I have some concerns that our two forum set up may not be healthy for us. Those that come here in the begining of our recovery need all the wisdom and knowledge we can get to make the very hard step of ending the silence to become survivors.When I found this web site back in Jan 02 I was in great need of help and the words here gave me hope. I came to this website every work day from the computer at work to read those words of hope. I read every post for 4 months from the background before I became a member.I broke the silence and began my healing in May.Wisdom and knowledge on this subject of SA is very hard to find. I feel that all the W&K could be on the Members Forum and those of us who need it so much will be LOCKED-OUT. Muldoon

_________________________
Teach the Children to Never Hide in the Silence

WillPYou and I frist came here about the same time.Up to Sunday Nov 4 we where all one togeather as brothers in Healing . Now we are divded in two Members and Guest. Read Richards post of Nov 4th called Members & Guests. Don't leave us stand your grounds and help change this for the better. Muldoon

_________________________
Teach the Children to Never Hide in the Silence

hi Guys, I am a little befuddled. I went to the public forum and I see everything there that is in the members forum--at least I think that is it. I will double check, but it looks like both forums have the same material--senior moments are possible here.

Bob

_________________________
If we do not live what we believe, then we will begin to believe what we live.

Wuamei
Member
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Posts: 2700
Loc: The left turn I should have ta...

With all due respect, and kinda like what Bob says, it seems to me that the same kind of conversations, wisdom, support, sharing, insights, etc are taking place in the public forums now as before the member forums were started.

It would be interesting to know an average number of posts on the public forums now as compared to before the member forums.

I'm here virtually every day, 2-3 times a day, and my gut feeling is that whatever decline in posting & changes in post there are started with the uproar Lyin Cub & a couple others had going all at once, which started well before the member forums did.

That problem has been cleaned up well, and as others have said its time to not let ourselves feel bullied by some cyberterrorist who cannot hurt us now, time to move on with the business of supporting one another and working our own recoveries.

In fact, I wonder if that whole mess, on top of other things, isn't why we now have member & public forums.

And actually I don't think it's such a bad idea. The public forums, as recently shown, are still very safe forums. They are especially good for those who are for whatever reasons not sure of the idea of "joining up" too quickly, or who still have anonymity as a/the major concern, or really can't pay the membership fee, which BTW is based on your income a kind of sliding fee scale.

I'm not poor or homeless or anything--tho I've been both--but I like most of us have a lot of bills & a little money. I'm currently on medical disability leave thru my work, tho I do still work a (very) little. To me, the membership is already valuable way beyond what I paid for it, just a week or so ago.

The member forums, for me, offer even more security than the public forums, simply becuz as soon as you pay the MS administration (at least some of them) know exactly who you are. For someone like me who has just become ready for that, to start breaking out of anonymity, it is a great step toward greater disclosure like going public, confronting a perp, etc.

The member forums for me are very liberating. In fact, I've made it a place "where everybody knows my name." As have many but not all the other men in those forums. Its still a choice.

Of the men I've seen on the forum, most still seem to be posting mostly on the public forum, or at least as much there as they were before.

I'm quite sure I've not used the public forums any less this past week or so than I did before. I'm simply using the MS site more, becuz I now post almost as much on the membership forums as on the public ones.

I talk about mostly the same topics of discussion that are in the public forums on the member forums. But I'm able to go deeper or more intimately into things becuz I'm not concerned about anonymity so much there. This too is very liberating--now that I'm ready for it & want it. That took a while.

And becuz of the additional sharing I can do on the member forums, I gain more insight & inspiration I can share in old discussions or new topics on the public forum, without of course breaking confidentialities or anonymity.

I've been a "guest" and a "member" and even moderated and otherwise been active working in other forums (that charged a lot more than this one!). I had no problem with it. A lot of recovery forums do this & work it well it seems to me.

Of course all this is just my opinion & experience. So as they say take what you want & leave the rest.

I see no split or different groups of people here. I see only my fellow male survivor brothers.

Actually only a couple of people will know your name if you join MS, and that is so they can mail your stuff to you. I suppose you could give a false name siince the mail comes to your house.When I was being silly I would order things using the name Benton Berwin--got the idea from a sign in Michigan Benton Beer and Wine. When the mail cameI just laughed.

There is a membership directory, but I bet you could have your name left off it if you wanted.

I would sure hate for someone to not join MS and noy get all the stuff we get, simply because they are not willing to have anyone know their name and address. I am sure you could work around that.

Peace!

Bob

_________________________
If we do not live what we believe, then we will begin to believe what we live.

Wuamei
Member
Registered: 08/19/02
Posts: 2700
Loc: The left turn I should have ta...

Bob:

I guess I was thinking more of the fact that when you pay for membership by credit card (I guess you could pay other ways?) they have the info to track you. But I'm sure there's ways to get around even that.

I didn't want to imply everyone will know who you are in the member forums. That is still a choice. I wasn't sure how many people would know. Thanks for clarifying, Bob.

Disclaimer: I am not yet a member, but not for lack of trying. Software problems prevented my joining on-line. My snail mail attempt was thwarted by procrastination and dis-organization. A second try on-line, and subsequent communication with the webmaster have shown me that the problem is my ancient version of Internet Explorer. I will join this weekend using my brother's or nephew's system.

I will join because I have learned that the truth will not hurt me. It doesn't embarrass me anymore and it sure as hell can't be held or used against me.

I am joining a group of people (men and women) who know that only by standing together, publicly and politically, can we create the awareness and services needed.

The awareness will help protect the young. Services will be more readily available for them if, or when something happens to them.

Those of us in our 40's or older know how much time and life can pass before we finally admit what keeping our secrets can do to a man.

Malesurvivor (NOMSV) can read my name out loud in the Congress of the United States, if it will help one man heal or protect one child.

But I digress.

I am conflicted over the new forums.

On one hand, this creates a barrier. It brings up feelings of "us and them". Or, "if I can't join now, I'm missing something".

On the other hand, becoming a member can be looked at as an important goal to reach. To feel strong and confident enough to be counted and to be known.

AND: You get to kick in some bucks, to KEEP THIS WEB SITE OPERATING.

So I won't be posting in the other forums when I can. I may read them, but if I see a topic in there I want to respond to, I'll do that here or send a private message as I do now.

?

Donald

_________________________
If you understand everything, some things are just as they are. If you understand nothing, things are still just as they are.

To be perfectly honest, I do not like the new system one bit. If I had the money I would give it to nomsv in a new york minute mainly because it is such a vital resource, especially for those who are isolated. I don't need the carrot of membership dangled in front of me with the promise of gaining access to the inner sanctum. The way it is now has sort of a country club feel, with the "haves" and the "have nots", and it does not feel good. Situations like this are breeding grounds for resentment, and bring up old feelings of not belonging. Being on the outside looking in. Especially since those of us on the outside have lost access to boards like the one for events and groups, "ask the board", and news updates. If its money you are after, there are much more effective ways to raise it. Many people with histories of sexual abuse suffer the results through loss of employment, disabilities, financial problems, and of course have major issues around trust which make joining a formidable obstacle. In addition, those who have joined and stay in their member forum are being given a false sense of security. Like deceitful and manipulative people like perpetrators don't have credit cards? I'm sure lioncub never thought he would be caught and probably would have enjoyed toying with those in the member forum with them never the wiser. There are plenty of paid websites where people encounter one another under dubious identities. If you think you are safe in there, you are fooling yourselves. It just doesn't feel right this way. Please change it back.

As you probably know, we wrestled with this problem for a long time before making a decision.

We had to balance the needs of survivors who are not ready to join the organization with the needs of the organization itself, which must grow and have greater numbers of members if it is to be a force to be reckoned with in the world and if it is to receive grants. The web site itself is expensive to run, and it is not our only activity. Finally, and most importantly, some members of the Forum have felt they would like to have a place to talk to one another with more confidentiality and privacy. Recently, this became more evident when we found that LionCub had been misrepresenting himself in a way that was quite predatory. I think this would not have happened in the Members Forum.

Not that it would be impossible for someone to misrepresent himself when joining, but it is far less likely. We do get credit card information, and that can be traced, even if the card belongs to someone besides the poster -- I doubt many people would be happy to get pressed by the credit card company about a purchase of a membership that led to predatory acts, so I think people would think twice or more before using someone else's card to register. In addition, we ask for an address, phone number, email address, etc. A membership pack is sent (discreetly) to new members, and if it were a false address it would be returned, which would alert us to a possible problem. True, the address might (legitimately) be a post box, and therefore difficult to trace, but I have no doubt that this whole procedure would cut way down on the likelihood of someone taking advantage of the system to be a predator.

We want to encourage membership, which can be free to anyone who cannot afford it. If you do not want your contact information published in our membership directory, just say so when you join.

We recognize that men who are first coming to our site are not likely to want to join the organization right away, and we respect their needs to take as much time as necessary to feel safe to do so. We want to offer them something even if they never join. That is why we are continuing the Public Forums as they have always been. And anyone can ask a question of the Board of DIrectors in the Public Forum. True, there are some forums that are not open to the Public Forum that formerly were. These are now membership benefits.

I hope this clarifies our thinking. This decision came from survivors in the organization as much as from non-survivors. I recognize that some of you are not happy with it, but I hope you will continue to use the Public Forum and also consider joining us. MS/NOMSV needs members, and membership is free if you cannot afford it.

There is no doubt that people are much more impressed with an organization that represents 900 male survivors than 100.

I like the idea that membership can be free. We can look to other ways to raise money.

Foundations want to know how many people you serve so numbers are important there.

There is a directory of foundations that support Roman Catholic causes, either solely, or among others. I would be happy to write a letter in support of MS applying to any of them to help offset the damage down by predatory priests.

I guess the thing I am saying it that I would like MS to have a good list of members that they can speak for AND to have the finances to do what we do and even more. It takes money to do good works at times.

Let me know if I can help.

Bob

_________________________
If we do not live what we believe, then we will begin to believe what we live.

Wuamei
Member
Registered: 08/19/02
Posts: 2700
Loc: The left turn I should have ta...

Richard:

Like Bob, I thank you for the detailed & clear explanation! And I offer my services to do what I can to help us grow and have more influence helping male survivors, including helping those in financial hardship come into membership.

Also I've already noticed people bringing things that are pertinent and are not confidential that are posted in the members forums over into the public forums. I really don't see anything that was in the forums in the old system that couldn't still be there.

Perhaps all we members and administrators just need to be sure to make a habit of doing this as much as possible.

I too had mixed feelings coming into this especially since the controversy was brewing when I first came on site in August. I was concerned about a "split" atmosphere or something. I am convinced that it could be that way (could anyway) but it doesn't have to be!

It seems to me to be the best decision for all considerations and for everyone involved, including the other survivors and the world out there. Just my opinion of course.

We're all still fellow male survivor brothers and all among friends here. At least that's the way I feel about it.

Richard,Thanks for the post. There are always pros & cons to any choice we make. The pros I see are that I feel a bit safer knowing that everyone in the member's forum has provided enough personal information that they are no longer a complete unknown - (considering the difficulty unmasking LC - I appreciate knowing you could track an offender) - and I agree that it will encourage membership - please continue to offer free/working memberships

The Cons are that I do feel that it creates a separation - but that is ok for now - we will see how it is used and if it causes a rift - I hope it doesn't since I learn so much from the variety of posts - It doesn't look like it has diminished the number of posts so far.

The one thing I would not like to see, however, is that the chatroom would become restricted - for so many it is the first point of entry for persons making their first effort to reach out - trust issues are high and to require membership would mean many would never get the exposure to that first flush of "I am not alone".

On the whole, it is a balanced choice - let's try it and see how it works.

_________________________
"..this place isn't a discussion forum..it's a portal..." Lupin"The truth will set you free, but first it will probably piss you off." dwf's AA sponsor.

I mean no offense to any of the moderators or administrators of this valuable organization. It it weren't for your hours of unpaid labor we would not even have such a sanctuary. I find it interesting, however, to note that the only responses in favor of the newly divided forums are moderators and one member to be. Of course you like it this way, you're on the inside. You don't have to be a brain surgeon to figure that out. I would like to hear from some of the non-members about their feelings on the matter. I don't mean to be a pest, I care about this place and think this is an important issue. I will drop it after this post but I do think we need to get the perspective of all concerned. Speak up boys.

Roy My personal view is that I'm split between the two ways, I like the idea of membership - and to gain more members something has to be offered.Also the security problem is that much better to control.

But I can also see that good, interesting threads might only be availabe on the members forums, which is a shame, but also an encouragement to sign up.

If funds are a problem there's ways around it. I can't see any real reason regular users dont become members. Your anonimity and personal security is safe - if not better.

Lloydy

_________________________
Go confidently in the direction of your dreams! Live the life you've imagined. As you simplify your life, the laws of the universe will be simpler.Henry David Thoreau

Your post indicates that I (the member to be) am in favor of the division in the forums.

I didn't say that. In fact, I said this:

Quote:

So I won't be posting in the other forums when I can. I may read them, but if I see a topic in there I want to respond to, I'll do that here or send a private message as I do now.

If you take my saying "I may read them", as support, you are wrong. If anything, I intend to be a spoiler of sorts and raise interesting topics from private forums in the public ones.

I absolutely feel there has been a schism. I don't know that I would feel that way if I came here for the first time today, but I do know that I would wonder what I was missing out on if I couldn't or wouldn't become a member.

Donald

P.S. I don't like the fact that my name shows up as being on the boards and logged in, and what I have been reading. It just seems so "Big Brother". For now, I keep logging off, and only logging in to make a post.

_________________________
If you understand everything, some things are just as they are. If you understand nothing, things are still just as they are.

First, the Find a Therapist Resource Directory is open to all and will remain open to all.

It is certainly not our intention to allow survivors' personal information to be open to public scrutiny in any way. I will ask the web master to answer about how information sent to us through the web site is protected. I also ask him to post this protection information on the web site where people join MS/NOMSV so that they can make informed decisions.

But anyone who does not trust the privacy protection of the Internet can become a member by sending their membership information through the regular mail system. Once it reaches our administrator, it would stay private. We do NOT give out our membership list for any reason. As I mentioned above, anyone who does not want to be listed in the Directory that goes out to other members can say so and the information will not be listed.

Regarding your question about asking people to provide proof of age, I think that asking this is too invasive of people's privacy, and also too cumbersome to enforce. The way we protect ourselves from predators masquerading as teens (at least on the Private Forums) is simply by having ways to track them down through the information they do provide when they join.

Wuamei
Member
Registered: 08/19/02
Posts: 2700
Loc: The left turn I should have ta...

Thad:

I haven't really used chat & don't know much about it. But I wonder, if they are needed, if separate chat rooms or times could be scheduled just for members that, like the discussion board set-up, would afford greater safety & yet allow greater openness. Just a thot from a brand new moderator. Worth checking into, maybe?

Wuamei
Member
Registered: 08/19/02
Posts: 2700
Loc: The left turn I should have ta...

Roy:

You have a point. But tho I didn't say a lot, I thot that, generally, this change was a good idea when I first heard about it, before I was a moderator or a member. Perhaps becuz I've seen it work so well on other sites I've been active on.

Roy, I'm not saying this sarcastically. But maybe the reason mostly moderators & members have spoken in favor of the change is that we've experienced the member forums, and thus of course both forums, and we see the value & the compatibility of both. At least I do.

For me its not a matter of being on the inside, in a place where others can't come, like some kinda clubhouse or something. It's a matter of being in a place where I am safer to open up more, something I need as I move into the process of disclosure I'm going slowly thru. I cantalk about things there I couldn't in any public forums. At least not yet. Some, maybe never.

Just for the record, I don't think you're being a pest. I think you are sincerely concerned about a site & a group of men you rightly appreciate & love. As we all are. Its our methods not our motives that differ.

And like others I believe me have mixed feelings about it. I know how it feels to be shut out and I don't want anyone to feel that way.

Every male survivor seeking support & recovery has a right to be here at Male Survivor. Every male survivor that wants to be able to say & do more & different things with sufficient safety, and begin a process of discolsure, also has a right to be at Male Survivor and should have a place to do those things, which can't be done on the public forums.

To me this way all male survivors can be better served & accomodated. And, as I am doing, they can come in more anonymously and as they work their recovery, feel they need or want it, and become ready, they can become members.

Wuamei
Member
Registered: 08/19/02
Posts: 2700
Loc: The left turn I should have ta...

Lloydy:

I very much agree with what you're saying. Just some things to point out & thots on the threads, taking off on what you said.

Yes there are some threads even forums that are not available on the public forums, but by necessity--before, these were not available to anybody, period. So in that sense more is being offered to everybody than before. It's just a matter of who wants to take advantage of the new stuff by becoming members.

The only things I see not technically offered on the public boards now are the news, info, classified stuff, if I'm remembering right; the moderator & board of director spots never were available except to those persons.

So far the things I've seen posted in the news etc forums have been brought over to the public forums and discussed here, more than in the member forums in some cases.

Actually, I wonder if there's some good reason that those particular forums can't be in both the public and the member forum areas. I'll check into it.

I, and other members, including administrators, are making a point of bringing over stuff that can be brot over to the public forums.

Wuamei
Member
Registered: 08/19/02
Posts: 2700
Loc: The left turn I should have ta...

Matt:

First of all welcome back from your surgery and I hope that recovery is going well, as well as your recovery as a survivor of SA!

Secondly, not a lot to comment on (isn't that a switch!? ) as far as the legal considerations you bring up. But I've had some of those concerns as well and I'm glad you brot them up. A lot to think about there, and I appreciate it.

Wuamei
Member
Registered: 08/19/02
Posts: 2700
Loc: The left turn I should have ta...

Update:

If you haven't noticed already, the U.S. News, Foreign News, and Classified forums are back in the public forum area. Ask the Board is still in the members area, but as far as I can tell is still available to all. Someone correct me if I'm wrong. Thanks.

I think that means all the forums that were available publicly before are now too. Again, correct me if I'm wrong; I'm not sure about "forum questions & suggestions." I'm memory-challenged.

There is much more going on in the public forum. It is too early to judge either way. Give it a chance. One never knows what will happen. Anyone is free to join. I do not regret it.and one is free to be here on the public side of the forum without dues. If men here feel strongly enough they could come up with dues, or atleast a form of service.

At the very least we should support each other, the board is just looking at different ways to improve the site. Not everyone will agree.

safe and healthy site for men who were or are being abused

MJ

_________________________
Standing together is so much better than hiding in the dark. ***I am a three time WoR Retreat Alumni*** The Round Table, Men's CSA Group, Monday 7:30pm CST, MaleSurvivor Chat

I was away from the site for awhile and came back to the changes. I can understand the need for funding and R NYC's explanation. The thoughts I have regarding a split site with a private members area are:

1. If the decision is really economic then I think of politics, creating a lobby group and professionalization of the organization based on the agenda of a predominantly professional board who want to help survivors. Perhaps not all bad for achieving national impact.

2. If I think of security of survivors and protection from predators or other such creeps I think "nice thought". Is it possible or viable to do it that way and what is the impact of separation of service to the survivors who access this board?

3. Overall I don't feel too bad about it as it is stated that for those who do not have money a way will be made for them to join. I don't know why I have not joined. I am not a creep, (except pre morning coffe time), can prove I am a real live survivor and have the money. I guess I am stubborn and like the idea of common free membership. I also agree funding is possible from other sources.

4. One thing I believe is that no matter how the administration sets things up the cadre of survivors MS serves will find a way to support each other. Those that need help will seek and be sought out by those of who are ready to help and support fellow surviviors.

5. The reality is that all organizations have factions, positions, orientations, agendas and various needs. Groups that can balance these factors without being harsh, manipulative or insensitive have a better chance of living up to their philosophy and mission statement. I hope MS can stay balanced, supportive and caring. Entry points into this group are critical I feel they should be supported with wisdom and ongoing free access.

Wuamei
Member
Registered: 08/19/02
Posts: 2700
Loc: The left turn I should have ta...

Ross:

Good insights! I think it is critical that the problem of male sexual victimization receive the kind of increasing international exposure that will lead to positive healing attitudes & actions in our society on behalf of & working with male survivors.

There is no better organization in place thru which to accomplish such positive exposure & action than Male Survivors. That's becuz there is no better in place than Male Survivors in which we male survivors can mutually support one another internationally.

I see no reason why Male Survivors can't continue to accomplish both: increase exposure of the issue of male sexual victimization internationally and increase support for & between male survivors internationally.

Actually, I don't see how one can happen without the other. They feed each other.

The more we are enabled to support one another & do so, the more credible coverage of the plight of male survivors there will be.

The more we spread the word about our plight & the need for support of every kind, the more good support all male survivors will have & be able to share.

I
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discretion of MaleSurvivor. I agree that my use of MaleSurvivor
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and that my posting privileges may be terminated at any time, and for
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