And someone correct me (like I have to ask) but I was under the impression that Illinois was about as tightened down a state in terms of gun control as any in the country. If that's the case their numbers aren't something to brag about either.

e0y2e3 wrote:Cali should be flat, their aggressive reform started in 1989, not 2005.

DC started in the early 90s.

Same with NYC.

A 2005 - 2009 sample size shows very little. I already provided that data, Cali homocides are down 56% since the passing of the first gun control legislature in 1989. That legislature isn't the only reason, but it is certainly a component.

Okay, but what's to say that legislation and that component didn't simply bring Cali back toward the mean? Looking at the raw numbers, even with the efforts they've made, you're still looking at almost 80% more murders in Cali than in Texas and the % of firearms murders (Cali 68%, TX- 64% per 100,000 people) would indicate..... what, exactly?

And answer my question about the measures I mentioned above. I want to hear.

e0y2e3 wrote:For as bad as Illinois is murder rate per 100K are down SUBSTANTIALLY since the 90s.

But is that good enough? Is that what we're looking for?

Illinois is the 5th biggest state by population and has the 7th most murders, 80% of which are gun related. And they're very restrictive. It would be worse if they weren't, yes(?), but it's not stopping the problem. It's only brought it down to where the numbers are in line with their population.

Why do Americans see protection of the Second Amendment as synonymous with maintaining their 'freedom' and liberty? The Constitution and the Bill of Rights which so many Americans hide behind and revere so fervently are based on English and French documents from 17th and 18th century (e.g. 1689 English Bill of Rights is the document where you will find the provenance of the US Second Amendment). Your 'freedoms' are not uniquely 'American'. Many of you would benefit from realising that 'freedom' is not idiosyncratically nor solely an 'American' idea/value. Stricter gun laws make it more difficult for the wrong people to own guns. Yes, ok some will still find illegal avenues into procuring firearms but if restrictions on gun ownership saves lives then why are you so opposed to it? As long as it's not their children dying then they are quite happy to continue to enjoy this so called 'freedom' of gun ownership. Is this really worth fighting for? Can your conscience bear the burden of knowing that innocent children die so that you can fire a few rounds and a target range.

"There is but one thing of real value: to cultivate truth and justice and to live without anger in the midst of lying and unjust men"

1) Expand the FFL requirement to all assault weapons. You are going to have to grandfather in all the ones currently owned legally (like the NFA in 1986), or have some sort of way to have these people register them. Complicated situation.

2) Close the gun show loophole.

3) Reinstate the 5 day waiting period.

4) All guns and ammo sold over the internet requires no less than a 14 day waiting period, increased sales tax, and approval from local law enforcement.

5) Make the legal magazine size smaller.

As a gun owner, I will not just comply with the demands of an angry mob high on self righteousness. It will be a situation where both sides must compromise.

You can't compare Apples to Oragnes in statistical analysis Peeker. When stats and cities that have put legistlature in place have improved (dramatically) in murder rates per capita you can't answer with: "but there aren't that many murders in Texas!!!"

Population density, income levels, urban realities, etc all impact those figures dramaticly in Illinois, Cali, NYC and DC. Substantial decline in those areas can't be nullified by the fact that Texas isn't nearly populated the same.

Even Cali lets the rural areas have slight differences in their treatment.

Now the problem becomes, we've seen marked improvement in areas where we have rolled out the strictest of gun control (typically Urban) while letting suburbs and rural areas have far more lax laws. Well, now the urban war is countered by the suburban killing spree. If we've made vast improvements in one area (seriously, do you realize how FUCKED our cities were in the 90s? You are significantly undervaluing what it took to get Chicagoland/DC/NYC/LA all to the point where urban renewal could begin) we should at least try expanding the legistlature that created those improvements to another area. And we should also think outside the box a bit.

Can your conscience bear the burden of knowing that innocent children die so that you can fire a few rounds and a target range

Oh shut the fuck up, asshole. I didn't walk into that school and start blasting. Your attempt to lay a guilt trip on everyone who owns firearms is shameless.

My problem is that you manage to so easily detach your 'freedom' from the consequences that result from it. I'm not saying you condone or are in some way to blame for the slaughter of hundreds every year by gun crime, but rather I suggest that you hold your gun rights higher than what is in the interests of the majority.

Not exactly in keeping with government of the people, by the people, for the people.

"There is but one thing of real value: to cultivate truth and justice and to live without anger in the midst of lying and unjust men"

Cerebral_DownTime wrote:I do apologize for name calling, BP. I was angry.

It's fine. My language can sometimes be antagonistic

Good discussion, I do not, and have not ever owned shooting weapon of any kind including a BB Gun. I did qualify M-16 and 38 handgun while in the military, but I've always been so damn paycheck-to-paycheck my entire adult life, that investing in guns and ammo was just not my thing. The only thing I remember shooting was frogs with my friends BB Gun. My family wants to get involved, shooting ranges, handguns, etc. and I just haven't made it a priority. Yet philosophically I think like this:

"When the people fear their government, there is tyranny; when the government fears the people, there is liberty"

Of course you can't actually prove that Thomas Jefferson said that even though it flies around the internet faster than a Morgan Freeman quote.

The problem is that in these times we fear each other. When we fear one another naturally we turn to the government to help alleviate those fears in some way. There are no easy answers in all this, but I like CDT's solution. Peeker has reasonable ideas. And doing nothing just isn't going to happen so finding some middle ground is crucial.

Is it just too soon to bring up this continuing intrusion of our Civil Liberties during the Bush/Obama years? That trend is about to accelerate. (Which is why finding some middle ground is the only choice).

Personally I want to know that there are folks out there armed to the teeth. Yet, all it takes is one....

Rights born of the Constitution should not be granted in accordance with a tax. I'm sorry but that's absurd. Nor is this an issue of race what so ever. The reason this recent tragedy, and similar ones, garners so much attention is b/c innocent children were the victims AND b/c this again has happened in what almost all of us would consider a very innocent and untouchable setting, a school. It's a place where we'd say you just don't do this there, not a school.

I'm in full agreement that security in schools is unrealistic, especially considering this countries financial situation, even though the safety of our children probably shouldn't have a ceiling.

e0y2e3 wrote:You can't compare Apples to Oragnes in statistical analysis Peeker. When stats and cities that have put legistlature in place have improved (dramatically) in murder rates per capita you can't answer with: "but there aren't that many murders in Texas!!!"

Population density, income levels, urban realities, etc all impact those figures dramaticly in Illinois, Cali, NYC and DC. Substantial decline in those areas can't be nullified by the fact that Texas isn't nearly populated the same.

Even Cali lets the rural areas have slight differences in their treatment.

Now the problem becomes, we've seen marked improvement in areas where we have rolled out the strictest of gun control (typically Urban) while letting suburbs and rural areas have far more lax laws. Well, now the urban war is countered by the suburban killing spree. If we've made vast improvements in one area (seriously, do you realize how FUCKED our cities were in the 90s? You are significantly undervaluing what it took to get Chicagoland/DC/NYC/LA all to the point where urban renewal could begin) we should at least try expanding the legistlature that created those improvements to another area. And we should also think outside the box a bit.

And at what point have I said in this thread that I'm not willing to listen to doing that?

I'm fine with it. Make it harder to get licensed and get a CCW, make it more painful to violate more stringent laws. I suggested that earlier. And I'd still make it somewhat more expensive for ammo while limiting capacities of mags. Use the increased revenues to fund safety/education programs or beef up security in high risk venues.

We're only an element of time away before one of our sporting events is Black Sunday. Not "if", "when".

I get all that. And I truly wish people would specify who they're talking about when they write we're hanging onto an archaic amendment. I'm not. I said immediately I do not own the guns I have to protect myself from the tyranny of governments foreign and domestic. I have them because I'm licensed to do so, I'm responsible and respectful of what they do and I use them to varying effects when I hunt or go to the range.

I understand the difference between cars and guns and booze and meth. Stop assuming everyone who owns a gun is a card carrying radical right wing NRA member. I'm not that. Not directed at any one person, just saying stereotypes are lazy. I thought long and hard about bringing guns into my house and I think long and hard about what I'll be doing every single time I carry that concealed carry weapon. I'm going to get a beer for JTA's and another friend's birthday right now. I'm not taking a weapon out. I don't take it to work. I don't take it to schools. You're prohibited from doing so and if you're responsible enough to understand when to take it and when to leave it home you're ahead of the game. But I take when I go fish and when I hunt or when I go to a hotel for soccer/volleyball tournies, etc because I've been in situations where it may ultimately be what gets me, my wife or my kids home. And I'm going to get me and my kids home if it comes to that.

British_Pharaoh wrote:As long as it's not your kids that are dying because of all that out-dated and irrelevant 'freedom' you are enjoying, then I don't expect your absurd attitudes to change...You do understand King George is no longer a threat, right?

British_Pharaoh wrote:As long as it's not your kids that are dying because of all that out-dated and irrelevant 'freedom' you are enjoying, then I don't expect your absurd attitudes to change...You do understand King George is no longer a threat, right?

So, if this incident had merely been a repeat of the Aurora shooting this past summer--say some douche dressed up like a wizard and shot up a bunch of Tolkein dorks--would it have gotten anywhere near the enduring response this appears to be getting at this point?

And if, as I'm assuming, it wouldn't have, does this just mean the cultural lesson learned is: Stupid American Kid Worship trumps Stupid American Gun Worship?

That's the real truth in all this. The only reason people care right now is because they can see their kids faces as the victims. Aurora didn't get this response (though interestingly the NRA took 10 days off Twitter after Aurora out of respect, they didn't even take a day this time), everytime an innocent kid has been killed by a stray bullet in the city no one cared, etc.

It's really tragic what it takes to make people realize how truly deep some of our core problems run.

HoodooMan wrote:So, if this incident had merely been a repeat of the Aurora shooting this past summer--say some douche dressed up like a wizard and shot up a bunch of Tolkein dorks--would it have gotten anywhere near the enduring response this appears to be getting at this point?

And if, as I'm assuming, it wouldn't have, does this just mean the cultural lesson learned is: Stupid American Kid Worship trumps Stupid American Gun Worship?

I don't know. All comes down to kids that age being "innocent" I guess. Same way a St Judes Cancer commercial pulls at the heartstrings more so than a Cancer Center of America comercial.

Like there are lines of demarcation. 15 yr old gangbangers kill each other every day. No one gets...umm.... up in arms over gun laws when that happens. Lee might tell you no one cares because of racial issues (aside from him, of course ). I will tell you that's it more their "innocence", age and 'age of reason' issues that differentiate them from twenty 6 yr olds.

At least it is from my perspective.

Starting to wonder if my refusal to watch Batman and Hobbit movies is more about some innate survival instinct as opposed to a dislike of bad movies...

Can your conscience bear the burden of knowing that innocent children die so that you can fire a few rounds and a target range

Oh shut the fuck up, asshole. I didn't walk into that school and start blasting. Your attempt to lay a guilt trip on everyone who owns firearms is shameless.

My problem is that you manage to so easily detach your 'freedom' from the consequences that result from it. I'm not saying you condone or are in some way to blame for the slaughter of hundreds every year by gun crime, but rather I suggest that you hold your gun rights higher than what is in the interests of the majority.

Not exactly in keeping with government of the people, by the people, for the people.

If a drunk driver mowed down some of your family members, would you try to make us feel guilty for driving a car?

Can your conscience bear the burden of knowing that innocent children die so that you can fire a few rounds and a target range

Oh shut the fuck up, asshole. I didn't walk into that school and start blasting. Your attempt to lay a guilt trip on everyone who owns firearms is shameless.

My problem is that you manage to so easily detach your 'freedom' from the consequences that result from it. I'm not saying you condone or are in some way to blame for the slaughter of hundreds every year by gun crime, but rather I suggest that you hold your gun rights higher than what is in the interests of the majority.

Not exactly in keeping with government of the people, by the people, for the people.

If a drunk driver mowed down some of your family members, would you try to make us feel guilty for driving a car?

No, I'd have a problem if you were one to frequent drive while drunk (which would be a closer analogy to the topic under discussion)

"There is but one thing of real value: to cultivate truth and justice and to live without anger in the midst of lying and unjust men"

Can your conscience bear the burden of knowing that innocent children die so that you can fire a few rounds and a target range

Oh shut the fuck up, asshole. I didn't walk into that school and start blasting. Your attempt to lay a guilt trip on everyone who owns firearms is shameless.

My problem is that you manage to so easily detach your 'freedom' from the consequences that result from it. I'm not saying you condone or are in some way to blame for the slaughter of hundreds every year by gun crime, but rather I suggest that you hold your gun rights higher than what is in the interests of the majority.

Not exactly in keeping with government of the people, by the people, for the people.

If a drunk driver mowed down some of your family members, would you try to make us feel guilty for driving a car?

No, I'd have a problem if you were one to frequent drive while drunk (which would be a closer analogy to the topic under discussion)

The analogy is the same. It's the ass hole in control that does the killing.

HoodooMan wrote:If I had kids, I guess I'd be more likely to see it that way, but (and it feels like I'm paraphrasing Carlin here, maybe?) kids mostly seem to me like future shitty adults.

Aurora was the most disturbing for me, I think, simply because it felt the smartest and most premeditated.

And I think that's the biggest issue of all of them. And one of the things that will limit the effectiveness of any tightening of gun control laws. It's a couple leaps of logic away from the issue we're discussing, but the underlying issue to many (most) of the societal ills is parenting. That's includes gang bangers, kids who are bullying, kids who are mentally ill and don't get the right treatment/care/supervision, all of it.

It's an overwhelming issue and one so big I have no idea how you begin fixing it. I think the gun issue and drug issue and a lot of other issues are derivatives of that. Just my opinion.

Now, kind of as an aside and not because I know at all what the hell I'm doing when it comes to raising three girls, but I debated even talking about this whole deal with my youngest. It's uncomfortable, it's scary, it's unnatural in my mind. But I did talk to her and asked what she would do if someone walked into their school or classroom with a gun. I have no answers. My advice to her was to get to the floor as quickly as possible and tip her desk to stay behind, cover her head and face with a book.

How's that for advice to your 12 year old middle schooler? Sure as shit not a conversation I ever had with my parents. But is one I also had to have with the two in high school.

I mean, what do you say? Is there more you can do to, if not protect them and insulate them, to at least tip the odds in their favor of getting out of that room while the kids of someone who didn't have that talk don't?

And I think that's the biggest issue of all of them. And one of the things that will limit the effectiveness of any tightening of gun control laws. It's a couple leaps of logic away from the issue we're discussing, but the underlying issue to many (most) of the societal ills is parenting.

Like most of these shootings, this kid was in a well-to-do school and didn't fit in. Parents divorced, etc etc etc. They're carbon copies of each other.

Last edited by Spin on Tue Dec 18, 2012 3:52 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Don’t people see the inherent shit-hole of a country that we have created at this point? Our political process… broken. Our economy…. Broken. Our rights…. Limited by The Bible…. Our guns, WE’VE GOT THE MOST IN THE WORLD…. Our murder rate, unbearably high….

Dmiles talked earlier about feeling better about protecting liberty by having an armed nation and then alluded to the Obama and Bush’s intrusion on our personal freedoms. Well, I must ask, in a nation that is broken and becoming more broke by the day isn’t it the gov’ts responsibility to intrude when we can no longer be trusted to police ourselves? It isn’t like our personal freedoms are being taken away, so much as they are now being monitored, stored and rightly observed.

If we want complete and utter privacy we (as a nation) have to prove that we can handle it. If we want to be armed to the teeth we have to prove we can handle it. If we want a functioning political system we have to elect people that will create it. We ultimately own the shit we are living in right now and until we realize that things will continue to degrade. This issue, suburban kids being killed in a “safe” place, is a chance for people to actualize a problem that has been present in other cultural places in our country forever and actually work toward a solution. It’s a chance to stand up and start trying to fix something that is broken.

And frankly if we don’t start working (as a nation) to fix things here (starting with our political system) we deserve to lose more and more and more right. W the ability to self-govern is lost the presence of democracy is also lost. This is a fact I truly believe. If the nation continues down the path that it is on the only answer may be absolute submission to an absolute power.

I can't even wrap my head around the challenge that would be parenting your kids in such a way that they're different enough from their shittily-raised peers to grow into the kind of well-adjusted adults you'd like them to be...but not so different from their shittily-raised peers that they become social outcasts, with all of the baggage that can carry. That is, if you can even pull off the "different" part of that equation and all your efforts aren't undermined by the pressure to conform to the BS around them that they can't possibly have the perspective to realize is BS before they're swallowed up by that BS.

Good discussion all around, but I think it's a little faulty to compare gun control as it pertains to urban street crime to gun control as it pertains to unthinkable tragedies like Newtown and Aurora. I actually agree with Lee about the methods used in DC, California, NYC, etc. and think they should be implemented more. But what happened in Newtown and Aurora is on such another level (with mental health, repression, willing suicide, etc. involved) that you're almost talking about a separate crime.

And the extreme positions on either side of this are like a football defense deciding that now it's only strategy is to prevent 80 yard touchdown runs. Sure, you always want to prevent 80 yard touchdown runs but focusing only on that will likely hurt you in other areas and make things worse. The continued problem of everything being reactive instead of proactive in this country, but that's another discussion. There's a solution in the middle that attacks both issues the best we can, but it's in the middle. You're never banning guns and you're never keeping crime under control with unfettered access to any gun you want. We have to consider what would have a realistic chance of passing and a realistic chance of working given what's already in place.

Last edited by Kingpin74 on Tue Dec 18, 2012 4:20 pm, edited 3 times in total.

"Well then I guess there's only one thing left to do...win the whole, f***in', thing."- Jake Taylor

Dmiles talked earlier about feeling better about protecting liberty by having an armed nation and then alluded to the Obama and Bush’s intrusion on our personal freedoms. Well, I must ask, in a nation that is broken and becoming more broke by the day isn’t it the gov’ts responsibility to intrude when we can no longer be trusted to police ourselves? It isn’t like our personal freedoms are being taken away, so much as they are now being monitored, stored and rightly observed.

That's the issue, Lee. You want a government that's led us to "broken" to intrude. I don't know which people out there I can trust, but I know better than to trust any policitician because I'm quite convinced that the vast majority have only their own interests at heart. Whehter it be financially motivated or power motivated our "leaders" have given me no indication they're capable of not manipulating any system for their own gains.

You want a revolution I can get behind then set the gun issue aside for just a moment and start buying back and melting down the corrupt fucks that run politics in this country. I'd start there and work my way on after that.

But you'd actually need a populus that gave a shit to do it. And I don't know if people care enough or are aware enough to actually give a shit or do anything about it.

Note: I did say we have to start by fixing the poltiical system. That said, even with the corrupt political system we have today, I feel better having the gov't intrude on me via "rights violations" like the Patriot Act than I do without them.

And no dem, I wouldn't care about that. Leaving this country would be for a multitude of reasons, but mainly because the future is so grim. We aren't even educating our kids at a level considered high-end globally now. Throw in the fact that they are getting shot up for being six and... well... WTF is it worth? The only thing saving our intellectual capital here is our Universities (real ones, not shitty ones) and we are trying our damndest to ruin the value of college diplomas from the US as well. Throw in the economy and the broken poltiics and you have to honestly start to question what the future is here.

If I were to leave it would be because of a search for intellect, not for some "FUCK THE US I'M DENOUNCING" load of shit.

The IQ of this country is going to bottom out, soon. Or we'll end up in a civil war of sorts between urban and rural America.

I've been trying to hold out freaking out about the future until all the Boomers die, but it just seems so damn far away.

I have heard of people leaving for economic reasons, yet maintain dual citizenship and residences. I've really never heard of someone leaving this country (as broken as it might be) for an INTELLECTUAL haven.

I use to think of myself as a cynic's cynic. And I have been pissed off enough to consider never voting again (but i succumbed). I hate the hippocrisy of local/state gov't bureaucracy and I think our governor needs to be replaced.

Certainly, after this 4-page debate on guns, I really do think there needs to be some major reform.

But I've invested too much of myself (and my children, and now grandchildren) in this country to EVER, EVER consider leaving. Hiding out in a Montana wilderness cabin, yes......But NEVER leaving.

Lee has actually made some good points today, don't get me wrong I'll pay for the U-haul and help with the move. However most of those points still revolved around the individual and the choices they make and how responsible the person is, they just do.

Most of it starts at home. Maybe even all of it.

It feels like people just aren't fully invested at home, or at least a lot aren't, and if they are it is with the wrong priorities.

Criminals in this town used to believe in things...honor, respect."I heard your dog is sick, so bought you this shovel"

e0y2e3 wrote:Don’t people see the inherent shit-hole of a country that we have created at this point? Our political process… broken. Our economy…. Broken. Our rights…. Limited by The Bible…. Our guns, WE’VE GOT THE MOST IN THE WORLD…. Our murder rate, unbearably high….

Dmiles talked earlier about feeling better about protecting liberty by having an armed nation and then alluded to the Obama and Bush’s intrusion on our personal freedoms. Well, I must ask, in a nation that is broken and becoming more broke by the day isn’t it the gov’ts responsibility to intrude when we can no longer be trusted to police ourselves? It isn’t like our personal freedoms are being taken away, so much as they are now being monitored, stored and rightly observed.

If we want complete and utter privacy we (as a nation) have to prove that we can handle it. If we want to be armed to the teeth we have to prove we can handle it. If we want a functioning political system we have to elect people that will create it. We ultimately own the shit we are living in right now and until we realize that things will continue to degrade. This issue, suburban kids being killed in a “safe” place, is a chance for people to actualize a problem that has been present in other cultural places in our country forever and actually work toward a solution. It’s a chance to stand up and start trying to fix something that is broken.

And frankly if we don’t start working (as a nation) to fix things here (starting with our political system) we deserve to lose more and more and more right. W the ability to self-govern is lost the presence of democracy is also lost. This is a fact I truly believe. If the nation continues down the path that it is on the only answer may be absolute submission to an absolute power.

JFC I'm glad/hope I won't be around for your dictator-in-chief...unless you're like jb and think he's here already?

I mean, that cocksucker coukld have fucked a goat on live TV and his lemmings would stillhave voted for him...thats a problem...that blind party loyalty when everything should have pointed to a change and then another change and then another change etc etc etc

The government doens't have any answers other than taking other peoples money...the government is the major part of the fucking problem...just ask an Indian

FUKC!..Just read all the pork passed in a bill to help Sandy victims!

Fuk the government and its white collar thieves...JFC...if a plane had to smash into any bldg on 9-11 justice would have been hitting the capitol bldg with congress and the senate in session

FUDU wrote:Lee has actually made some good points today, don't get me wrong I'll pay for the U-haul and help with the move. However most of those points still revolved around the individual and the choices they make and how responsible the person is, they just do.

Most of it starts at home. Maybe even all of it.

It feels like people just aren't fully invested at home, or at least a lot aren't, and if they are it is with the wrong priorities.

Everything I've read so far about the parents, both father and mother, are that they were universally considered good people and good parents.