So the real question is ...."is there any hope of you getting them there"?

This is profound on the level of Oscar Wilde, Al (e.g., 'Some people bring joy where ever they go. Some others bring joy whenever they go.'). This is a statement that should be the first words of every bonsai demo/tutorial.

Those are wise words. But I, am a Bonsai moron so I rEally think that these trees have much hope.

Hunter,

Remember that in bonsai it's a lot about the journey of yourself and the tree. Enjoy it, enjoy learning the techniques, the how to's and the not to's. enjoy working on your trees. This is why I keep and train and develope my own. Nothing beats coming home from a hard day at the office and working on my trees with my better half sitting next to me carving or wiring a tree while our daughter plays on the jungle gym. Your focus is on the end product, and all you do is demotivate yourself because you only see your own shortcomings because of a lack of knowledge and ability AT THE MOMENT to get the trees to where you want them to be. Go get some wire thick enough to bend those trunks and go have some fun putting bends aka movement into those trunks...most important factor FUN!

As Al said if you understood him was that those trees are blank canvasses and can be trained or developed into any style atm.

Learn the techniques, get your horticulture up to scratch abd have fun. Everybody has to start somewhere

Hey that is very nice. Thank you. I have the unfortunate luck of becoming disabled at 35 now im 37, I have noticed I become more agitated and want to be the best at everything. Perhaps I will use the tree as a way to get my patience back. Thanks.

We have an old timer that's been blind his whole life in one of our regional clubs, you must see his trees! you won't believe a blind man created those trees if you saw the trees before meeting him. he specialises in indigenous wild figs. keep at it hunter