Smoke crack much?? The question at hand was whether or not atheists proselytize.

If your attitude is "who cares", why do you keep flapping your lips, claiming that atheists DO NOT do such?

Someone with a "who cares" attitude wouldn't be chirping about how they wish atheists would proselytize to counter the so-called "mind virus" of Christianity.

Make up your mind here.

you say they do and I guess if you can find one atheist somewhere on the planet promoting his beliefs then you feel justified.

A few posters on a bus or an ad here and there (and the one you mentioned like a girl in a Santa suit sound more like a joke) is not prostelytizing by any meaningful measure of the definition. A group of people meeting at a humanist center is not prostelytizing unless they leave that building and start coming to your door to push their belief and/or try to CONVERT you to their beliefs. You just seem to want to believe it in spite of the glaring lack of evidence so go right ahead. It makes no difference to me.

Personally, I wish they would do it more or at least to a level where I could actually see it.

I haven't talked to her about it yet, because i just met her. My son told me about her beliefs. I can only imagine what the parents must feel like.

But, check this out. My son's best "girl" friend got in an car accident last week. She was backing out of her drive way and was hit by a car going 65 mph in a residential neighborhood. I guess her face/head hit the window and she has a scar from her forehead down to her cheek. The parents have seen this as a sign from God that she needs to change her life. (She'll be 18 in 30 days) So they comprised a list of people she's no longer allowed to be friends with and they read her diary. Now, just so you know, these are a pretty good group of kids. They are not pots heads, they don't get in trouble with the law, etc.

This is how sometimes, people can be somewhat ignorant and do the wrong thing with good intentions because of religion.

Anti Pele' Groups? HAHAHA Yeah that would cause some serious eruptions! However it's not whether there is a measurable number of people who believe in Santa Claus, it's the that issue is similar in terms of how an atheist perceives others when it comes to beliefs. I think if you met someone who believed in Santa claus and center their life around Saint Nick and his teachings and activities each year you may feel quite compelled to say something when they started witnessing to you or talked about Rudy and the path of light.

Sorry to hear about your son's girlfriend. Hope she's O.K. Sounds like the parents overreacted, but you never know what's going on behind closed doors.

I've never met anyone who centered their life around Santa Claus and probably never will. That's not realistic.

Given that at least some atheists proselytize, my next question is what is their message? With religious groups, the message is about hope, love, happiness, etc. What is the message of the proselytizing atheist?

Given that at least some atheists proselytize, my next question is what is their message? With religious groups, the message is about hope, love, happiness, etc. What is the message of the proselytizing atheist?

the hope and love part only comes after you are first taught that you're a sinner and you're doomed to an eternity in hell

after that, the next step is that you only have one correct choice and you'd better not fuck it up

Given that at least some atheists proselytize, my next question is what is their message? With religious groups, the message is about hope, love, happiness, etc. What is the message of the proselytizing atheist?

the simple solution to your first question would be to find an example of an atheist proselytizing and then you can judge for yourself what their message is.

Maybe McWay can tell you the right bus schedule so you can see the poster for yourself

the simple solution to your first question would be to find an example of an atheist proselytizing and then you can judge for yourself what their message is.

Maybe McWay can tell you the right bus schedule so you can see the poster for yourself

No need!! In fact, on the link to the ABC article about the Palo Alto humanist center, there's another link to a so-called "Blasphemy Challenge". Now why would atheists be asking people to take this "challenge" and reject their faith?

Waaaaa! All McWay does is punch people right in the mouth when they start making bad arguments, etc.

I'd prefer to punch their arguments. No need to attack the messenger; the message will suffice. Of course, L Dawg rarely comes with any such arguments, just his usual one-liner gripes with little substance or point to them.

No need!! In fact, on the link to the ABC article about the Palo Alto humanist center, there's another link to a so-called "Blasphemy Challenge". Now why would atheists be asking people to take this "challenge" and reject their faith?

I'd prefer to punch their arguments. No need to attack the messenger; the message will suffice. Of course, L Dawg rarely comes with any such arguments, just his usual one-liner gripes with little substance or point to them.

I haven't seen the link to the Blasphemy Challenge.

I still can't figure out why you find the people in Palo Alto so threatening. Why do you care if they meet or what they teach their children?

I guess this answers my question about the atheist message. Their proselytizing is much more involved than I thought:

About American Atheists

Since 1963, AMERICAN ATHEISTS has been the premier organization laboring for the civil liberties of Atheists, and the total, absolute separation of government and religion. It was born out of a court case begun in 1959 by the Murray family which challenged prayer recitation in the public schools. That case – Murray v. Curlett – was a landmark in American jurisprudence on behalf of our First Amendment rights. It began:

"Your petitioners are Atheists, and they define their lifestyle as follows. An Atheist loves himself and his fellow man instead of a god. An Atheist accepts that heaven is something for which we should work now – here on earth – for all men together to enjoy. An Atheist accepts that he can get no help through prayer, but that he must find in himself the inner conviction and strength to meet life, to grapple with it, to subdue it and to enjoy it. An Atheist accepts that only in a knowledge of himself and a knowledge of his fellow man can he find the understanding that will help lead to a life of fulfillment."

Now in its fourth decade, American Atheists is dedicated to working for the civil rights of Atheists, promoting separation of state and church, and providing information about Atheism.

The organization was founded by Madalyn Murray O'Hair, the noted Atheist activist, as the result of her successful battle against mandatory school prayer and bible recitation. Over the last thirty years, American Atheists has:

* Fought fervently to defend the Separation of Religion from GovernmentAppeared in all formes of media to defend our positions and criticisms of religion and mythology * Held Atheist conventions and gatherings throughout the United States, including "Atheist Pride" Marches in state capitals. * Demonstrated and picketed throughout the country on behalf of Atheist rights and state church separation. The organization has marched to defend the rights of intellectuals such as writer Salman Rushdie, protested the use of government funds to support public religious displays, and conducted the first picket of a Roman Catholic pope in history. * Published over 120 books about Atheism, criticism of religion, and state/church separation.Published newsletters, magazines and member-alerts. * Built a broad outreach in cyberspace with mailing lists, an ftp and web site, FaxNet and other projects to keep members and the general public informed. * Fostered a growing network of Representatives throughout the nation who monitor important First Amendment issues, and work on behalf of the organization in their areas. * Grown a network of volunteers who perform a variety of important tasks in their community, from placing American Atheist books in libraries to writing letters and publicizing the Atheist perspective. * Preserved Atheist literature and history in the nation's largest archive of its kind. The library's holdings span over three hundred years of Atheist thought.Provided speakers for colleges, universities, clubs and the news media. * Granted college scholarships to young atheist activists

I still can't figure out why you find the people in Palo Alto so threatening. Why do you care if they meet or what they teach their children?

What is it about them that makes you so scared?

I don't find them threatening. I find it comical that some of the very people criticizing religion and people of faith are basically mimicking those same people with their own "religion", complete with "doctrine" and "churches", as it were.

As far as this discussion goes, your arguments and questions continue to get more inconsistent and silly by the hour.

You keep flip-flopping. One minute, you don't see an example of atheist proselytizing; then, when one (or several) get pointed out to you, here you come with your feeble "So what? Why are you scared?" routine.

That is made even sillier by the fact that your takes are two-faced on this issue. If you truly have a "who cares?" attitude with regards to people of faith (or lack thereof), you wouldn't be wishing that atheists (or someone) woud proselytize to counter what you coined to be the "mind-virus" of Christianity.

Tenets? No problem! In fact, some are listed on another thread. But, I'll bring up a couple right here:

1) Heaven is here on Earth

Your petitioners are Atheists, and they define their lifestyle as follows. An Atheist loves himself and his fellow man instead of a god. An Atheist accepts that heaven is something for which we should work now – here on earth – for all men together to enjoy. An Atheist accepts that he can get no help through prayer, but that he must find in himself the inner conviction and strength to meet life, to grapple with it, to subdue it and to enjoy it. An Atheist accepts that only in a knowledge of himself and a knowledge of his fellow man can he find the understanding that will help lead to a life of fulfillment." - American Atheists.

This group was founded by Madalyn Murray O'Hair, who loved her fellow man so much that she dismissed her son, William Murray, when he became a Christian (and later a minister), calling such a "postnatal abortion".

" I believe we make our own heaven right here, or hell, and I said, I'm going to come back in an afterlife as a leaf on a tree." Beverly Crowell, congregant, Palo Alto Humanist Community.

BTW, how does someone who doesn't believe in God somehow think she's coming back in an "afterlife" as a leaf (or anything else)?

2) Man is his own salvation.

(From the aforementioned American Atheist blurb): "An Atheist accepts that only in a knowledge of himself and a knowledge of his fellow man can he find the understanding that will help lead to a life of fulfillment"

Those sound like "guidelines" to me. As for a "book", these atheists groups tend to go ga-ga over "The Origin of Species". In fact, it appears the man-worshippers have their own "messiah": Charles Darwin. If I remember correctly, a number of atheists got all warm and fuzzy about Darwin's 200th birthday.

there's another link to a so-called "Blasphemy Challenge". Now why would atheists be asking people to take this "challenge" and reject their faith?

thanks man - I found the link.

Interesting Stuff - the guy who is behind it is a former born again christian.

If you read the link it's not actually aimed at converting others to their cause but instead encouring other who already agree with them to speak out publicly about their own beliefs. There is no actual proselytizing going on. No one is trying to convert anyone.

Unfortunately we don't know exactly who he is because his last name is kept confidential because he's received so many death threat from other compassionate christians. Funny how it's always the religious ones who feel the need to respond with violence. You'd think people who were filled with the holy spirit would have a little more compassionan and be more peaceful. Funny huh?

Interesting Stuff - the guy who is behind it is a former born again christian.

If you read the link it's not actually aimed at converting others to their cause but instead encouring other who already agree with them to speak out publicly about their own beliefs. There is no actual proselytizing going on. No one is trying to convert anyone.

A "Blasphemy Challenge" is anything but that, to folks who already don't believe in God.

Unfortunately we don't know exactly who he is because his last name is kept confidential because he's received so many death threat from other compassionate christians. Funny how it's always the religious ones who feel the need to respond with violence. You'd think people who were filled with the holy spirit would have a little more compassionan and be more peaceful. Funny huh?

I don't find them threatening. I find it comical that some of the very people criticizing religion and people of faith are basically mimicking those same people with their own "religion", complete with "doctrine" and "churches", as it were.

As far as this discussion goes, your arguments and questions continue to get more inconsistent and silly by the hour.

You keep flip-flopping. One minute, you don't see an example of atheist proselytizing; then, when one (or several) get pointed out to you, here you come with your feeble "So what? Why are you scared?" routine.

That is made even sillier by the fact that your takes are two-faced on this issue. If you truly have a "who cares?" attitude with regards to people of faith (or lack thereof), you wouldn't be wishing that atheists (or someone) woud proselytize to counter what you coined to be the "mind-virus" of Christianity.

I haven't seen any real examples of proselytizing.

billboards on a bus aren't an example

people meeting in private aren't an example

Even that Blaspemy Challenge isn't an example.

Proseltizing is going around, univited and trying to convince people to adopt your beliefs.

Do you think this sign on a bus is the same as going door to door trying to convince people that they are sinners and they are going to hell unless they adopt your beliefs.

Proseltizing is going around, univited and trying to convince people to adopt your beliefs.

Do you think this sign on a bus is the same as going door to door trying to convince people that they are sinners and they are going to hell unless they adopt your beliefs.

Once again, you're wading in that deep river of De-Nial.

You don't pay hundreds of thousands of dollars for ad space (be it on a bus or anywhere else), just for the heck of it. You do to to DRAW PEOPLE, in order to hear what you have to say and hopefully buy into it. Nobody invited them to slap billboards on buses or make "logic and reason" displays on state capitols during Christmas time. But, they did so.

You are fixated on a type of proselytizing (the old-school form of going door-to-door), making the rather foolish claim that atheists are not doing ANY proselytizing, simply because they aren't using that particular method.

And, with your paper-thin assertion cut to ribbons, you now claim that those aren't "real" forms of proselytizing.

* Fought fervently to defend the Separation of Religion from GovernmentAppeared in all formes of media to defend our positions and criticisms of religion and mythology * Held Atheist conventions and gatherings throughout the United States, including "Atheist Pride" Marches in state capitals. * Demonstrated and picketed throughout the country on behalf of Atheist rights and state church separation. The organization has marched to defend the rights of intellectuals such as writer Salman Rushdie, protested the use of government funds to support public religious displays, and conducted the first picket of a Roman Catholic pope in history. * Published over 120 books about Atheism, criticism of religion, and state/church separation.Published newsletters, magazines and member-alerts. * Built a broad outreach in cyberspace with mailing lists, an ftp and web site, FaxNet and other projects to keep members and the general public informed. * Fostered a growing network of Representatives throughout the nation who monitor important First Amendment issues, and work on behalf of the organization in their areas. * Grown a network of volunteers who perform a variety of important tasks in their community, from placing American Atheist books in libraries to writing letters and publicizing the Atheist perspective. * Preserved Atheist literature and history in the nation's largest archive of its kind. The library's holdings span over three hundred years of Atheist thought.Provided speakers for colleges, universities, clubs and the news media. * Granted college scholarships to young atheist activists

You don't pay hundreds of thousands of dollars for ad space (be it on a bus or anywhere else), just for the heck of it. You do to to DRAW PEOPLE, in order to hear what you have to say and hopefully buy into it. Nobody invited them to slap billboards on buses or make "logic and reason" displays on state capitols during Christmas time. But, they did so.

You are fixated on a type of proselytizing (the old-school form of going door-to-door), making the rather foolish claim that atheists are not doing ANY proselytizing, simply because they aren't using that particular method.

And, with your paper-thin assertion cut to ribbons, you now claim that those aren't "real" forms of proselytizing.

If you call that poster proselytizing then that's your perogative.

That poster wouldn't motivate anyone to do anything.

If they really want to motivate people they need to scare them and then offer them a solution to their new found fear.

That's how the christians do it.

BTW - You never answered my question.

Don't you agree it's fucked up for Christians to send death threats to that guy from the Blasphemy challange?

"bad argument, are you saying that two things banged together, some goo formed a human crawled out?"

ya mcway is a real genius.

I never claimed to be a genius. Fortunately, I don’t need to be one to take your pathetic takes to the woodshed.

Your oft-touted claims of atheism being a mere lack of belief have been thoroughly dissected.

You claimed that there were no tenets; I’ve listed at least two of them; as has Beach Bum.

You claim there was no “book”; last time I checked, “Origin of Species” was one of the (for lack of a better term) sacred documents of the self-proclaimed free-thinker.

And, as Tony has REPEATEDLY pointed out to you on the other thread, you have made no distinction between how atheists like you push YOUR ideals and dogmas onto others and how you claim Christians do so with theirs.

As I've said elsewhere, atheism in practice goes WAY BEYOND the simple lack of belief in a deity. And, based on the statements and actions of atheists (past and present), I've maintained that atheism, for all practical purposes, is every bit a religion as Christianity. Or, simply stated, atheism is effectively man worshipping HIMSELF.

* Fought fervently to defend the Separation of Religion from GovernmentAppeared in all formes of media to defend our positions and criticisms of religion and mythology * Held Atheist conventions and gatherings throughout the United States, including "Atheist Pride" Marches in state capitals. * Demonstrated and picketed throughout the country on behalf of Atheist rights and state church separation. The organization has marched to defend the rights of intellectuals such as writer Salman Rushdie, protested the use of government funds to support public religious displays, and conducted the first picket of a Roman Catholic pope in history. * Published over 120 books about Atheism, criticism of religion, and state/church separation.Published newsletters, magazines and member-alerts. * Built a broad outreach in cyberspace with mailing lists, an ftp and web site, FaxNet and other projects to keep members and the general public informed. * Fostered a growing network of Representatives throughout the nation who monitor important First Amendment issues, and work on behalf of the organization in their areas. * Grown a network of volunteers who perform a variety of important tasks in their community, from placing American Atheist books in libraries to writing letters and publicizing the Atheist perspective. * Preserved Atheist literature and history in the nation's largest archive of its kind. The library's holdings span over three hundred years of Atheist thought.Provided speakers for colleges, universities, clubs and the news media. * Granted college scholarships to young atheist activists