I believe, as Traditional Orthodox, "winning friends and influencing people" is NOT what we should be concerned about!We should be spreading the TRUTH. I follow the blessed monks of the Esphigmenou Monastery on the Holy Mountain.

So it's 'Traditional Orthodoxy' this week? Boy, have I got a suggestion for another Orthodox forum for you!

« Last Edit: September 12, 2005, 10:00:09 AM by ozgeorge »

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If you're living a happy life as a Christian, you're doing something wrong.

So is ignoring pedophilia. The RCC is a cesspool and the pope is the anti-christ!

This has got to rank as one of the silliest, Jack Chickish-statements I've ever read in any Orthodox forum, bar none. Surely you jest! Your remarks are clearly NOT representative of Orthodox Christianity.

This has got to rank as one of the silliest, Jack Chickish-statements I've ever read in any Orthodox forum, bar none. Surely you jest! Your remarks are clearly NOT representative of Orthodox Christianity.

I follow the blessed monks of the Esphigmenou Monastery on the Holy Mountain.

Really? So for these particular monks, the pope is viewed as the anti-christ and the Roman Catholic Church is considered to be a cess pool. Is this correct? Forgive me for not accepting your word as gospel and asking that you provide some substantiation for this claim.

While I don't extend these feelings to "individuals", as an institution, the RCC needs to get on her hands and knees and beg for forgiveness for her sins against the Orthodox in Yugoslavia.

I actually read that webpage. ÃƒÆ’Ã¢â‚¬Å¡Ãƒâ€š I then looked online for corroboration of the staments. I found some at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Archbishop_Stepinac. ÃƒÆ’Ã¢â‚¬Å¡Ãƒâ€š This is the first I have ever heard of the man. ÃƒÆ’Ã¢â‚¬Å¡Ãƒâ€š I honestly do not know what to make of Archbishop Stepinac of Croatia. ÃƒÆ’Ã¢â‚¬Å¡Ãƒâ€š Did he mean to help people, but did he neverthless collaborate anyway with the fascistic Utashe government? ÃƒÆ’Ã¢â‚¬Å¡Ãƒâ€š Or, did he truly support the Utashe as enemies of communism and Orthodoxy, but did he also try to cover himself by trying to help some people ? ÃƒÆ’Ã¢â‚¬Å¡Ãƒâ€š Or, something else? ÃƒÆ’Ã¢â‚¬Å¡Ãƒâ€š I do not know.

A few months ago, someone asked at another online discussion forum: "Why don't the Orthodox want to reuntie with the Catholic Church?" ÃƒÆ’Ã¢â‚¬Å¡Ãƒâ€š And I responded that the Catholic Church has hurt the Orthodox in several specific and egregious ways throughout history: ÃƒÆ’Ã¢â‚¬Å¡Ãƒâ€š most notably, the 4th Crusade and Uniatism. ÃƒÆ’Ã¢â‚¬Å¡Ãƒâ€š (It was a uniate discussion forum, so the latter comment didn't go over well . . . ) ÃƒÆ’Ã¢â‚¬Å¡Ãƒâ€š Then, I added that the effects of those hurts have echoed through history down to the present day. ÃƒÆ’Ã¢â‚¬Å¡Ãƒâ€š Well, this *really* didn't go over well, so I apologized for any offense and exited from that website. ÃƒÆ’Ã¢â‚¬Å¡Ãƒâ€š Yet, the fact remains, these actions by the Catholic Church *did* cause real and substantial hurt to the Orthodox world. ÃƒÆ’Ã¢â‚¬Å¡Ãƒâ€š An apology is nice, but it is rather a beginning.

I think your attitude, SouthSerb, is at least *reasoned* in its outrage; and, you seem *to be willing* to make a distinction between the institution of the Roman Catholic Church and the individuals who are members of it.

Finally, I have not been a victim of such catastrophic evils; and so I cannot say what I would do or feel if that were my experience and heritage. ÃƒÆ’Ã¢â‚¬Å¡Ãƒâ€š However, I have experienced egregious personal hurt. ÃƒÆ’Ã¢â‚¬Å¡Ãƒâ€š I found that so long as I kept the anger alive, by nursing the memory of the injustice, I was still giving victory to the one who had hurt me. ÃƒÆ’Ã¢â‚¬Å¡Ãƒâ€š When I learned to forgive, I discovered two things. ÃƒÆ’Ã¢â‚¬Å¡Ãƒâ€š Christ had taken my burden; and, I was now the victor because I was no longer the prisoner of my hurt.

I hope you who were hurt by my church will rise above that hurt, by the power of Christ, and forgive, so that you too can know peace and victory.

Really? So for these particular monks, the pope is viewed as the anti-christ and the Roman Catholic Church is considered to be a cess pool. Is this correct? Forgive me for not accepting your word as gospel and asking that you provide some substantiation for this claim.

No force on zealot monks of the Esphigmenou Monastery on the Holy Mountain!

The Istanbul-based Ecumenical Patriarchate of Constantinople and the Mt Athos monastic community have opted for stealth rather than force in their efforts to evict some 100 ultra-Orthodox monks from the Esphigmenou Monastery.

The abbots of the other 19 Mt Athos monasteries met yesterday at Karyes, the communityÃƒÆ’Ã†â€™Ãƒâ€šÃ‚Â¢ÃƒÆ’Ã‚Â¢ÃƒÂ¢Ã¢â€šÂ¬Ã…Â¡Ãƒâ€šÃ‚Â¬ÃƒÆ’Ã‚Â¢ÃƒÂ¢Ã¢â€šÂ¬Ã…Â¾Ãƒâ€šÃ‚Â¢s administrative center, to decide on further action against the Esphigmenou monks whom they asked to leave the monastery in December 2002. The most likely course of action, it appeared last night, is to establish another monastic community, decare it the legal proprietors of the monastery and settle it temporarily elsewhere.

Last March, GreeceÃƒÆ’Ã†â€™Ãƒâ€šÃ‚Â¢ÃƒÆ’Ã‚Â¢ÃƒÂ¢Ã¢â€šÂ¬Ã…Â¡Ãƒâ€šÃ‚Â¬ÃƒÆ’Ã‚Â¢ÃƒÂ¢Ã¢â€šÂ¬Ã…Â¾Ãƒâ€šÃ‚Â¢s Council of State, the highest administrative court, rejected an appeal by EsphigmenouÃƒÆ’Ã†â€™Ãƒâ€šÃ‚Â¢ÃƒÆ’Ã‚Â¢ÃƒÂ¢Ã¢â€šÂ¬Ã…Â¡Ãƒâ€šÃ‚Â¬ÃƒÆ’Ã‚Â¢ÃƒÂ¢Ã¢â€šÂ¬Ã…Â¾Ãƒâ€šÃ‚Â¢s abbot, Methodios, to nullify the eviction order by the Patriarchate and the monastic community. The court said it had no jurisdiction over the matter, adding that the Patriarchate has absolute authority over the community. The Esphigmenou monks broke with the mainstream Orthodox Church in 1964, when Patriarch Athenagoras met with Pope John VI. The ultra-Orthodox regard the pope as evil incarnate. _________________

M'kay? Now go and save yourself and your family from the evils of the RCC!

I actually read that webpage. ÃƒÆ’Ã¢â‚¬Å¡Ãƒâ€š I then looked online for corroboration of the staments.ÃƒÆ’Ã¢â‚¬Å¡Ãƒâ€š I found some at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Archbishop_Stepinac. ÃƒÆ’Ã¢â‚¬Å¡Ãƒâ€š This is the first I have ever heard of the man. ÃƒÆ’Ã¢â‚¬Å¡Ãƒâ€š I honestly do not know what to make of Archbishop Stepinac of Croatia. ÃƒÆ’Ã¢â‚¬Å¡Ãƒâ€š Did he mean to help people, but did he neverthless collaborate anyway with the fascistic Utashe government? ÃƒÆ’Ã¢â‚¬Å¡Ãƒâ€š Or, did he truly support the Utashe as enemies of communism and Orthodoxy, but did he also try to cover himself by trying to help some people ? ÃƒÆ’Ã¢â‚¬Å¡Ãƒâ€š Or, something else? ÃƒÆ’Ã¢â‚¬Å¡Ãƒâ€š I do not know.

A few months ago, someone asked at another online discussion forum: "Why don't the Orthodox want to reuntie with the Catholic Church?" ÃƒÆ’Ã¢â‚¬Å¡Ãƒâ€š And I responded that the Catholic Church has hurt the Orthodox in several specific and egregious ways throughout history: ÃƒÆ’Ã¢â‚¬Å¡Ãƒâ€š most notably, the 4th Crusade and Uniatism. ÃƒÆ’Ã¢â‚¬Å¡Ãƒâ€š (It was a uniate discussion forum, so the latter comment didn't go over well . . . ) ÃƒÆ’Ã¢â‚¬Å¡Ãƒâ€š Then, I added that the effects of those hurts have echoed through history down to the present day. ÃƒÆ’Ã¢â‚¬Å¡Ãƒâ€š Well, this *really* didn't go over well, so I apologized for any offense and exited from that website. ÃƒÆ’Ã¢â‚¬Å¡Ãƒâ€š Yet, the fact remains, these actions by the Catholic Church *did* cause real and substantial hurt to the Orthodox world. ÃƒÆ’Ã¢â‚¬Å¡Ãƒâ€š An apology is nice, but it is rather a beginning.

I think your attitude, SouthSerb, is at least *reasoned* in its outrage; and, you seem *to be willing* to make a distinction between the institution of the Roman Catholic Church and the individuals who are members of it.

Finally, I have not been a victim of such catastrophic evils; and so I cannot say what I would do or feel if that were my experience and heritage. ÃƒÆ’Ã¢â‚¬Å¡Ãƒâ€š However, I have experienced egregious personal hurt. ÃƒÆ’Ã¢â‚¬Å¡Ãƒâ€š I found that so long as I kept the anger alive, by nursing the memory of the injustice, I was still giving victory to the one who had hurt me. ÃƒÆ’Ã¢â‚¬Å¡Ãƒâ€š When I learned to forgive, I discovered two things. ÃƒÆ’Ã¢â‚¬Å¡Ãƒâ€š Christ had taken my burden; and, I was now the victor because I was no longer the prisoner of my hurt.

My response probably wasn't as measured as it should have been, but I got caught up in the moment of the word "bigot" being tossed around.

Tom and I don't agree on most things, but I can tell you that I am fairly certain he is not a bigot.

As for "Archbishop" Stepinac. I think his role amongst the fascist Croatian regime speaks for itself. Some suggest he did not know/understand the extent of what was going on around him, I think that is unadulterated hogwash.

Remember, most Croatians (and many RCs) still claim that only 30,000 Serbs, Jews and Gypsies were murdered in WWII Croatian concentration camps. That is a bitter pill to swallow. My family was not directly affected by Jasenovac or the policies of fascist Croatia (convert 1/3, kill 1/3, expel 1/3). We were too busy getting hacked up by your friendly neighborhood Islamo-fascist Albanians.

I certainly do NOT harbor any ill will to individual RCs and to an extent, I'm mellowing with respect to the Vatican, although I really think they need to come clean about their role in WWII and even with regards to the current break-up of Yugoslavia.

Truth be told, there are several photographs depicted RC Clergy partaking in forced conversion ceremonies (this is where the apologists ask me to prove what the pics show).... well I put the pics in historical context and it doesn't take much imagination to figure it out.

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I hope you who were hurt by my church will rise above that hurt, by the power of Christ, and forgive, so that you too can know peace and victory.

On most other church topics, Tom takes a secularist approach, but on his long held anti-catholicism (what was I just saying in another thread about protestant converts and anti-catholicism...) resorts to Esfigmenou. I don't know about others on this board, but have actually been to Esfigmenou - at that monastery Tom would not be considered Orthodox, nor allowed to stand inside the church during services.

I think like was mentioned in another thread there is a difference between true Judenhass and disagrement with zionist policy - the same hold true to this topic. I disagree with both Vatican policy (i.e the ustashi incident etc.) and Catholic doctrine - that is why I became Orthodox. But there are some people that will hate and revile anything that even remotely relates to Catholicism - Jack Chick style.

When Rome does something positive, I think the Orthodox should be happy. The same goes with protestant groups that do positive things for society.

On most other church topics, Tom takes a secularist approach, but on his long held anti-catholicism (what was I just saying in another thread about protestant converts and anti-catholicism...) resorts to Esfigmenou.

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Regardless of whether the original post was said tongue in cheek or not, it is totally inappropriate.[/center]

People within the RCC have been exceedingly evil. But it has also been the bastion of a great many philanthropic institutions. Since you suddenly claim to be an Orthodox Traditionalist now, look towards the fathers that tell you to be like a bee and take only that which is good from everywhere.

You've gone too far this time. I've just reported you and I hope the moderators put a stop to this kind of bigotry. This bigot wants the church that I spent several years building to burn to the ground. This bigot wants the church I was raised in to be burned to the ground.

While I don't extend these feelings to "individuals", as an institution, the RCC needs to get on her hands and knees and beg for forgiveness for her sins against the Orthodox in Yugoslavia.

But Tom's a bigot. It's pretty clear now that he's praying for every Roman Catholic Church to be burned to the ground. Tom obviously feels far more than "dislike" for the RCC.

And yes, I agree that the RCC, as an institution, has done harm in the world but I also believe that the RCC, as an institution, has done good in the world. Most of the hospitals in the United States were founded by Roman Catholic orders. Catholic Charities does tremendous good.

More than anything else, the Roman Catholic Church is where I first heard the word preached. It's where I first learned about Christ. It's where I meet good Christians who helped me through some bad times. It's the church of St. Therese of Lisieux and Dorothy Day and St. Francis and St. Clare. I won't argue that they were right about papal infallibility but they weren't evil.

If this kind of rhetoric is allowed to remain on this board, visitors won't know that we're reasonable. They'll think we're another group of rabid anti-Catholic Orthodox bigots when we all know that Tom is just playing another one of his games. He doesn't speak for anyone here.

I follow the blessed monks of the Esphigmenou Monastery on the Holy Mountain.

While I'm not fan of the papists, these Schismatic 'monks' are no better; rather I would say that the Latins are more virtuous, for at least they are in Obedience to their Bishop, which is more than can be said for these false teachers you claim to follow.

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"The liberties of people never were, nor ever will be, secure, when the transactions of their rulers may be concealed from them." -- Patrick Henry

What you say of Esphigmenou is not true either. The monks are in obedience to their igoumen and in communion with the synod of Archbishop Chrysostomos II of Athens. While I disagree with their position, I won't slander them either and say they are in obedience to noone, while Catholics are.

It's the church of St. Therese of Lisieux and Dorothy Day and St. Francis and St. Clare.ÃƒÆ’Ã¢â‚¬Å¡Ãƒâ€š I won't argue that they were right about papal infallibility but they weren't evil.

While it is not for me to comment on their moral qualities, I can say with some confidence that these people are most certainly not Saints; for we do not list those who are foreign to the Christian Church amongst the Saints who served Her.

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"The liberties of people never were, nor ever will be, secure, when the transactions of their rulers may be concealed from them." -- Patrick Henry

What you say of Esphigmenou is not true either.ÃƒÆ’Ã¢â‚¬Å¡Ãƒâ€š The monks are in obedience to their igoumen and in communion with the synod of Archbishop Chrysostomos II of Athens.ÃƒÆ’Ã¢â‚¬Å¡Ãƒâ€š While I disagree with their position, I won't slander them either and say they are in obedience to noone, while Catholics are.ÃƒÆ’Ã¢â‚¬Å¡Ãƒâ€š

They are within the Lands of the Patriarchate of Constantinople, and in regard to their rightful Bishop they live in defiance. Furthermore, I believe that, canonically speaking, the Synod of Chrysostomos II is an even greater abomination than that of Rome; the latter, at least, exists by Right of an Oecumenical Synod, a right that we have never revoked with a Synod of comprable authority; the former, on the other hand, consists of men and successors of men who have been canonically deposed.

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"The liberties of people never were, nor ever will be, secure, when the transactions of their rulers may be concealed from them." -- Patrick Henry

While it is not for me to comment on their moral qualities, I can say with some confidence that these people are most certainly not Saints; for we do not list those who are foreign to the Christian Church amongst the Saints who served Her.

I should remind everyone that GiC refused to acknowledge that St. John of San Francisco was an Orthodox saint.

I seriously doubt that St. Therese of Lisieux and St. John of San Francisco are "foreign to the Christian Church."

I am not defending the position of the GOC nor Esfigmenou. I am stating only that they do not live in ecclesiastical anarchy. Those within the Patriarchate and state church of Greece that wrote against Old Calendarism (at least the better writters) did not make that claim against them. I'd suggest you read what Elder Philotheos Zervakos and other wrote on the subject.

Jennifer -

You are mixing two seperate issues. GiC's rejection of Saint John Maximovitch is quite strange, and as I have pointed out before simply exemplifies his ignorance of Greek practice regarding the synaxarion. As for the RC saints you mention, they are not part of Orthodoxy, so the church does not see them as saints. How can those who weren't part of the Church be saints in it?

You are mixing two seperate issues. GiC's rejection of Saint John Maximovitch is quite strange, and as I have pointed out before simply exemplifies his ignorance of Greek practice regarding the synaxarion. As for the RC saints you mention, they are not part of Orthodoxy, so the church does not see them as saints. How can those who weren't part of the Church be saints in it?

Oh, I understand GiC and I understand that they are different issues. I am not "offended" by GiC's argument that Roman Catholic saints are not saints. I know that many Orthodox do not accept Roman Catholic saints as saints. However, I accept Roman Catholic saints as saints because I see them as part of the Church (perhaps in an imperfect way).

I seriously doubt that St. Therese of Lisieux and St. John of San Francisco are "foreign to the Christian Church."

Putting aside the fact that some of her theology is horrendous (and if I was feeling either particularly honest or uncharitable I would say heretical, but fortunately I'm not), I fear I fail to see how it is unreasonable to assert that people who die estranged from the Church cannot so easily be regarded as Saints of the Church. If someone dies outside the Church I would expect, at the very least, a declaration that said person is a Saint by the Great Church of Chriat; and preferably a few Anathemas against the supposed heretics who forced them out of the Church, as heresy is the ONLY Canonical Justification for breaking communion with your Bishop.

« Last Edit: September 12, 2005, 08:28:25 PM by greekischristian »

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"The liberties of people never were, nor ever will be, secure, when the transactions of their rulers may be concealed from them." -- Patrick Henry

You've gone too far this time.ÃƒÆ’Ã¢â‚¬Å¡Ãƒâ€š I've just reported you and I hope the moderators put a stop to this kind of bigotry.ÃƒÆ’Ã¢â‚¬Å¡Ãƒâ€š This bigot wants the church that I spent several years building to burn to the ground.ÃƒÆ’Ã¢â‚¬Å¡Ãƒâ€š This bigot wants the church I was raised in to be burned to the ground.ÃƒÆ’Ã¢â‚¬Å¡Ãƒâ€š

OH NO!!! I be in trouble now!ÃƒÆ’Ã¢â‚¬Å¡Ãƒâ€š

There is a difference between praying for something and actually going out and torching them.

BUILDINGS.... They are not people... Brick and Morter... that's all they are. I know a couple of people who were molested by your ex church (of Satan) who would LOVE nothing more to see this happen. These innocents have been abandoned by this so called "church"

However, I accept Roman Catholic saints as saints because I see them as part of the Church (perhaps in an imperfect way).

For that then, your opinion is outside of the church. The Orthodox church sees herself as the entire one, holy, catholic and apostolic church. So it is odd that you would find fault with GiC when he is upholding the teaching of the Church.

For that then, your opinion is outside of the church. The Orthodox church sees herself as the entire one, holy, catholic and apostolic church. So it is odd that you would find fault with GiC when he is upholding the teaching of the Church.

I know some Orthodox who agree with me and some Orthodox who don't. I don't find "fault" with GiC. However, I myself see sanctity in Roman Catholic saints like St. Therese.

For that then, your opinion is outside of the church.ÃƒÆ’Ã¢â‚¬Å¡Ãƒâ€š The Orthodox church sees herself as the entire one, holy, catholic and apostolic church.ÃƒÆ’Ã¢â‚¬Å¡Ãƒâ€š So it is odd that you would find fault with GiC when he is upholding the teaching of the Church.ÃƒÆ’Ã¢â‚¬Å¡Ãƒâ€š

AMEN! Although, as all know, I have issues accepting all the teachings of the Church - I agree that the Orthodox Church IS the True Church.

If you are a member of the Orthodox Church and you think otherwise - then you are basically saying that it does not matter which church you belong to.

Do you feel there is Salvation in the Roman Catholic church? If you do, then why did you leave it? And please, go BACK TO IT!!!

Putting aside the fact that some of her theology is horrendous (and if I was feeling either particularly honest or uncharitable I would say heretical, but fortunately I'm not), I fear I fail to see how it is unreasonable to assert that people who die estranged from the Church cannot so easily be regarded as Saints of the Church. If someone dies outside the Church I would expect, at the very least, a declaration that said person is a Saint by the Great Church of Chriat; and preferably a few Anathemas against the supposed heretics who forced them out of the Church, as heresy is the ONLY Canonical Justification for breaking communion with your Bishop.

I didn't write that it was unreasonable to argue that Roman Catholic saints are not saints. However, I personally disagree. As for St. Therese, I've had the grace in my life to be acquainted with some good Roman Catholics who have a particular devotion to Little Therese. They're good people and they love God so I won't judge them.

AMEN! Although, as all know, I have issues accepting all the teachings of the Church - I agree that the Orthodox Church IS the True Church.

If you are a member of the Orthodox Church and you think otherwise - then you are basically saying that it does not matter which church you belong to.

Do you feel there is Salvation in the Roman Catholic church? If you do, then why did you leave it? And please, go BACK TO IT!!!

Tom, what you write is a disgusting insult to people I know and love. To a good priest who put up with me for years. Who's still there for me whenever I need him even though I 'doxed.' A man who has literally given the shirt off of his back to people in need. I'd take him over anyone here, myself included.

It's an insult to a parish full of good people who welcomed me even though I didn't agree with them about everything. Good people who deserve better than your bigotry.

Tom, what you write is a disgusting insult to people I know and love.ÃƒÆ’Ã¢â‚¬Å¡Ãƒâ€š To a good priest who put up with me for years.ÃƒÆ’Ã¢â‚¬Å¡Ãƒâ€š Who's still there for me whenever I need him even though I 'doxed.'ÃƒÆ’Ã¢â‚¬Å¡Ãƒâ€š A man who has literally given the shirt off of his back to people in need.ÃƒÆ’Ã¢â‚¬Å¡Ãƒâ€š I'd take him over anyone here, myself included.ÃƒÆ’Ã¢â‚¬Å¡Ãƒâ€š

I am not talking about individuals - I am talking about the institution. As an example, I agree that Mother Teresa was a Saint, but only because she was able to create her "Saintliness" outside of the RCC. She would have been a SaintÃƒÆ’Ã¢â‚¬Å¡Ãƒâ€š in my eyes even of she was a Buddhist. Because God is good.

As a Canadian, this is something which gets under my skin here too.ÃƒÆ’Ã¢â‚¬Å¡Ãƒâ€š There are so many born, white Canadians who endlessly complain about the changing complexion of their country due to immigration.ÃƒÆ’Ã¢â‚¬Å¡Ãƒâ€š Yet the fact of the matter is, these same whites don't have children, and certainly not in the numbers needed to replace themselves, let alone populate our vastly under-populated, resource rich nation.ÃƒÆ’Ã¢â‚¬Å¡Ãƒâ€š So, if it takes bringing in east-Indians, Pakistanis, Chinese, etc. to keep the wheels turning, well t.s..

Canada is not underpopulated at all if you consider how, as a "first world" country it leaves a massive ecological footprint on the earth. ÃƒÆ’Ã¢â‚¬Å¡Ãƒâ€š Also, even with a moderating trend in temperature, I don't see a huge trend towards migration to Baffin Island or anywhere else in Nunavut, for that matter. ÃƒÆ’Ã¢â‚¬Å¡Ãƒâ€š Is Northern Siberia also "vastly underpopulated?" ÃƒÆ’Ã¢â‚¬Å¡Ãƒâ€š Population growth in Canada has always been close to the American border. ÃƒÆ’Ã¢â‚¬Å¡Ãƒâ€š But otherwise, you make some good points. ÃƒÆ’Ã¢â‚¬Å¡Ãƒâ€š

as heresy is the ONLY Canonical Justification for breaking communion with your Bishop.

Which is why the GOC separated from your hierarchs, because it sees them as heretics or at best in communion with heretics. While you will undoubtedly assert that your hierarchs are not heretics and that the GOC is therefore schismatic, wrong, "an abomination", etc. you have to admit they are being consistent and at least should be more charitable towards them.

I have to agree with Jennifer, Tom. ÃƒÆ’Ã¢â‚¬Å¡Ãƒâ€š I don't know why you have such an obsessive hatred for the Latin Church. ÃƒÆ’Ã¢â‚¬Å¡Ãƒâ€š Or why you don't accept certain central doctrines of Orthodoxy and then imply that you are allied with the "ultra Orthodox".

I have to agree with Jennifer, Tom. ÃƒÆ’Ã¢â‚¬Å¡Ãƒâ€š I don't know why you have such an obsessive hatred for the Latin Church. ÃƒÆ’Ã¢â‚¬Å¡Ãƒâ€š Or why you don't accept certain central doctrines of Orthodoxy and then imply that you are allied with the "ultra Orthodox".

Which is why the GOC separated from your hierarchs, because it sees them as heretics or at best in communion with heretics.ÃƒÆ’Ã¢â‚¬Å¡Ãƒâ€š While you will undoubtedly assert that your hierarchs are not heretics and that the GOC is therefore schismatic, wrong, "an abomination", etc. you have to admit they are being consistent and at least should be more charitable towards them.

That they are consistant I will grant, but so are the Latins...for that matter so are the demons (No one be too offended, I'm not making a comparison, just a point). However, your post does bring up an interesting point, the fact that the GOC believes the Orthodox Church to be in Heresy. This would imply that their beliefs are inconsonant with those of the Church, which from my perspective are clearly Orthodox; thus, perhaps the conclusion that should be drawn is that the GOC is not technically schismatic, but rather heretical, for they hold beliefs that are inconsonant with the Orthodox Faith as professed by the Orthodox Church. Of course, the other possibility is simply ignorance of the Faith of the Church, in which case they would be schismatics; perhaps this is an issue that warrents further investigation.

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"The liberties of people never were, nor ever will be, secure, when the transactions of their rulers may be concealed from them." -- Patrick Henry

That they are consistant I will grant, but so are the Latins...for that matter so are the demons (No one be too offended, I'm not making a comparison, just a point). However, your post does bring up an interesting point, the fact that the GOC believes the Orthodox Church to be in Heresy. This would imply that their beliefs are inconsonant with those of the Church, which from my perspective are clearly Orthodox; thus, perhaps the conclusion that should be drawn is that the GOC is not technically schismatic, but rather heretical, for they hold beliefs that are inconsonant with the Orthodox Faith as professed by the Orthodox Church. Of course, the other possibility is simply ignorance of the Faith of the Church, in which case they would be schismatics; perhaps this is an issue that warrents further investigation.

Your argument seriously misrepresents the GOC position, but I don't think that worries you too much. For the benefit of people reading, and not because I think I can actually get anywhere with you personally, I will respond to your post. The GOC does not beleive the Orthodox Church is in heresy. The GOC believes it is the Orthodox Church and that your local Church is in heresy and no longer the Orthodox Church. You are cleverly trying to defeat the GOC position based on an argument from authority; however, since the authority in question is disputed you are not going to be successful. You believe the EP is the Church; the GOC does not. Because the GOC does not believe the EP is the Orthodox Church, it is obliged to separate from it. If you turn out to be right, one would hope that God will have mercy on the GOC precisely because it followed the canons of the Church and separated from what it perceives as heresy. If of course the GOC is right, one would hope that God will have mercy on the New Calendarists for staying in communion with the EP, which would be the logical thing to do provided the EP is Orthodox.

I have to agree with Jennifer, Tom. ÃƒÆ’Ã¢â‚¬Å¡Ãƒâ€š I don't know why you have such an obsessive hatred for the Latin Church. ÃƒÆ’Ã¢â‚¬Å¡Ãƒâ€š Or why you don't accept certain central doctrines of Orthodoxy and then imply that you are allied with the "ultra Orthodox".

I wonder if it would make any difference if the Pope came out and Infallibly declared contraception a serious sin. You know - made it a dogma of faith.

I wonder if it would make any difference if the Pope came out and Infallibly declared contraception a serious sin. You know - made it a dogma of faith.

JoeS ÃƒÆ’Ã¢â‚¬Å¡Ãƒâ€š

It is my understanding that the ordinary magisterium has already spoken on the matter and hence from a Catholic pov there is no need for an infallible statement from the pope since the ordinary magisterium is infallible as well.

I'm going to attempt to speak for Tom (who I think is being unfairly tatooed with mud here), but I think he's been pretty clear in some of what he's said about the RCC. As an INSTITUTION he is digusted by some of the things which have gone on "behind closed doors" and then covered up, the way a cat covers her mess in the litter box.

Personally, I don't find that too difficult to understand (although I'm terribly perplexed at somehow agreeing with Tom on an issue ). I think Tom could have used a lot more tact in getting his message across, but that's Tom. He's like "culture shock" all wound up in a single person .

Jennifer, although I respect the fact that you were raised in the RCC and I do acknowledge that the RCC has done much good in this world, surely you can see the other side of the coin? On your best day, it would be tough to ever convince a Serbian Orthodox Christian that the RCC is more good than bad. (We've got the graves to prove it to you).

Maybe us Serbs should just recruit TomS as one of us! Heck, are name can't get any worse, or could it?

GOC: Short for Church of the Genuine Orthodox Christians. Also known as Greek Old Calendarists. ÃƒÆ’Ã¢â‚¬Å¡Ãƒâ€š A Church stemming from faithful who resisted the change of the calendar and ecumenism in 1924 in Greece and Romania. ÃƒÆ’Ã¢â‚¬Å¡Ãƒâ€š In 1935 3 bishops of the state Church of Greece returned to the Old Calendar to lead the movement. A long story. ÃƒÆ’Ã¢â‚¬Å¡Ãƒâ€š Check the wikipedia article on Greek Old Calendarists and ask me any questions you might have.