Giving up on Atheism - Atheism promotes promiscuity and is bad for society - Think Atheist2015-08-02T23:36:09Zhttp://www.thinkatheist.com/forum/topics/giving-up-on-atheism-atheism-promotes-promiscuity-and-is-bad-for?x=1&id=1982180%3ATopic%3A1153570&feed=yes&xn_auth=noCould you maybe suggest a par…tag:www.thinkatheist.com,2013-02-19:1982180:Comment:12617492013-02-19T05:35:04.264ZSteveInCOhttp://www.thinkatheist.com/profile/SteveInCO
<blockquote><p>Could you maybe suggest a particular god we should start following, or what particular religious group we should change to, to get on this path of 'righteousness'.</p>
</blockquote>
<p>Just make one up. It's been done before... like, just about every time so far.</p>
<blockquote><p>Could you maybe suggest a particular god we should start following, or what particular religious group we should change to, to get on this path of 'righteousness'.</p>
</blockquote>
<p>Just make one up. It's been done before... like, just about every time so far.</p> I might suggest the Sikh reli…tag:www.thinkatheist.com,2013-02-19:1982180:Comment:12619962013-02-19T05:12:51.285ZJames Coxhttp://www.thinkatheist.com/profile/JamesCox
<p>I might suggest the Sikh religion. After many visits with them over the years, my last at the local temple following the Sikh deaths last summer, I find them to be deeply kind, understanding balanced, and with good hearts generally. They even have their own soup kitchen...</p>
<p>I might suggest the Sikh religion. After many visits with them over the years, my last at the local temple following the Sikh deaths last summer, I find them to be deeply kind, understanding balanced, and with good hearts generally. They even have their own soup kitchen...</p> @unseen
"Setting Sparta aside…tag:www.thinkatheist.com,2013-02-19:1982180:Comment:12619022013-02-19T05:06:59.031ZJames Coxhttp://www.thinkatheist.com/profile/JamesCox
<p>@unseen</p>
<p>"Setting Sparta aside, we still have the Mayan human sacrifice thing. Were they just bad people or did human sacrifice fit into their worldview in a way we simply can't fathom because we can't relate to it?"</p>
<p>Oh I think many of us do it also, but we call it military service or retirement.</p>
<p>@unseen</p>
<p>"Setting Sparta aside, we still have the Mayan human sacrifice thing. Were they just bad people or did human sacrifice fit into their worldview in a way we simply can't fathom because we can't relate to it?"</p>
<p>Oh I think many of us do it also, but we call it military service or retirement.</p> @Unseen
I concede several ste…tag:www.thinkatheist.com,2013-02-19:1982180:Comment:12616792013-02-19T03:09:50.581ZUnseenhttp://www.thinkatheist.com/profile/Unseen
<p><em><strong>@Unseen</strong></em></p>
<p><em><strong>I concede several steps. However I put forth a more basic argument, and the onus is on you to disprove it. While I will give a (kind of) proof (of sorts) for it.</strong></em></p>
<p><em><strong>I state : Minimizing the total (death,pain : in that order) in a society is the right thing to do.</strong></em></p>
<p><em><strong>Argument : We are atheists. We don't believe in a sentient higher power.</strong></em></p>
<p>I thought atheists…</p>
<p><em><strong>@Unseen</strong></em></p>
<p><em><strong>I concede several steps. However I put forth a more basic argument, and the onus is on you to disprove it. While I will give a (kind of) proof (of sorts) for it.</strong></em></p>
<p><em><strong>I state : Minimizing the total (death,pain : in that order) in a society is the right thing to do.</strong></em></p>
<p><em><strong>Argument : We are atheists. We don't believe in a sentient higher power.</strong></em></p>
<p>I thought atheists don't believe in a personal deity (a deity with a human-like personality). However, I don't think God cries out when he stubs his toe, so I'm not sure how many human-like senses he has. </p>
<p><em><strong>No living being wants to die. To prove this, you can ask every human, each one will refuse. Start killing any living being. Each one will try to stop it. Right down to a bacterium which will produce neutralizing enzymes.</strong></em></p>
<p><em><strong>Those who do want death when they are sober and unpained, will also hate pain. Those who want pain, will not want death.</strong></em></p>
<p>When it comes to people, that's very simplistic. In Oregon, assisted suicide is legal. Some people who take advantage of it are simply out of reasons to live. They are not necessarily in pain or even depressed. People commit suicides for reasons unknown. Sometimes we know they were depressed, sometimes we don't. Every year seemingly happy people disappear from cruise ships. Psychologists speculate that while some of the disappeared may be depressed or have been murdered, some simply may have a momentary irresistible impulse to jump off the boat! (Of course, on the way down, they probably are thinking "This is a very bad idea.")</p>
<p>That may be true and may not be, but if it is, all cultures I'm aware of, including our own, ultimately place the good of the whole above the wishes and even the life of the individual. (The greatest good for the greatest number can also be formulated this way:"Minorities may have to be screwed over if it benefits the majority".)</p>
<p><em><strong>Since we have no higher power, we have to rely on the "opinions" (instincts for nonhumans) of the denizens of the earth.</strong></em></p>
<p><em><strong>Every organism, future or present will express the same opinion. None of us are inherently higher than others (even if one thinks so, its just his belief), so we rely on this base of living beings. You will encounter exactly 100% opposition when you ask each organism to die.</strong></em></p>
<p><em><strong>So this is my "proof". The burden is on you to disprove my above statement.</strong></em></p>
<p>My assertion has been that ethics are time- and place-based. People's opinions vary from time to time and place to place. One simply has to look at the practices of other cultures in other times to see that that is inescapably true. </p>
<p>What about the radical Muslim with the explosive vest who goes into a crowded market and detonates it in hopes of landing some virgin tail when he goes to meet Allah? Can you assume that the Mayan sacrifices didn't buy into the idea that they were going to meet the gods? Your view doesn't explain acts of heroism. The soldier who throws his body on the live grenade to save his friends, for example.</p>
<p>I go back to my question: Considering cultures who did things today we think of as wrong or horrific, were they bad people? Certainly, if ethics have an objective basis, it's strange that only today we can perceive it. It's not like some new investigative instrument has been discovered, some moral microscope or ethical calculator.</p>
<p>Ethics and morals are the opinions of a time and place. Some future time and place may look upon us and our widely-held ethical beliefs as primitive and degenerate.</p> RE: "We rejected survival of…tag:www.thinkatheist.com,2013-02-19:1982180:Comment:12617322013-02-19T01:32:18.674Zarchaeopteryxhttp://www.thinkatheist.com/xn/detail/u_2gskiyna07rt3
<p>RE: "We rejected survival of the fittest." - Who is "We"? I certainly don't reject it, and I don't know of any rational person who does.</p>
<p>RE: "What's "burying my head in sand" about this?" - I'd have to say being surrounded by evidence of Darwinian evolution and speaking of being, "anti-darwinist" certainly qualifies.</p>
<p>RE: "We rejected survival of the fittest." - Who is "We"? I certainly don't reject it, and I don't know of any rational person who does.</p>
<p>RE: "What's "burying my head in sand" about this?" - I'd have to say being surrounded by evidence of Darwinian evolution and speaking of being, "anti-darwinist" certainly qualifies.</p> @Unseen
I concede several ste…tag:www.thinkatheist.com,2013-02-19:1982180:Comment:12617252013-02-19T00:32:01.617ZMilind Rhttp://www.thinkatheist.com/profile/MilindR
<p>@Unseen</p>
<p>I concede several steps. However I put forth a more basic argument, and the onus is on you to disprove it. While I will give a (kind of) proof (of sorts) for it. </p>
<p>I state : Minimizing the total (death,pain : in that order) in a society is the right thing to do. </p>
<p>Argument : We are atheists. We don't believe in a sentient higher power.</p>
<p>No living being wants to die. To prove this, you can ask every human, each one will refuse. Start killing any living being.…</p>
<p>@Unseen</p>
<p>I concede several steps. However I put forth a more basic argument, and the onus is on you to disprove it. While I will give a (kind of) proof (of sorts) for it. </p>
<p>I state : Minimizing the total (death,pain : in that order) in a society is the right thing to do. </p>
<p>Argument : We are atheists. We don't believe in a sentient higher power.</p>
<p>No living being wants to die. To prove this, you can ask every human, each one will refuse. Start killing any living being. Each one will try to stop it. Right down to a bacterium which will produce neutralizing enzymes.</p>
<p>Those who do want death when they are sober and unpained, will also hate pain. Those who want pain, will not want death.</p>
<p>Since we have no higher power, we have to rely on the "opinions" (instincts for nonhumans) of the denizens of the earth. Every organism, future or present will express the same opinion. None of us are inherently higher than others (even if one thinks so, its just his belief), so we rely on this base of living beings. You will encounter exactly 100% opposition when you ask each organism to die.</p>
<p>So this is my "proof". The burden is on you to disprove my above statement.</p>
<p>@Archeopteryx: What's not clear about anti-darwinist? We rejected survival of the fittest. So we decided we don't just do what comes naturally to us. So arguments of "why not? its natural" for promiscuity don't apply : no one really cares what's natural; that doesn't determine what's right or not.</p>
<p>What's "burying my head in sand" about this?</p> I'd like to point out this se…tag:www.thinkatheist.com,2013-02-18:1982180:Comment:12618122013-02-18T23:28:07.533ZStregahttp://www.thinkatheist.com/profile/MzStrega
<p>I'd like to point out this sentence to the OP...</p>
<blockquote><p>There is a strong correlation between divorce risk and low IQ. There is also a strong correlation between high IQ and atheism (giving you folks a compliment, take it :) ).</p>
</blockquote>
<p>I think the term "<em>you folks</em>" rather than "<em>us folks</em>" might be indicative of your lack of self perception as an atheist. I can't choose not to believe in a god. Atheism isn't a choice. </p>
<p>Promiscuity is a…</p>
<p>I'd like to point out this sentence to the OP...</p>
<blockquote><p>There is a strong correlation between divorce risk and low IQ. There is also a strong correlation between high IQ and atheism (giving you folks a compliment, take it :) ).</p>
</blockquote>
<p>I think the term "<em>you folks</em>" rather than "<em>us folks</em>" might be indicative of your lack of self perception as an atheist. I can't choose not to believe in a god. Atheism isn't a choice. </p>
<p>Promiscuity is a subjective term, and given proper encouragement to use contraception, babies do not have to magically appear every time a woman has sex. But of course the churches don't like contraception, do they? So when you look at the values, always assuming I could pretend to believe in this god character, of your "Traditional Conservative Church", you are promoting no divorce, no contraception, and no sex outside marriage. No thanks.</p> No you're not, you're fine. …tag:www.thinkatheist.com,2013-02-18:1982180:Comment:12616582013-02-18T22:43:58.337ZStregahttp://www.thinkatheist.com/profile/MzStrega
<p>No you're not, you're fine. And good point too.</p>
<p>No you're not, you're fine. And good point too.</p> not only is the entire argume…tag:www.thinkatheist.com,2013-02-18:1982180:Comment:12618002013-02-18T21:00:45.030ZBryanPaulhttp://www.thinkatheist.com/profile/BryanPaul
<p>not only is the entire argument supposition, I don't see the point. The whole premise is based of societal benefit. The truth is evolution has given us the alpha and beta for a reason. It is so the strongest genes are passed on while beta genes are dead ends. This is not for the benefit of society but for species survival. It is a fact that it is NOT the strongest that survive. It is the most adaptable that survive. That is why diversity is so important to a species. In todays times…</p>
<p>not only is the entire argument supposition, I don't see the point. The whole premise is based of societal benefit. The truth is evolution has given us the alpha and beta for a reason. It is so the strongest genes are passed on while beta genes are dead ends. This is not for the benefit of society but for species survival. It is a fact that it is NOT the strongest that survive. It is the most adaptable that survive. That is why diversity is so important to a species. In todays times research into the mates women choose and why shows a shift from the most athletic and aggressive males to ones that are better providers regardless of physical appearances. I'm off track here, sorry. </p> Yay social activism, and poli…tag:www.thinkatheist.com,2013-02-18:1982180:Comment:12616922013-02-18T18:01:26.579ZJames Coxhttp://www.thinkatheist.com/profile/JamesCox
<p>Yay social activism, and political embarrasment!</p>
<p>Yay social activism, and political embarrasment!</p>