Originally posted by Recouper
Xcathdra and seeashrink, it's been really weird seeing such candid opinions and views from the two of you, knowing that you're both police officers...
indeed weird, I'm not entirely sure why....

I guess I have preconceptions...

Perhaps that in itself is revealing in regards to the thread topic...

Its understandable, and I do think its part preconcpetion / misconception about LEO's based on contact either personaly, or from a friend / family
member that had adverse results. I think its also comes down to what makes the news.

To put it in terms people will understand on this site it boils down to the function of the CIA or even the FBI. The sucess stories are not news
worthy, and neither agency will take a bow on their success. When we screw it up pretty bad, it makes the news, and peope rightfully ask questions.

The last part of the equation is the shift from community orientated policing to a different standard that actually places somewhat of a barrier
between Law Enforcement and the people they serve. With the change in times, crime etc, its no longer a possibility in many communities to have
officers on foot patrol either downtown, or in neighborhoods. Many agencies have shifted resources from their COP / DARE other outreach programs to
fill staffing needs for basic calls for service.

and lastly, targeting this site in particular, we have a lot of people who just flat out do not trust the Government for whatever reason, and the
Police are an extension of that issue. We are perceived, and rightfully so albeit viewed differently, as the enforcement arm of the Government. We
arent perceived as the powers that be, but the goon squads who silence the critics of the powers that be.

To tie it all back together it comes down to mutual understanding and respecting opinions and positions, trying to find common ground where possible,
and not cedeing any ground when required. I think people have the conception that if things go massively wrong, Law Enforcement will turn on them and
lock the people up, which I think is the farthest from the truth.

The majority of people who go into Law Enforcement dont do it for the money. We do it because we still beleive good can come from people, even those
who made wrong decisions. We do it to protect those who cant protect themselves, and in our own way make an attempt to make a difference in the lives
of those we come into contact with, with the top priority to make sure the encounter is a positive one (we all know this does not happen 100 % of the
time).

There is no reason to fear the Police, and I have no problems with citizens asking questions, even during arrests if appropriate (another side note,
Law does prevent Officers from giving legal advice, so even some questions which seem simple to the person asking is something we cannot answer, so
again we come across as an ass for not asnwering the question).

When I get a complaint about a law I am enforcing, I take the time, again when practical, to explain to the person being arrested that we have nothing
to do with the laws being passed, only enforcement. I encourage citizens to question their elected officals and to hold them accountible when
needed.

The sum it up I think the weird reaction to our comments and positions is because it falls in line with people's views on this site, who want the
corruption gone. Its always weird to find an ally in the entity people want changed.
Then again im not a mind reader, so I may be way off base with your comment

To be honest.......there isnt an answer I "want" . Just an honest reply........and you gave me one, thank you.

Your welcome I think lol.. not sure if you are serious or being sarcastic. If its the latter rephrase your question and I will try to answer it
again.

edit on 30-12-2010 by Xcathdra because: (no reason given)

edit on 30-12-2010 by Xcathdra because: (no reason
given)

II was serious.....lol

I will admit I was surprised to get anything other than the official line, usually a cop will refuse to even admit any cop is bad much less admit
there is a problem and you have IMO been pretty straight up with us.

A little background............very little because I admit the experience has left me extremely paranoid

II left a town where the police chief had turned it into his personal fiefdom, the local ptb were all related and if you spoke out about their abuses
you would get drugs planted on you, beat for resisting arrest, etc........i know personally of innocent people who had their businesses and personal
property taken because of planted evidence.......even some that have had their children taken. Their lawyers told them the PA job was TO GENNERATE
INCCOME for the city and he has often been heard saying that innocence or guilt didn't matter just if he had the evidence to confiscate their
property and money.......leaving them too broke to hirer a decent lawyer and the fact they were family insured a conviction.....I had officers i went
to school with admit they knew what was going on but they had families to feed

I left them to there police state and moved off to more reasonable areas, but I will never forget it.

Was everyone innocent...........of course not, but a huge amount were and it reminded me of the Salem witch trials

Admittedly I had never experienced anything like it before or after but it has left me distrustful of anyone in power and it shattered many lives

Most of the citizens cheered him on, when the people would protest they were told .........if you were innocent you wouldn't have been arrested...so
much for a fair trial.

No I wont revel where it happened, provide links, etc......even though I have left I have seen what can happen to people that threaten him and he is
still in power

Fair enough.. It irritates cops to no end when a small select few screw it up for the rest of us for whatever dumb ass reason they think. There is not
getting around this as it permeates all parts of the job sector.

Interesting events.. I have seen this before, but only as a spectator, watching the AG for the state remove the sherrif of one county, and actually
arresting the sherrif and all deputies except for one jailer in another county.

Part of your comment concerns me.. Everyone is innocent until proven guilty in a court of law that has competant jurisdiction. I would think anyone
that was convicted for a crime in that city find a lawyer and have their case reviewed.

BTW this is how the bad apple issue starts. 1 bad apple can spoil the bunch. All it takes is one officer with one department to be untruthful, lie,
mit info, etc, at which point all officers will come under scrutiny by defense attorneys, prosecuting attornys which affect he cases we make and
submit, to the judge and hi/her ability to run their court.

Its hard to think of LEO as individuals because we all are in unfoirm doing the same job, and working for the same people. Since we are all trained in
the same manner, its easy to paint the broad picture that all cops are bad, and there are no such thing as a bad apple.

Law Enforcement comes down to the ability to understand our place in society, understand what our actions will do as well as those of the people we
are dealing with, and in the end what is the best course of action for all involved, and not what action generates the least amount of paperwork for
us.

The concept of law enforcement is to be visible but unseen. The mere presence should be enough to deter most crime, which in an ideal world would make
us nothing more than crossing gurads. To me, that is a worthy goal we should not give up on.

The same thing happened in the county next to ours, the AG took out the Sherriffs dept, and the police dept, etc all were just fired none were
arrested.

What troubled me more than the "innocent before being proved guilty" part was the part about the PA job being to gennerate income for the
county.........not to convict criminals, etc......but to fill the county coffers with confiscated $$$$$$..........this makes it a vested interest in
obtaining a conviction no matter the evidence.

The way they get around it is by offering a 5-10 sentence if you plead which means you cant have the case reviewed........or a manditory 25
years....20 before you even come up for parole....if you take it to trial.......not many will risk it with a Public Deffender.....which is all you can
afford after they take everything you own

You can't exactly run code (lights & sirens) to robberies when you're two blocks away...that only gives the perp a chance to take hostages.
And, um, yeah, a police officer is taking cover BECAUSE the perp is running and possibly has a weapon. If he throws up his hands in the first place
the officer would not have to be CHASING him...

Well yeah. I ran itnto one recently at work. He accused me of hitting on his woman who happens to live at one of the apartments I pull security for.
Small world. Can you believe that? My boss doesn't like this one cop either and said that if he were me he would try to avoid talking to him.

Also this something most cop-haters don't realize; 'not all cops get along with each other'. So it's kind of an overstatement to say that they're
all going to cover for each other when one of them acts up.

The Feds have wrecked every State and community police force with terrorism training and then named the terrorist threat "domestic" inclusive of any
American who does not obey or agree with them.

Policing in a our free society, is based on a social contract with the people and this contract is rooted in the oath officers take to the
constitution. In other words, they swear to uphold the constitutional rights of the American people and in return, the American people give them the
trust and authority to enforce the law within constitutional limits. That all changed when the Federal government began training and equipping them
to act as an occupying military force in an enemy nation. Americans are all named potential "domestic terrorists" now. Military forces have no
qualms of killing enemy combatants. They are the law, judge and the jury over the people they are occupying.

Local and State police officers have broken the social contract they had with the American public. They should have been loyal to the American public
and stood up to the Federal government's Homeland Security excess. This is very serious.

Visible but unseen. The terminology for that would be "command-presence". Is that right?

People will have their own interpretations. My point is visible but unseen is the ability for crime to be detered just by the thought that we are
around somewhere, and only become visible when its needed.

Command Presence to me is when we are dealing with a call, and there is no question as to who is in charge and running the show. Command presence is
generally something that cannot be taught, and as a cop either you have it or you dont. An officer with command presence can tell a person to sit down
in such a manner that the person complies and there is no confusion as to what will happen if the person refuses to comply.

An Officer who lacks command presence can tell a person to sit down, and the person will refuse knowing the presence of the officer is an empty shell
so to speak.

Criminals do their thing on a daily basis, and generally know how to read an officer, their actions, demeanor, etc, translating that into knowing if
the officer will stand their ground or if they can be pushed around.

If it wasn't for cops....you would most likely be six feet under. There are corrupt leos, soldiers, doctors, politicians. You can't possibly say all
are. I am fortunate we have amazing leos like these guys on here who will sacrifice their own lives to keep us safe, even when we do not deserve it.
And with that mouth be glad you didn't run into me in the middle east, I would have put you in the desert myself. Cath, shrink, you guys ARE
heros

I cannot speak for the country I can speak for my area though. In the city I work in we are supposed to have a minimum of 120 officers(uniformed), we
have dropped down to 65 since 2005, due mainly to injuries. Since 2005 we have had 23 officers put on permanent disability. My cities unemployment
rate has dropped in the past year due to the fact that 1000-3000 had there benefits run out. In the year of 2010 Armed robberies have increased 450%,
Grand Larceny, 570%, Petty Larceny 990%, and 90% of apartments in the area are now section 8 or 236 tax credit. In the last year the officers in our
department took a 5% pay cut to get a few more officers in the next academy, we lost both of our armored vehicles(MS-13), we have 12 patrol vehicles
destroyed by gunfire. At this point on a typical day the follow call is frequent on the radio, "EOC to any unit that can clear, we have 18 calls
holding, 3 are immediate."

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