Originally by:ZW DewittAnd then they create a new trial account and start all over again... seems like nothing but a waste of time from our perspective, care to prove otherwise to the playerbase?

Yes, they can create new trial accounts, but they then have to start all over again and build their farming characters from scratch. This takes a while and isn't bottabe to the same degree…

…but I think that what Atropos is talking about here is finding the toons who actually sit on the large sums of ISK that they actually sell, and putting those accounts (and anyone who's traded with them) into negative bazillions of ISK. That halts their efforts rather pronto-like.

With those gone, the spambots are gone as well. No reason to advertise for a service that you can no longer provide.

Originally by:Tala SasakiYou don't know they're chinese that's racist or some form of bigotry.

You don't know why he said they're chinese so you're jumping to conclusions.

I just really dislike how it's always 'chinese gold farmers' or 'chinese isk farmers' with absolutely no proof what nationality they are and how loosely the term is banded around accusingly so much in so many games.

Geoff Iddison, chief executive of Runescape maker Jagex [...]"A lot of this is coming from China," he said. "We had tens of thousands of accounts in China that were just bots working the game to make gold and then sell it."

Originally by:CCP AtroposI really hate this kind of disinformation that people spread. Please, please, please report every instance of isk selling or macro mining you find. The reason people always reply with some off the cuff remark of "Thats good in theory but CCP never do anything!" or "Our logs don't show anything" is because they want immediate results.

Unfortunately for them there are paper trails to follow and procedures to be gone through before we ban people for macromining, RMT, etc. The best analogy is to imagine it as a giant jigsaw; each time someone reports a seller or bot it allows us to put another piece of the puzzle in place. Sometimes it's a side piece allowing you to track down a whole slew of other pieces, sometimes it's just a bit out in the middle of nowhere that has no connection to the rest, as yet. Needless to say, all the reports are pieces in the jigsaw, and if some people weren't so stupid as to constantly tell people that CCP does nothing about them, the jigsaw would be completed a lot sooner.

Of course, it's an ongoing battle, so once this jigsaw is complete, there's another to be finished, but such is the way of the world.

/rant

While i understand that it's an ongoing battle... You didnt say what section we should petition these players under.

It would be nice to have a section specifically for suspected macros. I've gone to petition a few, but cant figure out what section to put the petition under, so I usually just dont bother.-I wish I had something witty to put in a signature.-

It has an entire section on China, but not on any other countries... I wonder why?

It's not racist or stereo-typing when you can back it up with facts and figures.

The majority of isk/gold farmers come from China, that is a fact.

Backing it up with facts and figures is one thing, nobody will argue there is a high probability most "farmers" are Chinese but attaching a nationality to an offence WITHOUT PROOF is something else.

So I take a segment directly from mentioned entire section on China.

Quote:There are gold farmers or gold farms in other countries as well, such as the Philippines, Indonesia, and Mexico. However, they do not approach the scope and scale of the Chinese farm industry.

South Korea is also notable for its level of gold farming, so much so that South Korea is currently considering legislation to regulate the exchange of virtual currency.

There are gold farms in many countries even western ones. But you don't want to see it, it's so much easier for you to just see it as a 'chinese farmer' someone for you to direct your hate towards.

Quote:It's not racist or stereo-typing when you can back it up with facts and figures.

To draw attention to this comment, just because a certain minority of a certain race or nationality is known for commiting a certain crime (yes there will be facts and figures no doubt) doesn't give anyone the right to assume that when a crime happens that it was a member of whatever race or nationality, if this happened then anyone who does not fall into the stereo typed race / nationality could commit the crime without any fear of being suspected as you would soon find out if you were a police officer suspecting a certain race with absolutely no proof, you would lose your job or be given some asingment that didn't require your judgement.

Using "facts and figures" to justify stereo typing and prejudice well if you can't see how ridiculous that is... well I'm done here.

Posted - 2008.05.11 06:39:00 -
[35]
Of course there are more chinese isk farmers than other countries, there are more of every type of person in China. Look up World Population by country someday.

I have a good friend who would do great in Eve. However as they're Chinese there is no way I'm exposing them to this. This kind of entrenched racism is sickening.----Infiniband can do more than just prevent lag

Originally by:Tala SasakiThere are gold farms in many countries even western ones but you and many others don't want to see it, it's so much easier for you to just see it as a 'chinese farmer' someone for you to direct your hate towards.

I don't hate them - I don't know them. Any "gold farmer" is bad. Calling them a Chinese isk farmer is just more simple.

Unless you're saying that to call someone Chinese is Racist, I don't see what the problem is.

Quote:Using "facts and figures" to justify stereo typing and prejudice well if you can't see how ridiculous that is... well I'm done here.

Would you prefer it if we said Asian Isk Farmers then?

People-from-poor-countries Isk Farmers?

When the BBC say it's mostly from China, when the owner of another MMORPG says it's almost exclusively from China and when the Wiki entry has an entire section on China, I'm going to go with the notion that they're mostly Chinese.

Originally by:YoinxWhile i understand that it's an ongoing battle... You didnt say what section we should petition these players under.

It would be nice to have a section specifically for suspected macros. I've gone to petition a few, but cant figure out what section to put the petition under, so I usually just dont bother.

Please file such reports under 'Rules & Policies' - 'EULA & Terms of Service'. Whilst it may not seem apparent, all of these reports are looked into. As Atropos said, these things take time and we do take such things very seriously. Please keep the reports coming - they are of great assistance to us.

I agree. Whenever the term 'Chinese' is used on the forum, it seems inevitably linked to 'ISK farmer' which is only going to be reinforcing a negative stereotype. The connotation is that there is something bad about being not only an ISK farmer, but being Chinese at all.

What we see is a large country, with a great disparity in wages with 'our' countries (mostly EU and USA?), but a lesser disparity (in some parts of it) in technology ie: internet.

The dispassionate observation of "most ISK farmers are based in China" or "are Chinese" is fine in my eyes. The venom filled vilification of an entire race really is not.

Originally by:CCP AtroposI really hate this kind of disinformation that people spread. Please, please, please report every instance of isk selling or macro mining you find. The reason people always reply with some off the cuff remark of "Thats good in theory but CCP never do anything!" or "Our logs don't show anything" is because they want immediate results.

Unfortunately for them there are paper trails to follow and procedures to be gone through before we ban people for macromining, RMT, etc. The best analogy is to imagine it as a giant jigsaw; each time someone reports a seller or bot it allows us to put another piece of the puzzle in place. Sometimes it's a side piece allowing you to track down a whole slew of other pieces, sometimes it's just a bit out in the middle of nowhere that has no connection to the rest, as yet. Needless to say, all the reports are pieces in the jigsaw, and if some people weren't so stupid as to constantly tell people that CCP does nothing about them, the jigsaw would be completed a lot sooner.

Of course, it's an ongoing battle, so once this jigsaw is complete, there's another to be finished, but such is the way of the world.

/rant

I wish I could agree.

It seems pretty clear to me that CCP is relatively happy to have the business of the chinese farmers. If they wanted them gone, they could get rid of 90% of them for good- tomorrow.

For starters- I don't see a good reason for even allowing anyone in a chinese ip range to access tq without special permission- they already have their own server for which we can not just casually sign up.

CCP is clearly profiting from their presence, as they are a much larger part of the subscriber base than anyone would like to admit or even think about.

I do see evidence that some of them are being banned, but the worst offenders stay in game even after being reported. The ones that get banned are the trial accounts, and the other newbish characters that don't matter so much.

For instance, the farmers use one character to interact with the agent and completely separate characters to carry out combat missions. The farmers that fly raven/domi/drake etc in missions are never banned. They just pick up bookmarks from a station and then complete missions belonging to another farmer character.

Also, some slight tweaks to the game mechanics would make it much harder for the macros. Eliminating courrier missions would be a step in the right direction. Or at least making them require t2-expanded haulers only and not shuttles/frigs. A lot of the most popular farming stations also have a natural insta in the form of a planet or whatever. Rotating these stations to face out into the middle of nowhere would make life much harder for the farmers. It would help even more if CCP would break the undock instas completely.

Sorry, I am not convinced that CCP is putting serious effect into killing off the farmers that are slowly killing eve.

Originally by:Tala SasakiI just hate how it's always 'chinese gold farmers' or 'chinese isk farmers' with absolutely no proof what nationality they are.

Bayes Theorem, which relates the probability of two apparently independant random occurances based on observations of their occurance, suggests that given a high observed probability of chinese players being isk farmers and a relatively moderate probability of a player being chinese, there is a high probability of farmers being chinese. When compared to the same probability for non-chinese players, it's possible to show that the generalisation is true. Maybe he wasn't being a bigot, just a bit of a mathemagician.

Posted - 2008.05.11 11:46:00 -
[44]
To those that are suggesting we ban all chinese IP addresses, it is actually quite easy to re-route and play EVE from China from an IP in the US.

Whilst it may stop some, I think we'd find it may just stop the genuine Chinese players, and those are the players who have invested quite a bit in their character on Tranquility before they had the Chinese server available to them. Understandably they may not want to have to start again from scratch.

Originally by:CCP AtroposI really hate this kind of disinformation that people spread. Please, please, please report every instance of isk selling or macro mining you find. The reason people always reply with some off the cuff remark of "Thats good in theory but CCP never do anything!" or "Our logs don't show anything" is because they want immediate results.

Unfortunately for them there are paper trails to follow and procedures to be gone through before we ban people for macromining, RMT, etc. The best analogy is to imagine it as a giant jigsaw; each time someone reports a seller or bot it allows us to put another piece of the puzzle in place. Sometimes it's a side piece allowing you to track down a whole slew of other pieces, sometimes it's just a bit out in the middle of nowhere that has no connection to the rest, as yet. Needless to say, all the reports are pieces in the jigsaw, and if some people weren't so stupid as to constantly tell people that CCP does nothing about them, the jigsaw would be completed a lot sooner.

Of course, it's an ongoing battle, so once this jigsaw is complete, there's another to be finished, but such is the way of the world.

/rant

Since macroers, isk farmers and traders are such a big issue, maybe CCP should start an official thread (and sticky it) telling the community how to go about reporting them. Also, since some people seem to lack faith in CCP's ability to investigate the offenders and take action against them, it might be useful if some information is provided on how complicated and lengthy the process is.

Basically, tell us how important it is for us to report offenders and why. Encourage us to do so!

Originally by:Mike RowlingsSince macroers, isk farmers and traders are such a big issue, maybe CCP should start an official thread (and sticky it) telling the community how to go about reporting them. Also, since some people seem to lack faith in CCP's ability to investigate the offenders and take action against them, it might be useful if some information is provided on how complicated and lengthy the process is.

Basically, tell us how important it is for us to report offenders and why. Encourage us to do so!

An official thread regarding this is something to be looked into, I agree.

With regards to reporting them, as above, EULA & Terms of Service category. I'm afraid that the request regarding information on the investigation process is something we can not assist with, as divulging information on these processes would only lead to these investigations becoming more complicated and taking more time. You have my assurance however that this is a matter we share your concerns on and take very seriously indeed.

Posted - 2008.05.11 13:08:00 -
[47]
TBH, if you took it that seriously, you would do exactly what Sony did with EQ. Add in a detector to the client that can "see" third party programs that directly access memory locations of certain data. For example, ships holds, jet cans, station hangar, overview etc.

On opening, cargo windows, container and jet can windows etc do not open in the same position so creation of a mouse move macro won't work either.

That leaves only the account sharing which can easily be detected when you see that a character has been playing 23 hours a day for several days. The logs alone will show past account login history so results for petitioning them could easily be immediate.

Either get serious about it or give us the tools to issue retribution.

Originally by:DrizitTBH, if you took it that seriously, you would do exactly what Sony did with EQ. Add in a detector to the client that can "see" third party programs that directly access memory locations of certain data. For example, ships holds, jet cans, station hangar, overview etc.

I do not want CCP to install a trojan like warden on my pc, thank you.

Originally by:DrizitTBH, if you took it that seriously, you would do exactly what Sony did with EQ. Add in a detector to the client that can "see" third party programs that directly access memory locations of certain data. For example, ships holds, jet cans, station hangar, overview etc.

I do not want CCP to install a trojan like warden on my pc, thank you.

Originally by:DrizitTBH, if you took it that seriously, you would do exactly what Sony did with EQ. Add in a detector to the client that can "see" third party programs that directly access memory locations of certain data. For example, ships holds, jet cans, station hangar, overview etc.

I do not want CCP to install a trojan like warden on my pc, thank you.

Have you considered handing out 'gold stars' (ie some sort of useless, yet tangible, reward) to people who report these guys? If handed out something down the line when these people were banned then at least those people reporting them would know they are not just wasting their breath.

Not only that, but you'd likely have people trying to gather as many 'gold stars' as possible, even though they serve no purpose.

It wouldn't take you much time, and you'd be giving feedback to the players who take their time to look for these folks.

This!!

When I played WoW , I reported gold farmers all the time, and I'd always get a response, and not always a macroed one , made it feel like it was worth the trouble.==================================================

Originally by:DrizitTBH, if you took it that seriously, you would do exactly what Sony did with EQ. Add in a detector to the client that can "see" third party programs that directly access memory locations of certain data. For example, ships holds, jet cans, station hangar, overview etc.

I do not want CCP to install a trojan like warden on my pc, thank you.

Got something to hide then?

Dude, have you *seen* Oveur? Would you really give that man your mother's telephone number?----Infiniband can do more than just prevent lag

Posted - 2008.05.11 14:12:00 -
[53]
You mean the players that store their CNR fits in GSCs when they log off aren't legit? I am shocked and appalled.

You're living in a dream world if you think CCP is ever going to be able todo anything on a large scale other than ban the trial account ISK sale spammers, as much as they want to post to the contrary the farmers are a huge portion of the player base. A huge portion that in general - doesn't whine, doesn't engage in blob combat, doesn't ragequit, and doesn't cancel their subs while training.

It's OK though, CCP will continue to bait you with promises of 'faction warfare, ambulation, fixing 'features' like the UI migrating across the screen on every session change.

It's not completely CCP's fault though, clearly the farmer handlers are further ahead of the game than CCP's dirty ISK interdiction team. They know enough to move it around several times to reduce the bannination chances of the origin accounts. Wholesale banning of every suspicious transaction on every account would just result in more emo posts on the forums about -15 billion balances and such. That's certainly publicity CCP doesn't need.

For people calling racism, if it walks like a duck and talks like a duck, it's probably a frakin duck. Chinese aren't the only nationality with ISK farmers by far, but they are clearly in the majority. I really doubt an angry Russian farmer would be spamming me in Traditional Chinese characters after removing him from his raven.

Originally by:CCP AtroposI really hate this kind of disinformation that people spread. Please, please, please report every instance of isk selling or macro mining you find. The reason people always reply with some off the cuff remark of "Thats good in theory but CCP never do anything!" or "Our logs don't show anything" is because they want immediate results.

Unfortunately for them there are paper trails to follow and procedures to be gone through before we ban people for macromining, RMT, etc. The best analogy is to imagine it as a giant jigsaw; each time someone reports a seller or bot it allows us to put another piece of the puzzle in place. Sometimes it's a side piece allowing you to track down a whole slew of other pieces, sometimes it's just a bit out in the middle of nowhere that has no connection to the rest, as yet. Needless to say, all the reports are pieces in the jigsaw, and if some people weren't so stupid as to constantly tell people that CCP does nothing about them, the jigsaw would be completed a lot sooner.

Of course, it's an ongoing battle, so once this jigsaw is complete, there's another to be finished, but such is the way of the world.

/rant

Two days ago I petitioned a group of probable macro-miners. I don't expect results already.

However, those characters were all more than 5 months old, and it's only probable they've been petitioned quite a few times already.

How many more billions will they make before you start acting?

But banning them all would only slow things, not stop RMT. For that there's only one solution, and that's to inspire the fear of the all-mighty CCP in every potential buyer. And in that respect, just reversing the transaction is ridiculously unscary, imho. Same for the threat of bans. If you say someone tempted to buy isks that bans are only for the most extrem cases, even if he get caught, you just undermined the threat to the point that said player will think he's just too lucky, or there always more extremes cases, and that finally, risks are worth taking, since it's another one that will be banned.

If you just ban every single isk-buyer you find, then the threat is "really scary" in the eyes of the potential offenders, and will act as a real deterrent.------------------------------------------

Posted - 2008.05.11 16:04:00 -
[55]
IF you bother to do a whois on the sites the isk sellers are promoting, you will see that most of the owners are "wong" "tong" "mong" "liu" "chan" or whatever, located in Beijing, Honk-Kong, or any other yellow country.

10-15 yrs ago when I started to play online games I had nothing against those people.

Today after I've been abused with spam, hack & scam attempts so many years, I do have something against them. I realise that not all of asians are gold farmers or scammers, but 99.9% from the ones I've meet in any MMORPG are.

I mean, when I'm wanting a new PvP ship, because I was a muppet and jumped into a gate camp, I want to make cash fast as possible to get back in the field again.

If I'm 'saving up' for a carrier, I'm wanting to grind up a billion isk in as short a time as possible. Sometimes I might even use a couple of alts to help in this, e.g. with hauling or whatever.

When missioning, there's no prizes for 'taking it slow'.

This is what many players in EVE do.

However, it's almost exactly the same thing that an 'isk farmer' does - the only difference is that one uses it to buy new ships (or GTCs). And the other sells it on their website.

*shrug*. Macroing is against the EULA. Running 5 accounts to mine, and selling the isks is against the EULA. Running 8 accounts and mining up a fleet of dreadnoughts for your corpmates is not. (And yes, it's actually fairly easy to multi-account mine, I've seen it done)--Crane needs more grid249km locking?

Originally by:Akita TTo show people that CCP cares enough, a simple minor gesture would suffice.Just introduce a brand new petition category : Macros and RMT.Would that be so hard ?

Too much effort for too little reward. What CCP should give consideration to is making it easier to report potential macros and suspected RMT users. In most MMOs worth their salt, there's a quick report function for common infractions like spamming. A quick-reporting function separate from the petition system would not only make players more willing to report macros but it would stop the issue where people can't report them because they're limited to one or two petitions active at a time.

I'll be honest here, I don't report it when I see a dozen "fguihdfgiuh"s in haulers because it's too much effort and I'm not the only one. The average eve player just doesn't bother because making them use the petition system sets the effort barrier way too high. If there was an option on the dropdown list for their name to file a quick RMT report requiring me to only write a few sentences, more people would report them.

Originally by:CCP Atropos The reason people always reply with some off the cuff remark of "Thats good in theory but CCP never do anything!" or "Our logs don't show anything" is because they want immediate results.

No, They say "Our logs dont show anything" due to the fact this is a standard response to nine out of ten petitions on any subject under the sun.

They say "ccp dont do anything" after sitting plaaying a game where the same 'known' glitch bugs again and again for 2 years running

You should be thankful they vent on the forums rather then quitting your game.

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