* Ari: This was disruptive beyond the phsyical space, as it reached the electronic part of Noisebridge. Seeing news of threats of violence is extremely disruptive.

* Ari: This was disruptive beyond the phsyical space, as it reached the electronic part of Noisebridge. Seeing news of threats of violence is extremely disruptive.

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Note added by Tony 4/24/13:

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Carlos raised the corpse of ZiP, the Noisebridge zine I started & its early demise last night at the meeting. He mentioned me working with Gavin &c back when that project was conceived (by me, with Zephyr & Miloh as early collaborators...Gavin took on the role of treasurer) & said something like "then some stuff happened & that ended." Carlos' comment made me feel that once again a distorted version of the truth has been spread throughout the insular hacking community via chatrooms & who knows what other routes that I don't have access to/choose not to participate in due to the unpleasantness of those environments. So, for the record, I'd like to state that I felt very thrown under the bus by Gavin with the ZiP project. He was probably just overcommitted, which I can understand, but his heart was clearly never in ZiP from the beginning; he was busy with Code Hero which absorbed all the attention & the money, & Gavin's one material contribution to ZiP (in chapter 2) was an article about Code Hero, how awesome it was & how great & charismatic Alex Peake is. He also made numerous subtle or not-so-subtle comparisons of me to Alex as a leader, unfavorable to me. This annoyed me, but not greatly. He also attempted to get Noisebridge sponsorship for ZiP, without asking me first, which I resented, being the editor & creator of the 'zine. When I tried to tell him I'd like to be included in communications on such subjects, he shut me out until I physically went to his house & spoke with him in person about it. He appeared to think my indignation was irrational & couldn't understand why I, creator of ZiP, would want to know about a major change to ZiP's organizational status. Even Miloh, whom I don't talk to much these days, told me verbally or in an email that he thought I had a point about Gavin's non-involvement. I don't have anything against Alex Peake, my interactions with him have been minimal, & I don't harbor a grudge against Gavin, in fact I'd pretty much forgotten the matter until it was raised at the meeting last night, but I don't think Gavin's role in ZiP should be overestimated, & I would not say he was ever fully invested in that project the way Miloh was briefly & I was for a long time. If the "word on the street" is that I caused drama which forced Gavin to retreat from the project, then I call BS on that. --+11+--

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-Reply from Gavin 4/24/13:Early on with Zip I volunteered to get involved. I helped collect some donations, installed wordpress on Miloh's server and donated $300 or so of personal funds towards printing costs. I left because in general I took a break from Noisebridge as it became a source of drama not hacking for me. This email is obviously spill over drama and it's not something I'm interested in being a part of. I haven't said anything about this for a long long time. I have never seen your name mentioned in a chat room or spoken anywhere else other than Noisebridge proper.

There are $2067.99 earmarked NoiseTor funds
Colo service has been paid through Mar 7, 2013
There are enough funds to pay for an additional 2 months of colo
This information was updated at Wed Apr 24 12:00:02 2013

Ari: It's been a rough week on -discuss. Would like to call attention to Mik being very abusive to people on the list. Has been asked to stop repeatedly. I and others are uncomfortable with him being here. Not necessarily saying he should be banned, but it would be great if he could chill out and also spend less time here.

Kevin: Can someone fill in those of us who don't read discuss?

Dan: Need to make sure there is balance. I started a rumor the Rev pulled a knife on me. Want to make sure everyone knows that was a troll. I want to apologize for that. If the Rev chills out with pissing on people's parades I'm ok with him being here. There were things behind the scenes that caused an extra-aggravated loony-tunes exchange. "obscene but not heard". I have nothing to do with the mailing list, I have nothing there.

Ari: I didn't know that was a troll, that was a serious allegation, very bothersome to read it. But I'm talking about as much about the fallout as the exchange itself. The tone was adversarial and hypercritcal. I don't want that to be the tone of the space, that some people are so combative that they need to be blocked to read the list. Whatever contributes to the atmosphere of combativeness needs to stop.

Martin: My intepretation is that Dan has been very boistrous and disruptive, yelling

Dan: it's all true

Martin: trolling, instigating people... the situation wouldn't have arisen if you hadn't made it.

Dan: I get the message. I'm sorry.

Carlos: This should be a different disucssion item. Dan, you're really disruptive. The way you introduce yourself is very contradictory. To Mik and Tony, you should take a break from the space, because you're just using the place as a cafe. Sure, you might be social hackers, but you isolate yourselves. New people come to the space or the list and find Dan, Rev Mik, Tony, which reflects the opposite of what we should be represented as.

Tony: I don't know your name, or how you're judging my projects, if you want to know what I'm working on I'd be happy to show you. I'd like to apologize for instigating these discussions on the mailing list, my motivation was that I wanted to work on my projects in the space. The altercation was preventing me from working. I hardly do anything except work on my projects. I've unsubscribed from the discuss list. I'm taking a break from NB and SF for a while in about 4 days.

Darius: As a new person, this discussion is very personal. I've had positive experiences with Dan, he gives a good welcome.

Carlos: The list should be an exchange of messages, not a chat room

Mik: I did not initate any threads. I was accused without any evidence or real testimony of comitting a violent crime, one of the worst things I could possibly do, in my belief. Apparently defending myself is wrong. In one email I was accused of many things, none of which were true, and even defending myself from two of the accusations gets me labeled as trolling the list. My behavior on the list is definitely not the lowest point its been in the last four months. What actually happened tuesday night is that I walked up to Dan and asked him a simple question: How is your being disruptive and loud being excellent to anybody in the space? What I got in return was 40 minutes of loud belligerance while Tony sat 4ft away snickering. I was supposed to back down because he was belligerant, but I don't see backing down as being excellent. Tony knew these accusations were untrue. His behavior following this supposed incident proves he knew. Supposedly with the knife-weilding maniac here, less than an hour later he was taking a nap. That tells me he knew the accusations were false. Carlos, you're here, what 2 or 6 hours a week? You don't know what I do here. I'm practically the information booth. I do dishes, I fixed the door on Turing, I'm trying to contribute to the space.

Kevin: One request and two suggests: Request: tone down personal attacks and bickering, focus on what will benefit NB and move forward. Sorry, saying bickering was a personal attack. Suggestions: Mik, when this happened with Dan and Tony, was there noone else here? What I would prefer to see happen is to address the issue in person, but what I'm hearing is you didn't have capacity. Was there noone there to support you?

Mik: I confronted Dan in person, I didn't take it to the list, nor did Dan. He heard me, but he didn't tone it down at all.

Michael: I was also there.

Kevin: Maybe I could have a conversation with you guys outside the meeting.

Ari: I am sincerely sorry to hear that that happened to you, now I better understand why you were defending yourself this way. But, you inject pompusness into otherwise civil discussion. It hurts to read. I would like you to adopt a more proactively kind approach. Sometimes don't press send.

Anonymous: I like all these guys, I thought a lot about this. I've been coming here for 3+ years. What Carlos is saying is true, you shouldn't be here all the time. And you should be kind and encouraging to other people. Thats what Noisebridge's mission is. It doesn't matter what you say, it matters what you do. If you're bringing the space down, and making people not want to come here, that is a problem we need to solve.

Martin: Dan has inhabited the back area, rearranged things, often without making it known to people what is going on. He's been here for a while and been very disruptive. Disagree with Anon about actions speaking louder than words, words have merit. You could be a productive person here but still be an asshole. But then what?

Tony: For two years, I've never slept in the space, while I was houseless. I don't like the judging how much other people use the space. Someone is going to pick up beer cans and wash dishes tonight. I'd like to ask Mik to recant calling me a liar. I appreciate Dan taking responsibility for what he said.

Mik: To clarify, what I said about stuff I'm doing around the space was in direct response to Carlos saying I'm just using the space as an internet cafe. I am collaborating with other people, and did so just today. Working on projects is what NB is about.

Michael: I've been around since 2011 but leave for months at a time. This is NB v3 for me. What Carlos is saying is valid from what I've observed, but it does come off a little heavy, because why shouldn't a component of NB be an internet cafe? Why does it have a hard time being flexible in terms of the needs of people who are contributing to it? Was glad to see the hacker-stackers when I got back. Mik & Dan weren't that disruptive.

Leif: What? Weren't they shouting at eachother?

Michael: Yeah but it was late at night and hardly anyone was here.

Ari: This was disruptive beyond the phsyical space, as it reached the electronic part of Noisebridge. Seeing news of threats of violence is extremely disruptive.

Kevin: After the PWN meetings on Mondays we try to take out the NB garbage. On April 8 there was an overflow of recycling. On April 22 there was an excess of both garbage and recycling. My question is, what can we do? There are two trash nights per week, Thursday and Monday. Did we miss a trash night? Could we produce less waste? Should we ask for more recepticles?

Mik: It is difficult to round up all the recepticles we have here. You'd be surprised how many we have. So, they don't all get emptied every time.

Nick: If the problem is with recycling overflowing, maybe we should put recycling out at times besides the designated pickup times as it will be collected by someone on Mission St quickly.

Kevin: I'm speaking specifically about the recepticles that are meant to be placed on the street; after emptying the containers around the space, the street containers are full. I'm not suggesting new small containers, we have enough of those.

mischief: during your investigating did you determine the primary sources of the garbage

Kevin: burritos etc?

mischief: did any component of the garbage stand out?

Kevin: uncompressed cardboard boxes in the recycling are one thing

Mik: a big component is food and food containers that people bring in. Johnny Radio pointed out months ago that this is not a good place for food distribution but that is still happening and a lot is thrown away.

Douglas: The market downstairs probably has a cardboard pickup we could contribute to, instead of putting cardboard in the general recycling bin.

Carlos: I like small dogs that can behave. But we have people bringing poorly-controlled large dogs lately. We should establish something to get them to control their dogs, or bring socially-adequate dogs only.

Mik: Last night we had two large dogs and a medium dog, both large dogs were on leashes, but the people with the dogs kept walking past eachother and they were snarling at eachother. I wanted to tell them this isn't a good place, but didn't.

Carlos: Maybe we should put something on the wiki or put a sign up that if your dog doesn't behave it shouldn't be here. I've seen a dog bark at a little kid here.

Ari: I think there was a meeting where people said that if a dog is being a problem it is perfectly reasonable to ask the person to leave. There might be a lack of will or knowledge that it is ok to do that.

Dan: researching protocol for service animals. One big dog that barked here is a service animal.

Mik: Which dog is a service animal?

Dan: I'm not a reliable witness, I'm just speaking generally.

Leif: It is common sense that service dog status would not magically entitle a poorly-behaved dog to be in the space.