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Comment by sombresang

Comment by AmosMoses

Expertise doesn't give you any +hit actually, It is actually a very strong stat for PvE DPS. Looks like a rogue offhand to me, although my main is a rogue so i would say that i suppose :P

Comment by Animora

Awesome warrior tanking weapon, not bad for a rogue but not really a true upgrade from say S3 offhand by no means, the expertise on it doesn't really help you that much since your finishing moves can't be dodged thanks to surprise attacks, and bosses can't parry from behind. I'm in no means saying it's not good for a rogue the haste is nice if you have other gear with haste on it, but it should definitely go to tanks first.

Comment by AmosMoses

I believe it's the second best PvE obtainable offhand for a rogue next to the legendarix. Haste is a strong stat for a rogue for the same reasons as a tank. Hit more often, proc more often etc... If you look at rogue combat trees and warrior prot trees we both have expertise increasing talents. Alot of the the strongest rogue items currently in game have expertise on them (belt from Vashj as an example).

From PvP, it's comparable to S3 and probably will be inferior to S4.

No need to suggest that i make myself "look like a fool" and jump down my throat. I didn't say rogue prior or anything (nore would i profane the hallowed wowhead forums with such audacity).

EDIT: Oh btw. technically when a boss parries, it resents his swing timer rather than increases his attack speed. Although the result is the same.

Comment by wrylac

Best TPS weapon in the game for Warrior Tanks. Higher TPS from a tank = Higher DPS for a raid (not just a single rogue).

Comment by Shizgara

This is more tank weap, not rogue sword, haste and expertise all that this sword have...

Comment by sevensirens

and btw... dodge/parry for bosses are ~6.5%... dont believe me? record a combatlog and use wowwebstats urselves... so expertise cap for non-humans is 103 w/o talents, humans is 83 using sword/mace w/o talents...

Comment by Photon

The reason why Warrior Tank uses fast weapon is in fact to get in as much Heroic Strike possible within the shortest time period. Since Heroic Strike has a static threat output plus a dynamic threat output from damage or crit, fast weapon are the best to maximize Heroic Strike threat. With this weapon, a Prot Warrior would be able to dump his rage faster then with any weapon (except dagger but dagger get lower damage from Devastate).

I would recommend speccing for Improved Heroic Strike to use this weapon; else you will rage starve very fast from over doing Heroic Striking. But you will defenatly maximize your threat with Improved Heroic Strike with this weapon.

Comment by Golijov

mi89325, hit does not affect dodge. Hit is more accurately called -miss, and has no effect on dodge whatsoever.

Comment by b1gbird33

warriors and rogue prob great warrior haste rating etc and will make a fast decent offhand for PvE fury dps warrior and great offhand for Rogues as well

Comment by Seraphinus

Personaly, if I ever get to Sunwell Plateau (and I won't), I'd gladly pass on this for the MT. Yes, it's a GREAT Rogue OH, but if the tank can't get aggro/dies too early, you won't be able to kill this boss faster, thus giving you a better chance to get this.Now, if the MT doesn't want this, then I'm rolling need.

Comment by malandora

This is not a better offhand than Blade of Savagery for combat sword rogues, showing an average of 6-8DPS loss. The main part of this is due to the speed of the weapon. At T6 gear levels, on a fully raid buffed rogue, each .1 weapon speed on the offhand is equivalent to about 10 raw DPS.

It is a snowball effect. According to the math, not even the 103DPS fist weapons will be as much DPS (fairly close though) as the infamy/savagery combo and will not even come close to warglaives.

If you are a rogue with blade of savagery already, give this to your tanks, it is not a DPS upgrade for you.

Comment by Stompzilla

So after reading this (as a prot warrior) I can see the rogue's side of this argument, and trust me I've read up on all your little spreadsheets that you're all using to try and claim that this is a rogue offhand and not a tanking weapon.

I can see how this improves your over all damage output and helps you regenerate your energy faster (if you're specced right). I can see it, it's right there in front of me. But the BOTTOM LINE is that there are better weapons out there for the rogue who would insist on rolling on this sword. I defy you to show me a better tanking weapon out there (especially for humans).

Again, the BOTTOM LINE is that this is, in fact, a superb weapon for a combat sword rogue, but it is a BETTER weapon for a prot warrior (especially one that suffers from TPS and damage spike issues).

Now to address some things that were said in this long, redundant thred. Whoever it was who said that rogues can use this to be parried less is a nub... And I try not to use that word as I know it deeply offends a lot of people who play WoW. A rogue should never EVER get parried unless they're fighting a boss like Prince in Karazhan or Mechano-Lord in Mechanar where your ability to get around behind the boss is severely restricted due to AOE attacks that would otherwise flatten you. So then, if we're arguing over how much rogues need expertise vs. how much a prot warrior needs it, let's seeee... Talking strictly PVE, assuming your rogue is NOT incompetent, he will be using expertise to avoid getting dodged less, yes? As far as I can see then, a prot warrior has double, maybe even triple, the use for expertise as he/she is NEVER able to get around behind the boss due to the fact that he has to hold said boss's attention. To sum up: rogues get dodged less due to expertise, prot warriors get dodged AND parried less and subsequently get damage spiked less due to expertise.

Just a note to all Raid Leaders and Guild Masters out there who disagree with me: think long and hard about how much you like the prot warrior you're planning on telling they can't roll on this sword in favor of one of your rogues, as they probably won't be in your raid/guild come the following day.

Comment by Chalcedon1

From first glance, it is very assumable that this is a combat rogue weapon. However, after careful examination, you will find out that all of it's stats translate to tanking- If you can hit faster or as fast as the rogue with righteous fury up, then it will be no problem keeping aggro. With speeds like this, people who accidentally pull aggro will not be waiting ridiculous times for you to regain your aggro.

Comment by Feeliks

Huntar wepon!!!

Seriously... when did wowhead become the thottbot comments page? This may get downranked but so should at least half of these uninformed, unhelpful comments that serve no real purpose to anyone other than thottbottian immigrants.

Comment by Neptune0100

Or it could be a weapon for both /gasp! Rogue & War can both roll on it, whoever wins gets it. If a shaman can roll on my leather $%^&, I'm sure a rogue and warrior can roll on this too.

Edit: And BTW, according to Shadowpanther.net, this is the second best off-hand wep for rogues, second only to the off-hand Warglaive.

Comment by quaker

What most people here fail to include when they make claims like this:

Edit: And BTW, according to Shadowpanther.net, this is the second best off-hand wep for rogues, second only to the off-hand Warglaive.

is that your spec and your current gear level (%crit, %hit, haste, ArPen, and AP) will have a large determinant which weapons are upgrades for you and how big of an upgrade they are. For my rogue build 19/42/0 which is a pretty standard variation of a combat sword build for PVE and my current gear level (4 pc T5 and SSC/TK epics with a couple random MH/BT drops) the blade of savagery is still an 8 dps upgrade over this sword, and the warglaive is obviously above the blade of savagery. I speak as the guild leader of a guild in BT currently, and would not want this to go to any of my rogues, including myself before the MT.

Just cause some website says it's better doesn't necessarily mean that it is. Someone earlier stated that the S3 sword is better than this for a rogue and that simply isn't true, but neither is the fact that this is the best rogue sword available other than the legendary, the Blade of Savagery is the best combat sword for people who actually have the gear to be in a raid that can obtain that blade.

Comment by Firan

Blade of Savagery is better than this weapon for dps as a combat swords rogue do to the .1 speed difference, and drops off of a much easier boss to kill (Mother Shahraz). I would gladly pass this to my tank. It does however look incredibly cool, so after the tanks all have one, I plan to loot this bad boy for strutting around Orgrimar.

Comment by Jaitai777

I am a rogue, and I would pass this to an OT or MT in a heartbeat. The expertise on top of that amount alone screams "TANK!" - I am not saying I would not use this sword, this sword has some of the highest DPS out of anything out there and would make a great Offhand to any lucky, deserving rogue out there - and im sure we would be happy to have it! But I still say tanks priority first.

Edit: for typing typing errors.

Comment by Incision

Any Rogue who can get far enough to even bother with Sunwell is probably farming Illidan, or close to it. And Warglaives are still the best weapon combo in the game, end of story. And I say you're probably farming Illidan when you start Sunwell because you're completely retarded to think you're going to get anywhere in Sunwell when you can't even finish Black Temple.

Anyway.. to all you tanks out there, eat your hearts out on this Sword. If you're lucky enough to see it, chances are you're in a raid with one of us few smart Rogues, and they will probably pass it to you no questions asked.

Comment by Neptune0100

Nevermind. I see now that it's a tanking weapon. The expertise, the one-hand wep speed, the stamina, it all makes sense.

Comment by Intruder

It's a multipurpose weapon in that there are 2 diametrically opposed roles who gain from using this:

1. Warrior Tanks as a Threat Weapon (but see below).2. Combat Sword Rogues as an Off Hand Weapon.

There are arguably better OH Swords for Rogues (Blade of Savagery, Warglaive, Gladiator OH) but nothing comparable for the Tanks in terms of a Threat-focussed weapon (Threat stats are boosted at the expense of some Defence though the increased Stamina and Expertise offset this somewhat).

How each Guild handles this information is up to them but in general a larger benefit will be gained by a Warrior Tank winning the first such drop rather than one of the Rogues.

Comment by ewormafive

Having a well geared Rogue and Prot warrior I can easily say I'd rather have this on my warrior. There's just way more haste and expertise on rogue gear than plate tanking gear. Let the haste/expertise starved prot warriors get this first.

Comment by Wrench

As much theorycrafting as you would like to do, it ultimately comes down to who needs what or who wins what. Warriors and rogues alike will want this sword. It is just a matter of time until both have it.

Comment by Phase

Not bad for a DPS warrior as an offhand. It offers the last theoretical bit of expertise rating to "cap" once we have Shard of Contempt and 2/2 Weapon Mastery. It's no Mounting Vengeance, but it's not bad. That being said, this should definitely go to tanks first.

It IS possible to get this expertise from either the Belt of One-Hundred Deaths or the Onslaught Belt (both upgrades to the Red Belt of Battle), effectively making this sword not good at all for warriors that have either of those.

Comment by Derivel

I think what we are all forgetting to mention here is how freaking badass this sword looks. I am a huge fan of ridiculously oversized one handers that strap on your back.

Debaters may carry on.

Comment by bhensley

This weapon is only now making its rounds to the guild rogues who even want to spend the bag/bank spot for it. It it hardly a DPS upgrade over Blade of Savagery / and certainly not over Warglaive of Azzinoth.

The AP / Crit on Savagery and Agility/Crit/AP on the glaive do not warrant the extra haste / expertise. Especially considering how easy haste is to come by now.

Out of the three rogues that raid with us, two of them have taken the Blade of Savagery, enchanted it with mongoose, and then stashed it away. I have not seen them use it in raid yet.

Comment by Caldonas

I believe that since no one will suffer from not taking this awesome-looking sword ASAP at the relevant gear stage, a neutral bidding system can settle the matter much much better than entire lists of arguments as to why this is the best rogue offhand or the best tank threat weapon.

Edit:

And yes, I am aware of how great a threat weapon it is for warriors, but it needs to be said that an exclusive threat weapon is still more situational than a well-rounded weapon like the Brutalizer or even a more mitigation-oriented weapon like the Unbreakable Will.

If threat is so important then how come, Blade of Savagery has absolutely no comments about how great it could be for a tank as a threat weapon?

This weapon can be an upgrade to a tank and a physical DPS class, but unless it is a significant enough upgrade that makes or breaks performance, neither should get higher priority. And it does not make or break performance for either.

Comment by Kerian

Another thing to consider in the rogue debate of this sword vs Blade of Savagery is the 10 hit that adds a lot of MAEP value to the BOS. I picked this sword up the other day (our main tank already has one, and loves it) because I am sitting hit capped with an Imp. Fairy Fire Boomkin in the raid at 316 hit rating from the rest of my gear. As such, a large chunk of the value of the BOS is lost on me and this one seemed like a good toy to play around with.Between being hit capped and now expertise capped with this sword and the shard of contempt I have noticed a significant dps increase on trash, though the verdict is still out on straight boss dps, the difference between the two swords has been all but unnoticeable. That said, I set my personal best dps on Brutallus with this sword last night and plan on sticking with it until I get my glaive, or we lose the Boomkin.I personally picked it up for a minimum dkp bid and wouldn't take it over a warrior tank who needed it, but I see no reason for it not to be considered an excellent rogue offhand. Plus it looks badass and I get tells about it all the time now, which is always fun.

Comment by Cyrada

Unbreakable will is not better, less dps, less stamina. More armor ? are you crazy , we get enough armor from the higher end peices , hopefully if your killing kalegos your around 19k unbuffed armor.. as a warrior going for this one handed sword.

Comment by Vaerondis

Is it just me or does the visual for this sword look like a copy and paste job from an Eldar from Warhammer 40k?

Comment by helmers

Haste is not a wasted stat for tanking, it's a great stat, at least for warriors. As already explained in other posts, faster attacks mean a warrior can use Heroic Strike more often in the same amount of time.

It also increases the number of swings you take at the boss, therefore the chance of him parrying your attacks. In other words it will increase your TPS but also the damage you take due to more parries.

The vast amount of stamina on this weapon hints at being used for tanking, but I am sure raiding rogues would be equally grateful.

Comment by Mirar

First priority, would go to a Tank.

But lets not forget the other side of the game. Pvp. For a rogue, expertise can help solve some warrior or opposing rogue issues.

Comment by chakki

End game SW tanks need to be expertise capped or very close, aka "parry immune"

When a boss parries their attack speed goes down, therefore tanks should get parry immune and melee can simply attack from the back, you'll get gibbed extremely fast if you have very little expertise.

Read up on the Prot warrior guide at elitist jerks for more.

Comment by Sepulture

There is quite a bit of garbage in this thread.

This weapon's expertise adds about -1.5% chance to be parried, which offsets the extra parries from the +1.5% haste.

That's not how it works. If I only have 1.5% to go to be parry capped against bosses, then the expertise offsets all parries period.

Threat weapon:1 This weapon with executioner is a warrior's threat weapon, unless you are an orc.2 The brutalizer with executioner is an orc's threat weapon.

Mitigation/survival weapon:1 This weapon is the mitigation weapon for a human if the human is tanking a boss that parry gibs and the warrior is not already expertise capped.2 The brutalizer is the mitigation weapon of choice for all other races on bosses that parry gib when the warrior is not parry capped.3 The unbreakable will is the mitigation weapon for any race if the warrior is already expertise capped (easy to do on trash, possible on bosses) OR if the boss does not parry gib - like nerfed Mother Shahraz. Yes, kiddies, not all bosses attack faster after a parry. Expertise is not always going to reduce spike damage.

Comment by nlz242

Interesting note, if you factor the haste in, this is a 109.5 DPS weapon.

Comment by Hetarow

Please note that bosses in SWP and some i believe in BT have had the haste from parrying an attack removed. that being said our mt uses this wep,so far we're 3 bosses deep in SWP learin the twins.

just a little fyi.

FueledKhadgar US

Comment by Chamual

Will this weapon be any good for tankadins come the next patch? With talents such as Hammer of the righteous & touched by the light kicking in, will this compete with the caster weapons paladins tanks normally have to steal from the mages and locks?

Comment by nERVEcenter

Bottom line between Warriors and Rogues:

The tanks always get the gear first. Otherwise, the Rogue, with the better sword, pulls aggro off a "gimped" tank (raiding is min-maxing, don't question the use of that term), and the raid wipes.

Comment by BenjenStark

Not true. The faster weapon increases the threat per second you can gain by using Heroic Strike, the rage cost is static. In other words, a faster weapon can dump rage more quickly.

Comment by DraconicVamp

So.. who, exactly, drops this? The information page is, very much, incomplete. The tanks in my guild could very much do with having one of these, each. Too much yammering on and on about stats and effectiveness Vs other things and classes.

Who? Where? (link preferable)

Heck, for that matter, is this thing even still available?

Comment by j2k339050

drops in the sunwell plateau.

kalecos around 66% drop rate.

Comment by martzianu999

but is a great weapon for fury warrios, got 2 of these on my warrior and is awesom with them

Comment by Kaetus

What makes expertise a tank stat and how would it reduce damage? It decreases the enemy's chance to parry or dodge your attacks if I'm reading it correctly...

Comment by Opticonite

Drops off first boss in Sunwell.RP tip: If you can dual wield two of these swords they look just like beautiful butterfly wings on your back.

Comment by Izaac

My weapon model of choice once the 4.3 transmog feature comes out.

Comment by xaizin

Drops off of Kalecgos from Sunwell Plateau. He drops four loot items when killed, however three of the four are bracers 100% of the time, leaving you one of what should be four chances each time he is killed.

Comment by Lunatic88

I just got this today on my Warlock for Transmog, and it is one of the few sword models displayed on the back instead of hanging by the side, which gives it a big +1 for me as a transmog piece :)

Comment by Seahnjin

Well of course one of the nicest looking swords in the game would drop on an un-soloable boss.

Comment by Neutralis

This sword is awesome. I transmogged both my one handers into this. It sheathes on your back. So when wearing them it looks like you have a pair of scissors on your back.