An Atheist's View On Life Vs. A Christian View

I always believed God existed. I don't recall a time when I didn't believe that. I know growing up in a religious family motivated this. I remember many days lying on my back in our living room looking up at the cloth picture on the wall with the words " In God We Trust" printed on it and thinking, just thinking about this God. Who was He? Church was never really able to answer that question for me...so I didn't seek God. Instead, I sought all other kinds of things.

How anyone can look up into the sky and disbelieve in that some Higher Power exists? How is it that the sun and moon never ever get confused and appear in the other's place? Who else but God could have master-minded that?

About a week ago, I responded to a thread where someone was talking about the the universe creating our solar system. The universe? Creating? Nothing can create without a mind and will to do so. The universe has no will and no mind.

I am posting this thread not to argue and not to really say anything that hasn't been said here before. I'm posting this thread to say that the little girl who once lay for hours looking up at those "In God We Trust" words printed on a wall hanging has been found by God. I was never an Atheist, never Agnostic and have been a Christian for nearly 15 years. We are often misunderstood for wanting to share the message of our hope in Christ and sure we don't always handle the Word of God properly nor our approach to unbelievers, but still we try.

Do I want you to know the hope I have today in Christ? Yes, I do!

If anyone wants to know who Jesus is, why He came and how to enter into a relationship with Him, I'm willing to help all I can.

In all our "conversations," I don't recall ever seeing your take on eternity. From most of what I say, it appears to me that it is inconsequential, i.e. ppsstt ... your here; ppsstt ... your gone. I have read that there is a theory (yeah, there is a theory about everything but) that space is limited. That makes no sense to me. But what about eternity? Is it limited? Do we affect it at all? Just thoughts.

I don't see eternity as limited in the forward direction. Time began, of course, with the big bang in the opposite direction. (That may make the term an inappropriate one for what I just said, though.)

I WILL say, however, that an eternal life is something to be very frightened of, to dread as worse than any Satanic punishment. It won't matter one iota whether that eternity is sitting at the feet of a God or burning in brimstone; it is something to be avoided if at all possible.

What do you mean "sitting at the fee of God" for eternity? Were you taught that all we will do in Heaven is sit or kneel in front of God and sing "Holy, holy, holy" for an eternity? If that were the case, I would have to agree that there might be little difference between Heaven and Hell.

However, I don't believe it to be the case. I expect to wander around Heaven and the new Earth, among other things, enjoying creation as it once was, but with out the fear of sin. I expect that Heaven and eternity will be everything that Adam gave up and more.

But it doesn't matter. Whether sitting at a god's feet or wandering the entire universe with a trillion trillion planets for a playground, in just a relative blink of an eye every possible experience will have been yours a million times over. And you will STILL have an eternity to exist - a fate far, far worse than any death could ever be.

No, give me a clean death anytime rather than an eternity of boredom quickly culminating in madness. The human mind, whether corporeal or spirit, is not equipped to handle unending time without change.

You are right that the earthly human mind is not equipped to handle unending time without change. Our natural human minds are subject to quick boredom, along with a host of other negative emotions. Though there is much of worth in our human minds/bodies and in this present earth, it is fallen and full of woes as well.

When Jesus Christ returns for us, we will be raised up as spiritual beings with new bodies, as Jesus Christ was before us. Currently, as temporal beings, we were designed for a temporary situation here on earth. I trust that our eternal beings will be created suitably for an eternal existence, as our Creator God is more aware of our needs than even we are. God is a brilliant Creator and He may continue to create new things throughout eternity.

Let's both assume for a moment that God does exist. Consider the ability you have to grasp what is here and now in your corporeal mind and, without meaning to "pump you up", your grasp of so many things on other pages amazes me.

Anyway, consider, if you were given the mental capacity to deal with this world, would it seem likely that the same would be true for the next? I think so.

You're making an awful lot of assumptions:There is a godThat god loves us and wants us for companionship, not for food or other unknown purpose.That god is omnipotentThat god is omniscientThat god does not lieThat god is not madIt is possible, in the god's "universe", to make an entity that can survive eternal life mentally

Too many assumptions to be likely at all that a god that made us ALSO made us mentally capable of surviving an eternity. It is one of the unsolved problems of religion; once one begins digging into the underlying concept it requires ever more assumptions. Assumptions without even a shred of evidence or reason to believe they even might be true.

I'm really not using any assumptions with the exception that we both move to the same page for a moment and "assume" God does exist. Let's set His attributes aside for a moment and consider my question. If God gave us the mental capacity to deal with life as we know it here, wouldn't it seem He would do the same with the "new life" in His Eternal kingdom?

If His purpose is to supply a long term supply of meat for the angels, no. Or to just watch the ants scurrying about on earth, no.If He cannot do it, no.If His "universe" does not allow it, no.If He is mad (insane by our standards), not necessarily. A sadist perhapsIf He does not know how, no.

See what I mean? More and more assumptions to come up with a "yes" answer. It's like saying that because I can build a soapbox derby car I can and will build a starship.

If you think of eternity as being that bit of existence tacked onto the end of your life, as something you have to wait for, then it cannot be "eternity," because what you are waiting for has, at least, a beginning.

Eternity = Infinity = no beginning, no end. The only experience of Eternity is right here and now. The instant now. If you tried to measure it, you would fine it so small, it's immeasurable. "Infinitely small."

Think of a circle, any sized circle you wish. Can you "measure" the center? No you can't. You can use geometric calculation to indicate where the center is located, and you can mark a pin-prick point in that location, but then you can measure the size of the pin-prick. And the pin-prick has a location also that you can point to as its center. And so on, and so on. Each time you mark the center you find it gets smaller and smaller. Thus the actual center is "infinitely" small, meaning it cannot be measured.

The center of yours and my life, our existence, is just like that. We are, individually, a manifestation of the Infinite, the Eternal. The manifestation is momentary, we only last a maximum of 110 years, most of us not even that. But our manifestation, our life, is finite., it has a beginning and an end.

So, what does this mean? It means you are already in touch with Eternity. It is right here and now. You don't have to go anywhere, you don't have to wait for even one second before meeting it. This very moment, so small in terms of our sense of time that it's immeasurable.

Wilderness, thank you for educating me on gravity, but I never asked "how were the moon and sun held in the sky" nor did I state that I didn't know why. The point I was making was "how do they know, each one, when to appear and when to fall into the backdrop to greet the other?" Who but God could make this possible?

"How is it that the sun and moon never ever get confused and appear in the other's place?"

And the answer is still gravity. Not a god, not a demon, not an ET, not any kind of intelligence. Gravity is why the sun and moon never get confused and change places.

Nor, in spite of the poetry, do they ever "fall into the backdrop to greet the other". The earth turns; the sun and moon do not "greet each other" in any form at all. They do, after all, remain 93,000,000 miles apart; about the same distance as the earth and sun. Or do the earth and sun "greet each other" as well?

Everything is exactly as it needs to be for us to exist here on earth. Not off just a little here or a little there, but precisely suitable. That's remarkable! And it will remain that way until the coming of the Lord.

Tell that to the people living under drought conditions for year after year. Or those killed by a volcanic eruption nearby. Explain it to the one who has just watched a hurricane or tornado destroy not only their home but their food supply for the next year (crops) and faces death by either exposure or starvation.

There is actually very little of this planet that is inhabitable by man without massive effort and a good deal of changes to the environment. The garden of Eden is long gone and what is left is not particularly conducive to our humanity.

That we can survive at all is a great testament to the powers of evolution, adapting us to a hostile environment. Not to a god that made the environment to match what we are.

Things had to be just so for us to EXIST. The precision met for our EXISTENCE is amazing! No one said anything about ease of life or the absence of pain and natural hardships here. Remember that the world is under a curse and is to be worked by the "sweat of the brow". We can't expect Eden here in this fallen world. But praise be to God, who has given His promise and will create the new earth and new heavens for us!

Not at all - that concept is based on the premise that the universe was designed for our bodies and is something we have to show. On the contrary, we know that our bodies are the way they because of the environment the earth provides; we are as we are because of the way the earth is, not the other way around. It's called "evolution".

We understand as well that there is no "precision" at all in what the earth is. It is a matter of chance producing what it will and man evolving to fit it, not design producing something we would like, 4.5 billion years after creating it.

Its just a matter of pointing out the faith involved, that we are here, able to ponder our own existences to this very degree..... that in order to do so, does in fact need some great precision to allow for that. To think that matter and chance produced this without any direction or will from an outside source, a cause for the incredible effect we see, is simply an astounding amount of faith. The fact that might just be so random, and because of chance and evolution as you say, is so incredibly defying of the odds, shows its quite the miracle no matter how you look at it. An incredible amount of faith is needed in that "thing" that has yet to be known or suggested, that "isn't" or couldn't be god. You can't really fault people for saying "hey, this idea of God could be the kind of thing that could get this done." As far as options that have been put on the table. Its not just pulled out of thin air for comfort or explanatory reasons, it actually makes sense for whatever it is you want to think is a more viable option I think. Doesn't that seem kind of fair to you? I know where you stand, but just trying to get you to consider the whole picture, and that it isn't really so crazy as its being suggested.....

The following was witten some years ago in response to a newspaper article that depicted an Atheist as a hate mongering and arrogant beast. The response was never published, but did lead to a public debate. At the close of the debate, I was met by a group of fun loving Christians who accused me of being a communist and a mouth piece for the devil.

What Atheism Is:Atheism is---accepting life as the ultimate of human existence.Atheism is---understanding that the purpose for life, your life, is defined by you.Atheism is---an awakening, a sense, a feeling of life. It is the reasoned knowledge of who you are, what you are, where you are, and the purpose of your existence. It is an absence of ignorance, an embracing of knowledge.Atheism is---a cleansing of the mind, clarity of thought and of living.Atheism is---to embrace the unique preciousness of intelligent life and the unparalleled and fantastic capacity to reason----that is you.Atheism is---the freedom to think freely, to act freely without the stigma and guilt of contrived religious sin and government promoted social guilt.Atheism is---a respect for and a love of self and in that, a love of life, a respect for life.Atheism is---the ultimate empowerment of the individual----“I am”.Atheism is---a philosophy of self, self realization, self worth and with that, the greatest contribution to the human community, a reasoning, self sustaining, and self quantifying human being.

The name Jesus is false, the true Hebrew name is Yehowshuwa. And what do you mean by 'relationship' do you actually mean worship, and do you actually think Jesus is God? The Messiah say the greatest commandment is to worship his father Yehowah. Mark 12:29 And Yehowshuwa answered him, The first of all the commandments is, Hear , O Israel; (the Lord) Yehowah our God is one (Lord) Yehowah: And thou shalt love (the Lord) Yehowah thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind, and with all thy strength: this is the first commandment. (Direct quote from Deut 6:4 which has his Father's name written, often replaced with Lord)

Thanks for sharing and revealing your heart for those who don't yet know our Lord. You make good points and show a desire to humbly share your hope. A hope not only for this life, but more importantly for the one yet to come. A hope that will not disappoint. May God bless you and cause you to overflow more and more with His hope and love!

First of all I would like to thank essayist for her beautiful testimony. What non-believers do not understand is that God is not to be sought after. If you are willing and have an open heart, he will find you. And yes God created all of the universe, planets, etc. I saw where one gentlemen said this was because of gravity. Nonsense. Who created gravity? Something cannot come from nothing. The great creator (God) has done a miraculous job in creating everything possible. Thank you again essayist.

You want evidence? There is all kinds of evidence, you are too self absorbed to look for it. Read this and rest assured you know nothing of this when you speak of science. Science Increasingly Makes the Case for God. http://www.wsj.com/articles/eric-metaxa … 1419544568

What has science discovered about the beginning of the universe?

Astronomers now find that they have painted themselves into a corner because they have proven, by their own methods, that the world began abruptly in an act of creation to which you can trace the seeds of every star, every planet, every living thing in this cosmos and on the earth. And they have found that all this happened as a product of forces they cannot hope to discover.

This most beautiful system of the sun, planets, and comets could only proceed from the counsel and dominion of an intelligent and powerful Being. And if the fixed stars are the centers of other like systems, these, being formed by the likewise counsel, must be all subject to the dominion of One.

For the scientist who has lived by his faith in the power of reason, the story ends like a bad dream. He has scaled the mountains of ignorance; he is about to conquer the highest peak; as he pulls himself over the final rock, he is greeted by a band of theologians who have been sitting there for centuries. http://www.tedmontgomery.com/bblovrvw/c … -evol.html

Sorry, I don't sign in to anything in order to hear a sermon founded on belief rather than fact.

No, astronomers still show that formation of the earth took billions of years. Your statement is, in fact, a complete falsehood. Nor have they found that it happened as a product of forces they cannot hope to discover; the very statement is a logical fallacy.

The system is beautiful because we live here and find beauty wherever we are. Not because of a god making it. Nor is there any indication that a god made other systems as well; this is again only wishful thinking without any supporting evidence.

And finally, a quote from your second link: "For all the matter, energy, nine space dimensions, and even time, each suddenly and simultaneously came into being from some source beyond itself.". Only a theologian, not understanding even the little we know of the physics of the big bang, would ever make such a foolish statement. It's why I don't read such stuff - the basis for it is barbarian myths rather than observation and reason and is thus very nearly worthless as a source of knowledge.

So you are so self absorbed you even admit you are so closed minded you can't even investigate any world view that differs from yours, yours by the way being that of a tiny minority of America's population which of course an elitist like you knows are nothing but followers of barbarians (your word not mine). Well at least you admit to your prejudice. It is understandable that having that attitude you concoct the conclusions you do. And understandable that when it comes to barbarians your world view, that there is no God of the Bible, has been the spawn of barbarians and barbarous works throughout history. The first link I gave you has nothing to do sermons but is about science increasingly making the case for God and the second link I quoted from, well I'm really not sure what it is that really intimidates you about Dr. Ankerberg, is it his PhD ? Where is yours? Maybe this will help you to understand what he is really talking about...http://cavern.uark.edu/~cdm/creation/universeorigin.htm whoops, another PhD, guess you won't sign in to that either. But what the hey, we all know I'm just talking to the wall.

And mister know it all without doing your homework, the statement I posted which you claim "is a complete falsehood" wasn't penned by me or any theologian but by Robert Jastrow (September 7, 1925 – February 8, 2008) an American astronomer, physicist and cosmologist. He was a leading NASA scientist, populist author and futurist.

You are so transparent. All you had to do was Google what I wrote and you'd discover that it was written by a scientist with credentials you couldn't hope to muster in a lifetime.

Even in the Vilenkin model, quantum foam had to have existed. Yet, quantum foam is something, not nothing. And there is a basic mathematical concept named "the empty set," which contains zero elements, and from such, nothing can arise. This is a mathematical fact. Something creates something. It cannot be the other way around.

Identical proof to the claim that it is real. When you make up imaginary entities that are undetectable you kind of set yourself up to be asked for proof. Until it is provided, that entity shall forever remain only imagination.

And when you claim that your made up entity is true and real it goes beyond setting yourself up; you are virtually begging to be asked for proof. Much better that such a creature is presented for what it is; nothing more than make believe regardless of how much faith one might have or how much they might believe.

You speak a lot of words, but still you offer no proof that God doesn't exist. The burden of proof is on you and others like you, not on me. So until you can prove that he doesn't exist, you set your own self up to be seen as hot air blowing, producing nothing. At least in my eyes. But I am hoping you will some day see the truth.

Essayist, go back to school and learn some simple logic. When you claim the existence of something which has no form, no means of recognition, relying upon only the mental desires of yours and others, it is not possible to disprove it. You cannot dis-prove something that does not exist...

Thank you wilderness. Not a side step.. the truth. It is beyond a humans minds perception to really understand God because all we know are "earthly" things. Very few, like yourself, just cannot wrap their minds around a creator.

Of course not wilderness. Can you back up your nonsensical view that there is no God? I do not believe you can. Quote science all you want, it is as flawed as anything else man made. Do you believe Jesus Christ existed? Even the most hardened atheists have had to agree that Christ was alive on this earth and did what the Bible says he did. No science needed, it is only men like yourself who are attempting to out think a deity such as God. Only to fail again and again I might add. There is no proof that Julius Caesar existed, but there is proof that Jesus existed. Look it up. Even your own beloved atheists cannot deny this fact.

You know better than that. No atheist believes that Christ performed miracles, raised the dead or turned water to wine. Outside of ancient writings from unknown authors there is exactly zero evidence of such nonsense. That he existed is probable, that he was a god is impossible.

So I ask again for evidence of your god. Evidence beyond those writings. Or do you fall back onto the position that anything you claim has to be truth until proven otherwise? The world doesn't work that way, you know - claims require proof they are true, not proof from others that they are wrong.

I cannot prove that God existed no more than you or ANYONE can prove that he does not exist. From one of your fellow atheist quotes: It is my understanding that most biblical scholars regardless of their theism/atheism regard Jesus Christ as a historical figure who existed.

Since atheism is simply lack of god belief, calling an atheist who also regards Jesus as not even being an historical figure as a radical atheist makes no sense as all atheists do not have god belief, and that lack of god belief is what defines an atheist not what kind of historical figure she/he believes to have existed. Theists could also reject Jesus as a historical figure, are they then radical theists?

You cannot prove your god, but believe in it and expect others to do the same based on your unsupported claim. Do you also believe everything you read on the internet, or is it just supposed to be others that maintain such foolish attitudes that anything in print has to be true?

I do believe that "biblical scholars" are all much the same - start with a belief in a god and manipulate the words to maintain that belief with the only evidence being the very words they are twisting out of shape.

What's with the "Jesus did not exist" rant? I agree he most likely did exist and said so - why do you keep saying that atheists think he did not? While there is no definitive proof, and corroborating evidence is slim, it is enough to tentatively agree there was a man called Jesus at about the right time frame.

And what are you proclaiming that an atheist believes, beyond that there is a need for supporting evidence prior to declaring truth?

But yes, atheists are about as consistent as believers. Some believers believe in beheading people while others don't, some believe in the trinity while others don't and some believe the pope is connected to God while others don't. Belief does not seem very consistent regardless of the root of that belief, does it?

Jonny...... I choose not to interact with you and your delusions. So, in the future do not interact with me again. You have nothing to say that I want to hear. Anyone who calls my God names and mocks him on a regular basis cannot be taken seriously. Thank you. Have a nice day.

When is the last time you have heard of a Christian wanting to behead people? You are talking about oranges and apples when you bring up Islam. Islam is a cult. They live by works. Christians have a loving God and they live by the promise of salvation through Jesus Christ.

The term used was "believer", not "Christian". And in fact, there have been several beheadings lately by believers in the same god you profess to believe in. That they use a different label doesn't seem relevant; they believe in the same god and follow it's orders just as you do.

Sure, Christians have a loving god. One that "Hardened Pharoah's heart" in order that it had an excuse to murder thousands of innocent first born children. Right - you may ignore such atrocities as you wish but others recognize them as real attributes of the entity being talked of.

Wilderness ....... this is you peoples main problem. You ASSUME too much. ALL of the Bible is true. The OT is no longer for gentiles, it is for Jews. The new covenant was created in the NT when Jesus died on the cross for all's sin. "NEW COVENANT." I really think you need to educate yourself in these things that you are claiming falsely.

JT, have you not read the history of Europe during the 16th, 17th and 18th centuries? Christian to the T. So much superstition, so much cruelty and judgment. So much torture and cajoling people into believing about a fictitious god. Beheaded, broken on the wheel, hung-drawn-and-quartered. We did it, boy-oh. People of Islam are just a bit behind the times, old-fashioned. These days, there are much more efficient and agonizing methods, like the TAZER and Water Boarding and Brain Washing.

Oh, by the way, who has been teaching and training those people in their torture techniques today? Good christian people of your own country? There is a saying that speaks of "pot calling the kettle black," or something like that.

It just shows that your beliefs in your god are nothing more than a smoke screen of convenience for self-deception.

All things were created, except for God. Why can we not also go further to say that you and I came from nowhere? Actually we could say that, but that would be a lie. All things were created by Him, including you and I and gravity as well. What makes no sense to me is how anyone could believe that gravity or any other force just could suddenly come forth from nothing, yet disbelieve that there is a Creator of that force and all other things besides.

Why is it so easy to say that us (or the universe) coming from nothing is impossible but that God coming from nothing is just the truth? It seems to me that they're both equally as perplexing but once you throw in the idea of an all-powerful, all-knowing creator, things become even more fantastical and unlikely.

I looked back after observing this exchange, and perhaps you are newer to these boards.... But this thread is only two days old, and she posted on it both of those days, as well as today. I have observed people go for days without posting in a thread, to come back to it later on. At least I know this is true for me and many others here.

I have never been a part of the forums. So, yes I am new to the forums on this site. How can you say these things about me when you do not even know me? I suppose we should choose not to interact period. God bless you Aime!!

Of course. Knock yourself out. I have only commented on this forum and one other. Hope you have a great day. But, like I said please stop interacting with me. For you and I to try and agree to disagree is frivolous.

I'm on my phone so perhaps I'm viewing the page differently, but there are three tabs - Hubs, Q&A, and Forums. If you look under Forums you can see that 20+ months ago he had posted several threads himself, who knows how many he participated in.

What makes no sense to me is how someone can say everything has a creator...except the one thing we don't even know actually exists. What makes that god different? Why is there no creator for it but there is for everything else?

Is it just because it doesn't fit in with the belief system that "created" the god but doesn't want to admit it?

Likewise, just because it falls under your belief system does not make it true, either. Yet you present it as factual...factual without ever producing any supporting evidence that the statement is true.

Because you don't have any? Because you wish it true so strongly that reality doesn't matter? Why?

I have the exact same perceptive ability as you do, so no reason to put yourself on a pedestal that you can see things I can't. Unless you think that denying the rationality you also possess will gain you knowledge?

Obviously your perceptive ability is not the same as theirs or you would perceive that your belief system is a farce, a result of emotions and opinions not based in fact at all as even science is unraveling the facts to support her belief. Talk about belief systems, it takes way more "faith" to believe atheism than it does to believe in a supernatural creator and that is just the plain truth.

Absolutely. It takes much faith to "believe" that we don't know everything, much more than to believe in another universe with a single omnipotent ET that loves us so much it created this universe just to have us worship it without ever showing itself to the ants of earth.

I have been around the horn many times with the atheists, (almost universally adherents to Scientism whether they own it or not). It is amazing to me how they don't see the breakdown in their logic and that a creator is the most reasonable conclusion based on the available data.

I believe it would be quite clear to an impartial observer, if such a thing exists, that Scientism employs a lot of blind faith, considering assumptions and ideas as facts and extrapolating them to create more assumptions and "facts". Often utilizing genuine scientific observations as smoke and mirrors, they don't see, (or at least won't admit), how what they contend and purport is based on faith not fact.

Here is a recent go round with Wilderness, which is fairly concise, (currently that whole thread is just 3 pages, where I left Wilderness with the "last word") : http://hubpages.com/forum/post/2690576

What I find ironic is that there is pretty much just one area of common ground. We both agree the other is blindly following their "religion" and believing as gospel truth the words of their respective "holy men" regarding things that have not and cannot be proven materialistically / scientifically.

I of course contend the believer has more resources, via spiritual discernment, and that the key to understanding it all is only available that way.

Atheists often will create the strawman of all believers only believe using faith. Then they will make their own position clear of empiricism/ materialism. (A posteriori knowledge or justification is dependent on experience or empirical evidence) and they believe that this is the only way to observe potential truths. What is missing from their assumption/ strawman and what is missing from their own position are the same thing: deductive reasoning/ a priori knowledge.

Most atheists use what they believe is evidence of evolution as "their reason to disregard the idea of “God” as irrational drivel made up by people who were just too ignorant to know any better (barbarians?). However, the thing is… it doesn’t really prove anything."

Dean Richards explains How Science Proves That We Actually Don’t Exist That's right, according to natural laws and recent scientific discoveries and scientific theory about the beginning of the universe you can't exist.

"When humanity started questioning the reasons for its own existence, it makes sense that they wanted to know the specifics, including the very first occurrence of anything that wasn’t “nothing.” Currently, scientists are still unsure about this, as all they know is that there was a big bang once upon a time, and that after that the planets were created. But the question an evolutionist does not like to hear while debating the existence of God is the question “How did that big bang happen in the first place?”

Of course, the easy answer is “We don’t know yet, but that doesn’t matter.”

The thing is, though… it kind of does matter. It is a fundamental flaw in evolutionism, especially for one very simple reason: science has proven that it is impossible for “nothing” to become “something”. One cell can become two cells, a bacteria can become a human being, but according to science, it is impossible for “nothing” to become an atom or a molecule.

And there it is: how did anything ever come into existence if it cannot be created out of nothing? Science has just disproven itself, and the idea that mankind has come into existence without the help of a God has just become complete rubbish. “1-0 to the creationists!” you might think.

There is just one more problem… How did God ever come into existence? Science has shown us that everything has a beginning and that it is impossible for something to be created out of nothing, but seeing as God is also a “something” (or perhaps more of a someone, but that’s a different subject), it basically means that God cannot exist either. Unfortunately, that brings us back to where we started: how then did mankind ever come into existence?

There is only one remaining answer: we didn’t. Yep, sorry. You don’t exist. It’s just scientifically impossible. I can imagine that this is difficult to deal with, but well… reality can hurt sometimes. Or actually… there is no reality… because well… we don’t exist, and neither does anything else…"

....or....

Or you do exist because you were created from nothing by the God who isn't ruled by the natural, who exists outside of the natural world and is not subject to natural laws, he is supernatural and because he is supernatural and he is love he sent his son into the natural world who chose to be subject to the natural world so that his creation (mankind) could be saved, can exist with him for eternity.

Make sense? Well I guess not because according to science YOU don't exist. Oh yeah, science makes perfect sense.

All well put. Not hard to understand from a spiritual perspective, but if you are locked into there being nothing but the material, you've got no chance to get it. Funny how none of the things we value most are material. Love, justice, peace, etc. Concepts, thoughts, sentience, all not physical, yet they contend only the physical exists. What I find confusing is how anyone can think that when the truth is self evident. Oh well, at least this should give them a "pound" of ponder!

Which ones? The untrue statement that "That's right, according to natural laws and recent scientific discoveries and scientific theory about the beginning of the universe you can't exist."?

The lie that "science has proven that it is impossible for “nothing” to become “something”" (we know of many particles that come from nothing)?

The lie that "Science has just disproven itself" (which knowledge is forever growing, science has never disproven the field of science)?

The lie that "the idea that mankind has come into existence without the help of a God has just become complete rubbish" (after the big bang, gravity and evolution take over and we know there was no need for the big bang)?

The logical fallacy (apparently based on the falsehoods above) that "There is only one remaining answer: we didn’t (come into existence)?

Or was it the point being made that if we don't know an answer we should fabricate one and pretend it's correct without ever trying to corroborate it?

Which one of these would you consider "good", given that they are all either false or logically incorrect?

More probable is that "God" existed before the "Big Bang," and "God" was the Big Bubble..... so the Big Balloon ceased to exist, splattered it's contents all over the universe, and little pieces of it have ever since been trying to reconstitute the "Big Balloon."

No, but if you think God is something then by the very basic "everything had to come from somewhere" logic that people love to quote in defence of God, God would have to come from somewhere, too. Did he create himself? Did he appear out of thin air?

We know that everything in the natural world has to come from something. We who are in the natural have witnessed this to be so. But God is not a part of the natural world. He is Spirit. He created both natural and spiritual things, as it's written, but from our natural point of view, we are witnesses only to the fact that all natural things come from something.

God is Spirit, not part of the natural world, which has been created by Him. We are dependent on Him for our knowledge of the spiritual realm. Who are we to say that God must come from something, when all we know in our human wisdom is that all NATURAL things must come from something? It makes sense for us to question where everything in the natural has originated, as we have discovered many laws for the natural. But anything beyond this is beyond our realm, beyond our natural laws, beyond our understanding, and so on. There's no reason to say anything outside our natural realm must come from something. Why apply a natural law to that which is not natural, but spiritual? If we do so, we're misapplying natural laws. Our only knowledge of the spiritual comes from God Himself and the spiritual realm.

An infinite amount of events occurring in the past leads to contradictions. (That idea leads to contradictions that would also have to be answered.) That it looks like our universe began to exist with the big bang is consistent with this idea. We have reached this point in time right now. If there were an infinite amount of events in the past, we wouldn't have ever reached this moment in time. This is how we know in part, that we do have to have something that is an uncaused cause. Not out of desire to line up with an ancient text or desire to have belief in a god or something else just for the sake of it.

Whatever it would be, would have to be an uncaused cause. This is not just a problem for people of varying religions. Its the case for every human being that wonders about any existence at all over just non existence. Its a human dilemma we have. What best explains it? Not knowing what it could be and holding out hope that science will discover it is still just that, hope in something unknown, something, anything that couldn't possibly be a god. I know some esteem that as a very superior view, but I think its good for us to talk about how other views actually weigh in very well with what best explains what we all do see and even agree on in science, humanity, etc.

A devil's advocate might suggest the possibility of cyclic universes, with finite beginnings in time. Even though there could be infinite amounts of old and new universes, in the past, it would be conceivable to arrive at this time because of a definite beginning. It may seem counter-intuitive or cheating because there could still be an infinite amount of cycles in the past. The question would remain however of "why any cycles of universes at all" ?

Contingent things like a drawing of a triangle on a piece of paper can be explained. The paper was made somewhere, the pen or pencil was made somewhere, and someone or something drew a triangle on the paper. But who created the "nature of a triangle". It exists in itself (by it's nature) and is not contingent in this analogy. All it needs is three sides to exist, if it has four, it is a conceptual contradiction ie a square, if it has zero sides, it is nothing at all.

Which gets us back to : "why any cycles of universes at all" ? The "reason" cannot be a contingent thing. It must be something that "by it's nature" provided the reason.

You bring up excellent points. I think the answer to why is there any existence at all, is because something with a will, willed it. As you point out possibly, why any cycles of universes at all instead of nothing or none, I think the answer is something with a will. A mind, with a will, and an incomprehensible amount of power. Yes, something that just "is" on its own, and that would line up with what we observe, and the necessity that our reality dictates as we can seem to understand it at this point. I will have to think more on this.

Guys, I know it gets frustrating at times, and many have previously received rude or condescending comments themselves, so our defenses go up, but it's best if we avoid any unkind words. As it's written, let's just share the truth in a loving, humble way. Thanks, and God bless you as you continue to share words of truth!

You my friend are WRONG. I may have started that thread..... list all of the forums I have been on. Enough for me to forget that I was even on them at all. What you are basically doing is calling me a liar and are on the verge of getting reported for your harassment of me constantly. Now you are following me on the forums? Like I said, grasping at straws trying to save face for what you have accused me of. You are dead wrong!

My lord! Of course not. I do believe you are ashamed for calling me out and being VERY wrong. Did you even bother to check and see if I participated in these forums or if my name was mentioned? Yes, every time your name is mentioned it shows up on the forum it was mentioned on. Did you have any idea of that?

The only thing I'm ashamed of is letting you suck me into one of these ridiculous conversations again. Hence why I would do best here if I just didn't see your name at all - apparently letting things slide is not my strong point. You were just saying we should cease interactions... I'm looking for a permanent way to do so.

Essayist, as a student I am surprised and disappointed that you have become so fixed in your knowledge and that anything new or outside of your comprehension gets kicked out of court.

I have been in that evangelical position, a long time ago.... you are free to make your own choices. I am free to make mine.

I can assure you there is NO god "out there" and that bible which you depend upon for your ideas is only a prop for your imagination. It has no more "truth" within it than what you chose to perceive as "truth." The real truth is what you manage to discover about yourself, by going inside of your mind and meditating. This is what that person "Jesus" would have done if he was indeed an enlightened person.

You are, again, free to make your own judgment of my life, but you know so little about my life that any judgment will be totally flawed.

First off, I'm not a sir Jonny. Secondly, I am on hubpages to practice writing my essays. Yes, I call it "target practice". I'm in the forums to do like you, use my voice. I checked out your profile. Impressive! Now that's funny.

JThomp42 - You make my point well. The belief is that all the bible is true, which means that much of it must be "interpreted" to mean something it doesn't say or simply ignore it. At least if your idea of a "loving god" is to be considered correct.

Either the historical reporting was correct or it wasn't. If it was not then the whole of the book is thrown into massive doubt while if it is you are worshipping an evil beyond anything any man has ever exhibited.

Yes, there is massive doubt for those who do not believe. I think this to be out of fear. Fear of the unknown. As Christians we have faith. Yes, in life we must have faith. Faith in a perfect creation and creator. Historically everything that the Bible has predicted has come to fruition except for the rapture. Be watching those clouds in the sky. If you have anyone who believes you will be wondering where they went on this glorious day.

You may be right - a lot of people do think that belief comes from that fear of the unknown. It is so great that answers must be found, and whether they agree with reality is immaterial. It is an answer, regardless of truth, that is desired and religious belief most certainly provides that.

But the atheist does not appear to have that fear; while an answer is desirable to such questions as the origin of the universe, the desire is insufficient to accept an answer without discernible truth in it. Truth carries a higher priority than the fear to an atheist, while to the believer an answer, any answer is preferable to the unknown. Faith, in the sense of unsupported religious belief, is not a "must" for the atheist.

A great many people have made predictions (Nostrodamus comes to mind) which, if interpreted loosely enough, comes true. Others have made predictions based on political/social/cultural facts which are almost inevitable and also come true. Neither of which shows any supernatural force at work.

wilderness, you said "Truth carries a higher priority than the fear (of the unknown) to an atheist, while to the believer an answer, any answer is preferable to the unknown." I'm interested in knowing what truth you refer to? What other truth is there besides Jesus, The Truth? What truth is there outside of Him? John 14:6 KJV - Jesus saith unto him (Thomas), I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.

Thank you for putting that point, Kathryn, but I expect that, as usual, it will fall upon deaf ears. The traditional understanding is so deeply ingrained that rarely will it be dislodged to make way for any other possibility. I don't blame people for believing otherwise. C'est la vie.

JThomp, I agree that there is much doubt amongst those who are unbelievers and I also believe like you it's due mainly to fear, although in general, they point to the believer as the one fear-ridden and that it is that fear (of the unknown, of living, of dying, so on and so forth) that drives the believer to search for God. Who doesn't have fears in their life? Whatever it is that causes a person to seek after God, so be it. I would rather be in a situation where fear had caused me to want to know God than to live a life supposedly so free from fear until I fooled myself into believing either God doesn't exist or if He does I don't need Him.

And yes, what a glorious day it will be when we hear Him say "Come up hither."

Be honest with yourself. That god in your mind is unique to your specific needs. That god has no actual form, only imagined form. So you can build your god, out of view of anyone and everyone else. No one can scale the walls of your mind and disprove what you believe. So you are safe from invasion.

"Be honest with yourself. That god in your mind is unique to your specific needs. That god has no actual form, only imagined form. So you can build your god, out of view of anyone and everyone else. No one can scale the walls of your mind and disprove what you believe. So you are safe from invasion."

It bothers me to see you speak of yourself in this manner Jonny, really it does.

I am open to new knowledge. Trying to convince me that God is a figment of my imagination is not knowledge. It isn't even new, for I have heard it before. If I am seen as closed-minded because I believe, then I readily accept that title.

And what is it you are hoping to achieve here in HubPages? Is it your objective to convince everyone, including myself, that we are "sinners" in the "eyes" of a god that does not exist except in your mind?You can keep trying to do that, sister, but you will be wasting your time 100%

Your "faith" and your proclamations make you feel good, that is all. You have no more authenticity than that. As mentioned before, your God is your own concoction. Your reading of, and your interpretation of that bible is all yours, designed to prop up your own ideas and beliefs. You have a right to those, of course. However, your ideas that everyone else has to have the same beliefs as you have is totally erroneous. So, have fun. You have totally left me out of your game.

I have much more important and rewarding things to do with my time and my mind. Around me I see wonders and beauty unimaginable. In biology, physics, chemistry. In the birds, insects, animals, fungi, the rocks that are millions of years old. Life and all its manifestations go on around me all the time, just beckoning me to take notice and join with them. Within 10 years or so, I will say good bye to these things. Forever. Why do you imagine any of us is justified in wasting time worrying about theoretical ideas of "life after death?"

You choose to concentrate on that after-life and worry about passing the entrance exam to reach it. You could, instead, spend that concentration upon the world at your finger tips.I choose to concentrate on this world as I sense it, through all my faculties, every moment of every minute of every hour. Just before the moment of my death I will be aware of one understanding.... I wasted as little as possible of my time.

I believe we actually spend more time on the other side than on this side. Now, if the essayist chooses to focus on that world and what happens to her after the moment her heart stops beating, its fine for her… So we can give her that leeway… as she needs to give you the leeway to value being in the here and now. Ideally we can value both life on earth and life after earth.

Note to the essayist: Ideally we need to respect others' belief systems and allow others to choose their own. God is a personal matter. Adults search and make up their own minds. We can answer questions, but not preach where not invited or accepted.

"You are too biased, JT. This thread was certainly started by essayist, but she essentially pitted theist against a-theist. She therefore was inviting a backlash from those she was against."

I pitted no one against anyone. Everyone joined in of their own choosing. I am against no one. Who said I was against anyone? And trust me, the backlash doesn't frigthen me. I have a history on hubpages and the threads. I know how it goes.

"I joined the fight. No regrets, no apologies. I will never stand back and allow the self-appointed christian zealot to presume the whole world needs his/her version of a message."

"And what is it you are hoping to achieve here in HubPages? Is it your objective to convince everyone, including myself, that we are "sinners" in the "eyes" of a god that does not exist except in your mind?You can keep trying to do that, sister, but you will be wasting your time 100%"

What my objective is at hubpages is to practice writing of essays. We've gone over that already. Remember? And to participate in the forums and wherever else I would like. What is your objective on hubpages? Hold up, never mind, it doesn't really matter to me.

"Your "faith" and your proclamations make you feel good, that is all. You have no more authenticity than that. As mentioned before, your God is your own concoction. Your reading of, and your interpretation of that bible is all yours, designed to prop up your own ideas and beliefs. You have a right to those, of course. However, your ideas that everyone else has to have the same beliefs as you have is totally erroneous. So, have fun. You have totally left me out of your game."

You are continually trying to convince me that God is a figment of my imagination while accusing me of trying to have everyone believe as I do. Hypocrisy! Isn't that what you are trying to do with me?

"I have much more important and rewarding things to do with my time and my mind."

Yet you keep showing up to engage this thread...

"You choose to concentrate on that after-life and worry about passing the entrance exam to reach it."

I'm not focused on the after-life. My God is alive. I'm focused on the present moments with him . The after-life is not here yet. It comes AFTER

"I choose to concentrate on this world as I sense it, through all my faculties, every moment of every minute of every hour."

I don't think so. You choose to focus on this thread and my made-up God. If it's unimportant to you, why do you keep showing up? Go on your way, like you said you would a few posts ago. Remember?

Whatever you choose to make it. The baseline is what is good for society as a whole. Outside of artificial rules designed to simply control others for no other reason than control, there has never been any other baseline.

The baseline should be survival of the fittest, kill or be killed. Only living people can feign morality. But in general humans have an inherent morality. They seem to know for the most part what is good or bad, cultural differences aside. Deep inside a human's mind is a conscience, unless they are incapable of one for whatever reason. I think it more plausible that a conscience is the desired fruit or product of an intelligent first cause, than some evolutionary by product.

People are, for the most part, inherently moral. At least as far as the basics (not killing people, not stealing from people, etc.) go. Basically the morals covered in the Ten Commandments are common sense for most of us.

If we lived in a world where basic morals hinged on external factors (obeying a god/gods), we'd be living in a terribly immoral world. External motivation only takes you so far for so long.

And I'd say all of that was influenced by external factors. I'm not saying morality is infallible or that it's always consistent across cultures (in fact I'd say only the 'basics' - murder, stealing, etc. are consistent). What I'm saying is that if people depended on God/religion, or even just law, to know the difference between right and wrong, we probably would've died out already... or at least been living in a much less civilized way. In my opinion it runs way deeper than that.

And I agree with you, as long as we recognize that morals are neither universal nor static. They come from the culture where they are found, not the world, and they change through time. Even "basic" ones change - the US is one of the few countries still killing people for committing crimes and it is disappearing here as well.

John 3:16-18 says: 16"For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him shall not perish, but have eternal life. 17"For God did not send the Son into the world to judge the world, but that the world might be saved through Him. 18"He who believes in Him is not judged; he who does not believe has been judged already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God."

We have to acknowledge that Jesus is the Son of God, sent to live a sinless life in order to be worthy to die a sacrificial death to atone for our sins (all are sinners by birthright because of Adam's and Eve's mishap). He made right with God what Adam and Eve fouled up, thereby making it possible for man to again be able to be in right standing with God (which is where Adam and Eve were before they sinned, in right standing with God). We CAN have right standing with God, but only through Christ. "For he (God The Father) hath made him (God The Son) to be sin FOR US, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him." 2 Corinthians 5:21

Jesus lived a sinless life on earth, as a man. He did what Adam didn't. What Adam lost through disobedience, Jesus restored through obedience. The only sins He carried to the Cross were yours and mine and every other person's who would ever live.

After we acknowledge He is who He and The Father have said He is we are ready to receive Him as our personal Savior. He has already completed everyone's salvation, but unless we receive it through acknowledging we are a sinner in need of Him as Savior, His free gift to us remains as an unopened present. He gave it, but it was never opened and enjoyed. That's how I see every person who has ever died outside of Christ. He gave them the gift, but it just sat there, unopened.

Salvation comes when we earnestly (from the heart) confess to God The Father that "I am a sinner" "I believe Jesus came to die for my sins" "I receive His death in my place and ask you to forgive me of my sins" "I turn from those sins (this is repentance) and accept Christ as my Savior and Lord today" If those words are sincere, one is born again. Christ becomes Savior as easy as that. It's so easy until it causes many to disbelieve it is possible, but this is God's doing. It's the way He set it up.

9" That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved. 10 For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation." Romans 10:9-10

Jesus becomes our Savior the moment we pray that prayer. We are born-again and through prayer, Scripture and time spent in fellowship with other believers, we learn how to let Him also become Lord of our lives. That's why some refer to Him as Savior and Lord. This is His rightful place in the lives of all who say they belong to Him. Yes, Savior, but also Lord over all we are.

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