No one, but that doesnt mean that Night Elves have experience fighting them, they just have experience dying to them.

/facepalm

So the orcs have experience being enslaved by them, the draenei have experience running from them, the Forsaken have experience being suckered by them, and the blood elves have experience having the rug pulled out from under them by them.

So the point is not one race in WoW has any business in a fight with the Legion.

I guess the humans had no experience fighting the orcs in the first two wars? Actually, don't answer that...

You so dont like when someone reveals truth about your precious purple nature lovers.

Go actually read War of the Ancients and play through WC 3 again. The night elves were not just getting helplessly slaughtered, they were fighting back. And though both victories were narrow, given the power of the Legion, to sum up their experience as just 'getting killed by the legion' is silly.

I'm hoping Thrall gets captured in 5.3 and in 5.4 we rescue him or we rescure him in 5.3s conclusion. If we rescue him in 5.3 we could then see him leading the horde forces to liberate his city and his people. If we rescue him in 5.4 it could be with him being tortured or some shizzle and him being weakened by some evil magics.

Either way is pretty cool for me. If we get him rescued in 5.3 we could see him debating/interacting with other horde leaders and potentially with Varian (the last time these two met was in in totc, and not long before that we had the battle for undercity and ulduar confrontation) that would be interesting.

I'm hoping Thrall gets captured in 5.3 and in 5.4 we rescue him or we rescure him in 5.3s conclusion. If we rescue him in 5.3 we could then see him leading the horde forces to liberate his city and his people. If we rescue him in 5.4 it could be with him being tortured or some shizzle and him being weakened by some evil magics.

Either way is pretty cool for me. If we get him rescued in 5.3 we could see him debating/interacting with other horde leaders and potentially with Varian (the last time these two met was in in totc, and not long before that we had the battle for undercity and ulduar confrontation) that would be interesting.

Whatever happens to Thrall in org, I think we won't find out until 5.4. He goes to Org at the very end of the Horde questline. I also don't expect to see him leading the Horde forces. Maybe leading some orcs he's turned against Garrosh, but likely not more than that. Before he leaves he even says he trusts Vol'jin to lead the Siege.

Tirion was one of the greatest paladins that the Alliance ever knew, while Thrall was nothing more than a baby at the same period. Your argument is weak. Ofcourse, they are not IDENTICAL, rather are pretty different, with different goals and so on, but their role in the game (at least until the end of Cata) was pretty similar. They had different backgrounds, and the only reason for which the last years Tirion wasn't directly tied with the Alliance as Thrall was with the Horde was just for his sad past of bigoted accusations of a jealous crap paladin, that in the end brought him to the exile. This didn't change the fact that, in his hearth, he remained Alliance.

Then he remained alone in the Plaguelands, accepting of course the help of both Horde and Alliance, because of his new found ideals. And while in Wotlk he returned by that lost hole of the Eastern to become the hero of all, he was just leading a neutral organitazion with a common goal. This doesn't mean at all that he is not affiliated with the Alliance anymore, he just lead a neutral army, but if he choose to stop to a non-Argent camp, he will undoubtely choose the Alliance one (as seen in Howling Fjord) and is very unlikely that he would be fully accepted to walk on Orgrimmar or Undercity as he likes just because his Argent Crusade have orcs and forsaken that choose to side with him. Still, he remain a "neutral character" because while he IS Alliance, he don't share their feelings toward the Horde and prefer to lead the Argent Crusade. And Thrall was the same story. He was a member, than leader, of a neutral organization of shamans, with orcs, tauren, dwarves, draenei ecc. with the commong goal to save the world, while the one of Tirion was to destroy the evil (same result in the end) and while Thrall has been the Horde leader during the past expansions, he was the best person on the Horde that could decide to accept the help of the Alliance and become neutral, because he never hated the Alliance, instead of many of the orcs, the trolls except Vol'jin (that still had much less trust in them than Thrall) the blood elves and the forsaken. Well, nearly all of them, even many tauren have a strong hate now for the Alliance for the events in the Barrens, don't be fooled by Baine and his lovely friendship with the blond shorty.
Thrall just wanted to protect the Horde, not destroy the Alliance, and the only reason for which an Alliance player felt more strange work with Thrall than for a Horde one work with Tirion, was just for in-game material (a lot of people didn't even knew the story of Tirion when they did his quests) but storywise there is no difference at all.

As Tirion, Thrall doesn't share the same hate and distrust for the Alliance as his other Horde brethren have, and until MoP he remained in a similar situation. Still, the fact that Thrall was on Durotar playing with babies doesn't mean that he returned totally Horde-affiliated and in war with the Alliance, that is just his home. And now is just active in the Darkspear rebellion, nothing strange about it.

God, imagine Thrall if he said "i have problems with the world and the elements, the Horde it is not my faction anymore, good job" ? All the Thrall haters jumping in the wagon saying "Look that suck ass, he made all this mess and doesn't even show his face !!11!1!! Thrall is a stupid asshole, i HOPE HE DIEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE !!1!!11!1!" And still people desire his death regardless for stupid reasons. Amazing.
Thrall would be possibile to considered again a full Horde character just if he decide to leave the Earthen Ring for good for not leave a Horde leaderless after the dethroning of Garrosh.
The only real difference beetwen Thrall and Tirion in their role is that Tirion was a...moderate presence, in Cata there was definetly too much Thrall, and things like the FR chain and the wedding...well, i didn't like them at all, just for say it in a good manner.

1.) The Alliance of Lordaeron =/= the Alliance. But even if you're going to pretend they are, he was exiled and stripped of his rank in the Alliance and spent 10+ years as a neutral character. Comparatively Thrall was gone for 1 expansion. And he was kind of leading the Horde. Tirion was just a Paladin, admittedly a strong Paladin, but just a Paladin nonetheless. Thrall was the Warchief. "In his heart, he remained Alliance." This sentence means absolutely nothing. If this was true, he wouldn't have been a neutral character in Vanilla. He would have been trying to help the Alliance even though he had been exiled/disliked, similar to what Illidan did during Warcraft 3 and Frozen Throne.

2.) You even admit he was leading a neutral organization. So how can you then argue he wasn't Alliance-affiliated? Hell, the entire point of his role in Wrath was that he wasn't on either side of the Alliance and Horde cold war. You act as if his one appearance at Valgarde Keep means that he was in the Alliance. No, it doesn't. It just was a logical way to get to Northrend. A cloaked human in a base of Humans makes more sense than the only other power in Howling Fjord, the Forsaken. He's not Alliance, and nothing you've said proves he is. Mainly because he isn't. Look at his role in Cataclysm. He doesn't get involved on either side, and only comments on Sylvanas because she begins acting like the Lich King was. You know, the villain he spent all his time in Northrend defeating.

Comparing Thrall to Tirion is kind of ridiculous, but I would say you did an admiral attempt at spinning the story to try and say they are the same. Thrall led the Earthen Ring for 1 expansion, and then immediately throws himself back in the Horde's politics. The whole reason people don't have a problem with Tirion is for the fact that he was neutral for so long. He was a Human, not a member of the Alliance. As for Thrall, Alliance players just spent 3 expansions fighting against the Horde with Thrall as their leader. And guess what? In MoP, he's back in the Horde. Pretending Thrall is anything but a Horde member is a joke.

If Thrall and Tirion were the same, Tirion would have been a member of Alliance from Vanilla-Wrath, led the Crusade, and then rejoined the Alliance after Wrath. That would be the only way they would be the same. The fact that he is in Durotar doesn't mean he was back in the Horde? Wow, really? I also like how you just totally hand-wave-away the fact that he involves himself directly in the Horde's politics in 5.1, and then actively joins the Horde rebellion in 5.3. No, nothing Horde about that. Totally neutral!

I have no idea wtf your last paragraph is trying to say, so I'm ignoring it. There are significant differences between Tirion and Thrall.

1.) Tirion never led the Alliance vs Thrall leading the Horde for 3 expansions.
2.) Tirion was completely uninvolved with his former faction for over 15 years. Thrall was for about 1. And then, again he involves himself back in Horde politics and seemingly joins what will become the Horde again, after Garrosh is dethroned in 5.3.

No one, but that doesnt mean that Night Elves have experience fighting them, they just have experience dying to them.

hey let's talk about how strong the undead are. Oh right, they're not, they can't even hold off some worgen without the Orcs doing all the heavy lifting.

I mean really, curb your nonsense. your hatred is not just bordering stupid, it's going against the written story in such obvious full retard it's not even funny. But then you think the undead are strong and unstoppable, when its been shown time and again they are weak at their best, and easily enslaved by any necromancer with a hint of talent.

When it comes to displayed power in the WoW story line the Night Elves are approaching Everest summit while your precious undead are rotting in a swamp below sea level. get over it you delusional fanboi

Whatever happens to Thrall in org, I think we won't find out until 5.4. He goes to Org at the very end of the Horde questline. I also don't expect to see him leading the Horde forces. Maybe leading some orcs he's turned against Garrosh, but likely not more than that. Before he leaves he even says he trusts Vol'jin to lead the Siege.

is there any point in this current story line that dsnt make Orcs feel like shit?

We have faced trials and danger, threats to our world and our way of life. And yet, we persevere. We are the Horde. We will not let anything break our spirits!"

Sorry, but I don't think the solution to "too much Thrall in Cata" is "MORE Thrall in MoP." For some of us, it wasn't the cheesiness of the development that was annoying, it was how the entire world started to revolve around one character. Thrall was overexposed. He needed to go away in MoP so that other characters could have a turn. And now they have, even if those turns haven't been exactly consistent - I'm looking at you, Varian "Peacenik" Wrynn and you Tyrande "Herp derp what's strategery?" Whisperwind! And someimes I swear Anduin is just Thrall in disguise ... hmm ... has anyone ever seen them in a room together?

Thrall has been the fulcrum for world events for far too long - even MoP events lead back to him because it was his decision to hand Garrosh the reins. He either needs to die, or stay far far away in Nagrand and raise his kid.

Don't understand all this crap about Thrall. He was a hugely important character in Warcraft III (despite the fact he spent the whole campaign fleeing across the ocean) and he invented the modern Horde so of course he's a major part of the faction lore. He was also a powerful Shaman which is something we saw little of in Warcraft III and none of in WoW so him embracing that path made a lot of sense.

And he had a big role to play in the fight against Deathwing because he was the leader of the major Shaman organisation in Azeroth at the time. Same way Tirion Fordring was such a crucial character in Wrath because he led the major Paladin organisation. Did people cry about Alliance favouritism because he was human? Actually don't answer that question, they probably did. Sigh.

---------- Post added 2013-05-08 at 04:43 AM ----------

Originally Posted by KrazyK923

I have no idea wtf your last paragraph is trying to say, so I'm ignoring it. There are significant differences between Tirion and Thrall.

1.) Tirion never led the Alliance vs Thrall leading the Horde for 3 expansions.
2.) Tirion was completely uninvolved with his former faction for over 15 years. Thrall was for about 1. And then, again he involves himself back in Horde politics and seemingly joins what will become the Horde again, after Garrosh is dethroned in 5.3.

Whether or not you accept that is on you.

My response to that would be: so fucking what?

---------- Post added 2013-05-08 at 04:46 AM ----------

Originally Posted by Arrashi

Im not gonna lie, one thrall-centered chain quest per century is more than enough. Let other characters shine for once.

We just spent most of the last patch with Lorthemar Theron (the answer to the question: "who?"). And before that it was Vol'jin and a bit of Baine. It's time we learned more about what Thrall is up to.

I mean I'd like to get more interaction with Baine, Sylvanas and (god forbid) Gallywix to see what every faction leader is doing and where they stand, but WoW has a pretty limited amount of lore and RP bandwidth.

Don't understand all this crap about Thrall. He was a hugely important character in Warcraft III (despite the fact he spent the whole campaign fleeing across the ocean) and he invented the modern Horde so of course he's a major part of the faction lore. He was also a powerful Shaman which is something we saw little of in Warcraft III and none of in WoW so him embracing that path made a lot of sense.

And he had a big role to play in the fight against Deathwing because he was the leader of the major Shaman organisation in Azeroth at the time. Same way Tirion Fordring was such a crucial character in Wrath because he led the major Paladin organisation. Did people cry about Alliance favouritism because he was human? Actually don't answer that question, they probably did. Sigh.

---------- Post added 2013-05-08 at 04:43 AM ----------

My response to that would be: so fucking what?

The difference is one of them was a clearly established neutral character who never did anything as part of the Alliance in any of the games, it was all backstory. Wasn't shoehorned into any scenes, stories or trailers he didn't need to be in.

The other character in question is the FOUNDER of the Horde, was its leader right up until he went 'neutral' to save the world, and then promptly went back to his home faction when **** hit the fan with Garrosh. Not only that, but they kept throwing stuff to him thta would have been much better served elsewhere. (Staghelm, Bennedictus, the 4.2 trailer, derailing the restoration of Nodrassil plot...)

If you don't see the difference between those two scenarios, not much I can do for you.

I mean I'd like to get more interaction with Baine, Sylvanas and (god forbid) Gallywix to see what every faction leader is doing and where they stand, but WoW has a pretty limited amount of lore and RP bandwidth.

Agreed
There is not enough content to go around for all characters.
And each new x-pac will just make it worse, with new characters major and small, means a bigger cast that Blizzard has to find time for

---------- Post added 2013-05-08 at 04:56 AM ----------

Originally Posted by Florena

I'm not really seeing any reason to assume the old Alliance doesn't = the current alliance, especially with no lore showing the creation of said 'new' alliance.

Guess people seem to see it as new because its under new leadership
Where in Warcraft 2-3, Lorderon was the senior partner in all of it, that mantle passed to Stormwind after the Scourge invasions

We have faced trials and danger, threats to our world and our way of life. And yet, we persevere. We are the Horde. We will not let anything break our spirits!"

Agreed
There is not enough content to go around for all characters.
And each new x-pac will just make it worse, with new characters major and small, means a bigger cast that Blizzard has to find time for

Yeah. At least Baine is getting a little love in 5.3. But there's just not time to keep every character up to date.

1.) The Alliance of Lordaeron =/= the Alliance. But even if you're going to pretend they are, he was exiled and stripped of his rank in the Alliance and spent 10+ years as a neutral character. Comparatively Thrall was gone for 1 expansion. And he was kind of leading the Horde. Tirion was just a Paladin, admittedly a strong Paladin, but just a Paladin nonetheless. Thrall was the Warchief. "In his heart, he remained Alliance." This sentence means absolutely nothing. If this was true, he wouldn't have been a neutral character in Vanilla. He would have been trying to help the Alliance even though he had been exiled/disliked, similar to what Illidan did during Warcraft 3 and Frozen Throne.

2.) You even admit he was leading a neutral organization. So how can you then argue he wasn't Alliance-affiliated? Hell, the entire point of his role in Wrath was that he wasn't on either side of the Alliance and Horde cold war. You act as if his one appearance at Valgarde Keep means that he was in the Alliance. No, it doesn't. It just was a logical way to get to Northrend. A cloaked human in a base of Humans makes more sense than the only other power in Howling Fjord, the Forsaken. He's not Alliance, and nothing you've said proves he is. Mainly because he isn't. Look at his role in Cataclysm. He doesn't get involved on either side, and only comments on Sylvanas because she begins acting like the Lich King was. You know, the villain he spent all his time in Northrend defeating.

You don't understand how so little convincing you are.

1.) Wrong. I agree that the Alliance is different now, but seriously, not another planet, even if you're going to pretend it. With the destruction of Lordaeron and much of his people becoming Forsaken, the Alliance represents his only serious tie with the past, and most of what remains of the human kind is there, and ofcourse all the few living remained of Lordearon are Alliance. This Alliance. And this Alliance, as the other, have Stormwind, Gilneas, Dalaran until Wotlk and again in MoP, Kul Tiras, the damn dwarves and the damn gnomes. Only differences ? Night elves, draenei, Lordearon missing. Of course he don't have ties with them, but he have with all the rest. And the whole point "no, he wasn't Alliance anymore because he was neutral" is bad, he became effectively neutral oriented in Wotlk, but in Vanilla he simply accepted the help of anyone that could gain his trust, and he didn't make distinction of races, he was "neutral" in this sense, we don't know not even dare to give us any opinion about the Alliance vs Horde war until now. He judge people by actions, not races, this is the whole point and he would be more than glad to defend an Alliance civil camp or town, not provoked at all, by Horde attackers, but that is a thing: active partecipation in a war is another. But his more urgent concern at the time, alone and isolated in the Eastern, was to save his son from the Scarlet Crusade, and was seriously the only thing he could have do, and still not without our help, he was even a little "depressed" and hopeless when we encountered him. Just a thing: Tirion was not the king, but still the governor of a good chunck of Lordearon;

2.) He stepped more clearly in the neutrality in Wotlk, still the fact that he doesn't partecipate in that cold war because of his defined ideals doesn't make this one bondless with a faction, your entire reasoning is that he's not tied with the Alliance because he doesn't make war with the Horde. The human with humans for the sake of the masquerade is the only arguable point, but regardless there wasn't any reason for which Tirion should go in the Forsaken camp instead, until there was any kind of reason for which was very necessary do it. In all the other cases, necessary or not, he would have stick in the Alliance camp with humans, dwarves, and any recent ally of them, and defend it from the Forsaken, if for any retarded reason in the world they would have attacked it. If the Valiance Keep, for any similar retarded reason or no reason at all, attacked the Forsaken, Tirion would have been completely dissapointed, tried to say that was a bullshit, and if they persisted, simply ignore them, or use his loyal Crusaders to intervene and stop the conflict.
The role in Cataclysm doesn't mean nothing. He brought the Argent Crusade in what was his home before being kicked in the wild by Uther, Arthas and company, but the conflict in Andorhal wasn't one in which he could partecipate. That was a completely open war HvA, both factions tried to invade Andhoral and get rid of the Scourge, and while there were Lordearon farmers with the Alliance, they were anyway part of a war for conquering the city, and Tirion couldn't have any right to decide which one was the "good" part, since all the Forsaken, while unliving, are natives of Lordearon too. As you said, his only concern was Sylvanas and her dangerous similarities with the Lich King.

Comparing Thrall to Tirion is kind of ridiculous, but I would say you did an admiral attempt at spinning the story to try and say they are the same. Thrall led the Earthen Ring for 1 expansion, and then immediately throws himself back in the Horde's politics. The whole reason people don't have a problem with Tirion is for the fact that he was neutral for so long. He was a Human, not a member of the Alliance. As for Thrall, Alliance players just spent 3 expansions fighting against the Horde with Thrall as their leader. And guess what? In MoP, he's back in the Horde. Pretending Thrall is anything but a Horde member is a joke.

If Thrall and Tirion were the same, Tirion would have been a member of Alliance from Vanilla-Wrath, led the Crusade, and then rejoined the Alliance after Wrath. That would be the only way they would be the same. The fact that he is in Durotar doesn't mean he was back in the Horde? Wow, really? I also like how you just totally hand-wave-away the fact that he involves himself directly in the Horde's politics in 5.1, and then actively joins the Horde rebellion in 5.3. No, nothing Horde about that. Totally neutral!

Well, while the stuff before had some reasoning, this is the lowest point. All a bunch of reasoning builded on a wrong thougth. Yeah, despite all his background and story and any tie with the Alliance, Tirion is a neutral character now, which simply means that will lead the Argent Crusade from his home, fighting any form of evil that could manifest and never partecipate in the Alliance vs Horde, until, well, the Horde will do something very out of place, like mass murdering and siege cities to destruction. And now, all that you bring to the table for say that Thrall is instead a completely rejoined Horde character is because he's on Durotar, helping the rebellion, and be "active" in "Horde politics" ? Seriously, are you kidding me? Do you have any serious grasp of the word "neutrality" or just use it as better is convinient? Like gcsmith that say "Thrall break the neutrality because said Jaina to not mass murder his people". /facepalm

Stay on Durotar, his very home, doing nothing but staying with his family is neutral-breaking? He was doing his own businesses and then became "involved in Horde politics" (lol) in 5.1 because Vol'jin had his Hearthstone, gave it to the player, and use it, then going to Thrall saying that Vol'jin fears the worst for his people and asks Thrall's help. But hey, the most intelligent answer of Thrall should be "sorry man, i'm neutral(?) who cares of the Darkspear, yeah a friend asked me a favor, but seriously man, i'm neutral" and when he discovered something unthinkable like that the Kor'kron, Garrosh himself, were bullying the trolls, was resonable to put a little away his "family businesses" and be sure that the Darkspear weren't further persecuted until Vol'jin was absent.
Helping the Darkspear Rebellion is neutral-breaking ? Against who ? He's not neutral in the Vol'jin vs Garrosh conflict, but in the Horde vs Alliance one, i think is something anyone until not blinded biased can understand. The Alliance doesn't have any kind of tyrant destroying it from within, and if the Alliance had some corrupted and evil human king murdering his people or allies, Tirion would surely intervene for the rigths of the ones submitted, and i don't think any Horde would be that offended or in open HATE and WAR with him because of this, because ended the crisis, he will return to Hearthglen, being neutral as ever been. Garrosh for his pride is destroying the Horde and leading the orcs in the darkest place possible, and the Horde races are rebelling against him, the Alliance want to strike to him aswell for their well known reasons, and, in all this mess, Thrall should just watch and say something stupid like "I'm neutral"?
And please don't say something like "he help the Horde against Garrosh, not the Alliance"...because of course is the faction in the most precarious and extremely dangerous state, for them is a civil war in which they spill each other blood, even the Alliance itself help them for ensure their own victory.

As i said, Thrall will be again a full Horde character if he decide to retake the mantle of the Warchief, be the boss, and NOW be again in war with the Alliance. But still, this is all speculation, a lot of guys want Thrall again as Warchief, but nothing hint for sure that he will be.

I have no idea wtf your last paragraph is trying to say, so I'm ignoring it. There are significant differences between Tirion and Thrall.

1.) Tirion never led the Alliance vs Thrall leading the Horde for 3 expansions.
2.) Tirion was completely uninvolved with his former faction for over 15 years. Thrall was for about 1. And then, again he involves himself back in Horde politics and seemingly joins what will become the Horde again, after Garrosh is dethroned in 5.3.

So lovable. The paragraph simply said that Tirion had much less appereances in Wotlk, Thrall had a lot more, too many in my opinion, and the ones that shouldn't be there, in my opinion, were the wedding with Aggra, that couldn't be looked at, and the chain just before it, that was better relegated in some novel.

Anyway, despite all of this, you continue to trail behind an argument that i never mentioned, like about Tirion and Thrall be "similar" characters. They are not, they are different with different backgrounds and different goals, as i said in my first statement that you clearly haven't read, but their role in game, UNTIL MoP, was very similar. Now is different only because the story brought as main theme an Horde crisis that he cannot just ignore it like if is not happening, still doesn't mean at all that now Thrall is a full Horde character. A Horde-tied one, of course, but not a fully sided as you say, he doesn't fight the Alliance, he doesn't side with them for this, he side with the rebellion because Garrosh is doing a mess, and have a very personal responsibility about it, reason for which, in the end, he left the leadership of the ribellion to Vol'jin, for going to Orgrimmar alone. If you can't understand it even now, i give up.

It's useless using the math for resolve the argument, the number of the expansions as Horde leader, of the years of Tirion exile and so on....different characters are different, and while the players felt strange with Thrall just stepping in the neutrality, he followed a path similar to the one of Tirion, and during Cata has been a neutral character, totally. Sure, that started not intended, he was just going to resolving a mess in the Maelstrom and then ready to return to the Horde, but the character evolved to the neutrality, the novel Twilight of the Aspects suggests it even more, when he is distrustfully approched by the night elves, but then after some time they change their mind.
And for this i always saw him returning to be Warchief something out of place, i would love it, but doesn't make sense with the developement to me, going from a Warchief that tried to achive peace, like Jaina, became even neutral for an expansion and then again Horde leader and in war with all the Alliance races. Nah.