Is it still respecting my freedom if he does not talk to me even when I want him to?

I don't think he is not talking to you if you want him to. Do you really want him to talk to you? It took me 4 years before I could clear myself enough of the noises before being able to hear him correctly. And even today I still have trouble listening to him because my sins get in the way.

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Why are we expected to believe without evidence? This is called "blind faith". I consider it to be the height of irrationality.

I agree with you. That is why he gave us evidence. I am one of them.

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Believing without evidence is not the same as freely choosing. Why do you equate the two?

I do not, sorry if this is what you understood. I think that believing without evidence is different than freely choosing.

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Freely choosing usually means there is no coersion or penalties for your choice.

I don't think so. Could you give us an example where the exercise of your free will won't have any consequences?

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If we choose to follow god, we get rewarded infinitely. If we choose to not follow god, we get infinite torture.

I don't believe that those who don't follow god (during their lives) go to hell.

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How does knowing god exists prevent us from chosing to follow his rules? If the bible is to be believed, the ancient jews saw god, yet, they still had the option to disobey.

Again with the existence of God...Maybe I made a mistake in my phrasing. What makes you think I believe that his existence prevent us to chose to follow his rules?

Your point remains as an illusion with no evidence. You have yet to show how it is possible to freely choose to believe something does not exist. Either it does or it doesn't. Expecting someone to believe something is real when it is not is precisely a violation of free will.

Lukvance, do you think I choose to not know "God" exists?

We don't care. His existence is not based on your choice. He exist whether you want it or not. I can't force you to admit that Alzheimer's exist, if you don't want to believe you won't. Same thing with "your kid is sad". It's because of your free will. In conclusion, Your free will allows you to deny the existence of something that exist. But, this is not the subject here.

Answer my question! Do you think I choose to not know “God” exists?

I could guess that you've answered yes but then when I point out the absurdity of that answer you could deny it. You are dodging.

I know full well that the existence of something is not based on whether we choose to believe it or not. THAT IS EXACTLY WHAT YOU DON'T SEEM TO UNDERSTAND. It is quite amazing that you say things that you don't actually comprehend. It is almost as if you are parroting trained responses.

I DON'T CHOOSE TO BELIEVE THAT SOMETHING DOES OR DOESN'T EXIST! Why are you refusing to acknowledge that?

You also refuse to tell me how my free will allows me to choose to deny the existence of something?

Are you capable of doing this, denying the existence of anything which clearly exists? If so, please show me how, I have no clue how to deny the existence of something which clearly exists.

If you can prove that it is possible to honestly deny the existence of something which does clearly exist, THEN I will consider your point as reasonable. Until then your point is completely unreasonable and absurd.

Okay, here is the equation:

1. “God” exists2. “God” is capable of communicating with all humans.3. “God” is caring, loving and desires to communicate with all humans.4. Myself and others do not know that “God” exists.5. Due to premise 4, either premise 1, 2 or 3 is False6. Either “God” does not exist, is not capable of communication, or is not caring, loving or interested in communication with humans.

Lukvance, that is it. End of story. You either understand that or you refuse to understand it. The free will defense doesn’t work, try again.

Take your pick Lukvance, either “God” does not exist, “God” is not capable of communication with all humans or “God” is not a caring, loving god interested in communication with all humans.

OR you are going to need a far better response than this “God respects our freedoms” horse shit.

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"Shut him up! We have a lot invested in this ride - SHUT HIM UP! Look at my furrows of worry! Look at my big bank account, and my family! This just HAS to be real!" - Bill Hicks

The short answer : Because of your freedom.God does not hide from you but he respects your freedom. He won't talk to you if you don't want to. Making you believe, he could, but he wants you to chose him freely.

emphasis addedHow do you know this?

Well, it make more sense to me like that. Isn't it better to "serve" God without being his slave?

Because it is better to "serve" God without being his slave. It benefits you and him, it's a better relation.

Wow. Just simply wow.

Okay, you do in fact believe in a sadistic cruel dictator god.

Okay then, if your god does in fact exist, and when I die and stand before your god, I will gladly unzip my pants, pull out my cock, and piss directly onto your god. I welcome being the slave of your god as that is the only moral choice.

I will not submit to a dictator just to serve while others are forced to be slaves.

You can take your god and shove it right up your ass where it came from.

EDIT: One other thing, if you are serving your god in heaven, how exactly are you not already a slave? Sounds like you are screwed no matter what, it's just that you are happy about being screwed.

Are you telling god what he can or cannot do? Are you depriving god of his free will to choose whether or not to ever lie?Or does 'intentionally saying and/or communicating something that is not true' not lying when god does it?

You are right. I shouldn't have used "can" It's more like a "won't" because he chose freely to always tell the truth.

That doesn't really skirt the fact that you are imposing a limiting rule on god's actions. God will always tell the truth. When god will say something, it will be the truth.

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That's exactly the thing. You are less free to make the choice of the food being on the plate if you see it.

The food being there or not being there is NOT MY CHOICE, and you are well aware of that:

His existence is not based on your choice. He exist whether you want it or not.

How I respond to the fact that the food is or is not there is my choice.

You're doing it backwards.On the existence of x, I do not have a choice. x either exists or does not exist. It's existence is not predicated on my choice, knowledge, and/or belief of x's existence.On how I evaluate the merits of x, how I respond to the existence or lack-thereof ofx, I do have a choice. I can choose to like x, or I can choose to dislike x. I can choose to give thanks to x, or I can choose to not give thanks to x.

You seem to think I have a choice as to whether x does or does not exist. You seem to think that, if x does indeed exist, I have no choice on whether to like or dislike x, and I would have no choice to give thanks or not give thanks to x.

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Just like you are less free to not believe that I have a car once you ride in it.

You having a car or not having a carIS NOT MY CHOICE. Deciding to ride with you or not is my choice.

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Could you still believe there is no food if you see it? If so then you don't need to believe what the owner tells you, you don't even need the owner to tell you anything.

And exactly zero aspects of that have any bearing on whether or not food is actually there.

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"When we landed on the moon, that was the point where god should have come up and said 'hello'. Because if you invent some creatures, put them on the blue one and they make it to the grey one, you f**king turn up and say 'well done'."

Again with the existence of God...Maybe I made a mistake in my phrasing.

I am at a loss why you feel bringing up 'existence of god' would be off-topic in a thread whose subject is 'Why all the cloak and dagger sh*t [from God]?'.

I'm horribly confused.

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What makes you think that I believe that the Bible was written by people who didn't believe God existed?

Nothing. I never said that.

Perhaps I'm just grossly confused as to the point of this thread. Mayhaps you want to reword it to clear the air?

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"When we landed on the moon, that was the point where god should have come up and said 'hello'. Because if you invent some creatures, put them on the blue one and they make it to the grey one, you f**king turn up and say 'well done'."

That doesn't really skirt the fact that you are imposing a limiting rule on god's actions. God will always tell the truth. When god will say something, it will be the truth.

I'm not the one imposing anything. I'm just answering questions with the knowledge that I have of things that are. So yes, when god will say something, it will be the truth because he chose to always say the truth.

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You seem to think I have a choice as to whether x does or does not exist. You seem to think that, if x does indeed exist, I have no choice on whether to like or dislike x, and I would have no choice to give thanks or not give thanks to x.

I think I said (and you even quoted me) "His existence is not based on your choice. He exist whether you want it or not." The way I meant it was : "I think you don't have a choice as to whether x does or does not exist."I think you are free to like or dislike xI think you are free to give thanks to x (or not) even if you know that x exist.

The existence of God is alluded in this Topic because, if not, we would be asking a question about something that don't exist. And there are no answer to those type of questions.

Ps : Be careful please, I think you are quoting my answer to others question (not yours) and think it was yours.

That's exactly the thing. You are less free to make the choice of the food being on the plate if you see it. Just like you are less free to not believe that I have a car once you ride in it. Could you still believe there is no food if you see it? If so then you don't need to believe what the owner tells you, you don't even need the owner to tell you anything.

What you are describing here is ignorance, which I do not find to be freeing.

You've still not answered why this kind of "freedom" (if that is what it is) is desirable or good or why god would want it.

The short answer : Because of your freedom.God does not hide from you but he respects your freedom. He won't talk to you if you don't want to. Making you believe, he could, but he wants you to chose him freely.

emphasis addedHow do you know this?

Well, it make more sense to me like that. Isn't it better to "serve" God without being his slave?

So you believe that your god wants you to choose him freely..because you like that option better??

that is a cop-out, cowardly response. This, and other, responses indicate a severe lack of intellectual integrity.

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...religion is simply tribalism with a side order of philosophical wankery, and occasionally a baseball bat to smash...anyone who doesn't show...deference to the tribe's chosen totem.

~Astreja

To not believe in god is to know that it falls to us to make the world a better place.

I'm not the one imposing anything. I'm just answering questions with the knowledge that I have of things that are. So yes, when god will say something, it will be the truth because he chose to always say the truth.

I think you're just choosing your words too strongly then. You expect and assume, based on what you understand of his character, that anytime god communicates something, it is the truth. Essentially you are saying you trust god. Of course, because god has the choice on whether to tell the truth or tell a lie, you can't know that everything he says in the future will be true.

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I think I said (and you even quoted me) "His existence is not based on your choice. He exist whether you want it or not." The way I meant it was : "I think you don't have a choice as to whether x does or does not exist."I think you are free to like or dislike xI think you are free to give thanks to x (or not) even if you know that x exist.

That's exactly the thing. You are less free to make the choice of the food being on the plate if you see it. Just like you are less free to not believe that I have a car once you ride in it. Could you still believe there is no food if you see it? If so then you don't need to believe what the owner tells you, you don't even need the owner to tell you anything.

(Bold mine)So I'm confused. You seem to imply that I do have a choice on whether or not the food is actually there.

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The existence of God is alluded in this Topic because, if not, we would be asking a question about something that don't exist. And there are no answer to those type of questions.

Sure there are answers to those types of questions, but I guess...could you just reword the question/topic at hand? Because from where I stand, I'm still confused as to why, when screwtape or myself brought up god's existence, you needed to call it out and essentially say that it is irrelevant to the conversation.

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Ps : Be careful please, I think you are quoting my answer to others question (not yours) and think it was yours.

If the answer to another question is relevant to our line of conversation, I'll probably end up citing and/or quoting it. If you feel I ever do something like that in a disingenuous manner, call me out on it.

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"When we landed on the moon, that was the point where god should have come up and said 'hello'. Because if you invent some creatures, put them on the blue one and they make it to the grey one, you f**king turn up and say 'well done'."

The short answer : Because of your freedom.God does not hide from you but he respects your freedom. He won't talk to you if you don't want to. Making you believe, he could, but he wants you to chose him freely.

emphasis addedHow do you know this?

Well, it make more sense to me like that. Isn't it better to "serve" God without being his slave?

You have Satan, Moses, Abraham, Jesus' disciples, and others who were given plenty of evidence for their God, so the story goes. The only motherfucker with "free will"[1] in this equation is God, because he has the "free will" to be an unfair prick.

I DON'T CHOOSE TO BELIEVE THAT SOMETHING DOES OR DOESN'T EXIST! Why are you refusing to acknowledge that?

Because I disagree with you. I know it's semantics but belief is the result of a choice. So as you said loud and clear I would too say loud and clear YOU HAVE THE ABILITY TO CHOOSE TO BELIEVE THAT SOMETHING EXIST OR NOT even if this DOES NOT CHANGE IT'S EXISTENCE.I think of an example : The baby who thinks that you are not here when you close hide his eyes. He thinks that you are not here, that you don't exist anymore...but you are here. When he grows up he learns that to rely only on his eyes is not enough and start using his other senses. When he grows more he learn to let go of his senses and use his imagination.

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You also refuse to tell me how my free will allows me to choose to deny the existence of something?

For example I tell you my child is angry. You can decide/choose to not trust me and think that she is not angry then you will chose that her anger does not exist even if, in fact, it exist. You will deny the existence of her anger.

That's exactly the thing. You are less free to make the choice of the food being on the plate if you see it. Just like you are less free to not believe that I have a car once you ride in it. Could you still believe there is no food if you see it? If so then you don't need to believe what the owner tells you, you don't even need the owner to tell you anything.

What you are describing here is ignorance, which I do not find to be freeing. You've still not answered why this kind of "freedom" (if that is what it is) is desirable or good or why god would want it.

You call it ignorance I call it refusal to believe. It's the same result, no food in the plate.This kind of freedom is desirable because without it you would be a slave. God want you to choose him freely he does not want you to be his slave.

Well, it make more sense to me like that. Isn't it better to "serve" God without being his slave?

Sure it would be better. It also would have been better and made more sense to me if Hitler had wanted to revitalize Germany without all the Nazi stuff and killing. But what would be better or make more sense to me has nothing to do with what Hitler wanted or did.

Similarly, what makes sense to you and what you think would be better has no bearing whatsoever on how any alleged god runs the show.

The short answer : Because of your freedom.God does not hide from you but he respects your freedom. He won't talk to you if you don't want to. Making you believe, he could, but he wants you to chose him freely.

emphasis addedHow do you know this?

Well, it make more sense to me like that. Isn't it better to "serve" God without being his slave?

So you believe that your god wants you to choose him freely..because you like that option better??

that is a cop-out, cowardly response. This, and other, responses indicate a severe lack of intellectual integrity.

Not because I like that option better. Because it is the most logical reason.I will do great without your judgement. It's like you are trying to intimidate or diminish me in some way because you don't have any arguments left.

This kind of freedom is desirable because without it you would be a slave. God want you to choose him freely he does not want you to be his slave.

Could you reword the whole "god wants you to choose him freely"? I guess I'd like you to be more explicit in what you mean by 'choose him'.

I'm losing track of the purpose of this thread. Perhaps that will clear it up for me.

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"When we landed on the moon, that was the point where god should have come up and said 'hello'. Because if you invent some creatures, put them on the blue one and they make it to the grey one, you f**king turn up and say 'well done'."

Well, it make more sense to me like that. Isn't it better to "serve" God without being his slave?

Sure it would be better. It also would have been better and made more sense to me if Hitler had wanted to revitalize Germany without all the Nazi stuff and killing. But what would be better or make more sense to me has nothing to do with what Hitler wanted or did.

Similarly, what makes sense to you and what you think would be better has no bearing whatsoever on how any alleged god runs the show.

Alright! I get it now thankx to your example of Hitler. We don't have the same "true" base.For me, the definition of God is : the one with all the qualities (the bestest) Maybe yours is different. My logic is based on that definition.What is yours?

This kind of freedom is desirable because without it you would be a slave. God want you to choose him freely he does not want you to be his slave.

Could you reword the whole "god wants you to choose him freely"? I guess I'd like you to be more explicit in what you mean by 'choose him'.

I'm losing track of the purpose of this thread. Perhaps that will clear it up for me.

God could make you his b**ch but doesn't. He gave you your freedom so that everyday, every minute, every moment in your life you could choose to believe/follow/love/pray/thank him. It is more rewarding for you to choose freely than to be forced to do it. It's a little bit like the dog that stays inside the house even if the door is open. He is free to leave your house but choose to stay in with you. As opposed to the door closed. He is not free to leave the house and the result is the same, he stays in with you. Do we agree that one case is "better" than the other one?

This kind of freedom is desirable because without it you would be a slave. God want you to choose him freely he does not want you to be his slave.

Could you reword the whole "god wants you to choose him freely"? I guess I'd like you to be more explicit in what you mean by 'choose him'.

I'm losing track of the purpose of this thread. Perhaps that will clear it up for me.

God could make you his b**ch but doesn't. He gave you your freedom so that everyday, every minute, every moment in your life you could choose to believe/follow/love/pray/thank him. It is more rewarding for you to choose freely than to be forced to do it. It's a little bit like the dog that stays inside the house even if the door is open. He is free to leave your house but choose to stay in with you. As opposed to the door closed. He is not free to leave the house and the result is the same, he stays in with you. Do we agree that one case is "better" than the other one?

No, in your analogy, if your god is real, he is letting the bully next door beat the crap out of your dog whenever he wants.

You can't be as wishy-washy as your god and then give people their freedom. Not with inadequate information and poor oversight. If he is real, the freedom he gives us is the laziest version available. If all he cares about is having his ass kissed, then he has no other concerns about any of us, and is obviously willing to settle on getting his jollies from the survivors, not all members of the human race.

If he is real, he is the most obnoxious SOB ever. He is the ultimate absent parent, the ultimate support dodger, the ultimate responsibility dodger, the ultimate excuse maker. And you are agreeing with all of that. Plus you still love him. Even though he isn't real.

Most of us here aren't impressed with the claims you are making. That you are says a lot about what sort of human you are. Thanks for not being my neighbor.

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Anyone can beat around the bush. But unless you have permission from the bush, you probably shouldn't.

Okay, that's it. I have officially had it up to *here* with believers who slander non-believers by saying that they disbelieve on purpose.

I'm taking back the phrase "refuse to believe," right here and right now.

I refuse to believe that trying to believe in a god will produce a real one, rather than an imagined one.

I refuse to believe that a god would use "free will" as an excuse for hiding from people, then turn around and send those same people to Hell -- Permanently stripping them of the free will it supposedly wanted them to have.

I refuse to believe that accepting a human sacrifice as "payment" for one's own misdeeds would make anyone a better person.

And I refuse to believe that any genuine deity could be as incompetent, stupid, petty, stupid, vicious, egotistical, narcissistic and stupid, stupid, stoooopid as the god described in the Bible.

Could you reword the whole "god wants you to choose him freely"? I guess I'd like you to be more explicit in what you mean by 'choose him'.

I'm losing track of the purpose of this thread. Perhaps that will clear it up for me.

God could make you his b**ch but doesn't. He gave you your freedom so that everyday, every minute, every moment in your life you could choose to believe/follow/love/pray/thank him. It is more rewarding for you to choose freely than to be forced to do it. It's a little bit like the dog that stays inside the house even if the door is open. He is free to leave your house but choose to stay in with you. As opposed to the door closed. He is not free to leave the house and the result is the same, he stays in with you. Do we agree that one case is "better" than the other one?

I guess I still don't exactly know what you mean by 'choice'. I think you're playing word games again. I think you're intentionally conflating 'deciding to believe that an entity called god exists' and 'deciding to follow god'.

I mean, in order for me to choose to follow/love/pray/thank him, I kinda need to know he EXISTS, right? How does it help for me to just pretend that I know that he exists, thereby requiring me to pretend to know what exactly I'm following, requiring me to pretend to love him, requiring me to pretend to know what the hell it is I'm thanking him for.

Long story short - exactly how would knowledge of his actual existence reduce my ability to exercise my free will in choosing to follow, love, pray, and thank him?

"When we landed on the moon, that was the point where god should have come up and said 'hello'. Because if you invent some creatures, put them on the blue one and they make it to the grey one, you f**king turn up and say 'well done'."

Is this like a trinity thing, god is the food the restaurant and the owner all different. but all the same.

i suk at analogies ....or is it a metaphor???

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some skepisms, 1. "I have not seen God. I have felt the invisible presence"2. What if there is a rock in the middle of a road, a blind person is speeding towards it, ...they say that they can't see it. Would you recommend him to keep speeding?

God could make you his b**ch but doesn't. He gave you your freedom so that everyday, every minute, every moment in your life you could choose to believe/follow/love/pray/thank him.

That's the point, isn't it? That every minute, every moment, you have to love god.....or else suffer.

Tell me something, Lukvance. Which is better? Being a slave without the slightest idea that you ARE a slave and without even the concept that slavery exists......or "choosing" to serve someone in the full knowledge that the slightest slip, the moment you displease them, you will be off for eternal torment.

The only way you can "choose" to serve someone, is if there is no downside to refusal. THAT is a choice. When the choice is "serve me every moment, or suffer forever", where is the choice?

The ONLY person it benefits is god, who can have his ego stroked by thinking "I MUST be great, they CHOSE me!"

....and try to forget the colossal stick he carries to help people "choose".

Luk, are you prepared to take part in an experiment on belief with me? It will not require you to try to disbelieve your god, or believe in another god. Are you willing to stand by your assertion that belief is something we can choose to do?

This kind of freedom is desirable because without it you would be a slave. God want you to choose him freely he does not want you to be his slave.

Could you reword the whole "god wants you to choose him freely"? I guess I'd like you to be more explicit in what you mean by 'choose him'.

I'm losing track of the purpose of this thread. Perhaps that will clear it up for me.

God could make you his b**ch but doesn't. He gave you your freedom so that everyday, every minute, every moment in your life you could choose to believe/follow/love/pray/thank him. It is more rewarding for you to choose freely than to be forced to do it. It's a little bit like the dog that stays inside the house even if the door is open. He is free to leave your house but choose to stay in with you. As opposed to the door closed. He is not free to leave the house and the result is the same, he stays in with you. Do we agree that one case is "better" than the other one?

God cannot lie right, so if you had asked god when jdawg was a foetus, whether he would be a believe, and god answered no. Then how is that not removing jdawgs freewill. How is god giving jdawg any freedom to choose, he could not believe if he wanted too.

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We theists have no evidence for our beliefs. So no amount of rational evidence will dissuade us from those beliefs. - JCisall

It would be pretty piss poor brainwashing, if the victims knew they were brainwashed, wouldn't it? - Screwtape. 04/12/12

So let's say you own a restaurant (in this Example you are God and the restaurant is heaven) The difference between you and God is that God cannot lie. If he says there is something on the plate, there is something on the plate. Let's say I look around and see many people eating of plates that looks empty for me. i ask them what is going on and they assure me that there is something on the plate. I am free to choose, believe in the restaurant manager and see what's in the plate or don't and leave the place. I would not want to pay the bill and will be sad and hungry outside the restaurant where the party is going on. (just like heaven and hell)

First of all you can physically see that the plate is empty.

The rest is not comprehensible.

Hell is an eternal fire. Unless the restaurant closes you can always go back in and try the empty plate. There is no returning from hell.

I think you've had too much FALSE DOCTRINE!

You believe in a cruel God that makes you a cruel man!

You forgot that there is no time in heaven or hell. So "go back" doesn't make sense. Have you ever hit yourself on one of those sliding glass door? You couldn't physically see it but it was still there.

No disputing a belief in a cruel god or for being a cruel man!

I have always been able to physically see the glass doors. I am not a bird. Glass bends light. You were not talking about Heaven and hell, it was a restaurant.

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when you change the way you look at things, the things you look at change