I recently bought myself a digital piano with weighted keys and I discovered that my arms get tired and start hurting easily. I know this is because my fingers and forearms are "out of shape" and that constant exercising and playing will eventually build up my endurance.

Is there any way to speed this up? Like, do weights or other physical activities increase my performance quicker? I want to get back to how I used to play years ago before college.

I've been doing weight training since I started fitness last year, and it feels to me like it improves strength and endurance, as well (strangely enough) relaxed playing. You could give it a try, it's fun to see these muscles appear where you never knew there were any

During college I hardly ever played. And for the last 2 years I've been playing on a Casio keyboard... no key resistance at all. The most obvious shortcut to endurance I can think of is to excersize my forearms with weights and use that contraption that guitarists use to strengthen their fingers...

As for swimming... I'm at a loss, both logically and because I don't have a swimming pool in my bvackyard.

I too play on a keyboard without any weight on the keys, I can't last, or do as much, when I am playing on weighted keys. I think that if you diligently practice the strength and endurance will come naturally.

_________________Madam, what makes you think that I play with my hands?

[quote="claudiogut"]During college I hardly ever played. And for the last 2 years I've been playing on a Casio keyboard... no key resistance at all. The most obvious shortcut to endurance I can think of is to excersize my forearms with weights and use that contraption that guitarists use to strengthen their fingers...

a quick one, when I was in uni I used to use the grand piano and so as their upright(practice room when ever is avaliable at my lunch breaks and early morning(7.30am) or other free time.
This will build your finger power/forearm straight away.

Weights will NOT make you faster. Anyone that says that doesn't know what they're talking about. Bulking up can only make you slower. You play slow because you have tension in your arms and hands. Get rid of the tension and you will play fast - simple as that. That's what your practice should focus on -- not on strengthening your hands for more endurance, but in relaxing so you never get tired in the first place. The absence of tension will also get rid of the soreness that may happen as you mention.

When you don't play for awhile, the muscles are not as coordinated as they could be, and in haste to play faster, you are using your muscles in an inefficient manner. Don't worry so much about speed right now. Take care of the coordination and tension issues and speed will happen on its own.

Weights will NOT make you faster. Anyone that says that doesn't know what they're talking about. Bulking up can only make you slower. You play slow because you have tension in your arms and hands. Get rid of the tension and you will play fast - simple as that. That's what your practice should focus on -- not on strengthening your hands for more endurance, but in relaxing so you never get tired in the first place. The absence of tension will also get rid of the soreness that may happen as you mention.

When you don't play for awhile, the muscles are not as coordinated as they could be, and in haste to play faster, you are using your muscles in an inefficient manner. Don't worry so much about speed right now. Take care of the coordination and tension issues and speed will happen on its own.

Have fun and make sure the bench is the right height!! lol

Josh

YES, YES, YES!!! You are absolutely right, Josh! (Your playing is evidence of that!)

I can preach this to my students 'til I'm blue in the face! Coordination is EVERYTHING!

Far too often, the novice practices futility over utility. Attempts at "building strength" are often made by putting a constant downward pressure on the keys. To cite the metaphorical beaten dead horse, Chopin's 10/1 (the 10/2 even more so) is mistakenly played with this great downward friction and therefore great difficulty. This practice of keybedding is the single most destructive (not to mention frustrating) activity in which a pianist can engage. The correct technique is not one involving brute force, in fact the polar opposite is true! We must strive toward a technique of kinetic minimums. Imagine the greyhound; with perfect coordination, it can attain astonishing speeds with, what at first glance, is a terribly frail carriage.

here is my saying... and welcome to correct me if you think I am wrong..

You know I actually add weights to my keys...for last 15 years.....this is differnt to your adding weights to your forarm or some kind of weight training. You can call me a crazy weird pianist.

Up to these days, I can still play fast and relaxed, as I walked to a paino show room, I soon relalized, my "finger strengths/arm, trainings resulted in a great benefits.. But the cordination do come first before power. Another word, "Power without control, its nothing....."

Can you imagine, if I took off these weights(only apprx.10% heavier than standard full size yamaha grand), you reckon my hands will play faster?????.....perhaps one day, I will take it off to see.

The best way, is to have ANOTHE pianio with a ligter touch....and you have the both world.
FF and PPP playing......practice smarter not harder...

Johnmar78...how do you weight your piano keys?! I assume that this means they are harder to press down? Can I do this on a Yamaha clavinova?

People have mentioned that relaxation is more important then strength, which I have found to be true up to a certain extent, but it doesn't seem to work for me on pieces where either hand is constantly playing over a wide range - e.g. Chopin's op10 no1, or the last 5 min or Liszt remininscences of Norma (i.e. 5 min of fast arpeggios and scales). In the Chopin study, I start out relaxed, but by the end my arm is killing me! I find that in order to hit the notes you need to have a certain amount of tension in your muscles. Maybe I've got it all wrong?! From watching a recent video of Earl Wild play Ravel's Gaspard, he looks so relaxed it seems he might fall of his chair, yet this piece is horrendous??

[quote="IsaacNewton981"]Johnmar78...how do you weight your piano keys?! I assume that this means they are harder to press down? Can I do this on a Yamaha clavinova?

People have mentioned that relaxation is more important then strength, which I have found to be true up to a certain extent, but it doesn't seem to work for me on pieces where either hand is constantly playing over a wide range - e.g. Chopin's op10 no1, or the last 5 min or Liszt remininscences of Norma (i.e. 5 min of fast arpeggios and scales). In the Chopin study, I start out relaxed, but by the end my arm is killing me! I find that in order to hit the notes you need to have a certain amount of tension in your muscles. Maybe I've got it all wrong?! From watching a recent video of Earl Wild play Ravel's Gaspard, he looks so relaxed it seems he might fall of his chair, yet this piece is horrendous??

Good question. No you may not increase the weight on clavonoa, unless you want to take a risk and open it up----not worth a time.

Think of olympians, they are super fit and can do many laps when relaxed. They can push to higher limit too than average person. When more power and endurance is reserved in your body. I am sure its easier for you to excute as compared to an average person.
I am reasonable stong but also relaxed. because, less % muscle mass is used to produce a same effort as compred to an average person. anotherword, you have to be fit with trainning too.
I hope tis makes sence.

Yesterday. I played the clavonia at my parents place....so as my kids... It was so easy to play the same etude as compared to Grand(my one). again,We all find it requires less effort, as speaking from a 7 years old child....I am sure I have proved my point, at least to my own findings...

Putting additional weights on the keys change not only the pressure to hit the key. It changes also the weight at which a key goes up again.

But much more important, it makes the thing more tenacious because of the added inertia. But who likes to have a more stringy action? In my opinion, putting additional weight makes more trouble than that it helps. Also for very soft playing, I can imagine that additional weight is counterproductive.

I have to add, that mentally concentrate on the touch that you have to imagine that your arm/body natural weight is droped(contacted) to the moment of sound projection to the the keys. This requires a certain of relaxzation in muscle and your reflex. By all means, speed is genertated thru relaxzation. Once the key is stiked(fallen)-relax.

In piano playing, 80% (estimate) is your natural weight and 20% is muscle power. You will expore this thru a period of slow "natural falling" practice. TRUST ME>And thanks for reading.

I have to add, that mentally concentrate on the touch that you have to imagine that your arm/body natural weight is droped(contacted) to the moment of sound projection to the the keys. This requires a certain of relaxzation in muscle and your reflex. By all means, speed is genertated thru relaxzation. Once the key is stiked(fallen)-relax.

In piano playing, 80% (estimate) is your natural weight and 20% is muscle power. You will expore this thru a period of slow "natural falling" practice. TRUST ME>And thanks for reading.

You are completely right IMHO. But what has this to do with your proposed idea to put additional lead in the keys to make them heavier than normal? The drawbacks of this are higher than the benefits, so I see it.

[
In piano playing, 80% (estimate) is your natural weight and 20% is muscle power. You will expore this thru a period of slow "natural falling" practice. TRUST ME>And thanks for reading.[/quote]

You are completely right IMHO. But what has this to do with your proposed idea to put additional lead in the keys to make them heavier than normal? The drawbacks of this are higher than the benefits, so I see it.[/quote]

I suppose, that add a bit more power on that "20%", more resevation the better. But again, only a little extra weight.

[ In piano playing, 80% (estimate) is your natural weight and 20% is muscle power. You will expore this thru a period of slow "natural falling" practice. TRUST ME>And thanks for reading.

You are completely right IMHO. But what has this to do with your proposed idea to put additional lead in the keys to make them heavier than normal? The drawbacks of this are higher than the benefits, so I see it.[/quote]

I suppose, that add a bit more power on that "20%", more resevation the better. But again, only a little extra weight.

You must come to play my piano when you visiting australia. [/quote]

one last last very important thing that people always get CONFUSED.

There is no such thing as total relaxzation or no tension at playing; but rather an art of EASE OF tension on playing. This is something we all have to master and explore thru .......

I read an article on the internet about using the "gravity drop" technique. It involves using gravity to play forte passages with the arms and hands. I've never used this technique myself because it would take too much time and effort to "re-learn" piano playing with this technique. Also, I'm afraid I'll be learning something that might give me some bad playing habits. The author stated that using gravity with the arms and hands increases stamina with long performances. Has anyone used this technique before or believe it is effective?
Randy

I read an article on the internet about using the "gravity drop" technique. It involves using gravity to play forte passages with the arms and hands. I've never used this technique myself because it would take too much time and effort to "re-learn" piano playing with this technique. Also, I'm afraid I'll be learning something that might give me some bad playing habits. The author stated that using gravity with the arms and hands increases stamina with long performances. Has anyone used this technique before or believe it is effective?Randy

yes, I further improved with op53 and refine the gravity -weight technique..and it worked. another reduction in tension....so as other chopins etudes. Its an fine art...........to master this technique...

And really, the 25/1 and the 25/12 Etudes are great to use in conjunction to build strength in the hands and arms, because the 25/1 calls for delicacy, while the 25/12 calls for ferocity, mostly. They work different muscles, I think. Both of them will leave your arms and hands aching at anything close to performance tempo unless you're really in shape - in other words, either is a really good measure of exactly how strong your hands and arms are.

Likewise, the 10/1 and the 10/12 are good to practice in conjunction with each other - one builds the right hand, and the other builds the left.

And really, the 25/1 and the 25/12 Etudes are great to use in conjunction to build strength in the hands and arms, because the 25/1 calls for delicacy, while the 25/12 calls for ferocity, mostly. They work different muscles, I think. Both of them will leave your arms and hands aching at anything close to performance tempo unless you're really in shape - in other words, either is a really good measure of exactly how strong your hands and arms are.

I am wondering a bit whether really strength in the hands and arms is needed to play those etudes 25/12, and especially 25/1 in performance tempo. At least for 25/1 I think absolutely relaxed and tension free hands and wrists (for the rotary wrist movements the arppegios in both hands demand) is needed, and the task is to maintain this relaxed stadium also at faster speeds. Strength is something what is more needed to louder pieces, but 25/1 is normally treated as a soft but fast played piece.

I am wondering a bit whether really strength in the hands and arms is needed to play those etudes 25/12, and especially 25/1 in performance tempo. At least for 25/1 I think absolutely relaxed and tension free hands and wrists (for the rotary wrist movements the arppegios in both hands demand) is needed, and the task is to maintain this relaxed stadium also at faster speeds. Strength is something what is more needed to louder pieces, but 25/1 is normally treated as a soft but fast played piece.

As I said, the 25/1 is played delicately, but the constant fast motion of the fingers, not to mention the rolling motion required of your hands, the pivoting of your wrists, the constant accent required of your right 5th finger, is very taxing on your muscles unless you are in shape. I played the 25/1 for a competition in high school, and even when the competition came, I was still aching after playing it at performance tempo, from cramps in my hands to aching forearms. But I never practiced for hours a day like I should have - usually an average of two hours at most - so I wasn't really in shape for it.

As I said, the 25/1 is played delicately, but the constant fast motion of the fingers, not to mention the rolling motion required of your hands, the pivoting of your wrists, the constant accent required of your right 5th finger, is very taxing on your muscles unless you are in shape. I played the 25/1 for a competition in high school, and even when the competition came, I was still aching after playing it at performance tempo, from cramps in my hands to aching forearms. But I never practiced for hours a day like I should have - usually an average of two hours at most - so I wasn't really in shape for it.

I played (and posted) the piece too. Can also not imagine that playing it very often in a row is useful - cramps it what should be avoided ultimately, I think. Not only that it is no good for the technique, with cramps one never can play soft and lyrical. But force will not help, strength - I dunno. Maybe endurance?

but the constant fast motion of the fingers, not to mention the rolling motion required of your hands, the pivoting of your wrists, the constant accent required of your right 5th finger, is very taxing on your muscles unless you are in shape. I played the 25/1 for a competition in high school, and even when the competition came, I was still aching after playing it at performance tempo, from cramps in my hands to aching forearms. But I never practiced for hours a day like I should have -

Thanks for sharing your experience. According to your "rolling action " and Olafs rotation of hands thats where the "gravity" playing is most applied.or noticed.---I hope all of us can see that who is a bit confused about gravity playing.

The hand aching was the "wrong approach", it never happened or occured to me any any time but not as far as you do at least. It seems to me that, you played a little too fast than your actual physical conditions. These cramps or aching are the results of too much tension build ups and perhaps no one actually pointed out to you at your playing....

I played (and posted) the piece too. Can also not imagine that playing it very often in a row is useful - cramps it what should be avoided ultimately, I think. Not only that it is no good for the technique, with cramps one never can play soft and lyrical. But force will not help, strength - I dunno. Maybe endurance?

Sorry if I wasn't clear - I wasn't trying to suggest force, as you seem to interpret it, as an approach to playing the 25/1 in any way, only that force can best be achieved through coordination, and that of course it helps to have strength, and that the 25/1 and the 25/12 are good etudes for building strength. And yes, endurance is a good word, but the definition of endurance in this case is intrinsically linked to strength. I think that you guys are translating the word "strength" into some idea of forceful playing that I did not in any way mean to imply.

Quote:

It seems to me that, you played a little too fast than your actual physical conditions.

That was precisely the point, though - the Etude, at that time, served as a judge of the strength in my fingers and forearms. I didn't practice enough to build the strength necessary to play it without fatigue. Which brings me back to the first post made in this thread. If you are used to playing on lightweight keys, it simply follows that you will have to build the strength in your fingers and arms back up again with a switch to weighted keys. Anything that employs a constant workout of your fingers/wrists/forearms will be beneficial, whether the exercise is delicate playing or ferocious playing. The various techniques that can be employed to avoid fatigue are pertinent, of course, but they don't negate the benefit of general strength-building exercises.

[quote by terez
I didn't practice enough to build the strength necessary to play it without fatigue. Which brings me back to the first post made in this thread. If you are used to playing on lightweight keys, it simply follows that you will have to build the strength in your fingers and arms back up again with a switch to weighted keys. Anything that employs a constant workout of your fingers/wrists/forearms will be beneficial, whether the exercise is delicate playing or ferocious playing. The various techniques that can be employed to avoid fatigue are pertinent, of course, but they don't negate the benefit of general strength-building exercises.[/quote]

Thanks for your honesty. Now you have backed me up of my ideas of "adding weights to keys(38g) " as suppose to stregth training for the last 12 years. (I know Olaf does not like my idea)And 2 weeks ago I removed 14 gs. Just want to see the difference.... Well, perhaps I get use to it...it seems not much effect at all but a little more feel on keys as compared to before. a little more speed.

I can understand a reluctance to add weight to keys. When I play on lightweight keys, I feel out of control, and though I can pull off some fast passages with less effort, I have more of a tendency to make mistakes. But just the right amount of weight to build more strength and flexibility in the fingers without creating a vast difference in feel as compared to a normal piano keyboard - I can't imagine that it wouldn't be helpful.

Another really good etude for strength and flexibility in the left hand is the 25/6 etude. I've never worked this one up for anything serious, but I did manage to work it up to perhaps an acceptable performance tempo in my spare time, once. I found it a lot easier to play many, many things after working on that etude.

Hmm, I just noticed there's no recording of it. I might work on that one, too.

Edit - just saw that there was a complete set of Etudes at the bottom of the Etude page. I might do it anyway.

Lately, I have discovered the art of playing without using excessive strength or "none "to produce a tone. No enoroumous physical amout of muscle power is required, this can be acheived in different approach as pointed out by the masters. The "only "muscle required is a light movement of finger stroke....trust me. no effort is required. Even on choipns octave study.....

chopin's etude op.25 no.10 is great for training the stamina of both the left and right hand

_________________Carrying on to work on Schubert Impromptus op.9 nos.1,3&4 after competition. Going to learn no.2 to complete the set. Carrying on with Czerny op.299 from Bk 2 & working on a couple of Bach P+F's

i realized that u shouldn't aim for having more stamina.
What u should aim for is complete freedom in your playing.
In other words, u must be completely relaxed.
I strongly advise that learning chopin etudes can be dangerous IF it is learned improperly (meaning played with tension). You can learn many bad habits.
I started to do yoga so i can practice being relaxed. Relaxation is at least 70% of piano technique,

[quote="hunwoo"]i realized that u shouldn't aim for having more stamina.
What u should aim for is complete freedom in your playing.
In other words, u must be completely relaxed.
I strongly advise that learning chopin etudes can be dangerous IF it is learned improperly (meaning played with tension). You can learn many bad habits.
I started to do yoga so i can practice being relaxed. Relaxation is at least 70% of piano technique,[/quote]

Huwoo, good to see you back..I am just about to go to melbourne.....

Yes, there are two appoaches with practice, one with slow FF, and second one with opposite.

I agree with the relaxed, slow technique for practicing and building stamina, but has anyone mentioned the good old fashioned exercises you find in Hanon, or the Schmitt Preparatory Exercises? By playing these, one can focus on finger strengthening without worrying about interpretation or correct notes of a piece. I use these to warm up before practicing pieces and feel much stronger fingers in playing.

[quote="Mozartiana"]I agree with the relaxed, slow technique for practicing and building stamina, but has anyone mentioned the good old fashioned exercises you find in Hanon, or the Schmitt Preparatory Exercises? By playing these, one can focus on finger strengthening without worrying about interpretation or correct notes of a piece. I use these to warm up before practicing pieces and feel much stronger fingers in playing.

Mozartiana [/quote]

with now days, new technique. The hannon and other finger exercise, is treated as part of HISTORY. I have been thru them when I was a kids or teenager. But these days, its proven not as effecive as the new technique. But we will never forget the good theory and work came out by Hannon and others. Once, the tone is produced, its too late to go back....I dnt use them these days, to be honest....

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