Raid Utility through Poisons?

So many of our utility poisons have no benefit in a raid. I think this is would be a huge QoL and utility area where they could improve rogues.

What do you guys think about adding raid utility to rogue through poisons? Meaning if a buff isn't covered, rogues could use a utility poison that would provide the buff needed. I know some would seem silly, like stamina buff, but it would give some raid utility. It would be kind of similar to Hunter pets being able to be swapped out to provide buffs.

Also, I'd love to see a utility poison that would apply weaken armor instead of having to waste energy to do it...

I think it would make sense for the debuffs. But I don't think it should be a poison. It could be like, a clicky mixture. Like Master Poisoner increases spell damage by 5%, maybe we could instead change it to increase physical taken by 4%. Or decrease damage done (the tank universal debuff), or whatever.

I think likewise it would be nice to be able to switch between 10% attack speed, 10% attack power, and 5% crit.

To be honest, we've had smoke bomb as a raid CD, new glyphs coming like the FOK's glyph which will be the only class that can apply the weakened armor debuff on multiple targets on demand and we have ridiculous survivability which is an extention of the raid.

There is too much for a push in "raid utility" when we already have plenty and traditionally we are a solo class. Enjoy the class as it is, we are top of the melee food chain and I, for one, am loving it.

To be honest, we've had smoke bomb as a raid CD, new glyphs coming like the FOK's glyph which will be the only class that can apply the weakened armor debuff on multiple targets on demand and we have ridiculous survivability which is an extention of the raid.

There is too much for a push in "raid utility" when we already have plenty and traditionally we are a solo class. Enjoy the class as it is, we are top of the melee food chain and I, for one, am loving it.

you consider the fok glyph a boost in raid utility ?

the ultimate answer's to all rogue issues :

-Rogues might still be dealing with the changes to combo points {2014}

You know this is a good point and one I never thought about before. Crippling Poison, Mind Numbing, and Paralytic have virtually no use in a raid what so ever. Leeching is rarely taken due to Feint being so much stronger (although Feint's primary raid purpose is the AOE reduction, so that's debatable).

I for one wouldn't mind having expose armor removed from the game completely, and a poison that reduces raid bosses' armor being implemented. One time we didn't have anyone who could reduce armor, so our raid leader made me use expose armor and it was a horrible experience (lol). I was so unfamiliar with having to press that particular button that my DPS took a notable hit.

Crippling Poison, Mind Numbing, and Paralytic have virtually no use in a raid what so ever.

That's not always true. It depends a lot on your raid comp (particularly for 10 mans), but crippling to slow adds has had occasional important uses: (Tortos turtles, Deathwing HC oozes, Chogall oozes, etc) - so its a not often used utility - but comes in handy if for whatever reason your raid needed another source of snares/slows.

Mind numbing and paralytic...yeah those are even more niche for pve (i think we may have used mind numbing to slow down the cast times on Maloriak when learning him lol) - but those 2 poisons are clearly more for pvp.

That being said, adding some sort of raid utility through a poison wouldn't be a bad idea. Lets see what blizz comes up with.

I think that the only time i used expose armor in my whole rogue life was when fighting Nalice for the legendary daggers quest...

It depends on your raid comp. If you don't have anyone to put expose up, its best that you maintain it. Its a bit of raid utility that is best handled by others, but you should definately use it if noone else can.

I really would like to see more situatuion's where mind numbing could come into play, may be a bit too powerfull of a damage mitigation measure though.

In AoE situations, yes. It's even a single-target DPS increase if you've been having to use glyphed Expose Armor for your raid comp.

Poisons don't need to apply raid utility every encounter. As Dryaan already pointed out, there's plenty of encounters where our poisons come into play. There's also a few encounters where Smoke Bomb is not only usable, but almost required for progression (H Council comes to mind).

Sounds to me like the class you're looking for is hunter, not rogue. Hunters are the only class in the game that can bring any buff or debuff to a raid including the more rare battle res and bloodlust. That is one of their great strengths, and there is no reason to give every buff/debuff to every class or it basically defeats the purpose of having them in the first place.

Rogues already have a powerful niche which is being extremely hard to kill melee. They can mitigate and avoid damage better than anyone and that is profoundly useful and in certain situations (heroic will of the emperors is one example off the top of my head) you can base your entire strategy around having a good rogue player. That combined with all the other things they can already do, they really don't need anything else.

I like ponies and I really don't care what you have to say about that.

I don't believe using the new glyphed FoK over glyphed Expose would be a single target increase. The energy saved from glyphed Expose could go towards more mutilates.

I'm not a theorycrafter but it seems that doing 3 FoKs to start (to get 3 exposes) followed by a FoK every 30 seconds would be better for me than expose armor. I do have to put expose armor up in my raid.

What I don't quite understand is why 3 applications of sunder/expose are considered "necessary" and not just one "it's up".

As for eliminating expose armor, I strongly suspect this glyph is their way of testing FoK as a potential replacement for expose armor. Surely expose armor has to go if they are worried about button bloat. You just bake it into another talent. And why not FoK which does spread it everywhere and would be different?

As a former rogue who now plays windwalker, a dps that has zero utility, I find this thread disturbing. I mean really, people were already stacking rogues where they couldn't fit warlocks. Why do you need this?

I'm not a theorycrafter but it seems that doing 3 FoKs to start (to get 3 exposes) followed by a FoK every 30 seconds would be better for me than expose armor. I do have to put expose armor up in my raid.

Glyphed Expose costs 25 energy for 3 applications of expose (the max). Glyphed FoK, three executions required, would cost 105 energy total. You would save 80 energy (approx 1.45 mutilates). Even after you got it up and rolling, the energy difference between the two would favor Glyphed Expose, not to mention if it dropped during a transition phase, you would have to use another 105 energy to put the buff up again. So not a single target dps increase, but a very nice AOE increase especially if you have others in the raid doing physical AOE damage.

Did some rough and dirty math, using glyphed expose vs. glyphed FoK. Over the course of a 5 minute fight you would save 160 energy (2.9 mutilates so lets just say 3) 3 mutilates using the low end of damage for a Ilvl 372 dagger nets you 47520 damage. In order to apply and redebuff the target you would use 12 FoK's for a total of 11,976 damage. The difference bieng 35,544 damage. I did this without factoring in AP because i'm dumb. Now 35,544 isn't alot of damage in the long run, but you have to also take into considertion that Muty can proc poisons twice, adds another CP, and can proc dispatch.