The Wikileaks disclosures of some 260,000 classified documents by the avowed America-hater and certifiable weirdo Julian Assange haven't yet done the kind of damage to U.S. interests that he hoped they would. Most of the State Dept cables reveal American diplomats doing their jobs capably...even admirably (from what I've read).

They have put diplomats and political leaders and others in harm's way in other countries, however (notably in Mugabe's Zimbabwe) and surely all the damage has not yet been done.

Since Assange isn't an American, we can't put him up against a wall and shoot him, but I had been laboring under the assumption that most Americans could at least agree that Private Manning, the American soldier who violated his oath by providing all those documents to Assange, was a traitor, and should face the full force of the law in this country for what he has done.

Come to find out that he has become something of a cause celebre among the far-Left elements of our society (the Michael Moore types...you know, people who became incredibly wealthy due to American freedom and capitalism and now strike poses about its evils to help them sleep at night...or something)

I think Private Manning could be considered both a traitor and hero depending on how you interpret his actions. More specifically, what was the motive driving him to do what he did? Every member of the military swears by an oath to support and defend the Constitution against all enemies foreign and domestic. Although the voice he used to bring these documents to light (Assange) might not have been the best choice, if PVT Manning was privy to information that would expose U.S. injustices of a serious and dire nature, he might have felt it was in the best interests of his country to make this information public. The problem is, he exposed a lot more, and it could potentially put innocent people in danger. That is his crime. I believe he absolutely committed electronic espionage, but I can't go so far to say he committed the act of treason.

I anticipate in this thread a lot of folks are going to want him hanged/lined up and shot. That I can't agree with for him or Assange, though Assange is a huge douche. Having those documents in and of itself isn't nearly as bad as publishing only certain pieces of it to push an agenda. That is merely propaganda and hardly the truth that Assange so eloquenty proclaims the wires will put to light. Personally, I don't think there is a definitive right and wrong here aside from the cyber-crimes Manning committed. While I love this country, and believe its the greatest superpower on Earth and a beacon of freedom in comparison to the rest of the world, I can't help but think our government, via the military, very much has a "we police the world so what we say goes" mentality. I feel a lot of citizens have this mantra as well. Many countries feel U.S. tourists are the worst because they expect everyone to work on their terms. That's not right, and it certainly doesn't help our image. In regards to foreign relations, I think there has to be a limit to the scope and reach our government has in terms of foreign diplomacy and policy. The government could surely preach that the U.S. operates under the guise of "protecting U.S. citizens no matter the cost", the problem is when you apply that methodology to encroach upon the rights of non-U.S. sovereign lands, you're treading on the fine line of worldly mediator and imperialist(both militaristic and cultral).

"All Beckett needs to do to cap off this mess is order some fried chicken and beer" – 5/10/12 before Beckett got chased in the 3rd at Fenway.

RickNashEquilibrium wrote:I think Private Manning could be considered both a traitor and hero depending on how you interpret his actions. More specifically, what was the motive driving him to do what he did? Every member of the military swears by an oath to support and defend the Constitution against all enemies foreign and domestic. Although the voice he used to bring these documents to light (Assange) might not have been the best choice, if PVT Manning was privy to information that would expose U.S. injustices of a serious and dire nature, he might have felt it was in the best interests of his country to make this information public. The problem is, he exposed a lot more, and it could potentially put innocent people in danger. That is his crime. I believe he absolutely committed electronic espionage, but I can't go so far to say he committed the act of treason.

I anticipate in this thread a lot of folks are going to want him hanged/lined up and shot. That I can't agree with for him or Assange, though Assange is a huge douche. Having those documents in and of itself isn't nearly as bad as publishing only certain pieces of it to push an agenda. That is merely propaganda and hardly the truth that Assange so eloquenty proclaims the wires will put to light. Personally, I don't think there is a definitive right and wrong here aside from the cyber-crimes Manning committed. While I love this country, and believe its the greatest superpower on Earth and a beacon of freedom in comparison to the rest of the world, I can't help but think our government, via the military, very much has a "we police the world so what we say goes" mentality. I feel a lot of citizens have this mantra as well. Many countries feel U.S. tourists are the worst because they expect everyone to work on their terms. That's not right, and it certainly doesn't help our image. In regards to foreign relations, I think there has to be a limit to the scope and reach our government has in terms of foreign diplomacy and policy. The government could surely preach that the U.S. operates under the guise of "protecting U.S. citizens no matter the cost", the problem is when you apply that methodology to encroach upon the rights of non-U.S. sovereign lands, you're treading on the fine line of worldly mediator and imperialist(both militaristic and cultral).

Your feelings towards this country/government/military whatever should not be relevant to your feelings on Bradley. Bradly volunteered for the military, swore an oath to defend the Constitution, swore more oaths to protect classified information, then stole it and gave it to an enemy of our country, most likely for a lot of money. He's no better than Hansen. He wasn't exposing the U.S. testing nerve gas on orphans in Rawanda. He didn't find out 9/11 was an inside job and expose it to the New York Times becuase it was what he truely believed was right. He was copying every shred of classified info he could get his grubby little dickbeaters on and selling it to the creepiest guy this side of Ted Bundy.

Treason, no ifs, ands or buts about it. Hang him from the White House rafters, if you can. Line him up against the Washington Monument and shoot him. Toss him off the top of the Sears Tower. I really don't care how you do it, this kid deserves to die for what he did.

You cannot help men permanently by doing for them what they could and should do for themselves-----Abe Lincoln

Let me tell you, if any of you douchebag empty headed stuffed suit nanny politicians tries to fuck with my bacon, I’m going after you like a crazed chimpanzee on bath salts. -----Lars

RickNashEquilibrium wrote:Having those documents in and of itself isn't nearly as bad as publishing only certain pieces of it to push an agenda.

But like Al said, that's not what Manning (or Assange) did. They released them en masse....260,000 classified documents...diplomatic cables...the behind the scenes dialogue that other countries engage in only because they have (or had) the assurance that what they say won't be made public.

And the "agendas" they were pursuing were different, but equally malign, from America's perspective. Manning sold out his country for money, while Assange's motive was pure anti-Americanism. I can see how the America-haters the world over would celebrate what Assange did, even as they fail to see that the world is a more dangerous place when America is weakened and passive and untrustworthy. But how is Manning anything but a traitor?

"I believe it is the nature of the human species to reject what is true but unpleasant and to embrace what is obviously false but comforting." H.L. Mencken

To be clear - do we know without a shadow of a doubt Manning's motives whether financial or personal? Is there a paper trail that is absolute proof that he did this for personal gain? I'm seriously asking because I've searched and can't find anything that explicitly says he was paid a sum of money by Assange. I am not so naive to think he didn't, but you need proof as the letter of the law. If so, I am with you 100%. Treason in the worst way. The trouble is, if Manning did in fact KNOW of wrongdoings by the military and/or government and felt this was the only means of getting that information out, then his indiscretion falls under idiocy for giving it to a guy who is clearly anti-American.

The issue in question is motive - if Manning's actions were a deliberate attempt to put US assets (both civilian and military) in harms way it is treason. If he stumbled across information that clearly paints the picture of US committing war crimes such as killing civilians and what-not, it becomes more of a gray area. If someone shows me he did this with malice/vigilance rather than a genuine concern with government wrongdoing, yeah shoot the bastard.

As for that last sentence regarding what classified info he copied, if it was a straight data dump just to get as much info as possible without any due diligence as to the nature of the information, I'd consider that treason as well. What I am getting at is determining whether or not Manning acted solely as a beneficiary of said information, or if he did it with some skewed perspetive that his actions would correct an injustice.

"All Beckett needs to do to cap off this mess is order some fried chicken and beer" – 5/10/12 before Beckett got chased in the 3rd at Fenway.

Since Assange isn't an American, we can't put him up against a wall and shoot him

Treason, no ifs, ands or buts about it. Hang him from the White House rafters, if you can. Line him up against the Washington Monument and shoot him. Toss him off the top of the Sears Tower. I really don't care how you do it, this kid deserves to die for what he did.

lol. Maybe we can rip his guts out and feed them to wolves while he's still alive? Or tear his arms off and throw him in the sea?

Such tough talk from a adorable princess of a party. Such a mean bark, but no teeth.

Maybe we should let him have his day in court before we kill him, eh?

If we're gonna start enforcing treason, alot of folks from the previous admin are gonna have face the rope and drop too. But you don't want to hear that....

No calls for death for Manning from here, CDT. I'm not a big death penalty guy (though I'm for the states having the right to make that call). At the Fed/military level it won't happen, and it shouldn't, IMO. Not for this, disgraceful as it was. Serious jail time is what he'll do, which sounds about right.

The Assange thing was a hypothetical, he's not an American...we can't do it, even if we wanted to. Just to be clear, I don't want Assange shot either.

"I believe it is the nature of the human species to reject what is true but unpleasant and to embrace what is obviously false but comforting." H.L. Mencken

danwismar wrote:No calls for death for Manning from here, CDT. I'm not a big death penalty guy (though I'm for the states having the right to make that call). At the Fed/military level it won't happen, and it shouldn't, IMO. Not for this, disgraceful as it was. Serious jail time is what he'll do, which sounds about right.

The Assange thing was a hypothetical, he's not an American...we can't do it, even if we wanted to. Just to be clear, I don't want Assange shot either.

I've always wanted ask some of our resident Christians where they come down on the death penalty. Not in a snarky way, just out of curiosity. I've been on that fence for years, and i'm not sure where I stand.

Since Assange isn't an American, we can't put him up against a wall and shoot him

Treason, no ifs, ands or buts about it. Hang him from the White House rafters, if you can. Line him up against the Washington Monument and shoot him. Toss him off the top of the Sears Tower. I really don't care how you do it, this kid deserves to die for what he did.

lol. Maybe we can rip his guts out and feed them to wolves while he's still alive? Or tear his arms off and throw him in the sea?

Such tough talk from a adorable princess of a party. Such a mean bark, but no teeth.

Maybe we should let him have his day in court before we kill him, eh?

If we're gonna start enforcing treason, alot of folks from the previous admin are gonna have face the rope and drop too. But you don't want to hear that....

How is Oliver North still alive?

Ok, to be clear, if he's convicted for what he allegedly did, then in my opinion its treason and he deserves to die. Wouldn't want to excecute an innocent.

Such tough talk from a adorable princess of a party. Such a mean bark, but no teeth.

I honestly don't know what this means.

If you have names of anyone in the previous administration who committed treason, by all means share. They would deserve to die as well. I'd love to hear about it. Because if you're suggesting that I like President Bush (or any president for that matter) more than I love my country, you'd be sadly mistaken. And please for Christ's sake don't say Scooter Libby, because then you'd be more of an ignorant rube than I thought.

You cannot help men permanently by doing for them what they could and should do for themselves-----Abe Lincoln

Let me tell you, if any of you douchebag empty headed stuffed suit nanny politicians tries to fuck with my bacon, I’m going after you like a crazed chimpanzee on bath salts. -----Lars

Cerebral_DownTime wrote:I've wanted to go out west for vacation for a while now, just haven't done it. Colorado being my first choice, even though I don't ski.

Plenty of shit to do out here even if you don't ski. I say when you come out you, me and our wives do the Denver/Boulder/Ft. Collins beer tour. Just need to find some others to drive us on our excursion.

Leaking the name of a classified CIA agent isn't treason? Christ.. If someone in the Obama Admin did that...... you would be calling for their head on a pike.

Scooter was just the minion, that shit came from up top...... and I don't even think Bush was down with it, seeing the rift that formed between him and Cheney after Bush didn't pardon Libby outright.

Get a couple of facts right, please. For starters, Plame wasn't covert, so leaking her identity wasn't a crime. No one was charged, let alone convicted for leaking her identity, for that reason. Second, Libby wasn't the source of the leak. Richard Armitage was. He admitted it later...and got a total pass from the media for being someone besides Libby. http://bit.ly/fe00g7

Libby was convicted of lying to investigators...nothing even remotely resembling treason.

Edit: Here's a pretty good summary of the facts in the case, which differ quite a bit from the false conventional wisdom: http://bit.ly/f93vvX

Last edited by danwismar on Sat Jan 15, 2011 9:44 pm, edited 1 time in total.

"I believe it is the nature of the human species to reject what is true but unpleasant and to embrace what is obviously false but comforting." H.L. Mencken

Cerebral_DownTime wrote:I didn't say she was covert, I said classified, which she was.

Whatever...my point stands. No crime was committed when her identity was leaked. It was widely known she was CIA, and public information that she was Wilson's wife. She reported for work at Langley every morning. Read link above.

"I believe it is the nature of the human species to reject what is true but unpleasant and to embrace what is obviously false but comforting." H.L. Mencken

I just have to say that i've been really enjoying saying the term "certifiable weirdo". I used it to refer to the pizza guy, gas station clerk, and the man/woman thing that works the front desk at the vet we use.