I'm responding to this old post, found in the archives, while checking into the wives and children of Attila the Hun.

Does anyone have an inkling as to the descendants of Attila The Hun?Here is what I found, but I am very sceptical about it, especially considering thatthe name of Attila's daughter is unknown.1-Attila The Hun (406-453)sp: Julia Grata Honoria Of Rome (-)2-Daughter of Attila (-)sp: Ardaric Gepidae (-)3-King Elemund Of The Ostrogoths (-)4-Gepiade Of The Ostrogoths (-)sp: King Wacho (-)5-Waldrada (529-)sp: Duke Garibaldi Of Bavaria (536-592)6-Duke Tassilon I (558-609)7-Duke Garibald II (608-625)6-Romilde (abt 565-610)sp: Duke Gisulf II (abt 552-610)7-Lady Geila (abt 583-bef 673)

______________________________------------------------------

Remember me? I wanted to know about the alleged daughter of Theodoric, raised by Flavius Aetius, in the movie Attila. (Which is still a favorite movie.) Eventually it emerged that she was imaginary.

OK, now remember Honoria, sister to the emperor? She existed - but Attila never married her. Not in the movie, and not in real life. This is the third or fourth time I've encountered this idea tonight. Honoria got into trouble for plotting with her butler against her brother. She was sent to Pulcheria's nunnery or whatever in Constantinople. She asked Attila to rescue her and offered half the Western Empire as her dowry. Attila used this as a pretext to invade teh Western Empire. Honoria was shipped back to Rome, maybe married to an elderly senator, and never heard from again.

Another one I keep running into - a notion that Ildico was Attila's fourth wife and bore one of his sons. Did he marry more than one Ildico? Ildico was the slave girl he had just married when he had his fatal nose bleed. They had no children- unless such children preceded the marriage by some years.

I'm outright confused about Ardaric Gepidae Guy. He turns up in more than one place in the history. He is variously supposed to be a member of Attila's court, a king who defeated Attila's sons, and a descendant of ATtila many generations down teh road and founder of the Lombard line?

I had wondered why so many of Attila's wives had German names. Heh, heh,heh.

Anyway, I have encountered this story several times tonight, but this is thefirst time I've encountered such specifics.

Is tehre any chance those Burgundians and Franks had their stories of royalmadness and mayhem mixed up?

The Burgundian royal line was mad, and extremely bloodthirsty. TheBurgundian king hacked his entire family to death and threw them down awell, except for two girls, who escaped. One of them was Clotilde, who hadjoined a convent. THe Frankish prince Clovis kidnapped/ rescued her, withher obvious collusion, and married her. She was quite an interestingcharacter in her own right. I think she may have toured the kingdom andleft a wake of towns in flames, in order to avenge whatever her currentobsession was, and she appears to have never dropped an obsession. Theyhad four sons, who grew up and fought for Clovis's former empire. Two ofthe sons somehow got ahold of the two small sons of a third son. One ofthem hacked the two small boys to death with a sword in front of the other,screaming incoherently about it being his business. Subsequently theentire Merovingian line became plagued by episodes of madness, andultimately became unable to rule. They were fond of marrying mad women,too, like slave women who in time, for instance, tied a daughter betweentwo horses to be drowned in the river.

Post by Dora Smithx. ATTILA "THE HUN" & "The Scourge", King of Huns [9] 437-453had several wives: =1 Arykan; =2 Helche (Kreka); =3 Kriemhilt; =4Ildiko (Hildiko); =5 Gundrun [note: a German myth says that hisBurgundian wife, Gundrun, murdered her twin sons, Erpe & Eiti,begotten by him, and served their hearts for Attila to eat]I had wondered why so many of Attila's wives had German names. Heh, heh,heh.Anyway, I have encountered this story several times tonight, but this is thefirst time I've encountered such specifics.Is tehre any chance those Burgundians and Franks had their stories of royalmadness and mayhem mixed up?The Burgundian royal line was mad, and extremely bloodthirsty. TheBurgundian king hacked his entire family to death and threw them down awell, except for two girls, who escaped. One of them was Clotilde, who hadjoined a convent. THe Frankish prince Clovis kidnapped/ rescued her, withher obvious collusion, and married her. She was quite an interestingcharacter in her own right. I think she may have toured the kingdom andleft a wake of towns in flames, in order to avenge whatever her currentobsession was, and she appears to have never dropped an obsession. Theyhad four sons, who grew up and fought for Clovis's former empire. Two ofthe sons somehow got ahold of the two small sons of a third son. One ofthem hacked the two small boys to death with a sword in front of the other,screaming incoherently about it being his business. Subsequently theentire Merovingian line became plagued by episodes of madness, andultimately became unable to rule. They were fond of marrying mad women,too, like slave women who in time, for instance, tied a daughter betweentwo horses to be drowned in the river.Alternatively, was this Gundrun or Gunrun a Burgundian princess?Yours,Dora SmithAustin, Texas

Post by Dora Smithwell, except for two girls, who escaped. One of them was Clotilde, who hadjoined a convent. THe Frankish prince Clovis kidnapped/ rescued her, withher obvious collusion, and married her. She was quite an interestingcharacter in her own right. I think she may have toured the kingdom andleft a wake of towns in flames, in order to avenge whatever her currentobsession was, and she appears to have never dropped an obsession. Theyhad four sons, who grew up and fought for Clovis's former empire.

No, Chlodweg's eldest son Theodoric (Thierry) was not Chrotechildis'.

JF Blanc

PS: A good site about Merovingians (and which will help you to brushup your French) was Pierre Coste's(http://users.skynet.be/pierre.coste), but it seems to be offline fornow.

Now, according to this very old document written by a Roman diplomat whovisited Attila's court, Escam was the name of the father of a girl whoAttila was headed to Escam's village to marry. The document does not namethe girl.

Kriemhilt and Gunrun show up in most genealogies of Attila's family thatI've seen, as separate individuals.

I don't quite have all the information yet, but examining the Germanicversions of her story make it clear that Kriemhilt(Chrenchildis)(Grimhild)(Kriemhilc) and Gunrun (Gudrun) were the sameperson, and she was a Burgundian princess. Her brothers were three kingsof Burgundy or else a king and two princes. In the stories, atleast. Inreal life, her brother the king lived at a different time!

Attila apparently had fairly close contact with the Burgundians, as well asthe Franks; he participated fully in their dynastic politics, took hostagesfrom among them, and that sort of thing. He may ahve conquered theBurgundian territory.

There are several very different stories concerning her. She is the one whoallegedly killed her two sons and fed them to Attila. In all versionsthat I've found, goings on in the Burgundian royal family rivalled thegoings on at the time of the early Merovingian kings. Actually, the storyis based on them. It puts famous and notorious kings from slightlydiffernet points in history together and has them knowing and having contactwith each other.

All versions of what transpired with her as Attila's wife have Attila andwhatever sons he had by her caught in the middle of Burgundian royal familydysfunction. She was variously trying to get revenge on her family, whoshe tricked into coming to Attila's court, trying to get this and that atAttila's expense, from revenge on him for something that went on with herfamily, to the recovery of her first husband's treasure. In one case,Attila is greedy for some kind of family treasure, and she tries to getrevenge on him by killing his two small sons and feeding them to Attila andhis guests. Then she kills Attila, and then she tries to kill herself, andis rescued by some other king and lives happily ever after!

Atleast one version of Ildico's role in this could also have been part ofthis. Apparently it was later in history as myths about both Attila andBurgundian royalty began to grow that the notion that Ildico killed Attilafor revenge for whatever he had done to her family took shape. In someplaces, she actually merged with the Burgundian princess in the popularmind.

http://28.1911encyclopedia.org/K/KR/KRIEMHILD.htm

"According to Jordanes (c. 49), who takes his information from thecontemporary and trustworthy account of Priscus, Attila died o: a violenthemorrhage at night, as he lay beside a girl namec Ildico (i.e. O. H. Ger.Hildiko). The story got abroad that he lad perished by the hand'of a womanin revenge for her relations lain by him; according to some (e.g. Saxo Poetaand the Qued-inburg chronicle) it was her father whom she revenged; but whenthe treacherous overthrow of the Burgundians by Attila lad become a themefor epic poets, she figured as a Burgundian mncess, and her act as done inrevenge for her brothers. Now he name Hildiko is the diminutive of Hilda orHild, which again in accordance with a custom common enoughmay have jeenused as an abbreviation of Grimhild (cf. Hildr for Bryn-hildr). It has beensuggested. (Symons, Heldensage, p. 55) that when the legend of the overthrowof the Burgundians, which .ook place in 437, became attached to that of thedeath of Attila ^453), Hild, the supposed sister of the Burgundian kings,was dentified with the daemonic Grimhild, the sister of the mythicalNibelung brothers, and thus helped the process by which the Nibelung mythbecame fused with the historical story of the all of the Burgundian kingdom.The older story, according to which Grimhild slays her husband Attila inrevenge for her Drothers, is preserved in the Norse tradition, thoughGrimhild's Dart is played by Gudrun, a change probably due to the fact,mentioned above, that the name Grimhild still retained in the north itssinister significance. The name of Grimhild is trans-'erred to Gudrun'smother, the " wise wife," a semi-daemonic igure, who brews the potion thatmakes Sigurd forget his love :or Brunhild and his plighted troth. In theNibelungenlied, lowever, the primitive supremacy of the blood-tie has givenplace to the more modern idea of the supremacy of the passion of love, aridKriemhild marries Attila (Etzel) in order to compass the death of herbrothers, in revenge for the murder of Siegfried. Theodor Abeling, who isdisposed to reject or minimize the mythical origins, further suggests aconfusion of the story of Attiia's wife Ildico with that of the murder ofSigimund the Burgundian by the sons of Chrothildis, wife of Clovis."

The Germanic stories mention Kreka, a first wife who these stories ahve deadat the time when Gudrun/ Grimhild married Attila. These are versions thatwere written at later dates by Christian people; so they don't really tellus that Attila was not married to Kriemhild and Kreka at the same time.

If Kriemhelt married Attila after the death of Kreka, this must havehappened relatively late. Now, I think that the notion that Attila marriedher after the death of Kreka could be a Christianization of the story. Notwanting to say he marrie dmore than one woman at a time.

I am curious about the Roman envoy's report in 448. This is the year hevisited Attila's court. Exactly one wife, Kreka, and three sons, werepresent.

I think envoy reported that Attila's eldest son was the governor of a wideterritory; not clear if this son was one of the three sons who dined withAttila and the Roman envoys. But I'm not clear that that is who reportedtha tthe oldest son was governor of a wide territory.

Now, Attila died in 453. He should reasonably have been marrying by atleast434, when he and his brother took the throne, and having children sincethen.

Post by Dora SmithKriemhilt and Gunrun show up in most genealogies of Attila's family thatI've seen, as separate individuals.I don't quite have all the information yet, but examining the Germanicversions of her story make it clear that Kriemhilt(Chrenchildis)(Grimhild)(Kriemhilc) and Gunrun (Gudrun) were the sameperson, and she was a Burgundian princess. Her brothers were three kingsof Burgundy or else a king and two princes. In the stories, atleast. Inreal life, her brother the king lived at a different time!Attila apparently had fairly close contact with the Burgundians, as well asthe Franks; he participated fully in their dynastic politics, took hostagesfrom among them, and that sort of thing. He may ahve conquered theBurgundian territory.There are several very different stories concerning her. She is the one whoallegedly killed her two sons and fed them to Attila. In all versionsthat I've found, goings on in the Burgundian royal family rivalled thegoings on at the time of the early Merovingian kings. Actually, the storyis based on them. It puts famous and notorious kings from slightlydiffernet points in history together and has them knowing and having contactwith each other.All versions of what transpired with her as Attila's wife have Attila andwhatever sons he had by her caught in the middle of Burgundian royal familydysfunction. She was variously trying to get revenge on her family, whoshe tricked into coming to Attila's court, trying to get this and that atAttila's expense, from revenge on him for something that went on with herfamily, to the recovery of her first husband's treasure. In one case,Attila is greedy for some kind of family treasure, and she tries to getrevenge on him by killing his two small sons and feeding them to Attila andhis guests. Then she kills Attila, and then she tries to kill herself, andis rescued by some other king and lives happily ever after!Atleast one version of Ildico's role in this could also have been part ofthis. Apparently it was later in history as myths about both Attila andBurgundian royalty began to grow that the notion that Ildico killed Attilafor revenge for whatever he had done to her family took shape. In someplaces, she actually merged with the Burgundian princess in the popularmind.http://28.1911encyclopedia.org/K/KR/KRIEMHILD.htm"According to Jordanes (c. 49), who takes his information from thecontemporary and trustworthy account of Priscus, Attila died o: a violenthemorrhage at night, as he lay beside a girl namec Ildico (i.e. O. H. Ger.Hildiko). The story got abroad that he lad perished by the hand'of a womanin revenge for her relations lain by him; according to some (e.g. Saxo Poetaand the Qued-inburg chronicle) it was her father whom she revenged; but whenthe treacherous overthrow of the Burgundians by Attila lad become a themefor epic poets, she figured as a Burgundian mncess, and her act as done inrevenge for her brothers. Now he name Hildiko is the diminutive of Hilda orHild, which again in accordance with a custom common enoughmay have jeenused as an abbreviation of Grimhild (cf. Hildr for Bryn-hildr). It has beensuggested. (Symons, Heldensage, p. 55) that when the legend of the overthrowof the Burgundians, which .ook place in 437, became attached to that of thedeath of Attila ^453), Hild, the supposed sister of the Burgundian kings,was dentified with the daemonic Grimhild, the sister of the mythicalNibelung brothers, and thus helped the process by which the Nibelung mythbecame fused with the historical story of the all of the Burgundian kingdom.The older story, according to which Grimhild slays her husband Attila inrevenge for her Drothers, is preserved in the Norse tradition, thoughGrimhild's Dart is played by Gudrun, a change probably due to the fact,mentioned above, that the name Grimhild still retained in the north itssinister significance. The name of Grimhild is trans-'erred to Gudrun'smother, the " wise wife," a semi-daemonic igure, who brews the potion thatmakes Sigurd forget his love :or Brunhild and his plighted troth. In theNibelungenlied, lowever, the primitive supremacy of the blood-tie has givenplace to the more modern idea of the supremacy of the passion of love, aridKriemhild marries Attila (Etzel) in order to compass the death of herbrothers, in revenge for the murder of Siegfried. Theodor Abeling, who isdisposed to reject or minimize the mythical origins, further suggests aconfusion of the story of Attiia's wife Ildico with that of the murder ofSigimund the Burgundian by the sons of Chrothildis, wife of Clovis."http://www.timelessmyths.com/norse/norseminor.htmlhttp://www.timelessmyths.com/norse/nibelungs.html#Revengehttp://www.timelessmyths.com/norse/nibelungs.htmlhttp://www.timelessmyths.com/norse/german.html#AttilaThe Germanic stories mention Kreka, a first wife who these stories ahve deadat the time when Gudrun/ Grimhild married Attila. These are versions thatwere written at later dates by Christian people; so they don't really tellus that Attila was not married to Kriemhild and Kreka at the same time.Yours,Dora SmithAustin, Texas

Post by wjhonsonThings like this need documentation of *some sort*Like maybehttps://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ardaric

As we can see Ardaric had neither parents, spouses, nor children, of which we have any record whatsoever.So the lines breaks there.

Dear Will, see https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Descent_from_antiquity#Attila_the_Hun_to_Charlemagne in short Settipani mentions an old tradition that one of Ardaric's wifes was Attila's daughter and he gives it some crediblity and he conjectures that the later Gepid kings and nobles may have descended from that marriage.

Post by wjhonsonThings like this need documentation of *some sort*Like maybehttps://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ardaric

As we can see Ardaric had neither parents, spouses, nor children, of which we have any record whatsoever.So the lines breaks there.

Dear Will, see https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Descent_from_antiquity#Attila_the_Hun_to_Charlemagne in short Settipani mentions an old tradition that one of Ardaric's wifes was Attila's daughter and he gives it some crediblity and he conjectures that the later Gepid kings and nobles may have descended from that marriage.

Settipani had a lot of time on his hands to give credit to all sorts of spurious and download ridiculous claims.

You would think, if the Gepids could trace their ancestry to Attila, it might have been mentioned by someone before the 21st century.

Post by wjhonsonThings like this need documentation of *some sort*Like maybehttps://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ardaric

As we can see Ardaric had neither parents, spouses, nor children, of which we have any record whatsoever.So the lines breaks there.

Dear Will, see https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Descent_from_antiquity#Attila_the_Hun_to_Charlemagne in short Settipani mentions an old tradition that one of Ardaric's wifes was Attila's daughter and he gives it some crediblity and he conjectures that the later Gepid kings and nobles may have descended from that marriage.

Settipani had a lot of time on his hands to give credit to all sorts of spurious and download ridiculous claims.You would think, if the Gepids could trace their ancestry to Attila, it might have been mentioned by someone before the 21st century.

I will go further and state that not only don't we know that Ardaric was *married* at all to anyone, or had any children. But we also do not know that Attila himself has any daughters whatsoever.

So that's an awfully hard row to hoe, but you're welcome to try harder.

Post by wjhonsonThings like this need documentation of *some sort*Like maybehttps://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ardaric

As we can see Ardaric had neither parents, spouses, nor children, of which we have any record whatsoever.So the lines breaks there.

Dear Will, see https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Descent_from_antiquity#Attila_the_Hun_to_Charlemagne in short Settipani mentions an old tradition that one of Ardaric's wifes was Attila's daughter and he gives it some crediblity and he conjectures that the later Gepid kings and nobles may have descended from that marriage.

Settipani had a lot of time on his hands to give credit to all sorts of spurious and download ridiculous claims.You would think, if the Gepids could trace their ancestry to Attila, it might have been mentioned by someone before the 21st century.

Please let's remember Settipani is a respected genealogist among the academy.

Post by wjhonsonThings like this need documentation of *some sort*Like maybehttps://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ardaric

As we can see Ardaric had neither parents, spouses, nor children, of which we have any record whatsoever.So the lines breaks there.

Dear Will, see https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Descent_from_antiquity#Attila_the_Hun_to_Charlemagne in short Settipani mentions an old tradition that one of Ardaric's wifes was Attila's daughter and he gives it some crediblity and he conjectures that the later Gepid kings and nobles may have descended from that marriage.

Settipani had a lot of time on his hands to give credit to all sorts of spurious and download ridiculous claims.You would think, if the Gepids could trace their ancestry to Attila, it might have been mentioned by someone before the 21st century.

Please let's remember Settipani is a respected genealogist among the academy.

There is no academy.Settipani is a person who wrote a book.He is subject to praise and ridicule the same as any other person.

Writing a book does not make you a respected genealogist.Having worthwhile and cogent arguments is far more useful.

Post by Paulo CanedoDear Will, see https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Descent_from_antiquity#Attila_the_Hun_to_Charlemagnein short Settipani mentions an old tradition that one of Ardaric's wifes wasAttila's daughter and he gives it some crediblity and he conjectures that thelater Gepid kings and nobles may have descended from that marriage.

In general, Wikipedia is not the best source for genealogy, but this page in particular is of very low quality.

Post by Dora SmithI'm responding to this old post, found in the archives, while checking into the wives and children of Attila the Hun.

Does anyone have an inkling as to the descendants of Attila The Hun?Here is what I found, but I am very sceptical about it, especially considering thatthe name of Attila's daughter is unknown.1-Attila The Hun (406-453)sp: Julia Grata Honoria Of Rome (-)2-Daughter of Attila (-)sp: Ardaric Gepidae (-)3-King Elemund Of The Ostrogoths (-)4-Gepiade Of The Ostrogoths (-)sp: King Wacho (-)5-Waldrada (529-)sp: Duke Garibaldi Of Bavaria (536-592)6-Duke Tassilon I (558-609)7-Duke Garibald II (608-625)6-Romilde (abt 565-610)sp: Duke Gisulf II (abt 552-610)7-Lady Geila (abt 583-bef 673)

______________________________------------------------------Remember me? I wanted to know about the alleged daughter of Theodoric, raised by Flavius Aetius, in the movie Attila. (Which is still a favorite movie.) Eventually it emerged that she was imaginary.OK, now remember Honoria, sister to the emperor? She existed - but Attila never married her. Not in the movie, and not in real life. This is the third or fourth time I've encountered this idea tonight. Honoria got into trouble for plotting with her butler against her brother. She was sent to Pulcheria's nunnery or whatever in Constantinople. She asked Attila to rescue her and offered half the Western Empire as her dowry. Attila used this as a pretext to invade teh Western Empire. Honoria was shipped back to Rome, maybe married to an elderly senator, and never heard from again.Another one I keep running into - a notion that Ildico was Attila's fourth wife and bore one of his sons. Did he marry more than one Ildico? Ildico was the slave girl he had just married when he had his fatal nose bleed. They had no children- unless such children preceded the marriage by some years.I'm outright confused about Ardaric Gepidae Guy. He turns up in more than one place in the history. He is variously supposed to be a member of Attila's court, a king who defeated Attila's sons, and a descendant of ATtila many generations down teh road and founder of the Lombard line?Say, do I correctly understand that N'kara did not exist, either?Yours,Dora SmithAustin, Texas

You have forgotten his last wife , the Queen of Burgundy .. Kriemhild , which married him after the death /murder of her late husband King Siegfried of Xanten and Burgundy - The Rhineland . The Rhineland was first roman Empire -West -Roman Empire and later French Kingdom - Burgundy 2--- this is a celtic ,slawic ,french story ..

Post by Dora SmithI'm responding to this old post, found in the archives, while checking into the wives and children of Attila the Hun.

Does anyone have an inkling as to the descendants of Attila The Hun?Here is what I found, but I am very sceptical about it, especially considering thatthe name of Attila's daughter is unknown.1-Attila The Hun (406-453)sp: Julia Grata Honoria Of Rome (-)2-Daughter of Attila (-)sp: Ardaric Gepidae (-)3-King Elemund Of The Ostrogoths (-)4-Gepiade Of The Ostrogoths (-)sp: King Wacho (-)5-Waldrada (529-)sp: Duke Garibaldi Of Bavaria (536-592)6-Duke Tassilon I (558-609)7-Duke Garibald II (608-625)6-Romilde (abt 565-610)sp: Duke Gisulf II (abt 552-610)7-Lady Geila (abt 583-bef 673)

______________________________------------------------------Remember me? I wanted to know about the alleged daughter of Theodoric, raised by Flavius Aetius, in the movie Attila. (Which is still a favorite movie.) Eventually it emerged that she was imaginary.OK, now remember Honoria, sister to the emperor? She existed - but Attila never married her. Not in the movie, and not in real life. This is the third or fourth time I've encountered this idea tonight. Honoria got into trouble for plotting with her butler against her brother. She was sent to Pulcheria's nunnery or whatever in Constantinople. She asked Attila to rescue her and offered half the Western Empire as her dowry. Attila used this as a pretext to invade teh Western Empire. Honoria was shipped back to Rome, maybe married to an elderly senator, and never heard from again.Another one I keep running into - a notion that Ildico was Attila's fourth wife and bore one of his sons. Did he marry more than one Ildico? Ildico was the slave girl he had just married when he had his fatal nose bleed. They had no children- unless such children preceded the marriage by some years.I'm outright confused about Ardaric Gepidae Guy. He turns up in more than one place in the history. He is variously supposed to be a member of Attila's court, a king who defeated Attila's sons, and a descendant of ATtila many generations down teh road and founder of the Lombard line?Say, do I correctly understand that N'kara did not exist, either?Yours,Dora SmithAustin, Texas

You have forgotten his last wife , the Queen of Burgundy .. Kriemhild , which married him after the death /murder of her late husband King Siegfried of Xanten and Burgundy - The Rhineland . The Rhineland was first roman Empire -West -Roman Empire and later French Kingdom - Burgundy 2--- this is a celtic ,slawic ,french story ..