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Sourdough Pan de Mie - how to make "shreddably" soft bread

Sourdough Pan de Mie - how to make "shreddably" soft bread

After posting about some soft Asian style breads, I have gotten more than a few private messages regarding how to make very soft sandwich loaves. I was a little suprised since my impression was that most TFL-ers here prefer a good crusty lean hearth loaf, and soft "wonder breads" are being looked down to. I guess there IS always a need for soft breads: elders and kids who don't have strong teeth, spreaded with a little jam for delicate tea sandwiches , or just because you like the taste and texture. Soft breads are not equal to tasteless wonder breads either, they can be flavorful, "bouncy", and full of body.

Pan de Mie is a slightly enriched bread, just like most soft sandwich breads. That little bit of sugar, butter (you can replace with oil), and milk powder (you can replace with milk, and take out water accordingly of course), only 5% each, are enough to make the crumb very soft. For even softer results, you can increase these ratios to 10% or even 15%, or/and add other enriching ingredients such as cream, cream cheese, buttermilk, cottage cheese, etc. However, adding too much, you are getting into broche territory though. This verion is raised purely with sourdough stater, but you can get good results using commercial yeast as long as the ingredient ratio is reasonable, and you do a good job at kneading/fermentation/shaping. However, since pan de mie has a very subtle taste, that bit of sourdough tang really enhance the flavor, I would highly recommend using it.

Sourdough Pan de Mie (my own)

Note: 19% of the flour is in levain

Note: total hydration is 65%

Note: total flour is 280g, fit a 8X4 loaf pan. For my Chinese small-ish pullman pan, I used 260g total flour. For KAF 13X4X4 pullman pan, I would suggest using about 450g of total flour.

2. Mix together levain, flour, milk powdr, sugar, and water, autolyse for 30min. Add salt, mix until gluten is developed, add softened butter, and knead until the gluten is very developed. This intensive kneading s the key to a soft crumb, and proper volume. We've all heard of windowpane test, but what's important is how STRONG the said "windowpane" is, which is a measurement of how strong the dough is, and how uniformed the gluten structure is. The following the a picture of my windowpane test on this dough, notice that it's thin, but so strong that it doesn't tear even when I wear it as a glove and my finger is poking at it.

When I finally poke through, the edge of the hole needs to be very smooth.

Yes, it can be done by hand. I have regularly kneaded dough to this stage by hand, it just requires a bit of patience and practice. Of course it's easier with a mixer. In my KA pro6, this dough took 13 to 15 min of mixing at speed 3 or 4 (I know, I know, it violates the KA mixer manual. If you are worried, don't do it, just mix at speed 2, it will take (quite a bit) longer. I have been using this "illegal" method for 2 years now, the mixer has not complained.), doughs with more fat would take longer, different dough size would also affect the time. Do note that it's very possible to over-knead, especially with a mixer, even a couple more minutes after the stage above, the dough would deterioate quickly, it takes a few trial and error to get it perfect. I would suggest to touch and feel the dough every few minutes even you do use a mixer, so you get a good sense of how the dough changes. This intensive kneading technique is quite useful, not just for soft sandwiches, but also for brioche, or other enriched breads. However, for lean hearth loaves, I don't knead at all, I stretch and fold, to get the open crumb. I think different breads demands different techinques.

3. Bulk rise at room temp (73F) for 2 hours, the dough would have expanded noticably, but not too much. Fold, and put in fridge overnight. I find the crumb would be more even and soft if dough gets a full bulk rise - that is true even when I use dry yeast with this dough.

4. Divid, rest for one hour, then Shape into sandwich loaves, the goal here is to get rid of all air bubles in the dough, and shape them very tightly and uniformly, this way the crumb of final breads would be even and velvety, with no unsightly holes.

For the 8X4loaf pan, I first roll out the dough into pretty thin, getting rid of bubbles in the mean time. Fold two sides to middle (see picture below), then roll up like a jelly roll, and put in the pan seam side down.

However, I much prefer the pullman pan method. First divide the dough into 3 or 4 pieces depending on pan size, roll each piece into oval, and roll up. After resting for 10min, roll out each piece into long oval again(along the seam), and roll up again, tighter than the first time. Put the pieces seam side down in the pan. By rolling twice, the crumb will be more even and "pore-less".

5. Cover and rise for about 6 hours at 73F. For pullman pan, the dough should be 70%full

For 8X4loaf pan, the dough should be about one inch over the edge

6. Bake at 375 for 45min. Immediately take the bread out of pans, and cool.

Looking at the crumb shots below, you can see the difference between two shaping methods, the "double roll" really make the crumb more even and pore-less:

Of course, the "pore-less" crumb is more about aesthetic, with either shaping method, the bread would be shreddably soft.

Comments

A very nice write up and very nice looking breads, there certainly is a place for the enriched and the more straight forward types of bread and you have demostrated very successfully that sour dough doesn't always need to be big open holes. I often see see new members trying some of the more complex breads or methods and becoming disheartened that they are not achieving the same sorts of success straight up.

Having done an apprenticeship and worked in bakeries the aim was to produce breads that were fine textured with a tight even crumb and to have large holes was viewed as poor workmanship.

I do enjoy making my sourdoughs now, but certainly didn't find them easy to master and even now am still trying different things that i have picked up along the way from forums such as this.

I do feel that some of our new to bread making members would benefit from trying some of the more straight forward conventionaly fermented doughs which can be either short or long duration. A bit of walking before you run i guess and of course nothing breeds success like success. Thankyou for your post and sharing

I actually don't think these soft tight-crumbed breads are "easier" than the hole-y ones, they are just different, and requires totally different skill set. The intensive kneading for soft breads can be hard to get right, but you are right, this style of breads is closer to "traditional" method, which means more people would be familiar with the concept. While the lean loaves requiring S&F, long fermentation, and iron hand velvet glove shaping are a bit more "artisan", may be hard to grasp at first.

Hi txfarmer i tried your shreddibly soft sourdough loaf and failed miserably i dont know if it was the way i kneaded it if i did to much or if its because my sourdough starter didnt like it, because there wasnt any rye or whole wheat. The dough took hours to rise and was very dense and was slightly chewy, it was everything but light and fluffy. I was disapointed because i would like a sourdough recipe for a soft sandwhich loaf.

Very nicely done TX. The loaves look delicious and the pictures are so graceful! Those loaves scream PB AND J!

I am having a bit of a hard time grasping the double roll method. Are you; dividing the desired dough into three equal size portions. Rolling them out flat, rolling them up. Resting, then repeating the same procedure? Sorry its a bit late for me but I am waiting to register for class and thought I'd hop on the best place on the web!

I have added more pictures to show the process of double rolling, hope it's more clear now .

My smaller pullman pan is from China, which is of totally different/odd size, but as I have noted in the formula, for a 13X4X4 pullman loaf (which I have and used before), 450g of total flour would be right.

This will be very good for my father who regularly complains about my crusty bread.

If i want to take it to poor man's brioche level, could i just increase the butter ratio to say 20% of flour weight and proceed in the same way, but kneading longer i suppose. Also could i replace all 20% of the butter with oil?

you must have heard of/tried the 'tang zhong' method using a sort of water roux, how does this compare in your opinion?

finally, if i'm less keen on the tight pores and prefer a looser crumb, does that mean i should simply roll less tightly?

- Yes, you can use more butter/oil as you like, however, natural starter does slow down when fat content gets above certain level. I have tried using 15% butter, along with egg and milk with no obvious slow down, but at 20% butter, the final rise would take noticably longer. Yes, you can replace with oil.

- I have used "tang zhong" method, even bought the book and made most recipes from it. It was at the begining of my bread baking journey. At first I found it really useful - breads were softer and stayed moist longer. However as my basic techniques (kneading, fermentation, shaping as described in the post) improved, I found that it's really not necessary. I can get a very soft and velvety texture without "tang zhong", even without too much of other enriching ingredients such as mashed potato, yogurt, etc etc. All you need is a little bit of butter/oil, a bit of sugar, and good techniques. With sourdough, breads stay fresh longer anyway, so I really don't need "tang zhong" now. In summary, "tang zhong" is merely an extra tool, what I posted is good basic techniques. It's enough if you do the basics well, you don't need other tools, but you can still add "tang zhong" to your well kneaded, wel fermented, and well shaped breads, it won't hurt.

- yeah, rolling once will give you a looser crumb, however I do suggest you to try both methods. Tighter crumb offers a special texture - makes the bread soft, yet you still have something to sink your teeth into, a little extra "bounce".

Let's not forget that breads using sourdough starter and with at least 6 hours fermentation is much healthier than other breads. I won't get into the specifics as to why because it is easy to do a web search on the subject.

This is why I am so excited about your recipe!

I have enjoyed the Tangzhong Milk Bread but recently have been focusing on better nutrition using sourdough. I thought this meant not getting that really soft texture bread I like from time to time. But you have just made my day!!!

your conventionally-made breads show the same dedication to detail and care in the process as your "artisan" breads; very lovely to behold.

I agree with what both you and yozzause have to say about the skills set needed for both types of breads referenced.

Derek may well be familiar with the concept I've entitled to this thread post? Although, your photos detail what would be called "three-piecing", I guess. Anyway, your observation about the crumb structure being better using this method is quite correct...and this is why:

A single moulded piece results in gas bubbles which run up and down the loaf. Given the four pieces are turned on their sides, these gas bubbles now run across the dough from side to side. I'm no physicist, I'm afraid, but the way the light reflects off the finished crumb is superior in the "four-piecing" method than it is in the single-piece moulding.

Nearly all of the UK plant bread is made using "four piecing". Sadly, that does not help to make it anywhere near as interesting, or, lovely, as the loaves you showcase here!

I can always count on learning expert knowledge from you. For my 4X4X13 pullman pan, I usually do a real deal "four-piecing", but this Chinese pan is a bit small (finished loaf is 1lb), so 3-piecing instead. What you said about gas bubbles run side to side makes sense to me. I agree that if well made, ANY type of bread can be good, and each presents its own challenge to be perfected.

than comparing single to double rolling. Both loaves have a grain that runs through them caused by the shaping of rolling up the dough. The pullman loaf has the grain running across the short width of the pan (3 times) the domed single has the grain running the length of the pan. So in the pull man loaf, the bread is not cut across the grain which is the main difference in looking at the crumb shots. (If it helps, think of cutting a large onion. Cutting across or from the ends would give two very different looks to the same onion.)

I can't really compare pores between the two because the cuts are different. Funny, don't ever remember discussion on crumb shots before but most crumb shots show cuts that run across the grain. (exception cinnamon rolls) So unless the pullman is cut against the grain or the singled rolled loaf is cut lengthwise, I can't really compare crumb pores.

I can compare the cuts and have to agree that the pullman presents the crumb differently. Very much like we pull apart croissants or cinnamon rolls to show fluffiness.

How the bread is eaten has a lot to do with which crumb we are trying to achieve when we bite into the bread. Why is the "asian style" bread softer? I think much has to do with biting against the grain vs with the grain. A bread that flattens faster under pressure is perceived as soft. So some added softness can be achieved by simply changing the direction of the grain in the loaf. Changing the physics involved. Interesting....

Against the grain vs. with the grain would indeed presesnt the texture differently! Sort of like when we cut steak or other pieces of meat. Hmmm, can't believe I missed that important point. Thanks mini, you always give me food for thought!

Though we are also great crust fans, my half-Venetian husband would love to make as good Tramezzini at home, as he had them in Venice. And so far our trials to come up with the right kind of bread (Pan Carre) have not been very successful. But your Pan de Mie - the lighter one - looks just like it.

Hi txfarmer, i love your blog and have been following it for a while now, loved how your pullman bread looks like, i wonder if you can help me.

I have been making breads at home, by hand, which i very much enjoy, and have a Pullman loaf tin with a lid, measuring 13" x4" x4". I know you said that the total amount of flour should be 450g, but what about the rest of the ingredients?Do they remain the same quantity? Also i was wondering how the recipe would look like as a plain straightforward recipe, without the sourdough? I have recently tried the Pullman recipe of KA flour website, and while it was tasty, i found that with 700g of flour it was a bit dense, what i am after is a similar non sourdough recipe, that requires less flour, more resting time, and lighter and airier breads as a result. If you can also include detailed resting times and oven temp, it would be great!

First of all convert everything in original formula to baker's percentage, i.e. ingredient weight/flour total weight *100%, the percentage for each ingredient (including water) shoudl remain the same as you scale up and down the flour weight, now assume you want 450g of total flour, just take the percentage for each ingredient and *450g.

Secondly, to replace sourdough levain: sourdough levain is nothing but water+flour+yeast, so you can use 1% to 2% of instant yeast (meaning, (1% or 2%)*450g), then add the flour and water in the levain back into the total formula.

Alteratively you can just scale that KAF recipe from 700g to 450, by *450/700 for every ingredients.

I have few more questions though, in your levain you are also including a 15 g starter, do i need to add it to my recipe too, in terms of more flour and water? also, if i was to convert the KA flour recipe and try it, wouldn't i need to change the proofing times accordingly, and if so, by how much? i am guessing 6 hours of proofing time for this particular recipe would over proof the bread tremendously..

1) starter == 50% water + 50% flour + some amount of natural yeast which you would replace with instant dry yeast, when i say total flour, it already include flour in the starter, so you just need to add the water in the starter, the extra water in the levain to the main dough, then scale everything to 450 from 280. In this case total liquid would be 253g of water and 39g of milk. You other calculation seems to be right.

2) when you use instant yeast, the fermentation time would be much shorter than sourdough, no matter whether you scale my recipe or KAF's. If you use 1% yeast, the first rise would be around 2 hours, the 2nd rise would be around 45 to 60min, at 20 to 25C. It would be even shorter if you use more yeast, which I don't recommend - longer rise == better flavor. Don't watch the clock, watch the dough, you can judge whether the rise is done by looking at how much the dough has expanded, or better, by press it lightly and see how much and how fast it bounces back.

What I said about the proofing time apply to both active dry and instant yeast.

you can use milk to replace water and skip milk powder (might need a bit more since milk has less water than water, maybe need to X1.1 to 1.2). Be ware that milk powder and milk will impact bread differently, you will get a good bread, but not the same good bread.

The most softest, lightest and airiest bread ever! Thank You Txfarmer!

Hello everyone, and hi txfarmer, i have just made your sandwich bread, yeasted version, and it was truly divine! Everything i was looking for in a bread!Very very soft, the lightest and airiest bread i have ever seen, and i have tried many many recipes! I changed the ratio ever so slightly, so my recipe in baker's percentage looks like this:

The dough was so soft and airy to work with, it was the absolute kneading experience! I mixed everything but the salt and butter first, autolysed for 30 min, then added salt, kneaded for few minutes, and then added soft butter, then continued kneading until ready, It took me about 20 min of fast but gentle kneading by hand, to get that strong "windowpane" txfarmer is talking about.

The first rise took about 2 hours, of course it can take more or less, depending on the temp of your home, proofed overnight, and because my house was very cold the next morning, the second rise took about 2 1/2 hours, to get to 70% of the pan's height. baked for 45 min, in a pullman loaf tin, 12x4x4 inches, with the lid on.

I just wanted to say a big Thank you to txfarmer for all her patience, and prompt help! The softness, lightness and airiness of this bread cannot be shown or described, they need to be experienced first hand, photos don't do it any justice!

There is one more thing i would like to know though, txfarmer, is there any formula by which you determine how much flour to use for each pan size? I have some smaller pans, and some really odd sizes too, so i was wondering how to determine the amount of flour i use for each pan?Thank you!

To use a pan of different size, simpley calculate volume of both pans, you now know how much dough to use for the bigger pullman pan, so the new dough amount is (volume of new pan)/(volume of old pan)*(dough for old pan). If you want to make breads with high tops (rather than the flat pullman top), add 10% of dough and go from there.

You used bread flour that is quite high in gluten (and it shows perfectly well from the picture), but how to proceed with weak flours such as durum wheat or even white spelt? Contrary to bread flours it's very easy overkneading them: they have virtually no resistence and a very weak gluten. Every time I knead doughs with those flours I can't get past 5 minutes because they tend to literally dissolve.

The high gluten flour here provides volume, the more low gluten flour you add, the less volume you will get with the same amount of flour. So you need to either add more flour or be OK with a smaller bread.

I usually mix weak flour with bread flour, rather than use weak flour only. The more weak flour you use, obviously you need to knead "less", because the gluten network (window pane) won't be as strong, which is why the bread volume would suffer unless you add vital gluten.

However, I have done 100% whole wheat breads with similar techinique, the kneading process is similar, the windowpane is a tad weaker, a bit quicker to achieve, and I use some more flour for the same pan, but the end result is still very soft and full.

Thank you, txfarmer, for your description and photos of a strong gluten. I have failed in the past to get more than a weak window pane test; but thought it was sufficient.

Your article was soon followed by the arrival of my spanking new Electrolux Assistent. I used your recipe, modified a bit, and scaled up for a 2lb loaf pan. I kneaded at a medium high speed (sixth of eight speed indicators) with the roller and flipper. The dough passed your "glove" test in about 12 minutes, including several stops for testing.

The bread was, indeed, shredably soft with a delicious balance between sweet and sour.

It is painfully obviously that I hadn't been kneading nearly enough for a really good sandwich loaf. Since sandwich loaves are my principal home bread, I expect a considerable up-tick on the satisfaction meter.

Hello again txfarmer and Merry Christmass to you and everyone here on the Fresh Loaf!

Since i loved that recipe , i would like to try and make a wholemeal version. What percentage of wholemeal flour do you think i should use, i was thinking about 50 or 60 % wholemeal flour and the rest white flour? Ideally, the higher percentage, the better, without compromising on the softness of the bread would be nice... also, do i need to increase the hydration ?

The more whole meal flour you add, the bread will be less soft, have less volume, less fluffy, that's just the nature of the flour. When it's >30%, you will notice a quantitive change in kneading (absolutely need to autolyse longer, quicker to get to full developement, but the windowpane is much weaker), faster rising, more fragil and sensitive structure etc. So if you add 60% like you said, you will be dealing with a totally different animal. I am experimenting with 100% ww sandwich loaves, will post about it when I am happy with the results.

Here are some tall and fluffy 100% ww breads I made using "laurel's kitchen bread book", I am expereimenting with sourdough versions, but these use instant yeast and I am happy with the results. Again, good techniques are the key.

txfarmer, i did it! After few unsuccessful attempts, in which my bread didn't seem to want to rise in the oven, i made a batch today, in which it finally filled my pullman to the top! I think the problem was in my shaping, i didn't realise just how important shaping is, so i wasn't shaping my loafs very tightly. I also shaped it by the "double folding" method, and made sure they really are very strongly shaped, and it was a success! Thank you txfarmer for all your help and patience, and for the recipe too.

I have tried several times to make a enriched bread with only my starter and no yeast and it always turns out too dense and not light and fluffy. Would adding a bit of yeast make it lighter?

Also, seeing you are Chinese, I am wondering if you have made a Chinese bun dough using a starter? I have tried making Chinese BBQ pork buns and cocktail buns but the dough always turns out too dense. I would love it if you posted a recipe for Chinese bread or any tips or tricks! Your breads look wonderful, by the way!

1）The point of this post is to show that you can make a very light enriched bread using only starter, no commercial yeast. The problem is not the starter, it's the technique. If you don't knead it well, manage fermentation well, shape well, your bread won't be light even with commercial yeast.

2)The Pan de mie dough here can easily be shaped into an asian style soft bbq bun. Like I said the key is in the technique, not the formula. Those soft chinese buns are nothing but a light enriched dough with some butter, some sugar, maybe a little milk/cream. Different ratio would give you a slightly different texture, but the lightness is from good techniques. The "tricks" are all layed out in the original post: kneading, full rise but not over rise, shape well.

Here in Asia this is the normal bread. The softer the better. I am in the process of writing down my recipes for my children and have include one which use the TZ roux. From time to time I send the recipes to my daughters to make and test.

She made the TZ bread and to her horrow found it so delicious that she ate nearly the entire loaf. This is the danger of the "soft bread". She wishes that I had not told her of it and vows not to make it again.

We strictly make artisan type breads and our customers are in the main expats looking for European Bread. They cannot stand the local "soft" bread.

The local people complain that they can only eat one or two slices of my bread, but the entire loaf of the local "soft" bread. They tell me that there is something wrong with my bread.

So be careful of liking the soft bread too much, it seriously damages the waistline.

In all honesty, of course any recipe in weights can be converted, but here's the main problem: you end up with way too many instances of 1 Tbsp + a scant 1/2 tsp., etc. Almost every converted dry ingredient includes 'scant' or 'heaping' to be accurate, and then how accurate can that really be? Don't even get me started if there's things like eggs... While it might be fun struggling through all of that once, doing that every time you want to make that recipe would get tiresome. Getting a digital kitchen scale would be the actual easiest solution. They are extremely cheap compared to years ago, and it will change your baking forever. Your measuring cups and spoons will call you vile names every time you come into the kitchen. You just have to learn to ignore them. ; )

If you insist, though, use Google to find a few sites that will help you convert. I had a list of 2 or 3 in my favorites years ago, but have since lost them, as I stopped using them. I'm sure they are still there, though. Once you get the hang of it using a website to help you, it gets fairly easy, but measuring out all of those scants and heapings never gets easier.

Thank you Keith for going to the trouble of answering me. I do have a scale and did use a gram converter as well but I was still confused about the amounts of flour, I think it was ...or maybe it was the starter but none the less, I have a scale but was still having issues.

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