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In reference to the second video: This is what gives us OCers bad names. Law enforcement officers should NEVER show up in such force over lawful behavior. If the dispatcher would have asked if you all were being threatening (answer would of course be "no"), and then say you aren't breaking any laws there would never be a problem with us OCing.

No man alive can beat me in a fair fight: It's not fair to chase a man down and beat him.

In reference to the second video: This is what gives us OCers bad names. Law enforcement officers should NEVER show up in such force over lawful behavior. If the dispatcher would have asked if you all were being threatening (answer would of course be "no"), and then say you aren't breaking any laws there would never be a problem with us OCing.

Oh I agree. If the officers were trained they'd know the legality of OC. They could have sent one patrol car by to give it a look over and been on their way. Instead they made a huge scene.

Anyway, I think I covered the bases. Check out the first vid, if I missed anything let me know. I'll annotate any corrections.

Good video ... the detainment section comment/improvement: maybe give people ideas on how to assess if they are being detained (I just walk away slowly ... they'll holler at ya if you are being detained)

Good video ... the detainment section comment/improvement: maybe give people ideas on how to assess if they are being detained (I just walk away slowly ... they'll holler at ya if you are being detained)

I added an annotation suggesting they confirm their detainment by asking "Am I free to go?"

Great video, but, I must disagree with some of your points. You state that a person must ID themselves during a detainment. This is true of citizens of KC MO, but does not apply to citizens in other areas of the state(unless they are in KC). You seem to saying they must based on Section 84-710 of the Missouri Revised Statues. Shown here

Police force--officers of state--powers to arrest (Kansas City).
84.710. 1. The members of the police force appointed in pursuance hereof are hereby declared to be officers of the state of Missouri and of the city for which such commissioners are appointed.

2. They shall have power within the city or on public property of the city beyond the corporate limits thereof to arrest, on view, any person they see violating or whom they have reason to suspect of having violated any law of the state or ordinance of the city. They shall have power to arrest and hold, without warrant, for a period of time not exceeding twenty-four hours, persons found within the city or on public property of the city beyond the corporate limits thereof charged with having committed felonies in other states, and who are reported to be fugitives from justice. They shall also have the power to stop any person abroad whenever there is reasonable ground to suspect that he is committing, has committed or is about to commit a crime and demand of him his name, address, business abroad and whither he is going. When stopping or detaining a suspect, they may search him for a dangerous weapon whenever they have reasonable ground to believe they are in danger from the possession of such dangerous weapon by the suspect. No unreasonable force shall be used in detaining or arresting any person, but such force as may be necessary may be used when there is no other apparent means of making an arrest or preventing an escape and only after the peace officer has made every reasonable effort to advise the person that he is the peace officer engaged in making arrest. 3. Any person who has been arrested without a warrant may be released, without being taken before a judge, by the officer in charge of the police station whenever the officer is satisfied that there is no ground for making complaint against him, or when the person was arrested for a misdemeanor and will sign a satisfactory agreement to appear in court at the time designated.

Section 84 of the statues, deals specifically with either St. Louis or Kansas City. Section 84-710 is further specific to KC. No where else in the state statues is there a requirement that citizens of MO must identify themselves during a detainment. To the best of my knowledge, the only time you must ID yourself is during booking(and even then it is a gray area). This of course does not preclude the requirement to show a driver's license when operating a motor vehicle or the requirement to show a LEO your CCW if asked(and you are in fact conceal carrying or OCing in an area that has a OC only with CCW statue).

Just to clarify, as the statues read now, citizens in areas of MO outside of KC are not required to provide ID during a detainment by LEOs.

Great video, but, I must disagree with some of your points. You state that a person must ID themselves during a detainment. This is true of citizens of KC MO, but does not apply to citizens in other areas of the state(unless they are in KC). You seem to saying they must based on Section 84-710 of the Missouri Revised Statues. Shown here

Section 84 of the statues, deals specifically with either St. Louis or Kansas City. Section 84-710 is further specific to KC. No where else in the state statues is there a requirement that citizens of MO must identify themselves during a detainment. To the best of my knowledge, the only time you must ID yourself is during booking(and even then it is a gray area). This of course does not preclude the requirement to show a driver's license when operating a motor vehicle or the requirement to show a LEO your CCW if asked(and you are in fact conceal carrying or OCing in an area that has a OC only with CCW statue).

Just to clarify, as the statues read now, citizens in areas of MO outside of KC are not required to provide ID during a detainment by LEOs.

I can see how it comes across like that. I was specifically responding to an event that happened with KCPD, but I see what you're saying.

How would the Hiibel v. Sixth Judicial District Court of Nevada case factor into this? Do you think this case has any influence on areas without stop and ID statutes?

I can see how it comes across like that. I was specifically responding to an event that happened with KCPD, but I see what you're saying.

How would the Hiibel v. Sixth Judicial District Court of Nevada case factor into this? Do you think this case has any influence on areas without stop and ID statutes?

Hibel is pretty straight forward. Stop and Identify statues are legal(as long as there is RAS) were they are enacted. This would mean, however, that were they are not enacted there is no requirement to ID oneself. Since there is no statewide statue in place, there can be no statewide requirement to ID.

It would be my opinion, and IANAL, that the preemption of the MO State Constitution would prevent local political sub-divisions from enacting them.