Moltres is not great against the likes of gyarados, tentacruel and kabutops.

At the moment, Golduck and Poliwrath are so absurdly far ahead of the rest of UU, I dont see how this could be any worse. At least this way it would be tidy.

There is no way Moltres is going into OU..

And even considering Moltres, when you have the option of Charizard, who is faster, can Slash or SD, and EQ. At least that way you have options. Unlike at the moment when if you want a fire type you basically always use Ninetales. Or I mean, you can be creative and use Rapidash, which is basically exactly the same thing as Ninetales.

Even if we promote Nite, Cloy and Bel, we may end up with a bit of a wrapfest though..

Btw, changing OU too would most likely wield some changes in the "OU veterans" (like Jolteon or Dragonite), not like it matters, but it's something to think about.

It seems like it's already been decided, so there's not much point in me arguing about it, but... is this necessary? I believe that the obvious faults in the old tiering systems simply show how far smogon has come and how much the tiering proccess has been improved. There would be a relevance in "correcting" RBY UU if anyone played it, but since this isn't the case, what's the point in making any sort of change, especially when you can't have accurate estimates of what's UU and what isn't? I mean, there are no usage stats to determine which pokemon fall down a certain percentage, and we obviously can't have a suspect test in a dead tier.

Should we really be revamping old tiers when there's no pressing reason to do so?

Well to be honest this isnt a 15 year old tier set. This is something I made up with some input from JMC and Justin for Smogon.

I am pretty sure we know that Cloyster is used more than Persian. I mean this is from compiled anecdotal evidence, but really, in this situation I have a great deal of faith in it. I mean, lets be honest, is anyone really questioning the accuracy?

If Jolteon is seeing a lot of use, that would surprise me, but it could well be that it is..

But the reason for this basically is that I just played RBY UU and it sucked. I might play RBY UU a couple of times in the future as well. Tampering with this is not like tampering with RBY OU because to be honest, nobody ever played RBY UU. There are probably historical uu tiers that have seen more usage than the Smogon one. This tier list was made after Advanced was out.

There is definitely more balance between Jolteon and Raichu than there is between Electabuzz and Electrode.

There is a way to gather RBY stats, just use the RBY stadium when battleing. The current stats aren't really significant, since most people don't use the stadium but here you see the current RBY top 20:

It makes sense that some NFEs are BL, and by "some" I do mean Kadabra and Haunter. They're only a little worse than their 3rd tier evolutions in terms of stats and can function very well within that tier.

We frequently play each tier (casual and tournament battles), and we see an assortment of teams, with different pokes being the "hero" of the team each battle. There is really no (over)centralization, especially when compared to OU team variation.

You will note from that link that we play each tier as an actual tier, and NOT as merely a ban tier. BL is a perfectly viable metagame after Jolteon and Articuno move out of it. There is no (over)centralization. We also observed that Charizard and Sandslash were NEVER used in BL, so we all tested them out for a few weeks on UU teams and found that they fit very well. I'm not sure why they were banned in the first place, years ago. We've found that UU teams without Charizard/Sandslash have no problem against other UU teams.

Before making any changes based on speculation/memory, definitely come play with us and see how balanced things are. We've done everyone carefully, with much testing and discussion. No hasty decisions here.

"At the moment, Golduck and Poliwrath are so absurdly far ahead of the rest of UU."

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Frankly that isn't true. Mimic Dewgong/Vaporeon shuts that down easily. Growth Tangela, and especially SW Pinsir are more of a threat. We've also found that Charizard and Sandslash fit into UU nicely with no imbalance.

My plan is to remove borderline altogether from RBY.

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This almost sounds like a fait accompli, as though you've made a unilateral decision and this is merely a notification. :D Hopefully I'm just misreading/misinterpreting your tone.

I strongly advise and request that you join Zilch, Icy, and me in playing some BL and UU (and even NU) matches on NBS, and you'll see that it is perfectly balanced with the (few) changes we've made to the old tiers.

~

Moving all of the BL pokemon (except the exceptions you listed) merely brings BL down to UU. None of the current UU pokes would ever be used, and consequently you'd just bump all of them down into a lower tier. It really makes no sense.

Why is Raichu borderline? What's so good about him? I thought his stats and move-pool suck :s

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His stats are excellent - his special stat is only a little worse than Jynx's or Lapras's, and he ties in speed with Tentacruel and Dodrio, losing only to Kadabra (who'll probably get paralysed quickly) and obviously Dugtrio in the same tier (and Jolteon IF you count him). He also has a rather respectable attack stat, making Body Slam and Hyper Beam hurt quite a bit.

As for his movepool, Thunderbolt and Surf provide good coverage - just predict the ground-types switching so that you're not in a disadvantageous situation. Grass-types and Psychics with their high special pose a trouble for him though.

His stats are excellent - his special stat is only a little worse than Jynx's or Lapras's, and he ties in speed with Tentacruel and Dodrio, losing only to Kadabra (who'll probably get paralysed quickly) and obviously Dugtrio in the same tier (and Jolteon IF you count him). He also has a rather respectable attack stat, making Body Slam and Hyper Beam hurt quite a bit.

As for his movepool, Thunderbolt and Surf provide good coverage - just predict the ground-types switching so that you're not in a disadvantageous situation. Grass-types and Psychics with their high special pose a trouble for him though.

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Forgot he learns Surf >_<

Raichu owns, I love his sprite in Yellow.

In-Game, I only choose my team based on how much I like their sprites.

The Eeevee evolution chain OFC has good sprites in Yellow as well. Obviously so though :D

@waterwizard
Ok, then consider this from smogons point of view where BL is not a playable tier. If BL is balanced, the correct name for it should be UU.

I did play a few games. I will tell you about my team.

It was:
Electabuzz (necessary on all teams)
Vaporeon (ridiculously overpowered, beats Electabuzz one on one, as well as basically every other pokemon)
Poliwrath (incredible sweeper, and can sleep)
Golduck (even better sweeper than Poliwrath)
Raticate (used because it can kill Golducks, Vaporeons and Poliwraths in one sleep), Kabutops (I like Kabutops - I like Omastar more tbh, but it is bad against Poli, Golduck and Vap)

I dont know if mimic is glitched on NB, but the one in 4 chance of getting amnesia is actually just bad. Not to mention it is slower than Golduck and ties Poli, so you probably have to take two amnesia boosted surfs before you can use amnesia. And the issue I really have is the water type centralisation forces it too often into a freeze war. If you can counter waters with more waters, you arent really solving the problem. Sure you could use Dewgong instead of Vaporeon, but really, that's like using Rhydon instead of Golem.

Really if you arent using three water types in a UU team, then I think you are doing something pretty silly. In light of this, I am not surprised Charizard isnt overbalancing.

Pinsir is definitely top tier UU as far as I can tell, the only thing that would make it more of a threat than the waters is if there are three waters on everybodies team.

Tangela is top tier too, but really that is more as an Electabuzz counter and status spreader. It just doesnt do enough damage.

This almost sounds like a fait accompli, as though you've made a unilateral decision and this is merely a notification. :D Hopefully I'm just misreading/misinterpreting your tone.

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Eh, I am going to listen to people, You will just need to be convincing is all. There isnt actually any real process for changing RBY tiers, I dont think I will be able to just make a decision without a lot of support.

I strongly advise and request that you join Zilch, Icy, and me in playing some BL and UU (and even NU) matches on NBS, and you'll see that it is perfectly balanced with the (few) changes we've made to the old tiers.

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NU shouldnt be affected by any decision made here. Unless just to change its name.

Moving all of the BL pokemon (except the exceptions you listed) merely brings BL down to UU. None of the current UU pokes would ever be used, and consequently you'd just bump all of them down into a lower tier. It really makes no sense.

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Well from what I can tell from what you are saying, is that according to how smogon's tiers should work, you are agreeing with me more or less. What I am talking about is official smogon recognition of the BL tier. With this there comes a shifting around of names.

Am I correct in my understanding that rby2k10 tiers are based on wrap being banned? Do you think this would have an impact on the tiering?

I am gonna make a double post to sorta make a better explanation of my thought process for tiering.

Then Golbat, Omastar, Aerodactyl, Jynx, Articuno and Arbok dont really fit. Did I miss anything? [edit] - Gengar! I am pretty sure you could make a case for a Gengar > Golbat.

There isnt much in there that is really that controversial. Yes weaker pokes do have some advantages over their stronger counterparts, this isnt saying that the greater poke should always be used over the weaker, just that it almost always should.

Tiering is really about what point in these hierarchies we think we should stop.

Electabuzz is out of its depth in UU at the moment, but it is almost always used because it is the best water available. The strongest electric will always be used, and it will always have issues with grounds. The point where the electric hierarchy is closest is between Raichu and the pokemon either side (not including mag/trode). If we have Jolteon legal, people will use Raichu, if Raichu is the peak, people will use Electabuzz, though probably fewer than would use Raichu with Jolteon.

So from that hierarchy's perspective, the best cutoff point is to legalise Jolteon. The only question is can we balance that with the other hierarchies.

The physical normal hierarchy is closest around Kangaskhan IMO.
The special normal hierarchy is just miles apart, you will never use two of those pokemon (except clefable and chansey).
The ground hierarchy is obviously closest at the nidos, but no one will use nidoqueen over king if king is allowed. the king ban is pretty unintuitive but from that hierarchies perspective, chosing between slash and queen is as good as it will get (aside golem/rhydon).
The psychics are closest at Hypno and Kadabra. They will be both used a lot in BL. Possibly also with MrMime. But they are pretty fucking strong.
The grass/bug hierarchy is obviously going to be Tangela/Venomoth whatever we do.
The special water tier seems best balanced at Tenta/Gyara.
The water/ice tier is pretty limited. It is really going to depend on whether Cloyster is deemed used enough to be OU. Based on how encompassing the other gen tiers are, I think it should be. So that leaves us with Dewgong.
The Amnesia water tier is obvious.
In the fighting tier we could ban champ, and it would be a lot more balanced. But this tier sucks too much to do that.
To explain the fire tier decision to ban Zard. It was that the best balance here is between ninetales and the rest. They are all pretty close, but Zard is just way better than all of them. However, with the current water dominance in UU, it doesnt make sense to ban Zard. And considering I just suggested unbanning Gyarados, I dont think we could possibly justify this. Then Moltres is pretty strong, but its definitely not OU. The question of should we have a BL just for Moltres, well I dont think we should start like that anyway.
The other Hierarchies are all clearly UU. And the leftovers are pretty obvious to place.

There is no real legitimacy in our current UU tier. I think BL will be more varied and balanced. I think at the moment you can get away with balance in uu because no one is really metagaming it. But seriously, Vaporeon is fucking ridiculous. The only thing stopping this from being patently obvious to everyone is the presence of the even more ridiculous amnesia users.

My concerns in terms of balance of BL really are all just about will Hypno dominate too much? And maybe Jolteon, but really it will just be as groundbait as ever.

Am I correct in my understanding that rby2k10 tiers are based on wrap being banned? Do you think this would have an impact on the tiering?

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Yes, Wrap and these moves are banned, and I guess it has an impact on the tiering

Waters dominate UU, but Vaporeon not really so much when you realise that amnesiers and Kingler can set up in his face, and although Vap lears haze, it takes damage from Kingler's Slam in hte process and can't really touch amnesiers much meaning hell have to rest against them. Moreover, a predicted haze cures status problems.

Unless wrap is banned, tentacruel should probably be excluded from uu. Only electabuzz and jolteon can switch in to it without losing to either wrap or hydro pump, and they both still take tons of damage when crit. Another option is just banning wrap on tentacruel I guess.

I think hypno will be used on most teams, so it might be worth banning. With more pokemon available it's easier to deal with than amnesia waters are currently though.

Vaporeon (ridiculously overpowered, beats Electabuzz one on one, as well as basically every other pokemon)

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How are you getting that? Electabuzz uses Thunder Wave and follows with Thunderbolt until Vaporeon is dead. They both 3HKO each other, and after using Thunder Wave, Vaporeon gets the first hit. Across three turns, Vaporeon has a 42% chance to avoid FPing, and Electabuzz about a 50% chance to not get CH'd. That's in Electabuzz's favor.

I dont know if mimic is glitched on NB, but the one in 4 chance of getting amnesia is actually just bad.

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It's glitched; you can't get a move you already have. So for a Golduck with Ice Beam, Surf, Amnesia and Rest, if you use Dewgong (who's immune to Ice) with Ice Beam, Surf, Rest and Mimic, you're guaranteed to get Amnesia.

And the issue I really have is the water type centralisation forces it too often into a freeze war. If you can counter waters with more waters, you arent really solving the problem. Sure you could use Dewgong instead of Vaporeon, but really, that's like using Rhydon instead of Golem.

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Not really. If you switch to a Physical on Rest (such as Fearow, Raticate, Pinsir, and others), you can finish them off before they wake. I currently just use Golduck for Waters, and Vaporeon users can also use Haze.

Really if you arent using three water types in a UU team, then I think you are doing something pretty silly. In light of this, I am not surprised Charizard isnt overbalancing.

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I use 1 and have had a lot of success. Actually, in our UU tournament a long while ago, all of the top three players used different Pokemon and slayed us Water users (when I believed what you believe now). Here's some logs from Grand Finals. We're actually running a UU tournament currently and the heavy usage of Waters isn't really happening. Come play me and I'll show you. ;D

Eh, I am going to listen to people, You will just need to be convincing is all. There isnt actually any real process for changing RBY tiers, I dont think I will be able to just make a decision without a lot of support.

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Our tiers are pretty solid, but we ban Wrap, so I don't know how they'd be different for you. One thing though is you should make sure everyone knows whether you're making tiers based on OU-effectiveness or if you're trying to make them all competitive.

Graveler is better than Onix, and Dugtrio is third by far for taking out Gengar, doing fair damage to Tauros/Starmie and going about even with Alakazam. Much more useful than the Nidos. Sandslash is overrated and not really worth trying to setup with.

There isnt much in there that is really that controversial. Yes weaker pokes do have some advantages over their stronger counterparts, this isnt saying that the greater poke should always be used over the weaker, just that it almost always should.

Yes, Wrap and these moves are banned, and I guess it has an impact on the tiering

Waters dominate UU, but Vaporeon not really so much when you realise that amnesiers and Kingler can set up in his face, and although Vap lears haze, it takes damage from Kingler's Slam in hte process and can't really touch amnesiers much meaning hell have to rest against them. Moreover, a predicted haze cures status problems.

Not necessary, but ideal for every team, the same way Tauros is in OU.

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Then it's necessary.. haha

Electabuzz uses Thunder Wave and follows with Thunderbolt until Vaporeon is dead

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Umm, why would you TWave first?

Originally Posted by Fat HipmonleeSo from that hierarchy's perspective, the best cutoff point is to legalise Jolteon.
Jolteon is pretty powerful...

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Inevitably, there's something more powerful in every tier. Now it's Poli/Vap/Golduck, if we add Jolti, then it would probably be Jolti. Different meta. Remember that there is Graveler/Sandlash to wall it though.