The Property / Real Estate Thread

This is a discussion on The Property / Real Estate Thread within Shifting gears, part of the Around the Corner category; Some good information in here.
http://www.subramoney.com/2015/12/mu...rce=alphaideas...

Not surprising. And i am wondering why many of the apartments (regardless of the builder quality/repuation) suffer from water seepage issues ? Why there is no system where there is a guarantee on quality of apartments ? I am pretty sure these seepage happens because of poor quality materials and bad construction.

And interestingly, in spite of all these, none of the apartments are sold for cheap

And interestingly, in spite of all these, none of the apartments are sold for cheap

+1 . Me too facing the poor quality in construction and materials used. My feeling is i am paying the amount of a German luxury car for an Indian sedan .
My builder changed the flooring materiel to some unknown china made brand without any notice. when questioned, he said it is there in agreement as materials will be changed according to availability in market. Unknown branded plumbing materials. Unknown electrical fittings and woods for doors and window frames materials. Their justification is these are all tested from their back end team but they can’t share the results which prove it is of superior quality. As per them, cracks and leaks can come in walls which is unavoidable. But these were never told during purchase where they agreed on all modifications and changes as per my requirement. After purchase they denied all saying management is not allowing it now. After all buying an apartment in metros are dealing with some unknown guys who are management experts to extract money from common man. And ultimately give him a substandard product named as luxury.

This is a grad B builder in Bangalore. In fact this seems to be a common practice among many builders. Recently i visited a villa for checking the interior work. Concerns were they offered somany branded tiles initially which they put for display and used in model apartment. When the stock came for all apartments, it got changed to an unknown Chinese brand. Their justifications are that they went to china to study the quality of tiles and picked the best one available. I can post some of the pics by tomorrow on few of my concerns on quality issues.

Putting an end to decade-long debate on encroachment of water bodies in and around Bengaluru, the House Committee appointed by the State Legislature, on Friday, released its study findings. The committee, headed by Ranebennur MLA KB Koliwad, after visiting 1,545 lakes since October 2014, has identified 11,595 encroachers including leading builders, developers and government agencies. The details of the finding will soon be published in the state gazette and the committee has directed officials to serve show-cause notices to encroachers seeking explanation before taking any action.

Reply by January-end
The committee has directed tahsildars of every taluk to serve show-cause notices to encroachers. "Tahsildars have no power other than serving notices. Assistant commissioners will scrutinise the replies and bring it to the notice of the committee. Encroachers have been given time till 31 January 2016 to reply to the notices of the district administration, which may be extended by another 8-10 days. Depending on the response by the encroachers, the committee will decide whether to regularise, levy penalty, evict or provide them with alternative sites or homes," Koliwad said.

I have few questions (pardon me if this is repeat, my search yielded minimal results)

1) How do you know/check what could be the life span of an apartment complex - Some say 30-40 years, some say 100 years. What factors determine the life of the building - like maintenance etc. I heard some concrete testing devices are available (handheld ones) but are the available and reliable ?

2) I am currently staying in a gated apartment complex, rated as one of the best in the city - however, i regularly see complaints that 50-120 tiles of the apartment are coming out, leakage issues, water problems. How these would affect eventually ? Let's say after 10-15 years of construction -- would the overheads be really high ? Like Residents welfare association charges, maintenance, water issues etc.Also, its tough finding skilled people who can work as gardener, cleaners, building repairers (which is also a good sign as people have better choices now) so can/would we be able to maintain buildings in the same pristine shape after few years (because the style, type of construction etc. is changing very frequently too)

3) Based on the above, how would a resale apartment be valued ? The one advantage of resale apartment is that you can see what you get (maybe !) Currently, in spite of the problems, 3 bhk apartments are listed at a price of 1.1 crore start price (with slight scope of negotiation) and no desperate sale so prices are held high. Need to check how many got sold for such high prices. These are not areas which are sea facing or part of the prime city area.

Anyone faced bad experience while renting out your apartment? We rented ours out to a young family with 3 kids and god the house has been dirtied like a cattle shed. There is drawings on the wall and the boy cycles inside the house, so there goes our flooring. Do you think there is something we can do to protect ourself?

DO note we had two previous tenants and they were just awesome. All single folks who kept the house clean. I do not understand how someone could live this way!

Quote:

Originally Posted by msvg

Any good residential plots,gated preferably in Mysore near to City centre like Palace or Railway station ? I am very keen to invest in Mysore as i plan to settle down there after a few years travelling around the world for on work. Looking for plots or Built houses in minimum 30*40 site or bigger dimensions well within considerable budgets.
Also want to put this question to everyone out there Is investing in premium property in Mysore a good investment ?

Mysore has become pricey so please do check around before you invest. Recently looked at a site of 60*40 in the city asking for 1.08 cr. You would be able to find sites around the ring road, but do search around.

Anyone faced bad experience while renting out your apartment? We rented ours out to a young family with 3 kids and god the house has been dirtied like a cattle shed. There is drawings on the wall and the boy cycles inside the house, so there goes our flooring. Do you think there is something we can do to protect ourself?

DO note we had two previous tenants and they were just awesome. All single folks who kept the house clean. I do not understand how someone could live this way!

Is it a ground floor apartment? If not please check with the family who stays below. I am facing lots of disturbance from a similar family who stays above me. They donít bother about how much disturbance they make to others. Morning onward starts dragging things on floor. Sometimes I feel like heavy stones are dragged over the floor. God knows the condition of tiles. Kids jumping at midnight, do cooking on floor (Can hear the hitting noise of steel/stone mortar from 5:00 AM onward)? Even though I informed them and my owner multiple times, there is no use.You can better avoid these kind of family.

I have few questions (pardon me if this is repeat, my search yielded minimal results)

1) How do you know/check what could be the life span of an apartment complex - Some say 30-40 years, some say 100 years. What factors determine the life of the building - like maintenance etc. I heard some concrete testing devices are available (handheld ones) but are the available and reliable ?

2) I am currently staying in a gated apartment complex, rated as one of the best in the city - however, i regularly see complaints that 50-120 tiles of the apartment are coming out, leakage issues, water problems. How these would affect eventually ? Let's say after 10-15 years of construction -- would the overheads be really high ? Like Residents welfare association charges, maintenance, water issues etc.Also, its tough finding skilled people who can work as gardener, cleaners, building repairers (which is also a good sign as people have better choices now) so can/would we be able to maintain buildings in the same pristine shape after few years (because the style, type of construction etc. is changing very frequently too)

3) Based on the above, how would a resale apartment be valued ? The one advantage of resale apartment is that you can see what you get (maybe !) Currently, in spite of the problems, 3 bhk apartments are listed at a price of 1.1 crore start price (with slight scope of negotiation) and no desperate sale so prices are held high. Need to check how many got sold for such high prices. These are not areas which are sea facing or part of the prime city area.

1. No real way of telling how an apartment complex will age. The two main factors would be how well it is constructed in the first place and how well it is maintained post construction. I have seen some 30+ year apartments that have had minimal problems since its existance, and some brand new ones that I wouldn't recommend to my worst enemy.

You can get a hand held device called the rebound hammer to test the density of concrete, but it's not a very accurate because it only tests a specific spot, and only genrally indicates the strength of the concrete

2. Their is a saying in architecture that I learnt many moons ago, 'Water Will Win'. In most cases the reason for leaks is bad construction practice and cutting corners, and this mainly happens because the person actually doing the work has a different level of percieved quality than the end user. You can have supervisors, but they can't be everywhere at once and if a mistake can be corrected later it is normally let go, which usually becomes the owners headache a couple of years later.

Another major reason in the past few years for water leakages is the quality of sand being used. I remember that one could get river sand 5 years ago for Rs.5000/truck. Today you can't get good quality river sand even if you pay Rs.40,000 because of the ban on mining river sand, so most builders get cheaper sand (from God know's where) which invariably has some quantity of clay mixed in it, and clay is the real enemy when it comes to keeping water out and you need a LOT of sand during construction.

Most apartment complexes are built using a concrete column/beam frame with an infill of block or brick on a typical foundation where each column is supported below ground on a concrete pad. Unfortunately, because of the drop in the water table all around Bangalore, some of the footings can settle which can lead to diagonal cracks in the wall, called settlement cracks which are not serious and should stabilise within a year. The only way to minimise the cracks is either to have more columns which means an increase in cost and also really screws up the parking layout, or you build something called a raft footing, which is like building a large concrete bathtub the size of the entire complex below ground to distribute the load (i.e instead of individual footings for each column you have one giant footing for all columns). This again is expensive so not done unless absolutely necessary.

Anyone faced bad experience while renting out your apartment? We rented ours out to a young family with 3 kids and god the house has been dirtied like a cattle shed. There is drawings on the wall and the boy cycles inside the house, so there goes our flooring. Do you think there is something we can do to protect ourself?

DO note we had two previous tenants and they were just awesome. All single folks who kept the house clean. I do not understand how someone could live this way!

Read them the riot act while renting out the house. Deduct heavily from the deposit - as is down south, min. deposits are six months, so you should be well covered! Alternatively, if they stayed long enough (three years or more), then it doesnt matter - a whitewash was due anyways.

btw cycling by boys in the house won't affect the flooring. Cricket or someone using pestle to grind, definitely will.

If you're really paranoid, ask to see where they currently stay. That will give you the best idea - but its not time efficient, doesnt work with outstation tenants and may scare a few off.

Best profile? Senior (mid 50s) executives with a traveling profile - they keep the house best!

1) How do you know what could be the life span of an apartment complex - Some say 30-40 years, some say 100 years..

This question makes as much sense as "How long would a car last?". The answer is "Forever", so long as you maintain it regularly and are prepared to shell out a lot of money once in a while for things like an engine overhaul and so on. Sometimes these expenses may be so high that you may consider buying a new car instead. Just like an old car, you need to constantly keep an eye out for symptoms, otherwise chances are that you would be hit with an exorbitant amount when you least expect it.

Recently I visited 2 restored houses belonging to relatives in Kerala. One is over a 100 years old and the other is 70 years old. Both houses have modern amenities, a new roof, fresh plaster, polished wood, etc. but more or less retain the old structure. The cost on both restorations though was so high that one could have used that as a part payment to build something bigger.

I am not familiar with condos, but the best way to find out if the buildings in your complex will be OK for the next few years is to have it inspected by a competent Structural Engineer who has experience in building inspections. Usually Structural Engineers associated with banks who do appraisal work for home loans have experience in this.

Quote:

Originally Posted by sunishsamuel

Let's say after 10-15 years of construction -- would the overheads be really high ?

After about 5 years in a well constructed house, structural problems that were not once visible will start appearing to the naked eye. Niggles (plumbing, electrical, paint problems, etc.) will be easily felt. After the 10 year mark, one would need to shell out a tidy amount to fix these.

The more a house ages, the more would be the frequency of big ticket items cropping up. If the residents association (in case of condos) anticipates these and has a sizable building fund (especially in the initial years when maintenance costs are low), these would be easier to manage. Buildings that you see in dilapidated condition are those that don't have a building fund and where at least some residents are unable to pay a share of the maintenance.

Quote:

Originally Posted by sunishsamuel

its tough finding skilled people who can work as gardener, cleaners, building repairers (which is also a good sign as people have better choices now)

Doubt that finding skilled people has anything to do with lack of demand. Finding anyone skilled is hard in Bangalore, but such people do exist.

Quote:

Originally Posted by sunishsamuel

3) Based on the above, how would a resale apartment be valued ?

Resale condos should be priced lower with age. But the real estate market in India is not really transparent, so everyone prices their apartment usually at a slight discount to a similar newly built apartment nearby.

I have few questions (pardon me if this is repeat, my search yielded minimal results)

^^ It is a complicated decision. There are 2 choices.
1) Go ahead and buy a home. You will have your own property. No concerns of shifting house frequently.
2) Take a rented house. No worries on any maintenance. Shift your home according to your convenient place.
I made a purchase in Bangalore. Many of the things you mentioned are happening for apartments which cost above a crore. I took it from a B grade builder here. My purchase experience was very good until I signed the agreement and made first payment i.e. the time I fall in their trap. Some of my observations.
1. Home theatre wiring for placing speakers. Only at rear side. They denied it though it was initially agreed as their construction team will do it and charge me extra. I asked for it even before they started construction and it was a bare land.
2. Provision to connect Geyser in kitchen. Sales team denied it but I got it done somehow later from construction team.
3. Tiles which they offered initially were Somany. Later it was converted to an unknown Chinese brand. When questioned, GM from sales team justified it as their team went to china and did some studies. Based on that they selected the best option available there and they directly imported it from there. Checked about this brand in many shops in Bangalore and no one aware of the brand. In fact there was some boxes where it is written as Polished vitrified tiles. No brand information and donít even know how long it will last.
4. Bathroom tiles were decade old models. Any hardware shop in Bangalore got better models and brands. No option for customer to upgrade. Only option was customer can take the one they are giving and buy tiles of their choice later based on interest. What should I do with the one they give me? I canít sell it or use it any ware else as I donít have another home here. Else try to sell in classifieds.
5. Windows were not fitting properly in provisions. Some pics attached. They were screwed in and for adjusting the height, used some metal pieces. Later they put white cement to cover the gap. On long run how long it will last, I am not sure.
6. Cracks on wall- Some of the flats got lot of cracks on wall. I donít know the reason behind. And some portion of plastering came out in hammering. After few days when I went, I was it was all covered with white cement and looks perfect for someone who doesnít know about this. I doubt highly that of someone try to put a nail on wall, chances of plaster falling off is there. Luckily I didnít see it in my flat.
7. Cheap/unskilled labours. You will see kids of age 10-20 in many of the construction sites. The way they handle things are not good. Especially in painting and masonry.
8. Contractors who do constructions. It is not always the builder who is responsible for all the quality issues. They may be doing only sales and marketing. Each stage of building construction will be done by a 3rd party contractor. It can even very from floor to floor. So you may see some floors of good quality and few are not.
Below are pics of quality issues i observed.

Is it a ground floor apartment? If not please check with the family who stays below. .

No this is the third floor, should have checked with my neighbours on this. I dont understand these folk. All my cousins have young kids and nobody has a house which looks like a cattle shed. When we did mention the walls being used as a canvas, the husband just shrugged his shoulder and said Children!

Are you serious!

Quote:

Originally Posted by phamilyman

Read them the riot act while renting out the house. Deduct heavily from the deposit - as is down south, min. deposits are six months, so you should be well covered! Alternatively, if they stayed long enough (three years or more), then it doesnt matter - a whitewash was due anyways.

btw cycling by boys in the house won't affect the flooring. Cricket or someone using pestle to grind, definitely will.

If you're really paranoid, ask to see where they currently stay. That will give you the best idea - but its not time efficient, doesnt work with outstation tenants and may scare a few off.

Best profile? Senior (mid 50s) executives with a traveling profile - they keep the house best!

Thanks for the advice Phamilyman! We had a Irani students as tenants before and they were awesome. After them we had a single girl living there who was great too. So i think the people renting out matter more than the age group. As usually Indian Bachelors are a No No for many Renters.

Your words was what i consoled my dad and mom with. Just either ask them to vacate or keep them for a while and hold their deposit. Its a 6 month deposit which we have.