(30-04-2016 06:42 AM)Mittens Deluxe Wrote: One thing that I guess "annoys" me is I have this friend, I was telling him that gender is a social construct, but he says that gender norms are just part of the natural behavior of us as a species.

You are both right. While yes gender roles are the social construct, the reason why they come along are natural. For example, 1 million years ago the gender roles where men hunted and protected, while females gathered food. Both had the responsibility to care for their children. Cut to years later, where men go to work and rake in money and protect, whilst females would do something like clean the house. Both had to take care of children(and men too did house work, like mow the lawn). This is natural because men and women are different, humans are sexually dimorphic, not just in genitalia but it brains,fat, and hormones. Can you name some manish women and some girly men? Sure, but they don't make up enough of the population to become the rule, at best they can be acknowledged.

(30-04-2016 06:42 AM)Mittens Deluxe Wrote: Then goes on to say that women are less strong than men and they think more emotionally and men think more rationally.

Tell him he hit the ball but it was a foul. For the most part, women are weaker than men. However men are more emotional than women, it is just that women are more expressive and communicate better than men.

(30-04-2016 06:42 AM)Mittens Deluxe Wrote: Okay, cool. There may be some things that women are better at than men, some things men may be better at than women, but that's not to say there's no overlap.

The overlap is small, so bringing it up for how the most of the population acts and behaves is kinda pointless.

The way I see, years of institutionalized sexism, which I'm guessing is mostly from the church and traditions of men being lower than women, has indeed lead to a society where sexism is ingrained in our culture.

(30-04-2016 06:42 AM)Mittens Deluxe Wrote: If you don't think that values and traditions which are fucked up get ingrained in society, LOOK AT RELIGION.

Well religion will die, but the religious thoughts we have will not. We will just turn something else into a religion(or religion like). And we all tend to do it, if not in philosophy then in something else.

(30-04-2016 06:42 AM)Mittens Deluxe Wrote: We should be living in a society where men and women embrace more androgynous roles, because I've witnessed a phobia of this sort of thing not only in other people, but in myself.

To say where we should be this way is no different in my book than people saying men and women should be this way. Hell give the other guys some credit, societies where men and women were in different roles have advanced more than androgynous societies. Now am I trying to justify gender roles? No, but I want to make the point that you saying what should be is no better than them. Two wrongs don't make a right. I say let people be them, in a free society that is how it should be. And if you wonder why how that can be and there still be gender roles I would suggest looking at the gender equality paradox.

(30-04-2016 06:42 AM)Mittens Deluxe Wrote: I would love to dress and act more androgynous, I think it's adorable. But in the society we live in, I asked my mom if it's weird for guys to shave their legs, she said yes it's weird and not to do that.

Then just do it.

(30-04-2016 06:42 AM)Mittens Deluxe Wrote: It's fucked up, my legs are hairy and disgusting and I'd rather they be smoother. Yet I get pressured to eat like crap and taunted by my own younger brother for using coconut oil on my face to moisturize it.

Then just do it and not give a fuck. Not giving a fuck is the solution to this problem. I am an atheist, and where I come from being gay is more acceptable than being an atheist. And what did I do? Not give a fuck of course. I told my friends I would not be bothered by dating a trans-woman. What did I do when they said the was weird? Not give a fuck. This is because when you don't give a fuck, they won't give a fuck, and even if they do, it will be pointless to try to stop them.

(30-04-2016 06:42 AM)Mittens Deluxe Wrote: One thing that I guess "annoys" me is I have this friend, I was telling him that gender is a social construct, but he says that gender norms are just part of the natural behavior of us as a species.

You are both right. While yes gender roles are the social construct, the reason why they come along are natural. For example, 1 million years ago the gender roles where men hunted and protected, while females gathered food. Both had the responsibility to care for their children. Cut to years later, where men go to work and rake in money and protect, whilst females would do something like clean the house. Both had to take care of children(and men too did house work, like mow the lawn). This is natural because men and women are different, humans are sexually dimorphic, not just in genitalia but it brains,fat, and hormones. Can you name some manish women and some girly men? Sure, but they don't make up enough of the population to become the rule, at best they can be acknowledged.

(30-04-2016 06:42 AM)Mittens Deluxe Wrote: Then goes on to say that women are less strong than men and they think more emotionally and men think more rationally.

Tell him he hit the ball but it was a foul. For the most part, women are weaker than men. However men are more emotional than women, it is just that women are more expressive and communicate better than men.

(30-04-2016 06:42 AM)Mittens Deluxe Wrote: Okay, cool. There may be some things that women are better at than men, some things men may be better at than women, but that's not to say there's no overlap.

The overlap is small, so bringing it up for how the most of the population acts and behaves is kinda pointless.

The way I see, years of institutionalized sexism, which I'm guessing is mostly from the church and traditions of men being lower than women, has indeed lead to a society where sexism is ingrained in our culture.

(30-04-2016 06:42 AM)Mittens Deluxe Wrote: If you don't think that values and traditions which are fucked up get ingrained in society, LOOK AT RELIGION.

Well religion will die, but the religious thoughts we have will not. We will just turn something else into a religion(or religion like). And we all tend to do it, if not in philosophy then in something else.

(30-04-2016 06:42 AM)Mittens Deluxe Wrote: We should be living in a society where men and women embrace more androgynous roles, because I've witnessed a phobia of this sort of thing not only in other people, but in myself.

To say where we should be this way is no different in my book than people saying men and women should be this way. Hell give the other guys some credit, societies where men and women were in different roles have advanced more than androgynous societies. Now am I trying to justify gender roles? No, but I want to make the point that you saying what should be is no better than them. Two wrongs don't make a right. I say let people be them, in a free society that is how it should be. And if you wonder why how that can be and there still be gender roles I would suggest looking at the gender equality paradox.

(30-04-2016 06:42 AM)Mittens Deluxe Wrote: I would love to dress and act more androgynous, I think it's adorable. But in the society we live in, I asked my mom if it's weird for guys to shave their legs, she said yes it's weird and not to do that.

Then just do it.

(30-04-2016 06:42 AM)Mittens Deluxe Wrote: It's fucked up, my legs are hairy and disgusting and I'd rather they be smoother. Yet I get pressured to eat like crap and taunted by my own younger brother for using coconut oil on my face to moisturize it.

Then just do it and not give a fuck. Not giving a fuck is the solution to this problem. I am an atheist, and where I come from being gay is more acceptable than being an atheist. And what did I do? Not give a fuck of course. I told my friends I would not be bothered by dating a trans-woman. What did I do when they said the was weird? Not give a fuck. This is because when you don't give a fuck, they won't give a fuck, and even if they do, it will be pointless to try to stop them.

I think that society would be an inherently more androgynous society, if you took away cultural sexism and homophobia. I mean, if you look at cultures like Japan, they already have a population of guys who seem to be more comfortable with dressing androgynous, as well as having a culture of guys who are generally much thinner. If you live in America, you've probably met at least one person who scorns vegetarianism, in favor of eating garbage. I don't believe that's just sophomoric humor, because in reality people really live that facetious joke. Guys aren't even expected to care about being thin, or care about having beautiful skin and hair, guys are expected to just be unattractive, stupid bros. At least, this is the kind of person MY OWN FUCKING BROTHER is.

I honestly believe androgyny and beauty would be pervasive for both sexes, if you took away institutionalized sexism. As well as the notion that you're gay by default and you have to "come out of the closet" as gay. THAT PROVES beyond any reasonable doubt, that there's a major systemic, ingrained problem in our society, where people have to expect you to be straight. It's a problem I feel pretty bad about.

I find this to be a very strange topic. What does it even mean to "like" feminism? It reads like the OP is trying to start an argument right off (I assume that was not the case).

I also think labels like "feminism" over complicates the issue. And, what does it even mean to treat people "equally" (I know what it means from a legal perspective but I'm talking larger societal view)? I think it's more about treating people fairly. The reality is that men and women are different. It's more than our sex organs. I'm not expert but I think there is a reason men and women generally gravitate towards different things, and I don't think it's just societal assigned gender roles. The problem we've had with gender roles is more about creating exclusivity around certain activities. Little girls couldn't be interested in sports. Little boys couldn't be interested in dance. If you had a kid who crossed the streams, you either put a lot of needless pressure on your kid to conform or you didn't and society stepped in and put a lot of needless pressure on your kid and told you what a crappy parent you were. Fortunately, we are moving away from that, but it's taken a long time and I'm sure we did a lot of damage along the way. Men and women aren't exclusively one thing or the other, but we certainly do gravitate towards different things in general.

Regarding some of the other issues, I think they are beyond the original question. A woman who doesn't want to be harassed when she walks down the street is not necessarily a feminist. You don't need a label or an ideology to not want to be treated like a piece of meat or hear from every random guy how great it would be for you if only you just now went home and went to bed with him. And, while that is an extreme example, I think it does happen. There was a video a year or so ago of a girl who walked through NY minding her own business with a puss on her face and someone surreptitiously followed her and filmed her the whole time. The amount of men who just catcalled her, approached her, and outright hit on her was pretty staggering. I am giving the video the benefit of the doubt that it was really shot all in one day and not just edited to show what they wanted to show. Assuming it's totally legit, it was a real eye opener.

Shackle their minds when they're bent on the cross
When ignorance reigns, life is lost

(30-04-2016 08:00 AM)Mittens Deluxe Wrote: I think that society would be an inherently more androgynous society, if you took away cultural sexism and homophobia.

Well that is not true. Even countries like Sweden can't be gender neutral. Humans don't have a blank slate. Take away gender roles, and they will just return. Biology plays a factor in this, not just society.

(30-04-2016 08:00 AM)Mittens Deluxe Wrote: I mean, if you look at cultures like Japan, they already have a population of guys who seem to be more comfortable with dressing androgynous, as well as having a culture of guys who are generally much thinner.

Well no. Speaking to Japanese people, mostly males, they aren't really comfortable with it. And herbivore men are like MGTOW, they just don't want to date. Also thinner doesn't mean androgynous, as many men may be thing, but still do things like fighting and standing their ground. So no thin=/= androgynous.

(30-04-2016 08:00 AM)Mittens Deluxe Wrote: If you live in America, you've probably met at least one person who scorns vegetarianism, in favor of eating garbage.

Assuming vegetarians don't eat garbage.

(30-04-2016 08:00 AM)Mittens Deluxe Wrote: I don't believe that's just sophomoric humor, because in reality people really live that facetious joke. Guys aren't even expected to care about being thin, or care about having beautiful skin and hair, guys are expected to just be unattractive, stupid bros.

As a guy who tries to build muscle for women, that is not true. Men might not always have to care about looks, but men have to be successful. Why? Because women like it. Men like big tits and ass, women like a man who can buy the shit. It works. Now you can argue that is social, but the fact men like fertility and women like men who provide isn't.

(30-04-2016 08:00 AM)Mittens Deluxe Wrote: At least, this is the kind of person MY OWN FUCKING BROTHER is.

Now I see it. I think you are thinking your own individual problems most be societal problems. I also think you have a grip against your brother.

(30-04-2016 08:00 AM)Mittens Deluxe Wrote: I honestly believe androgyny and beauty would be pervasive for both sexes, if you took away institutionalized sexism.

No it wouldn't thanks to sexual selection. There is a reason women like men who are strong and rich, and that is because those imply protection and comfort. Men like women who look good, because that implies that his offspring will be healthy. Like it or not, this works for the species and there for won't go away naturally.

(30-04-2016 08:00 AM)Mittens Deluxe Wrote: As well as the notion that you're gay by default and you have to "come out of the closet" as gay. THAT PROVES beyond any reasonable doubt, that there's a major systemic, ingrained problem in our society, where people have to expect you to be straight. It's a problem I feel pretty bad about.

Well think about it, how many people on the planet are homosexual? Not many, they make up less than 10% of our population, and that is with both gays and lesbians. We do expect people to be straight, but what is important is that when someone comes out as gay, they will be accepted for it.

What nurse describes is disgustingly common. I'm 5'9" and muscled, this isn't necessarily a size and strength thing. If my husband leaves my side in a bar, I get creepy guys coming after me and the word "no" has little effect. Same at a concert. Or if I'm out with friends. And occasionally if I'm out inspecting a job. I honestly don't understand why men do this. Admittedly most guys don't, and those who don't listen to a "piss off" are creepy fucks anyway. And it warms my cold cynical heart to see this type of behavior being more and more frowned upon.

(30-04-2016 08:23 AM)natachan Wrote: I honestly don't understand why men do this. Admittedly most guys don't, and those who don't listen to a "piss off" are creepy fucks anyway. And it warms my cold cynical heart to see this type of behavior being more and more frowned upon.

The same thing that makes men die for a woman is the same that tends to make men think they can swoon in and try to meet a woman. It sucks though, so don't think I don't agree with you that it is bad, because I do.

(30-04-2016 08:00 AM)Mittens Deluxe Wrote: I think that society would be an inherently more androgynous society, if you took away cultural sexism and homophobia.

Well that is not true. Even countries like Sweden can't be gender neutral. Humans don't have a blank slate. Take away gender roles, and they will just return. Biology plays a factor in this, not just society.

(30-04-2016 08:00 AM)Mittens Deluxe Wrote: I mean, if you look at cultures like Japan, they already have a population of guys who seem to be more comfortable with dressing androgynous, as well as having a culture of guys who are generally much thinner.

Well no. Speaking to Japanese people, mostly males, they aren't really comfortable with it. And herbivore men are like MGTOW, they just don't want to date. Also thinner doesn't mean androgynous, as many men may be thing, but still do things like fighting and standing their ground. So no thin=/= androgynous.

(30-04-2016 08:00 AM)Mittens Deluxe Wrote: If you live in America, you've probably met at least one person who scorns vegetarianism, in favor of eating garbage.

Assuming vegetarians don't eat garbage.

(30-04-2016 08:00 AM)Mittens Deluxe Wrote: I don't believe that's just sophomoric humor, because in reality people really live that facetious joke. Guys aren't even expected to care about being thin, or care about having beautiful skin and hair, guys are expected to just be unattractive, stupid bros.

As a guy who tries to build muscle for women, that is not true. Men might not always have to care about looks, but men have to be successful. Why? Because women like it. Men like big tits and ass, women like a man who can buy the shit. It works. Now you can argue that is social, but the fact men like fertility and women like men who provide isn't.

(30-04-2016 08:00 AM)Mittens Deluxe Wrote: At least, this is the kind of person MY OWN FUCKING BROTHER is.

Now I see it. I think you are thinking your own individual problems most be societal problems. I also think you have a grip against your brother.

(30-04-2016 08:00 AM)Mittens Deluxe Wrote: I honestly believe androgyny and beauty would be pervasive for both sexes, if you took away institutionalized sexism.

No it wouldn't thanks to sexual selection. There is a reason women like men who are strong and rich, and that is because those imply protection and comfort. Men like women who look good, because that implies that his offspring will be healthy. Like it or not, this works for the species and there for won't go away naturally.

(30-04-2016 08:00 AM)Mittens Deluxe Wrote: As well as the notion that you're gay by default and you have to "come out of the closet" as gay. THAT PROVES beyond any reasonable doubt, that there's a major systemic, ingrained problem in our society, where people have to expect you to be straight. It's a problem I feel pretty bad about.

Well think about it, how many people on the planet are homosexual? Not many, they make up less than 10% of our population, and that is with both gays and lesbians. We do expect people to be straight, but what is important is that when someone comes out as gay, they will be accepted for it.

I have no idea how you quoted every line of what I said.

Okay, say that gender roles are just part of nature. That's a perfectly logical stance to have, I wouldn't even deny it. If you look at humanity though, humanity is the only species that will discriminate against it's own kind for being different and develop taboos and phobias. This is an evolutionary fuck up, human beings are obviously much different from just another natural animal. We have our own self awareness, so we have to question our own intellect. I'm not saying that men would automatically be androgynous if this weren't the case, but honestly, just imagine a perfect world. A world where people aren't divided by their gender, everyone would be comfortable being androgynous. We don't live in a perfect world, we live in a very fucked up world, where sexism is ingrained in our society.

Well, thinner doesn't mean androgynous, but men in America certainly seem to spread the idea that you have to "eat like a man". No, this isn't just my brother espousing this opinion either, it's basically any sexist asshole.

As a vegetarian, I can safely say that I do not eat garbage, and I get mocked sometimes for being health conscious.

I suppose you're the authority on what women want now too?

I'd wager that if we lived in a world where being homosexual was literally illegal and could still get you stoned in many parts of the world, much more than 10 percent of people would identify as some sort of gay straight bisexual or transgender, or some alternative form of gender expression. You argument really holds no water with me, it just seems like mansplaning.

(30-04-2016 08:59 AM)Mittens Deluxe Wrote: I have no idea how you quoted every line of what I said.

That's really easy. All you need is a bit of familiarity with how the forum code works.

Whenever you hit the 'Reply' button, it takes you to a new page with a basic text editor and the entirety of the post you want to respond to already filled in. How does the forum know to display that text inside of a quote box? Well, look at the format, and you'll see it's surrounded by quote brackets.

For the sake of demonstration, I'm going to replace the square brackets [] with the curved ones {}. To get shit to actually work, you need to use the square brackets.

To create a basic quote box is as simple as boxing the desired text with brackets both before and after it. Basic quote boxes follow the following format.

{quote}
Enter in the text you want quoted here.
{/quote}

If you replace the squiggly brackets with square one's, it would look like this.

Quote:Enter in the text you want quoted here.

Now whenever you hit reply, the forum takes care of that already. Not only that, but it also generates more detailed start brackets, that not only label the source of the quote abut also create a link to take you directly to that quote. These bracket are a tad more complicated. Case in point, the auto created quote brackets for your post look like this...

{quote='Mittens Deluxe' pid='987781' dateline='1462028343'}

The = after the quote changes the label. You can use this to create your own attributed quote boxes as easily as this.

Wikipedia Wrote:This was created by typing the header bracket like this {quote=Wikipedia}
Notice however there is no green link arrow or time stamp.

The 'pid' is effectively the link to the exact post being quoted, and the 'dateline' part encodes the time stamp. These aren't necessary for making your own quotes, but they're useful to have and it's why the forum put them in automatically for you if you hit the Reply button on a specific post.

That being said, to do what Zeke did, it's as simple as copy pasting the header bracket to cut up your post however much he needed, and then just manually add in all of the closing {/quote} brackets after each break. If you miss one, your post will appear blank if you post it or check it in preview. Always be sure to check the spelling in the bracket, make sure you use both ends of the bracket, and don't forget the slash. Also every header bracket needs an ending bracket, so make sure you have enough. Being short one will cause the same blank post glitch.

[/quote] will work.

[/quote[
[quote]
[\quote]
[/qute]

^These will all screw the format pooch.

Just about everything works this way. Knowing this, you can do just about everything the editor allows you to do, by just typing it in manually.

{img}
Insert the URL of an image here to embed the image in your post like this...
{/img}

(30-04-2016 08:59 AM)Mittens Deluxe Wrote: Okay, say that gender roles are just part of nature. That's a perfectly logical stance to have, I wouldn't even deny it. If you look at humanity though, humanity is the only species that will discriminate against it's own kind for being different and develop taboos and phobias.

Discrimination is a social animal thing. Other apes do it, wolves do it, even animals like ants do it. Social animals will discriminate.

(30-04-2016 08:59 AM)Mittens Deluxe Wrote: This is an evolutionary fuck up, human beings are obviously much different from just another natural animal.

First, no. Because if it was a fuck up, then we wouldn't be here like this. Evolution doesn't work in good or bad, it works in what works and doesn't work.

Second, I can say sure, but every animal can be different from every other natural animal. Humans are animals, just like any other, we are not that special.

(30-04-2016 08:59 AM)Mittens Deluxe Wrote: We have our own self awareness, so we have to question our own intellect.

Dolphins also have self awareness, and so do other apes. On the intellect thing I can't say, but animals like dolphins and other apes being able to question themselves would not be surprising.

(30-04-2016 08:59 AM)Mittens Deluxe Wrote: I'm not saying that men would automatically be androgynous if this weren't the case, but honestly, just imagine a perfect world.

There will never be a perfect world, because someone out there will think ones perfect world sucks.

(30-04-2016 08:59 AM)Mittens Deluxe Wrote: A world where people aren't divided by their gender, everyone would be comfortable being androgynous. We don't live in a perfect world, we live in a very fucked up world, where sexism is ingrained in our society.

Well humans are a sexually dimorphic species, so we have no choice. In fact not noticing gender is dangerous. For example, if I need something heavy lifted and there is a man walking by and I ask him to help, vs a female. Now in the real world the male would be picked because the chances of a man being stronger than a woman is much, much higher. In one where gender is not seen and I pick the female, chances are that she won't be able to carry it for long and her and I will get hurt, maybe even die. We see gender differences for a reason, and that is because men and women are different.

(30-04-2016 08:59 AM)Mittens Deluxe Wrote: Well, thinner doesn't mean androgynous, but men in America certainly seem to spread the idea that you have to "eat like a man". No, this isn't just my brother espousing this opinion either, it's basically any sexist asshole.

This is where I question the definition of sexism. And your brother might just be teasing you, because my brother and I do the same thing. My sister and I do the same thing. Siblings tend to pick on each other. So when he teases you tease him back. Also I never heard eat like a man before?

(30-04-2016 08:59 AM)Mittens Deluxe Wrote: As a vegetarian, I can safely say that I do not eat garbage, and I get mocked sometimes for being health conscious.

And I get mocked for what I do, but I just shrug it off and continue my day.

(30-04-2016 08:59 AM)Mittens Deluxe Wrote: I suppose you're the authority on what women want now too?

Now these has been seen and observed. There is a reason women with high status jobs or well paying jobs struggle to find a mate. It isn't because they are ugly, or that they are an asshole, but the fact that if you can provide and protect yourself as a woman, whats the point of dating a man of equal or lower status than you? It is also the reason you see ugly rich men with hot women, but you pretty much never see ugly rich women with hot men. And these patterns are incredible common and universal. America is not the only place like this. So I am just not saying that to say it, but women's mate choices are for protection and comfort.

(30-04-2016 08:59 AM)Mittens Deluxe Wrote: I'd wager that if we lived in a world where being homosexual was literally illegal and could still get you stoned in many parts of the world, much more than 10 percent of people would identify as some sort of gay straight bisexual or transgender.

(30-04-2016 08:00 AM)Mittens Deluxe Wrote: I mean, if you look at cultures like Japan, they already have a population of guys who seem to be more comfortable with dressing androgynous, as well as having a culture of guys who are generally much thinner.

This is actually the exact opposite of what Japanese culture is actually like.

Starting with the obvious, Japanese people are thinner because there are literal laws in place to curb obesity in Japan. Japanese culture is hugely against being overweight, and all adults over the age of 45 must have their waistlines checked annually. You won't, contrary to popular myth, be fined or jailed for being overweight, but you do have to submit to medical examination and receive dietary consultation.

Beyond that, Japanese culture is highly entrenched in gender norms. They just aren't American gender norms. I'd go more in-depth into this, but it would require me to look up sources that I honestly haven't read in years and I'm short for time at the moment. Essentially, though, Japanese men are very much told to be manly, and women to be womanly; "bishie" characters in anime are the exception, not the rule.

Out of time for the moment. I'll come back with more detail later.

"Owl," said Rabbit shortly, "you and I have brains. The others have fluff. If there is any thinking to be done in this Forest - and when I say thinking I mean thinking - you and I must do it." - A. A. Milne, The House at Pooh Corner