And another touchy, feely Sikh story. Check out the last paragraph. Turbans are coming to the L.A. Sheriff's Office. :whistling:

http://www.nriinternet.com/CANADA/POLICE/Manjit_Singh/index.htm

ateamer

10-29-2011, 21:46

So he refuses to meet the basic physical requirements to do the job (clean shaven so gas masks will seal), and gets a fat check plus a cushy desk job that everyone else has to put in years on the job just to get the chance to test for that position? Our state government, and courts, have no balls. If his god will get all twisted up and punish him in the afterlife because he didn't have a beard, that god is a dick anyway and who would want to be stuck for eternity with a dude like that?

Hack

10-29-2011, 23:11

So he refuses to meet the basic physical requirements to do the job (clean shaven so gas masks will seal), and gets a fat check plus a cushy desk job that everyone else has to put in years on the job just to get the chance to test for that position? Our state government, and courts, have no balls. If his god will get all twisted up and punish him in the afterlife because he didn't have a beard, that god is a dick anyway and who would want to be stuck for eternity with a dude like that?

Well, one thing California doesn't want to admit to is our origins as concerning this nation is that we are a Christian nation, as that would not be politically correct. There are those who want California to be portrayed as being the avant garde of multiculturalism, because in many things as California adopts things so will much of the nation. But, I am going to delve further into this from a stand point of logic.

I am a Christian. There are some orthodox Christians who believe that all men should wear beards upon achieving chrismation, (Antiochian IIRC), or at least those who are going to be deacons, priests, etectera. In Orthodox Judaism there are many men who go by the Torah mitzvot concerning not trimming the corners of the beard, (Torah being called the Pentateuch by many Christians).

I know it used to be in the US Army, (subsequently the same in all reserve components), regulations that allowed for the wearing of a beard for religious purposes. Then in the eighties it was done away with.

As to beards and masks: I have worn a beard with a mask and have gotten along quite well with one. It is just a bit of a pain taking off the mask. In Israel there are masks made for those who are orthodox and go along with the restrictions concerning beards, and also there are plenty of men who are orthodox Jews working in the police force, as well as all of their military. So, I have to ask myself, "Why couldn't reasonable accommodation be made for people of different religions, if we truly are going to abide by the workplace laws concerning equal opportunity as applied to people of varying religious beliefs?" And, they do very well doing what they do.

Any person who by his/her religious edicts are required to wear a beard should be allowed to try out for the law enforcement departments; all DOD positions; any other essential service. That goes for dresses and long hair for the women, who have religious edicts that say to do so. If they cannot pass the PT test, they don't make it in; if they don't pass the background test they don't make it in; if they don't pass a LE academy they don't make it to FTO, so forth and so on. Make the rules fair for everyone in public employment, (mostly they are I would think).

Naelbis

10-30-2011, 00:15

I've never worked with a Sikh, but I know a little about their religion and history. Sikhs have a long history of being disciplined and dedicated soldiers/cops etc and I have no issues with either the beard or turban in the work place. We are required as public employers to make reasonable accomodation regarding religion and most of the rules about headgear and facial hair were created by armchair weinies who cared more about how pretty everyone looks than their effectiveness.

Hack

10-30-2011, 00:20

Interesting. I have heard that Sikhs have very good health practices. But, I don't know much about those at all. I think they could make good additions just as any faithful employee/cop.

The only dangers that I see concerning other religions is that while most people from another religious sect may be good people, that there are those who would like to try to remake our country into their image. Radical Muslims are right now trying to do that concerning Western civilization.

merlynusn

10-30-2011, 10:28

My thing is that if he's allowed to have a beard then why can't I?

Obviously, the "gas mask" thing is just a farce. If it wasn't, then they wouldn't make an accommodation. So if he can have a beard, then I should be able to have one too. If it's an essential job function that I be clean shaven, then it's an essential job function and there is no getting around it, everyone must be clean shaven.

It's kind of like the people in the Navy who get to have a beard because of bumps on their face, yet their beard is perfectly lined and trimmed. So obviously, by them perfectly trimming them with exact lines, they negate their argument.

steveksux

10-30-2011, 10:43

My thing is that if he's allowed to have a beard then why can't I? I agree to a point, but agencies have the right to make standards, and people have the right to follow their religion, if that reasonable accomodations... Those conflicts require some sort of compromise. You can always become a Sikh.. ;)

Randy

A6Gator

10-30-2011, 10:49

So he gets $295,000 in damages and gets a $61,000-a-year job as a manager? BS

Since he's never worked in the business, it doesn't say very much about the state's view of managers in the system, does it? If he doesn't know WTF he's doing, other than knowing how to hire a better lawyer than the state, why not an entry-level position like other FNGs, or is that beneath his religion too?

merlynusn

10-31-2011, 08:50

I agree to a point, but agencies have the right to make standards, and people have the right to follow their religion, if that reasonable accomodations... Those conflicts require some sort of compromise. You can always become a Sikh.. ;)

Randy

And I'd have no problem if they just came out and said "We are making a reasonable accommodation but we want our employees clean shaven."

You can't have a reasonable accommodation if you are required to be clean shaven for a job related function like wearing a gas mask. So either their reason for being clean shaven is BS or they are making an unreasonable accommodation since he can't perform the basic job function.

Hack

10-31-2011, 09:24

And I'd have no problem if they just came out and said "We are making a reasonable accommodation but we want our employees clean shaven."

You can't have a reasonable accommodation if you are required to be clean shaven for a job related function like wearing a gas mask. So either their reason for being clean shaven is BS or they are making an unreasonable accommodation since he can't perform the basic job function.

In my job a beard is actually allowable. Not all federal agencies allow for it, but mine is one of the exceptions to the rule of no beards. Heck, one time, (just for the heck of it), I grew one that was somewhat large, and in fact could have grown ear locks along with it, while wearing it was considered that I was possibly an orthodox Israeli by one of the people who had been to Israel, (on our next door military post we have foreign military officers who train there). Now a days I either wear a well trimmed beard, or well trimmed goatee beard, as do some of the LT's in my world. It is short enough that one can not grab a hold of it easily during a fight. And, yes I can still wear a gas mask.

The odd exception is per OSHA. We cannot qualify to wear N95 masks, nor SCBA gear with any type of beard, and are supposed to be clean shaven. So, for those assigned to do escorts for overtime, it is necessary for the person who is being offered the overtime to find out whether the inmate whom they are escorting is making it necessary for the assigned officers to wear an N95 mask.

OLY-M4gery

10-31-2011, 11:17

I agree to a point, but agencies have the right to make standards, and people have the right to follow their religion, if that reasonable accomodations... Those conflicts require some sort of compromise. You can always become a Sikh.. ;)

Randy

Either you have standards or you don't.

If your religon doesn't "allow" you to do certain things, then you can't get jobs that include doing those certain things.

Hack

10-31-2011, 13:20

Either you have standards or you don't.

If your religon doesn't "allow" you to do certain things, then you can't get jobs that include doing those certain things.

Sometimes, with the influx of people from other countries becoming citizens here, and people here being influenced by said people and the religions that are brought with them we come into what is known as cultural conflicts. We as a society, (at least by law), do not expect a legal immigrant to give up his/her religion, but do expect by custom for them to assimilate into our overall culture. In that we are largely a nation of immigrants these things have happened over the period of time that we have had the USA on this continent.

So, standard defined:
Synonym Discussion of STANDARD
standard, criterion, gauge, yardstick, touchstone mean a means of determining what a thing should be. standard applies to any definite rule, principle, or measure established by authority <standards of behavior>. criterion may apply to anything used as a test of quality whether formulated as a rule or principle or not <questioned the critic's criteria for excellence>. gauge applies to a means of testing a particular dimension (as thickness, depth, diameter) or figuratively a particular quality or aspect <polls as a gauge of voter dissatisfaction>.

http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/standard

Standards have had a degree of flexibility usually reflecting the customs, and culture of society; which society usually has changing standards.

Presently we would not dream of disallowing certain peoples to work law enforcement, or for that matter would expect certain people to work law enforcement according to the standards of today, going by the standards that were existent in the era of the late nineteenth and early twentieth centuries. In fact concerning some things we would possibly be appalled at those things that were deemed allowable, not allowed concerning people of different backgrounds, races and religions during that era.

So, with those things in mind we will at some point within law enforcement and other segments of society examine those standards that we hold today to be proper and contemplate proper changes to reflect current society.

I've never worked with a Sikh, but I know a little about their religion and history. Sikhs have a long history of being disciplined and dedicated soldiers/cops etc and I have no issues with either the beard or turban in the work place. We are required as public employers to make reasonable accomodation regarding religion and most of the rules about headgear and facial hair were created by armchair weinies who cared more about how pretty everyone looks than their effectiveness.