***Council of Lyons II: “…The souls of those who die in mortal sin or with original sin only, however, immediately descend to hell, to be punished with different punishments…-- (Denzinger 464)

Council of Florence: “…Moreover, the souls of those who depart in actual mortal sin or in original sin only, descend immediately into hell but to undergo punishments of different kinds.— (Denzinger 693)

Pope John XXII: “It (The Roman Church) teaches… that the souls… of those who die in mortal sin, or with only original sin descend immediately into hell; however, to be punished with different penalties and in different places.” (Denzinger 493(a).

“It has been decided likewise that if anyone says that for this reason the Lord said: “In my father’s house there are many mansions”(JN14:2): that it might be understood that in the kingdom of heaven there will be some middle place or some place anywhere where the blessed infants live who departed from this life without baptism, without which they cannot enter into the kingdom of heaven, which is eternal life, let him be anathema. For when the lord says :“Unless a man be born of water and the Holy Ghost, he shall not enter into the kingdom of God”(Jn3:5), what Catholic will doubt that he will be partner of the devil who has not deserved to be a co-heir of Christ? For he who lacks the right part will without doubt run into the left” (Denzinger 102 fn.2; 30th edition)***

**St. Augustine … in the course of the controversy he himself condemned, and persuaded the Council of Carthage (418) to condemn, the substantially identical Pelagian teaching affirming the existence of “an intermediate place, or of any place anywhere at all (ullus alicubi locus), in which children who pass out of this life unbaptized live in happiness” (Denzinger 102).

Tradition holds that Zosimus published the canons of Council of Carthage as his own making them infallable in his famous Tractoria", in which Pelagianism and its authors were condemned.

“Thus, finally, the occupant of the Apostolic See at the right moment maintained with all authority the traditional dogma of the Church, and protected the truth of the Church against error.” (catholic Ecyclo. “Zosimus”)That is Why Denzinger 102 under the section of Zosimus in the Denzinger**

These quotes seem to be in conflict with what the church teaches now…thus making it’s infallibility shaky to me

Please help me! I dont want babies going to hell and I don’t want the church to be fallible!

…and here is another quote I found on a different catholic message board…

**Pope St. Siricius, 385, [Concerning the necessity of baptism] **
“Therefore just as we declare that respect for the Easter sacrifice [Paschal time] should not be lessened in the case of any person, in like manner we wish help to be brought with all speed to children who because of their age cannot yet speak, and to those who in any emergency are in need of the water of holy baptism, lest it should lead to the destruction of our souls if, by refusing the water of salvation to those who desire it, each of them, when taking leave of this world, should lose both the kingdom and life. Indeed whoever suffers the peril of shipwreck, an enemy attack, the danger of siege or desperation resulting from some bodily infirmity, and so asks for what in their faith is their only help, let them receive at the moment of their request the reward of regeneration that they beg for. This much should suffice for my digression on this subject; now let all priests who do not wish to be wrenched from the firmly-fixed rock of the apostles, on which Christ built his universal church, hold fast to the aforesaid rule.” (Latin found in Denzinger-Schonmetzer, Latin Edition, 1962, no. 184; an English Translation found in The Christian Faith, Sixth Revised and Enlarged Edition, Staten Island, NY: Alba House, 1996, p. 540.)

Notice that Pope St. Siricius says that not only infants, but even those who desire baptism and who are not able to recieve it sacramentally are deprived of "the kingdom and life."

…what is going on here, is the teaching of baptism of desire is being contradicted also?

The word hell they are using could very well be meaning PURGATORY. Like when we say the I belive in God prayer in the middle of it we say “Jesus was cruxfied, died and was buried. he decended into hell” (purgatory)

But i’m only guessing. You know what and I forgot where i read this however i read that the babies aborted are with the Virgin Mary in heaven praying for their parents who have aborted them.

Broaden this out, why is abortion so prevelant, but because of the sins of those that let it come to be.
to those that promote it as an industry of profit for those that perform, to the ludity, vulgarity, and permiscuaous natures that bring on the free for all sexual activity that todays CHILDREN waller in that see innercourse as an after school activity…

those are the souls that are NOT going to heaven, but with that lest broaden this out to those that merely look on and condon the actions by not standing against the sin that it is…

very few people are going to heaven, that is for sure, though the multitudes claim to be…

merely shaking your head in disgust doesnt excuss from the reality of the issue

though shall not covet the neighbors wife, but nor that which is not your wife. these are sins that can never be forgiven, of those that dont stand against by admitting they are sins that are unforgivenable.

The word hell they are using could very well be meaning PURGATORY. Like when we say the I belive in God prayer in the middle of it we say “Jesus was cruxfied, died and was buried. he decended into hell” (purgatory)

But i’m only guessing. You know what and I forgot where i read this however i read that the babies aborted are with the Virgin Mary in heaven praying for their parents who have aborted them.

why would a unborn baby suffer in purgatory for having no personal sins, I don’t think its the understanding of the Catholic Church that original sin can be “suffered away.”

The baptism of desire is an interesting angle in Jimmy Akin’s video but the question is would that apply to all babies, what if you have an abortion of a non catholic family or in a culture which is heavily non christian.

I think for me one thing is clear babies don’t go to hell for having no personally sin but because babies have original sin and only those who are pure can go into heaven I don’t know if unbaptized babies can go to heaven either, which would also eliminate purgatory.

but God’s infinite mercy may remove that stain to make them pure because of abortion, but that is all guess work.

I say lets continue to discuss this but at the same time have hope in the infinite mercy of God.

1258 The Church has always held the firm conviction that those who suffer death for the sake of the faith without having received Baptism are baptized by their death for and with Christ. This Baptism of blood, like the desire for Baptism, brings about the fruits of Baptism without being a sacrament.

1259 For catechumens who die before their Baptism, their explicit desire to receive it, together with repentance for their sins, and charity, assures them the salvation that they were not able to receive through the sacrament.

1260 "Since Christ died for all, and since all men are in fact called to one and the same destiny, which is divine, we must hold that the Holy Spirit offers to all the possibility of being made partakers, in a way known to God, of the Paschal mystery."63 Every man who is ignorant of the Gospel of Christ and of his Church, but seeks the truth and does the will of God in accordance with his understanding of it, can be saved. It may be supposed that such persons would have desired Baptism explicitly if they had known its necessity.

1261 As regards children who have died without Baptism, the Church can only entrust them to the mercy of God, as she does in her funeral rites for them. Indeed, the great mercy of God who desires that all men should be saved, and Jesus’ tenderness toward children which caused him to say: "Let the children come to me, do not hinder them,"64 allow us to hope that there is a way of salvation for children who have died without Baptism. All the more urgent is the Church’s call not to prevent little children coming to Christ through the gift of holy Baptism.

Idk … It seems hellish to me to have your body limbs torn off while in the womb by your parents. God is merciful and we can have hope in this. I guess it is important for the Church to hold funerals for all the unnamed babies who are aborted for their sacramentals.

Try this:ctkph.org/homilies/homilies_4minute/homily4min111101.htm
So yes, they taught about either hell or limbo as the place for the souls of unbaptized children, but not about purgatory or heaven. The simple explanation is that they couldn’t hypothesize about the soul of an unbaptized person ending up in heaven, because this would have represented an exception to the rule that there’s no salvation without Baptism.

You formed my inmost being;
you knit me in my mother’s womb.
praise you, because I am wonderfully made;
wonderful are your works!
My very self you know.

God creates and God is love - He does not destroy. These little ones that die in utero, wheter by an induced abortion or spontaneous abortion…are welcomed into eternal life with the Author of Life, God our Heavenly Father…Abba.

These quotes seem to be in conflict with what the church teaches now…thus making it’s infallibility shaky to me

Please help me! I dont want babies going to hell and I don’t want the church to be fallible!

…and here is another quote I found on a different catholic message board…

**Pope St. Siricius, 385, [Concerning the necessity of baptism] **
“Therefore just as we declare that respect for the Easter sacrifice [Paschal time] should not be lessened in the case of any person, in like manner we wish help to be brought with all speed to children who because of their age cannot yet speak, and to those who in any emergency are in need of the water of holy baptism, lest it should lead to the destruction of our souls if, by refusing the water of salvation to those who desire it, each of them, when taking leave of this world, should lose both the kingdom and life. Indeed whoever suffers the peril of shipwreck, an enemy attack, the danger of siege or desperation resulting from some bodily infirmity, and so asks for what in their faith is their only help, let them receive at the moment of their request the reward of regeneration that they beg for. This much should suffice for my digression on this subject; now let all priests who do not wish to be wrenched from the firmly-fixed rock of the apostles, on which Christ built his universal church, hold fast to the aforesaid rule.” (Latin found in Denzinger-Schonmetzer, Latin Edition, 1962, no. 184; an English Translation found in The Christian Faith, Sixth Revised and Enlarged Edition, Staten Island, NY: Alba House, 1996, p. 540.)

Notice that Pope St. Siricius says that not only infants, but even those who desire baptism and who are not able to recieve it sacramentally are deprived of "the kingdom and life."

…what is going on here, is the teaching of baptism of desire is being contradicted also?

I’m freaked out!:eek:

My knowledge is limited of course, but I don’t know of any Church teachings that contradict the ones above. You will surely find priests or bishops saying different and contradictory things, but the Church, as far as I know, has not made contradictory teachings.

You formed my inmost being;
you knit me in my mother’s womb.
praise you, because I am wonderfully made;
wonderful are your works!
My very self you know.

God creates and God is love - He does not destroy. These little ones that die in utero, wheter by an induced abortion or spontaneous abortion…are welcomed into eternal life with the Author of Life, God our Heavenly Father…Abba.

Praise You Holy One who the Heavens could not contain!

Having hope for the unborn is welcomed but it is clear that the Church teaches differently. Original Sin is the absence of divine life. If one dies in it, they cannot obtain heaven. I am open to the idea of “Baptism of Desire” being applied to those children that died before being born and to Christians with the desire of baptizing the child, but it don’t see how it can apply to unborn children of those parents with no desire to baptize.

I am open to the idea of “Baptism of Desire” being applied to those children that died before being born and to Christians with the desire of baptizing the child, but it don’t see how it can apply to unborn children of those parents with no desire to baptize.

Either implicit baptism of desire applies to all unbaptized children or to none. One’s parentage has no direct effect on one’s salvation.

Broaden this out, why is abortion so prevelant, but because of the sins of those that let it come to be.
to those that promote it as an industry of profit for those that perform, to the ludity, vulgarity, and permiscuaous natures that bring on the free for all sexual activity that todays CHILDREN waller in that see innercourse as an after school activity…

those are the souls that are NOT going to heaven, but with that lest broaden this out to those that merely look on and condon the actions by not standing against the sin that it is…

very few people are going to heaven, that is for sure, though the multitudes claim to be…

merely shaking your head in disgust doesnt excuss from the reality of the issue

though shall not covet the neighbors wife, but nor that which is not your wife. these are sins that can never be forgiven, of those that dont stand against by admitting they are sins that are unforgivenable.

let me just say this there is NO unforgivable sin, other then blasphemy of the holy spirit, God’s infinite mercy can forgive anything you do even the most horrible of sins are forgiven by God if someone seeks his forgiveness.

about how many people make it to heaven we don’t know that either so to claim that it is for sure that not many make it there is impossible. We can’t know with any certainty on how full heaven is or how hard or easy it is to make it to heaven. Its all speculation when we say most people make it heaven or most people go to hell, simply because we don’t know. WE only know that we either end up in Haven or in Hell.

Maybe I am too simple in my understanding, but is there not baptism by desire AND baptism by blood?

the issue with baptism by blood is that those who are martyred can be baptized by blood. You must be giving up your life for Jesus Christ or the truth that may represent Christ. So unborn babies don’t apply here.

Aborted babies aren’t martyrs for their faith, neither can they understand Baptism and desire to be baptized.
And even if the church would suddenly decree that all the aborted babies are martyrs, what does happen with the unborn children who die because of miscarriages? Or with the newborns who die unbaptized? Because they aren’t less innocent than the aborted ones.

the issue with baptism by blood is that those who are martyred can be baptized by blood. You must be giving up your life for Jesus Christ or the truth that may represent Christ. So unborn babies don’t apply here.

Presumably neither would infants before the age of reason, then. But the Holy Innocents are considered the first saints and martyrs for Christ.

Presumably neither would infants before the age of reason, then. But the Holy Innocents are considered the first saints and martyrs for Christ.

it has everything to do with the fact that they were killed because herod was trying to kill Jesus. So they were being killed in the name of Jesus. Unborn babies aren’t killed in a searching for Jesus or in the name of Jesus. the Holy innocents were killed in the name of Jesus.