Evil? In the post-modern world, evil is just a silly word used by moralists. It has no place in discussions about business... or taxation. After all, if one cannot expect businesses to act in a morally but to always and only be concerned about their bottom line regardless of who gets hurt, then why oh why would anyone expect that a tax code would be moral, regardless of who gets hurt.

Have you examined who they are? Largely the elderly, who have worked for decades and are no longer working so do you really expect them to be paying income tax? And also the working poor. Who are working, and ARE contributing in the form of payroll taxes (Social security, medicare) as well as state taxes, local taxes, sales taxes, excise taxes, etc. As a percentage of income, even with zero federal income tax, many are still paying a reasonably high percentage towards taxes.

So you're saying the elderly and working poor don't contribute? Well boo hoo...go cry in your bedroom....most of those have worked, or are currently working, just as hard as the average person around here. And those two categories are the bulk of the 47 percent you and romney dismiss.

So what? They pay. Fine. A progressive tax structure works like that. Apply it to all "persons," including those fine "corporate person." Tax them up the wazo rather than letting them get a free ride. Tax them till the wingtippers can no longer have their bonuses. Tax them till they are out of business... or until than actually do real capital investment and real job creation in the U.S.

The only reason to collect taxes in a free society is to fund the operation of government. All other purposes are immoral, being nothing more than theft using the threat of the force of government as a weapon.

".. the top ten percent of income earners in the United States pay in federal income taxes as opposed to any other industrialized nation in the world.

According to Moore, these earners pay almost half (45 percent) of the country's total taxes. This conclusion flies in the face of the liberal concept that top earners in the U.S. are not paying their "fair share" in taxes."

Evil? In the post-modern world, evil is just a silly word used by moralists. It has no place in discussions about business... or taxation. After all, if one cannot expect businesses to act in a morally but to always and only be concerned about their bottom line regardless of who gets hurt, then why oh why would anyone expect that a tax code would be moral, regardless of who gets hurt.

When you're collecting money at gunpoint, the last thing you want is to be dragged into a discussion about the morality of it all. The above is a tacit admission that taxation is morally no different than mob-extracted "protection money."

__________________If you've already accepted that "violence against the innocent" is a morally legitimate means of funding the government, who are you to complain when the majority apprporiates your legacy and sells your children into a lifetime of debt slavery?

You have, wilfully been led into confusing "creating" with "controlling". The Create companies that have multi-million dollar payrols. obviously that payrol becomes the employees to "control".

Why are the wealthy not entitled to keep the rewards from their efforts at the same proportion as everyone else? Are they LESS valuable than their employees BECAUSE they created the employee's jobs? I would argue that the person who creates, say, 100 taxpaying jobs, ought to get a "break" to reward him, not punished for doing it.

You have, wilfully been led into confusing "creating" with "controlling". The Create companies that have multi-million dollar payrols. obviously that payrol becomes the employees to "control".

Why are the wealthy not entitled to keep the rewards from their efforts at the same proportion as everyone else? Are they LESS valuable than their employees BECAUSE they created the employee's jobs? I would argue that the person who creates, say, 100 taxpaying jobs, ought to get a "break" to reward him, not punished for doing it.

How about we solve the moral dilemma by noting that taking money from individuals by threats of violence is primitive, evil, and we just stop doing it?

__________________If you've already accepted that "violence against the innocent" is a morally legitimate means of funding the government, who are you to complain when the majority apprporiates your legacy and sells your children into a lifetime of debt slavery?

__________________If you've already accepted that "violence against the innocent" is a morally legitimate means of funding the government, who are you to complain when the majority apprporiates your legacy and sells your children into a lifetime of debt slavery?

Have you examined who they are? Largely the elderly, who have worked for decades and are no longer working so do you really expect them to be paying income tax? And also the working poor. Who are working, and ARE contributing in the form of payroll taxes (Social security, medicare) as well as state taxes, local taxes, sales taxes, excise taxes, etc. As a percentage of income, even with zero federal income tax, many are still paying a reasonably high percentage towards taxes.

So you're saying the elderly and working poor don't contribute? Well boo hoo...go cry in your bedroom....most of those have worked, or are currently working, just as hard as the average person around here. And those two categories are the bulk of the 47 percent you and romney dismiss.

You mean to tell me that during the reign of GWB from 2000-2004 the percentage of zero or negative tax liability filers went up 8%?

And during Obama's administration 2008-2012 it went up an astounding 8%?

Oh, the humanity...

__________________Matter is merely energy condensed to a slow vibration; we are all one consciousness experiencing itself subjectively. There is no such thing as death. Life is a dream, and we're the imagination of ourselves. And now...the weather! ---- Bill Hicks

Have you examined who they are? Largely the elderly, who have worked for decades and are no longer working so do you really expect them to be paying income tax? And also the working poor. Who are working, and ARE contributing in the form of payroll taxes (Social security, Medicare) as well as state taxes, local taxes, sales taxes, excise taxes, etc. As a percentage of income, even with zero federal income tax, many are still paying a reasonably high percentage towards taxes.

So you're saying the elderly and working poor don't contribute? Well boo hoo...go cry in your bedroom....most of those have worked, or are currently working, just as hard as the average person around here. And those two categories are the bulk of the 47 percent you and Romney dismiss.

Objectively speaking, the elderly may very well be one of the largest areas of concern. Why? As one of the ones under the age of 45 I realize all the money I’ve paid into social security and Medicare will never be received or at the very least nowhere close to what I have contributed. As the elderly continue to push for “getting what’s mine” they show absolutely no regard for future generations. Selfishly, I understand this perspective. Realistically, the idea of “retirement” in this country needs a serious redefinition. My BIL’s father retired as a teacher at 55 with full pension and medical benefits – he is 73 now. An elderly lady I visit weekly is 99 – she retired after 27 years on federal pension and has been drawing benefits and pay for 44 years. She has been paid more in retirement than she ever made while working. What happened 100 years ago when people got old…they continued to work or their families helped out. I’m not saying have these people starve in the streets – but at some point the choices THEY made in regards to health, lifestyle and education should be held accountable to them. Case in Point: that 99 year old invested well, had no children and lived her entire life as if it was the Great Depression as it relates to spending. Even today in her assisted living facility (which SHE pays $7,000 a month for) she asks me to constantly turn off her AC or heat even though she doesn’t directly pay for it. As one of the 53%, I’m sick and tired of paying for other people’s bad choices.

When I need to try and reform someone’s flawed thinking as it relates to the poor I have found I need to start small. Answer this simple question: If someone is making minimum wage, working full time and making a gross salary of $15,080 a year is it fair to ask this person to pay $1 in federal taxes? The obvious answer is yes. If you can’t answer yes then you haven’t thought through since this is the same person who drives on the same roads you and I do, went to the same schools, uses the same post office, is protected by the same military etc. If you can answer yes….then congratulations…you have elevated your thinking past the b.s class warfare politicians thrive off of and you are FOR raising taxes on the “poor.” Remember, these 47% of Americans have no legal tax liability yet use all the services I mentioned just like the guy who makes $100K.

The second problem is poor shouldn’t be a “category” but a moment in time – however, many Americans have made this a career. My wife’s grandma’s neighbors- FOUR generations under the same roof on welfare. The great grandfather is 53…do the math.

I have been poor – I had a grocery budget of $20 a week…a ˝ gallon of milk was a luxury. I also had no a/c, cell phone, cable, video game consoles, health insurance and put exactly $5 in gas in my car every week – BTW, the car was an old Escort hand me down which carried no insurance. I worked hard – like a regular 40 hour a week job and tended bar every Friday and Saturday night for 4 years then switched to adding alternating Sundays for another two years in my 20’s (do the math that’s 58-70 hours a week). I work hard now-last year I was on a project working between 65-80 hours a week from February through August. I can do the math – the elderly today are basically robbing me of my money tomorrow.

You are right though…the poor do pay taxes. No one said they don’t pay anything – the point is they don’t pay Federal Tax which is a point no one can argue against because they don’t. However, as someone who isn’t poor guess what…I pay federal tax along with everything else the poor do…sales, property, state income, etc.

Citizens for Tax Justice produces an overall tax burden every year based on income – this is what percentage of your income ends up back in the government’s hands (Federal, State or Local). Ironically, the percentages are pretty similar at it relates to the total income made in this country. The richest 1% make about 20% of the income…and pay about 20% of all taxes….the richest 10% make about 46% of the income..and pay about 48% of the total taxes. The poor? Make about 3.4% of the income and pay about 2.1% of the overall taxes.

The point is people demonize the rich…or in this case the ones of us who pay into the system…guess what: We pay our fair share of taxes. The poor don’t – why? Our income is based off of working where the “income” of the nonworking poor is based off of what the government takes from my check. A nonworking member of the poor should not live better than a working member – but guess what, in many many cases they do. My MIL is one of them. On disability at 55 she gets food stamps, her disability check, heating and electric assistance for a time, low rent housing ($276 a month which includes utilities now) and her Medicaid coverage and benefits is better than what I get working. She spends her days gardening, reading all the books she wants, watches all the movies and TV she wants. Is she driving a Mercedes-no. Does she live basically a carefree lifestyle because of her own choices (aka smoking)…yep. Are you and me paying for it..yep. I saw the medical bills and payments for her inpatient stays over the past two years. She exhausted what she paid into the system after her 10th month.

You can’t lift the poor by penalizing the rest…and candidly its not my job to take care of someone else I don’t care to or someone who doesn’t want to take care of themselves

And for the record: let me introduce you to Pauline (aka the 99 year old) and let her talk to you about the Great Depression…this country needs to redefine “poor.” When being without a cell phone, cable and internet makes you “poor” we have serious problems.

Might as well throw this in: what do you think is going to happen to all those 47%’ers when the system crashes; it hard to predict but mathematically we are close to a system reboot…don’t think so…look at Greece, Spain. France, Ireland, etc.

__________________
Now when asked when I think things will change I answer "The next time Thomas (aka the fed) robs Peter (aka the 53%) to pay Paul (aka the 47%) and Peter pulls a gun...things will change"