Heard this discussion about a couple who live together who attend a church. The woman is part of the praise band and he boyfriend is involved in the church in some manner as well.

This was on a Christian TV question and answer program and went like this. Audience emailed a question regarding a woman, unmarried, living a long time with her boy friend if she should be permitted on the worship team.

The respondents all said no, she should not be allowed. The couple, per email were planning to get married anyways in the church in the future. The question was posed that before they do, she should step down from the worship team because God does not condone such shacking up...

It is the hostile tone of the experts that shocked me. The tone of the experts was quite religious in tone. Not one asked if the women in question was already considered married by State Common Law laws due to the duration of living together. They went into, well a... well no other way to put it nicely, a sanctimonious answer without considering any facts. It appears that they concur that in a situation like this a person is unfit for service for the Lord period.

However, none mentioned the Woman at the Well Jesus spoke too who had 5 previous husbands, and the man she lived with now (shacked up with) was not her husband. Let's not forget that she went back to her home town and was God's instrument he used to bring to whole town to Jesus,

So, in you opinion - God have an ax to grind against man and woman couple shacked together from being used for his purposes?

Sometimes, I think anyway, a couple can be more married in the eyes of God without being married legally and vice versa.

I have noidea what Scripture says about marraige and the like, not really, but in my heart I feel God wouldnt care about a union recognised by man but would about one between two people who follow Him.
They plan to marry, they may not be having sex, they may be totally commited to each other and God but because they arent married they shouldnt be on the team?

Faith is a knowledge within the heart, beyond the reach of proof - Kahlil Gibran

Storyteller wrote:Sometimes, I think anyway, a couple can be more married in the eyes of God without being married legally and vice versa.

I have noidea what Scripture says about marraige and the like, not really, but in my heart I feel God wouldnt care about a union recognised by man but would about one between two people who follow Him.
They plan to marry, they may not be having sex, they may be totally commited to each other and God but because they arent married they shouldnt be on the team?

That was my reaction too in light of the Woman at the Well and Mary Magdalene...
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God's Word teaches that a man and a woman are to be joined in marriage and Then live together. The assumption Is that when a man / woman move in together , there will be sexual intimacy involved.

Churches / Pastors / Should be teaching Biblical morality, ethics. They should be encouraged to attend church, yes. Have a place in leadership , No.

Since the couple in question is planning to be married in the future == Why not be married Now? Why wait for some future time?

I would Also suggest that -- since we Are talking about a church setting and she has an important part as a member of a Praise and Worship team. She probably Should have taken the step to voluntarily stepped down until they would be married. Or should not have taken part in that way in the 1st place.

The comment was made about being fit for doing the Lord's Work -- Just because a man and woman are choosing to live together without getting married?!. Isn't part of 'doing the Lord's Work' -- living in a way that is glorifying to God?

And, it Is true that single men and women who are planning to be married CAN share a two bedroom apartment with the understanding that they sleep in separate bedrooms. But sharing a bedroom - no.

I can't respond to the tone as I didn't see the original piece, but the substance seems correct. You shouldn't be in a position of leadership in the church if you are living in open sin. That goes for anybody and everybody, and living in open sin does not only refer to sexual sin. But, in this case, it's rather clear cut, and we should say as much.

Proinsias wrote:I don't think you are hearing me. Preference for ice cream is a moral issue

And that, brothers and sisters, is the kind of foolishness you get people who insist on denying biblical theism. A good illustration of any as the length people will go to avoid acknowledging basic truths.

I agree with those who say someone living in open sin shouldn't serve in leadership roles. Is a member of the worship team(a singer, drummer, guitarist, etc.) in a leadership role? Or would that only pertain to the worship leader?

The scenario certainly is made to seem like they're living together and having sex. If not, then it's a different story.

While probably not realistic, they may be living in the same house, are planning on getting married, but are not having sex.

1 Corinthians 1:99 God is faithful, through whom you were called into fellowship with His Son, Jesus Christ our Lord.

Audie wrote:
"Christianity is not a joke, but it has some very poor representatives."

How about This -- everyone is welcome in church -- hearing God's Word taught. When in active roles in the church -- living a Godly life Should be Expected. Would it really Matter what position they are in while taking part in the Praise / Worship team? Can they actually thank the Lord for their housing ? Giving thanks to God for a boyfriend / gfriend who is supposed to be leading the way spiritually or being led spiritually? Isn't that what Christian couples Should be doing?
Society is getting more and more permissive morally / grief -- I will Not get into that.

A couple is attending church!
And they are sinners.....
Is that not what church is for? Sinners that need Christ.
Being part of the band is not leadership. They are taking an active part in worship, which is great.
What's the alternative? Shun or ostracise them?
If we held such a harsh view of every person in regards to sin would anyone be allowed through the door?
Jesus said that the He came for the sick and needy.
It's a terrible injustice to Christ when we start to treat or believe others are unworthy to take part in worship.
We are all to some degree a pretty pathetic bunch in need of forgiveness and Christ' mercy, far be it from us to decide who has right of passage to sing for him, strum a guitar or help in any way fitting.
What a great start that they are there in first place and willing to contribute. The body of Christ has many parts all as important as each other.

Being part of a Praise / Worship Team in a church -- at least in churches around Here Are a small group of people up front and they are considered part of the 'leadership' / leading the people in the congregation In praising and worshiping God.

The 'alternative' would be to be part of the rest of the congregation who Are praising and worshiping God. But Not up front. There Is a difference.

And, yes, Everyone on this earth is a sinner -- to some degree or another. Do we Let everyone do whatever sinning they want to? or do we have guidelines to follow. If a person does 'such and such' there Will be disciplinary action taken. Or people will Not be allowed to do 'whatever' because they are breaking a moral code. And I can remember when couples who 'shacked up together' were Not accepted in the community because they were openly defying the Biblical moral code.
And in the church community -- persons' up front in a leadership position Should be held to a high standard / Biblical standard of behavior. If Not -- are we not in effect condoning their behavior?
The same with teachers -- people that young people look up to as an example of the right way to do things.

So -- the idea is NOT to exclude them from being in church -- not at all. Everyone Should be taking part in worship in their seats in the congregation.

It's not something that should be a big deal. Church discipline is something that Bible is clear on that we don't talk about. This is just standard discipline. If you are living in open sin, then part of the discipline involved is that you can't be leading the congregation. Like crochet said, we're all sinners, so we're not talking about this or that "daily sin." We're talking about those kinds of things that are very clear issues--the kind Paul addressed in 1 Tim and Titus. Really, again, I don't see how this should be that controversial. You can't lead a church--where lead means you are following Christ and asking people to follow you in following Him--if you yourself aren't following Christ.

Proinsias wrote:I don't think you are hearing me. Preference for ice cream is a moral issue

And that, brothers and sisters, is the kind of foolishness you get people who insist on denying biblical theism. A good illustration of any as the length people will go to avoid acknowledging basic truths.

Jac3510 wrote:I can't respond to the tone as I didn't see the original piece, but the substance seems correct. You shouldn't be in a position of leadership in the church if you are living in open sin. That goes for anybody and everybody, and living in open sin does not only refer to sexual sin. But, in this case, it's rather clear cut, and we should say as much.

If I recall correctly, the couple is in premarreige counseling. So that is why the wait. However, not sure if they are considered common law by their respective State. The TV folks should consider facts before judgment. We all need to judge things rightly, not religiously high and mighty like.

In some cultures,a man marries his wife by simplely shacking up and are considered married by their culture mores'. Many of these folks stay together longer then the average USA couple does. I minister on the Reservations and run across this a lot. You have the native way verses the official state marriage license way. It pays to be discerning...judge rightly.

Now I would agree if the folks were unsaved and on the praise team such should not minister at all. That is another issue altogether.

Now the question comes up that if any one in ministry position in open sin should not minster. That is true and if held to the strictest of standards, then, about 2/3rds or even higher of all ministers, staff, volunteers in churches are unfit...

There is No difference in open sin or hidden sin as sin is sin in God's eyes. The key is God's correction, are folks willing to be corrected and turn away from sin as Titus 2:11-13 NIV states or not?

For example:

There was a man I once knew many years ago that I had to kick off a ministry team because he had an issue with being a ladies man, had to have sex. He was not open to correction by God or us. He would not seek help or counsel. He hurt many Christian gals, and I can only pray he changed. I actually doubt his salvation claim was real and only can pray that in time it could be made real.
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I think you're probably right that most ministers are unfit, BW. But then again, I also have a different view of "minister" than most people do, too. And if they are in premarital counseling, then they obviously aren't married (or at least they aren't in the church's eyes). If they want to continue leading ministry in the church, they should live separately until they are formally married. The Bible is clear about not even giving the appearance of evil

Proinsias wrote:I don't think you are hearing me. Preference for ice cream is a moral issue

And that, brothers and sisters, is the kind of foolishness you get people who insist on denying biblical theism. A good illustration of any as the length people will go to avoid acknowledging basic truths.

Jac3510 wrote:I think you're probably right that most ministers are unfit, BW. But then again, I also have a different view of "minister" than most people do, too. And if they are in premarital counseling, then they obviously aren't married (or at least they aren't in the church's eyes). If they want to continue leading ministry in the church, they should live separately until they are formally married. The Bible is clear about not even giving the appearance of evil

So, you'd say that participating on the worship team, is leading?

1 Corinthians 1:99 God is faithful, through whom you were called into fellowship with His Son, Jesus Christ our Lord.

Audie wrote:
"Christianity is not a joke, but it has some very poor representatives."

Proinsias wrote:I don't think you are hearing me. Preference for ice cream is a moral issue

And that, brothers and sisters, is the kind of foolishness you get people who insist on denying biblical theism. A good illustration of any as the length people will go to avoid acknowledging basic truths.