Bruce Byfield's blog

Why I’m staying with Debian

Setting up a new workstation is the easiest time to choose a new GNU/Linux distribution. Having just installed Fedora 7 on my laptop so I’d have an RPM-based system available for my work, I seriously considered ending my five-year endorsement of Debian on my workstation. Perhaps I should follow the crowd and go to Ubuntu? Some other DEB-based distribution? Maybe Slackware or Gentoo to grab a bit of geek-cred? But after debating my choices for a couple of days, I decided to stick with Debian for both technical and philosophical reasons.

Oh, a small part of my decision was convenience. Over the years, I’ve built up three pages of notes of exactly what I need to install, configure, and modify to customize my workstation exactly as I prefer. Probably, I could port most of these notes to another distribution, but I would have to change some of the configuration notes, as well as the names of some of the packages. For better or worse, I’m comfortable with Debian — sometimes, I think, too comfortable.

However, a larger part of my decision is practical. Not too many years ago, Debian held a decided advantage because its DEB packages, if properly prepared, were one of the few that automatically resolved dependencies when you added software. That’s no longer true, of course, but Debian’s policy of packaging everything from kernels to drivers means that many installation tasks are far easier than in most distributions.

Moreover, I appreciate Debian’s policy of including recommended and related packages in the descriptions of packages. These suggestions help me to discover software that I might otherwise miss, and often help the packages I originally wanted to run better.

Another advantage of Debian is its repository system. As many probably know, Debian has three main repositories: the rock-solid, often less than cutting edge stable repository, the reasonably safe testing, and the more risky unstable. For those who really want the cutting edge, there is also the experimental repository. When a new package is uploaded, it moves through these repositories, eventually slipping into stable when it has been thoroughly tested. Few, if any distributions, are more reliable than Debian stable, and even Debian unstable is generally about as safe as the average distribution.

What this system means for users is that they can choose their preferred level of risk, either for a particular package or for their system as a whole. For instance, by looking at the online package descriptions, you can see what dependencies a package in unstable has, and decide whether installing it is worth the risk of possible damage to their system, or else judge how easily they can recover from any problems. This system means that most experienced Debian users have a mixed system, with packages from more than one repository — an arrangement that is far preferable to blindly updating because an icon in the notification tray tells you that updates are available. It also means that official releases don’t mean very much; usually, by the time one arrives, you usually have everything that it has to offer anyway.

In much the same way, each individual repository is arranged according to the degree of software freedom you desire. If you want, you can set up your system only to install from the main section, which includes only free software. Alternatively, you can also use the contrib section, and install software that is free in itself but which relies on unfree software to run, such as Java applications (at least until Java finishes becoming free). Similarly, in the non-free section, you can choose software that is free for the download but is released restrictive licenses, such as Adobe’s Acrobat and Flash players. Although my own preference is to stay with main, I appreciate that Debian arranges its repositories so that I can make my own choice.

Almost as important as Debian’s technical excellence and arrangements is the community around the distribution. This community is one of the most outspoken and free-thinking in free and open source software. This behavior is a source of irritation to many, including Ian Murdock, the founder of the distribution and my former boss, who thinks that the distribution would run more smoothly if its organization was more corporate. And, admittedly, reaching consensus or, in some cases, voting on a policy can be slow, and has problems scaling — problems that Debian members are well-aware of and gradually developing mechanism to correct without changing the basic nature of the community.

Yet it seems to me that Debian is, in many ways, the logical outcome of free software principles. If you empower users, then of course they are going to want a say in what is happening. And, despite the problems, Debian works, even if it seems somewhat punctilious and quarrelsome at times, insisting on a standard of purity that, once or twice, has even been greater than the Free Software Foundation’s. The community is really a daring social experiment, and its independence deserves far more admiration than criticism.

Of course, I could get many of the same advantages, especially the technical ones, from Ubuntu, Debian’s most successful descendant. But Debian has had longer to perfect its technical practices, and, if the Ubuntu community is politer, its model of democracy is further removed from the town meeting than Debian’s. Certainly, nobody can demand a recall of Mark Shuttleworth, Ubuntu’s founder.

Which brings up another point: I’m reluctant to trust my computer to an eccentric millionaire, no matter how benevolent. This feeling has nothing to do with Mark Shuttleworth himself, whom I’ve never met, and who, from his writing, seems a sincere advocate of free software. But one of the reasons I was first attracted to free software was because, in the past, my computing had been affected by the whims of corporation, notably IBM’s handling of OS/2 and Adobe’s neglect of FrameMaker. Trusting my computing to an individual, no matter how decent, seems no better. I’d rather trust it to a community.

And Debian, for all its endless squabbles and the posturing of some of its developers, has overall proven itself a community I can trust. So, at least for the time being, I’ll be sticking with Debian.

31 Responses

Should you be up to another install at any time, give Arch Linux a try.
It’s built on KISS and its package management surpasses Debian’s by light years.
No suggestions, though. You have to know what you need.

Interesting read, and I agree with what you’ve said. I’m a user of Debian and Ubuntu right now.

The one thing I wanted to point out is that Shuttleworth’s/Canonical’s approach with Ubuntu is to try and establish and empower the community in such a way that it can serve as a balance for the company’s commercial aspirations. I was reading a article a few weeks back where Shuttleworth was talking about that specifically, but, unfortunately, I can’t seem to find it right now. But the general idea was that with things like the Community Council or the Ubuntu Foundation, if they can establish the right balance, then when Canonical turns its focus more to business customers, the community in place will be separate and strong enough that it can keep the company’s actions in line with the desires of it’s users, more so than other vendors do (ie. Red Hat / Fedora). Also, on a side note, they’ve made a commitment to make one distribution that is free (as in price), so there will never be a Ubuntu Enterprise that costs $x, even if they tailor services to the enterprise.

That said, it’s still a work in progress and we’ve yet so see whether they can maintain that balance if/when Canonical’s business offerings become more of a focus of the company.

Your position certainly is valid. I kind of share your thoughts about Ubuntu, what with them progressively getting more corporate, but Mark Shuttleworth is to be commended, he has done much to advance the free software cause. Great post anyway

I run a mix of “pure” and “impure” (if that’s the right word) and the thing I like about Debian is that I feel my information and communication tools are not only safe but effectively available in perpetuity.
As a non-technical person I sometimes feel a little guilty not being able to contribute in anything but a minor way to a community who provide me with a lot.
As well it is frustrating to see the myth that Debian (Etch) is difficult to install or behind the times. It just isn’t so any more.

Debian is one of my favorite Linux distributions. Though I prefer FreeBSD, I still host my personal sites in Debian. It’s very stable, and I really mean it! The packaging system “APT” is another advantage, It’s widely available and very easy to deal with. In a futuristic perspective, there is not doubt that Debian is gonna make a huge success. It’s the base of many other “successful” distributions “For example, Knoppix and Ubuntu”.

>It’s built on KISS and its package management surpasses Debian’s by light years.

Hey, I just came from a fresh Debian install. Before, I had give a try to Arch. I can say that I liked it, but in the end I return to Debian. Arch is really KISS, but I don’t agree with you when you that pacman is better than apt…

As I said, in the end I had to return to Debian!

(example: Arch doesn’t come with a ssh server installed, which I understand. I installed it but it din’t worked; went to Arch WIKI, by the way I like it very much, and I had to “allow” in /etc/hosts.allow; Isn’t ssh far secure to have it enable by default???? :S )

I understand what you’re saying, but its nothing really that has anything with Debian specifically. I could take your article, remove all the Debian-descendant parts, switch “Debian” to any other current distro name, and it would be still valid.

All recent distros have decent package management, good community around them and nice default installation environment.

But I’m, for example, much more used to work with Gentoo, and I feel much more convenient with it. For me, everything you’ve said is still valid for Gentoo as well – I like it’s technology, system, geekness and community.

So its more of a personal preference choice than a technical or social merit.

Oliver:
Mark started the talks with Gentoo before he went to Debian. So no, as far as Mark considered – trust me, he wouldv’e succeeded with Ubuntu no matter what source he’d use for it. His success is not pure Debian-based. He’s really done more for free software cause.

A fine and well needed article. Debian and the Debian community deserves far greater compliment then critic. Yet, in the Debian spirit, I am looking forward to as many good things from Ubuntu, being also incorporated back into Debian as well.

While we can continue to think of Debian as the base or foundation of superlative total system building blocks and a base in which the whole open movement has sprung (with Slackware respected). Debian also needs an full bore, NO derivative benefit missing, end-user release of it’s very own. One where all good things come together and do this under the Debian wing. A farther progression of Etch. The future is bright.

Make a better mouse trap. Tend to the mind war. The rest will follow. It is happening now.

I agree whole-heartedly. An interesting thing happened this weekend that gave me a new perspective on Debian. Most folks consider Debian only to be compatible with older hardware, etc and until Saturday I was one of them. When faced with some new hardware I would typically reach for the newest Ubuntu, MEPIS et al, even Sidux on occasion. This weekend I took delivery on a new Sony Vaio CR-190, cutting edge stuff all around. After trying several of the above-mentioned distros (and several versions of each) with iffy results at best (video worked on one but no audio, audio on another but no wifi, etc), I took a flier and pulled Debian testing for 64 bit boxen (netinst) and installed it. At the end of the weekend, I have a very nice (and fast) 64-bit box with full video acceleration, wifi, flash, audio, etc and the reason for it was that the Ubuntus et al of the world try to uber-tweak the packages/kernels for what will work with 90% of the COTS hardware out there and are sometimes too smart for their own good. Debian on the other hand is more of a “clean slate” and while I probably could have gotten there with all of the other distros eventually, Debian got me there with less cruft left behind on the system plus as I might have alluded to earlier, this system is faster under Debian than the others. Yes I had to recompile the kernel but Debian made that easy. Yes I had to recompile the Alsa drivers but I would have had to for most of the others anyways. Yes I had to compile my wireless stuff from source but same thing; I would have had to do at least *some* of this on all of the others. The key difference here is my system is clean without too much legacy poopoo on it…

I have written up the procedures for doing all of this and will be posting it to linux-laptops.org or whatever the laptop site is…

As a staunch supporter of Debian, I have to say that I disagree with your views on Ubuntu… While Ubuntu is corporatly backed, it wouldn’t be anything without the community, and it is a vibrant community.

Fortunately for me, Debian does seperate the non-free from the free, and that level of confidence means it will remain on my system until something else as current Debian testing hits that is fully free. 🙂

[…] “Setting up a new workstation is the easiest time to choose a new GNU/Linux distribution. Having just installed Fedora 7 on my laptop so I’d have an RPM-based system available for my work, I seriously considered ending my five-year endorsement of Debian on my workstation. Perhaps I should follow the crowd and go to Ubuntu? Some other DEB-based distribution? Maybe Slackware or Gentoo to grab a bit of geek-cred? But after debating my choices for a couple of days, I decided to stick with Debian for both technical and philosophical reasons…” Read more at Off the Wall […]

Hello ….
I am ubuntu user for a while but i would like to point at two things :

1. Your writing is excellent and I fully understand your point about ubuntu. Furthermore, this article made me deeply reconsider my choice for distro and i guess i’ll be thinking about this choice over and over.

2. BUT ! Ubuntu deserves credit ! Yeah it does ! coz Im a lammer who would not use linux if the ubuntu was not there. What I mean, ubuntu has done a great job in promoting linux over Wind0ze for stupid people, such as me. (all ubuntu users – no offense pls)

You state “I’ve built up three pages of notes of exactly what I need to install, configure, and modify”. Are those notes available somewhere? Sounds like it would be a great source of information for those of us who like to learn.

My favorite thing about debian is that they have free, contrib, and non-free. I primarily use Fedora 7 (although my print/nfs server is Debian and my laptop is Ubuntu) and I’ve tried time and again to convince them to have a non-free repo and they won’t. Instead I’m left with freshrpms and livna which refuse to cooperate. Yet, they each have some packages not in the other. It’d be so much easier if there was an official Fedora non-free. I know Fedora wants to remain free, but I can’t think of anyone so committed to free as Debian (they freakin’ forked/rebranded Firefox, Thunderbird for goodness sake) and THEY have a non-free. They also even refused for a while to package certain documentation because it was “not free enough”. So how can Fedora, which doesn’t do those things, say that they can’t have a non-free section?? It boggles the mind!

This article only serves to justify my intention to move from Kubuntu 6.06 Dapper LTS to Debian Etch instead of upgrading to Edgy, Feisty, then Gutsy to get to Hardy Heron LTS next year.
I am impressed by the available documentation for Debian, and by the spirit of the community, potentially an evolutionary turning-point of some kind for the way we go about things. There has to be a better way than the corporate structure, which is essentially feudal.

When I intended to drop Novell and windows some six years ago, my main goal was to start by learning to install Linux servers. I can recall buying lots of magazines in order to make an informed choice. One of these magazines touted Debian as the hardest to learn, but also as the one that gave admins and users the most overall control. They also pointed to Debian’s stability and reliability as its most notable benefits. I chose Debian,. And I also bought some books, for I soon discovered that magazines were just a means to get started, and a source for all kind of tips, but no more than that.

I found Debian not to be that hard to learn and install. Besides, I was told not to install everything at once, but instead to make a very basic setup and then add everything on an as-needed basis.

I have installed Debian on many makes and models of PCs, and they all have worked very well.

Also, I have filled not three sheets, but a full block of personal notes. Maybe the best howtos are those written by Falko (http://www.falkotimme.com/howtos/). I wish they’d been available six years ago = )

I think the best thing one can appreciate in Debian is freedom, Once you get used to it, you never give it up.

[…] Why I’m staying with Debian « Off the Wall I’m staying with Ubuntu. It’s based on Debian and because of its community has I think a better shot than Debian alone in bringing Linux to the mainstream. (tags: open-source ubuntu linux debian) […]

Nicely put.
I’m a Debian user. I also like Mepis, except when Warren decided to use the Ubuntu repos. Now he’s switched back to Debian I’ll have another look. I tried Ubuntu, but after a while I found that as the distros went on and new ones came out I found myself being more and more locked into ubuntu debs, and being locked in reminded me of a large corp in Redmond and why I use Linux, so I came back to Debian. I’m gonna try Arch linux cos I have some special apps I need to try out that are resouce hungry and so need a lean and fast system. But mainly I’ll use Debian, and so will my wife when I can my hands on her laptop!!

I agree with your philosophical points, but they are not why I switched from Ubuntu to Debian. The three layers of “testedness” are Debian’s great feature. I had trouble with the two Ubuntu distributions I tried to use: some packages were broken (incude OpenOffice Base) and the Ubuntu team does not have much time to fix the distribution shipped out the door because they are busy knocking the next Debian unstable into shape. If you use Debian unstable, you get the same problems, but they are fixed in a week or two, not in six months.
However, Ubuntu is doing some great work bringing innovations to a mainstream distribution. I learnt the value of UUID in fstab and grub from ubuntu. And the hand holding and extremely well organised documentation of Ubuntu is marvellous. To friends and acquaintances looking to go to Linux I give an Ubuntu CD with no hesitations. It is a serious open source distribution (not as pure as Debian but better than most), it focuses on the desktop, and the community is good. Those of them looking to take the next step will probably follow me to Debian. Ubuntu is almost certainly good for Debian.

Thank you very much for this article. Years ago, when I was looking for a Linux distro to replace Windows 98 SE, a tech guy at my ISP recommended Debian because that’s what they used on their servers.

In the summer of 2006, after trying several distros for a few years, I finally found Ubuntu, followed almost immediately by Kubuntu, and I finally started using Linux full-time instead of Windows. About a month later, I discovered that I liked Mepis Linux even better than Kubuntu, and I began using Mepis full-time.

Mepis’ “point and click” ease of use had spoiled me and I was terrified at the prospect of installing and configuring Debian, but in the back of my mind, I always remembered that ISP tech guy’s recommendation from years ago, and your article encouraged me further.

So finally, several days ago, I worked up the courage to install Debian for the very first time. During the installation and configuration, I wrote My Debian Adventure, to document every step.

For the past several days, I’ve been a full-time Debian user. I can’t believe how much I’ve learned, and I’m absolutely bubblling over with happiness and enthusiasm about Debian.

Earlier this year I started dual-booting Ubuntu and Fedora 10 to work in some RPM-based practice for LPI exams. Since the first week, Fedora 10 has been collecting dust. I found I definitely prefer a Debian-based system, as I’ve always suspected anyway.

My experience with Debian distros has mainly been with Ubuntu, as well as a short stint with Xandros before I wiped that off my Eee PC. I use Ubuntu on the desktop and Ubuntu Server as well, and I’ve ALWAYS been satisfied with its stability, repositories, and package management tools. However, I think I would have no problem switching over to Debian Stable if I tried.

One thing I find particularly valuable about Ubuntu is the community of users and developers. Nearly 2 years after you made this entry, I find the Ubuntu Community to be active, dedicated, diverse and welcoming. There are exceptions to the rule, plenty of idiots in the mix–but aren’t there always? On the whole I feel the Ubuntu lot really care. They may not be the most faithful supporters of strictly free software, but they are committed to helping others. I do so myself, through bug testing and reporting, as well as providing support via the forums, mailing lists and on IRC. I’m proud to be a member of the Ubuntu community.