The New Roswell

Unbelievable story of a UFO crash in the city of Varginha, in Brazil, April 1997, the capture of aliens by the military, the participation of the U.S. Government and more. Despite the black-out on this spectacular event, the news spread all around the world very fast, only to dissolve in mediatic oblivion.

Around midnight between January 19-20 NORAD (North American Air Defense Command) contacts their Brazilian alike CINDACTA (Integrated Center on Air Defense and Air Traffic Control) and warns them of a UFO coming down over southern parts of Minas Gerais state.

This is witnessed and leaked by both a Brazilian Air Force man and an employee at the radar facility at Air Force Base VI Comar, who received the information, all this according to John Carpenter and Ricardo Varela Correa.

The farmworkers couple Augusta and Eurico Rodrigues were wakened by the roams of the farm cows and sheep. As they looked out the window to see what was up they saw the animals running from one side to the other. As they looked up the sky they saw a silent UFO without lights. John Carpenter gives us an image of the UFO:

"It was a submarine-shaped "mini-bus" that was trembling like a curtain and emitting smoke or fog as it descended to at least 5 meters above the ground. A military witness now admits that it crashed and he was part of the debris retrieval. Material was twisted and lightweight."

The Rodrigues couple's farm is placed in a coffee district located 10 kilometers (6 miles) northwest from the town of Varginha, midway between Varginha and Tres Coracoes. The house sits at the edge of the road. And the UFO is believed to have crashed between 1:30 AM and 5:00 AM that night.

105 Comments / User Reviews

Aw Heck

Nothing much of anything. Pointless documentary.

Bentley T Coon

UFOs are the most unscientific thing that has ever been proposed. Only watch this if you are mentally challenged

Justin

AND?

Connie

I set our dinner plates on the table, then lit the candle,and hit the play button. Since we had a smaller dinner tonight we were done fairly quickly. We set our Rockers toward the computer. I then sat down and hadn't even covered my legs with my binky yet when suddenly the screen went black with the replay button displaying its over...

I just feel I was invaded quickly by the thought of relaxing to a doc. but it must of been an illusion LOL.

Too bad cause it was very interesting, However I would rather watch a doc that isn't filled with Junk and lies rather than a honest quicky.

Teamtigerpaw

I think the very first sentence in the description of this film “Unbelievable story of a UFO crash in the city of Varginha…” is the only truth here. The operative word being Unbelievable. Just my two cents

TMCD

@ Vlatko et al

1400 docs (yay V-man) I am thinking you posted this one to force us to really start thinking. (LOLx10)

Waldo

I somewhat disagree with Bently, in that the only reason these assertions are unscientific is because science refuses to take it seriousely and do any research. I am very skeptical of 99% of UFO sightings, but that one percent that is credible should recieve scientific attention. There are simply too many credible sightings by civilian aricraft pilots, military aircraft pilots, astronaughts, even one president (Carter) to say this is all just mistakes or lies.

That said, this particular case does have some questionable details and seems a little grandios. I feel at least one or two of the medical peoples involved would feel this to be important enough to talk, and why were pictures not taken. I mean if I was a nurse or doctor and someone brought something like this to my hospital I would definitely document what was happening or at least feel compelled to talk about it. Then again perhaps these people were intimidated into silence or this happened so quickly and unexpectedly that they had no way to take pictures or find some way to prove this had happened.

It makes perfect sense to me that the military would want to keep things like this covered up, it would cause mass hysteria if it came to light in a definitive way. Religion would fall apart, people would question our safety and lose trust in science and the governments abilities. Not to mention it would expose one of the biggest cover ups to have ever taken place. That said if governments across the world know about aliens then it would seem by now at least one of them would have talked. I mean that is a very widespread and complicated cover up to keep together.

In the end I don't know what to think I suppose. I have seen something myself, its along story and I really don't want to get into that, so I have to believe that there is something going on. But, it raises so many things that are hard to believe, it is just baffling really. I will say that if you are one of those people that think you would love to see something for yourself you should think really hard about that. Seeing some light in the sky may not be a big deal, but if you are unlucky enough to see something up close and personal that defies all logic- it really will mess with your head. I for one wish I had never seen what I saw, it affected me in very negative ways. Seems to have really threw some switches in my head. I don't know how to trust anything anymore and at times feel very alone and depressed for some reason about what I saw. I wouldn't wish it on my worst enemy. But, maybe thats just me.

debs

vlatko is a humanoid lizard from kpax. tdf is a facade for a hostile reptilian crime syndicate sponsored by google. their mission is to subvert us into slavery by destroying our humanity with rubbish documentaries.

ProudinUS

I have to turn this off because Elvis just offered me some of his pills and one of his b#tches.

debs

i just had poo and it was grey.. GREY!!!

Achems Razor

A lot of astronauts claim that they have observed ufo craft on there missions.

Don't know about this doc. but I do not discount all the ufo sightings and visitations.

Farren

listen to all the closed-minded naysayers. they don't even acknowledge the facts.

@waldo has the right idea. while there are many hoaxes, there are real inexplicable situations as well. it takes courage to acknowledge these and not give into peer pressure and dismiss the whole idea

there is a pattern of people here on TDF who don't even watch or pay attention to the documentaries. when they come across a documentary that challenges their beliefs, they make a snide comment about it.

to those who aren't closed minded, good on ya. a true scientist looks at facts. unless the entire story made by all of the people in this documentary in Brazil is fake, it makes no sense to plug your ears and say b.s.

debs

you'd think in this day and age some muthaf%cker somewhere would have got some decent video or photo evidence. “it is the 1990s you know..” not asking for too much really.

TMCD

Show me the money. And a bit of levity. Tnx

Connie

I saw a flag or blooper... How come the Government knew what size crates to bring to the site and was already crating and loading the Aliens before the fire company got to the scene?
That was pretty fast to beat the Fire trucks.

Does the government have standard size alien crates on hand for such common emergencys ?

Robyn

This video is light on evidence and heavy on hearsay. Personally I tend to consider the possibility of alien visitation as probable. There are just too many aberrations in the history of man that are unexplainable without it, like: The Mayan’s advanced understanding of our solar system, their advanced mathematics and their very complex and very accurate calendar(s) all seemingly without the use of computers. Another is Gobekli Tepe in Turkey, documented to be 12,000 years old, where the carved animal depictions in stone pillars seem to be dissolved rather than chiseled. And why does almost every culture have a myth about ‘men from the sky’?

Couple that with the advances we have made in the last century: mega computers, gene mapping, genetic modification, designer organisms, the moon landing, splitting the atom, lasers and sending unmanned craft out into space to observe other planets as just a few examples. What will we be doing in another 100 years? With all of the water science is observing in our solar system, I think life elsewhere is almost an absolute certainty. IF life on Earth had started as mammals rather than dinosaurs and there was no mass extinction, with a 200 million year head start over today’s advances in science, assuming we didn’t annihilate ourselves, we could very well be the ones exploring the Universe. Just a thought!

Barbara

If aliens are real, why is everything they do so hush hush and secretive? If they had really exist and have the technology to enter our zone, why don't they just come out in the open and say howdy?

I'm not buying it.

Waldo

@ Connie

That was a standard sized crate I believe, and the military called the fire department, I think that is what they said. Them having a one meter sqaure crate though is no shocker for sure, very common. The compelling thing to me is that they said all the military and civilian witnesses gave the same details, that is unusual even for a mondane occurence. Still, over all I kind of doubt this particular incident as being factual, too many witnesses for someone not have had at least a camera phone. Plus, I don't believe the military would take such a creature to a civilian hospital. They would have taken it to one of their research facilities, surely the Brazillian military has one. Thats my .02 any way.

Omar

this is pathetic, "i have proof, but...", "i have information for the whole world, but...".

a few arrests is worth the final truth about extraterrestrial live on earth.

this is real b....s....t

Carl Hendershot

LMFAO . Was interesting. Muahhahahaaaaa.

TAA

To Waldo, posting # 7.
" Seeing some light in the sky may not be a big deal, but if you are unlucky enough to see something up close and personal that defies all logic- it really will mess with your head. "

I am one of those people too who has had a real up close encounter and I too don't beleive anyone who is in a position of athority as a result of knowing the truth and being fed their lies. Great comments !

Waldo

@ TAA

Thanks for the compliment, and for coming forward. For me it is hard to believe those in power or in logic at all. I had a nice safe veiw of reality you know, and this shattered it. I know this sounds ridiculus, but I even find myself afraid of the dark so to speak. If those things were real, and there is no doubt in my mind that they were, then all I have taken for granted may be false. It makes me feel vurnerable and sometimes very alone, even though i know others have seen things as well.

I didn't see any creatures, let me make that clear. I saw two beach ball sized lights about four to six feet off the ground. They were keeping pace with my car and when I stopped so did they. They were about thirty or forty feet from me, fifty at the most. My window was down, or I rolled it down when I first saw them so it was no reflection or swamp gas. When I tried to get out of the car I found that I was paralyzed with fear, at least I think it was fear. I literally could not move. After maybe three or four minutes I did manage to call out, I just made a random noise but I tried to say, "Hey". It came out like gibberish though. As soon as the sound left my mouth though they were gone, they turned and shot off toward a wood line about three hundred yards away, as they went they seperated- by the time they reached the wooded area they were about fifty feet apart, of course all of these distances are just judgements made in the dark and when I was scared to death.

I really think it was just fear that parylized me, cause when they were gone the adrenaline hit me and I threw up I was so scared. I shook all the way back home so bad I could hardly drive. This was about three years ago and I still can't get over it, it really has messed me up. How do you work and do all the little mondane things in life when in your mind the whole world is on fire? I guess I am one of those people that needs logic, needs to have my feet on the ground very badly.

Another odd thing was that as bright as they were they did not light up anything around them. It was like the light was inside them but didn't shine out- I don't know how to explain it. They had to be intelligently controlled or they could not have kept such perfect pace with my car and stopped when I stopped, nor reacted to the sound I made. After I got home I told my dad, he is a very honest and old fashioned x-navy guy. He said he and some friends had seen two lights that exactly matched what I described some years earlier when the area I saw them in was forested. They were hunting and these lights came within about one hundred feet of them and then slowly raised above the tress and slowy floated out of sight. If you knew my dad you would know there is simply no way he would make something up or pull my leg about this.

I know people think I am lieing or on something, but I swear on everything I am that this is real and I was sober as sober can be. I wished it had not happened to me, I really do. But, it did and I have to live with the what ifs and jitters for the rest of my life. Thanks for your support and for coming forward, it isn't easy. Trust me I have wondered if I am crazy or something so many times, but I know what I saw.

ProudinUS

@Waldo

have you watched the "The Portal:The Hessdan Lights Phenomenon" doc. yet?

Farren

@Waldo,

A lady who had a very similar experience happen to her is named Miriam Delicado. In her case (a few decades back I think, when it happened), they forced her (telepathy or mind control or something) to pull over. Her friend was with her, and they were driving down a remote road in British Columbia at night. They were very scared as well. The next thing she remembers, she was in a craft of theirs, and other things happened. It was not bad...they turned out to be benevolent types (I've heard of various species). You can look her up. I think there may be a documentary on TDF or you can find through google about her.

It's great that more and more people are speaking up for their experiences. So many automatically shut out and make fun of anyone who even speaks about these things. That attitude is very immature.

Ronaldo

I was a kid there when the whole story hit the press, and I can tell you that, unlike other stories that remain under the umbrella of the "yellow press" and limited to small chit-chat among the uneducated masses, this case hit the press big! Big networks, newpapers and weekly news magazines were all talking about it. The incident was taken very seriously by the press. Even Norad was involved. At one point, The Wall Street Journal picked up the story too!

I'm not saying that you must believe that a UFO crashed in Brazil in the 90's. What I'm saying is that the story has many curious elements and is being dismissed too quickly here. I guess, mostly because it did not take place in a First World country. Someone even questioned the absence of photos. That was the 90's, before cellphones and before Brazil became a "Bric" economy. If you watch the documentary you'll clearly see that those people are poor. Below the average poor! They would have a hard time to buy an ordinary paper notebook, let alone a camera!

Again, who knows what really happened? Maybe a clown fell off a circus' trapeze and that triggered a series of crazy misunderstandings. :-) Maybe a US, European or Russian satellite fell on those woods and Secrecy was paramount. I don't really know. I won't claim one way or the other, but the hasty dismissal of the story as being completely fabricated by all those people -- some senior citizens -- sounded a bit "small". I've certainly seen more unbelievable stories in the "Ancient Aliens" TV series, yet I still watch it sometimesdue to the questions it brings up. I love science and have seen all documentaries about "Evolution" and "Big Bang" that have popped up here. Skepticism is not only sound, but fundamental. That's on what science is founded.

Just make sure you guys "listen" before making quick judgments. Watch the documentary before making out-of-place comments. Something happened in that town.

Khaled

The keyword here is: "Multiple witnesses" both civilian and military. Yet skeptics somehow choose to ignore that and call it unscientific? stick to rational criticism people!

Soeren

Bentley T Coon: and your point is? i havent watched this video yet, but what youre saying makes little sense. why is it always PROOF THIS PROOF THAT. The universal membrane theory can easily be compared to this, cause it is pure theory, yet lots of people can be fascinated about this theory, without being called idiots, and why is that? just because it is something that makes sense? Well then, it should be JUST the same way with UFOs, cause they DO make sense no matter how little you try no to, or no matter how much you convince yourself that its impossible or that we are alone.

i think a lot of people, just like yourself, tend to compare aliens to us, and the timeline we live in. cause a lot of people do find it impossible for alien beings to travel half across the milky way, but is it really? who ever said that aliens arent several million years ahead of us in technology? because i think its pretty logic, to think that OF COURSE they are ahead of us. it is only naive to think otherwise, which i think your comment makes you.

also people are quick to identify mysteries, but when its about UFO, its always "nah it has to be something else, it just HAS to". so many people ignore what is right under their noses. like all those ancient buildings with perfect edges, that date back more than 10k bc, cause it is a FACT (theres some evidence of what we think our past to be is false) that these buildings couldnt have been build by primitive man, and with primitive tools only made out of stone, it cant be done, although im not gonna come up with some theory on how i think it all went down, cause i wont get it right. that doesnt mean, that i dont think something weird happened back then, cause the proof is right there, we just dont know what weird stuff went down.

that doesnt change the fact, that the only logical explanation as of today is linked somewhat with aliens (look at ancient cave pantings, they look nothing like gods, but aliens, although aliens are probably what we pictured as gods back then).

but then again, there's no discussing this topic with half of the world, cause they obviously believe the universe is black and white, and that planet earth is seperated from the rest of the universe, and that aliens are impossible.

and from my experience, these people who often disclaime the possibility of aliens who have visisted earth, are often religious people, and do i need to remind people of little logical sense most religious people have?

Soeren

Barbara: do you know these aliens? do you know their motives? like i posted before, you compare aliens to humans. there could be MILLIONS of reasons to stay hidden.

maybe they are researching us
maybe they are tracking us, watching how we've progressed over the many years

and the most obvious one, why should they come out? what do they have to gain from human technology, probably nothing

im sure you could have said all these things to yourself, if you had sat down and made a logical approach to this subject yourself.

so in the future, could you please criticize yourself and your own flaws, instead of finding flaws where there werent any to begin with.

kain

@ waldo

Haven't watched the doc yet, but just an observation regarding your comment why someone didn't take a pic on their phone- it was 1997. As far as I know camera phones weren't on the market 'til early 2000's (2002/2003 I think, except somewhere technologically zany like japan where I saw video capable mobiles in 2000).

Connie

@ Of coarse there are Aliens. They cross our borders everyday. If Obama can't keep the fences up how in the world is gonna fence the sky? TEE HEE Just joking and trying to wake up....

You guys have some good points of view . I myself would like to add that it is the witnesses that give validity in this Doc. Somehow Witnesses seems to be taken as unaccounttable in cases such as these.
These are not one or two accounts. These are multiple people. Tear them apart they are very credible. EVen if the story has been reinacted. The story line of who said what and what happened to them are way too credible to dismiss as hearsay.
I much rather trust the words of civilians then I would what ever ridicules story the Gov. makes up.

I do believe the Gov. wasn't able to cover it up verywell. They had no choice and did do things in the public eye. But whats new they do that everyday and then say you did not see or hear that.... MAss control !

They say those scanners are not a health risk and that they dont record. even when we know they do and have been caught.

Clinton says he did not have sex. yet he smoked that cigar!

Yeah right! Smoke this !

verona

I would just like to say that connie is completely right any one that takes what the government makes up without question is mentally challenged the gov will say or do what meets there agenda they are just people and are just as capable of lying as any one but they have the power to make people believe what they say.
It's up to us as people to question what they say look at all evidence and make up our mind.

As for Bentley T Coon with a post like yours, you obviously have no idea what you are talking about there is a lot of evidence to support the possibility of alien life and to call some one how wants to see more on the topic ether way mentally challenged you must have a very low IQ.

Leo

With colored lights, gifts and an over weight white guy wearing a red suite, you celebrate a ficticious holiday called Christmas once a year, but you do not believe in UFO's. Bentley, your just another example an over done thing called 'human nature'. Read a book.

Waldo

@ Christa

This is an explanation of one incident, that I am not even sure I buy. But, lets give it the benefit of the doubt and say yes this is true, the Roswell incident was a stealth type craft borrowed from German technology and using deformed children as human guinea pigs. This still in no way explains the hundreds of credible sightings of aircraft doing things that physics simply does not allow. I am a physics major and while I am sure the government has air craft with capabilities well past what the public knows they simply can not break the laws of physics. That is something that goes so far beyond any technology or research we have that I will never believe the government has been able to do it. These craft that are able to fly with no noise or visible means of propulsion and do things like make a right angled turn at thousands of miles an hour are operating outside the laws of physics, far outside the laws of physics. The balls of light that I described in my above post were only the size of beach balls, and yet they could manuver and do things that were incredible. Nothing we have ever even imagined can do that and be contained in something the size of a beach ball. The light that illuminated them was altogether different from the light we know of. It had the ability to be very bright but not light up anything around them, they were inches from the tops of undergrowth and yet did not light up a single leaf. It was like the light was only detectable by my eyes but did not exist in the physical world.

Trust me, I would like to think that this was all just the government, and many sightings very well may be. But, many are just not things that our government or any other here on earth is capable of. These craft have to have someway of insulating themselves from things like inertia, momentum, g-force, and friction. If not they would simply fall to pieces from these forces acting on them when they do things like accelerate form 0 to thousands of miles an hour in seconds, or make right angled turns at speeds we can not even comprehend. Even if the craft could withstand these forces a human pilot could not, his body would be ripped to pieces.

@ Ronaldo

You are absolutely correct, my apologies. My post must have sounded very smug and pompas. In my defense I did not realize this took place that long ago and I simply failed to take into consideration the economics involved in the area. I meant no offense.

Since you are more familiar with this incident and that area can you help me understand why the military would take this creature to a civilian hospital? I am open minded about such things as I have had my own experiences, but in the US they would never take a creature like that to a civilian hospital nor transport it in broad daylight. Our citizens would quickly learn what was happening and tear the place apart to get to the truth. It also seems odd that these reporters and researchers would value someones military carreer enough not to expose what is the most important discovery made in the history of the known universe. You have to understand that we are not being closed minded but this stuff doesn't make sense to us Americans, here it simply would not happen this way.

@ ProudinUS

No, I haven't but I was planning to tonight. I am a little scared of what I might see. I know that sounmds crazy, but it is true. Thanks for asking.

Waldo

@ Barbara

If you can't figure that out on your own this is probably pointless, but I will try and help you out. Number one, if you saw creatures acting the way we do, killing anything they don't understand so they can disect it in the name of science, would you drop in for a visit? Number two, look what we do with the technology we are lucky enough to discover. Man learns to split the atom and what is the first thing he does, make a bomb and kill thousands that were already ready to surrender in the first place. Only later do we discover we can use that technology to explore the properties of matter and advance science and our understanding of the universe, or use fusion to create unimaginable amounts of energy. If these guys are able to travel the universe then they would more than likely know better than to drop in and give us technology that we have yet to earn. Number three, viruses are a b*tch. Number four, perhaps they have and the governments are keeping it covered up. I doubt this one myself, as most cover ups are not successfull, but it is a possibility. Number five, perhaps they have and not even the government knows.

There are five viable reasons off the top of my head. The truth is it is probably more complicated than that and we may not understand their reasons for staying hidden. Believe what you like of course, but it must be miserable to live in such an unimaginative world as you.

Reasons Voice

Just a few issues with this particular story. "not the most sophisticated species of alien" Interstellar travel = pretty darn sophisticated. The description/ discriptions of the creatures don't match up. The few that do corrilate with eachother all have horns. Why horns? Evolution shows us that species will not posess physical attributes that serve no purpose. Horns? Typical uses for horns are, Head butting, Head butting, and head butting. None of those actions would seem productive for an intellectually advanced species. Smashing ones cranium against things can be detrimental to mastery of quantum physics. They have horns because this is a heavily christian region and theses were of course "devils" and as we all know devils have horns duhh. I think I saw that first EYE WITNESS on a separate doc about her collection of Blessed Virgin gorditas. Asside from that there is likely life out there some of which may be capable of visitation. But as yet I have seen no solid unrefutable proof

Arnold Vinette

After watching this video all I could think was incredible. Incredible that I could watch the whole thing. Joke!

What about UFO's though are they real?

In 1982 I had a very unusual experience in Ottawa, Canada (specifically Queenswood Hieghts, Orleans at the end of Jamison Street overlooking Gatineau, Quebec).

A cylinder shaped craft (view edge on) rapidly moved into my field of view moving east to west over Gatineau, Quebec. The speed of the object was incredible. Extend your arm and and in a steady motion move it from right to left. This was the speed of the object estimated to be 20 miles away. (Use Google Earth for an exact measurement)

The sound of the unknown object was absolutely silent. Its estimated speed was 5 to 6 faster than a passenger jet.

25 years later I would see filmed footage from the space shuttle that showed a similar type of object moving rapidly across North America and then up into space.

Having seen a UFO with my own eyes, I know these vehicles exist for real. What they are I have no idea. But they are very fast, very maneuverable, and very quiet.

The above incident was seen by several people in Ottawa including several students at Carleton University. The incident was written up in Ottawa's newspaper the Ottawa Citizen.

The exact date of the incident is unknown.

Arnold Vinette
Ottawa, Canada

Connie

@ Reason Voice I so not see your logic .

You have no idea if they use their horns, So you cannot judge by that.

Secondly which came first the chicken or the egg? You say the horns are associated with Religion as a strong hint that the local Chrsitians made a mass hysteria conclusion they were devils based on the horns.

First of all religion as we have been commonly fed is not what we were taught.

Think Sumerian origins and the Annununki the Gods who ruled Sumeria.The clay tablets and beings that came down.

Just because modern religions do not teach it does not mean that the recorded history that does recognize Other life forms and have recorded it over and over.

Did you ever hear yet of glyphs or Clay tablets being etched just to tell a story of Jack and Jill ? I do not think they would carve stone and rock just to tell a nursery rhyme.

have you read any of Zecharia Sitchen books yet?

jack1952

@ Waldo

I have to get back to you because my damn wife is hysterical and won't shut up.

ProudinUS

@Waldo

Is there a good phsysics tutorial on the web that I can study from?(beginners prog. of course)

jack1952

They're hiding under my bed. I found them there when I went to hide.

kain

@Reasons Voice

The reference to the aliens "not being very sophisticated" by Stanton Friedman was in relation to him stipulating the aliens witnessed were not the pilots of the craft, but rather were possibly cargo (stated as a theory only). The reason he made this statement was based on the actions, or lack thereof of the creature witnessed by the girls. It basically sat around unclothed (being nude doesn't necessarily mean anything of course), "woozy" as if it had as much idea of what was happening as the girls who saw it. I'm just relaying what Friedman said in the doc, that you would have seen as well.
Extrapolating his theory to what you were saying re: horns, if they were not the pilots and their passive, undirected behaviour indicated a lack of intellectual acumen, they evidently would be less evolved than their csptors and us and therefore further down their relative evolutionary ladder.
Besides what are described as "horns" may in fact not be anything like terran horns in terms of evolutionary purpose.
There's a lot of if's and buts obviously with this story however when watching something "out there" like this I swap "aliens" and "ufos" for something like "rare birds" and see if the story would be considered legitimate with the level of substantiaton it has then. As in I treat it as if it were about a subject matter thats existence was undeniable, it's a good litmus test of plausability for me. Because if you can't believe/stomach the idea of alien life visiting earth, people really just don't pass GO on being able to discuss or analyze objectively the details of any of the ET/UFO subject matter (rationally) at all.

Waldo

@ Connie

His point, reasons voice that is, is that evolution shows us that creatures do not have attributes unless they are useful. This is somewhat true, however evolution does tolerate what is called nuetral traits, meaning they have no use but are no detriment to the species survival. That said, horns would use quite alot of certain minerals and growth energy to be produced and would probably have a negative impact on beings this sophisticated.

As far as your Sumerian reference, huh? I totally do not get what you are trying to say. I have a degree in theology and have studied the Sumerian gods extensively, it is complete falsification that has been made popular by amatuer websites that these gods came from the planet called Nibiru, or some such b.s, and that this is in fact the planetary body called palnet x that lies beyond Pluto.

First off in 2005, the existence of a Kuiper Belt object that was larger than Pluto was announced by the California Institute of Technology, and promptly labelled by NASA "the tenth planet". 2003 UB313 was found by Dr Mike Brown and his colleagues using the Samuel Oschin Telescope at Palomar Observatory near San Diego CA. This was first photographed on 31 October 2003. However, the object was so far away that its motion was not detected until they reanalyzed the data. This reanalysis found the new planet at 1120 hr PST on 5 January 2005. Like Pluto, it appears to be surfaced with methane ice, but is grey in colour. Since this discovery they have decided to demote Pluto and some objects beyond in the Kuiper belt to be called dwarf planets, and they have no life or atmosphere capable of supporting life.

Now, here is the real Summerian explanation of where the Anunnaki lived and originated from:

"Celestial Dilmun resembles a large planetary asteroid mass with its own atmosphere and seasonal cycles and a civilization nearly identical with the ancient ziggurats of Sumeria. It is linked to the other-dimensional realm of Kur (Kurnugi) with a region, Allatum, reserved for the shades of the dead. The lowest parts of Kurnugi, known as Sheol, are ruled by the demon-goddess Lilith, populated by demons known as the Sebettu."

So, they did not even postulate that these fictional beings came from planet x, which doesn't exist anyway to anyone other than these ancient astronaut weirdos. They did postulate that they descended from the heavens, there's a shocker- all so called gods supposedly came from the heavens, but not our heavens, another spacial demensions heavens.

Besides, evolution has provided conclusive proof of where we came from and how it happened and it had nothing to do with ancient aliens using us for genetically egineered slaves. These guys make the ridiculus claim that virtually over night the homosapien DNA form just sprang up. This is absolutely false, we see a very steady and drawn out progression of gene dependant forms gradually getting closer and closer to our present structure in the fossil record. We see plain evidence of evolutionary radiation of the human ancestor as well, which is to be expected if we evolved the same as all other species.

As far as your assumption that they would not etch into stone insignifcant stories or myths, wrong. This happened over and over in ancient times. Of course they didn't consider it to be myth or just a story, they thought it was worth while to record where their gods came from. Besides, the discovery you referr to was written in soft clay that later became dried and then turned to stone over thousands of years. It was no big deal at all to etch things into soft clay, they did it to keep track of economic transactions, laws, myths, and anything else they decided to write down because they had no other way of writing. It was called cuniform and was the earliest form of writing.

I mean no offense, but I do not like it when this type of crazy unfounded b.s. gets mixed into the UFO phenomenon. It makes all us believers look ridiculus. UFOs may have very well visited in the past, but they had nothing to do with creating mankind, they were not the Sumerian gods, and they did not build the pyramids.

Waldo

@ jack1952

Thats fine, I am divorced myself so I know how you feel. I hope the last comment you made was just a joke and not a poke.

Waldo

@ ProudinUS

Sorry man, they are having issues with the server on the physicswidgets page. I know the guys that run this page and they tell me it will be fixed soon. They will also be posting lots of links to other beginners sites soon. Give them time and it will be a great resource. You can try the other page though, it seems to be running fine.

Waldo

@ Connie

As I read over the post I adressed to you above I see it sounds very condescending and rude, I am truly sorry. It just came out that way, I have nothing against you personally.

I don't subscribe to the ancient astronaut theory as I have studied enough history and theology to know as much of the truth as we have knowledge of and it is much more than what these guys give us credit for. I applaud the fact that you seem to be very inquisitive and want to know the truth of these things, but be careful. There is always some sect out there with these kinds of crazy ideas and they can be very conviencing.

That said, we all have the obligation to think critically which means distinguishing what we feel is truth for ourselves. So you believe what ever you want, and I for one will not hold it against you.

kain

@waldo

You put together a salient argument not only based on sound critical thinking but also evidently from the basis of being well informed.
Question; have you studied much regarding the Veda's? They are often referred to as the smoking gun of ancient history in terms of the ancient alien theory, due to their apparent explicit reference to aerial craft used by the "gods". I believe they were described as virmahna's (sic) and I've seen a book by a mechanical engineer (at the library, sorry no links to substantiate) where hes transposed the technical description of them into pictures of craft strikingly similar to well, ufo's (also very similar to the supposed blueprints of antigrav craft being developed in Nazi Germany- as you know there is no doubt the 3rd Reich/Vrill society were deeply steeped in the occult and writings of certain early civilisations).
Whilst I would not doubt you are better educated than I regarding the history of a lot of the civilisations bundled up in the "A A" theory, I really don't believe, based on what I have learnt it is so easily dismissed that ET's had a hand in our formative development (not necessarily saying genetically- rather astronomically i.e dogon tribe,mathematically, agriculturally etc). The concept of aliens playing a dual role as gods is actually extremely plausible when taken into context of our primitive ancestors perspective.
Interestingly, the reason Cortez and his men managed to wreak so much havoc during the initial "colonisation" of South America was because the natives had a myth that their God (quetzacaoutl/viracocha and other titles depending on the region I believe- who was variously described as light skinned & or bearded) would return one day. They saw huge galleons in the bay and caucasian men dressed in shining armour hit the shore and as the story goes, misconcieved them (understandably) as the gods returned.
It just puts the plausibility of the A A theory into perspective for me. Regardless of what traditional archaeology, history may contend.

ProudinUS

@Waldo

Thankyou.I read alot of the posts and to be honest with you I don't know what the hell everyones talking about when it comes to physics.I'm just a dumb welder who knows how to build structures(and read a tape measure).I'm willing to learn though.Always find time for that!

Waldo

@ kain

No, I have not studied the Veda, but I will look into it. I would say though that the example of the South American tribes thinking the Spanish were gods works directly against the ancient alien theory. It clearly shows the extraordinary lengths these types of primitive cultures will go to inorder to explain what they do not understand. I would also say that since we have writings by these peoples you talk of having such advanced mathematics and astronomy for their time, the mayans, egyptians, dogons, etc., wouldn't it also follow we should have written proof of the aliens that provided them with such knowledge? It strikes me as something they would not have left out, that another species came from the sky to give them said knowledge.

What we do have written proof of is that certain pharoahs ordered the pyramids to be built, and we even know who the architects were that designed these pyramids. We have writings that clearly explain all of this. We have also found the village where the workers lived and their tombs. We have the excavation sites where they hand chisled the stones, and chisel marks are clearly visible. We also know that these stones could have been moved with man power by using a wooden sled on the clay floor of the area they came from and pouring water in front of the runners to ease friction. They have simulated this and found it was more than possible with the massive amount of man power the egyptians had.

Now that we see we have fairly conclusive proof that the ancient Egyptians did build the pyramids lets think about what that tells us. The pyramids had perfect right angled corners and very specific 52 degree sloped sides, and were almost perfectly aligned to the four points of the compass, north- south- east- west. Now if the ancient egyptians were capable of this, and no seriouse historian doubts they were, then it makes sense that the Mayans and other cultures could have developed the necessary math and so forth to construct their monuments.

We also have a qoute from Democritus saying that no one surpassed his abilities to draw out straight lines for land survey not even the famous rope-stretchers (surveyors) of the Egyptians. Here we see the beginnings of geometry. Here is a qoute from a mathematics website explaining a little about the egyptian unit fractions:

"Nowadays, we usually write non-integer numbers either as fractions (2/7) or decimals (0.285714). The floating point representation used in computers is another representation very similar to decimals. But the ancient Egyptians (as far as we can tell from the documents now surviving) used a number system based on unit fractions: fractions with one in the numerator. This idea let them represent numbers like 1/7 easily enough; other numbers such as 2/7 were represented as sums of unit fractions (e.g. 2/7 = 1/4 +1/28). Further, the same fraction could not be used twice (so 2/7 = 1/7 + 1/7 is not allowed). We call a formula representing a sum of distinct unit fractions an Egyptian fraction."

Many scholars believe the Greeks gained much of their mathematics from the Egyptians, and we know that the Greeks were amazingly advanced in algebra and trigonometry, take for instance the pythagorean theorem. So is it really that much of a stretch to think the Mayans, Dogons, Aztecs, and other seemingly advanced cultures could not have come up with the amazing structures and astronomy that they apparently did by themselves? I don't think so and neither do the vast majority of scholars that research these cultures.

Did you know that Eratosthenes, a greek mathematician figured out not only that the earth was round but was able to accurately measure the circumference with a simple one meter long stick and some local knowledge? He knew that in a near by town called Syene on a certain day at midday the sun shone perfectly on the bottom of a well. He deduced that this meant the sun was directly over head on that day at that specific time. Eratosthenes figured that by measuring the shadow in Alexandria, of a one meter stick stuck in the ground at a right angle he could figure out how much of the curve of the Earth separated Alexandria from Syene. Then by combining that knowledge and what he knew of the properties of circles he was able to figure the circumference of the earth almost perfectly. Now if he could do this then it follows that the ancient Mayans and Egyptians should have been able to do what they did as well.

Thanks for the conversation, I will look into the Veda.

Waldo

@ ProudinUS

Hey man, I was a welder for years. I am thirty eight now and going back to college for the third time. I took theology and history (western civ) the first time, graduated but what a stupid degree to persue for me. No jobs in North Alabama for such a degree, so I started working construction and ended up welding. Then I went back while working and flunked out, its hard to weld all day and then rush to school with no time even for a bath and sit in class covered in suit and smelling like grease and welding smoke. Plus I live on a farm and there is tons of work here so I had to try and manage that as well. Finally I had a wreck on the way to work and broke my spine in three places, so back to college I go. This time I am majoring in physics and loving it, though I am thinking of changing to archeaology and Native American studies now. There is work for that degree in this area so I could keep the farm and still work in my field of study.

Nothing wrong with us blue collar folks man, you hang in there bud. It is getting harder and harder for us common people. Gas prices are up again, groceries are outrageous, and they give the ultra rich a d*mn tax break? Arghh!You'll do fine with physics I am sure. Good talking to you.

ProudinUS

@Waldo

Nice talking to you too.Sorry about your accident.I am just a year older then you and have been welding for 20 yrs.The smell of coming home from my profession makes my wife mad as hell.But it puts food on the table.

I live in Idaho and have many native freinds(Shoshone).I live 1 mile from the reservation.Neat culture.My family goes to all the POW WOWS and has a great time.

Well,I won't bore you know more.Thanks for the encouragement.

kain

@waldo

Thank you for your reply.

Yeah the veda's are somewhat curious (but not unique) in that they refer to their origins being not thousands, but 10's of thousands of years into the past (making it theoretically pre-ice age).
As for your retort regarding the lengths primitive peoples will go to..isn't that exactly the point I was making? If a Mayan unfamiliar with ocean going naval vessels and personal armour able to protect against steel misidentifies who he sees as a god, what then would primitives make of an extraterrestrial descending from the sky- they would go to extreme lengths to attempt to categorize what they see, i.e describe them as a "god". Both instances require the actual occurrence of a phenomena of which to attempt to explain. I do not see how I neutralized my argument at all by the example I gave, to the contrary I feel you did yours.
As for written proof of their presence, arguments abound that it does- across the "religions" in the world, is it more plausible to think that ancient people had a huge amount of time on their hands (although in saying this they certainly did have access to psychoactive drugs which creates an extra layer to the whole alien/extra dimensional/god enigma)after they figured out how to create a uniform, recordable means of communication, to sit around and dream up these interactions, dictums, moralities and stories ascribed to as "religious" text, whilst also having the same tools of reason as you say by example to build the pyramids?
On the one hand they are lauded for their innovation and raw genius when it comes to rationalising the existence of something like the pyramids (specifically the oldest and most mysterious at Giza lets say) and on the other these same peoples mystery traditions and historical beliefs are dismissed as primitive fancy?
As for the Mayans et al, the vast majority of their history, religion etc were recorded on sheaves of bark and summarily burnt by the conquistadors as profane testament to a race of savages, and so unfortunately they are one previous high civilisation who we cannot expose to scrutiny as easily as perhaps the Egyptians (of which mainstream archeology dominates the perception of them- the scientific community is regrettably not as objective as the concept of science itself,for a variety of reasons mostly involving egos, reputations and money).
As for the Dogons I simply referred to them because they are quite an ancient tribe (and unless they had historical association with the Nubians or others, not particularly advanced either) that knew the exact location of Sirius B, the companion star to Sirius- which happens to be invisible to the naked eye(I will be the first person to counter claim myself here in that debunkers have stated the Dogon themselves incorporated this from people who had misidentified information shared by the Dogon when anthropologists first studied them..although this counter claim in itself is tenuous).
As for your well documented (and somewhat exhaustive to read, I'm not much of a mathemetician, or physicist- to be honest it kind of smacked of the fact overload approach to quelling an opposing argument) elucidation of the evidence as to how man was responsible for the forging of their own tools of knowledge. I wasn't saying that everything man now uses to negotiate his way through life and the universe was gifted to him by aliens- in fact you made reference to the pyramids, I never incorporated that into my original statement at all. I am saying that, objectively, without bias- in my opinion, it is entirely possible to indicate we have had interactions with ET's in the past.
Actually I swap out ET for advanced pre-ice age civilisations at times depending on the circumstance- as both represent the same to me. The development of man as we know it, as vetted and sanitized by conventional channels appears to have had some kind of external influence.

Thanks for the conversation.

Connie

@ All

I can't come out to play until I get my newspapers wrapped for tomorrows delivery. We got them a day early cause of New Years Eve.
Hint hint LOL If I had help I could get done faster and can't wait to show off new news article that blows a hole in the evolution theory.

They found some teeth in Isreal that screws up the whole illusion on evolution .

Waldo

@ Connie

I assume you referr to the recent teeth found in a cave in central Isreal. But, before you get all excited, here is a qoute from Sir Paul Mellars, a pre-history expert at Cambridge University who has examined the teeth:

Sir Paul Mellars, a prehistory expert at Cambridge University, said the study is reputable, and the find is “important” because remains from that critical time period are scarce, but it is premature to say the remains are human.

“Based on the evidence they’ve sited, it’s a very tenuous and frankly rather remote possibility,” Mellars said. He said the remains are more likely related to modern man’s ancient relatives, the Neanderthals.

May I ask you something, why is it after the tons of evidence to support evolution people that don't like the idea, for what I deem personal reasons such as religion and the tendency toward human exceptionalism, will grab small and as of yet unsubstantiated claims to say it isn't true? They seem to only accept evidence that supports their own personal bias against the theory, as they reject tons of evidence that support the claim out of hand with no good reason.

@ Kain

I would say the example you sight could be read both ways, as mans eagerness to attribute extraordinary qualities to things he finds counter intuitive or different, or a reason why we could believe that aliens were called gods by the primitive. I never said that it nuetralized your arguement, but it in no way neutralizes mine. My point was that if they could mistake the Spanish for gods, does it really require aliens for them to think they are gods? Obviousely not, it simply requires someone different or something unexplainable. We know for instance that the Greek interpreted mammoth skulls as ancient Cyclop remains because of the one hole in the center of the skull. They saw something they could not explain and decided it had to be of supernatural origin.

Every culture that has ever existed created gods and myths, almost all of which supposedly came from the heavens. Surely you are not insinuating that they all had interactions with actual beings from the sky, are you? Of course we do not postulate that they simply had a lot of time on their hands and so they created gods and myths, thats absurd and a very obviouse straw man. Humans have a strong need to understand where they come from and why things are what they are. History has shown us over and over that if man can not figure this out he will make it up, and spend huge amounts of time and energy on it. In fact he will, and often has, given his life for it. I will say that the Sumerians were somewhat unique, yet not exclusive, in saying that they had walked amongst these gods and known them on a personal basis. But, that is far from conclusive proof of aliens or gods. Until I see something that can not be attributed to mans abilities at the time, which are far more sophisticated than what anyone wants to admit except for those that have actually studied these cultures indepth by visiting there ancient homelands and studing their ancient records, I will not go as far as to believe in magic or aliens intervening.

As far as my intentions for giving the facts I gave, I did not mean to overwhelm you or your arguement in any way. My intention was to show you proof that it is not so outlandish to attribute the astronomy and mathematics nor agricultural practices of the past to the primitives that I and the vast majority of historians, scientists, archeaologists, etc. believe were responsible. That doesn't necessarily mean we are right, it means that we have just as much if not more chance of being right than the AA guys.

You say you are not saying that all of our modern mathematics and scientific tools were given prehistoric man by aliens. Then what are you saying? You said earlier, "ET’s had a hand in our formative development (not necessarily saying genetically- rather astronomically i.e dogon tribe,mathematically, agriculturally etc)" Well all of the mathematics we use now are based on the mathematics of the ancients which was much more advanced than what I think you give it credit for being. For proof referr to my above post. As far as astrology, we have documented and clear evidence of the Greeks, Egyptians, Mayans discerning amazing things about astronomy by observation and the mathematics they developed as well. Does this mean that ET definitely did not help them, no. It does mean that that is a huge step of faith to take and one that most educated professionals are not willing to commit to, for good reason. Occam's razor states that one should not increase, beyond what is necessary, the number of entities required to explain anything. This is why I and most other scientists will not commit to the ancient astronaut theory.

As for your critique of science and the fact that egos, careers, and money are on the line, I could say the same for these types of theories. They assume that anyone that supports the norm are brainwashed or sheep out of hand, without ever considering that perhaps this is our informed and well founded opinion. Yes, scientists and archeaologists can be smug and dismissive, but so can these AA guys. The fact is that no one wants to dedicate their lives to research that they believe in with all their heart, and then have someone tell them they are wrong.

Dan

UFOs are real. I saw one. I cannot prove it. I have nothing to gain by telling you I saw one. I used to beleive in UFOs, now I know they exist. I did not and will not watch this documentary because... The idea that a technology capable of travelling millions or billions of light years distance in a very short time, or even through different dimensions, only to come to earth and crash seems kinda far fetched. I doubt these crafts have ever crashed. And human kind certainly cannot take one down. Think about it. "We travelled from the other side of the galaxy, survived time, cold, space, radiation, our enemies, supernovas etc.. only to come to earth and our damn glipple glopper just quit and we are all going to die when we crash in the desert! Damn governement cutbacks buying generic parts again!"

Farren

@Dan

this is an *extremely* common fallacy of those who like to think they apply rational or scientific thinking.

they have a belief (one of yours: "The idea that a technology capable of travelling millions or billions of light years distance in a very short time, or even through different dimensions, only to come to earth and crash seems kinda far fetched.") and they either ignore or attempt to discredit by any means possible (including lying) any evidence that refutes their belief

more beliefs: "I doubt these crafts have ever crashed. And human kind certainly cannot take one down..."

evidence like in this occurance and many others in the past clearly refutes these beliefs/ideas. so why continue to stay in them? your choice of course. just wanted to point this out because it's a *very common* thing for people to do

Dan

It's not that I dont agree ufos exist or that people exerience encounters. I do not lie or stupidly try to falsify someones eye witness accounts. For example, I do not try to convince someone the ufo they saw was a helipcopter, when they know damn well it was not a helicopter, so do not accuse me of being so stupid, close minded and ignorant. Do not call me a liar. If you open your mind to logical thinking, it does not make sense that a technology so vastly superior to our own could travel anywhere they like, but for some mysterious magical reason they crash when they get to our special planet. I am not saying it has never happened. I am saying, it does not make sense. I do not have beleifs any more, beleifs are a form of blind faith based on imagination, or testimony at best. I have an open mind to think outside the box, or beyond the realm of the norm, and when i see or hear something, I consider all the facts and make sound logical decisions. I have no doubt governments are covering up ufo experiences, I just find it strange that these vastly superior technologies are so accident prone. And, if they do not want us to find their technology upon a crash, don't you think their crafts would be made to completely self destruct to avoid recovery and reverse engineering by a potentially harmfull life form? Ever think about that? Do not accuse me of the blatantly stupid, ignorant, arrogant, lying charachter of the 50's and 60's cover up mentality!

Dan

how can you shoot down a craft that flies faster than any weapons on the earth? If they have the capability of shutting down our nuclear weapons, avoid radar, fly at will wherever and whenever they like, change directions in mid flight at any speed they like, tell me how you think we can take one down. And, why would you dare to try?

Farren

@Dan, I didn't mean to make my wording sound like accusing you of lying or other things. Your comment (57) just touched upon something extremely common so I was speaking in general, for many people. Many of the people who label themselves as skeptics tend to do those things. If you don't, good. Didn't mean it personally.

"how can you shoot down a craft that flies faster than any weapons on the earth?"

they don't *always* travel at extreme speeds, do they? just like airplanes don't fly at mach .85 as they are on final approach. there have been many strange things. or...replace "strange" with, no one has sufficiently explained them from a position of authority, so they are in a gray area. i've heard that at Roswell in '47, it may have been a shoot-down or a crash. not sure. but i've also heard of other situations with shooting and crashing.

also, there is not just 1 species that has been seen. a wide variety, in a wide variety of craft shapes and likely intelligence. so it's a very complex thing.

"And, why would you dare to try?"

to get their knowledge and technology

TMCD

@ all u guys

'Rhetoric' - is rather addictive (rather common). What TMCD wants is to see you (brilliant minds) juggle the cards in a way that makes dying children and dying elders feel a bit better . Talk is in the by and by cheap - and death - well - I don't know either.

Weather Christian or Athesist all we have is to comfort us is how we perceive. At the end we all are accountable and dependant on our faith of which we believed or Do not Believe.
EAch of us have to walk that path alone. The only comfort we have is our faith and what we lived by. How we live is how we shall die and what we take with us as solace.

Talking Rhetoric is the way we learn from one another. We use each other to bounce the words from within us to see and understand the thoughts in our perceptions. We are a mirror inmage of ourselves when we relate to each other.
We also form new thoughts from others perspectives. If we are fortuante then we help each other grow.

No thought is good or bad , it all works toward the goal of understanding.

The first thing I would try to relate to anyone dying is that this as we know life is not all there is. This is just part of who we are. This is just the physical body and experience. Death is not an end but a beginning.....

We were death before we were life and that part of us must of liked whtever it was that we are because look how we as humans are impelled to find out from where we came and who we are. Thats cause we naturally know there is more to ourselves.

I think the most top number one question is the grandfather of all questions. Who Are we ? and thats what we are here for . we are to discover in ourselves who we are.

You have to find out for yourself who you are TMCD, you can't wait for others to give you your answer. It is a personal solo journey at the end.

kain

@walkdo

I'd like to continue our discussion, regrettably the luxury time I had yesterday is not time I have now.
You're welcome to surmise I'm "bowing" out of our discourse, as a general point I hope nothing I said was taken in a condescending or insulting manner I'm simply interested in the concepts and take none of it on a personal level, all the best (or until next time).

kain

@waldo

Actually I do have a little time on my hands now (24 hours later) so I would say;

I agree with your statement the example of the Sth Am indians could be viewed both ways, so we can conclude that.
As you recognize the attribution of supernatural qualities (i.e god status) to something different or unexplained is based on an actual phenomena, of which your example of the mammoth skulls being misinterpreted as cyclops is interesting, I'm not however educated in the basis of this explanation and would have to say in of itself it is by the virtue of ockham's razor a theory ascribed to explain in conventional terms why they believed in the existence of cyclops (not saying I don't think it's plausible if not extremely likely,but simply that it is evidently only the prevailing theory based on the ACCEPTED information AVAILABLE). Returning to my point, in the instance of the reaction of the indians to the conquistadores- yes they reached for an explanation based on the information they had BUT they HAD a pre-existing "myth" of pale skinned/bearded people visiting them in the past in which to verify it against (who purportedly imparted knowledge that enabled them to build their various pyramids and other incredible structures, use advanced methods of irrigation, understand the concept of "0" mathematically and retain various other aspects of a "high" society that was baffling when taken in context of their level of sophistication when Cortez et al dropped anchor).
What this suggests is actually not necessarily that aliens specifically were their "gods" but based on their own mythology (and as is obvious by my previous statements I do believe elements of origin stories, fables etc may well be based on actual phenomena- not all however) the coincidence of claiming an association with beings in their distant past that by coincidence happened to mirror the Spanish's own appearance is somewhat incredible. As I mentioned I do interchange the ET origin theory with the pre-ice age civilization theory as to me the outcome is the same (I don't accept large portions of so called A A theory incidentally- I'm not a cheerleader for it, but I do keep an open mind because there is a lot of compelling information to at least challenge the conventional paradigms), that there is substantial evidence- providing you do not automatically assume the position of mainstream science is always correct and that the use of ockhams razor involves all variables and not simply the ones considered viable within an overall accepted framework, that at least some ancient cultures had a hand up with their development (not all of which were successful long term either, there is evidence from both Sth Am & Egyptian history by example to indicate the earlier generations grasp of architecture, mathematics etc appeared to be keener than future generations - as a brief example which I'd be interested in you explanation of; the Giza pyramid I believe is the oldest true pyramid in Egypt and also the most advanced, the more contemporary constructions do not meet the level of sophistication in its design, this in itself is counter intuitive to the idea of the continuing advancement of prosperous civilizations).

No I'm not insinuating anything but making observations. Yes it is absurd to dismiss the religious/mythological/historical traditions of early civilizations as having too much time on their hands. It is also equally absurd to say that every text by every culture that is capable of baffling works of engineering and possess by evolutionary standards the exact same brain capacity as you and I, are manufacturing complete works of fiction when describing interactions they record with beings they describe as gods,right down to attributing their responsibility for the creation of various structures etc, all of which to fill the vacuum created by mans desire to know his origin and place.
Appreciate your inclusion of the Sumerians incidentally, as another example off the cuff look at the christian prophet Ezekial and his description of being whipped up somehow in a phenomena he described as "wheels within wheels" and taken around the solar system by God and his angels (check it out, the wording can legitimately in my opinion be interpreted as describing ascending up into space, passing through the atmosphere and then looking down upon Earth from orbit...well it can for those who do not automatically dismiss it as fiction/deluded visions).
There are other layers to this argument that involve multidimensional conciousness I will say, that I think you referred to with the Sumerians descriptions of where the gods came from and not that its all about ET showing up in his spaceship, or planet x.
The Egyptians also claimed descent from people of the stars/skies and kept meticulous records of bloodlines as they claimed their pharaohs were themselves literal relatives of the gods. These deluded, naive, unenlightened people also made the Giza pyramid and the Sphynx (yes that is sarcasm, not intended toward you). Not to mention the fascinating occult knowledge they possessed within their mystery traditions (of which certain greek philosophers, including plato and pythagoras were initiated- and of course were seminal in continuing occult societies throughout the ages), but I digress.
Yes I wasn't personally overwhelmed and I apologize because I unintentionally accused you of using a technique that I have seen (on occasion) people representing the side of "science" apply to basically stupefy those who had opposing "uneducated" opinions, with the volume of numbers and facts thrown around, that at times do not even accurately reflect the thrust of the argument, but can still bog down the interaction of its discussion because the recipient isn't well versed in tools of polemics (debating/ constructive arguments).

You have demonstrated proof without doubt of the legitimacy of ancients having forged their own tools of knowledge and reason, absolutely. And I appreciate you not dismissing out of hand the possibility of ET (or pre-ice age) involvement in our past.
Again with ockhams razor (perhaps I never paid enough attention at the university class's I did go to, or the various things I have read before and after that referred to it, to fully grasp its meaning-I'd honestly say that is a possibility), however for example; you yourself believe in the (likely) reality of UFO's (I use the term in it's purest sense and not specifically flying saucers with probe grasping greys at the controls...), to accept that even the tiniest percentage of these could be intelligently controlled phenomena goes against established scientific opinion- therefore either you are taking a "leap of faith" with your reasoning (not using the principle of ockhams razor and thereby basing it on subjective thoughts/feelings) OR, your interpretation of the necessary particles to the argument of UFO existence involves accepting the reality of the phenomena itself. In other words by using (selectively?) ockhams razor you find that intelligently controlled unexplained aerial phenomena must on an existential level exist, by reduction of the entities involved in the conundrum to only what is necessary.
The point I'm making here, is that the application of ockhams razor presupposes some basic assumptions as to the framework of the question. If that is in doubt, or contested then it does not really hold as a means of substantiating validity to a given argument. The nature of the entities involved in the proposition would have to be agreed on first.
As in I don't think the framework of archeology and history (etc) even recognize what others would suggest as evidence for the A A (and pre-ice age) theory. And not because the evidence holds no merit as an objective proposition- but because it does not adhere to the preset architecture of the "working theory".
I think the further removed you get from math and physics (immutable science) into the more interpretative sciences, the more you find underlying status quo's, unassailable truths and jigsaw puzzles that come with scissors...I don't believe all the information and evidence re: mans ancients history has been properly incorporated (or even allowed to be) into what is called history.
This is what I was referring to with the ego's, reputations, money side of things and yes A A proponents are equally vulnerable to it, however it is not they who as a "society" of conventional science have shaped and are responsible for what we see and believe about our world today.

(If I seemed to miss something you had put to me sorry, I've been working on something else as well and it's getting late...brain fatigue).

jack1952

It was meant as a joke. I had just read your comment about mass hysteria when my wife started belly aching at me and I started to chuckle.

Connie

@Jack1952

We know you were joking BUt I am still laughing at my own view of your statement # 39 and #41 . I put them my own 2 and 2 together and figured you went under the bed to hide from wife and she found you anyway. They werent Aliens under your bed , instead it was angry hysterical wife LMAO

duck

@Waldo

You are correct.. If I was an alien and knew how I would be treated by the humans if I was discovered, I would do my best to stay hidden also.

On to a different tack. We are spending millions [maybe billions] of dollars to discover life on other planets. Say that we discover that life and it was intelligent. If we travel to their planet and the residents of that planet treated us the same way that it is stated that we have treated them, the powers that be would probably declare war on that planet. Our governments are so arrogant that the 'do as I say, not as I do' syndrome will automatically kick in and things won't be any different than when one earth country has a problem with another country.

On another point.. We were watching a documentary on PBS involving the search for life in space. At one point, a scientist stated that they were pointing their detection equipment at a group of stars that were 650 light years from earth. Any signal that they might have received would be 650 years old. duuh.....

WTC7

@ Waldo and @ kain,

I have been following your discussion with interest. You both are presenting some really good arguments in support of your theses and I thank you both for them, it was of use to me personally. And I hold a great interest in the subject of UFOs.

In my own opinion, the alien visitations in the past are a certainty. And if there is an agreement here, as it seems there is, on the possibility that extraterrestrials are visiting the Earth nowadays, there is no reason not to allow for the same possibility throughout the history of human kind. There are plenty of indications that this may have been the case in what is currently considered the realm of legends, mythology and religious beliefs.

But in my own conviction of past (and current) visitations, I would still not attempt to speculate as to the reasons why they are/were here and to the extent of their influence over humanity and its achievements. Because, that's the best we can do - speculate.

The UFOs are a reality, but at this stage we simply don't know the answers to the questions of what their purpose or their intentions may be or may have been in the past. For all we know, it may not be us that they are interested in at all - they may be coming to check on the well being of the humpback whales here :-).

It has been a pleasure to read your thoughts guys :).

Waldo

@ Kain

No, I am not applying ochams razor selectively. I have personally witnessed a ufo of such a nature that there is no other logical explanation than it was intelligently controlled and able to do things far past our current technology. The only other explanation is that the powers that be have managed to hide scientific theories and knowledge for long enough to make and operate a craft of such capabilities. Becuase this theory evokes more complication and conspiracy than the alien theory I discard it in favor of believing in the possibility of alien visitation. I also never said it was impossible that the primitiove descriptions of gods was in fact based on alien visitation, I said it was less probable than the assumption that their desire to explain the unexplainable produced these myths.

As far as your tone, I do not appreciate it in the least. I never once insulted you or your veiws by calling them "absurd", even if that is the way I feel. This conversation has turned ugly because I refused to give your ancient alien theory the validity you desired. My suggestion is that in the future you do not make such a juvenile attempt at sounding unaffected or indifferent, it is obviouse that the scientific communities denial of these theories has put you off. Yet you try to patronize my education and use sophisticated verbage to appear larger than this type of petty need for validation from the professional scientific community. Just believe what you believe and lay off the failed attempts to belittle others that believe differently.

I believe it is very possible that there was alien visitation in the past, I simply do not believe that ancient myths or structures are evidence of these visitations. We have plenty of proof that the ancients were capable of the things they did without needing alien intervention. If you choose to reject these proofs or theories thats your business, but they are no more absurd than your own beliefs. Now, since I have no interests what so ever in getting into some kind of "who can insult whom without sounding like they are doing it" contest with you, I bid you a nice day.

kain

@waldo

?
I honestly wasn't attempting to patronize your education, as to my verbiage, yes granted I do actually have a habit of over wording what I say and it can detract from the nature of what I'm saying.
I also never said or intended to insinuate your beliefs were absurd, the ancient alien theory is not "mine" and everything I've said to you (including the apology for unintentionally suggesting you had used a bamboozling technique of facts/figures) was in the spirit of objective, open minded discussion.
I didn't say or imply that you thought the position I was representing was absurd either, you had said to suggest mans creation of myths/religions was because of too much time on his hands was absurd and an obvious straw man- I agreed, I then said to suggest all mythological/religious texts were complete works of fiction was also absurd (this was intended as a general statement). My fundamental point is there are elements to the A A/Pre ice age theory that are compelling and that mainstream science isn't always right with the theories it presents as facts- if that sounds absurd then so be it.
I wasn't seeking any personal validity, I was however attempting to validate the possibility that components of the A A/Pre iceage theory do have merit, at least from a conceptual point of view- as the scientific community do not always have the answers despite their attitude as if they did.
In saying that I have immense respect for the scientific establishment in what it has achieved and cannot for a moment reduce the huge volumes of time, labor and thought that goes into its deliberation, but obviously I am critical to aspects of how it conducts itself, I mean this as a whole and not directed toward every proponent of science, at all.
I did not intend and was not aware beyond over wording and becoming enthusiastic in what I was saying that I was being what you suggested.
Granted I initially felt somewhat as if what I was suggesting was being categorically dismissed- and as such pressed the point as I thought it was at least worthy of objective consideration.
Regardless nothing I've said was directed in any way as a personal affront, that goes utterly against my belief in constructive argument.
I respect your education and this was the reason I began a conversation with you, the fact you've seen a UFO is awesome as well (in my opinion).

Anyway peace.

@WTC7

Thanks for the feedback man, I just get very tired of seeing people state outright without any real knowledge that someone else is JUST WRONG BECAUSE- that's why I enjoyed talking to waldo because he is coming from a position of knowledge and is willing to discuss it.

jack1952

@ connie

HaHa !!! For a while there I didn't think anyone caught that.

jack1952

@ Waldo

Any government agency that tries to dissect a representative of an alien species should have his head read. To antagonize an obviously advanced race could be suicidal. They could station themselves on the moon and take pot shots at us at their leisure.

If they do sit on the moon maybe they could tell us if there is a golf cart moon buggy kicking around.

Robyn

Im starting to think that if these sightings and evidence are real they may be getting ready for another mass extinction here on earth. If you think about our history as a species, it isnt very tolerant of other cultures. We have obliterated just about every indigenous society we have encountered, converted their belief system, destroyed their environment as well as their way of life and turned those that survived our onslaught into prostitutes and alcoholics.

What if these craft are crashing to Earth because our ‘enlightened ones’ are shooting at them and every once in a while they get lucky and hit one? There seems to be a recurring theme where the military are one of the first responders to the crashes, remove the evidence and then make a cover story. If this is the case how much more tolerant will they be?

If there are advanced civilizations out there observing us, it just may be that they are deciding whether to welcome us as new members to the interplanetary voyagers group or give us the ultimate thumbs down.

Waldo

@ Kain

Wow, I really stuck my foot in my mouth that time. Sorry, I obviousely took you the complete wrong way. I also never meant to dismiss the AA theory out right, only to say it has its faults. You have my apologies and need not offer any yourself, you have performed admirably sir. Peace to you as well.

P.S. If every proponent of the AA theory was as civil and effective as yourself at debate and discussion it might very well get the objective attention it deserves. Kudos.

@ Jack1952

I agree, but still think our pride and arrogance would defeat our intellect in this matter. Man has always destroyed things in his pursuit to understand them. I see it constantly in the field of archeaology, though things are getting better as technology becomes more subtle and effective. Still we destroy much of what we find simply to date or better understand it. It is something I am very adamant about trying to correct.

jack1952

@ Waldo

If the stories of alien abductors are to be believed, arrogance is not exclusive to the human race. How dare they abduct anyone and then conduct scientific experiments on them without their consent. They have also killed livestock and dissected them at great cost to farmers. The vandalism caused by crop circles is another crime committed by aliens. In all, aliens may have more to apologize to us for than we do to them.

Connie

@ JAck1952

LOL , Since they are so intelligant I supoose they must be socialized and we can take them to court for Damages. Perhaps we may Have a( UPS ) United Planetery System someday.:-)

Yup Im still here! I guess they don't shut the phone off on weekends! Hurray ! another weekend of TDF Doc's and Lots of fun !

Nakor4200

Much of what we see about ufo's in the media is stupid people trying to have their 5 mins of fame. And another portion of what we see is intentional disinformation on the part of gov's. Just know, that there is ALOT more to aliens than the authorities are letting on or want us to know.

Connie

@ Nakor4200

Come on cough some of your info up. You can't just leave us hanging. You'll have some who won't believe ya and some who will believe everything and then you got the rest of us who just want to bite on that apple no matter what.( curiousity killed the Cat ) Ahh you just cant torture us with half the story...... Please tell.

jack1952

@ Connie

They are still hiding under my bed. I don't think the government knows about this yet. I need more tin foil though. I hear this nagging voice telling me to do things that would be out of character for me to do. Don't tell Nakor4200. He could be an informant.

Connie

@ Jack1952

(L M A O )

Shhhhh.. Be quiet JAck they can hear you. Quickly! Hind behind my Skirt and crawl up in between the boxspring and mattress.
Dont breathe! I will tell them you were picked up already.
Nakor is an informant, You are not really crazy. Trust yourself he knows things that others know not.My crystal ball tells me and I see it written on the unwaxed moon.

ProudinUS

Come on you guys. Leave Nakor alone. He's not the only one who heard the subliminal messages in the movie "ET"! LOL

jack1952

@ Connie

It's hard not to breathe hiding behind your skirt.

Connie

@ Jack 1952

Jack sorry for you ! I just made and ate Kielbasa and hanover beans with brown sugar and bacon for our heavy early meal.
Poor jack ! You aint safe with wife nor your protective behind the skirt friends.
You might as well let them aliens take you. Its gotta be the best scenario yet. Maybe Proudin USA will be there when you get there. ...@(LOL) ProudinUS

ProudinUS

Beaming up!

jack1952

I just don't want them performing weird sexual experiments on me. By all accounts they seem to be very homely creatures.

ProudinUS

Ya, so was "Alf" but I think he was a pervert.

jack1952

@ ProudinUS

Anything that homely has to be a pervert. He used to scare my kids.

7andrew7

Its not a question of whether life exists elsewhere, it is a question of how much and what kind---

Drew

If there ever will be an alien encounter, I'm sure the first encounter will be terrible due to the fact that "we" as humans always seem to dissect every "alien that is spotted roaming the planets surface " minutes if not hours after it is reported...

Lol what are the odds that one of those aliens was a possible "Mesiah/Leader" of their race... payback could be quite a bitch!

But that's all what if! :) I plan on enjoying tomorrows sunrise, and coffee all the same, invasion or not!

Cyberbard

Or rather - where?

deanharrington

Let's see ... the US, Russia, China (possibly), Japan, and now, Brazil have them. This is getting to be quite a circus!

rawkidd

I see your point, and agree. Now it's about thinking what these countries have in common.

Mark

Lets see here..its 1997 and no one had an actual video camera to take real footage of such a capture...I dont think so...LMAO

Sami Nozawa

yes
but thoz guys are from The US Govermant.
they have what ever they want.

Jose Manuel Ataide

I agree (from a certain point of view). Don't forget, though, that there were also footage of the 9.11 (Pentagon) and the U.S. Gov took it away so the world will never know what really hit the building. One thing's for sure: that wasn't a Boeing or an Airbus. Unfortunately, the Americans are still great "cover-ups".

Willy/Will

Holy Shit. I'm from the U.K and I never even heard of this until I seem this film. what I find strange is if Aliens had the means to even travel to our Solar system, then surely they wouldn't just crash land, if you can travel at light speeds I don't think you would end up crash landing? Also sounds to me as if maybe some of these creatures weren't even captured and missed as three girls saw one after the event and nothing has happened to this one? This, along with the Hessdalon lights, the events that happened in Suffolk at the Military base and many more credible stories, it just gives you the feeling that maybe different types of Aliens from different Worlds are visiting here and not all of them will be Benevolent.

Can I also just add, at the Hessdalon valley, they lights are of course very strange and still unexplained. But what is even stranger is two locals were going hunting for Mousse in an isolated part of the Valley that would not be easy to maneuver vehicles. They come across a large rectangular piece of Terrain (it was wet, marshy, tough terrain) that had been completely cut out of the ground and moved to one side revealing the under-soil. The soil was cut 40 centimeter deep and the size and weight was nearly 4 tonnes. This was not done by human hand, this was a machine cut and something lifted this out of the ground leaving no natural marks, the base of the crater was also perfectly cut, which seems impossible, as we would try and pull the rest out leaving stress, but this was not the case here. So you've got a valley that experiences all kinds of Light Phenomena and now pieces of Earth that is being cut out of the ground, sometimes the lights hover over a certain part of the Valley that the Scientists found to be an Ancient Sulpher mine. If you were an Alien on another Planet, would you not also investigate the Soil and Minerals of the Planet for obvious reasons?

Their is just way to many stories and dead-set proof that its only a matter of time before one of these beings make themselves known officially. Hopefully it is the more Benevolent one and they make contact with the people and not the governments of the world.

Jose Chachi Garcia

we are the only ones!!!!

Jordan Stevens

Sounded like Zeta Reticulan pets got loose.

Jordan Stevens

They pride themselves on how well they can control disinformation. And wow, they do a good job of it. The majority falls for it, but its not a vast majority and less and less everyday.

Timmy Suckmeister

I'm scared. Hold me?

Jose Manuel Ataide

So this was n 1997, right? Nearly 15 years ago, that is, and nothing happened since then!? If this is true, how could "they" keep so many witnesses silenced all these years? I mean, what else does it take?

Josh Goldberg

Go shave first! lol

PAUL ELF-IS

Hi, I just want to make a little point here because a lot is mentioned about the phenomenal speeds of these craft and yet they are described as silent. Surely if they were going at such speeds they would break the sound barrier? Therefore making one hell of a racket?

PAUL ELF-IS

Hi, I just want to make a little point here because a lot is mentioned about the phenomenal speeds of these craft and yet they are described as silent. Surely if they were going at such speeds they would break the sound barrier? Therefore making one hell of a racket?

poodiddles

Guess you are new here... Sound barriers apply only to winged craft. These ships also slip into the water without splashes and current or wake...

Jimmyjackcorn

goddamn... i've always believed people do see strange things at times, but i've always figured it was usually the military testing different technologies in secret, because a large majority of sightings happen near military bases a lot of the time. Then you always have the military telling people they didn't see what they think they saw.. This case in Virginha though, they supposedly really did captured bodies from that crash, i mean you can go look up old coverage from local newspapers and stuff from Brazil at the time.. Kind of makes you wonder this one

Jimmyjackcorn

Got to love them old fbi guys.. After a major attack by the us government on itsself, the fbi is out there going from buisness to buisness in DC stealing video footage from people so the real story can't get out there... Oh, and the Newburg sting they pulled off as well, that was just beautiful that was.. Nice to know the fbi is out there framing people and creating fake terrorist plots so they can then pretend to bust them. I don't get why American's are not out in mass numbers demanding the fbi, cia, federal reserve, and numerouys other scandalous government forces be disbanded at once.. I mean they are using tax payers dollars to pretend to foil fake terroerist plots that they create themselves, all for the sake of making American's believe there really is something to worry about out there, besides the US government.