God did not make you an atheist - you came to that conclusion all on your own through your thinking. Thinking has made you into an atheist.

god didn't make you a theist. You were programmed from a young age to believe in a god. Having a brain that is susceptible to taking in all information, irrespective of its validity, and being born into a culture where religion is pervasive has made you into a theist.

To some extent true. That is why there are rules to humanity for the sake of the innocent and pure. For instance it is birth that cuddles me and nourishes me. And it is this love and compassion that responds to the hierarchy established before my birth. It is for my Mother to tell me this is my father and to reinforce that truth. If she is lying and so is the father I have been deceived by the corrupt inhumane parentage. Rules have a purpose and without it the liars corrupt everyone. Theist know God others who do not know should say they do not know. There is a method to knowing anything.

It is the highest human condition to try and find the truth rather than stagnate and do nothing.

From a man who believes in the words of a 2000 1700 year old book over those who used logic and inquiry????

Are you really trying to be that ironic?

« Last Edit: February 12, 2014, 11:17:44 PM by Hatter23 »

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An Omnipowerful God needed to sacrifice himself to himself (but only for a long weekend) in order to avert his own wrath against his own creations who he made in a manner knowing that they weren't going to live up to his standards.

Wrong. All theists create their own religious beliefs, and no two are the same. That's because of the way the human mind works.

Quote from: Jesuis

His goal historically is to remind man of the path to knowing and becoming a more highly evolved humane human being

Sounds like you're describing Buddhistm here, since that's how a Bodhisattva works. But the vast majority of theists (especially Christians and Muslims) are not in it to become a "more highly evolved humane human being". They're in it for the free immortality plus benefits after they die.

Quote from: Jesuis

through awareness of the effects of his own thoughts words and deeds on others as they all have consequences either raising or lowering the child humanity.

What you're describing here is morality, which is not dependent on theism. Morality is simply a codified system of behaviors that allow us to get along with other people.

Quote from: Jesuis

Man makes religion on the teachings of a theist and on the belief they have in him. A theist is one who knows God whereby the rest of us are atheists with beliefs.

So how do you tell which are the actual theists and which are the "atheists with beliefs"? You see, EVERY theist holds this opinion about everyone who doesn't hold to their own beliefs (and usually to a specific creed as well), and the vast majority of them hold that opinion honestly. Ironically, the ones who are least blinkered are the ones who actually declare themselves atheists.

It is the highest human condition to try and find the truth rather than stagnate and do nothing.

From a man who believes in the words of a 2000 1700 year old book over those who used logic and inquiry????

Are you really trying to be that ironic?

Where did you get this idea from?

Gee

Quote

"In the beginning was the WORD and the WORD was with God and the WORD was God." and the Word became Flesh.What is the WORD?

I wonder?

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An Omnipowerful God needed to sacrifice himself to himself (but only for a long weekend) in order to avert his own wrath against his own creations who he made in a manner knowing that they weren't going to live up to his standards.

It is the highest human condition to try and find the truth rather than stagnate and do nothing.

From a man who believes in the words of a 2000 1700 year old book over those who used logic and inquiry????

Are you really trying to be that ironic?

Where did you get this idea from?

Gee

Quote

"In the beginning was the WORD and the WORD was with God and the WORD was God." and the Word became Flesh.What is the WORD?

I wonder?

Does not mean I believe in the book. Does it? I may see truth of a sentence. For instance "Thou shall not lie" if quoted does not mean I believe in the book of Moses either - I may believe in the truth that there are consequences if one lies etc.

God did not make you an atheist - you came to that conclusion all on your own through your thinking. Thinking has made you into an atheist.

god didn't make you a theist. You were programmed from a young age to believe in a god. Having a brain that is susceptible to taking in all information, irrespective of its validity, and being born into a culture where religion is pervasive has made you into a theist.

To some extent true. That is why there are rules to humanity for the sake of the innocent and pure. For instance it is birth that cuddles me and nourishes me. And it is this love and compassion that responds to the hierarchy established before my birth. It is for my Mother to tell me this is my father and to reinforce that truth. If she is lying and so is the father I have been deceived by the corrupt inhumane parentage. Rules have a purpose and without it the liars corrupt everyone. Theist know God others who do not know should say they do not know. There is a method to knowing anything.

I don't really understand the relevance of most of your post so I'll respond to the bit that is bolded.

There is a method to knowing things. It is unbiased critical thinking. Experience on its own does not lead to knowledge.

God did not make you an atheist - you came to that conclusion all on your own through your thinking. Thinking has made you into an atheist.

Thinking was an important part of it, yes. Doing so with an open mind and a willingness to test the things that I believed was also very important. The latter allowed me to recognize which beliefs I could verify, and which were baseless. And that allowed me to free myself from ancient superstitious ideas that continue to hold far too many people captive today.

God did not make you an atheist - you came to that conclusion all on your own through your thinking. Thinking has made you into an atheist.

I didn't think about being an atheist, I just stuck to the position I was born with.

Thinking is not associated with birth. Experience is.

Thanks for highlighting my point.

Such experiences cannot be put into words - it is divine and pure, unfortunately this state of being conscious without thought is quickly robbed from us as we begin to become more and more sense aware of the physical body and learn to use it by connecting to the environment via the senses that pull our attention to that level of experience.

God did not make you an atheist - you came to that conclusion all on your own through your thinking. Thinking has made you into an atheist.

I didn't think about being an atheist, I just stuck to the position I was born with.

Thinking is not associated with birth. Experience is.

Thanks for highlighting my point.

Such experiences cannot be put into words it is divine and pure but that is quickly robbed from us as we begin to become more and more sense aware as we connect more and more with the senses that pull our attention to that level of experience.

Can I have some meat with that word salad?

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If you keep on living your life as though your purpose is to be saved and go to heaven, you are missing the heaven that you are living in right now.

God did not make you an atheist - you came to that conclusion all on your own through your thinking. Thinking has made you into an atheist.

I didn't think about being an atheist, I just stuck to the position I was born with.

Thinking is not associated with birth. Experience is.

Thanks for highlighting my point.

Such experiences cannot be put into words it is divine and pure but that is quickly robbed from us as we begin to become more and more sense aware as we connect more and more with the senses that pull our attention to that level of experience.

God did not make you an atheist - you came to that conclusion all on your own through your thinking. Thinking has made you into an atheist.

god didn't make you a theist. You were programmed from a young age to believe in a god. Having a brain that is susceptible to taking in all information, irrespective of its validity, and being born into a culture where religion is pervasive has made you into a theist.

To some extent true. That is why there are rules to humanity for the sake of the innocent and pure. For instance it is birth that cuddles me and nourishes me. And it is this love and compassion that responds to the hierarchy established before my birth. It is for my Mother to tell me this is my father and to reinforce that truth. If she is lying and so is the father I have been deceived by the corrupt inhumane parentage. Rules have a purpose and without it the liars corrupt everyone. Theist know God others who do not know should say they do not know. There is a method to knowing anything.

I don't really understand the relevance of most of your post so I'll respond to the bit that is bolded.

There is a method to knowing things. It is unbiased critical thinking. Experience on its own does not lead to knowledge.

Including the followers of Ugabuga a volcano god that demands sacrifice.

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An Omnipowerful God needed to sacrifice himself to himself (but only for a long weekend) in order to avert his own wrath against his own creations who he made in a manner knowing that they weren't going to live up to his standards.

Wrong. All theists create their own religious beliefs, and no two are the same. That's because of the way the human mind works.

The theists are in control of their mind and they do not create their own religious beliefs. It is their followers minds that are filled with rites and rituals that enable them to focus on what the teacher has taught. These cultural traditions are mind creations that have to do with community, culture, language etc.

Quote from: Jesuis

His goal historically is to remind man of the path to knowing and becoming a more highly evolved humane human being

Sounds like you're describing Buddhistm here, since that's how a Bodhisattva works. But the vast majority of theists (especially Christians and Muslims) are not in it to become a "more highly evolved humane human being". They're in it for the free immortality plus benefits after they die.

What you call Christians and Muslims are not the same as theists. The theists who know God have a single aim for humanity which has always been to raise the mindset of his faithful followers. The same thread of enlightenment coming from the Holy Spirit The Word made flesh that descends upon the chosen one who has perfected and purified his mind that the two become one and the same - The prophets, the messiahs, the gurus, the Boddhisatvas are all in tune with this same power above and the aim is the same - to advance the mind set of the flock or faithful. Only the faithful is being advanced but the society at large benefits from their presence. What is at the heart of their teachings is "Blessed are the pure at heart for they shall see God". "If you love me follow my commandments" Love all equally in a manner of speaking. Whatever the theist is saying to his faithful he saying it with the intent of raising their awareness - is also using a method to try to get them unstuck from some mental distractions - the final goal at hand is God.

Quote from: Jesuis

through awareness of the effects of his own thoughts words and deeds on others as they all have consequences either raising or lowering the child humanity.

What you're describing here is morality, which is not dependent on theism. Morality is simply a codified system of behaviors that allow us to get along with other people.

According to the theists "Love is at the heart of life - it is the pure conscious state of the spirit or soul". This state of knowing is beyond thinking. When thinking has stopped this state remains aware and filled with divine love. This is the state the theists have been trying to get their followers to become aware off. Morality is what helps them achieve this goal and immorality is what hinders that process.

Quote from: Jesuis

Man makes religion on the teachings of a theist and on the belief they have in him. A theist is one who knows God whereby the rest of us are atheists with beliefs.

So how do you tell which are the actual theists and which are the "atheists with beliefs"? You see, EVERY theist holds this opinion about everyone who doesn't hold to their own beliefs (and usually to a specific creed as well), and the vast majority of them hold that opinion honestly. Ironically, the ones who are least blinkered are the ones who actually declare themselves atheists.

We cannot tell or know them for who they are - we simply follow our minds dictates with its mindset of beliefs. We can analyse what they say or do. We can believe what we want.We do what our mind desires and on occasion we try to better ourselves -- some times we are failing at every step - we make one step forward and two steps backward. It is the theists who choose their disciples to follow them.

God did not make you an atheist - you came to that conclusion all on your own through your thinking. Thinking has made you into an atheist.

I didn't think about being an atheist, I just stuck to the position I was born with.

Thinking is not associated with birth. Experience is.

Thanks for highlighting my point.

Such experiences cannot be put into words it is divine and pure but that is quickly robbed from us as we begin to become more and more sense aware as we connect more and more with the senses that pull our attention to that level of experience.

Can I have some meat with that word salad?

A dumb man was asked to explain what he experienced when he ate the chocolate.

You use the word theist as if you mean prophet or mystic or guru. I don't think that means what you think you mean.

Words are very confusing things aren't they. We humans used to called "atheists" non believers back in the old days. But the word "non believer" back then meant not in the God you call God. Not that they did not believe in God altogether. Today the meaning has changed with time to "there is no God". It was not always that way.

When you make up meanings for "frequency" that do not match anyone else's yes they are. When people play equivocation games, yes they are. When people use sloppy language to hide their assumption's in, like some Catholics do, yes. When a person strives for clarity, such as most atheists do, not so much.

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An Omnipowerful God needed to sacrifice himself to himself (but only for a long weekend) in order to avert his own wrath against his own creations who he made in a manner knowing that they weren't going to live up to his standards.

Including the followers of Ugabuga a volcano god that demands sacrifice.

The thinking process of man creates many things. Theists are trying to get us to rise above the imaginary illusive creations of the mind.

Then define God. Show how the evidence of said God is separable from a fictional one.

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An Omnipowerful God needed to sacrifice himself to himself (but only for a long weekend) in order to avert his own wrath against his own creations who he made in a manner knowing that they weren't going to live up to his standards.

The theists are in control of their mind and they do not create their own religious beliefs.

Given the subjective nature of a person's mind, how do you know this? I don't think you do; indeed, I don't think you can.

Quote from: Jesuis

It is their followers minds that are filled with rites and rituals that enable them to focus on what the teacher has taught. These cultural traditions are mind creations that have to do with community, culture, language etc.

And what makes you think that the teacher doesn't have rites and rituals in their own mind that enable them to focus on what they learned? Or did that even occur to you to wonder about?

Quote from: Jesuis

What you call Christians and Muslims are not the same as theists.

When you arbitrarily redefine a word like that, you just sow confusion. The word theist means, "one who believes in the existence of a god or gods". Therefore, Christians and Muslims are theists by definition. Instead of trying to redefine an existing word, coin your own word to refer to what you specifically mean, like I did when I coined the word 'apatheist'[1].

Quote from: Jesuis

The theists who know God have a single aim for humanity which has always been to raise the mindset of his faithful followers.

All you have to go on is ancient stories which have dramatically changed over time. For example, if there was an actual, historical Jesus, he was very little like how the gospels painted him as - given that they were all written decades after his supposed death and almost certainly not by the ones they were named for. Furthermore, even what you put here gives the lie to your intentions. It isn't about trying to uplift humanity as a whole, it's about rewarding the faithful, like every religion ever.

Quote from: Jesuis

The same thread of enlightenment coming from the Holy Spirit The Word made flesh that descends upon the chosen one who has perfected and purified his mind that the two become one and the same - The prophets, the messiahs, the gurus, the Boddhisatvas are all in tune with this same power above and the aim is the same - to advance the mind set of the flock or faithful.

I don't think that people who were really in tune with some higher power would be focused on belief the way you seem to think. Look at the people Jesus regularly preached to - people who didn't have belief in YHWH in the first place. Even if you were right, and prophets, messiahs, gurus, and so on were actually in tune with a higher power, they wouldn't be aiming to advance the mindset of the faithful. They'd be aiming at people who weren't faithful to begin with, and at breaking the stratified chains of belief that people inevitably surround themselves with.

Quote from: Jesuis

Only the faithful is being advanced but the society at large benefits from their presence. What is at the heart of their teachings is "Blessed are the pure at heart for they shall see God". "If you love me follow my commandments" Love all equally in a manner of speaking. Whatever the theist is saying to his faithful he saying it with the intent of raising their awareness - is also using a method to try to get them unstuck from some mental distractions - the final goal at hand is God.

While I commend the idea of getting people free of their mental blocks, why should the final goal be a god? Why not focus on the journey instead of a goal? Seems to me that it's far more important to focus on the road you travel than on whatever your ultimate goal might be.

Quote from: Jesuis

According to the theists "Love is at the heart of life - it is the pure conscious state of the spirit or soul". This state of knowing is beyond thinking. When thinking has stopped this state remains aware and filled with divine love. This is the state the theists have been trying to get their followers to become aware off. Morality is what helps them achieve this goal and immorality is what hinders that process.

It sounds like you actually mean "knowing without knowing". This is indeed a good state to be in - to where your knowledge is so internalized that you don't even have to think about it, the way we internalize language. However, what makes you think that it's even slightly necessary to conflate it with religious belief? Not only that, but what you're suggesting is actually fairly inane. It frankly isn't what I'd consider to be wise or profound. The purpose of internalizing knowledge to where you no longer have to think about it is so that your mind can be focus on other things instead; not to move someone to a point at which they never have to actually think.

Quote from: Jesuis

We cannot tell or know them for who they are - we simply follow our minds dictates with its mindset of beliefs.

If you don't know, then just say that. Don't say things with the intent of trying to be wise or profound, because it rings false.

Quote from: Jesuis

We can analyse what they say or do. We can believe what we want.

Which doesn't help matters any.

Quote from: Jesuis

We do what our mind desires and on occasion we try to better ourselves -- some times we are failing at every step - we make one step forward and two steps backward. It is the theists who choose their disciples to follow them.

When you make up meanings for "frequency" that do not match anyone else's yes they are. When people play equivocation games, yes they are. When people use sloppy language to hide their assumption's in, like some Catholics do, yes. When a person strives for clarity, such as most atheists do, not so much.

Since we are all atheists I agree. Clarity is what we need to move forward but any word that keeps changing cannot be used to reason truth.

Since we are all atheists I agree. Clarity is what we need to move forward but any word that keeps changing cannot be used to reason truth.

It would be reasonable to not use any word you don't understand the definition of. I don't think there is any reason to use the word "atheist" at all. On this forum, half the participants are knowingly agnostic about what or whether there could be a god or maker. When a Christian uses the word atheist on this forum, it's usually followed by something idiotic, because he's speaking to a non-existent, or stereotyped audience.

Its not about the definition of something that cannot be defined. Its about us.

Look - I know that being all wootastically vague and ethereal makes you feel all mystically wise and sh*t, but honestly, to the rest of the known and unknown universe, it makes you sound like an evasive twit who is uninterested in any meaningful communication. If that's the case, do the world a favor and shut the f*ck up. Otherwise, make some f*cking effort at conveying something meaningful.

Jesus-b-f*cking-h-tap-dancing-christ-on-a-segway. Woo for the sake of woo is irritating.

"When we landed on the moon, that was the point where god should have come up and said 'hello'. Because if you invent some creatures, put them on the blue one and they make it to the grey one, you f**king turn up and say 'well done'."

Since we are all atheists I agree. Clarity is what we need to move forward but any word that keeps changing cannot be used to reason truth.

It would be reasonable to not use any word you don't understand the definition of. I don't think there is any reason to use the word "atheist" at all. On this forum, half the participants are knowingly agnostic about what or whether there could be a god or maker. When a Christian uses the word atheist on this forum, it's usually followed by something idiotic, because he's speaking to a non-existent, or stereotyped audience.

I understand that free will allows everyone to think and say anything they want. The truth is always a little bit harder to say. A Christian dropout should not call himself an atheist or agnostic because it confuses everyone and makes it impossible to locate the problem or reasoning for their lack of belief that should have led to a strengthening of their faith.