This thread is born from the idea I've perceived from some forum members that STS entities will only communicate lies and deceit. I feel Ra's words suggest more depth within STS communication.

Quote:12.13 Questioner: You mentioned that the Orion crusaders, when they get through the net, give both technical and non-technical information. I think I know what you mean by technical information, but what type of non-technical information do they give? And am I right in assuming that this is done by telepathic contact?
Ra: I am Ra. This is correct. Through telepathy the philosophy of the Law of One with the distortion of service to self is promulgated. In advanced groups there are rituals and exercises given and these have been written down just as the service-to-others oriented entities have written down the promulgated philosophy of their teachers. The philosophy concerns the service of manipulating others that they may experience service towards the other self, thus through this experience becoming able to appreciate service to self. These entities would become oriented towards service to self and in turn manipulate yet others so that they in turn might experience the service towards the other self.

Firstly, I'd like to pose the question of how any of this technical information can be useful or legitimate if it is not honestly presented in an understandable manner?

Quote:12.14 Questioner: Would this be the origin of what we call black magic?
Ra: I am Ra. This is correct in one sense, incorrect in another. The Orion group has aided the so-called negatively oriented among your mind/body/spirit complexes. These same entities would be concerning themselves with service to self in any case and there are many upon your so-called inner planes which are negatively oriented and thus available as inner teachers or guides and so-called possessors of certain souls who seek this distortion of service to self.

Why would any STS entity even seek out teachers or guides if these STS teachers and guides only lie?

Quote:12.15 Questioner: Is it possible for an entity here on Earth to be so confused as to call both the Confederation and the Orion group in an alternating way, first one, then the other, and then back to the first again?
Ra: I am Ra. It is entirely possible for the untuned channel, as you call that service, to receive both positive and negative communications. If the entity at the base of its confusion is oriented toward service to others, the entity will begin to receive messages of doom. If the entity at the base of the complex of beingness is oriented towards service to self, the crusaders, who in this case, do not find it necessary to lie, will simply begin to give the philosophy they are here to give. Many of your so-called contacts among your people have been confused and self-destructive because the channels were oriented towards service to others but, in the desire for proof, were open to the lying information of the crusaders who then were able to neutralize the effectiveness of the channel.

Here Ra points out a specific example of when a STS entity will lie and when it will not. A STS entity will lie to an untuned STO channel (in an effort to neutralize the message), but does "not find it necessary to lie" to an STS channel.

This does not surprise me. If one has a goal in sight which involves manipulating other people, then why would you only employ one or two strategies to succeed? For each opportunity and circumstance, there are most likely an infinite number of ways that one can attempt to move forward in the realization of their goals.

Sometimes there is a greater advantage in telling the truth. I think they lie when it benefits them to lie, but the lying isn't pathological. Personally, I think it's silly to picture STS as this conglomeration of negative traits clumped together with no glue in-between. People seem to think they're just raving, vicious, lying, hateful monsters whose desires don't extend beyond raping, murdering and dragging us all into negative space.

I'd imagine they have personalities and preferences just like us, just a different goal to work toward. They are our brothers and sisters, not Disney villians who give us something to "boo" at.

I don't recall anyone saying that STS entities only lie, just that they do lie often. I think when an Orion channel doesn't receive any direct benefit from the information they give they'll probably give whatever information would cause maximum chaos on the planet and among STS entities, whether that means telling the truth so an entity can be strong enough to compete with some other entity, or whether it means lying so some entity becomes confused and uses it as negative catalyst, or any mix of truth and lies and selective uses of either.

(04-29-2011, 06:33 PM)turtledude23 Wrote: I don't recall anyone saying that STS entities only lie, just that they do lie often.

Very astute point!

(04-29-2011, 06:33 PM)turtledude23 Wrote: I think when an Orion channel doesn't receive any direct benefit from the information they give they'll probably give whatever information would cause maximum chaos on the planet and among STS entities, whether that means telling the truth so an entity can be strong enough to compete with some other entity, or whether it means lying so some entity becomes confused and uses it as negative catalyst, or any mix of truth and lies and selective uses of either.

Exactly! The point isn't that they only lie, but that they lie a lot, so can't be trusted. How could we trust someone who has a track record of lying? How would we know if they're telling the truth or not?

The characteristic of STS is that they are only concerned with self. The methods of lying or truth telling are employed to serve their own interests, whatever they may be. The only way to know their nature is to be able to see their energy chakras. Since we cannot do that we seek within to attempt to recognize our own nature. Even then, we can not be sure.

(04-29-2011, 05:11 PM)abridgetoofar Wrote: This thread is born from the idea I've perceived from some forum members that STS entities will only communicate lies and deceit.

that is probably meant for me.

i have not said that sts entities ONLY communicate lies and deceit.

i have said that, sts entities seek to serve only the self, at all costs - even at the cost of violating free will, if they will be able to subdue. (remember mass landing talk in ra material).

thus, sts entities can even violate the most fundamental rule of this creation if they calculate that they can pull it off.

that is as high as it gets. there is no higher rule known that, they can violate. the law of free will is the highest.

a source that can violate (apparently) the most fundamental law of this creation would not hesitate in lying to anyone, at any point, at any place. for, there are no rules in regard to honesty, until early 6th density starts to require some measure of honesty.

if we formulate simply - if it will result in conquest in eventual end, the sts entity would not hesitate from lying to anyone.

as for 'teachers', remember that, sts entities seek to learn sts path. and any kind of sts act, would be teaching. includes lying to serve self.

.............

it is appalling that people can attribute any modicum of honesty to service to self path. realizing that 'serving self by enslaving others' would include lying to reach that end, should not be so elusive ?

"Why does an STS entity transmit truth to an STS channel? Where is the service to self within this act? Does a self-serving action innately carry dishonesty and manipulation?"

the bottom line is that the STS results from their actions are serving their own interests. Therefore, the answer, as presumed, is probably that STS channels do not lie with every word.

"to learn is to teach UNLESS you are not teaching what you are learning"

If one is learning STS from a teacher, and by learning is not acting accordingly STS so as to teach what they are learning then it does the original teacher no good. In other words, if you receive teaching from STS and turn around and act STO, then nothing significant has transpired. (this also works from sto to sts). This is why it is all important to take what resonates and to seek your true nature within. To learn is to teach. (I have been meditating on this quote of Ra's all day)

I presume that an STSer wins or gains points by accumulating followers, and, overall, deception probably works best for that. Nevertheless, to convince a recruit that this is the best way to fulfillment or whatever, the STSer would need to deliver a consistent message of excitement about knowledge, power and/or whatever.

Doing that might require a fair bit of truth-telling, albeit maybe slick, to rope in the newbie and remove any nagging doubt. The last thing the STS recruiter would want to hear is, "Now I know you're a g*ddamn liar!"

Therefore, the best warning to give out to the innocent is, don't jump into anything until you've really, really verified the source. The most sincere and truthy-sounding teacher might be setting you up.

(04-29-2011, 06:48 PM)Bring4th_Monica Wrote: Exactly! The point isn't that they only lie, but that they lie a lot, so can't be trusted. How could we trust someone who has a track record of lying? How would we know if they're telling the truth or not?

But certainly another STS entity would know this, right? Why would they trust each other? Why would an STS group channel an STS entity when we can't know if they're telling the truth or not? It would seem to make STS channeling pointless to the eyes of the channeler, yet it still happens. And I know that STSers aren't naive nor stupid, and still there is trust.

On top of that, Ra says that they don't lie to STS channels. They provide no exceptions to this statement. It seems to me that these things combined suggests that STS entities CAN be trusted by STS channelers.

(04-29-2011, 07:00 PM)3DMonkey Wrote: The characteristic of STS is that they are only concerned with self. The methods of lying or truth telling are employed to serve their own interests, whatever they may be. The only way to know their nature is to be able to see their energy chakras. Since we cannot do that we seek within to attempt to recognize our own nature. Even then, we can not be sure.

This is where I'm getting confused, because Ra clearly tells us that they don't find it necessary to lie to STS channelers. I can definitely imagine some gain to be had from manipulating any open channel, why only manipulate the STO?

(04-29-2011, 07:07 PM)unity100 Wrote:

(04-29-2011, 05:11 PM)abridgetoofar Wrote: This thread is born from the idea I've perceived from some forum members that STS entities will only communicate lies and deceit.

that is probably meant for me.

Probably, if you're a social memory complex and consider yourself multiple forum members

This topic would have been in reply to you in a derailed thread but you are not the center of that statement by any means.

Quote:i have not said that sts entities ONLY communicate lies and deceit.

i have said that, sts entities seek to serve only the self, at all costs - even at the cost of violating free will, if they will be able to subdue. (remember mass landing talk in Ra material).

thus, sts entities can even violate the most fundamental rule of this creation if they calculate that they can pull it off.

that is as high as it gets. there is no higher rule known that, they can violate. the law of free will is the highest.

a source that can violate (apparently) the most fundamental law of this creation would not hesitate in lying to anyone, at any point, at any place. for, there are no rules in regard to honesty, until early 6th density starts to require some measure of honesty.

What do you have to say about the Ra quote, saying STS channeled beings do not find it necessary to lie to STS channelers? Ra pointed out that lies and manipulation were presented to STO channelers, and specifically stated differently about STS channelers.

Quote:as for 'teachers', remember that, sts entities seek to learn sts path. and any kind of sts act, would be teaching. includes lying to serve self.

So you are saying that the STSers learn from their teachers' lies? I can definitely see that, but what about Ra saying that straight STS philosophy is dispensed? It would not be considered STS philosophy itself if it were a lie...possibly STS lessons, but STS philosophy would be straightforward.

Quote:it is appalling that people can attribute any modicum of honesty to service to self path. realizing that 'serving self by enslaving others' would include lying to reach that end, should not be so elusive ?

The elusive part to me is that, according to Ra, there is honest communication among STS entities. Isn't that attributing a modicum of honesty to STS? There has to be some sort of trust for a channeler to effectively receive STS philosophy, or even further, technical information.

(04-29-2011, 09:08 PM)Azrael Wrote: What makes something a lie? I don't quite understand this, there are only relativities. I understand the nature of lying is in "lack of similarity" between two perspectives when one entity is conscious of this lack and the other is not, however can the truth not be equally enslaving to some souls? A very confusing point...

I think what most people consider a lie in this case would be deliberate dishonesty in the spirit of manipulation. Speaking from your mention of perspective, one entity perceives something and tells another entity something different, predicting the outcome to result in self-benefit.

_____________________________The only frontier that has ever existed is the self.

The benefit of STS being honest with a channeler, that I can see, is that they are more aware of the end result - that the channeler becomes a tool to "sway" teetering 3Ders to STS. Ra says the higher density polarities are in persuasive competition for recruits.

(04-30-2011, 12:34 AM)abridgetoofar Wrote: But certainly another STS entity would know this, right? Why would they trust each other? Why would an STS group channel an STS entity when we can't know if they're telling the truth or not? It would seem to make STS channeling pointless to the eyes of the channeler, yet it still happens. And I know that STSers aren't naive nor stupid, and still there is trust.

That presupposes the STS channeler is aware that s/he is STS.

Many fancy themselves STO.

(04-30-2011, 12:34 AM)abridgetoofar Wrote: On top of that, Ra says that they don't lie to STS channels. They provide no exceptions to this statement. It seems to me that these things combined suggests that STS entities CAN be trusted by STS channelers.

Perhaps, since the info is STS anyway. But that doesn't mean they can be trusted by us.

(04-30-2011, 12:34 AM)abridgetoofar Wrote: This is where I'm getting confused, because Ra clearly tells us that they don't find it necessary to lie to STS channelers. I can definitely imagine some gain to be had from manipulating any open channel, why only manipulate the STO?

Ra didn't say they manipulate only the STO.

(04-30-2011, 12:34 AM)abridgetoofar Wrote: What do you have to say about the Ra quote, saying STS channeled beings do not find it necessary to lie to STS channelers? Ra pointed out that lies and manipulation were presented to STO channelers, and specifically stated differently about STS channelers.

STO channelers would not accept the info if they knew it was STS. Hence, the STS entities lie...they pretend to be STO, so as to gain the trust of the STO channelers.

And thus deceive with their lies.

The deception is that they present themselves as STO, but are actually STS.

Or, they might present themselves as STS who have decided to 'serve' STO's, which alone is so preposterous that the only way to believe it is if one falls prey to their deception.

(04-30-2011, 12:34 AM)abridgetoofar Wrote: So you are saying that the STSers learn from their teachers' lies?

Sure! They learn how to lie!

(04-30-2011, 12:34 AM)abridgetoofar Wrote: I can definitely see that, but what about Ra saying that straight STS philosophy is dispensed? It would not be considered STS philosophy itself if it were a lie...possibly STS lessons, but STS philosophy would be straightforward.

(04-30-2011, 12:34 AM)abridgetoofar Wrote: But certainly another STS entity would know this, right? Why would they trust each other? Why would an STS group channel an STS entity when we can't know if they're telling the truth or not? It would seem to make STS channeling pointless to the eyes of the channeler, yet it still happens. And I know that STSers aren't naive nor stupid, and still there is trust.

the other sts entity wouldnt know that. that all depends on how higher in the spectrum theentities are. the higher in advancement ladder the sts entity is, the better hiding its thoughts, manipulation, control skills are.

Quote:On top of that, Ra says that they don't lie to STS channels. They provide no exceptions to this statement. It seems to me that these things combined suggests that STS entities CAN be trusted by STS channelers.

there is no rule that is introduced that says sts entities tell truth among each other either. so, your conclusion doesnt come to fruition. foremost, there are no exceptions provided to the 'serving to self by any means' either. that also includes lying to anyone.

Quote:What do you have to say about the Ra quote, saying STS channeled beings do not find it necessary to lie to STS channelers? Ra pointed out that lies and manipulation were presented to STO channelers, and specifically stated differently about STS channelers.

what needs to be said about it ?

it says they dont find it NECESSARY to lie. it doesnt say, they DONT lie.

Quote:So you are saying that the STSers learn from their teachers' lies? I can definitely see that, but what about Ra saying that straight STS philosophy is dispensed? It would not be considered STS philosophy itself if it were a lie...possibly STS lessons, but STS philosophy would be straightforward.

if you start out by interpreting 'they dont' from 'they dont FIND it NECESSARY', then all kinds of confusions as such like the above, can arise.

Quote:The elusive part to me is that, according to Ra, there is honest communication among STS entities. Isn't that attributing a modicum of honesty to STS? There has to be some sort of trust for a channeler to effectively receive STS philosophy, or even further, technical information.

again, there is no such thing as 'honest communication' among sts entities. the very fact that you are attributing honesty to a path that is in itself a lie, means you really dont understand that path.

moreover, on top of concluding honesty in the form of 'they dont lie' from 'not finding necessary to lie', you are also concluding with lacking information, forgetting other information from ra material :

the first requirement to be honest starts at early 6th density. advancing in 6th density requires a measure of honesty. sts entities start feeling the need to employ a measure of truth.

that means, before that, there are NO obligations for not lying.

if lie hasnt been a feature of sts path, the honesty requirement in 6th density start wouldnt be a problem for them.

(05-01-2011, 10:44 AM)Gemini Wolf Wrote: I think there are different levels of truth, so always speaking the truth can be very subjective. There are truths that some people can't handle, or aren't ready for.

Hmmm.....yes, I can see that that trend is visible across the LOO too, wherein in many instances, Ra just refused to answer some questions that contained truth too sensitive to handle.

(05-01-2011, 10:44 AM)Gemini Wolf Wrote: I think there are different levels of truth, so always speaking the truth can be very subjective. There are truths that some people can't handle, or aren't ready for.

Very true!

However with wisdom comes the ability to speak the truth in such a way that takes into consideration where the other person is at. We have a perfect example of this in Ra, who always spoke truth to Don, but didn't always provide complete answers. Ra was honest when they couldn't provide an answer for whatever reason. There was no deception.

A way to speak truth to someone who can't handle it is to provide a simplified version; it is still true but without the deeper, more subtle nuances.

If we radiate and remain true to our truth, and the other person can't handle it, then it becomes a catalyst for them.

This is probably why many spiritual teachers spoke in parables; they could convey the concepts without triggering the students' fear reflex by hearing something they weren't ready to accept.

(05-01-2011, 10:52 AM)Bring4th_Monica Wrote: This is probably why many spiritual teachers spoke in parables; they could convey the concepts without triggering the students' fear reflex by hearing something they weren't ready to accept.

Not only to make the information 'safe' for consumption, but to prevent an acceptance without having prior groundwork done. That is the potential infringement. Knowing where the other is 'at', the info is withheld to prevent corruption or leading them astray. Apparently, that's not necessarily a compassionate act, since STS will also do this to prevent karmic binding.

We are all 'logoi'. The more one seeks and accepts, the more responsibility is required due to being placed into a position of guidance.

How is it even possible to know where the other is at? Is it to assume that no other is aware of what I am aware of? Or is it simply to be ever in a position of answering direct questions and never insert one's view otherwise?

(05-01-2011, 01:03 PM)3DMonkey Wrote: How is it even possible to know where the other is at?

Probably because we're 'all things'.

(05-01-2011, 01:03 PM)3DMonkey Wrote: Is it to assume that no other is aware of what I am aware of?

Why would you assume that no other is aware of what you're aware of?

(05-01-2011, 01:03 PM)3DMonkey Wrote: Or is it simply to be ever in a position of answering direct questions and never insert one's view otherwise?

The well considered question always answers itself. Yet the question requires 'will'. Many want answers without having to ask the question. We can't answer (without infringement) what has not been asked because then, as Ra says, you'd be in a position to learn/teach for the student.

(04-30-2011, 12:34 AM)abridgetoofar Wrote: But certainly another STS entity would know this, right? Why would they trust each other? Why would an STS group channel an STS entity when we can't know if they're telling the truth or not? It would seem to make STS channeling pointless to the eyes of the channeler, yet it still happens. And I know that STSers aren't naive nor stupid, and still there is trust.

the other sts entity wouldnt know that. that all depends on how higher in the spectrum theentities are. the higher in advancement ladder the sts entity is, the better hiding its thoughts, manipulation, control skills are.

So you're saying we're all sitting here on some high mountain, realizing STS entities lie, when STS entities don't realize this themselves? I don't accept that notion. For one to polarize STS they would have to be very smart and cunning, and I am sure they would realize that opening to a higher STS entity would make them susceptible to lies. In fact, the naivety you're applying to STS entities is much more of an attribute of STO entities, which is why Ra points out that STS entities lie to STO entities and dispense philosophy to STS entities.

Quote:

Quote:What do you have to say about the Ra quote, saying STS channeled beings do not find it necessary to lie to STS channelers? Ra pointed out that lies and manipulation were presented to STO channelers, and specifically stated differently about STS channelers.

what needs to be said about it ?

it says they dont find it NECESSARY to lie. it doesnt say, they DONT lie.

Read again:

Quote:If the entity at the base of the complex of beingness is oriented towards service to self, the crusaders, who in this case, do not find it necessary to lie, will simply begin to give the philosophy they are here to give.

Will SIMPLY begin to give the philosophy THEY ARE HERE TO GIVE. Not only does Ra say they don't find it necessary to lie (and if they don't find it necessary, why would they?), but they go on to tell us what they do INSTEAD of lie, which is, again, "simply begin to give the philosophy they are here to give."

They are here to give the philosophy, which in my eyes is providing a service to other STS entities. You may continue to argue about this specific comment if you wish, but it is very plain to me what Ra is saying. They help STS entities become more STS, and that is providing a service in my eyes, which is where the heart of this topic is.

Quote:

Quote:So you are saying that the STSers learn from their teachers' lies? I can definitely see that, but what about Ra saying that straight STS philosophy is dispensed? It would not be considered STS philosophy itself if it were a lie...possibly STS lessons, but STS philosophy would be straightforward.

if you start out by interpreting 'they dont' from 'they dont FIND it NECESSARY', then all kinds of confusions as such like the above, can arise.

Quote:Ra: I am Ra. This is correct. Through telepathy the philosophy of the Law of One with the distortion of service to self is promulgated.

The definition of promulgated would make this statement mean that philosophy is dispensed in a clearly stated manner.

Quote:

Quote:The elusive part to me is that, according to Ra, there is honest communication among STS entities. Isn't that attributing a modicum of honesty to STS? There has to be some sort of trust for a channeler to effectively receive STS philosophy, or even further, technical information.

again, there is no such thing as 'honest communication' among sts entities. the very fact that you are attributing honesty to a path that is in itself a lie, means you really dont understand that path.

In you're eyes, I don't understand it. In my eyes, you are very specifically avoiding Ra information which tells a different story than you are trying to tell, which evades the very point of this topic as well as shows clear misunderstanding on your part. There has been honest communication among STS entities, technical information as well as philosophy. How could this technical information be lies? The Nazis channeled STS entities and got technical information which sent their technology decades ahead of any other country at the time...are rockets a lie? Ra says this very plainly. Is Ra lying? Maybe they're STS playing a trick on us.

Quote:moreover, on top of concluding honesty in the form of 'they dont lie' from 'not finding necessary to lie', you are also concluding with lacking information, forgetting other information from Ra material :

the first requirement to be honest starts at early 6th density. advancing in 6th density requires a measure of honesty. sts entities start feeling the need to employ a measure of truth.

that means, before that, there are NO obligations for not lying.

Just because honesty is required in early 6D doesn't mean it's the only time honesty is seen. That seems irrelevant to me. It means 6D is when they stop must stop lying, not the only point they start telling the truth. There is a big difference.

Quote:if lie hasnt been a feature of sts path, the honesty requirement in 6th density start wouldnt be a problem for them.

but it is being a problem. that means, there is lie in sts path.

Obviously STS lies, Ra says that specifically about their interaction with STO. That's not what is being discussed here, and that's the point you are clearly missing. Just because they must stop lying and manipulating STO doesn't mean anything about STS intercommunication.

_____________________________The only frontier that has ever existed is the self.