Does your god do the same thing in each of those two circumstances, or different things?

Sorry, I thought I covered that the first time you asked. Same. I'm no prophet so that's my view, not God's.

So prayer changes nothing? Has no influence on god? What god wants to happen, will happen, regardless of our thoughts and wishes.

Does that extend to actions as well? If we take an action that goes against what god wants for us, will he "rebalance" the universe (for want of a better word) to get things back on track?

God only changes the person praying. All other "answers" to prayer are already set in motion before a person even plans to pray about them.

Hang on a minute. You appear now to be saying that god DOES take different actions if a person prays, or does not, by making changes within the person praying? Is that right? That god will do one thing to a person if they pray, but not do it if they do not?

God only changes the person praying. All other "answers" to prayer are already set in motion before a person even plans to pray about them.

Promoting this concept is a heinous crime against human potential. The act of prayer, in this sense, is nothing more than convincing oneself to obsequiously accept circumstances and be content with the world as it is - not to look to fix it. It's the justification of a lazy alternative - taking away the drive to seek change and to use creativity and initiative to find solutions. It's prayerful people saying to themselves: "Don't complain, don't worry, just accept it, God knows better, it's all for a reason, let God's will be done, Amen!"

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Luke 23:46: Father, into your hands I commit my spirit.

A perfectly evolved idea to dull humans into a frame of mind that clergy can exploit. Hell no! It's suffocatingly pathetic.

God only changes the person praying. All other "answers" to prayer are already set in motion before a person even plans to pray about them.

Promoting this concept is a heinous crime against human potential. The act of prayer, in this sense, is nothing more than convincing oneself to obsequiously accept circumstances and be content with the world as it is - not to look to fix it. It's the justification of a lazy alternative - taking away the drive to seek change and to use creativity and initiative to find solutions. It's prayerful people saying to themselves: "Don't complain, don't worry, just accept it, God knows better, it's all for a reason, let God's will be done, Amen!"

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Luke 23:46: Father, into your hands I commit my spirit.

A perfectly evolved idea to dull humans into a frame of mind that clergy can exploit. Hell no! It's suffocatingly pathetic.

I don't listen to clergy, so your point misses me. There is no benefit to being lazy. God does not answer prayers that don't need answering.Figuring out what God wants is hard work! Very very hard. First you have to humble yourself to ask. Then you have to humble yourself to what really needs to be done.Then you have to completely abandon your efforts to expect God to do what you ask.After you completely give up your ego involvement and surrender, only at that instant does He take care of the situation.It's pretty draining.

God does not answer prayers that don't need answering.Figuring out what God wants is hard work! Very very hard. First you have to humble yourself to ask. Then you have to humble yourself to what really needs to be done.Then you have to completely abandon your efforts to expect God to do what you ask.After you completely give up your ego involvement and surrender, only at that instant does He take care of the situation.It's pretty draining.

I can't really get my head round this. Are you saying that you have to ask god for something that he wants?

Then you have to completely abandon your efforts to expect God to do what you ask.

Well I don't think this is correct or fair - all I asked for was the truth, not for magic or healings. I repeatedly asked for faith - many times over - I remember the tears running down my face. Jesus did say:

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Matthew 7:7 Ask and it will be given to you; seek and you will find; knock and the door will be opened to you.

After you completely give up your ego involvement and surrender, only at that instant does He take care of the situation.It's pretty draining.

Well that's true - it is "draining". I'm here to tell you that it took many many years for me to recover from all the "draining", to regain my sense of self, restore my internal locus of control, rebuild my self-respect. I count myself lucky to have escaped. So many of my friends and family have fallen victim to the mass hysteria of the delusion, and are now trapped by false guilt and cruel lies - play-acting the outward signs of faith - trapped and diminished by fear.

Figuring out what God wants is hard work! Very very hard. First you have to humble yourself to ask. Then you have to humble yourself to what really needs to be done.Then you have to completely abandon your efforts to expect God to do what you ask.After you completely give up your ego involvement and surrender, only at that instant does He take care of the situation.It's pretty draining.

And not a particularly good way of managing things, either. Heck, if I run out of transcription jobs to type I just drop a quick e-mail to My supervisor and she gets back to Me with more work within a minute or two. If the clarinet section in the band is having trouble parsing the rhythms in a tricky passage, we wave at the Music Director and he walks us through it right then and there.

Why should mortals have to contort their brains and trash their own sanity and self-esteem in order to figure out what a god really, really wants?

There is no benefit to being lazy. God does not answer prayers that don't need answering.Figuring out what God wants is hard work! Very very hard. First you have to humble yourself to ask. Then you have to humble yourself to what really needs to be done.Then you have to completely abandon your efforts to expect God to do what you ask.After you completely give up your ego involvement and surrender, only at that instant does He take care of the situation.It's pretty draining.

But you've said that god does the same thing whether you pray for it or not - so all those lines make no sense - especially the one I bolded. Because if god does what he does regardless of our thoughts and prayers, you do not have to give up ANYTHING, do ANYTHING for god's will to happen. He does it regardless, you said.

There is no benefit to being lazy. God does not answer prayers that don't need answering.Figuring out what God wants is hard work! Very very hard. First you have to humble yourself to ask. Then you have to humble yourself to what really needs to be done.Then you have to completely abandon your efforts to expect God to do what you ask.After you completely give up your ego involvement and surrender, only at that instant does He take care of the situation.It's pretty draining.

But you've said that god does the same thing whether you pray for it or not - so all those lines make no sense - especially the one I bolded. Because if god does what he does regardless of our thoughts and prayers, you do not have to give up ANYTHING, do ANYTHING for god's will to happen. He does it regardless, you said. So I can make no sense of what you have said in those lines, sorry.

Well how would I KNOW if God does the same thing either way? I explain that my prayers were for my wife.She didn't pray, she got the benefit. This suggests that one doesn't have to pray to get God's help. As I said, I'm a lay person, not a prophet. I can't see into things before they happen, or see God workingwithout my request.

Every minute of life I get is a gift from God. Being thankful is better than not. Even If I don't give thanks continuously or ask for another minute.

Figuring out what God wants is hard work! Very very hard. First you have to humble yourself to ask. Then you have to humble yourself to what really needs to be done.Then you have to completely abandon your efforts to expect God to do what you ask.After you completely give up your ego involvement and surrender, only at that instant does He take care of the situation.It's pretty draining.

And not a particularly good way of managing things, either. Heck, if I run out of transcription jobs to type I just drop a quick e-mail to My supervisor and she gets back to Me with more work within a minute or two. If the clarinet section in the band is having trouble parsing the rhythms in a tricky passage, we wave at the Music Director and he walks us through it right then and there.

Why should mortals have to contort their brains and trash their own sanity and self-esteem in order to figure out what a god really, really wants?

You'll find that self-esteem as humanism sees it doesn't work. Drug lords have very high self-esteem. So do the Dictators of countries. They think very highly of themselves and are not suffering from low self esteem. You may know some very proud people. They think they are all that. Do you admire them?

Well that's true - it is "draining". I'm here to tell you that it took many many years for me to recover from all the "draining", to regain my sense of self, restore my internal locus of control, rebuild my self-respect. I count myself lucky to have escaped. So many of my friends and family have fallen victim to the mass hysteria of the delusion, and are now trapped by false guilt and cruel lies - play-acting the outward signs of faith - trapped and diminished by fear.

I do not disagree with your observations. There are leaders of churches that do not have a relationship with God and are as lost as other seekers. Perhaps even the majority of church leaders. Ad if they don't have an interactive relationship with God, they certainly can't lead other to one. Being play actors themselves, that's the message others learn. The leaders feel guilty for teaching about what they do not know. Imagine the mind of a child molester giving a sermon. That's got to mess up a lot of minds. I hate to pick on child molesters. Every preacher is a sinner in some way.

God does not answer prayers that don't need answering.Figuring out what God wants is hard work! Very very hard. First you have to humble yourself to ask. Then you have to humble yourself to what really needs to be done.Then you have to completely abandon your efforts to expect God to do what you ask.After you completely give up your ego involvement and surrender, only at that instant does He take care of the situation.It's pretty draining.

I can't really get my head round this. Are you saying that you have to ask god for something that he wants?

You have the opportunity to request help from God. With a lot of effort you can subdue your own ego and God "will text you a message about" what He has in store for you. That's a way to describe it. It's not a voice, in my experience. It's a thought that you recognize as a separate voice or person or thought. Sometimes there is no message except " OK. I got your message. It's already been taken care of." In that next few seconds.....it's taken care of.

The gift for you is answered prayer from God. Anybody watching has no clue what happened. To them it's just the normal turn of events. Only you know that the events happening in front of you are a response to your requests for help. But they don't come until you stop asking and turn everything over to God. So you have to use your "self" or "ego" to ask, then you have to put it all away and "let God" do His thing as He had planned. It's amazing and humbling to experience. And "Peace that passes understanding" just as the songs say.

Of course you don't listen to clergy You alone on the entire planet are the only OneTrueChristian TM

I am one person who has a relationship with God. Mine may be different that what other people have.But the reason I have it is from seeing others who have it. Not any particular faith, or denomination,or even religion. Not church leaders in particular, or church attendees. But here and there, a personof some faith that has found peace as a result of a relationship with the true God.

Not bible thumpers, or preachers, or even Christians in particular. But people at peace with God. They showed me the way whether they knew it or not.

I am one person who has a relationship with God. Mine may be different that what other people have.But the reason I have it is from seeing others who have it.

I would have thought the reason for having a personal relationship with God is that you have a personal relationship with God. Not that you are emulating the behaviors of others who claim to have a personal relationship with God.

I tried hard, God didn't come through. Mother Theresa for all her faults was at least honest on this score:

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Jesus has a very special love for you. As for me, the silence and the emptiness is so great that I look and do not see, listen and do not hear.— Mother Teresa to the Rev. Michael Van Der Peet, September 1979

You'll find that self-esteem as humanism sees it doesn't work. Drug lords have very high self-esteem. So do the Dictators of countries. They think very highly of themselves and are not suffering from low self esteem. You may know some very proud people. They think they are all that. Do you admire them?

I assess people by their behaviour, SW, not for how they feel about themselves. That's why I do admire proud people who do good things, and do not admire drug lords or dictators.

You would probably find Me to be insufferably proud: I've been involved in the arts (music, writing, sculpture, painting, digital art, recording and TV production) since I was a kid. I have art and writing on the Internet, a massive dragon sculpture on My front lawn, and play in 3 bands. My driving record is excellent. My credit rating is pretty darned good, I have a positive net worth in the area of $150K, and I'm just a couple of years away from paying off My second house. I had a 4.375 GPA when I studied business administration, SAT scores in the high 700s, and 100% in high school geometry. I won first-place trophies in black belt kata and kumite in martial arts tournaments in the 1980s and even had My name listed in the regional rankings in Karate Illustrated. I have a kick-ass job in medical transcription at a hospital, and I'm the staff go-to girl when a newbie is trying to figure out a word.

In light of all that, being a goddess is somewhat anticlimactic.

But yes, damn skippy I admire people with high self-esteem. They are the ones who got us out of the muck and drafty huts of our ancestors, because they thought we deserved better. They are the future of humanity, not a bunch of sad priests running around trying to convince us that we're fit only to be kindling for the fires of hell.

There is no benefit to being lazy. God does not answer prayers that don't need answering.Figuring out what God wants is hard work! Very very hard. First you have to humble yourself to ask. Then you have to humble yourself to what really needs to be done.Then you have to completely abandon your efforts to expect God to do what you ask.After you completely give up your ego involvement and surrender, only at that instant does He take care of the situation.It's pretty draining.

But you've said that god does the same thing whether you pray for it or not - so all those lines make no sense - especially the one I bolded. Because if god does what he does regardless of our thoughts and prayers, you do not have to give up ANYTHING, do ANYTHING for god's will to happen. He does it regardless, you said. So I can make no sense of what you have said in those lines, sorry.

Well how would I KNOW if God does the same thing either way? I explain that my prayers were for my wife.She didn't pray, she got the benefit. This suggests that one doesn't have to pray to get God's help. As I said, I'm a lay person, not a prophet. I can't see into things before they happen, or see God workingwithout my request.

So what you are saying is:

You have no clue how your god really operates.You have no idea if your god treats everyone the same.

Add those together, and you have not the slightest idea whether, if we chose to follow your god, he would treat as better, worse, or the same as you.

It's not the best advert for a faith I've ever seen, SkyWriting. "Follow my god, and something may or may not happen".

I've noticed this quite often. Believers are very sure...until they get pressed, and then they suddenly go all "well, how can I know?" - and then, all of us sudden, their religion becomes one that is useful ONLY for that particular person, and quite, quite irrelevant for everyone else.

If there's no guarantees, and not even the suggestion of consistency, why on earth should I give a shit?

God does not answer prayers that don't need answering.Figuring out what God wants is hard work! Very very hard. […] you have to humble yourself to what really needs to be done.Then you have to completely abandon your efforts to expect God to do what you ask.After you completely give up your ego involvement and surrender, only at that instant does He take care of the situation.

Imagine a bus route that winds up and down streets through a town.

You choose a spot at random and wait for a bus. As you wait, you wish and wish for a bus to arrive. No bus comes.You move to another street. As you wait, you wish and wish for a bus to arrive. A bus comes but stops 150 yards from you and you miss it.No bus, and the bus stopping far away from you, happens many times. You humble yourself and keep finding new streets and places and you keep wishing and wishing.You move to another street. As you wait, you wish and wish for a bus to arrive. A bus arrives exactly where you are waiting and you can get on. Surely the bus has heard you!

No, it hasn't... you are having no effect on it by standing there wishing for it to arrive. The bus is going to follow its route come what may.

When it does arrive, you think you have had an effect on the bus and its route; but you haven’t.

The bus on its route is just the same as the future, sometimes, on very rare occasions, the future will turn out precisely as you want it; sometimes it will be pretty close to what you want but still not what you want, but most of the time it is nothing like the future you wished for.

The point is that all gods operate like this – they are the mysterious bus route. And all religions tell you that they know where the bus stops are, but they have no more idea than you; and you and they are wrong far more times than you are right.

Since mankind started thinking, he has tried to work out the bus route. It is only since the Renaissance that he has found that there are patterns to the world (the bus routes): these are defined by real knowledge of the way the world works. It has nothing to do with imaginary beings in the sky. We now know many of the bus routes and we know that none of them are run by gods.

You can continue to stand in a random place in the street and pray for a bus to arrive, or you can use the knowledge that mankind has gained over the years and (i) find the right place to stand or (ii) work out the chances of a bus arriving where you are standing.

Logged

Nobody says “There are many things that we thought were natural processes, but now know that a god did them.”

God does not answer prayers that don't need answering.Figuring out what God wants is hard work! Very very hard. […] you have to humble yourself to what really needs to be done.Then you have to completely abandon your efforts to expect God to do what you ask.After you completely give up your ego involvement and surrender, only at that instant does He take care of the situation.

Imagine a bus route that winds up and down streets through a town.You choose a spot at random and wait for a bus. As you wait, you wish and wish for a bus to arrive. No bus comes.You move to another street. As you wait, you wish and wish for a bus to arrive. A bus comes but stops 150 yards from you and you miss it.No bus, and the bus stopping far away from you, happens many times. You humble yourself and keep finding new streets and places and you keep wishing and wishing.You move to another street. As you wait, you wish and wish for a bus to arrive. A bus arrives exactly where you are waiting and you can get on. Surely the bus has heard you!No, it hasn't... you are having no effect on it by standing there wishing for it to arrive. The bus is going to follow its route come what may.When it does arrive, you think you have had an effect on the bus and its route; but you haven’t.The bus on its route is just the same as the future, sometimes, on very rare occasions, the future will turn out precisely as you want it; sometimes it will be pretty close to what you want but still not what you want, but most of the time it is nothing like the future you wished for.The point is that all gods operate like this – they are the mysterious bus route. And all religions tell you that they know where the bus stops are, but they have no more idea than you; and you and they are wrong far more times than you are right.Since mankind started thinking, he has tried to work out the bus route. It is only since the Renaissance that he has found that there are patterns to the world (the bus routes): these are defined by real knowledge of the way the world works. It has nothing to do with imaginary beings in the sky. We now know many of the bus routes and we know that none of them are run by gods.You can continue to stand in a random place in the street and pray for a bus to arrive, or you can use the knowledge that mankind has gained over the years and (i) find the right place to stand or (ii) work out the chances of a bus arriving where you are standing.

That's interesting. Perhaps I mentioned the bus incident earlier.

I was on the wrong side of Seattle and the bus was leaving for Canada. I got on the wrong street and was lost.Time was ticking away and the bus would be leaving in 10 minutes but I had about 20 minutes of walking left.I was panicking. I was on a bus route but no street busses were showing up. I was running block to block andfeeling more lost. As time ticked down to zero, I just stopped and prayed for a person to step out of a buildingand offer me a ride to the bus station. Then I went back to jogging. Time was up. I stopped again, and asked and asked.Finally 5 minutes late, I just stopped and asked God to handle the entire situation. I was exhausted and nearly in tears.

In that one instant where I finally gave up the situation into His hands, a person exited their apartment, crossed in front of meand got into their car. I asked him for a ride to the bus station. He gladly offered. Riding in his car I felt a peace come over me. My anxiety was gone and I knew everything had been taken care of. I was 5 minutes late, but fully at peaceknowing all was fine. I chatted with the driver about me and my reason for visiting Seattle. He missed the turn. The road turned into the espressway. "No problem" I said. 10 minutes late. Next exit was closed. "When you get the chance to go back is fine" I said. 20 minutes late we got back to the bus station. I bought my ticket at the counter 30 minutes late and jogged to the bus. The driver was just finishing boarding the last passenger and was putting the last bag in as I walked up."Yep, we're running a bit late today, your just in time!" the driver said. "I'm glad. I was lost, but I found the way" I said.

When all was said and done, the PEACE I experienced was the real miracle. Without that, it would have been just another day.

So what you are saying is:You have no clue how your god really operates.You have no idea if your god treats everyone the same.Add those together, and you have not the slightest idea whether, if we chose to follow your god, he would treat as better, worse, or the same as you.It's not the best advert for a faith I've ever seen, SkyWriting. "Follow my god, and something may or may not happen".I've noticed this quite often. Believers are very sure...until they get pressed, and then they suddenly go all "well, how can I know?" - and then, all of us sudden, their religion becomes one that is useful ONLY for that particular person, and quite, quite irrelevant for everyone else.If there's no guarantees, and not even the suggestion of consistency, why on earth should I give a shit?

No. What you are asking is that I travel down two time-lines, one where I pray and monitor the results, the other where I don't pray and monitor the results, then compare the two. Not having the ability to travel down two parallel time-lines, other people can't do your research for you.

No. What you are asking is that I travel down two time-lines, one where I pray and monitor the results, the other where I don't pray and monitor the results, then compare the two. Not having the ability to travel down two parallel time-lines, other people can't do your research for you.

The truth is absolute. Life forms are specks of specks (...) of specks of dust in the universe.Why settle for normal, when you can be so much more? Why settle for something, when you can have everything?We choose our own gods.

You'll find that self-esteem as humanism sees it doesn't work. Drug lords have very high self-esteem. So do the Dictators of countries. They think very highly of themselves and are not suffering from low self esteem. You may know some very proud people. They think they are all that. Do you admire them?

I assess people by their behaviour, SW, not for how they feel about themselves. That's why I do admire proud people who do good things, and do not admire drug lords or dictators.

You would probably find Me to be insufferably proud: I've been involved in the arts (music, writing, sculpture, painting, digital art, recording and TV production) since I was a kid. I have art and writing on the Internet, a massive dragon sculpture on My front lawn, and play in 3 bands. My driving record is excellent. My credit rating is pretty darned good, I have a positive net worth in the area of $150K, and I'm just a couple of years away from paying off My second house. I had a 4.375 GPA when I studied business administration, SAT scores in the high 700s, and 100% in high school geometry. I won first-place trophies in black belt kata and kumite in martial arts tournaments in the 1980s and even had My name listed in the regional rankings in Karate Illustrated. I have a kick-ass job in medical transcription at a hospital, and I'm the staff go-to girl when a newbie is trying to figure out a word.

In light of all that, being a goddess is somewhat anticlimactic.

But yes, damn skippy I admire people with high self-esteem. They are the ones who got us out of the muck and drafty huts of our ancestors, because they thought we deserved better. They are the future of humanity, not a bunch of sad priests running around trying to convince us that we're fit only to be kindling for the fires of hell.

Art is the salvation of society. I feel bad for the priests as well if they've not found peace with God. Many have not. And I feel for you as well if you've not found peace with God. My impression is that your not at peace.

No. What you are asking is that I travel down two time-lines, one where I pray and monitor the results, the other where I don't pray and monitor the results, then compare the two. Not having the ability to travel down two parallel time-lines, other people can't do your research for you.

As I said, to outsiders unaware of the internal conversation with God, observers have noidea that an event is in response to prayer. To observers an answered prayer looks like nothing special at all. They don't know someone has requested help.

No. What you are asking is that I travel down two time-lines, one where I pray and monitor the results, the other where I don't pray and monitor the results, then compare the two. Not having the ability to travel down two parallel time-lines, other people can't do your research for you.

As I said, to outsiders unaware of the internal conversation with God, observers have noidea that an event is in response to prayer. To observers an answered prayer looks like nothing special at all. They don't know someone has requested help.

I specifically asked for a worthwhile comment. Were you confused?Every single prayer for something that can't be cured without medication has failed. This includes studies and non-studies where people simply pray rather than get medical help. If people prayed and got medical help, it worked. If people just got medical help without prayer, it worked. I think it's pretty obvious to anyone with an IQ above 9 why that is.

God does not follow that same agenda. My own evidence trumps what other write.

You have no evidence, genius. All you have are made-up stories (exempli gratia: the Bible) that don't prove dick.

Logged

The truth is absolute. Life forms are specks of specks (...) of specks of dust in the universe.Why settle for normal, when you can be so much more? Why settle for something, when you can have everything?We choose our own gods.

I am one person who has a relationship with God. Mine may be different that what other people have.But the reason I have it is from seeing others who have it.

I would have thought the reason for having a personal relationship with God is that you have a personal relationship with God. Not that you are emulating the behaviors of others who claim to have a personal relationship with God.

I don't have relationships with people because I'm emulating other people. I do it because it's what we are designed to do.

I don't have relationships with people because I'm emulating other people. I do it because it's what we are designed to do.

So you claim to be "designed" to tune into a personal invisible sky daddy you call God?

Oh sure, of course you are ... likemillions of Hindus tune into Ganesha the elephant-headed god ...

Funny that people bounded by geography and time seem "designed" to believe in the same gods that other people around them can be seen to be believing. It's not so popular to be tuned into Zeus or Odin or Beelzebub these days

Art is the salvation of society. I feel bad for the priests as well if they've not found peace with God. Many have not. And I feel for you as well if you've not found peace with God. My impression is that your not at peace.

I choose, SW, to eschew "peace" because it is passion, not complacency, that drives My work. I am as satisfied as I want to be and as satisfied as I need to be.

Your alleged god has no role to play in My art, and that is how it should be.

Art is the salvation of society. I feel bad for the priests as well if they've not found peace with God. Many have not. And I feel for you as well if you've not found peace with God. My impression is that your not at peace.

I choose, SW, to eschew "peace" because it is passion, not complacency, that drives My work. I am as satisfied as I want to be and as satisfied as I need to be. Your alleged god has no role to play in My art, and that is how it should be.

Peace with God is not the same as complacency. But some do have that belief. I hear much resentment and anger and unrest. I feel bad about that. I have no problem with unbelievers. I'm not responsible for their peace.

I don't have relationships with people because I'm emulating other people. I do it because it's what we are designed to do.

So you claim to be "designed" to tune into a personal invisible sky daddy you call God?

Oh sure, of course you are ... likemillions of Hindus tune into Ganesha the elephant-headed god ...Funny that people bounded by geography and time seem "designed" to believe in the same gods that other people around them can be seen to be believing. It's not so popular to be tuned into Zeus or Odin or Beelzebub these days

My scriptures I follow are not required to know The Creator of the Universe. Any of those followers have the same opportunity as me to know God.Jesus said that those who did not hear His words and believed were even better off than those who did.