Beyond the boundaries of established science an avalanche of exotic ideas compete for our attention. Experts tell us that these ideas should not be permitted to take up the time of working scientists, and for the most part they are surely correct. But what about the gems in the rubble pile? By what ground-rules might we bring extraordinary new possibilities to light?

Science has displaced myth and superstition. But is it possible that, in our scientific confidence, we’ve missed something of incalculable value? If the mystery were limited to a handful of absurd claims about Saturn, that would be one things. But as it turns out, the Saturn myth is just a window to a vastly larger story. It can now be demonstrated that there are hundreds of mythic archetypes or points of agreement between the early cultures. Together they reveal an eerie coherence that could not be accidental. Random speculations or self-serving inventions from one culture to another could not have produced the underlying unity that has been documented in recent years.

I firmly agree with David Talbott in the use of ancient myths in order to describe the ancient and present ideas of understanding of the Universe. I am fairly sure that our ancestors all over the world had a natural and spiritual world perception, which was told for generations and later written down.

We all live on the same planet Earth, in the same Solar System, in the same Milky Way galaxy and in the same local part of the observable Universe. Of course the numerous cultural Stories of Creation should contain a very similar telling and somewhat similar symbols and allegories.

What did our ancestors really observe with their physical and spiritual senses? What allegoric and symbolic language and signs did they use in order to describe what they observed?

When gazing at the Sky at day- and nighttime, we observe a Sun seemingly wandering over the Sky in different altitudes during the seasons. We observe the Moon, the 5 ancient planets or "wandering stars" moving on the ecliptic and star constellations revolving around a celestial point in the Sky and we can observe the whitish colors and contours of the vaulting Milky Way band, also seemingly revolving around the Earth celestial axis.

The big question then is of course: How big was the ancient world picture? What does the inherited numerous cultural Myths of Creation from all over the world really tell? Do we overestimate or underestimate the ancient knowledge?

- I think the latter is the case in "The Mythical Interpretations in the TBP", but what are your thoughts and arguments?

If you make people think they're thinking, they'll love you; but if you really make them think, they'll hate you.

First we need to decide whether the similarity of myth world-wide is due to some spiritual-type perception, or due to an advanced ancient communication. This will tell us much about the ancients and their myths. Like was there a language that was spread world-wide.

Then the next part is whether the myth were used to tell significant teachings and used for navigation. Rather than there being significant events in the sky that initiate the myths. And then whether the myths were modified by such sky events.

So was there an ancient advanced civilization, and a different configuration of planets, and so a cataclysmic period that affected humanity severely. These are the issues.

We all live on the same planet Earth, in the same Solar System, in the same Milky Way galaxy and in the same local part of the observable Universe. Of course the numerous cultural Stories of Creation should contain a very similar telling and somewhat similar symbols and allegories.

So, what do the stories of creation really tell? As an opening example, I would like to focus on the Egyptian story of creation, the Ogdoad and, as an example of the possible extention of the ancient knowledge of our local Universe, on the myth of the Egyptian goddess, Hathor.

“The eight deities were arranged in four male-female pairs: Nu and Naunet, Amun and Amaunet, Kuk and Kauket, Huh and Hauhet. The males were associated with frogs and females were associated with snakes. Apart from their gender, there was little to distinguish the male gods and female goddesses; indeed, the names of the females are merely derivative female forms of the male name. Essentially, each pair represents the male and female aspect of one of the four concepts of primordial chaos, namely the primordial waters (Nu and Naunet), air, invisibility, and hidden powers (Amun and Amaunet), darkness and obscurity (Kuk and Kauket), and eternity or infinity (Huh and Hauhet)”.

My comment: The gendered deities represents, in my mytho-cosmological interpretation, “opposite but complementary qualities and elementary stages” which corresponds to the electromagnetic polarities and forces of creation. As Huh and Hauhet represents Eternity and Infinity, the Ogdoad story of creation states the Universe to be eternal which contradicts the Big Bang theory.

“Together the four concepts represent the primal, fundamental state of the beginning. They are what always was. In the myth, however, their interaction ultimately proved to be unbalanced, resulting in the arising of a new entity. When the entity opened, it revealed Ra, the fiery sun, inside. After a long interval of rest, Ra, together with the other deities, created all other things and brought order to the universe”.

My comment: Ra creates everything "together with other deities". (See goddess Hathor connection below) IMO “beginning” does not mean a beginning of the creation of the entire Universe, but only of the formation of the ancient known part of the Universe. The “arising of a new entity” speaks of a central function, “the fiery sun”, (Atum)-Ra, (Which possibly can be connected to a galactic Bennett electromagnetic Z-Pinch and a nuclear formation)

“The Ancient Greeks sometimes identified Hathor with the goddess Aphrodite, while in Roman mythology she corresponds to Venus”. (See goddess Hathor and her Milky Way connection below)

Question: If this is correct, what implications does this have for the mythical interpretation in the EU and the ascription of mythical contexts and atttributes to planets?

“Hathor, along with the goddess Nut, was associated with the Milky Way during the third millennium B.C. when, during the fall and spring equinoxes, it aligned over and touched the earth where the sun rose and fell. The four legs of the celestial cow represented Nut or Hathor could, in one account, be seen as the pillars on which the sky was supported with the stars on their bellies constituting the Milky Way on which the solar barque of Ra, representing the sun, sailed”.

Questions:Do all cultural primeval mother goddesses represent the MIlky Way? Is the "solar barque of Ra" really representing the Sun if the barque is sailing on the Milky Way? (Which only can be observed in the night) Does Ra really represent the Sun?

“Hathor had a complex relationship with Ra. At times she is the eye of Ra and considered his daughter, but she is also considered Ra's mother. She absorbed this role from another cow goddess Mehet-Weret ("Great flood") who was the mother of Ra in a creation myth and carried him between her horns”.

Questions: What are the "complex relationship" between Hathor and Ra? If Hathor is connected to the Milky Way (the Great Flood) and Ra should be her father, then Ra must represent "something that participates in the (pre)-creation of the Milky Way. On the other hand, if Hathor is the mother to Ra, this must mean the Sun since (Atum-)Ra and Hathor "created all other things" in the ancient known part of the Universe.

Comment:There clearly is a mytho-cosmological confusion between Atum-Ra and Ra. IMO Atum-Ra (the fiery light) represents the primeval deity in the pre-creation of the Milky Way and it´s central light, where Ra represents the Sun. This difference shall be taken into account when ascribing mythical contexts to astronomical and cosmological objects in the Sky.

My summary:It seems to me that the ancient world perception and it´s mythical stories of creation really includes knowledge of our Milky Way. This rises the question of whether the mythical interpretation in the TBP is sufficient enough when primarily dealing with planetary matter and ideas.

Edit: It also rises the question whether the mythical interpretation in the TBP is ascribed to the correct celestial objects and motions.

If you make people think they're thinking, they'll love you; but if you really make them think, they'll hate you.

The very looks of the Milky Way seems to play a role in the cultural stories, so the symbols of the Milky Way of course also plays a significant role in the cultural myths.

The Ouroboros

The Milky Way (River) contours can be observed running all around the Earth, which is why it is called the "Midgaard Serpent" in the Norse Mythology, where Midgaard is the home for humans. I´ll say this Serpent symbol is the primary one in the global Stories of Creation. This Serpent symbol is known in many other cultures as well, but of course the Milky Way contours are given many other names.

Southern and northern hemipheres MW-Contours

The next primary symbols derives from the division of the Earth hemisphere, where the southern and northern hemisphere Milky Way contours gives origin to the Great Mother Goddess on the southern hemisphere and the Great Father God on the northern hemsiphere.

Southern hemisphere MW-Contours

Southern.04.jpg (21.63 KiB) Viewed 10642 times

The Great Mother Goddess on the southern hemisphere where the Milky Way center is located in the star constellation of Sagittarius. If imaging this contour as a woman, the MW-center is located in the area of her womb, giving origin to the mytheme of "The Cosmic Womb" and "heavenly mother of the creation"

Northern hemisphere MW-Contours

Northern Hemisphere.04.jpg (22.42 KiB) Viewed 10642 times

The Great Father God resides in the northern hemisphere as the all seeing and omnipresent god because of the seemingly revolving motion which also gives the mytho-cosmological attribute of "Father Time".

Summary:The Central Light in the Milky Way is the first mythical symbol of creation.The Milky Way bulged center represents the "Cosmic Mound or Mountain", and the "Cosmic Womb mytheme".The Serpent is the third symbol of creation.The Earth divided hemispheres and Milky Way contours gives origin for the 4.th and 5.th symbol of creation.

These 5 basic symbols should in some way or another fit into all cultural tellings of the creation.

PS: When working with stories of creation and ancient deities, one has to remember that several cultural overlays of different deities occurs in many cultures. By focusing only on the mytho-cosmological images, one can avoid the confusion from most of these cultural layers.

If you make people think they're thinking, they'll love you; but if you really make them think, they'll hate you.

Many scholars and authors locate the myth of the Cosmic Mound to geographical mountains as noted here - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sacred_mountains - but when thinking of the "as above, so below" sentence, these geographic mountains represents the heavenly mound or mount.

Quote:“Mount Meru of Hindu traditions has clearly mythical (Edit. and cosmical) aspects, being described as 84,000 Yojan high (which is around 1,082,000 km (672,000 mi), or 85 times the Earths's diameter), and having the Sun along with all its planets in the Solar System revolve around it as one unit”.

Comment: Disregarded the accuracy of given numbers, the text speaks without any doubts about the Milky Way central bulge around which the Solar System orbits.

If you make people think they're thinking, they'll love you; but if you really make them think, they'll hate you.

PS: When working with stories of creation and ancient deities, one has to remember that several cultural overlays of different deities occurs in many cultures. By focusing only on the mytho-cosmological images, one can avoid the confusion from most of these cultural layers.

Athena was the Greek virgin goddess of reason, intelligent activity, arts and literature. She was the daughter of Zeus; her birth is unique in that she did not have a mother. Instead, she sprang full grown and clad in armour from Zeus' forehead. From - http://www.greekmythology.com/Olympians ... thena.html

Comment: You see? 2 goddesses, different cultural periods but the same goddess. Athena daughter of Zeus, born without a mother = a primeval goddess. And Venus born out of Zeus´forehead or from the sea = a primeval goddess. (Here the "sea" refers to the "foam of the Milky Way" which also is called "the Heavenly River").

You also replied:

Moses raises perhaps the most interesting human questions:Where did homo-sapiens get Their genes,and was it science or intuition that formed the astro-ology of the heavens ?

I haven´t speculated on the origin of the human genes, but I guess the creational energies of these are embedded in overall forces of creation in and beyond our local part of the Universe.

Regarding "the astro-ology" of the heavens, it is my opinion that both physical and spiritual observations and inspirations "of everything above and below" constituted the ancient knowledge. Besides this, I really don´t differ between the modern term "science" and intuitive methods. IMO, a genuine interpretation of the creation myths is more scientific than modern science.

If you make people think they're thinking, they'll love you; but if you really make them think, they'll hate you.

From https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Serpent_%28symbolism%29Quote:”The serpent, or snake, is one of the oldest and most widespread mythological symbols. The word is derived from Latin serpens, a crawling animal or snake. Snakes have been associated with some of the oldest rituals known to humankind and represent dual expression of good and evil.

In some cultures, snakes were fertility symbols. For example, the Hopi people of North America performed an annual snake dance to celebrate the union of Snake Youth (a Sky spirit) and Snake Girl (an Underworld spirit) and to renew the fertility of Nature. During the dance, live snakes were handled and at the end of the dance the snakes were released into the fields to guarantee good crops. "The snake dance is a prayer to the spirits of the clouds, the thunder and the lightning, that the rain may fall on the growing crops.” In other cultures, snakes symbolized the umbilical cord, joining all humans to Mother Earth. The Great Goddess often had snakes as her familiars—sometimes twining around her sacred staff, as in ancient Crete—and they were worshiped as guardians of her mysteries of birth and regeneration.

My comment:The “good and evil”-stuff is interpreted very dualistic by historic and modern scholars, but when thinking of the story of creation, this sentence should be interpreted more in the context of “what happens when we follow the natural and creative forces – or not”.

Quote:“Saturn (Latin: Saturnus Latin pronunciation: [saˈtʊr.nʊs]) is a god in ancient Roman religion, and a character in myth. Saturn is a complex figure because of his multiple associations and long history. He was the first god of the Capitol, known since the most ancient times as Saturnius Mons”.

My comment:Comparative Mythologist and other scholars have great difficulties with placing the prime deities. Mostly, these prime deities are in different encyclopedia and numerous books ascribed to the Sun, Moon and to the Solar System planets, whereby all kind of contradictive and contraintuitive interpretations and explanations of both the myths and their astronomical connections takes place.

Quote:“Indeed, the consistency with which early astronomies identity Saturn as the former creator-king is extraordinary. The Zoroastrians of ancient Persia knew Saturn as the heaven-sustaining Zurvãn, "the King and Lord of the Long Dominion." The Iranian god-king Yima, a transcript of the Hindu Yama, founder of the Golden Age, was also linked to Saturn. The Chinese mythical emperor Huang-ti, first in a great dynasty of kings and mythical founder of the Taoist religion, was identified astronomically as the planet Saturn. Even the Tahitians recall of the god Fetu-tea, the planet Saturn, that he "was the King."

My comment: Of course can the prime male deity of creation in all cultures be compared as the author does very excellent here. But then the author concludes all these cultural and superior deities of creation to be connected with planet Saturn, which hardly and logically cannot be the fact. Planet Saturn is obviously not the prime deity of creation who creates everything in the ancient known world if taking the mythical context seriously.

# 1: “Nothing misrepresents original meanings more profoundly than the common translations of Egyptian texts relative to the daily cycle of the sun god. In the language of the Egyptians themselves, the god does not rise and set, but grows bright and dims. He shines brightly, then his light recedes”.And:# 2. “What, then, of the famous Assyrian and Babylonian god Shamash, the sun god whom we now recognize as Saturn? A remarkable fact is that Shamash "comes forth" (shines) and "goes in" (declines, diminishes) at one spot, the "firm," "stable" or motionless station of supreme "rest".

My comments to #1-2:This is not a "misrepresenting of the original meaning". This is a misconception derived from the lack of astronomical observation routines by the interpretors. Several issues are wrong:

1. It is not a myth of "the central sun" since it deals with the central celestial pole.

2. It is not a "sun-god", because the mythical figure in question does not rise and set as the Sun.

3. It is not planet Saturn assumingly hovering close over the celestial pole, since the myths speaks specifically of a male gendered god figure in itself, which periodically appears and disappears.

4. It doesn´t deal with the "daily cycle of the Sun", but with the annual cycle of the Earth´s orbit around the Sun.

5. It deals with a mythical and celestial male looking gendered figure, which is moving around a stationary celestial location where it grows lighter and dimmer.

All these mythological/astronomical/cosmological confusions takes place all over, including in different encyclopedia´s where scholars just copy and repeat what former authors didn´t observe for themselves in the Sky.

The Mythological and Astronomical explanation of the mytho-cosmological Saturn/Saturnus God is:

As the Earth orbits the Sun, the celestial imagery of the night changes throughout the seasons because of the changing altitude of the Sun. All celestial starry objects grows dimmer and disappears as the Sun ascends, and for some 3-4 months in the summer season, the stars, the constellations and the contours of the Milky Way disappears until the Sun descends later in the season.

This astronomical fact is embedded in the cosmological myths and it gives origin to the global mytheme of "The Departure and Return of the Celestial Deities". This explanation fits logically with the mythical description in the quotes above.

Just by taking the very mythical context of the Saturnus God for granted, anyone who goes out in the night and watch the celestial imagery at a favorable season, can conclude which celestial figure we are talking about: The crescent Milky Way male looking figure which is revolving around the celestial pole, growing dimmer and lighter as the Sun ascends and descends throughout the year.

The observable Father God Archetype in the Sky.

Northern Hemisphere.04.jpg (22.42 KiB) Viewed 10615 times

Star Atlas. The primary God Saturnus/Shamash etc. etc. revolving at his celestial station (the celestial pole) growing lighter and dimmer as the Sun ascends and descends in the annual cycle.

If you make people think they're thinking, they'll love you; but if you really make them think, they'll hate you.

kevin wrote:Norman,Excellent thread.What if?The tales are not of the physical, but of the none physical, which enables the physical to be.....or not to be.Kevin

I am quite sure of both, really. Just take a daily routine going out in Nature and watch the terrestrial and celestial scenario in day- and nighttime. You can also go inside yourself an open up for the non-physical inspirations from terrestrial and celestial realms. Shamans and other sensitive people have done this since time in memorial.

Besides this: Most native people don´t differ between the physical and spiritual realms.

From - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Giant_%28mythology%29Quote:"Giant is the English word (coined 1297) commonly used for the monsters of human appearance but prodigious size and strength common in the mythology and legends of many different cultures. The word giant was derived from the gigantes (Greek: γίγαντες) of Greek mythology.

In various Indo-European mythologies, gigantic peoples are featured as primeval creatures associated with chaos and the wild nature, and they are frequently in conflict with the gods, be they Olympian, Celtic, Hindu or Norse. Giants also often play similar roles in the mythologies and folklore of other, non Indo-European peoples, such as in the Nartian traditions.

There are also accounts of giants in the Old Testament, most famously Goliath, Og King of Bashan, the Nephilim, the Anakim, and the giants of Egypt mentioned in 1 Chronicles 11:23. Attributed to them are extraordinary strength and physical proportions.

“In Norse mythology, the Jotun (jötnar in Old Norse, a cognate with ettin) are often opposed to the gods. While often translated as "giants", most are described as being roughly human sized. Some are portrayed as huge, such as frost giants (hrímþursar), fire giants (eldjötnar), and mountain giants (bergrisar).

The giants are the origin of most of various monsters in Norse mythology (e.g. the Fenrisulfr), and in the eventual battle of Ragnarök the giants will storm Asgard and fight them, until the world is destroyed. Even so, the gods themselves were related to the giants by many marriages, and there are giants such as Ægir, Loki, Mímir, and Skaði, who bear little difference in status to them.

The Chief God Odin was the great-grand son of the Giant Ymir. Norse mythology also holds that the entire world of men was created from the flesh of Ymir, a giant of cosmic proportions, which name is considered by some to share a root with the name Yama of Indo-Iranian mythology”.

My comment:The “Giant” term covers both “a large structure” as well as “huge powers” and the mythical reference to “giants who fights with deities” very much describes how different natural elements interacts and makes all kinds of changes in the creation, as in the myth of Ragnarok which, IMO is a general description of the changing evolution itself.

The giant elementary forces are also at action before the creation of the ancient known part of the Universe, where gigantic clouds of cold and moist meets warm and dry “rivers” in heaven, which floats into the opening of Ginnungagap, the center of the local creation where everything is created.

Quote:“In the beginning, there were two regions: Muspellsheim in the south, full of fire, light and heat; and Niflheim in the north, full of arctic waters, mists, and cold. Between them stretched the yawning emptiness of Ginnungagap, and into it poured sparks and smoke from the south and layers of rime-ice and glacial rivers from the north. As heat and cold met in Ginnungagap, a living Jötunn, (Edit: Giant) Ymir, appeared in the melting ice. From his left armpit, the first man and woman were born. From his legs, the frost jötnar were born, making Ymir the progenitor of the jötnar.

Most sources identify Ymir's oldest son as Thrudgelmir, who bore Ymir's grandson, Bergelmir. The other jötnar are usually unnamed. Ymir fed on the milk of the cow Auðhumla. She licked the blocks of salty ice, releasing Búri.

My comment:As in other cultural tellings of the creation, the Norse myth also have this celestial cow as the creator deity. The cow symbol fits very well with the white river of the Milky Way, also as an allegory of nourishment of life itself, which also is understandable when thinking of the contents and attributes of the Great Mother Goddess.

Summary: The Giants represents both the cosmic elementary forces as well as the largest celestial structures of the Milky Way contours. Hence, we can read of both male and female deities who are created by giant primeval forces of creation and look at the giant crescent and revolving Milky Way figures of both hemispheres in the night Sky.

These are on the world cosmic mountain, but if you are into the Greek myths he offers a unique understanding. I am only just beginning but I see that much of his needs to be read to take it in. Very near to what Norman and Grey Cloud are on about, just in depth.