didn;t mean to insult you just wondering what criteria you use when evaluating defense so that next time I watch a game I can understand what constitutes a good defensive player. Don't be shy on your definition you can list your primary secondary criteria etc block shots is just one aspect I want your naked definition.

Well, first and foremost, I go by watching a player. Since we're talking about big men, this is what I look for. Does he give up deep position, or stop the offensive player from getting where he wants to go? Does he work hard on that end of the floor? Does he stay focused? Does he move his feet or try and play defense with his hands, instead? Does he keep his man in front of him? Does he fall for a lot of fakes or does he play smart? Basically, does he make it difficult for his man to get good looks at the basket? And does he rotate when and where he is supposed to? Does he box out his man and get tough defensive rebounds to prevent the other team from getting second chance points? Does he protect the middle?

I look at advanced stats to basically confirm or contradict what I see on the court. Stats should never be used to create an opinion. Only to back up an opinion or make one question it.

Blocks and steals are probably the last thing I look at, because they can be incredibly deceiving, as I discussed earlier. Lots of players have averaged good bpg and spg without playing good defense.

And by the way, when you claim someone is too scared to respond, that's an attempt to insult them.

didn;t mean to insult you just wondering what criteria you use when evaluating defense so that next time I watch a game I can understand what constitutes a good defensive player. Don't be shy on your definition you can list your primary secondary criteria etc block shots is just one aspect I want your naked definition.

PnR defense is probably the most important aspect of defense in the NBA game. Bargnani is one of the worst PnR defenders I've ever seen. It's almost a guaranteed high percentage look when your two PnR defenders are Bargnani and Calderon.

bargnani is a lazy heartless punk, when he is motivated he can do alot of things i remember a close game last year vs the wiz where he blocked 4 shots in a row and got every rebound in sight.... but sometimes he goes in the game with a horrible mentality like to say " is this game over yet ? i got hot date tonight"

demar wont be our first option nor franchise player i think of him as a complimentary player i think we still need to search for that guy via draft.

That's what I'm saying, when AB's not playing , DD just disappears. At least Bargs tries to step up and be the man, tries to take over gams. it doesnt always work, but he gives it a shot. Demar just turtles yo.

he tries ....... and fails miserably on both ends each and every time. Bustani !!!

Well, I hear your points bro, BUT.....
DD is a starter. He as put in as a starter.

Bargs wasnt.

If DD is gonna be a starter on our team at one of the most important and hard to defend positions in the league, he has to be better, or else we are doomed for his "maturation" period

First off, Bargs started 68% of the games he played in his sophmore season (nba.com).
Secondly, I fully expect us to be a fairly bad team (doomed) for the next few seasons regardless of DD does. Anyone who thinks this team is going to contend next season is deluding themselves, I'm personally hoping we can maybe squeak in at 8th and I think I'm being super optimistic. It we make Demar our #1 scorer and build around him and Ed I think we can expect to wait quite a while before we would be considered a threat to the title since both have a tonne of developing to do.

"When Life gives you lemons, you clone those Lemons to make super lemons!"
-Scudworth

A good defensive player is a player who, you know, plays good defense. Lots of players have gotten steals and blocks while playing poor defense and visa versa. Joe Dumars was one of the greatest perimeter defenders in the last 30 years and he never averaged more than 1.1 spg. His teammate, Laimbeer, was an excellent defender, but has a career bpg average of 0.9.

Tyrus Thomas is a spectacular shot blocker, but has a ways to go before he'll be a good defender. Same goes for JaVale McGee.

In fact, the notion that shot blocking does not necessarily equal good defense is not a new or even remotely controversial opinion.

And I've never, ever changed my definition of a good defender, so I really don't know why you would say that other than to try and insult me. I've often talked about how you can be a good shotblocker and not a good defender.

Sorry to butt in your lively discussion here, i know we've had our back and forths in the past Tim and we've always come to terms in the end but i always notice you preach of defense as an integral part of the game and which i acknowledge, but you havent really defined "good defense" concretely. I dont think a definition of a good defensive player is "one who plays good defense". A block or shot block is clearly defined as "defensive player legally deflects a field goal attempt from an offensive player". And a steal is defined as "defensive player legally causes a turnover by his positive, aggressive action." A bad defensive play only results in 2 situations, a foul and a basket by the offensive team. Clearly, a block and steal constitute "good defense", i dont know how else you can quantify that.

I guess ill just help you out, a good defensive player or playing good defense is the ability to keep the offensive player infront of you, preventing him from scoring the basketball. I dont think Bargnani, Calderon, or Demar are bad defensive players per say, they are able to keep their man infront of them most of the time, what makes them "bad" is the Raptors is a bad defensive team, as a whole. Theyre unable to switch on screens, or play help defense. Even the best players or best "defensive" players as you point them out do get beat off the dribble from time to time, but what "masks" this fact is other players on their team are able to switch or provide help defense at appropriate times. The Raptors, most of the time, can not.

Like i always say, put Bargs beside a solid, defensive Center and he'll probably, and i say it again, PROBABLY, will be alright. Dirk has Tyson, Garnett had Perk, Bosh has Anthony, so on and so forth. But it doesnt stop there, you need to get a solid SF too SG and PG.

Sorry to butt in your lively discussion here, i know we've had our back and forths in the past Tim and we've always come to terms in the end but i always notice you preach of defense as an integral part of the game and which i acknowledge, but you havent really defined "good defense" concretely. I dont think a definition of a good defensive player is "one who plays good defense". A block or shot block is clearly defined as "defensive player legally deflects a field goal attempt from an offensive player". And a steal is defined as "defensive player legally causes a turnover by his positive, aggressive action." A bad defensive play only results in 2 situations, a foul and a basket by the offensive team. Clearly, a block and steal constitute "good defense", i dont know how else you can quantify that.

I guess ill just help you out, a good defensive player or playing good defense is the ability to keep the offensive player infront of you, preventing him from scoring the basketball. I dont think Bargnani, Calderon, or Demar are bad defensive players per say, they are able to keep their man infront of them most of the time, what makes them "bad" is the Raptors is a bad defensive team, as a whole. Theyre unable to switch on screens, or play help defense. Even the best players or best "defensive" players as you point them out do get beat off the dribble from time to time, but what "masks" this fact is other players on their team are able to switch or provide help defense at appropriate times. The Raptors, most of the time, can not.

Like i always say, put Bargs beside a solid, defensive Center and he'll probably, and i say it again, PROBABLY, will be alright. Dirk has Tyson, Garnett had Perk, Bosh has Anthony, so on and so forth. But it doesnt stop there, you need to get a solid SF too SG and PG.

I'm not saying that the actual block or steal is bad, but the fact that someone gets steals or blocks doesn't make them a good defensive player. If someone gambles a lot to get steals, then that's bad defense. And just because someone blocks 2 shots a game, doesn't mean they are playing good defense the rest of the time.

And you may have missed my last post where I went into more detail about what a good defensive player does.

As for Bargnani, I don't think there's any way you can call Bargnani anything but a poor defensive player. He doesn't put in a consistent effort, too often gives deep position, gets beat far too much, doesn't rotate well and doesn't seem to know where to be a lot of the time. He gives up too many offensive rebounds, doesn't get enough defensive rebounds, doesn't play the pick and roll well at all, will either over commit or under commit when he has to help. The notion that Bargnani is only a poor defensive player because of the system he plays in discounts the fact that neither Amir nor Davis play poor defense despite playing in the same system.

I think having a poor defensive team can highlight a players poor defense, but anyone who knows what to look for can see the difference between a decent defender on a bad team and a bad defender on a bad team. It's why I defended Bosh's defense last season when people said he was as bad as Bargnani. It's not that Bosh was a good defender, but he obviously knows what to do most of the time. Effort is not always there but he's not a liability on that end of the court.

Paul I give you props for getting over 105 thread responses man. It's great fodder to put one player down just to prop another. It almost feels like Demar and Andrea are playing in different teams the way you isolate the two.

“The saving of our world from pending doom will come, not through the complacent adjustment of the conforming majority, but through the creative maladjustment of a nonconforming minority.” - Martin Luther King

Paul I give you props for getting over 105 thread responses man. It's great fodder to put one player down just to prop another. It almost feels like Demar and Andrea are playing in different teams the way you isolate the two.

Balls, I never knew it was possible to laugh and cringe at the same time but your avatar has made the impossible possible.

Well, I hear your points bro, BUT.....
DD is a starter. He as put in as a starter.

Bargs wasnt.

If DD is gonna be a starter on our team at one of the most important and hard to defend positions in the league, he has to be better, or else we are doomed for his "maturation" period

I find it amusing how Bargnani can dog it for weeks and you'll step up to bat for him day after day yet all it takes is one bad game by DeMar and you're all over the guy. DeMar DeRozan is progressing faster than Bargnani did and in year two of his career he's making more of an impact than Bargnani did in year two of his career. At the end of the day DeMar is one of the best defenders and scorers on the team and he's only three years removed from high school.

Paul I give you props for getting over 105 thread responses man. It's great fodder to put one player down just to prop another. It almost feels like Demar and Andrea are playing in different teams the way you isolate the two.

I find it ironic that you have no problem writing full page upon page upon page of vitriol against Bargs...but...if someone criticizes Demar all hell breaks loose

I find it amusing how Bargnani can dog it for weeks and you'll step up to bat for him day after day yet all it takes is one bad game by DeMar and you're all over the guy. DeMar DeRozan is progressing faster than Bargnani did and in year two of his career he's making more of an impact than Bargnani did in year two of his career. At the end of the day DeMar is one of the best defenders and scorers on the team and he's only three years removed from high school.

I would tend to disagree, unless you can backup your claims of DD's "impact" with facts.
I think he has disappointed, and that all the hype around him blinds you to the facts, as it does to many fans.

Paul if you review the posts you discussed Bargnani in #1 and #5. The first few responses were all DD. You can't open a can of worms and then complain because they are crawling over the table. (BTW, is that an expression? If not, I would like to claim it).

As for my thoughts, you may not like them. I started a thread calling him out in November and have since lived to (thankfully) regret it.

There is no doubt he was drafted a project. I'm pretty sure every pre-draft write up on him had 'raw' and 'athleticism' all over it.

If you look at his development physically, he has been extremely impressive. His skinny little frame is starting to fill out and there is much more room for development.

If you look at his development offensively, last year he was a stand up 17-18ft jump shooter with an occassional lob dunk. This year he is showing great ability to play without the ball running off screens to get a look. His dribbling ability was awful last year so it is not hard to improve on it, but give him credit, he has - granted there is still much improvement needed. His jump shot has become very consistent and he has developed a post game - there have been a couple of moves that left my jaw hanging. He definitely needs to improve on his finishing but that comes back to his physical development, in my opinion, and he has in fact improved in this regard from last year. He has shown flashes of creating for others and I'm sure as he gains experience, he will get better - there is no reason shown to think otherwise. People knock him for the 3 point shot but that is something he can develop down the road. As long as his toe is on the 3 point line, he has shown the ability to consistently knock down the long range 2. His FT% is great at 80% and since Jan. 1 he is averaging around 85%. Considering his FGA totals have doubled and he is a much more focal part of the offense, shooting a little over 47% on the season is very impressive.

From a rebounding perspective, I would like to see more and think he can and should be able to get roughly 5 per game.

From a defensive standpoint, he has shown improvement. He is doing better getting around screens and not losing his man. He has shown an edge and a willingness to stand his ground. He is averaging a steal a game which is respectable. His defense still does need to get much better. The reason for optimism on this is his physical tools and his shown desire to work hard and get better.

Considering his touches he has a reasonable 1.7 TO per game. He has shown these tend to come in bunches for him but given the amount of time he has had the ball this year - and he is still developing his handle - that is very respectable.

In summary, what do I think of his progress? Excellent. I could not have asked for anything more out of him this season. I hope he continues to play as well over the last 9 games and shows true determination and integrity.

What do I think of the hype? I'm not sure he's been hyped. The comparison to Jordan in a thread recently is a bit much but, besides that, considering the strides he has made, he deserves every bit of compliments he has received. Like it or not, agree or not, he was a project coming out of college. If he can improve his defense and ball handling this summer like he has improved his mid range and overall offensive game this season, he will be very widely respected around the league - and rightfully so.

Do I consider him a franchise player? Absolutely not. I do not think he will ever develop in to one either. If I had to choose between trading Bargnani after what I've seen in 5 years and DD after what I've seen in 2 years, I would pick DD to stay.

Now that is an intelligent, fact based reply by one of the best moderators in the game, Matt52

I'm not saying that the actual block or steal is bad, but the fact that someone gets steals or blocks doesn't make them a good defensive player. If someone gambles a lot to get steals, then that's bad defense. And just because someone blocks 2 shots a game, doesn't mean they are playing good defense the rest of the time.

And you may have missed my last post where I went into more detail about what a good defensive player does.

As for Bargnani, I don't think there's any way you can call Bargnani anything but a poor defensive player. He doesn't put in a consistent effort, too often gives deep position, gets beat far too much, doesn't rotate well and doesn't seem to know where to be a lot of the time. He gives up too many offensive rebounds, doesn't get enough defensive rebounds, doesn't play the pick and roll well at all, will either over commit or under commit when he has to help. The notion that Bargnani is only a poor defensive player because of the system he plays in discounts the fact that neither Amir nor Davis play poor defense despite playing in the same system.

I think having a poor defensive team can highlight a players poor defense, but anyone who knows what to look for can see the difference between a decent defender on a bad team and a bad defender on a bad team. It's why I defended Bosh's defense last season when people said he was as bad as Bargnani. It's not that Bosh was a good defender, but he obviously knows what to do most of the time. Effort is not always there but he's not a liability on that end of the court.

I agree, you are not directly saying that a steal or block is bad, but you are implying it, when you say that a steal or block does not correlate to good defense, when in fact, it does. Youre not saying its bad, but you dont regard it as a good thing either. I do agree with your statement that getting a steal or block does not constitute being a good defensive player, but if you consistently get blocks and steals then you are a good defensive player. i think thats the word youve been missing. What im trying to instill is that steals and blocks are repertoires of a good defensive player. i dont think its coincidental that Howard has been back to back defensive player of the year and him averaging almost 3 blocks a game. although this award is given via media votes, only good defensive players are chosen as candidates for voting. When Artest won it, he avg a career best 2.1 stls, Wallace avg 2blks per game, and Howard 3 blks per game.

I think we've exhausted out arguments on Bargnani, you say he's a poor defender, i say he's just doesnt have the skill to be a good defender. Does he try, i believe so, but he probably is frustrated too that he doesnt have the ability to defend as people expect him to. Is that a liability? most definitely, but i dont regard it as a reason to crucify him. sad and unfair as it may sound but if they want to keep bargnani on the team, they have to mask his "inability" to defend. anyways, enough of Bargs because this is actually a demar thread.

i think people think demar has been a disappointment because of the expectations that was put on him at the start of the season. when bosh left, it may not be that obvious but the reigns was handed on to bargs and what bargs was to bosh before is what demar is now to bargs. and we all know the expectations everybody put on bargs alongside bosh. as per his natural progression goes in the NBA i dont think he's a disappointment but if you consider the "2nd option" tag, i guess i can see why. i for one am guilty of expecting him to average at least 20pts a game, 5 rebs and 5 asts. But that was my expectation, but im happy as to how he is playing now.