God is God of all of us if there is one and if he had to send a message it had to be in one of human languages and to one of the people that most suited his purpose.

First, you should know by now that I do not believe in the existence of a god, any god.

Just because arabs were given the final message in arabic does not make it foreign for the rest of the human world.

How convenient that god happened to give the final message to the Arabs. Not a novel idea, other religions did the same long before the Arabs.

However if people choose to confuse each other and want to keep hurting and killing each other that is their own choice which has nothing to do with God because God is telling them not to do so and sensible people and enjoy life together as a proper human community.

Oh, come on! Really?Here is Quran 8:60 Make ready for them all thou canst of (armed) force and of horses tethered, that thereby ye may dismay the enemy of Allah and your enemy, and others beside them whom ye know not. Allah knoweth them. Whatsoever ye spend in the way of Allah it will be repaid to you in full, and ye will not be wronged.What is the primitive illiterate Beduin in the 7th century to understand here?How about Quran 9:111? But enough of this.

There are 57 Islamic states according to OIC. Each and every one of them is dysfunctional, constant war with their neighbors and with internal unrests, poverty, lack of education, and you want this mess all across the planet?

Do you realise what would it take to drag 7th century Islam (1.6 billion Muslims) into the 21st century? Could it be done at all?

I do not think that anyone on this forum takes your efforts seriously.

Last edited by pr126 on Tue Sep 20, 2016 6:01 pm, edited 1 time in total.

As I explained to you earlier the quran does not make any man a standard to be followed independent of guidance of God in a matter one undertakes.

All Muslims know this is not true, so why are you saying it?

Mohammed is the Muslim’s role model in all things Islamic, just as Jesus is a Christian’s role model in all things Christian, you cannot separate the two from either belief system, they are mutually inclusive to each other.

Quran 33.21Ye have indeed in the Messenger of Allah a beautiful pattern (of conduct) for any one whose hope is in Allah and the Final Day, and who engages much in the Praise of Allah.

So then you contradict yourself, which proves you do not know fully the subject you are talking about.

On that basis all messengers of God and their faithful followers were and are an excellent example of following the guidance of God.

So how do Muslims find out how to be faithful to their religious script?By using Mohammed as their role model, because he was “excellent example of following the guidance of God.”

It can be easily deduced from your comment you do not want to address the violent verses contained in the Quran, which are then actioned by its prophet, Mohammed, which in turn gives all Muslims their full justification of using violence to propagate their faith.

You have never given any evidence whatsoever to prove the “deen”of Islam is conducive to peaceful conditions on earth towards humanity, neither have you addressed the violence Mohammed used against “unbelievers “throughout his reign of terror over them.

Like all Muslims you have an aversion of addressing the truth, which is, your faith is nothing more than a regurgitation of pre Islamic pagan practices, held together with 7th century Arabian tribal warfare, using a pagan idol’s alleged ramblings as its excuse to plunder, murder, enslave and deceive.

Islam is built on a basis of violent conquest of nations, its own history proves this to be the case, Islamic armies invaded countries to “proclaim Islam over all (the inhabitants existing) religion”, they attacked and fought those who defended their right to life, and enslaved the remaining women and children, "divinely mandated" by Allah

You are trying like all Muslims to defend the indefensible, but you will not succeed, the truth about this insidious faith is out, it is being proved to be the violent cult it is on a daily basis throughout the world today, just as it always has been.

Dear friends, some of you ask me to explain what is difference between deen of islam and mazhab of islam. It is very important that people realise or become aware of the fact that islam is a deen and not a mazhab.

Mazhab is simply put some make beliefs and some useless rituals invented by ruling elite, wealthy elite and mullahs or religious elite to make fools of weaker members of human population. They invented religion to protect their gains or interests against the weaker members of human population by using various tricks and mechanisms for confusing people. This is why they fund different versions of mazhab and promote them at every opportunity they can. This is why capitalism is enemy of humanity in this age. The elites try to control direction the way they want the world to be which is they should rule the world by using various tricks of the trade and mechanisms that secure their vested interests or personal gains.

Deen of islam on the other hand is revealed by God but why? I have explain why God created this world and why human beings are created by God. Man is top most creature of God the best God could create and he is supposed to evolve and develop from the simple state he is created in to a highly knowledgeable and creative state of existence that God has set for him as the top end of his development.

This is why God gave man a limited area of choice and a zone to experiment in and learn and do things till man is able to take care of himself and things upon which he depends for his survival the best he can in light of guidance of his creator so that greatness of God becomes obvious to man. Man is supposed to realise or become aware of greatness of God by looking at himself how great creator the man himself is being just a tiny little thing in this vast universe of God. Man has yet to accomplish much more that we can imagine just now.

Deen of islam is all about man managing this universe according to guidance of God for ensuring well being of humanity. This is why man has to take control of things in his own hand and not to depend upon God beyond a little help from his guidance. This is why deen of islam is not about people sitting on their back sides and praying to God for correcting things which go wrong due to doing of mankind themselves. God wants man to correct his own mistakes with a little bit help from guidance of his creator.

This is why there is no concept of God incarnation in deen of islam nor of any human saviour or miracles etc. Such ideas make deen of islam completely different from what different versions of religion are. This is why there are no concept like original sin in deen of islam or of atonement. People are created as babies not knowing anything to learn by experimenting with things. Human beings therefore make a lot of mistakes before they come to realise their mistakes and start correcting them. See how he learns to sit properly or stand properly and walk and run or talk properly etc etc etc. It is all part of God set program the way the universe is set by God to operate. If a human being does not experiment then he cannot learn anything at all and when one experiments one is bound to make plenty of mistakes at the start which become less and less in numbers as man grows and becomes experienced in handing things better and better. It is impossible for a human being not to make any mistakes at all during his lifetime because otherwise one cannot gain experience about things so one can never become expert of anything at all unless one is a created as a robot right from the start which human beings are not.

Problems with man start when he becomes knowledgeable and experienced yet fails to develop in things which can help ensure well being of humanity. This is where guidance of God and man must work together otherwise a proper human community cannot come about because people on their own can never find a solid basis for ensuring their own well being as a community.

Here deen of islam tells people to react to each other's rights and wrongs so that they could make each other realise what right or wrong they are doing to each other and how to get out of any wrongs so that that way they could push each other to see what God has to say about what they are thinking and doing and whether it is right or wrong and why that is the case. This is how guidance of God can help people become free of atrocities against each other. Not only that guidance of God can also prompt them to look for ways to making progress to prosper as well as to see how they can travel throughout the universe to see how great creator their God is. This is why God has provided people with things like raw materials and living things just like we provide our kids with toys to play with and learn. This is why human being experiment with already existing things then they try to copy them and then they try to go beyond that and create new things out of already existing raw materials and things. So man is not weak poor little thing as religious fools will have us believe rather God has put a huge potential in man to show greatness of God by seeing his own greatness being made obvious to him through his thoughts and actions. Man should realise this by seeing how he came about and what he turned into and what he is going to turn into in times to come. This is the way the quran makes perfect sense for those who have learned sense of making proper sense of things.

God is God of all of us if there is one and if he had to send a message it had to be in one of human languages and to one of the people that most suited his purpose.

First, you should know by now that I do not believe in the existence of a god, any god.

Just because arabs were given the final message in arabic does not make it foreign for the rest of the human world.

How convenient that god happened to give the final message to the Arabs. Not a novel idea, other religions did the same long before the Arabs.

However if people choose to confuse each other and want to keep hurting and killing each other that is their own choice which has nothing to do with God because God is telling them not to do so and sensible people and enjoy life together as a proper human community.

Oh, come on! Really?Here is Quran 8:60 Make ready for them all thou canst of (armed) force and of horses tethered, that thereby ye may dismay the enemy of Allah and your enemy, and others beside them whom ye know not. Allah knoweth them. Whatsoever ye spend in the way of Allah it will be repaid to you in full, and ye will not be wronged.What is the primitive illiterate Beduin in the 7th century to understand here?How about Quran 9:111? But enough of this.

There are 57 Islamic states according to OIC. Each and every one of them is dysfunctional, constant war with their neighbors and with internal unrests, poverty, lack of education, and you want this mess all across the planet?

Do you realise what would it take to drag 7th century Islam (1.6 billion Muslims) into the 21st century? Could it be done at all?

I do not think that anyone on this forum takes your efforts seriously.

Dear pr126, you are speaking out of ignorance about deen of islam but I need to complete my work on the quran first to manifest its true message rather than get involved with people one on one basis to explain to each of them things that I need to explain. If you and I live that long we will see how deen of islam makes perfect sense. All I can say is do not shut out things based upon your wrong notions about life and understanding of things instead keep working on making better and better sense of life and living and may be one day you will know things about deen of islam better than me by learning to uderstand the message in the quran properly.

So that is all you have to answer the overwhelming evidence thata) Islam was an invention by Mohammed to make him rich, powerful and to get him women.b) Islam turns people into supporters of an "us and them" mentality that in turn justified the most atrocious violence.c) Far from "guidance" Islam brought only misery and death

Evidence, however detailed and and however carefully presented, to you is "ignorance" and "shouting out". We are not in school and you certainly are nobody's teacher. You try to hide your own ignorance by refusing to answer people claiming to be too busy. What is the point you coming to a discussion forum if you will not engage in discussions?

Dear pr126, you are speaking out of ignorance about deen of islam but I need to complete my work on the quran first to manifest its true message rather than get involved with people one on one basis to explain to each of them things that I need to explain. If you and I live that long we will see how deen of islam makes perfect sense. All I can say is do not shut out things based upon your wrong notions about life and understanding of things instead keep working on making better and better sense of life and living and may be one day you will know things about deen of islam better than me by learning to uderstand the message in the quran properly.

Dear Mughal, I have known you for at least 10 years, and still remember you as a staunch critic of Islam, when our opinions of this religion was similar.

You were an ex-Muslim living in Glasgow if I remember correctly.In many of your posts which unfortunately lost forever, you have criticised the Quran verses and the religion.

Were you then ignorant of Islam and did you shut out things based upon your wrong notions about life and understanding of things?

You have reverted back to Islam for reasons best known to yourself.

But know this. You are lying to yourself.

Islam has been and always will be bad for humanity.Indeed, it is a savage ideology that is shameful for the whole of mankind. It has not brought a single good thing to humanity in its 14-century existence. What it did bring is war, slavery, piracy and 270 million slaughtered victims, still doing it presently, and will continue until Islam exist.

It is irredeemable. It cannot change, the Quran forbids it.

And if any change was even possible, it would not be Islam anymore. It would be something else. Certainly not what Muhammad has created.

However, in my opinion, even a change cannot be trusted, because just like a deadly virus, it could come back and continue the death march anew.

regards and all the best.

Last edited by pr126 on Thu Sep 22, 2016 12:21 pm, edited 1 time in total.

frankie wrote:Mughal: The hadiths quotes are given the classification as Sahih by your own people, which means that Muslims can emulate their prophets example with confidence, knowing that their scholars have done the work before them, classifying the reports of Mohamed's ways and example as "sound" and reliable.

Dear frankie, it is not enough for a person to say some quote is authentic but that quote must prove consistency with message of God which is more authentic because it is and was widely known to people always in comparison to any other words by anyone else. Moreover texts need to be properly interpreted before they could be used for or against. Since people have not managed to interpret the text of the quran properly how can I accept they interpreted the texts in the hadees books? This is why till someone like me interprets them properly they are useless. Yet other problem in this regard is that there are claims that they have been manipulated as well by rulers of the time so that makes it absolutely necessary that they are properly scrutinised as well before they are taken as authentic messages to be acted upon.

frankie wrote:And so your answer does not make any sense to those who put their trust in these reports, and have done so for centuries.

There way of authenticating reports does not make sense to me. I am not rejecting their isnaad as far as they make sense anything beyond that is editing or pure falsehood which all people of knowledge should reject not just me.

frankie wrote:Do you think Allah would allow his scholars to be in error when reporting the ways and example of his "perfect example for mankind, "which in turn would make anyone who read these alleged erroneous reports and put them into action, disobey Allah?

I do not just think but accept that human error are possible even in the copies of text of the quran however such human errors are natural and do not cause any problems. The problems are caused by deliberate changes people make for misleading readers. Such error can be caught by scrutinising a text carefully. Messengers of Allah were such people whom Allah chose out of his knowledge because he knew they will be able to deliver his message as it ought to be delivered. This is why there are no problems with actual text of the quran as I already explained in detail in my other posts. The deliberate editing or additions or omissions in hadis reports can be caught easily because they will contradict framework of deen of islam as clearly explained in the text of the quran. This is why people need to stop believing every nonsense in the name of deen of islam and instead they need to start working on these texts as I have explained and things will soon become clear.

frankie wrote:If Mohammed is given to be mankind's role model for all time, then the sahih hadiths quoted show Mohammed to be a very poor role model, as his actions prove him to be a tyrant, which then follows, the god that gave him his instructions to act this way must be a tyrannical god.

As I explained to you earlier the quran does not make any man a standard to be followed independent of guidance of God in a matter one undertakes. On that basis all messengers of God and their faithful followers were and are an excellent example of following the guidance of God. In the quranic context righteous people are those who ensure delivery of God given rights to mankind by organising and regulating themselves into an ummah. In doing so people of God will have to take things of those who have wrongfully taken away things of those who had them rightfully. You can ask people nicely but if they do not comply then force has to be used appropriately to do the job. I explained that in detail in my posts already. After all why do we need standing armies and police if we just need to sit and let people think and do as they please in order to harm or destroy humanity? That in itself proves there is nothing wrong in use of force provided the end is ensuring well being of mankind. The quran does not tell us anywhere that anyone is a role model unless one follows the God given guidance. If there is any verse in the quran of this kind please share. The quran tells us Abraham is an example just like Muhammad using exactly the same words but then it also tells us Abraham was made an example only because he followed guidance of God. When Abraham asked God for his offspring to be made leaders also for guiding the ummah, God replied they cannot be leaders if they go off the right track. A clear proof that only those people can be people of God who follow his guidance.

As for God being a tyrant because Muhammad was, is not the right way to think because God is God and can never be a tyrant. If God cannot be a tyrant because he is a knowledge able wise being then how could any of his messengers be? This is the right way to think. Since muhammad is his messenger so he could not have done things people attribute to him out of their proper context. The real question is why did people misinterpret and misrepresent the quran and attribute falsehood to Muhammad? They must have had some advantage in doing so. I have explained how rulers, money lenders and mullahs are one and the same thing behind the curtains.

I have explained clearly in great detail why there has come about corruption in the world as well as how to end it. However till people become educated enough to understand what I have explained it is not possible to get rid of corruption from this world.

The main thing mankind need to become aware of is, only and only deen of islam can help mankind become corruption free. Unfortunately most people in the world are ignorant, illiterate, uneducated, untrained, unskilled for reasoning out things properly and the reason is because that is the way human beings are born but only some of them make effort to survive the rest simply are gotten rid of by nature because they live as a useless people ie they do not have or fail to develop what it takes to survive in this world.

Those who survive even most of them do not bother to be something one day rather they just live their lives aimlessly and the reason for that is they do not want to go beyond their comfort zone in which they feel secure. This inhibiting hesitation needs to be overcome by them which they cannot without someone or something forcing it upon them.

Those who want to be something one day they only learn things that make them what they want to be and that is it so they too do not go beyond the target they set for themselves.

It is very important to realise there are only two ways people can live in this world a)being driven by their psychological drives and their sets of circumstances and b)by planning ahead.

Most people survive at the mercy of nature so they only get up when they get kicked on their back sides otherwise they are not bothered to do anything at all for sake of their own betterment. This is why you will have seen people who were getting what they needed to survive through others they did not bother to do anything because they did not see the need for doing so. If anything they looked for ways of passing their time.

This was very much obvious in houses where one person went abroad to earn a living and the rest of the family lived on it. Their families did not make much effort to better themselves in education because they saw education as a way to get a job to earn a living which they were already getting. Not only that if a child went to school and learned whatever he could he did not bother to try and educate the rest of his family or people and those who tried they got a negative response from those whom they tried to help.

In short most people never saw any value in education itself they always tied it to the idea of making a living. So this is the mindset of most human beings therefore their wrong attitude towards education and life and living and that is why such people end up with the behaviour they show towards education. This is the reason communism based way of life failed because people could not back it up with equally powerful ideology in order to convince people to live a worthy or purposeful life.

In order to combat this mindset an idea for giving people some incentives was developed so that people who wished for a better life could work for it and that is the basis for capitalism. However when capitalism put people on the track to success it too failed to work because then people developed a mindset that if I work then what I get is mine because I worked for it.

Not only that when life became hard for those who missed the boat or were left behind they began to react against capitalism and its promoters and beneficiaries.

Since communism wants community based system and capitalism wants money based system they both ended up fighting each other and that fight has not ended yet and it can never end for so long as there are people who are rich and there are people who are poor. So long as humanity remains divided this way it cannot have peace. It is because rich do not let poor live in peace and poor also have no choice but to react and make life hell for the rich also as much as they can.

This is why rich people or capitalists brought in religion to try to create a safety valve in order to try to release excessive pressure that builds up in a human population. By way of religion rich people give a token help for useless people of society in order to keep them at bay to remain safe from their wrath. This is why religion is ritualism and minimum alms for the poor the rest is for the rich and wealthy to enjoy. This is why communists called religion opium of the masses.

If you could understand the link between communism and capitalism and religion you will realise why communists are against religion and why capitalists support religion. It is because communists see religion as a problem created for them by capitalists while capitalists know if they do not support religion then poor people of the world will tear them apart in no time for their abuses of poor people throughout the world.

One should therefore be able to see none of these can work on its own because they are brought about for all the wrong reasons. If humanity will continue living in confusion about them then it will remain in the same situation for as long as they do not bring about something different that works better than them all on its own and that is where in comes deen of islam.

What is deen of islam and why it is what it is or how it can be implemented etc etc, is all explained in detail in my writings here and there as well as on the jangforum.net in discover islam section to which I have already given links.

This will explain to anyone why mulim mullahs are funded by jews, christians and hindus etc and why muslims are allowed to build mosques etc so that thereby muslims could be kept confused through mullahs and for so long as muslims are kept confused the message of the quran can remain out of reach of mankind so the rich and wealthy are secure because there is not going to be any popular uprising against them throughout the world due injustices and cruelty that people are inflicting upon each other. It is because deen of islam is the only way of life that makes perfect sense as I have explained it in detail.

frankie wrote:No other prophet of the Bible God used violence to carry out God's instructions, they used word of mouth only, just as Jesus did.

Mohammed claimed to be a prophet in line with all previous prophets, but Mohammed did not use the same method as previous prophets to preach his message, he disobeyed the very God he claimed to represent, by using methods which would be harmful towards humanity, he used war as his opus operandi.

Any man calling himself a prophet of the Bible God must obey the commands of this God, but Mohammed disobeyed them, which means he worked for Satan who is in opposition to Yahweh,the Bible God,and Satan as the Bible tells us, is the author of lies and deception, who hates humanity and wants his entire destruction.

Your problem is not quotations but lack of interest in finding out the truth by studying things properly. It takes years to try to know anything at all because humans are born ignorant as babies and that makes them take time in knowing things properly even if they decide to know them by finding out things. This is why I cannot answer your query till I have the time to explain things as I understand them in other works in their proper contexts. If I am able to explain the quranic text why I cannot do the same for hadees books when it comes to that but life is short so it will help people if they too try their best to make sense of things for themselves. This is why I explained the way to do things so that people do not depend on me or others in this regard. All one has to do is be honest to oneself and be determined to learn things properly. One can only do so much and if one does things as one should then God will be well pleased with a person and it matters not what one claims to be in one's arrogance based ignorance. God calls such people worst than animals even though they claim to be human beings who deliberately go off the track for their vested interest ignoring proper study of the message of God out of their arrogance and haughtiness.

You need to realise that basis for deen of islam is very different from Christianity or Hinduism etc. There is no concept of original sin in deen of islam or its atonement. Not only that in deen of islam it is people who are suppose to run this world not God. God is only suppose to guide mankind how to run it that is why the quran is the way it is. This is why a muslim is not suppose to wait for supernatural intervention of God like chrisitians to put things right miraculously when they go wrong. This is why muslims who have taken their beliefs from christians are as confused as christians. Hindus also have similar beliefs that when things go wrong God incarnates in some form and comes to earth and sorts things out and then his incarnation ends in some way. The reason for such beliefs coming into muslims is very simple ie the people who turned muslims throughout the world already had a background so many of them brought their make beliefs and useless rituals with them which became part of muslim ummah and that is how deen of islam was turned into a mazhab when those who had proper knowledge of the quran gradually decreased in their number in the ummah after the death of the prophet when ummah became swamped by foreigners whose hosts could not educate them to proper deen of islam.

This is why you will see mullahs preaching hinduism or christianity etc in the name of islam. Muslims believe a lot more nonsense about jesus than chrisians and lot more hinduism than hindus. Look at people who expect second coming of jesus or imaam mahdi etc. Look at people who claim to be muslim yet worship graves. All this is done by muslims in the name of deen of islam because they do not know the quran and the mullahs are ignorant about the message in the quran. If anything they try to justify all sorts of make beliefs in the name of the quran and deen of islam. When I challenge such people I get no answers to my questions from any mullahs or any mullah follower.

If you have read my posts I have explained in detail what pillars of deen of islam are all about. Not what mullahs claim them to mean. Deen of islam is basically about building a proper human community called ummah in the kingdom of God ie the universe. Once people learn how to be an ummah and become an ummah then all will be fine as God has promised and we are promised very clearly in the quran that ummah will come about regardless how hard the opponents of this idea try to oppose or stop it from coming about. It is people who will bring it about using guidance of God not God. If it was up to God to bring about an ummah he will have done it in no time but that was not his plan nor his purpose for creation of this universe and things and people in it.

regards and all the best.

Oy vey not again.Dear mughal, can't you keep it shorter please? Smoke is coming out of the servers

our problem is not quotations but lack of interest in finding out the truth by studying things properly. It takes years to try to know anything at all because humans are born ignorant as babies

if you think you leaned the truth keep it to yourself, as long as you dont become a violent child molesting thug like Mo, who claimed to be guided by allah before every disgusting action of himself its OK.

Dear pr126, you are speaking out of ignorance about deen of islam but I need to complete my work on the quran first to manifest its true message rather than get involved with people one on one basis to explain to each of them things that I need to explain. If you and I live that long we will see how deen of islam makes perfect sense. All I can say is do not shut out things based upon your wrong notions about life and understanding of things instead keep working on making better and better sense of life and living and may be one day you will know things about deen of islam better than me by learning to uderstand the message in the quran properly.

Dear Mughal, I have known you for at least 10 years, and still remember you as a staunch critic of Islam, when our opinions of this religion was similar.

You were an ex-Muslim living in Glasgow if I remember correctly.In many of your posts which unfortunately lost forever, you have criticised the Quran verses and the religion.

Were you then ignorant of Islam and did you shut out things based upon your wrong notions about life and understanding of things?

You have reverted back to Islam for reasons best known to yourself.

But know this. You are lying to yourself.

Islam has been and always will be bad for humanity.Indeed, it is a savage ideology that is shameful for the whole of mankind. It has not brought a single good thing to humanity in its 14-century existence. What it did bring is war, slavery, piracy and 270 million slaughtered victims, still doing it presently, and will continue until Islam exist.

It is irredeemable. It cannot change, the Quran forbids it.

And if any change was even possible, it would not be Islam anymore. It would be something else. Certainly not what Muhammad has created.

However, in my opinion, even a change cannot be trusted, because just like a deadly virus, it could come back and continue the death march anew.

regards and all the best.

Dear pr126, I was very active against religion then I am still against religion but that is because I never stopped learning like yourself. Just pay attention to my reasoning of things and my questions for the religious and the secular alike. I am not bashing religion just forsake of it but with reasons that even atheists cannot counter.

For example, can any atheist throughout the world deny possibility of existence of God on basis of logical consistency? No. If you can please explain. If you cannot then you need to explain to yourself possibility of existence of God in light of real world realities. Can you? No. This is how atheism becomes a wrong idea.

Similarly there has to be a logically consistent explanation for the possibility of existence of God from those who believe in possibility of existence of God but do they have one? Yes, they do. However this explanation does not and cannot come from the religious crowd because they misinterpret and misrepresent the God sent scripture rather it will come from people who look at revelations of God in context of a way of life that is advised by God. What is special about this context? It explains the message in the book of God in a logically consistent way. This is why existence of God becomes a proven truth rather than just a possibility.

People will take time to make sense of what I have stated provided they want to and make effort to do so but only time will tell.

I have clearly shown flaws in arguments of atheists for nonexistence of God as well as explained clearly how to look at the God sent scripture. Rest is up to knowledgeable people to prove it for themselves. So ignorant people are neither here nor there so they can think and do what they like till they become human beings by learning sense of making proper sense of things and make proper use of their knowledge to ensure well being of mankind.

I have been changing my mind always because I want to remain logically consistent at least within my own mind so I do not follow anyone blindly. This is why I can argue my case successfully which blind followers of atheism or secularism or religion etc cannot do. I had to work very hard over a very long period of time to prepare myself by learning sense of how to make proper sense of things. This is why if something does not make sense to me I do not hold onto it but try to move on but keep my mind open in case I am proven wrong later. I have no problem with reconsidering the same claim over and over if I have to in order to find truth because any alternative explanation could prove correct and we do not know who may bring that to our attention or when. People who show loyalties to wrong concepts do not succeed but people who try to keep themselves right never fail.

The text of the quran was just nonsense for me as it is for you not because it was in actual fact but because I did not know the way to make proper sense of it. Now that I have found the proper way to make proper sense of it, it makes perfect sense to me and whenever anyone will learn the way I have explained in detail and will start looking at the text of the quran afresh it will start making sense to that person as well provided one has prepared oneself well for this purpose.

All this will become obvious to people once my work on the quran is complete and is available for people to examine. It is going to take time and I hope I remain healthy enough to complete it. It is a huge task for an old man but I am happy that I am doing it and that is going to be my best contribution for the humanity.

Mughal wrote:For example, can any atheist throughout the world deny possibility of existence of God on basis of logical consistency? No. If you can please explain. If you cannot then you need to explain to yourself possibility of existence of God in light of real world realities. Can you? No. This is how atheism becomes a wrong idea.

Ah, but Mughal, can any deist say where God came from? Being unable to answer this is how deism becomes a wrong idea.Meanwhile, we can only talk in probabilities since proving a negative can be impossible. I put it to you that there being a god is no more likely than Bertrand Russell's china teapot orbiting the sun out of sight.https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russell%27s_teapot

‘Hindus and Muslims belong to two different religious philosophies, social customs and literary traditions. They neither intermarry nor eat together, and indeed they belong to two different civilisations which are based mainly on conflicting ideas and conceptions.’ Muhammad Ali Jinnah

Islam has one (among many other) commands, which is domination over all others by the Muslim male. Everything else is in the eyes of Allah / Muhammad - second class. Women, unbelievers, and all living things are to be dominated in the name of Allah and Muhammad, which is one and the same.

This is what Muslims are promised, commanded to do in the name of the deity and Muhammad.

The whole planet and everything it contains is by right (of Allah /Muhammad) for the Muslim male to rule over.

No Muslim will want to relinquish that Allah mandated right.

And any change to this is seen as blasphemy, punishable by death.

You are saying that the mullahs (ulema) are distorting the true meaning of the quran, hadits, sunna. Not so. It is you who is doing that because you are ashamed of what Islam has brought to the world in its 14 centuries of existence.You are still deceiving yourself, no one else.

Mughal wrote:For example, can any atheist throughout the world deny possibility of existence of God on basis of logical consistency? No. If you can please explain. If you cannot then you need to explain to yourself possibility of existence of God in light of real world realities. Can you? No. This is how atheism becomes a wrong idea.

Ah, but Mughal, can any deist say where God came from? Being unable to answer this is how deism becomes a wrong idea.Meanwhile, we can only talk in probabilities since proving a negative can be impossible. I put it to you that there being a god is no more likely than Bertrand Russell's china teapot orbiting the sun out of sight.https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russell%27s_teapot

Dear Fernando, yes, I know a negative is impossible to prove but that is why I am talking about positive and explaining how that can prove that God does exist by way of learning how to understand the scripture in light of real world realities.

To make my point a bit clearer, let us raise a question, why do atheists believe there is no God when they cannot prove their claim? The only answer is because they think all allegedly God sent scriptures are false and manmade. But the question is, why they think even the true God sent scripture is actually manmade? It is because the scripture has been misunderstood by mankind due to lacks or gaps in their knowledge and then it is misinterpreted and misrepresented deliberately for furthering personal interest by those who wanted things that way in order to confuse other people.

The question is, why then atheists knowing full well that God sent scripture needs special attention and learning due to language problems between God and mankind did not study the scripture as it ought to be studied for finding out the truth about it? Why is this point of vital importance? It is because unless mankind know the way to understand the God sent scripture they can never understand. This being the case their saying that God sent scripture is false amounts to devastating lie against God as well as humanity. This is why humanity is paying dearly for its lack of interest in knowing the word of God for its guidance. Some lies are highly harmful and destructive. Generally less educated people take it for granted that philosophers and scientists are highly educated people therefore if they are saying the God sent scripture is manmade then it must be the case. This is why there is no difference in my view between mullahs and philosophers and scientists and all other who talk nonsense without actually knowing about things.

Even philosophers and scientists are confused about definition of proof not just mullahs. They do not understand the fact that it is the explanation of something that is logically consistent which is the proof. If we saw an accident happening right before ourselves that accident needs to be explained using words and their meanings to turn it into a proof. If we do not have any explanation about facts then we cannot prove anything about them even if we can see them before our eyes. Till we knew how to explain the functioning of universe we did not know how to prove it. So it is language and its proper understanding that is needed for making right decisions about things or concluding any opinions. After all what is hypothesis? It is just an explanation about something that is yet to be discovered in some sense for a known reason or purpose. A theory is simply put an explanation of known or discovered or yet to discovered facts. An explanation becomes a law when we find something always happens or functions or works the same way. This is why to dismiss God sent scripture on basis of baseless grounds is not the right way to look at this issue or case.

Only and only such people can dismiss something as false who have learned sense of making proper sense of things and then they use their good sense to examine something for its truth and then they are able to explain as to why they are dismissing something very clearly. Such works have not been done on the quran either by people who claim to be muslims are those who claim to be nonmuslims. Just as by saying I am a theist one cannot become an actual true theist likewise one cannot become a true atheist till one knows what one is actually talking about. Mankind at the moment are utterly confused and they will remain confused till they do what needs to be done to come out of this confusion. That is the time when humanity will find it self a leader in form of the quran as I have after very, very hard work on the quran in light of real world realities. This is why my explanation of the universal model is better than anyone that I know of so far. If anyone will come up with a better explanation I will have no problem accepting that explanation because I have no loyalty to anyone but God and humanity. I will never be on the side of those who go against God or humanity because I know better than such people.

God did not come from anywhere he was always there. Rationally speaking creatures cannot create themselves therefore we have no choice but to suppose existence of God and by God I mean an uncreated being who always existed with all the properties a creator needed for creating this world. It is better explanation to accept existence of a God than try to explain existence of the creation any other way. We cannot supposed the matter was always there or it created itself because then we also need to qualify or attribute matter with all qualities of a God or creator so we end with something like God instead of God so I do not see any sense in that. Of course if we could ever prove that things created themselves then I have no problem with getting rid of idea of existence of God but I do not see that happening ever according to what I know so far. God is the only idea that makes sense or better sense than any other idea.

This sense is backed up by the information that I find in the quran which explains things about real world realities in the best possible way this is why if we take the creation of God and the revelation of God and interlace them in a complementary way then we end up with huge bank of real knowledge that can help us exist in a much better way than we human beings have been living in this world.

regards and all the best.

Last edited by Mughal on Fri Sep 23, 2016 1:37 pm, edited 1 time in total.

And also, when you can prove something you know it, you don't believe it.

But a believe must, at its minimum, not contradict known facts. To believe that the moon is made from cheese is silly given the fact you can go, see and touch a moon rock. To believe the moon was once a part of the earth is reasonable, but not entirely proven.

By its nature a belief cannot be proven. However, there should be perhaps some "evidence" suggesting the belief COULD be true, and it is stupid to believe something to be true if we know it is not.

SO Mughal, where does that leave you with all that stuff you claim you believe about Islam?

Mughal wrote:To make my point a bit clearer, let us raise a question, why do atheists believe there is no God when they cannot prove their claim? The only answer is because they think all allegedly God sent scriptures are false and manmade. But the question is, why they think even the true God sent scripture is actually manmade? It is because the scripture has been misunderstood by mankind due to lacks or gaps in their knowledge and then it is misinterpreted and misrepresented deliberately for furthering personal interest by those who wanted things that way in order to confuse other people.

Ah, Mughal, you've got it back to front. Atheists don't believe there is no god because the scriptures are wrong. They believe the scriptures are wrong because there is no god.

‘Hindus and Muslims belong to two different religious philosophies, social customs and literary traditions. They neither intermarry nor eat together, and indeed they belong to two different civilisations which are based mainly on conflicting ideas and conceptions.’ Muhammad Ali Jinnah

Prior to even getting to theism and atheism, mughal has go show us why he think islam is good idea as practiced by mohamed ,his companions and early music ms. So far he failed pathetically to answer any of the relevant questions

let us raise a question, why do atheists believe there is no God when they cannot prove their claim?

Let me reply with a question.

Why do theist believe there is a god, when they cannot prove their claim?

Dear pr126, there is proof for existence of God but because proof means the best explanation of facts people need to educate themselves to the level where at they could understand the proof. This is why I am bringing in the question of language and helping people to realise problems which need our attention. Till we pay needed attention to things I have pointed out things cannot change as they ought to. Asking for proof and then sitting tight is not the way to genuine inquiry about the truth rather one ought to get on with what one is supposed to do in order to see the proof and how it works. Nobody can learn anything unless one decides to learn and that is the main problem that people talk but do not do what they need to do. The proof of God's existence is his creation and his revelation but how many of us human beings really know or are bothered to know about them? Human beings have been here for thousands of generations yet we are still living confused lives after all that time and the case will remain the same unless we start realising we need to discover truth about creation and revelation if we want real change in our lives for the best. So we must pay attention to human literacy, education and training so that people could become thinkers and doers of things that need to be done.

manfred wrote:And also, when you can prove something you know it, you don't believe it.

But a believe must, at its minimum, not contradict known facts. To believe that the moon is made from cheese is silly given the fact you can go, see and touch a moon rock. To believe the moon was once a part of the earth is reasonable, but not entirely proven.

By its nature a belief cannot be proven. However, there should be perhaps some "evidence" suggesting the belief COULD be true, and it is stupid to believe something to be true if we know it is not.

SO Mughal, where does that leave you with all that stuff you claim you believe about Islam?

Dear manfred, word belief simply means acceptance of something in some sense in some way for some reason or purpose. If a person asks another outside of his home, is your father at home and the other person replies, yes , I believe so. It could be because the person knows for sure that his father is at home or that he thinks he should be home for some reason known to him. So word believe does not necessarily mean just a baseless guess or make belief. This is why what I believe is either a supposition or evidence based belief. In any case it is not possible for human beings to inquire about anything without first supposing something so that investigation could start to prove the supposition or assumption or hypothesis or theory etc. This is why we must first suppose existence of God and then start collecting evidences and then try and explain them the best we can. That is how we end up with a proof for or against our supposition. This is how all investigations work. You cannot do anything properly without first setting up a target. Once you set the target then you work with respect to that target. I remember explaining all this in detail in one of my posts on this forum.

This is why we must start with assumption that there is no God but since we cannot prove a negative therefore we start looking for evidences for existence of God. Since evidences for existence of God can only and only come from creation and revelation therefore we must try our best to make proper sense of them both with respect to each other. This is why for so long as we are not educated sufficiently for this purpose we cannot reach any genuine conclusion about existence of God. Being born ignorant and needing time to learn things does not allow us to conclude there is no God. If anyone says so he is simply demonstrating his ignorance and foolishness. This is why my standpoint that God exists unless we have proof otherwise and we do not have any proof otherwise so far.

In order to bring in a conclusive proof in this regard one has to study the revelation in light of real world realities because without help of genuine revelation from God this issue cannot be solved conclusively and that is why I undertook study of the quran and as anyone who has eyes can see my points I am succeeding day by day in explaining the quran on basis of a solid foundation. It is going to take time for me to complete my work but it is going to be something highly worthwhile if I managed to complete it. I am not asking anyone to take my words for granted but to go ahead and investigate the quran the way I have and see what you get.

Mughal wrote:To make my point a bit clearer, let us raise a question, why do atheists believe there is no God when they cannot prove their claim? The only answer is because they think all allegedly God sent scriptures are false and manmade. But the question is, why they think even the true God sent scripture is actually manmade? It is because the scripture has been misunderstood by mankind due to lacks or gaps in their knowledge and then it is misinterpreted and misrepresented deliberately for furthering personal interest by those who wanted things that way in order to confuse other people.

Ah, Mughal, you've got it back to front. Atheists don't believe there is no god because the scriptures are wrong. They believe the scriptures are wrong because there is no god.

No I did not dear Ferdando rather it is you who got it back to front for whatever wrong reason you have in your mind about God, his creation and revelation. But we are all free agents to have our own ideas regardless how baseless they may be.

regards and all the best.

Last edited by Mughal on Sat Sep 24, 2016 5:24 am, edited 2 times in total.