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Prepared for destruction. Can we really be blamed?

Can we really be blamed? The Bible is full of passages that describe how God favors some people over others and decides in advance who will be allowed into the kingdom of Heaven. Since, the only alternative to spending eternity in Heaven in the Bible is spending eternity in Hell, it can be assumed that God also predestined people to burn in hell, by not selecting them for Heaven.

I hope my Christian friends and family's fun in Heaven won't be ruined by the knowledge that a loved one is being tortured, but I guess it's as they say, "Out of sight, out of mind." I've heard many Christians tell me that it is God's desire that everybody be saved and go to Heaven, but because of free will people choose to reject him and seal their own fate, as if anybody would deliberately choose eternal suffering.

Romans 9:18-23 (NIV):

Therefore God has mercy on whom he wants to have mercy, and he hardens whom he wants to harden. One of you will say to me: "Then why does God still blame us? For who resists his will?" But who are you, O man, to talk back to God? "Shall what is formed say to him who formed it, 'Why did you make me like this?' "Does not the potter have the right to make out of the same lump of clay some pottery for noble purposes and some for common use? What if God, choosing to show his wrath and make his power known, bore with great patience the objects of his wrath—prepared for destruction? What if he did this to make the riches of his glory known to the objects of his mercy, whom he prepared in advance for glory.

I am not making this shit up. This verse just suggested that God prepares people to be destroyed as objects of his wrath, so that the people that he chose to save will see his glory. Does that mean that the punishment of Hell exists so that the reward of Heaven looks better?

If God predestined people to go to Hell, then is a person's free will really a factor? If he chose you, then the choice was never yours to believe. He created you to believe. If he predestined you to Hell, then the choice was never yours to believe. He created you to be skeptical. The Bible said, "God has mercy on whom he wants to have mercy, and he hardens whom he wants to harden."

Mark 4:11-12 (NIV):

[Jesus] told them, "The secret of the kingdom of God has been given to you. But to those on the outside everything is said in parables so that, "'they may be ever seeing but never perceiving, and ever hearing but never understanding; otherwise they might turn and be forgiven'"

Well we can't have any of that now! I mean non-chosen people getting the keys to the VIP?

Sadly, if the Bible is true, it looks as though I've been hand picked by God to burn for eternity so that he can show his power to his chosen people. I hope my Christian friends and family's fun in Heaven won't be ruined by the knowledge that a loved one is being tortured, but I guess it's as they say, "Out of sight, out of mind."

38 comments:

I have been saying this for at least fifteen years. If you take these passages as the literal word of god, then god has created a hell-feeding maching. People are automatically born destined for hell. People are born for hell, it is a hell-feeding machine.

The responses I get are the usual platitudes. Nothing new. No one has any legit refutation.

It's always been amusing to mr that John Calvin (who got a lot of bad press down through the centuries) was reviled during the Reformation (and is to this day) because he dared to take the Bible at its word and simply drew the logical conclusion that if God knows all, he knows ALL, which would include where you will ultimately end-up. if this is so, then praying for salvation does no good. God's already put your card in the In/Out Box and that's that.

"Well we can't have any of that now! I mean non-chosen people getting the keys to the VIP?"

The Landoverbaptist.org parody site has this on the top of the home page: UNSAVED UNWELCOME. Elsewhere, it recommends that those who are not already saved should leave the site "and be about the Devil's business." LOL.

Great post! Thanks. I guess I should be happy to know that my non-belief was preordained by god himself. At last I have something to tell my fundy friends when they talk to me about my unbelief. I can just have them read their bible and prove that I am simply one of those people god never wanted in the first place. Unfortunately I don't think that will make them stop 'witnessing' to me.

This is a great post. Actually, Calvinism is a more coherant view than other Christian theologies. For instance, if God "wanted" to save all people, why wouldn't he reveal himself personally to all people, or simply make Jesus' sacrifice all encompassing? It also helps explain why the Bible isn't more convincing, as God could be simply trying to deceive the non-elect. Discovering Calvinist doctrine in my adult years is what caused me to question my faith, because it conflicted from what I seemed to be hearing from the pulpit and what I had been raised to believe.

I really cant beleive I ever thought this God was real,not to mention loving and accepting.He sounds like some bratty little kid who picks and chooses his friends based on how they look or something and then dumps them when he wants new ones.He looks nice and accpeting if you read certain verses only,and sadley that what people do.

This isn't about an inability to share their faith. You're regarding it as a mere difference of opinion. It goes far beyond that. This is a belief system so vile, so obscene, that it hasn't the right to exist. Piper is a man who is perfectly comfortable with the idea that billions of human beings, including, possibly, his own children, will be tortured unimaginably for all of eternity. He doesn't have a problem with it, and he represents millions of like-minded souls.

Belief in christ has done more damage than good. It is still damaging the world as christians refuse to try to try to save this world because they are waiting to be taken at any moment to a better one.

In very small ways, I have changed a few lives for the better and continue to try to do so. My kids are doing the same.

My dear friend, I believe the greatest mistake most christians make when reading Romans 9 is never reading Romans 10:1-4:

Romans 10:1-4 Brethren, my heart's desire and prayer to God for Israel is that they may be saved. 2 For I bear them witness that they have a zeal for God, but not according to knowledge. 3 For they being ignorant of God's righteousness, and seeking to establish their own righteousness, have not submitted to the righteousness of God. 4 For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to everyone who believes.

Paul's point is often misunderstood in Romans 9. From reading Romans 9-11 we learn that paul is dealing with a specific question: "If the Jewish people are God's chosen people then why are they going to hell?"

Romans 10:1-4 is clear: They have chosen to pursue righteousness through the Law instead of their Messiah: Yeshua the Messiah.

This shows us two things: 1) "Chosen" does not equal "going to heaven," (2) the common traditional interpretation of this passage you are representing is flawed.

I too have an issue with this theology. But it appears we have both reacted in two different ways. I have sought the truth and still believe. You have accepted a common Christian misnomer and have been lead astray.

Josiah Bisbe: "I have sought the truth and still believe. You have accepted a common Christian misnomer and have been lead astray."

So, let Me get this straight: You accept one of two contradictory sets of mythology from a book that contains zombie rabbis, flashmobs of spectral horsemen, a magic Boat of Holding, and a Talking Snake™...

I agree. I go to Bible College and wonder why he saved me the way he did. I mean I deserve to go to Hell for my sins but he showed me mercy. It frustrates me. However you have it wrong those that are hardened by sin he hardens more. They love their sin more than God or their neighbor as themselves. It is GRACE. That the sinner wants to be set free of his sins to serve the true and living God. But I wonder the same those are difficult passages to deal with. Be Blessed.Drew

Ain't no such thing as sin. Religion cult leaders invented sin so they could capture your mind and hold it hostage by telling you they know how to cure it.

That way they can get you to work and give them money, while all they have to do is get up in front of the congregation and spout a bunch of gobbily gook that when looked at with a rational mind makes no sense whatsoever!

Do yourself a favor and quit wasting Mom and Pops money in bible college and get a job.

If you must go to college, study history, ancient religions, mythology, and learn how Christianity was pieced together from parts of older religions, including the blood sacrifice, on a cross, to God of a half mortal, half God, son of God thing thing.

Do you really think that a power that can create billions of galaxies in the blink of an eye would need, or want, anyone sacrificed to it?Dano

So that who part about forgiving others doesn't apply to God? Do unto others as you would have them do unto you...unless you are god then you can do whatever you want to whoever you want and its all good. The golden rule for god is DO AS I SAY, NOT AS I DO.

You are a finite, limited being. It is not within your power to inflict harm of large enough magnitude to warrant an infinite amount of suffering in recompense.

If it were ever just that your evil deeds, however terrible could merit an eternal damnation then so could even the smallest sin. Be it genocide or jaywalking, in both cases is the punishment infinitely larger than the crime, neither is more or less just.

That simple statement of math, that the finite evil you are capable of can never be proportionate to the infinite punishment you receive, destroys forever any possibility of a just god allowing Hell.

The universe is 13 billion years old. We evolved from monkeys. Get a grip. Get a life. There is no god. Read Dan Barker's book "Godless". Switch majors and go with a real job and a real career instead of following that drivel they are teaching you at Bible college.

God is imaginary. There is no hell. There is no heaven. It isn't so bad. I have found peace without god. Don't spend years of your life on the imaginary when you could be living in the real world.

- an invisible, conscious being exists, and that this being will suspend the laws of nature in your favor if you ask it to

- snakes, donkeys, and vegetation speak the human language(Hebrew)

- bats are birds; the earth is a flat circle and geocentric; leprosy can be cured with bird's blood; cadavers can walk; virgins can conceive a child

- "justice" is having someone else pay your debt.

- the world is ending soon and it is a "good" thing

Let me tell you something, even if you acheive an "A" in such a school, you have acheived an "F" in reality.

"[...] wonder why he saved me the way he did."

No one has "saved" you from anything. You simply inherited the family belief that you are born worthless and in need of "saving".

"I mean I deserve to go to Hell for my sins but he showed me mercy."

The word "mercy", in terms of Christianity, isn't about kindness for kindness' sake; it's about FAVORITISM. That's right---we're born CONDEMNED, and your biblegod "saves" only those who are Christian(believers).

"It frustrates me."

But not enough that you'd consider that what you believe is simply wrong.

"However you have it wrong those that are hardened by sin he hardens more. They love their sin more than God or their neighbor as themselves. It is GRACE."

Memo: There is zero objective confirmation for the philosophies you are peddling, including "sin". Thus, what you've just regurgitated, above, amounts to begging the question.(logical fallacy) This is where one simply comes along and assert his or her premise true within their argument.

As an ex Christian- I just gotta point this out- the bible passage is actually *true*. Not because I believe, And I am certainly not going to spew biblical nonsense at anyone like a monkey throws crap at the zoo...

But in a practical, real world sense- it's happened to me, and it's a true statement.

I had a life set out that was going to be (for me)- perfect. I found a woman I fell in love with and would have stayed that way for the rest of my life, I was working towards a job that I could use to further myself and my talents to something really good...

And it was all TAKEN. The woman- married someone else. The job? Every attempt I made to get it- everything I did, tried, attempted, planned- it blew up in my face. I've been single for 22 years- on disability, because the string of jobs I did end up taking ruined me badly. What's worse... the failures I endured and the loss of the woman are actually fodder for nonstop mocking by forces I cant even begin to understand (and oh yes, I have *tried*.) Prayer did nothing. Church people were about as helpful as whacking a hornet's nest with one's head while stark naked. The Babble? I can read Japanese model instructions (and I cant read Japanese!) and get more comprehension. Must be the diagrams. :-P

I was literally thrown down and stomped on, and for lack of any better term: *hardened*. Well before I had a chance to really screw up.

Great post! Thanks. I guess I should be happy to know that my non-belief was preordained by god himself. At last I have something to tell my fundy friends when they talk to me about my unbelief. I can just have them read their bible and prove that I am simply one of those people god never wanted in the first place. Unfortunately I don't think that will make them stop 'witnessing' to me.

In the Christian tradition that I was raised in predestination was considered heretical. But here we have undeniable proof that is what the verses were saying. I guess we just glossed over those ones when reading and the never mentioned them again.

This just shows that a mythical book with almost 800,000 words in it can be construed to teach just about anything you could want it too, especially if you ignore the verses that contradict you. It seems like cherry picking and religion go hand in hand at every turn in the road.

When people start talking about the atrocities in the bible they usually point to events such as the slaughter of the Midianites in Numbers 31, but the inventor of that particular genocide was a pussycat compared to some of the authors of the New Testament. This needs to be pointed out, so thanks.

Excellent post! I am reminded of the numerologists who go through the bible taking every umpteenth letter and find stretches where this process yields startling "information." Of course, this is practically inevitable because there are so many possible codes (umpteen+1, umpteen +2, umpteen-1, etc) and somewhere within this huge string of letters there will be a few strings of actual words - it's called probabilities. Of course, the same thing has been done with modern novels. As you have shown, in a huge book with many different authors, you can find whatever message you go looking for...and ignore whatever you don't like, as ayhwh said.

There are a whole bunch of reasons to discredit the Bible as divinely inspired, but, as you point out, the internal consistencies alone should be enough for anyone who has not been thoroughly indoctrinated. Nice post. Thanks.

A few years ago, while I was making my final steps out of christendom, my brother (the Charismatic Pastor) and I were talking. I had asked him many questions along the lines of why, after trying so hard to know God, for so long of a time, did god not reveal himself to me.

He finally said, "I guess you are just not one of the chosen!" WTF?

I really don't think I can be blamed for 'backsliding', when after 40 years of seeking god thru his son jesus, I was left out in the cold with the other 'non-chosen', common pots!

"Well we can't have any of that now! I mean non-chosen people getting the keys to the VIP?"

The Landoverbaptist.org parody site has this on the top of the home page: UNSAVED UNWELCOME. Elsewhere, it recommends that those who are not already saved should leave the site "and be about the Devil's business." LOL.

There are allot of Christians that seam to think that on judgement day they will sit on top of gods shoulders cheering him on and telling him things like "ah well all in a days work, gotta throw those people who did not believe into the lake of fire."

There are allot of Christians that seam to think that on judgement day they will sit on top of gods shoulders cheering him on and telling him things like "ah well all in a days work, gotta throw those people who did not believe into the lake of fire."