I was considering after watching the news this evening the kind of hell that our Japanese friends are enduring, especially those in the North. The death toll is expected to exceed ten thousand. Compounding that is the potential for a revisiting of radioactive particle and direct radiation induced diseases, especially for children who survived the ravages of their recent multiple earthquakes, and resultant tsunami, only to be dosed with the fallout from the reactor hydrogen explosions and rod storage fires.

The question always arises, Why? Of course, until the scientific concept of Plate Techtonics was formulated in the field of Geological Sciences nobody had any real idea of what was going on, and folks superstitiously conjured up angry gods, and karmic consequences for individuals and even entire societies. Our search for explanations reflects our darker thoughts, hatreds, and fears. For example, Jews were for years called "Christ Killers" by the Christians as late as the nineteen forties and fifties by my memory, and it wasn't until Vatican II Council that Catholic leaders even acknowledged that Jews could go to heaven. Ironically it turned out that the same Catholic Hierarchy has since created an immense karmic debt for themselves, people thinking that there may be in fact such a thing as group kamma. For the exact same reason some think that The Tibetans were attacked by the military forces of Red China resulting in millions of them being killed. Then there is the not so irrational hatred of the Jews by the Palestinians, by Hesbullah, and by The Muslim Brotherhood. Just recently a Christian community gathered to shout hateful epithets to family and friends, mourners , when their son and school mate was brought home in a body bag to be given a family funeral at a local church. Consider also that thousands of innocent Americans died in the 9/11/2001 attack, resulting in tens of thousands of young men, women, innocent adults, not so innocent adults, fighters and innocent bystanders, those wanting only to be of service to their country to die, or be maimed for life psychologically and physically. Such as these endured and are to this day still enduring hellish circumstances...........all because of mental factors which resulted in violent actions, which in turn created a literal hell realm right here on Earth for them and those around them. Mothers and fathers grieve for their lost children and ask, “Why”. Religious practitioners produce only inadequate and largely inaccurate explanations for the absurdities of sincere believers slaughtering each other and then ask their concept of a god "Why?" Answering only that “It is god’s will!”, or “God works in mysterious ways!”.....when the answer is so simple, as Buddha put it: "Violence leads only to more violence."

I have found in my almost sixty-seven years on this planet that there are many doors to such hell realms, and none of these doors are locked. All it takes to for each one of us to open any of these doors is an attachment to the delusion of self, a false belief, an irrational idea that we are somehow different from one another. Such delusions sometimes begin with an idea that our thoughts, views, and perspectives are somehow superior to those of others. We see that on online opinion forums and blogs constantly, when our individual false-egos raise their ugly heads with some sense that a personal violation of our delusional selves has taken place. So a perceived insult results in a retort. A retort is exchanged for a self-righteous volley of insults and rude comments, which then give rise to us harboring ill feelings towards those perceived to have somehow insulted, demeaned or, in some other way harmed our delusional selves.

Buddha taught us, "Violence leads only to more violence." It is true of violence in the play yard. It is true of violence on the battlefield. It is true of rude abuse in public forums. It is true on the subway. It is true during personal exchanges on online forums. In this way we easily open a door and create our own current and future hell realms.

To understand, verify and validate this concept, as we were advised to do in Buddhas Charter of Free Inquire, The Kalama Sutta, all we have to do is to look at how our own personal hells were created by us, and we will come to grips with the reason “Why?” hell realms arise around and within us. It is because such hell realms are of our own personal creation through our own personal acts of violence.

Buddha explained the solution in The Angulimala Sutta to a serial killer: "Stop!" ...and, "The only way to stop is to stop." “It is not enough to just want to stop.” “It is not enough just to plan to stop.” “The only way to stop is to stop.” Which requires that we ask ourselves a question: "Have we stopped?" If not, then we must examine and reflect thus, “Do we want to stop?” If not, perhaps we enjoy being in hells and being responsible for creating little hell realms wherever we go. Perhaps we are addicted to the feelings and the power that comes along with creating hells for ourselves. If so, the consequences of our actions are very easily predicted, and we may well deserve exactly what we get as a result.

As if it is not bad enough that we damage ourselves with our destructive violent intentional actions or inactions, the problem is as dear friends rightly pointed out, there are innocents around us who always suffer collateral damage, damages which almost always leave life-time scars and fill them with anxiety at first, fear, terrors, and eventually hatreds, which in turn results in resolve; that is resolve to even the score; what we in the Italian community call "La Vendeta!".

There is a Biblical quotation which I first heard spoken by a Russian safety engineer, a coworker, where I was employed in Rochester, New York: "Death and destruction to the fourth generation!" I don't remember the exact Biblical chapter and verse, but the idea was that god understood that if we hope to solve our problems with violence, we need to kill up to the fourth generation of those with whom we are engaged in war, otherwise there will be retribution. "Violence leads only to more violence."

Hence, Buddha's advisory to stop.The United States is engaged now in three wars. It is true that these were not of our own choosing. Those who chose to act against The U.S.A. with violence are discovering the consequences of attempting to solve their issues with violence perpetrated against the most powerful military force “ever”, and the result is children coming home in body bags, and children along with their entire families being killed in their own home villages, simply because of an attempt to end violence with violence.Discussing this a good friend wrote to me: “Write your congressman.”…which I did.

But even more important than writing our government officials, it seems to me that if we really want to destroy our personal hells, we have to stop being violent ourselves. And, we are the only ones who can do that.

What Makes an Elder? :A head of gray hairs doesn't mean one's an elder. Advanced in years, one's called an old fool.But one in whom there is truth, restraint, rectitude, gentleness,self-control, he's called an elder, his impurities disgorged, enlightened.-Dhammpada, 19, translated by Thanissaro Bhikkhu.

Ron-The-Elder wrote:The United States is engaged now in three wars. It is true that these were not of our own choosing.

Before you go off on some long winded would be philosophical diatribe in justification of your country and religion, you should at least get your facts straight.

"When you meditate, don't send your mind outside. Don't fasten onto any knowledge at all. Whatever knowledge you've gained from books or teachers, don't bring it in to complicate things. Cut away all preoccupations, and then as you meditate let all your knowledge come from what's going on in the mind. When the mind is quiet, you'll know it for yourself. But you have to keep meditating a lot. When the time comes for things to develop, they'll develop on their own. Whatever you know, have it come from your own mind.http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/thai ... eleft.html

Kamma is not the only law on how the world works. There are five (5) Universal Order that governed the world.1. Utu Niyama, physical inorganic order, which govern the physical and chemical phenomena such as the cause of winds and rains, the nature of heat, etc. 2. Bija Niyama, physical organic order, which govern the biological and genetic aspect such as germs, seeds, cells and etc. 3. Kamma Niyama, order of action and its result. 4. Dhamma Niyama, order of the norm, which governs the natural phenomena such as gravity, the phenomena of earthquake etc. 5. Citta Niyama, order of mind, which governs the processes of consciousness and the power of mind in the context of psychic power. ~Abhidhammavatara~ http://www.mahindarama.com/corresponden ... ate2-1.htm

with mettaChris

---The trouble is that you think you have time------Worry is the Interest, paid in advance, on a debt you may never owe------It's not what happens to you in life that is important ~ it's what you do with it ---

Ron-The-Elder wrote:The United States is engaged now in three wars. It is true that these were not of our own choosing.

Before you go off on some long winded would be philosophical diatribe in justification of your country and religion, you should at least get your facts straight.

Care to explain your comment?

What Makes an Elder? :A head of gray hairs doesn't mean one's an elder. Advanced in years, one's called an old fool.But one in whom there is truth, restraint, rectitude, gentleness,self-control, he's called an elder, his impurities disgorged, enlightened.-Dhammpada, 19, translated by Thanissaro Bhikkhu.

Right, but absolute knowledge of such so-called "facts" are not a matter of choice for the average Joe or Jill like you and I, nor the kids that are ordered off to war by their leaders.

I can see what Morlock is getting at from his perspective, but we are speaking for him and we really shouldn't.

Debate about "weapons of mass destruction" not found in Iraq will more than likely surpass the theories regarding The Kennedy Assassination. This has been chalked up to foggy intelligence from one faction, and explained as out and out lies by opposing factions. Ironically what Obama's people are calling "weapons of mass destruction" now are not even close to having the destructive power of nuclear, chemical, and biological weapons that Saddaam Hussein was missing from his UN inspectors' weapons and munitions mass balance reports. But, I can understand and respect morlock's perspective, which seems to be diametrically opposed to mine. I long ago became bored of such arguments. Perhaps now that Afghanistan, Iraq, and now Libya and Egypt have a chance at the process of democratizing we will learn more regarding the truth of it all. If not, we will have to wait for Syria to follow suit as it was named as the repository of WMDs by Brittish and U.S. Intelligence agencies, who advised their leadership.

In any event, such is the nature of perspectives and views. That is why Buddha advised never to become attached to them, nor to waste any time in debating them. Attachment causes nothing but dukkha. So, I will stop, and let mine go and get back to the work of putting out my personal fires of delusion and attachment.

Thanks again for your input.

_/\_Ron

What Makes an Elder? :A head of gray hairs doesn't mean one's an elder. Advanced in years, one's called an old fool.But one in whom there is truth, restraint, rectitude, gentleness,self-control, he's called an elder, his impurities disgorged, enlightened.-Dhammpada, 19, translated by Thanissaro Bhikkhu.

In many regards it's a sutta about how we create our own hells, through the way we respond to the raw input of the senses.

Metta,Retro.

If you have asked me of the origination of unease, then I shall explain it to you in accordance with my understanding: Whatever various forms of unease there are in the world, They originate founded in encumbering accumulation. (Pārāyanavagga)

Exalted in mind, just open and clearly aware, the recluse trained in the ways of the sages:One who is such, calmed and ever mindful, He has no sorrows! -- Udana IV, 7

In many regards it's a sutta about how we create our own hells, through the way we respond to the raw input of the senses.

Metta,Retro.

Thanks, Retro. Always appreciate your references.

What Makes an Elder? :A head of gray hairs doesn't mean one's an elder. Advanced in years, one's called an old fool.But one in whom there is truth, restraint, rectitude, gentleness,self-control, he's called an elder, his impurities disgorged, enlightened.-Dhammpada, 19, translated by Thanissaro Bhikkhu.

Hope you are staying warm and that your oranges are prolific and oversized!

Assuming you read the original post, I will try restating it in a slight variation just for you. The point is that nobody needs to ask, "Why?"...if they have discovered, come to penetrate and understand impermanence, dependent origination and its proper subset, kamma. When we find ourselves up to our necks in a cess-pool of dukkha of our own making, all we have to do to reverse the trend is to "stop" whatever we have been doing intentionally, which got us there in the first place.

But, this is not my point, as you say. It is Buddha's point when he stated, "violence leads only to more violence."..and "The only way to stop (such violence) is to stop."

For example: If you don't like your kids coming home in body bags, stop teaching them that war is noble and glorious, meritorious, and beneficial by exposing them to all the glorifying t.v. shows, movies, video games, and air shows. Stop giving them Stratego, Chess, toy guns, army helmets, paint guns; stop encouraging them to play war games like football, soccer, hockey, and watching The World Wrestling t.v. shows, teaching them the marshal arts, and then be surprised when you suddenly find yourself sending them off to war singing, "Be! All that you can be!", and they will probably live long enough to graduated from Medical School, or with a degree in whatever else they live long enough to choose to matriculate. If enough parents do this, your nation will probably then be able to afford Health Care insurance for even your poorest.

If you dislike your children being overexposed to radio-nucleotides precipitating out of the sky into your front yard, and you hate the taste of Iodine tablets, which you have to take to avoid thyroid cancer because you have absorbed a life-time dose of radiation from your drinking water and vegetables, next time don't build your nuclear reactors on the edge of the ocean on top of a tectonic subduction zone. If you don't like your kids, mothers, fathers, children dieing in a flood, move to Tibet, The French Alps, or at least The Canadian Rockies. If you don't like your kids dying, crushed beneath earthquake induced rubble, move as far away from the local seismic epicenter as is practical.

As Sam Kennison used to say: "Don't complain about you and your family starving to death and suffering from droughts if you live in the desert." "Arrrrhhhhhhhhhhh!" "You live in a deseeerrrrrrrrrt!"

Don't ask the god of your delusions, "Why?" in any of these cases. The answer is found in The Four Noble Truths: The root of all of our physical and mental pain, suffering, stress and dissatisfaction (dukkha) is to be found in our ignorance, and in the subsequent intentional actions we take as a result of that ignorance.

What Makes an Elder? :A head of gray hairs doesn't mean one's an elder. Advanced in years, one's called an old fool.But one in whom there is truth, restraint, rectitude, gentleness,self-control, he's called an elder, his impurities disgorged, enlightened.-Dhammpada, 19, translated by Thanissaro Bhikkhu.

If there's one thing that doesn't sit quite right with me about the posts you've made, it's that the consequences of kamma (i.e. vipaka) are mental, and are experienced because of becoming (bhava).

Your post contains a great deal of what one might call "common sense" and a good understanding of worldly causality and how "one thing leads to another" but I think it is a mistake to conflate that and make connections between those observations and kamma and dependent origination, in the way you have.

As I understand them, kamma and dependent origination are deep teachings based on how one formulates one's loka through volitional activity rooted in ignorance, rather than establishing a two-way relationship between the (little s) self and the so-called "world around us".

See also Cooran's links above if you've not already done so.

Metta,Retro.

If you have asked me of the origination of unease, then I shall explain it to you in accordance with my understanding: Whatever various forms of unease there are in the world, They originate founded in encumbering accumulation. (Pārāyanavagga)

Exalted in mind, just open and clearly aware, the recluse trained in the ways of the sages:One who is such, calmed and ever mindful, He has no sorrows! -- Udana IV, 7

Bluishpurple wrote:Great OP Ron, I have to say I share a lot of the views that you do. If it's okay with you I'll share this with some people I feel would be interested

Bluishpurple

Please do, Blu. (That rhymes.)

What Makes an Elder? :A head of gray hairs doesn't mean one's an elder. Advanced in years, one's called an old fool.But one in whom there is truth, restraint, rectitude, gentleness,self-control, he's called an elder, his impurities disgorged, enlightened.-Dhammpada, 19, translated by Thanissaro Bhikkhu.

If there's one thing that doesn't sit quite right with me about the posts you've made, it's that the consequences of kamma (i.e. vipaka) are mental, and are experienced because of becoming (bhava).

Your post contains a great deal of what one might call "common sense" and a good understanding of worldly causality and how "one thing leads to another" but I think it is a mistake to conflate that and make connections between those observations and kamma and dependent origination, in the way you have.

As I understand them, kamma and dependent origination are deep teachings based on how one formulates one's loka through volitional activity rooted in ignorance, rather than establishing a two-way relationship between the (little s) self and the so-called "world around us".

See also Cooran's links above if you've not already done so.

Metta,Retro.

You are right, Retro.. And, thanks, I have seen Cooran's post. It speaks of the difference between kamma vipakha resulting from natural events and kamma vipakha, which results from one's intentional actions. I truly do understand the difference as you clearly do. We have had this discussion many times in the past on many different forums over the years. However, my point in this case was to focus upon the fact that we must take responsibility for the results of our own personal decisions as well as our intentions, and that when we make decisions to respond to " violence with violence " there will usually be dire consequences for not only ourselves, but for all those around us, as is the case with all the wars in which we have been engaged since my birth over sixty-six years ago.

There are always unforeseen consequences of our actions which arise out of our acting in ignorance, which is what is discussed in The Four Noble Truths and in its underpinnings: impermanence and dependent origination. As you and I have discussed before The Law of Kamma is but a proper subset of D.O..

For example if we are ignorant of the force of gravity, and we build our houses on an inclines along the Pacific Ocean not only because of our attachment to the view, but because of what Buddha describes as what is impermanent and dependently originated, we can expect when (not if) the rainy seasons arrive that our house will be taken away by the typical mud slides experienced on the West Coast under the influence of gravity. If this is just common sense, then so be it, but every year we read about folks losing their homes that way, just as we read about folks building their homes in dry desert forests and high grasses, because of their attachment to isolation surrounded by ten year overgrowth losing their homes and perhaps ever their lives to fires.

The fact of suffering that Buddha describes in The Four Noble Truths, is suffering which arises due to our attachment to our lovely homes, and the belief that it will last us for a life-time and beyond to be passed on to our children. Physical pain, which is also a form of dukkha, comes from the real potential of losing our limbs or lives in the middle of the night due to our ignorance in choosing a poor building site out of our lack of understanding of impermanence and dependent origination along with the basic principles of good engineering. Dukkha arises both in the physical plane and the mental plane. We can personally witness the consequences of our ignorance in the physical plane by just looking at the rubble in Haiti, Chili, China, Tibet, and now Japan. Buildings don't experience dukkha, but the people who once lived in them do. We can witness the consequences of our ignorance in the mental plane by just looking around at the death and destruction in Afghanistan, Iraq, Somalia, Darfur, Egypt, Libya, and all the battle and war memorials around the world: Pearl Harbor, Nagasaki, Hiroshima, Arlington Cemetery, Argonne Cemetery, The Killing Fields of Laos, Gettysburg, .........and unfortunately many, many more. Again, the destroyed infrastructure doesn't experience dukkha, but the people which used and depended upon them do, and the folks who lost their loved-ones in these wars do. It may sound harsh to say that in the case of wars, much of this physical pain, suffering, stress and dissatisfaction (dukkha) is the result of our attachments to loved ones and the belief or some tacit tolerance of the belief that participation in wars can somehow be glorious and righteous. As any warrior knows first hand, "War is hell!"....because violence leads only to more violence. It is never ending as history will testify.

Last edited by Ron-The-Elder on Wed Mar 23, 2011 2:49 pm, edited 2 times in total.

What Makes an Elder? :A head of gray hairs doesn't mean one's an elder. Advanced in years, one's called an old fool.But one in whom there is truth, restraint, rectitude, gentleness,self-control, he's called an elder, his impurities disgorged, enlightened.-Dhammpada, 19, translated by Thanissaro Bhikkhu.

Viscid wrote:Ron likes to lecture to reinforce his delusion of being a 'Wise Elder.'

I think you will find that I fall into the first category:

"A head of gray hairs doesn't mean one's an elder. Advanced in years, one's called an old fool."

The Elders referred to in my signature reference The Original Sangha, The Followers of Buddha.

No delusions here my friend.

And, you are probably right. I should study more and lecture less. I guess this is what happens when you get old.

I like your ass by the way. Who is that supposed to be riding it? He looks familiar, only the last time I saw him he was carrying a sickle instead of a whip. Or, is Death (Mara) riding you as he has been me?

What Makes an Elder? :A head of gray hairs doesn't mean one's an elder. Advanced in years, one's called an old fool.But one in whom there is truth, restraint, rectitude, gentleness,self-control, he's called an elder, his impurities disgorged, enlightened.-Dhammpada, 19, translated by Thanissaro Bhikkhu.