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[HBO] Game of Thrones S2 on Sunday; spoilers abound, no tags; NO BOOKS

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who're the men in renly's own camp mocking renly? And Littlefinger's quip isn't because anyone hates Teh Gays, it's because it's Littlefinger and he knows you know he knows you know. Also it's letting the audience know there's a thing between Renly and Loras, setting up the scene between them later in the episode.

The guards were making mention of Loras's homosexuality, but they were also saying he's one of the best swordsmen in Westeros. I'm not sure it's supposed to come as a surprise they would decide their guys are better? And the comment is hardly "eww gays, gross"

and I'm pretty sure you said et cetera because you couldn't think of any more. Which for a world as cruel as Westeros, is really pushing it. I mean this isn't set in a high school, people are merciless to Renly because they're merciless to everyone. Yes, Renly's weak point is his homosexuality - not because being gay makes him weak, but because it makes it harder to produce an heir.

who're the men in renly's own camp mocking renly? And Littlefinger's quip isn't because anyone hates Teh Gays, it's because it's Littlefinger and he knows you know he knows you know. Also it's letting the audience know there's a thing between Renly and Loras, setting up the scene between them later in the episode.

The guards were making mention of Loras's homosexuality, but they were also saying he's one of the best swordsmen in Westeros. I'm not sure it's supposed to come as a surprise they would decide their guys are better? And the comment is hardly "eww gays, gross"

and I'm pretty sure you said et cetera because you couldn't think of any more. Which for a world as cruel as Westeros, is really pushing it. I mean this isn't set in a high school, people are merciless to Renly because they're merciless to everyone. Yes, Renly's weak point is his homosexuality - not because being gay makes him weak, but because it makes it harder to produce an heir.

I said "etc." because I'm not going to rewatch five hours of TV now to scour for quotes just to please you. Sorry.

People are trying to conflate a couple semi-romantic, non graphic scenes of Renly getting shaved and then him making out with a guy as being equal to all the lesbian/hetero sex scenes, body shots, displays of sexuality, flashes of breasts and/or vagina, etc. involving women so as to argue that the show in no way puts female flesh on greater or more frequent display than men and therefore has no gender disparity whatsoever between depictions.

I don't think this is actually a true statement. People do seem to be arguing various points and getting the arguments mixed together though.

Also: a distant flash of the external features of a woman's nethers is not the same thing as showing a vagina on the show.

Anyway, people who make fun of Renly on camera weren't making fun of him for liking dudes. They were making fun of him, and the fact that he likes dudes is the most easily accessible and acceptable thing to mock. It's like when dumb people obsessively make fun of my friend for having two moms. They can't think of anything more creative and that's such an obvious focus of mockery that it's all they go for, every time. Whereas with people who don't have two moms, they have to think harder and make fun of their weight or something.

who're the men in renly's own camp mocking renly? And Littlefinger's quip isn't because anyone hates Teh Gays, it's because it's Littlefinger and he knows you know he knows you know. Also it's letting the audience know there's a thing between Renly and Loras, setting up the scene between them later in the episode.

The guards were making mention of Loras's homosexuality, but they were also saying he's one of the best swordsmen in Westeros. I'm not sure it's supposed to come as a surprise they would decide their guys are better? And the comment is hardly "eww gays, gross"

and I'm pretty sure you said et cetera because you couldn't think of any more. Which for a world as cruel as Westeros, is really pushing it. I mean this isn't set in a high school, people are merciless to Renly because they're merciless to everyone. Yes, Renly's weak point is his homosexuality - not because being gay makes him weak, but because it makes it harder to produce an heir.

I said "etc." because I'm not going to rewatch five hours of TV now to scour for quotes just to please you. Sorry.

When you characterize a character's treament as "he was mercilessly made fun of by the rest of the cast and then murdered horribly [for being gay]" I just expect say, an example of a major character doing so. You said "the rest of the cast" so I assumed examples would be easy to come up with. And I mean I'd think that you would have examples in your mind already, or why would you make that argument?

Otherwise it sort of comes across as not thinking about what you wrote at all and yet writing it anyway, and then whining when someone points out your examples don't support your statement.

who're the men in renly's own camp mocking renly? And Littlefinger's quip isn't because anyone hates Teh Gays, it's because it's Littlefinger and he knows you know he knows you know. Also it's letting the audience know there's a thing between Renly and Loras, setting up the scene between them later in the episode.

The guards were making mention of Loras's homosexuality, but they were also saying he's one of the best swordsmen in Westeros. I'm not sure it's supposed to come as a surprise they would decide their guys are better? And the comment is hardly "eww gays, gross"

and I'm pretty sure you said et cetera because you couldn't think of any more. Which for a world as cruel as Westeros, is really pushing it. I mean this isn't set in a high school, people are merciless to Renly because they're merciless to everyone. Yes, Renly's weak point is his homosexuality - not because being gay makes him weak, but because it makes it harder to produce an heir.

I said "etc." because I'm not going to rewatch five hours of TV now to scour for quotes just to please you. Sorry.

If it's as prevalent as you claim, you shouldn't have to. Littlefinger isn't "the rest of the cast".

People are trying to conflate a couple semi-romantic, non graphic scenes of Renly getting shaved and then him making out with a guy as being equal to all the lesbian/hetero sex scenes, body shots, displays of sexuality, flashes of breasts and/or vagina, etc. involving women so as to argue that the show in no way puts female flesh on greater or more frequent display than men and therefore has no gender disparity whatsoever between depictions.

Good luck trying to find "all the lesbian" scenes. I can think of...two.
1) The much debated brothel scene, which is gratuitious but has a point - that Littlefinger manipulates all of the characters in his plots, from his whores all the way up to the politcians. As I said before, this hardly even counts as being sexy, as its all about business.
2) When Dany gets some "instruction" from one of her handmaidens prior to riding Drogo. This scene is sexy, as we are being shown Dany growing into her role of Khaleesi, and wanting to get into a more equal footing with her husband.

Neither of these scenes are "intimate", in the way the scenes with Renly and Loras are. Renly and Loras don't show the same amount of skin, sure, but the intimacy is more pronounced between the two. Its treated with more delicacy because their relationship is more real.

Note: I am not equating these scenes as being equal to all the other hetero scenes. I'm saying that the gay scenes they've shown have been less graphic and have had more meaning behind them than MOST of the hetero or female bits exposed scenes so far.

Edit: Frankly I'd say their scenes have been better than most of the other scenes, both for sexiness and plot point.

People are trying to conflate a couple semi-romantic, non graphic scenes of Renly getting shaved and then him making out with a guy as being equal to all the lesbian/hetero sex scenes, body shots, displays of sexuality, flashes of breasts and/or vagina, etc. involving women so as to argue that the show in no way puts female flesh on greater or more frequent display than men and therefore has no gender disparity whatsoever between depictions.

It refers more to things like the show always making the explicit sex either straight or lesbian, both of which arguably appeal to a male audience primarily. Of never once entertaining the idea of having Littlefinger give a monologue while two dudes go at it.

"My ethics first came from...no, no, no, you should be moaning louder and you should be thrusting so hard the other fellow's eyes look like they'll shoot across the room. He should stagger when he leaves! Anywho, when I was a child, my ethics first came to me..."

People are trying to conflate a couple semi-romantic, non graphic scenes of Renly getting shaved and then him making out with a guy as being equal to all the lesbian/hetero sex scenes, body shots, displays of sexuality, flashes of breasts and/or vagina, etc. involving women so as to argue that the show in no way puts female flesh on greater or more frequent display than men and therefore has no gender disparity whatsoever between depictions.

I don't think this is actually a true statement. People do seem to be arguing various points and getting the arguments mixed together though.

Also: a distant flash of the external features of a woman's nethers is not the same thing as showing a vagina on the show.

Anyway, people who make fun of Renly on camera weren't making fun of him for liking dudes. They were making fun of him, and the fact that he likes dudes is the most easily accessible and acceptable thing to mock. It's like when dumb people obsessively make fun of my friend for having two moms. They can't think of anything more creative and that's such an obvious focus of mockery that it's all they go for, every time. Whereas with people who don't have two moms, they have to think harder and make fun of their weight or something.

Really it's the difference between say, Mad Men being sexist and being set in a sexist world.

I have little doubt that Westeros is a miserable place for a gay person. But it's a miserable place for, well, basically everyone.

But in general homosexuality in Westeros just seems to be treated as socially embarrassing, rather than something that really causes disgust. Which is pretty true-to-life for a lot of ancient civilizations where religion wasn't all obsessed about it.

I assure you, I'm no prude. When overt sexuality and nudity fails to serve any real purpose to the story at hand, it's distracting.

If it was juggling rodeo clowns in the background it would be just as distracting, but without that extra level of shameless visceral pandering.

It's just an odd time to bring it up since the last 2 episodes have been good about avoiding pointless nudity. Last week's didn't have any and I felt the nudity in this episode was both brief and plot relevant. And we haven't had a brothel scene for a few weeks now.

I know. I feel like Ross is bringing up the same tired old argument every two pages of thread just incase there are people around who don't realize how silly goose his point of view is yet.

Note: I am not equating these scenes as being equal to all the other hetero scenes.

Gender disparity.

I guess what's really confusing me here is the idea that because the gay guys aren't being shown in as exploitative light as the girls, that its unfair...

Really? Would having a homo brothel make things equal in your eyes? Where dongs and butts are everywhere ala Spartacus? I think showing the one gay relationship highlighted in the show (so far? I don't know if there's more in the non-existent source material or not) be tender and heartfelt instead of campy and gratuitous is more a testament to the producers understanding of what nudity and sex means in Westeros than our judgmental morality.

Listen, the original comments that brought this up suggested that the amount and/or type of female nudity in the show is exploitative or unnecessary.

There is a whole bag of tricks developed over the past decades to deal with how to show sex on film without showing sex. HBO, God bless their hearts, does not need to use many of them because nudity is A-OK on their network. In fact, nudity is now even a trick in it's own right to help convey a message.

Is the trick overused in the show? Perhaps. I'd still argue that most of the nudity has a point, even if that point could have been made otherwise. And I much prefer it to having characters bluntly and unrealistically telling us how they and Westeros in general view sex, and then having multitudes of fades to black and females daintilly covering themselves with sheets after the fact despite what we've been told.

While I may be open to arguments about having to fill the "HBO quota", the argument that this material doesn't belong in the show is silly. The source is full of it, and necessarily, the show is full of it. It's only questionable in that sometimes some other way exists to make a similar point - but that doesn't make it gratuitous, because that would imply it serves no point. Just because it can titillate while telling the story does not mean it is only meant to do the former.

All of these activities are perfectly acceptable, moral things to do. So if you only talk about gratuitous sex and nudity, you are a prude. You probably don't notice, because you're only as prudish as other prudes around you - the sadly common prudes who feel there's something wrong with sex and nudity, that they need to be justified and excused in a way that other things such as shop-owning and bracelet-wearing don't. Perhaps you talk about gratuitous sex & violence, as if they are connected in any way beyond a sick faux-Victorianism that has plagued our society for, thankfully, not as long as conservatives would have you believe.

Averagely prudish is still prudish.

For me, the only use of the word gratuitous is in the listening. I never use the term myself. But it helps me to spot a prude the second they start talking about sex or nudity like it needs an excuse to be in fiction.

It refers more to things like the show always making the explicit sex either straight or lesbian, both of which arguably appeal to a male audience primarily.

Renly's entire existence goes against this post. Renly and his boyfriend have a couple of solid romps on camera.

Really? Shaving a dude's chest and *hearing* some sucking sounds and a scene of making out are as solid as two chicks finger banging loudly and full on crotch shots, and tittays being rude and flopping? Are you serious?

The world of Westeros is not 50% homosexual. So I am not expecting equal air time.

You're obviously oblivious to quantity/quality not being the same thing, either.

Honestly, Game of Thrones and Spartacus are the only two shows in this genre I can think of that dare to have any gay sexuality or positive gay characters in it at all, so I wouldn't go after them on this one.

Positive gay character? Renly is made fun of the whole time until his death.

Wow really?

Renly was the most popular noble in the entirety of Westeros

Just because some nobles made fun of him for being gay doesn't change that, and why the hell wouldn't they?! This is not a tolerant open minded society, fuck women are pretty much property.

Seriously though, the disdainful nobles Stannis and Tywin looked down on Renly, a man more loved by the people than either of them could ever be. That's a shocker.

Nope, no matter how many times I say it, it's still a strange term. It means un-needed, right? Too much? But with a negative connotation.

I would go with, in the context of this program, "inappropriate in its presentation, taste, and/or frequency."

I don't think there's ever a thing as "too much" nudity as a rote value. I don't think anyone ever advocated for fully-clothed people in pornography. I actually like a lot of sexually-charged programs and movies, and have no issue with the nudity in shows like True Blood or in films like Eyes Wide Shut and Blue Velvet. There's not a number or quota I think pushes something into "gratuitous," I think it's totally up to how appropriate it is for the moments it's contained within.

And really, I think a lot of the nudity in this show is fine. It may be a little one-sided, but it at least is generally in the service of . . . something; character development, environmental texture, actual plot- something is being serviced by the sex and nudity. However, I think there are more than a handful of instances where it has been questionable, either in regard to its need or presentation.

As a rule, Game of Thrones has two kinds of characters: villains and victims. There are exceptions to this rule, and there are plenty of characters who vacillate between one or the other, but for the most part you are A Dick or you are Getting Fucked. The End.

As a rule, Game of Thrones has two kinds of characters: villains and victims. There are exceptions to this rule, and there are plenty of characters who vacillate between one or the other, but for the most part you are A Dick or you are Getting Fucked. The End.

As a rule, Game of Thrones has two kinds of characters: villains and victims. There are exceptions to this rule, and there are plenty of characters who vacillate between one or the other, but for the most part you are A Dick or you are Getting Fucked. The End.

Although many people are both getting fucked and are dicks at the same time.

Westeros is pretty much a conga line of buttrape, with the king at the beginning and the peasants at the end

As shall be graphically explained once Littlefinger gets back to his brothel

As a rule, Game of Thrones has two kinds of characters: villains and victims. There are exceptions to this rule, and there are plenty of characters who vacillate between one or the other, but for the most part you are A Dick or you are Getting Fucked. The End.

Yeah, and it sucks a little. Right now the show is kind of playing out without any real stakes because so many people with ambition for power are horrible fucking people, so whichever one of them wins nothing will really change. It's down to just hoping a small handful of characters get out alive, or at the very least serve a purpose with their death.

Even Danaerys, who I was kind of rooting for, turned into just another entitled dumbshit child last episode, on a show already filled to the brim with them.

I assure you, I'm no prude. When overt sexuality and nudity fails to serve any real purpose to the story at hand, it's distracting.

If it was juggling rodeo clowns in the background it would be just as distracting, but without that extra level of shameless visceral pandering.

It's just an odd time to bring it up since the last 2 episodes have been good about avoiding pointless nudity. Last week's didn't have any and I felt the nudity in this episode was both brief and plot relevant. And we haven't had a brothel scene for a few weeks now.

I know. I feel like Ross is bringing up the same tired old argument every two pages of thread just incase there are people around who don't realize how silly goose his point of view is yet.

Regarding smallfolk being fed up with all the bullshit, I'm a tad curious if that's where the Brotherhood fits in. If they are revolutionaries of some variety or if they are something much more nefarious. Granted they could be nefarious revolutionaries.

Regarding smallfolk being fed up with all the bullshit, I'm a tad curious if that's where the Brotherhood fits in. If they are revolutionaries of some variety or if they are something much more nefarious. Granted they could be nefarious revolutionaries.

Regarding smallfolk being fed up with all the bullshit, I'm a tad curious if that's where the Brotherhood fits in. If they are revolutionaries of some variety or if they are something much more nefarious. Granted they could be nefarious revolutionaries.

The what?

Obviously we need to get the Tickler in here to talk to you about them.

(it was one of the questions he'd ask everybody that got picked..."where is the Brotherhood?")

Regarding smallfolk being fed up with all the bullshit, I'm a tad curious if that's where the Brotherhood fits in. If they are revolutionaries of some variety or if they are something much more nefarious. Granted they could be nefarious revolutionaries.

The what?

The thing that they were strapping buckets with rats in them to people over.

"Are there gold and jewels in the village?"
"Where is the Brotherhood?"
"Who helped them?"

I like any scene where The Hound reminds us of how badass he is. I put it up there with any scene involving Tyrion reminding us how witty he is.

And I'm pretty sure Little Finger figured out who she was. His attention was more on her than Twyin.

Yea, that sly smile of his was convincing enough for me. I was waiting for a prolonged stare from him towards the end of the scene as she walked away or something though.

It took me forever to back track through the 7+ pages of sex talk to find this, but in the final shot of that scene he does stare at her. His face is turned towards Tywin but he is clearly staring out of the corner of his eye at Arya. For probably a solid 8-10 seconds.

The vibe that I got from the scene was more "Littlefinger struggles to remember where he's seen Arya before and gives up," but I might have missed the bit Carpy is talking about.

His look towards the end, I think after he's out of close-up, seems like it moves from questioning to knowing. I may have to watch the scene again to be sure. Also, does Littlefinger or Tywin bring up the Stark girls first?