Tuesday, July 07, 2015

At Castalia House, Morgan demonstrates that the divide has been around a lot longer than most of us realized, it's just that the relative positions have been reversed thanks to the post-1980s gatekeepers:

A backlash against Conan began in the October 1933 issue. Sylvia Bennett of Detroit wrote in to say,

“Will Robert E. Howard ever cease writing his infernal stories of ‘red battles’ and ‘fierce warfare’? I am becoming weary of his continuous butchery and slaughter. After I finish reading one of his gory stories I feel as if I am soaked with blood.”

Weird Tales contributor Jack Williamson, who would survive as one of the most long-lived writers from the pulp era, wrote to “The Eyrie” for the December 1933 issue defending “Black Colossus”:

“I was rather surprised at the brickbat aimed by Miss Sylvia Bennett at Howard’s Black Colossus, which struck me as a splendid thing, darkly vivid, with a living primitive power.”

Sylvia Bennett would return to “The Eyrie” in the June 1934 issue:

“Northwest Smith has become my idol in WEIRD TALES. Believe it or not, I’ve fallen passionately in love with him. There is a character for you! Warm, human, lovable and incredibly realistic. No barbarian baboon hot-head, this one, who slices off human and unhuman heads on the slightest pretext; nor snarls and growls at his girl-friends; nor socks his dames with such manly toughness as would make Clark Gable and Jimmy Cagney look like sissies in comparison. It is certain C. L. Moore is destined to become a popular Weird Tales author. Although Black Thirst did not reach the high standard of Shambleau, still it was an excellent job, weirdly and thrillingly beautiful.”

In other words, women have been trying to turn SF/F into romance novels long before Catherine Asaro or Stephanie Meyers were even born. The difference, of course, is that people didn't pretend that what is essentially an SF/F-Romance hybrid was the True and Proper SF/F, much less give it awards claiming it to be best of breed.

However, notice the proto-SJW declaration of the inevitability of C.L. Moore's success. Some things simply do not change.

68 Comments:

But at least the gore of Conan was realistic, at least in comparison to the behavior, expectations, and psychology portrayed in romance novels. What readers of such things say they want is entirely different than what they pay money for engrossing themselves in. Strange psych, that.

"The People of the Black Circle" was his best straight-up rip-roaring adventure; I'd say his best story was The Hour of the Dragon. The villains in there felt more understandable to me than the Seers of Yimsha ever did, and the story had more of an epic worldshaking feel to it. (Not a slam against the Seers, who are supposed to be cryptic and incomprehensible, but I like my drama to take place between humans.)

I went through a Conan phase in my 20s when I read most of Howard's stuff. It's great pulp fantasy. (You can see elements of his original story in Milius' largely faithful screen adaptation.) Bennett did Howard's works a disservice, and one suspects it's because she did not understand masculinity very well. I would guess this is the root of the problem with the blue/pink divide -- the ongoing war on masculinity. And it's something that annoys me about my sex. When they don't understand something, they often attack it instead of just leaving it alone to be what it is and for others to enjoy.

Also, it's been several years since I read any of Howard's stuff, but I remember Conan being somewhat charming when it came to women.

"Mrs. theCimmerian is in full agreement. She still gets charmed right out of her clothes."

The stars aligned for that one.

"Like Stickwick, I've never understood that female compulsion to force things to change in order to fit their narrative rather than leave it alone."

It's a shit test, that's all it is. Women feel compelled to attack, to gauge the strength of something so they can feel secure. If men simply told them to shut up and get to the kitchen, we'd see far less of this.

Hour of the Dragon is great. I think it is a reworking of Phoenix on the Sword. It does have it's sorcerous elements but the main rotters are the treasonous Aquilonians. And there is the nail biting escape from the dungeon. That scared me silly when I was a kid reading it.

A good, if not great, writer of the classic era of SF. Her story Shambleau was a classic, and she wrote a bunch of other good stuff, both on her own and in collaboration with husband Henry Kuttner. She's not to be blamed for the maunderings of this proto-SJW.

"A good, if not great, writer of the classic era of SF. Her story Shambleau was a classic, and she wrote a bunch of other good stuff...."

And that's the tragedy of SJ criticism: nothing is ever allowed to be enjoyed or assessed simply for what it *is*, only for how it does or doesn't advance a preferred agenda, and personal taste in aesthetics or entertainment becomes a criterion for moral judgment. It's not enough just to appreciate Moore as a good *writer*, you have to genuflect at the altar of her femaleness too.

Let us now see what the opinion is of the guy who the Hugo Awards were named after:

With the rise of the pulps, women continued to write speculative fiction. But, by the 1920’s the term “science fiction” had been coined by Hugo Gernsback, editor of Amazing Stories. In 1929, Minna Irving wrote “The Moon Woman” for Amazing Stories’ Lillith Lorraine wrote “Into the 28th Century” for Science Wonder Quarterly. Hugo Gernsback, the father of science fiction had once written: “as a rule, women do not make good science fiction writers because their education and general tendencies in scientific matters are usually limited” (Donawerth 39).

I always liked Moorcock's Dancers At The End Of Time series. Does that count as romance sci-fi? The protagonist in that pursues his lady love through time even past the point where it loops back around on itself. Now that would make a good miniseries for HBO or Netflix. Some mature topics here and there. It would need a vast CGI budget.

Hugo Gernsback, the father of science fiction had once written: “as a rule, women do not make good science fiction writers because their education and general tendencies in scientific matters are usually limited”

Hate crime! I assume they'll be removing his name from the award forthwith and renaming it for someone more sensitive and diverse. It's clearly not acceptable to go on honoring someone who held such unacceptable beliefs about women. Why, an aspiring young female sci-fi writer could read that and feel microaggressed every time she hears about the award, and never be able to bring herself to write again!

Hugo Gernsback, the father of science fiction had once written: “as a rule, women do not make good science fiction writers because their education and general tendencies in scientific matters are usually limited”

So, instead of getting educated in science and writing harder sci-fi, women major in squishy subjects, write romance-in-space, and complain about how misogynistic it is to point out that women major in squishy subjects and write romance-in-space.

Except in this case the prediction was accurate. CL Moore's Northwest Smith stories are classics, and she is certainly in the upper ranks of writers at the time, albeit sadly overlooked today. She does not have the iconic stature of Robert E Howard, to be sure, but she can hold her head up alongside Jack Williamson, Leigh Brackett, Andre Norton, Eando Binder, A Merrit, Clark Ashton Smith, and the other luminaries of the pulp era.

Northwest Smith was in no way, shape, or form a romance hero. He is an action hero, more akin to Han Solo or Sam Spade than Rhett Butler.

Hugo Gernsback, the father of science fiction had once written: “as a rule, women do not make good science fiction writers because their education and general tendencies in scientific matters are usually limited”

And that nutbar time travel series Outlander which if anyone is unfamiliar with it, is about a world war nurse who hears tales of something odd at stonehenge and goes to investigate, then winds up in 18th century Eire.

First: She's running around Scotland, not Ireland. Geography, man, study it.Second: At least the author recognized that her modern woman main character was not suitable as a native of the era in which she was writing, and thus added time travel to the story so that there was a logical (...er, more or less...) reason for the presence of the modern empowered woman 200 year before her time.

The Jirel of Joiry stories weren't as good as Howard's Conan but are a very good read and despite bleats from some of her fans, she probably had more in common with Sara Hoyt than any proto-SJW writing about were-seals

"In other words, women have been trying to turn SF/F into romance novels long before Catherine Asaro or Stephanie Meyers were even born"

Didn't know they had been born. Much less considered SF lights. Because outside of the Circle few care any more what's happening in spec fiction. Experienced fans know it's co-opted.

The Team Woman takeover of fiction, English/Writing departments, publishing, small magazine editorial boards etc. was already well-advanced by the end of the Seventies. By the end of the Eighties the Pink Out was ubiquitous and only the naïve or neo-prog participated in these fields and programs, because all work (fiction or otherwise) was scrutinized and vetted carefully for proper ideo-political content. Anything masculine was forced out or pressured out, while the new Lilith Literati presented awards to one another for the next forty years.

I have enjoyed quite a few C.L. Moore stories, and they are fun pulp era stories. Beyond the ones mentioned, there was one really odd one where a famous female singer that had some mishap. I believe they transfered her brain into a robot, and tried to revive her stage career. :)

R.E.H. is in my list of all time favorites. I've yet to see any other author who can match the roaring intensity of his battle scenes and fights. Also his concept of civilization being assailed by various forces is something i find interesting.

Yes, Conan, and Solomon Kane are fun. I also enjoyed the Kull stories and those crazy shape shifting lizard men.

modern woman main character was not suitable as a native of the era in which she was writing, and thus added time travel to the story so that there was a logical (...er, more or less...) reason for the presence of the modern empowered woman 200 year before her time.

C. L. Moore, Clark Ashton Smith, and Robert E. Howard were the golden age of Weird Tales in the 1930s. Moore was repetitive with plots at this time. She seemed to break out from the same story over and over in the late 1930s when she linked up with Henry Kuttner. A creative torrent came through. She and Kuttner were top tier science fiction writers around 1942-48. She flamed out quick in the late 1950s after Henry Kuttner died.

ray: ' The Team Woman takeover of fiction, English/Writing departments, publishing, small magazine editorial boards etc. was already well-advanced by the end of the Seventies. By the end of the Eighties the Pink Out was ubiquitous and only the naïve or neo-prog participated in these fields and programs, because all work (fiction or otherwise) was scrutinized and vetted carefully for proper ideo-political content. Anything masculine was forced out or pressured out, while the new Lilith Literati presented awards to one another for the next forty years.'

That could explain why much more females than males read fiction. Males like adventure plots, but the literary gatekeepers mentioned by Ray have strangled the release of that type of fiction. So there isn't much fiction to interest males.

Haven't read any CL Moore (tho I have heard of her and Jirel of Jorey), but Howard's Conan tales just leap off the page. He packs so much action and depth into these shorts that I'm in awe of his talent.

Also, Sylvia Bennett made a rather common mistake (which is also made by more current reviewers) of comparing Conan to a modern man. Alexander the Great was counted as being exceptionally merciful when he executed 1 man out every 10 in territories that he'd conquered, as opposed to the "standard" of killing all men. Conan and Alexander (and other historical or historical-fictional persons) can't be judged according to modern standards, but must be judged by the standards of their times.

#47 "But this Jerry Cornelius story I'm reading... so many words but little happens."

And that's the series where Michael Moorcock and I part ways. Is there a Cliff's Notes to the thing? Is it even supposed to make sense? Did I read it out of order? Does it matter if I read it out of order? Upside down? Under a UV light? Stoned? Re-entering Earth's atmosphere at an incorrect angle?

Supposedly one was made into a film. Maybe that will help if I can find it.

'The Last Days of Man on Earth.' Based on the first Jerry Cornelius book, 'The Final Programme' and sometimes given that title. http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0070289/?ref_=fn_al_tt_1It a bizarre movie and has some prime and has some pretty good naughty bits or at least seemed so to my adolescent self when uncensored cable channels first came around in the late 70s. Since it is based on the first book it comes somewhat close to having a followable plot.

The Jerry Cornelius books are each the dream of the following book's protagonist. Or so I vaguely recall. By the end he was just a London teenager, dealing with a dysfunctional family and escaping into fantasy.

In both of the C.L. Moore stories mentioned there is a sexy alien female (alien, yet very physically appealing to a human male) who ends up getting killed by either Northwest or his partner in the end (the Shambleu out of self-defense and the Minga out of pity).

You can't entirely blame the ladies for not understanding that "science fiction" does not mean "just any story that takes place in the future, including romances, teenage girl coming-of-age stories complete with first menstruation, and unhappy elderly ladies becoming reconciled to their sisters."

"Science Fiction" was originally adventure fiction and that has always been its biggest fan base. The "science" part was just to give it a certain quality. An alien planet is just a bit more adventurous than any place on Earth. But I'll bet most fans of science fiction would far rather read Treasure Island, Riders of the Purple Sage or The Count of Monte Christo than any romance-in-space novel ever written.

A better name for the genre would be something like "Unworldly Adventure" or something else that indicates it is ADVENTURE FICTION that takes place in an other-worldly setting such as fantasy or future.

I've read a lot of MM, but haven't read the Jerry Cornelius stuff yet. I'm more into the S&S tales. MM had a lot of entertaining concepts in his stories, where it could become confusing as he was mixing things like time travel, past lives, Eternal Champions, alternate universes (or were they), etc. But the basic stories would still be entertaining from the adventure aspect. He was the first author I recall encountering that brought forth the concept of Order vs Chaos, as opposed to Good, Evil and Neutral.

"The Team Woman takeover of fiction, English/Writing departments, publishing, small magazine editorial boards etc. was already well-advanced by the end of the Seventies. By the end of the Eighties the Pink Out was ubiquitous and only the naïve or neo-prog participated in these fields and programs, because all work (fiction or otherwise) was scrutinized and vetted carefully for proper ideo-political content. Anything masculine was forced out or pressured out, while the new Lilith Literati presented awards to one another for the next forty years."

Impressive fantasy writing.

"In other words, women have been trying to turn SF/F into romance novels long before Catherine Asaro or Stephanie Meyers were even born."

All Bennett was doing was lamenting about formulaic writing. To my knowledge, she was not leading a widespread, concerted effort to "destroy Blue SF".