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Hi Alfonso,
Thanks for the background. In some ways it is similar to my own, although I was very fortunate to find an excellent teacher and training environment after training alone for some years. It is very difficult to go the "internals" route alone, and I give you a lot of credit for pursuing it.

For the research we did, try starting with some pole dancing...er... standing..er...hugging...trees. Pole standing or standing pole are good key words to find clips. If you have a local Chinese arts dojo, they can probably show you in person. I think when it comes to this stuff, you are way more likely to rush and not get it right. The exercise is simple - practice is hard. But, it gets you into a good basic stance - elongation of the spine, flattening of the back, pelvis resting below the spine and shoulders down. So don't skimp on the bent knees. You probably feel some discomfort in the "stretch" and your legs will protest the activity. In the beginning I would practice holding the posture for only many seconds in the beginning. After a while, I could listen to a song (I'm currently working on song #2). Yes, its that freaking hard. You'll also probably find you feel backward-[un]balanced because you're not pooching your butt out to counter balance your forward-leaning head. I am told this goes away. Oh, and don't tie your breathing to your posture, yet. In my experience, breathing is high on the pay scale - be satisfied you're not hyperventilating and save the fancy breathing for later.

Pole standing was the second exercise we worked on following torifune (6 directions). You can start to think 6 directions in pole standing, but in the beginning, the physical exertion will probably consume your attention. Eventually, we connected torifune to pole standing from the concept that torifune is pole standing with a foot dropped rearward and dynamic movement shifting forward and rearward. If you can't pole stand, then keeping that posture when moving ain't gonna happen.

As a note, we do not practice big movement tori fune. Our tori fune is more similar to a karate punch transfer, focusing on a erect spine, powered legs, shoulders down and natural extension with a focus on the connectivity of the elbow to the torso. The weight shift accompanies a slight opening and closing of the knees to maintain a strong base. This is not a critique against any other rowing exercise (unless you're not doing it that way, then you're are wrong, of course ).

The strong base was our third exercise. We called it Dragon stepping. Later, I found out what we were doing was "slightly" different than a more correct version we learned. (This is an inside joke for our attendees at Dan's seminar last February). But, our basic understanding of dragon stepping got us going. Very active legs with the front knee "opened" to facilitate released the actively held potential energy, athletic bend in the knees to engage both sides of the leg and a nice rounded arch in the crotch (or "croarch").

I think these exercises helped us to prepare to see and understand the subsequent corrections we received without negatively impacting our training. It also helped that we had many friend visiting and keeping us honest.

Matthew, intent* is involved in 6 direction exercise. Phi , I thought it was up down front back , inwards outwards. not 6 sided dice orientation, but that is probably not going to make sense to people until it does.

Cady, Brett : I did my Aikido training at ADV from 98 to 2008, roughly, I passed my shodan exam in 2006 , Dennis Hooker and Fredric Rowell graded me. ADV is a school affiliated with ASU. I first felt "aiki" from Ikeda sensei around 98. People did not talk about aiki openly back then or now, because of uncertainty I think mostly. I started loooking into this around 2005 because of experiences at seminars with teachers of Aikido. My teachers were well versed in Aiki in the way that Michael Varin refers to it. But I also met other teachers like Henry Kono, that were doing unsual things which I wanted to learn more about.

I've spent most of my Internal Training time since 2006 on my own, on its own. It is very hard to learn to move all over again when you are doing something you have done well before. My training conisted of mostly standing and practicing 6 directions until I could develop enough to start teasing out the body logic.

While I was at ADV I lobbied for Dan to be asked over for many years. I am happy that he has made friends with my friends and my old teacher. My training though, is my own. I am putting together what I can based on the inescapable body logic that becomes available over time with practice. Mike Sigman has been very forthcoming.

I hope that helps clarify something for someone

For my edification, will you please tell us what aiki is in the way Michael Varin refers to it?

-Michael
"Through aiki we can feel the mind of the enemy who comes to attack and are thus able to respond immediately." - M. Mochizuki

manipulate both the intent and body of another, and even learn to read someone's intentions before they have initiated any actions.

Alfonso, that's one of the outcomes of aiki -- not aiki itself -- and I did not intend it to be a definition of aiki.

And yet it sounds a lot like "capturing the mind", which is how I was taught "aiki" operated. I can see you mean something different, whereas this "aiki" I was taught had more to do with manipulating perception. In any case it is confusing that the term aiki is used differently in different aikido circles. That includes the "spiritual" takes. I suppose I'm just making things more confusing than not.

How is this all related to 6 directions in internal training, and how this can be part or not of aikido?

I was going to post these links earlier, but got busy and didn't have time to do it until now. To address the current topic though, I don't see aiki as about "capturing the mind' particularly, except, as Cady suggested as a consequence.

O-Sensei said "In this thing called Aiki, first describe (draw) a circle. Drawing a circle is, in other words, opposing powers. Without touching with even one finger your opponent will be sent flying." (Quoted by Chris Li in his blog.)

In my understanding, this circle of opposing powers is exactly opening in 6 directions, which is silk reeling. So, according to the founder, this skill is at the core of aikido. And it's the basis for creating in/yo, dual opposing spirals, putting Iganami in the left hand and Inazami in the right, and standing on the floating bridge of Heaven, all of which he also said were the basis for Aikido, but go read Chris' blog to find out how.

Trouble is all this stuff gets hidden in Aikido waza. So to respond to somebody's (Ron's?) question from earlier, here are some examples of IP/aiki showing up in demos when the demonstrator got tired of showing waza and decided to show the real stuff.

These are just examples picked out by me, choosing moments when there was little going on to distract from the aiki elements. Others might argue with me about what I'm seeing here--because internals are in fact internal, it's hard to be sure what you're seeing.

Here's my understanding (and also what I am able to do): Opening up in 6 directions... front-back, up-down, side-side... and actually in all directions (so, infinite diagonals in between those 6 main points) creates a sphere (a structural "force field"), of which you are the center. It creates a very powerful stability in you and, coupled with the maintaining of an arcing body structure to direct and re-direct force to an from the ground, it creates what the Chinese internal arts call "Peng jing," the primary force used to power waza. Peng power is the core power of aiki-age and aiki-sage... manifestations of Peng (dunno any Japanese term for it) that involve rolling that invisible sphere in the direction you want uke's body to go. Or bouncing him off... or spinning him off tangentially (he feels his force moving away, as though on the surface of a spinning ball). Now you can add the spirals... and that's where silk-reeling comes in.

Silk-reeling is not the 6 directions or Peng; however, it works hand-in-hand with Peng, and also you're always working the 6 directions to maintain your structure, and in that regard when you are silk-reeling you are expressing the 6 directions. But the reeling itself is a specific thing -- setting in motion a constant In-Yo/Yin-Yang trade of opposing forces using a figure-eight type of movement from your kuas, combined with actions initiated from the feet and legs. This is the source of huge power which can be used to move uke irresistibly into a throw, or to power ate-waza, strikes and kicks. An experienced practitioner can do this without looking like they are overtly moving -- you won't see their hips or legs move, or just tiny, minute "twitches" maybe. The movements are so small and refined that they are generating great power with minimal motion in nage... but the effect it will have on uke will be magnified.

When you see someone do aiki-age on uke, then throw him off to the side, it's an exercise using Peng, and silk-reeling power. First, Peng to capture and unseat uke's center, then reeling him off into the throw.

And yet it sounds a lot like "capturing the mind", which is how I was taught "aiki" operated. I can see you mean something different, whereas this "aiki" I was taught had more to do with manipulating perception. In any case it is confusing that the term aiki is used differently in different aikido circles. That includes the "spiritual" takes. I suppose I'm just making things more confusing than not.

How is this all related to 6 directions in internal training, and how this can be part or not of aikido?

I learned kurai dori was taking the mind. Not aiki, but a building block of it. I also learned musubi was connecting to your partner. Not aiki, but a building block of it. Both can be done to a level of skill as to express similar properties to aiki. I think the aiki I am starting to identify is not these things, although these things are expressed in aiki. So is kuzushi. It's like I need a ven diagram or something.

Cady and Hugh have some great comments. I think the big difference in 6 directions is that that training is not dependent on a partner. Meaning that my ability to self-sustain my stability is the key component. Many aikido exercises actually require a partner. For example, kurai dori requires another mind to capture (take). Musubi requires a partner with who to be connected. Let alone the mental shift from doing something to someone to being someone.

So 6 directions for me has taken on a solo exercise feel; even if my partner is testing my stability, i am not creating a relationship with her. We have started changing our training to establish our stability first, then worry about musubi, kurai dori, kuzushi. So it is aikido, but we just have to make room for it in our training.

Here's my understanding (and also what I am able to do): Opening up in 6 directions... front-back, up-down, side-side... and actually in all directions (so, infinite diagonals in between those 6 main points) creates a sphere (a structural "force field"), of which you are the center. It creates a very powerful stability in you and, coupled with the maintaining of an arcing body structure to direct and re-direct force to an from the ground, it creates what the Chinese internal arts call "Peng jing," the primary force used to power waza. Peng power is the core power of aiki-age and aiki-sage... manifestations of Peng (dunno any Japanese term for it) that involve rolling that invisible sphere in the direction you want uke's body to go. Or bouncing him off... or spinning him off tangentially (he feels his force moving away, as though on the surface of a spinning ball). Now you can add the spirals... and that's where silk-reeling comes in.

Silk-reeling is not the 6 directions or Peng; however, it works hand-in-hand with Peng, and also you're always working the 6 directions to maintain your structure, and in that regard when you are silk-reeling you are expressing the 6 directions. But the reeling itself is a specific thing -- setting in motion a constant In-Yo/Yin-Yang trade of opposing forces using a figure-eight type of movement from your kuas, combined with actions initiated from the feet and legs. This is the source of huge power which can be used to move uke irresistibly into a throw, or to power ate-waza, strikes and kicks. An experienced practitioner can do this without looking like they are overtly moving -- you won't see their hips or legs move, or just tiny, minute "twitches" maybe. The movements are so small and refined that they are generating great power with minimal motion in nage... but the effect it will have on uke will be magnified.

When you see someone do aiki-age on uke, then throw him off to the side, it's an exercise using Peng, and silk-reeling power. First, Peng to capture and unseat uke's center, then reeling him off into the throw.

Dear Cady,
Pray tell me what is /where is the kuas? I have tried to get a definition of this phrase on the net-no luck.Chinese is not my forte[except on a Chinese Restaurant menu].Same with the word Peng.It would seem that Peng equates with or is power generated by correct use of the seika tanden/hara/tantien.????
Perhaps the concept might be related to Kokyu Ryoku? Any answers would be welcome preferably on a twenty dollar bill. Have a niceday, Joe

Dear Cady,
Pray tell me what is /where is the kuas? I have tried to get a definition of this phrase on the net-no luck.Chinese is not my forte[except on a Chinese Restaurant menu].Same with the word Peng.It would seem that Peng equates with or is power generated by correct use of the seika tanden/hara/tantien.????
Perhaps the concept might be related to Kokyu Ryoku? Any answers would be welcome preferably on a twenty dollar bill. Have a niceday, Joe

Hi Joe,
The "kua" is the area of the femoral joint, where the femur head rests within the pelvis. More specifically, it includes the muscles and connective tissues the surround the hip, and also the inguinal fold -- the visible crease along either side of the groin.

"Peng" is conceptually the quality of "fullness" that is created through manipulation of the body structure -- you're essentially making yourself into a "sphere" of outward-projecting force from your entire body. Yes, the tanden/dantien is involved, along with the meimon/mingmen. And all of the work of extending the spine, "rounding" the body to create a non-breaking arc-like path for force direction, are part of the process of creating and maintaining that state of peng.

In many contemporary aikido schools, it's that essence of "peng" that is missing from kokyu-ho type exercises, where you're in seiza with your partner holding your wrists down. Instead of muscle strength and tricks of timing to unbalance the partner, it should be peng, as expressed in aiki-age, doing the work.

Hope that helps. Sorry it's in electronic writing rather than on paper currency.

If I'm understanding this thread correctly, it seems to me that learning to open up and operate in all 6 directions at once is Aikido's equivalent of learning how to throat/overtone sing.

Hi Jen,
I've heard Mongolian throat singing, which is amazing. I couldn't say whether it's a comparison to working multiple directions in the body, though. Think of the latter as attaining a harmony or balance between pulling/pushing the joints and tissues of the body up-down, forward-backward, side-side. You can throw in criss-cross (left shoulder-right foot; right shoulder-left foot) for good measure. It is driven by mental intent (the "reaching of the cup of coffee" thing).

If that's how one manipulates the vocal cords to throat-sing, then that is very cool.

Hugh,
It occurred to me that it's the Six Harmonies you're thinking of, for creating spiral power... not the "six directions" that are just the shorthand for structure work and a component of peng.
Six Harmonies is a whole 'nother big discussion.

Don't think so. I'm aware of the 6 Harmonies concept and I think you're right about it having more to do with spiral power. But it's not what I'm talking about above. What did I say that made you think so?

Hugh, I dont agree with your definitions. I have met Gleason sensei and taken ukemi for him. He never said anything about silk reeling being what he does. I did not see any silk reeling movement from him. He did talk about aiki and izanami and izanagi, and asagao and aiki age and aiki sage; a lot.
I never heard him say Peng or Peng Jin, and he did not talk about 6 direction training either. I could clearly feel he used Jin ( what I call AIki) ; he was very able to do Aikido with it; and he and Ikeda sensei feel really really similar. It seems like technical terms from different chinese arts (yiquan, taijiquan) are being used to talk about related matters but not in the way people in those arts use them.

What I see here described as 6 directions sounds a lot like 'keep one point'.

Don't think so. I'm aware of the 6 Harmonies concept and I think you're right about it having more to do with spiral power. But it's not what I'm talking about above. What did I say that made you think so?

More later.

It just came to mind when you wrote: In my understanding, this circle of opposing powers is exactly opening in 6 directions, which is silk reeling. So, according to the founder, this skill is at the core of aikido. And it's the basis for creating in/yo, dual opposing spirals, putting Iganami in the left hand and Inazami in the right, and standing on the floating bridge of Heaven, all of which he also said were the basis for Aikido, but go read Chris' blog to find out how.

Maybe I'm just reading it the wrong way.
(Internal) spiral power certainly is part of the core of Ueshiba's aikido; the 6 Harmonies, as I understand them, involves the mechanics of that process, while "6 directions" is more or less our (we folks on the "aiki bus") shorthand for working the In/Yo process of building structure and laying the fundamental groundwork for making IP 'n' aiki.

Hugh, I dont agree with your definitions. I have met Gleason sensei and taken ukemi for him. He never said anything about silk reeling being what he does. I did not see any silk reeling movement from him. He did talk about aiki and izanami and izanagi, and asagao and aiki age and aiki sage; a lot.

I never heard him say Peng or Peng Jin, and he did not talk about 6 direction training either. I could clearly feel he used Jin ( what I call AIki) ; he was very able to do Aikido with it; and he and Ikeda sensei feel really really similar. It seems like technical terms from different chinese arts (yiquan, taijiquan) are being used to talk about related matters but not in the way people in those arts use them.

What I see here described as 6 directions sounds a lot like 'keep one point'.

I think it's cool that you've trained with my teacher. Are you part of the group out there that has him come do seminars every year?

And you're not wrong, actually. I don't attempt to speak for my teacher, and I don't claim that whatever I say is what he says. Much of what I wrote above is not from him only; it's my synthesis from several places. I don't think he'd disagree, but it's not my place to say.

To take your points in order--differentiate pulling silk from reeling silk. Pulling silk is Chinese terminology for 6-directions, so far as I can tell. Reeling silk is pulling silk in movement. In practice this generally turns into spirals because that's the best way for a human body to manifest in/yo everywhere. But there's a lot more subtlety there, and a number of different models for how to move the body, so once you start moving there's no simple equivalence in the different terminology.

I also wouldn't attempt to assign "jin" to any simple Japanese or Aikido concept. The Chinese are systematizers in a way the Japanese are not, and there's a million different types of jin. Peng jin comes pretty close to 6-directions and chan si jin is close to spiraling, but I don't know enough to about the Chinese models to say if it's an exact match. I'm quite sure Sensei showed you spiraling.

As to your last point, yes, I think this all is very much what Tohei was getting at with "keep one point." But how? What does that mean? How do you work on it? Turns out there is a history and methodology around that.

Quote:

Cady Goldfield wrote:

It just came to mind when you wrote: In my understanding, this circle of opposing powers is exactly opening in 6 directions, which is silk reeling. So, according to the founder, this skill is at the core of aikido. And it's the basis for creating in/yo, dual opposing spirals, putting Iganami in the left hand and Inazami in the right, and standing on the floating bridge of Heaven, all of which he also said were the basis for Aikido, but go read Chris' blog to find out how.

Maybe I'm just reading it the wrong way.
(Internal) spiral power certainly is part of the core of Ueshiba's aikido; the 6 Harmonies, as I understand them, involves the mechanics of that process, while "6 directions" is more or less our (we folks on the "aiki bus") shorthand for working the In/Yo process of building structure and laying the fundamental groundwork for making IP 'n' aiki.

Crap. I wrote "...which is silk reeling" when I meant pulling silk. My bad. It's all the fault of the Chinese for confusing terminology. My apologies. Pulling silk corresponds to 6-directions which is balancing forces within yourself.

Once you have another person involved, then you have in/yo at the point of contact set into motion by spirals throughout the frame, which was what O-Sensei was talking about when he talks about Izanagi and Izanami. I think that's the same as reeling silk but I don't have the background to say.

So I think, once you understand that I was really talking about two separate layers of skill and once I fix my typo for pulling rather than reeling silk, that we're pretty much in agreement.

Last edited by hughrbeyer : 10-14-2013 at 10:20 PM.
Reason: Edited to remove some unnecessary snark.

Hugh, I dont agree with your definitions. I have met Gleason sensei and taken ukemi for him. He never said anything about silk reeling being what he does. I did not see any silk reeling movement from him. He did talk about aiki and izanami and izanagi, and asagao and aiki age and aiki sage; a lot.
I never heard him say Peng or Peng Jin, and he did not talk about 6 direction training either. I could clearly feel he used Jin ( what I call AIki) ; he was very able to do Aikido with it; and he and Ikeda sensei feel really really similar. It seems like technical terms from different chinese arts (yiquan, taijiquan) are being used to talk about related matters but not in the way people in those arts use them.

What I see here described as 6 directions sounds a lot like 'keep one point'.

I checked my notes from Bill's workshop in Hawaii, and I don't see references to "silk reeling" either, but there are references to "six directions", and "spirals" and "spiraling": terminology used by Morihei Ueshiba that is conceptually related to silk reeling (though if anyone feels that's open to discussion, I suppose we're in the right forum for that).

I agree with you regarding his ability to express aiki. One of the things I noted in meeting Bill was that he is adamant about expressing internal power within the context of aikido; and as a teacher using his understanding and interpretation of, and ability to express aiki to help enhance and polish a given aikidoka's understanding of the art as the student has come to cherish it -- vs. bolting on anything to aikido. Given his aikido CV, and via seeing his interpretations of waza and taking ukemi for him, I think he's a fine ambassador for the mission he's undertaken.

As to your last point, yes, I think this all is very much what Tohei was getting at with "keep one point." But how? What does that mean? How do you work on it? Turns out there is a history and methodology around that.

I agree with Hugh here in several areas. Back in the mid 70's I took some ukemi from Tohei Sensei, went through the ki exercises presented at the time and can see that the 4 principles that he talked could be connected with the solo exercises from Dan that are being worked by many of us now could be aligned with the 4. The problem then was there was no explanation, at least with the folks who I can in contact with.

Every time I heard some one use the term "keep one point" I ask how do you teach that and what is the feeling, the manifestation of that? Never got an clear approach to answering this until I started going outside of Aikido, getting hints that allowed me to put together some of the bits and pieces I have gotten over the years within Aikido. Dan put the final pieces in place to help me in my efforts to figure it out (as far as I have).

Just some thoughts here (partial connections)..... keeping one point is in part pulling silk, extending ki is using intent to pull silk, relaxing completely is getting the shoulders out of the mix, weight underside is sinking or dropping (not always a manifestation that can be seen physically) shoulders under elbows under hands and a lot more.

This whole thing is like a giant puzzle that has so many pieces with everyone working to put it together. It seems that many having put enough pieces together to see something that is comfortable for them, fits on top of what they have already are good with that and stop searching. I am ok with that and with everyone doing what they want. As for me after nearly 40 years of training and heading toward 72 years of age......I don't see that we even have the outer edge of the puzzle together. I know that old friends like John Clodig and Walter Muryasz, along with a new friend Dan Harden have helped me see more of the whole than I got to earlier. Along with other I have met along the way, Mark, Marc, Sean from i Liq Chuan and many more that helped with adding pieces.

My point here...get out and see what is out there.....then play with it, ask for hands on help and see where the pieces fall.

Yep, we're on the same page. Thanks for the clarification. I'm not well versed in the Chinese "tai chi classics" terminology, as my current work uses a different terminology, but they and the abstract metaphors drawn from the Kojiki certainly describe the body principles I've experienced. In my understanding. "silk reeling" is the term that refers to the process of working the kuas (with legs and feet) to create the "reeling" that generates spiral power.

Quote:

Hugh Beyer wrote:

Crap. I wrote "...which is silk reeling" when I meant pulling silk. My bad. It's all the fault of the Chinese for confusing terminology. My apologies. Pulling silk corresponds to 6-directions which is balancing forces within yourself.

Once you have another person involved, then you have in/yo at the point of contact set into motion by spirals throughout the frame, which was what O-Sensei was talking about when he talks about Izanagi and Izanami. I think that's the same as reeling silk but I don't have the background to say.

So I think, once you understand that I was really talking about two separate layers of skill and once I fix my typo for pulling rather than reeling silk, that we're pretty much in agreement.

To take your points in order--differentiate pulling silk from reeling silk. Pulling silk is Chinese terminology for 6-directions, so far as I can tell. Reeling silk is pulling silk in movement. In practice this generally turns into spirals because that's the best way for a human body to manifest in/yo everywhere. But there's a lot more subtlety there, and a number of different models for how to move the body, so once you start moving there's no simple equivalence in the different terminology.

i thought the pulling silk and reeling silk thingy were from the chen and yang taiji war. the chen guys said their stuffs were reeling silk. the yang guys said we pulled silk. of course we all know that back in the old days (new days too) that women lingerie made out of silk (men too because some of us like the smoothneess). of course, after the yang guys got slap a bunch of time by women out shopping at the market, they changed their tune. now they said they are reeling silk too. i remembered Sigman explained the whole reeling silk in the single arm waving thingy (similar to the queen thing but less aristocratic) which comprised of up, down, away from you, and toward you. didn't understand it at the time, but then one day (it was a bitter cold winter day in hell and they were serving kimchi with grits!) things just clicked and i understood it. don't ask me to explain it, but i can show you in person; only take about 5 min, more or less, a bit less than more, but more than most.

btw, don't ever jumping on a bed covered with silk sheets, wearing silk pajamas. you would slingshot yourself right off and get hot wax from candles that you setup for a romantic evening. damn hot wax!!

Quote:

I also wouldn't attempt to assign "jin" to any simple Japanese or Aikido concept. The Chinese are systematizers in a way the Japanese are not, and there's a million different types of jin. Peng jin comes pretty close to 6-directions and chan si jin is close to spiraling, but I don't know enough to about the Chinese models to say if it's an exact match. I'm quite sure Sensei showed you spiraling.

When Ikeda sensei said "line", interpret that as "jin". also, there can be only one "jin". i always enjoyed the highlander movie. it's great that guys can walk around wearing school girl mini-skirt. and if you have problem with that, they would take off your head.

Quote:

As to your last point, yes, I think this all is very much what Tohei was getting at with "keep one point." But how? What does that mean? How do you work on it? Turns out there is a history and methodology around that.

ya. it called silk reeling. it's the damn silk stuffs. did you know that deep fried silk worms are very tasty, a bit crunchy, with nutty flavor?

I think "keep one point" is a great reminder phrase. I am not sure if is the best way to teach the concept, but I think it is acceptable to use the phrase to describe that which your already know.

I think there needs to be a grain of salt taken with anything that requires equating Japanese and Chinese concepts. I understand that cultural relationship to be... complicated. I think in some cases, right now, the descriptions should be kept in cultural context and not "converted". Eventually, I think we will see a common terminology emerge.

Matt,
It's more the wordless willfulness that precedes any action. When you reach for the cup of coffee, it's intent that initiates and drives the event, from the time you desire a sip of coffee, to the moment the cup is at your lips. Desire fires intent, intent initiates and effects action.