Hi Alicia! I read your post and my problem is that I have a hard time trying to figure out what I'm writing. Just when I think it's third person single. I think no, deep POV. I'm going to reread what you said and maybe it will click!:)

Murph? Where have you been? I read your comment on Jordan's blog. And it seemed timely. I heard through the grapevine that your dating someone else after you turned Babs and I down. :( I hope you'll reconsider? Maybe? Please!!!!:)

Babs:Gee, thanks for the clarification. For a minute there I thought I was missing out on an all girl threesome (insert me wiping my brow here) I'm glad we got that settled. My husband would have been really upset to discover that I was, and he wasn't even invited.:D

Hi Alicia:

I did have a question on your post today. Should I have posted it here?

Em, I should have also said that you don't have to choose just one. Many writers go from single-third into deep POV at high-action or high-emotion moments. In fact, that's probably the most common approach in romance these days, and in the more character-driven mysteries. Don't feel like you have to choose one approach and stick with it forever.

I tend to start a scene in a slightly more distant POV so that I can establish setting and situation, and then get deeper into character voice as I get into the scene. Whatever works, works!

Great post, Alicia. As I've mentioned I've attempted deep POV in my historical novel, and it's true, it doesn't work in every situation. I find myself switching to narration in action scenes. I've been criticized heavily for writing this way by people who should know better. I kept thinking how can my model, Guthrie, win a Pulitzer using these techniques, but now they are taboo. Fortunately your writings on deep POV have clarified issues for me.

Wes, I think that emotion scenes are great from a deeper POV. I would just suggest a gradual descent in those scenes, maybe starting the scene in omniscient maybe, to set the scene up, and then just get deeper and deeper until you're speaking in his voice. Then the change won't be jarring.Alicia

About deep POV or POV period as it pertains to the romance genre and sex scenes in particular.

In your opinion, do you think that the H/H POV - and I'm really hoping it's deep during these kinds of scenes, can both be successfully written into the one scene - or do you maintain that during intimate scenes such as these - one POV character should carry it?

I'm asking because I've decided that I write in the heroine's POV until she either gives in - or gets off - or both...lucky girl! And then I'll switch to my hero's POV. Boy, now that I think about it? I guess this is my 'world view' therefore it's art imitating life, right? Because I maintain, that a women should always see to herself first - and then worry about the guy...if she's not too exhausted, that is.:D

I’M KIDDING!...Well, sort of.;)

Seriously, if the transition from one POV to the other is non jarring - do you think it works and is generally accepted or would this only distract from let’s say, an editor’s perspective? Do you see more single POV or a good combination of both H/H POV come across your desk?

Again, I’m only asking because I have noticed that even when a writer - writes fluidly throughout the story tapping into the POV of the H/H - when it comes to the sex scenes most stick to the heroine’s POV exclusively. And this inquiring mind would like to know why?ThanksMurphy

Don't give me that BS, Murphy. You are not kidding. Nor should you. Of course "a women should always see to herself first". That what makes some men great lovers. Pick up a copy of SHE COMES FIRST. It's on Amazon. If more men thought like that, more people would be happy.

Oh, yeah, we're supposed to be discussing writing. Now that I'm trying my hand at a romance, I've found writing from the heroine's POV comes (sorry) naturally. The market is female, and they will identify more with the woman and telling the story thru her eyes will convey more to the readers. But what do I know, I've never writtten a romance before. But I do know you are so full of BS your eyes are brown.

Murph lol! And I guess on my earlier comment I should've mentioned your comment about the breaking up and dating thing which was funny btw.:) Sorry!I write from the heroine's pov NOT because I think the reader will identitify with it better. If your doing a good job with your style than the reader will go with it. I do have a problem expressing deep enough perspective from the hero's pov, WES, because I don't know what goes on in a man's mind that I tend to stay out of there. But good for you to be writing from a female pov. It can be done.:) I remember a really great Romance writer and his stories were excellent. Best Sellers even and his publisher hid the fact that he was a guy becuase they were afraid that women wouldn't like it. He made a fortune! :)Em

Hmmm...? Wes, the title of that book, is that in a literal or figurative context? (insert shrug) Either way I would think it makes great fiction, right? Because HELLO? Men actually have to read the darn thing to turn it into any woman's reality. And um, FYI, I snuck the 'I'm kidding' in there just for the men among the blog - because you're right - I wasn't kidding! Shoot me! I was however, attempting to circumvent getting accused of male bashing again (a prevalent theme, I'm afraid).:D

Again, shoot me!

BUT to say that I'm so full of BS my eyes are brown? That wasn’t nice. (They're light blue BTW...very light blue with no flecks of brown in them) -- And as such, (you really have to imagine me sticking my chin out and making a really superior smarmy face at you for the following point to carry;)) - I feel that this reply just cemented your deeply ingrained MALE perspective on things - because you took a small observation buried in the middle of my comment and chose to lambaste me for it. Tsk, tsk, tsk....in the end? Me thinks you doth protest too much. hehehehe

Em, I thought it was something like that. No worries. :) And what do you mean you tend to stay out of there (as in a guy's head) I'm in my honey's head messing things up all the time. It's sooooo much fun! You should try it. You get some very interesting material to work with as well. Such a bonus!;)Murphy

Never be shy - especially around here - because as you can see, no one is.:)

As far as levels in first person? Alicia will have a stunningly perfect answer for you (don't get me started:))I LOVE YOU ALICIA! I would say, that I do believe that first person POV has different 'narrative' levels. Maybe these are due to growth of your character through time or situations, that your character has had to face during the story exposed to the reader. Thus, justifiable - and that is the key to first person POV. They are to be trusted and believable at all times - authentic. The author has to be prepared at certain points - to make their character vulnerable to life's foibles but not so much that they can't be trusted again by the reader. It's a fine line - but I think it can be done if you’re paying attention. Just my two cents.:)

Wes, I find that hard to believe. Especially when you are so quick to be pushing that darn book!

Babs, I work in sales, sales management, or finance, and the first requirement of sales is being able to accept rejection. It's prepared me for sending queries and submissions. What's the worst an agent or editor can say? "No" Actually, that's not the worst. One very well-known editor became very personal in his critique of my MS. I don't know this for a fact, but I'll bet the farm it's because my world view on a subject is totally opposite of that in one of his best sellers. I'll never know, though. But he's acquired numerous best sellers, and I'm unpublished.

Murph, what works works. I think that halfway through a love scene is a good place to switch POV (and if you're a purist, just start a new chapter with the new POV :).

Wes, I think when you get a really personal response, you've hit a nerve (maybe a negative one), because otherwise he'd be neutral in a rejection. And I bet you're right that it's a worldview conflict-- that something about the way you present the world offended the editor. But that's sort of good-- it means your worldview is coming through in your voice. That's good, right?

Petronella, yes, first person is deep in the sense that you are speaking with the character's voice, not your own.

But first-person can be more than just deep. The first-person narrator can have an attitude, a reason for telling this story. And the first-person narrator can lie and distort and confuse too. :)Alicia

Yes, Alicia, I viewed it as a good thing in that I was able to communicate well enough that the famous editor felt a challenge to one of his best known books. Not the one that won a Pulitzer for its author, but one that is probably better know.

I just wanted to poke my head in here with my 2 cents on how to avoid the dreaded "mantasy" (love that phrase). Just writing it from her perspective isn't enough, I'm afraid to say, as I've read some stories supposedly written by females from the female perspective that I'd consider a mantasy.

After thinking about it for a bit, I think it comes down to emotions. I'm not talking about needing to show the H/H all lovey-dovey. I'm talking about the emotions that you, the writer, create in the reader. After all, all stories are just as much (if not more) about creating emotions in the reader as explaining plot or creating characters. Without an emotional connection to the story, the reader won't get anything from it and won't ever read your next book.

In a romance, the most valuable emotion you can create within the reader is anticipation. Think "Moonlighting" and the sexual tension. Why do I think this is the most important emotion? Because descriptions of actions, no matter how sexual in nature, are just words on a page unless the reader feels involved. The reader can't feel the actual physical sensations described, but they can get close if they're "in the moment". How do you get them involved and in the moment? With "emotional foreplay" - anticipation.

So, as you're writing, ask yourself if the things you're including are increasing or decreasing the sexual tension between the H/H, if it will create anticipation for the reader. Feedback readers might not be able to tell you why they're not involved. They might say that they don't think a real female would ever act like the one you're creating. As the author, you might react with, "Well, this one does." But what those readers are really saying is that they can't identify with the character. This is fiction, you don't have to put every detail in (when was the last time you read about a character going to the bathroom). Similarly, only put character actions in if it will increase the sexual tension between H/H and not distract from it. Only include details if it will increase the reader's anticipation for what will happen next.

Hi, Jami. Thanks for the tips. They are well taken. Obviously this is large experiment for me, and it might fall flat. But I believe my writing has improved because of the stretch. We'll see.

I mention the following just to kid around, but I believe Erica Jong wrote a long discussion of bathroom procedures in various countries, actually toilets and how they functioned. That was just one aspect of FEAR OF FLYING that didn't resonate with me.

Point taken about the bathroom stuff. :) I should know better than to use absolutes because some ahem, unique, writer somewhere has written just about everything.

Believe me when I say I wasn't picking on you personally. As I've mentioned, I've read plenty of stories written by females with the problem, and wouldn't it be awesome if you could beat them at it. :) And as you said, if nothing else, it will be a good learning exercise.

You guys crack me up. I needed a giggle today, and this comment thread provided several. So awesome.

My $.02 on 1st pov --Make sure you stay in scene. First person has many pitfalls, and one is the tendency for characters to ruminate, explain, summarize, etc. Narrative summary is not as exciting as action or dialogue.

If your story sounds as though you're hearing about events over a cup of coffee with a friend, rather than experiencing the events by that friend's side, then you're out of scene and into summary.

The posts on from whose POV it is best to show a sex or erotic scene have caught my interest because I'm caught between letting my male character, who is alien and not flesh and blood, narrate the scene, or to let the woman recently arrived from Earth narrate.

It's an important scene for both, for at the end of it she will have been changed into a synth - the same kind of being he is - and he will have his mate.

Hi Theresa! You’ve been missed around here - glad you’re back - and I really hope all is well with you and yours.

Hi Petronella!

Ignore Wes.:D

I'm sure I'm gonna hear about that....but, (insert a flick of my hair here) I can deal with that.I have a question. Does she know that she will be his mate once they connect through the scene? I ask because motivation may have a large hand on how you might want to plot this. I mean, maybe there are certain rituals or things that only he would know that needed to be completed between them - and if it's through her POV the reader won't get these specific nuances (which could be totally hot btw). In my mind you have more of an opportunity in a scene like this -than let’s say in a traditional sex scene. You can leave the reader going: “holy crap! I haven’t been there! I haven’t done that! (Hehehe) The difference, the way I see it, is that if you do this scene through the female POV she is going to process the ‘doing and consequent feelings’ from her own traditional experience and knowledge – while if you hand it over to him and delve into his POV - the ‘doing and how she reacts to it can be fully explored by his unique perspective because it’s literally out of this world, right? ;) ’ We’d get more of an experience because we’d be given his spin of things and then have to process it through our eyes so double the fun - if that makes sense. The action and reactions are processed by the reader and heroine at the same time - learning this new stuff together...sooooo much more exciting. Just my .02. And what did I say about no one being shy around here? Some of the um, other comments? Had even a hard ass like me blushing...go figure.:D

The number one advice I can give Wes is: Respect your characters. Women characters are people too-- not emblems, not fantasies, not stereotypes. I'm sure you do that already!

But I have to say, it's women writers who get me annoyed here, and I include myself-- the men are given these fully realized personalities, lots of cool conflict, many layers, etc. The women are not so fleshed out, and I wonder if we still think that men are more interesting than women? I was just reading a book, theoretically a romance-- I mean, a hetero romance-- where the hero's nine best friends are all given far more time and love by the author than the heroine. And it's a woman author, and goodness knows, I've done that too. I really don't think men are more interesting, but maybe they're more fun to write? Alicia

That's a really good point Alicia. I'm going to think about that because when I first read this I thought - I don't do that...but then, the voice of reason whispered in my head: "Wait Murphy - are you sure? This is Alicia talking...come on, read her comment again. Absorb it," that naught and seductive siren purred. "You know she's always right..."So, I did - and you were - and crapatolla! In the immortal words of Ricky Ricardo? "Lucy's got some esplanin' to do to." Now, in my defense however, I would say that my heroine is interesting by default (no excuse btw but I’m just saying) - I accomplish this through the eyes of my hero and the way that he views her. Through his eyes she is totally awesome - real, with all kinds of faults and moods and impossible attitudes that really turn him on.:D So, does that count?

Wow, you are so right with this point. Although I, personally, don't think the problem comes down to us thinking that men are more interesting. Maybe it's that a part of us will always identify with the heroine, so no matter how many layers we give her, it doesn't feel like we're "discovering" her. While with the heroes, we can't identify as strongly and therefore we feel like we're learning about him at the same time as the heroine. So, in that respect, yes, maybe they're more fun to write because there's more mystery there.

Jami G.(Whose heroine is layered and messed up beyond the wazoo, but she's still not a mystery. Now my hero on the other hand... *sigh*)

OMG!!!! I can't believe I'm going to let Murphy get away with that shot about ignore Wes. But I am. OK, you can say I have round heels for being such a pushover. BUT isn't the POV dictated by who the market is, what one wants to explore, what the thesis is (yeah, I know it's the story that trumps everything) and which character can portray these things the best? So the real answer to who's (sp?) POV should be used depends on the above. At this point, given what I know about the story line, I think the heroine will go thru the greatest change and be the most interesting character.

Murphy, I'll deal with you later via private email.

I offer a challenge. I'm trying to write a story from a competent woman's POV. For you women reading this thread, try writing, if you already haven't, a 5,000 word story from an man's POV where the guy is not a horndog or some other stereotype. Murphy?

You make a valid point: use the POV that can portray things the best. Given our comments with Alicia, I think a man who finds women a mystery might be able to write a romance with a more interesting female character, assuming they can avoid the mantasy pitfall.

And as to your challenge, although my WIP is a trilogy written from the heroine's POV, I've also written 61K words for the hero's POV that may never see the light of day. I felt like I needed to do this to understand his motivations and reactions. The interesting thing is that the story from her point of view is very plot-driven (although character-focused), however, from his point of view, the story is pure romance. For this reason alone, I'd never be able to integrate the two. My hero is not a typical alpha in that he's not a jerk. :) He has definite alpha qualities in his drive and determination, but he also has way too much tortured soul to ever be arrogant. I think you'd like him. :) My male feedback readers actually tend to enjoy my story even more than my female feedback readers and I think he's a big part of the reason.

Wes says:man's POV where the guy is not a horndogMurphy says:Gee, there's actually men out there that aren't? Jami says: My hero is not a typical alpha in that he's not a jerk. :)Murphy says:I rest my case...but hey, you guys are free to argue the point.;D

Em: You only say that as you’ll not go into your hero's head. And that is limiting. We’ve talked about this before. Anyone can be mysterious and interesting when the less than exciting things are held back.

Alicia, I'd like to read your book.:)

I do agree with Jami. That the typical alpha males are jerks.

Wes, your challenge has intrigued me. I'll give it some thought.

Murphy, like Em, I'm surprised that you have a heroine with an attitude. You, being so unassuming and all. LOL Are you going to do Wes’s challenge? He did call you out.

Babs, try it. You send me your first 5,000 words and I'll send you mine. This is not really a contest in my mind. Rather I feel like I learned a bit more about writing by writing in a woman's POV, and others might benefit from writing from a different gender's POV. My historical fiction is totally thru three men's POV: a young man coming of age in a foriegn land, a black American slave, and a Mexican peasant from Taos, NM (1821). However I do have two strong women characters, particularly Willow Woman who was a slave at the Taos Pueblo before she married the Mexican man.

Wes, I am considering the female viewpoint over that of the male. One reason being that he's already had a sex scene with another woman who died as a result of him attempting to turn her into a synth.

Murphy, all kinds of ideas are running through my head now. I like the idea of special rituals. My female character does not know she will become the male characters mate. She is not even aware she is going to be turned into a synth.

I picked her as POV character for the sex scene because I want to show him from her viewpoint.

Holy crap P -- Your hero is that good some poor girl actually died doing the deed with him? Sounds like quite a guy! (insert one brow arched with great interest, as all kinds of ideas are running through my head now) :D

I think some men written by women ARE stereotypes, but usually sort of in a positive way. I don't mean that it's positive being a stereotype, but some of these guys are too good to be true. But that's not it-- I mean, lots of men are wonderful in real life. So what makes these guys in fiction "too good to be true," given that I don't think that men and goodness are in any way contradictory?

Yes, I agree with you on your "too good to be true" comment. That's actually why I wrote the supplementary 61K words from my hero's perspective. Before I did that, I had the same opinion of his perfection as the heroine. Now I know how messed up he truly is - he just hides it well. :)

Alicia? Don't take this the wrong way but what the f@#%? Can you spell ambiguous? Well, of course you can. Look who I'm talking to. I only meant that...(here's me speaking in a conspiratorial whisper) can I have some of whatever you were smoking before you posted that last comment. Seriously, it had to be good stuff.

I’m ducking and ...(Insert me putting my hands up to ward off the offended masses) I’m kidding...or was I?

Of course I was kidding! I think *grumble - grumble* you’ve a valid point in what you’re saying. And I’m proud to say I arrived at this stellar thought - that I’m about to share - by reading this comment thread - WAY TO GO ALL YOU GUYS- especially Em:)!

I think we emphasize as women writers (and Wes too :D - because god only knows I don’t want to be called on the carpet again - hi Wes *waves*) the positive things the opposite sex does within the scope of our stories. I mean, aren’t we as writers, trying to find the conflict and make that all work out to a logical conclusion in our stories? So, to balance the conflict/bad, we have to highlight the good. It has to overshadow it in some cases. And there’s a plan, right? A map? But in real life, isn’t there stuff that’s just out there - like my honey having to go to the grocery store and failing miserably at the task kind of stuff. Things that we could include in our stories because it makes our characters more human - but do we include them? Not always, especially in romance - and the reason we don’t, I think, is because it makes our characters too human and real. And the draw of that alpha male, who has no faults, problems or indecisions to face, well, the whole idea of him his darn near intoxicating, isn’t it? Stereotype? Hell yeah, bring it on...I love reading in fantasy land. In my own home and in everyday life however, would I want my honey to be the stereotypical alpha male? Not on your life – those guys are too predictable. I actually, like a guy who comes home with magic beans on occasion - who stumbles and tries to explain why the beans he’s brought home today - are totally awesome! Because you know? On the rare occasion, they are....And I love surprises. How many surprises do we get from an alpha male? (Insert me tapping my index fingernail to my front tooth here.) Not too many! BUT isn’t that the point on why we love to read them?...Hmmm...? Now who sounds like she’s been smoking the weed. Crap!

Yes, anyone can join in. Teresa and Alicia tolerate a fair amount of silliness, but truthfully, I've learned more from this blog (after going through every single old post) than I did from 10 grammar/writing craft books I'd checked out from the library. They both are great and have so much to teach us - soak it in. :)

Murph, (wave back). I'm not well read in romance, but I believe you have a good point in "How many surprises do we get from an alpha male?" That has become my biggest challenge since I started my experiment in writing in this genre.

Murphy, Wes... She wasn't killed while doing the deed and it wasn't my synth male who was directly responsible for her death. It was another synth who cut the poor female open so it could observe her changing into a synth. More than you ever wanted to know, right?

Thank-you for the warm welcome. My WIP is a contemporary romance. I want to incorporate some humor in this project but it doesn't come very natuarally to me. Murphy, I've been reading some of your comments. Do you write contemporary? Your voice is strong and I'd be very interested to get your thoughts on some ideas I have for my story.Geri

I understand about the humor issue. My WIP is not necessarily "dark", but things are "dire", so I find it virtually impossible to incorporate any levity into it. If my characters aren't feeling the humor, then I can't - as an author - put it in myself. I haven't decided yet if that's a good or bad thing.

You can email me and if I can help you out I will. If not, maybe I can point you in the direction of someone else who can. I do encourage you to listen to the other people who are commenting on this blog. They're a funny, smart and intelligent group of people who have taught me a great deal about my craft. I think you'll learn plenty of great things that will come in handy just reading the posts!:)Murphy

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