Canada’s Defence Minister, Peter Mackay, said he had known since 2010 of the $25-billion price tag for the F-35 fighter jets. Mackay, however, claimed the $10-billion difference between what the federal government estimated since before last year’s election and the figures now being discussed is a matter of accounting. Mackay made the comments on CTV’s Question Period on Sunday, after the Government spent most of last week taking fire from the opposition over the issue of the cost to develop and replace Canada’s aging F-18 fighter jets.

Are you kidding me? 10 billion dollars for fuel, upkeep and pilot salaries? If more than a third of the cost is going to that, then they aren’t worth it. They are obviously stretching the truth. Do you serious believe that number?

But that is simply the cost of running an air force. As a fraction of the total expenditures of government in Canada it is tiny. If your argument is that it is too much, then it is irrelevant whether we buy the F-35 or any other combat jet. The operational costs will be similar.

That’s not even remotely true, so I’m guessing you’re intentionally limiting the scope of your comment to include only those venues in which official responses were sought through parliament?

Because I’ve been watching the debate on this for years now, and I’ve listened to Conservative MPs of every stripe lie about the cost when asked directly by the media while being interviewed.

Bad enough that they claimed that we had a guarantee in writing stipulating the $75 million price tag when we in fact we didn’t and the price might be twice that, but to downplay the additional training and maintenance costs as they’ve done over the years is just as bad in my view.

No matter where the government representatives happen to be, they have a moral responsibility to be honest with the public in every case, and hiding behind phony technicalities is unethical at best.

MacKay is lying. The Harper Cons said the jets cost $75M each: $9B on the jets + 6B for maintenance. The U.S. Government Accountability Office said the actual cost of each jet is between $137M and $162M. Budget Officer Kevin Page said the total for jets and maintenance was more like $29B.

The Cons also keep lying about contracts. First they said they have a contract that “locks in” the price at $75M (which is pure nonsense.) The next they said lying to Canadians about the actual price is Ok because they have signed no contract (more nonsense.) Now MacKay says cancelling the contract will cost Canadians!
Every word that comes out of their yaps is a filthy lie! They obviously think Canadians are too stupid to notice. Let’s see how that works out for these con men.

I can;t tell you how many times my 85 year old parents have told me the problem with Ignatieff or Rae or Layton, and their beliefs are WORD-FOR-WORD Conservative talking points.The Conservatives have followed the Cheney/Rove practise of U.S. polsitics — tell a lie that is so far to the right, that to “balance” it, you effectivly move the “middle”.

Imagine if you were given 10 billion dollars but told you would have to receive it at one dollar every second, or $3600.00 every hour and on and on and on. It would take 310 years in time, one second after another to reach the total amount of 10 billion !!!
How stupid do the CONS think Canadians are? Our tax money, and they spend and lie on spending and call any discrepancy a matter of accounting, and we have 4 more years of these idiots? It’s time for the whole lot to disappear. The next election will be welcomed and one thing is assured, the lies will come every second, every hour and on and on and on.

Keith thinks he will pay X amount of taxes over the next 36 years, based on an estimated lifetime of income and his estimate of tax-related expenses.
Bureaucrats say he will pay X plus 40% taxes based over a 20 year period and their estimate of allowable expenses.
Apparently Keith is willing to pay fines and go to jail over a disagreement of proposals.
For the sake of Keith`s family he should hire a lawyer.

Not sure if you’re trying to dispute my point or restate it less clearly.

Let me state it more clearly: when the rest of us get creative with our finances there is a cost to pay. Mackay thinks it’s perfectly legitimate to play fast and loose with the numbers. As a taxpayer who will be on the hook, I disagree.

Ask the Nortel employees and stockholders how they feel about the creative accounting practices their executive used to engage in…

I just find it amazing that because of your distaste for the Conservative government you would make the analogy that their crime concerning inaccurate future estimates is equivalent to you going to jail, not for last year`s inaccurate tax return, but for making an inaccurate estimate of your taxes in 36 years time.

The amount of the low ball is $13 billion not $ 10 billion. The PBOs figures will be closer (although still low) when all is said and done.

20 years of HR costs for two pilots and four mechanics per plane is less than 1% of $ 10 billion.
The accessories for the plane- $ 4.13 billion were in the original $ 9 billion costs.
The best estimate for the cost of the planes from the US government (this rise was not addressed by the AG) is up over $ 7 billion from $ 4.8 billion.
The O&M for the F-35 is now up to $ 17 billion if (and of course this is unlikely) MacKay is right.
Defence inflation is usually 7%.

The F-35s are on track to cost $ 39 billion before interest, refueling planes and replacing crashed F-35s for the first 20 years. Over 30 years this is likely a $100 billion dollar project. About $ 3 billion per year of the planes life cycle and then interest in perpetuity.

The mainstream media wasn’t complaining about lying and accountability when the Liberal government was lying and hiding the true multi-billion dollars costs of the long gun registry.

The mainstream media also showed no interest in previous defense procurement screwups under the Liberals…i.e. various helicopter programs, and the submarine program. If they had, the problems in DND might have been fixed long ago.

The mainstream media was silent for years while Chretien government advertising was being plastered mostly in Quebec promoting the Chretien government, with asking any questions at all. If the mainstream media had actually covered sponsorship from the beginning when the advertising was everywhere to be seen, it would have prevented the Liberals from committing political suicide.

Contrast that with the almost immediate hysteria by the mainstream media about the economic stimulus program (EAP advertising) for the advertising and media industry during the Great Recession, to support those Toronto-based industries during the economic crisis.

Initially the media was all over the accusations concerning Adscam, but with little fuel or proof it eventually faded.

Once there was actual proof provided by the AG, the media pounced again.

So what is your complaint exactly?

The robocall scandal is similar. Once the investigation is done and the results are in, THEN we can make a determination, and THEN the papers, who’ve now dropped the issue as they did Adscam after a few weeks, will attack anew, again, just as they did with Adscam.

“The mainstream media also showed no interest in previous defense procurement screwups under the Liberals…i.e. various helicopter programs, and the submarine program.”

What complete utter BS. Both got plenty of coverage. I personally gave the Libs grief over the helicopter nonsense, thanks to MSM reporting.

Handling of the DND portfolio was definitely not one of the Liberals’ strengths. But that does nothing to excuse the current blundering. Why is it your response to every screw-up is “the media are biased” and/or “the Liberals did it first”? It’s getting really old. Grow a pair and actually address the issues surrounding this government rather than always blaming others. That goes for the other CPC flacks on here as well.

A “Fat Cat Businessman” gains
the trust of a government official. Soon
“Fat-Cat Businessman” gives government / politician guy wads of cash in exchange
for unfettered access to all the good juicy untendered contracts.

If politician man can not find
willing and corrupt businessman, in a pinch, the politician will use one of his
friends or mistresses to start up a company, give them the contact, and then
those two start issuing inflated invoices, bam, split the graft, done.

Everyone else in society is left
scratching their heads trying to figure out why politician guy makes such weird
and crazy policy decisions that maken nO SeNsE.

repost from NP commentor: And I hope we all understand the contract
price and the invoice price are not the same. The aircraft is the loss-leader. The real money is in the “engineering
change orders” and the “service parts”.

And let’s not overlook the cash
bribes in exchange for the untendered contracts.

Repost from Adam Caldwell Toews -
An employee of the PMO’s office, Mr. Neigel Wright has ties to Lockheed
Martin. Explains everything; paying 200
million more than the US for the planes, quasi contracts, secrecy, etc. As per
Macleans:

repost from Michael McNeil -
There’s another form of payola. Business
men will fund lobbies who are friendly to Harper’s Reform Party. For intance, just as Tory backbenchers begin
making petitions against abortion, these individuals will financially support
PSAs. When oil companies need the
government’s help, the government will fund envriomental studies by pro-oil
environmentalists. All that remains is a
little reconcilliation between business groups.
At the end of the day, everyone gets what they want, and Tory MPs await
their “private pensions”, aka very lucrative private sector
consulting contracts or positions. There
remains no direct link or money trail for any auditor to discover. “No evidence, no crime.”

The real threat to our sovereignty is an economic threat. The Russians, Chinese, and the USA want and need our resources. It is not in their interest to bomb us. Rather, they are buying our country. This is not a threat that can be countered by fighter aircraft doing 500+knots or, for that matter, submarines under the water!

From now on, when the government provides an estimate of the cost of something like “state-of-the-art” fighter planes, we should all mentally tack on another $10 billion or so. After all, when politicians are campaigning hard to get elected, they will naturally try to minimize the cost of military programmes like new fighter jets.

The irony of all ironies: a government that rode a wave of accountability and transparency becomes the most centralized, unaccountable and obtuse government in Canadian history.

Nobody’s getting what they want here:

The social right is ignored.
The fiscal right is ignore.
The social liberals are disdained.
Even the fiscal liberals, who love spending like crazy as Harper has done, are watching the money go to things they detest.

Honestly, I’m having trouble understanding just who is winning with this government. LOL

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