Giants GM Brian Sabean used the terms “big splash” and “sticker shock” to describe his offseason plans on Tuesday, but don’t expect Prince Fielder, Albert Pujols or Jose Reyes to rescue the worst offense in the National League.

Quite the opposite, actually.

In a conference call to announce contract extensions for Sabean and Manager Bruce Bochy, the Giants’ top decision makers were in lockstep: They plan to earmark most their money for their “gold standard” pitching staff, then use the remainder to improve a team that scored the fewest runs in the NL last season.

“There won’t be any big splash,” Sabean said. “Our pitching is our gold standard. We have to make sure we take care of that commodity first.”

Asked about perceived second-tier free agents like Phillies shortstop Jimmy Rollins, Sabean said, “It’s going to be a function of what’s left in the payroll and what the price point is. A sticker shock type of play, I don’t anticipate it, a household name, per se.

“Anything we do has to fit at a certain price point and give us flexibility to do other things. Give us better balance. One of the things we’ve seen, whether it’s winning the World Series (in 2010) or being banged up (in ’11), depth is important and flexibility with the roster is important. We want to maintain some of that.”

This isn’t the first time you’ve heard Sabean espouse the virtues of “spreading the wealth” throughout the roster. The Giants payroll will go up to roughly $130 million this season, but those funds will get gobbled up in arbitration raises and escalating salaries to players already under contract.

Sabean made re-signing Carlos Beltran seem like a longshot, too. Although he planned to address Beltran in an internal conference call later today, he didn’t disagree with the notion that an AL club (with the benefit of the DH down the road) would offer Beltran a longer-term contract than the Giants were comfortable offering to a player with bad knees in his mid-30s.

“He is a consideration but term will be an issue with anybody we pursue,” Sabean said. “Whether it’s him or anybody else. We have a game plan with what we consider a reasonable length.”

It’ll be interesting to see what kind of contract terms the Giants toss around for Tim Lincecum and Matt Cain. Sabean and club CEO Larry Baer have not hidden their desire to lock up both players; Cain will be a free agent after 2012 while Lincecum still has two more arbitration years before he could walk after the ’13 season.

Vice president Bobby Evans, who joined Sabean, Baer and Bochy on the call, said he has exchanged ideas with Cain and Lincecum but talks have been very broad.

Sabean made it clear that the extensions will not be his focus when he arrives at the winter meetings in Dallas on Sunday. He is looking to improve the offense via trade or free agency, with the outfield being the area most in need.

As for shortstop, Sabean said he was impressed with the strides Brandon Crawford made in the Arizona Fall League and it’ll be a “spirited topic” both in a conference call today and at the winter meetings whether he will be anointed the starter. Sabean and Bochy agreed with the notion that the Giants can carry Crawford’s questionable bat if they get enough offensive improvement elsewhere.

“We know what his glove brings and we know he’s trying like hell to make adjustments at home plate,” Sabean said. “Albeit not against major league pitching, he was very confident in what we asked him to do. He put the ball in play at the belt and below. He tried his darndest to stay off high fastball, which has been his kryptonite. He’ll be a spirited topic as we make that ultimate decision. He’s getting high marks as far as the strides he’s made.”

And what of Brandon Belt, who got lost in his first major league season?

Sabean didn’t make any proclamations about playing time, but also gave him high marks for his performance in the Dominican winter league.

“He should be proud of his efforts,” Sabean said. “Fewer kids want to take on winter ball. He saw the value in getting more at-bats and finishing off what he wasn’t able to do because of the time he lost with the injury and somewhat (because of) the lack of performance.

“I was able to watch a couple of his games on Dominican TV and video and he made a concerted effort to make some adjustments. All the reports we got from Moises Alou (the GM of Belt’s team, Escogido) were positive. He was playable in the outfield, although we know his best position is first base. This was a nice step for him. I’m happy and pleased he wanted to do this and accepted the challenge and played very well.”

As for Cody Ross, there’s still a chance he could return. Sabean, asked directly about Ross, answered with, “Not sure.”

Speaking generally, Sabean left the impression that he might not make another move to help the offense.

“I think we have developed enough choices including our young players in the mix and our arbitration eligible players as far as the price point that’s suitable,” he said. “I think we’ve created enough food for thought and flexibility.”

Sabean also said: “Health is always an issue. We hope the guys who were banged up last year come back to form and do their part and pull their weight.”

If the season were to begin today, the Giants might be best aligned with (a presumably fitter) Aubrey Huff in left field and a first base platoon of Belt and Brett Pill. Nate Schierholtz would be in right field with Melky Cabrera in center.

As for Pablo Sandoval, Sabean and Evans said he is thinking of curtailing his visit to Venezuela in a couple weeks. Instead of playing in 10 games, he might stay just a week. But the Wilson Ramos kidnapping hasn’t changed his thinking. It’s more because he wants to maintain focus on his conditioning program with Triple Threat Performance in Arizona. A final decision hasn’t been made, Evans said.

Finally, Baer said he had to wait for Major League Baseball to approve the change of ownership control from Bill Neukom before he could begin negotiations to extend Sabean and Bochy. Once that happened Nov. 17, Baer said his first order of business was to get those deals done.

“We certainly like the results under Bruce and Brian’s leadership and we want to continue that,” Baer said. “Different organizations have different imprints. We’re stable, we have continuity, for our fans to understand that and know that is a positive.”

Baer said Bochy and Sabean are the best at their crafts. Asked to define that, he said: “We all know we’re in a business of cycles and you got to look at how long-term performance plays out. You look at also what resources you have. Brian has overseen the operation through all sorts of environments. His first year, in ’97, we were at Candlestick and he retooled the team into a division championship. He has made tremendous efforts throughout our 12 years here at the new ballpark. It’s the test of time. Every year is different whether you have injuries or other factors, but we’ve been able to field representative, excellent, contending teams. We’ve been in the hunt.”

Sabean said he was “proud and thankful. I don’t take the extension lightly. Baseball is a tough game to succeed in and I’m really thankful. Being one of the original employees of the ownership group … the group has changed, they recognized our dedication and our accomplishments.”

He also mentioned that his wife, Amanda, is due to give birth to a child on Wednesday. All told, it’ll be Sabean’s sixth child — all boys.

“So the timing couldn’t be better,” he said.

Andrew Baggarly

Andrew Baggarly has documented the most eventful era in San Francisco Giants baseball history, having covered the team since 2004 for th​ree major media outlets including the San Jose Mercury News and the Oakland Tribune​. This is his 20th season as a baseball writer.
​Baggarly is the author of the bestselling book, A Band of Misfits: Tales of the 2010 San Francisco Giants, and the newly published Giant Splash: Bondsian Blasts, World Series Parades and Other Thrilling Moments By the Bay. Baggarly’s other notable life accomplishments include running as the Bratwurst in the Milwaukee Sausage Race and becoming a three-time Jeopardy! champion.

Can’t say I’m overly ecstatic about Huff in the OF. I like Huff, I appreciate what he did for us in ’10, but I’m not convinced he can be our LF every day in ’12. Maybe he’ll prove me wrong.

I want to see the Brandons and Nate out there far more often than not. I think Nate should play every day. I could see getting some insurance and/or a RHB for the middle infield. Belt I’d like to see out there the majority of the time, either in the OF or at 1B. Preferably at 1B.

Bochy’s Daddy

Baseball is such a game of patience, of waiting and seeing, of fielding a balanced club that can adapt to the long season’s many changes—and, of course, of momentum shifts. Because of this unique makeup, this sport demands a steady hand on the tiller at all times, for which Bochy is admirably suited; while at the same time it requires a savvy GM who knows what buttons to push at the right times—a job that has often confounded Mr. Sabean. Guess we’ll just have to….wait and see.

primetimedonna

Dinero

Agree about Huff in the OF. Although I know how you feel about Belt at 1B I’d still rather see him playing in LF and spelling at 1B in day games after night and late innings for defense. If we’re going to be paying Huff’s $10M and he shows major improvement over last year it seems a waste to keep him on the bench. Not sure those aging legs can handle the OF on a regular basis. If Belt is as good a player as we think, I don’t see why he can’t adjust between the OF & 1B to keep his bat in the lineup. He is still a rookie and may need that LF experience if Posey needs to move to 1B.

Definitely agree about Nate, and hope to see a lot of Craw even if he doesn’t play every game.

Only problem is that doesn’t alleviate the problem of being heavy on LH batters.

Bochy’s Daddy

Huff would seem to be odd man out if he doesn’t recapture some of his 2010 stuff—leaving Pill and Belt to take turns—the OF one day, the next day at 1B. Freddy’s andPosey’s ability to return to form, and Crawford’s ability to get his BA up into the .250+ range seem to hold many of the keys to 2012.

primetimedonna

Has Pill got much OF experience? Thought we might see him in the Mexican league to check that out.

primetimedonna @ 3:03 – agree completely. Assuming we don’t get CB, I would probably start the year with Belt in LF and Huff at 1B. I would give Belt a very long leash and Huff a pretty short one, with Pill ready to step in. If by some odd chance we do get CB, that would change things dramatically of course. And of course we would want to re-assess after ST, see where everyone’s at.

Anti-Lasorda

Primetime,

That’s all Baggs there. Sabean made no such pronouncements but Aubrey should be ready to shag fly balls come February…..

To me if they flush Torres, and it looks like that’s a pretty good chance, and you assume the Graham/Christian winner is the 4th OF then you have to look at either leading Cabrera off or having it done from the SS position.

I don’t think Crawford is an ideal lead off candidate, but they could try him. In the big leagues he showed good plate disicipline and walked at a high enough rate. If he can layoff the high cheese…. But that is a HUGE gamble and if they go with Crawford, you have to assume they bury him in the 8th whole.

That lends one to believe you need to find your leadoff guy among the outfielders. Huff and Schierholtz are no go, Cabrera is not ideal, so to me that left room for Torres to platoon with Graham/Christian winner as that CF leadoff role and let one of them earn the job everyday. Torres returns to 2010, great, Graham/Christian pushes him out, great. That means pushing Cabrera back to left, and having Huff displace Belt. You could also push Cabrera into RF and bench Schierholtz. Offensively that might be the best move.

Huff playing Pat Burrell in Left, Melky playing Cody Ross in RF ad Schierholtz back to his familiar 2010 role. Play in 125-130 games with about 220 ABS mostly as a defensive replacement for Huff and pushing Cabrera to LF. THAT I can see happening 110%……

So if you play Crawford, you have to decide to bench either Belt or Schierholtz….

Or you sign a free agent SS who can leadoff and play Belt, Huff and Schierholtz….

Your choice.

fabiani1233

Staying the course?

Betting the season on a rebound by F. Sanchez, Huff, and Posey?

Hoping Melky Cabrera’s .332 BABIP could be sustained?

Imagining Beltran wasn’t the second best hitter on the Giants at the conclusion of the season?

Assuming Barry Zito won’t be an automatic loss every fifth game?

Magic Inside?

DAMN STRAIGHT!

The Wisdom Cow

I didn’t think I could get more depressed after learning Bochy was extended.

I think it is pretty clear the organization is going to embrace the Baer Money Making philosophy. They will extend the marque pitching, hoping that it will ensure being in contention. After that, scrap heap and ruin rookies that don’t force their way into starting roles.

Neukon was canned for re-investing into the future of the team. Baer et al are about profits NOW.

The decline will be harsh and significant. They will trade low on prospects they failed to mature. They will ride a career sub-.500 manager that is horrible at in game management just because he has been around.

Oh, and guess what, someone with money will be buying the Dodgers, while a smart guy is building from the ground up in San Diego, and Arizona has already shown they have a manager that can motivate his players.

Of course, they’ll make money. Damn 1%ers!

ScottA

Overall I’d have to admit that the Giants are probably right in extending Sabean and Bochy, despite their obvious weaknesses (as Baggarly pointed out in his last post).

I would point out, however, that their “resign the pitchers first and be damned with the offense” might really, really backfire in the next 1-3 years. Don’t they realize that the pitching might not WANT to stick around if they don’t get some run support???

Pretty soon the Giants could be looking at a below-league-average offense AND no pitching if Lincecum, Cain, et al jump ship! >:(

primetimedonna

Dinero

Agree. Hopefully we’ll have answers after Spring Training, but last year Huff fooled us with a fantastic Spring Training and after opening day, not so much! Let’s hope that odd even year nonsense actually holds up this year.

Beltran will make things so much more interesting, won’t he! We live in interesting times! If Pill can offer some versatility with some OF mixed in (if no Beltran that is) that would help with our RH bat!

Yeah, the same decision makers that decided that Tim Lincecum, Matt Cain, Madison Bumgarner, Brian Wilson, Sergio Romo, Buster Posey, Pablo Sandoval, are keepers when there were all sorts of Giants fans willing to trade them for one thing or another, without realizing what we got here in the players we already got. Sabean knew what we got and he kept them instead of trading them away (think Beane wouldn’t mind having Ethier and CarGon back?).

I would also note here that Sabean is not the one who said to platoon Belt and Pill at firstbase, that was speculation by Baggerly, so if you don’t like that idea, maybe you should direct your angst towards the right person.

primetimedonna

Anti

Some interesting observations! As we’ve said, it so much depends on who’s bat stays hot or heats up!! Lots of possibilities! Sure be nice if they all would heat up and we’d be having to try to make room for everyone in the lineup. Realistic, not really, but it could happen! Now that would be a nice problem to have!!! ;>)

The Wisdom Cow

Those same guys that gave up a prospect for Beltran, put him in RF with Bochy’s number, grabbed Cabrera and demoted Crawford?

Esquire Joe

I’m not convinced that they’re not still going after Beltran or one of the other “big dollar” free agents. No inside info or special knowledge.

It’s just that, if I were in Sabean’s shoes, and I wanted to make sure I locked up my two big stud pitchers for as long as I could (which is more a worry WRT Lincecum, as he seems to be the one more likely to want out of SF at some point), I think I would say exactly what Sabean did, no matter what my strategy was for offensive free agents.

“Hey guys, pitching is our priority, and you two are going to get great deals, because we’re not going to address anything else until we get you signed, and we’ll sacrifice money we might otherwise spend on offense to do it.”

I’d then proceed exactly as I had planned to with other free agents and if any rumors leaked about those negotiations before my big stud pitchers were signed, I’d point to the previous statement and claim that those were just rumors.

Might have the added benefit of discouraging bidding wars for hitters other teams know the Giants are interested in.

Could just be wishful thinking, but I don’t take Sabean’s statement as any real indication that they’re not going after offensive FAs.

Sabean is usually a pretty straight shooter. If he says they aren’t going after any big names, they more than likely aren’t. Beltran is probably the biggest name that’s even remotely possible, and I would say that’s probably unlikely as well. Maybe a guy like Cuddyer, or Furcal.

And yes, I would bet the season on a bounce back from Sanchez and Posey, not so much Huff. I would also bet on improvements from Belt, Nate and Pablo. Pablo 2012 > Pablo 2011. He could be headed for an MVP-like year if he can stay healthy.

I would say, without Beltran, we will lose a bit of offense at one position (although gain a whole mess of defense) and we will pick up offense in CF (Melky), LF (Belt), 3B (Pablo), 2B (Sanchez) and C (Posey). Even if we break even as SS (Craw) and 1B (Huff/Pill) I still say we are substantially better at the plate — which means we have a legitimate chance to win the division, or at least get in as a wild card. And once we’re in, of course, the thoroughbreds take over.

Cow – I’ve read this blog (and the comments) for a couple of years now and I generally enjoy and find myself in line with your analyses; however this time I wanted to interject.

The Beltran move was one you dream of as a fan, and one that rarely happens for most teams. He gave up a prospect for the best pure hitter on the market at that time. Unfortunately, the move didn’t work out in total, but I think you want your GM to make those moves. If your team is devastated by injuries, and you’re trying to stay in contention, you want your GM to make that move.

The Cabrera move is another story. I get what he was doing – Cabrera had a history of being in the post season, and I think he was looking for that spark (a la Burrell). Plus, I think he was cheap (but I can be wrong there). It turned out to be a total flop, but again, he seemed to be trying to do anything to keep in contention. I don’t know if I can fault that.

One thing I’m on the fence about is Bochy. I would love to see the kids play, and I think Crawford is a great SS, but if I’m in his position, I’d want to play known quantities – and those seem to be veterans. In hindsight, I can see why you shouldn’t do that, but I can absolutely understand why he does it. To a fault, arguably.

Esquire Joe

I will say that, even though I have the same knee-jerk reaction a lot of others have to the same old “we’re going to concentrate on pitching and won’t go after big FA hitters” story, I have to keep reminding myself that this team still plays in the NL West. The D-Backs had a great year, but I can’t see their pitching staff repeating their performance of 2011.

The Giants, with a bunch of injuries and very little help from Beltran down the stretch, was still in the division race until nearly the end of the season. You can’t really blame them for trying to make marginal changes to the offense, and if they’re in the race come August, go after the right trades.

Sure, it would be great to be a Yankees or Red Sox fan, but this is life in the rest of MLB.

mitchvman

What a shame if the Giants really are delusional in thinking they have the slightest chance to complete in the post-season with this horrible offense. Furthermore, if they sign their obligatory “Band-Aids” to round out the group.

You have P. Fielder & Jose Reyes out there! The “usual suspects” will most certainly not be involved in negotiations this year. Either of these guys would make the Giants offense legitimately threatening and give them an excellent chance to get back to the World Series. As equally important is the fact that neither one of these guys are as expensive ad originally thought! (You could probably get Reyes for 6 years between 90-110 million) (Fielder 8 years 160)

Yet here we are, awaiting the announcement of the signing of Rafael Furcal to a 3 year deal and David DeJesus to a 4 year deal!

Yippee!

ScottA

I really, really hope that — short of a game-changer like Reyes — the Giants do NOT sign a free agent shortstop. Because most of the guys out there who are available are on the wrong side of 30.

Admit it: You all KNOW that once Bochy has a veteran option, he’ll play that guy to the detriment of the team and keep Crawford on the bench, day after day after day. Period. Bochy just won’t change.

And given the choice between a weak-hitting, weak-defense skills-dropping-every-year veteran and a weak-hitting but solid-to-superb defensive shortstop like Crawford… I’ll take Crawford EVERY. SINGLE. TIME. At least a kid like him has a CHANCE at getting better and not spiraling downward inevitably towards retirement like all the other available SS free agents out there!!!

fabiani1233

Esquire Joe, you’re amazing.

“very little help from Beltran down the stretch”

An OPS of 1.134 in roughly 100 PA’s the last month of the season is “very little”?

“still in the division race until nearly the end of the season”

The Giants never got closer than 5.0 games back of the D-Backs the whole month of September.

“The D-Backs had a great year, but I can’t see their pitching staff repeating their performance of 2011.”

The D-Backs are a young team on the rise and have very good starting pitching prospects headed by Trevor Bauer waiting in the pipeline for next season.

I love how everyone just assumes that Reyes or Fielder would even want to play in SF. I love how that’s just a given. How we could just offer them exactly the same amount of money as…say…Miami, and they would magically come play here. Especially a guy like Reyes who, as he demonstrated by taking himself out of a game to win a batting title, is extremely concerned with his personal statistics.

Hitman

“No big splash”. Heh,heh,heh! Enjoy those w.s. tees and sweats because there won’t be anymore! Heh,heh.heh!

Same old, same old. We had one great amazing year and now the brass is going to milk it for years to come. Huff at first or left is not acceptable if he continues to hit like last year. How much time do you give him? Two months? Milky is another undisciplined no walking average outfielding poor baseball IQ that the Giants have shipped in here for years. Please tell me it will be fun to see him swinging at pitches that Rowand takes !!!!

The real good idea I heard is trading Figgins for Zito. One has a chance to really turn his game around and the other should be a joga instructor.Sign Cain and Lincecum and pray the young studs Belt, Crawford and Pill have big years

Sharkalchemy

yesh…

and bidding against Florida with no state income tax also creates problems for the G’s. Offering the same dollar amount doesn’t cut it and how can they realistically overbid for the biggest free agents? When the park has a reputation for being where homers go to die with a likely drop in B.A. for anyone, the G’s are forced into a certain gameplan.

No excuse for screwing up prospects, but luring free agent hitters here would be problematic for any GM.

The Wisdom Cow

dobber, had Beltran not had a contract denying the ability to offer arbitration, then yes, dream acquisition. Instead, it was gross overpayment. Second, the Bochy decision to GIVE him RF disregarding what Nate had done for the team up to that point and giving him his number screamed that Bochy had no clue about the nature of the clubhouse.

Tito, just stop, seriously. And Uribe, Huff and Burrell had more to do that Championship than Bochy.

——————-

Same blind obedience by the sheep and delusions by the Tito, some good discussion lines here and there, but for an inactive Giant off season, it’s all just painful to think on. I can live with Sabean, but not when he hitches his wagon to Bochy.

Seriously, remember the FEELING. Remember when you KNEW they would come back, get an opportunity, and cash in. Remember seeing that same KNOWING written on the face of the guys in the dug out, that collective confidence. It remained for so long last year even as some characters changed. Remember the HUGE HR by Crawford that pulled the entire clubhouse out of the despair that was Posey’s injury?

The Band of Misfits? Don’t dismiss the “Band” portion of that label. I don’t think Bochy ever really understood it, being just another one of the “misfits” in the pot. They had that “TEAM” mentality. Bochy opted to go with a “Big Dog” “Savior”+ “Experience” philosophy that created a void of youth (meaning rookies others mentored) and completely changed the nature of the club in the process.

The funniest part was that I was one that wanted to sell Huff and Uribe when they were hot, before that run starting in MIL in 2010. They started winning, and I ditched the idea, admitting that these “misfits” earned their chance. They earned their shot. Then last year, the team was WINNING with Crawford at SS and Nate in RF, but decided to make changes.

Is it sinking in? They did not do what got them their before. They went back to what had Bochy a sub .500 manager, instead, insisting he was “playing the hot hand” all along.

Can the team still win in spite of Bochy? Sure. If the pitching carries the day and timely hitting pulls out some wins. But just like 2010, everything will have to fall perfectly into place. The odds on that make another 50 year wait likely.

Cyrus

Baggs– what about someone like Fukudome in place of Schierholtz? He plays good D and routinely posts 370 OBPs. He could hit lead-off to take that pressure off of Cabrera. And he shouldn’t cost too much on a 1 yr deal.

Hey it could be worse, we could be Sox fans. $300MM in free agents last year (how’d that work out by the way?) and now they have Bobby flipping Valentine as their manager. No thanks.

Jay

Offer Huff to Seattle for Chone Figgins. Two bad contracts ( Huff $11 mil and Figgins $17 mill for next two years) Figgins would give the Giants flexibility at 3rd/2nd and free up Belt to play more. Not to mention a leadoff hitter. When Torres was playing well he ignited the offense. The Mariners might even give money in the deal.

hibcbcbc

Here is the bottom line, and anyone who disagrees is in absolute and complete denial. This is the message Baer and the 2010 Exceptions to the Rule (“Kick the Tire Sabes” and “Can’t We Extend Orlando Cabrera for a Decade? Bochy”) said today:

*We like making tons of money as a franchise. And we like that we will continue to do so without investing in the worst offensive team in baseball history. Please open your pocketbooks again and again. But we aren’t going to do it at all. Thanks.

*With Sabes and Boch getting extensions, there is absolutely no accountability here other than that we have some great pitchers that people other than Sabes and Boch scouted and drafted.

*Please buy wholeheartedly into the belief that we are “adding pieces” by banking on the 100% return to form of a catcher who suffered one of the most gruesome leg injuries in baseball history, and a 35 year old 2nd baseman who has not proven he can stay healthy for the last 4 years of his career. Thank you again for buying it. Open Pocketbooks please. BTW: Did we mention Pablo got Lasek surgery?

*Did we mention Sabes has no accountability for improving the offense? Just wanted to clarify that if you didn’t hear it the first 10 times.

*Please cheer and buy more stuff as we ride our “gold standard” horses into eventual Tommy John surgery with 15-15 records alongside their 2.71 ERAs.

*Melky Cabrera. Yes, he was a fat tub who couldn’t hit, couldn’t get on base, and couldn’t play before last year. But he is the real deal. Besides, I am Brian Sabean: I just got an extension and there is no consequence to me if I sell low and buy high…over…and over…and over again.

*Organizationally, we don’t want to “make a splash” on a bat because our untouchable GM can’t be trusted not to sign the 2nd coming of Edgardo Alfonso for 5 years and $100 million.

*What? You want to criticize me? Hey, we won a World Series in 2010. I have a lifetime pass to suck at my job.

Didn’t you get the memo?

Keep’n It Real

Unless I’m forgetting someone, wasn’t this essentially the same lineup that was struggling to score runs in 2011 “before” Posey and Sanchez went down? Cabrera isn’t going to turn the offense around by himself.

They need a left fielder…at a minimum. Someone whose offense will allow Crawford to play SS without an on-going scrutinization of his plate success..because runs are hard to come by.

IF they do not get this person…and the Giants lose 1-0 and 2-1 again this year…there will be backlash in the stands and in the Giants clubhouse. They better lockup Matt and Tim, because 1-0/2-1 losses will make both guys say “bye, bye baby” to the Giants. Or perhaps a trade of Brown for somebody that will be a FA in 2013.

Those guys deserve better than what this organization has to offer at this point. These guys are Hall of Fame Talents who are basically .500 pitchers because Sabean is so grossly incompetent that he can’t be trusted to sign even midlevel free agents.

And he just got an extension.

Angry Dan

#37 hibcbcbc: Thank you.

Just to expound on Sabes having no accountability on improving the offense, here are the Giants team runs scored rankings since 2005:

2005: 29th out of 30
2006: 24th out of 30
2007: 29th out of 30
2008: 29th out of 30
2009: 26th out of 30
2010: 17th out of 30
2011: 29th out of 30

Hey, at least the Giants have never finished 30th out of 30 in runs scored in the last 7 years!

A G.M. who signals his personnel plans in a media conference call is stupid. Naive. Negligent. We all know that. (surprised that Baggarly doesn’t acknowledge this)

Only Sabean knows what he’s going to do. As it should be.

And Andy is not an idiot for suggesting a possible Pill/Belt platoon at first with Huff in the OF. IF there aren’t big-ticket free agents coming, that’s the only viable way to boost the offense.

If anyone has a brilliant, realistic alternative, let’s hear it. And Josh Willingham isn’t realistic. With his 2011 numbers, he’s getting $7 million a year, if not more. Love to have him, but the numbers don’t make sense.

hibcbcbc

KezarFan,

I am a big “data” guy. We actually do know what Sabean will do.

You want to know what Sabean is going to do? I think Angry Dan spelled it out perfectly. READ THE DATA. IT DOES NOT LIE.

2005: 29th out of 30
2006: 24th out of 30
2007: 29th out of 30
2008: 29th out of 30
2009: 26th out of 30
2010: 17th out of 30
2011: 29th out of 30

hibcbcbc

KezarFan, Willingham hit, what, almost 30 HRs and 95 RBIs in a pitchers park (Oakland). How is he not worth $7 million? Sabes paid Rowand $15 million who didn’t put that many HRs up IN 4 YEARS.

Huff makes $12 mil for way less production. Ross made $5 mil last year for less than half that many homeruns.

Not sure how Willingham wouldn’t be worth 7 mil. They would have to give up a draft pick. But given Sabean’s track record of developing minor league hitting, who cares?

foothills ryan

KezarFan says:
November 29th, 2011 at 5:42 pm

“A G.M. who signals his personnel plans in a media conference call is stupid. Naive. Negligent. We all know that. (surprised that Baggarly doesn’t acknowledge this)

Fielder at 8 for $160M is a steal. I couldn’t trade Huff or even Belt fast enough…. Getting the second best power hitter in the game, in his prime ages 28-35, for under $20M per season.

But what this team really needs, more than anything is a real base stealing, table setting leadoff man to stick infront of Freddy. When he’s healthy, Reyes is that guy…

I don’t know if my stones are big enough to gamble six years on that guy with his injury history. And when speed guys like him go, they go fast……

At least with Fielder, he may get fat and slow, but the dude will still rake lke his dad.

To me, if we’re going to live in Fantasyland, I want to drop the coin on Pujols. I want the absolute best. I wanna watch a guarenteed 1st ballot HOF’er in the last 3 years of his prime and watch in awe as he hits one into the glove in left center or bounces one off the Coke Bottle (hopefully not picking off the 500 kids lined up to slide down)

Nevermind he has a lifetime .450 BA with a lifetime 1.1108 OPS versus Kershaw…… Hey is we change those four games last year I wonder what happens?

The club seems to have enough options in the OF, although I would prefer more of a track star than Cabrera for the big CF at AT&T and I would like a RH hitter with an excellent glove to platoon with Crawford. A RH stick like Burrell a la 2010 to throw in the mix would be nice, but I think that will be Brett Pill. I would expect Sabean to address both of these holes with what’s left after he get’s Timmy and Cainer nailed down.

Torres is the most intersting test case for me on the go/no -gos for arbitration and will tell me how Sabean is invisioning the OF next year.

I would be inclined this season to fill as much of the bench with kids. That means Keppinger, Fontenot, Whiteside alll get bus tickets…. Might mean Burriss, Gillespie, Sanchez all mnake the club.. I wouldn’t count in Burriss.. but you get the idea.

Would I like a .300/40/130 guy like Pujols, you bet. It’s just not going to happen as long a Charles Johnson runs the club like a business. And he does. Don’t like it, be a Yanks fan like everyone else

Coming up….

Pujols, Panda and Posey

That’s an inning I want to see… A guy can dream can’t he?

foothills ryan

Angry Dan, I’m sure you’re aware of the title in ’10, the 88 Wins in ’09 and the lead in the NL West until August.

Perhaps you can post the Giants ranking in Runs Allowed for the same span.

When you allot your draft picks towards high end pitching, hitting in the system suffers as a consequence. Factor in the run environment of the ballpark and it’s no surprise the Giants have been in the lower tier since Bonds faded and left the scene. I recall the offense being more on the robust side with Bonds, Kent and Burks. Sabean certainly had something to do with that.

in 2010, the Giants has an average offesne and won the World Series…….they scored 697 runs.

Last year and AVERAGE offense score 694 runs in MLB.

So the only question worth asking is this….

Does the return of Posey & Sanchez, a full season (hopefully) of Panda & Nate, and the acquisition of Cabrera lead to 124 more runs?

If you think yes, you have enough offense…..

If you think no, you better have an idea on where to find them.

Angry Dan

Foothill Ryan,

Brian Sabean has been completely inept in building an offense for 7 straight years. The data does not lie. It takes more than great pitching. Bottom line – they didn’t make the playoffs in 2004, 2005, 2006, 2007, 2008, 2009, and 2011. Guess where all of those offenses ranked! Hint: they were both offensive and rank, and not in a good way. The only year they made the playoffs was in 2010 when the offense was league average, thanks to some fluke years by Huff and Burrell. That’s the most frustrating thing about watching Sabean try to build an offense for 2012. It only needs to be league average with this great pitching to be a World Series contender. Instead, he’s cobbling together another bunch of OBP-challenged hitters hoping for more career seasons to somehow get this offense to league average. It’s not just on Sabean either. The ownership has clearly sent a message, through their ousting of Neukom, that all they are interested in is charging dynamically-inflated ticket prices to the fans and selling panda hats while wasting this great pitching staff.

We, as fans, just forget how awful Ross, Rowand, Torres & Huff were with RISP last season, how short the games were everytime the SS/C/P inning came up to bat. If one of them got on, the leadoff spot was up next with it’s under .300 OBP.

This assumes the Giants get nothing more from Crawford than it did Te-nada or O-Cab. Or that Belt doesn’t have a breakout season, that Torres doesn’t find the ‘Magic” of 2010.. etc. etc. etc.

Alot can go right, alot can go wrong. It could happen, and I’ll be a sucker and watch……

I think we have the potential to score those 694 runs… I would like a few tweaks so that I know it…

well put. It’s a horse race, not a sure thing. I bet they play some pretty darn good baseball along the way, as well.

Anti-Lasorda

Channel,

No, that’s the Pittsburgh Pirates!

Ben Lomond

All that was spoken today by the Giant’s brass is not necessarily true. Remember this is a chess match pitting one GM against another and pitting the GM’s against the players’ agents…they certainly are not going to “show all their cards” before the winter meetings…I anticipate one or two decent trades and maybe some interesting signings next week…should be fun!

foothills ryan

Anti- said “looks like No on Ross”

I think they are in a holding pattern on Ross as they maneuver on Beltran. Unless somebody scoops him up, I’d say he’s very much in the picture. It’s hard to read between the lines on their pursuit of Beltran but I think the trump is the transaction cost to obtain Beltran in the first place. Sabean probably has that hanging over his head. I don’t think it is a Damoclean sword, but it’s probably hanging over him nonetheless.

fesnyc

Dear Mssrs Baer, Sabean, and Bochy,

we have the best pitching staff, top to bottom, in franchise history.

2010 shows that if we get a moderate amount of hitting, we can go all the way. 2011 shows that weak hitting means we dont go all the way

since you cant expect to have a healthy, top notch pitching staff forever, why WOULDNT you spend more to bring in some hitters? great pitching doesnt last forever. Make hay while the sun shines.

But what this team really needs, more than anything is a real base stealing, table setting leadoff man

A-L, crushing as usual. We have that guy, he goes by Brown, but he’s not quite ripe yet. I’m alright with letting Cabrera do the job in ’12. It sure woudl be nice to have a backup, maybe Torres, but it seems to me that either Christian or Graham are pretty much the same player as Torres right now, and a whole lot cheaper.

WoW, we DO know that the Extra_Baggers are off life support…
“Luck is what happens when preparation meets opportunity.” Bochy may not have not have been THE reason for 2010’s success but he skippered the Titanic into safe Harbor…Defining the Whys/How Come Bochy-Sabean were renewed will never be clear to the naysayers and will always be clear to those who applauded… I mean why did Jim Beiheim initially support fired long time assistant/molester Bernie Fine…apparently because he felt compelled within his own belief system.

If someone in the Charles Johnson investors group (with more brains then Ray Ratto) had wanted Svengali Baer (his nickname at Cal) to not extend the two, it would not have happened.

Wisdom: We already have PacMan very unhappy (digestive reaction in his mouth) we need YOU to stay the course…

Mitchvman, Angry Dan and Hibcbcbc have brought up great points…fodder…The Giants Clubs have been bottom feeders with Sabean’s acquisitions but “me thinks” the 2012 Club going forward will actually invoke the lineup spirit-mode of one Dorrel Norman Elvert Whitey Herzog – going forward. 81 games minimum will be played at Willie Howard Mays Jr. Field at ATT park @ China Basin. WHM’s field configuration sensibilities screams out at creating a lineup that takes advantage of dimensions were Pitchers love to Pitch and supposedly hitters do NOT want to “come here” thus hit here.

Sabean has more SCOUT in him than GM. That said, hopefully Evans, Tidrow, Alou (yes Felipe), John Barr, Tony Siegle, Jeremy Shelley, Fred Stanley, Lou Pinella, Jim Riggleman, Joe Lefebvre, and wait for it wait for it = Yeshayah Goldfarb (WHO, “oh the SABR guy” aka quantitative analysis) will keep the Sabean from morphing back to the older version of Sabey-Sabes….

I don’t think Sabean’s edict…Sticker-Shock Moves is anything to be alarmed about. It’s not picking up veterans to fill in that has been the problem… It is that THOSE particular vets that have come OUR way were done! What is a Veteran anyway? 28 to 34? MLB is filled with Vets who have helped their respective clubs. Newbie’s? Let ’em earn their stripes while ALSO failing. Just when they are succeeding make it be Up the Gaps at Willie Mays Field vs. 225 ft fly balls…

Something is IN THE WORKS because Mr. Bochy said today that Posey is GOING TO play first base. There they finally stated that fact. That said they have to break the log jam somewhere. If Burrell, DeRo (Mrs. DeRo is staying though), Ross, Torres are going, surely Huff can’t be far behind (Figgins/Seattle). Pill hit EVERY conceivable two strike out pitch HARD…somewhere for SF to consider NOT having him somewhere in the equation. Pill will be here. Aubrey…nice knowing you.

Mike Benjamin

If you read between the lines of what was said today, there will be no FA signings this offseason because of cost and years. Sabes is telling us than any additional moves to strengthen the offense, if any, will involve trades like the Cabrera deal. Until this team burns off the Huff/FSanchez/Rowand contracts after this season, there won’t be any major FA moves.

And the ownership will sit back and count the cash, building that rainy day fund.

foothills ryan

Maybe Sabey-Sabes is on the phone with Kenny Williams.

Talking about Carlos Quentin. He’s going to want Gary Brown. But Sabes says no. Sabes doesn’t have a whole lot to work with. Maybe Peguero or Tommy Joseph, and a little Dan Runzler.

Any trade of Huff would involve paying most of his way there. Huff + 7-8 million in exchange for not much.

I’d say it’s wise to never expect a big name FA in SF, not just this year.

Not a position player anyways. There just aren’t that many guys who will come here by choice, being that we play in a pitcher’s park and the weather gets a little chilly. No, our best bet is to draft and develop a bat (or three), which is exactly what we did with Pablo and Posey, and exactly what we have a chance to do with Belt. I suppose trades are also an option, but it’s got to start with the farm, with quality prospects.

FAs just aren’t and won’t really ever be the solution here in the city by the bay.

pacman68

So basically we are stuck with Sabean dumpster diving in hopes to get lucky again. Bochy playing aging veteran all year cause they give us the best chance to win. We won’t be seeing Gary Brown till 2014 and he will be 27? This is what we still need.

— a number five starter cause Vogelsong may be a fluke.
— a solid back up catcher in case Posey is not ready.
— a SS in case Stamos tanks.
— another good bat in the lineup.
— A closer in case Wilson’s arm falls off. Which I think it will.

LOTS OF HOLES.

pacman68

At least we don’t have Bobby Valentine. YUK! Seriously Boston?

Spd1200

they are spending 130M and there are about 20 other teams shopping for hitters so unless Sabean can be real creative this is the Giants for ’12.

The Wisdom Cow

Don’t worry, Sabean has purchased the MLBTR app so he’ll be informed as soon as players are put on waivers next year. He’s in perfect position to improve the offense.

———————

A-L, I am with you that the current roster has enough, but there are some huge presumptions there. Huff has a good year, and sits if he does not (and every other Bochism vet over youth issue bound to come up along the way). No big injuries.

So, on paper, I agree that the team CAN do well enough. In reality, I fear the likelihood of obstacles (injuries and/or Bochy) will mean the team does ALMOST enough.

Ownership is clearly satisfied with this. I am not. I want the team I root for to be one that SHOULD do well enough to win. I want owners that feel that way as well.

I am not saying they need to go NY or BOS on spending, but that they should have long term plans toward consistent success. Things like Nuekom investing in the minors had me excited. The hope that everything falls into place and it all just works out as it did in 2010 doesn’t.

The writing is on the wall. The same obstacles that happen each year will happen again (though hopefully not a top four starter injury). At least one of our older position players will get hurt and/or struggle and Sabean will replace him with an old guy off waivers or low level trade hoping to be just good enough, rather than use opportunities like last year to play the young guys and play for the long term.

I see the brass as waiting for Brown and hoping that, as 2013 comes to a close, the prospects of Posey, Sandoval, Brown, and (Belt or Pill) will be enough offense to convince Lincecum and Cain not to leave. When you think about it, that leaves room for an awful lot to go wrong via injury or simply not blossoming talent. What other young guys are going to be contributing come 2013, 2014? with Bochy developing them?

I like the comment about giving a LONG leash to Brandon Belt and a SHORT leash to Aubrey Huff. I’m still baffled why A) Brandon Belt is not viewed as the Top Prospect he should be and B) why he is not the obvious option for LF. He’s young, he’s got decent speed, he’s got a decent arm and did not really embarass himself out there last season. Put Belt in LF and leave the kid alone–put him in text connection with Will Clark and may be The Thrill can do a bit of long distance mentor–whatever–just leave Belt alone and let him play. His strike zone judgement and plate discipline are advanced for his age and bode well for future performance–he’s gonna strike out abit–RELAX–it’s okay. He can settle into FB in the next year or two if need be–but as we have found out, FB is always an easy position to fill–it’s at the very end of the defensive continuum.

Reading Boston wants a mid-tier prospect for Jeb Lowrie–after all the stoopid ideas for a utility infielder already sought, this one makes sense. Come on sabs, coming off the Melky deal, this would be a sound follow up acquisition.

All we really need is one more big bat for RF–I sure would have liked Grady Sizemore (who I think was pretty much committed to going back to Cleveland) or Michael Cuddyer. Maybe sabs will pull off another deal. We’d also probably see increased offense and probably a bit of defense at 2B if Conor Gillaspie was moved there–Baggs had previously wrote Gallaspie was going to work out at 2B during the off season. He, like Belt, has done all he can in the minors and now needs to make a contribution at the major league level.

If done right, the Giants pretty much have the pieces to return to a league average offense–which is all they need to win the division and be a threat for another World Series Championship. From there, we can continue to look to build our offense into the future.

To me, for the Giants, that’s got to be through the farm. Either by way of trades or actually playing our talented young players. To me, that’s really the crux of the Bochy issue. He’s got two years now to show that he can turn guys like Belt and Brown into everyday big leaguers. If he can’t, then it’s time to start talking about a move. I personally probably wouldn’t have extended him, I would have waited to see what he can do development-wise in ’12.

E.L

I’ve only been following this blog since August this year, but wish I read the comments when the Giants won in 2010 for a better idea on some fans’ thoughts, praises or concerns then.

Fans still want the Giants to pursue top notch hitters that may/ may not perform as well at ATT. Even the Giants that did well in 2010 didn’t match their stats last year. 2011 was just -not-their-year. The Giants are still trying to pay off Zito, Rowand type of contracts and keep their biggest contributors, the pitching staff.

I think the Giants are freaked out, getting locked up in big contracts again and get zip. The best bet to get those kind of players is when Zito gets paid off, so we fans just have to wait.

I doubt Sabean will tolerate another offensive F grade and if Posey, Sanchez, Sandoval, Huff, Schierholtz don’t perform to their standards, he’ll make bigger deals sooner than later.

Yes, we can’t wait to hear what they actually do to improve their offense but it seems we really won’t know what we get till the 2012 season actually begins.

I’m glad to hear Bochy and Sabean got extensions. I’m hungry for another WS parade, I’m sure they are too.

I like your Lowrie idea, although its Jed, not Jeb. 😉 I think Jeb Lowrie was an old actor on the Beverly Hillbillies…

Question: Isn’t Lowrie coming off multiple injury years?

Follow up question: You said: All we really need is one more big bat for RF–I sure would have liked Grady Sizemore (who I think was pretty much committed to going back to Cleveland) or Michael Cuddyer.

So…I take it you WANT no part of Nate and his glove in RF?

ClutchUp

Lefty says:November 29th, 2011 at 9:32 pm I can see bright…you get the idea!

Your kidding me right? That’s the quote you chose to dust off 🙁 – after Keepin It Real…JStreet and Total Fan have been preachin’ their gospel to us about our very own Hannibal Lecter….

Can’t let you cut in line anymore at ATT’s restrooms… 😉

Go Aggies…Go Occupy UCD…

ClutchUp

hibcbcbc says:November 29th, 2011 at 5:38 pmHonestly, Lincecum and Cain shouldn’t sign extensions until the Brain (oxymoron) Trust starts adding real offensive weaponThose guys deserve better than what this organization has to offer at this point. These guys are Hall of Fame Talents who are basically .500 pitchers because Sabean is so grossly incompetent that he can’t be trusted to sign even midlevel free agents.And he just got an extension.

@hibcx3…almost as inept as the St Francis Lancer Football Program…not.

Look, Bochy and Sabean are a done deal. Maybe posting resolutions would help us Nov_Starving Baseball_Fans come in from the ledge.

I’ll post a resolution regarding SF Lancers. No more Navarro.

JD4SF

@ CU “Something is IN THE WORKS because Mr. Bochy said today that Posey is GOING TO play first base. There they finally stated that fact. That said they have to break the log jam somewhere.”
======

I missed that. Was there clarification included, like anticipating Buster needing to take breaks from C? Or was the implication that Buster was intended to be the starting 1B?

If indeed the plan for 2012 anticipates a fair amount of time with Buster at 1B, there will indeed be a bigger logjam. And a need for a solid C.

Mavo

Glad to see my neighbors in my building are extended thru 2013!! LOL

And I really enjoyed all the gnashing of teeth and whining on the blog today after the announcement. I totally disagree with that by the way and feel both Sabean and Bochy are doing a fine job of leading the Giants back to the playoffs.

When I read all the whining about why a big $$$ FA hitter is not going to be signed, I am reminded of a great comment to me by the late great Harmon “Buzz” Burns. I asked him why the Giants didn’t sign V Guerrero back in 2003 and Harmon turned to me and said “Are YOU going to want your ticket prices doubled to pay his salary?” I shook my head and he said “That’s why we did not sign him!”

The Giants are done signing big time FA’s to long term deals and after the Zito/Rowand fiascoes who can blame them. This team is being built on pitching and any improved offense is going to have to come from Pablo, Posey and Belt … with a bounce back from Huff.

The Wisdom Cow

And yet, they signed that Bonds kid to big time FA long term deal back in 1993 . . .

I’m thinking that is a history to repeat. They should set their sights on another Pittsburgh Pirate outfielder as soon as he is too rich for their blood. You know, the one Bochy didn’t think was an All Star.

Mavo

Wisdom Cow … that was BEFORE they got burned with deals to Zito and Rowand… also they did not have pitchers that they have to budget to retain in the next few years. I think 130 million is more than respectable to field a contending team in 2012.

GFaninTx

I think 130 million is more than respectable to field a contending team in 2012.

Not when you have about 40 Mil+ tied up in Zito/Rotard/Huff

GFaninTx

Whats the point of having a DOMINANT pitching staff again when you can’t get men on base or drive them in???

I seriously tatse bile in my mouth knowing that melonhead and Witless are coming back in addition to the money grubing “whore” Larry Baer

absolutely sickening

Obrother

Should be interesting next couple of weeks. All the Giants need is for both Huff and Torres to return to 2010 form. Will it happen- its a crap shoot but is possible. I really think both of them got World Seriesitis- putting pressure to perform after winning WS. A year removed from WS and I think both will play 2010 standard. I hope right because like many of you have said Cain and Timmy will bolt if we play like 2011 because the frustration level of pitching a great game and getting a loss takes the fun out of the game for them. I hope the Giants take a chance on Torres for at least the first couple of months of season. Also hope the Giants are. It showing all cards and maybe they have 10 mil in kitty to get an additional hitter. Beltran would be nice but I think the Giants won’t sign anyone to a 5 6 year because those have worked out very well ala Rowand and Zito

Mike Souza

Despite any grievances I’ve had at times with Sabean or Bochy, they’ve darn sure earned their extensions. And for those screaming for the GIANTS to waste 8-10 million on the inconsistent and oft injured Josh Willingham I say please stop. I and many others have seen Sabean do that before and it never ends well.

Mike Souza

@Mavo- Everybody but the GIANTS brass and Ralph Barbieri knew the Zito and Rowand deals were absolutely terrible contracts when they were signed and that’s what is so frustrating. Rowand was not a stud player and that contract was inexcusable. Zito was already showing rapid decline from previous years. We all know Macgowan is more to blame for Zito but Sabean also had his say in that move as well. They can’t be scared to sign a player to a big contract. And I feel they will spend money and give a star player a megadeal, just not this offseason.

Husker

Since it was known that Sabean and Bochy were going to be extended, then it is good news that the extensions are for only one additional year.
I suspect Baer wanted longer but the ownership turned him down.
Does Baer have a contract? If so, how long?
Perhaps there is hope that the three stooges will be kicked out together after the mediocre-to-worse seasons that can be expected in ’12 and ’13.
I suggest that we all stop talking about the holes that need to be filled in the Giants’ lineup. There are in fact only three players who are likely to be good (Sandoval, Posey and Belt), so perhaps they are actually the holes and the remainder is the cheese.

orangeandblack

We HAVE to resign Timmy and Matt. Without them we are just an average club.

I like the mention of flexibility. It seemed like the biggest challenges the Gmen were unable to overcome were Buster’s injury and Uribe’s defection. No satisfactory replacements emerged. In that vein, I’d definitely prioritize keeping Keppinger, who is a value player. Also, we all know that if Huff scuffs, he has to be benched. Last year was too painful. Love Crawford’s mitt at SS – glad to hear he’s making strides on offense.

Don’t give a damn about Zito and Rowand’s contracts. Every club carries some duds – the Yankees would kill to only be saddled with ours.

Let’s hope everybody starts and stays healthy, and plays at least up to average.

Keep’n It Real

On ESPN Rumors…

Seeking to cut some costs in the bullpen, the San Francisco Giants are trying to move Jeremy Affeldt and/or Ramon Ramirez, says Ken Rosenthal of FoxSports.com.

The Giants exercised left-hander Affeldt’s $5 million option after the season and also signed lefty Javier Lopez to a two-year, $8.5 million contract. Ramirez is expected to earn about $1.65 million in arbitration.

The Giants would love to find a taker for starter Barry Zito and his $19 million contract for 2012, but they stand a better chance of getting some bang for their buck by dealing Affeldt or Ramirez, given that middle relievers are often in demand.

Husker

orangeandblack,

Keppinger is a negative value player (you could look it up). He might have some small value if he never, ever bats against righties and never plays in the field. The Giants may have a small spot in their cheese for such a player, sad to say.
Crawford’s “strides on offense” consist of a few PA’s in the AFL. This is totally meaningless.
You should give a damn about Zito and Rowand’s (and Huff’s) contracts. Together, they make more money than Tampa’s entire payroll. Which do you think is more valuable, the Rays or those 3 Giants? (Pardon me, I should say those 2 Giants and one ex-Giant.)

TitoMac

Giants are making a HUGE MISTAKE!

Locking up pitching with no offense is STUPID!

Boring 2-0 losses boring 1-0 wins for the casual fan is YAWWWNNN!

BORING!

Keep’n It Real

Ticket Prices Raised for Signing FAs – Baer already said the following on 11/17/11:

“Baer said season-tickets prices will rise an average of 5-6 percent, though he acknowledged that a handful of customers will see double-digit increases because the team determined that those tickets were undervalued. He said single-game ticket prices will be “pretty much in line with last year,” though they will fluctuate with dynamic pricing.”

Let’s see…WS/Playoff revenue was made (and they want to experience this again)…merchandise totals are sky-rocketing…increase in season ticket costs…and dynamic pricing that is 100% controlled by the Giants. I would imagine advertising costs for various companies has increased too.

Bottom line for me is the Zito/Rowand contract excuses have to stop.

The Giants are VERY SMART business guys and they are full of BS if they say they don’t have $$$ to sign someone. You trying to tell me they haven’t looked into creative ways to minimize the financial impact of letting Rowand (and maybe Zito) go? Yes… don’t make any more Zito/Rowand-like deals, but don’t tell me you can’t sign Beltran (at a minimum). Sign him for 3 years (if that’s what it takes) and trade him to the AL when he can’t play the field anymore. Don’t sit on your hands and expect Posey, Huff, Freddie, and perhaps Andres to return to 2010 form.

You can disagree with my choice of Beltran, but at this point…this is who I want; especially if they aren’t interested in Pujols, Fielder, or Reyes.

Belt, Stewert, Schierholtz, Crawford, PLEASE! Easy outs, not major league hitters. Will make there teammates worse. By not seeing any good pitches as long as there are easy outs coming up.

This line up as is 85 losses. any major injuries of over 1 month 90 losses

michaeld

Who cares about the “casual fan” ?

Anti-Lasorda

Rowand and Zito for 2012 = $32.6M

That is more than enough to sign Fielder or Pujols……

Wanna explain to me how the Zito contract won’t prevent us from doing business Sabean…..

I remember this point last year how we were all hopefully of a big spend given that DeRosa & Tejada & Ross were coming off the books and that if we traded Sanchez we would have $20M to spend on free agents…..

OOOoops!

At least Freddy Sanchez, replaced by Panik, (-$5.5M), Huff, replaced by Belt (-$7.5M) & Rowand (-13.6M) will be off the books next year (~$26M total) and we’ll be able to REALLY spend next year.

What!?!?!? The club is only be due ridonkulous raises to Cabrera, Pablo, Posey and Bumgarner…… Oh where did that money go? Damn, foiled again!

Rain Day this Charles Johnson, you cheap prick! You take in $164M low end (according to Forbes) in revenue between ticket and merch. Spend it on the club on the field! You’ll make your money in equity on the club. I mean unless that tanking of Frankling Templeton (NYSE:BEN) this year means you can’t afford to own a baseball team…… BEN is down from $137 to just $93 (32%) at close yesterday….. OUCH! (although having a good day today up almost $5 in early trading). Now would be a good time to spend rough $125M of your $3-4B to buy out Billy Bowtie…..

I bet this is what Neukom knew…. That the Johnsons need new Merc’s with Louis Vitton luggage and that we get to get punished with excuses why Pujols, Fielder, Reyes, et al. can’t be Giants…..

Fricken 1%ers…

Don’t use the city’s ballclub to cover your losses.

*end rant*

ScottA

I’m NOT going to be one of “those” people who think that Bochy/Sabean messed with Belt’s development by yo-yo-ing him back and forth between the minors and the majors last season. What’s done is done. And what is more important, in the long run, is that he got consistent playing time regardless of what level rather than sitting on the bench for long stretches.

I will, however, say that I really, really hope that Bochy/Sabean give both Brandons a fair chance to make the team next year AND give them both lots of playing time to let them develop against major leaguers.

I would much rather see young, homegrown players like Belt and Crawford playing regular positions than some over-the-hill veteran on the wrong side of 30 whose skills will inevitably go down. At least these young guys have a CHANCE of improving! Plus, for a supposedly cash-strapped team unwilling to go after the big free agents out there… why do we keep paying these vets anywhere from $1 M to $10 M (or more!) per year when you can have guys being paid the league minimum. It’s ludicrous.

Save your free agent money for the DIFFERENCE MAKERS and fill the roster with young, up-and-coming players. Maybe then we won’t have a nearly-bottom-of-the-league offense for the last ten years in a row!

primetimedonna

Clutch up

Off subject, but are you a Lancer? Have heard rumors that the CCS playoff game of St. Ignatius vs Sacred Heart will be played Saturday night at AT&T which is still set up for football after the CAL season. Announced by the schools, but waiting for CCS confirmation. Game is currently slated to be played at Terra Nova High School field in Pacifica.

Anti-Lasorda

My rant being said, with Tampa fielding a winner for $45M, $130M should be enough to get it done.

The rumors about Affeldt and Rameriez make sense, and would mean call ups for Edelfsen and Runzler. Runzler I think is close to ready, not so sure Edelfsen….

Rameriez is $1.7 to $2.2M depending on who’s arbitration estimator you believe. I would think any replacement outside the organization would cost at least that much.

Dinero, # 71, said “… or actually playing our talented young players. To me, that’s really the crux of the Bochy issue. He’s got two years now to show that he can turn guys like Belt and Brown into everyday big leaguers. If he can’t, then it’s time to start talking about a move.”

I couldn’t agree more.

Bochy has proven to be a pretty good in-game manager. His lineups are inconsistent day-by-day, he says he’s playing the “hot hand”. Whatever. But his biggest fault is playing older vets over younger players. (Yeah, yeah, yeah, Sandoval and Posey are exceptions, but it’s like he expects a rook to play INSTANTLY like a vet or they’re gone!) Now is the time for Bochy to prove that he can also develop young players, which is majorly important for a major league manager.

Prove to me that I’m wrong, Bochy, develop some young players. I dare you.

Foothills Ryan

Highly doubt Sabean trying to trade Affeldt. Makes zero sense. Pick up his option @ 5 mil then trade him for something less valuable than could have been obtained in Free Agency (either whole contract or part of FA contract).

Ramirez on the other hand makes some sense. He has some value in that 2 mil range.

Besides, Affeldt does provide stability to back end of bullpen as he can pitch in the 7th, 8th or 9th. Ramirez can do same, but he’s a lesser commodity.

Anti-Lasorda

Anyone talking about Scutaro doesn’t keep up since his option was picked up by Boston almost a month ago……

The only way to acquire him would be via trade….

Marco was on the radar for SS until the option was picked up.

Right now, I am still sensing a Cendeno signing; he’s under 30, and wouldn’t prohibit playing Crawford 1st. If Crawford hits under .230, he can hit .250 and play a very serviceable MLB SS.

Beat over paying for anyone else……

All yours for under $3M.

Anti-Lasorda

I would prefer to keep Affeldt, because with Wilson’s cranky elbow, I know that Jeremy could close a game, and he’s a class guy 100%.

Rameriez? No way I trust that gas can after the 7th…. (nor do I need him with Affeldt, Lopez, Romo, Wilson locking down the 8th and 9th….

Trading him does make sense since I was thinking of non-tendering him and filling with Runzler anyway.

I just don’t know what value Ramon has. A mid-level b- or C prospect. We picked him up for cash from Boston who signed him as a Rule 5 pick.

I just don’t see being offerred much knowing we’ll probably cut him loose anyway……

Sansui-Sans Haiku Corner

Tito IS correct!!
Lack of scoring is BORING
Just ask “Shutout” Tim…

TitoMac

A-L

Tampa fielding 45 mill team paying other members of staff and scouting and development well over a 100 mill.

You tend to find more diamonds in the rough when you have the right people in place to make decisions and develop those decisions.

ScottA

You need to go take your dress for less azz and go root for Fresno.

Nate’sFanMom

Well, it looks as though we’re going to get what we’ve been clamouring since the departure of Barry Bonds: A youth movement.

I won’t be surprised to see mid-season promotions and trading veterans like F. Sanchez and A. Huff.

Once Michael Cuddyer signs somewhere (else other than SF), Beltran’s probably going to be out of reach for the Giants.

Has anyone seen Gregor Blanco play? I wonder if he’s a possiblity to make the roster out of ST.

TitoMac

A-L

My bad seen something out dated and reacted on Scutaro who would be a perfect fit for this team. For a 1 or 2 year stop gap. Snooz you lose.

Things are going to pick up I hope Sabean and Company are ready to react.

I do not like Cedeno. prefer to give Crawford a chance. sign Beltran and another outfielder then playing Crawford would be a lot easier.

Not a Lancer, but do follow the WCAL, PAL, EBAL and especially Marin Catholic. Yes after the CCS/CIF governing body announced that Sacred Heart Cathedral and St. Ignatius were going to play at Terra Nova HS in Pacifica…many of those schools fans were clamoring for Kezar. Kezar was not one of the schools secured during the summer and when a late switch to Kezar was attempted they found out the sod had started to be pulled up.

Would anyone enjoy not talking about fantasy lineups and improbable trades, and instead about what the club looks like with the most probable players we do own or are likely to. In particular how do we match up in the NL West and elsewhere.

pacman68

I agree with Anti Lasorda – Affeldt has to be kept. I think Wilson’s elbow is worse than everyone let on.

Tito – I also agree with you. They need some more players. I am not sold on Posey and Freddie coming back at full strength. I am also not sold on Huff and Nate. Nate is a great defensive right fielder but he really needs to show more progress and pop at the plate.

TitoMac

NatesfanMom

There is hope for Nate, did you see Phillies signed Kevin Frandsen

Wooo Hoooo!

Nate’sFanMom

@Foothill

Trading Affeldt makes total sense. They exercised his option to prevent him from leaving w/o getting something in return.

Marco Scutaro for Affeldt would make sense, for example.

ScottA

Tito, if you read my posts (which I doubt you did) I don’t say the Giants should ONLY be playing AAAA players. There’s a point buried in there that is key to my argument: If we fill a FEW positions with young, up-and-coming players that get the league minimum, we can save up our free agent money to get a Reyes/Fielder/Pujols type player.

What would you rather have? (a) a team with 6-7 positions filled by 32-38 year-olds getting $3-$10 M each and maybe 1 rookie, or (b) a team with 3-4 young players, 2-3 vets and 1-2 superstars???

JD4SF says: November 30th, 2011 at 12:23 am 78..@ CU “Something is IN THE WORKS because Mr. Bochy said today that Posey is GOING TO play first base. I missed that. Was there clarification included, like anticipating Buster needing to take breaks from C? Or was the implication that Buster was intended to be the starting 1B?

—JD: My bad leaving OUT the clarification. Bochy said that a lot of Posey’s rest will be metted out by him playing first base when not catching. Buster’s rehab has apparently been way better than anticipated and there is speculation that the ony/big downfall would be overuse reps while in the squat. He squats while warming up the starting pitcher (back up never does that). He squats during the 6-8 pre-inning warm-ups and squats during 1-9 innings.

The rest was MY opinion regarding the fact that Bochy hardly says anything this definitive to the media. He went on to say that he has talked to Buster about it. Bochy did not say Buster and I have talked it over, Bochy said that is what Brass want to happen and thus Buster was informed of that scenario.

[ScottA You need to go take your dress for less azz and go root for Fresno.)

Note:

No personal attacks on users.

You are perfectly welcome to be negative or critical while expressing your point of view. But be respectful.

primetimedonna

Clutch

I’d heard the info from a fellow usher, Sacred Heart grad. My husband went to Riordan, but our kids went to St. Ignatius. Little Kezar history in the family. Oldest son played the last game at Kezar before the rennovation in the 90s and my younger son played the first game at the newly reopened Kezar. Too bad this game can’t be there…..lots of San Francisco High School history there!

Sorry everyone for the off subject posts.

Go Giants!! ALL Giants! (I’m a fan since they came here, and grew up with the notion that you cheered for anyone in a Giant’s uniform, not matter what!)

Anti-Lasorda

Bench would catch 125-135 games and play another 20-30 at 1B, 3B and LF each year throughout his career. That majority at 1B.

I don’t see any reason Posey should do different. Though for Buster I would like them to pick just one spot for him to get his rest, whether that’s 1B, 3B or LF.

I would presume that Bochy, being an old catcher who has seen and had an injury or two, doesn’t see Posey bouncing back with as much certainty as most outsiders. He darn sure knows he’ll have to pace his efforts. I’m not as sanquine as you about 100+ games, I can see him at 80-90, mainly toward the seasons end. In any case, with the Cubs bidding for Pujols, Soto may come available, and that would be a major coup to get him. As a matter of fact, the Cubs desperately need middle relief help, hmmm.

ClutchUp

@ PrimeTime: Good Stuff.

There really are NO off topic – topics during the Hot Stove League. Keep the war stories coming. All good stuff, similar to A-L’s last outing on the bump gassed at 78-84 mph…or Walter Guest’s amazing stories.

Kezar has so many memories. One of the only fields where players had to put their helmets back on to leave the field…

Go Crusaders. Better years will follow on Phelan Ave.

TitoMac

A couple of things about Affeldt

Which tip the Giants hand.

You do not sign a Lefty reliever for 5 mill with the intent of rebuilding.

You sign a lefty reliever for 5 mill cause you fully intend to contend and your intent is to contend.

Also you do not sign a Lefty reliever for 5 mill with the intent to trade him. money in hand is more valualbe in free agency selection.

Remeber a lot of card playing yesterday by Sabean and Bochy and company.

I can see through the cards and I see bright, bright sun shiny days.

I will be a Happy Giants fan.

primetimedonna

Clutch

You’ve heard about the changes on Phelan Avenue, including the fact that they are now a boarding school with 20-30 boarding students, mostly from the Orient living in the old brothers residence? Lots of good memories there too…..hope things shake out well for the school!

And yes, many great memories of Kezar, going back to when SI and ShH were in the old SF AAA league before being tossed out and going to the WCAL with Riordan. More good memories when the boys played there. Good times! It is a unique place with much SF history. We still try to take in a few High School games every year.

primetimedonna

Agree about Posey playing quite a bit at 1B. The reason I’ve stated here many times that keeping Belt in LF may be a good move for him. Even after Huff there may be a logjam at 1B and I’d like to see Belt get consistent play time.

Keep’n It Real

ESPN Rumors:

The San Francisco Giants had the worst offense in the National League in 2011, and entered the offseason with the need to add help. The club did acquire centerfielder Melky Cabrera from the Kansas City Royals for lefty Jonathan Sanchez, but it appears the club is not going to spend on a big-name free agent, likely including Carlos Beltran, too.

Sabean said Tuesday that there will be no big splash and that the club is looking to secure their own pitching staff for the long term. That eliminates Jose Reyes, Prince Fielder and Albert Pujols from the mix.

The Giants could always look at Josh Willingham and Rafael Furcal — two splashes not considered large — but the cost will be the key. As it stands, the club’s outfield is likely to consist of Cabrera, Brandon Belt and Nate Schierholtz. Cody Ross is a free agent and it doesn’t appear the club is interested in re-signing him.

A rebound year from Huff and natural progression from Belt will help significantly, as will the return of catcher Buster Posey.

Keep’n It Real

ESPN Rumors:

Carlos Beltran spent the final two months of the 2011 season with the San Francisco Giants and the best fit for him may be right back in the Bay Area where the Giants still need offense and probably have to get it from the outfield. First baseman Aubrey Huff is under contract for $10 million in 2012 plus a $2 million buyout so the club is likely out of any race for Prince Fielder, Albert Pujols or even Carlos Pena.

Beltran could also be a fit in Detroit if the Tigers trade Delmon Young, and the veteran’s name has come up in connection with the Boston Red Sox. The Yankees were also mentioned early this offseason, but once the word got out about Beltran’s initial demands, the Yankees were deemed uninterested.

That could change, though the Yankees would likely have to move Brett Garnder or more likely Nick Swisher to make room for Beltran.

Dan Szymborski of The Baseball Think Factory writes that while the Giants and Red Sox certainly make sense, too, there may be a surprise suitor for Beltran:

primetimedonna

CC

And Soto is a RH Bat. Hummmmmmm

TitoMac

@BaggsCommentator

Nothing wrong with being Frugal.

ScottA wants to be cheap, Nothing worng with being cheap. and Frugal. And Fresno is a good place to be Frugal.

dress for less is Frugal, Fresno is Frugal.

again nothing wrong with Frugal. There is a place to be frugal in baseball AAA Fresno.

Anti-Lasorda

Waldis Joaquin cleared waivers so he can officially be resigned if desired….

Anti-Lasorda

Darren Ford given is outright release….

You won’t see him no more….

Husker

primetimedonna makes a good point. If Belt plays regularly in the outfield, he could improve his value.
Sandoval or Posey may have to move to 1B some day.

ClutchUp

Random, Yet Specific thoughts:

—Even in a so-called hypothetical great 100 win regular season there are 62 losses. Half of those 62 might be gut wrenching or unexpected but never the less regardless of one’s love of their current TEAM, hatred of their GM or Field Skipper, love of baseball, expert knowledge, lack of expert knowledge or ALL combinations above, the game at the professional level is so marathonistic that the real ONLY way to run a club is with templates similar to SF, Philly, Texas, Florida, Detroit, ATL.

—When an organization tries a so called hybrid method it either fails or goes one year big and drops off the earth. When the O’Malley-Bavasi’s morphed into the more modern day ownership, with ONLY filthy-artificially rich owners who knew NOTHING about baseball – the Fodgers suffered.

—The OLD SF Clubs run by Stoneham-Feeney-Spec Richardson-Al Rosen and Bob Quinn had marvelous Hall of Fame type players who could thump balls out of the yard but their pitching and position player depth could not compete with Clubs that were being run by better people.

—There is a quote/stat floating around somewhere that under the current regime’s GM that the Giants are the ONE team that has played in the fewest meaningless games. It is a difficult statement to quantify and understand and one that is probably of less concern to the average fan, however it is a VERY revered fact held dear by inside “baseball-people” everywhere.

—Anybody still wondering WHY 2011 happened and STILL refuses to factor in the overall cumulative effect of the totality of the injuries makes me wonder… Neukom said it best when he said “I was suspect as to how GOOD we were playing after Buster and Freddy went down”

—Yes, we still had the best pitching in America, Yes during the mini 8 game winning streak at the end we were still almost part of that crazy last night — the craziest, most absurd, most wonderful night that baseball can remember…

Bochy did this wrong… Sabean and Tejada…Sabean and OCab…Bochy Belting Brandon all over the place…Crawdaddy going back down…Where the heck is Brett Pill…Whiteside Stinks…Stewart sure can throw…Keppinger is our savior, let’s move him to SS next year, wait NO No No, what are you watching when he’s playing….

All were mitigating factors, but the fact that Burrell-Ross-Rowand-Torres and Huff – ALL FIVE of them had terrible seasons + Pablo’s hamate bone=40 games ++ Posey and Freddy all took their toll on the then rest of the teams complete lack of mental fortitude.

In BAD summation it “Was what it Was”. Neukoms gut was correct. They had a total team adrenaline rush when Buster and Freddy went down and collectively they said…”We can do this”…. and … they did for a long long time, but offensive futility 101 was re-written in the baseball history books.

Hit and Runs failed. Bochy chose the ‘wrong’ people to try and hit and run. Bochy started runners on 3-2 pitches who had no business running…where the batter/runner struck out = double play. Runners tried going from 2nd to 3rd on balls hit to the opposing SS. Right fielders caught medium deep fly balls and froze, having runners tag and take 3rd base. Whiteside face-planted into second base and went from a below average catcher to a way below average catcher. All 12 pitchers could NOT hold a runner at first base (save Bumgarner). Aaron Harang picked off Justin Christian on a balk-pickoff move. Kershaw picked off Torres-Ford-Christian and Beltran.

2011 was the gift that kept on giving. The “shape without a form”. The Amoeba. Add to that – opposing clubs RELISHED in the demise of the 2011 Giants due to HOW “we” won it in 2010. The 2011 bulls-eye was humongous and it just grew and grew and grew. The round hole got rounder and the square peg became “more-square”.

2012 has the capabilities of being SO different with Clear, Concise goals. They HAVE to build from within!!! They HAVE to have players whose skill set FITS 81 games at Willie Mays Field. They should lead the league in singles turned INTO doubles and doubles turned into Triples. Get ’em on, Get ’em over and Get ’em in.

TitoMac

Husker

Sounds like you primetime and Scott A will be all attending a lot of Fresno games.

GO GRIZZLES!

TitoMac

Wow!

Meaningfull games. LOL!

SOB!

Is that a Sabermetric stat?

Means Didley to anybody that cares anything about baseball.

10 games under .500 gets you meaningfull games in September.

When you draw 3+ mill a year in one of the worse divisions you better be playing meaningfull games.

COME ON MAN!

Anti-Lasorda

So far Clutch, when we wanted to get supa fast and pick up Crispy to play LF, sign J Roll for SS and run out Torres in CF, Nate in RF and Belt at 1B and try to steal 180 – 200 bases isn’t going to come close to happeneing with this club. Cabrera for Torres has made the club slower.

We need a blazer or two on this club and in this lineup, right now they are not on the 25 man roster….

Graham or Chrisitan or Burris might queeze on to the club, but they are not going to have everyday roles?

Who currently in the projected lineup is going to have an unconditional green light?

Is there anyone out there we could sign who would?

primetimedonna

Clutch

As always, some great points! I especially like the comment about the Giants having played the least meaningless games. As a fan of the game, and the club, what more can you ask!

I’m ever the optimist and look forward to what 2012 will bring! Improved players, surprises from the kids, support for the pitchers. At this point anything is possible. The heck with reality’s intrusion…..bring it on!!

TitoMac

Building from within

Every Club would like to Build from within. And that should be every Organization in MLB’s goal build from within.

You need blocks and more then one at every posiiton you need 3 or 4 that compete with each other and bring out the most in each other.

Ones that do not strike out 1 out of every 3 at bats and pull a ground ball the other 1/2 of thier at bats weakly to the second basemen or shortstop. And do not swing at balls about to hit them.

TitoMac

Tampa Bay and Atlanta Build from within.

They also put a heII of a lot more money in there scouting and development.

Which the Giants do not. Tell the money is put in those two catogories first nothing is going to happen to say that they are Building from within but lip service. From kool aide pourers much like CluthcUp.

Always good Watching Bang Bang to see Travis Ishikawa – in clip one receiving Nates’ throw and stumbling/tagging first base, only to have Tulo slide in, look over to Glenallen Hill (pride of Santa Cruz Calif) and mutter…”Am I Out”?

Glenallen Hill (Mitchell Report allegations) by the way suffers from an intense condition of arachnophobia… violent nightmares about spiders, hence the 15 day disabled list, and of course spiderman nickname.

primetimedonna

Clutch

“Not far behind the Goners: Aubrey Huff (Chone Figgins)”

Wishful thinking or inside knowledge? Not impressed with his last year, or his last couple. Salary the same. No power and at 33 does he still have speed? How serious was hip problem? Don’t see a huge upside.

Keep’n It Real says: November 30th, 2011 at 12:38 pm 138..ClutchUp- I thought Ford was exciting on the bases in 2010…even when he couldn’t hit worth a darn. Then in 2011, his dynamics on the bases went away and so did he.

KIR: Nobody more dynamic at certain moments for sure, especially the 2010 short overthrow on his steal of 3rd…and then his scamper from third vs. Pirates AFTER their 1stbaseman had supposedly looked him back.

Ford is a luxury item IMO on a stacked AL club looking for that component. AAAA player who will kick around baseball and as the baseball gods like to do, will probably play against the Giants in the future at one time or another – and of course steal a bag with ease, unless the Bochster calls the proverbial pitchout and then Dempsey III will gun him out easily.

shellfish

Wow, just finished reading everyone and love the varying opinions of us nut case giants fans!

Something struck me in Bagg’s article…they have traded Sanchez, supposedly their best prospect for trade dollars/players, so who is left?

They shy away from saying anything positive, really, about Belt. It is almost as if they don’t really want to talk about him. I wonder, with so many to potentially play first, do you guys think they may pull a fast one and trade Belt? It would rid them of the embarrassment of how they treated him last year (at least the perceived opinion of many) and since it appears many in the mlb feel Belt has a long, strong future, he might garner some high return….

It would make me sad but I just got an odd feeling when reading…

Don’t string me up…

If they don’t want to spend any more money, who could they trade to get a hitter (lead-off or otherwise)? Would Sabes do it?

Huff vs. Figgins. Nothing but my mind wandering. I once liked Chone with the Halos (once). Speculating again addition by subtraction, although Aubrey’s astrological signs still point to his on-off-on-off career bringing good things in 2012. Aubrey can SURE break out the self-depracating interviews…

It might make sense to the pundits or guys that need to spin our wheels to create controversy regarding the + or minuses to trade Brandon but he is being groomed to be an RBI guy…

-He’ll hit 2 hr’s a dbl and triple in some games then go 0-5 for three straight games. Someday he might hit 3 HR’s in one game by going after the first pitch of the count, and again then pull a 3 for 44 couple of weeks and people here will howl.

Doug Mapson would need to be talked off the ledge if #9 BB was packaged.

The salary is so similar don’t know about the addition by subtraction.

” Aubrey can SURE break out the self-depracating interviews…”

Any one interview you’re thinking about in particular? Self deprecating is his style, usually sincere, but who knows…….. Maybe it’s the Mom in me (not to mention coming from a long line of sarcastic smart alecs) but I actually think there is a lot of sensitivity hiding under that smart a– veneer. May be how he handles embarrassment and disappointment. (I’ve got a son like that). Or maybe he’s a good actor?? Still not a believer in that on year off year nonsense, but wonder if he may not rise to the challenge and have one good year left? (okay maybe the Mom in me again.)

Anyway, wouldn’t be completely opposed to a trade for him, but not sure this one appeals to me.

But, I will bow to your superior knowledge.

primetimedonna

Clutch

Re Belt

Doug Mapson wouldn’t be the only one needing to be talked off the ledge! We’ve got a lot of posters here who would be standing beside him!!

Maybe Jonathan Broxton can share some supplements with “Sanchie” now that they are KC teammates. A little ‘something’ so that Sanchie can recover quicker from those injuries that have an infinite recovery time line…

shellfish – trading Belt does make some sense, both he and Posey will more than likely need to be at 1B within a couple years.

I wouldn’t trade Belt yet though, I would hold on to him for at least 2012 and probably 2013, just to see what shakes out. Maybe Posey will have a long career behind the dish, who knows? If so, then Sanchez becomes trade bait pretty quick. His bat is just too nice to be relegated to a backup role for much longer.

Then there’s all the other Cs/1Bs coming through the pipeline in the next couple years:
Monell
Joseph
Susac
Oropesa

Probably all of them won’t pan out, but maybe a couple will, and maybe we are having the exact same discussion in 2014.

Whoa, knowledge IMO is never superior, but always has a subjective flair and very seldom an objective bent. Trust me. One persons garbage is another person’s treasure, especially in baseball. Aubrey’s sense of fair play and self-depracation IMO has always been indearing, but way more so when the TEAM is winning vs. Struggling. It played well in 2010 and it grated on some in 2011. Ingratiating if you will to a fault, Aubrey stepped up during many club house at his locker TV interviews. His classic “ya’ll know I am playing like dog pi$$” always made those that have covered the “prima-donna” type players (pun not intended) feel closer to the lunch pail blue collar Huff.

I am hoping for the best…cause he is a leader when times are going well…

LOL! Still bow to your superior knowledge. And thank you for your very diplomatic response to the Mama Bear in me. You actually described his charm (and often lack thereof) very kindly. As i’ve said in other posts, I’m an eternal optimist, and since I do admit to a very large soft spot for Aubrey, I’m hoping for the best till I’m hit over the head with reality. Maybe just one more good year……………… Too many soft grounders to second and I’ll have to give in, but till then……….

JD4SF

@ various comments on Buster likely to play a bunch at 1B …
===

OK, no surprises there. But if Buster is projected to play multiple games at the 1B logjam … who is going to be ready for a lot of C? Hector Sanchez?

Folks have been discussing 2B and SS utility options, but what options are available for 3B when Panda needs a break? No logjam there!

We had DeRosa as a solid back-up/utility. Who do we currently have who could cover 3B? Any on the current roster who have actually played 3B at college or above? Anyone in the farm system who might cover the left side of the IF who is close to being ready?

Anti-Lasorda says:
November 30th, 2011 at 12:13 pm
We need a blazer or two on this club and in this lineup, right now they are not on the 25 man roster….
========

Yup

shellfish

Good observations JD, interesting…who would back up at 3rd?

Well, as for Belt, I DO NOT want to see him traded…I just think maybe “they” have something up their sleeves in trying to trade someone. Hope not.

Great stuff Clutch, as usual. Channel, you kill me, everytime! Yes, let’s get back to what it might look like!!!

Anti, where are you???

primetimedonna

JD4SF

Some very valid points that we need to consider before we release or decide not to re sign some others like Fontenot and Keppinger. Not sure what the market is…..maybe Clutch’s Chone Figgons? Bet there are some cheaper options, and what about Conor G?

In the Mexican league, Justin Christian joined Mochis on November 1 and didn’t miss a beat. He has 15 hits in 51 at-bats and hit his first home run of the winter November 5. Christian is playing center field for los Caneros and he has six RBIs so far.

Tyler Graham hit well last week, going 6-for-25 with two RBIs. Like Christian, he’s sticking in center for los Tomateros.

Brett Pill is/was MIA…..

—Might Pill be a POW?

—So maybe that means that Pill is more of a Tomatoe than a Tomateros? Where is Dan Quail when we need him?

Keep’n It Real

ClutchUp – I’m still hoping for a Zito for Figgins swap; even though the Giants would still be on the hook for some of Zito’s salary. I think Huff will add more value (regardless of the level) to the 2012 Giants than Zito.

JD4SF

Font or Kepp are more limited as position players off the bench. Neither is a 3B option. Best free agent option I’m aware of who can *also* cover 3B is DeRosa.

With the current roster I can see an Uh-Oh temporary move if Panda goes out on DL plugging Buster in at 3B. Not ideal, but at least he has played there before if briefly.

This 3B lack of depth does not give me a warm and fuzzy feeling.

TitoMac

No doubt a Utility player is on Sabeans list if no De Rosa or Fontenot or keppinger.

I might keep Fontenot. do not know why but I would look to upgrade Utility Infielder spot. He gives you the best defense in multiple positions could be why I think he is a better option then Keppinger or De Rosa.

Jerry Hairston has been mentioned. And I would be all for a Jerry Hairston.

If they wanted to trade Belt for a leadoff guy they would have done it in July for Michael Bourne……

The ‘Stros would have gladly accepted a package headlined by Belt for the CF and speedster.

In reality, from a fiscal perspective RBI guys with 5 years of team control left are infinitely more valuable than even the best speedster. Look at Carlos Quentin, a proverbial 30 and 100 guy the White Sox are shoping becuase they know he’ll be in the $15-18M range come 2013. Belt’s potential to be that guy for 5 years at under $10M a season is invaluable.

You can sign a modest approximation of Bourne, say Coco Crisp, for example for $6M.

To get a similar approximation of Quentin, you could look at someone like Josh Willingham at closer to $12M.

That’s $30M dollars over the next few years for a team that will only get more budget crunched with Posey, Pablo, Cabrera (who we would want to keep if he has a good year), Sandoval all due substancial raises in 2013 if they maintain their performance levels.

Now, if your 100% convinced you have to play Posey at 1B full time after 2012, or that you have another Belt just sitting their waiting in the log jam then you might trade him. Pill is not that guy IMO. Hey will be a nice complimentary Big leaguer, but he doesn’t have the .280/30/100 potential Belt has. Given Belt’s age, just 23 (compared to Belt’s 27), and his 5 years of team control at modest prices it would be foolish to trade him soley for a speedster.

Pill and Huff have lower trade values. Pill is cheap and is the perfect foil to give Brandon a blow against a tough lefty so it makes the most sense to move Huff.

Bad news, we just spent 5 months watching him play horrribly and the the management team made sure they absolutely destroyed him over and over in a press conference to minimize his value. He won’t be tradeable until he has a good spring showing, and then he should be shopped to an AL team looking for a DH. I would expect they will let it be known queitly to someone other than Ken Rosenthal that Huff could be had for the right package….

Chone is not that package IMO, but it wouldn’t be the worst idea.

ClutchUp

JD4SF:

I’m going to have to get Fontenot to pay me for agent-type duties. Fontenot runs RINGS around Keppinger regarding versatility. Although Cajun Mike…aka BabeFonty is best at 2B – he can and has played SS and 3base (quite a few times in 2011)

Keppinger… He makes the routine ball look routine at 2b. Makes the going up the middle play make me long for Jeff Kent and makes the sliding play in the “3-4” hole make me long for a healthy Freddy. We hopefully wont see Kepp on the left side.

Hitting: Kepp’s forte is hitting the 0-0 pitch up the middle for a single. He barreled up one HR for us in 2011. Fonty had several, one Huge 3run job while hitting in Bochy’s rotational three hole while it seemed that half the 25 roster was on the DL.

I do like FA Ryan Theriot but apparently he is a mendoza line guy hitting against RH pitching…

But what if Panda just has a flu bug and is out for a few games? Current roster needs to be able to fill the gap at 3B.

Anti-Lasorda

Fontenot looked just fine at 3B in the World Series in 2010.

He covers all three 2B, SS, 3B, LH bat, which is rare for the utility guy. Of course he really struggled with the bat after he got hurt last year after a good start.

He’ll be relatively inexpensive at $1.3M.

Gillespie is a 3B learning to play 2B to try and make the club in a utility role. He has no future at 3B with Pablo clogging that role, and Panik will fill 2B from him in short order. He needs to play around the horn to make himself useful.

JD4SF

ClutchUp says:
November 30th, 2011 at 2:18 pm
I’m going to have to get Fontenot to pay me for agent-type duties. Fontenot runs RINGS around Keppinger regarding versatility.
=====

yeah Theriot has his faults at the plate, but compaqred to Crawford, he’s Babe Ruth. He also is a real ML SS, not a project or want to be.

ClutchUp

Seyer, who’s turned to acting since her beauty queen days ended, is a small-town girl. She hails from Oran, Missouri, which has a population of just over 1,200. Her parents are or were reportedly pig farmers.

channelclemente says: November 30th, 2011 at 2:23 pm172..@CU,yeah Theriot has his faults at the plate, but compaqred to Crawford, he’s Babe Ruth. He also is a real ML SS, not a project or want to be.

I AM smiling but I do (so I think) remember your lack of fondness for Brandon 35 Crawford in the past. “Me Thinks” Crawford is neither a project nor a want-to-be, but rather if you will your typical MLB KID who has been “drafted and followed” our of HS and UCLA and when these KIDS get fast-traked through the pipe line it can be rough sledding.

I am fine with OUR Crawford in our pipeline vs having to deal with Carl Crawford in Bean Town who (zito like) took the dinero and succommed to the enormous pressure of going from LF in Florida playing for Joe Maddon to playing Yaz’s old spot in front of the Green Monster.

> Again I don’t get the koolaid epidemic of signing a huge STICK type A free agent in this regard: What does that actually guarantee based on everything baseball known to mankind. What kind of fluffy feel good remarks would this Forum be laced with if we signed Beltran and Fielder and could not (for whatever baseball related reason) pull it all together.

Where would WE then place the blame? What happened in 2011 with the Phills…Yanks….BoSox…Braves…

ClutchUp

Dinero:

Thats got Giraffe Boy written all over it…

shellfish

Thanks Anti, I knew you’d be able to shed a ton of light on my question!

primetimedonna says: November 30th, 2011 at 2:28 pm 177..Playing 3B as backup…Hey Huff says he can play 3B….okay, even I can’t say that with a straight face!! ;>)

—I think that came from Aubrey’s mental tool box of expressions when in STrainging 2010 he told Bochy that he was the best athlete on the team. Huff’s propensity for Marlboro’s/Winstons in lieu of his wife asking him to stop ‘brown-spotting’ their back yard swing set of the kids made him the least likely cardio specimen on the planet. Aubrey’s fine line between being IN shape and Out of shape is probably to fine to measure but using the EYE test for 2011 – he was clearly SUCKING oxygen during plays where he did NOT in 2010.

Mr. Thong Man has played 3base at times during his career.
1. Firstbase 2. LF 3. RF 4. Thirdbase. It would have to be one of Bochy’s in game famous Double Switches.

I’m not anti Crawford, he just is too much of a tease. By the way, to illustrate the looney bin nature of the FA market, especially for middle infielders, Barmes got 2 years and 21 million, look at his line in the attachment. That’s insane. I guess I need someone to reveal the Stamos boy is in the cage taking BP a daylight, and sleeps with a hickory stick at night. I want the kind of committment we saw from Sandoval last off season and playing hurt at years end.

Thanks…can’t open certain things at the place where I get money to feed the herd…block city. surprised they haven’t blocked this….

anthillunda2nd

Offseason of whiners continues……glad I’ve been getting an offseason from this blog.

Sabes is absolutely right and keeping this ship aimed in the right direction. Didn’t any of you watch a bit of the playoffs? Not a lot of stellar pitching, way more offense due to the shoddy pitching.

Keep the money in-house to sign our pitching studs, plenty of youth showing they can contribute as a team. Hector Sanchez tearing it up still in Winter, Tyler Graham tore it up and added himself to the conversation. Pill is a great addition, Nate’s coming back to his rightful spot in RF and Posey is coming back!!

primetimedonna

Clutch

Okay. Guess I’m not very good at my sarcasm either……that was totally tongue in cheek! I know he’s played 3B in the past, but was a lot younger then! Despite what many think, when you look at his numbers he’s not a bad ballplayer……his homerun total and combined average would shock many. His best athlete on the team remark last year was meant in the same sarcastic joking manner as my 3B and not being able to say it with a straight face remark. Bochy took it as such.

I’ll give you some leeway regarding his physical shape, but could you let go of the smoking aspect just a bit……..it’s been overplayed and is definitely something to consider but remember he smoked in 2010 too. Considering where he’s from, I’d bet he’s smoked for years. But enough already…….can we just drop it. The sucking air remarks mostly come from that one play scoring from 1st on the road, and never was really so obvious the rest of the year. We’ve played this game before, and if I thought my attempt at humor would bring it up again, I’d have avoided the cheap joke. Maybe you could avoid the cheap shot.

We’ve been getting along so well, hopefully we can avoid rehashing all this.

Jedediah York

@ScottA post 26:

Yes! So true. If Sabean could stop blowing payroll on stop gap vets, then the Giants might actually have some extra money to spend on these top tier free agents.

I’d hate to see a $20-30 million three year commitment to a marginal free agent. Are those guys really going to be difference makers? Probably not. Save that money for the big guys. In the meantime, play the youths, who probably aren’t as good, but won’t be a huge drop off.

3/20-30 is almost by definition a marginal free agent, the way this market is shaping up. I say play the youngsters, they are probably better.

Keep’n It Real

anthillunda2nd –

I am with you with regard to watching the pitching in the playoffs. It was sickening to watch; knowing that the Giants staff was superior (top/bottom) to what was out there.

This said, it was the Giants lack of run support in 2011 that made all of us watch other teams going for the WS trophy. This team struggled for runs even before Posey and Sanchez were hurt. So…this is what makes me (and probably many of us) very uncomfortable with the status-quo.

Fall League and Winter Ball is not MLB. It’s great players are doing well, but there’s no “apples to apples” with MLB.

For me, at a minimum, I would like to see money spent on Beltran (hitting 3rd and playing LF), Ross (4th OF to rotate with Beltran/Nate), and perhaps Renteria to work with Crawford at SS. Beltran alone (ahead of Posey) would give this lineup the length that was missing in 2011 when everyone was healthy. THEN let the pitching staff do their thing.

primetimedonna

Jedidiah & Dinero

Another vote for playing our kids……see how that works out before giving away the store!

ClutchUp

primetimedonna: The Riordan Crusaders FB team took a beating somewhere in this thread…

I’ve got nothing against playing kids, but everyone needs to go to a ‘building’ mindset and not ‘contending’ mindset. With the young guys playing out their string or sticking, we’re a 80 win team. You can’t have your cake and eat it too.

primetimedonna

Clutch

And they have a great drama department! ;>)

primetimedonna

CC

You mean we can’t have our cake and eat it too?? Agree that we need a balance between the two, though most on this thread disagreed at the end of last year calling for only the kids. I still think we can find a good balance, but we may have to keep a few of our old guys around (oh, the horror!!)

walt kovacs

i agree with anthillunda2nd

sabean and the brain trust looked at the 2011 post season and smacked their heads

giants staff wouldve shut down all those teams

if the giants are healthy, and huff has a rebound year, i see no reason why this team cant avg 4 runs per game…which is all they need to win the division

pretty happy at the praise sabean heaped on craw

TitoMac

Suey!

You have something against pig farmers?

Jr

Don’t know why Cain and Linceum would stay with the Giants longer than they have to. That Sabean (with extension in hand) is incapable of building a productive offsense, I would think that Cain and Linecum would want to go to teams that can actually score some runs.

I guess I come from a generation where something for nothing isn’t a negotiable compromise.

ClutchUp

primetimedonna says: November 30th, 2011 at 3:02 pm 184..

PrimeDonna: Something is askew regarding HOW you took my Huff post.
I love Aubrey but was just quantifying the fine line between having character and one being a character. IMO Aubrey has both, is both. The best athlete comment originated in 2010 after he booted the very first ground ball ever hit to him in spring training. At his locker talking to Schulman he broke out the comment…

The smoking item: Duane Kuiper, Dick (don’t call me Richie) Allen smoked in the dugouts after an at bat, during their half inning when they weren’t coming up to hit. Weaver, Sparky and Leyland all smoked during the game while they were managing. I deal with HS and Junior College kids dipping all the time. These kids would never think to smoke cigarettes instead of dipping but adult mlb men of Plus 30 years of age will substitute cigarettes for Smokeless. (Burrell is a smoker)
Athletes have told me the KEY is for their Cardio to neutralize or off set their needed habit and believe me it IS a NEED. What happened to Aubrey was subtle but obvious. He got in thoroughbred shape for 2010 and did workout for 2011 but not as diligently. A gangly 6’4 3/4’s skinny ball player does not show he is out of shape like a Sandoval. Huff did not have a gut…he looked the same, but do to severe back spasms and lack of base hits many including me watched him visually to see if he looked the same.

Trust me, nothing more and nothing less. A guy with 244 career home runs is a keeper, providing he can find the Midas touch of 2010. Great family man. Having a wife with a name like Baubi and kids names like Jagger and Jayce as well of knowledge of his dad dying in front of him at the age of 6 while JUST trying to break up a work-place dispute – resonates in MY life very MUCH. His teammate’s spoke of him ALONE as the number one reason that early 2010 was held together before everyone else kicked in. He carried the 2010 team for many months.

That IDs two maybe three teams they can play for that have deep enough pockets for them and bats. Take the Cardinals, they’re about to commit suicide with Pujols. Too small a market, too big a price. It’s sort of the baseball version of “the girls all look better at closein time”. It may ultimately kill their franchise.

Anti-Lasorda

I’m willing to play as many kids as possible but the needs are still there… and are the same as they were in August. Cabrera just replaces Ross at a lower $ figure and hopefuly improved performance.

1) Leadoff hitter, has to play CF or SS, be capable of stealing more than 30 bases
2) MLB proven back up catcher
3) MLB proven comodity that can play SS at hit RH

That’s it.

Current commitments and no brainers project out to $118.7M

Take you’re $11.3M

Fill those three voids, 1 backup infielder and 2 Relief pitchers.

You can have any of the following automatically at the values listed as they are under team control.

With what you don’t take from the list above you have to fill open market.

The most I’m able to squeeze if I go as kid friendly as I can is $8.8M for one free agent. That is well below a certain switch hitting OF with bad knees salary requirements.

There are 3 lead off hitters available for that price range. 2 play SS, 1 can play CF.

There is a former all star catcher who caught a certain Cy Young winner during his Cy Young year available in that price range. You could have him with either leadoff man that can play center, one open market, one under your control.

Okay have fun…..

primetimedonna

CC

Okay, is my sarcasm radar really off today?

Come from possibly an older generation, and never remember getting something for nothing…..there are always strings!! (Or the deal isn’t all that good).

I really don’t believe we have to jettison all our old guys for new shiny things that probably won’t perform all that much better. I’m for getting the kids in where and when they fit. Love seeing them play, but don’t think we “owe them” anything. They need to earn their spots even with whatever adversity many see as thwarting them. They want to take a spot from someone else, they need to outperform on a regular basis not just in certain games and in certain at bats. Coddling doesn’t help anyone.

This way, I have something to look forward to, on the upside, as a suprise.

primetimedonna

Clutch

We’ve had these chats before, and I know your feelings. You know how much I enjoy your posts. You have always been very kind and patient with my lack of knowledge at times. I know you have respect for Aubrey, and I agree that not smoking would be a good thing. Just wish you didn’t find it necessary to bring it up so often. It is what it is. Doubt either of us will get him to stop…..has to come from within. In the meantime, I think he is still a viable player, and am happy to debate that. I think his conditioning can be improved with workouts like he did before the 2010 season including cardio. Just would prefer we could debate if all without beating a dead horse.

my point is that 1/2 to 3/4 of the ‘kids’ won’t have spots. In the end, if Belt can replicate Huff’s career, he should count himself extremely lucky. Crawford has yet to show anything that doesn’t make him a AAA lifer with great promise, despite all our hopes. Sandoval is the only potential superstar in the bunch. After his injury, even Posey has the odds against him.

I’m not making an argument for veteran players, just respecting how much talent and grit it takes for most to stick for even a year or two on a ML ballclub. Many folks here just see these guys as BB cards from the way they talk. Being a major league ballplayer is a tough goal to achieve and those that manage to hang around ought to be respected and not treated like some kids trading card. I agree with CU (I think) Huff was the glue in 2010 and didn’t make the same mark in 2011. To have cast him aside after 2010 would have been contemptable. Ouch, let me get down off that soap box.

I’d be inclined to agree with you on Belt, James’ numbers seem a bit high to me. I think Belt can and will get there, and will hit for higher average than that, but probably not in ’12. I think Posey and Pablo are absolutely capable of James’ projections though. In fact, I think Pablo may very well blow that out of the water if he stays healthy. Somewhere in the .330 30 100 range would not shock me.

Sandoval, could, if he really wants to, take a triple crown. He has that much potential. It is a matter of does he want to enough. He has Pujols skill set, but as of yet, nowhere near the focus, drive or determination. I’ve come to believe he can hit anything he can reach, if he’s in shape. He has uncanny bat speed, IMO.

The nut is tought to crack every year…. Even in July when you’re the defending champs up by 5 games with only a group of seemingly over achievers your only threat. It’s always a tough nut….

I’m a Giants fan, not a Yankees fan. I take nothing for granted.

primetimedonna

CC

I hear you, and you’re preaching to the Choir as I’m sure you know from my post. Seems like even baseball often becomes fodder for the instant gratification mindset. Still like to see people success come the old fashinoned way…..by being earned. Some don’t seem to realize that it is possible to want to see one person succeed without disrespecting the career of others.

Anti-Lasorda

over 8 months and 162 games any success achieved is ALWAYS earned…..

primetimedonna

Anti

I agree. I was just referring to the need for so many to make excuses when the results they expect aren’t achieved, more the fans than the ballplayers. I think most of the ballplayers respect the achievements of those who’ve gone before them.

Keep’n It Real

I’m laughing about the headline about Red Sox players being upset with the hiring of Valentine. If they are concerned about his tighter reign, they have no one to blame but themselves.

Jedediah York

thanks for those projection links, Dinero. Very cool.

I would take those numbers in a heartbeat. However, I have to think Melky will do a little better. Belt’s projection, on the other hand, seems very optimistic. Everything else feels right, provided that health isn’t an issue.

If Freddy can be his usual self, but healthy (fingers crossed), than I think this lineup can approach average. That’s what I think the Giants need in order to compete: an average offense.

ClutchUp

channelclemente says: November 30th, 2011 at 4:07 pm 53

CC and Dinero: My thought on Sandoval is that he will have to still fight the demons of the 59footer in the dirt or the eye high fastball. Do I think he can be a Triple Crown threat? Hmmmm…not in todays specialized world but not because of Pablo, but because some clubs will refuse to let him beat them if he isn’t protected…

He is 2-3 yrs away from being the disciplined hitter that Fielder is currently. Seeing 1000 pitches thrown at him BUT not swinging might be the ONLY viable drill remaining for him and BLamar, him and BamBam, he and Will Clark and all the other instructor types that are dying to work with him. Undisciplined hitters can appear FIXED in a batting cage or doing side field work but often times a hitter will revert back to form UNTIL it BANG finally happens. Who can forget a young Matt Williams or a much maligned Pedro Feliz flailing on pitches out of the strike zone.

Now that his vision is repaired/tweaked, Pablo (let forego Panda) should be a force to reckon with. Beltran made him a better approach hitter. Sandoval went to Left field more times in 2011 during Beltran’s time here than Sandoval had done in other combined years.

This just about says as much as the numbers can tell you. The take home lesson is hang it up by 33 and no contracts over 1-2 years for anyone 29 or older. It’s up to guys with CU’s POV to find the value prospects among the 31+ year old players. The numbers won’t help you there except insofar as the clear admonition of buyer beware. That’s why the Pujols to the Cardinals is stupid, unless the DH comes to the NL.

ClutchUp

Jedediah York says: November 30th, 2011 at 4:33 pm 221..

Freddy Sanchez: I wonder how much all concerned will be when he makes and takes one of his pattented dives in the RF/1base hole area to make one of his great plays.

I differ on Sandoval on a minor point. I think when he got back last year he did hit the high hard one. Ergo my comment on uncanny bat speed. By high, I mean letter high, not head high. He showed a real improvement taking that pitch the opposite way as well. Just uncanny bat speed, I bet he never picked up a metal bat.

ClutchUp

Channel:

1) Ban the DH
2) Re-Name ATT Willie Mays Field @ ATT Park
3) Think Outside the Box and retire 2 non-hall of fame players who both wore #22 and both had last names of Clark.

start the petition. I hate the efin DH. I wonder if there is such a thing as an online petition?

Oh, while complaining, I hope Bochy sets up a fine system for not going all in to 1B on a groundball and doubles that fine for gazing at how majestic a long fly ball is.

ClutchUp

Pablo swinging metal back home in Venezuela…doubtful and tremendous point by the way CC.

Pablo and high pitches, okay thats another good point we can agree on. Some young(er) type hitters have been let down IMO by hitting instructors since the beginning of time.

IF, very huge little word… a hitter takes one pitch and wants a so called high pitch to be thrown to him because he wants to hit the pelota very very FAR, his self-talk-little-man in his head has to empower that thought process moment by visually searching for that particular pitch OUT OF the pitchers hand. If such a pitch is “asked for and wish granted”, that pitch will slow down for the batter/Pablo and seemingly look like the size of a beach ball.

If the same pitch is just offered at in a reactionary manner and “gets on” the hitter late… that’s a guaranteed swing through. (for anybody)

ClutchUp

channelclemente says: November 30th, 2011 at 4:45 pm 223..@CU,Oh, while complaining, I hope Bochy sets up a fine system for not going all in to 1B on a groundball and doubles that fine for gazing at how majestic a long fly ball is.

—WoW, this is a toughy. I can sit HS and College Players but respectfully the culture of ML ball players is bewildering. Some or most are taught by older mentors to run hard from the box and 90% of the time that gait or stride does not make the average fan happy. Shawon Dunston got into Bonds face one time in the dugout, and the subject matter quickly died down and MIND YOU not because Dunston nor you were incorrect.

For some reason hitters think they know which speed to accelerate to when they hit 1 to 3 hoppers directly AT any of the 4 infielders…. We could debate this until Zack Wheeler gets traded back to SF.

I think the fly ball issue can be fixed…much easier…. Either way, I feel the pain of fans, but also have been able to (ugh) understand it some.

Chatwood is a roockie so he is under control for awhile and Is going to do well in the NL especially the NL west. A young pitcher on the rise.

Then they signed catcher Ramon Hernadez

They basically just stole a good young pitcher under team control for the next 4 years for nothing.

Great move

Wish the Giants would get that creative.

primetimedonna

Anti

So are you saying you don’t believe in true love????

ClutchUp

channelclemente says: November 30th, 2011 at 5:00 pm 226..@CU,
I bet if they compiled it in a stat that impacted their next contract negotiation or arbitration settlement, their gaze’s might be lowered. Call it total bases lost to stupidity for the gaze.

—Won’t happen, but you and I can dream. The inner, within the inner within the inner culture of this particular subject matter will never change, but IT IS a mojo that only exhists within the temple of their soul. If they wanted to…they would do it, but it has to do with their perception of that one to three hopper hit directly at one of the four IF’s.

They get exposed when said ball is bobbled and or thrown late to first base and then its too late to turn it on. The Players Union would vote down our dream document.

The fly ball issue is correctable…

primetimedonna

CC & Clutch

Couldn’t the coaches do it in house?? It really is annoying!

ClutchUp

Anti-Lasorda says: November 30th, 2011 at 5:06 pm

Zito’s bride to be:

Key word, almost all. What was WITH the photo with the black strip across her face….like yea … that’s gonna throw people off. 😉

We all watched Beltran ‘gaze’ a triple into a double and a couple of doubles into singles last year. Maybe that and him responding ‘slowly’ on balls hit to his right might have colred some of our judgements.

Chatwood, a top prospect, no slider or cutter, and a ~5 ERA, what an odd definition of quality or desperation.

Anti-Lasorda

Nothing of the sort Donna….

I just don’t believe in true love with a stripper….. a la Santangelo. Okay, maybe not a stripper, but a former playmate….

Mrs. Zito is not a stripper so maybe he got lucky.

To use an analogy…

It’s been my personal experience, that though Ferrari’s look REALLY cool, and drive REALLY fast, they spend more time in the shop or in the garage than on the road….

You talk to the average dude, and the car he can drive everyday. That starts everytime, and takes him the hard miles up mountains and downhills…. that Ford or Chevy he’s put 300,000 miles on.. that’s the care he truly loves.

That’s not to say some of use haven’t purchased a GT50 or a Corvette!

I hope Mr. Zito found his Corvette……

Lefty

Clutch at 1:40 p.m.: That Dodger fan list is great, but they forgot one: To go with fourth inning arrivals, seventh inning departures. It’s unbelievable. I even saw people leaving in the ninth inning of a tie game on a SATURDAY night. No traffic and no work tomorrow, but still.

Funny story. We visited a church in Orange County a few years back, and we’re startled to see people get up and leave as soon as the sermon was over, even though there were a couple more things remaining in the service. Hand to God, I turned to Mr. Lefty and said “Dodger fans!”

I think Jagger Huff is the most awesome baseball baby name ever, and I hope he’s playing RF for the Giants come around 2033.

Catcher: bummed we didn’t get Ramon. Guessing young Hector and his sizzling switch-hitting are getting a long, long look in ST. Could get a lot of starts with Buster needing days “off” to play 1B.

Really am having trouble with that sarcasm thing today! Was being quite facetious!

Ultimately if seems a car is a cheaper way to go if you’re trying to exert that I’m a pro ballplayer machismo. But then again Mr. Zito already has a lamborghini among other cars.

Hoping all goes well for them, but my usual optimisim is being tested…….

ClutchUp

primetimedonna says: November 30th, 2011 at 5:26 pm
CC & ClutchCouldn’t the coaches do it in house?? It really is annoying!

Sure, conceptually it seems correctable and in reality it IS perplexing but it IS a foregone conclusion that it does exhist within the players culture of indifference. Hopefully now that the PED world is gone (almost gone, some were never caught and are still playing roulette) the foot speed factor could return to day to day baseball.

Damp weather + lower bodies like Barry had…or Ricky Henderson’s quads and hammies were dealt with by trainers edicts to “be careful” with quick burst movements affecting fast twitch fibers. Even the Jose Reyes’ of the world cannot stay on the field.

Players telling other players that such and such is unacceptable is much more empowering than Bochy through Roberto Kelly making mention of such a gaffe. In fact most of all that stuff happens IN HOUSE save the 2010 Pablo – Sabean – Bochy presser and their 2011 Huff presser. As a coach both of those made me shriek.

Take the major league stand up double for example. Every single player playing in every park in both leagues knows EXACTLY how much he has to “give of himself” out of the batters box in order to get to second base safely based on where exactly his ball went, down either line, up against all the fences or where into each gap.

primetimedonna

Lefty

Maybe we should hope to see Jagger Huff in LF or at 1B…….RF was a little scary for Dad this year!! ;>)

But I agree, quite the baseball name!

Lefty

Donna,

Jagger won’t be a smoker, so he’ll be able to run down balls in RF. Lee Posey will be playing 1B because Mrs. Buster won’t let him be a catcher.

Think positive. Maybe adding a beautiful new wife to the player wives section will motivate Zito!

Anti-Lasorda

If we sign Ronny Cendeno like I have been advocating, his wife might trump them all.

Check out Aura Avila….

AYE YIE YIE!!!! That’s one hot tamale!

ClutchUp

I like Freddy Sanchez’ bride….aka Old School (OG)

Mavo

Thanks for the link to the video about the San Quentin Prison ball team. Funny thing but in 1972 my semi-pro team played them there!! And I almost started a riot during the game!! This guy tried to score from 2nd on a line single to right … our rightfielder threw a perfect strike to me at the plate … the guy was out by at least 10 feet … as he slid into my shin guards I laid an easy tag on him … then the guy kicked me with his spikes … so I fell on top of him and shall we say I “tagged” him rather hard in the face!! With that he jumped up and wanted to fight me.. but the guards were right on top of it and pulled him off me. I got a ton of grief from my teammates for ages about the time I almost started a prison riot at San Quentin!! So that video really hit home for me.

Oh by the way, we kicked their butts that day … 11-2 or something like that and I went 3 for 4 with a couple of extra base hits and 3 RBI’s. One of the most memorable games I ever played in!!

Mavo

meant to add Thanks Clutchup to my previous posting…

JD4SF

Anti-Lasorda says:
November 30th, 2011 at 5:01 pm
Everyone seen the new alternate roadies?

“This grey road jersey was worn by several division championship teams at Candlestick Park, including the 1989 National League Championship club.”

primetimedonna

Lefty

LOL! Good points! Giants 2010 2.0 would be nice! Evan and Ryan Sanchez would round off the infield nicely. Jayce Huff at 3rd?

Clutch

Thanks for the behind the scenes info…..hope that some steps are taken to say that dogging it to 1st won’t be tolerated. On a team where you need all the run output you can get, you need to take advantage of EVERY opportunity.

JD4SF

In case folks didn’t notice … the prison team is the San Quentin GIANTS.

Nate Schierholtz is getting married (same day as Zito) in Texas to his longtime girlfriend, 25-year-old business consultant Kate Eveland. Seems Nate and Barry won’t be attending each other’s weddings. ;-/

But Nate’s Kate is yet another pretty addition to the Giants player wives group. 🙂

JD4SF

And let’s not forget Crawford is on his honeymoon in Hawaii with another pretty addition to the Giants wives.

You guys will have several new pretty ladies to enjoy watching in 2012. 😉

JD4SF

Per his own Tweet, Panda won’t be playing winter ball in Venezuela.

hari

MLB luxury tax takes effect on $170M or more team budget, and that ceiling should be the target of +30 speculative Partners who own Giants.

Last year +81 sold out home games and same going into 2012 – means critical credit cash flow will not be a problem to get a lineup which will deliver next WS win to the Bay Area fans and world-wide.

Moreover, this target of $130M is a joke because 2/3 will be taken by pitching staff and whatnot. How about getting two years contract on Beltran and, if possible, Rollins?

totalfan62

Lots of great posts today, folks. Well worth the extra time devoted to reading most all of them. Usual kudos to Clutch, CC, Lefty, Primetimedonna, A-L and others…y’all are much appreciated.

My thoughts on Giants 2012 have not changed, so I won’t post again as most know I’m big on the Brandons and locking down Timmy and Cainer. And no way on Beltran: too much money for a declining and injured primadonna. Those who tout his 2011 numbers for us should look at his splits August vs September. When we really needed him, he came up way short of expectations.

I always liked those gray road unis. The interlocking SF on the upper left top is understated, classy and very nice looking.

I would also LOVE to see another alternate home uni: brilliant white (vs. current cream) SLEEVELESS top with block GIANTS (bigger G and S, mid-80s look) and sharp black/orange trim. Baltimore Orioles (with same black/orange color theme as SFG) showed this look a couple of years back, and they looked great!

I like the Giants 2010 2.0 infield, and I know Cody Ross has several children who might be able to help in the outfield.

The pitchers mostly aren’t keeping up. Lincecum is single, and Cain has a daughter (future Mrs. Lee Posey?). I think Romo has a new baby boy, and Affeldt has two boys, so there’s some help for the bullpen, but we may need new blood for the 2033 starting rotation–wait! Vogelsong has a little boy. There’s one.

bseismic

(sigh)…

I wish my life was going so well that I could get as worked up over all this as some of you.

Our ballpark is a pitchers ballpark. Big bat free agents do not want to play here. Mid level free agents have to be overpaid and that hasn’t really worked out well for the fans or management).

pfffft… who cares, right now? It’s all about football right now.

Lefty

Bseismic,

No, you don’t get it. For some of us, this is an escape BECAUSE our lives are not going well. For example, I work on the campus where “The Pepper Spray Heard ‘Round the World” was fired, and several on here are battling serious or terminal illnesses.

And yes, thank God for football this time of year, but it doesn’t replace baseball. Nothing quite does.

Foothills Ryan

Western Civilization is collapsing as it eventually would. We turn to baseball knowing full well, in another life, we will be sprinting across the diamond, roaming the vast green outfield, digging into the box or roaring with the crowd.

TitoMac

Foothills Ryan

Are you good with that outfield?

between the 5 can we hope for 40hr and 200 rbi’s

And the fact none really get on base alot I do not even think they can replecate thier average runs batted in.

And the fact they are not MLB at bats 1/2 of them they hurt there teamates chances to knock in runs.

That Outfiled sucks and you will be looking to upgrade soon and very soon. AGAIN

1/2 those guys belong in Fresno easily. They are not Major Leaguers.

Anti-Lasorda

MLBTR Reports Angels are in search of relief help. Could a Rameriez or Affeldt for Erick Aybar deal be had? Would much prefer to deal Rameriez….

Aybar would solve the leadoff and SS problem. He’s under team control for another year and he would be under $5M….

Just an idear….

primetimedonna

Lefty

LOL We really can field that 2010 2.0 team. Affeldt has two boys Walker and Logan (Logan was born around the same time as Jagger Huff….during the pennant race last year in September), Ross has a son Hudson, I think, Vogelsong’s son is Ryer and Romo has two boys Rilen and who can forget Rex Ryder born this year.

Maybe we’ll get some more future players via trades and Free Agency?

Anti-Lasorda

Foothills,

You’re getting pretty close in my mind.

A couple of observations. If you sign Cedeno for $2.25 you really don’t need Fontenot and can roll with Conor Gillespie as the 2nd back up IF since you won’t need to cover SS. He can back up Freddy and Pablo, and you have a platoon of Cedeno and Crawford at SS. If you don’t like Gillespie, you could hope Crawford and Cedeno could cover the IF positions between them and bring up Pill for the RH bat off the bench. Either way you pocket the 820K.

That would give you roughly $7-8M to find a RH OF Bat to upgrade over Ross. You would need a leadoff guy or a RH thumper. The longer time has gone on, to me Cabrera is Ross’s direct replacement. If you want to stick with Ross as the RH pop and pocket the $3-4M and upgrade a back-up catcher that could work too. Problem is the ones with good sticks have signed……

I have no problem with Cody as a 4th OF. It’s a role he’s ideal for. When he gets hot you can play him for an extended period because he can cover all three spots. Good clubhouse guy, but I was a little concerned when I heard he grumbled over playing time when Beltran was acquired. That may have been Rowand rubbing off on him.

My impression is Ross wants a situation where he could contribute everyday (or at least 4 out of 5) and he would like to secure a 2 -3 year contract at arounf $15-18M. Whether or not the market bears that will be interesting to see…..

TitoMac

A-L

remind me why angels want to give up on Aybar at SS?

Foothills Ryan

Well Tito, you are right. That is an outfield that may only squeeze out 50-60 HR’s. Full time Nate could pop 15-20. Cabrera somewhere between 10-15. Ross could pop 10-15 in platoon action. Belt could pop 20-25 but some of those would come as a first baseman. Maybe Huff pops five as an outfielder and all other outfielders are good for maybe 5. Could be 80 HRs if the stars align for those OF’s.

Anti-Lasorda

Clutch…

Mrs. Freddy Sanchez is the girl you marry and take home to mom…..

The others being discussed never meet the parents.

TitoMac

A-L

In that weak outfield Ross is the only one with any legit power and has posted 2 years where he has hit over 20 home runs and driven in over 80 rbi’s

Cabrera and Schierholtz a good year would be 10 home runs and 60 rbi’s Cabrera has had 70 rbi’s Schierholtz has never had over 41 rbi’s.

The way are outfield is constructed now Torres needs to be a part and Ross needs to be every day right fielder with Torres in center and Milky in left.

That would be the best case scenario. In your cheapness effort.

Kum Ba Yah, My Lord, Kum Ba Yah! Carlos Beltran My Lord, Kum Ba Yah!

Keep’n It Real

Giants have 4 of the top 23 (total list of 50) MLB players at 25 years and younger; per Keith Law – ESPN.

I’m not a big fan of Law, but it’s an interesting read.

Posey #4, MadBum #9, Pablo #19, Belt #23.

TitoMac

Keep’n It Real

You know way more about your Giants then Keith Law.

That guy is a walking billboard for geek with pencil protector who sounds like a feminine Pee Wee Herman at best.

PLEASE!

Keep’n It Real

For those that had previously mentioned going after the Pirates’ Andrew McCutchen…Law had McCutchen ranked #2 (after Justin Upton).

Law also mentioned (in a separate posting) “Huntington (Pirates GM) made it very clear internally that they will consider moving him, because he wants big money on an extension and they’re not going to pay it. I think the Upton extension is a good comp, and if that’s what McCutchen wants, I’d give it to him.”

TitoMac

Foothill

How and where can anybody even dream about Nate hitting 15-20 hrs

He is just going to double his career year out of the blue.

PLEASE!

If he did that we would still be looking for an upgrade. I really do not think he has over 12 ever in him. And if he did hit 12 he would be struggling with his average below .200. He has to give up average for power and visa versa. He basically sucks.

TitoMac

I would be knocking on the Pirates door and waving

Belt, Schierholtz, Ramirez and Surkamp around for Andrew McCutchen

any 3 for 1 Andrew McCutchen.

Anti-Lasorda

I would be verry happy to chase McCutcheon.

I would not want include Belt or Gary Brown in those discussions. The pirates would insist on Brown being thst starting point. I might be able to schuck and jive and do something with Pegeuro instead but I wouldn’t count on it.

Belt would be interesting to ponder…. Especially since I might have to park Posey at 1B anyway, and if I could keep Brown I would just about cream myself for an OF with Brown and McCutcheon at AT&T.

The Pence deal would be a good guideline for what the Pirates would expect for compensation. Four to Five higher end prospects. Surkamp would be the 3rd or 4th best member of that group.

Dinero… who would you put in a package for McCutcheon, and do you think we could do it without surrendering Brown or Belt?

The Reds, seeing the ballon payment on Joey Votto’s last 2 contract years, are thinking of trading him now. They want the dust to settle on Fielder and Pujols before the really put him out there.

ClutchUp

primetimedonna says: December 1st, 2011 at 12:33 am 253..LeftyLOL! Good points! Giants 2010 2.0 would be nice! Evan and Ryan Sanchez would round off the infield nicely. Jayce Huff at 3rd?

Donna & Lefty: You two can be hilarious. One never knows how strong the MamaBear_101_Baggers group is until one just comes here and reads the preplanning involved in now under 10 yr olds being groomed to be Giants in decades to come.

I think I would rather trade the farm for McCutcheon before Votto, but it’s an interesting argument. There no way Votto would every sign here on his own free will, so what would you trade for 2 high price years of Votto and a chance to try an woo him for an extension?

Anti-Lasorda

Bumgarner is a no-go PERIOD. Talks concluded….

Anti-Lasorda

Channel where does Cincy start with Votto?

TitoMac

Belt , Brown and Schierholtz for McCutchen get r done.

Belt We have an overload of 1st base prospects and candidates.

Schierholtz cause he is a cheap outfielder that is serviceable for a Pirate team that will never amount to chit for Giants.

Brown cause McCutcheon is what we can only dream what brown could be.

ClutchUp

primetimedonna says: December 1st, 2011 at 12:33…..hope that some steps are taken to say that dogging it to 1st won’t be tolerated. On a team where you need all the run output you can get, you need to take advantage of EVERY opportunity.

—Very few position players “dog” it but they do – do what we discussed yesterday. We cannot “fix it” it pitchers like Timmy NEVER even get anywhere near the bag when THEY hit the dribbler to the mound.

Granted the SF dugout at ATT is the 3rd base dugout, but in 2011 Lincecum “broke off” his route about 60% down the line.

Position players do what we call “half-a$$ it” but (a) it’s not going to change unless the play for a fire and brimstone skipper and (b) actually the G men have way more things to get fixed than their collective efforts running to first base.

ClutchUp

Mavo says: November 30th, 2011 at 10:34 pm 252..

San Quentin: Thanks for sharing that memory. Your one statement made me smile. “We played them THERE”. Yup, THEY don’t have any road games, but of course we knew what you meant.

One local scout was there once just observing. He sees inmates watching from behind bars back of the outfield. This scout sees an inmate waving to him and he recognizes the inmate. The inmate hollers:
“…But I was framed”….

-Classic!

Keep’n It Real

Anti – If McCutcheon is a CF…and Brown is a CF…why wouldn’t you throw in Brown to get this trade done? McCutcheon is already a proven MLB commodity and Brown is still a prospect (although a highly rated one).

I would also ask, “OK…am I getting punked?” if MadBum’s name was ever brought into the conversation.

I’m not sure. I heard the Votto stuff last night on MLB’s ‘Hot Stove’. I think he’s owed 27-30 million in the next two years and they realize that they probably can’t hold him.

Looking at Foothill’s # and LU (which sems a reasonable one now) I wonder if Wilson has some exposure. His whole effectiveness comes of the slider as being his out pitch, and he substituted his cutter in it’s place last year. Without his slider he’s just another good closer, maybe like Nathan. Given what the closers are getting paid, and how hungry teams like the Red Sox are for closers, maybe he’s about to be in the wind, especially given how incredibly rich the Red Sox farm system is by NL West standards.

We may love Baumgarner, but McCutchen has a cumulative WAR of over 12 the last 3 years and a 5.5 last year, that makes him A+ as a talent, now. As for Brown, great potential, but only maybe is he ever as good as McCutchen, someday, 4-5 years from now.

Friendly Fire

Planet Earth to Hannibal Lecter Dolt: Support the sf giants team, not individual players….get off of the nate hate, he is not going anyway…get off of supporting only those who share your same ethnicity…get off of personalizing your posts to individuals who haven’t addressed theirs to you…..geesh.

Anti-Lasorda

KIR,

I’m with Clutch, I want to get Supa’ fast in the OF. Move one to RF or LF and imagine all the outs ou would create.

The defensive OF of McCutcheon and Brown would eat lots of fly balls and swipe lots of bags….

I would rather give Belt than Brown in a trade.

To me Brown is ideal for AT&T, Belt has HUGE upside, but after his control years are done he’s signing with Texas or Houston or some other AL bandbox…. And with him coming up at 23 he’ll get to leave when he’ 28 just like Fielder.

Hopefully we deal him before then for more than just the two draft picks the Brewers will recieve as compensation for Fielder… Of course, the Brewers couldn’t trade Prince, and their playoff off run was carried on his back.

If Brown is what we think he is, he’ll be much more likely to stay around and be successful in our park. His defense and his arm will be much larger assets as well….

Controversy is stirring about the upcoming Ben Affleck and Matt Damon film, “The Trade,” which aims to recount the 1970’s “wife swap” scandal, involving former Yankees Mike Kekich and Fritz Peterson. The scandal, which began in 1972 but wasn’t leaked to the media until 1973, eventually led to the two swaping wives permanently. The idea started from a joke the two long-time friends and pitchers made over dinner.

—Another who left us too soon. Saw Curtis Mayfield and The Impressions at the now defunct Circle Star Theater.
That SuperFly Soundrack album was in almost every home on the planet. Hard hitting lyrics on the state of affairs in urban ghettos…

9pm last evening in Redwood City California (Formerly Deadwood City) aka Weather Best By Government Test.

Walking to car after taking young neice and her friends to portable Outdoor Ice rink.

Sitting at table chatting: 3 men, one unidentifiable. The Other Two.

Dusty Baker and Keena Turner, both looking dapper.

Keep’n It Real

ClutchUp (re:”The Trade”):

Read the article you provided. Kind of funny that Affleck/Damon can make lots money off this movie (topic will get people to watch…even in DVD) and stick it to the Yankees at the same time.

I would have loved to be with those guys when they came up with this idea and laughed their azzes off. I could also see them temporarily stopping their laughter to insert a Charlie Sheen “Winning!” in there too.

boy are you right about no baseball. What drew to MLB channel last nightwas 40 biggest fan incidents. Bill Vecks ‘death to disco 10cent beer night’ won (1979). That’s like watching hubcaps, but Hot Stove was on after it, so there you go, something interesting.

Anti-Lasorda says: December 1st, 2011 at 12:34 pm 306..I can think of ONE thing that fills the void left by baseball…..I’ll take my stick and steup up to that plate anytime of year.Last I check there was no offseason for this sport either……..

LOL. You ‘ol envelope pusher you…

Anti-Lasorda

Clutch…

You have to bid on something Giants related….

At the Yah-D with La Russa would be interesting, but how could it compete with the Say Hey Kid?

Anti-Lasorda

Maicer Izturis is definately being shopped by Anahiem. Can play SS as well as 2nd and third….. wouldn’t want him at SS everyday but is serviceable.

hit .295 wuith a .780 OPS as RH batter last year. Means he would platoon well with Crawford.

I would imagine Ramon Rameriez could fetch him pretty easy, and roughly the same slary between the two.

Anti-Lasorda

Found out, Izturius is expensive for what you get, signed for 2012 at $3.8M. Of course, in a market where Barmes gets $11M he might be considered a steal….

For me, Brown is untouchable. I definitely see the argument for the deal, McCutchen is proven and Brown is an unknown. From a business perspective, it makes sense. But I’ve already grown attached to Brown, watching him play in SJ, and I would absolutely love to watch him play in ATT. The fan in me would be much more satisfied by that, as opposed to a guy I’ve barely ever even seen play on TV. I know, I’m a little biased here, but I’m ok with that.

I’m not quite as attached to Belt, but close. I could see him headlining a trade though, as we’ve gone over before, given the impending logjam at 1B. I would wait though, to see what’s going to happen with Posey. I would wait at least until next winter. If Posey looks like he’s going to have to play 1B sooner rather than later, I would seriously consider a package involving Belt. If it looks like Buster will be able to catch for a few more years, I would use Sanchez as the headliner and hope for Joseph and/or Susac to step up as the next backstop in the pipeline.

It would definitely take Belt and Brown (if not more) to get McCutchen I imagine. We don’t have too much more in our system that’s even close to that level — yet at least. Sanchez and Panik are close, Oropesa could certainly be that good. If the Pirates were interested in the deal, a business man would have to seriously consider it. The fan in me would say heck no, though. As you guys know I have a soft spot for homegrown players.

Anti-Lasorda

Clutch,

24s hand maybe big….

Michael Jefferey Jordans are obscene….

I’m a large man mind you, my hands are not petite, but Jordan is an inch and a half taller than me and his hands were at least twice my size…..

Anti: Me thinks Michael ane Willie should compete. People used to talk about Sonny Liston’s hands….

Jordan, wow. Mays wow. Speaks about the success in their respective sports. Jordan got MORE rotation on the ball than anyone, maybe save Elgin Baylor and Mays’ wrists and hands were what we thought they were.

ClutchUp

I had the pleasure of watching Susac play when he was young but everyone at the showcase (about 250 coaches) all remarked how much more (ready) he looked for his then next level (Oregon St)

Nobody knows for sure but he may pass a few Catchers by.

ClutchUp

Dinero said: As you guys know I have a soft spot for homegrown players.

++++++++++++++++++++++++

TitoMac

The NBA is back!

Woo Hooo!

Love watching Monta Ellis play. The kid has game.

TitoMac

Hey Clutchup

you need somebody to read those rules for you.

You are the biggest crier of the rules but also the biggest offender.

Get Real PUNK!

Keep’n It Real

ClutchUp @ 12:56pm

“For anybody who cares vs. the one who does not.”

I would like to take this opportunity to let everyone know that I sent an email Bud Geracie (Executive Sports Editor) about you-know-who and actually received a response.

Here are a few key points (paraphrased):

* They are very aware of you-know-who and have banned him a few times on this blog and others. Somehow he has been able to finagle his way back to the blog.

* They will continue to monitor this person’s postings and continue to ban him as appropriate.

* It is strongly recommended to ignore this person’s existence. If there is no interaction with this person, they will go somewhere else to get the attention they (obviously) crave. This is the most effective solution, since they cannot monitor 100% of the time.

I forwarded a copy of this email to ClutchUp and he can verify that all this indeed to place. Thought it was appropriate to send thi sout at this time…

LOL We Mama Bears are always looking out for those cubs….the older ones as well as their little ones!

Okay, maybe dogging it is a bit harsh, and I realize we have more pressing problems, but I just find it so annoying when the runner jogs down the line or stops part way to the base only to see the defender bobble or drop the ball. A full on run could have ended up with a runner on first and maybe the beginning of a rally. I semi understand if it’s the 3rd out and the pitcher is conserving his energy (though not really) but what are the other players conservng that energy for? Sometimes we struggle just to put the ball in play, so the least we can do is try to turn it into a baserunner. If nothing else maybe it is a little sprinting practice. ;>) Sometimes we Mama Bears can be harsh!

maybe you have come up with a new , uhm, saber stat with the wives angle. Calendar = stat sheet = $$$

TitoMac

A Gone is a terrible option

.291 obp career UGLY!

When the pitching gets better he gets worse. We have enough of those guys all ready. Slow a foot limited range.

Better one year deals out there to be had.

I am the Idiot

Par for the coarse you ungodly heathens drooling over someones wife.

That you claim to be a fan of. How ungodly is that.

If anyone needs to be banned repeatedly its you god forsaken heathens.

Foothills Ryan

Alex Gonzalez’ nickname is “Sea Bass”. Perfect, it’s a foregone conclusion, he’s coming to town. How did he fly under the radar? Just assumed the Braves would re-sign him.

ClutchUp

FootHills: Too bad the nicknamed SeaBass from ATL isn’t as successful as the Raider kicker by the same nickname…

@CC: I defer to you regarding ANY sabr mention whether it be between the lines or between the sheets…

Wonder if the Koufax’s, Mantles, Aaron’s etc of their world would have thought that the Society for American Baseball Research acronym SABR was part of the NOW baseball world or in Mantle’s case his Oklahoma upbringing may have made him think that SABR was a type of big game animal… that he could have hunted. 😉

Koufax would have enjoyed the thoughtful piece of sabrmetrics, Mantle could barely read, unless it was a bottle of JD, and Aaron would have been amused.

It does beg a question though, with Valentine going to the Red Sox, I wonder what Bill James, there chief consultant on sabr issues, will do? I’ve heard that the Cubs rely on someone else, Tom Tango maybe, for that input on traes and drafting.

If Wandy Rodriquez with the Astros came into the trade market, as he may, that would make a dandy #5.

primetimedonna

CC

It’s happening again.

primetimedonna

Big oops!!

Make that Alex GONZALEZ!!!!!

ClutchUp

Donna: Big Oops but made me smile, thought you were talking about Madonna’s ex…The One who forgot he took PED’s…Yankee Boy 😉

ClutchUp

OFF TOPIC 1.0

My colleague and I were eating our lunch in our cafeteria, when we overheard an admin girl talking about the sunburn she got on her weekend drive to the beach. She drove down in a convertible, but said she ‘didn’t think she’d get sunburned because the car was moving’.
-They Walk Among Us!

I hadn’t heard the rumor about Reyes to the Brewers. Maybe that makes them a stronger, albeit different team, than with Fielder.

“The team (Marlins) already hosted him in its new ballpark on Nov. 9, and made an offer that Fox Sports reported was for six years and $90 million. Although Brewers GM Doug Melvin has also contacted Reyes’ agent, no other offers have surfaced.”

I was watching that clip on Nestor Molina and the LHBs seem to have his slider zeroed in. Later in the clip, did you notice he seemed to be telegraphing the slider I think with his hip movement (his left bun flexes out), at least, since I can’t see the actual pitch, it looked like his slider from frequency and speed. It does look like he’s got a pretty good 2 seam.

JD4SF

Question: Has Brandon Crawford played other than SS? Potential as a utility player?

Anti-Lasorda

Brewers and Cards are also in on A-Gone…. Sea Bass… washed up… whatever…

I hope we loose this race.

Anti-Lasorda

Crawford played 2 games at 3B for San Jose in 2010.

Otherwise he has always played short.

Rule of thumb, he could play anywhere in the IF with his range and arm.

Hot corner would/could be the hardest to adapt to because you don’t get a hop to read. It is just a sheer reaction position.

I don’t think it would be a problem for Craw though……

ClutchUp

JD4SF

Crawdaddy has been such a good SS all the way up the youth/HS/NCAA chain that he has played 95% of his reps at SS.

I hear you on the SS glove/arm and 3B being a reflex position. I was always at SS as a kid because I had great reflexes and even playing real deep I could still bullet the ball to 1B. As I slowed down in my 30s (playing co-ed by then) and had less range I moved to 3B and relied mostly on reflex and arm. By my mid 40s I conceded to the younger, more agile players and moved to 1B – get it anywhere near me and I had it in the glove … gotta love the SS glove experience! 😉

I’m thinking it may be smart for Crawford to expand his horizons so he is more versatile.

Anti-Lasorda

Theriot would be real nice with his .310/.356/.413 splits versus LHers…

Perfect complimentary player for Crawford.

He’s just projected to be about $4M if he’s non-tendered by the Cards.

channelclemente says:
December 1st, 2011 at 5:42 pm
JDSF4,
or he could just hit .240, I’m close to begging.
=====

I’d love to see .240+ from Crawford, and think he’ll get there.

I was thinking more along the lines of long term planning when I suggested more versatility for Crawford. Going forward instead of having a SS logjam if he has some 3B and even 2B (different footwork) experience that will increase his options and value as a player … even if he isn’t a strong bat. But yes, it sure helps if his bat is reliable.

cocoloco

To the Giants:

STOP spending money on old over the hill players !!! Will you ever learn?? Let Crawford play short and spend the damn money on someone who can actually make the team better !! Retards !!!

ClutchUp

JF4SF:

Versatility within MLB. HS and College players with versatility help their repective clubs and Outfielders like Christian and Melky add pizazz to their respective mixes but a guy like Crawford played SS in his mama bears womb and I doubt the Giants have even entertained using the word Crawford and versatility in the same sentence.

Of course YOU already know that and perhaps are looking out for his overall good.

If we twinkled our noses and Freddy Sanchez did not exist at all and Jose Reyes was and had been our SS, then by all means Crawford would slide over to secondbase, but right now like COCOLOCO said Crawford needs to play and fail, fail and play, play-play-play and fail.

His learning curve cannot begin until he imparts on this journey described. He is not going to become anyone’s SS of the future by playing less and sitting and watching.

Let him play and go 1-3/4/5. He needs to mitagate his 3-4 at bats in the 8 hole by acquiring a keen eye…hit by pitches and base on balls.

Boy knowing what I’ve read lately, the Giants really missed an opportunity in not grabbing David Dejesus. Apparently he was recovering from a hand injury to the hamat (sp) when he came from KC for his stay with the A’s. His career line was 0.284/0.356/0.421, 0.776 before his As interlude. Great leadoff option. He finished up August/September hitting his career numbers. The Cubs got a major deal for $4MM.

Hitting .220 or so in Fresno is not going to buy young Crawford a bus ticket to SF, no matter the glove or number of positions he plays. I say that as long as the Giants want to contend. If building is the goal, play him for 162, and we’ll kick the tires flat..

ClutchUp

Anti-Lasorda says: December 1st, 2011 at 5:30 pm Clutch, you implying a housecleaning at KNBR might be next?

A-L: Not sure how BIG it might be but Byrnes took a bad time to go run is Ironman last week. Jim Kozimor’s first night was fabulous and they he morphed into what he thought we wanted him to be (an older Eric Brynes) and Kozimor’s show last night was pathetic, talking to his board Op’s and taking fewer calls 95.7 (who doesnt do calls). Kozimor then told a story about his ChiTown dad visiting here and he took him to the Bears/Raiders game and the Sharks vs. Chicago game. He said before his 945pm break that he’d be back at 950 and take 10 minutes of calls. Never happened.

Kevin Lynch is a keeper. Barbieri has played his Parkinson’s card (which did not work) and now is throwing out barbs about if he goes Amici’s will pull their sponsorship.

KNBR should have held on to Joe Castellanos and even Chris Townsend although Towny is a screamer ala Kruegar and Bruce. Someone please locate for me the lovely Cass Centano of vintage KNBR….days…

if the idiots on radio had any sense, they’d get Kate Scott over there. Oh that voice!!

ClutchUp

CC: Re: Crawford, okay fess up. Did Brandon fail to show up at a Rotary Club meeting or what because he hasn’t done anything to deserve your veiled-negative opinion of him.

If we go 100-62 and he contributes to 15 wins but is the cause for 25 of the 62 losses because he did not drive in a run so be it. He needs to play. His hitting will come around and his defense behind OUR entire pitching staff will play dividends.

Remember NOBODY on our staff holds runners at first base except Mad Bum. With Posey and Stewarts quick release we still need someone (Crawford) who can drop the quickest tag down on the sliding runner. Crawford did that 4-5 times last season wheras Tejada OCab and Kepp tagged runners sliding in like those three were in slow motion.

Free Crawford, Oh and Channel you won’t have to beg. Hitters already fail 70% of the time. Maybe Crawford will fail at the plate 80% of the time but his glove will be featured on the HI-Lite Reals at 9-10 and 11 pm Sports.

ClutchUp

channelclemente says: December 1st, 2011 at 6:52 pm @CU,if the idiots on radio had any sense, they’d get Kate Scott over there. Oh that voice!!

—Kate “did her” own show the day after Thanksgiving. 10 to about noon or 1pm. The Girl did good.

with Crawford I feel like the ‘jilted fan’. I look at that range, smooth weight shifting, soft hands and almost unbelieveable skill in the hole and I see a SS version of Ryan Sandberg at 2b. If the mutt will just hit .240+. He’s like that friend you used to go to the movies with as a kid, who never had the $$ to get in, and kept hitting up up for the price of admission. Get a job Crawford, hit .240!!

Crawford: It doesn’t matter what 2011’s stats where. Most people also thought that Ross-Torres-Burrell-Huff-Tejada and Rowand would NOT all go in the latrine in one fell swoop either (well maybe Rowand and Tejada) but you get my drift. You either succeed north or south of 30% as a hitter.

It’s what kind of hits or balls in play one does; Productive OUTS, ground balls to the right side with no outs and a man on second. I know you know all this CC, but when Shellfish, Lefty and Donna and I come to your town to take you out for a ride on the river, you’d better hide all your fangraphs, sabr bill james, baseball-reference dot com’s in your wall safe because I’m throwin’ ’em all out.

-I’m so smiling.

foothills ryan

Man, that would be great if Crawford hit .250. But what if he hits .180 and the Giants are stuck without a fallback plan. I’m not convinced hitting in the AFL will translate. He does not have all that many minor league ABs. Not many at all above single A.

So I understand talking with Alex Gonzalez.

Maybe it would behoove the Giants to talk with Rafael Furcal. Definitely entertain Jimmy Rollins.

Clutch, do you still have that Jimmy Rollins feeling. Or is it a Crawford feeling today?

What are your thoughts on Furcal? Might be the best SS risk to take.

Bapah

new column 1 min ago

Anti-Lasorda

I have that Rollins feeling.

I still think they’ll end up with Cedeno….

JD4SF

ClutchUp says:
December 1st, 2011 at 6:41 pm
JF4SF:
re Crawford
===========
I agree he needs to focus on being MLB SS. That is the short term. Yes, I’m thinking long term when I suggest going forward it would be advantageous for Crawford to be more versatile regarding positions.

His bat isn’t likely to be a huge sales pitch, so his D will be his key. X years from now being able to play other positions will make him more marketable and keep him playing longer. Career path planning. 😉

TitoMac

ok

Frank Rizzo

“Baer said Bochy and Sabean are the best at their crafts. Asked to define that, he said: ‘We all know we’re in a business of cycles and you got to look at how long-term performance plays out.'”

Bochy’s long-term performance as a manager is sub-.500. Just sayin’.

ROB

Belt is trade bait, Pill platoon with Posey (who won’t be able to catch all the games but we need his bat) Sanchez can do fine at the dish, hits from both sides, will be very good if given the chance,, like his attitude also,,, Huff can play outfield or leave,, either way its all we got,, Torres can fill in if someone needs a break in outfield, we need another ss 2b guy to spell anyone in those positions, and 3b backup would be nice,, other than that ,, the FA’s can all leave,, lets look for diamond in the ruff for 2013 when the dead money is gone…

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