Was my advice good? Woman vs 6 Pitbulls

So today this woman comes into the store and asks what it takes to buy a handgun in California. I tell her all the rules and she just seems in a hurry so I ask her why she needs a gun so she goes on to explain...

She lives on the outskirts of town where it's still semi rural. The neighbors behind here were raising 7 pitbulls. They have been beating down the fence so a large part of the fence has been temporarily rebuild using a flimsy chain link so now she can see into the back yard quite well. There were 7 dogs. Tuesday one of the dogs got into her backyard and was chased by three other dogs. The first dog was mauled and killed by the other three. The other three dogs prowled her backyard prompting her to call the police. The police responded " Call animal control" she called AC but it was after hours and they would be out the next day. She called the neighbor and told him to get his dogs. He did and at her request left the dead one in its place. She has pictures of the dogs in her yard during the mauling, after wards as well.

The next day AC comes to investigate takes the dead dog out and goes to the neighbors house. Magically there is only 3 dogs. None of which are in the pictures she has and the guy denies everything. She calls the police, again no help. Animal control comes out again to see if the dogs are back but the guy isnt home .She asks what she should do and he says "Get a way of defending yourself from the dogs if worse comes to worse, a gun our something"

So she shows me the pictures. They are Pits and they are big ones. She wants a handgun butI tell her its too hard to hit a fast moving target. She says shes a good shot but I sugest a shotgun instead. I show her the 870 but it's too long, as is the 11-87 and nova tactical also for giggles I show her a Benelli M4, too big and too expensive. Finally I show her a Mossberg 500 tactical with collapsable stock. Fits her right and explain how to use it and explain to her that it will kill anythign she points it at. Dog or person so she has to be really really careful.

Its 50 yards from her back porch to the fence, the fence she says is a heavy wood fence. The dogs are over 100lbs so I sugest 4 shot, 2 shot or at most 4 buck. Something in a heavy magnum for up close shooting out of a cylinder bore. Above all i advised if not not needed she should hole up , avoid shooting the dogs and call the police and animal control and avoid shooting at the dogs unless absolutely necesary.If she does have to defend herself there is no grazing or wounding. The shot will kill anything, that gets in its way or severly wound it. There is no middle ground.I guess she's also worried her smalldogs will end up like the dead pitbull and is afraid her teenage 16 and 18 year old sons could be attacked.

Sounds good, but #4 or even #1 buck seems like the best ammo choice. Might not get enough penetration with the others. Dogs are awfully tough. Recoil from a 3" magnum in a Moss. 500 will be pretty bad. They are fairly light guns. She needs good form and 2 3/4" shells should be plenty of power.

rkh

October 12, 2006, 04:52 AM

I would agree with your suggestion if the lady was tasked with clearing rooms filled with pitbulls, but otherwise I think that your patron would have been better served with a CCW handgun or perhaps a tomahawk.

It strikes me as doubtful that the lady will carry her shotgun with her each time she leaves the house, completely negating its usefulness.

The gun isn't useful if she isn't carrying it, isn't necessary if she's in the house, and is likely to be counterproductive if someone other than she is being mauled.

Mossberg makes a great shotgun, though. I hope she gets some (recreational) use out of it.

sacp81170a

October 12, 2006, 05:31 AM

:what:

If circumstances are as you described, she has a much bigger problem than just the pit bulls. The *neighbor* sounds like the biggest problem of all, and if someone is willing to lie and cover up like she says he did, I'd suspect criminal activity outside telling fibs to officials. She needs to get a lawyer's advice, in a big hurry! If she has kids and other dogs that she cares about, taking care of an attack before it can get started is the prudent thing to do. Having a means of defense in case of attack is good, making sure you can't be attacked is better.

hso

October 12, 2006, 07:10 AM

She needs to talk to the neighbor and insist he build a containment for the dogs or get rid of the dogs. She doesn't want any trouble and if he doesn't he'll do what needs to be done to control his animals. She needs to go on record as having done so.

Shotgun's the best choice for effectiveness, but those dogs are tough to put down and she should consider 00.

1911 guy

October 12, 2006, 07:26 AM

Up close, 4 shot and larger are all in the same category. However, she needs to get that additional 10 or 15 yards if she's dealing with multiple aggressive dogs. The larger shot will also give better penetration for larger animals that need to be stopped.

I was in this situation last summer, but it was only one dog and an overgrown mutt. Charged my wife several times and the neighbor was warned. I called Animal Control, made a police report and made it clear to all three parties (ac, pd and :fire: next door) that the dog would be shot on the next aggressive encounter. I shot it less than 10 feet from my back door. My wife was trying to get back into the house as the dog came after her. She had our son in her arms. Can you believe PD actually cited me for discharging a firearm? :cuss:

griz

October 12, 2006, 07:31 AM

It does sound as if she has neighbor problems rather than problems with poor gun choices. But your advice is good, unless you set her up with #4 shot. At anything much past contact distance, #4 shot is no death ray on a big animal such as a dog. At something like 20 yards I would not even expect it to stop the dog, much less kill it. Use buckshot.

And your advice to avoid shooting them if at all possible is good. The nieghbor sounds like someone who may press charges if it appeared that she "went hunting" for the pooches.

dfaugh

October 12, 2006, 08:06 AM

In general, yes, I would say you gave good advice.

First, avoid them if at all possible---and remember that "pit bulls" (I quote that, because they have become the "assault rifles" of dogs, so who knows what they tuly are--everything is a pit bull nowadays--and I'd bet she's doubling the true weight of these dogs---I had a HUGE German Shepherd, his head was above the level of my belt, and he only weighed 125--My current male GSD is really oversized, too, and he goes 111) are VERY DOG AGGRESSIVE (having been bred for dog fighting), but often not PEOPLE AGGRESSIVE. So, obviously, she and her family should be very wary, just don't get completely paranoid, and blow away any dog that does find its way not her yard. (to save aggravation and legal issues).

Besides the dogs, the gun you picked is a good all around HD gun, so even with the dogs not a part of the picture, not a bad thing to have.

But I wouldn't use smaller tha #1 buckshot, and would probably suggest 00 as being better. I can cite you acouple of real-life examples where police shot dogs (one was a case of 2 pit bulls, the other a Rottweiler) multiple times with handguns (at close range) and the dogs kept on coming. Both were finally "subdued" by a load of 00 buck at point blank range.

If Animal Control is anything like it is aroud here, the SHOULD be all over this guy, based on her testimony and evidence. They'll catch up to him eventually, when he least expects it.

280PLUS

October 12, 2006, 08:12 AM

What about a youth cut shotgun? Shorter, lighter and easier to manuver.

The coyote hunters around here use #4 buckshot.

ilbob

October 12, 2006, 08:38 AM

I agree with the poster that suggested she has a neighbor problem rather than a dog problem.

She needs to deal with it from that end, before shooting the damn things.

I don't care if the dog is dog aggressive or people aggressive, it is aggressive, and needs to be kept under tight control. Irresponsible dog owners that keep these kinds of dogs and do not keep them under close control use weasel phrases like that to excuse their own culpability.

I don't personally care much if you keep a pack of hyenas in your back yard as long as they don't get out and don't bark all night.

Pilgrim

October 12, 2006, 11:29 AM

The police responded " Call animal control" she called AC but it was after hours and they would be out the next day.

The next day AC comes to investigate takes the dead dog out and goes to the neighbors house. Magically there is only 3 dogs. None of which are in the pictures she has and the guy denies everything.
Sounds like my experiences in Kings County, CA. Animal Control had known for over a year the neighbor fed aggressive strays. One time one of her dogs bit a man riding a bicycle. Nothing was ever done other than warnings given to the neighbor.

I ended up shooting a couple of her dogs for chasing livestock.

Pilgrim

Abby

October 12, 2006, 11:44 AM

I think you gave good advice. The worst part about her situation (aside from having a neighbor who probably just needs to be smacked with a bat), is that this is a PACK of dogs.

Unfortunately, I think that's why the shotgun is the best choice. If you have a pack of dogs after you, you can go through rounds in a hurry. Worst case scenario, an empty shotgun makes an effective club.

Most of our "scenarios" don't take that into account. Limited experience, multiple attackers who are known to continue to be very aggressive even if in pain...as an old friend of mine in the service once said, "at a certain point, everything can be a blunt object."

30Cal

October 12, 2006, 11:52 AM

You don't want to tangle with that many dogs. Two people, maybe, but only if you're backed up against a wall.

springmom

October 12, 2006, 12:01 PM

Of couse there were only 3 pits left when AC came. Three of them ate the other three for dinner, sounds like :what: :fire:

You're not her counselor, you were just there to sell her a gun within the laws of CA. So all the stuff about what she should do, now that she's no longer in your store to talk to, is probably sort of too late. But of course, it's correct.

When I read your story, I wondered if she'd ever shot a shotgun before. If she puts a 12 ga Mossberg to her shoulder with pitbulls coming at her and that's the first time she's ever shot, that wouldn't be great. The recoil is going to eat her lunch, unless that tactical stock is awfully good with recoil control. At which point, she has to reaquire the rest of the targets (unless they've stopped to snack on their fallen littermates, ick) and unless she knows this gun and has practiced with it, she won't be quick enough at that.

Sort of like giving a first time handgunner a .44mag to shoot.....:eek:

I hope she comes in and lets you know how it all plays out and if so, let us know.

Springmom

justatexasboy

October 12, 2006, 12:23 PM

Im curious. Was the dog that got mauled smaller that the others and less cared for? Was it a very new addition?

It is typical to build confidence in a fighting dog by allowing it to beat up or kill smaller dogs. Sounds like this guy is trianing fighters, which explains why he so quickly hid the other (more prized) dogs. Dog Fighters will steal a smaller dog and release it in a pack, allowing the other dogs to attack it. It is very likley that the owner of the dogs was watching this happen and the bait dog happened to get away through the fence.

If they are fighters they are likely pretty hard dogs with overbuilt confidences and very high tolerances to pain. Even fatal injuries will only slow the dogs down untill they bleed out completely. These dogs dont gallop, they charge with thier heads one or two inches off the ground, its bred into them, they are very tough targets to hit when charging.

A pump shotgun can only be fired so many times in short order. Dogs can cover incredible amounts of space in very short periods of time. My advice would be avoidance. A shotgun might seem like the best choice but even loaded with 00 it will only stop one dog at full charge.

I once saw two police officers empty thier 9mm (13 rounds each) into a rabid chow. They had 40 feet of distance to work with. The dog collapsed within two feet of the first officer. I thought for sure the 1st officer was going to get bitten.

1911Tuner

October 12, 2006, 12:26 PM

I have to agree that if faced with a half-dozen dogs that are of a single purpose, you'll probably lose that fight unless you're as fast as Rob Leatham, and you have a doublestack 9X23...and even then it would be too close to call. Dogs have the Wolf's instinct to circle and attack from the rear while your attention is focused on the "Point Man."

But...And speaking as someone who once faced a feral pack alone, with a revolver, and from reports that I've had from others in similar circumstances...
As a rule, when a pack is acting on instinct, if one is shot and starts screaming, the others will jump on him and rip him to shreds. In my one experience, my shot passed through the big pack leader lengthwise (A 220-grain hard cast SWC fired in a S&W M-58) and struck one of the followers in the shoulder, sending him into a whirling, screaming, bleeding mass. In the two seconds that it took for the others to regain their bearings from the sound of the gun, they turned their attention to their stricken friend, and literally ate him alive...and were so focused that they took no notice of my hasty retreat. The pack leader hit the ground kicking, and never made a sound. Nearly 50 yards away...coming out of the woods and to my truck, I could still hear the yelping and snarling. Very ugly scenario, I imagine.

Your friend is in an untenable situation. Push the issue with the authorities, and possibly incur the wrath of the neighbor. Let it lay, and maybe be treated to the same that the unfortunate dog in the pack as described. Just recently, a 26 year-old mother was attacked by two free-roaming Pits..in her own yard. She lost an arm from the elbow down...a big chunk of the muscle in her back...and has had to undergo intensive physical therapy as a result.
The dog owner lost the dogs of course...and at last report...they were still undecided as to whether they should be put down. He was fined
100 dollars and court costs for letting his dogs run loose in the city limits.

A Google search on a Pitbull attack in Lexington, NC may bring up the details.

halvey

October 12, 2006, 12:36 PM

I called Animal Control, made a police report and made it clear to all three parties (ac, pd and next door) that the dog would be shot on the next aggressive encounter. Someone I used to know had a problem with agressive dogs in her semi rural area. Sheriff wouldn't ever come out, so I told her the same - "next time they are on my property, I am shooting them." Then all of a sudden the sheriff comes out and gets the neighbor to comply with the leash laws. It'll work sometimes.

BSlacker

October 12, 2006, 12:41 PM

She has a neighbor problem not an immediate dog issue.
Most of the folks as you describe the neighbor are on probation or parole. If you find yourself or others in a situation with a dirtbag neighbor I advise calling the local PD and talking to a Watch Commander. The cadet on the non 911 line can't help, just has stock answers. Doesn't sound like the AC are much help, maybe no laws to use. Good police know that this type of thing escalates. Watch Commanders are there for just such a unusual issue.
Give the name and address of the dude to the Watch Commander suggest he may be on probation. If that doesn't get action then pay a lawyer to write a letter to the Chief of your local agency and copy the jerk and the city attorney. Cities don't like it when they get sued for lack of action after a notice. Letters cost less than firearms and are safer to use. Getting a firearm is ok, because one needs to cover more than one issue, but please advise people to try this first or together with a firearm. You would not want to be her other neighbor and some buck shot comes through your house after an errant shot. Unlike her local AC folks I don't advise getting a firearm first.
One thing she is doing correct is pictures, they may not help everytime but keep doing it. :)

crawfish

October 12, 2006, 12:52 PM

Generally good advice. If you have the opportunity please suggest she see a lawyer about this. BTY as for #4 shot. The weapon of choice of PHs in Africa to go in after a wounded Leopard is a 12ga loaded with #4s. Have personal experience with #4s and dogs using a 20ga. I'm here dogs aren't guess that counts for something.

Skywarp

October 12, 2006, 01:33 PM

From the pictures she showed me the dead pit looked to be the same size as the others.

It was a pit bull for sure. My neighbors in OK had several Pits and they were fundogs to play with and licking machines. Loved 'em.

She has fired shotguns before and the youth cut did feel as right to her as the Mossberg.

The neighbor claims the portion of the fence that was broken and she is going to look into bracing the fence to keep them out. She said she expects the fence to be done in 2012 going at the rate he does things. I haveno idea. From the pictures the back yard reminds me of a junkyard. Clutter strewn about.

I also agree its more of a problem witht the neighbor.

As far as shotsize... my first though was 4buck. Penetration while maintaining a higher pellet count considering the dog could be closing at closer than 50 yards. I refered her to one of the older guys for adivce as well because I was supposed to relieve one of the guys in the range.

Thanks for the advice guys she'll be back in 9 days now. I told her to not let AC forget about the situation.

ceetee

October 12, 2006, 01:45 PM

I'd give a thought to recommending she get one of those bear-sized pepper sprays, also.

280PLUS

October 12, 2006, 02:08 PM

Or maybe some bear sized traps?

gunsmith

October 12, 2006, 02:12 PM

There are quite a few of thr members in the norcal area.
I'm sure one or two of us can give her pointers or visit
her house to advise and /or something.

I think if it's a pack of pit bulls it's time to get a rifle.
An AR of some sort big pits? go fer an AR10

MechAg94

October 12, 2006, 02:36 PM

I would also suggest getting pictures/video of all 6 or 7 dogs in his back yard. That way when/if he tries to hide them again, she has some proof that he does in fact have that many dogs and he can explain where they went.

I can't disagree on the shotgun. Lots of choices, but that will serve her even after the dog issue is resolved.

Exmasonite

October 12, 2006, 02:47 PM

+1 on the bear spray.

for a rapid attack by a pack of dogs, that's going to be the way to go unless she's REAL good w/ that shotty.

Also, they make ultrasonic canid deterrents... size of a TV remote but emits an ultrasonic sound that can do very well to deter them. Very focal and able to be aimed in a general area (so it's not gonna bother any pets you might own) I work at an animal hospital and our UPS delivery guy SWEARS by it. The key is to do your homework and get a GOOD one. Can't remember what type he had but he did say that they're not all created equal.

gunsmith

October 12, 2006, 03:55 PM

I fergot that norcal isn't America, so no AR's:mad:

tell her I said get a lever action 30-30!
that'll do the trick.

lathedog

October 12, 2006, 03:56 PM

Early and often. Pepper spray them ahead of time to get them used to avoiding you.

I love dogs and had a great big pit that was the greatest. But if the dogs have been abused to the point where they are a danger, then they are a real danger. Instead of a shotgun I'd go with a FAL or similar at 200yds. Screw sportsmanship at that point.

Go visit the local police and try talking to them. Get them sympathetic to your plight now, rather than try to create sympathy after the shooting starts. Ask them to take a look at the property to see if they can provide tips on how to protect yourself. Maybe you'll get lucky and the dogs will act aggressive towards the police. Letting the local police take care of business is much better than being a defendant yourself down the road.

Live capture traps and tasty hamburger, combined with a nice car ride far away, can be good for a dog's appreciation of your hospitality. Seven trips in seven days and the problem will seem like ancient history.

I am out of good ideas for this difficult situation.

LaibYechiel

October 12, 2006, 04:21 PM

It's possible that she may get a better response from her Code Enforcement Department (building, zoning, etc.), particularly if she has local laws concerning keeping more then a certain number of pets, or the keeping of junk, garbage, or debris on ones property.

The only thing worse then a BAD neighbor is a bad neighbor with dangerous or threatening animals.

I wish her good luck on this.

Peace and Blessings,
Laib

kungfuhippie

October 12, 2006, 04:36 PM

Best advice- Lawyer up lawsuits are more threatening then bullets in this situation. In California a pitbull taken in by AC is as good as dead, Don't just call AC, take the pictures there and talk to the head guys. Low level state employees won't do anything they might get in trouble for.

I was in Ecuador, unarmed, and surounded by a pack of shrimp farm dogs. They backed us up to a shrimp pool, thank God the owner came out and called them off before they all jumped me. Rabbies shots suck! :mad: After that I got a plastic BB "toy" pistol and a switchblade (getting a handgun there was not possible) that toy would send the toughest street dog running, I was hit by it through jeans once, left a bruise. better than nothing, Not a fun situation, but when dogs are in a pack they incourage each other, a pump shotgun will not be enough, Semiauto shotgun would do, if she can handle it. If it wern't ************ I'd suggest an "assault weapon" with a 30+rd mag of hp or sp ammo and a sharp bayo:evil: no handgun for a pit bull, pepper spray just makes them mad.

ambulldog

October 12, 2006, 05:54 PM

An owner who can't contain their own dogs deserves to have them taken away. Be it a pit bull or a chihuahua (which are vicious little things), I dont understand how someone can allow their dogs to get out. I have two large strong dogs and I can't imagine allowing them the oppurtunity to get out of the yard. Besides just other peoples safety, I'd be concerned about my dogs getting hit by a car or something. It sounds like the owner needs an ass beating.

razorburn

November 16, 2006, 02:27 AM

From the pictures she showed me the dead pit looked to be the same size as the others.

It was a pit bull for sure. My neighbors in OK had several Pits and they were fundogs to play with and licking machines. Loved 'em.

If they're 125 lbs like you said, they're definately not pit bulls. They simply don't get that big. They were orginally around 35-40lbs fully mature, as the american pit bull terrier, but after they become popular as a "tough guy dog" breeding has bumped them up and created some "bully pits" around 70lbs. But definately not 125.

Most people can't tell a pitbull from the couple dozen other breeds that look like them, since they're pretty nondescript, and almost any other short haired, square headed dog looks like what people think is a pit bull. It takes an experienced eye to be able to discern the different breeds. Can you find the real pitbull from the 25 other breeds shown on the following link?

http://www.pitbullsontheweb.com/petbull/findpit.html

Take 3 tries, be honest!

Imaginos

November 16, 2006, 08:22 AM

On Tuesday night (11/14), I saw a news story where Fort Worth, TX police officers shot a "pitbull" that came after them.

The TV tape showed what looked like two entrance wounds in the dog's chest and shoulder as it was being loaded into the animal control truck. The dog was still awake enough that the animal control officer used the pole leash to load it. According to the report, the dog finally bled out at the animal shelter some hours later because the shelter vet technician doesn't work on weekends.

4v50 Gary

November 16, 2006, 09:15 AM

Since the Mossberg fits her and she feels confident with it, the gun is not at issue. While the neighbor is source of the problem, the immediate concern is the dogs. That said, I hope she knows enough to take out the dominant alpha animal first. As for the neighbor, I wonder if he's got a meth lab inside :confused: or other illegal activity.

kd7nqb

November 16, 2006, 09:37 AM

I think you did the right thing all the way, for most of this on the board a 3.5" magnum might be the option but if an 870 was too big for her than thats not realistic. Also I might be wrong but even if you only sold her smaller shells, depending on the part of California I imagine it will take like 6second for cops to be there once they report of "SHOTGUN BLAST" comes in. Of course I would suggest that you ask her to take a course of some sort or at least go to a shotgun range so she can get the feel for the gun.

ZeSpectre

November 16, 2006, 09:48 AM

My advice in this situation runs along the lines of...

1) Video surveilance - Set something up and leave it running.
2) Advice call to a lawyer - Most will give a free initial consultation
3) Pepperspray "fogger" that can be kept with you (so you might be able to get away)
4) Rifle someplace where you can "fort up" and use it.

OpFlash

November 16, 2006, 10:00 AM

:what: No way I would recommend 3" magnum shells in a 12G pump to a woman, especially one inexperienced with a shotgun. Dogs attack in packs. She needs to be comfortable taking multiple shots, so she needs to learn to shoot it before a pack is running at her. She will be intimidated (and probably bruised) by the recoil. Get her some instruction on how to hold it correctly and some actual shooting practice. Tell her to use 2 3/4" shells and get a Limbsaver.

High Planes Drifter

November 16, 2006, 10:34 AM

+1 on recomending the 20 over the 12. Thats still really bad odds; her with a shotgun vs. 6 dogs, pitts no less. she may do better with an electric fence or something to keep the dogs from getting in her yard in the first place.:confused: .

I'd also recomend that she keeps a log of every contact she made with police and AC. If she is forced to shoot, and it does (will) go to court her records will come in very handy.

KC&97TA

November 16, 2006, 11:03 AM

If she doesn't have dogs of her own... may I sugest... chicken soaked in anti-freeze as a good dog detterent. I guess I don't know the laws concerning rancid poisoned meat in the yard?

I agree with the shotty, but it's doubt full she'll carry it like she would a pistol, while around the yard. I took a 111lb female to the trap range yesterday and had another small framed woman up there as well, both did good with full sized 12ga shotguns.

This is a neighbor problem, not a dog problem... but the dogs are the evil here and have been mis-managed by thier owner. In a perfect world it would be legal to dispose of both problems not just the puppy dogs.

Aguila Blanca

November 16, 2006, 12:46 PM

I can't help thinking that a handgun would be more convenient. The ideal, of course, would be a shotgun in the house and a handgun in the purse.

I also think you should advise her to get one of those game cameras, the ones you tie onto a tree that has a motion sensor and starts taking pictures when that trophy buck strolls by. She should mount it somewhere that overlooks the portion of the fence that's busted down, and use it to monitor the area. If any dogs wandr in, she'll have photographic proof.

vynx

November 16, 2006, 04:49 PM

You know this is California - I think to have more than 4 or maybe it starts at 4 dogs you need a Kennel License (at least down south it may be diff. where she is) that may be why he hid some dogs, get pic's of all 6 or 7 and send them to the AC ... they will want their money and want to enforce the kennel codes - also the USDA (federal agency) employs Veterinarians that inspect kennels and places that have live animals (Vertrinary Medical Officers).

Turn him in to the USDA - sik the Fed's on him. Send them the pictures and say its an illegal dog fighting training camp! When they do the raids they bring in everybody, FBI, BATFE, USDA, etc. I had a friend who worked for the USDA and went on some of the raids and I saw some of his pictures. They take it seriously.

Outlaws

November 16, 2006, 04:59 PM

The pepper spray stuff is a good suggestion.

But I would suggest a good knife to be carried no matter what she does on the gun issue. You can't (well, won't want to) fire a shot gun if the dog manages to get your leg. But a knife Buck knife (119 or a Zipper) would be awefully handy for a last resort. I cna't think of many animals that will stick around if their guts on spilling onto the ground.

PX15

November 16, 2006, 05:13 PM

I'm gonna get crucified here but here's my old farts opinion...

I love animals.. I believe that if you accept the responsibility of having a pet, or pets, you must accept the responsibility of controlling them..

Nobody loves your pets like you do.. Not Grandma, not the neighbor.

If you chose to have dogs, and those dogs are the ones who have deservedly, or NOT deservedly gained a bad reputation for being dangerous (and pit bulls are at the top of the current list) you are asking for trouble.

As to this specific case. I'm a believer in asking the owner of the vicious dogs ONE time to solve the problem.. After that I would never say another word to him. I would call Animal Control (if there was such a thing) and document the problem.... I live in the country, we don't have an Animal Control.. I have to be my own Animal control.. In our case I would call the Sheriff and complain about the problem to him..

After that I would never again breathe a word to anyone.. But the very next time the dogs came in my yard I would take my favorite High Standard 12ga. pump riot shotgun and kill 'em all..... (I prefer #4 buck).

If a complaint was filed against me I would say the dogs were attacking me and I defended myself..

By the way, I don't think pit bulls are deserving of the bad rep. they have. I have owned two in the past and they were sweethearts. A bulldogs aggressiveness is directly towards other dogs, not people.. It's a nature, "Alpha dog" thing.

I think you can make any dog "bad", and generally the problem can be traced back to the owner, not the breed.

I'm sneaky enough that if the owners of the "attacking bad dogs" were not home when I delivered true judgement to the dogs I would scoop the remains of those suckers up, put 'em in a large trash bag, throw 'em in the back of my truck and take them 50miles down the road to another county and deposit their worthless carcasses in the woods someplace.. I'm sure the buzzards would be appreciative.

But I'm not a nice guy, and I thank the Good Lord I don't live in some politically correct, brain dead, jurisdiction where a bad dog has more protection than innocents..

Oh yeah.. Chances are the Sheriff here would take me aside when I complained and tell me to shoot the "damn things" the next time they bothered me or my family.

Maybe it's a Southern thing?

Best Wishes,

J. Pomeroy

Vermonter

November 16, 2006, 05:26 PM

Definately want to use buck shot. A guy here in VT was charged with animal cruelty for shooting his neighbors aggresive dog with birdshot.

I bet the neighbor will watch them better once she starts carrying the shotgun around the yard :neener:

crunker

November 16, 2006, 06:28 PM

This is a real nightmare.

Thanks to California's strict gun control, this lady is going to have a hard time getting a decent enough weapon.

Shorty semiauto AK clone, or a Mossy like you suggested should be okay.

Labinnac

November 16, 2006, 07:01 PM

I have three friendly good natured housepet dogs. They live in their own big fenced in yard. I know how fast they are just playing.

If they were strange aggressive dogs with bad intent I don't think I could get more than two if I were lucky shooting my defense pump shotgun.

Dogs are surprisingly fast.

shadowalker

November 16, 2006, 07:57 PM

Seems like the best thing would be to get video of the 6 dogs and take it to the proper authorities, most places around here limit you to 4 domestic animals and in my town they additionally say no more than 2 dogs AND 2 cats.

In my opinion anything less than #1 buck isn't going to be effective on a 100 pound dog intent on doing you harm. Reduced recoil 2 3/4 #00 buck is proven on people sized animals and should work well on dogs as well and is readily available where I have yet to see #1 buck available locally. There is no reason for the increased recoil of 3 or 3 1/2 especially if she isn't used to the recoil it will cause her time between shots to go up with little to no benefit.

Also loaded with reduced recoil #00 the shotgun becomes a great home defense weapon as well, the tests I've seen show #4 buck has a good chance of failing to stop a human sized threat, #00 is proven, #1 is expected to perform at least as well perhaps a bit better.

People capable of handling bird shot loads should be more than capable of reduced recoil #00.

Bird shot is a waste of time if you are trying to stop anything bigger than a bird or a squirrel. Even at near point blank ranges the shot isn't heavy enough to penetrate enough to stop.

WolfMansDad

November 16, 2006, 08:11 PM

Had a similar situation once. 00 Buck will drop a large dog in its tracks.

She should get some light target loads and practice on sporting clays. I would have recommended a regular stock, as opposed to a "tactical" one, but you're right, any handgun would be woefully inadequate.

115grfmj

November 16, 2006, 08:38 PM

and cylinder bore will drop ANY DOG!!!! within 30 yards......especially large agressive breeds... don't ask me how I know....but that bull mastif looked like someone took a tommy gun to it after I was through (only one shot).
Around here it's popular to dump dogs in state parks....hunters run into alot of em.:fire:

Brass Fetcher

November 16, 2006, 08:50 PM

Suggest a single layer concertina fence? Or the three rolls of nasty (two rolls of concertina on bottom with a third roll on top) if the dogs are jumpers? Guns are an option, but imagine what shooting the neighbors dog will do to neighbor-neighbor relations. The pitbull owner in this case sounds like a shady character, wouldn't want anything but a deterrance-oriented relationship with them. I believe a triple-layer razor wire fence will run like $200 for 50 feet.

roscoe

November 16, 2006, 11:04 PM

Sleeping pills + 15lbs. of hamburger + a long ride out of town in a crate.

LAK

November 17, 2006, 05:31 AM

What HSO said.

I would add that she should identify the owner of the neighbor's property by full name (public records), correct address, and that all communications need to be in writing, sent registered mail or the very least certified delivery mail. Two copies (filed at home, and perhaps a trusted friend), perhaps another to an attorney. Keep a camcorder and taperecorder handy and "loaded" at all times.

I would actually recommend a side by side 12, 18" to 24" barrels, double triggers and auto ejectors. Some of the euro items coming in now are quite reasonably priced and refined. These are easy handling, quick, and an immediate followup shot is easy to master. A few shells at the ready make for fast reloads if practiced.

Also recommended is a 3" or 4" .38. Easy to shoot, effective enough, and can be carried at all times. Any long gun might be propped up against the porch or garage when actually "needed now" occurs. A newly sharpened 10" to 12" machete would be a handy item to have around as well as a failsafe or in lieu of a handgun, but she needs something on her person anytime she steps outside her doors in this case.

------------------------------------

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http://ssunitedstates.org

sorensen440

March 10, 2007, 02:07 AM

Great advice the only thing I can add is a recomendation that she practices with the shotgun
I think shotguns give some people false confidence
if she hasnt tried shooting a moving target she may have difficultys if she has multiple pits (or any other dogs) coming after her or her loved ones

also bear spray is a great idea

thexrayboy

March 10, 2007, 02:22 AM

This lady has a real problem, what gun to use is the least of them. If she is attacked and doesn't have her weapon with her she is in deep doo doo. If she goes around her property all the time carrying her shotgun she could be marked as dangerous by neighbors who report her carrying it around. If she successfully shoots an animal she could be charged with a variety of offenses such as illegal discharge etc. Even if LEO etc. don't crucify her for defending herself the neighbor who owns the beasts may decide to retaliate.
Lawsuits for malicious animals work great, if the person you are suing has enough assets to make it worth your time, and the expense of lawyering up.

All in all a tough situation. One more suggestion that may make some people mad. However you don't have to use firearms to make a dangerous animal disappear. There are plenty of other methods to render them incapable of attack. And most dogs do like to eat, she can use that to her advantage if necessary. This problem could be solved chemically.

ARTiger

March 10, 2007, 03:21 AM

The woman should call the neighbor and the police and tell them she thinks the dogs are a serious threat to her and her family and that she will shoot and kill them if in her yard again - period. Even in ************, she would be entirely justified.

Personally, I have 3 small children and live in a semi-rural area. We have some rednecks around that think it's their Rottweiler, pit bull, doberman's god-given right to roam wherever unfenced and not restrained to their property.

I shot a doberman last year who was 20 feet from my house growling at my 2 year old son who had climbed on his swingset to get away. Any animal on my property with no business being there with the capability of harming my family and acting in a threating manner will die - immediately.

Thankfully where I live, we are not governed, populated or intimidated by a bunch of limp-wristed liberals who think there's anything wrong with that.

"Dog people" take offense to that posture, but I call BS on that. If you love your animal so much keep it where it belongs. Your "teddy bear" Rottweiler is capable of killing small children and in my view it is the same as a bear or cougar in threat potential to my family - probably more so as it does not fear people at all. If it's on my property and so much as barks threatingly at me, my wife or kids I'll shoot it. Anyone who thinks that's wrong is in my opinion an idiot.

steven58

March 10, 2007, 10:56 AM

Whatever she does, she should not let any dogs ingest any of the artificial sweetener "Xylitol". Apparently this stuff is harmless to people or other animals but is lethal to dogs...

See here: http://www.coxwashington.com/hp/content/reporters/stories/2006/10/01/BC_DOGS_POISON01_COX.html

It seems that Xylitol is also available quite inexpensively on line or at many health food, & vitamin stores....

See here: http://vitanetonline.com/description/11252/vitamins/Xylitol-Packets/

Unlike other toxic substances like rat poison or antifreeze, this is only dangerous to dogs and is not incriminating, I mean dangerous to any other living thing:evil:

jerkface11

March 10, 2007, 11:07 AM

Personally I'd off the alpha of the pack while the owner is away. However if that isn't a good solution for her she should NEVER mix carbide lamp fuel and dogfood and leave it where these dogs can get it. It will react with the water in their stomachs to make acetylene gas and rupture their digestive tracts. A horrible way to go. Even worse if there's an open flame nearby.

Walkalong

March 10, 2007, 07:15 PM

Pits are great dogs. They love people and are as good with people as they are unpredictable with dogs. People are the problem. A pit made mean by people is a dangerouse animal and should be shot, along with its owner, but they won't let us do that.

I have been around literally 100's of pits over the last 33 years and they are awesome dogs. My current dog is Red Boy top and bottom and wieghs about 55 lbs and his buddy the 15 lb. miniature daschund rules the roost. He is gentle as any dog can be. He would probably let you steal my stuff out back, but I would not recommend hurting his little buddy or his family.

I shot a doberman last year who was 20 feet from my house growling at my 2 year old son who had climbed on his swingset to get away. Any animal on my property with no business being there with the capability of harming my family and acting in a threating manner will die - immediately.

Thankfully where I live, we are not governed, populated or intimidated by a bunch of limp-wristed liberals who think there's anything wrong with that.

"Dog people" take offense to that posture, but I call BS on that.
I don't take offense. I would shoot him too. Or a Pit or a whatever. Mean dogs need to be exterminated.

230RN

March 10, 2007, 07:28 PM

Shotguns, handguns, loads, are all good advice.

But I also recommend she keep a pair of good long sharp butcher knives by her front door.

We had a mild Mountain Lion Problem hereabouts, and I realized that, even with all my shooting experience, if it came to a close quarter attack, I'd rather have a good long very sharp butcher knife in my hand.

Preferably one in each hand, but I use the off hand for a good flashlight.

And don't downstab. That's for the movies. Sharp edge down, blade pointing out the thumb side of your hand.

SoCalShooter

March 10, 2007, 07:43 PM

I think your suggestions to your customer were very good. I would also recommend CLAYMORES:cool: .

She definetly needs to "HOUND" AC and PD about the situation and make sure they have it all in writing so that if she has to shoot the dogs then she has a paper trail.

stevemis

March 10, 2007, 07:59 PM

If the neighbor has a homeowner's policy and the lady can find out who they are, all it should take is a few 8x10 color glossies of the pit bulls and the man's address.

Most insurance carriers will drop a policy at the mere sight of a pitbull. It's a liability they don't want. Trying to find a decent, affordable policy after being dropped by any carrier is an exercise in futility.

I know the insurance industry keeps a nice database on it's customers, which is shared amongst all carriers. A good attorney, private investigator or even her friendly insurance agent might be able to hook her up with the details.

I prefer the "very sneaky" approach. I'm not in the insurance industry.

Steve

DReicht

March 10, 2007, 08:11 PM

If there is one thing I hate, its animal abusers. To be so cruel as to take something like a dog, which will put its life in your hands, I put that on the level of child molestation. The people who abuse animals, fight dogs, and mistreat canines don't always get the full force of the law and sometimes it isn't enough when they do.

I don't have any advice on how to help the woman, everything has been said. I just am extremely repulsed by what some people will do.

http://www.pitbullsontheweb.com/petbull/sadreality/1.php

For more information.

waynedm

March 10, 2007, 09:22 PM

Way to go on a shotgun, but 4 or 2 shot? Come on now.

jerkface11

March 10, 2007, 11:11 PM

I would think long gun wise a .357 lever action would be about perfect. Or if you weren't in california a keltec sub2000 in .40 with hicap mags.