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18:12:26 slyrus: agree 100% with you on keyword args. I've heard that many times before too. (I seem to recall it mentioned in a discussion of viaweb's implementation, for example).
18:13:23 approximately: "i thought keyword args were stupid and unlispy until i had a problem they solved"
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18:14:14 I need to start a collection of "Things I don't want to do, but my future self wants me to do"
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18:16:16 save more money, quit drinking?
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18:17:05 *drewc* was disconnected from 9AM PST 'til 10, and has no idea what slyrus said about keywords, but probably agrees.
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18:17:09 Take up BASE jumping! Im not sure if my future self has a death wish, or just wants to be a good BASE jumper.
18:17:23 I do agree with Xach though!
18:17:40 Xach: I was thinking more about specific advice related to programming, but yeah.
18:17:57 Though I don't think my future self would have a problem with my drinking
18:18:11 < slyrus> I have to remind myself when tempted to have functions with optional args -- don't do it! use keywords instead. your future self will thank you later.
18:18:15 < slyrus> I have to remind myself when tempted to have functions with optional args -- don't do it! use keywords instead. your future self will thank you later.
18:18:31 wait ... does coffee count as a drink? it is expensive after all, and I am drinking it now !
18:18:41 jasom: ah, makes sense.
18:18:49 *jasom* needs a new trackball that has better debouncing on the mouse-wheel click
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18:20:15 I often now use keywords as a LET type form ... and for that matter, started using &AUX as well... again to save on LET'ing.
18:20:31 *jasom* goes back and forth on &aux
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18:20:51 I never liked optional args, and always liked keywords, so that was never a choice in my head
18:21:52 note keyword args can be killer for call overhead
18:22:28 jasom: I have just started to use it more ... but basically (mapcar (lambda (a &aux (b (c a)) (c foo)) ...) ...) makes &aux make sense to me.
18:23:16 I like using &aux for function-level constants
18:23:20 oGMo: really? I thought only when using APPLY
18:23:44 oGMo: if profiling gives you "keywords are taking all your time", that is a good and easy thing to fix :)
18:24:04 drewc: right
18:25:01 drewc: otoh, if you're doing a lot of keyword calls, and you're overall slow, it can add up
18:25:01 *drewc* notes that MAKE-INSTANCE and the MAKE-(struct name) uses keywords by default, yet has never been a performance concern for him
18:25:06 and you won't see that profiling
18:25:15 but, obviously, no reason to prematurely optimize
18:25:56 drewc: this is something that would be over tens of thousands of calls and cutting your FPS down, or something, not "I made some objects and it was pretty fast"
18:26:21 oGMo: do you have any numbers on the overhead?
18:26:21 if you're making objects fast enough to notice, you've probably got other issues
18:26:28 oGMo: It might its not uncommon for gf dispatchers to show up in my profiles, but Im not sure off the top of my head how keywords are handled.
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18:26:34 jasom: not on hand, it's easy enough to benchmark, go do it if you care :p
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18:26:58 i did at one point when i was testing the impact of GFs and keyword arguments and fixed arguments
18:26:59 *jasom* is very surprised it has any effect at all
18:27:05 I'd think object allocation and initialization takes much more time than parsing kargs.
18:27:07 sellout-: sure
18:27:17 sellout-: also just for regular functions iirc
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18:27:43 oGMo: thank g-d that 0.0000000000000000000000001 FPS is a good rate for my servers .. better than the -infinity FPS they have now.
18:28:02 there are other oddities (or not really), like specializing on the _last_ of a 7-argument function is a lot slower than specializing on the first
18:28:18 drewc: it's a lot more impactful than that :p
18:28:20 *drewc* puts more keywords args in the base package functions to see it it helps increase the FPS :P
18:28:37 s/it it/if it/
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18:28:43 obviously if you're not actually writing something high performance you don't care
18:29:01 and no your server anything isn't high performance
18:29:03 jtza8 [~jtza8@105-237-80-164.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has joined #lisp
18:29:57 modern servers have CPU to burn, for sure.
18:30:22 well, my '1,000,000 hits/second' profile is about 999,998 more then it gets practically, so beyond that, high performance is not needed. It turns out that network speed is the killer.
18:30:39 yeah CPU (and server count) is wasted at the expense of cranking out code quickly, and that's not a bad thing
18:30:43 imagine
18:30:49 -!- ggole_ is now known as ggole
18:31:44 What? No, my code totally needs to run in the kernel for speed.
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18:31:51 *ggole* unrolls some loops
18:33:02 in the good ol days of obj-c, for tight loops, you'd do the dispatch once and get the inevitable function pointer, then call it directly within the loop.
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18:33:58 the keywords issue is more a binding problem than a dispatch problem, typically
18:34:16 Duane Rettig wrote a bit about how franz makes it fast
18:34:38 Seems like it would be tricky to implement anything aggressive
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18:35:25 of course, in obj-c, it doesn't dispatch based on the types of the arguments.
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18:35:38 but it would be interesting if some of that mechanism was exposed
18:36:51 whartung: it's not dispatch, you can't specialize on keyword arguments, and you're not otherwise picking a function based on what arguments are there
18:37:13 binding and checking, i guess
18:37:29 sure
18:37:37 but again, not an issue unless it's an issue, then you can fix it
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18:39:14 Xach: where was that? I poked around a bit and didn't see anything.
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18:41:06 ggole: it's on comp.lang.lisp somewhere. i can't find it either :(
18:41:13 i should make a duane rettig archive
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18:45:23 Xach: was it this? https://groups.google.com/forum/#!msg/comp.lang.lisp/wTJ1i77ORHI/TgRoMEYq05YJ
18:45:34 (Apologies for using groups -_-)
18:46:09 Anyway it seems like if it's not declared (notinline) and it's in the same source-file there should be no overhead
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18:46:54 since you can safely statically resolve the function call bindings in that case
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18:55:16 ggole: no, though that is pretty interesting, thanks for the link!
18:56:40 ggole: actually, maybe it is.
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18:57:56 I like the single instruction car trick.
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19:20:33 hi lisp hackers
19:20:52 I'm learning lisp, more exactly elisp and sbcl
19:21:12 my idea to get to know better is to develop a web framework
19:21:42 I've check some webservers, the one I tested is hunchentoot
19:21:57 problem is I don't get to install it properly
19:22:08 in my freebsd complains about chunga
19:22:27 any ideas/advices/directions would be very welcome
19:22:30 jmolinaso: I highly recommend installing via quicklisp http://quicklisp.org/beta
19:23:06 jasom: ok
19:23:49 jmolinaso: it is a library manager for lisp; once it's installed you can just do (ql:quickload :hunchentoot) and it will download hunchentoot plus all dependencies
19:24:08 yes, I made some investigation in that one too
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19:24:12 I was using asdf
19:24:27 so does quicklisp
19:24:28 jmolinaso: asdf and quicklisp solve different problems
19:24:38 just to get closer to the metal, my idea is then move forward to quicklisp
19:24:40 jmolinaso: asdf manages compilation and loading of libraries you already have installed
19:24:47 -!- flip214_ is now known as flip214
19:24:48 a ok
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19:25:12 quicklisp downloads the libraries and then uses asdf to compile and load them
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19:25:37 ok
19:25:54 so is not like using quicklisp i miss things from asdf
19:25:56 jmolinaso: can I suggest _not_ learning by using a framework you are going to develop sans know-how, but rather develop an 'application' to see what frame it might need?
19:26:03 jmolinaso: correct
19:26:36 drewc: what do you mean?
19:26:38 -!- akbiggs [~akbiggs@64.215.161.70] has quit [Quit: Lost terminal]
19:27:02 I've being learning django
19:27:12 and I found it quite powerful
19:27:22 jmolinaso: if your frames are no good, what you build on top of it is likely not going to improve the framework
19:27:30 slyrus [~chatzilla@173-228-44-92.dsl.static.sonic.net] has joined #lisp
19:27:31 then via investigation and reading some essays from Paul Graham
19:27:35 I end up in this world
19:27:38 django .. I love gypsy jazz!
19:28:02 *drewc* even has the acoustic guitar for it! :)
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19:28:32 I know, the idea is to get to know the language, not to build a tool
19:28:48 and I see web frameworks quite a nice environment
19:29:07 if I get something nice that I can release as open source, believe me I will
19:29:13 but now is just for fun
19:29:45 and you want to ruin your fun by developing a framework before you know _how_? ;)
19:30:37 drewc: well I'm not planning to start coding now!
19:30:55 I target something, and start finding things around that may help me
19:31:01 and then start developing
19:31:02 OR: I have been a professional CL web developer for over 10 years at this point, and my framework is CL ... so take what I say with a grain of salt.
19:31:15 I have no boss, no time frame, no economical pressure, etc
19:31:22 for the record, I disagree with drewc
19:31:44 writing something that you've written before is a good way to learn a new language
19:32:02 I'd work through the basics first though (e.g. read PCL)
19:32:27 jasom: true, true.
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19:32:38 jasom: that's the idea, i know something about django, I know something about spring
19:32:45 -!- spacefrogg [~spacefrog@unaffiliated/spacefrogg] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds]
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19:33:00 so why not get something in clisp or sbcl
19:33:11 not yet 100% which one
19:33:18 but sbcl find it quite nice
19:33:27 vkrest [~vkrest@2620:0:1cfe:18:2dcd:dc0b:3a89:752] has joined #lisp
19:33:31 I recommend sbcl+emacs+slime for developing with lisp
19:33:51 (slime is a lisp IDE written for emacs)
19:34:03 jasom: the problem I see is that taking stuff that you know for other languages and trying to make lisp behave that way is a recipe for disaster ... but I used python and C before a found Lisp, so that was likely the disaster brewing :D
19:34:34 drewc: I don't know a way to prevent people from doing that, so I just let them learn the hard way :)
19:34:49 jasom: thanks, funny story, I end up in Lisp because at work I need Perl for development and I found the debug on Emacs pretty powerful
19:34:55 from there to elisp
19:34:59 and now I'm here
19:35:06 with that bold target :)
19:35:07 "take what I say with a grain of salt" :)
19:35:29 everyone will write FORTRAN/C/Python/Whatever in lisp before they write lisp in lisp, unless they learn lisp first. I find writing X in lisp to be a good shortcut to getting familiar with the lisp environment.
19:35:49 Yea, I disagree drewc. Best to write Fortran in Lisp first, so you can learn how basically awful it is, and at the same time pick up small idioms that are a better launchpad in to writing Better Lisp()
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19:36:09 drewc: nice advice, what I tend to do the empty brain beginning
19:36:18 see, I found the exact opposite ... but meh, I am different in a lot of ways.
19:36:39 empty brain takes too long. *I* find it hard to learn things with no context.
19:36:50 and my programming history is my context
19:37:25 whartung: true it takes long, that's why I do it on my spare time
19:37:43 I don't see how one can know how to write in the proper style of something before having written a lot in it. So you're going to have to end up writing in some other style at first.
19:37:44 I couldn't make the leap to lisp until I found a scheme book that didn't use the standard vocabulary (notably lambda, which befuddled me to no end in the beginning cognitively)
19:37:56 avoiding the pressure helps me to get to know more things
19:38:12 *drewc* still programs in machine code for a non-existent machine ... TAOCP after all
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19:38:33 Shinmera: there's always the learn X the hard way mentality (if you're not familiar, basically type in a whole bunch of existing idiomatic code, then make changes to it)
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19:38:58 jasom: I don't feel like that actually teaches you the style of anything at all. It teaches you patterns, but not the style.
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19:41:11 well what I know about programming is kind of learning languages
19:41:24 Shinmera: I am a musician as well ... and if you do not know the patterns, I do not care what style you play in ... patterns are formed into 'songs' or 'programs' ... and knowing both pattern and style is quite important.
19:41:32 first you need one language to know your way
19:41:53 then you start learning other languages with comparisons, then you grow and control the idioms
19:42:01 then you enter the path of mastering it
19:42:22 first time I heard about lambda I got "scared" I didn't understand that
19:42:38 but turns out I've being using it in my perl coding
19:43:05 drewc: Of course. But while using sheet music teaches you well how to listen to the proper sounds and how to form melodies and play stuff that sounds good, it only does a very bad job at helping you write your own music or doing freestyle playing.
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19:44:07 drewc: I'm not declining the use of reading code and going by examples at first, don't get me wrong! I'm just saying there's nothing wrong at all with just writing code and not worrying about getting it to the style of something at first. It'll resolve itself well enough over time and you'll also get to understand why it should look that way than going by example and just hoping it's right.
19:44:36 jmolinaso: I'm not familiar with perl much. Do anonymous functions in perl close over the lexical environment?
19:45:14 wauw jasom I just understood half of it
19:46:17 jmolinaso: answered my own question
19:46:31 Shinmera: sheet music is not how I learned patterns at all. I used my ear... I am a songwriter and a 'freestyle' player of instruments yet do not use or write sheet music 'til the pattern is 'done'. Same thing with code ... I read code, then read the documentation and the books about the language. Again, I am likely different than most, so grain of salt, yadda yadda yadda.
19:46:40 what I understood is that lambdas are similar to sub {} in perl
19:46:41 jmolinaso: sub foo { my ($n) = @_; sub {$n += shift} }
19:47:37 jmolinaso: see now the inner sub can access variables from the outer? That's what I was asking if perl could do.
19:47:47 then you can also do something like sub {my ($one) = @_; print $one;}; when you work with events
19:48:06 a ok
19:48:06 hm, I'm having a problem with swank-js
19:48:11 -!- Denommus` is now known as Denommus
19:48:33 that's actually a nice exercise
19:48:40 zfx [~zfx@host86-134-175-102.range86-134.btcentralplus.com] has joined #lisp
19:48:47 oh, wrong channel
19:48:49 jasom: I'll search on that
19:49:36 jmolinaso: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Closure_(computer_programming) and I stole that perl example from http://paulgraham.com/accgen.html (That's how I answered my question, I remembered that someone had already written that in a whole bunch of languages)
19:50:39 ltbarcly [~textual@pool-108-42-99-156.snfcca.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp
19:51:27 jasom: I see a long path ahead of me before enlightment
19:51:31 :)
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19:52:51 jasom: do you have github account?
19:53:03 jmolinaso: I do, but I would say my lisp is very non-idiomatic
19:53:09 *jasom* comes from a C background
19:53:21 no problem
19:53:22 jmolinaso: jasom is my account though, FWIW
19:53:31 mine is jmolinaso
19:53:33 easy
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19:54:50 actually the only open-source project I do significant dev on that anybody uses is in C
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19:55:34 well, that's more than me
19:55:53 I try to get to help on some open source projects
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19:56:06 but I find difficult to engage for a long run
19:56:11 easiest way is to just fix bugs you run into
19:56:17 yep
19:56:23 that's what I'm focusing now
19:56:32 I got into el-get
19:56:44 and just spend some time in the sources
19:56:57 drmeister [~drmeister@155.247.96.196] has joined #lisp
19:57:10 and know I've being learning elasticsearch for the server I have home
19:57:23 the idea I have is to run lisp on freenas
19:57:36 and eventually make a nice plugin
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19:57:46 or even just report bugs at first / do code review and ask about what you can find
19:58:05 gah, I need to push out my changes to plush. The one on github doesn't even have alias expansion
19:58:06 found it very powerful environment for open source projects
19:58:52 being sysadmin as long experience (just 4 years as a developer, and I'm afraid not a very good place)
19:58:59 now
19:59:08 that's why I'm starting that on my own
19:59:11 drewc: you still running common-lisp.net?
19:59:49 jasom: apparently so
19:59:49 -!- dilated_dinosaur [~ivan@46-65-53-22.zone16.bethere.co.uk] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds]
19:59:59 you don't know?
20:00:38 -!- boogie [~boogie@wsip-98-172-168-236.sd.sd.cox.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
20:01:15 whartung: well, the one server I have is not going to be all of cl-net ... and I have given the domain names to another organisation, so what is meant by "common-lisp.net" exactly?
20:01:35 yea, dunno
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20:01:39 ndrei [~avo@83.142.149.227] has joined #lisp
20:01:44 anyone using mocl?
20:02:07 jasom drewc whartung and the rest, nice chat, I'm sure come back often, now I need to get some sleep! thanks for the info!
20:02:17 nn jmolinaso
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20:02:22 whartung: yeah, I do not know
20:02:34 jmolinaso: cheers!
20:03:06 ltbarcly [~textual@pool-108-42-99-156.snfcca.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp
20:03:07 drewc: any chance you could find out if peter herth is actually on the ltk-user mailing list? When I e-mail him directly about LTK he responded promptly, but when I moved the conversation over to the mailing-list (per his request) he stopped responding
20:04:07 I was wondering if he got dropped in the migration to the new mail system
20:04:25 sirdancealo2 [~koo5@194.228.11.172] has joined #lisp
20:04:35 jasom: yup ... I can do that.
20:04:41 (hold)
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20:06:42 *jaimef* wanders off to drop $200 on mocl
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20:14:15 jaimef: there was this discussion about it on comp.lang.lisp last year. Sorry for using groups and URL shortenning http://goo.gl/BVVMdO
20:15:24 nicdev: thanks
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20:16:24 mocl is clicc based?
20:16:47 jasom: I think that's what rainer joswig has said
20:16:52 I don't know if that's official info
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20:17:58 Can anyone confirm for me that executing/compiling the following in CCL crashes it: (defmethod print-object (a b))
20:18:40 jasom: yup, subscribed.
20:18:40 Shinmera: not entirely unlikely to cause problems.
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20:18:53 H4ns: Yeah, but I wouldn't expect a complete crash
20:19:13 Shinmera: error in process filter: net-read error: (cl-assertion-failed (plusp length))
20:19:13
20:19:14 Shinmera: it does not crash for me.
20:19:26 Shinmera: (in the bare repl)
20:19:30 H4ns: when compiling, it throws me into the kernel debugger with an unrecoverable stack. On the REPL it just closes the connection.
20:19:43 Why wouldn't you expect a complete crash?
20:20:11 SBCL seems to handle it gracefully
20:20:19 Or at least continues to run just fine
20:20:36 That's an interesting bit of information, but I'm still wondering about your expectations.
20:20:42 Is it "because SBCL doesn't crash"?
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20:21:12 I wasn't expecting anything really. I stumbled upon it today while trying to compile my program on CCL that had this faulty bit in it and I was a bit baffled to be greeted with a kernel debugger.
20:21:37 is the premise that this crashes because you just yanked the rug from underneath the REPL by murdering print-object?
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20:22:25 I could imagine that because it's used so heavily, print-object might do all sorts of tricks that rely on the constraints of 11.1.2.1.2
20:22:56 whartung: Well the kernel debugger just says it crashed due to an unrecoverable stack overflow, so I'm guessing it goes into an infinite recursion somewhere.
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20:23:25 right, but that's because print-object is so intrinsic, that's what I'm getting at, right?
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20:24:04 Probably.
20:24:22 "the results are undefined"
20:24:30 not because it's expected that compiling an empty method would be hazardous.
20:24:40 print-object is not "intrinsic", but used by the lisp runtime in a lot of places
20:25:03 while the runtime could be trying to cope with all sorts of nonsensical methods, it can as well crash
20:25:11 si
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20:34:59 drewc: thanks
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20:39:37 well it's paid for now :P
20:39:42 wish lispworks was affordable
20:40:13 I don't recall LW being particularly expensive
20:40:25 $1600 is not cheap imho :P
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20:41:12 -!- hiyosi [~skip_it@126.73.30.125.dy.iij4u.or.jp] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds]
20:41:18 You get a lot for $1600
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20:42:31 it's a lot better than Allegro's deal
20:42:40 though Allegro has excellent libraries and support
20:42:51 -!- ggole [~ggole@58-7-109-111.dyn.iinet.net.au] has quit []
20:43:03 Q: How much does Allegro cost? A: How much ya got?
20:43:03 anyway, if you're looking at a business, $1600 is chump change
20:43:13 excellent support.
20:43:22 clearly not business
20:43:25 i've been saying that again and again. i have stopped.
20:43:40 -!- angavrilov [~angavrilo@217.71.227.190] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
20:43:54 hm. well, by reputation. once.
20:43:58 -!- Mon_Ouie [~Mon_Ouie@subtle/user/MonOuie] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds]
20:44:15 compiler+ide+1 year maintenance for $1700 is a great deal IMO
20:44:25 bgs100 [~bgs@unaffiliated/bgs100] has joined #lisp
20:44:48 yeah. franz fanboys say that. but in the world of open source, excellent support is always inferior to being able to look up what's wrong.
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20:58:23 *jaimef* immediately regrets paying for mocl
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21:01:50 their support number is someone's cell
21:03:04 somewhat better than no support number
21:03:31 jaimef: what's bad about a cellphone number?
21:03:51 as long as the person answering is competent, where is the problem?
21:03:52 jaimef: it seemed clear to me that they are a single-digit person shop
21:04:01 because the answer is "Hello, who is this?"
21:04:13 "umm... you got paid for a product"
21:04:18 "oh, yeah right, "
21:04:20 mishoo [~mishoo@93.113.190.121] has joined #lisp
21:04:24 -!- zfx [~zfx@unaffiliated/zfx] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds]
21:04:34
21:04:40 will blog my mocl fun
21:04:44 -!- przl [~przlrkt@p5DCA34EB.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Quit: leaving]
21:05:01 jaimef: offtopic, but interesting. did you get help by that person at all?
21:05:18 yes
21:05:18 zimri-lim [~quassel@12.250.157.102] has joined #lisp
21:05:23 but horrible reception
21:05:33 so most of it was "no we do not have a repl on android"
21:05:36 -!- Krystof [~user@81.174.155.115] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds]
21:05:44