Not sure OBJ would agree with your assessment that Rhodes struggles against quick receivers. That was the worst beatdown of a so-called superstar wideout that I have ever witnessed.

I put OBJ in the Calvin Johnson, Brandon Marshall, Julio Jones mold. AB is more Percy Harvin/Stefon Diggs. Quick-twitch, great route-runners (though Harvin may not have qualified for the latter but hopefully I'm communicating the distinction).

What?

OBJ is 5-11, 198 -- very similar to Antonio Brown (5-10, 185) and one of the smaller #1 WRs in the league. Diggs is actually a little bigger at 6-0.

Megatron is 6-5, 240. Marshall is 6-4, 230. Jones is 6-4, 220. Those guys are brutes. And Rhodes handled Megatron pretty well during his day.

Not sure OBJ would agree with your assessment that Rhodes struggles against quick receivers. That was the worst beatdown of a so-called superstar wideout that I have ever witnessed.

I put OBJ in the Calvin Johnson, Brandon Marshall, Julio Jones mold. AB is more Percy Harvin/Stefon Diggs. Quick-twitch, great route-runners (though Harvin may not have qualified for the latter but hopefully I'm communicating the distinction).

What?

OBJ is 5-11, 198 -- very similar to Antonio Brown (5-10, 185) and one of the smaller #1 WRs in the league. Diggs is actually a little bigger at 6-0.

Megatron is 6-5, 240. Marshall is 6-4, 230. Jones is 6-4, 220. Those guys are brutes. And Rhodes handled Megatron pretty well during his day.

Sometimes I forget OBJ is that "short." He plays big. From what I've witnessed, I'd just compare his game more to the guys I mentioned. Maybe that's just my dumb analysis though.

I read that both players grew up in/near Miami and attended Miami Norland High School. Rhodes apparently trains in the offseason with Brown, so he should know him well. Going up against Diggs in practice should also be good practice. Do we know if Rhodes has gone up against Brown in an NFL game?

_________________“Some people think football is a matter of life and death. I assure you, it's much more serious than that.” --- Bill Shankly

Wed Sep 13, 2017 9:04 pm

J. Kapp 11

Hall of Famer

Joined: Fri Sep 22, 2006 12:57 pmPosts: 6853

Re: Week 1 reaction thread

dead_poet wrote:

Sometimes I forget OBJ is that "short." He plays big. From what I've witnessed, I'd just compare his game more to the guys I mentioned. Maybe that's just my dumb analysis though.

I read that both players grew up in/near Miami and attended Miami Norland High School. Rhodes apparently trains in the offseason with Brown, so he should know him well. Going up against Diggs in practice should also be good practice. Do we know if Rhodes has gone up against Brown in an NFL game?

You probably read the article on Vikings.com. Nice read.

The OBJ I see is very quick and shifty. He made the amazing one-handed catch a couple of years ago, which made him look big, but he's a small dude. He's also a lot like Brown in that he's really, really tough after the catch. Changes direction like a fly.

Honestly, I think Rhodes can hold his own against anybody, Brown included. That's not to say he'll school Brown like he did OBJ. Nobody really holds AB to 3 catches for 23 yards. But anything Brown gets against Rhodes, he's gonna have to earn. That was not the case against Cleveland. Pittsburgh ran a couple of bubble screens to Brown ... the Browns were playing so far off AB that he had a 10-yard cushion when he caught the balls. Minnesota's not going to let that happen. Everybody in our secondary can tackle, and all the corners can play press.

It's gonna be a tough test. Pittsburgh is a 6-point favorite. That seems like a lot to me, but I guess home field accounts for 3 points. Whatever. The Steelers are favored, and they should be. But I will not be surprised if the Vikings steal this one.

Not to be a negative nancy. But remember; according to last years stats we put up a nearly *exactly* average offense display against the Saints.

We did put up average points against the Saints D from last year (they gave up 28.4 ppg). But we drove for 100 more yards than they gave up on average per game (lack of turnovers meant every scoring drive was a long one). ...And the defense held the Saints to roughly 50 yards and 10 points under last year's average.

It's gonna be a tough test. Pittsburgh is a 6-point favorite. That seems like a lot to me, but I guess home field accounts for 3 points. Whatever. The Steelers are favored, and they should be. But I will not be surprised if the Vikings steal this one.

I rewatched the Steelers/Browns game. Hard to be impressed with either team. Pittsburgh is a 6 point favorite based almost entirely on last year's records.

...As they probably should be at this stage. But it's hard for me to see this game as anything other than a tossup, except for HFA, but then again, I'm a fan.

Thu Sep 14, 2017 12:44 am

mansquatch

Hall of Fame Candidate

Joined: Mon Oct 17, 2005 2:44 pmPosts: 3388Location: Coon Rapids, MN

Re: Week 1 reaction thread

This is just like last season when we were winning. The odds makers do not appreciate the quality of our defense. It will be a tight game. I think the fact we are getting PIT in week 2, before their offense has had time to fully come together favors the Vikings.

_________________Winning is not a sometime thing it is an all of the time thing - Vince Lombardi

_________________“Some people think football is a matter of life and death. I assure you, it's much more serious than that.” --- Bill Shankly

Thu Sep 14, 2017 2:19 pm

Pondering Her Percy

Hall of Fame Inductee

Joined: Thu Dec 13, 2012 3:38 amPosts: 4921Location: Watertown, NY

Re: Week 1 reaction thread

dead_poet wrote:

What plays?

I mean he had 3 INTs last year. In other words, making plays. He also had 11 pass breakups. Tied with guess who? Xavier Rhodes. Not try to compare him to Rhodes but the guy made plays. It's not like he's being routinely burned for touchdowns. He needs to get better yeah. But to compare him to Chris Cook is asinine. As for PFF, They had Newman as the #9 overall cover CB, Rhodes at 29 and Waynes at 85. Is Xavier Rhodes really the 29TH best cover CB in the league? Come on now. So that doesnt tell me a whole lot.

Quote:

Absolutely not. I don't expect Waynes to be at Rhodes' level. Few cornerbacks are. But when he gets picked on time and again and allows 80-90% of passes to be completed, come on. You don't have higher standards for a corner than that?

Well who else are they going to "pick on" DP?? You arent going to pick on Rhodes. Nickel CBs arent always on the field so obviously you have to pick on someone. And obviously it's not going to be the superior CB so I'm not sure what you really expect there[/quote]

Quote:

But he also wasn't part of the solution. His coverage responsibility consistently caught the ball. Just because others also didn't give him any help doesn't absolve him of failing to prevent the completions.

But if a very hard headed coach that has no problem calling out his players says Trae Waynes did his job, then I'll side with him. Zim could've easily had Waynes playing way off guys for a reason. You dont know. If Zim called out Waynes, then yeah, he played like garbage but that wasnt the case and you have no idea what he had Waynes doing on those plays. I feel that if it was for the one long completion Waynes wouldnt even be brought up.

Quote:

It was good coverage but, yet again, he didn't prevent the completion. That's the story with him. And that's the problem.

You can only prevent so much. Especially when you're 10 yards off a WR and he runs a 5 yard hitch which happened alot all game. Also given the fact that nobody in the NFL has a quicker release than Brees.

Bottom line is, if Mike Zimmer say Trae Waynes, "tackled well, got turned around and beat on a double move but overall did his job", then I agree with Mike Zimmer. It's easy to sit behind a TV screen and pick apart why he isnt preventing completions but when you arent on the sideline calling the plays and then hear Zim publicly say he's doing his job, you tend not to worry. Maybe thats just me.

I'm not saying the guy is some stud CB by any means but I believe he's an average to slightly above average CB. I just feel like he gets exposed a lot more because teams arent throwing to Rhodes nearly as much.

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Thu Sep 14, 2017 2:53 pm

PacificNorseWest

Career Elite Player

Joined: Fri Nov 11, 2011 1:10 amPosts: 2360Location: Seattle, Wa

Re: Week 1 reaction thread

My week 1 reaction:

Thu Sep 14, 2017 8:38 pm

mansquatch

Hall of Fame Candidate

Joined: Mon Oct 17, 2005 2:44 pmPosts: 3388Location: Coon Rapids, MN

Re: Week 1 reaction thread

I'm sorry, but how can you find fault in Waynes' performance on Thursday? Sure they completed some passes against him, but did he give up the big play? Did he give up a TD when the game was on the line? The answer is no. They held one of the 5 best QB and one of the best 5 offenses in the NFL to 19 points and 7 of those came in garbage time.

Really hard to argue with those kinds of results.

Also how many of the completions came in the 4th Quarter? At that point the Vikings were running a Cover 2 zone and were willing to give up the short passes and tackle the WR in bounds to keep the clock moving. Those completions are not net positives for the Saints, they are negative as the run the clock. It is also exactly what the coach was calling. This is exactly why Zimmer rips PFF all the time.

_________________Winning is not a sometime thing it is an all of the time thing - Vince Lombardi

Fri Sep 15, 2017 8:15 am

PurpleMustReign

Starting Wide Receiver

Joined: Mon Jan 24, 2005 5:48 pmPosts: 18250Location: Crystal, MN

Re: Week 1 reaction thread

mansquatch wrote:

I'm sorry, but how can you find fault in Waynes' performance on Thursday? Sure they completed some passes against him, but did he give up the big play? Did he give up a TD when the game was on the line? The answer is no. They held one of the 5 best QB and one of the best 5 offenses in the NFL to 19 points and 7 of those came in garbage time.

Really hard to argue with those kinds of results.

Also how many of the completions came in the 4th Quarter? At that point the Vikings were running a Cover 2 zone and were willing to give up the short passes and tackle the WR in bounds to keep the clock moving. Those completions are not net positives for the Saints, they are negative as the run the clock. It is also exactly what the coach was calling. This is exactly why Zimmer rips PFF all the time.

I think some people want the opposing QB to go 0-40 and be sacked 10 times. I had no problems with Waynes last week. I was more concerned with Newman.

I want less than 90% of the targets in his coverage completed. This doesn't feel like an unreasonable request.

_________________“Some people think football is a matter of life and death. I assure you, it's much more serious than that.” --- Bill Shankly

Fri Sep 15, 2017 10:44 am

Pondering Her Percy

Hall of Fame Inductee

Joined: Thu Dec 13, 2012 3:38 amPosts: 4921Location: Watertown, NY

Re: Week 1 reaction thread

PurpleMustReign wrote:

I think some people want the opposing QB to go 0-40 and be sacked 10 times. I had no problems with Waynes last week. I was more concerned with Newman.

I get what you're saying. Newman gave up a deep ball and didnt have nearly as many tackles as Waynes but nobody mentioned Newman's name. Why is that?

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Fri Sep 15, 2017 11:02 am

Texas Vike

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Joined: Sat Aug 18, 2012 9:52 amPosts: 3552

Re: Week 1 reaction thread

Pondering Her Percy wrote:

PurpleMustReign wrote:

I think some people want the opposing QB to go 0-40 and be sacked 10 times. I had no problems with Waynes last week. I was more concerned with Newman.

I get what you're saying. Newman gave up a deep ball and didnt have nearly as many tackles as Waynes but nobody mentioned Newman's name. Why is that?

He's a 39 year old vet in the final chapter of his career, whereas Waynes is a young, pedigreed player on whom we spent a high draft pick. Is it not normal that expectations would be different?

Fri Sep 15, 2017 12:33 pm

mansquatch

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Joined: Mon Oct 17, 2005 2:44 pmPosts: 3388Location: Coon Rapids, MN

Re: Week 1 reaction thread

In terms of judging performance: No. Burned is burned. Not executing is not executing.

_________________Winning is not a sometime thing it is an all of the time thing - Vince Lombardi

Fri Sep 15, 2017 1:07 pm

IrishViking

All Pro Elite Player

Joined: Thu Oct 17, 2013 11:02 amPosts: 1631

Re: Week 1 reaction thread

Texas Vike wrote:

Pondering Her Percy wrote:

PurpleMustReign wrote:

I think some people want the opposing QB to go 0-40 and be sacked 10 times. I had no problems with Waynes last week. I was more concerned with Newman.

I get what you're saying. Newman gave up a deep ball and didnt have nearly as many tackles as Waynes but nobody mentioned Newman's name. Why is that?

He's a 39 year old vet in the final chapter of his career, whereas Waynes is a young, pedigreed player on whom we spent a high draft pick. Is it not normal that expectations would be different?

I'd say its a bell curve. I have about the same expectations when you compare experience vs physical ability.

Fri Sep 15, 2017 1:41 pm

Texas Vike

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Joined: Sat Aug 18, 2012 9:52 amPosts: 3552

Re: Week 1 reaction thread

mansquatch wrote:

In terms of judging performance: No. Burned is burned. Not executing is not executing.

Sure. I see it that way too, but I can comprehend why there might be higher expectations for Waynes. It is frustrating to watch him be so clueless about where the ball is. He sometimes looks like he's on ice. He's a fast skater, but he can't control his speed or the rest of his body.

We'll have a much more difficult test this weekend, which will show us where we are at in our secondary.

Fri Sep 15, 2017 2:09 pm

Pondering Her Percy

Hall of Fame Inductee

Joined: Thu Dec 13, 2012 3:38 amPosts: 4921Location: Watertown, NY

Re: Week 1 reaction thread

Texas Vike wrote:

He's a 39 year old vet in the final chapter of his career, whereas Waynes is a young, pedigreed player on whom we spent a high draft pick. Is it not normal that expectations would be different?

I dont care how old Newman is. He's shown he can do it so why are we giving him a pass? "Oh yeah, Newman got burned but he's old so thats ok". No it doesnt work that way.

I guess what I find funny is we are talking about two plays out of how many where our defense didnt technically "dominate" an elite offense. Are we really that worried? It's not like we just played the Browns. It was Drew Brees and the New Orleans Saints. And neither Trae Waynes or Terrance Newman put our defense/team in any kind of serious jeopardy so I'm not sure why this is even a conversation

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Fri Sep 15, 2017 2:36 pm

mansquatch

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Joined: Mon Oct 17, 2005 2:44 pmPosts: 3388Location: Coon Rapids, MN

Re: Week 1 reaction thread

Pondering Her Percy wrote:

Texas Vike wrote:

He's a 39 year old vet in the final chapter of his career, whereas Waynes is a young, pedigreed player on whom we spent a high draft pick. Is it not normal that expectations would be different?

I dont care how old Newman is. He's shown he can do it so why are we giving him a pass? "Oh yeah, Newman got burned but he's old so thats ok". No it doesnt work that way.

I guess what I find funny is we are talking about two plays out of how many where our defense didnt technically "dominate" an elite offense. Are we really that worried? It's not like we just played the Browns. It was Drew Brees and the New Orleans Saints. And neither Trae Waynes or Terrance Newman put our defense/team in any kind of serious jeopardy so I'm not sure why this is even a conversation

Because fans are bored and they are not used to not having anything negative to talk about. Wait until they lose, this board will light up like a Christmas tree.

_________________Winning is not a sometime thing it is an all of the time thing - Vince Lombardi

Fri Sep 15, 2017 3:04 pm

Texas Vike

Hall of Fame Candidate

Joined: Sat Aug 18, 2012 9:52 amPosts: 3552

Re: Week 1 reaction thread

Pondering Her Percy wrote:

Texas Vike wrote:

He's a 39 year old vet in the final chapter of his career, whereas Waynes is a young, pedigreed player on whom we spent a high draft pick. Is it not normal that expectations would be different?

I dont care how old Newman is. He's shown he can do it so why are we giving him a pass? "Oh yeah, Newman got burned but he's old so thats ok". No it doesnt work that way.

I guess what I find funny is we are talking about two plays out of how many where our defense didnt technically "dominate" an elite offense. Are we really that worried? It's not like we just played the Browns. It was Drew Brees and the New Orleans Saints. And neither Trae Waynes or Terrance Newman put our defense/team in any kind of serious jeopardy so I'm not sure why this is even a conversation

Some of you guys are so hypersensitive about any criticism of anything related to the MN Vikings. At least Wobby gets paid for his homerism, you suckers do it for free.

I am pleased with how our D played on Monday, but I can see why DP sees some areas for concern in Waynes.

Lastly, (cause I think I'm about done with this post-Moth board), hope you all enjoy the game Sunday! Skol Vikings!

The league fined safety Kenny Vaccaro and rookie linebacker Alex Anzalone $24,309 each for unnecessary roughness penalties in Week One's contest against the Minnesota Vikings, according to a league spokesman.

Vaccaro's penalty occurred at the :22 mark of the second quarter, where he appeared to lead with his helmet before leveling Vikings wide receiver Stefon Diggs.

For the record, I think Waynes is a star in the making. I really don't worry about him. He limits YAC, plays the run well, anticipates plays well. I think he takes a big step forward this year. Newman OTOH, I thought his play dropped off alot in the 2nd half of the season last year. Curious to see where Brock plays on Sunday.

For the record, I think Waynes is a star in the making. I really don't worry about him. He limits YAC, plays the run well, anticipates plays well. I think he takes a big step forward this year. Newman OTOH, I thought his play dropped off alot in the 2nd half of the season last year. Curious to see where Brock plays on Sunday.

He reminds me of Winfield with his run defense. I hope he can be at least as good as Winfield.

For the record, I think Waynes is a star in the making. I really don't worry about him. He limits YAC, plays the run well, anticipates plays well.

Really? Wow. I don't know. I prefer my corners to prevent completions on occasion. Those other things are important, sure, and Waynes is a good run defender. But he kind of sucks at his primary responsibility right now. YMMV. I don't know what gives people such confidence in him. Newman was excellent last year, even if he faded down the stretch. Waynes was unquestionably worse in coverage. Now Newman is declining more and I've seen little growth from Waynes. I understand cutting Waynes some slack, but when opposing passers are completing such a high percentage of passes in his coverage I'm concerned. It was the same thing last year.

Don't get me wrong, I obviously want him to succeed. Having the next No Fly Zone would be awesome. But Waynes is a below average cover corner IMO. I'm hoping for improvement. Or for competition/rotation with Mac and Brock.

_________________“Some people think football is a matter of life and death. I assure you, it's much more serious than that.” --- Bill Shankly

Fri Sep 15, 2017 7:25 pm

Pondering Her Percy

Hall of Fame Inductee

Joined: Thu Dec 13, 2012 3:38 amPosts: 4921Location: Watertown, NY

Re: Week 1 reaction thread

Texas Vike wrote:

Pondering Her Percy wrote:

Texas Vike wrote:

He's a 39 year old vet in the final chapter of his career, whereas Waynes is a young, pedigreed player on whom we spent a high draft pick. Is it not normal that expectations would be different?

I dont care how old Newman is. He's shown he can do it so why are we giving him a pass? "Oh yeah, Newman got burned but he's old so thats ok". No it doesnt work that way.

I guess what I find funny is we are talking about two plays out of how many where our defense didnt technically "dominate" an elite offense. Are we really that worried? It's not like we just played the Browns. It was Drew Brees and the New Orleans Saints. And neither Trae Waynes or Terrance Newman put our defense/team in any kind of serious jeopardy so I'm not sure why this is even a conversation

Some of you guys are so hypersensitive about any criticism of anything related to the MN Vikings. At least Wobby gets paid for his homerism, you suckers do it for free.

I am pleased with how our D played on Monday, but I can see why DP sees some areas for concern in Waynes.

Lastly, (cause I think I'm about done with this post-Moth board), hope you all enjoy the game Sunday! Skol Vikings!

No we aren't hypersensitive. It's just that we're at the point where guys are just picking apart little things and making a big deal out of them. Not a word was spoken about Newman getting burned by Ginn but the moment Waynes gets beat everyone is all concerned. Rhodes was beat on a deep ball in preseason. Newman was beat. Why is it that Waynes gets all the criticism?? It's not like this is a regular thing is what I'm saying. He isn't costing us games. It isn't consistent. If he got burned for like 3 deep balls and gave up two touchdowns, yeah it's concerning but my goodness. It was one play. And MIKE ZIMMER out of all people said he thought he did his job all night. How much more reassurance do we possibly need. He had no problem calling out Barr so why wouldn't he call out Waynes? Because he did his job. This is why I don't buy into the criticism. It's like some guys are just foaming at the mouth waiting for him to mess up just so they can call him a bust and say I told you so. He's a solid corner. Is he Rhodes? No. But he's a solid CB. And the fact that Chris cook was brought up in this thread makes me want to throw up. There is no comparison IMO. If you're a coach, do you go after Waynes or Rhodes?? Obviously Waynes. Did coaches go after Revis or Cromartie? Obviously Cromartie. He was a good CB but he wasn't Revis. So the whole Waynes gets picked on thing I don't buy. You have to go after someone. You have to throw the football. So you go after the lesser CB which is Waynes. It's common sense. It doesn't mean he isn't a good CB. Especially when he's not consistently giving up big plays. If anything it's the short stuff. Which is why I don't worry. Rant over

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Fri Sep 15, 2017 8:14 pm

Pondering Her Percy

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Joined: Thu Dec 13, 2012 3:38 amPosts: 4921Location: Watertown, NY

Re: Week 1 reaction thread

mansquatch wrote:

Pondering Her Percy wrote:

Texas Vike wrote:

He's a 39 year old vet in the final chapter of his career, whereas Waynes is a young, pedigreed player on whom we spent a high draft pick. Is it not normal that expectations would be different?

I dont care how old Newman is. He's shown he can do it so why are we giving him a pass? "Oh yeah, Newman got burned but he's old so thats ok". No it doesnt work that way.

I guess what I find funny is we are talking about two plays out of how many where our defense didnt technically "dominate" an elite offense. Are we really that worried? It's not like we just played the Browns. It was Drew Brees and the New Orleans Saints. And neither Trae Waynes or Terrance Newman put our defense/team in any kind of serious jeopardy so I'm not sure why this is even a conversation

Because fans are bored and they are not used to not having anything negative to talk about. Wait until they lose, this board will light up like a Christmas tree.

This couldn't be more true. I'm already dreading that day. I'm flying to Minnesota this Saturday and going to the Tampa game. I've been to two games in Minnesota and haven't seen them lose. Houston last year and Arizona the year AP went for 2000. Knock on wood I hope it's not this game. I'm also going to week 15 vs Cincy this year. Anyone going next weekend? Wouldn't mind meeting up with some fellow board members

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Fri Sep 15, 2017 8:19 pm

808vikingsfan

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Joined: Wed Sep 17, 2014 5:45 pmPosts: 3220Location: Hawaii

Re: Week 1 reaction thread

dead_poet wrote:

808vikingsfan wrote:

For the record, I think Waynes is a star in the making. I really don't worry about him. He limits YAC, plays the run well, anticipates plays well.

Really? Wow. I don't know. I prefer my corners to prevent completions on occasion. Those other things are important, sure, and Waynes is a good run defender. But he kind of sucks at his primary responsibility right now. YMMV. I don't know what gives people such confidence in him. Newman was excellent last year, even if he faded down the stretch. Waynes was unquestionably worse in coverage. Now Newman is declining more and I've seen little growth from Waynes. I understand cutting Waynes some slack, but when opposing passers are completing such a high percentage of passes in his coverage I'm concerned. It was the same thing last year.

Don't get me wrong, I obviously want him to succeed. Having the next No Fly Zone would be awesome. But Waynes is a below average cover corner IMO. I'm hoping for improvement. Or for competition/rotation with Mac and Brock.

I just rewatched the condensed game. Several of the completions against Waynes was during garbage time in the 4th. His one big mistake was the deep ball but he recovered well and the Saints ended up kicking a FG on that drive.

Of course I could be way off. I was one that thought Clemmings would make the team.