Sunday, May 06, 2007

In an earlier post, I made a comment that “Theoretically, it is of course quite possible that future catastrophic pandemics might develop along a similar pathway, God forbid, using the gay community as an incubator.”

19 comments:

Let me put the gay and religion issue into perspective. In Judaism, as well as in Islam, homosexuality is a sin. The penalty for this sin is death by stoning. In this, and previous blog, JP has attacked homosexuality. His grounds for such attacks are as follows:

1. Homosexuality is a sin in the bible. Therefore, homosexuality is bad.2. Homosexuals commit other immoral acts, such as child molestation, at rates much higher than heterosexuals.3. Homosexuals contribute or act as vectors for transmission of diseases. Therefore the act of homosexuality is wrong.

I believe that JP makes all three of these arguments. It is important to deal with these separately, as they are inherently different arguments.

Let me deal with the third argument first. Not even the ardent homosexual activist would dispute that homosexuals tend to be promiscuous. They just are! There may be many reasons for this, and perhaps we can blog about them in the future, but the fact remains that promiscuity is much more common among the homosexual community. The result of this behavior is that sexually transmitted infectious diseases (STD’s) tend to be more common within this community. This is a fact of life. To react to this, public health measures must and have been taken. These measures could be the encouragement to refrain from promiscuity, the use of condoms, frequent doctor visits, etc. But the fact remains that JP rightly makes the point that transmission of STD’s is worsened by the sexual habits of homosexuals. Of course, I do not believe that homosexual should be punished for this, any more than, say, sedantary people who suffer heart attacks. I am merely saying that each group of people has a unique circumstance and there are health consequences to the behaviors of each community.

Regarding the second point that homosexuals tend to have higher incidence of child molestation, I do believe that this is true. There are organizations within the gay movement (such as ‘Man Boy Love’ associations) that promote child sexual activity. This is despicable, and this marks a shameful blemish on the homosexual community. Those who promote these acts or commit them should be punished. Stoning child molesters may not be so bad. Of course, you must keep in mind that many Catholic priests have committed and are committing the same acts and they too must be equally punished.

Regarding the first point that homosexuality is condemned in the Torah and therefore homosexuality is immoral, let me first point out that this is true. Several times in the Torah it is mentioned that homosexuality is a sin and the homosexual must be stoned. Incidentally, as an aside, by homosexuality I think Torah means ‘gay sex’. Lesbian homosexuality is not mentioned or condemned. In any case, keep in mind that there are many transgressions in the bible that carry the death penalty. Here are just a few:• Masturbation• Carrying wood on Shabbat• Using the Lord’s name in vain. Thus for saying “God damn it” one would be stoned!• Intermarriage• Touching the arc of the covenant

There are many many transgressions that would get you killed in the bible. I seem to remember that in the morning prayer of ‘shaharit’ there is a prayer that enumerates the offerings and sacrifices to God. Evidently if one were to err and place a little honey on the vegetable mixture to be offered to God, this too would carry the death penalty. This post would become too long if I were to tell of all the transgressions that can get one killed.

My point is that we adhere to none of these anymore. We do not catch a person who works on Shabbat and stone him to death. We don’t stone the teenager who looks at a dirty magazine and plays with himself. We do no such things. In fact, I submit that we do not do more than 50% of the things that the Torah tells us to do. The rabbis tell us that this is because we do not have The Temple any more - That Beth Hamighdash is destroyed so we can no longer do a lot of things. Well, ok then. You can not do many things; why do you pick homosexuality to rail against while ignoring the many other things that Torah demands blood for? Why do you pick and choose your sins?

Either you apply the Torah evenly and fairly or don’t apply it at all.

badrabbi, you can ask many teenagers about this, and many will reply the same:"life" sucks.

this life of falsehood and fickleness isnt worth living, even for most immersed in it. suicide rates are high, and i know why firsthand. there isnt anything worth it, the biggest animalistic pleasures to some - sex, food, and "emptying" - seem worthless to some who see A bigger picture (as in, bigger than their own personal, be it thinking of one person up to a large country, but once one thinks about the world at large, i think it changes IMHO)

i today have no problem living by standards, and i feel great sticking to them. i took a bit at a time of course, but i built myself to the point where dropping them reminds me how dead i once was.

-another argument one could use: in judaism, after a circumcision, the "member" is refered to as the "Bris" (covenant). G-d says to keep the Bris holy (Bris Kodesh - theres a site about it just google) so even if homosexuality or illicit sexual activity, even if it seems to be "harmless" to greater society, its still a crushing blow to the Bris KKodesh. I know this firsthand too. ive had spiritual highs (out of the few)come crashing down because of these "impurities." the point is that its not just a man-to-man problem, its a large sin if you will to G-d

badrabbi incorrectly stated that masturbation is (was) punished by the death penalty. Nonsense. Another error he made is claiming that one was stoned for saying "God damn it"; that isn't the halachic definition of blasphemy.

1. Regarding Masturbation, please see Genesis 38:10. There, the goings on of Onan and the reasons why the infinitely merciful God killed him are written. Now the Rabbis have incorrectly interpreted this in the Oral Law as the sin of “spilling seed”. In fact Rav Sforno and others have elaborate halachas – absurd ones such as the requirement to wear thick pants while horseback riding, lest the rider get excited and spill his seed. I would be happy to supply you with ample rabbinic non-sense in this regard (can someone tell me how to place links in a post?). Take my word for it: masturbation is very bad in the eyes of the all knowing God (as interpreted by rabbis).2. Regarding Blasphemy, all I can say is please read the wikipedia entry on the definition of Blasphemy, then read the following verses of the bible: Lev 24:14, 24:16, and 24:23. Also, I have taken the liberty to reproduce another lovely verse from the Torah for your reading pleasure. Judge for yourselves what blasphemy is and how it is punished: Leviticus 24: …10And the son of an Israelite woman, whose father was an Egyptian, went out among the children of Israel: and this son of the Israelite woman and a man of Israel fought together in the camp; 11And the Israelite woman's son blasphemed the name of the Lord, and cursed. And they brought him unto Moses: (and his mother's name was Shelomith, the daughter of Dibri, of the tribe of Dan:) 12And they put him in ward, that the mind of the LORD might be shewed them. 13And the LORD spake unto Moses, saying, 14Bring forth him that hath cursed without the camp; and let all that heard him lay their hands upon his head, and let all the congregation stone him. Yet another act by the all merciful God!

Sigh. I am not disagreeing with you with the fact that masturbation is frowned upon in Orthodox Judaism, especially in the mystical traditions. But NO NO NO, it is NOT punishable by the death penalty. Are you trying to "prove" otherwise from the story about Onan (whose death, as you know, wasn't due to masturbation)? It has ZERO implications from a judicial standpoint and it is silly to suggest otherwise.

As for blasphemy, yes, the penalty for this was death. I am not arguing that. I am arguing about your (or wiki's) definition of blasphemy. It is NOT, as you claim, using God's name in a curse. It is cursing God! BIG difference in Jewish law.

Zdub;Why the sigh? Again, I do not know how to plant links on the comment posts, so I have copied and pasted the wiki entry on Orthodox Judaism's view on masturbation. That there is a 'makhloket' or disagreement amongst them is not my fault:

Orthodox JudaismMasturbation is not explicitly prohibited in the Hebrew Bible. The Talmud, however, forbids male masturbation, as it leads to unnecessary spilling of semen, or the impure thoughts of women other than the man's lawful wife. This prohibition is derived from the Biblical narrative of Onan (Talmud Niddah 13a). The Talmud (ibid) likens the act to murder and idolatry. The wrath displayed by God toward Onan was invoked not through the act of spilling semen, but through disobedience to God's command for Onan to impregnate his brother's widow. Others consider the death sentence excessive for failure to properly follow the laws of Levirate marriage - the Biblical punishment for refusing a Levirate marriage was to be spit on, in public, by the woman who was refused. (It may be noted that Onan did not actually refuse the marriage, he refused to impregnate his new wife) Because Onan's punishment was so much more severe, they argue that the spilling of semen was the relevant offense.

According to the Kitzur Shulchan Aruch, "It is forbidden to discharge semen in vain. This is a graver sin than any other in the Torah".[1] However, Beis Shmuel expounds that this is not literal, but rather serves to frighten man into avoiding the sin.[2]

OK, there it is. But, Zdub, I think you may be missing the forest for the trees. Please re-read my initial post, as the point I was attempting to make was not really regarding masturbation. If your attempt was to reduce the veracity of my argument through lowering its factual credibility, please note that even if you were correct about masturbation, which you are not, my arguments regarding homosexuality are not at all diminished.

Badrabbi, all of my comments were directed towards this statement of yours:

In any case, keep in mind that there are many transgressions in the bible that carry the death penalty. Here are just a few:• Masturbation...• Using the Lord’s name in vain. Thus for saying “God damn it” one would be stoned!

I replied that masturbation does not carry the death penalty. Your response was to keep quoting me examples of how masturbation is considered a sin under Jewish law, something I did NOT disagree with. It is just not an actionable offense.

The other comment was on your erroneous example of blasphemy (using Gods name to curse someone is NOT blasphemy, using Gods name to curse God IS; see Sanhedrin 56a for details.)

On these two points, I'm right and you are wrong.

I never addressed the issue of homosexuality, but it is clear that the Torah proscribes death (possibly only for anal sex). Whether it was ever carried out for this I don't know, considering how difficult it was to fulfill all of the requirements for administering the death penalty.

Goodness gracious! I gave you the examples for a reason! I will try again:The Talmud, in Niddah 13a "likens masturbation to murder and idolatry". In other words, this offense of masturbation, like idolatry and murder, carried the death penalty. I did not give you 'examples'; I gave you the Talmud's take on it. I am not sure what you want from me?

regarding blasphemy, I once again wrote the bible to you verbatim. It does not say what blasphemy is. It just says that this guy "cursed". God killed him for this transgression. Again, what do you want from me?

If this is the worst criticism you have for me regarding my post, I accept it and will leave for the reader to decide whether I erred.

One more thing: To say that a given law has not been carried out does not make such a law fair.Let's say, for example, that there were a law on the books that said that Jews were not allowed to go to a public bathroom. Let's say that the penalty for this 'crime' was 30 days in jail. Now, if I told you that this law was never enforced, does it make the law any less abhorent?

The Talmud does say that one who masturbates deserves death and is like an idolater and murderer. However, in Talmud-speak, that does not mean that he is actually put to death. The Mishnah in Sanhedrin chapters 7 through 9 lists all criminals who are actually executed. Masturbators are not listed.

Goodness Jeremy jacobs. If you think that I advocate that people should be put to death for masterbation, then I submit that your reading comprehension is weak indeed. Similarly, if you think that The statement that you quote in your first sentence of your comment reflects my opinion, then again, you are lacking in your comprehension.

My claim is indeed that the rates of child molestation are higher in Homosexual community. There is no proof, but the evidence is the existence of NAMBLA, a homosexual organization, with some influence, which encourages Man-Boy gay sex.

I do not claim that homosexuals commit other immortal acts.

I also do not know about wife beating in the Charedi community. What is your point?

I am curious how you did on your reading comprehension portion of the SAT's...

About Me

I am an Orthodox Jew and I live in Rockland County, NY.
I was raised as a non-practicing Lutheran by my adopted parents and I converted to Judaism at age 16.
This blog as a rule follows the teachings of the Lithuanian rabbinical seminaries of the 1920s and 1930s. Specifically, I have been very influenced by the recordings and writings of Rabbi Avigdor Miller obm.
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