Learn that they know what you know, and if they don't know that you now that they know what you know, exploit them. If they do know that you know that they know what you know, then understand that they know that you know that they know what you know, and exploit them.

#5

16th July 2008, 8:12 AM

bob_tiger [2,741]

Poker at: full tilt

Game: holdem

re: Poker & How do you counter those that know that you know?

Quote:

Originally Posted by ChuckTs

Learn that they know what you know, and if they don't know that you now that they know what you know, exploit them. If they do know that you know that they know what you know, then understand that they know that you know that they know what you know, and exploit them.

Lol what? haha jk, I know what you mean. For instance that 4 bet bluff vs zachvac you had?

i'm too drunk to come up with another semi-witty response...OP actually posted a good question and I'd like to respond when I'm sober. gimme like 7 hrs, brb

#7

16th July 2008, 8:26 AM

blankoblanco [6,139]

Game: NL Hold 'em

Quote:

Originally Posted by ChuckTs

Learn that they know what you know, and if they don't know that you now that they know what you know, exploit them. If they do know that you know that they know what you know, then understand that they know that you know that they know what you know, and exploit them.

If you find a decent player at the table, and you think that he just might think that you're playing somewhat well, too, the wrong thing to do is to try to fool him by being erratical. Instead, try to put yourself in his shoes and ask yourself "how is he likely to try to exploit my tendencies?"

... and then exploit his exploits.

The thing is, most decent players don't ordinarily have huge leaks. But when you adjust to another player, you're moving away - sometimes considerably - from solid play to exploitative play. This is the equivalent of a boxer pulling his arm back for extra strength to his punch. He may be achieving a harder hit, but he's leaving himself wide open in the meantime.

So, basically, don't adjust to them playing TAG. Let them try to adjust to you. Adjusting is much more difficult than just playing a solid ABC game. Let them make the mistake of overadjusting. Once they've started changing their game plan versus you, go ahead and exploit it.

If you open often in late position (and you probably should), they will start to 3-bet you light. This particular adjustment on their part is correct in theory - but almost every player I've played have overdone it leaving themselves wide open in the swing. There's quite a few players where I'm pretty sure they've adopted a strategy that can be exploited by simply always pushing when they 3-bet if the stacks are 100BB. If your 3-betting range gets too big, that's what you end up with.

That's not to say that you shouldn't 3-bet, of course. These players are playing exploitatively versus their opponents, and versus most opponents they're right. But it's important to realize that they're opening themselves up to be attacked. And it's a great thing if you manage to get them to be the ones who do that first.

tl;dr: Don't adjust to players who know that you know, adjust to players who adjust to you because they know that you know.

Wow, it didn't even occur to me to consider this. Only switched to cash 2 months ago and i don't even consider sngs as a possibility anymore. amazing...

#13

16th July 2008, 10:31 AM

Chris_TC [925]

Poker at: Pokerstars

Game: Moniez

Your question is pretty general and only matters against very strong opponents. I'll give you a quick example.

Let's say your opponent has c-bet a dry Jack high flop and you have called. The turn is an Ace, and he double barrels you. If he's good and considers you good as well, then he knows that you know that he will double barrel this scare card with most of his range.
Which in turn means that maybe he won't double barrel that huge a range. Or that he plans on rebluffing you should you decide to bluff-raise the Ace.

The vast majority of players doesn't think on that level, and you're better off not going through the hand too deeply because you may end up leveling yourself.

#14

16th July 2008, 2:38 PM

zachvac [7,835]

Online Poker at: Pokerstars

Game: NL Hold 'em

Well I'm pretty sure if you are unsure of the level of your opponent's thinking, the best move is the straightforward one, ie you have a good hand you should bet for value and if you have a bad hand you should C/F. If you know the level, just go one above.

Say for example you have 77 on a 773 board. Your opponent is unlikely to have anything, but also unlikely to believe you have anything, and he knows that you know he's unlikely to have anything, and could play back at you. Unless you know that and than you wouldn't do it without a hand. But you don't know which is which (or if he's even a level or two higher), and you think there's an equal chance he's at each level. Meaning 50% of the time he pays you off (calls/raises) and 50% he folds. Meanwhile if you check 50% of the time he thinks your slowplaying and 50% he thinks you're weak. Obviously you take the first one because you build a bigger pot. Either way 50% of the time (a different 50%, but 50% either way nontheless) you don't get paid, but the first one you build a bigger pot.

I generally figure I have to throw them a curve ball of some sort. This is me adjusting to them knowing. Problem is that my action generally comes in the form of an unexpected bet. Usually a semi-bluff as I still can't purely cold bluff.
But then they know I do this on occasion! And I get caught with my hand in the cookie jar.
SO,,, from their POV, they know that I know, but they may know more about what I know than I do. And since poker players tend to not share these types of tells, I can never be sure just what it is that they know about me, and the one time I shared what I thought I knew about another player, the info pretty much dried up and became useless shortly thereafter.

As an aside sort of, this question is probably more ring specific than tourney specific. As a tourney guy, I like that any reads I get or others get on me will be transitory in nature, and boil down to a single big question;

Did player x bring his 'A' game today?

Of course that big question is full of a lot of conditions, but for the most part if the answer to that is no, then I don't have to worry too much about what I think I know about whether or not that player knows anything about me.

huh?????

#16

16th July 2008, 3:45 PM

fin2head [100]

Online Poker at: bodog poker

Game: holdem

best thing to do

Play a varied style throughout game seems to catch off guard they cant key in on your hand at any given time. Dont telegraph.