Monday, October 15, 2018

Since I’m hinting at it, here’s my shameless plug: if you can sit through four hours of football and its stoppage time, you can’t justify calling baseball boring. October belongs to America’s pastime. I feel that this whole landscape will look different a decade from now, with football at the lower half of the totem pole.

My opinion isn’t entirely biased. This issue with politics bleeding into the discussion is a serious crutch for an otherwise praised NFL, and until that’s no longer a factor, people are going to shift away. The NBA waters are nice these days too, I’m hearing.

(As always, views expressed in the article lede and comments are the views of the individual commenters and the submitter of the article and do not represent the views of Baseball Think Factory or its owner.)

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So apparently Beto is touting his crossover appeal by noting that his lifelong Republican mother is supporting him. But aside from that being really sad as an argument, it isn’t even true.

From the link in #582:

A copy of Melissa O'Rourke's voting record, which CNN's KFile requested from the El Paso County Elections Department, shows she's voted in Democratic primaries in 15 of the last 17 primary elections she has participated, including Democratic party primaries in 2000, 2008, 2012, and 2016 that included presidential primaries.

Based on his comments here, I believe our own BDC has participated in far more Texas GOP primaries than that. You'd think his endorsement would be worth more than the guy's own mother. Poor staff work to not already have "BDC for Beto" ads running 24/7. Or is BDC's support for Ted Cruz's 2016 Presidential Campaign disqualifying to today's Democrats? They must not really want to win.

I am a capitalist to my bones,” Sen. Warren tells New England Council,

And Trump says that he’s a very stable genius. Don’t think we need to accept such obvious lies whether from Warren or Trump.

In David's world you can't be a capitalist unless you want to dismantle all anti-trust and consumer protection laws, and change our national motto from "E Pluribus Unum" to "Caveat Emptor". So obviously Warren doesn't qualify.

If war continues, famine could engulf the country in the next three months, with 12 to 13 million civilians at risk of starvation, according to Lise Grande, the agency’s humanitarian coordinator for Yemen.

She told the BBC: “I think many of us felt as we went into the 21st century that it was unthinkable that we could see a famine like we saw in Ethiopia, that we saw in Bengal, that we saw in parts of the Soviet Union – that was just unacceptable.

“Many of us had the confidence that would never happen again and yet the reality is that in Yemen that is precisely what we are looking at.”

What else can we do but pray? None of our political leaders care about this.

Apologized? Quite the opposite, AFAIK. You got a link to this "apology"? In any event, I'll take that as conceding that Warren should have apologized long ago.

The problem for Warren isn't that she passed on some likely bogus family lore about traces of Native American ancestry in her lineage, it's that she claimed that was sufficient to be Native American for professional purposes. She was Harvard Law's first "woman of color".

The hilarious thing about her ad -- I watched it; it's several minutes long -- is that every time she shows a family member either alone or together they are white as a glass of whole milk. The juxtaposition of their milky whiteness with the themes of "Elizabeth Warren, Native American Truth Teller, Finally Vindicated!!" is comically bizarre.

606. Ray (CTL) Posted: October 16, 2018 at 10:17 PM (#5768358)
Can we take your above comment as an admission that it was Politifact who lied?

Politifact simply reported the DNA findings and let readers decide whether Trump had made a serious offer or not.

They "simply" started the tape late enough to deceive people as to what Trump had said.

So then, Andy? Did PolitiFact ***LIE***?!?!?!?!??!?! (Let me repeat this 128 times as you did when asking Jason if Trump is despicable.)

Would you people let this completely irrelevant sideshow go please? The President of the the US is giving aid and comfort to a totalitarian regime who just murdered a US based journalist and nobody is saying boo.

Ray, I didn't mean to pick on you personally, just that your post the most recent.

God! The POTUS is saying it's OK to murder and dismember dissident journalists, and people are discussing Elizabeth Warren's ethnic social contact claims 30 years aqo. Decline indeed!

For the third time, Ligonier Ministries has examined the State of Theology in the United States, conducted by LifeWay Research and based on interviews with 3,000 Americans. The survey, also conducted in 2014 and 2016, offers a detailed look at the favorite heresies of evangelicals and of Americans at large.

Ligonier wanted to know what Americans “believe about God, salvation, ethics, and the Bible.”

“Overall, US adults appear to have a superficial attachment to well-known Christian beliefs,” stated the ministry. “For example, a majority agreed that Jesus died on the cross for sin and that he rose from the dead.

“However, they rejected the Bible’s teaching on (1) the gravity of man’s sin, (2) the importance of the church’s gathering together for worship, and (3) the Holy Spirit,” stated Ligonier. For example:

More than two-thirds (69%) of Americans disagree that the smallest sin deserves eternal damnation—and 58 percent strongly disagree. Ligonier finds this “alarming.”
A majority of US adults (58%) said that worshiping alone or with one’s family is a valid replacement for regularly attending church. Only 30 percent disagree.
A majority of US adults (59%) say that the Holy Spirit is a force, not a personal being.

Would you people let this completely irrelevant sideshow go please? The President of the the US is giving aid and comfort to a totalitarian regime who just murdered a US based journalist and nobody is saying boo.

Ray, I didn't mean to pick on you personally, just that your post the most recent.

God! The POTUS is saying it's OK to murder and dismember dissident journalists, and people are discussing Elizabeth Warren's ethnic social contact claims 30 years aqo. Decline indeed!

I don't really know what people are expecting out of Saudi Arabia, though. If this were Bob Woodward disappearing after heading into the White House to ask Jared Kushner about a Russia backchannel you might have something, but it's Saudi Arabia and they're simply playing a different game. It's not surprising at all to me that this happened.

And indeed Saudi Arabia shows just why the lunatics such as Sam who are running around talking about Trump's "regime" are so crazy. Saudi Arabia shows what _actually_ happens when you have a totalitarian dictatorship. The Sams of the world trivialize all of that by screaming that Trump is the same thing.

--

Also, can Khashoggi really be described as merely a "journalist"? He seems to have been something more than that. For example from wiki: "In 2018, Khashoggi established a new political party called Democracy for the Arab World Now, posing a political threat to Crown Prince Mohammed." And of course his career as a journalist was fraught with peril and with upsetting the wrong hornets nests. American journalists seem to be describing him as a "journalist" in an apparent effort to elevate their own importance and pretend that they too operate under the same level of danger that he did, which is ridiculous.

I don't really know what people are expecting out of Saudi Arabia, though. If this were Bob Woodward disappearing after heading into the White House to ask Jared Kushner about a Russia backchannel you might have something, but it's Saudi Arabia and they're simply playing a different game. It's not surprising at all to me that this happened.

Bullshit.

This such ignorant twaddle that you should LITERALLY be embarrassed by your own ignorance for saying it.

I guarantee you that this does NOT happen if there were any other US President -- that means Hillary or Rubio or Cruz or Romney or Obama or McCain or you name it.

Saudi Arabia is supposed to be a nominal ally. They do not kidnap and dismember a journalist after pretty brazenly kidnapping him in their consulate in a friggin NATO member.

Also, can Khashoggi really be described as merely a "journalist"? He seems to have been something more than that. For example from wiki: "In 2018, Khashoggi established a new political party called Democracy for the Arab World Now, posing a political threat to Crown Prince Mohammed." And of course his career as a journalist was fraught with peril and with upsetting the wrong hornets nests. American journalists seem to be describing him as a "journalist" in an apparent effort to elevate their own importance and pretend that they too operate under the same level of danger that he did, which is ridiculous.

Congrats on demonstrating an even deeper level of ignorant twaddle.

You think that even Republican Senators - even Trump's new BFF Lindsay Graham, FFS - are going apeshit to make the WaPo happy? You think major corporations are putting SA on the naughty list to appease the WaPo? That even nominally sane neocons are flipping their #### for the WaPo?

Yes, Khashoggi is more than a journalist... again - he previously served in the Saudi government and was long seen a modernizing, westernizing element. He was no radical. As noted previously, he's basically a Saudi David Gergen.

He is - well, was - what one might call an ideal conduit for modernization... If there WERE to be a revolution in Saudi Arabia? Jamal Khassogi would be unlikely to be the guy leading it, but he would actually be the ideal candidate for all involved - including non-radicals in Saudi Arabia - to lead the transition period.

Sometimes your ignorance in service of defending the worst of Trump is just utterly jaw-dropping and appalling.

Sometimes your ignorance in service of defending the worst of Trump is just utterly jaw-dropping and appalling.

I didn't say anything about Trump. I don't know enough about the international relations involved to comment.

What seems to be the case is that the left can't imagine any reason why Trump is taking the position he is other than "Trump likes dictators who kill journalists." (*) The real issues at play are different from that.

(*) Well, they'd work a few cockholsters in there, so it's not actually something the left would say, but it's close enough.

What seems to be the case is that the left can't imagine any reason why Trump is taking the position he is other than "Trump likes dictators who kill journalists." (*) The real issues at play are different from than that.

No, they actually aren't. No normal US president would act this way. Well, actually, no normal US President would have to act this way, because no country would take such actions with a normal US President. Trump implicitly gives them license to act this way.

Ray, the fact that you are arguing that it's OK that the the POTUS is arguing that it's OK for a totalitarian regime to kill and dismember a US based journalist is quite sad indeed. Shame, shame, shame.

Is he literally saying it? No. Is his language and demeanor saying it? Absolutely. He's acting as their ####### press secretary!

I think I've figured out the disconnect here. I'm not informed enough to understand the international relations issues at play. You're not rational enough to understand them, at least when it comes to this issue.

I think I've figured out the disconnect here. I'm not informed enough to understand the international relations issues at play. You're not rational enough to understand them, at least when it comes to this issue.

I didn't say anything about Trump. I don't know enough about the international relations involved to comment.

What seems to be the case is that the left can't imagine any reason why Trump is taking the position he is other than "Trump likes dictators who kill journalists." (*) The real issues at play are different from than that.

(*) Well, they'd work a few cockholsters in there, so it's not actually something the left would say, but it's close enough.

IT'S NOT JUST THE LEFT FFS.

It's the left, the center, AND the right... at least, the normal, non-Trumpkin/non-crazy because Iran right (and hell, given Graham? Even some of them, too).

You mock anyone who is aghast at Trump's embrace of the world's worst autocrats, but here's the thing moron:

When to intervene, when not. These are hard choices. Foreign policy is sometimes a matter of picking the least bad option. There are costs and benefits to everything - including doing nothing. Where to apply influence, how to apply it, and yes - even sometimes to engage in that which isn't our best moral moments... serious matters that demand serious Presidents.

This bullshit?

This is a gimme. A 6 inch putt. Under any other President except Trump, this does not happen. It does not happen because for anyone except Trump, the Saudis would fear the repercussions. They'd worry about doing this inside the borders of a member of NATO. They'd worry about US support in the UN, in the international community - and particularly, the (previously) west-led US.

This is a rare case - even setting aside that the US apparently had intercepts and intel indicating that precisely this was in the offing - where the US literally had to do NOTHING to prevent this... Except be the US. Not even the "moral" US - even just the US worried about public opinion and international standing would do.

Allow me to put in terms you can grasp...

Imagine Dumbass Shitbag Smurf supplants Papa Smurf as leader of the Smurf village. Then, imagine Azrael meows some concerns about Gargamel's new plan to first rape the #### out of all the smurfs before turning them into gold. Azrael seeks asylum with Sassy Smurf. Gargamel in turn fashion as plan to skin Azrael and make cat pancakes out of him.

Now... under anyone EXCEPT Dumbass Shitbag Smurf as leader of the Smurf village, the smurfs likely consider this a bridge too far.

I might be wrong about the apology- couldn’t find anything after quick googling, and it is probably closer to her explaining the context than any apology (afaik she has maintained she never said she was Indian for professional advantage, and there’s no evidence she has). I do think it was inappropriate to list herself in a directory just because her lived experience was very likely far removed from a Cherokee regardless of what her family lore and DNA say.

If she wasn't doing it for purely opportunistic reasons in order to exploit a fictitious ethnicity for a career gain it actually makes her look fairly insane.

@MichaelAvenatti
Replying to @jbillinson
You have no idea what you are talking about. Every candidate and comm does this - Harris, Warren, the DNC, etc. Splits happen all the time. We raised money for Beto today that he otherwise would not have received. Once again, the establishment targets us bc we are a threat.

@benzaehringer
Lol “I’m as crooked as everybody else” what a cool 2020 pitch

Also, can Khashoggi really be described as merely a "journalist"? He seems to have been something more than that. For example from wiki: "In 2018, Khashoggi established a new political party called Democracy for the Arab World Now, posing a political threat to Crown Prince Mohammed." And of course his career as a journalist was fraught with peril and with upsetting the wrong hornets nests. American journalists seem to be describing him as a "journalist" in an apparent effort to elevate their own importance and pretend that they too operate under the same level of danger that he did, which is ridiculous.

The Little Lord threads the needle: getting murdered was Khashoggi’s fault for agitating for democracy. The Saudi monarchy had a moral obligation to stop him. Also American journalists are chickens and should pipe down.

Also, can Khashoggi really be described as merely a "journalist"? He seems to have been something more than that. For example from wiki: "In 2018, Khashoggi established a new political party called Democracy for the Arab World Now, posing a political threat to Crown Prince Mohammed." And of course his career as a journalist was fraught with peril and with upsetting the wrong hornets nests. American journalists seem to be describing him as a "journalist" in an apparent effort to elevate their own importance and pretend that they too operate under the same level of danger that he did, which is ridiculous.

I know you roll your eyes, but I am simply aghast at this. I don't throw this around the way Sam does, but this is pure Vichy. I can see you standing in the room reciting this while the dude is tortured and killed. Just awful.

Wow, I guess the nightly Ray-Cast turn a turn towards ... appeasement seems too soft. Every few months or so Ray goes completely "Catcher's throwing lane" on the bit. I don't remember that happening as regularly before Trump.

I must admit I do like that he continues to admit he knows nothing about the foreign policy of it all, before and after commenting on the situation and other poster's opinions about the situation. I am a little confused as to what "foreign policy" he needs to know to understand that killing law abiding and famous journalists is bad, and the way it was done is worse, but there you have it.

“The State of Theology survey highlights the urgent need for courageous ministry that faithfully teaches the historic Christian faith,” stated Chris Larson, president and CEO of Ligonier Ministries. “It’s never been popular to talk about mankind’s sinfulness or the exclusive claims of Jesus Christ. But at a time when a darkened world needs the light of the gospel, it’s disheartening to see many within the evangelical church confused about what the Bible teaches.”

I think that’s heartening! Confusion about what "the Bible teaches" is entirely appropriate. Certainly if you’re trying to use it to glean Homoousion or Hypostatic union or what have you.

I love this bit too –

The Bible is clear that the gospel is the only way of salvation, and God will not accept the worship of other faiths. It is only through Jesus Christ and by His Spirit that we are able to worship the Father in spirit and in truth (John 4:24).

However, on an encouraging note, evangelicals overwhelmingly agree that justification is by faith alone.

*Checks Bible to see if James 2:24 is still in there… *

Many Americans continue to agree with biblical ethics. Our 2018 survey finds a slim majority in the United States now agree that abortion is a sin, up from 49% in 2016.

Also, can Khashoggi really be described as merely a "journalist"? He seems to have been something more than that. For example from wiki: "In 2018, Khashoggi established a new political party called Democracy for the Arab World Now, posing a political threat to Crown Prince Mohammed." And of course his career as a journalist was fraught with peril and with upsetting the wrong hornets nests. American journalists seem to be describing him as a "journalist" in an apparent effort to elevate their own importance and pretend that they too operate under the same level of danger that he did, which is ridiculous.

I can only imagine what you might have said about Solzhentisyn after he was thrown into the Gulag. He wasn't so innocent, was he?

Ignoring Ray's bold take ... and granting that I'm only superficially aware of things ... are we sure that this isn't the sort of thing that Obama or Clinton would publicly tut-tut about but not do a damn thing?

(Of course even a toothless chastisement is better than what Trump did)

Dana Milbank had the best perspective on Elizabeth Warren's identity problem:

Though [Warren] doesn’t claim tribal membership, she clearly wants to be embraced. And so I extend an invitation to the senator to join my tribe. Warren should become a Jew. As Trump said when asking for African American votes shortly before praising Confederate Gen. Robert E. Lee: “Honor us.”

The Tribes of Israel have little to do with Native American tribes beyond the Yiddish-speaking Indians in Mel Brooks’s “Blazing Saddles.” But no DNA test is required. A stickler might require Warren to ask three times before becoming a Member of the Tribe — “MOT” — but for many, being Jewish is a state of mind, as comic legend Lenny Bruce explained decades ago:

“If you live in New York or any other big city, you are Jewish. It doesn’t matter even if you’re Catholic; if you live in New York, you’re Jewish. If you live in Butte, Montana, you’re going to be goyish even if you’re Jewish. Evaporated milk is goyish even if the Jews invented it. Chocolate is Jewish, and fudge is goyish. Spam is goyish, and rye bread is Jewish. Negroes are all Jews. Italians are all Jews. Irishmen who have rejected their religion are Jews. Mouths are very Jewish. And bosoms. Baton-twirling is very goyish.”

The same applies to current politics. If you work in the Trump administration, you are goyish even if you are Jewish. The House is goyish, the Senate is Jewish. Jeff Flake: Jewish. Dianne Feinstein: goyish. Sonia Sotomayor: very Jewish. Steny H. Hoyer: crazy goyish.

Warren would have some work to do. Her demeanor screams white bread and Jell-O molds. But a few adjustments might help: S top calling herself “an Okie to my toes.” (Even Jews who live in Oklahoma are goyish.) And, for heaven’s sake, stop with the crab mayonnaise.

Lest my motive be mistaken for partisan, I also asked House Speaker Paul D. Ryan’s office if he would kibbitz with me after a DNA test found Ryan to be 3 percent Ashkenazi Jew. Ryan shows a flicker of interest: He tweeted a GIF of himself raising a pint of beer, with the message: “Guess I need to start saying ‘L’Chaim’ now, too!” If he does that with a glass of schnapps, we’ll have our first Jewish speaker of the House.

Of course, I don’t actually desire to have Warren, or Ryan, join my “tribe” — which, in any event, is only part of my heritage. Like most in the American melting pot, I’m a mutt: a stew of English and German, western pioneers and sharecroppers, immigrants from the shtetl and a great-great-great-grandfather who died fighting for the Iowa 39th Infantry in the Civil War.

This is why Warren’s DNA stunt was such a blunder: She took Trump’s DNA-test dare and let him divide us — again — by race and ethnicity, just as he did when he goaded President Barack Obama to prove his legitimacy by producing his birth certificate.

It’s sad that the Cherokees responded by noisily rejecting Warren, but that’s their right.

It’s disgusting that the episode has also set off the worst in some, such as Sen. Lindsey O. Graham (R-S.C.), who joked on Fox News that it would be “terrible” if a DNA test found he had Iranian ethnicity.

No, Senator. What’s “terrible” is that Trump has found a new, high-tech way to stoke tribalism and division. And Warren fell for it.

I love it, but does conflating Dianne Feinstein with Nancy Pelosi make Milbank goyish?

Ignoring Ray's bold take ... and granting that I'm only superficially aware of things ... are we sure that this isn't the sort of thing that Obama or Clinton would publicly tut-tut about but not do a damn thing?

(Of course even a toothless chastisement is better than what Trump did)

I think the argument is more that the lack of tut-tutting on previous actions has led MBS to think this action would be totally cool.

Which is kind of a subtle distinction (and one that is tough to prove). US administrations have always been very tolerant of Saudi Arabia, so it's tough to single out Trump.

It is the danger of diplomacy. You have to send signals as to what is and what is not acceptable behaviour, and if your signalling is that "as long as you're anti-Iran do whatever you like", MBS is going to see how far he can take that and you get the Qatar embargo; the detention of the PM of Lebanon; and the assassination of a journalist. As weak as it is, I think there's a purpose to paying lip service to human rights and the rule of law.

Trump's first comment on the Khashoggi killing was something like "The Saudis will pay for this, realistically I can't cancel arms sales because American jobs are at stake, but I have ways of making them hurt" and it struck me as one of the most lucid remarks he's ever made, albeit in a brazenly Realpolitik sense. You can imagine such a thought process going on in many another President's mind.

Of course Trump then changed his position eight times in four days and is currently off in irresponsible fantasyland again.

My state voted to legalize Marijuana two years ago. Since then, governments both local and state have done everything they can to drag their feet and essentially nullify the result. I smoked a decent amount in college, but it tailed off soon after, and now it's been about a decade since I last bought any weed. I'm excited about the obvious improvements in weed technology - vaporizers, edibles with precise doses, etc - and having curtailed my drinking recently, I'm planning to explore marijuana as my new mood-alterer of choice as soon as I can legally get at it.

Here's a question: do you think I should smoke weed in front of my little kids? I drink beer in front of them, and they are vaguely aware of the phenomenon of drunkenness (they've never seen a family member drunk).

Might depend on how old your kids are. I don't think it's responsible to send kids off to live on their own when they have no conception of how alcohol works. If weed is legal where you are, I'd guess a similar principle applies, though weed is probably significantly less dangerous.

What seems to be the case is that the left can't imagine any reason why Trump is taking the position he is other than "Trump likes dictators who kill journalists." (*) The real issues at play are different from that.

Not clear how you can make this statement immediately after saying:

I don't know enough about the international relations involved to comment.

Might depend on how old your kids are. I don't think it's responsible to send kids off to live on their own when they have no conception of how alcohol works. If weed is legal where you are, I'd guess a similar principle applies, though weed is probably significantly less dangerous.

Right now they're 6 and 3.

Weed is obviously less dangerous than alcohol. It's just a quirk of history that it's illegal and thus taboo. Drinking beer in front of a kid couldn't be more commonplace, but I think most would characterize smoking a joint in front of a kid today as deviant behavior. My question is, with cannabis becoming increasingly accepted, at what point does cease to be deviant?

Ignoring Ray's bold take ... and granting that I'm only superficially aware of things ... are we sure that this isn't the sort of thing that Obama or Clinton would publicly tut-tut about but not do a damn thing?

My guess is that they would boldly proclaim that they are suspending the sale of arms or certain deals in the pipeline to make a show of how outraged they are. The Saudis would make the appropriate statements that it won't happen again and then the WH would (after some time) quietly lift the suspension.

So certainly more theater about it. And it at least reigns in the worst sort of behavior by an ally.

I know Bill Clinton didn't do anything when Sergei Magnitsky was murdered. Why not Bill? Was Hillary involved?

The Global Magnitsky Act directs the president to single out foreign nationals about whom credible evidence exists to indicate their direct role in "extrajudicial killings, torture, or other human rights violations committed against individuals seeking to promote human rights or to expose illegal activity carried out by government officials," or government officials responsible for or complicit in significant acts of corruption. These designated individuals face multiple sanctions, including the revocation of any issued visas and the banning of their entrance to the United States. Any assets held in American financial institutions or on American soil could also be frozen and future transactions prohibited.

So we gonna keep pretending this doesn't exist, or just go with "if Russia didn't do it, we really don't give a ####\"?

I think most would characterize smoking a joint in front of a kid today as deviant behavior

Of course, a lot of people today would think of smoking a cigarette in front of kids as deviant, especially indoors. A big change from my own childhood, when people were never not smoking. I'd say if you're outdoors and the kids are upwind, there's no harm, unless you don't want to normalize any kind of smoking in their presence.

Right, because Saudi Arabia has been an impeccable global citizen for decades prior to this event. They were, for example, somewhat involved in 9/11, and they're a relentless oppressor of gay people and women.

I'm sure there will be pushback, but secondhand smoke is crap for kids.

Oh, of course. I mean, other than that. Let's assume outdoors and upwind, as BDC says, or some other form that is safe for bystanders - a quick google indicates that nobody's quite sure how safe vaping is yet, but that it might be safe.

Weed is obviously less dangerous than alcohol. It's just a quirk of history that it's illegal and thus taboo. Drinking beer in front of a kid couldn't be more commonplace, but I think most would characterize smoking a joint in front of a kid today as deviant behavior. My question is, with cannabis becoming increasingly accepted, at what point does cease to be deviant?

I think most would characterize smoking a joint in front of a kid today as deviant behavior

On one hand I don't smoke, drink, or do drugs (Yes, I really am that boring). I guess I was a good role-model for my boys, but I did not want to send them out into the world completely ignorant, especially since addiction runs very strong in my family.

So I tried my best to model good behavior while still informing them about what was out there. They are adults now, so we shall see how successful I (and my ex) were on that front.

However, I don't know if deviant is the word I would use for any of that. All of those activities are obviously pleasurable for many people and so many people do them, despite all of them being fairly unhealthy and expensive.

A straw can break a camel's back. You can remove a grain of sand from a beach and have it no longer be a beach.

Funny how all the camel's backs seem to break because of these tiny events when Orange Julius happens to be president.

I think part of it (I would hope part of it anyway) is that Saudi Arabia isn't just violating human rights, it is de-stabilizing the Middle East. The Qatar embargo, the Yemeni War, the detention of Lebanon's PM...the international community doesn't care about them because they care about human rights in the Middle East (when have they ever cared about that?). It's becoming an issue because MBS is going around throwing lit matches all over the Middle East. Sending a hit squad into Turkey to assassinate someone, that's pretty inflammatory.

I think the international community is well aware that some kind of "look the other way" is always going to be there with Saudi Arabia. But there's a point at which looking the other way let's things get out of hand.

Ignoring Ray's bold take ... and granting that I'm only superficially aware of things ... are we sure that this isn't the sort of thing that Obama or Clinton would publicly tut-tut about but not do a damn thing?

(Of course even a toothless chastisement is better than what Trump did)

I think the argument is more that the lack of tut-tutting on previous actions has led MBS to think this action would be totally cool.

Which is kind of a subtle distinction (and one that is tough to prove). US administrations have always been very tolerant of Saudi Arabia, so it's tough to single out Trump.

It is the danger of diplomacy. You have to send signals as to what is and what is not acceptable behaviour, and if your signalling is that "as long as you're anti-Iran do whatever you like", MBS is going to see how far he can take that and you get the Qatar embargo; the detention of the PM of Lebanon; and the assassination of a journalist. As weak as it is, I think there's a purpose to paying lip service to human rights and the rule of law.

Yup, this exactly.

Saudi Arabia doesn't check with DC on every decision it makes, but I staunchly and thoroughly believe that a lot of what happens after (and including) June 2017 does not happen the way it has and to the extent it has under any other President except Trump.

I am a big believer in all nations more or less behaving as rational actors. The US cannot and should be solving every problem in the world nor can it prevent them all.

But - there are gimmes. Easy ones where the US can be a preventive force by literally doing nothing except providing consistent lip service. The ever-growing debacle on the Arabian peninsula is one such.

If the US doesn't have a moron President who likes to play cartoon global villain for fun, with his most trusted adviser being a lifelong pampered 30something son-in-law who happened to get along just swell with another lifelong pampered 30somehing, an awful lot of the last 16 months does not go down the way it has gone done.

I think part of it (I would hope part of it anyway) is that Saudi Arabia isn't just violating human rights, it is de-stabilizing the Middle East. The Qatar embargo, the Yemeni War, the detention of Lebanon's PM...the international community doesn't care about them because they care about human rights in the Middle East (when have they ever cared about that?). It's becoming an issue because MBS is going around throwing lit matches all over the Middle East. Sending a hit squad into Turkey to assassinate someone, that's pretty inflammatory.

I think the international community is well aware that some kind of "look the other way" is always going to be there with Saudi Arabia. But there's a point at which looking the other way let's things get out of hand.

Exactly.

People are treating this like some event in a vacuum, as if this hasn't been building and getting worse for some time.

Then, other people are employing their myopic purity tests... as if it doesn't matter that virtually cost-free diplomatic dancing at any number of prior steps doesn't matter because SA wouldn't have been some western SJW utopia anyway.

Perros, if I understand your point correctly you're upset the Magnitsky Act isn't being applied to Saudi Arabia? You will be thrilled to learn that a bipartisan group of senators sent a letter to Trump last week calling for an investigation and invoking the Magnitsky Act.

Here's a question: do you think I should smoke weed in front of my little kids? I drink beer in front of them, and they are vaguely aware of the phenomenon of drunkenness (they've never seen a family member drunk).

FWIW -

I have several friends who partake and a coupe who are quite regular partakers (including one family outside Denver... wink wink) and they do not. All kids 10 and under.

The Denver fellow is a bit of a stay-at-home dad - he consults from home, but his wife is the primary breadwinner. He does vape - but not generally in front of the kids (he's got a 6 yo daughter and a 4 yo son) and only with those fruit-flavored/smelling oils.

I actually saw him this past weekend (college homecoming) and was specifically asking him about how he plans to handle it - despite what some folks might think of it, he's a pretty responsible guy and not some hippie burnout who spends all day staring at his hands - and his answer is basically that when the time comes, it'll be handled the same alcohol was handled with him.... namely, strong suggestions that high school isn't the time for it to be a big part of the kid's life, but becoming an adult is about making your own decisions, yada yada... No hypocrisy, no scare-mongering, but no encouragement either. He did say that though - ~10 years off - he's looking forward to owning a proper bong again.

People are treating this like some event in a vacuum, as if this hasn't been building and getting worse for some time.

I neglected to include Saudi Arabia's most heinous act of all - being rude to Canada.

Heh, indeed.

It's another case of something that simply would not happen sans Trump. I'd call it a bit more than just "rude"... I'd call it the ridiculous hissy fit of a rapidly escalating problem regime.

I mean, after this:

Foreign Policy CAN
‏Verified account @CanadaFP

Canada is gravely concerned about additional arrests of civil society and women’s rights activists in #SaudiArabia, including Samar Badawi. We urge the Saudi authorities to immediately release them and all other peaceful #humanrights activists.
7:10 AM - 3 Aug 2018

Saudi Arabia expels the Canadian ambassador, recalls their own, puts a halt to trade and flights between the two countries, and essentially severs diplomatic relations?

Saudi Arabia expels the Canadian ambassador, recalls their own, puts a halt to trade and flights between the two countries, and essentially severs diplomatic relations?

Are you kidding me?

Also, Saudi Arabia demanded its citizens leave Canadian universities they were studying at. I've had a handful of Saudi students over the past couple years who have likely been inconvenienced by the whole fiasco.

I'm sure there will be pushback, but secondhand smoke is crap for kids.

As with virtually any substance, the dose makes the poison. SHS is generally not an issue at the levels at which bystanders are exposed to it. (There are some occupations for which that is not the case.) And marijuana smokers generally smoke less marijuana than cigarette smokers do cigarettes.

Also, Saudi Arabia demanded its citizens leave Canadian universities they were studying at. I've had a handful of Saudi students over the past couple years who have likely been inconvenienced by the whole fiasco.

No doubt... it's an utterly surreal overreaction...

The real irony of Mr. Decline Who Hates Tribalism pretending he's just injecting a different opinion?