Irving v. Lipstadt

Transcripts

I think, My Lord, that I have stated on several occasions 1fact, to the question of the mixed marriages and mixed 2races was a thorn in the side of the Nazis because they 3did not know how to treat them, which side of the line to 4put them. 5 I cannot keep on, in a book which is for 6publication, coming back and reminding readers of things 7that the intelligent reader will be carrying in his brain 8anyway. 9MR JUSTICE GRAY: No, Mr Rampton was asking you about the 10passage at page 388, I think. 11MR RAMPTON: I was, yes. 12A.
[Mr Irving]
Well, I think that the lines, about 10 lines down, where 13Goebbels is quoted as saying: "For the time being that it 14be concentrated in the East, undoubtedly, there will be a 15multitude of personal tragedies, but this is 16unavoidable". We then go straight on to talk about the 17March 6th conference. 18 I am making it in a way that a responsible 19writer should. I did not want to put the whole contents 20of this 10 page memorandum into a book at this point. 21That would have been acres of sludge again. 22MR RAMPTON: Mr Irving, I am going to put it once more and 23I cannot go on making speeches through questions which are 24never answered. The fact is you that you led the reader 25in this passage to believe that what was discussed at the 26conference on 6th March was the fate of the Jews

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1generally, that that then went to Hitler, via Lammers, and 2Hitler made a ruling that the fate of the Jews generally 3was not to be considered or discussed at that time. That 4is a total distortion of the evidence which you had before 5you when you wrote that. 6A.
[Mr Irving]
I totally disagree with you, Mr Rampton. The evidence of 7Bohle, that there was talk there of delivering the Jews to 8the East like so many head of cattle, that is no longer 9talking about the mixed marriage problem. They are 10talking about the overall Holocaust in the way that I have 11accepted it can be defined and perceived. 12Q.
[Mr Rampton]
If you can find in this memorandum which you have cited in 13your book reference to the general question, please show 14it to us, otherwise that is my last question. 15A.
[Mr Irving]
Mr Rampton, I have referred to the fact that I do not just 16rely on one document. I do not jump from mountain peek to 17mountain peek. I look at all the surrounding hills as 18well. 19MR JUSTICE GRAY: There we are. That is the Schlegelberger 20note. 21MR RAMPTON: I think, my Lord, that will do. 22MR JUSTICE GRAY: Thank you very much. 23MR RAMPTON: My Lord, I was not intending to embark on anything 24new at the moment. 25MR JUSTICE GRAY: I think the plan is we have your witness so 26he is not kept waiting.

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1MR RAMPTON: As Professor Cameron Watt is here, he had better 2give evidence. 3MR JUSTICE GRAY: That is what I think so, Mr Irving, if you 4would like to revert to your role as counsel? 5< (The witness stood down) 6MR IRVING: Can Professor Cameron Watt be called? 7MR JUSTICE GRAY: Yes, of course. 8< PROFESSOR CAMERON WATT, sworn. 9< Examined by MR IRVING.10MR JUSTICE GRAY: Professor Watt, would you be more comfortable 11sitting down? You are welcome to sit down. 12MR IRVING: I was going to make precisely the same suggestion, 13my Lord. (To the witness): Professor Watt, thank you 14very much for coming today. You are appearing, of course, 15under a witness summons. I want to make that quite plain 16to the court and you are not appearing voluntarily, so no 17odium can attach to you for coming and being called for 18the defence, for my defence, in other words, for the 19Plaintiff in this action. 20MR JUSTICE GRAY: Shall we introduce Professor Watt and ask him 21about his background? 22MR IRVING: Yes. Professor Watt, your name is Donald Cameron 23Watt? 24A.
[Professor Cameron Watt]
It is. 25Q.
[Mr Irving]
You are Emeritus Professor of International History at the 26London School of Economics and Political Science?

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1A.
[Professor Cameron Watt]
Yes. 2Q.
[Mr Irving]
How long were you teaching at the London School of 3Economics? 4A.
[Professor Cameron Watt]
From 1954 to 1993. 39 years altogether. 5Q.
[Mr Irving]
39 years a Professor of History at the London School of 6Economics? 7A.
[Professor Cameron Watt]
I did not have the rank of Professor until 1971, but I was 8on the staff. 9Q.
[Mr Irving]
You enjoy the reputation of being something of a grand 10gentleman, a doyen, of the historical profession in this 11country? 12A.
[Professor Cameron Watt]
I think it is very difficult for an individual to say what 13their reputation is in the minds of other people. 14I certainly can only say that I have held a number of 15senior positions in international organizations devoted to 16historical research. 17Q.
[Mr Irving]
Thank you. You describe yourself as an historian, writer 18and broadcaster. You are all three things? 19A.
[Professor Cameron Watt]
These are the various sources of my income, yes. 20Q.
[Mr Irving]
You were educated at Rugby and at Oriel College in Oxford; 21is that correct? 22A.
[Professor Cameron Watt]
Yes. 23Q.
[Mr Irving]
You served in the Army in the Intelligence Corp.? 24A.
[Professor Cameron Watt]
I did. 25Q.
[Mr Irving]
And that you were with the British troops in Austria in 26the occupation forces after World War II?

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1A.
[Professor Cameron Watt]
From 1947 to '48, yes. 2Q.
[Mr Irving]
1947 to '48. Would you tell the court, Professor Watt, 3what you were engaged with in the years following your 4Army service? 5A.
[Professor Cameron Watt]
Following my Army service, I had three years reading 6politics, philosophy and economics at Oxford because only 7that way could you deal with 20th century history at that 8time; and I indulged myself in the usual activities of 9undergraduate. That is to say, I wrote, I played opera, I 10ran the Poetry Society -- I had a number of activities of 11that kind. 12Q.
[Mr Irving]
And you became a member of the Foreign Office Research 13Department? 14A.
[Professor Cameron Watt]
I was attached to it, yes -- I do not think I was ever a 15full member -- from 1951 to 1954, and then again on a 16part-time basis from 1957 to 1960. 17Q.
[Mr Irving]
Yes. Interesting. So you are quite familiar in a way 18with the kinds of documents, Foreign Office, diplomatic 19documents, that we have been looking at in this court this 20morning, for example. The ones with the serial numbers, 21the six digit serial numbers stamped on the bottom? 22A.
[Professor Cameron Watt]
The ones with the serial numbers are the ones -- those 23serial numbers are the way we recorded them on our index 24cards. They represent the serial number of the individual 25film and the frame number of the particular page. 26Q.
[Mr Irving]