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Well, I would say...the difference is, basically, that MU Ezri is given in to a bitter kind of attitude towards the universe. From the moment we see her, she seems to have a bit of a chip on her shoulder ("Would you STOP staring at me?!"). And yet...we see her, particularly in the cell while Smiley and MU Bashir confront her, basically seeking to give the impression that she doesn't really give a crap.

She possesses a cynicism towards the universe that Prime Ezri doesn't have--at all. And from that, we get MU Ezri's general air of contempt--and from that, alterating bitterness and nonchalant acceptance.

Prime Ezri is far more idealistic, in an "innocent" sort of manner. She hopes for the best--and looks for the best. In a way, she has a "childlike", one might say "romantic" view of the universe. As a result, we see her break into tears in episodes like "Afterimage" or "Prodigal Daughter", when she encounters the cuelties the universe faces.

MU Ezri accepts cruelties as just the normal order of things--and again, has convinced herself that she doesn't really care. The events of the ep, though, have her discover a conscience, which causes her to decide to fight to change things. Still...her hard-edge attitude seems grounded into her personality--she's a lot more of a "tomboy" than Prime Ezri could ever be.

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"The saying implies but does not name the effective agency of its supposed utopia.... 'Needs and abilities' are, of course, subjective. So the operative statement may be reduced to 'the State shall take, the State shall give'."

Well, it's possible everyone was waiting to see how I was going to tackle the issue. I'm...kinda notorious in this forum.

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"The saying implies but does not name the effective agency of its supposed utopia.... 'Needs and abilities' are, of course, subjective. So the operative statement may be reduced to 'the State shall take, the State shall give'."

Prime Ezri is far more idealistic, in an "innocent" sort of manner. She hopes for the best--and looks for the best. In a way, she has a "childlike", one might say "romantic" view of the universe. As a result, we see her break into tears in episodes like "Afterimage" or "Prodigal Daughter", when she encounters the cuelties the universe faces.

Wait, are we talking about the Ezri The-Klingon-Empire-Deserves-to-Die Dax here? I would say many things about Ezri, but 'romantic' is probably not one of them - I would say that label applies more to Jadzia and Curzon, who unabashedly admired the Klingon warrior ethic. (Exception: Jadzia's distaste for Victor Hugo.) Ezri's view is quite a bit more cynical (and realistic), that any polity or culture which so highly prizes honour but which cannot elevate respectable people to positions of power and political relevance has a rather short lifespan ahead of it.

Ezri does strike me as being a bit 'childlike' in the sense of being unprepared for the humongous duties and responsibilities thrust on her by mere chance and bad luck, but then I think anyone might be. She manages to hit her stride a bit more near the end, though.

Prime Ezri is far more idealistic, in an "innocent" sort of manner. She hopes for the best--and looks for the best. In a way, she has a "childlike", one might say "romantic" view of the universe. As a result, we see her break into tears in episodes like "Afterimage" or "Prodigal Daughter", when she encounters the cuelties the universe faces.

Wait, are we talking about the Ezri The-Klingon-Empire-Deserves-to-Die Dax here? I would say many things about Ezri, but 'romantic' is probably not one of them - I would say that label applies more to Jadzia and Curzon, who unabashedly admired the Klingon warrior ethic. (Exception: Jadzia's distaste for Victor Hugo.) Ezri's view is quite a bit more cynical (and realistic), that any polity or culture which so highly prizes honour but which cannot elevate respectable people to positions of power and political relevance has a rather short lifespan ahead of it.

"Romantic" does not mean unrealistic. She is idealistic, in the sense that she believes things can be better--she has a vision of what the universe should be--and when it is not, she questions why those who in her mind can change things do not.

A cynic would shrug off the cruelties of the universe, accept them as the way things are...and not critique them constructively, pointing out how things can be changed, as an idealist would.

Jadzia accepts Klingon Culture as it is, failing to truly see the need for it to improve--Ezri sees how it's not as good and noble and decent as it could be, and should be.

Jadzia trashes Victor Hugo as "two-dimensional", or something. I suspect she views the Romantic writers as "impractical".

Ezri does strike me as being a bit 'childlike' in the sense of being unprepared for the humongous duties and responsibilities thrust on her by mere chance and bad luck, but then I think anyone might be. She manages to hit her stride a bit more near the end, though.

And that is one of the many things I admire about her. But even by the end, she posseses a "childlike" air about her--note how she interacts with Julian in "When It Rains..." or "Extreme Measures" or "The Dogs Of War". That "cuteness" if you will is part of her charm.

On the subject of MU Ezri, though, you and I are in full agreement!

Good to know, mate!

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"The saying implies but does not name the effective agency of its supposed utopia.... 'Needs and abilities' are, of course, subjective. So the operative statement may be reduced to 'the State shall take, the State shall give'."

"Romantic" does not mean unrealistic. She is idealistic, in the sense that she believes things can be better--she has a vision of what the universe should be--and when it is not, she questions why those who in her mind can change things do not.

A cynic would shrug off the cruelties of the universe, accept them as the way things are...and not critique them constructively, pointing out how things can be changed, as an idealist would.

See, that's almost what I think she's doing in 'Tacking Into the Wind'. She wasn't critiquing the Klingon Empire constructively and pointing out how things could change - she was saying how it was going to die, and how she couldn't see much hope for the Empire as things were.

The one flaw in this interpretation, though, is that it is Worf she's talking to. And she understands Worf exactly the way his wife did. It could very well be that she was giving him a figurative kick in the rear in order to get him to challenge Gowron for leadership, knowing him to be an 'honourable and decent man'.

Rush Limborg wrote:

Jadzia trashes Victor Hugo as "two-dimensional", or something. I suspect she views the Romantic writers as "impractical".

Yeah, she said that about Hugo's heroines. Got to agree with her there...

But Jadzia's entire relationship with Worf seems to me to have made her the more 'Romantic' (in the philosophical sense, not in the contemporary sense) of the Daxes. She wasn't one for coolly analysing a situation from a controlled and far-sighted viewpoint (as Worf was), but was more one for 'living in the moment', for taking things day by day, for jumping into a situation, for being adventurous and impulsive. Actually, in 'For the Uniform' as well, she approves of Sisko's going off half-cocked after Eddington, and tells him to be more understanding when she does something similar.

But then, Ezri does the same thing too, to rescue Worf in 'Penumbra'... you may have a point there.

Rush Limborg wrote:

And that is one of the many things I admire about her. But even by the end, she posseses a "childlike" air about her--note how she interacts with Julian in "When It Rains..." or "Extreme Measures" or "The Dogs Of War". That "cuteness" if you will is part of her charm.

Agreed.

Nicole de Boer is indeed a highly talented actress. She pulls off this 'cute' and 'childlike' aura incredibly well, whilst still managing to convey that she is... well, Dax. Love the character or hate her, you've got to give her interpreter the due she is owed.

"Romantic" does not mean unrealistic. She is idealistic, in the sense that she believes things can be better--she has a vision of what the universe should be--and when it is not, she questions why those who in her mind can change things do not.

A cynic would shrug off the cruelties of the universe, accept them as the way things are...and not critique them constructively, pointing out how things can be changed, as an idealist would.

See, that's almost what I think she's doing in 'Tacking Into the Wind'. She wasn't critiquing the Klingon Empire constructively and pointing out how things could change - she was saying how it was going to die, and how she couldn't see much hope for the Empire as things were.

The one flaw in this interpretation, though, is that it is Worf she's talking to. And she understands Worf exactly the way his wife did. It could very well be that she was giving him a figurative kick in the rear in order to get him to challenge Gowron for leadership, knowing him to be an 'honourable and decent man'.

That's how I saw it. Her point is, "You have been willing to accept a government that you know is corrupt." (emphasis mine)

Rush Limborg wrote:

Jadzia trashes Victor Hugo as "two-dimensional", or something. I suspect she views the Romantic writers as "impractical".

Yeah, she said that about Hugo's heroines. Got to agree with her there...

But Jadzia's entire relationship with Worf seems to me to have made her the more 'Romantic' (in the philosophical sense, not in the contemporary sense) of the Daxes. She wasn't one for coolly analysing a situation from a controlled and far-sighted viewpoint (as Worf was), but was more one for 'living in the moment', for taking things day by day, for jumping into a situation, for being adventurous and impulsive. Actually, in 'For the Uniform' as well, she approves of Sisko's going off half-cocked after Eddington, and tells him to be more understanding when she does something similar.

Again, "living in the moment" is a kind of acceptance of things as they are, not as they could be. Ezri is far more idealistic--I suspect, were the two ever in the same ep, she would say to Jadzia, "How can you laugh at something like that?" She seems to hold more things as sacred--and is thus more affected by tragedy, as the ending of "Prodigal Daughter" indicates.

Jadzia shrugs off more than Ezri could, accepting things, again, as they are.

But then, Ezri does the same thing too, to rescue Worf in 'Penumbra'... you may have a point there.

Rush Limborg wrote:

And that is one of the many things I admire about her. But even by the end, she posseses a "childlike" air about her--note how she interacts with Julian in "When It Rains..." or "Extreme Measures" or "The Dogs Of War". That "cuteness" if you will is part of her charm.

Agreed.

Nicole de Boer is indeed a highly talented actress. She pulls off this 'cute' and 'childlike' aura incredibly well, whilst still managing to convey that she is... well, Dax. Love the character or hate her, you've got to give her interpreter the due she is owed.

Yep--she certainly is. And even today, she still uses that kind of template, to great effect. In the film Christmas Town, she plays a young mother who was raised to be cynical from childhood by her father. She is an innocent, but in a different sense--the wonderful scene in the cabin, beautifully acted by Miss de Boer (and the acter playing the father, of course), implies that a part of her never really grew up--and following this, her confict in the film is whether to accept the "little girl" within.

The film's an admittedly not-so-guilty pleasure.

But interestingly enough--her stint as MU Ezri shows that she can play hard-core and hard-edged. It's funny--she actually did a variation on this in the otherwise-insane Phil The Alien. The film itself often comes this close to making the blood shoot out of my eyes with its rampant absurdism...but her role as Madame Madame is well played--someone who's been trained not to feel, who comes to admit she wants to feel. Miss de Boer's performance alone makes the film watchable, for me.

__________________
"The saying implies but does not name the effective agency of its supposed utopia.... 'Needs and abilities' are, of course, subjective. So the operative statement may be reduced to 'the State shall take, the State shall give'."