Hagart, when you quoted me above you ommitted a very crucial word: ostensible. In other words we interpret such experiences as precognitive but they are nothing but coincidences. You won't know it has "predicted" something until it happens.

People also overlook the fact that the waking mind is able to make guesses about the future based on past experience, perception, and intelligence. So why not the dreaming mind? If we didn't we wouldn't have survived as a species. Guessing and then happening to be right, whether this is done consciously or unconsciously (sleeping or awake), isn't paranormally predicting the future.

And those who say only the people who haven't experienced it deem it impossible are talking out of their arse. I've experienced an apparent precog once (even opened a topic about it here and on OBE4U) and yet I don't jump the gun and say precognition is real because of it. The renowned researcher Susan Blackmore has had all sorts of experiences and she remains sceptical.

Dejavus are another phenomenon which has been studied and found to be, more likely than not because the mundane has a tendency to have more explanatory power, a glitch in the brain when mnemonic info is relayed twice to consciousness and hence why the familiarity effect. Isn't it curious that we say, "I think I've been here before" and yet we still have a feeling of misplacement.

In all these phenomena, it is typical for people to let their imaginations run wild as they are fuelled by wishful thinking. Typical for science to be ignored because it is convenient for self-interest.

Once again, I will restate: those who say precognition is real have failed to demonstrate its veracity. Therefore, the sceptic has nothing to disprove or debunk. (Refer to my court analogy above if your ratiocination needs aid.)

Nobody is "sweeping anything under the rug." This is nonsense. These phenomena are studied and so far there is no evidence of anything paranormal going on. In fact, what we have seen is that such ILLUSORY or COINCIDENTAL occurrences are not surprising at all. Like I said, statistically, they should occur. They just aren't what fantasists think they are.

Case closed. Come back when you have compelling evidence that we can test.:-/

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"Empty cognizance of one taste, suffused with knowing, is your unmistaken nature, the uncontrived original state. when not altering what is, allow it to be as it is, and the awakened state is right now spontaneously present."

HAGART wrote:I'm on both sides, and still don't have proof of either one. ...But I stand by what I said earlier, and it changes the whole definition of 'precognitive'. So what if it's by chance, it was still predictive of future events, and our pathetic ego-self-identity is just a tip of an iceberg of knowledge that few realize. With all that subliminal knowledge we have 'upstairs', in the attic of our minds, why can't we foretell future events like the weather. It's just cause and effect after all.

I agree with you on the above, HAGART! It's funny, I use the same imagery: I also often think of us humans as the tiny tip of a large iceberg.

I can also add the following speculation that I like to bend my mind with:

The giant part of us that is 'upstairs', as you say, might be outside the space-time continuum where the pathetic 'tip-of-the-iceberg' resides. So from the perspective of the 'upstairs being', everything and all times might be accessible: just probe here and there when needed, and send 'a message' down to the pathetic 'tip-of-the-iceberg' who's having the physical experience, even though it often isn't even listening.

Some talk about the ego-self stuck in 3D space-time as a 'biological deep-diving suit' to have a very focused experience of perceiving one tiny slice of the 3D space-time through the five senses, while the larger self is like a 'stream of consciousness' outside from it, including all of it. And by space-time continuum, it is not just one set of historical happening, but a gazillion of parallel ones with tons of different potentials, including past, present and future. Like the ultimate video game.

Outside space-time? what does that even mean? I'll tell you what doesn't occupy any space and time: nothing. Something that doesn't occupy any space is nowhere. Something that doesn't occupy any time hasn't even begun any kind of duration.

Conclusion: anything outside (whatever this means in this context) space-time does not exist.

[ Post made via Android ]

"Empty cognizance of one taste, suffused with knowing, is your unmistaken nature, the uncontrived original state. when not altering what is, allow it to be as it is, and the awakened state is right now spontaneously present."

Summerlander wrote:... Conclusion: anything outside (whatever this means in this context) space-time does not exist.

I admire your certainty, Summerlander.

If you are interested, below are some references about quantum non-locality, where 'something' seems to be happening outside space-time.

The below is in no way intended to support my wild speculation above, I hate to highjack quantum science to support woo-woo ideas. But since you seem so convinced nothing exists beyond space-time, and you like science and scientific evidence, maybe you'll find the below intriguing.

http://www.quantumphil.org/

"The nonlocal correlations cannot be explained by any history in spacetime, they come from outside spacetime. ... The single-photon space-like antibunching experiment (proposed 2010 and completed 2012) demonstrates that the most fundamental principle ruling the material world, the conservation of energy, requires nonlocal coordination of detection outcomes, i.e., non-material agency from outside space-time."

And here are the references, all peer-reviewed published in physics journals, some of them available for free on-line:

I've looked at quantum mechanics. I have books on it. Like you said about "nonlocality," it SEEMS. I'm not jumping to conclusions based on what seems, especially when the theories within the field of quantum physics are numerous. We know little to make tall assumptions. All we know about quantum theory is that in practice it works and it needn't the suggestion of a supernatural order at work.

I could also tell you about complex "gravitational well" theories within the cosmos where nonlocality needn't enter the equation. (And quantum gravity is something we know very little about.) They are relational theories that certainly exclude suggestions of agents lying outside space-time (a proposition which makes no sense to me). If we are talking about a multiverse that influences individual universes, then we are still talking about the fabric of reality as a whole, something involving space-time (however multidimensional it may be). Nothing external and supernatural.

The issue remains. If you are going to claim that quantum mechanics enables the reality of precognitive dreams, show us HOW. From where I stand, even though there is superposition, entanglement, wave-particle duality, and uncertainty on a small scale, things get pretty restricted the larger you get.

I'm not talking out of my arse here and I wouldn't even if I hadn't read about quantum theory. It is very simple: show the sceptics something substantial that can be tested. Something of a nitty-gritty nature open to falsifiability. Then you might sway them.

The argument from interpreting dreams as you see them is simply moot.

[ Post made via Android ]

"Empty cognizance of one taste, suffused with knowing, is your unmistaken nature, the uncontrived original state. when not altering what is, allow it to be as it is, and the awakened state is right now spontaneously present."

Naw, I'm not out to prove anything to anyone.People can write me off they they want, no big deal.See, I am not trying to change anyone's Faith; I have enough to do just figuring out my reality in the time I have left.

However, on this forum people state their experiences and (one, an person, the reader) can believe them or not.I believe people are innocent until proven guilty, so the burden of proof falls on the people who are saying they are lying.

I don't care if people believe the truth or not. If they choose to reject the synergy of this vast existence, that only makes me sad.But denial is also their right. It can even be healthy, that's why there is memory repression.

But people should be allowed to reveal what happens to them without worrying about criticism or getting ganged up on.That's what Forums are for.

"If you believe that you can or if you believe that you can't - you are right." - Henry Ford.

Nobody is accusing anyone of lying. We are not even denying that such experiences happen. We are only disputing their true nature. We merely point out that people either misinterpret what they perceive and jump the gun.

It works both ways when it comes to freedom of expression. It is not a crime to be critical or sceptical. You are allowed to report your experiences and express what you believe as much as we are allowed to comment on them based on what we think. And you should be grateful for the constructive criticism promulgated in these forums. So far in this thread we have raised awareness of certain subjects which are somewhat relevant to the topic and scientifically help to get a better understanding of what is happening and expand one's mind. Nothing wrong with that and offence is certainly not intended. No need to throw your toys out of the pram.

[ Post made via Android ]

"Empty cognizance of one taste, suffused with knowing, is your unmistaken nature, the uncontrived original state. when not altering what is, allow it to be as it is, and the awakened state is right now spontaneously present."