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Graham, the whole point of "aikido" (or even jutsu?) is to use the least point of resistance.... That can only be achieved by your partners (in your discipline) resisting you while you find the least point of resistance..... That includes atemi don't you think? Hence the reason we use the unsoku method in T/S aikido. I found this quite easy to take to after my boxing training in the R.N. All fighting or martial arts have fundamental stances and movement no matter what part of the globe it comes from. Aikido as a grappling art is no different to judo in my opinion...

Hi Tony. Agreed on the points of finding least resistance and that it includes atemi.

Partners resisting thus forcing you to find those points and indeed those paths is very good training so no disagreement there.

I got invited to a Yoshinkan seminar many moons ago in Bushey, near watford and watched a great exhibition from Aikidoka from all over. It finished with the great man of Yoshinkan doing his demos which were very humourous and had the audience laughing.

However, due to how I had been trained I came away wondering why the students and most of the teachers used resistance and thus got thrown around like toys. I soon got to meet some of them as they visited our dojo, a lot of them knew my teacher and it was there I found the answer to my question.

They hadn't been taught how to hold without such resistance, how to hold in such a way that was centered, relaxed, yet unenterable by someone attacking or trying to do a technique using force. In other words they hadn't been taught the other side of the coin so to speak.

You could say that when you experience someone holding with full non-resistance you enter a whole new arena for to them they say they feel like they are bumping into a wall or something similar yet to you it feels like you are doing 'nothing' and may I say from the outside it looks so as well.

Now before you jump on me there may I say that on reading your recent comments you have experienced this. That's one thing that made me smile. I mean, if you spent all those years getting up to 4th dan then I knew you must know about this side of things to whatever degree. Am I right?

Hi Tony. Agreed on the points of finding least resistance and that it includes atemi.

Partners resisting thus forcing you to find those points and indeed those paths is very good training so no disagreement there.

I got invited to a Yoshinkan seminar many moons ago in Bushey, near watford and watched a great exhibition from Aikidoka from all over. It finished with the great man of Yoshinkan doing his demos which were very humourous and had the audience laughing.

However, due to how I had been trained I came away wondering why the students and most of the teachers used resistance and thus got thrown around like toys. I soon got to meet some of them as they visited our dojo, a lot of them knew my teacher and it was there I found the answer to my question.

They hadn't been taught how to hold without such resistance, how to hold in such a way that was centered, relaxed, yet unenterable by someone attacking or trying to do a technique using force. In other words they hadn't been taught the other side of the coin so to speak.

You could say that when you experience someone holding with full non-resistance you enter a whole new arena for to them they say they feel like they are bumping into a wall or something similar yet to you it feels like you are doing 'nothing' and may I say from the outside it looks so as well.

Now before you jump on me there may I say that on reading your recent comments you have experienced this. That's one thing that made me smile. I mean, if you spent all those years getting up to 4th dan then I knew you must know about this side of things to whatever degree. Am I right?

Regards.G.

I teach my students to resist me fully and let them learn from an uke point of view, if they don't quite get it, I then show them where the angle or least point of resistance is and it always gets a giggle and shaking of heads.... It's where the fun is G, call it I/P or whatever, it can only be done from that option in my opinion. I use my son regularly to test my theories on..... He has a sceptical but healthy respect and passing interest for what I can do as he is massively and naturally strong at 20 yrs, 6'2" and weighs 240 lbs.... I move him with ease and he will spot any weakness in my waza straight away. He is able to do the jo trick and the pushing against his head in a sitting position after I taught him Isometrics, which he has taken up fairly recently. I think that once I am able to resurrect a dojo he will want to come and practice..... I hope he does....
T

I teach my students to resist me fully and let them learn from an uke point of view, if they don't quite get it, I then show them where the angle or least point of resistance is and it always gets a giggle and shaking of heads.... It's where the fun is G, call it I/P or whatever, it can only be done from that option in my opinion. I use my son regularly to test my theories on..... He has a sceptical but healthy respect and passing interest for what I can do as he is massively and naturally strong at 20 yrs, 6'2" and weighs 240 lbs.... I move him with ease and he will spot any weakness in my waza straight away. He is able to do the jo trick and the pushing against his head in a sitting position after I taught him Isometrics, which he has taken up fairly recently. I think that once I am able to resurrect a dojo he will want to come and practice..... I hope he does....
T

Ha ha. Now there's a memory to share. 4 years ago my son turns up by suprise and says 'Dad, it's time I learned this stuff.'

Now that brought up a whole lot of mind stuff I didn't know was there. A mixture of excitement mixed with a strange sense of a new relationship, I mean this was my son I would now be teaching. Took me about two weeks to acclimatise so to speak. It was so different to showing him bits and pieces piecemeal.

Graham, "Ki" as you call it is a subtle use of strength used economically and trained body mechanics, nothing more..... When will people get that....? As for IS/IP the same thing in another guise or hype as Dan likes to harp on about and we all know that to, so no surprise there either, but at least I speak my mind.....
The word ki was never spoken of in all the years I practised aikido except by the laziest of people hoping to find it without effort, that is the problem today....

What you do is an exercise form which is great for you, but it would not work in a real scenario where someone is not going to comply with you, and you know it.....!!

If people would own up and call it an exercise system derived from self defence then I would prefer it, but to call it self defence is an absolute joke and if we were all completely honest.....? Well I am and so are a few others on here, but the rest are completely in cuckoo land and in with the fairies, but that's life, full of Walter Mitties and few able to cope with reality.... but who am I ? Just a nobody according to many on here, ha ha!! However I do like your audacity and the way people fawn over your posts, it's quite amusing, keep it up!!

Tony,

I appreciate your consistency. As to your opinions stated about things that you have absolutely no direct experience about, you are consistently wrong. Just because you like to speak your mind, does not make you any closer to being right. Putting hands on with somebody like Dan would quickly clarify your stated position. Trying to put hands on with somebody like Ushiro Sensei (Ki in another form than Aikido- his is karate) you would not only fail, but get injured in the process.

The wise man knows where he is ignorant and seeks to explore and educate himself from those who have more knowledge than he. The wise man has no problems stating opinions based upon direct experiences, while always seeking and learning so as to develop, change and refine his opinions. The wise man typically succeeds in life, as evidenced by success in most, if not all areas (work, family, other pursuits). That success is the direct result of an utter lack of laziness. That success is the direct result from working harder and longer than most are willing to do. The Fool-on-the-hill thinks that he speaks form a high vantage point with mountains never climbed behind him. The man hides behind opinions and finds ways to avoid having to experience things that challenge current beliefs, while discounting the beliefs and experiences that are different than his. This man's life is typically reflected as well....

I am currently in the airport lounge in Narita, having spent a weekend at a special training camp widening my knowledge and horizons. Paid for with the fruits of my hard labor. Where I come from, a man makes his own way in life. Gratitude is displayed in small, yet meaningful gestures amongst fellow travelers that share much together.

It would be nice to have a meaningful discussion with you based upon real experience. That is simply impossible until such time that you stop hiding behind excuses, opinions based upon a lack of experience, and a condescending attitude toward others that frankly speaking, have achieved a heck of a lot more than you apparently might ever achieve. While those people you choose to insult, still aspire and are working hard to reach higher, continuously widen their horizons and deepen their understandings of what they know, you simply bluster and hide behind where you have placed yourself in your life.

I appreciate your consistency. As to your opinions stated about things that you have absolutely no direct experience about, you are consistently wrong. Just because you like to speak your mind, does not make you any closer to being right. Putting hands on with somebody like Dan would quickly clarify your stated position. Trying to put hands on with somebody like Ushiro Sensei (Ki in another form than Aikido- his is karate) you would not only fail, but get injured in the process.

The wise man knows where he is ignorant and seeks to explore and educate himself from those who have more knowledge than he. The wise man has no problems stating opinions based upon direct experiences, while always seeking and learning so as to develop, change and refine his opinions. The wise man typically succeeds in life, as evidenced by success in most, if not all areas (work, family, other pursuits). That success is the direct result of an utter lack of laziness. That success is the direct result from working harder and longer than most are willing to do. The Fool-on-the-hill thinks that he speaks form a high vantage point with mountains never climbed behind him. The man hides behind opinions and finds ways to avoid having to experience things that challenge current beliefs, while discounting the beliefs and experiences that are different than his. This man's life is typically reflected as well....

I am currently in the airport lounge in Narita, having spent a weekend at a special training camp widening my knowledge and horizons. Paid for with the fruits of my hard labor. Where I come from, a man makes his own way in life. Gratitude is displayed in small, yet meaningful gestures amongst fellow travelers that share much together.

It would be nice to have a meaningful discussion with you based upon real experience. That is simply impossible until such time that you stop hiding behind excuses, opinions based upon a lack of experience, and a condescending attitude toward others that frankly speaking, have achieved a heck of a lot more than you apparently might ever achieve. While those people you choose to insult, still aspire and are working hard to reach higher, continuously widen their horizons and deepen their understandings of what they know, you simply bluster and hide behind where you have placed yourself in your life.

Marc Abrams

Consistent I am, conned you are or maybe you like to be conned, I don't know, I don't care..... No excuses, that is why I/we are called "Shodothugs"? When I see a form of competition in all the other forms of aikido I will be more likely to take note and listen, until then no chance. We are heretics/mavericks, no doubt about that as was Tomiki Shihan. Unfortunately a few Tomiki "exponents " have gone down the kata only route to, so no big surprise there either.
Not everyone is up to test their "ability" and I appreciate that not everyone wants to learn Self Defence, but health kata only....... Great for the elderly, less able and those of a non competitive nature.
Fine, but please admit to it. Don't say you teach self defence when it isn't....
As for "insulting" that much depends on the thickness of your skin and how sensitive your sensitivities are, but that's your problem Marc not mine...... Maybe more revealing which is good for Joe Public so that they can make a more informed decision as to what they really want from MA. It's interesting to note that MMA schools are doing well, those that teach good MMA that is, as they have their con merchants to.
Yet we see a decline in traditional Japanese MA, strange don't you think? The reason that people like Dan Harden is able to do lots of seminars teaching people how to do aikido again?..... What a mess!!
I do not profess to teach "aikido" anymore as the truth is becoming apparent there is very little of it actually around and it's synonymous with something akin to a health system, not self defence..... You tell me buddy.....

FWIW I think that were Dan to post a video, regardless of it's content, you'd be preprepared with your "been there/done that" attitude. You're welcome to your opinions but I think that the manner in which you voice them is disingenuous.

You claim to only use plain speaking and express the need for a "put up or shut up" attitude that includes testing if stuff works; so why didn't you take up Dan's offer to go and see for free and "test" him? You wouldn't shell out because it was expensive, in terms of the number of people and the time involved I don't actually think it was so expensive after all a good 12+ hours for the money. Yes I expect you'll redirect this question by asking why not free for all etc etc... please don't bother unless you want to answer the asked question first.

I'll freely admit that I was skeptical, I attended the seminar and if I had come away feeling that Dan was anything less than genuine, friendly and warm in his attitude or that he was "selling snake oil" or some such scam to gull folk out of their hard earned money I can assure you that I would be on here with a big flag waving to let people know to avoid him; I didn't because that's not the impression I came away with, I also didn't come on here to "big him up" because I don't think he needs us to do that, the only reason I decided to post is because I want to position myself (silence being assent) in opposition to the manner in which you comment and approach the debate(s).

You're welcome to your opinions but they'd come across as more worthwhile if they were based on experience and not just speculation.

Tony saidThe word ki was never spoken of in all the years I practised aikido

Hi Tony

Good to see you back. I thought you had been banned and deported :-)
In the 1950s / 1960s we never discussed Ki - Abbe Sensei said it was being taught by correct application of technique - there was no need to keep on about Ki - in those days it was just a part of your application of technique, never was it considered to have magical properties.. It those days Aikido was taught as a martial art or self defence - take yer pick.
You raise many good points Tony, but I am afraid you are flogging that long dead old horse, once you realise it really is dead then like me you will finally let them get on with whatever they want ``their `` Aikido to be...Relax Tony, breath through your toes, it will be good for you.

I kind of knew someday I'd jump into this topic. I waited so long I had to jump in with both feet and so many serious practicioners of all types surrounding this topic. Too bad there's no emoticon for kinda scared ....

I have a varied background which includes what you might call "solid" aikido, and the more "ki-oriented" you might say. I'm grateful to both.

I'm also familiar with both conversation styles, having been a gofer in the building trades for many years after the family publishing business was sold...

I think my best recommendation for the future of aikido is to make clear to each entering (and continuing) student what the panorama is and have them think what suits their needs and capabilities at the time, but keep in mind what they might need to train later on...

I'll stop here for now, but I just wanted to pay respects to both sides in a very forceful and vehement way, although my writing style isn't as good as the rest of you!

I guess things were just too peaceful and we needed another rousing chorus of the blind men describing the elephant, at top volume, as acrimoniously as possible, screaming insults and waving their canes as they try to bash each other into agreement/submission. What a disgrace.

I guess things were just too peaceful and we needed another rousing chorus of the blind men describing the elephant, at top volume, as acrimoniously as possible, screaming insults and waving their canes as they try to bash each other into agreement/submission. What a disgrace.

Tony saidThe word ki was never spoken of in all the years I practised aikido

Hi Tony

Good to see you back. I thought you had been banned and deported :-)
In the 1950s / 1960s we never discussed Ki - Abbe Sensei said it was being taught by correct application of technique - there was no need to keep on about Ki - in those days it was just a part of your application of technique, never was it considered to have magical properties.. It those days Aikido was taught as a martial art or self defence - take yer pick.
You raise many good points Tony, but I am afraid you are flogging that long dead old horse, once you realise it really is dead then like me you will finally let them get on with whatever they want ``their `` Aikido to be...Relax Tony, breath through your toes, it will be good for you.

I know Henry that you are right, it's just such a disappointment that people can only resort to belittling me with so called intellectual philosophy and cannot see what it is us more dinosaury igorant folk might actually see and feeeeeeeel, when in fact I have shown them up to be what I have always suspected, but I shouldn't actually act at being surprised, because I'm not.....
I may be academically thick, but I do know a scam when I see it, and know the truth when it's presented to me hidden in plain sight!!
The old true school are dying and it makes me wonder what the hell I've been doing all these years when I read what I read on this forum, which to me, and I suspect quite a few others think to, that it's too far gone down the pan and it needs people like Desperate Dan's new age I/P I/S to get it all back on line again? Yet we can't find out anything about him? Other than say so, which is expected from "disciples"....... I have heard he is a smithy in weapons or some such thing. Short of using a mechanical hammer other than his own physical strength, (if he still uses the old methods?) would mean that he has good body core strength from hard physical work. Add a bit of training in some combat arts and hey presto we have a new martial awareness which no one else or few have discovered....... What??
Tomiki Shihan was of the same attitude as your teachers that the practice of waza, hard training and it's basics are where it's really at..... It's what he learned from Kano and Ueshiba, or maybe it's all lies?
Oh no!! It's now some new age thing called I/P I/S aikido is now the thing to be sought after....... It remains to be seen, but I sincerely have my doubts and will continue to breathe as I have always done since birth or go blue in the face trying otherwise. As for relaxing I have managed to learn that to some extent over the years. I think I have done enough to let people know the difference to really have their eyes and ears open and not listen to the claptrap that has been the fashion to follow until it's been tried and truly tested. I am always amazed at how gullible people are, but that's life Sensei...... Maybe I should be banned & deported so that the new age way can have their way?
Hows Rik & Derek?

I guess things were just too peaceful and we needed another rousing chorus of the blind men describing the elephant, at top volume, as acrimoniously as possible, screaming insults and waving their canes as they try to bash each other into agreement/submission. What a disgrace.

Which is what I would expect from an old school mistress type, rapping my fingers with a wooden ruler when I was naughty

I kind of knew someday I'd jump into this topic. I waited so long I had to jump in with both feet and so many serious practicioners of all types surrounding this topic. Too bad there's no emoticon for kinda scared ....

I have a varied background which includes what you might call "solid" aikido, and the more "ki-oriented" you might say. I'm grateful to both.

I'm also familiar with both conversation styles, having been a gofer in the building trades for many years after the family publishing business was sold...

I think my best recommendation for the future of aikido is to make clear to each entering (and continuing) student what the panorama is and have them think what suits their needs and capabilities at the time, but keep in mind what they might need to train later on...

I'll stop here for now, but I just wanted to pay respects to both sides in a very forceful and vehement way, although my writing style isn't as good as the rest of you!

Actually Dianne I like your writing and the way you tell little stories about your experiences.... it has a ring of truth about it all, which I find endearing....

The old true school are dying and it makes me wonder what the hell I've been doing all these years when I read what I read on this forum, which to me, and I suspect quite a few others think to, that it's too far gone down the pan and it needs people like Desperate Dan's new age I/P I/S to get it all back on line again? Yet we can't find out anything about him? Other than say so, which is expected from "disciples"....... I have heard he is a smithy in weapons or some such thing. Short of using a mechanical hammer other than his own physical strength, (if he still uses the old methods?) would mean that he has good body core strength from hard physical work. Add a bit of training in some combat arts and hey presto we have a new martial awareness which no one else or few have discovered....... What??

I never thought that I'd see the day that Dan was described as "new age". Really Tony, I think you'd enjoy meeting him, give it a try.

FWIW I think that were Dan to post a video, regardless of it's content, you'd be preprepared with your "been there/done that" attitude. You're welcome to your opinions but I think that the manner in which you voice them is disingenuous.

You claim to only use plain speaking and express the need for a "put up or shut up" attitude that includes testing if stuff works; so why didn't you take up Dan's offer to go and see for free and "test" him? You wouldn't shell out because it was expensive, in terms of the number of people and the time involved I don't actually think it was so expensive after all a good 12+ hours for the money. Yes I expect you'll redirect this question by asking why not free for all etc etc... please don't bother unless you want to answer the asked question first.

I'll freely admit that I was skeptical, I attended the seminar and if I had come away feeling that Dan was anything less than genuine, friendly and warm in his attitude or that he was "selling snake oil" or some such scam to gull folk out of their hard earned money I can assure you that I would be on here with a big flag waving to let people know to avoid him; I didn't because that's not the impression I came away with, I also didn't come on here to "big him up" because I don't think he needs us to do that, the only reason I decided to post is because I want to position myself (silence being assent) in opposition to the manner in which you comment and approach the debate(s).

You're welcome to your opinions but they'd come across as more worthwhile if they were based on experience and not just speculation.

Regards
Rich

No Rich wrong, I might even see something in common with what I do and be more inclined to want to try out one of DD,s seminars, but I still think it's expensive, until then I don't go for something blind. By the way warm & friendly is sometimes a good marketing ploy. It makes one popular and I have found it a little too familiar. I tend to be a little distant until I feel comfortable with people and then open up. Something a little old fashioned & typically British? Others have put up stuff like Aunkai and Ushiro , although I've seen his stuff before and know where he is coming from, (some of it is very similar to T/S aikido believe it or not) but most mainstream aikido has this missing as well as other MA, oh what a shame!!..... I'm glad that I didn't waiver in my past and stuck to what I know works best, hard work, strong basics and good teachers.... It's where we differ maybe?

I'm glad that I didn't waiver in my past and stuck to what I know works best, hard work, strong basics and good teachers.... It's where we differ maybe?

I was not passing judgement on either your training or teachers but rather your manner in discussing perspectives; I'm not in a position to judge you or your teacher(s).

Looking at your reply it could be inferred from that you've no qualms in doing that with my training and teachers which suggests that perhaps you could examine your own observation regarding being more warm and friendly; I may have misunderstood you though.

You were given an opportunity for a risk free trial of something and turned it down, it's your option to do so, but to continue to denigrate it because you've chosen not seen it when given the opportunity and also to cast aspersions about someone you haven't met is just not cricket.

I was not passing judgement on either your training or teachers but rather your manner in discussing perspectives; I'm not in a position to judge you or your teacher(s).

Looking at your reply it could be inferred from that you've no qualms in doing that with my training and teachers which suggests that perhaps you could examine your own observation regarding being more warm and friendly; I may have misunderstood you though.

You were given an opportunity for a risk free trial of something and turned it down, it's your option to do so, but to continue to denigrate it because you've chosen not seen it when given the opportunity and also to cast aspersions about someone you haven't met is just not cricket.

I never thought that I'd see the day that Dan was described as "new age". Really Tony, I think you'd enjoy meeting him, give it a try.

Best,

Chris

Much less since the tenants of what I am teaching, pre-date most of the martial methods we see. It stands to reason it will cause angst among those who learned the martial arts from the outside...in.
Tony's sarcastic comment "I guess I have been doing everything wrong..." I actually I have heard from shihan, senior teachers and students alike. "I didn't know, that I didn't know..." as a regular occurance in my world. In fact, from so many teachers in different branchs of the art that I lost track. Finding out you never really got aiki after trying most of your life is tough on all of us. More so that so many teachers didn't know how to teach it.
New age...is paltry to the host of insults I get to listen to from Tony, and this after offering to host him for free and buy him dinner.
Liar
Manipulator,
con man
scam artist
charleton
snake oil salesman
Obviously all okay to say here, and any attempt at a defense lumps me in as "being the same." What is clear is that it is NOT okay to respond.
So, no thanks to what is loosely being called a discussion, and no thanks to any meeting.
Dan

In the 1950s / 1960s we never discussed Ki - Abbe Sensei said it was being taught by correct application of technique - there was no need to keep on about Ki - in those days it was just a part of your application of technique, never was it considered to have magical properties.. It those days Aikido was taught as a martial art or self defence - take yer pick.

Is it possible that Abbe Sensei didn't possess enough information about ki or ki training that others had?

Which is what I would expect from an old school mistress type, rapping my fingers with a wooden ruler when I was naughty

Tony,
Hows the knuckles?Bit bruised?? I bet you would look cute with a pair of darkened glasses /white stick tapping on the buttocks of a Indian elephant.Maybe Mary would care to produce a remake of an old Sabu the elephant boy movie and put you in the leading role??
Methinks you would be better than Mr Seagal. Title of said Movie =Tony, the Blind Elephant Man and his faithful Companion , White Cane checking out Dumbo.Have an nice day, Sabu,
Cheers, Joe.

Is it possible that Abbe Sensei didn't possess enough information about ki or ki training that others had?

Regards,
Gerardo

Dear Gerado,
As someone who met and practised with Abbe Sensei I can tell you he had more Budo talent in his little finger than most people have in their whole body.The very idea that Abbe Sensei was unaware of Aiki to me is nonsense.As the founder of Kyu Shin Do [I suggest you research this ] he was a man who in my opinion was a genius.He was instrumental in introducing Aikido to the U.K in the 50s.
For a start check out Mr Ellis webpage on the Net.
Cheers, Joe.