Re: Looking forward to having Steam on Linux? Read this.

Zancarius wrote:

If he's as disappointed with Windows 8 as is claimed, it wouldn't be too surprising then to see that Valve is highly determined to push a Linux client out the door. On the other hand, I'm almost certain I remembered reading some musings about Linux support back when Valve released their OS X client. This is probably something they've had in mind for a while, but I'm still half-convinced Windows 8 has given them some additional motivation. With everything you've all found, I think this at least partially confirms those suspicions.

Also, what about the rumored Steam console? Much of the speculation I've read seems to lean toward it being Linux-based (if it ever does appear), but it almost seems too good to be true...

Off-topic but tangentially related:

Having used the Windows 8 release preview, I can say that if I were a developer targeting multiple platforms, I'd be pretty disappointed. It's true that there are some improvements, and if I put my Optimism Hat on for longer than is otherwise healthy, Metro doesn't look that bad. At best it feels toyish--at worst it potentially threatens any semblance of productivity. That said, there are two classifications of people I think will have the hardest time transitioning: 1) Mostly illiterate users who, either by age or by choice, don't want to have to deal with unnecessary change or lack the patience for such a dramatic paradigm shift; and 2) power users who are easily offended if the OS makes them feel stupid.

In another life, I once earned a living doing tech support, and I can say with a degree of certainty that a significant number of people in demographic #1 will have a very difficult time transitioning (these are people who had a hard time switching from Windows 98 to XP!). Gamers tend to fall under demographic #2, and while the majority of them will probably be largely apathetic and use Windows 8 because it "still works," the rest who occasionally do things other than play games on their systems may be open to alternatives (and that's the key). I suspect that many people from both #1 and #2 will continue to hold onto Windows 7 come hell or high water, possibly forcing Microsoft's hand with regards to the desktop app, but I can't imagine any scenario other than one that favors Linux, even if only slightly.

But then, Valve has had a curious advantage when it comes to foresight. Steam is a good example of taking a market by storm before any of the big players had much of a chance to realize what happened. I even remember some pundits in the early days scoffing at the notion of downloading games: "That'll never work!"

I'm not saying this means anything about Microsoft or Linux in particular, but after that video, I can't help myself from wondering just what it DOES mean...

Apologies also for the lengthy post. I hope this doesn't bother anyone!

No one should have to apologies for long posts as long as they are well written.

But why would they release a linux client when they are working on a linux console (pure rumor of course)? Wouldn't that undermine the sales potentialof that console, because in the end you could just aswell take a PC with the obvious advantages (hardware upgrades, more versatile, keyboard and mouse) and slap linux on it.

My prediction is that Windows 7 will be the next Windows XP. It will be used by a huge number of people for the next 7-8 years. There really isn't the need for a new windows.Even as a linux user I have to admit that Windows 7 does what it is supposed to do and does it well. With this in mind I don't think it is likely that Windows 8 somehow pushed Valve into working on Steam for Linux. People can just stay with 7 for as long as they want and are not missing out on anything.

I tried Windows 8 on a virtual machine and it was horrible. Why on earth does metro hide important menus (like open tabs in IE) when there is plenty of room on my 28" screen.Everytime I wanted to see how many and which tabs I had open I had to right click somewhere. Metro and desktop simply don't mix. Some apps are designed so that you scroll from left to right. What does that mean on a desktop? I had to drag some stupid horizontal scroll bar with my mouse to use this app.

Re: Looking forward to having Steam on Linux? Read this.

People that hated Windows Vista, stuck with XP. People who hate Windows 8 will stick with 7. This seems to be the trend where Microsoft alternates between releasing a decent OS and a crappy OS. The only people who don't have that luxury are gamers who want to play the latest and greatest. For example, I know many gamers who preferred XP but they still got Vista because DirectX 10 checked for it and they wanted to play Halo 2.

Re: Looking forward to having Steam on Linux? Read this.

blackout23 wrote:

No one should have to apologies for long posts as long as they are well written.

But why would they release a linux client when they are working on a linux console (pure rumor of course)? Wouldn't that undermine the sales potentialof that console, because in the end you could just aswell take a PC with the obvious advantages (hardware upgrades, more versatile, keyboard and mouse) and slap linux on it.

My prediction is that Windows 7 will be the next Windows XP. It will be used by a huge number of people for the next 7-8 years. There really isn't the need for a new windows.Even as a linux user I have to admit that Windows 7 does what it is supposed to do and does it well. With this in mind I don't think it is likely that Windows 8 somehow pushed Valve into working on Steam for Linux. People can just stay with 7 for as long as they want and are not missing out on anything.

I tried Windows 8 on a virtual machine and it was horrible. Why on earth does metro hide important menus (like open tabs in IE) when there is plenty of room on my 28" screen.Everytime I wanted to see how many and which tabs I had open I had to right click somewhere. Metro and desktop simply don't mix. Some apps are designed so that you scroll from left to right. What does that mean on a desktop? I had to drag some stupid horizontal scroll bar with my mouse to use this app.

I guess it's a habit. I tend to be long-winded (for better or worse). I need to remind myself that no one here is going to get upset; after all, part of the reason I lurked the Arch forums for so long (besides using Arch, of course) was because of the fascinating, detailed discussions. I just hate stepping on toes...

Since ConnorBehan also posted something similar, I'll bounce my thoughts off both of you. Apologies if this is confused slightly, as I edited the post after previewing and caught it!

ConnorBehan wrote:

People that hated Windows Vista, stuck with XP. People who hate Windows 8 will stick with 7. This seems to be the trend where Microsoft alternates between releasing a decent OS and a crappy OS. The only people who don't have that luxury are gamers who want to play the latest and greatest. For example, I know many gamers who preferred XP but they still got Vista because DirectX 10 checked for it and they wanted to play Halo 2.

Anyway, I agree completely on all of your points--both of you--which is also why I'm suspect that purported console won't see the light of day. It's probably just a rumor and also a dose of wishful thinking. (I personally don't like consoles and wouldn't buy one for games I could otherwise play on a PC, though I do have a Wii which is great for family get-togethers or just fun people-time.)

I also think the predictions about Windows 7 are spot on. Windows 8 may be the next Vista, only worse. Ignoring the obvious fear MS has of Android and iOS having a strangle-hold on the mobile sector, it almost seems like it's a new version of Windows for the sake of releasing a new version. Windows 7 isn't that old, and it still works well. In fact, I have it on my system (dual boot between physical disks); I just seldom ever boot to Windows since I don't play games much, and doing Real Work under Windows feels like an exercise in frustration. That said, I didn't mind 7 all that much, and it was basically what I felt Vista should have been. Given your suggestions, I suspect that it's possible Windows 8 may be pushed onto the mobile market sector and then stamped out by established OSes (again, Android and iOS), only to be swept under the rug with the likes of Microsoft Bob and others. I just have a very difficult time picturing people I've known over the years taking such a dramatic paradigm shift in basic usage all that well. It's going to confuse the hell out of some users...

IMO, Metro is the biggest disaster for desktop computing. Of course, it wasn't specifically designed for the desktop, which is why it boggles my mind that Windows 8 doesn't automatically start the desktop app or have a different usage profile when it's installed on a desktop (rather than tablet or mobile device). Thus, there are two things that killed it for me (and may kill it for gamers, too): 1) The more or less forced requirement of using touch gestures with a mouse on a desktop install (huh?) and 2) the complete removal of any visual cues and the reliance on hot zones to activate menus. I mean, I'm not the smartest guy in the world, but that it took me more than 15 minutes of poking around just to figure out how to turn the machine off without first logging out and using the power off feature from there is pretty bad (to be fair, the solution was somewhat obvious once discovered; you touch the settings hotzone where show desktop should be--or the right side of the screen--and then from settings, go to shutdown). I can't imagine what's going to happen to people who have spent the last 16-17 years being conditioned that they can do everything from the "start" button when suddenly that's gone.

I'm still curious, though (this is mostly directed toward blackout23, but I'm throwing it out there to see what the consensus is). If Windows 8 really didn't have much impact on Valve's decision (and you raise good points in favor that it's not), I wonder what provoked them? Business sense (likely)? A little more untapped market share (also likely)? The fact that in spite of being outnumbered by Mac and Windows users, Linux users consistently spend more on average per person (obviously not in total, again due to numbers) during the Humble Bundle drives (possible but a bit of a stretch)? A mix or common sense?

In a manner of speaking, it's rather interesting. For years we've battled this stigma and FUD from the mainstream as being cheap anti-corporate freeloaders, and yet on the whole when it comes to donation drives, Linux users are usually a little more generous than our peers. (Possible selectivity bias warning since most of the metrics I've seen are related to indie games, and Linux users tend to have very favorable opinions of indie devs--take it as you will!) Truth be told, I really hope this is at least partially Valve's motivation, because I wouldn't have any heartburn forking over a reasonable sum of cash to play games I like on Linux.

...in a way, it's also a somewhat selfish and/or self-centered desire on my part. There's nothing more satisfying than being on TeamSpeak and hearing someone ask a question related to networks or a domain, pop open a shell, and answer their question while everyone else usually pauses with "Errm, uhh, I can't check that right now..."

Re: Looking forward to having Steam on Linux? Read this.

Maybe Gabe just fell in love with the penguin and now steam on linux is something personal.I don't think that the humble bundles and the generosity of linux users has much to do with it.Games will still cost the same (probably) so there is no easy way to monetize on it.

I hope we get an official statement as to why they started working more on steam for linux at least after the release of the first steam for linux client.

Re: Looking forward to having Steam on Linux? Read this.

Zancarius wrote:

IMO, Metro is the biggest disaster for desktop computing. Of course, it wasn't specifically designed for the desktop, which is why it boggles my mind that Windows 8 doesn't automatically start the desktop app or have a different usage profile when it's installed on a desktop (rather than tablet or mobile device). Thus, there are two things that killed it for me (and may kill it for gamers, too): 1) The more or less forced requirement of using touch gestures with a mouse on a desktop install (huh?) and 2) the complete removal of any visual cues and the reliance on hot zones to activate menus. I mean, I'm not the smartest guy in the world, but that it took me more than 15 minutes of poking around just to figure out how to turn the machine off without first logging out and using the power off feature from there is pretty bad (to be fair, the solution was somewhat obvious once discovered; you touch the settings hotzone where show desktop should be--or the right side of the screen--and then from settings, go to shutdown). I can't imagine what's going to happen to people who have spent the last 16-17 years being conditioned that they can do everything from the "start" button when suddenly that's gone.

This reminds me a lot of Unity. Maybe this will happen except replace Ubuntu with Windows and replace Mint with GNU/Linux.

Re: Looking forward to having Steam on Linux? Read this.

That chart is awfully interesting. While I'm reluctant to pin this on Unity directly, that does seem to hint that users generally don't like having tried and true UIs disrupted for the sake of progress.

And, well, not to sound like a stick in the mud, but I can't really blame them. I don't like it either!

I haven't used Ubuntu for a long time, but I thought you could change your default login session from Unity to the standard Gnome 3 shell?

Re: Looking forward to having Steam on Linux? Read this.

Zancarius wrote:

That chart is awfully interesting. While I'm reluctant to pin this on Unity directly, that does seem to hint that users generally don't like having tried and true UIs disrupted for the sake of progress.

And, well, not to sound like a stick in the mud, but I can't really blame them. I don't like it either!

I haven't used Ubuntu for a long time, but I thought you could change your default login session from Unity to the standard Gnome 3 shell?

Possibly. I know you can switch to Gnome 3 fallback mode, but it's not immediately obvious how.

DarkCerberus wrote:

I presume that since valve are doing steam for linux, that they'll produce the software for all linux distributions (i.e provide generic support).

I hope so. I don't like having to install outdated soname-provider packages for software which assumes everybody uses Ubuntu.

Re: Looking forward to having Steam on Linux? Read this.

Concerning the windows 8 discussion, we have already seen the whole ' forced desktop UI change' thing with ubuntu (and gnome 3) and we all saw how that went (the Mint guys making their own desktop environment, the epic fork of gnome 2 right here on the Arch forums) so I think that alone could cause a fall in Windows users... And let's face it, Unity wasn't *that* bad, and Metro is a similar goal, made dreadful...

As for Steam, I don't see the point in it in the first place, at least not as a requirement for gaming. if all I want to do is play my game I shouldn't need Steam, but apparently many new titles are Steam-only.

I'm not overly excited for the Steam Linux client because I also know that it won't just magically make all the games we know and love work without WINE, game developers will still need to create native Linux versions, which they could have done without Steam. Obviously the client will make a few developers take notice when it becomes the new 'big thing' and so they give us a few games just to show they're in with the crowd, so at best, a Linux Steam client is a small spark to possibly boom later on.

On the plus side, I know many people who don't like Microsoft/Windows and only stick to it because their games work on it - should the boom in Linux Steam gaming truly take off, people with that mindset will happily leave Windows forever, and the snowball rolls on!

"Some humans would do anything to see if it was possible to do it. If you put a large switch in some cave somewhere, with a sign on it saying "End-of-the-World Switch. PLEASE DO NOT TOUCH", the paint wouldn't even have time to dry."

Re: Looking forward to having Steam on Linux? Read this.

I think Left 4 Dead 2 and Team Fortress 2 are pretty much guaranteed for day-1. The rest of the Valve games will follow not long after that, if the Mac port of Steam was any indication.

This is true. Once Source is ported, Source-based games won't be much of an issue.

There's already a number of cross-platform indie titles on Steam (like Osmos) or others that could be readily made cross-platform (Altitude, which I believe is a Java game). Sales or adoption of those titles might determine what other players are willing to enter the ring.

Personally, I'm not holding out much hope for anything beyond a handful of games. I happen to like Steam (it's convenient), and having a Linux option would be fantastic. Even if it only meant I could play Portal 2, as MrCode suggested. I'd be pretty pleased with just that alone. My game time is pretty limited these days, and outside of maybe 3 or 4 titles, Minecraft is about the only other thing I play.

Re: Looking forward to having Steam on Linux? Read this.

Their fear that this might encourage Linux users to send them support requests? And the fact that anyone who wants to try wine can easily do this? If they really wanted to help wine users they would make a build of the game that linked to libwine.

Re: Looking forward to having Steam on Linux? Read this.

As I said before on another forum:

Personnally I don't care about Steam.If Valve finally decided to port Steam on GNU/Linux, this is just for money, nothing more. They know, there are thousands of frustrated players waiting for it. Linuxers are potential customers.If Ubuntu wasn't so popular in casual world, we wouldn't have any Steam Port.

Steam includes many games with DRM and online activation. For me, this state of mind in just incompatible with the GNU/Linux philosophy. I can give you an example: I enjoyed Skyrim many weeks, I had money to buy it, but I didn't.Why? Because I'm pissed off about Steam activation. Right now, It's easier to play cracked Skyrim compared to regular Skyrim.

For me, when you buy a game on Steam, the game isn't really yours. It's a shame.

Right now, games are too much Steam dependent, as they were before on Windows.And I didn't say anything about the licence and rights...

Re: Looking forward to having Steam on Linux? Read this.

Ypnose wrote:

Why? Because I'm pissed off about Steam activation. Right now, It's easier to play cracked Skyrim compared to regular Skyrim.

Uh, Skyrim doesn't require any activation on Steam. Very few games do actually (mainly ubisoft games). And i say that as somebody who owns 400+ games on Steam. But go ahead and keep lying to yourself to justify your piracy.

And of course Valve want to make money. You think they're porting their client and games out of the kindness of their heart? They're a business, they exist to make money. Does that make them evil? No. They actually seem to be one of the most moral companies out there. And believe it or not, that's how the world works. It doesn't revolve around the idealistic "free as in beer" philosophy.

Re: Looking forward to having Steam on Linux? Read this.

I just played Skyrim for a test, I didn't play the entire game (I just started the story), so stop complaining about piracy or something...And Skyrim NEEDS Steam: http://forums.steampowered.com/forums/s … ?t=2198311In my circle of friends, I'm the only one buying my games even if it looks strange. I did it many times especially when we have kind of OilRush or Humble Indie Bundle.

Mountainjew wrote:

No. They actually seem to be one of the most moral companies out there.

Moral company? What do you mean?Ho yeah, they sell games with interesting prices, and they include thousands of DRM / protections to avoid second-hand sales for example.This is not my definition of moral.

Re: Looking forward to having Steam on Linux? Read this.

Ypnose wrote:

I just played Skyrim for a test, I didn't play the entire game (I just started the story), so stop complaining about piracy or something...And Skyrim NEEDS Steam: http://forums.steampowered.com/forums/s … ?t=2198311In my circle of friends, I'm the only one buying my games even if it looks strange. I did it many times especially when we have kind of OilRush or Humble Indie Bundle.

Mountainjew wrote:

No. They actually seem to be one of the most moral companies out there.

Moral company? What do you mean?Ho yeah, they sell games with interesting prices, and they include thousands of DRM / protections to avoid second-hand sales for example.This is not my definition of moral.

Sure, Skyrim is steamworks. What's so intrusive about having to create a steam account? Does it violate your rights? Do they treat you like a pirate? (well you are one). Did you not have to create an account to post on this forum? What about a bank account? Do you live outside of modern society completely?

It's a non-intrusive way of stopping piracy and frankly, i'm fine with it. Better than, say EA who give you 5 activations for Crysis. Or having to be connected the entire time you're playing a game.

So what's your definition of moral? Abusing a philosophy in order to steal? That kind? You're the kind of person who gives linux users a shitty image of freeloaders who are unwilling to pay for anything. And judging from the Humble Bundle sales, Linux users are quite the opposite.

Re: Looking forward to having Steam on Linux? Read this.

First, calm down. You seem to have pretty shitty conclusion about me. Stop talking to me like that. Even if I disagree, I have kind of respect for your messages.Did you ever lend a game to a friend? This is exactly what happened in my case. I am pretty sure you did it too so you are kind of pirate.

I already have a Steam account whith many games on it (Orange Box) and Deus Ex. When I tried to activate DX: Human Revolution (box edition), I couldn't because I was offline.Obviously, I couldn't play it.This my right to complain about that (and about system). I payed my game but I can't play it.

I'm not abusing or stealing someone. I gave donations to many organizations like FSF. You should really take care about your rude words.