Honestly, I'll never understand why any comic book company automatically assumes that "real world/modern day" changes to a character equates into those said characters becoming such jackasses with a lot of angst attached to them.lol

I haven't read a lot of Ultimate comics (and that's probably a good thing) but I noticed their characters in that universe are more raw, proud, savage, egotistic. Ultimate Iron Man is just weird for me, and the Maximoff twins are...
Ugh.
I'd compare it to mythology wherein the Greek gods were more or less normal (like the 616 characters) but when the Romans adopted them, they became more powerful and savage (Ultimates.)

That's a pretty damn good comparison. I'm able to enjoy both interpretations since I remember that they have nothing to do with each other. I enjoy the Ultimates in the grand scheme of the Ultimates universe because Spider-man isn't so bad and neither are the X-men. So it's interesting seeing The Ultimates come in as this SWAT team of jerks whenever there's a big issue. Especially when they're competing with other heroes. Avengers vs. X-men was pretty believable in the Ultimate universe because of it. They were already at odds.

Ultimate Cap may not be a likable character but he sure is an interesting one.

__________________"Why are you trying to kill my kid?! You know what? I don't care. You got some beef with him or me? Whatever. You trying to start a rogues gallery of some sort? I ain't got half as much patience as Batman or The Flash. If he dies...so do you." - Green Arrow

What a fun thread! I'm curious now to see the Ultimates, just for the comparison.

I think the reason that "modern interpretations" of classic superheros got gritty, angsty and jackass-ish is because WE (the next generation of fans) kind of live there, as a whole. We don't have much to believe in, and have been kind of steeped in the futility of our existence... it's become a pervasive topic in movies, music, etc. EVERYTHING is a shade of grey, and unless you're one of those people who can totally polarize everything so they don't have to feel bad about anything... well, it's tough.

Because he's a "Patriotic" hero, the folks writing for Cap have some unique challenges, even. America? Yeah, well, there's a lot of folks that don't feel so good about being Americans right now. WE could be considered the bullies by some points of view, and it's uncomfortable. It's hard to discuss some of this stuff without delving into politics and/or religion. Neither topic scares me, but I don't want to piss anyone off on the board, either. There's SO much risky but interesting stuff they could do with the upcoming CA movies. If there's risky political topic I'd like to see someone champion (in real life OR in a movie!) it'd be bi-partisanship. Polarization of political issues serves NO one. I'll shut up about this now. I think too much.

We don't solve our problems with violence, even when we maybe should. Boys get the short end of the stick in school because we can't let them be boys... better medicate 'em than let them run it off! Bullies get a stern talking to, instead of a swift kick in @ss from one of their peers. My god, if I were a kid now as opposed to back then I'd be arrested for some of the beat-downs I dished out.... because they punish BOTH kids who fight, not just the instigator.

Enjoying this discussion. Might be fun to start an "ethics of superheros" thread. Sorry if I offend anyone, but I believe honest discourse is the root of all compromise and positive change.

What a fun thread! I'm curious now to see the Ultimates, just for the comparison.

I think the reason that "modern interpretations" of classic superheros got gritty, angsty and jackass-ish is because WE (the next generation of fans) kind of live there, as a whole. We don't have much to believe in, and have been kind of steeped in the futility of our existence... it's become a pervasive topic in movies, music, etc. EVERYTHING is a shade of grey, and unless you're one of those people who can totally polarize everything so they don't have to feel bad about anything... well, it's tough.

Because he's a "Patriotic" hero, the folks writing for Cap have some unique challenges, even. America? Yeah, well, there's a lot of folks that don't feel so good about being Americans right now. WE could be considered the bullies by some points of view, and it's uncomfortable. It's hard to discuss some of this stuff without delving into politics and/or religion. Neither topic scares me, but I don't want to piss anyone off on the board, either. There's SO much risky but interesting stuff they could do with the upcoming CA movies. If there's risky political topic I'd like to see someone champion (in real life OR in a movie!) it'd be bi-partisanship. Polarization of political issues serves NO one. I'll shut up about this now. I think too much.

We don't solve our problems with violence, even when we maybe should. Boys get the short end of the stick in school because we can't let them be boys... better medicate 'em than let them run it off! Bullies get a stern talking to, instead of a swift kick in @ss from one of their peers. My god, if I were a kid now as opposed to back then I'd be arrested for some of the beat-downs I dished out.... because they punish BOTH kids who fight, not just the instigator.

Enjoying this discussion. Might be fun to start an "ethics of superheros" thread. Sorry if I offend anyone, but I believe honest discourse is the root of all compromise and positive change.

People are endlessly fascinating. Individuals or "mob mind" alike.

Say what you will about the. 'Ultimates', but it was a fun story.
Unmistakably Mark Millar, so you have an idea of what you're in for.
Some Complaints I see anymore are like going to a Bay movie and being surprised there were so many explosions.
But yeah, I'm firmly a 616 Cap fan myself. I love the action and "oh s***" moments in the Ultimates tho.
I'm glad the films were basically able to marry the best of both worlds into the MCU. (heavy emphasis being 616)
Definitely check out the Ultimates.
As much of a 'douche' that Cap can come off as in that series, he STILL emerged as my favorite character.
He still maintained that aura of "he's not the most POWERFUL guy in the room, by any means, but he could very well be the most dangerous."
I suggest with sticking to the Mark Millar/ Bryan Hitch run if you do decide to pick these up.

__________________"On Olympus, we measure wisdom against Athena...speed against Hermes...power against Zeus. But we measure courage...against Captain America."

What a fun thread! I'm curious now to see the Ultimates, just for the comparison.

I think the reason that "modern interpretations" of classic superheros got gritty, angsty and jackass-ish is because WE (the next generation of fans) kind of live there, as a whole. We don't have much to believe in, and have been kind of steeped in the futility of our existence... it's become a pervasive topic in movies, music, etc. EVERYTHING is a shade of grey, and unless you're one of those people who can totally polarize everything so they don't have to feel bad about anything... well, it's tough.

Because he's a "Patriotic" hero, the folks writing for Cap have some unique challenges, even. America? Yeah, well, there's a lot of folks that don't feel so good about being Americans right now. WE could be considered the bullies by some points of view, and it's uncomfortable. It's hard to discuss some of this stuff without delving into politics and/or religion. Neither topic scares me, but I don't want to piss anyone off on the board, either. There's SO much risky but interesting stuff they could do with the upcoming CA movies. If there's risky political topic I'd like to see someone champion (in real life OR in a movie!) it'd be bi-partisanship. Polarization of political issues serves NO one. I'll shut up about this now. I think too much.

We don't solve our problems with violence, even when we maybe should. Boys get the short end of the stick in school because we can't let them be boys... better medicate 'em than let them run it off! Bullies get a stern talking to, instead of a swift kick in @ss from one of their peers. My god, if I were a kid now as opposed to back then I'd be arrested for some of the beat-downs I dished out.... because they punish BOTH kids who fight, not just the instigator.

Enjoying this discussion. Might be fun to start an "ethics of superheros" thread. Sorry if I offend anyone, but I believe honest discourse is the root of all compromise and positive change.

People are endlessly fascinating. Individuals or "mob mind" alike.

I think you definitey should. Ultimate cap is an interesting character for sure.

Like i said earlier, he's more of a soldier than a superhero.He's patriotic to the Nth degree! and yeah...it is possible to be a good soldier/superhero AND a good man, but the thing is, the ultimate cap really isn't interested in being a 'good person'. All he cares about is being a good soldier.

He see things in black and white, no grey area. he doesn't do 'angst' or agonize in every decisions he had to make. Not conflicted in any way.If ultimate hawkeye did what his movie verion done, the ultimate cap would break his neck without a second thought.

Ironically, the ultimate cap is the one that still display those old fashioned moral and values, albeit a bit more exagerrated...whereas the regular Marvel universe cap has more or less moved past that stage.

I remember an old issues of the ultimates, where cap has a conversation with The Falcon-a black superhero- about civil right movements. Or that one time where he complained about how back in the old days, it's considered a good thing if you say you believe in god, but today it's considered 'lame'

...All those little things made me like the character more.

oh..and he has a cooler costume

Anyway...if you really serious about knowing more about the Ultimate cap...

I think you definitey should. Ultimate cap is an interesting character for sure.

Like i said earlier, he's more of a soldier than a superhero.He's patriotic to the Nth degree! and yeah...it is possible to be a good soldier/superhero AND a good man, but the thing is, the ultimate cap really isn't interested in being a 'good person'. All he cares about is being a good soldier.

He see things in black and white, no grey area. he doesn't do 'angst' or agonize in every decisions he had to make. Not conflicted in any way.If ultimate hawkeye did what his movie verion done, the ultimate cap would break his neck without a second thought.

Ironically, the ultimate cap is the one that still display those old fashioned moral and values, albeit a bit more exagerrated...whereas the regular Marvel universe cap has more or less moved past that stage.

I remember an old issues of the ultimates, where cap has a conversation with The Falcon-a black superhero- about civil right movements. Or that one time where he complained about how back in the old days, it's considered a good thing if you say you believe in god, but today it's considered 'lame'

...All those little things made me like the character more.

oh..and he has a cooler costume

Anyway...if you really serious about knowing more about the Ultimate cap...

I'll check it out... I don't think I'll like this version as well, but it'll be a fun comparison. It sounds like the Ultimate version was where I'd gotten my initial opinion on the character as being not worth my time.

Killing a comrade under the thrall of an enemy is a tough call. If you have NO other options for damage control, I could see it...

I actually liked the first two volumes of Ultimates. I mean its grim and gritty, deeply so, but it actually manages to be fairly well written and fun, in a dark and grimy way. Sort of like a somewhat more optimistic take on Stormwatch.

IMO, this was purely unintentional. Mark Millar was *aiming* for over the top self-parody, he just missed somehow.

Just saw avengers last night (4th time) and seeing as Cap is my favorite avenger, I'm most critical of what they did with him in the film than any other character.

I loved TFA but still had my doubt about Evans until seeing Avengers, which made me realize TFA was an origin story therefore the character of Captain America is not fully developed yet (in fact it's just getting off the ground, as is Thor). One thing I love about the MCU is that since the actors signed multiple picture deals, they can develop the characters slowly over the course of the 6 films instead of feeling the need to try and give us a fully grown Cap in the first or second installment. In fact, we only got to see Rogers officially suited up as Captain America for 45 mins of TFA.

The Avengers definitely took Cap a step in the right direction and Chris Evans' performance blew me away. His demeanor and delivery were spot on and his old fashioned dialogue didn't hurt either. Exactly how I pictured Steve Rogers would be. Now that Evans has the part down, I'm even more ecstatic as to how his character will continue to mature and deepen in the sequels to come, and I'm confident that by the end of it all, we will see a fully developed Captain America who lives up to the hero from the comics.

The only issues I have with the character from Avengers is Chris Evans' size. The first scene we see Rogers in (the gym) was clearly filmed during or just after TFA was filmed, and they did so for a reason. They must have assumed Evans would lose a lot of mass before filming TA and they were right. Thanks to this scene being filmed back then, the audience sees how big Rogers is at the beginning of Avengers, so they assume he is that size throughout the entire movie, but clearly he is not.
I've managed to get past my dislike of the halloween costume they went with for this film, but I believe if Evans' had maintained the muscle he built for TFA, the costume would be less of an issue for most people.
I wouldn't call this an issue but the only other thing that distracted me in this film was not the cowl, which I didn't mind, but it was Caps patchy neck area. It looks fine without the cowl, but when it's on, the area where the cowl meets the neck of the suit looks straight up like crap. I assume this will be fixed in Cap 2 as well as giving him a costume update, preferably the tactical body armor look from a few pages back (esp if Evans can't get back in the weight room).

All issues aside, I am more than satisfied with the Captain America we were given in the Avengers. While I thought he may have been shortchanged on the action scenes, seeing as this is a 'team-up' movie, I think it may have been the right move keeping the focus on Cap's leadership and intangibles and saving his really badass action scenes for the sequels.

I actually liked the first two volumes of Ultimates. I mean its grim and gritty, deeply so, but it actually manages to be fairly well written and fun, in a dark and grimy way. Sort of like a somewhat more optimistic take on Stormwatch.

IMO, this was purely unintentional. Mark Millar was *aiming* for over the top self-parody, he just missed somehow.

I agree with you there. I read the third volume and didn't like how they turned up the "trying to be different" vibe way too much. I'm just not sure that Loeb had a good enough grasp of who the Ultimate characters are to write them in a series.

I actually liked the first two volumes of Ultimates. I mean its grim and gritty, deeply so, but it actually manages to be fairly well written and fun, in a dark and grimy way. Sort of like a somewhat more optimistic take on Stormwatch.

IMO, this was purely unintentional. Mark Millar was *aiming* for over the top self-parody, he just missed somehow.

yeah that was his intention alright. This is mostly apparent by the way he writes ultimate cap.

I remember an old interview with him when the Ultimates series just came out. Basically said that while the regular cap is the personification of American morals and values...his cap was supposed to be the personification of America's foreign policy...or something to that effect. That's why his cap is portrayed as a gung-ho millitary guy, patriotic to the Nth degree...and can come across as douchebag or even a racist sometimes ( like that zinger about France)

That seems to be a general wish of everyone...I think it will definitely be addressed in Cap 2, as he will have a whole film to himself (well mostly).

However, The Avengers was undeniably a step in the right direction...there were definitely some good action pieces with him, he just needs more!

Again i agree with a lot of you that Cap was done really well. In The First Avenger i liked how they showed he had a picture memory which is on key, his strength and speed although i think the scene where he had to jump from one end of the catwalk to the other was a bit hyped, i'm sure its a distance Cap wouldn't have a problem covering. In the Avengers he wasn't a focal point but we got teased a bit with a little fight scene between him and Loki which was pretty cool but yes Cap needs an epic fight scene. The Hulk has had his with the Abomination, Thor, the aliens and comically Loki. Iron Man saved the day. Hawkeye and Black Widow was a surprise in a good way at how badass they are. Thor obviously had his go with Iron Man and Hulk. So Cap needs a good complete defining fight scene where we can point to and say "yes he's the man". If you build up the character as a legend please give him a legendary fight scene to go with.

Again i agree with a lot of you that Cap was done really well. In The First Avenger i liked how they showed he had a picture memory which is on key, his strength and speed although i think the scene where he had to jump from one end of the catwalk to the other was a bit hyped, i'm sure its a distance Cap wouldn't have a problem covering. In the Avengers he wasn't a focal point but we got teased a bit with a little fight scene between him and Loki which was pretty cool but yes Cap needs an epic fight scene. The Hulk has had his with the Abomination, Thor, the aliens and comically Loki. Iron Man saved the day. Hawkeye and Black Widow was a surprise in a good way at how badass they are. Thor obviously had his go with Iron Man and Hulk. So Cap needs a good complete defining fight scene where we can point to and say "yes he's the man". If you build up the character as a legend please give him a legendary fight scene to go with.

Agreed. IMO he needs a good ol Mano a Mano bout with someone similar to his power level. It should not be too easy so that he just mops the floor with no effort, nor should it be against someone clearly out of his league, like Loki, cuz as we saw he won't give up but he will still be handled. To see a really legendary fight with Captain America, we need to see him fight someone similar so that his opponent pushes him yet we can still see the full potential of the super solider. The Red Skull is actually ideal, but it was not a strong aspect of CA:TFA. So either the Red Skull returns (which is likely) or someone like Baron Zemo

Agreed. IMO he needs a good ol Mano a Mano bout with someone similar to his power level. It should not be too easy so that he just mops the floor with no effort, nor should it be against someone clearly out of his league, like Loki, cuz as we saw he won't give up but he will still be handled. To see a really legendary fight with Captain America, we need to see him fight someone similar so that his opponent pushes him yet we can still see the full potential of the super solider. The Red Skull is actually ideal, but it was not a strong aspect of CA:TFA. So either the Red Skull returns (which is likely) or someone like Baron Zemo

I agree. If Batman fought against Superman's villains, it'd expose his flaws and the fact that in terms of power level, he's really not Superman's equal. That's why a hero's rogue gallery is tailored to that hero's strength and weakness, so it'd be an equal playing field.

__________________"I know I'm asking a lot, but the price of freedom is high, it always has been, and it's a price I'm willing to pay. And if I'm the only one, then so be it. But I'm willing to bet I'm not." - Captain America

Both are good, but I like the suit he wears in The Avengers a lot more. It's so much more comic bookish. I love the cowl.

*runs*

Agreed I'm still lil offended Joss made Caps Cowl rip off..the outfit really did looked good on screen lol..that does make me wonder if hes going to adress that problem in Cap 2 about making the cowl more secure on his head ..

Agreed I'm still lil offended Joss made Caps Cowl rip off..the outfit really did looked good on screen lol..that does make me wonder if hes going to adress that problem in Cap 2 about making the cowl more secure on his head ..

Why would he want to, though? Not like he's worried about a secret identity, and if someone is close enough to rip it off, and powerful enough to do so rather than just getting punched away, Steve has bigger problems than losing his cowl and whatever degree of protection it provides.

I'm very curious to see where they take Rogers in Cap2 . I'm going to assume that they'll probably introduce Falcon and Sharon Carter. But I really hope they have Winter Solider.

With how they "killed off" Bucky in CA:TFA, I assume that they'll address Winter Soldier somehow. They also mentioned WS on the extras of the Blu-ray a couple times so that sort of shows where they might take future Cap movies.

Well it was set up so they could have a WS film (I don't have the bluray special of Cap yet).
Joe wants to make it, Cap found Buck on a table in a LAB more than likely being experimented on by Arnim, Bucky fell into a ravin with A LOT of snow so I'm sure the same process that happen to Steve could happen to Bucky.
HECK even Peggy's longevity could be atributited to being around, and working on the Super Soldier Syrum just like Nick in the 616 universe being around Steve so long.