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Or do you not know that wrongdoers will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: Neither the sexually immoral nor idolaters nor adulterers nor men who have sex with men[a] 10 nor thieves nor the greedy nor drunkards nor slanderers nor swindlers will inherit the kingdom of God. 11 And that is what some of you were. But you were washed, you were sanctified, you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and by the Spirit of our God.

Sexual Immorality

12 “I have the right to do anything,” you say—but not everything is beneficial. “I have the right to do anything”—but I will not be mastered by anything. 13 You say, “Food for the stomach and the stomach for food, and God will destroy them both.” The body, however, is not meant for sexual immorality but for the Lord, and the Lord for the body. 14 By his power God raised the Lord from the dead, and he will raise us also. 15 Do you not know that your bodies are members of Christ himself? Shall I then take the members of Christ and unite them with a prostitute? Never! 16 Do you not know that he who unites himself with a prostitute is one with her in body? For it is said, “The two will become one flesh.”[b] 17 But whoever is united with the Lord is one with him in spirit.[c]

18 Flee from sexual immorality. All other sins a person commits are outside the body, but whoever sins sexually, sins against their own body. 19 Do you not know that your bodies are temples of the Holy Spirit, who is in you, whom you have received from God? You are not your own; 20 you were bought at a price. Therefore honor God with your bodies.

If the forgiveness of sins by John’s baptism was full and without any limitation would there be a need for another baptism afterwards? If baptism is something that cleanses from sin or makes atonement for sin then there would be no need for any further baptisms but we see that that is not the case. The disciple of John needed to be baptized again. This shows the repentance associated with his baptism did not give those baptized by him eternal life or justification as it did to those who believed in Jesus and were baptized.

“If baptism is something that cleanses from sin or makes atonement for sin then there would be no need for any further baptisms but we see that that is not the case. The disciple of John needed to be baptized again.”

john did an external ritual of cleaning to represent the clean state of mind. the good thing for john is that the external ritual will give the feeling of clean mind, but in jesus’ case, you only have a crucified bloody idol. when you sin, don’t you wash yourself in jesus’ blood again and again? isn’t that what christians have been doing ? don’t you imagine a crucified idol to connect with your god? you still as a christian need to be reminded of it WHEN you do sin. john was not depending ONLY on EXTERNAL ritual, the man clearly believed that with repentance comes GOOD DEEDS. this is clear in your bible.
baptism would only work if repentance accompanied with good deeds.

can i ask a german pagan like you how one becomes worshiper of abraham if one performs the act of sacrificing an animal in remembrance of abrahams willingness to give up anything for God anytime and place?

can i ask you how you are not an idolater for smothering 1 person 2 natures as he is leaving the empty tomb?

Acts 19 v 3 And he said unto them, Unto what then were ye baptized? And they said, Unto John’s baptism. 4Then said Paul, John verily baptized with the baptism of repentance, saying unto the people, that they should believe on him which should come after him, that is, on Christ Jesus. 5When they heard this, they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus. 6And when Paul had laid his hands upon them, the Holy Ghost came on them; and they spake with tongues, and prophesied.

Progressive revelation. All faith and repentance in the OT and John the Baptizer یحیی Yahya – before Christ and before the cross – all of it looks forward to the Messiah and His “once for all sacrifice for sins”. John the Baptizer himself said about Jesus – “behold the lamb of God who takes away the sin of the world”. (John 1:29)

Same for Genesis 22 – the sacrifice of the ram in the place of the human (Abraham’s unique beloved son) points to the Messiah and His sacrificial atonement at the cross.

Even the Qur’an hints at the truth of substitutionary ransom atonement – Surah 37:107 – “We have ransomed him with a mighty sacrifice”.

وَفَدَيْنَاهُ بِذِبْحٍ عَظِيمٍ – 37:107

The root of that word for “ransom” in Arabic, is the same root word for ransom when Mark 10:45/Matthew 20:28 is translated into Arabic or Farsi – فدیه و فدا

“The Son of man came not to be served, but to serve, and to give His life a ransom for many” Mark 10:45
The Qur’an, by affirming the historical narrative of Genesis 22, preserves the truth of substitutionary ransom sacrifice in Surah 37:107.

Then why the need for your progressive revelation as Islam is 3rd and last?

and why the need for the progression within Islam itself – the change from Meccan Surah’s to Medina Surahs to then Caliphate / Dhimmi principles and later 4 schools of Sunni Fiq, Shiite vs. Sunni wars, and Dar Al Islam vs. Dar Al Harb – all of that is progressive revelation and interpretation also.

We have been through this before , Ken. No idea why you keep repeating this nonsense!
Allah saved Abraham’s son as reward for Abraham ,and to fulfill that vision.
It has nothing to do with your pagan concept of forgiveness !

but why the need for a substitute sacrifice ذبح and ransom فدا ، فدیه ? Allah could have stopped him from killing his son without a substitute? Truth bears repeating and you guys have never answered or refuted this; since also the Qur’an skips over all the subsequent prophesy and theology based on this in Genesis 22 – Leviticus chapters 1-7, 16-17; Isaiah 53; the whole NT, Mark 10:45, etc.

Allah (sw)replaced that son by a ram to fufill that vision and to become a sunnah( path) for us to do after our father. It’s jus a test and a reward, but behind that test great fruits. Read surah Hajj:37 .
It has nothing to do with your pagan concept at all.

In fact, that very story is something desryes your religion as whlole for how can God saved that son with a ram? You know that sins cannot be washed except with Jesus’ blood unless you think that Jesus was the sheep!

why is the Eid Al Adha عید الاضحی or عید قربان Eid e Qorban “a path for you do after your father” ?

Why did Allah substitute a ram in the place of the human?

How is that a reward?

The Messiah was the fulfillment of all the prophesies about a perfect atonement –
Daniel 9:24-27 – to make atonement, to forgive iniquity, to finish transgression . . .Messiah will be cut off (see also Isaiah 53:8 – He was cut off from the land of the living = killed.

Yahya یحیی (John the Baptizer) the prophet said, “Behold, the lamb of God who takes away the sin of the World.” John 1:29

It’s a pagan concept. You use the OT backward while jews, muslims, atheists, and even honset christinas know the text itself doesn’t teach that pagan concept. Isaiah 1:18-19 should be enough for you if you’re a truthful man.

They could get sheep or rams or cows for meat anytime; which they did anyway. Your explanation does not explain the reasons for the substitutionary replacement and calling it a ransom فدا ، فدیه and does not explain calling it a slaughter/ sacrifice ذبح

Butcher shops for meat are not “sacrificial” or worship related in nature, as the tabernacle/temple sacrifices were in the OT.

Why the need for replacement?”
Althogh I have answered you many times, I’m gonna repeat it for you. This is called a reward ! A reward for them and to become a sunnah after our father since all the story was NOT about the human beings who cannot be saved unless god comes to be a lamb for us. Rather it’s a bout a test for Abraham and his son. Got it?

You are the one who has to answer! Why did Allas( sw) replace Issac who deserve the Hell fire with a ram to be saved. Was a ram enough according to christanity ? Any answer?

The ram is an innocent, sinless victim, which is the theology of Exodus 12 (Passover lambs); Leviticus 1-7; 16-17 – “spotless”, “without blemish”, – the innocent animals take the place of the sinful humans and the animal sacrifices in the OT in Exodus 12; Lev. 1-7; 16-17-
they point to the coming Messiah – Isaiah 53; Daniel 9:24-27.

the whole Bible teaches this progressively from Genesis to Revelation; which the NT teaches also:

“18 knowing that you were not redeemed with perishable things like silver or gold from your futile way of life inherited from your forefathers, 19 but with precious blood, as of a lamb unblemished and spotless, the blood of Christ.” 1 Peter 1:18-19

“he innocent animals take the place of the sinful humans and the animal sacrifices”
Wow!
So we can be saved by sacrificing “innocent” animals?
Why did your god (empty) himself to be a lamb for the sinners then?
Did he forget that sacrificing “innocent” animals is enough?

I’m just asking! Why is that so problematic for you?
Here’s the question again, Ken
Can we be saved by sacrificing “innocent” animals?
Why did your god (empty) himself to be a lamb for the sinners then?
Did he forget that sacrificing “innocent” animals is enough?

*I know your theology already which is based on nonsense interpretations and contradictory books .
Muslims, Jews, atheists, and even some christians relize this fact whether you like it or not.

ken, why did yhwh invent a complex system only to have it UNDONE and replaced by BEATING up and nailing a human to the cross? did yhwh lose trust in his complex system?
when isaiah says yhwh got “sick and tired” of offerings, christians are quick to point out that yhwh wants ANIMAL killings with good intentions.

so yhwh only has a problem with intent and NOT THE ANIMAL SLICING.

so if a jew feels GUILT , pain and sorrow after SEEING the LIFE of innocent ANIMAL go away

and SEES the suffering of an ANIMAL which carries the jews sin into the wilderness

then chances are the jew would probably not sin

i quote :

If G-d doesn’t need anything then why are there sacrifices at all? The answer is that MANKIND needs sacrifices to understand the value of life. By giving something of value and realizing that it could easily have been our life that was forfeit instead of the sacrifice. Via kosher sacrifice we experience the emotional response that mortal life is fleeting and can be gone in an instance. We may only sacrifice things we OWN — thus giving up something of value for the betterment of our spiritual selves.
The value in sacrifice is in giving of ourselves (the best of our selves, read Genesis 4:7) and the understanding that we owe everything, including our very lives, to Him.

This is why we sacrifice to G-d. Man is the one who NEEDS, not G-d. If the value in sacrifice is in the experience of giving of OURSELVES how does a god sacrificing himself for some nebulous reason make sense?

…

The person bringing the sacrifice had to place his hand upon the animal and watch it being killed. He had to feel the life leaving the animal and realize that life is fleeting. It can be gone in a second. We must be grateful to G-d for our lives and for every precious second we are on this earth.

end quote

ken, should jimmy swaggart go back to KILLING animals?

doesn’t it have GREATER effect than the killing of “man-god” who died for a short time and then came back to life?
even mary m was “filled with joy”

yhwh trusts in his sacrifices ken, you don’t seem to TRUST in what yhwh TRUSTS in .

The Jewish Scriptures show the Messiah to come would be the one who would be the final sacrifice, the atonement for sin, the “finishing” of iniquity – Daniel 7:24-27; Isaiah 52:13-15 & Isaiah 53:1-12 and the NT confirms this – Mark 10:45; John 1:29; I Peter 1:18-19; Revelation chapter 5. people from every nation, tribe, people group, and language have been purchased ( redeemed, ransomed, فدا، فدیه ) by the blood of the lamb – the Messiah (Rev. 5:5-5 – the one from the tribe of Judah, root of David, Jesus Himself, the eternal Word and eternal Son). Rev. 5:9

“The root of that word for “ransom” in Arabic, is the same root word for ransom when Mark 10:45/Matthew 20:28 is translated into Arabic or Farsi – فدیه و فدا”

i don’t get a pagan like you.

ken, what does the word “release ” mean and according to the Quranic version why was the son “released” ?

1. because of ABRAHAMS and his sons willingness/deeds / trust

2. because God can only release through BLOOD of animal

“ransom”/fidya in quran is also for charity and fasting. EACH = GOOD DEEDS. SO now tell me,
what in the story of abraham is the RELEASE connected with? your pagan beliefs or will you let the quran speak?

i don’t get a pagan like you.
Qur’an calls me one of the “people of the book” and one of the “people of the gospel”, and you are suppossed to use good and beautiful arguments ( احسن ) -Surah 29:46 in your Da’wa.

And your “details” are laughable rants by an ignorant missionary, nothing more. Your tactic is too make your own asinine commentary and then just repeat it ad naseum. I and others have refuted you on this matter and others many times. You’ve been embarrassed on the matter of atonement, angels having sex with humans, the Jewish law lasting forever as per Ezekiel, etc. Usually you just run away and then reappear somewhere else and repeat the same weak arguments. The lying spirit has failed you.

“Thou hast already fulfilled the vision!” – thus indeed do We reward those who do right.”

what was the reward ken?

how come in both the biblical and quranic account emphasis is put on the relationship between abraham and his son and no emphasis on the sacrificed item?

why is the sacrificed animal seen as something which symbolizes abrahams willingness and his sons willingness and nothing to do with reluctant pagan man-god who begged his daddy “please remove the cup…my soul is deeply troubled….”

why are you wrecking the relationship of abraham with his son by shoving irrelevant pagan man-god in between them?

abraham probably used to eat a lot of meat and i am sure “innocent” did not cross his mind while he was eating.

i am sure even jesus used to consume meat .

i am sure even when you much on piglet, you do not think “hey, that was an INNOCENT pig i just digested”

you said:
but why the need for a substitute sacrifice ذبح and ransom فدا ، فدیه ? Allah could have stopped him from killing his son without a substitute?

::::::

Abraham is WILLING to give up his son as burnt offering because his son was sinless, right?

Abraham’s son must have been pure and sinless, otherwise why would genesis even say he was GOING to kill his human son? This indicates original sin is a lie because an innocent human son was going to be burnt

No born in sin nature for Abraham’s kid

Now if there was no WILLINGLNESS TO BURN the animal, how would it symbolise that Abraham is willingly to give up his life when god wants him too?

Abraham did not become reluctant like jesus and was ready to WILLINGLY KILL his son.

think if Abraham started to beg god to remove the cup and save his son, the animal would have become a blemished sacrifice .

The story has relationship between 3 . it involves willing to listen and trust. And willing to do the job via human effort.

do not rape the text by fitting jesoz into it.

if you really like to rape the text then say that yhwh really preferred the blood and flesh of Abraham’s kid because it was free of fault.

Can you tell me if your god is symbolic for innocent son of Abraham or the ANIMAL burnt ? Note olah offering is USELESS if Abraham did not BURNT it, he would have done half the job by cutting it.

Since abraham used to KILL Animals and eat them , do you think that your god should have provided flower instead ?

Since humans stopped eating humans long time ago, do you you believe we are all doing substitutionary ritual when we eat beef and chicken burger ?

The great ransom for Abraham is that, Muslims mentions and pray(not intercession) to him and his family everyday in our prayers. We do the exact same sacrifice he did every year by performing Hajj and perfome his(Abraham’s) rituals and his family. We throw stones to symbolise when Haggar threw stones to satan when he was tempting her with water. She refused the temptations of satan and prayed and waited for God to bring her water called zamzam from the where the feet of the baby Ishmael was in the desert.

We sacrifice a lot of animals just like like how Abraham did and distribute the meat to poor and to our Christian friends to eat. I normally invited my Christian friends to enjoy the delicious meat from my childhood till today and so are most Muslims. All because of Abraham’s obedience to God. It is a mighty sacrifice.

I mean pray for Abraham not pray to Abraham.
In few weeks time, Muslims all over the world will perform the mighty sacrifice of more animals to remember and pray for Prophet Abraham and his family. We will perform all the rituals he and his family did at his time and it will continue till the end times. Abraham prayed for that and we Muslims are remembering him with mighty sacrifice of Hajj and eid ul Adha.

Do you pray for Abraham and his family daily? Muslims do that.
Do you sacrifice ram annually like how Abraham did? Muslims do that.
Do you perform the rituals of Abraham obedience to God? Muslims do that.

That is the ransom of mighty sacrifice to Abraham and his family.

Abraham prayed to God for future generation to see his obedience to God and Allah granted his prayers with mighty sacrifice that Muslims and those who submits to his God did and are still doing till the end times. Is it not amazing?

No one can sacrifice like Abraham. God hasn’t told anyone else to sacrifice their son. Muslims are not copying him. If they honour kill their children maybe they think they are copying him perhaps? Honour killing will get a leg up with your interpretation of what Abraham did.

May be Christians are not commanded. But Muslims are commanded to pray and remember Abraham and his family because of his obedience to God. We are commanded to perform Hajj and perform the rituals of Abraham’s and his family obedience to God including sacrificing a ram that he did.

and what were the jews doing before muhammad was born? did they not sacrifice animals to remember the act of abraham?

btw paul lied to you when he said “abraham was justified by faith”

the reason he lied to you was because in the torah, the hebrew word for “righteousness”
is connected with deeds/acts/works

quote :

Tzedek – justice; the practice of making sure our fellow human beings receive and get to keep what is rightfully theirs according to the laws of God
Tzadakah – justice-love or benevolence as a duty
Tzadik – 1). one who does tzedek and tzedakah; one who is law-abiding; 2). one who is on the right side of the law in a court case; 3). one who is correct or right in a particular circumstance
Mishpat – from the word shofet (a judge); the law handed down by a court and accepted by the litigants or by an entire society. It can be a man-made law or a divine law.

The word tzedakah never ever means innocent or pure or holy or clean or vindicated or justified.
Kadosh means holy.
Tahor means pure.
Naki means clean.
Lehatzdik means to vindicate or to justify (it has the same root as the word tzedek).
Mutzdak means vindicated or justified (same root as the word tzedek).

Tzedakah is the PERFORMANCE of BENEVOLENCE AS A DUTY. It never ever has the connotation of innocence/clean/pure/holy. Look at these verses and tell me if you think it makes sense that God is telling us to DO INNOCENCE, to DO PURITY, to DO HOLINESS. God is telling us to DO JUSTICE and JUSTICE-LOVE.

can you tell me why paul of saurus RAPED the definition in the torah? why he LIED about abraham? why he LIED on his beloved torah? why ? why ? why?

why

here are some more quotes:

A person is born into this world INNOCENT and PURE FROM SIN – but not a TZADIK. A tzadik is someone who ACTS according to God’s LAWS – he/she lives a life of TZEDEK (justice – the state of being law abiding) and DOING TZEDAKAH (justice-love) to his fellow humans. A rasha (a wicked person) is someone who does not live according to God’s Laws, he does not fulfill his duties of tzedakah (justice-love) to his fellow humans.
So Adam and Eve came into the world innocent and pure from all sin, but they were not yet tzaddikim until God taught them His laws. Once they were aware of God’s laws, they could then choose whether to DO His laws or whether to NOT DO them. When they chose to do God’s laws they were tzadikim. But they were not created tzadikim.

Paul of Tarsus and the rest of the NT teach that according to God (and the Tanakh) a tzadik is ONLY someone who believes in the “Final Eternal Yom Kippur Sacrifice (Jesus)”. And Paul of Tarsus attempts to bring proof of this from Tanakh. His “proof” is one of the most ignorant “Torah lessons” I have ever seen. He takes the word tzedakah (in the verse about Abraham) which means an act of justice-love and teaches that it instead means innocent – that “believing” is an act of tzedakah which makes the person innocent. TZEDAKAH NEVER MEANS “INNOCENT OF SIN” IN ALL OF TANAKH. Paul of Tarsus told one of the biggest whoppers in human history.

(I need to clarify something so that I do not leave anything out. I wrote that the primary meaning of tzadik in Tanakh is a person who does tzedakah and tzedek. When the word tzadik appears in Tanakh it has this meaning the overwhelming majority of times. There are a handful of times in Tanakh that the word tzadik does not have this meaning, but rather means someone who is on the right side of the law in a court case, just as the word rasha (wicked) is sometimes used in Tanakh to mean one who is on the wrong side of the law in a court case, e.g. “and they (the judges) vindicate the tzadik and find the rasha guilty” (Deut. 25:1). This verse is speaking about people who take their grievance to court.

However, the word tzedakah only means justice or justice-love in every instance in Tanakh. It never means innocence, nor vindication, nor justification, nor “being right with G-d” as Paul of Tarsus and the NT teach us. This one NT teaching has pulled the wool over the eyes of people who don’t know Hebrew and has also killed the heart of the Torah, namely Hashem’s love of true righteousness which is the DOING OF TZEDAKAH.)

your god got kind of obsessed with killing of innocent children, so he gave birth to jesus in trinity, sent him and had him roasted by pagan sacrificers. your god seems to have wasted thousands and thousands of pounds of blood and flesh in the temple . his beloved solomon used to have lot of prostitutes in the ot , but solomon never got the adultery punishment applied on him, apparently the shedding of innocent animal was enough to cool off your god. your god definitely liked human sacrifices because in hebrews animal sacrifices weren’t rocking his boat. he even said he gave bad commands to the jews which involved killing their children, but we know he really meant they were good commands because yhwh needs human offering to cool him off.

I don’t get it when a Christian like you will say this, when your salvation is depended on blood. Not the blood of animals but human blood. That is abomination. Abraham sacrificed a ram and that is what we are doing. The meat is for food and the sacrifice is symbolic to Abraham’s obedience to God.

The memorial of someone else’s sacrifice is transformed in to a sacrificial ritual itself. How’s about that?

Apparently Mohammed liked blood too much to let go.

We moved on to higher things.

I say;
It is not only the ram sacrifice that Abraham did, that we are doing now. We are doing other things that Abraham and his family did in obedience to God. i.e. praying for his family, throwing stones to the devil/satan, worshiping his(Abraham’s) only one true God of Jesus, who sent Jesus according to Jesus himself, visiting the first house of worship of the only one God of him(Abraham) and many more.

You single out only the ram sacrifice to bash. Why are the Jews still celebrating the pass over, if you want us to move on to a higher things?

What is the higher thing? Is it not praying to one God of Abraham anytime like the Muslims are doing?

“You single out only the ram sacrifice to bash. Why are the Jews still celebrating the pass over, if you want us to move on to a higher things?
What is the higher thing? Is it not praying to one God of Abraham anytime like the Muslims are doing?”

All your add-ons are unbiblical idolatry from my point of view. The Jews never sacrificed to celebrate the piety of Abraham.

How can they celebrate the Passover iaw the law without a priesthood and a high priest?

“All your add-ons are unbiblical idolatry from my point of view. The Jews never sacrificed to celebrate the piety of Abraham.”

and you need to celebrate the story of a god coming back in the flesh and you use the FLESHY acts of your god to tell you how much he loves you. these are your pagan add-ons.

this is a funny one coming from a idolatrous pagan like you. your god NEEDED a meat body and told you christians to connect with this meat body .

animal sacrifices became IDOLATROUS in your own holy book because people started to DEPEND on the animal MORE than depending on god. didn’t your god know that it was better one trust in his invisible self ?

i find it funny that your god knew that jews BECAME idolatrous in DEPENDING on BLOOD of animal, instead of FIXING the problem, he becomes a human and KILLS himself in the flesh and now wants you christians to have a magnetism to the flesh.

i mean look at your words “god in flesh”

“god walked the earth”

“god BECAME a man”

“god SUFFERED”

and can i ask about your “add-ons”

when did yhwh say in isaiah that he needs human blood or “god-man” BLOOD before he can connect with you?

can i ask, what is wrong with EMULATING the act of saving a human life and abhoring human sacrifice?

can i ask, what is wrong with celebrating the idea that one should willingly do the will of God?

brother intellect, madman accused every muslim here of idolatry. go on his blog and see what he has written

in every slaughter ritual the name of God is invoked.

can you tell me how emulating abrahams ACT is idolatrous when God Himself is invoked before every slaughter?

can you tell me how this is IDOLATROUS?

another question. abraham is the guy who argued that celestial bodies do not deserve to be worshiped, what more would he say about an eating, drinking and breathing god who NEEDED celestial bodies like the sun to live?

brother intellect, madman accused every muslim here of idolatry. go on his blog and see what he has written

I say;
A pot calling a white tea cup black. Jesus is an image and the Bible clearly said so here

The Ten Commandments

Exodus 20
4“You shall not make for yourself an idol, or any likeness of what is in heaven above or on the earth beneath or in the water under the earth. 5“You shall not worship them or serve them; for I, the LORD your God, am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers on the children, on the third and the fourth generations of those who hate Me, 6but showing lovingkindness to thousands, to those who love Me and keep My commandments.
————–

But madmanna worships Jesus and eats his blood. What is more idolatrous than this madmanna.
In addition, madmanna believes God can forgive any one if he wishes and he forgives those who do not believe Jesus died for his sins. What kind of a Christian is this madmanna?
With the above believe he held the Muslim position and therefore is not a Christian but he worships Jesus who is an image and therefore violating the above biblical verse.

I responded to him on that thread several times hoping he will respond and he never responded. He has seen the truth but will never accept it.

“Do you pray for Abraham and his family daily? Muslims do that.
Do you sacrifice ram annually like how Abraham did? Muslims do that.
Do you perform the rituals of Abraham obedience to God? Muslims do that.
That is the ransom of mighty sacrifice to Abraham and his family.”

If you read the Quran, it is referring to the mighty sacrifice as a generational sacrifice for people like us Muslims to be performing after Abraham. The sacrifice is ransom to Abraham himself and not to his son according to the Quran. The provision of the ram by God Himself is a mighty one i.e. a ram from Almighty to be sacrificed. It is a mighty one and has nothing to do with a blood of human being.

Momentous sacrifice is getting a ram out of a sudden and miraculously from God. That is momentous and mighty
Read the Quran.
He said: “I will go to my Lord! He will surely guide me!
“O my Lord! Grant me a righteous (son)!”
So We gave him the good news of a forbearing son.
Then, when (the son) reached (the age of) (serious) work with him, he said: “O my son! I have seen in a vision that I offer thee in sacrifice: now see what is thy view!” (The son) said: “O my father! Do as thou art commanded: thou will find me, if Allah so wills, one of the steadfast!”
So when they had both submitted (to Allah), and he had laid him prostrate on his forehead (for sacrifice),
We called out to him “O Abraham! …
“Thou hast already fulfilled the vision!” – thus indeed do We reward those who do right.
For this was a clear trial-
And We ransomed him with a momentous sacrifice:
And We left for him among generations (to come) in later times:
“Peace and salutation to Abraham!”
Thus indeed do We reward those who do right.
For he was one of Our believing Servants.

LOL, the German pagan accuses Muslims of being “idolatrous”! That’s rich!

Madman, you worship a man you mook! That’s idolatry. Critics of Christianity have recognized this wanton idolatry since the beginning of this pagan religion. Look at how the heretic Justin Martyr excused Christian idolatry:

“For they proclaim our madness to consist in this, that we give to a crucified man a place second to the unchangeable and eternal God, the Creator of all; for they do not discern the mystery that is herein, to which, as we make it plain to you, we pray you to give heed.”

In contrast,emulating Abraham (pbuh) in his piety is not “idolatry”. Madman simply is making up his own definition.

Regarding atonement, I remember having a discussion with madman a few years back (before I got to know his alter-ego) in which I repeatedly pressed to him why Jonah’s people were forgiven without any sacrifice. Despite multiple times asking him to clarify, I got no response from madman. He simply ignored the question over and over again. It seems to me that the story of Jonah really bothers these Christian nutjobs. They simply do not have an explanation for why there was no sacrifice required for the atonement of the Ninevites.

I cannot help it if you do not study and try to sincerely understand Christian theology.”

And maybe you should read Jonah and explain why the Ninevites were not required to make a sacrifice to atone for their sins. Maybe you should read Leviticus where it states that a person can even offer wheat if that is all he can afford. Hence, blood is not the prerequisite for atonement. It is the act of piety before God.

While you are at it, maybe you should read Ezekiel again and explain why the sacrificial system and the laws of the Torah were supposed to last forever instead of being replaced by a human sacrifice which is regarded as an abomination in the Tanakh,

We cannot help it if you bumbling Christians misquote the Tanakh instead of trying to sincerely understand what it actually says.

“The son of Abraham was ransomed by substitution of the ram in the biblical record.

Necessary for atonement because of Abraham’s sin.”

get the biblical RECORD straight. abraham was GOING TO BURN his child as an OLAH offering to yhwh. why would he do that if his kid was “born in sin” ?

quote :
Sacrifice him there as a burnt offering on a mountain I will show you.”

OLAH offering. yhwh told abraham TO BURN his son as an offering to yhwh.

quote :
“The fire and wood are here,” Isaac said, “but where is the lamb for the burnt offering?”

well isaac, you gonna be the object of BURNING . ABSOLUTELY NO MENTION is made of SIN.

how can it BE about SIN when it is ABOUT TESTING ABRAHAM?

the whole point was OBEDIENCE, nothing to do with “man-god” who BEGS his dad to REMOVE the cup and cries 3 times and REPEATS his prayer IN VAIN.

QUOTE :
Islam substitutes a sacrifice of the piety of Abraham being offered up by Muslims in emulation and celebration of Abraham.

END QUOTE

IN EVERY SACRIFICE THE NAME OF GOD IS MENTIONED. SO WHEN A MUSLIM SLICES THE NECK OF AN ANIMAL, GOD IS INVOKED.

in christianity as jesus is being “sacrificed” jesus SAW himself as CO-EQUIVALENT to yhwh, this would be DISGUSTING IDOLATRY BECAUSE no jewish MARTYR AS he is DYING would see himself as EQUIVALENT to yhwh.

within the “celebration” INVOLVES THAT A MUSLIM REMEMBER ALLAH, TURN TO ALLAH, INVOKE ALLAH, CALL UPON ALLAH.

i don’t think that in the quran there is even an idea with regards to abrahams slaughter of the animal that the animal was “sinless”
i don’ t think the arabic fa da ya root employed in different forms in the quran covers ideas of christians in which they need INNOCENT blood .

To be described as perfect in the OT is not sinless perfection which excludes the need of grace.

The offering of Abraham’s son was in the context of his offering of the burnt offering for atonement.

This offering was continuously offered throughout the OT from Adam to Christ.

Once Abraham passed the past Islam only sees sacrifice as a means of offering up the piety of the individual through the piety of Abraham. The original purpose of the burnt offering is jettisoned and replaced with a meaning alien to the OT. This is the idolatry.

Ignoramus, why don’t you back up any of your asinine claims? Your personal opinions don’t matter and no one cares what you personally think.

Where does it say that to be perfect does not mean sinless? Why did God say to Abraham to be blameless?

The sacrificial system was not supposed to last forever. But of course, if you ask the Jews, they will say that it will last forever as per Ezekiel. That is why Christianity is definitely false. It contradicts it’s own scripture.

The fact is that the sacrificial system was only for the Jews. And it was never meant to serve as a permanent replacement for sincere repentance, as shown by the fact that Jews spent decades in Babylon without a temple or sacrificial system.

Nor did the system place a strict prerequisite for blood to be spilled. This is shown by the fact that a person could offer wheat as a substitute if he could not offer a ram or some other animal. This disproves Christianity’s fanatic obsession with blood atonement.

“The original purpose of the burnt offering is jettisoned and replaced with a meaning alien to the OT. This is the idolatry.”

LOL, no. The idolatry is on the part of Christianity, which jettisoned the animal sacrifice with a human sacrifice, which is an abomination. Only the false pagan gods demanded human sacrifices. The God of Abraham, Moses, Jesus and Muhammad (peace be upon them all) is above such idolatrous and evil demands.

Your logic makes the Bible self-contradictory, which is of course no problem for me. It doesn’t make sense to refer to Noah as perfect and then say that he had to make a sin offering. Either he was perfect or he wasn’t. Therefore, the offering must have been for something else.

What difference does it make if they had no covenant? If your asinine claim is true, that God only accepts a blood atonement, then why were the Ninevites allowed to atone without a blood sacrifice? It should be obvious to any nitwit that God does not require blood as a prerequisite. That is the true spirit of the sacrificial system. What really counts is a sincere repentance, not the blood of some animal.

The messenger to the Ninevites WAS Jonah, you crackpot! LOL, how dumb are you?

“Why was there no messenger to Ninevah from among their own people as the Quran claims there was always a messenger to the peoples before Mohammed?”

Um, silly Ignoramus, don’t you realize that Moses (peace be upon him) was sent to the Israelites AND the Egyptians? You see, Ignoramus, your “Yahweh” is shown to be a tribal god, whereas the true God of the Prophets, Allah (Glorified and Exalted be He), is a universal God, the God of all people who sends messengers to all people. Jonah (peace be upon him) was a righteous man, who lived among the Ninevites. That is why the Quran refers to them as the “people of Yunus (Jonah)” (Surah 10:98).

2. Could have been an offering to say “thank you” like Noah did and had nothing to do with the rituals created later on.

3. the meanings change. The temple sacrifice meaning would not have been the meaning in the time of Abraham or Noah.

4.
since fristians worship a human being, I was wondering whether you guys derive your pagan worship FROM the sacrificial animal? after all you do say that the animal is “sinless”

a Hebrew never seemed to worship an ANIMAL, but fristians are alright with worshipping the SACRIFICED item called jesoz krist. Talk about IDOLATRY

now where does “Islam offer piety of individual by OFFERING it THROUGH the piety of abraham?”

Symbolize and remembering have nothing to do with idolatry.

REMEMBERING GOD LIKE ABRAHAM did
NO MENTION OF ABRAHAM IN THE ACTUAL SLAUGHTER. HAVING THE INTENTION THAT ALL LIFE INCLUDING THE SACRIFICED ANIMAL BELONGS TO GOD . ONE SHOULD WILLINGLY GIVE UP his LIFE WHEN AND WHERE GOD WANTS AND not become reluctant like jehsoz.

Did Abraham FALTER in doing the will of god? if he didn’t falter , then his olah offering which was supposed to be his son WAS the representation of the will of god. If Abraham faltered ,and begged his god to save his son, then Abraham faltered and would be a sinner like Jesus for faltering .so your god CANNOT BE a perfect olah . olah = representation of the will of god and jehzos krist said SAVE me .so this implies ABRAHAM WAS MORE PERFECT IN his olah than jehsoz krist, and his offering represented a sacrificer who did not falter in doing the WILL of god.
So olah in the case of Abraham can only be about DOING THE WILL of GOD and Abraham seems to pass . so in what sense was Abraham’s offer in connection to his sins, when olah represent WILL of god and Abraham DID will of god without faltering in the situation of killing his kid?
Unintentional sins? olah = unintentional sins ?

notice how these missionaries make abraham ritualistic to the core ? in the story , abraham willingly wanted to do the WILL of god by BURNING his child and this must go beyond your words “tithe is an obligation”
he was going to burn his child because he was obligated or because he wanted to do the will of god ?
did he see RITUAL in the command of god? and what we see is that abraham was not obligated because “god WILL provide”
abraham got rewarded for not being a RELUCTANT coward like jesus krist who faulted peoples faith but when it came to his time, he start BEGGING god to SAVE him.

abraham must have seen BEYOND ritual when he said “god WILL provide”

if abraham was the ritualistic pagan christian you paint him to be, he wouldn’t have gone of to a mountain , he would have done the sacrifice near places where animals were easily accessible.

in his conscious, the man did not think, “hey maybe if my son is saved, i may need to KILL an animal instead”

“or i’ll KILL my son and AN ANIMAL because i am a RITUALISTIC pagan christian ”

you ruin abrahams story in genesis by injecting your pagan religion into it. i am sure abraham was thinking beyond “tithe” when he DELIBERATELY did not TAKE an animal ALONG with his son.

don’t tell me about mediator and idolatry next time. it is you who worships the SACRIFICED thing as god
it is you worship says “fully man and fully god” = 1 person, so you worship SACRIFICED 1 person and the human part is mediator to the SAME person.

where do ANIMAL sacrifices point to a messiah who will be worshiped as yhwh . this “add-on” where did it come from ?

The Olah is a burnt-offering, i.e., it is placed on the altar and completely consumed by the fire. Before the Levitical law of sacrifices was established (see Leviticus 1-7), such offerings were entirely voluntary and had nothing to do with the remission of sins. So that your two examples of Olah offerings – by Noah & Abraham – are simply for gratitude and not for any particular sin. In Leviticus 1 you will see that an Olah offering can achieve atonement.

Sure they did – Genesis 8:20-21 (first time Olah used in Hebrew Bible) shows the burnt offering & context of the sinfulness of mankind and the worship and sacrifice almost ALWAYS (unless the specific context shows, as in the grain offerings) had some aspect of repentance and contrition over sin. One cannot worship God without part of that worship being confession of sin and repentance from sin, and mourning over our sin.

Nevertheless, Leviticus 1-7 and 16-17 are clear that they are Mosaic laws with reference to sin.

Furthermore, Genesis 3, when God killed animals for clothing for Adam and Eve, AFTER they sinned, points to the shedding of blood for atonement for sin.

What sins did Noah confess before he did the burnt offering? where is an olah used for deeds in Noah’s time? God already SAVED Noah from disaster before Noah did any burning of animals? Shouldn’t Noah have done the burning before he embarked on the ark you ritualistic pagan man worshipping temple? Noah BURNED the animals and the smell of burning flesh of animal is a pleasing aroma to yhwh, why would yhwh undo his PLEASING AROMA through a pagan sacrifice in which pagans sacrifice Jesus? that pleasing aroma stopped flooding 2.

ken, since god created Adam from scratch, he could have created skin from scratch too, right?

What about all the sacrifices of children and infants, do they point to jesoz? if jesoz is the animal which carries away sins, should Jews bomb him when he attempts to come back a second time? I mean if animals came back, then he would bring back all the sins.

LOL, the only people who buy this nonsense are Christians who have been taught to believe these claims without question. They basically reduce their own status to parrots who blindly repeat the company line. Ken is obviously one such person…I mean parrot. Polly want a cracker?

The following is from my article on the book of Daniel and the nonsense about the 70 weeks and the death of the Messiah. Christians peddle this lie to try to deceive the gullible, but people who actually take the time to research their claims will find that they are without merit:

Christian apologists insist that the Book of Daniel predicted the coming of Jesus (peace be upon him) as well as his crucifixion.[204] So is there evidence that certain parts of the Book of Daniel predict the coming of Jesus (peace be upon him)? An objective analysis of the text will show that the answer to this question is “no”.

According to Daniel 9:25, there would be 69 “sevens” (i.e. weeks), which in the context of the chapter refers to 69 periods of seven years each,[205] from the decree to rebuild Jerusalem and the coming of the “Anointed One”. In total, “seventy sevens” or 490 years were to pass before the Jews would be redeemed.[206] The prophecy also states that the “Anointed One will be put to death and will have nothing”, which Christians interpret as referring to the crucifixion of Jesus (peace be upon him),[207] followed by the destruction of Jerusalem and the placing of the “abomination that causes desolation” in the temple, which they interpret as referring to the Roman conquest of Jerusalem in 70 CE.[208]

However, the context simply does not allow for such an interpretation. In fact, the events described in Daniel 9 can be reliably traced to historical events which occurred during the struggle between the Jews and the Seleucids in the 2nd-century BCE, and not the 1st-century CE. As Hammer explains:

“…the final week (i.e. seven years) is the crucial period, starting with the murder of Onias III, the high priest (described as the removal of ‘one who is anointed’ in verse 26) in 171 B.C. Halfway through this period has occurred the desecration of the temple, when Antiochus ‘put a stop to sacrifice and offering’ (verse 27).”[209]

“[i]n the context of the other historical references…the anointed leader probably refers to either Zerubbabel or the high priest Joshua (Ezra 3.2; Hag. ch 1; Zech. 6.9-15, while the anointed one is most likely the high priest Onias III, killed in 171 BCE (2 Macc. 4.30-34).”[210]

Another reason the prophecy cannot be referring to Jesus (peace be upon him) is that the death of the “Anointed One” was supposed to happen 62 weeks (434 years) after the declaration to rebuild Jerusalem. The year of Jesus’ alleged death is not known with any certainty, though Christians generally settle for the year 30 CE. However, since Christians also cannot ascertain with certainty as to when the declaration to rebuild Jerusalem was even made, only through generous assumptions can they finagle the chronology of events to coincide (and only roughly at that!) with the approximate year of Jesus’ death! For example, Christian apologist Matt Slick admits:

“…there is much debate among scholars regarding the decree to which Daniel is referring. There does not seem to be an easy solution.”[211]

He and other apologists generally settle on the year 457 BCE as the most likely date of the declaration, but even with that assumption, the prophecy fails to complete the full 483 years required, since 483 minus 457 equals 26. In other words, the death of the “Anointed One” should have occurred in the year 26 BCE. But, the earliest date for Jesus’ death is assumed to be 30 CE![212]

Moreover, as Chris Sandoval notes, the Christian interpretation ignores the clear parallels between chapters 8 and 9, the former of which definitely refers to the tyranny of Antiochus IV.[213] Thus, the interpretation posited by Christians is rather fanciful.[214] It is clear that the correct interpretation is that the prophecy was referring to events in the 2nd-century BCE.

“Seventy weeks (seventy periods of seven years = 490 years from the decree to rebuild Jerusalem) have been decreed for your people and your holy city, to finish the transgression, to make an end of sin, to make atonement for iniquity, . . . (focus on those 3 purposes – all about atonement for sin) (verse 24)

that from the issuing of a decree to restore and rebuild Jerusalem until Messiah the Prince there will be seven weeks and sixty-two weeks; (verse 25)

(483 years – Messiah appears, or is anointed at His baptism – causes Magi in Persian Empire to come to Jerusalem because the prophesy was spoken and written by Daniel in Persia around 500 BC.

and 7 weeks (7 periods of seven years = 49 years
and 62 periods of seven years = 434 years
49 + 434 = 483 years – brings us to either time around Jesus’ birth or Jesus’ baptism, depending on which of the decrees of Persian kings one starts with. (Darius the Great and Ardeshir (Artaxerxes) issued decrees to rebuild the city of Jerusalem. books of Ezra and Nehemiah).

Then after the sixty-two weeks the Messiah will be cut off (see Isaiah 53:8 for similar concept of being cut off = killed)
and have nothing, and the people of the prince who is to come will destroy the city and the sanctuary. (verse 26)

the sanctuary was destroyed later in 70 AD – verse 27 – “desolations are determined” (prophesied by Jesus around 30 AD in Matthew 24)

None of the dates you mention can be verified. You just assume them to make your case. It’s a circular argument. You don’t know when the prophecy was made nor when Jesus was actually born or (allegedly) died. It’s just one big scam to deceive the gullible.

Yes we do know those dates, that are reasonably argumented by conservative scholars – Daniel was written around 530 BC in Persia, he prophesied the Daniel 9 prophesy a few years earlier around 539 BC. We know Jesus was born around 6-4 BC (BC because of a mistake made by a monk in the 500s, when they started the BC and AD calendar calculations. Before then, they had to go by Roman and Greek sources and they obviously had different dating systems. The death of Christ is established by history around 30 AD, and because of the weight of evidence for it; it totally demolishes Islam.

You and your conservative scholars make up dates to suit your needs. It’s very dishonest. Your idiotic arguments have been demolished by actual scholarship and your religion with it. Get over it, you fool.

Faiz,
I looked over your article and I will give you credit for a lot of work and citations and research; although your sources are mostly liberal and they all treat Daniel with an anti-supernatural bias – the main reason they don’t beleive Daniel was written in 530 BC is because they a-priori dismiss supernatural prophesies. Which is not permissible or consistent with an Islamic viewpoint. It is a combination of using liberal scholars and Jewish scholars, so of course they are not going to agree with the conservative Bible believing Christian scholarship.

At least you interacted some with one person (Mack Slick) who holds to the conservative position.

The year of 26 AD points to when the Messiah was anointed at His baptism.

Daniel 9:25 – “until Messiah the Prince” points to His public appearing/anointing at His baptism. (so year 26 AD is good and reasonable)

3 and 1/2 years later – crucifixion and death. (middle of last period of seven years)

verse 25 – So you are to know and discern that from the issuing of a decree to restore and rebuild Jerusalem until Messiah the Prince there will be seven weeks and sixty-two weeks; it will be built again, with plaza and moat, even in times of distress.

after that time period the messiah is cut off – verse 26 – but he tells us later it is in the middle of the seven years that the sacrifices cease, which shows that the effect of Jesus Messiah as the final sacrifice caused all the temple sacrifices after that to be of no effect or power.

The abominations of the temple are decreed or determined by Jesus in 30 AD (Matthew 24) right before His crucifixion.

Constable: “1. Most of
the church fathers and the older orthodox interpreters find prophesied here
the appearance of Christ in the flesh, His death, and the destruction of
Jerusalem by the Romans.” (page 121-122, Notes on Daniel, Constable.)

The first view is the view I take on Daniel. Constable lists 3: 1. the one above, 2. the liberal view, and 3. an eschatological one about Israel and the ends times (Constable’s view)

Except for his eschatological scheme (a large gap between the 69th and 70th week, of “the church age”, and that the last period of seven years is a seven year tribulation for Israel – I don’t buy into that Pre-tribulational / Israel restored future to us scheme) he is mostly right on most other matters about Daniel.

Gleason Archer writes, “Despite the numerous objections which have been advanced by scholars who regard this as a prophecy written after the event, there is no good reason for denying to the sixth-century Daniel the composition of the entire work. This represents a collection of his memoirs made at the end of a long and eventful career which included government service from the reign of Nebuchadnezzar in the 590s [605?] to the reign of Cyrus the Great in the 530s [BC]. The appearance of Persian technical terms indicates a final recension of these memoirs at a time when Persian terminology had already infiltrated into the vocabulary of Aramaic. The most likely date of the final edition of the book, therefore, would be about 530 B.C. (Gleason L. Archer, Jr. A Survey of Old Testament Introduction, page 387).

1. Manuscript Evidence: Manuscripts discovered at Qumran (e.g., a Florilegium found in cave 4Q), which date from the Maccabean period make it very unlikely that the book was written during the time of the Maccabees (e.g., 168 B.C.) since it would have taken some time for it to have been accepted and included in the canon13

2. Linguistic Evidence:

a. Aramaic: Daniel’s Aramaic demonstrates grammatical evidences for an early date more closely associated with the seventh and sixth centuries B.C. than with the second century B.C.14

b. Persian:

1) Persian loan words in Daniel do not necessarily argue against an early date for the book since Daniel, who lived under the Persians, could have placed the material in its final form at the latter part of his life15

2) Four of the nineteen Persian words are not translated well by the Greek renderings of about 100 B.C. implying that their meaning was lost or drastically changed meaning that it is very unlikely that Daniel was written in 165 B.C.16

3) The Persian words which are cited in Daniel are specifically old Persian words dating from around 300 B.C. This argues against a 165 date17

c. Greek: Three Greek loan words in Daniel need not argue for a late date since there may well have been Greek writing prior to Plato (370 B.C.) where these words could have been used, and since they are the names of musical instruments which often are circulated beyond national boundaries, and since Greek words are found in the Aramaic documents of Elephantine dated to the fifth-century B.C.18

3. Apocalyptic Evidence: The themes of the prominance of angels, the last judgment, the resurrection of the dead, and the establishment of the final kingdom are not themes that are limited to later apocryphal literature, but have their roots in earlier biblical literature and even Zechariah19

4. Literary Evidence: The reason the development of history seems to stop with Antiochus IV Epiphanes is not necessarily because that was when the writer lived; it is probably for literary/theological reasons, he best foreshadows the Antichrist to come20

5. Predictive Evidence: The fourth empire in Daniel 2 is not that of the Greeks as those who hold to a late date affirm; this is substantiated by the vision in chapter 7 were the second empire is not Media and the third empire is not Perisa, but is Greece which divides into four (the Persian empire never divided into four parts). This is also substantiated in Daniel 9 with the vision of the ram and the he-goat (with one horn and then four horns–divided Greece).21

Yes, because talking about “demolishing” Islam is not akin to Shamounian antics. You’re breaking my heart, Ken! Here, I’m playing the world’s smallest violin for you:

By the way, Surah Al-Ankaboot says to use kind words when discussing with the people of the book UNLESS you are dealing with someone who has done wrong. Apologists like you promote you own views and dismiss anyone who disagrees. Not only that, but you make false claims against Islam and Muslims. I’ve known you long enough and seen enough of your material to know who I am dealing with.

You obviously haven’t read my article because I already dealt with the claims you make. I referred to David Malick and Gleason Archer. And based on the complete set of evidence, this was my conclusion:

” While debates regarding the date of composition will no doubt continue, it seems unlikely that the Book of Daniel was actually written in the 6th-century BCE, as apologists often claim. However, it also seems unlikely that the entire book was written in the 2nd-century BCE. The presence of “Daniel” in the Dead Sea Scrolls certainly shows that a 2nd-century BCE date is unlikely, at least for the entire book (if the book was actually written in two parts).[20] Furthermore, the claim that certain linguistic features in the Book of Daniel, such as the use of Greek words, prove a 2nd-century BCE date are weak. As the Christian scholar David Malick states:
“Three Greek loan words in Daniel need not argue for a late date since there may well have been Greek writing prior to Plato (370 B.C.) where these words could have been used, and since they are the names of musical instruments which often are circulated beyond national boundaries, and since Greek words are found in the Aramaic documents of Elephantine dated to the fifth-century B.C.”[21]
Michael Shepherd, professor of Old Testament and Hebrew at Louisiana College, provides a more cautious view and seems to be the most reasonable since it avoids the two “extreme” positions. He states:
“…it is best to say that the sixth century date and the second century date are two extremes on a spectrum and that the actual date of the book could be anywhere in between the two.”[22]
Thus, as far as a date of composition is concerned, it seems likely that the Book of Daniel could have been written earlier than the 2nd-century BCE, but most certainly received its final form by that time. There is also little doubt that the last six chapters were written during the Maccabean revolt and the traditional suggestion that the entire book was written in the 6th-century BCE is without merit.”

Regarding the Florilegium, I wrote (note #20):

“As Christian apologist David Malick points out:

“Manuscripts discovered at Qumran (e.g., a Florilegium found in cave 4Q), which date from the Maccabean period make it very unlikely that the book was written during the time of the Maccabees (e.g., 168 B.C.) since it would have taken some time for it to have been accepted and included in the canon” (https://bible.org/article/introduction-book-daniel).

Of course, this does not mean that the entire book was present at Qumran. More likely, some parts may have been present (including a variant story involving the Babylonian king Nabonidus, as we shall see later), while the second part of the book was still in the process of being written.”

Moreover, appealing to the Dead Sea scrolls backfires for Christians because they expose variants in the text. The biggest one is regarding the identity of the king of Babylon who went insane. I wrote in my article:

“he Dead Sea Scrolls provide historical evidence that the Book of Daniel enjoyed widespread acceptance by Jews as early as the 2nd-century BCE, shortly after it received its final form. However, the Dead Sea Scrolls also provide evidence of a variant version of the story recounted in chapter 4. For among the many manuscripts discovered in the caves of the Dead Sea valley, one particular scroll known as “The Prayer of Nabonidus” shows that it was this king, and not Nebuchadnezzar, who was stricken with a disease “for a period of seven years”.[178] Of course, this in itself does not prove that the historical Nabonidus was actually stricken with a disease and repented of his sins, though there are possible parallels between his sojourn in Arabia (for which we know very little about) and the seven-year period of insanity described in the Bible and “The Prayer of Nabonidus” scroll.[179] However, what we can be almost certain about is that the original story in chapter 4 was not about Nebuchadnezzar, but Nabonidus, regardless of whether the story is historically accurate or not.”

There are very good reasons to conclude that the last few chapters of Daniel were written around the time of the Seleucid empire. For example, I wrote:

“Another historical inconsistency in the first chapter is the giving of Babylonian names to Daniel and his companions. As previously mentioned, the names reflected Babylonian culture, and more specifically, the religion of Babylon (see note #25). However, as also previously noted, the names were actually incorrect and “mangled” forms of Babylonian names. This fact naturally raises some logical questions:
1. Why would the Babylonians have deliberately given such names to Daniel and his companions?
2. Why would they deliberately insult their gods and religion?
Since there would have been no reason for the Babylonians to give such insulting names, scholars agree that they are the author’s own invention or a later corruption.[173] In either case, what is more interesting is that the practice of giving foreign names was very common in the later Hellenistic period. As Hammer explains:
“[t]his practice was very common in the Greek period and encouraged in the Hellenizing policy of the Ptolemies and Seleucids.”[174]
Thus, the claim that Daniel and his companions were given (corrupted) Babylonian names may actually just be a reflection of the practice of the Greeks, a practice which was naturally detested by the author.”

True; I did not read every word closely.
“Looked over”; skimmed; doesn’t mean I read every word; but thanks for pointing out you did refer to Gleason Archer and David Malick’s article.

It all comes down who believes in the God who sends prophets and the ability of God to send prophets to supernaturally predict the future and write God-breathed Scripture.

The scholars in the west have freedom to question doctrines like supernatural prophesy and God-breathed written Scripture; but in the Muslim world, there is not there freedom – questioning the Qur’an can be dangerous for scholars there. Big difference.

KT://Then after the sixty-two weeks the Messiah will be cut off (see Isaiah 53:8 for similar concept of being cut off = killed) and have nothing, and the people of the prince who is to come will destroy the city and the sanctuary. (verse 26) the sanctuary was destroyed later in 70 AD – verse 27 – “desolations are determined” (prophesied by Jesus around 30 AD in Matthew 24)//

Again one flawed interpretation, there is no definite article “the” in Daniel 9:25 in original hebrew.

The word עַד־מָשִׁ֣יחַ Ad-mashiakh or “anointed one” is translated as “Messiah” but it should not be in this case since it is not a reference to Messiah but a reference to one who is anointed. There is no definite article (Hey ~ ה) before the word (משיח ~ Moshiach)

(Kings are considered anointed as it says in 1 Chronicles 11:3) who was killed during this time. It also refers to the last High priest (priests are anointed as seen in Leviticus 4) and the sacrifices (indicated in Leviticus 8:10-11). All three subjects were considered anointed and were cut off during the final week before the destruction of the second Temple.

Remember there are two anointed subjects, one after 7 weeks and another after an additional 62 weeks. The first “anointed” individual identified as a prince/leader in Daniel 9:25 is King Cyrus, who came 7 weeks of years after the destruction of Jerusalem. Then from Cyrus’ Decree to rebuild Jerusalem, “it will be built again” for an additional 62 weeks (434 years). But “in troubled times,” Daniel 9:25, meaning under the foreign domination of the subsequent Persian, Greek and Roman rule. The Greek is mentioned in Daniel 11:2 and Roman alluded to in Daniel 1:30 where the word (כתים ~ Kittim) refers to the Roman capital of Constantinople)

Then in the 69th week (483 years) after the destruction of the first Temple and 1 week (7 years) before the destruction of the second Temple, an anointed one is cut off.

The fact that there is no definite article indicates that this can refer to several different anointed subjects. King Agrippa the last King of Israel (Kings are considered anointed as it says in 1 Chronicles 11:3) who was killed during this time. It also refers to the last High priest (priests are anointed as seen in Leviticus 4) and the sacrifices (indicated in Leviticus 8:10-11). All three subjects were considered anointed and were cut off during the final week before the destruction of the second Temple.

. . . but it should not be in this case since it is not a reference to Messiah but a reference to one who is anointed. There is no definite article (Hey ~ ה) before the word (משיח ~ Moshiach)

You are correct that there is no definite article there, but that does not mean that it cannot be translated “messiah” or “the Messiah”, since “The Messiah” means “the anointed one”.

The lack of definite article does not mean necessarily that there are 2 different anointed ones – the context and flow shows that this is the same person – the first is his appearing or beginning of ministry, His anointing at His baptism – anointing of the Holy Spirit coming upon Him in 26 AD, and the second is His being cut off or crucified in 30 AD. (3 and 1/2 years later).

The context points to the Messiah who would
1. finish the transgression,
2. to make an end of sin,
3. to make atonement for iniquity,

The first 3 tasks point to the effectiveness and finality of the atonement of Jesus Christ at the cross and His power to forgive sins.

4. to bring in everlasting righteousness, – points to the true teaching of bringing in the Messiah’s righteousness and character and only He is perfectly righteous ; and people can only become righteous by trusting in the Righteous One – 2 Corinthians 5:21 – “He made Him who knew no sin to be (treated as) sin on our behalf; so that we might become the righteousness of God in Him” – justification by faith alone in John, Acts, Galatians and Romans, Ephesians, Philippians 3:9, etc.

5. to seal up vision and prophecy – points to the finality of the ministry of Jesus and His apostles who wrote the NT Scripture and ending of revelation.
and
6. to anoint the most holy (place or person) – points to the holy and pure character of Jesus Himself and His anointing with the Holy Spirit. (see Acts 10:38)

Those 6 things were only fulfilled by the Messiah (anointed one), Jesus Christ. “the anointed one” in Arabic is Al Masih المسیح

yes, kings and priests are also called “anointed”; agreed. But context rules.

But “in troubled times,” Daniel 9:25, meaning under the foreign domination of the subsequent Persian, Greek and Roman rule.

Interesting that this interpretation agrees that the prophesy extends into the Roman era. Even some of the Jewish interpreters that Faiz quoted extended the prophesy into the Roman times, about Agrippa, etc.

. . . Roman alluded to in Daniel 1:30 where the word (כתים ~ Kittim) refers to the Roman capital of Constantinople)

There is no Daniel 1:30.

Most scholars see the ships of Kittim as ships from Cyprus or other islands or coasts in the Mediterranean Sea west of Israel. I have never seen a source say that this means “Constantinople”. It was called the city of Byzantium then anyway, and only named Constantinople much later – centuries later, after 300s AD.

//Wrong!
עַד־מָשִׁ֣יחַ Ad-mashiakh = “until Messiah”
עד = “until”//
“ad” עַד is just a preposition, of course one who knew even basic hebrew know that it means “until, by, to, through” (depending on the context) , we are talking about your skewed translation on the phrase “the messiah” where the fact there is no such a thing in the hebrew . The correct translation: “an anointed one” the word is used dozens of times to speak of David, Saul, Solomon and others as “anointed one” .
//The lack of definite article does not mean necessarily that there are 2 different anointed ones – the context and flow shows that this is the same person – the first is his appearing or beginning of ministry, His anointing at His baptism – anointing of the Holy Spirit coming upon Him in 26 AD, and the second is His being cut off or crucified in 30 AD. (3 and 1/2 years later).//
Wrong!
They are obviously two distinct time frames, not one time frame. If it were 69 the Hebrew would say shishim we tesha’ ”69″ (sixty + nine). But Daniel 9 says sabuim sebah we sabuim shishim ”7 and 62″ weeks . This should translate as seven years and sixty-two years). It is wrong if anyone says that Daniel 9 seem to talk about only one messiah when it really speaks of two messiahs / anointed ones two separate time frames and two separate anointed ones.
Your intellectually dishonest attempt to put “the” to messiah is to avoid the fact that “the 62 weeks” are completely separate from the first 7, because Daniel 9 does not say “after the 69 weeks,” but וְאַחֲרֵ֤י הַשָּׁבֻעִים֙ שִׁשִּׁ֣ים וּשְׁנַ֔יִם Ve’acharei hashavu’im shishim ushenayim meaning “after THE 62 weeks” !
Daniel 9:24-26 context was 7 + 62 years from 538 BC with Cyrus’ decree and ended with the deposition of the high priest Onias III in 175 BC and his assassination in 172. The end of Babylonian domination, the Jews would also return to Jerusalem from the Babylonian exile. The Jewish Jerusalem Temple known as the “Holy of Holies,” (קדשים קדש – Kodesh Kedoshim). It is another intellectual dishonesty to say it is a person Jesus rather than a place.
So Daniel 9:24-26 is about prophetic word (debar) Daniel received a vision to restore and rebuild Jerusalem (starting from its destruction) until an anointed Prince (Cyrus) will be seven weeks (49 years) and then for 62 weeks (434 years) it will be rebuilt in troubled times through Persian, Greek and Roman domination. The 7+62 weeks (483 years from the destruction of the first Temple) an anointed one (sacrifices, last Jewish priest and king) will be cut off and will be no more, and lastly (in the 70th week 490 years from the destruction of the first Temple).
the people of the prince (Romans) who is to come will destroy the city and the sanctuary.

“True; I did not read every word closely.
“Looked over”; skimmed; doesn’t mean I read every word; but thanks for pointing out you did refer to Gleason Archer and David Malick’s article.

It all comes down who believes in the God who sends prophets and the ability of God to send prophets to supernaturally predict the future and write God-breathed Scripture.

The scholars in the west have freedom to question doctrines like supernatural prophesy and God-breathed written Scripture; but in the Muslim world, there is not there freedom – questioning the Qur’an can be dangerous for scholars there. Big difference.”

Your red herrings aside, you have not answered my points against the early authorship of Daniel. The “evidence” provided by Malick and others is extremely weak. The internal evidence shows that the last part of the book was definitely written in the 2nd century BCE. No serious scholar doubts that. Christians base their views mostly on a priori beliefs.

Even Orthodox Jews, like Rabbi Tovia Singer, believe the book of Daniel was written by the prophet Daniel around 530 BC. So, it is not only a Christian belief. The other Jewish commentators you quoted probably also agree with this.

What sins did Noah confess before he did the burnt offering? where is an olah used for deeds in Noah’s time? God already SAVED Noah from disaster before Noah did any burning of animals? Shouldn’t Noah have done the burning before he embarked on the ark you ritualistic pagan man worshipping temple? Noah BURNED the animals and the smell of burning flesh of animal is a pleasing aroma to yhwh, why would yhwh undo his PLEASING AROMA through a pagan sacrifice in which pagans sacrifice Jesus? that pleasing aroma stopped flooding 2.

ken, since god created Adam from scratch, he could have created skin from scratch too, right?

A careful reading of the genesis story is that the deeds of bringing those animals together and burning them caused a sweet stink which yhwh inhaled. It is all good deeds over and over again. Noah TREATED god to a feast. it wasn’t the sacrifice it was the BURNING OF ALL THOSE ANIMALS . Noah built a boat = deeds again. Noah obeyed god , Noah trusted god. again, nothing in the story about pagan sacrifice please don’t spoil a happy feast with a crucified jesus.

brother faiz, few questions. I notice that Noah and Abraham had no temple to do their olah offerings, which makes me wonder if noahide can do an OLAH offering anywhere EVEN TODAY, what do you think bro?

in Isaiah yhwh says he is sick and tired of burnt offerings, was this symbolic for saying he was sick and tired of sacrificed man god?

It appears that way. The Israelites could only offer the sacrifices in the temple, but there was no such stipulation for non-Israelites. However, it does not appear that the laws required any type of “offering” from non-Israelites anyway. These are the 7 laws:

1
Acknowledge that there is only one G‑d who is Infinite and Supreme above all things. Do not replace that Supreme Being with finite idols, be it yourself, or other beings. This command includes such acts as prayer, study and meditation.

2
Respect the Creator. As frustrated and angry as you may be, do not vent it by cursing your Maker.

3
Respect human life. Every human being is an entire world. To save a life is to save that entire world. To destroy a life is to destroy an entire world. To help others live is a corollary of this principle.

4
Respect the institution of marriage. Marriage is a most Divine act. The marriage of a man and a woman is a reflection of the oneness of G‑d and His creation. Disloyalty in marriage is an assault on that oneness.

5
Respect the rights and property of others. Be honest in all your business dealings. By relying on G‑d rather than on our own conniving, we express our trust in Him as the Provider of Life.

6
Respect G‑d’s creatures. At first, Man was forbidden to consume meat. After the Great Flood, he was permitted – but with a warning: Do not cause unnecessary suffering to any creature.

7
Maintain justice. Justice is G‑d’s business, but we are given the charge to lay down necessary laws and enforce them whenever we can. When we right the wrongs of society, we are acting as partners in the act of sustaining the creation.

Job 1 v 4 And his sons went and feasted in their houses, every one his day; and sent and called for their three sisters to eat and to drink with them. 5 And it was so, when the days of their feasting were gone about, that Job sent and sanctified them, and rose up early in the morning, and offered burnt offerings according to the number of them all: for Job said, It may be that my sons have sinned, and cursed God in their hearts. Thus did Job continually.

oh my goodness you dumb asses THERE ARE NO DEEDS their , just THOUGHTS. Did jebus die for THOUGHTS? now tell me, if the burnt offerings in Noah’s time had anything to do with deeds or thoughts since yhwh ELECTED Noah and Noah saved himself from doom. Noah embarked on boat without performing any ritual of burnt offering. Noah and Abraham were already declared righteous , so their righteous DEED already cleared them . the burnt offerings in NOAH and Abraham case clearly has no connection with sin.

maybe , MAYBE not. BUT Noah, Abraham and job ALREADY DECLARED RIGHTEOUS. Did Noah AND ABRAHAM curse god in their thoughts?
did jebus DIE for your “maybe” thoughts and not deeds? Did job perform olah for HIS thoughts?

LOL, we can see the deception of these apologists. Earlier, Ignoramus claimed that the Ninevites’ repentance without any offerings was accepted by God because there was no “covenant” between them. Yet now, he claims that Job made “burnt offerings”! But since when did Job’s people have a covenant with God? Job was not an Israelite. So why was he making burnt offerings?

Also, in the same chapter that Ignoramus quoted, Job himself is described as a “perfect and upright man”, which further refutes Ignoramus’ earlier contention that to be “perfect” did not mean sinless:

“And the Lord said unto Satan, Hast thou considered my servant Job, that there is none like him in the earth, a perfect and an upright man, one that feareth God, and escheweth evil?”

So, here we have testimony from God Himself that Job was “perfect and upright” (i.e. sinless)!

Further proof of the lies these Christians perpetuate, even to the point of misquoting their own scripture:

The Tanakh makes a distinction between a “burnt offering” and a “sin offering”. Let’s look at Ezekiel 45:

“And it shall be the prince’s part to give burnt offerings, and meat offerings, and drink offerings, in the feasts, and in the new moons, and in the sabbaths, in all solemnities of the house of Israel: he shall prepare the sin offering, and the meat offering, and the burnt offering, and the peace offerings, to make reconciliation for the house of Israel” (Ezekiel 45:17).

Here we see different types of “offerings”: sin offering, meat offering, burnt offering and peace offering. Moreover, the sin offering was to be made on the first day of the first month (verse 18), whereas the burnt offering was to be made during the seven days of the passover feast (verse 23).

We can also look at Leviticus 1-4, where the different types of offerings are differentiated. These are the facts which the Christians are either ignorant of or deliberately ignore in order to promote their pagan views on atonement.

There was once a man in the land of Uz whose name was Job. That man was blameless and upright, one who feared God and turned away from evil. 2 There were born to him seven sons and three daughters. 3 He had seven thousand sheep, three thousand camels, five hundred yoke of oxen, five hundred donkeys, and very many servants; so that this man was the greatest of all the people of the east. 4 His sons used to go and hold feasts in one another’s houses in turn; and they would send and invite their three sisters to eat and drink with them. 5 And when the feast days had run their course, Job would send and sanctify them, and he would rise early in the morning and offer burnt offerings according to the number of them all; for Job said, “It may be that my children have sinned, and cursed God in their hearts.” This is what Job always did.

////

but in Noah , Abraham and job case THEY ARE ALREADY DECLARED RIGHTEOUS. SO their thought and deed has already cleared them because they are righteous. And here it is “perhaps” so this does not mean “perhaps ” if you didn’t curse god , you SHOULDNT give olah offering. what about olah for thanking god or gratitude offering.

Did job offer for himself? His righteousness would have atoned for him. Deeds atone in Torah.
Do all olah offerings need to be FOR THOUGHTS? no.

Twice it is mentioned GOD WILL PROVIDE
GOd will provide when his son inquired
And the place gets named GOd will provide.
Job specifically mentions thought of CURSING GOD,yet Abraham is GIFTED with a burnt offering by WHOM? Who provided it?

“Noah and Abraham were already declared righteous , so their righteous DEED already cleared them . the burnt offerings in NOAH and Abraham case clearly has no connection with sin.

Like

mr.heathcliff
July 24, 2017 • 8:11 pm
maybe , MAYBE not. BUT Noah, Abraham and job ALREADY DECLARED RIGHTEOUS. Did Noah AND ABRAHAM curse god in their thoughts?
did jebus DIE for your “maybe” thoughts and not deeds? Did job perform olah for HIS thoughts?”

I reply,

Sin is a condition as well as a specific act so the burnt offering doesn’t have to be mentioned in connection with a particular sin for it to be associated with sin. You have no text to give any evidence for any alternative meaning but Job tells us why he is offering the burnt offering, namely for the possible sins of his children. This is the only place where the purpose of the offering is explained, as far as I know, and it contradicts your explanation which has no biblical text to support it.

You can’t use the same offering to show that you are perfect and a sinner. It has to be one or the other.

You only have your biased agenda arguing from silence to force the offering to have a different connotation than sin.

Of course thoughts can be sinful. How does the sinful act begin if not with the thought? There are plenty of scriptures to show this. God condemns our thoughts.

Gen 6 v 5 And GOD saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every imagination of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually.

Noah found GRACE: Gen 6 v 8 But Noah found grace in the eyes of the LORD. If he was sinless he would have no need of grace.

Abraham and Job both sinned as we are explicitly told in the bible. Abraham believed God and it was counted to him for righteousness. His works did not save him, his faith did.

Gen 15 v 6And he believed in the LORD; and he counted it to him for righteousness.

If Job lived before the tabernacle then he could have offered burnt offerings. After that time it was restricted to the tribe of Levi and the sons of Aaron.

Tell me where the word sinless occurs in the OT? No one could enter the holy of holies except the high priest once a year to make atonement for the people.

” Constable: “1. Most of
the church fathers and the older orthodox interpreters find prophesied here
the appearance of Christ in the flesh, His death, and the destruction of
Jerusalem by the Romans.” (page 121-122, Notes on Daniel, Constable.)

The first view is the view I take on Daniel. Constable lists 3: 1. the one above, 2. the liberal view, and 3. an eschatological one about Israel and the ends times (Constable’s view)

Except for his eschatological scheme (a large gap between the 69th and 70th week, of “the church age”, and that the last period of seven years is a seven year tribulation for Israel – I don’t buy into that Pre-tribulational / Israel restored future to us scheme) he is mostly right on most other matters about Daniel.

This nonsense is easily refuted by the commentary of Rashi, as I wrote in my article:

” First of all, the “Anointed One” of Daniel 9:25 was identified by Rashi as Cyrus the Great, and not the king Messiah, while the “Anointed One” who was to be “put to death” was identified as Agrippa, who was king of Judea as the time of the Roman conquest of Jerusalem in 70 CE.[217] Thus, Rashi was only referring to events he believed were to occur before the coming of the king Messiah, not during his life or after (since the conquest of Jerusalem actually happened after the time of Jesus). The actual reign of the Messiah, according to Rashi, was to occur sometime in the future.[218] Moreover, since we know from the text that the time of the end was to occur very shortly after the second “Anointed One” was to be “put to death”, there is absolutely no possibility of applying this prophecy to Jesus anyway. Also, Rashi claimed that the “abomination that causes desolation” was to remain on the Temple grounds until “the days of the king Messiah”, but it is of course well known that the pagan altar that the Romans set-up after the conquest has long disappeared from history.[219]
Second, the Christian claim that the “Messiah” would bring “atonement” for sins (based on their flawed reading of Daniel 9:24) is simply a case of interjecting their theology into the text. They assume from the start that the Messiah came to die for humanity’s sins, and then assume that Daniel 9:24 must be referring to this. But when reading Rashi’s commentary, we see nothing about the Messiah “atoning” for humanity’s sins. In fact, he only mentioned the Messiah after the ending of “transgression” and “sin”! As Rashi stated (emphasis ours):
“…so that Israel should receive their complete retribution in the exile of Titus and his subjugation, in order that their transgressions should terminate, their sins should end, and their iniquities should be expiated, in order to bring upon them eternal righteousness and to anoint upon them (sic) the Holy of Holies: the Ark, the altars, and the holy vessels, which they will bring to them through the king Messiah.”[220]
We can see that the termination of “transgressions” and the ending of “sins” needed to occur first, after which the reign of the Messiah would begin. We can also see that there is no mention of the Messiah dying for the sins of the “world”, let alone for the sins of the Jews.[221] In fact, the subjugation of the Jews under Titus was supposed to serve as expiation for their sins. In other words, they had to “atone” for their sins by suffering under Roman persecution and exile. Thus, the apologetic claims are foolish and do not warrant serious consideration.”

Leviticus 1 v f his offering be a burnt sacrifice of the herd, let him offer a male without blemish: he shall offer it of his own voluntary will at the door of the tabernacle of the congregation before the LORD. 4And he shall put his hand upon the head of the burnt offering;

Ignoramus…another parrot who blindly repeats the same tired arguments and refused to accept the facts. Leviticus and Ezekiel CLEARLY differentiate between a “burnt offering” and a “sin offering”! What don’t you nitwits get about that?

I think it is telling that none of the apologists here have dealt with the clear differentiation seen in Leviticus and Ezekiel. They simply ignore any evidence which contradicts them. Pathetic…

All the Israelites need the Passover, including Moses, to avoid being killed by the Angel of Death.

Heb 11 v 24 By faith MOSES, when he was come to years, refused to be called the son of Pharaoh’s daughter; 25 Choosing rather to suffer affliction with the people of God, than to enjoy the pleasures of sin for a season; 26 Esteeming the reproach of Christ greater riches than the treasures in Egypt: for he had respect unto the recompence of the reward. 27 By faith he forsook Egypt, not fearing the wrath of the king: for he endured, as seeing him who is invisible.

28 Through faith he kept the passover, and the sprinkling of blood, lest he that destroyed the firstborn should touch them.

Moses would not have been touched by the angel of death because the first-borns were to be killed. Moses was not the firstborn of his parents. He was the younger brother of Aaron, so it would have been Aaron who would have been killed.

Your ludicrous claims have been refuted by the evidence in Leviticus and Ezekiel. Grow up and deal with it.

If that was the case, then why wasn’t the Pharaoh killed as well? Why only his first-born son? In fact, shouldn’t the ENTIRE land of Egypt have been killed because NONE of them ate any lamb or put any blood on their houses? You’re contradicting your Bible. Heretic!

“Leviticus and Ezekiel CLEARLY differentiate between a “burnt offering” and a “sin offering”! What don’t you nitwits get about that?”

So the sin offering by itself is not enough to make atonement for the people. Only proves what I have been saying all along that sin is a condition for which atonement must be made irrespective of whether someone is conscious of specific sins or not.

How desperate are you to avoid admitting that you are wrong about something?

The fact that the sin offering is different from the burnt offering debunks your appeal to the burnt offerings made by Noah, Job and others. It was NOT a sin offering, nor did they make additional offerings. In fact, Noah’s offering was one of thanksgiving to God (see the Jewish Study Bible, p. 207).

“If that was the case, then why wasn’t the Pharaoh killed as well? Why only his first-born son? In fact, shouldn’t the ENTIRE land of Egypt have been killed because NONE of them ate any lamb or put any blood on their houses? You’re contradicting your Bible. Heretic!”

lol, they had clear instructions what they all had to do:

Exodus 12 v 6 And ye shall keep it up until the fourteenth day of the same month: and the whole assembly of the congregation of Israel shall kill it in the evening. 7And they shall take of the blood, and strike it on the two side posts and on the upper door post of the houses, wherein they shall eat it.

Oh Lord, you are such an idiot and you didn’t even answer my question! Why weren’t ALL the Egyptians killed by the angel of death if they did not do any of the things the Israelites did? When the angel of death came, why were the firstborns the only ones killed? Answer the question. You’re embarrassing yourself.

Um, because it’s not my blog you moron. It’s not my decision. Why don’t you read it and try your luck so I can have fun embarrassing you, as I will soon embarrass you when I get a chance to responsor to your latest laughable posts? 😉

If the burnt offering was not for sin then it’s purpose would not be to make atonement.

Leviticus 1 v f his offering be a burnt sacrifice of the herd, let him offer a male without blemish: he shall offer it of his own voluntary will at the door of the tabernacle of the congregation before the LORD. 4And he shall put his hand upon the head of the burnt offering;

and it shall be accepted for him to make atonement for him.

i.e. atonement for sin in general, enabling an unholy people to approach a holy God.

The peace offering was a separate thank offering or fellowship offering.

The sin offering was also a separate offering.

If your theory was true there would be no need for the burnt offering to be continued but it was.

That debunks your Islamic scheme to make the burnt offering a thank offering before the time of Moses.

2 Speak unto the children of Israel, saying, If a soul shall sin through ignorance against any of the commandments of the Lord concerning things which ought not to be done, and shall do against any of them:

3 If the priest that is anointed do sin according to the sin of the people; then let him bring for his sin, which he hath sinned, a young bullock without blemish unto the Lord for a sin offering. […]

14 When the sin, which they have sinned against it, is known, then the congregation shall offer a young bullock for the sin, and bring him before the tabernacle of the congregation.

This offering is clearly very different from a burnt offering. It is specifically associated with sinful behavior. For the burnt offering, on the other hand, there is no mention of sinful behavior.

Thus, the Jews interpreted it as Rashi explains:

“…we determine that it is accepted only for [failure to perform] a positive commandment [for which the punishment is not expressly stated in the Torah, or [violation of] a negative commandment that is attached to a positive commandment.”

That debunks your Christian (pagan) scheme to make the burnt offering akin to a sin offering.

“Why weren’t ALL the Egyptians killed by the angel of death if they did not do any of the things the Israelites did? When the angel of death came, why were the firstborns the only ones killed? Answer the question. You’re embarrassing yourself.”

LOL, Ignoramus doesn’t see how illogical he is. If the first born of the Egyptians were the one to be killed, then the same would apply to the Israelites, if they did not mark their homes with the lamb’s blood.

“2 For I will pass through the land of Egypt this night, and will smite all the firstborn in the land of Egypt, both man and beast; and against all the gods of Egypt I will execute judgment: I am the Lord.

13 And the blood shall be to you for a token upon the houses where ye are: and when I see the blood, I will pass over you, and the plague shall not be upon you to destroy you, when I smite the land of Egypt.”

See? It specifically states that the particular plague that would “smite the land of Egypt” would “passover” the Israelites. What was the plague? The death of the firstborn.

Your pagan claims are refuted.

What silliness. Invariably the last resort of a Christian (pagan) apologist. 😉

Hmmm, let’s see who is right…credible scholars or our little friend Ignoramus:

Noah was “blameless” while the world was sinful. God decided to destroy the world but told Noah to build an ark for himself, his family and two of every animal. The flood came and wiped out everyone and everything that was not the ark. Once the flood ended, Noah disembarked and made a burnt offering. Where was the sin?

So in fact, the burnt offering is defined by Noah. He was the first to make one. The Jewish Study Bible must be right!

even if these three men–Noah, Daniel and Job–were in it, they could save only themselves by their righteousness, declares the Sovereign LORD.

Hmmm…ONLY themselves

Quote

However, the word tzedakah only means justice or justice-love in every instance in Tanakh. It never means innocence, nor vindication, nor justification, nor “being right with G-d” as Paul of Tarsus and the NT teach us. This one NT teaching has pulled the wool over the eyes of people who don’t know Hebrew and has also killed the heart of the Torah, namely Hashem’s love of true righteousness which is the DOING OF TZEDAKAH.)

End quote

Let’s have a look at the arabic

now when the fristians translated the verse from Ezekiel they used the word “bir”

I wonder why they didn’t just say besidqeehim?

so here is definition of “bir”

obedience, COMPLIANCE, DUTIFULNESS

CONNECTION WITH ARABIC SIDQ

HONESTY, SINCERITY.

Now bible clear says Noah saved himself beeSidq

Noah= siddeeq

Which is what fristians don’t want to hear. This is clearly deadly damage to their religion

Lol, not exactly. Some of us have other responsibilities, like having a job and a life. I’m sure you’re pretty busy worshiping your bloodthirsty and genocidal god. Did you ever figure out that riddle about your KJV? 😉

5 When the days of feasting had completed their cycle, Job would send and consecrate them, rising up early in the morning and offering burnt offerings according to the number of them all; for Job said, “Perhaps my sons have sinned and cursed God in their hearts.” Thus Job did continually.
Job 1:5

No one has refuted Job 1:5, demonstrating that burnt offerings also included forgiveness of sins.

Look, if job got forgiveness for future sins based on “maybe” and god forgave even though job was UNSURE, why did the Jews then need to offer sin sacrifices when “unsure sin sacrifices” could do the job? You make your god look like a retard. unless there is no idea of forgiveness in job 1:4-5 ?

The burnt offering here seems to be based on a guess for something unknown in the future. So what offering did job bring for KNOWN offense? Job is unsure in job 1:5 and Jews who are unsure don’t bring sin sacrifice, right?

LOL, you guys are a riot. You get stuck on one particular passage and ignore everything else. Job made a burnt offering on behalf of his sons only in case they had blasphemed God in their thoughts. There is no indication that they actually did that.

Burnt offerings could be made for various reasons, including thanksgiving, as in Noah’s case and seeking God’s help in battle, as in Samuel’s case (1 Samuel 7).

“you have no text to give any evidence for any alternative meaning but Job tells us why he is offering the burnt offering, namely for the possible sins of his children. This is the only place where the purpose of the offering is explained, as far as I know, and it contradicts your explanation which has no biblical text to support it.”

Abraham did a burnt offering after god PROVIDED him with an ANIMAL. if Abraham begged god to save his son, he would need MORE than a burnt offering. If abrahams had thoughts of reluctance like jesus, he may have been reluctant to go through the act.I said Abraham thanked god and I also linked to Sophies article ,she said:

How do we know that the עֹלָ֖ה / olah was primarily to thank G-d, or for donations and for vows?

And Hashem said to Moses, saying, Speak to Aharon (Moses’ brother and the first Jewish priest) and to his sons and to all Bnai Yisrael (the Jews, the children of Israel) and say to them: Any man whatsoever from the house of Yisrael, or from the converts among Yisrael, who offers up his sacrifice for any of their vows (or for any of their donations that they may offer up to Hashem as an עֹלָ֖ה / olah offering) to be favorable for you, [it shall be] an unblemished male – from cattle, from sheep, or from goats. Any [animal] that has a blemish, you shall not offer up, for it will not be favorable for you. And if a man offers up a Shelamim (peace) offering to Hashem for declaring a vow or as a donation from cattle or from the flock to be accepted, it shall be unblemished. It shall not have any blemish in it.” (VaYikra / Leviticus 22:17-21)

Any mention of sin?

Nope.

End quote

To my surprise what I GUESSed ABOUT ABRAHAMS OFFERING had Biblical support and I didn’t even know it.

”
You only have your biased agenda arguing from silence to force the offering to have a different connotation than sin.
”

A pagan like you knows not the difference between
Maybe/perhaps/
And CURSING GOD IS SPECIFICALLY mentioned.why THIS SPECIFIC sin and why would an olah cover such a grave sin? why is a burning done on something one is not even SURE about?

“Of course thoughts can be sinful. How does the sinful act begin if not with the thought? There are plenty of scriptures to show this. God condemns our thoughts.”

yes the thought which caused jeesus to tell his god to save him from dying brutal death and his reluctance must have been condemned by god.

And don’t try to change the topic. We want to know how the burnt offering in the story about Abraham offering his son as a burnt offering implies Abraham did the burning because of his sins.

“Gen 6 v 5 And GOD saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every imagination of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually.”

god also said to USE the heart to give him BURNT offerings , deeds and love. how did maybe /perhaps BECOME ACTUAL DEEDS??? WHAT gen 6:5 got to do with jobs perhaps???

“Noah found GRACE: Gen 6 v 8 But Noah found grace in the eyes of the LORD. If he was sinless he would have no need of grace.”

from burnt offering to grace, wtf is this?

“Abraham and Job both sinned as we are explicitly told in the bible. Abraham believed God and it was counted to him for righteousness. His works did not save him, his faith did.”

From burnt offering to Abraham’s sin to Noah’s sin wtf is this?

Now help us here. When Abraham burnt the animal can you show

1. He doubted god
2.doubted gods plan

ALL IN THOUGHT

???

if Abraham was counted righteous by faith, then OLAH offering could not be for any of his “maybe”
“Perhaps” thoughts

“Gen 15 v 6And he believed in the LORD; and he counted it to him for righteuote:

Avraham didn’t think he would ever have biological children, but when Hashem told him that he would, Avraham believed Him – or as it is written in Tanakh – “He believed IN Hashem”. But in this case it means that Avraham believed Hashem. It doesn’t mean that finally Avraham became a believer in Hashem. Avraham was a believer in Hashem a long time before this. So Hashem’s considering this faith an act of tzedakah wasn’t because all of a sudden Avraham became a “believer”, it was merely because Avraham believed that he would have biological children just like Hashem said he would. Whatever it means, Avraham did an act of tzedakah by believing he would have a child with Sarah. It doesn’t mean that Avraham was considered a tzadik because he was a “believer”. As I’ve said many times, tzadik doesn’t mean “believer”; it includes being a believer but ONLY if it leads to a life of tzedek which is the pursuit of divine justice to all of Hashem’s creatures.

End quote

Quote:

“A tzadik by his faith will live” because he realizes that the foundation of having EMUNAH (faith) is what gives him the strength to serve God, to do His commandments and not to be a rasha (a lawless person).

The verse doesn’t say Avraham DID tzedkah because He didn’t DO AN ACTION. Hashem merely counted his faith in a specific prophecy AS IF he had done tzedakah. The verse says nothing about being a tzadik, which is a different word than tzedakah (as everybody knows by now because I have defined it at least 20 times already).
End quote

“Look, if job got forgiveness for future sins based on “maybe” and god forgave even though job was UNSURE, why did the Jews then need to offer sin sacrifices when “unsure sin sacrifices” could do the job? You make your god look like a retard.”

Past sins. The only one who looks like a retard is you.

Job 1 v 5 And it was so, when the days of their feasting were gone about,

that Job sent and sanctified them, and rose up early in the morning, and offered burnt offerings according to the number of them all: for Job said, It may be that my sons have sinned, and cursed God in their hearts. Thus did Job continually.

Job acted as a priest for his family. The “unsure” sin sacrifice would be the Day of Atonement where all sins that did not come to light would be atoned. Otherwise each individual had to react with a sin offering once his sin came to light.

“And Hashem said to Moses, saying, Speak to Aharon (Moses’ brother and the first Jewish priest) and to his sons and to all Bnai Yisrael (the Jews, the children of Israel) and say to them: Any man whatsoever from the house of Yisrael, or from the converts among Yisrael, who offers up his sacrifice for any of their vows (or for any of their donations that they may offer up to Hashem as an עֹלָ֖ה / olah offering) to be favorable for you, [it shall be] an unblemished male – from cattle, from sheep, or from goats. Any [animal] that has a blemish, you shall not offer up, for it will not be favorable for you. And if a man offers up a Shelamim (peace) offering to Hashem for declaring a vow or as a donation from cattle or from the flock to be accepted, it shall be unblemished. It shall not have any blemish in it.” (VaYikra / Leviticus 22:17-21)
Any mention of sin?
Nope.
End quote”

The passage is talking about freewill burnt and peace offerings. The sin offering is not a freewill offering.

so job OFFERS burnt offerings MAYBE because his sons have sinned and cursed god in the past.
job is talking about things in the PAST. he BURNS meat for things in the past on THINGS he is NOT SURE about.

now what sacrifice is brought for KNOWN sins in the past ?

quote :
The “unsure” sin sacrifice would be the Day of Atonement where all sins that did not come to light would be atoned.
end quote

retard, do JEWS bring SACRIFICEs for sins BASED on “perhaps” IN THE past on the day of atonement?
which verse in torah says that if you are UNSURE you have sinned you NEED to bring a sacrifice?

Lol, “if the sin had been committed. ”
so lets see. The jebus “sacrifice” is prophesied because oldest form of olah offering was to burn it for SINS which one was UNSURE OF in the past LOL
specifically CURSING god, but the animal was burnt anyway if it was revealed the “sin” wasn’t really a sin .

In the text, job is doing things not because of god COMMANDING him to , but job wanting to do it because job FEELS “perhaps” lol

“You still have no example or evidence of the burnt offering being expressly conceived as a thank offering anywhere in the OT. As such it is an alien concept being forced by on the OT by your religion.”

Hmmm, let’s see if we can meet Ignoramus’ challenge. He has already been refuted since Noah’s offering was clearly an offering of thanksgiving. But, let’s see if there are other examples. Hmmm…let’s see…hmmm…oh what about:

“2 And Hezekiah appointed the courses of the priests and the Levites after their courses, every man according to his service, the priests and Levites for burnt offerings and for peace offerings, to minister, and to give thanks, and to praise in the gates of the tents of the Lord.”

“and where is there indication retard that abraham DID “sin offering ” ?
gods provision is offered to god because god provided it . this is clearly a “thank you” to god.”

A thank offering is something that you freely give from your own abundance. A thank offering has no element of substitution.The whole scenario is much more complicated than a simple thank offering. It is prophetical in nature showing the great substitutionary atonement that will take place in the future.

“A thank offering is something that you freely give from your own abundance”

Yes, Noah gave freely from what he took on the boat.

Noah had abundance of animals on board.

It was clearly a thank you offering which yhwh inhaled.

“. A thank offering has no element of substitution.”

Instead of the human giving thanks with his flesh, he gives an animal as an offering instead. Abraham’s son was saved and Abraham gave thanks via a olah offering. Gods provision was not a human pagan sacrifice in which the human begs his god to be saved. THERE is no christological human lamb in gods provision.

“e whole scenario is much more complicated than a simple thank offering. It is prophetical in nature showing the great substitutionary atonement that will take place in the future.”

The bit where your pagan god begs to be saved?
did jesus REPENT for that thought and sacrificed himself for his own sinful thought in wanting to be saved from gods wrath? Not much of a “sacrificial lamb” right?
No wonder john cleared up the reluctant mangod mess.

And we must remember Abraham had no idea of sacrificed pagan begging god. He trusted in God, not the sacrificed animal. Abraham wasn’t a christian animal worshipper. Abraham trusted that God will provide, not the thing provided.

“Job acted as a priest for his family. The “unsure” sin sacrifice would be the Day of Atonement where all sins that did not come to light would be atoned. Otherwise each individual had to react with a sin offering once his sin came to light.”

The angel of the Lord called to Abraham a second time from heaven, 16 and said, “By myself I have sworn, says the Lord: Because you have done this, and have not withheld your son, your only son, 17 I will indeed bless you, and I will make your offspring as numerous as the stars of heaven and as the sand that is on the seashore. And your offspring shall possess the gate of their enemies, 18 and by your offspring shall all the nations of the earth gain blessing for themselves, because you have obeyed my voice.” 19 So Abraham returned to his young men, and they arose and went together to Beer-sheba; and Abraham lived at Beer-sheba.

it is quite clear that Abraham deed of bringing his son and giving it to yhwh was loyalty test. The animal was clearly UNIMPORTANT in the genesis story. Notice how it gets “lost in fog”?

That Abraham did not with hold his son in heart, action and mind , GOd will reward by blessing . the elevatory offer was not brought to attention, but abrahams deed/works/acts/ were brought to attention

Olah is very ancient form of offering and even the pagans did it . missionaries some how don’t know that an animal is an animal and human is a human
When pagans were BURNING their children, the smoking body rose to the gods .why perform these offerings? why willingly KILL THAT which is close to your heart? it is quite clear Abraham’s olah was symbolic for:

and have not withheld your son, your only son,

This is called to ATTENTION, not a pagan god who begs his.god to save himself from death. It is clear Abraham had greater faith in gods plan then jebus.

It quite clearly has nothing to do with sin offering. The context is clearly impressed with the deeds and faith of Abraham. Abraham even receives blessing .notice how Noah’s olah sends a pleasing aroma , but in the story of Abraham it is the man Abraham who is pleasing to god.

ken and erasmus,the Torah says that one who worships other than Jewish god has adulterated and prostituted heart to others gods. Since you prostituted your heart to male jesus krist doesn’t that make you a homosexual? Actually you, shamoun and others would be ready to worship a naked Jew leaving an empty tomb and worship it as god. Doesn’t that make you homosexual according to Torah standard?

“2 And Hezekiah appointed the courses of the priests and the Levites after their courses, every man according to his service, the priests and Levites for burnt offerings and for peace offerings, to minister, and to give thanks, and to praise in the gates of the tents of the Lord.”

1. That a burnt offering is conceived as a thank offering.
2. That your pathetic challenge has been answered.
3. That you are a heretic by your own Bible’s standards.
4. That you are an ignoramus.
5. That you are a loser who is incapable of admitting when he is wrong.

” And Naaman said, Shall there not then, I pray thee, be given to thy servant two mules’ burden of earth? For thy servant will henceforth offer neither burnt offering nor sacrifice unto other gods, but unto the Lord.”

Did “other gods” also require burnt offerings for atonement? Which gods were these?

Leviticus 9 v 7And Moses said unto Aaron, Go unto the altar, and offer thy sin offering, and thy burnt offering, and make an atonement for thyself, and for the people: and offer the offering of the people, and make an atonement for them; as the LORD commanded.”

A thank offering is never said to make atonement as a burnt offering does.

The peace or thank offering depends on the burnt offering to go before it because that is what peace offering is celebrating, namely the fact of atonement.

You are putting the cart before the horse, or simply removing the cart altogether. There is a logical order between the offerings.

“More proof for the proper context of burnt offerings:
” And Naaman said, Shall there not then, I pray thee, be given to thy servant two mules’ burden of earth? For thy servant will henceforth offer neither burnt offering nor sacrifice unto other gods, but unto the Lord.”
Did “other gods” also require burnt offerings for atonement? Which gods were these?”

“Where does it say that the “thank” offering was offered last? Where is the phrase “thank offering” used in your precious KJV?”

It just gets worse and worse for you Faiz. You are making an utter fool of yourself.

Leviticus 7 v 15 And the flesh of the sacrifice of his peace offerings for thanksgiving shall be eaten the same day that it is offered; he shall not leave any of it until the morning. 16 But if the sacrifice of his offering be a vow, or a voluntary offering, it shall be eaten the same day that he offereth his sacrifice: and on the morrow also the remainder of it shall be eaten:”

“And if he be not able to bring a lamb, then he shall bring for his trespass, which he hath committed, two turtledoves, or two young pigeons, unto the Lord; one for a sin offering, and the other for a burnt offering.”

“And if he be not able to bring a lamb, then he shall bring for his trespass, which he hath committed, two turtledoves, or two young pigeons, unto the Lord; one for a sin offering, and the other for a burnt offering.”

“If the sin offering is for sin, then what is the burnt offering for? Riddle me that, Ignoramus.”

The burnt offering is for original sin and the sin offering is for specific sins.

That was too easy.

If the burnt offering is a thank offering why does it make atonement?

Leviticus 1 v 3 If his offering be a burnt sacrifice of the herd, let him offer a male without blemish: he shall offer it of his own voluntary will at the door of the tabernacle of the congregation before the LORD. 4 And he shall put his hand upon the head of the burnt offering; and it shall be accepted for him to make atonement for him.

Making things up again? Where does it say that the sin offering is for “original sin”? You’re pathetic! Original sin is foreign to the Tanakh. Speaking of which, did you read my article? I’m looking forward to you trying your luck and “demolishing” it. 😉

I cannot believe that you still have not figured out that the burnt offering served different purposes. As I said to Ken, a burnt offering could be for giving thanks (as in Noah’s case) or for praying for victory in battle (as in Samuel’s case) or for other reasons. But it was very different from a sin offering.

So riddle me this again Ignoramus:

If the sin offering is for sin, then what is the burnt offering for?

And riddle me this also, even though you keep running away from it (I think I know why 😉 ):

here is more proof that burnt offerings were voluntary and over 12 times burnt offerings are distinguished from sin offerings.

Quote:

12 The one who presented his offering the first day was Nahshon son of Amminadab, of the tribe of Judah; 13 his offering was one silver plate weighing one hundred thirty shekels, one silver basin weighing seventy shekels, according to the shekel of the sanctuary, both of them full of choice flour mixed with oil for a grain offering; 14 one golden dish weighing ten shekels, full of incense; 15 one young bull, one ram, one male lamb a year old, for a burnt offering; 16 one male goat for a sin offering; 17 and for the sacrifice of well-being, two oxen, five rams, five male goats, and five male lambs a year old. This was the offering of Nahshon son of Amminadab.

18 On the second day Nethanel son of Zuar, the leader of Issachar, presented an offering; 19 he presented for his offering one silver plate weighing one hundred thirty shekels, one silver basin weighing seventy shekels, according to the shekel of the sanctuary, both of them full of choice flour mixed with oil for a grain offering; 20 one golden dish weighing ten shekels, full of incense; 21 one young bull, one ram, one male lamb a year old, as a burnt offering; 22 one male goat as a sin offering; 23 and for the sacrifice of well-being, two oxen, five rams, five male goats, and five male lambs a year old. This was the offering of Nethanel son of Zuar.

24 On the third day Eliab son of Helon, the leader of the Zebulunites: 25 his offering was one silver plate weighing one hundred thirty shekels, one silver basin weighing seventy shekels, according to the shekel of the sanctuary, both of them full of choice flour mixed with oil for a grain offering; 26 one golden dish weighing ten shekels, full of incense; 27 one young bull, one ram, one male lamb a year old, for a burnt offering; 28 one male goat for a sin offering; 29 and for the sacrifice of well-being, two oxen, five rams, five male goats, and five male lambs a year old. This was the offering of Eliab son of Helon.

30 On the fourth day Elizur son of Shedeur, the leader of the Reubenites: 31 his offering was one silver plate weighing one hundred thirty shekels, one silver basin weighing seventy shekels, according to the shekel of the sanctuary, both of them full of choice flour mixed with oil for a grain offering; 32 one golden dish weighing ten shekels, full of incense; 33 one young bull, one ram, one male lamb a year old, for a burnt offering; 34 one male goat for a sin offering; 35 and for the sacrifice of well-being, two oxen, five rams, five male goats, and five male lambs a year old. This was the offering of Elizur son of Shedeur.

36 On the fifth day Shelumiel son of Zurishaddai, the leader of the Simeonites: 37 his offering was one silver plate weighing one hundred thirty shekels, one silver basin weighing seventy shekels, according to the shekel of the sanctuary, both of them full of choice flour mixed with oil for a grain offering; 38 one golden dish weighing ten shekels, full of incense; 39 one young bull, one ram, one male lamb a year old, for a burnt offering; 40 one male goat for a sin offering; 41 and for the sacrifice of well-being, two oxen, five rams, five male goats, and five male lambs a year old. This was the offering of Shelumiel son of Zurishaddai.

42 On the sixth day Eliasaph son of Deuel, the leader of the Gadites: 43 his offering was one silver plate weighing one hundred thirty shekels, one silver basin weighing seventy shekels, according to the shekel of the sanctuary, both of them full of choice flour mixed with oil for a grain offering; 44 one golden dish weighing ten shekels, full of incense; 45 one young bull, one ram, one male lamb a year old, for a burnt offering; 46 one male goat for a sin offering; 47 and for the sacrifice of well-being, two oxen, five rams, five male goats, and five male lambs a year old. This was the offering of Eliasaph son of Deuel.

48 On the seventh day Elishama son of Ammihud, the leader of the Ephraimites: 49 his offering was one silver plate weighing one hundred thirty shekels, one silver basin weighing seventy shekels, according to the shekel of the sanctuary, both of them full of choice flour mixed with oil for a grain offering; 50 one golden dish weighing ten shekels, full of incense; 51 one young bull, one ram, one male lamb a year old, for a burnt offering; 52 one male goat for a sin offering; 53 and for the sacrifice of well-being, two oxen, five rams, five male goats, and five male lambs a year old. This was the offering of Elishama son of Ammihud.

54 On the eighth day Gamaliel son of Pedahzur, the leader of the Manassites: 55 his offering was one silver plate weighing one hundred thirty shekels, one silver basin weighing seventy shekels, according to the shekel of the sanctuary, both of them full of choice flour mixed with oil for a grain offering; 56 one golden dish weighing ten shekels, full of incense; 57 one young bull, one ram, one male lamb a year old, for a burnt offering; 58 one male goat for a sin offering; 59 and for the sacrifice of well-being, two oxen, five rams, five male goats, and five male lambs a year old. This was the offering of Gamaliel son of Pedahzur.

60 On the ninth day Abidan son of Gideoni, the leader of the Benjaminites: 61 his offering was one silver plate weighing one hundred thirty shekels, one silver basin weighing seventy shekels, according to the shekel of the sanctuary, both of them full of choice flour mixed with oil for a grain offering; 62 one golden dish weighing ten shekels, full of incense; 63 one young bull, one ram, one male lamb a year old, for a burnt offering; 64 one male goat for a sin offering; 65 and for the sacrifice of well-being, two oxen, five rams, five male goats, and five male lambs a year old. This was the offering of Abidan son of Gideoni.

66 On the tenth day Ahiezer son of Ammishaddai, the leader of the Danites: 67 his offering was one silver plate weighing one hundred thirty shekels, one silver basin weighing seventy shekels, according to the shekel of the sanctuary, both of them full of choice flour mixed with oil for a grain offering; 68 one golden dish weighing ten shekels, full of incense; 69 one young bull, one ram, one male lamb a year old, for a burnt offering; 70 one male goat for a sin offering; 71 and for the sacrifice of well-being, two oxen, five rams, five male goats, and five male lambs a year old. This was the offering of Ahiezer son of Ammishaddai.

72 On the eleventh day Pagiel son of Ochran, the leader of the Asherites: 73 his offering was one silver plate weighing one hundred thirty shekels, one silver basin weighing seventy shekels, according to the shekel of the sanctuary, both of them full of choice flour mixed with oil for a grain offering; 74 one golden dish weighing ten shekels, full of incense; 75 one young bull, one ram, one male lamb a year old, for a burnt offering; 76 one male goat for a sin offering; 77 and for the sacrifice of well-being, two oxen, five rams, five male goats, and five male lambs a year old. This was the offering of Pagiel son of Ochran.

78 On the twelfth day Ahira son of Enan, the leader of the Naphtalites: 79 his offering was one silver plate weighing one hundred thirty shekels, one silver basin weighing seventy shekels, according to the shekel of the sanctuary, both of them full of choice flour mixed with oil for a grain offering; 80 one golden dish weighing ten shekels, full of incense; 81 one young bull, one ram, one male lamb a year old, for a burnt offering; 82 one male goat for a sin offering; 83 and for the sacrifice of well-being, two oxen, five rams, five male goats, and five male lambs a year old. This was the offering of Ahira son of Enan.

84 This was the dedication offering for the altar, at the time when it was anointed, from the leaders of Israel: twelve silver plates, twelve silver basins, twelve golden dishes, 85 each silver plate weighing one hundred thirty shekels and each basin seventy, all the silver of the vessels two thousand four hundred shekels according to the shekel of the sanctuary, 86 the twelve golden dishes, full of incense, weighing ten shekels apiece according to the shekel of the sanctuary, all the gold of the dishes being one hundred twenty shekels; 87 all the livestock for the burnt offering twelve bulls, twelve rams, twelve male lambs a year old, with their grain offering; and twelve male goats for a sin offering; 88 and all the livestock for the sacrifice of well-being twenty-four bulls, the rams sixty, the male goats sixty, the male lambs a year old sixty. This was the dedication offering for the altar, after it was a

here is more proof that burnt offerings were voluntary and over 12 times burnt offerings are distinguished from sin offerings.

Quote:

12 The one who presented his offering the first day was Nahshon son of Amminadab, of the tribe of Judah; 13 his offering was one silver plate weighing one hundred thirty shekels, one silver basin weighing seventy shekels, according to the shekel of the sanctuary, both of them full of choice flour mixed with oil for a grain offering; 14 one golden dish weighing ten shekels, full of incense; 15 one young bull, one ram, one male lamb a year old, for a burnt offering; 16 one male goat for a sin offering; 17 and for the sacrifice of well-being, two oxen, five rams, five male goats, and five male lambs a year old. This was the offering of Nahshon son of Amminadab.

18 On the second day Nethanel son of Zuar, the leader of Issachar, presented an offering; 19 he presented for his offering one silver plate weighing one hundred thirty shekels, one silver basin weighing seventy shekels, according to the shekel of the sanctuary, both of them full of choice flour mixed with oil for a grain offering; 20 one golden dish weighing ten shekels, full of incense; 21 one young bull, one ram, one male lamb a year old, as a burnt offering; 22 one male goat as a sin offering; 23 and for the sacrifice of well-being, two oxen, five rams, five male goats, and five male lambs a year old. This was the offering of Nethanel son of Zuar.

24 On the third day Eliab son of Helon, the leader of the Zebulunites: 25 his offering was one silver plate weighing one hundred thirty shekels, one silver basin weighing seventy shekels, according to the shekel of the sanctuary, both of them full of choice flour mixed with oil for a grain offering; 26 one golden dish weighing ten shekels, full of incense; 27 one young bull, one ram, one male lamb a year old, for a burnt offering; 28 one male goat for a sin offering; 29 and for the sacrifice of well-being, two oxen, five rams, five male goats, and five male lambs a year old. This was the offering of Eliab son of Helon.

30 On the fourth day Elizur son of Shedeur, the leader of the Reubenites: 31 his offering was one silver plate weighing one hundred thirty shekels, one silver basin weighing seventy shekels, according to the shekel of the sanctuary, both of them full of choice flour mixed with oil for a grain offering; 32 one golden dish weighing ten shekels, full of incense; 33 one young bull, one ram, one male lamb a year old, for a burnt offering; 34 one male goat for a sin offering; 35 and for the sacrifice of well-being, two oxen, five rams, five male goats, and five male lambs a year old. This was the offering of Elizur son of Shedeur.

36 On the fifth day Shelumiel son of Zurishaddai, the leader of the Simeonites: 37 his offering was one silver plate weighing one hundred thirty shekels, one silver basin weighing seventy shekels, according to the shekel of the sanctuary, both of them full of choice flour mixed with oil for a grain offering; 38 one golden dish weighing ten shekels, full of incense; 39 one young bull, one ram, one male lamb a year old, for a burnt offering; 40 one male goat for a sin offering; 41 and for the sacrifice of well-being, two oxen, five rams, five male goats, and five male lambs a year old. This was the offering of Shelumiel son of Zurishaddai.

42 On the sixth day Eliasaph son of Deuel, the leader of the Gadites: 43 his offering was one silver plate weighing one hundred thirty shekels, one silver basin weighing seventy shekels, according to the shekel of the sanctuary, both of them full of choice flour mixed with oil for a grain offering; 44 one golden dish weighing ten shekels, full of incense; 45 one young bull, one ram, one male lamb a year old, for a burnt offering; 46 one male goat for a sin offering; 47 and for the sacrifice of well-being, two oxen, five rams, five male goats, and five male lambs a year old. This was the offering of Eliasaph son of Deuel.

48 On the seventh day Elishama son of Ammihud, the leader of the Ephraimites: 49 his offering was one silver plate weighing one hundred thirty shekels, one silver basin weighing seventy shekels, according to the shekel of the sanctuary, both of them full of choice flour mixed with oil for a grain offering; 50 one golden dish weighing ten shekels, full of incense; 51 one young bull, one ram, one male lamb a year old, for a burnt offering; 52 one male goat for a sin offering; 53 and for the sacrifice of well-being, two oxen, five rams, five male goats, and five male lambs a year old. This was the offering of Elishama son of Ammihud.

54 On the eighth day Gamaliel son of Pedahzur, the leader of the Manassites: 55 his offering was one silver plate weighing one hundred thirty shekels, one silver basin weighing seventy shekels, according to the shekel of the sanctuary, both of them full of choice flour mixed with oil for a grain offering; 56 one golden dish weighing ten shekels, full of incense; 57 one young bull, one ram, one male lamb a year old, for a burnt offering; 58 one male goat for a sin offering; 59 and for the sacrifice of well-being, two oxen, five rams, five male goats, and five male lambs a year old. This was the offering of Gamaliel son of Pedahzur.

60 On the ninth day Abidan son of Gideoni, the leader of the Benjaminites: 61 his offering was one silver plate weighing one hundred thirty shekels, one silver basin weighing seventy shekels, according to the shekel of the sanctuary, both of them full of choice flour mixed with oil for a grain offering; 62 one golden dish weighing ten shekels, full of incense; 63 one young bull, one ram, one male lamb a year old, for a burnt offering; 64 one male goat for a sin offering; 65 and for the sacrifice of well-being, two oxen, five rams, five male goats, and five male lambs a year old. This was the offering of Abidan son of Gideoni.

66 On the tenth day Ahiezer son of Ammishaddai, the leader of the Danites: 67 his offering was one silver plate weighing one hundred thirty shekels, one silver basin weighing seventy shekels, according to the shekel of the sanctuary, both of them full of choice flour mixed with oil for a grain offering; 68 one golden dish weighing ten shekels, full of incense; 69 one young bull, one ram, one male lamb a year old, for a burnt offering; 70 one male goat for a sin offering; 71 and for the sacrifice of well-being, two oxen, five rams, five male goats, and five male lambs a year old. This was the offering of Ahiezer son of Ammishaddai.

72 On the eleventh day Pagiel son of Ochran, the leader of the Asherites: 73 his offering was one silver plate weighing one hundred thirty shekels, one silver basin weighing seventy shekels, according to the shekel of the sanctuary, both of them full of choice flour mixed with oil for a grain offering; 74 one golden dish weighing ten shekels, full of incense; 75 one young bull, one ram, one male lamb a year old, for a burnt offering; 76 one male goat for a sin offering; 77 and for the sacrifice of well-being, two oxen, five rams, five male goats, and five male lambs a year old. This was the offering of Pagiel son of Ochran.

78 On the twelfth day Ahira son of Enan, the leader of the Naphtalites: 79 his offering was one silver plate weighing one hundred thirty shekels, one silver basin weighing seventy shekels, according to the shekel of the sanctuary, both of them full of choice flour mixed with oil for a grain offering; 80 one golden dish weighing ten shekels, full of incense; 81 one young bull, one ram, one male lamb a year old, for a burnt offering; 82 one male goat for a sin offering; 83 and for the sacrifice of well-being, two oxen, five rams, five male goats, and five male lambs a year old. This was the offering of Ahira son of Enan.

84 This was the dedication offering for the altar, at the time when it was anointed, from the leaders of Israel: twelve silver plates, twelve silver basins, twelve golden dishes, 85 each silver plate weighing one hundred thirty shekels and each basin seventy, all the silver of the vessels two thousand four hundred shekels according to the shekel of the sanctuary, 86 the twelve golden dishes, full of incense, weighing ten shekels apiece according to the shekel of the sanctuary, all the gold of the dishes being one hundred twenty shekels; 87 all the livestock for the burnt offering twelve bulls, twelve rams, twelve male lambs a year old, with their grain offering; and twelve male goats for a sin offering; 88 and all the livestock for the sacrifice of well-being twenty-four bulls, the rams sixty, the male goats sixty, the male lambs a year old sixty. This was the dedication offering for the altar, after it was a

here is more proof that burnt offerings were voluntary and over 12 times burnt offerings are distinguished from sin offerings.

,…
Quote:

12 The one who presented his offering the first day was Nahshon son of Amminadab, of the tribe of Judah; 13 his offering was one silver plate weighing one hundred thirty shekels, one silver basin weighing seventy shekels, according to the shekel of the sanctuary, both of them full of choice flour mixed with oil for a grain offering; 14 one golden dish weighing ten shekels, full of incense; 15 one young bull, one ram, one male lamb a year old, for a burnt offering; 16 one male goat for a sin offering; 17 and for the sacrifice of well-being, two oxen, five rams, five male goats, and five male lambs a year old. This was the offering of Nahshon son of Amminadab.

18 On the second day Nethanel son of Zuar, the leader of Issachar, presented an offering; 19 he presented for his offering one silver plate weighing one hundred thirty shekels, one silver basin weighing seventy shekels, according to the shekel of the sanctuary, both of them full of choice flour mixed with oil for a grain offering; 20 one golden dish weighing ten shekels, full of incense; 21 one young bull, one ram, one male lamb a year old, as a burnt offering; 22 one male goat as a sin offering; 23 and for the sacrifice of well-being, two oxen, five rams, five male goats, and five male lambs a year old. This was the offering of Nethanel son of Zuar.

24 On the third day Eliab son of Helon, the leader of the Zebulunites: 25 his offering was one silver plate weighing one hundred thirty shekels, one silver basin weighing seventy shekels, according to the shekel of the sanctuary, both of them full of choice flour mixed with oil for a grain offering; 26 one golden dish weighing ten shekels, full of incense; 27 one young bull, one ram, one male lamb a year old, for a burnt offering; 28 one male goat for a sin offering; 29 and for the sacrifice of well-being, two oxen, five rams, five male goats, and five male lambs a year old. This was the offering of Eliab son of Helon.

30 On the fourth day Elizur son of Shedeur, the leader of the Reubenites: 31 his offering was one silver plate weighing one hundred thirty shekels, one silver basin weighing seventy shekels, according to the shekel of the sanctuary, both of them full of choice flour mixed with oil for a grain offering; 32 one golden dish weighing ten shekels, full of incense; 33 one young bull, one ram, one male lamb a year old, for a burnt offering; 34 one male goat for a sin offering; 35 and for the sacrifice of well-being, two oxen, five rams, five male goats, and five male lambs a year old. This was the offering of Elizur son of Shedeur.

36 On the fifth day Shelumiel son of Zurishaddai, the leader of the Simeonites: 37 his offering was one silver plate weighing one hundred thirty shekels, one silver basin weighing seventy shekels, according to the shekel of the sanctuary, both of them full of choice flour mixed with oil for a grain offering; 38 one golden dish weighing ten shekels, full of incense; 39 one young bull, one ram, one male lamb a year old, for a burnt offering; 40 one male goat for a sin offering; 41 and for the sacrifice of well-being, two oxen, five rams, five male goats, and five male lambs a year old. This was the offering of Shelumiel son of Zurishaddai.

42 On the sixth day Eliasaph son of Deuel, the leader of the Gadites: 43 his offering was one silver plate weighing one hundred thirty shekels, one silver basin weighing seventy shekels, according to the shekel of the sanctuary, both of them full of choice flour mixed with oil for a grain offering; 44 one golden dish weighing ten shekels, full of incense; 45 one young bull, one ram, one male lamb a year old, for a burnt offering; 46 one male goat for a sin offering; 47 and for the sacrifice of well-being, two oxen, five rams, five male goats, and five male lambs a year old. This was the offering of Eliasaph son of Deuel.

48 On the seventh day Elishama son of Ammihud, the leader of the Ephraimites: 49 his offering was one silver plate weighing one hundred thirty shekels, one silver basin weighing seventy shekels, according to the shekel of the sanctuary, both of them full of choice flour mixed with oil for a grain offering; 50 one golden dish weighing ten shekels, full of incense; 51 one young bull, one ram, one male lamb a year old, for a burnt offering; 52 one male goat for a sin offering; 53 and for the sacrifice of well-being, two oxen, five rams, five male goats, and five male lambs a year old. This was the offering of Elishama son of Ammihud.

54 On the eighth day Gamaliel son of Pedahzur, the leader of the Manassites: 55 his offering was one silver plate weighing one hundred thirty shekels, one silver basin weighing seventy shekels, according to the shekel of the sanctuary, both of them full of choice flour mixed with oil for a grain offering; 56 one golden dish weighing ten shekels, full of incense; 57 one young bull, one ram, one male lamb a year old, for a burnt offering; 58 one male goat for a sin offering; 59 and for the sacrifice of well-being, two oxen, five rams, five male goats, and five male lambs a year old. This was the offering of Gamaliel son of Pedahzur.

60 On the ninth day Abidan son of Gideoni, the leader of the Benjaminites: 61 his offering was one silver plate weighing one hundred thirty shekels, one silver basin weighing seventy shekels, according to the shekel of the sanctuary, both of them full of choice flour mixed with oil for a grain offering; 62 one golden dish weighing ten shekels, full of incense; 63 one young bull, one ram, one male lamb a year old, for a burnt offering; 64 one male goat for a sin offering; 65 and for the sacrifice of well-being, two oxen, five rams, five male goats, and five male lambs a year old. This was the offering of Abidan son of Gideoni.

66 On the tenth day Ahiezer son of Ammishaddai, the leader of the Danites: 67 his offering was one silver plate weighing one hundred thirty shekels, one silver basin weighing seventy shekels, according to the shekel of the sanctuary, both of them full of choice flour mixed with oil for a grain offering; 68 one golden dish weighing ten shekels, full of incense; 69 one young bull, one ram, one male lamb a year old, for a burnt offering; 70 one male goat for a sin offering; 71 and for the sacrifice of well-being, two oxen, five rams, five male goats, and five male lambs a year old. This was the offering of Ahiezer son of Ammishaddai.

72 On the eleventh day Pagiel son of Ochran, the leader of the Asherites: 73 his offering was one silver plate weighing one hundred thirty shekels, one silver basin weighing seventy shekels, according to the shekel of the sanctuary, both of them full of choice flour mixed with oil for a grain offering; 74 one golden dish weighing ten shekels, full of incense; 75 one young bull, one ram, one male lamb a year old, for a burnt offering; 76 one male goat for a sin offering; 77 and for the sacrifice of well-being, two oxen, five rams, five male goats, and five male lambs a year old. This was the offering of Pagiel son of Ochran.

78 On the twelfth day Ahira son of Enan, the leader of the Naphtalites: 79 his offering was one silver plate weighing one hundred thirty shekels, one silver basin weighing seventy shekels, according to the shekel of the sanctuary, both of them full of choice flour mixed with oil for a grain offering; 80 one golden dish weighing ten shekels, full of incense; 81 one young bull, one ram, one male lamb a year old, for a burnt offering; 82 one male goat for a sin offering; 83 and for the sacrifice of well-being, two oxen, five rams, five male goats, and five male lambs a year old. This was the offering of Ahira son of Enan.

84 This was the dedication offering for the altar, at the time when it was anointed, from the leaders of Israel: twelve silver plates, twelve silver basins, twelve golden dishes, 85 each silver plate weighing one hundred thirty shekels and each basin seventy, all the silver of the vessels two thousand four hundred shekels according to the shekel of the sanctuary, 86 the twelve golden dishes, full of incense, weighing ten shekels apiece according to the shekel of the sanctuary, all the gold of the dishes being one hundred twenty shekels; 87 all the livestock for the burnt offering twelve bulls, twelve rams, twelve male lambs a year old, with their grain offering; and twelve male goats for a sin offering; 88 and all the livestock for the sacrifice of well-being twenty-four bulls, the rams sixty, the male goats sixty, the male lambs a year old sixty. This was the dedication offering for the altar, after it was a

Leviticus 1 v f his offering be a burnt sacrifice of the herd, let him offer a male without blemish: he shall offer it of his own voluntary will at the door of the tabernacle of the congregation before the LORD. 4And he shall put his hand upon the head of the burnt offering;

and it shall be accepted for him to make atonement forwhDoe

uestions for bro faiz IF he wants to answer:

Leviticus 1 v f his offering be a burnt sacrifice of the herd, let him offer a male without blemish: he shall offer it of his own voluntary will at the door of the tabernacle of the congregation before the LORD. 4And he shall put his hand upon the head of the burnt offering;

and it shall be accepted for him to make atonement for him.

….

is the smoke making atonement or the act of placing the hand over the head after it is burned?

These might be dumb questions but I might as well ask.

Is the “it shall make” referring to the ACT or the smoke which rises?

God is holy, how can sins rise to god? They are carried away by live goat into the wilderness.

After the animal is burnt one is to lay hand on its head, which would imply a cool head otherwise hand will be burnt

But the diety needs to take part in smoking the animal that’s why it needs to continue to be burnt. The smoke is that which goes high. The head does not go anywhere.

Leviticus 1 v f his offering be a burnt sacrifice of the herd, let him offer a male without blemish: he shall offer it of his own voluntary will at the door of the tabernacle of the congregation before the LORD. 4And he shall put his hand upon the head of the burnt offering;

and it shall be accepted for him to make atonement for him.

….

is the smoke making atonement or the act of placing the hand over the head after it is burned?

These might be dumb questions but I might as well ask.

Is the “it shall make” referring to the ACT or the smoke which rises?

God is holy, how can sins rise to god? They are carried away by live goat into the wilderness.

After the animal is burnt one is to lay hand on its head, which would imply a cool head otherwise hand will be burnt

But the diety needs to take part in smoking the animal that’s why it needs to continue to be burnt. The smoke is that which goes high. The head does not go anywhere.

“Numbers 7 voluntary burnt sacrifices mention along side sin sacrifices more than 12 times.
In mentioning elevatory offering more than 12 times, author did not make link with sin offers, how come?

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Elevatory offering? they didn’t have elevators in those days 🙂

Link with sin offers? What do you mean? I’m not with you.

The rulers offered a sin offering in this context without any reference to any particular sin. They were offering a sin offering because of their inherent sinfulness or original sin.

The Levites and the priests could not be consecrated without a sin offering to make atonement for their sinfulness, their original sin, e.g. the Levites, Numbers 8:

Cleansing the Levites

5And the LORD spake unto Moses, saying, 6Take the Levites from among the children of Israel, and cleanse them. 7And thus shalt thou do unto them, to cleanse them: Sprinkle water of purifying upon them, and let them shave all their flesh, and let them wash their clothes, and so make themselves clean. 8Then let them take a young bullock with his meat offering, even fine flour mingled with oil, and another young bullock shalt thou take for a sin offering.

12And the Levites shall lay their hands upon the heads of the bullocks: and thou shalt offer the one for a sin offering, and the other for a burnt offering, unto the LORD, to make an atonement for the Levites.

Obviously if there is no inherent sin in the Levites why the need to make atonement for them and cleanse them before they can serve in the tabernacle? Same applies for the priests.

The word atonement implies that man is unclean and in a state of original or inherent sin.

“The word atonement implies that man is unclean and in a state of original or inherent sin.”

and why would god want a unclean human like jesus to be a magical bloody go between when fresh animal meat was rocking his (your gods) boat?

why would he want AN easy nailing of a puny god who begged his god to be saved, over the complex animal rituals which yhwh HAD TRUST in and thought that the animals life fleeting can bring one to repentance?

5And the LORD spake unto Moses, saying, 6Take the Levites from among the children of Israel, and cleanse them. 7And thus shalt thou do unto them, to cleanse them: Sprinkle water of purifying upon them, and let them shave all their flesh, and let them wash their clothes, and so make themselves clean. 8Then let them take a young bullock with his meat offering, even fine flour mingled with oil, and another young bullock shalt thou take for a sin offering.

12And the Levites shall lay their hands upon the heads of the bullocks: and thou shalt offer the one for a sin offering, and the other for a burnt offering, unto the LORD, to make an atonement for the Levites.

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Obviously if there is no inherent sin in the Levites why the need to make atonement for them and cleanse them before they can serve in the tabernacle? Same applies for the priests.

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21 The Levites purified themselves from sin and washed their clothes; then Aaron presented them as an elevation offering before the Lord, and Aaron made atonement for them to cleanse them.

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so WATER purified from sin, not blood.
so water is a sin purifier. all the other processes must be SECONDARY.

“bviously if there is no inherent sin in the Levites why the need to make atonement for them and cleanse them before they can serve in the tabernacle?”

they made yhwh into a god who himself participate in rituals. yhwh needed PROTECTION from dead human bodies and diseased human beings. anyone coming into contact with diseased items and dead bodies became a CONTAGION lol who would transfer his infection to the people in the group and into “holy yhwh”
yhwh = a holy god and he needs to be protected from impurities. some impurities had NO instant affect. it seem like blood atonement was LIMITED and powerless.
but NONE of this means “inherent” sin within man.

quote :
The act of placing of the hand between the horns of the animal that is brought as an Olah (burnt offering) indicates that: (1) the one bringing it declares that the animal is his property and that he devotes it as his offering, and (2) with this this act the animal was designated as the representative, or substitute of the one who brought it to be sacrificed (this is based on Numbers 26:18,23, where Moses placed his hands on Joshua to indicate that he, Joshua, was to take Moses’ as the leader of the Israelites. It is the process that atones.
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“so WATER purified from sin, not blood.
so water is a sin purifier. all the other processes must be SECONDARY.”

The filth that accumulates on the body had to be washed off. As an offering to God the Levites had to be clean and be dressed in clean clothes.

After this Aaron had to make atonement for them:

21And the Levites were purified, and they washed their clothes; and Aaron offered them as an offering before the LORD; and Aaron made an atonement for them to cleanse them. 22And after that went the Levites in to do their service in the tabernacle of the congregation before Aaron, and before his sons: as the LORD had commanded Moses concerning the Levites, so did they unto them.

“it is the process that atones”

Yes, because it involves the offering up of the enactment of death and substitution of the offering in the place of the offerer by the ultimate offering in the future, which was Christ:

“(2) with this this act the animal was designated as the representative, or substitute of the one who brought it to be sacrificed

“Yes, because it involves the offering up of the enactment of death and substitution of the offering in the place of the offerer by the ultimate offering in the future, which was Christ:”

look man, the priest would have puked at the easy nailing of jesus. by just having the thought that the priests had jesus in mind, you would have made all of yhwhs place unholy . offerings had nothing to do with the future . no priest would have thought that god offers god to god. how do you enact the bit when jesus became a coward and begged god to be saved? where is that indicated in any animal sacrifice?

thanks, you just shot yourself very badly. the deeds, the process is what is important and what atones. the object which gets a jostling is unimportant. so doing a “play” pleaseth yhwh, not the animal and not its blood. thanks, jesus not needed.