I remember at the time Okur walking around with the hang-dog look on his face telling us repeatedly that he wanted to stay. Some of the Euros and others place more importance on winning than money, altho his agent would have had a lot more to say about it.

As for DMC, the argument goes on and on but I firmly believe that he would be a totally different player today and the seasons leading up to today, had he been handled correctly.

I know how unpopular this opinion is on the Piston's boards but I still believe it.

But then, I am old and stubborn.

Click to expand...

I met Okur once back when they used to have more access to the players for season ticket holders. Very nice guy and kind of soft spoken.

I just don't think we had a very good chance of keeping him either way. Him and LB were not getting along and he wanted to start. Remember his mins were cut as a punishment whenever he did not do what LB wanted which was quit often.

I just don't think we had a very good chance of keeping him either way. Him and LB were not getting along and he wanted to start. Remember his mins were cut as a punishment whenever he did not do what LB wanted which was quit often.

Click to expand...

On the other hand, Memo has superb juggling and unicycle riding skills that he will carry with him forever after playing for LB.

On the other hand, Memo has superb juggling and unicycle riding skills that he will carry with him forever after playing for LB.

Click to expand...

He wanted both Okur and Darko to develop their post games before they started taking outside shots. Both would have been better players for it but it was getting to the point where Okur would get benched for taking any kind of outside shot.

It gets dicey after that, because Rasheed's contract put Joe over the soft cap that summer. This means Joe would have had to

waive Rasheed's Bird rights and the MLE in order to get far enough under the cap to sign Okur, which puts him over the cap and leaves him with a roughly $1 million Vet's minimum to spend- Rasheed wanted more than $1 million

or,

sign Rasheed Wallace to the contract he wanted which puts him over the cap and leaves him with a roughly $5 million MLE to spend- Okur also wanted more than the MLE.

It was one or the other with these guys. Both of them had offers much better than the MLE. Both players made it clear to Joe what they wanted to get paid. For us to insinuate any other option was available to Joe at that time, we'd have to be downright untruthful.

So it's Okur or Rasheed and an MLE player (this ended up being McDyess). Joe chose Rasheed, who was unarguably the bigger piece of the championship puzzle at the time. Now all Joe has left, if he keeps Rasheed, is a $5 mil MLE deal. Keep in mind though, that if he keeps Memo that $5 mil is gone.

Which brings us to Corliss. He wanted, and received, the entire MLE. Sure, we could have kept him, but that means Antonio McDyess signs with another team that summer. No McDiggity. Not for us, anyway. And no Okur either, since keeping him takes our MLE away.

So once again, to make a long story short, it was either Mehmet or Rasheed. Corliss or Antonio. We couldn't have kept either of those guys without losing somebody that was arguably better. Things really get complicated if we keep Okur. If Joe keeps him he loses Rasheed and McDyess.

Click to expand...

Thank you so much for posting this little analysis, I have had a thorn in my butt for years over the notion that we could have kept Okur and let Rasheed go. I felt Rasheed was the worlds greatest rent-a-player in 04 but Okur would be a quality center for many years. The idea that it was Rasheed plus McDyess or Corliss instead of Okur minus McDyess or Corliss makes me feel quite a bit better.

Thank you so much for posting this little analysis, I have had a thorn in my butt for years over the notion that we could have kept Okur and let Rasheed go. I felt Rasheed was the worlds greatest rent-a-player in 04 but Okur would be a quality center for many years. The idea that it was Rasheed plus McDyess or Corliss instead of Okur minus McDyess or Corliss makes me feel quite a bit better.

Click to expand...

A year later they changed the rules for 2nd round picks giving them the same Bird rights as 1st round picks. I don't think Okur would have stayed anyway.

Thank you so much for posting this little analysis, I have had a thorn in my butt for years over the notion that we could have kept Okur and let Rasheed go. I felt Rasheed was the worlds greatest rent-a-player in 04 but Okur would be a quality center for many years. The idea that it was Rasheed plus McDyess or Corliss instead of Okur minus McDyess or Corliss makes me feel quite a bit better.

Click to expand...

Do not believe everything you read. We dumped Corliss for the expiring contract of Derrick Coleman. This was a money saving cap move. We already had Corliss signed, and keeping him would not in the least prevent us from using the MLE on another player.

It is true that if we had kept Okur by using the MLE, we could not have used the MLE to sign Dyess. But think about this: At one point in the season, before we got Sheed, we went on a 13-0 winning streak, with Okur starting at center. So, you have a young, starting quality center in Okur vs. a rehabbing power forward in Dyess. I'll take Okur, thanks.

Would Okur have accepted the MLE? Not as things played out. After we got Sheed, Larry Brown quit using Okur very much. Larry Brown was returning the next season, and it did not look good as far as playing time for Okur. So of course, he left. More money. More playing time.

But lets say it was a team priority, (Dumars and Larry Brown) to keep Okur happy and with the Pistons. By lightening up the load on Sheed and Ben Wallace, time could have been kept open for Okur. We would have still made the playoffs just fine, and most likely have still won the championship. Okur, being part of a championship team, and getting playing time, might have signed for the MLE for one year knowing the Pistons could sign him for more the next year.

And we could have kept Corliss. Sure, we might have ended going up over the cap eventually if we had kept Corliss, but we would have had a very sound team in 05. Okur, Sheed, Ben rotating at center and power forward, Tay with Corliss backing him up at small forward, Rip and CB in the backcourt. (and we should have kept both Hunter and Mike James as the backup guards. People forget that Mike James had a groin injury and did not play very effectively - or for much actually- in the playoffs.)

On top of this, Corliss could continue to play some power forward as needed - and if Larry Brown had any common sense, he would have slowly introduced Darko into the mix as well for the future. There is no way at all we should have run out of defenders for Duncan in that SA series in 05.

If, if, if. There was no way to keep Okur. Had we choose Memo over Sheed we would have had Memo, Ben and Corliss upfront. Sorry I choose the Wallace X2 with Dyess, we were good enough to win it and that's all I ask of Joe, put a contender on the floor, the rest is outside of his control.

Do not believe everything you read. We dumped Corliss for the expiring contract of Derrick Coleman. This was a money saving cap move. We already had Corliss signed, and keeping him would not in the least prevent us from using the MLE on another player.

.

Click to expand...

Good catch. The second to last paragraph in my post regarding Corliss was incorrect. He had already gotten his MLE deal from Joe, with an opt out in '06 that he never used before retirement in '07.

That was a sidebar however, and it doesn't eliminate the crux of that post, which was that if Joe signed Okur he'd lose both Rasheed and McDyess.

I think it's highly unrealistic assuming Okur would have signed the MLE had LB been nicer to him. Players in the market for a secure long term contract rarely take a one year flyer and run all of the risks associated with it that could have hurt his contract negotiations the next year. Just a few of them would be

Darko comes out of his shell and starts playing well., now he's splitting backup duties with Darko.

Memo gets injured, lack of production sours team on him the following summer.

LB has a change of heart and plays Okur even less minutes during his contract year. Not impossible seeing as how he would have been playing behind two all-stars that felt they deserved plenty of minutes each night.

Either way, LB wasn't nicer to Memo. Looking at that summer's free agent signing period by itself there was no way Okur was signing an MLE deal for one year.

There were plenty of options avaliable that were not through FA. I've posted a few of them in other threads.

Click to expand...

Where? All you've stated was Chandler this that and the other. And I'm not picking on you. I'm calling out all the Joe haters to show me the alternative options, and again don't nobody show any trade scenarios that include Bosh, because HE AIN'T AVAILABLE!!!!

Where? All you've stated was Chandler this that and the other. And I'm not picking on you. I'm calling out all the Joe haters to show me the alternative options, and again don't nobody show any trade scenarios that include Bosh, because HE AIN'T AVAILABLE!!!!

It doesn't have to be an outright FA signing. People have talked at length about the trades that we could have made being able to absorb the cap space, and furthermore in the coming year when the cap shrunk.

Click to expand...

I actually posted that in a response to a post from you LOL.

There's also Milsap, Gortat, T-Mac's expiring, Odom etc. And many possible trades since teams are hurting financially right now.

There's also Milsap, Gortat, T-Mac's expiring, Odom etc. And many possible trades since teams are hurting financially right now.

Click to expand...

The trades are limited as it looks like other teams don't want Rip's contract. Pistons can't take on much more money as it looks like they are trying to move some contracts in order to be able to sign another big or hopefully two.

There's also Milsap, Gortat, T-Mac's expiring, Odom etc. And many possible trades since teams are hurting financially right now.

Click to expand...

See that's what I'm talking about, it's easy to just start randomly naming players, but tell me how those deals were suppossed to be done. Just because we say jump doesn't mean the other GM's in the league are going to say How High.

The trades are limited as it looks like other teams don't want Rip's contract. Pistons can't take on much more money as it looks like they are trying to move some contracts in order to be able to sign another big or hopefully two.

Click to expand...

These options are options before the BG/CV deals. Of course we have very little options now.

See that's what I'm talking about, it's easy to just start randomly naming players, but tell me how those deals were suppossed to be done. Just because we say jump doesn't mean the other GM's in the league are going to say How High.

Click to expand...

Seriously? How is that naming random players? Before we had Ben Gordon/CV, we had a huge amount of flexibility.

Boozer, Chandler, and possibly Amare are all player that are available.

Trevor Ariza, Odom, Milsap, and Gortat are all FA's or restricted FA's. Vince Carter and Richard Jefferson were traded for practically nothing. HOU has been known to be actively shopping T-Mac and his contract.

Are we really supposed to believe that Joe actively considered all these options and worked the trade market talking to other teams in the half a second before he signed BG/CV? Or that this was the best possible option out there considering what positions the team needs.

If Rip's contract is now untradeable that's probably something that should have been looked into before we signed another SG for major money.

Are we really supposed to believe that Joe actively considered all these options and worked the trade market talking to other teams in the half a second before he signed BG/CV? Or that this was the best possible option out there considering what positions the team needs.

Click to expand...

Do you have proof to the contrary? You haven't named one player whose contract would start at $7 million better than CV. And you haven't indicated one combo guard available as a FA better than Gordon.

If Rip's contract is now untradeable that's probably something that should have been looked into before we signed another SG for major money.

Click to expand...

Who said his contract was untradeable? Fans who don't know how the CBA works? Radio talk show and ESPN hosts who email Larry Coon asking how the CBA works? Gimme a break.

If Rip's contract is hard to move now it's because people like me, were telling people like you last year that Rip was overrated and should have been traded. If he's hard to trade now, it's because Joe paid a guy who *cough* some people *cough* thought was our best player.

But in an offseason when David Lee can't get a contract offer, and Vince Carter is traded for next to nothing, AI can't get a multi-year deal, and T-Mac is sitting on the sidelines, who the heck is going to give anything tangible up for Rip? Nobody who isn't insane.

Joe will have to wait for the right offer at the right time. And fans will have to suck it up and wait too. It takes two parties to trade.

Seriously? How is that naming random players? Before we had Ben Gordon/CV, we had a huge amount of flexibility.

Boozer, Chandler, and possibly Amare are all player that are available.

Trevor Ariza, Odom, Milsap, and Gortat are all FA's or restricted FA's. Vince Carter and Richard Jefferson were traded for practically nothing. HOU has been known to be actively shopping T-Mac and his contract.

Are we really supposed to believe that Joe actively considered all these options and worked the trade market talking to other teams in the half a second before he signed BG/CV? Or that this was the best possible option out there considering what positions the team needs.

If Rip's contract is now untradeable that's probably something that should have been looked into before we signed another SG for major money.

Click to expand...

As it turns out there was no way Utah was going to let Milsap walk - unless Dumars was willing to pay a ridicules contract.

You would rather have Odom over CV?

I agree that Gordan is debatable. You either like the guy and think it was a good move or you don't. But locking up an up and coming 24yr old who can be a superstar someday for a little over 6mil/yr seems like a no brainer to me.

Trying to predict what Joe will do next will have you talking to rocks... however the recent trend appears that he's building for the next window (post Orlando, Boston, Cleveland)... Cleveland is making a run as a long term player by having these large expirings for leverage (and new investors).

Things could change with the right big man acquisition. What bothers me about the current roster is the lack of high energy defenders across the board... We could seriously be a bottom five defensive team.... I'm not sure that the next Center fixes this... Who's gonna be our Big Ben?... who's gonna facilitate these scorers?

And your point? Utah is actively looking to trade Boozer, NOH is a financial mess, and up until a few days ago Amare was hinting at how he possibly wanted out of PHX. Hence the whole look at how many trades we can make and they don't have to be of equal value/we can absorb the money spiel people were talking about (IIRC you mentioned it as well) when presented with the mediocre FA list of 09.

Not one of them would have come to Detroit without being massively overpaid. Not one of them is worth it.

Click to expand...

As opposed to Ben Gordon and CV? The highest offer Lamar Odom is getting is 3 years/8 mil a season from the Lakers. That's it. Odom at 9 mil is worth much more to me than CV at 5/35.

And they have big time salaries. And they are world class chokers. Joe is not building a team for one more season of standing still.

Click to expand...

They are still other options that we had.

Please.

Click to expand...

Please we don't want T-Mac's contract? Please they are not trading it? You'll have to be more specific.

Do you have proof to the contrary? You haven't named one player whose contract would start at $7 million better than CV. And you haven't indicated one combo guard available as a FA better than Gordon.

Click to expand...

Of course b/c we needed a combo guard. Gordon does not fill a hole unless we are trading Rip. We didn't need to actively look for a guard. I'd rather pay 2 mil extra for a better player than CV. My argument is there were other (better) things to spend our money on. not look at this mediocre player we got at such a great price!

Who said his contract was untradeable? Fans who don't know how the CBA works? Radio talk show and ESPN hosts who email Larry Coon asking how the CBA works? Gimme a break.

Click to expand...

I'm going by what people on this forum are saying about Rip's contract, hence the if, not MY opinion of Rip's contract. All i'm doing is pointing out that Joe went out and signed a guard for starting salary money and we now have 2 starting SG's when people say how can you question this signing.

If Rip's contract is hard to move now it's because people like me, were telling people like you last year that Rip was overrated and should have been traded. If he's hard to trade now, it's because Joe paid a guy who *cough* some people *cough* thought was our best player.

Click to expand...

I don't think he's overrated. According to most people AI was a better player than Rip and going to lead us to the era of players that play hard, leave it all out there, bla bla. YVMV.

But in an offseason when David Lee can't get a contract offer, and Vince Carter is traded for next to nothing, AI can't get a multi-year deal, and T-Mac is sitting on the sidelines, who the heck is going to give anything tangible up for Rip? Nobody who isn't insane.

Joe will have to wait for the right offer at the right time. And fans will have to suck it up and wait too. It takes two parties to trade.

Click to expand...

Ok.

All this discussion is in response to all the posters saying we have to trade Rip now that we have BG or that this 3 guard thing can't work and then prasing Joe for signing a guard in the first place. KGREG asked me what i thought Joe could have done differently and to name possibilities outside of who we signed. That's what i'm doing.

Trying to predict what Joe will do next will have you talking to rocks... however the recent trend appears that he's building for the next window (post Orlando, Boston, Cleveland)... Cleveland is making a run as a long term player by having these large expirings for leverage (and new investors).

Things could change with the right big man acquisition. What bothers me about the current roster is the lack of high energy defenders across the board... We could seriously be a bottom five defensive team.... I'm not sure that the next Center fixes this... Who's gonna be our Big Ben?... who's gonna facilitate these scorers?