Philbb:Just as an aside; would they have been talking about these boys ruining their lives if they were not football players? If they had been, perhaps, very good students and members of the school band?

The lack of interest in the victim doesn't surprise me at all. I've known that since the beginning of the Penn State scandal when so people were all broke up over losing a coach and had no sympathy for the alleged victims.

Football is big business. Therefore, members of the football community have acted with impunity in a culture of rape for many, many moons.Which is why I compare Football culture to Pakistani Culture. Both groups have the same mindset. Our cause is the greater cause and our people (male) can do no wrong. Women cannot play. But they can be used as chattel.Gooooooooooooooo Team!

Bohoo they're registered sex offenders.At least they deserve to be on that list. I can't say I care a smidgy little stain about it after finding out you can get on it if you take a drunken leak behind a bush at midnight."I can't live closer than 500 yards to a school because I had one beer when I was 22 and the closest WC was five hundred meters away through a park." Does sound kinda stupid/not on the list, just thinks its meaningless//Can't actually be on the list. Not american citizen.

Bontesla:Genevieve Marie: rynthetyn: What pisses me off to no end is that the American media goes and acts like the US is so superior to India when covering the Delhi gang rape case, but then they turn around and do the exact same victim blaming and feeling sorry for the rapists that they love to point fingers about when it happens elsewhere.

You're not the first to make the comparison and it's most certainly a fair and accurate one. Anyone that denies we live in a rape culture isn't paying attention.

cman's "news entertainment" neologism is perfect for this situation. Now where's a picture of a TimeWarner executive asking, "Are you not sports entertained?"

1. The news media sucks in this country.2. I have to read other country's news and Twitter to get good news about my own country.3. Rape culture is a thing, and I'm not sorry the term makes people uncomfortable.4. Rape being condoned in this country should make you uncomfortable.5. Athlete worship in this country is out of hand too.

basemetal:Meh, people can talk to the points of the victim not putting themselves in compromising situations, but the fact remains that you don't take sexual advantage of people who are not able to defend or consent for themselves. I'm sure these boys have been told this, if not, then their parents failed them, because anymore, you damn well better have a talk to your kid about legalities of such behavior.

/sad for both sides//but it's hard to garner any sympathy for the boys

I've never had this talk with my boys. They just know it's wrong. Then again, they're not football players. Maybe it's something boys in the super hero, super macho world, need to be told.

Bontesla:We can't demand rape victims come forward if we refuse to protect them. If we blame them for tempting the rapists. If show more sympathize with their attackers than we show with the victims.

I am not demanding it. I am merely saying that if you let it go, then you condemn the next victim down the line. One rapist does not rape ONE victim. This event is not something that is shared just between the two people involved. The rapist will keep going until stopped, either by bullet, or by the courts.

Now if you really want a mindfark, just think of all the people in that chain that came BEFORE you.

doglover:Bontesla: Yogimus: Bontesla: Do you know how difficult it is to actually prove unwanted sexual contact when there's still evidence of wanted sexual contact?

Sure do. It is even harder when there is no history.

Which is largely inadmissible in court without prior conviction.

Either report or do not, but it's not a crime until it's reported. Police don't have psychics like Minority Report. If you want change in the world, you have to be that change.

We're responsible for the reason why rape victims largely don't come forward. Perhaps not you or I - but certainly our society. We punish the victims. We collectively ask what they could have done to be responsible for their own rapes.

This particular girl was bullied and threatened after she cameras forward. While that night was unfolding - people at the party rationalized that she deserves to be raped because she was drunk.

What incentive are we giving rape victims to come forward? But we should totally demand that all victims step forward to be treated like whores because they were victims of rape.

"What's the lasting effect though on two young men being found guilty juvenile court of rape essentially?"

Spend thee a fortnight in a Turkish prison. That's Juvenile Hall. At least it was last time I checked. Someone yesterday was pointing out that it was more like Club Med these days but I doubt it.So their lasting effect will be that if they make a mistake and sit on a Maglight, it's gone baby - gone.

Wolf_Blitzer:I'm not saying they shouldn't have to live with consequences of a heinous action for the rest of their lives, but if we make it impossible for criminals to function as law-abiding citizens once they are inevitably released, then we've gone from punishing criminals to actively manufacturing habitual offenders.

In many cases, I object to the stupid overuse of the sex offender registry and its permanently ostricizing nature... Someone taking a piss outside should not be placed on it... Nor should 18 year olds who were having fully consentual, but technically illegal, sex with their 17 year old girlfriend... But, assholes like this? They definitely belong on it! Actual rapists and child molesters should be the sole inhabitants of the registry... And, yes, they should be shunned by all of polite society... I think they should have to wear a special badge or something, so everyone will immediately know what they did everywhere they go...

But, it should be time limited, as well... After a few years of such universal ostricizing, wipe the slate clean, and let them try to reintegrate into society, somewhere where no one knows them... But, if they ever reoffend, they go on the list permanently... In fact, I'd say they should just stay locked up permanently in that case...

basemetal:Meh, people can talk to the points of the victim not putting themselves in compromising situations, but the fact remains that you don't take sexual advantage of people who are not able to defend or consent for themselves. I'm sure these boys have been told this, if not, then their parents failed them, because anymore, you damn well better have a talk to your kid about legalities of such behavior.

/sad for both sides//but it's hard to garner any sympathy for the boys

They were jocks and more specifically football players. They had been raised their entire lives to believe that the rules did not apply to them.

Bontesla:We're responsible for the reason why rape victims largely don't come forward. Perhaps not you or I - but certainly our society. We punish the victims. We collectively ask what they could have done to be responsible for their own rapes.

Why is rape the only crime that's a big deal in that department? Suppose somebody breaks into your house and steals all your stuff, so you mosey on down to the police station to file a report. Cop starts asking tough questions like "did you leave the door unlocked?", "do you have a dog?", "oh, you forgot to set your alarm system that day?" Victim blaming, I say! Next time that victim gets robbed, they'll be less likely to report it!

/ well not really, but only because there's not people like you going around convincing robbery victims that they should let their robbers go free instead of cooperating with the police.

I like what you're saying but we can't blame everyone. People don't know the basics, like what cops will do if a woman was abused. Victims don't know procedure, and could get bad information on what to do since it is never taught in schools. I would start there with blame. I had to go to several sexual assault classes during schoold because my demographic was the rapiest apparently. They are insightful on the law and what victims/criminals go through, not to mention getting an entire group of people to shoot off any question they can think of. One class every month during health class for one year would be a vast improvement.

/but no, we have to teach abstinence during that time//people have to learn how to not have sex?

We can't demand rape victims come forward if we refuse to protect them. If we blame them for tempting the rapists. If show more sympathize with their attackers than we show with the victims.

We, as a society, are responsible for this.

THIS. Look at what has been said about this poor girl. Seeing what women have to put up with when they accuse, I'm shocked any guy has the balls to say women are to blame if they don't come forward. There's tons of proof in this case, and they barely got a slap on the wrist. And she is STILL treated like she deserved it and the poor young men are ruined for life.

/I couldn't. I was 16. I didn't know him. And I was still terrified to come forward because of crap like this.//not coming back to this thread because I'm not putting myself through all the "more girls were raped because of you" bull.///girl from this story said she had one drink. It was likely spiked but there was no proof (boo puns) for trial. But go ahead, call her a drunk whore. Because if she deserved it, then it can't happen to you and yours, right?

Have you read about Halden prison? Worth a look if you have ten minutes to spare.

I don't have any time to spare on "reading assignments" - if you've something to say, and citation to support it, I'll be happy to listen.

It's a prison that treats the inmates as people, no matter what they've done to deserve prison time. They get a modicrum of freedom, education and worthwhile jobs all the while being given trust and respect from the prison staff.Even though they take in murderes and rapists violence is unheard of inside the prison walls and recidivism rates seems very low (although the prison is to new to give any sort of accurate reading of such yet). Inmates leave the prison as better people than they were when they went in. Seems like a good thing.

serial_crusher:Bontesla: We're responsible for the reason why rape victims largely don't come forward. Perhaps not you or I - but certainly our society. We punish the victims. We collectively ask what they could have done to be responsible for their own rapes.

Why is rape the only crime that's a big deal in that department? Suppose somebody breaks into your house and steals all your stuff, so you mosey on down to the police station to file a report. Cop starts asking tough questions like "did you leave the door unlocked?", "do you have a dog?", "oh, you forgot to set your alarm system that day?" Victim blaming, I say! Next time that victim gets robbed, they'll be less likely to report it!

/ well not really, but only because there's not people like you going around convincing robbery victims that they should let their robbers go free instead of cooperating with the police.

You think the robbery example is totally ridiculous, but in fact that is cultural, too.

I worked in Japan for a while. There is no property crime -- none. It is not accepted or tolerated, and it is not done.It is considered rude to wear your shoes into a dwelling, and so everywhere in Tokyo you see REALLY expensive pairs of shoes sitting unattended outside of doors. Same with bicycles. People ride them everywhere, and practically throw them in a pile at work in the morning and pick them up at the end of the day. No locks or anything.

Simply put, the level of any crime that exists in a culture exists because it is tolerated.

I don't see where that's not enough incentive unless you're in a position to get true justice somehow, that's a pretty sweet deal.

As for the shaming: that happens to everyone who accuses people of a crime. Your story will be taken apart with a fine toothed comb by people much smarter and more evil that you'll ever meet elsewhere because that's how lawyers make money. Lawyers DO have a weakness, though. Put a stake through their heart and it's over, just like every other blood sucker. Also they're vulnerable to hard evidence of the truth. Difficult to obtain, but something to consider.

To: doug from uplandThe poor, innocent, virginal, pure girl in this case just has such bad luck doesn't she?!She's a female and by definition not able to be accountable for her actions. Is that how it is? It's a question that occurs to me as I have followed this case.The girl is a disgrace to her family and her community. Tell me how she isn't.15 posted on Monday, March 18, 2013 2:21:57 AM by

I've yet to see any evidence that the two kids convicted were guilty of anything other than being douches. Another kid took the widely distributed photo of the girl being carried around and testimony in court said that the one teen stopped any sexual advances once he realized that the girl was unconscious.

Just so we're clear, the tweets talking about "you are so raped" were not sent by one of these two. One of these two did distribute a nude picture of the girl, so the child porn charge is warranted. Doesn't make him a rapist though.

I'll change my stance if somebody can show the evidence against these two.

serial_crusher:Bontesla: We're responsible for the reason why rape victims largely don't come forward. Perhaps not you or I - but certainly our society. We punish the victims. We collectively ask what they could have done to be responsible for their own rapes.

Why is rape the only crime that's a big deal in that department? Suppose somebody breaks into your house and steals all your stuff, so you mosey on down to the police station to file a report. Cop starts asking tough questions like "did you leave the door unlocked?", "do you have a dog?", "oh, you forgot to set your alarm system that day?" Victim blaming, I say! Next time that victim gets robbed, they'll be less likely to report it!

/ well not really, but only because there's not people like you going around convincing robbery victims that they should let their robbers go free instead of cooperating with the police.

I think rape is unique because of the element of consent. Investigations must determine if there was or wan't any. An unbiased investigation must explore both possibilities. A lot of people seem to have a problem with one of the possibilities being explored. Perhaps they don't want victims traumatized. Perhaps they don't want unbiased investigations.

The problem goes beyond police, though. Everyone thinks he/she is an investigator, even of things that happen on the other side of the farking planet.

Philbb:Just as an aside; would they have been talking about these boys ruining their lives if they were not football players? If they had been, perhaps, very good students and members of the school band?

When bandies stick their fingers up someone, she's conscious and has given permission.

Popcorn Johnny:I've yet to see any evidence that the two kids convicted were guilty of anything other than being douches. Another kid took the widely distributed photo of the girl being carried around and testimony in court said that the one teen stopped any sexual advances once he realized that the girl was unconscious.

Just so we're clear, the tweets talking about "you are so raped" were not sent by one of these two. One of these two did distribute a nude picture of the girl, so the child porn charge is warranted. Doesn't make him a rapist though.

I'll change my stance if somebody can show the evidence against these two.

Your stance is slightly less important than that of the judge who saw all the evidence. Being a juvenile case (inexplicably), getting you that evidence will prove difficult. So, I guess go on with whatever opinion you feel is warranted.

badhatharry:A big problem is that she was brought to multiple parties and nobody stopped them.

Who supplied the alcohol?If it had been Ecstasy or heroin, you better believe there would be an all out man hunt to find out where the impairment substances came from.Not One Word About where the alcohol came from.

Typhoid:Because if she deserved it, then it can't happen to you and yours, right?

And because if he deserved the criminal charges, then you and yours can't be thrown in jail for any drunken hookups.

/that's the reason for all the "rape culture" drama//parents have sons as well as daughters, and want their sons to be protected from rape accusations as much as they want their daughters to be protected from rape///and everybody wants the laws to be, "my children can do whatever they want, while everyone else's children should suffer the consequences."

poot_rootbeer:Young men (and women) need to be taught that in ANY situation except one where consent is clearly and freely given, do not proceed. No means no, but a lot of other things mean no, too.

You assume it's a misunderstanding. A lion doesn't give two shiats about how the gazelle feels. Most rape is predation. It is not a spontaneous event. The mark is chosen, groomed, separated from the crowd, and preyed upon. That whole "I thought she wanted it" is just a lie they tell after the fact, often to themselves as well as others.

How on earth does anyone object to the term rape culture? What else would you call the mores of a group that condone and minimize the horror of sexual assault?

How does her being intoxicated even come up in this discussion? I got plenty drunk at her age and nary a one of the guys I was partying with raped me. Usually they just stuck a pillow under my head and threw a blanket over me. Because they weren't, you know, rapists.That kind of behavior was frowned upon in the environment I grew up in. Sort of the opposite of a rape culture if you will.

The girl's family has received death threats. Because she reported an assault.

The authorities and adults in charge were complicit.

And assholes are lamenting the ruined futures of a couple of predators who kidnapped and raped a girl who had the audacity to break up with one of their teammates.

Have you read about Halden prison? Worth a look if you have ten minutes to spare.

I don't have any time to spare on "reading assignments" - if you've something to say, and citation to support it, I'll be happy to listen.

It's a prison that treats the inmates as people, no matter what they've done to deserve prison time. They get a modicrum of freedom, education and worthwhile jobs all the while being given trust and respect from the prison staff.Even though they take in murderes and rapists violence is unheard of inside the prison walls and recidivism rates seems very low (although the prison is to new to give any sort of accurate reading of such yet). Inmates leave the prison as better people than they were when they went in. Seems like a good thing.

It's an interesting social experiment - it's nowhere close to yielding any results. And when it does, if they actually have achieved anything new, I will be extremely surprised.There have been other mini-studies that looked promising too - and with salvageable people, some of them are "work". But they only succeed to the extent that they screen out the true sociopaths - easy to do if you limit your sample to 250 people.There is no evidence, to date, that sociopathy is a curable condition. A sociopath isn't broken - he is lacking components that cannot be installed after-market.With human beings, as so many have pointed out - if you fark up that first seven years enough, you have made a hairless ape - and there is no "magic" that can make that ape human.You see, I can tell you what those boys are thinking right now. They are angry. Angry that their lives have been messed up by a "lying biatch" who "can't be a sport". They think they have been "lynched".They will nurture that rage over the next few inconvenient and unpleasant years. Their attitudes toward "biatches" and "hoes" will harden. And someday, they will get even. Hope it isn't anybody you or me care about.

vudukungfu:badhatharry: A big problem is that she was brought to multiple parties and nobody stopped them.

Who supplied the alcohol?If it had been Ecstasy or heroin, you better believe there would be an all out man hunt to find out where the impairment substances came from.Not One Word About where the alcohol came from.

I don't care where the alcohol came from. Alcohol is not the problem. A farked up culture is the problem. I'm not saying things were perfect in the good ole days. Girls got raped in the back room at parties in the fifties too. It wasn't out in the open like this case. That kind of thing would get your ass kicked.

"There's always that moment of just, lives are destroyed," Callan lamented. "But in terms of what happens now, the most severe thing with these young men is being labeled as registered sex offenders. That label is now placed on them by Ohio law. That will haunt them for the rest of their lives."

Genevieve Marie:rynthetyn: I'm not entirely sure how, probably because my parents put virtually no restrictions on what I read and I ended up reading the right sort of books and articles, but I never bought into the idea that it was somehow a woman's fault if she's assaulted. If I'd been paying attention to the messages I was getting from the culture around me though, I would have come to totally different conclusions.

God bless Judy Blume. She saved a generation of women from growing up with weird ideas about sex.

Amen to this! My mom was very cool about not being restrictive about the books I read and she wasalso very forthright with me about sex. At the time, the latter aspect squiked me right the hell out, butin hindsight, it was one of the best things she did for me. I grew up knowing that sex was not a badthing but that it also was not something you could do without responsibility.

I have 2 boys - one 18 and one 11. Even though we are a Catholic family (husband more conservativelyso than me), we're not foolish enough to assume that our boys will stay virgins until marriage. I sureas hell didn't, and my husband didn't. We're very big on the whole "no means no", "drunken yes means no", "unconscious means no", etc...

I once told my oldest son, much to his embarrassment, "I don't care if you're poised and in the process of 'sliding home' - if the other person changes their mind, you stop. Period."