I wonder if there is a comparison to the sales of diamonds. Companies hold on to mass quantities of diamonds so that they can sell them for the greatest profit. Profit for the company, not so good for the people who like to own diamonds. They get to pay more per diamond and have less choice. I am guessing that it is the ZFT's belief that if one was to provide mass quantities of cds, it would make for worse sales of the stuff that they have in the warehouse. The people who buy cds would be happier because they get more choice. But the company is worse off because it has to make more material and sell it for less because there is so much of it and their current inventory doesn't budge.Mp3s aren't an inventory problem, but it does water down the content. I do wonder if sales of Z in NY or Best Band would suffer if there were a Grateful Dead or King Crimson amount of live material available. I believe that the ZFT would rather have one FZ-mixed awesome live album than 20 quick-mix live shows from the same period, even though fans would obviously choose all of the above. Of course, if the answer is to take your time and eventually make a ton of live albums, well, that is what they are doing.

IMHO, Mp3's are an alternative...those of us that "collect" music look for things in a loss-less format; (.flac, .shn, etc.) Some people are just lazy and want the Mp3 to to go right on their iPod and be done with it... if you recall, when they re-released Mothermania, it came out in Mp3, and everyone bitched because there wasn't an alternative for a loss-less version, then they relented and put it out.

MY biggest complaint is that they worry more about the packaging! (and then soak you for the product) The fact that they stuck all that crap in the Hammersmith show, or the stupid package that the Freak Out box set came is is just ridiculous! MOST of us collect MUSIC, not the junk! And with how the trend in how people "store" their music is turning into "just stick it on my computer, load it on my iPod and be done with it" is how things are going...heck some bands aren't even releasing ALBUMS anymore, just the odd single, for download, and they keep a flow of cash coming in.... The fact that you can only hear Zappa on Sirius/XM radio doesn't help MARKET his music in any way, shape or form, so Yeah, LACK of new fans is a problem, and you'd think that they'd go for less overhead, more volume to keep those of us OLD fans happy!

Heck, Gail could send some tapes to one of the big recording schools, let them mix it, then bring it back have THEIR staff tweak it, and master it, then offer it for download, and make a volume sale, rather than one BIG recording per year (as it seems) and make more money...

Sorry...I just don't get their rationale in this anymore....I think that the Joe's _____ series, and the Road Tapes series are steps in the right direction, but there aren't enough to keep a lot of us interested, and when they decide upon these MAJOR releases, it seems like they over blow the stuff that doesn't matter. The whole Roxy thing was financed by people willing to put up their money to do the processing of it, and yet, they STILL can't seem to get it right...less "production" would MAKE them money, that they could keep releasing some of the major events...

I dunno Jaminbenb, it seems like year all over the map addressing availability, price vs profit, format, business plan, production style, packaging... but then saying its all about the music. Personally, I would hate it if they outsourced the mastering to Full Sail or whoever. They may make weak mixes sometimes, but I do get the idea that they put a good deal of energy in trying to make it sound as good as possible.Btw, plenty of flacs sound no better than mp3s, format is rarely a problem when I listen in the car, wash the dishes, write a report for work, run laboratory tests or 99% of the time I can listen. For the small percentages of the top-shelf mixes that I listen to, in the small percentages of great listening environments, in the small percentages of times the equipment is up to the task, sure I love the best. The rest of the time 192 mp3s are fine.

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Don't Be Stupid Unless You Want To

I would agree with everything you said if we're not for the fact that Zappa's fan base is probably shrinking, and that fan base probably reached some sort of saturation point within the last 20years. (I know new fans do appear from time to time, but you get my drift. The Younger generation would probably D/l everything for nothing anyway. Plus, when GZ carks it, what then?

I think, with my 31 years I can say I'm part of the "Younger generation".I started buying everything from Zappa about 8 years ago, because I hate downloading stuff! I got about 60 vinyls, more than 100 cds, 20 tapes, some books, dvds and other stuff (edit: only Zappa, I got about 1500 vinyls and 1000 cds)When I like an artist I want to hold the stuff in my hands and look at it and not just some lifeless mp3/flac shit!

_________________You have just destroyed one model XQJ-37 Nuclear Powered Pan-Sexual Roto-PlookerAnd you're gonna have to pay for it!

I think that the fans do want physical product. I can understand that sometimes the ZFT overdo the packaging, but I liked the MOFO 4 disc and was happy they puyt that into it. What I have a problem with is the lateness of the product, do not announce it unless you are shipping it soon.

A more revealing audio system will expose any crap recording.You will hear the improvement from mp3 to cd to sacd to vinyl etc.

Once the bug has bitten you you can't go back to a horrible recording no matter how you love the artist's music. You will search out that album in the best quality recording possible.

And live in bliss thereafter....

"audiophiles" aren't snobs......they're just "infected."

I somewhat agree, but how often do you listen in a great environment where you can enjoy it like that? Most people work, go to school, have a life where listening in an ideal environment is a very small percentage of the time. The more I talk to people who have assessed themselves as audiophiles, the more it has to do with being trendy (small 't'), trying to be cool, trying to be thought of as wise in terms of audio, trying to be thought of as having great ears. There are a lot of bullshitters who call themselves audiophiles. Analyzing sound is not the same as Enjoying sound and flacs often don't lead to a better listening experience, rather just a more haughty one. I HAVE gone back to lesser systems because I would rather listen to tunes all day long, rather than only when sitting in the middle of a DVD-a system or in a studio control room with a Class A amp. Beatles shit was recorded on Altec-Lansings. Does that mean one can only listen to it on those kind of speakers? Using better, more modern speakers/equipment/format isn't what was used years ago, therefore calling it audiophile is a lie. Revealing artifacts from deep in a mix isn't a de facto higher quality, or a more proper or more enjoyable playback. Audiophiles often act like someone walking around with a pair of binoculars over their eyes saying "You all don't see the world like I do". Good.

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Don't Be Stupid Unless You Want To

I'm old enough to have owned an 8-track player when they first came out. I have to say that I was mighty happy blasting the music in the car or locked away in my teenage bedroom hideaway regardless of format. It was always about the music first, whether it was a scratchy 7" or a cassette with no high-end and massive hiss. Almost 50 years of collecting and yes I prefer to have the best sound possible, but I can't take Anthony Gallo Acoustics Reference speakers wherever and whenever I want to listen to music. So I listen to the best format I have available for the situation I'm listening. Do I mind the wacky packaging? Not as long as it isn't every release. I enjoyed the MOFO package and it's not that big a deal to keep on the shelf.

I'm not a suck ass, but I don't feel like I need to attack the ZFT for their lack of commercial skills. I think it's kind of amusing but really it's their business model not ours. Good advice is only as good as the person's willingness to listen. We can easily sit back and list off all the potential options they have to accelerate their releases and operate in a more efficient way. But in the end they own it.

You know I listen to and collect hundreds of different artists' recordings. I could probably bitch about the same issues the ZFT have with almost every major label. Delays, missing back catalog or live releases, and on and on. Life goes on. Not having RBP isn't going to stop me from listening to Zappa music, or buying or listening to tons of other music. Is it stupid that they keep promising the release and changing the date? Yes. Does it really matter? No to me.

A more revealing audio system will expose any crap recording.You will hear the improvement from mp3 to cd to sacd to vinyl etc.

Once the bug has bitten you you can't go back to a horrible recording no matter how you love the artist's music. You will search out that album in the best quality recording possible.

And live in bliss thereafter....

"audiophiles" aren't snobs......they're just "infected."

It's also about knowing HOW to play it back! When I was in recording school, we had a night at the prof's house, and he demonstrated how things sounded (using Steely Dan's Aja album as his test album) We went through several formats, and several speaker types, and all decided that with the correct playback equipment, it doesn't matter! (but this was well before Mp3's were around) So when I hear someone claiming that VINYL is the ULTIMATE FORMAT for playback, I have to laugh! You want it to SOUND like vinyl? Push your low end...simple solution...

Higher bandwidth Mp3's DO have a better quality than what most people cram onto their iPod's, but IMHO, I think they are still lacking in depth...I haven't heard a higher quality Mp3 that just gives me what I want in a good environment ...sitting in my basement, triangulated between my speakers, low lighting, with a glass of wine...kind of like the old Memorex ad! But when it comes down to it, you're getting nothing different with a .flac file when you burn it to a cd-r than you get with a store bought cd..it's all the same as what you buy, and your only problem is if your cd-r is going to stand the test of time...personally, I'll leave the Mp3's to my iPod...I'd prefer a better quality file to begin with.

But back to the Full Sail comment...I'd be willing to bet that 80% of what's sitting on tape in the vaults has a decent enough quality that even a newbie would be able to make it sound better...I visited that school and they have a GOOD basis for education, and I think that you can learn enough...heck, they've placed enough people into business...but being that the ZFT is in California, I was thinking some of the other West Coast schools, that aren't QUITE as " get 'em in and get 'em out" as Full Sail is... Not that I follow it much anymore, but there are some good schools within their grasp, and pre-production on a mix is better than starting from scratch!

Jaminbenb and jeddy...I'm sure that you enjoy yer glass of wine setup. That's fine, just don't let your date talk, it will interfere. Beyond that I'm confused. You want lossless playback in order to be able to call it "audiophile", but, you would trust FZ masters to students just so they can serve the spinach a bit faster? While I despise the name "audiophile", I barely trust Fillipetti or even Joe since he rarely gives technical information to the fans. It would seem we both have mixtures of high and low standards.

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Don't Be Stupid Unless You Want To

I dunno Jaminbenb, it seems like year all over the map addressing availability, price vs profit, format, business plan, production style, packaging... but then saying its all about the music. Personally, I would hate it if they outsourced the mastering to Full Sail or whoever. They may make weak mixes sometimes, but I do get the idea that they put a good deal of energy in trying to make it sound as good as possible.Btw, plenty of flacs sound no better than mp3s, format is rarely a problem when I listen in the car, wash the dishes, write a report for work, run laboratory tests or 99% of the time I can listen. For the small percentages of the top-shelf mixes that I listen to, in the small percentages of great listening environments, in the small percentages of times the equipment is up to the task, sure I love the best. The rest of the time 192 mp3s are fine.

Agree like when I'm at the lake on my pontoon, or sitting on the shore, the list goes on, cd's and the I pod are great, remember the old Steve Martin, comedy routine when he described the first great stereo he bought when he got rich? Listen honey, we can really hear the pops and his what a great turn table.

_________________A government Bureau is the closest thing to eternal life on earth that you will ever see

Jaminbenb and jeddy...I'm sure that you enjoy yer glass of wine setup. That's fine, just don't let your date talk, it will interfere. Beyond that I'm confused. You want lossless playback in order to be able to call it "audiophile", but, you would trust FZ masters to students just so they can serve the spinach a bit faster? While I despise the name "audiophile", I barely trust Fillipetti or even Joe since he rarely gives technical information to the fans. It would seem we both have mixtures of high and low standards.

Audiophile? me? nope...not even close...the majority of my listening is on my iPod at the gym, or cd in my car, or just blasting on my home stereo...the sitting having wine is an occasional thing, but I can make the crap sound better...

I have several hundred Zappa bootlegs that I listen to on a fairly regular basis...a few that I've found to be amazing! (Ed Mann told me of a few shows where the band played things like Mo & Herbs Vacation) and I've found those, and listen to them a lot! Nope...not an audiophile, I want shows! I know plenty of people that own bootlegs, that would kill for a soundboard version of a few...even a Full Sail kid in his first month would be able to do a good enough job.

LOSSLESS is FULL BANDWIDTH...Mp3 takes away things. I don't get where you're coming from with this argument?

My biggest issue with the ZFT is betting that 99% of their hold up is PACKAGING! Don't you think that the Roxy Masters are already mixed, and on disc? I'm betting that this puppy is waiting on artwork to get released!

128 mp3s lose a lot of things. 192, a couple things, but I would argue that it loses no more than is lost using an Ipod 1/8" jack. Bits get lost here and there, so what? Unless I am in an audiophile environment, what is the difference? I think we are close to agreement on this.However, I can't agree at all that a newbie board tech could troubleshoot. About anyone given a few minutes instruction can make a dub. Students can do that. But, without experience and a well-trained ear, it is another story to understand the previous format, find the trouble with the previous format, update it to a new version and make it pleasantly listenable without fucking up anything along the way. For example, most people argue that it is best to NOT EQ if transferring historical documents (FZ shows), thus keeping as much of the sonic trademark in place as possible. However, if the show was in a skating rink, it may be the only practical thing to do. Do I trust a new trainee to handle that? No way.

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Don't Be Stupid Unless You Want To

128 mp3s lose a lot of things. 192, a couple things, but I would argue that it loses no more than is lost using an Ipod 1/8" jack. Bits get lost here and there, so what? Unless I am in an audiophile environment, what is the difference? I think we are close to agreement on this.However, I can't agree at all that a newbie board tech could troubleshoot. About anyone given a few minutes instruction can make a dub. Students can do that. But, without experience and a well-trained ear, it is another story to understand the previous format, find the trouble with the previous format, update it to a new version and make it pleasantly listenable without fucking up anything along the way. For example, most people argue that it is best to NOT EQ if transferring historical documents (FZ shows), thus keeping as much of the sonic trademark in place as possible. However, if the show was in a skating rink, it may be the only practical thing to do. Do I trust a new trainee to handle that? No way.

I agree....that we'll continue to disagree on this...but if I'm listening to something at least on NS-10's, I'd like it to have a little better quality...but I'd still rather start with .flac, and be done with it...just an old "trading purist" I guess...

But when it comes to mixing live stuff... I don't give it as much scrutiny as something studio. Don't count out recording students...an old friend of mine (who worked for Concord Jazz) once said that a lot of guys start out pretty good, but get ruined by us old farts...A LOT of EQ is subjective..but if you can hear the whole band, it's all good!

NS-10s. Great speakers. I have a pair myself. But, let's face it, they are for monitoring, not for enjoyment. The bass is predictable, but not pleasant. NS-10s have been used so consistently for so long because they are predictable. You know that if X goes into them, you can predict the characteristics of the output and adjust your mix accordingly.

Jaminbenb wrote:

...but if you can hear the whole band, it's all good!

I like that.

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Don't Be Stupid Unless You Want To

@Arkay Too true about monitors. I fucked up a whole collection of mixes once trying some monitors that seemed to be doing a good job. It's not that obvious. My main problem with recording live music is that I overcook everything. If you've heard any of my music, the live band recordings are all way overcooked. The stuff that's built up from separately recorded tracks usually turns out well but I haven't had enough opportunities to record live bands to improve my skills in that area.

I suppose you guys get the irony of this thread? Normally, we start threads to discuss stuff and pricks like this come along and go all sideways over it. This time, the prick started the thread to sling one off and we're going all discussion over it.

_________________The way I see it Barry, this should be a very dynamite show.

If you're listening to distorted guitar music (ie: Zappa) which has a lot of overtones you're going to lose a lot with an mp3. Why do you think Neil Young is at war with mp3? Crazy Horse on mp3 is ludicrous. mp3s are de-balling the music.

@ downer mydnyte Do you find that 192kbps sampling ruins the music? Most people would have a lot of trouble distinguishing between 192kbps and 320kbps and then, the difference between 320kbps and 44.1kHz is apparently statistically insignificant, while theoretically 44.1kHz itself cuts things into bits smaller than anything any human ear can register.

I was doing 320 for a while but I've dropped back to 192. My 57 year old ears certainly can't tell the difference. Whereas I can sometimes tell with the lower resolutions. I believe iTunes should be using higher than 192 to give people the choice.

_________________The way I see it Barry, this should be a very dynamite show.

Jeeze I was lost on this thread, i thought R K was talking about PA or guitar monitors.......wrong as I have an old set of EV sro's that came from the Amboy Dukes 1970, used by the guitar player, now I read more carefully ns10's hmmmmm ok that make more sense http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q= ... 5928,d.aWc

_________________A government Bureau is the closest thing to eternal life on earth that you will ever see

@Arkay Too true about monitors. I fucked up a whole collection of mixes once trying some monitors that seemed to be doing a good job. It's not that obvious. My main problem with recording live music is that I overcook everything. If you've heard any of my music, the live band recordings are all way overcooked. The stuff that's built up from separately recorded tracks usually turns out well but I haven't had enough opportunities to record live bands to improve my skills in that area.

I suppose you guys get the irony of this thread? Normally, we start threads to discuss stuff and pricks like this come along and go all sideways over it. This time, the prick started the thread to sling one off and we're going all discussion over it.

I for one am enjoying this thread. Poly, has anyone ever told you that you look just like your hero Justin Bieber ? Shitbag, prick, what else do you have, besides a horribly disfigured face ? Did you fall out of the ugly tree and hit every branch on the way down?All anyone wants is to get what they paid for in a reasonable time. Problems will happen, but they happen to "The Trust" way to often. And thats the end of the story !

Poly, has anyone ever told you that you look just like your hero Justin Bieber ? Shitbag, prick, what else do you have, besides a horribly disfigured face ? Did you fall out of the ugly tree and hit every branch on the way down?

This just betrays that you're as moronic as Cleon - although more articulate with it. That avatar is an engineered photo to go with the quote from Punky's Whips below it. And even if I did look exactly like that without the photo engineering, so what? It's now cool to judge someone by their face?

OBDULA X wrote:

All anyone wants is to get what they paid for in a reasonable time. Problems will happen, but they happen to "The Trust" way to often. And thats the end of the story !

You on the other hand are being judged by things that you have said on this forum. You believe that your basic point about Dweezil's unkept promise about a download from one concert series justifies you behaving like a shit bag and carrying your sick little vendetta on until doomsday. Your a sad person, whatever your face looks like.

_________________The way I see it Barry, this should be a very dynamite show.

Poly, has anyone ever told you that you look just like your hero Justin Bieber ? Shitbag, prick, what else do you have, besides a horribly disfigured face ? Did you fall out of the ugly tree and hit every branch on the way down?

This just betrays that you're as moronic as Cleon - although more articulate with it. That avatar is an engineered photo to go with the quote from Punky's Whips below it. And even if I did look exactly like that without the photo engineering, so what? It's now cool to judge someone by their face?

OBDULA X wrote:

All anyone wants is to get what they paid for in a reasonable time. Problems will happen, but they happen to "The Trust" way to often. And thats the end of the story !

You on the other hand are being judged by things that you have said on this forum. You believe that your basic point about Dweezil's unkept promise about a download from one concert series justifies you behaving like a shit bag and carrying your sick little vendetta on until doomsday. Your a sad person, whatever your face looks like.

Fuck you need too stop trying too be correct Besides PC your comparing and trying Contrast again,how old @ poly your DC 500 try acting it or STFUObdula just used a GOOD JOKE

Downer... NY's "you only hear 10%" is ridiculous. I play Crazy Horse mp3s alot. Since I'm not sure what angle you are coming at this, I'll leave it at that.

Yes. 10 % seems ridiculous.

My angle is: keep it lossless. However, if 192 sounds good to you-great! You'll have more room on your hard drive than me. 320 sounds pretty good but it depends on what you are listening to. Like I said, distorted guitar suffers considerably from compression. I can certainly tell the dif between Crazy Horse on mp3 and straight from the cd. Play the same part of the same song back to back. 320 and lossless. You'll hear it. But I'm no snob. Whatever sounds good to you.

polydigm wrote:

Do you find that 192kbps sampling ruins the music?

It doesn't ruin it but I hear the difference. I would certainly never pretend, in some lame attempt to appear more sensitive to sound than someone else, to hear the difference.

The headphones are gonna matter, too. Or speakers. Obviously. If you're listening through earbuds or cheap headphones with an 1/8" jack the quality difference obviously becomes less apparent.

When it comes to Zappa music, I don't think it should be released with information missing. With ipods and cheap ear-buds most people wont notice but still......Put it out lossless and those that want to convert to 192 or 256 or 320 have that option.

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