Fireplug wrote:When there are no more state-sponsored religions, when there are no more tax exemptions or special rules for religious organisations, when there is no more evangelism, when there is no more religious representation in political assemblies, when there is no more political lobbying from religious groups, when there is no more religion-derived persecution of minorities, when there are no more religion-inspired wars, when global religions finally become what some of the theists on here seem to want them to be -- purely personal matters perhaps shared with others in self-financed churches -- when all that happens, the atheists should shut up.

Until then, faith is -- and should remain -- a matter of public debate.

Very well put.Can anyone disagree with this?

I've been talking about writing a book - 25 years of TEFL - for a few years now. I've got it in me.

Fireplug wrote:When there are no more state-sponsored religions, when there are no more tax exemptions or special rules for religious organisations, when there is no more evangelism, when there is no more religious representation in political assemblies, when there is no more political lobbying from religious groups, when there is no more religion-derived persecution of minorities, when there are no more religion-inspired wars, when global religions finally become what some of the theists on here seem to want them to be -- purely personal matters perhaps shared with others in self-financed churches -- when all that happens, the atheists should shut up.

Until then, faith is -- and should remain -- a matter of public debate.

Very well put.Can anyone disagree with this?

I'm on the edge of my seat waiting to despair when someone does. And hoping they will at least disagree with what Fireplug is actually saying (ie that paragraph has fuck all to do with what people do in their own heads in private)

That paragraph is vague about what it means to have faith be a matter of public debate. Is it arguing that each individual's faith should be up for debate? The concept of faith? The place of faith in national affairs?

What exactly is being advocated here? Answer that and I'll tell you if I disagree with it.

“Remember I have said good things about benevolent despots before.” - Jimbo

I think Steve is saying that until people of faith stop intervening in the life of the state (in the form of tax breaks, subsidies etc), then the concept of religion is fair game for everyone talk about.

brotherlouie wrote:I think Steve is saying that until people of faith stop intervening in the life of the state (in the form of tax breaks, subsidies etc), then the concept of religion is fair game for everyone talk about.

(Steve, do feel free to correct me)

But again, "fair game for everyone talk about" is vague as hell. We are all talking about faith right now, so surely everybody here already agrees that it is fair game to be discussed.

He is clearly saying something more than that.

“Remember I have said good things about benevolent despots before.” - Jimbo

This illustrates my point though. Songs Of Praise is on Sunday evening on BBC1, right? Along with Antiques Roadshow? Last Of The Summer Wine? This stuff doesn't even register with me. I don't watch much telly, and when I do it will almost always be comedy or documentaries, maybe a bit of drama (what the fuck was that Monty Python thing on last night? I watched the last half hour. No idea what was going on.) I don't watch X-Factor, Dancing On Ice, Masterchef, Big Brother. I have no idea what's going on in any of the soaps. None of that stuff means anything at all to me.

I listen to Radio 4, 5Live, 6Music, watch comedy on TV, follow scientific and creative people on social networks and read forums like BCB. In those media, I can assure you, religious evangelism is almost non-existant. I just don't encounter it. If I see a passing comment like, "Our thoughts and prayers are with his family at this time", it washes over me like an advert on a web page. I don't notice it (usually). I certainly do not feel that anyone is trying to force religious belief onto me. The village I live in is too remote for JWs, the CofE church is closed and is being converted into a house by its new owner, and the Methodist chapel is smaller than my garage and has about three cars parked outside it on a Sunday morning.

On the other hand, I've had to stop following Penn Jillette, the very entertaining and funny magician who I enjoy watching on TV, on Google Plus because about one in five of his posts is about atheism. I don't fucking care about atheism, any more than I care about religion. I don't need to be lectured about what not to believe any more than I need to be lectured about what to believe. My problem is that in "the circles in which I move" atheism is part of the culture. Not just an accepted part of the culture - an unspoken assumption that you're into Science, Rock and Roll and British comedy so we'll take it as read that you're not a god botherer - but instead a forced part of the culture. If you want to hear British comedy, or follow Science blogs, or read Music forums then you obviously need to have atheism shoved vigorously up your arsehole ten times a day as well.

If you are really that passionate about unconverting people from God then go and communicate with people who believe in God, not with me. I wouldn't read BCB if every other thread was someone trying to tell me I should try listening to Led Zeppelin. I already do listen to Led Zeppelin. A very occasional thread asking me to list my favourite 5 Led Zeppelin songs is just about acceptable. A debate about whether Led Zeppelin were better than Black Sabbath or Deep Purple might be entertaining, once a year maybe. But when I'm just trying to keep up with new stuff, have a laugh, find out about interesting things... I don't need that polluted with dull opinions about something I really don't give a toss about either way.

I don't read the Prog threads on here because I'm not that much into Prog except for a few classic records. That's not difficult to avoid, and good luck to the many people who enjoy those threads and that music. If almost every comedy routine involved a rant against Prog, and everyone interesting I followed on social networks kept posting complaints about Prog, and Prog kept being blamed for every bad record ever made... I'd start getting really sick of anti-Prog merchants.

I doubt my point is being made clearly here. If you're that into atheism then it will become an obsession and you won't stop droning on and on about it. It's just unfortunate that evangelistic atheism crosses paths so much with stuff I'm interested in.

Fireplug wrote:When there are no more state-sponsored religions, when there are no more tax exemptions or special rules for religious organisations, when there is no more evangelism, when there is no more religious representation in political assemblies, when there is no more political lobbying from religious groups, when there is no more religion-derived persecution of minorities, when there are no more religion-inspired wars, when global religions finally become what some of the theists on here seem to want them to be -- purely personal matters perhaps shared with others in self-financed churches -- when all that happens, the atheists should shut up.

Until then, faith is -- and should remain -- a matter of public debate.

Very well put.Can anyone disagree with this?

I don't see why religious groups shouldn't be able to lobby governments to protect what they see as their interests. That is a free speech issue, and an issue of representative democracy.

Fireplug wrote:When there are no more state-sponsored religions, when there are no more tax exemptions or special rules for religious organisations, when there is no more evangelism, when there is no more religious representation in political assemblies, when there is no more political lobbying from religious groups, when there is no more religion-derived persecution of minorities, when there are no more religion-inspired wars, when global religions finally become what some of the theists on here seem to want them to be -- purely personal matters perhaps shared with others in self-financed churches -- when all that happens, the atheists should shut up.

Until then, faith is -- and should remain -- a matter of public debate.

Unless of course you can tell us how come us lunatic atheists must define further, what appears to me to be an utterly crystal clear paragraph from Fireplug, whereas you seem to be continuosly shifting the goalposts of premiership level vaguery by declaring elsewhere that the religious don't have to define what the concept of God means to them before we're aloud to debate it.

Using this tactic you can change definitons at will to show we just "don't get it" anytime someone anhialates one of your points with logic. Without requiring evidence you are free to make it up as you go along.

And of course you are free to even declare it is alright to use special pleading when it comes to religion but if that is your view I find it hard to see what the point of debating the topic at all is.

the hanging monkey wrote:The Catholic Church, for example, deserving of respect? They are a blight on humanity.

You mean the world's largest non-governmental charitable institution blight on humanity? That one?

An unfortunate thing about organised religions is that they are filled to the brim with sinners.

The coach of the Green Bay Packers, Vince Lombardi, was a complete c-word of a man who was also a daily communicant of the Catholic Church. When one of the players who suffered at Lombardi's hands discovered this, he said "He fucking needs to be."

Arguments about the institutionalised nature of the Catholic Church's sins and crimes aside, that they are systemic, it seems like this is the polar opposite of your perception.

You would be thinking Lombardi was even more of a cunt because he behaved atrociously while purporting to be a Christian. Evelyn Waugh asked someone who was shocked at his behaviour while professing to be a Catholic to imagine what he would have been like had he not been a Catholic.

You look and you see shit and misery, and there's plenty to see, but your blindness to any possible virtue and your shrillness in decrying the shit and misery kind of works against your arguments. With only the one eye functioning, folks fond of balance might tire of your antics.

Fireplug wrote:When there are no more state-sponsored religions, when there are no more tax exemptions or special rules for religious organisations, when there is no more evangelism, when there is no more religious representation in political assemblies, when there is no more political lobbying from religious groups, when there is no more religion-derived persecution of minorities, when there are no more religion-inspired wars, when global religions finally become what some of the theists on here seem to want them to be -- purely personal matters perhaps shared with others in self-financed churches -- when all that happens, the atheists should shut up.

Great.

It used to be possible to avoid religion by simply not going to church or turning on the telly on a Sunday evening. Now you cunts have decided to force it into every other area of life, and have apparently sworn never to stop. It's like having a nutcase conspiracy theorist following you round everywhere you go.

Can't we just get the fuck on with the Future without this obsessive fear of a non-existant God?

The cunts, presumably being me and some other athists and non-evangelical theists, are the ones who drag religion into other areas of life are we? We got bishops into the house of lords, for example, and allowed the pernicious influence of organised religion to affect global politics and claim the lives of millions just to wind you up?

First rate stuff Tinfoil hats on, everyone. The nurse will be here soon.

OK, what do you actually want from us, the large majority of people in this country who don't go to church, don't watch Songs Of Praise, don't open the door to JWs, don't care either way about your obsession with religion or your Da Vinci Code-style paranoia about its supposed power of evil?

To make the religious people leave us alone, all we have to do is not go to church and not watch Songs Of Praise. What can we do to make you ranting atheists leave us alone?