(02-12-2012 07:39 PM)Chas Wrote: The problems before 1948 had the same root cause - the creation of a Jewish state. Jews emigrated to Palestine believing the land had been promised to them by their understanding of the McMahon Agreement and/or the Balfour Declaration.

It was the effort to carve out a state of Israel that has caused the problems.

Wrong use of words- Jews fled to Palestine.

They fled from every part of the world? No, many left the places their families had been for generations for the express purpose of creating a country there.

Skepticism is not a position; it is an approach to claims.
Science is not a subject, but a method.

Europeans didn't flee to Israel they were trying to settle and form a state for quite sometime and when Hitler came along the europeans that wanted to settle parts of the middle east actually worked with the Nazi regime to implement this, this was called the transfer agreement, then ww2 came along and the rich europeans that wanted to settle in palestine made a wrong choice in friends.

And yes Israelis are european, have you ever noticed that your physical features are exactly like european physical features and very different from the vast majority of physical features in surrounding countries? There is a reason for that sweety.

You also make the completely false idea that "your people" are a special race, even though you have no evidence of this. There is NO EVIDENCE, ZERO EVIDENCE that Israelis are genetically different from any other european or european ancestry. This talk of "your people" as if you are part of a different "race" or special group of people is pretty fucking stupid and it sounds like you believe that religious bullshit.

Europeans didn't flee to Israel they were trying to settle and form a state for quite sometime and when Hitler came along the europeans that wanted to settle parts of the middle east actually worked with the Nazi regime to implement this, this was called the transfer agreement, then ww2 came along and the rich europeans that wanted to settle in palestine made a wrong choice in friends.

And yes Israelis are european, have you ever noticed that your physical features are exactly like european physical features and very different from the vast majority of physical features in surrounding countries? There is a reason for that sweety.

You also make the completely false idea that "your people" are a special race, even though you have no evidence of this. There is NO EVIDENCE, ZERO EVIDENCE that Israelis are genetically different from any other european or european ancestry. This talk of "your people" as if you are part of a different "race" or special group of people is pretty fucking stupid and it sounds like you believe that religious bullshit.

Firstly, I welcome the conversation so thank you; however, don't really like making the thread I started about I and I leaving the forum maybe you should start a thread if it's so important earmuffs.

The collect taxes and make power plants
Sorry I am trying to empathize with Palestinians but I would think if they could do it themselves they would.

You know when I started this thread I was very pro-Palestinian state.
I thought that Israel would be fine taking rest and leaving the gaza strip and the west bank to the Palestinians.

If it would be possible, you know my solution to this was frankly lets give the Israelis Newfounland or something. Sure the newfies wouldn't want to leave but there's a big "exodus" from that province right now anyways ("get it"?)

As for genetics, well you couldn't say there's no evidence that Jews are a "people" but there is very little. If you take the ashkenazi jews, sephardic and oriental jews they do share some haplotypes and makers not shared in the outside population but between these jewish populations. But that's beyond a point, nations are not created now with predisposed "nationalism" any more, did we not give up on this idea in the modern age?

But that is beyond the point. what this conversation told me particularly in the instance of shiranl is that some parties involved have no interest in peace. It doesn't matter that there's a 1/6 ratio in deaths nor does it matter if Palestinians try peacefully. they are the enemy and all who oppose. this fight is an us vs. them. all who are not with us are anti-Semites. I refuse to put that label on me. to be "anti-Zionist" (thinking that cutting up the state of israel would be a good thing) is not being anti-Semitic.

Like I said Israelis have a wall.
Israelis have check points
Israelis have military power backed by the US
Israelis have one of the most formidable espionage and intelligence organizations
now Israelis have the iron dome

Lets see how long till the Palestinians know that's there's only peaceful action that will work.....3 maybe 4 generations?
Lets see if the Israelis will kill them?

To be a "Jew" does not meant you have to follow Jewish religion. What it does mean, apart from the religious part, is the ETHNICITY and NATIONALITY of the people living in Israel, that have Jewish roots. Same way I call myself "a Croat", not European, Caucasian or whatever, a CROAT. It is not my religion, it is not my race, it is my ethnicity and my nationality. Jews are the same. Basic English language, fucktards. Fucking fuctards!!

Israelis=Jews (if we do not consider the religious side of the coin now)

Now, I will not be involved in this topic, I will keep my views to myself, but what I would like is to ask shiranl something. What is your view on the Palestinian state? To be more precise, would you like to see the state of Palestine, peace in the region and for the Palestine to pay their own bills with their own infrastructure...

Or would you prefer them to just get the fuck out of your country, so that you can finally have a normal, independent, full state, with all the borders in place and no word of Palestine anymore?

I have a theory that the truth is never told during the nine-to-five hours.-Hunter S. Thompson

I ramble? I only accuse someone of being something negative when I have evidence to accuse him. Like I&I, who said some very anti-Semite comment about how Jews love money, hence I accused him of being anti-Semite.
And I fail to understand how refugees steal land.

@ Chas:
Yes, they did. Or you think the Jews who lived in Iraq, Yemen, Morroco, Ethiopia, Egypt, Algeria, Lybia etc, etc were having the fun of their life? they weren't gassed like the Jews in Europe (I would say it was more due to lack of means then lack of will), but they suffered pogroms throughout history in Arab countries. Most of the Jews came to Israel after it was established, including my own grandparents (well....my maternal grandparents fled here before it, but the British caught their ship and lock them up in Cyprus until Israel was established).

@ I and I:
At least I'm not a racist idiot who ignores history circumstances completely.

@marieV:
So you don't think a conflict, any conflict and particulary this one, is "us VS them"? explain me this hypothesis, because as far as I know- the root of a confilct is the existence of 2 (or more) opposed sides.
When did Palestinian try peacefully? look up the PLO's charter, and the Hamas's charter. You know what, I'll be kind and bring it for you:
the PLO's charter- http://www.netaxs.com/~iris/plochart.htm
"Article 9: Armed struggle is the only way to liberate Palestine. Thus it is the overall strategy, not merely a tactical phase. The Palestinian Arab people assert their absolute determination and firm resolution to continue their armed struggle and to work for an armed popular revolution for the liberation of their country and their return to it"

Hamas's charter- http://www.thejerusalemfund.org/www.thej...arter.html"Article Thirteen: Peaceful Solutions, [Peace] Initiatives and International Conferences[Peace] initiatives, the so-called peaceful solutions, and the international conferences to resolve the Palestinian problem, are all contrary to the beliefs of the Islamic Resistance Movement....."

You can keep reading, you'll find more "diamonds" about how Palestine was given to Islam by Allah and no one, not even an Arab king, has the right to renounce it.

On the other hand, Israel's Independence Scroll (its on the bottom of the page):http://www.historama.com/online-resource..._1948.html
"WE CALL - even during the bloody attacks which have been carried out against us for months - to the members of the Arab nation residents of the State of Israel to keep the peace and partake in their share in the building of the State upon the principle of full and equal citizenship and upon the principle of appropriate representation in all institutions, temporary and permanent"

"WE EXTEND a hand of peace and good neighborliness to all the neighboring nations and their peoples and call upon them to partake in cooperation and mutual assistance with the independent Hebrew nation in its land. The State of Israel is prepared to contribute her share in the joint effort to advance the Middle East entire"

Needless to say, in our Independence Scroll you will not find one sentence declaring the land is ours because god gave it to us.

I think it is clear who wants peace and who doesn't. look at the symbols as well:
While in the symbol of the PLO and Hamas you'll find guns and swords, In Israel you'll find olive leafs- the universal symbol of peace carried by a white pigeon.

And if this is not enough, check out Israel's peace treaties with Egypt and Jordan- we got the peace treaty itself, they got land (full of oil) and water (which we always have shortage of). So who really wants peace?

Like I said:
Israel didn't have to have a wall if the Pallies didn't came from the WB and executed suicide terror attacks. same goes with the check points. and Palestinians have terrorist organization backed by Iran, Syria and Lebanon.
I know, thank you.
Israelis didn't have to have Iron Dome if the Pallies wouldn't shoot rockets at our cities!!!!

@Filox:
I don't see the difference between the Palestinian having a state and the Palestinians getting the fuck off of my country and letting me have a normal and peacefull life. I'm not an idiot and I'm not delusional- The Pallies won't disappear one day. They should have a state- but not like the one they dreaming the UN will serve them on a plate of silver. First of all- it should be demilitarized, no argument about it. Israel will not accept having a "Gaza Strip" 15 km from Tel Aviv (neither USA and many other western countries, so do not ramble about how delusional I am to demand such thing). Second of all- Jerusalem is not a question. It will remain complete under Israeli rule. And why? since I don't see anyone insisting on devide London or Washington, I don't see any reason for why there will be demand to devide Jeruslam. Also- the only "holy" site (for the atheist among you who still believe in "live and let live" when it comes to religion) which is not Israeli controlled is the Al Aqsa mosque. Guess which holy site is the only holy site where not everyone, regardless of their religion, can enter? If I'll go there- I'll be lynched. The Muqata, the headquorters of the PA, is in Ramallah. Therefor- their capital will be Ramallah.
And I mentioned they need to get off of our infrastructure?

(30-11-2012 09:05 AM)marieV Wrote: I want to start a discussion on the events that occurred yesterday at the general assembly of the united nation. Palestine was granted the status of non-member observer state.
The vote taken was 138 votes form, 9 against and 41 abstentions.
United states, Canada, Israel, Czech republic and some pacific island states voted against.

Czech Republic voted against because it has a corrupt government and one corrupt state will support another. If there would be a Palestinian nearby, I'd apologize to him on behalf of my country. Israeli leaders hold onto the power thanks to the conflict. When there is a chance of some peaceful solution, they turn up the violence and and poof, elections are done away with for a time.
Prominent Jews around the world protest against it and want to have nothing in common with this state of Israel. Specially the British ones were vocal about it.

(30-11-2012 09:05 AM)marieV Wrote: on the situation is that Palestine is finally going the non-violent route to reaching statehood. This is the same direction Israel attempted and won statehood with.

Israel won its statehood through terrorism and mob practices, by units that formed from the former Jewish legion of the British empire. Most of the current territory is illegally conquered since then. I wouldn't call that non-violent.

(30-11-2012 09:05 AM)marieV Wrote: The question of who was there first is absurd in my opinion. The Jewish people were obviously there "first" since if we categorize "people" by their faith that is the answer since Islam was created in 600 CE (ish) and Judaism is older than that then of course then Jews have a older religion then Islam. But is is absurd because if Caucasians were told to go back to Europe from North America do you think there would be such an majority of the UN voting for that?

It doesn't matter who was there first, nobody has the right to come after 2000 years and claim exclusive ownership of the land. Which was, according to Bible, won by countless massacres, just read about the conquest of Kanaan and Jericho. Not a good tradition to continue. Furthermore, the state of Israel is Sionist. Sionism is a form of racism, Jewish racial supremacy ideology. To have a state formed around such an ideology is outrageous, no less than apartheid in South Africa or worse examples from history.

The reason why we don't add up Israel right there with crazy militant states like North Korea is, that Israel's countless sins and UN-decreed punishments are being repressed by U.S. veto for decades. Only now there is hope that Palestine might gain some recognition and protection. I hope it will do Palestinians some good and maybe make them less vicious after so many years of cruel fight and Islamic extremization in face of danger. Everyone deserves an equal footing in a state, nobody has the right to create an ethnically exclusive state, except now there absolutely have to be two. You might think Jews got their lesson in WW2, but apparently they learned from the wrong side.