"While many of us are working to ensure that the Occupy movement will have a lasting impact, it’s worthwhile to consider other countries where masses of people succeeded in nonviolently bringing about a high degree of democracy and economic justice. Sweden and Norway, for example, both experienced a major power shift in the 1930s after prolonged nonviolent struggle. They “fired” the top 1 percent of people who set the direction for society and created the basis for something different.

Both countries had a history of horrendous poverty. When the 1 percent was in charge, hundreds of thousands of people emigrated to avoid starvation. Under the leadership of the working class, however, both countries built robust and successful economies that nearly eliminated poverty, expanded free university education, abolished slums, provided excellent health care available to all as a matter of right and created a system of full employment. Unlike the Norwegians, the Swedes didn’t find oil, but that didn’t stop them from building what the latest CIA World Factbook calls “an enviable standard of living.” ( https://www.cia.gov/library/publications/the-world-factbook/ )

Neither country is a utopia, as readers of the crime novels by Stieg Larsson, Kurt Wallender and Jo Nesbro will know. Critical left-wing authors such as these try to push Sweden and Norway to continue on the path toward more fully just societies. However, as an American activist who first encountered Norway as a student in 1959 and learned some of its language and culture, the achievements I found amazed me. I remember, for example, bicycling for hours through a small industrial city, looking in vain for substandard housing. Sometimes resisting the evidence of my eyes, I made up stories that “accounted for” the differences I saw: “small country,” “homogeneous,” “a value consensus.” I finally gave up imposing my frameworks on these countries and learned the real reason: their own histories.

Then I began to learn that the Swedes and Norwegians paid a price for their standards of living through nonviolent struggle. There was a time when Scandinavian workers didn’t expect that the electoral arena could deliver the change they believed in. They realized that, with the 1 percent in charge, electoral “democracy” was stacked against them, so nonviolent direct action was needed to exert the power for change.

In both countries, the troops were called out to defend the 1 percent; people died. Award-winning Swedish filmmaker Bo Widerberg told the Swedish story vividly in Ådalen 31, which depicts the strikers killed in 1931 and the sparking of a nationwide general strike. {You can read more about this case in an entry by Max Rennebohm in the Global Nonviolent Action Database : http://nvdatabase.swarthmore.edu/content/norwegians-overthrow-capitalist-rule-1931-35 }

The Norwegians had a harder time organizing a cohesive people’s movement because Norway’s small population—about three million—was spread out over a territory the size of Britain. People were divided by mountains and fjords, and they spoke regional dialects in isolated valleys. In the nineteenth century, Norway was ruled by Denmark and then by Sweden; in the context of Europe Norwegians were the “country rubes,” of little consequence. Not until 1905 did Norway finally become independent.

When workers formed unions in the early 1900s, they generally turned to Marxism, organizing for revolution as well as immediate gains. They were overjoyed by the overthrow of the czar in Russia, and the Norwegian Labor Party joined the Communist International organized by Lenin. Labor didn’t stay long, however. One way in which most Norwegians parted ways with Leninist strategy was on the role of violence: Norwegians wanted to win their revolution through collective nonviolent struggle, along with establishing co-ops and using the electoral arena.

In the 1920s strikes increased in intensity. The town of Hammerfest formed a commune in 1921, led by workers councils; the army intervened to crush it. The workers’ response verged toward a national general strike. The employers, backed by the state, beat back that strike, but workers erupted again in the ironworkers’ strike of 1923–24.

The Norwegian 1 percent decided not to rely simply on the army; in 1926 they formed a social movement called the Patriotic League, recruiting mainly from the middle class. By the 1930s, the League included as many as 100,000 people for armed protection of strike breakers—this in a country of only 3 million!

The Labor Party, in the meantime, opened its membership to anyone, whether or not in a unionized workplace. Middle-class Marxists and some reformers joined the party. Many rural farm workers joined the Labor Party, as well as some small landholders. Labor leadership understood that in a protracted struggle, constant outreach and organizing was needed to a nonviolent campaign. In the midst of the growing polarization, Norway’s workers launched another wave of strikes and boycotts in 1928.

The Depression hit bottom in 1931. More people were jobless there than in any other Nordic country. Unlike in the U.S., the Norwegian union movement kept the people thrown out of work as members, even though they couldn’t pay dues. This decision paid off in mass mobilizations. When the employers’ federation locked employees out of the factories to try to force a reduction of wages, the workers fought back with massive demonstrations.

Many people then found that their mortgages were in jeopardy. (Sound familiar?) The Depression continued, and farmers were unable to keep up payment on their debts. As turbulence hit the rural sector, crowds gathered nonviolently to prevent the eviction of families from their farms. The Agrarian Party, which included larger farmers and had previously been allied with the Conservative Party, began to distance itself from the 1 percent; some could see that the ability of the few to rule the many was in doubt.

By 1935, Norway was on the brink. The Conservative-led government was losing legitimacy daily; the 1 percent became increasingly desperate as militancy grew among workers and farmers. A complete overthrow might be just a couple years away, radical workers thought. However, the misery of the poor became more urgent daily, and the Labor Party felt increasing pressure from its members to alleviate their suffering, which it could do only if it took charge of the government in a compromise agreement with the other side.

This it did. In a compromise that allowed owners to retain the right to own and manage their firms, Labor in 1935 took the reins of government in coalition with the Agrarian Party. They expanded the economy and started public works projects to head toward a policy of full employment that became the keystone of Norwegian economic policy. Labor’s success and the continued militancy of workers enabled steady inroads against the privileges of the 1 percent, to the point that majority ownership of all large firms was taken by the public interest. (There is an entry on this case as well at the Global Nonviolent Action Database.)

The 1 percent thereby lost its historic power to dominate the economy and society. Not until three decades later could the Conservatives return to a governing coalition, having by then accepted the new rules of the game, including a high degree of public ownership of the means of production, extremely progressive taxation, strong business regulation for the public good and the virtual abolition of poverty. When Conservatives eventually tried a fling with neoliberal policies, the economy generated a bubble and headed for disaster. (Sound familiar?)

Labor stepped in, seized the three largest banks, fired the top management, left the stockholders without a dime and refused to bail out any of the smaller banks. The well-purged Norwegian financial sector was not one of those countries that lurched into crisis in 2008; carefully regulated and much of it publicly owned, the sector was solid.

Although Norwegians may not tell you about this the first time you meet them, the fact remains that their society’s high level of freedom and broadly-shared prosperity began when workers and farmers, along with middle class allies, waged a nonviolent struggle that empowered the people to govern for the common good."

''Mikhail Bakunin predicted the catastrophic breakdown of the capitalist order, something we are likely to witness in our lifetimes, and new autonomous worker federations rising up out of the chaos. Pyotr Kropotkin, like Proudhon, believed in an evolutionary process that would hammer out the new society. Emma Goldman, along with Kropotkin, came to be very wary of both the efficacy of violence and the revolutionary potential of the masses. “The mass,” Goldman wrote bitterly toward the end of her life in echoing Marx, “clings to its masters, loves the whip, and is the first to cry Crucify!”

''The revolutionists of history counted on a mobilized base of enlightened industrial workers. The building blocks of revolt, they believed, relied on the tool of the general strike, the ability of workers to cripple the mechanisms of production. Strikes could be sustained with the support of political parties, strike funds and union halls. Workers without these support mechanisms had to replicate the infrastructure of parties and unions if they wanted to put prolonged pressure on the bosses and the state. But now, with the decimation of the U.S. manufacturing base, along with the dismantling of our unions and opposition parties, we will have to search for different instruments of rebellion.

''We must develop a revolutionary theory that is not reliant on the industrial or agrarian muscle of workers. Most manufacturing jobs have disappeared, and, of those that remain, few are unionized. Our family farms have been destroyed by agro-businesses. Monsanto and its Faustian counterparts on Wall Street rule. They are steadily poisoning our lives and rendering us powerless. The corporate leviathan, which is global, is freed from the constraints of a single nation-state or government. Corporations are beyond regulation or control. Politicians are too anemic, or more often too corrupt, to stand in the way of the accelerating corporate destruction.

''Occupy articulated the concerns of the majority of citizens. Most of the citizenry detests Wall Street and big banks. It does not want more wars. It needs jobs. It is disgusted with the subservience of elected officials to corporate power. It wants universal health care. It worries that if the fossil fuel industry is not stopped, there will be no future for our children. And the state is using all its power to stymie any movement that expresses these concerns.''

I excerpt the above in reply and on a lietmotif of Chris Hedges, from the excellent :

The link to the documentary is 'HD' and 144m but is arguably THE Definitive doc. on the matter and I append it here with Hedges' most recent article on your prompt - and on my all time favourite post as it fits so well here. The doc. methodically goes on to prove the psychopathic, anti-human nature of modern Corporations which gained so much from 'War' and how they usurped The 14th Amendment then and of course now, also have The SCOTUS' treacherous 'Citizens United' decision and I recommend both links.

Thanx for the bump & on the matter of 'epa1nter' - yep, came across him more than once in the manic chat of LiveStream on #S17 and on occasions before that too. He lives and breaths and continues The 99% Fight elsewhere and in other forms. We all do what we can do, where, if and how we can - I hope !

Onwards and Upwards & Solidarity 4 a bw 4 all, wherever we may be on this Good Earth ..~*~..

''Occupy articulated the concerns of the majority of citizens. Most of the citizenry detests Wall Street and big banks. It does not want more wars. It needs jobs. It is disgusted with the subservience of elected officials to corporate power. It wants universal health care. It worries that if the fossil fuel industry is not stopped, there will be no future for our children. And the state is using all its power to stymie any movement that expresses these concerns."

''Former President Jimmy Carter said Monday that the income gap in the United States has increased to the point where members of the middle class resemble the Americans who lived in poverty when he occupied the White House.''

'Usurious Compound Interest' is the key to our enslavement and root of the problem. It is an explicitly parasitic mechanism of 'Capital and Wealth Extraction and Accumulation' and underpins The 'Hoover Up Crapitalism' which we now labour under and chaff against !!

The US-FED & 'Bank England' et al should be an arms of The Democratic Nation and NOT 'The Cartel of Private Banking Corporations' which is clearly the case now !!!

''Capitalism is now a cult, and Jamie Dimon is the self-appointed leader of the 'cult of capitalism'!” & The Financialisation of all human endeavours is Killing The Planet and destroying our basic humanity too !!!

''There's a hole in my bucket, dear Liza, dear Liza - a hole ; Well fix it dear Henry, dear Henry, well fix it'' !! Hope you know this kids' circular song otherwise you'll be left scratching your head ;-) Solidarity and IF you haven't seen it I Strongly Recommend the You-Tube link above.

What alternative reality website were you on? I never saw Trevor being attacked over his anti war stance. That's one thing I think most all of us here agree on, all of us except Zendog who wants to arm AQ and kill Assad.

The only person here that gave Trevor a hard time was VQ and the Dem shills, because Trevor called out both sides over their war-mongering. That's a fact.

And nobody chased him away either. This recent bullshit about people being chased away is just that. Bullshit. Most people left here for the simple reason that nothing gets accomplished here, it's mainly just talking in circles.

Trevor is young still, and has a pretty good life. THAT'S why he isn't here right now, he's doing what all twenty-somethings should be doing: living life, not wasting it on an internet forum. Besides, he's taken an extended leave from here before. He'll probably be back.

Where's your proof anyone chased Trevor away? You, my friend are full of shit, and you need to stop following shoozes bullshit. He's the one that's been claiming people have been chased away and apparently you're following in lockstep. He's full of shit, no one chased VQ away. That's a fact. Hell, shooz was even bitching that WE chased YOU away right before you returned and he knew that was a complete lie.

So, I ask again, where's your proof Trevor was chased away? Remember, there was a time when Trevor disappeared for many months, then came back. So what proof do you have DK? If you have none, then shut the fuck up. I wasn't talking to you.

Trevor told me himself that he was sick of being attacked for his anti-war stance. You - whom I thought at one time was a friend ( idiot I ) R blind deaf and dumb - as well as a seeming patsy for the shills who attack this forum - and that is giving you the benefit of the doubt. As I didn't think that you could be such an idiot. Well Live and Learn Live and Learn.

So U and GNM R best Bud's now - Hey? Or R U just trying 2 throw mud at him? What U do is try 2 spread disinformation and try 2 undermine good contributors 2 the 4um. SO - and I say this with all " due " respect ( none ) Fuck Off.

The real forum attackers are the ...TwinkleTeam... They are the ones doing damage by censoring and banning good users. Thrasy is simply misunderstood. People use logical fallacies against him instead of proper debate. It's sad really and says more about conspiracy theory type thinking than it does about Thrasy.

If you read the whole discussion in the posting of the comment I linked above, you'll see that some people even accused epa1nter of being Thrasy. That's how ridiculous this site has become. If someone disagrees, he's a right wing troll, he's Thrasy, etc... No real debate with that type of thinking.

I don't know who you are, but by your low score I'll assume you're a major troll around here.

Honesty? You're talking through epa1nter's mouth pretending you know how he felt about this place. Read the comment I posted above. Learn your forum history. epa1nter was one of Thrasy's friends. One of his main supporters. He defended him on many occasions from the lies of the real attackers. If you want honesty, stop putting words into other people's mouths, and stop censoring comments to protect others from the truth. Be a man. Use real debating tactics instead of banning and lies. If epa1nter were here he'd tell you you're absolutely wrong about him. Speak for yourself please.

You revive an old forum post to lie about another poster - epa1nter. You put words into his mouth, words that are the opposite of what he thought and believed in.

I see you trolling this forum every single day. Going around and attacking anyone who disagrees with you by calling them a troll, or Thrasy.

You should try to promote free speech. If you disagree with someone, don't bother engaging them unless you can debate in proper fashion. Why attack other users with names, logical fallacies, made up lies, and so on? Ignore those who bother you, engage those you want to engage but do so like an adult.

Do that and you might get some respect around here. You might even get a few twinkles. It's no one's fault but yours if you lost the community's respect.

You're scared to debate properly because you know Thrasy would tear you apart. That's why you must rely on logical fallacies, name calling, and censoring. You want everyone here to march in lock-step. One big group think. If anyone dares to have original ideas, you ban him.

Nope. I never once deleted one of my comments though some get banned by the dictator moderators who are afraid of free speech. I didn't revive this posting, a cursory examination reveals you did. I'm guessing you revived it simply to lie about epa1nter. You knew he wasn't here to defend himself. It's those types of lame tactics that make you a troll hovering in the negatives.

No, I never deleted any of my comments. Those were other users you thought were me. The problem is, you think everyone who disagrees with you is Thrasy. I honestly never delete even a single comment here. I stand by what I write. Anyhow, what would be the point? You come and and remove them anyhow with your obsession with censorship.

OK. I'm done wasting my time with your lies and other nonsense. There are serious things to discuss. Just try being honest and righteous and you might get some respect and some twinkles. Oh yeah, and stop soiling the forum with profanity and swear words. We aren't in a kindergarten sandbox.

BS - that is 4 U = BULLSHIT - don't want 2 confuse U - U being such a dim wit and all. One trash-can is much like another tr-ash-can - so if U R not the original ash-can - no big deal - a shill is a shill is a shill - and U fit the bill.

I don't use bots. If you have evidence to defend your lie that I do, please show us.

Anyhow, happy trolling. I have serious discussions to attend to. Keep lying about epa1nter if you want, and keep making up stories. Whatever. It's fine. Your lies and love for censorship only hurt you in the end.

Anyway, your opinion of decency doesn't count. It's the idea that everyone should be in lock-step and never disagree with each other. It's boring, conservative, and leads to stale thoughts.

↥twinkle ↧stinkle permalink

What Lie? Besides Ur's I mean. And U have no idea of decency - so please stop making me laugh. U have been a failure as a disruption on this forum from day 1 and that has never changed and will never change.

You started the crap here with a lie about epa1nter. I posted a reply to show that you were lying by providing evidence in the form of a comment by epa1nter. epa1nter was a good friend of mine. I feel obliged to defend his honor from those who lie about him.

In any case, I invite you to stop this trolling and join our serious discussion on foods. If you do, please do so as a responsible intelligent adult. The posting is clean right now. Let's keep it that way.

↥twinkle ↧stinkle permalink

Actually except for Ur crap and the crap of others like U - these last few days have been pretty decent 4 the forum.

You just troll. Why not take part in the serious discussion I linked above. Join us. Discuss properly. The posting is clean. I invite you to participate like an intellectual adult. Please don't go there to troll though.

↥twinkle ↧stinkle permalink

C ? There U go again. Chastising Ur self 4 the crap U give others - as it was U who started spewing shit on this thread not I. Have U stopped seeing Ur Dr. ? Is Ur family concerned? If Not - Well They should B.

You started the crap here with a lie about epa1nter. I posted a reply to show that you were lying by providing evidence in the form of a comment by epa1nter. epa1nter was a good friend of mine. I feel obliged to defend his honor from those who lie about him.

In any case, I invite you to stop this trolling and join our serious discussion on foods. If you do, please do so as a responsible intelligent adult. The posting is clean right now. Let's keep it that way.

You just troll. Why not take part in the serious discussion I linked above. Join us. Discuss properly. The posting is clean. I invite you to participate like an intellectual adult. Please don't go there to troll though.

I have to agree. A success story of non violent resistence against greed.

In this nation we have the Constitution. Unfortunately we have a massive deception ongoing. The US government has not been constitutional since 1863. It's been running on the "Lieber code", or The District of Columbia Organic Act of 1871 a private corporation named, “The District of Columbia”.

The "Lieber code" was the rules of engagement for the civil war.

All that is needed is for Americans to realize this enmasse and refuse to recognize the authority. This is particuary important for the military. They are the most abused Americans of all and it is the citizens duty to gently inform them of the deception that has carried too many into unjust wars executing the agenda of rome through British rule, secretly in control of American.

The article author, George Lakey, is the person who deserves any and all credit but thank-you for your gracious comment. In truth, all I did was the same as you and others here have done ; which is I saw the article, read it, digested it ... and felt uplifted and inspired by it. The more I research it - the more pressingly relevant it seems. When I saw it on The I.C.H. ( http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/ ),I knew that I had to share it verbatim. Please disseminate the article and its ideas as widely as you can.

Swedes and Norwegians have been enjoying the fruits of what their forefathers did. Their strong Social Democracies have stood the test of time and they have some of the least unequal societies in the world. Icelanders too show a strong belief in their democracy as they too have reclaimed their country from the 'Bankster Larceny'. The Global 99% have much to learn from all these 'Vikinger Bezerkers' of yore !!

Yes, we have learned to control our "Bezerk[ing]." Our wild side does still surface at Midsummer celebrations, and the like. But other than that we now eat with forks, and have learned to say please and Thank You at the appropriate times. lol

I wish I had asked my Dad more about that tumultuous time in Sweden when he was alive. In a couple of weeks, a good friend will be visiting from Sweden. I will make sure to ask him about what he knows of that tumultuous time, and the benefits that came out of it.

The Swedish/Norwegian blue-print in their early 20th century struggle does sound like one that we should definitely think about emulating in our movement to regain a more equitable system. And in actuality we already are using their methods, with our direct actions.

I think "their methods" are ours now & they are we & we, them !!! The 0.01% say "Globalisation" is here to stay ergo we, The 99% say "Globalise Resistance" !! Together We Are Stronger - wherever we are !

You could ask your visiting friend to bring a Social History Book of that era & I presume you know about Howard Zinn's book about The USA. I espouse Libertarian Socialism, True Participatory Democratic Meritocracy and Environmental Sustainability - but these are just words on a variation of the theme of L<3VE. You are an active occupier and a heart-centred dude ! Shine on ~*~

Thanks, I have forwarded this thread to some friends in OTS/OWS, and i am sure that they would agree that we are following in the footsteps of those early 20th century radicals who achieved so much. Is Libertarian socialism what the the Scandinavian countries have?

My friend has a lot on his plate getting ready to come here, and his daughter who will also be coming is returning any day now from the Amazon where she has been doing field work in oceanography (?), but I will definitely ask him to recommend a book to me. I really do want to learn more about that period of time in Sweden, and Norway. Is Libertarian socialism what the Scandinavian countries have?

How Zinn's book is on the top of my list. I remember GK loved that book. Perhaps, I could get the kids to buy it for me for Christmas, eh?

@ toukarin : Please excuse my answer below, which is cut and pasted from my replies to "GipsyKing' from earlier on this thread but it totally and hopefully - clearly, expresses my answer to your comment :

Perhaps there is - more than ever, the need for a political party to Truly Represent 'Labor" - as opposed to the current situation where both sides of the 'faux dichotomy of Republocrat / Demoblican', only really represent "Capital". Maybe past 2012, it's time for an "American Labor Party" !!!

Tho' I don't actually wish it upon The Good Citizens of The USA ; somewhat paradoxically, the impetus and prospects of 'another way' and a Third Party, will be strategically aided and abetted by the election of a 'Republican' because any one of the possible candidates is extremely likely to be even more antipathetic to The 99% - without the 'Oblah-blah', charm, lip service and 'smoke and mirrors' !!

I feel things would move forward by the increased engagement the very existence of a Third Party would bring as well as working hard for increased voter registration and more emphasis on a 'Party Manifesto and Platform' rather than the standard US 'Personality Cult Driven' modus operandi for 'politicians' !

Platform & Policies must trump 'Personalities' IF The 99% are NOT to be conned and co-opted again !!!

A third option is a must, I have always maintained that, with only two parties (are they that different?), our political system has regressed into fascism.

You are saying a Republican in office might make things bad enough that enough of the populace will awaken to the need for real change and not rhetoric? I can see your point, but this kind of shock therapy may push the population a bit too far.

What I feel is the problem is that we have an excessive focus on the Presidential election. In the end he is one man. What we need is change in the Congress and Senate. Those are the people who really need to go with all their ties to lobbyists, special interest groups etc. etc.

People need to realize that while we raise such a fuss about who our President is, the powerful then stack the deck by loading Congress and the Senate with their cronies who serve longer terms with less scrutiny.

Yes, I agree and to quote you from your first comment above, "People are clamouring for change, but we must be ever vigilant and avoid being swayed by small concessions offered by the ones in power and then abandoning the push for real change.".

The US system of 'checks and balances' seems to have 'checked and balanced' itself out of any real use and effectiveness to represent The US Citizenry as it only seems to really serve the interests of 'Capital'. This is why a growing Occupy Movement in The U$A, is so very important as no one else is doing the very necessary highlighting of issues and protesting the fact that the "political system has regressed into fascism" !!!

It's a 'Numbers Game' and the more the numbers protesting ; in more and more places ; on more and more occasions - the more and more people will realise that Only Their Collective Action will bring about Real Change. Nothing is granted by the Ruling Elites (= Parasites!) ; Any And All positive rights and concessions to justice ever won, have been struggled for and taken 'for and by' Ourselves ; wherever We live On This Good Earth, our beautiful, fragile and shared - Only Home !!

This may sound a tad militant or idealistic to some ears but one only has to read, analyse and reflect upon The Social History of any country but ironically, especially US History, in order to understand this !

Also perhaps please watch this short video, "Crises of Capitalism : David Harvey asks if it is time to look beyond capitalism towards a new social order that would allow us to live within a system that really could be responsible, just, and humane ?" ; http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/article30388.htm .

Though they probably did not use the '1%' epithet, the Norwegians would have (& still do) have a clear idea who and what their parasitic adversaries were. Further, with reference to "Non-Violence", 3 links :

Absolutely INCREDIBLE history lesson about the struggle for economic freedom and equality for all. My original post "Sweden should be our model" has generated a lot more discussion than I anticipated. But one of the most interesting things I found recently is the copy/paste below:

Study: Most Americans want wealth distribution similar to Sweden

By Daniel Tencer
Saturday, September 25, 2010 19:28 EST

92 percent prefer Swedish model to US model when given a choice

Americans generally underestimate the degree of income inequality in the United States, and if given a choice, would distribute wealth in a similar way to the social democracies of Scandinavia, a new study finds.

For decades, polls have shown that a plurality of Americans — around 40 percent — consider themselves conservative, while only around 20 percent self-identify as liberals. But a new study from two noted economists casts doubt on what values lie beneath those political labels.

According to research (PDF) carried out by Michael I. Norton of Harvard Business School and Dan Ariely of Duke University, and flagged by Paul Kedrosky at the Infectious Greed blog, 92 percent of Americans would choose to live in a society with far less income disparity than the US, choosing Sweden’s model over that of the US.

What’s more, the study’s authors say that this applies to people of all income levels and all political leanings: The poor and the rich, Democrats and Republicans are all equally likely to choose the Swedish model.

But the study also found that respondents preferred Sweden’s model over a model of perfect income equality for everyone, “suggesting that Americans prefer some inequality to perfect equality, but not to the degree currently present in the United States,” the authors state.

Recent analyses have shown that income inequality in the US has grown steadily for the past three decades and reached its highest level on record, exceeding even the large disparities seen in the 1920s, before the Great Depression. Norton and Ariely estimate that the one percent wealthiest Americans hold nearly 50 percent of the country’s wealth, while the richest 20 percent hold 84 percent of the wealth.

But in their study, the authors found Americans generally underestimate the income disparity. When asked to estimate, respondents on average estimated that the top 20 percent have 59 percent of the wealth (as opposed to the real number, 84 percent). And when asked to choose how much the top 20 percent should have, on average respondents said 32 percent — a number similar to the wealth distribution seen in Sweden.

“What is most striking” about the results, argue the authors, is that they show “more consensus than disagreement among … different demographic groups. All groups – even the wealthiest respondents – desired a more equal distribution of wealth than what they estimated the current United States level to be, while all groups also desired some inequality – even the poorest respondents.”

The authors suggest the reason that American voters have not made more of an issue of the growing income gap is that they may simply not be aware of it. “Second, just as people have erroneous beliefs about the actual level of wealth inequality, they may also hold overly optimistic beliefs about opportunities for social mobility in the United States, beliefs which in turn may drive support for unequal distributions of wealth,” they write.

The authors also note that, though there may be widespread agreement about income inequality, there is no agreement on what caused it or what should be done about it.

“Americans exhibit a general disconnect between their attitudes towards economic inequality and their self-interest and public policy preferences, suggesting that even given increased awareness of the gap between ideal and actual wealth distributions, Americans may remain unlikely to advocate for policies that would narrow this gap,” the authors argue.

Thanx for the above. The final paragraphs attest to the power of propaganda, 'mind-management' and the 'manufacture of consent' as citizens are induced to act and vote against their own best interests.

Thus I post the following : "Manufacturing Consent : Noam Chomsky and the Media. Required Viewing for every citizen in the Free World. - How government and big media businesses cooperate to produce an effective propaganda machine in order to manipulate the opinions of the United States populace." ;

And here is a link to the PDF that provided the background for the above. After I posted it elsewhere as an original post, I got a response almost immediately requesting additional info. The charts/graphs in particular, as well as how the study was conducted speak for themselves about American attitudes regarding economic equality.

Thanx again. I can't help but to repeat the final line of this study :

"Finally, and more broadly,Americans exhibit a general disconnect between their attitudes toward economic inequality and their self-interest and public policy preferences, suggesting that even given increased awareness of the gap between ideal and actual wealth distributions, Americans may remain unlikely to advocate for policies that would narrow this gap."

Thanx 'GK' + Please also consider that "coalitions can be built" but can also coalesce around the realisation of the need for solidarity !

Most citizens in The USA, need to work for themselves or by selling their labour, knowledge and expertise, work for others in order to pay their bills ; take care of their obligations and finance their lifestyles. Thus from that perspective, stripped of affectations and conceits, most people are 'Working Class' - irrespective of what they do or how much they earn !!

Perhaps there is - more than ever, the need for a political party to Truly Represent 'Labor" - as opposed to the current situation where both sides of the 'faux dichotomy of Republocrat / Demoblican', only really represent "Capital". Maybe past 2012, it's time for an "American Labor Party" !!!

Thanx. I 'liked that you liked' and was more than amused by your linked video. You sound as though you are an ideal person to appreciate the following rather amazing, incredible and somewhat moving performance. The 'shifted up & conscious' lyrics start at 2:20 min. but you will be entranced for the whole seven & half minutes - or your money back ;-)

I read your post and yes at first it seemed a very good example of a decent society... but then I researched Norway and found out something I didn't know...They don't advertise it like the Arabs but the entire system they have is subsidized by North Sea oil. We don't have that kind of wealth for 300+million Americans compared to 4 million Norwegians.

@ 'p22' : The matter of Norway's North Sea Oil is well known in Europe but the most important thing to realise is that the Norwegian 99% had already recalibrated their society by the time North Sea Oil was discovered and exploited, in the 1970's. The real point of the article was to show how the Norwegian industrial and farm workers united in common cause with the Middle Classes to overturn their Parasitic Ruling Elites who were running Norway for their own benefit years before any oil was even known about. When oil was found and exploited, the hard work had already been done.

Furthermore and with typical foresight, the Norwegians have built up a Sovereign Wealth Fund with their oil revenues that is likely to serve them well for at least another generation and probably longer. The UK too had very similar North Sea Oil Revenues but for the last 40 years, successive UK Governments have let Private Oil Corporations take by far the lions share of the oil and merely taxed their profits and used these tax revenues as part of The General Government Current Account. Thus, compare and contrast the rather short-sighted "Pro-Private Corporation ; Business Friendly ; Pseudo-Free Market, Philosophy" of The UK with the "Longer Term, Society-Focussed, Pro-People" approach of The Norwegians.

The U$A is still the most wealthy country on Earth, so I don't know what you mean by : "We don't have that kind of wealth for 300+million Americans" and have you considered just what happened to 'The End Of The Cold War, Peace Dividend and just how much The U$A still continues to spend on The 'Military Industrial Complex' ; Its Military Bases and Its Empire Abroad ?

Finally, perhaps the following links will be of some interest to you and others :

I'm coming round to this idea more and more but it can NOT be easily done by those whose taxes are deducted at source (like 'PAYE' ; "Pay As You Earn", in The UK) and also, it can only really be effective IF 'Organised, Mass Tax Non-Payment' is carried out Simultaneously with donations to charities and social projects, as easy accusations of seeking personal financial gain will otherwise result.

To 'The Parasitic 0.01% and their 1% Lackeys' ; Tax Avoidance and Evasion is of course 'par for the course' !! Remember Martha Stewart and her "Only little people pay taxes", supercilious, pompous conceits ?! For The 99% to engage in 'Principled & Organised Mass Tax Non Payment', it is only possible IF The Moral High Ground can be defended (imho).

Swedes and Norwegians have been enjoying the fruits of what their forefathers did. Their strong Social Democracies have stood the test of time and they have some of the least unequal societies in the world. Icelanders too show a strong belief in their democracy as they too have reclaimed their country from the 'Bankster Larceny'. The Global 99% have much to learn from all these 'Vikinger Bezerkers' of yore !!

I could do no better than use the same words as months ago in thanx for your very telling comment & solidarity to u & your friends on the ground for #S17 today. Take care, be well, warm and aware. Var val min van och solidaritet.

Alas, ''people continue to promote and vote for the duopoly in the hope that one party can bring us to the promised land'' is an indication of desperation and a lack of imagination and arguably conforms to Einstein's theory of madness. More of the same is no choice at all.

''You can slow down decentralized movements, but as long as repressive conditions persist, you cannot stop them. By their nature, decentralized movements toward freedom ebb and flow like waves, shape-shifting and growing increasingly effective in achieving their goals, while weeding out and exposing saboteurs, egos and shortsighted agendas along the way. Decentralized movements are forces much bigger than anyone can wrap their hands around and control; like trying to grasp flowing water or control the mighty seas.''

Still - if people would stop voting for the blatant assholes - the ones that smile at em while lying - slapping em in the face time after time after time with a 2x4. Well things might be a little different. Don't ya think?

Ah, 'the lesser of two evils' argument that bought us Obomber ! There are the smiling Republicons and the non-smiling Democraps but The 99% are being thwacked by a 2x4 in any case !! War & Empire roll on and Banksterism & Corporatocracy prevail because The Banksters and Corporate Oligarchs pay for both sides and swing their money both ways - did you know that a) Charles Koch once ran as a Dem & b)The extent of Obummer's debt & ownership by Banksters ?! It speaks volumes that Dems oust people like Dennis Kucinich and Cynthia McKinney and there'll be no revolution or even fundamental change by holding on to the status quo & I recommend :

Still watching - but - right off the bat - how do these idiots collect all of this information - and then still have an economic meltdown? Shit all of this is an inside traders ( members of government among others ) wet dream. They ( TPTB ) are sitting there laughing their asses off at how badly that they are gonna rip everyone's face off everyone's but their own - ooooops - well no biggy we will have the government bail us out - nothing ventured nothing gained - Right?

It is also funny that this would be aired on RT. Well I guess - not that funny.

I really liked the interview - but felt that it was unfortunate to leave out the MSM as part of the tearing down process.

BTW - it is not really the lesser of two evils per say as it is more finding and supporting good people who support the people and the Constitution. As anyone who gets put into office - and no the party does not matter - the individual matters - anyone who gets placed into office does not even have to follow their oath of office.

No, I hadn't seen it but have opened it & will both read & watch very soon. Thanx & I hope that I hope you'll do the same - especially for the 2nd halves of Lee Camp's & Max Keiser's shows - both of which feature Greg Palast. It was Camp's first 'Moment of Clarity' show & Keiser's very latest show & I strongly recommend both. Prep for jaw on chest ;-) & also fyi :

I just watched your video link & realised that the text was a transcript. I really enjoyed it and could relate to it very well and the interviewee (Nathan Schneider) is the editor of http://wagingnonviolence.org/ which is right at the top of this forum-post & from where this forum-post originated. Thanx again & solidarity :-)

How ironic that you idolize a country that receives over 20% of its GDP from the oil sector. Their GDP growth is clearly dependent on North Sea oil, natural gas and minerals.

We could have the same thing but the government just delayed the XL pipeline. Maybe we should put all of our investment into developing the shale reserves and eliminate the solar investments we are making that does nothing but support the Chinese.

I would like to get official Swedish government statistics on this to put this to rest once and for all. Can someone provide it? I have seen statistics all over the place on these posts ranging from a low of 6% to as high as 40%-50%.

"Norway, the largest holder of natural gas and oil reserves in Europe, provides much of the oil and gas consumed on the continent. In fact, in 2010, Norway was the second largest exporter of natural gas in the world, second only to Russia. In 2010, crude oil, natural gas, and pipeline transport services accounted for almost 50 percent of Norway's exports value, 21 percent of GDP, and 25 percent of government revenues according to the Norwegian Petroleum Directorate".

Sorry about the confusion of Sweden vs. Norway. I went out to the US EIA site looking for the facts on Sweden and couldn't find any due my unfamiliarity with the site. Could you perhaps be kind enough to provide them? I am a big supporter of the Swedish model and would really like to know the facts since there are a lot of people advocating against it for similar reasons you might be arguing about Norway. Thanks.

I personally think Sweden is a very different country than Norway. Since the mid part of the last decade they have moved to lower taxes and government spending due to slow growth. The other unspoken part of all of the Scandinavian countries is the homogeneity of the population and the very strong work ethic and culture. It is very interesting that looking at areas where they have emigrated to, shows that they brought this culture with them, a la Minnesota.

'Inside Job' provides a comprehensive analysis of the global financial crisis of 2008, which at a cost over $20 trillion, caused millions of people to lose their jobs and homes in the worst recession since the Great Depression, and nearly resulted in a global financial collapse.

"The Warning" is an excellent insight into the individuals and events involved in the lead up to 2008.

Why not click the links ? What are you so fearful of ?! Is encountering or reading another point of view, really so difficult or frightening ?!! Bar your petty, puerile prejudices, what have you really got to loose ?!!!

I'm fearful of software bugs. You represent the people that just vandalized Oakland's city hall. You don't believe in respectable behavior so I don't put it past you to attempt to vandalize my computer.

shadz66 is legit. I open his/her links all the time without a problem. He's also very smart and we all learn a lot from him/her. As a matter of fact, I've had no problem in this forum at all with that type of thing except for one time and my software blocked the "malicious url."

Shucks, thanx mate ! I only just answered 'jflynn' myself but somewhat less graciously !! For the record, I'm a bloke & more importantly, I don't think the only thinly disguised 'jflynn', has really been the same since 'The Travelling Wilburys' started losing members !!!

Maybe he should resurrect 'The ELO' and start writing songs again !!! That & get a decent 'anti-virus' ...

Hey 'T' ! Can I DJ if I can balance the decks on my zimmer frame at this future party ?!! + To change the groove from 'Scots Rock', to follow are a couple of tunes that you'll recognize by 'Curtis Mayfield' {RIP} :

Well sister 'bw', you have my respect and solidarity & "Oldie + Goodie = Goldie"? & for you and further to the live version which I posted for 'WooHoo' earlier on & further up this thread, here's a song, a hymn and a prayer : "Spirit", by 'The Waterboys' from 1985ish ; http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7plNRs5kwgE - but sorry about the cheesy video !!

Hey, I know this song very well !! 'The Waterboys' and 'Big Country' are both Scottish bands from the same era, so maybe the accent tweaked your memory. I still own 'The Crossing' and 'Steeltown' (1st & 2nd BC albums) and Stuart Adamson [RIP] was a great songsmith who had an incredible way of making his guitar sound like the 'skirl of bagpipes', so as you can probably tell, I'm a big fan. Thanx ;-)

I've been playing various 'Big Country' tracks since you gifted your link above and so on a "Spirit" tip, I came across the following song from the last album before Stuart Adamson prematurely passed on to 'The Great Gig In The Sky' : "Your Spirit To Me" (Live) - Big Country" ; http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Bqpbgp1WRv4&feature=related ! A song that I wasn't even familiar with but now thanx to you, I am ;-)

Tch, 'jflynn' !!! I frequently attach links to my posts but and I have never had anyone complain. I myself have opened every link that I attach and would not have lasted long on this forum IF I was providing corrupted links. I suppose that you are not to know this having just only joined on Saturday, 29th Jan.

However, the statement : "You represent the people that just vandalized Oakland's city hall. You don't believe in respectable behavio(u)r so I don't put it past you to attempt to vandalize my computer.", really only sums up and reflects upon your own mean-spirited ; negative, obtuse and paranoid mindset !

With all your 'fear and loathing', one wonders what motivates your joining this forum and posting on these threads. I would never "vandalize" your computer nor would I need to even if I knew how, as clearly your own 'Internal Psychic Operating System' is pretty corrupted already ! Now who should you blame for that ?! Your (probably already long suffering) parents, perhaps ?!!

You'll find that your whole world view will improve immensely once you've unblocked your heart and extracted your head from your (x) ... and good luck with writing an algorithm for that process !!!

I could not disagree more as - The problem IS the two party system ; The problem IS Crapitalism and The problem IS politicians !!! That which you single out as "The problem is the crapitalist influence of money on our politicians" is really and honestly only a later symptom of the former !! Finally re. "A very straightforward solution that 80% of Americans already want -- get money out of politics" - well there is nothing "straightforward" about it as The Corporate Capture & Control of 'Politricks in The U$A' shows !

Ever heard of of 'ALEC' ? Of course I know that you have but I still append :

'Money Out Off Politics' won't just happen IF left to the politicians - with one or two exceptions (Bernie Sanders, Dennis Kucinich & Cynthia McKinney come to mind!) US Politicians are bought and paid for. ONLY a Mass 99% Movement pressing from the bottom up and possibly votes for the likes of Jill Stein will change this BS Bad Situation but do NOT hold your breath for any 'top down reform' and tinkering !

If you somehow honestly believe that modern Crapitalism "works well" for The Global 99% and that The Corporate Captured and Controlled Faux-Duopoly demoCRAZY deMOCKERYcy in The U$A "works well", then frankly anything I say will not disabuse you of your delusions.

If we were to have an exchange here, we would probably talk past, through and around each other and given your rather idiosyncratic notational style and your insistence on taking ownership of my more generic "BS" aside, well ... then I shall leave you to perhaps re-read the forum-posted article and/or reflect on what 'OWS' is really all about.

And I thought that my respect for "the man" was both clear and very evident !!! Ho-humm ; something, somewhere is "obviously" awry !! I wonder who or what it could be ?! Me thinks perchance, that maybe it's just that you'd like to think and speak ill of me ... ho-hummm and glum .. et ad absurdum(b) ! ~{:-(

The same copyright protections exist for the author of a work regardless of whether the work is in print, in a library research database, a blog, an online discussion board or comment space, or any social media formats.
If you make a copy from an online source for your personal use, it is more likely to be seen as fair use. However, if you make a copy and put it online, it is less likely to be considered fair use.
Note that the Internet IS NOT the public domain. There are both copyrighted and uncopyrighted materials online. Always assume a work online is copyrighted.

What ? Would it make your day ?! Why ?!! & Now Who's Asking The Questions ?!!! ad absurdum(b) ...

[ps : Have you just cut & pasted your comment above entitled "Copyright and Electronic Publishing"? It sure looks like you did ! What, without reference to source or any accreditation ?!! "Your respect for the author, and his rights, and his intellectual property are obviously hypocritical." !!! Also, please could you further expound on the matter of "hypocrisy" for the edification and information of the rest of us here ?!!]

I really like these ideas, but I don't know if this is possible between now and November. If not that we should get right on the creation of a third party as soon as the election is over. I think that's the direction we have to go in. I think the main problem in the short run is time, and also the fact that somehow we need to unite a third party around a platform agreeable, or at least acceptable to all concerned - not an easy task.

Personally, I think RP is the most aggressive proponent of the 1% out there.

I concur that very little is electorally possible until after the election. Tho' I don't actually wish it upon The Good Citizens of The USA ; somewhat paradoxically, the impetus and prospects of 'another way' and a Third Party, are likely to be strategically aided and abetted by the election of a 'Republican' because any one of the possible candidates is extremely likely to be even more antipathetic to The 99% - without so much of the 'Oblah-blah', charm, lip service and 'smoke and mirrors' !

On the matter of the "need to unite around a platform" ; the situation'd be much eased and alleviated I feel, by the increased engagement the very existence of a Third Party would bring as well as working hard for increased voter registration and more emphasis on a 'Party Manifesto and Platform' rather than more of the same standard US 'Personality Cult Driven' modus operandi for 'politicians' !!

Platform & Policies must trump 'Personalities' IF The 99% are NOT to be conned and co-opted again !!!

I understand your point, but I genuinely see great parellels between our situation and that of Germany before the burning of the Reichstag; and that didn't turn out so well. It's easier to put certain people in power than it is to get them out again.

'GK' : That was less a "humble attempt to sound the claxon" and more a blaring trumpet of doom blown in one's ear during a comfy kip in an armchair in front of a roaring open fire !!!

It made me jolt and remember a lot of things that I have thought and said in the past on the matter of "An Overtly Fascist U$A", things that are so Dark that I generally keep them to myself these days !!

[+]-6 points
by ZenDogTroll
(13032)
from South Burlington, VT
4 years ago

that is one central piece of the argument - the issue is in making a convincing case where the perception may run counter to this simple principle, and in understanding the sources of support behind such contrary perceptions.