My story

I seriously get the feeling that your parents were in an occult, can i ask? you said you lived with your grandfather for a year, where was your
grandmother and what was she like?

Im sorry but i didn't want to listen to the tape you have, being a sensitive person im a little afraid of it, especially after reading everyone's
comments on it

The song is seriously sick and twisted if listened and read in context from an adult to a child.

"Tango In The Night"

Listen to the wind on the water
Listen to the waves upon the shore
Try to sleep, sleep won't come
Just as I begin to fade
Then I remember
When the moon was full and bright
I would take you in the darkness
And do the tango in the night
Tango...
I keep the dream in my pocket
Never let it fade away
Inside, outside
No loneliness in this dream
Then I remember
When the moon was full and bright
I would take you in the darkness
And do the tango in the night
Tango...

My grandmother was interesting. She was subjected to a whole lot of EST over about a 6 month period in the 60's One of her friends had died of
cancer and the hospital "neglected" to tell the woman that she was dying of cancer. My grandmother became terrified that she was going to develop
cancer herself (she did eventually develop a rare cancer--husband was an atomic vet). Her own husband took her to a military hospital and they treated
her worries with the EST. It changed her and the story was how she nearly ruined his "career" because of her concerns as he was pulled out of SAC
afterwards. Acceptance of her being blamed for that is my major regret. Perhaps understandably, she was very quiet but could be very loving. Only
time I ever saw her strongly contradict my grandfather on anything was when I got sick one time in my early 20's while visiting there. He wanted to
take me to the base's hospital. She drove me to a doctor's office near my home, 4 hours away. I had a fever of 104 so it was peculiar. Wish I
could ask her outright why she did that instead of seeking medical attention for me asap.

My father is an atheist and my mother was raised Catholic but stopped attending church a long time ago when it lost what she deemed it's traditional
edge. No occult anything from them. My dad has pretty strong words against organized religions. I do have a lot of knowledge of symbolism,
numerology, astrology plus a heavy dose of mythology stuffed in my brain. Probably picked that up from the gifted program but not sure. Only occult
anything was a tarot deck as a teen but I remember picking it up myself out of curiosity. Stupid teen stuff probably. No memories of anything occult
outside of those things. No memories of black masses or anything odd like that.

It is a pretty creepy song on its own. Worst song for me on the entire tape is actually "Caroline". After I found the tape and was working on it,
I had it stuck in my head every time I laid down to sleep at night along with body memories of being strangulated. I'd say that my dislike for that
song is simply because they sound so out of tune but the body memory was pretty bad.

You didn't hear it then. Some people can't for whatever reason but a whole lot can hear him. It is a music track. It's what is under the track
that makes it abnormal. You might want to try listening to the original song (Tango in the Night by Fleetwood Mac) to comprehend the difference. The
talking in the quiet portions is not a part of the original song. There are a total of two foreign auditory elements to the original track.

I was identified as gifted as a kid. Whether I've put those gifts to good use or not, I have no clue. Kind of a subjective determination on what is
"good" there.

Edit: Actually, did it even play for you? The title was just what my computer auto-named it. I just tried listening to the first section and it
wouldn't play for me (not supposed to listen to it myself). Let me know if the link is broken and I will upload it again.

edit on 11/3/13 by WhiteAlice because: afterthought

Hunted this up, after reading some of your account in the other thread. Regarding the tape (no, didn't listen to all of it, since I can't stand
Fleetwood Mac, but I could hear the voice), it would be interesting to have the song "removed", to see what is underneath. The words at the start
make little sense, which seems to be about "right" for brainwashing techniques, from what I have read. It's possible it simply repeats, and is
part of a much larger program. If you have a fair idea of the text, would you mind sharing that here?

For both of you, regarding dealing with all of the past issues as adults, and the parental relationships, some advice. It's free, and maybe worth
only what you pay, bit I will offer it nonetheless.

You can choose to forgive your parents, without ever giving them your trust, or your time. Considering the stories you shared, trust would be very
misplaced, and possibly dangerous. Time, likewise, seems less that deserved. The forgiveness is more for YOU, than for them. Not because they
deserve it, but because you can choose that for yourself, and shed the resentment. With all the rest you have to deal with, you don't need that
burden. No, that would not be easy, but I believe it would help you, even if only a little.

For you, you DO matter, and your feelings DO count. You are loved. I don't know what you believe, and can understand an aversion to anything
organized, but believe this. God loves you. He DIED for you. He knows your pains, and your needs, and your fears. He weeps with you. People do
terrible things to one another, but there is something beyond this.

Originally posted by WhiteAlice
Once I lost the "rose colored glasses", I realized that my grandfather was quite probably a very charismatic psychopath. One of the other things
that I did with her was made the observation of recollecting his extremity and the treatment of me like I wasn't a child but a soldier in a boot
camp.

Originally posted by WhiteAlice
I think the reason why this scenario existed was because my grandfather's lifestyle, as a career military man, was very regimented itself as is
necessary within the armed forces.

I suspect that his issue was indeed that he was some sort of psychopath, and the military factors were simply incorporated into his behavior as a
result. Knowing many military people, I can tell you that his sort of behavior is far beyond normal. A psychopath, though, in a position of power,
with access to clearly horrible materials, and God only knows what else, would be a very dangerous person.

Originally posted by WhiteAlice
The source of the blockage--that trauma that created it--nothing. Just body memories of feeling strangled and a deep fear of flickering
light.

The light could be a candle, or perhaps some sort of special light used to further the brainwashing from the tapes. The feeling strangled.... I
hesitate to even ask, because it's such a personal and sensitive thing, but do you mean as though something was around your throat, or just a lack of
enough air?

Originally posted by WhiteAlice
My sibling, on the other hand, considers my void a blessing because she remembers. It always makes me wonder who the hell they are protecting because
it certainly never seemed to be me.

Is she unwilling to talk to you about what she remembers? Either about her own childhood or yours? If she's willing, then her memories could
possible help retrieve some of your own. Then again, depending on the events, not remembering could be a blessing of sorts.

Overall, the impression I am left with is that your grandfather was abusive in the extreme, that this carried over to your mother, and that he used
materials from some nasty experiment or other to erase the memories, so that nothing would be done about it. That CPS backed off so quickly seems to
indicate some real pressure, maybe more than one man, no matter his rank, could bring to bear. I am more than a little curious as to what, exactly,
they could have been protecting.

EWW, that is seriously creepy, especially in that context! I am glad now I didn't listen more than enough to know I could hear the voice, at the
start and sort of underneath. It seems like the song could have been chosen as part of the process.

To Alice, I have to state, this makes me curious for more than one reason. Someone I once knew, now deceased, who was in the Army hinted at something
very vague, and there was reason to wonder if this person wasn't part of some different sort of experimentation. A comment was even made to another
family member that volunteering was a really bad thing. The time frame would have been the VERY early sixties, in that case. Curious person that I
am, I have often wondered how to get any information on what sorts of things could have been done back then.

The inability to forgive the unforgiveable made me feel like even more of a failure for several years. Could you even imagine enduring such
treatment, only to feel like you're failing yourself by not forgiving?

As far as removing the song goes, it's not so easily removed apparently. 6 people, so far, have attempted to do just that with no luck though it is
available for download if any wish to try. I just urge caution and working on it in small doses because of what it seems to be if anybody chooses to
try. One individual worked on it for several weeks and was very well versed with audio software. He initially made a mistake of listening too long
and felt ill afterwards--so really don't advise long doses. He gave up and said that it was virtually a masterpiece and unbreakable.

The flashing light problem definitely isn't a candle. The flashback that I had was of a significantly dark place with a very bright white and large
light pulsing at me. That's all I could see and the feelings that I had were extreme panic and absolutely grief because I was alone and there was no
one who could save me. For a bit, I thought that perhaps I had been kidnapped and that was the source of my amnesia but my dad said nobody had ever
kidnapped me. I do recall my parents acquiring a trained attack dog (doberman pinscher) to stick with me at all times when I was around 12. We ended
up having to give her away because the neighbors found out what she was. Whether my dad is lying about that, I don't know as it would've been an
easy "out" to say that I had been. All I know is that I've always disintegrated under strobe lights and had that flashback where I was
alone in the world to a devastating level. The latter actually explained a problem that I had had for as long as I could remember where, if
pressed the wrong way emotionally, I would have this massive sense of being alone and then, lose consciousness. Flickering candles don't bother me.
Flashlight to the face doesn't bother me. Strobes kill me mentally and emotionally.

The throat thing has also been a lifelong problem that actually became 1000x worse after I listened to the tape. Previously, I could not abide
anything touching my neck as it caused my throat to flex and tighten. No turtlenecks, choker necklaces, and no touching my neck EVER. Lifelong
rules. On the first night after we listened to the tape and tried isolating the voice, I laid down to go to sleep and had "Caroline" start looping
in my head. At the same time, I unmistakeably felt massive amount of pressure on my neck as if I was being strangled, could not breathe and was
gurgling. My SO intervened and sat me up, which abated it. This went on for every night for about 3 months until it tapered off. Always
"Caroline", always whenever I laid down.I was an idiot about a month later and played it for a close friend who hadn't heard it without leaving the
room. I spent the next 6 weeks feeling as if something was wrapped around my throat at every waking moment. I finally got so sick of it and exhausted
that I deliberately wrapped a scarf around my neck in the hopes of killing the nerves with sensation overload. I was pretty desperate. I didn't
take it off til the choking sensation had turned into a splinter-like sensation. When I did, I found scratches on my neck at the top portion where I
had subconsciously tried to claw it off. Really not a good body memory and also why I absolutely cannot work on the tape or listen to it ever again.
Learned my lesson severely on that one.

I tried asking my sister to tell me what happened to me once in my life after I had my eldest. I didn't like the fact that I was going to be raising
a child and had no "root" or comprehension of what my own childhood had been like. Was full of fears about what kind of parent I would be so
begging her would actually be more appropriate. I begged my sister to tell me what happened, tears and all. I don't think I've ever seen my sister
so angry in my life. She was literally spitting mad and said that I should be grateful that I don't remember anything because she wished she could
forget. I don't know if whatever happened to me also happened to her. I know that she didn't go through the same things that I did when I turned
18 (namely the tape and the drugs). She and I were vastly different at that point. She became your classic corporate executive (even down to the
sociopath aspect as her demeanor/behavior is so notorious as to be recognized as her just through description--sad but true) and I was more emotional
and inquisitive. Not sure if that's why there was a difference in why I went through what I did and she didn't but it's the only major difference
that I can recall. I was definitely considered to be the "problem child" while she wasn't. She keeps every single family member at a sharp
distance though she occasionally writes me a short letter once a year despite the fact that she lives about 15 minutes away. Holidays only--no other
contact. Very broken family.

CPS backing off may have had more to do with my parents. According to my mother, my parents struggled financially until her father loaned them money
to start a business in 1975. It flourished so by the time that the CPS incident occurred, he was very wealthy and had some level of influence in the
town that we lived in with the local cops. Toss in an uncooperative child and they'd leave. Getting an associate dean of an major medical university
to make an unethical tape--no, he didn't have that power. He was just the "big man" in a small city. My parents split soon after that and my dad
actually attempted to gain custody over me. However, he dropped all attempts to do so and she restricted his access to me for several years. She told
me that he wanted nothing to do with me but he said that what she had done was blackmailed him to drop it after 3 years of divorce battles. I do know
that in the final year of the divorce, a special agent from the FBI showed up at our house to talk to my mother and the following year, he was under
investigation by the FBI for racketeering. He and I both agree that that was purely my mother's doing to basically make sure he knew that she
wasn't kidding. He was never charged with racketeering and the investigation was dropped. The investigation occurred in the same year as the drugs
and the tapes so I also don't know if it was also to keep him far away from me during that time period. For the record, I don't think that implies
FBI involvement. I think that my mom probably called them and said enough to get them looking into my dad. She's like that. Very, very controlling
and not somebody that you want to tangle with.

I always thought my dad idolized my grandfather but last year, when it finally struck me that what happened to my grandmother seemed to be somewhat
like what Cameron was doing in MK, I talked to him about it. He actually turned white as a sheet and said that that was exactly what had been done
with my grandmother. Basically, tons of EST and then they "rebuilt" her. Got him talking about how he actually perceived my grandfather. He said
that he actually knew of my grandfather before he even met my mom as they were stationed at a base flanking the small town that my dad grew up in. He
said that the people in the town were absolutely terrified of my grandfather and that the general consensus was that he was "into some really deep
dark stuff". He also was the one that said that my grandfather made no distinctions between civilians and military and that we "all were military
in his eyes". He told me that if my grandfather was walking through the town and saw some boys doing something he didn't like, he'd order them to
drop to the ground and start doing pushups until he was satisfied. So, my dear grandfather would've definitely fallen under the definition of
"power mad".

It makes me kind of sick to no end that I idolized the man so much that I was blind to what he did. I am so sorry that I ever bought into his belief
that what he did to my grandmother was for national security. It makes me sick. Years ago, he made some tapes talking about his life and he had said
that he felt like he may have played a role in her "depression" because he had been flirting with another military wife. He didn't express regret
for taking her in--just that small admission. After he died, we found a letter that he had written "To whom it may concern", that basically laid
himself blameless for anything that he had done, blamed her for everything, and made himself sound like the charitable hero. He "re-affirmed" this
letter multiple times for over a decade. Zero remorse--what he said on the tapes was a flat out lie. Putting it all together, I think that my
grandmother was worried about radiation as her friend dying from cancer was quite real but I think his motivation was to basically keep her in line
because he was probably having an affair. So, whereas the military may have fried my grandmother's brain for "national security", I think he did
it for a whole other reason.

I've actually talked to a few people in the military and military brats and agree that his behavior was significantly abnormal. They found the idea
of forcing a child to try to make a bed so that a quarter could bounce off of it or being made to stand at attention, salute, at ease over and over
again as being very repugnant. My story isn't about what it's like to be in a typical military family and I hold the utmost respect for both
military and their families. My story is how it can go so significantly foul when the wrong person gets into power.

As far as your friend goes and what you may be asking, I don't know. Everything that I've recollected so far has been my grandfather at the root.
It was grandpa at the ranges. Grandpa drilling me, the bed making, the runs around the block, and well, everything. I remember him always trying to
teach me to walk silently outside. I had to try to sneak up on him. Other than the ranges, all I remember so far took place in his home. The only
oddity that I'm uncertain of is the flashing light memory. I have no idea where I was but only know that I had a very, very profound and devastating
sense of being absolutely alone, abandoned and there was nobody to save me. I have one other memory that I always had but dismissed as being
childhood fancy. Not down with talking about that one publicly because it's very odd but it also featured him.

So as far my person goes? Not
so sure of that and am defaulting to what I recollect as it being family generated and perpetrated. I wasn't even born until the late 60's so also
too young for that.

My mother, on the other hand, very, very possible. There is something very deeply wrong with her and, for all of her abusiveness, she was also really
very protective as weird as that sounds. I know that she was terrified when I was a young teen that, if I came to be noticed, some undefined "they"
would take me away and I'd disappear. She even went to the extent of wanting to leave the country with me when I was 17. Very, very paranoid even
down to not discussing some topics over the phone because of the potential of there being listeners.

My grandfather's AF-11 is la big blank blotch between the years 1945 and 1957 with only mentions of serving in the Korean War and two training
stints--one at Treasure Island for radiological def and the other being SAC survival training. The first entry after enlistment is him being a
military intelligence officer, no location and just says "continuous service" after that until 1957. My mother recalled seeing the military
intelligence sphinx as a child which would've been at Fort Holabird. She had some of my grandfather's home videos transferred to dvd and some of it
is of Randolph AFB. She was born in San Antonio, TX so that corresponds with being stationed at Randolph AFB. He was transferred to Roswell,
according to both him and my grandmother and there's footage of them being out there with my mom as a toddler. Where it gets interesting is that my
mom always has said she grew up and spent most of her life in California. The thing is that there is also footage of her living in Texas as pre-teen.
It's very clearly Texas based on specific landmarks featuring her as a pre-teen or young teen. Guessing off of her probable age in the footage, it
would've been somewhere around 1958 to 1960. His af-11 says California for that time period so not sure what's up with the Texas footage. There was
also some kind of weird footage in the home videos that I know was filmed by my grandfather in this same time period. My avatar is a still of it.

I'm actually really loathe to publicly talk much more about my mother more on this subject. I will say something very seriously went wrong with her,
too, and I know that she tried digging into her father's military past and tried obtaining her and her mother's medical records from the military.
She even tried FOIA requests for these things. 47 pages of his service record (mostly promotions/awards--nothing really enlightening) and his medical
record. Her and her mothers? No records. That really, really bothered her and she was very upset because she couldn't understand how or why they
could refuse release of either of those medical records to her. So, me--no. My mother--not so sure. Something is really wrong there and on a much
higher level.

No audio for either so you can turn down the buzzing sound without fear of missing anything but first link is what I'm pretty sure is Randolph
(architecture is pretty unmistakeable) and second link is the weird home movie. vimeo.com...vimeo.com...

The inability to forgive the unforgiveable made me feel like even more of a failure for several years. Could you even imagine enduring such
treatment, only to feel like you're failing yourself by not forgiving?

The road to hell is paved with good intentions.

Considering the degree of abuse, it's understandable to be unable to forgive. In any case, God is bigger than we are, and forgives us when we ask,
and HE knows how bad things were for you. Be assured, too, that justice will come to those committing such acts.

As far as removing the song goes, it's not so easily removed apparently. 6 people, so far, have attempted to do just that with no luck though it is
available for download if any wish to try. I just urge caution and working on it in small doses because of what it seems to be if anybody chooses to
try. One individual worked on it for several weeks and was very well versed with audio software. He initially made a mistake of listening too long
and felt ill afterwards--so really don't advise long doses. He gave up and said that it was virtually a masterpiece and unbreakable.[/

The flashing light problem definitely isn't a candle. The flashback that I had was of a significantly dark place with a very bright white and large
light pulsing at me. *snip* For a bit, I thought that perhaps I had been kidnapped and that was the source of my amnesia but my dad said nobody had
ever kidnapped me. I do recall my parents acquiring a trained attack dog (doberman pinscher) to stick with me at all times when I was around 12.
*snip* Flickering candles don't bother me. Flashlight to the face doesn't bother me. Strobes kill me mentally and emotionally.

The throat thing has also been a lifelong problem that actually became 1000x worse after I listened to the tape. Previously, I could not abide
anything touching my neck as it caused my throat to flex and tighten. No turtlenecks, choker necklaces, and no touching my neck EVER. Lifelong
rules. On the first night after we listened to the tape and tried isolating the voice, I laid down to go to sleep and had "Caroline" start looping
in my head....*snip*

I tried asking my sister to tell me what happened to me once in my life after I had my eldest. I didn't like the fact that I was going to be raising
a child and had no "root" or comprehension of what my own childhood had been like. Was full of fears about what kind of parent I would be so
begging her would actually be more appropriate. I begged my sister to tell me what happened, tears and all. I don't think I've ever seen my sister
so angry in my life. *snip*

Well, I don't have the programs for audio editing, or any real skill there, so I doubt I would have any success. If I did, I might try, because I am
not typically susceptible to some things ("subliminals" in ads, I see, not prone to hypnotic effects, etc). I WILL say that the brief portion I
listened to felt really BAD. Call it a spiritual warning, maybe, but that is definitely one dangerous tape. After listening to just a little of the
voice at the start, and a bit of the music, I made a point to listen to some really GOOD music, Christian stuff, to "purge" whatever was clinging to
that. Years of such stuff would definitely have an effect on a person. Only thing I can recommend there is prayer.

A strobe sounds like the sort of thing that could be used for some psych warfare methods. The strangling, well, if that relates to the missing year,
and a probably psychopathic "grandfather" (biological ONLY, in that case), I hate to even speculate. I would definitely recommend avoiding that
music, though.

It almost sounds like your sister has some idea of abuse, but might have been a more "successful" subject for whatever was done. The controlling
"lessons", the strict attitudes, and the tapes, lights, and whatever else, could have been meant to "help" in a twisted mind. meaning, maybe
whatever this was was supposed to "enhance" a person in some way, making them more likely to succeed in business, and so forth. From the way you
describe your sister, it doesn't seem like the effect on personality was at all beneficial, but some twisted sort of person, who didn't care how
people were hurt, might not believe emotions were valid, and might think being ruthless was a good thing. Sick, but possible.

Unless you wanted to pursue some legal case, forcing those in the know to talk, I don't see a way to get more information from family. Such a case
would be VERY difficult to prove, of course, and probably not effective enough to be worth the potential risks. At this point, you want better for
your children, which means you are capable of caring, and that's a very good thing. Whatever happened, you have retained a sense of decency and
goodness.

Yeah, the nature of the tape is just something that, in itself, is hard to handle. Underemphasis of the century but it is still really very
uncomfortable to have something like that and know it was used on me. To know that this tape was in my mother's possession. Those are the mind
killing aspects of the tape that I am still struggling with even 6-7 months later. It's hellish. For all we know, the guy could be saying for me to
imagine green pastures, puppies and kittens, rainbows and sparkly unicorns underneath all that (on top of telling me to purge memories) but the tape
in its format and entirety really is an abomination. I can't listen to the tape without severe negative consequence. I can't even listen to the
normal versions of the songs without those same negative consequences. Just thinking about the tape will sometimes start the music looping in my
head. It's nasty. Don't worry about trying to break it. A few of the individuals that tried were very well versed in audio software and
couldn't.

I did look into what the flashing lights could have been. Problem is, I have no context in which to identify just how old I was in that recollection.
The one thing that I did find is that there was research going on in regards to flashing lights creating amnesia in 1983 but it was being done on
rats. I'm obviously not a rat: www.sciencedirect.com... There are a whole lot of hits for flashing lights
or flicker and amnesia from the 70's and 80's. I suspect some of it had to do with research in regards to the phenomena of driving somewhere and not
being able to remember driving. Still, a pretty unsettling association but I cannot dismiss the issues with strobe or the memory because it's been a
problem for a very, very long time before I even had the recollection. If I had a few questionable activities going on with me, then it kind of
follows that the flashing light was along the same lines.

In regards to my sister, I totally agree and actually your thoughts on what she is like is pretty spot on. I've actually tried to fathom why I turned
out so incredibly than she did. We both have significant problems without a doubt but most people who know me see me as one of the most caring people
and, in fact, I get accused of caring too much. It's like night and day and that difference was remarked upon by both my mother and grandfather. My
grandfather would say that I was the "only one who was warm blooded in a cold blooded family" and would urge me to make sure that I stuck around
because it made him feel less alone. So, not sure if the emphasis was to make me cold blooded but years had passed when my grandfather made that
statement so it could have been expressing regret for what he had done in the only way that he could.

Fighting them legally would be difficult even despite the tape because my mother is the only one of the two left and she has way more money that I do.
Getting recourse doesn't have to be through the judicial system. My mother is very fixated on keeping things secret and how things appear. My just
talking openly and publicly about what went on is the worst thing I could ever do in her book. She hunts for information about my grandfather's
career so the odds are that she may very well come across this some day and there's nothing that she can do about it.

Well, I suspect that the music was a big part of the program, whatever that might have been, so feeling a negative effect from it alone doesn't
surprise me. Many have speculated that some music could be used to affect people in different ways, and I think it's a distinct possibility. For as
long as I can remember, I have come across certain songs, and in some cases, bands/singers, that I really didn't want to listen to AT ALL. Not every
time I hear something new or anything, but once in a while, for as long as I can recall, there is a song that I simply do not want to hear. On
occasion, I have even left the room, or building, to avoid one. Many times, this is something very popular, and I can't explain. Maybe it's just
that I really AM that picky, and some thing just get on my nerves, but some of these were SO "icky", in a way I can't explain, that I have to
wonder. The group for that tape is one case where I like almost nothing I have ever heard from them. Since I like a reasonably diverse variety of
music, that stands out.

That flashing light study is more than a little creepy. I can't help but think that something done on rats could easily have been done on people as
well. Some black budget project, with little to no oversight, could have found the effect far earlier than that. Plus, I can't help but speculate
about strobe lights. I know for a fact those were very common in clubs back in the 80's. The study mentions some sort of fear conditioning, and the
lights, but what if someone went to a club in just the right state of mind? I do remember a few people really not liking the strobes. One, to be
fair, has some tendencies towards epilepsy, which would matter, but most didn't seem to. Maybe some are more susceptible than others, too. Heck,
maybe observing some in clubs lead to such research. IN your case, anyway, it seems clear this was part of whatever else was happening.

With your sister, i have to wonder if she really does remember that part of what happened. Maybe she remembers some of the "training"; the harsh
lessons, bed-making and the like, and possibly some sort of abusive behavior, but doesn't recall the mental manipulation at all. Or, maybe she
recalls the fear-conditioning parts, and not the rest. Either way, it doesn't seem like she will be of much help to you. Considering the
differences in your personalities, it's possible that is a factor as well, in how people will respond to such things.

It sounds like your grandfather might have had some remorse, but then, he did make his own decisions. Even orders, if he had such, wouldn't really
excuse doing something like that with his own family. In the case of your mother, she could be as much of a victim herself, if the same was done to
her. She could also simply be in a line of abuse, and if that's the case, could have moved past it, as many do (yourself included). Legally,
probably nothing you can do, which makes getting answers harder. Depending on who was involved, and at what level, answers could be difficult anyway.
It seems like the timing was at least close to the known MK Ultra tests, that were exposed. Have you considered checking into that?

Sorry for the delay. Sometimes need breaks from the subject because it's hard.

I absolutely agree with you in regards to music. One of the first things that our own species created were musical instruments and that, I believe,
included the neanderthal who are generally perceived as being ignorant in comparison to us. Even they had flutes, tubas and percussion instruments
and a way of recording music down to play again. Music is powerful stuff and has been used for millenia to move people emotionally. What we do with
it today is no different and sometimes, the message can be very, very icky to some. I love a pretty good diversity of music but some just repels me.
Totally hear you on that one.

I've been looking pretty hard at the various research subjects that have been going on over the last 50 years or more even and it's all pretty
creepy at times. Someone on ATS posted something about a forgetting pill and, considering my own experience, I was so horrified that research was
being done to basically make amnesia as readily available as a swallowing of a pill. Yikes. From my perspective of having been abused by some of
this kind of stuff, what immediately jumps to my mind is the substantial amount of abuse that can take place with some of the research that has been
done. But the strobe lights--yeah, it can sometimes be epilepsy. I was under the care of a neurologist after suffering from a TIA years ago during
pregnancy and one of the tests was an eeg with the flashing light. No seizure activity at all and the only thing anomalous was that I did have
additional brainwaves that were not seizure activity. They just doubled. My guess is that they recorded that I was being traumatized. When I took
psych in college, I remember the prof talking about the whole flickering light leading to amnesia example I used in the preceding post. I think that
might have been what stimulated the idea but you never know. You bet about the black budgets. What my grandpa used to tell me was that everything
that we have in society today, the military has had it for at least 20 years.

I did tell my sister that I was starting to recollect things, against the urgings of both of my parents. In fact, it was because they were pushing so
hard for me to not mention it to her that led me to do it. Her response was really odd. She had been smiling at me and it was like something shifted
in her face or eyes though she never stopped looking at me and smiling. She just nodded and pretended as if I hadn't said anything at all on the
matter. Was kind of creepy so I don't know if something was done to her or not or what she remembers. They are all pretty much dead ends for me at
this point.

I have looked into the MK stuff but strictly at those documents that are publicly available and the Church report. I think that there is a lot of crap
out there on the subject. I don't know. I don't have any evidence that would prove or disprove it one way or the other. You know?

Well, for the most part, we have some control over the music we hear. Even without your experiences, there is some that bugs me, and I also like a
pretty good variety of stuff. With your experience, it's got to be a lot worse. The good thing is, you know it was a factor, and can thus avoid it,
at the least.

The flashing light stuff is pretty weird, and you just know that any such experiments would involve more than just one thing. In your case, you know
about the lights, music, and subliminal messages. Probably, the insane amount of psych meds were part if it as well.

20 years? Oh, at least! Far longer in some cases! Look at the wedge-shaped stealth craft of recent years, and compare to some pretty old UFO
reports. Some were surely test craft. I figure, the way things work, when they "admit" they had it by such and such date, it's probably been
around longer.

That's an interesting reaction from your sister. The way you describe it, I think she DID hear you, and wasn't happy about it. Maybe she wanted to
show no reaction, to avoid some perceived threat. Hard to say, but definitely odd.

No worries about delays. i am not on here daily, though I try to be somewhat regularly, and on a topi like this, if you need to drop it awhile, or
entirely, do so. This discussion should be to help YOU, as much as anything, and if it's too much, I think most people would understand.

WhiteAlice, are you familiar with Dr. Ewen Cameron? When reading your story it reminded me of him and his experiments.

After the war Cameron worked at the Albany State Medical School. Cameron developed the theory that mental patients could be cured by treatment
that erased existing memories and by rebuilding the psyche completely. According to his research assistant, Dr. Peter Roper, "He (Cameron) had a
technician called Leonard Rubenstein who modified cassettes so there was an endless tape, it could keep repeating itself for hours at a time. If
Cameron could give a positive message, eventually a patient would respond to it." Cameron would play the tapes to his patients for up to 86 days, as
they slipped in and out of insulin-induced comas.

That was one source I picked at random but have been familiar with the man since watching Monarch. Cameron was probably before your time but perhaps
this could have something to do with his work or a continuation.

Unfortunately, yes. The first time I ever heard anything about MK-ULTRA, it was actually brought up in a documentary long before I found the tape.
I'd always known the story of what happened to my grandmother for "national security" (she was fearful of radiation giving her cancer) and how she
was reduced to rubble via electroshock therapy. It definitely piqued my curiosity because I recollected my mom talking about what she was like
afterwards. My mother was forced to drop out from college to return home to care for her mother afterwards because she couldn't even do basic
functions properly. So, the next time I went out to dinner with my dad, I asked him about whether or not tapes had been used on her and he confirmed
that they had been. When I mentioned Cameron using that specific combination of EST and tapes and his relationship to MK-ULTRA, my dad's face turned
white. He really freaked out. Talking to my mother about it, since she was the one who cared for my grandmother, she got very choked up and sounded
like she was talking through gritted teeth when she said that "they rebuilt her". This event happened in 1964, several years before I was born, so
all I have is secondhand from my parents. I don't know if she was sent out of Alaska for this though it's distinct possibility that she was
transferred out as Alaska would've been recovering from the Good Friday Quake still. I don't know if it was Cameron who did this to her or if it
was some doctor repeating Cameron's work. Either is possible. Considering that she was the wife of an officer whose clearance was TS and was
getting vocal on the subject of radiation exposures, it seems pretty darn plausible that she would be exactly the type of person that would get a
Cameron treatment.

Does my tape have something to do with Cameron's "psychic driving"? I think it is probably somewhat based on his work, considering what little can
be gleaned from the doctor's words. However, I think it definitely has some more 80's thinking to it. Sometimes I wonder whether it's watery and
peculiar sound is due to it having biofeedback in it or if it's just age degradation because biofeedback would be pure 80's. Subliminal hypnosis
tapes were immensely popular in the 80's for all sorts of self improvement so that falls in line with what was the tech at the time and really, even
a mundane subliminal tape could be construed as a form of "psychic driving". What makes mine significant is all the extra noise and the usage of
lyrical music. Those were no-no's for subliminal hypnosis tapes even back then because the risk of the corruption of the hypnotic suggestion through
the addition of overlying lyrics. So yeah, it is Cameron-ish but has pure 80's hallmarks. It definitely was not his work though as the doctor who
made it was arrogant and brazen enough to put his own name on the tape.

As far as Monarch goes, I look at it this way: if the patriarch of a family is in a position where they can use the "latest" in brain nuking
technology to cover up their personal indiscretions and control their families, then it's probably going to have a generational impact. If they got
away with it once, they can do it again. That's looking at it from my perspective from within my family. I see this path of destruction that
basically has its root in my grandfather. If it had been the government doing some sort of multigenerational program, then my children or my
sister's children would have been targeted for it by now. They haven't been. When he died, that generational aspect ended. Occam's razor: he
was the source. Many of the claims about Monarch are similar to my story. You have multiple generations that seemingly have been impacted by
MK-ULTRA and beyond. Many Monarch victims cite familial abuse, usually sexual. Imagine a pedophile in a position to access this kind of thing--you
bet they would use it. Pedophiles use psychological manipulation normally to control their victims. Give them access and power and they will use
whatever they have available to them to escape punishment.

Where I find zero commonality is that I do not have some kind of numerically coded anything within me. No beta, delta or anything like that. Do I
have an alter? I don't know. I know that I have some things that point to it, including that massive memory loss. My eyes will change from green
to blue and I can write independently with both hands concurrently. Those are typical multiple personality traits. I've lost time twice in my life
that I know of. I was never far off track when I came back so no trips to Uganda to assassinate someone. In fact, the only times where I've lost
consciousness with any reliability, I just lost consciousness. I didn't go anywhere, I didn't do anything. It was simply like I abruptly fell
asleep and would awake 15 minutes later emotionally scrubbed. That doesn't match what Monarch is supposed to do.

I also routinely get people telling me that "they" could come scrub all of this from my memory. Quite frankly, I'd welcome them to do it because
this really sucks. The position I'm in is horrific. Ignorance IS bliss. I've not been "okay" since I found that tape and I don't think I ever
will be. But nobody has come. No knocks on the door to scrub my mind and take my tape. It's been over a year and here I am, actually wishing that
somebody would come and take it all away. I'd be willing. No harassment, no knocks, no scrubbing of the mind. That's reality.

The murmuring does sound odd. Have you ever taken that tape to a souyndcheck studio or someone with good audio equipment in order to isolate the voice
in the background? Thank you for providing the clip otherwise it WOULD seem just like another of the `I have evidence of something but I`m not gonna
tell you` type thread. Maybe your family has bad memory recall themselves? Could be a medical thing with them especially since you said that You had
been diagnosed as such.

There were several people that attempted to break the tape using sound software but it was outside of their capabilities or what they had available to
them. I've been told by a couple other sources that taking it to a professional sound studio is probably not a good idea, just in case, it is
something that I absolutely should not have possession of. There's an inherent safety that being "just another probable nut on the net" that gets
lost when you are going to professionals with it, lol. I agree with you completely. I find nothing more annoying then people who pull the "I know
something but I'm not going to tell" routine. Often times, it seems that inadequate communication, whether intentional or not, seems to be the
root of most of our problems in today's world. With that in mind, if I recall or find something that negates my current view on the matter, I'd
share it here. So far though, everything is funneling straight back to my grandfather.

We do not have a history of memory problems within my family. In fact, it's quite the opposite. I have a nearly eidetic memory. When I was younger
and bored, I actually memorized pi to the 28th decimal, lol. My nickname in college was "The Alien" due to my memory as I would routinely read a
chapter 15-30 minutes before a test and ace it. My peers found great humor in the crispy new condition of my textbooks and postulate whether I
learned things by osmosis or diffusion, lol. I'm not alien. I'm just a human sponge and my ability to recollect things is something that even
acquaintances quickly admire. That's what makes my amnesia really very paradoxical and irritating. Based on this, I should be able to recollect
minor details but instead, my childhood memory was a void and is now just incredibly shattered with bits of void between. I have been diagnosed with
dissociative disorder including diffuse and wide-scale dissociative amnesia in response to probable severe childhood trauma. My brain is highly
capable of recollecting information and events--just not those that I've blocked presumably to protect myself.

I do honestly think the tape has something to do with this. If I'm thinking about my memory issues and am engaging in an internal dialogue, if I
even partially use the phrase "I remember", the lyrics to the chorus of Tango in the Night kick off in my head. It happens every time. Think of it
like hearing a line from a popular song and then getting it stuck in your head. It's the same here but for me, because of that tape, it has a
completely different possibility of my mind being tampered with. I end up looping in on myself like Ouroboros. With what can be gleaned from that
portion of the tape, it definitely suggests that the possibility that that song is most likely about burying memory. A little too coincidental for my
liking as I'd rather it all be rubbish, lol. It makes me feel like actually remembering what all happened to me is impossible and that's not
healthy and pretty depressing. I'd rather be able to deal with it and move on to as normal of a life as possible.

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