I found this map which provides more detail of the occupied territories in the West Bank and Gaza

And this....which tells more about the overlay of activity in the West Bank territory.

November 19th, 2012, 03:44 PM

JayHawk

Re: Israel vs. Hamas: Again [MERGED]

RB I still fail to see the country called Palestine that was ripped away from its rightful owners by the evil jews.... it never existed.... and the Arabs and Muslim countries in the area have used the one foothold they have in the region to foment antisemitism from the word go...

November 19th, 2012, 04:08 PM

rareboy

Re: Israel vs. Hamas: Again [MERGED]

The UN intended a two state solution.

Which, of course...has never happened. Because the Palestinians have never accepted that their country was summarily turned over to create a separate, ascendant Jewish State as reparation for the second world war and about 1000 years of European mistreatment of the diaspora Jews.

But the Palestinians were granted autonomous territory on the West Bank and in Gaza. Which is being consumed by Jewish settlements that every western nation, including the US has said must not continue.

And this is why there is no solution.

sigh

November 19th, 2012, 04:13 PM

JayHawk

Re: Israel vs. Hamas: Again [MERGED]

Oh I get the background... the problem is two fold... while the Palestinians struggles to ever find themselves as a country able to care for itself it is bombarded by outside influence that seek to keep it unstable... meanwhile the Jewish state came to the conclusion that there would never be peace a LONG time ago so they started settling the Palestinian areas... so the Jewsih are wrong for settling but the Palestinians are equally wrong for not rejecting outside influence and grasping onto statehood when it was offered... this was the greatest all time failure of Yassir Arafat. After fighting for years to gain a state he rejected it when it was handed to him by Clinton.... but since he was teetering towards accepting the peace he was killed.

The solution is the world needs to let one side win and control the tiny stretches of land concerned... if the entire area was in Israeli control the Palestinians would not be ruthlessly exterminated... yet the opposite is not true....

November 19th, 2012, 04:24 PM

TX-Beau

Re: Israel vs. Hamas: Again [MERGED]

Problem with that is that "letting one side win," drags in the whole region, which drags in their allies - including us.

I'm sick of that region of the world as well, the fucking Romans were having these same problems in the Middle East.

November 19th, 2012, 04:31 PM

BostonPirate

Re: Israel vs. Hamas: Again [MERGED]

And the Israelis can't allow palestinians in their territory for fear of them gaining too much power in the Knesset.

November 19th, 2012, 05:39 PM

Jack Springer

Re: Israel vs. Hamas: Again [MERGED]

Quote:

Originally Posted by rareboy

Such an interesting question.

One notes that in the first instance, the support for homo rights does not result in an existential threat for anyone else....voting for Obama because he supports gay rights was likely one of a number of reasons that he was the overwhelming favourite of homos.

The unwavering support of Isaeli occupation of all the territory that was once Palestine because they tolerate homosexuality does potentially come with the cost of complicity in creation of an existential threat of individuals and communities.

That creates more of a moral dilemma. Just because someone threatens my rights as a homo, does not necessarily mean that I want to see them and their families suffer or that I want them wiped from the face of the earth. You are not alone though, in wishing that very thing.

What to do. What to do.

Fortunately or unfortunately, the crisis will continue long after I am dead and like all other conquests, diasporas and winner take all occupations....the future will tell the tale as to how successful this 65 year old experiment will be.

The answer is not to be a one-issue individual. Our belief system and morals are built upon a lifetime of experiences and education.

November 19th, 2012, 05:54 PM

Telstra

Re: Israel vs. Hamas: Again [MERGED]

Quote:

Originally Posted by JayHawk

Is that the guy who says eradicate the Palestinian people from Israel? Honestly?

I don't want that to be the solution BUT that people representing Palestinians have rejected every single overture made to them for the chance to be their own self defined people. I cannot support eradication but forcing them into refugee status into the countries that are fomenting the violence anyways... yes that could work... then the rockets would have to be launched over national borders and other avenues to punish nations who chose to attack Israel would then exist like sanctions and economic isolation..... pretty much every side is using Palestinians to beat out their anger with the other party...

NO, he is the Jewish guy living in Israel who wants peace with the Palestinian.
And your post earlier isn't a solution for peace.

November 19th, 2012, 06:00 PM

JayHawk

Re: Israel vs. Hamas: Again [MERGED]

Telstra there will never in your life or a thousand of your lives be a peace where Israelis and Palestinians are living in the same country... never.

So the solution I offered is the only one that will work... as pointed out there have been issues dealing with that region and the folks living on that land since the dawn of time.... not about to change anytime soon.

November 19th, 2012, 06:04 PM

Telstra

Re: Israel vs. Hamas: Again [MERGED]

Quote:

Originally Posted by rareboy

The UN intended a two state solution.

Which, of course...has never happened. Because the Palestinians have never accepted that their country was summarily turned over to create a separate, ascendant Jewish State as reparation for the second world war and about 1000 years of European mistreatment of the diaspora Jews.

But the Palestinians were granted autonomous territory on the West Bank and in Gaza. Which is being consumed by Jewish settlements that every western nation, including the US has said must not continue.

And this is why there is no solution.

sigh

When i was young, knew nothing about the Middle east, and saw the conflicts on TV,
I thought why don't Australia give Tasmania to the Jews and let ALL the Jews move to Tasmania, problems solved LOL. That was how young ignorant mind works.

Tasmania land mass is very impressive :)

November 20th, 2012, 02:07 AM

frankfrank

Re: Israel vs. Hamas: Again [MERGED]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Geiri85

You can't lock people up in a cage and then expect them to be peaceful.

The security walls have done things like separating occupants from their fields and gardens, and the occupied lands have been run as though they are huge prisons.

I've long wondered, wouldn't there be a possibility for peace if Israel would agree to STOP with those damned settlements, where they simply go in and *STEAL* Palestinian homes and tell the lifelong occupants to leave immediately?

I seem to recall there was nearly a peace agreement, but Israel adamantly refused to stop this imperialist settlement shit.

November 20th, 2012, 04:10 AM

rareboy

Re: Israel vs. Hamas: Again [MERGED]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jack Springer

The answer is not to be a one-issue individual. Our belief system and morals are built upon a lifetime of experiences and education.

I think you missed the point I was making.

November 20th, 2012, 11:24 AM

nafhoosier

Re: Israel vs. Hamas: Again [MERGED]

Quote:

Originally Posted by frankfrank

The security walls have done things like separating occupants from their fields and gardens, and the occupied lands have been run as though they are huge prisons.

I've long wondered, wouldn't there be a possibility for peace if Israel would agree to STOP with those damned settlements, where they simply go in and *STEAL* Palestinian homes and tell the lifelong occupants to leave immediately?

I seem to recall there was nearly a peace agreement, but Israel adamantly refused to stop this imperialist settlement shit.

You have a point on the settlements, but you forgot the biggest thing about the wall: It nearly stopped ALL suicide bombings that plagued Israel. That's a big freaking deal!

November 20th, 2012, 11:55 AM

BostonPirate

Re: Israel vs. Hamas: Again [MERGED]

Quote:

Originally Posted by JockBoy87

I think what you have built here is a caricature of my thoughts and opinions based on that conviction you want to believe every Israeli holds, or worse, that which is fed to you by the media. Remember that "apologists" are there to bring out factual and contrasting perspectives that tend to dampen hysterical interpretations of any state of affairs.

What is interesting to me is the disparity of living standards in the West Bank and Gaza Strip and how they correlate to their respective levels of violent activity. The same is true when reflecting in history, when the main enemies of Israel were neighboring states.

While we are having that discussion, it is profoundly frustrating how little attention is paid to the Arab states and their part in the history of the Palestinian territories. Why has nobody questioned Egypt's or Jordan's role in seizing the land partitioned for an Arab state for themselves. Moreover, why have those Arab states initiated war against Israel between 1948 and 1973 which resulted in the loss of territory to Israel to the detriment of the local Arab population? Unfortunately for the Palestinian people, the Palestinian nationalist movement came rather late, and their Modus Operandi, i.e. violence perpetrated against Israeli civilians directly caused the predicament they now find themselves in.

Now back to that caricature we were talking about earlier, here is my succinct opinion: A two state solution with an expanded Palestinian territory is the only one that is just and humane. In addition, nothing good ever came out of wars, only the diplomacy that accompanied them. So don't be so quick to paint "apologists." Conspiracy theories about genocide don't do any side any good either.

Let's treat that for a moment because I think a healthy injection of definitions is due here. Genocide has pretty clear criteria. Paraphrasing the UN General Assembly Resolution 260, they include (1) a clear, intentional, and willful conspiracy to exterminate an ethnic group, (2) a demonstrable effort to purposefully and indiscriminately destroy mass human life constituting said ethnic group.

What you have provided does not prove genocide because it lacks as its goal a purposeful destruction of the Palestinian ethnicity, or a targeted destruction of its civilian population. In fact, the numbers of civilian casualties perpetrated by Israel are not even a sizable fraction of a percentage of the Palestinian population of 11 million. We had in our history as Jews various ghettos across Europe and "Pales of Settlement" in Russia, including pogroms that killed many innocent people, but who would call that Genocide?

Finally, Israel does not target civilians. I believe you have Hamas and Israel mixed up in that regard. The Jews are not savages. We hold a quarter of the Nobel Prizes in physics for heaven's sake.

We are going to have to agree to disagree. I find issues with both sides, I am weary of anyone that makes excuses for either side, and I expect that until all parties, Israel included wants peace, and displays that by stopping the killing of children, then both sides are going to just kill each other I guess.

Perhaps we need to just take all the weapons away from both sides, wall them in for a century and then open the box up to see if they changed. This war is a contagion for international peace.

Sadly I doubt it will change even in a hundred years.

Fight this fight, but understand... there is no honor in killing children with bombs from drones. It's not ok when ANYONE does that, the USA included.

Global patience is running low for Israel and Palestine.

November 20th, 2012, 12:04 PM

Adrock-JD

Re: Israel vs. Hamas: Again [MERGED]

Quote:

Originally Posted by nafhoosier

You have a point on the settlements, but you forgot the biggest thing about the wall: It nearly stopped ALL suicide bombings that plagued Israel. That's a big freaking deal!

I also heard that suicide bombings were replaced by rockets because Hamas can now get them through Egypt from Iran and they are much more effective than homocide bombings.

November 20th, 2012, 12:09 PM

rareboy

Re: Israel vs. Hamas: Again [MERGED]

Well the good news is that both sides appear to be backing away from what would have been a ground invasion.

Fingers crossed that a ceasefire has been brokered today.

Although who knows for how long.

November 20th, 2012, 12:10 PM

BostonPirate

Re: Israel vs. Hamas: Again [MERGED]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Adrock-JD

I also heard that suicide bombings were replaced by rockets because Hamas can now get them through Egypt from Iran and they are much more effective than homocide bombings.

Egypt is supplying them. They have tunnels large enough to drive vehicles into the area, I heard on NPR. Astounding that we are putting up with that.

Why the hell does the Israeli army target children instead of bombing these tunnels? that's one degree of stank below the shittiness of the people that dug them in the first place.

Both sides want war.

November 20th, 2012, 02:32 PM

nafhoosier

Re: Israel vs. Hamas: Again [MERGED]

Quote:

Originally Posted by BostonPirate

Egypt is supplying them. They have tunnels large enough to drive vehicles into the area, I heard on NPR. Astounding that we are putting up with that.

Why the hell does the Israeli army target children instead of bombing these tunnels? that's one degree of stank below the shittiness of the people that dug them in the first place.

Both sides want war.

The Israeli army does NOT target children. [Text: Removed by Moderator]

http://pulse.me/s/fwGaS
In country after country, democratic elections have elevated Islamist governments that have strived to more accurately reflect the will of the Arab street, and no grievance more inflames Arab public opinion than the Palestinian cause. The fact that those new governments are not only Islamist but weak (or, in the case of the Syrian government-in-waiting, fighting a violent civil war) has also created far more fertile soil and room to maneuver for violent Islamist extremist groups.

- - - Updated - - -

an interesting article about the situation...

Quote:

http://www.nationaljournal.com/natio...phecy-20121120
In country after country, democratic elections have elevated Islamist governments that have strived to more accurately reflect the will of the Arab street, and no grievance more inflames Arab public opinion than the Palestinian cause. The fact that those new governments are not only Islamist but weak (or, in the case of the Syrian government-in-waiting, fighting a violent civil war) has also created far more fertile soil and room to maneuver for violent Islamist extremist groups.

Arab students protesting for Hamas in Jerusalem run for cover when a Hamas rocket heads there way.

Ironic, no?

November 21st, 2012, 12:18 AM

Mariatenebre

Re: Israel vs. Hamas: Again [MERGED]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Geiri85

You can't lock people up in a cage and then expect them to be peaceful.

No one is being locked up in a cage. The Pallys want war because they will never accept a Jewish nation.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Geiri85

Attacking is justifiable when your land is occupied by others.

The reason that Hamas is occupied is because Hamas will not accept Israel's right to exist. Further more the Pallys have no right to this land. It was originally Jewish controlled and still have a strong Jewish presence even after the Arabs ousted them from the Middle East. You should support Israel the only free and secular country in the Middle East instead of people who cut gay people's faces off.

November 21st, 2012, 12:30 AM

Mariatenebre

Re: Israel vs. Hamas: Again [MERGED]

Quote:

Originally Posted by MystikWizard

Just curious what people think about this map which shows the transformation of Israel over the years ...

There has been so much illegal activity over the decades between these groups ... that it really isn't as clear cut as simply saying "Well, Hamas fired rockets into Israel first."

Israel, under international law, appears to have illegally invaded territory that was not awarded to them, and has been condemned by the international community for not returning the land.

At the end of the day, this ugly conflict is nothing more than a land dispute. I understand that Jews feel they are entitled to the land as they originally occupied it in Biblical times.

However, since the Ottoman Empire occupied it for centuries later, and the Jewish people invaded a territory that they did not occupy for centuries because they felt that "Moses told them they had right to this land", they have to understand that there will be very serious and dire consequences ... that I don't feel the United States has any business being a part of.

What is clear is that Israel has greatly (and illegally) expanded its territory since what was originally decreed by the British Mandate. Then, they cry foul when attacked.

The reason Israel was founded has nothing to do with the Bible. It has to do with Jews being given a homeland that they desperately needed. Further more there never was a historical nation called Palestine. They were always under foreign rule by people such as the Ottomans and Jordanians. Plus there was always a strong Jewish presence in this land. Plus the Jews originally owned this land before they were ousted by the Arabs even though many remained. The only reason Palestine will not accept Israeli rule is because they are Jews.

The reason that they have expanded their territory is because they justly won it it war because the Palestinians will not accept their right to exist so they rightfully are occupying these people who wish them to be gone.

Again the US should be siding with the only free and secular country in the Middle East that respects gay rights. Not with people who cut gay people's faces off.

Quote:

Originally Posted by JustMe5

Yes, Israel is guilty of being the country with the most violations of United Nations human rights resolutions than any other country in the world. In recent years, Israeli Jews have taken it upon themselves to built illegal settlements outside the boundaries of Israel on Palestinian land. But of course, you won't hear about that in the mainstream media.

Yep, most Modern Jews descend from Jews who were kicked out of the "holy land" by Romans sometime around 70 AD. Many of these people eventually found their way into Europe and settled there. And yet, many centuries later, European Jews felt they had an entitlement claim to the lands of Palestine. Mind you, Jews weren't the only ethnic groups who resided in those lands in ancient times. But modern Jews feel that only they should have the privilege of living there. Preposterous.

The reason that Israel is so racked with supposed human rights violations is because the UN Human rights counsel has been high jacked by Muslims. They have Iran and Sudan on their supposed human rights counsel. They have Islamic nations there with apalling records of human rights and yet they focus on Israel.

Further more in actuality Jews have always had a presence in the Israel even when many of them were ousted by Romans and Arabs. However Arabs and Muslims live in peace in Israel and have more rights there then they do in the majority of Islamic nations. There are even Arab political parties. The reason that Palestine exists is simply because they will not accept Jewish rule. They accepted foreign Islamic rule but when it came to Jewish rule they refused.

November 21st, 2012, 12:40 AM

Telstra

Re: Israel vs. Hamas: Again [MERGED]

Bombs from the plane is dangerous.
Rockets from the ground is also dangerous.

So we are now saying that a country has full permission to invade other countries' territory, and we should look away as long as they are Gay Friendly?

Got it.

Zeno, this situation is so convoluted, however I will research what you say. Obviously, there is plenty of propaganda both sides spew and little details that both sides twist that it takes an enormous amount of focus to completely understand all of the facts in how things got to be how they are today.

However, I am having a difficult time taking up for Israel's original invasion and migration to the land we'll call "Palestine" when the Ottoman Empire controlled that land from 1453 to 1917. That would be similar to if Americans were outnumbered by Indians, and the entire Indian population declared war on the United States, insisting they had every right to this land.

Do you agree with the Zionist movement and the outcome of Arab-Israeli War? Keep in mind, I have no agenda here other than advocating the truth and what's right.

They have no right to this land. They are a miserable terrorist nation that is justly being whopped in war by the same people they wish to annihlate.

Next the comparison to the Native Americans is doubly foolish. There was a genocide on the Native Americans and Native Americans usually many times did not try to target innocent civilians. Many would have even have no problem living amongst the White Settlers. There are many Palestinians living in Israel so their numbers are not decreasing. Again as I mentioned Israel was given this land because they have a right to it and because they needed a homeland. There was no historical nation called Palestine, it was always ruled by foreigners such as the Ottomans and the Jordanians and it was only when they were under Jewish rule did they have a problem. However Palestinians live free in Israel and live better lives then they would in Muslim nations. Your map is bunk and was made by Pally Propagandists.

November 21st, 2012, 12:57 AM

Mariatenebre

Re: Israel vs. Hamas: Again [MERGED]

Quote:

Originally Posted by JustMe5

Some secular Jews in Israel support gay causes. But religious Jews? Forget about it. Israel is no different than many other countries where religion plays a strong role, in that homosexuality is considered an abomination.

Actually Jews in Israel are far more tolerant then Muslims. Hell there is even a gay pride parade in Israel annually

Quote:

Originally Posted by rareboy

Such an interesting question.

One notes that in the first instance, the support for homo rights does not result in an existential threat for anyone else....voting for Obama because he supports gay rights was likely one of a number of reasons that he was the overwhelming favourite of homos.

The unwavering support of Isaeli occupation of all the territory that was once Palestine because they tolerate homosexuality does potentially come with the cost of complicity in creation of an existential threat of individuals and communities.

That creates more of a moral dilemma. Just because someone threatens my rights as a homo, does not necessarily mean that I want to see them and their families suffer or that I want them wiped from the face of the earth. You are not alone though, in wishing that very thing.

What to do. What to do.

Fortunately or unfortunately, the crisis will continue long after I am dead and like all other conquests, diasporas and winner take all occupations....the future will tell the tale as to how successful this 65 year old experiment will be.

In actuality Israel does not occupy all of Palestine. Plus Israel has only taken lands that they won in war with the Palestinians who want them dead. It is suicidal to let your enemy have land. Palestine could have peace from the beginning and a state of their own but instead they want the eradication of Israel and all Jews.

As for people who wish me dead. Those who wish me dead I wish the same on them. To do anything is is suicide. We should never support the people who wish us dead. If you were a gay person in Palestine then you would have to go to Israel. The Palestinians who support terror deserve to suffer.

Quote:

Originally Posted by BostonPirate

I'm not an idiot buddy. Take a look at that map. There are only three options available... Either the occupants of that land were forcibly evacuated a la pogroms, or they were killed a la Holocaust, or they are rounded up and crunched into that little bit of land into camps, with meager existences, like the holocaust.

What's else? Self Deportation? IS that a policcy you agree with?

Don;t tell me what proof is needed, pal. There's the map. Tell me where the people went. To disneyland?

I am not saying that the Palestinians have clean hands, what I am saying is I respect the Israelis enough to expect them to TRY to have cleaner hands.

They haven't in decades and as soon as we get past the childish antics of Nah ah and he hit me first, the sooner a solution will be found.

YOU tell me what that maps means for the people that USED to live there? What are the options, Mr Logic? Are you so wed to the concept of being an apologist that you can't see the forest through the trees.

Explain to me why these numbers make sense. explain to me how this is a measured response that WONT start a war in which thousands of Israelis are killed?

You have to have your head examined if you think supporting this war is good for Israel.

First of all they have not done a genocide on these people. Israel is full of Palestinians living in the country who are treated far better then in Palestine. Plus as another person has said this map is bunk.

November 21st, 2012, 01:02 AM

Kulindahr

Re: Israel vs. Hamas: Again [MERGED]

Quote:

Originally Posted by BostonPirate

Explain to me why these numbers make sense. explain to me how this is a measured response that WONT start a war in which thousands of Israelis are killed?

You have to have your head examined if you think supporting this war is good for Israel.

The numbers don't tell the whole story. Hamas' rockets aren't exactly targeted, and there's no telling where they'll hit -- but the Israelis have gotten good at paying attention to warnings so they can get out of the way. OTOH, even though Israel's responses are well targeted, Hamas insists on using its population as hostages, putting their supply and command and other legitimate targets where there are lots of people.

So it's to be expected the numbers will be lopsided. I have no way of doing an analysis to decide if they should be this lopsided, but then there's the question of what the Israelis should do -- just sit tight and thus encourage Hamas' barbarism? To put it another way, how does a modern society respond to seventh-century tactics?

November 21st, 2012, 01:19 AM

Kulindahr

Re: Israel vs. Hamas: Again [MERGED]

Quote:

Originally Posted by BostonPirate

Egypt is supplying them. They have tunnels large enough to drive vehicles into the area, I heard on NPR. Astounding that we are putting up with that.

I've wondered about that. My dad's solution was creative: send in UN troops to occupy the area, then use underground nukes to turn the border zone into gravel, then excavate it all and leave a border defined by a trench half a kilometer wide, a quarter kilometer deep, running clear to Israeli territory. The idea: let them try to tunnel underwater.

My concept was to keep track, and every time a new tunnel was found, fill it with concrete.

Quote:

Originally Posted by BostonPirate

Why the hell does the Israeli army target children instead of bombing these tunnels? that's one degree of stank below the shittiness of the people that dug them in the first place.

Probably something about explosion debris flying into Egypt.

November 21st, 2012, 01:21 AM

Kulindahr

Re: Israel vs. Hamas: Again [MERGED]

Quote:

Originally Posted by nafhoosier

And that map before is biased BS. Israel was attacked FIRST in 1967 by other Arab countries.

There is serious evidence to the contrary. The best guesstimate is that they invoked the Bush Doctrine before Bush.

I'm guessing some people will call this legitimate Palestinian resistance?

November 21st, 2012, 06:11 AM

rareboy

Re: Israel vs. Hamas: Again [MERGED]

Some people might.

Probably no one who posts here.

Some people thought this was legitimate too.

Baruch Goldstein was an Israeli responsible for the 1994 massacre in Hebron, in which he shot and killed 29 and wounded another 125 Muslim worshipers inside the Ibrahimi Mosque. Goldstein was a supporter of Kach, an Israeli political party that advocated the expulsion of Arabs from Israel and the Palestinian Territories.

But probably no one who posts here.

We get it. Hamas are terrorists. No one is disputing this.

And no one with an iota of sense believes that Gaza won't eventually be re-occupied and that any remnants of an autonomous Palestinian state will be wiped away forever. It is inevitable.

And so is the world at war.

November 21st, 2012, 06:13 AM

BostonPirate

Re: Israel vs. Hamas: Again [MERGED]

Quote:

Originally Posted by rareboy

Some people might.

Probably no one who posts here.

Some people thought this was legitimate too.

Baruch Goldstein was an Israeli responsible for the 1994 massacre in Hebron, in which he shot and killed 29 and wounded another 125 Muslim worshipers inside the Ibrahimi Mosque. Goldstein was a supporter of Kach, an Israeli political party that advocated the expulsion of Arabs from Israel and the Palestinian Territories.

But probably no one who posts here.

We get it. Hamas are terrorists. No one is disputing this.

And no one with an iota of sense believes that Gaza won't eventually be re-occupied and that any remnants of an autonomous Palestinian state will be wiped away forever. It is inevitable.

And so is the world at war.

It's a slow mo car accident that we've all agreed to just let happen.

November 21st, 2012, 06:48 AM

AngolaZee

Re: Israel vs. Hamas: Again [MERGED]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jack Springer

Recently there was another thread on CEP denouncing any gay person who did not vote for Obama -- the main reason was Obama's support of gay rights and the lack of support on the republican side.

I now ask how could any gay guy not support a country who is very liberal concerning gay rights and support a group of people who do not believe in your rights to exist to the point that they would kill you?

That doesn't make any sense to me at all.

Simple, Obama doesn't build settlements in other people's land, Obama does not insist on America being called a Christian state. Would you support a racist, rapist or murderer just because he was pro-gay.NO So this argument you are trying to push above is stupid to say the least

November 21st, 2012, 07:23 AM

AngolaZee

Re: Israel vs. Hamas: Again [MERGED]

Besides it wasn't so much Obama's support for gays that garnered their support but the Republicans hatred of them

November 21st, 2012, 08:09 AM

AngolaZee

Re: Israel vs. Hamas: Again [MERGED]

Israel has every right to protect itself from terrorists but when it systematically steals land using settlements it loses the moral high ground. What started as a fight for survival against Islamist extremists now looks like a free for all land grab backed by military power. Forcible removal of people from their homes to make way for Jewish settlers is exactly what was happening in South Africa during Apartheid.

November 21st, 2012, 08:15 AM

JayHawk

Re: Israel vs. Hamas: Again [MERGED]

Ok...so then you put them in a nice tidy box and build a wall.... you even forcibly uproot your own settlers... and still the rockets fly towards you...

I do not think that you understand that the IDEA was a Palestinian State but now the REALITY is a proxy war. With neither side giving two shits about Palestinians...

November 21st, 2012, 09:08 AM

AngolaZee

Re: Israel vs. Hamas: Again [MERGED]

Yes the rockets will fly because Israel has blockaded Gaza restricting free trade. Some of the money has to go through Israel first before being handed over to Palestine. Israel shoots at farmers in Gaza when planting their crops, what do they think they are planting anti-Jew maize. This is not purely a proxy war, the other Arab countries got involved because they saw their brethren being treated like scum

November 21st, 2012, 09:11 AM

AngolaZee

Re: Israel vs. Hamas: Again [MERGED]

Israel has never reverted back to the UN resolution borders which ALL arab countries agree with. I dont think any Palestinians genuinely think all Jews can be forcibly removed from Israel and an Arab state created instead. All they are asking for is their land as per UN resolution and all their get is increasing settlements

November 21st, 2012, 09:31 AM

JayHawk

Re: Israel vs. Hamas: Again [MERGED]

So rockets smuggled into Gaza.....hmmmmm I wonder why they choke point shipments..... whenever they let their foot off the choke points due to international pressure then rockets are smuggled and launched...

Neither side is above board. However I tend to side with the country that supports the rule of law and has somewhat a sense of equality. I don't think that sentiment and therefore that support is ever going to change... not just from me but from the western world.

So as was aptly posted above... round and round we go....

Out of curiosity what of the Arabs and Palestinians living in Israel and having ten million times the quality of life because of it? It is argued above that the worry is power in the Knesset BUT 1.5 million will not overcome the will of 7.6 million so that is a false fear...

One country is the only solution... imho

November 21st, 2012, 09:42 AM

AngolaZee

Re: Israel vs. Hamas: Again [MERGED]

They wouldnt be living in Israel in the first place if their land was truely free. They are looking for economic opportunities denied to them by the blockade. Of course some of them were born there and have been there for generations.

Israel would not need to worry about rockets being shipped to Gaza if it was not illegally occupying Palestinian land as per UN resolution

November 21st, 2012, 09:53 AM

AngolaZee

Re: Israel vs. Hamas: Again [MERGED]

Khaled Meshal, Hamas's Damascus-based political bureau chief, said the organization was willing to cooperate with "a resolution to the Arab-Israeli conflict which included a Palestinian state based on 1967 borders", provided that Palestinian refugees hold the right to return to Israel and that East Jerusalem be the new nation's capital

from the horses mouth, very reasonable request to adhere to 1967 borders. Israel ....erh Netanyahu refuses with the idiotic excuse that those borders would be indefensible.

Israel No1 priority is LAND not peace, that is why it is not in their interest to have peace with Palestine because they would then lose their main reason for grabbing land

November 21st, 2012, 11:03 AM

JayHawk

Re: Israel vs. Hamas: Again [MERGED]

Quote:

Originally Posted by AngolaZee

They wouldnt be living in Israel in the first place if their land was truely free. They are looking for economic opportunities denied to them by the blockade. Of course some of them were born there and have been there for generations.

Israel would not need to worry about rockets being shipped to Gaza if it was not illegally occupying Palestinian land as per UN resolution

BULLSHIT

The folks running the show behind the Palestinians want the destruction of jews... nothing more and nothing less. Peace and their own state was offered to Arafat but he balked because that is NOT what the goal of the HAMAS organization is for Palestine.

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Quote:

Originally Posted by AngolaZee

Khaled Meshal, Hamas's Damascus-based political bureau chief, said the organization was willing to cooperate with "a resolution to the Arab-Israeli conflict which included a Palestinian state based on 1967 borders", provided that Palestinian refugees hold the right to return to Israel and that East Jerusalem be the new nation's capital

from the horses mouth, very reasonable request to adhere to 1967 borders. Israel ....erh Netanyahu refuses with the idiotic excuse that those borders would be indefensible.

Israel No1 priority is LAND not peace, that is why it is not in their interest to have peace with Palestine because they would then lose their main reason for grabbing land

Right you just gloss over the ...we want to take Jerusalem from you part... check.

November 21st, 2012, 01:21 PM

AngolaZee

Re: Israel vs. Hamas: Again [MERGED]

East Jerusalem, Israel can have West Jerusalem problem solved what is so hard to comprehend about that. East Jerusalem is already facing toward Gaza anyway so no biggy.

November 21st, 2012, 01:24 PM

AngolaZee

Re: Israel vs. Hamas: Again [MERGED]

Quote:

Originally Posted by JayHawk

BULLSHIT

The folks running the show behind the Palestinians want the destruction of jews... nothing more and nothing less. Peace and their own state was offered to Arafat but he balked because that is NOT what the goal of the HAMAS organization is for Palestine.

I see Palestinians i.e Hamas running the show, the fact that they get support from other does not mean they dont want freedom from Israel Occupation.

What Arafat was offered was rubbish , he would have been a traitor to accept it. You dont accept shit offered to you just for the sake of peace, when you say "their own state" you conveniently hide the specifics of the rubbish offered

November 21st, 2012, 01:26 PM

JayHawk

Re: Israel vs. Hamas: Again [MERGED]

Specifics such as? You seem quite knowledgeable .... illuminate us.

November 21st, 2012, 01:30 PM

JayHawk

Re: Israel vs. Hamas: Again [MERGED]

Oh and please don't tell me right of return since the Jews owned the land well before Palestinians did if we are to go back in time and grant land ownership....

November 21st, 2012, 01:40 PM

AngolaZee

Re: Israel vs. Hamas: Again [MERGED]

Thats where you are wrong, can you proove that the entirety of Israel in its current state and form was owned by Jews no. Some areas were uninhabited some areas were occupied by Jews, some areas were occupied by Arabs. You can not just generalise and say Jews owned the land

The existence of Israel is based entirely on the Jews right to return and yet you want to deny Jews the same. Isnt that being a hypocrite

November 21st, 2012, 02:02 PM

JayHawk

Re: Israel vs. Hamas: Again [MERGED]

I understand you to mean i want to deny Palestinians?

Yet Palestinians, Jews and Armenians, Christians and Muslims still live in Israel because they are tolerant of others. Yet can the same be said of the Palestinian areas?

November 21st, 2012, 02:08 PM

AngolaZee

Re: Israel vs. Hamas: Again [MERGED]

Quote:

The UN Security Council has declared the annexation of the Golan Heights and East Jerusalem to be "null and void" and continues to view the territories as occupied.[189][190] The International Court of Justice, principal judicial organ of the United Nations, asserted, in its 2004 advisory opinion on the legality of the construction of the Israeli West Bank barrier, that the lands captured by Israel in the Six-Day War, including East Jerusalem, are occupied territory.[191]