them all, along with an 8920A for wide BW stuff.

As it's only a bit of code, it's a shame that it isn't more widespread at the saner end of the market. I suppose a lack of a "dB" annunciator on the chosen LCD might rule it out?

Will it have a dBm mode? That's something I use all the time - I do a lot of audio work.

In the case of Fluke, you need to stretch to a 187/9 or 287/9 to get that (and you know how these eat batteries!). The classic 8050A and 8060 models have it, of course, along with the 45. I use them all, along with an 8920A for wide BW stuff.

As it's only a bit of code, it's a shame that it isn't more widespread at the saner end of the market. I suppose a lack of a "dB" annunciator on the chosen LCD might rule it out?

For me, it'll turn a "maybe" into a "definitely" :-+

Hope I'm right here -- pretty sure it does have dBm mode ;D

Thanks for that - where did you pick up that information from?

I'm not in the know or anything, but there's nothing I can see on the range switch labels indicating that capability:(http://i.imgur.com/mUCOl2F.png)

Will it have a dBm mode? That's something I use all the time - I do a lot of audio work.

In the case of Fluke, you need to stretch to a 187/9 or 287/9 to get that (and you know how these eat batteries!). The classic 8050A and 8060 models have it, of course, along with the 45. I use them all, along with an 8920A for wide BW stuff.

As it's only a bit of code, it's a shame that it isn't more widespread at the saner end of the market. I suppose a lack of a "dB" annunciator on the chosen LCD might rule it out?

For me, it'll turn a "maybe" into a "definitely" :-+

Hope I'm right here -- pretty sure it does have dBm mode ;D

Thanks for that - where did you pick up that information from?

I'm not in the know or anything, but there's nothing I can see on the range switch labels indicating that capability:(http://i.imgur.com/mUCOl2F.png)

Will it have a dBm mode? That's something I use all the time - I do a lot of audio work.

In the case of Fluke, you need to stretch to a 187/9 or 287/9 to get that (and you know how these eat batteries!). The classic 8050A and 8060 models have it, of course, along with the 45. I use them all, along with an 8920A for wide BW stuff.

As it's only a bit of code, it's a shame that it isn't more widespread at the saner end of the market. I suppose a lack of a "dB" annunciator on the chosen LCD might rule it out?

For me, it'll turn a "maybe" into a "definitely" :-+

Hope I'm right here -- pretty sure it does have dBm mode ;D

Thanks for that - where did you pick up that information from?

I'm not in the know or anything, but there's nothing I can see on the range switch labels indicating that capability:(http://i.imgur.com/mUCOl2F.png)

Pity you did not borrow a screwdriver form someone. A photo of Dave's face seeing it taken to appart and and all the bits spread over a dirty bar top would have been priceless. We need a test of it's 'put back together' and still work properly properties.

I'm in need of a meter who has one range of function in dc volts, i measure lots of dc voltages, had to swith a lot between millivolts and volts, i have 2 worn up Fluke 83v loll they began to have some dial selector issues ... sometimes they go beeping without notice ???

Would have been nice to push the envelope to 80000 count with an fs9704b chipset ??

Is the multimeter to be IEC 61010 Cat. III approved? I remember from the Mooshimeter project (https://moosh.im/2014/07/), it took a very long time to pass approvals. And there were many surprises. I have done designs for 61010 product approvals and it is a lot of work.

Is the multimeter to be IEC 61010 Cat. III approved? I remember from the Mooshimeter project (https://moosh.im/2014/07/), it took a very long time to pass approvals. And there were many surprises. I have done designs for 61010 product approvals and it is a lot of work.

Yes, by Intertek, and it does take a long time, many months.Have already hit one hurdle, the testing house came back with an issue on the current protection or something, I don't know details. But nothing was said about delays.

Not sure about .com but Amazon.ca ran out of the BM235 earlier this month. :(

I observed this as well. Finally decided to replace my $15 meter, and the next day amazon.ca was sold out. But at this point I didn't want to wait so I bought one from ebay.ca. One of the best things I've ever bought.

I had finally justified the expense and poof, all gone! I shall patiently await their future restocking.

I would order directly through the EEVblog store but then I would have to pay duty (which I can't actually find an answer as to how much it would be) and the $10 duty processing fee. :(

I ordered mine directly from Dave before he put them on Amazon. It came via DHL, and the total duty + brokerage due was C$34.46.

Title: 121GW
Post by: PushUp on May 30, 2017, 06:07:49 am

Does anyone know anything about the backlight of the 121GW? As far as the Brymen 829s is concerned the backlight goes off much too fast and you cannot change the timing, such as with a Fluke (113-117, 177-179, etc...) and their PowerUp-Feature for continous backlight. Therefore you cannot use it in a proper way under difficult light conditions. As a bench DMM it is fine but not my favourite.

At least the rotary switch seems to be improved. The rotary knob of my Brymen is the worst I have ever used. Much too small and hard to turn. I keep my fingers crossed, that Brymen will take this version of the 121GW for any new model...provided that it is really better. I hope that it is at least comparable with the 87V whch also has no depth for your fingertips. However, in this case it is negligible as you can use your bended forefinger together with your thumb.

By the way: Looking at the photos of Brymen's updated HP, I am not impressed by the way they manufactured the input receptacles - no DMM has all of them centered... :(

Does anyone know anything about the backlight of the 121GW? As far as the Brymen 829s is concerned the backlight goes off much too fast and you cannot change the timing, such as with a Fluke (113-117, 177-179, etc...) and their PowerUp-Feature for continous backlight. Therefore you cannot use it in a proper way under difficult light conditions. As a bench DMM it is fine but not my favourite.

At least the rotary switch seems to be improved. The rotary knob of my Brymen is the worst I have ever used. Much too small and hard to turn. I keep my fingers crossed, that Brymen will take this version of the 121GW for any new model...provided that it is really better. I hope that it is at least comparable with the 87V whch also has no depth for your fingertips. However, in this case it is negligible as you can use your bended forefinger together with your thumb.

By the way: Looking at the photos of Brymen's updated HP, I am not impressed by the way they manufactured the input receptacles - no DMM has all of them centered... :(

here is a look inside my UEI 235 clamp meter, and UEI 397 meter, both made by FINEST in Korea. notice the numbers on the pcb's, F135s_ pcb is the same as Finest 235 clamp meter, and F705_7 is the same as Finest 705 and 707 multimeters. I rest my case...

UEI doesn't make meters, their OEM is FINEST TEST INSTRUMENTS in Korea, as is the case with many of the Klein multimeters, i.e. Klein MM6000 etc...

UEI helped design and manufacture the Klein meters, many of which incidentally are made in the USA. So Fluke are not the only ones to have Uncle Sam made meters.UEI and Klein tools are also related companies.There is quite a lot of complicated relationships with these companies in terms of manufacturing and design services.e.g. You could ask UEI to design you a product, and they might subcontract that out to someone else, and have someone else again manufacture it.

Oops, ok. It's not always obvious when something shows up under new posts, which subforum it originated in and in any case, I didn't realize that the info in it was meant to be a secret. I thought the videos would show up on the EEVBlog2 youtube channel. Sorry. :-[

UEI doesn't make meters, their OEM is FINEST TEST INSTRUMENTS in Korea, as is the case with many of the Klein multimeters, i.e. Klein MM6000 etc...

UEI helped design and manufacture the Klein meters, many of which incidentally are made in the USA. So Fluke are not the only ones to have Uncle Sam made meters.UEI and Klein tools are also related companies.There is quite a lot of complicated relationships with these companies in terms of manufacturing and design services.e.g. You could ask UEI to design you a product, and they might subcontract that out to someone else, and have someone else again manufacture it.

thanks for clearing that up. I guess lots of business relations have changed, it's near impossible to keep up with who owns what, but then it really doesn't seem to matter these days...

I hate patreon because they make too many youtubers make commercials for them. Anything that appears frequently in ads and commercials will automatically be hated by me.

AFAIK Patreon do not approach Youtubers to make commercial for them.Youtubers voluntarily mention Patreon because it's a way for them to get an income stream, not because Patreon are actually paying them to do so.It's like saying PayPal are paying people to promote PayPal Donations, it doesn't work like that.

Im glad that u like it ,but it would be way easier to produce the entire multimeter with buttons instead the rotary switcher .In my opinion the rotary switcher makes the abs case more complex to make,it's also way bulkier and also requires more space inside the multimeter.

Im glad that u like it ,but it would be way easier to produce the entire multimeter with buttons instead the rotary switcher .In my opinion the rotary switcher makes the abs case more complex to make,it's also way bulkier and also requires more space inside the multimeter.

However ,just my opinions .

A good product with poor usability is a bad product. I've found multimeters with too many buttons to be extremely annoying, especially when you can just stick it on the range switch. With a range switch, it's very easy to see what mode the meter is in because it is printed on the range switch.

For example, Fluke should move the AC/DC selection back to the rotary switch like the old square Fluke 27 (?) had, at least to avoid the ridiculous default-AC current mode. Some functions (eg. on/off) are better off as a button.

The case itself won't be that much more complicated either, just one big hole instead of many small odd-shaped or rectangular holes for the buttons. You will also need more space on the LCD or some way of telling which mode the meter is in.

It is easier to make a button-only multimeter meet IP or Ex standards, though the Fluke 28-II proves both is possible even with a range switch. IP67 is reasonable, as is the Ex rating.I wouldn't mind an IP68 Ex-rated action multimeter for extreme scuba diving pyrotechnics engineers though. :-+

I would tend to agree - but one thing that I find curious... If push buttons are so good, why are there so many meters out there with rotary switches?

Maybe because is begin to be an common mainstream ???I dont know ,but i still prefer the buttons ,because they can ensure more time-life instead of etched traces on the pcb for the mechanical switcher ...... Im fascinating by the MTX 3292 design ,i think that when i get enough money that would be my 1st pro handled multimeter.

I would tend to agree - but one thing that I find curious... If push buttons are so good, why are there so many meters out there with rotary switches?

Maybe because is begin to be an common mainstream ???I dont know ,but i still prefer the buttons ,because they can ensure more time-life instead of etched traces on the pcb for the mechanical switcher ...... Im fascinating by the MTX 3292 design ,i think that when i get enough money that would be my 1st pro handled multimeter.

The DMM market is very conservative - look how similar todays DMMs are to those of 20 years ago. Aside from the convenience of switching multiple circuits with minmal loss, leakage and damage sensitivity, there are some practical reasons. It's easier to operate a rotary switch with gloves on. It provides visual and tactile feedback of function - this could be a safety issue - e.g. accidentally testing whether a mains circuit was live with the meter unintentionally set to DCV, resulting in a false low reading.

As regards lifetime, the switch on my Fluke 87III is just starting to get flaky after something like 25 years of daily use. Clearly not an issue.

I would assume the current inputs have different connections, and the other ranges are sufficiently protected agains high voltages, so no change in setting will cause any problems. Personally I am not opposed to button interfaces, but it will require a decent implementation, which might be difficult. I recently used an old non-autoranging meter, and it is a pain when you don't know what kind of voltage you are about to see. You'll have to poke into the PCB, arguably using both hands, and change ranges if there is either 0V or OL on the screen. It gets a chore quite quickly, especially when any accuracy is required.

I think you still need a physical switch to choose the function, i.e. disconnect ohms current source, read voltage off shunt for A/D etc.I see two multimeter areas of use - on the bench and out in the field, on site.Tiny multifunction buttons with tiny font I can't read, like Agilent/Keysight multimeters, does not work in the field where it's dark, raining, full sun etc.

I would want a function switch- imagine reading HV and button press changes to ohms. Foof.

Didn't want to start a new topic and I couldn't find an existing one about the 121GW multimeter.I saw the Joe Smith test with it and it left a good impression on me. However some comments left a sour taste, don't understand if it's the same person or different ones, badgering the same issue to death: "200-ish$, needs more buttons, cannot stand 2kV, FAIL". What the hell is wrong? I don't think there's anything on the market that has power (VA) measurement and data logging at that price point and precision, let alone SD card and bluetooth. The only product that comes to mind is the Mooshimeter, which is a bit of a toy, and costs 125$.

I mean, I paid 80 EUR for a refurbished bench multimeter from the 80s just because it had a recent calibration and it has only basic features with manual ranging.I bought one Mastech just to play with it but it's a piece of junk, same feeling about Uni-T as well. I'd rather have 10 of those freebies with transistor tester and one or two decent meters for field or accurate usage. So maybe I don't understand the issue or some Uni-T fanboys are being triggered by Dave.

Sorry, just had to let this out somewhere.

If I have one suggestion, is that it can be set up to default to continuity test on the ohms range and to DC on voltage range.

Is the proposed meter colour OK? I ran into this 2014 drama and can't believe it:

Sparkfun forced to incinerate (https://www.sparkfun.com/news/1428) 2,000 import yellow/gray multimeters due to US Customs finding the shipment violated Fluke's trademark (http://tsdr.uspto.gov/#caseNumber=75934005&caseType=SERIAL_NO&searchType=statusSearch) with their yellow/gray look.Fluke did respond and donated some equipment to Sparkfun. (https://www.sparkfun.com/news/1430) But ouch.

Now I'm freaked out, Agilent was blue then orange. I don't know if that was trademarked?

The chances of that happening are lower than winning the lottery. Can't say it cannot happen, just saying it won't.

On the on/off button: probably too late for that choice, a lot of the manufacturers ditched the extra button. You could probably repurpose one button in the firmware or use the sleep/wake-up function of the multimeter for that. Anyway, without BT or logging activated I expect at least 1000-2000h battery life, so that means leaving your meter on for weeks. Obviously I don't have any data for this meter to back that up, just an assumption.

@floobydustYou will always need physical switches, and autoranging seems to be doable without mechanical switches (think that's what you meant ;)). I do not think the issue is controlling these things electronically. It might still be quite a challenge to build a multimeter that is easy and intuitive to use without rotary switch and therefore I would not argue in favour of ditching the rotary switch alltogether. I do dislike those that have no autoranging and require a position on the switch for each and every range, creating a meter with these massive dials with 20+ options, making them fiddly to use.

Personally I though about building a set of "monometers", meters that only have one function and little need for an interface. One voltmeter, one currentmeter, one frequency counter and a thermometer (and maybe an LCR-meter). All different colours and few switches on each of them. These were quite difficult to get, but in the end I settled for just buying a few cheapy multimeters and a thermometer because it was cheaply available as a seperate unit. I am happy I did, because I found myself to grab the Brymen "EEVBlog" BM235 first, making it unavailable for temp measurements.

I heard of the colour trademark issue, but considered it to be an incident. I think it is ridiculous to trademark a colour combination this simple, but especially with the growth of ebay and aliexpress-like sites it is getting quite obvious selling clones and lookalikes is damaging the market too. Now we're swamped with meters that all look like proper ones, but aren't always so.

@brainwashThat's a forum for you! ;) These things will always happen, I think usually without an evil intent. Especially because those that see something they consider bad will be more likely to respond than those that are completely satisfied with the stuff they see. In the end it will fill a topic with a sense of negativity, while in fact it isn't that bad, it's just the 'silent majority' being silent. I can imagine for example that a lot of hobbyists might not want to spend $200 because they simply live in a locale in which this is a prohibitive amount of money. I myself live in The Netherlands, but I must acknowledge people abroad might be substantially less affluent. This is often not immediately obvious, so a lot of critisism may very well be understandable if the background of those that post it is more clearly understood. Incidentally, I found myself to be quite critical of issues that I simply misunderstood too. I might still have overlooked situations in which this has happened and these comment still haunt some old topic somewhere. I think I know what you mean, and I agree that at times you see someone put in a lot of positive effort that is subsequently swamped by a lot of negative comments.

PS Never heard about the Mooshimeter, but it seems like a nice piece of kit.

Didn't want to start a new topic and I couldn't find an existing one about the 121GW multimeter.I saw the Joe Smith test with it and it left a good impression on me. However some comments left a sour taste, don't understand if it's the same person or different ones, badgering the same issue to death: "200-ish$, needs more buttons, cannot stand 2kV, FAIL". What the hell is wrong? I don't think there's ...If I have one suggestion, is that it can be set up to default to continuity test on the ohms range and to DC on voltage range.

I would not be too surprised if the released version of the meter did not store the last settings. Personally, I really like that feature on the BM869s. I've seen people complain about it as well. It's really a question for Dave.

It's the fastest no brainer feature packed meter I have ever used, and the continuity chirper and speed is unbeatable. [...]

Joeqsmith has compared the Fluke 289 and the Uni-t UT-181 in the review of the latter and I remember him mentioning the Uni-T kind of copied their user interface, but seems to have made quite some detail improvements on its interface, reducing the amount menu steps required for some funtions. It was also able to display the AC, the DC and the AC+DC value simultaneously while the 289 could not. It did not turn out to be particularly robust though. Incorrect device number... :palm: :-X

[...]I would not be too surprised if the released version of the meter did not store the last settings. Personally, I really like that feature on the BM869s. I've seen people complain about it as well. It's really a question for Dave.

I think this is one of these things you will start missing the second you have had it. On the other hand I have the BM235 and I do find myself actually being bothered by the resistance and continuity being the same position on the selector switch. Somehow it feels like the meter comes on randomly with resistance or continuity (while in fact it was just me having used these functions previously, but forgetting). This might be a personal quirk though, I have those... :-X

PS Does someone know how to enter in a link to a youtube video without getting a frame embedded into the reply? I wanted to have a link inline with my sentence, but it just jammed an entire video frame in it rather than a link to it.

It's the fastest no brainer feature packed meter I have ever used, and the continuity chirper and speed is unbeatable. [...]

Joeqsmith has compared the Fluke 289 and the Uni-t UT-181 in the review of the latter and I remember him mentioning the Uni-T kind of copied their user interface, but seems to have made quite some detail improvements on its interface, reducing the amount menu steps required for some funtions. It was also able to display the AC, the DC and the AC+DC value simultaneously while the 289 could not. It did not turn out to be particularly robust though.

Friendly FYI: the 189 bears no resemblance to the 289

and yes I watch Joe's videos too :-+

but my 289 won't be replaced anytime soon, now that I'm familiar with all it's functions and menu routines (scribbled on paper LOL) ;D

I am all waiting for 121GW to be out :). It has some serious features not found on any multimeter. I am following up on Joe youtube channel .. all multimeters get some good beating and come out more reformed and tested. 121GW has not fared bad considering it is not in production as yet, some issues can potentially be fixed.

Another small but useful feature if Dave can include in the multi meter .. "Auto Back light on". Joe in one of his extremely modified Uni-t UT61E has implemented this very unique feature. Quite handy, if the light is dim or goes out, back light automatically switches on.

I am all waiting for 121GW to be out :). It has some serious features not found on any multimeter. I am following up on Joe youtube channel .. all multimeters get some good beating and come out more reformed and tested. 121GW has not fared bad considering it is not in production as yet, some issues can potentially be fixed.

I think it's important to also understand Joe's tests in context.The Fluke 87V, the most trusted meter on the market, fails every single one of Joe's tests. According to Joe's tests it's one of the worst meters on the market. Yet I doubt there is a single 87V owner ever who has seen their meter die due to any ESD or pulse overload etc.

I am all waiting for 121GW to be out :). It has some serious features not found on any multimeter. I am following up on Joe youtube channel .. all multimeters get some good beating and come out more reformed and tested. 121GW has not fared bad considering it is not in production as yet, some issues can potentially be fixed.

I think it's important to also understand Joe's tests in context.The Fluke 87V, the most trusted meter on the market, fails every single one of Joe's tests. According to Joe's tests it's one of the worst meters on the market. Yet I doubt there is a single 87V owner ever who has seen their meter die due to any ESD or pulse overload etc.

I agree.. most of the tests are a worst case scenarios (black swan events). 87v is a standard when it comes to rugged meters but has failed many of Joes tests. In fact Fluke 101 :) has passed more tests then any of the more expensive meters.

I think it's important to also understand Joe's tests in context.The Fluke 87V, the most trusted meter on the market, fails every single one of Joe's tests. According to Joe's tests it's one of the worst meters on the market. Yet I doubt there is a single 87V owner ever who has seen their meter die due to any ESD or pulse overload etc.

I agree.. most of the tests are a worst case scenarios (black swan events). 87v is a standard when it comes to rugged meters but has failed many of Joes tests. In fact Fluke 101 :) has passed more tests then any of the more expensive meters.

For me it's simply a matter of has a meter passed independent safety testing (UL, ETL etc). If so then it's good enough to recommend and use it on anything it's rated for.Sure, if a meter is failing ESD testing or something that could potentially be common place, then that may be a cause for concern, but even the Fluke 87V has shown no sign of doing that in practice for the 13 years it's been released as the V series, apart from Joe's test.

I think it's important to also understand Joe's tests in context.The Fluke 87V, the most trusted meter on the market, fails every single one of Joe's tests. According to Joe's tests it's one of the worst meters on the market. Yet I doubt there is a single 87V owner ever who has seen their meter die due to any ESD or pulse overload etc.

I agree.. most of the tests are a worst case scenarios (black swan events). 87v is a standard when it comes to rugged meters but has failed many of Joes tests. In fact Fluke 101 :) has passed more tests then any of the more expensive meters.

For me it's simply a matter of has a meter passed independent safety testing (UL, ETL etc). If so then it's good enough to recommend and use it on anything it's rated for.Sure, if a meter is failing ESD testing or something that could potentially be common place, then that may be a cause for concern, but even the Fluke 87V has shown no sign of doing that in practice for the 13 years it's been released as the V series, apart from Joe's test.

I responded here if interested:https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/hear-kitty-kitty-kitty-nope-not-that-kind-of-cat/1734/ (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/hear-kitty-kitty-kitty-nope-not-that-kind-of-cat/1734/)

Played with a 87V, i could not stand the "ac and push button to be in dc" idea of the V series, my ideal meter would be no more mv selection, just dc or ac, minimum 60k counts, i have a Gossen 28s and love it, would be nice to have a faster display speed, the Metex meters seem very good, but they are ugly as hell for me.

I'm checking time to time this thread and seeing where the 121gw meter will go and evolve and buy one when they will be on sale. I would have been nice to have some kind of inductive coupled power supply, isolated supply, to have if wanted an always on meter EX: an 8hrs of use, like i do sometime with my Gossen 28s

Maybe pushing the 121gw to 80000 counts ???? would be a dream come true lolll or a 60k counts ??? forgot that i made that comment in a previous post

Also @joeqsmith, tempco is described in detail in Metrawatt Ultra datasheet. It is specified for Volts DC at 0,05%rdg+5d/10°K .. That comes out roughly to 50ppm/°K + some digits.EDIT: In specs, you can see that it is specified from 0°C to 40°C. Your test at -20°C and 60°C is way out of instrument specification.. Manufacturer was very upfront that this meter perform to it's full spec in the laboratory and controlled temperature environments and we shouldn't expect it to perform much better than specified..

I would also not compare Joe's measurements with Dave's. Measuring in millivolt range introduces increased visibility all kinds of thermal effects in cabling and setup. I would expect that good portion of measured values comes from that influence. Measuring at 4.5 or 10 V is much better to suppress these kinds of errors and to concentrate on actual tempco of an instrument.

Looking at data for those two measurement points separately (room to -10°C, and room to +20°C) you can also see nonlinearities in tempco, that box method (min to max temp delta) doesn't show.

In order for tempco measurement to be useful, there should be measurement point every 10°C (or 5°C, even better ) from 0°C to 50°C with soak time of 45min at every point.It should be performed at 5-10V range to minimise cabling and setup tempco...

Best regards,

Sinisa

But considering this a quick check, it seems so far that 121GW does pretty well, compared to more expensive meter..

Joe's results are not representative of a final unit.I also didn't understand why Joe did a test at the extreme bottom end of the 50mV range. thermocouple effects in probe and contact dissimilar metals will likely dominate. This sort of testing should be done at close to full scale.

My guess is that Joe was just replicating the tests he did previously with other meters.

That is correct. I don't really care about the sources of the drift. I just run them the same way and compare the results. All of the meters I have looked at, once settled were sub 2mV total drift.

In order to avoid further confusion about the up and coming 121GW, I have removed all but the original video. It seems having pre-production in the title and mentioning that throughout the videos and then explaining that I had even modified it, still did not mean that everyone would understand that this was not a production unit. I assume Dave reviewed the original video of the set and gave me the thumbs up to make it public, so I plan to leave that one.

I assume Dave reviewed the original video of the set and gave me the thumbs up to make it public, so I plan to leave that one.

Yes, I had no problem with the original video, as that was the intention of sending you one, to have some fun blowing one up, as you had requested, and what the users wanted in the forum poll.Sorry I couldn't have sent you a final review unit, but that's just the nature of development, things are always changing until that production button is pushed.

It only has to be explained why these effects dominate just at Gossen and do not dominate at UNI-T ..., if they really dominate.I see Joes test as a temperature drift test (of near to zero readings) - what is so bad about it?

Nothing per-se if you want such a data point, so long as the thermocouple effects from junctions are consistent. Mostly you won't know what materials are used in the test leads and the contacts on the meters, so it could be a bit of a crap-shoot.That's why if your goal is to characterise the tempco of a meter (that is mostly comprised of the reference + divider resistors), then you do it on the higher voltage ranges.

Nothing per-se if you want such a data point, so long as the thermocouple effects from junctions are consistent. Mostly you won't know what materials are used in the test leads and the contacts on the meters, so it could be a bit of a crap-shoot.That's why if your goal is to characterise the tempco of a meter (that is mostly comprised of the reference + divider resistors), then you do it on the higher voltage ranges.

I can even understand that Joe wants to see influence of temperature on low ranges.. Including materials used..I just suggested that testing at -20°C and 60°C is a bit extreme and out of specified working temperature ranges of most instruments.. And might have value as information how instruments handle operating them out of specs.. But you cannot correlate and compare it to manufacturer published specification of tempco.. Testing them within specified range would be more useful, together with tempco curve.. For instance in your two point quick measurement it is obvious that 121GW and Gossen handle hot MUCH better than cold, while U1282A has almost linear negative tempco both hot and cold...

If you have a range switch anyway, then it costs nothing to add a power to to the PCB for that.

If you have a power button you can leave the meter on the range you most commonly use, which may also save some wear and tear on the range switch. It is probably a small thing, but it is a convenience, and it avoids the accident of turning the range switch to off while the meter is still connected (even if that may not be harmful to the meter, will it be harmful to the DuT?)

If you have a power button you can leave the meter on the range you most commonly use, which may also save some wear and tear on the range switch. It is probably a small thing, but it is a convenience, and it avoids the accident of turning the range switch to off while the meter is still connected (even if that may not be harmful to the meter, will it be harmful to the DuT?)

I've bought cheapie with power button especially for that, so when I measure anything for longer I can just flip a power switch, even if meter lies in place that would cause it to slip if I turned the dial without holding it.

There is other reason too, if meter have jack that shares amps with anything you can have "accident" (altho that's pretty hard as amps ranges are usually furthest away from off position )

Can you hear this noise in the background? This kind of snorting and scratching with the hoofs?This is the EEVBlog herd, waiting for the GW 121 to buy it.Until one shouts "Look! The new GW 121! There you can buy it!" there will be a huge stampede happen... :-D

For me the only thing i would hack is to remove the mv selection, i measure lots of voltages, i need one range of AC and / or DC.

Must be a technical reason for it (as in having to physically switch some components in). Personally I'd switch continuity to be default mode when switching to ohms (or even having its own position if possible), I use it almost as often than measuring resistance

For me the only thing i would hack is to remove the mv selection, i measure lots of voltages, i need one range of AC and / or DC.

Must be a technical reason for it (as in having to physically switch some components in). Personally I'd switch continuity to be default mode when switching to ohms (or even having its own position if possible), I use it almost as often than measuring resistance

The new firmware defaults to the last used mode. So you can leave it on continuity forever if you want, or AC volts default etc.

Will we get an email with tracking when they are shipped? I got my invoice with order number 11039 on 25th Nov but no more information since then and I am extremely curious if I will get a christmas present. :-+

So is there some video of features. I know about low burden. Seems dual display... what else. Is there some kind of review /comparison / specifications? I know that there is the manual, but some kind of overview?

Did you watch the videos Dave has released? If not, go to his EEVBLOG 2 youtube page, go to the 121GW playlist and have a look. I had a few videos for one of the preproduction units but nothing like a full review of it because it was still under development. The first one where I transient test the meter is still available to watch. The others were basically showing the bar graph speed, repairing the meter a few times and repeating the transient tests after attempting to harden it. There was a video on measuring power but the meter had a few problems then. I agree that it will be good to see what they came up with. The Brymen he rebranded is obviously a solid meter and I would expect similar quality and robustness from this meter. It is a 121GW after all. :-DD

Once they start to show up, I imagine that YT will be swamped with reviews for it. Based on this site's membership, I would expect some of these reviews will be fairly detailed. Just give it a little time.

Those are the only videos that I am aware of available to the public. Doesn't the manual explain what features it has? If not, that seems like a pretty big miss. You should be able to compare the manuals of the various meters you want to compare with it. It's a bit of an oddball with it's unique feature set, so I'm note sure what meters you would compare it against or what criteria you would use. I thought they were trying to ship the first ones to get them out for Christmas but I am not sure if they shipped or not and with Dave going on vacation right in the middle of it, it may be a while before you start seeing reviews. I bet when they get out there though, the flood gates will open up for reviews. :-DD 2018 is going to be a fun year!

Well, i had a look at the manual, but I am not that knowledgable of multimeters. I would prefer if someone laid it out for me :-)He said he will not meet the deadline, i believe. I just wondered if I missed some videos or blogs about it. Looks like it was all kind of a secret?

Well, i had a look at the manual, but I am not that knowledgable of multimeters. I would prefer if someone laid it out for me :-)He said he will not meet the deadline, i believe. I just wondered if I missed some videos or blogs about it. Looks like it was all kind of a secret?

There've been blog videos about it during its development. Here's the playlist: https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PL24OiKqd2iN-PIGiG6akcX6e_UimarIH6 (https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PL24OiKqd2iN-PIGiG6akcX6e_UimarIH6)Also look at the start date of THIS thread, which is about a year ago. That's not how you keep secrets!

And the video you seem to be demanding does exist:https://youtu.be/5cVrGcdV5JA (https://youtu.be/5cVrGcdV5JA)

I have seen all that, but.... why? Why is this so much better? Burden? Accuracy? Like i said, I'm no expert... It's not like there is in debth video about it and we are talking about a man that makes 30 minute summary videos :-D

All I can say is patience. It's not like you can even order one yet, if you didn't get in on the kickstarter. Kickstarter deliveries are expected to take until March to complete. So by the time you CAN order one, there will be plenty of reviews.

I think if you don't want to take the time to read the manual, you will just have to wait until they start showing up. If you followed my thread, I doubt you missed any videos.

Yes, he did limit the information. It took a fair amount of time before we knew who the supplier was. They made the software available on the web (on purpose or by mistake) and at least this is how I found out. :-DD He also talked about it from time to time on their PodCast show as well as posting the few videos. Most of the information was under the contributor's section which would limit the exposure as well.

I was hoping he would have made a full on review of it before it started to ship as it may have proved insightful even if it had some bias. He did say they made a change to the reference but that is the only hardware change I have seen him post about. He did post a few comments comparing it with the Fluke 87V's robustness and it sounded like he was happy with it as is. While I did offer some suggestions on how they may be able to improve it's robustness (as I have shown, that stuff is not rocket science anyway), I doubt based on Dave's comments that part of the design was changed. There really would be no reason for me to repeat any of my transient tests except to document the results as he did not want the prototype meter's data published. But my guess is you will see people doing all sorts of things with it once they have it in their hands. Just takes time.

I started reviewing the videos I had made along with the comments people had posted thinking I may reconsider making them available. Even months later, I think even though Dave never asked me to pull them it's still the right decision to leave them down. The biggest problem I see is even though I would say throughout the videos that it was pre-production and not released, some people would spot bugs during the testing and post about them, which or course made other viewers confused if these problems would be in the final meter or not. So even now, I can still understand Dave's concerns.

Well, i had a look at the manual, but I am not that knowledgable of multimeters. I would prefer if someone laid it out for me :-)

Even if someone laid it out for you it wouldn't help. If you are not that knowledgeable about multimeters then you wouldn't recognize whether the features of the meter are useful for you or not, or whether it is a better meter for you than some other one.

I don't have to know anything to enjoy information. Dave's videos usualy say "look at this! this is crap because this and this. When you compare it with this multimeter, you see the difference!"That is all I need. I'm just interested. I wasn't even aware he did the kickstarter until it was already over. It just seemed strange to me that so many people would order a multimeter without knowing exact specs, so i figured i missed some information. That is all.

I don't have to know anything to enjoy information. Dave's videos usualy say "look at this! this is crap because this and this. When you compare it with this multimeter, you see the difference!"That is all I need. I'm just interested. I wasn't even aware he did the kickstarter until it was already over. It just seemed strange to me that so many people would order a multimeter without knowing exact specs, so i figured i missed some information. That is all.

The exact specs and features are listed in the manual.As others have said, if you can't use that to evaluate a $250 meter yourself, then, well, you shouldn't buy it. There are many people who can, and those are likely the people who bought it.If you want a review the you'll have to wait for someone to do one.

Ok, guys, is there some kind of problem?I did not say I wanted or needed to buy one.I am interested in it purely because of my interest in electronics.I have watched a lot of teardowns just because I am interested. I find it interesting.I can look at specifications but I does not tell me what kind of problems can be solved with using this meter over some others. I understand that the burden is better. I see it is better shielded from outside statics or whatever. I was just asking if there was a comprehensive info in form ov a video or a page that states which things are improved over other well amde and well known meters. I have a 10 year old mid class UniT and it works well for me as I am not doing anything serius.I don't understand how was I not clear on that and why some of the responses should be "don't buy one if you can't read the manual", paraphrased.Big thanks to all that confirmed that information was limited and I am looking forward to teardowns, reviews and such!

I think it's because you're demanding information about a final product that literally isn't in customers hands yet. And expected that reviewers would have review videos out before they actually have one in their hands to review. And then the "Looks like it was all kind of a secret?" line seemed to suggest that there was a conspiracy to keep you in the dark.

As for what various specs mean, that info is out there if you're willing to educate yourself. Search for "burden voltage", and you'll find plenty of explanations out there, some of them in video form. Ditto for almost any other technical aspect you're curious about.

And yet again you have missed what I have been saying. I said that I understand that one of the things is burden voltage, but I am wondering what else.I wasn't thinking about consumer reviews but info from Dave. I thought i missed the videos. I mean, this project lasts for two years, does it not?And again, I am just interested about why would you do a project of two years when you already have the best multimeters in the world on your bench. What is different (except burden voltage).Is my english so bad?

To clarify further.I thought the answers might be like:1. Dave knows his stuff and he wanted to make it just because he can.2. It is just another source if income as he is a full time youtuber and a pretty good meter for money.3. The burden voltage improvement is good eanough reason for making such multimeter and reason to buy it4. The precision, burden voltage, bluetooth... there really is no such combo on the market and people need it.5. There is a lot of videos covering this made by Dave, but they are exclusive Patreon or Kickstarter supporter content.

It's not about your English, we understand your questions OK. But the information is already out there. I don't know of any videos that are exclusive to Patreon or Kickstarter. All the information is public.

The meter has many extra features, some of them you can also find on other meters, but not al of them in the same meter.Some of the features are (I am probably missing some):15V diode testBluetoothSD card loggingConcurrent V and A measurementLow burden voltageSoftware in meter can be updated

It's not about your English, we understand your questions OK. But the information is already out there. I don't know of any videos that are exclusive to Patreon or Kickstarter. All the information is public.

Ok. So it is just those highlights that make it special.Bluetooth, Android software, 15V diode test, low burden voltage, 50k count, good accuracy and overall good build that make it stand out.As I don't really need any of those features I wasn't aware that it is not available elsewhere (for the price or what).Ok, cool!Sorry if I waqs a pain. :-)

The meter has many extra features, some of them you can also find on other meters, but not al of them in the same meter.Some of the features are (I am probably missing some):15V diode testBluetoothSD card loggingConcurrent V and A measurementLow burden voltageSoftware in meter can be updated

Guys honestly I was following up on 121GW but doh |O Holidays + YearEnd I missed when kick starter happed. The time I knew it was already over :scared:

I have purchased a few multimeters last year, Fluke 87v, Extech EX540 and yes Uni-t ut171B. The last uni-t that I received is independently certified, and 0.025% class (that they claim at least). I was comparing the specs of all the above against Dave's 121GW, the 121GW is cool, desirable small form factor with some unique features, bluetooth + that EEVBlog Blue :popcorn:

But I am at a loss when it comes accuracy - in 121GW manual, accuracy is mentioned to be different for each range. Where as for Fluke 87v it is same across the range and pretty good too, for ex: Resistance up to 50 M? @ ±(0.2% + 1), DC Voltage up to 1000 V @±(0.05% + 1)

And yet again you have missed what I have been saying. I said that I understand that one of the things is burden voltage, but I am wondering what else.I wasn't thinking about consumer reviews but info from Dave. I thought i missed the videos. I mean, this project lasts for two years, does it not?And again, I am just interested about why would you do a project of two years when you already have the best multimeters in the world on your bench. What is different (except burden voltage).Is my english so bad?

Guys honestly I was following up on 121GW but doh |O Holidays + YearEnd I missed when kick starter happed. The time I knew it was already over :scared: I have purchased a few multimeters last year, Fluke 87v, Extech EX540 and yes Uni-t ut171B. The last uni-t that I received is independently certified, and 0.025% class (that they claim at least). I was comparing the specs of all the above against Dave's 121GW, the 121GW is cool, desirable small form factor with some unique features, bluetooth + that EEVBlog Blue :popcorn:But I am at a loss when it comes accuracy - in 121GW manual, accuracy is mentioned to be different for each range. Where as for Fluke 87v it is same across the range and pretty good too, for ex: Resistance up to 50 M? @ ±(0.2% + 1), DC Voltage up to 1000 V @±(0.05% + 1)But 121GW accuracy is different for different ranges. Resistance 50 M? range @ ±1.2%+20, DC voltage 600 V @ ±0.1% + 10May be some one can clarify here.. are the other meters hiding the accuracy for different ranges ?

Higher end meters use custom laser trimmed ceramic hybrid divider networks, this likely results in the ability to more confidently state a specification over all the ranges.

If I remember correctly, the later model (protek 610/620) sadly dropped the high voltage diode mode, but added 100k count and datalogging. Was an amazing meter for the price: https://www.tequipment.net/Protek620.asp (https://www.tequipment.net/Protek620.asp)

I own 3 handheld cheaper meters already two of which are also datalogging ones. An Agilent 34401 and a pair of 34970A Loggers with 6.5 digit multimeter cards fitted.

Yet I ordered one of these!

It fits has a great feature set already and an app that I am sure will become a great add on as it develops. It's accuracy spec is far better than my current handhelds so for taking in my gear bag to outside jobs or day to day use on the bench it made a lot of sense. My claggy old Jaycar toolbag one will continue until it dies as it is more than up to field use and if it gets broken care factor is zero.

If you are expecting 6 digits plus of accuracy go buy one 'as well' >:D

Guys honestly I was following up on 121GW but doh |O Holidays + YearEnd I missed when kick starter happed. The time I knew it was already over :scared: I have purchased a few multimeters last year, Fluke 87v, Extech EX540 and yes Uni-t ut171B. The last uni-t that I received is independently certified, and 0.025% class (that they claim at least). I was comparing the specs of all the above against Dave's 121GW, the 121GW is cool, desirable small form factor with some unique features, bluetooth + that EEVBlog Blue :popcorn:But I am at a loss when it comes accuracy - in 121GW manual, accuracy is mentioned to be different for each range. Where as for Fluke 87v it is same across the range and pretty good too, for ex: Resistance up to 50 M? @ ±(0.2% + 1), DC Voltage up to 1000 V @±(0.05% + 1)But 121GW accuracy is different for different ranges. Resistance 50 M? range @ ±1.2%+20, DC voltage 600 V @ ±0.1% + 10May be some one can clarify here.. are the other meters hiding the accuracy for different ranges ?

Higher end meters use custom laser trimmed ceramic hybrid divider networks, this likely results in the ability to more confidently state a specification over all the ranges.

Hi Dave, Please do plan to release a high accuracy version of 121GW, may be comparable to flagships like Fluke87v. I won't mind paying another USD 80-100 premium for it. Fluke sells for USD380, still it will be competitive to most of the similar accuracy meters on the market.

If I remember correctly, the later model (protek 610/620) sadly dropped the high voltage diode mode, but added 100k count and datalogging. Was an amazing meter for the price: https://www.tequipment.net/Protek620.asp (https://www.tequipment.net/Protek620.asp)

Interesting:"Due to the unreliability of Protek producing this item on time we have discontinued this unit."

If I remember correctly, the later model (protek 610/620) sadly dropped the high voltage diode mode, but added 100k count and datalogging. Was an amazing meter for the price: https://www.tequipment.net/Protek620.asp (https://www.tequipment.net/Protek620.asp)

Interesting:"Due to the unreliability of Protek producing this item on time we have discontinued this unit."

I bought a Protek D620 sometime before 2009, primarily for the RS-232 interface. Imagine my disappointment when I get the meter and there is no information on the communication protocol in the manual, just a CD with a Windows .exe. I have no Windows systems (now I do at least have a Win10 disk I can plug in when really needed), I need the meter to work with Linux, or possibly a MacBook. In early 2011, thanks to the work of someone who did the reverse engineering, I was able to write a usable Perl script to collect data from the Protek (an obscure escape sequence to start the data flow, for starters).

I never did use the Protek much but one reason that I leaped on the 121GW, besides being a fanboy, was the promise of an open interface (let's hope that I can talk to it over BLE from Linux, don't need any GUI, just the data!). However, am also buying a 34465A soon, I know that I can talk to it from anything with a network connection (and have been using the DVM feature on my DSOX3024T this weekend to get ready).

I'm glad that I (not a movie guy) learned where '121GW' model number came from...

They simply can't make enough f them due to parts availability.Any available stock goes to Kickstarters first.

Thanks for your answer. Do I understand this right: When UEi will have all the needed parts and all kickstarter meters are delivered,then UEi will produce more 121GW so everybody can buy them?

Cheers,

Andreas

Cheers on them for not doing the Shenzhen routine! (Nothing quite beats calling around to suppliers asking for that one resistor array in a weird format to be able to finish a batch of boards - only to receive crusty parts that look as if they were desoldered and re-reeled)

They simply can't make enough f them due to parts availability.Any available stock goes to Kickstarters first.

Thanks for your answer. Do I understand this right: When UEi will have all the needed parts and all kickstarter meters are delivered,then UEi will produce more 121GW so everybody can buy them?

Cheers,

Andreas

Cheers on them for not doing the Shenzhen routine! (Nothing quite beats calling around to suppliers asking for that one resistor array in a weird format to be able to finish a batch of boards - only to receive crusty parts that look as if they were desoldered and re-reeled)

What? :-//I don't get it. What do you want us to say with your statement?*scratching head*

Fairly simple. Plenty of builds run into supply problems with particular special items. It is so easy to go the low road (Shenzen) or reduce the specification to get units made in the hope the buyers and users won't notice the substitute or change to spec.

They simply can't make enough f them due to parts availability.Any available stock goes to Kickstarters first.

Thanks for your answer. Do I understand this right: When UEi will have all the needed parts and all kickstarter meters are delivered,then UEi will produce more 121GW so everybody can buy them?

Cheers,

Andreas

Cheers on them for not doing the Shenzhen routine! (Nothing quite beats calling around to suppliers asking for that one resistor array in a weird format to be able to finish a batch of boards - only to receive crusty parts that look as if they were desoldered and re-reeled)

What? :-//I don't get it. What do you want us to say with your statement?*scratching head*

If you really *want* components you can usually get them if you call around enough and they're not too exotic, but the sources are questionable at best. You risk things like fakes, desoldered components, reels that were partially used and were sitting in a damp warehouse , ... So the fact that they're running into supplying limitations means they're using reputable distributors who don't just buy up components left and right in an attempt to meet deadlines. :)

If you really *want* components you can usually get them if you call around enough and they're not too exotic, but the sources are questionable at best. You risk things like fakes, desoldered components, reels that were partially used and were sitting in a damp warehouse , ... So the fact that they're running into supplying limitations means they're using reputable distributors who don't just buy up components left and right in an attempt to meet deadlines. :)

I remember Dave talking about this in one of his videos. It's the only way to go if you care about your product.

They simply can't make enough f them due to parts availability.Any available stock goes to Kickstarters first.

Thanks for your answer. Do I understand this right: When UEi will have all the needed parts and all kickstarter meters are delivered,then UEi will produce more 121GW so everybody can buy them?

Cheers,

Andreas

Cheers on them for not doing the Shenzhen routine! (Nothing quite beats calling around to suppliers asking for that one resistor array in a weird format to be able to finish a batch of boards - only to receive crusty parts that look as if they were desoldered and re-reeled)

What? :-//I don't get it. What do you want us to say with your statement?*scratching head*

If you really *want* components you can usually get them if you call around enough and they're not too exotic, but the sources are questionable at best. You risk things like fakes, desoldered components, reels that were partially used and were sitting in a damp warehouse , ... So the fact that they're running into supplying limitations means they're using reputable distributors who don't just buy up components left and right in an attempt to meet deadlines. :)

Or you have to pay a lot to get them from the one person in the world who is sitting on a stash of genuine parts

Yeah, specs are not impressing, but real precision is much better. If we assume that my Keithley is in cal (and "calibration certificate" included with my $5 reference is not complete bullshit), then all the meters read virtually the same (see photos). Let's see long-term stability...

I accidentally purchased two 121GW, both read the same. My only complain so far is a little bit slow autoranging (may be I'm spoiled with Keithley) and update rate. The specs say 5 samples/s, but it's more like one update in two seconds or so. I tried to change "logging interval", no changes. Hope it's a software issue.

Also Low Z doesn't work (shows "0.0") until voltage reaches 11V. First bug? :) Software version "U-1.01". Sound indicator for wrong leads connection only kicks in when trying to use A/mA ports in voltage mode.

They simply can't make enough f them due to parts availability.Any available stock goes to Kickstarters first.

Thanks for your answer. Do I understand this right: When UEi will have all the needed parts and all kickstarter meters are delivered,then UEi will produce more 121GW so everybody can buy them?

Correct.I'm not sure how many times and in how many ways I have to explain this, but I keep getting people who aren't clear on this.1) There are component shortages that are limiting the numbers UEi can produce, and in what time frame they can produce them.2) All stock they can produce will go towards fulfilling KS backer orders, therefor there will be zero stock for anyone else until all KS orders have been fulfilled.3) They are estimating it will be the end of February before excess units above the KS numbers will be available, hence I will not have any in the store for sale until March. It might be earlier if circumstances change, but that has what they have told me.

What brand and type of fuse is in it, that enables it to handle readings in the 121GW range? You’ll be supplying extra fuses for it? Leads/probes?

Thanks :-DD

My calculator cannot work with these numbers. At 100,000 volts maybe a 6 foot diameter fuse may work. But there is a typo, it is 1.21 GW not 121 GW (the decimal is missing from the model number). FYI I read that 1.21 can power about a million homes. So maybe 121 GW can power the US. I wonder what size fuse is needed for the US? I think a 6 foot fuse at 100,000 volts will not last long.

So you need to say what voltage you are using. At 5 volts maybe a fuse that is 1000 feet in diameter may work. Probably all the copper in the world would be needed to make the fuse. I doubt that even Bill Gates could buy one.

Someone with a better calculator needs to do the math. I am waiting for the video showing it measuring 1.21 GW.

What brand and type of fuse is in it, that enables it to handle readings in the 121GW range? You’ll be supplying extra fuses for it? Leads/probes?

Thanks :-DD

My calculator cannot work with these numbers. At 100,000 volts maybe a 6 foot diameter fuse may work.

But there is a typo, it is 1.21 GW not 121 GW (the decimal is missing from the model number). FYI I read that 1.21 can power about a million homes. So maybe 121 GW can power the US. I wonder what size fuse is needed for the US? I think a 6 foot fuse at 100,000 volts will not last long.

So you need to say what voltage you are using. At 5 volts maybe a fuse that is 1000 feet in diameter may work. Probably all the copper in the world would be needed to make the fuse. I doubt that even Bill Gates could buy one.

Someone with a better calculator needs to do the math. I am waiting for the video showing it measuring 1.21 GW.

We canmake it cheaper if made in China, and its a slow acting glass exploding style of fuse. :-DD

I am willing to buy if some one is done after review :-DD.. it is a toy for electronics adults who play and play and rotate and rotate then give up after doing all voltage and current tests on youtube ;D :-DD

>:D Shocking >:D Some fraud created a Indigogo campaign copying Daves credentials for 121GW and he is selling for a $50 discount .. :palm:https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lKCNS85RDdA (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lKCNS85RDdA)

I’m a bit concerned/surprised with the initial reports that auto-ranging seems slow on the 121GW. I seem to remember Dave often pointed out if a DMM seemed slow in his reviews, and also the Brymen meters seems quite fast both in update-rate and auto-ranging so I was hoping the 121GW would at least have similar speed as the Brymen.

I’m backer 924 btw, so I’ve yet to test anything myself. And my initial impression was that the 121GW did not really seem slow when Dave used one of the prototypes in his videos.

I’m a bit concerned/surprised with the initial reports that auto-ranging seems slow on the 121GW. I seem to remember Dave often pointed out if a DMM seemed slow in his reviews, and also the Brymen meters seems quite fast both in update-rate and auto-ranging so I was hoping the 121GW would at least have similar speed as the Brymen.

I’m backer 924 btw, so I’ve yet to test anything myself. And my initial impression was that the 121GW did not really seem slow when Dave used one of the prototypes in his videos.

I don't know about the 121GW, but I don't recall seeing anything faster than the Brymen meters I have used (I currently have a BM857) and the Fluke 179 I had.

Keysight U1233A/U1273A are quite fast as well, in contrast to their new flagship model U1282A.

I’m a bit concerned/surprised with the initial reports that auto-ranging seems slow on the 121GW. I seem to remember Dave often pointed out if a DMM seemed slow in his reviews, and also the Brymen meters seems quite fast both in update-rate and auto-ranging so I was hoping the 121GW would at least have similar speed as the Brymen.

I’m backer 924 btw, so I’ve yet to test anything myself. And my initial impression was that the 121GW did not really seem slow when Dave used one of the prototypes in his videos.

I don't know about the 121GW, but I don't recall seeing anything faster than the Brymen meters I have used (I currently have a BM857) and the Fluke 179 I had.

Keysight U1233A/U1273A are quite fast as well, in contrast to their new flagship model U1282A.

Thanks for your input, yeah I agree the Brymen are fast. And the 121GW also goes all the way down to milli-ohms resolution so taking a bit longer would be understandable, still - auto-ranging from open circuit to short seems about 5-6 sec, ouch!

I’m surely hoping that a fastmode with lesser resolution can/will be implemented, that i.e. puts the meter in a 5000 count mode. If it isn’t a FW bug that’s slowing the meter down.

should I take your statement as a confirmation that the 121GW is indeed slow?

It didn't seem slow when I watched someone test it.

I guess everything is relative but here it seemed slower than I was expecting from a meter with 5 updates/sec.

I had wondered if it could not run in a low res mode then switch to high res to get it to lock in faster. The 121GW uses the same front end chipset used in another meter that Dave had reviewed and I though the settling time was discussed back then. I would guess some of the people who bought one have more than one meter. Maybe others will do a side by side comparison to give you a better idea how it compares.

Even better: Do a binary chop instead of a linear search (ie. start in the middle) :popcorn:

Yeah, this also surprised me why using linear search? :(. With 50k counts just one measurement at mid-range it is enough to fully determine the required range, imho. So, no need for search most of the time.

I was also thinking about a dedicated comparator that would just "know" which range is needed. But it might be possible to just activate a high sample rate at an overload event (if available, the manual says max sample rate is 5 samples/s, but there might be a higher rate at reduced resolution).

I'd also try to align numbers to the left so when it down-ranges it would just display extra digits of resolution at right.

should I take your statement as a confirmation that the 121GW is indeed slow?

It didn't seem slow when I watched someone test it.

I guess everything is relative but here it seemed slower than I was expecting from a meter with 5 updates/sec.

I had wondered if it could not run in a low res mode then switch to high res to get it to lock in faster. The 121GW uses the same front end chipset used in another meter that Dave had reviewed and I though the settling time was discussed back then. I would guess some of the people who bought one have more than one meter. Maybe others will do a side by side comparison to give you a better idea how it compares.

Presumably it's already doing fast sampling for the bargraph display - it should be using this for ranging. Does kinda bring up questions of firmware quality if it's doing such basic things so obviously wrong..

I just uploaded the review of auto rage time on measuring resistance on 121GW multi-meter, comparing with other two meters from Keysight and Hioki.In the future the software updates might speed up the auto-rage but not clear at the moment.

The measurement speed on resistance by manual rage on 121GW had no issue.

Hope current behavior is a bug, not a workaround around a hardware problem or limitation.

I bet alot of it is firmware. The chipset has the ability to increase the sample rate. The U1272A also does a 300Mohm to 30ohm in decade steps when auto-ranging, but it does it much faster. And a more intelligent auto-ranging method (divide and conquer / binary search or simply get one reading at the highest range and use its result to set the range for the next reading with 50k counts it should converge quickly) would be even faster.

If a GitHub project is started at some point, it would be nice to see if the Bluetooth can be used the implement a simple UART link with SCPI.

I'm 100% sure they knew about all the problems as they are apparent. I think Dave said firmware was one of the reasons to delay. My guess is they decided to send batch anyway and issue hotfix later. I don't really care about being a beta-tester, but I want to know an estimation when issues gonna be fixed.

Or I want to try to fix them by myself, but I need FW sources (which they don't want to share). At least could disable that damn beeper. So, I hope this meter won't be yet another good devices destroyed by software problems.

BTW, guys, is it only my meters do not display low voltages in Low Z mode?

it would be nice to see if the Bluetooth can be used the implement a simple UART link with SCPI.

AFAIK Dave said the BT chip manufacturer screwed BT firmware and UART mode disappeared. They couldn't replace it because at that point the meter got its expensive certificates, so they decided not to change it to avoid further delays. But may be hardware mods are still possible. Or a good library that would wrap nasty code in a good API.

Poor implementation of something as fundamental as autoranging suggests it's more of a software design issue than a bug.

Sadly I have to agree with you. Without seeing the source code it is tough to say definitively thought. Would be nice to get the schematics from Dave, and write some test code to show that the hardware can do fast auto-ranging.

it would be nice to see if the Bluetooth can be used the implement a simple UART link with SCPI.

That's precisely what I am waiting for (for adapting a few Profilab programs of mine).But there does not seem to be much hope. Will have to wait and see. Will only buy one, if this UART thing (i.e. communication via virtual COM on Windows PC) is working.

AFAIK Dave said the BT chip manufacturer screwed BT firmware and UART mode disappeared. They couldn't replace it because at that point the meter got its expensive certificates, so they decided not to change it to avoid further delays. But may be hardware mods are still possible. Or a good library that would wrap nasty code in a good API.

it would be nice to see if the Bluetooth can be used the implement a simple UART link with SCPI.

AFAIK Dave said the BT chip manufacturer screwed BT firmware and UART mode disappeared. They couldn't replace it because at that point the meter got its expensive certificates, so they decided not to change it to avoid further delays. But may be hardware mods are still possible. Or a good library that would wrap nasty code in a good API.

Bluetooth LE does not have serial UART capability. We tried workaround to implement this but it wasn't possible so far as we could find.The module is using the Bluegiga Cable Replacement interface.We have talked about using a matching module in a USB dongle and then formatting into a SCPI UART string. i.e. doing it with dedicated hardware. Maybe there is even an off-the-shelf dongle wiht the Bluegiga module that could be re-programmed to do this?

Bluetooth LE does not have serial UART capability. We tried workaround to implement this but it wasn't possible so far as we could find.The module is using the Bluegiga Cable Replacement interface.We have talked about using a matching module in a USB dongle and then formatting into a SCPI UART string. i.e. doing it with dedicated hardware. Maybe there is even an off-the-shelf dongle wiht the Bluegiga module that could be re-programmed to do this?

SPP mode is only specified for BT2.0 (or 2.1?) and not available for BT4.0. Additionally, SPP is not supported on iOS.It would be relatively easy to write some virtual serial port software for PCs that takes in the meter's BTLE data. I think once the meters become more available, someone will write such an application. Then you have the advantage of being able to emulate almost any meter, if your LabView code (or whatever) depends on special formatting.

should I take your statement as a confirmation that the 121GW is indeed slow?

It didn't seem slow when I watched someone test it.

I guess everything is relative but here it seemed slower than I was expecting from a meter with 5 updates/sec.

I had wondered if it could not run in a low res mode then switch to high res to get it to lock in faster. The 121GW uses the same front end chipset used in another meter that Dave had reviewed and I though the settling time was discussed back then. I would guess some of the people who bought one have more than one meter. Maybe others will do a side by side comparison to give you a better idea how it compares.

There are more threads on the 121GW than there are meters. It's getting hard to know where to post. Because I do not view the slow autorange as a bug, I'll will keep my comments here.

I don't understand the big surprise about the slow autorange. I thought we had discussed this some time ago and I certainly showed it in a few of my videos. I thought I had even made a comment about them using a chip set that Dave had previously commented on it being slow. :-// Did people not understand what VERY SLOW meant?

There may have been a way to overcome it as people have suggested but it seems like if it were an easy fix, it would have been addressed prior to the release. Maybe Dave will comment on it.

I am looking forward to seeing reviews of the more complex features, for example reading the power of a 110/220 LED bulb, showing the BT, trying some long term data logging to the memory card (over night sort of thing). For those of you who have received their meters and have taken the time to run some of these early test, I appreciate your efforts.

... trying some long term data logging to the memory card (over night sort of thing). For those of you who have received their meters and have taken the time to run some of these early test, I appreciate your efforts.

I wouldn't call the slow Auto Range a bug either but certainly the firmware code and or the methodology used for it could stand to be looked at and revised.

Had a quick play with the bluetooth and android app last night, simple enough to drive and use. I will see about maybe running a test for a few hours of raw Temperature data in my shack today (25+ degreesC at 10am and climbing).

Number of threads is simple, this one is pre release IMO. The one I put some test data into is current use and general thoughts and user questions and the bugs one is for simple reporting of issues for Dave to look at not whining and bitching or discussing :box:

I thought we had discussed this some time ago and I certainly showed it in a few of my videos.

It was a pre-production unit and I had an impression that a lot of effort was put to make it clear that "it's not a final performance, do not judge product by those videos". So, sorry, I completely disagree with your comment "you knew what you were buying".

Apart from that, for obvious reasons people had some (imho reasonable) expectations. Because this is Dave, because he knows what he is doing, etc. Even though Dave told it several times that he is only supervising the project and not directly involved in development. It has EEVBlog brand on it, which people trust. Please stop saying "I told you it's a slow meter, watch my videos better next time". That's not nice, not productive and you are not involved in this product (I'm not offending, I'm expressing how it looks to me, sorry if I'm wrong).

Anyway, I personally want to keep the conversation technical. And for me the biggest questions are: 1) can community help somehow with the issues 2) what is next? Shall we wait for firmware updates or this is the final version of the product and no further improvements are to be expected?

I thought we had discussed this some time ago and I certainly showed it in a few of my videos.

It was a pre-production unit and I had an impression that a lot of effort was put to make it clear that "it's not a final performance, do not judge product by those videos". So, sorry, I completely disagree with your comment "you knew what you were buying".

Apart from that, for obvious reasons people had some (imho reasonable) expectations. Because this is Dave, because he knows what he is doing, etc. Even though Dave told it several times that he is only supervising the project and not directly involved in development. It has EEVBlog brand on it, which people trust. Please stop saying "I told you it's a slow meter, watch my videos better next time". That's not nice, not productive and you are not involved in this product (I'm not offending, I'm expressing how it looks to me, sorry if I'm wrong).

Anyway, I personally want to keep the conversation technical. And for me the biggest questions are: 1) can community help somehow with the issues 2) what is next? Shall we wait for firmware updates or this is the final version of the product and no further improvements are to be expected?

Interesting that you quote a comment that I never seem to have made. While I am suggesting the information has been available for some time, based on several of these posts I doubt that everyone took the time to do their research. That responsibility is on the buyer.

I am sure I have made several comments about the meter I looked at having been a prototype and that the final product may behave differently. That would almost go without saying but it did seem to still cause a fair amount of confusion. That said, if people were concerned about what they saw and did not follow up to make sure their concerns were addressed prior to ordering, who's fault is that?

Scratch that. Looks like you've maybe got it backwards? Look at the permissions and number of downloads.

I think that was caused by the Google App Store search. When I tried to search for EEVBLOG or 121GW yesterday, initially I got nothing and then with persistence, I got the non-EEVBLOG app only. I did not get the correct App in the search at all. Today I am getting both 121GW Apps with the same searches.

I thought we had discussed this some time ago and I certainly showed it in a few of my videos.

It was a pre-production unit and I had an impression that a lot of effort was put to make it clear that "it's not a final performance, do not judge product by those videos". So, sorry, I completely disagree with your comment "you knew what you were buying".

Apart from that, for obvious reasons people had some (imho reasonable) expectations. Because this is Dave, because he knows what he is doing, etc. Even though Dave told it several times that he is only supervising the project and not directly involved in development. It has EEVBlog brand on it, which people trust. Please stop saying "I told you it's a slow meter, watch my videos better next time". That's not nice, not productive and you are not involved in this product (I'm not offending, I'm expressing how it looks to me, sorry if I'm wrong).

Anyway, I personally want to keep the conversation technical. And for me the biggest questions are: 1) can community help somehow with the issues 2) what is next? Shall we wait for firmware updates or this is the final version of the product and no further improvements are to be expected?

While I am suggesting the information has been available for some time, based on several of these posts I doubt that everyone took the time to do their research. That responsibility is on the buyer.

I am sure I have made several comments about the meter I looked at having been a prototype and that the final product may behave differently. That would almost go without saying but it did seem to still cause a fair amount of confusion. That said, if people were concerned about what they saw and did not follow up to make sure their concerns were addressed prior to ordering, who's fault is that?

Joe, I think the point still stands that the current behavior is undesirable and should be improved if possible. Also, I don't think it's reasonable to expect everyone to have watched your videos or perused through a bunch of disperse forum threads to get a full picture of the meter. If you were simply coming from the Kickstarter campaign, you would have no idea about the current auto-ranging situation. Personally, I expected a comprehensive "review" of the meter from Dave himself and was surprised at the one short Kickstarter video he put out.

On the issue of feedback and follow-up, I don't think it was ever publicly elicited from members of the forum or the community at large prior to launch.

I thought we had discussed this some time ago and I certainly showed it in a few of my videos.

It was a pre-production unit and I had an impression that a lot of effort was put to make it clear that "it's not a final performance, do not judge product by those videos". So, sorry, I completely disagree with your comment "you knew what you were buying".

Apart from that, for obvious reasons people had some (imho reasonable) expectations. Because this is Dave, because he knows what he is doing, etc. Even though Dave told it several times that he is only supervising the project and not directly involved in development. It has EEVBlog brand on it, which people trust. Please stop saying "I told you it's a slow meter, watch my videos better next time". That's not nice, not productive and you are not involved in this product (I'm not offending, I'm expressing how it looks to me, sorry if I'm wrong).

Anyway, I personally want to keep the conversation technical. And for me the biggest questions are: 1) can community help somehow with the issues 2) what is next? Shall we wait for firmware updates or this is the final version of the product and no further improvements are to be expected?

While I am suggesting the information has been available for some time, based on several of these posts I doubt that everyone took the time to do their research. That responsibility is on the buyer.

I am sure I have made several comments about the meter I looked at having been a prototype and that the final product may behave differently. That would almost go without saying but it did seem to still cause a fair amount of confusion. That said, if people were concerned about what they saw and did not follow up to make sure their concerns were addressed prior to ordering, who's fault is that?

Joe, I think the point still stands that the current behavior is undesirable and should be improved if possible. Also, I don't think it's reasonable to expect everyone to have watched your videos or perused through a bunch of disperse forum threads to get a full picture of the meter. If you were simply coming from the Kickstarter campaign, you would have no idea about the current auto-ranging situation. Personally, I expected a comprehensive "review" of the meter from Dave himself and was surprised at the one short Kickstarter video he put out.

On the issue of feedback and follow-up, I don't think it was ever publicly elicited from members of the forum or the community at large prior to launch.

I am certainly not suggesting that this delay is desired. Based on Dave's post on the Keysight meter, it would seem he would agree with you as well. I am not expecting anyone to following my videos. I am only suggesting that I had brought this up some time ago. I too was expecting to see Dave or independent detailed reviews of the meter prior to the kickstarter but it didn't seem to have hurt the sales. If you placed an order on blind faith, I can't see a reason to be too upset over how the meter performs after it arrives. Maybe they can find a way to improve it.

should I take your statement as a confirmation that the 121GW is indeed slow?

It didn't seem slow when I watched someone test it.

I guess everything is relative but here it seemed slower than I was expecting from a meter with 5 updates/sec.

I had wondered if it could not run in a low res mode then switch to high res to get it to lock in faster. The 121GW uses the same front end chipset used in another meter that Dave had reviewed and I though the settling time was discussed back then. I would guess some of the people who bought one have more than one meter. Maybe others will do a side by side comparison to give you a better idea how it compares.

There are more threads on the 121GW than there are meters. It's getting hard to know where to post. Because I do not view the slow autorange as a bug, I'll will keep my comments here.

I don't understand the big surprise about the slow autorange. I thought we had discussed this some time ago and I certainly showed it in a few of my videos. I thought I had even made a comment about them using a chip set that Dave had previously commented on it being slow. :-// Did people not understand what VERY SLOW meant?

There may have been a way to overcome it as people have suggested but it seems like if it were an easy fix, it would have been addressed prior to the release. Maybe Dave will comment on it.

I am looking forward to seeing reviews of the more complex features, for example reading the power of a 110/220 LED bulb, showing the BT, trying some long term data logging to the memory card (over night sort of thing). For those of you who have received their meters and have taken the time to run some of these early test, I appreciate your efforts.

IMHO the slow continuity test is a letdown but I would consider it as part of the product and not necessarily a defect. Even having gone through quite an innovatively transparent design process, which naturally elevated the expectations from Dave's followers, this is still a version "1.0" of a new product, thus such risks are to be expected.

If this is a full "soft DMM" like a modern Fluke, then it may be quite possible the firmware corrects that, but if the product uses a custom DMM chipset then the chances are much narrower.

That is not an enviable situation - Dave moved from the street as a very vocal "stone thrower" to become the owner of a shiny glass house...

should I take your statement as a confirmation that the 121GW is indeed slow?

It didn't seem slow when I watched someone test it.

I guess everything is relative but here it seemed slower than I was expecting from a meter with 5 updates/sec.

I had wondered if it could not run in a low res mode then switch to high res to get it to lock in faster. The 121GW uses the same front end chipset used in another meter that Dave had reviewed and I though the settling time was discussed back then. I would guess some of the people who bought one have more than one meter. Maybe others will do a side by side comparison to give you a better idea how it compares.

There are more threads on the 121GW than there are meters. It's getting hard to know where to post. Because I do not view the slow autorange as a bug, I'll will keep my comments here.

I don't understand the big surprise about the slow autorange. I thought we had discussed this some time ago and I certainly showed it in a few of my videos. I thought I had even made a comment about them using a chip set that Dave had previously commented on it being slow. :-// Did people not understand what VERY SLOW meant?

You seem to be referring to this thread: https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/looking-for-a-new-handheld-multimeter-with-fast-autorange-keysight-u1282a/msg1014173/#msg1014173 (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/looking-for-a-new-handheld-multimeter-with-fast-autorange-keysight-u1282a/msg1014173/#msg1014173)

But I can't find where the 121GW is ever mentioned or that it had the same issues as U1282A.

Could you please provide a link to where it was "discussed some time ago".

There are more threads on the 121GW than there are meters. It's getting hard to know where to post. Because I do not view the slow autorange as a bug, I'll will keep my comments here.

I don't understand the big surprise about the slow autorange. I thought we had discussed this some time ago and I certainly showed it in a few of my videos. I thought I had even made a comment about them using a chip set that Dave had previously commented on it being slow. :-// Did people not understand what VERY SLOW meant?

There may have been a way to overcome it as people have suggested but it seems like if it were an easy fix, it would have been addressed prior to the release. Maybe Dave will comment on it.

I am looking forward to seeing reviews of the more complex features, for example reading the power of a 110/220 LED bulb, showing the BT, trying some long term data logging to the memory card (over night sort of thing). For those of you who have received their meters and have taken the time to run some of these early test, I appreciate your efforts.

There are more threads on the 121GW than there are meters. It's getting hard to know where to post. Because I do not view the slow autorange as a bug, I'll will keep my comments here.

I don't understand the big surprise about the slow autorange. I thought we had discussed this some time ago and I certainly showed it in a few of my videos. I thought I had even made a comment about them using a chip set that Dave had previously commented on it being slow. :-// Did people not understand what VERY SLOW meant?

There may have been a way to overcome it as people have suggested but it seems like if it were an easy fix, it would have been addressed prior to the release. Maybe Dave will comment on it.

I am looking forward to seeing reviews of the more complex features, for example reading the power of a 110/220 LED bulb, showing the BT, trying some long term data logging to the memory card (over night sort of thing). For those of you who have received their meters and have taken the time to run some of these early test, I appreciate your efforts.

should I take your statement as a confirmation that the 121GW is indeed slow?

It didn't seem slow when I watched someone test it.

I guess everything is relative but here it seemed slower than I was expecting from a meter with 5 updates/sec.

I had wondered if it could not run in a low res mode then switch to high res to get it to lock in faster. The 121GW uses the same front end chipset used in another meter that Dave had reviewed and I though the settling time was discussed back then. I would guess some of the people who bought one have more than one meter. Maybe others will do a side by side comparison to give you a better idea how it compares.

There are more threads on the 121GW than there are meters. It's getting hard to know where to post. Because I do not view the slow autorange as a bug, I'll will keep my comments here.

I don't understand the big surprise about the slow autorange. I thought we had discussed this some time ago and I certainly showed it in a few of my videos. I thought I had even made a comment about them using a chip set that Dave had previously commented on it being slow. :-// Did people not understand what VERY SLOW meant?

You seem to be referring to this thread: https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/looking-for-a-new-handheld-multimeter-with-fast-autorange-keysight-u1282a/msg1014173/#msg1014173 (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/looking-for-a-new-handheld-multimeter-with-fast-autorange-keysight-u1282a/msg1014173/#msg1014173)

But I can't find where the 121GW is ever mentioned or that it had the same issues as U1282A.

Could you please provide a link to where it was "discussed some time ago".

Again, the statements were:

Quote

I thought we had discussed this some time ago and I certainly showed it in a few of my videos. I thought I had even made a comment about them using a chip set that Dave had previously commented on it being slow. :-// Did people not understand what VERY SLOW meant?

To be clear, thought or if you rather, had a feeling. This is not an absolute. While I did take the time to find Dave's comment about the Keysight meter I mentioned, I did not look for anything else. If you decide to research it, be aware that some of the discussions may have been in the comment section of the videos I posted and later pulled. I did not think they would be historically important. You may find some information in the contributors area and also in my long standing thread. Sorry I am not of much help and am really going off of memory.

Oh, that. But I think that was a paraphrase of "Did people not understand what VERY SLOW meant?"

My comment of "very slow" was referring to how Dave described the U1282A that was based on the same front end chip set that the 121GW was based on. Again, I am only pointing out that there was data available. Bread crumbs perhaps.

My comment of "very slow" was referring to how Dave described the U1282A that was based on the same front end chip set that the 121GW was based on. Again, I am only pointing out that there was data available. Bread crumbs perhaps.

I don't know, since I don't have one yet.

But I don't really think I would be that bothered. If I only had one resistor to test, I can wait 7 seconds. If I had a batch to test, I would put the meter in manual range mode first, or I would use another meter.

Since there is the option for firmware updates, it might be improved later anyway.

My comment of "very slow" was referring to how Dave described the U1282A that was based on the same front end chip set that the 121GW was based on. Again, I am only pointing out that there was data available. Bread crumbs perhaps.

I don't know, since I don't have one yet.

But I don't really think I would be that bothered. If I only had one resistor to test, I can wait 7 seconds. If I had a batch to test, I would put the meter in manual range mode first, or I would use another meter.

Since there is the option for firmware updates, it might be improved later anyway.

If you watch the video Akira Tsukamoto posted, he did not wait for the meter to settle and you can see how the meter gets faster. If you were looking at a batch of parts, even the auto range may be fast enough as long as you don't let it settle. I'm with you in that it really would not be that big of a deal for me. If the continuity were slow, for me that would be a deal breaker.

Not that it really matters but another meter that is along the same settling time as the 121GW is that Gossen M248B. As many things that I brought up with that meter, I am not sure I focused on the speed. Then again, that meter has a LOT of problems.

With Dave's meter, I am more interested in seeing how well it can calculate power. I had made a demo of the power measurement and ran into a few snags that didn't really concern me too much with it being a prototype. I think we discussed that in my main thread. I think Dave was suggesting I was not using the meter correctly and I think I was confused about how it handled the internal losses. I think they revisited that so I am expecting it to be improved.

should I take your statement as a confirmation that the 121GW is indeed slow?

It didn't seem slow when I watched someone test it.

I guess everything is relative but here it seemed slower than I was expecting from a meter with 5 updates/sec.

I had wondered if it could not run in a low res mode then switch to high res to get it to lock in faster. The 121GW uses the same front end chipset used in another meter that Dave had reviewed and I though the settling time was discussed back then. I would guess some of the people who bought one have more than one meter. Maybe others will do a side by side comparison to give you a better idea how it compares.

There are more threads on the 121GW than there are meters. It's getting hard to know where to post. Because I do not view the slow autorange as a bug, I'll will keep my comments here.

I don't understand the big surprise about the slow autorange. I thought we had discussed this some time ago and I certainly showed it in a few of my videos. I thought I had even made a comment about them using a chip set that Dave had previously commented on it being slow. :-// Did people not understand what VERY SLOW meant?

There may have been a way to overcome it as people have suggested but it seems like if it were an easy fix, it would have been addressed prior to the release. Maybe Dave will comment on it.

I am looking forward to seeing reviews of the more complex features, for example reading the power of a 110/220 LED bulb, showing the BT, trying some long term data logging to the memory card (over night sort of thing). For those of you who have received their meters and have taken the time to run some of these early test, I appreciate your efforts.

Sorry Joe, but I've only occasionally watched your youtube videos (there's only 24hrs in a day). And I'm not a read-every-post kind of guy. I personally think this limitation should have been disclosed on the Kickstarter page. Some people may feel fine with the slow response, some won't. Would I purchase one had I known of this problem? Probably not (don't really need another multimeter). To me, 6-7 seconds is unacceptable. I've always appreciated Dave for his honesty and straightforwardness, so I'm hoping this can be corrected.

Anyway, I personally want to keep the conversation technical. And for me the biggest questions are: 1) can community help somehow with the issues

Apart form reporting issues, no they cannot. UEi are in control of the firmware.I have the actual firmware but we have not even tried to compile it.

Quote

2) what is next? Shall we wait for firmware updates or this is the final version of the product and no further improvements are to be expected?

The firmware will get refined.If you have an issue then report it in the thread for this:https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/eevblog-121gw-multimeter-issues/ (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/eevblog-121gw-multimeter-issues/)

Thanks, Dave, for explaining the situation. Have a nice vacation! (BTW, sorry for asking again, if required, I could sign an NDA, etc to help with the firmware. But I understand that I don't have enough trust/reputation to be given access.).

joeqsmith, I see your point, please see mine about not being able to see tests of final product. Sorry if my point seems to be stupid to you. I'm not an EE, I don't have even 5% of your experience.

Anyway, I stay positive. I wanted some EEVBlog swag, now I have it.

I'd try making my own FW, but without an SDK or a working "hello world" example I have zero chances to succeed. But hopefully other forum members are smarter than me.

The firmware will get refined.If you have an issue then report it in the thread for this:https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/eevblog-121gw-multimeter-issues/ (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/eevblog-121gw-multimeter-issues/)

Not that I don't appreciate your continuous efforts, but make sure to get some rest and not spend too much time dealing with the forums or customer support. Taking some distance from your day to day affairs is invaluable!

Me either, but I am getting a certain amount of shadenfreude from the wails of anguish in these threads. :popcorn:

A whole load of people seem to have bought this meter without watching any of the videos Dave/joe has been posting or reading any of the threads on what it is or where it comes from. I guess that's the EEVBLOG effect in action.

Reality check: It's mostly an off-the-shelf, 0.05% meter*. It's not a meter designed by Dave, it's not been built to his specifications.

It's a good meter for the money. It's safe, it has data logging, it has Bluetooth, it has a bunch of features that not many other meters in this class have, eg. display of power. These extra features are the reason you'd buy this meter, IMHO.

It doesn't have any of the fancy laser-trimmed resistors, etc., that make Flukes what they are. If it was a Fluke 87 for half the money but with loads more features then we'd have known about this brand a long time ago.

(*) It appears to do better than 0.05% in tests but you'd have no right to complain if it didn't.

Me either, but I am getting a certain amount of shadenfreude from the wails of anguish in these threads. :popcorn:

A whole load of people seem to have bought this meter without watching any of the videos Dave/joe has been posting or reading any of the threads on what it is or where it comes from. I guess that's the EEVBLOG effect in action.

This sure seems to be the case. Maybe just wanting to be part of something, hard to say. If the meter did have known problems, I could see where producing a full review may have hurt sales. I guess it depends on your long and short term goals.

Reality check: It's mostly an off-the-shelf, 0.05% meter*. It's not a meter designed by Dave, it's not been built to his specifications.

It's a good meter for the money. It's safe, it has data logging, it has Bluetooth, it has a bunch of features that not many other meters in this class have, eg. display of power. These extra features are the reason you'd buy this meter, IMHO.

I agree, the meter does have some nice features that make it unique and if you had the need why not. Personally, I would want to see those unique features fully working before I bought one but the price makes it fairly low risk which may also help explain people buying on faith.

It doesn't have any of the fancy laser-trimmed resistors, etc., that make Flukes what they are. If it was a Fluke 87 for half the money but with loads more features then we'd have known about this brand a long time ago.

(*) It appears to do better than 0.05% in tests but you'd have no right to complain if it didn't.

LOL. I somehow don't get the feeling we will see the same level of quality from UEI as Fluke. History my prove me wrong.

A whole load of people seem to have bought this meter without watching any of the videos Dave/joe has been posting or reading any of the threads on what it is or where it comes from. I guess that's the EEVBLOG effect in action.[/quote]

This sure seems to be the case. Maybe just wanting to be part of something, hard to say. If the meter did have known problems, I could see where producing a full review may have hurt sales. I guess it depends on your long and short term goals.

[/quote]I think it's quite reasonable to expect a meter with the EEVBLOG branding on it to meet certain minimum standards, like acceptable autorange speed.

I think it's quite reasonable to expect a meter with the EEVBLOG branding on it to meet certain minimum standards, like acceptable autorange speed.

This is the reason for unbiased reviews. The meter has a lot of features and minimum standards will mean something different depending who you ask. Even if Dave felt uncomfortable with producing a review because of the bias (perceived or otherwise), I was hoping he would send a few off to the large YT channels to review before offering them. I thought the guy that offered that high speed camera had the right idea. Sure there were sites that it was wasted on but a few sites really took the time to show it off. I think that paid off.

I think we are just starting to scratch the surface on the UEI meter. Give it a few months. I did go back and look at my Gossen BTW doing a side by side comparison and I would say the settling time is a wash between the two. The Gossen is ever so slightly faster (half second or so).

I think it's quite reasonable to expect a meter with the EEVBLOG branding on it to meet certain minimum standards, like acceptable autorange speed.

Absolutely!

Quote from: Fungus

A whole load of people seem to have bought this meter without watching any of the videos Dave/joe has been posting or reading any of the threads on what it is or where it comes from. I guess that's the EEVBLOG effect in action.

Guys, please stop this nonsense. Nobody seen/reviewed the final version of the meter. There weren't any reviews and the meter has very obvious problems. Problems that if Dave was reviewing this meter it wouldn't get a good score, imho.

There are problems that are fixable and I'd like them to be fixed. Please stop telling "but this a unique product, it is still worth the money". It's not about it, it's about stupid problems the meter has.

I think it's quite reasonable to expect a meter with the EEVBLOG branding on it to meet certain minimum standards, like acceptable autorange speed.

This is the reason for unbiased reviews. The meter has a lot of features and minimum standards will mean something different depending who you ask. Even if Dave felt uncomfortable with producing a review because of the bias (perceived or otherwise), I was hoping he would send a few off to the large YT channels to review before offering them. I thought the guy that offered that high speed camera had the right idea. Sure there were sites that it was wasted on but a few sites really took the time to show it off. I think that paid off.

I think we are just starting to scratch the surface on the UEI meter. Give it a few months. I did go back and look at my Gossen BTW doing a side by side comparison and I would say the settling time is a wash between the two. The Gossen is ever so slightly faster (half second or so).

The point I was making is that you'd expect that Dave, would tell the manufacturer that it needs to meet certain minimum standards.It has features that make it unique, but if it's inadequate in other areas, it lessens its value as a general-purpose meter that improves upon the competition and becomes more of a niche instrument that only gets used when the unique features are needed

So yes, I think one can expect some quirks when buying an initial revision. I just got it today and can confirm some of the complaints in the issue thread and even found some new ones. I'll report those seperately. I'm not gonna whine about them.

This is not my only meter, but the only one, that has SD-card logging and bluetooth.

I guess most people bought it (like me) because they wanted some swag or a toy, so I got what I wanted. Until it proves otherwise I consider it a toy and I think I got a nice one.

I am actually delighted at the quality. It is a Kickstarter campaign, I have one of the first 500 meters made, and so far the hardware seems really excellent. I expected the firmware to be imperfect, but it is very close. Do you think the firmware on the very first production units from Fluke, Keysight, etc to be perfect? The truth is you never see these units. You see meter 1000 or 100000. They are pretty good by then.

Slow autoranging, beeping, the autoranging bug in VA readings, Bluetooth issues, inability to be able to download SD files via Bluetooth. I don't see any of those as significant problems at this stage. They will improve for sure.

Did I want to wait an extra month of two for the firmware to be perfected? Absolutely not. It still would have had bugs anyway. When Dave starts selling on Amazon, the meters will have had firmware and perhaps even hardware fixes. If you want a polished meter, then of course you should wait for the Amazon meters.

The problems so far don't worry me very much since they can (all?) be fixed with firmware updates.It may take a significant amount of time until the firmware is "perfect" but I'm sure we will get there eventually. :phew:

Me either, but I am getting a certain amount of shadenfreude from the wails of anguish in these threads. :popcorn:

A whole load of people seem to have bought this meter without watching any of the videos Dave/joe has been posting or reading any of the threads on what it is or where it comes from. I guess that's the EEVBLOG effect in action.

Reality check: It's mostly an off-the-shelf, 0.05% meter*. It's not a meter designed by Dave, it's not been built to his specifications.

It's a good meter for the money. It's safe, it has data logging, it has Bluetooth, it has a bunch of features that not many other meters in this class have, eg. display of power. These extra features are the reason you'd buy this meter, IMHO.

It doesn't have any of the fancy laser-trimmed resistors, etc., that make Flukes what they are. If it was a Fluke 87 for half the money but with loads more features then we'd have known about this brand a long time ago.

(*) It appears to do better than 0.05% in tests but you'd have no right to complain if it didn't.

A whole load of people seem to have bought this meter without watching any of the videos Dave/joe has been posting or reading any of the threads on what it is or where it comes from. I guess that's the EEVBLOG effect in action.

The speed of the auto-ranging is a fairly basic question, but I guess you did not pay much attention to the videos yourself(?)

I think it's quite reasonable to expect a meter with the EEVBLOG branding on it to meet certain minimum standards, like acceptable autorange speed.

This is the reason for unbiased reviews. The meter has a lot of features and minimum standards will mean something different depending who you ask. Even if Dave felt uncomfortable with producing a review because of the bias (perceived or otherwise), I was hoping he would send a few off to the large YT channels to review before offering them. I thought the guy that offered that high speed camera had the right idea. Sure there were sites that it was wasted on but a few sites really took the time to show it off. I think that paid off.

I think we are just starting to scratch the surface on the UEI meter. Give it a few months. I did go back and look at my Gossen BTW doing a side by side comparison and I would say the settling time is a wash between the two. The Gossen is ever so slightly faster (half second or so).

The point I was making is that you'd expect that Dave, would tell the manufacturer that it needs to meet certain minimum standards.It has features that make it unique, but if it's inadequate in other areas, it lessens its value as a general-purpose meter that improves upon the competition and becomes more of a niche instrument that only gets used when the unique features are needed

I agree with you and assume that the time required the the meter to settle was considered to meet their minimum standards. However, that does not mean it meets your minimum standards.

Do we know the actual update rate on the bargraph? the manual only states “fast updating" and then there is the “5 times per second nominal”.

Could we get a figure or estimate on the bargraph update speed? (or is this info also >hidden< in some now deleted videos or comments thread)

I read the manual and you appear correct. I had made a video showing the speed of the prototype compared with my BM869s and UT181A. These are some of the fastest ones I have come across. I can tell you that the prototype was not as fast but still impressive. I could make that clip public but would rather someone run the released version instead as the results may be different.

We know Dave have seen many prototypes, so he must be familiar with the update speed, except if it is due to the last change to the ohm range (Something about the the highest ohm range).

Anyway I would say around 3 second in ohm range would be fairly normal.

I am looking forward to get the meter in a month or two and check it out (I will do a review). The main reasons I got the meter was the low burden voltage and the 15V diode mode. I wonder if the VA mode is useful, I will probably continue to use my meter with a real W mode.

I think it's quite reasonable to expect a meter with the EEVBLOG branding on it to meet certain minimum standards, like acceptable autorange speed.

This is the reason for unbiased reviews. The meter has a lot of features and minimum standards will mean something different depending who you ask. Even if Dave felt uncomfortable with producing a review because of the bias (perceived or otherwise), I was hoping he would send a few off to the large YT channels to review before offering them. I thought the guy that offered that high speed camera had the right idea. Sure there were sites that it was wasted on but a few sites really took the time to show it off. I think that paid off.

I think we are just starting to scratch the surface on the UEI meter. Give it a few months. I did go back and look at my Gossen BTW doing a side by side comparison and I would say the settling time is a wash between the two. The Gossen is ever so slightly faster (half second or so).

The point I was making is that you'd expect that Dave, would tell the manufacturer that it needs to meet certain minimum standards.It has features that make it unique, but if it's inadequate in other areas, it lessens its value as a general-purpose meter that improves upon the competition and becomes more of a niche instrument that only gets used when the unique features are needed

I agree with you and assume that the time required the the meter to settle was considered to meet their minimum standards. However, that does not mean it meets your minimum standards.

I think it's quite reasonable to expect a meter with the EEVBLOG branding on it to meet certain minimum standards, like acceptable autorange speed.

This is the reason for unbiased reviews. The meter has a lot of features and minimum standards will mean something different depending who you ask. Even if Dave felt uncomfortable with producing a review because of the bias (perceived or otherwise), I was hoping he would send a few off to the large YT channels to review before offering them. I thought the guy that offered that high speed camera had the right idea. Sure there were sites that it was wasted on but a few sites really took the time to show it off. I think that paid off.

I think we are just starting to scratch the surface on the UEI meter. Give it a few months. I did go back and look at my Gossen BTW doing a side by side comparison and I would say the settling time is a wash between the two. The Gossen is ever so slightly faster (half second or so).

The point I was making is that you'd expect that Dave, would tell the manufacturer that it needs to meet certain minimum standards.It has features that make it unique, but if it's inadequate in other areas, it lessens its value as a general-purpose meter that improves upon the competition and becomes more of a niche instrument that only gets used when the unique features are needed

I agree with you and assume that the time required the the meter to settle was considered to meet their minimum standards. However, that does not mean it meets your minimum standards.

Would a 7 sec autorange meet anyone's minimum standards ?

I assume it met Gossen's minimum as well as again, the one I have is on par with the UEI. I am not suggesting that I wouldn't want a meter that could auto range faster but the speed of the UEI would not prevent me from using it. For what you use it for, it seems this is not be the case. There are a lot of products out there and there is certainly nothing wrong with finding one that suits you.

As a side note, some of the meters I have looked at were painfully slow in the capacitance mode as well. It's not a feature I typically use so it's never caused me any problems.

Do we know the actual update rate on the bargraph? the manual only states “fast updating" and then there is the “5 times per second nominal”.

Could we get a figure or estimate on the bargraph update speed? (or is this info also >hidden< in some now deleted videos or comments thread)

I read the manual and you appear correct. I had made a video showing the speed of the prototype compared with my BM869s and UT181A. These are some of the fastest ones I have come across. I can tell you that the prototype was not as fast but still impressive. I could make that clip public but would rather someone run the released version instead as the results may be different.

Thanks for the info, the bargraph on BM869s updates 60 times/sec according to the manual, so hopefully the 121GW at least is considerably faster than the nominal 5 times/sec stated for its main display, which seems to beg the question (again) why is the auto-ranging then so slow?

And does REPEATING the same point 8-10 times on different threads with ZERO hands on use make you useful in the discussion or just LOUD?

Not his fault we have multiple threads talking about the same thing, and his comment is SPOT on, don't need to own one to make that observation.

But to keep harping on that same point?? It seems more about trying to whip up some sort of online frenzy about a point that will take a little time to fix in firmware, bleating incessantly about it won't make it magically fixed or even happen sooner.

And does REPEATING the same point 8-10 times on different threads with ZERO hands on use make you useful in the discussion or just LOUD?

Quote

But to keep harping on that same point?? It seems more about trying to whip up some sort of online frenzy about a point that will take a little time to fix in firmware, bleating incessantly about it won't make it magically fixed or even happen sooner.

I am looking forward to seeing reviews of the more complex features, for example reading the power of a 110/220 LED bulb, showing the BT, trying some long term data logging to the memory card (over night sort of thing). For those of you who have received their meters and have taken the time to run some of these early test, I appreciate your efforts.

I tried the SD card data logging overnight with 5V and 50V.My room temperature was moving between 24C to 19C in the morning.

I change the file from csv to zip file to attach here because of the file size.

I am looking forward to get the meter in a month or two and check it out (I will do a review). The main reasons I got the meter was the low burden voltage and the 15V diode mode. I wonder if the VA mode is useful, I will probably continue to use my meter with a real W mode.

I'm looking forward to your review. Thanks for all your other reviews on your website. It's my first stop whenever I need a new battery or charger. :-)

I'm looking forward to your review. Thanks for all your other reviews on your website. It's my first stop whenever I need a new battery or charger. :-)

I also hope to make the multimeter reviews useful for selecting a meter, but I need more for that, at the moment there is only 18 reviews.

Well we have the miliohm meter in common, the YR1030 that you can test interns,battery resistance with.’oh, but the way. Ignore my message on the other site, I found the manual and translated it.In fact if you want a copy to post on your review in PDF fr]ormst just let me know.Thanks,Scott

I am looking forward to get the meter in a month or two and check it out (I will do a review).

HKJ - something that would help me and maybe others - put a link to your great website in your profile so it shows up every time you write something. Every time you write something, I try to find it and fail. (also I want to add it to #3). If not how about give it to me one last time.

Thanks and keep up the outstanding work. For those that do not know - HKJ has the best site for battery and battery charger reviews.

put a link to your great website in your profile so it shows up every time you write something. Every time you write something, I try to find it and fail. (also I want to add it to #3).

Click the globe to the left, it leads directly to my website (I fixed that last time I got a complain about it).The website do not use a framework to give a good layout, but is old style html, this makes it very fast to navigate if you know how to use your browser.I publish many reviews, that is not the same as they are superficial, due to automation there is usual a lot of testing behind each review.

..Well the Micsig tablet scopes can play videos, but I suspect the 121GW's processor doesn't have the power to decode MP3s. WAVs, maybe..

If I remember correctly there's a 32-bit ARM inside it. Most of those can decode MP3s, even without an FPU. Talking about low-bitrate here.My opinion is that, if this thing lands in enough hands, even without source code and firmware, some people will manage to built a custom firmware for it. It has happened to every thing that was affordable and/or appealing. Either that, or something better, cheaper and more hackable comes along.

Can’t have the EEVBlog music store for this meter unit we can use the Bluetooth to either transfer the music to the meter, or play music on it and pair it with a speaker or headset. Then the Bluetooth would have a purpose. From what I’ve read it’s slow update refresh using it with the app so far, and you can’t transfer the logs from the meter to a computer (I don’t believe this one was never in scope). But if they can’t fkx the slow refresh rate on the app I’ll gladly give that up for playing music a BT headset, and put a bugger SD card in it.

If I remember correctly there's a 32-bit ARM inside it. Most of those can decode MP3s, even without an FPU. Talking about low-bitrate here.My opinion is that, if this thing lands in enough hands, even without source code and firmware, some people will manage to built a custom firmware for it. It has happened to every thing that was affordable and/or appealing. Either that, or something better, cheaper and more hackable comes along.

Just did a few minutes of research on this, it's probably not possible to do significant MP3 decoding unless you have an M4F and above. Only those have the single-cycle MAC instruction. It's mostly fixed-point arithmetic, but it needs to happen pretty fast. Was just a theoretical question anyway, I doubt anyone will try to implement this.

If folks want a MP3 player plus a multimeter, why not buy a mooshimeter instead? :-DD

I think Scott said he played with one.

I have not seen anyone make a video of the BT yet. I thought they were only planning to use it for logging and not to do updates or even pull the contents from the card? If it is only used for logging, the speed may not be a problem.

The Gossen meter sounds as fast in autorange. It's BT could also be used to log but the meter was such power hog, it won't run for very long between battery changes. They do have that external power port so you can plug it into your portable Nuke for extended logging. :-DD Then there's my cheap $120 CEM with it's 900MHz radio running off a single 9V for days with logging. :-DD It will be interesting to see how the UEI meter stacks up with speed, battery life and distance.

Just finished watching it. He compares it with a BM867s and shows some speed comparisons. He also shows the power measurement. 9.846W vs 9.42W seems like a lot of error doesn't it?

It's been a while but it seems like they were not accounting for the losses in the meter. I made a few videos showing the basic circuit and such to try and isolate it further after I was told I had it connected wrong. I would be interested in seeing someone with the production meter dive into the power measurement in more detail. A video specifically for that one feature, showing all your connections and such.

It's a shame they capped it at 50V. I was all along thinking AC line power measurements.

Just a quick comment about the power measurement. I did this mainly to show it working and how the update speed is.I didn't use the sense pins on the electronic load. This means, the cable and connector loss from the multimeter to the load are included in the Multimeter measurement, but not in the DC-load display.Because of that, it is absoluteliy expected, that the load shows a lower value.I'll add a comment to the video to make that clear.

If folks want a MP3 player plus a multimeter, why not buy a mooshimeter instead? :-DD

I think Scott said he played with one.

Yes, I did buy one, ran it in some testing and well. I only review and do videos on products I keep, like and woild recomend to others. It went back.Biggest issue, it depends on BT fully, no local buttons or display. And when the app is so unstable you can’t keep a connection then it makes it worthless. The update rate seemed impressive over BT to the device paired, they have that down. Graphing, VA, resolution, and very sensative considering it has no shielding. When BT works, or I should say when the app works, it worked good. It was monitoring in the besament, and I was able to walk up 2 stories to the main lab and keep connection, so range wasn’t the issue. Same issue as the 121GW, if you want that SD card put you have to take it apart. But you could transfer the logs to the opine over BT also. And then the app, crash, crash, crash, oh come on. The answer was we are working on an update. Just constant app updates, fix these bugs, introduce new bugs. If you have to depend on the app and only the app that can’t stay connected then it’s not usfull to me. You could connect, start logging and disconnect. But you might not be able to connect again to see how things are going, or it could take a few tries.

I hate to say it, but software is everything these days. People will buy something because it has an app and can share on Facebook. If you advertise an app or software with s product and it’s really basic and useless, or full of features but crashes all the time then that’s all that will get reviewed and what people will remember is that app. So if you make an app for your device, support, make sure it works before releasing the update, and stay on top of it. It could be the downfall of a good product that may be perfectl without an app. But they won’t review or remember that, they will on,y complain how the app is not stable and won’t work. But you need the app for mosshiemeter, you can’t run it without the app, so bad combination and it was returned three days after buying it.

I did some further testing.First, I connected the sense terminals of the dc-load.I wired everything up according to the attached schematic.This improved the reading of the 121GW a bit, but not to the degree I expected.To make sure, the sense readings are really used I also connected my keithley in parallel to the sense wires. They seem to work fine.I noticed, that the voltage readings of the 121GW are sometimes, but not always, a bit high.The offset seems to be depending on the input voltage, not the current. So I can rule out contact resistance as source of the offset.I attached a table with the measurements.Also, I uploaded the video of the test process, in case someone is interested in it. (There is no talking in this video, only me testing it with 5 to 30V and 0.5 to 5 A)https://youtu.be/bT9K52rtEOk

In the voltage range, it tracks nicely with the keitley.So I don't know what could cause this, maybe the voltage is measured with less precision during the power measurement?

I known I was joking about the meter playing music, but then I did just realize that the RC transmitter I own by FrSky, the X9D PLUS uses the a ST chip a,so, the SMT32 I think. It’s completely open source, fully programmable, has a few forks of other versions of firmware, plays music, has module support so for $20 you can add a RF module with 4 chips to fly just about anything with support in the OS of the controller for all 40+ different protocols to use this module. A radio for all, with music, features, logging, SD card for logging and backup of confirms and customizations, and this uses the ST chip.

My point is if the firmware is done correct this chip can be very powerful. But then again the firmware is almost fully open source and this has been with a lot of the open source community adding things and making this radio better. So if the firmware was released, or at least the open source parts of it I could see this meter taking off.

FYI about certifications, the radio like the meter also needs to meet certain certifications with the FCC and others. Technically it requires a HAM radio license if you change the firmware, but most people don’t know this or understand this. They just know it can be tweaked and usfull, works good, and one reading for 12 planes, and 6 quads. This makes sense instead of carrying all those other radios.

So even with an open source operating system, as long as certain parts are locked down like radio transmission strength to meet FCC requirement it can flourish with future support and updates. Remember the one Linksys router people started flashing, it did so well they made one and allowed it to be flashed and sold it as that. Other router like Asus fully support third part open source firmware now.

I guess as long as the risks are clear and known, I don’t see why some parts of the firmware can’t be released and let the community make it a great meter.

I'm not sure what the chip in the 121GW is, but I doubt it is that fast.

Yes, I’m aware their are multiple variations of the chip, and I wasn’t about to list them all.Flight controllers use a different one, 3d printerS use a different one.I was just making a point, and as you said we don’t know what one it has yet. It one thing I know for sure, the can always be swapped out for another faster one, or one with more storage for more code. I’ve done it on 3D printers and flight controllers. But we would still need a firmware to flash to it, and probably make sure the boot loader is the same or copy the boot loader for the 121GW chip if it’s compatible with the new chip being installed for the instructions built in. Just another point, before software hacking sometimes it’s easier to hack the hardware first if you can clone the chip and bypass the lock instructions.

Guys, what does AC+DC do? I was hoping it would show separately DC and AC. DC on the main screen, and AC in the top right corner. That would be super useful for me to detect when, say, my DIY circuit wildly oscillates (would save a lot of time in certain situations when I didn't realize the problem and didn't use an oscilloscope).

AC+DC is a single measurement, that takes into account both the AC portion of the signal as well as the DC portion. This is also true on the Brymen meters (got to imagine true on pretty much any meter). However the Brymens that support dual display have a setting that includes AC+DC. When in this range, you can cycle through having (for the BM869 at least, can't speak for other Brymen's, though pretty sure similar for ones that support dual display)1) DC on the main display, and nothing on secondary2) DC on main display, AC on secondary display 3) AC+DC on the main display, AC on the secondary display

when making measurements and responds accurately to the total effective RMS value regardless of the waveform. Distorted waveforms with the presence of DC components and harmonics may cause:• Transformers, generators, and motors to overheat• Circuit breakers to trip prematurely• Fuses to blow• Neutrals to overheat due to the triplen harmonics present on the neutral • Bus bars and electrical panels to vibrate

Circuit breakers to trip prematurelyI had an older GFIC that started tripping after converting all the lights the house to CFL bulbs (before LEDs were affordable) and it would have been good to own the Fluke 289 that I have now to have seen this AC and DC measurements separately. As far I could tell before I got serious I tot he hobby, it had something to do with the harmonics of the CFL bulbs I installed causing the old GFIC breaker to trip. I just replaced the GFIC with a new one and all was ok again. Probably cheap CFL bulbs at the time, power factor was probably horrible, and old overly sensitive GFIC combination.

Bus bars and electrical panels to vibrateNever seen this, some would think this is haunted stuff going on. :scared:

So the 121GW doesn’t have the ability to display these voltages separately despite the dual channels and dual display?Still waiting on some sort of shipping notification or update on the US shipped meters, mine is still MIA.Scott

And does REPEATING the same point 8-10 times on different threads with ZERO hands on use make you useful in the discussion or just LOUD?

Not his fault we have multiple threads talking about the same thing, and his comment is SPOT on, don't need to own one to make that observation.

But to keep harping on that same point?? It seems more about trying to whip up some sort of online frenzy about a point that will take a little time to fix in firmware, bleating incessantly about it won't make it magically fixed or even happen sooner.

In my opinion Mike just asked a valid question.It seems to me that YOU are the one that's bleating.

In my opinion Mike just asked a valid question.It seems to me that YOU are the one that's bleating.

3db

Mike and others with NO first hand use have prattled on and attacked the product and Dave's thoughts and actions and repeated those sentiments and statements in multiple posts. Some of these comments made seem to be more about whipping up a storm than looking for a solution.

While certainly not perfect Dave deserves the decency of some time with his family for a start then some time to go back to the manufacturer to sort out some of the issues then let us know what they have found and a path forward to improve the meter.

Mike and others with NO first hand use have prattled on and attacked the product and Dave's thoughts and actions and repeated those sentiments and statements in multiple posts. Some of these comments made seem to be more about whipping up a storm than looking for a solution.

While certainly not perfect Dave deserves the decency of some time with his family for a start then some time to go back to the manufacturer to sort out some of the issues then let us know what they have found and a path forward to improve the meter.

Sorry to intervene, but you are either unique among people or just biased in this case. People are not thinking of the Amazon delivery men/women's families when Christmas approaches nor will they investigate why it takes time for a reseller to solve their issues - thinking they must be on vacation. Maybe not the case here, but not sure where the line is drawn between customers and enthusiasts.

I felt bad about dragging the hotel manager out from a family outing on the 24th of December - but not my fault if there is only one hotel manager who also managed to lock me out of my room. Again, not the case here, but I think there should be a distinction between expectations and sentiments.

While I'm sure it will be [somehow] settled, it seems like a s*storm from both sides, without even a single quote from Dave. Not sure where all this rage is coming from or going to...I guess polarized opinions means a successful product or campaign, regardless of the results.

Mike and others with NO first hand use have prattled on and attacked the product and Dave's thoughts and actions and repeated those sentiments and statements in multiple posts. Some of these comments made seem to be more about whipping up a storm than looking for a solution.

While certainly not perfect Dave deserves the decency of some time with his family for a start then some time to go back to the manufacturer to sort out some of the issues then let us know what they have found and a path forward to improve the meter.

Sorry to intervene, but you are either unique among people or just biased in this case. People are not thinking of the Amazon delivery men/women's families when Christmas approaches nor will they investigate why it takes time for a reseller to solve their issues - thinking they must be on vacation. Maybe not the case here, but not sure where the line is drawn between customers and enthusiasts.

I felt bad about dragging the hotel manager out from a family outing on the 24th of December - but not my fault if there is only one hotel manager who also managed to lock me out of my room. Again, not the case here, but I think there should be a distinction between expectations and sentiments.

While I'm sure it will be [somehow] settled, it seems like a s*storm from both sides, without even a single quote from Dave. Not sure where all this rage is coming from or going to...I guess polarized opinions means a successful product or campaign, regardless of the results.

As I mentioned in another thread, this is most probably coming from the unrealistic and unfulfilled expectation (=frustration) of a "close to perfection" product that had an unparalleled transparent development process. It is a new product and issues like these are bound to happen.

Another factor that contributes to this reaction is the vocal and vitriolic response that Dave would have displayed if the product was from a third party. The 121GW has become the target of the reviewers and customers, and I guess it becomes a fair game to criticize it in the same tone.

As I mentioned in another thread, this is most probably coming from the unrealistic and unfulfilled expectation (=frustration) of a "close to perfection" product that had an unparalleled transparent development process. It is a new product and issues like these are bound to happen.

Yes of course. But I saw enough of Daves reviews to be able to imagine what he would have said about the meter.

What I am wondering about, is that the felt majority of posts is about the ohm autoranging speed and other cosmetic deficiencies. Wtf? This is the smallest of the problems the meter has and I don't get why everybody seems so excited about this problem.

I'm more concerned with the real problems of the firmware, like sending broken records via bluetooth, missing to write loglines onto the sd-card, file corruption on the sd-card, sending plain wrong data via bluetooth and using a braindead protocol to send data via bluetooth. One part of the data is decimal coded hex digits, the other part is hex coded hex digits and half of the records are garbled, wasting probably two thirds of the small available bandwidth of bluetooth LE. Wtf?

If you find issues like that, you start wondering, what else the firmware the guys will probably have messed up.

I'm not concerned that not everything on the first batch works as expected. I'm more concerned that someone writes the firmware for the meter who makes design errors like this. Writing data to an file system and transmitting data via a serial port to a bt-dongle is no rocket science. The bluetooth transmission is CRC protected so the meter clearly writes wrong data to the module. I'm too lazy to to solder a logic analyzer to the module connection to verify this. This is Dave's or whoever's homework.

What am I to expect from someone with this track record in the future?

Dave said: "It's ready when it's ready."

I guess he didn't look to closely. He knew about the wrong data via bluetooth. The app tries to filter it out, but fails in quite some cases.

If you find issues like that, you start wondering, what else the firmware the guys will probably have messed up.

Exactly.

Unfortunately this is probably something Dave has had little control over, and is likely at least pissed off about it as anyone else, but for commercial reasons can't voice it as he would have done if reviewing someone else's product. UEI have spent a lot on development and are relying on Dave to get enough sales to recoup their investment.The number and nature of the issues reported so far do suggest something more fundamental than a few minor bugs, like generally poor design & structure, as we've seen in countless Chinese products. Maybe another reason the manufacturer doesn't want to open source it. One downside of easily updateable firmware is that it can lead to a "we can fix it later" attitude.As long as there aren't any underlying hardware issues, hopefully things will get fixed in due course.

Mike and others with NO first hand use have prattled on and attacked the product and Dave's thoughts and actions and repeated those sentiments and statements in multiple posts. Some of these comments made seem to be more about whipping up a storm than looking for a solution.

While certainly not perfect Dave deserves the decency of some time with his family for a start then some time to go back to the manufacturer to sort out some of the issues then let us know what they have found and a path forward to improve the meter.

Sorry to intervene, but you are either unique among people or just biased in this case. People are not thinking of the Amazon delivery men/women's families when Christmas approaches nor will they investigate why it takes time for a reseller to solve their issues - thinking they must be on vacation. Maybe not the case here, but not sure where the line is drawn between customers and enthusiasts.

I felt bad about dragging the hotel manager out from a family outing on the 24th of December - but not my fault if there is only one hotel manager who also managed to lock me out of my room. Again, not the case here, but I think there should be a distinction between expectations and sentiments.

While I'm sure it will be [somehow] settled, it seems like a s*storm from both sides, without even a single quote from Dave. Not sure where all this rage is coming from or going to...I guess polarized opinions means a successful product or campaign, regardless of the results.

You need to remember this is a Kickstarter. It is very different to buying a finished product from Amazon, or paying a hotel for accommodation.

You need to remember this is a Kickstarter. It is very different to buying a finished product from Amazon, or paying a hotel for accommodation.

It's not reasonable to compare with typical Kickstarters - it's a product designed and manufactured by an experienced test equipment company, with significant input from someone with considerable expertise in the field. The KS wasn't started until it was pretty much ready to go.

As I mentioned in another thread, this is most probably coming from the unrealistic and unfulfilled expectation (=frustration) of a "close to perfection" product that had an unparalleled transparent development process. It is a new product and issues like these are bound to happen.

Yes of course. But I saw enough of Daves reviews to be able to imagine what he would have said about the meter.

What I am wondering about, is that the felt majority of posts is about the ohm autoranging speed and other cosmetic deficiencies. Wtf? This is the smallest of the problems the meter has and I don't get why everybody seems so excited about this problem.

Only a fraction of people will use datalogging, while continuity is the third pillar of a DMM. That alone will draw criticism in much larger numbers, and the feedback here reflects that.

I completely agree with yours and Mike's statements regarding the firmware, but this is nothing new of products made in China. IMO, if UEI is responsive to correct the BT and datalog bugs, to enhance the autorange performance and to rethink the beeper behaviour, this will be a much welcome recovery that will certainly differentiate them from other competitors at the same league. This does not require open source firmware, which is something that will never materialize as per Dave's words.

As long as there aren't any underlying hardware issues, hopefully things will get fixed in due course.

Yeah, but we'll probably never find out, because the people with large amounts of test equipment just make videos about autoranging speed.

I can't test this, I only have an Fluke 73III (probably one of the worst they ever made, someone gave it to me, but there is a laser trimmed resistor in there), an UNI-T 71D and a Tektronix 7834 scope.

You need to remember this is a Kickstarter. It is very different to buying a finished product from Amazon, or paying a hotel for accommodation.

It's not reasonable to compare with typical Kickstarters - it's a product designed and manufactured by an experienced test equipment company, with significant input from someone with considerable expertise in the field. The KS wasn't started until it was pretty much ready to go.

Agreed, this is definitely not a "typical" Kickstarter project. But that doesn't take away from the fact that it is still a Kickstarter project, and a brand new product.It is easy to sit back and say that the slow auto ranging should have been an obvious issue, but any one managing a business knows that things slip through the cracks.It isn't that surprising to find a few issues, and I'm sure Dave already has UEI looking into the reports. Better for them to now analyse these carefully than to rush out a fix.

Loosy goosy range switch:https://youtu.be/7E2Pjcogrho?t=5m28sAnd that was April 2017, kinda disappointing it didn't 'get worked on'. :-\

It did.That video is from April 2016, not 2017, see the date code on the back, that video wasn't released until much later. It was the first prototype that used a PIC24 processor. It was not the final range switch.We have had no problems with the range switch since then. I'm surprised to hear about any issues to do with the range switch.

What I am wondering about, is that the felt majority of posts is about the ohm autoranging speed and other cosmetic deficiencies.

Autoranging speed is not a cosmetic problem (for those who actually use the meter). Same for beeper, etc, these are significant usability flaws. At least for me. I think most people underrate comfort and productivity of tools. I'm glad you consider this a "minor annoyance". But there are other opinions on this.

What I am wondering about, is that the felt majority of posts is about the ohm autoranging speed and other cosmetic deficiencies.

Autoranging speed is not a cosmetic problem (for those who actually use the meter). Same for beeper, etc, these are significant usability flaws. At least for me. I think most people underrate comfort and productivity of tools. I'm glad you consider this a "minor annoyance". But there are other opinions on this.

Alright, we get it. :horse:

No need to post on this subject any more until Dave officially says "fixed/not fixable". :horse: :horse:

It did.That video is from April 2016, not 2017, see the date code on the back, that video wasn't released until much later. It was the first prototype that used a PIC24 processor. It was not the final range switch.We have had no problems with the range switch since then. I'm surprised to hear about any issues to do with the range switch.

From the video it is hard to compare. But here is a video of my range switch dancing:

What I am wondering about, is that the felt majority of posts is about the ohm autoranging speed and other cosmetic deficiencies.

Autoranging speed is not a cosmetic problem (for those who actually use the meter). Same for beeper, etc, these are significant usability flaws. At least for me. I think most people underrate comfort and productivity of tools. I'm glad you consider this a "minor annoyance". But there are other opinions on this.

Alright, we get it. :horse:No need to post on this subject any more until Dave officially says "fixed/not fixable". :horse: :horse:

And when I know, everyone will know.It almost certainly can be improved.

Loosy goosy range switch:https://youtu.be/7E2Pjcogrho?t=5m28sAnd that was April 2017, kinda disappointing it didn't 'get worked on'. :-\

It did.That video is from April 2016, not 2017, see the date code on the back, that video wasn't released until much later. It was the first prototype that used a PIC24 processor. It was not the final range switch.We have had no problems with the range switch since then. I'm surprised to hear about any issues to do with the range switch.

At the risk of being censored, we did discuss problems with the switch. I wonder with it now being intermittent if they did not reduce the spring pressure.

It did.That video is from April 2016, not 2017, see the date code on the back, that video wasn't released until much later. It was the first prototype that used a PIC24 processor. It was not the final range switch.We have had no problems with the range switch since then. I'm surprised to hear about any issues to do with the range switch.

From the video it is hard to compare. But here is a video of my range switch dancing:

Confirmed on the two remaining units we have here. This is not right, pre-production units have never done this.This is the last problem we would have expected.It has been reported as the highest priority, but it's now the weekend so I don't expect an immediate response.In any case it will take them some time to investigate I'm sure.

At the risk of being censored, we did discuss problems with the switch. I wonder with it now being intermittent if they did not reduce the spring pressure.

Joe, I am not censoring anyone. I didn't want people constantly discussing stuff in the thread that is only for reporting and confirming issues.Having an "issues" thread that's a 30 page long discussion kinda make it hard to find the issues for all involved...I hope you can understand that.

And yes we improved the switch wear issue after you reported it, but the pre-production units that came after that were fine, and we have never had this "wobble" or intermittent contact issue. Not even the first "wobbly" prototype back in April 2016 had intermittent contacts. This seems to be a new issue.

At the risk of being censored, we did discuss problems with the switch. I wonder with it now being intermittent if they did not reduce the spring pressure.

Joe, I am not censoring anyone. I didn't want people constantly discussing stuff in the thread that is only for reporting and confirming issues.Having an "issues" thread that's a 30 page long discussion kinda make it hard to find the issues for all involved...I hope you can understand that.

And yes we improved the switch wear issue after you reported it, but the pre-production units that came after that were fine, and we have never had this "wobble" or intermittent contact issue. Not even the first "wobbly" prototype back in April 2016 had intermittent contacts. This seems to be a new issue.

I assume you pulled my post when you bold texted me. Maybe you have a different definition of censorship. Really no matter. I certainly understand that it is your site and you are free to do as you wish with it.

On the switch, I just wanted to be clear that your comment

Quote

"We have had no problems with the range switch since then.

was not entirely true. I will say that I never saw the wobble on the prototype. If people watch the video where I had repaired it, I ran it outside the case. The rotating spring contact holder what held in place by its locking barbs where it fits through the board. Even then I don't think it was intermittent. This is why I wonder if they had loosened the tension maybe to help reduce the wear. If so, maybe they went too far with it. Hard to say but it would be easy enough to compare them at some point. With you unboxing a fair number of them to test, I would think if there was a major problem you would have come across it.

Also, just an FYI, with as many meters as I have looked at, I have ran into problem with switches not working right from the factory. One was a CEM. I showed some pictures of it where one of the wiper contacts was lower than all the rest. The plastic that it fits over was a bit wider for some reason spreading out the spring causing it to ride a little low. A razor blade solved that one. People seem to expect a lower level of quality from CEM. They are a bit of a hit an miss company from what I see and it explains why they get a bad reputation.

I assume you pulled my post when you bold texted me. Maybe you have a different definition of censorship. Really no matter. I certainly understand that it is your site and you are free to do as you wish with it.

I deleted a few non-relevant posts in the other thread trying to tidy it up, they contained nothing of importance.I am NOT censoring anyone, say whatever you want in this thread or the main discussion thread, but PLEASE don't discuss things in the Issues thread, is that too much to ask? I am trying to keep the Issues thread clean so that it contains a reasonably concise list of the issues and confirmations. UEi are reading this thread, I do not want them (and us) to have to look through a hundred page thread to reference the issues.

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On the switch, I just wanted to be clear that your comment

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"We have had no problems with the range switch since then.

was not entirely true. I will say that I never saw the wobble on the prototype. If people watch the video where I had repaired it, I ran it outside the case. The rotating spring contact holder what held in place by its locking barbs where it fits through the board. Even then I don't think it was intermittent. This is why I wonder if they had loosened the tension maybe to help reduce the wear. If so, maybe they went too far with it. Hard to say but it would be easy enough to compare them at some point. With you unboxing a fair number of them to test, I would think if there was a major problem you would have come across it.

I'll repeat again, we had several more revisions after your unit, and none of them had any issues with the switch. This seems to be an entirely new issue in the production units.

Perhaps somebody should add a running list or index of confirmed concerns to the other 121GW thread so none get overlooked, they could also be indexed in order of priority in an effort to assist the UEI technicians.

Dave has confirmed the switch wobble is causing an issue, confirmed on the "Issues" thread. I hope Dave will update us all on the switch and firmware solutions as soon as he has an idea, (discussed with UEi) the course of action to take.

Of course I will. When I know you'll know.UEi don't speculate, so I have nothing to even speculatively tell you right now.

I deleted a few non-relevant posts in the other thread trying to tidy it up, they contained nothing of importance.I am NOT censoring anyone, say whatever you want in this thread or the main discussion thread, but PLEASE don't discuss things in the Issues thread, is that too much to ask? I am trying to keep the Issues thread clean so that it contains a reasonably concise list of the issues and confirmations. UEi are reading this thread, I do not want them (and us) to have to look through a hundred page thread to reference the issues.

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On the switch, I just wanted to be clear that your comment

Quote

"We have had no problems with the range switch since then.

was not entirely true. I will say that I never saw the wobble on the prototype. If people watch the video where I had repaired it, I ran it outside the case. The rotating spring contact holder what held in place by its locking barbs where it fits through the board. Even then I don't think it was intermittent. This is why I wonder if they had loosened the tension maybe to help reduce the wear. If so, maybe they went too far with it. Hard to say but it would be easy enough to compare them at some point. With you unboxing a fair number of them to test, I would think if there was a major problem you would have come across it.

I'll repeat again, we had several more revisions after your unit, and none of them had any issues with the switch. This seems to be an entirely new issue in the production units.

"to delete (a word or passage of text) in one's capacity as a censor."

I don't have anything further to add to the issues thread beyond what I have already posted.

I have no problem with you making claims about revisions after the one I had looked at however,

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It was the first prototype that used a PIC24 processor. It was not the final range switch. We have had no problems with the range switch since then. I'm surprised to hear about any issues to do with the range switch.

is not true. The meter I have is certainly post PIC24 and there are problems with the switch design. That's all I am saying. I would have no way to know what changes they made after this revision or what testing they performed to validate it. While I would like to assume they have done their due diligence, it does seem that there are still problems with it.

"to delete (a word or passage of text) in one's capacity as a censor."

Please get over it.

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It was the first prototype that used a PIC24 processor. It was not the final range switch. We have had no problems with the range switch since then. I'm surprised to hear about any issues to do with the range switch.

is not true. The meter I have is certainly post PIC24 and there are problems with the switch design. That's all I am saying. I would have no way to know what changes they made after this revision or what testing they performed to validate it. While I would like to assume they have done their due diligence, it does seem that there are still problems with it.

How can you state this is not true? you have no knowledge of this.You have not seen the several revisions of meter after your unit.I'm telling you that there was nothing wrong with these meters in regards to wobble intermittent contact, and you even admitted yourself that your unit had no such issues. The issue you had with the switch had nothing to do with the "wobble" or intermittent contact.I'll state again for the last time, this is a new issue that has only appeared on the production units.

"to delete (a word or passage of text) in one's capacity as a censor."

Please get over it.

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It was the first prototype that used a PIC24 processor. It was not the final range switch. We have had no problems with the range switch since then. I'm surprised to hear about any issues to do with the range switch.

is not true. The meter I have is certainly post PIC24 and there are problems with the switch design. That's all I am saying. I would have no way to know what changes they made after this revision or what testing they performed to validate it. While I would like to assume they have done their due diligence, it does seem that there are still problems with it.

How can you state this is not true? you have no knowledge of this.You have not seen the several revisions of meter after your unit.I'm telling you that there was nothing wrong with these meters in regards to wobble intermittent contact, and you even admitted yourself that your unit had no such issues. The issue you had with the switch had nothing to do with the "wobble" or intermittent contact.I'll state again for the last time, this is a new issue that has only appeared on the production units.

No problems means no problems. I can believe there were no wobble or intermittent contact problems but there were certainly other problems relating to the switch after the PIC24.

It doesn't matter to me about what the details were of the past prototypes!

I'm concerned about the current production models and what I'm going to receive come March 2018. Its not so much about the existence of the problems encountered with the production model, but about how it will be fixed.

There are two items of concern and they are the current meters now delivered may have a hardware issue and how will this be addressed?

The Kickstarter way of buying a new meter is certainly a new experience for me, as it is without certainty or guarantee. I would not have engaged in the campaign if not for finding Dave and his blog to be 100% genuine. I'm certain the existing owners will be looked after and the next batch of meters will be fixed before being shipped.

Dave we need you to communicate a reassurance that hardware and firmware will be fixed. We are all reasonable people and understand this may take some time. Give us one of your EEVBlogs on how the Kickstarter project meters have some issues and whats needed to fix them. Give us some of your trademark sarcasm and humour and include us, (the backers) in how you progress from here.

Dave we need you to communicate a reassurance that hardware and firmware will be fixed.

Hardware and firmware will be fixed, that is my intention. But obviously this it outside of my personal physical control though, I am reliant upon the manufacturer to investigate and fix the issues.

Sometimes when you found, or been made aware of, issues in DMMs you have done your own investigation video i.e. EEVblog #987 U1282A and EMC. From what I can tell that video is informative and factual and most likely helped the manufacture Keysight in their investigation.

And the 121GW is after all a production model now so it deserves to be scrutinized, especially with problems like the wobbly selector switch that was already thought (supposed) to have been fixed. Seems appropriate to make a video about it - taking that switch assembly apart.

And the 121GW is after all a production model now so it deserves to be scrutinized, especially with problems like the wobbly selector switch that was already thought (supposed) to have been fixed. Seems appropriate to make a video about it - taking that switch assembly apart.

Agree. While finding unbiased information may be hard to come by, at least we are starting to see some of the problems.