Re: Glyph of Renew vs Glyph of Flash Heal

Originally Posted by Zcrub

Now, why would you take any of those as holy? Glyph of CoH, Glyph of PoH and Glyph of Guardian Spirit are all far better (in almost any situation, except when only spamhealing the tank probably, but how often do you do that in Ulduar as a priest anyway).

Re: Glyph of Renew vs Glyph of Flash Heal

Originally Posted by CSJenova

Same thing that happened to mages when they took imp frostbolt/fireball back in the day, but was eventually changed

While I have no opinion on whether or not your theory is correct, this is a false point. The c/o nerf on mage talents was a weird, short term fix to mages placing too high on dps charts in tbc beta (from my understanding, not entirely sure why they do anything). It wasn't a game mechanics issue and no other spell time reduction ability has ever, to my knowledge, functioned like this. (and again, I really didn't understand the nerf then and still don't now)

Re: Glyph of Renew vs Glyph of Flash Heal

Originally Posted by dionadar

Third: Guardian Spirit goes unto the tank in most raids I know... And that is arguably exactly what you are saying Glyph of Flash Heal is there for...

Guardian Spirit is a lifesaver, Flash Heal glyph saves you a tiny amount of mana, you just can't compare them. I don't get how people can possibly take the Flash Heal glyph over Guardian Spirit, you have to be doing something wrong, even in the heaviest AoE damage fights in Ulduar I have never even used a mana potion so far from spamming PoH + a CoH, let alone tankhealing/spot healing.

Originally Posted by dionadar

Enough fights do not grant friendly enough damage to counter it by using AoE heals...

We're talking about Ulduar 25man right? The place is all about AoE damage

Originally Posted by dionadar

I will not deign to say anything about this but that except for the first one, each answer has a valid point (with which you might agree or not, but both lower statements are widely enough supported such that it becomes rather improbably that they are simply wrong)

Having both the Renew glyph and the Flash Heal glyph is wrong no matter how you play, and if they turn out to be the best glyphs for the way you play, again, you're doing something horribly wrong. The Flash Heal glyph is in no way mandatory for a healing priest either, I'm doing just fine without it.

Re: Glyph of Renew vs Glyph of Flash Heal

Originally Posted by Zcrub

Guardian Spirit is a lifesaver

No doubting that, but when I use it to save a life it oftentimes proccs, thus invalidating the glyph in either case... If you need to use guardian spirit more than 2-3 times every 3 minutes (we at least have at least 2 holy priests in our raid currently) than maybe your tank is doing something wrong, or you are WAY into fights where I have never been (which is not that probable ^^)

Originally Posted by Zcrub

Flash Heal glyph saves you a tiny amount of mana

It is not that tiny, depending on your use of flash heal. In our last Ulduar 25 run (which contains a bit of flame leviathan, so the number might actually be a bit low) I did 651 flash heals, putting this spell third after PoH and CoH with 15% healing done.
Now, obviously some of that were SoL proccs, but still every single one that did not, saved me about 70 mana. Now, considering that SoL was up 405 times and that in AoE heavy fights it might very well run out, lets assume we have 300 FH w/o SoL, equalling 300 * 70 = 21000 mana.
This is considerably less than the (op) sould of the dead with 82000 mana, so why am I advocating Glyph of flash heal here?
Three simple reasons:
First, the OP does not even have access to GS yet
Second, if you find a good use for GS while leveling your tank fails bigtime.
Third, while leveling and having fun in low instances Flash Heal rocks the house...

Originally Posted by Zcrub

you just can't compare them.

One increases HpM and the other increases HpS - how can I not compare them?

Originally Posted by Zcrub

even in the heaviest AoE damage fights in Ulduar I have never even used a mana potion so far from spamming PoH + a CoH, let alone tankhealing/spot healing.

Try gemming for HpS...

Originally Posted by Zcrub

We're talking about Ulduar 25man right? The place is all about AoE damage

Having both the Renew glyph and the Flash Heal glyph is wrong no matter how you play, and if they turn out to be the best glyphs for the way you play, again, you're doing something horribly wrong.

No, especially when using a specc like yours, you can switch your playstyle completely away from PoH, where you use the Renew Glyph to increase your HpS in fights where only a couple people take damage and can again decide between GS and FH glyphs as the third. For standard speccs/playstyles you are quite right however, the Renew glyph is quite useless.

Re: Glyph of Renew vs Glyph of Flash Heal

Originally Posted by Melissa

I disagree with you since Disc priest tree have Improved Flash Heal (Reduces the mana cost of your Flash Heal by 15%, and increases the critical effect chance of your Flash Heal by 10% on friendly targets at or below 50% health.) if you combinate it with Glyph of Flash Heal ( Reduces the mana cost of you Flash Heal by 10%)

It will be in total -25%

so Flash Heal is defently good as DISC

Glyph of Renew is not really nessercary.

For Disc tree go for these major Glpyhs: Glyph of Penance, Glyph of PW: Shield and Glyph of Flash Heal.

Hmhmm.... I think u know nothing about this thing. This really goes like this:
Lets assume that your Flash heal costs 500 mana. When u put 3 talent points in to "Improved Flash Heal"
= -15% mana cost which makes Flash heal to cost 425 and if you have the glyph on it removes 10% mana cost from 425 which makes Flash heal to cost 382.5 mana. 500-(0.75*500) = 375 is -25% from the Flash heal mana cost. 500*x = 382.5
x = 382.5/500
x = 0.765
So REALLY mana cost of Flash heal will be reduced by 23.5% ^^
Those -% doest stack together. Talents will always be counted first. Just for you guys to know this =P

Re: Glyph of Renew vs Glyph of Flash Heal

Originally Posted by Kelesti

With the exception of building Serendipity charges for an uber-prayer (like Razorscale, when needed), I don't even use flash anymore as Holy. Renew, all the way.

Well this could be contractidory, with the huge aoe all the bosses have nowadays, Kologarn, Ignis, Freya with adds up, Mimiron, Council, Hodir basically you need a PoH more or less every 10 seconds.
This makes casting 2 FH (assuming 1 is free thanks to SoL) cast 3 or 4 renews, a PoM and CoH, and the new PoH is ready to be launched for the AoE.

Excluding those heavy AoE bosses, and talking about the others, Vezax, Thorim, Razorscale, 70% of XT002 fight, Yogg-Saron, where basically AoE is non-existant, I can't actually detect an utility for an high use of Renew on players except tanks.

Renew is optimal for the heavy AoE bosses, when you know that sooner or later multiple damage to random players is going to come, but in the fight like the ones mentioned above, overusing Renew to everyone will just result in a huge useless overhealing, just like the bolts Razorscale shoots, just needs a FH, ther's no need to renew the player, he'll just be topped by the next Chain Heal incoming, your Renew will be useless, and it's unlikely he's gonna get hit again by a bolt in the remaining 15 seconds of Renew. Same for Hodir Chain Lightning, it's unlikely for 2, or 3 targets to get hit by Lightning 2 times in a row, making Renew on him quite useless, when FH to top him is the optimal heal.

It's more likely that only the 2-3 tanks the raid bring will need constant Renew up.

Re: Glyph of Renew vs Glyph of Flash Heal

yes, and no, Izenhart. If your raid can understand that HoTs actually -can- heal a target without needing to be sniped, those kind of fights are the PERFECT reason to use Renew, they took a chunk of damage, but they're relatively safe for the next little bit.

Assuming you run with Druids, your Shaman uses Riptide as an actual HoT without an instant follow-through on Chain...

They are a very powerful asset to set it out and let it play through, again assuming your raid can actually play with them.

Re: Glyph of Renew vs Glyph of Flash Heal

Originally Posted by Kelesti

If your raid can understand that HoTs actually -can- heal a target without needing to be sniped, those kind of fights are the PERFECT reason to use Renew, they took a chunk of damage, but they're relatively safe for the next little bit

Well, basically what you ask is that all of the spam heal players (Shamans, FoH paladins, FH priests, Disc priests on a certain degree) just stop healing non-tank players during non AoE-Bosses, because there will be us priests, druids and shamans topping them with long-duration spells.

That's basically asking other healers to hold their e-peen to let HoT work to their full duration.

Re: Glyph of Renew vs Glyph of Flash Heal

Originally Posted by Izenhart

Well, basically what you ask is that all of the spam heal players (Shamans, FoH paladins, FH priests, Disc priests on a certain degree) just stop healing non-tank players during non AoE-Bosses, because there will be us priests, druids and shamans topping them with long-duration spells.

That's basically asking other healers to hold their e-peen to let HoT work to their full duration.

Not quite, since at least with our raid, paladins tend to use their beacon of light on the MT and then heal something else...

Re: Glyph of Renew vs Glyph of Flash Heal

imo Renew is one of the best spells a holy priest has only if they have spec'd into it. without empowered and improved renew it becomes very inefficient. but in this discussion i'd choose GlyphoRenew > GlyphoFlash Heal.

holy pve: CoH / GS ((are generally a must [obviously it changes with play style])) / (last glyph is playstyle) ..
i use CoH / Renew / PoH since i can stand not having GS extra 2 mins and this fits my play style perfectly.

disc pvp: wtf is either of these doing there? there are better replacements..
Penance / IF(or Smite) / Pain Suppress

Re: Glyph of Renew vs Glyph of Flash Heal

Originally Posted by draticus

Here's the point as I see...

If you're holy and you're using flash heal enough to make the glyph worth it then spec disc and be a lot more efficient.

i think it depends a lot on your playstyle... my most used spell as holy is fheal. I spam it a lot to get serendipity stacks, i hardly cast any renews besides keeping it going on tanks, i don't se how that would make renew glyph any bit viable in my case...

I'm using GS, Fheal and CoH. I dont see PoH glyph being that effective... but could be wrong.

Re: Glyph of Renew vs Glyph of Flash Heal

"no, he's right. The math doesn't work out. The glyph is supposed to increase each tick by 25%, and reduce total ticks by 1. But the total healing goes down -- something's wrong with their implementation. You don't get (healing from a 5-tick renew) over (4 ticks). You get slightly less."

it's a small ammount but the renew glyph makes it heal for less, albeit larger ticks.

sorry to break it to you... but EJ doesnt know everything... do the math... lets say you have a renew (unglyphed) that does 5000 total healing (1000 per tick with 5 ticks)

with glyph of renew, it will do 1250 per tick for 4 ticks or, 5000 total healing

Re: Glyph of Renew vs Glyph of Flash Heal

I've tested this myself and reported it to Blizzard on the PTR for 3.1 already but it seems
Blizzard wants it to work the way it does.

All Glyphs are applied BEFORE talents.

What this means is that you will lose healing on renew if you use the glyph and ANY talents that increase healing
in general or the healing done by renew alone.

If you spend zero talent points that increase the healing of renew than each tick of renew with the glyph will be exactly
25% higher than without the glyph.

If you however run a full holy spec with all Renew and Healing increasing talents, then your renew ticks will only be about 20%
higher with the Glyph than they would be without it. So if you use the Glyph the total healing done by renew will actually be reduced, but not because of a lower spell coefficient but because of the Glyph being applied before talents...

It is similar for the Penance glyph. The 2 second cooldown reduce gets applied before the 20% Cooldown reduce talent. Otherwise Penance would have a 6 seconds cooldown and not 6.4 seconds.

You are free to do the Maths behind the renew and penance glyph before talents yourself. I already did them once just for myself
for renew and tested it with a lot of talent combinations...

Re: Glyph of Renew vs Glyph of Flash Heal

I have no mana problems with out glyph of Flash Heal. If that ever changed I would drop Renew for it I guess but as of now my job is raid healing, so I only really use Renew, CoH, PoM, and PoH. Flash Heal I use less often and it's usually SoL proc cast. Playing this way I have had no mana or HPS issues.

Empowered Renew boosts Holy Concentrations up time by a lot not to mention another shot at SoL. The quicker it ends the more you can cast it. Anything instant is good for raid healing, and anything instant that can crit is better.

I think the PoH glyph is negligible. It's less than 1000 healing over time on a non crit. If it was instant I think it would be a much stronger contender.

Glyph of CoH and GS are the 2 major ones I think. Glyph of Flash Heal and Renew can be changed depending on your play style. I for one don't even take Empowered Healing do to focusing on raid healing mainly (ToF+Blessed Resilience = more healing this way) so Flash Heal glyph is less appealing to me.