Virgil Donati.....I have heard three of his albums...and I'm sure he is the greatest progressive drummer.... also he gots the best double bass beat's composing ability i've ever heard.....have you ever listened "Trencherman" of "On the Virg"??

Virgil Donati.....I have heard three of his albums...and I'm sure he is the greatest progressive drummer.... also he gots the best double bass beat's composing ability i've ever heard.....have you ever listened "Trencherman" of "On the Virg"??

i got to believe this. a guy like virgil has miles of studio tape with his drumming on. very few of us can claim to know the full length of virgil's career. judging any drummer must shurely involve at least looking at half of his/her whole recorded material and virgil's is huge and obscure. what he does these days is so far off the envelope that it doesn't sit nicely in my ear but i have to believe that he can hold down a four on the floor should the song call for it. lol...imagine him covering an AC/DCsong. (that said, i learned more about drumming from phil rudd than i ever learned from virgil)

j

A couple of years back (the last clinic I caught him at), Virgil was asked a question that kind of went like this:
"Do you play any straight stuff?" (not an exact quote)

Virgil mentioned that he was just fresh off some LA studio sessions, doing some studio for a project that included some Rolling Stones dudes.... It was a very straight rock album.

I'll try and find the credit. I've not heard it myself, but I would have to assume that Virgil can hold down a 4/4 feel just fine.

I got Virgil's play-along recently and honestly it made me think he may be the best power drummer on this planet. He played a groove in 7/16 with his hands, but he was a playing a 4 feel underneath it like, 1..4..7..3..6..2..5.., etc. on the kick drum. It really blows me away the stufff he is able to do on a set. Another example is the craziest lick I have seen in the Middle of Native metal. I LOVE THIS GUY!

brittc89 - are you an On The Virg fan? Haven't seen it mentioned much here. It's probably my favourite drumming album, and I think the production is amazing. Check out the song 'Trencherman' if you haven't already.

Virgil Donati is one of the most professional, most versatile and simply most amazing drummers of our time. And it is in our time only in which the best drummers exist, of course, because the boundaries have been pushed always further and further.
Now many could say of course that old drummers like buddy rich had better feel and so on.... well this is a matter of taste. Also that they were more entertaining and real superstars...Personally I donīt really care much for this entertaining thing and this whole flashyness, at least not in big bands.
People are saying here that the music Donati plays is often very boring and even "amateurish" which is a really bold and unfair statement I think. Ok I know that finnhiggins said especially his choice of parts is boring not the whole music and drumming and that there is no real release and tension in his playing and so on. I think statements like these are very dependent on opinion, which is ok, but by saying them the way some people said here, they seem like facts and really diminish all the greatness of this great drummer and musician.
It is really not fair to talk about Virgil that way , I have such huge respect for him, all the time he spend practicing on all things possible and dedicating his life to music and drums and then there is a huge load of negative comments about his drumming and music.

In my opinion this is a bit sad, I really enjoy his drumming, watching him....I donīt know any other drummer who plays with that passion and also that seriousness. For me drumming is also something very serious(which does not mean that it should not be fun as well). Look at his face while playing, so passionate, I think this man real embodies drumming.
Personally I enjoy his music(the things I know,at least), escpecially planet x

Now somebody also said that one can not always be friendly, even on this forum, and one has to be direct and clearly say his opinion no matter if it hurts someone....come on this forum is sometimes too friendly I think.Of course, there has to be respect but people are very indulgent here I think with many drummers and musicians who are not that good and deserve all that credit.
But why "bashing" virgil, does not make sense to me.
I didnīt want to offend anyone with this post, everyone can have his opinion of course, I just wanted something positive here to be written for such a great guy...maybe he will read this one day. My biggest respect for him

__________________
Youīd love to be so far away, itīs not a long way to go itīs gonna end in your pain

I have only viewed brief video clips of Virgil Donati playing, and from what I have seen, I'm very impressed with the guy. I know this much:I bought a 16" Sabian Saturation crash that he helped design, and it's one of the favorite cymbals in my setup. I play it alongside of my AA medium/thin crash, and it has so much defintion in it; it's hard to describe. Great for soft buildup with mallets, and for hard rock, it's second to none. I think that Donati is a very valuable and worthy input for anyone who likes more complex "rock" based music, and especially for drummers...
my 2 cents

Virg is one of the great Pioneers of the drumming world regardless of what a few think. We can talk about styles we like and he does not do enough of this or that. All that aside very FEW!! and I mean few have pushed the technical and creative boundaries of drumming as much as Virgil has. And let me tell you there are a few here and there who criticize Virg to no end but let me tell you he has PLENTY!! of drummers and fans alike who have great admiration for him and his drumming contributions. Many more who admire him then those who like to rip on him. That I do know. He sure does not have a lack of people showing up to see him perform. And Stu I am not talking about you just so you do not think I am singling you out since you replied right before I did. I am talking in general here.

By the way here is a small but cool clip of Virgil SOLOING! at Pasic. This is a solo at a clinic not Virg playing with a pop band, remember that. Just go to the bottom left hand corner of the PAS home page and you will see the clip. Enjoy.

And yes Virg did lay down tracks with Mick Jagger for the Alfie soundtrack. And Virg will also be featured on TOTO vocalist Joseph Williams new solo album. It will be in the melodic pop-rock vein more then likely. More then likely reminiscent of TOTO. The guy can play anything he wants in a convincing manner. That is why he gets hired.

I wasn't able to catch him this time because I had to work, but he plays there fairly regularly so it's just a matter of time. They only post the calendar for the Baked Potato online once a month, so for someone who lives as far away as I do it can be hard to plan ahead. I swear that place is the best kept secret ever. Also there this month: Abe Laborial Jr., Jimmy Branly, Gary Novak, Chad Wakerman, and Marco Minnemann.

Yeah, well the problem is that I live in London so ... I guess I'd have to build a visit to BP into a holiday, if I ever have that much money.

I guess I shouldn't complain. Last year I saw two performances of the Virgil Donati Band in Australia (the lineup with Steve Weingart). Those were amazing gigs. And I caught a few clinics as well.

When I saw him live, the first thing that struck me was the sheer power he plays with. I've seen loads of videos of him, but nothing can prepare you for seeing him live. His bass drum work whenever I've seen him has been so clinical and precise.

I wasn't able to catch him this time because I had to work, but he plays there fairly regularly so it's just a matter of time. They only post the calendar for the Baked Potato online once a month, so for someone who lives as far away as I do it can be hard to plan ahead. I swear that place is the best kept secret ever. Also there this month: Abe Laborial Jr., Jimmy Branly, Gary Novak, Chad Wakerman, and Marco Minnemann.

I saw him play at the Baked potato thru a friends recomendation and his chops blew me away....I wasn't really diggin the music too much but I really like his performance...
The Potato is a cool spot to check out bands...

This just to tell everyone who might be interested (!) that Virgil's site has been relaunched with a couple of cool new features!
You can now pay per lesson and many new videohighlights of performances will air shortly.

I am moderating there, so you will see me jump in here now and then to defend him.

Many of the things written in this thread amazes me. Virgin Donati? I mean how low can you go? You have no idea what you are talking about, carrying on rumours and heresay.
Like I stated earlier I have a good collection of Virgils earlier work ( I've got about 50 albums), and he's got so much up his sleeve that none of his typical critics have heard ANYTHING of.

He was a platinum selling artist with Southern Sons back in Australia and Asia. Just because it didn't happen in Europe or the US, doesn't take anything away from it.
Another thing...The constant comparison of Virg vs. Buddy...
Buddy was a phenomenon. Virgil is a phenomenon. Buddy played swing music exclusively. Virgil plays straight ahead Rock/Pop/Power Fusion primarily, but rest asured he can swing.

Guess who Philly Joe Jones recommended to replace him in Bill Evans group when he, himself left? Virgil.

I am amazed at the level of hostility people show him.
He is a personal friend of mine -has been for more than 10 years, he's quite an extraordinary human being - aside from his drumming. Extremely inspiring to be around.

If you have any interest in improving technically or otherwise, check out his relaunched site : www.virgildonati.com

Why don't you upload some of this older material that you are talking about? Just some mp3 snippets if you don't have any permission. I'm sure everybody would be happy about that.

The stuff you said that would sound like Gadd or Marotta. I am positive that Virgil is able to play in this style... I just never ever heard him do that. I saw him playing with PlanetX and you can trust me that the music absolutely sucked. I left half into the show.

Sure: insanely well played, insanlely complex and an insane Drumsolo. The problem I had was, that there was just no musical expression whatsoever. Just plain showing off of technique and soloing ability.

Now I don't say, that these players can't play. Absolutely not. I know that Virgil is a Drumgod and that Sherinian is one of the most musical men walking around on this planet. Maybe I was just too stupid to get what they were doing.

So therefore.... I would REALLY REALLY REALLY love to here something else played by Virgil than the stuff posted here and on his site. I just don't like all this stuff since its only about technique and playing fast in odd meters....

Please - if you have some straight funk, pop or rock stuff.... or even Virgil swinging in a BigBand... Post it. Do all of us this favor and I'm sure that all the discussion will vanish within seconds.

I hope you enjoy these, if not for anything else, then just as an expansion of your
view on the man.
All the best,
Morgenthaler

PS: I'm afraid I can't trust you on the Planet X review. I happen to LOVE "math-oriented" music. Earlier you'd get that more or less only from Indian or Balkan music, but now the west is slowly picking up on that, with Virgil being on the compositional and performing forefront.

Good God...Talk about taking a step back from blinding technique...I've never heard any of these before...You would never be able to tell it was Virgil...I mean we see all these solo's of him online just blowing eveyone away with chops and technique, but then I listen to this and it does not resemble the guy I've sceen online in the slightest...I have to admit, I'm very ignorant to a ton of his work...After doing a little reaserch myself, Jesus does he have a long list of studio work...

Thanks for those. All well done, and credit where credit is due. However I can't really say I would mistake any of it for the likes of Gadd or Marotta. It's good, capable session playing - all power to him for that. But I don't honestly think we'd be talking about Donati if this was all he did, he'd be one of the many unsung solid working session players out there. He's known because of the flash, and the flash is what he does best - it's the thing that makes him a name in the drumming world.

None of the files posted above shows the kind of creativity or individuality in a groove context that you'd expect of Gadd, Marotta, Purdie or even one of the choppier session guys like Vinnie. Which isn't in any way damning, as those guys are absolute geniuses in that respect. But I do think the claims made placing Donati on the same level are hyperbole, somewhat.

Also, as the person who posted the reference to Virgil being referred to as "Virgin", I do agree - it's low, and not something I would stoop to. That was directly in response to a claim that Virgil is universally loved by pros everywhere, which is not my experience personally. I'd just like to clarify that I'm not making *any* claim of fact, and the person making the comment wasn't either - it was, I believe, more an obvious punned insult than any kind of rumour.

I never said that you would go: "Hey that's exactly like Gadd/Laboriel/Marotta!!" -but in a blind test some of my friends were guessing those names : why I thought I'd mention it:) There are better examples of Virgil grooving "Gadd'ish" (you know what I mean) but the clips posted were merely the ones I could find online. Thanks for listening.
M

I never said that you would go: "Hey that's exactly like Gadd/Laboriel/Marotta!!" -but in a blind test some of my friends were guessing those names : why I thought I'd mention it:) There are better examples of Virgil grooving "Gadd'ish" (you know what I mean) but the clips posted were merely the ones I could find online. Thanks for listening.
M

That's all good. I'm just of the view that Virgil is an innovator only really in the sphere of technique, independence and extremely dense polyrhythmic/polymetric playing - and personally I find the stuff he does there rather random rather than having a unique individuality. He's certainly a very capable player (understatement of the year), but I just don't think he actually comes up with anything that I would personally peg as being great - either in a groove or choppy context.

The thing with somebody like Matt Chamberlain, Vinnie Colaiuta, Steve Gadd etc is that if you stick on a record with them then people can actually guess it's them, even when they're playing amazingly appropriately in very varied styles. It's the lack of something like that in Virgil's playing that is my major criticism of him, along with the fact that I really don't think his most identifiable aspect is actually very good in a musical sense.

But that's where we come down to taste. I know my friend the Toteman is going to disagree with me immediately here!

First of all: Thanks Morgenthaler for these great examples. If you can up some more Gaddish stuff, go ahead, I'd love to hear it.

Secondly: Great and tastefull playing on all of those - I have to admit that I'd never thought of Virgil on those examples. Great.

Thirdly: As always - I'm with Finn in what he stated about inventiveness and being a true genius. To me, Virgil feels like a drummer that worked and practised his ass off, which is great. Other guys like Gadd or Vinne feel different to me (allthough they practised their ass off too...) - they have that certain creative spark that is hard to capture and that I love so much about them.

Last thing I have to say is about your comment on Planet X and mathematical music. You can trust me, that I am DEEPLY into that kind of stuff - I was a student of Ralph Humphrey and he is the godfather of oddmeter drumming. I also took lessons with a tablamaster from India and know some of the concepts of their music. I have a quite solid collection of indian classical music and some great stuff with Trilok Gurtu on it. In other words: I know what I'm talking about - not wanting to be arrogant here, don't get me wrong. But all this music is not about showing off. Plant X sounded to me like it was. Thats what I didn't like.

Just listen to some Peter Gabriel or Sting. Many Odd Meters right there, a lot of math. But it doesn't sound like math at all and thats the trick.

But to go @ topic again: Very nive playing and FINALLY a guy who posts stuff from Virgil that actually does sound like music and not just fancy drumming. Great. Thank you!

This should clear up quite some arguments that happened in this thread!

IMO, once you get Virgil in a musical sceen where he is able to express alot of his own ideas is where you hear is individual style come out, and a very specific one...When I listen to his work with CABB, Planet X, VDB, and On the Virg, I hear a very original, musical, and innovative drummer that does not sound like anyone else in the world...When in this type of setting you could put any group of musicians with him and I would immediatley know it was Virgil...He has a very original way of playing fills, licks, and rhythms that only he does...hence the term "Donatisms"...

Finn, as you know I always do value your opinion even though we do disagree at times...Always liberating to hear what you have to say.

Last thing I have to say is about your comment on Planet X and mathematical music. You can trust me, that I am DEEPLY into that kind of stuff - I was a student of Ralph Humphrey and he is the godfather of oddmeter drumming. I also took lessons with a tablamaster from India and know some of the concepts of their music. I have a quite solid collection of indian classical music and some great stuff with Trilok Gurtu on it. In other words: I know what I'm talking about - not wanting to be arrogant here, don't get me wrong. But all this music is not about showing off. Plant X sounded to me like it was. Thats what I didn't like.

I'm with Sticktrick here. Missed that comment originally, but while Sticktrick is arguing from the Indian angle I'll take the Balkan one. I play with a guitarist from a Croatian family, and through him I've been exposed to quite a lot of the concepts used both in balkan styles and also some of the middle-eastern (mostly Islamic) music where a fair bit of that has filtered in from. One thing that's worth mentioning about the balkan/middle-eastern approach to rhythm is that while it's certainly very odd (I'm working at the moment on a piece in 11/8) it is also very deliberately structured to be musical and easy to comprehend. If you listen to balkan 4/4 playing it's actually not that different from the 11/8 playing or whatever, in that both approaches are clearly constructed from identifiable rhythms and for the most part aren't particularly angular.

The ultra-angular approach to odd-time playing seems to be something that is more of a feature of Western progressive music, it doesn't really seem to have a basis in any ethnic tradition I've yet encountered.

Probably the nearest I've heard to taking the kind of rhythmic concepts you'd see in an ethnic environment and adapting it to extremely conceptually dense Western heavy music would be something like Meshuggah (or Fredrik Thordendal's other work), there's a very clear effort going on in that music to make things both complex yet musically accessible. Parts that sound incredibly complex often unravel to be actually just heavily syncopated 4/4, while odd-time parts overlaid sound more often than not like exciting syncopations. You can hear the two perspectives, but there's a definite effort to make viewing them from either direction a musical experience rather than just a technically impressive feat.

Rhythmic concepts and time signatures are, in my view, just a canvas for an artist to work on. If you envision 4/4 as a standard, say, A4 (or similarly dimensioned) piece of paper then 11/8 could be a piece of paper that is slightly too tall or narrow. Changing the dimensions of the canvas doesn't automatically grant the art merit, but it does change the compositional rules in a way that makes you have to think about them. Unfortunately many people who play in odd times just seem to take the lazy approach of adding or subtracting notes from common-time bars, which IMHO is actually compositional nonsense and has no real shape unless you hit on something purely by accident. Donati hasn't done anything that I've managed to see interesting new compositional concepts hiding inside yet - either I'm too dumb to spot them or I'm smart enough to realise they're not there. Or, third possibility, it's all subjective and I just don't like his approach.

I like those clips a lot. Virgil can definetly groove and I didn't actually know he had that in him. That's really cool. Solid, solid studio playing! I love it.
Let me give an opinion. I don't have very much recording experience. There are guys who work the studios in town here every day. I work maybe once a month, and nothing big. I know though, it can be way, way, way more difficult to play in the studio and come up with a part that may be completely creative and groundbreaking. It's much, much easier and more condusive to working in studios further if you play conservatively. Unless you have a great amount of experience (let's not lie, guys like Gadd and Vinnie et al have played way more sessions) it's hard to play and let an individual voice creep through to the surface. So, it's possible to me that Virgil could have this impact if he did it way more than he does now. No matter what Gadd plays on, he sounds like Gadd. Maybe Virgil doesn't have his studio identity yet.

But before anonther discussion rises here, I'd really like to add, that what I sayed about Planet X was clearly not about Virgil - it was about the music of the band (and I think most of the stuff is written by Sherinian). What Virgil does with this band if freakin unbelievable. But I just plain don't like it. That is my own opinion and I stand for it.

BUT there are tons of other bands in this style, that I don't like either like Dream Theater or Marco Minnemanns Solo Projects (and I know Marco personally and he is probably one of the baddest mofas that have ever touched a drumset to say it with the words of Miles Davis, hehe. I love him - great german fellow great sense of humor, great drummer and songwriter. But still I just don't like his stuff - doesn't touch me).

So what I'm trying to say here is, that a) this is a discussion about music and has nothing to do with drumming to me and b) that it is really totally subjective - in other words it shouldn`t get personal because nobodys opinion is the right one - like Mark Schulmann always sayed: Opinions are like noses - everybody has got one.

And for all the guys that are into Virgil because of the flashy stuff AND all the guys that are into Gadd: Check out a german guy called Benny Greb. He is featured on this site and he is OUT OF CONTROL. I love him. If you don't know him, check him out.

In terms of being so far ahead of the race, I would definetly say that Virgil Donati is the Buddy Rich of the modern age. I know this is a bold statement, and I mean it in respects to Buddy Rich, but the thing is as time goes on the drummers are getting better and better and it's slightly niaeve to keep looking back at what HAPPENED when so many new innovations and techniques are happening NOW. That's not to say we shouldn't look back, and keep in mind this IS just my opinion, but I think someone like Virgil, who is the best example of dedication, is leagues beyond anyone else. Guys say he overplays, but I would almost PROMISE you that tons of guys said the same thing about Buddy, and we've even seen it with Weckl, and Coliauta in their time.

Now the question is who's the next Virgil Donati

And I would really rather not make this a huge flame war, and I'm pretty sure I came off too opinionated, so if this thread turns out to be a bad Idea it should probably be deleted.

I completely agree with your statements. Virgil deffinately is the Buddy Rich of our time and is beyond so many drummers out there in terms of skill, technique and style. I know its a small part of drumming but his ability to provide pleasing to the eye stick tricks is awesome he is an insane guy and someone i most admire. If anyone can get Steve Vai live in London his drum solo on it is the best drum solo i've ever seen except Buddy Rich's The Great drum solo with stick tricks.

I hoped for a broadening of everyones perception of Virgils drumming, and it seems it worked!
You should also check out what he played on the "Alfie" soundtrack with Joss Stone, Mick Jagger and Dave Stewart:

For me Virgil is the greatest known drummer at this time. He is a real master of the kit, he has more control than anyone else I've seen. Virgil is TOO dedicated to drumming and has sacrificed a lot to get where he is right now.

I don't believe he overplays. I haven't heard much of him but what I've heard is totally awesome.

I'm studying this guy for like a week now and my DB technique is getting better. My creativity has grown. My speed and control are getting way better, very fast. I recomend you people studying Virgil, this will help you a lot.

First off, can somebody tell me the name of the song Virgil Donati and his band are playing in one of the videos on drummerworld. The cool song that sounds like it could be a Primus song. I must know!

Anyhow, there's no way Virgil Donati is the "Buddy Rich" of today. Buddy Rich is a complete natural drummer. It says in his bio that he never recieved a formal lesson and never practiced outside of performances. Buddy Rich has the best hands ever and is so fluid around the kit. He was so creative and brought so many new concepts to the table.

Virgil's playing may be really technical and artsy, but anyone can play like that with practice and rehearsing.

Buddy Rich and Virgil Donati are so different. Buddy is raw skill and Virgil is all finesse.