Can you tell me what weight of dough you used, and how much cheese and sauce, also by weight, that you used?

Peter

I will have to check my calculator at home but heres the weights i used for 4 dough balls for 4 14 inch. pizzas. This is Loos recipe! Thank you Loo!!! You rock!!>> >>1148g King Arthur AP Flour>>476g Water>>276g Corn Oil>>20g ADY>>20g Salt

It might be recalled that back in the other HRI thread, at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,6009.msg51517.html#msg51517, there was considerable discussion on the cheeses that HRI was using for its pizzas. It was believed at the time, based on articles that had been written about HRI and also information that was provided to me by an employee at HRI, that HRI was using three forms of mozzarella cheese. We speculated that maybe two of the mozzarella cheeses were a low-moisture part-skim mozzarella cheese and a whole-milk mozzarella cheese and possibly the third cheese was smoked mozzarella or maybe even scamorza. Recently, as I was conducting further research on HRI, I came across a section of HRI's website that deals with Hot Lunches for schools. It has been my experience in the past that it is fruitful to research school lunch programs because schools require specific nutrition information. That information often provides leads on details of the products provided to the schools.

If one looks at the description of the cheeses in the above documents, it appears that there are two mozzarella cheeses. They are described as follows: CHEESE:(LOW MOISTURE PASTEURIZED PART SKIM MILK, MOZZARELLA), PASTEURIZED PART SKIM MILK, CULTURES, SALT, ENZYMES. The differences between a generic low-moisture part-skim mozzarella cheese and a part-skim mozzarella cheese, apart from having different water contents (46.5% and 53.8%, respectively), can be seen at the NutritionData.self website at http://nutritiondata.self.com/facts/dairy-and-egg-products/28/2 and at http://nutritiondata.self.com/facts/dairy-and-egg-products/27/2. I have no idea as to why HRI would be using two forms of part-skim mozzarella cheese. It is also not clear exactly what HRI may be selling to schools. Two of the photos shown in the above links are to the Classic HRI pizzas. However, if one looks at the cheese ingredients lists for the current HRI frozen pizzas, for example, the 12" cheese and sausage pizzas, at http://www.homeruninnpizza.com/frozen-pizza/details?alias=classic-cheese and at http://www.homeruninnpizza.com/frozen-pizza/details?alias=classic-sausage, the cheese is described as follows: Mozzarella Cheese: Pasteurized part-skim milk, cheese cultures, salt, enzymes. If, as HRI says at its website, it is making its frozen pizzas just like its pizzeria pizzas ("Home Run Inn frozen pizzas use the same, exact recipes that we use in our nine Chicagoland pizzerias. The same all-natural ingredients. The same homemade sauces and sausage. Not a single additive or preservative"), then that would suggest that HRI is using only one mozzarella cheese on its pizzas, as discussed above.

Offhand, I do not recall seeing a part-skim mozzarella cheese in the supermarkets near me, only the low-moisture version. So, the low-moisture version is what most members may have to use on their HRI clones.

I should have mentioned in my last post that the four pizzas referenced in that post were all in the 2007-2008 timeframe, at least according to the Wayback Machine, which is about the time period that loo (loowaters) became interested in cloning the HRI pizzas. Also, the information on the four pizzas is from Fox River Foods, which apparently is HRI's foodservice company. As can be seen at http://www.foxriverfoods.com/, Fox River is about to be acquired by the Performance Food Group, which is a giant in the foodservice industry.

Another difference that I noted in looking at the nutrition information for the four pizzas and the current HRI frozen pizzas, is that the current HRI frozen pizzas have more oregano than the prior versions.

Peter,I believe I have purchased a l/m p/s cheese in the grocery store made by Sorrento....not to be confused with Sargento. (Bob don't like Sargento cheeses)

Bob,

I was referring to just a part-skim mozzarella cheese, not the low-moisture part-skim mozzarella cheese, of which there are many brands sold in supermarkets. I will have to start paying attention more closely when I check out cheese sections in the supermarkets near me to see if maybe I missed seeing a part-skim mozzarella cheese with a lower moisture content.

A while back, I sent an email to Home Run Inn in which I asked if the flour used to make their pizzas was bromated. The answer came today. The flour is not bromated. Since HRI prides itself in not using any preservatives or additives (see the related comment at http://www.homeruninnpizza.com/), I would imagine that the flour is also not bleached. Ruling out bromates and bleaching agents rules out a lot of professional flours for the HRI pizzas. But there are still a lot of professional flours that HRI can use.

Thanks for posting that HRI uses the same photo on its menus. Someday I might try to make a HRI pizza. I would like to try every type of pizza on the forum if I find the time. If I ever find myself in Maryland if will purchase a HRI frozen pizza to see why it is so different.

Norma,HRI is sold in some Walmarts...I just checked the store in Lancaster and it was not carried at that store. FWIW, I have made their crust at home and it is easy....turns out real authentic too. Good luck should you ever decide to give it a go....

Norma,HRI is sold in some Walmarts...I just checked the store in Lancaster and it was not carried at that store. FWIW, I have made their crust at home and it is easy....turns out real authentic too. Good luck should you ever decide to give it a go....

Bob

Bob,

Thanks for checking at the Walmart in Lancaster. Interesting that you have made the crust at home and it was easy and authentic. I might give a HRI pizza a try someday. I have to read the threads.

Norma,HRI is sold in some Walmarts...I just checked the store in Lancaster and it was not carried at that store. FWIW, I have made their crust at home and it is easy....turns out real authentic too. Good luck should you ever decide to give it a go....

Bob

Can you give a link to the thread for the easy, authentic dough you made? Or share a formulation?

Yes, I made my first one probably about 3 years ago. I'm a big fan of Loo Waters and always found his directions to be very helpful..and he encourages tweaking. This dough works great at home but it does require playing around with the oil level a bit to get it where ya want it.

FWIW, I have made their crust at home and it is easy....turns out real authentic too.

Respectfully--but strongly--I could not disagree more. The recipe in this thread is absolutely nothing like HRI at all.

FWIW, I'd take the frozen version any day over the supposed "clone" recipe. It is not just the flavor but the entire texture and other characteristics that are simply not there. Given a blind taste test, I wouldn't even think, "Hmmm, I see what you're going for--Home Run Inn?" It is really that far off the mark, despite the raves in this thread.

Respectfully--but strongly--I could not disagree more. The recipe in this thread is absolutely nothing like HRI at all.

FWIW, I'd take the frozen version any day over the supposed "clone" recipe. It is not just the flavor but the entire texture and other characteristics that are simply not there. Given a blind taste test, I wouldn't even think, "Hmmm, I see what you're going for--Home Run Inn?" It is really that far off the mark, despite the raves in this thread.

Obviously, YMMV...

Garvey

Garvey,

I have spent considerable time studying the HRI pizzas and methods over the past couple months, including what was done in the early days of HRI, what it now does in its stores, and what it has been doing in its frozen pizza operation, and I think that you may be right. Unfortunately, from the reverse engineering and cloning standpoint, I have been forced to limit myself to what HRI had been doing with its frozen pizzas because the only nutrition information that is available on their pizzas is the Nutrition Facts for their frozen pizzas. I even found what I believe to be a major error in the HRI Nutrition Facts that cannot be explained based on what I know about pizza and ingredients. The "error", if that is what it is, also falls outside of the FDA's 20% rule. I have called HRI on this matter, and even told them where to look for the answer, and was told that they would look into it. If I am right, technically they should correct their Nutrition Facts because the error is in an area that nutritionists and other health professionals have indicated to be an important one from a nutrition standpoint. I am not holding my breath that they will get back to me even though I asked them to do so. If I am wrong, I want to know where and why.

I have been studying mainly the HRI frozen cheese, pepperoni and sausage pizzas because there are similarities as well as differences that shed light on what they are doing. I have concluded that while the dough formulations that have been discussed in this thread, and in the companion thread, may lead to crusts that have a flavor that is similar to an HRI crust, I believe the weights are off, at least for the crusts. While I haven't studied each and every dough formulation, I think that the dough ball weights have been too high for the most part, and that can lead to the crust textures being off. There is also the matter of being able to simulate the HRI crust (the frozen version) when using a home oven where it may be necessary to use a screen or a dark anodized perforated disk (as used in the HRI stores) as opposed to a conveyor oven as used by HRI where the skins are processed "naked" (i.e., without disks or other carriers), docked, pre-baked, dressed and then baked further (but not 100%) before freezing. There may also be some issues related to how to achieve the flakiness of an HRI crust using standard home stand mixers or even food processors. We also can't simulate hot dough presses that HRI uses in its stores and in its frozen pizza operation. But I do not deem these issues to be insurmountable. I think it is possible to come quite close, and in some cases to better the frozen HRI pizzas and come closer to the store versions.

If you hadn't been so vocal and outspoken on this subject, I perhaps wouldn't have decided to take it up again. However, I think I know more about what I am doing now as compared with what I knew and did when loo (loowaters) started the original HRI thread.

I did try Loo's formulation afew times in 2011 (I posted some results on page 9 of this thread), but I couldn't compare it to the real thing as I've never had HRI before, and the frozen ones weren't available in Canada. I just realized I can buy them here in Arizona though, so I will be off to buy a couple tonight! I'm really looking forward to it. I didn't realize that they par cooked the whole pizza... That's what the mom n' pops did back home in minneapolis!

If you hadn't been so vocal and outspoken on this subject, I perhaps wouldn't have decided to take it up again. However, I think I know more about what I am doing now as compared with what I knew and did when loo (loowaters) started the original HRI thread.

Thanks for the feedback, Peter, and your hard work on this.

I have to say, among the many forums I've frequented over the years, this one is the most collegial and supportive of them all. The downside of that is a hesitation to (constructively) criticize recipes, especially when they come from a longtime, beloved member (e.g., in this case, Loo). We are, after all, talking about the recipe and not about the person, but you still wanna "play nice." So if I have been too strident, Loo or anyone else, I apologize for coming off that way.

So I guess the questions remain, as you pointed out, Peter--how do we achieve these texture and taste benchmarks in a home environment? As a side note, it's interesting that the chains are the hardest to nail down (e.g., besides HRI, Aurelio's has not been cloned properly yet, and Giordano's and Malnati's took herculean efforts and many trials from many people, etc.). But I guess that isn't all that surprising. Chains do things on a scale that we don't or can't, necessarily, in the home environment, whereas the mom-n-pops shops are more like an outgrowth of the home environment to begin with.

You can get a pretty good idea as to how HRI makes its frozen pizzas from the article that I previously referenced at http://digital.bnpmedia.com/publication/?i=37488&p=14. In that article, it says that the oil is added to the flour, and then the yeast and salt. The article is silent as to when the water is added. However, Tom Lehmann, who once did some consulting work for HRI for its frozen pizza operation (I remember seeing his name in one of the early articles on HRI's frozen pizza operation), says that the conventional method is to add the oil right after the water has been added to the mixer bowl so that you don't end up with clumps of oiled flour. It sounds like high-speed mixers are used to make the HRI kind of dough so in a home setting it might make sense to use a food processor or maybe a stand mixer with the whisk attachment used intially to blend the oil and flour together more uniformly.

The duration of fermentation of the dough can also affect the texture of the finished crust. I have read that HRI has used 12-18 hours of cold fermentation (see the article at Reply 188 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,6112.msg190395.html#msg190395) and up to 2 to 3 days (see the YouTube video at http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TsQCgtla79E&feature=youtu.be). Getting a good rise in the dough isn't as important as with other doughs since the HRI dough balls are formed into skins using hot presses that impart tremendous force on the dough balls and skins that forces out a lot of the gases while partially heating the skin. Also, the large amount of oil in the dough, even with a lot of yeast, will keep the dough from going wild and rising excessively during the period of cold fermentation. In a home setting, it should be OK to use a rolling pin to form the skins, although it should also be possible to form the skins by hand.

The other thing that is important is to get a rim that is upstanding. To a degree, that is a function of the combination of the amounts of oil and water in the dough. They have to be just right to permit the rim to stand upright for pretty much the full time--during forming, dressing and baking. A good view of such a rim can be seen in Reply 195 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,6112.msg235707.html#msg235707. That photo is for a store-made HRI pizza, using a perforated dark anodized disk, which is something that is also a good option for a home oven. You won't get a rim like shown in Reply 195 in a frozen HRI pizza. The rim of a frozen HRI pizza will be rounded, and made without human intervention. Once a proper upstanding rim is made, there is a better likelihood that the texture of the finished crust will be what you want in an HRI type of crust. If HRI's Nutrition Facts are correct, I think there is less oil that what the members have been using in this thread, so that can make it a bit easier to form a rim that properly stands upright. Getting the hydration right is a challenge because there is water loss during baking, and it is very difficult to apportion the total loss among the dough, the sauce and the cheese (and sausage, if used, and pepperoni to a much smaller degree if it is used).

I will be interested in getting any feedback from CDNpielover should he decide to try out some of the HRI frozen pizzas. One of the things he is likely to note is that the 12" frozen HRI pizzas are closer to 11 1/2" than 12". I also believe that the HRI frozen cheese pizzas and the pepperoni cheeses have the same amount of cheese but that the frozen HRI sausage pizza has less cheese than the other pizzas because the weight of the sausage is considerably more than the weight of pepperoni slices. So, to offset the added weight of the sausage, I believe they cut back on the amount of cheese for the sausage pizza. It is also possible that the weights of the HRI frozen pizzas are more than the boxes indicate. It is common practice in the frozen pizza business to make the frozen pizzas weigh more than stated on the packaging materials. The last thing they want is to have consumers protesting that they got pizzas that weighed less than was stated.

I can understand that people would like to be able to make a credible HRI clone at home. As one can see in a typical HRI menu, http://www.homeruninnpizza.com/website/documents/menus/HRI%20TakeOutMenu_2012_lowres.pdf, a 12" cheese pizza costs $14.80, and goes to $16.50 if a topping, like pepperoni or sausage, for example, is added. I don't know if a store-bought HRI pizza weighs more that one of their frozen counterparts, but I estimated that the costs (at my level) for a basic HRI clone cheese pizza is around $4. HRI uses a "natural" pepperoni that will be hard to find at retail so finding such a pepperoni is likely to increase the at-home cost of an HRI clone pepperoni pizza.