I really like what one of the pp's said about the childhood phase needing to be very concrete, and I don't think it has to be "all or nothing". That's why I still Believe!! Geez, didn't you people ever see Miracle on 34th Street?

I LOVE that movie! We watch it (the old black and white one) every year! We also watch It's a Wonderful Life. I don't worry about Santa screwing up my kids any more than I worry about them thinking that "every time a bell rings, and angle gets their wings."

Quote:

Originally Posted by Aradia Paganus

Telling our children that A exists and B,C and D do not exist as a matter of fact simply because we believe this or that could be considered stretching the truth.

Nice post! When my kids ask me a direct question, I tell them that different people believe different things. I'm really into Joseph Cambell and comparative mythology, so I would be hard pressed to say that any *myth* isn't true, because they all contain truths. I think that when we get too literal with kids, we cut them off from a great deal of subtle wisdom that was passed through the centuries.

Quote:

Now, a Christian parent decides they will not 'lie' to their children and tell them there are no such things as fairies, for example. But many native- European traditions believe very strongly that fairies do exist. Not many people have seen them, can't really touch them, etc. But they 'know' they're real.

My kids are 8 and 10 and believe in fairies. They've asked me if I believe in fairies, and I tell them that I'm not sure. I've never seen a fairy, but there are a lot of things that I haven't seen that I do believe, so may be they are real. My kids know that *most* people don't believe in fairies.

We tell our kids over and over that they can believe anything that feels right to them, and they are free to change their minds. (Both my Dh and I are different religions that we were raised in, so to us, this is just telling our kids the truth. All children will eventuall come to their own decisions and many will change their minds, we've just decided to be honest with them about the fact that they have this power.)

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But to be completely honest with your child they need to understand that different people believe in different things—not that a group of people lie to each other about A or B. How judgmental is it for one parent to say, “Those people believe that there are such things as D, but it’s a lie, and I won’t lie to you. Now, this man can walk on water, which is the truth.”

I really think that to tell a child that we have all the answers and know everything is a lie. We don't have all the answers. Science figures out new things everyday, and what was once taught as "biblical" is now understood to just be wrong (the sun going around the earth, for example, was a religious doctrine).

The spirit of Santa is alive and well. No, it doesn't fill my kids' stocking, but I see it as the spirit behind the toy and food drives that mark the Christmas season. It amazes me every year how much people give to those who have less than them, people they will never meet, and people who have no way of even thanking them. That to me, is the true spirit of Christmas and of Santa. It's REAL.

When my kids were really little and they were helping me pick out gifts for a toy drive, I explained that we get to help Santa, which is really, really cool.

Quote:

When it comes to spiritual and religious beliefs we should be careful when using words like ‘lie’. That will only set a child up for a life of judging other people’s beliefs, and says a lot about how we as adults are judgmental of different beliefs.

I wish we had another word for "myth" that a had a positive connotation. Santa is a myth, but to me, that is a wonderful thing.

The spirit of Santa is alive and well. No, it doesn't fill my kids' stocking, but I see it as the spirit behind the toy and food drives that mark the Christmas season. It amazes me every year how much people give to those who have less than them, people they will never meet, and people who have no way of even thanking them. That to me, is the true spirit of Christmas and of Santa. It's REAL.

See, to me though... that is the spirit of the goodness in people's hearts that I believe everyone has and is born with (regardless of chosen belief system) ... I choose to tell our daughter that -- that people manifest goodness into their lives by living it, by random (or not!) acts of kindess, by choosing how they want to treat people, by choosing the feelings and energy they want to spread in the world...

I don't believe telling her santa is make believe makes anything less fun for her no more than I believe the fact that I know for sure I don't physically live the life I am manifesting *yet!* makes it any less fun for me to visualize and imagine... and I also feel that by telling her that kindesses and love and giving and all that surrounds us around Christmas (and at all times) comes from an *outside* source (spirit of santa or something) defeats the purpose of trying to show her that it all comes from within ... (and in my belief system in particular the kingdom of God is within us but it can go with any belief system... the *coming from within* type thought) ...

I suppose religion aside, I want to teach my daughter that it is really fun to imagine, daydream, visualize, wonder, ask, pretend, play make believe, --- but that her life is still magical and wonderful and awesome even if a fat man doesn't come down our chimney or a fairy doesn't put money under her pillow for losing a tooth...

I love that she knows things are pretend (like when she pretends things all the time around here that I know she knows aren't *real* -- like the big stool isn't a horse or elevator) but that in spite of knowing, she still has the time of her life... and I like that it comes from HER ... not from a bunch of people, her parents in particular, TELLING her santa is coming to her house...

I'm regretting posting this. I thought maybe I would find some parents who have the same views as me (NOT the religious views but the no tall tale telling views) and we'd say, "hey, similarities!" and that'd be the end of it. I'd know that I'm not absurd. I did my best to keep religion out of it BUT we don't celebrate certain things because of our religion. I also said, "blah blah" when explaining the religion part. I was not attempting to start a debate about religion.

As for the woman who so aggresively insists on asking me about how I raise my daughter to view those that are not Christians....I don't encourage her to go around asking others what their faith choice is. In fact...I approach the subject much like I approach santa. "Angelica, not everyone believes in Santa but some people do. It is not my place or yours to tell them that he does not exist. They will find out some level of the truth eventually and then they will do what is right for them." She gets it. She does not feel the need to run around screaming that santa and your God is not real (your God being whatever God you choose to worship.) We teach her to accept everyone for who they are and we encourage her to learn about other cultures, places, races, and religions.

One day my daughter will make an informed choice. I hope she chooses what is right for her because it is what she feels and believes..not because she was raised in that particular environment. I was raised in a Christian environment and I ran from it and then eventually and slowly came back to it. Because it is what is right for me. I am not sitting around breathing fire down people's necks. It is not my choice to damn anyone. I do believe in Heaven and Hell and I believe that who goes where is up to ONLY the Lord and themselves...decided by the way they live and love.

If I am wrong then please correct me and I apologize greatly in advance...The parent who said she does not celebrate the topics I brought up originally because of her religion and asked how I will teach my daughter to view others in this world is Jewish, correct? I admit that I have very limited knowledge about the Jewish religion. The knowledge I do have says that most...MOST...Do not believe that others...gentile?...will go to "heaven". I might be mixing things here but that is what I thought. And I have had a few friends in my day who have discussed with me that some of their family members were less than accepting of non-jewish (gentiles?) people because of what they had been taught as part of their religious belief...I'd rather not point out the specifics because to me they seemed pretty horrible and again I have no clue if it is correct information and I don't want to step on anyone's toes.

Let me ask you the same question...Would you let your children play with mine? It has never occurred to me to stop my daughter from befriending a person because they were raised differently than her. In fact the entire original post was about how people did not accept us for us because of our life choices. It would be completely ironic if we acted the same way towards people while I sat here complaining about the looks that I get???!!!

maybe I should have been more vague and more specific all at the same time..."any parents out there that do not participate in santa, easter bunny, tooth fairy?" and then I should have left it at that...hmm..maybe I should have added a disclaimer...(anyone who offers anything more than a simple yes or no answer to my original question is on their own!) I am glad we were all able to get through it without calling one another nasty names. kudos!

A lie is simply an untruth to me. It's pretty clear cut in my opinion. I always remind my daughter that she is entitled to her own opinion and I'd love to hear it. To me, santa does not exist. I'd rather focus on what is fact for ME when it comes to these types of discussions with my daughter but I make sure to include other view points and ask her to respect others opinions. I did not say you...I said me. After all, she is my child. I would prefer she did not go around bashing and crushing dreams of those who are not the same as her. This post was not about definitions of words like "lie" and "christian". It was not about right and wrong. It was simply about choosing to not participate in hallmark holidays (and that is what they are to me..I am posting this from my view point, obviously). It was about my point of view on those hallmark holidays and me asking for parents who shared my views.

this board obviously dominates too much of my time...I was just in the shower (what else could I think about in the shower? I'll have to run down a list of options...hehe) and it occurred to me that I had not thanked those who kept it to the original topic and kept it eloquent. Whoops! Thanks ladies! I have to say..those who did let it stray from the OT still did it in a nice way..Of course I was personally offended because I was assumed to be a certain way because I'm a Christian but I guess that is the risk you take when you open your "mouth" on a very diverse public forum. I did not intend for this to be moved to spirituality lol. Maybe I should have made two posts...one including it and one not including it. Separate issues? Anyway, thanks for the good read! You sure know how to keep a chick scrolling.

If I am wrong then please correct me and I apologize greatly in advance...The parent who said she does not celebrate the topics I brought up originally because of her religion and asked how I will teach my daughter to view others in this world is Jewish, correct? I admit that I have very limited knowledge about the Jewish religion. The knowledge I do have says that most...MOST...Do not believe that others...gentile?...will go to "heaven".

Jews (and Jewish texts) talk very little about heaven, but at minimum it is accepted that "righteous gentiles" would go there. Righteous gentiles being anyone who follows the 7 "Noachide laws" :
1. Do not murder.
2. Do not steal.
3. Do not worship false gods.
4. Do not be sexually immoral.
5. Do not eat a limb removed from a live animal.
6. Do not curse God.
7. Set up courts and bring offenders to justice.

(Caveat: I am a relatively ill-informed and way non-observant Jew. But I think I'm pretty safe on this one....)
ETA: Of course, as far as acceptance of other beliefs, rule number 3 may pose a bit of a problem, since it presumably only includes Jews, Christians and Muslims

Elizabeth, I'm very sorry if my sincere questions came across as agressive to you. I'll answer your question and then let the rest of you carry on with the Easter Bunny, etc.

I've known quite a few Christians, and none of them have believed that they are the only ones going to heaven. Of course, I know that there are Christians, like yourself, who do believe this, but I've never personally encountered them, so I took the opportunity to ask how this plays into the way your kid views the world. It just seemed contradictory to me that someone who believes God has already damned large segments of the population would be able to relate to those people in the same manner she relates to other Christians.

But you say:

"It is not my choice to damn anyone. I do believe in Heaven and Hell and I believe that who goes where is up to ONLY the Lord and themselves...decided by the way they live and love."

To me, that sounds more in line with the way I think than the impression I initially took from your statements.

Of course I would let my kids play with yours. My kids are not raised to think that anyone's religious beliefs are wrong or that they need to see the light, change their faith, etc in order to end up in heaven.

As for Judaism, it is a religion all about deeds. What you do here on earth is what counts the most, not your degree of "faith" per se. It does not teach (at least, not my branch of Judaism) that non-Jews will not go to heaven.

I don't plan to make things up and tell my kids things that I know to be fiction. I'm a very loical and pragmatic person and I didn't enjoy finding out that I had been duped, so I don't plan to do that with my kids. It helps that we celebrate the Jewish/Biblical holidays which don't have any Santas or bunnies, but I don't plan to plan the Tooth Fairy game or any others either.

I don't know how I'll handle the animal issue. I guess I'll give my honest answer which is that I believe G-d created animals and He will take care of them and do what's best for them when they die. Maybe we'll see them in heaven and maybe not, but regardless, they're somewhere safe and free of pain. I guess I'd leave it at that. I don't want to traumataize my kids by saying they're rotting in the backyard or by just telling them they're not in heaven, especially if I've already told them that people either go to heaven or hell according to our religion. Anyways, I'll try to be sensitive and compassionate without spinning a tale I can't support. My family are big animal lovers and DH and I plan to carry that on with our kids. I would have been devastated if my mom had told my that my perfect cat Phoebe was rotting in some dumpster. I'm thankful that she told me she was in heaven just because it was comforting. Again, I don't want to lie, but I do want to be comforting.

I don't think my choice to go this way with my kids is religious based, but just the outcome of being a logical and rational person and believing that kids can handle the truth without excessive sugar-coating.

I'm regretting posting this. I thought maybe I would find some parents who have the same views as me (NOT the religious views but the no tall tale telling views) and we'd say, "hey, similarities!"

You did find that! Several people feel the same way as you.

Some of us don't and we talked about why. My parents felt the same way as you and it really didn't work for me, so I do things differently with my kids. It is quite possible that my kids will do things differently with their own kids. There isn't one right answer.

Quote:

Let me ask you the same question...Would you let your children play with mine? It has never occurred to me to stop my daughter from befriending a person because they were raised differently than her.

I would totally let my kids play with yours, but it isn't the same thing at all. We are homeschoolers and we aren't Christians. Because of that, there are homeschooling groups that we cannot join. Many homeschooling groups require a statement of faith that I cannot sign. It isn't enough for us to be respectful while we are there -- we just aren't welcome. I've never heard of any group other than Christians making these kinds of rules for activities for kids.

I would totally let my kids play with yours, but it isn't the same thing at all. We are homeschoolers and we aren't Christians. Because of that, there are homeschooling groups that we cannot join. Many homeschooling groups require a statement of faith that I cannot sign. It isn't enough for us to be respectful while we are there -- we just aren't welcome. I've never heard of any group other than Christians making these kinds of rules for activities for kids.

I am in the same position.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Earthly_Joys

I'm regretting posting this. I thought maybe I would find some parents who have the same views as me (NOT the religious views but the no tall tale telling views) and we'd say, "hey, similarities!" and that'd be the end of it. I'd know that I'm not absurd. I did my best to keep religion out of it BUT we don't celebrate certain things because of our religion. I also said, "blah blah" when explaining the religion part. I was not attempting to start a debate about religion.

As for the woman who so aggresively insists on asking me about how I raise my daughter to view those that are not Christians....I don't encourage her to go around asking others what their faith choice is. In fact...I approach the subject much like I approach santa. "Angelica, not everyone believes in Santa but some people do. It is not my place or yours to tell them that he does not exist. They will find out some level of the truth eventually and then they will do what is right for them." She gets it. She does not feel the need to run around screaming that santa and your God is not real (your God being whatever God you choose to worship.) We teach her to accept everyone for who they are and we encourage her to learn about other cultures, places, races, and religions.

If I am wrong then please correct me and I apologize greatly in advance...The parent who said she does not celebrate the topics I brought up originally because of her religion and asked how I will teach my daughter to view others in this world is Jewish, correct? I admit that I have very limited knowledge about the Jewish religion. The knowledge I do have says that most...MOST...Do not believe that others...gentile?...will go to "heaven". I might be mixing things here but that is what I thought. And I have had a few friends in my day who have discussed with me that some of their family members were less than accepting of non-jewish (gentiles?) people because of what they had been taught as part of their religious belief...I'd rather not point out the specifics because to me they seemed pretty horrible and again I have no clue if it is correct information and I don't want to step on anyone's toes.

maybe I should have been more vague and more specific all at the same time..."any parents out there that do not participate in santa, easter bunny, tooth fairy?" and then I should have left it at that...hmm..maybe I should have added a disclaimer...(anyone who offers anything more than a simple yes or no answer to my original question is on their own!) I am glad we were all able to get through it without calling one another nasty names. kudos!

Elizabeth

Well, someone else brought up the OP of telling their children that only xians go to heaven. I have never ever met a Jew who believed anything of the sort. In fact, most I know do not believe in the Xian "heaven".

The problem is that religion is a touchy subject. And when someone casually brings out the "all heathens go to hell" approach, how would you react? To me, heaven is a myth just like Santa and the Easter Bunny. Many of us teach our kids (not all of us ) that if you are good, Santa brings you presents. If you are good, you go to heaven. It is all an awards system based on mythology.

So I see how the two ideas are intertwined. I don't know. It just really I guess makes me very sad that people would teach their kids that you go to hell and eternal fire and damnation if you don't accept Jesus. That's a very delicate subject for a lot of us. And honestly, if my kids wanted to hang out with someone who thought that, I don't know if I would let them. I don't want anyone proselytizing to my kids or telling them they are going to hell.

I also need to say too that our current president claims to be a Bible believing Christian and yet um, he sort of sailed by that whole *thou shalt not kill* thing when he delcared war

I know this is off topic, but....

The Bible says "do not murder." Murder and killing are different in that murder is defined as unlawful killing. If God had said not to kill, how do we explain the numerous times in the Bible that he ordered his worshippers to kill other tribes?

I know that some Bibles have been translated or modified to say not to kill, rather than murder. But the Hebrew commandments refer to murder.

We don't pretend that there is a Santa, Easter Bunny, Tooth Fairy, etc. either.

We do sometimes read books that have those stories in them, but we make it clear that it's fiction. We explain them by talking about how some people like to pretend.

My parents think I'm insane and my DH even thought it a bit weird until I explained to him how betrayed I felt when I learned they weren't true. As a young child (about 10 or so) I honestly started to question whether or not I could trust adults since they had all lied to me about Santa, Easter Bunny, etc. To this day I struggle with trust issues.

My Parents were of the very vague, pretending school of thought for Santa, Easter Bunny & Tooth Fairy. By Kindergarten I knew it was "pretend" but still enjoyed it. I knew the tooth fairy was pretend before I ever lost a tooth! My mom's fairyology (you know, theology of pretend gift-bringers) promoted the idea that each child has his/her own tooth fairy, with her own quirks. My big brother's fairy had really big feet; mine had big ears. The notes and drawings from our fairies were clearly in my mother's hand, but it was fun to act like we all believed in them. And to get quarters under the pillow!

DS (now 5 years!) said he didn't want to look for Easter eggs because the Easter Bunny is pretend. My mom said, But it's fun to pretend!
The next morning, you'd have thought that DS was a devout follower of the Easter Bunny--he was so passionate about the egg hunt in the house, and kept saying how he was a "tricky bunny" and a "silly rabbit" every time he found an egg.
therefore, I am both, "doing the santa/bunny thing" and being honest with my child. For those who promote santa & the bunny, I wouldn't put it on the same level as "lying." One thing I really DON"T like, and often overhear especially while shopping in Nov/Dec. is that Santa is watching/Santa won't bring you something nice if you misbehave. I think that could cause children to lose faith in God . . . because of the manipulation of it.

Well fwiw, Elizabeth... I have always felt uncomfortable with telling my kids that a big fat man came down the chimeny to give them presents at christmas. I have never ever done the santa/easter bunny thing. When they lost their teeth I have to admit that it was kinda funny to pretend to phone the tooth fairy and ask them to pick up their teeth. Sometimes she forgot tho and they went a whole week without recieving their 'dues'. They totally knew it was pretend. I actually started wondering if I was depriving them of a wonderful childhood because of it and I think thats why I actually did the toothfairy thing briefly. It was just so funny when they would say 'Let me speak to her!!!!'... 'Oh sorry love, she hang up'. or 'Oh it was a bloke this time anyway' . When I think about it it was just so funny. My twin girls have never beleived in Santa etc. My son, however (who is younger by 18 months), insisted for a while that there was a Santa. Its like when we were talking about him being pretend he seriously blanked us out and turned to us like he really hadnt heard us. Since becoming a christian I had been uncomfortable with celebrating halloween (especially as a religious holiday, sorry, no offence intended). Thinking back I was quite ignorant to its origins and did beleive alot of what the church taught about it. Now since we live in the Uk, halloween isnt even celebrated the way they do it in the US. But if I were living back home, I might actually celebrate it as something secular and fun, make up our own traditions surrounding it, research the history of it, actually appreciate how people like Unschoolnma celebrate it because I am intrigued with other religions/faiths (understanding them and how devout people of other faiths are. I was totally ignorant to this. Not just because of my own faith but because of how we were raised in my family). Ive gone all over the place here.... sorry. Its a good subject. For us Christmas has nothing to do with Santa and Easter has NOTHING to do with the Easter Bunny. So its not part of our tradition.

I don't know how we'll do the whole Santa/Tooth Fairy/Easter Bunny thing. I personally have a problem with the secular Santa Claus. Coming from a Catholic background, we believe that Santa is real, as Saint Nicholas. To us, he is a real historical figure, not the fat man who slithers down the chimney in his cheap velour suit and pleather shoes. Still, I don't see any horrible harm in Santa, the fairy or the bunny. I was raised with all three and I do not have any lasting harmful psychological effects from learning that they weren't "real." I believe it lies in how you present it to the kids. In our family, it's done in fun. Heck, my dad still signs presents from Santa Claus.
As for the animals thing, I firmly, firmly believe that animals go to Heaven. I cannot wrap my mind around a loving-God who created all of us humans and our fellow creatures on Earth, who are sinless and pure, who would then cast off their lives as if they never existed once they died. Like the saying goes, if there are no animals in Heaven, then I don't want to go. I would never deem myself great enough to judge who can and who cannot enter Heaven. I'm not God, and He is not someone I can clearly define and put in a box.
FWIW, I worked with a veterinarian who prided herself on being a holy Christian woman. She believe that only those souls who were saved by Christ in her own religion would make it to Heaven. As a Catholic, I was a heathen to her. She also believed that animals do not have souls and do not go to Heaven. When an animal died and she spoke with the owners, she would outright tell them that their animal had no soul and is not in Heaven. She would tell this to small children who would wail in agony at her words. Adults would weep as well. I'm sorry, but I think her actions were pure evil. I have a hard time finding any part of Christ in her words and actions.
I look foward to seeing my pets, my non-Christian friends and family in Heaven when I die.

Jenn mama to MonkeySquishy& River(8wks)Wife to Mike See you at the Bridge, Abigael and McKenna

This is an interesting thread! To answer the OP - we don't do Santa, Easter Bunny or Tooth Fairy either. I would like to see a Santa/tooth fairy/easter bunny though - perhaps it would be a fat fairy in a red suit with bunny ears .

When I was a child we did Santa and Easter Bunny and Tooth Fairy - and I was Jewish.

I remember finding out that there was no Santa and it was just our parents (I don't know how I found out though) and I told my younger sister who got upset and then my mom spanked me and I still remember my outrage at being spanked for telling the truth.

I figured that Christianity was just like the whole Santa story - be good and you get gifts and be bad and you get coal or no gifts is just like be good and you go to heaven and be bad and you go to hell. So I thought that all Christians were just brainwashed by their parents and the story kept getting passed down that way.

I am now a born-again Christian.

We don't do Christmas or Easter. We do as little Halloween as possible, but we do give out candy to the kids who come by and I let my kids trick or treat with their dad.

I personally don't believe the whole heaven and hell thing. :
I have not found it in the Bible anywhere that says specifically "dead people go to heaven" or "dead people go to hell".

I do believe that salvation is through Jesus Christ. But to me salvation does not equal going to heaven and escaping hell.

Quote:

Originally Posted by pfamilygal

Well, Isaiah 11:6 says "The wolf will live with the lamb,
the leopard will lie down with the goat,
the calf and the lion and the yearling together;
and a little child will lead them."
I haven't seen predators and prey lying about together down here yet.
I don't know if there will be animals in Heaven, but I don't think the Bible definitively says there won't. We'll see.

Heaven is not mentioned in those verses anywhere.

Quote:

Originally Posted by rootzdawta

I remember also as a little girl, my parents listened exclusively to Family Radio and there was a guy on there called Harold Camping. He told a little girl that called in on his radio show that her puppy that just died was not in heaven--that dogs don't go to heaven when they day, they just decay. The little girl was already crying when she called. She was bawling by the time she got off. I felt that was so wrong . . . and I was only 8.

I don't think parents should willfully lie to their children. However, we all believe different things and what may be a lie to someone may be a hard held truth to another.

Even though I don't buy the whole heaven and hell thing, I would not argue with a young child about it. Now to my own child I would explain kindly that we don't know what happens when we die and "All dogs go to heaven" is just a cartoon movie and not real.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Aradia Paganus

More thoughts....

It is very interesting that an entire society will tell its children a fabrication of-- what they believe to the-- truth it order to sell things? or spread culture? or what?

So much time and effort in put into this cultural mythology... I accidentally flipped on the network news on Christmas Eve and they have a very dramatic computer animated 'breaking news' bulliten about the army having spotted Santa Claus over Germany... they even had a quick sound-bite with a military officer about having used sophisticated tracking equipment to find Santa.

Oy Vey.

I agree - Christmas, Easter and Halloween are very much consumer driven.
I have seen Christians get really upset when they are told that Christmas is not Biblical and in fact has pagan roots. It reminds me of Mohammed telling people that idols were false and then the idol makers got all annoyed at him. (I can't remember all the history around that, but I think it had something to do with Mecca - can a Muslim mom help out here?)

We dont do the Santa, easter bunny toothfairy thing either. But I do believe there is a special place in Heaven for the special beloved animals that I have had. I think that non "pet" animals are reincarnated that is my 2 cents.

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