Usually, when people say they’re not religious, they’re looking to pick a fight or at least start an argument. That’s probably because people who identify themselves as atheists or agnostics are often as dogmatic as Cotton Mather and have merely made a religion of their own non-belief.

In my case, however, religion simply plays no role in my life. Or perhaps I should say institutionalized religion, seeing as how I very much subscribe to the Judeo-Christian value system. It’s the reason that I’m so grateful that two sets of Russian Jewish grandparents had the guts to pack up their kids and caboodle, and move to America.

Unfortunately, they and many others like them included in their baggage several hundred years worth of religious antagonisms. In far too many cases, these fears and prejudices, although initially well-founded, have been passed along like precious heirlooms from one generation to the next.

Even among some of my friends and relatives, there are those who half-expect their Christian neighbors to start organizing pogroms any day now. They remain unconvinced that Hitler and the Nazis were pagans. And even when I point out that it was American and British soldiers, mainly Christians, who brought down the Third Reich and liberated the concentration camps, it often falls on deaf ears.

So, although I do not accept that we are all fallen creatures or that Jesus Christ died for my sins, I am thankful that I live in a Christian nation. I realize that it’s only my dumb luck to be an American. The fact of the matter is that when it comes to one’s religion, it is usually determined by geography, not by choice. If you’re born in Japan, you are likely to be a Buddhist; if you’re born in Italy, you’re likely to be a Roman Catholic; in India, a Hindu; in England, an Anglican; in Utah, a Mormon; and in New York City, a liberal.

This is not to suggest that, even in my eyes, all religions are equally valid. You’d have to be one of those non-judgmental pinheads who sound the trumpets for cultural diversity, pretending to believe that all nations, all religions and all ideologies, are equally good and equally bad.

So long as Islam is around, only an idiot could seriously promote such nonsense.

Muslims are people who believe that freedom is a naughty word, who believe that women are no better than cattle, and who refer to the ninth century as the good old days.

It was bad enough when they used a newspaper cartoon as an excuse to go berserk. Now they’re outraged because of a Sudanese teddy bear. These Neanderthals actually wanted to torture and execute English school teacher Gilliam Gibbons because, at the behest of a seven-year-old in her class, she named the stuffed toy Muhammad.

These simpletons seem to spend half their lives on their knees praying and the other half up in arms, looking to kill somebody for some utterly stupid reason. They are a blot on humanity, and humanity, I think we’d all agree, isn’t that great to begin with.

Imagine if Catholics were as psychotic as Islamists. Just having a little Jesus on his dashboard or a cr√®che in his front yard would be like signing his own death warrant.

So, even though I haven’t a religious bone in my body, I have every reason to be grateful I was born in a country in which it’s Christ’s birthday, and not Muhammad’s first slaying of an infidel, that’s celebrated as a national holiday.

39 Comments, 39 Threads

1.
Jeb

A better title for your essay would be why I like Christians better than Muslims.

They remain unconvinced that Hitler and the Nazis were pagans.

That would be because they were Christians. Your relatives were/are right. Hitler was raised Catholic and most Germans, Nazi and otherwise, were Christians. This is not to say that the Nazis did what they did in the name of Christ or Christianity, merely that they were Christians.
The Germany of the 30s was a Christian nation in the same sense that the US is/was a Christian nation* as were most of the primary players in WWII.

The freedoms we have in most of the Western industrialized world are primarily associated with increasing secularism**, particularly government secularism. The US was founded with a secular government at its core and the European governments have since followed that lead to the benefit of their populace. When Europe was under Christian theocratic rule it was every bit as oppressive as countries under Muslim theocratic rule. The real lesson here is that theocratic rule leads to oppression.

* identified by the religious identification of the majority of the populace

Amen to that, Burt!! And Americans – no matter what their belief/nonbelief are free to tell those nice people who come to their doors (J’s Witnesses) that they are not interested. Then those nice people just go away.

I have a hard time following your argument, I’m afraid. Of course, we’re all happy to be Americans. We have the first amendment and a long tradition – although not perfect – of religious tolerance. But when did we become a Christian nation? And how does your argument rely on that dubious “fact”. We have always been a “non-denominational” nation. That is precisely what the first amendment intends. Sure, the majority are Christians. And a lot of effort was made by the founders to prevent majorities from becoming centers of power – the “tyranny of the majority” is how the Federalist Papers would phrase it. The point really is that those who would have America be a “Christian nation” are in opposition to our long history of non-establishment. And therefore dangerous to the comfort and joy that you rightly feel at having been lucky enough to land here. Christian zealots (or Hindu, or Jewish, for that matter) can be quite intolerant, as anyone with their eyes open can see.

Unless the following quotation isn’t accurate, Hitler was not exactly a “pagan.” The truth may be more complex- that a Christian monster was defeated by other Christians. Although I agree with you in general, I believe that your argument could have been made easily without the simplistic talking point of Hitler-as-pagan.

“My feelings as a Christian points me to my Lord and Savior as a fighter. It points me to the man who once in loneliness, surrounded by a few followers, recognized these Jews for what they were and summoned men to fight against them and who, God’s truth! was greatest not as a sufferer but as a fighter. In boundless love as a Christian and as a man I read through the passage which tells us how the Lord at last rose in His might and seized the scourge to drive out of the Temple the brood of vipers and adders. How terrific was His fight for the world against the Jewish poison. To-day, after two thousand years, with deepest emotion I recognize more profoundly than ever before the fact that it was for this that He had to shed His blood upon the Cross. As a Christian I have no duty to allow myself to be cheated, but I have the duty to be a fighter for truth and justice… And if there is anything which could demonstrate that we are acting rightly it is the distress that daily grows. For as a Christian I have also a duty to my own people.

What an utterly senseless essay. It begins by illustrating the insanity of Islam and winds up lumping Christians in with, nazis. And of course those Christian zealots are trying to take over America.
I think those terrible Christians are trying to prevent the forces of evil from destroying what is left of a once great Christian nation.
When was Christianity an agent of destruction ? Now I know a great many left wing loonies believe George Bush caused 9-11 and Bush derangement syndrome has turned them into slobbering idiots living in a cave, but the truth is still one man. Jesus Christ. It gives me a particular thrill to say that here on Sunday morning.
Zealot I may be to some of the commenters here but I pray for your souls and the wish that the grace of Jesus enters your life and reveals his truth to you.

What are you smoking? The United States, however the fundies want to spin it, is NOT a christian nation. The First Ammendment of the Constitution specifically states that there is to be no establishment of a national religion or the prohibition of the free exercise of religion. To further reinforce that, Article 6 of the US Constitution states that “all treaties shall be the Supreme Law of the Land,” and Article 11 of the Barbary Treaties signed in Tripoli explicitly state that the US is NOT a christian nation.

How ridiculous. I find it humorous that so many American citizens are so uneducated that they are completely unable to tell the difference between a republic and a theocracy. I think the author of this article needs to return to ninth grade civics (as well as a decent writing class, because he fails in both areas). His rambling, incoherent article does nothing but highlight his educational deficiencies and closed-minded ideologies. No wonder so many Americans are trying to move to Canada.

I am a theological modernist and substantially completely agree with Burt Prelutsky.

“That would be because they were Christians.”

The Nazis were not Christians. They had long ago abandoned the religious heritage of their youth. Adolph Hitler was a convinced atheist by the time he committed suicide. He occasionally employed deceitful rhetoric in order to con the hoi polloi. The same holds true for Benito Mussoloni who also used Catholic symbolism to advance his fascist policies.

“…however the fundies want to spin it, is NOT a christian nation.”

You are, of course, right in a legal sense—but not culturally. Christians also have a right to participate in the political process. They must, however, argue on behalf of their positions based on reason and not scripture.

Are you joking? Please tell me that you are not this much of a historical illiterate. You need to do some serious reading. There are absolutely no serious historians who believe that the Nazis were Christians. As matter of fact, Adolph Hitler said the following:

“The best thing is to let Christianity die a natural death…. When understanding of the universe has become widespread… Christian doctrine will be convicted of absurdity….
“Christianity has reached the peak of absurdity…. And that’s why someday its structure will collapse….
“…the only way to get rid of Christianity is to allow it to die little by little….
“Christianity the liar….
“We’ll see to it that the Churches cannot spread abroad teachings in conflict with the interests of the State.” (p 49-52)

Burt;
I object to your smear on behalf of Neanderthals everywhere and everywhen! The best evidence would indicate that the Neaderthal are a peaceable species, driven to the wall by aggressive and bloodthirsty Cro Magnons, ancestors of the current “human” stock.

I’m not sure just who you should pick as your poster children for primitive violence, but your own family tree should be investigated for candidates first!

Nonetheless, one of the key reasons the Nazis were able to institute an extreme anti-Semitism was due to centuries of Christian rhetoric and action against Judaism. It seems we’re doing the same with Islam today – finding isolated incidents from across the world and using them as an excuse to declare an entire group of people worthy of destruction.

Read these hateful comments? The US was never to be a theocracy, but our founders expected us to be a largely Christian nation.

All these “evangelical atheists” and secular jews (an overlapping venn diagram if I ever saw one) are trying to overthrow our society and system of government for the secular socialist model, and they are the enemy within. I don’t say that as a “fundie”, as I haven’t been to church in a decade or more, but as an American. A proud, fortunate and patriotic one.

Dan writes: “It seems we’re doing the same with Islam today – finding isolated incidents from across the world and using them as an excuse to declare an entire group of people worthy of destruction.”

Really, Dan? So the Jews drove a train into a high-rise place of business in Berlin? So the Jews made movies of themselves sawing the heads off of captives? So the Jews made movies saying they were going to take over the world and establish Jewish law everywhere? Seriously, what the hell are you talking about? Oh, and one more question. Can you name one of these wes of yours who wants to “declare an entire group of people worthy of destruction”?

I agree with your concluding premise regarding Islam. HoweverI think conflating the Western issue of Atheism/Secularists vs. Christianity tm. is a side issue at best to your main theme.
Yes the Atheists act just like the Pat Robertson’s of the world, but that does not mean that the majority religion, which does have a tendency to swamp any and all competition if no one stands up against it, does not need a watchdog or two to keep them honest.
As to the issue of Islam. to quote millions OI! How to wake people up without sounding like a hate monger? How to stand against a monolithic religion in a land of freedom of religion. How to do it and not lose our own precious tradions of freedom?
Certainly we cannot sound hateful. We must learn to speak toward the moderate middle and convince them of the reality of history and today regarding Islam. I myself held a mostly false view of the entire religon frm my own assumptions. Every other religion I had studied was, at it;’s core, about universal love and not abut universal discrimination against any not of “the Faith” with universal love held only for the faithful. We can see how well THAT worked out. Muslims kill other Muslims MORE than they kill Christian or Jews! And as for poor little Pagans like me, I have no soul to them and am meat on sight..if they are in power.
You have a voiice and a forum, do not sqwuander them with mean-spirited commentary directed toward the choir; Moderate your voice and seek to communicate with the Majority of the Undecided! ONMly then will Progress be made against this threat to the West itself.
BUT! Do not think for a minute that there are not powerful elements in our own culture, in the Christian religion that seek the same kind of power the Sharia courts have in Islam! Research the connections of our beloved administration (sarcasm alert) with: Rushdoony, reconstructionism and the Christian Identity movement. And to be honest you must admit there are Jewish versions as well! I truly recognise the out of proportion to population contribution that Jews have made since the Diaspora from Jeruselem. No toher people can boast such contributions. JEws have been like yeast to Western Culture. But do not forget the horrors Jews perpetrated when THEY had all the power in their own land! The eternal problem is, who will guard the guardians? We could fight long and hard to save the West from ISlam only to lose it to these fellows while our back are turned. We need to remain vigilant against those who would dominate in the Name of God (or No God) whether they are in our culture or outside it.
Take Care and Blessed Be

On reading all teh comments I see that no side here is exempt from liars and provacateurs, none of whom felt a need to leave an email for rebuttal.My favorite was the one abut how we cherry pick over the history of Islam to find examples of nastiness! This is posted either by a purposfully lying Muslim or a Wanna-be Dhimmi who does not know the history of ANYTHING; except for the version their “leaders” have spoon fed them.

Whether or not you believe Hitler himself was a Christian he did use Christianity and Christians to commit his atrocities. If he did not believe that his followers were Christian the why did he say the following:

“The folkish-minded man, in particular, has the sacred duty, each in his own denomination, of making people stop just talking superficially of God’s will, and actually fulfill God’s will, and not let God’s word be desecrated. For God’s will gave men their form, their essence and their abilities. Anyone who destroys His work is declaring war on the Lord’s creation, the divine will.”

“My feeling as a Christian points me to my Lord and Savior as a fighter. It points me to the man who once in loneliness, surrounded only by a few followers, recognized these Jews for what they were and summoned men to fight against them and who, God’s truth! was greatest not as a sufferer but as a fighter. In boundless love as a Christian and as a man I read through the passage which tells us how the Lord at last rose in His might and seized the scourge to drive out of the Temple the brood of vipers and adders. How terrific was his fight against the Jewish poison. Today, after two thousand years, with deepest emotion I recognize more profoundly than ever before the fact that it was for this that He had to shed his blood upon the Cross. As a Christian I have no duty to allow myself to be cheated, but I have the duty to be a fighter for truth and justice. And as a man I have the duty to see to it that human society does not suffer the same catastrophic collapse as did the civilization of the ancient world some two thousand years ago – a civilization which was driven to its ruin through this same Jewish people.

“Then indeed when Rome collapsed there were endless streams of new German bands flowing into the Empire from the North; but, if Germany collapses today, who is there to come after us? German blood upon this earth is on the way to gradual exhaustion unless we pull ourselves together and make ourselves free!

“And if there is anything which could demonstrate that we are acting rightly, it is the distress that daily grows. For as a Christian I have also a duty to my own people. And when I look on my people I see them work and work and toil and labor, and at the end of the week they have only for their wages wretchedness and misery. When I go out in the morning and see these men standing in their queues and look into their pinched faces, then I believe I would be no Christian, but a very devil, if I felt no pity for them, if I did not, as did our Lord two thousand years ago, turn against those by whom today this poor people are plundered and exploited.”

“For this, to be sure, from the child’s primer down to the last newspaper, every theater and every movie house, every advertising pillar and every billboard, must be pressed into the service of this one great mission, until the timorous prayer of our present parlor patriots: ÔøΩLord, make us free!ÔøΩ is transformed in the brain of the smallest boy into the burning plea: ÔøΩAlmighty God, bless our arms when the time comes; be just as thou hast always been; judge now whether we be deserving of freedom; Lord, bless our battle!ÔøΩ”

“I may not be a light of the church, a pulpiteer, but deep down I am a pious man, and believe that whoever fights bravely in defense of the natural laws framed by God and never capitulates will never be deserted by the Lawgiver, but will, in the end, receive the blessings of Providence.”

“I say: my Christian feeling tells me that my lord and savior is a warrior. It calls my attention to the man who, lonely and surrounded by only a few supporters, recognized what they [the Jews] were, and called for a battle against them, and who, by God, was not the greatest sufferer, but the greatest warrior. . .

“As a human being it is my duty to see to it that humanity will not suffer the same catastrophic collapse as did that old civilization two thousand years ago, a civilization which was driven to its ruin by the Jews. . . I am convinced that I am really a devil and not a Christian if I do not feel compassion and do not wage war, as Christ did two thousand years ago, against those who are steeling and exploiting these poverty-stricken people.

“Two thousand years ago a man was similarly denounced by this particular race which today denounces and blasphememes all over the place. . . That man was dragged before a court and they said: he is arousing the people! So he, too, was an agitator!”

“And now StaatsprÔøΩsident Bolz says that Christianity and the Catholic faith are threatened by us. And to that charge I can answer: In the first place it is Christians and not international atheists who now stand at the head of Germany. I do not merely talk of Christianity, no, I also profess that I will never ally myself with the parties which destroy Christianity. If many wish today to take threatened Christianity under their protection, where, I would ask, was Christianity for them in these fourteen years when they went arm in arm with atheism? No, never and at no time was greater internal damage done to Christianity than in these fourteen years when a party, theoretically Christian, sat with those who denied God in one and the same Government.”

( Adolf Hitler, in a speech delivered at Stuttgart, February 15, 1933. )

“We were convinced that the people needs and requires this faith. We have therefore undertaken the fight against the atheistic movement, and that not merely with a few theoretical declarations: we have stamped it out.”

( Adolf Hitler, in a speech delivered in Berlin, October 24, 1933. )

“Anyone who dares to lay hands on the highest image of the Lord commits sacrilege against the benevolent creator of this miracle and contributes to the expulsion from paradise.”

“We have experienced a miracle, something unique, something the like of which there has hardly been in the history of the world. God first allowed our people to be victorious for four and a half years, then He abased us, laid upon us a period of shamelessness, but now after a struggle of fourteen years he has permitted us to bring that period to a close. It is a miracle which has been wrought upon the German people. [...] It shows us that the Almighty has not deserted our people, that He received it into favour at the moment when it rediscovered itself. And that our people shall never again lose itself, that must be our vow so long as we shall live and so long as the Lord gives us the strength to carry on the fight.”

( Adolf Hitler, in a speech to the ‘Old Guard’ of the Party at Munich, March 19, 1934. )

“The anti-Semitism of the new [Christian Social] movement was based on religious ideas instead of racial knowledge.”

“Even today I am not ashamed to say that, overpowered by stormy enthusiasm, I fell down on my knees and thanked Heaven from an overflowing heart for granting me the good fortune of being permitted to live at this time. A fight for freedom had begun mightier than the earth had ever seen; for once Destiny had begun its course, the conviction dawned on even the broad masses that this time not the fate of Serbia or Austria was involved, but whether the German nation was to be or not to be.”

“As far as this variety of ÔøΩfolkishÔøΩ warriors, are concerned, I can only wish the National Socialist movement and the German people with all my heart: ÔøΩLord, preserve us from such friends, and then we can easily deal with our enemies.ÔøΩ”

“What we must fight for is to safeguard the existence and reproduction of our race and our people, the sustenance of our children and the purity of our blood, the freedom and independence of the fatherland, so that our people may mature for the fulfillment of the mission allotted it by the creator of the universe.”

“Imbued with the desire to secure for the German people the great religious, moral, and cultural values rooted in the two Christian Confessions, we have abolished the political organizations but strengthened the religious institutions.”

( Adolf Hitler, in a speech at Reichstag, Berlin, January 30, 1934. )

“The advantages of a personal and political nature that might arise from compromising with atheistic organizations would not outweigh the consequences which would become apparent in the destruction of general moral basic values. The national government regards the two Christian confessions as the weightiest factors for the maintenance of our nationality: their rights are not to be infringed.”

( Adolf Hitler, in a speech at Reichstag, Berlin, March 23, 1933; published in his My New Order )

“Secular schools can never be tolerated because such schools have no religious instruction, and a general moral instruction without a religious foundation is built on air; consequently, all character training and religion must be derived from faith.”

( Adolf Hitler, in 26 April 1933, from a speech made during negotiations leading to the Nazi-Vatican Concordant of 1933. )

“[T]he world has no reason for fighting in our defense, and as a matter of principle God does not make cowardly nations free…”

“While we destroyed the Centre Party, we have not only brought thousands of priests back into the Church, but to millions of respectable people we have restored their faith in their religion and in their priests. The union of the Evangelical Church in a single Church for the whole Reich, the Concordat with the Catholic Church, these are but milestones on the road which leads to the establishment of a useful relation and a useful co operation between the Reich and the two Confessions.”

( Adolf Hitler, in his New Year Message, January 1, 1934. )

“National Socialism has always affirmed that it is determined to take the Christian Churches under the protection of the State. For their part the churches cannot for a second doubt that they need the protection of the State, and that only through the State can they be enabled to fulfill their religious mission. Indeed, the churches demand this protection from the State.”

( Adolf Hitler, in a Radio Broadcast July 22, 1933; from My New Order. )

“I know that here and there the objection has been raised: Yes, but you have deserted Christianity. No, it is not that we have deserted Christianity; it is those who came before us who deserted Christianity. We have only carried through a clear division between politics, which have to do with terrestrial things, and religion, which must concern itself with the celestial sphere. There has been no interference with the doctrine of the Confessions or with their religious freedom, nor will there be any such interference. On the contrary the State protects religion, though always on the one condition that religion will not be used as a cover for political ends.

“There may have been a time when even parties founded on the ecclesiastical basis were a necessity. At that time Liberalism was opposed to the Church, while Marxism was anti-religious. But that time is past. National Socialism neither opposes the Church nor is it anti-religious, but on the contrary, it stands on the ground of a real Christianity.

“The Church’s interests cannot fail to coincide with ours alike in our fight against the symptoms of degeneracy in the world of to-day, in our fight against the Bolshevist culture, against an atheistic movement, against criminality, and in our struggle for the consciousness of a community in our national life, for the conquest of hatred and disunion between the classes, for the conquest of civil war and unrest, of strife and discord. These are not anti-Christian, these are Christian principles.”

( Adolf Hitler, in a speech delivered at Koblenz, August 26, 1934. )

“It would be more in keeping with the intention of the noblest man in this world if our two Christian churches, instead of annoying Negroes with missions which they neither desire nor understand, would kindly, but in all seriousness, teach our European humanity that where parents are not healthy it is a deed pleasing to God to take pity on a poor little healthy orphan child and give him father and mother, than themselves to give birth to a sick child who will only bring unhappiness and suffering on himself and the rest of the world.”

“I believe today that I am acting in the sense of the Almighty Creator. By warding off the Jews I am fighting for the Lords work.”

( Adolf Hitler, in a speech delivered at Reichstag, Berlin, 1936. )

“At the head of our [National Socialist] program there stand no secret surmisings but clear-cut perception and straightforward profession of belief. But since we set as the central point of this perception and of this profession of belief the maintenance and hence the security for the future of a being formed by God, we thus serve the maintenance of a divine work and fulfill a divine will-not in the secret twilight of a new house of worship, but openly before the face of the Lord.”

( Adolf Hitler, in a speech delivered at Nuremberg, September 6, 1938. )

“May God Almighty give our work His blessing, strengthen our purpose, and endow us with wisdom and the trust of our people, for we are fighting not for ourselves but for Germany.”

( Adolf Hitler, in a speech delivered at Berlin, February 1, 1933. )

“The judgment whether a people is virtuous or not virtuous can hardly be passed by a human being. That should be left to God.”

( Adolf Hitler, in a speech delivered at Wilhelmshaven, April 1, 1939. )

Quotes compiled by Stephen J Gould.

To be fair, Christians, Muslims, Jews, Buddhists, all other religions, as well as atheists and agnostics are capable of atrocities. To try and single out one religion as better and not prone to intolerance and violence involves ignorance, self deception, or both.

I am bowled over by some of the inane and insane comments. Suffice to say, Hitler was not a devout Christian, no matter how he presented himself in 1922, 11 years before he assumed power. Had he been a Christian, it’s safe to assume he would at the very least have used the cross and not the swastika as his favorite symbol. I did not lump Christians and Nazis,WR Jonas. For you, I prescribe a remedial reading class. As for Jennifer, nobody is confusing a republic with a theocracy. (But, then, I always know I am dealing with someone who is accustomed to battling with paper tigers when they start off by attacking my writing ability.) If over 80% of a nation’s citizenry identifies themselves as Christians, it is safe to refer to it as a Christian nation. The nice thing about Christians is that even though they have such a numerical advantage, they do not shove their religion down the throats of the rest of us. Finally, Jennifer, who are all these Americans who are trying to move to Canada? Canada is a very hospitable country and would, I’m quite certain, even welcome the likes of you with wide open arms.

I do am thankful to have grown up in a Christian society. We have been blessed. The future may not be as bright, however. As people turn their backs on God, they put themselves in God’s place. As history has shown on many occasions, when men think themselves supreme incalculable suffering and misery soon follows.

“The nice thing about Christians is that even though they have such a numerical advantage, they do not shove their religion down the throats of the rest of us.”

Oh, my, that one has me rolling on the floor laughing!! Are you serious??!! What part of the country do you live in?? Obviously you aren’t from the South, because, believe me, down here- your beloved Christians never miss an opportunity to shove their religion down the throats of “non-believers”.

May I remind people that the fundamentalists shouldn’t be the representative fraction of someone’s religion? If we decided to use such a perspective one might say the same for Jews- look at Israel right now, or for the Christians who claim that they know the will of their god and that he proclaims that we should rid the world of the Middle East. The “fundies”, as some of us call them, are everywhere and in every religion. The fact of the matter is that we happen to be at war with a Muslim nation and thus we see and hear a great deal of pejorative information about them. I know Muslims who are wonderful people and who are idiots, just as I know Christians of the same vein who beat their wives and children. Living in a small town in the deep South I am treated as inferior to men and Christians daily, but I have the sense to realize that the idiots aren’t the religion.

I, too, am grateful that I live in a culturally Christian country. So far the evangelicals are under control, more so than the wild eyed ideologues of rambling commenter “Jeb’s” ilk, and the general principles of Christianity have served us well, if not perfectly. I also have great respect for the Jewish tradition. The only real religious poison I perceive is, like you Mr. Perlutsky, that being spread by the Islamic fundamentalists.

Hitler was not a devout Christian, no matter how he presented himself in 1922, 11 years before he assumed power.

Hitler presented himself as such from before 1922 until at least 1942 and arguable 1944, just from the selection of quotes above. Germany from well before then until now is/was a majority Christian nation.

Had he been a Christian, it’s safe to assume he would at the very least have used the cross and not the swastika as his favorite symbol.

Now that’s just silly.
Following that logic, the US is not a Christian nation since none of our symbols is a cross. You seem to be changing your definitions based on context to suit your argument.

The greatness of the US is not based on the Christianity of its populace. It is based on the secular character of our government set out by our founders that has protected us and continues to protect us from the excesses of any religious group. Because of the genius of this document it does not matter what religious group is in the majority; the religious beliefs or lack thereof of all groups remain protected.

When politics and religion, particularly fundamentalist religion, mix the result is virtually always less rather than more freedom.

BTW Argentina, Brazil, Dominican Republic, Ecuador, El Salvador, Greece, Kenya, and other nations are equally or more Christian as far as religiosity and religious identity of the populace. I would argue that all of these nations are substantially less free than the US or Western European nations.

That first Hitler quote that Jeb posted “I am now as before a Catholic and will always remain so.” is from 1944.

The other bit that you gloss over is that Hitler could not have pulled off any of his pograms without 1000 years of explicit Catholic anti-semitism to get the German people behind him. Politicians use whatever symbols work. Hitler’s appropriation of the Swaztica and the lightning bolt powerful examples.

Most Americans like to forget the 22 million Russians that died fighting the Nazis, but FDR and later Truman couldn’t and it’s why half of Europe ended up under Russian rule. There is a reasonable argument that says that Hiroshima was for the Japanese and Nagasaki was for the Russians.

My mother’s brother spent three years eating grass in a German POW camp. My father was a Marine who was saved from Guadalcanal becuase two weeks before he was supposed to ship out they decided to excuse men with two or more children. They knew what kind of causalties they were going to see.

I bring that up only because what people did during “the War” was a pretty frequent topic of conversation around my house growing up. Much like Yankee in the south, damncommie was single word most of the time too.

Saying you’re happy that you’re living in a Christian country probably sells some papers (if selling is what you’re doing) but it doesn’t shed a whole lot of light ot truth.

If anything, the liberal Deists and the Unitarians of the Enlightment have shaped the country (and arguably the culture in our sense of individual rights) in a basic level far more than the rigid sectarians. Those live and let live “loony” liberals are the one’s who set up a religiously restricted secular government, that allows religions to flourish.

It should give you some pause when we have private mercenary armies being run people who are also on the BOD of the Chalcedon foundation. Really these “Christians” mean what they say.

I agree with you on the Muslim issue. I’ve never seen a Sharia state that I’d want anyone but George Bush, Hillary Clinton and their adherents to live in. I’m sad that so many of my fellow liberals tie themselves into rhetorical knots trrying to “respect” this religion of “peace” and “submission.”

I’m thankful that I live in Paine, Jefferson and Madison’s version of America rather than Harrisons.

Hilter was a Socialist who in his words said ‘our socialism goes deeper’. If Hilter was a Christian then he had a funny way of showing this when by 1938 he had managed to ban Christmas displays from the public schools and had the word ‘Christmas’ changed to ‘Yuletide’.

In any case, how could a German believe in God when they had to believe that Hilter was their savior.

That said, I don’t like environmental fundamentalist who are shoving their religion down my throat, they like think they’re God or something.

Notbuyingit,
A more fair example would be to compare nations that are similar in most respects other than religion. One such pair would be the more Muslim Cote d’Ivoire (~40%) and the more Christian Ghana (~70%).

France is far more Christian (~88%) than the Netherlands (~40% no religion) and is by many metrics less free. Both of these nations are considerably more free than Ghana or Cote d’Ivoire.

Growing up in the Bible Belt and not buying in to the dominant religious culture, I often had religion pushed on me. That religious ‘coercion’ was almost exclusively limited to petty annoyances. Many I grew up with fundamentally disagree with me and, I would argue, the constitution about the role religion should play in government. Given the opportunity to legislate their morality and their prejudices many of these same people would choose to do so and have said as much to me over many a spirited conversation. They are by and large good hearted, well meaning people* that think those measures are best for people and society. This tendency is thankfully limited in US by our Constitution and our relatively secular society.

The Muslim:Christian oppression comparisons are both hampered by exemplified by the continued presence of Muslim theocracies and virtual theocracies and the disappearance of all but one Christian theocracy. When Christianity was allowed to rule the oppression and abuse were of similar scale to that of Muslim countries. The Enlightenment ushered in the beginning of a new age of rationality in what are now the Western industrialized nations. Due to this revolution religious power has waned in the face of secular institutions. This is the source of our freedoms and it has been opposed by the Church every step of the way.

* Most of these conversations end up with an agreement to remain in disagreement and switching the conversation to football. Those conversations generally end in disagreement as well since I went to Auburn and most of my family are Tide fans.

I find it astonishing how many of you are insisting that Hitler was a Christian believer. I suspect that the priests and nuns the Nazis executed would disagree with you. Wouldn’t it make more sense to judge him by his actions than by his politically-motivated words? By the way, do you also believe everything our own politicians say?

I also find it remarkable that several of you find a moral equivalency between Southern Christians who wish to convince you that their religion is the true path to Heaven and Muslims who wish to murder you. It reminds me of Steven Spielberg who tried to make the same case as between Islamic murderers and those Israelis who tracked them down in “Munich.”

Burt: Altho my wife and I are culturally Christian, we sent our son to a Jewish preschool. One day I see a Jewish colleague and he mentions he’s going to pick up his child at his preschool. “Where, I ask?” “At the Presbyterian preschool”, he says. He laughs when I say, “Only in America!” It’s true– where else would this happen?

I find it astonishing how many of you are insisting that Hitler was a Christian believer.

It doesn’t really matter if Hitler was a true believer. He very effectively used Christianity to motivate his Christian followers to commit atrocities just as jihadist leaders use Islam to motivate their Muslim followers to commit atrocities.

By the way, do you also believe everything our own politicians say?

While I do not believe everything any politician says, I do believe that what any politician says gives us information about their target audience.

If you don’t believe the Nazis were Christians and Germany a Christian nation, then why all the Christian rhetoric?

I also find it remarkable that several of you find a moral equivalency between Southern Christians who wish to convince you that their religion is the true path to Heaven and Muslims who wish to murder you.

That is not at all what I said or implied, but here goes. Terrorists are a much more serious threat and pushy Christians are more of a daily annoyance. Much like the murderer in the city down the road is a more serious threat, but I am daily annoyed by the neighbor who lets his dog crap on my lawn. Am I sometimes more upset by my neighbor, yes. Am I therefor drawing a moral equivalence, no.

The other point to consider. The chance of Islamists imposing Shari’a law on me, while a nightmarish scenario, is practically nil. The chance of Christianists legislating their morality on me, while less loathsome, is far greater. Considering this I react to the less serious but far more likely threat.

BTW I don’t think that any of the world’s great religions are inherently evil, but all have been used to justify evil and will continue to do so. They are also capable of motivating and doing good and will also continue to do so. We can only hope that the good will outweigh the evil.

les,

It’s true– where else would this happen?

Canada, the Netherlands, and a few other EU countries. It’s still a nice story though.

What dishonesty and deceit is being spewed by those claiming Hitler was a Christian! He was born into an Austrian Catholic family – that’s pretty much the end of his piety. Hitler just manipulated religious groups as he did any other political group.

In Hitler’s own words “one is either German or Christian. You cannot be both” “Do you really believe the masses will be Christian again? Never again. That tale is finished…but we can hasten matters. They will betray their God to us. They will betray anything for the sake of their miserable little job and incomes” (A History of Christianity” Paul Johnson p. 485-486)

That’s jst for starters. There is much more evidence to support Hitler’s complete and utter contempt of religious believers.

Those trying to pass off Hitler as a Christian are flat out liars. There is no other way to put it. They are liars.

Hitler was not a Christian, in fact he killed Christians because they got in the way of his campaign to exterminate the Jews.

Further if you read some of the Nazi platforms, (ie environmentalism, smoking, building a new world, to name a few) the rhetoric sounds exactly like socialist progressives today.

Nazis were big greenies, they were big in banning ‘unhealthy’ lifestyle choices such as smoking, and they were big believers in building a new world if they could just get rid of those ‘dirty’ people who soiled their pristine utopia.

Nazis was the name of the party, their ideology was socialism and their savior was Hitler.

Hitler just manipulated religious groups as he did any other political group.

And as the evidence has shown the primary religious group he manipulated to serve his ends were Christians. He used Christians to torture and kill millions of Jews, Rom, and homosexuals.

Hitler was not a Christian, in fact he killed Christians

Yes, because we all no that no one can kill a co-religionist.

Once again this argument does not rely on Hitler’s personal religious beliefs. What matters is that he was able to manipulate Christians through their religious belief to commit one of the worst atrocities in recorded history. All evangelical religions have this power and this potential and all have recognized it.

BTW syn, Hitler also instituted the 2 week vacation through most of Europe, does that mean we should forgo all vacations?