Clinician Business LabsAn online incubator for clinician entrepreneurs. A platform to assist clinicians scale and amplify their businesses.

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About Meghan Walker:

Dr. Meghan Walker is a naturopathic doctor and Entrepologist, focusing on the health optimization of female entrepreneurs and game changers. As an entrepreneur, Meghan started and sold her first business while in University and is a Co-founder and past CEO of the digital health media start-up, Bright Almond. She is the host of the Entrepology Podcast, Founder of Entrepology Labs, creator of the women's performance supplement line, Badass Basics and Chief Cheerleader at Clinician Business Labs - a platform to assist clinicians scale and amplify their businesses.

Meghan is fueled by the core belief that when people are well, they can change the world. Meghan views women as natural entrepreneurs, physiologically predestined for creation. She is driven to support them in achieving this potential by optimizing their health and mindset. Meghan has spoken internationally and through multiple media outlets on topics related to women's performance health and entrepreneurship. Most importantly, Meghan is the mother to three little girls, who is raising alongside her superstar husband in Toronto Ontario.

Christine: Hello everyone and welcome to this episode of the 360 HealthBiz Podcast with myself, Christine Hansen, and usually Kendra Perry who is chilling in a hammock in Costa Rica right now. So I got myself another partner in crime for today's episode and we are here with Meghan Walker, and we're going to talk all things business. But first, if you do like our episode, if you do like listening to us, don't forget to head over to iTunes to leave us an amazing review and you can also see the video live or actually not live, but you can see it on our blog, 360healthbizpodcast.com.

And so without further ado, I'm going to present Meghan to you so that you know who we're going to talk to. So Dr. Meghan Walker is a naturopathic doctor and Entrepologist focusing on the health optimization of female entrepreneurs and game changers. So that's you guys out there. Even if you're not a female, I suppose she could still help you. As an entrepreneur, Meghan started and sold her first business while in University and is a Co-founder and past CEO of the digital health media start-up, Bright Almond. She is the host of the Entrepology Podcast, Founder of Entrepology Labs, creator of the women’s performance supplement line, Badass Basics, adore, by the way, love that name, Chief Cheerleader at Clinician Business Labs, watch out for that, we're going to talk more about it. A platform to assist clinicians scale and amplify their businesses. So I'm going to stop there, there's much more to say you can check out the complete bio on our notes, on our show notes. But Meghan, welcome so much to this episode. I'm so excited to have you.

Meghan: Yeah, thanks for having me. I'm excited to be here.

Christine: So I'm really, really happy because Kendra and I, we both love talking business. We really, really do. And that's why that's one of the reasons why we created this podcast because I think it's really important, especially if you're in the health sector, it's different and other businesses, right? It's not like money coaching or you know, other business coaching. It's very, very different animals, so we love to talk to people who've, you know, walk the talk, who have had a successful career and who you know, can share tips with our listeners. Now the first thing that we'll usually do is we share a trick of the trade tool, so something that we love to use in our businesses and I ask, I ambushed you a little bit with this one,

Meghan: Yeah.

Christine: But if there was one that you really liked, which one would it be?

Meghan: Well, you know, I have. I asked if I could have more than one, but I'm going to focus on one. You know, we have a tool that we use in our office and this is a cool hybrid between a health and business and it's called Living Matrix, and Living Matrix is a female run company out of New York. And this is a functional medicine platform and what Living Matrix enables you to do, is you can either have it on the front of your, your site and prospective patients can come and they can complete the questionnaire or you can give it to your patients in subsequent follow-ups. And it literally built out this functional medicine Matrix and where their body is stressed and where it's compensating and it becomes this really amazing tool because then you sit down with your patients, they completed it online, they're told that they get a result, and they can book an appointment with you to sit down and go through it, because. And I understand the functional medicine matrix is beyond the average person.

Christine: Yes.

Meghan: They can't do it, they can't grab strategy from it. And so it becomes this really incredible platforms. So I use it as a practitioner. I still see patients because it's a way of me aggregating data in a unique way, but it's also this really incredible way of bringing new patients...

Christine: Yeah!

Meghan: and creating curiosity. So Living Matrix...

Christine:'There's your problem, now hire me,'it's...

Meghan: Yeah, I don't work for them. I just like it. Yeah. No, it's great. It's great tool.

Christine: This is fantastic. I'm going to add that to the show notes for sure. Living Matrix. And I'm going to check it out, like I've never heard of it before.

Meghan: Oh yeah, no, it's great.

Christine: So there we go. We can stop now. That's fine. No I'm kidding.

Meghan: Thanks everyone.

Christine: Bye. No, literally, I'm mind blown. Okay. I'm going to check it out, people before you head off to check it out, finish and listen to the episode first, but what will happen in the show notes. But Megan obviously, I chose you to be a guest because we love to learn more about running a business, right? And health business is just different and you have successfully created this platform. So I want you to talk a little bit more about that. And also I find a lot of the people that I talked to have invested a lot of money in traditional business coaches,

Meghan: Right.

Christine: Who usually train business coaches, right?

Meghan: Right.

Christine: So, and they find that a lot of strategies just don't quite work. So maybe you can explain why and maybe things that you have found are just different.

Meghan: Yes. So but, if just stopped me because I have this tendency to talk, but my background is as a naturopathic doctor. And, I was, I was drawn to this profession. Secondary to an interest that I had in business. So as you mentioned, I had a business, I had sold it and, and I grew up in a fairly entrepreneurial family, so that was a given that I was going to go into that field and then I discovered naturopathic medicine and I was like, 'oh, so such a smart way of thinking.'

Christine: Juicy.

Meghan: Right, and so I couldn't, I couldn't shake it. So I was like, all right, fine, I'll go. [inaudible] I went through this through this lens and, and I set up a practice and we started to build that practice, and we tried a few things and some things worked and some things didn't. But, you know, one of the things I realized early on in, in my career is that I had a profession where I understood why everyone needed me, but consumers in turn did not understand why they needed to come and see me.

Christine: [inaudible] Yes.

Meghan: Right? So when you have a business where your service is incredibly valuable and your level of responsibility and, education means that you're going to command a certain price point, but then consumers have no idea why you're valuable. You're marketing costs are so disproportionate. And so what it did is it created this, this landscape where I was like, man, we've got all these incredible practitioners with a body of knowledge that could truly transform healthcare and they don't know how to talk to consumers because there's this complete disconnect. And I was sort of fascinated by it, and I was also really frustrated for my colleagues just because I was like, I have really incredible clinician colleagues who could be really transforming the health of people and they don't, they don't know what to do. And so I sold my practice to my business partner five years in and I decided to establish a micro-practice myself. But then I was like, I want to look at how we can expand access to consumers to practitioners. And so really went deep on that to understand what people were doing well, what people weren't doing well. For me, my own. I had, I had some natural knack with respect to business in my back pocket and started to do some strategy work with practitioners. And I consider myself more strategist than a coach.

Meghan: Yeah.

Christine: And my area of expertise is really understanding how do we create expandable, scalable practices for practitioners that don't deplete them, that doesn't mean they're treating more time for hours. And doesn't always mean they're going online.

Christine: Oh, I have tears like in my eyes.

Meghan: So wait, but you asked what's different, right? And I have practices where like I need people to stop telling me that I can only exist in the online space because they're like, 'I want to see people, but I'm burning out.' So we build these really interesting hybrid programs where they can leverage the online space and in-office space we helped them create transformational in-office programs so they can teach to colleagues. So they can either licensed their methodology or they can bring in other colleagues to work in there and practice it, you work a fraction of the time but your whole team is delivering your care model. So we really start to teach people frameworks to expand their way of thinking, because not only do I think we deserve to earn a really great living, but I think that we also, through the use of innovative thinking, we can reach more people. And so it had practitioners all the time, I'm just going to lower my rates to make myself more accessible and I was like, 'you will not do that. You're going to innovate to become more accessible. You are not going to commoditize yourself.' So we just have a lot of different frameworks that we, that we use, we do. We spend a lot of time really helping practitioners understand their worth and value, and then build out a business plan that is unique and different but ultimately helps, helps people. And so we ran a big event here in the fall called, impact lives, and we made a public declaration that by 2025 we want to help 50 million people reach green practitioners,

Christine: Oh my god.

Meghan: which means we have to make a lot of practitioners,

Christine: [inaudible]

Meghan: expand their reach. And so that's, that's what we're committed to doing.

Christine: I think there's so many people. Like personally I have a business model where I would never [inaudible], I would always just work with a handful of clients. That's what I chose to do, but I do know so many people who are like, the heart's desire is to help as many people as they can. Right. So it's, both are fine, you know, both models are absolutely fine,

Meghan: 100%

Christine: but if you ask someone, and I think the typical practitioner that I have in my head, that's probably your client I would say, is someone who has that idea, you know, who has already conformed. So is asking, I don't know, $60 an hour, I don't know. Average. Something like that is working 40 hours, minimum, maybe 40 hours, seeing people a week, but then having all the back work, you know, getting prepped and all that stuff is coming on top of that. So more of a 60 hour week. What is the first thing that you usually tell them to do? Or what is the one step where you say, okay, that needs to be the groundwork before we can do anything else?

Meghan: Yeah, I usually take them out of practice at least one day a week.

Christine: Oh.

Meghan: We just, we just slash it from their schedule. So there's massive trepidation, and then we usually increase their rates by 30%, because we create some innovative ways for people to access them. But we do that because everyone gets caught in this model where they're working in their business and they have no foreseeable way to start working on their business and they start doing it at night once the kids are down and it's like 8 o'clock in the evening and they're exhausted and they maybe poured a glass of wine and then their like, 'I'm going to work on my business?' You're not, like, you're not gonna work on your business, you're gonna look at one email and you're gonna go to bed.

Christine: Yes.

Meghan: So we just take an entire day off their, off their schedule. And I remember the first time I did that for myself, I tripled my income within the next quarter.

Christine: That's crazy.

Meghan: I just honed in on my, on my, on my strategies and I blew through that myth that I need to see more people to make more money because that has a ceiling and you can't burst through it. So, yep. So take people out of work.

Christine: So when you say 'innovative,' like for me, innovative is obviously something new or something that has existed, but in a new way, what would be one of the techniques that you would say it's actually not brand new, but we just do it in an in a way that hasn't been done before? So what would be one thing that you can see in practitioners eyes when you tell them go like, 'oh,' you know, like this 'ting,' mind blown.

Meghan: Right. Well yeah. So sometimes yes, sometimes it's about like reaching more people and then sometimes it's about how do you leverage your existing platform so you're not wasting time redoing the same thing. So for example, I have got some really great colleagues near me and they've thought out these incredible group coaching programs, and if you want to see the practitioner one-on-one, you've got to graduate to the group coaching program first. So they don't have to do months of like, this is what gluten is, and this is how you take out dairy and, and this is what your hormones should look like, you go through the curriculum before you have access to that practitioner, and they're building a community at the same time. So you know, we know that community is so vital and critical to someone's health and so they built that. So these people are feeling amazing before they even walk into the practitioner's office. So the works really easy. Another example would be the utilization of health coaches in a practice. So if you're a clinician and then I see my role as a naturopathic doctor to set strategy for my patients, but I can't be on the phone with them everyday to implement, and it's the implementation that's gonna make a difference for them. So getting strategy based practitioners to start to leverage people who are highly trained in implementation is a game changer for everyone, creates new income streams in it and it shifts things around. So those would be two examples where we can just innovate in the delivery of care and those weren't even technology dependent.

Christine: [inaudible]

Meghan: Technology. Right. And the technology example might be, you know, if we're doing, like a really comprehensive hormonal evaluation or it gut health evaluation, I could sit for an hour and explain it to a patient or I could record a five minute video and uploaded into their patient portal and ask them to watch it and then after bring any questions to the visit. And now we're having a 20 minute follow-up, not a one hour follow up. It took me 10 minutes to create an uninterrupted video and they can go back and watch it. So there's lots of ways of creating efficiency through innovation that's not, it's not expensive, it's just about bringing a creative lens to the stuff we've already got.

Christine: Alright. So I'm going to play the devil's advocate here because I love what you're saying. Absolutely. But I can hear people, you know, have this little voice creeping up, 'but if I have a coach working with me, obviously I can't charge as much because I have to split with a coach or if I'm just going to send that video, obviously I can't charge as much because I don't spend as much time with them.' I guess these are, you know, objections you hear all the time.

Meghan: Yeah.

Christine: Why is that not true?

Meghan: Yeah, I love that question. Here's what that question assumes and where we're stuck, when we're asking that question, the assumption is the only value that you're giving people is your time. And I would say the most valuable thing you're giving people is your strategic thinking and your body of knowledge. And for my patient base, the more efficient I can be in my appointments, the more grateful they are because they've got busy stuff to do. So if I can bring them in and say these resources are already in your portal and as I've linked you to this video and Dah, Dah, it's all there and we're just going to touch base and set strategies, they're like, 'Amazing, thank you.' And I say to them, 'Right now. Now you're going to meet with your health coach.' They're like, 'thank you.' It doesn't cut into my rates. It's still just, it's the same price to come and see me because you're buying my strategy. You're not buying my time.

Christine: Oh my God, this is so true. And it's also your clients, their time is precious.

Meghan: Their time is precious. Yep.

Christine: It's so funny. I have, my program has two different. I have three programs, but basically two of them are exactly the same except that one takes 6 successions and the other is one day, because we do everything in one day.

Meghan: Right.

Christine: One day one starts from 10k because those people are just like, I don't have time for six sessions, you know? So it's just, it's also respecting their time because they are like, I prefer having a Saturday or Sunday where we'll break out into this and you know, work hard and then I have follow up if I need to because they are doers. So it's time, it's just, it's not your time. It's their time as well. So how do you communicate that element? Because I think people, it's not just the practitioners who have this mind-set, right, that it's like the time that it's been paid for,

Meghan: Right.

Christine: but sometimes a certain type of client has the same kind of idea. How do you communicate that strategy is what you pay for instead of time and it is logical, but what would it be like, for example, a sentence or something that you've noticed that when your clients are saying it, their patients actually get.

Meghan: Yeah, so we just. We spent a lot of time really understanding what the outcome is that our patients want to achieve, and then asking the question, how do you know when you're going to be successful? And so when we, when we lay those pieces out in front of them, then we said, part of our methodologies, we're going to build a strategy and we tell them right in that meet and greet appointment, that appointment they're not even paying for where they're just getting to see if there's good alignment. They're like, this is how we work, so we're highly committed to outcome for you and we have two layers of people who are gonna help you, the strategists, and the implementers, and here's why we've seen them be successful. And then at that point if people are like, 'No, I just want to spend three hours with my naturopath.' I'm like, 'Great. I have tons of people I can refer you to. It's not how we work,' and what I've historically seeing, because I get pushed back from new entities, because they're like, 'No, we don't want to say no to the patient,' and they really want to, they want to work on diet with the patient, for example, because they want a reason to bring them back and charge them for another visit. But what I see happening is you have a practitioner who should be working as the strategist, who sees the patient for all the implementation and you can't get through much. So by the time someone's benefits are expired or they've just lost interest in the process. All you've done is take a dairy and gluten and put them on a multivitamin and they're like, 'Ah, naturopathic medicine doesn't really work.'

Christine: Yeah, it's just a generic kind of stuff.

Meghan: Right!?

Christine: It's not.

Meghan: It's really not. It's actually really sophisticated what we're doing. So where we can leverage different individuals to, [inaudible] something like apps to coach, not necessarily health coaches, but where we can use different things to help with that implementation piece. We want to do that because that's gonna, that's gonna make or break patient, patient success and I just don't have enough time to do that.

Christine: Yep. And I find that high quality care is actually a person with a great referral network, you know, saying, 'Look, this is not my boathouse. I'm super great at this, but here is my network and I think this person would be amazing for you.' And that's also I find a sign of being a person of integrity and being a person who has a certain standard in class. Literally. Because you have that network of amazing people and you know what is the most efficient for your client. And clients love that. Clients love to know, okay, well connected Dah, Dah, Dah, Dah, Dah. I get the best care of whatever is possible. Even if it's not like that person itself, which is totally fine. It's much better than the mind-set of I need to keep everything for myself. It's just not worth it. The more you let it go, the more revenue will come in. It's crazy like that. It's like.

Meghan: Yes. Yep. My best referral sources are from people who I've actually never treated, but saw and referred out to other high quality along the line people and they're like. And they just, they just keep sending new people. It's amazing. It's amazing.

Christine: And it's, it's what I say all the time. Also I niche on a certain type of person. Right? So I'm just, my price tag is not for everyone and one of the things that I always say is I don't take it personally if you find it too expensive, right. And that's when people are like, 'Oh, thank you.'

Meghan: Yeah, absolutely.

Christine: But being honest like that, that's what is creating a bond that goes even beyond working with them one on one afterwards.

Meghan: Right. Yeah.

Christine: So walk me a little bit through your process when. Okay. I can imagine that I have lots of people who are listening right now and they're like, 'Oh my God, I want to work with her. I want to know what her company is like, how can I get on board? I totally need this.' So what, what we through the process of how do people get in touch with you, what do you usually do? What would it look like?

Meghan: Yeah. So we have two core, we have two of our core programs that we offer. One is called the first 18, and the first 18 is really designed for is a foundational business program and we originally launched it for new practitioners and it was like, what are all the strategic business things you need to understand from the second you get your license through that first 18 months of practice. And so this is everything from marketing strategy, to financial planning, to operational strategy, because I just want to help people think like an entrepreneur. And so that, that's our, that's our foundational program that a lot of, while we intended for it to be for new practitioners, we have a lot of people who are like 10 years out like, 'Actually, I feel like I never got the basics.' So that's often where people start and then we have, a more advanced program called the clinician code, and the clinician code is a one-year program for practitioners, and we're gonna look at doing a six-minute version, but there's a lot of material to cover. And what we do for practitioners over the course of the year is we help them find their area of authority within the marketplace, and then develop an in office transformational program. And so one of our area of expertise is to work with regulated practitioners who have to work with, with regulators, but how do we help them start to build out strategic programming. And usually the implementation of that becomes a hybrid of an in office program and some elements that are online. But we talked about things exactly like we talked about today. How do we create innovation within tools that you already have within your practice? And what we really want for people to have at the end of that is a full transformational program that they could then choose to license if they wanted to license, that they could grow out within their practice if they wanted to do that. How do we build on residual income opportunities on top of that, but it becomes the backbone upon which we build all these other elements of their practice. So that's what we really look at accomplishing in that when your program. And then I do take on a really small number of private coaching clients on a quarterly basis.

Christine: I love it. I absolutely love it. I have one last question. I know that you have a sweet spot for female entrepreneurs, but you do this for men and women don't you?

Meghan: Yes, I do. So in my, in my medical practice, that's where I work a lot with female entrepreneurs, but in our coaching with Clinician Business Labs, yeah we'll work with everybody. But I mean there's so many women in healthcare now.

Christine: I know.

Meghan: It's, it's, it's amazing. And, you know, I had, when we, when I launched my start-up and we were doing funding and I was flying back and forth to California and I was pregnant with my third child and I, so like I get it and that's part of the conversation that I can have with women is, how do you build up a clinical practice and how do you build up any kind of business while you're also, like, you got little people and, and how do you balance all of that? And, and, it's just, it's another area I'm really passionate about, but it's why I ended up having this conversation with, with women is we're in a, we're in a unique position, where we're trying to build a family and a business at the same time.

Christine: I totally agree. I absolutely love this. I'm going to be very blunt. I have kind of an idea what you did, but not really.

Meghan: No problem. Those are the best interviews, right?

Christine: But we did meet or we did connect through the mindshare group. So everyone is out there who hasn't joined joint mindshare yet, have a look. It's an amazing community, by Jj Virgin and Karl Krummenacher. Is that his name? I think so. Check it out. Made amazing connections there. So that's how we got, somehow got into each other's spheres. But I have to say I'm really, really, really happy that you've been on this podcast because it's completely in our boathouse and inlined with what we preach and how we run our businesses. So this has been phenomenal. So last question, we're going to have everything in the show notes, but when people are fired up right now and they're like, I need this, how do they get in touch with you or your team?

Meghan: Yeah. So you can always find us at our website. It's clinicianbusinesslabs.com. And probably the fastest way to link to that is just through Instagram. And my Instagram handle is @DrMeghanWalker. Meghan with an H. [inaudible]

Christine: That's so interesting. Instagram, huh?

Meghan: Yeah. Oh yeah. I hired through Instagram. We like, we hang out on Instagram a lot.

Christine: That's. See that's like a whole other topic, we need to reschedule. Kendra is huge on Instagram too, like I kind of dabbled around with it but I don't really get it, but yeah. Okay, good. Well it's trade marketing. Obviously, it seems to work. So, okay. I'm super excited. Thank you so much for sharing this wisdom,

Meghan: Such a pleasure.

Christine: like it's been lots of light bulb moments and I just know that so many of you listening this is going to be such a shortcut, like and, I cannot recommend getting help enough, like trying to, figuring it out on your own. It's not worth it. Really get some help and I think you know Meghan and your team, you would probably be amazing at this, so I hope that lots of people will reach out. I love what you shared with us today. Thank you so much. And if you guys out there like the two, then leave us a five star review on iTunes. You can also become a patron of the show. It's all on 360healthbizpodcast.com where you will also find the transcripts and the show notes and the links about everything that we talked about today. So thank you so much Meghan.

Meghan: Such a pleasure.

Christine: And we will be back in two weeks together with Kendra that time. And, I hope you have a wonderful well, Thanksgiving as we are recording this. It's probably going to be later, but you know, then it's going to be thanksgiving, 2019 or 20, whatever. It's gonna be a new one. So I'm happy Thanksgiving for all of you guys and we'll be talking in two weeks. Bye.

Board Certified Clinical Psychologist and Executive Coach, Kristina Hallett combines science and soul for practical, fast results. She uses her decades of psychological experience and down-to-earth approach to facilitate progress and change. Her mission is to bring the latest scientific research to practical application, helping people feel more empowered and productive. Kristina is also an associate professor, speaker, author, and co-host of the Be Awesome Podcast, featured on Mental Health News Radio. She has been featured widely in the media, including U.S. News and World Report, NBC News, Reader’s Digest, Huffington Post, Medium, Bustle, and many other outlets.

Christine: Alright everyone, hello and welcome to this episode of the 360HealthBiz podcast, and today you will have me on my own without Kendra, who is actually lounging in a hammock in Costa Rica at the moment. Bless her, not jealous at all, but I do have wonderful company. I have Dr. Kristina Hallett with me and we are going to talk all things burnout. So today is going to be a continuous education episode for you guys. And so let me introduce Kristina very quickly to you. So she's a board certified clinical psychologist and executive coach, a combination which I adore. She combined signs and so on for practical fast results. Killer combo, the only thing that works in my opinion, she uses decades of psychological experience and down to earth approach to facilitate progress and change. Her mission is to bring the latest scientific research to practical application, helping people feel more empowered and productive. Kristina is also an associate professor, speaker, author, and co-host of Be Awesome podcast featured on Mental Health News Radio. She has also been featured widely in the media, including US news and World Report, NBC News, Readers Digest, Huffington Post, Medium Bustle, and many other outlets. So we are here with a pro. I am super excited. Kristina, welcome so much to our episode here.

Kristina: Oh, thank you Christine. I am delighted to be here. This is so much fun. I love is. How wrong is it that I say, I love talking about burnout and compassion fatigue, right? Because...

Christine: Most of us, we love talking about poop as well, right?

Kristina: Exactly. Yes, exactly. So this is one of my sort of like, you know, Hashtag banished burnout, right?

Christine: Yes.

Kristina: As long as knowledge is power and the more we know and that's so true in all of the work you do. You know, I, I have looked through, we've talked about your work and it's so impressive how you really look to bring in every element of a person's functioning. So I'm thrilled to talk with you.

Christine: Yep, absolutely. And that's what we're going to do today when we talk about burnout. So it's going to be a fantastic episode. I'm really looking forward to this. Now, before we start though, for everyone who's listening, as always, we're going to start with a tech tip and Kristina is actually going to share her favorite app today, and as always, don't forget to surf over to iTunes. Leave us a five-star review if you're like this, if you like our guests, just give us some love and you can also support the show and become a patron of the show. It's all on our website, 360healthbizpodcast.com. So Kristina, Kendra and I, we love geeking out on tech, right, like we love digital business and you have an app that you wanted to talk to us about today. And for those of you who are listening on the podcast, if you actually surf over to the blog, we are recording this and video form and you can actually see her demonstrating this, so just a quick note on the side. But without further ado, let us know what is your secret kind of weapon that you have in your arsenal.

Kristina: Oh, and there's so many of them, so it was a little hard to just pick one. But today I'm going to tell you about an app, and it's free and it's available on Android, IOS, like you name it, you can get it, it's free. And it was ultimately developed in the US as part of the, Department of Defense. It was developed for the military. There's a whole suite of apps and they're all ones that I use. And there's tons of research that went into it and they are completely appropriate for all civilians as well. So I use these in my executive coaching across the board. I also tell my students about them because I'm teaching in a graduate clinical mental health counseling program. So this is number one what providers need, and it's called Provider Resilience. What could be better? So I'm going to tell you what's on it so that listeners can hear, but I really do encourage you to go to the video because some of this you just want to see. Open up the app right at the top is a, it's like a half rainbow, and it's your overall resilience rating. And so for those of you who are watching, there it is. That's the resilience. Okay? Now I have these set up purposely, I have a separate one, so I have two of them. This one I use for demonstration purposes, you'll see why. So that half rainbow goes from low where it's red, because we usually associate red with warning signs, all the way up to green, which is good. Love that. Love green.

Christine: Yep.

Kristina: And so, all of these different components that I'll describe are a part of this app and they make up your overall resilience rating. So right underneath that you can put in, this cracks me up, time since your last vacation.

Christine: Oohh.

Kristina: That's one of the keys for burnout, right? So in my demo, this is not the truth. This is not the truth, but I'm going to tell you that according to the app, since my last vacation, it's been two years, one month, 10 days, 23 hours and five minutes.

Christine: I would die.

Kristina: That would be so bad, right? So not only is that a ridiculous amount of time, but I love the specificity.

Christine: Yeah.

Kristina: It literally counts down to minutes since your vacation. So you can just add in when you're most recent vacation has been and then keep track of it because as providers, that's one of the things that we often forget to do.

Christine: Yeah.

Kristina: We're so busy taking care of other people and hello, we need to walk our talk and do this.

Christine: Yes.

Kristina: So there's a vacation clock, there's also a section called burnout and there's a whole burnout scale that you can do, and one of the tools in this. This is why there's so much to this one app. That's why I'm like, it's just phenomenal. I talk about this in presentations I give across the US and internationally and literally people are pulling out their phones and downloading it because it's, there's so much in it. So there's something called the pro-qual, and that's the professional quality of life scale. And it's really nice to have this as a measure. It's a nice measure. It's a self-report. It's about 26 questions, and as you fill it out and then scores it for you and you get three scores, you get a compassion satisfaction score, a burnout score, and a secondary traumatic stress score.

Christine: Nice

Kristina: That gives you your overall pro-qual or your professional quality of life. So we know that as soon as you have, and I'm sort of getting into what we're talking about here, but it's all about the app, so tech and talk at the same time.

Christine: Yeah.

Kristina: We have to have some marker, and then we continue to do this and we compare the marker so we can see, are we making progress? Are we doing better? Which one of those particular skills is moving in which direction? Right. And it's all right here. So see down here is the pro-qual. That's, that's the pro-qual. Again, these are demonstrations but each one of them gives you a little rainbow. And it tells you, in this case, apparently, oh this is so bad. It's been 838 days since my last update of the pro-qual. So it keeps you accountable as well.

Christine: Ops.

Kristina: I know, but again this is for demonstration, so I'm aloud.

Christine: Yeah.

Kristina: Now it has another section called Resilience Builders and Resilience Killers. And so it's got examples. And so examples of resilience builders are, did you take a short walk?

Christine: Yeah.

Kristina: Did you perform at debts? Stretching or isometrics? Things like that, and you can put in your own something that you've identified as a resilience builder. And then when you go to resilience killers, that you're going to love this. Did you skip lunch?

Christine: Ops.

Kristina: Have you eaten junk food? Did you come to work sick today? Right? So it's got all of those different things, and then it brings you back to your dashboard. Now there's also tools. One of these tools that cracks me up is called, 'Remind me why I do this.'

Christine: Hilarious.

Kristina: You also get a graph of your pro-qual results and a graph of your burnout results.

Christine: Mmhmm

Kristina: And then, my, one of my, I would say this is my favorite, but they're all my favorite. There's a section on physical exercise and what it is, it's the directions on how to do various chair yoga poses.

Christine: [inaudible] I love that.

Kristina: Yes. And as you just simply scroll through, it gives you different exercises and I particularly love this. Overall, my approach for all of us as professionals is that we need things that we can do in about two or less.

Christine: Yeah.

Kristina: And many of these things we can do either sitting at our desk or literally when we take the bathroom break, right? And often there are so many things about counteracting burnout and working towards resilience that we say, 'oh, I just don't have the time for that.'It's going to, like we think about, 'oh, take me half an hour to get to the gym.'[inaudible]

Christine: Change and...

Kristina: Yeah. So know everything that I'm talking about are things that are free. They're accessible, and they're very brief.

Christine: No excuses people.

Kristina: Right. And oops, lost the headphones I want to listen to. So, so this one is super great. And the one caution, that it's not a caution, the one reminder that I give to people, is if you're going to do one of these exercises, make sure you do both sides because you don't want to just turn to one side and forget to turn to the other side. So do both sides. And then the final area in this particular app is something that's called value cards. They're alphabetical, so at the moment what shows up is idealism.

Christine: Ok.

Kristina: And so it has a little text describing idealism, and if I swipe, then comes up independence…

Christine: Right.

Kristina: initiative. So there's another one, so there's a whole alphabet word, integrity, joyfulness. So different values that are important to us as healthcare providers, really important to us as people, but particularly when we're in the business of healthcare, we are some of the worst...

Christine: Yeah.

Kristina: at taking care of ourselves. And I'll use this as a teeny segway because do you know that in the most recent studies in the US on physicians and Burnout, over 70 percent of physicians who are surveyed show at least one of the characteristics of burnout.

Christine: Oh my gosh, let's get going on this because my ears are like, what? So I mean, burnout is like this term that's being thrown around all the time. You know? Yeah. Some people who use it very negatively because unfortunately, you know, it's, a lot of people don't really know what it is. They don't know what it manifests likes, there's abuse that is being, you know, I don't know, in Luxemburg in particular, there's lots of people who abuse it and they just get three weeks or three months of work because they claimed to have burnout. So I think it is first of all important to understand what it is and how it manifests, especially either to become aware that you as a practitioner might actually be going down a slippery road or, what I also find uber important, is when we're working with a client and I mean not everyone is qualified to work in that particular area. A lot of us are coaches and I find that it's our duty to know when we've reached our limits, and I find knowing that someone is on their way to a real burnout that's out of our boathouse for most of us. So for me, this is really on the one hand looking at ourselves. You just said how many practitioners are actually well on their way of suffering severe burnout. How to diagnosis or how to get good idea of what this might be going on with my client or when it's time to refer out. So I would love to talk about these areas. I know it is super vast topic, but I know you are the go to person to talk about this, so I cannot wait to soak up your knowledge on this.

Kristina: Oh, thank you. And that's literally one of the things that in my executive coaching I really specialize in because I have the psychological knowledge. So I'm a person who literally others refer to when they get to this place, when things have become too much.

Christine: Yeah.

Kristina: And so I love the fact that we're able to think about this. And I'm going to start off with giving you an example of a time that I discovered that I was burnt out and because it happens, it doesn't happen at the same frequency necessarily all the time, and it's not always obvious, and yet it's something we have to pay attention to. So my big personal hashtag is always radical self-care. Because that means, right? Literally paying attention to what's going on and radical self-care for me means things like setting limits and having boundaries and owning your strengths and knowing when to say no and when to say yes to you, things like that. So that's the talk that I'm always giving to everybody. Here's a day, I drive home, and usually I parked in my garage, and I walked through the garage into my house. As you walk in, there's a long table, and that's where we put the mail and other things that are going to go in or out. So every day in a row I walk in, I look at the mail, I leave things, I move things, it's fine. And usually what happens is the dogs run up to greet me and my husband comes over because he's usually home first and he gives me a hug and a kiss and I say hi and I look at the mail, blah blah blah, you know, normal, ordinary life. So I notice many days in a row that there's like a basically a lot of junk on this table, and it doesn't bother me in the slightest. 'Hi, how you doing? I add to what I take away all fine.'And then this one day I walk in, and as I walk in, the dogs come over, my husband comes over, he's smiling and saying hi. And I look at the table and I look at him and I'm like, 'what is all this mess?'And he's like, oh right. He's sort of gives me that look. And I was like, 'is anyone ever going to clean this? Like what is going on here? Why does this look like this?'And there's a pause. It's just like, 'Oh God, you know what, what is she doing?'

Christine:'What is going on?'Yeah. Lost the plot.

Kristina: And he very gently says, 'honey, I think that's all your stuff.'

Christine: Wrong thing to say.

Kristina: Well actually, luckily because this is my area, right? And we've got to, you know, heal thyself. So I look at him like, 'you're right.'And I thought instantly what is going on? Like this was an over the top reaction.

Christine: Yeah.

Kristina: The scenario was no different than any other day before and yet this. And it wasn't even that much. Like you know it, this is one of those, it took like five, maybe six minutes to put everything away and clear it off. So this...

Christine: But it just triggered. Yeah.

Kristina: Total trigger total over the top irritability and reaction. And luckily we work, he and I well enough together and he knows me and if he says, if he's going to call me on the carpet and hold me accountable without sounding defensive, there's something for me to look at. It was very clear to me, as I looked at it, that I had gotten to a place, because I was loving what I was doing and busy. So it wasn't that things were bad.

Christine: Yep.

Kristina: But I wasn't following the steps that I teach people regarding radical self care.

Christine: Right, ok.

Kristina: And that those little irritants had grown and grown and grown and I hadn't stopped and taken the time to shift the pathway.

Christine: Okay.

Kristina: Whether it was the mess or internally, and so therefore match, tinder, boom. Off I went now it wasn't a bad episode of burden. It was like one of the early stages of that. But that kind of irritability, that's something that is an absolute emotional sign that burnout is going on.

Christine: See, I would just think, 'oh, I just had a back day. I'm a little bit tired.' You know, so I'm actually self-evaluating myself and I didn't have like a trigger like that. But it definitely feel tired and so much going on that I'm like, 'Ooh, hang on, I might need to do some yoga poses here.'

Kristina: Exactly, exactly. So let me just go over some of the different categories of symptoms that we might see.

Christine: Yes.

Kristina: Obviously they, these can account for many different things because you just gave a good example. We know that you’re the sleep expert and so not having enough sleep is certainly something that can contribute to getting some of these symptoms, but not sleeping is also a sign. It's one of the very first physical signs of burnout. So chronic fatigue, insomnia, getting sick a lot, weight gain or weight loss, appetite changes. Those are some pretty significant physical signs. Also aches and pains, a lot of aches and pains are a sign that you want to pay attention. Now if you just have one or two of these, obviously we always want to look to them straight medical first, is there something going on for us physically for anything because we want to rule that out, right? So I don't know if I had pneumonia, for example, or mononucleosis. I might be very, very tired and feeling achy and sick all the time, but in the absence of a known clear physical illness...

Kristina: Right. So one more sort of like, 'oh, just go away, just leave me alone and go away.'

Christine: Yeah.

Kristina: That's again, that's sort of another, to me these are all yellow flags.

Christine: Interesting. Yeah.

Kristina: Right. So you want to think like how many yellow flags do I have?

Christine: Yeah.

Kristina: Similarly, at work, it could be a drop in productivity or forgetfulness, difficulties with concentration and attention. So all of those can be signs that burnout may be going on and we want to pay attention to that because if in fact we're seeing a whole bunch of, oops I just, something went wrong. If we're seeing a whole bunch of those different signs, then accumulative number of those or seeing that over a number of days. So absolutely as you said, anyone can have a bad day, anyone can have a bad couple of days, but when you're beginning to feel this way more as more often than not, or as a regular course, you really want to begin saying, 'hm, let me do an assessment.'That's why I love the Provider Resilience app.

Christine: It's true.

Kristina: Because you can log this and you can sort of say, 'hm, how are things going?'Now one of the other things that we know, is that everybody has this recency bias. So anytime someone comes into my office and I say, how are you doing? Literally they start telling me about the last 48 hours.

Christine: Ohh.

Kristina: The 48 hours are good. They're like, 'oh, I'm great, blah blah, blah, blah,'and then they say, 'oh, you know, a week ago x tragedy occurred, but you know, last few days.'

Christine: I'm fine.

Kristina: Or they've had things go really well, but in the last two days they've gotten stuck or they're struggling and they come in and they're like, 'oh, I feel awful.'

Christine: I get it. Yeah, it's like when my clients come, I've been sleeping well for two months, but the last night I had a bad night and it's like, 'oh, come on.'You've been sleeping so badly before every night, so yes, Yeah.

Kristina: So we want to pay attention to that for ourselves and in our clients. Right? We want to keep in mind that people are immediately looking at really the short term past what's gone on. And so that's why I love tracking, so using particularly tech tools to track how are you doing or how is your client doing, having your client track, doesn't matter and you know what? Your client doesn't have to be a healthcare provider, anyone can get this app. So even though I'm saying 'Provider Resilience' and it was made for healthcare professionals, it works for everybody. That's what's fabulous.

Christine: Yeah.

Kristina: But particularly relevant to the healthcare professional.

Christine: Alright.

Kristina: So we begin to track this. We're like, 'okay, I'm having more and more of these signs. What's going on? What do I need to pay attention to?'And then we need to step back and begin to take sort of an inventory of what am I seeing and how strongly is this feeling? You know? And so remember I mentioned pessimism and cynicism.

Christine: Yes.

Kristina: Right? So I want to highlight those...

Christine: I have the [inaudible] my cynicism sometimes.

Kristina: So and so do I mean I am, I consider myself a realist, although my friends will often also say that I'm Pollyanna, not so I don't ignore the truth. I totally believe in bringing in a realistic view, but I want it to be balanced. So I think our goal is balanced. We don't want to be up all the time. We don't want to be down all the time, right? We want that seesaw to be relatively balanced. So the prime key for me is when you look and you say, am I in balance? Like in general, if I think of the last week or the last month and having data helps, then am I in balance? Or are there more days where I'm catching myself being this other way? So I'll give you an example from one of my executive coaching clients, senior executive. And the reason she came to me as she, she said, 'hey, I think I'm having some real anxiety, maybe going into depression and so maybe I need therapy.' And I said, you know, can we talk coaching first before therapy because like, let's see where you're at, let's assess this. So instead we did coaching and what it was was burnout, and here was her sign, her number, two major signs, one was she noticed that at work, little things were irritating her.

Christine: Yes, I have so many clients with that.

Kristina: She was finding herself being a little shorter or a little more snappy to her staff, and she was really beginning to think, 'okay, how quickly can I retire?'Now this was a young woman. She was not at traditional retirement age, you know, sort of early, middle age. And so literally as she loved what she did, she didn't want to stop it. But she understood that she was feeling irritable.

Christine: Something was happening. Yeah.

Kristina: Yes. And I think one of the things that we do is when we begin to question this, we might go into this other area of, am, do I have an anxiety disorder? Is this depression, anxiety and depression go hand in hand, and we may be feeling more anxious, so she was also waking up and immediately overwhelmed by thoughts of her workday and what was she going to do, and how could she manage it and would get anxious. So she was experiencing anxiety. She was experiencing some of the early signs of maybe like an irritable agitated depression, but she didn't have a full blown anxiety disorder or she wasn't in a major depression. And that's part of that differentiation I think is important because early intervention can make such a difference and so I don't want us to pathologize things and that's what we do. We tend to say, oh look, right, because we're often so critical, so I was fine, fine, fine, fine, fine. And now everything's, everything's blown up and it's awful. And that's where that pessimism and the cynicism can come in, and we are sort of overly negatively catastrophizing how we're, how we're doing.

Christine: Yeah.

Kristina: So the other sign for her was that she would come home and she was too tired to do the things that she said she knew she should. So she wasn't exercising, she had a hard time at making a healthy meal and she'd sit on the couch and eat cookies and basically give herself a hard time mentally about sitting on the couch eating cookies and not exercising. And so literally she was like, I know what to do. Like, you know, I'm not an idiot. I know exactly what to do, but I can't get myself to do it.

Christine: Yes.

Kristina: And so what I said to her, as you know, let's think about this differently. What if we think about this as burnout and what if we say it's at a stage of burnout that absolutely, in a very short period of time, there are some things that you can do, hashtag radical self-care, in order to stop the progression and turn things back so that you're back to loving the work that you love, feeling, that you have energy doing what you need to do to take care of yourself.

Christine: Ok.

Kristina: So one of our very first interventions was starting the day off with laughter. Laughter is the best, biggest hit of dopamine that we can get.

Christine: I love it.

Kristina: Dopamine makes us feel good, right. So she loves, this sounds so silly. She loves funny YouTube cat videos.

Kristina: So now traditionally we would say, don't look at your phone right away. Don't go on media. Okay, that's all well, generally speaking, that's true. As in don't dive into it.

Christine: Don't check your email. Don't go on the internet. Yeah.

Kristina: Exactly. But for her, the minute she woke up, she was flooded with these anxious thoughts about what she had to do and how she didn't want to do it. So we needed to get that to stop right away.

Christine: Not spiral out of control. Yeah.

Kristina: Exactly. Five minutes of silly YouTube videos, she would laugh...

Christine: I love it.

Kristina: and then get out of bed with the energy and the positive mood to face the day.

Christine: I love that.

Kristina: Shower, eat, etc. and later go look at the email. So that's just one example. That's radical self-care.

Kristina: Some other interventions that we used for her, really worked with her on time blocking in her day. So as a senior executive with an open door policy, because she wanted to be accessible to her clientele, she didn't feel like she ever had time that was focused to do what she needed to do and the burnout was inhibiting her focus and concentration. So we talked about, if you think about this as coming from a place of you want to have the most to give those that you work with, you must have a break. And there is so much research in the...

Christine: Yes.

Kristina: peak performance and mindset, literature on the fact that we can only work for a certain amount of time...

Christine: Of course.

Kristina: and then we need a break.

Christine: It's much less than we actually think it is. Like an eight-hour workday it's just ridiculous. You never going to get eight hours of work done, it's just ridiculous. Power naps baby. Yeah.

Kristina: Yes. So we actually need, the research says, and it depends on what it is that you're doing, but somewhere between 50 and 75 minutes, we must take a break. Meaning you can't work longer with focus concentration than either an hour or an hour and a half, sort of depending on what you're doing or what your profession is. And so at about 50 minutes you need to take a brief break. What do we do? We pull up our Provider Resilience app and we use some of those things to rejuvenate us during that.

Christine: Amazing.

Kristina: So again, right? We're talking five minutes or less, and that context switching in that moment, basically reboots your brain so you can go back in with increased focus and concentration. So that's one of the ways we use some time blocking.

Christine: I love it.

Kristina: We also had her set aside some dedicated time where she could in fact close her door for half an hour and attend to those things that were really high priorities...

Christine: Yeah.

Kristina: but that would, right? Again protecting her and saying no, so she could say yes to her to have more, to give.

Christine: Love it. So this is obviously super important when we have a client or when you know for ourselves, you know, if there's someone listening and it's like, okay, I see I literally coach five clients a day for one and a half hours. It's like, come on, you know, how's your brain supposed to do that So I think for ourselves, this is a super important one. Now my next question would be, I know that if you know, you have a case where this person wasn't as mindful or wasn't as open to, you know, get help straight away. I mean, this lady, she was aware, she knew that something was going on and most of the time our clients usually feel that something's not right. What do we do when we have someone? Because if you have a full blown burnout, it's seriously physical incapacitating and it can leave permanent damage. So, what would you suggest? What are some of the signs where you would say, okay, this is actually not just a yellow flag, there's this like orange verging on red. When is it time for a general health care provider or health coach to say, this is not my boathouse anymore. I need to refer this out in order to give my client the best care possible.

Kristina: The things that I see most commonly at that more advanced stage of burnout are an unremitting fatigue, a sense of hopelessness and this negativity or pessimism about the ability to change.

Christine: Interesting. That is a thought I cannot change anyway.

Kristina: Right? There's nothing. It literally comes down to I'm helpless and hopeless. There's nothing I can do. I have to do ABCDE. There's no getting around it, nothing can change. And our thinking, the more burnt out we are. We just talked about a lack of mental flexibility.

Christine: Ok.

Kristina: So the more burned out we are, we're not regenerating and we're not recuperating and so we have narrowed options that we're seeing as what, how we can manage something. So I mean I just think of parents who will say, 'oh, we'll have to take care of my kids and I have to work and I have to take care of the house and blah blah blah blah blah.'And you say, 'well, what if you wanted or what have you left the dishes in the sink overnight.' 'Oh, I can't possibly do that.'

Christine: Okay. So complete inflexibility and, and like not seeing the forest for the trees.

Kristina: Right. And this degree of, it's not even, it's even beyond flexibility. It's often this, huge resistance, and that won't help.

Christine: Interesting.

Kristina: Even if I did that, that won't help.

Christine: See, I wouldn't have known that. So this is super interesting to me, okay.

Kristina: Yeah, so again, we're often using the relationship we have with the person to say, how about, how about you? I'll say like, let's test the hypothesis. Let's do an experiment, right? People love that. People like, all right, right, fine, because we're not gonna. I'm not gonna say, I mean I think I'm right, but hey, what do I know? I'm not you. You know this. So are you willing to engage in a little experiment to see what happens. Now one of the core techniques that we're using to manage burnout aren't really because burnout is about stress and stress management, right? Whatever the stressors are, it's all of that. Stress doesn't have to be bad, but that's a whole other conversation. The power of stress. But when we're talking about in this way, one of the impacts, again, of stress, is that decrease in cognitive flexibility. And stress means that our limbic system and our Amygdala is highly activated. So basically we're on red alert all the time.

Christine: Yeah.

Kristina: That's why we get the irritability. We have a greater startle response.

Christine: Yes. Just on edge.

Kristina: At all. It's almost done. Right, I'm on edge. I can't catch my breath even though you're not out of breath.

Christine: Yes.

Kristina: That feeling like the world is coming down on me.

Christine: Your lungs are just too small suddenly. Yeah.

Kristina: Yeah. So breathing. Now I literally, people look at me and they just sort of roll their eyes and they're like, seriously? Seriously like, do you like have anything better than that? I'm like…

Christine: I know. They want something new.

Kristina: Let me tell you. Yeah. And I'm going to say my techniques fall under another catchphrase. 'Simple, not easy.'They're very simple, but it's not easy because you have to make a commitment and you have to persevere in applying the technique. So it's simple but not easy.

Christine: Love it, yeah.

Kristina: And so really validating that like, this isn't going to be easy, but if you don't want to feel as crappy as you feel, I can change that.

Christine: Yeah.

Kristina: And we start that with breathing. So I'm going to throw in here another little app for you because this is one of my favorites. There's about a bazillion different good breathing apps and I will say to people, 'hey, find one search, find something that you love that works for you,'but the same group that developed Provider Resilience, did this app that I'm going to tell you about, and it's called Breathe2Relax. So it's the word Breathe with the e, 2 the number 2, Relax, also free, totally available.

Christine: Ok.

Kristina: And the reason I love this is it has an audio component, so there's a voice that tells you what to do. You can set the background, so you have a pretty background and you can adjust the length of the inhale and exhale so you can customize it. But the part I love the best is it has a little cylinder that fills up as you inhale and then the cylinder.

Christine: So you visualize it.

Kristina: Exactly, exactly. If someone has an apple watch as an example, there's a that there's a little circle and it gets bigger when you breathe in.

Christine: I love it, yeah.

Kristina: Fabulous. So again, we're talking like you can do this two minutes, two minutes or less when you go for a potty break. So, it also gives you a rate your stress, so you can rate your stress from low to high so you can track it as well is, it's always about tracking. But if I go to this, come on. Alright, I'll just start this and I'll show you a little teeny bit of it just so you can see the cylinder. And again, for those of you who are listening, check out the video so that you can see this because it's pretty awesome. All right, so oops.

Christine: Oh yeah, I can see it. Alright and so now and again, yeah, I love that. So you have this cylinder filling up and basically emptying out again, I love it.

Kristina: Yes. And I picked flower background because it's nice and it's a soothing voice, whatever, but you can set it to whatever you want. So what we know is that all of our sensory memories, good and bad, are stored in the limbic system. That's what the amygdala does. And that's our warning system as well. So when we use additional sensory components, we can help calm the amygdala down even more. So this app in particular, we've got the audio sensory who have the visual sensory, right? Both of those are there as it's guiding us to do the breathing, which is the important piece that we're really trying to do. So it's the breath that makes such a difference. The amygdala in that with the other sensory components.

Christine: Exactly. And that's what I love to tell people is that you are in control. Like your brain, yes, it is incredibly complex, but it's also incredibly basic, and you can control it. It's the best thing in the world, especially if I have people who are like, 'everything's out of control. It's spinning out of control. I'm just a slave to my thoughts.'And it's like, no, you're not. You can use your physiology to literally control your thoughts.

Kristina: Absolutely.

Christine: Which I think is super powerful and empowering really people in so many different ways. I do these things with my clients before going to bed, but this is definitely something super easy. But yes, not or simple, not easy. Which I think is a great tool to let people know, and I love also that you told us what to look out for. So we're running out of time, but I think we know after this episode, we know what to look out for, what you watch out for, for ourselves. Like I definitely have a couple of yellow flags at the moment and super stressful at the moment. Right now. My business is going great. So lots of stuff going on. So I need to walk the talk as you said, but also for my clients, like, I looking back, I definitely had at least five to 10 clients where I would say they were definitely showing some signs. Inadvertently I do a lot of techniques that help burnout as well. But I loved that you said that one of the main things that you have to kind of think about referring out is that when people become stuck, you know.

Kristina: Yes.

Christine: And really give up on themselves and just think this is never going to change. And if you don't have the right way of talking to them, I believe that you hit a wall and you're not serving them. So for everyone out there, if you do have a client like that, please, maybe they can even get in touch with you and ask you for advice. How would they do that?

Kristina: Oh absolutely. So you can always reach me through my website, which is a DrKristinaHallett.org. D r K r i s t i n a H a l l e t t dot Org. You can also email me and seriously my email is out there everywhere but it's Kristina M as in Mary, KristinaMHallett@Gmail. I'm so happy to talk to people. You can reach me through LinkedIn or Facebook and this is exactly it. And you know, one of the things that I do is I often partner with other coaches. So for example, if you were working with someone on your sleep coaching and they got to that point...

Christine: I'm just like, oh, not quite there with my practice, which, you know, I do stuff paper to a certain limit but I'm not a clinical psychologist or psychiatrist or whatever, you know. So I know when I reached my limits I would just say, look Kristina, I want to refer you someone, let's just do this together. And if they fine with it actually may be exchanged notes, depends on the kind of course. Yeah.

Kristina: Exactly. And then I would work on that piece and then send them back to do the piece that they were doing, because I'm not trying to be an expert in everything either.

Christine: Exactly.

Kristina: So one of the people that I work with in fact is teaching people about money management and being in charge of their financial side of their business. But same thing if a person you see this with entrepreneurs all the time, if they get burnt out, they're stuck.

Christine: Yeah.

Kristina: Those blocks that need to be addressed so they can go back and do that. I don't want to teach somebody about the financial aspects of running their business. I'm good with mine, you know. So that kind of thing. So I absolutely love that, because to my mind, then everyone's getting to be in their wheelhouse, their area of expertise…

Christine: Exactly.

Kristina: but also making a difference.

Christine: Absolutely. And I think it's a sign of being an integrity and it's also a sign of being a high end coach if you have a referral network, if you have a team that you know can help you with, just showing that you have a great network and it's just professional. I just find people knowing when to say stop and having someone they trust that great to work with, that's just showing how professional you are. So anyone who's doing coaching but it has a lot of these types of people and it's like I don't feel quite equipped for that. I think Kristina would get better results. She obviously has the experience. She has the credentials. We just heard her speak, so everything's just been golden. Then do you get in touch with her. We have all the links on our website, 360healthbizpodcast.com. You'll just have to click on the links and you can get in touch with her and I just think this is amazing. Have a look at the video where she's demonstrating the app. We're going to link it as well in the post on the transcript and that's all we have time for today. Kristina, I cannot tell you how grateful I am for you being here and sharing all this system with us. I think it's a topic that's, you know, people roll their eyes as soon as they hear the word burnout because it's just been used so much, but it's very, very real and I think because so many people are fed up with it, they don't care to even look further into it. So I think this is a golden episode that every health practitioner is mandatory to listen to it.

Kristina: Well, thank you so much for having me on. As I said, this is my passion because I truly believe that we can feel better and when we feel better, we give better care and so that means that we're literally making a difference in changing the world, and we have to start with ourselves.

Christine: Yes, we do. I love this. I'm totally in love with you right now. Crushing hard.

Kristina: Yes, yes, yes, yes. Ditto, so there with you.

Christine: Alright, well everyone, thank you so much for tuning on, surf over to iTunes if you've enjoyed this episode and give us some love there, and all the links on our show notes on our website and we're looking forward to talk soon, next time together with Kendra and stay tuned for more business tips and also continuous education tips, which we did today. So thank you so much for being with us and that's it for today. So bye.