Demonstration for Gaza

It was a high-energy demonstration in Albany yesterday (Thurs., July 24) – one hundred twenty-five people, by count, decrying Israel’s killing of civilians in Gaza and demanding an end to U.S. support for the atrocity. Not that it will have any effect on either the U.S. or the Israeli government, but I do believe it’s better than sitting back passively and saying there’s nothing we can do about it. At least we can shout and holler, which is what a lot of us did at Dana Park, where Madison Avenue crosses Delaware Avenue, though I’m rather too reserved for such manifestations myself. It was mostly young people, some of them Palestinian, which was nice to see, and some of them self-identified as Jewish, which was even nicer to see, who contributed the vocal energy: “Free, free, Gaza!” To which I murmured, Amen, followed by, fat chance.

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Laying out signs, getting ready to make a show of opposition to the massacre of civilians in Gaza.

Laying out signs, getting ready to make a show of opposition to the massacre of civilians in Gaza.

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The main group of demonstrators clustered at the point of Dana Park to face traffic coming down Lark Street, crossing Madison Avenue.

The main group of demonstrators clustered at the point of Dana Park to face traffic coming down Lark Street, crossing Madison Avenue.

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A number of demonstrators identified themselves as Jews, lest anyone buy into the slur that those who oppose massacres by the self-described "Jewish state" of Israel are anti-Semitic.

A number of demonstrators identified themselves as Jews, lest anyone buy into the slur that those who oppose massacres by the self-described "Jewish state" of Israel are anti-Semitic.

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A slogan of Jewish demonstrators, including those from the organization Jewish Voice for Peace. I would add, not in my name, either, please.

A slogan of Jewish demonstrators, including those from the organization Jewish Voice for Peace. I would add, not in my name, either, please.

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Muslim women willing to stand publicly against Israeli terrorism but shy about being photographed. I wish they would get over that.

Muslim women willing to stand publicly against Israeli terrorism but shy about being photographed. I wish they would get over that.

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No sign is going to do it. I don't know if anything will do it as long as the United States government and news media remain cowed by Israel's powerful American boosters.

No sign is going to do it. I don't know if anything will do it as long as the United States government and news media remain cowed by Israel's powerful American boosters.

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A Palestinian flag flew in Albany more freely than it can fly in the land that got converted into an exclusivist "Jewish state." Now, I wonder how that happened, and I wonder why it's regarded in the United States government and media as such a wonderful thing, that there should be a nation where one ethnic-religious group guarantees itself dominance and regards the native inhabitants of the country as well as all other non-members of its tribe as a "demographic threat." less

A Palestinian flag flew in Albany more freely than it can fly in the land that got converted into an exclusivist "Jewish state." Now, I wonder how that happened, and I wonder why it's regarded in the United ... more

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Stop, stop, stop, is all we could say. Many passersby cheered and honked and flashed the victory sign, to my considerable surprise.

Stop, stop, stop, is all we could say. Many passersby cheered and honked and flashed the victory sign, to my considerable surprise.

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Let it not be said, come Judgment Day, that I was neutral when a nation supported by my own systematically murdered people they had already conquered and dispossessed. That's me in the Panama hat, and my wife next to me. less

Let it not be said, come Judgment Day, that I was neutral when a nation supported by my own systematically murdered people they had already conquered and dispossessed. That's me in the Panama hat, and my wife ... more

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Demonstration for Gaza

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No, there is no staying Israel’s hand as long as our government and our news media remain in the thrall of Israel’s single-minded boosters in this country, is what I think. Certainly not as long as television reporters get pulled from their Gaza assignments for too honest work.

For Israel these periodic rampages against unfortunate Gaza are merely what one of its commanders characterized to Army Radio as “routine maintenance,” like “mowing the grass.” Or, depending on your perspective, it’s what the Israeli historian Ilan Pappe has called “incremental genocide.”

Most miserable to me is the press attempt to equate Gaza’s almost totally ineffective rocket fire with Israel’s ruthlessly accurate bombing and shelling. “This is not a war, it’s a massacre,” declared one placard yesterday, and that seemed about right. It’s a situation that as of this writing has resulted in 578 Palestinian civilian deaths, including those of 185 children, as against three Israeli civilian deaths. Yes, 185 Palestinian children killed in Israel’s attacks on densely populated neighborhoods, on schools, hospitals, rehab centers, even on a U.N. school where people fleeing for their lives had taken shelter. Imagine the effrontery of a nation that commits such atrocities in full view of the world characterizing the other side as “terrorists” or contending that the civilians it kills are “human shields” cynically employed by “terrorists,” who of course have no regard for human life. (“We sanctify life, they sanctify death,” quoth Benjamin Netanyahu.) Bombing a conquered and blockaded territory, one-fourth the size of Albany County, holding 1.8 million people who have nowhere to run.

It is very creative thinking that has The New York Times begin an editorial, as it did today, by saying, “The fighting is terrorizing innocent people on both sides of the border.”

In Albany, of course, 125 people waving flags and signs and chanting support for Gaza at the height of rush hour probably drew a lot of news coverage, right? Television cameras, newspaper reporters, and so on. A media feeding frenzy, as they say. But no, actually, that’s wrong. There was not a single reporter or television camera in sight. And it was a nice day, too.

Anyway, I direct your attention to the photo gallery above, my effort to preserve a record of the event.

Who fired first? Well, um, European and Russian Jews came to the land and took it from the local Arabs, no? And have been taking it from them ever since, piecemeal. And have been beating them down ever since, branding any and all resistance as terrorism. All the while portraying themselves as victims. This didn’t start last week.

Hey Carl, who fired first? Well if you want to go back all the way weren’t the European and Russian Jew originally from Israel but were kicked out of the land I think that you can read about that in Exodus. Additionally if you know anything about his please due some research on the many different centuries of the Jewish Diaspora.

Also a large portion of Jews in Israel came from Arab countries who were kicked out of these lands most by force. To be precise 260,000 Jews from Arab countries had immigrated to Israel between 1948 and 1951 and amounted for 56% of the total immigration to the newly founded State of Israel. 600,000 Jews from Arab and Muslim countries had reached Israel by 1972.

Additionally, do you deny that Hamas is a terrorist organization? Did you ever read their founding charter which states that Israel and all Jews must be destroyed?

Do you deny that you rather focus on Israeli killing of several hundred Palestinian’s that the Sunni vs. Shia civil war where over 100,000 people have died in Syria? Or the call for genital mutilation of all women in Mosul. Where is your call of outrage over these events? Where are the protests? I think that you rather focus your energy on the an easy target.

Why were weapons at the U.N. school? Why did Ban Ki-Moon express outrage that these weapons were being stored there? Why does Hamas tell people to stay in there home when Israel tells them to leave because it will be bombed? Why is Hamas’ head quarters located under a hospital in Gaza which Israel built.

What Exodus are you talking about, Dave? The Biblical one, which is simply tribal mythology with no basis in historical fact, or the novelistic one, by Leon Uris, which is surely the most odious racist creation ever to reach the best-seller lists? Kicked out of the land, my foot.

Many Jews came from Arab countries after Israel was created – so what? Israel was still created on land stolen from Arabs.

I will grant that Hamas is a terrorist organization if you will grant that Israel is a terrorist state. I don’t know what else to call a state that massacres civilians as Israel has been massacring them in Gaza. If that’s not terrorism I don’t know what is.

I focus on Israel’s killing several hundred Palestinians rather than on the greater casualties of intra-Arab warfare, first, because it is supported by my own government and, second, because it is grossly misrepresented in this country as self-defense, whereas the horrors of Sunni-Shiite warfare are known to all and recognized by all. Nobody tries to peddle the Syrian government to the world as a poor little set-upon victim in need of sympathy, much less as a “vibrant democracy,” as Israel is constantly peddled to us.

Finally, it is presumptuous in the extreme for an aggressor state like Israel, or for an apologist like you, to declare how its victims may defend themselves and to feign indignation when they don’t run away fast enough to avoid being killed. This whole business of bombing schools, hospitals and densely populated neighborhoods and then describing those places as legitimate military targets and the dead children as unfortunate “human shields” is truly disgusting.

Protests like these but on a much larger scale are very much commonplace in other westernized nations, but the comparative lack of outrage in the U.S. is extremely revealing. It’s very upsetting how we have allowed a foreign power to hijack American politics such that the U.S. is all-in with taking one side of a generations- (if not centuries) old ethnic and religious blood war. The most effective way to put a stop to this is for the U.S. to turn off the spigot of military aid to Israel, but as long as the American public and politicians are too cowardly to stand up to the Zionists, there will be no end in sight.

Thank you Carl and Pearl for continuing to fight the good fight. the number of fatalities on each side speak volumes about the truth of what is going on there. but the israeli bully pulpit, supported by both public and private american dollars, is not to be underestimated. thank you again for contributing to getting the truth of what’s going on there to the public here.

It would seem some element of “Truth” would suggest the difference in “number of fatalities on each side” is testament to the willingness of HAMAS to use Palestinian civilians, especially women and children, as “cannon fodder” to advance their objectives.

Reducing the reality of war to that of some imaginary “game” where level playing fields and equal capabilities are matched to provide some concept of a “fair” exchange or contest, works a lot better in a video game than reality. The difference being the people who die in actual warfare, are really dead forever and the buildings blown up, take years to clean up and rebuild.

Actually, “the press attempt to equate Gaza’s almost totally ineffective rocket fire with Israel’s ruthlessly accurate bombing and shelling. “This is not a war, it’s a massacre”, is reality, and if dealing with sane individuals, should be an obvious indicator that the provocation HAMAS insists on instigating is a really poor strategic choice.

Difficult to fathom, but even harder to discount, HAMAS simply couldn’t possibly care less about the mounting Palestinian civilian death toll, because it provides the valuable public relations argument they base their long term strategy on. Time is not that big a factor, HAMAS understands the Palestinian civilian population will keep creating new babies to use as photogenic props for as long as it takes.

The problem with, “Gaza’s almost totally ineffective rocket fire” is it’s inaccuracy serves more as a element of terror than that of precision guided munitions that can be pinpointed to strike legitimate military targets (away from civilians), and those killed by, even the most ineffective rocket fire, stay just as dead.

The cause and effect is not difficult to understand, WHENEVER a rocket is fired at someone, the inevitable response is to eliminate where the rocket was fired from, and who fired it. The next, inevitable priority, is likely to eliminate any similar rocket firing capabilities, and whomever would fire them. HAMAS, knowing full well EXACTLY what the response will be to their rocket attacks deliberately and maliciously places their rocket launching sites in the midst of their most sensitive CIVILIAN locations (Hospitals, residences, schools, Mosques, Markets) in hopes of reducing retaliation because of Israel’s reluctance, and hesitation, to involve civilians.

When a rocket launching site located within a civilian setting is destroyed, the secondary objective of whining and wailing about the, truly unnecessary and despicable civilian casualties, provides the intended public relations bonanza.

It’s not rocket science, if you want to avoid having rocks (or rockets) thrown back at you, don’t start a rock throwing fight, with someone who has bigger and better rocks. The HAMAS leadership may be many things, but STUPID is NOT one of them. They don’t throw rocks, rather they prod, instigate and motivate Palestinians to throw rocks for them, and of course, to catch any rocks, that they know full well and hope, will be thrown back.

As long as HAMAS, or other terrorist interests, have any say whatsoever in the future of Palestine, it will always be a bloody sacrificial lamb to HAMAS overall objectives and the Palestinian people will suffer NEEDLESSLY.

Blaming Hamas for Israel’s latest slaughter of Palestinians is ingenious, Albert, and your faith in “Israel’s reluctance and hesitation to involve civilians” is truly touching, removed as it is from any connection with the historical record. That Hamas lures poor reluctant Israel to kill Palestinian civilians is one of the more transparent elements of Israeli propaganda, and that you not only parrot it but further propose that Palestinians will continue creating more babies as photo props, marks you as a party to Zionism’s most repugnant ideology.

Who are you, anyway, Albert J., holding such hateful beliefs? Will you please identify yourself?

Is it being influenced by what you consider, Israeli propaganda, or what I personally see unfolding before my eyes in TV and print news reports? Are you claiming that Israel is NOT announcing targets before they attack? What, and who, are your sources that contest this claim, which many news reports verify.

I certainly would agree with you that using Palestinian civilians as fodder for Israeli retaliations is, at least, “repugnant”, and likely a lot worse, but are you denying that HAMAS stockpiles, stores and actually fires, their Iranian provided rockets at Israel from civilian locations, fully understanding that once activated many of these locations become targets for return fire.

Since this expected behavior, which is responsible for a sizable amount of civilian casualties, has been well known, and remains unchanged, the conclusion that HAMAS considers civilian casualties acceptable, seems somewhat obvious.

What “hateful beliefs” are you so concerned about, that people who induce others to murder, murder themselves and preach everlasting hate and revenge are simply “bad” people and are chiefly responsible for the current state of relations in the general area are actually dangerous fanatics?

I’m just someone trying to asses the situation, and the actual causes of the problem, honestly, which is something difficult to glean from your writings.

Let’s see: Israel sometimes announces attacks. Isn’t that lovely? Run for your lives, suckers, you’ve got one minute. But then, when you take shelter in a U.N. school, we’ll bomb that too. You have an odd sense of morality, Albert J., whoever you are.

As for Hamas storing and firing weapons from civilian locations, it ill behooves a conqueror and occupier to dictate to its victims where they shall store and fire their weapons. Can you imagine anything more presumptuous?

As for your hateful beliefs, they are on abundant display, especially in your previous comment about Palestinians creating babies as future “photo props.” I need not itemize them. But as for preaching hate, one might forgive a beaten and humiliated people for hating those who beat and humiliate them. One might even be surprised if they didn’t hate them. But what about the conquerors and occupiers, what about their naked hatred for Arabs, which, if you have ever had occasion to visit the Holy Land, you might find of some interest.

“It’s a situation that as of this writing has resulted in 578 Palestinian civilian deaths, including those of 185 children, as against three Israeli civilian deaths. Yes, 185 Palestinian children killed in Israel’s attacks on densely populated neighborhoods, on schools, hospitals, rehab centers, even on a U.N. school where people fleeing for their lives had taken shelter.”

Hamas Killed 160 Palestinian Children to Build Terror Tunnels
Militant group used child labor to construct underground network in Gaza

Gunga, you scamp you, evincing a concern for Palestinian children allegedly killed by Hamas and referring me to Tablet Magazine, self-described as a “daily online magazine of Jewish news, ideas, and culture,” with which I was previously unfamiliar — though I do note that the scholarly blogger at “jewishphilosophyplace” derides the “slick, flip, lavishly financed new electronic Jewish tribalism” on display there. “Flip,” I should say so, referring to Gaza’s underground supply network as “terror tunnels.” Gunga, if you would go back one step and read the article in the Journal of Palestine Studies on which the Tablet article is based you would find that the tunnels, far more extensive than I had imagined, are essential to Gaza’s economy, blockaded as it is by Israel, and are described by one local businessman as “the lungs through which Gaza breathes” and by the author himself as “the underground lifeline for Gaza’s population,” so that the description of them as “terror tunnels” is just more crude propaganda designed to justify the crushing of Palestinian nationhood. That an organ of “electronic Jewish tribalism” disseminates the propaganda doesn’t surprise me, but you, Gunga, a man of integrity, what are you doing passing it along?

Now, I confess I did not know that children are employed in the digging of these tunnels and that 160 of them have died in the process. I find this appalling. But I also find it appalling that Israel imposes such a stranglehold on the nearly 2 million people of Gaza that the digging of these tunnels is necessary in the first place, just to acquire necessities. And that your cited source, this tribal Tablet magazine, digs up the dismal information just now, obviously to counter the revulsion felt in much of the world by Israel’s slaughter of Gazan children, really, Gunga, how cynical is that?

Carl, you bon vivant you, lavishly showering love on the (literally) underground economy without noticing the suicide belts and weapons found in them and not asking why one tunnel entrance was found under a kibbutzim.

If I recall correctly you have visited the Holy Land, I wonder if by chance you visited Jerusalem and hied on by King George Street and Jaffa Road in downtown Jerusalem. I ask because there is a anniversary coming up that I am sure you won’t want to miss.

“Afterwards, when I took the bus, the Palestinians around Damascus Gate [in Jerusalem] were all smiling. You could sense that everybody was happy. When I got on the bus, nobody knew that it was me who had led [the suicide bomber to the target]… I was feeling quite strange, because I had left [the bomber] ‘Izz Al-Din behind, but inside the bus, they were all congratulating one another. They didn’t even know one another, yet they were exchanging greetings…While I was sitting on the bus, the driver turned on the radio. But first, let me tell you about the gradual rise in the number of casualties. While I was on the bus and everybody was congratulating one another..”

Really, Gunga, is that the best you’ve got? Would you like to compare anniversaries and atrocities and outrages? Bulldozings, bombings of schools, imprisonments without charges, deaths under interrogation, shootings of children, separation of families, “price-tag” attacks, celebrations of murder? Don’t you keep up on things? And don’t you understand who is the conqueror here and who the conquered?

The last suicide bombing in Israel/Palestine, as I remember, was in something like 2008, maybe earlier, I don’t have the exact date in front of me, whereas “price-tag” vandalism, including physical assaults, cutting down of trees and desecration of mosques and churches, employing such slogans as “Jesus was a monkey,” is a regular occurrence, never punished, as you would know if you read the Israeli press. I forgive you for being fixated on suicide bombings, since I was too before I went to the Holy Land and saw things for myself, saw who was the oppressor and who the oppressed. Violent reaction on the part of an occupied people can be explained if not excused, in my view, but what excuses or explains violent behavior on the part of conquerors and occupiers? Don’t answer, Gunga, you give me a headache.

It’s a shame that the Palestinians won’t adopt non-violence, a tactic for which Israel would have no effective countermeasure. Probably a pipe dream, it’s not like a population in the 20th Century ever tried to win their freedom from a repressive, totalitarian regime.

For God’s sake, stop it, Gunga … a smart alecky remark about a television station when Israel just destroyed Gaza’s only power plant, which among other things powers the sewage system, so that 1.8 million people now do not have sewage, and when Israel, having hit yet another school, has now killed more 1,200 people, including at least 300 children.
As for Palestinians adopting non-violence, it is a suggestion that has been made more than once by liberal Zionists, who think the Palestinians would fare better that way. A wonderful suggestion coming from conquerors and their supporters, like you, advising their victims not to be violent. Be like Gandhi. I have a better suggestion: Let Israel adopt non-violence. Let Israel deprive people of their homes, their land, their water employing Gandhian methods.

“Hitler,” Gandhi solemnly affirmed, “killed five million Jews. It is the greatest crime of our time. But the Jews should have offered themselves to the butcher’s knife. They should have thrown themselves into the sea from cliffs. I believe in hara-kiri. I do not believe in its militaristic connotations, but it is a heroic method.”

“You think,” I said, “that the Jews should have committed collective suicide?”

And surely you have seen the Academy-Award-nominated film “Five Broken Cameras,” which documents, among other things, the non-violence of Palestinian residents in Bil’in? And are familiar with BDS, a non-violent way for the rest of us to act against Israeli aggression?

Sometimes non-violence is practiced to spotlight to others the brutality of the aggressor. In that sense, it involves not just the practicers and the aggressor, but the witnesses, who take action as a result of what they see. So non-violence is not a two-way street, but a collective commitment to both principle and actuality. If you say that non-violence has failed or is ineffective in Gaza–maybe it’s because witnesses (including you) are sitting on your asses.

Gunga, I suggest that you read “Resistance in Palestine” by Mazin Qumsiyeh, which documents in detail, that collective nonviolent action by Palestinians has been consistently taking place for several decades, as the rule and not the exception, or “A Quiet Revolution” by Mary Elizabeth King, which documents a long history of non-violence in Palestine. For more modern information about Palestinian non-violent actions, watch the film “Budrus”, or the Academy-Award-nominated “5 Broken Cameras”. The many incidents factually and verifiably documented in these books in these books and films shows in detail how non-violence was met with violence on the Israeli side, and spun to American news media, as “incitement”. As for being taught to hate, do you really think a child needs cartoons to form an opinion about the perpetrators of the destruction, bloodshed and gruesome death that have become driving factors in his daily life.

Carl;
People can go on and on about who has a legitimate right to the land where Israel sits. What it really comes down to is Hamas and other organizations not recognizing Israel’s right to exist and their declarations that Israel and Jews must be destroyed. Until these organizations renounce these views there can be no peace. People say Israel needs to give up land to the Palestinians and that will solve the conflict. That’s nonsense as evidenced by Israel’s ceding of Gaza which was followed by continued aggression by Palestinians against Israel in the form of rockets and terror attacks. Once Hamas and these other organizations legitimately recognize Israel and renounce their views that Jews should be destroyed, there can be legitimate peace negotiations involving land and the establishment of a Palestinian state.

James: It is the Palestinians’ right to exist that is in question, not Israel’s. The Palestinians are the conquered and dispossessed people, conquered and dispossessed for the sake of a Jewish state. They have no means of destroying Israel, far from it. It is Israel that is bent on destroying them, on grinding them into non-existence, and this current rampage in Gaza is just the latest in a long chain of such rampages. To blame on Palestinians, or to cast the situation as a conflict between two equal sides, is to miss the point. ……. Carl

I never said or implied the sides were equal. I said it is Hamas and other Palestinian organizations having as their goal the destruction of Jews and Israel. If Israel truly didn’t want the Palestinians to exist, they could easily obliterate them. But they don’t. Israel would like to peacefully co-exist. That’s not possible when Hamas just wants to destroy you. Do you not agree that in order for there to be a chance at peace Hamas and whatever other Palestinian authorities put themselves out there must change their position that Israel cannot exist? Only then can a meaningful peace agreement including land transfers be reached.

You are putting things backwards, James. It is the Zionist movement that from the beginning has tried to get rid of the Palestinian Arabs. Indeed, it is the central problem of the movement, how to get rid of the pesky natives. You say Hamas wants to destroy Israel, the exclusivist Jewish state? Sure, no question about it, but it is pure bluster on the part of a zealous counter-movement representing a beleaguered, besieged, beaten-down people with no significant weapons, no organized armed forces, and virtually no support from neighboring Arab states. To contend under these circumstances that the central problem is Hamas’s desire to destroy Israel is ridiculous. And to contend that Israel would like to peacefully coexist is even more ridiculous. Israel would like the Palestinian Arabs to go away. “Submit, leave or die” is the policy. “They want to destroy us; we just want to live peacefully with them” is a denial of the past century of Zionist-Palestinian history, which has been one of relentless Jewish expansion at the expense of the Palestinians, and is another example of the conquerors feeling sorry for themselves, which I take to be the unique characteristic of Zionism.

James,
You missed a few beats in your recollection: “Israel’s ceding of Gaza which was followed by continued aggression”. Your image of an ungrateful free people is as far from reality as it could be.

After Israel withdrew from Gaza, the Gazans in free elections chose Hamas as their ruling party. The reasons did not actually have a lot to do with Israel, but this wasn’t the result Israel expected, so Israel established a blockade that deprived Gazans access to sufficient food, water and resources to build a viable society. Israel’s motive was to “weaken” Hamas. The blockade did the opposite, and continues to do so. .

By any definition, the forced control Israel exercises over Gaza cannot remotely be called “ceding”.

re: Your comment: “Until these organizations renounce these views there can be no peace.” In 2002, the Arab League, consisting of 22 nations, including the Palestinians, offered to recognize Israel according to 1967 borders. Hamas could not have opposed such a recognition and survived. Israel has not even acknowledged that offer (which is still on the table) let alone responded.

As for declarations of “right to exist”: Do you have anything to say about the Likud Party platform? Please read the Likud platform and respond.

While Exodus was not grounded in historical fact, wasn’t the area we now know as Israel primarily populated by Jews prior to conflicts between them and the Romans? Then, much later in history – due to antisemitic persecution there was a surge of emigration of Jews back to Israel?

In view of the holocaust and other forms of persecution prior to that, I can understand why Jews felt they needed their own homeland. In the midst of the holocaust, when they were shoveling Jews in to ovens like so much firewood, many nations refused to give them refuge. How radicalized would your thinking be if there was an organized effort by a nation state to wipe every one of your race/ethnic group off the face of the earth?

My point, or at least a reasonable question – is it painting at least a partially inaccurate picture to simply suggest England and other world powers kicked Arabs off their land and handed it over to the Jews? Why did the Jews leave that land in the first place?

Absolutely tragic what is occurring in Gaza. Ultimately, the two parties will have to find a way for two states to exist. Both parties have a legitimate claim to that area. Presently, I do not see Hamas agreeing to such an arrangement.

Exodus of the Bible is not grounded in historical fact, to be sure, which is a polite way of saying it is fiction. Not even the nationalistic Israel Museum in Jerusalem contends there was Jewish captivity in Egypt followed by a return to the Promised Land. But neither was there a kicking out from the Holy Land, by the Romans, in 70 C.E., following the Jewish revolt. I refer you to Shlomo Sand’s “The Invention of the Jewish People,” and especially to Chapter 3, “The Invention of the Exile.” Hebrew people traveled and moved around the Roman Empire the same as any other people did, and some of them were surely taken as slaves after the great revolt, and they surely mixed with other people, and other people surely converted to Judaism, for which there is abundant documentation, as there is not for any mass deportation. So to contend, 2,000 later, that the Jewish people of Europe and Russia are the lineal descendants of the biblical Israelites is very much a reach, though an impartial observer would have to ask, even if it were true, so what? Would that entitle them to “return” and claim the land that had belonged to their remote ancestors? Has anyone heard of such a thing anywhere else in the world? That the Jews of Europe and Russia were ruthlessly persecuted is beyond doubt. That they needed a safe haven any decent person would readily grant. That they were entitled to dispossess the Arab inhabitants of Palestine is what’s in question.

So the idea that “both parties have a legitimate claim” is also in question. As for Hamas agreeing to accept Israel, I don’t see that either, but the Palestine Liberation Organization already agreed, at Oslo in 1993, recognizing Israel’s right to exist within secure borders, thus surrendering their own claim to almost all of the land that they lost, and look what it got them: nothing. Worse than nothing, the continued, ongoing confiscation of yet more land and yet more water for the establishment of yet more Jewish-only settlements. It appears to be Israel that does not want co-existence. Rather, what it appears to desire for Palestine is non-existence.

The settlers and Hamas are both part of the problem. They are the ones who keep reigniting the fire. I just don’t think you can law the blame for all of this at the feet of the Israelis. One has to consider attacks of terrorism directed at Israel. The average Palestinian, like most civilians in wartime, get caught in the crossfire.

With all due respect, I reject the idea of equivalence. The settlers and Hamas are by no means equal parts of the problem. Settlers, the vanguard of the state of Israel, steal land from Palestinians and occasionally shoot and kill Palestinians who get too close to their confiscated property. Hamas, for its part, launches what you and Israel call terrorist attacks which have almost no practical effect, while Israel’s far more terroristic shellings and bombings of densely populated Gaza get categorized (by Israel and its Amen corner in America) as self-defense. This is not fair and not accurate. And don’t forget that Gaza is by no stretch of anyone’s imagination an equal contender with the state of Israel but is, on the contrary, a tiny territory at Israel’s mercy (or lack of mercy). A tiny territory surrounded, cut off and besieged by a military behemoth against which it is practically helpless. And why is it so besieged? Because its inhabitants, ground down as they are, elected as their government the extremist Hamas. That’s why — as punishment, in violation of both international law and common decency. So no, please, don’t lay the blame equally. There is no comparison. Palestinians seize no Jewish land for Arab use only, they hold no Jewish prisoners without charges, they set up no checkpoints through which Jews must pass to get to work, they impede no Jewish families from living together, they deny citizenship to no Jewish residents. From time to time someone among them commits an atrocious act, but in scope these are minor compared to the atrocities regularly inflicted on them by the “Jewish and democratic state.” Their elected representatives in Hamas indeed have a crackpot charter, which Isreal’s boosters are forever citing as evidence of evil, but that charter, loony as it is, is just bombast. To say that it’s what prevents peace is to ignore the larger picture of which it is a tiny part. Cheers and regards.

Not to question your sincerity, Carl, but perhaps a little concern over your logic, are you actually suggesting that the constant, continual, persistent threats HAMAS leadership delivers personally against the entire Israeli populace, is just a little excess or perhaps exuberant rhetoric and should not be a matter of concern, despite the fact they’ve been trying their best to carry out their threats, by any means possible, for multiple DECADES.

Do you not understand, Albert J., that the Jewish state you so admire conquered the Palestinian people, drove them off much of their land, and in the case of Gaza, imprisoned them in a tiny territory where this same Jewish state periodically destroys infrastructure in order to make life insupportable for them and that the people there confined, to no great surprise, elected the extremist Hamas as their government, the more moderate Fatah having achieved little if anything by way of liberation for them. And you are indignant that this same Hamas issues threats against Israel. Where is your sense of proportion, man?

It’s not a question of “loving” the Israeli people any more, or less, that the Palestinian people, as much as it might be a simple matter of deciphering who is actually causing the problem both Israelis and Palestinians are suffering with. If you want, you can keep going back and forth with the “Who shot John” routine, but it’s leading NOWHERE.

There was this great war (WW II) after which the UN created the nation of Israel, which didn’t set all that well with the people who lived there. As mankind has decreed, “To the victors, goes the spoils”, and the UN represented the Victors. Since 1948 (perhaps even before) hardliners on either side have controlled the discussion, resisted compromise any form of consensus and the two sides proceeded in their own, opposite, directions.

The Palestinians, and their supporters, have stubbornly resisted any serious peaceful coexistence, insisting on absolute capitulation, which is likely NEVER, EVER going to happen, spawning several incremental wars that have served to only weaken their position and prolong their focus on hating and destroying a competitor, rather than creating a positive future.

60+ years of acrimony, distrust and hate has caused mistakes on both sides of the issue, that will only continue to produce continued frustration and deeper divisions and greater obstacles, that offer benefit to NOBODY. Dueling frustrations is no formula for success.

Perhaps long frustrations contributed mightily to the Palestinian people selecting HAMAS as a potential solution. That was a catastrophic mistake and ultimately the Palestinian people will recognize their error and hopefully be able to correct it, but it will cause unbelievable inevitable pain and suffering, because HAMAS will not loosen it’s death grip on the Palestinian people easily, or quickly.

Gaining trust after 60+ years of deceit and betrayal is a difficult task requiring enormous levels of patience and resolve, for which there has been little evidence. As hate and mistrust follow every like effort by an enemy, trust and confidence tend to follow efforts in that regard, but the path is much slower as the memories of prior failures linger much longer.

It’s not rocket science, there’s still the question of, What’s first, the chicken or the egg”. To reduce the defensive policies of restrictions and mistrust requires ending the practices of secretly building armaments for the next future attack. Mistrust will not evaporate overnight, it will REQUIRE consistent, long term cooperation.

Isn’t repeating the exact same behaviors and expecting different results a sign of insanity? The foundation and bedrock belief of the strategy to “Wipe Israel off the face of the earth” isn’t working and likely never will, because it’s simply the WRONG strategy and the WRONG approach. If the current leadership adamantly refuses to change direction, perhaps that leadership needs to be replaced, before everyone is dead.

Just a few points, Albert. That “Palestinians and their supporters resisted any serious coexistence, insisting on absolute capitulation,” is simply not true. Palestinians, represented by the PLO, pretty much threw in the towel in Oslo in 1993 in exchange for little more than formal recognition. They recognized “the right of the state of Israel to exist in peace and security,” they “renounce[d] the use of terrorism and other acts of violence” — though Israel did not — and they declared “inoperative and no longer valid” those parts of their charter that denied Israel’s right to exist, whereas Israel recognized no rights of the Palestinians.

What they got was a greatly accelerated Israeli program of confiscating Palestinian land and creating Jewish-only settlements, connected by Jewish-only roads. (See my response to Informed Reader.) Also, the Arab states since 2002 have had on the table a comprehensive plan that offers a peace treaty and diplomatic relations if Israel will withdraw to its 1967 borders and resolve the return of Palestinian refugees, and Israel has never responded to the plan beyond calling it a “non-starter.”

It is misleading to talk about “mistakes on both sides.” Jews came from Europe and Russia and little by little took over Palestine, ousted or dispossessed the local Arab inhabitants and created an exclusivist “Jewish state,” as they call it. Sure, the local Arab inhabitants might have resisted differently, but to equate the “mistakes” of the two sides is to misrepresent what happened and what continues to happen today.

Hamas, whatever its vices, and I believe they are many, was freely elected by the Palestinian people of Gaza, which is what prompted to Israel to blockade the territory and trap the people there like so many rats in a cage. It is Israel, therefore, that has a “death grip” on the territory, not Hamas.

If anyone is bent on wiping anyone off the face of the earth it is Israel that is so bent on the Palestinians, as evidenced by the past 60-plus years of history. Palestinian or Arab bluster to similar effect is nothing but that, bluster, unsupported by any actions that could conceivably accomplish such a thing and unsupported also by the means to do it, in contrast to the supremacist Jewish state, which every day keeps families separated (a spouse from the West Bank cannot join a spouse from Gaza or even from Jerusalem), diverts water from Palestinian villages to Jewish settlements, bulldozes Palestinian homes, imprisons Palestinians as young 12 without charges, and now in front of the world, shells and bombs Palestinian apartment houses, school and hospitals, murdering Palestinians civilians by the hundreds. If the Jewish state has not physically annihilated the Palestinians as a people, it is only because the rest of the world wouldn’t tolerate it. “This was the predicament of Zionism from the day of its inception,” writes Ilan Pappe, the historian, “how to have the land without its native people in a world that no longer accepted more colonialism and ethnic cleansing.” You might say Israel is doing the best it can under the circumstances, practicing what Pappe calls “incremental genocide.”

“If the Jewish state has not physically annihilated the Palestinians as a people, it is only because the rest of the world wouldn’t tolerate it. ‘This was the predicament of Zionism from the day of its inception,’ writes Ilan Pappe, the historian, ‘how to have the land without its native people in a world that no longer accepted more colonialism and ethnic cleansing.’ You might say Israel is doing the best it can under the circumstances, practicing what Pappe calls ‘incremental genocide.’ ”

Also known as “shooting fish in a barrel.” Unfortunately the U.S. has today directed more military aid to Israel for just this purpose. And the rest of the world, while beginning to wake up to 3+ weeks of incremental genocide, is slow on its feet to actually say that, no less do anything about it. The rest of the world does tolerate it, or at least backs down and figures that if big, powerful U.S. backs Israel, that’s good enough for them. As the American-Arab Anti-Discrimination Committee (ADC) puts it: In order to stop the Israeli occupation of Palestine, we must first stop the Israeli occupation of Congress.

For Israel to say that Hamas is making them bomb children (and the rest of Gaza) is the moral equivalent of saying “The devil made me do it.” Israel is in Berserker mode, beyond reason. “After such knowledge, what forgiveness?” –TS Eliot

The game of trying to match Palestinian mistakes to Israeli mistakes, back and forth, has produced precious little in terms of anything resembling a solution or workable peace, and shows little promise of improvement.

You may believe, Carl, that HAMAS is something other than a terrorist organization focused on total and complete eradication of Israel, but I simply cannot reach a different assessment. Sad to suggest, HAMAS seems completely committed to achieving their unalterable objectives and prolonging this “struggle” to its bitter end, or die trying.

Unfortunately, they seem also unalterably committed to carrying the Palestinian society with them to either total victory, or utter destruction, with the latter running as a prohibitive favorite.

You acknowledge, “Their elected representatives in Hamas indeed have a crackpot charter”, and then suggest, “but that charter, loony as it is, is just bombast”. As long as the “crackpots” control the firing buttons on all those indiscriminate rockets, I’m afraid the “bombast” equals stark reality.

Sane people don’t want their entire future based on the rock throwing/dodging skills of crackpots, elected or otherwise. Hopefully the Palestinian people will ultimately recognize the folly of this approach and take the steps necessary to reinstate sanity to their leadership. Lets hope they do it sooner, than later.

I think it’s a mistake to characterize this as a conflict, since that implies equality. It’s a conflict only in the sense that the Spanish conquest of Mexico or Peru was a conflict. And there is nothing rare about it. It used to happen all the time that a stronger, more aggressive people would conquer and occupy or drive out a weaker people. To see such situations through the lens of “fault” is to miss what’s going on. Surely no one would say today that the America Indians shared the blame with white European settlers for their dispossession, even though they sometimes employed such atrocious methods of resistance as burning down settlers’ cabins and scalping the inhabitants. Nor would anyone blame today’s minority people for being driven off the rich coastal lands of Vietnam and into the mountains by the encroaching, aggressive Vietnamese a few centuries ago. It is simply what happened. One need not argue that one side is entirely virtuous, and certainly I do not argue that Hamas is virtuous, but it is a simple fact that the Palestinians have been conquered and dispossessed by a stronger and more aggressive people invading from Europe and Russia, that’s all.

You say I’m anti-Israeli, but I’m just laying out as honestly as I can what the actual situation is and what the actual history has been. It’s true, I disapprove of stronger people conquering weaker people and driving them off their land. I find it abhorrent, especially when they feel sorry for themselves into the bargain and misrepresent themselves as the victims. But that’s just my personal bias and doesn’t affect the historical truth. You could as well recognize the bald truth of Jewish conquest and still defend Israel, as the Israeli historian Benny Morris does, and to some extent the liberal Zionist author Ari Shavit, too, in his latest book, “My Promised Land.” But for God’s sake, don’t try to lay equal blame on the Palestinians for getting overrun.

Similar discussion is going on online between by my brother Nael and international friends and this is Nael’s response, which is a succinct statement that I share:

“Why I said the strong has option and probability for a solution?

If Israel continue with its present policy, of suppressing 4 million Palestinians with force, under occupation, and no commitment to borders, without human rights respected,hardly any social services, unreliable utilities, restrictions under siege, ethnic cleansing, land grabs, obviously there is no solution or improvement in the situation for any length of time in the future but will result in the increase of radicalism and more killing on both sides.
The problem is not the tunnels of Hamas nor their fireworks

You and I believe that a two state solution is the best option as most people in the world who are interested or familiar with the issue..
As we also know that the Israeli politicians are not working towards this option irrelevant of any given reason.

Let us just imagine if Israel announces a new policy based on a two state solution option confirming, as internationally understood by this option:
– 1967 borders are acceptable to Israel as all the Arabs and the world has accepted that, many years ago, beside few radicals.
– .in support of that, there will be no more settlements to be built on Palestinian lands
– The Palestinian refugees would be compensated financially
– Jerusalem would have a special status of being a combined international capital for Israel and the Palestinian state.
– Improve the living standards and economy of the Palestinians under occupation until a total agreement is reached.
– release few thousands Palestinians from Israeli jails who have no blood on their hands. Many are free thinkers and politicians.

This announcement,and approach would be a good basis for negotiation, would strengthen the moderate Palestinians, would end the radicals’ movements on both sides and would be a positive starting point for a reverse solution.

What I said has nothing to do with religion or nationality or origin but just pure logic looking for a possible option.
Most people are the same what ever their colour or religion is, they want a reasonable economical support to raise their families.

The other option is what we are seeing now and for the last 47 years.”

Anti Israeli is probably a poor word choice and it sounds dangerously similar to antisemitic, which I am not suggesting.

I am assuming you think there has to be a two state solution to this? I do not know if that is a given because your statements re: the Israelis being given the land illegally. And, you questioned whether they have a legitimate claim to the land.

Certainly, conquered and occupied is part of it, maybe the largest part. But, I think part of it is the notion that Israel does not have a right to exist.

One point I think we are in more agreement in on is the serious problem caused by settlers, especially those who are American citizens or funded by American citizens. If we are going to target American citizens for facilitating terrorism abroad, I do not think it fair to allow our citizens to be involved in the expansion of settlements – which are major impediment to peace in that region. The HBO news series “Vice” presented a pretty good piece re: this issue. Most interesting was the fact that many were not Christian fundamentalists.

I think it’s a misleading to talk about Israel’s “right to exist,” as Israeli leaders always do. It’s such an odd way of framing the situation. Jews from Europe and Russia came to Palestine, ousted the Arab Palestinians and established a Jewish state, as they proudly call it, and today they continue to displace or oppress the remaining Arabs in Gaza and the West Bank. When those people resist, they denounce them as terrorists and complain that they, the Arabs, don’t recognize Israel’s “right to exist.” Right to exist as what? An exclusivist conquering state in which Jews are guaranteed supremacy, have the right to immigrate (“return”) from wherever in the world they might live, and native-born Arabs are relegated to permanent inferiority, regarded as a “demographic threat,” subject to confiscation of their land? It would be like me breaking into your home, kicking you out, and then complaining that you don’t accept the situation. But in fact the Palestine Liberation Organization did accept the situation, most of it, in 1993, in Oslo, in exchange for the honor of being recognized as the legitimate representative of the Palestinian people and being allowed to set up a quasi-government in the West Bank, but it got them less than nothing. It got them a greatly accelerated Israeli program of confiscating their land and creating Jewish-only settlements mostly for foreign-born Jews who were aggressively recruited to live in them. For Jews to weep and wail that Palestinians don’t recognize their state’s right to exist is really a hoot, when the truth is that it’s Israel that does not recognize Palestine’s right to exist. It’s Israel that, especially since 1967, has relentlessly undermined any attempt at sovereignty on the part of Palestine and had an absolute fit when the United Nations upgraded Palestine to “non-member observer state” two years ago, if you remember that. So no, I don’t have any faith in the possibility of a two-state solution. I think it’s a chimera, since Israel works assiduously, with the construction of its infamous wall, for example, to make it impossible. The “one-state solution,” proposed by anti-Zionists, in which Arabs and Jews live as equals in a unified country, I think is even more of a chimera. Which leaves us right where we are.

Why does Hamas bring down predictable destruction upon their people? They have been driven to desperation by Israel. Please see the works of Norman G. Finkelstein, Ph.D. He has written published books available from orbooks.com and other booksellers. His website is normanfinkelstein.com. Please see also maxblumenthal.com. Max Blumenthal is a relative newcomer to the field. Both men are American Jews who dare to tell the truth that the American-Jewish establishment and the Israeli government are determined to suppress. For this, their careers have suffered.

Thank you, Jerry. I join you in recommending the works of Norman Finkelstein, especially “The Holocaust Industry” and “Beyond Chutzpah.” Also “Goliath” by Max Blumenthal. Blumenthal spoke recently in Albany, at the Unitarian Society, where he said that as a result of his work he is now “basically unemployable.” Finkelstein, for his part, was denied tenure at DePaul University, following a campaign against him by Alan Dershowitz, hit man for the Israel lobby. For more on that episode I humbly refer readers to my own book, “From D’burg to Jerusalem,” available from Amazon. While I’m on the subject, let me also recommend “Righteous Victims,” a thorough documentation of the Zionist conquest of Palestine, written by Benny Morris, an Israeli historian who despite laying out the awful truth remains a full-throated defender of Israel, and “The Ethnic Cleansing of Palestine” by Ilan Pappe, an Israeli historian who is not a defender or an apologist and who left the University of Haifa under pressure and now teaches at the University of Exeter, in England. For the Zionist perspective, I recommend “Exodus,” the huge 1960s best-seller by Leon Uris, surely the most odious, racist novel of all time and one that apparently influenced a whole generation of American Jews. Most of all, I recommend visiting East Jerusalem and the West Bank for yourself, as I did in 2012, and seeing with your own eyes. There’s no substitute.

Another UN created mess from a former British colony. The UN votes to establish Israel after WW2 and now the UN is filled with anti-semites that have forgotten their mandate of 75 years ago. More ignorant peacenik anit-semites are pictured above who will quote the UN up and down but have also forgotten it was the UN that created the Jewish state in 1947.

Israel has got to stop the settlers from taking land reserved for Palestinian use in previous treaties and Hamas has to acknowledge the right of Israel to exist, but of the two, the question of Israeli settlers illegally squatting on land that isn’t theirs is the issue that creates more instability in the situation.

We cannot ascribe to Israelis anymore right to their land based upon the fact they lived there thousands of years ago any more than we as United States Citizens will get on boats and go back to whatever nation our ancestors came from and turn the nation back over Native Americans (the scrub land we gave them for “reservations” doesn’t really count towards that). Both Israelis and Palestinians must recognize that each has much right to the land as the other.

As troubled as the whole Middle East has been, the situation was a lot more stable before we invaded Iraq.

Censorship, propaganda and scapegoating are the primary and most effective way to hijack the world’s most powerful democracy to get it to take one side of a generations-old sectarian conflict. It’s very telling when people who speak the truth are branded as anti-semites and silenced.

Following the comments from all sides, whether I agree with them or not. I’m learning /re-learning/ un-learning… Thank you Carl for taking the time to respond to everyone and thus keeping the discussion alive. My heart goes out to the innocent victims who have died waiting for the world to stop arguing and start acting with compassion.

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