[In English] Paris, August 19, 1946, at the Offices of the American Joint Distribution Committee. The interviewee is Mr. Friedrich SchlÃfrig, 71 years old. He is here with his wife planning to go to South Africa and is expecting at this moment a telephone call from Lisbon for clearance on the ship. He graciously agreed to be interviewed.

. . . SchlÃfrig continues. We had lunch together and Mr. SchlÃfrig gave me some . . . . hm, some more of his background. As he said before he is an engineer, architect, was in Government Service, was retired. He had in the middle '30s a pension amounting to about six hundred marks, or about one thousand schillings; possibly the equivalent of about two hundred or two hundred fifty American dollars, on which he could live well. His, hm, besides being an engineerâfrom his retirement he returned to an old hobby . . . . And that is the construction of violins and a theoretical study of acoustics of wooden instruments in general. As a matter of fact, he intends . . . he intends in Africa to do something in that line.

[In German] Just speak in this direction, so the light does not disappear, no?

Friedrich Schlaefrig

Yes, I understand.

David Boder

[unintelligible]

David Boder

[In English] Paris, August 1946, at the offices of the American Joint Distribution Committee. The interviewee is Mr. Friedrich Schlaefrig, 71 years old. He is here with his wife planning to go to South Africa, and is expecting at this moment a telephone call from Lisbon for clearance on the ship. He graciously agreed to be interviewed.

David Boder

[In German]. And so, Mr. Schlaefrig . . .

Friedrich Schlaefrig

[In English] May I speak English too?

David Boder

[In English] Oh! He says he may speak English . . .

David Boder

[In German] . . . but it goes better in German, is that not so? Let us better do that. [Note: Many DPs had some English lessons at school, many have studied or improved their English after liberation. They are very proud of their accomplishments and insist on speaking English. However, the results were, in most cases, highly unsatisfactory, since the effort and search for words would result as a rule in curtailment, straining, and oversimplification of content. However, to please them, one had to permit at times that at least portions of an interview proceed in English. See story of Max Feuer, Microcards Nos. 28, 29, Second Series 1953, pp. 787-954. âD.P.B.]

David Boder

And so, Mr. Schlaefrig will you give us your full name and where were you born? . . . Yes.

Friedrich Schlaefrig

My name is Friedrich Schlaefrig and I was born in Mistelbach in Lower Austria.

David Boder

How old are you now, Mr. Schlaefrig?

Friedrich Schlaefrig

I am now in my seventy-second year?

David Boder

What is your profession?

Friedrich Schlaefrig

I am an architect by profession and was a 'Ministerial Counsellor' in the Austrian Railroad Ministry.

David Boder

When were you a 'Ministerial Counsellor', in . . . ?

Friedrich Schlaefrig

I was [that] . . . until 1933.

David Boder

Yes . . . Now then, Mr. Schlaefrig, will you tell us then . . . don't fear the details. It is better for us that we have a small sector of your story with all the details, than to have the whole story in general terms. And then, you still have time, we could possibly get together in the afternoon . . .

Friedrich Schlaefrig

Oh yes!, I am in the afternoon . . .

David Boder

I should like possibly to talk with your wife.

Friedrich Schlaefrig

Yes.

David Boder

Now then, where were you when the war started and how were things with you?

Friedrich Schlaefrig

When the war started we lived in Vienna. I was . . . already before the war started, I got into an unpleasant situation, because I was at the Hitler invasion of Austria in March of 1938, the president of the B'nai B'rith Lodge.

David Boder

Oh! Now, please wait, Mr. Schlaefrig. Let us take it then chronologically. Let us count for you the beginning of the war from the time when the Nazis had taken the upper hand in Austria, the Anschluss, etc. That we will call for you, the time of the war.

Friedrich Schlaefrig

All together . . .

David Boder

Yes.

Friedrich Schlaefrig

Yes.

David Boder

Yes. Now then, you were . . .

Friedrich Schlaefrig

I was at that time . . . I was in the year 1938 elected for the second time, president of the lodge 'Eintracht'.

. . . and then . . . the Jews of Austria, of course, have chosen the side of their Chancellor, of Schuschnik, because the Nazi propaganda threatened first of all the Jews of Austria.

David Boder

Yes.

Friedrich Schlaefrig

It is obvious that everything was being done in order to . . . preserve an independent Austria and to support the government to the extent of our strength. That had led to the circumstance, that, when Schuschnik was planning in Austria a plebescite on the question of the Anschluss with Germany, this plebescite, this decision of the people, which of course had to be prepared, had to be prepared financially as well, was supported [also] with the resources of the B'nai B'rith and other Jewish resources. I, personally, participated in these things and I did not know, because I did not happen to read these particular newspapers, that on the evening of the Hitler Invasion, my name . . .

David Boder

Yes.

Friedrich Schlaefrig

. . . together with other names as one, let us say, of the prominent Jews, was given as one who supported the government of Hitler [corrects himself] the government of Schuschnik; that my activities were described in a long newspaper article, and so I was already politically delivered [pause]

David Boder

Now will you then continue.

Friedrich Schlaefrig

As a consequence of this, the night following that evening . . . that that night I was arrested, and together with a large number of prominent B'nai B'rith [members] was submitted to a political . . . political interrogation, to a night interrogation. [We were accused] of connection with communist parties, first of all with Moscow . . .

David Boder

[not clear]

Friedrich Schlaefrig

. . . [three words not clear] we were accused of that . . .

David Boder

Was it true?

Friedrich Schlaefrig

. . . but not even remotely . . . they searched for our correspondence with Moscow, they searched all our archives, they incessantly inquired about our connections with New York, with the 'Wise o Zion,' and . . .

David Boder

Yes! We call them in English the 'Elders of Zion'.

Friedrich Schlaefrig

Yes!

David Boder

Yes . . .

Friedrich Schlaefrig

. . . we were after this interrogation, which lasted until about 3 o'clock in the morning, transferred to the police jail . . .

David Boder

How did they treat you?

Friedrich Schlaefrig

Of course, there was no lack of personal, of physical mistreatments . . .

David Boder

Yes . . .

Friedrich Schlaefrig

We were beaten with those . . . with rubber truncheons.

David Boder

You personally, too?

Friedrich Schlaefrig

I, personally, too. We were thrown into those closed box-carriages [patrol wagons] like cattle, and driven to the police jail, where we . . . the night . . . spent the night. On the following morning, we were distributed in the . . . in the separate rooms, and placed like common offenders. In one of the cells . . . I personally was placed with six other arrested with me, in to a cell for serious criminals . . . which measured about three by three meters.

David Boder

Where was you wife?

Friedrich Schlaefrig

My wife remained home.

David Boder

Yes . . .

Friedrich Schlaefrig

. . . remained comparatively unmolested during the time. All this time . . . for these weeks were full of night interrogations, we were regularly called for with that Green Henry [synonymous apparently with the 'Black Maria'âthe slang designation for a patrol wagon] with that closed box-carriage. We were taken to the main police station for night interrogations and in the morning we were returned home . . . to jail.

David Boder

Mr. Schlaefrig, how old were you then?

Friedrich Schlaefrig

I was at that time . . . 63 years old.

David Boder

Yes. Now then . . . [a pause] and so you were interrogated every night. How long did that last?

Friedrich Schlaefrig

That has . . . that has lasted two to three weeks . . . I shouldn't say every night . . . but a large part . . . a large part of the nights were spent in night interrogations.

David Boder

Now, Mr. Schlaefrig, will you reproduce for us one of such interrogations as near as possible. What were you questioned about? What did you answer and so forth?

Friedrich Schlaefrig

The questions are to a large extent pointless, because, because a large . . . a large part of the questions were limited to personal viewpoints. Attempts were made to establish the political orientation of the individual, whether he was not in some way, in opposition, in opposition . . . in order to establish that the B'nai B'rith [?] represents a political, a communistic, or some other kind . . .

David Boder

American?

Friedrich Schlaefrig

. . . of organization. Yes, American. At any rate, something opposing the present ruling regime, so that these people could be rendered politically or possibly even physically, harmless. They did not succeed from a single one of the apprehended belonging to the circles of the B'nai B'rith to extract any confirmation of these suspicions or accusations. They were compelled after a 'shorter or longer' time to release us. Of course was the unburdening [correction] the release . . . [Footnote 1: Here we have a definite Freudian slip of the tongue. In German the difference between "unburdening" and "releasing" consists only in one single letter in the middle of the word: "entlastung," and "entlassung." âD.P.B.]

David Boder

Could you engage lawyers?

Friedrich Schlaefrig

My wife had endeavored to engage not a Jewish . . . a non-Jewish counsel. And that was successful. And a Nazi lawyer had succeeded, so that by the end of March, I was released from the arrest.

David Boder

So you were held from . . . when?

Friedrich Schlaefrig

I think, all together, it lasted from two to three weeks.

David Boder

Yes.

Friedrich Schlaefrig

By the end of March, at the beginning of April . . .

David Boder

Yes . . .

Friedrich Schlaefrig

. . . I was home again.

David Boder

Now . . .

Friedrich Schlaefrig

These . . . the questioned . . . it was impossible . . . it was impossible against a single one of us to produce any positive . . . positive accusations. None were founded. We were then gradually released to go home. This time of [our] being home was, of course, hardly bearable, because one was not safe for a single night against searches.

David Boder

Have you any children, Mr. Schlaefrig?

Friedrich Schlaefrig

Yes. I have a son who, at that time, was already in South Africa.

David Boder

Oh. So you now are going to your son.

Friedrich Schlaefrig

I am going to my son. He worked already in '36 in South Africa as an architect.

David Boder

As an architect?

Friedrich Schlaefrig

Yes.

David Boder

Did he graduate in Vienna?

Friedrich Schlaefrig

He studied in Vienna, graduated, and has emigrated in '36 to South Africa.

David Boder

That is your only child?

Friedrich Schlaefrig

That is my son. My daughter lives presently in Canada.

David Boder

So . . .

Friedrich Schlaefrig

At that time she was still with us in Vienna. She preferred then to leave Vienna and went as a domestic servant to England, where she was taken as a domestic into the home of an English baronet, . . . was readily engaged by the family of an English baronet . . .

David Boder

So, they were able to bring people over who worked as domestics . . . ?

Friedrich Schlaefrig

The English have fired the Aryan domestics from Germany and Austria[Footnote 2: This appears to have been first of all a security requirement, in view of the growing international tension.] and have frequently engaged Jewish . . .

David Boder

Servants . . .

Friedrich Schlaefrig

Jewish ser . . . 'manpower', first of all girls from Jewish homes, and accepted them in their households.

David Boder

Oh. Now, what kind of education did your daughter possess?

Friedrich Schlaefrig

My daughter was . . . she had graduated from a Middle School[Gymnasium] in Arts.

David Boder

Yes, and she went as . . .

Friedrich Schlaefrig

She went as [he says it in English] 'parlor maid'.

David Boder

'Parlor . . . parlor . . . ' Where is she now?

Friedrich Schlaefrig

She is now married in Canada, and is contemplating . . . I hope it will be possible in a short time, to live with us together in South Africa in Johannesburg.

David Boder

Aha! I shall later give you some regards to be transmitted to Johannesburg.

Friedrich Schlaefrig

With pleasure!

David Boder

Now then. Have you seen here Dr. Weiler [?], the Rabbi from Johannesburg?

Friedrich Schlaefrig

No . . .

David Boder

He is here in the city.

Friedrich Schlaefrig

So!

David Boder

You ought to see him if he is still here.

Friedrich Schlaefrig

Yes.

David Boder

Possibly if you come with me to my hotel afterwards, when we are through . . .

Friedrich Schlaefrig

Yes.

David Boder

And you may then . . . he is there a very big man, and he happens to be here, precisely here . . .

Friedrich Schlaefrig

Yes.

David Boder

He could probably make use of you there.

Friedrich Schlaefrig

Well . . .

David Boder

Now, you see. Now then, what happened then? You had returned home, there were searches.

Friedrich Schlaefrig

there were many kind of searches . . .

David Boder

What did they want?

Friedrich Schlaefrig

They searched for arms, and under the pretext of searching for arms, they ransacked everything that could have looked like concealed objects of value. Valuables were simply taken away, they were seized under assurance that these things could at anytime be reclaimed from the Gestapo. But in fact, it happened that a great deal of the jewelry, of every valuable, simply disappeared. It simply was taken; that in apartments where the owners failed to show voluntarily their possessions, everything was searched, all the leather . . . leather furniture coverings were cut, the upholstery searched in order to establish whether there were not concealed anywhere jewelry, pearls, diamonds, or valuables.

David Boder

Nu . . .

Friedrich Schlaefrig

That happened in my house, to other parties [tenants?], while with me personally they contented themselves to take with them whatever they found in the strong-box, and some other valuables.

David Boder

Yes . . .

Friedrich Schlaefrig

This was a frightful time because one never knew when one would be arrested. One was repeatedly arrested. It happened to me three times, that I was arrested. However, twice I was released again in the same manner, and have lived in Vienna from the year nineteen hundred and . . . from the [advent] of Hitler, 1938, up to September, 1941. However, I was unable to retain my apartment. We were compelled to sell our buildings. In one of my buildings I had my apartment, and I had, of course, to give that up too. We were compelled to 'retract' into furnished rooms, more crowded and more crowded. During these . . . during these three years I moved five times.

David Boder

Did they pay for the buildings which you were compelled to sell?

Friedrich Schlaefrig

The buildings were paid with a 'fraction', about from a fourth to a fifth part of their real value.

David Boder

Who purchased them?

Friedrich Schlaefrig

These buildings were purchased by people who had to have from the party a . . .

David Boder

A certificate . . . ?

Friedrich Schlaefrig

. . . an affidavit, so to speak, that they had rendered serviced to the party, and therefore are deserving to obtain Jewish property, upon payment [?].

David Boder

Yes. Now then . . .

Friedrich Schlaefrig

So the buildings were sold. We were . . . we had prepared ourselves for the emigration to South Africa before we abandoned our apartment. Unfortunately nothing came from this emigration, since I was unable to obtain the 'permit' [word in English] for South Africa, in spite of all efforts of my son, who by that time was not yet naturalized. Also my daughter, could . . . who wanted to go to South Africa, was unable to go to South Africa,. We then tried to emigrate to Australia, and again we were unable to obtain the 'permit'. All attempts to emigrate, the attempts with the he . . . help of American lodges, to . . .

David Boder

To obtain an 'affidavit'?

Friedrich Schlaefrig

. . . to obtain and 'affidavit' for America have dragged out so long, that the conditions for emigration became impossible . . . when by the beginning of the year 1941, when the whole system of the emigration to the 'U.S.A.' was changed and a new system [established] that gave a chance only to very few to go to America, although by that time I had already an affidavit.

David Boder

How . . . ?

Friedrich Schlaefrig

We had then to attempt with the help of my relatives in America . . . I tried to get to Cuba, but also that . . . this possibility could not be realized . . . and in August of the year '41,we were informed that we have to expect our deportation . . . our evacuation from Vienna . . . within the next few weeks.

David Boder

Who informed you about that?

Friedrich Schlaefrig

The Cultural Council [Kultusgemeinde] informed me about that . . . I belonged for years to the Cultural Council of Vienna as an elected member, and had there my acquaintances. They then informed me that in the next few weeks we shall be deported . . .

David Boder

Was it their duty, or they simply let you know?

Friedrich Schlaefrig

No . . . I got to know . . .

David Boder

Yes . . .

Friedrich Schlaefrig

. . . you see, that it hardly will be possible for me longer in Vienna; I was told that all Jews will be deported from Vienna, which proved to be . . .

David Boder

False . . .

Friedrich Schlaefrig

. . . false. However, we had to count on it, and indeed, we [were sent away] with a transport on the 8th of September, '41; no '42; excuse me, '42 . . .

David Boder

Yes.

Friedrich Schlaefrig

All the '41 dates are '42 . . .

David Boder

We shall correct thatâ'41 date is '42.

Friedrich Schlaefrig

Yes.

David Boder

Now, tell me, what had the Cultural Council to do with the deportation?

Friedrich Schlaefrig

The Cultural Council had taken unto itself to select [the word is not clear, could also mean find those individually selected by the Gestapo. The difference in terms is, of course, tremendousâthe word in German sounds like auszuweben] the people and get them ready for transport.

David Boder

Hm . . .

Friedrich Schlaefrig

It was thought, I don't know whether that was correct, it was thought that if the Jews did it themselves, it will proceed in a more 'humane' form.

David Boder

Yes . . .

Friedrich Schlaefrig

Otherwise the Gestapo, themselves, would do it.

David Boder

Yes.

Friedrich Schlaefrig

But it appeared that the Gestapo was not eager to undertake this matter as its function, and had found it more comfortable to press in the foreground the Jewish . . . the Jewish institutions, and to let the Jews make these selections. In fact, the Cultural Council was compelled to devote its whole personnel to these selections.

David Boder

Who was the director of the Cultural Council?

Friedrich Schlaefrig

That was Loewenherz . . .

David Boder

Dr. Loewenherz?

Friedrich Schlaefrig

Dr. Loewenherz . . . Joseph Loewenherz.

David Boder

Joseph Loewenherz?

Friedrich Schlaefrig

Yes. The Cultural Council had its whole . . .

David Boder

Where was Dr. Friedman?

Friedrich Schlaefrig

Dr. Friedman was in Vienna, and Stricker was also in Vienna.

David Boder

Where?

Friedrich Schlaefrig

Both . . . in Vienna. For a time they were imprisoned; were afterwards set free, but were under continuous surveillance by the Gestapo and were obliged weekly to present themselves.

David Boder

Present themselves. What was the other name, Friedman and . . . ?

Friedrich Schlaefrig

Friedman and Stricker.

David Boder

Stricker . . .

Friedrich Schlaefrig

Stricker, the [one word not clear] one time 'National Council' . . .

David Boder

Yes . . .

Friedrich Schlaefrig

. . . and representatives of the Cultural Council. Stricker and Friedman, both were free, had an apartment, a rather nice apartment in the city, where I visited them, but they were under police surveillance. In the Cultural Council the leading people were Loewenherz, and at the end especially, Dr. Murmerstein [?].

David Boder

Murmerstein [?].

Friedrich Schlaefrig

Murmerstein, the one time Head Rabbi [?] of the Cultural Council, and who played in Theresienstadt a hardly laudable role, and as I have heard, was by the Russian and Czech courts in Prague, sentenced . . .

David Boder

was sentenced . . .

Friedrich Schlaefrig

. . . to eighteen years imprisonment.

David Boder

Now then . . .

Friedrich Schlaefrig

They . . . The Cultural Council as such, then organized it . . . the service of the expulsion, and specifically with its own personnel. All the employees of the Cultural Council also had to lend themselvesâwith some exceptions most of them did so. I regret to have to say thatâthey did it because in this mannerânow how should I say it -

David Boder

their own person . . . ?

Friedrich Schlaefrig

. . . they believed their own person protected. And indeed they were protected until nearly the last momentâuntil the winter of '42-'43.

David Boder

Yes . . . And so you were informed that the deportation was coming. What did you do then . . . ?

Friedrich Schlaefrig

. . . was coming . . . We did not do much . . . we did not possess much anymore. We had become more and more poor through the various instances of moving [from apartment to apartment]; we packed the most indispensables in our trunks, and made ready for the voyage, and indeed we were sent off on the 7th or 8th of September, with a transport from Vienna to Theresienstadt. There were . . .

David Boder

Now, how did they come? How did they inform you? What actually happened? I want to get at the human side of the events. How were you informed about it?

Friedrich Schlaefrig

This . . . this transport proceeded in a comparatively humane manner, because I voluntarily entered in an agreement [??] . . .

David Boder

Aha . . .

Friedrich Schlaefrig

I was already once before 'selected', . . .

David Boder

Yes . . .

Friedrich Schlaefrig

Already before arrangements were made, and in a manner customary in Vienna. Our house would be 'occupied' [in a police or military sense] by the employees of the Deportation Service of the Cultural Council.

David Boder

Yes . . .

Friedrich Schlaefrig

The house would be blocked off . . .

David Boder

Yes . . .

Friedrich Schlaefrig

. . . one of these 'deporters' would be assigned to each floor.

David Boder

Yes . . .

Friedrich Schlaefrig

He then [would take charge] of the people in the separate apartments . . . the apartments were thickly populated, because in each room lived two, often three or four persons; each family had one room . . .

David Boder

Yes . . .

Friedrich Schlaefrig

So that in one apartment of four to five rooms, lived twenty . . . twenty persons.

David Boder

Yes . . .

Friedrich Schlaefrig

All these people were then assembled in one room . . .

David Boder

. . . the people of the Cultural Council?

Friedrich Schlaefrig

. . . by means of the people of the Cultural Council, who had one functionary [deputy] on each floor.

David Boder

One representative?

Friedrich Schlaefrig

. . . One . . . Yes. And he made them wait until the arrival of a functionary of the Gestapo.

David Boder

You mean an 'employee'?

Friedrich Schlaefrig

Not an 'employee', a 'Gestapo' . . .

David Boder

. . . well

Friedrich Schlaefrig

. . . person, . . .

David Boder

Yes . . .

Friedrich Schlaefrig

. . . a functionary of the Gestapo, some platoon leader, or Strom-leader, or whatever else he was.

David Boder

Yes . . .

Friedrich Schlaefrig

. . . he then would go through the whole building from bottom to the top, would look over each and everyone, with reference [to] . . . and would decide whether the particular person was to be deported or remain here.

David Boder

Aha . . .

Friedrich Schlaefrig

On what basis such a decision was madeâI don't know. In fact, it was that this Gestapo . . . this Gestapo.functionary would decide who was to pack immediately . . .

David Boder

Yes . . .

Friedrich Schlaefrig

. . . and who could remain in the apartment.

David Boder

Yes . . .

Friedrich Schlaefrig

The people of whom it was decided that they had to pack, went to it immediately, and with the help of the functionaries of the Cultural Council, its deportation service would proceed to get ready their effects [?] for the trip.

David Boder

Yes . . .

Friedrich Schlaefrig

They had right [were compelled], the same night, to pack up everything and usually had to be ready by 6 o'clock in the morning . . . there would come the large . . . the large vans [?], automobiles . . .

David Boder

Yes . . .

Friedrich Schlaefrig

. . . at times trailers [anhaenger] and so the people . . . were from here . . .

David Boder

'Anhaenger'âwe call them trailers . . .

Friedrich Schlaefrig

Yes . . . Yes, yes, and the people were loaded on them, with their bundles [?]

David Boder

Were they picked up from their apartments . . . ?

Friedrich Schlaefrig

Yes . . .

David Boder

. . . according to addresses?

Friedrich Schlaefrig

Yes. The people were not permitted to leave their apartments anymore. In the morning then appeared such an automobile . . .

David Boder

Yes . . .

Friedrich Schlaefrig

. . . eventually and automobile with an additional trailer.

David Boder

Yes . . .

Friedrich Schlaefrig

And the people with their bundles were loaded on them, and they were taken to the assembly station.

David Boder

Yes . . . and then?

Friedrich Schlaefrig

And at the assembly station they now had to wait until the general transport was ready, was assembled.

David Boder

Yes . . .

Friedrich Schlaefrig

The transports were usually about two thousand people strong.

David Boder

Yes . . .

Friedrich Schlaefrig

these two thousand people were assembled at the assembly station. These were one-time 'homes' or one-time 'schools' of the Cultural Council. And in those 'homes' the people were assembled , and from there, they were on a certain day . . . often the people had to remain eight days in these homes . . . they, of course, had no means to take proper care of themselves; it was impossible . . . they were sparsely fed . . . they were given some breakfast, they were given dinner, they were given supper . . .

David Boder

Who took care of that?

Friedrich Schlaefrig

That was taken care of by the Cultural Council through its 'feeding' units.

David Boder

Yes . . .

Friedrich Schlaefrig

And in a few days, when the organization [?] of the transports was completed, they came again with the trucks, and again they traveled with their bundles to the embarcation.

David Boder

Now tell. You say you have presented yourself voluntarily? What was that?

Friedrich Schlaefrig

Because I was . . . I said, I . . . I believe . . . I believe to have rendered such services to Jewish public life, that I, at least, have the right to demand the privilege that I should not again have to spend five, or six or eight days, in a lager in which one is exposed to vermin and lice, and has to spend the time unable to sleep. That they should do for me . . . that they should arrange it in such a way that I should not have to spend more than say, at most, one day and one night in the lager, in order not to go through too great . . . too great . . .

David Boder

hardships?

Friedrich Schlaefrig

. . . hardships . . . That was the reason, and that is why, why I was told 'You must hold yourself ready for such and such a day, present yourself on that day at such and such a 'home', and that is what I . . . did. [His voice fades at the end].

David Boder

Now . . . and so you arrived there with you wife.

Friedrich Schlaefrig

[In loud voice] We then . . .

David Boder

How much baggage did you have?

Friedrich Schlaefrig

We had . . . we had [counts recollecting] one . . . two . . . we had two large trunks, two small trunks, and two bedrolls.

David Boder

Yes . . . Now . . .

Friedrich Schlaefrig

We hoped that one would really be able to take with us this baggage. Assurances were given that it would not be taken away . . . It turned out differently. On the 8th of September we were . . . we were embarked into a train which departed from the East railroad station of Vienna, and arrived on the 9th of September Via Prague in Theresienstadt.

The arrival to Theresienstadt was . . . very sad [drop in voice]. We were disembarked and were compelled to carry ourselves, our hand-baggage . . . that is what we were able to carry. The large pieces . . . since a person could barely carry two pieces of baggage . . . so the large trunks or the bedrolls were . . . on . . .

David Boder

On a 'camion'?

Friedrich Schlaefrig

On a carriage, on a camion, later brought into the city. The railroad station is located about a half an hour's walk from Theresienstadt. It is obvious that for such a distance . . . with all these old people . . . there were predominantly old people, . . . who had to carry their heavy . . . heavy bundles . . . required for such a distance much more that half and hour. It took us more than an hour and a quarter and we did not present an especially beautiful sight . . . a sight which we in the following years repeatedly observed during our stay in Theresienstadt. Always the new ones . . . the trains that constantly arrived with newcomers, how they were heavily burdened by the weight of their baggage; carrying what they could carry . . . because . . . [few words not clear] the large part simply got lost.

David Boder

Your wife was with you?

Friedrich Schlaefrig

All of us. Together with the others we crowded in, we dragged ourselves in. And in Theresienstadt we were received by the Gestapo and the Czech Gendarme. Our baggage was searched, and everything prohibited was taken away . . .

David Boder

And what was prohibited?

Friedrich Schlaefrig

Prohibited were, of course, everything that just smelled of alcohol, brandy . . . prohibited were medicines . . . prohibited were books and newspapers . . . my wonderful English dictionary was taken away from me, as the first sacrifice [chuckle]. Everything . . . everything of that kind was taken away.

David Boder

Jewelry?

Friedrich Schlaefrig

Jewelry was, in general, not to be possessed. Jewelry and money was prohibited [?] already in Vienna. At the most, one was permitted a marriage ring.

David Boder

A wedding ring?

Friedrich Schlaefrig

A wedding ring. Otherwise one was not permitted to take any jewelry nor money. The money we surrendered already in Vienna; whatever we had in marks, in paper marks, or small change. In Theresienstadt we were unfortunately assigned to the worst armory. There were . . .

David Boder

Were there armories?

Friedrich Schlaefrig

In Theresienstadt . . . Theresienstadt is an old fortress from . . . which was constructed in the year 1770 in the time of 'Kasanusa' [?] the second . . .

David Boder

Yes . . .

Friedrich Schlaefrig

. . . and is a place . . . now we have to conclude?

David Boder

No, no, no . . . We shall continue in a few minutes, it's not the end.

Friedrich Schlaefrig

Yes.

David Boder

I still want to talk to you after lunch.

Friedrich Schlaefrig

Yes, yes. I shall be here after lunch.

Friedrich Schlaefrig

Theresienstadt is a city which owes its existence only to the military needs. It was a city which was built at the times of Maria-Theresa.

David Boder

Yes . . .

Friedrich Schlaefrig

That is, at the times of Frederick, the Second [two words not clear] and which contains about eight or ten large armories . . .

David Boder

Yes . . .

Friedrich Schlaefrig

. . . and every kind of constructions necessary for the defense of the fortress . . . and which is from the outside completely cut off by a system of water trenches, deep trenches, which could be filled with water, which could be flooded. These were trenches about eight or ten meters deep and a width of thirty meters [one word not clear]; that is, with adjoining mason walls on the outside facing the surrounding terrain. Some of these positions were artillery positions.

David Boder

Hm . . .

Friedrich Schlaefrig

On the bastion was located the heavy artillery and the trenches were aimed at . . .

David Boder

. . . the defense of the city?

Friedrich Schlaefrig

. . . to make safe the city from every kind of attack; because the trenches were flooded from the River Ager [?] and through such deep water trenches, attacks in those times could not be effective.

David Boder

Aha . . . and so you were established there.

Friedrich Schlaefrig

There were about eight large armories and the rest . . . the rest of the city in between these armories consisted mostly of one-story structures in which everything was located that the military could use in their sparetime such as restaurants, cafes, small and large stores, artisan shops, and all that was required for a garrison of about eight thousand . . . eight thousand military men [two words not clear] . . .

David Boder

Hm . . .

Friedrich Schlaefrig

The homes were completely evacuated by the Czech population. By the time when we arrived, at the beginning of September, at the beginning of September, nineteen hundred and . . .

David Boder

thirty [??] two . . .

Friedrich Schlaefrig

. . . forty-two, nineteen hundred and forty-two, the Czech population was already evacuated. Of course, the place was not in a condition to offer to some extent, to such a multitude of people, the possibility of a human way of habitation.

David Boder

What is your estimate, how great was the population of . . .

Friedrich Schlaefrig

The population?

Friedrich Schlaefrig

. . . the Jewish population of Theresienstadt was in normal times about eight thousand men of the military, and about four thousand of the civilian population.

David Boder

Yes . . .

Friedrich Schlaefrig

. . . That is twelve thousand people. From our . . . from our statistics, I know that the population of this, this Jewish Ghetto of Theresienstadt reached at one time, over sixty-five thousand people.

David Boder

Aha . . .

Friedrich Schlaefrig

. . . that is in excess of five times of the normal population. The consequences of this was that the older premises . . .

David Boder

[two words not clear]

Friedrich Schlaefrig

. . . had to be populated.

David Boder

Yes . . .

Friedrich Schlaefrig

. . . that in an average room of about twenty-five square meters, up to twelve or fifteen people had to be accomodated; which, of course, was not possible unless the wooden beds were put over each other up to three levels high.

David Boder

Yes . . .

Friedrich Schlaefrig

That appeared, of course, unthinkable to do, but since the aim . . . the aim of the deportation was only to . . . that the people, as fast as possible, be . . .

David Boder

. . . exterminated?

Friedrich Schlaefrig

. . . be exterminated, so also this, a condition of producing all kinds of illnesses, was a means toward the end.

David Boder

Were you then from your wife . . . separated? . . .

Friedrich Schlaefrig

Of course, we were . . . we were separated. But since we spent the first few months in this [word not clear] armory, where a separation was impossible because [few words not clear], so it could happen that a husband and wife were located next to each other, and so a separation . . . a special separation was altogether impossible. They . . .

David Boder

[In English] [interrupting] This concludes Spool 67 of Mr. Schlaefrig, from Vienna. We shall continue, I hope with another spool right after noon.

. . . Schlaefrig continues. We had lunch together and Mr. Schlaefrig gave me some . . . . hm, some more of his background. As he said before he is an engineer, architect, was in Government Service, was retired. He had in the middle '30s a pension amounting to about six hundred marks, or about one thousand schillings; possibly the equivalent of about two hundred or two hundred fifty American dollars, on which he could live well. His, hm, besides being an engineerâfrom his retirement he returned to an old hobby . . . And that is the construction of violins and a theoretical study of acoustics of wooden instruments in general. As a matter of fact, he intends . . . he intends in Africa to do something in that line.

David Boder

[In German] Now then, Mr. Schlaefrig, you have described Theresienstadt for me. Now let us return again to personal matters, after all, the description of Theresienstadt may be found in the literature, and will you please return to that what happened to you personally.

Friedrich Schlaefrig

From the beginning of our sojourn in Theresienstadt, we two, my wife and I,endeavored . . . to show ourselves useful to the commonweal, as we have already decided to do in Vienna. In line with that, we both started steering in Theresienstadt toward this goal. [This narrative becomes slow. He apparently searches for words of a 'higher' vocabulary level.] My wife reported immediately as a nurse for a hospital, and I have undertaken the 'liberation' of about one hundred of my comrades in transport, with whom we together were lodged in the so-called . . . in the so-called armory of the Border Riflemen. This armory of Border Riflemen was an ancient structure which consisted only of casemates, that is arched vaults, which were high-up covered with a layer of earth, about four to five meters thick, and on this layer of earth were originally located the artillery positions of the fortress . . .

David Boder

Now that was in the casemates?

Friedrich Schlaefrig

We were lodged in the casemates.

David Boder

You were, so to speak, underground, in subterranean . . .

Friedrich Schlaefrig

In subterranean . . . they were visible . . .

David Boder

Yes . . .

Friedrich Schlaefrig

. . . the mason structures, but they were from above . . .

David Boder

[covered] like with a mountain?

Friedrich Schlaefrig

. . . like with a mountain, above were lawns . . .

David Boder

Yes, were there windows?

Friedrich Schlaefrig

These were very small, [and] very dark rooms . . . rooms about five to six meters wide, and about forty meters deep. On both of the narrow sides was a small, double-window. Consequently the rooms were very dark. In each of these casemates were lodged ninety to one hundred men, and we, too, had to live in these casemates. We did not know that in this armory of the Border Riflemen was also housed a hospital, that next to our casemates were located casemates in which were kept typhus patients and 'Ruhr' patients.

David Boder

Ruhr . . . that is something like intestinal typhus?

Friedrich Schlaefrig

Ruhrâis dysentery . . .

David Boder

Yes . . .

Friedrich Schlaefrig

Dysentery and typhus . . .

David Boder

Yes . . .

Friedrich Schlaefrig

. . . And indeed, from the first few days there occurred cases of grave illness. From . . . From the . . . from the general inmates of the casemates every day died a few, and in the hospital where my wife rendered her services, it happened . . . it happened of course, daily that people . . . people deadly sick . . . [found] their end . . . ended there their lives. At this time we did everything to help the others. It was an extremely sad existence. At the beginning we had nothing to lay down on. The stone floors of the casemates . . . we covered with strawsacks which we later on [had begged for] . . . later obtained. We put on them our clothes, and the pieces of bedding we had brought with us, and so managed to arrange [?] for ourselves a place [?] for the night.

David Boder

You had 'two roll-beds. [that was a slip due to the bi-lingual situation] with you, wasn't that so? Did you get them back?

Friedrich Schlaefrig

[correcting] bed rolls . . .

David Boder

. . . bed rolls . . .

Friedrich Schlaefrig

The bed rolls were given to us in . . . returned to us in Theresienstadt. They were, of course, in part wet, but we dried them out and put them to use again.

David Boder

Were men and women put together . . . ?

Friedrich Schlaefrig

Men and women were together. There were mostly . . . mostly old people, rarely were there with the parents a son or a daughter. There were hardly any young people. And the old people were frequently in such a state, that they perished already during the first few weeks of such a regime. Beside,, after eight and fourteen days there were again selections, and a large part of my comrades were again sent away, to Polish lagers. I never saw them again.

David Boder

Hm . . . Which were the Polish lagers . . . Treblin . . . ?

Friedrich Schlaefrig

The Polish lagers were . . . I don't know where these people went . . .

David Boder

What kind of lagers were that . . . ?

Friedrich Schlaefrig

That nobody knows. They were sent up to Poland, whether to Treblinka, to Auschwitz, [one word not clear] . . . whether to other lagers, nobody ever knew where these transports went . . .

David Boder

Yes . . .

Friedrich Schlaefrig

. . . and there were never anymore letters from these people. The . . . the inhabitants of these casemates suffered, of course, badly from vermin and under the danger of becoming 'louse infested'. Nobody could properly undress or change clothes, because nobody could properly wash himself . . . Washing belonged almost to the things impossible, 'louse infestations' had greatly increased, and people in the casemates became actually 'louse-infested' and died amidst their own excrements. The saddest of sadnesses of our sojourn in Theresienstadt was the dwelling, during these weeks, in the dysentery and typhus-infested casemates of the armory of the Border Riflemen . . . After two months my wife suffered a breakdown; she was not up to the strains of night watches. She had to give that up and took over another service.

David Boder

Now, were the physicians Jews or . . .

Friedrich Schlaefrig

The physicians were Jews, and I must say . . . , the best that may be said about Theresienstadt is that the Jewish physicians were indeed good, that we had good physicians, and that they, within the possibilities, were endeavoring the people . . . to help . . . the people. Of course, there was a great shortage of drugs, and the drugs which were available were not enough for the large number of people who fell sick. After about two months I left, with my wife, the premises of the armory. The premises . . .

David Boder

Now tell me, did your wife return to you every evening to the armory . . . ?

Friedrich Schlaefrig

My wife only . . . in these casemates men and women [husbands and wives] could lie next to each other, to sleep . . .

David Boder

Yes . . .

Friedrich Schlaefrig

. . . they were together . . .

David Boder

Yes . . .

Friedrich Schlaefrig

. . . and there were . . . there were no provisions for the separation of the sexes.

David Boder

Aha . . .

Friedrich Schlaefrig

In the casemates . . . about eighty or ninety people had slept in each casemate, strawsack next to strawsack, one next to the other; others slept in the aisles, so that one had to step over the strawsacks when one wanted to go out at night to the latrine.

David Boder

Where was the latrine?

Friedrich Schlaefrig

The latrine was at the end of the casemate, in a precarious condition, so that . . . one shuddered when one had to use it.

David Boder

And did men and women use the same latrine?

Friedrich Schlaefrig

No! The women had a toilet at the other end of the building.

David Boder

Hm . . .

Friedrich Schlaefrig

A toilet, which with its four or five sections, was, of course, by far insufficient for the approximately twelve hundred people who were housed in this armory, so that people would stand in line, the women would stand in line . . .

David Boder

Yes . . .

Friedrich Schlaefrig

. . . in order . . . to use the toilet . . . And the men had the latrine at the . . .

David Boder

And how would the women change clothes or dress?

Friedrich Schlaefrig

The women had . . . one had to hang up something, or the men looked away.

David Boder

Aha . . .

Friedrich Schlaefrig

I was . . . a special existence . . . people got accustomed to a great deal . . . under these conditions.

David Boder

Yes . . . now then . . .

Friedrich Schlaefrig

The . . .

David Boder

. . . What was done with the dead people, the ones who died?

Friedrich Schlaefrig

These were . . . in one . . . put together in another casemate. . . . The bodies were then called for a day or two later, for interment . . . at these times we had an epidemic of dysentery and typhus, which affected so many victims, that in one night two hundred and twenty or two hundred and forty people happened to die.

David Boder

Where, in the casemate, or . . . ?

Friedrich Schlaefrig

No . . . in Theresienstadt.

David Boder

Yes, but I mean did they die in the hospital or in the casemate?

Friedrich Schlaefrig

No . . . in the casemates.

David Boder

In the casemates . . .

Friedrich Schlaefrig

Of course, the hospitals were unable to accept these many people . . . people were . . . it was . . . , people were lying, so that one would not know one from the other . . . My neighbor . . . in the morning he was dead.

David Boder

Yes . . . Aha . . .

Friedrich Schlaefrig

Death was a 'light' matter under these conditions . . .

David Boder

Now tell me, were there any religious manifestations [satisfactions], did they permit the people to pray, to a have a 'minjen' [prayer meetings], a synagogue . . . ?

Friedrich Schlaefrig

Yes . . . in a short time . . . in a short time the opportunities had . . . had presented themselves, that regular prayer hours were held in prayer rooms, in synagogue, Premises were converted into synagogues and the hours of prayer were normally maintained. There were always . . . there were always services [meditations] maintained through all the time, and there were always many Jews who participated in the services.

David Boder

Do you remember any Rabbi from Theresienstadt?

Friedrich Schlaefrig

Yes, I remember Dr. Neustadt . . .

David Boder

Where from . . .

Friedrich Schlaefrig

As far as I know, from Frankfurt on the Main . . .

David Boder

Yes . . .

Friedrich Schlaefrig

. . . Dr. Leo Beck from Berlin . . .

David Boder

Yes . . .

Friedrich Schlaefrig

. . . Otherwise the names . . .

David Boder

the names . . .

Friedrich Schlaefrig

. . . have slipped my memory.

David Boder

Were there any Jewish actors or artists?

Friedrich Schlaefrig

There was a large number of Jewish actors . . . I . . . Jewish actors, Jewish artists, such as artists of the piano, violin virtuosos, such as actors proper, singers, women singers, there were people of the films . . .

David Boder

E . . .

Friedrich Schlaefrig

. . . people of the films, directors of films. There was no shortage in cultural life. Of course, during the first months . . .

David Boder

Did they have their instruments with them . . . , some instruments?

Friedrich Schlaefrig

We had . . . During the early period there were no instruments whatsoever, And the cultural life came to develop itself only when the . . . when the whole management of Theresienstadt was steered into an organized course. All the time . . . it took the whole first year of my sojourn there. During the first year conditions had to be created so that people could live. We had no water system in Theresienstadt. When sixty-five thousand people are crowded together in such a small locality, and are dependent on well to obtain their water from wells, so it is obvious that, due to the communication between the various sections, a number of wells were contaminated in a short time with typhoid fever. That was the reason [??] that we had to close a number of wells, and had to undertake to extend the existing water pipe system. That was really a great piece of public works created under Jewish inventiveness and by Jewish labor. They expanded the water supply system, and have achieved [a condition] that we not only produced for the people good drinking water or, at least, not objectionable drinking water, but that also the toilet installations could be flushed with water, so that these unhygienic conditions were removed.

David Boder

And the Germans have permitted it?

Friedrich Schlaefrig

The Germans have permitted it, and we even obtained through them the material, because otherwise it would have been impossible in Theresienstadt.

David Boder

Yes . . . now . . .

Friedrich Schlaefrig

Afterwards . . .

David Boder

Did you say that Dr. Friedman was in Theresienstadt?

Friedrich Schlaefrig

Friedman and Stricker, both were in Theresienstadt. Friedman was . . . was the director of the financial department, that is, . . .

David Boder

In Theresienstadt?

Friedrich Schlaefrig

That is, of the ghetto. Afterwards it was not called anymore 'Jewish GhettoâTheresienstadt', but Jewish self-government of Theresienstadt.

David Boder

Yes . . .

Friedrich Schlaefrig

And Friedman was the director of the financial department in Theresianstadt . . .

David Boder

Yes . . .

Friedrich Schlaefrig

. . . and handled that department. Stricker, too, was in the Council of the Elders. Both made an adjustment and worked very much . . .

David Boder

And what happened to them?

Friedrich Schlaefrig

Friedman and Stricker were in the 1944 . . . they were, together with their wives, assigned to a transport which went to Auschwitz, and to my knowledge, were there gas-killed. They had dead . . .

You did not have any gas chambers in Theresienstadt?

Friedrich Schlaefrig

We had no gas chambers in Theresienstadt. But during the final months of the Nazi rule, we had such gas chambers also in Theresienstadt.

David Boder

Yes . . .

Friedrich Schlaefrig

Gas chambers which, however, never came to be used.

David Boder

Yes . . .

Friedrich Schlaefrig

It is being said, that the last leader of the Gestapo in Theresienstadtâit is being said -

David Boder

Yes . . .

Friedrich Schlaefrig

I don't know, I don't know whether it is really true [?]âit is being said that it was the last leader of Theresienstadt himself, who revealed to the Red Cross that it was intended also to install gas chambers in Theresienstadt, and proceed with gas-killings, and that he pleaded that, for this salvation of the Jews of Theresienstadt, he, be permitted a free departure for Switzerland.

David Boder

Was that done?

Friedrich Schlaefrig

I don't know whether that was done. Whether that man got out or not, I don't . . .

David Boder

What was his name?

Friedrich Schlaefrig

His name was Rahm.

David Boder

Rahm. Did he belong to the Storm troops?

Friedrich Schlaefrig

He was an SS, or Superior Storm leader, Rahm . . .

David Boder

Yes . . .

Friedrich Schlaefrig

As far Is I know, a Viennese.

David Boder

Aha . . . now . . .

Friedrich Schlaefrig

Returning to my personal fate . . . in two months . . .

David Boder

Yes, that is what we want.

Friedrich Schlaefrig

. . . the armory of the Border Riflemen was in two months abandoned because of the need of a thorough disinfection, due to being infested with lice and other vermin. And we were distributed into other dwellings. We ourselves, were assigned to a so-called block building. Those are the one-time private dwellings in Theresienstadt where we, my wife and twelve or fourteen other women, I and eleven other men, occupied one room, in which we were housed the whole winter of '42 and '43. In view of the urgency to keep all rooms in strict darkness against air attack, and the severe penalities that threatened for infractions against the black-out rules, it was impossible for the inhabitants of such rooms to maintain a supply of fresh air. The nights, therefor, were painful. I, for example, one night had not enough air to breath. I spent the whole night until morning without sleep, and I was glad when an inhabitant of the room had to go to a certain place and consequently, open the door so that a bit of fresh air could penetrate through the hallway . . . [he uses a special term]

David Boder

What did you call it?

Friedrich Schlaefrig

The exit, . . .

David Boder

Yes . . .

Friedrich Schlaefrig

. . . the stairway to the first floor [corresponds to second floor in U.S.A.], because my room was at the first floor, the room of my wife on the ground floor [?]. We then . . . afterwards . . . in the spring of 1945, the inhabitants of Theresienstadt were . . . were screened. The Gestapo made a classification, and took note of prominent individuals. And these prominent individuals were granted somewhat better living conditions. So that the people who were put in the class of the prominent were given usually a room for two, so that a family of husband and wife obtained a room for two, and could live for themselves, also a better . . . a better . . .

David Boder

maintenance?

Friedrich Schlaefrig

. . . maintenance. But the large [majority] . . . there were not too many, there were about one hundred and fifty . . .

David Boder

Where you among them?

Friedrich Schlaefrig

. . . two hundred prominent persons. No, I was not counted in [?].

David Boder

You were not among them.

Friedrich Schlaefrig

I was not among the prominent. Among the prominent were Murmurstein.

David Boder

The Murmurstein who was in Vienna?

Friedrich Schlaefrig

Murmurstein was among the prominent. A few of his people of the Cultural Council, whom he brought with him . . . they were included among the prominent due to his influence.

David Boder

How did it happen that Murmurstein was deported at all?

Friedrich Schlaefrig

Oh, that I don't know. 'One nice day' the Gestapo sent him away with his devotees [?] and his followers [?].

David Boder

Aha . . .

Friedrich Schlaefrig

I don't know the reasons. And so, there were not too many of these prominent [individuals], there were about one hundred and fifty to about two hundred. The large masses . . . it did not change much the fate of the large masses of other prisoners. The prominent were also . . . the prominent were also, to some extent, protected against the fate of further deportation to the Polish lagers . . .

David Boder

Now then. Friedman was not among the 'prominent', and . . .

Friedrich Schlaefrig

Friedman . . .

David Boder

. . . and Stricker.

Friedrich Schlaefrig

. . . Friedman . . . yes, Friedman and Stricker were also among the 'prominent', but lived for themselves in a house in which otherwise lived not only the prominent. Friedman and Stricker were under the 'prominent'.

David Boder

And still they were afterwards sent away?

Friedrich Schlaefrig

They were sent away in spite of that.

David Boder

You were not among the 'prominent'?

Friedrich Schlaefrig

I was not among the 'prominent' and also, I too, was put into the transports, but twice, one must say due to the play of fate, or God's help

David Boder

will . . .

Friedrich Schlaefrig

. . . will, I was counted out again from the transports.

David Boder

Now let us continue, now then . . .

Friedrich Schlaefrig

Yes.

David Boder

Return now to your personal story.

Friedrich Schlaefrig

I have . . . I have in November . . . in November, 1942, I have presented myself at the disposal of the technical services, and worked in the technical services. I have mentioned already, that we had to build up the water . . . the water supply, to make the existing water installation serviceable for the needs of the present large population, to lay new water lines through all the streets, to work on the installation of large tubes. We had to do not only that, we had to put the houses into such conditions that they would fit better sanitary requirements. And that kept us very busy. We also had to take care of the circumstance, that since we had to occupy the attics of the buildings because the [regular] floors did not offer enough space to house [all] the people . . . we had to look out for fire hazards, to fight the fire hazards . . . We had to form among the Jews a fire brigade. The Gestapo supplied us with a motor pump and two other pumps, and so there was established a real fire brigade under a fire chief, and we . . . we had also . . . we had also to organize a fire police, which had always to inspect so that . . . so that the dwellings be, from a standpoint of fire [safety], beyond reproach. We had to create a procedure of fire fighting, and that kept us busy for a few months. We had to proceed with an immense number of other technical tasks which are contingent upon the management of such a mass of buildings. Besidesâand that, of course- occupied greatly the technical serviceâthe Gestapo with its . . . with its contingent, with the whole personnel of the Gestapo, placed a great emphasis [on the requirement] that their quarters be maintained under most perfect conditions. There always had to be built something, they always had some demands, nothing was good enough for them, because the 'gentlemen' from the Gestapo lived in Theresienstadt in their own dwellings, in their own buildingsâthat was a special section of the city which was separated for the Gestapo alone, the large park outlays, which had the beautiful, the modern . . . the best buildings of Theresienstadt; there had to be installed marvelous accommodations for the passtime of the Gestapoâcafes, restaurants, a cinema theatre, a magnificent one; clubroomsâall that had to be created by us, and that took a large part of the efforts of the construction service, which had to do the job. And to . . .

David Boder

In these contacts with the Gestapoâwere they friendly? were they polite?

Friedrich Schlaefrig

The large part of the Jews had nothing to do with the Gestapo.

David Boder

Yes . . .

Friedrich Schlaefrig

What the Gestapo was concerned, one was glad not to see them. One was . . . one had naturally to be at attention and saluate them on the streets . . .

David Boder

Hm . . .

Friedrich Schlaefrig

The same courtesy [?] had to be shown to the Gendarmerie . . .

David Boder

Oh . . .

Friedrich Schlaefrig

The police . . .

David Boder

Yes . . .

Friedrich Schlaefrig

. . . because they formed the guard service used by the Gestapo, all [carefully] chosen [?]; and . . . the city was guarded by the Czech police.

David Boder

Aha . . .

Friedrich Schlaefrig

And so it was the duty of the inmates to salute everyone of those people, without . . . these people were under the strictest 'interdiciton of gratitude', they were prohibited to thank . . .

David Boder

Who?

Friedrich Schlaefrig

Czech gendarmerie was not permitted to thank . . . the Gestapo, of course, did not thank. They were walking through the city with their riding crops, in their high boots, and everyone who just say them got out of their way [avoided them] . . .

David Boder

Oh, they were prohibited to thank when they were greeted . . . ?

Friedrich Schlaefrig

No, they could not . . .

David Boder

They were not permitted to return the greeting . . . ?

Friedrich Schlaefrig

They were not permitted to return the greeting, and they did not return the greeting. One was glad not to have anything to do with them. Unfortunately, it came to that, that when people somehow would get careless . . . the chauffeurs of the Gestapo drove their tractor, their automobiles in the most inconsiderate manner, and there were quite a few cases where people were run over because they were unable to get out of the way in time. It even was said that one of the chauffeurs made it his business to run over Jews . . . Well . . . that is all just [told] in passing.

David Boder

Now then . . .

Friedrich Schlaefrig

The . . . the technical service has . . . has taken on a large scope. It took on . . . indeed the work demanded from the technical service was very large in scope. By the beginning of the year 1944, it appeared that the Gestapo got orders to convert Theresienstadt into a 'model' lager [better demonstration lager] . . .

David Boder

Yes . . .

Friedrich Schlaefrig

. . . that means to make out of Theresienstadt a lager that could be shown to visiting [not clear] people and possibly to the Red Cross. And so all at once there came an order to beautify the city. Beginning with the year '44, the technical service had an unspeakable amount of work, to attain the beautification of this city. Everything was to be put in order, everything had to be shined up, painted up; the streets had to be kept meticulously clean. No scrap of paper could be thrown away. It became, indeed, a rather clean little town. The armories had to be vacated in part because the Gestapo had transferred to Theresienstadt a large central archive from somewhere in Germany, a whole card index of the members of the Party.

David Boder

. . . to Theres . . .

Friedrich Schlaefrig

And so a large armory had to be cleared out within a few days and all the premises had to be adapted for this archive. In a few weeks this archive was indeed installed, and it was serviced by Gestapo personnel, The Jews did not have anymore access to it, except those who were doing maintenance work, the attendants, those who were tending the stoves . . .

David Boder

Yes . . .

Friedrich Schlaefrig

. . . people who were doing some kind of chores . . .

David Boder

But not office work.

Friedrich Schlaefrig

No office work of any kind. That was blocked off from the Jews. The year '44 stood under the 'sign' of beautification of the city. We had repeated visits by foreign representatives of the press, . . .

David Boder

For example . . . there were not many foreigners who were not involved in the war . . . Sweden, Switzerland, . . .

Friedrich Schlaefrig

Yes, obviously these were only the ones who still had their press representatives in Germany.

David Boder

Yes.

Friedrich Schlaefrig

And it was customary not to give any answers except to that what the Gestapo would ask. One could not answer at all the questions which the representatives of the press happened to ask.

David Boder

Could the representatives of the press see the people?

Friedrich Schlaefrig

Yes. The representatives of the press have seen the people, but of course, they were shown only 'that', they were led only to such places, that route [of the tour] was determined beforehand, according to a most definite red line and they distributed to the press . . .

David Boder

What kind of a red line, there was a line drawn?

Friedrich Schlaefrig

On the map . . .

David Boder

On . . . , Yes, on the map . . .

Friedrich Schlaefrig

. . . a red line, and they followed that route, and all the dwellings which were included in the plan of the tour had to 'shine in their glory' [had to be 'spic 'n ' span']; they had to present and appearance that would be free of any objection.

David Boder

Now then . . .

Friedrich Schlaefrig

That occurred a few times . . . and in order to show to the representative of the press something more [better], provisions were made for shops, ghetto currency was printed . . .

David Boder

Ghetto dollars or marks?

Friedrich Schlaefrig

dollars . . .

David Boder

No!

Friedrich Schlaefrig

Real ghetto 'dollars', Theresienstadt ghetto dollars.

David Boder

Yes . . .

Friedrich Schlaefrig

In units from one up to, I think, one hundred . . . up to one hundred dollars[Footnote 3: He uses the English word dollars. However, there was at one time German, an Austrian currency called 'der Taler' equivalent to three German marks.].

David Boder

Yes . . .

Friedrich Schlaefrig

Ghetto money. And such ghetto money was earned by the working people. All those who rendered any kind of labor for the community were paid in Ghetto dollars.

David Boder

What would one buy for that?

Friedrich Schlaefrig

And so, in order to present this [one word not clear] village with complete reality, stores were opened, and the inmates of the ghetto were able to but all kinds of things that were allotted to these stores.

David Boder

For instance?

Friedrich Schlaefrig

Predominantly there was that merchandise, which was taken away from the Jewish . . .

David Boder

Stores?

Friedrich Schlaefrig

. . . members of the transports; which were taken from the trunks . . . which were withheld, taken away.

David Boder

Aha . . .

Friedrich Schlaefrig

The people who came to Theresienstadt were rarely permitted to keep their 'large baggage'. The large trunks were simply kept under lock, and every week so and so many hundreds, so and so many thousands of trunks were emptied by working women of the ghetto, [the things] were sorted-out; and all the underwear, all clothing or other gear that was found in the trunks, was stored in one of the armories, the so-called 'ware house' [?] armory. In this warehouse armory was deposited all . . . all the property and belongings of . . . of the Jewish inmates of the ghetto. I frequently had there some business, because I had to build the shelves on which the goods were arranged, and to reinforce them because they became overloaded . . .

David Boder

Yes . . .

Friedrich Schlaefrig

The largest . . . No underwear factory in Germany, I believe no underwear factory of the world had such a large inventory of mens' shirts, womens' shirts or the like, as I have seen in the warehouse armory of Theresienstadt. There were in readiness, without exaggeration, hundreds of thousands of pieces of underwear of any kind. Not only was there in that armory the baggage . . . there was in that warehouse armory not only the baggage of the inmates of the Theresienstadt Ghetto which was, so to speak, snatched [on the sly] from them . . .

David Boder

Yes . . .

Friedrich Schlaefrig

. . . as one said, 'inspected and sorted-out', but from all parts of Germany, the baggage taken away from the Jews was sent to Theresienstadt, and there it was packaged, sorted-out in order to be sent out all over the country, to various cities, for the people who were bombed-out and suffered a shortage of underwear and clothing.

David Boder

Yes . . .

Friedrich Schlaefrig

It was an immense storehouse of clothing, underwear, shoes, of objects of necessity of any kind. And with this . . . with part of these supplied sto . . . stores were fitted out, and the Jews were now able to buy with their ghetto dollars the merchandise which was taken away from the Jews.

David Boder

Yes . . .

Friedrich Schlaefrig

Naturally, there was often among the things very beautiful merchandise, very good merchandise, but 'pull' played here a part. And with good connections one could get good merchandise, and the one who had no connections, got no merchandise, only bad merchandise.

David Boder

And who worked in the stores?

Friedrich Schlaefrig

The stores were served by Jews. They had there . . . one was the manager, the others were employees in the storeâJews and Jewesses were there, the salesmen and saleswomen. And then, in order to complete the picture of a community, steps were taken toward the organization of a social life. They created a cafe. On the premises of the cafe were given concerts. On orders of the Gestapo the ghetto was compelled to organize a Jewish orchestra. There were found enough musicians, the instruments were obtained, and concerts were given in the cafe hall. Within the landscapes of the park which were laid out on the grounds in order to embellish the city, was erected an orchestra pavilion, where concerts were given nightly, which by the way, were not bad at all . . . where the Jewish musicians did very well . . . very well indeed. Also . . . all activities directed toward an agreeable leisure time for the workers and the old people, and so arrangements were made for lectures, there were formed committees for the utilization of the leisure time, lecture societies, language courses were given, and were given scientific lectures in all possible fields, in the technological field, in the medical field, in the religious field. There was a quite active life [interest] in all these fields. Stage plays were given, the actors got together. In the attics stages were erected, arrangements made for the audiences, and so a . . . a quite active spiritual life got slowly, and slowly in swing. That was in the year '44, and by that time the life of the Jews in Theresienstadt, as seen from the surface, has become quite tolerable [?].

David Boder

So, in most cases, men and women were housed together . . .

Friedrich Schlaefrig

However, one may . . . only very few were housed together. They were separated, men and women. [This apparently does not include married couples, See page 29 of this interview] That would have been immaterial. What made the stay at Theresienstadt so terrible was the anxiety about where one may find himself between today and tomorrow.

David Boder

People were sent away?

Friedrich Schlaefrig

Every week transports were sent away, with the exception of a short spell during Christmas time and Easter time. With the exception of these two periods, there were always transports sent to Poland; from the various regions of Germany and Czechoslovakia [Spool ends in middle of the sentence. Continuation on Spool 69 which had to be reproduced anew from the 'carbon wire' original. âD.P.B.]

David Boder

[In English] This is Spool 69. Paris, August 8, [correction] August the 23rd, 1946, the continuation of Spool 67 and 68 of Mr. Friedrich Schlaefrig.

David Boder

[In German] Now then, you have more or less, described the situation in Theresienstadt which was supposed to be a demonstration place [unit] for concentration camps, and was therefore, so to speak, very 'elegantly' reinstalled; but the main anxiety at those times was about the possibility of a 'selection' . . . You say that every week . . .