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I remembered another strange thing about the chapel scene with Shannon: Will and Bern were talking in the upper layer chapel, and Will remained there all the way up until Leon arrived. How did Shannon even hear them from the lower layer reception area in the first place, let alone actually get inside?

Maybe she was deliberately moved there by Bern to feed Will some information?

__________________

"Something has fallen on us that falls very seldom on men; perhaps the worst thing that can fall on them. We have found the truth; and the truth makes no sense."

Now, Yasu = Baby given to Natsuhi who fell off the cliff?
(Because, this is a 1/2.5mil miracle. Normally the baby dies?)

Yasu =/= Shannon.
Because Yasu is the "new employee, 10 years younger then everyone else" And Shannon was roommates with Yasu even. So they can't be one in the same?

Yasu = Beatrice
When possessed by Gaap, and used magic. He/She gave up servant life, and became the witch of the night.

Shannon = Beatrice
Because she gave her love of Battler to Beatrice to safekeep?
Besides, Yasu acts more like how Shannon is normally. (Aka, Clumsy. And always getting scolded by Natsuhi)

Shannon =?= Kanon
Obviously, Shkannon shouldn't have to be discussed.
But still, they just mentioned Shannon getting a younger brother to ease her pain. And scene cut.
Doesn't necessarily mean she created Kanon. He could have been a new employee.

Beatrice =?= Claire
(Was it just that Claire was in charge of the theater, and she was playing the part of Beatrice?

Beatrice = Leon
Kinzo was talking to Beatrice, and corrected himself to say Leon.

Please tell me I messed up somewhere?
And if not, why was there Yasu + Shannon back in 1980?

Wasn't Shannon (around) 12 at that time? And Yasu was 10 years younger then the other employees?
[Well, I may have messed up, and Yasu started before 1980. Then it proceeds to it eventually in story. So Yasu's age might match up with Shannon]

Or was Shannon (or Yasu) a figment of the other's imagination. (Rather, Pesonality. If that makes it any better. Such as Shannon+Kanon compared to Sayo)

[Edit] And if Yasu = Shannon, and the rest of it is true. What about the 6 other games where the baby is killed? [/Edit]

----------

And offtopic, but still slightly ontopic because of Claire.
I must have missed it, but where does it say she was Will's wife? And the portait painter?

I'm pretty sure I didn't come across that text in story. (Or maybe I did and forgot)
I didn't really read the tips, but I didn't see "SSVD" or "Willard H Wright" and such in her tips.

Spoiler for White text battle!:

Was anything really said here?
Claire brings up Game X, Twilight X.
Then Will counters with Ashes to Ashes, Dust to Dust.
And says a single line per twilight to counter it.

Example of 1st game, 1st twilight

Quote:

「第１のゲーム、第一の晩。園芸倉庫に、６人の死体。」

「幻は幻に。

……土には帰れぬ骸が、幻に帰る。」

Now, I know Claire just said something like "1st Twilight of the 1st Game, The 6 Corpses in the Gardening Shed."

But I don't want to try embarrassing myself by attempting to give an English translation for Will's counter.

So I request if someone could translate his line, so I can imagine how that would be applied to the rest of the twilights.

Finally, they mentioned that problem with Battler's leaving wasn't that he left. But that he came back.
I didn't catch if they expanded on -why- Battler came back would trigger the catastrophe. I mean, I guess I can try to infer it for myself, but did they flat out mention the reason and did I miss it?

Now, Yasu = Baby given to Natsuhi who fell off the cliff?
(Because, this is a 1/2.5mil miracle. Normally the baby dies?)

Yasu =/= Shannon.
Because Yasu is the "new employee, 10 years younger then everyone else" And Shannon was roommates with Yasu even. So they can't be one in the same?

Yasu = Beatrice
When possessed by Gaap, and used magic. He/She gave up servant life, and became the witch of the night.

Shannon = Beatrice
Because she gave her love of Battler to Beatrice to safekeep?
Besides, Yasu acts more like how Shannon is normally. (Aka, Clumsy. And always getting scolded by Natsuhi)

Shannon =?= Kanon
Obviously, Shkannon shouldn't have to be discussed.
But still, they just mentioned Shannon getting a younger brother to ease her pain. And scene cut.
Doesn't necessarily mean she created Kanon. He could have been a new employee.

Beatrice =?= Claire
(Was it just that Claire was in charge of the theater, and she was playing the part of Beatrice?

Beatrice = Leon
Kinzo was talking to Beatrice, and corrected himself to say Leon.

Please tell me I messed up somewhere?
And if not, why was there Yasu + Shannon back in 1980?

Wasn't Shannon (around) 12 at that time? And Yasu was 10 years younger then the other employees?
[Well, I may have messed up, and Yasu started before 1980. Then it proceeds to it eventually in story. So Yasu's age might match up with Shannon]

Or was Shannon (or Yasu) a figment of the other's imagination. (Rather, Pesonality. If that makes it any better. Such as Shannon+Kanon compared to Sayo)

[Edit] And if Yasu = Shannon, and the rest of it is true. What about the 6 other games where the baby is killed? [/Edit]

----------

And offtopic, but still slightly ontopic because of Claire.
I must have missed it, but where does it say she was Will's wife? And the portait painter?

I'm pretty sure I didn't come across that text in story. (Or maybe I did and forgot)
I didn't really read the tips, but I didn't see "SSVD" or "Willard H Wright" and such in her tips.

Basically, it's how you put it. The one who solved the Epitaph and became Beatrice was Yasu. Then when she meets Kinzo, he calls her Lyon, because that's the name he intended to give her.

About Shannon during 1980's, it's possible there was a real Shannon at some point, but after she left, Yasu made up an imaginary one.

The miracle Lyon was the one from the happy world - i.e. the one in which Natsuhi decides to adopt that baby.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Realus

Spoiler for White text battle!:

Was anything really said here?
Claire brings up Game X, Twilight X.
Then Will counters with Ashes to Ashes, Dust to Dust.
And says a single line per twilight to counter it.

Example of 1st game, 1st twilight

Now, I know Claire just said something like "1st Twilight of the 1st Game, The 6 Corpses in the Gardening Shed."

But I don't want to try embarrassing myself by attempting to give an English translation for Will's counter.

So I request if someone could translate his line, so I can imagine how that would be applied to the rest of the twilights.

Finally, they mentioned that problem with Battler's leaving wasn't that he left. But that he came back.
I didn't catch if they expanded on -why- Battler came back would trigger the catastrophe. I mean, I guess I can try to infer it for myself, but did they flat out mention the reason and did I miss it?

Basically, whenever Will says "幻は幻に" it means there's trickery to that scene. For example, for EP1's second Twilight, the door wasn't actually locked. It's the same for the chapel's door during EP2's first twilight.

__________________

"The name is Tin; Used is just an alias. I'm everything Shoe Box would like to be." - Used Can of the Aluminium Kingdom

Now, Yasu = Baby given to Natsuhi who fell off the cliff?
(Because, this is a 1/2.5mil miracle. Normally the baby dies?)

Yasu =/= Shannon.
Because Yasu is the "new employee, 10 years younger then everyone else" And Shannon was roommates with Yasu even. So they can't be one in the same?

Yasu = Beatrice
When possessed by Gaap, and used magic. He/She gave up servant life, and became the witch of the night.

Shannon = Beatrice
Because she gave her love of Battler to Beatrice to safekeep?
Besides, Yasu acts more like how Shannon is normally. (Aka, Clumsy. And always getting scolded by Natsuhi)

Shannon =?= Kanon
Obviously, Shkannon shouldn't have to be discussed.
But still, they just mentioned Shannon getting a younger brother to ease her pain. And scene cut.
Doesn't necessarily mean she created Kanon. He could have been a new employee.

Beatrice =?= Claire
(Was it just that Claire was in charge of the theater, and she was playing the part of Beatrice?

Beatrice = Leon
Kinzo was talking to Beatrice, and corrected himself to say Leon.

Please tell me I messed up somewhere?
And if not, why was there Yasu + Shannon back in 1980?

Wasn't Shannon (around) 12 at that time? And Yasu was 10 years younger then the other employees?
[Well, I may have messed up, and Yasu started before 1980. Then it proceeds to it eventually in story. So Yasu's age might match up with Shannon]

Or was Shannon (or Yasu) a figment of the other's imagination. (Rather, Pesonality. If that makes it any better. Such as Shannon+Kanon compared to Sayo)

----------

And offtopic, but still slightly ontopic because of Claire.
I must have missed it, but where does it say she was Will's wife? And the portait painter?

I'm pretty sure I didn't come across that text in story. (Or maybe I did and forgot)
I didn't really read the tips, but I didn't see "SSVD" or "Willard H Wright" and such in her tips.

There's a lot of different versions of Beatrice, so you have to watch out which one you are talking about. Also, if Yasu does have multiple personalities, there exists many persona within.

Spoiler for ep7:

Yasu (Beatrice the 3rd, child of Beatrice the 2nd + Kinzo), is indeed the baby that was given to Natushi. Beatrice the 3rd fell down the cliff within a couple days under Natsuhi's care (only in the super rare chance that Natushi actually accepts the baby that Beatrice the 3rd becomes the scucessor, Lion). However, Genji has said that the baby survived, was treated by Nanjo, and was hidden at the orphanage. There the baby was given the nickname, Yasu.

Yasu = Shannon
If you look at the time line, and the events happened later, you can see that Yasu = Shannon. Yasu is depicted as "too young to be a servant" and "not the regular age of junior/senior high students". Shannon left the orphanage and joined the family at age 6 (from ep2? 3?).

Yasu = Claire
Years after, Yasu decided to be the "Rule of the night of Rokkenjima", thus Claire. Yasu "goes away", and Shannon remains.

Here's the messy part: Heartbroken Shannon.

Claire moves the loving heart from Shannon to Beato (was there 2 Beato here? I think it was another Beato who played with Maria, but it should still be Beatrice the 3rd who was doing it.). In return, Claire says Shannon would get a brother soon, which later turns out to be Kanon. Although I've been supporting the theory of Shannon=Kanon since ep4, I don't think this is the final nail to the coffin. Many events and clues sides with the theory, and more appear in ep7, but there's still no absolute confirmation for that.

Beato = Beatrice, the next head of the family.
After solving the epitaph, Beato was given the family head title, and the title of Beatrice.

Due to the fantasy nature of the whole sequence, it's probably the safest to use "Beatrice the 3rd" for most human events. It's "Beatrice the 3rd" who fell in love with Battler, solved the epitaph, pretend to be Beatrice to play with Maria, and so on.

There is none. Actually, it is perhaps yet another mystery about Battler.
The point is that Battler sure took his time to join Rudolf, before the latter got revenge killed by Eva.

I first thought it was Kyrie who killed him, stalking behind him when he left the guesthouse (even if she put that test on Rudolf, perhaps she just didn't bother in the end), but the narration certainly didn't hint that one bit.

So it is very likely that Battler found something that distracted him or even made him avoid being killed. The problem is to figure what or... "who".

I should say that given the entire extent as to how Yasu apparently suffers from Dissociative Identity Disorder, even though many of the patterns do not fit the classic profile that R07 is apparently using for his own ends, it suddenly hit me that when you consider the possibility of a "controlling personality" (Yasu?) that has some degree of control over the subservient personalities (Shannon/Kanon?/Claire/Beatrice/etc.), it reminds me of a character from a video game:

Fei Fong Wong of Xenogears

Considering that the profiling for Fei is complete, similar patterns might be derived from them. Fei, and apparently Yasu, from their base personalities use a method of "layering" personalities on top of each other as a response to external stimuli. Yasu layers newly created personalities as a response to events around him/her, all the while a base personality is able to control the manifestations from behind the scenes.

Psychological speaking this is probably not unheard of. A strong omniscient personality governing them, like Fei did in the form of Id, would have had the ability to control not only who manifests when but also control the access of each personality to the collective memory pool of the individual: some might only have memories when they are the manifested personality, some might get bits and pieces, while the dominant controller has access to everything.

This might be the explanation as to how, throughout the games, there seems to be a radical shifting between personalities almost at will and yet hinted that the manifested personalities are not aware of each other, because a controller is consciously planning who is presented, when, how, for some means to an end.

Similarly to Fei, his original personality hid away and abandoned control and exposure to the sub personalities while still maintaining an observership role that can see the experiences of the other personalities but itself no longer made manifest. For Yasu, the suggestion of a hidden observer personality might not be far fetched, as a personality who has abandoned an active role and let the other personalities take control.

The question becomes, if the real Yasu of 19 years ago that had been abandoned has locked himself away, which of the other personalities is the dominant one?

Again, this is all speculation on the assumption the multiple personality shtick is valid.

Crap I may be on to something here. Time to finish the game and get my psychiatry textbook.

There is none. Actually, it is perhaps yet another mystery about Battler.
The point is that Battler sure took his time to join Rudolf, before the latter got revenge killed by Eva.

Yeah, I thought the same thing. We see him going out of the guesthouse and complaining, but he never reached the chapel.

Either way, perhaps this confirms that Battler is Amakusa?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Klashikari

I first thought it was Kyrie who killed him, stalking behind him when he left the guesthouse (even if she put that test on Rudolf, perhaps she just didn't bother in the end), but the narration certainly didn't hint that one bit.

So it is very likely that Battler found something that distracted him or even made him avoid being killed. The problem is to figure what or... "who".

I wonder if Lyon did it, but all the same, Kyrie supposedly killed her. I don't think she can be that bad of a shooter and fail twice.

Quote:

Originally Posted by MeoTwister5

Psychological speaking this is probably not unheard of.

I've actually asked several people who I believe knowledgeable on the subject, and all of them have told me DID doesn't work this way. At best, and this is rather rare, you get a personality that may be aware of the other ones, but that's as far as it goes.

If Yasu indeed suffers from DID, then Ithink we'll just have to accept that this is R07's own take on the matter and changed the way it works, as most writers in fiction do.

__________________

"The name is Tin; Used is just an alias. I'm everything Shoe Box would like to be." - Used Can of the Aluminium Kingdom

I've actually asked several people who I believe knowledgeable on the subject, and all of them have told me DID doesn't work this way. At best, and this is rather rare, you get a personality that may be aware of the other ones, but that's as far as it goes.

If Yasu indeed suffers from DID, then Ithink we'll just have to accept that this is R07's own take on the matter and changed the way it works, as most writers in fiction do.

Yeah as I said classical DID does not work this way, but the formation mechanisms have some similarities. Personality formation under this disorder stems from stimuli and not from a conscious control of personality formation that goes so far as to be able to create completely discrete and different entities at one's desire. If this was even remotely possible then you'd think a lot more people would be capable of this.

Assuming R07 plans to stick to actual psychiatry, the most probable explanation of an overarching personality would be purely incidental, as in while we could consider Yasu as the core personality, it was only by pure chance that the core personality ended up being capable of being witness to the other personalities he formed as defense mechanisms to his experiences. Direct control is likely to be completely impossible even in fiction, and it is just as likely that whoever the more dominant personality is, his awareness at most only allows him to use the switching situations to his advantage even if he does not control them rather than being able to switch them in and out at will.

Now assuming Ro7 decides to go pure fiction and rewrite the concept for his own ends, then all bets are off.

But this doesn't erase the fact that even in real psychology, a person with DID can have one of the personalities to be more subjectively dominant than the rest. As I questioned before, who is the more dominant one? There are times when I don't even think Yasu is the dominant personality.

That's an interesting point Meo. I think it seems to imply that the Beatrice personality is dominant as it always knows what the others are thinking before even they do. They only seem to try to 'resist' when they have a full fledged love with George/Jessica, but they seem to be aware that even if they don't do what Beatrice wants it probably will not matter anyways. Thus they just say they'll ignore her as a form of resistance or try to disrupt her image.

Is that whole Kannon= Shannon thing confirmed by a red text?
I mean its obvious that she was Beatrice in EP one , but it somehow doesn't sound right...
There is a limit to naivety, even if we are talking about George....

It would work much better if it was the the other way around, but still questio

Edit: i also have a problem with some with it due to some Red-Blue conversations between Erika and Beato

But this doesn't erase the fact that even in real psychology, a person with DID can have one of the personalities to be more subjectively dominant than the rest. As I questioned before, who is the more dominant one? There are times when I don't even think Yasu is the dominant personality.

Hard to say, but in EP7 we saw Yasu coming up with everything. So, I think it's safe to assume she is, but who knows?

Quote:

Originally Posted by AC-Phoenix

Is that whole Kannon= Shannon thing confirmed by a red text?

No, but it was made clear as day when Will asked Shannon to call for Kanon, and she BSOD'd.

__________________

"The name is Tin; Used is just an alias. I'm everything Shoe Box would like to be." - Used Can of the Aluminium Kingdom