DrBeatle said
^yes, but he was also an incredibly strong willed and stubborn guy who seemed to completely lose that bit of his personality *ONLY* around her, from day 1, and I still scratch my head all these years later as to why she and she alone produced that effect in him?

Because she was like that too? It's a question that I've asked myself a lot and I've come to the conclusion that John was in awe of women who knew their own mind, were independent etc, it's what he'd grown up with, so Yoko was exactly like his aunts, mother..., exactly what he wanted and thought he needed. That's how I see it. I wonder if Yoko really was good for him though.

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12 December 20126.56pm

DrBeatle

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fabfouremily said

DrBeatle said
^yes, but he was also an incredibly strong willed and stubborn guy who seemed to completely lose that bit of his personality *ONLY* around her, from day 1, and I still scratch my head all these years later as to why she and she alone produced that effect in him?

Because she was like that too? It's a question that I've asked myself a lot and I've come to the conclusion that John was in awe of women who knew their own mind, were independent etc, it's what he'd grown up with, so Yoko was exactly like his aunts, mother..., exactly what he wanted and thought he needed. That's how I see it. I wonder if Yoko really was good for him though.

I see your reasoning, but John was always bucking Mimi's authority, as much as he loved her, and even though they were both strong-willed, that doesn't make sense why he'd completely subvert his own stubborness in Yoko's presence. I'm much like John in a lot of ways (loud-mouthed, stubborn, indepenedent, etc) and I love and respect my mom, grandmothers, aunts, and wife, but my wife is a lot like me and neither of us is submissive to the other. For some reason, Yoko made John into a submissive puddle of mush but he was only like that with her. Very odd.

"I know you, you know me; one thing I can tell you is you got to be free!"

John fell in love with a woman who was very different from most girls who would fawn over him and offer nothing mentally challenging. She was very independant and off the wall in her ideas and that must have held a fascination to John who was bored senseless and relying on drugs as escapism. Also supposedly Yoko knew nothing about the Beatles so that may have held some amazement for John, well that was the party line thrown out in interviews with them both but it may be be another sugarlump added to their story.

"I told you everything I could about me, Told you everything I could" ('Before Believing' - Emmylou Harris)

"Don't make your love suffer insecurities; Trade the baggage of "self" to set another one free" ('Paper Skin' - Kendall Payne)

12 December 20127.08pm

DrBeatle

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^Good points. I always wondered why John felt he couldn't have The Beatles *and* Yoko. There's the famous quote from Paul where he said once John met Yoko, he had to "clear the decks" and get rid of The Beatles in his life so he could move on to his life with Yoko. Wonder why he felt they couldn't co-exist?

"I know you, you know me; one thing I can tell you is you got to be free!"

Thanks for sharing the interview text, Linde. I had not read much from Mo before. It was cool hearing about these things from her persective.

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12 December 20128.48pm

meanmistermustard

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The other thing is we cant help who we fall in love with. Its a very powerful emotion and John wouldnt be the first person who people look at and wonder why he loved X and not Z.

You wouldnt have to look very hard without finding someone and wonder "why the hell is he/she with him/her? What are they thinking? S/he's a total prat and s/he could do so much better".

I don't mean that disparagingly to Yoko, just that the heart wants what the heart wants and regardless of what folk think John really did love Yoko and Yoko did love John.

"I told you everything I could about me, Told you everything I could" ('Before Believing' - Emmylou Harris)

"Don't make your love suffer insecurities; Trade the baggage of "self" to set another one free" ('Paper Skin' - Kendall Payne)

12 December 20128.53pm

DrBeatle

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meanmistermustard said
The other thing is we cant help who we fall in love with. Its a very powerful emotion and John wouldnt be the first person who people look at and wonder why he loved X and not Z.

You wouldnt have to look very hard without finding someone and wonder "why the hell is he/she with him/her? What are they thinking? S/he's a total prat and s/he could do so much better".

I don't mean that disparagingly to Yoko, just that the heart wants what the heart wants and regardless of what folk think John really did love Yoko and Yoko did love John.

Well said. I have been reading in various places lately though that they were amicably discussing a divorce in '74 (during the earlier part of the Lost Weekend) and that paperwork was drawn up but that A) Yoko wanted a party to celebrate it while John wanted to do it quietly and B) Yoko knew the PR hit she'd take would be huge. Supposedly they were on rocky ground in the late '70s and into '80, and there are rumors she was having an affair with someone shortly before his death that carried over many years after. Whether it's hearsay or not, I don't know. Anyone else read stuff like this?

I love how a thread about Mo with a comment about Yoko turned into a thread about Yoko, haha!

"I know you, you know me; one thing I can tell you is you got to be free!"

Ive heard most of those rumours just not the Yoko PR part. It was Yoko's career that was in the ascendency in 72 - 74 whereas Johns was stifled a little (no thanks to the Political stuff of '72).

I think the affair guy was a guitarist but i cant remember who - a google search would bring up the name but i dont care enough as its just a rumour (just a rumour). Maybe someone here can remember it.

For all we know John going touring and a bit of space from each other might have made their marriage stronger or even just the activity of doing something, seeing people and places and not being couped up in the Dakota. Or, to be a sceptic, even the success of the comeback as it was good for both of them. It wouldnt have been the first marriage of convenience.

But thats all my specualtion based on hearsay. For all i know they were more deeply in love than ever before and wanted to be with each other every nanosecond of every second.

"I told you everything I could about me, Told you everything I could" ('Before Believing' - Emmylou Harris)

"Don't make your love suffer insecurities; Trade the baggage of "self" to set another one free" ('Paper Skin' - Kendall Payne)

13 December 201212.33am

DrBeatle

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Let's not forget that Double Fantasy was actually panned pretty severely by nearly all critics when it was released. It was only given positive reviews after John died, which is the bit of revisionist history that kind of irritates me. I like some songs on it, but let's face it, it wasn't one of his best.

"I know you, you know me; one thing I can tell you is you got to be free!"

I had the thought that Double Fantasy got mediocre reviews and did ok but im happy to admit i got partly deluded by the aftermath. I know it wasnt a major succcess until after Johns murder but it did ok ((Just Like) Starting Over hitting the US top 3 before he was shot). Agree that it is difficult to not look back and think "wow what a success" since both Starting Over and Double Fantasy hit number 1 but then so did Imagine in 1981.

To be honest its not a great album, its fine but only points to hope that whatever next would have been better, I always treat it as being John saying "hi, this is where i am and what ive been doing." (you cant take Milk And Honey to be anything other than a rest of album, some great tracks but not what would have been released if things had been different).

I personally think John would have seen it a reasonable success considering the welcome he got on his return after 5 years out and that it did sell, not great but some folks bought it. Im not sure what he was expecting from it. It might have been a slow burner and sales would have picked up over the festive holidays or it might have sunk without trace and John would be looking at his 3 fellow Beatles for a kick start. Or he might have thought to hell with it, bought a boat, sailed to Japan with Sean, Julian and May Pang and lived there for 40 years learning the history of Japanese pottery.

"I told you everything I could about me, Told you everything I could" ('Before Believing' - Emmylou Harris)

"Don't make your love suffer insecurities; Trade the baggage of "self" to set another one free" ('Paper Skin' - Kendall Payne)

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