Hello All! I have been reading this thread with some interest and I am no expert in KM or Aikido, BUT I am studying both right now! To put my 2 cents into this, I just want to relate an experience I had in KM class. I was going through one of our pistol disarm techniques and somehow or the other I got into a lock with my partner, of course keeping with our KM state of mind I immediately FLOWED into another technique, what suprised me the most is that it was an automatic reflex that carried me into a SHIHONAGE takedown. It worked with awesome effect On the flip side, I have used ATEMI in my Aikido that basically came from things that I have done in KM. I agree that it depends on the person on how they use or combine their art. There is no "Better" art, my opinion, when it comes to defense. I have been in alot of fights in the New York city public school system, and I have to tell you that I did get into it with a BJJ guy. This was awhile ago, before I studied MA and when he went for an arm bar with his legs, don't know the exact name, I bit his damn ankle! He let go alright! Then I ground and pounded Like I said, you can be surprised how an art's technique can suddenly appear in your other practices. Nothing should be bashed or dismissed until you have the experience and the MATURITY to look at them with an eye for what they offer.

Thanks for the insight. You know thats one of the most frustrating things about forums like this. People tend to skip back and forth across that line between play and real, recreation and combat. Seems as though a thread will start-out all serious and such and suddenly someone pipes up that they were only playing around. On the other hand, a thread can start out playful enough and the responses are playful only to be met with a comment that the originator was talking about real combat information. Seems like we ought to have a separate area for people who are serious about combat ---- or at least a smiley of some sort. Lately I have not been taking much of any of these threads as particularly deep or insightful. No offense but a thread like this that talks about using a technique (one factor) on a "friend" (another factor) of 280 lbs (another factor)and assuming that no injury should be entailed strikes me as being---- well--- kinda senseless. I mean, how many people come from a planet where this happens just a whole such that one is going to use an international venue to get to the bottom of this? In Hapkido we train as though we were learning to use a gun and the idea is that you never take your "gun" out of its holster unless you intend to use it. Theres no such thing as "sorta" firing your gun. Its all or nothing. Are there not other people here who train the same way? Thoughts? Comments?

In the Aikido that I train under, we work hard to make sure it is as realistic as possible. We have a variety of people that bring their previous experience and styles to the dojo. We have wrestlers, boxers, kickboxers, kartate, tae kwon do, jujitsu, phillipine MA, iadio, and more.

We start our with Shin shin toitsu with its more static atemi and larger movements. From there the progression is to Aikiki with more economical movements and more atemi from nage. The attacks from uke come more direct and less telegraphed. There is greater emphasis placed on randori also. The last step is inyo (combat) that harkens back more to aikijitsu. Less locks and more joint destruction, knock out type chokes, and permenant damage.

We start with shin shin because of its emphasis on Ki as taught by sensei Tohei. Of the 3 it is also the most difficult to pull off. As we progress, the aikiki is more economical, but does add some energy to uke's attack and inyo does not necessarily wait for uke to attack (2 or more attackers specifically).

This is not a traditional aikido school as our belt structure is very simple (white, 3 grades of brown, black) and the individual can study which of the three they want to concentrate on after reaching 1st brown in shin shin.

As to the origianl post, keep practicing your basics and concentrating on ki. The struggle is not with the opponent but within yourself. When I tested for 1st brown, my uke (who I had only met once before and had not worked with) was 240 lbs at 6'3" tall. I am 180 lbs and 5'9". I was not doing very well at first while testing the basic techniques. My instuctor caught on to this quickly (we also tape all testings). After taking a quick break and reminding me to keep center physically, mentally, and spirtually, I came back and was able to perform much better. The key I believe was to not look at uke as my opponent but as my oppurtuniy to practice and relay whtat I had learned. Uke was no longer a threat, but a gift.

Quote:.I am not suggesting that these moves never work, but that they don't work effectively under certain conditions, or at least that the probability of their effectiveness is lessened by larger, stronger people, who can resist you, drugged individuals who feel little pain, very experienced fighters etc.

In a real life combat situation, it is very messy, explosive, and fast. Your opponent is not static. He is moving, trying to harm you, and is pumped up. It would take a very high level of skill to use such moves in this case. My claims are based on experience, my teacher's lessons, and the feedback of police that he taught.

This goes for any style of martial art, even Krav Maga. It's said here over and over, it's not the art, it's the artist. Coming from a hard style background (Kenpo), I find Aikido extremely effective, if used how it is intended. A 70lb person is just as easy to off-balance as a 300lb man, how you approach it, will vary.

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Yes, Aikido has been modified by some of Ueshiba's students. that is how Yoseikan came about. Minoru Mochizuki , the founder of the system, modified some aspects to meet the challenges of modern arts like SAVATE, and BOXING. It is a style that is akin to AIKI JU JUTSU. The Aikikai style of Aikido that is taught today, with very soft motions, is NOT the way it was supposed to be taught.

With what Aikido teachs, it would be unwise to teach the art hard...you'd end up with plenty of broken wrists....just because it's TAUGHT soft, does not mean it's intended to be applied that way. For example, Iron Hand training, you use natural power when striking the bag, but when it comes time to "apply" the strikes, you use your whole body power. The reason styles are taught slow & soft is to train the persons body on the small details of the movements (the torking, proper angle, etc).....

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All I'm saying is that for self defense, you don't want to gamble with a tool that is probably not going to work.

See above when I mentioned it's the person, not the style that fails in self-defense.

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In Aikido demos, the attacker is usually not that aggressive, and he knows how to roll and fall. Also he is usually co-operative and does what he is expected to do. This may look very lovely, but it is not for real. Sorry, that's just the way it is. If I'm going to attack you, I'm not just going to let you grab me, or turn me the way you want, we may end up in a clinch, and go to the ground. If I get the upper hand i'm going to pummel you. But these are the things that you don't see in Aikido. It's too controlled.

Again see the above when I mentioned training. It would be careless of the instructor to have their students perform joint locks, manipulations at full force & speed. Doing to it slow teaches the mechanics safely. As for the partner falling on purpose, how else do you expect him to fall? You want him to crack his tailbone, or twist his ankle??? Having them fall safely & purposely is for their protection (and yours as a teacher, don't need to be sued now do we?)...as for demo's the purpose is to show the art, having a resisting partner would cause issues, because 9 out of 10 times to teacher has the students demo....if they aren't greatly skilled yet, the moves would look sloppy, the purpose is to bring people into the classes.

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Believe me, I loved Aikdo with my life. I thought it was THE ULTIMATE martial art. And to be honest I still respect it, and I still think that it has some good things. But i would not depend on it for my life in a street battle.

Then it seems the true essence of Aikido eludes you.

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Why go through the motions to try and execute 4 or 5 moves for one technique to control your opponent, when you can do it in TWO??? Do you really want to give your enemy who might kill you that kind of time and oppotunity??? I hope not.

Again your stuck on how it looks in class, when performed during a TRUE fight, you aren't going to go in slow & gently push them. It'll be quick & painful (for them)....I don't understand how you fail to realise this?!?!

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Krav Maga is a scientific martial art. It gets the job done. And while it may not have all the trappings of choreography and finesse that Aikido has, it WORKS!

All styles work, if done properly.

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In 3 years of Aikido, I couldn't defend myself with what I learned...oh sure I could use those moves in a controled setting, but I don't think a real life fight would be won with Aikdo alone.

Then it seems Aikido is not made for you. And thats fine, everyone isn't meant for every style....

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I agree that Aikido has noble intentions, but it is not realisitic. Your mugger, or your girlfriend's rapist does not want to be your friend. Evil must be restrained, but sometimes it has to be beaten into submission, or you or your loved one will die.

This is for both who posted against Eyre's statement regarding ground fighting & weight.

In a total reality situation, he is correct to a point. Just because you can tap out a bigger partner in class or in a ring...doesn't mean you can perform that on the street. Besides in the ring, your opponent doesn't out weight you by that much. For example....I've trained in BJJ for a short time while taking Kenpo....I grappled with a variety of sizes....I went up against a new student, I had the upper hand the entire time. A tiny mistake allowed him to go into the mount, then because of him out weighing me by 50 or 60 pounds proceeded to what I call "Shamu" me. Meaning he layed flat on top of me sinking his ENTIRE body weight on me. The positioning of him, had part of his chest smothering my face, making breathing almost impossible. So I ended up tapping out. He bested some of the black belts, my teacher a time or two. He went on to compete locally, and won a few fights. He only trained for a month....size is VERY important w/ JJ...you can only have so much leverage on the ground. One slip or hesitation ends it quickly.....

Instead of drawing out quotes from your post, I'll say this, I agree with almost everything you say. However, even though in my mind I consider myself a practically minded martial artist, I've studied, read, sparred, practiced, etc. for over 25 years and I still take a mixed martial arts class, I cannot shake my interest in Aikido. I am currently taking Aikido and sometimes mentally find myself shaking my head at the techniques and training methods. I guess I enjoy the traditional japanese type training environment and the mental challenge the art presents.

Is this thread still alive? Anyway, one more comment on the original question..

Ideally aikido utilises the energy of the attacker. which means that your training fellow makes initiative , attacks, and by doing this he "emits energy" that you could use in turn to apply aikido in order to redirect the attacker's force against himself, to take him off balance.

If there is no attack then nothing happens. But whenever there is a real attack we can use aikido. The challenge is to understand all the elements that are required to construct a "perfect" aikido implementation. In addition to the formal techics itself, these include things such as timing, correct positioning in relation to the attacker, relaxation, self confidence, good posture, understanding the meaning of contact, ki flow, "mushin" etc. To be able to apply the technique with all these elements in place you just have to practise years. Slowly the same basic stuffs what you begin with turns into real aikido, with a lot of practise.

Maybe a good starting point is to observe what kind of attack and energy your partner gives to you that you can use to take him off balance and then then proceed with some basic technics. If he does not attack, do not try to force him , just wait, otherwise it leads to wrestling and it is not aikido..