(25-12-2012 09:21 AM)namiloveyou Wrote: What masses? Religion is bullshit, anyhow. I'm simply citing an anything goes moral system, which is the norm these days. I also think anti-racism is further bullshit.

Well Haters gonna hate, but you seem to be a little confused in your "thinking" if an anything goes morality is just fine because most have it, why is religion bullshit, those of faith greatly outnumber those without. If your gonna be a bigot, at least pick a position with some commonality, of course you don't believe in logic either. I suppose this makes your contradictory points understandable.

Anti rascism is bullshit, does that mean you woould like to be denegrated for the colour of you skin, think I should hate you because your "different", or is it that you hate me for the colour of my skin. What is hateful about you has nothing to do with your race, but is a reflection of the bigoted, ugly things you say and believe. But, hateful though they are, your really only a figure to pity.

(25-12-2012 10:06 AM)Humakt Wrote: Well Haters gonna hate, but you seem to be a little confused in your "thinking" if an anything goes morality is just fine because most have it, why is religion bullshit, those of faith greatly outnumber those without. If your gonna be a bigot, at least pick a position with some commonality, of course you don't believe in logic either. I suppose this makes your contradictory points understandable.

Anti rascism is bullshit, does that mean you woould like to be denegrated for the colour of you skin, think I should hate you because your "different", or is it that you hate me for the colour of my skin. What is hateful about you has nothing to do with your race, but is a reflection of the bigoted, ugly things you say and believe. But, hateful though they are, your really only a figure to pity.

hmm... so say most here, who hold nihilist beliefs.

So I dislike some groups. Yay.. holding an opinion is evil.

Thats not what I asked you now is it? What I asked you is to name some groups you liked.

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Racism isn't really linked to nationality, it's about ethnicity (for the most part). In general you aquire a nationality by birth, but can change it later on under certain circumstances, or even hold several nationalities at the same time. On the obvious level racism is based on skin colour, then there are many degrees of differenciation that people use, all the way down to geographic origin (region / country / village / ...). What it basically boils down to is that people are more comfortable around those that they resemble most and mistrust those that are obviously different from themselves. So given that starting point, it takes some intellectual effort to break through the mistrust instinct and to accept that others have equal worth and therefore merit equal consideration.

However, even the most virtuous thinking person will probably still, at some level, have categories of people that they "prefer", or feel more comfortable around. Which would suggest that we are all inherently racist to a degree.

Then, to confuse the discussion a little, if Races don't exist (as seems to be the current consensus in scientific thinking...?) then either racism can't exist, or we're going to have to come up for a different word for it !

(02-01-2013 05:15 AM)Idlecuriosity Wrote: However, even the most virtuous thinking person will probably still, at some level, have categories of people that they "prefer", or feel more comfortable around. Which would suggest that we are all inherently racist to a degree.

I really beg to differ. First off, virtuous is not the word I would have chosen here, but that's not really important.

No, I don't have categories of people I prefer (Unless stupid is a category, then I'm not a huge fan of that category. Even though I do have friends who are not that smart and are still lovely people). I decide if I like someone or not purely based on who they are. As a person. Not which country they were born in, what colour their skin is or some other purely arbitrary principle.

Hell, I've lived in a country where often you can't even tell what "race" someone is. And you know what? I loved it. I loved the fact that I couldn't care less about people's skin and that there was one less (made up) reason for us to dislike each other and divide ourselves into groups.

So no, we are not all inherently racist. We do, however seem unwilling to let go of the tribal, us-or-them instinct. And that's nothing to be proud of.

(02-01-2013 05:29 AM)Vera Wrote: No, I don't have categories of people I prefer ... I decide if I like someone or not purely based on who they are. As a person. Not which country they were born in, what colour their skin is or some other purely arbitrary principle.

As do I.
However, when refering to general groups of strangers, are you really sure that there's no sub-conscious preference mechanism ?

The thing is, any attitudes I might or might not have about any of those, would not be racially motivated. I might feel more at ease among Brazilians, for example, but that's because I speak the language. And as a culture they are more open than, say, Swedes (whom I also enjoyed living with). I may be less at ease among a group of, to use your example, Pakistanis, esp. Pakistani men, but that would depend entirely on how religious they are.

What I was trying to say is that I, myself, form opinions of individuals, not groups. And when I do, the group someone comes from matters as much as their eye colour, for example.

Of course, all groups tend to have common traits, but that's not due to race (not saying that you are claiming it is, just clarifying), but to how they were brought up and in what environment. So while Italians, for example, as a rule, may tend to be more open than, say, Swedes, it doesn't apply to all Italians and all Swedes, nor would it be a reason for me to like one better than the other. As I said, I may be less at ease in certain groups, but those are mostly the ones whose upbringing has made them more dangerous (like, fundamentalists, etc.), but I would feel just as ill at ease, were I among a group of criminals, for example.

To sum up, no matter what people this hypothetical group is made of, as long as they are not hostile, I would be equally at ease in all of them (and I've lived among people from all over the world and those times have been among the best in my life ever, so this is not just idle talk here)

(02-01-2013 09:38 AM)Vera Wrote: The thing is, any attitudes I might or might not have about any of those, would not be racially motivated. I might feel more at ease among Brazilians, for example, but that's because I speak the language. And as a culture they are more open than, say, Swedes (whom I also enjoyed living with). I may be less at ease among a group of, to use your example, Pakistanis, esp. Pakistani men, but that would depend entirely on how religious they are.

What I was trying to say is that I, myself, form opinions of individuals, not groups. And when I do, the group someone comes from matters as much as their eye colour, for example.

Of course, all groups tend to have common traits, but that's not due to race (not saying that you are claiming it is, just clarifying), but to how they were brought up and in what environment. So while Italians, for example, as a rule, may tend to be more open than, say, Swedes, it doesn't apply to all Italians and all Swedes, nor would it be a reason for me to like one better than the other. As I said, I may be less at ease in certain groups, but those are mostly the ones whose upbringing has made them more dangerous (like, fundamentalists, etc.), but I would feel just as ill at ease, were I among a group of criminals, for example.

To sum up, no matter what people this hypothetical group is made of, as long as they are not hostile, I would be equally at ease in all of them (and I've lived among people from all over the world and those times have been among the best in my life ever, so this is not just idle talk here)

I pretty much agree with you in fact. Your experience of living in different cutures seems to have helped / influenced / enabled you to more easily make the intellectual effort to think beyond the instictive fear of other groups. That's also what I understood from Leela's OP and what I have myself experienced. Where it gets complicated is that it's impossible to know how a person or group is going to behave before you get to know them, so we're left with the reflex of expecting them to exhibit common behavioural traits associated with that group, which brings us back to instictive (defensive ?) racism. If a person can't or won't make the effort to think beyond their initial sub-conscious reaction then they will never learn to understand others.