I believe they should do their best to win with what they have. That means no waiver claims or signings. Going this route you still can still look at yourself in the mirror. It's called building from within and through prospect development. You should never try to lose. You're tossing your integrity out the door and betraying your customers.

I believe they should do their best to win with what they have. That means no waiver claims or signings. Going this route you still can still look at yourself in the mirror. It's called building from within and through prospect development. You should never try to lose. You're tossing your integrity out the door and betraying your customers.

It's a thin line. I do disagree with management telling coaches to try and lose, because I think it creates a toxic atmosphere and you basically have to get rid of all the players who were involved in it, but I do agree that Colangelo shouldn't give them anything to help them, this year. They'll lose either way.

I think to tell the coach to take a dive is to tell the fans to take their $xxx/ticket and stick it. It's unethical and it's bad business.

Colangelo has already pretty much said they won't be major players in FA. I think he's indirectly saying they're not planning on taking a step forward this season. With a 65 game schedule all it takes is one bad losing streak to hit bottom. They can have the best of both worlds. Integrity intact and high lotto pick.

Very true. Grange was advocating tanking way back in 2008-09. Instead of going on a (meaningless) 14-9 run to end the season with 33 wins with a newly acquired Shawn Marion, we should've stuck with our current roster and played it out. Those extra wins, according to Grange, was the difference between drafting DeRozan vs. Stephen Curry.

At this point, I would say both players have a lot of potential. But it'll be interesting to look back in a few years to see which player becomes the more valuable one.

I think to tell the coach to take a dive is to tell the fans to take their $xxx/ticket and stick it. It's unethical and it's bad business.

Colangelo has already pretty much said they won't be major players in FA. I think he's indirectly saying they're not planning on taking a step forward this season. With a 65 game schedule all it takes is one bad losing streak to hit bottom. They can have the best of both worlds. Integrity intact and high lotto pick.

It's not so much tanking as it is the reality of the situation. There is nothing in free agency to help this team. It has virtually no assets to trade. It has no draft pick entering the roster until the 2012 season. Even if management wanted to make this team a .500 club, I am not sure it is even possible.

As a general principle, I hate tanking. Having said that, the NBA defies the general rules. You need to acquire star talent at any cost. Any cost. If that means turning into a D-League team for 4 years, so be it. This is not MLB, the NHL or even the NFL where you can compete without a superstar, that isn't the case in the NBA. Any cost to acquire a superstar. Any cost.

I believe they should do their best to win with what they have. That means no waiver claims or signings. Going this route you still can still look at yourself in the mirror. It's called building from within and through prospect development. You should never try to lose. You're tossing your integrity out the door and betraying your customers.

I wholehearty agree with the approach.

The only thing I might do different is to bid low on amnesty players who would be good complements to the core. Either the Raptors get one or two bargain players at a huge discount or the players end up on other teams which bid a value closer to their true market value.

Question: if an amnesty player is won at 30% of the contract value by team X and team X trades the player to team Y (if it's allowed), what is the proportion of the salary team Y is respoinsible for?

Very true. Grange was advocating tanking way back in 2008-09. Instead of going on a (meaningless) 14-9 run to end the season with 33 wins with a newly acquired Shawn Marion, we should've stuck with our current roster and played it out. Those extra wins, according to Grange, was the difference between drafting DeRozan vs. Stephen Curry.

At this point, I would say both players have a lot of potential. But it'll be interesting to look back in a few years to see which player becomes the more valuable one.

Opting to not do the Marion trade would not be tanking. Tanking is intentionally losing.

Hugmenot wrote:

I wholehearty agree with the approach.

The only thing I might do different is to bid low on amnesty players who would be good complements to the core. Either the Raptors get one or two bargain players at a huge discount or the players end up on other teams which bid a value closer to their true market value.

Question: if an amnesty player is won at 30% of the contract value by team X and team X trades the player to team Y (if it's allowed), what is the proportion of the salary team Y is respoinsible for?

My problem with going there is that most guys who will get cut are old and can no longer live up to their current contract. Alternatively they're "damaged" in some way and can no longer live up to their contract. If Colangelo took a stab at Brandon Roy I can live with that. If he went after Travis Outlaw I can live with that. The conclusion I've come to is if we're talking Gilbert Arenas or Baron Davis or Lamar Odom or any of the vets in the league who could be sent packing, I have a problem. I have a problem because what are the Raptors investing in? If they go after a vet who's in his 30's right now they're leap frogging processes. It's like a runner skipping the part where he ties his shoes so that he can start running this instant. They need to stick to the plan. I think they will stick to the plan and I don't think that plan is adding vets now to sacrifice pole position in a deep 2012 draft.

I think they'll market this team with what they have and then do their honest to goodness best effort to win games.

Raptors should be able to honestly play hard and still get a high lotto pick. A top 5 pick in a strong draft is an opportunity that comes along only once a decade or so, even for a generally weak team. They appear to have that opportunity this year, as there's at least 3 guys who have solid all-star potential, as long as they declare. Grab one of those guys, and then get the best complementary pieces once our cap space starts to open up next summer.

That said, I feel bad for the season ticket holders; they're going to have to sit through a lot of really crappy ball this year.

I'm assuming they'll be fairly compensated for the 17 missed games? It could have been worse. They could have had to sit through 82 games of growing pains, which figuratively is going to feel like groin pains.

My problem with going there is that most guys who will get cut are old and can no longer live up to their current contract. Alternatively they're "damaged" in some way and can no longer live up to their contract. If Colangelo took a stab at Brandon Roy I can live with that. If he went after Travis Outlaw I can live with that. The conclusion I've come to is if we're talking Gilbert Arenas or Baron Davis or Lamar Odom or any of the vets in the league who could be sent packing, I have a problem. I have a problem because what are the Raptors investing in? If they go after a vet who's in his 30's right now they're leap frogging processes. It's like a runner skipping the part where he ties his shoes so that he can start running this instant. They need to stick to the plan. I think they will stick to the plan and I don't think that plan is adding vets now to sacrifice pole position in a deep 2012 draft.

I think we're saying the same thing but with you stating explicitely which players you believe would be good (and bad) complements to the existing core.

My percentage question is to determine what are the options if the amnesty player is found not to be a good fit.

A top 5 pick in a strong draft is an opportunity that comes along only once a decade or so, even for a generally weak team. They appear to have that opportunity this year, as there's at least 3 guys who have solid all-star potential, as long as they declare. Grab one of those guys, and then get the best complementary pieces once our cap space starts to open up next summer.

What if they don't declare or if the ping-pong balls are not kind to the Raptors and they end up with the 6th pick? Do you tank again to get a shot at a franchise player in the class of 2013?

I think we're saying the same thing but with you stating explicitely which players you believe would be good (and bad) complements to the existing core.

My percentage question is to determine what are the options if the amnesty player is found not to be a good fit.

Determining a "good fit" is not a strong suit of Colangelo's I am afraid and I dont know that Stefanski not being on the ground that long is in a good position to assist greatly. All in all my own inclination would be to just fill the remaining positions with cheap help and wait out the fallout from the frenzy and/or try and snag a draft pick for next year. Strategic tanking is what I call it

What if they don't declare or if the ping-pong balls are not kind to the Raptors and they end up with the 6th pick? Do you tank again to get a shot at a franchise player in the class of 2013?

That sounds fun...

I know there's a portion of the fan base that is "morally" opposed to do anything other than try and win as many games as possible, but that's not always the smartest thing to do. Right now, the stars seem to be aligning for the Raptors to make a big impact in the 2012 offseason. They aren't expected to compete, they have a new coach that is going to be given some leeway by the fans, it's a young team and it's a shortened season. If they don't get a top three pick, they'll still have options. They can trade up, or try and pick up a franchise player in a trade or free agent signing.

To me, the only thing worse than tanking (or not trying focusing on winning, but developing) is perennial mediocrity that has been pretty much the highlight of the Raptor franchise.

Everyone that's against the Raptors tanking are fans of other teams and just trying to mess with us!

Keep in mind:
1. the 2 teams worse than us last year just got upgraded by at least 2 young up-and-coming players (Clev: Irving/Thompson Minny: Williams/Rubio) - we won't get Jonas til next year
2. every other team that we're competing for the bottom spot got better.

Conclusion:
We are primed to tank!
Question: Do you want to live in mediocrity forever?

This year should be just focusing on developing individual skills and running sets. Think of each game as a practise session. I'll be in the seats wearing my "EVERYDAY FOR DRE!" t-shirt (Andre that is).

Think about it...
We pick up Drummond and trade two of our PF's (prob Bargs & Ed) + rid ourselves of Bayless (he's no use to us if he's not a real PG). What we try to get is someone like Gay (Mem can't afford to keep everybody) + a mid draft pick in 2012 to pick up a guy like Myck. Next years FA, we pick up a vet big to help develop the young bigs (jonas/dre) and some shooters.
[This is meant as an example]

Or we can pick up free agents like Tyson this year and stay a mediocre team forever?... cause we ain't winning anything with the big 3 in miami, big 3 in boston and big 3 coming to NY - didn't even mention Chi