Forcing us to LFR to have succes in normal mode.

exactly my point, am sure all these people who are against lfr and normal raids shared lockout and those who dont think they are mandatory wont have a problem with it.after all its a playstyle we chose.

Was the shared lockout between 10 and 25 man even a playerbase request?

Are you even serious? No one wanted 10 and 25 to share a lockout, but blizzard claimed people did. People have been asking for 25 man to be its separate mode since Cataclysm beta. The merge of 10 and 25 killed of 25 man raiding. People have been asking for a return to the WotLK style, but blizzard has refused since "running both felt mandatory"...

So now Korea is getting WotLK style and I want it in Europe as well. If LFR is not mandatory that running 10 will not be mandatory as well, correct? So what is taking them so long?

Was the shared lockout between 10 and 25 man even a playerbase request?

Are you even serious??? People have been asking for 25 man to be its separate mode since Cataclysm beta. The merge of 10 and 25 killed of 25 man raiding. People have been asking for a return to the WotLK style, but blizzard has refused since "running both felt mandatory"...

So now Korea is getting WotLK style and I want it in Europe as well. If LFR is not mandatory that running 10 will not be mandatory as well, correct? So what is taking them so long???

That's what I mean. What initiated the merge in the first place? Don't remember seeing anyone in Wrath complaining that they had the option to run both 10 and 25 man on the same character.

I can. Your kill will be slowed by a fraction of time (seconds). But by no stretch of the imagination your team will be meeting enrage timers unless you're just undergeared. Once you're at the point to which the content is tuned for, the only thing preventing your raid from killing the boss is perfecting the execution. The very tight dps races are on Heroic (Gara'jal Heroic comes to mind as an example) and in that setting unless you're at the very top of progression, LFR gear will do you no good (it's very likely you'll need a fair amount of normal gear to take him down).

Bolded what I (somewhat) disagree with.

I'd argue that for heroic-level players and the upper-hand of players, yes, you are totally right. Normal modes aren't a problem at all anymore. However, for people with less ability to perform DPS/other roles, it makes no doubt to me that they are indeed having trouble on enrage timers and such, or at the very least be close enough that they'll absolutely want any possible upgrade.

When we raided during the first week with raids full of 463~ ilvl geared characters enrage timers felt quite tight, and we're a world-class guild. I can safely assume that a raid of players that perform sub-par, despite their much higher ilvl, will not be dishing out much more DPS/healing than our raids back in 463 gear, and will probably encounter a lot of trouble with enrage timers or other numbers-related issues rather than mechanics issues.

For Heroic raiders, though, LFR will slowly fade away as you replace your gear with Heroic gear. Because come the next tier, you won't have a reason to go there. On this tier you'll experience the same already with Heart of Fear and Terrace of Endless Spring LFRs. For those slots you've got gear from normal Mogu'shan Vaults, there'll be no reason to go and visit HoF and TES LFRs (when those are open), since it'll still be higher item level than that of LFR.

Tier pieces and possible better itemisation make the statement that there is no reason to run later LFRs false. Some stuff from heroic Ragnaros was still BiS in full DS heroic gear due to itemisation, some stuff from Ulduar was still BiS in full ICC heroic gear, so not even changes in tiers (even two tiers in the latter case) necessarily make gear obsolete, let alone the difference between 489 and 483. At least until people have their 4 piece tier, from whatever source, they will be running the LFR segments that drop the tier they need, be they casuals or hardcore raiders.

I find it rather mind-boggling that the idea of competitiveness coming from blue posts can't get beyond getting realm/world firsts. For one thing, there are lots of things people would probably consider as 'realm firsts' that aren't recognised as such. For example, the vast majority of world/realm first kills are going to come from hardcore guilds running 16-20+ hours per week. Guilds running 2 or 3 3-4 hour raids per week may well consider themselves in a separate bracket with others with similar time limits.

By this definition, I should be able to walk up to Lionel Messi, Kobe Bryant, Sebastian Vettel, Roger Federer... (you get the idea, I guess) and tell them I'm being super competitive in their respective sports because I'm competing in a local league putting a fraction of the time they are. The thing is, when looking at the grand scheme, I'm not. Not even close. There's a reason why the world first quality guilds usually get world firsts, and it's not just skill, there's also commitment, coordination and a myriad of factors.

Of course, if we start removing factors that we can't or don't want to meet, even playing rock-paper-scissors with your friend on the middle of Times Square is competitive, but the moment the discussion goes down that path, it's very unlikely we'll reach any kind of agreement on what's being discussed.

However, for people with less ability to perform DPS/other roles, it makes no doubt to me that they are indeed having trouble on enrage timers and such, or at the very least be close enough that they'll absolutely want any possible upgrade.

When we raided during the first week with raids full of 463~ ilvl geared characters enrage timers felt quite tight, and we're a world-class guild. I can safely assume that a raid of players that perform sub-par, despite their much higher ilvl, will not be dishing out much more DPS/healing than our raids back in 463 gear, and will probably encounter a lot of trouble with enrage timers or other numbers-related issues rather than mechanics issues.

Isn't this another reason why it'd do good to those players that feel they need the gear to instead improve their dps rotations, talents, gearing choices, etc, so that they can make the most benefit of their class rather than relying on getting higher gear? (I'm talking about those encounters that aren't dps checks, of course, at some point the developers expect the raid to be at a certain treshold of gear, and if that's not the case it's very likely you just won't be able to move forward until you get more upgrades)

Of course, not everyone can play at the 100% of their spec, but the jump those players may see from wearing all 463 to 476 compared to the jump from perfecting their rotations (working on them, or whichever area they might be failing in) would probably yield a greater result, and one that will outlast gear replacements in the long run; you're not likely to lose skill once you've acquired it after all.

That's what I mean. What initiated the merge in the first place? Don't remember seeing anyone in Wrath complaining that they had the option to run both 10 and 25 man on the same character.

I want you to think about this for a second.

If we unlink 25 and 10, all 25man guilds can (and probably will) run 10s to get extra loot. That gives you the option to do other content.

People who are doing 10man cannot go and run 25 for that same benefit. We wont get any options; instead 25man becomes vastly superior to 10 in terms of how fast you can progress.

I enjoy raiding with 9 of my friends, I don't want to have to go back to a 25man guild and all the drama that comes with it purely because that's the only way to experience the full game.

Same thing happens if you diminish loot or difficulty in 10s, suddenly they become "the easy mode" that anyone can faceroll through, and people who want to raid properly or max their character have to do 25. As it stands some fights are harder on 10, some on 25 and I prefer it that way.

That's what I mean. What initiated the merge in the first place? Don't remember seeing anyone in Wrath complaining that they had the option to run both 10 and 25 man on the same character.

I want you to think about this for a second.

If we unlink 25 and 10, all 25man guilds can (and probably will) run 10s to get extra loot. That gives you the option to do other content.

People who are doing 10man cannot go and run 25 for that same benefit. We wont get any options; instead 25man becomes vastly superior to 10 in terms of how fast you can progress.

I enjoy raiding with 9 of my friends, I don't want to have to go back to a 25man guild and all the drama that comes with it purely because that's the only way to experience the full game.

Same thing happens if you diminish loot or difficulty in 10s, suddenly they become "the easy mode" that anyone can faceroll through, and people who want to raid properly or max their character have to do 25. As it stands some fights are harder on 10, some on 25 and I prefer it that way.

But it's an option. No one is forcing you do run both. You can learn to be a better player like Draztal suggested.

If we unlink 25 and 10, all 25man guilds can (and probably will) run 10s to get extra loot. That gives you the option to do other content.

People who are doing 10man cannot go and run 25 for that same benefit. We wont get any options; instead 25man becomes vastly superior to 10 in terms of how fast you can progress.

I enjoy raiding with 9 of my friends, I don't want to have to go back to a 25man guild and all the drama that comes with it purely because that's the only way to experience the full game.

Same thing happens if you diminish loot or difficulty in 10s, suddenly they become "the easy mode" that anyone can faceroll through, and people who want to raid properly or max their character have to do 25. As it stands some fights are harder on 10, some on 25 and I prefer it that way.

its not about you, its about how blizz thinks that people are not forced to run lfr and its a choice that the player make or a playstyle as they call it, but they think people were forced to run 10mans during wotlk for the loot and that was not a playstyle the people choose.

By this definition, I should be able to walk up to Lionel Messi, Kobe Bryant, Sebastian Vettel, Roger Federer... (you get the idea, I guess) and tell them I'm being super competitive in their respective sports because I'm competing in a local league putting a fraction of the time they are. The thing is, when looking at the grand scheme, I'm not. Not even close. There's a reason why the world first quality guilds usually get world firsts, and it's not just skill, there's also commitment, coordination and a myriad of factors.

Facepalmed reading this. Did you miss the point on purpose? What he's saying is that competitiveness exists at ALL LEVELS; Guilds like mine that raid 2 nights a week aren't measuring ourselves against Paragon - we're measuring ourselves on footing with similar guilds from our realm or against each other as individual players, or (once we're in BiS gear) against the world on DPS/Healing parsing sites... No-one's "walking up to Messi" and saying they're the competition; instead they have rivalries with people from other local leagues (to use your own analogy) and draw a sense of pride from being better than someone on their own level; being the best in their bracket.

The obligation to run LFR comes from the fact that you have replaced several sources of gear with LFR instead (see my earlier posts about weapon power) and so to perform well for their guild on progression, players will try to get that jump in power even if they don't enjoy the process.

As I already said, if you want LFR to be a choice then why are the no comparable items OUTSIDE OF LFR? Why no crafted epic weapons? Why no realistically obtainable dungeon epics like we had in TBC (last boss dropping an early raid level item)? 1% drop rate is not something anyone will be trying to grind out.

I find it rather mind-boggling that the idea of competitiveness coming from blue posts can't get beyond getting realm/world firsts. For one thing, there are lots of things people would probably consider as 'realm firsts' that aren't recognised as such. For example, the vast majority of world/realm first kills are going to come from hardcore guilds running 16-20+ hours per week. Guilds running 2 or 3 3-4 hour raids per week may well consider themselves in a separate bracket with others with similar time limits.

By this definition, I should be able to walk up to Lionel Messi, Kobe Bryant, Sebastian Vettel, Roger Federer... (you get the idea, I guess) and tell them I'm being super competitive in their respective sports because I'm competing in a local league putting a fraction of the time they are. The thing is, when looking at the grand scheme, I'm not. Not even close. There's a reason why the world first quality guilds usually get world firsts, and it's not just skill, there's also commitment, coordination and a myriad of factors.

Of course, if we start removing factors that we can't or don't want to meet, even playing rock-paper-scissors with your friend on the middle of Times Square is competitive, but the moment the discussion goes down that path, it's very unlikely we'll reach any kind of agreement on what's being discussed.

Thanks for the sports analogy, that's actually pretty helpful to my point. Do you consider the bottom 5 or so teams in the Spanish Primera Liga to not be competitive because they are weaker than Barcelona and Real Madrid? They have less money/resources - like some raiders have less time - so their objective may be getting at least 17th place to stay in the league, like some guilds may have the objective of being the best two or three night guild, even if they can't come close to competing with Paragon/Blood Legion/other such guilds in progression. What about those in the leagues below; is trying to get promoted to the next division up not competitive? Teams and guilds are competitive in their own bracket. You don't have to be winning the Champions' League, Superbowl, F1 title etc. to consider yourself a competitive sportsman/team. There's obviously a line to what can be considered competitive, as you say with rock paper scissors, 'pub league' football etc. (maybe dps meters in a 5 man could be a wow analogy to that), I just think you are drawing it drastically higher than you should.

Of course, not everyone can play at the 100% of their spec, but the jump those players may see from wearing all 463 to 476 compared to the jump from perfecting their rotations (working on them, or whichever area they might be failing in) would probably yield a greater result, and one that will outlast gear replacements in the long run; you're not likely to lose skill once you've acquired it after all.

There's not a whole lot of support in game for debugging other people's performance though. Sure with something like Recount or Skada then you can get a breakdown, but actually wading through and interpreting that data can be difficult, particularly if you're doing it from the perspective of a raid leader trying to debug their team. Are they expected to know the ins and outs of every spec to put people on the right path? Push them to the target dummies and experiment and see what happens? (course, tanks and healers can't do that). Or just link them Elitist Jerks and tell them Blizzard designed this fight around them following the optimal rotation, so they shouldn't deviate from the guide in any aspect?

I get that there's min/maxing, and I get that you can expect a certain amount of dedication and effort in performing well, but some portion of the end-game in WoW is essentially about upgrades, so the mentality is there to pursue them. Nobody wants to feel like they're letting their friends down, and so there is both a completionist and a social aspect to trying to improve your character to improve your odds of succeeding in encounters and making them easier. The trouble is that LFR provides upgrades and at fairly low "effort" but fairly high "tedium" cost. I could go into a whole rant at how LFR fails to encourage raid performance acceptable for normal etc but that's not the focus. The point is because the upgrade path is there then people feel obligated to run it. You can argue that's a playstyle choice, but wanting to do well is a choice the game really ought to reward rather than inflict pain to, shouldn't it?

I can't actually tell if you've not understood the point people have been making in the thread or if you're hamstrung by toeing a corporate PR line so you're just singing from the hymn sheet. Either way the impression is that there's a disconnect between what you think is optional and what people are feeling is mandatory to deliver progress.

Isn't this another reason why it'd do good to those players that feel they need the gear to instead improve their dps rotations, talents, gearing choices, etc, so that they can make the most benefit of their class rather than relying on getting higher gear? (I'm talking about those encounters that aren't dps checks, of course, at some point the developers expect the raid to be at a certain treshold of gear, and if that's not the case it's very likely you just won't be able to move forward until you get more upgrades)

Of course, not everyone can play at the 100% of their spec, but the jump those players may see from wearing all 463 to 476 compared to the jump from perfecting their rotations (working on them, or whichever area they might be failing in) would probably yield a greater result, and one that will outlast gear replacements in the long run; you're not likely to lose skill once you've acquired it after all.

Oh, I personally *agree*. Absolutely nothing trumps just spending more time on a boss. But I doubt many of these people agree, for a myriad of reasons, going from needing too much time to learn (which is somewhat true), inability to perform or concentrate enough despite their efforts, or feeling a lot too confident about their own abilities and not realizing they still have a lot to learn (reason #1 if you ask me... and this is true in mostly everything in life anyway)

When faced against what they consider a brick wall (at their respective level), most people tend to protect their ego and search for external solutions. This is mostly true in everything - in PvP, most players will blame their teammates or their class. In PvE, they'll blame their lack of time investment, bad guildies, bad gear, bad RNG or whatever. Coming to the realization that sometimes *you* need to improve yourself and are simply not good enough for the game isn't something many people will willingly experience. (Thankfully, I've learned that through shmup-type games myself.)

What seems inconsistent to me is that Normal modes (aside from the Sinestra tier) always had a lot of leeway regarding sheer numbers. I mean I don't even recall people even talking about the normal mode Yor'sahj or Blackhorn enrage timer because they were realistically unreachable unless you were doing it on purpose. It's a rude wake-up call for that target audience IMO, maybe too rude.

When faced against what they consider a brick wall (at their respective level), most people tend to protect their ego and search for external solutions. This is mostly true in everything - in PvP, most players will blame their teammates or their class. In PvE, they'll blame their lack of time investment, bad guildies, bad gear, bad RNG or whatever. Coming to the realization that sometimes *you* need to improve yourself and are simply not good enough for the game isn't something many people will willingly experience. (Thankfully, I've learned that through shmup-type games myself.)

You are from the 4th best guild in the world at the moment. You raid more than 3 times a week, correct? You spend months on the beta, correct? You capped your conquest for shoulders at least. You still got crafted epic items and daily quest grind, right? You still did LFR for 3 weeks correct? Maybe (just guessing) you bought some BoE items to give you that little extra edge.

We know that most of the top 100 guilds are better just better, but we still try to milk every little advantage from the game just like you do (pvp, profesions, LFR, etc).

BUT can you honestly say you didn't hate doing the LFR? It's a terrible place with terrible people and terrible attitudes. It's a watered down basterdized version of real raiding that just devaluates real raiding. Why does LFR have to be part of the Progression path when it is not intended to be for people with guilds?

What seems inconsistent to me is that Normal modes (aside from the Sinestra tier) always had a lot of leeway regarding sheer numbers. I mean I don't even recall people even talking about the normal mode Yor'sahj or Blackhorn enrage timer because they were realistically unreachable unless you were doing it on purpose. It's a rude wake-up call for that target audience IMO, maybe too rude.

Agreed but i will add one more thing - after 10 months of Ds which was eventually nerfed to 35% too many people have false feeling they are HC raiding guild - when in fact at some point HC bosses had less hp then initial normal bosses there - if DS went completly unnerfed through whole 10 months way less guilds would get it cleared on HC - hell even normal clears would take them a lot more time. And people would be looking much more realisticaly at raiding that they are doin it now -_-

It's not a "choice". It is Mandatory. You have to do it if you want to be competative even if you are not in a realm first guild.

Please, by all means, define competitive. What is competitive when you're not pursuing a realm first that actually warrants running Raid Finder on every single reset? Because frankly, I can't see it. And it might be a perfect valid point.

Even if you do not agree with people, it would be helpful if you would at least try to see the point. No one is forcing me at gunpoint to get the best gear possible. However, if I don't do everything I can to improve upon my gear, I am making things harder for the other 9 people in my 10-man normal raid. This feels to me exactly the same as me not enchanting my gear, or not gemming or reforging it. Yes, it's perfectly possible to raid without doing either of those things, but at the same time I'm gimping 9 other people who do put the time and effort in.

So no, Blizzard doesn't force us to do anything, we do that ourselves. But Blizzard knows fully well that we do this out of social pressure and because of this a lot of people will do it regardless of the fact that they don't like it. What this results in is that these people will burn out from content more quickly all in favour of making LFR work out for those people that generally would not be able to raid because they can't or won't put in the time needed for normal modes.

Anyway, in short: we are not forced, but we feel forced to do it because of social pressure. At least take some trouble to acknowledge that concern and try to address it, because it's a bigger problem than you make it out to be here.

I'm by no means in a hardcore guild (we only have 3 bosses down in MV normal as of yesterday) but most of our raiders complain openly about having to join LFR. And no, my guild does not forced them to do this, they do it to themselves.

BUT can you honestly say you didn't hate doing the LFR? It's a terrible place with terrible people and terrible attitudes. It's a watered down basterdized version of real raiding that just devaluates real raiding. Why does LFR have to be part of the Progression path when it is not intended to be for people with guilds?

I don't hate it any more than doing dailies, farming consumables or anything. I don't find it particularly exciting. I don't find doing my tillerquests to get my farm bigger particularly exciting. I just see these things as something that grants me an edge and I'll do anything to get an edge because I think that edge is worth it (as I enjoy progression raiding at the top level), so all in all it becomes worth it in the end.

The only parts I dislike about LFR are the randomness of loot (it feels even more helpless in LFR to fight the loot tables), and the fact that I believe different buckets of people (skill-wise) should play in separate instances instead of revisiting the same content (and yes, I'd wish for content for everyone regardless), but that's design decisionsthat unrelated to the topic at hand.

What I hear the raiders in this thread say is: "I want the best gear possible so I don't gimp my raid mates... I just don't want to put in the hours for it."

You're all agreeing that LFR (and VP gear for that matter too) isn't a MUST have to be able to complete normal mode raids. This makes it a "Nice to have".

You know what else is "Nice to have"? 300% mount speed. Sure makes getting around a whole lot easier, but only having a 160% flying mount doesn't restrict you from going anywhere. Sure other people will get to nodes faster than you and your gathering will be gimped. You either live with that or you put in the hours to earn enough gold for 300% flight.

LFR is the raiders 300% mount. You want it? you earn it! or you live with the fact that your progress will be slower than anyone who earned it

The guild I´m in cleared normal with like 1 or 2 people having 1 LFR item each, the rest was ilvl 463 gear or crafted Epic gear. Every wipe we had was not due to gear. If everyone in the raid is geared in ilvl 463 gear, you can clear the whole instance with right tactics granted you use flasks/food/dps pots.

If your guild lacks right co-ordination, people do not use flasks/food/pots, dps are not doing what they are suposed to then yes, you will have to outgear the content to be able to progress and in this case doing LFR.