People are so damn quick to get to the bitework these days they'll pass on some of the more basic of necessities won't they.

I agree. I don't do bite work but I do have my opinions and observations.

Bitework is very exciting for the handler and the dog. It's also dangerous. It's a dog biting someone. That's why I agree with Ant. Logic, to me, dictates having a dog that is obscenely obedient prior to introduction to bitework. It's a safety thing.

Demo wrote:

Large amounts of obedience work in a young dog can squash drive early and create an inhibited animal

Inhibition is something you want in a dog that does bitework. That way the "handler" can control the dog that much more. As far as inhibiting drive....not sure about that. I guess it would depend on what someones interpretation of drive is.

Demo wrote:

This can also happen with a dog that is primarily marker trained (actually it can get much worse in such a dog). Instead of squashing drive with corrections you create a dog whose first instinct is to look to the handler for a reward, instead of to the decoy.

Looking to the handler for reward is not the pinnacle of marker training. For instance bitework in it's self would be the reward. With marker training you reward the behavior you want to reinforce. If you want the dog to look at you that's what you reward. If you want him to stay focused on the decoy then that's what you reward.

I can honestly say that Red was NOT started on bitework until she was 8 months old adn had LOTS of obedience on her. I did a lot of tug with her at home but she never got into bitework until she knew "aus" withotu a hesitation. This is NOT how most sport dog trainers train BUT I'm not most. I want a higher level of obedience ona dog BEFORE we start bitework. That's me adn as far as it killing drive, it will in an average dog but that's where choosing the right sport dog puppy comes into affect. Red had a VERY high level of Obeience before we started going to the club but she has MORE drive than 90% of the other dogs there. It all comes down to the INDIVIDUAL DOG and TRAINER! I do not think that it necessarily leads to instability in tempermant because most of the sport dogs I have seen have been WAY more stable than the average pet.

You do NOT want inhibition in PP dog or a sport dog. That does not mean that tyhe dog is goign to bite whenever. Nor does havingit make it easier to control a dog. In fact it couldn't be farther from the truth. LOL I am still a beginner and learn new things everyday. I have only been doing Sch with a pit bul for 2 yeasrs. Before that I did PP with Rotties and let me tell you. That's a tough dog to train adn work. Just happens my next dog will eb a rottie. LOL

It all comes down to the INDIVIDUAL DOG and TRAINER! I do not think that it necessarily leads to instability in temperament because most of the sport dogs I have seen have been WAY more stable than the average pet.

I agree. A dog with the high level of ob needed to do safe bitework is stable or the dog couldn't do the work or the dog would just shut down from the stress.

You do NOT want inhibition in PP dog or a sport dog. That does not mean that tyhe dog is goign to bite whenever. Nor does havingit make it easier to control a dog. In fact it couldn't be farther from the truth.

My use of the term inhibition is being taken to the extreme usage of the word. As I explained earlier, I'm not talking about inhibition in the bite. I'm talking about a dog inhibition to the degree that the handler gives the command to bite. That's inhibition in a form.

Since you seem to be one of the rare PP people who taught things all bass ackwards. How did you do it and not lose "drive".

It all comes down to the INDIVIDUAL DOG and TRAINER! I do not think that it necessarily leads to instability in temperament because most of the sport dogs I have seen have been WAY more stable than the average pet.

I agree. A dog with the high level of ob needed to do safe bitework is stable or the dog couldn't do the work or the dog would just shut down from the stress.

You do NOT want inhibition in PP dog or a sport dog. That does not mean that tyhe dog is goign to bite whenever. Nor does havingit make it easier to control a dog. In fact it couldn't be farther from the truth.

My use of the term inhibition is being taken to the extreme usage of the word. As I explained earlier, I'm not talking about inhibition in the bite. I'm talking about a dog inhibition to the degree that the handler gives the command to bite. That's inhibition in a form.

Since you seem to be one of the rare PP people who taught things all bass ackwards. How did you do it and not lose "drive".

I believe in Obedience first and "sport" later. That's me. If a little OB kills the dog's drive it would've probably washed out in the end anyway. Honestly the ones I have trained have been INSANELY HIGH DRIVE dogs bred for sport and the Am. Staff just turned otu to really like Schutzhund. For me it comes down to the caliber dog you have. IF you truly have a "HIGH" caliber dog that really has "TRUE" drive then you shouldn't have to worry about OB killing drive.

When I put Red in a down-stay, it makes her want that bite MUCH mroe. BY the way her reward for OB work is a good solid bite. That's a dog with drive but I also Do NOT use food for my trainign, toys and praise etc. IDK Maybe I got lucky. The president of my Schutzhund club as well as the training director have tld me I have a natrural knack for picking sport dogs be it whatever breed. So I guess I have been lucky to have truly "DRIVEY" dogs.

I just want to say that I despise this term. I have seen many dogs who have "washed out" of sport and police programs be trained to do PP and police work with a different trainer and a different method. It's all in HOW you train. IT ALL DEPENDS ON THE DOG! Just because a dog can't learn through option A doesn't mean that the dog is crap, it means that you need to try option B, C, and/or D. Just because the dog isn't super easy to train means it can't be trained at all? That, to me, is just lazy.

Some dogs can do massive amounts of obedience without it affecting their bite/drive too much, but for others it can kill their bite/drive to do too much OB first. Tailor your training to the dog. We say it when it comes to other aspects for training, why can't it apply to bitework training as well?

"All changes, even the most longed for, have their melancholy; for what we leave behind us is a part of ourselves; we must die to one life before we can enter another." -Anatole France

I just want to say that I despise this term. I have seen many dogs who have "washed out" of sport and police programs be trained to do PP and police work with a different trainer and a different method. It's all in HOW you train. IT ALL DEPENDS ON THE DOG! Just because a dog can't learn through option A doesn't mean that the dog is crap, it means that you need to try option B, C, and/or D. Just because the dog isn't super easy to train means it can't be trained at all? That, to me, is just lazy.

Some dogs can do massive amounts of obedience without it affecting their bite/drive too much, but for others it can kill their bite/drive to do too much OB first. Tailor your training to the dog. We say it when it comes to other aspects for training, why can't it apply to bitework training as well?

Great post Sis!

There's a fine line between genius and insanity. I have erased this line.

I found this snippit pertaining to this subject in SCHUTZHUND: THEORY AND TRAINING METHODS by Susan Barwig and Stewart Hilliard. Thought everyone would like to read it, no matter what side of the fence you're on

In some ways bite work is the least artificial and most interesting of the three phases of Schutzhund training, because it is here that we see raw dog behavior at its purest. In protection we observe the dog doing what comes naturally to it. Obedience, by contrast, is primarily inhibitory in nature. Obedience is mainly concerned with teaching the animal to retain its impulses to roam, explore, hunt animals and try its strength against other dogs. Tracking is certainly founded on the animal's natural behavior, but Schutzhund tracking is so stylized by the necessity to determine a winner that it little resembles a hunter searching out prey.

To our mind, nothing distills the essence of what a dog is, nothing smacks so much of the predator, as the sight of a dog coursing in full stride downfield after the decoy, heading for a collision that it wants with every fiber of its being. The animal is momentarily unfettered, free and impelled solely by its own desire.

In bite work we see the character of the individual dog most clearly. Good trainers can and do "fake" dogs of deficient character through obedience and tracking. It is much more difficult to counterfeit a dog in bite work. On the protection field, as the dog copes simultaneously with the challenge posed by the agitator (whose job it is to test its nerve) and pressure from the handler (who demands that it obey), we can steal a quick look into the dog's heart and see what is there.

We look for courage, because without courage the animal is empty, hollow. We also look for a dog that is "in hand," the obeys the handler utterly, in spite of an urge to bite and forget all else.

But what we look for first in the dog is raw power. Power arises from desire, and we look for a dog with a desire that drives it to use its body to the utmost--an animal that hurls itself with a crash into the agitator. This kind of desire arises first from genetics (the dog must be born with a full complement of vigorous drives) and second from the first few months of training. We call the initial stage of schooling drive work.

Drive work has three basic objectives:1) To establish the animal boldness, commitment and power by creating an intense desire for combat with the agitator.2) To strike in the dog the best possible balance between defense and prey-motivated aggression3) To teach the dog to bite with a full, hard mouth

During the second phase of training, field work, we teach the dog control, harnessing its power to the exercises of Sch I, II and III protection routine. We cannot proceed to field work until we have fully accomplished the three basic objectives.

In drive work we lay the dog's foundation. If the dog is not solid, steady of nerve and passionate in desire, then it will not weather the inevitable discouragements of field work. Each correction that the dog receives will diminish its quality and, in the end, we will all wonder why such a good-looking young dog did not turn out as well as we thought it would.

A fundamental difference between the two phases of protection training is that in drive work we physically restrain the animal, while in field work we begin to teach it to restrain itself.

In drive work all control of the dog is physical. We don't command it--we hold it back. There is no obedience in drive work, because obedience kills drive. There is no punishment, no correction. The dog is manhandled from one place to another, free to strain and struggle against its handler in order to get at the helper. Not only do we allow the animal to struggle against its handler, we encourage it. Being physically held back creates the frustration that builds drive.

It is extremely important to understand that protection training is utterly different from obedience. This applies especially to those who, although novices in Schutzhund, are experienced in obedience training and already have their own way of doing things. We do not compel or command the dog to bite, we allow it to. The dog does its own and there is little that we can do to help if its nerve fails, especially when it is defending us from someone we are afraid of. It is entirely the dog's endeavor, and it needs both spirit and sense of independence to accomplish it. The animal must develop an initiative and a will apart from ours, and obedience training (especially heavy-handed obedience) has just the opposite effect. Slaves make poor body guards.

To put it another way: We don't need brakes until we have some horse-power.

I just want to say that I despise this term. I have seen many dogs who have "washed out" of sport and police programs be trained to do PP and police work with a different trainer and a different method. It's all in HOW you train. IT ALL DEPENDS ON THE DOG! Just because a dog can't learn through option A doesn't mean that the dog is crap, it means that you need to try option B, C, and/or D. Just because the dog isn't super easy to train means it can't be trained at all? That, to me, is just lazy.

Some dogs can do massive amounts of obedience without it affecting their bite/drive too much, but for others it can kill their bite/drive to do too much OB first. Tailor your training to the dog. We say it when it comes to other aspects for training, why can't it apply to bitework training as well?

Sis- IN all my posts I state over and over that the trainign depends on the individual dog and trainer. Washed out doesn't mean that the dog is crap or useless. It means to me that the dog will NOT work for ME. I did have a rottie that did that and he went on to be a Sch3IPO3 under a different trainer. Sometimes certain dogs and people don't click. So in essence they do wash out for THAT person.

WOW! I've been gone a few days and the thread has went crazy, in a good way. I know I'm chiming in late, but here goes.

I start my personal dogs in proper bite foundation at 6-8 weeks old. I place them on a back tie and let them chase a rag. When they bite, I put tension on the rag to develop a strong bite. I'll set the pup down and let him counter in and then win. Once the pup is biting confidently, I'll start adding environmental's. I keep the pup on the rag and back tie till they start teething. while teething, I tie them out and let them watch other pups work. Once they are done teething we go back to the rag and then introduce the tug with fast prey movements. Once the pup is biting the tug full and confident then I go back to introducing environmental pressures again. Once the pup is doing well with this, then I start introducing the sleeve, attached to a long line, then eventually on the arm.
The pup sees all prey, on back tie all the time. During this time, the pup is very much equipment oriented and will not bite without seeing said equipment. The pup is usually about a yr old at this time. Only then do I start motivational obedience with food/ toys. Once the pup/ dog knows what I'm asking do I start compulsion (prong collar).
With all this being said the pup is always on leash. Not that I fear the pup is going to bite someone, but b/c I don't want the pup to run off and possibly get hit by a car or something stupid of that nature. Even when the pup knows his obedience I still keep a leash on the now young dog, again not for fear of the dog biting someone but b/c I don't want to be caught in a situation the where my dog blows me off and gets away with it. I'm a firm believer that dogs are creature's of habit and as such if the obedience foundation is strong then obedience will be reliable both on and off leash.
I wait this long to do obedience for several reasons but do recognize that every dog is an individual and as such should be treated as such and training adjusted accordingly to fit that particular dog.
I will not put bite work on a clients dog without obedience, regardless of age,nor would I suggest john Q Public keep a dog till it's a yr old without obedience. It's just not practical.
Bite training or not, a confident dog WILL NOT bite someone for no reason.
Greg

Greg

He is your friend, your partner, your defender, your dog. You are his life, his love, his leader. He will be yours, faithful and true, to the last beat of his heart. You owe it to him to be worthy of such devotion."

greg-by obedience do you mean basic or even advanced obdedience obedience, if that makes sense, or do you mean bitework obedience? because i think that tre, for example, had a huge background in obedience LONG b4 we ever started protection, however you don't start asking them to apply that obedience or learn new obedience, like a bark and hold for example, until after the dog has developed strong drives and confidence and hopefully a good bite. are we saying the same things?

when I use the term obedience, I mean I typically do not show my dogs any obedience, not even strictly motivational. The reason I do not use any obedience, not even motivational is because I don't want the dog to start behaviors in the bite work I am not looking for at that time. A prime example would be a green dog with a good foundation in obedience done motivationally. The dog sits for food or toy. any time the dog wants a treat, it sits. In essence, we teach the dog to get what he wants he must first sit. Now take that same dog whom I want to work on a back tie and develop his grip. I want the dog at the end of the line jumping, barking and really going at the rag/tug/ sleeve, whatever. The young dog gets frustrated and reverts to what he knows to get what he wants, and that is "sit". Most may like that and start teaching a bark and hold out of it. But let's take this a step further. Let's take this same dog and put him in a trial situation in a surprise scenario based sport like PSA. Let's say they set up a kennel run with the back of the kennel facing the handler, dog team. The door on the run is of the sliding type (side to side) and shut enough the were the dog could stick his nose in and open it. we send the same dog and he makes a pass around the run but doesn't see the opening the first time around. Now the dogs frustrated b/c he wants the decoy bad but can't get to him. what's he do? Chances are he will revert back to what he knows and that would be to sit in hopes of getting what he wants (the bite). This was an actual scenario and a dog did this. My pit bull who had very good obedience by the time he was 6mos. old.
Since then I have trained a countless number of dogs and for me , no obedience before bite work works best for me and my situation.
Hope this clears everything up.

Greg

He is your friend, your partner, your defender, your dog. You are his life, his love, his leader. He will be yours, faithful and true, to the last beat of his heart. You owe it to him to be worthy of such devotion."