Curling Pick'em

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quote:Originally posted by watcher2 Let's play this chess game through to the end.

Out of country teams come to Canada to learn to play but most importantly learn to beat Canadian teams. Many, like Edin, are full sponsored and salaried by their government sports ministries. It is simply cheaper to sponsor a few teams than building curling in their home countries so this does nothing to build curling as a sport. Why....simple....the Olympics. The sports status of winning at the Olympics is very important in some countries like Sweden, Russia, China, etc.

The fact that these teams are better supported and funded will end up with them winning at the Olympics in the near future. At some point Canada will fall out of the metals entirely.

Much of the major Government money that comes to support Curling in Canada, CCA funding, CAC funding revolves around winning at the Olympics. Things like own the podium grants, etc.

If Canada fails to win at a couple of Olympics how long do you think it will take before that money will be diverted to other sports and curling support fades into the past?

Look to the end game!

And my tax and immigration comment was that this should be investigated....I made no conclusions and without information you shouldn't either.

At some point Canada will fall out of the metals entirely. Well that's bs, Canada will probably never fall out of the medals as they always have great teams.

Just over a year ago the women's team failed to medal at Worlds, which is the same teams as the Olympics. Also, a few years before that.

The point though was that Canada would not have a good enough team that could medal. Of course they don't always medal, but they always have a good chance at medaling, plus they usually do medal, they make the playoffs maybe all the time, so top 4 is assured, plus the national title might mean more than the Worlds to at least some teams.

They said the same about Blackberry.......when it was $200 a share.....look what a few years did! You are either moving forward or backward...there is no standing still. If you give people the opportunity to beat you...be assured...they will. The Olympics is not about sport...it's about prestige.

The interesting part of this post is that Watcher2 is absolutely right. Funding is attached to winning in International Sport. A significant part of Curling Funding is because we win at it. Allow teams from other countries to come here and get better is counter to what is good for Canadian Curling finances. That's just cold hard fact! Other countries only invite us to play there to learn from us and how to beat us. They are playing the long game.

Is that morally right? Of course it isn't. Most replies to this post are based morally on what it should be not what it is.

Take the moral high ground and pay the price! This is a dilemma business faces everyday.

I don't agree with banning international teams from playing here but I also don't agree that a team should carry a flag for a country that it doesn't play in either. Set the rule that to represent your country internationally you must play at least 50% of your games in that country. Seems reasonable to me anyway.

quote:Originally posted by Oldguy I don't agree with banning international teams from playing here but I also don't agree that a team should carry a flag for a country that it doesn't play in either. Set the rule that to represent your country internationally you must play at least 50% of your games in that country. Seems reasonable to me anyway.

The best athletes go where the competition and money are. The best hockey, basketball, and baseball players go to the US. Volleyball players go to Brazil or Europe. If you want curling to be an Olympic sport the teams are going to play their regular seasons where the best competition is, then put on their nation's jerseys when the time comes just like every other sport.

The only thing that makes sports interesting is competition. Who really watches women's world hockey when its nearly a foregone conclusion that one team from North America is winning gold and the other is winning silver. The gold medal game is the only thing worth watching.

Sports without competition are just crowning events nobody cares about. If nobody cares and one nation dominates continuously then its only a matter of time before the Olympics drops curling because its not internationally competitive (that is one of several criteria they use to evaluate each sport in the Olympics).

So go ahead, make it impossible for international teams from getting better. Ban international curlers from Canada in some Trumpian like act of curling immigration wall building. Strip Canadians who dare coach international teams of their citizenship and brand them as traitors. Sit in your lazyboy and watch the gold medals fall only to Canada every year. Before long you'll be alone watching it. Eventually, the event you care so much about will be taken from you. Ask baseball and softball what that was like. No sport is safe, particularly long drawn out events with no competition.

If this is a sport, then it needs competition to thrive. Without it, its just a niche game that only a really small number of people care about. Competitive exposure grows the game, single nation dominance kills it. Its just that simple.

An interesting sideline. The European Masters can't attract all the top Euro teams....especially on the Women's side.

Guess their all in Canada.

Maybe we could change things so that all the teams that play here can carry a Canadian flag with their home country emblem in the centre of the maple leaf? Is that now politically correct? Just a suggestion!

This great concern for the state of Canadian curling and for the great threat of international teams is way too off the mark, here are the facts people, Canada has quite a few great curling team's, just look at the rankings, a few are well funded, some of these international nations only have 1 team to depend on, so they put all their eggs in one basket hoping for the best, and it doesn't always work out, whereas Canada has plenty of backup, yes of course these international nations try to be the best, but it's still only a handful of teams in total at most compared to Canada, as I said before, at this years Womens worlds I'd say the other teams other than Canada with a good chance at medaling were Sweden and Scotland, so that means Canada still had a great chance at at least 3rd place, but Homan is a pretty clear #1 right now, so it's still barely any great teams from around the world, the world of curling is not big, Canada still has a huge share of the market, at the men's world the only team that could compete with Canada was Sweden IMO, plus most of these countries still have to play nationals before the Worlds, so they still might not end up sending their top teams.

Curling should stop having international teams. After that it should only be played in Canada with Canadian teams and Curling Canada should withdraw from the World Curling Federation, because the other countries don't play fair. After all, we don't really care that much about World's. Our national championship is the only thing that matters.

quote:Originally posted by Oldguy The interesting part of this post is that Watcher2 is absolutely right. Funding is attached to winning in International Sport. A significant part of Curling Funding is because we win at it. Allow teams from other countries to come here and get better is counter to what is good for Canadian Curling finances. That's just cold hard fact! Other countries only invite us to play there to learn from us and how to beat us. They are playing the long game.

Is that morally right? Of course it isn't. Most replies to this post are based morally on what it should be not what it is.

I completely fail to see how teams from other countries wanting to play Canadian teams (either in Canada or in their own country) so that they can improve is 'morally wrong'. It is not wrong by any logical stretch - it is actually very intelligent and practical to arrange to compete against the best in order to raise one's own standard.

quote:Originally posted by Oldguy I don't agree with banning international teams from playing here but I also don't agree that a team should carry a flag for a country that it doesn't play in either. Set the rule that to represent your country internationally you must play at least 50% of your games in that country. Seems reasonable to me anyway.

Hardly reasonable... more like ridiculous.
There is absolutely nothing wrong with any individual or team carrying the flag of the country they were born and raised in, and in which they learned their sport. This simply makes perfect sense.

You're not basing your perspectives on nearly as much common sense as an 'old guy' with experience should.

__________________"It is easy in the world to live after the world’s opinion; it is easy in solitude to live after our own... but the great man is he who, in the midst of the crowd, keeps with perfect sweetness the independence of solitude." ~ Ralph Waldo Emerson

quote:Originally posted by On The Nose
I completely fail to see how teams from other countries wanting to play Canadian teams (either in Canada or in their own country) so that they can improve is 'morally wrong'. It is not wrong by any logical stretch - it is actually very intelligent and practical to arrange to compete against the best in order to raise one's own standard.

Hardly reasonable... more like ridiculous.
There is absolutely nothing wrong with any individual or team carrying the flag of the country they were born and raised in, and in which they learned their sport. This simply makes perfect sense.

You're not basing your perspectives on nearly as much common sense as an 'old guy' with experience should.

Read the posts more carefully. They referred to the system as morally RIGHT but fiscally wrong.

Stoner--one thing I have to strongly dispute is that any teams in Canada are well funded, All teams, especially the top ones are very, very poorly funded!

The lowest salary in the NHL is $450,000. There are 23 players on a team and 30 teams (31 next season). So if you are the 690th ranked player you get $450,000, expenses and all travel paid, all coaching paid, all training facilities paid.

If you are the best curling team in Canada all four players might get $450,000 before expenses, coaching, etc. I really don't know the actual numbers (ask Sweden) but I would suspect it would cost somewhere between $750,000 and a $1M to PROPERLY fund a Curling team for world play including all expenses and travel. The very fact that most players have a full time job is an indication of how poorly curling is funded. We fund organizations like the Canadian Curling Association and Canadian Coaching Organization better than we fund the players of the sport.

Read the posts more carefully. They referred to the system as morally RIGHT but fiscally wrong.

I re-read your post in question a few times. It reads as if you are expressing that it is morally wrong for teams from other countries to come to Canada to improve their curling, and for other countries to invite Canadian teams there also so that their teams can improve by playing Canadian teams.
And I say that it is not morally wrong at all - it is simply a practical and intelligent way for teams from other countries to elevate their standard.

I quote from your post:"The interesting part of this post is that Watcher2 is absolutely right. Funding is attached to winning in International Sport. A significant part of Curling Funding is because we win at it. Allow teams from other countries to come here and get better is counter to what is good for Canadian Curling finances. That's just cold hard fact! Other countries only invite us to play there to learn from us and how to beat us. They are playing the long game.
Is that morally right? Of course it isn't."

__________________"It is easy in the world to live after the world’s opinion; it is easy in solitude to live after our own... but the great man is he who, in the midst of the crowd, keeps with perfect sweetness the independence of solitude." ~ Ralph Waldo Emerson