Obama's Fallacious Moral Reasoning on Health Care Reform

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Well-Known Member

President Obama doesn't seem to be aware of any conditions or circumstances that may alter our "moral imperative" to pass his bill and to pass it right now.

We should be aware of many.

1) President Obama's argument that our choice is between a) his bill right now and b) no reform for another forty years is fallacious.

2) His refusal to answer basic questions about how we are going to pay for his bill (refusing to take off the table the massive surtax option while also refusing to say he plans on using it if he can) is not fair.

3) Independent budgetary analysts disagree with the President about what this reform bill will do to minimize overall government health expenditures (the president says we "can't afford" not to pass his bill) and about the impact of the 1 trillion dollar cost on other parts of our economy.

4) Under the proposed legislation individuals will be required to have health care coverage that meets minimum benefits standards. These standards will be established by the Obama administration. There is very good reason to believe these minimum benefits that health insurance companies must provide will include abortion on demand. Obama has said reproductive care is essential care, basic care" and Secretary of State Hillary Clinton has added, reproductive health includes access to abortion. Congressman Joe Pitts (PA) recently warned in a written statement that any individual who does not have a plan that meets the minimum benefit standards will be forced to pay a 2.5 percent tax penalty. And any employer who does not provide coverage that meets these standards will pay up to an 8 percent tax penalty,"

5) This week the president himself admitted he cannot guarantee tax money will not be used for abortions under his plan. Why can't he guarantee that? Because he wants it in his plan and will mandate it if he can.

6) Euthanasia is not explicitly excluded from the category of basic health care either. If it is not excluded, eventually it will be demanded, and we will pay for it.
For President Obama to continue to use moral arguments to demand immediate passage of his bill, without also putting to rest the conditions and circumstances I outline above, is ethically reprehensible and politically unacceptable.

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New Member

President Obama doesn't seem to be aware of any conditions or circumstances that may alter our "moral imperative" to pass his bill and to pass it right now.

We should be aware of many.

1) President Obama's argument that our choice is between a) his bill right now and b) no reform for another forty years is fallacious.

2) His refusal to answer basic questions about how we are going to pay for his bill (refusing to take off the table the massive surtax option while also refusing to say he plans on using it if he can) is not fair.

3) Independent budgetary analysts disagree with the President about what this reform bill will do to minimize overall government health expenditures (the president says we "can't afford" not to pass his bill) and about the impact of the 1 trillion dollar cost on other parts of our economy.

4) Under the proposed legislation individuals will be required to have health care coverage that meets minimum benefits standards. These standards will be established by the Obama administration. There is very good reason to believe these minimum benefits that health insurance companies must provide will include abortion on demand. Obama has said reproductive care is essential care, basic care" and Secretary of State Hillary Clinton has added, reproductive health includes access to abortion. Congressman Joe Pitts (PA) recently warned in a written statement that any individual who does not have a plan that meets the minimum benefit standards will be forced to pay a 2.5 percent tax penalty. And any employer who does not provide coverage that meets these standards will pay up to an 8 percent tax penalty,"

5) This week the president himself admitted he cannot guarantee tax money will not be used for abortions under his plan. Why can't he guarantee that? Because he wants it in his plan and will mandate it if he can.

6) Euthanasia is not explicitly excluded from the category of basic health care either. If it is not excluded, eventually it will be demanded, and we will pay for it.
For President Obama to continue to use moral arguments to demand immediate passage of his bill, without also putting to rest the conditions and circumstances I outline above, is ethically reprehensible and politically unacceptable.

2) His refusal to answer basic questions about how we are going to pay for his bill (refusing to take off the table the massive surtax option while also refusing to say he plans on using it if he can) is not fair.

Click to expand...

The surtax proposal came from congress. Obama wants to even out the deductions of the middle class and the rich. If my dollar is worth 15% deduction, I don't see why their dollar should be worth 28% deduction. I believe what Obama is proposing is fair.

3) Independent budgetary analysts disagree with the President about what this reform bill will do to minimize overall government health expenditures (the president says we "can't afford" not to pass his bill) and about the impact of the 1 trillion dollar cost on other parts of our economy.

Click to expand...

They are not done crafting the bill. They went back into negotiations after the CBO said there was another $200 billion to be cut to make it deficit neutral. So as for your $1 Trillion number, they are within $200 Billion of being deficit neutral so the $1 Trillion you speak of is majority paid for (according to the CBO who you quoted).

4) Under the proposed legislation individuals will be required to have health care coverage that meets minimum benefits standards.

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This is not true, this is why he keeps saying the plan will only cover 97% of the nation. We all know there are people who will opt not to get coverage and there is no individual mandate in the legislation. More GOP rhetoric.

5) This week the president himself admitted he cannot guarantee tax money will not be used for abortions under his plan. Why can't he guarantee that? Because he wants it in his plan and will mandate it if he can.

Click to expand...

Abortions are legal. You can have it both ways. First the GOP says it is taboo to ration health care or for the government to come between the doctor and patient then the GOP demands it doesn't cover a legal procedure like abortion.

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New Member

Abortion may be considered a 'legal procedure' by todays law..... but seldom is it considered to be a 'medically necessary procedure'. As it is used by probably as high or higher than 99% of recipients.... it is NOT a medically necessary procedure.

Hey...... I don't mind my tax dollars going for plastic surgery to repair disfigurement to disease or accident but to be paying for breast augmentation or nose jobs merely because people are dissatisfied with the one God gave them..... is not 'medically necessary'. Why not exclude all procedures which are not 'medically necessary' especially as we're concerned about cost containment and rationing is an option. Or do we just let little ole ladies die because they can't get a hip replacement (because they're too old to benefit more than a few years longer) while planned parenthood enlarges its minions from government dollars paying for unwanted pregnacy terminations?

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New Member

Obama is simply a liar, plain and simply. But God has him in power to help usher in the last days. So we need to pray for him.

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I have always supported praying for our political leaders but I don't claim to have a special revelation from God about Obama's role in bringing in the last days. Why do you think you have such information?

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New Member

Federal FORCED Health Care Laws from which the lawmakers EXEMPT
themselves, is SHAMEFUL. Any lawmaker making a law, Forcing a form
of Health Care upon someone, which they themselves will not be Forced
to endure, is reprehensible. It is so morally wrong that such a person who
would vote YES to such a proposed law should immediately Go To JAIL
without passing GO or collecting another $200. Such conduct is disgusting
for anyone who wants to be called honorable.

The lawmakers are frequently found making laws regarding FORCED
Federal Social Security related laws from which they EXEMPT
THEMSELVES. That is DISGUSTING, and morally untenable.

Lawmakers voting in favor of laws they did NOT even read is dereliction of
duty, and such should be removed from office for such irresponsibility.

Does the Health Care Bill FORCE you to have health insurance? YES.
Though you may find some statements in the bill to mislead someone to
think otherwise, it is true that you will be FORCED to buy Federally approved
health insurance. When you file a tax return and fail to attach proof of your
qualifying health plan, the IRS, in coordination with the expanded federal
office on electronic medical records and a new state bureaucracy called a
Gateway, will find you, notify you of your default, and FINE YOU BIGTIME
(sec. 59). That is a penalty of about $5000. According to the House Bill, when
you file your taxes, if you can NOT PROVE to the IRS that you are in a
QUALIFIED plan, you will be FINED thousands of dollars. The fine is as
much as the average cost of a health plan for your family size, and then
automatically you get enrolled in a randomly selected plan. You can read
it for yourself in the House Bill, p. 167-168. You can read 1,017 pages of
the House Bill here if you think this is some sort of a joke or distortion of
the facts:

Obama said on July 17, that "if you like your health plan, you can keep it."
That is just another BIG LIE of the ILLEGAL president. The bills now before
Congress would FORCE you to switch to a managed-care plan with limits
on your access to specialists and tests. OF COURSE THE LAWMAKERS
AND HIGH GOVERNMENT OFFICIALS EXEMPT THEMSELVES.

One thing that everyone should make clear to their Representative and
Senator is that - Whatever health insurance bill is passed in Congress
MUST apply to members of Congress and other federal employees too.
NO EXCEPTIONS. Otherwise KEEPA YOU HANDS OFF OF HEALTH
CARE. Some of you, like me, could say I am with Jesus Christ MUTUAL
LIFE, where the premium has already been paid, and the benefits are
out of this world. I will NOT switch no matter what the Obama gog says.

Obama's fix for Social Security related financial problems quite LITERALLY
and simply could be stated - KILL those who have been forced to contribute
to the Social Security schemes before they can get much chance to take
anything out. Allow me to explain that rather outrageous, but sad truth.

We should be thankful that most doctors take the Hippocratic Oath quite
seriously, and believe it to be their moral DUTY to do everything for the
patient regardless of the cost or effects on others. Doctors who do take
their Hippocratic Oath seriously would be OUTRAGED IF THEY were to
read the 1600 pages of the Proposed Health Care laws. It will now be
Federal EUGENICS PROGRAMMED computers telling doctors what
kind of treatment and care that they can or can NOT give to their patients.
The Federal computer will say do NOT give much care to a grandmother
with Parkinson's, counsel her on the choices of the ways to die. That is
also what the Federal computer will say for the child with cerebral palsy.
Obama care is Hitler's Heath Care on STEROIDS.

The assault against seniors began with something that was slipped into
the so-called stimulus package. That package included funding for so-called
comparative effectiveness research, which means limiting care based on the
patient's age. QALY's means Quality Adjusted Life Years. The QALY is the
formula where the COST of Treatment is DIVIDED by the age of the patient.
In England today, QALY's are used, and is the basis for which TREATMENT
IS DENIED TLDER PEOPLE. You should see the Obama plan to kill the
contributors to SS before they make many withdrawals. Older patients are
takers rather than givers to the federal slave tax monster, and if the QALY
does not get them this will.

The House Bill denies access to treatment by specialists as you can read,
if you like in pages 660-688, of the 1,017 page House Bill. Ask any doctor.
Heart-disease patients treated by general practitioners instead of specialists,
are often misdiagnosed and treated incorrectly. The statistics prove such
patients are readmitted to the hospital more frequently, and die sooner.

The House bill being pushed by the Obama Eugenicists will deny access
to cures which the Federal Eugenics programmed computers say are too
expensive. The Obama Eugenics Health will deny access to specialists.
BUT - TA DAHHHHH - Obama's Eugenic Health plan REQUIRES that
seniors are counseled on end-of-life options, including refusing nutrition
where state law allows it. Yes. You can read about it on pages 425-446 of
the House Bill. It would be good for some newsman to ask Obama what he
thinks of the Oregon program of offering physician-assisted suicide instead
of treatment.

The Obama plan, just like the Hitler plan, is EUGENICS. Obama and Hitler
are very likeminded in their belief that living longer burdens society. Medical
data verifies this is NOT true. A patient who dies at 67 spends three times as
much on health care at the end of life as a patient who lives to 90. If Obama
and his antichrist fellow EUGENICS travelers think the best thing we can do
is reduce the population of the world, why don't they show us the way of
leadership by example, and GO FIRST.

.

Pray for the Peace of Jerusalem. Pray Psalm 83 every day. Only be
very strong and of good courage. Stay IN the Word.

ExpandCollapse

Active Member

Though it is called his bill, most on the hill criticize him for not giving enough input. He gave the job to congress to craft legislation.

The surtax proposal came from congress. Obama wants to even out the deductions of the middle class and the rich. If my dollar is worth 15% deduction, I don't see why their dollar should be worth 28% deduction. I believe what Obama is proposing is fair.

They are not done crafting the bill. They went back into negotiations after the CBO said there was another $200 billion to be cut to make it deficit neutral. So as for your $1 Trillion number, they are within $200 Billion of being deficit neutral so the $1 Trillion you speak of is majority paid for (according to the CBO who you quoted).

This is not true, this is why he keeps saying the plan will only cover 97% of the nation. We all know there are people who will opt not to get coverage and there is no individual mandate in the legislation. More GOP rhetoric.

Abortions are legal. You can have it both ways. First the GOP says it is taboo to ration health care or for the government to come between the doctor and patient then the GOP demands it doesn't cover a legal procedure like abortion.

Click to expand...

Several sources have been quoted refuting much of your arguments. Your response? "Obama said, 'trust me,' so I do."

Look, it's been plainly shown that this bill will destroy private healthcare. It won't outlaw it...but it will make it untenable. But hey, you trust Obama, what can I say?

And of course, nationalized healthcare really stinks if you are an unwanted unborn baby...but what concern is that of yours? It's legal, so who cares if it happens? Never let the murder of children go to waste, when it can also give you a chance to slam Republicans.

ExpandCollapse

New Member

Federal FORCED Health Care Laws from which the lawmakers EXEMPT
themselves, is SHAMEFUL. Any lawmaker making a law, Forcing a form
of Health Care upon someone, which they themselves will not be Forced
to endure, is reprehensible. It is so morally wrong that such a person who
would vote YES to such a proposed law should immediately Go To JAIL
without passing GO or collecting another $200. Such conduct is disgusting
for anyone who wants to be called honorable.

The lawmakers are frequently found making laws regarding FORCED
Federal Social Security related laws from which they EXEMPT
THEMSELVES. That is DISGUSTING, and morally untenable.

Lawmakers voting in favor of laws they did NOT even read is dereliction of
duty, and such should be removed from office for such irresponsibility.

Does the Health Care Bill FORCE you to have health insurance? YES.
Though you may find some statements in the bill to mislead someone to
think otherwise, it is true that you will be FORCED to buy Federally approved
health insurance. When you file a tax return and fail to attach proof of your
qualifying health plan, the IRS, in coordination with the expanded federal
office on electronic medical records and a new state bureaucracy called a
Gateway, will find you, notify you of your default, and FINE YOU BIGTIME
(sec. 59). That is a penalty of about $5000. According to the House Bill, when
you file your taxes, if you can NOT PROVE to the IRS that you are in a
QUALIFIED plan, you will be FINED thousands of dollars. The fine is as
much as the average cost of a health plan for your family size, and then
automatically you get enrolled in a randomly selected plan. You can read
it for yourself in the House Bill, p. 167-168. You can read 1,017 pages of
the House Bill here if you think this is some sort of a joke or distortion of
the facts:

Obama said on July 17, that "if you like your health plan, you can keep it."
That is just another BIG LIE of the ILLEGAL president. The bills now before
Congress would FORCE you to switch to a managed-care plan with limits
on your access to specialists and tests. OF COURSE THE LAWMAKERS
AND HIGH GOVERNMENT OFFICIALS EXEMPT THEMSELVES.

One thing that everyone should make clear to their Representative and
Senator is that - Whatever health insurance bill is passed in Congress
MUST apply to members of Congress and other federal employees too.
NO EXCEPTIONS. Otherwise KEEPA YOU HANDS OFF OF HEALTH
CARE. Some of you, like me, could say I am with Jesus Christ MUTUAL
LIFE, where the premium has already been paid, and the benefits are
out of this world. I will NOT switch no matter what the Obama gog says.

Obama's fix for Social Security related financial problems quite LITERALLY
and simply could be stated - KILL those who have been forced to contribute
to the Social Security schemes before they can get much chance to take
anything out. Allow me to explain that rather outrageous, but sad truth.

We should be thankful that most doctors take the Hippocratic Oath quite
seriously, and believe it to be their moral DUTY to do everything for the
patient regardless of the cost or effects on others. Doctors who do take
their Hippocratic Oath seriously would be OUTRAGED IF THEY were to
read the 1600 pages of the Proposed Health Care laws. It will now be
Federal EUGENICS PROGRAMMED computers telling doctors what
kind of treatment and care that they can or can NOT give to their patients.
The Federal computer will say do NOT give much care to a grandmother
with Parkinson's, counsel her on the choices of the ways to die. That is
also what the Federal computer will say for the child with cerebral palsy.
Obama care is Hitler's Heath Care on STEROIDS.

The assault against seniors began with something that was slipped into
the so-called stimulus package. That package included funding for so-called
comparative effectiveness research, which means limiting care based on the
patient's age. QALY's means Quality Adjusted Life Years. The QALY is the
formula where the COST of Treatment is DIVIDED by the age of the patient.
In England today, QALY's are used, and is the basis for which TREATMENT
IS DENIED TLDER PEOPLE. You should see the Obama plan to kill the
contributors to SS before they make many withdrawals. Older patients are
takers rather than givers to the federal slave tax monster, and if the QALY
does not get them this will.

The House Bill denies access to treatment by specialists as you can read,
if you like in pages 660-688, of the 1,017 page House Bill. Ask any doctor.
Heart-disease patients treated by general practitioners instead of specialists,
are often misdiagnosed and treated incorrectly. The statistics prove such
patients are readmitted to the hospital more frequently, and die sooner.

The House bill being pushed by the Obama Eugenicists will deny access
to cures which the Federal Eugenics programmed computers say are too
expensive. The Obama Eugenics Health will deny access to specialists.
BUT - TA DAHHHHH - Obama's Eugenic Health plan REQUIRES that
seniors are counseled on end-of-life options, including refusing nutrition
where state law allows it. Yes. You can read about it on pages 425-446 of
the House Bill. It would be good for some newsman to ask Obama what he
thinks of the Oregon program of offering physician-assisted suicide instead
of treatment.

The Obama plan, just like the Hitler plan, is EUGENICS. Obama and Hitler
are very likeminded in their belief that living longer burdens society. Medical
data verifies this is NOT true. A patient who dies at 67 spends three times as
much on health care at the end of life as a patient who lives to 90. If Obama
and his antichrist fellow EUGENICS travelers think the best thing we can do
is reduce the population of the world, why don't they show us the way of
leadership by example, and GO FIRST.

.

Pray for the Peace of Jerusalem. Pray Psalm 83 every day. Only be
very strong and of good courage. Stay IN the Word.

Click to expand...

Since this is such a large bill, can you point out where lawmakers exempt themselves?

And of course, nationalized healthcare really stinks if you are an unwanted unborn baby...but what concern is that of yours? It's legal, so who cares if it happens? Never let the murder of children go to waste, when it can also give you a chance to slam Republicans.

Click to expand...

I do... But the best way to solve the problem is to pass legislation to make it illegal.

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Active Member

The provision has been quoted on here several times...you can keep your coverage...but you can't ever change it. This effectively makes private insurance null and void.

It's in the bill.

Under the Orwellian header of "Protecting The Choice To Keep Current Coverage," the "Limitation On New Enrollment" section of the bill clearly states:
"Except as provided in this paragraph, the individual health insurance issuer offering such coverage does not enroll any individual in such coverage if the first effective date of coverage is on or after the first day" of the year the legislation becomes law.
So we can all keep our coverage, just as promised — with, of course, exceptions: Those who currently have private individual coverage won't be able to change it. Nor will those who leave a company to work for themselves be free to buy individual plans from private carriers.
From the beginning, opponents of the public option plan have warned that if the government gets into the business of offering subsidized health insurance coverage, the private insurance market will wither. Drawn by a public option that will be 30% to 40% cheaper than their current premiums because taxpayers will be funding it, employers will gladly scrap their private plans and go with Washington's coverage.
The nonpartisan Lewin Group estimated in April that 120 million or more Americans could lose their group coverage at work and end up in such a program. That would leave private carriers with 50 million or fewer customers. This could cause the market to, as Lewin Vice President John Sheils put it, "fizzle out altogether."
What wasn't known until now is that the bill itself will kill the market for private individual coverage by not letting any new policies be written after the public option becomes law.

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