Dude... did you read ANY of the previous posts in this thread? This has come up 1000 times. There is no summerboard or customize or games available for 2.0 firmware yet (outside of the app store of course) because they haven't been ported! This has NOTHING to do with either Installer or Cydia. If Installer was released today it would have just as little (maybe even less) apps than what are hosted on Cydia.

Because you have to be patient and let it finish updateing/installing/uninstalling before it will bump itself back to the interface or springboard.

That's the thing it doesn't, I can wait for hours and it will be still in Cydia. I really don't like it. Uninstalling Cydia totally from my iPhone as we speak.

Originally Posted by imode69

Dude... did you read ANY of the previous posts in this thread? This has come up 1000 times. There is no summerboard or customize or games available for 2.0 firmware yet (outside of the app store of course) because they haven't been ported! This has NOTHING to do with either Installer or Cydia. If Installer was released today it would have just as little (maybe even less) apps than what are hosted on Cydia.

I'd rather have an Installer without any apps than Cydia with apps. Installer sounds a lot cooler than Cydia aswell.

I don't care if Installer has apps or not and Cydia has the worlds best apps on it, I just want Installer on my iPhone as soon as possible

Why must they cooperate with Cydia? Installer, regardless of repository format, has been providing users with access to apps since the beginning, and suddenly because Cydia is open source, Installer should apologize and then mimic it? Again, pretentious. That's a "mine is better than yours, so yours should aspire to be like mine" attitude.

Definitely not. The fact that Cydia is open source and Installer is not does not in anyway mean that they should be required to do anything, nor does it means users should care one way or the other about which product they use (unless they are pretentious, and some people are, and that's ok ;P).

The makers of Installer, however, should apologize to all the people who's time they wasted or who lost sensitive data by continuing to push "BSD Subsystem" as a viable alternative to Telesphoreo, which in turn only exists for Cydia because Installer simply could not handle installing it, it was too complicated for it.

Barring even the point that so much of it (BSD Subsystem) does not work (which limited the ability for developers to use the platform effectively, which meant applications were more difficult to write and package, which meant that you, the user, had fewer options), in specific the passwd tool didn't work, which is downright dangerous. The number of people floating around who A) are using default passwords and B) are running OpenSSH is insane, and is entirely due to NullRiver not getting onboard with Telesphoreo.

To explain this more fully: the war being fought between Installer and Cydia has nothing to do with any interface element any user ever notices. It has nothing to do with searching (a commonly cited feature Cydia had for a long time), and it doesn't even have to do with Installer's broken promise to the community about going open source.

Instead, it has entirely to do with the options available to the packager and the developer, which translates to more and better applications for users. The number of developers you find who lament the fact that people use Installer is very high. In fact, many of the developers who write the software you are installing sit around on the Cydia IRC channels commiserating over "how am I going to install this next one with Installer, *grumble*".

An example: I can pretty much guarantee you that, had Installer been willing to respond to developer's (in this case my) needs, we would all be happily installing J2ME games (yes, that's right, the thousands of available Java games for handsets) on our iPhones right now, via Installer, as I wouldn't have had to waste months of funded Port-Java-To-The-iPhone effort on dealing with the fact that Installer A) didn't have dependencies, B) didn't support symbolic links correctly, and C) was built on a failing Unix layer that they were no longer supporting. Installer didn't even respond to my (very very nice, as at the time I was a very happy user of Installer; I was only beginning to start deveopment for the iPhone) e-mails.

So, did anyone here notice this lost development? No. Could they have? No. Why? Because this isn't a feature you see in Cydia or Installer if you aren't a developer. This, seriously, is why you see people arguing over silly technical details like what repository format Installer and Cydia are using: because it directly affects what you can support via the installation mechanism. Cydia, based on Debian APT, has 15 years of people trying to install all kinds of random software with it and simply "works" for pretty much anything you need to get onto a device, from a phone to a mainframe.

Regardless, the end of that story is that those "wasted" months of effort went into writing Telesphoreo and Cydia, and now things work. Does it matter? Still no: because users aren't using any of it yet, so developers can't start assuming it and deploying their software. Why? Because Installer didn't even want to discuss the project nor thought it was important, which meant that Cydia, an open source project that they could A) contribute or even B) usurp (there's no reason why Installer couldn't just get APT support welded into it in such a way that no one noticed), hasn't gotten as much usage, which translates to less funding for it, which translates to not "looking as pretty".

Luckily, on 2.0, the tables have turned somewhat due to Installer simply not being ready, which means that I've been able to obtain more time to work on Cydia, which has been getting us features like icons (which soon will support icons per package), the source editor (should be out today), and an "Expert" user mode which will hide packages people find confusing.

So, to sum it all up into a sound bite: why should you support Cydia? Because Cydia dreams of (and the developers of are actively spending their time attempting to provide) a world where everyone is playing J2ME games on their secure phone, while Installer seems content with a world where people get only a fraction of the products to run on a phone whose address book has already been stolen and is probably running a virus. :(

Regardless, I'm going to go back to working on Cydia. ;P (I only looked here as I was trying to find RiPDev's e-mail address, which apparently isn't posted anywhere, and Google seemed to indicate that this page might have it, but I didn't find it. I guess he just doesn't like talking to users anymore than NullRiver didn't. Meanwhile, I was accepting support phone calls this morning from a guy in Africa...)

posts like this drive me absolutely insane. it's not that i care what you do with your phone, or what you find "pretty", it's that there are a whole lot of people with this opinion, and *I* don't want to end up using a "pretty" yet inferior product simply because it has user traction.

You're right it is entirely up to the phone user on whether to use the program or not but honestly this post should be used for people that are interested in Installer, not for people to bash it or complain about why a fan picks this over the alternate.

Why don't the two sides merge like all other companies do these days and put together the best of both sources? I'm sure the two sides could use all of cydias security and interfacing with installers user friendly format and...... BAM!! The baddest mother of all installer sources! Cool and easy to use, with a crisp, sharp interface that is STABLE and SAFE! You could call it......hmmmm......... Cydia Installer!!!!!!!!

posts like this drive me absolutely insane. it's not that i care what you do with your phone, or what you find "pretty", it's that there are a whole lot of people with this opinion, and *I* don't want to end up using a "pretty" yet inferior product simply because it has user traction.

I'm sorry, are you for some reason under the impression that you will be forced to use Installer? If you don't want to use it, don't download it. Don't install programs from it. Use Cydia instead. And then stop complaining to those planning to use Installer about how you don't want to use it.

Originally Posted by saurik

To explain this more fully: the war being fought between Installer and Cydia has nothing to do with any interface element any user ever notices. It has nothing to do with searching (a commonly cited feature Cydia had for a long time), and it doesn't even have to do with Installer's broken promise to the community about going open source.

Instead, it has entirely to do with the options available to the packager and the developer, which translates to more and better applications for users. The number of developers you find who lament the fact that people use Installer is very high. In fact, many of the developers who write the software you are installing sit around on the Cydia IRC channels commiserating over "how am I going to install this next one with Installer, *grumble*".

Thanks for the informative post, Saurik. However, you point out exactly what I was saying -- that for most users, this behind-the-scenes stuff is no concern of ours. We see the product, the face of it, the features and what's available. And, I'm sorry, while you seem to indicate that Cydia offers more apps, I have never really found that to be true ... that is, speaking solely of actual applications that are user-driven (games, multimedia, mainly apps with icons on the springboard, etc.) rather than back-end (developer apps, codes or tools that most users would have no idea what to do with). With maybe one or two exceptions, I have always found what I needed on Installer. But there are hundreds of apps out there and of course I've never sat down and gone through them all (it's really subjective anyway as you could add sources from a number of places to access more apps).

Luckily, on 2.0, the tables have turned somewhat due to Installer simply not being ready, which means that I've been able to obtain more time to work on Cydia, which has been getting us features like icons (which soon will support icons per package), the source editor (should be out today), and an "Expert" user mode which will hide packages people find confusing.

Glad to hear of the improvements, and I'm sure those will go a long way to improving Cydia's user base. The "Expert" mode hiding the non-user-friendly packages is especially intriguing. Do that, add a source editor (which for the record I don't see yet ), and make the interface more user-friendly (I'm sorry to say it, but copy Installer), and you just might have a convert.

So, to sum it all up into a sound bite: why should you support Cydia? Because Cydia dreams of (and the developers of are actively spending their time attempting to provide) a world where everyone is playing J2ME games on their secure phone, while Installer seems content with a world where people get only a fraction of the products to run on a phone whose address book has already been stolen and is probably running a virus.

Again with smear 'n' fear tactics ::sigh:: What is it with the Cydia crowd? Lobbing grenades like this doesn't bolster your case, Saurik. I certainly hope you don't start calling for the elimination of Installer as others on this board have. Stick to working on Cydia; I'm sure everyone, Installer and Cydia users alike, would appreciate that more.

Oh man whats with all the bashing of installer its seriously like a Windows vs Mac (Cydia = Windows and Mac = Installer) Why do I like my mac cause **** just works and it looks great simple interface Installer follows this mac system where cydia doesnt I don't care about all this extra crap Cydia can do I want it to have sources I can add and simply install my programs with a nice friendly looking interface and installer 4.0 has this if you don't want to use it DONT! Beautiful thing is we have OPTIONS! SSH your **** into your phone or use Cydia win win for everyone!

that is correct, i will be forced to use installer if the applications i want are not available otherwise. apps available will choose the installer for most. i fully anticipate using both installer and cydia.

i refer you to the many posts outlining why the technical and licensing arguments are relative, in case you'd like to respond to them.

Originally Posted by zauriel

I'm sorry, are you for some reason under the impression that you will be forced to use Installer? If you don't want to use it, don't download it. Don't install programs from it. Use Cydia instead. And then stop complaining to those planning to use Installer about how you don't want to use it.

that is correct, i will be forced to use installer if the applications i want are not available otherwise. apps available will choose the installer for most. i fully anticipate using both installer and cydia.

i refer you to the many posts outlining why the technical and licensing arguments are relative, in case you'd like to respond to them.

But the whole argument so far has been that it doesn't matter whether you use Cydia or Installer in terms of app availability, it's the developers who must port their apps to 2.0. So don't be mad at Installer users if a dev decides to make their repository Installer friendly and not Cydia friendly. According to Saurik, most devs find it easier to dev for Cydia, so there's not much merit in thinking there will be soooo many apps that will be Installer-only that you just can't live without. If you plan on using both, great, but commenters on iPhone boards won't be controlling whether Installer lives up to your expectations.

And no, I don't care to go back over any posts concerning licensing or technical arguments, simply for the fact that I don't care about them. I know what I like, and I've never argued for others to use Installer over Cydia, unlike the plethora of Cydia backers on the flip side. I say use what you like without trying to demonize the competition or its user base.

I used installer because on my 1st gen iphone I used Ziphone which installed it automatically. There was little point in installing Cydia at the time as all of the apps I needed were availible through Installer. Now it is the other was around so I will stick with Cydia untill there is something on installer that I would like to install that is not availible on Cydia.

I dont think slinging mud helps the situation but this current delay in release of Installer has given it a chance so if it is as good for developers as you say it is let it shine and it may get some apps that can't run on installer.

"It doesnít matter, Installer wonít be ready until late October. Too many problems, plus I found out it canít work with Mobile Enhancer, itís a real program."

# slavikus пишет:
1 Август 2008 в 21:46

"Installer 4 is going to come out from RipDev and Nullriver in the near future, so we can sell Kate and the tethering program that AppleStore just put down. Itís going to cost 24.99 euros with 1 year upgrades, which will eventually be 2 months since Apple is changing the frameworks again in 2.1 firmware, where we are going to charge 15 euros for old customers and 25 for the new. The icons in the new Installer are going to be awsome though."