I own multiple Falcon NorthWest computers (PCs) and they lock up/crash about once a month if that. There is definately something to be said about a quality built PC over say Dell or HP. I'd also say it's never locked up while "working," but while playing poorly coded games.

A properly designed system should not "crash" when running applications, even "poorly coded' ones. The only thing that should cause a true system crash is a hardware failure. This is pretty much unavailable with the unstable commodity systems foisted on consumers today - This poor system design is now making its way to home theater components, as evidenced by the HD playback equipment that needs "software upgrades" to function properly (play the content without misbehavior). The constant exposure to unstable systems (mostly windows), has conditioned most people to accept this as standard behavior for a computer-controlled device, even though prior-generation A/V hardware never exhibited this.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lotus

I also fully believe in keeping my system clean of un-needed programs running in the background.

This is a good practice for performance, but again, application programs should not impact the stability of the system.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lotus

Also locking up and crashing is not a PC only symptom. My sister complains regularly about her Macs doing the same thing before she just goes out and buys a new one. She get a new Mac about every 12 to 18 months. I've got an 8 year old Falcon that still runs strong and rarely if ever crashes.

I've got a 333 Mhz Beige G3 tower that is connected to the internet, and direct dial-in as a multi-network BBS server (HTTP/SMTP/POP3/TELNET, FTP, NNTP, etc), as well as a local file server, that is under constant attack by infected windows PCs, and it has been running continously for YEARS. Prior to that I had a 601 based tower that I gave away still operating flawlessly in the same role, and a Mac II that did the same thing until lightning took it out. Alongside those are SGI systems that never crash until the HD fails.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lotus

I fully believe both systems are likely just as stable as the other. It's what you do with it and allow to run on it that changes that.

I do not believe this, because the underlying operating system on the Macintosh has over 30 years of multi-user/multi-tasking design maturity underneath the hood, where as the Microsoft product is poorly concieved mix of legacy code (C\:, anyone??) and feature theft from other operating systems. The Macintosh user interface to this operating system is a recent creation, as is the applications intefaces and most recent hardware - There is not much differentiating an Intel based Mac hardware from Intel based PC hardware, but there is a hell of difference in the OS.

I do believe the aggregate stability of the Mac is not as high as it used to be, because of (1) the commodity parts now used to lower the price and remove any perceived "clock frequency" disparity between them and PCs of the same vintage, and (2) the newer user and application binary interfaces.

My perception may be wrong, but it is a perception based upon the experience I've had using the crap out of the Mac platform, beginning with a Mac 512 under Finder and "MultiFinder", through a Mac II running System 6.0x to System 7, an 8100/80 AV running System 7.5-8.x, until now, running a PowerPC G3 running MacOS 9.1, a PowerPC G4 tower and laptop under Mac OS X v 10.4.x. I have a small amount of experience with G5 and Intel based macs, too.

A properly designed system should not "crash" when running applications, even "poorly coded' ones. The only thing that should cause a true system crash is a hardware failure.

The key word there is the word "should," but give me a Mac and I can code you up something that will make it crash. As mentioned before my Falcons have never crashed not surfing the web or using work applications. It just hasn't happened. Only poorly coded games lock up the machine and generally it's a bug that needs an update to fix it.

The key word there is the word "should," but give me a Mac and I can code you up something that will make it crash.

Give me a Windows PC and I (or most malcontent kids) can make it crash with ease. The ones people use at my workplace are so burdoned with "scanning/protection" software that they are as slow as molasses, even when brand new. Incompatability with legacy programs are all too common. Cadres of "Support people" are required to keep them in some semblance of a running condition, even in a "managed desktop" (locked business application) environment.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lotus

As mentioned before my Falcons have never crashed not surfing the web or using work applications. It just hasn't happened.

Your example almost states "Don't use the PC for anything and it won't dissapoint." My Macintoshes have never crashed while surfing the web or even serving it. The problems I have experienced are attributable to hardware failures - lightning strikes, hard disk failures, etc. The worst of these probably are (1) the poor design of the prior generation of laptop power supplies, which is addressed in the current offerings, and (2) the higher failure rate of the IDE based drives over their SCSI counterparts - alas that is the price we pay for commodity high capacity storage.

As I stated previously, my systems are under a constant attack from malware trying to plant viral code, cause buffer overflows or php script execution to obtain a command line to elevate privelege, with the intent of running Windows adminstrative commands - all to no avail. I know they are windows computers because my web servers record the cpu and OS type along with the Browser name string for all access attempts. The mail server does something similar. The worst they can do is overload my pipe and bring down the connection. I have no power to stop that.

Pre- Mac-OS X versions of the Macintosh had memory management and cooperative multi-tasking problems, as well as "extensions conflicts" that were the root of instability. Mac OS X removed all of these, though it is still possible to create a kernel extension that will misbehave and bring down everything. The windowing system (finder) can also be made to crash, and sometimes it will not be possible to restart it automatically. This is actually different than a system crash in that if you have access to the underlying OS, you can spawn a new instance from a command line. If the OS is truly down, then this is impossible.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lotus

Only poorly coded games lock up the machine and generally it's a bug that needs an update to fix it.

The word "update" you use is just the same as the phrase "software update" I used in my prior comments. I assert that this is not a true fix for the real problem. I also assert that the Macintosh is acquiring many of the undesirable charecteristics of Windows PCs, including the dribbleware update, rather than design, that is not released until it is is correct. Prior versions of the Mac OS had few of these, but now there is a fairly constant stream of them. I'm no insider, so I do not know how many of them are do to poorly designed software, and how many are work-arounds for the commodity hardware now being used.

Lets get back to the thread topic - My comment on that point is I do not know why Apple doesn't put an HD player in their computers, other than perhaps a cost sensitivity issue. I do know that they provide a means to create HD content in their "iLife" suite for consumers and in their 'Final Cut Studio" product for professionals, and have been doing so for years. They announced early on their support for BluRay, and I for one wish they'd get with the program and install that BD RW disk in their laptops.

Lets get back to the thread topic - My comment on that point is I do not know why Apple doesn't put an HD player in their computers, other than perhaps a cost sensitivity issue. I do know that they provide a means to create HD content in their "iLife" suite for consumers and in their 'Final Cut Studio" product for professionals, and have been doing so for years. They announced early on their support for BluRay, and I for one wish they'd get with the program and install that BD RW disk in their laptops.

Now that's a good laugh...wait - let me take time out to laugh (LOL!!!!!)! Cost being the issue on a Mac!?? When you sell a computer for 2000.00 plus - what would an extra 200 to 400 do to put an HD driver in it - especially when you are supporting Bluray? PC's have BD burners for under 400.00 now - believe me when I say price is not the real issue.

Laugh all you, want - but I am serious. Cost is (possibly) not the issue - Mac users historically pony up more for their computers than PC users do. The combination of capability, flexibility and ease of use for that cost IS the issue (for me at least). Why would I pay more for a Macintosh that DOES LESS than the Macintosh I already have. It has a smaller display, and not as much storage nor as much connectivity as the Mac I have now. I cannot connect my camcorder to it, yet it comes with applications to make Movies and burn them to DVD.... How many of those sub-$400 PCs you refer to having BD burners are laptops.... Eyes rolled in response...

Quote:

Originally Posted by prerich

Now that's a good laugh...wait - let me take time out to laugh (LOL!!!!!)! Cost being the issue on a Mac!?? When you sell a computer for 2000.00 plus - what would an extra 200 to 400 do to put an HD driver in it - especially when you are supporting Bluray? PC's have BD burners for under 400.00 now - believe me when I say price is not the real issue.