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I think the main question is, with the advent of DNA sampling, was there any reason to label the Eastern cougar a different subspecies? Would the DNA findings show that the Eastern cougar is really no different than a W. cougar, or a Florida cougar?

__________________"I dont call that evolution, I call that the survival of the fittest." - Bulletmaker
"I thought skeptics would usually point towards a hoax rather than a group being duped." - makaya325
Kit is not a skeptic. He is a former Bigfoot believer that changed his position to that of non believer.- Crowlogic

I think the main question is, with the advent of DNA sampling, was there any reason to label the Eastern cougar a different subspecies? Would the DNA findings show that the Eastern cougar is really no different than a W. cougar, or a Florida cougar?

The genetics are inconsequential to the main issue and topic of the declaration. The 110-page review paper already addresses the conflicts and controversies of cougar taxonomy. It makes no difference if the "Eastern Cougar" is a valid subspecies, or not. The EC is not defined (and never ever was) by its genotype. It is defined by its historic breeding and population range. This creature has been documented since colonial times.

The Eastern Cougar was extirpated from its range. All attempts to locate any Eastern Cougars have failed. The end result of the most recent plan to evaluate the status of the animal has resulted in the conclusion that it is extinct.

Folks may not properly understand the situation if they don't actually read the 110 page review report.

__________________Bigfoot believers and Bigfoot skeptics are both plumb crazy. Each spends more than one minute per year thinking about Bigfoot.

There are definitely cougars in the south east. Maybe by extinct they meant, hard to find and rare. I think it was in 2008 someone shot one here in Georgia. I personally have seen tracks. (though it was about 4 years ago) I thought extinct meant none left alive. Kind of wonky they made such a declaration if you ask me.

No, extinct means extinct - not rare. You have to actually read the report to understand. The Florida subspecies is accounted-for in the report. That subspecies is not being confused with the Eastern Cougar defined in the report.

The declaration is fully grounded scientifically.

__________________Bigfoot believers and Bigfoot skeptics are both plumb crazy. Each spends more than one minute per year thinking about Bigfoot.

DNA testing documented that an adult male puma killed in Georgia in 2008 originated in Florida. Given substantial barriers to dispersal, it is highly unlikely that Florida panthers are dispersing with enough frequency out of Florida to establish populations in the Southeast (USFWS 2008); however, prey and habitat are available in Georgia to support a population (Belden and McCown 1996).

The Florida Cougar ("Florida Panther") is not the Eastern Cougar.

__________________Bigfoot believers and Bigfoot skeptics are both plumb crazy. Each spends more than one minute per year thinking about Bigfoot.

There are definitely cougars in the south east. Maybe by extinct they meant, hard to find and rare. I think it was in 2008 someone shot one here in Georgia. I personally have seen tracks. (though it was about 4 years ago) I thought extinct meant none left alive. Kind of wonky they made such a declaration if you ask me.

If it helps to clarify, think of the term "Eastern Cougar" as descriptive of an indigenous breeding stock that was once endemic to the eastern US. It has been nearly 80 years since there was any solid evidence of a sustainable breeding population of that specific lineage.

__________________"Sometimes I sits and thinks, and sometimes I just sits."
- Satchel Paige

"No man should have to clean up after another man's dog."
- Gerald Ford

I doubt there are many lay people who, seeing a cougar in the wild, could tell at a glance (which is usually all they'll get) whether it was an Eastern Cougar or a Florida Panther (no sports jokes). Heck, even taxonomists sometimes have trouble with that one. If I was in Florida and saw one, I would assume it was a panther. In SC, I would wonder how a panther wound up loose in SC.

Oops, I must have skipped ahead, I now see the cougar/panther issue has already been addressed.

Right, the eastern cougar is extinct. That does not mean there are no cougars today within the former distribution of the eastern cougar.

Can an animal be deemed extinct, if it is determined that there was never any genetic reason for it to be classified as a distinct species?

For example, Eastern Cougar and Western Cougar are classified as distinct subspecies, for hundreds of years a cougar found E. of the Mississippi was labeled an Eastern Cougar. If it is found through DNA that there was never any basis for classifying the Eastern Cougar as a separate subspecies, what would be the process for eliminating that nomenclature from the classification? Would they declare the Eastern Cougar extinct? or would they simply say there never was an "Eastern Cougar" subspecies, it was always just a cougar, but found East of the Mississippi?

__________________"I dont call that evolution, I call that the survival of the fittest." - Bulletmaker
"I thought skeptics would usually point towards a hoax rather than a group being duped." - makaya325
Kit is not a skeptic. He is a former Bigfoot believer that changed his position to that of non believer.- Crowlogic

Can an animal be deemed extinct, if it is determined that there was never any genetic reason for it to be classified as a distinct species?

No. Despite what the report says, extinction as the term is currently used applies solely to species. If the taxonomic classification is re-worked and the Eastern Couger is found to be a distinct population of another species at best it can be argued that a population was wiped out. And it really doesn't matter what the Department of Fish and Wildlife report says--extinction=species going away. If the species still exists, the species did not go extinct.

Quote:

The EC is not defined (and never ever was) by its genotype. It is defined by its historic breeding and population range.

None of which matter in taxonomy. Or, rather, none of which matter in taxonomy sensu stricto; there are any number of cases where biologists and paleontologists have named a new species and been in error. But the original point still stands: Unless the Eastern Couger is classified as a distinct species it is impropper to refer to the loss of the Eastern Couger as an extinction. The species still exists, and can repopulate the area. Yes, it will be a different population, but if it's the same species the bruden is on the people saying that repopulation cannot work to demonstrate that there is substantial enough difference between the populations to make reintroduction not viable (this is not because the default is that reintroduction is viable, but rather because once it's established that the cougers are the same species it follows that they fill the same biological nitche and therefore the populations are similar enough to allow for viable reintroduction).

I'm too lazy to read a 77 page report right now, but I guess I need to at some point. The reason I made that comment is it seems there is little difference between the eastern and western cougar. (is there a genetical difference?) I would hope so if it is declared is subspecies. I'm quite curious now as to the origin of cougars in this state. (or pumas if you'd rather call them that) I don't really see many cougars crossing the Mississippi, so do they all originate from Florida? Where did the "eastern cougar" originate? If anyone has read the report, or has that information, I'm quite curious.

I'm quite curious now as to the origin of cougars in this state. (or pumas if you'd rather call them that) I don't really see many cougars crossing the Mississippi, so do they all originate from Florida? Where did the "eastern cougar" originate? If anyone has read the report, or has that information, I'm quite curious.

I'll try to help. All cougars (pumas) everywhere originated from South America in prehistoric times. This was long before any humans inhabited North America.

When cougars began to be scientifically studied and classified the ones living and breeding in (what is now) Georgia were designated as Puma concolor coryi. That is is subspecies of cougar commonly known as "Florida Panther". It had a range including Florida and some surrounding area. Coryi is not the "Eastern Cougar" which was found further north.

The last wild breeding "Florida Panthers" in Georgia were long gone before you were born. Any cougars found in your state now would be wild roaming males from the Florida population, or escaped/released pets.

Below is a map showing former and present cougar range. The dotted lines indicate the former ranges of subspecies. You can see that I have marked two of these subspecies as "Eastern Cougar" and "Florida Panther". The Eastern Cougar is extinct. The Florida Panther now is only located in an area of Florida which represents about 5% of its former range.

__________________Bigfoot believers and Bigfoot skeptics are both plumb crazy. Each spends more than one minute per year thinking about Bigfoot.

The reason I made that comment is it seems there is little difference between the eastern and western cougar. (is there a genetical difference?)

Some scientists who observed Eastern Cougar specimens found morphological differences in the pelage, skull and skeleton that made them distinct from other subspecies. Some scientists saw no differences.

Genetic testing on specimens has revealed Eastern to be quite similar to others. Some scientists say there is no meaningful difference. Some scientists argue that all cougars everywhere are the same species and that there should be no subspecies designations whatsoever. Others disagree.

__________________Bigfoot believers and Bigfoot skeptics are both plumb crazy. Each spends more than one minute per year thinking about Bigfoot.

All cougars (pumas) everywhere originated from South America in prehistoric times. This was long before any humans inhabited North America.

Got any specifics on the highlighted stuff?

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Coryi is not the "Eastern Cougar" which was found further north.

But by your own statement it is the same species. Besides, what (other than breeding range, which for large predators like this is going to be a WAG at best) defines the subspecies?

Quote:

The last wild breeding "Florida Panthers" in Georgia were long gone before you were born. Any cougars found in your state now would be wild roaming males from the Florida population, or escaped/released pets.

And since they're the same species (though admitedly different subspecies) the ecosystem shouldn't care too much about it.

Quote:

The Eastern Cougar is extinct.

No. The Cougar is alive and well. It merely lost a subpopulation.

Quote:

Some scientists who observed Eastern Cougar specimens found morphological differences in the pelage, skull and skeleton that made them distinct from other subspecies. Some scientists saw no differences.

Genetic testing on specimens has revealed Eastern to be quite similar to others. Some scientists say there is no meaningful difference. Some scientists argue that all cougars everywhere are the same species and that there should be no subspecies designations whatsoever. Others disagree.

Welcome to the Wonderful World of Taxonomy. While normally I detest the biological species concept (in fact, I typically detest the species concept in general) in this case I'll give it a pass--if the cougars fill the same ecological niche and could interbreed (and given the obvious amount of genetic similarity I'd argue it's likely they interbred more than people thought) they're the same species, which means they're the same thing.

Let's put it this way: There are obvious differences between black humans and white humans. Obvious morphological differences, obvious genetic differences, etc. If white humans all died out, would you call it an extinction event? (I picked whites not because of any racial thing, but because it can be argued that whites are one population--there's actually far too much morphological diversity among blacks for me to be comfortable dealing with them as a single population.)

Your arguments are a waste of time. Biological and ecology sciences seem to be your enemy.

HA!

Quote:

The Eastern Cougar is gone.
The Eastern Cougar is extinct.
The Eastern Cougar is extirpated.

No. All of the evidence you've presented is that a subpopulation of cougars--a designation that's questionable at best--died out. If you want to call that an extinction event that's fine, have fun, but "extinction" refers to species, not subpopulations. And certainly not subpopulations of such questionable provenance.

I've raised several biological issues here that you've failed to address, not the least of which is your use of improper taxonomic terms and the definition of a species based on invalid criteria (range? SERIOUSLY? this amounts to a geographic species concept, something that only ammonite afficionados think is valid).

Again, if you want to say that the loss of a subspecies is an extinction, go for it. But what's the point? What does it mean? It's the removal of a small portion of the genetic variation of a species. It's the death of a population which could one day maybe have become a species. The real issue is the loss of a top predator, but given that there are examples of cougars given in this thread in that area it's unlikely that the niche will stay vacant for long. Or it'll be eliminated entirely by humans; that's always a possibility.

Of course, a discussion about ecology and the roll of top predators is obviously a waste of time. So is determining whether or not the criteria used for your colloquial designation are valid--because, you know, taxonomy isn't biology. Or something.

Despite Parchers claims that people are not reading the report, I still feel that the delisting was due mainly to taxonomic reasons, and not to population studies.

There are reasons given in the report that point to this.

Originally Posted by Pg 57

Based on recent genetic analysis (Culver et al. 2000), the federally endangered eastern cougar=puma
Felis=Puma concolor couguar subspecies may no longer be a valid taxonomic entity (according to
Wilson and Reeder 2005 the nomenclature P. c. couguar now applies to all North American pumas).

They provide scenarios where the cougar could repopulate the eastern U.S.
Through Canada, through Minnesota to Michigan, etc...

Note this page, lists six subspecies of Puma. Only one of which exists in the United States.

Originally Posted by Pediaview

Until the late 1980s, as many as 32 subspecies were recorded; however, a recent genetic study of mitochondrial DNA[15] found that many of these are too similar to be recognized as distinct at a molecular level. Following the research, the canonical Mammal Species of the World (3rd edition) recognizes six subspecies, five of which are solely found in Latin America:[1]

Argentine puma (Felis concolor cabrerae)
includes the previous subspecies and synonyms hudsonii and puma (Marcelli, 1922);
Costa Rican Cougar (Felis concolor costaricensis)
Eastern South American cougar (Felis concolor anthonyi)
includes the previous subspecies and synonyms acrocodia, borbensis, capricornensis, concolor (Pelzeln, 1883), greeni and nigra;North American Cougar (Felis concolor couguar)
includes the previous subspecies and synonyms arundivaga, aztecus, browni, californica, coryi, floridana, hippolestes, improcera, kaibabensis, mayensis, missoulensis, olympus, oregonensis, schorgeri, stanleyana, vancouverensis and youngi;
Northern South American cougar (Felis concolor concolor)
includes the previous subspecies and synonyms bangsi, incarum, osgoodi, soasoaranna, sussuarana, soderstromii, suçuaçuara and wavula;
Southern South American puma (Felis concolor puma)
includes the previous subspecies and synonyms araucanus, concolor (Gay, 1847), patagonica, pearsoni and puma (Trouessart, 1904)
The status of the Florida panther, here collapsed into the North American Cougar, remains uncertain. It is still regularly listed as subspecies Felis concolor coryi in research works, including those directly concerned with its conservation.[17] Culver et al. themselves noted low microsatellite variation in the Florida panther, possibly due to inbreeding;[15] responding to the research, one conservation team suggests "the degree to which the scientific community has accepted the results of Culver et al. and the proposed change in taxonomy is not resolved at this time."[18]

If current taxonomy does not specify a subspecies of "EASTERN COUGAR" there is no reason to keep it on the Endangered Species List.

Quote:

(d) The factors considered in delisting a species are those in paragraph (c) of this section as they relate to the definitions of endangered or threatened species. Such removal must be supported by the best scientific and commercial data available to the Secretary after conducting a review of the status of the species. A species may be delisted only if such data substantiate that it is neither endangered nor threatened for one or more of the following reasons:

(1) Extinction. Unless all individuals of the listed species had been previously identified and located, and were later found to be extirpated from their previous range, a sufficient period of time must be allowed before delisting to indicate clearly that the species is extinct.

(2) Recovery. The principal goal of the U.S. Fish and Wildlife Service and the National Marine Fisheries Service is to return listed species to a point at which protection under the Act is no longer required. A species may be delisted on the basis of recovery only if the best scientific and commercial data available indicate that it is no longer endangered or threatened.

(3) Original data for classification in error. Subsequent investigations may show that the best scientific or commercial data available when the species was listed, or the interpretation of such data, were in error.

I don't believe the entire species is extinct, therefore it is not correct to call the subspecies extinct, furthermore, current taxonomy does not identify separate north American subspecies. I believe the bolded part three is the correct reasoning for the delisting.

__________________"I dont call that evolution, I call that the survival of the fittest." - Bulletmaker
"I thought skeptics would usually point towards a hoax rather than a group being duped." - makaya325
Kit is not a skeptic. He is a former Bigfoot believer that changed his position to that of non believer.- Crowlogic

I'll try to help. All cougars (pumas) everywhere originated from South America in prehistoric times. This was long before any humans inhabited North America.

When cougars began to be scientifically studied and classified the ones living and breeding in (what is now) Georgia were designated as Puma concolor coryi. That is is subspecies of cougar commonly known as "Florida Panther". It had a range including Florida and some surrounding area. Coryi is not the "Eastern Cougar" which was found further north.

The last wild breeding "Florida Panthers" in Georgia were long gone before you were born. Any cougars found in your state now would be wild roaming males from the Florida population, or escaped/released pets.

Below is a map showing former and present cougar range. The dotted lines indicate the former ranges of subspecies. You can see that I have marked two of these subspecies as "Eastern Cougar" and "Florida Panther". The Eastern Cougar is extinct. The Florida Panther now is only located in an area of Florida which represents about 5% of its former range.

Yes, a subspecies can be recognized by taxonomic authorities. The fact that some people find the process dubious is irrelevant.

Yes, the USFWS has frequently listed under the ESA as threatened or endangered a subspecies of a species that, on the whole, was not in danger of imminent extinction.

The USFWS has also recognized geographic divisions within a species' range that might or might not be listed - despite the lack of a recognized subspecies. I don't think Bald Eagles were ever listed as federally endangered in Alaska, and I don't think there is an "Alaskan" subspecies . . .

Yes, a subspecies can be recognized by taxonomic authorities. The fact that some people find the process dubious is irrelevant.

Yes, the USFWS has frequently listed under the ESA as threatened or endangered a subspecies of a species that, on the whole, was not in danger of imminent extinction.

The USFWS has also recognized geographic divisions within a species' range that might or might not be listed - despite the lack of a recognized subspecies. I don't think Bald Eagles were ever listed as federally endangered in Alaska, and I don't think there is an "Alaskan" subspecies . . .

I'm not questioning whether a subspecies can be recognized by taxonomic authorities. I'm questioning whether taxonomic authorities, can say "There is no subspecies EASTERN COUGAR", and therefore, because there is no subspecies due to taxonomic reclassification, the USFWS makes a recommendation to delist the subspecies.

Yes. I guess I was correct. Thanks for the Bald Eagle seed. The bald eagle was initially listed as two subspecies, it was then determined there was no taxonomic reason to distinguish the two. So the subspecies "Southern Bald Eagle" was delisted, and the entire species was then listed, with geographic population parameters.http://ecos.fws.gov/docs/federal_register/fr183.pdf

__________________"I dont call that evolution, I call that the survival of the fittest." - Bulletmaker
"I thought skeptics would usually point towards a hoax rather than a group being duped." - makaya325
Kit is not a skeptic. He is a former Bigfoot believer that changed his position to that of non believer.- Crowlogic

The USFWS is very conservative in their assessments of endangered populations, I would say overly conservative. In particular I'm of the opinion (after dealing with them on a small number of construction projects) that their geographic ranges are more about politics than biology.

But be that as it may, again, if this is a subspecies of a larger species the cougars can be reintroduced without too much trouble, either naturally via terratorial expansion of existing populations or artificially via human intervention.

The USFWS is very conservative in their assessments of endangered populations, I would say overly conservative. In particular I'm of the opinion (after dealing with them on a small number of construction projects) that their geographic ranges are more about politics than biology.

But be that as it may, again, if this is a subspecies of a larger species the cougars can be reintroduced without too much trouble, either naturally via terratorial expansion of existing populations or artificially via human intervention.

Politics: As in if it conveniently isnt there, it isn't endangered and if it isn't endangered, it doesnt get in way of funding looging projects, and the like. Despite Parcher's apparent reliance in this document, the politic angle is there and shouldn't be ignored or underestimated.

I have heard that this animal (E. Cougar) has been gone for some time. So just now they are declaring it extinct.

It is just now that the Federal government is declaring it extinct. Most of the 21 states of the Eastern Cougar range had already long ago declared it extirpated (extinct) within their border. A few of these states have still not declared it extirpated (extinct). Many of them have laws to protect the Eastern Cougar including those who have declared it extirpated.

The report is full of interesting information such as this. You might also learn that the White-tailed Deer was nearly completely extirpated from the East and that the cougar was dependent on that as a food source.

__________________Bigfoot believers and Bigfoot skeptics are both plumb crazy. Each spends more than one minute per year thinking about Bigfoot.

The last wild breeding "Florida Panthers" in Georgia were long gone before you were born. Any cougars found in your state now would be wild roaming males from the Florida population, or escaped/released pets.

Not necessarily. Western cougars can survive in the Southeast, as the release of a handful of females to help shore up the genetic diversity of the Florida Panther some years ago proved.

It's possible, perhaps even likely, that these cats are finding their way East into the niches left open by the demise of the Eastern cougar. Perhaps not in great numbers, yet, but if coyotes can replace wolves in the East, surely Western cougars can replace Eastern ones.

The USFWS is, of necessity, very cautious about declaring listed species extinct. The generally regarded last accepted date for visual confirmation of Ivory-billed Woodpecker was 1944, but they didn't start proceedings to get the species declared "extinct" until the 1980s. Then the species was reported in Cuba, and Mississippi, and then the Arkansas brouhaha . . . The great rift among the leading Ivorybill authorities ultimately (I'm told) stemmed from one pushing too hard to have the species declared "extinct" in the 1980s while others were still actively pursuing what they considered to be credible leads in the field.

So it's difficult and controversial to declare something extinct. You essentially have to decide that there's enough evidence to proverbially prove a negative.

The mountain lion seen roaming in Connecticut has apparently been killed in an auto accident. Police said a 2006 Hyundai Tucson SUV collided with the big cat around 1:00 a.m. on Saturday on Wilbur Cross Parkway in the area of Exit 55 in Milford.

The mountain lion died due to injuries sustained during the collision, officials said. The driver of the vehicle was not injured.

The 140-pound male mountain lion has been transferred to a DEP facility for further examination. The large cat may be the one sighted in Greenwich on Sunday, June 5.

The Connecticut DEP has been cooperating with the Town of Greenwich Police Department to investigate recent sightings of a large cat in the King Street area of Greenwich. Based on photographs taken of the animal and other evidence it appeared that the animal was a mountain lion.

Mountain lions can travel long distances and may have found its way to Milford, about 40 miles away, official said. There is no native population of mountain lions in Connecticut and the eastern mountain lion has been declared extinct by the U.S. Fish and Wildlife Service. DEP officials have speculated that the animal escaped from a handler or was released...

__________________"Don't be too offended by the likes of him - I hear he doesn't even own ascots." -JoeyDonuts
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"...wing collars are like an ocular violation."-TubbaBlubba

Watch the video which was created before the roadkill. A flurry of sightings. A reliable photo by a school teacher which actually shows a cougar (unprecedented for the East). Tracks found that are cougar (unprecedented for the East). Then bam it's killed by a car. If there really are populations of cougars in the East this kind of thing would be happening all the time.

__________________Bigfoot believers and Bigfoot skeptics are both plumb crazy. Each spends more than one minute per year thinking about Bigfoot.

Watch the video which was created before the roadkill. A flurry of sightings. A reliable photo by a school teacher which actually shows a cougar (unprecedented for the East). Tracks found that are cougar (unprecedented for the East). Then bam it's killed by a car. If there really are populations of cougars in the East this kind of thing would be happening all the time.

So, the only cougar in the state of Connecticut gets photographed, tracked, and hit by a car, and yet, somehow, still no bigfoot roadkill ANYWHERE on the planet, in the entire history of roads and automobiles. You know what this means, of course.....bigfoot is smarter than cougars.

The DEP has been working with the Greenwich Police Department to investigate the sightings of a large cat around King Street in Greenwich. DEP officials confirmed Wednesday the animal was a mountain lion based on a hazy photograph, large paw prints and droppings.

No one will know for sure that the Greenwich mountain lion was killed, however, until the DEP's investigation is complete. Schain said the DEP took some droppings, or scat, left by the mountain lion in Greenwich.

"It's possible we could get something from the specimen we have and compare it to evidence we gathered in Greenwich," Schain said.

__________________Bigfoot believers and Bigfoot skeptics are both plumb crazy. Each spends more than one minute per year thinking about Bigfoot.

And of course, new sightings are being reported. Either we have a bit of mass hysteria or suddenly the extinct Eastern Cougar is coming out of the woodwork in numbers...

Quote:

State officials still maintain a mountain lion killed early Saturday in Milford was the same mountain lion that was spotted in Greenwich June 5 and are downplaying reports of a second mountain lion in the area after a pair of reported sightings in Greenwich Sunday.

"With little or no fresh evidence to the latest sighting, DEP continues to believe the animal killed in Milford early Saturday morning was in fact the animal last seen in Greenwich," Susan Frechette, Deputy Commissioner of the Department of Environmental Protection, said in a press conference Monday afternoon.

Frechette said officials are leaning towards the theory that the deceased mountain lion was a captive lion.

"We are at this point assuming the animal killed in Milford Saturday was a captive animal," Frechette said.

__________________Bigfoot believers and Bigfoot skeptics are both plumb crazy. Each spends more than one minute per year thinking about Bigfoot.

Watch the video which was created before the roadkill. A flurry of sightings. A reliable photo by a school teacher which actually shows a cougar (unprecedented for the East). Tracks found that are cougar (unprecedented for the East). Then bam it's killed by a car. If there really are populations of cougars in the East this kind of thing would be happening all the time.

Its Greenwich, its some rich guy's pet, released or escaped. Anything actually living in CT would be in the Northwest corner, if they're there at all.

Actually it was ab AMC Eagle, driven by a Bigfoot, wrong extinct bird.

__________________"I dont call that evolution, I call that the survival of the fittest." - Bulletmaker
"I thought skeptics would usually point towards a hoax rather than a group being duped." - makaya325
Kit is not a skeptic. He is a former Bigfoot believer that changed his position to that of non believer.- Crowlogic