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I disagree (lolz). A boy playing with dolls is not trans by any means. People are starting to get over gender roles and norms. I played with Ninja Turtles as a kid, and the Barbies my mom bought for me were strictly the girlfriends of the Ninja Turtles. I've never had an inkling of a feeling that I am a man, and I've never been called trans. Being trans is not simply liking things that the other sex is supposed to like.

Well, yeah, but that was back when you were growing up. This trans stuff is all reaching a level of exposure that is relatively new, so my point, as it relates to your example, would be that I'd wonder how that might have been different for you had you been a child in the year 2020. Of course, there is an excellent chance that it would have been exactly the same, except that you'd play with some new trendy toy instead of TMNT. But on the extreme side, there are parents like this, who make a choice for their child before the child really has in informed choice in the matter themselves. I think that's wrong, and though I really hate "slippery slope" arguments, gender reassignment is reaching new heights right now and I think it's appropriate to at least discuss the possible consequences of its proliferation.

Originally Posted by wheelchairman

Also people obsess way too much about the gender identities of children. Kids really don't care, but obsessive adults seem intent on making sure they're aware there is a gender dichotomy (defeats the point a little...)

For those who have struggled with gender identity, it pretty much all starts during childhood. Of course you can argue that it really started from their parents' teaching, but only inasmuch that everything kids know starts from adults. I'm not sure if it's ever going to be realistic for parents to stop talking about gender.

Well, yeah, but that was back when you were growing up. This trans stuff is all reaching a level of exposure that is relatively new, so my point, as it relates to your example, would be that I'd wonder how that might have been different for you had you been a child in the year 2020. Of course, there is an excellent chance that it would have been exactly the same, except that you'd play with some new trendy toy instead of TMNT. But on the extreme side, there are parents like this, who make a choice for their child before the child really has in informed choice in the matter themselves. I think that's wrong, and though I really hate "slippery slope" arguments, gender reassignment is reaching new heights right now and I think it's appropriate to at least discuss the possible consequences of its proliferation.

I'm not too sure that deciding your kid is trans is any worse than deciding your kid is going to do things that "fit their gender". The kid who's not trans whose parents decided is is going to end up with just as many complications as the trans kid whose parents force the kid to fit their gender. But most trans people do actually show signs of being trans from an early age, as you said below, and these parents could be responding appropriately.

I'm not too sure that deciding your kid is trans is any worse than deciding your kid is going to do things that "fit their gender".

But I just advocated the opposite of saying a kid should do things that "fit their gender." I'm advocating neither. All I'd like to see is for children to be taught to accept every part of their identity, including their anatomy, rather than accepting a social construct that's a pretty shitty deal to begin with. If they come to a proper decision to identify as a specific gender when they're old enough to decide something like that, more power to them. Transexualism isn't wrong, but I don't think someone can be transexual before they're old enough to even be sexual.

I think Feminist Hulk stated my feelings pretty succinctly:

That's just it. It IS a social construct. I guess I'm just more of a deconstructionist. Gender stereotypes were wrong when they were first formulated, and they're wrong now. I'm still concerned for the poor kid who has no desire to identify as the other gender, yet still wants to do things commonly associated with it.

I agree that it's not ideal, and hopefully someday it will be different. But it isn't now.

I also think the important thing about that tweet isn't the social construct part, it's the 'gender is not inconsequential, elective, or nonexistent' and 'smash barriers, not identities'.

I feel like when you and Richard talk about Manning not being a woman or whatever, it's uhh... smashing identities. She didn't grow up in 2050, in the world we live in I think it's important to acknowledge and identify people like Manning the way they wish to be identified. You know, so that someday we can break down these social constructs and just let people be the way they want to be. That doesn't just happen, you don't go from the shitty world we live in to a genderless utopia, you know?

I feel like there are parallels to be made with how horse shit it is to say things like 'I don't see color' and 'we just need to get along' while talking about racism, but I'm not sure how to articulate them at this moment.

This, by the way, reminded me of a ridiculous conversation I had recently. The problem when I discuss serious topics in person, though, is that I get shy and quiet because I don't have the ability to think things through as I type, nor fact check online. So this didn't end the way it should've.

This guy, Nebojsa, who is from Montenegro (where equality isn't even a consideration yet. It's currently popular to be homophobic) and I were talking about LGBT in general. He seemed mostly okay with the LGB part, but he didn't agree with the T part. His argument against it was a baby that was born somewhere in the Balkans (I forget where, but it might've been Slovenia). This baby had a vestigial penis, and the doctor had to decide what to do. So he removed the penis and the doctor along with the parents decided to raise this child as a girl. When the child was a teenager, they committed suicide because of a gender/sex issue.

Nebojsa's argument was that it proved that trans is wrong, that there's an absolute connection between sex and gender because changing this kid's gender caused mental trauma resulting in suicide.

My only response at that moment was, "I think that example actually is in favor of what I'm saying." He asked me what I meant, and I kinda froze up. But it really is. It proves that you DON'T choose your gender. You can't force someone to fit a gender that they don't mentally belong as without causing serious complications. That child was a boy and a male. Raising him as a girl was horrible mistake of an experiment. Plus I'm sure plenty of people viewed this situation the way Nebojsa did, and thus created a bunch more people who are anti-trans.

I've got no problem with transgender people, this is just so obviously a "fuck with the military" thing, knows he's going away, he can at least cause a little trouble and controversy as he's going down. They're obviously not going to pay for his reassignment surgery or hormones, but he can drag their name through the mud as he's going away for a couple of decades.

I feel like when you and Richard talk about Manning not being a woman or whatever, it's uhh... smashing identities. She didn't grow up in 2050, in the world we live in I think it's important to acknowledge and identify people like Manning the way they wish to be identified. You know, so that someday we can break down these social constructs and just let people be the way they want to be. That doesn't just happen, you don't go from the shitty world we live in to a genderless utopia, you know?

Xylo and I seem to be operating on the same wavelength here and since he's articulating the position far better than I could I've basically bowed out of the conversation. I'm just gonna pop back in for a moment though and say that I think encouraging someone who is biologically male to identify as female could actually reinforce social gender constructs rather than lay any kind of foundation for eventually smashing them. I'll tag Xylo back in now.

I also think Iran could be used to support my point of view but I'm not sure how best to formulate the idea, so uh, Xylo? You wanna run with that? Let's start perhaps with the foundation that anything the Iranian government fully supports has to be at least viewed with suspicion and caution. I think it's a pretty good example of how reassignment can be used as a nefarious tool to maintain the gender status quo. Iran would definitely acknowledge and identify people like Manning the way they wish to be identified but I don't see how that could ever lead to your genderless utopia.

Originally Posted by Eskimo

this is just so obviously a "fuck with the military" thing

No, no it isn't. That was my very first thought too but even the most cursory of research reveals that is not any kind of factor in this.

Last edited by Paint_It_Black; 09-01-2013 at 08:59 AM.

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