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I spend quite some time in the 'welcome' part of the forum, saying welcome to TP, it's such a friendly place... blah, blah. It looks like I shall have to change that type of comment. I'm surprised actually that this thread has stayed open, as while it started off with the birding section it has managed (in my opinion) to make the forum look like a most unfriendly and petty place.

Just my opinion on having read through from the start, with no axes to grind and knowing little of the folks on here.

Youve hit the nail on the head there Sara, the problems in this section have been caused by the people in it. A forum is only as good as its members, but sadly some of the members of this section need to take a good, long look at themselves and they way they have behaved over the last few months and consider the damage they have caused to the birding section, themselves and the forum as a whole.

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Views and opinions posted are my own, and not necessarily those of TalkPhotography.co.uk

Crash Taylor said:

I love laughing at you guys! If only you could accomplish 5% of what I have done! Will never happen. What a joke!

Youve hit the nail on the head there Sara, the problems in this section have been caused by the people in it. A forum is only as good as its members, but sadly some of the members of this section need to take a good, long look at themselves and they way they have behaved over the last few months and consider the damage they have caused to the birding section, themselves and the forum as a whole.

we dont want to ban people if we dont have to - we've given out plenty of suspensions and warnings, and there a few who wont be back if they get another, but ultimately we will have to lose some folk who in other sections of the forums have been good and helpful members.

Site Problems? Use the 'Contact Us' feature, all staff get notified and a permanant copy of your message gets put in the staff room for us all to discuss.
Views and opinions posted are my own, and not necessarily those of TalkPhotography.co.uk

Crash Taylor said:

I love laughing at you guys! If only you could accomplish 5% of what I have done! Will never happen. What a joke!

When you come across a thread like this, does that not make the team question whether their way of working is actually benefitting the forum? Clearly the suspensions and warnings that have been given out aren't working, especially if it's the same folks involved each time.

Of course the forum members have to shoulder a large degree of responsibility, but ultimately if people can't play nicely then the team need to consider whether their way of managing the forum is working. I'm not criticizing, just asking.

Tinker, Tailor, Soldier, Spy...

When you come across a thread like this, does that not make the team question whether their way of working is actually benefitting the forum? Clearly the suspensions and warnings that have been given out aren't working, especially if it's the same folks involved each time.
.

to be fair to matt and the rest of the green collective , there's nothing that will work flawlessly - if they went in hard and banned everyone they've previously suspended, and then banned everone who raised hell about those people being banned and basically implemented a FIoFO policy , it still wouldnt solve things because you'd get banned members coming back with dual accounts, and if their IPs were blocked coming back from proxy servers and so forth and the mods would spend the next six months playing whack a troll to the detrment of the whole forum

The only thing that would work would be for everyone ,in the words of bill and ted, to "be excellent to one another, dude" ... but i somehow doubt thats going to happen , as a spotted flycatcher can't change its spots.

New years resolutions
1) Take more photos
2) Post more Photos for crit
3) Look at art with a more open mind
4) Try not to be a bell end

the bill and ted route is what we prefer to employ. we dont remove members unless we really have to do so, but when we do, we generally have a clear out.

Site Problems? Use the 'Contact Us' feature, all staff get notified and a permanant copy of your message gets put in the staff room for us all to discuss.
Views and opinions posted are my own, and not necessarily those of TalkPhotography.co.uk

Crash Taylor said:

I love laughing at you guys! If only you could accomplish 5% of what I have done! Will never happen. What a joke!

Well, the issue now is that the people who were good and constructive with proper critique (and encouragement) are fast disappearing. The place used to be full of knowledgeable and often opinionated birders. Some of them even took good photos too! I used to look forward to the inspiration of shots from the likes of Kaz, and the harsh (but fair) words from Chris Wormwell, but now it's only a very few who are left. There seems to be more people looking for ID's of simple species these days too, which suggests that more people are just pointing a camera at whatever moves, then coming here and posting, instead of using Google to further the education.

Perhaps I'm looking for too much from a bird section of a photography forum. It has served me very well in my quest to improve these past couple of years and for that I'm grateful. However, I find myself logging-in weekly now, instead of daily. I'm also fairly reticent about dispensing critique too these days, unless it's Brian and, like me, all his stuff is crap anyway!

Be brutal with your critique as I want to improve. If it's mediocre - tell me why and I'll be grateful.

I think that the bird section is/was quite "technically demanding" and the "standards" of many were/are quite high. This seems to have evolved but is now almost taken for granted. Maybe that's why some of the comments, especially when made towards newer members, are taken as critical and if made towards the more experience are defended
To many Bird photography is more of a science than an art …. It is a pity that some cannot accept it as a more "rounded" subject as the image is only part of the story if you are at all interested in Birds.
IMHO, on this forum, it's a learning process, you have to try it and decide if it is for you or not, but you do have to be careful what you say and choose you words accurately. It seems quite easy on here to misunderstand what people say or mean, unintentionally or not.

Some people on any forum will always use the anonymous "Report" button that's the way they are and have always been in life, (outside any forum).

After only a few months "on here" that's my experience …… and I did not realise that the Forum in general is frequented by so many "Reporters" …… as that seems to be the main reason they use the forum …. although this is only a feeling as it is impossible to identify as it's anonymous

(not getting at anyone in particular - and I have mentioned this in the past - I have seen some really inconsistent moderation)

Jamie Oliver's best friend.

Some people on any forum will always use the anonymous "Report" button that's the way they are and have always been in life, (outside any forum).

After only a few months "on here" that's my experience …… and I did not realise that the Forum in general is frequented by so many "Reporters" …… as that seems to be the main reason they use the forum …. although this is only a feeling as it is impossible to identify as it's anonymous

Well, the issue now is that the people who were good and constructive with proper critique (and encouragement) are fast disappearing. The place used to be full of knowledgeable and often opinionated birders. Some of them even took good photos too! I used to look forward to the inspiration of shots from the likes of Kaz, and the harsh (but fair) words from Chris Wormwell, but now it's only a very few who are left. There seems to be more people looking for ID's of simple species these days too, which suggests that more people are just pointing a camera at whatever moves, then coming here and posting, instead of using Google to further the education.

Perhaps I'm looking for too much from a bird section of a photography forum. It has served me very well in my quest to improve these past couple of years and for that I'm grateful. However, I find myself logging-in weekly now, instead of daily. I'm also fairly reticent about dispensing critique too these days, unless it's Brian and, like me, all his stuff is crap anyway!

I was around during those times as I used to post far more, but now I miss that. it's a shame really, flickr is the only means of keeping in touch with some of those now. However, I will strive as I'm sure others and yourself will to try to make this place a more pleasant experience.
p.s. I agree, I do not get the 'nice shot' critique ... explain why you think it's good, if you think it's good

Graeme
not everyone has the confidence or the ability to offer constructive critique especially when you are attacked or criticised by other forum members when you try.
I dont post images on TP because I dont offer critique to others and I dont critique images on TP because I find it very difficult to offer constructive critique that is acceptable to the forum members so its catch 22.

so yes I can understand the reason for "nice shot" because they like it and want to tell you that they like it.

Now that is a classic example of why there are some "problems" on the Forum - I pass a general comment as part of my opinion - only part of my posting is focused on and developed far more explicitly that is needed………..
That's how easy it is to "light" someone up and I have always loved Springers ……. by far the best dogs ever

It is then "Liked" by a few and animosity starts to set in

To me the word "Like" is not appropriate - "Thanks" would be a more "English" word - but maybe would not suit all, (in the UK or elsewhere).

Graeme
not everyone has the confidence or the ability to offer constructive critique especially when you are attacked or criticised by other forum members when you try.
I dont post images on TP because I dont offer critique to others and I dont critique images on TP because I find it very difficult to offer constructive critique that is acceptable to the forum members so its catch 22.

so yes I can understand the reason for "nice shot" because they like it and want to tell you that they like it.

But surely even if your cannot or don't want to give negative constructive critique you can still you "like it because......." It's nicely composed, focused, exposed, behaviour captured etc... I mean you must know what it is that you like in order to like it.

Also if your getting attacked for offering critique please report it as that shouldn't be happening, yes your critique can be challenged or reasoned against but not actually attacked...and ignore what some people say about it being grassing or running to teacher, honestly I worry why anyone would think that, if the staff saw such an attack without an RTM they would likely react to it without an RTM but they are but a small number and cannot possibly review every post made on the forum

There are some outstanding, excellent, very good, good, average, below average, poor and terrible images posted on here. …….. we all think our images are reasonable otherwise why would we post. Any Critique is good if that is what is asked for.
IMHO, As far as the Bird Section is concerned ……. it is only a section to post and view images of Birds …….. that's about it, that's how it's developed …… if you use it for that purpose, that's fine …….. if you want to know more about Birds and are interested in the subject, use other forums that are far more information and discussion friendly …….. it is a pity but somehow it has not been possible to combined the two on here……………. my experience since January or February this year.

Jamie Oliver's best friend.

Now that is a classic example of why there are some "problems" on the Forum - I pass a general comment as part of my opinion - only part of my posting is focused on and developed far more explicitly that is needed………..
That's how easy it is to "light" someone up and I have always loved Springers ……. by far the best dogs ever

It is then "Liked" by a few and animosity starts to set in

To me the word "Like" is not appropriate - "Thanks" would be a more "English" word - but maybe would not suit all, (in the UK or elsewhere).

No I do not mind you quoting it at all - I did not say I disagreed or agreed with what you said - all I am pointing out is that if you are too explicit some people, Reporters and also others, will (definitely) take it the wrong way.

Effectively you are implying that some "Reporters" are like moaning 6 year olds ……….. the converse would be to say that some other people are like school yard bullies … just my interpretation of course.

I have some sympathy with what you said, others may not, it is a complexed question that will never be resolved ………… democracy up to a limit and we will all see things in a different way

Jamie Oliver's best friend.

No I do not mind you quoting it at all - I did not say I disagreed or agreed with what you said - all I am pointing out is that if you are too explicit some people, Reporters and also others, will (definitely) take it the wrong way.

Effectively you are implying that some "Reporters" are like moaning 6 year olds ……….. the converse would be to say that some other people are like school yard bullies … just my interpretation of course.

I have some sympathy with what you said, others may not, it is a complexed question that will never be resolved ………… democracy up to a limit and we will all see things in a different way

Oh i was definitely implying some are like 6yr olds and i am sure i am not the only one to think that and also very aware my comment might not be like by others

It's been said countless times, written text can easily be taken totally the wrong way and cause a riot that was never needed, but it's also getting to the point where you can feel that you have to pussyfoot around too many and that shouldn't happen either and that's a shame....

Agreed. However, not everybody is the same and I have to constantly remind myself of this. Whilst I actually want people to be almost contemptuous with me (but remaining constructive), I understand that not everyone shares my (lack of) sensibilities. I want to critique in a manner which might be described as 'banter', as that's what I know in the real world. If someone I've never met asks my opinion on something, then that's exactly what they get. When I'm sitting in a chair outside the changing rooms in M&S waiting for my wife to appear and a lone woman asks if her bum looks big........ I just tell her!! By the same token, if she looks great, I tell her that too. I was off school the day they taught diplomacy.

Be brutal with your critique as I want to improve. If it's mediocre - tell me why and I'll be grateful.

Totally agree - is it worth it ……… I'd rather watch my recording of the recent Eurovision Song Contest

One of my favourite scrips from Andy and Lou is

but not everyone "Likes it" ……… and it was not seen as funny recently (in the context of the "Like" button - but I assumed too must of the reader and Mod - I presumed that they never saw the connection)

I suggest the Like button goes unless it is balanced by "Don't like"

The Mod said my contribution was
**Mod Edit**Completely out of order!
If you have nothing constructive to say then don't say anything!

As a protagonist for the 'Like' button before its inception, I will respectfully disagree!

It gives me the opportunity to give a photographic 'nod' to someone I may not know and for me it allows expression without explanation. It's my way of saying 'well done' without adding to a two-word post count.

I'd give my eye teeth to have a shot with dozens of 'likes' and a couple of proper critiques to help me do better next time. A dozen two word posts are not my goal at all.

However, as already said, we aint all the same......

Be brutal with your critique as I want to improve. If it's mediocre - tell me why and I'll be grateful.

I'd rather see the wild and free section mean totally wild and free to find its own food. I do appreciate the effort which is typically employed in the baited / paid-for shots, but it's just not my 'thing'. I mean no harm to those who do it though.

It's a bit like the Isle of Man TT and Formula 1 Racing. The two have virtually no correlation, but the uninitiated will call them both motor-sport.

Be brutal with your critique as I want to improve. If it's mediocre - tell me why and I'll be grateful.

Jamie Oliver's best friend.

Agreed. However, not everybody is the same and I have to constantly remind myself of this. Whilst I actually want people to be almost contemptuous with me (but remaining constructive), I understand that not everyone shares my (lack of) sensibilities. I want to critique in a manner which might be described as 'banter', as that's what I know in the real world. If someone I've never met asks my opinion on something, then that's exactly what they get. When I'm sitting in a chair outside the changing rooms in M&S waiting for my wife to appear and a lone woman asks if her bum looks big........ I just tell her!! By the same token, if she looks great, I tell her that too. I was off school the day they taught diplomacy.

You're right, all of us have totally different personalities, some are very much victor meldrews and some well, can see banter in anything... ( here and real life).... what people need to remember here is that in real life, yes you might say your bum looks bloody massive, but there could be a cheeky grin or a hint that yes you may be serious but it's not malicious.... at a computer screen nobody can see physical expressions, hence 100000000000 of posts get the hump!!