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Re: What the heck is wrong with you people?

Why do you think Indianapolis being bigger than Miami has anything to do with this....

Several posters, including the OP, said that a reason to temper expectations was because we are a small market team. Still others referenced it and have done so in the past by saying that Indy just can't acquire stars.

Honestly, that was the least important part of my post though. (After the edit, which you may not have caught)

Re: What the heck is wrong with you people?

This team has been to the finals one time and I think the ECF twice or three times it its history.

Dude please brush up on your Pacers history.

3 ABA championships. A long time ago, I know, but it happened.SIX ECF appearances. That's right, six - in one decade!. We made the ECF in 94, 95, 98, 99, 2000, and 2004. And 2004 was an almost entirely rebuilt team from the previous ones.One Finals appearance. We went 6 games vs. Shaq and Kobe in the Finals. Nothing to be ashamed of for sure.

We really were a contender in the 90s folks. We weren't QUITE good enough to beat the Jordan Bulls or the Shaq/Kobe Lakers. But neither were a lot of other really good teams - the Knicks, Jazz, Sonics, Suns, Kings etc. We were right there with the top teams. In fact in 98 I think we would have won it if not for the LJ 4-point play.

Just saying. Getting a championship here would be really really tough but it can be done.

Several posters, including the OP, said that a reason to temper expectations was because we are a small market team. Still others referenced it and have done so in the past by saying that Indy just can't acquire stars.

Honestly, that was the least important part of my post though. (After the edit, which you may not have caught)

Compared to Miami, indy is a small market. That was my point. The city itself is bigger, but the market size is much smaller.

It wasn't about being the team everyone loved, it was about beating the teams everyone else loved.

Okay, Miami's market is bigger. But then you have Salt Lake City, San Antonio, and OKC that are all successful teams or previously successful teams that are all smaller than Indianpolis' market. And there are some similarly sized areas as well. My point wasn't that Miami is smaller, thus we are in a better position. My point was that size doesn't matter as much as some make it out to be, and if you're going to complain about our ability to build a great team it shouldn't be "We would be better if we were bigger." Organizations can build great teams multiple ways, regardless of whether or not they have all-time greats on their team. It is somewhat of a limiting constraint, but the results shouldn't be tempered because of that restraint because Indiana and other "small markets" have had great success over the history of the league.

Re: What the heck is wrong with you people?

As for the OP's comment...

I post here much less than I used to (though more than I did during the OB years). There is definitely a lot more knee-jerk reaction stuff than there was in years' past (though there is always some of that) I didn't even come here for a couple weeks toward the beginning of the season - half the board thought we should fire the coach and blow up the team 5 games into the season.

From the perspective of someone who has been following the team for 25 years or so it's pretty silly to read that kind of stuff after a few bad games or after a slow start to a season.

At the risk of sounding like an old crotchety dude I wonder how much of it has to do with how younger fans experience the NBA these days - fantasy sports, video games, etc. make it feel like every player is interchangable and that we can wheel and deal and make changes on the fly whenever we feel like it. The reality is that putting a good NBA team together requires patience and discipline, ESPECIALLY in a small market that has a tough time attracting free agents. Heck just watching an entire 82+ game season warrants some patience, doesn't it?

But people don't want to hear about that. They want results NOW, or else. So you have the knee-jerk reactions that you're referring to.

Finally, as someone else mentioned if you don't like reading that stuff it than ignoring a few key posters is VERY helpful (I'll let you figure out who those guys are) - really makes the board a lot more readable, at least for me.

3 ABA championships. A long time ago, I know, but it happened.SIX ECF appearances. That's right, six - in one decade!. We made the ECF in 94, 95, 98, 99, 2000, and 2004. And 2004 was an almost entirely rebuilt team from the previous ones.One Finals appearance. We went 6 games vs. Shaq and Kobe in the Finals. Nothing to be ashamed of for sure.

We really were a contender in the 90s folks. We weren't QUITE good enough to beat the Jordan Bulls or the Shaq/Kobe Lakers. But neither were a lot of other really good teams - the Knicks, Jazz, Sonics, Suns, Kings etc. We were right there with the top teams. In fact in 98 I think we would have won it if not for the LJ 4-point play.

Just saying. Getting a championship here would be really really tough but it can be done.

You mean 99.

And the pacers defense in 1999 was pretty bad. LJ or not, they were not stopping sprewell, Houston and Camby in that series.

It wasn't about being the team everyone loved, it was about beating the teams everyone else loved.

Re: What the heck is wrong with you people?

Okay, Miami's market is bigger. But then you have Salt Lake City, San Antonio, and OKC that are all successful teams or previously successful teams that are all smaller than Indianpolis' market. And there are some similarly sized areas as well. My point wasn't that Miami is smaller, thus we are in a better position. My point was that size doesn't matter as much as some make it out to be, and if you're going to complain about our ability to build a great team it shouldn't be "We would be better if we were bigger." Organizations can build great teams multiple ways, regardless of whether or not they have all-time greats on their team. It is somewhat of a limiting constraint, but the results shouldn't be tempered because of that restraint because Indiana and other "small markets" have had great success over the history of the league.

Yeah really I was just correcting you on the Miami/Indy comparison. I agree with a lot of you're saying, although market size/location IS a pretty big deal when it comes to free agency. You can still put a good team together obviously (see my above comments) but you have to go about it differently in a small "boring" market like Indy.

Re: What the heck is wrong with you people?

Size and especially location and reputation certainly does matter. Chicago, Miami, LA, Boston and NY have major advantages over most other teams. San Antonio has been extremely fortunate bordering on amazing luck...while at the same time being a franchise ran better than most. OKC has done nothing and just lost Harden. Utah has done nothing. Indiana has never won it.

In 5 years, OKC may loose Westbrook or Durant like the Magic lost Shaq and Howard...and the Cavs lost LeBron. That's how the ball in the NBA bounces.

Re: What the heck is wrong with you people?

The pacers won game 4, but Houston, sprewell and Camby averaged about 70 ppg the final 2 games and that was it. The LJ play wasn't this crushing series winner that people remember it for.

Yeah fair enough, thanks. I still have 98 though, when we were 3-4 minutes away from taking out the Bulls in 7. We could have won that year too IMO. Even Jordan said we were the team to beat when he retired.

My point is we've been close. Very close a couple of times actually. Not enough to win of course , but enough for me to push back against the sentiment that the Pacers can't win a championship because of the small market. Is it harder, yes. Is it impossible, no.

Re: What the heck is wrong with you people?

Okay, Miami's market is bigger. But then you have Salt Lake City, San Antonio, and OKC that are all successful teams or previously successful teams that are all smaller than Indianpolis' market. And there are some similarly sized areas as well. My point wasn't that Miami is smaller, thus we are in a better position. My point was that size doesn't matter as much as some make it out to be, and if you're going to complain about our ability to build a great team it shouldn't be "We would be better if we were bigger." Organizations can build great teams multiple ways, regardless of whether or not they have all-time greats on their team. It is somewhat of a limiting constraint, but the results shouldn't be tempered because of that restraint because Indiana and other "small markets" have had great success over the history of the league.

San Antonio has been "The" small market team, period.

Utah hasn't been very good for awhile, losing D-Will because they were a small market.

OKC had what, 3 picks in the top 4? One of those being Durant, an absolute monster. That helps counteract the small market thing.

And thanks to K-Stat for pointing out "Big Market" and "Small Market" isn't based on the size of the city.

Re: What the heck is wrong with you people?

Size and especially location and reputation certainly does matter. Chicago, Miami, LA, Boston and NY have major advantages over most other teams. San Antonio has been extremely fortunate bordering on amazing luck...while at the same time being a franchise ran better than most. OKC has done nothing and just lost Harden. Utah has done nothing. Indiana has never won it.

In 5 years, OKC may loose Westbrook or Durant like the Magic lost Shaq and Howard...and the Cavs lost LeBron. That's how the ball in the NBA bounces.

Between 1983 and 2010, Utah had 2 losing seasons. Out of 27 possible years. They missed the playoffs only 3 times. They lost in the second round 8 times. They lost in the conference finals four times. They made it to the finals twice, though they didn't win.

They have never won the championship, but saying they have never done anything is stupid.

Re: What the heck is wrong with you people?

Utah hasn't been very good for awhile, losing D-Will because they were a small market.

OKC had what, 3 picks in the top 4? One of those being Durant, an absolute monster. That helps counteract the small market thing.

And thanks to K-Stat for pointing out "Big Market" and "Small Market" isn't based on the size of the city.

They traded D-Will with a full year plus change left on his contract. They didn't have to trade him, and they would have had the same advantage that NJ had in keeping him. The extra, guaranteed maximum salaried year. They didn't lose him because they were a small market team. They lost him because they panicked.

Any team can go about rebuilding the way OKC did if they choose to. That doesn't rule them out of being a small market team. And keep in mind Portland could have taken Durant had they chosen to.

Utah made the right move dealing deron Williams. He absolutely wanted out, and they landed multiple top 5 picks in return.
Make no mistake, though. He wasn't happy in Utah and they weren't going anywhere with him.

It wasn't about being the team everyone loved, it was about beating the teams everyone else loved.

Re: What the heck is wrong with you people?

So we'll draft 2 hall of fame centers, where their careers overlap by up to five years, erase everyone's advanced scouting knowledge since the time Ginobili was scouted so we can get a fantastic shooting guard with a late 2nd round pick, and then get a really good PG with the 28th pick. Let's do it!!

Haha well notice I said "everything we can do."

By that I mean draft intelligently almost every year (no one is perfect) and try to have a top-5 coach. Yeah that is a lot to ask but at least it can be done, unlike trading for Dwight Howard or even Steve Nash.

Re: What the heck is wrong with you people?

Between 1983 and 2010, Utah had 2 losing seasons. Out of 27 possible years. They missed the playoffs only 3 times. They lost in the second round 8 times. They lost in the conference finals four times. They made it to the finals twice, though they didn't win.

They have never won the championship, but saying they have never done anything is stupid.

Being a small market means more now than it used to. Back then most good didn't change teams very often, and players cared less about where they played. Players now are pickier about where they play, and are less loyal to the teams who draft them. So when you have players like Stockton and Malone 95% of their careers you are going to have a good team for a long time. Kind of like have Robinson then Duncan for their whole careers have allowed the Spurs to continue to be a great team. If Duncan didn't stay in SA I can guarantee that they would not be the model example of a small market team. Still in each case they did it mostly by drafting and developing players, not by signing and trading for superstars like teams such as the Lakers, Celtics and Heat did.

Re: What the heck is wrong with you people?

Between 1983 and 2010, Utah had 2 losing seasons. Out of 27 possible years. They missed the playoffs only 3 times. They lost in the second round 8 times. They lost in the conference finals four times. They made it to the finals twice, though they didn't win.

They have never won the championship, but saying they have never done anything is stupid.

Ask Larry Bird. Until you win a championship, you haven't done anything. Sure, the Jazz were good with Stockton and Malone. But that's about where things top out. The bigger markets have had far more dominant teams.

Ask Larry Bird. Until you win a championship, you haven't done anything. Sure, the Jazz were good with Stockton and Malone. But that's about where things top out. The bigger markets have had far more dominant teams.

Larry bird doesn't dictate my expectations.

OKC has a chance to be the dominant team of this decade, the way San Antonio was the dominant team (along with LA) of the last decade.

It's tougher in a smaller market, but people too often confuse tougher with impossible.

Last edited by Kstat; 12-09-2012 at 06:11 PM.

It wasn't about being the team everyone loved, it was about beating the teams everyone else loved.