First of all, I would like to issue an apology to the atheists. I am sorry for behaving in ways that you guys deem to be bad behavior. I am going to try very hard to not speak in ways that might be considered insulting.

With that said, I would like this thread to be about various religious discussion about Christianity and God. If you have a question for me, please ask it in this thread. Or if I come up with a topic to discuss, I will post it. This will save space on the board so I don't get accused of hijacking every thread and trolling the board.

Please guys, let's have a serious discussion in this thread.

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Matthew 10:22 "and you will be hated by all for my name’s sake. But the one who endures to the end will be saved." - Jesus (said 2,000 years ago and still true today.)

Suppose a very clever demon was responsible for orchestrating the collation of the Bible. His reason for doing this was to accurately report 99% of Yahweh's work, BUT to include within that Bible a few apparently minor but actually extremely important falsehoods. Those falsehoods would be accepted by believers (because they were contained within a Bible that otherwise seemed unimpeachable), but the nature of those falsehoods would mean that nobody accepting them could acheive salvation.

The question is: how can we tell whether this scenario is correct? How can we test it and prove it to be wrong?

- - - - -

Skeptic, you may find yourself getting multiple questions on this thread. If it begins to prove unmanageable, we can set them up as individual debates if you wish - that way you would have one question (and one questioner) per thread.

"I'm sorry if I have insulted you" is an apology. "I'm sorry if you think I have insulted you" is a non-apology apology. Your apology is the same as the latter; you aren't recognizing and apologizing for a behavior you consider insulting, you're apologizing on behalf of those that view your non-insulting behavior as insulting. But anyway, I don't feel as though I'm owed an apology...just wanted to point that out.

If there has only ever being ONE true God (who also created the universe and is all-loving and all-knowing) why does this god allow soo many different interpretations of his nature?

Let's say, for the purposes of argument, that Christians are actually closer to reality then anybody else why does this god continue to allow the majority of the world populations (past and present) (Muslims, Jews, Hindus, Buddists, ancient Egyptians, ancient Greeks,atheists, ... etc) to be deluded in their beliefs? Especially those that had never heard of Jesus Christ?

There are hundreds of thousands of mutually exclusive creation myths in existence. Only ONE can be correct or they are ALL wrong. If there is ONE correct version of the creation then THIS version had to be told to mankind by THIS god (Man could not have witnessed our own creation).

Why did THIS god decide to tell only a relatively small group of people in around the East Mediterranean the REAL TRUE story?

First of all, I would like to issue an apology to the atheists. I am sorry for behaving in ways that you guys deem to be bad behavior. I am going to try very hard to not speak in ways that might be considered insulting.

With that said, I would like this thread to be about various religious discussion about Christianity and God. If you have a question for me, please ask it in this thread. Or if I come up with a topic to discuss, I will post it. This will save space on the board so I don't get accused of hijacking every thread and trolling the board.

Please guys, let's have a serious discussion in this thread.

I'm not going to ask any of the typical "why" questions regarding your theology b/c I am all too familiar with the spin and rationalizations that you will concoct in order to try and justify them in spite of all evidence to the contrary. If your past on this board is any indication of how you will answer then there is really no point in discussing "why God did X" b/c there is absolutely nothing that could be pointed out to you in that book that could persuade you that your interpretations are in error (since obviously you are committed to it's confirmation - which is confirmation bias - by hook or by crook). Your view is unfalsifiable. Just like the astrologers or Scientology, you are wholly committed to your dogma. Instead of being open-minded and willing to change your view (if shown to be in error or using illogical arguments) you have glued yourself to the assumption you made at the outset. "The bible is the word of God!" you proclaimed, and then began searching for things to confirm. Well Skep, that is 100% backwards to an honest search for truth.

So, my question to you is this: When did you first come to be exposed to Christian teaching (in any form) and how did you first come to believe in 'Jesus'? What is your "testimony"? Give us a detailed history. Please keep in mind that if you leave out any important details to the story you will (according to your own doctrine) be Bearing False Witness.

Often, it's said that "the word of god" is simply the theist projecting their own ideas and opinions onto a "god being" of some sort. Whatever their beliefs, god also "happens" to agree with them. Can you demonstrate to the contrary? I don't mean a minor nitpick. I mean something significant that you strongly, I mean strongly disagree on.

Suppose a very clever demon was responsible for orchestrating the collation of the Bible. His reason for doing this was to accurately report 99% of Yahweh's work, BUT to include within that Bible a few apparently minor but actually extremely important falsehoods. Those falsehoods would be accepted by believers (because they were contained within a Bible that otherwise seemed unimpeachable), but the nature of those falsehoods would mean that nobody accepting them could acheive salvation.

The question is: how can we tell whether this scenario is correct? How can we test it and prove it to be wrong?

- - - - -

Skeptic, you may find yourself getting multiple questions on this thread. If it begins to prove unmanageable, we can set them up as individual debates if you wish - that way you would have one question (and one questioner) per thread.

The bold question is easily answered by saying that you made up this fact based on nothing but your imagination. There is no book saying that the Bible is a word of a demon.

Where do you get your knowledge of demons?

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Matthew 10:22 "and you will be hated by all for my name’s sake. But the one who endures to the end will be saved." - Jesus (said 2,000 years ago and still true today.)

If there has only ever being ONE true God (who also created the universe and is all-loving and all-knowing) why does this god allow soo many different interpretations of his nature?

Let's say, for the purposes of argument, that Christians are actually closer to reality then anybody else why does this god continue to allow the majority of the world populations (past and present) (Muslims, Jews, Hindus, Buddists, ancient Egyptians, ancient Greeks,atheists, ... etc) to be deluded in their beliefs? Especially those that had never heard of Jesus Christ?

There are hundreds of thousands of mutually exclusive creation myths in existence. Only ONE can be correct or they are ALL wrong. If there is ONE correct version of the creation then THIS version had to be told to mankind by THIS god (Man could not have witnessed our own creation).

Why did THIS god decide to tell only a relatively small group of people in around the East Mediterranean the REAL TRUE story?

I can not tell you why God does the things He does. I can only say that He does them. I do believe that God wants us to come to Christianity out of study and an open mind. The other religions are a test to see who falls for the demons of the other religions and who can identify the demons and come to embrace Christianity and all it's beauty and glory.

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Matthew 10:22 "and you will be hated by all for my name’s sake. But the one who endures to the end will be saved." - Jesus (said 2,000 years ago and still true today.)

The christian religion appears to be based on two basic kinds of "truths". One, that relevant observable phenomena is consistent with whichever creation story/general explanations the believer adheres to and two, that a whole bunch of unobserved things are exceedingly true. Being saved, the power of prayer, the requirement of faith, that JC died for our sins, and even sins themselves, for example.

For a believer to participate in that POV, they have to learn and then accept all of the parameters and guidelines. And they have to accept them. And while the process itself is probably no different than the one we use to learn table manners or our native language, the effect it has on such believers is, to one degree or another, unusually powerful.

That being said, if one is to try to draw an accurate conclusions from the small sampling of christians or alleged christians we have had visit us on on this site, no two end up having identical thoughts and/or beliefs on the subject. In other words, each believer has been whopped up side the head, so to speak, with a powerful message, but it never takes the same form from inside their skull. Well, maybe not never, but seldom. Even members of tight knit religious groups differ on various details of doctrine or ceremony. Members of the same congregation can busy themselves backbiting each other over tiny details, all the while happily labeling the entire group as being a unified christian this or christian that.

In other words, the message being passed down is powerful, but not powerful (or perhaps accurate) enough to provide coherency or consistency amongst believers. In more oppressive times, such as when the catholic church held dominion over virtually all followers of the christian god and Jesus, there may have been less variation, but Martin Luther hammering a nail in the church door 500 years ago demonstrates that it wasn't all puppy dogs and kittens then either.

Within christianity, there is generic agreement, yes, but specific agreement? No.

A good example would be the myriad versions of heaven and/or hell that we've been told about here on the site. Some will come here and insist that all who fail to accept Jesus will surely burn in hell forever. Others tell us that we are all going to heaven, because there really isn't a hell. Or the hell will be a temporary landing spot. And then some tell us how wonderful heaven will be while others say that very little is known about heaven and that they are just hoping it is as nice as promised.

Some come here insisting that the bible is literal and that the world is 6,000 years old, while others concede evolution, but insist that god started it all

I think that individual believers are following the god that they have been told about, but that they are also following the god that they want. And that such customization is the logical result of generic beliefs haphazardly slapped together and inconsistency passed on. It is a story told thousands of years ago by individuals unable to foresee the future that would be caused by their localized and made up little tales, which were initially intended to either explain or control. And that view helps explain why those stories don't have the coherence necessary to create a consistency one might expect were it all true.

So here is (are) my question(s). Why is the word of your god the source for so many variations? Why is the christian religion, and religions claiming to be christian (but not christian by your standards), so varied? And how could a person interested in becoming a christian find the right version, especially if they made the mistake of asking two different christians for proper instruction/advise?

And don't give me some answer that involves a persons "feelings". That's the prime cause of these variations in the first place. If loving Jesus and getting to heaven are high priorities, doing it right seems relevant. Feelings shouldn't mean a thing.

(And do keep in mind that I am probably the only atheist on the site who has not given you a negative karma. You haven't pissed me off enough. Which means you can either appreciate my civility and answer sincerely or eagerly seek a 100% disapproval rating. Like with religion, that choice is yours.)

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It isn't true that non-existent gods can't do anything. For instance, they were able to make me into an atheist.

Often, it's said that "the word of god" is simply the theist projecting their own ideas and opinions onto a "god being" of some sort. Whatever their beliefs, god also "happens" to agree with them. Can you demonstrate to the contrary? I don't mean a minor nitpick. I mean something significant that you strongly, I mean strongly disagree on.

I may disagree with some things like a child disagrees with the parent but still loves them with their whole heart and soul.

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Matthew 10:22 "and you will be hated by all for my name’s sake. But the one who endures to the end will be saved." - Jesus (said 2,000 years ago and still true today.)

Yes, Nam. I discussed this in my other threads. I was a wild one back in the day before I came to Christ. Now, I am celibate by choice until I get married.

Nothing but Jesus could have changed my life. There's no reason to change if there's no God. God is obviously real. There's absolutely no feeling the world like the Holy Spirit flowing through you. Once someone experiences this, no amount of rational argument can dissuade you from the Eternal King.

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Matthew 10:22 "and you will be hated by all for my name’s sake. But the one who endures to the end will be saved." - Jesus (said 2,000 years ago and still true today.)

No, I was talking about variation in christianity. Answer #10 was about variations among all religions. I'm asking why one bible, on religion, comes in so many flavors. And why those differences go beyond denominations and go so far as to be absolutely individual interpretations in some cases. Yours, for instance.

Nor did you answer how someone interested in becoming a christian can pick the right version.

My long screeds don't go away that easily.

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It isn't true that non-existent gods can't do anything. For instance, they were able to make me into an atheist.

No, I was talking about variation in christianity. Answer #10 was about variations among all religions. I'm asking why one bible, on religion, comes in so many flavors. And why those differences go beyond denominations and go so far as to be absolutely individual interpretations in some cases. Yours, for instance.

Nor did you answer how someone interested in becoming a christian can pick the right version.

My long screeds don't go away that easily.

It's very simple. You read Jesus' words and you follow them and believe He is your savior and repent of your sins. There's lots of false prophets out there that deceive people into believing stuff that isn't found in the Bible.

As a simple example, nothing about Catholicism is in the Bible. You can see it for yourself. Don't take my word for it.

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Matthew 10:22 "and you will be hated by all for my name’s sake. But the one who endures to the end will be saved." - Jesus (said 2,000 years ago and still true today.)

Often, it's said that "the word of god" is simply the theist projecting their own ideas and opinions onto a "god being" of some sort. Whatever their beliefs, god also "happens" to agree with them. Can you demonstrate to the contrary? I don't mean a minor nitpick. I mean something significant that you strongly, I mean strongly disagree on.

Often, it's said that "the word of god" is simply the theist projecting their own ideas and opinions onto a "god being" of some sort. Whatever their beliefs, god also "happens" to agree with them. Can you demonstrate to the contrary? I don't mean a minor nitpick. I mean something significant that you strongly, I mean strongly disagree on.

No, I was talking about variation in christianity. Answer #10 was about variations among all religions. I'm asking why one bible, on religion, comes in so many flavors. And why those differences go beyond denominations and go so far as to be absolutely individual interpretations in some cases. Yours, for instance.

Nor did you answer how someone interested in becoming a christian can pick the right version.

My long screeds don't go away that easily.

They are there because of the false prophets. God wants us to think for ourselves instead of being spoonfed the information in a "bible for dummies" type of way. What's the point of having a brain if God won't let us use it?

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Matthew 10:22 "and you will be hated by all for my name’s sake. But the one who endures to the end will be saved." - Jesus (said 2,000 years ago and still true today.)

No, I was talking about variation in christianity. Answer #10 was about variations among all religions. I'm asking why one bible, on religion, comes in so many flavors. And why those differences go beyond denominations and go so far as to be absolutely individual interpretations in some cases. Yours, for instance.

Nor did you answer how someone interested in becoming a christian can pick the right version.

My long screeds don't go away that easily.

They are there because of the false prophets. God wants us to think for ourselves instead of being spoonfed the information in a "bible for dummies" type of way. What's the point of having a brain if God won't let us use it?

Have you been so kind as to make a list of all the false prophets, and of course, a list of the unfalse prophets, so that those around you who want to do christianity right can have something to work with?

What's the point of having a brain if god can't provide clear enough info to be useful. You do realize that many who tell us that they are christian would also tell us that you are being led by a false prophet. I'm just wondering whose criteria I should use.

What makes you sure that you've got it right? How can you tell? Is it just your brain saying "Yup, this is it!". And how can those who listen to false prophets and whose brains say "Yup, this is it!" be provided with corrective information by you, the enlgihtened one?

Its kind of ironic. Those of us who don't listen to any of the prophets aren't really the source of your biggest problem. There are millions who think they believe in your god but they have it wrong, and you, as a true christian, know that they have it wrong, and you could, if you had a way of passing on the special information you have received and accepted, save the whole lot. And here you sit, concentrating on a whole frickin' boatload of atheists who won't ever listen anyway. Wouldn't your time be better spent taking correcting the good intentioned errors of those who think they are christian but are not rather than us, who you couldn't convince if we were standing at the entrance to hell and hearing all the screams?

My friend George, who thinks he is a true christian, who has taught himself Greek so he can read parts of the bible in the original language, thinks that there is no hell with brimstone. Instead, hell is being separated from god for an eternity. I'm talking a wild-assed guess and thinking that you disagree with him on that. But at least he acknowledges, or tries to acknowledge, the same god you believe in. There are millions out there like him. What the fuck are you doing here, where you haven't made a trillionth of an inch of progress in the "saving souls" department.

Go find those like George in your neighborhood. Because with people like him, you have a chance. You will never have the amount of energy required to instill even the slightest doubt in anyone here. And I'm pretty sure I speak for all of us non-believers. If I don't, those who disagree can correct me. But as one the demons have never bothered fucking with, I'm pretty sure I'm right on this one.

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It isn't true that non-existent gods can't do anything. For instance, they were able to make me into an atheist.

Yes, Nam. I discussed this in my other threads. I was a wild one back in the day before I came to Christ. Now, I am celibate by choice until I get married.

Nothing but Jesus could have changed my life. There's no reason to change if there's no God. God is obviously real. There's absolutely no feeling the world like the Holy Spirit flowing through you. Once someone experiences this, no amount of rational argument can dissuade you from the Eternal King.

If there has only ever being ONE true God (who also created the universe and is all-loving and all-knowing) why does this god allow soo many different interpretations of his nature?

Let's say, for the purposes of argument, that Christians are actually closer to reality then anybody else why does this god continue to allow the majority of the world populations (past and present) (Muslims, Jews, Hindus, Buddists, ancient Egyptians, ancient Greeks,atheists, ... etc) to be deluded in their beliefs? Especially those that had never heard of Jesus Christ?

There are hundreds of thousands of mutually exclusive creation myths in existence. Only ONE can be correct or they are ALL wrong. If there is ONE correct version of the creation then THIS version had to be told to mankind by THIS god (Man could not have witnessed our own creation).

Why did THIS god decide to tell only a relatively small group of people in around the East Mediterranean the REAL TRUE story?

I can not tell you why God does the things He does. I can only say that He does them. I do believe that God wants us to come to Christianity out of study and an open mind. The other religions are a test to see who falls for the demons of the other religions and who can identify the demons and come to embrace Christianity and all it's beauty and glory.

If you don't know why your god does the things he does, how do you know that he is telling you the truth?

Your blind faith leaves you very vulnerable to manipulation by very powerful aliens or demons who make you feel good about yourself by messing with your mind. You could just be being groomed by lulling you into a false sense of security with promises of heaven in the afterlife.

If a very powerful alien appeared to me from the sky amongst thunder and lightning and then proceded to show me all sorts magical tricks that seem to defy the laws of physics I would be amazed and be in awe. If this alien then showed compassion by restoring broken limbs of aninmals I would be impressed. If this alien further told me that he created the universe and he is all-good. Why should I believe him? Why should I not believe him?