B2 I love you!

- Vinegar idea : this is not to be done all the time, it was part of my toolbox when I feel my liver is being overwhelmed. Same for oil pulling. These are emergency measures that have to be taken I think, because it is not good at all when you do not feel good! It means some destruction is going on. I always try to stop the damage as fast as I can. In that line for those who HATE the idea that you can act directly sometimes on your body without bought chemicals, a few drops of a milk thistle tincture in water helps very well (I use this http://www.iherb.com/Search?kw=A Vogel Milk Thistle).

- Best wishes for the "smarter"! You don't sound as though you are needing this so much!

- butter oil etc.... They are on the right track I think but we are not healthy, and a lot of damage has been done. This is why I went the menatetrenone way. I couldn't afford to wait. It could have been catastrophic as back then I tried something no one had tried. I feel blessed that it turned out alright.

So now that we need to eat offal/skin/vit A, D, K, you will have to give us another clue. It all sounds very interesting and very similar to what Chris Masterjohn and Stephen Guynet (they have excellent blogs) and WAPF suggest for optimal health. However, they don't link anything to folic acid so I am interested in what your thoughts are.

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Thank you for the links to Chris Masterjohn and Stephen Guynet. I wasn't aware of them and will study that.

A, D, K, yes.
But that is not the whole bear story.
You are quite right in thinking we do not have to eat raw salmon skin/brains/eyes and that the nutrients can be had with supplementation. That bear story has to do with simultaneity too. Since the MK-4 disappears quite fast from the blood (being used up?), I think it is important that we try to take our vit D and A at the same time every time this is possible.
Vitamin D is supposed to last you a week. I do my sunbathing every two days.
Vitamin A I take only as livers (and organs and nice crunchy chicken skin which also has D). This also is supposed to last you a while. We eat a fry up of livers (if possible bird's - lamb's is nice and they eat more grass that cows which are raised in a different way) once or twice a week. No need for huge portions.

There is more to the bear story and this is where DogPerson comes in. Up to last April I wasn't aware of the necessity for b2/manganese when taking ADK. Remember I said we were 90% cured after 2 and a half years on ADK. Something was missing and I did not know what. We tried all kinds of supplements, but every single time they made us worse and we crashed with what I realize now was B2 deficiency. It was puzzling : every time we tried something, the bad symptoms were the same, never mind what we took!!

So we tried B2/manganese when it appeared on this forum. Immediately we knew this was the missing piece of the puzzle. It felt like this, difficult to explain.
Then watching the blessed BBC a couple of months ago we saw a nice soothing documentary on bears fishing and in front of our amazed eyes there it was : a bear eating the brains, the skin and the eyes and discarding the rest!!!!
What is in eyes to such an extent that if you do not have enough, your eyes dry up, get inflamed etc...????Riboflavin.
So I looked for proof of this and did not find any, I suppose because nobody is eating sheep's eyes anymore! I did my own kinesiology test on sheep's eyes my butcher generously contributed: Bingo!!! They tested very very high.
This I suppose explains which in cultures where they eat offal seriously the eyes are for the VIP.

I have much more to say about this and other subjects. Thank you very much for formulating questions that help me give answers. I have gut feelings (maybe from all that MK-4! - maybe I am getting smarter with my Bains Derivatifs!) based on a lot of unrelated information. This all leads me somewhere but I can only explain it step by step.

I hope this will give you an incentive to find out more. Unfortunately I am now leaving my computer for a few days. I hope you will have some presents for me when I come back!
Lots and lots of good wishes!!

Hi, I did the hair elements DDi test a few years ago and I don't see any B-2/rioflavin element (the test contain "toxic elements" and "essential and other elements"). Is this the same test? If it means something so other elements, as the manganese, were law.

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I had the DD test done which DogPerson used to interpret that I was deficient in b2. Deficiencies in hair analysis are discovered through the levels and ratios of minerals and toxins.

Hi, I did the hair elements DDi test a few years ago and I don't see any B-2/rioflavin element (the test contain "toxic elements" and "essential and other elements"). Is this the same test? If it means something so other elements, as the manganese, were law.

Re: eyes, according to Nourishing Traditions (pg 192), glutathione is found at high concentrations in the eye and protects the lens from UV light.

I was also watching a documentary The Truth About Looking Young the other night about skin aging and what researchers are currently doing about it. They found that in squid eyes there's something that protects it from UV light. Apparently the chemical is MMA and researchers are trying to synthesize it in the lab and they think it will be available in 5 years. So instead protecting our skin with creme, we'll be taking a pill derived from a squid's eye.

Christine mentioned something about folic acid needing b2 to convert it to a usable form. Is this why you think "fake folate" is so bad? I think most vitamins/minerals need b2 or use b2 in some way; however maybe with folic acid being added to so many foods we eat the body has to use excessive amounts of b2 to convert it?

B2 noticeably helps my eyes. I can go outside without sunglasses for 10-15 min before the sun bothers me (I live in a very hot/sunny state and wear contacts so this is a huge improvement). It also makes taking zinc much more effective (although I started vitamin K at the same time so it may be contributing too). Taking a small amount of zinc before bed puts me into a very deep restorative sleep.

What I notice compared to 3 weeks ago when I was 13 weeks into this protocol:

- good energy; a good bit more energy
- sleep = good sleep with no tension. Dreams. Waking up a bit later than before.
- no bouts of sadness/depression/feeling overwhelmed; same
- less affected by other people's depression!!!!!! Much less empathy!!! same
- No more queasy feelings in stomach. Same

- since the beginning of supplementation, very easy and slippery bowel movements. Transit was never a problem in the last year but now it seems there is a lot of lymph (or something oily) coating the matters. Colour normal, not very dark though; same
- pee is back to absolutely normal colour; same
- no more stuff coming out of my scalp and ears; same
-I see lots of new hairs. Also hair/nails growing noticeably faster. same

- hearing more or less back to normal, with sometimes lower accuracy for a couple of hours; same
- no improvement in blurry vision. VERY BIG CHANGE see later
- one shoulder hurting sometimes, much less; even less pain there than before
- no forgetfulness at present same
- irritation of the eyes in the morning on waking up only; three bad days with eyes hurting when waking up
- husband sees his floaters kind of "unravel" at the ends same and more

- husband just found out that two small hardened lymph balls under finger pads, having been there for years and resistant to massage have disappeared same and more, another one under an armpit for years has disappeared
- pasty mouth (not too bad) on waking; not dry anymore, a bit pasty - same
- sometimes a lot of mucous coming out of my sinuses - this stops after a couple of hours; a lot for a couple of days
- hair getting greasy after a couple of days; gone
- less appetite same
- sunbathing but no tan!!! see my post #463 - same
- no more stretch marks see my post #480 - same

What has happened during these three weeks is quite important for me.
In the middle of this time I have had three bad days, with "detox" feelings. I woke up to dry mouth, dry eyes, some flashes at the corner of my eyes, nervousness, burning stools, exhausted all day long. maybe some people say that these "detox" feelings are not detox at all, but during that time I have seen two coin sized brownish areas appear on my jaw, where my teeth used to have amalgams (long removed). Not nice! But one has started to fade so there is hope.

I have not stopped supplementation this time to see if the "detox" would pass faster. I did do the bains dérivatifs, eye baths and went swimming every day (now I can do 2 kms which for me is heaven).
Answer : the detox did not fade faster than when I had stopped the supplements.

By the third day I was starting to feel very depressed, my eyesight which is pretty bad was going worse. When I woke up on the fourth day and I put my contact lens on I could not see a thing. In despair I took it off (I only wear one, the other eye is beyond help). I could see fairly well I thought, better than with my contact lens.
So I tried my husband's contact lens (one day contact) and I could see really well!!! for the first time in years.
To sum it up:
- From birth I had quite severe eye problems ( FFP from my mother I now believe);
- From age 4 (yes I could read) I wore glasses for the left eye : 3.75 myopia + plus strong astigmatism most probably due to my right eye being nearly blind;
- From age 45 when I started going down with this disease my eyesight regularly went dimmer, faster and faster as years went by. In January of this year the ophthalmologist found 12.5 myopia + nearly the same astigmatism I had all my life, slightly different.
- After that fourth day my myopia has dramatically reduced to 3.5 or less (this is my husband's prescription and it looks a bit strong for me at the moment. To make my life easier with the declining eyesight, I wear spectacles only for my astigmatism, which I supplement with contact lenses for the myopia (it did not get worse in a linear way, sometimes it seemed to get a bit better and I could wear a smaller correction - this system helped me not tp spend too mch changing glasses all the time.
The problem is that the astigmatism has changed a lot now!!!!! I have to turn these glasses about 40° to see properly!!!!
I am not rushing to the doctor yet because I do not know if this will last (please send good wishes) and also because I am hoping now that maybe my eyes will improve further (greedy but why not?).

I looks to me like an incredible breakthrough. I can read with no correction at all. In the street things are blurry but I am overwhelmed with gratitude for the Universe which has brought me this.
What if I had lacked B2 all my life? During the declining eyesight years I have seen maybe three eye doctors a year in different countries to try to find a solution. Nobody helped.
I still have some cataracts but my husband says they seem to get better this week.
Every morning the eyes are hot, one eyelid seems to have a zit from the inside, but the feeling disappears after a couple of hours. And the next day it is the same, but a bit better so I suppose this will taper to an end.

I do hope that DogPerson reads this because I bless her with all my heart and I wish her to receive as much as I have received from her.

Let's see what happens next.
Lots of good wishes to all,
Be well!
Asklipia

Thank you for the encouragement, Little Bluestem. I really need this, treading alone where others do not tread!

I take 10 mg chelated Mn with my morning coffee and a teaspoon WaterOz when I think of it, around 11 am or in the afternoon if I have forgotten it.
Together with my breakfast eggs I take the Menatetrenone and 25 mg B2. I take another dose of 25 mg B2 with lunch, another dose when I eat my afternoon snack (at present generally two big spoons of strained yoghurt + 3 fresh figs) and the last 25 mg with dinner (not always).

I've been dividing my two 8 mg chelated Mn into four doses. That is a real pain because it has to be taken on an empty stomach. I think I am going to start taking a whole pill twice a day. I am also going to try to get some WaterOz 'sometime'.

I ended up being instructed to take 12 teasp WOz a day, but I changed it to 10mg Mn and 1 teasp WOz because of the cost and the other 2 supps stopped due to too much iron being released apparently from b2 and b12 using up Mn. I was not doing so good. I was also alarmed to see my ferritin go up to190 from 150. At this point I had to go it alone due to the time period of working with DP being ended for us all as she has gone on an extended vacation, and without the help of a follow on test to see how things had gone so I weaned myself off Mn and felt better.

I decided that as there were no trials of high dose Mn therapy I would not continue and especially as others were also running into difficulties. I began to improve. One problem I had developed on high Mn was bladder irritation. I thought it was infection and was treating with garlic but it would not go away. I felt that imbalances were developing due to taking so much of one substance.

Having been impressed with what Annesse has written on this site, I began to take raw sauerkraut and make raw milk kefir and have made progress as have others in the group.

I am prefering to do it the natural way and avoid developing more deficiencies. Raw milk kefir especially with a second ferment contains lots of b12 folate and the other b`s. These enzymes break down protein so that the immune system recognises them and does not attack them. This is very beneficial for those with autoimmunity. Annesse has writeen a book about it. Its called `Autoimmunity the cause and the cure`.

One amazing benefit for me has been the reduction in my BP which has gone right down. My energy is improving too.I have found someone else to do a repeat hair test for me but am still waiting for the results which should be interesting.

I do wish you both good luck however. It was not a cure all we have found. I did have an improvement in my thyroid however and it remains to be seen if it is lasting..

Christine mentioned something about folic acid needing b2 to convert it to a usable form. Is this why you think "fake folate" is so bad? I think most vitamins/minerals need b2 or use b2 in some way; however maybe with folic acid being added to so many foods we eat the body has to use excessive amounts of b2 to convert it?

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Hi Blossom1!
I think the adjunction of folic acid (yes I include it in the fake folates) to industrial food is a desperate attempt to minimize the deleterious effects of a former fake folate added to food at a previous date, and still added to food now. In economical terms, it was not possible to go back so they ended up adding some extra folates instead of removing the culprit. Hoping that it would counterbalance the first fake folates and that people wouldn't die or make abnormal babies anymore (think spina bifida but not only).

Massive amounts of B2 being needed? Yes I suspect so, at least this is how it feels to me now. But I think the first problem, or at least as big a problem is the inactivation of vitamin D. The fake folates deprive you of the benefits of vitamin D. Worse, they make your body refuse to synthesize vitamin D because it becomes harmful. Hence the big deficiencies in vitamin D all around.
Hence the theories of the Marshall Protocol. Which I do not believe can work for long as it does not challenge the problem at its source.

B2 noticeably helps my eyes. I can go outside without sunglasses for 10-15 min before the sun bothers me (I live in a very hot/sunny state and wear contacts so this is a huge improvement). It also makes taking zinc much more effective (although I started vitamin K at the same time so it may be contributing too). Taking a small amount of zinc before bed puts me into a very deep restorative sleep.

I decided that as there were no trials of high dose Mn therapy I would not continue and especially as others were also running into difficulties. I began to improve. One problem I had developed on high Mn was bladder irritation. I thought it was infection and was treating with garlic but it would not go away. I felt that imbalances were developing due to taking so much of one substance.

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Thank you Brenda for keeping me up to date with what is happening with Mn supplementation and those trying it.
I have not taken huge amounts, not more than 10 mg chelated + 1 or 2 teaspoons of WaterOz per day. I feel this is helping me, especially with elasticity of ligaments. I too have suffered from "bladder infections" along the years, which were not at all infections as no analysis could ever detect any particular parasite. In fact I ended up treating those with "Bains Dérivatifs", since they immediately decrease inflammation.http://forums.phoenixrising.me/index.php?threads/bains-dérivatifs.15574/

This decreases the inflammation and eventually the 'bladder infection" goes away. But it comes back every time there is some kind of "detox". However, since I have been doing the Bains Dérivatifs, I have noticed that the irritation does not come back in the exact same place as it always did before, there has been a distance of an inch or so every time, which was a big help because I do not seem to have a particular burning place anymore, meaning that there is time between bouts for real healing of the tissues. Also taking B2 and Mn for me has progressively reduced this problem to nearly nil (just a vague dry feeling for a couple of days every ten days or so, a sure sign that things are getting better).

Having been impressed with what Annesse has written on this site, I began to take raw sauerkraut and make raw milk kefir and have made progress as have others in the group.

I am prefering to do it the natural way and avoid developing more deficiencies. Raw milk kefir especially with a second ferment contains lots of b12 folate and the other b`s. These enzymes break down protein so that the immune system recognises them and does not attack them. This is very beneficial for those with autoimmunity. Annesse has writeen a book about it. Its called `Autoimmunity the cause and the cure`.

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Unfortunately I have tried the enzyme way before and it did not work for me. In Germany they use enzymes but taking pharmaceutical enzymes to replace those which are missing I think aggravated my condition. Looking back I realize that it must have been for lack of whatever is needed when enzymes go to work, maybe B2 (I was taking MK-4 at the time as well as Vitamin D and eating liver). Sauerkraut was for me, even home-made sauerkraut, an excitotoxic. I reacted to it with all the signs of MSG poisoning, that after a few days, not on the first day.
I make homemade raw milk kefir most of the year, it is very satisfying and I am sure very good for me in general, but it has not improved my health really, at least not noticeably as to fatigue etc.... It has not helped me to bridge the gap between 90% cured and total cure, the way I am feeling is happening now. Maybe it is one of the reasons why I reached the 90% cured though!

One amazing benefit for me has been the reduction in my BP which has gone right down. My energy is improving too.I have found someone else to do a repeat hair test for me but am still waiting for the results which should be interesting... It was not a cure all we have found. I did have an improvement in my thyroid however and it remains to be seen if it is lasting..

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I am so glad that you are seeing some benefit from this! I wish you all the best and hope that you will post more results.

Asklipia, I am very happy for your progress. I am struggling with things right now. You mentioned excitotoxicity. I get this with everything I try. I was doing the Mn with Christine, but it was too much for me to handle. so now I am trying Annesse's diet, which was actually recommended by my homeopath too. I feel more energy and I have less digestive issues, but the excitotoxicity is pretty bad. As far as taking enzymes, Annesse's says it all needs to come from food. she told me that taking it in supplement form isn't good. She also stresses that the fermented food must be eaten with good clean proteins, from meat sources, for repair. This is where rebuilding the b12 stores comes in. Anyway, there is more to this, but the whole excitotoxicity thing is a bit much. Any ideas? I am all ears! I am just tired of dealing with anxiety. It is wearing me out. Btw, I won't take meds. It makes me worse! Thanks!

Asklipia, I am very happy for your progress. I am struggling with things right now. You mentioned excitotoxicity. I get this with everything I try. I was doing the Mn with Christine, but it was too much for me to handle. so now I am trying Annesse's diet, which was actually recommended by my homeopath too. I feel more energy and I have less digestive issues, but the excitotoxicity is pretty bad. As far as taking enzymes, Annesse's says it all needs to come from food. she told me that taking it in supplement form isn't good. She also stresses that the fermented food must be eaten with good clean proteins, from meat sources, for repair. This is where rebuilding the b12 stores comes in. Anyway, there is more to this, but the whole excitotoxicity thing is a bit much. Any ideas? I am all ears! I am just tired of dealing with anxiety. It is wearing me out. Btw, I won't take meds. It makes me worse! Thanks!

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Shellbell, I am sorry you are having a bad time with excitotoxicity. This is a terrible thing.
In my experience it takes about 5 days for this to subside, if you do not encourage it further. It also helps to remember that this will pass. I agree totally with you for not taking meds. The price for a temporary blurring of the damage is too high.
Trying Bains Dérivatifs twice a day 10 mns should help.

Yes enzymes have to be eaten with good meat, I would even add : in the case of sauerkraut it has to be pork. Which is why traditionally sauerkraut is eaten with maybe three to four times its weight in pork. It does not look like this on your plate because the sauerkraut is fluffy, but by weight, this is what it is like.

In my opinion, eating sauerkraut like this is just adding insult to injury. It is similar to juicing vegetables and eating only those juices. A huge input of folates. This was OK in the Gerson diet because it was complemented with liver.
Same thing really as adding folic acid to food in the hope of neutralizing the deleterious effects of the former fake folates addition.
Same thing as taking methylfolate or any other style of new folates.

The body cannot take anymore folates, it is poisoned by folates.

The anxiety is a result of all this sympathetic stimulation. But it is fed also by the anguish of not knowing what is wrong and the despair of trying with hope and failing again and again to get better.
Once you realize that there is nothing wrong with you, there will be a shift in consciousness.

This is all to do with the idea that we have to adapt to the conditions of the world that surrounds us. If we cannot take it, there is something wrong with us. If we cannot eat what others around us eat, we are excluded from the Last Supper. We are not normal! Hey, our genes are wrong!!!!

Well the good news is : nobody can eat what we are supposed to eat without deteriorating fast. Even dogs cannot! You are not alone.
Therapies just mitigate the effects of the poisoning. Because we cannot fix what is wrong with us. There is basically nothing wrong with us. The wrong is what we are doing to ourselves trying to adapt to a way of life which is just not possible.

I used to think : when I shall be cured I shall be able to do the same things I used to do/eat. Well, this is just not true. What I used to eat, what my parents used to eat, what my grandparents used to eat brought me to that sorry state I am in now.
Going back is not recommended.
I think that if we want to survive and thrive we have to reconstruct our world from the inside.

I never hoped when I started this fight against what I thought was a disease imposed from the outside that I would be cured of things which I thought were part of me. Never thought I would grow 2 cms by age 58! Never thought my eyes would get better than what they were when I was a child. This folate poisoning dates back, way back.
I was told my genes were wrong. Haha! I am alive, am I not? Now I see the world with new eyes!

I do not wish to give advice to others as this is not my place. But I shall doggedly document what is happening to me, comment if asked, answer questions, so that someone who reads my posts may find a way out of this.

As long as there is life, there is hope.
I send you lots of love and healing energy. The five days of excitotoxicity will soon pass. May you be healed and feel loved from inside.
Be well, this is what I ask for you.
AsklipiaFFP

What I used to eat, what my parents used to eat, what my grandparents used to eat brought me to that sorry state I am in now.

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I doubt that what you used to eat was very much like what your grandparents used to eat. Since your grandparents' time, both plants and animals used for food have been changed genetically. The ways that they are raised and processed have also changed. This has changed the food that we consume.

I have been taking 16 mg Mn/day and do not think it has caused me any problems. I have tissue mineral tests going back two years showing that my Mn has been hovering just below or just above the bottom of the reference range for at least that long.

I doubt that what you used to eat was very much like what your grandparents used to eat. Since your grandparents' time, both plants and animals used for food have been changed genetically. The ways that they are raised and processed have also changed. This has changed the food that we consume.

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Yes, I did not mean that the food had stayed he same. It is the accumulation of the changes that has brought the evolution.

I have been taking 16 mg Mn/day and do not think it has caused me any problems. I have tissue mineral tests going back two years showing that my Mn has been hovering just below or just above the bottom of the reference range for at least that long.

I am not understanding the connection between fake folates and vitamin D and what fake folates were in previous generations (before folic acid was added to food). Can you please explain?

It is my understanding that sauerkraut has very little folate in it--about 9% of the RDA in a serving--so I am unclear on what you are trying to say about it to shellbell. Does it need to be eaten with liver or other vitamin b12 containing foods to balance out the folate in it?

I do drink kefir and eat sauerkraut and do not have any problems with them (at least so far); I started eating fermented food with meals because I don't think I digest proteins correctly and supposedly fermented foods help with that. I ferment the kefir twice because I seem to really need active folate and this increases folates as well as some of the other vitamins so I do not need to supplement with b vitamins other than b2. Methylfolate seems to help me, but I am still very interested in your theory.

I have had to stop taking manganese because it made my liver hurt, but I still take b2. Vitamin K as I mentioned before made my heart pound and blood pressure rise so I had to decrease down to tiny amounts. I am spraying myself with magnesium oil to increase my magnesium before increasing the vitamin K since I think there is a connection there. My husband who never had chronic fatigue or any other similar problem is doing very well on manganese and b2 and vitamin K (7 mg/day). When I stop giving the supplements to him, his allergies and sinus problems come back. One interesting connection may be that he has problems with msg; it makes him very sick. I do not have any problems with msg and can easily eat foods containing it . The manganese/b2/vitaminK seems to work better for him.

Hi Blossom1,You are asking all the right questions.
I have some answers, but they are very personal. All I am writing is based on my observation and has no official backing. Once that said, I do believe I am right, but there is lots of room for improvement in my theories. And there are many ways to describe what we know of the world. If I express my theory how I see it, in my language, it can be translated into another language, that some people would choose as more "scientific".
It does not change the world, just the description of it.
Every language protects secrets, and by the superposition of several languages they suddenly become visible, just like invisible ink shows up if you put lemon juice on your paper and bring it to a flame.
This is the beauty of structuralism, the Claude Levi-Strauss way.

I am not understanding the connection between fake folates and vitamin D

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Well, you've nailed it. This is the heart of the problem I think.

Deficiency in vitamin K makes vitamin D toxic :http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/17145139
"According to this model, vitamin D increases the expression of proteins whose activation depends on vitamin K-mediated carboxylation; as the demand for carboxylation increases, the pool of vitamin K is depleted. Since vitamin K is essential to the nervous system and plays important roles in protecting against bone loss and calcification of the peripheral soft tissues, its deficiency results in the symptoms associated with hypervitaminosis D. This hypothesis is circumstantially supported by the observation that animals deficient in vitamin K or vitamin K- dependent proteins exhibit remarkable similarities to animals fed toxic doses of vitamin D, and the observation that vitamin D and the vitamin K-inhibitor Warfarin have similar toxicity profiles and exert toxicity synergistically when combined."

This is not just a hypothesis, as the authors carefully warn. The consequences of this are huge. Better stay careful or you'll never get funding again.In fact there is industrial use of these finds. Think rat poison. For a while, rats were easily poisoned by a kind of Warfarin, an anti-vitamin K drug. But guess what? They became immune, at least in part and went on reproducing happily (more or less). So guess what they add to rat-poison now? Vitamin D of course.

Anti-K + Vitamin D = just what we are taking every day.

Vitamin D toxicity
Thus a lowering of vitamin K or vitamin K-dependent proteins would explain the reluctance of the body to synthesize any more vitamin D or to metabolize it. It is an attempt to resist a potentially harmful process.
This is why people are "allergic" to vitamin D, cannot stay in the sun without feeling sick, cannot tolerate looking at sunlight (some vitamin D comes from that too) etc... Hence the Marshall Protocol etc...

Another way : anorexia
There is another way, more ambitious : instead of depriving themselves of vitamin D to keep afloat (for how much longer and in which shape????), some enterprising young people are choosing to boost their vitamin D levels by refusing to eat all that anti-K!!! They see with horror their parents going down the merry way to brain fog etc... They refuse to eat THAT!!!!!!!
Some studies have found that anorexic children have a normal vitamin D blood level . Haha!!!! Not so dumb! Because vitamin D is stored in fat, every weight loss is bringing a high in vitamin D.
But unfortunately this does not give then any more vitamin K and the end is horrific.
Nice try though.

Pandemic of vitamin D deficiency all around the world, including in sunny places.
The worldwide deficiency in vitamin D has started with a vitamin K deficiency induced by anti-K poisoning.
You can measure all the vitamin K or D in food and count the hours of sunlight in every town. No use if you do not take into account the amount of anti-K ingested. This is why worldwide studies on vitamin K levels give bizarre results, with sunny places with populations showing vitamin D deficiencies. The fact is that the divide is not geographical, but is based on industrial food choices.
The divide is not so much racial as suggested (darker skin etc.) as dependent on nutrition. Lots of FFP in the south of the US.

Genetic problems associated with folate metabolism.
There is a parallel to be drawn between those Warfarin resistant rats and us. In the same way anti-K drugs precipitate an evolution in rodents, fake folates precipitate an evolution in humans. We survive, but not in optimal shape, and are not able to use folates or vitamin D. We end up supplementing fake folate #1 with fake folate #2 ... #10.

Fake folates = anti-K.
I am sorry, I have to stop here, I am exhausted for now. Guests are coming today and there will be no FF in the food. For this I have to cook everything from scratch.

The implications of all this are hurting my heart.
Time to think happy thoughts for a while.
Lots of good wishes,
AsklipiaFFP

Oh, I forgot : does anyone remember why DogPerson warned against vitamin D as depleting B2? I have my idea but others are welcome.
And : do you still go on with Bains Dérivatifs? Vitamins ADK are carried around in the lymph and this is a good way to bring them where other beers do not reach.

Thanks for the reply. I completely understand how exhausting it can be to write long posts, and I don't expect you to try to "prove" anything. I am more just interested in finding out what has worked for you. I have heard that Vitamin D is very dangerous to take without Vit K so I don't think that there is any argument on that one, but I can't remember why dogperson said Vit D uses up b2. I just know she did not want people to supplement with it. Annesse also thinks vitamin D is not good and she also cites the study showing it was used in rat poison.

Thank-you for reminding me about the Bains Derivatifs. I had to stop for several days due to some remodeling and various things going on, but I did go swimming most days. I will start doing it again now that things have calmed down as it really helped me.

I guess the next questions would be what you consider fake folates. Obviously folic acid would be one of them and possibly msg, but you seem to have a list of ten!