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My response can be divided into three parts, mostly addressing her argument's lack of proportionality--what's important and what's not.

Misunderstanding our book's objectives and my research findings

Excessive reliance on the use of unadjusted correlations in the China database

Failure to note the broader implications of choosing the right dietary lifestyle

Before proceeding further, however, I would like to make a general comment about my approach in responding to Denise. I believe Denise is a very intelligent person, and I can see how she might reach the conclusions she did; this is easy to do for someone without extensive scientific research experience. Having said this, there are fundamental flaws in her reasoning, and it is these flaws that I will address in this paper. Some might wonder, "Why didn't he go through her laundry list of claims and address each one in the same order?" The answer is simple: these claims are derived from the same faulty reasoning, so it is this underlying problem that I will address. I do in fact illustrate this point by addressing one of her claims regarding wheat, and the reader can assume that one could go through a similar exercise with all her claims

Excessive reliance on the use of unadjusted correlations in the China database

Failure to note the broader implications of choosing the right dietary lifestyle

Before proceeding further, however, I would like to make a general comment about my approach in responding to Denise. I believe Denise is a very intelligent person, and I can see how she might reach the conclusions she did; this is easy to do for someone without extensive scientific research experience. Having said this, there are fundamental flaws in her reasoning, and it is these flaws that I will address in this paper. Some might wonder, "Why didn't he go through her laundry list of claims and address each one in the same order?" The answer is simple: these claims are derived from the same faulty reasoning, so it is this underlying problem that I will address. I do in fact illustrate this point by addressing one of her claims regarding wheat, and the reader can assume that one could go through a similar exercise with all her claims

this is from the McDougall thread....it looks like Dolores is being accused of being a communist(leaning in her direction) for asking questions....McDougall love it or leave it....

Heretic,I don't belive its anymore common among vegans to swat down anyone who questions than it is among any other dietary philosophies.Paleo groups are no different....its just a characteristic of people to emrbace "like think"

"I guess this sounded like you were questioning things, combined with some of your recent posts in other threads. You've seemed somewhat unconvinced that this WOE is right for you. And I suppose the fact that you're linking to Denise Mingers makes me wonder if you're leaning in her direction, but maybe I'm misreading things.

Here is an article about Taubes and how he distorted or ignored the research and misquoted scientists for his NY Times piece. It seems he received a $700,000 contract for his book, not millions, but I still believe he's made millions from book sales, as that was his first dietary book and he's had a few more since then. "

this is from the McDougall thread....it looks like Dolores is being accused of being a communist(leaning in her direction) for asking questions....McDougall love it or leave it....

Heretic,I don't belive its anymore common among vegans to swat down anyone who questions than it is among any other dietary philosophies.Paleo groups are no different....its just a characteristic of people to emrbace "like think"

"I guess this sounded like you were questioning things, combined with some of your recent posts in other threads. You've seemed somewhat unconvinced that this WOE is right for you. And I suppose the fact that you're linking to Denise Mingers makes me wonder if you're leaning in her direction, but maybe I'm misreading things.

Here is an article about Taubes and how he distorted or ignored the research and misquoted scientists for his NY Times piece. It seems he received a $700,000 contract for his book, not millions, but I still believe he's made millions from book sales, as that was his first dietary book and he's had a few more since then. "

Report This| Share this:from TC CampbellRe: Heretic,I don't belive its anymore common among vegans to swat down anyone who questions than it is among any other dietary philosophies.Paleo groups are no different....

JC, I disagre. I have yet to find a single paleo blog or a forum that would not allow comments. If you know of one, please let me know.

It has happened to me on numerous occasions but Dr W Davis is one of the worst offenders.One time my post disappeared but the other times he just refused to answer my posts while answering others posts.I quickly got the idea he does not like to be challenged.

I still don't think its a vegan thing its just that people really enjoy like-think and find challenge annoying.

Thanks for your Reply!

Report This| Share this:from TC CampbellIt has happened to me on numerous occasions but Dr W Davis is one of the worst offenders.One time my post disappeared but the other times he just refused to answer my posts while answering others posts.I quickly got the idea he does not like to be challenged.

I still don't think its a vegan thing its just that people really enjoy like-think and find challenge annoying.

I forgot that Anon was you, I thought it was some Campbell's supporter. But anyway my response still stands!

They got some volunteers posting on T.C. Campbell behalf in various forums and also on the Wiki. I remember I could not add any critical comment there, several times, not even a link to Oxford University raw data web site! One of an editor would just delete it within an hour!

I would slightly disagree, the level of control freakism seems much higher on vegan-promoting sites. On many one cannot even post. There may even be a pathological connection between an abnormal behavior or neurological disorders and some vegan diets.

Davis is surprising, since I haven't heard of many cases like that. Did he admit of deleting your post? I found that many blogs have powerful automatic spam cops. It happened to me and also to people posting on my blog. Also, neither I nor Davis have enough time to give the respondents a due consideration. Often, it takes me days to respond, sometimes I just forget. I would give Davis too a benefit of the doubt and assume it was not intentional.

Stan

Thanks for your Reply!

Report This| Share this:from TC CampbellI forgot that Anon was you, I thought it was some Campbell's supporter. But anyway my response still stands!

They got some volunteers posting on T.C. Campbell behalf in various forums and also on the Wiki. I remember I could not add any critical comment there, several times, not even a link to Oxford University raw data web site! One of an editor would just delete it within an hour!

I would slightly disagree, the level of control freakism seems much higher on vegan-promoting sites. On many one cannot even post. There may even be a pathological connection between an abnormal behavior or neurological disorders and some vegan diets.

Davis is surprising, since I haven't heard of many cases like that. Did he admit of deleting your post? I found that many blogs have powerful automatic spam cops. It happened to me and also to people posting on my blog. Also, neither I nor Davis have enough time to give the respondents a due consideration. Often, it takes me days to respond, sometimes I just forget. I would give Davis too a benefit of the doubt and assume it was not intentional.

I still hold out hope that Dr McDougall will invite you back to his forum.That would be a great debate and I would love to see how he and Dr Campbell would respond.I'm impressed with Dr McDougall largely because he seems more interested in truth than money.He could be milking his popularity for much more money.And his forum has already loosened up and is allowing more debate and questioning than ever before.He knows about this forum so he knows where to come for the invite.

Thanks for your Reply!

Report This| Share this:from TC CampbellI still hold out hope that Dr McDougall will invite you back to his forum.That would be a great debate and I would love to see how he and Dr Campbell would respond.I'm impressed with Dr McDougall largely because he seems more interested in truth than money.He could be milking his popularity for much more money.And his forum has already loosened up and is allowing more debate and questioning than ever before.He knows about this forum so he knows where to come for the invite.

I repeat. The McDougall group is NOT a debate group as this is. If you want to be shut down, try disagreeing with the low carbers on the webmd diabetes support group. One of my posts referring to plantpositive was removed. And don't dare say anything negative about low carb gurus. And I have a surprise. Some on "that other group" do read what you say on here. So say what you want. It will be read.

Speaking of always wanting to be right. In one Peanuts cartoon, Lucy is staring at the ground and saying--look at that big black queen ant. All the other aunts are running around near the queen. Charlie Brown says--that isn't a queen aunt it's a black jelly bean. And Lucy says--I wonder how a jelly bean got to be queen? My ex used to say I reminded him of Lucy. Seldom right but never in doubt.

Dolores

Thanks for your Reply!

Report This| Share this:from TC CampbellI repeat. The McDougall group is NOT a debate group as this is. If you want to be shut down, try disagreeing with the low carbers on the webmd diabetes support group. One of my posts referring to plantpositive was removed. And don't dare say anything negative about low carb gurus. And I have a surprise. Some on "that other group" do read what you say on here. So say what you want. It will be read.

Speaking of always wanting to be right. In one Peanuts cartoon, Lucy is staring at the ground and saying--look at that big black queen ant. All the other aunts are running around near the queen. Charlie Brown says--that isn't a queen aunt it's a black jelly bean. And Lucy says--I wonder how a jelly bean got to be queen? My ex used to say I reminded him of Lucy. Seldom right but never in doubt.

Re: And Lucy says--I wonder how a jelly bean got to be queen? My ex used to say I reminded him of Lucy. Seldom right but never in doubt.

The redeeming quality is your ability and willingness to talk to your "opponents", unlike your Dr.McDougall, and other diet promoters, including probably some paleo promoters. This may have something to do with the male ego-protection kicking in, which makes them defend their beliefs long past the "sell by" date. I have to clarify this: I don't think that their dietary guidelines don't work or are completely wrong, but I have to point out that some aspects of their own dietary recommendations as well as their criticisms against the omnivorious diets, can no longer be supported by the new studies, and have to be revised and updated - but they are not willing to do that! It's not about allowing debate on their forum or not, or even being open to alternative theories, it is about the "macho" guys syndrome who seem to be identifying their social status with being always "right" and even employing cops to enforce their illusion!

Best regards,Stan (Heretic)

P.S.

Like Dr. McDougall, I was also addicted to "being right", back then when I was a research associate. Got cured when I started working as engineer back in the 90-ties, and had to actually produce something that worked.

Thanks for your Reply!

Report This| Share this:from TC CampbellRe: And Lucy says--I wonder how a jelly bean got to be queen? My ex used to say I reminded him of Lucy. Seldom right but never in doubt.

The redeeming quality is your ability and willingness to talk to your "opponents", unlike your Dr.McDougall, and other diet promoters, including probably some paleo promoters. This may have something to do with the male ego-protection kicking in, which makes them defend their beliefs long past the "sell by" date. I have to clarify this: I don't think that their dietary guidelines don't work or are completely wrong, but I have to point out that some aspects of their own dietary recommendations as well as their criticisms against the omnivorious diets, can no longer be supported by the new studies, and have to be revised and updated - but they are not willing to do that! It's not about allowing debate on their forum or not, or even being open to alternative theories, it is about the "macho" guys syndrome who seem to be identifying their social status with being always "right" and even employing cops to enforce their illusion!

Best regards,Stan (Heretic)

P.S.

Like Dr. McDougall, I was also addicted to "being right", back then when I was a research associate. Got cured when I started working as engineer back in the 90-ties, and had to actually produce something that worked.

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