BJJ's almost complete focus is on establishing ground control/superiortiy.

In Judo you have the opportunity to win on the ground; but in the stand-up position you are attempting and risk sacrificing ground position to finish the fight early from a throw. This leads to the following situations.

1. Turtle posiition becomes more frequent; as people attempt low throws or escape from throws their back will be exposed and thus drlling in judo ground work often reflects turtle position.

2. Guard passing is important against sacrifice techniques such as tomoe-nage, sumi-gaeshi etc. The dillema you have with this is that people who attempt these techniques normally like ground fighting therefore you may not always see someone attempt guard passing unless they are confident of their ground skills (better strategy may be to stand-up and trade throws).

As a general rule; judo ground fighting is not as widely developed as BJJ but may have something to offer from specific positions e.g. It is difficult to submit judo guys from turtle also they have good armbars and different angles of atack to bjj's from turtle.

"However, in Judo rolling over on your belly counts as an 'escape' from a pin, so that's how many of them do it. This is not a productive habit in BJJ, MMA or 'self defence'."

For self defense I disagree, having the option to get out of a pin is better than being totally imobile and helpless. Plus I have seen a few escapes that involve turning onto your front to get out of a pin in BJJ for example this from Saulo Ribeiro: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EIXVvpBUMR0

There is the issue in Judo of people flattening out on their fronts to avoid the pin in the first place, or after escaping, which I agree is a bit negative. No sport is perfect though, they all have strengths and weeknesses.

I had very little respect for Judoka until I watched a Judo black belt wearing a white belt ( WHY IS THIS ALLOWED? ) tap out the entire BJJ class over a few weeks, all colour belts inc myself and the BB coach ( multiple champion )
Judo is HIGHLY UNDERESTIMATED!. The Judo guy was average build, and had ZERO ego very refreshing as I have met BJJ BB's who walk round with a God like status and pack of mcains oven chips on there shoulder lol

For self defense I disagree, having the option to get out of a pin is better than being totally imobile and helpless.

Rolling onto your belly on the bottom of mount or side control puts you in a worse position for everything except Judo. You're not 'out', you're still underneath him, just without your shoulders on the floor. Turtling up properly i.e. on all fours, is different and a valid escape in non-Judo circumstances.

Not the same, Saulo blocks out the back mount and then re-guards, he doesn't just roll onto his belly and grab his collar.

Originally Posted by TatooineFarmBoy

There is the issue in Judo of people flattening out on their fronts to avoid the pin in the first place, or after escaping, which I agree is a bit negative. No sport is perfect though, they all have strengths and weeknesses.

Agreed, the throws of the average BJJ player are in a worse state than the groundwork of the average Judoka. Just pointing out the difference between a lot of Judo groundwork and BJJ as per the OP.

"Not the same, Saulo blocks out the back mount and then re-guards, he doesn't just roll onto his belly and grab his collar."

Well obviously what you do having escaped the pin depends on the rules you are competing under. Fundamentally though being able to break a pin by whatever means has got to be a useful skill, it can only give you more options.

I honestly cant think of a pin escape that "forces" you to flatten out. Wether to turtle or flatten is a decision you make after breaking the pin I reckon.

One other thing I would say about pins in a self defense scenario is that there are other things than submissions you can be vulnerable to, such as eye gouges (try that from a scarf hold for example). Being flat on your stomach is certainly not a good position in self defense, but still it is not the absolute worste position either.

"Not the same, Saulo blocks out the back mount and then re-guards, he doesn't just roll onto his belly and grab his collar."

Well obviously what you do having escaped the pin depends on the rules you are competing under. Fundamentally though being able to break a pin by whatever means has got to be a useful skill, it can only give you more options.

the option of being choked the fuck out in bjj. remember in judo you can't apply pressure to the face to open up the neck. in bjj.....

man, when you're the nail, hang in there....until the day you become the hammer