Short story long, I wanted to complete my main as an "Archmage," that is all DoMs to 50. But in order to prepare for this, I wanted to get the cross-class ability "Quelling Strikes" from Archer (which would be useful on Black Mage and better than nothing on Summoner). But that's a level 36 ability, so I'd be at Archer for some time. There was a nifty ability on Marauder called, "Mercy Stroke" that would make the leveling experience all the more enjoyable. But that was a level 26 ability. Which meant that this was the perfect opportunity to try tanking.

My first try in Sastasha was miserable. It's one thing to "know" what to do, but when faced with actually doing it, it's pretty darn stressful. I marked targets, but unfortunately, the group I went with couldn't care less. I was with an archer who just shot at whatever he felt like, even pulling the next group mid-fight. It meant the poor healer got pounded on a lot because I couldn't establish hate properly with what few moves I had to work with, and I really wasn't comfortable with pacing their use to begin with. Even on the final boss, I died right away because the healer didn't heal me at all for some reason, but they still won without me. I felt pretty superfluous.

But that didn't deter me and I resorted to watching a few Youtube videos on how to tank so I could improve my technique. Subsequent runs went a lot better, especially after running through a few times so that you knew exactly what to expect. The nice thing is, there was never any wait. I'd be shocked if more than a few seconds went by without the DF granting access. Needless to say, friends were grateful to tag along if they were at all interested in crawling a dungeon just because getting in was so instant.

I did have to be a "diva tank" once when a summoner I PUGed with in the level 16 dungeon insisted on using topaz carbuncle, and was pulling whenever and whatever he felt like as though it was his role to tank. He had the nerve to complain he was doing it because the pace was too slow, ironically not getting it that it was slow because he was tanking instead of damage dealing like he should have been. In any case, I wasn't there to play backup tank to some stuck up summoner's carbuncle so after a few awkward combat sessions where hate was flying all over the place, I said I'd leave if he didn't stop it, and he replied he wasn't going to stop it. So I left. Ha! [/diva] I'd be shocked if they didn't make it without me, which is probably why no one cared, but I wanted to learn to tank damn it, and all I'd learn in that group was how to do it wrong.

Thankfully, I've never experienced any bad healers. And most of the damage dealers were all to happy to follow the lead. But I noticed if you make it seem like things are running too smoothly, some of them start to get cocky. They'll run ahead and pull things and expect everyone else to clean their mess, and when they do, they only grow bolder. That just gets annoying because they think they're speeding things up, but they're really just dragging things out more as mobs go running all over the place out of control and putting all the strain on the healer.

I haven't found a good way, yet, to get through to people when they start doing this. I've asked them to stop. I've explained why they shouldn't. But they just get defensive, or worse, try to get revenge and sabotage the group. I don't want to get all "respect my authroitay" on them, it's just, the best way through the experience is with the tank grabbing the hate first and what they want to is inefficient and disruptive.

But, I did get Mercy Stroke, and it was awesome on Archer while it lasted. It's a shame I couldn't keep it on Bard, but I'm 3 levels away from Quelling Strikes. And then the quest for Archmage begins! But you know, after the experience, I may just pursue a new character devoted to tanking, after all.

Carbuncle tanking doesn't work for long... So that Arcanist is asking for it. A few more dungeons in, he will have learned a whole list of bad tricks he then has to unlearn... while getting less chances because his queue is longer as a DPS than it is for a tank.

Somewhere in the later 20s I think, the dungeons stop coddling people. I've been told it was Huakke Manor, but I found that easy. Then again our group was coordinated. I think what they do first is start hitting harder and harder, ramping it up... and then by Sunken Temple they're also adding in special mechanics and split up duties for people...

Sastasha though - yeah... tank is kind of optional there. I'm not fond of that, but I guess its needed these days as a 'weeding off of WoW' moment. I remember back when even the level 15 dungeon in WoW required tactics and solid tanking... But that hasn't been the case since about 2007/8...

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But I noticed if you make it seem like things are running too smoothly, some of them start to get cocky. They'll run ahead and pull things and expect everyone else to clean their mess, and when they do, they only grow bolder. That just gets annoying because they think they're speeding things up, but they're really just dragging things out more as mobs go running all over the place out of control and putting all the strain on the healer.

This is why many tanks by 50 are "control freaks" and "Primadonnas". It is the main reason I try to not use the DF.

But I noticed if you make it seem like things are running too smoothly, some of them start to get cocky. They'll run ahead and pull things and expect everyone else to clean their mess, and when they do, they only grow bolder. That just gets annoying because they think they're speeding things up, but they're really just dragging things out more as mobs go running all over the place out of control and putting all the strain on the healer.

This is why many tanks by 50 are "control freaks" and "Primadonnas". It is the main reason I try to not use the DF.

Just my opinion but tanks more or less should be control freaks. I'm more than happy to guide a new tank through a dungeon I may perhaps sleepwalk through but I do my best to 'let them run the show'. Trying to upstage in a pt is like trying to show everyone your own accolades at someone else's award party. Tanks that are allowed to learn and grow make future play better for everyone.

I haven't found a good way, yet, to get through to people when they start doing this. I've asked them to stop. I've explained why they shouldn't. But they just get defensive, or worse, try to get revenge and sabotage the group. I don't want to get all "respect my authroitay" on them, it's just, the best way through the experience is with the tank grabbing the hate first and what they want to is inefficient and disruptive.

It's just something you pick up after experience. Pulling aggro and keeping it isn't something that's very difficult to do and marking mobs is largely useless unless there is a specific target needed to be slept or otherwise CC'd.

It's easier if people let you have time to get aggro in the early levels when you're still learning, but it's not even really necessary in lower levels. If you can't pull and keep aggro in mid levels it's probably time to reassess your rotation or think about a career change.

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cocodojo wrote:

Its personal preference and all, but yes we need to educate WoW players that this is OUR game, these are Characters and not Toons. Time to beat that into them one at a time.

There is also something that I found interesting when I got my PLD relic and started tanking to have faster queues. I've always been considerate, so I pride myself on "fine play."

It's interesting how many mages cast on you directly when you move to aggro range. It's like they couldn't do it soon as they know the mob dies, (Like I do when I cure) or wait till after hate is established. They cast regen or stone skin right when you aggro, having you run around gathering stuff while trying to get hate on the one the dps are attacking.

Dps that attack any random monsters. Nuff said.

I've seen several Tank drama queens, and now that I've experienced the frustration first hand, I have to say I understand.

Am I the only person that Stone skins right when a mob dies and right after the mobs start hitting so I cure less, while lessening the risk of pulling hate later?

Cure spam and then saying, well tank better.

When ever I see a frustrated tank from now on, I'll simply understand and move on. You want to tank? Go for it.

This morning I was in AK. I have 'ok' gear for that place: full hoplite and DL leggings with Ifrit's weapon and meh shield with some DL accessories. It was with a group from Balmung (legacy server I think?). They had a BLM with a relic and vanya stuff, a BRD with Ifrit's bow, and a WHM with relic.

I think they were trying to speed run but it was obvious that their methods weren't working. I always had regen popped on me as I went to pull instead of stoneskin like any intelligent healer knows to do by this point.The bard would attack any target and run away from me. In fact, all three (yes, the WHM was DPSing) would begin DPSing as soon as I got within range to scorn > flash: not even giving me time to group up the mobs so I could establish threat.

The BLM didn't use sleep. The WHM didn't use sleep. Neither the BRD or BLM used quelling strikes: ever. It was like they were purposefully trying to drive the tank crazy or push their limits. Or maybe they were just bored of the instance? I don't know but if I had been another person that didn't have a main job that wasn't a tank, I wouldn't have been happy with that dungeon.

I don't think many WHMs realize how much threat reduction they can gain by using repose on mobs that are currently not marked. You think it would be simple: tank is getting hit for less damage because mobs are being slept, mobs that are slept are being hit by non-damaging flash meaning they're already stuck to the PLD with scorn DoT ticking on them if it was done initially...really not a hard concept I think.

Eventually it got down to where the BRD would pull and he'd pull 2~3 groups. I'd have to pop hallowed ground just to stay alive and I couldn't get aggro off the WHM spamming medica 2. So I'd have a marked target that would get ignored. The WHM would DPS another mob while the BLM would spam AoE or focus another non-marked mob. Essentially, you're fighting with 3 other people for aggro on 3 different mobs which is just a nightmare given the ramp-up time for combo due to GCD limitations.

If they maybe added +enmity abilities onto these cooldowns like rampart and sentinel, it would be better. Or, increase the enmity generation for flash/scorn. Or get rid of GCD for fast blade and possibly savage blade. Or maybe make provoke function differently.

I don't know but tanking for people like this isn't really my idea of fun. I'm pretty much just gearing tank to take to events where my FC needs a tank maybe instead of my BLM. I think I'll stay away from DF for a while.

Luckily, server groups have been pretty good when it comes to tanking so there's that. DF just brings out the worst in everyone.

They cast regen or stone skin right when you aggro, having you run around gathering stuff while trying to get hate on the one the dps are attacking.

HitomeOfBismarck wrote:

I think they were trying to speed run but it was obvious that their methods weren't working. I always had regen popped on me as I went to pull instead of stoneskin like any intelligent healer knows to do by this point.

I do have some insight on this. It doesn't matter when Stoneskin is cast (it will last 30 minutes if you leave it), it's pretty much a walking Provoke sign to the person who cast it. So when I've cast Stoneskin on a tank as a healer, if they don't Flash right away, the mobs they didn't claim will automatically direct their hate at me and run my way. So it really depends on the tank's style. If they don't normally work on the crowd's hate immediately, they'll end up chasing mobs around. So I've actually let up on casting Stoneskin on the tank for mere trash mobs and left it for single target foes instead just so the crowd control is a bit easier to manage.

Also, on the subject of sleeping foes, it also depends on the tank's style. As a tank, you can use Flash on sleeping mobs, and you totally should just to have a grip on them when they wake up (especially if someone accidentally wakes one) or at least just have them on your enemy list so you can see if you still have their attention. Otherwise they'll just beeline to whomever slept them. Sometime I avoid crowd control as a healer because I think some tanks don't realize they can hold hate on a slept mob, and it's easier for me to heal the tank who's getting pounded by everything than try to deal with 2 or 3 mobs jumping down my throat at once when they wake from sleeping and everyone else has totally forgotten about them.

This morning I was in AK. I have 'ok' gear for that place: full hoplite and DL leggings with Ifrit's weapon and meh shield with some DL accessories. It was with a group from Balmung (legacy server I think?). They had a BLM with a relic and vanya stuff, a BRD with Ifrit's bow, and a WHM with relic. .

I do have some insight on this. It doesn't matter when Stoneskin is cast (it will last 30 minutes if you leave it), it's pretty much a walking Provoke sign to the person who cast it. So when I've cast Stoneskin on a tank as a healer, if they don't Flash right away, the mobs they didn't claim will automatically direct their hate at me and run my way. So it really depends on the tank's style. If they don't normally work on the crowd's hate immediately, they'll end up chasing mobs around. So I've actually let up on casting Stoneskin on the tank for mere trash mobs and left it for single target foes instead just so the crowd control is a bit easier to manage.

I think that is the same point the above posters were making. If Stoneskin is cast at the wrong moment (when the tank initially pulls the group but has not yet established enmity on all of them) it makes the tank's life a lot harder. it is best to either cast stoneskin before the pull is initiated, or after the enmity is established.

Quote:

Also, on the subject of sleeping foes, it also depends on the tank's style. As a tank, you can use Flash on sleeping mobs, and you totally should just to have a grip on them when they wake up (especially if someone accidentally wakes one) or at least just have them on your enemy list so you can see if you still have their attention. Otherwise they'll just beeline to whomever slept them. Sometime I avoid crowd control as a healer because I think some tanks don't realize they can hold hate on a slept mob, and it's easier for me to heal the tank who's getting pounded by everything than try to deal with 2 or 3 mobs jumping down my throat at once when they wake from sleeping and everyone else has totally forgotten about them.

We are having a similar discussion over in the Arcanist class forums. As I have not yet played the tank classes yet in FFXIV, but was a career PLD in FFXI I have a question: Is there any reason not to use flash on a consistent basis?

I would think that a tank should always be using flash whenever there is more than one mob to build enmity on. Whether they are asleep or not, whether the other DPS are building threat or not - use flash!

It is especially important for SMNs using Bane. I can knock out a significant portion of a mobs life, all while it is asleep - all you need to do is keep using flash to stay ahead of me on the threat meter. Then, by the time we get to wake up the last mob in a group of three, i have already DoT'd about 20-25% of its HP away and build up a ton of threat.

Edit: P.S. How do you get the person's name to show up in the quote box? Mine just says "Quote" whereas when I see other people quoting posts, the name of the person being quoted shows up in the top left corner.

I do have some insight on this. It doesn't matter when Stoneskin is cast (it will last 30 minutes if you leave it), it's pretty much a walking Provoke sign to the person who cast it. So when I've cast Stoneskin on a tank as a healer, if they don't Flash right away, the mobs they didn't claim will automatically direct their hate at me and run my way. So it really depends on the tank's style. If they don't normally work on the crowd's hate immediately, they'll end up chasing mobs around. So I've actually let up on casting Stoneskin on the tank for mere trash mobs and left it for single target foes instead just so the crowd control is a bit easier to manage.

I think that is the same point the above posters were making. If Stoneskin is cast at the wrong moment (when the tank initially pulls the group but has not yet established enmity on all of them) it makes the tank's life a lot harder. it is best to either cast stoneskin before the pull is initiated, or after the enmity is established.

It's not the same point. It doesn't matter if Stoneskin was cast 29 milliseconds before the pull or 29 minutes before the pull, the person who cast Stoneskin on the puller will have the initial hate of the links in a pull if they are anywhere in the vicinity. The timing has nothing to do with it.

It's not the same point. It doesn't matter if Stoneskin was cast 29 milliseconds before the pull or 29 minutes before the pull, the person who cast Stoneskin on the puller will have the initial hate of the links in a pull if they are anywhere in the vicinity. The timing has nothing to do with it.

Are you sure about that? Something just doesn't seem right. I will have to play around with it. Not saying you are wrong, it just hasn't been my experience.

Before the tank initiates the pull, he is not on the hate list of any of the mobs. You casting stoneskin (or any spell for that matter) on the tank when he is not on any mob's hate list, should not generate any hate on the healer. Especially if you do this 5 minutes before the pull (or 29 as per your example) there should be no reason for the secondary/tertiary mobs to instantly target the healer when the main target is pulled.

Again, I could be off and would need to see it in action. If what you are describing is actually the case I might even go so far as to call it a bug and report it to SE.

Wow I see some healer hate going on.. First off throwing a heal/stoneskin/regen or anything on the tank is not good as he first goes to engage, it pulls hate and initial hate is bad. Problem is allot of tanks dont wait either.. Hell I have done some dungeons where everyone is off and running before I put up protect...

How many tank watch to see where the healer even is or dd's watch the healer.. I have dd's like archers asking for a heal and they are way out of range.... How many watch how much mana the healer has before engaging.. One thing this game VS FFXI everyone seems to be in much more of a rush in dungeons. Very little coordination. For some of us this is our first time through these dungeons and they are more complex than a bcnm...

Also WHM sleeping is not usually a good thing, it pulls massive hate, when that mob wakes up who they coming after, at least in FFXI? It also takes time that a healer may not have... I also dont know how many times I have tried to sleep something that had dia or bio on it in FFXI... ugg...

I have not been in a situation yet to sleep in FFXIV but I am guessing it is the same in this game.. When it is like two mobs it aint so bad but multiple makes it tough..It can be useful in certain situations too but usually is best left up to someone else.

It's not the same point. It doesn't matter if Stoneskin was cast 29 milliseconds before the pull or 29 minutes before the pull, the person who cast Stoneskin on the puller will have the initial hate of the links in a pull if they are anywhere in the vicinity. The timing has nothing to do with it.

Are you sure about that? Something just doesn't seem right. I will have to play around with it. Not saying you are wrong, it just hasn't been my experience.

I'm sure of it. In the Stone Vigil, for example, if you Stoneskin the tank as the healer, and the tank runs into the Ice Sprites that appear out of nowhere, they'll immediately go after the healer even though the healer hasn't done anything and wasn't the one who triggered them. It's because Stoneskin has redirected their hate to the caster.

I'm sure of it. In the Stone Vigil, for example, if you Stoneskin the tank as the healer, and the tank runs into the Ice Sprites that appear out of nowhere, they'll immediately go after the healer even though the healer hasn't done anything and wasn't the one who triggered them. It's because Stoneskin has redirected their hate to the caster.

I seem to remember that regen does the same thing. Could the mechanism be the same?

Edit: P.S. How do you get the person's name to show up in the quote box? Mine just says "Quote" whereas when I see other people quoting posts, the name of the person being quoted shows up in the top left corner.

Click the "Quote" checkbox if using the Quick Reply, or "Quote Original" in either post method.

I'm sure of it. In the Stone Vigil, for example, if you Stoneskin the tank as the healer, and the tank runs into the Ice Sprites that appear out of nowhere, they'll immediately go after the healer even though the healer hasn't done anything and wasn't the one who triggered them. It's because Stoneskin has redirected their hate to the caster.

Hmmm... This is interesting. I don't play healer a whole lot so I haven't really noticed this. Good to know though for those times when I am asked to go SCH over SMN. I assume this applies also to groups of mobs that spawn when the dungeon begins (i.e. do not have a spawn after a certain trigger)?

Edit: Thanks Kirby, got it to work

Anyone have a response to the other question I posed about Tanks and flashing slept mobs?

Stoneskin cast DURING the pull definitely generates enmity. Sleeping mobs allows the tank to take less damage, allowing you to cure the tank less, allowing you to generate less enmity as a result, and is generally better TPS for the tank since he doesn't need to constantly switch targets.

If your tank does not flash the slept mobs, though, I wouldn't even bother.

Stoneskin cast DURING the pull definitely generates enmity. Sleeping mobs allows the tank to take less damage, allowing you to cure the tank less, allowing you to generate less enmity as a result, and is generally better TPS for the tank since he doesn't need to constantly switch targets.

If your tank does not flash the slept mobs, though, I wouldn't even bother.

Your test doesn't demonstrate what I'm talking about. Try it again but in a dungeon. Watch what happens to the links.

Ok so I'm going to be pretty blunt. I do a lot of research and testing on the classes/jobs I play because I take a lot of interest in doing my job well.

Can you please show the same interest in your job and do these tests? It would actually be an awesome post to stick in the WHM/CNJ/SCH forums.

That way you can come back here and be all like, "Hey Hitome McNubcake! Look what I have here. Suck it!"

*rubs your results in my face*

Otherwise, I'm just going to generalize and say...if stoneskin didn't pull threat on a single mob, it probably isn't going to on multiple. :3 Or, I could do the test and come back and rub mine all in your face. Or just use anecdotal evidence until you get off your butt and do it!

Wow I see some healer hate going on.. First off throwing a heal/stoneskin/regen or anything on the tank is not good as he first goes to engage, it pulls hate and initial hate is bad. Problem is allot of tanks dont wait either.. Hell I have done some dungeons where everyone is off and running before I put up protect...

How many tank watch to see where the healer even is or dd's watch the healer.. I have dd's like archers asking for a heal and they are way out of range.... How many watch how much mana the healer has before engaging.. One thing this game VS FFXI everyone seems to be in much more of a rush in dungeons. Very little coordination. For some of us this is our first time through these dungeons and they are more complex than a bcnm...

Also WHM sleeping is not usually a good thing, it pulls massive hate, when that mob wakes up who they coming after, at least in FFXI? It also takes time that a healer may not have... I also dont know how many times I have tried to sleep something that had dia or bio on it in FFXI... ugg...

I have not been in a situation yet to sleep in FFXIV but I am guessing it is the same in this game.. When it is like two mobs it aint so bad but multiple makes it tough..It can be useful in certain situations too but usually is best left up to someone else.

Edited, Oct 10th 2013 4:33pm by Nashred

As it so happens, your guess turns out to be completely wrong. Sleep pulls barely any hate in XIV, and since XIV has a lot more fights against many weaker mobs, it can be one of the most effective forms of damage mitigation to shut a few of them down completely for a bit. In general, sleep is significantly more usable in this game, especially since it doesn't have a cooldown other than the global cooldown.

You're right that it's even better to have a thm/blm cast it, but if you don't have one in your group, don't count it out as a whm. Oh, DoT effect don't prevent sleep in XIV either, btw.

I think I had the wrong idea about Stoneskin. It seems the links only attacked the caster if it was cast after the pull had started, in which case the whole crew other than the original pull would charge. This must have been what I was thinking of. But if you do cast outside of combat, there doesn't seem to be any hate whatsoever, not even a mention on the enemy list.

For the sin of being wrong on Zam, I will accept my punishment of being down-rated on every post I've made in this thread, as is the customary flogging.

I think that is the same point the above posters were making. If Stoneskin is cast at the wrong moment (when the tank initially pulls the group but has not yet established enmity on all of them) it makes the tank's life a lot harder. it is best to either cast stoneskin before the pull is initiated, or after the enmity is established.

As a healer my experiencevwith this is that my tank likes to start running towards the next group while I am in the middle of casting stoneskin or adloq or succor or protect, or else I cast them immediately and then he stands with his thumb up his butt while a 30 second adloq is counting down and only runs in when it's at 1 or 2 seconds left, so it falls off right before he takes any hits.

I know as a healer that having a damage shield land on a tank just as he has drawn aggro but before he has built up actual enmity is bad, but there's some disconnect with tanks who think those spells cast instantly and don't provide any window between my mp hitting 100% and pulling for pre buffs. It is possible that this is why a tank notices stoneskin landing at exactly the wrong time.

Edited, Oct 11th 2013 1:37am by KarlHungis

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