My Torii is sold and long gone, but I recently discovered the cheap Shuguang rectifier, which is a Western Electric 274B clone, in my new amp (Melody AN211) and I'm very impressed with it. It piqued my curiosity as to what it could have done for my Torii... I bet things could be been voiced really nicely with them in play.

Steve sent me one of the Valve Art 274Bs (probably Shuagang sourced) with my CSP2+. I didn't put a lot of hours on it but I wasn't really happy with the sound in the preamp, too big and bold, didn't seem realistic to me with my reference recordings (recordings of bands I played in and recorded in my then garage apartment; well-recorded selections of acoustic instruments) and I went back to the 5Y3GT type for that preamp. I didn't have two, and haven't tried them in the Toriis.

I tried Valve Art 274Bs in my SE34I.2, and ended up with NOS 50's RCA...can't remember what it was about the 274B that I did not like as well. Like Lon, I think we are talking about the same tube? The Valve Art looks just like the Shuguang and is cheap. I have not tried them in the Torii. Listening with them now to Shakuhachi flute and they sound open, rich, and atmospheric, but this record has a hard time sounding bad.

Found Steve's thoughts on the 274B and his amps from July. Doesn't mention the Torii specifically but it would seem to apply. For what it's worth decided to drop my 2 Valve Art 274B's in the Torii this morning after this thread started and so far am really liking the sound. Big, full, and yes lush:

Decware amps typically use between 33 ~ 47uf caps as the first section of the power supply filter after the rectifier tube.

In the case of the SE34I.3 the value is 47uf.

So far all the 274B's I've looked at ( and I haven't looked at all of them ) would like to see less than 10uf as the first section of the power supply filter. Going beyond the value could cause flashing upon startup. That said, many people ignore the warning and use it anyway, claiming the sound is worth the potentially short-lived tube.

Awesome to hear, Steve! It is cool to see you're having good results with my suspicion... Kinda makes me want to buy an inexpensive Decware amp to revisit with that rectifier.

In my Melody AN211 the improvements I noted were in terms of tonal beauty, depth, dimensionality, microdetail and microdynamic shading--it just got luster, more beautiful and more emotional for me. Bass impact could have taken a step back, but it is already great with my Zu Definition speakers.

I was thinking if those attributes could have been matted to the Torii I used to have, that would have made things really special. It wasn't a subtle difference to me.

Sounds like Steve is actually warning against 274B's in his amps(although not the pre's if he's shipping them with the CSP2+). While they do sound good in my Torii this morning I really don't want to risk them failing and taking the power supply with them. Been there done that. So unless I head definitively from Steve that using them in the Torii is ok I'm going to stick with my Tung Sol and RCA 5U4's.

No flashing, but as it's been said, they can work for awhile and then potential disaster depending on what kind of caps are being used. I liked the smoking analogy in the thread that you provided the link for. So unless Steve says there is no problem with using them I'm not going to risk it. You would think that if he didn't specify in the manual that you could use them that alone kinda tells it like it is. But we'll see.

I am trying them now and liking them also. With the tube set I have in, first impressions are good though not earth shaking. They seem big but open...classic sounding in their "tubey" presentation...liquid and smooth, with clarity, but also nice body across the spectrum.

It has been a long time, so I can't say for sure why I got them for the SE34I.2, but it seems I would have been chicken to try them without knowing they would not hurt the amp.

Steve's description for the SE34I.3 indicated to me not that they might blow the power supply section, but that the tubes might ware out fast.

Maybe the Decware penchant for seriously overbuilt power supply components will allow this tube as part of our tube play.

Hope you're right Will and I don't care about blowing a few of the 274(mine are Valve Art, not Shuguang...different?) because at $15 per I really don't expect much but just don't want risk anything else being affected so until I hear from Steve gonna stick with the Tung Sol 54UG's I have lying around here and be more than satisfied.

FWIW I haven't completely gone the conservative route. Just got in a shipment of Russian 1957 5c3s, another 5U4 sub and stuck those in. Lovely. Also big and bold. They came in with a pair of 1961 6n1p-v's that I picked up at the same time because of Lon's endorsement of that variety. Everything sounds great but needless to say hard to get the Torii to sound anything but these days.

The danger with any rectifier tube is most present during startup when the power switch is first turned on as evident by arcing inside the tube that you can clearly see. Often an arc inside the tube will blow the fuse.

The expensive 274B's out there do not recommend us in amplifiers with more than 8 uf caps so that is why I have never been able to recommend them even though many customers use them anyway.

These ValveArt tubes do not exhibit the problem and my theory is that they are really just the same 5U4's that we've always used from Sugang, but just in a fatter bottle... I can tell no difference other than the additional getter at the base.

I am shipping the tubes with our new SuperZen's so if there is a problem I'll find out within 90 days.

I just meant the 5U4Gs that Steve was referencing that he had been sending with the amps that he felt were similar to the Valve Art 274B, the latter being he surmised the same works in a bigger bottle. I never liked the rectifiers shipped with the amps, I always replace them, usually with RCA 5U4Gs. I generally prefer straight shoulder ones, but these from tgarden are different, work very well with the JJ 6CA7s.

My order was in August 20, so I have time on the clock yet. Though looking at the pending orders, there are less than earlier this year and maybe it will be a bit shorter. . . but my guess is six more weeks or more.

Interested in Steve's comments, I looked carefully at the Valve Art/Shuguang 274Bs I have, and they look a lot like the Shuguang 5U4G to me too. Also, they are not arcing at all after a few days of use. They seem to light up at the same pace and in the same way as the 5U4Gs.

Then I decided to test the sound, especially since I, like Lon, did not particularly like the Ruby/Shuguang 5U4Gs, especially compared to many NOS 5U4GB and STs.

Alternately, the 5U4Gs sound like they are trying to do all the same stuff, but can't quite get there... making them sound leaner, edgier, less spacious, less balanced, and subsequently, they are less convincing and restricted/contracted feeling by comparison.

All in all the balance of the 274Bs is very good with this setup and this pair, and I too find them convincing and engaging.

Clearly with the copies I have, if all else is equal between these 5U4G and "274B", the big bottle and the extra getter make an OK tube a really good one.

It does not surprise me that you did not like the 274B in your CSP2+ if you prefer a 5Y3GT. I have some nice 5Y3GTs and they are generally distinctly more low key than a 5U4G in my Torii...They can be rich and sweet, but less push. I used to use them to reduce bass and create a bit more smoothness and spaciousness, but always missed the dynamics and "bite" the 5U4Gs or 5AR4s gave by comparison. So if the CSP2+ is great in your setup with the 5Y3GT you are using, I would think any 5U4 might be a bit big and pushy. I wonder...have you checked that out.

Well after reading Steve's comments stuck them back in as we'll. The Russian 5c3S are fantastic but the bottom end is almost too much. The 274B gives me a more natural even tone while not losing any of the grandness of the Russian tube. And yeah they do look swell. Fun times.

will, I've tried about five different 5U4G tubes in my CSP2+ and I just don't feel that the tonality is accurate. Yeah they're punchy but not balanced for my sources and accompanying tubes. Funny, I get plenty of dynamics with the one RCA 5Y3GT that I favor, perhaps that is coming form source components (the Rega is especially dynamic, one reason I spin as much vinyl as digital music discs lately). At least with the signal and driver tubes I have in place, and I'm not inclined to roll those.

I'm happy with my tube sets now, and I'm really loathe to go too far back into tube-rolling, so I'll stick with the rectifiers I now have in my components. May be searching for the right 5Y3GT for my upcoming ZP3 if those on hand don't quite "have it". . . .

That makes sense Lon. I was thinking that it may not have been the 274B per se, but maybe the 5U4 tube type for your CSP2+ preferences. In my Torii the 5Y3GTs are nice and dynamic feeling, especially in midrange...but they seem "softer" throughout, less drive than 5U4s in general, and balanced more for the midrange and highs than for bass power (at least in my Torii). It sounds to me like it may be a notching back on the power in sort of an equal way across the spectrum creating a bit less bass, less bite, but with a really exciting sense of midrange openness that is cradled in rich and warm edges...spacious, but rich and smooth. I really like them actually, both a 1960 RCA and and early 50s Heinz and Kaufman labeled Bendix 6106/5Y3WGTA (brown base). I probably prefer the latter... richer and more atmospheric. But the RCA is really good too. I can see how they might be really good in a pre.

I don't know, my system is sounding so good lately, rectifier rolling choices removed, I could be really happy with any one of many rectifiers I have...but as is, rectifiers and the power VRs are my most rolled tubes (often together).

Well, I just don't seem to hear the same things with the 274B in the CSP2+ that others seem to. Big and bold, but not at all lush, rather washed out sound with a bit of unnatural soundstaging and imaging. Clean, scrubbed sounding. Just not interesting to me.

I just don't do much tube-rolling, it's very hard to find the right tube set for my purpose of getting as many of my recordings to sound "natural" and real as possible, and I think I'm close enough and I'm just sitting pretty.

I guess this is what can make a joint listening experience like Decfest a good time. I would love to sit in a room with you guys and roll different tubes and listen to different music and get to hear what preferences people have instead of just reading about it. Because at the end of the day it all comes down to personal preference. I just rolled in a pair of 1952 JAN RCA 5Y3GT's that I picked up a month ago. They were really going to be for rolling in the CSP2 which is now back full time in the system, and for good. The synergy between it and the Torii is just too overpowering to ignore. Anyway, I wanted to play with different 5Y3's in the CSP2 since that's the tube that Steve voiced it with. Well, ended up liking a Phillips 5R4GY rec that I picked up from Upscale Audio better in it, and after this recent discussion threw the 5Y3's in the Torii. Like it alot for the same reasons that Will doesn't care for it. Very sweet and great midrange, but yes less bottom than the 5U4's or 274B that I've had in there recently. And you know what? That's better for my system and my ears because frankly the bottom was too big in my room. Even cutting back on the bass on the Torii. So for the moment these NOS 5Y3's seem to be doing the trick FOR ME. I guess the greatest value of these threads is hearing what certain qualities various tubes exhibit in others systems, good or bad, which then helps me determine if it would be at least worth a shot to try them myself.

Yes it is all synchronicity...room, gear, cables, tubes. With specific taste choices and so many recording qualities to work with, I suspect most of us have a pretty narrow range of acceptability in terms of changes that fit synergy needs, the differences being the subtitles of what we each find to be synergy within our given rooms, gear and and tastes.

Like Lon's preference for 5Y3GT in the CSP2+, I prefer 12AT7s (very specific ones) over 12AU7s in the Zstage, but many prefer the 12UA7. The 12AU7 can sound really good to me in the Zstage, but then I would have to play with the Torii tube set to coax the 12AU7 into working in my personal range of musical excitement. Or, if I make a notable rectifier change in the Torii, like going from a 5U4 I really love, to a 5Y3GT, I would need to mess around with the other tubes to get into my musical excitement range.

BTW sberger, this is why I got 5Y3GTs in the first place, to tame the bass of the Torii in my room and I used them and 5AR4s a lot. But after doing more room treatments, getting a better source, and introducing PureMusic's inline EQ to tune out specific bass issues, the 5U4s seem to have risen back to the top for me for the most part. But I could easily make the 5Y3GT work with a little tube play. They are sweet.

I think in retrospect, my optimized system/room synergy was sort of organically "designed" to include the flexibility of tube set shifts. But my comfort/excitement range for what creates an engaging and exciting musical experience (while allowing all the stuff I listen to sound good), it too is pretty narrow.

I think all my tube set choices exhibit subtle variations of the same fundamental sound qualities specific to my personal sense of "real." But within that there are endless subtle variations (or not so subtle with "super ears" on) that I find very enjoyable. But then, I am a died in the wool lover of shaking up the musical experience with tube rolling. Makes it new and fresh for me, regularly awakening new excitement.

Glad to hear that sberger I just ordered the same Phillips from Upscale and will have them in the torii mon afternoon. Was planning on getting an extra one to tube roll when my csp2+ comes in a month or so. Put telefunken 7dj8's in the torii on suggestion from Kev at Upscale and haven't looked back.

They really are an incredible tube, one that I'm sure I'll be returning to, as I will the 274B. I don't know if I will ever find the "perfect" solution because frankly I don't know if I'm looking for one. Nice to be able to change sound as I feel like it, and within literally seconds. Love that about the Decware stuff.

But, I knew right away I did not like the Ruby rectifiers that came with the Torii. Dry and brittle. So I found some nice 1950's RCA 5U4G-STs. Much more what I was looking for, but still lacking the texture and depth I knew was missing. I too, was looking for that 'splash of seduction', Gopher was looking for. I tried the Shugang Treasures 6AC7's but that was not the answer. Tried various input tubes, but still not there. However, the humble 61NP-EV's brought me pretty close!

Then I decided to play with more rectifiers. I found some rare RCA made military 5R4GY's (twin bottom getters). Closer yet. Then some Raytheon 5UGB's for fun.

I read an old post on Audiocirce about the 1957 Svetlanas and it seemed to be what I was looking for. My wife and I can still remember vividly the difference. We spent a whole day going back and forth with all the previous tubes and the difference was night and day. Like Fred (Gopher) I am a texture junkie! I want gobs of texture, emotion and musicality except I don't want to sacrifice detail or transparency. I want my cake and eat it too! In fact, I bought the Zu Superfly's on Fred's recommendation to pair with the Torii with the custom 16 ohm taps. I was actually sad to hear him sell the superflys and then the Torii! However, I felt a little of what he was experiencing with both super revealing speakers and amp. The combo can sound a bit sterile. The Zu's are made to match with warmer sounding set amps in mind. The Svetlanas and 61NP-EVs in the Torii with some RCA OA3's and OC2's are a perfect match. Still revealing, but with more layers of texture and emotion. Especially with male vocals.

Keep in mind I also have V-Caps in my Torii and use a very transparent Dac direct with no preamp. My tube tastes generally follow Lon's.

Lately, I have found bliss by improving the front end with adding an Audiophilleo and PurePower battery option to my Anedio D2 dac. The sweet spot is now my entire 3 seater sofa. So organic and holographic. I feel now I am finally feeding the Torri a source it deserves to show its magic. This recent change also opened my eyes to appreciate the organic, effortless flowing beauty of Hi Rez music. I was a doubter, but now am a believer!

Thanks for your excellent coverage of the Rectifiers and system. This makes your previous comment make sense to me. The reason I was wondering though was that the 57 Winged Cs sound good here, but are a little lacking for me, but my HR-Ones (and perhaps room) are probably warmer than your Zus and room. So there lies the question. I always like to compare tubes to tubes rather than expressing just preferences for this reason. Makes the info easier to apply to various rooms and systems.

So is it tube tastes, or is it system/room defining tube tastes, or something in between. Your explanation of what you are after sounds pretty much like I work toward.

The 5Y3GT may be just right with your system. The texture thing is really nice with them here. If you want I can try to compare characteristics of the Shuguang 274B, the 57 Winged C, and the two 5Y3s I have. I am guessing the 274B may not be for you.

orangecrush, I am using a Tranquility DAC with their less expensive USB cable, PI Audio's better power cable, AQVOX USB power supply, and DIY silver ICs from VHAudio's recipe. I love the DACs NOS 44.1 chip. They say it sounds great with hi-rez, but I could not say from experience.

I was just listening with my 55 Winged C Rectifiers...so it may not be accurate compared to your 57s. Sorry I missed it earlier saying I had 57 Winged C Rectifiers. The other tubes are Amperex OA3, Raytheon OC2, Zaerix labelled PCC88 (looks Russian), JJ6CA7.

In my system they are nice and warm but a little restricted (perhaps a little veiled/less spacious) to me...The bass is a bit flabby with these tubes, but sounds pretty real otherwise. They sound good, and I could likely tube roll to get it sounding really good, but with this set, I hear this tube in my system and my objective is not to be able to identify a tube in the sound. If my system/room were more toward the bright, and less bassy, I think I would still find these a little restricted, but that could be just me.

These are warm in the way I like warmth... no detail loss. The tube plays less bass, but it sounds authentic and good to me...solid, fresh, deep. They have very good balance, sweet midrange without affect...just sounds real... really good textures (harmonics and micro details).

The 60 RCA 5Y3GT, by comparison, still has a very nice midrange with good texture, but is a little less balanced in my system having a sloppier bass, less micro detail, and less high extension. They may be good with your speakers though, the bass and "warmth" different, but more similar to my Winged Cs...could be the Bendix are a little too clean for you....I can't say, but what a well made and even sounding tube, doing all the stuff it does exceptionally.

The Valve Art 274B are well balanced, open, really good texture, big in a very spacious way, and more push than any of the above but without being in your face. The excellent ambient information and spaciousness, with a slight warmth, and great texture, brings pleasantly rich to mind for me. I find them very detailed but not harsh. Compared to my Russian tubes, they may be too bright in your system. They sound great here.

Hope this ramble helps. This is not easy. And remember, my system/room does tend to bass, and though I have tuned it out for the most part, I have kept it close to the edge liking deep but authentic, tightish bass.

Yes, so hard to say how the tubes will translate to your system, but hopefully my attempts at comparison tube to tube will give a sense of the differences in them, at least pointing to what you could expect in your system. My speakers/system/room seem relatively tolerant of various tube signatures, especially since I have a nice selection of all the tube types, so synergy can happen pretty easily.

I did notice a difference with the AQVOX, bringing out some space and micro detail from these already excellent qualities in the Tranquility. Perhaps too much on first impressions, but I tuned it in to the system and really like it finally. Being a texture freak too, and loving ambient accuracy close and far, and the associated sense of soundstage density and dispersion that can come from excellent micro detail and ambient information...it can bring such a nice sense of the instrument in this room.

I wonder if your DAC has somehow isolated the USB power internally, or maybe the computer not being in your equation makes a difference. I was surprised at the difference in mine (at least in serious listening mode), especially since the DAC was sooo good at these things to start with. This is part of why the Tranquility is so stripped down and fundamental parts-wise, the makers having ruled out async and upsampling as causing sound issues.

Just a point of clarification--I didn't sell the Zu/Torii combination because I felt it to be sterile, I was having major room issues which I couldn't cure at the time. I came home from work one day to find my wife had re-organized the living room in a more baby-friendly manner and I couldn't get my Superflys to give me their magic in that configuration. I tried for months and finally a friend helped me re-nail it and I was on cloud 9....

Then we re-arranged the room a bit more as my son got more mobile and I lost it. Out of frustration I sold the Zu speakers and bought Von Schweikert VR-33s which had an efficiency rating of 90db (so I could keep the Torii) and could be placed against a wall with little thought going into placement... Despite seeming OK on paper Torii was a miserable match to it and led to me selling it.

One other point--I wasn't a big fan of the Torii by itself. I think it really shined when I used it as a power amp behind an Audion Premier preamplifier.

---

As for the nano-tech drivers, they're very impressive. I've heard them in a Superfly (totally different speaker!) Omen Defs, Def 4s and in my own upgraded Definition 2s and they're just really transparent, nimble, resolved and expressive while maintaining Zu's tone density and meatiness.

The downside is that they will highlight fault in your chain. Having the stock 211 power tubes in my amp for example left my system almost unlistenable--getting it right elevated it to mesmerizing....

Received my Shugang 274B Preffered Series today fom TubeStore. Right out of the box I am impressed. I have to agree with Gopher and Will. Also, SBerger is dead on, they have everything I like in the 1950's Russian Svetlanas, but just more. The bass is not less, just more tight, less muddy, with a bit more air and that euphoric quality that is very seductive. Yet, all the detail is still there. Texture which the Russian tubes excel in, is even better. Very nice. How many hours to wait for a more accurate impression?

Btw, I hear no similarality with the stock ruby, which I also do not like.

Edit: My wife and I did some serious listening and comparisons today. The Svetlanas have slightly more attack and impact which we like, but that comes at the expense of midrange vocals. The 274B favor midrange, and a sweet midrange it is. Vocals are more prominent. We like both, but so far the 274B is really attractive.

All the praise you folk are singing about this tube made me order another so that I could try them in the Torii Mk III. Well, I sure don't like one in the CSP2+ but I am enjoying them at the moment in the Torii. I miss a bit of warmth that the RCA 5U4Gs have been giving me, but so far I like them otherwise quite well. Only have a few hours on them.

I may put the RCAs back in tomorrow when the ZP3 arrives just for the "familiarity factor."

EDIT: to add: trying to get used to the bigger image and sound stage, that's my one hurdle with these tubes in the Torii after 12 hours. It could be a bit darker, but it's really the seeming exaggeration of the size of things that is getting to me. We'll see. Impressive tubes for the price.

I changed OC2 tubes to my RCA pair which has helped reign in the somewhat excessive "wetness". . . .