“It’s shit like this that turns a perfectly serviceable term into meaningless garbage.”

Oh, wait, you’re right. Please, white males of WHTM, please tell me how I may or may not personally experience misogyny. After all, as long as you’re using one woman’s words to steamroll over another woman’s words, it can’t possibly be mansplaining.

“I think you said something incredibly stupid and then you blew up when called on it.”

Sure. Could you please, in your own words, explain what it was that I actually intended to say, and not whatever you THINK I said because you’re incapable of having any conversation with me that doesn’t involve making (sometimes ridiculous) negative assumptions about me.

Oh, and while you’re playing psychic, what’s the winning lottery numbers?

Oh, wait, you’re right. Please, white males of WHTM, please tell me how I may or may not personally experience misogyny. After all, as long as you’re using one woman’s words to steamroll over another woman’s words, it can’t possibly be mansplaining.

Speaking of people who don’t know what the fuck just happened, that’s not what just happened.

Sure. Could you please, in your own words, explain what it was that I actually intended to say,

Please read above, because I said nothing about what you INTENDED to say. I don’t know what you INTENDED to say. What you DID say was dumb as hell.

Sorry, but since you’re talking to me, you do owe me a good faith attempt to understand. Which is why I asked you to repeat back what I said, since I don’t think you actually understand, despite sitting here and making attacks.

So yes, you do owe me that much.

Edit: So, if you don’t know what I intended to say, what are you arguing?

Take your own advice for once. Ask what the other person meant. Don’t assume.

A) I’m not psychic. Why are you getting so aggressive with me for responding to what you did say rather than what you meant to say?
B) Intent does not mitigate harm. Your words were really gross and they were upsetting to read whether that was your intention or not.

Edit:

Which is why I asked you to repeat back what I said, since I don’t think you actually understand, despite sitting here and making attacks.

Again you’re implying that if your intended meaning didn’t get across people didn’t understand. That’s not the case. Stop treating us like we’re incapable of comprehending or deliberately misinterpreting.

Mrex, when you come in swinging at everyone who addresses you, they most certainly do not owe you a “good faith attempt to understand” just because they’re addressing you.

For instance, there are very many right-wing trolls and bigots on another forum I frequent. They very regularly bemoan me for not being “tolerant” because I don’t entertain their ideas. I have absolutely no reason to entertain their ideas when I address them, and when they respond to my posts by getting even more aggressive at me, that gives me even less reason to seriously converse with them.

Sorry, but since you’re talking to me, you do owe me a good faith attempt to understand.

Nope, I sure don’t. That you feel entitled to something from me is your problem, not mine. I owe you two things: jack, and shit.

Now, if you were someone else, I would have go ahead and do it anyway, not because you are entitled to anything from me, but because I voluntarily engage in civil discourse with civil people. But you are not a civil person and you have proven yourself, on this thread and others, to be incapable of civil discourse. I volunteer nothing for you.

Edit: So, if you don’t know what I intended to say, what are you arguing?

Because what you DID say was fucking stupid, and you literally asked me what I thought of what you said. You asked me a question, I answered it, and now you’re pissy. Your pissitude means nothing to me, and what was going on behind your eyes when you made your fucking stupid statement is irrelevant.

“Nope, I sure don’t. That you feel entitled to something from me is your problem, not mine. I owe you two things: jack, and shit.”

You didn’t think this through did you? If you don’t owe me civility, then I don’t owe you civility, and I’m justified in my “pissitude”. Unless of course you’re “better” than me, and entitled when I’m not.

So, engage in good faith, or piss off.

@kupo

“Again you’re implying that if your intended meaning didn’t get across people didn’t understand. That’s not the case. Stop treating us like we’re incapable of comprehending or deliberately misinterpreting.”

Actually, what I said was that I worded things confusingly, and then apologized for that. I took the blame for the misunderstanding, not you.

You didn’t think this through did you? If you don’t owe me civility, then I don’t owe you civility,

I said that you’re incapable of civility, not that you owe it to me. I’d be pretty dumb to expect civility from someone I literally just said can’t do it! That would be like expecting my cat to perform calculus!

and I’m justified in my “pissitude”.

There is no logical progression there, either from the beginning of your sentence, or from anything I said to you before. See what I mean about civil discourse? You can’t read, or you choose not to read, or something, not sure what, but you certainly don’t respond to what was said in any rational way.

I mean, you literally asked me what I thought of what you said, and then I told you in answer to the question you literally asked, and you got pissy at the answer to the question that you literally asked me to answer. So your pissiness is now somehow justified! by the logic of … ??? None has been provided, or even attempted! There is no civil discourse with you.

“I mean, you literally asked me what I thought of what you said, and then I told you in answer to the question you literally asked, and you got pissy at the answer to the question that you literally asked me to answer. “

Yeah, you “answered” by insulting me. I answered with pissiness. Quelle surprise! So irrational!

” So your pissiness is now somehow justified! by the logic of … ???”

Well if I *don’t* owe you civility, because you’re not entitled to me acting in good faith, then am I not justified in “pissiness”? After all, according to your logic, you’re not entitled to anything but “jack” and “shit” from me as well, (unless you’re somehow special), and I certainly don’t think that “freedom from pissiness” falls under either “jack” or “shit”.

@dslucia

“Mrex, when you come in swinging at everyone who addresses you, they most certainly do not owe you a “good faith attempt to understand” just because they’re addressing you.

So, obviously there’s quite a bit of backstory going on here.

You see, I don’t think that white men actually can eat privilege. I think that lower class whites still suffer class oppression, a position here that most here thinks makes me a “Nazi”, despite the fact that Nazi’s literally view me, a non-straight, feminist, crazy, single mother as less human than ISIS.* Of course, my actual position is less controversial, but don’t let that get in the way of a good lie. After all, I’m not the target here, I’m the example to every other liberal that may point out that there may be some issues, that they will be met with flat out abuse. Because no-one here could ever POSSIBLY be wrong, and implying otherwise makes you a “troll”, marked out for abuse.

What follows is usually some rediculous throwdown where I spend far too much time crying because I’m a dumb shit, while multiple people such as POM take turns trolling me in hopes of baiting me into saying something bannable. I learn some good things, because I am a stupid privileged fuck, and Axe is a rockstar, and taught me a lot. I also condesended to people, which is shit on my face, but also partly bullshit, because POM and kupo and others never quite stop to think that maybe since they’re not parents, that they don’t actually have the life experience of every working class white, and that they probably shouldn’t reduce every complaint made by a white person into “whining”. POM in particular doesn’t seem to realize that most social programs in the US have waiting lists, and likes to call me self-absorbed for pointing out otherwise. And throughout it all, I’m expected to be polite, to “have empahy”, and to “not assume what others meant”, all while being misrepresented.

Well fuck that. You guys wanted to troll out a meltdown. Congrats. *bows*

I think that lower class whites still suffer class oppression, a position here that most here thinks makes me a “Nazi”, despite the fact that Nazi’s literally view me, a non-straight, feminist, crazy, single mother as less human than ISIS.

I see you have no idea what intersectional feminism is or what the vast majority of the commenters on here believe.

We agree that classism can be present regardless of race. What we don’t agree is that it’s not racist to vote for a racist platform because it might give you a small amount of economic relief. See, ignoring the racist aspects of Trump’s platform to serve your own needs is, in fact, racist.

“What we don’t agree is that it’s not racist to vote for a racist platform because it might give you a small amount of economic relief. See, ignoring the racist aspects of Trump’s platform to serve your own needs is, in fact, racist.”

I’m not sure that I’ve ever held this position, but if I did, I certainly don’t hold it now. I 150% agree that voting in a racist to serve your own needs is racist. Just like voting in a homophobe (Pence) makes you homophobic, and so on.

The argument that I do remember making is that making a mockery of lower class whites by making fun of their “economic anxiety” is counterproductive. Of course, later I learned that “fuck your economic anxiety” was aimed at people using economic anxiety to excuse racism, which in proper context was very funny. Hey, I have a dark sense of humor!

It wasn’t funny out of context.

I also made an argument that people rarely vote against their own self interest, but I also made the argument that white economic self interest and concern for POC are not mutually exclusive, and we should not treat them as such.

@SFHC

Keep trying to burn that bridge that was never there. Someday the air might catch!

Indeed, as a white male, I do wonder just how many times you have personally been the victim of covert misogyny like I have?

I don’t think this hasn’t been pointed out yet, so – IP isn’t a man. They’re nonbinary. And you know that, so I guess we can add deliberate misgendering and transphobia to your exceedingly long rap sheet.

The argument that I do remember making is that making a mockery of lower class whites by making fun of their “economic anxiety” is counterproductive. Of course, later I learned that “fuck your economic anxiety” was aimed at people using economic anxiety to excuse racism, which in proper context was very funny. Hey, I have a dark sense of humor!

I recall this being explained ad nauseam and you standing by your original position. This is the first time I’ve heard you say that you agree with the stance that voting for Trump is racist.

I learn some good things, because I am a stupid privileged fuck, and Axe is a rockstar, and taught me a lot

Believe it when I see it, no objections or disagreements, I know, and I did what I could with what I had to work with

That all said, fuck you. You don’t get to use me as the good guy to berate everyone else. We’re all tryna teach you the same shit, you’re just not getting it. You didn’t even get it when I tried to teach you, but I was nicer than the others, so you could justify ‘accepting’ my criticisms without ever fixing your bullshit. Girl, bye!

Oh, how do YOU know that it’s deliberate? If this is the first time in my “long rap sheet” here that I’ve misgendered someone, then it probably wasn’t deliberate.

Keep grasping those straws.

@IP

I doubt SFHC would lie about this. I’m sorry that I misgendered you. Full stop.

@kupo

I don’t think you ever actually listened to what I actually said if this is literally the first time you heard it. I’ve criticized white’s unwillingness to confront their racial privilege before, including my own.

But I don’t want to rehash arguments that may have been made in the past. Especially since you are right.

Thanks again all for your thoughts 🙂
I am feeling a bit better, thanks to thoughts here too.

@ Kat, yes the little things….
I got choked up over a flower delivery notice.

But also, (positive) aww, people have gone out of their way to show that they care. 🙂

For the confused out there –
Be like this. Don’t be an asshole.

These (various angry) people claim to be logical. OK, so in what other arena in life is it recommended that you be an asshole? You should be an asshole toward women (or anyone else) uh, why?

It makes no sense. Why don’t they see this?

I’m about to wrap it up here and was looking at some local weather, –
OK does the weather person stand up there and say: Hello, I’m an ASSHOLE! And you know what? Fuck your commute, fuck your various plans, fuck dangerous highway conditions, and storms and flooding, and maybe even tornados, because yeah, I’m an asshole.

While I understand the sentiment behind “better misogyny that’s out in the open than done furtively”, that doesn’t actually solve anything. All it does is legitimize the hatred and make it more acceptable and mainstream. See: 2017, massive increase in blatant hate crimes and street harassment during. I don’t feel any more at ease with proud boys screaming Nazi slogans in the streets of Charlottesville than I do with sly racist dogwhistles. In fact, I feel vastly more afraid when it’s out in the open like that, because it means they believe there’s absolutely zero social restraint on their vile beliefs (and it’s fast becoming clear that the legal restraints are paper thin). Without an agreed-upon social contract, the next step is Nazi punching, and it ratchets from there.

Incels should feel ashamed, not emboldened. They should scuttle back into their holes and think about their life choices. And we should continue to loudly call out misogyny and racism wherever we see it, whether it’s overt or subtle.

Z&T, I like the “Don’t be an asshole” mantra. Going to try to apply it more often.

Ok, I think I see where you’re coming from. I agree- this shit is fucking scary. It fucking sucks that we’re still stuck circling this drain in 2017. Fuck this.

The only thing that I can’t fully get 100% on board with is that misogynists being loud and proud doesn’t solve things. It may not actually literally SOLVE misogyny, but it does clear things up a bit. When things are covert, it’s easy to be gaslit, it’s easy to think, or be told, that you’re misreading, or exaggerating, or whatever, because dudebro is a NIIIIIIIICE GUY.

At least it’s clear what incels are; steaming piles of shit. I don’t think that it’s possible to make a reasonble argument that they’re anything but. It’s why-personal opinion- I find PUAs so much creepier than incels, since they seem like they are more likely to be functioning around women in a somewhat hidden way.

Yeah, you “answered” by insulting me. I answered with pissiness. Quelle surprise! So irrational!

Oh! Well, let’s look at this so-insulting thing I said in response to your question:

I think you said something incredibly stupid and then you blew up when called on it.

HUH.

There is literally no insult here. I didn’t even call you stupid: I said that the thing you said was stupid. And I criticized your behavior. Not you, what you did.

So I am left with only two possible options. Either you don’t read what I write and sub in some imaginary statement, or else you think that anything that doesn’t kiss your ass is an insult. Either way, I’m not reaching the conclusion that your expectations are reasonable, or that you’re capable of civil discourse. It’s impossible to have a discussion with someone who doesn’t respond to what I write, but instead responds to some unpredictable alternate statement, and it’s impossible to have a discussion with someone who goes off at the most mild criticism.

@kupo

I don’t think you ever actually listened to what I actually said if this is literally the first time you heard it.

Because she has a such a long history of lying about literally everything that I say, that I assume that literally everything that she says needs to be run through a sniff test. But she’s pretty sly and smart about it. When she lies it’s always by suggestion, and always where she can’t be proven wrong.

Cool story. I actually agree that she is very articulate. Quick question, how do you know that she’s never lied, if you have no way of telling whether what she is lying about could possibly be true or not?

For example, go ahead and prove that I KNEW that IP was nonbinary when I, as she admitted, never misgendered before.

doesn’t matter really if you know or not know, usually I use they instead of he or she just in case. important more not to judge on gender and listen what people say. of course, I can’t prove what you know or not know, but does not mean that sfhc lies, only they maybe see some evidence I did not seen, and believe that you will know IP is non-binary. I know IP non binary because they said it before.

generally I will say sfhc too straight forward maybe for some people, because they say exactly what they believe and this could intimidate some people.

when I first start comment here I experienced some disagreement, because my veiw about Russian hack story different from most people here, but i decide not to talk here about it because there manu other benefits on this website and community. and actually for while i start to see some evidence which different from my belief and my veiw of Russian hack story changes. I ask myself, how can I say i support to UA but then make this argument about Russia when I know what they capable? and then i see actually because i have strong love for russia because my family from Russia and maybe this influences my veiw.

what I mean, sometimes better to take step back for the short time and see what develop.

I don’t know what the hell is going on with you. You always say the worst thing, give the worst advice, and have the worst replies to everything. Just a few weeks ago you randomly accused me of being hostile to my sister-in-law. I just don’t get what your problem is, but can you stop making it everybody else’s problem too? We already have our own stuff to deal with. You deal with yours for a while now.

The only thing that I can’t fully get 100% on board with is that misogynists being loud and proud doesn’t solve things. It may not actually literally SOLVE misogyny, but it does clear things up a bit. When things are covert, it’s easy to be gaslit, it’s easy to think, or be told, that you’re misreading, or exaggerating, or whatever, because dudebro is a NIIIIIIIICE GUY.

Well, yes and no. Yes, in that it’s easier to see what you’re dealing with/easier to demonstrate its existence and have LONG overdue conversations, as a society, about how pervasive and toxic this shit is.

No, in that loud proud misogyny not only normalizes it, it actively amps up the vileness to a new level and makes it harder to combat. Trolls and attention-seekers try to outdo each other in viciousness. Others see it happening, and are encouraged to join in. Suddenly, the everyday “background” levels of sexism aren’t so noticeable any more.

I’m an old, and I don’t remember anywhere near this level of publicly accepted viciousness towards women in the ’70s and ’80s. Sure, there was a lot of eye-rolling condescension and disrespect, and a lot of institutional barriers, but there weren’t people with powerful media platforms openly calling for disenfranchisement and corrective rape. A candidate who said “grab them by the p*ssy” would have been instantly cast to perdition by the press. Back then, if, say, 1 in 1000 men harbored truly abhorrent, serial-killer-level beliefs about women, it was unlikely they would ever meet, much less form a club. If they wanted to promote their views, they were limited to hawking mimeographed newsletters on the street corner. Now sites like RoK and Reddit boast tens of thousands of members, with new recruits streaming in every day (because what’s easier to recruit than an angry young man seething with frustrated entitlement?). MRA crap regularly comes up at the top of Google searches, even for the most innocuous search terms. What kind of message do you suppose that sends to, say, a 14 year old girl innocently looking for advice on boys, or a 22 year old trying to get out of an abusive relationship?

Back then, it was mostly about fighting for equal employment, pay, and education. Now it’s all that plus trying to teach hordes of selfish, antisocial creeps that women are human, have bodily autonomy, and deserve basic civil rights. I can’t believe that here in the 21st century, we have to have websites dedicated to patiently explaining why being locked in jail because somebody’s manhood is feeling threatened is not okay. How much social media energy gets wasted every day on Basic Decency 101 primers?

It’s exhausting, and it makes me feel like we’ve gone a million steps backwards as a society.

Sorry for a minor derail, but I’ll say it isn’t a derail ’cause it’s about MRA-Alt-Right-Assholes. We just had a federal by-election here in Canada, and my riding just got taken (77%!) by a vocal, proud, unashamed MRA who likes spending his time on social media calling women Feminazis. His campaign banners are of him standing there with a smug smirk on his face in his stupid fashy haircut and now he’s gonna be my member of parliament for the next bajillion years and it’s awful. So I guess I’m never leaving the house again!

But we discuss the ways we attempt to keep ourselves safe from sexual assault in feminist spaces all the time. What we don’t do is tolerate people saying that we should focus prevention efforts solely on victims instead of targeting the rapists or the bystanders who enable the rape. What we don’t do is let people get away with implying or outright stating that the victim should have done this or not done that if they didn’t want to be raped.

We Hunted the Mammoth tracks and mocks the white male rage underlying the rise of Trump and Trumpism. This blog is NOT a safe space; given the subject matter -- misogyny and hate -- there's really no way it could be.