This article is an example of incomplete and distorted facts, with an uneducated premises. LSD has never been a cure for alcoholism, and just because you have or do use it does not preclude alcoholism. The germ of this idea is founded upon the fact that LSD was used during the 1950s to aid alcoholics who wanted to quit in treatment centers in Canada to overcome their addiction; in other words, to give the alcoholic the perspective necessary to overcome his problem. It was very successful, and there were papers and books written that documented case studies and general results. I own several books on the subject, and have read fairly extensively on the subject, as LSD was and is my favorite recreational drug. (This is not an admission of continued use.) As LSD became more politically incorrect, due in large part to irresponsible misuse, the results of treatment based on LSD became discredited academically by vested medical and political interests. I'm not suggesting that such a thing could ever happen today, but in the '50s and '60s, the genuine research into LSD was discontinued and substituted with a resistance to scientific evaluation based on facts. The research at the time demonstrated a very successful treatment, with long-lasting results, not 100% effective, as no treatment is or can be, but so significant as to indicate that LSD works when the subject wants it to, and with a low recidivism rate. My books are in Virginia, or I would refer to them in order to pass along more information. But my point is that the article assumes that an LSD user won't be an alcoholic, while ignoring the source and truth of the matter.

Never abdicate your critical thinking skills!!

Gone are the days we stopped to decide where we should go, we just ride...

Bill Wilson, co-founder of AA, participated in some LSD experiments in the 50's and he found that it wasn't quite right for him. If my memory serves me, I think Bill was seeking treatment for very severe depression. That particular event is mentioned in a book about the history of AA, I can't recall the title though.

Thanks, RiverRat, for reposting to the proper forum, and including the link to the article about treatment. Actually the article I referenced was the one in the news section. Your article was a lot more responsible in the approach it took to the subject.

As with anything, including Bill Wilson's experience, the perspective has to be right and the will has to be there. It is true that LSD therapy cannot work for everyone.

Einstein said that everyone has genius, that a fish would be considered ignorant if required to climb a tree (this is a mangled re-interpretation, but the point can be discerned). The point being applied in general to all things, but to bring it home, specifically to music, as this is a music forum: there is nothing that anyone else has done that you can't do, whether Mozart, Bach, Garcia, Miles Davis, Ornette Coleman, (substitute any genius you care to), that you cannot also do. You just have to achieve a similar perspective. Every musical, scientific, mathematical or philosophical achievement has been made by achieving the perspective to accomplish it. So if you can achieve a similar perspective you can achieve similar results. If you don't understand something that someone else does, or not in a way that someone else does, the difference is in the perspective. Perspective is made up of education and point of view and interpretation.

I hope this helps some become better at what they are trying to do. Musically, and in life, your perspective will determine what you accomplish and how you accept others with different views. Goethe said "There but for the grace of g-d go I", when he encountered a drunk in the gutter. That is also true of us, in our encounters in life.

Peace

Gone are the days we stopped to decide where we should go, we just ride...

Well... I've been in the NA revolving door program for about five years now.

I've done acid a lot, and it hasn't cured me of shit. lol.

Though it has done a lot of good for me in that it has opened up doors to spirituality that I probably wouldn't have taken the initiative to open up via more natural avenues otherwise. But maybe it was all the trauma that did that. I don't fuckin' know.

Low dose trips and high dose trips haven't cured my fucked up ego patterns or my addiction. They've allowed me to glimpse my own perspective in an objective way (and it's pretty fucked), but they haven't done anything about changing that perspective. That takes work.

Again, doing acid will not solve your problems. Focusing on the solution to your problems with the aid of LSD will achieve results. You are the captain of the ship, and where you take it is up to you, as is how you get where you are going. LSD is an excellent tool to helping you see the problem and the solution from a birdseye view. Does it require work? You betcha! But an objective can better be obtained with a clear focus on the problem and the solution. LSD can help you achieve the perspective to understand the problem and solution better, or perhaps just differently, than you otherwise might. It is not for everyone, and not everyone can take it and use it effectively.

LSD --- the original little blue pill!

Gone are the days we stopped to decide where we should go, we just ride...

wolftigerrosebud wrote:Well... I've been in the NA revolving door program for about five years now.

I've done acid a lot, and it hasn't cured me of shit. lol.

Though it has done a lot of good for me in that it has opened up doors to spirituality that I probably wouldn't have taken the initiative to open up via more natural avenues otherwise. But maybe it was all the trauma that did that. I don't fuckin' know.

Low dose trips and high dose trips haven't cured my fucked up ego patterns or my addiction. They've allowed me to glimpse my own perspective in an objective way (and it's pretty fucked), but they haven't done anything about changing that perspective. That takes work.

I hear ya man. I was strung out for a good ten years, and also took a lot of acid and mushrooms. When I dosed I would see what I was doing and how it was fucking up my life, and get that strong feeling that I was going the wrong way. This would give me a renewed resolve to clean up my act, but it never stuck. Funny thing is, I've been clean about a year and a half now. I go to some meetings occasionally, often times I will leave there in a worse space than when I went in. There's just as much dysfunction in the rooms as there is elsewhere. I guess I came to the place where enough was enough, and I was either going to get clean or I wasn't... And when I did, it was a far more difficult process than simply eating a few doses and having a "come to Jesus" moment.

The idea of LSD being a cure for any problem is kinda silly. I used to think (before I had a bit of personal experience) that LSD was this magical thing that might give some kind of deeper knowledge or insight into things. But now I'm of the opinion that it just makes you prone to delusions, more than anything. It can give you a really weird, and possibly really fun time, can make music 1000% more magical, etc. but to think of it as some magical thing with any immediate practical utility is rather misguided.

The only practical thing you might gain, which you don't need a drug for, is the window to your psychology. I think a relatively common experience is to have moments on it where people try and rethink their life, plan to make changes, etc, but that's not necessarily the real lesson in itself. The real lesson can come from the exaggeration in your normal thought patterns, that those thoughts that you must change things (even though you cannot) are irrational. If your self-talk is all about beating yourself up, thinking you're not good enough as you are, then the lesson is not that you have to feed those irrational, masochistic thought patterns and try to go out and change your behaviors, but that the thought patterns themselves are irrational (and always born out of some early life experience). Once you get the trauma of your own early history sorted out, it's amazing how much freer and happier you can become, and how you will gracefully and effortlessly shrug off bad habits. That doesn't come in a pill though, and takes curiosity, lots of effort, and possibly the help of a good therapist.

Yeah dude, that's a very good point. Taking acid definitely makes people more prone to delusion.

Our brains are literally not meant to go there. It's cheating to get where other people go via meditation and spirituality and lifetimes spent practicing, and we pay the price for it by letting little pieces of our sanity slip away.

I mean, I know a guy who took something like 15 stamps. I saw him when he was in the psych ward, had a big bloody hole in the middle of his forehead. He tried to open up a third eye in his face. There is such a thing as "20 minutes too long".

But now, I'm going to meetings every day. Hanging with my friends, who are clean, almost every day. Reaching out to people. Working steps. Meditating an hour each morning. Living life normally, accepting the ebbs and flows. That is more personally profound to me than any of the realizations I had while tripping, as incredible as many of them were, right down to total literally-pissing-myself ego death experiences with 1000+ mics.

Also @Tony, meetings have a lot of fucked up shit going on in there. They're basically a religious program, and there's an attitude, especially in AA, that if you don't believe their way, you'll come around eventually.

But there are also good things. The old-timers have already learned to filter out stupid opinions and preachy judgmental bullshit and just hang on to the positive. It's not fair to assume that those of us without 20 years staying clean can just jump right in, so it's not like it's something to feel bad about. But different meetings have different cultures, and in recovery there's always going to be assholes. That's life. But don't let the assholes run you out of the rooms. It's not to say you should be in meetings or something like that -- that's not at all what I'm saying. That's for you to determine; not trying to overstep my bounds. I'm just saying don't let the reason you leave be because some jackasses are dumping their shit on the meetings and trying to force their beliefs down your throat.

wolftigerrosebud wrote:Also @Tony, meetings have a lot of fucked up shit going on in there. They're basically a religious program, and there's an attitude, especially in AA, that if you don't believe their way, you'll come around eventually.

But there are also good things. The old-timers have already learned to filter out stupid opinions and preachy judgmental bullshit and just hang on to the positive. It's not fair to assume that those of us without 20 years staying clean can just jump right in, so it's not like it's something to feel bad about. But different meetings have different cultures, and in recovery there's always going to be assholes. That's life. But don't let the assholes run you out of the rooms. It's not to say you should be in meetings or something like that -- that's not at all what I'm saying. That's for you to determine; not trying to overstep my bounds. I'm just saying don't let the reason you leave be because some jackasses are dumping their shit on the meetings and trying to force their beliefs down your throat.

Yeah... I'm kind of on a quest to find the perfect meeting, one with minimal dogma and a lack of "Head Honcho, it's this way or the highway" types. What's funny is, you'll also find plenty of preachers and know it all's and the like on the Rainbow trail, or at a jam band festival. Same kind of folks and behaviors were talking about, just a different set of beliefs. Taking anything too far to the extreme is never a great thing in my opinion. Anyways, I'm hitting a new (for me) meeting tonight, it's called "Staying Alive Under 25", kind of a youth in recovery type thing. I'm optimistic!

The first time I dropped acid I realized how much I didn't like other drugs.

But when you're tripping everything seems so easy--how am I supposed to preserve that inspiration a few months later? I can't keep dropping acid over and over again.

I experienced the most beautiful Stella Blue I've ever heard at a DSO show after getting these fantastic tabs. I felt the complete weight of every note--Stella is the perfect song to do that with. But even that experience, religious it may be, fades. But I guess that's exactly it. The song was Stella Blue, after all.

A few things I've learned to be true over the years:People are incredibly complexandEveryone has different mental health/mental abilities

This is where this thread takes me: Each person is genetically half their mother and half their father. Add in the effects that their upbringing in society will instill in them, habits, behaviors, wounds, ways of thinking or being. Then add thirty years of life experience. Each individual has a highly colorful, complex, unique history.

Secondly, consider a person's tendencies toward mental wellness or mental unwellness. The way I have had this described to me is that some people have tendencies towards less or more healthy mental states than others, just as some people have tendencies towards less or more healthy digestive states than others. This factor would be a major outcome decider in the theory that LSD can be beneficial or hurtful in a specific human.

The way science tests things is with a control group where maybe one test is decidedly positive, one test is decidedly negative, and then you have your variables in the group that could fall any where between the negative or positive, or smack dab ON the negative or positive. I do not see any way that something as variable as a person's behavior, thinking and health could be tested with a drug such as LSD. Or perhaps it can be tested with reliable results, but the results have come out mostly negative? I don't know. I do know, my bent leans towards LSD not being a good thing if you are measuring a human being's entire state of health, and if you are considering simply mental health, I would be considerably prone to vote that LSD would generally make the people with tendencies towards mental wellness AND towards mental unwellness, much more mentally unwell.

Personal experience has shown me that I am a person that easily slips into a mode where fantasy and reality no longer have a distinct dividing line. I only dosed maybe 5 single hits in a lifetime and this happened. Very sensitive being, very prone to fantasy these days. But like I say, everyone is different. The idea that LSD is a cure for alcoholism does not hold true for me, although I have never considered myself alcoholic. It almost seems like you'd be going backwards though...don't you seek more clarity when you get sober from alcohol? And taking LSD gives false clarity, simply because the general society we live in (to be able to drive, hold down a job, take care of self and family) requires a level of mental clarity that LSD does not provide. I agree, there are places our minds are not necessarily meant to go, and meditation and a lifetime of spirituality are much healthier alternatives, not to mention you rarely run the risk of spending your life in a psych ward taking those routes, but by dropping hits of acid the risk is very very real and very very high, correct me if I'm wrong on that one.

one thing I would not overlook as well is dark and light//good and evil//shadow and (whatever its opposite might be)

drug use eventually took me to a dark place, allowed me to see my shadow side. Some people are attracted to this side of themselves, I generally run like hell. I prefer the lighter side of life. But I definitely understand how some would be intrigued by it and not be as threatened by it as I have been. To each his own. I think that my mom also prefers the lighter side of life, and it got to a point where if I wanted to keep my mom in my life, it was required that I not dwell in that shadow-seeking behavior so much, because it scared her away. I love her so much, I do what I can to keep her as close as possible while still being able to explore some of the odder parts of myself. But those very dark places, I believe, aren't necessary for a full and happy life. At least for me, like I say it might be different for others.