Re: I guess we should all be/get ready for the Ray Lewis murder case stories for the next 2 weeks...

Quote:

Originally Posted by bpmurr

Yeah I don't understand why people think just because the Government charges you with something you're guilty. You hear countless stories of people who did nothing wrong being convicted and those who did wrong going free. People need to look at the actual details but in today's short attention span society nobody wants to take the time to learn the facts. It's pretty sad.

Yeah. Whenever you have time, it's worth reading through the FBI's annual Uniform Crime Report (UCR). The numbers the FBI reports for a lot of things (for instance, the actual murder clearance rate) is pretty interesting data.

01-24-2013, 12:36 PM

Hammerhead

Re: I guess we should all be/get ready for the Ray Lewis murder case stories for the next 2 weeks...

Quote:

Originally Posted by bpmurr

Yeah I don't understand why people think just because the Government charges you with something you're guilty. You hear countless stories of people who did nothing wrong being convicted and those who did wrong going free. People need to look at the actual details but in today's short attention span society nobody wants to take the time to learn the facts. It's pretty sad.

The government arrives at these cases with suspicious minds. At least on the federal side, when agents get an investigation, they immediately get to work ferreting out who broke which law and how. Everything is seen through the prism of the investigation target or defendant being guilty, a scumbag, etc. It also doesn't help that agents get rewarded for the number of cases that they bring and get indictments on.

The agent's investigation is then fed to the line prosecutors. Line prosecutors work in a culture of "putting the bad guys away." Oftentimes, the office is structured to get the most indictments and then convictions. Line prosecutors have it in their power to authorize arrests in certain offices -- to decline an arrest, however, they need permission. They are also judged on the number of cases and indictments that they are handling.

In the federal system, the DOJ has pushed charging the most serious crime possible in every indictment since the beginning of this century. Very little discretion is left to prosecutors.

If a prosecutor wants to do the right thing (and not just the strictest thing possible), s/he has to be savvy and know the system. More often than not, it takes more work to dismiss a case than it does to proceed to trial. (I know because I had to move heaven and earth within my own office to cut defendants breaks that I thought they should get -- either because they made a simple mistake that didn't deserve years of jail time or because the evidence collected against them was collected in less than honorable ways.)

The only thing standing between the government running wild over society is the adversarial jury system. Take away the adversarial nature of the system and you get government by fiat.

Having been a prosecutor on the federal level, I can tell you that most prosecutors strive to do the right thing. But the system is designed towards certain outcomes not so much "the right thing." And I can very easily paint a picture for you of how innocent people end up being convicted for crimes that they did not commit.

The DA in Atlanta was furious that Ray didn't cooperate with them from the beginning. Everything Ray did from that point was seen through the lens of suspicion. It was only when they got to trial that their sand castles of evidence fell apart and they had to strike a deal with Ed Garland to at least get something out of Ray before their whole case fell apart.

Until the system gets to be based more on good judgment and fair process instead of outcomes, false convictions will continue to be a fact of life. Just because the government says it does not make it true. The government is often very wrong.

01-24-2013, 12:37 PM

alienrace

Re: I guess we should all be/get ready for the Ray Lewis murder case stories for the next 2 weeks...

The thing is, Ray was never even accused of actually stabbing someone. The reason he was charged with murder is because Georgia had this obscure law where if you were in a melee that involved someone's death, and you threw a punch, then you could be charged with murder.

Remember, the entire basis of their case was the limo driver testifying that he saw Ray raise his arm as if to throw a punch. This was later thrown out, as the driver never saw Ray actually "throw" a punch. By all accounts, Ray's only involvement was trying to break the fight up and get people back into the limo. The prosecuter, an inept, overly ambitious and overzealous moron, so completely overreached on it that it blew up in his face.

It also became very obvious that Jacinth and Baker were the aggressors, and that Sweeting and the other guy who's name escapes me at the moment were acting in self defense. That, and the total lack of any real evidence to the contrary is why nobody was convicted for murder.

Yet, fans from other teams who hate Ray, call him a murderer, still persist to this day. It just shows the complete ugliness and idiocy of some sports fans today.

The Roethlisberger cases really bear no comparison. There was a load of evidence and witnesses, not to mention multiple cases, and a pattern/reputation for being in those situations and acting boorishly/drunkenly. While it's quite obvious Ray didn't murder anyone, the jury is still out on whether Ben actually raped a girl(s).

01-24-2013, 12:41 PM

Raveninwoodlawn

Re: I guess we should all be/get ready for the Ray Lewis murder case stories for the next 2 weeks...

Quote:

Originally Posted by bacchys

What also came out during the trial was the victims were the aggressors in the whole affair. The knives were brandished after one of Lewis's codefendants was bashed on the head by a bottle and another member of the victims' party announced he was getting his gun.

The gun-getter was given immunity for his testimony by the prosecution despite admitting to firing a pistol down a crowded city street after Lewis's limo.

I don't have a problem with people discussing the case. I have a problem when they discuss it inaccurately, which seems invariably to be the case. The prosecutors dropped the murder charges against Lewis because the evidence didn't support those charges. The jury acquitted his codefendants because the evidence didn't support that murder had taken place that night.

I don't think anybody could have said it better.

01-24-2013, 12:43 PM

esmd

Re: I guess we should all be/get ready for the Ray Lewis murder case stories for the next 2 weeks...

Quote:

Originally Posted by lovefootball

Except he must not have read my whole post. Yea, a question mark may may have been missing. Ray was never convicted of murder. Ray did learn and has been a contibutor on the field and off the field.. I am a fan of football and Ray Lewis. Not a fan of people who cannot understand a post that was defending Ray Lewis. Read the whole post next time.

No need to get defensive. In fairness to everyone, your post was not worded well and was definitely unclear as to what you were trying to say.

01-24-2013, 01:00 PM

arnie_uk

Re: I guess we should all be/get ready for the Ray Lewis murder case stories for the next 2 weeks...

Quote:

Originally Posted by lovefootball

Except he must not have read my whole post. Yea, a question mark may may have been missing. Ray was never convicted of murder. Ray did learn and has been a contibutor on the field and off the field.. I am a fan of football and Ray Lewis. Not a fan of people who cannot understand a post that was defending Ray Lewis. Read the whole post next time.

How about not starting your post with ray Lewis murdered someone next then?

01-24-2013, 02:35 PM

Tommy_Carcetti

Re: I guess we should all be/get ready for the Ray Lewis murder case stories for the next 2 weeks...

I think the most telling thing is that ever since the incident, Ray has been nothing short of a model citizen. Not a single dust-up since.

Collossal eff-ups will find a way to get in trouble again. You see it with other football players as well as with other people in general.

That's not been the case with Ray, which only confirms to me that his involvement didn't stretch beyond covering up for some bad-seed friends. The man let loyalty get in the way of common sense, he paid a reasonable price, and he moved on and learned from the experience and bettered himself.

Case closed. (Literally).

01-24-2013, 04:36 PM

Strange Bru

Re: I guess we should all be/get ready for the Ray Lewis murder case stories for the next 2 weeks...

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tommy_Carcetti

I think the most telling thing is that ever since the incident, Ray has been nothing short of a model citizen. Not a single dust-up since.

Collossal eff-ups will find a way to get in trouble again. You see it with other football players as well as with other people in general.

That's not been the case with Ray, which only confirms to me that his involvement didn't stretch beyond covering up for some bad-seed friends. The man let loyalty get in the way of common sense, he paid a reasonable price, and he moved on and learned from the experience and bettered himself.

Case closed. (Literally).

:word

Big Ben couldn't go consecutive off seasons without raping a woman before he got married, but only because his case never saw the light of day he is "innocent."
Ray Lewis goes to court (for keeping it real with the hoods he grew up with), and clears his name in a court of law, but he is "guilty."
I don't get it, no one mentions anything else except that incidence when trying to prove that the Ravens are "thugs," but what has really happened since? Jamal Lewis goes to jail for some college transgression, Ravens give Donte Stallworth the benefit of a doubt after a tragic accident (he didn't back down or hide from the incident either he faced it like a man), somebody who no longer plays for the Ravens got caught with some pot, T-Sizzle surrenders some weapons after allegations of abuse this year (nothing more public than that), a couple of DUI's here and there. Where are all of the thugs I keep hearing about?

01-24-2013, 10:18 PM

ManfredHanover

Re: I guess we should all be/get ready for the Ray Lewis murder case stories for the next 2 weeks...

I agree. After the Ravens won the game I had all these Pittsburgh people start the hole murderer thing.

01-24-2013, 10:49 PM

CoverD

Re: I guess we should all be/get ready for the Ray Lewis murder case stories for the next 2 weeks...

Haters should also know that the guys who were stabbed were far from innocent. They brought their criminal records with them on their move from Akron OH to Atlanta, and started the violence by hitting a member of Ray's party over the head with a champagne bottle (that's info that is key to the self defense verdict).

A bad scene all around; I'm sure their families loved them and I personally don't think they deserved to die for their actions. But if street toughs hit some guy in a crowd of guys who are the size of NFL players over the head, you'd think they wouldn't be surprised by the consequences. Just sayin'

01-25-2013, 08:11 PM

JAB1985

Re: 5 Myths About Ray Lewis' Murder Trial

Good little summary of the basic misconceptions. Ignorance is only tolerated when knowledge isnt available. Anybody that says something about ray that has internet access should be sent this immediately.

01-25-2013, 08:18 PM

RavensDomination

Re: 5 Myths About Ray Lewis' Murder Trial

"He flipped on his buddies to avoid scrutiny."

They charged him with murder knowing damn right well he didn't stab anyone, but that it would cause him to plea out and testify against his "friends." There aren't too many people in his situation who wouldn't have done the same exact thing.

01-25-2013, 08:28 PM

Beau Petard

Re: 5 Myths About Ray Lewis' Murder Trial

The pathetic thing about this is, there are still people who could hear or read that item, and STILL would continue to believe, say, post, etc., that Lewis murdered two guys, that he did this or that, etc. etc. If you don't believe that, just watch how many people post online to those types of articles, and the stupid, silly shit that they say even after being presented with unadulterated, documented facts.

As a matter of fact, just read through some of the threads on this forum to see how much attention some folks pay to either posted facts, or just plain reading through a thread before they post something completely in contrast to reality.

Of course, I never make mistakes or fail to read every post in a thread, or misinterpret anyone else's posts, or get any of my "facts" wrong, or....

01-25-2013, 08:39 PM

Ravenswintitle

Went to dinner tonight and overheard a guy saying that Ray isa murderer. Haters are gonna hate, it's just how it is

01-25-2013, 08:52 PM

RavenusMaximus

Re: 5 Myths About Ray Lewis' Murder Trial

I remember watching that trial, back went CourtTV used to show high profile trials in their entirety. In fact, I watched many trials from large amounts of the OJ Simpson trial, Ray Carruth's and many other who were not athletes.

It was 100% clear to me and if I were on the jury, I would have voted the same way. While Oakley and Sweeting were not angels in any way, it was clearly a case of self defense, which is exactly why nobody was convicted of murder. If Baker and Lollar, (the 2 guys who died), would have lived, they probably would have been charged with aggravated assault.

01-25-2013, 08:53 PM

Phil11

Re: 5 Myths About Ray Lewis' Murder Trial

The recurring "murderer" thing is so old and tiring. Ray has been a positive influence and, dare i say it, a role model for people in baltimore, florida and elsewhere. I know his NFL peers look up to him. Wish the haters would shut up.

01-25-2013, 08:56 PM

diearavenfan

Re: 5 Myths About Ray Lewis' Murder Trial

I have shut out the national media until the beginning
of the Super Bowl game and will only respond to positive
things about the Baltimore Ravens. The national media
will not rob me of my jubilation.