Yeah, that's true - you have the right to an opinion. If your opinion happens to be uninformed, misguided, wrong or just ignorant - well, everyone else has the right to tell you so. Free speech goes both ways man.

\"A beginner has as much right and say on the mountain as anybody else.\"
Not actuly. A beginner can say what he/she likes, but has earn respect before anyone will listen.

\"Beginner have much right to their opinion here on this forum as well.\"
True, but beginners should start off by keeping their ignorant traps shut. In this way they won't show how stupid they really are & they have a chance to listen & learn.

Drifter, first start by creating threads in the correct place. This is the \"Gear Questions & Reviews\" section. I really don't see where this posting you have made applies. Perhaps we can set up a folder called \"Drivel\" for ALL of your rantings, uninformed posts and inane questions.

Marshall is right, you have to earn respect. I think your whole 'rope bag' saga really got you off on a bad foot with everyone, especially since a R20 rope bag hardly compares to bailing out on a country route in bad weather and leaving a few hundred bucks worth of gear behind...or the two to three pairs of shoes that climbers go through in a year. You get my 'drift'?! skuze the pun.

just a question: what is the point of your argument? You were going on about bolters who don't bolt the brilliant lines that you have spotted, the 15's. Since you are so hung up on grades etc, honestly, how would you be able to even spot a good line? And then let's not forget the \"Bolts on TM\" question you asked. When the answer was 'No, there are none', you replied that you thought that there were. Since you do not climb trad, on what info do you base this assumption then? Especially when an experienced climber like Justin informs you otherwise. Who are you to question him?

Anyway, dude, do some climbing this weekend...and leave your guidebook at home...on Monday I'm sure you can tell all the bolters about the stellar new 15 you spotted on TM...maybe they'll bolt it for you!

I disagree with your opinion. In my opinion I believe a beginner is equal to any other climber. I also believe it is in the best interest of the sport that beginners are treated as equals and that their opinions are also listened to as they could bring something new to the table.

I have climbed with some beginners I trust more with my life than some people I have climbed with who have been climbing for years and have been climbing high grades.

I don't believe that it is only about how long you have been climbing but also about your personality. I am not saying this to try and be high and almighty there could things about me still that could make me a risk on the mountain still. In the past I have been impatience when multi pitching which can be a problem. We humans can never be free from making errors.

I prefer an climber who has been climbing for many years or a beginner to point out something that I am doing wrong even if I don't like it. There is a saying I believe which says \"A good friend will tell you the truth but then he might not be such a good friend anymore.\"

It is always better I believe two have two people opinions on the mountain and discuss things even if the one person is a beginner.

Its like the story of the airplane pilots, today the co pilot is equal to the pilot(correct me if I am wrong)In the old days the pilot had all the say, thats not the case anymore because of pilot errors happening in the past. The pilot has to get second approval for example to take off from the runway from his co pilot. More than one person checking things could save lives. The airline industry realised that most of the airoplane accidents happening in the past was because of pilot error and so now the pilot has to check things with his co pilot if he like it or not. In this way the airline has improved safety procedures.

I believe in climbing you improve safety by having more than one person checking things. I wouldn't disregard a beginners opinion. I would check things out.

I've taken atleast 50 newbies out over the years. It's fine if they are there to learn. It's the ones that read a climbing book & now think-they-know something about climbing that are so irritating. Beginners love abseiling...thats so irritating.

Drifter's last personality is correct: safety is always open for discussion.
(edit) Correction he has posted again since my post. The above should read second last.

No Drifter, beginner climbers in general do not have equal say in the hills. It's the same reason why insurance companies hike the premiums for younger drivers. Experience = Knowledge. It comes to climbing, it takes years of experiences to have the skill and technique to be safe and effective in the hills. Rather, if you are a beginner, leave your ego and home and rather pack some enthusiasm along. I have seen many so-called climbers nearly die through utter lack of experience and knowledge, and, on correction, their backs go up and the learning stops. I really care less. Just dont say ignorant things like everyone has an equal opinion. A pilot and a co-pilot have equal training and often have flown for as long as one another.

Personally, if I took someone out in the hills with your attitude, it would be the last time you came along. It's arrogant to think you know it all when really, the amount of things that can go wrong are vast. That's why I like sport climbing for beginners. It's safer, more controllable and in general, less can go wrong. If you decide that big mountains and trad are your thing, then you'd better change your attitude when it comes to learning. Sure accidents happen to the best of us, however, dont use this as an example of equality.

Suddenly Guest is the most sensible person on the forum & we have new schizophrenic, lame ass contributor who writes the most unintelligable, contradictory & simply doff comments, littering the forum. Even when he alters his posts they still don't make sense. To his credit though he does sound like he is just being defensive because he is clueless.

I doubt Justin could dream up such a colourful & irritating character- so it begs the question if this is all for real.

Oh by the way, Drifter, I am referring to you- just in case you didn't pick that up. A bit harsh maybe, but you certainly need to think twice before posting more nonsense. Legitimate queries will be treated with the respect they deserve, I am sure- everyone on the forum does try to help when you actually post sensible queries. I understand English is not your first language, but then just aim for clarity.

Possibly you could prefix your posts with a capital d- like this: \"D-How to rope jump with a clothesline\".

That way all the people who want to avoid your posts because they get all wound up can just avoid them & the helpful people can adress them.

Otherwise just go climb with some experienced climbers & learn the right stuff.

I think Drifter is actually for real! I know, it seems so hard to believe, but I think his real name is John, and he lives in CPT. He must have a LOT of time on his hands. It's really a pity that he doesnt use this to read books on climbing, and to actually go climbing.

I doubt Justin could dream up such a colourful & irritating character- so it begs the question if this is all for real.

Yeah, he'd be too busy worrying about stepping on someones toes and being un-PC!

But I had to tone down my posts a bit because crybaby Justin was getting his panties in a knot about \"The Guest\" offending people. I also prefer flaming people and oh boy I love it when people call me names and send me hateful PM's, which I'm still up for, so please, send away...but I'd hate to offend the big baby Justin and in his own pathetic words \"One more booboo, and you're gone\".

So, Justy wusty, I pwomise I'll twy my best not to make a booboo. We don't wanna have you cwying big cwocadile tears now.

he he.

Drifter, you seem quiet now. Is it because your medication has perhaps kicked in already?

I was also wondering who this \"new guest\" was, judging from his latest well spoken (public) post's..... However, judging from the PM from guest I can confirm that he is still trying to be provoking as always.... or maybe he has a personal vendetta against me...

Possibly you could prefix your posts with a capital d- like this: \"D-How to rope jump with a clothesline\".

That way all the people who want to avoid your posts because they get all wound up can just avoid them & the helpful people can adress them.