Whitechapel - Polyamoury, monogamishness, non-normativity, Oh My!2015-08-02T19:40:26-05:00http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/
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Polyamoury, monogamishness, non-normativity, Oh My!http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=11148&Focus=357455#Comment_3574552013-08-29T06:30:12-05:002013-08-29T06:30:41-05:00Magnulushttp://freakangels.com/whitechapel/account.php?u=6716
Okay, so there's probably a few of us here who don't fall neatly into the heteronormative idea of relationships where we meet the Love of Our Life and stay with that person for ever and ever and ever ...
It would be interesting to hold a conversation about this sort of thing here. A completely open-minded, sex-positive and non-judgmental conversation on relationships, fetishes, Sex Beyond The Genitals, etc. I don't mean that we all have to be fine with everything that is ever said, but that we refrain from Being Dicks about other people's choices, be they normative or not. Asking questions is a good way to start one's own acceptance of other people's lifestyle choices, saying "Eewwww, you're weird." is not.

So yeah.

I kind of have to leave it there for now, but I'd love to hear some thoughts. This was sparked by the August Hugs thread where open relationships have been briefly touched on, so maybe start there? Me and my wife are open, we date and have sexual encounters with other people. I will go deeper into that later on, but I thought I would start us off.]]>
Polyamoury, monogamishness, non-normativity, Oh My!http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=11148&Focus=357459#Comment_3574592013-08-29T07:40:39-05:002015-08-02T19:40:26-05:00costa_khttp://freakangels.com/whitechapel/account.php?u=6592
I had this conversation with a good friend of mine recently about sexual preferences in terms of "kinks," and it had me thinking about the clash between two different cliches. One states ...
Polyamoury, monogamishness, non-normativity, Oh My!http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=11148&Focus=357460#Comment_3574602013-08-29T07:49:51-05:002015-08-02T19:40:26-05:00Michael Waynehttp://freakangels.com/whitechapel/account.php?u=7739
I have nothing against people who play the field.
I simply do not relate to them.
My whole thing has always been to fall in love slowly and carefully, and then commit all the way. The reason ...
I simply do not relate to them.

My whole thing has always been to fall in love slowly and carefully, and then commit all the way. The reason is I never want to let anybody go. I can't accept goodbyes, when even big problems can usually be fixed when both people are willing to do the hard work. I will fight to stay in the relationship.

And yeah, monogamy is one of my demands. I demand a lot from my friends and my employers too, so maybe it's just a function of my boring, white bread, square personality.

You are describing a situation which to me is two things at once. You are in a committed relationship. You play the field too. To you, it is one thing, or perhaps the same thing. I promise not to go back and forth with you in a pointless argument if you care to elaborate on what I'm missing. I know you're not "weird," in fact, I'm probably the one who's in the minority on this. But you and I ARE different.]]>
Polyamoury, monogamishness, non-normativity, Oh My!http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=11148&Focus=357463#Comment_3574632013-08-29T08:52:15-05:002013-08-29T09:09:55-05:00oldhathttp://freakangels.com/whitechapel/account.php?u=75
Yeah, this is one of those topics that is kind of triggering to me because I was told, quite often by people I liked, that I was an unevolved simpleton who didn't "get it" just because I ...
And on the flip side of things, I have many non-monogamous friends who have been told, by people they like, that they are weird and must be shallow, completely missing the point of things by assuming it as something like what Mags said above.

I'll be reading this with interest.

And I trust that I don't need to tell people the difference between "this works for me personally" and "this works", yes? Yes.]]>
Polyamoury, monogamishness, non-normativity, Oh My!http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=11148&Focus=357465#Comment_3574652013-08-29T09:18:28-05:002013-08-29T09:20:58-05:00Jason A. Questhttp://freakangels.com/whitechapel/account.php?u=5192
When I started dating my first I-think-this-is-serious boy/girlfriend years ago, she and I lived over an hour apart, and couldn't see each other very often, so it went without saying that we were ...
who she did. And I'd tell her how my weekend went. We weren't "playing the field" – auditioning prospects to replace each other – any more than when she just went to the bar and met new people (and didn't have sex with them). That's not what an "open relationship" meant to either of us. She had her friends (some of whom she sometimes screwed) and I had mine (ditto). We also had each other, which was something else. I wouldn't say that we were committed to each other, and we eventually broke up, but that was because of other factors – one of us being batshit crazy (opinions differ on which one) – not because either of us was lured away by some other woman/man.]]>
Polyamoury, monogamishness, non-normativity, Oh My!http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=11148&Focus=357469#Comment_3574692013-08-29T10:42:48-05:002013-08-29T10:43:38-05:00glukkakehttp://freakangels.com/whitechapel/account.php?u=1693
One of my favourite conversations I got into with a friend about poly vs mono was that there was no way for her to not get jealous/upset if her partner had sex with other people. She requires ...
In fact, I get so annoyed by the proponents of polyamory because now every time I even bring it up, the first thing people say to me is how they're not going to change their mind on their own desire for monogamy and that I should put away my propaganda/monogamy shaming. It's like I have to start off on the defensive and with multiple disclaimers before I can even talk about myself. Oldhat & I have already talked about that in person ;)

But quite honestly, I'm new to this, so I'd like a forum to explore it that isn't jumping into a full on community echo chamber, so I'm really happy it came to Whitechapel.

My previous relationship of 7 years started as open for me, in that I could go sleep with my girlfriends and occasionally bring them home. It ended for multiple reasons, but a huge one was my partner's growing discomfort with the set up, starting with him getting blackout drunk and calling me a slut and the last straw being when he called one of my girlfriends a whore, to her face, behind my back (also while blackout drunk). Around this time, I also started developing anxieties on why I couldn't also sleep with men - to me, there isn't a difference in men or women and I found it insulting to feel like there isn't anything "to be worried about" just because my female partners don't have a penis. As if that's the only thing keeping me around. I know there's a lot more compacted into it, but it's not something I want to deal with.

So now I have a mister that is completely OK with our lack of definition of a relationship. We started as a casual hookup situation while seeing other people. He's been my best friend for a good part of a decade and I was really happy that when I first changed the situation, he had a girl out in Chicago that he was seeing every other month. He was the first person who encouraged me to go after another guy I wanted to sleep with and as time has gone on, he's more comfortable if I just tell him I can't see him that evening because I'm seeing someone else - one time I was very intentionally vague and he was anxious all night that I was mad at him/hated him for some reason I wouldn't tell him. Before, I'd be in situations where people didn't want to know and I'd just have to make vague "I have a meeting with someone, be out all night" noises. He sees the occasional other woman on the side (he's straight) and sometimes we bring someone home, but we also establish that we want time alone with each other. It's nice and relatively stress free so long as we're open and communicative.

Which, feeling safe enough to communicate what I want and what I'm doing with myself is all I've ever really wanted. So, so many relationships ended because in the end, I had to hide who/what I am due to my partner's feelings. And then I'd start using someone else as my emotional dump and either end up cheating with said person or essentially cuckolding them as a "boyfriend for emotions only".

Obviously, everything isn't super perfect double rainbows all the time, but that's where I'm starting off. I've dealt with what makes me feel insecure (I don't really get jealous but I can get worried about cheating and people keeping secrets from me) and for a while I was trying to get into a triad (which is ridiculously difficult and as my first foray with poly people was a bit of a heartbreak). But this is basically all within the past two years in my spare time, when I wasn't focusing on my main mistress, Work.]]>
Polyamoury, monogamishness, non-normativity, Oh My!http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=11148&Focus=357475#Comment_3574752013-08-29T11:22:47-05:002015-08-02T19:40:26-05:00allanahttp://freakangels.com/whitechapel/account.php?u=4019
I was monogamous early on, with my first three-ish relationships. The third was long-distance and, after about three months, the question simply became "why the hell?" It was just an ...
I didn't date properly again until my current boyfriend, with whom I've never been monogamous. We like each other a whole ton of a lot, but I've always been the travelling one and he's always had stuff going on at home with other people. Now that we live together in a strange new city, we're having all these discussions about logistics and time-sharing and disclosure for the first time. We discussed physical protection, and the basics of how not to lead someone else on, but I've always left his negotations with other partners up to him. So far so good, but certainly there have been a few sticking points.

For example, I'm starting to get really offended when his other partners don't want to meet me. Like, even casually or accidentally, not in a formalized getting-to-know-you way. I get that it's not everyone's bag, but the vehemence of some people who he dates casually is really bewildering to me. Like, I'm not the enemy, and it's kinda by the grace of my good will that your relationship with my boyfriend is going on at all. Yet you still think so low of me, or are so jealous of my existence, or are so incapable of thinking about the whole package deal you're getting into, that it makes you uncomfortable to even acknowledge my existence? It's only through repetition that it's becoming an issue with me.

I haven't dated someone else seriously in the context of this relationship. I still have some long-distance stuff, but it's not common. I'm not particularly anxious to jump that hurdle, mostly because I'm pretty satisfied with him and am too busy to be lonely (and too anti-social to stumble across anyone I can't help liking). When/if it happens, we'll see. I think I'm happy enough to have theoretical non-monogamy that I don't really need to practice it enthusiastically. But I can't really imagine telling the boy to quit his other endeavours. That just seems like a rotten thing to do -- it's a serious part of his identity to meet new people in a romantic context; I doubt it could be stopped without causing him serious emotional damage (even if the last few women he's been with have been disappointing on some level or other).

Is it a copout to say that he's just drawn that way?]]>
Polyamoury, monogamishness, non-normativity, Oh My!http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=11148&Focus=357476#Comment_3574762013-08-29T11:25:03-05:002015-08-02T19:40:26-05:00allanahttp://freakangels.com/whitechapel/account.php?u=4019
Also I find "playing the field" a vaguely offensive phrase.
Polyamoury, monogamishness, non-normativity, Oh My!http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=11148&Focus=357478#Comment_3574782013-08-29T11:33:48-05:002013-08-29T11:37:18-05:00oldhathttp://freakangels.com/whitechapel/account.php?u=75
I do as well. And it's indicative of the lack of knowledge or understanding that happens when a person tries to talk about something they don't personally relate to.
@longtimelurker, I realize ...
@longtimelurker, I realize you probably didn't mean it that way, but "playing the field" isn't really correct and insinuates that interpersonal relationships are something that, for many, it isn't and it significantly downplays the emotional aspect of it.

We're all here to understand things better, is all.]]>
Polyamoury, monogamishness, non-normativity, Oh My!http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=11148&Focus=357481#Comment_3574812013-08-29T11:48:53-05:002015-08-02T19:40:26-05:00Ben Gwalchmaihttp://freakangels.com/whitechapel/account.php?u=3030
I'm intrigued by this conversation as just last night I was discussing it. Let's hope it goes down in WC history.
@glukkake - do you think people's fear of it is partly due to the growing media ...
@glukkake - do you think people's fear of it is partly due to the growing media coverage? Here in the UK it was reported almost every other week over spring and summer.

I currently stand at an interesting point in life that is challenging me to decide either way. I've never had a problem with the spectrum of relationships and I know myself well enough to know I can be a jealous fucker so I keep a lid on that but, currently, life is mostly about work [and I like it that way] so I question if my fairly traditional [though I like some kink] cis ways should continue in this time or if I should try polyamory and see if it suits. Hmmm...

As I said, this one intrigues me.]]>
Polyamoury, monogamishness, non-normativity, Oh My!http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=11148&Focus=357486#Comment_3574862013-08-29T12:11:29-05:002015-08-02T19:40:26-05:00Internauthttp://freakangels.com/whitechapel/account.php?u=7307
I've found that breaking from monogamy and trying to play it off as just "keeping it casual" or "open" actually stemmed from growing un-realized unhappiness in the relationship I ...
Polyamoury, monogamishness, non-normativity, Oh My!http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=11148&Focus=357489#Comment_3574892013-08-29T12:38:45-05:002015-08-02T19:40:26-05:00Cat Vincenthttp://freakangels.com/whitechapel/account.php?u=447
Thanks all, especially for noting (and politely) how easily assumptions and phrasing matter in this.
Some of you know my form on this subject: was in a long-term, somewhat open triad for over 16 ...
Some of you know my form on this subject: was in a long-term, somewhat open triad for over 16 years, which ended about 2 years ago. I'm now monogamous to the remaining partner.

Here's the thing which doesn't get mentioned often - poly is complicated, purely in terms of logistics.

So: a monogamous pair-bond only has to consider one relationship. Partner A to Partner B.A closed triad, the simplest form of poly: That's immediately four relationships:Partners A and BPartners A and CPartners B and CAnd then the entire ABC gestalt.

This is even before you start sorting out who gets to shag who and when!

(This is one of several reasons why after all those years of polyamory, Darling Wife & I are staying monogamous for the foreseeable future, and would not consider adding a long-term third person at all now. And it's not a matter of having changed our minds at all - just we're a) too damn tired and b) want to devote more time to each other. Mileage will, as ever, vary.)

Also: it's a common assumption from outside poly that it's primarily about the sex. Not always true. Which is another reason terms like "playing the field" don't fit too well.]]>
Polyamoury, monogamishness, non-normativity, Oh My!http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=11148&Focus=357491#Comment_3574912013-08-29T12:53:25-05:002015-08-02T19:40:26-05:00Internauthttp://freakangels.com/whitechapel/account.php?u=7307
I think that is a very valid and often looked over fact due to stereotypes and misconceptions: There are quite a few poly relationships built around very genuine love and affection for one another. ...
Polyamoury, monogamishness, non-normativity, Oh My!http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=11148&Focus=357492#Comment_3574922013-08-29T12:57:35-05:002013-08-29T12:59:46-05:00oldhathttp://freakangels.com/whitechapel/account.php?u=75
Should be noted too that asexual polyamorous relationships are indeed a thing that exists.
Hell, asexuality can probably be thrown in to this discussion as well, since there are MANY ...
Hell, asexuality can probably be thrown in to this discussion as well, since there are MANY misconceptions about that as well...]]>
Polyamoury, monogamishness, non-normativity, Oh My!http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=11148&Focus=357497#Comment_3574972013-08-29T13:50:22-05:002015-08-02T19:40:26-05:00Cat Vincenthttp://freakangels.com/whitechapel/account.php?u=447
@oldhat - Yeah, chuck it all in!
A key point here is how you treat people who conduct their lives differently to you. It's a spectrum between (using phrases that work for me, YMMV etc) Your Kink ...
A key point here is how you treat people who conduct their lives differently to you. It's a spectrum between (using phrases that work for me, YMMV etc) Your Kink Is Not My Kink and That's OK to You're Doing It Wrong. And it really doesn't matter what said "kink" or "it" is. (Usual disclaimer - Rape=Never OK.)

As noted above by Glukkake, being told by someone who plays differently to you that somehow you're the one in the wrong is never helpful. I sort of understand why poly folk, raised in a society that severely privileges monogamy (or at least the appearance of same!) would get a little zealous. Doesn't actually forgive them for telling other presumably happy folk that They're Doing It Wrong.

The thing is... folk are different from each other. And folk have different perspectives along their lifespan. You might find the ides of poly impossible because you see yourself as too jealous... and a few years later, decide you can handle it. Or vice versa.

For me, asexuality is something I've literally only experienced as an adult when severely ill. Sex is such a part of my whole adult existence that being without it feels like I'm not me. But I hope I can at least be polite and try to learn from asexual folk. Their lack of kink is not my kink - and that's OK.]]>
Polyamoury, monogamishness, non-normativity, Oh My!http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=11148&Focus=357501#Comment_3575012013-08-29T14:11:45-05:002015-08-02T19:40:26-05:00Magnulushttp://freakangels.com/whitechapel/account.php?u=6716
Holy nutballs, what an avalanche! Wow, I'm loving all the different experiences, opinions and thoughts so far. :D
My head is swinging with all the info, so I might be responding to things without ...
My head is swinging with all the info, so I might be responding to things without names, apologies for that...

oldhat:"Completely missing the point of things by referring to it as Mags did above." That was referring to my example of being a dick, right? I hope I wasn't inadvertently being a dick about monogamy there, because that would suck. Considering that I spent at times deliriously happy 9 years in my current relationship being mono before opening it in 2011, I know very well that monogamy can work just fine. Almost all of my friends are mono, and they're fine too.

Also: Yes. Asexuality should definitely be part of this. I would love to hear from asexuals, as that's a group that's sadly buried in most conversations on relationships, especially since the conversation is skewed toward "Sex being important" instead of sexual compatibility

costa K: I think we're all a LITTLE bit kinky. I consider myself "vanilla", but what's really vanilla sex? Genital stimulation? Genital and/or oral stimulation? Is anal vanilla? Some light bondage (which most people have at least TRIED once)? Powerplay can be so subtle that it almost doesn't register for a lot of people, but it's still kinky.

lontimelurker: Yeah, I'm gonna agree with the others. "playing the field" sounds in my mind like I'm looking for a replacement, which isn't how this works. I'm fully committed to making this relationship work or to end if it needs ending (which can be harder than keeping it together when it shouldn't be) but I'm ALSO having other relationships, which we also have to make some form of commitment to. It all gets very complicated when I want some attention but my wife's squeeze is having a minor crisis and REALLY needs her attention, but we work those things out.

Glukkake: Definitely agreed on your point about how to frame it. I consider myself an Enthusiast, so I can get really excited when I discuss things I enjoy, which has sometimes lead to me giving some people the idea that I'm Right and They're Wrong. So I try to police the way I speak about stuff like fitness, coffee, gaming and non-monogamy very rigorously, and I make it very clear that not everyone should be poly.

I also have people very quickly point out that THEY couldn't possibly be poly because THEY are either much more committed than me, more jealous than me or more possessive than me. At that stage, I usually want to point out that none of those three are exclusive to monogamous people. Depending on how well I know the person and how the tenor of the conversation is, I sometimes do mention it. Jealousy and commitment go hand in hand with open relationships, really, but not in the way they do in monogamous ones.

Allana: Yeah, squeezes who actively don't want to meet my wife or don't want to meet me are immediately a red flag for us. It's fine that they might still feel like an intruder, but we never (consciously) give them a reason to think so and we're very open and friendly about inviting them to dinner/ coffee/ movie nights when possible. Maybe that's why we still haven't really had that issue, though I've had squeezes admit they feel weird meeting my wife before actually meeting her.

Cat Vincent: Yes! This! Definitely! Open relationships are INCREDIBLY complex. Time management, emotional affinity, conflict resolution, sexual safety and various other things become super, super important things to not just THINK about but to TALK about. On the plus side: It's also incredibly fascinating! We're learning so much about each other and ourselves with every new connection we make.

(Asexual people can be kinksters as well, though)

Okay, some general things:Me and my wife started listening to Dan Savage's podcast in 2010, and he brought us far along the path of thinking outside culturally normative views of what sexuality, romance and relationships can be. Or at least, he brought us on from being fairly non-standard already (she proposed to me, she kept her name, she's the breadwinner, we had had a couple of threesomes and we would regularly discuss sexual attractions to other people with no pressure or jealousy surfacing) to being ready for an open relationship. I moved away in 2011 for a year to work at a holiday resort (That's where I did Lazytown) and we said "Whatever happens happens, but we don't want to know about incidents". It never sat right with either of us, so after a long text conversation (the sort of conversation that's a lot easier to do via SMS than in a phone call or face to face) she suggested we open the relationship.

We kind of just started by going "We can sleep with others and... let's take it from there! If it doesn't work, we'll close the relationship again." That has evolved, through trial and success and error, into us being completely open to having fully fledged relationships outside of our own, though we're still considering this to be the Primary relationship of each of us, if nothing else because we have a house and two cats and 11 years of history together. maybe we'll one day meet that one lady who sweeps the both of us off our feet and we enter into a complete triad. Who knows?! We sure don't, we're just enjoying the ride so far.

A book I would recommend pretty much anyone to read is The Ethical Slut. It's very realistic about the pitfalls and joys of open relationships, and I love the way they discuss previous relationships with absolutely no bitterness or "failure" in their minds. Their chapters on dealing with jealousy and conflict are incredibly enlightening both for monos and polys. We've never been jealous people, but we've become MUCH better at dealing with conflict than we were before. We were very conflict-AVOIDING before, and the book taught us how to acknowledge and deal with conflicts as they arise, whether they be about someone we're seeing on the side or who left the pizza out overnight to be mauled by Cthulhu.]]>
Polyamoury, monogamishness, non-normativity, Oh My!http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=11148&Focus=357503#Comment_3575032013-08-29T14:32:25-05:002015-08-02T19:40:26-05:00Jason A. Questhttp://freakangels.com/whitechapel/account.php?u=5192
A couple more variations from my personal history.
Shortly after the above relationship fell apart, I got into another relationship (I'll call him B), and we made the mistake of not discussing ...
Shortly after the above relationship fell apart, I got into another relationship (I'll call him B), and we made the mistake of not discussing openness. I kind of stupidly assumed it was open (because he was cool and liberal, and therefore must think like me), and B assumed it wasn't. Ironically, since we were living together and I was now getting all the sex I wanted just with him, I didn't pursue any outside, while he was too horny not to ... but thought he had to do it on the DL. So we didn't have The Discussion until after I "caught" him in flagrante delicto. That was followed by a flurry of rumspringen, ménages à trois, and other non-English expressions, until we settled down into monogamy-by-default, which lasted until he was taken from me.

A few years ago, I took in an acquaintance who needed a place to stay (call him Z), and when it became clear we were going to be more than just housemates, I made sure we had The Discussion. I wasn't really looking for a romantic relationship anymore, and Z (less burned out and cynical than me) was, so the sex stayed casual. He met T ... who ended up moving in with us. They're serious about each other, and usually joined at the hips. But T knows that Z and I have a history, and is confident enough about his place as #1, that he accepts a little physical intimacy between us, including occasional sex when he's not around. Between T and me, on the other hand ... no chemistry whatsoever, which is part of why he doesn't find me threatening: the cocky twerp can't imagine Z preferring me over him. :)]]>
Polyamoury, monogamishness, non-normativity, Oh My!http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=11148&Focus=357504#Comment_3575042013-08-29T14:37:21-05:002015-08-02T19:40:26-05:00Cat Vincenthttp://freakangels.com/whitechapel/account.php?u=447
@magnulus:
Great points. Can't argue with Ethical Slut recommendation. And yeah, few things sting more than being told you're poly because you lack commitment!
"Asexual people can be ...
Great points. Can't argue with Ethical Slut recommendation. And yeah, few things sting more than being told you're poly because you lack commitment!

"Asexual people can be kinksters"... and here we have a perfect example of my own blind spots. Didn't even occur to me to cover that (because in my brain, they're pretty much synonymous). Cheers.]]>
Polyamoury, monogamishness, non-normativity, Oh My!http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=11148&Focus=357507#Comment_3575072013-08-29T14:45:08-05:002015-08-02T19:40:26-05:00Jason A. Questhttp://freakangels.com/whitechapel/account.php?u=5192
Regarding being "vanilla". Comedian-musician Lynn Lavner has a song called "Enjoy Yourself", which is all about encouraging people to indulge their kinks. My favorite line from ...
Polyamoury, monogamishness, non-normativity, Oh My!http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=11148&Focus=357509#Comment_3575092013-08-29T14:55:42-05:002015-08-02T19:40:26-05:00dorkmuffinhttp://freakangels.com/whitechapel/account.php?u=6719
@Jason A. Quest, oh my god I'm totally stealing "Vanilla is a flavor too."
Polyamoury, monogamishness, non-normativity, Oh My!http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=11148&Focus=357511#Comment_3575112013-08-29T14:57:20-05:002013-08-29T15:12:51-05:00oldhathttp://freakangels.com/whitechapel/account.php?u=75
@magnulus, woah, hey, didn't mean to sound snipey. I thought you were just being intentionally hyperbolic and so I didn't take offence. I actually thought you covered the stereotypes of the common ...
I have a feeling that apologies and clarifications will be coming up a lot in this thread. And I think it won't be uncommon for people to have their defences instinctively go up right off the bat. It's a touchy subject for a lot of people considering past experiences with proponents of different styles of relationship structures that rubbed us the wrong way. Already with what I've posted I had a few moments afterwards thinking "was that alright?". But then I remembered that Whitechapel isn't like the rest of the internet and we can actually talk about this and be respectful while at the same time not being afraid to state when something offends us.

And on that note, if I'm being an ass, PLEASE tell me. I could be doing it without knowing it and I won't learn if I'm not called on it.

As an aside, someone suggested that I read the Ethical Slut and it really rubbed me the wrong way. I got the impression that the authors were really pushing the "This is the evolved thing to do, why wouldn't you do this?" view, which I didn't appreciate. The best education I got on poly relationships came from either discussions like this or actually seeing friends of mine maintain polyamorous relationships. I'm not suggesting to hide in the bushes and watch them or anything, but seeing the obvious love just threw out all that theory stuff I read and brought it home for me.

I have some work and some much needed rest to get out of the way before I put brainpower in a post, but I will be contributing to this with my personal bits as well.]]>
Polyamoury, monogamishness, non-normativity, Oh My!http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=11148&Focus=357513#Comment_3575132013-08-29T15:08:21-05:002015-08-02T19:40:26-05:00Littlepurplegothhttp://freakangels.com/whitechapel/account.php?u=10699
Oh definitely asexual people, or those in an asexual phase can be kinksters... (yup, personal history, pre/early DP, I'm very ... dominant, without that necessarily being about sex for me. power, ...
I grew up being poly. I (now know) formed friendships and associations very differently from those around me. I just didn't know it had a name, any sort of formal study or structure or whatever Until I got to uni and studied anthropology. even then I didn't actually apply it to myself and, indeed, the way I was living as it was presented to us as a sexual/procreative format only (classic taught by a mono white academic thing, with hindsight). My brain is wired... well 'wrong' is a comment I used to get as a youth, and have had more recently...

I could say that I fell into monogamy with DP, but not on purpose, just following the societally approved curve etc etc. Even then we didn't exactly 'follow' it. I have always had a ridiculously strong sense of self and a determined to the point of fault nature, hence why I managed to bury a lot of who and how I was for the better part of 15 years. DP and I never had 'the discussion' because I never hid who I was in the early years, and I long assumed that he had noticed and had full knowledge (I now know that he was completely impervious to it, my 'flirtatious nature' was one of the things he loved, and he (rightly) assumed I was only actually conventionally sexual with him so... gah! so much that could have been avoided).

For me, this happening was ultimately mentally and in all sorts of ways devastating. Its only in very recent years (I describe it to me as 'since I remembered me' or 'woke up' which was around a whole tonne of shit where our relationship had broken down completely) that I've come back and accepted that I don't response in the 'usual' way. Its really quite hard to express, but at its most base its that if we become friends nothing is ruled out as an ever possibility, even where there is no 'spark', I have my lines in different places... actually I think of it as 'falling in like' and whilst I'm incredibly good at looking just like everyone else, I do tend to have many more people that I would consider aquaintances, I've never found myself able to enter into the sorts of casual friendships that are apparently the 'norm'...

Not expressing myself well here. damn. rambling horribly. argh! further thoughts in a while...]]>
Polyamoury, monogamishness, non-normativity, Oh My!http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=11148&Focus=357516#Comment_3575162013-08-29T15:16:00-05:002015-08-02T19:40:26-05:00Jason A. Questhttp://freakangels.com/whitechapel/account.php?u=5192
The other vanilla-related line I carry around comes from a friend who, when "accused" of being vanilla, countered that she was French vanilla. Which I think is a great term for anyone ...
French vanilla. Which I think is a great term for anyone who's got just a little bit of kink in their recipe.]]>
Polyamoury, monogamishness, non-normativity, Oh My!http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=11148&Focus=357517#Comment_3575172013-08-29T15:17:16-05:002015-08-02T19:40:26-05:00John Skylarhttp://freakangels.com/whitechapel/account.php?u=8976
Oh, polyamory.
It's been a part of my life so much--and in each case, worked so wonderfully for me emotionally--that I have a soft spot in my heart for it.
That said, I was raised religious and ...
It's been a part of my life so much--and in each case, worked so wonderfully for me emotionally--that I have a soft spot in my heart for it.

That said, I was raised religious and my community would absolutely shun me if I went for it as a lifestyle. I gave it up. I miss it, but I must confess that I don't think I'll ever find a partner, much less more than one, who wants a religious household with nonmonogamy as a part of it. I have been in a couple of lovely quads and triads, and I enjoyed them, and I moved on and now I'm with one wonderful woman, and I enjoy that too.

The biggest obstacle, after my desire for a future within my religion, was jealousy. My relationships that were monogamous have actually never sparked so much jealousy as the poly ones, and I have to argue against this notion that poly is for people who don't get jealous. I got jealous, my partner(s) got jealous, and cheating was still a thing that could happen. Poly doesn't simplify those rules. It makes them more complicated. So we talked about it, and nurtured each other, and tried to put out the little fires when they started.]]>
Polyamoury, monogamishness, non-normativity, Oh My!http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=11148&Focus=357518#Comment_3575182013-08-29T15:25:53-05:002013-08-29T15:30:51-05:00Littlepurplegothhttp://freakangels.com/whitechapel/account.php?u=10699
One thing that I do find utterly impossible, is not being able to not broach non-monogamy when you do meet someone. I'm honest to a fault, just can't not discuss that sort of thing, and much prefer ...
Polyamoury, monogamishness, non-normativity, Oh My!http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=11148&Focus=357519#Comment_3575192013-08-29T15:28:10-05:002015-08-02T19:40:26-05:00Cat Vincenthttp://freakangels.com/whitechapel/account.php?u=447
@oldhat: Yeah the Ethical Slut writers are preachy, but I see it as a toolkit not a new religion... nick what works, bin what don't.
@Littlepurplegoth - thanks for joining the discussion. I've ...
@Littlepurplegoth - thanks for joining the discussion. I've been around BDSM scene folk who've played asexually and it's been lovely to behold... a certain purity of intent.

@Jason A - the ex liked "whole-bean vanilla" as a term there - though in practice she was a dominant sadomasochist. Like it was said earlier, graduations of kink vary: is it kinky to use a feather or only if you use a whole chicken, as the joke goes.

John S: may I ask which faith? Always interested in how people of strong faiths which frown (generally) on non-standard sexuality deal on a personal level. (It's another of my blind spots - my beliefs are strongly pro-sex and even pro-kink, so it's a perspective I totally lack.)]]>
Polyamoury, monogamishness, non-normativity, Oh My!http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=11148&Focus=357520#Comment_3575202013-08-29T15:40:17-05:002013-08-29T15:40:36-05:00John Skylarhttp://freakangels.com/whitechapel/account.php?u=8976
@Cat Vincent: Judaism. There's even a mailing list called "Ahava Rabah," which translates...approximately...to "big love" but more accurately to "great love" or ...
And while I stand by how awesome it can be to go date a pagan and not tell your parents, I also like the idea of having a religious home with a couple of little Skylars running around. Call me a sentimentalist.]]>
Polyamoury, monogamishness, non-normativity, Oh My!http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=11148&Focus=357522#Comment_3575222013-08-29T15:46:35-05:002015-08-02T19:40:26-05:00Magnulushttp://freakangels.com/whitechapel/account.php?u=6716
Oldhat: No no, don't worry. I was just checking to make sure I wasn't inadvertently breaking my own rules and being a dick. :) Yeah, I was putting a super-fine point on it with my description of ...
Oldhat: No no, don't worry. I was just checking to make sure I wasn't inadvertently breaking my own rules and being a dick. :) Yeah, I was putting a super-fine point on it with my description of monogamy, though I have met several people who hold that up as the gold standard of mono and for some reason can't understand why their relationships keep failing as a result of breaking those rules.

ANALOGY TIME!!!Rules are like steel. If you make them too hard, they won't just break, they will SHATTER. If you make them too soft, you might as well be cutting tomatoes with your finger. Find a point where rigidity meets flexibility at a balance that works for you, and you'll be making your way through tomatoes, shoe soles (for no reason) and the ends of cutting boards in no time!

Kind of a dreadful analogy, but I tried!

I will definitely put this as an addendum to anything I shall be saying as well: "if I'm being an ass, PLEASE tell me."

I do find it interesting that the Ethical Slut was doing that for you. I've noticed several times that they specifically say that monogamy is another fine choice of life and that whatever works for you works for you, whether it's being mono, screwing around or a constellation of sluts, as long as people are honest about their intentions, needs and desires.

I get the idea that they're saying "Look, anything you want is fine. However, since you're reading this book I'm going to assume that you're at least to some degree interested in open relationships so we're now going to tell you the many joys that can come of polyamory and also the pitfalls." So maybe it isn't such a good book to give to people who are not really interested in BEING poly but just want to see where their poly friends/ family/ acquaintances are coming from.

Come to think of it, I haven't seen any books like that. Perhaps that's a gap in the market: A book on poly for monos who don't have any interest in transitioning. Actually, a series of books on VARIOUS things called "WTF are they THINKING?!" would be great. Like, books that try to explain where people on the opposite end of the spectrum are coming from without trying to convince you to convert. A book for pro-lifers and pro-choicers. A book for anti and pro gun people. Etc.

Jason:Loving French Vanilla. :D]]>
Polyamoury, monogamishness, non-normativity, Oh My!http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=11148&Focus=357525#Comment_3575252013-08-29T16:22:13-05:002015-08-02T19:40:26-05:00chiasluthttp://freakangels.com/whitechapel/account.php?u=936
Wow. What a great start to this thread.
As someone who was in a decade long poly triad that ended about 6 years ago, I'll throw my experience in the mix as well.
Cat did a bang up job of ...
As someone who was in a decade long poly triad that ended about 6 years ago, I'll throw my experience in the mix as well.

Cat did a bang up job of summing up the triad dynamic. It is nearly identical to how I've described it before. I usually add that while it was wonderful and I was deliriously happy while it lasted, we all put in A LOT of effort to make it work. It probably should have ended earlier, but we were all so damned committed to making it work that it carried on a little too long. I feel like I should have some sort of honorary degree in relationships after all of it!

I'm still with one of the people that I was in the triad with and I had a child with the other (right at the very end of our relationship), so while we're not "together" anymore, we're definitely still in each other's lives. We co-parent well, but there's a reason we're not together anymore.

We've had a few more forays into poly-ness of sorts, mostly with close friends, but are mainly monogamous. I imagine we'll stay that way ... until we don't anymore.

Oh yeah! My triad family was on MTV's "Sex in the 90's" show about polyamory. The episode was called "It's a Group Thing" and they followed us around the tiny town we lived in at the time, causing much "scandal." I couldn't find any versions of it online anywhere, but the internet's got everything, right?

I'm also jumping on the "French Vanilla" bandwagon. Genius.]]>
Polyamoury, monogamishness, non-normativity, Oh My!http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=11148&Focus=357526#Comment_3575262013-08-29T16:23:27-05:002013-08-29T16:24:52-05:00Internauthttp://freakangels.com/whitechapel/account.php?u=7307
@Magnulus
Rules are like steel. If you make them too hard, they won't just break, they will SHATTER. If you make them too soft, you might as well be cutting tomatoes with your finger. Find a point ...

Rules are like steel. If you make them too hard, they won't just break, they will SHATTER. If you make them too soft, you might as well be cutting tomatoes with your finger. Find a point where rigidity meets flexibility at a balance that works for you, and you'll be making your way through tomatoes, shoe soles (for no reason) and the ends of cutting boards in no time!

Not that dreadful. Pretty much everyone I've ever talked to on this subject have said the same thing in one form or another. :D]]>
Polyamoury, monogamishness, non-normativity, Oh My!http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=11148&Focus=357527#Comment_3575272013-08-29T16:24:03-05:002013-08-30T01:21:02-05:00Littlepurplegothhttp://freakangels.com/whitechapel/account.php?u=10699
@skylar oh heck.. yup I can see where you are coming from there... (whistles) I'm not but there have been... complicated vague involvements with peeps on the cultural end ... in some ways easier, in ...
In this household, the only rule is that we tell each other before something becomes complicated. which is as much as a loving brake to any tendancy that I have towards falling in like too fast when I do. and... well its currently changing a bit. its a bit less 'to make a space for a no to be said' as a 'heads up' these days. What @Glukake (?) said about 'can't see you tonight am out with someone'

This thread is the first time that The Ethical Slut has been mentioned as a worthwhile read by someone who is not also an arse (urgh, sorry, creepy people have been the only ones to mention it before in my hearing/sight... odd isn't it, how you can picture people on here and think in terms of being in 'sight' where other places its there, but not present?) with a clear agenda...

@jason. french vanilla. Madagascan vanilla. Turkish. Greece. Floridian. Barbadian... vanilla grows in so many places and each has a really distinct taste and texture difference... (and with me, ultimately, everything descends to food or alcohol... gah!)]]>
Polyamoury, monogamishness, non-normativity, Oh My!http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=11148&Focus=357528#Comment_3575282013-08-29T16:27:40-05:002013-08-29T16:28:47-05:00Magnulushttp://freakangels.com/whitechapel/account.php?u=6716
My agenda should be clear, it's to make everyone poly so I can FUCK THE LOT OF 'EM!! Especially since poly people fuck EVERYTHING and EVERYONE so they must then want me. :D (Not gonna lie. I have a ...
Polyamoury, monogamishness, non-normativity, Oh My!http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=11148&Focus=357530#Comment_3575302013-08-29T16:41:50-05:002013-08-29T16:42:10-05:00icelandbobhttp://freakangels.com/whitechapel/account.php?u=5250
Hmm..... some really interesting points/discussions here.
I dunno. I've always thought that while much of what societal norms throws at us can be restrictive and hypocritical, people can get too ...
I dunno. I've always thought that while much of what societal norms throws at us can be restrictive and hypocritical, people can get too worked up on what can sometimes be simple human needs - companionship, sex, etc.

For me I guess I'M a bit like John Skylar in that I was lucky in who I found to be my life partner. In terms of upbringing, we were religious but sex and alternative lifestyles was very much a taboo subject and no one in my family talked about it. Gender/monogamy issues was something that happened to other people. I pretty much had to seek out my own information. also living up in a rural place meant that there were things expected from you in terms of encounters/sexuality. Getting drunk trying to pull someone. You never cheated on your partner, but many did. For me, there was never any real experimentation with my own desires until i left home and went to uni.

Through my teens and '20s I have experienced, or have "fallen" into, a varied number of encounters and situations with all sorts of people (for example I found out I was strongly attracted to trans people across the spectrum). However, possibly in a way that I was brought up, while i eventually started seeing people, i tended to keep a lot of the stuff I did to myself. I would "compartmentalise" it so to speak and no one in my family knows what i've got up to. it wasn't till much later (When I moved to Iceland actually) when speaking/drinking with friends that I was open about some of the stuff I've done/kinks i'm into. I think I kind of weirded them out a bit at one point...

As for relationships themselves, I guess for me the idea of open/undefined relationships seems fine on paper, but i don't think that it's for me. Or rather i don't know if it's for me, whether or not i would be up for it emotionally. The fact is that until recently (in the last 5 years) I've never actually known any couples who have chosen that type of relationship, and all the partners I've been with in the past have always insisted on monogamy.

The thing is that when I met Sigga, a lot of things just clicked into place rather quickly. The idea of committing to this one person for pretty much the rest of my life didn't seem that big of an emotional turmoil. it just felt... right. When i first started seeing her, I was at the time also seeing someone else, a trans woman called Issy who I'd known for a few years. It was an on/off thing for friendship and intimacy. It had been fine for a long time, but then i started to feel... guilt. It was not Issy's fault, but it was the realization that I had met someone who i loved enough not to break her heart and by seeing someone else, even if it was in an open situation, would do that. I broke it off with Issy soon after, and it was good that she understood why.

I've not been with another person since then... and you know what? I'm happy with that. Sigga and I talk about our likes and desires, and I have been fairly open in what I've done in the past (I do admit that I've not told her everything though). But the fact is that we both still want to be with each other, and while there are many different types of people and relationships, this one works for me. Chug on that vanilla baby!!

@Magnus - You did LAZYTOWN?? Jesus....!]]>
Polyamoury, monogamishness, non-normativity, Oh My!http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=11148&Focus=357533#Comment_3575332013-08-29T17:03:57-05:002013-08-30T01:21:23-05:00Littlepurplegothhttp://freakangels.com/whitechapel/account.php?u=10699
I can see the huge attractions of monogamy - I lived it for a long time, but ultimately it was wrong for me. I'm really aware that I had a violent (internally) response to the 'idea' of DP stepping ...
Its just so utterly different to have the freedom that comes with expressing myself. I suppose its what drove me to out myself elsewhere, to support friends who were dealing with iffy circumstances, it just really damn hurt for who or how I am to be reduced (yup reduced, dismissed etc) as 'shag buddy' behaviour. and from someone that I am very much on the same page as parenting and politically wise. Utter lack of any sort of ability or knowledge on their part to be able to see that its not about the bloody sex. Which is fine and lovely when that happens, but I can count the intimate friends that I have (had - lets go back in time to teens) in small figures , but the number of them I've indulged in PIV with on less than one hand. But I choose the phrase intimate friends extremely carefully, as its things like physical contact in a context of care, or sharing a bed with (to sleep) and not avoiding each others presence, but not moving it past. ;snugling; (oh how terribly infra dig of me!). or .. anyone of a number of tiny variables and shifts. and all that.

Yes Magnus. Long may your agenda live. SO flipping sex obsessed is 'society' that they really cannot see that maybe... argh now *this* is why I have problems with using 'poly' in a 'straight society' context !!!!]]>
Polyamoury, monogamishness, non-normativity, Oh My!http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=11148&Focus=357536#Comment_3575362013-08-29T17:24:11-05:002015-08-02T19:40:26-05:00256http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/account.php?u=4827
What a lovely thread.
Polyamoury, monogamishness, non-normativity, Oh My!http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=11148&Focus=357538#Comment_3575382013-08-29T17:36:28-05:002015-08-02T19:40:26-05:00Magnulushttp://freakangels.com/whitechapel/account.php?u=6716
icelandbob:
"The thing is that when I met Sigga, a lot of things just clicked into place rather quickly. The idea of committing to this one person for pretty much the rest of my life didn't ...
icelandbob:"The thing is that when I met Sigga, a lot of things just clicked into place rather quickly. The idea of committing to this one person for pretty much the rest of my life didn't seem that big of an emotional turmoil. it just felt... right."

It's like you just described my relationship to my wife. :)

And yeah, I did a stage version of Lazytown. Stefan Karl is a fuckin' legend, and I got to pretend to "be him" on stage twice a week for a year. I was pretty satisfied, if sweaty. :D

Littlepurplegoth:I swear, sometimes your posts have so many abbreviations I've never heard of before it's like I swallowed the decoder ring I was supposed to get in my cereal. People say the same thing about about my references and allegories, though, so I guess I can't complain. :)

It's really shitty how one subject wherein two people disagree vehemently enough can turn them from seeing each other as human beings to seeing nothing but everything they loathe about the kinds of people they perceive to have that dissenting opinion. "You're cool, and we like the same music and the same movies. We agree on tons of social issues and both have the same tactic for surviving a zombie apocalypse... What's that? You're pro-gun? WE ARE DONE TALKING! YOU RIGHT-WING NUTJOBS ARE ALL THE SAME!!"]]>
Polyamoury, monogamishness, non-normativity, Oh My!http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=11148&Focus=357541#Comment_3575412013-08-29T18:05:36-05:002013-08-29T18:05:54-05:00Jason A. Questhttp://freakangels.com/whitechapel/account.php?u=5192
My agenda should be clear, it's to make everyone poly so I can FUCK THE LOT OF 'EM!! Fair enough. It's why I'm trying to get all the hetboys and dykes to go bi. I'm willing to do them one at at ...
My agenda should be clear, it's to make everyone poly so I can FUCK THE LOT OF 'EM!! Fair enough. It's why I'm trying to get all the hetboys and dykes to go bi. I'm willing to do them one at at time, though. ;)]]>
Polyamoury, monogamishness, non-normativity, Oh My!http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=11148&Focus=357545#Comment_3575452013-08-29T21:35:03-05:002015-08-02T19:40:26-05:00allanahttp://freakangels.com/whitechapel/account.php?u=4019
oh man Magnus, can you just read this thread out loud in voices for your next Telling Of Tales?
Polyamoury, monogamishness, non-normativity, Oh My!http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=11148&Focus=357550#Comment_3575502013-08-30T00:42:37-05:002015-08-02T19:40:26-05:00icelandbobhttp://freakangels.com/whitechapel/account.php?u=5250
*names will be redacted to protect the innocent* LOL
Polyamoury, monogamishness, non-normativity, Oh My!http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=11148&Focus=357552#Comment_3575522013-08-30T01:27:08-05:002013-08-30T01:29:16-05:00Littlepurplegothhttp://freakangels.com/whitechapel/account.php?u=10699
argh... my name is littlepurplegoth and I have a tla problem...
oh sorry... three letter acronym... too many years of usenet before the lovely world wide web and its pictures and then broadband ...
oh sorry... three letter acronym... too many years of usenet before the lovely world wide web and its pictures and then broadband came along. Add in a dose of alternative and geeky culture and I don't stand a chance. sign. when it comes to adding in a whole sex-positive thing as well, there are lots and lots of new abbreviations and new words and different meanings for everyday words and when you are a language nut you can very easily get buried down deep and forget to come up for air.

long may any and all allegories continue... this thread could easily get there, its a whole new language all in itself!]]>
Polyamoury, monogamishness, non-normativity, Oh My!http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=11148&Focus=357553#Comment_3575532013-08-30T03:00:26-05:002015-08-02T19:40:26-05:00Flabyohttp://freakangels.com/whitechapel/account.php?u=1306
I'm not sure if I'd properly count as asexual, but it's absolutely the case that I haven't had sex for... hang on let me work it out... 11 years? Something like that.
Had a couple of relationships ...
Had a couple of relationships in my mid twenties that went incredibly sour fast, and after that something just sort of clicked in my brain, leaving me not really interested in a relationship with anyone that's stronger than 'friendship'. Maybe I'm damaged, but I don't feel like I am. Sex was never a big part of my life even when I was in a relationship, so the fact I'm probably not going to 'get any' ever again doesn't seem to bother me. I suspect my parents are disappointed that I'm not going to marry off and produce grandkids, but they've never vocalised that in conversation.

That's not to say I have no sex drive at all, it's just that what little I have I'm capable of taking care of by myself, heh.]]>
Polyamoury, monogamishness, non-normativity, Oh My!http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=11148&Focus=357559#Comment_3575592013-08-30T05:58:52-05:002015-08-02T19:40:26-05:00John Skylarhttp://freakangels.com/whitechapel/account.php?u=8976
Honestly Flaybo, and I say this as a person who's been told he "likes women to a fault," I think you shouldn't feel the slightest regret for being who you are.
One of the things that I ...
One of the things that I think makes humans so exceptional is that we are apparently the only species wherein "consent" is even a concept. Mating isn't a chemical lightswitch for us, and when we want to do something awesome like go to the moon we're capable of saying "no sex, too busy." And I think that's awesome.]]>
Polyamoury, monogamishness, non-normativity, Oh My!http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=11148&Focus=357569#Comment_3575692013-08-30T11:35:36-05:002015-08-02T19:40:26-05:00Cat Vincenthttp://freakangels.com/whitechapel/account.php?u=447
@John Skylar: Co-signed. Especially about consent as a concept.
And ta for talking about your faith perspective earlier. (Blimey, we're managing to talk about sex and religion like grown-ups all ...
And ta for talking about your faith perspective earlier. (Blimey, we're managing to talk about sex and religion like grown-ups all at one here! Better not add politics...)]]>
Polyamoury, monogamishness, non-normativity, Oh My!http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=11148&Focus=357574#Comment_3575742013-08-30T12:33:35-05:002015-08-02T19:40:26-05:00Doc Ocassihttp://freakangels.com/whitechapel/account.php?u=410
Just spent the best part of an hour crafting a post then the forum takes me to the main page when I preview, fucking fuck.
Anyway may try for a longer post later.
@Flaybo
I am in the same ...
Anyway may try for a longer post later.

@Flaybo I am in the same boat as you, not has sex in about the same amount of time, though there may be a fuzzyness on how to define sex. I wouldn't say asexual because I am hetero. I just have no drive to have that kind of relationship.]]>
Polyamoury, monogamishness, non-normativity, Oh My!http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=11148&Focus=357582#Comment_3575822013-08-30T14:48:23-05:002015-08-02T19:40:26-05:00chiasluthttp://freakangels.com/whitechapel/account.php?u=936
Flabyo and Doc
Thank you for contributing to the asexual part of the conversation. It's really intriguing to hear that point of view. I like to think of myself as being very empathetic and able to ...
Thank you for contributing to the asexual part of the conversation. It's really intriguing to hear that point of view. I like to think of myself as being very empathetic and able to see most points of view fairly easily, but this is one that's really difficult for me to understand. I appreciate you sharing.]]>
Polyamoury, monogamishness, non-normativity, Oh My!http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=11148&Focus=357583#Comment_3575832013-08-30T16:05:31-05:002015-08-02T19:40:26-05:00Oddculthttp://freakangels.com/whitechapel/account.php?u=214
My main problem with polyamory is all the damn drama. Whenever I've had friend that have practiced it and had multiple partners on the go, there's always someone that's unhappy. Which often leads to ...
I have a sneaking suspicion that it's this sort of attention that some people who are attracted to polyamory crave as much as any sort of sexual freedom.

I just couldn't be doing with all that.

My attitude is that I'm not going to insist on monogamy, but I don't want to know what else goes on, and it must never affect my life in any way. If a partner wanted to see anyone else on a regular basis, as I'm not entirely stupid, I'd expect them to break up with me, and even then I probably wouldn't want to know why and wouldn't ask.

Be safe, don't bring drama home ever, don't wanna know, if it gets serious, make a damn choice. I'd hope for and expect about the same, but when I've been in relationships that were going well, I just couldn't be bothered looking outside them.

So, yeah, that probably comes under 'Monogamish', but I've really little time for people that label themselves 'poly-' and actively avoid them as ain't got time for the drama that it always seems to come with.]]>
Polyamoury, monogamishness, non-normativity, Oh My!http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=11148&Focus=357584#Comment_3575842013-08-30T16:16:54-05:002013-08-30T16:20:06-05:00glukkakehttp://freakangels.com/whitechapel/account.php?u=1693
I would not say that I'm attracted to drama, nor that my monogamous relationships were completely clear of drama.
Relationships & people who don't communicate cause "drama".
Edit: ...
Relationships & people who don't communicate cause "drama".

Edit: And kindly remember that these grand sweeping statements you're making about "some people" is including the many of us in this thread who are identifying with this lifestyle. So, you're being insulting right now.]]>
Polyamoury, monogamishness, non-normativity, Oh My!http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=11148&Focus=357585#Comment_3575852013-08-30T16:36:10-05:002015-08-02T19:40:26-05:00Oddculthttp://freakangels.com/whitechapel/account.php?u=214
It's the very insistence on communication that I feel causes much of the drama.
I, of course, am only going on personal observation, and its generally the case that if you have a relationship with ...
I, of course, am only going on personal observation, and its generally the case that if you have a relationship with someone you're either going to break up or watch one or the other die, so there's 'drama' potential in any relationship, but some of the worst cases of heartbreak I've ever seen were when someone was in love with someone who held it as their right to have sex with othe people and then insisted on 'communicating' all about it.

I've a real problem with polyamory being seen as a 'lifestyle' for mainly this reason, because it seems to come with a set of rules and assumptions and a lot of shaming of people who're 'selfish' for having feelings for someone else.

I apologise for speaking in general terms, but I won't apologise if any take insult at my opinions. Perhaps I could have phrased it as 'in my personal experience, several of the people I've known who claimed to be practicing enlightened polyamory have seriously hurt others in avoidable ways, and then blamed them for being hurt as if its their failing.'

Monogamy isn't for everyone, sure, that's okay. But non-monogamy feels a bit like its been politicised and has become a club with rules - especially the insistence on communication - when maybe mutually respectful discretion is a better strategy.]]>
Polyamoury, monogamishness, non-normativity, Oh My!http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=11148&Focus=357586#Comment_3575862013-08-30T16:36:14-05:002013-08-30T17:13:41-05:00oldhathttp://freakangels.com/whitechapel/account.php?u=75
Relationships & people who don't communicate cause "drama".
That took me a stupid amount of time to figure out for myself in my relationships both romantic and platonic.
@Oddcult, ...
Relationships & people who don't communicate cause "drama".

That took me a stupid amount of time to figure out for myself in my relationships both romantic and platonic.

@Oddcult, I've always looked at it as the communication included aspects such as personal limits and being honest with what's okay to talk about and what's not. It's less drama and more accomadating for all people involved. If one person is hurting another in a relationship then there is a lack of communication and concern for the person's feelings.

In your experience you saw this not work out. That doesn't mean that ALL are like that. And believe me, I say this as someone who had to work through my own issues with someone who didn't respect my boundaries.

If you don't have a problem with being insulting via generalization, consider this a warning.]]>
Polyamoury, monogamishness, non-normativity, Oh My!http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=11148&Focus=357587#Comment_3575872013-08-30T16:58:05-05:002015-08-02T19:40:26-05:00Oddculthttp://freakangels.com/whitechapel/account.php?u=214
A 'warning'?!
Whoa. Come on, I'm not directly being abusive here. I have an opinion that is based on personal observation. I'm not stereotyping or offering direct insult.
Holding an opinion ...
Whoa. Come on, I'm not directly being abusive here. I have an opinion that is based on personal observation. I'm not stereotyping or offering direct insult.

Holding an opinion that others may disagree with, and take insult at, is quite different to 'insulting' them.

So please don't twist my words or put words in my mouth. As I'd feel that this was quite insulting in turn.

If anyone disagrees with what I've said, it would be more useful to counter it with examples of experiences and a dissection of what I've said and how any why it may be an inappropriate assessment, if it is. Just saying that an opinion I hold is 'insulting' does not progress the discussion, and conversely, shuts it down.

If this is all about diversity and respecting opinions and communicating, why not partake in that, instead of just taking offence?]]>
Polyamoury, monogamishness, non-normativity, Oh My!http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=11148&Focus=357588#Comment_3575882013-08-30T17:04:11-05:002015-08-02T19:40:26-05:00glukkakehttp://freakangels.com/whitechapel/account.php?u=1693
What I mean is that the dissolution of many of my relationships, monogamous or not, were due to an inability to communicate with each other. We hid things from each other, we hid ourselves from each ...
But, if someone is in love with me, and they don't want to know what I get up to on the nights that I don't see them, it means they aren't right for me. I don't think it's right to torture someone who doesn't want to hear it, but again, if me being me is that upsetting, then it's a sign that the relationship isn't going to work. I don't think that doing it behind someone's back is in any way right and I'd rather be single than hurt someone else and myself by going through that kind of relationship, because I think it's unhealthy.

Again, that's just for me and those are *my* boundaries. Not all poly people are like that. Hell, not all monogamous people are like that. But that's why I'm not sleeping with them if they don't agree with me. Because I'm not obligated to change myself just because someone went and did something silly like fall for me.]]>
Polyamoury, monogamishness, non-normativity, Oh My!http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=11148&Focus=357589#Comment_3575892013-08-30T17:06:38-05:002013-08-30T17:07:25-05:00glukkakehttp://freakangels.com/whitechapel/account.php?u=1693
@Oddcult
I have a sneaking suspicion that it's this sort of attention that some people who are attracted to polyamory crave as much as any sort of sexual freedom.
I say that calling people in ...

I have a sneaking suspicion that it's this sort of attention that some people who are attracted to polyamory crave as much as any sort of sexual freedom.

I say that calling people in my lifestyle as attention seekers/people who crave drama to be insulting. It's demeaning to reduce me like that. And then you say that *I* have to prove to you that I'm not because this is just your opinion, not a stereotype? C'mon man...]]>
Polyamoury, monogamishness, non-normativity, Oh My!http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=11148&Focus=357590#Comment_3575902013-08-30T17:11:44-05:002013-08-30T17:12:22-05:00oldhathttp://freakangels.com/whitechapel/account.php?u=75
I'm just not for firmly defending beliefs on something that you don't personally relate to, you know? In my experience, all relationships have their drama and the drama is usually directly related to ...
Yes, it doesn't work out. But that's a problem with the individual, which happens accross the board.

Get what I mean?]]>
Polyamoury, monogamishness, non-normativity, Oh My!http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=11148&Focus=357591#Comment_3575912013-08-30T17:21:26-05:002015-08-02T19:40:26-05:00Oddculthttp://freakangels.com/whitechapel/account.php?u=214
"But, if someone is in love with me, and they don't want to know what I get up to on the nights that I don't see them, it means they aren't right for me. "
This is what I'm having real ...
This is what I'm having real trouble understanding or empathising with here.

Why would you want that, in the first place, and what sort of person wants to hear it anyway? It seems to be some sort of test and I can't see how it wouldn't cause someone else anxiety for various reasons.

" I'm not obligated to change myself just because someone went and did something silly like fall for me."

Obliged, no, of course not, but it seems to be insisting on a rule that benefits you, that places restrictions on someone else in a way that ignores the fluidity of human interactions and relationships.

I have real trouble seeing how it would hurt you - the generic you, that is - to not see multiple people and talk about it all. Having to maintain *secrecy* sure, but that's different to discretion and not having to talk about it all.

If that's what you want to do and can find people to go along with it, fair enough, but it seems alien that the need to do it is also aligned with a requirement to discuss it.

This is perhaps the source of my belief in poly relationships going hand in hand with unnecessary drama.]]>
Polyamoury, monogamishness, non-normativity, Oh My!http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=11148&Focus=357592#Comment_3575922013-08-30T17:27:48-05:002015-08-02T19:40:26-05:00Oddculthttp://freakangels.com/whitechapel/account.php?u=214
"I say that calling people in my lifestyle as attention seekers/people who crave drama to be insulting. It's demeaning to reduce me like that. And then you say that *I* have to prove to you that ...
Saying 'sneaking suspicion' is hardly making an outright assertion. Like I said, its based in observation of things that in no way could be called data.

But sure, you don't have to prove anything or say or do anything. I'm just saying that I'm open to having my mind changed and being convinced that the situations I observed were anomalies. Hell, I'd really like to think they were.]]>
Polyamoury, monogamishness, non-normativity, Oh My!http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=11148&Focus=357593#Comment_3575932013-08-30T17:29:46-05:002015-08-02T19:40:26-05:00oldhathttp://freakangels.com/whitechapel/account.php?u=75
Obliged, no, of course not, but it seems to be insisting on a rule that benefits you, that places restrictions on someone else in a way that ignores the fluidity of human interactions and ...
Obliged, no, of course not, but it seems to be insisting on a rule that benefits you, that places restrictions on someone else in a way that ignores the fluidity of human interactions and relationships.

From my monogamous point of view, damn skippy. If a person can't understand, respect and appreciate the ground rules then, for me, the deal is off.]]>
Polyamoury, monogamishness, non-normativity, Oh My!http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=11148&Focus=357594#Comment_3575942013-08-30T17:32:43-05:002015-08-02T19:40:26-05:00Birds_Use_Starshttp://freakangels.com/whitechapel/account.php?u=6144
Many relationships end poorly and dramatically. Though I am thoroughly ignorant of polyamory, I'd guess (once again, ignorantly) that the simple fact that you are involving more people would increase ...
Polyamoury, monogamishness, non-normativity, Oh My!http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=11148&Focus=357596#Comment_3575962013-08-30T17:42:23-05:002013-08-30T17:53:46-05:00allanahttp://freakangels.com/whitechapel/account.php?u=4019
Ooh, put me in, coach! I got this one!
You know when you read a good book and want to talk about it with someone?
Or see a good movie or have a good idea or meet a nice person or eat a good ...
You know when you read a good book and want to talk about it with someone?Or see a good movie or have a good idea or meet a nice person or eat a good meal?And you want to tell the people that you like that you had a nice experience because you're excited about this thing in your life that maybe you'll do again sometime?

If you're dating slash fucking slash whatevering a person and aren't having the kind of fun (or confusion, sometimes, or head-tilting intrigue, or etc.) that warrants talking about it to your dedicated partner, to me, that's kinda doin' it wrong. I allow that don't-ask-don't-tell works for many people and maybe that has nothing to do with jealousy. But for me I like hearing that my partner is happy. I like knowing what's on his mind. Even if it's the delicious curves of a woman who is not me.

ETA: Being able to listen to that sort of thing gets me a lot me compliments. Because I'm great and loving and accepting and open and I help my boyfriend by offering advice, instead of obsessing about where I fit in. The net result of kicking jealousy into a hole in the ground is a much more amazing relationship and an all-round lifting of spirits. It turns out I have no reason to be jealous of anyone, because I'm fucking awesome.]]>
Polyamoury, monogamishness, non-normativity, Oh My!http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=11148&Focus=357597#Comment_3575972013-08-30T17:47:33-05:002015-08-02T19:40:26-05:00allanahttp://freakangels.com/whitechapel/account.php?u=4019
@BirdsUseStars, true. It's not for the faint of heart. Like many supremely worthwhile things. Coincidentally or not.
If you're the type of person who sees other people screw up and doesn't think ...
If you're the type of person who sees other people screw up and doesn't think 'Well, I'll be sure to try it differently,' this thread probably isn't where you belong. Shutting out an entire mode of relating to people based on the anecdotal evidence of failure ... well, shouldn't you just be single for the rest of your life? Relationship failure is everywhere.]]>
Polyamoury, monogamishness, non-normativity, Oh My!http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=11148&Focus=357598#Comment_3575982013-08-30T17:49:19-05:002015-08-02T19:40:26-05:00Oddculthttp://freakangels.com/whitechapel/account.php?u=214
From my monogamous point of view, damn skippy. If a person can't understand, respect and appreciate the ground rules then, for me, the deal is off.
Okay, and this is where I come round slightly to ...
From my monogamous point of view, damn skippy. If a person can't understand, respect and appreciate the ground rules then, for me, the deal is off.

Okay, and this is where I come round slightly to the other side, but maybe *some* negotiation, perhaps based on circumstances, can work out, if all reasonable precautions against pregnancy and STIs are taken. But, well, it's also a reasonable argument that monogamy is the best way of dealing with those possibilities.]]>
Polyamoury, monogamishness, non-normativity, Oh My!http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=11148&Focus=357599#Comment_3575992013-08-30T17:53:52-05:002015-08-02T19:40:26-05:00Littlepurplegothhttp://freakangels.com/whitechapel/account.php?u=10699
Gosh.
Its got to always be about the communication. Every single relationship in life, regardless as to whether it ends up in a sexual situation or not, is about communication. If there isn't any, ...
Its got to always be about the communication. Every single relationship in life, regardless as to whether it ends up in a sexual situation or not, is about communication. If there isn't any, then its pretty much doomed. It could carry on for a long long time in that state, but its doomed.

To my mind, not being willing to communicate on pretty fundamental aspects of what is between you, is a pretty clear demonstation that there is little respect or regard there. I'm been in that situation, where you love someone to bits, fancy them ridiculously, but the lack of regard ultimatlely killed stuff, stone dead.

There is a general 'lack of care' in my ... (I hestitate to use the term, but its the best I have) primary partnership, but its not a lack of regard. Its a lack of thought, yup, and I'll take part of the blame for that, for forgetting that DP needs a ridiculous level of instruction at times, just to mean that I don't die... you know what, we still communicate about that, ok its not 'great', but its not drama.

In this household, and in my friendships generally... me being who and what I am, indeed DP likewise, means that there isn't drama. There is no need for it, ever. It doesn't happen, really, it just doesn't. It was pretty much damn constant over *everything* when we were living monogamously, life was split out and compartmentalised, it made us lazy and communication and discussion fell by the wayside; as is often the encouraged 'norm' if you listen to the societally sanctioned ways of behaving.]]>
Polyamoury, monogamishness, non-normativity, Oh My!http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=11148&Focus=357600#Comment_3576002013-08-30T17:58:44-05:002015-08-02T19:40:26-05:00Oddculthttp://freakangels.com/whitechapel/account.php?u=214
You know when you read a good book and want to talk about it with someone?
Or see a good movie or have a good idea or meet a nice person or eat a good meal?
And you want to tell the people that you ...
You know when you read a good book and want to talk about it with someone?Or see a good movie or have a good idea or meet a nice person or eat a good meal?And you want to tell the people that you like that you had a nice experience because you're excited about this thing in your life that maybe you'll do again

Well, no

Discussing a piece of art objectively is one thing. Talking about the subjective experience of a personal interaction isn't like that at all. I don't really want to hear about anyone else's, or talk about my own with anyone that wasn't involved.

Telling a story about it, sure, maybe, but if you're saying you utterly, utterly have to tell someone that has feelings for you, just how great the head you got the other night from someone else was, then, well, no. I've got no empathy with that in the slightest and have a fairly visceral reaction against it.]]>
Polyamoury, monogamishness, non-normativity, Oh My!http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=11148&Focus=357602#Comment_3576022013-08-30T18:01:12-05:002015-08-02T19:40:26-05:00Birds_Use_Starshttp://freakangels.com/whitechapel/account.php?u=6144
@BirdsUseStars, true. It's not for the faint of heart. Like many supremely worthwhile things. Coincidentally or not.
If you're the type of person who sees other people screw up and doesn't think ...
@BirdsUseStars, true. It's not for the faint of heart. Like many supremely worthwhile things. Coincidentally or not.

If you're the type of person who sees other people screw up and doesn't think 'Well, I'll be sure to try it differently,' this thread probably isn't where you belong. Shutting out an entire mode of relating to people based on the anecdotal evidence of failure ... well, shouldn't you just be single for the rest of your life? Relationship failure is everywhere.

Yeah, definitely. Like, relationships end with drama constantly, so if you seem more drama in poly relationships, it's not because poly people love drama, it's just because that happens sometimes, and when you have more people you're going to be more likely to see more conflicts.]]>
Polyamoury, monogamishness, non-normativity, Oh My!http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=11148&Focus=357603#Comment_3576032013-08-30T18:05:16-05:002015-08-02T19:40:26-05:00allanahttp://freakangels.com/whitechapel/account.php?u=4019
haha, you think you can talk about art 'objectively'
Polyamoury, monogamishness, non-normativity, Oh My!http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=11148&Focus=357604#Comment_3576042013-08-30T18:08:28-05:002015-08-02T19:40:26-05:00allanahttp://freakangels.com/whitechapel/account.php?u=4019
Okay but the point was to illustrate that your visceral reaction and mine are not the same. The empathy is a thing you should probably work on. You asked 'what kind of person does that' and I told ...
Polyamoury, monogamishness, non-normativity, Oh My!http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=11148&Focus=357605#Comment_3576052013-08-30T18:10:08-05:002015-08-02T19:40:26-05:00Oddculthttp://freakangels.com/whitechapel/account.php?u=214
Yeah, we're not gonna find common ground here.
Polyamoury, monogamishness, non-normativity, Oh My!http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=11148&Focus=357607#Comment_3576072013-08-30T18:10:21-05:002015-08-02T19:40:26-05:00Littlepurplegothhttp://freakangels.com/whitechapel/account.php?u=10699
I wonder if in part it is the 'ability' to feel/experience compersion? I dont' limit that to being something purely present in polyamory, but I wonder that if you are not someone who 'gets' that, ...
Polyamoury, monogamishness, non-normativity, Oh My!http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=11148&Focus=357608#Comment_3576082013-08-30T18:16:47-05:002015-08-02T19:40:26-05:00Argoshttp://freakangels.com/whitechapel/account.php?u=7792
Discussing a piece of art objectively is one thing. Talking about the subjective experience of a personal interaction isn't like that at all.
I'm just gonna pop in here and say that when I talk ...
Discussing a piece of art objectively is one thing. Talking about the subjective experience of a personal interaction isn't like that at all.

I'm just gonna pop in here and say that when I talk about books or movies or whatever I enjoyed, I'm usually talking about my subjective enjoyment of them. Sure, art can be talked about in objective terms, but usually when I'm telling Edgar about a good comic I just read, it's subjective, because hey, sometimes he doesn't like the art I like, and vice versa.

That said, Edgar and I have both done poly in the past and are mono with each other. Mostly just because yes, sometimes there is more drama with poly relationships because it's only natural that as the number of people increases, so does the drama, but I'll be damned if I haven't seen some dramatic as fuck mono couplings. Also we're both the type of people who just really enjoy dedicating our time and efforts to as few people as possible, so while we're open to going poly in the future, it''s never come up yet because we quite frankly just don't feel like allocating our resources to multiple people - that shit can be exhausting. I personally am the type of person who really only needs a couple people in my life. More is nice, always, but as far as really close friends I spend time with on a regular basis, there's only a few of those. I feel fulfilled with one person.

Also, and I hate to admit this, but I've found I'm the type of person who does really well doing poly when I'm mostly just casually dating and not super in love with someone. I'm fine dating people with primaries, married people, what have you, but once I find someone I want to be my primary, I get all weird about it. I don't know if it just boils down to jealousy, or if it goes with the above, and it's that once I get attached on that level my resources just kind of naturally funnel all into one direction, and it feels sucky to now have them all be funneled back. Whatever it is, it's there, so I will admit that my poly experience is limited to casual relationships.]]>
Polyamoury, monogamishness, non-normativity, Oh My!http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=11148&Focus=357609#Comment_3576092013-08-30T18:17:07-05:002015-08-02T19:40:26-05:00allanahttp://freakangels.com/whitechapel/account.php?u=4019
Isn't compersion essentially the same sort of feeling of selflessness that gets employed in romantic stories all the time: 'I wish I could be with you but I love you so much I just want you to be ...
Polyamoury, monogamishness, non-normativity, Oh My!http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=11148&Focus=357610#Comment_3576102013-08-30T18:17:22-05:002015-08-02T19:40:26-05:00oldhathttp://freakangels.com/whitechapel/account.php?u=75
Even then, Oddcult, no one is trying to prove anything or convert to you. It's not our job to do that.
You wonder who could do this and find happiness? They're writing in this thread and they are ...
You wonder who could do this and find happiness? They're writing in this thread and they are incredibly happy. If you want further understanding, I suggest keeping an eye on the thread and just read people's accounts. If you still need understanding, take out a book at the library or look online (someone mind posting suggested resources? That would be great for all, I think).]]>
Polyamoury, monogamishness, non-normativity, Oh My!http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=11148&Focus=357611#Comment_3576112013-08-30T18:20:01-05:002015-08-02T19:40:26-05:00oldhathttp://freakangels.com/whitechapel/account.php?u=75
Tl;dr: the world don't move to the beat of just one drum, what might be right for you, might not be right for some.
Polyamoury, monogamishness, non-normativity, Oh My!http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=11148&Focus=357612#Comment_3576122013-08-30T18:23:47-05:002015-08-02T19:40:26-05:00Oddculthttp://freakangels.com/whitechapel/account.php?u=214
Or maybe a better response would be 'why would I want or need to empathise with that?'
I mean, I can't stand hearing about what a great time people had when they were on holiday, unless there was ...
I mean, I can't stand hearing about what a great time people had when they were on holiday, unless there was an actually interesting story in there too. Why would I want to hear about anyone's sex stuff, just based on how they felt about it, if I had feelings for them, unless there was an actually interesting story involved?

Woo! France was wonderful!

Really? Did anything go horribly wrong? Was it notable for any reason other than whats to be expected? No? Don't care then. Leave me alone.

You had some sex? That made you feel great? It was awesome. Anything weird about it or genuinely funny? No? But it was physically pleasurable and you held each other afterwards and it was sweet too? Woopy do. Wait. No. Woopy don't wanna know.]]>
Polyamoury, monogamishness, non-normativity, Oh My!http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=11148&Focus=357613#Comment_3576132013-08-30T18:29:19-05:002013-08-30T18:35:04-05:00oldhathttp://freakangels.com/whitechapel/account.php?u=75
Then maybe...don't bother clicking on the link to the damn thread and bother reading?
No one is forcing you to take part in this and if someone your involved with wants to be open and wants to ...
No one is forcing you to take part in this and if someone your involved with wants to be open and wants to discuss it and you don't then, follow me here, it's a poor fit. Period.

Strike 2.

Am getting a headache with this thread now. I was worried about that, too.]]>
Polyamoury, monogamishness, non-normativity, Oh My!http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=11148&Focus=357614#Comment_3576142013-08-30T18:29:26-05:002015-08-02T19:40:26-05:00Littlepurplegothhttp://freakangels.com/whitechapel/account.php?u=10699
Yes, #allana I think so. maybe more 'unconditional like' as a base point. I'm not sure if it comes from selflessness, from my point of view it feels pretty damn, um, self serving... 'heck I have good ...
Polyamoury, monogamishness, non-normativity, Oh My!http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=11148&Focus=357616#Comment_3576162013-08-30T18:33:47-05:002015-08-02T19:40:26-05:00Oddculthttp://freakangels.com/whitechapel/account.php?u=214
You wonder who could do this and find happiness?
You're possibly misunderstanding me.
I'm wondering how everyone involved manages to find and keep happiness. I'm also not arguing for ...
You wonder who could do this and find happiness?

You're possibly misunderstanding me.

I'm wondering how everyone involved manages to find and keep happiness. I'm also not arguing for monogamy, I'm saying that the insistence on 'communication' is not the great thing it's presented as, and that insistence on removing people's privacy is problematic.

Okay - what if you're seeing someone and do have an agreement to be open and talk about everything, but the person they're seeing too doesn't want you to hear every detail? Should you tell them they can't see that person if they won't give you a blow by blow account? Whose 'rights' and boundaries should be respected there?]]>
Polyamoury, monogamishness, non-normativity, Oh My!http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=11148&Focus=357617#Comment_3576172013-08-30T18:37:25-05:002015-08-02T19:40:26-05:00allanahttp://freakangels.com/whitechapel/account.php?u=4019
Right? the 'heck I have good taste' thing is so crazy. I love it when people want to date my boyfriend. Compliments for everyone!
Polyamoury, monogamishness, non-normativity, Oh My!http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=11148&Focus=357619#Comment_3576192013-08-30T18:38:35-05:002015-08-02T19:40:26-05:00glukkakehttp://freakangels.com/whitechapel/account.php?u=1693
@Oddcult But me, as a person who is actively living in this lifestyle, is saying that I'm doing that because it's what works for me. That's all. I'm not trying to change your mind about anything ...
If you want anecdotal data, why, I already discussed this earlier up in the thread on why I do this with my current partner:

he's more comfortable if I just tell him I can't see him that evening because I'm seeing someone else - one time I was very intentionally vague and he was anxious all night that I was mad at him/hated him for some reason I wouldn't tell him.

And I have plenty of other reasons that are intimate to my partners and myself, so they're not really open to discussion on a public forum. Besides which, it is again, anecdotal data from a few people. If it's not enough that you, as someone who has admitted that you're making judgements from the outside, don't want to believe me, someone with the experience to say that your judgements are wrong, then I don't know what you need to change your mind?

Don't answer that, because I'm not going to actively work on it anyways.]]>
Polyamoury, monogamishness, non-normativity, Oh My!http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=11148&Focus=357620#Comment_3576202013-08-30T18:40:11-05:002015-08-02T19:40:26-05:00Oddculthttp://freakangels.com/whitechapel/account.php?u=214
Strike 2
Are you saying you're giving me some kind of warning in an official capacity?
If so, can you please be clear about that, and also how many 'strikes' there are, as I think that's ...
Strike 2

Are you saying you're giving me some kind of warning in an official capacity?

If so, can you please be clear about that, and also how many 'strikes' there are, as I think that's something relating to a sport I'm not familiar with.

Then maybe...don't bother clicking on the link to the damn thread and bother reading?

Are you now saying that because I don't relate to certain aspects of something, I don't have any right to participate in discussions about it? Because you seem to be coming close to the sort of 'shaming' that others have already mentioned earlier as issues.]]>
Polyamoury, monogamishness, non-normativity, Oh My!http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=11148&Focus=357621#Comment_3576212013-08-30T18:41:20-05:002015-08-02T19:40:26-05:00Littlepurplegothhttp://freakangels.com/whitechapel/account.php?u=10699
Communication doesn't remove privacy. Indeed it enables you to enhance it. Because saying no, and why isn't possible unless you can generally communicate either.
And sharing doesn't ness. mean ...
And sharing doesn't ness. mean every detail. I'm pretty sure no one here has said that its every detail. Nope, I can't think that I've ever shared specific detail... many wouldn't, unless you wished to say and hear, from one relationship to another in a serially monogamous situation, so why assume that that is what 'telling' is in all non-monogamous situations.

The only things I would say there is a duty to share, is where there is a transfer risk. And that's most definitely about the respect, regard and desire for the other person, for thinking of them when you plan to go down a sexual route.]]>
Polyamoury, monogamishness, non-normativity, Oh My!http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=11148&Focus=357622#Comment_3576222013-08-30T18:47:57-05:002015-08-02T19:40:26-05:00allanahttp://freakangels.com/whitechapel/account.php?u=4019
I'll actually answer that, Oddcult, even though it's clear you're not here to learn. Other people can benefit from this regardless.
One, we are smart people. We have smart conversations. The ...
One, we are smart people. We have smart conversations. The lurid details might be there, but they are part of better and greater narratives about learning about people - and by extension the things that those people know. When my partner comes home enthusing about a great date it's about having a great conversation as much as great chemistry. I'm sorry that doesn't come across explicitly, but I have the sneaking suspicion you don't have smart people sharing insights about modes of speaking or thinking in your regular vicinity.

Two, often that privacy/disclosure stuff gets negotiated as deal-breaker or not. It's a thing that varies from person to person. Like lots of other things. That take communication to establish. In advance of them becoming a problem. You see where I'm going with this? You can have your don't-ask-don't-tell, and I can have my full-disclosure and neither of us need to act like the other is doing something impossible.]]>
Polyamoury, monogamishness, non-normativity, Oh My!http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=11148&Focus=357623#Comment_3576232013-08-30T18:50:59-05:002015-08-02T19:40:26-05:00Oddculthttp://freakangels.com/whitechapel/account.php?u=214
And I have plenty of other reasons that are intimate to my partners and myself, so they're not really open to discussion on a public forum
Okay, and that's something that I can relate to, which ...
And I have plenty of other reasons that are intimate to my partners and myself, so they're not really open to discussion on a public forum

Okay, and that's something that I can relate to, which comes of quite differently to the 'I have to tell everyone all about this!' example presented by allana.

We're agreeing perhaps that some things aren't appropriate to discuss in certain contexts.

someone who has admitted that you're making judgements from the outside

I've got a bit of a problem with this. Where are the lines between inside and outside? That sort of statement seems quite judgemental and setting tests for entry to an us and them situation. You may see my feelings on this as vastly different to yours, but another person may view my thoughts on discreet open relationships as being akin to them, but you'll call me 'someone outside' and I feel I'm getting attacked here, especially with these 'warnings' for just having some opinions.]]>
Polyamoury, monogamishness, non-normativity, Oh My!http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=11148&Focus=357624#Comment_3576242013-08-30T18:52:24-05:002013-08-30T19:19:38-05:00Jason A. Questhttp://freakangels.com/whitechapel/account.php?u=5192
My experience in the aforementioned medium-distance relationship was a lot like what Alanna describes. We didn't share accounts of every sexual adventure (we didn't talk about every meal or movie or ...
every sexual adventure (we didn't talk about every meal or movie or magazine article, either ... gods, how tedious such phone calls would get) but if Scout's visit to the alternative free-trade coffeehouse involved a particularly interesting conversation, it seemed perfectly natural to for her talk about it. And if it also included a particularly interesting sexual hook-up .... I was equally interested. (Which is to say: not as interested as she was, but still curious to hear about it, because it mattered to her.)

Oddcult, that clearly isn't how you feel about it. I sorta get it. Sometimes hearing about what a good time she had was frustrating, because I wished it had been me. Not just because I wished I got to do it, but because I wished it was us who did it. But – personal perspective warning here – if I couldn't be there for her, I was glad that she was still experiencing life ... going to movies, buying CDs, hanging with friends, and sometimes getting her erogenous zones tickled. To me, love is about placing their happiness just a little ahead of mine, and this was one way we did that. And the thought that she wasn't getting any because I was too wrapped up in my life to drive over there and give her some would've upset me, so knowing that she was ... helped make me a little happier too.]]>
Polyamoury, monogamishness, non-normativity, Oh My!http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=11148&Focus=357625#Comment_3576252013-08-30T19:00:32-05:002015-08-02T19:40:26-05:00Oddculthttp://freakangels.com/whitechapel/account.php?u=214
I'll actually answer that, Oddcult, even though it's clear you're not here to learn. Other people can benefit from this regardless.
That's actually pretty damn insulting. Just because I don't see ...
I'll actually answer that, Oddcult, even though it's clear you're not here to learn. Other people can benefit from this regardless.

That's actually pretty damn insulting. Just because I don't see things your way and am not having my attitudes changed, that does not mean I am not listening, receiving information and learning.

I think your attitude to communication, as you've described it, comes from a place I can never relate to or have empathy with. That's not to condemn it and I've learned something from it.

If I'm going to make a judgment, its that I think it should come with an understanding that there are many people you would hurt and upset by being that way, and that's not a problem with them, and that's okay too.]]>
Polyamoury, monogamishness, non-normativity, Oh My!http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=11148&Focus=357626#Comment_3576262013-08-30T19:10:05-05:002015-08-02T19:40:26-05:00allanahttp://freakangels.com/whitechapel/account.php?u=4019
Success! Plurality established.
Cool, let me know if you have any other questions about my life that aren't expressed as skepticism or incredulity.
Cool, let me know if you have any other questions about my life that aren't expressed as skepticism or incredulity.]]>
Polyamoury, monogamishness, non-normativity, Oh My!http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=11148&Focus=357627#Comment_3576272013-08-30T19:17:22-05:002015-08-02T19:40:26-05:00glukkakehttp://freakangels.com/whitechapel/account.php?u=1693
@Oddcult that doesn't discount that in Allana's relationships, it's perfectly fine for her to share every intimate detail. Same, that I don't share intimate details publicly with strangers, but with ...
At this point though, it's been 3 pages of us saying "it works for us because our partners agree that's how it's going to be, so that's why it works". Whether you can wrap your head around that or not, is up to you.

As far as you being on the outside, yes, you said you're not polyamorous. That you're basing your opinions on your friend's anecdotes. So you're making uninformed opinions and I'm saying I'm making informed opinions. Informed by my experience in poly relationships. Which you do not have, which means you do not have inside information but...

(outside).]]>
Polyamoury, monogamishness, non-normativity, Oh My!http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=11148&Focus=357628#Comment_3576282013-08-30T19:21:13-05:002015-08-02T19:40:26-05:00Oddculthttp://freakangels.com/whitechapel/account.php?u=214
I really wasn't making this about you, you know.
But if you are interested in what I've learned, its that perhaps some of the reaction against this that I have is down to a sense that it involves ...
But if you are interested in what I've learned, its that perhaps some of the reaction against this that I have is down to a sense that it involves removal of privacy and the privileging of openness over that in a way that would seem to increase potential for anxiety and tension.

Sex and relationships are about intimacy. The rules of the 'lifestyle' that my details are probably now being circulated throughout with a big warning, seem to me to exclude the sorts of intimacy that I associate with them.]]>
Polyamoury, monogamishness, non-normativity, Oh My!http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=11148&Focus=357630#Comment_3576302013-08-30T19:38:46-05:002015-08-02T19:40:26-05:00Oddculthttp://freakangels.com/whitechapel/account.php?u=214
uninformed opinions
An astronomer doesn't have to be a solar system to be informed about them.
Crap metaphor, but anyway, you'll take the point I hope that having an informed opinion about ...
uninformed opinions

An astronomer doesn't have to be a solar system to be informed about them.

Crap metaphor, but anyway, you'll take the point I hope that having an informed opinion about something and labelling yourself as that thing, are not mutually exclusive. Even more so when it's something that has a fairly fluctuating set of criteria anyway.

I've been in open relationships. Does that make me polyamorous or not? It might meet some definitions of it, but because I don't relate to the term especially, am I excluding myself from it, because I don't like some of the aspects that the 'lifestyle' seems to impose as rules, despite poorly defined entry qualifications?

Those are mostly rhetorical questions, but I hope you'll see the point that neither side of the debate has exclusive rights to judgement calls about it either, and - importantly - negative opinions and statements, even from 'outside' can be valid and meaningful too, and should not be rejected as uninformed just because of their source.

Okay, to bring anecdote into it, having to comfort someone crying and heartbroken because the person they loved was with someone else, but they loved them too much to break up with them too, and then seeing that person go off with someone who was just taking advantage of them being vulnerable, was pretty heartbreaking, even for someone 'outside' that was 'uninformed' who clearly was missing how wonderful it was for all of them, except maybe they'd just it quite got the communication right. But hell, I'm outside and uninformed, so what do I know?]]>
Polyamoury, monogamishness, non-normativity, Oh My!http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=11148&Focus=357631#Comment_3576312013-08-30T19:49:38-05:002015-08-02T19:40:26-05:00Jason A. Questhttp://freakangels.com/whitechapel/account.php?u=5192
I've never felt a loss of privacy in an open relationship. Just because she's telling me and I'm telling her (and probably in less detail with fewer identifying marks than you imagine) doesn't mean ...
about me (or vice versa). Of course that's assuming that it's a relationship involving primaries and adjuncts ("open" not strictly "poly"), but when I picked up a guy who whimpers like a puppy just before he cums, and I told Scout about it, yeah his story got told to someone. But not in a context that gave him a good reason to feel violated by it.]]>
Polyamoury, monogamishness, non-normativity, Oh My!http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=11148&Focus=357633#Comment_3576332013-08-30T20:05:34-05:002013-08-30T20:15:52-05:00glukkakehttp://freakangels.com/whitechapel/account.php?u=1693
@Oddcult - I think you're looking for answers that aren't going to get from my experiences. That's all. I'm done conversing with you on this train of thought.
Polyamoury, monogamishness, non-normativity, Oh My!http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=11148&Focus=357634#Comment_3576342013-08-30T20:39:18-05:002015-08-02T19:40:26-05:00allanahttp://freakangels.com/whitechapel/account.php?u=4019
I'll actually pick up the privacy ball and run with it, since it's something I'm curious about.
Privacy is simply a logistical minefield in the multi-partner context. It's rare to find a couple ...
Privacy is simply a logistical minefield in the multi-partner context. It's rare to find a couple that works by 'sorry I can't see you tonight because I'm ... doing that thing we agreed never to talk about.'I think I might eventually get lax enough to allow for non-disclosure in that vein, but the thing about secrets is that you don't know what they are. If you're comfortable with your partner keeping all types of secrets from you, that's cool. But when someone starts being cagey about their plans you have no way of knowing whether it's because they're being respectful of the boundaries of intimacy or because x other thing is going on. ESPECIALLY-ass when you live with someone. Not knowing if they're coming home at night is mighty weird.

Putting your foot down on don't-tell sounds to me too much like being a bad friend. 'I don't want to hear about it' is a pretty heartless wall to put up if your partner's emotional needs are at stake. Not many relationships of any orientation can survive that.

And as Jason points out, the opposite of privacy isn't embarrassment and exploitation. If people don't want their sexual adventures talked about they had better not have sex at all. Has Sex And The City taught us nothing? People brag about their encounters, laugh about them, ask for advice. To hope for otherwise is pretty naive, and to assume you can control the lines of dissemination so that it never gets back to you is equally so. Them's the breaks.

I'd love it if others could chime in on their experiences here. Privacy and poly just don't jive nearly as well as disclosure and poly, but if anyone has ever made privacy a cornerstone for intimacy's sake, I'd like to know. I'm reasonably sure there's a way to negotiate the logistics without compromising whatever attachment sits between the two.]]>
Polyamoury, monogamishness, non-normativity, Oh My!http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=11148&Focus=357640#Comment_3576402013-08-31T00:43:18-05:002013-08-31T01:01:24-05:00Magnulushttp://freakangels.com/whitechapel/account.php?u=6716
Okay, WOAH! That was pretty crazy...
I feel this whole massive back and forth ranting (aka: Drama) could have been avoided if the communication had been a bit more effective. (see what I did ...
I feel this whole massive back and forth ranting (aka: Drama) could have been avoided if the communication had been a bit more effective. (see what I did there?!) Seems to me that the problem was that while Oddcult was talking about THIS:"if you're saying you utterly, utterly have to tell someone that has feelings for you, just how great the head you got the other night from someone else was, then, well, no. I've got no empathy with that in the slightest and have a fairly visceral reaction against it."

The rest of us were talking about THIS:"sharing doesn't ness. mean every detail. I'm pretty sure no one here has said that its every detail." (From LittlePurpleGoth) and THIS: "but the thing about secrets is that you don't know what they are." (Allana)

I identified this discrepancy within the space of about three posts but sadly I only got to the thread ten minutes ago. The thing is that loads of people are bad at poly relationships. Loads of people are bad at MONO relationships too. It's usually down to communication and honesty. Because without those two, how are you supposed to trust the other person? Not just trust them to do right by you, but trust them to tell you if you're not doing right by THEM? The reason me and my wife's relationship has always worked, even when we've gone through really tough times, is that we can trust each other to tell one another that something is not right. Then we TALK about what's not right. That's what communication is. Communication can ALSO be to talk specifically in detail about something wonderful you experienced that wasn't with your partner, be it art, a movie, sex or a party. However, ultimately, within a relationship you establish "guidelines" for how much of that is fine and where the line goes when there's TMI or when the information just leaves you feeling left out. How do you establish this? COMMUNICATION.

In The Ethical Slut, they mention a relationship where one partner was always very jealous before, whereas she actually finds that she's not jealous when she knows that her man is out with someone, because she doesn't worry who he MIGHT be with or what he MIGHT be doing.

I think if I'm going to concisely define what the problem over these past few pages has been, it would be to say this:Communication is not information, and information is not communication.

They go hand in hand, as you need some information to communicate effectively, but you don't need ALL the information. In our relationship, I like to hear about specific things she's done that are particularly adventurous, special or might make things interesting our OUR bedroom. She very specifically likes me to tell her all of the details, because she's wired that way. Some relationships have a Don't Ask Don't Tell rule, some have "I want to know the barest minimum of detail I need in order to know that you're safe and happy." as their rule. All successful open relationships have different sets of rules regarding information and communication, and they arrive at them through communicating.

This does mean "Talking about your feelings", which to some is like having five root canals while being forced to watch Sharknado AND Miley Cyrus' VMA "performance" (ooooh, topical!) but those people are generally bad at ALL relationships. In a mono relationship, you can "get away" with not talking to each other a lot more easily. An open relationship REQUIRES communication on a massive scale, but that says nothing about talking about how hard you fucked that wee lassie last night.

Okay, analogy time! (Imagine that said in a sing-songy voice)

You know how it's important to be "out" if you're gay? Unless there are extenuating circumstances, your parents should know you're gay if you are. Yes? Do they need to know if you like being fucked in the ass? NO! OF COURSE NOT! Likewise, do I NEED to know what positions that guy fucked my wife in? Of course not!

Sounds like you've been witness to bad relationships full stop, and that's a shitty thing to bear witness to. But they were not bad because of communication. They were bad because of a lack of regard for at least one person in the relationship.

EDIT:I would just like to add that this is exactly the kind of discussion I was kind of hoping we would have, though it got out of hand a bit. I'm honestly very glad to hear Oddcult's thoughts on this and I hope that my post has gone some way to clarifying what seems to be a barrier to understanding between him and the polys. I definitely think there's common ground here but that part of the discussion got off on the wrong foot a bit.]]>
Polyamoury, monogamishness, non-normativity, Oh My!http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=11148&Focus=357644#Comment_3576442013-08-31T04:40:54-05:002015-08-02T19:40:26-05:00Oddculthttp://freakangels.com/whitechapel/account.php?u=214
Has Sex And The City taught us nothing? People brag about their encounters, laugh about them, ask for advice. To hope for otherwise is pretty naive, and to assume you can control the lines of ...
Has Sex And The City taught us nothing? People brag about their encounters, laugh about them, ask for advice. To hope for otherwise is pretty naive, and to assume you can control the lines of dissemination so that it never gets back to you is equally so. Them's the breaks.

Well, I'm only vaguely aware of Sex and the City by general cultural assimilation and seeing the trailers for the films when I've been in the cinema to see other thing, but it seems like a horrible alienating caricature of a certain lifestyle, not anything to aspire to.

I'm not especially prudish, and to counter with something else that was talking about sex a lot, but seemingly from a totally different perspective, I followed Belle de Jour almost right from the start. That was because she's an excellent writer, and although she was talking about sex and relationships and the sometimes unconventional, she was also the soul of discretion and privacy - both her own and that of the people she was writing about. I can respect - and also enjoy - that in a way that Sex in the City's oversharing and shallow crassness is a million miles away from.

If you're comfortable with your partner keeping all types of secrets from you, that's cool. But when someone starts being cagey about their plans you have no way of knowing whether it's because they're being respectful of the boundaries of intimacy or because x other thing is going on. ESPECIALLY-ass when you live with someone. Not knowing if they're coming home at night is mighty weird.

See, that's freedom to me. Not the right to be able to have sex with whoever I want or form multiple relationships. But to not have to justify myself or explain. I might not want to see someone because I want to read my book. Or listen to some music and stare at the wall. Even if I'm seeing the hottest person in the world and they promise the most freaky night of kinky monkey love I might still just want to read my book, or stare at the wall and listen to music and I don't want to have to justify that or explain it.

Communication is not so wonderful if I feel it's coerced. The surest way to get me to break up with you, is if you ask 'what're you thinking?' - if it's not in the context, say, of already making a choice between one thing or another, but as just a general enquiry, or because I've got a look on my face that someone feels needs explanation.

So, as for 'communication', if I can communicate that 'sometimes I don't want to communicate, and I never want to have to explain that' then maybe it's okay. I want to be able to pull down a blind that says 'sorry, not available to you' without insult being taken or being blamed for that.

Which is why I feel a lot like all this 'THOU SHALT COMMUNICATE!' is oppressive and overbearing and as likely to cause problems as a lack of communication.

Sounds like you've been witness to bad relationships full stop, and that's a shitty thing to bear witness to. But they were not bad because of communication. They were bad because of a lack of regard for at least one person in the relationship.

I've been witness to a lot of relationships of all kinds, some bad, some good. But absolutely some of the bad ones were bad because of a mismatch in the levels of communication expected. And the really important thing to consider there is that the person who wanted less, or to not share everything, had as much right to that as the other person but going by what many are saying here, they'd make this that party's fault and that the person who wants sharing has their position privileged over the person that doesn't. And what I'm saying is that that's not okay or necessarily the right thing.

You know how it's important to be "out" if you're gay?

Once again you're losing me here.

Being gay should not be something anyone is persecuted for, so that they're expected to hide their sexuality, of course, but in a lot of situations - such as the workplace - it should be no one's business and irrelevant, and up to the individual as to whether they want to disclose it or not, and to have various levels of disclosure they're happy with.

It's probably important for people considered role models to not lie about their sexuality, but in a properly enlightened world it should just not matter.]]>
Polyamoury, monogamishness, non-normativity, Oh My!http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=11148&Focus=357645#Comment_3576452013-08-31T06:20:08-05:002013-08-31T06:31:14-05:00Jason A. Questhttp://freakangels.com/whitechapel/account.php?u=5192
I consider myself a pretty private person, at least in the sense that I'm selective about what I share with whom. For example, while I have comix about my sex life online, I don't post photos of ...
is relevant in that situation), but I don't tell them anything at all about that relationship (especially the poly/open aspect). I'm carefully evasive if people ask things I don't want to share. I have a not-especially-close friend who sometimes calls me up and asks "what're you doin'?" It's none of his fucking business whether I was scrubbing stains out of my sheets, drawing porn, making cannabutter, watching a Wonderection concert on TV in my undies, or whatever. I consider that privacy-intruding, so I make up boring lies. But a romantic partner asking "what are you thinking?" as a conversation starter, or expecting more than "I have plans" as an explanation for why I turn down an invitation to get together? Not particularly. That's the privacy that one exchanges for intimacy. It certainly isn't coercive, and if you feel it is, then you have unusually high expectations of privacy, and that's going to cause problems in almost any sort of romantic relationship.]]>
Polyamoury, monogamishness, non-normativity, Oh My!http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=11148&Focus=357646#Comment_3576462013-08-31T06:25:35-05:002015-08-02T19:40:26-05:00texturehttp://freakangels.com/whitechapel/account.php?u=1472
Monogamy isn't working for me.
Perhaps it is because despite what I do with the rest of my time (writing, a form of communication), I must be pretty shit at communicating person-to-person. I have ...
Perhaps it is because despite what I do with the rest of my time (writing, a form of communication), I must be pretty shit at communicating person-to-person. I have been in monogamous relationships most of my adult life, and apart from one period in an open relationship - the early stages of what became a very long, mostly happy monogamous relationship - I've never experimented with any kind of poly or other lifestyle, other than sleeping with a few boys in my teens (I'm definitely bi, with a strong bias towards hetero).

An aside: The mag I write for used to have an LGBT section - they re-named it 'Deviance' and this still pisses me off. ALL of these lifestyles/outlooks/practices seem eminently valuable and equally acceptable ways of expressing a deep and human need.

Anyway, what I've found in my experience as a serial monogamist is that all too often things fall into a pattern which leaves me craving more sex than I get, and feeling unable to do anything about it, other than talk in the abstract. I think, for someone who has had many partners and several close, loving relationships, I am incredibly ignorant about how to communicate my wants and needs, and to sense and satisfy the wants and needs of others. I'm a sexual-emotional cripple in many ways.

There are aspects of what I find a turn-on that I've never felt comfortable sharing (*note - really quite vanilla aspects, I'm just rubbish...!), and have never felt comfortable telling a partner what I like, or good at eliciting that information from them. Not only does this, I'm pretty sure, make me a shit lay in general, it probably means I'm a pretty unbearable partner.

I love my current partner deeply and passionately, and as a team, we are unbeatable. But when it comes to sex, we're like an old, married couple, and it isn't like it's just a case of things becoming stagnant. I think there are some basic misconceptions in our relationship about who we are (and can be) to each other. I think we both have an idea of who we want to be with and how, sexually, but no language to express it. I'm extremely envious of people who have experimented with or become comfortable with polyamory and things like that... I wish I could feel as liberated, in my own life, to choose, ask for or even know what I really want. I admire your self-knowledge, and your comfortableness when it comes to things I would feel are 'too risky', like sharing a partner with someone else. I'm even envious of people who are monogamous, vanilla, and completely happy. Would that I were able to accept things as I find them...

I would really like to fix the relationship I am in, because I love my partner, and I would really like to gain some sexual/emotional literacy, to learn the language that would help me express what I want, ask and listen to what others want, and have a more fulfilling experience of that side of my life. But I don't know where to begin, not least because the majority of the people I know and the culture I experience is rigidly heteronormative (not a fan of that word but it works, I guess, in context), and my network of close friends even more so - everyone coupled off in boy/girl relationships, getting married and having kids.

I feel, sometimes, like I've missed the boat when it comes to my sex life - that I've missed the opportunity to explore what I feel is probably a far more complex series of options and choices than I've allowed myself to consider. So this thread has been valuable, illuminating, to say the least. I don't feel I can talk about this with anyone I know IRL.

If I may be permitted a question, where do I go from here? I'd value some opinions and advice. Hope that isn't too much of a threadjack.]]>
Polyamoury, monogamishness, non-normativity, Oh My!http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=11148&Focus=357647#Comment_3576472013-08-31T06:26:33-05:002013-08-31T06:28:08-05:00allanahttp://freakangels.com/whitechapel/account.php?u=4019
Oddcult/anyone else to whom it applies:
It's not really necessary for you to contribute every instance of your ignorance. You would better serve this discussion by only chiming when you DO relate ...
It's not really necessary for you to contribute every instance of your ignorance. You would better serve this discussion by only chiming when you DO relate to something someone else has said. Clearly you have some emotional prudishness that outweighs any sexual prudishness, and that's cool, you have a right to your vague sociopathies, but this isn't the place for them anymore.]]>
Polyamoury, monogamishness, non-normativity, Oh My!http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=11148&Focus=357651#Comment_3576512013-08-31T06:37:33-05:002013-08-31T06:37:55-05:00texturehttp://freakangels.com/whitechapel/account.php?u=1472
Not sure if any of that was aimed at my own 'prudishness', allana, but if so that's a fair enough comment. I relate to a lot of what's been said, I just have little experience of it, hence the ...
Polyamoury, monogamishness, non-normativity, Oh My!http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=11148&Focus=357652#Comment_3576522013-08-31T06:39:59-05:002015-08-02T19:40:26-05:00allanahttp://freakangels.com/whitechapel/account.php?u=4019
texture: Does 'talk in the abstract' mean saying 'You know, I guess I just have a really high sex drive!' and then waggling your eyebrows a bunch?
Seriously though, comfort and experience are at ...
Seriously though, comfort and experience are at opposite ends of the spectrum on this one. You'll have to forego one for the other, or at least risk foregoing. It takes attempts and failures to figure this out. For me the number one discomfort is talking about what I want in bed, and I'm sure there will be enthusiastic agreements from a number me people. Women especially are exposed to a lot of fiction that describes the height of passion as some wordless communion of souls, which makes us all feel like we're insulting our partners by instructing them. And men are exposed to a lot of experience = authority rhetoric, without any reflection on the nature or quality of that experience. The first step there is simply to acknowledge that you feel silly and naive, have a laugh about how much culture sucks, and then be earnest about the fact that the ultimate goal is greater pleasure for everyone involved.]]>
Polyamoury, monogamishness, non-normativity, Oh My!http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=11148&Focus=357653#Comment_3576532013-08-31T06:42:06-05:002013-08-31T06:44:11-05:00allanahttp://freakangels.com/whitechapel/account.php?u=4019
Woah, son, no worries! We could use some directed requests for advice up in here. It's shooting down all attempts to help, in non-constructive ways, that we're trying to avoid.
Polyamoury, monogamishness, non-normativity, Oh My!http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=11148&Focus=357654#Comment_3576542013-08-31T06:44:11-05:002015-08-02T19:40:26-05:00texturehttp://freakangels.com/whitechapel/account.php?u=1472
Than you for clarifying, I guess that's what I'm asking... give me your wisdom, oh sexually enlightened beings, and experienced practitioners of both mono and other paths! :)
For me the number one ...

For me the number one discomfort is talking about what I want in bed

Yup, me too, always been difficult for me... so that's the most important question I guess. How do you even begin to express these things without squirming?]]>
Polyamoury, monogamishness, non-normativity, Oh My!http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=11148&Focus=357655#Comment_3576552013-08-31T06:47:43-05:002015-08-02T19:40:26-05:00allanahttp://freakangels.com/whitechapel/account.php?u=4019
Dan Savage, I find, has a bunch of varied advice on this. Sometimes he's all 'be upfront bro' and sometimes he's like 'hint it, send them an Oglaf comic, show them a scene from a movie, dance around ...
But who's to say squirming can't be kind of fun?]]>
Polyamoury, monogamishness, non-normativity, Oh My!http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=11148&Focus=357656#Comment_3576562013-08-31T07:03:15-05:002015-08-02T19:40:26-05:00Argoshttp://freakangels.com/whitechapel/account.php?u=7792
How do you even begin to express these things without squirming?
Haha, oh man. For me it was like rock climbing. The first time you fall it's scary as fuck, but once you know that rope is there ...
How do you even begin to express these things without squirming?

Haha, oh man. For me it was like rock climbing. The first time you fall it's scary as fuck, but once you know that rope is there to catch and hold you, and once you know what if feels like to fall and have that rope stop you, it becomes easier to do it. The first time is hard but you kind of just have to do it to break the ice. Luckily though get used to it and it gets less squirmy each time. You might also be surprised how at times, you'll start sheepishly with one questions and then suddenly things come tumbling out and your sex life changes for a while as you try all the new things at once. This happened to us.

Also, and I'm being totally serious here, sometimes when we want something we're really embarrassed to admit, we'll whisper it into each others' ears like a secret. It somehow makes it easier. Also, in my case, I communicate much better in written form than in verbal form, because i have time to write down my thoughts and edit them, so if there's an issue or something I want that i have trouble talking about verbally, I'll ask him over gchat or even in an email.

Another way, and this one is tough, is to just ask each other as you do things if it's good. "How does this feel?" "Is this alright?" "Do you prefer I do it like this or this?" This one is tough because it puts it on the other person to figure out what you want, and you can't make them ask you questions, but I find it gets easier once one person takes the initiative.

i hope this helps, i'll add more things as I remember them and when I don't have to leave for work soon.]]>
Polyamoury, monogamishness, non-normativity, Oh My!http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=11148&Focus=357657#Comment_3576572013-08-31T08:14:04-05:002015-08-02T19:40:26-05:00texturehttp://freakangels.com/whitechapel/account.php?u=1472
This is brilliant, and I'm really enjoying Dan Savage
Polyamoury, monogamishness, non-normativity, Oh My!http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=11148&Focus=357658#Comment_3576582013-08-31T08:23:10-05:002013-08-31T09:27:10-05:00Oddculthttp://freakangels.com/whitechapel/account.php?u=214
allana 58 minutes ago edited (11148.95)
Oddcult/anyone else to whom it applies:
It's not really necessary for you to contribute every instance of your ignorance. You would better serve this ...
allana 58 minutes ago edited (11148.95)Oddcult/anyone else to whom it applies:It's not really necessary for you to contribute every instance of your ignorance. You would better serve this discussion by only chiming when you DO relate to something someone else has said.Clearly you have some emotional prudishness that outweighs any sexual prudishness, and that's cool, you have a right to your vague sociopathies, but this isn't the place for them anymore.

Again, whoa!

I can't believe *i've* been called 'insulting' and given warnings of a sort, when you're happy to say something like this.

I was talking in generalities, but you're being specifically rude to me now.

Perhaps you should consider that just because a thread is titled something that you relate to, that does not mean you have the right to police the attitudes of people who are also contributing.

You're trying to prude-shame me here and are judging me negatively and using some pretty insulting terms about that. Sociopathic, ignorant - not cool.

This isn't just a club for happy poly people who're the only ones permitted to frame the terms of the discussion, and you're trying to shut me out of that with a highly judgemental and offensive set of prejudices of your own. Not really effective communication there. Especially when I've suggested a different model for relationships, that you're strongly rejecting and being quite dismissive about, which certainly is relevant to this discussion.

I'm reluctant to draw conclusions from two people that identify as poly telling me I don't have a right to a voice because they don't like what I've got so say, but it hardly seems an example of this open- minded communication that you're claiming to espouse, and feels like the imposition of rules rather than a willingness to negotiate them.

Why am I 'sociopathic' just because I need downtime and don't feel I owe explanations for that? How's it okay to say that? Now THAT is insulting! I've as much right to want to live that way without being judged for it, as anyone has.]]>
Polyamoury, monogamishness, non-normativity, Oh My!http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=11148&Focus=357661#Comment_3576612013-08-31T12:07:14-05:002015-08-02T19:40:26-05:00glukkakehttp://freakangels.com/whitechapel/account.php?u=1693
@texture I *still* squirm when I talk about the things I want. I don't even think I'm particularly deviant, but a few of my kinks that I discovered did require some stumbly introductions from ...
For the talking about it, I poked around at "hey, there's this thing I found online" and then "I bought this thing" and then "there's a thing I'm experimenting with" and then "do you want to introduce this into what we're doing?" It was a combination of text/photo/talking in person based, being flirty and seeing how responsive they were. Because talking about sexy things is sexy! Ultimately, I was still too nervous to work it into our situation. Because of my own shyness. But, that does mean that the next time I find someone who is into it, I'll try again to make it work.

My biggest hurdle in any relationship (monogamous or not) has been to trust that my partner is on my side. That they're keen on joining me in my adventures and experience, that they don't want me to pretend to be someone I'm not just to spare their feelings, because for some reason I should be unhappy to keep them happy. Once I feel that, the breaking-out-of-my-shell communication comes. It can still take a while and it's scary. But it'll come.]]>
Polyamoury, monogamishness, non-normativity, Oh My!http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=11148&Focus=357663#Comment_3576632013-08-31T12:21:43-05:002013-08-31T12:56:30-05:00Littlepurplegothhttp://freakangels.com/whitechapel/account.php?u=10699
Oh Argos is one wise person :-)
Texture. My addition to that, is that the sooner you get in there the easier it is. Don't leave it until you are resenting things, and they are wondering what is ...
Texture. My addition to that, is that the sooner you get in there the easier it is. Don't leave it until you are resenting things, and they are wondering what is going on in your head (because humans are incredibly good at 'not noticing' that anything is up, when every fibre of your being is yelling that something is up) because living life in a state of flight or fight is a really bad idea, it does huge damage that persists long after the relationship stuff is 'sorted'.

(I'm still really struggling with my responses to really ordinary bits of life, I sabotage stuff that is going well, not good with needing to earn and being freelance... knowing who and what I am is about the only thing that is working well, everything else is a work in progress)]]>
Polyamoury, monogamishness, non-normativity, Oh My!http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=11148&Focus=357665#Comment_3576652013-08-31T12:33:31-05:002015-08-02T19:40:26-05:00Magnulushttp://freakangels.com/whitechapel/account.php?u=6716
@Texture
I've mentioned it before, and opinion on this book is OBVIOUSLY divided among the Chaplains, but you could give The Ethical Slut a go and see if you gain anything from it. There's a lot ...
@TextureI've mentioned it before, and opinion on this book is OBVIOUSLY divided among the Chaplains, but you could give The Ethical Slut a go and see if you gain anything from it. There's a lot about opening yourself up to your partner and finding your ways together, negotiating boundaries and dealing with a range of similar situations. Maybe there are other books that are better suited if you're not specifically looking for poly, though.

Dan Savage is great and I've listened to every single episode (I went through his entire archive when I started listening in 2010). He mentions a book called Sex At Dawn quite a few times, and I've been meaning to check that out. In general, though, he's great at the whole sex-positive advice thing. A good throughline of his is "Don't lay a kink or request out like you have cancer. Give it a positive 'hey, guess what we're gonna try and it's gonna be awesome!' spin rather than 'This is probably really disgusting, but do you think we could try this one thing- oh, never mind, you'll never agree' etc." Also "GGG" is a great one of his. Being Good, Giving and Game. AND, "sex is ridiculous". You should be able to be awkward and laugh about it. Sex is physical, interpersonal play. So Play! :)

As for what I want... I get asked that question a lot, and I always come up short. I'm like "Uh... biting is nice... A...nal? Maybe light bondage?" and that's about it. I've realised that my sexual repertoire isn't all that well developed.

It's kinda like my knowledge of web development. I learned to do HTML in the nineties, and I was REALLY fuckin' good at basic HTML, but when CSS came on the scene giving us all these advanced options, I was like "I don't know what to do with this." and for a while I just did HTML and the simplest of CSS bits to set up style. I got REALLY good at basic frames and tables. I was a fuckin' master of tables. And that's me now with sex. I know basic HTML really well (at least if my partners are to be believed) but my CSS skills are severely lacking. The difference is that in SEX I'm now involving myself in a community of people who are really good at CSS so I can expand my horizons a bit, and I'm dabbling myself.

Wow, that might have been my most contrived allegory yet. :D]]>
Polyamoury, monogamishness, non-normativity, Oh My!http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=11148&Focus=357672#Comment_3576722013-08-31T13:48:53-05:002015-08-02T19:40:26-05:00Jack Crowderhttp://freakangels.com/whitechapel/account.php?u=6537
@ Magnulus;
I highly respect how you've manage to keep this environment open throughout.
I highly respect how you've manage to keep this environment open throughout.]]>
Polyamoury, monogamishness, non-normativity, Oh My!http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=11148&Focus=357675#Comment_3576752013-08-31T14:31:17-05:002015-08-02T19:40:26-05:00Littlepurplegothhttp://freakangels.com/whitechapel/account.php?u=10699
It might seem contrived to you Magnulus, but its a pretty normal to use one around the geeks...
and some of them are so very very pretty but have to be hit on the head with a baseball batchunk of ...
and some of them are so very very pretty but have to be hit on the head with a baseball batchunk of code before they notice anyone is flagging an interest...

Which is where the 'next' issue comes in really. How do, what do others do around letting an interest in someone be known? I'm guessing that my, well, need to be on friendly terms and actually know someone before it (generally!) occurs to me that they are quite nice is the norm, but its sometimes a surprise on the part of others that I'm even looking twice at being friends with them let alone making any space for anything else to occur. Add in that I'm just a fairly friendly person and there are an awful lot of people out there who see a friendly female and *assume* ... argh, and they are never the ones who could assume from my pov!]]>
Polyamoury, monogamishness, non-normativity, Oh My!http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=11148&Focus=357684#Comment_3576842013-08-31T16:44:50-05:002015-08-02T19:40:26-05:00Jason A. Questhttp://freakangels.com/whitechapel/account.php?u=5192
Why am I 'sociopathic' just because I need downtime and don't feel I owe explanations for that? How's it okay to say that? Now THAT is insulting! I've as much right to want to live that way without ...
Why am I 'sociopathic' just because I need downtime and don't feel I owe explanations for that? How's it okay to say that? Now THAT is insulting! I've as much right to want to live that way without being judged for it, as anyone has. This is a fair point. First, "sociopathy" is a shotgun term: loaded and imprecise. I'm not qualified to evaluate Oddcult's personality type, but I suspect there's a more descriptive and accurate term that could be used instead. Second, if one is comfortable living in a "non-normative" relationship in which intimacy-building communication may not be "coerced" by asking questions, and one can find one or more consenting adults who are OK with that ... it's no one else's place to judge that.

On the other hand: Oddcult, you ought to understand that your model of a relationship with such limits on communication is "non-normative", and that needing more communication than that is not an act of hostility. Please stop complaining when others state that in their experience that level of incommunication in a poly (or even mono) relationship is likely to lead to a trainwreck.]]>
Polyamoury, monogamishness, non-normativity, Oh My!http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=11148&Focus=357685#Comment_3576852013-08-31T17:09:15-05:002015-08-02T19:40:26-05:00Magnulushttp://freakangels.com/whitechapel/account.php?u=6716
You make some very salient points, Jason, and I'm in no way a moderator or the arbitrator of this thread, but: Can we please leave the discussion with Oddcult behind? It stopped being fruitful about ...
Littlepurplegoth: I really have no clue. There is very little method to what I do. APPARENTLY, I have a "gaze" that I set upon people without knowing (can you imagine that, Helen? :) ) but generally, I'm a flirtatious but slow-moving guy. I'm terrified of making an unwanted move, so I'll move at a glacial pace unless my vaguer advances are met with unmistakable welcome. I've been told more than once to "shut up and kiss me" either verbally or by simply stopping me talking with a kiss. On the other hand, because I'm so cautious, I've never made a move for a kiss that was not reciprocated, so I guess something's working.

That's not really helpful. SOZ! :)

Being in an open relationship is weird when it comes to meeting folk. Some, I can see instantly dismiss me the second I tell them. Some give me the initial dismissal that sounds more like a "That's weird for me... But I want to know more." and which is usually followed by lots of questions leading to an understanding that I'm not a cheat (the most galling piece of conflation I meet: Poly? Oh, so you're "Allowed to cheat") but actually an honest dude. There are the ones who are very intrigued, the ones who almost instantly "switch on" when I tell them, and the ones who are just like "Well, yeah. Makes sense." It always saddens me when I meet the ones who immediately dismiss me as "looking for a shag" when I tell them. I'm looking for love just like everyone else, and though I might not be as PRESENT as a primary boyfriend, I would be at least as loving. Sometimes, we all want a shag, but that's not nearly everything this is about... And some just don't want to see that.

Which is fine. At least I know, so we know we're not compatible. That's the important part. And that's why I always disclose, despite it sometimes leading to awkward moments. OH WELL!]]>
Polyamoury, monogamishness, non-normativity, Oh My!http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=11148&Focus=357686#Comment_3576862013-08-31T17:42:26-05:002015-08-02T19:40:26-05:00razrangelhttp://freakangels.com/whitechapel/account.php?u=2075
I've been trying to figure out how to write here because I get bogged down in details that don't really seem like they'll express what goes on with me. Either past experiences that went awry or the ...
Maybe it's that monogamous and poly- situations have all left me feeling uncomfortable, constrained and unsure of myself. Or maybe it's just those relationships with those people were ultimately not right for me. It could be be the parameters of who is allowed to do what, or it could be the actual personalities... it's a little hard to say.

Either way, lying to oneself seems to have been what did the relationships in. Sometimes it was me, sometimes it was my primary partner. We've been talking about communication and it's a pretty complicated subject. But it is absolutely vital because without it there is little reliable emotional health to count on. I've dated people that I knew from the outset weren't the healthiest around and I made the express request that they don't hide their feelings from me. When shit went down guess just what was the lynch pin....

I think I foul up when I feel like asking the other person to change or to give a little and then I don't because it runs right into the idea that I like them how they are. Basically, it's a personal trap between mind and heart and I haven't figured out how to talk with someone about these areas.

So either way, yes to communications, with the necessary corollary that it may be best assume that not everyone has the same ability level and that the methods and words we use may be totally and completely different.To that, I'd like to quote @allana - "Women especially are exposed to a lot of fiction that describes the height of passion as some wordless communion of souls, which makes us all feel like we're insulting our partners by instructing them. And men are exposed to a lot of experience = authority rhetoric, without any reflection on the nature or quality of that experience. " <---- YES, THIS. TOTALLY THIS.

But, to the original question/discussion point. I'm not strictly monogamous, though I hold out the idea that I could be if I someone I really dug asked me to. Maybe it's a yearning for what Magnus and Bob identified as "it just feels right." I'm open to conversations about alternate sex partners, but I might be more squidgy about romantic partners for various reasons of past experiences. Everything is couched in might and may because it's all horribly subjective to how comfortable I feel with a given partner, who is, at this time, completely hypothetical.

Someone who up and assumed poly- would be as much a non-starter as someone who assumed monogamy, especially if I weren't allowed to talk about either.

[And I didn't even get into all the kink stuff.][But yay I kept whining about being single to a minimum. I think.]]]>
Polyamoury, monogamishness, non-normativity, Oh My!http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=11148&Focus=357687#Comment_3576872013-08-31T17:57:14-05:002015-08-02T19:40:26-05:00Argoshttp://freakangels.com/whitechapel/account.php?u=7792
Also wanted to add one thing that was on my mind all day -
In my experience, "communication" doesn't mean "All partners must know all details of all sexual activities," rather ...
In my experience, "communication" doesn't mean "All partners must know all details of all sexual activities," rather it means "discuss your needs and wants so we can all be on the same page and gets those needs and wants met." For one person, that need might be to know the details of sexual escapades engaged with other people, while for another person, their need might be not wanting to know any of the details. I've met poly people who discuss everything, poly people who discuss nothing beyond "i fucked someone just fyi," others who want to meet any potential partners their partners might have, others who want nothing to do with their partner's partners, etc...

What I mean is, it's incredibly reductive to say that "communication" always means spilling every detail about every sexual encounter. It's my experience that communication means being upfront about your needs rather than beating around the bush and then getting all passive aggressive about it.]]>
Polyamoury, monogamishness, non-normativity, Oh My!http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=11148&Focus=357691#Comment_3576912013-08-31T18:53:29-05:002015-08-02T19:40:26-05:00sellmeyoursoulhttp://freakangels.com/whitechapel/account.php?u=9518
First off... thank you all who've shared. This thread is enlightening. I want to have an intimate sexual/asexual relationship with each and every one of you now!
For me it's hard to talk about ...
For me it's hard to talk about sex/sexuality without talking about a lot of other shit that is/was wrong with me. I've only ever had monogamous relationships. Even the few (two?) times where I stated that I needed to be able to see other people while maintaining a "dating" relationship with someone, I never actually did. Oddly enough (or possibly not) I would have been completely OK with the other person doing so. I like to think that at least I'm not a hypocrite. That said, I can count the number of relationships I've had that hit the six month mark on one hand and still have fingers to spare so my sample set may not be statistically significant. In my youth, I really wanted to find "the one" and I put a lot of energy into that. The problem was that I was an emotional wreck so only seemed able to connect with other emotional wrecks. It turned out that marrying the first person who would have me didn't actually fix the parts of myself that I didn't like. It just made things worse.

These days, I've mostly sorted my issues (it turns out that I'm not a consolation prize and fuck anyone who would treat me like I was). In the process I've come to the conclusion that there really aren't soulmates or what-have-yous. There are many people whom I would consider a good match. Most of them are not interested in me romantically, and that's OK. Eventually, I'll find one who is and that will be even better. Trying to define a relationship with that person before I even meet her seems absurd. If she wants an open relationship, I would try it. If it didn't work out because it turns out that I can't deal then I would be sad for a bit and then move on with my life. If the hypothetical woman wants a monogamous relationship, that's fine too. I never had any trouble being faithful in my previous failures, I can't imagine I'd have trouble with someone who A) really wants to be with me & B) meets my emotional needs.

I expect I would find an open relationship challenging for a couple of reasons. I don't think the sex with other people would bother me but the intimacy might. The other thing is that I'd feel pressure to see other people too and I really am sick of dating. I do it now because I want to have a romantic partner and how the hell else am I going to find one? I may resent the having to do that shit again when damn, the woman I want to spend my time with is at home. And then resent myself for feeling like it's a competition. It's possible that I'd work through that, come out the other side and reach a point where I'd take a "better you than me" attitude. Or possibly I'd pack my emotional bags and move on. Of course dating may be a lot more fun when all the pressure for it to be anything more than it is is gone. Who knows, maybe it would be the greatest thing ever. (Note to self: try and be more like that guy today.)

Put me down on the side of communication good, regardless of the number of people involved in the relationship. Bram, my advice, for what it's worth, would be to have a conversation about wanting to have a conversation about sex. That way you can be up front about how uncomfortable you are, but since you love your partner and want to make things work, you're putting yourself out there. I can tell you from experience, when sex feels like a chore it becomes one. Of course, I would literally get yelled at in the middle of for changing things (I'm still not sure what I was doing before or after, save that after I felt significantly less like I wanted to have sex anymore), so my experience may be on the extreme end of things.]]>
Polyamoury, monogamishness, non-normativity, Oh My!http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=11148&Focus=357694#Comment_3576942013-08-31T20:31:11-05:002015-08-02T19:40:26-05:00glukkakehttp://freakangels.com/whitechapel/account.php?u=1693
@Littlepurplegoth I basically just lay it right out on the table of "Hi! Yes, that's my partner, but we're in an open dontcallitarelationshipcurrentlybecauseihatethatwordbutwereallyneedaword ...
For negotiating the fact that they are walking into a poly relationship if I didn't do the overshare thing, I liken it to having the STD talk. "Hey, I like you, I want to take things past the friend thing, but there's something you should know about me..."

I feel like also establishing what they might come to expect of you helps. I know that navigating with women who have met my dude, they're immediately assuming I'm doing the "OKCupid/come home with us and by us I mean to have my boyfriend fuck you" thing. Which is, arggghnoo. And I find that's where some people get weirded out by meeting/interacting with the primary partner. Like there's this expectation that you should all get along together and eventually become one big triad, which is a whooole other thing, but I just wanted to touch on that since Argos(i think?) mentioned it.]]>
Polyamoury, monogamishness, non-normativity, Oh My!http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=11148&Focus=357699#Comment_3576992013-08-31T21:53:14-05:002015-08-02T19:40:26-05:00Argoshttp://freakangels.com/whitechapel/account.php?u=7792
Yeah, I've met some couples where it's like, every potential new partner has to meet the primary and get along with them and everyone has to be friends. Not necessarily to become a triad, but more ...
Polyamoury, monogamishness, non-normativity, Oh My!http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=11148&Focus=357705#Comment_3577052013-09-01T01:00:34-05:002015-08-02T19:40:26-05:00Magnulushttp://freakangels.com/whitechapel/account.php?u=6716
Some choice stuff in Sellmeyoursoul's post!
Most of them are not interested in me romantically, and that's OK. Eventually, I'll find one who is and that will be even better. Trying to define a ...
Sellmeyoursoul's post!

Most of them are not interested in me romantically, and that's OK. Eventually, I'll find one who is and that will be even better. Trying to define a relationship with that person before I even meet her seems absurd. If she wants an open relationship, I would try it. If it didn't work out because it turns out that I can't deal then I would be sad for a bit and then move on with my life. If the hypothetical woman wants a monogamous relationship, that's fine too.

This is a very good way to think about things. Being able to let things go is incredibly important, and understanding that it's not because you don't CARE, it's a realisation that there are other things that take precedence.

I've been kinda "needy" in the past and felt almost resentful of friends I really wanted to be with in a sexual or romantic way but who were not interested in me like that. I would even get irrationally jealous of their boyfriends if they had/ got them, which is SO WEIRD, because I'm not jealous at ALL with my wife. I would even get jealous of friends' boyfriends when I was in a MONO relationship. I still don't quite understand how that worked.

Since then, I've been able to chill out and abolish the NEED for people and relationships that I would LIKE to have. If it doesn't happen, that's FINE. I still occassionally get little wibbles when I discover that someone I'm interested in has a partner already, but they're only tiny quick reflexes and are quickly excised.

The other thing is that I'd feel pressure to see other people too and I really am sick of dating. I do it now because I want to have a romantic partner and how the hell else am I going to find one? I may resent the having to do that shit again when damn, the woman I want to spend my time with is at home. And then resent myself for feeling like it's a competition

Yeah, we had some bouts of this competition thing early on when we opened. I think it's a fairly normal first few stages of an open relationship. We were still figuring things out and figuring out how this works for us, and we got competitive in our own ways.

Bram, my advice, for what it's worth, would be to have a conversation about wanting to have a conversation about sex.

YES! Schedule a discussion about sex a week or so ahead of time. Put her mind to rest that you're only looking for a discussion and not looking to assign blame to anyone for anything, etc, of course. But do PLAN to have the conversation. This means that no one would have to get blindsided by questions. Maybe write down in a little shared notebook any questions you would like to ask each other and check in on it so you can know what you'll be discussing. It's a good thing to have thought through these things, because you can really hone in on what you're thinking about it.

Then talk about it for as long as it feels useful and schedule a new chat a week from then. ESPECIALLY stop if you get into an argument. If you're getting nowhere, stop. Breathe. Schedule another discussion. You'll have a LOT to think about and a LOT to digest. You'll most likely be able to resolve that argument that happened once you've both been away and thought about it.

Argos

In my experience, "communication" doesn't mean "All partners must know all details of all sexual activities," rather it means "discuss your needs and wants so we can all be on the same page and gets those needs and wants met."

This. So much this.

Jackcrowder: Thanks, man. :) I hate a discussion where everyone doesn't feel comfortable sharing their POV for fear of misdirected anger. I know I can be quite opinionated and sound as if I don't want a discussion, which is really frustrating because I genuinely, actively want to have respectful discussions with people I disagree with. I've had brilliant discussions with pro-gun folk and pro-life folk so I SHOULD be able to keep it civil with someone who's "just mono". :D]]>
Polyamoury, monogamishness, non-normativity, Oh My!http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=11148&Focus=357706#Comment_3577062013-09-01T02:15:35-05:002015-08-02T19:40:26-05:00Oddculthttp://freakangels.com/whitechapel/account.php?u=214
ITT: I learn how much people who claim to be all about communication actually dislike communication unless it's on their terms and policed by them.
Polyamoury, monogamishness, non-normativity, Oh My!http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=11148&Focus=357707#Comment_3577072013-09-01T03:05:30-05:002013-09-01T05:22:48-05:00fleckyhttp://freakangels.com/whitechapel/account.php?u=8949
I must be a bit of a square around this subject. When I was younger and had many "sex-buddies", I was really unhappy. I was trying to find some sort of unrealistic love. I was never really ...
I'd like to believe in monogamous relationships, but I can understand poly. Saying that, all I can see is jealousy, shame etc in multiple partners. Even "threesomes" led to resentments and destroyed my friendships. Someone always seems to get hurt.

I'm at a point in my life where I just can't do relationships. Sex has just become something I associate with my dodgy past. I really fear I've become some sorta sociopath. A reasonably friendly one, but a sociopath nonetheless. Ugh! :)]]>
Polyamoury, monogamishness, non-normativity, Oh My!http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=11148&Focus=357709#Comment_3577092013-09-01T03:36:32-05:002015-08-02T19:40:26-05:00Nygaardhttp://freakangels.com/whitechapel/account.php?u=431
I'm extremely wary of considering sexuality as "lifestyle" - that kind of thing can become coercive without even intending to be. A well meant self-help book can easily turn into a Book of ...
I suspect that almost any arrangement for having your bits rubbed the way you like can be made to work, if you can cook up a language that works for it. My experience of open relationships - supplemented by some discreet asking around - leads me to think there's a lot of sexual strangeness going on which people simply don't know the words to talk about. I see the attractions of taking cues from other people with similar arrangements, but all in all, I think I'll try to defend the hard and thorny road of mostly working things out by yourselves.

The emotional stakes, and the security stakes are so high, or maybe just really unpredictable, when it comes to sex. For relationships to work, we need to work out ways to communicate not just what we want, but a whole bunch of interpersonal power-related things which sounds really BDSM-y when you get down to the gritty details. Stakes - what do we want out of this particular interaction, and what will we lose if one of us gives up this whole thing? What strategies for getting your way are allowed and not? To get along and make each other happy we all dominate - and we all submit - from time to time. And while we all, in theory, speak the same language, the strategy to elicit submission or dominance that works for one person will cause another person to use the metaphorical safeword and walk away. I really believe every new configuration of people need to work out their own language, their own unique configuration that lets us get along.]]>
Polyamoury, monogamishness, non-normativity, Oh My!http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=11148&Focus=357711#Comment_3577112013-09-01T03:56:03-05:002015-08-02T19:40:26-05:00oldhathttp://freakangels.com/whitechapel/account.php?u=75
And Oddcult's on a break for a bit so he can cool off.
Similar boring crap will be dealt with the same, except there will be very little warning.
Similar boring crap will be dealt with the same, except there will be very little warning.]]>
Polyamoury, monogamishness, non-normativity, Oh My!http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=11148&Focus=357716#Comment_3577162013-09-01T05:28:00-05:002015-08-02T19:40:26-05:00Cat Vincenthttp://freakangels.com/whitechapel/account.php?u=447
@Nygaard:
"while we all, in theory, speak the same language..." That's it in a nutshell. It's only ever in theory. Even if we're not talking about emotional abstracts, like "what do ...
"while we all, in theory, speak the same language..." That's it in a nutshell. It's only ever in theory. Even if we're not talking about emotional abstracts, like "what do you mean when you say you love me?", it's problematic.

Take the phrase "I'm a bit kinky." The spectrum there can go from "I like it with the lights on" to "I have a wide range of taboo paraphilias". This is where that whole communication thing comes into play, and it's difficult... even between people who are more-or-less on the same page.

I'm incredibly lucky to have a lover of 19 years standing who's not just compatible with me in terms of what kinks we enjoy, but is also just as keen as me on talking about sex in general. And even we fuck up on the comms sometimes. Over the years, we've at least left the embarrassment stage (mostly) far behind, though... and when you're with a new partner (actual or prospective), that's a hard one to overcome.

Our culture has made talking about sex a minefield, frankly - between holdovers of Judaeo-Christian taboos, schoolyard sniggering, the (vitally important, often badly handled) issues of feminism and patriarchal codes and the commercialization of desire, it's a wonder we can talk about this at all!]]>
Polyamoury, monogamishness, non-normativity, Oh My!http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=11148&Focus=357719#Comment_3577192013-09-01T05:36:07-05:002015-08-02T19:40:26-05:00fleckyhttp://freakangels.com/whitechapel/account.php?u=8949
@oldhat: Duly noted. I really need a cigarette after reading most of this thread.
Polyamoury, monogamishness, non-normativity, Oh My!http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=11148&Focus=357721#Comment_3577212013-09-01T06:45:27-05:002015-08-02T19:40:26-05:00Magnulushttp://freakangels.com/whitechapel/account.php?u=6716
We definitely all need to find a way that relationships work for US PERSONALLY. There's no one true way to do it, and even "poly" and "mono" - while useful shorthand terms - are ...
We all work out our own agreements in our own relationships and we can call it whatever the shit we like as long as everyone AGREES on what's happening. Often, you have to give in order to receive, that's what compromise is, and a successful long-term relationship will see a lot of compromise happen. Sometimes, when we're talking potential deal breakers like poly and mono, both sides have to ask themselves whether their (potential) partner is worth the price of admission. Perhaps you would hash out a deal to go one way or the other for about six months and through that period of time you discuss how it's working and how it's not working, and you can hash out a new deal (or agree to break it off) as you approach a "milestone" like six months or a year.

Being "sexually compatible" is incredibly important to me, though. I'm not sure I could be with someone who was not happy with any degree of openness in the relationship at this point. We need to be able to find some kind of agreement (and I'm emphasising agreement to differentiate it fully from coercion, force or manipulation.) that serves both of us to some extent, otherwise I can't see it working. I was lucky that my wife and me evolved pretty much along the same lines throughout our relationship (maybe because we talk about absolutely everything, maybe not).

Compromise is one thing, but me giving up that entire aspect of my sexuality is not a compromise, that's an imbalance. Either, it means I lose all control and will constantly be ceding to her demands on this, OR I could end up with that "give" as this one thing I have hanging over her so I could use it to unbalance other sides of the relationship by bringing that up whenever there's a disagreement (That wouldn't happen, because I'm not manipulative like that, but I know many people who WOULD have use that for all it's worth)]]>
Polyamoury, monogamishness, non-normativity, Oh My!http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=11148&Focus=357731#Comment_3577312013-09-01T09:02:26-05:002015-08-02T19:40:26-05:00John Skylarhttp://freakangels.com/whitechapel/account.php?u=8976
Is it gonna be kosher to talk about societal discrimination against poly people, or has this discussion got too real for that to be okay/not boring?
Polyamoury, monogamishness, non-normativity, Oh My!http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=11148&Focus=357735#Comment_3577352013-09-01T09:31:23-05:002013-09-01T09:47:30-05:00oldhathttp://freakangels.com/whitechapel/account.php?u=75
Even though I think it's actually being discussed, I think it's fine to talk about societal discrimination against all forms of related stuff (I'll be speaking a bit on being monogamous and ...
Meaning that all people, regardless of preference, are not alike. So please keep that in mind.

@flecky, I need a fucking carton.]]>
Polyamoury, monogamishness, non-normativity, Oh My!http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=11148&Focus=357737#Comment_3577372013-09-01T09:51:58-05:002015-08-02T19:40:26-05:00curbhttp://freakangels.com/whitechapel/account.php?u=1334
Reading everyone's posts with interest. Thanks for sharing, all.
From my experience of poly-type relationships, a few more rules and boundaries, or different rules at least, might have helped. I ...
From my experience of poly-type relationships, a few more rules and boundaries, or different rules at least, might have helped. I don't even know if I'd count what I was involved in as a poly relationship, as for me that term conotes levels of responsibility, care and consideration that were largely lacking from the arrangement I found myself in during my mid twenties. Anyway, without wanting to get into too much detail, for brevity's sake as much as anything, I was for a few months in some kind of BDSM relationship with a girl, her husband, and his girlfriend. It ended badly for me, due to not a single one of us having the same expectations about what was acceptable, what was permissable, and what the other participants wanted. Not to mention way too many drugs. Anyway, in hindsight I can see that a few frank conversations early on would have helped. As others have said, communication is important.

These days, I'm in a strictly mono relationship, and that is a ok with me. I'm not saying I'd never consider a different arrangement with a different partner in future, but that's not how this relationship is wired. I hope I never have to consider alternatives, because that would mean this relationship had ended, which would probably crush me. Of course I occasionally find other people attractive, and there are things that under other circumstances I'd like to try, but there's nothing I'd trade for what I have now. But of course, that's just like, my opinion, man.]]>
Polyamoury, monogamishness, non-normativity, Oh My!http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=11148&Focus=357740#Comment_3577402013-09-01T10:27:05-05:002015-08-02T19:40:26-05:00John Skylarhttp://freakangels.com/whitechapel/account.php?u=8976
Of course.
What I wanted to mention--because this speaks to my own experience--is the way that society-at-large demonizes polyamory beyond all recognition. Of course, it also demonizes ...
What I wanted to mention--because this speaks to my own experience--is the way that society-at-large demonizes polyamory beyond all recognition. Of course, it also demonizes asexuality, which is another can of worms.

But specifically, when I was thinking about whether I would continue living my life according to my polyamorous drives, one of the things that pushed me in a more mainstream direction was that poly networks with kids have a trend of having those kids taken away when CPS finds out about their lifestyle. I...have issues with that. Ones that go beyond the lack of social acceptance, which also frustrates me, but is nothing compared to this.]]>
Polyamoury, monogamishness, non-normativity, Oh My!http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=11148&Focus=357742#Comment_3577422013-09-01T10:59:47-05:002015-08-02T19:40:26-05:00Magnulushttp://freakangels.com/whitechapel/account.php?u=6716
Yeah, legislation around parenting is incredibly sex-negative, despite the fact that children brought up in successful (not necessarily ever-lasting, but conscientiously and respectfully conducted) ...
curb: Shit, that sucks balls. I'm sorry you had to go through that. One thing that some forget about but which is incredibly important is that guest stars/ secondaries/ squeezes need exactly the same amount of respect and consideration that the "core" people of the relationship give each other.]]>
Polyamoury, monogamishness, non-normativity, Oh My!http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=11148&Focus=357747#Comment_3577472013-09-01T11:25:53-05:002015-08-02T19:40:26-05:00curbhttp://freakangels.com/whitechapel/account.php?u=1334
Aw, you're a kind gent! Thankfully I seem to have gotten away relatively unscathed :)
Polyamoury, monogamishness, non-normativity, Oh My!http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=11148&Focus=357756#Comment_3577562013-09-01T14:55:51-05:002015-08-02T19:40:26-05:00allanahttp://freakangels.com/whitechapel/account.php?u=4019
I don't think I've ever felt "demonized" or anthing like that. It's a thing to be tiptoed around, sure, mostly because any talk of sexual interest is a subject entered lightly upon. And ...
I'm sure Big Love and other Mormon-style poly representations aren't doing too many favours -- how about portraying adults that choose it intentionally, instead of doing it out of a sense of tradition? I want more "by design" representations. Maybe even some absurd sit-com scenarios would help, since it could probably still be done in a way that educates and covers genuine recurring problems. [Then again, all sit-coms are about absurd miscommunications anyways.]]]>
Polyamoury, monogamishness, non-normativity, Oh My!http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=11148&Focus=357757#Comment_3577572013-09-01T15:20:53-05:002015-08-02T19:40:26-05:00Magnulushttp://freakangels.com/whitechapel/account.php?u=6716
A friend of mine has actually just asked me to be interviewed for a documentary about poly people. I really, really want to do it but me and my wife will have to think about it, especially about ...
It's not on my side of the family, so my wife will have to make that decision ultimately, but I hope she says yes. We have nothing to be embarrassed about and feel that I/ we could show a "normalised" and "well adjusted" face forward. I'm not worried about my career, as it's not like I'm going on there and talking about my conquests and showing them my sex toys (I hardly even HAVE any. How embarrassing would THAT be?! "So... uh... this is my massager... And, uh. This is lube." I'd be focusing on the same kinds of things I have here, not the "nitty gritty" details.

What do you guys think? Should I do it? What do you think I should avoid talking about if I do it, what would you like me to touch on specifically? (I'm just mining you for ideas. Exploiting my friends. It's what I do.)]]>
Polyamoury, monogamishness, non-normativity, Oh My!http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=11148&Focus=357766#Comment_3577662013-09-01T19:44:22-05:002015-08-02T19:40:26-05:00ebullientsoulhttp://freakangels.com/whitechapel/account.php?u=7705
I would to think I am supportive of other people's lifestyles, but I am horribly conservative in mine.
I cannot bear my doubts.
I cannot bear my doubts.]]>
Polyamoury, monogamishness, non-normativity, Oh My!http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=11148&Focus=357771#Comment_3577712013-09-01T21:35:06-05:002015-08-02T19:40:26-05:00James Cunninghamhttp://freakangels.com/whitechapel/account.php?u=2925
Allana- I'd love to watch a poly sitcom. Get on that. :)
Personal view- I understand polyamory a bit but my girlfriend is strictly monogamous. I've had enjoyable sex with women I consider good ...
Personal view- I understand polyamory a bit but my girlfriend is strictly monogamous. I've had enjoyable sex with women I consider good friends, neither of us needing a deeper relationship with the other and both coming away happy, but while nice it wasn't necessary, either. My current (and hopefully permanent) relationship is necessary, so it's an easy choice to make.]]>
Polyamoury, monogamishness, non-normativity, Oh My!http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=11148&Focus=357774#Comment_3577742013-09-01T23:24:16-05:002015-08-02T19:40:26-05:00Magnulushttp://freakangels.com/whitechapel/account.php?u=6716
James & Allana
I've been kicking around ideas in the abstract for a sit-com/ drama-comedy series about polyamoury, actually! There is SO MUCH STUFF that can happen, and - unlike a lot of ...
James & Allana

I've been kicking around ideas in the abstract for a sit-com/ drama-comedy series about polyamoury, actually! There is SO MUCH STUFF that can happen, and - unlike a lot of sitcoms and comedies - your characters don't have to be complete morons to make massive mistakes! :D]]>
Polyamoury, monogamishness, non-normativity, Oh My!http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=11148&Focus=357775#Comment_3577752013-09-02T00:29:14-05:002015-08-02T19:40:26-05:00Littlepurplegothhttp://freakangels.com/whitechapel/account.php?u=10699
Friend or not Magnulus, find out which production company, who the producer, director are etc. and have a media plan in place knowing what you would do if xx happened, before either of you agree. Any ...
professional advice (press officer hat here, this sort of doc. is always treated as crisis management) would be to say no. Heck, with some of the stuff I've experienced in this sort of production, my personal advice is to say no. I'd make an exception for a straight up, face to camera, interview for academic research purposes. that's about it.

Poly sit com/drama... I'd love in, if this was a possibility... one of the things I've been writing this year (straight up chick lit, it aint literature, and who knows if it can be edited to be 'good') just happens to have poly. (ish) as part of the character make up. Its pretty much incidental as well. Anyway. Its something that I'm interested in exploring art-wise.

There's an advert on TV here at the moment. Female voice over - 'my husband...' 'my girlfiend...' (with a female to female kiss, shot with enough angle that you'd see lips or cheek kiss depending on your person expectation I think) '...and we...' its for insurance I think and turns out to be 'twins' in the end, but just might not be. its that last shot of the ad where they are all sat around a cafe that removes that element, sadly. but its definitely quite 'positive' in feel ...]]>
Polyamoury, monogamishness, non-normativity, Oh My!http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=11148&Focus=357778#Comment_3577782013-09-02T03:21:38-05:002015-08-02T19:40:26-05:00Cat Vincenthttp://freakangels.com/whitechapel/account.php?u=447
Magnulus touches on another of the complications of poly in a nominally mono world - there's usually several levels of "need to know" you have to navigate.
Example: trying to explain ...
Example: trying to explain why Darling Wife & I were living with another woman (and her relationship to our son) was somewhat problematic in terms of the school - not that we were under any significant risk of having the kid taken off us, but it terms of why partner 3 could be trusted to collect son from school if she wasn't a relative, stuff like that. And then there's how much you trust acquaintances with the information... we ended up running different edited versions of our life story and keeping track of them was an annoyance, and (since I was legally married to Partner 3 at the time) had an unpleasant side-effect of negating now-Darling-Wife's value in others' eyes.]]>
Polyamoury, monogamishness, non-normativity, Oh My!http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=11148&Focus=357779#Comment_3577792013-09-02T03:55:23-05:002013-09-02T11:10:08-05:00Vornaskottihttp://freakangels.com/whitechapel/account.php?u=6665
Jealousy seems to be one of the missing pieces in my mental toolkit. I was living in an open relationship for over a decade, almost ending up in some sort of poly stuff, but then people moved around ...
After the relationship status change a year and a half ago, I orbited one poly situation a bit last year, and I found it a bit surprising to find myself thinking that it sounded a bit too cumbersome. Not because of any jealousy or ownership issues, but just because of a degree of social exhaustion that made me think Too Many People.

The current relationship is monogamous and I'm a bit surprised that I don't feel any need to really open it up. I'm happy as things are now. If the other party would want, I wouldn't mind giving her permission to go on adventures, but although I of course have the occasional infatuation, I find myself having zero need to do anything at all about them.

Guess I'm all settled down then :)]]>
Polyamoury, monogamishness, non-normativity, Oh My!http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=11148&Focus=357780#Comment_3577802013-09-02T04:53:13-05:002015-08-02T19:40:26-05:00sellmeyoursoulhttp://freakangels.com/whitechapel/account.php?u=9518
Magnulus, I guess a lot of it depends on how bad the worst case scenario is. It's kind of like putting things up on the internet (in that it will invariably end up on the internet), once it's out ...
Littlepurplegoth has some good points. What sort of say do you have and how much trust in the production company? Can you be removed if they decide to cut the interview in such a way that everything is taken out of context? Does your friend (who you presumably trust) have final cut? Will they send you the questions ahead of time so that you can prepare your answers or even decide if you want to be on camera saying "I don't feel comfortable talking about that?"

It looks like my initial reaction is a negative one. But if you do it, let us know what it's called so we can track it down and be all like "hey, I internet-know that guy!"]]>
Polyamoury, monogamishness, non-normativity, Oh My!http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=11148&Focus=357781#Comment_3577812013-09-02T06:05:00-05:002015-08-02T19:40:26-05:00Magnulushttp://freakangels.com/whitechapel/account.php?u=6716
I've flagged up some of those concerns to her, though one thing that should be added is that she is a good friend of a mutual poly friend (through whom we met) and she is ALSO in an open relationship ...
Polyamoury, monogamishness, non-normativity, Oh My!http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=11148&Focus=357785#Comment_3577852013-09-02T06:30:05-05:002013-09-02T06:30:21-05:00Vornaskottihttp://freakangels.com/whitechapel/account.php?u=6665
Oh, I'll definitely second listening to Dan Savage's Savage Lovecast and reading the columns. For a bunch of people I've known and met they've been a great eye opener in one way or another, and ...
Savage Lovecast and reading the columns. For a bunch of people I've known and met they've been a great eye opener in one way or another, and usually for the good. Not necessarily about poly/monogamish stuff, but generally to be more accepting with the kinds of their own or others. Sex at Dawn is also definitely worth a read, the only piece of evolutionary psychology dealing with human sexuality that seemed to have some sense in there.]]>
Polyamoury, monogamishness, non-normativity, Oh My!http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=11148&Focus=357786#Comment_3577862013-09-02T06:54:18-05:002013-09-02T06:56:41-05:00mister hexhttp://freakangels.com/whitechapel/account.php?u=4411
My thoughts may be summed up thusly - Polamory is not for me. Y'all do whatever you feel is right for you, as long as you're not in a relationship with me. Not being judgmental, just honest.
I'm ...
I'm currently in a relationship, my first in seven years. We had a discussion on our like second date that brought up and dismissed the concept of polamory. Neither one of us is interested in it.

That said, she has pointed out to me when other women are checking me out/flirting with me. I usually never notice.

EDIT TO ADD - I've been "cheated on" in the past and it sucks, really bad. It sucks worse when they say "Well, I thought you knew I was a free spirit and can't be tied down to one man." NO, I DID NOT KNOW THAT and if you were such a great "open communicator", there would have been no question.]]>
Polyamoury, monogamishness, non-normativity, Oh My!http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=11148&Focus=357792#Comment_3577922013-09-02T08:48:45-05:002013-09-02T08:49:11-05:00Cat Vincenthttp://freakangels.com/whitechapel/account.php?u=447
@mister hex:
Whatever works an' it harm none, mate.
"Cheated on" is an unpleasant feeling... and an awful lot of poly communication is about trying to avoid that, I think. There's a ...
Whatever works an' it harm none, mate.

"Cheated on" is an unpleasant feeling... and an awful lot of poly communication is about trying to avoid that, I think. There's a world of difference between "I didn't know the rules because you didn't bloody tell me them" and "we negotiated the rules and you went and broke them anyway" (which can happen in even the best poly situation).]]>
Polyamoury, monogamishness, non-normativity, Oh My!http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=11148&Focus=357798#Comment_3577982013-09-02T11:03:41-05:002015-08-02T19:40:26-05:00tapheadhttp://freakangels.com/whitechapel/account.php?u=2284
Wow, awesome stuff here, people!
I'm not sure if I have anything new to add, apart from my personal history.
Basically my first girlfriend and I immediately fell into cohabitation, and after a ...
I'm not sure if I have anything new to add, apart from my personal history.

Basically my first girlfriend and I immediately fell into cohabitation, and after a few years it became clear that we weren't exactly monogamous. It wasn't really a regular feature in our relationship until 7 years into the thing, when I and a friend of mine had apparently at some point fallen in love. My girlfriend's first suggestion (bless her heart) was for me and this friend to go on a date.

That turned into a 7-year long poly relationship, the last 5 (?) of which were spent under the same roof, and which ended about 2 and and a half years ago. We were never a proper triad, but a rather wide V, with me (obviously) being the hinge.

I do think that (despite 7 years being a really fucking good run) the whole thing kinda collapsed due to communication. All three of us have very different ways of communicating, and they never really cohered. For example I've (only this summer) realised I'm actually rather crap at communicating romantic interest or emotional mindset or (god forbid) my sexual preferences in Finnish. (As it turns out, I do make a great Fake Canadian, though, but that's another story for another thread.)

Logistics-wise we had a pretty simple system of me spending alternate nights in the two bedrooms, with veto rights for all concerned.

I do think that in the interest of full disclosure I will keep telling any potential future romantic partners that yes, that was how I spent a good number of years, and yes, I will possibly fall in love with more than just one person at a time, but no, that does not in any way lessen the depth of those feelings in any of the cases. (I could in fact argue for the opposite.)

Anyhoo, brilliant thread, this. <3]]>
Polyamoury, monogamishness, non-normativity, Oh My!http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=11148&Focus=357801#Comment_3578012013-09-02T12:38:10-05:002015-08-02T19:40:26-05:00Magnulushttp://freakangels.com/whitechapel/account.php?u=6716
yes, I will possibly fall in love with more than just one person at a time, but no, that does not in any way lessen the depth of those feelings in any of the cases. (I could in fact argue for the ...
yes, I will possibly fall in love with more than just one person at a time, but no, that does not in any way lessen the depth of those feelings in any of the cases. (I could in fact argue for the opposite.)

So. SO true. I find that quite contrary to love being a finite resource, it's an infinite and cumulative resource! The more you give, the more you HAVE to give, and the more you receive in return. When my wife tells me how important her latest partner has been to her, I swell, knowing that she found something in him that completed a part of her I never could. We can never be all things to our partner, it's just a physical impossibility. We complete each other in so many ways, but we're still finding that other people can give us things we can't give each other.

I guess you could say: We completed each other, but each new partner expands us and makes us MORE than we were before.]]>
Polyamoury, monogamishness, non-normativity, Oh My!http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=11148&Focus=357809#Comment_3578092013-09-02T14:43:59-05:002015-08-02T19:40:26-05:00costa_khttp://freakangels.com/whitechapel/account.php?u=6592
I can barely manage to balance my workloads, how the hell does anyone balance having sex with more than one person at a time?
A quote I heard from an old newsclip I saw (Judas Priest fans being ...
A quote I heard from an old newsclip I saw (Judas Priest fans being interviewed on the street after Rob Halford came out)pretty much sums up my thoughts on sex; As long as you're not fucking German Shepherds or little kids, all the power to you.]]>
Polyamoury, monogamishness, non-normativity, Oh My!http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=11148&Focus=357815#Comment_3578152013-09-02T17:38:08-05:002015-08-02T19:40:26-05:00manglrhttp://freakangels.com/whitechapel/account.php?u=6038
Perhaps that's one area that a distinction should be made on...sex versus love. Speaking as someone who's been in a mono relationship for 20 plus years, but is very interested in seeing the ...
Polyamoury, monogamishness, non-normativity, Oh My!http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=11148&Focus=357831#Comment_3578312013-09-02T23:37:21-05:002015-08-02T19:40:26-05:00Vornaskottihttp://freakangels.com/whitechapel/account.php?u=6665
A topical link from the morning feed.
The short instructional manifesto for relationship anarchy
The short instructional manifesto for relationship anarchy]]>
Polyamoury, monogamishness, non-normativity, Oh My!http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=11148&Focus=357837#Comment_3578372013-09-03T02:44:42-05:002015-08-02T19:40:26-05:00Cat Vincenthttp://freakangels.com/whitechapel/account.php?u=447
@manglr:
So right. My triad started as sexual attraction, but the vast majority of it was about companionship and affection. Sex and love ain't the same thing - but when they're together...
(And ...
So right. My triad started as sexual attraction, but the vast majority of it was about companionship and affection. Sex and love ain't the same thing - but when they're together...

(And that's why it ended, too. 3rd partner slowly lost sexual interest in both of us, then her other interests focused elsewhere, she just cared less and less about us as friends and companions, and we just didn't have much in common any more.And then the ayahuasca spirit told her to dump us, but that's another story...)]]>
Polyamoury, monogamishness, non-normativity, Oh My!http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=11148&Focus=357840#Comment_3578402013-09-03T03:22:31-05:002015-08-02T19:40:26-05:00James Cunninghamhttp://freakangels.com/whitechapel/account.php?u=2925
Maybe I'm weird or overly simplistic, but if sex isn't in the picture then it's just friends. Maybe best friends, very close friends, etc, but still friends. Sex may not be The Most Important Thing ...
Polyamoury, monogamishness, non-normativity, Oh My!http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=11148&Focus=357841#Comment_3578412013-09-03T03:27:48-05:002015-08-02T19:40:26-05:00Magnulushttp://freakangels.com/whitechapel/account.php?u=6716
Me and my wife have gone through some long periods of what basically amounts to asexuality between us, but whenever we looked at that and thought "Are we just friends?!" the answer was a ...
This is the thing: To me, sex is an expression of a type of love. It's not the kind of love you necessarily build a relationship on. Romantic love is separate from sexual love, though they most often intertwine. I've never been particularly sexually interested in men, but I've been romantically interested in a few, I think... Notice I'm uncertain, because yes - it has been strange for me to feel that love without it being coupled with sexual love. I more often feel sexual love without the romantic love than vice versa...]]>
Polyamoury, monogamishness, non-normativity, Oh My!http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=11148&Focus=357842#Comment_3578422013-09-03T03:33:59-05:002013-09-03T03:36:01-05:00Littlepurplegothhttp://freakangels.com/whitechapel/account.php?u=10699
James, you see this is where I fall down. Because it doesn't have to be sex-containing, certainly not PIV or similar practises anyway. Its still a relationship, a form of intimate friendship...
A ...
A lot of folk who are 'poly' have adopted the term because its an easy descriptor for the rest of the world to use, to be able to recognise that we aren't wired in the same way as 'society' in the way we view friendships either (I have acquaintances, which is probably the point that a lot of people would say friend) and I have friends. With all friends there's an element of love or the potential for. It may or may not be 'sexual' as others would recognise it, but it could be active in some way around trust (yep. possibly kink related. maybe asexual. maybe romantic...) and it crosses genders (in my case anyway)

And I'm rambling as I'm heading out the door....]]>
Polyamoury, monogamishness, non-normativity, Oh My!http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=11148&Focus=357852#Comment_3578522013-09-03T08:25:23-05:002015-08-02T19:40:26-05:00Fishellehttp://freakangels.com/whitechapel/account.php?u=8854
A lot of my interest comes from being raised in the Mormon Church, where polygamy is sort of a thing. It doesn’t happen anymore in the mainstream sect of Mormonism, which is the one I grew up with, ...
So I spent my youth going to church and thinking about group sex and wondering if that was allowed or not. More than my youth, really. I asked a Fundamentalist Mormon woman who came as a guest speaker to a class of mine in my last semester at my university about it. She was a little offended, and said that no, they were a good ethical people and they did not do that. Which sort of made me wonder what the point of it all was, because if I had two dudes that loved me and they were close to each other and I couldn’t even consider asking them to make out while I watched I’d be pretty bummed about it.

I’m pretty limited when it comes to romantic experience. I’ve only ever really had one boyfriend, I’m still a virgin in the heteronormative sense of the word, I’ve never had a proper orgasm, and I’m cis and straight. I do know that fooling around with people outside of a solid relationship is not for me, because while that is the majority of my experience, not matter how happy the fella is in that situation I feel incredibly guilty and shitty because I’ve been using him.

But when I was in a relationship, we were both in love with other people the whole time. We talked about it a lot. We talked about those other people, and I asked my boyfriend about people he’d been with before me, and because we could talk about that stuff we could talk about anything. It was great. But he felt that he was second to this other person that was not there, and things sort of crumbled because of that. Also because I really want babies and he did not and we figured that was a big problem that would just become worse as we grew more attached. Among other reasons.

I’ve always felt that I could go either way on this, and I think my religious upbringing has quite a bit to do with that. Because although polygamy isn’t really practiced in Mormonism now, men can still be sealed to more than one wife (when their first wife dies), but women can only have one eternal husband. The whole thing where everyone has a partner after death makes things complicated, and that teaching has always come with the underling idea that there might be more than lady with the fellas, regardless of what the deal was in life. So I accepted that possibility a long time ago, when I still really believed in this stuff, even though more than one lady with my husband is less than ideal to me.

Of course, now it doesn’t matter too much because even if that was how things worked I’ll not be in heaven with an eternal marriage anyway. But it’s hard to just remove these sorts of bits of belief in a sensible way, so I still imagine that my afterlife will be a lesser kingdom where I might be able to fuck people but not have kids. But I’d be willing to bet Jim Morrison will be there with me, so I’d hardly call it Hell.

Oh God this post is terrible and must just be every kind of confusing. I’m sorry. Carry on.]]>
Polyamoury, monogamishness, non-normativity, Oh My!http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=11148&Focus=357853#Comment_3578532013-09-03T08:29:36-05:002015-08-02T19:40:26-05:00John Skylarhttp://freakangels.com/whitechapel/account.php?u=8976
@Fishelle: lovely post. Thank you for contributing. I think it is easy for those of us who have lived poly to forget that this isn't a "new" thing, that there have been polyandrous and ...
I'd like to imagine that all of our afterlives will be at a pub of our choosing. If that's a lesser kingdom, give me my crown.]]>
Polyamoury, monogamishness, non-normativity, Oh My!http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=11148&Focus=357855#Comment_3578552013-09-03T08:59:41-05:002015-08-02T19:40:26-05:00TFhttp://freakangels.com/whitechapel/account.php?u=1307
@Fishelle That was a great post
Polyamoury, monogamishness, non-normativity, Oh My!http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=11148&Focus=357867#Comment_3578672013-09-03T11:56:12-05:002015-08-02T19:40:26-05:00Cat Vincenthttp://freakangels.com/whitechapel/account.php?u=447
@Fishelle - Very grateful you posted. The more perspectives on all this, especially smart and considered ones, the better.
It must be so difficult to reconcile a religious upbringing (which, from ...
It must be so difficult to reconcile a religious upbringing (which, from the sounds of it, you still have some allegiance to on some level) with your desires. I'm always reminded of this Channel 4 documentary on gay people in Islam. The bit that puzzles me (no doubt because I was raised in the wishy-washiest version of Church of England possible) is; if you've managed to question your sexuality, why don't you apply the same to the details of your faith?

Clearly you have and are, and I salute you for it.]]>
Polyamoury, monogamishness, non-normativity, Oh My!http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=11148&Focus=357869#Comment_3578692013-09-03T12:16:25-05:002015-08-02T19:40:26-05:00razrangelhttp://freakangels.com/whitechapel/account.php?u=2075
@Fishelle - thank you so much for that thoughtful look at your religion. It's been a matter I've been curious about but never dared ask any Mormon friends (and ex-Mormons seem to be in a big hurry ...
Polyamoury, monogamishness, non-normativity, Oh My!http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=11148&Focus=357892#Comment_3578922013-09-03T20:57:25-05:002015-08-02T19:40:26-05:00allanahttp://freakangels.com/whitechapel/account.php?u=4019
I brought up some televised depictions of Mormonism before, and while I describe them as inaccurate at showing open relationships as a lifestyle choice I really have no idea how accurate they are at ...
Polyamoury, monogamishness, non-normativity, Oh My!http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=11148&Focus=357893#Comment_3578932013-09-03T21:02:28-05:002015-08-02T19:40:26-05:00allanahttp://freakangels.com/whitechapel/account.php?u=4019
PS totally on your page about the group sex. Would never have occurred to me to ask that, though.
There must be a culture that supports explicit polyandry, but I can't think of one offhand. I'd ...
There must be a culture that supports explicit polyandry, but I can't think of one offhand. I'd like to know if it would have the same aspects of coercion that we tend to associate with the forced marriage of underage females.]]>
Polyamoury, monogamishness, non-normativity, Oh My!http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=11148&Focus=357897#Comment_3578972013-09-03T21:57:19-05:002013-09-03T21:58:03-05:00Vornaskottihttp://freakangels.com/whitechapel/account.php?u=6665
allana:
There are some, especially around China/Tibet/Nepal areas, but they've been stomped hard by the governments promoting "healthy and non-deviant" lifestyles. Historically it's been ...
There are some, especially around China/Tibet/Nepal areas, but they've been stomped hard by the governments promoting "healthy and non-deviant" lifestyles. Historically it's been a thing here and there. Don't know about the coercion in other ways that at least one motivator has been to avoid divvying up scarce lands and resources.]]>
Polyamoury, monogamishness, non-normativity, Oh My!http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=11148&Focus=357907#Comment_3579072013-09-04T06:18:41-05:002015-08-02T19:40:26-05:00Magnulushttp://freakangels.com/whitechapel/account.php?u=6716
Fishelle, that was a great post, thank you for that. Very enlightening. :)
Someone on FetLife posted this today:
6 THINGS I BELIEVE TO BE TRUE ABOUT BEING POLY
1. Jealousy is not something ...
Someone on FetLife posted this today:

6 THINGS I BELIEVE TO BE TRUE ABOUT BEING POLY

1. Jealousy is not something just monogamous people feel. Poly people feel it,but we try to love past it. I think the longer you are poly the easier it is. But Ithink even people who have been poly for years have that weak moment everyonce in awhile. It’s about which wolf you feed.

2. Each person who is in a poly relationship needs to feel special in their ownright. You cant just clump all your partners together and say I love you all asa family. Each person should be loved individually and for their own specialuniqueness.

3. Partners can not be treated the same. You can’t try to be completely 50/50fair and do everything with each partner because each partner is different andhas different needs. To just arbitrarily do the same things with each partnerdoes not do any of the relationships justice.

4. Every person in a poly relationship needs to be 100% honest with theirfeelings, with whom they are seeing, and with everything they can be honestabout. If you lie about who you are seeing and what you are feeling than youare cheating and that’s not fair.

5. Most of the time that you are spending with each partner should be devotedto that partner. If you are talking about or texting your other partners thewhole time you are with a partner, you are stealing time from that partner andthat is not fair.

6. You should keep in fairly consistent contact with each partner. No oneshould feel ignored or forgotten. If you say you are going to be there or dosomething with a particular person, then you should do that. If one partnerinvites you to an event, you should ask if its okay before you invite another.

Thought I'd share, because there's a lot of truth and good advice in there. Also, it puts a bit of focus on how complex these relations are.]]>
Polyamoury, monogamishness, non-normativity, Oh My!http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=11148&Focus=357911#Comment_3579112013-09-04T07:30:48-05:002015-08-02T19:40:26-05:00John Skylarhttp://freakangels.com/whitechapel/account.php?u=8976
If I were to codify my, uh,...poly-cies...that would fit them pretty well.
Polyamoury, monogamishness, non-normativity, Oh My!http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=11148&Focus=357931#Comment_3579312013-09-05T01:59:17-05:002013-09-05T02:16:57-05:00Rachæl Tyrellhttp://freakangels.com/whitechapel/account.php?u=552
I've been thinking a lot about this lately.
I'm not a jealous person, never have been. (I shocked my friends when at 14 I tried to find ways to help out the guy I'd had a crush on for years to win ...
I'm not a jealous person, never have been. (I shocked my friends when at 14 I tried to find ways to help out the guy I'd had a crush on for years to win over the lady he was interested in.) I have always thought that everyone had their own relationships with each other. I suppose this was well fostered by hanging out with musicians in my late teens and early twenties, since those guys may as well be fucking each other for all the fighting that goes on in intra-band relationships. My best friend at that time and I had a number of fellows in common in that crew of musicians; with some she was the primary and I was the occasional abberation, and with some I was the emotional connection while she was the raw sexual.

I've been thinking about this notion of having an open relationship, and I think the nature of it, which seems to get bogged down in this conversation we are all having, is about being OPEN. That's what it boils down to.

Most of my relationships have been in-between type things, without official title. I suppose that would be considered "open." I've never wanted anyone to be with me unless they WANTED to, and sexual fidelity, to me, doesn't mean much if the intent isn't there. Being with only one person for forever is only meaningful if both parties want to be there. If one wants to stray, then the nature of that relationship should be addressed, and probably altered. I prefer all parties to be OPEN about what it is that they are feeling and wanting.

Personally, the only times I've been hurt is when someone "cheats" without telling me. If it was something unexpected that happened one drunken night, ok, I get it, that happens. As long as I'm told. If someone is interested in someone, is actively spending time with someone else and keeps that a secret, that is what hurts me. That hurt is regardless of sex, though if sex is involved the pain might be more severe, but only because that implies a further bond that I was kept in the dark about.

Of course, the notion of STDs is important as well. I have my tubes tied, so when I have a consistent partner, I prefer for us both to be tested and (assuming we both come up clean) not have to worry about condoms. For a mate to have other partners, I'd have to know that condoms were used with others, and maybe start using them in our own unit.

At the moment, I'm considering discussing the idea of having an open relationship with my current fellow, for a few reasons that aren't only sexual. There is the sex aspect, because I'm so often sick and hurting, and I don't feel I am sexual as often as is fair to my partner. Also, there are certain kinks that he's not as into, and while he'd indulge me, there is something to be said to be with someone who is totally THERE with you. And also, there's just the emotional. I don't limit myself, and I don't assume that one person is going to provide me with everything that I need emotionally. This also has to do with being ill. I'm a bit of a handful. It's a lot to expect one person to be the psychological/emotional support AND provide the dominance that I prefer. I am not sure, however, that finding the dominant person as a secondary is the kind of balance that would ever end up working out.

I'm not entirely sure where I am at with this right now, because I am pretty prone to relationship claustrophobia, and separating that fear of connection to my own legitimate desires can be difficult. Especially since we spend almost all of our time together. I think it might be easier to distinguish if I had a more vibrant and close knit friend circle. But.... I just know that as perfect as my fellow is, I don't feel like I'm done exploring and experiencing.

I think that the general consensus here is that open relationships are usually sought after because of wanting an intimate CONNECTION with others, not just a roll in the hay.]]>
Polyamoury, monogamishness, non-normativity, Oh My!http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=11148&Focus=357932#Comment_3579322013-09-05T02:24:53-05:002015-08-02T19:40:26-05:00Magnulushttp://freakangels.com/whitechapel/account.php?u=6716
Rachæl
Personally, the only times I've been hurt is when someone "cheats" without telling me. If it was something unexpected that happened one drunken night, ok, I get it, that happens. ...

Personally, the only times I've been hurt is when someone "cheats" without telling me. If it was something unexpected that happened one drunken night, ok, I get it, that happens. As long as I'm told. If someone is interested in someone, is actively spending time with someone else and keeps that a secret, that is what hurts me. That hurt is regardless of sex, though if sex is involved the pain might be more severe, but only because that implies a further bond that I was kept in the dark about.

Yes! This! Cheating is still bad, and even ESPECIALLY bad when they have your PERMISSION to have sex (and relationships) with others. Someone I was seeing earlier this year (I was hoping we'd be seeing each other still, but I was constantly at the bottom of her list of priorities, so I didn't want to deal with that any longer) had her ex-husband cheat on her despite the fact that they had an open relationship. It's not about the third person, it's about the lies.]]>
Polyamoury, monogamishness, non-normativity, Oh My!http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=11148&Focus=357952#Comment_3579522013-09-05T14:03:31-05:002013-09-05T14:04:25-05:00Doc Ocassihttp://freakangels.com/whitechapel/account.php?u=410
Finally, a longer post.
So history, my first proper girlfriend was really entered into, on my part, because I thought that is what you do. finally when I didn't trust her - she attempted to poison ...
So history, my first proper girlfriend was really entered into, on my part, because I thought that is what you do. finally when I didn't trust her - she attempted to poison a relationship with a friend who I trusted more than her - I broke it off, it went from bad to worse and a little scary. All my relationships after that ended very very well and I would go so far as to say that I could probably have lived the rest of my life in the company of all of them. An interesting thing I do notice about all of them is that all these relationships started with a known end date.

I have no real desire to have someone in my life to that extent, and I find sex, though enjoyable in practise, I'd rather talk to someone, learn something or create something, I feel I have a lot I want to do, and my drive to jump in the sack with someone is just not there, I can very easily choose not to do it. Not to say I haven't.

As I said previously I haven't had a relationship for more than a decade, although I have slept with women, though never had intercourse, just fooled around, generally these events have been me testing the waters, with help from my animalistic sexual urges, afterwards I don't get what I am missing, I really don't get it.

I understand that there is more to a relationship than sex, in the sharing of your life with another person, someone who your consciousness with merge, play and bond with, this can be multiple people or one other, maybe I am missing that, though I treat all my friends like this. I am getting a little lost thinking about this stuff, I am not sure how to think about this.

my preference to not have these relationships doesn't come up in conversation much, but it does happen when someone is interested in me and I find them interesting but don't want more of a relationship, this has caused some frustration when attempting to explain my situation to them. It has been interpreted as a slight on the aesthetic of the other party, and a knock to the self esteem, which is so not true, I am a lot more interested in what is going on in peoples heads.

I have found that some mono-people, definitely no all, have the biggest problem with my standpoint even the very intelligent ones, I guess because they are generally not so open to alternatives then poly-people, the monos who have an problem with this assume I have not found 'that' person yet and I should just keep looking, TBH I find that attitude slightly condescending, I am aware of the fact I may find someone, 'settle down' or whatever that means, but I have found people that I could have lived my life with, I just chose otherwise, and I just don't get what I am looking for.

anyway that is my bit, comments are welcome.]]>
Polyamoury, monogamishness, non-normativity, Oh My!http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=11148&Focus=357964#Comment_3579642013-09-05T15:25:58-05:002015-08-02T19:40:26-05:00Magnulushttp://freakangels.com/whitechapel/account.php?u=6716
There is DEFINITELY a huge bias toward the idea of Coupling. We have to find our Better Half, because we're not Complete without a Mate. If you say you're enjoying being single and the freedom it ...
I think especially as we move forward and the Need To Procreate is becoming less and less pressing for a lot of us - and communication technology becomes more and more helpful - we're going to see more and more people living out their lives happily single, though they might well have extensive networks of close friends and acquaintances.]]>
Polyamoury, monogamishness, non-normativity, Oh My!http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=11148&Focus=357973#Comment_3579732013-09-06T02:13:53-05:002015-08-02T19:40:26-05:00RenThinghttp://freakangels.com/whitechapel/account.php?u=155
Heh, my wife, when she was still my fiance, asked me if she was "the One". I told her she was "A One". She looked a little bit shocked and I said, "Hey, seven billion people ...
A One". She looked a little bit shocked and I said, "Hey, seven billion people on this rock,half of them abouts are female, chances are there's at least a handful of other women in the world who'd want me." Thankfully, she grokked that and took it for the joke I meant it as.

My wife and I are monogamousish. I'm poly and when I got together with her I was in a threesome with another couple that mostly revolved around kink. My wife, at the time, wasn't very comfortable with it and so when the couple ended up splitting we decided to call it good between the three of us. Since we've gotten married she's relaxed a bit. She was what is called a list which is basically a group of women who she is friends with who I'm interested in that she feels is safe. There's also a woman who we're both interested in and the three of us get along well.]]>
Polyamoury, monogamishness, non-normativity, Oh My!http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=11148&Focus=357977#Comment_3579772013-09-06T06:12:56-05:002015-08-02T19:40:26-05:00Jason A. Questhttp://freakangels.com/whitechapel/account.php?u=5192
The idea that there is "the One" for anyone seems toxic to me. It would mean that someone like me – who found someone, then lost him – is out of luck and should just plan on being ...
isn't a perfect match (and guess what: that's everyone), it means you got the "the Wrong One" and should dump them to resume looking. No. Some people are better matches than others, meeting different needs/wants. Rather than looking for one person who can be everything for you, you should look for whatever people meet as many of your needs as possible, and that you can help do the same for them. I know people who've found one person who does most of that for them, but they still look to other people for some things, whether it's social, emotional, sexual, whatever. My girlfriend didn't like Indian food or comix so I shared those enjoyments with other people. My later boyfriend didn't care for bondage or recreational drugs, but he was OK with me doing those without him.]]>
Polyamoury, monogamishness, non-normativity, Oh My!http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=11148&Focus=358033#Comment_3580332013-09-06T19:29:16-05:002015-08-02T19:40:26-05:00Fishellehttp://freakangels.com/whitechapel/account.php?u=8854
Thanks for the response to my last post on the thread. I'm glad I helped answer questions rather than adding more, which is always what I worry I'm doing when I talk about that sort of ...
@allana I'm afraid I don't really know any great resources to send you to. I know what I do through seminary classes in high school and attending church actively all my life (even now as a nonbeliever), as well as various things from the Internet. A lot of what's online about Mormonism is unfortunate heavy handed propaganda, both for and against the church. I like the Young Mormon Feminists group, but that might not be of interest to you particularly.

In my life, I've gotten a lot of pressure from church culture and my parents to marry early and start a family as soon as possible. While this is problematic, it has led to a lot of pulpit talk about how people shouldn't expect to find their other half, but rather make the relationship you have work no matter what. While this is great, I also worry about the other extreme, that I might end up like my parents one day, constantly at my partner's throat, bickering and attacking them, but holding on because a commitment was made. It may be a loose connection to the discussion on coupling to this, but I am curious to know if people think polyamorous relationships work in a different way than monogamous ones when things go wrong. Or rather, what are the differences? Related, has anyone had problems where you try to fix a broken relationship through polyamory?]]>
Polyamoury, monogamishness, non-normativity, Oh My!http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=11148&Focus=358034#Comment_3580342013-09-06T19:49:26-05:002015-08-02T19:40:26-05:00oldhathttp://freakangels.com/whitechapel/account.php?u=75
In my life, I've gotten a lot of pressure from church culture and my parents to marry early and start a family as soon as possible. While this is problematic, it has led to a lot of pulpit talk about ...
In my life, I've gotten a lot of pressure from church culture and my parents to marry early and start a family as soon as possible. While this is problematic, it has led to a lot of pulpit talk about how people shouldn't expect to find their other half, but rather make the relationship you have work no matter what.

That happens a lot in non-religious culture as well. Most people around me got it hammered in to them that they should be married by 25 at the latest and by 30-31 have a kid.

Interestingly enough, I've found that the people I know that got married in their early 20s are getting divorced in their 30s (aside from a few who hey, I wish luck).]]>
Polyamoury, monogamishness, non-normativity, Oh My!http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=11148&Focus=358038#Comment_3580382013-09-07T01:16:24-05:002015-08-02T19:40:26-05:00glukkakehttp://freakangels.com/whitechapel/account.php?u=1693
Aye, if I was in a relationship with someone for over 2 years, my mother would start poking me about getting married. She was the sort who espoused that I should be able to financially support myself ...

Most people will suggest to not open your relationship up if it's on the rocks - and I'm assuming it's going poorly not because one person has a devastating need to explore their poly side. Mostly because, I find, it means that people are seeking intimacy elsewhere, when they should be trying to reconnect with each other. Plus, bringing someone else into your toxic relationship is really unfair. I had met a couple who I was sleeping with for a very short while, who were on the verge of breaking up themselves, and found they were using me to avoid talking with each other, instead putting me awkwardly in the middle, sometimes so one could have a second person to gang up on the third. No. Nonononononono.

On the other hand, one time someone I was vaguely seeing on the side for a long while (with partner's full awareness) dumped me. And I struggled where I was a tiny bit heartbroken and pouted over the whole thing. I got the 'we'll still be friends' bit, but it's just not the same and I am sad for that loss of special intimacy with them. But everyone told me "well, you still have Primary so why are you upset?" and then changed the subject on me. And it made me feel greedy and selfish about the whole thing even though I know I have the right to be upset over anything I want. Which is basically how he felt and while he's supportive, it didn't insulate me from the heartbreak I still felt.

I do, however, have *extremely* limited experience, so I'd love to hear the others'.]]>
Polyamoury, monogamishness, non-normativity, Oh My!http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=11148&Focus=358067#Comment_3580672013-09-07T18:18:40-05:002015-08-02T19:40:26-05:00RenThinghttp://freakangels.com/whitechapel/account.php?u=155
"Most people will suggest to not open your relationship up if it's on the rocks"
Back in the days of Livejournal, I was a member of the polyamory comm and once said, "Don't build an ...
Back in the days of Livejournal, I was a member of the polyamory comm and once said, "Don't build an addition to the house if the foundation is faulty." A frequent tag to posts was "Relationship broken, add more people."]]>
Polyamoury, monogamishness, non-normativity, Oh My!http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=11148&Focus=358072#Comment_3580722013-09-08T03:12:36-05:002013-09-08T03:13:21-05:00Magnulushttp://freakangels.com/whitechapel/account.php?u=6716
Yeah, absolutely. Tendencies to think that more people (children, lover, whatever) will fix bad relationships are both completely opposite of the truth and very unhelpful. In the case of poly, I ...
Polyamoury, monogamishness, non-normativity, Oh My!http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=11148&Focus=358097#Comment_3580972013-09-09T00:07:11-05:002015-08-02T19:40:26-05:00RenThinghttp://freakangels.com/whitechapel/account.php?u=155
@Magnulus
Often because it was, at least around the areas I grew up in. It let you try out that next monogamous partner before you gave up the security of the current one. Thankfully, I never did ...
Often because it was, at least around the areas I grew up in. It let you try out that next monogamous partner before you gave up the security of the current one. Thankfully, I never did that.]]>