What would you say is the primary difference between ESFJs and ESTJs? I've noticed that they can vibe similarly to each other, especially when the ESTJ and ESFJ are the same gender. My instinct would be that ESFJs are more focused on consensus, but that seems like a shallow and incomplete answer. So I dunno. Thoughts?

Mostly I'm asking this because I can't tell myself and @Showbread apart anymore.

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Damn son, you have a lot of secret-SJ friends!

I have an ESTJ dad and an xSTJ friend. We get along pretty well. I think the biggest difference between is is the ESFJ being Fe-dom but ESTJ being inferior Fi. The ESTJ is a lot more logical and grounds me when I start to get too emotional. I often go to my STJ's for advice and they tell me exactly what they think, no white lies, no sugar-coating it or telling me what I want to hear like some other SFJ's I know might do. The main problem I come across with ESTJ dad is when he can't understand my motives for wanting to do something, like buy yet another stuffed animal or whatever, because I'll say "I want it cuz I like it" and he'll be like, "But why? You already don't have enough room for them. It's a waste of money. You should be saving it up and buy a car or something." And while he kind of has to accept that I'm gonna do it anyway, he'll always think it's dumb lol. Also, my other STJ friend (though to be honest with you I think he's probably an ISTJ rather than an ESTJ but w/e) is something I always talk to about, like everything. Every 10 minutes I give him some stupid unwanted update about my life like "Driving to work" "I'm at work now" "Now I'm on break at work" and he never replies, and doesn't give me dumb updates (only tells me meaningful stuff), but he doesn't tell me to stop either. One time I got really upset over a misunderstanding because I thought I was annoying him because of talking to him so much and he was basically like "you're an idiot, say whatever you want whenever you want." Basically, I'm more talkative and outwardly expressive than he is but he's not UNthoughtful, he just expresses what he feels in actions rather than words.

I say all these things that make us sound really different but we're seriously very alike in actuality. Same hobbies, interests, etc. And I have to admit, my Fe-ness does kind of make me mirror him at times which doesn't help in differentiating our personalities when we're together, lol. Of course, I don't represent all ESFJs and my dad and friend don't represent all STJs so it could just be us, I dunno. But hopefully this helps answer your question somehow

Edit: tagging @great_bay cuz this probably answers some of their question too.

I think the biggest difference between is is the ESFJ being Fe-dom but ESTJ being inferior Fi.

I agree with this. The impression I get from ESTJs and ESFJs is that ESTJs have "a bluebird in (their) heart that wants to get out", like in the Bukowski poem* -- this small but powerful core that guides them and is very sentimental and emotional. One of the defining struggles of the ESTJ, in my experience, is that they define themselves as logical, but that "core" is as illogical as you can get. ESTJs know that's a paradox but they usually try to ignore it.

*I get emotional every time I read it. Damn you inferior Fi!

Originally Posted by 21lux

The ESTJ is a lot more logical and grounds me when I start to get too emotional. I often go to my STJ's for advice and they tell me exactly what they think, no white lies, no sugar-coating it or telling me what I want to hear like some other SFJ's I know might do.

Oh yeah, that rings true for me too. No Fe means no skill at making the truth more palatable, lol.

I could probably say exactly the same about Fe-users, that they calm me down when I'm upset. Which is part of why I asked that first question in this thread -- seems like both ESTJs and ESFJs have a reputation as being a calm and stable presence in people's lives. But now that I have your and Showbread's input and have thought about it, I presume that this is because the things that upset Fe-users are not the things that upset Te-users. When I calm down my xxFJ friends, it's usually when they have a lot of logistical details to figure out and are overwhelmed. When my xxFJ friends calm me down, it's usually when I have a lot of interpersonal drama to figure out and am overwhelmed. (That drama in a nutshell: "How can I get this person to do what I want them to do without them getting mad at me??")

Originally Posted by 21lux

The main problem I come across with ESTJ dad is when he can't understand my motives for wanting to do something, like buy yet another stuffed animal or whatever, because I'll say "I want it cuz I like it" and he'll be like, "But why? You already don't have enough room for them. It's a waste of money. You should be saving it up and buy a car or something." And while he kind of has to accept that I'm gonna do it anyway, he'll always think it's dumb lol.

I sort of associate this with all SJs. Do you think ESFJs are more accepting of that sort of thing? Impractical/frivolous activities and purchases that serve no purpose except to make you happy?

Originally Posted by 21lux

Also, my other STJ friend (though to be honest with you I think he's probably an ISTJ rather than an ESTJ but w/e) is something I always talk to about, like everything. Every 10 minutes I give him some stupid unwanted update about my life like "Driving to work" "I'm at work now" "Now I'm on break at work" and he never replies, and doesn't give me dumb updates (only tells me meaningful stuff), but he doesn't tell me to stop either. One time I got really upset over a misunderstanding because I thought I was annoying him because of talking to him so much and he was basically like "you're an idiot, say whatever you want whenever you want." Basically, I'm more talkative and outwardly expressive than he is but he's not UNthoughtful, he just expresses what he feels in actions rather than words.

That is adorable. <3

xSTJ affection in a nutshell:

All about service. No words required.

Originally Posted by 21lux

I say all these things that make us sound really different but we're seriously very alike in actuality. Same hobbies, interests, etc. And I have to admit, my Fe-ness does kind of make me mirror him at times which doesn't help in differentiating our personalities when we're together, lol. Of course, I don't represent all ESFJs and my dad and friend don't represent all STJs so it could just be us, I dunno. But hopefully this helps answer your question somehow

Yes it definitely answers my question! Thank you for the thorough reply.

Replying to this here, because it's more on topic than it would be in the "What Are You Like When You're Angry?" thread:

Originally Posted by Showbread

Originally Posted by EJCC

(There's nothing higher than level 5, or at least there hasn't been in about 10 years -- I don't yell or throw things or try to hurt people emotionally)

So, here's a way we're different. Really mad Fe doesn't just aim to resolve anger and express frustration. It gets really really nasty. When I'm really pissed at someone there's like a constant stream of REALLY personal criticisms/ammunition that I have to fight like hell to keep in. It's like this ugly switch goes off and all the possible ways I could tear someone down start popping up. They're usually pretty snide and passive aggressive too, like back handed "compliments". In the moment it will fell perfectly justified, but then in hindsight it makes me feel pretty bad about myself.

This is interesting. Do you think it would be accurate to simplify it to: Anger turns a switch off, for ESTJs, and turns a switch on, for ESFJs? I feel like as I get angrier, the energy I would usually be using to hold in my judgments ends up abandoning its post at the floodgates and powering the anger force instead -- so the floodgates open and all my real opinions come out. "I can usually tolerate your BS, but not today". "I've never understood why you constantly complain about Y and never actually do anything about it". "You need to stop behaving like a child and grow the f*ck up".

(Real life example: a month or so ago, my roommate's fiancee got really angry with her for no reason, reacted super dramatically -- as he was on his way out the door, I asked him where he was going, and he said "spending the night at a friend's house, because clearly I'm not wanted here." I totally lost patience for his drama, so I said "Are you going to run away and stay at a friend's house every time you and (roommate) have a fight?")

I know that enneatypes 3 and 8 are also associated with vengefulness, and are common among ESTJs -- and I wonder how that vengefulness manifests itself with Te. Because I am really not that sort of person. When someone is being horrible, I just want them to stop being horrible, and that's it.

Originally Posted by Showbread

It was a real problem when I was a child with ADHD because my impulse control was virtually nonexistent. I legitimately thought I was just a mean person until I was in high school.

I relate to this -- I thought I was mean for most of my childhood, because I didn't know how to communicate except bluntly, and was CONSTANTLY hurting people's feelings. Not to mention I was very bad at controlling my temper.

I sort of associate this with all SJs. Do you think ESFJs are more accepting of that sort of thing? Impractical/frivolous activities and purchases that serve no purpose except to make you happy?

Yeah it could just be an SJ thing. My xSTJ friend does the same as me sometimes but my ESTJ dad never does. I think other xSFJs (or maybe it's just me?? Who knows) have less self control over buying "super cute thing and its only 5-10 dollars I want it sooo bad I have to have it!!". Or, on the flip side, maybe I see xSTJs as doing this less often because all the xSTJs I know in my life aren't really bad impulse buyers and handle their money well. Though my xSTJ friend will sometimes impulse buy... and the little shxt, whenever I'm trying to control myself and not buy a thing he's like, "Do it, close your eyes and do it get the thing." (I do the same back to him in revenge but he can usually resist the temptation unlike me LOL)

"Only two things are infinite. The universe, and human stupidity, but I'm not sure about the former." -Albert Einstein"You know you're in love when you can't fall asleep because reality is finally better than your dreams." -Dr. Seuss"If you want to know what a man is like, take a good look at how he treats his inferiors, not his equals." -J. K. Rowling

here are 9 forms of intelligence:
1. Logical Intelligence (someone logically smart would be good in math, physics, etc.)
2. Musical Intelligence (being able to hear music and remember it note for note, and being good in instruments)
3. Visual Intelligence (being able to visually imagine things. Also known as Spatial Intelligence)
4. Natural Intelligence (being able to understand nature and living beings well)
5. Lingual Intelligence (being able to understand languages well, their grammar, the phonetics, etc.)
6. Philosophical Intelligence (understanding morals, metaphors, why we exist, etc.)
7. Intrapersonal Intelligence (being able to understand yourself really well)
8. Interpersonal Intelligence (being able to understand other people really well)
9. Physical Intelligence (being strong, being fast, and being good in anything sports-related)

"Only two things are infinite. The universe, and human stupidity, but I'm not sure about the former." -Albert Einstein"You know you're in love when you can't fall asleep because reality is finally better than your dreams." -Dr. Seuss"If you want to know what a man is like, take a good look at how he treats his inferiors, not his equals." -J. K. Rowling

Gerald D. Tharp has found that students with higher grades were usually of the I and J types while student with lower grades were of the E and P types. This relation is not a new finding but additional support for Melear’s earlier finding that, “the EP students not only achieve the lowest, but are twice as likely to be the lowest
achievers. 20”

Tharp also found that the SJ types were the students who had the highest grades followed by the ST types. The last two types in terms of grade average were the IN and IS.

Yet, studies conducted by psychologists, K. T. Schurr and V. Ruble (1988) indicate that students of the IN personality type are usually better prepared for college than the ES types. According to their analysis, the combination of the E-I and S-N indicators were most significantly related to SAT scores and High School Grade Percentiles. By contrast, the combination of the E-I and J-P dimensions produced 19 (Tharp, Gerald D., 1992) 20 (Tharp, Gerald D., 1992)

indicators were more significantly related to achievement by any measure other than the SAT. Moreover, the “J-P scale is indicative of the personality characteristic that is most uniquely associated with college instructor’s evaluation of achievement.

” Based on these three findings, they concluded that college is much better suited for students of the J, N and I preferences while the students with the P, S, and E preferences do significantly worse on the academic side of college life, thought they may excel in non academic pursuits or have unusual success later in life.

Originally Posted by the third(?) link

As the degree to which a test measures what it is supposed to measure, validity is a difficult property to evaluate in a test. Consider tests of intelligence. Many people are skeptical of the results of these tests. Some people are concerned that the tests measure only "book learning" and do not test "common sense." Other people feel that intelligence tests have cultural, racial, and gender biases. Therefore, to conclude that a test is a valid measure of intelligence, it must be shown that the test measures intelligence independent of the testee's education, culture, race, and sex.

Originally Posted by the fourth link

Myers-Briggs was created in World War II and was designed to determine where women, who were just entering the workforce, would be ‘most comfortable and effective’.

While comfort is important, post hire, it is not the most important screening aspect for hiring. Comfort and effectiveness are important when securing the employment duration and happiness of employees. However, when screening applicants, studies have shown that in addition to industriousness, intelligence is the only other predictor of job performance. Without that additional cognitive ability screening measure, employers will place comfortable workers, but not necessarily ones that will be productive. An employer could hire the most outgoing salesman, however, but without the ability to handle complex situations, this salesman’s performance record could show that he is able to talk, but not able to communicate, understand the client, develop a strategy and all of the other steps needed to sell.

Googling "MBTI and intelligence" will provide you with two things:
1) Articles like the above, and
2) Posts by N types on internet forums about how Sensors are stupid.

You are probably trusting the latter more than the former, and I suggest that you do a little extra reading, and re-evaluate your source material.

Last edited by EJCC; 04-01-2015 at 03:28 PM.
Reason: added more articles

"Only two things are infinite. The universe, and human stupidity, but I'm not sure about the former." -Albert Einstein"You know you're in love when you can't fall asleep because reality is finally better than your dreams." -Dr. Seuss"If you want to know what a man is like, take a good look at how he treats his inferiors, not his equals." -J. K. Rowling