[Wehr][All] The effectiveness of the Tiger I

Comments

@MCMartel said:
It's not a heavy historically, and it's not a heavy tank in the sense of literally any other heavy in the game,..

Historically From wiki
"The Tank, Infantry, Mk IV (A22) Churchill was a British heavy infantry tank used in the Second World War, best known for its heavy armour, large longitudinal chassis with all-around tracks with multiple bogies, its ability to climb steep slopes, and its use as the basis of many specialist vehicles. It was one of the heaviest Allied tanks of the war."

Churchill Mk. VII Infantry Tank
Description:
The lumbering Churchill Mk. VII Infantry Tank, often called the 'Heavy Churchill', has very thick frontal armor. The 75mm main gun offers a good balance against a variety of soft and armored targets.

You are simply confusing heavy tanks with what Relic classifies as "Super heavy Vehicles" and limits to 1.

@MCMartel said:
It's not a heavy historically, and it's not a heavy tank in the sense of literally any other heavy in the game, in that it has armor that reliably resists mediums and a larger than average gun. And pablo, have you not played since they nerfed it a month after it came out?

Churchill is a heavy infantry support tank.
If the tank is heavy or not is determined individually by each army and depends on the use of the tank.
Churchill meets all the criteria of a heavy infantry tank.
Big gun does not define heavy tank, its battlefield application and doctrine definition(mainly as a breakthrough/spearhead tank that won't die instantly when it gets in opponents range is a heavy tank)

It can only if ones manage to squeeze all 6 entities in a 1.45 circle by comparison an IS-2 will one shot 4 men squad in 1.75 circle. That is (X)120% more and given the 2 less entities and the bad spacing far more probable.

@Beardedragon said:
well. cant all tanks effectively one shot 6 man squads if one is unlucky?

Dont remember the last time I squadwiped with ost panzer 4 ...that thing either hits ground 4 meters in front of targeted infantry, or misses and the shell flies through the squad, hitting the building, or anything far behind them.

@MisterBastard " you should try the kv-2 if you think the p4 is bad at AI. ive had one parked infront of a rak and despite the rak shooting the ground every other shot i had to retreat the lv-2 because hitting a stationary, clumped 4 man squad is hard....

@thedarkarmadillo said:@MisterBastard " you should try the kv-2 if you think the p4 is bad at AI. ive had one parked infront of a rak and despite the rak shooting the ground every other shot i had to retreat the lv-2 because hitting a stationary, clumped 4 man squad is hard....

That's utter nonsense. The p-4 is excellent at murdering infantry, I've seen it wipe entire penal squads in about 5-10 seconds, I don't know what game you're playing. It's just slightly overpriced. Probably about 110-115 fuel worth.

@MCMartel Not unless the RNG god was feeling benevolent on those few days, generally P-4's aren't excellent at _murdering _infantry. They suffer poor accuracy, and the mg's don't even come close to what the T-34/85 can do in those 5-10 seconds. It's really not in a great place, not for pen, cost, accuracy or rotation.

@MCMartel said:
That's utter nonsense. The p-4 is excellent at murdering infantry, I've seen it wipe entire penal squads in about 5-10 seconds, I don't know what game you're playing. It's just slightly overpriced. Probably about 110-115 fuel worth.

5-10 seconds, not even a Stuart or T70 could do that to a unit of penals...maybe possible if there are 3-4 models left with barely any HP...or a very bad case of models literally all clumped inside each other.

Please and go watch Imperial Danes YT channel with Wehr playing , one really common comment under them is "pz 4 can hit a broad side of a barn" or some version of it...for a good reason.

Mostly what's irritating about it is how little damage it does. Armor is also a bit on the light side with TD buffs, but even cheaper prediums like the Comet or Easy Eight can stand up to it pretty well.

Problem is that under the current meta everybody just spams prediums or TDs nowadays and the Tiger can neither escape them, or deal significant damage to them that would make the Tiger's arrival the event it used to be in CoH1. It can be even semi ignored as it doesn't have that much of an impact on the battlefield, since it deals just the same damage per shot as any medium. Same goes to the IS-2 that's also more or less just an overgrown damage sponge. With a cost and upkeep that also limits your ability to add further damage-dealing tanks to the formula, so almost always you are better off with two smaller tanks, the heavies do not make much of a sense.

I think, and suggested it before that increasing the damage per shot of the Tiger (and similiars like the IS-2 and Pershing) to 200 would go a long way into making these units more useful, feared and a valid choice. Their damage per shot and squad crippling ability would be greater (especially with the new wider formations more or less solving squad wipe issues). They could also dispatch mediums in 4 shots rather than the 5 required by most other AT fire options like tanks and ATGs. And since you can only get just 1 now, I can hardly see any issue with such a change.

@Kurfürst said:
Mostly what's irritating about it is how little damage it does. Armor is also a bit on the light side with TD buffs, but even cheaper prediums like the Comet or Easy Eight can stand up to it pretty well.

Problem is that under the current meta everybody just spams prediums or TDs nowadays and the Tiger can neither escape them, or deal significant damage to them that would make the Tiger's arrival the event it used to be in CoH1. It can be even semi ignored as it doesn't have that much of an impact on the battlefield, since it deals just the same damage per shot as any medium. Same goes to the IS-2 that's also more or less just an overgrown damage sponge. With a cost and upkeep that also limits your ability to add further damage-dealing tanks to the formula, so almost always you are better off with two smaller tanks, the heavies do not make much of a sense.

I think, and suggested it before that increasing the damage per shot of the Tiger (and similiars like the IS-2 and Pershing) to 200 would go a long way into making these units more useful, feared and a valid choice. Their damage per shot and squad crippling ability would be greater (especially with the new wider formations more or less solving squad wipe issues). They could also dispatch mediums in 4 shots rather than the 5 required by most other AT fire options like tanks and ATGs. And since you can only get just 1 now, I can hardly see any issue with such a change.

Agreed. Please keep the ideas alive for when the balance mod allows for further balance changes that make sense.

@Kurfürst said:
Mostly what's irritating about it is how little damage it does. Armor is also a bit on the light side with TD buffs, but even cheaper prediums like the Comet or Easy Eight can stand up to it pretty well.

As much damage as any other tank in game that isn't super-heavy.

Tank destroyers were specifically buffed to better deal with it and other heavily armored units, so you complain that you can't counter your natural hardcounter.

Neither comet nor EE stand any kind of a chance against tiger and when there are 2 of them, its much greater investment in the first place.

Problem is that under the current meta everybody just spams prediums or TDs nowadays and the Tiger can neither escape them, or deal significant damage to them that would make the Tiger's arrival the event it used to be in CoH1. It can be even semi ignored as it doesn't have that much of an impact on the battlefield, since it deals just the same damage per shot as any medium. Same goes to the IS-2 that's also more or less just an overgrown damage sponge. With a cost and upkeep that also limits your ability to add further damage-dealing tanks to the formula, so almost always you are better off with two smaller tanks, the heavies do not make much of a sense.

Tiger was never intended to be one unit army and it will never again be. Goal is to support your army with heavy armor, not support heavy armor with your army, if you don't have proper support, nothing will help you. CoH1 reference is pointless, because armor in coh2 doesn't work as it did in coh1.

Again, these are supposed to be additions to your current army, not an army in itself.

I think, and suggested it before that increasing the damage per shot of the Tiger (and similiars like the IS-2 and Pershing) to 200 would go a long way into making these units more useful, feared and a valid choice. Their damage per shot and squad crippling ability would be greater (especially with the new wider formations more or less solving squad wipe issues). They could also dispatch mediums in 4 shots rather than the 5 required by most other AT fire options like tanks and ATGs. And since you can only get just 1 now, I can hardly see any issue with such a change.

Also imbalanced choice.
All units that aren't TD and don't have 7+sec reload time have 160 dmg, because that is balanced in regard to other units.
Tiger got 160dmg since day 1 and that won't change, it got great RoF, excellent penetration, range and AoE, it can already 1-2 shot 6 man squads. You're also wrong against mediums as all non doctrinal one with exception of T4 level mediums die to 4 shots and T4 meds have premium cost, still can't easily pen tiger and are penned 100% of the time. And last but not least, ATGs are to counter tiger, not the other way around.
Sorry, but its not getting buffed.

@Kurfürst said:
Mostly what's irritating about it is how little damage it does. Armor is also a bit on the light side with TD buffs, but even cheaper prediums like the Comet or Easy Eight can stand up to it pretty well.

As much damage as any other tank in game that isn't super-heavy.

Tank destroyers were specifically buffed to better deal with it and other heavily armored units, so you complain that you can't counter your natural hardcounter.

Its obvious why it oppose it. Its very convinient to rely on Rifle/Tommy spam backed up by cheap TDs. Which TDs were provided, and buffed, repeatadly, for the sole reason to provide you tools against factions which strenght is having effective late game heavy armor.

And its so much more convinent when that threat isn't that effective at all, for its price tag. God forbid there would be a single unit in heavy tank designed factions that would actually merit attention.

Neither comet nor EE stand any kind of a chance against tiger and when there are 2 of them, its much greater investment in the first place.

Because REASONS I guess, never mind the Comet has longer range, almost the same armor as it is, faster, can kite/flank the Tiger with ease and two of them are far, far better than a single Tiger.

I'd have a Comet over a Tiger any day of the week.

Tiger was never intended to be one unit army and it will never again be.

Again, not your choice I am afraid.

It was intended to supplement strong core units and boost their strenght.

Goal is to support your army with heavy armor, not support heavy armor with your army, if you don't have proper support, nothing will help you. CoH1 reference is pointless, because armor in coh2 doesn't work as it did in coh1.

It worked well in Coh1 anyways, and unless its buffed, there is not much point in having a Tiger, because it sucks.

As for being a 'one tank army', yeah right, now we are bordering on the ridiculus. The KT is far, far better in both armor, and damage - it has 240 damage and better accuracy and AoE.

Can it work as a one tank army? No, it still needs support, or its DEAD. Neither would the far, far weaker Tiger but at least it would worth calling in one.

You have buffed TDs, infantry AT wieldable by ANY infantry une buffed to deal with it,

Again, these are supposed to be additions to your current army, not an army in itself.

Having +40 damage per shot is a long, long way from being an army by itself.

Also imbalanced choice.
All units that aren't TD and don't have 7+sec reload time have 160 dmg, because that is balanced in regard to other units.

We are still talking about single, hugely expensive call-ins, aka all eggs in one basket. It doesn't have to 'balanced' to other units DPS, because you won't have multiple of them, you will get one, at a late stage, at a huge costs.

Trouble is that it does not worth it, because you will have far, far more DPS from cheaper units. Its uneconomical and unattractive for most players as it is. Its mostly redundant.

Either the cost goes down (which is for a dull gameplay without variety) or the DPS goes up.

Tiger got 160dmg since day 1 and that won't change, it got great RoF, excellent penetration, range and AoE, it can already 1-2 shot 6 man squads. You're also wrong against mediums as all non doctrinal one with exception of T4 level mediums die to 4 shots and T4 meds have premium cost, still can't easily pen tiger and are penned 100% of the time. And last but not least, ATGs are to counter tiger, not the other way around.
Sorry, but its not getting buffed.

We had heavy tank meta, we're not going back to it.

It also had like 350+ armor and side armor that was almost impervious to medium fire, which made the rationale for it not having huge DPS while being almost invulnerable itself.

Now both of those traits are gone, its counters have been buffed sky high and the thing is highly vulnerable to proper counters. Even to prediums.

We had a (mostly Soviet btw) heavy tank meta that built on not teching and saving fuel on that, calling in MULTIPLE heavy tanks / premiums, which also had much lower CP timings.

Now you can call in just ONE, and at a much later stage, provided you do enormous amounts damage to tick the CPs on.
I do wonder how you will gain advantage when this 'meta' would be all about stalling and relying on purely (sub-par) infantry and perhaps AT guns and not having tanks for at least 10-15 minutes while the opposing player would have.

If you fear that you can't deal with that supposed SINGLE heavy tank call in 'meta' with TDs that have been buffed sky high and pen it with a 75% chance then its purely a L2P issue.

@Kurfürst said:
Mostly what's irritating about it is how little damage it does. Armor is also a bit on the light side with TD buffs, but even cheaper prediums like the Comet or Easy Eight can stand up to it pretty well.

As much damage as any other tank in game that isn't super-heavy.

Tank destroyers were specifically buffed to better deal with it and other heavily armored units, so you complain that you can't counter your natural hardcounter.

>

Its obvious why it oppose it. Its very convinient to rely on Rifle/Tommy spam backed up by cheap TDs. Which TDs were provided, and buffed, repeatadly, for the sole reason to provide you tools against factions which strenght is having effective late game heavy armor.

Cheap TDs compared to what? Panther? JagdTiger?
All allied TDs are 130+ fuel. Do you want to remind me how much StuG costs?
Also, in case you were living under a rock for last 14 months, axis late game supremacy and allies early game advantage design failed and game is being rebalanced with all factions having equal strength to compete at all stages of the game.
Rifles are getting weaker now, if you lose to tommy spam, you seriously need to re-evaluate on how to use MGs and lights and the cheap TDs you speak about belong to ostheer, which last time I've checked, wasn't an allied faction.

And its so much more convinent when that threat isn't that effective at all, for its price tag. God forbid there would be a single unit in heavy tank designed factions that would actually merit attention.

Neither comet nor EE stand any kind of a chance against tiger and when there are 2 of them, its much greater investment in the first place.

Because REASONS I guess, never mind the Comet has longer range, almost the same armor as it is, faster, can kite/flank the Tiger with ease and two of them are far, far better than a single Tiger.

I'd have a Comet over a Tiger any day of the week.

So play allies and have a Comet. Or you're one of these people who are ideologically motivated by faction pick?
Plus, have fun kiting anything with 5 range advantage, which gets down to 0 at tiger vet2-that's not possible.
And boy oh boy, do I wonder, why 280-370 fuel worth of units would beat 230 fuel, must be REASONS as you've said and absolutely nothing to do with common sense and balance.

Tiger was never intended to be one unit army and it will never again be.

Again, not your choice I am afraid.

No, its devs choice. And they have chosen to make it addition to army, not the bulk of it, which was supported by the community and welcomed with open arms. Again, were you under a rock for last 14 months?

It was intended to supplement strong core units and boost their strenght.

Keyword=SUPPLEMENT.
Not replace.
It supplements the core greatly, but you need to have a core by that time, if you're throwing squads away all the game, tiger isn't there to save you, it'll stall you, but not save you. If you have strong army and are competing equally, Tiger will press the weight on your side, sealing the deal.

Goal is to support your army with heavy armor, not support heavy armor with your army, if you don't have proper support, nothing will help you. CoH1 reference is pointless, because armor in coh2 doesn't work as it did in coh1.

It worked well in Coh1 anyways, and unless its buffed, there is not much point in having a Tiger, because it sucks.

Its not CoH1, if you miss CoH1 tiger so much, play CoH1, this is CoH2, heavies do NOT have the same role or performance as they did in CoH1.

As for being a 'one tank army', yeah right, now we are bordering on the ridiculus. The KT is far, far better in both armor, and damage - it has 240 damage and better accuracy and AoE.

Can it work as a one tank army? No, it still needs support, or its DEAD. Neither would the far, far weaker Tiger but at least it would worth calling in one.

KT also requires all tech structures, costs much more and is incredibly slow, so allied TDs can kill it with ease if you don't have strong support for it.

Its also behind completely different army then Tiger.
Do you think it would be a nice idea to add IS-2 like unit to USF?
No?

And for the same reasons Tiger won't be buffed.

You have buffed TDs, infantry AT wieldable by ANY infantry une buffed to deal with it,

And you have buffed your own and nerfed allied infantry to deal with all that allied AT to clear the way for your heavy.

Again, these are supposed to be additions to your current army, not an army in itself.

Having +40 damage per shot is a long, long way from being an army by itself.

Ever had vet3 Puma?
If not, I highly advise you to try it if you think 40 dmg does not have a huge impact.

You want 25% more damage?
Then have AoE profile reduced by 25% and reload increased by 25%.
There needs to be balance. Why do you think you should kill certain tanks faster then now? You've yet to provide a singular viable argument on that.

Also imbalanced choice.
All units that aren't TD and don't have 7+sec reload time have 160 dmg, because that is balanced in regard to other units.

We are still talking about single, hugely expensive call-ins, aka all eggs in one basket. It doesn't have to 'balanced' to other units DPS, because you won't have multiple of them, you will get one, at a late stage, at a huge costs.

On the contrary-everything in game needs to be balanced. If you are not interested in balance, play some silly mods or stomp easy AI.
If cost effectiveness of one unit goes over certain point, it becomes OP.
Suddenly allowing a unit to kill its own tier units in 1-2 shots less creates a HUGE imbalance.
Every value has an effect on balance which needs to be evaluated and balanced.

Trouble is that it does not worth it, because you will have far, far more DPS from cheaper units. Its uneconomical and unattractive for most players as it is. Its mostly redundant.

Either the cost goes down (which is for a dull gameplay without variety) or the DPS goes up.

Or you don't use it if you think its not worth FOR YOU.
Because there is crapload of players who succesfully use the unit with no problems at all.

My advise?
Stop playing 4v4 noob stomps.

Tiger got 160dmg since day 1 and that won't change, it got great RoF, excellent penetration, range and AoE, it can already 1-2 shot 6 man squads. You're also wrong against mediums as all non doctrinal one with exception of T4 level mediums die to 4 shots and T4 meds have premium cost, still can't easily pen tiger and are penned 100% of the time. And last but not least, ATGs are to counter tiger, not the other way around.
Sorry, but its not getting buffed.

We had heavy tank meta, we're not going back to it.

It also had like 350+ armor and side armor that was almost impervious to medium fire, which made the rationale for it not having huge DPS while being almost invulnerable itself.

Incorrect. It always had 300 armor.
You're confusing it with IS-2.

Now both of those traits are gone, its counters have been buffed sky high and the thing is highly vulnerable to proper counters. Even to prediums.

The imaginary trait is gone.
Now lets see what it got in return?
-increased range over all heavies
-increased penetration
-increased rate of fire compared to other heavies
-low scatter

Its a powerhouse when it comes to dealing damage, not a damage sponge, so protect it with TDs or ATGs.

We had a (mostly Soviet btw) heavy tank meta that built on not teching and saving fuel on that, calling in MULTIPLE heavy tanks / premiums, which also had much lower CP timings.

And now we don't, because it was imbalanced.

Now you can call in just ONE, and at a much later stage, provided you do enormous amounts damage to tick the CPs on.

Yes, because its now balanced.

I do wonder how you will gain advantage when this 'meta' would be all about stalling and relying on purely (sub-par) infantry and perhaps AT guns and not having tanks for at least 10-15 minutes while the opposing player would have.
If you fear that you can't deal with that supposed SINGLE heavy tank call in 'meta' with TDs that have been buffed sky high and pen it with a 75% chance then its purely a L2P issue.

Tiger Ace proves you wrong.
And if you think that SINGLE heavy tank needs buffs, without providing actual examples and reasons of WHY based on gameplay evidence supported by even a singular top player, then YOU have some serious L2P issue.

I think the biggest problem I have with the Tiger is it's survivability. The fact that prediums can pen its frontal armor around 40% of the time and prediums have 800 HP vs Tiger's 1040 HP means that two prediums is more than enough to threaten the Tiger and of course your infantry. The allied player doesn't need extra investment into countering your Tiger such as real TD. Prediums + at inf + snares is all that is required.

@1ncendiary_Rounds said:
I think the biggest problem I have with the Tiger is it's survivability. The fact that prediums can pen its frontal armor around 40% of the time and prediums have 800 HP vs Tiger's 1040 HP means that two prediums is more than enough to threaten the Tiger and of course your infantry. The allied player doesn't need extra investment into countering your Tiger such as real TD. Prediums + at inf + snares is all that is required.

Tank destroyers were specifically buffed to better deal with it and other heavily armored units, so you complain that you can't counter your natural hardcounter.

@Katitof Except those buffs are what has made such a mess of late game armour play currently, its understandable that proper counters for the KT had to be available, but using one of the heaviest tanks in the game as a benchmark from which to measure the increase in penetration and damage has completely skewed the power balance.

The ability for fireflys and jacksons to alpha strike axis mediums is mad, a firefly with tulips can wipe a p4 with little more than the burst and a finishing shot. Then even at max range have enough pen to consistently damage score damage on anything less than a panther.

It would be ideal if they did a consistent 160 damage to anything less than a superheavy, as the 200-280 damage between them; per shot, just makes most mid-game armor obselete the minute they hit the field.

Problem is that under the current meta everybody just spams prediums or TDs nowadays and the Tiger can neither escape them, or deal significant damage to them that would make the Tiger's arrival the event it used to be in CoH1. It can be even semi ignored as it doesn't have that much of an impact on the battlefield, since it deals just the same damage per shot as any medium. Same goes to the IS-2 that's also more or less just an overgrown damage sponge. With a cost and upkeep that also limits your ability to add further damage-dealing tanks to the formula, so almost always you are better off with two smaller tanks, the heavies do not make much of a sense.

The IS-2 is excellent at its role as a breakthrough tank, yes it lacks the consistent dps of the other heavies, but it has the same armour as the KT without having to worry about anything but the super heavies being able to reliably pen it, due to the lack of any dedicated td's except a high vet JP. I've used it many times to great success as a line breaker, it can also hit back hard when vetted and provide the unit the SOV need to draw fire well their over units push past. Honestly, don't underestimate it.

As for the tiger, it does not come close to the IS-2 in terms of endurance, but it does have a much higher damage potential. However OST has enough glass cannon units, and no-one can field a panther and Tiger together without already dominating the game, so there is lttle that can draw the enemies focus from your heavy and survive. Its too slow and doesn't hit hard enough without vet, allowing players to hammer it with td's and dive, easily getting the kill unless it has smoke dispensers.

@Kurfürst I agree that the idea of buffing the base damage of the IS-2, Tiger and Pershing to two hundred is a great idea. It would help distinguish them from mediums and allow the current cost to be more justifiable, as currently a pair of premium mediums is a much better investment than a heavy.

If we are looking at the Tiger alone though, I would like to see it fall into the same role as the Pershing, being heavy fire support. Give it more speed, and increase its range so it can fight effectively from the back of your lines without being exposed to so much overwhelming retalitation.

When compared to the comet the tiger is absolutely lacking although the comet is op so i guess thats not a great baseline....

What about a vet 1 change? Something actually unique: pop the ability and tiger machine guns supress slightly and front armour is temporarily buffed but speed is reduced for duration. Everyone gets the terrifying tiger they want, it gets buffed against tds but counterplay in reduced speed leaves it vulnerable to a flank. Bada bing bada boom?