sex0r:lolpix: "When fascism comes to America, it will be wrapped in the flag and carrying the cross."

Too late. It came in the form of "hope and change."

If you ever wondered how on earth a lying, drug-using, under-achieving, draft-dodging, illiterate, inarticulate, retarded faux-cowboy could ever get voted to the Presidency for one term, let alone two, all it takes is a voting bloc full of sex0rs.

I sympathize what happened to this man and the untold tens of thousands of wounded veterans whose lives have been ruined by these wars, but never seem to reach the headlines. I understand his frustration over having his and other veterans' lives sacrificed for an ambiguous and falsely-premised cause. However:

"I would not be writing this letter if I had been wounded fighting in Afghanistan against those forces that carried out the attacks of 9/11."

I'm sorry, sir, but you don't get to choose whose ass you get to personally kick when you volunteer for the military. I find it hard to sympathize with this angle of his rant, nor do I particularly understand his supposition that Bush personally profited from the war. There is an undertone in this letter that reads much like an OWS pamphlet, and were I a wounded veteran, I might ask him to refrain from claiming to speak on my behalf.

keylock71:sendtodave: keylock71: in my mind, the Bush Administration bares the responsibility for all these lost lives. It was their decision to commit forces. It was their decision to invade a country half-assed with no defined victory conditions. Does that absolve the folks who allowed themselves to be led by their noses by the Bush Administration into a senseless war? No.

I wholly agree.

I just finished reading this book a few weeks back: To End All Wars

Obviously, it's about a completely different war in a completely different time, but the parallels between the run up to WWI and the Iraq War are interesting. Especially with regards to the way dissenting voices were treated.

Worth a read, if you're so inclined.

Even though I was blindly pro-war at the time, I always hated both sides using false analogies to justify their position on the war. The anti-war crowd tried to compare Iraq to Vietnam, as if we were fighting a proxy Cold War brushfire in Iraq with a superpower funneling in military aid (which, it turns out, didn't happen until we occupied the country and Al-Queda took advantage of the chaos we put in place). I was equally irritated by the drumbeats in the pro-war camp equivocating Hussein with Hitler and trying to compare 2002-2003 to 1938-39 - as if Iraq was attempting to annex client states throughout the region and the rest of the world was trying to avoid another war of attrition brought on by monarchies subservient to their war ministers.

We tried to fight a 20th century war all over again; we were told (and he hoped) it was going to be the second round of Desert Storm. But that conflict in 1990-91 poisoned our understanding of war, and sadly I and a lot of other people didn't realize that until almost two years too late.

You sent us to fight and die in Iraq after you, Mr. Cheney, dodged the draft in Vietnam, and you, Mr. Bush, went AWOL from your National Guard unit. Your cowardice and selfishness were established decades ago. You were not willing to risk yourselves for our nation but you sent hundreds of thousands of young men and women to be sacrificed in a senseless war with no more thought than it takes to put out the garbage.

HotWingConspiracy:muck4doo: HotWingConspiracy: muck4doo: Here you are saying stupid shiat. But you are already used to that.

Names of actual conservatives please. Put up or shut up.

I asked you to give me a quote of mine first supporting war, and you never did. Do you really want quotes supporting war mongering from Democrats?

Who are the "actual conservatives" that weren't happy with Bush? Why won't you take this opportunity to infrom us who the "actual conservatives" are? This way we won't need to rely on the fake conservatives that endlessly heaped praise on him.

Bruce Bartlett, former Reagan aide. He eventually came around. Current SECDEF Chuck Hagel wasn't a fan of OIF.

HotWingConspiracy:muck4doo: HotWingConspiracy: muck4doo: Here you are saying stupid shiat. But you are already used to that.

Names of actual conservatives please. Put up or shut up.

I asked you to give me a quote of mine first supporting war, and you never did. Do you really want quotes supporting war mongering from Democrats?

Who are the "actual conservatives" that weren't happy with Bush? Why won't you take this opportunity to infrom us who the "actual conservatives" are? This way we won't need to rely on the fake conservatives that endlessly heaped praise on him.

I genuinely thought that Walter "Freedom Fries" Jones had a moment of clarity in 2006 when he was one of the first Republicans in Congress to admit we had made a mistake. Then we figured out he was doing it just to hedge his bets against a potential challenge in the election.

muck4doo:HotWingConspiracy: muck4doo: HotWingConspiracy: muck4doo: Here you are saying stupid shiat. But you are already used to that.

Names of actual conservatives please. Put up or shut up.

I asked you to give me a quote of mine first supporting war, and you never did. Do you really want quotes supporting war mongering from Democrats?

Who are the "actual conservatives" that weren't happy with Bush? Why won't you take this opportunity to infrom us who the "actual conservatives" are? This way we won't need to rely on the fake conservatives that endlessly heaped praise on him.

Who the fark cares?

You're the one that brought these mystery "actual conservatives" up.

You're going to get your talking points from Daily Kos and TPM anyways.

I'm sorry, I don't visit these sites.

You don't give a rats ass what conservatives actually say.

Which conservatives? Do you have any names? Because again, I'm happy to bury you in quotes from conservatives praising Bush for his staunch conservatism. But maybe they aren't "actual conservatives", so you could clear all that up for us with your list.

Dr.Zom:Yogimus: You know what makes me weep? How everyone OTHER than those two get a complete pass.

/lookin at you congress

We'll never know what Cheney's Intel Unit was telling those guys behind the scenes. I distinctly remember one congressman saying Cheney's people told him Saddam had drones that could reach the east coast with nerve gas. Total BS, but scary. They wanted war, they got it, and they killed anybody who got in their way.

I've looked for that article since and it's pretty much gone down the memory hole like so much other stuff.

Still, they should have know they were liars. I could tell and I'm nobody.

It's very easy for regular people like us to immediately dismiss or distrust claims like drones with nerve gas, Colin Powell's vial of super poison, and the like. When you're a member of Congress and senior state department and pentagon officials tell you to your face about these threats, I imagine you take them a bit more seriously. Some in Congress certainly wanted to believe it (the usual crowd of warmongers and manifest destiny types) but many accepted what they were told because the respected the source of the lie.

Besides, this is just a talking point to pin the blame for the whole mess on Democrats who were lied to.

Obama has done nothing but expand the war and continue to eliminate civil liberties. The left showed themselves as the traitors they really are when the "anti-war" that were so vocal during the Bush years haven't been heard from since Obama took office.

lordaction:Obama has done nothing but expand the war and continue to eliminate civil liberties. The left showed themselves as the traitors they really are when the "anti-war" that were so vocal during the Bush years haven't been heard from since Obama took office.

The republicans have done something that is not reversible. Something so f*cking wrong and horrible that human beings will NEVER see the end of it.

UNC_Samurai:The anti-war crowd tried to compare Iraq to Vietnam, as if we were fighting a proxy Cold War brushfire in Iraq with a superpower funneling in military aid (which, it turns out, didn't happen until we occupied the country and Al-Queda took advantage of the chaos we put in place).

Well, we made it another Vietnam. So, really, anyone who said "this will turn into another Vietnam fiasco" was right.

sendtodave:UNC_Samurai: The anti-war crowd tried to compare Iraq to Vietnam, as if we were fighting a proxy Cold War brushfire in Iraq with a superpower funneling in military aid (which, it turns out, didn't happen until we occupied the country and Al-Queda took advantage of the chaos we put in place).

Well, we made it another Vietnam. So, really, anyone who said "this will turn into another Vietnam fiasco" was right.

HotWingConspiracy:muck4doo: HotWingConspiracy: muck4doo: HotWingConspiracy: muck4doo: Here you are saying stupid shiat. But you are already used to that.

Names of actual conservatives please. Put up or shut up.

I asked you to give me a quote of mine first supporting war, and you never did. Do you really want quotes supporting war mongering from Democrats?

Who are the "actual conservatives" that weren't happy with Bush? Why won't you take this opportunity to infrom us who the "actual conservatives" are? This way we won't need to rely on the fake conservatives that endlessly heaped praise on him.

Who the fark cares?

You're the one that brought these mystery "actual conservatives" up.

You're going to get your talking points from Daily Kos and TPM anyways.

I'm sorry, I don't visit these sites.

You don't give a rats ass what conservatives actually say.

Which conservatives? Do you have any names? Because again, I'm happy to bury you in quotes from conservatives praising Bush for his staunch conservatism. But maybe they aren't "actual conservatives", so you could clear all that up for us with your list.

For what it's worth, Lincoln Chaffee did vote against the Iraq War Resolution. He was the only Senate Republican to do so. And for his courage he was almost primaried by a social conservative knuckle-dragger in 2006. And five House Republicans not named Ron Paul. Jimmy Duncan can be a social conservative dick on social issues, but he consistently voted against measures supporting and funding the Iraq War. John Hostettler lost his seat in 2006 to a social conservative Democrat. Amo Houghton retired after his 2003-2005 term (he was also one of the few House Republicans to vote against Clinton's impeachment). Jim Leach could have survived the 2006 elections had he not refused to play ball with the anti-way social conservative groups. Connie Morella lost in the 2002 election because after Maryland's post-2000-Census redistricting, MD-8 was made much more Democratic.

So the only Congressional still left from that sliver of No votes is Jimmy Duncan.

UNC_Samurai:For what it's worth, Lincoln Chaffee did vote against the Iraq War Resolution. He was the only Senate Republican to do so. And for his courage he was almost primaried by a social conservative knuckle-dragger in 2006. And five House Republicans not named Ron Paul. Jimmy Duncan can be a social conservative dick on social issues, but he consistently voted against measures supporting and funding the Iraq War. John Hostettler lost his seat in 2006 to a social conservative Democrat. Amo Houghton retired after his 2003-2005 term (he was also one of the few House Republicans to vote against Clinton's impeachment). Jim Leach could have survived the 2006 elections had he not refused to play ball with the anti-way social conservative groups. Connie Morella lost in the 2002 election because after Maryland's post-2000-Census redistricting, MD-8 was made much more Democratic.

So the only Congressional still left from that sliver of No votes is Jimmy Duncan.

None of the Democrats who got strong-armed into cowardly going along with it actually wanted it.

It was wanted by Republicans.It was desired by Republicans.It was designed by Republicans.It was promoted by Republicans.It was implemented by Republicans.

I'm sure somebody held a gun to the 85 Democrats that voted in favor of OIL (operation Iraqi liberation)

or they are in states/districts with either a large number of military bases or defense contractors both of which would see a LOT of income over the next several years... enriching the state budget and the 'political donor class'... both of which would be added as feathers into their hat.

sendtodave:UNC_Samurai: The anti-war crowd tried to compare Iraq to Vietnam, as if we were fighting a proxy Cold War brushfire in Iraq with a superpower funneling in military aid (which, it turns out, didn't happen until we occupied the country and Al-Queda took advantage of the chaos we put in place).

Well, we made it another Vietnam. So, really, anyone who said "this will turn into another Vietnam fiasco" was right.

On the contrary, I think Afghanistan would be a closer comparison. Depending on when you consider the Vietnam War to have begun (1955, 1961, or 1964-65) the conflict in Afghanistan is our first- or second- longest war in national history. We're no closer to neutralizing the Taliban as a political-military entity, Al-Queda has migrated to Africa, and the country next door is an ally that we have to constantly watch because we know they're eventually going to stab us in the back.

UNC_Samurai:sendtodave: UNC_Samurai: The anti-war crowd tried to compare Iraq to Vietnam, as if we were fighting a proxy Cold War brushfire in Iraq with a superpower funneling in military aid (which, it turns out, didn't happen until we occupied the country and Al-Queda took advantage of the chaos we put in place).

Well, we made it another Vietnam. So, really, anyone who said "this will turn into another Vietnam fiasco" was right.

On the contrary, I think Afghanistan would be a closer comparison. Depending on when you consider the Vietnam War to have begun (1955, 1961, or 1964-65) the conflict in Afghanistan is our first- or second- longest war in national history. We're no closer to neutralizing the Taliban as a political-military entity, Al-Queda has migrated to Africa, and the country next door is an ally that we have to constantly watch because we know they're eventually going to stab us in the back.

Hm, good point.

Iraq gets many Like Vietnam Points due to the fiasco and false pretenses, but Afganistan might win out solely on the quagmire category.

fusillade762:StoPPeRmobile: fusillade762: StoPPeRmobile: Remember when Sadam complained about Kuwait slant drilling so the the borders were re-drawn?

Saddam even asked permission first (sort of):

Saddam Hussein - If we could keep the whole of the Shatt al Arab - our strategic goal in our war with Iran - we will make concessions (to the Kuwaitis). But, if we are forced to choose between keeping half of the Shatt and the whole of Iraq (i.e., in Saddam s view, including Kuwait ) then we will give up all of the Shatt to defend our claims on Kuwait to keep the whole of Iraq in the shape we wish it to be. (pause) What is the United States' opinion on this?

U.S. Ambassador Glaspie - We have no opinion on your Arab - Arab conflicts, such as your dispute with Kuwait. Secretary (of State James) Baker has directed me to emphasize the instruction, first given to Iraq in the 1960′s, that the Kuwait issue is not associated with America. (Saddam smiles)

Thanks but that's not a scholarly source.

On 25 July 1990, the U.S. Ambassador in Iraq, April Glaspie, asked the Iraqi high command to explain the military preparations in progress, including the massing of Iraqi troops near the border.

The American ambassador declared to her Iraqi interlocutor that Washington, "inspired by the friendship and not by confrontation, does not have an opinion" on the disagreement between Kuwait and Iraq, stating "we have no opinion on the Arab-Arab conflicts."

She also let Saddam Hussein know that the U.S. did not intend "to start an economic war against Iraq". These statements may have caused Saddam to believe he had received a diplomatic green light from the United States to invade Kuwait.[20][21]

That's wikipedia. You can follow the sources yourself.Seems pretty clear to me we could have avoided Desert Storm if we'd focused more on diplomacy. And been less gullible about "Incubator babies dashed to the floor by mustache-twirling Iraqi soldiers" bullshiat.

Wasn't trying to bash you or even wiki but every source but the NY times and LA times are from one-sided sources that appear to have political or monetary motivation. Plus those newspapers will be dismissed as liberal rags. Actually, I don't even think those newspaper articles are even referenced in wiki.

sendtodave:UNC_Samurai: The anti-war crowd tried to compare Iraq to Vietnam, as if we were fighting a proxy Cold War brushfire in Iraq with a superpower funneling in military aid (which, it turns out, didn't happen until we occupied the country and Al-Queda took advantage of the chaos we put in place).

Well, we made it another Vietnam. So, really, anyone who said "this will turn into another Vietnam fiasco" was right.

Actually, Iraq didn't turn into another Vietnam for us. In terms of scale, it doesn't even come close. Fiasco, yes; Vietnam, no.

I find it interesting that the American media has chosen to completely ignore what should be a huge story: Lyndon Johnson's recently declassified Oval Office tapes and records prove that Richard M. Nixon committed treason, while a candidate. The BBC wrote a piece on it with links to the records. It seems that Nixon dispatched a campaign aid to enter into secret negotiations with the North Vietnamese government while the 1968 Paris Peace Talks were going on. His message: withdraw from the talks until after the election and he would cut them a better deal. This is prima facie treason. Johnson's team was on the verge of an cease-fire agreement and was positioned to order cessation of the bombing of the North within days. This would have ended the war. Nixon was successful and the peace talks fell apart. Johnson decided that since he had learned of this treason by having the North Vietnamese ambassador's phone bugged, going public would compromise the CIA and NSA. So he remained silent. He did provide Hubert Humphrey with enough information to bury Nixon in the election, but Humphrey thought that the scandal would rock an already pissed-off population and shelved the information. Nixon campaigned on getting us out of that war asap, while he was using back-channels to insure that it would continue. Nixon was elected by less than a 1% margin. Afterward, he broke his promise to North Vietnam and expanded our involvement in SE Asia by going into Laos and Cambodia. The result was the deaths of 23,000 additional American servicemen. Watergate was nothing in comparison to this.

sendtodave:Iraq gets many Like Vietnam Points due to the fiasco and false pretenses, but Afganistan might win out solely on the quagmire category.

Iraq is more „vietnamy" than afghanistan is though because of its just sheer derpitude from the get go.

Afghanistan wasn't a fools errand from the get go: it had broad international support, a good mandate, and if it had been persued with vigor and received the full attention of the Bush Administration after it was launched it could've succeeded. Might not've, but it had a chance at least.

Iraq never had a snowballs chance in hell at being anything other than a complete cluster fark. There was zero planning for what to do after the invasion had been completed, there was no broad support base amongst the international community (the token contributions made by the coalition of the willing were more about wanting to get or stay in Washington's good standing than in any real conviction or mandate), Bremer made enormous, irreconcilable mistakes from day 1... no chance. Just none.

Shut up, all of you. Go away. You are complicit in one way or another in a giant crime containing many great crimes. Atone in secret. Wash the blood off your hands in private. Because there were people who got it right. Anthony Zinni. Eric Shiseki. Hans Blix. Mohamed ElBaradei. The McClatchy Washington bureau guys. Dozens of liberal academics who got called fifth-columnists and worse. Professional military men whose careers suffered as a result. Hundreds of thousands of people in the streets around the world. The governments of Canada and France. Those people, I will listen to this week. Go to hell, the rest of you, and go there in silence and in shame.

At first, I was wholly taken in. Right up to: "You sent us to fight and die in Iraq after you, Mr. Cheney, dodged the draft in Vietnam, and you, Mr. Bush, went AWOL from your National Guard unit." In a single sentence, it became clear that this is a politically-driven journalistic tirade, intended for mass consumption by the like-minded, rather than an actual letter meant for the eyes of the alleged recipients. A clue- "Going AWOL" is actually far less of a "crime" than it's made to sound. If you're in the military, and you go on a day trip to the next town over, you've gone AWOL. In fact, you don't even have to really go anywhere. If your unit finds that it can't contact you at a moment's notice, you've technically "Gone AWOL". You can be AWOL in the goddamn bathroom.

Another aspect. Whether Saddam actually had chemical agents put in missiles or bombs was immaterial. He reneged on the conditions agreed to in the surrender from the first Desert Storm. At that point in time, Bush was free to commit troops as he saw fit, as a continuation of the first Gulf War. Certainly, it was ill- advised, but not "illegal" by any stretch of the imagination. You'd have a better chance prosecuting Kennedy for the bay of Pigs operation.

Alphax:Snowflake Tubbybottom: Everybody always seems to forget:Seventy-Two Percent of Americans Support War Against Iraq[upload.wikimedia.org image 800x460]It's easy to look back with what you now know my friend but you enlisted knowing they can send you anywhere at any time. Godspeed.

Not relevant. Popularity doesn't make crimes not criminal.

When the stance is embraced by 2/3 of the nation's lawmakers (and 98% of the controlling party), it DOES make the crimes not criminal.