That's fantastic, Ledgemoor - I am so happy for you and DW. (Isn't it amazing how the body affects the mind, like the pheromone thing you mentioned? Fearfully and wonderfully made, indeed.)

I don't have anything as good to update on - DH finally saw an endocrinologist on Friday (supposedly one of the best in this area). He pronounced DH's testosterone level (total 524, free 102) as "robust" for a 51 year old man. I wanted to tell him that I refute that idea, that the levels would be more "robust" at around 700-800, but hey, I'm not a doctor, I just play one in my mind. He did order more in-depth blood tests, including additional testosterone levels, but said "he really didn't expect to find anything wrong with any of them". (Results will be in on Wednesday.) Basically, he totally shut down the idea that DH's hormones have anything to do with his low drive and ED. I was at the appointment with DH, and I felt like the biggest FOOL sitting there. Nothing boosts a gal's self-esteem more than sitting in an office with 2 men, discussing how she's apparently not very sexually attractive.

He asked if DH snores, which he does, and HAS all his life, and decided that DH needs a sleep study for apnea, because apnea can cause ED. OK, two things I find troubling about this theory: One, I was diagnosed with sleep apnea myself about four months ago, and as we all know, MY drive is A-OK and then some. Two, DH has snored (and therefore slept like cr*p?) his entire LIFE, and this never led to low drive or ED until recently. The doctor also went on to praise Viagra, telling DH how well it works. Well, yes it does, but as I told this doctor, what good is it to give a man an erection but not the desire to use it?? My DH's drive is so low, he's not even compelled to TAKE the Viagra unless I specifically ask (beg, whine) for some attention.

The saga continues.........

(Edited to add - this post put me in a "Queen" bed! Like I need any more room to roll around on TMB - taking up enough space as it is! )

"When you love them, they drive you crazy - because they know they can." (From the 1987 movie "Moonstruck", written by John Patrick Shanley)

OldMarriedLady wrote: I was at the appointment with DH, and I felt like the biggest FOOL sitting there. Nothing boosts a gal's self-esteem more than sitting in an office with 2 men, discussing how she's apparently not very sexually attractive.

OldMarriedLady wrote: I was at the appointment with DH, and I felt like the biggest FOOL sitting there. Nothing boosts a gal's self-esteem more than sitting in an office with 2 men, discussing how she's apparently not very sexually attractive.

What????Please explain

Oh dear - I didn't mean that as literally as it came out. What I meant was, the whole purpose of the visit was to hopefully get to the bottom of why my DH does not desire me, and since the doctor was dismissing any kind of medical or hormonal possibilities, it just made me feel that it is still somehow my fault, that there's something wrong with ME since there's (allegedly) nothing wrong with DH. I felt very embarrassed for having implied that there could be a medical reason for DH's disinterest, when the two of them seemed to think not. Also, I kept having to steer the conversation away from DH's erectile dysfunction, which the doctor kept focusing on, and back to DH's lack of desire. So I had to keep bringing up examples of how he is not as interested in me as I would like him to be. Also, DH didn't indicate in any way to the doctor that he himself is distressed about his lack of desire, so that just further made me feel like I'm the old ugly shrew who dragged him to the doctor's office because I'm not getting enough. It was just very embarrassing and discouraging.

"When you love them, they drive you crazy - because they know they can." (From the 1987 movie "Moonstruck", written by John Patrick Shanley)

But look, it's not you that's the problem. Don't think that for a minute. (Maybe you should change your alias to HotOldMarriedWoman ) I'm thinking it HAS to be a physical condition. I'm sure there are women a lot less attractive than you who are getting plenty. You don't sound like you totally let yourself go or anything like that. And even if you did, a normal guy is gong to want sex -- if we're horney enough even Jabba the Hut's mother will look good. Apparently he isn't using porn, masturbating on the QT, etc. Just because the doctor can't find anything doesn't mean there isn't a problem.

It could be stress or mental, but even when I am [ticked] at DW, I could still perform.

With me, DW and other women for that matter looked attractive. I wanted to do it, but just couldn't get it up.

The doctor should check the normal hormone and thyroid stuff, but also DHEA (needed to make testosterone, as I recall), and AM & PM Cortisol. Vitimin D is important too, and unless he spends a lot of time outdoors, he is probably low. They tested DW for it, and sure enough, she was low. The test is expensive, so the doctor told me just to take 5000IU/day. They recently upped the RDA for the stuff.

He should take a good multivitimin without iron, extra calcium and magnesium, 50 mg of zinc in addition to what the multivitimin has. Zinc slows conversion of testosterone to estrogen. Allow a month or 6 weeks -- chances are he will start feelinga little better at least.

I'm also concerned about the alcohol. Would he be willing to go without for a month or two and see if it helps?

Not wanting sex or ED isn't reason to deprive a spouse -- his fingers and mouth are OK, right? If Viagra works, then he should take it for your benefit. I think sex is the sort of thing that the more you do it, the more you want it. I think even after starting the testosterone, I feel it took me a few times to get back in the groove. Speaking of pheromones, we don't use any perfume or cologne, and I like her to shower 1-2 hours before sex as opposed to immediately before. Every little bit helps, right?

Praying for both of you.

Everything you ever wanted in life is just outside your comfort zone (Jamie Lee Curtis)

Well, I've always thought I looked pretty average, and I don't want to be vain, but I don't think I look half bad. I don't wear makeup, maybe that's a problem. I've never liked the feeling of makeup on my face, especially lipstick. I stopped wearing it after DD was born because it was just too much work and I got tired of worrying about whether it was still on right, or had it smeared (mascara always got smudged from laughing - my eyes tear up), or did I need to touch it up. I started wondering why I had to wear makeup and he didn't LOL. I figured he could love the face God gave me just like I love his. Then again, I've been bare-faced for 20 years now and he never had a problem with desiring me until recently.

ledgemoor wrote:Not wanting sex or ED isn't reason to deprive a spouse -- his fingers and mouth are OK, right?

See this post: viewtopic.php?f=94&t=41490&start=40#p689246 - fingers and mouth aren't doing so well right now (he's not interested in learning how). It's incredibly difficult to get him into the bedroom with me (except to sleep) - if he's not horny, he's not thinking about whether I might be, and it doesn't occur to him that he could "help me out". We had a pretty big bust-up about this a week or so ago.

ledgemoor wrote:I'm also concerned about the alcohol. Would he be willing to go without for a month or two and see if it helps?

He made it about a week and a half without drinking after his GP and I asked him to stop. He is pretty much in denial about how much he drinks anyway. At the endo appointment he told the doctor he "doesn't drink at home" - Um, what about that glass of wine with dinner almost every night? What about that 100 year old scotch on the rocks while you're watching the Military channel? Those beers that you drink while you're doing yard work? Hello? All of his hobbies and social activities are very "macho" and very much tied in with drinking, either during or afterward. I think he's afraid to just order something alcohol-free because he'll look like a wuss or something. He never drinks to excess and I have only seen him acting really drunk a handful of times during our marriage (usually at weddings LOL). On the other hand, he has drank at this level all our married life and it never affected his plumbing before. Maybe it's a combination of old age and booze now.

ledgemoor wrote:I was just wondering, did they check his estrogen levels? I think high estrogen could explain the ballpark-normal testosterone levels yet lack of sex drive.

This is exactly what I thought of too, especially with him acting so "woman-y" the past year or so. I pointed out to both he and the endo that he is getting "moobs" too, which DH didn't think looked unusual. I made a point to ask the endo to check him for estrogen.

ledgemoor wrote:The doctor should check the normal hormone and thyroid stuff, but also DHEA (needed to make testosterone, as I recall), and AM & PM Cortisol. Vitimin D is important too, and unless he spends a lot of time outdoors, he is probably low.

He should take a good multivitimin without iron, extra calcium and magnesium, 50 mg of zinc in addition to what the multivitimin has. Zinc slows conversion of testosterone to estrogen. Allow a month or 6 weeks -- chances are he will start feeling a little better at least.

The endo did mention Vitamin D. DH does spend an awful lot of time outdoors with all the hunting and fishing. Still, it couldn't hurt for him to take a supplement or two. Problem is - he "forgets" to take them. He is incredibly whiny about having to take pills. It's like he feels sorry for himself that he has to take so many medications (he's on a whopping FOUR right now - I tell him that there are a lot of people in this world who have to take WAY more than that just to stay alive). When I bought him the L-Arginine a while back, he was all gung-ho for about a week, and then stopped. (He also whined about the size of the capsules and how many of them he had to take. ) He would only take them if I specifically asked/reminded him to. I finally got sick of asking him because I'm not his mother, and HE should care enough about himself (and me) to take them. He has a pill organizer for all his other meds, but never added the L-Arginine to it. I can just hear the b*tching if I give him even more stuff to take. (For a supposedly "macho" man he sure is a baby sometimes.)

I am anxiously awaiting the results of these further tests. (And praying.)

"When you love them, they drive you crazy - because they know they can." (From the 1987 movie "Moonstruck", written by John Patrick Shanley)

HOML, I think the Doc may recognize an unspoken link between desire and ED. Men do not like to fail and not getting it up is a huge failure in their eyes. Taking a blue pill is as much as admitting that you are failing, especially if he hates pills any way. I don't have a magic solution for you. I will say that I drink as much or more than you DH ( and have for almost 40 years) and am still red hot for my DW. I have to take Cialis occasionally but would not want to miss out on even one romp with the sweetie. If I had to bet it would be that the ED is causing avoidance related LD, especially in a man who has a man's man sort of outlook on life.

The Church is the bride of Christ. We're Looking forward to the eternal honeymoon!

I_am_hers wrote:If I had to bet it would be that the ED is causing avoidance related LD, especially in a man who has a man's man sort of outlook on life.

Well, sir, you would win that bet. After months of avoiding the subject, I finally got DH to TELL ME what he is thinking, and that was exactly it. So at least we have a starting point to go from. I still want to address the possible physical causes for his LD because there are so many other signs that he may have a hormone imbalance.

I'm also very annoyed with the endocrinologist's nurse. She called last Monday to discuss test results with DH but he wasn't home, so she left a message asking him to return the call. He called her on Wednesday but was unable to reach her, so he left a message with her. As of today (Saturday), she has not returned his call and it is driving us BOTH nuts wanting to know what the results were. Now we'll have to wait until at least Monday, but DH works daytime hours and can't make or receive phone calls at his factory job. This "phone tag" game is ridiculous. Hopefully she can just fax or e-mail the results to him, although I'm sure she'll still have to talk to him to interpret them and suggest any needed treatment.

"When you love them, they drive you crazy - because they know they can." (From the 1987 movie "Moonstruck", written by John Patrick Shanley)

DW rarely wears makeup -- I'm not sure if she even owns any at present. That's super with me -- I prefer the natural look anyway. I haven't really discussed it with other guys enough to know if I am typical or not -- would be a good poll. My guess is we don't know or care whether or wives are wearing makeup or not. One thing for sure though, we appreciate our wives going out of their way to be attractive for us, even though the results may not be what we would prefer. I get off on long hair, very uncomfortable for her in the summer since her hair is black. You could ask him, or just try some makeup it sometime -- if it gets him hot, it would be a small price to pay.

I counted, and I take 14 pills per day. DW used to HATE to take pills, never took mulitivitimins or anything. With her cancer scare, she's now very religious about taking everything she is supposed to, though. It's a skill -- just put the pills in your mouth and drink, don't worry about the pills, and they go down no problem. You could point out that it would be a good excuse for him to drink more beer

Oh yeah, one injection per week, 1" under the skin. DW has gotten quite skilled at it -- it's not bad, it feels about like a briar prick most of the time. I did myself a couple times just so I know I can if I have to. I'd MUCH rather do that than have to use cream every day.

Anyway, hope some good comes your way -- keep us posted. Praying for you.

Everything you ever wanted in life is just outside your comfort zone (Jamie Lee Curtis)

The results from the further tests are not good. I mean they're good for DH, he's healthy as a horse, but they're not good for me. His testosterone came in even lower this time, 423, but I guess that's just fine for a man his age. He doesn't have excess estrogen, his thyroid is perfect. The only thing they found was a vitamin D deficiency, but I haven't found any information on the web that links vitamin D to ED or low libido.

*begin whining*

I'm so discouraged. I know I shouldn't be whiny and depressed about this, but this means there's no easy fix, no simple explanation. Our insurance company isn't going to pay for us to keep chasing down a doctor who will prescribe anything, and we can't afford to pay for it ourselves, so this is the end of my quest. DH doesn't see any reason to keep getting tested for some phantom "illness" that's all in my head. He doesn't think he HAS a problem.

I guess I'm just frustrated with him for "rolling over" and getting old way before his time. He's only 51, but he acts like he's 81. He doesn't even try to feel any better - he pretty much gave up going to the gym with me (he goes maybe once a week if that), he won't give up his booze, won't watch what he eats, won't take his vitamins - he just sits all night like a lump in front of that TV, and stays up much too late. Yes, he works hard at his job, but so do I - we both work full time, physically vigorous jobs. I'm tired of being the nag, the nurse, the fitness coach, the nutritionist/chef, the events planner, the "mom" who tells him when it's past his bedtime. I want him to care about himself. I want him to care about ME, too.

I was talking to a friend at work today, my age, who recently switched to Wellbutrin for her depression. I was asking her if she had seen any increase in her libido yet like I experienced, and she said she hadn't. She also mentioned that her DH has a really high drive - wants it twice a day and she can't keep up. I asked how old her DH is - he's 63. Old does not equal "dead", despite what my DH thinks.

I am far too young to be in an elderly marriage.

*end whining*

We had a long talk last Friday night (our anniversary) where I thought we had gotten some things worked out between us (his not initiating, his disinterest in learning how to please me orally or manually). I was mistaken. We had one night where he made it all about pleasing me, gave me 40 minutes of his time for foreplay (think of how much TV he missed!), and now we're right back to the same diet of 10 minute, my idea, hurry-up-before-bed, oops-you-forgot-to-take-the-Viagra, lackluster sex once a week. I can't for the life of me figure out why/how he is so thick-headed about our sex life.

TOML (Tired OldMarriedLady)

"When you love them, they drive you crazy - because they know they can." (From the 1987 movie "Moonstruck", written by John Patrick Shanley)

Have you considered asking you dh "What else are you doing?" (masturbating on his own, porn, etc.) He sounds distracted. I know you won't ask it as bluntly as I just did, but the question has to be asked.

It is also possible that his T tests have been misread. Sometimes the Dr. only gives lackluster interest in the results.

By the way, 450 isn't a super high reading. I am in my 60's reading 740. (I also am on T therapy)

There can be so many issues here. I wouldn't leave a stone unturned till I got the answer. There is something else here that should be addressed. You dh should be the one turning the stones. This tells me you need a follow to your anniversary talk. Ask him if he wants to "be the man" or not. At the same time this must be tempered with love. You must assure him that "no matter what", you are his and his only and you will stand with him no matter what you have to face together. When a man isn't performing sexually, he knows it and will be feeling so threatened and fragile that it is killing him inside. He needs your support, just as you need him.

This is all in my humble opinion. Totally open to correction. I do not mean any judgement. I speak this way because I know that most men want the facts right up front, no matter how we react.

424 is pretty low. Libido and the "urge" won't be paramount at that low reading. And a man with T. at that level generally (not always), won't be masturbating or looking at porn, it just doesn't occur to them. They aren't sexually charged and they don't even have those urges. When my DH was at levels between 114-323, the most beautiful naked women in the world could have been doing gymnastics in fron of him and he would probably have fallen asleep. He certainly wouldn't have become aroused.

Thanks, mom210, for the link about Vitamin D. I didn't hear much of anything in the lecture about it's effect on sexual health, but then I did some more Googling and found some very recent studies (in the last 6 months) linking vitamin D deficiency to testosterone deficiency. Apparently vitamin D might help manufacture testosterone. So I will hang my hopes on that for a few weeks.

PK Man, I think mom210's post was directed to me, to link me to that lecture. Thank you for your words of advice. I have been trying to support DH through all of this, because I know it's making him feel bad that he is somehow "failing" me. That's why I want to stop trying to find answers to his lack of desire. I'm tired of being the "bad guy".

DH can't even SPELL testosterone, let alone research it on the internet. He reads at about an elementary school level, so any solution that requires DH to read anything will meet with failure unless I read it TO him, and even then he doesn't process the information very well unless I simplify it. That's why I haven't bothered to buy any of the books that people recommend so much on TMB, like She Comes First. It's all stuff that DH needs to learn but he can't read well enough, and he knows this and is frustrated by it.

Ulysses61, that is SO true - I even started another thread a while back in which I complained that DH FELL ASLEEP while I was graphically describing sexual activity. Unfortunately, 424 isn't low enough to get testosterone prescribed, at least not by any doctors we've seen.

"When you love them, they drive you crazy - because they know they can." (From the 1987 movie "Moonstruck", written by John Patrick Shanley)

thebigfish wrote:I seen a lot of talk lately about HRT for men. I have no depression or lethargy and a healthy interest in sex. However, I am 56 and don't need a screening to know that my testosterone levels are much lower than they were as a young man. Thank God! It's nice to be able to think of something other than sex every 5 minutes. Anyway, it strikes me as unnatural to adjust something in my body that may be occuring naturally and maybe for good reason. For instance, I read that older men have less of a risk of prostate cancer killing them than younger men because prostate cancer feeds on testosterone. I've also heard that regluar sleep, good nutition and exercise can naturally raise T levels. I'm wondering about your thoughts. What have you learned? Are you pro HRT, con or undecided?

HRT should not turn you into a sex maniac unless your using way too much. Obsessing about sex is more about being mature (I think) then your hormone levels.

I think the idea of aging "Naturally" sounds good but think about this in different terms. What are some of the things that often happen as we age? Heart attacks, strokes, ED, etc. No one wants those but its pretty "natural" as we age for them to happen more often. So... We see doctors and we have them treated. Only men who have abnormally low Testosterone levels should be treated. Prostate cancer (From everything I read) is not caused by HRT.

thebigfish wrote:...For instance, I read that older men have less of a risk of prostate cancer killing them than younger men because prostate cancer feeds on testosterone.

True and False!

The longer a male lives the greater the chance of prostate cancer. If the prostate cancer is not aggressive form, chances are good that a prostate cancer patient is more likely to die from another disease, ie cardio-vascular disease, another type of cancer, etc.

Data from the National Cancer Institute.

Prostate Cancer Diagnosis from 2003-2007• Median age at diagnosis for cancer of the prostate was 67 years of age• Approximately 0.0% were diagnosed under age 20 & between 20 and 34• 0.6% between 35 and 44• 8.9% between 45 and 54• 29.9% between 55 and 64• 35.3% between 65 and 74• 20.7% between 75 and 84• 4.6% 85+ years of age.

US Mortality• Median age at death for cancer of the prostate was 80 years of age• 0.0% died under age 20 & between 20 and 34 • 0.1% between 35 and 44• 1.4% between 45 and 54• 7.5% between 55 and 64• 19.9% between 65 and 74• 40.3% between 75 and 84• 30.8% 85+ years of age.

Lifetime Risk - Based on rates from 2005-2007• 16.22% or 1 in 6 of men born today will be diagnosed with cancer of the prostate at some time during their lifetime. • Men had about a 44 percent chance of developing cancer in their lifetimes.• 8.30% of men will develop cancer of the prostate between their 50th and 70th birthdays.

Prevalence• On January 1, 2007, in the United States there were approximately 2,276,112 men alive who had a history of cancer of the prostate.

"Cause of Death in Older Men After the Diagnosis of Prostate Cancer" Men aged 65 to 84 (208,601 participants)• CONCLUSION: The excellent survival of older men with early-stage, low- to moderate-grade prostate cancer, along with the patterns of causes of death, implies that this population would be well served by an ongoing focus on screening and prevention of cardiovascular disease and other cancers.

One of the theories that may be of interest is that the increase in prostate cancer goes hand in hand with the decrease in normal testosterone levels. Once you have cancer testosterone makes it grow faster but the question that begs an answer is does having a low level encourage the start of it?

Medical "art" is trying to juggle all this and more and make sense of it.