PK - my right hip always does that - often on stairs too. As long as I'm not holding it, it doesn't click or anything while running. Never had a problem. Though it clicks a lot more on an eliptical. That's why I stay away from those devil machines.

Fingerboy good to know. Maybe we will get hip replacements at the same time.

All the talk of plans and training methods I just want to say yes alot of us are new to running, dont belong to clubs, dont mix with real life runners, are improving on basic things like mileage increase etc. I know that personalised plans are better but dont have the knowledge yet to implement them. The canned plans keep us in sort of the right direction at this stage.

Based on the last two posts, I'd say maybe Ryan Hall is a fan of Brad Hudson. No training plan, no coach, just does what he feels like doing when he wakes up.

And I'd say that Ryan Hall is an idiot who is crapping on his talent by his lack of professionalism. Could you imagine going to see a doctor about treating an illness, asking what he's done for similar patients in the past, and have him respond that he decided what to do about each of them when he woke up that day.

It's a free country, but it's still sad to see someone waste their gifts like Hall is.

Austin, that's a pretty slow 10k and half for a 17:44 5k. What was your mileage then? What is it now? Based on your 5k speed alone you should be running in the 2:40s.

Back when I ran 1744 I was doing 40-45 mpw. Now I do 60 mpw usually. I did some 120-140 mile weeks this summer though to see what they were like, I don't think they helped and running that much just makes running not fun anymore, but during a 127 mile week I did a hard 10 miler at 617 pace with no warm up or cool down, so I think I could definitely beat my 10k and half marathon prs right now. Last winter I did a 10k tempo solo when it was pitch black out and ran 3821, so I can definitely beat that pr lol.

I have no intention of ever running doubles again. Singles Mon-Sat with Sunday off is enough for me to feel confident about my fitness while not running so much that it isn't fun anymore. But good to hear 240s seems realistic. Btw the 1744 5k and 3824 10k (1 month after the 5k) were in 2010, and the 1:26:13 half marathon was in 2011.

What about 10k and half marathon goals? I plan on doing an occasional half marathon and maybe a 10k if I can find a good one. I'd be happy with sub 37 and sub 120. Are those good goals? or more like sub 36 and sub 120?

NotAustin: Never say never -- there's a lot of room between singles in the 60s and 140-mile weeks. And you won't gain anything from a couple of weeks running no matter what you do. Volume should be built over a long time, and the adaptations come gradually. Even Rupp is at just 105 mpw, and only adds 5 miles per week per year.

As for goals, if you can push your 5k down into the low 16s then eventually you should be able to run a sub-34 10k and a sub-1:15 half. It's actually sensible to train for distances from 5k-half marathon all at once, with sharpening sequences placed nearest your goal events of a particular season.

If you're in sub-17 shape now then you should be able to go 36-mid for 10k and 1:22 for the half. But do the training that suits you best for the time being and try not to get hung up in the numbers.

NotAustin: Never say never -- there's a lot of room between singles in the 60s and 140-mile weeks. And you won't gain anything from a couple of weeks running no matter what you do. Volume should be built over a long time, and the adaptations come gradually. Even Rupp is at just 105 mpw, and only adds 5 miles per week per year.

As for goals, if you can push your 5k down into the low 16s then eventually you should be able to run a sub-34 10k and a sub-1:15 half. It's actually sensible to train for distances from 5k-half marathon all at once, with sharpening sequences placed nearest your goal events of a particular season.

If you're in sub-17 shape now then you should be able to go 36-mid for 10k and 1:22 for the half. But do the training that suits you best for the time being and try not to get hung up in the numbers.

Ok that's good to know(about the 10k and half marathon times). And I know you have to take a long time approach and stay a long time to get a benefit at a certain weekly mileage, but I was just kind of doing it to see whats it like. I had nothing better to do since its summer. It was cool at first looking at the mileage, but it just gets really tough mentally and isn't fun anymore (for me at least) when I have to worry about doing 12 in the morning and come back for another 8 in the afternoon.

I like running once a day 6 days a week more and have gotten better results with it. It keeps things fresh, because there's a full 24 hours between runs, and it's not very mentally tough or intimidating because its only one run a day. Also, when I was doing high mileage doubles I disliked how I couldn't do anything with friends because I had to run. Once a day is more manageable.

And I'm not interested too much in making big gains in the mileage anymore, 60 mpw is a nice little sweet spot for the 5k and 75 for the marathon(when I move up). Those are manageable on one run a day(for me). I know it isn't going to maximize my potential and what not, but I've just come to accept(finally) that a sub 16 5k and sub 237 marathon(sub 6 pace marathon just sounds cool) are good long term goals and totally achievable with one run a day; meanwhile if I incrementally added 5mpw per year for 10 years to peak at 110 when I'm 28 I'd run faster, but probably not too much faster and that sacrifice of time and commitment to take an extra 30ish seconds off my 5k and say 5-10 minutes off my marathon over the course of 10 years doesn't seem worth it to me. I'm happy with where I'm at and think my long term goals are achievable without fully committing myself to running at the cost of other things in my life.

My 5K didn't go as planned. I fell into my old habits and went out to fast. 5:27 first mile running with the leader. I fell off at 1.25 miles and slowed to near MP. Got a side stitch and walked for about 20 seconds on the hill. That said, I picked it up hard after the hill and ran it in as hard as I could for the last 800, finishing in 18:50 and winning my age group. Small field, sunny, hot and humid weather, and a tough course (besides the hill it had dirt and woodchip trails and a 30 foot long stairway.) So I'll call it a learning experience and a decent work out. After warm up and cool down it was a 10 mile day. The best part is failure is a good motivator, I feel more motivated to up my game then I have in weeks.

Workouts don't make you faster or stronger. Recovering from workouts makes you faster and stronger.

430, Sorry about the 5k. Those races in the middle of summer are hit or miss. Spring and fall 5Ks have been more consistent for me. Another trick is to find a race with 5 or less turns. But 18:50 is only 5 seconds off your PR so when it comes together you will be good. Find another one soon and try again, get a course map, no stairs. Wood chips are fine but 30 steps BRAKES stride, pun intended. Do your 5K specific training 7X1K or 8x200, plus 4x400, plus 2x800. What was your time through the first mile?? I typically run a 5K even, or go out fast a 5K is a front loaded race so don't beat yourself up because you went out hard, go out hard, float home or run even splits. My only warning is if you are an 18:00 flat runner you cant go out in 5:00.

PiwiKiwi: All the talk of plans and training methods I just want to say yes alot of us are new to running, dont belong to clubs, dont mix with real life runners, are improving on basic things like mileage increase etc. I know that personalised plans are better but dont have the knowledge yet to implement them. The canned plans keep us in sort of the right direction at this stage.

Amen to this.

430: Sorry. The shorter the race; the more hit and miss it is for me. Obviously you're in (much) better shape than that but at least it was an all-right workout?

colefund: Good luck!

I'm in the Northwest for the week at a wedding. I'm running up every mountain I can find on my runs and it feels great.

it seems you've made up your mind about training without any real tests. how many weeks did you do your high mileage? how many miles have you run each month since january?

and 60 mpw isn't that much. you can do way more on purely singles, and a double or two per week doesn't have to take much time. just 30 minutes easy right before dinner or something

so, what happened to your plan of moving in with other runners to do 120 mpw and run 2:30 marathons?

Since January monthly mileages in order have been: 286.25, 291, 278, 235, 405, 447.3, 471.

And I experimented with the high mileage partly to see if I liked it. I thought high mileage would be fun, and it was at first, but then it became a chore. I didn't do it long enough to know whether or not it did anything for me, but mentally, I just don't like it. When I'm doing that much, it just isn't fun anymore, and makes me dread running.

Around 60 mpw I've had my biggest gains in the past. It's a good sweet spot for me. Only singles 6 days a week allows for good quality and keeps it fun because its only 6 runs a week. Too many runs in a week becomes monotonous (for me at least). When I move up to the marathon, I'll do about 75 mpw, but 60 mpw is my goal for the 5k and likely the next couple years.

And yeah, I guess I'm not going to get a high mileage group together hah. High mileage isn't my thing. Its not an injury issue, its a mental issue. I just get too much mental fatigue on high mileage, which causes my quality in training to decline. As for a long term marathon goal, I'd like to run under 2:37, because that is a sub 6 minute mile pace which I think would just be cool.

Getting back into full swing, with some high mileage and back too the track. Managed 95 miles with a Friday track workout of 6x1200 at about 6:05 pace, a Wednesday of 19 miles and 20 plus today in some nasty heat and humidity. Considering the heat, I felt surprisingly good at mile 20, granted my fastest mile was 8:10.

55 miles for me, 2x medium long 13 and 15 miles, The 15 mile one included a tempo run of 6 @6:18 and avg speed for the whole run was @MP. When I ended it I was still fresh in the legs - big confidence booster.

Foolishly sticking to running the way I like to run (no plan, low mileage, always fast&hellip, this was my week:

Mon - 6 miles @ 6:20

Tue - 4 miles @ 6:10

Wed - 9 miles @ 6:46

Thu – 0

Fri – 0

Sat – 0

Sun 19 miles at 7:00

Total 38 miles.

Sundays 19 mile run didn’t feel very hard, despite the second half going quite fast (6:42). I still (naively) think a sub-three marathon is not impossible – at least 3:05 should be realistic. (I expect more comments on being absurd, arrogant and insulting&hellip

Wrapped up a 65 mile week with a 1:29 HM in Quebec City. First half was all uphill. Second half was mostly even. Last 11km (7 miles) was at 4:05/km with final mile at 6:35. Beautiful city. decent course. Fantastic finish area.

My week was a bit of a turd. Failed tempo on Tuesday, tried out my new wave sayonaras on my Friday easy run and seemed to strain my Achilles a bit. Cut that run short and took Saturday off so only got 50 miles in when I was planning 57. Thursdays strength run was pretty good. Also did a good 18 today and my Achilles was fine but I don't get credit for todays run for last week to scrub off any of the turd status.

One question - there is a HM race close to where I live two weeks before my FM. Is that to close for a "tune up" race? Perhaps not going "all in" on the last 5k?

I think it'd be pushing the envelope, but I don't see why not. Just make sure to take the day after completely off and go straight into a taper after the half. I'd still race the half all out; it's a race, no reason to hold back.

One question - there is a HM race close to where I live two weeks before my FM. Is that to close for a "tune up" race? Perhaps not going "all in" on the last 5k?

I think it'd be pushing the envelope, but I don't see why not. Just make sure to take the day after completely off and go straight into a taper after the half. I'd still race the half all out; it's a race, no reason to hold back.

I recommend refraining from offering advice until you're run a marathon.

Marathon 8b: 2 weeks out is too close to your marathon. Three weeks out is as close as I would advise, and even that is not ideal. Some might suggest running the half at marathon pace. Beware, should you choose this option: race day excitement might turn a good, conservative plan into a half-baked race that would require recovery and not serve a good training purpose.

A Muse - you should do online clinics for the guys in here. They could learn so much from you if they paid attention.

Nils - Sub 3:00 is still possible. Do your speed workouts on the bike. I wouldn't necessarily ride hills. Do intensity on a flat road. I ride on a service road and I do supplemental 5K training on the bike. I consistently ran fast when I add bike workouts. The key is to act as though you are on the track, Ride your intervals as time as oppose to distance. So if you are doing a 3:17 1K, ride at intensity for 3:20 then recover 90 secs to 2 mins. I would not try to be Marco Pantani instead be Marcel Kittel in your bike workouts. I started doing interval training on the bike in summer of 2009 and got below 16 in a 5k that same fall. I am seeing people and articles talking about bike as a means to do intervals a lot lately, I'm here to say it worked for me. Then again results will vary as with anything.

Mikkey - How are you doing? I would still aim high in Guernsey. How did the move go? Are you all settled in your new flat?

I'm doing great thanks and I finally moved into my dream house last Friday which has awesome sea views!

I injured my back and ran a total of 112 miles for June and July, but I did some cross training and my fitness is coming back quicker than expected, so yeah, I will be aiming high! Unfortunately my chances of a top 3 podium finish and whipping it out are not looking great right now as a Kenyan in 2:12 shape is running Guernsey, and another guy with a PR of 2:17 is also running it..he paced the elite women in Barcelona this year to 2:34. But I'm not throwing in the towel just yet as they could get food poisoning at the pre-race pasta party. Last years top 3 finish times were 2:42,2:43 and 2:51 so we'll see...

I recommend refraining from offering advice until you're run a marathon.

Haha fair enough. In high school my coaches always cited a couple scientific studies saying your body retains fatigue from the last 10 days of training in your legs and it takes 8-12 days to adapt to a workout, so I've always thought 2 weeks was enough. But the marathon is a whole other monster, maybe the study their citing wasn't testing marathon runners...

Austin: I see what you mean. Well, I tend to use those findings to schedule workouts for various races. If supercompensation occurs after 10 days, then you want a really good stimulus right around that point in time. But there are other things to consider, as you reason. Recovery is major, since the demands of some marathon-oriented workouts are significant. The marathon taper is there partly for recovery, but also to prime the pump, as it were, as you rid the body of fatigue. If you go too deep in the well with a late, huge workout (or half marathon race), then you need to use the taper to recover, and the priming/sharpening function is lost.

Racing and training are obviously different things, too. I find half marathons really hard to recover from. I now have a policy of no workouts at all (just easy running) in at least the week following the race, even if I'm in a period of heavy training. I've gotten dinged up so many times trying to resume hard training too soon. Of course, I'm 25 years older than you, and recovery from hard efforts is a lot different now than it used to be.

@A muse, so out of curiosity then, is a marathon taper supposed to be 3 weeks? and the half marathon 4 weeks before?

I want to develop some 5k speed before moving up, but what would a marathon taper look like if my regular training for the marathon is 75 mpw with a 16 mile(peaking at 18 miles for 2 weeks) long run? Would it be 4 weeks out 75 mpw 18 mile long run, 3 weeks out 65 mpw 15 mile long run, 2 weeks out 50 mpw 12 mile long run, last week only 4-6 mile runs leading up to the race.

I'm just trying to get a good idea of what a marathon taper looks like, thanks in advance.

Trying to jump back into training after hurting my knee last week. Spent a lot of time with an ice pack and foam roller to recover. Slowed down most of my runs to see how I was feeling.

Sunday - 20.25 @ 7:20/mi

Saturday - 5K race in 18:50. 1.6 cool-down @ 8:30-9:00/mi

Friday - Rest

Thursday - 10.25 miles @ 7:42/mi

Wednesday - 8.1 @ 7:41/mi

Tuesday - 6.1 @ 8:21/mi

Monday - Rest

Took a couple risks. Went faster than I thought I was going to go with the 5K. Then went long the day after and did miles 14-19 @ 6:50. Long run was faster than usual overall. Felt good. Feel good now. Going to tone back the speed in the next six weeks, so I don't get hurt leading up to my race.

I'm also in a similar situation regarding the half marathon. Running one 4 weeks before my marathon and was planning to go marathon race pace, maybe a little slower.

For the more experienced guys how long did it take your body to adapt to 50-60 mpw? My legs continue to protest some after about three months averaging over 50. Needless to say I will be staying under 60 mpw this year. Hopefully that will be enough for sub 3.

There is no try - what do you mean by protest? Joints, muscle, or fatigue? You've just started running some miles slow, so give that a few weeks and see how you feel.

I think I'm on a similar trajectory as you, and my legs are feeling great these days. I attribute it to keeping my long run shortish and running lots of slow miles. I'm frequently over 9:00 pace on recovery runs. I was a wreck this spring getting over 40 mpw on pfitz.

I'm doing great thanks and I finally moved into my dream house last Friday which has awesome sea views!

I injured my back and ran a total of 112 miles for June and July, but I did some cross training and my fitness is coming back quicker than expected, so yeah, I will be aiming high! Unfortunately my chances of a top 3 podium finish and whipping it out are not looking great right now as a Kenyan in 2:12 shape is running Guernsey, and another guy with a PR of 2:17 is also running it..he paced the elite women in Barcelona this year to 2:34. But I'm not throwing in the towel just yet as they could get food poisoning at the pre-race pasta party. Last years top 3 finish times were 2:42,2:43 and 2:51 so we'll see...

Any luck on the job front?

Mikkey - Sorry to hear about your back. If the Kenyans really show up that nice little quaint race may grow in popularity. So much for us blue collar runners ever winning another one.

On the home front all seems nice. You went from Basement to Penthouse from the sound of the spectacular sea views.

As for job search, it continues. I got an offer but it was way too low. So I'm looking at another two options. I'm OK financially, so I wont take lowball offers.

Feel better take it easy on the back. And even if by chance you make it to the podium, Leave the whipping it out to Nils. Unless of course they are F1 like girls awarding the prizes. You Europeans love a podium girl in spandex or pretty dresses. Award envy.... in the states its usually some old frump.

For the more experienced guys how long did it take your body to adapt to 50-60 mpw? My legs continue to protest some after about three months averaging over 50. Needless to say I will be staying under 60 mpw this year. Hopefully that will be enough for sub 3.

55 Miles this week

Monday 6 @ 8:23

Tuesday 9.5 @ 7:32 with 5 @MP

Wednesday 6 @ 8:35

Thursday 8 @ 7:45 overall on track incl. 7x1000 on 3:45-3:50

Friday 6 @ 8:13

Saturday 14.5 @ 7:45

Sunday 5 @ 8:15

First off, you should rest on Sunday. Resting is a lot better than an extra short 4-5 mile run at the end of the week. A run that short during 50-60 mpw in singles isn't going to do much for you. Resting and allowing your body to recover is more beneficial. Plus think of it as being better safe than sorry. And when most of your runs are 6-8 miles, a 14.5 mile run is going to be pretty tough. Get most of your runs to 8-10 with say a medium long run (maybe with some of it at MP) of 12 and then a 14-16 on Saturday. At least that is what I would recommend.

And according to multiple people I've talked to, they believe that it takes about 6 months for your body to fully adapt to higher tier of mileage. So remember, if 40 mpw feels easy and normal, if you bump to 50-60 it'll take 6 months until 50-60 feels easy and normal but in say a month it may feel tolerable though. And my personal experiences agree with these things my friends have told me.

Marathon 8b - that's a fast week and quite absurd you've obviously got talent and may yet pull off a sub 3. Like I said, if you enjoy running that way, go nuts.

Thanks...!

One question - there is a HM race close to where I live two weeks before my FM. Is that to close for a "tune up" race? Perhaps not going "all in" on the last 5k?

Marathon 8b - What marathon are you running? What has been your longest run to date??

nimmalS -I'm running Oslo marathon (Norway), september 21.

My longest run so far has been a trail marathon last summer - (8 weeks after I took up running) - finishing 3:28. Very different from the relatively flat race in september.

Piwi Kiwi - of course I would have to drop pace a lot if I was to run the mileage most people here post. I just don't have the time nor motivation to do that. I dont't like to run every day, but when I run I like to run fast. This year I started running in the beginning of may (I ski during winter), and have run a total of 357 miles since then. It has just become my own little personal experiment to see if training the way (and amount) I do could get me through a sub-three marathon - (possible, but perhaps not probable). I'm not saying this is a good way to train for a marathon, but it also takes very little time.

For the more experienced guys how long did it take your body to adapt to 50-60 mpw? My legs continue to protest some after about three months averaging over 50. Needless to say I will be staying under 60 mpw this year. Hopefully that will be enough for sub 3.

55 Miles this week

Monday 6 @ 8:23

Tuesday 9.5 @ 7:32 with 5 @MP

Wednesday 6 @ 8:35

Thursday 8 @ 7:45 overall on track incl. 7x1000 on 3:45-3:50

Friday 6 @ 8:13

Saturday 14.5 @ 7:45

Sunday 5 @ 8:15

First off, you should rest on Sunday. Resting is a lot better than an extra short 4-5 mile run at the end of the week. A run that short during 50-60 mpw in singles isn't going to do much for you. Resting and allowing your body to recover is more beneficial. Plus think of it as being better safe than sorry. And when most of your runs are 6-8 miles, a 14.5 mile run is going to be pretty tough. Get most of your runs to 8-10 with say a medium long run (maybe with some of it at MP) of 12 and then a 14-16 on Saturday. At least that is what I would recommend.

And according to multiple people I've talked to, they believe that it takes about 6 months for your body to fully adapt to higher tier of mileage. So remember, if 40 mpw feels easy and normal, if you bump to 50-60 it'll take 6 months until 50-60 feels easy and normal but in say a month it may feel tolerable though. And my personal experiences agree with these things my friends have told me.

IMHO "Absolute nonsense" disclaimer YMMV, I went to 55-60MPW for abou 6 weeks after taking most of May and early June completely off due to injury. I just started marathon training and I went 55, 105.5, 87, 110 and might add on 7 miles in an hour and finished my 20 miler in hills at 12:30 this afternoon. When I average 55 MPW I feel lethargic, when I average 80-120 I feel invincible. Again the disclaimer YMMV.

I don't think fitness gains are necessarily linear or predictable, so it is hard to know how long it will take for mileage increases to 'take effect.' A lot of the patterns you set up in running should reflect your preferences. If you feel you need and profit from days completely off, then take them. I like running every day, so I only take a day off every few months.