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Except we don't really know much about how the split happened except that the Son'a tried to take over they and then they were exiled.

Heck even the how could the Son'a lose to luddites argument only works if you believe that the Son'a who were apart of said luddite village some how got access to advanced technology that their parents who ran the colony didn't like having around.

Much of the movie really doesn't make sense where the S'ona/Ba'ku relationship is involved.

The reason no one ever bothered to ask the Baku to move is quite simple. If they say yes, movie's over. If they say no, they look like first class jerks by putting their immortality above the welfare of billions. As it is, they're not very sympathetic to start with. Pretty much everyone involved in this movie makes an ass of themselves in one way or another. Excellent writing.

Another reason why I liked the original idea, though weirdly in that version the Romulans are a lot nicer to the natives than the federation is in the finished product. They're at least will to compensate the natives its just that they'll all die if they leave the planet in that version and at least its a slightly more justifiable move seeing as Federation and Romulan medical technology breaks down without the magufin. In this film it just sounds like a freaking vanity item they're trying to get especially after Picard's little speech to Soran about mortality being a good thing and who you shouldn't blow up poor innocent planets to be immortal or something.

Except we don't really know much about how the split happened except that the Son'a tried to take over they and then they were exiled.

Heck even the how could the Son'a lose to luddites argument only works if you believe that the Son'a who were apart of said luddite village some how got access to advanced technology that their parents who ran the colony didn't like having around.

Much of the movie really doesn't make sense where the S'ona/Ba'ku relationship is involved.

Like the fact that the Son'a could have just out right conquered the planet just a few decades after being exiled and let the natural particle effect de-age them over time without having to build a complex collector thing, or try to cut corners bureaucratically to the point that his plan is a house of cards that falls apart as soon as one starship crew comes along and having to rush things.

I guess the moral of the story is that the luddite lifestyle is indefensible in the face of modern society, and that the only certain way to secure your claim on your own home is with a fuck ton of firepower.

Probably not the moral that the writers intended, but it seems to be what we're left with.

I guess the moral of the story is that the luddite lifestyle is indefensible in the face of modern society, and that the only certain way to secure your claim on your own home is with a fuck ton of firepower. After all, if instead of becoming luddites, the Ba'ku had built a modern society complete with high tech fleets and armies, then the Federation would have respected their claim and we the audience would have been spared this movie.

Probably not the moral that the writers intended, but it seems to be what we're left with.

Meh, the Ba'ku should have turned into scary energy beings and killed Ru'afo and Dougherty Raiders of the Lost Ark style.

Then the moral would have been never assume a seemingly primitive society that seems to know more than they should is a primitive society otherwise you get face melted.

Plus it would have restored the scariness of space from TOS that TNG, DS9, and VOY seemed to like doing away with.

So it is wrong for the Son'a to use force to remove the Ba'ku from their homes, but its okay for the Ba'ku to use force to remove the Son'a from the planet? The whole story is based on a bunch of plot holes, the Ba'ku were a bunch of tech hating pacifistic, how did the Son'a lose to them in the first place? Why didn't the Son'a just establish another colony on the planet after losing the Ba'ku? Frankly the Son'a being random evil alien invaders who were just selfish and wanted to be immortal would have made more sense then them being Ba'ku.

The Son'a gave up their right to live there by trying to take over.

Why? Maybe the Son'a had a legitimate point, that doing hours of needless back breaking labor to serve some Luddite philosophy is just pointless and counter productive.

The Ba'ku used force to expell the Son'a from that world and now the Son'a are using force to do remove the Ba'ku. Turn about is fair play.

The thing is with this argument, is your confusing an exile with a theft.

The Son'a knew the rules of the society in which they lived. If you note the dialog, you'll see that it was an attempted coup, somewhat different to a legitimate opposition or difference of viewpoint.

Yeah, I tend to think the Federation could use a kick in the butt every once in a while to remind them they aren't the biggest fish in the universe especially seeing as the last time they thought they were the biggest thing since sliced bread Q introduced them to the Borg.

Generally, kidnapping occurs when a person, without lawful authority, physically asports (i.e., moves) another person without that other person's consent, with the intent to use the abduction in connection with some other nefarious objective. Under the Model Penal Code (a set of exemplary criminal rules fashioned by the American Law Institute), kidnapping occurs when any person is unlawfully and non-consensually asported and held for certain purposes. These purposes include gaining a ransom or reward; facilitating the commission of a felony or a flight after the commission of a felony; terrorizing or inflicting bodily injury on the victim or a third person; and interfering with a governmental or political function (Model Penal Code § 212.1).

So explain to me how it isn't kidnapping?

Well in the UK

Kidnapping is an offence created by judges in the seventeenth century. The current definition is that kidnapping is an attack on or infringement of personal liberty, consisting of the taking or carrying away of one person by another, by force or fraud, without the consent of the person taken or carried away, and without lawful excuse.

attack on or infringement of personal liberty, consisting of the taking or carrying away of one person by another

They were intending to carry the Ba'ku away.

by force or fraud

They were going to use a holoship to make them think they were still on their planet, sounds like fraud to me.

without the consent of the person taken or carried away

The Ba'ku weren't asked if they minded being moved

and without lawful excuse

Whist the planet might be within Federation space, it was settled before the Federation was founded and the Ba'ku weren't informed so they could seek redress through legal means.

Looks like the criteria has been meet.

And you don't need the ransom part, if you grab someone of the streets and move them 10 miles from that location and let them you go, you are still guilty of kidnapping. As that person did not give you consent to be moved.

__________________
On the continent of wild endeavour in the mountains of solace and solitude there stood the citadel of the time lords, the oldest and most mighty race in the universe looking down on the galaxies below sworn never to interfere only to watch.

Generally, kidnapping occurs when a person, without lawful authority, physically asports (i.e., moves) another person without that other person's consent, with the intent to use the abduction in connection with some other nefarious objective. Under the Model Penal Code (a set of exemplary criminal rules fashioned by the American Law Institute), kidnapping occurs when any person is unlawfully and non-consensually asported and held for certain purposes. These purposes include gaining a ransom or reward; facilitating the commission of a felony or a flight after the commission of a felony; terrorizing or inflicting bodily injury on the victim or a third person; and interfering with a governmental or political function (Model Penal Code § 212.1).

So explain to me how it isn't kidnapping?

Well in the UK

Kidnapping is an offence created by judges in the seventeenth century. The current definition is that kidnapping is an attack on or infringement of personal liberty, consisting of the taking or carrying away of one person by another, by force or fraud, without the consent of the person taken or carried away, and without lawful excuse.

attack on or infringement of personal liberty, consisting of the taking or carrying away of one person by another

They were intending to carry the Ba'ku away.

by force or fraud

They were going to use a holoship to make them think they were still on their planet, sounds like fraud to me.

without the consent of the person taken or carried away

The Ba'ku weren't asked if they minded being moved

and without lawful excuse

Whist the planet might be within Federation space, it was settled before the Federation was founded and the Ba'ku weren't informed so they could seek redress through legal means.

Looks like the criteria has been meet.

And you don't need the ransom part, if you grab someone of the streets and move them 10 miles from that location and let them you go, you are still guilty of kidnapping. As that person did not give you consent to be moved.

well, the holoship was a stupid plan, like many parts of the movie. I don't really want to be put in the position of defending it as a good idea.

As I've written before in these threads, the Son'a screwed themselves by trying to be TOO clever and hiding the nature of their relationship with the Baku.

Had they approached Dougherty with the truth, the Federation could have openly asked the Baku to leave, either using the argument that it's a Federation planet, OR have the Son'a come in and remove the Baku themselves since the Federation would have regarded it as an "internal conflict."

Bottom line: the Baku-Son'a "twist" was a poorly thought out one that added MORE problems(how did the Baku win? Why didn't the Son'a return decades later and conquer? etc.) to an already deeply flawed story.

Kidnapping is an offence created by judges in the seventeenth century. The current definition is that kidnapping is an attack on or infringement of personal liberty, consisting of the taking or carrying away of one person by another, by force or fraud, without the consent of the person taken or carried away, and without lawful excuse.

attack on or infringement of personal liberty, consisting of the taking or carrying away of one person by another

They were intending to carry the Ba'ku away.

by force or fraud

They were going to use a holoship to make them think they were still on their planet, sounds like fraud to me.

without the consent of the person taken or carried away

The Ba'ku weren't asked if they minded being moved

and without lawful excuse

Whist the planet might be within Federation space, it was settled before the Federation was founded and the Ba'ku weren't informed so they could seek redress through legal means.

Looks like the criteria has been meet.

And you don't need the ransom part, if you grab someone of the streets and move them 10 miles from that location and let them you go, you are still guilty of kidnapping. As that person did not give you consent to be moved.

well, the holoship was a stupid plan, like many parts of the movie. I don't really want to be put in the position of defending it as a good idea.

As I've written before in these threads, the Son'a screwed themselves by trying to be TOO clever and hiding the nature of their relationship with the Baku.

Had they approached Dougherty with the truth, the Federation could have openly asked the Baku to leave, either using the argument that it's a Federation planet, OR have the Son'a come in and remove the Baku themselves since the Federation would have regarded it as an "internal conflict."

Bottom line: the Baku-Son'a "twist" was a poorly thought out one that added MORE problems(how did the Baku win? Why didn't the Son'a return decades later and conquer? etc.) to an already deeply flawed story.

Not to mention the Federation going from extremely open society that practically treat the Prime Directive like religious dogma to tossing the PD out the window and make major policy decisions in secret (Ru'afo's rant and the secrecy of everything make it sound like nobody outside the council, Dougherty and his people, and the Son'a know what's is going on over there) and (given Dougherty's sharing the benefits of the mission with all the people of the federation line) are probably going to hoard the partials for themselves and the Son'a and tell the rest of the galaxy to suck it.

"Well, when the President does it, that means that it is not illegal."

So just because someone/thing sings off on something, doesn't automatically make it legal.

__________________
On the continent of wild endeavour in the mountains of solace and solitude there stood the citadel of the time lords, the oldest and most mighty race in the universe looking down on the galaxies below sworn never to interfere only to watch.