39 COMMENTS

The Lisbon Treaty states: “Any member state may decide to withdraw from the Union in accordance with its own constitutional requirements”. The people had spoken in a referendum to leave the EU, not the MP’s. and it’s the duty of any ruling government to carry out the wishes of their people.

Chas, I would have thought the people’s votes constituted common sense, that’s how Governments are voted in or out. We know since Brexit the so called specialists of all fields have all got it wrong. Theresa has said Brexit means Brexit and it will happen, even the EU has now accepted the fact.

You are describing populism, not constitutional democracy with checks and balances. Alex de Toqueville speaks in depth of popular democracy which easily turns into mobocracy without careful intellectal input. Yes, there is much value in intellectual endeavour, though I agree intellectual work may not set well with adherents of popular democracies, ie, mob politics. See for example Trump’s manipulation of popular sentiments for his own ends.

A referendum is only advisory in a legal sense. The actual decision to ratify requires Parliamentary scrutiny and a Parliamentary vote. It’s all still up for grabs.
Frustrating innit? Next thing will be the slimy Farage abandoning Trump’s racism and returning to Britain to stir up some of his own.

Stefanjo, no problem then, so why are the remainders so concerned and why did Cameron quit the following day if he thought a referendum was only an advisory suggestion and if so why the need of a referendum in the first place if it basically meant nothing. Are you now suggesting that if the remainders had won, the Brexit voters also had a right to apply for Parliamentary scrutiny due to that decision, in which case it would have exposed the lies of the “fear” campaign which were all conjectures anyway. Brexit means Brexit, get over it.
As for Farage, he will go down in history as the person that broke the monopoly of the EU. Nothing slimy about him, just wanted Britain to control its own borders and to be a self governing country and trade as under the original common market agreement and not as a political establishment (which many other EU members are now having second thoughts) what’s wrong with that. Lets face it, if the Junker crowd had given Cameron some little hope, who knows, we may have remained in the EU. So don’t put all the blame on Farage, blame the pig headed EU. Strange how the talk amongst EU members now admit that changes need to be made. Bit late innit. don’t you think!.

“NOTHING will stand in the way of Britain leaving the European Union as Theresa May is set to trigger Article 50 WITHOUT calling a vote in the House of Commons”. You should also read between the lines of the high court Judge.

chas, whether we remain or leave makes no difference to me as I have said many times before, being a pensioner in Spain does have it’s merits. But, and shall repeat, if I lived in the UK or was able to vote it would have been a vote to leave.
We shall wait and see the final outcome of the Brexit vote and hopefully Article 50 will be activated sooner than latter and can see the “fear” factor has now turned tables, for what reason I don’t know, could it be the self interest of self seeking people to remain, certainly not for the freedom of the country they had left or intend to leave.
Remember thousands of British and commonwealth lives were lost fighting for the freedom of Europe and yet the remainders are quite willing to knuckle down under a few unelected people. Theresa May will win regardless, mark my words.

Wonder what Erdogan would think of your reply, and to think you wish him to be a participating partner in the EU which Britain would be part of. Chas, please, do me a favour and don’t think a British “no” vote would stop Turkey from joining, the Juncker crowd would just brush the “no” vote to one side.

Nowhere have I suggested Turkey should be part of EU. Erdogan’s Turkey exemplfies incompatability with democratic principles with notable exception of EU bankster interests which would support entry.
I have always opposed the EU’s non-democratic scheming elite, and largely agree with Brexit. The problem for me is the whole thing seemed to be so poorly handled, though with the current state of affairs in UK and Brussels I suppose that is to be expected. Likely it took this clash to open an honest dialogue. Let’s not make unfounded assumptions.

chas you are correct in saying nowhere had you suggested that Turkey should be part of the EU and equally nowhere had you mentioned that you largely agree with Brexit. Most of your rhetoric had been directed against the will of the democratic vote of the people. In doing do so it indicated that your preference was to be a remainder which led to the assumption of accepting Turkey at some point becoming a member of the EU fold. We all know the problems that the EU has with Turkey but they will jiggle around it somehow but with Brexit it would not be the concern of the UK but the EU. And as Farage would say, the door would be closed to Britain of 75 million more people.
Apologies if Turkey had been mentioned but in doing so please clarify your position more clearly.

Chas,
Ropespierre was an intellectual and a lawyer who organise the murder of the real revolutionary – Danton.
My experience of intellectuals is that they are useless in the real world, they deal in theories not practice.
It is very arrogant to refer to the rational re-action of ordinary people to the fascist contemptuous mentality that exists in politics in Europe and the USA as ‘populism’. I say it is the sound of democracy in action, the second will be a physical re-action – actual revolution. Where will the intellectuals be, on the front line – I don’t think so.

Stuart, well said. Can’t understand people that are bad losers. A vote is a vote and basically it’s not really a case of losing but a case of knowing the difference between democracy and being controlled by a group of fascist.

The goal is the continouous iterative process of theory and practice – not one or the other. With each iteration the theory, hence practice reaches for a better solution to the problem at hand, whether in governance, science or brick laying.
No, we don’t want armchair intellectuals anymore than thoughtless mobs running our affairs. The American and French experiments in government were always predicated on an informed public. Sadly ‘informed’ has been reduced to ‘propagandized.’ As we can see in, for example, the American electoral process, the EU and Brexit campaigns.

Well I think we tend to differ on the wording of ‘rational’. The leave campaign was won on a ‘rational’ vote of maintaining our borders, control of our country and laws, our own democracy, freedom of free trade with the rest of the World, etc etc. Do you honestly believe it would have been ‘rational’ to remain in the EU. I think you should read up on Churchill and Thatcher’s views regarding the EU instead of the likes of the Juncker crowd and big businesses.

The Nose – Critical reading and reflection are necessary to get things right before comments. In previous posts I had in fact indicated my ‘heart’s’ preference for Brexit, but also indicated that Brexit might cause trouble for UK people here, so in that sense my ‘head’ urged caution.
You got that one wrong, too.

chas, you may have mentioned your ‘heart’s’ preference for Brexit on previous posts but not on this post, whereas I had also mentioned my ‘heart’s’ preference for Brexit on previous posts but also on this post. That’s why I mentioned it would have been more helpful if you had clarified your position more clearly. Who knows, you may have changed your mind from your previous ‘heart’s’ preference for Brexit. Don’t think I got it wrong. Once again, and I could be “wrong”, could you please indicate on this posting where you mention “Brexit might cause trouble for UK people Here”. Have I got that one wrong also. As you rightly say “Critical reading and reflection are necessary to get things right before comments”.

Chas,
Aristotle had the time to ‘rationalise ‘ because he lived in a slave owning society, leaving him, an Athenian lots of time to sit and ponder. With the industrial revolution the serf moved from exhaustion and bad diet of an agrarian existence to an industrial one with an even worse diet and a polluted environment.

With the end of WW11, the American working man had plenty of spare time – to think, especially the young, same goes for the European young – voila – the 60s’ revolution in music, past times, sexuality and modes of living.

The elites, especially in the USA and to a lesser extent the UK, saw the danger that spare time gave the working class young time to stand back and look and what they saw, they did’nt like. So began the indoctranisation of – consumerism and the concomitant consumer debt regime.

In the Netherlands a quiet revolution happened led by the famous ‘Provos’ – Provisional Government of the Netherlands. In Germany, not surprisingly the RAF and Beider Meinhof ‘outlaws’.

Now the very thing that allows big business to ruthlessly grow their profits – digitalisation has become a double edged sword with – social media.

The usual organs of elite control, TV, print media have proved to be impotent to control the serfs and the small percentage of ‘freethinkers/democrats’ from destroying the elite’s propoganda machine that relentlessly promoted Campaign Fear for the Remain/Big Business junta using social media and comments sections. Day after day they pounded the serfs with fear,fear,fear – it did’nt work for them but against them. The same thing with the vicious anti-Corbyn lies and propaganda. They strengthened both Brexiteers and Corbyn supporters. That the Labour party has been hi-jacked for decades by self seeking metros, many public school scum and other ruthless social climbers is not lost on the British working class who can see that principles are not something that the Blairites can bank. Why are the Blairties so incensed by Corbyn – because they might not be re-elected and wil lose their ‘right’ to ride on the Westminster gravy train and the directorships that await them from kissing the tush of big business when in ‘power’.
Populism in all it’s negativity is the correct word to use when describing Eastern Europe. they don’t need any external religious dogmatism like Islam imported into their countries, they have their own, Catholic/Russian Orthodox medieval mentality. I don’t think the Germans and French even begin to see the danger – vamos a ver.

The term ‘rationalize’ in current usage does not carry Aristotle’s original nuanced meaning of ‘ratio’, ie, ‘rational’, that is a balanced, considered thinking. The discussion is found in The Ethics in Aristotle’s criticism of Plato’s Republic, and is again much elaborated in Aristotle’s de Anima. ‘Ratio’ refers to thinking as an intrinsic human process which can actualize the highest human potential that of measuring, contemplative beings. The motive force, ie, the animating force – hence ‘de anima’ – that separates rocks from vegetation from beasts from humankind is this potential for a certain kind of activity lalanced, considered thought, ie, ‘ratio.’
But the term ‘rationalize’ for the past century became a pop psychology term referring to an argument that strips away nuanced detail to support one’s theory, which is largely what Plato did when defining the ‘good’ by using formalistic gemetry as a model rather than referring to living processes as did Aristotle.
If we dismissed arguments by historic figures who kept slaves, serfs or those who abused workers, we would have few figures or ideas to discuss.
But I do agree with much of the rest of what you have said.

“Those who fail to learn from history are doomed to repeat it”. Churchill quoting George Santayana.
Your view of human history and intellect appears short. I believe the people you cite would also find your comment glib and anti-intellectual.

chas, you do talk a lot of crap sometimes quoting chapters and verse. Forget the past, it’s history, think of the future. Do you think the forthcoming negotiations between the UK and the EU will be quoting passages from Aristotle or will they be discussing the future. What part of history are you talking about. My part of history which I am more concerned about is seeing the devastation caused by 20th century wars, not what some guy said back in year dot. My part of history is standing in the center of Monte Cassino and seeing the complete destruction caused by the bombing of a once beautiful monastery.. Have stood in front and admired the great works of Michelangelo’s Pieta (when just protected by a rope and not bullet proof glass). Admired the painting of “The Last Supper” by da Vinci whilst under restoration, too many things to list I’m afraid. That’s my history and pleased to wake every morning and think yesterday was history and not what Aristotle said in year dot.
I once asked an American where did he think the horses came from in America, he replied, “the red indians”. Stand in front of the statue of Michelangelo’s beautifully physical sculpture of “David”. Did you know if you dressed him he would look grotesque. We had wars in the days of Aristotle and we have wars today. tell me what have we learned. Now that’s history. Do me a favour chas.

cbas, is this the part of history you’re talking about which the human species never learn and still do not learn. The only people that suffer are the innocent I visited the monastery after the destruction, so what multiple destructions have you ever seen from your armchair. Btw, the Americans paid for the re-construction. So please don’t quote from the guy in year dot who knew nothing about the 20th century.

“Cassino was a small Italian town on the Rapid River in the center of the Gustav Line, in a mountainous area, topped by a hill where an Abbey and Benedictine monastery, stood sixth century.
Interestingly, the monastery was not occupied by German troops. The only German units that closed over the Liri in Cassino were deployed in the town, “having been agreed by the German command that the monastery was a historical monument and should not be turned into strength”. It was an error of appreciation ally that turned into a fortress Monte Cassino. Convinced that the Germans had fortified the monastery, they launched a terrifying airstrike on it on February 15 of 1944 . In its buildings, the only occupants were Cassino monks and civilians who had come to take refuge in that holy place. (This was not recognized as a terrible mistake by the US until 1969)”.

The Nose asks “..what multiple destructions have you ever seen from your armchair.” I have never been an armchair academic.
All my research-practice has been in the field in 3 continents in numerous countries with dictators, violence and indifference to cruelty. Spent most of my active years counselling the young and their families who have suffered abuse?
Your assumptions have been far off the mark.

chas, I don’t reject intellectual tradition but traditions that are purely words that go back centuries have no place in today’s life as far as I’m concerned. The people that created the art and architecture I mentioned were not taught by words but a gift, a special gift that millions upon millions of people queue to see. Take the Pieta for instance, Michelangelo was 21 years old when he created that from a large block of marble.. He was not an intellectual but a craftsman whose works of art are equally as important if not more than some past so called scholars. I bet more people have seen those works of art than read the words of Aristotle or others.
As for today my main concern is for Britain and was pleased the the vote was to leave and feel sure that Brexit is far better off in the long run than to remain in a corrupt club such as the EU. Not too perturb by the people that wish to remain in the EU as it’s mainly from their own selfish point of view and not have the spirit to up and go like those in Marbella. Feel sorry for people that may lose their illegal homes through no fault of their own the same as people losing their homes through wars and earthquakes. That’s life I suppose and I take each valuable day as it comes.
Btw, I do have children that have Phds, masters and degrees. Gr.children with degrees and about to take their masters. Don’t know what they are talking about, but they do come to me for, shall we say”, practical advice, such as “Pop, how do I really get a perfect finish to gloss paint”. To which I usually reply to such questions. “Did they not teach you that at Uni”.

Respect runs in several directions: in the first instance between people who take the time to reflect before making false prejudicial accusations; in the second instance, understanding that intellectual discourse, practical activity, science, etc., entails continuous iteration between in-the-world practical experience and thought construction, the latter which gives new perceptions and insight in subsequent practice. Practice does not exist without the theoretical. The theory doesn’t exist without the practical. Thats how brain development and learning works, accept it or not.
An anti-intellectual stance indicates that one’s interests lie in a different place governed by emotion and bias. Yes, anti-intellectuals do deserve human respect, but insisting that anti-intellectual opinions are on equal footing with knowledge does not. Democracy does not mean that facts and opinions are equal.
If you hadn’t dismissed the ancient founders of the Western cultural tradition as irrelevant to an understanding of today’s practical affairs you would understand that current logic, ethics, religious thought, art and psychology all have direct, deep and lasting roots in the work of Alexander the Great’s tutor, Aristotle and that tradition. His work is still current. At least as remarkable as The work of Michelangelo, who, by the way, in addition to being a gifted sculptor was also an intellectual. I know that because I read.
So you can raille away into the wind. I’m done with this.

stefanjo. I hope you have noted the vast majority of people who voted that they are quite content with their life in Spain. It’s a pity you are not, insofar as you are constantly knocking Spain or anything to do with Spain or with comments made by people. Something bad has turned your life into being a nasty person. If the Brexit vote makes life harder for you to live in this wonderful climate country had you thought of say, packing your bags and to join those from Marbella. I would be one of those that would gladly say “Vamos”, but if you really wish to remain in Spain, we the Brexit crowd, will try and help you as it would appear you need a lot of help. Btw, perhaps I should also mention I continue leaving tips, still smoke, quite happy to pay taxes to both countries and the WFA and the drop in sterling value does not really affect me. That’s why I love living in Spain, and that’s no B/S. Can you really say the same. If you can then I don’t know why you are such a nasty person.

Nose, you have had more aliases on the OP than hot dinners. I pity your children, who must cringe at the ignorant drivel you write on this website. To not even know Michelangelo was an intellectual is reason enough to dismiss 99.9% of what you write, however please do keep to topic. Regarding Teresa May invoking Brexit, the subject of this post, we will have to wait and see. You said “that’s how Governments are voted in or out”, but referendums are not general elections and parliament, in my opinion, needs to have the last say on this, and preferably with a general election.

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