andre9999 wrote:Even better yet, through a little metta meditation in there towards Tilt and see what happens.

Absolutely. I certainly have done this. For me, it's very good practice to deliberately send metta and thoughts of good will not only to myself and the people I care about, but also to people I am neutral about and to people with whom I have had disputes.

How is that working?

Jechbi wrote:Many of the responses have focused on my manner of conveying those concerns. Few have focused on the underlying concerns. I don't want to dwell on it or try to prove a point. I don't want to litigate. I don't want to dig around and come up with lots of examples. But I also don't want to keep having the focus put again and again on my manner of conveying these concerns. That wasn't supposed to be the topic.

I agree 100%. I think that the saṃsāra really should stop driving us crazy like that. Don't feel like you're alone. I really do appreciate your great endeavor in pressing on till finally this saṃsāra gives up, for once and for all. It'd be great also if you could make it scream "uncle," while you're at it... because I think that it really deserves it. That would be truly beneficial... for you, me and everyone.

Having just come to this thread - I'd like to say something. It's better, (I'm not concerned with 'form'), I think to hash this stuff out privately. No matter how angry I get at a person (and you don't want to know, honey); I wouldn't call them out on the carpet publicly. Oh I might give a dig now and then, but for something serious - a pm to a mod would be the only way to handle it. Otherwise, it just publicly embarrses the person in question - and does anyone really want to do that? (You might also end up publicly embarrasing yourself )

So, if you're just so boiling with rage that you just have to say something - say it - but say it privately.

Personally, I have found the mods to take such things very seriously - and with a sense of compassion, understanding of human frailties and a sense of humour). AND, I found that things do indeed change around here.

I would also like to end on the note that DW is not the most contentious or negative Buddhist Website out there - there's another - won't mention the name - that is too vicious by half -

People get excited here from time to time - but I don't sense a true underlying nastiness that I've sniffed out on other sites.Even some of the seemingly snarky ones here have made insightful posts showing great compassion to others - honest.

It's the best if we put ourselves into the shoes of the one we adress and then decide if we would like to hear that with others witnessing it, or if we would be thankful not to be judged, shamed, lectured, and so forth.

When you are suffering - 'Why am I suffering? Why am I miserable?' Because you are clinging to something! Find out what you are clinging to, to get to the source.

'I'm unhappy because nobody loves me.' That may be true, maybe nobody loves you, but the unhappiness comes from wanting people to love you. Even if they do love you, you will still have suffering if you think that other people are responsible for your happiness or your suffering.

Someone says, 'You are the greatest person in the world!' – and you jump for joy. Someone says, 'You are the most horrible person I've met in my life!' – and you get depressed. Let go of depression, let go of happiness. Keep the practice simple: live your life mindfully, morally, and have faith in letting go.

"As Buddhists, we should aim to develop relationships that are not predominated by grasping and clinging. Our relationships should be characterised by the brahmaviharas of metta (loving kindness), mudita (sympathetic joy), karuna (compassion), and upekkha (equanimity)."~post by Ben, Jul 02, 2009

Some of the responses and name-calling in this thread illustrate why it's so difficult to participate here. Different people are treated differently. I have always tried to maintain a positive approach and show gratitude for others. Fede, the fact that you are a moderator on three other boards yet feel justified in creating messages such as appear here in this thread illustrates what is wrong with Buddhism discussion boards in general.

Anybody who seriously wants to understand what has been going on here can do some research on the phenomenon of scapegoating.

Rain soddens what is kept wrapped up,But never soddens what is open;Uncover, then, what is concealed,Lest it be soddened by the rain.

Jechbi wrote:Some of the responses and name-calling in this thread illustrate why it's so difficult to participate here. Different people are treated differently. I have always tried to maintain a positive approach and show gratitude for others. Fede, the fact that you are a moderator on three other boards yet feel justified in creating messages such as appear here in this thread illustrates what is wrong with Buddhism discussion boards in general.

Anybody who seriously wants to understand what has been going on here can do some research on the phenomenon of scapegoating.

Probably the best thing for you, Jechbi, to do is to start your own forum and run it the way you see fit, setting the tone and all that goes with it. I'd highly recommend it.

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723

>> Do you see a man wise[enlightened/ariya]in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<<-- Proverbs 26:12

Jechbi wrote:Some of the responses and name-calling in this thread illustrate why it's so difficult to participate here. Different people are treated differently. I have always tried to maintain a positive approach and show gratitude for others. Fede, the fact that you are a moderator on three other boards yet feel justified in creating messages such as appear here in this thread illustrates what is wrong with Buddhism discussion boards in general.

Anybody who seriously wants to understand what has been going on here can do some research on the phenomenon of scapegoating.

Jechbi;

One of the things people who practice Buddhist meditation try to learn is how to let things go. There are people who have nothing to do with Buddhism and who have never meditated who have let bigger things go. I honestly don't mean any insult to you, but what does it say about your practice that you aren't letting go of this thread after all of this time?

It really doesn't matter. Let it go.

In reading the scriptures, there are two kinds of mistakes:One mistake is to cling to the literal text and miss the inner principles.The second mistake is to recognize the principles but not apply them to your own mind, so that you waste time and just make them into causes of entanglement.

Thanks, Jhana. The same could be said of anyone who posts here. Does that mean any time we post in a thread in which we've faced disagreement, we're not "letting go"?

I understand that you don't mean to insult me. But you also are not able to see whether I'm letting go or not. These things rise and pass away constantly. Someone makes a comment here, I read it and maybe write a response, then I let it go. Then maybe I happen to check back again and there's another comment. Then I may respond to that one and let it go. It's not always lodged somewhere, sticking there.

On the other hand, "letting go" certainly does not mean just ignoring things and pretending they don't exist. Regardless of how you and others perceive my actions, I have been trying to make a positive impact here for anybody who wants to hear the Dhamma. I realize most people won't believe that, but that has been my intention. I'll "let go" of that intention when I'm ready to do so, thank you.

Rain soddens what is kept wrapped up,But never soddens what is open;Uncover, then, what is concealed,Lest it be soddened by the rain.

Jechbi wrote:Thanks, Jhana. The same could be said of anyone who posts here. Does that mean any time we post in a thread in which we've faced disagreement, we're not "letting go"?

Call me a hypocrite, but I think "yes".

On the other hand, "letting go" certainly does not mean just ignoring things and pretending they don't exist.

Dude, it really doesn't matter. If you don't believe me try telling someone in your real life about your situation here and watch their reactions. I did something similar about 5 years ago. It taught me that I was giving a lot of importance to something most people consider to be trivial ( a dispute on the internet ). I never won that dispute either. Effect on my life? Zero, except for losing a tiny bit of respect from the friend I told my internet troubles to.

In reading the scriptures, there are two kinds of mistakes:One mistake is to cling to the literal text and miss the inner principles.The second mistake is to recognize the principles but not apply them to your own mind, so that you waste time and just make them into causes of entanglement.

Jechbi wrote:Regardless of how you and others perceive my actions, I have been trying to make a positive impact here for anybody who wants to hear the Dhamma.

"Insanity is repeating the same mistakes and expecting different results" (Narcotics Anonymous, 1983)

tiltbillings wrote:Probably the best thing for you, Jechbi, to do is to start your own forum and run it the way you see fit, setting the tone and all that goes with it. I'd highly recommend it.

This on the other hand, you have not yet tried - I too would highly recommend it.

When David, I and other Dhamma Wheel founding members didn't like how E-Sangha was being managed, we didn't hang about there whinging... we started our own alternative. If you think there's a market for a forum designed around your proclivities, I recommend you trial it.

I recommend that you do some research into the phenomenon of scapegoating. The group dynamic at play here in this thread and elsewhere on this board is a good illustration of it.

If you look at the discussion referenced in the OP, you will see exactly that phenomenon at play. The tag-team responses from you and Tilt in that thread were more about isolating and estranging a person with whom you disagree rather than having a friendly, collaborative discussion. It was scapegoating.

You and Tilt set the tone for discussion on this board, and it's no surprise that this thread and discussion elsewhere on this board sometimes tends toward the negative. If you had wished to do so, you could have set a different tone in this thread and elsewhere on this board.

With regard to me personally, you went onto my blog and analyzed me according to Meyers-Briggs. You and others repeatedly have sought to portray me as mentally unbalanced, a tactic you continue to display here in this comment in referencing "insanity." It's demeaning, and it's also a very good example of scapegoating tactics.

My underlying message, first privately and publicly, is that this board would be better for Dhamma discussion if the mod/admin team treated people with more respect, if a friendlier approach were adopted, and if more open discussion were allowed. I also feel that people with viewpoints that differ from those of the mod/admin team are treated particularly harshly, which is counterproductive to Dhamma discussion. And I feel that legitimate points of view sometimes are villainized and marginalized. I have been astonished at the negative and highly personal reactions I have received, first privately and then publicly, from you personally and from others.

Privately, Retro, I have received messages from other Dhamma Wheel members who recognize what's happening here and who have told me they don't like what they see in your conduct.

The goal is to force me to "let go" and "move on" so that the board leadership problems I am discussing can continue to be denied, ignored, and not openly discussed. Then a certain self-selected group of members here (thankfully not including all members) can return to the fiction that the board is fine just the way it is. Some of us know better.

Rain soddens what is kept wrapped up,But never soddens what is open;Uncover, then, what is concealed,Lest it be soddened by the rain.

I come to DW every day. Several times a week I read things from other posters that offend me. Frequently, posts of mine are moved or deleted. Threads I find interesting are shut down. I don't like it. While I like some of the admins, I find others to be arrogant and authoritarian.

Any of these offenses to my sense of the way things should be are in no way less than the things that fuel your frequent complaining.

I'm not putting up hate blogs and I'm not starting elephantine threads about any of these things.

You aren't Patrick Henry fighting for justice and freedom of speech. You are complaining with great attachment to something most people consider to be a triviality. Being offended by the way someone does something on the internet.

The mods are human beings just like you. They have their own views and they are going to run the board that way. It is their board. That is life.

In reading the scriptures, there are two kinds of mistakes:One mistake is to cling to the literal text and miss the inner principles.The second mistake is to recognize the principles but not apply them to your own mind, so that you waste time and just make them into causes of entanglement.

Jechbi wrote:Privately, Retro, I have received messages from other Dhamma Wheel members who recognize what's happening here and who have told me they don't like what they see in your conduct.

The comment is not very meaningful. If some members don't like what is going on here they can either go through the complaints procedure if they wish their concerns dealt with privately or they can raise a thread in the suggestion box. And I encourage them to do so.

Greetings Jhana4

I come to DW every day. Several times a week I read things from other posters that offend me. Frequently, posts of mine are moved or deleted. Threads I find interesting are shut down. I don't like it. While I like some of the admins, I find others to be arrogant and authoritarian.

I don't think I've shut down any threads of late but I have removed from view a large number of posts. My attitude is that when a member signs up to Dhamma Wheel they have to check a box when asked whether they have read and understood the Terms of Service. Moderator action (including disciplinary action) is carried out with respect to breaches of the terms of service. That is the basis of my intervention as moderator as I know it is also the basis of my colleagues. If threads are shut down it is because discussion has either reached a natural conclusion or the thread has become a train wreck courtesy of the less-than-ideal behavior of some members.In one instance in early March when we communicated regardng the move of your posts, I sent you the following message:

You started a discussion thread yesterday (my time) "Do you really find the Dhamma inspiring?" but continued the same discussion in "Letting go of longing for a relationship". I merely moved those posts which were a continuation of Do you really find the Dhamma inspiring? back to that thread, thereby maintaining the integrity of "Letting go of longing for a relationship".The TOS are clear that off-topic posts are removed from view or moved routinely and without warning.

I'm sorry if you, or anyone else, finds the action of me or my colleagues authoritarian. Believe it or not, we (mods/admins) are here to help facilitate a supportive environment for Dhamma discussion for the benefit of all.kind regards

Ben

“No lists of things to be done. The day providential to itself. The hour. There is no later. This is later. All things of grace and beauty such that one holds them to one's heart have a common provenance in pain. Their birth in grief and ashes.” - Cormac McCarthy, The Road

Learn this from the waters:in mountain clefts and chasms,loud gush the streamlets,but great rivers flow silently.- Sutta Nipata 3.725

My comment was meant for Jechbi at face value and not as a thinly veiled put down. I take disagreements on web boards as part of life. Like being a guest in someone's home. I may not like the way they run things, but I accept that it is their shot to call without getting upset over it. I wrote that only in the hope that Jechbi would pick up on a perspective that would help to take the inevitable human differences on the internet far less seriously than he is now.

In reading the scriptures, there are two kinds of mistakes:One mistake is to cling to the literal text and miss the inner principles.The second mistake is to recognize the principles but not apply them to your own mind, so that you waste time and just make them into causes of entanglement.