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Re: Reds named 'Organization of the Year' by Baseball America

Originally Posted by REDREAD

I think Rolen has to be considered a great move.

Yep. And another thing to consider.. After the Reds won the division in 2010, there was a lot of young talent to sort out. The Reds used 2011 to sort some of that out. Now true, they possibly missed the opportunity to "sell high" on some guys, but at the same time, they didn't foolishly count on Travis Wood to be an ace going forward or make other assumptions. They kept Janish around and bought in Valdez in case Cozart fell flat on his face.

Honestly, the slower deliberate style really paid off, as opposed to grabbing every available pitcher off possible and throwing them against the wall, hoping they'd stick.

I like Scott Rolen, but the trade to acquire him doesn't look like a great move at all. The trade paid off well for a couple months immediately after the trade, but since then it has been a huge steal for the Blue Jays. I would generously consider that trade a wash for the Reds.

Re: Reds named 'Organization of the Year' by Baseball America

Originally Posted by AtomicDumpling

I like Scott Rolen, but the trade to acquire him doesn't look like a great move at all. The trade paid off well for a couple months immediately after the trade, but since then it has been a huge steal for the Blue Jays. I would generously consider that trade a wash for the Reds.

I am tempted to agree, but then....

then I look at the ....elan with which the reds have played defense since that trade, the pride that not just the thirdbasmen, but all the players seem to take in what they do with the leather.

That doesn't happen with Edwin here. I think Rolen was more valuable to the organization than his hitting line shows.

"Even a bad day at the ballpark beats the snot out of most other good days. I'll take my scorecard and pencil and beer and hot dog and rage at the dips and cheer at the highs, but I'm not ever going to stop loving this game and this team and nobody will ever take that away from me." Roy Tucker October 2010

Re: Reds named 'Organization of the Year' by Baseball America

Originally Posted by AtomicDumpling

I like Scott Rolen, but the trade to acquire him doesn't look like a great move at all. The trade paid off well for a couple months immediately after the trade, but since then it has been a huge steal for the Blue Jays. I would generously consider that trade a wash for the Reds.

I guess it depends on the definition of a great trade.

I am assuming you mean EdE's new found power, years later?
There's no way EdE would've been around this club long enough to blossom into that hitter (and he would've probably never blossomed here).

Rolen played a very key role in the 2010 division title. IMO, that makes it a great trade.

The way I see it, it's like the 1999 Guzman trade.. Even though we missed the playoffs, Guzman was a big contributor when we were contending.. Even though BJ Ryan had some good years for Baltimore, still a great trade for the Reds. (Baltimore fans would probably consider that a steal as well).

I guess I'm ok with both teams winning a trade.

Thank you Walt and Bob for going for it in 2010-2014!

Nov. 13, 2007: One of the greatest days in Reds history: John Allen gets the boot!

Re: Reds named 'Organization of the Year' by Baseball America

My realization over the last year has been that between Walt and his amazing staff and Dusty and his amazing staff and Bob who has enabled all these great baseball people, the Reds are really doing a great job.

I remember now the sabr crowd was all over the Reds case in 2009 when Walt was hired and he did not fully bow to the numbers. He explained there needs to be a mix. As it turns out Walt and Dusty know how to win baseball games beyond adding and subtracting numbers. Who would have thought? I mean, the Reds had been terrible for a decade.

I just think Walt and Dusty are good people that also want a good feeling among their staff and players about being a Red, winning as a Red, being rewarded as a Red, etc. It's a great group they have. And you have to spread the credit all around, as an award such as this does. I would give an elevated place, though, for the scouting department. They are the lifeblood of an organization. Although the Reds aren't considered the A's or the Ray's or the Jays (not trying to rhyme here) when it comes to the prospect game, they really should be at or near the top.

Re: Reds named 'Organization of the Year' by Baseball America

then I look at the ....elan with which the reds have played defense since that trade, the pride that not just the thirdbasmen, but all the players seem to take in what they do with the leather.

That doesn't happen with Edwin here. I think Rolen was more valuable to the organization than his hitting line shows.

Yes, Rolen's contributions go far beyond his performance on the field. If you just look at the stats then the Reds were big losers on that trade. But if you factor in Rolen's leadership I consider the trade a wash.

Re: Reds named 'Organization of the Year' by Baseball America

The Rolen trade was definitely a win. Again, go beyond the numbers. The Reds got one of the top 10 3rd basemen maybe ever.

Keppinger for Sutton was probably a loss, but I don't think they wanted his defense.

Hopper for Corky Miller was a HUGE win.

He's had a nack for vets like Nix, Gomes, Isringhausen, Cairo and others.

The Latos and Marshall trades were key.

I didn't like the inactivity in late 2010 through 2011 myself. But he didn't lose any talent, at least. And perhaps very luckily, he was able to salvage the value of Alonso despite delaying his progress. Frazier and Cozart worked out as well.

Re: Reds named 'Organization of the Year' by Baseball America

Originally Posted by AtomicDumpling

Yes, Rolen's contributions go far beyond his performance on the field. If you just look at the stats then the Reds were big losers on that trade. But if you factor in Rolen's leadership I consider the trade a wash.

Are you really trying to use 2012 for EE as a basis for a numbers argument? EE was passed on by the Reds, Jays and A's in 2009-10. He finally recovered at the plate when they moved him to a 1b/DH role. He had no place on the Reds and was quoted as saying "Thank god I'm out of here!" when he was traded.

Re: Reds named 'Organization of the Year' by Baseball America

Originally Posted by mdccclxix

My realization over the last year has been that between Walt and his amazing staff and Dusty and his amazing staff and Bob who has enabled all these great baseball people, the Reds are really doing a great job.

I remember now the sabr crowd was all over the Reds case in 2009 when Walt was hired and he did not fully bow to the numbers. He explained there needs to be a mix. As it turns out Walt and Dusty know how to win baseball games beyond adding and subtracting numbers. Who would have thought? I mean, the Reds had been terrible for a decade.

I just think Walt and Dusty are good people that also want a good feeling among their staff and players about being a Red, winning as a Red, being rewarded as a Red, etc. It's a great group they have. And you have to spread the credit all around, as an award such as this does. I would give an elevated place, though, for the scouting department. They are the lifeblood of an organization. Although the Reds aren't considered the A's or the Ray's or the Jays (not trying to rhyme here) when it comes to the prospect game, they really should be at or near the top.

Re: Reds named 'Organization of the Year' by Baseball America

Thanks for the personal insult. I don't think calling someone ignorant is worthy of the standards of the Old Red Guard.

It wasn't me who started the Jocketty is asleep at the switch bandwagon. I was just pointing out that it was not an unreasonable topic after someone said it was.

As I have said before, I think Jocketty has done a good job in the last 12 months. I also think he inherited a very strong farm system and a stellar core of young major league players. This team was bound for excellence before Jocketty took over. He did not build this team into a contender all by himself. I think most reasonable people understand that.

If you believe Jocketty did such a great job prior to 2012 then maybe you can explain the moves he made that built this team into a winner. The key components were all here when he took over with the exception of Chapman. Prior to 2012 the acquisition of Chapman was the only unquestionably good player move he had made in several years. I can certainly see why some people saw fit to question Jocketty's job performance (or lack of performance). One good move in several years is clearly quite dubious, especially when there were some glaring holes in the lineup and plenty of trading chips available and plenty of other teams finding ways to fill their holes while Jocketty couldn't.

Jocketty did a great job in 2012. I think most everyone agrees on that.

I don't understand the offense at another person saying one is displaying ignorance on the topic at hand when that same person referred to another person as an "ignoramous" in their primary job of field manager. Why is your derogatory remark acceptable but you are so offended at my pointing out that your opinion is not well informed, in my opinion of course? I'd love to hear the distinction you make.

BTW, you do realize that Jocketty has only been GM since in season 2009, so he hasn't even been GM long enough to have "several years" of anything.

Finally, there are always things to be critical of anyone doing a job. But I found little other than contrarianism in your criticisms.

Re: Reds named 'Organization of the Year' by Baseball America

Originally Posted by traderumor

I don't understand the offense at another person saying one is displaying ignorance on the topic at hand when that same person referred to another person as an "ignoramous" in their primary job of field manager. Why is your derogatory remark acceptable but you are so offended at my pointing out that your opinion is not well informed, in my opinion of course? I'd love to hear the distinction you make.

BTW, you do realize that Jocketty has only been GM since in season 2009, so he hasn't even been GM long enough to have "several years" of anything.

Finally, there are always things to be critical of anyone doing a job. But I found little other than contrarianism in your criticisms.

Obviously it is ok to anonymously snipe a member of the Reds organization with an insult, but out of bounds to do the same to a fellow RZ'er.

You pretty much echo my thoughts on the matter here TR, as the 2 things that came to mind reading this thread were the ignormamus/ignorant thing and the "several years" remark. I'd love to hear that expounded upon.

Re: Reds named 'Organization of the Year' by Baseball America

Originally Posted by mdccclxix

I'd call the Ramon Hernandez trade a win.
.

I forgot about that one.
Yes, the Ramon trade was a huge one in turning the organization around too.
Maybe not as big as Rolen, but it was huge. Catcher had been a black hole for eons before that. To get Ramon for Freel was a total steal.

Another thing that Walt and Dusty need to get credit for is assembling a great clubhouse. Broxton said after resigning "This is the best clubhouse I've ever been in". In my own life, I know it's a lot easier to go to work when I don't have to deal with a bunch of jerks all day. Stuff like that makes a difference when trying to attract or extend players on a budget.

Walt is in contention for "Best Reds GM of my lifetime", simply because it's a lot more difficult to build a winner in a small market now than it was in 1975 or 1990.. I won't say he's the best now, but if he can keep this pace a few more years, he may have a solid case.

Thank you Walt and Bob for going for it in 2010-2014!

Nov. 13, 2007: One of the greatest days in Reds history: John Allen gets the boot!

Re: Reds named 'Organization of the Year' by Baseball America

Originally Posted by AtomicDumpling

I like Scott Rolen, but the trade to acquire him doesn't look like a great move at all. The trade paid off well for a couple months immediately after the trade, but since then it has been a huge steal for the Blue Jays. I would generously consider that trade a wash for the Reds.

The Blue Jays released Encarnacion between the trade and his breakout season. He was signed by Oakland and then granted FA. So in essence anyone in baseball could have signed Edwin at that time. If you consider that the Reds traded a guy who has bounced around the league from team to team to team and a guy who eventually granted an outright release from a second team I don't know how you can say the Reds lost that trade.

Re: Reds named 'Organization of the Year' by Baseball America

Originally Posted by REDREAD

I forgot about that one.
Yes, the Ramon trade was a huge one in turning the organization around too.
Maybe not as big as Rolen, but it was huge. Catcher had been a black hole for eons before that. To get Ramon for Freel was a total steal.

Another thing that Walt and Dusty need to get credit for is assembling a great clubhouse. Broxton said after resigning "This is the best clubhouse I've ever been in". In my own life, I know it's a lot easier to go to work when I don't have to deal with a bunch of jerks all day. Stuff like that makes a difference when trying to attract or extend players on a budget.

Walt is in contention for "Best Reds GM of my lifetime", simply because it's a lot more difficult to build a winner in a small market now than it was in 1975 or 1990.. I won't say he's the best now, but if he can keep this pace a few more years, he may have a solid case.

What separates Cincinnati from KC, Pit, Colorado, Seattle, Toronto, etc? All these teams had great prospects and opportunities to emerge, but the Reds have played their cards better than any thus far.

Re: Reds named 'Organization of the Year' by Baseball America

Originally Posted by bucksfan2

The Blue Jays released Encarnacion between the trade and his breakout season. He was signed by Oakland and then granted FA. So in essence anyone in baseball could have signed Edwin at that time. If you consider that the Reds traded a guy who has bounced around the league from team to team to team and a guy who eventually granted an outright release from a second team I don't know how you can say the Reds lost that trade.

Yep as soon as he was waived and hit FA, the trade reprucussions are moot afterwards.

Free Agency:
Signed Ryan Madson as a free agent.
Signed Dioner Navarro as a free agent.
Signed Ryan Ludwick as a free agent.
Signed Xavier Paul as a free agent.
Signed Ramon Hernandez as a free agent.
Signed Dontrelle Willis as a free agent.
Signed Miguel Cairo as a free agent.
Signed Jeremy Hermida as a free agent.
Signed Edgar Renteria as a free agent.
Signed Fred Lewis as a free agent.
Signed Lance Nyx as a free agent.
Signed Aroldis Chapman as a free agent.
Signed Jose Arredondo as a free agent.
Signed Jonny Gomes as a free agent.
Signed Arthur Rhodes as a free agent.
Signed David Weathers as a free agent.

Waivers:
Selected Alfredo Simon off waivers from the Baltimore Orioles.

Lots of moves. More importantly, I don't see too many outright stinkers. The Valdez for Horst deal looks bad. The signings of Fred Lewis, Jeremy Hermida, and the second signing of Miguel Cairo weren't great-- however, generally, those deals are on the periphery of the major league team. The big deals-- Rolen, Latos, Marshall, Hoover, Chapman, Ludwick-- have all either been a new positive or a net push.

For any GM over a three year period, that's a remarkable achievement, IMO.

On a side note, Jocketty's tenure as Red GM has been phenomenal in terms of finding cheap, productive players as free agents. Almost one in four work out well for the major league team. There aren't many teams that can claim that success. The trades, I kind of expected. Jocketty's well-known for making good trades and has been for two decades.

The free agent list surprised me. There are five guys on that list who had All-Star or near All-Star seasons with the Reds after signing. Three resurrected careers. And the majority of them contributed positively.

Last edited by Scrap Irony; 12-03-2012 at 01:07 PM.

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