In 2011, the Sister Wives Blog started out as a place to talk about the TLC reality show "Sister Wives", Kody Brown and his wives Christine, Robyn, Meri and Janelle. Today we not only discuss the show, we discuss Polygamy in our society, and the public perceptions of the Mormon Religion. We discuss "Polygamy USA" and will be covering "My 5 Wives."
This blog is geared towards the adult reader, so please, no one under the age of 18 years. Thank you!

Tuesday, December 4, 2012

Discussion Page 3 for S05Ep03 "More Sister Wives"

Is Sister Wives: The Dargers coming to TLC?

By Mechele R. Dillard on 2012-12-03

The Brown family has been the face of polygamy for many viewers since Sister Wives launched on TLC, but, with the Browns being such a hit for the network, is there room for another polygamy reality series, perhaps featuring the Darger family?

What is most interesting is this little exchange in the comments section:

#1The Dargers New Show

Submitted by Anonymous on 2012-12-03.

The Dargers will have a new show on TLC. It is produced by Sister Wives production company Figure 8 productions. It is called "My 3 Wives" and will premiere on Dec 18th 2012.

#2"My 3 Wives"

Submitted by Mechele R. Dillard on 2012-12-03.

According to TLC, this information is incorrect, and there is no show currently set to premiere with the Dargers.

Submitted by Kat on 2012-12-04.

It says so on the Figure 8 production website. So TLC is playing you:

Submitted by Mechele R. Dillard on 2012-12-04.

Yes, I've seen the website. Regardless, TLC is indicating that there is no premiere set for a show with the Dargers at this time, and they are not promoting the show at this time. But, if their stance changes, I'll certainly relate that, as well, along with any show info they release.

Make sure you check out Mechele's and Kat's updated comments since the Darger's announcement on their Facebook page (on 12/4/12 late afternoon).

U P D A T E

In case you're looking for a condo to rent in Oceanside CA next summer, here's a link to the one used by Brown and Krew.

I just don't see Papa Joe (or his wives) putting up with the shenanigans required to make an interesting show. They seem too serious about their religion (have they ever called it a 'lifestyle'?) to trivialize their lives by having faux drama or comedy. They just don't seem gimmicky at all to me.

I can see documentaries or holiday specials in their future - like A Very Darger Christmas, or Darger Wedding: [place name of Darger offspring here] Gets Married.

LOL - while I could totally see the Brown$ going for that kind of special (and I'm sure that somewhere there are already plans to have a BIG SPECIAL for the first Brown kid that ties the knot) I just don't see the Dargers going for even the holiday special thing. I think we'll find that they'll be content with the documentary and an occasional appearance on talk shows - purely as an attempt to counter-balance the Brown public polygamy show.

CJ,I do agree with you. Unless the Dargers have decided on a show agenda that fills a burning want or a need, I just don't see them willing to become reality *stars* ala the Browns or worse, the HBB horror.

You are right...doing these types of shows does require, as you aptly said, "faux drama or comedy."This family just doesn't seem to be capable of that.

I'm thinking TLC is waiting to see how the public responds to the Dargers. Papa Joe doesn't share Kody's 'enthusiasm' for the fame - he seems more intellectual than Kody. Papa Joe's wives, however, are way more photogenic. So to me there's two major problems - the Dargers could be seen as boring and the yuck factor that Joe married sisters who happen to be twins.

You know, polygamous men do marry twins and sisters: off the top of my head I can name 2 prominent male polygamists: Vern LeBaron (brother of Ervil LeBaron) married sisters, and Christine's grandfather Rulon Allred(whose assassination was ordered by Ervil) married twins.

"So to me there's two major problems - the Dargers could be seen as boring and the yuck factor that Joe married sisters who happen to be twins."

That is exactly how I see their potential or non-potential for a successful run. They do not come off as immature or irresponsible enough to allow themselves to become a steady diet of filmed dysfunction....like Sister Wives quickly became.

Sad commentary, I know, for what people want to see, but the truth is a reality show either has to be *really* entertaining or a sideshow of freaky or screwy characters.

The Dargers' yuck factor *could be* a key component, but only IF they are willing to put it and keep it center stage. I would hope they have more dignity than that.

Am I the only one who thinks that TLC is using the Dargers as a bargaining chip with the Browns? Something tells me that there's no love lost between TLC and the Browns- this is clearly evident from the lack of advertising for this season and the Brown's evasive 'Go ask TLC' whenever they were asked about when the season was returning. Perhaps they were locked in some sort of contract/monetary dispute. Now TLC has the upper hand and can say "Well, we've got another Plyg family waiting in the wings to take your place if you don't tow the line."

Here's the Tom Green history as I recall it. Green married a woman named Beth Cook, then courted Cook's then-12-year-old daughter, named Linda Kunz. He married the latter when she was 13. Green also married Cook's sister, June Johnson, and Johnson's two daughters, Shirley, then 16, and LeeAnn, then 14. He married another set of sisters, Cari, 14 and Hannah Bjorkman, 15. I recall that Green at least attempted to marry a sister of Kunz, but I don't know if they actually married. Cook and Johnson, as polygamists say, eventually "left the group".

So, it would appear that Green married at least three sets of sisters including Johnson and Cook. There were additional wives who came and went, but to my knowledge there were no other sets of sisters. This isn't to say there weren't other creepy ties: for example, he married Julie McKinley, who was the 15-year-old daughter of his adopted son, Steven McKinley.

If they really do believe they will be together for "all eternity," as the Dargers strongly emphasized, wouldn't you want to be with your twin sister (rather than an unrelated woman) for all of eternity?

The women might believe it is worth the jealousy of sharing a husband in this earthly life in order to spend eternity on the same planet with their twin sister.

Well Khate Gosselin claims to be returning to "reality TV," but no one will give her air time for the show she plans to "produce" (starring herself). Wishful thinking on the part of a production company doesn't pay much. "Sister Wives" prodution company is probably as (not)well organized as their website.

I also notice on the page it's listed as on ongoing series, not with the documentaries which to me says that they are definitely planning making this into a series not just a one time thing. Wether or not TLC has picked it up is the question that needs to be answered since TLC is denying they will have their own show at this point.

Wishful thinking on F8F's part perhaps? Just because THEY want to make it a series, doesn't mean the Dargers or for that matter TLC is on board. I could see Joe Darger saying...well just this once we want to tell our story (again, IMO to counter the bad image portrayed by the Browns). Joe seems to be a savvy businessman and probably instead of just saying a flat NO to an actual series, left his option open. Of course I could totally see F8F taking that as a YES!

and remember until less than 2 weeks before, TLC did not give us an actual date of when this new season of SW would start - the original date of the 11th of Nov was pulled without a word. So i could see TLC waiting til the last minute to announce the show.

I disagree. I think that given the chance, the Dargers would do a reality show in a heartbeat. Not sure why everyone thinks they are so altruistic and above reality shows. They are not shy in promoting themselves.

Could F8F shoot an entire season of the Dargers and take it to another network if TLC doesn't want it? I could see A&E picking it up, or even History if there was a lot of history-related things in each episode.

I agree with November. I see the Dargers as being out there promoting themselves and trying to get their foot in the door of reality TV. However, they are probably trying to do it in a much more calculated, organized way than Kody is capable of. On Sunday night's episode I felt like the Dargers were trying very hard to show how well polygamy works for them. But my question is- do we really need two reality TV shows about polygamy?

I've read 13 books now about polygamy (would love to see a post about the different books out there and discuss them). However the Dargers book was the only one that I couldn't finish. I just found them too normal and boring. I'm not sure that they would make entertains reality TV. Maybe TLC is testing the waters to see how they are received or are ready to dump the Browns and their dysfunction and move on.

I agree with you, November. Why else would they have a family website and spend so much time and energy promoting themselves? I can't think of any other reason than to grab their share of the plyg pie. How many families do you know that have a website listing all of their children, their interests, and their "availability" (ie: single)? It is all sick, sick, sick and I carry the horrible guilt of endorsing this behavior everytime I watch the show.

I agree too with November. Just because the Dargers look good compared to the Brown trainwreck right now doesn't mean they deserve the automatic top of the pedestal for all of us to love and adore already. lol I guarantee their own brand of dysfunction and skeletons of plygdom will come out if they were to get a series. The Browns didn't start out the way they are now in Season 1 if anyone cares to remember.

I thought the Darger teens were giving a little insight (as much as they dared anyway) to give a glimpse of all's not plyggy peaches and cream behind their walls. Time will tell. Surely some of these kids will later be followed up with and it could be interesting what a few of them decide to tell once they're all completely out on their own. Both Browns and Darger offsprings.

OMG Poor Narcissistic Grody would NOT tolerate a version of Sister Wives: The Darger Family. Throughout the whole episode he was putting down everything Darger; the twin thing, their lifestyle, the living scenario. I forsee a Grody Tempertantrum in our future if this actually pans out...

It's not Kody's call to make. The title "Sister Wives" as a TV/Media show is owned by Discovery Networks, not the Browns. They can replace the Browns with any family they choose and use the same title. If Kody was smart he would have trademarked the name himself.

This is what we were talking about the other day -- not only are the Browns spending money like the Mayan calendar is accurate, they almost certainly have contracts that are poorly written in their favor. A smart business person would have kept the trademark name "Sister Wives" and collected a royalty on it, for instance. But I'm betting that once again, Kody saw a pile of cash, and took the cash.

It could be that the reality TV show for the Dargers is held up because Joe Darger sees himself as TOO good of a negotiator. This can be a problem as well. (When really, again, as someone who makes her living in entertainment, although in a small way, the best thing to do is to find a reputable agent to handle these aspects for you and pay the commission!!!)

I think he was passive aggressively was acting out in last weeks episode when he was using a serious monotone on the couch interviews when saying things about the Dargers. I think it probably hit him then that hey, this family could actually be taking our spot & bread & butter from TLC...IMO

GEML - I looked up the trademark a couple weeks or so ago and if memory serves Discovery didn't even apply for it until 2011. So Kody could've jumped on that - that said, perhaps Discovery had a "first use" right to the name. The trademark only covers TV/electronic media use, not the generic term.

Of course not -- And titles of anything can't be copyrighted/trademarked. But there were ways Kody could have better protected his brand, and he didn't.

And the thing is -- for all the Dargers been better organized and thought out and prepared -- well, it IS the Browns right now who have the televisions show, Jonathan Turley as the lawyer, etc. Sometimes it really is more about dumb luck than preparation and smarts.

I always thought Kody was a lame excuse for a man. He seems like such a child, an unorganized, irresponsible, self-obsessed, selfish child. But all of those qualities were magnified 100x when compared to Joe. And I think Kody felt it, he seemed very threatened by the Darger family as a whole (but especially by Joe. I would love to see more of the Dargers.

Kody should feel threatened by the Dargers, they made the Brown family look ridiculous and mis-managed, which they are. The Brown family has made plural marriage look ridiculous and shown none of the benefits, and a great deal of this is due to Kody and his selfishness.

agreed//kody is a con man and he is constantly leering at himself while on the couch. his eyes dart to his left every few seconds maybe wondering if anyone is believing what is coming out of his mouth...the shows days are numbered...

I think that Joe is by far more intellectual than Kody is. He has a degree in business and after having read many of his blog posts I think that he definitely outshines Kody in the area of speaking with purpose, poise and intellect. He appears to know a lot about many things and does his research. Whereas Kody often opens his mouth just to see what comes out.

Bellarina said, "Whereas Kody often opens his mouth just to see what comes out." That is so true!!! I busted out laughing when I read this. Some of the very first words he said were some of the dumbest quotes in reality tv history. "Love should be multiplied not divided." It's multiplied for Kody, but sparsely divided among the wives and kids.

What I have taken away from watching Sister Wives is that the Brown wives cannot stand each other. At all. Kody can't even act like he likes Christine or is romantically in love with Janelle. Maybe Janelle and Christine like each other a little, but I don't believe for one second that Meri and Robyn are besties. In my opinion the Browns have failed at showing polygamy in a good light. The wives are miserable, the kids are unhappy and don't get enough attention from their dad, and I don't see any benefits from this lifestyle except for Kody getting what he wants.At this point I would much rather watch a show on plural marriage about the Dargers. They all live in one house, they appear to like each other, and the dad has a grip on his role in the family and comes through. When the Brown family cannot even live in one house together without it being abuse, I don't see it as one big family, but Kody and his four families.I don't care if the Darger wives seem Stepford like, they are walking the walk and I am curious to see how they manage their family. At this point I would really like to see how a successful polygamous family functions and the Brown family is not delivering this.Side note, does anyone think that Robyn might have been pregnant but had a miscarriage? She seemed to have lost the weight after Sol, but in recent episodes has looked pregnant. Also, when she said on the latest episode that God willing she'd have more kids, she looked sad (although with Robyn that's not that unusual). I couldn't imagine if she was pregnant they could have kept it a secret, but maybe a miscarriage was too much for even the Brown family to want to make public? Just a though because Robyn really did look pregnant and is usually so thin.Thanks as always, Freya

I think we can all agree that the hatred between Meri and Janelle is not 'fake drama' for the cameras. Kody mishandled this from the get-go when the problems arose early on and he didn't take the leadership role in the family. Kody is content to and probably prefers to let the women take the emotional lead in this family.

I also think Robyn may have been pregnant and miscarried. The whole point of plural marriage is to have as many children as possible...I am sure they are actively trying for another baby.

I would honestly love a show with the Dargers! I had seen clips of them on Youtube even before Sister Wives started and I have always thought that they are the better example to show people of a modern plural family. I don't agree with their reasoning for practicing polygamy but I can certainly respect the way they practice it. I legitimately feel like the wives are close to one another and respect each other. And I feel like Joe appreciates and loves his wives and does listen to their needs and communicates with them in a way that Kody doesn't even understand how to do. I read the blog posts that Valerie and Joe wrote concerning her caner and you could tell how much they mean to each other and how much love they have for their family.

Also I'm curious, is your real name Freya, like the goddess? Or a nickname? I have a daughter named Freya and you never hear it.

Watching the Darger kids made me very anxious. I don't believe there is any such thing as a successful polygamous family, based on everything I've ever seen or read on the subject. Watching these kids did nothing to make me believe otherwise. Intimidation is not a tactic that any woman or child I've ever known would sign up for.

I'm not sure I think it is real drama between Meri and Janelle. I think Janelle is actually a really good actress, and I point out how well she acted about the fear and needing to move to Vegas as proof. I could totally see them having actually reconciled to a reasonable state, especially since they no longer live together (they have been together for 20 years now) and scripting out a fake drama this season for viewership. That it once came from a real place only makes it easier to act. (My son does a lot of theatre.)

Because let's be very blunt about it -- there isn't a whole lot going on this season, and both Janelle and Meri have reasons to keep the show going. They both need the money, even if Janelle wants to be frugal with it and Meri doesn't. It's still the only income the family has.

It would be terrible if that happened, but it would explain the need to cut the season short and take a almost 6 month hiatus to create a new story arch and film new footage. That would also explain the excessive use of flashbacks, and possibly why Kody's hair changes from one scene to the next.

While the Darger family was certainly more organized and "with it" than the Browns, there is just something creepy to me. I can't even say exactly what it is, but I got a weird vibe from them. I almost go along with the Stepford description. The Browns are (sadly) far more entertaining and their children's opinions are refreshing, especially considering the chaos theyare coming from.

I would shift my viewing loyalties from the Browns to the Dargers in a heartbeat :). I found the Darger family still had a measure of genuine sincerity in their lifestyle and I found myself curious about how they make things work. It was clear that the kids respected the parents, and that the parents respected and loved each other. They appeared to be self sacrificing rather than self-absorbed like the Brown adults. Watching the Browns lately has a cringe factor that is starting to border on not wanting to watch.

I also think the relationship of the Browns & TLC is on rocky ground. They dont come up as a feature on the main page of the TLC website, and TLC hasnt updated their online episodes for ages.

Based on her recent talk-show appearances and reports from folks who saw the fam during the craft show this past weekend - Robyn isn't pregnant.

remember - she's had 4 kids, she is definitely thinner than the other 3 but compared to the Darger wives she looks almost pudgy. so maybe in comparison, she looks bumpy. Note how she says she doesn't work out? if she doesn't exercise and she's eating the same food the rest of the fam is, she's probably getting a bit...you know

Someone noted that TLC owns the Sisterwives name (or at least for television rights) so I would imagine that TLC could do whatever they want. They could call it Sisterwives: Utah or a whole new name. The fact that neither TLC nor the Browns could articulate when the SW season was starting and all the cryptic tweets lead me to believe that either TLC is getting tired of the Browns or that Kody was getting too big for his britches and was trying to get more money for the show. (yes, Meri, I am referring to your hubby room and wetbar needs). TLC has very little to lose by putting a Darger version of the show on the air….if there is an audience for two shows on polygamy, they will have two shows on polygamy. Look at all the my big fat wedding/dress/cupcake shows there are. Reality shows are cheap to produce (compared to original programming) and there is usually no long term commitment. Even the Bates got their own show, although I think the ratings were low and they probably won’t be back, but they had their shot nevertheless. I would watch two shows on polygamy, in fact, it might even benefit both shows with people watching for comparative purposes and entertainment value. On a different note, for those comments that Joe ‘creeps them out’ …that makes me giggle because hasn’t Kody grossed us all out a little bit? Pick your poison as they say.

yes, Kody also disgusts me... but I don't sense any FEAR on the part of his kids or wife, just a sadness that Kody is clueless and they have hitched themselves to the wrong wagon.

As to Joe, he disturbs me. I think the kids are afraid of him. I think his wives were raised in a much more traditional polyg family where the father was the 'BOSS'. I don't think his wives are afraid of him as much as they just were raised to defer to him, which does make their household run smoother.

Neither family convinces me that sharing my husband and my daily life, financial, physical, etc with other wives is something I care to adhere to. I don't feel the need to be miserable in order to feel close to God... lots of religions to choose from that are more in line with my beliefs.

Carol - i was thinking that instead of focusing on one family, the show could have featured several different families right from the getgo, kind of like 16 and Pregnant you know?

Am I the ONLY one who doesn't believe that the Darger kids are afraid of Joe? I think they definitely RESPECT him, which is more than what the Brown kids appear to think about THEIR dad. I think when Kody even bothers to spend time especially with his older kids, he tries to be a "friend" rather than a parent. Again like Goldie Hawn said in Overboard "these kids have enough friends, they need a FATHER." If the Darger kids were REALLY that scared of their dad, they wouldn't have said the things they said for fear that he would see the video. To me when the stepson said Joe was "big, bald, and intimidating" he didn't say it with fear, he said it out of pride and a bit of humor thrown in. If Caleb (and the other two Darger kids who are now married from what I've heard) was scared of his dad, he wouldn't have been there.

I think Joe is a traditional dad, like my dad when I was growing up. he wasn't trying to be a friend, and a lot of times I thought he was mean...but I never doubted his love for me as his daughter. I think Joe loves his children and feels a responsibility to make sure they are raised right, just like my daddy did for me!

I agree mythoughtis.. Kody a mess but not terribly threatening, but terribly unorganized and clueless. Joe, organized but somewhat domineering and THE POWER behind the family. Neither family a model I would hold for my family.

I must say I did come away with a wee bit more respect for the Dargers in that they are more organized, cohesive and together compared to the Browns.

But yeah, not my cuppa tea. One wife, one husband enough for this household for sure.

Dakota Justice- I agree with you. I do not think his children are afraid of him. My father was not bald but could be big and intimidating, especially when he was putting his foot down. I think the step son meant it as a joke especially when you compare Joe to Kody, who is a total wimp and gets ran all over by his wives and kids. Kids should have a healthy fear of their parents finding them misbehaving, as if there were no consquence then the children would do whatever they wanted without fear of repercussions.

Joe makes them toe the line and follow order. What is wrong with that? Kids should respect their parents, and kids should have rules and most importantly they need structure. I imgaine with that many kids you have to have boundries and obediance or you would end up with chaos. If his kids were afraid they would not have spoken so candidly on the special's I have seen outside of this episode of SW.

Seriously I have 4 kids ages 2,3,9 & 15 and you better believe I have to set down rules and keep the schedule structured to maintain the calm around here. I have more calenders and list then most people I know. I have too in order to make sure everyone is where they need to be and to make sure everything that needs to be done gets done. I can't imagine having to manage 20+ kids. I run my house scheduled and structured because it keeps everyone on the same page and everyone knows what to expect and what we (my husband and I) expect of them.

We have rules and if you break a rule there is a solid consequence. If I tell any one of my kids to do something I expect them to do it, with little fuss. I teach them what I consider acceptable and unacceptable. I expect manners and respect when dealing with adults. If that is controlling and being a "bully" well then I guess I'm in the same boat as Joe.

I don't think the Darger kids are scared of their father, and I think the family is just very well organised, out of necessity. I agree with what DakotaJustice and Victoria said earlier.

I also don't agree with the 'Stepford' description of the Darger wives. Does anyone else think that maybe they are just not very forward/overbearing people, naturally, and that it's not a case of Joe demanding they behave that way, but rather that the 3 of them are all related to each other, and share similar character traits? Although Alina is a (2nd, I think?) cousin, Valerie and Vickie are twins, so I don't think that that's beyond the realms of possibility. They arranged from the outset to run their family with structure and a mission statement, and unlike the Browns, they appear to FACE problems head-on as opposed to hiding from them and letting them fester. I say this with particular regard to the jealousy issue. One of the Darger wives stated that it's just not practical or realistic to expect to only be able to kiss or show affection toward their husband on "their" night. They acknowledge that jealousy is there, but they also seem to really believe in the idea that, if Joe is showing affection to another wife, it doesn't take from his affection for them, and in fact is encouraging because it shows he cares about all his wives. One of the sisters said that it gave her comfort knowing that Joe could give her twin who left an unhappy previous marriage as safe and happy a life as she herself had with him. I don't think a sister, particularly a TWIN sister, would wish a life of unhappiness on to her twin.

The Darger wives saying that their husband showing love to and caring for their sister wives only reassured them that he was a good husband is not a new concept; the Brown wives said that at the beginning too. But I have to be honest, I never understood it with the Browns, because they don't walk the walk. Kody cannot be openly affectionate with his wives because everyone is so hyper-sensitive (I don't say this to criticise; I would be the same, but the difference is that these women CHOSE to be in a polygamous relationship, and CHOSE the reality of sharing a husband). I think that this is one thing that has definitely contributed to the downfall of his relationships with Christine and Janelle. It must be very difficult if, say, you fight with your husband on "your" night, and then don't see him/cannot touch him for 3 days after that. By the time it came around to their night again, and this cycle is repeated, I can see how they might simply get used to an unaffectionate relationship, particularly poor Janelle, who had to put up with Meri fawning all over Kody in their younger years.

My mother ran things in such a fashion. I was always, always anxious, and dreaded walking into my house after school every day. Couldn't wait to get away. I had guidelines when I had children of my own, but was a lot more flexible than my parents ever were. My children, in fact, have achieved a lot more than I did, not having to always be afraid of missing some arbitrary mark. They knew success was expected, and there were consequences for serious infractions (like selling my son's car after a 115 MPH speeding ticket) but having every hour structured would have made me as miserable as it would have them. My parents were wonderful grandparents, but my children have thanked me many times for not modeling that parenting style.

The Darger stepson did not look like he was joking when talking about Joe, IMO. It's not as if it's either Joe's method or Krody's, thank God.

Victoria - my own daddy was the same way. He was strict to all 4 of us. We had lots of chores and when we misbehaved oh did we ever catch it! Mom too. However I can't think of a single time I was punished where it wasn't deserved (and by punishment I mean spankings - usually with the belt or a paddle).

When I go shopping or to restaurants, I am always amazed at how badly children are allowed to behave nowadays - making demands on their parents, running around...if we had acted like that my parents would not have tolerated it for a moment!

My first husband had a daughter (8 years old) from a previous marriage. When I first met him his place was a disaster - dirty laundry piled high, dishes literally to the ceiling, his daughter lived with him full time in this squalor - I asked him why was her room so messy and he said "I don't want to ruin her childhood by making her do chores..." Nor did he punish her in any way when she misbehaved. Fortunately she was a good kid for the most part. But omg.

Although my parents were strict and we had to abide by their rules, my sisters and I never doubted their love for a second and they always made sure we had what we needed without being spoiled.

I am VERY blessed to still have both my parents on earth - daddy is 80 and mom is 71 - enjoying their retirement in the country.

Joe Darger might be intimidating, but I believe that his family comes first for him and he will do what he needs to protect them. Kody? Not so much.

Dakota- Don't get me wrong, my father and my mother were loving parents. They also made sure we always had what we needed even if we didn't always get what we wanted. However; I like you cannot think of a single time I was punished (I also got the paddle or the belt and grounding/extra chores) where I didn't deserve it. I had chores and it did not kill me. I am in my 30's and I was amazed back in my 20's when most of my friends didn't have a clue as to how to clean their homes. Their parents never made them do chores so doing laundry was foreign to them.

I will tell you this, my parents became lax with my youngest brother. The baby of the family if you will. By then they had loosened the reigns and let him get away with a lot more than I ever had. Not to mention he was babied. He is now almost 30 and has yet to leave their basement. He has worked maybed a total of one year since he graduated. I firmly believe this is because he didn't have the same set of boundries and had everything handed to him. My parents wonder why he didn't turn out like the rest of us (responsible adults)

So yes I enforce the rules in my house (no I do not personally use a belt or paddle) and I do make my kids do chores. Everyone lives here and everyone helps out. Even the toddlers help clean their rooms and pick up the living room. My toddlers take care of their own dishes (put them in the sink) I believe it is the parents job to train the child how to act and show them how to do everyday things. We lived a structured life but it is not so scheduled there is never free time because yes kids need time to free play. However; I feel too much free time and no boundries are a recipe for disaster.

I do think there is middle ground (even in large families) between the Darger style and the Brown free for all. I don't think the Darger children are scared of their father, but I don't think they are as fond of him as the Brown kids are. And as frustrated as they get, they do NOT ever seem to put down Kody in public on the show, ever, and I think the producers would LOVE to get that on film, so I'm thinking it doesn't happen. Even last week, both Logan and Madison (who were the only two who spoke during the "kids only" milkshakes, were very careful not to say something that would put Kody down. Now we know THEY aren't saying diplomatic things out of fear, because we've heard them speak their minds on all kinds of other things. I think they are genuinely fond of their dad.

The Darger children? I haven't watched them enough to know, but their comments had an edge to them. Not fearful, but respectful, but with an edge. That could just be a moment in time caught on film, though, not a real expression of feeling.

I think what one needs to keep in mind is that the Browns are accustomed to being followed around by camerapeople - the Dargers, not so much...so they might be a bit more guarded and self-conscious. IMO.

My children had plenty of free time, and I always told them their "job" was making good grades,which they did. They have degrees, good jobs, and happy relationships. They own homes they manage wonderfully. Even when they were very young, we could take them to any restaurant or function without ever having behavior problems. Likewise, my best friend never, ever had a chore. She now manages a successful business, has a beautiful home, and is a kind, wonderful person.

Just because some people don't live a regimented life does not necessarily mean "a recipe for disaster". Perhaps different children react differently to different parenting styles. What works for some may not work for others. Look at Maddie and Mykelti, for example. One is obviously not at all happy with how things are. The other wants to follow the same path as her family.

i wonder what the story lines would be for a darger show. they were shown to have it all together under one roof with a dad who said he sees his kids everyday in one house in one kitchen and meri is concerned about a wet bar in a huge house that will be emptier when mariah leaves..what a contrast. where is all the money coming from for these houses. my guess is we will never see them. tlc brought the dargers in to show a contrast between 2 plural families with different outlooks on life. kody mentioned all are independent while joe had a vision and mission statement for his life and family..not so dumb..slip of tongue for kody when he mentioned welfare fraud. i dont feel sorry for any brown other than the kids and hope they leave as they turn 18. janelle seems the most intelligent and sweet. she was able to quickly have babies that meri could not. i think logan stayed in town for two reasons..one he may not have the confidence to be on his own and two he will still get money if he appears on the tlc show. the most interesting thought to me is to be a fly on the wall to see a total meltdown of these browns once the show is over.. they have no public future...hopefully the kids will be alright

Logan stated himself (at the UNLV Q&A) he chose UNLV primarily because it was more affordable. Like his mom, he's very practical minded. But the fact that chose to live in the dorm as opposed to staying at the house speaks VOLUMES...I'm sure that Janelle encouraged him to take that step towards independence. I think deep down, she might know that she made a mistake choosing this lifestyle (at least with Kody) and is trying to get her kids out of it. Of course, she's too passive-aggressive to say anything right out loud. The look Janelle gives Joe and his wife as he is kissing her on the beach in front of everyone...speaks volumes to me. I think that in that moment, she felt her heart become hollow...maybe wistful.

I'd like to say that I thought it very odd of some of the "snarky" remarks that the Browns would say....as if The Dargers were not going to be watching the show. My jaw dropped when Jenelle repeated what Joe D. said regarding "if you tell me 8 am, then don't leave at 10 am" in a smart ass tone of voice...Holy Cow! I just kept saying to my daughter...."What are they thinking!" "They are going to see this!"

True, Janelle did sound off but you know I respect her for it. Usually one poo poo's around company but good for her for calling what she saw was out of line. Are they going on a holiday or freaking Boot Camp?!

Kody hasn't stepped up and taken charge in over 20 years. Why on Earth would he start now? He rather stay the "good guy" and let the wives tear each other apart. I honestly think that is a big factor in the Darger's success as a family. Joe acts as the head of the family and makes the decisions. I'm sure he takes everyone's thoughts/feelings into account and then makes the choice he feels works best but in the end it's all on him.

I know everyone says it is controlling for Joe to take the leadership role but when you are dealing with multiple people, with multiple opinions and needs somebody has to step up and take the reigns. Otherwise you get big ole mess we see with the Brown family where nobody knows what is going on half the time and people are mad at each other (notice how the wives are seldom mad at Kody but are mad at each other) I think by taking the lead Joe puts himself in the position to take any of the flack because he ultimately decided. Wife #1 cannot soley blame wife #2 for the decision. Probably helps keep the peace.

I just wonder why Janelle isn't more vocal about her opinions & needs to her own family(Kody & SW)?? Just saying she didn't have a problem voicing her opinion about Joe & she knew that it would be seen by them.

Sundays episode was the first episode my husband has watched since the first season. My husband usually plays poker with his brothers while my sister wife and I crack open a bottle of wine and watch Sister Wives! My husband actually asked us when Kody had regressed into a teenager again. It's very true that Kody avoids at all costs being the Bad Guy. He avoids confrontation and would rather let his wives argue or just sit there passive agressively glaring at each other than be a man and deal with the consequences of his lifestyle. If you are going to have 2 or 3 or even 4 wives you need to know when to leave them be to work it out or when to step in and help. Kody fails to understand this and that's why Meri abused Janelle for so long. Janelle didn't stand up for herself and Kody never stood up for her either. I get the impression that Joe knows when to step in and say something or do something productive when a problem arises. It's not controlling; it's necessary in a family that large for one person, man or woman, to take charge in certain situations. The Darger wives seem just fine with the arangement and it seems to be working well for everyone in the family.

The wicked part of me would kind of like to see Kody and Joe duke it out. especially during the couch scene that was shown concurrently with the adult-only dinner where the Darger wives were suggesting/recommending that the wives share a kitchen and then they flash to Kody with his beady-eyed stare saying to the camera something along the lines of "don't push me into doing what I don't want to do" and so on. Well first off Kody, they weren't PUSHING you, they were SUGGESTING it, and secondly, you are once again showing your utter wussiness by not saying that DIRECTLY to them, proving that you are just as passive-aggressive as your wives.

and every time i see that part where Darger Wife #1 (sorry I still don't have their names memorized! I'll get there!) talked about being KIND OF afraid because she heard stories when she was a little kid about her GRANDFATHER or someone spending some time in jail at one point - and then Kody gets all militant like that happened recently? making mountains out of old molehills. I bet that happened in the 1950's. please gimme a break. And she even acknowledged that when a child dies at home, the authorities will do an investigation no matter if they're plyg or what. That's all she needed to say for Kody to act like he was Mr. Polygamist Of the Year. yikes.

...talked about being KIND OF afraid because she heard stories when she was a little kid about her GRANDFATHER or someone spending some time in jail at one point - and then Kody gets all militant like that happened recently?

That was Alina Darger. And you bring up an excellent point - her grandfather AND Christine's grandfather were both arrested at the same time, in the early 1950's (I think) for polygamy (The Short Creek Raid by Gov. Pyle of AZ). Even today it's debated the reason why AZ and UT will not arrest anyone for just being a polygamist anymore was because of the public backlash from the Short Creek raid. Kody's trying to validate his "escape" to Las Vegas but we all know that he was not going to be arrested and he left UT because he wanted to live in Las Vegas. Listening to him talk about picking up a 15000 sq ft mansion for pennies on the dollar confirms what he was thinking at the time...and he DIDN'T EVEN HAVE A DOLLAR to spare when they first got to Vegas so how was he going to afford that mansion? The man literally has rocks for brains. If Papa Joe is a mushroom, Kody is definitely pond scum.

Let's repeat this -- NO ONE HAS BEEN ARRESTED FOR POLYGAMY ONLY SINCE 1972!!!!!!!! NO ONE!!!!!!

Now, to show how meaningful that is, take the age you are now, and subtract 40 years from that. That's how old you were when someone was arrested for polygamy.

Don't commit welfare fraud, don't marry off children, and don't abuse your spouse or children and no one is going to be in trouble.

(Willing to bed the reason the Alina Darger was asked about her birth was because genetic anomalies run disproportionately in polygamous families because of incestuous relationships. The state doesn't know that she isn't in one. Asking if her doctor was also a polygamist was a way of asking did the baby have a birth certificate, was it properly registered, etc etc. Notice how once she had proper verification, the state of Utah did ABSOLUTELY NOTHING!)

I've been interested to read everyones comments on the Dargers and how many people find the fact the wives are related to have an 'ick' factor. Earlier CJ mentioned other cases where men had 'married' sisters and I wanted to add this one.

In the 1970s and 1980s, well known Australia actor Jack Thompson lived with two sisters in a polygamous type relationship. It was quite well known here in Australia and no one really made much of an issue of it, although it was talked about. It certainly didn't hurt his career at all. The relationship lasted about 15 years and he eventually settled with just one of the sisters who had given birth to his child if I recall correctly.

you know something? I don't have an issue with it. If it was his OWN sister, or half sister or whatever...yah but being sisters, and twins with that close relationship...I know that Christine said she couldn't be in a plyg marriage with HER sister but i'm betting they weren't that close.

I'm watching the ep again, from my DVR. The first part when the Dargers are introduced. I am SO not getting a Stepford vibe. I'm seeing women who grew up in polygamy, who agreed to be in the relationship, and seem to be genuinely happy. And Joe seems to be pretty intelligent, methodical...but also with a definite sense of humor and also a big sense of responsibility towards his family, which is more than you could say for Kody.

I could never do polygamy myself, but the Dargers are growing on me with each repeat viewing.

PJ's got organizational skills. kudos to him. Still not impressed with Darger-style religious polygamy any more than I am with Brown's plyghood. Dargers are still smugly breaking the law and are getting away with it in Utah and teaching their kids it's ok if you don't agree with the law - just break it and do what you want anyway instead of working to get the law changed first. Of course, Utah is at fault for turning their heads and looking the other way regarding the thousands of plygs there - FLDS being the worst of the worst.

I would imagine Joe Darger's own jealousy factor would be through the roof tho if he were forced to practice religious polygamy and watch his brother husbands pawing over his one wife. Their polygyny is so one-sided it's truly revolting. I think it's interesting that it appears the majority of kids growing up in these outwardly "wonderfully happy" and "God's way" plyg homes seem to opt out when they grow up - provided they're given a real choice unlike Warren Jeffs' FLDS clan.

It doesn't matter to me how many examples there are of men who've married sisters, I still find it repulsive. But that's just me. I wasn't raised in a plural family and just started learning about it recently. I am a Christian so I believe the Bible. I know there are many examples of polygamy and there are probably some sisters in there somewhere. I still think that in modern times, polygamy is unnecessary; however, if a family believes this is their calling, who am I to argue? Joe controls his family, but I honestly don't see it as abusive. I would say it's stern like some posters have said their fathers were. I would liken him in some ways to the dad on the 70s sitcom "Good Times." James Evans loved his kids dearly, but he was tough. His family respected him and there was no disrespect. They would laugh and joke together, but at the end of the day, everyone knew that James was the head of his family. I think that's how it is with the Dargers.

Have to say that I respect both families right to live as they choose. Even if I totally disagree with it.

Anon 6:09 - the key term I note you used is "forced". NONE of the adults in this instance are being "forced" into this lifestyle. And I think Utah is trying to do the right thing - they just don't have the funds or the manpower to go after EVERY SINGLE POLYGAMIST family or hunt down people suspected of practicing - so they limit their arrests to adults who are committing real felonies such as underage marriage, fraud etc. Which is the right thing to do IMO - I could just see instances happening when a person has a grudge against someone else and contacting the authorities to have someone else investigated, for the sole reason of being polygamous, even if they are otherwise law-abiding citizens.

Again I equate that towards marajuana use - at least here in California, if you don't have a prescription, it's a misdemeanor to use it, but unless a person is committing another felony, law enforcement could really care less, and will at MOST have you put it out or confiscate it. I've stood in line outside concert venues where there are many pot smokers AND police, and they DON'T CARE as long as a disturbance isn't being created. Because they are looking for the troublemakers...same thing with polygamy IMO.

Just posted on Facebook by the Dargers....The Darger FamilyIt is official, TLC will air "My Three Wives" a 1 hr special we filmed at the same time we filmed the guest appearance on Sisterwives on Tuesday, December 18th, 10PM ET.

--------- fwd from lovetimesthree.com ----------When the teens from both families went to the malt shop to chat there were No Parents Allowed. Even when they came back, “mum” was the word. We were not privy to their conversation.

It was surprising even funny to hear the comments tonight after watching footage on Sisterwives.

--------- end fwd ------------

I imagine much Darger response was triggered by the Brown family comments about dating, possible marriage, and the Brown daughters supposed gazes of admiration.

And how did the Brown teens react to their parents comments on their personal lives. (Though I put little trust in Robyns presentation of events.)

<A HREF="http://lovetimesthree.com><i><b> http://lovetimesthree.com </i></b></A> is the Dargers Web Site

I only saw one "gaze of admiration" - Maddie towards Caleb. Of course Caleb is one of the kids opting out of polygamy as is Maddie, and I think just because she might like him, doesn't automatically mean there's a relationship between them.

IMO if there was a Darger/Brown marriage, it would definitely be "movin' on up" for the Brown kids, but I don't think Joe or his wives would be thrilled to have Kody as an in-law or Meri for that matter...

Dakota -- I saw that too. Actually, what I saw was Aspyn giving the flirtatious smiles, until Caleb said polygamy wasn't for him, and Maddie very guarded, and then Maddie giving the flirtatious smile and Aspyn guarded! (I live with a teenager, so I'm usually watching for flirtatious smiles!

- Joe came across as very controlling and dominant. I don't like him at all.- Yes, the Darger family is much more responsible and organised than the Browns.- The utter chaos the Brown family runs on seemed so comical when contrasted with the military precision the Darger family implements. - It's surprising that in the Brown's marriage they are all so hopelessly irresponsible and disorganised. What are the odds of that?!- The Darger wives are like Stepford wives and I don't think they would make good tv.- Meri cried AGAIN in this episode. I think that's 3 out of 3 so far this season. - Poor Jenelle. You could see her seething when Meri talked about the kitchen abuse.- Still so sad that Jenelle, who is educated and can support herself, chose this life. - This tweet from actor Andrew Rannells cracked me up.

Andrew Rannells ‏@AndrewRannells Also, #SisterWives .... I love a fight over a craft room and a wet bar. I mean... we've all been there...

The Dargers seem like mentally stable people who are following their chosen religion and work hard to be a functioning family. The Brown adults aren't stable, treat each other like garbage and will sell their souls for a wet bar or a set of watch bands.I seriously doubt we'll ever see the Dargers and Browns on vacation again! If my brain hurts just watching the Browns cry and whine and bully eachother, can you imagine the Dargers after being trapped with them on vacation? Yikes!!!

I thought Joe Darger's joke about, "keeping up with the Jones'/keeping up with the Darger's" while the Browns were packing for the vacation just kind of summed up that whole episode. All of Kody and Krew's comments/explanations throughout the show seemed like they were trying to make themselves look better than the Dargers (and they totally failed).

Always find it fascinating reading all the comments here...and although just about all of us on here have issues with Kody and Kodettes, it's very interesting to me that the posters on here seem to be split between seeing Papa Joe in varying degrees of creepiness vs. seeing him in a positive light by taking control of his family....TLC may be onto something with the Dargers, some like him (and his family) and others do not, but I bet many will watch if there is a Darger series...

Cpa Carol - I said Joe Darger creeps me out a few times because of the yuckyness but I also said that about Kody when the show first started. I hadn't yet discovered this blog though to express my feelings lol. I watch Sister Wives because it's a train wreck and fascinating at the same time, like an exercise in psychology for me. I just can't see why because he is organized and seems to garner more respect, that's a reason to like him. He just gives off a bad vibe to me personally. I think Kody is abusive to a couple of his wives yet tries to portray the nice guy, "who me?" attitude, unsuccessfully. Joe Darger really seems like behind doors he is a super control freak. Maybe it's just something about polygamist men. This episode creeped me out more than the others, but I'm sure I would have had a lot to write when Sister Wives first started. I said Kody was way creepy then.

which reminds me of a thought i've had several times in the past. I know we've thought it would be great if Maddie would write a tell-all book but i think I would LOVE to read one written by some of these camera peeps! ;'0

wow! not a very good "sell job" by his parents/religion on the joyous beauty of polygamy if that's true. 19 plyg "brothers and sisters" and ONLY ONE who went for the golden celestial ticket to exaltation?? hmmm . . .

yes, they're allowing their children to make their own life decision re:polygamy BUT it's very telling that the VAST MAJORITY want nothing to do with polygamy and inflicting that kind of pain and chaos on their own marriages nor onto their own kids. ;') YAY for those choosing NOT to perpetuate the crazy onto another generation!

I have a couple of questions. I hope this wasn't already addressed.1.) Does anyone know the ratings for Sunday's show?2.) I read that Kody was not on his children's birth certificates. Is that true with Christine's baby girl (Truly)sp and Robyn 's new baby? I know the family probably received financial assistance prior to the show airing, but now that they are making money at least tempoarily. I certainly can't see Meri not putting Kody on Mariah's birth certificate. 3.) If the Darger family gets there own show after their one hour special..I think it is only fair that find a new family with a woman and three husbands are shown. (I'm sure there is one out there.) Rightly so it should be called Brother Husbands.

Count me in as someone who would love to see a Darger polygamy show. I'd prefer the show was more a documentary than "reality" because I don't like the drama that the reality genre demands; I'm really just interested in how things work in their family.

I did find Joe's eyes kind of weird at the very beginning but I warmed up to him afterwards. I'm so tired of the Brown drama and I wouldn't be surprised if TLC was sick and tired of them as well. I imagine the family is as disorganized and scattered with TLC as they are on the show which would make their relationship with TLC rather strained. I know I'd go nuts if I had to deal with Kody on a regular basis.

I agree with the poster from the previous page who suggested that Hunter is an introvert and that living with his loud, chaotic, disorganized family would be a nightmare for him. I'm an introvert myself and spending time with the Brown family would be a special kind of hell for me.

I took a look at the 22 bedroom condo. Wow, is it ever gorgeous!!!! Almost every room has its own ensuite which to me is the height of luxury (especially since there are 22 bedrooms). Had Kody bothered to check things out in advance he would have seen that this property has a ton of room for all of them and he could have even figured out parking. Of course organization would go against Kody's surfer-dude, immature, lazy, selfish attitude.

Now that the true dynamic between Meri and Janelle is forever out in the open, both from the revelations in the book and certainly from the recent "Sorry that you think I abused you (beginning 18 years ago)" and "I deserve whatever house I want" carping from Meri and the consistently stoic, suffering stance of Janelle really makes a mockery of that oh, so saccharin opening montage of each show where they are all lined up, proclaiming their joy and bliss.

Seriously hasn't any one of them realized how ridiculous that opening bit is now?What a silly and hollow farce it is....and apparently was !

Along with the now blatant mutual dislike between Meri and Janelle, there is obvious depression and anxiety in Christine's almost childish need for validation and Robyn's passive-aggressiveness in trying to find her role in the group beyond being the newest bedmate and incubator.

Watching that bit roll on at the beginning of each episode now brings an automatic reflex snark of ....* "Yeah, right!!" *

Seeing and hearing Kody's pompous, righteous claim about "love should be multiplied" now plays so empty...so delusional.

ITA....the opening sequence is just wrong now that we all know the truth. Maybe just show each wife without their lines and then Kody at the end. I am with you, now when I hear Janelle's line "I think we have something really great, I wouldn't change a thing" (or whatever she says), I cringe.

Every marriage has its ups and downs, so I am very surprised that everyones is so judgemental of the Browns. Imagine those downs being magnified by four times. Yes Kody is a child but in his family his wives run the show and allow him to behave this way. Meri is just as spoiled as her husband and thinks that she is number one so she should have everything she wants. Christine used to be the cute young wife and cant stand that Robin had taken her place. Robin plays the poor, sweet, naive rube and Janelle just seems to be beat down. It seems like Everything fell apart for the Browns when the fourth wife came on board.

Sorry but I find Joe Darger to be overbearing and controlling. Yes his family is more organized but at least the Brown children and wives can say what they feel and act like normal disfunctional pople just trying go get through the day. The Dargers are not just doing this as an altruistic act, they are definitely in it for something, and I bet if they get a show the cracks will eventually show up just like it did for the Browns. If you look to closely at something for along enough time you will see the faults. The real problem I have with the Browns is who is supporting all these people besides TLC, they definitely look like they havent been going without.

I am sure if the Dargers do have a yen for fame and fortune via their own Plyg expose' reality show, there will be cracks appearing eventually. It's inevitable. Unless of course they strictly adhere to sanitized, planned scripts that only show the veneer. And that would get old and boring (and telling) very quickly. Fans will be quick to spot BS....especially if they are seasoned SW viewers. lol

They also need to be prepared for the naysayers. As the saying goes, "you can't please all of the people all of the time..."

No doubt, Joe Darger will push buttons for any woman who has had an overbearing spouse, SO or father. And the wives may trigger a lot of chatter about adult females being overly dependent and "obedient" to their lord and master.

Maybe the Dargers are really up for being the new game in town ??!!Maybe they are ready and able to take the heat along with the kudos.Time will tell....!!

I loved the Bates and was hoping they'd keep the show going. On their family web site, Kelly Bates (the mom) said their show did not get renewed. It's clearly because they are too normal, sweet and boring to the majority of Americans. Plus, we've already seen practically everything there is to show in a fundamentalist Christian family with a zillion kids. The Duggars have already shown it all. What I liked about the Bates is they were not PR savvy so they seemed to give honest responses and reactions. Much as I like the Duggars, they are now a well-oiled PR machine. I don't think their reality is as real ad it once was. That's what happened to the Browns and will probably happen to the Dargers. It takes quite a family to remain intact after a reality series.

so true about Dargers initially looking good next to the Browns. but the bar's been set pretty low to begin with, so . . . Anyway, i agree w/the others who have said the drama/dirt will come out about the Dargers too if they get their own show. So far, we don't know that much about them really. I remember when everyone was all rooting for Meri in Season One!! HAH!

One thing i picked up on the Dargers was that even tho he married two women at the same time, there's STILL a first wife hierarchy in place. Apparently Aleena gets the first wife trophy title simply cause she slept with Joe the first night following the wedding ceremony and her sister wife got him the second night! It just strikes me odd that Aleena still has to refer to herself as First Wife and i would love to ask the real importance of that under their "married at the same time" circumstances. How much weight does that really carry? Or is it just the fact that she's the only one legally married to him? How did they even determine which one was to be first wife in this situation since he courted them and proposed to them at the same time as well. *scratching my head*

This has been asked before but I'll ask it...Why don't polygamist men divorce their first wife after a few years in order to marry their second, then divorce the second after a few years to marry their third? Isn't the spiritual wedding, the sealing of the wife to the man for eternity more important than a legal document that only counts for this lifetime and not eternity? Why go through the legal ceremony? Why not just have a spiritual sealing and make sure it's stated in the husband's will what each wife will receive if he dies first.

1. The first wife doesn't want to give up legal status. She gets all the state/federal benefits and protections, acccess to employer provided spousal benefits. Her kids have Dad's name on the birth certificate and are considered legal heirs. She also may want the subsequent wives to NOT have any of that stuff.(Meri and Janelle for example)

2. They may feel that lots of marriage/divorces may call attention to themselves, publicizing their polyg status. You know, the 'they'll separate us/put hubby in jail' cry,

My uneducated guess would be that the men do not divorce the first wife, nor make marry and then divorce subsequent wives who come after the first wife, in order to avoid having to pay court-ordered child and/or spousal support. It's a matter of economics.

Also by not marrying any wives after the first, it keeps the door open for potential "bleeding of the beast" as the single mothers and their broods increase.

It makes sense to me that he could. The first wife title seems to be a very big deal. I bet Meri would have a come apart if Kody suggested it. Also, Joe Darger married two women on the same day, but still there was a first and second wife. Seems to me, they should be considered equals.

Legally, marriage always has been about distribution of property. A person who is not married to the father/mother of their child sets up a huge headache when that persons estate goes to probate because it will have to go through a third party unless you do some heavy duty paperwork which the courts are not legally obligated to honor the way they must a marriage and legal children. So it still makes sense to marry if you plan to own anything (although some polygamous communities discourage individual ownership.)

And even amicable divorce with children involved takes time and can be expensive. To do it simply to prove a point probably doesn't make a lot of sense, though I bet a lot of second, third, fourth wives, etc., would be willing to pay the price!!

Did you ever see the film "The Last Emperor" about Pu Yi, the last emperor of China who was crowned at the age of 3 and lived for years sequestered in the Forbidden City? When he got married, he was married to two girls - one official wife and one secondary consort - and the girls picked who was going to be the actual official wife.

Hi Cynical Jinx: There actually are some polygamous families that do what you're suggesting. I recall that the pro-polygamy website, 3Coins, said it's a good idea for several reasons, among them that it "equalizes" the wives because they've all been married to him, and it enables the new wife to easily change her last name to his.

I have friends who live polygamy and the husband is not legally married to either of his wives. Both wives had "weddings", a ceremony in front of family and friends and they both hold themselves out to the public as being married. But they live in a state that does not recognize common law marraige so it's not really an issue. He is named as he father on all his kids birth certificates and all three adults have wills to say who gets what with property and other posessions. They feel it's just easier legally because neither "wife" is legally married and so they aren't committing adultery, which is still a law on the books in many states.

But his wives are legally in a much more precarious position than if he were married. A will can be overturned, and does not legally actually have to be upheld. Because he is listed as the father on the children's birth certificates, they will hold more power in probate than the wives will, if they would choose to fight the estate. There are also social security benefits (for both wives and children), disability benefits, pension benefits, 401K benefits, tax benefits, that go directly to legal wives/husband during their lifetimes.

Granted, this rarely happens, and most people, honestly, don't own enough to be worth a court fight. But this is why marriage isn't only about a "piece of paper." It's about the legal power to distribute property. The spouse has tremendous power legally upon the other's death. I understand why gays want to marry and why polygamists do, but while I think the system is set up to handle on (homosexuals are still transferring one set of property to one set to one person, just of the same gender) there is just no way the system is set up to handle transfer of property (let along the family court) of polygamy.

I just started reading the Darger book. According to the book. Age has alot to do with it. Joe and Alina were 20 and the twin (forgot which one) was 19. Because Alina was older she got to be first wife and the twin was the witness and Joe and Alina's civil ceremony.

I was bothered when Joe Darger was recounting his "falling in love first kiss moment" in front of the other 2 wives. Men get jealous, too. Why does "God" only require women to recognize their jealousy and just "learn to get over it." Imagine Joe Darger sitting there with 2 other men and listening to his single wife talk about falling in love with one of his brother husbands. yeah, right...

PJ is a creep. The women have been brainwashed. The children don't respect PJ, they fear him. The children should be natural cousins and second cousins, not half siblings and step brothers and step sisters, it is not normal and the children are fully aware of this. They did not ask for this. The women put more thought into how they all are going to get along and live together but did not think about what this was going to do to their children before they even had children. That is being selfish on their part. TLC is aware of this sickness and will exploit the perversion of a man marrying twins for ratings. After all it is every mans fantasy to bed with two woman and here PJ gets to marry TWINS AND THE TWINS COUSIN.

Exactly Lily! I can only imagine the ego this man has. And I know the Browns have their problems, but for some reason I didn't like the smug "We're better than you" attitude from JD and his wives. Polygamy has shown me that the men all seem to have huge egos, are a bit controlling, the wives are brainwashed, and the children suffer to varying degrees.

Why do they have a picture of the Salt Lake LDS Temple in their house? Do they believe in temple marriage even if they aren't LDS members? Also, I found it kind of funny when Kody mentioned "welfare abuse" all the wives kind of looked at him like "don't mention that!"

yes! Janelle's eyes got big when he said that. Like always he forgot before he opened his mouth. I'm sure they stop doing that a while back but they sure did get assistance in order to feed all those kids.

I'm curious... when they go somewhere, like the house in Oceanside... I wonder where Cody sleeps. If they stay four nights does he sleep with a different wife each night? Or maybe he just sleeps on the sofa? lol

the Darger women used to have the fundie hair, zero makeup and overly modest dress. (look at their wedding dresses which clearly looked like they were to cover the longer sleeved garments like the browns wear.) now they're calling themselves ORTHODOX MORMONS and yet they have modern hairstyles, wear make-up and show cleavage and bras through see-through blouses. i would also like to question them about that curious change. wonder if it was just to blend in more w/the mainstream mormon utah population.

Did you guys see how the Dargers even retweeted the "more speculation about a show" thing? Yeah, if they weren't interested, they certainly wouldn't bother doing that, they would just ignore it. They want the reality "fame" as much as the Browns.

I was surprised to see Robyn w/a low-cut major cleavage showing swimsuit (with shorts over the bottom part). the Brown teen girls looked like they were all modestly covered (no cleavage showing swim suits on) nor the other Brown sister wives were displaying cleavage. I thought Robyn was the big preacher of MODESTY to the Brown teens. lol

I love the Browns... and they also annoy me but, still love em. I dont know about marrying ones relatives, little incestuous to me. Mr. Darger is a little too controlling and just not feeling him. Maybe because I prefer utter bliss over organization myself. I do have to have my own kitchen so I understand the women wanting this... I do also love to have anyone else clean it.

Just watched a repeat of Sunday’s show. One thing I thought about where when Meri mentioned about being worried they wouldn’t agree on decorating. To me, I can’t ever tell the difference in which house is which, anyway. It is not like Meri has some fantastic decorating style. I know from reading the book that when the Darger’s built their home, each wife got a Master suite and that is what they have each decorated to their own liking. I just think the Brown’s should feel really ashamed. I know it wasn’t a contest but from every thing to where they live, how they pack etc. the Darger’s win hands down. Kody is not a leader and just like a company needs a President, a family that size needs a leader. He is the reason in my opinion that the family stays in chaos. It is obvious too that Joe’s kids respect him and I do not think that Kody’s do.

Also, I noticed that when all of them were walking into the restaurant for the adult meal that Christine was holding on to Kody’s arm. I don’t normally see any of them really showing affection when they are all together and even in their book they say that it is hard to watch the show and see Kody affectionate with the other wives. That just blows my mind anyway. I mean you know he is over at her house sleeping with her and having all these kids but a hug or touch is off limits.

Just dawned on me out of the 7 woman (4 browns and 3 Dagers) 3 of them have been divorced. Its a 42.8% divorce rate. Just a little fact. I have read of a few web sites and am wondering if its true- that Robyns ex is Janelles cousin? Does anybody know if that is true? In Arizona it is illegal to marry your 1st cousin but in New Mexico it ok.

Hi Anne: good point on the divorce rate that the Brown and Darger wives have. It's a high rate when you consider that all of the women are under 45, so this means that none were married for very long. The much-touted 47% American divorce rate was based on a 1970s study, which was a decade in which many senior couples who had been unhappily married for several decades were finally getting divorced because it had become socially acceptable, plus there were the couples married shorter time getting divorced. Divorces have actually declined since the 1980s, with some estimates as low as 30%.

I do agree with Lyndy that the Darger women all seem to be more adjusted and living in sync together. But, then again, they have known each other their whole lives having been born related to each other! Not fair to compare I think. Also, no drama there so how long would people be interested in watching? I watched that interview with Pobst I think his name is. They seem so much less full of drama when they are on talk shows then on their own show so makes me think TLC stages the drama a bit to keep the ratings. Another lady on this discussion said she went to where the sister wives were manning their jewelry sales booth and they were all so sweet and down to earth. I believe they are. I believe the show digs deeper down to the most negative insecurities they have. And of course there is some jealousy. Other wise they would not be women right?

I kind of role the difference between the smarmy factory of Kody and Joe up like this, if Kody came up to you in a bar you'd call in girlfriend patrol to shield you from the creepy guy and want to shower when you got home. If Joe came up to you in the same evening you'd say JERK, roll your eyes and order another drink.

That sums it up perfectly, julz! With Joe, guy friend patrol might have been in order, as well.

Did anyone else think it odd that after TEN years, Darger wife #2 had big flash of insight that when her twin walked into their home after her divorce? What, had she and Joe never met before? Curiouser and curiouser.

I know I'm late to the party here, but I wanted to shed some light on the Disneyland issue. I live 4 miles from Disneyland, have a Disneyland blog (now on hiatus), and used to be a cast member. First off, the Browns have been to Disneyland, just not all together or with the kids. Back in March 2011 Kody and Christine were there together without any cameras. My friend saw them, then another couple of girls we met in line for a ride actually had a picture. Don't know if I'm allowed to link this? http://myyearwiththemouse.files.wordpress.com/2011/04/kodychristine.jpg

Second, it's important to note that the California resort, Disneyland, and the Florida resort, Walt Disney World, are run by two separate, autonomous teams within the Disney company: Team Disney Anaheim (TDA) and Team Disney Orlando (TDO). Both teams run their resorts separately and independently.

I'm sure the Browns and Dargers wanted free tickets to Disneyland. Who doesn't? But TDA is not in the habit of offering comp tickets to minor celebrities--if they did, they'd have to comp half of Los Angeles--and certainly they are not in the habit of comping large families (watch the Utahans pour in). TDA is much more protective of their brand than TDO. For example, the Gosselins and Cake Boss both visited Disney World, allowed by TDO, but probably wouldn't have been allowed by TDA. The things TDA does allow are shows on their own networks like a recent episode of Modern Family, or people like Oprah.

So if the Browns and the Dargers become besties...I fore see this going horribly wrong...will they start doing more vaca's together..? I. think the Brown sister wives might be eye balling Father Darger....he seem to be everything Cody isn't...wonder if their kids will hook up,court, or get married...

IMO the only things the two families have in common is being polygamists and having both lived in Utah. They aren't even the same religion - the Dargers are Independent Mormon Fundamentalists or something like that - whatever they are the wives and kids are allowed to wear stuff that shows some skin. apparently the AUB doesn't allow it.

The Brown wives might want Joe but I didn't get any impression that Joe was looking to add any more wives...

I found it interesting that we first met the Browns by having Kody go through the house introducing the wives as they were going about their routines and the same for the Dargers. Joe opens the door(with the falling off doorbell button) and after saying hello, takes us to meet each wife who is doing her routine. They are so setting them up to be compared on a spin off. No doubt in my mind and I agree that TLC prolly held that over Kody's dumb head when he tried to demand more whatever(I think.).

I think that the Dargers' show, besides just showing a different way of living polygamy, could be very interesting. I want to see how the parents deal with children becoming adults and making decisions for or against polygamy.

Another subject: do you think Kody will blame Janelle when Logan doesn't come home as much as Kody wants him to? Kody criticized Janelle for not planning a bedroom held solely for Logan. Aside from that, is he pushing her for more bedrooms cuz he thinks that will save him from listening to inequality complaints later or is this his attempt at final king standing up for Janelle, sincere or not?

Sadly,I think it might be more that Kody cannot understand why Janelle isn't going for the biggest, shiniest toy when she has the chance to do so. I doubt he understands moderation or restraint. Janelle has alluded to this problem in the past; she wanted to make do, he wanted to go buy new sleeping bags, etc. Janelle is so beautiful, and such a class act. I feel badly for her, being trapped as she is by circumstance. There is no way she can get out and she obviously wishes she could. In my mind that is the worst part of their religious system - her choice is making do or death for all eternity.

I also think that Janelle is going for the smaller house because 1) she sees the finite resources coming to an end and 2) the smaller house will at least insure that Grody Kody won't move another wife in on her...at least for a while.

If the Dargers are really the plygs they are portraying themselves to be so far - no jealousies, completely organized to the max, all adults working every day, financially stable - then there is no "reality" series. LOL The show would be a massive fail. People tune in for the drama - scripted or not.

Kody and the Kodettes have reached their peak of scripted drama. The crowd is clamoring for the next level. If it doesn't ramp up soon - stick a fork in it. it's done.

If Kody is not on the childrens birth certificates, how is able to pick "his" kids up from school? I'm thinking about an emergency or if one the kids got sick at school.

Speaking of welfare fraud, Kody's unofficially children will most likely be eligible for a greater amount of financial aid when they fill out their FASFA...another one of those things that make you go hmmmmm.

I would imagine the kids have an emergency form filled out at school...you can put several names on the emergency form. I would hope all of their names are on the form, that way anyone of the "moms" or Kody can pick up the kids from school. Heck I even have a good neighbors name on my kids emergency form.

They showed that in an episode in the first season I believe. Christine put the other wives down as moms and Janelle wrote them down as aunts because that's just what is typically done and she didn't see it as a big deal. Christine was just excited to be open and be able to write the other wives down as moms and be public to the school.

I'm not sure if it's been determined whether or not Kody is on the children's birth certificates. It obviously isn't a requirement that the mother and father be legally married to list the father. All they have to do in that case is have the father sign a declaration of paternity and add him to the birth certificate.

Where to start..where to start? This episode completely showed what's really going on with the Browns. As we all saw, Meri is so transparent, she has no control in her place in the family...so she is ONLY concerned about material things, (wetbars, decorating, and oh yeah, CONTROL)! That's why is adores Joe..he represents what she would like to have. She will never except being a true plyg. I'm telling you, Janelle is getting fed up with this whole mess...

The Brown's were obviously intimidated by the Dargers. Especially Coty and Robin..You can hear it so plain in Robin's voice when she talks about the working out thing. Mary had the nerve to say she could be married to Joe. This is a joke, because he is the head in his home, you can tell. She would be in competition with him. Mary has never and still doesn't treat Janelle right..she can cry all she wants..it's how she gets control..it's always worked for her when she wants to get her way.

I know this is off topic, but does anyone know if Janelle & Christine legally changed their last name to Brown? When Robin went to the lawyer she used Sullivan as her last name, but on the bankruptcy forms both Christine & Janelle used Brown.

Yes, both Janelle and Christine have legally changed their last names. Robyn has not yet done so. I'm not sure why she hasn't, and personally I find it a bit odd. The process to change your name isn't that difficult or costly.

Wow.. I just watched the show last night and my first thought was how horrible the browns came out looking. I was quite surprised at some of the closeup shots of Janelle-you know they edit, but still. TLC/Dargers made them look bad IMO. But the Dargers creeped me out too. You could tell from the body language that Joe is a hard nosed father and those kids are afraid of him, I would suppose the stepford wives would be too. To each his own, but neither family is ideal. Kody seemed intimidated himself. On one hand you have big booming macho man Joe, and the other, you have surfer dude, almost one of the girls Kody..hahahahaha

In a large family, you have to be organized (Dargers) or you have chaos (Browns). My problem isn't that they Dargers are organized; my problem is that obviously Joe Darger makes ALL the decisions. And of COURSE he does; he's the man and in his family everything up to infinity and beyond revolves around him.

The only thing that makes Kody watchable over the course of a series is that he has NO organizational skills so doesn't really have the opportunity to annoy all of us by lording it over his wives. A long term diet of the Dargers will have women with torches and pitchforks gathering at their home after a couple weeks.

This is my first post...hello everyone! I enjoy reading what you all have to say. I'm sure my thoughts will be repeats of what has been said...but I can resist no longer! :)

I was totally prepared to be creeped out by the Dargers, but I wasn't. Yes, Joe Darger is controlling, but in a family that big someone needs to be driving the bus. They all seem to follow what they believe in and I found that interesting. They are what I THOUGHT I was going to watch with the Browns. Kody mentioning that his wives make the decisions was great..of course they do because he doesn't have any idea what's he's doing. He just thought this whole polygamy thing would be like way awesome dude.

There is so much talk on here about the selfishness of the Browns. I think we (me included!) forget what this religion is...these people are aiming for becoming GODS. I personally don't plan my day around what I can do to get a higher eternal status. I didn't have my beautiful kids to get a better spot in Heaven. I live each day trying to be kind and respectful because I'm sharing this planet with other living things and we all deserve kindness and respect. So right there from the beginning there is a level of selfishness that seems to go with the Brown's "lifestyle/religion".

Meri.Ugh Meri. I think Meri hates Janelle because she wasn't in control of "picking" her. That was all Kody correct? I feel like because she can't give Kody children, she instead gives him wives. The tension between Meri and Janelle seems to grow each time I see a couch session... I hope Janelle is saving up her leftover pennies from the wetbar to make a run for it...

Meri didn't pick Christine either. And I still have my doubts as to her "official" story of "picking" Robyn. I think she was purposely trying to hurt Christine and Janelle deliberately, or that Kody had already given Robyn the eye and Meri acted on that - or a combination of the two. Example is the trip to Mexico where Meri kept harping on how cute the tour guide was - as if she would drop everything to live the chaotic Brown life. ugh!

From their book, it definitely looks as though Kody actively pursued Janelle, without Meri's input. In fact, once Janelle divorced Meri's brother, Adam, she was actively dating other men. During this time, Kody continued pursuing her, even speaking to Christine (who was at that point merely a "friend") about how Janelle was "driving him crazy". Interestingly enough, Janelle and Robyn were the only wives he actively pursued. Meri and Christine both pursued HIM.

The ideology supporting sister wives that is drilled into the brains of women, young girls, claim that the benefits of sharing a husband are as follows:• You join a community of wives/mothers who loves each other as much, if not more, than the husband• You find emotional support from your sister wives that help you through difficulty times in your life• You find physical support from your sister wives when you need extra hands or feet• You find spiritual support from your sister wives • You co-mother each other’s children• You always have the sister wives’ backs and they your back• The community spirit provides opportunities for the wives to work together in all aspects of their shared communal space from financial support to decorating the house to cooking the mealsBiblically speaking, any time one married multiple women, there were problems, even when those women were sisters: Jacob married sisters and their servants and the women battled all the time and one always felt unloved.Sarah’s idea to put her servant in bed with her husband so that she could have a child; we all know how badly that ended.Even Moses’ taking on another wife not only upset his wife, it upset his sister to the point that he cursed her. Then we see the Brown Clowns. They are so secure in their relationship and they are either so arrogant or just plain stupid that they come on national TV to show the world how polygs live and how they are just like non-polygs. Referring back to the ideology that supports polygamy, let’s review where the Brown Clowns fall:• There is no community of women who love each other—Meri abused Janelle and Christine and still tries to abuse them by taking funds that she doesn’t need, by yelling at their children, by pushing their husband into new relationships, by insulting them, by comparing herself and her kid to them and their kids• There is no emotional support. When one cries, the others try to avert the sympathy from the one crying back to their own problems. • We have seen Janelle and Christine both trying to manage loading cars and kids and Meri, who has one child, stands and watches. • The wives do not support each other spiritually because they are too busy trying to make sure they get the extra bedrooms and extra wet bars and extra food. They are not one for all and all for one but I’m going to get mine.• No co-mothering because guess who hired a nanny• They do not work together; they do not share a communal space, and sharing a kitchen is abusive.

So I am rewatching this week's episode for the third time (sick in bed with the flu) and here are the things that really stood out for me:* When Meri is on the couch crying over the perceived abuse of Janelle she says, "I have a louder voice. I have a STRONGER voice." Talk about passive aggressive! To imply that because Janelle taking the higher road and not engaging in Meri's dog fight is "weak" is typical Meri behavior.* At the opening of the show the adults are on the couch explaining the events that are about to unfold, and they trip over themselves with giddy saying repeatedly "Plyg vacation", "Plyg "Cation", etc. As if there is some novelty to that. Watch out, Oceanside California: There is a wave of polygamy coming through". As seen in previous episodes overe and over and over again, the Brown's enjoy (a little too much) the spectacle they (want) to create wherever they go. It is getting really old.*Did Grody REALLY say they want to show that all polygamist families commit welfare fraud. That man is maddening. I wanted to cram all their bankruptcy paper work down his lying throat.*Why-oh-why do we see Grody's white Lexus convertible pull up in front of the Oceanside rental? This family know nothing of fiscal responsibility. How many people can fit in the Lexus? At MAYBE 21 miles to the gallon, you can take a minivan which will seat 4 times as many people and baggage.*Grody, the Ungrateful Grifter, called the rental a "postage stamp". Someone in the comments above shared a link to the rentals and I think there were 20 some bedrooms. Hardly a postage stamp.

There was so much more that wanted to make me throw a shoe at the tv, but I will wait for the administrator's eagle eye review to vent it all out.

I agree about the Lexus having been handed down to Logan. I thought I saw it at Janelle's house when Grody pulled up in the new chick-mobile.

I think that if one of the Darger kids has inherited one of their older family vehicles, Papa Joe would STILL have had the kid riding in one of the vans because it would have saved gas, and the kid could have helped with the younger kids assigned to that van.

I love coming to this blog with my cup of coffee and cruising through all the insightful and entertaining comments. Thanks for this site! My observations are much the same as everyone else. Joe seems to run his home like a militant, with high demands and expectations for his children (obedience & respect) and wives (working out, looking good and getting along with each other.) Kody has...um, let's just say the complete opposite of all of that. Someone pointed out that a show about the Dargers would be boring. True. And the show about the Browns has basically jumped the shark. I'm wondering if combining the 2 families is TLC's last ditch effort to milk this train wreck for another season. Individually, each family is not enough to hold the attention of the viewers. But when compared side by side...with an extra heaping helping of hostility and passive aggressive behavior that the presence of other women ignite in the selfish Brown wives...and you might have interest peaked again. These families are as different as night and day, but one commonality holds them all together...this lifestyle would S-U-C-K!!

One of the most best decisions made for the old reality series about Hugh Hefner's girlfriends, The Girls Next Door, was that the show would focus more on the women than on Hefner. Hefner's pretty much a dirty old womanizer, so people probably didn't want to watch him. As a result, the show made the Playboy Mansion look like a big, fun sorority. It was fun to watch, even if it did whitewash some of the ugly parts of that culture.

By contrast, Sister Wives has Kody on far too much. People generally think that polygamous males are jerks, and Kody keeps reinforcing that image. I'd rather see more of what the women do without Kody around, especially if the women do things together. There have a few scenes in which the women are at restaurants without Kody around, but those seemed to be staged for the conversations that take place.

Do any of the women share interests unrelated to the kids? While having several kids will take up a lot of one's time, do these women have any hobbies unrelated to polygamy? Do any play musical instruments? What type of movies do they like, if any? Do any belong to non-religious clubs such as a weekly bowling league? Do any of them read SciFi novels, other than the Book of Mormon?

A couple of people mentioned the condo having 22 bedrooms...it didn't..it has 10 bedrooms, and says it sleeps 22.....I think they had 2 houses/condos, next to each other? There's no way they got 50+ people in that place...anyone know what the second one looks like?

Here are the most disturbing for me:1. Meri crying about the "perceived abuse" and saying that she has a stronger.... Why not just say, "I was young and trying to work through my jealousy and I was controlling and I am so sorry. 2. Janelle's passive agressive look. Straight ahead with the really rebellious glare and then instead of using that as an opportunity to confront and work through this whole mess she tries to apply some psychological slant (something she tries to do in every situation), we had not role models....wrong. Role models abounded...even in the bible. 3. All four of the sister wives were too easily turned on by the darger guy. I'm sorry, but it takes a lot for me to say in front of my husband that I could marry that. I really think either the women were trying to play head games with Kody so that he might feel how they feel or they are just these women who need to fit in. 4. the Darger wives made the Brown clowns look so slovenly, so selfish, so heathen like. 5. The Dargers really, really, really made the Browns look like they fly by the seat of their pants always.

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