I have just been studying the log. Interestingly the size of the file is just 666kb and yesterday was the eve of Friday13th.

The bash started normally enough. With everyone just plugging away. After a short while a male voice shouted ?the pagoda is open guys?. We now had our first problem. No one in the game knew how to get upstairs in the pag. I discussed this with CF and we agreed to look at it later and get on with other things now.

Then a real disaster struck. Mephistoph got killed by the dragon, leaving the means of killing her somewhere on the island. I did not feel like going after it myself and so felt I could not ask anyone else to. Again I put this problem in the back of my mind to be dealt with later on and got on with the game. I was pleased when later, much later, someone did kill the dragon. The SV was now at 100.

Now we come to the turning point of the whole evening. This is the bit you all want to read about: Leak?s death. I asked for someone to partner me for the dwarfs and JB obliged. But the pick was not where it ought to be. JB told me that Leak had it and try as he may he was unable to get it off him and is his opinion Leak was afk. I joined them under the well. There was no response from Leak and I had to agree with JB that he was indeed afk, I made the decision to kill Leak as time was getting on and I could see no other way of getting the pick. Later Hawumph did say to me I could have consulted a wiz. I agree I could have done but that honestly did not occur to me at the time. I regret that. I cannot emphasise too much that the responsibility was mine and mine alone and that JB only joined in towards the end. There was no sign of life in Leak at any time during the fight. He made no attempt to use a wp or magic. Had there been I would have offered to wd without hesitation.

The wizzes were obviously upset at what had happened. Not immediately, but after a while JB was taken out by someone calling themselves ?greasypete?. I felt this had to be a wiz-mort meeting out justice. Both Leak and JB were doted upon and soon back in the game at spellbinder and superhero respectively. This seemed fair to me though I would not have complained had they been restored to an even higher level. After a while I noticed JB was JB the superspy. I do know where that came from but guess he was still at superhero. Then after a while JB managed to get himself MU at Spellbinder.

Then I got attacked by an ?invis? who I assumed to be Greasypete still a wiz-mort. I did a safe flee at 34 from a battle I knew I would lose. Meanwhile JB slipped down to enchanter and I conclude that Greasypete got him a second time. Then I got attacked a second time and again did a safe flee at 31. Back in the Tearoom I decided it was suicidal to go back in and stayed out the rest of the game. There was yet another killing of JB again by someone invis. At that time I concluded that Greasypete was not a wiz but a mortal. Why would a wiz restore anyone to kill them again? That made no sense.

Sadly, JB was extremely upset by this continual bullying by an obviously very experienced player and announced he was leaving the game permanently. His other persona committed suicide. I do hope he does come back. If anyone deserved a rebuke it was me and not JB and that rebuke should have come from a wiz not my another player setting himself up as some sort of Justice in the Land.

Having said that, I realise that there are no rules about PK?ing during a bash. It is not advisable as it obviously depletes the numbers playing. And if what happened to JB and me was the result of friendship of Leak and a desire for pure vengeance, I take back all I said in that last paragraph.

I regret what happened but I do not apologise. Putting aside that matter of the pick, it seems to me that we had a player AFK for a very long time (still in the land so he would not lose his 3k) in a safe place under the well, while the rest of us were bashing away. That was my perception and it still is. I am open to be dissuaded of this view and I will apologise unreservedly if I am shown to be wrong.

Here is the obit:-

*obit
The following players have died in fights this reset:
Jamesbond the enchanter, killed by someone,
Jamesbond the necromancer, killed by Greasypete the dragon-slaying champion,
Leak the sorcerer, killed by Royston the bash-general necromancer and Jamesbond the necromancer,
Norm the superhero, killed by the ape.

The following have died to FODs from mortals this reset:
Fantods the necromancer, violently disintegrated by a failed attempt to FOD Fantods the necromancer.

The following non-first-game players have died to the touchstone this reset:
Greasypete the champion, short of luck by a quite small amount.
The following players have died miscellaneous deaths this reset:
Mephistoph the necromancer, killed by the dragon's breath.

[ This Message was edited by: royston on 13-06-2008 09:30 ]

[ This Message was edited by: royston on 13-06-2008 09:30 ] &nbsp

ZordellclericJoined: Aug 08, 2003Posts: 216

Posted: 13-06-2008 10:59 &nbspWas a very weird night to say the least. I think some people had forgotten that pking does occur during bashes, and learned this the hard way.
I thought personally the attack on Leak was a bit harsh, he's not my bestest friend in the whole world but I still felt awfully bad for him. He does tend to go afk a long time, so this was a lesson learned for him. Pee quicker, Leak! Hehe.
When during a bash theres this urgent feel to hurryhurry and I am guessing that the whole thing occured not due to any real malice (but I do wonder, if it were someone else would the PKing have occured)? Just a desperate urgency to get in there and get the sv down.
As for JB, I am very sad. I think the world of him, and he has always been super nice and friendly. I am hoping that whatever he felt last night will deminish and he will come back to us very soon. Will miss him horribly. I am sure many other players will agree with me here!
Ok my cuppa is getting cold so I will shut up now.

&nbsp

ArmandexplorerJoined: Nov 20, 2006Posts: 530

Posted: 13-06-2008 11:22 &nbsp>> I could see no other way of getting the pick

Well, I can think of several ways of getting an item from someone without killing them (steal, summon, push them off a cliff, and several others that I won't reveal). But I think the question you should be asking yourself is, why did you need the pick? (you're not supposed to answer that, just give it some thought).

>> Both Leak and JB were doted upon and soon back in the game at spellbinder and superhero respectively. This seemed fair to me though I would not have complained had they been restored to an even higher level.

I disagree. Whilst I can appreciate a wiz feeling sorry for Leak who is basically a newbie sorc who got team killed while afk for an item that isn't essential for anything, Jamesbond was a necro who was killed fair and square by a champion. I consider Jamesbond to be one of my favourite people on MUD, but that doesn't stop me thinking that restores shouldn't be handed out just because someone has died (unless the death is unfair somehow). Actually I think restoring someone who has been PKed is very unfair to the PKer who ends up being robbed of his kill.

With that said, I believe you are slightly wrong about what happened. It is my understanding that JB was given some points to around superhero, decided to TS, and got lucky. (EDIT: just noticed you did actually say he was restored to superhero. Sorry).

>> At that time I concluded that Greasypete was not a wiz but a mortal. Why would a wiz restore anyone to kill them again?

Wizzes do not use wiz powers to influence the game, and then play mortal in the same set (feel free to correct me if I'm wrong, wizzes). So your question doesn't make any sense as Greasypete was not the person handing out restores. I'm not going to speculate here on whether or not Greasypete is a wizmort, and I don't think its relevant to anything anyway, as wizmorts play within the confines of the same game mechanics and rules as everyone else.

>> Sadly, JB was extremely upset by this continual bullying by an obviously very experienced player and announced he was leaving the game permanently.

This does indeed make me sad and I really hope he returns. However, I do not consider that I was bullying anyone last night (it was me that got the second kill on JB, and the second flee on Royston). When I first headed north it was indeed to avenge Leak, albeit not in a personal way (i.e. I was playing within the game, not acting on some RL annoyance or anything... some people take things too seriously!). However Greasypete beat me to that. I killed Jamesbond simply because I didn't think the restore was fair (and again this was nothing personal to Jamesbond).

>> Having said that, I realise that there are no rules about PK?ing during a bash.

Yes, it is perfectly normal. I don't know why some players have this idea that they're untouchable in a bash. I personally rarely pk during bashes, but unfortunately some people take advantage of the perceived "safeness" of bashes to score points with the hope that they won't be PKed. So whilst you'll normally find me either bashing or sitting in the tearoom on a Thursday evening, I'm also quite happy to PK if I have a reason. Occasionally I'll do it just because I feel like it, and I think its healthy for the game for players to not have this 100% expectation that a bash is safe. I don't PK newbies, so I don't think I'm in much danger making people quit, although sadly last night it appears that I did exactly that.

>> in a safe place under the well.

If it was a safe room, how did you kill him?

-----------------------------------------------------------

Anyway, I think the most important thing here is that we seem to have a lost a player who is well liked. Its my sincere hope that he returns.

[ This Message was edited by: Armand on 13-06-2008 11:49 ] &nbsp

gobstopperpilgrimJoined: Jun 13, 2008Posts: 21

Posted: 13-06-2008 13:36 &nbspHello! This is Greasypete. Bloody hell this seems to have got an awful lot of knickers twisted! Just to clear things up, I had already been on for a while when Leak was killed, so obviously I couldn't have been a wiz that came on for some sort of weird giving points back/revenge mission.

Then I saw Leak was killed and thought I might as well join in the fun.

Little did I know Hal had decided to do the same thing. Jamesbond died, Royston fled and then I decided to attack hal. Jamesbond then attacked me but fled and I was in the middle of a skirmish with Hal when i died to ts. That was hardly picking on anyone was it? &nbsp

ArmandexplorerJoined: Nov 20, 2006Posts: 530

Posted: 13-06-2008 14:21 &nbspPersonally, I think if it wasn't for the fact that some people took it badly, that set was some of the best fun I've had in a while. Reminds me of the "old days" when the game was busy and there was lots of action (ok I'm actually referring to BL there, but I'm sure MUD2 was the same). &nbsp

Posted: 13-06-2008 14:22 &nbspThank you for all your comments. I have read and studied them all most carefully. I have no wish to prolong this thread but from what you have said, some of my remarks need clarification. I am not seeking to justify anything but only to explain.

First from Zordell:

>(but I do wonder, if it were someone else would the PKing have occurred)?

Yes it would. There was nothing personal in this. To me it was a problem holding up the bash to which a solution had to be found.

Then to answer Armand:

>Well, I can think of several ways of getting an item from someone without killing them (steal, summon, push them off a cliff, and several others that I won't reveal).

JB tried stealing; the summon command is not on my list of spells at my level and I have no idea how to use it, and we were no where near a cliff. Had I known another way to get the pick I would have used it. I agree I should have consulted a wiz but as I said, I did not think of that at the time and I bitterly regret not doing so,

>But I think the question you should be asking yourself is, why did you need the pick? (you're not supposed to answer that, just give it some thought).

You are telling me I think, that there is more than one way into the dwarfs or there is more than one way of obtaining entry by the route I know. Thank you for that tip. I will be working on it.

>Greasypete beat me to that. I killed Jamesbond simply because I didn't think the restore was fair (and again this was nothing personal to Jamesbond). champion.

Up to now I had assumed wrongly that Greasypete and the invis PK were the same persona. That means there were two or possibly three players seeking vengeance. I take back my remark about one experienced player bullying. If the retaliation arose out of a sense of vengeance and not one of injustice (there is a difference), then that is reasonable and what the game is surely all about. But did it? We have a situation here where a wiz restored a player to a certain level. Another mortal player disagreed with this and effectively overturned that wiz?s decision by sheer force of skill and experience. This is no different from ?arguing with the ref?; worse in fact because the he effected a change. This I suggest, is dangerous ground to be on. I am glad it wasn?t me.

>If it was a safe room, how did you kill him?

I meant safe from mobiles.

The one thing we all agreed on is the sadness we feel that JB has left. Like everyone else, I hope he recovers from this set back and returns to us soon.

Lastly, thank you to Gobstopper, who seems to have only recently joined us, for putting things back into true perspective. Let?s keep them there.

&nbsp

ArmandexplorerJoined: Nov 20, 2006Posts: 530

Posted: 13-06-2008 14:59 &nbsp

Quote:

We have a situation here where a wiz restored a player to a certain level. Another mortal player disagreed with this and effectively overturned that wiz?s decision by sheer force of skill and experience.

On the face of it, what you've said sounds reasonable and logical, but I think we need to look a bit closer what what it means when a wiz does something. When a wiz restores a player, that is a decision that grants an instantaneous boon to the mortal. The points are added, and thats the end. The minute that player goes north again with his new points, he's no different to how he was before. The restore doesn't imply some kind "wiz protection" for the mortal's future sets, unless the wiz has specifically announced that this is the case.

What you said sort of implies that its wrong to "undo" a wiz decision, but I think thats misleading because the wiz did not decide that the player shouldn't die, he merely decided that he should be given some points. If the wiz had shouted "Please do not attack Jamesbond" and someone then killed him, then I could see your point.

I guess what I'm trying to say is that what I did was entirely within the confines of: game mechanics, rules, and wiz-imposed restrictions at the time. And in fact what I did was indirectly for vengeance of Leak's death, because I was simply getting back the kill that had already been made.

Anyway, having posted this much makes me feel like I'm taking this as seriously as I said people shouldn't! I don't mean to give that impression: ultimately I see all of last night's events (including killing leak) as just part of the game, and not something that should be ruining people's friendships. It IS a combat-oriented game, and if you don't go north with the expectation that you'll probably die at some point, then you're just setting yourself up for feeling upset when it does happen. There was nobody in last night's game that I don't consider myself friendly with, so its a shame if anyone did take things personally.

My opinion is that for way too long there has been no pking on bashes. I remember there being at least one pk on every bash and so its about time we had some action. I noticed a few months back that bashs were becoming way too easy and that high lives were making serious points and making serious mistakes with no consequence. I like JB and hes a top bloke and I hope he comes back but dying is a part of the game and am baffled by the use of the term 'bullying'. Pete started the reset with everyone at a very low level and had just as much chance as you to gain items.

I enjoyed last night a lot and was good to see so many players.

Cf &nbsp

MagicianclericJoined: Mar 27, 2005Posts: 160

Posted: 13-06-2008 21:54 &nbspHello, Bond here, Jamesbond!

I?m not sure where to start?.

Well, firstly I?d like to say thank you for all the kind posts - All well written and accurate in detail from ones own perspective.

Second, I would like to apologise for the way I behaved last night, I was quite rude to one or two people which is out of character for me, and I really should know better!

I will run through the series of events as I saw them.

My frustration started to build in the set prior to the bash. I was totally out smarted by a non-magic user. Greasypete was at superhero level (I think) when he attacked my necro. I don?t know how he did half the stuff he did at that level, but eventually I had to flee. I thought, well, I am alive and need to workout how he did that stuff! Didn?t think too much more of it.

Then the bash?.

All was going well, Royston describes perfectly the events with Leak, yes, there were other way to get the pick, but at the time they didn?t spring to mind. I must have admit I thought of killing myself before Roy attacked him. So, when Roy hit him I joined in - the out come for Leak was inevitable with or without me and my helping just help speed up us doing the dwarfs.

Then Pete?..

Pete, obviously now knows I am an easy target from the previous set. Anyway somewhere near the spring he attacks me again, this time I left my flee a little too late and extended the obit list. OK, I am upset at dieing again but, even more angry with myself for dieing to a non-magic user.

The Wiz?.

Then a kind wiz gave me a free ride to superhero. After a little pondering in the tearoom, thought easy come easy go, and headed off for the TS for justice to be served. I didn?t expect for one second to survive!

So , with my new found magic I headed of to find Pete and try and get my revenge, only to have to flee again and drop a level as a result.

Then Hal?

So, I am on 6000 points ish, and thinking I may as well get on with the bash - see if we cant get another 3k out of it. So, I am just sleeping up and Someone attacks me. Bang - dead again. Now I am really frustrated, I was looking forward to playing such a low level with magic, it was a first for me.

I asked Hal, almost in disbelief , if he had attacked me. His reply was ?yes, pay back for killing Leak? or words similar to that.

I think that comment was the one that did it for me!

So, a few questions?.

Are we going to keep having bashes where we get PK?s coming out with their sole purpose to disrupt the bash? If so, sooner or later you will drive everyone away!
Will it be ok if I try my fighting skills out players 4 levels below me? I?m sure that will really encourage new players to stay!

If I decide to attack someone of a similar level - will there be a mighty warlock that will slay me down for my sins?

If a wiz decides to give some free points, should a mortal go against that judgement and take them away in effect saying the wiz or even Arch wiz is wrong?

I think wizzes, wiz morts and high level players need to think of their actions for the good of the game.

Hal killing my Enchanter 4 levels below him was plain pointless.

Greasypete, the wiz mort, showing off his skills, well I am impressed, but pointless.

Just look at BL, wizmorts killing everything that moves - now the game is empty.

I don?t want to see this game as a BL 2!

As Arnie said ?I?ll be back?

JB

&nbsp

TzunamicabalistJoined: Oct 28, 2001Posts: 36From: 97005

Posted: 14-06-2008 07:53 &nbspThis is good stuff, guys. If you keep creating interesting sounding resets like this we might just lure Po back to the game.

"I made the decision to kill Leak as time was getting on and I could see no other way of getting the pick".

Posted: 14-06-2008 09:41 &nbspI can't help noticing that thoughout all this post-bash turbulence there is one player who has kept very quiet while the rest of us were thrashing it out. I mean Leak himself. There has not been one word of complaint from him. He has distanced himself from the argument and maintained a dignified silence.

Jb. Good to hear from you. You raise 3 key points which need addressing.

1.Who says Pete is a wizmort? How do you define one? Someone who beats you? Someone who attacks you? Im confused.

2.You think that being attacked will drive people away. Im completly and utterly baffled by this. Bar wizrunners like Marlock, I havent actually seen one player attack another for...ages..especially not on a bash. A bash is a time for everyone to kill mobiles, not a chance for people to throw caution to the wind and play highlifes to sneak up. If a bash is anti pk, you will know about it before hand. Otherwise, play your set how you would anyway ie dont sleep on 4 stam in the hut (saw last Thursday), or run around on 2 stam at the Jetty (saw a few weeks ago). Pking is and always will be a part of the game and we still have players, they just get better. I dont want to open the whole pk debate again as it's tired and boring.

3.Hal attacking you at a higher level would normally worry me and to be honest I did give thought whether I should speak to him. However thats between myself and Hal. All he did was return the favour to what you did to Leak which in his and many others eyes was completly out of line and character. If I hadnt known Hal ie he was an unknown Warlock, I would probably have said something but you, and most people know Hal isnt the kind of person who makes a habit of picking on low lives.

I hope this puts an end to the situation. Come back soon JB but dont leave it too long.

Cf
_________________Crazyfool &nbsp

ArmandexplorerJoined: Nov 20, 2006Posts: 530

Posted: 14-06-2008 16:06 &nbspThanks CF, you pretty much said everything I wanted to say. But I'll add a few comments anyway:

Quote:

Will it be ok if I try my fighting skills out players 4 levels below me? If I decide to attack someone of a similar level - will there be a mighty warlock that will slay me down for my sins?

I think that question is a bit unfair. As CF pointed out I don't generally attack lowbies. In fact I don't usually attack anyone below warlock! I've explained that I had a reason. You disagree with the reason, but I still had one, and you're making it sound like I did it just because I felt like it. You've known me for years, so you know that's not my style. I think the fact that I've only attacked you 3 times in over a year should speak for itself.

Quote:

If a wiz decides to give some free points, should a mortal go against that judgement and take them away in effect saying the wiz or even Arch wiz is wrong?

I covered this point earlier.

Quote:

Greasypete, the wiz mort, showing off his skills, well I am impressed, but pointless.

Why's it pointless? Its a combat oriented game, greasypete was below your level, and didn't have magic. There's no way you can say the fight was unfair, so it seems to boil down to you saying that PKing period is pointless? I must say I'm quite surprised if this is how you feel.

Quote:

Just look at BL, wizmorts killing everything that moves.

Fights on MUD2 are very rare (compared to BL), and death is almost always avoidable (unlike BL). Its quite a stretch to say that we're in danger of wizmorts killing everything that moves, just based on one night's worth of fights.

[ This Message was edited by: Armand on 14-06-2008 16:28 ] &nbsp

ArmandexplorerJoined: Nov 20, 2006Posts: 530

Posted: 14-06-2008 16:09 &nbspAnyway, I'm glad to hear that you'll be returning. I was going to email you, but you beat me to it by replying on here.

I was going to offer to help you get back the persona you self-fodded, and hope you'll take me up on that when I next see you online. &nbsp

ilisitycabalistJoined: Mar 13, 2008Posts: 46

Posted: 14-06-2008 18:08 &nbspHey tis Leak here ,

I didn't reply because i felt all the points surrounding the pk had been covered really well .
I agree it was stupid of me to nip to the shop mid bash , but i was surprised when i saw the culprits of my PK . I've had lots of fun with both royston and JB in all the bashes since i started playing . As I'm using the web browser I wasn't sure why they'd done it, hence being a bit pissed off when i returned . Also I must add I wasn't just afk in a safe place waiting for the 3000 points.

Having spoke to them afterwards and reading the posts I can fully understand they're mindset in doing it and was very grateful when Hawumph restored me to spellbinder .

So overall I'm not that bothered about the PK , but the fact that new(ish) players such as me, roy, and jb felt that it was unsafe to leve the tea room worried me most . I can understand people going after mages heading for wiz and people with similar experience have battles , but to me the bash is a time when we get together and enjoy being a team all aiming for the same goal and the fear that some one wants to take advantage of the abundance of players makes playing bashes a lot less appealing .

[ This Message was edited by: ilisity on 14-06-2008 18:38 ] &nbsp

blibexplorerJoined: Jan 01, 2007Posts: 531From: N.London (just)

Posted: 14-06-2008 18:37 &nbspAs a Tearoomer, of some distinction I may add, I didn't think I right of me to comment on such high faluting stuff as Pk ing in bashes and the like.

However, I've been on here for a little while and I have sporadically joined in.

It has been my albeit naive belief, as Leak says above, that bashes were the one time when EVERYONE works together, as a team, towards a common goal. Hence the delirious cheering and breathless chatter between all of the players when that goal succeeds.

For a player to suddenly turn on an erstwhile collegue mid bash is, to my mind, unsporting and said player would receive a severe frowning upon from me as a result if they tried that particular stunt.