Is It Always Bad When Men Look at Women?

Values should be realistic.

As I blogged here, I worry that the Left is asking men to relinquish their masculinity. Perhaps this is nowhere more palpable than in the insidious equation of men’s sexuality with pornography and rape culture.

I admit that I find a beauty pageant to be derogatory toward women. I also admit that I worked in a shoe store in the 1960’s and I was certain that high heels were about to go out of style permanently. So I, too, have for decades been naïve about mainstream America’s attitudes toward men gazing at women. It still strikes me as odd every time the camera drifts toward the cheerleaders at football games. When the Donald Trump story broke, though, I remember thinking that we didn’t find out anything about him that we didn’t already know from the fact that he owned a beauty pageant. Still, the fact that there are beauty pageants and scantily-clad young women at football games shows us where mainstream America is on this issue.

I’m sure that some men who voted for Trump are out-and-out sexists, and I’m sure that some women who voted for him are victims of internalized sexism. But my guess is that the vast majority just don’t find his constant emphasis on a woman’s looks to be particularly discordant with their own view of what the world is like. More than that, I think the Right may actually have a healthier (more accepting) view of men’s sexuality than some on the Left have.

I’m not talking here about intruding on or groping women, which as I wrote here I think of as a projective identification of feelings of inadequacy. This distinction was caught in the Seinfeld episode where George got caught staring at a teenage girl’s cleavage. Jerry had only peeked at the sight, not stared. George explains that his life is empty, so he has little else. Jerry tells him to glance, not to stare. “Looking at cleavage is like looking at the sun. You don’t stare at it. It’s too risky. You get a sense of it, then you look away.” Of course men look at cleavage (women, too, says my wife), but the idea is not to make the woman feel reduced or assaulted, and not to seem creepy.

In the first season of The Sopranos, the handsome young priest tells Carmela that looking at a beautiful woman is like appreciating a sunset or any other of God’s works. He’s talking at the time about Emma Thompson, hardly a typical pornographic presence. Male humans tend to be visual in their sexual interests, not unlike female birds. Yes, I get it that this has led to a host of problems for women trying to live up to photo-shopped ideals, but the vibrancy of the pornography industry suggests that this is not about to change any time soon. Instead of looking for pro-social ways for men to gratify their visual interests, however, the Left seems to say that men should not have these interests at all. The Left seems to say that since all rape starts with sexual interest, all sexual interest must lead to rape. The Left seems to say that if a man enjoys a woman’s looks, that must be all he enjoys about her.

The Left seems to say that men should treat all young women as they treat their daughters. I’ve noticed that for many men, a mentoring relationship does lead to treating the woman like a daughter. Many men have told me that after a few weeks, when doing therapy or supervision, the woman seems like a girl to them and sexual interest stops being a factor.

Many women do not hate men for liking to look at women. These women do not feel threatened or competitive, any more than they would if men liked restaurant cooking more than their own. Although not a perfect analogy because of power differentials and the history of sexism, many men do not hate women for dreaming about what it would be like to be with a movie star or a sensitive, powerful man like Barack Obama. In This is 40, the wife played by Leslie Mann employs a hottie (Megan Fox). When another woman expresses surprise that she would let the hottie into the husband’s ambit, the wife says about her husband, "Oh, he wouldn't know what to do with that." She sees the gorgeous young woman’s proximity to her husband the way she might see an amazingly expensive car. If she knows he’s not desperate or self-destructive, she knows he’s only looking. A good friend of mine in a really good marriage told me his wife had taken a job with a stunningly good-looking doctor. I asked him if he felt threatened, and he laughed and said that their sex life had been rejuvenated by her coming home from work every day turned on.

No system of values—psychological, political, or moral—can work by ignoring reality. Human aggression and men’s visual sexual interests are often treated, especially by the Left, as dispensable inconveniences rather than as core elements of the human condition.

Let me preface this with its fine for people to privately observe others as long as they don't hurt them. The problem with this article is that it doesn't seem to have occurred to the author that being looked at by a stranger can be intrusive, and we have a culture that says men should be allowed to openly look at women. That's why this article seeks public approval for it. It's not ok to have a culture where we openly gawk at one another for sexual gratification. Period. We treat each other like humans and gratify our sexual urges in appropriate places. Not just whenever you feel like it, because you could hurt someone inadvertently.

I am a 25 years old guy. I feel sexual gratification litteraly every time a young women is somewhere where my eyes can see them. Even if for a tiny fraction of second. Even when she is only in the corner of the eye and I don't focus my eyesight on here. Same with like 80% of all young women, very few exceptions. Every time, everywhere, every woman. Like an animal that I am. No matter what clothes and which parts of the body are visible. The only excpetion maybe is when muslim stuff like niqabs or at least hijabs are worn. They effectivly prevent that, they do.
So. What is your opinion on this? I am asking.

I think this is his point. Where else other than public do we see strangers, that without our own decision, are sexually attractive to us? It sounds like you are making his point. Men can't look because someone might 'feel' offended. That is ridiculous.

There is a very big difference between casting a glance at someone and appreciate them being attractive to you, and ogle them. It is normal to look at people, notice them, to appreciate a good looking guy or a woman, or what have you. The problem arises when you ogle them like they are your personal porn magazine. I believe this is wrong and disrespectful, and personally I find the thought of it uncomfortable.

No matter how learned a man is supposed to be, if he doesn't respect women (like the author of this blog) he won't learn to. He'll find some twisted way to say his right to "masculinity" trumps my right to feeling safe AND LIKE A HUMAN. I get so tired of hearing, "Oh, it's our/their nature!" No, it isn't. Men are not socialized to have respect or control and this is where we are. This is disgusting.

I agree. Men have run with their lack of respect, one not challenged much by the culture until now, it would seem. I have received looks, comments, and outright abuse during my life. I Have stared back, mouthed off, reported abusers, and have received a lack of respect far too many times to count. The author of this piece def. wants to have his pie and eat it too. He should read Secret Survivors by E Sue Blume and then get back to us . I don't notice women behaving like this. When exactly do men start treating women like humans and not visual aids?

I'm a politically slightly-right-leaning woman (and from what I'm told, a fairly nice-looking one...eye of the beholder, I guess...). So here's my opinion:
Men look at women. My husband probably does too. And I look at men. I don't ogle them, but I certainly know a good-looking guy when I see one.
And then you know what happens? Nothing. Life moves on.

I think it's totally normal for men to look at women. But, I find it offensive when a man looks at women when he's with his wife. My husband does this and I feel insulted by his behavior. The woman usually ends up making eye contact with me, as if to ask what I'm doing with this ass. I'm asking myself the same question.

Depends on what you mean by "look at women". At the very least, how can a man even know there's a woman there he shouldn't look at without first looking?

See, this is why people complaining about this need to describe it in a little bit more detail, or it risks adding to the resentment an increasing number of people feel about "too much political correctness" run amuck. I've heard from some Trump voters that this is one thing they like about him. They wouldn't go as far as grabbing women by the p___, but his behavior and statements at least give them the feeling that he's pushing back against all the busybody church ladies talking about every little "microagression" invented by people with too much time on their hands and not enough real problems to deal with.

Is it really so partisan? I'm a left leaning woman and I understand now that men are just very visual. That has not stopped me personally from being uncomfortable if stared at, or that it hasn't negatively affected my self image or esteem growing up because it most certainly has. As I get older, I realize they really are just wired that way. That is no excuse for rape, or sexual misconduct however. More education is needed, and it just comes down to basic politeness and etiquette. Do not ogle, and try your best not to make other people uncomfortable. Bottom line, have some consideration and both sides should cut each other some slack as long as no ill will, or basic disregard for the woman's boundaries is involved.

Everyone should just stop looking at each other, then. In fact, why don't we cut all scoial contact between all human beings. I'm sure we'll all be happy, then. No opportunity for anyone to do anything to anyone. /s

Perhaps I need to clarify something. My husband doesn't just look at woman, he ogles them. They're uncomfortable and I'm uncomfortable, especially when he does it in front of me. Secondly, I'm older but I take very good care of myself. There are men that look at me, but my husband never notices. It's his loss.

Perhaps I need to clarify something. My husband doesn't just look at woman, he ogles them. They're uncomfortable and I'm uncomfortable, especially when he does it in front of me. Secondly, I'm older but I take very good care of myself. There are men that look at me, but my husband never notices. It's his loss.

OK, I believe you. But have you told him this? Have you told him you don't like it, and said so often? It's amazing how many people will complain about their spouse about something like this, and turn to an expert or forum to ask "what do I do?, but they've never confronted their spouse with it! It sometimes takes more courage to tell your spouse!

I say this because if you haven't, you can't assume he knows you don't like it. For example, my wife and I are perhaps a bit different from most people in this respect. If she spots a really attractive women, my wife will point her out to me and jokingly make a comment like. Likewise, I'll point out a handsome guy to her and joke with her, "Yeah, he's your type, isn't he?" More often than not, she's picky and will say something like, "Yeah, not bad, but he walks funny."

So, if it helps, try to lighten up about stuff like this. If you've complained to him about this and it hasn't worked, try turning the tables on him and offer a deal. You'll point out other attractive women to him if he promises to point out men you might find attractive. Maybe you'll both have fun. Or perhaps he'll suddenly realize that pointing out attractive men for you isn't fun, and he'll see why you don't like what he's doing.

I feel like this is a peculiar way to have fun. I would not be able to stand it at all. I think it's just outright horrible.

As my wife and I see it, we just accept the reality that we both can find other people attractive. It's just honest and we have nothing to hide that way. And we know others do to, even if they don't want to admit it and want to live the false fantasy that they both "have eyes only for each other". And then when one of them admits or inadvertently reveals the truth, their spouse is "shocked" and "horrified" about the fact that they are not living a fairy tale fantasy.

As I see it, you do better if you focus on your spouse's honest reality as a person and what they enjoy, rather than being ruled by your own insecurities and jealousies. It's OK to realize that your spouse is an independent person who has normal attractions, rather than "pretending" otherwise.

Still no reason to mention it aloud though. Well, whatever.
But she is "picky", you say. This somehow makes me wonder if she is really picky or just seeks out something intentionally to say she doesn't like them still. I feel like something doesn't quite fit into the puzzle because of that.

And why not? Stay deathly silent about something so obvious rather than being honest? What do you propose, being completely silent about your sexual thoughts? That's not communication at all as I see it. That's just covering up your thoughts and avoiding saying anything but fairy tales to your partner, especially if you have an open-minded partner who is not going to be upset by it. And besides, we both like looking at other people and making comments like that.

wrote:

But she is "picky", you say. This somehow makes me wonder if she is really picky or just seeks out something intentionally to say she doesn't like them still. I feel like something doesn't quite fit into the puzzle because of that.

You're making up a whole psychoanalysis based on just one example. In other cases she thinks the guy is totally hot. And why shouldn't she? She's a normal person with a strong sex drive, like myself.

I think it's fine if other people are more careful about what they tell their spouses. But in my case, if my wife told me she had eyes only for me and found no other man attractive I'd know she was just lying. LOL

Interesting that you could suspect that such honesty is actually a cover for something dark and pathological, while being dishonest with your partner about your finding someone else visually attractive is somehow more "healthy". To each his own, whatever works for your relationship.

I didn't mean to judge you, just told you how I would rather do and feel, everybody is different. I think either being honest or just simply silent is fine.
Speaking if that second topic. Yes, it's interesting. Maybe I'm just that dark myself.

This article leaves me wondering where, precisely, the author is getting his information from? I see a lot of statements here citing "The Left" but no direct sources or quotes that support statements such as "The Left seems to say that if a man enjoys a woman’s looks, that must be all he enjoys about her." Who said that and where and when? Or was that a generalisation based on a feeling? If so, the author should be clear and upfront about all statements being made without any source behind it.

Moving on from that, this sort of discussion requires a number of things to be productive: context, nuance, and a mutual respect from all parties involved. Otherwise we will end up with generalisations that do more to stir up anger/resentment/defensive attitudes rather than the sharing of information, respect, facts, and a forum for true discussion.

I consider street harassment a bad thing and would hope others do too. I think ogling (staring in a lecherous way) is a bad thing when it happens without consent.

I also think checking out a woman ISN'T inherently a bad thing. Nor do I think male sexuality is inherently a bad thing. If someone thinks a woman is attractive and takes a look to appreciate with no intent or action to be threatening (such as getting into her personal space) or harmful (such as verbal sexual comments; lecherous staring; verbal comments on her body) and then moves on with their life, there's no issue with that. Having said that, this does not in any way mean the woman who is being looked at can't find it deeply offensive or hurtful. That must be known and respected.

As the author states after having made a poor analogy, "power differentials and the history of sexism" applies to this discussion. No one should lose sight of that when talking about topics like this. It must always be in the forefront because it's always a part of why women feel scared/threatened/upset/offended/hurt/humiliated/degraded/violated when men check them out, even if the men are doing it with NO intent to harm and are just simply appreciating what's attractive to them. It's really not a lot to ask for men to keep that in mind when they're appreciating a woman they don't know. You don't know what she's suffered in her life so be mindful when you look at her to appreciate her body.

That doesn't mean don't ever look. That doesn't mean repress your sexuality. That doesn't mean women hate all men all of the time. That doesn't mean men, masculinity and male sexuality are bad. It simply means be mindful and respectful. It's the difference between being appreciated and being treated as an inhuman object. I think that's what this article is trying to get at -- that men being visually drawn to/appreciating a woman's looks isn't always a bad thing, which I agree with, I just think this article needs a lot more context (and sources for some of the statements).

There are other points that need to be included in a discussion about this too, such as women's sexuality, women who want to be looked at and dress themselves for exactly that, the nuance and context of the situation in which the looking is taking place and factors of consent. This isn't, as most things in life, a black and white issue where something is simply Bad or Good 100% of the time.

This sentence here "Human aggression and men’s visual sexual interests are often treated, especially by the Left, as dispensable inconveniences rather than as core elements of the human condition." is a bit off for me. "The Left" often treats aggression and male sexual interests as an inconvenience? Again, source?

However, even if "The Left" did view it this way 100% of the time, why is this conversation being steered away from the situation at hand (women feeling uncomfortable when men check them out) and into "core elements of the human condition" and "ignoring reality"?

Reality is the history of sexism, abuse and humiliation directed at women from men for centuries. Checking women out can be a harmful situation and a man's inclination to be visual in his sexual interest doesn't negate that.

You can't see things in isolation; its always interplay/interaction. Just think of the 'interaction game' played by both sexes - women use perfume, clothing, hairstyle, jewelry, high heels.....all to send message of 'look at me'(almost subconsciously knowing how visually oriented men are). Men may use cologne, hairstyle, clothing, jewelry (to show their wealth), workout to develop muscular bodies....to send the message of 'see how powerful and successful I am'(almost subconsciously knowing how deep in women the evolutionary desire for protection is) I know, I know, today every women doesn't need that protection; but its still there deep in the evolutionary brain.
At some point, both sexes can become aware of this ancient dance and dance consciously together..

So, if that's how it is then what's up with all those femenist girls saying they really don't need protection? I have heard of this protection'n'power stuff a lot of times and it doesn't really work out all that well in reallity. Because in the end power really garanties you nothing.

But of course! Sex is bad. Lust is a sin. Don't objectify poeple. Genders shouldn't have existed in the first place as they are manifistation of dirt and sexism. Stupid nature does everything the wrong way! (Sarcasm)
I somehow suspect some poeple might really think something very simmilar to this.

It has to stop. It is so very wrong. I don't know how we can stop this stuff from happening. What gives a man the right to notice me? If I look pretty or atttracitve. This is 2017. Clean up your act. I went on a date once with a man who said I look pretty I just had to get up and leave. What was he thinking? He even gave me flowers. No, this is not OK.My17 yeaqr old son and my 15 year old daughter are so right. When anyone speaks of sex they say that is really horrible. No.

It seems strange to me that a post generalizing political parties ideas about sex would be on psychology today. I would've thought an article on here would be more scientific. This is exactly the problem right now, lumping people together by political parties as if they all think alike. It makes me think twice about this site.

It seems strange to me that a post generalizing political parties ideas about sex would be on psychology today. I would've thought an article on here would be more scientific. This is exactly the problem right now, lumping people together by political parties as if they all think alike. It makes me think twice about this site.

This is not a section for peer-reviewed scholarly articles. This is a blog. Look up the word "blog".

Definition from internet of the meaning of blog:::::"a regularly updated website or web page, typically one run by an individual or small group, that is written in an informal or conversational style.
verb"
With that cleared up....THAT is how you respond to what I wrote? When a doctor writes an article lumping groups by political parties that is dangerous. Liberals are this, conservatives are that... THEY ARE NOT ALL OF THE SAME MIND. Get the point???? If its on this particular site it should be based on more scientific evidence than generalizations.

When a doctor writes an article lumping groups by political parties that is dangerous. Liberals are this, conservatives are that... THEY ARE NOT ALL OF THE SAME MIND. Get the point????

Yes, obviously we all get the point, including the author who never claims that all are of the same mind. The implication is that there are tendencies, and that's how I interpret his use of "left" for example. Obviously there are many associated with either party who take exception to the generalizations.

In a way, you're guilty of the same kind of generalization here by broadly brushing the article as lumping everyone in the same category without quoting specific sentences and showing your precise interpretation, or analyzing the various interpretations and contexts that people might make of a particular sentence.

wrote:

If its on this particular site it should be based on more scientific evidence than generalizations.

It does have more "scientific" articles elsehwere, but this is a blog. Or are you saying that there should be no such thing as a blog. There should be only uninformed opinion, or peer-reviewed articles with arcane statistics from carefully done studies with controls, etc. And nothing in-between? This section calls itself a blog. If you don't understand what that means, just what is it you want PT to do?

Obviously you seem to understand that the COMMENTS section here does not need to be peer-reviewed and scientifically substantiated.

Well being a single man looking for love nowadays is very difficult since most of these women are such very horrible creatures with a very bad attitude problem when you try to start a normal conversation with them, and i know friends that also had very bad experiences with these very pathetic loser women as well which is a very excellent reason why so many of us men are still single today. And at least back in the old days which most women were very normal and real ladies altogether which made love very easy to find for the men in those days with no trouble at all either. Most women today aren't ladies at all and have the worst attitude problem and no respect for many of us men as well as having very horrible manners too which tells the whole story right there unfortunately.

Well being a single man looking for love nowadays is very difficult since most of these women are such very horrible creatures with a very bad attitude problem when you try to start a normal conversation with them, and i know friends that also had very bad experiences with these very pathetic loser women as well which is a very excellent reason why so many of us men are still single today. And at least back in the old days which most women were very normal and real ladies altogether which made love very easy to find for the men in those days with no trouble at all either. Most women today aren't ladies at all and have the worst attitude problem and no respect for many of us men as well as having very horrible manners too which tells the whole story right there unfortunately.