Searching for Amiens

Both Roger and myself own a copy of the Autosport Directory 1955, in which is a map of the Amiens circuit that was used briefly in the early 1950s.

Picture from the 1955 Autosport Directory

The description of the circuit in that book says that it is due north of the city, using part of the main N.16 road (the Dunkerque road.)

A look at a modern road atlas will quickly show that there is NO N.16 near Amiens. The road that runs north towards the coast is the N.25. I gather that road numbers have been known to be altered in France, so this could be the same road.

However, allowing for the fact that the circuit was just under 3 kilometres long, the circuit map did not seem to match any part of the N.25 as it leaves Amiens. There are only 3 basic corners on the circuit, named Doullens, Rainneville and St. Pierre. Doullens is a town some distance up the N.25, Rainneville is a village on the D.11, the next road to the east of the N.25, running from Amiens, and of St. Pierre there seemed no trace.

Section of map from Michelin Atlas of France 1998

Driving across to Amiens, we noticed that there is, in fact, just one piece of road that runs between the N.25 at Villiers-Bocage and Rainneville to the east, so we begun our quest along that road (coloured orange on the map above). Of course, we could see from the map that there are no roads running south from that road, however, as we drove slowly along it from the north, we saw a very narrow farm track heading south.

We passed that one and continued around the slight left curve, only to find another, similar track. This one we drove down (marked in green on the map). It ran for maybe 50 metres before petering out into a rough area surrounded by crops. Roger turned the T.T. around and drove back to the road. We turned left and drove to the left-hand of the two tracks (marked in pink). This one ran into the fields for a similar distance but ended in the same way that the other had. This time there was no room to turn around so Roger began to reverse towards the road. As we neared the road, a blue Peugeot 206 stopped right across the end of the track, barring our way.

Out from the 206 stepped…. 2 uniforms! The Gendarmerie had arrived. The surlier of the 2 walked to the driver’s side of our car and Roger lowered the window. Fortunately, Roger has an excellent command of French and very quickly assured the gentleman that we were, in fact, not up to mischief, but were indeed, barking mad! He got the message about what we were doing and with a very typical Gallic shrug he turned away.

So, we had an idea that these 2 tracks may have been the circuit, but had long since been partially dug up and cultivated.

Then, I noticed that in the village of Coisy, south of where we were, there is a church. I opined that if that church was called St. Pierre, we may well have stumbled on the answer, because it was obvious that our 2 tracks, with a couple of gentle kinks could have met somewhere down near that church.

Arriving in Coisy, we found a locked church with no name plate anywhere to be seen. Then an elderly gentleman pitched up in an old Renault, and Roger questioned him as to the name of the church. Just our luck to find the one Frenchman who couldn’t understand French! He seemed to think that we had mistaken this little village church for Amiens Cathedral and tried to direct us back the 8 kilometres to Amiens. Eventually, sanity returned and we did learn that the church is called…. St. Pierre! Q.E.D ? Well, no, not really, but the evidence grows.

Certainly, if this was the location of the circuit, life in the area could have happily continued with almost no interruption caused by the racing.

None of the 3 corners named earlier are actually at those locations but they are in the correct direction. A trait used on countless circuits; (as evidence, I refer to Thillois and Arnage to name but 2). So, we believe we may well have located the Amiens circuit, but really we need someone either with a 1950s French road Atlas or someone with access to local maps of the area.

But if I were you, I'd contact the defence people in GB and ask what they might have in wartime maps of the area. Then ask them if they have any aerial photography of the area from that period.

Someone in France would readily find out which department is in charge of mapping and work from there. And there's more than an outside chance that Michelin might be able to help locate where to start.

Try to contact l'IGN, Institut Geographique National:http://www.ign.fr/It's a government agency for everything related to topography.They sell aerial photographies, maps, etc.(I remember about buying some special maps from them when I was a kid... I don't remember what kind of maps but I remember being really excited)

Other than that, I know a historian at la Commission des Sites et Monuments Historiques in Paris.He's specialised on the 20th century and his last book is about old forgotten french airfields.Last time I've heard about him, he was thinking about doing a book on old french race tracks.If you need his details, I could find them out for you.

EDIT Add a better look at the IGN website and, indeed, it's in french only : There is an input field on the bottom right corner ont the homepage where you can enter postal codes, village names and all.I've tried Coisy since it's in the center of your map and I've found this:http://www.ign.fr/af...CommuneId=74356

Apparently they have an 1947, 1961, 1965 aerial pictures of la commune de Coisyhttp://www.ign.fr/af...eId=74356#photoThey don't show a preview but you can order prints and the picture on CD as well.

Very good, Pils. That should be a great start. If there's a prospect of e.mailing them, provided you can get past the language barrier, try to convey the thought that you want the area involved. Often, of course, you will find that the photographs will have a village, for instance, located to one side. This can be a pain, as you might get the village all right, but not the area you actually want.

The photographs do overlap, of course, both north to south and east to west, so there should be something that covers the whole of the area.

If they have them on CD I'd imagine it wouldn't be very expensive to get all you want in the area. 1947 and 1961 is, of course, a difficult spread of years. Were the roads there in 1947? Maybe... were they still there in 1961? Maybe...

1961 photos would certainly still show the outline of the roads even if they didn't exist any longer. But in all probability the roads were actually there in 1947.

Way back in the 1970s I went to look for the Amiens circuit. The huge N25/N1 junction was not there but a short dual carriageaway N25 heading south into the north of the city was and this road had already replaced what was once, I think, the N16.

I thought the circuit, much of which has disappeared, followed this route on your modern map.

The pits/start was on the link road from Poulainville to the D 11 turning left onto the Amiens-Rainneville road. The circuit headed south towards the city and at some point (now buried by the modern road complex) at the St Pierre hairpin headed north up the main road (then the N16 to Doullens) back into the village of Poulainville and turn left into the short finishing straight.

This may be totally wrong but that's the circuit I drove with a less-than-impressed wife and bemused kids.

I suspect that the dotted line on the Autosport map is the projected route for the first northern ring road around Amiens. It may well have been under construction at the time this Amiens circuit was used.

Getting lefts and rights mixed up!! Rights in place of lefts!! I'm assumimg they raced clockwise.

The names of the corners are simply references to the nearest or major town on that route. Locally the N16 was probably known as the Doullens road and the D11 the Rainneville road. In Amiens there is quite likely a church called St.Pierre, there are thousands of "St Peters" churches in Europe.

The newish N25 ring road and the earlier ones cut across the southern end of the circuit.

I googled: The district in the North-East of Amiens appears to be called St Pierre - there is a map a little way down this page

I get the impression that the N25 north of Amiens has been straightened since the Autosport map appeared. There is a link road joining the N25 (N16 as was) to the D11 running NW-SE which I think is the same road running from St Pierre corner up to the kink where the race circuit joins the old N16 - it's just beneath the 4 kilometre distance mark just S of the big N25 junction on the Michelin map in Barry's first post.

The only thing I'm not certain about is the circuit distance - It seems from Michelin that it's 3 km from the big N25 junction to the far side of Poulainville and I would estimate that the circuit was longer than this - but it may just be me.

Well that is the St.Pierre reference dealt with but I think you are right when you suggest that the circuit I described is too long; far too long for a 2.963 km lap. If the St Pierre hairpin was actually in St. Pierre then the route of the old road linking the N16 (25) and the D11 must be somewhere under the N25 junction. If the St Pierre hairpin was slightly further to the north and now buried under the same N25 junction then the Poulainville to D11 could have been the link road. I must try and acquire an old 1950s or earlier road atlas. Does anybody know when Michelin began producing the detailed road atlases?

Does that imply that the circuit ran through Poulainville? If so, wouldn't there be some indication on the contemporary circuit maps as in the Autosport directory? It also seems to me unlikely that even in the 1950s, the N16 (25), which is the main road from Amiens to Dunkirk, would be closed for a race meeting as small as those at Cadours. We are not talking about the Grand Prix de l'ACF here.

I'm not sure why Charles suggested that the N25 has been straightened since the Autosport map appeared. It is, of course, not unusual for French road to run straight for many kilometres and this has been the case for far more than 50 years. I can't recall any signs of the road having been straightened when we drove along it early this week. You would usually expect to see lay-byes where there were once bends.

I have another circuit map from the mid-50s, in the Motor Racing Directory. It shows little more detail than the one in the Autosport directory but two things are clear.

(1) the road across the circuit, which is shown as dotted in the Autosport plan, and which humphries suggested may be the course of of proposed Amiens by-pass is here shown as a solid line. It continues beyond the straight from the St Pierre to the Doullens corner, but stops when it reaches the track between Rainneville and St Pierre.

(2) Both the Rainneville and St Pierre corners are at cross roads.

These things may help to locate the track.

The early 50s races were reported in Autosport by Jabby Crombac. He gives no detail of the course, but he may be able to help us if anybody has contact details.

As Roger says the N16 was very unlikely to have been closed but it states with the Autosport map that a part of the N16 was used. Therefore it is likely that the circuit was more or less in the St Pierre district and there would have been a diversion using other roads so as not to distrupt normal traffic. The advantage of acquiring photocopies from a local newspaper is that the diversion arrangements were published as well as the circuit layout. Unfortunately I have no such photocopies.

I'm sorry, Roger. I shouldn't have suggested with no evidence that the N25 has been straightened since the Autosport map appeared. Trying to make the facts fit my hypothesis.

Googling a bit more using "Coisy and Eglise" I found the following on Coisy: Eglise de la Nativité de la Sainte Vierge, style néo-gothique (19ème siècle). La cloche date de 1492which translates as 'Church of the Nativity of the Blessed Virgin, neo-gothic style (nineteenth century). The bell dates from 1492'

I think your local may have misunderstood the question - but Poulainville's church has a dedication to Saint Pierre.

I've done some very simple scaling from the map in the 1955 Autosport directory. The start-finish straight is about 3/4 Km, Raineville corner to St. Pierre corner 0.89 Km, the next short straight 150 metres, then 2/3 km up the road to the North (I hope that's not an assumption too far) before the kink and then 1/2 Km to the Doullens corner.

Although we don't see photos on the IGN site mentioned by Pils1989, there is quite an interesting map of the area around Coisy, Poulainville and Amiens with a few extra roads not all of which run Roman or ruler straight. Michelin maps are sometimes a bit stylised.

I don't think there is anything which would have stopped the French from closing a main road for a race meeting in the 1950s with far less traffic than nowadays. In the 1970s I used to visit a certain cathedral city in the Sarthe valley where they closed the main road for their 24 hour race in June. I'm still not any nearer finding where the 1950s circuit was situated but I would so like to be one of Les Amis des Circuits d'Antan

Thanks very much, Barry I wondered whether there are any clues in the literature which TonyKaye and Marc Ceulemans discussed here ? Does anyone know what other classes were racing in 1952 at Amiens apart from the 500s? It might be more difficult to persuade the local French authorities to close a main road for a 500cc race.

Originally posted by Charles Helps Thanks very much, Barry I wondered whether there are any clues in the literature which TonyKaye and Marc Ceulemans discussed here ? Does anyone know what other classes were racing in 1952 at Amiens apart from the 500s? It might be more difficult to persuade the local French authorities to close a main road for a 500cc race.

I can't draw on the map as things stand at the moment, but I'll suggest that Barrry's initial guess was correct... that the lines he's drawn can be extended down to that church...

This would mean that the N16 went through Poulainville and Coisy and up the missing road that should be in purple to turn left at the road across from Rainneville to Doullens. When the new road went in it acted as a bypass and other roads were closed.

Allesandro, thanks very much for posting the page of "Racers 500" circuit maps. I can make out some of the lettering with a magnifying glass, but can you see in the original what the words are below the A in the top left corner of the Circuit d'Amiens?

On the right hand side I think I can see Ravitaillement and possibly Chronometrage (Pits and Timekeepers). Can you read the words on the road heading northeast away from the circuit at the Virage de Rainneville?

The long straight with the kink has the name Route de Doullens.

Ray, your compatriots were over here during the First World War and their map (the third one down the page) shows the road from Poulainville followed pretty much its (N16/N25) current course south towards Amiens apart from a little detour much closer to the city where it dives off to the south east to join the modern D329 (coming in from Querrieu and Pont-Noyelles (and Albert off the map)). The combined roads then entered the city via Les Hortillages (commercial allotments watered by the Somme). You could try asking the Royal Australian Air Force if they still have the photos.

Cassini's map of the seventeenth century shows the same road layout (and St. Pierre).

The results of the (Grand?) Prix de Picardie on 20 June 1954 have Jacques Pollet's Gordini beating Hans Davids' Jaguar C type in a race which lasted over an hour and a half. Although the circuit length is not given it does come out to 2.963 Km, the same as the 500 cc circuit and a race average of over 70 mph (113,4 Km/h) suggests quite a quick circuit.

My French road atlas has a scale of 1 cm = 2 kilometres. I think we are agreed that the circuit in question was just a tad under 3 kilometres in length. So, on the map 1.5 cms.

Here is a wire representation of the circuit, to scale, placed on the area we have been discussing; as it is so small, the slight bends in the road were not possible to reproduce, but the general shape is about right.

Trust me, that really is 1.5 cms long.

So..... I'm not sure that it helps too much but I think it does give an idea of the distances involved and to me, it makes it even less likely that it actually used the main road, despite the evidence to the contrary.

Barry, I did notice that the Quelques circuits francais de "Racers 500" page shows the Circuit de Montauban using the RN 20 from Montauban to Paris...Others enjoy tracing old tracks - bottom right hand corner of map.

Good idea the bit of wire! At this point in time I think that St Pierre corner was where the yellow D11 using your first post of the modern map meets the red (Boulevard de Roubaix).As a marker there is a blue rectangle a little below the place I'm talking about. There is a roundabout there now instead of the crossroads but an inverted Y shaped road is opposite the D11 as shown on the circuit map provided by Alex. If the wire would slot into the V there I think it would show that the rest of the circuit is now dead and buried under the big Ring Road junction and the greatly altered B. de Roubaix. As the circuit was only 1.8 miles long there simply isn't anywhere else where the Doullens road and the Rainneville roads could be included.

Originally posted by Barry Boor May I respectfully make another observation on this matter?

Well, okay, it is your dumb thread after all!

What I really want to know now is this:

Is that really wire, or is it a piece of solder?

And seeing as the scale is that small, anything goes. I'll stay out of it until the aerial survey photos turn up, and I'm sorry, Charles, that map's too obscure for me to make out enough to be of any help.

Originally posted by Charles Helps Allesandro, thanks very much for posting the page of "Racers 500" circuit maps. I can make out some of the lettering with a magnifying glass, but can you see in the original what the words are below the A in the top left corner of the Circuit d'Amiens?

On the right hand side I think I can see Ravitaillement and possibly Chronometrage (Pits and Timekeepers). Can you read the words on the road heading northeast away from the circuit at the Virage de Rainneville?

The words under the A are: "Reserve aux militaires et scolaires". The words on the road at V de Rainneville are very difficult to read but something like "Banc et Atalier". The first letter of the first word could easily be different.

The Racers 500 book the it was "un nouveau circuit trace aux portes d'Amiens" which might support Humphries' suggestion that it was nearer to Amiens than Barry and I were looking.

This is from an old Michelin I obtained today at Beaulieu. I'm not sure of the date, but the price printed on the cover is 70 fr, which means (I hope) old francs, and (I think) the 1950s.

As the N16 approaches Amiens from the North it runs dead straight for several kilometres and then bears left. It seems to me possible that the N16 originally continued straight on what is a yellow road on my map. If that is so, the Virage St Pierre could be at the junction of the "old" N16 and the D11, and the start/finish straight could be covered by the "new" N16. All the other roads, and the length of the circuit seem to fit.

Note I've just re-read Rogers post and think we're talking about the same part of the map - sorry if that is the case I got my lefts and rights mixed up when I first read Rogers post

I'm probably missing something but is the part of the map circled in black a possible contender? I say this having looked at Roger's new/old map, the original description, allesandros map (in particular looking at the roads just off from the circuit) and Barry's wire (which tells us that the length of the main straight is basically the distance as the crow flies between the bottom of Coisy and the top of Poulainville).I'm also wondering where the "Parc St-Pierre" is relative to this and whether that was the origin for the name of the bottom corner?

Note I've just re-read Rogers post and think we're talking about the same part of the map - sorry if that is the case I got my lefts and rights mixed up when I first read Rogers post

I'm probably missing something but is the part of the map circled in black a possible contender? I say this having looked at Roger's new/old map, the original description, allesandros map (in particular looking at the roads just off from the circuit) and Barry's wire (which tells us that the length of the main straight is basically the distance as the crow flies between the bottom of Coisy and the top of Poulainville).I'm also wondering where the "Parc St-Pierre" is relative to this and whether that was the origin for the name of the bottom corner?

I have found "1950" printed on my map, which suggests that the roads are as they were when racing took place and the red road running from north west to south east is actually the start/finish straight.