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Topic: Marco's Sourdough Pizza (Read 33867 times)

I justed started activating the Camaldoli culture and hope to be baking pies with it next week. I plan to use only the starter and no commercial yeast. What have been the experiences here for those that tried the recipe that comes with the culture?

check Marco's posts for his better version of the recipe. He is holding back a little on us about all the details because he is coming out with a book very soon that will tell us everything. I think with your knowledge, and his basic recipe you will do great.

Activating the Calmoldoli starter was almost a disaster. I use well water that is very alkaline (pH=8) and after the first day of activation, the starter smelled like vomit! Several washings later using bottled water (pH=6.7), it seems to be back on track. I have also activated the Ischia starter (sterilizing so the Calmoldoli and Ischia do not get cross-contaminated) and it has just the most pleasant smell. I can't wait to start using both and never agin using commercial yeast.

Today I made of batch of pies using only natural Italian starter - no commercial yeast. I had planned on using the Camoldoli culture, but the Ischia one was activated sooner. I have to say I was somewhat disappointed at the results. Although the culture seemed to add a little tang to the crust, it provided almost no visible rise, not even during baking. Cornicione had very little bubbles and was on the hard-tough side.

I gave the dough about 20 hours of fermentation at room temp. Maybe the culture had not been sufficiently activated.

The dough formula above is much drier than I am used to, but it was certainly easier to work with. I am also used to using much more natural starter and adding some commercial yeast, but I'm trying to see if I can get good results without commercial yeast.

Not sure what direction to go from here. Try the Calmoldoli culture? Use more starter? Any ideas?

Bill, I have been experimenting with Marco's recipe for the past few weeks. I also had trouble at first getting used to dealing with the starter. I have been using the Ischia starter successfully in the past coulple of batches. I don't know if this is true, but I read somewhere that the starter takes a little while to get up to its full potential even after it looks active. All I know is that all of a sudden it started working better for me. My problem was that it was too sour, but it has seemed to mellow. I think a big part of the leavening aspect of the culture is that it has to be used in it's peak of activity. Also realize that Marco recommends that the starter is more of a dough consistency than the 50 50 than Ed recommends in the directions. I don't use my starter until it is expanding so much that it is overflowing it's container. I also don't use it until it is overflowing pretty soon after feeding. Trial and error is common with these things from what I have seen. Don't give up, you will be rewarded.

As far as the dry dough goes, I often don't get all the flour into my batches, but rater go by feel, and this has helped a lot. You have had enough experience to know when the dough feels right. Trust yourself, and don't pay attention to the flour amounts in the recipe. Some days I get it all in and the dough feels just like the next batch with less flour? Humidity on any given day is the factor I guess.

Also, don't expect quite as much spring as yeast would give. If you feel like the dough is too dense, a higher hydration dough and a hotter oven could help you out. You will get it all into balance with work. I have also done the combo IDY/starter thing, and it works great. Just use a really tiny amount of IDY. I know Marco has stated not to combine cultures cultures in the dough, but I wonder what his feeling is on mixing IDY and culture. I think you loose some flavor, but between the Caputo and the culture flavor there is plenty to spare in my opinion.

Thank you, Scott, for the information and encouragement. I am as stubborn as they come so I have every intention to forge ahead on my quest. I will keep feeding the Ischia. It is not nearly as active as yours.

Why Ischia? Why not Calmoldoli? What's the difference in the final pizza?

I disagree that the starter doesn't give you as much as oven spring as IDY. It just needs more experience. Back in my early days on this forum, in aswering PTF Tylor, I reccomended my "guide recipe" (there is not a recipe in the artisanal baking world) for experienced bakers.Unfortunately it is very difficult to explain. I could not even train you in one day. This is an artisanal job and requires time and experience, but you will get there...

Ischica has a less sour flavor, but gives less spring, I could be wrong on the second one. If you haven't already you can click on pizzanapoletana's name on one of his posts, then click on "read latest posts of this member". This will let you see all of his posts from his first day as a member. In there will be answers to many of your questions. I just want the darn book Marco hurry up!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Once your starter is more active you will find it works much better. Beware of the extra flavor it will impart though! I have been finding that 24 hours is way to long with my higher than recommended room temp and a really active starter. Marco recommends 65 degrees, and my apartment is usually 80. I can't wait till it gets a little hotter and I will be able to turn on my window air conditioner. I am going to put the dough in front of it, and take temp readings with my laser thermometer to try to get the recommended temp. I have also thought about getting an old dorm fridge that has trouble keeping cool (lots of those around here in Boston) to try to get the 65.

A while back, I made several pizzas based on pizzanapoletana's dough recipe, after scaling the recipe down to a single-pizza size to allow me to make experiments without ending up with a lot of unused dough. I used the Caputo 00 pizzeria flour in the scaled-down recipe and a natural preferment I had made locally, also using the Caputo 00 flour. I reported on the results of my experiments at the Caputo 00/Caputo 00 Biga thread, starting with Reply #16 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,986.20.html. Subsequently, I reported on my continuing experiments using essentially the same recipe at Replies ##23, 26, 28 and 65. You might find it helpful to look at those posts since I detailed my experiments quite carefully so as to be as instructive as possible to those who might follow in my steps.

I used my Caputo 00 natural preferment in a somewhat liquid state--like a very thick batter rather than like a piece of dough. Like fellow member scott, I also experimented with using the Caputo 00 preferment together with small amounts of IDY. I personally preferred the doughs made only with the Caputo 00 natural preferment, because for some reason when I used the IDY, no matter how small a quantity, the flavor of the finished crust was much more subdued than the crusts based only on the Caputo 00 preferment. I reported on the results of those experiments also at the abovementioned thread.

I have read that the proper time to use a ripened preferment is just after it has peaked in activity and the center of the preferment starts to sink a bit. Like scott, I feed my preferment after removing it from the refrigerator and let it sit at room temperature until the volume expands and the bubbles are many and active. As pftaylor and others have commented before, it takes a few weeks for a new preferment to become really useful. Some of my early experiments with the Caputo 00 preferment took place before it was really ready for prime time. Yet I got good results nonetheless.

Where you are in Sante Fe, you may have to make adjustments to your processes to take the altitude into account, as you apparently have been doing with your breads. One place where you may have to make modifications is in the amount of flour used. Although I made almost all of my Caputo 00 doughs by hand, when I use a stand mixer, I put all the water into the bowl and add only the amount of flour to get to the stage I want for the dough in terms of hydration, etc. (I know from the amount of leftover flour what the final hydration level is and make minor adjustments as necessary). When I use a food processor, I do the reverse--I add all or most of the flour to the bowl and add whatever water is required to get the dough ball to the desired stage.

I'm sure in due course you will master the process. Being stubborn certainly helps .

In our last episode, the Ischia culture was insufficiently activated causing disappointing results. This week I carefully tended the starter, observing it get a bit stronger with each feeding. When it blew the lid off it's plastic cambro incubator, I figured it was ready.

After the let down from last week, I was prepared for a long period of experimenting to learn about this culture's life cycle. Surely it would be a month or more before I could get an acceptable crust without using commercial yeast. How much culture to use? How long to ferment and proof? Well I got pretty lucky because I stumbled upon what may be one of the best crusts I've made to date. I was stunned that I was able to get a great corniccione with no commercial yeast. The particulars:

100% Caputo 0067% bottled water3.5% active Ischia starter2.7% salt

30 minute kneading at lowest speed in KA20 minute riposo12 hour ferment at room temp (dough had doubled! Living at 7000' must have helped)6 hours in the refrigeratorballs formed and 6 hour proof at room temp.

Very nice job with the pizza. How did it taste? And how pronounced was the flavor from the preferment you used?

I notice that you used 3.5% of the starter. Was that as a percent of the flour? I notice also that you used 30 minutes of kneading at low speed. I assume that even for such a long knead there was little heat buildup in the dough. Is that so? With 67% hydration, did you have any problems handling, shaping and stretching the dough?

Now you at least have a starting point from which to base future experimentation, with reasonable assurance of success. Is there anything that you plan to change the next time around based on your results? One of the interesting things I took away from your experiment was the use of both room temperature and refrigeration of the dough. I have done both individually but not in combination, and had wondered whether one could do both with the same dough and get good results. Being able to do both might be a way of achieving better dough management, especially when distractions and interruptions force us to adjust our dough management practices.

Soon, when you get your Santos machine, not only will you be able to become a pizza dough commissary, but you will be able to make and sell some outstanding pizzas from your 800 degree oven. Maybe you will inch your way into the business .

Thank you. The taste was wonderful - not yeasty, a little tang, smoky and with a buttery hint, if that makes sense. It didn't taste too differently from the crusts I make from my old natural starter and commercial yeast, but I am clearly at the start of a steep learning curve, so I am optimistic that better results lie ahead. I think the taste contributed by the culture will improve as it matures.

Yes, all measurements were a percent of the flour. No heat buildup in the dough. As with all of doughs I make with high hydrations, it was pretty sticky. I tried to use the minimum of bench flour, but of course, some was needed. The only problem I ever have these wet doughs is unloading into the oven. I made four pizzas and one made a mess coming off the peel.

I suspect as this culture matures, it may become more acidic, but also more active allowing me to reduce the amount of starter over time. Next time I will allow it to proof a little longer since the fourth pizza rose better than the first one. The refrigerator retardation after 12 hours was simply because I awoke in the middle of the night and saw the dough had doubled, so I put it in the refrigerator until I woke up in the morning. Just dumb luck. If this procedure proves valid, then I can make and ferment dough a day or two ahead, put it the refrigerator, and simply take it out to form and proof 6-7 hours before baking. I definitely want to work on this more to find the best way of having the dough ready when I want to bake it.

Darn Santos machine is back ordered until the end of the month which means I'll see it some time in July if I'm lucky. I have the utmost respect for those in the business who can produce a quality product at a profit. But that's not my ambition. Corny as it sounds, making the best food I can for my family and friends is my sole motivation and a source of great satisfaction.

Thanks to all here whose help has gotten me this far. Onward and upward!

I don't want to be but I can't help it. What I would do to be able to bake in a real wood burning outdoor oven. I look like Pavlov's salivating dog right now after viewing your pictures. Then I find out you are getting a Santos fork mixer to boot. Pure envy.

You have the inside track on setting new quality standards due to your passion for pizza. You have higher quality equipment than 99.9% of the pizzerias in the world. I sincerely doubt the other 1/10th of 1 percent can match your passion.

I can't wait to share in the journey with you. At least I will be able to say that I knew Bill/SFNM before it was fashionable to say so.

I know that Marco uses a preferment that is more like dough than a batter. I have used both with good results. Which form did you use, and did you weigh it? Also, what was the total dough weight you used for the four pizzas and the diameter of the pizzas? Thanks.

Hi Bill,I think we crossed paths a couple of years ago?Here's the mesage:

David,Thanks to you I am the proud owner of 25kg of Caputo 00 pizza flour. I just baked up a batch and must say it was the best and most authentic of my humble efforts to date. By the time I've used the whole bag, I should have it nailed. Thanks for the help!!

So how many bags have you used before you actually "Nailed It"?!Ha Ha!

You are doing great by the looks of things Bill.I had a few questions,most of which have been addressed.just wondering which cheese you used (Buffala,homemade?)i had always put the buttery flavor down to using buffala?

I'm almost ready with my recently built oven and am now waiting patiently for my starter to activate.It is the first time using a criscito so I'm a little nervous,as it will also be the first Pizza in my own oven.I feel like I'm preparing for an opening on Bropadway !You obviously have great passion Bill,and we are lucky to have Marco providing some insight over here.regards and good luck, David

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Messaggio:I have been trying to perfect the dough for "DOC" pizza napoletana that I cook in my wood burning brick oven at home. Just can't seem to get the crust right (authentic). Latest attempts have been with "00" flour from King Arthur. Anyone in the USA have a source for flour to produce the real thing?

One of the funny thing about the thread in which the two messages appeared is that when I used the Google translator to translate some of the stuff into English, including the page of the thread with the name of Fred Mortati, the importer of the Caputo 00 flour, Fred's name was translated into Fred Dead. I subsequently told Fred that (and emailed him the translation) and he got the biggest kick out of it. I sometimes jokingly refer to him as Fred Dead.

So how many bags have you used before you actually "Nailed It"?!Ha Ha!

David,

Great to see you hanging out here. You don't know how much your suggestion of Caputo 00 has changed my pizza life. I'm still trying to nail it and probably will be for a long time. I would guess I've consumed 7 or 8 bags in the past few years.

I really wish my Italian was better - that forum seemed to have so much good info. I think I tried different translation sites and they rendered the posts unintelligible.

I'll make homemade bufala as soon as I get a water buffalo for the back yard. . Although I like to use homemade cows milk mozzarella, this particular pizza had a cheese that a friend brought me from Mexico: queso Oaxaca which is a great melting cheese, especially at high temps. American versions of queso oaxaca are not very good, but the real thing is delicious and makes a great pizza. I used "buttery" to describe the crust. I really don't have a vocabulary to describe the complex flavors that roll across the tongue when eating really good bread. I guess we could follow the lead of the wine snobs: "the first bite of the corniccione was reminiscent of an air bag deploying followed by the scent of baby diapers"

Good luck on your maiden voyage! Let us know how everything comes out.

That's funny Peter!,(and also the fact that you linked Bill and I from a different site).I have spent an amazing amount of time over the years trying to translate,decypher and unlock the meaning of Google Translations.I think I should put together a fool proof glossary of real terms .My wife just walked in and asked "Just how much can you read about Pizza?".I think I haven't even scratched the surface............It's amazing though that due to my brief encounters on the Italian site,I travelled to Italy ,met other contributors to the site and was invited to thier Kitchens and share in thier passion.Amazing.How much can you read about Pizza?.............How much can yo EAT is my answer!

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I got the telephone number for Orlando Foods from your post, and that led me to Fred Mortati and to the Caputo 00 flour. I know what you mean about Google translations--and getting words and phrases like "peak", "paste", "daisy" and "knows them all" .

[/b]Tried the newly activated Camaldoli starter for the first time and it was sensational. Although others have reported different results, this one was milder and weaker than the Ischia - maybe because it still needs maturing. Fermented for 24 hours at room temp and proofed for 5 hours at room temp. In contrast to the Ischia that doubled during a shorter fermentation, this expanded only about 25% after a longer fermenting.

Everyone agreed the flavor of the crust was terrific: a little tang and very complex. Very tender, even fluffy if that is what Marco means. Not at all dry or bready. Here is a picture:

You might recall that Marco said that the dough in his basic recipe shouldn't rise during the fermentation/ripening periods (or words to that effect). That was basically my experience using my Texas-bred natural preferment. Did you do anything to the dough after the 24-hour fermentation, like knock it down or reball it, before embarking on the final 5 hours?

Now that you have tried out both sourdo.com starters, do you find that they are better than using commercial yeast, either alone or accompanied by the starter you had been using?

Marco's statement about the dough not rising much until baking had me puzzled, especially when the Ischia doubled. But (not to sound like a broken record), doughs rise faster with less yeast at 7000' above sea level. Which means I can probably cut back on the amount of starter as I get a better handle on these cultures. For some reason, I think the altitude is giving me a larger window for fermenting/proofing and creating a balance between the yeast and the other microbes. Need to do a lot more testing.

When I awoke this morning, the dough had been fermenting for 24 hours, so, as gently as possible, I shaped it into balls and allowed it to proof at room temp until it was time to bake. No punching down - this dough is way too sticky to handle much at all. After 5 hours, each ball had flattened and had puffed up a bit and didn't seemed to be overproofed at that point.

I still have a lot of experimenting before I determine which starter is "better", but my old natural starter which was born when I lived in San Francisco and has mellowed a lot over the years here in New Mexico and which I have always used with commercial yeast is now my least favorite. Based on today's success, I intend to focus my experiments on the Camaldoli.

I think what I'll do is to invite over some foodie friends who have provided me with a lot of good feedback over the years and bake up a few batches of pies using the different starters for some blind taste tests. Should be fun.