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That might be because divine casters are no longer healing pugs/raids. Whereas healing only builds are okay with double healing duty and no time or opportunity to use spells that are 40% as effective as their casting peers.

Arcane casters are not their casting peers; divine casters are their casting peers. Otherwise they should be looking at less hit points, less personal melee buffs, restrictions on armor (which was buffed for most), and restrictions on healing beyond self healing.

Divine offensive spells were not very effective to begin with. Implosion, blade barrier, divine punishment were pretty much it; couple of instant death spells.

Implosion has more opportunity for higher DCs and the potential is there for a buff in that sense.

Other spells look like they were impacted in the exact same way arcane spells were; the changes to meta stacking additively.

Arcane casters are not their casting peers; divine casters are their casting peers. Otherwise they should be looking at less hit points, less personal melee buffs, restrictions on armor (which was buffed for most), and restrictions on healing beyond self healing.

Divine offensive spells were not very effective to begin with. Implosion, blade barrier, divine punishment were pretty much it; couple of instant death spells.

Implosion has more opportunity for higher DCs and the potential is there for a buff in that sense.

Other spells look like they were impacted in the exact same way arcane spells were; the changes to meta stacking additively.

I sincerely hope that with what you have stated as PnP experience you are not suggesting that casters within the divine sphere are not casters. Count up the missing spells for divine casters in this game, and consider that one would need likely 3wiz/3fvs past lives for adequate spell pen for implosion/destruction/slay living etc. This does not even address the missing spells issue that has persisted for so long. And you can't possibly be suggesting that there wasn't a net loss of great proportion when considering the changes to metas. That was the only method to get numbers that were competitive, though hardly sp efficient.

The problem with your statement also lies in the fact that arcanes get enhancement lines, whereas other classes impacted do not. So, you see cases where it can be said that my arcane didn't lose much considering the changes.

Also, I'd disagree with your assertion that the spells you listed were, "... pretty much it..." I've used and will continue to use many more of them when they are situationally better.

The damage and effectiveness of divine spells were scaled back with caster level increase. Where divine casters were roughly 40% behind they are significantly moreso due to the core changes. Lack of available options that bring positive outcomes in casting reinforces the idea that the only thing divine casters should be doing is healing. Which, as I've mentioned before, is fine if that's all one built their character for. For those that have built to be able to do more, there are significant hurdles placed by the xpac.

So my Wizard, who is in a Sorc life atm, at level 16 does on average 700-900 damage with his Nilac's Ray sla. My epic leveled FvS, 4 heroic levels/3 epic levels ahead does 113-202 with his sla on average. That's one hell of a difference. Certainly more than 40% behind from what I've seen.

Now I can choose whether or not I wish to bring that kind of suboptimal performance into a party. Because I don't play my FvS to merely provide healing.

I'm not having any particular trouble healing groups, and any trouble healing myself is mostly due to bugged WF healers friend, but I just want to understand the logic of:

It is OK to let melee damage go through the roof. It is OK to let arcanes damage go through the roof.

Divines healing MUST stay the same as it was before xpac.

Clearly they didn't concern themselves with the first 2, why do divines get special treatment?

We might have different ideas of massive buffs. Melee needed buffs but divine casters have access to those destinies. +30 spells power and a chance for an additional effect in draconic isn't a massive buff in my opinion.

I think WF could use some specific attention beyond the healers friend issue and have hopes for the new enhancement system for them. Hopefully.

Originally Posted by taurean430

I sincerely hope that with what you have stated as PnP experience you are not suggesting that casters within the divine sphere are not casters. Count up the missing spells for divine casters in this game, and consider that one would need likely 3wiz/3fvs past lives for adequate spell pen for implosion/destruction/slay living etc. This does not even address the missing spells issue that has persisted for so long. And you can't possibly be suggesting that there wasn't a net loss of great proportion when considering the changes to metas. That was the only method to get numbers that were competitive, though hardly sp efficient.

The problem with your statement also lies in the fact that arcanes get enhancement lines, whereas other classes impacted do not. So, you see cases where it can be said that my arcane didn't lose much considering the changes.

Also, I'd disagree with your assertion that the spells you listed were, "... pretty much it..." I've used and will continue to use many more of them when they are situationally better.

The damage and effectiveness of divine spells were scaled back with caster level increase. Where divine casters were roughly 40% behind they are significantly moreso due to the core changes. Lack of available options that bring positive outcomes in casting reinforces the idea that the only thing divine casters should be doing is healing. Which, as I've mentioned before, is fine if that's all one built their character for. For those that have built to be able to do more, there are significant hurdles placed by the xpac.

So my Wizard, who is in a Sorc life atm, at level 16 does on average 700-900 damage with his Nilac's Ray sla. My epic leveled FvS, 4 heroic levels/3 epic levels ahead does 113-202 with his sla on average. That's one hell of a difference. Certainly more than 40% behind from what I've seen.

Now I can choose whether or not I wish to bring that kind of suboptimal performance into a party. Because I don't play my FvS to merely provide healing.

I am not suggesting they are not casters. I am stating they have a lot of their strength in versatility with more melee, dealing with status effects, and healing on top of some offensive spells while the existing spells in DDO are not exactly great spells for the most part.

Divine casters should be seeing more of their martial side developed, increased spell lists, and improvements to divine might; this does not mean they need to have similar offensive potential to arcane casters, imo.

As far as spell damage comparisons go this is what I see. Some is not tested due to my own TR'ing but the spell power items are specified for consistency using a +90 item, +15 implement, empower spell, maximize spell; for 330 spell power before enhancements.

Sorc using niac's with frost V (+100 spell power) at caster level 8 with 3 bonuses to maximum level places the average of 64 up to 339.2 on average. If you are seeing much higher numbers either the gear is off or something else is bugged and you are getting too much damage.

Fvs using capstone searing light with smiting IV (+80 spell power) is at caster level 5 so 410 instead of 430 spell power takes the average damage of 32.5 (50 vs undead) up to 167.75 (255 vs undead), which does look like it fits into what you are seeing.

Now that looks higher but I would also take into consideration that:

1) Sorc paid more for the ability in the first place in his enhancements and feat requirements

2) Sorc pays a small amount of SP to active the SLA vs the free FvS capstone SLA

3) Sorc can add 15% vulnerability for another SP cost that has a longer cooldown than duration and has the added opportunity cost of taking the action as opposed to the light vulnerability that stacks up to 50% just by getting hit, since we've added PrE for the sorc we'll add the PrE for the FvS.

4) A lot more creatures resist or are immune to cold than light

5) And finally, niac's has a save for no damage while searing light has no save.

Those put the number a bit more comparable in my mind.

I would like to point out that you are comparing the highest damage savant to the favored soul instead of other arcane choices.

Change that SLA from niac's to shocking grasp and we're at a base average of 40 damage out to 212 average but give up range for the no save while bringing he numbers close. Searing does more damage vs undead.

Change that SLA from sorc to wizard and we're looking at magic missile, arcane bolt, or arcane blast.

Base damage on magic missile is 17.5 * 430 spell power for 92.75 average damage. We have range, single target, no save like searing light; but less damage.

Arcane bolt and arcane blast are also hit by 50% spell power and are not affected by maximize or empower (last I checked) so drop to 102 spell power. Base average 70 damage at 20th level gets us to 141.4 average damage with a reflex save for half.

I'm half asleep so might have missed something but the FvS capstone seems to be competitive enough with with arcane SLA's if that is important to you.

Originally Posted by ShadowFlash

Hah! obviously not familiar with the 2 monk splash common for clerics, either caster or melee...

robes only for casters to remain centered

light armor for non-handwrap melee

No armor "buff" here

ShadowFlash

These still received a buff for the most part. The added dodge check is still available with gear in a small amount without needing to add feats, and with inspire heroics. They were also still getting hit 95% of the time in epics which has changed, high WIS or not.

Moving to the new armor types gives a pretty big bonus to AC without the need for monk WIS bonus.

These still received a buff for the most part. The added dodge check is still available with gear in a small amount without needing to add feats, and with inspire heroics. They were also still getting hit 95% of the time in epics which has changed, high WIS or not.

Moving to the new armor types gives a pretty big bonus to AC without the need for monk WIS bonus.

For the most part AC was a buff in my opinion.

ummm...you can't count inspire heroics as a clonk "buff" to AC...sure it's nice, but that applys to everyone also. Dodge bonus without the feats or the monk buffs (only 2-3 levels) and slot contention for caster stuff is really not an option at all. Melee monk splashes don't even have the high WIS to put to AC either. I didn't have a problem with the AC changes affecting clonks, because as you said, they got hit 95% of the time anyhow UNTIL dev comments on damage mitigation of toons under the new system is being used as a reference for balancing healing. In this regard, clonks got the ole' double-whammy.

Sadmamma

I am not a big forum poster, but I felt the need to bemoan these changes. Before the update, I was running mammadrow with empower, quicken, and no other metas as the return for the sp wasn't worth it. I was fully heal spec'd with a 42 wis, around 500hp, 12 turns, and appropriate gear. I was greatly overhealing everyone, but healing was easy and I had time to cast offensively, buff the party, read/listen to the quest dialog, etc. I used all heals/cures and call using any of my heal/cure spells healing for the purposes of this post. After the update, I dumped my epic mask of comedy, my armor, my necklace, my ToD ring with +3(2,1) exceptional wisdom, and most of my other gear. I picked up the cleric set, a +3 wis planar focus, a 12% healing lore/108 devotion item (also a 108 radiance, etc...,) angel ED that took me to 54 wis, and you get the picture. I am now underhealing other players and have to cast 3-4x as often to keep heals up enough to keep the party from dying after armor rend, poison, holds, and major enemy damage. I no longer have time to cast and I no longer have time to read the funny bits of quest dialog.

The report bug screen is broken so I can't say how frustrated I am that my healing actually heals (helps) undead in several epic elite quests and I can't scream to the heavens that I heal/cure (damage) undead for around 250 on a non-crit on non-elite. And my DP, one of the few things I maximize, is now hitting so low that it is worthless on most content.

I swapped over to my low level cleric, mammabear, and found the same problems. Keeping pugs alive prevents me from doing anything beyond keeping the pug alive--including laughing at the npcs.
This makes mamma sad and I don't want to quest anymore. So...I'm avoiding pugs entirely and sticking with known people only or else working on Southrn's 7th life as a barb where my playing experience is still fun. Since I used to lead newbie friendly runs (yes I'd take your 198 hp sorc) where I taught people how to run things like shroud and gave out advice on how to up hp or increase arcane DCs without rerolling this makes me a very sad mamma indeed.

I thought my heals on my cleric got nerfed hard, even harder than my fvs, but post patch today i think i found my answer.

Epic Sacred Helm/Band set just plain doesnt work! It doesnt add the claimed +90 to healing spell power at all! My spell power in my character sheet remains unmoved when i equip it/unequip it and my heals dont change values.

I thought my heals on my cleric got nerfed hard, even harder than my fvs, but post patch today i think i found my answer.

Epic Sacred Helm/Band set just plain doesnt work! It doesnt add the claimed +90 to healing spell power at all! My spell power in my character sheet remains unmoved when i equip it/unequip it and my heals dont change values.

9. With the massive hp inflation from expansion, heal (not mass heal) is relatively less powerful (hp incrased by 20-50% while heal is the same as before). While you could before refill someone in one cast, it is no longer possible. To compensate people need to slot more healing amp... But we know that some people already don't carry some needed items (such as fortification), is it really wise to add a new must have?

Heal still increases as you get into the expansion pack and get better gear. Keep in mind that it’s not all about what tools the healer has but what tools the players taking damage have. With the AC changes we expect players in the highest level/difficulty content to take fewer hits than they did previously.

Heal still increases as you get into the expansion pack and get better gear.

It is Turbines' game, so you devs can break it if thats what you prefer to do;

but know this: developer "preference" to stealth nerf divine caster output by 50% was a *bad* idea, and it is *not* what the *PLAYERS* wanted, and since you devs cannot (or will not) recognize that, then clearly there is nothing more to discuss, so "we" are done here.

It is Turbines' game, so you devs can break it if thats what you prefer to do;

but know this: developer "preference" to stealth nerf divine caster output by 50% was a *bad* idea, and it is *not* what the *PLAYERS* wanted, and since you devs cannot (or will not) recognize that, then clearly there is nothing more to discuss, so "we" are done here.

So much for player input/feedback.

+1 to this I may not be the best healer but I never had major and constint complaints to my healing till after the expation. All so If you devolpers could look at how much people are spend see that I have not bought 1 tp snice the beta. I have 3 main that I was working on a clonk a atry and a pally. the clonk has has ac nerfed healing nerfed he cant mele and heal as I just get sick of al the swaping. the arty is a wf and now he is getting another nerf on top of what you did to wf already, please it is a game stop making it un fun to play. Also why is a cleric/ monk allways pulling random sh!t that bost everything but what he uses. I have it set to be classed based but ice and acid boost seem to be the most common pull this makes to that the theroy of good loat pointless anf thurd stop saying everything is fine as not every one is a power gamer if this push keeps going why would any causl gamers stay and I came for a D&D exprince not WOW.

Concerning Rune Arms

Would it be too difficult to add an enhancement line that gives universal spellpower to all rune arms? Or possibly adding rune arm-only spellpower bonuses to the enhancement lines that augment rune arms already? That way rune arm power could be controlled to your liking, Madfloyd. Furthermore, a rune arm-only spellpower enhancement line would make it practical to switch rune arms in the midst of combat, which is not feasible right now, as rune arm spellpower is currently amplified by generic spellpower enhancements.

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