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Quoted

What is the breakdown?

You know... that's a good question...

I was thinking about something along the lines of the Ukuru so for the mortar, the Depth Charge Projectors, Throwers and Chutes as well as the Depth Charges themselves, I would guess 66 tons. Electronics 95 tons. The rest for some minor things, including extra ammunition for the 25mm guns.

With Brock mentioning "gyroplanes", I'm kind of tempted to dump an Autogyro onto it as well, but...
...where to dump it? Granted my design is a bit longer than the Ukuru, but only 1.75m. Not enought to create space somewhere where an Autogyro could land so that idea seems to be out of the question.

... Something like the Fa 223A would be neat, but that thing has a span that is about 1/3 of the length of the vessel...

*goes off to design a bigger escort vessel*

... but before that, using MS Paint to count the pixels, I slightly tuned the Shimushu design a bit so the freeboard matches the freeboard as seen in the Ukuru picture (more or less). I also split up the main armament so the report gives an armoured single gun mount forward and an unarmoured twin gun mount aft rather than the "2 mounts" remark. Of course that meant that the light displacement changed by 3 tons which needed to be corrected (IIRC, SS2 assumes that there are 30 more 2nd gun shells than main gun shells; I would have to check that to be sure as well as the differences with 3rd, 4th and 5th guns). Removed excess HS by adding a bit of miscellaneous weight.

So you took a historical ship, built it 3 yrs ahead of OTL, made it longer, wider, deeper, and faster while putting bigger guns on it (5" vs 12cm) yet it weighs less (938std vs 940std) than the OTL version. Hmm...somehow seems off to me. It's a nice ship, I just think w/ all things considered your version would come out heavier than OTL.

I simmed the Shimushu to begin with, which is a 1939 design. I wanted a slightly bigger version of that one, so I increased the three dimensions of the Shimushu and not of the Ukuru (which is 1943). I ended up below the Ukuru's displacement most likely because of that. On the other hand, because it is based on the Shimushu, it has Shimushu's 6000nm range, and not the 5000nm of the Ukuru. The thing is that I never bothered to look at the dimension and displacement stats of the other Kaibokan classes. I only looked at their weapons and ASW stuff.
At one point I was contemplating whether I should stick to the 3x1 layout or the slightly more unusual 1x2 and 1x1 of the Mikura (which is 1942). Because of the looks, I went for the latter. The photo of the Shisaka (which is 1944) was in my opinion the better looking photo of a vessel with such a gun layout on wiki so I used that one. I do not have the 120mm option so it is either 105mm or 5" and 5" was the closest option.

Quoted

Originally posted by Rooijen10
I know 2x2=5, but 1939-1941=3? That's a new one!

Well, you say it's based on the 1939 Shimushu in one post...but all the graphics you're using are of the later Ukuru. Specifically, the Ukuru with a '44-'45 fit. Such things tend to confuse and baffle us occidentals.

Quoted

Originally posted by Rooijen10
At one point I was contemplating whether I should stick to the 3x1 layout or the slightly more unusual 1x2 and 1x1 of the Mikura (which is 1942). Because of the looks, I went for the latter. The photo of the Shisaka (which is 1944) was in my opinion the better looking photo of a vessel with such a gun layout on wiki so I used that one. I do not have the 120mm option so it is either 105mm or 5" and 5" was the closest option.

I will point out that developing, designing, producing, and deploying two seperate automatic mounts (single and twin) for a low-cost escort....is rather counter-intuitive.

On that vein, I question the requirement of the automatic weapons in general; it's come up numerous times on the board that an ASW vessel has no real requirement for rapid, heavy fire.

I was going off the Ukuru, since that is the picture you posted. Ukuru was 940t Std, and smaller (L/B/W) than your SS. It's also the one that was newer (laid down late '43). Shimushu has a different layout than your ship, which has the same layout as Ukuru.

Quoted

you say it's based on the 1939 Shimushu in one post

The thing is that you should read the "it's" as "it was" and not as "it is". When you mess long enough with a design of HMS Hood, you may end up with something that more closely resembles KMS Bismarck. I think that that is one of the problems of this design. It is no longer the ship I started out with in SS2, and, adding the fact that I am looking a bit at the other classes of those escort ships and post pictures of the other classes, that is what is causing the confusion.

Quoted

it's come up numerous times on the board that an ASW vessel has no real requirement for rapid, heavy fire.

True, but I was thinking about the idea trying to force an enemy submarine to the surface as fast as possible (which was why I was looking at the Ukuru's ASW layout with its 16 DCTs) and have it submerge (permanently) even faster (which is why I was looking at the rapid, heavy fire option). the 105mm guns could possibly give me a 2x2 layout, a slightly higher ROF and thus more shells flying through the sky at a surfaced submarine.
Still, thinking of it now it might be a cheaper and better option to either use the 25mm guns to riddle the submarine full of holes, or add something like the 40mm or 50mm guns.

With the game Silent Service, I usually surfaced in order to engage the Kaibokans with the deck gun rather than wasting torpedoes on them...
... which didn't always go as planned. ^_^;;
Ah those were the days. Back then, those Kaibokans ruined my day when I tried to attack ships. Nowadays the idiotic opponents in Gran Turismo 5 who can't drive are the ones who ruin my day.

Quoted

I was going off the Ukuru, since that is the picture you posted.

I posted that because of the deckspace that the guns and ASW would take up if I were to go for such a ASW layout and the fact that if I were to add an autogyro, there would be no space to put it. Also, since I had that picture around, I used that one to base the freeboard on rather than the picture of the Shimushu.

What I mentioned about Hood and Bismarck is also true for the Shimushu and Ukuru but you end up a lot faster at the Ukuru than that you would end up at the Bismarck, especially if you decide to go for the main gun layout of the Mikura, which has the same layout as the Ukuru. Guess that's the difference between a 4 year gap and a 20 year gap.

Just in case you want to compare them, here are quick sims I made of the Shimushu, the Etorofu, the Mikura and the Ukuru, based on the wiki and warshipsww2.eu data. For simplicity, I did not bother to check the exact freeboards of all four classes and just use the one I already calculated. Whenever hull strength was left, I added miscellaneous weights until it was at 1.00.

Quoted

Originally posted by Rooijen10
With the game Silent Service, I usually surfaced in order to engage the Kaibokans with the deck gun rather than wasting torpedoes on them...
... which didn't always go as planned. ^_^;;
Ah those were the days. Back then, those Kaibokans ruined my day when I tried to attack ships. Nowadays the idiotic opponents in Gran Turismo 5 who can't drive are the ones who ruin my day.

Quoted

Originally posted by Rooijen10

Quoted

you say it's based on the 1939 Shimushu in one post

The thing is that you should read the "it's" as "it was" and not as "it is". When you mess long enough with a design of HMS Hood, you may end up with something that more closely resembles KMS Bismarck. I think that that is one of the problems of this design. It is no longer the ship I started out with in SS2, and, adding the fact that I am looking a bit at the other classes of those escort ships and post pictures of the other classes, that is what is causing the confusion.

Quoted

it's come up numerous times on the board that an ASW vessel has no real requirement for rapid, heavy fire.

True, but I was thinking about the idea trying to force an enemy submarine to the surface as fast as possible (which was why I was looking at the Ukuru's ASW layout with its 16 DCTs) and have it submerge (permanently) even faster (which is why I was looking at the rapid, heavy fire option). the 105mm guns could possibly give me a 2x2 layout, a slightly higher ROF and thus more shells flying through the sky at a surfaced submarine.
Still, thinking of it now it might be a cheaper and better option to either use the 25mm guns to riddle the submarine full of holes, or add something like the 40mm or 50mm guns.

With the game Silent Service, I usually surfaced in order to engage the Kaibokans with the deck gun rather than wasting torpedoes on them...
... which didn't always go as planned. ^_^;;
Ah those were the days. Back then, those Kaibokans ruined my day when I tried to attack ships. Nowadays the idiotic opponents in Gran Turismo 5 who can't drive are the ones who ruin my day.

Quoted

I was going off the Ukuru, since that is the picture you posted.

I posted that because of the deckspace that the guns and ASW would take up if I were to go for such a ASW layout and the fact that if I were to add an autogyro, there would be no space to put it. Also, since I had that picture around, I used that one to base the freeboard on rather than the picture of the Shimushu.

What I mentioned about Hood and Bismarck is also true for the Shimushu and Ukuru but you end up a lot faster at the Ukuru than that you would end up at the Bismarck, especially if you decide to go for the main gun layout of the Mikura, which has the same layout as the Ukuru. Guess that's the difference between a 4 year gap and a 20 year gap.

What I find interesting is the apparent recognition by the IJN that specialized escort ships are vital to the survival of Japan; a lesson that in the OTL the IJN never recognized until it was too late. This is no doubt a wise course, and - as Wesworld is an alternate history - the IJN is not obligated to follow OTL doctrine.

Basing a design on a doctrine that *seems* to to work in a computer game does strike me as asking a lot however. I would agree with ShinRa that developing large-caliber automatic weapons for such vessels would not be cost effective, and that lighter, existing weaponry would be sufficiently effective in riddling a surfaced submarine.

Quoted

Originally posted by BruceDuncan
What I find interesting is the apparent recognition by the IJN that specialized escort ships are vital to the survival of Japan; a lesson that in the OTL the IJN never recognized until it was too late.

Indeed.

I also tend to think, though, that acquiring a rapid-fire gun for killing submarines is rather silly. If the submarine is surfaced, it's dead. Any shots that hit it will prevent it from submerging (more than once); so any gun will work so long as it actually hits.

Good bad or indifferent, my O-8 class has 20mm 'conning tower' armor intended to indicate the sail has armor. The point of the armor is more intended as anti-strafing than anti-ship, but would probably make light automatic HE fused weapons at range useless for 'riddling' them.

Quoted

Originally posted by Kaiser Kirk
Good bad or indifferent, my O-8 class has 20mm 'conning tower' armor intended to indicate the sail has armor. The point of the armor is more intended as anti-strafing than anti-ship, but would probably make light automatic HE fused weapons at range useless for 'riddling' them.

For riddling the Conning Tower, maybe. The rest of the boat is, presumably, as unarmoured as your usual sub. Either from hitting the hull itself, or fragments from hitting the conning tower, I'd still expect some notable effects from such a hit.

I think you're quire correct. However it shouldn't take much distance for the sub to be "hull down" and the hull is the first thing to submerge once diving commences. Small HE rounds really shouldn't produce much in the way of shrapnel that would compromise a pressure hull though. I had considered an 'upper belt', but the sail is far and away the easiest thing to be hit, and a visual focal point for aim so that's all I bothered with. Another ode to the Dutch proclivity to armor things.

On the other hand, if I recall correctly that class also has casement torpedoes, which gives the potential of a nice *boom*

This post has been edited 1 times, last edit by "Kaiser Kirk" (Oct 24th 2011, 6:14am)

Re-simmed the Hiyo in SS2. Like I said, I thought I had done that, but apparently that was not the case. Took me 5 minutes to re-sim it. Took me 5 hours to determine a miscellaneous weights breakdown for those 20,000 tons. Coming up with things like a shinto shrine, a coin operated laundromat and flight deck BBQ equipment is a good indication of me getting desparate to come up with ideas.

While I was busy, I was thinking of making certain aspects of the miscellaneous weights fixed (as you can see below). Not sure if it is accurate or if it would work properly on smaller ships and perhaps some things would need a fixed minimum (like the 25 tons of the planes).