40 comments:

If wishes and buts were candy and nuts...could have, should have...yes, he should have said that before the election.

He should have said it 5, 10, 20 years ago, along with the REST of American churches, since the 1960s, when this utterly damnable, hate-filled holocaust started.

We've lost an entire generation...we murdered them in the name of "freedom". Of what? Convenience. Lives aren't worth much of anything, so it's OK. And it's not really alive, right?

I read Al Mohler's series being posted on his blog so far. Incredbile. Where was all of this 20-30 years ago? In small churches and megachurches? Roe V. Wade didn't happen overnight. What the heck happened to lead up to it?Why has it gotten to this point, and now, invariably, has the potential to get much more horrific as we export this evil belief to other nations, who gladly pick this up to extort and destroy their own citizens?

Piper and Mohler and some others are now going where we should have gone 30 years ago. Up until about 5 years ago, I was against abortion except in the case of race or incest. When a friend of mine took me to a video presentation of a baby being murdered ("Silent Scream"), the forthright truth was demonstrated that when an unborn baby is murdered, there are now two victims instead of one...I was blown away. Why isn't this message getting out? This is Biblical, not whether or not I should buy slightly more expensive shoes or something like that. This is murder...MURDER! On those who are innocent and the most vulnerable.

HSAT...I'm glad they're saying it...and now every church and pastor should be teaching this before we lose another generation. That is, if God doesn't punish us rightfully before then. We need repentance, massively and quickly, for our heinous deeds, that we may be forgiven, before God lets His judgment fly even more so on America now.

Well, there you go...you asked! Dan, I'd like to know what you think, after some other readers have chimed in...

When he released that earlier video, I was extremely perplexed. Precisely because he's long been very vocal about the sanctity of life and the unspeakable wickedness of abortion. Just off the top of my head, I'm remembering a chapter about fasting for the end of abortion, and an article from one of the Godward Life books about spending nights in jail following protests at abortion clinics. So he's been preaching and acting against abortion for what, at least 15 years now?

On top of that: in any discussion about single-issue voting among evangelicals, you'll almost certainly have this Piper article referenced. It's a perfectly cromulent stance: no single issue can qualify one for office, but there are many that by themselves disqualify. Wishing to allow unborn children to be slaughtered certainly is a disqualifier for me - and it's the one Piper specifically lays out the case for in the article. Given Obama's campaign threats, Piper should not have (by his own standards) even entertained the thought of voting for him, or speaking of him in a way that could be considered an endorsement.

Given what Piper has clearly expressed regarding how he votes, any discussion of The Obama simply must have included an unmistakably clear statement that he could never even consider voting for him. Instead, he put out that wishy-washy video equivocating between the various faults of the candidates, implying that voting for either is fine. This was flat-out wrong of him, and goes against what he's said so brilliantly on the record previously and since.

If he could not vote for Obama, the only question remaining would be if there was a similar disqualifier for McCain/Palin. If so, then clearly pronounce both tickets to be unacceptable. If not, Obama was still completely unacceptable, and he should have said so, unmistakably and forcefully!

Do I have to add a disclaimer about how much I respect John Piper? A quick glance at my library would reveal that, etc etc. But in this video, he completely dropped the ball. Releasing this video was at best majorly unwise.

Frankly, I'm surprised it made it public in that form. Surely at least a few people at DG saw it before it was posted. What happened? How did this get out being so confused, contradictory of his other published work, and just all-around bad? Unfortunately, it looks like more than a few people were asleep at the wheel for this one.

I actually listened to the whole abortion message that Piper preached this past Sunday on my way to Bible study today. (Piper's Sunday messages is one of my regular podcasts - he is a great preacher as long as he stays away from politics).

It was overall an excellent message on the evil on abortion which made me more annoyed at him wondering when he was criticizing the President for the statement he made on the Roe v. Wade anniversary. I remember just getting really annoyed and saying, "what did you think would happen?!"

I got annoyed at some other things, but I'll stop there.

Gilbert - My guess is that Palin is included in the tag, because of Piper's cheap shot against Gov. Palin. (By the way, Palin is truly pro-life, more than President Bush, as she does not have the exceptions of rape and incest).

Also, Gilbert, I don't know if you know this, but Piper is an avid, avid, proponent with all caps of the pro-life position. He's even been put in jail for doing block-ins on abortion clinics. Believe me, he has said this 5, 10, 15, 20 years. Which makes his cheap shot against Gov. Palin and his past excitement before the election of the possibility of Obama being President even more puzzling.

Here's what happened. Piper clearly is passionate and has been for years on the pro-life. So, what happened? Simple, he got caught up on this stuff and he basically admits this if you review the first clip, on the prospect of a black President. Add that to Piper's confession of his racist past and him being able to weep over his past sins on past racism and reflect on our nation's black mark history - he got caught up on all that.

It's funny seeing the three contrasts between my three favorite preachers - MacArthur, Piper and Sproul. MacArthur - I love him to death but says absolutely nothing because he doesn't care about politics and I think that is just as bad as a travesty as what Piper did. Piper gets carried away because of his experiences - travesty and missed opportunity. Now, I'm sure there were other preachers that spoke out, but out of the three only RC Sproul spoke out and spoke out correctly.

In his original video he seems to be giving the basic premise of whatever happens that God is Sovereign and whether we're to be judged is up to God.

I've tried to come to terms with what Obama will mean to this country. This election, more than the last two, made me really think about what is really important when voting for someone as President of the United States. Whether they're Democrat or Republican it doesn't really matter what kind of prosperity they may bring to this country if they're doing it without any thought as to what is happening with the abortion issue.

I think people are very naive if they think abortion isn't one of the major issues on both sides of the table. I'd even go so far as to say that a good portion of the American public would have voted for McCain if they thought he'd leave their abortion rights alone.

People feared that Sarah Palin would go after women's "reproductive rights" and they'd lose even more "excuses" when it came to their beloved "right" of abortion on demand.

Well, to get back to the point of the thread. Whether Piper should have been stronger as he was in the new video before the election is up in the air to me. Would it have made a difference to people who listen to him anyways? I am seriously concerned for those professing Christians out there who voted for Obama knowing that he was the most extreme abortion advocate in all of the United States Congress. Could we, as Christians, done anything to keep this from happening? Maybe, maybe not. It's too late of course and our only hope is that he lied when he stated that he would sign the Freedom of Choice Act.

Has our judgment come because of our slackness concerning abortion or our treatment of the gospel?

Most people who favor abortion have absolutely no idea what it entails, they are willfully ignorant of what is actually being done. They don't want to know, they almost glory in the idea of not knowing. Just imagine if they were to show a live abortion on the nightly news. Who do you think would be more outraged? People who oppose abortions or the people who approve of them?

Jon: snip snip I am seriously concerned for those professing Christians out there who voted for Obama knowing that he was the most extreme abortion advocate in all of the United States Congress. Could we, as Christians, done anything to keep this from happening?

See, here's the thing Jon, how are some Christians out there who voted for Obama (or de facto voted for Obama by voting third party) going to know this if the church is not telling the flock on what principles to look for in voting for a leader.

You know, Jon, we've had a couple of people admit here on Dan's blog they made a mistake, either in voting for Obama or third party. I praise God for that, that they did learn their mistake. It takes humility to do that and I rejoiced that they realized their mistake.

But can you blame some of these Christians that voted that way when you have some preachers that don't care about politics? I'm not saying one has to do a series. RC Sproul did one sermon and a brilliant one at that and he was able to do it within the confines sec 501(c) {I forget the code}.

We are citizens of the kingdom of God but we are also exiles in this city and while in exile here we should do good in the city that we are exiled in. Some preachers said nothing about this important election that would impact the life of the unborn.

Again, it's not all on Piper (at least he cared about the election albeit his feelings were misguided), I mean there were preachers who again, didn't care about the election and didn't care if Obama won.

I'm like like saying to myself, you think the Lord didn't care about who won? I mean the Lord ordains every single evil act that occurs from the rape or murder of a child to an election of certain person. The fact that He ordains evil doesn't make the an evil act, less evil.

So, while yes, as with you, I'm seriously concerned with Christians who voted for Obama and did not realize their error, I'm also concerned with pastors who didn't inform their flock on how to be good stewards of their vote.

At the risk of sounding like a troll, perhaps the answers lies not in who we elect to president, but instead in the battle to share the gospel with people. Perhaps if we (and I'm pointing fingers at the evangelical church as a whole, not at anyone in particular) focused on the glory of God and spreading the gospel, this evil will go away.

Personally, I am convinced that we spend far too much time focused on political issues in this country as Christians and not enough time disciplining and mentoring the flock. If we would spend more time educating people rather than entertaining them, this wouldn't be an issue.

Somehow I think the church is to blame for this. Not that some within her walls voted for now President Obama, but instead that we allow people to come in and not leave changed by the preaching of the word because that same preaching is about THEM not about GOD. Only in a church where the message is on a god that will make your life better could the concept of voting for a pro-abortion person work.

And one last item: voting for a third party is no more voting for the winner than voting for the first loser. A vote for Mr. Nader wasn't a vote for Mr. McCain any more than my vote for Mr. Baldwin was a vote for Mr. Obama. This is faulty logic. I do not regret voting my conscious rather than voting for the one that the "religious right" tells me to vote for. Even if every single person who voted for a third party had voted for Mr. McCain, he still would have lost. Further, a little research shows that even if McCain won all those votes, he still would've come up short in the electoral college.

Thomas, you don't sound like a troll, but you do sound new to the blog — in which case, welcome!

Anyone who reads me knows what molten death I am on gelatinous, spineless, meatless, man-centered preaching. In principle, we're agreed there. But the Word touches all of life, since Christ is Lord of all. There is no principled reason not to teach in ways that have an impact on citizenship, including voting.

Thanks for the warm welcome. "Long time reader, first time poster, yadda yadda..."

I guess my main point is that while we should vote for Godly men (which would have excluded both of the two major candidates), the outcome of the election was done BEFORE we went to vote. That, I think, was the point of Piper's original message. Now that it is over, we need to hold Mr. Obama to the same standard we would've held Mr. McCain or any other candidate.

While I wish that Mr. Obama would've lost the election, I also know that Romans teaches us that the leaders are appointed by God. While I have no idea what the purpose of Mr. Obama is, we know that he serves at the will and descretion of the Father. In other words, Mr. Obama was elected to be elected. =)

In the meantime, we are called to be light and salt in the world. And that means we hold our leaders to account when they violate scripture. This is what I think Mr. Piper was doing in this message (which I haven't heard in it's entirety as I'm woefully behind in listening to sermons on the 'pod...)

The thing is, nobody but God KNEW the outcome of the election before it occurred. Piper's earlier dither is dated Oct 31, when minds were still being made up. And if you bring in the sovereignty of God then, in the final analysis, EVERYTHING is settled before we do anything — but the counsel of despair is not the Christian position.

As to Romans 13, I have argued at great length that it's a bit more complex than saying "Oh well, now that Obama's the king we have to support him and wish him well."

I've stayed out of this election fray, but I feel compelled to chime in here.

I'm on a non-speakered computer, so I can't re-listen to the vids right now, but I think:

1) In the first Piper video, he was commenting on the historic factors in the election - a viable female VP candidate, and African American Presidential candidate. Not commenting on platforms and issues.

2) At the time, everyone was discussing whether or not Palin was fit for office. In that light, Piper's points were on-topic.

3) Piper's vehement, vocal, and frequent tirades against abortion have been well known. He's preached (heated) sermons annually in January crying out for justice for the unborn.

4) Anyone who knows Piper and gave a rip about what he thinks already *knew* that Piper would consider abortion a deal breaker. He made open anti-abortion, abortion-as-litmus-test in other forums.

Perhaps, given the figurehead role that God has given him, Piper could've/should've been more forceful in the original video.

However, I think you're ignoring both the context of the original video and the record of Piper's ministry in your current critique.

I'm hardly 'happy' that President Obama was elected... But, I would challenge you, brother, that your disposition in many of your post-election posts has really been one of sour grapes more than constructive (or even 'prophetic') criticism. The tone, IMHO, leaves a lot to be desired.

I have a great amount of respect for you, so I hope you take that comment as I intend it.

Certainly we can't just throw up our hands and say, "It is what it is." Certainly we need to be active in the public square. We can pray for Mr. Obama while we encourage and exhort him to do the correct thing. And I do believe to pray for a radical conversion to know the God of the Bible is something we need to pray that Mr. Obama would see and experience for himself.

That, I think, is our focus in Romans 13. Moreover, I think that is our focus for everyone. Working against injustice is merely an avenue to proclaim the Gospel. Now, more than ever, we need to keep the main thing the main thing: and the main thing is Jesus.

And back to topic, hindsight is 20/20. We all can look back and wished we'd been more forceful on things.

I have scores and scores of regrets. I could fill out the rest of the year posting on my regrets. (But then I'd regret that... which would be one more post.)

As to this past election, I've none. I did my very best, worked as hard as I could on the platforms I had, to inform and persuade, appeal and reason, warn and bullyrag. Of the things under my control, as of yet I have no regrets.

About that.

In one inconsequential blogger's opinion, I don't think Piper is in the same position, on this one matter.

Your "tone" is what I like best about this blog - I am ever one to put form over substance - keep the sour grapes coming! What positive spin, after all, is one expected to put on the greatest advocate of mass murder since Genghis Khan?

In regards to third party voting, I would say this. I voted third party in this election, and tried to defend myself with the "voting my conscience defense". The only problem is that is, as Dan has pointed out, faulty logic in itself. Barr, Baldwin, McKinney, and Nader had NO shot of winning the presidency. None, zilch, zero, natta. Therefore, no matter how great their policies and ideals were, they had no chance of getting implemented or introduced. That left us with two VERY flawed candidates that had a legit shot to win the presidency. You have one who is flawed when it comes to economic issues and some foreign policy issues. But he is not going to expand abortion rights or homosexual rights. The other is also flawed when it comes to the economy and foreign policy. However he is going to do whatever he can to expand abortion and homosexual rights. This is the decision we were left with.

By voting third party, we did two things. One, we took our own vote away from the one candidate who was not going to go against Biblical principles on issues like abortion and homosexual marriage. Not only that, but we took the votes of those we came in contact with away from him as well. We didn't criticize the Obama voter as much as we did the McCain voter, and therefore allowed them to vote for Obama. We persuaded family and friends to vote third party. Imagine if everyone that had voted third party not only voted for McCain, but persuaded those close to them not to vote for Obama. What would the result have been? We will never know because we decided to vote our "conscience".

I had to honestly repent of my vote for Bob Barr, and every day that goes by and I see the things that Obama is doing that are absolutely anti-Biblical, it eats me up inside. It makes me angry that a man who professes to be a Christian would do such things, but we shouldn't be surprised. This is what he said he was going to do. And we were blinded by hatred for Bush, excitement of the first African American President, or hatred of McCain/Palin, and allowed this man to take the presidency while we stood on the side lines. And I think that is where Piper is now. He got caught up in the excitement, and he let that guide him. He now sees the error of that thinking, and is going on the offensive. Too late to change the outcome of the election? Yes. Too late to change hearts and minds with the Biblical view of abortion and the Gospel? I hope not.

This is a conversation we've had before, so I'll be brief. I don't believe it is the job of a pastor to tell you how to vote. It's also not the job of Capitol Ministries or any other religious organization in politics to tell you how to vote. Note that CM has NEVER done that. It IS their job to encourage people to set their minds on things above, not on this world, and to guide them in conforming their minds and hearts, under the power of the Holy Spirit, to Jesus Christ. I thought Piper did an amazing job in that first video highlighting things that in my mind disqualified both tickets, (Obama/abortion)...Palin (biblical roles of wife and motherhood) w/o actually telling people how to vote. Anybody with half a brain can read between those lines and figure out where he was going.

As he indicated, keep the prophetic perspective in mind, don't make politics your idol, and PRAY for your political leaders. Us politicos knew these executive orders were coming, and yet God has ordained them and our President, from eternity past by appointing the rulers and authorities of this age. (Romans 13) What more can we do then pray, continue to reach out with the Gospel, and exhibit a sense of righteous anger when appropriate, as Piper has done?

David: This is a conversation we've had before, so I'll be brief. I don't believe it is the job of a pastor to tell you how to vote.

David, have you by chance listened to RC Sproul's sermon on principles to choose to a leader. I linked in one of my posts above. I really strongly disagree it's not the pastor's job to tell you how to vote. Sproul does it better than I can explain it in a few words. I hope you'll listen to his sermon and tell us what you think after.

Well, dear bro, I think Piper had two acceptable options. The poorer one would have been to say nothing. The better one would have been to lay down some clear, absolute guidelines.

What he did instead was dither and emote. Virtually all of us who heard him agreed that, whatever he has on his record or in his heart, he gave "an uncertain sound," as the KJV was said. That's what he did, and the effect was muddled and unhelpful.

The Palin issue was often and well-answered and Biblically dealt with, and a man in his position (IMHO) really didn't have a good reason still to be publicly dithering about it.

And now, to be pounding his fist in moral outrage about how appalling Obama's position on abortion is... well, he could have said all of that in that video.

I can't help thinking that a big part of Piper's electoral mushiness was due to the whole race factor. He's the only "big name" pastor that places so much emphasis on racial issues, and I wonder if some of that is because of his upbringing in the South and experiences there. And when a man like Thabiti Anyabwile (who has been so vocal about race being a non-factor in the Christian life) is moved to compose poetry celebrating a black man being in the White House, I just have to believe that this is a piece of the puzzle I will most likely never understand.

And I'm 100% with Thomas on the Gospel angle. A lot of people's idols of success and security are being smashed, and they are looking to an earthly Messiah to glue those idols back together. I think God is on the record as being kind of against that whole approach.

There's certainly never been a better time to pray fervently for revival, especially in the church. And I certainly am praying more for the president and our country that I ever have. And I'm kind of thankful for that.

((Now ducking as Dan throws a big shoe at me for pulling another Pollyanna.))

CR: I will certainly attempt to track down that sermon and give it a listen, as I'm always interested to see how pastors dovetail theology and politics, even though I don't think they should.

Dan: I agree with your response RE: Piper had two choices and dithered. However, I think a broader question needs to be asked, which is WHY McArthur (who is also on Capitol Ministries Board) never speaks on politics, and WHY Capitol Ministries never took a position on the Presidency, Prop 8, etc. I believe voting is a conscience issue that the Bible never addresses directly, so pastors shouldn't directly address it either in a public forum, and certainly should not provide endorsements because it needlessly divides a church. In fact, I would have preferred Piper never spoke at all on this, because of the simple fact he was somewhat unhelpful and did muddy the waters. Case in point, I believe a vote for Sarah Palin was just as biblically troubling as voting for Barack. Dan disagreed, as did half my church, and that's fine. If we are going to divide though, let’s not do it on conscience issues.

While my heart grieves for those professing believers who voted for Barack, I can only pray that the Lord would use the next four years to prick their consciences and conform their wills more and more to Christ. Remember, Christians are not called to moralize the lost, but to evangelize using the Gospel. I know professing believers who voted for Barack. I have two choices...I could shame them for playing a part in killing hundreds of thousands of innocent babies, or I could lovingly point them back to Scripture and allow the Holy Spirit to inform their consciences, so they don't make the same mistake again in 2012. Again however, voting is a conscience issue that those in ministry should refrain from publically engaging on, and I commend McArthur, unlike Piper, for not putting his foot in his mouth here.

And just by way of background, I am heavily involved in politics as the lead lobbyist for a major anti-tax organization in California, and routinely interact with both legislators and staff in the State Capitol.

I can't necessarily say this about Piper, but I wonder about it nonetheless.

Don't you think that many pastors/preachers put a wet blanket on what they could potentially say on issues because they (or their church) is afraid of losing the tax-exempt status? That issue has been growing on me in recent years. Nothing should silence the prophetic voice of the church, but that sure has done it in many cases.

Unless you're in African-American churches when people like Rev. Jesse Jackson and Rev. Al Sharpton show up. They can politick from the pulpit and nothing ever gets said.

Also, David, the Bible does not speak directly about voting because there was no such thing as a constitutional republic in the minds of the writers. But what the Bible does speak of is what governments should look like or do. And you say that voting is an issue of conscience, if that is the case, then it should be done with a biblically informed conscience. Who else, but the church should do this. Public schools? MSM media? The church is best equipped in informing the consciences of its flock. Again, you don't have to spend a month on it. RC Sproul's sermon is the best example.

Ian, thanks for the kind words. I'm probably a fool for looking an "attaboy" in the mouth, but I do want to be clear:

I didn't do this to "nail [Piper] to the wall." I respect him, he's helped me, I expect to continue to admire and profit from him. But as I said straight-up at the time, he little pre-election "blat" bothered me at the time; and now this (too-late) thundering "Mr. Gorbachev, tear down this wall," just galls me a bit.

If, somewhere between the two, he'd said anything like "I wish I'd been clearer and more forceful on how unacceptable Obama was to Christian voters," I think it'd be all-good as far as I'm concerned. When I screw up, I don't have 23048752043785 people watching me, like Piper does.

But Piper does (God help him), and — in one little no-name guy's opinion — he did mess up.

I didn't think that was your motivation but man those videos. Let me put it this way you did shoot and with those videos you did score. More to the point on this one the big time preacher got it wrong and the no-name little guy got it right. And while those vids might make uncomfortable viewing for Piper - he has only got himself to blame. Everybody knew what Obama was about on abortion, homosexuality etc. If Piper was going to comment at all on the election then he needed to come out strong against Obama.

Thanks. I rarely listen to Piper due to time and other factors, but that's good to know. DJP: comprendevous. That makes sense.

But my arguments still stands...whether it was before or after the election, Dan, I think you're missing the point: this should have been said LOUDLY since the 1970s. The fact that a believer had to wait years to hear a good Biblical teaching about it (and not at my church at the time) is just wrong.

Kristine, I don't take a thing from the good Piper's done on the issue. But really, to me, that makes this recent failure more baffling. As many of us observed, it's as if his giddiness over Obama's skin-color smudged the moral absolute of the situation.

It's as if my wife was considering buying something and asked my opinion. I say "Gee, I don't know; there's this for it, this against it... but dang, wouldn't it be exciting to have it?"

She goes and buys it.

And then I thunder about what a terrible purchase it was, and what horrendous consequences are going to befall our family.

Huh? Hello? Where was I with all that thunderous clarity BEFORE the purchase?

Your argument is ad hominen. You're appealing to what Piper the man and what he has done in the past instead of the issue at hand. The context is not what he has done in the past 20 years. The video, titled, "Don't Waste Your Vote", the context was the November 4th election. The choice was clear and he muddied up the issue.

In the past, Piper said abortion was a disqualification for public office. For candidate Obama, it was now only a factor.