Zephyrus wrote:Off the plot, How so? It is, and you don't know any thing about me, but you, like many others just can't refrain from putting in their 10 cents. You're a prime example of what's called a 'suck up'.

Ahem. I am not "sucking up" as you so eloquently put it. I'm saying you AREN'T part of the community. Remember in grade four when you learned to "read between the lines" ?

I'm willing to accept this as a starting point, but let's see some reasoning.

It's awful, if one of you doesn't like something, no one does, if one of you likes something, soon you're all raving about it, if one of you make something, its an instant hit and people can't think otherwise and get away with it.

I love this. Let's be reasonable, now. As Wrk said earlier, nobody has any way of regulating who plays what at any time, and we certainly don't exert any control over anyone's map choices. Believe it or not, people play good maps because they're good maps, and not because they're enforced by the Qooustapo.

And what does this "get away with it" thing mean, anyway? What do you think any of us are going to do? Kill them?

This sounds like bitterness and spite, not anything actually legitimate. Moving on.

you can do what the hell you want with out caring about consequence ie banning people for posting in a certain pigeon lounge topic, banning for not searching, banning for talking too much in a netgame, shunning users, putting users or their ideas down

"If you post in this topic, you will be banned. Not joking." Wow, how horrible of me to follow up on that very clearly-worded warning.

Banning for not searching never happened.

Banning for talking too much in a netgame never happened. You were banned for other reasons, and your IP address changed so you were allowed re-entry. You were allowed back into the channel provisionally, but one should figure that if you get banned from a channel and then readmitted, you should be on your very best behavior so that you can stay in. You weren't, so you got banned. Very simple. This is common sense, nothing more.

Shunning users? The users that get shunned usually bring it on themselves because they do stuff like cry about how the rest of the Pfhorums is in a clique that hates your guts and everything you do.

Putting users or their ideas down? You think this is exclusive to our "clique" or whatever? Like everyone else on this site is that nice to begin with. Now, moving beyond your conspiracy of censorship.

The a1 community is probably one of the worst online communities I have been apart of. And no, no one is forcing me to come here, thats my own choice.

I see. You're welcome to leave if you want. I hear INFINITYS is a more accepting site, free of discrimination and censorship.

Firstly, I am not going to go quote hunting, I'm staying with my opinion, I'm not going to play games with you.

1000 members in this clique, no, you know well who is in the clique I'm talking about and no, they're not all in the #alephone room either.

Feel free to actually post a list of who's in the clique. I need to start taking roll call when we meet at headquarters, so I want to know who's in and who isn't. Sometimes I forget.

This probably isn't the best example, and I'm using moppypuppy, but I recall of when he said that he thought RED was the best TC available and how he liked it allot, and got gunned down because RED apparently sucks.

It isn't against the rules to disagree. MoppyPuppy was "gunned down" because he had an opinion, and other people disagreed with him, and there was a discourse. That's how these things work. He was probably treated poorly because of his tendency to UNNECESSARILY ACCENTUATE PARTS OF HIS POST and because he believed that monsters teleporting in is a sign of bad mapmaking -- a direct jab at me. Why shouldn't I respond to that?

Look, all I ask for is a small change, can't any one be nicer, and more welcoming? some new rules maybe?

Okay, I will not argue that there is a group of people who are viewed as slightly "superior" in this community, but you know what's really surprising? They are the people who develop Aleph One, organize contests, put together some of the best map packs out there, are active in the community and run site like the pfhorums. Now, I'm not saying who maps is automatically in this group, or that everyone who contributes to the community is, but it just so happens that most or all of the people in this group do contribute a lot to the community.

Also, they aren't always the nicest people you've ever met, but what do you expect? Everyone on the internet to say "hey, it's the internet, I'd better be a darling little angel and never say anything that could possibly hurt anyones feelings"? How many times has a person posted a topic whose answer is already PINNED and gotten reprimanded for it compared to how many times someone asks a question that is at least fairly sensible and had the same reaction? As for mapping, feedback generally starts purely constructive, until the mapper starts to become stubborn or get overly defensive about their map and get angry for anything not completely positive. When I started mapping, I asked Ryoko if he'd look at my first netmap, and he said he would if I just got a pfhorum account and posted it there. So, I post my map and he replies, you can read his reply, and it was very constructive, even if it was almost all (constructive) criticism. His first words, iirc were "well, this map isn't good". Was I crushed? Did my world come to an end? Did I run to my room and start crying? no. I was slightly disappointed, but I understood. It was my first netmap, I was glad just to get feedback. The second thing he did though, was start with the "good" or "positive" things. What a cold, heartless, bastard. Anyway, after that I spent some time making a new map, and the feedback was very positive, and I kept trying until I finally became more independent as a mapper.

So, I felt good about mapping, and I still am continuing mapping avidly, and the feedback I get is generally very positive, even though I'm not making the new Red Spectrum, Popems or Sovereignty yet. Am I in this so called cliche though? No.

Seriously, maybe go look at how you act from someone else's view, and make a conscious effort to see what YOU'VE done wrong, instead of trying to find what others have done wrong to you, in a n attempt to make it look like YOU are in the right. I must admit, I don't feel terribly welcome in the IRC all the time, and it may be partially due to my age, which isn't completely in my control, but I can to an extent control how I act. Asking everyone to welcome you and everyone else just because you haven't necessarily done anything horribly wrong to them is like expecting to be accepted in a club dressed like and acting like a massive geek, it's not going to happen.

Now, just so you understand, I'm not saying all the people in the "superior" group are perfect, but they really aren't as bad as you think.

Zephyrus wrote:Secondly, Manipulative I see, If you check the thread you see that I tried to help in thermo's /r/ topic...................although cunning as you are, you missed my initial posts... by accident?

I meant to illustrate that we aren't as you describe: a group that is totally self-congratulatory and shuns others just because they aren't "one of us." We do reply helpfully to a lot of things. With minimal deductive reasoning, you'll see that there's a system to the way we react to people. When we feel that the person is being obnoxious or unreasonable, we let him have it. Otherwise, we show restraint.

That sounds quite constructive to me, hey I tried to help, don't you think, don't you think so irons?Although I was wrong about the map, and seems like pfhotipfhy totally skipped a few posts in that topic. But finding a post of me insulting pfhortipfhy, shlonking it onto your 8 quote list of done-goods proves what?

Oh, hey, there's some of what I just described: there was a reason for your behavior (just like there was a reason for mine).

I wouldn't say my selective quotation was "manipulative"; I picked various recent posts and showed that we're not the fucking KKK. In any case, it's no more manipulative than the way you did not address the good stuff I illustrated.

Mordekai wrote:I fail to see how one person could force other people to think a certain way.

How do you think religions survived through history?

irons wrote:The worst I see is generally that when someone ignores the search and asks a question, another will help him and firmly but gently remind him that we do have searching for a reason. It just becomes silly when there's a new topic for Damage, Inc., Jumping, and all kinds of shit, every month or two.

At least one person is helped in this kind of cases: the one who asks.Now please tell me who suffers from it.

Ive been told before not to be friendly to pfhortipfhy. Being unfriendly to someone is one thing, but asking other people to do the same goes beyond my comprehension.

PS: I totally agree with pfhorrest, to whom im not responding, except that i think there are stupid questions.

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Most of those were enforced by death threats or similar real-world tactics. As Marathoners, we know that we are all immortal and we are Destiny, so it's a less effective tactic

Speaking of Pfhortiphy, let me show you guys some personal messages we exchanged last October.

irons wrote:

QUOTE(irons)

I don't pay for hosting on treellama.org because I know the owner (Treellama). My guess is he won't give you hosting, so you should probably start elsewhere. It's been a long time since I used a free host site; most of them aren't that great and I can't really point you to a good one.

My own knowledge of computers and the Internet is actually quite new. I had a Performa 6220 in my room with AOL up until 2001 (it had a 14.4k modem), when I got a G4 tower for my birthday. With a more modern system, especially one with roots in UNIX, I could start experimenting with things like real Web browsers, programs (compiling from source code), and the like. It wasn't until college (2004), however, that I really started to learn about these things. I took a web design course in 2005 and then started playing Aleph One with the Marathon community that spring. I learned about Lua and wanted to start adding things like a carnage reporter and jumping, so I asked a guy down the hall to help me with the basics of computer languages. Once I knew a few things, I started looking up manuals and tutorials online. That's how Lua became my first computer language.

Later that fall, I took a Java programming class because I wanted to increase my knowledge in that field. I learned a lot from it and was able to apply a good deal of the new stuff to Lua scripts. In 2006 I took another course in Java, but I hated it, so that was the last of those. However, at the same time, I began to have an interest in making network maps for Marathon, so I used Forge and other familiar tools to do that. By fall 2006, I switched to Linux as my only operating system (I hate OS X now that they concentrate on adding useless features instead of maintaining a stable and fast OS), and I was frustrated that I couldn't do any kind of map editing. I found a really old document that described the structure of Marathon 1 maps and decided to look at it. I jokingly discussed a Lua-based editor with W'rkncacnter at that time, and then started working on something that would read maps and report certain information (using Lua). I found that Lua lacked a lot of what I needed, so I gave up.

In 2007, I decided to try again, this time with Java. W'rk and I teamed up and created the program now known as JUICE. During the summer, I decided to learn the Perl language in order to replace Lua as my "quick and dirty" programming language; Perl is mainly useful for dealing with text, which is what almost all my quickie programs tend to do.

Here's the funny thing: I see all this stuff as a hobby. I use programming every day now, mainly because it makes certain tasks easier (like formatting text into HTML, etc.) or because I get stupid ideas and decide to work on them seriously. I am a writer at heart, and I prefer writing to doing any of this stuff (except that writing is harder, so I get distracted easily). All of the knowledge I have I picked up piece by piece as I went along, either looking it up online (Google is a good help if you can give it the right search phrases), attending a college course, or asking people who already know (my own friends and room mates). You're what, 14? I was 16 when we finally got broadband, and 18 before I even started learning more than the basics about the modern computer/internet culture. In 3 years, I've learned all of what a lot of the Marathon community sees as my greatest set of skills. If you have the time and patience, it won't take too long.

Pfhortiphy annoys me a lot of the time. Even so, he, and others like him, have sent me personal messages or contacted me through e-mail, and I've addressed their concerns very nicely. This is mainly a lesson to some of the guys who feel less welcome: we're a lot nicer one-on-one than we appear to be "in public." When there's no one else around to spin things one way or another, and when no one else will understand the subtle jokes that drive guys like Zephyrus over the edge, we get down to business.

P.S.--Here's some funny stuff from the new Legends archive that shows how paranoid some people are:

We lost all of the best map makers in the big Bridges and Balconies crash of 2001.What we have now is a self supporting clique of young map makers.They rig map votes on FB and in contests.Select the maps you like, reject the rest and hope we get new map making tools soon.[/quote]

Also, this thread has some of the same complaints by Samus (a.k.a. Zephyrus).

Maybe we have different personalities. It's not so much many different stupid questions; it's that people keep asking the same stupid questions over and over. Wouldn't that make you annoyed? For example, search for "Damage Inc" and see what I mean. More than once, people have blustered onto the Pfhorums saying "HEY DAMAGE INC=ALEPH ONE LETS CONVERT IT." And every time, someone explains that they aren't quite the same. And then it happens again Can you see what I'm saying? Or we have the whole "Where do I get OS X FORGE?!?!?!!" when there is a topic pinned in the forum where most people ask that states that such a thing does not exist. I look forward to the day when JUICE or Smithy have progressed enough that such a topic will no longer be necessary

Anyway. I wasn't annoyed at Pfhort in those messages. I just meant that he annoys me more in general than he doesn't

Zephyrus wrote:And yes I felt the cross ban was relevant, and it was the reason I was banned, which was confirmed in the room afterwards by TK, otherwise ben wouldn't have unbanned me would he?

It is not relevant because you were never purposefully unbanned, and it's #alephone. This topic is about the whole marathon community (I guess), not the small fraction of people that use that chatroom. If you're looking for a change in tone in the alephone chatroom, I'd say you're out of luck. It does not put up with any amount of bullshit, and never will. How many times have you been kicked out of there? Maybe 5 times or something? I've kicked irons out of there probably about 15 times for being obnoxious. It doesn't matter who you are, #alephone does not put up with stupid crap.

I guess what I'm trying to address here is that any tone change you want in #alephone is not going to happen, and has no reason to. The tone on the Pfhorums may be another story, but IMO it's not as bad as you make it seem.

Pfhorrest wrote:And I'm curious, to everyone who believes there to be a elite clique here: am I a part of it or not? I certainly don't feel like one of the mindless masses, my opinion being swayed by a shadowy cabal of elites; which I suppose must mean that I'm a member of said cabal...

RyokoTK wrote:I'm basically the worst admin in admin history, but my hunger for more power (and blood) will not be stanched so easily!

You say that with such pride. How does the rest of the pfhorums put up with you? I'm glad Zephyrus has the courage to stand up to you. I know there are more people that agree with us, that Ryoko must be stopped. I'd like to hear what Shadowbreaker has to say about this, since it was his quote that inspired me to make this topic in the first place. Let's help Zephyrus out so the clique doesn't gang up on him so bad!

I think this topic has done a good job of showing just how bad Ryoko is for the community. He's not taking this seriously enough, and it's really a problem.

RyokoTK wrote:I think we demonstrated that I'm doing so much to ruin the community that I'm lashing out at the admin of our rival message board.

I'm basically the worst admin in admin history, but my hunger for more power (and blood) will not be stanched so easily!

Careful there... I don't think either of us would like the inevitable results of that war. Our harsh Latin words and scathingly reasonable essays shall be so long and so many that they shall blot out the sun! You shall be, as the say, modus pwned.

The One wrote:You say that with such pride. How does the rest of the pfhorums put up with you? I'm glad Zephyrus has the courage to stand up to you. I know there are more people that agree with us, that Ryoko must be stopped. I'd like to hear what Shadowbreaker has to say about this, since it was his quote that inspired me to make this topic in the first place. Let's help Zephyrus out so the clique doesn't gang up on him so bad!

I think this topic has done a good job of showing just how bad Ryoko is for the community. He's not taking this seriously enough, and it's really a problem.

Actually, as a double agent serving both as a junior member of the shadowy cabal and as a ringleader of the underground resistance movement (neither of which am I admitting to the existence of), I applaud those like Zephyrus for questioning authority and setting an example that it's OK for people to speak up and demand accountability of the administration; and likewise, I applaud Ryoko for his generally even-handed and humorous handling of these little uprisings, which sets just as much of an example that you can stand up and rage against the machine and you're not going to get squashed for it. The political machinery here is working exactly as it should; the common people distrust and question the powerful, and the powerful restrain themselves from using that power to silence their opposition. This keeps those with power honest and benevolent and those without power righteous and vigilant, and we all benefit from it.

For the record, what I anticipated would be demonstrated by my little Q.E.D. is precisely what was demonstrated: that Ryoko is a sarcastic kind of guy who says what would be outlandish things if he meant them seriously, except he doesn't. If I had been banned for posting again, the opposite would have been proven. I'm glad my sarcasm detector is working today.

irons wrote:Stop being a giant douche

Don't blame me, I voted for Turd Sandwich.

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-Forrest Cameranesi, Geek of All TradesDirector of the Xeventh Project, the team behind Eternal"I am Sam. Sam I am. I do not like trolls, flames, or spam."

By the way, Nameless, that pure-as-snow martyr who sacrificed himself so bravely and was killed (Hence "banishÃ¨d" is banished from the world, And world's exile is death) by Ryoko the dictator... he's just as stupid as an admin as he is a regular user.Goodness! 3 warnings instead of 7! He's much nicer than Ryoko! Aren't you glad you're on his side?

$lave wrote:Erm... I think you mean such sarcasm. I'm starting to think you must just be someone's second account, I don't know how else you could be/act so stupid.

That's a pretty low blow. I don't get it. I've done nothing but try to help the community since I joined the pfhorums, and people have acted like assholes to me. You can see why I'm fed up with this community. Calling me stupid just for having an opinion makes me pretty sad.

When I first joined, I had hopes of adding to the Aleph One experience, but even someone that's willing to put time and energy into a project to help the community gets called names. I guess I'll try to find some other community that will appreciate me more. Have fun being assholes to each other.

The One, we're not calling you stupid for having an opinion; we're calling you stupid for having a stupid opinion. But let's make amends. I'm willing to put time and energy into making a huge pile of shit in my toilet. Since you value time and energy, and not what they turn into, I know you'll value the package that's making its way to you courtesy of Waste Shipments, Inc.

The One wrote:When I first joined, I had hopes of adding to the Aleph One experience, but even someone that's willing to put time and energy into a project to help the community gets called names. I guess I'll try to find some other community that will appreciate me more. Have fun being assholes to each other.

<PLUG TYPE="shameless">Or hey, if you really want to be a part of the Marathon community and just don't like the atmosphere here (which is understandable), there's always older, more mature corners of the community where you might like it better. Like most stodgy old places full of boring reasonable people, we're rather underpopulated these days...</PLUG>

-Forrest Cameranesi, Geek of All TradesDirector of the Xeventh Project, the team behind Eternal"I am Sam. Sam I am. I do not like trolls, flames, or spam."