if my post came over as gloating it wasn't intended to. I just find it strange that after 6 years, with a re-opened investigation by the PJ and the SY conducting one and both saying that the parents are not involved that their appearances are so different from the early days of when Madeleine went missing, which is went the not knowing, guilt, blame, not being able to sleep etc etc, grief tend to show physically and not caring what you look like or what you wear. I also believe that they now dress to look a certain way. I agree with your post. jimo.

Hi Comparedna, with 37 Detectives and 5 Clerical Staff working for well over 2 years Redwood had to use an Efit of a suspect which had been drawn 5 yrs previously and a changing "persons of interest........not good enough is it.!!! Why continue with the farce and let the 4 Portugese Officers carry on because they were the ones who produced enough evidence for the case to be re-opened.

tanszi wrote:if my post came over as gloating it wasn't intended to. I just find it strange that after 6 years, with a re-opened investigation by the PJ and the SY conducting one and both saying that the parents are not involved that their appearances are so different from the early days of when Madeleine went missing, which is went the not knowing, guilt, blame, not being able to sleep etc etc, grief tend to show physically and not caring what you look like or what you wear. I also believe that they now dress to look a certain way. I agree with your post. jimo.

I don't look like I did 6 years ago either more's the pity and people do age and whatever they've been through would have aged them.

I think a lot of people have been negatively affected by this case, and not all of them got millions of pounds and celebrity status to go along with it, including the ability to influence a country's choice of Prime Minister, what with their pull with the Murdoch papers etc.

Not that anyone would CHOOSE that over having their child alive, of course they wouldn't. But many people including complete strangers to this family, have spent anxious days and nights fretting about this, about what it means for other missing kids, whether you can trust your government, the police, the (shameful) state of the British media, the unfair treatment of the rich vs the typical person, and so on.

They should look terrible not because it's what they deserve -although that could be true - but because it's what's real - 6 years later, they have had 6 years of fear, stress, anxiety - for whatever reason - and it shows. If "people not looking for Madeleine" is this stressful how do you compare that with the stress that would be theirs just from having her missing or dead? There is no way to say had people all run about looking for her and not found her but Amaral did not write his book, they would look much less stressed.

If it were me I'd look worse than Kate and I do feel my general outlook on life and all that goes with that, has not been elevated by what we've learned about life watching this case.

I did not for one MOMENT think YOU were gloating! I just meant that I will try and curb my 'relief' if they are ever seriously questioned, and found to have lied to the police (now why would they do that!?) but they very definitely have, and they should be REQUIRED to give a proper account of what they know, rather than have DCI Redwood announce to the world not just that they were no longer 'suspects', but that they were no longer 'persons of interest', which in the normal use of English words simply cannot be true! Perhaps 'persons of interest' has come to mean 'suspects but we are not allowed to say so'... 'vitally important witnesses' eh? Will that do, folks?

Iris.

I am fascinated to know that about the 14 bottles. Is that for sure? I thought there MUST have been such evidence and even if one of them at the table was a right old wine-swigger, the average amount drunk is over a bottle per person! That is enough units to make a horse tipsy.

Panda.

I have not ruled out orthodox abduction by means of a car, I don't know for sure, obviously, but I can't for the life of me see:

Abduction

- for what LIKELY purpose: 'paedophile ring' or 'child trafficking': lots of other unguarded children are so much more easy to snatch anywhere in eastern Europe. (I think Redwood and co, by means of 37 experienced coppers are going for this option.)- opportunistic paedophile? Where is the body? The poor child would likely have lasted a matter of hours.- Slightly creepy or over-helpful 'friend of the family' offerring to bath the children and MBM falling in the bath hitting her head and expiring, the death having to be covered up because all of unallowed sedation. Surely that is just a version of later 'accidental death' (see below under more likely)- burglar accidentally smothering her whilst looking for loot in 5A? Nonsense. He would have high-tailed out of there in shock, leaving her body behind.- kidnap for ransome gone wrong? No ransome note. No body.- stealing to order for a childless couple? Bonkers idea. Anyway, they would have picked Amelie, a younger and less articulate child. To live where? FGS she was almost FOUR. Unless she was kept in a dungeon, horrid thought, she would say 'My name is Madeleine Mccann. Take me back to my Mummy and Daddy.'- abduction as part of a hoax. MBM would now be living with distant relatives in Canada or somewhere. In my day it was acceptable for a child, awkward to look after by the parents for some reason, to be brought up by grandparents. The elder brother of the boy and girl living two doors down from us was brought up by his grandparents, and no-one thought anything of it. He sometimes came over to play. He was much older. In this particular case I now suspect he was not a child of the marriage. Maybe it wasn't 'done' for MBM's parents to let another relative bring up Madeleine, and she had to be officially 'stolen away', and as a spin off allowing her parents to save face, and make money into the bargain. This one has just a tiny bit of mileage for me, but only a very little bit.- abduction by aliens. About as likely as the rest above.

***** More likely- Accident in the flat or possibly in A flat if she was not in 5a at the time and being looked after by A N Other with the other children. I think the accident a bit more likely than banging of the head, is the sort of accidental death suffered by Jimi Hendrix... lying on your back, being sick, and aspirating on the vomit. A tragedy for sure, and manslaughter if non-allowed sedatives had by chance been given... Not that I know if they were.

I agree that if this happened outside their own flat, she must have been carried into 5A, and (I only mean if) and her body would have had to be concealed there, so giving rise to the dogs alerts.

I think ***** so much more simple as an explanation. It fits the facts better than any of the others. Occams razor.

NB. One of the parents, probably Kate, may not know for sure exactly how things happened. I suppose it could be both of them. Others, if they were also involved in sedation for convenience, could have protected them from the details.

I think it it is stretching the use of the term 'abduction' beyond its limits to speak of the 'abduction' of a body from the flat, by arrangement with some contact, acquaintance or friend. Surely this 'removal' would have had to be by someone very close, or tied in to the group in some way, for fear of later disclosure.

However they look, however they feel, they've brought it all on themselves by their arrogance, denial of any wrong doing and their hounding, persecution, litigation and destruction of anyone's lives who had the temerity to disagree with their story stories. All that was ever needed at the outset was for them to have told the truth. Whatever has happened to Madeleine, (the true story will probably never be known) the case would have been over six years and forgotten by the public at large and they would be just nameless faces, served their sentence (if found guilty) settled in another country and getting on with their lives.

I did not for one MOMENT think YOU were gloating! I just meant that I will try and curb my 'relief' if they are ever seriously questioned, and found to have lied to the police (now why would they do that!?) but they very definitely have, and they should be REQUIRED to give a proper account of what they know, rather than have DCI Redwood announce to the world not just that they were no longer 'suspects', but that they were no longer 'persons of interest', which in the normal use of English words simply cannot be true! Perhaps 'persons of interest' has come to mean 'suspects but we are not allowed to say so'... 'vitally important witnesses' eh? Will that do, folks?

Iris.

I am fascinated to know that about the 14 bottles. Is that for sure? I thought there MUST have been such evidence and even if one of them at the table was a right old wine-swigger, the average amount drunk is over a bottle per person! That is enough units to make a horse tipsy.

Panda.

I have not ruled out orthodox abduction by means of a car, I don't know for sure, obviously, but I can't for the life of me see:

Abduction

- for what LIKELY purpose: 'paedophile ring' or 'child trafficking': lots of other unguarded children are so much more easy to snatch anywhere in eastern Europe. (I think Redwood and co, by means of 37 experienced coppers are going for this option.)- opportunistic paedophile? Where is the body? The poor child would likely have lasted a matter of hours.- Slightly creepy or over-helpful 'friend of the family' offerring to bath the children and MBM falling in the bath hitting her head and expiring, the death having to be covered up because all of unallowed sedation. Surely that is just a version of later 'accidental death' (see below under more likely)- burglar accidentally smothering her whilst looking for loot in 5A? Nonsense. He would have high-tailed out of there in shock, leaving her body behind.- kidnap for ransome gone wrong? No ransome note. No body.- stealing to order for a childless couple? Bonkers idea. Anyway, they would have picked Amelie, a younger and less articulate child. To live where? FGS she was almost FOUR. Unless she was kept in a dungeon, horrid thought, she would say 'My name is Madeleine Mccann. Take me back to my Mummy and Daddy.'- abduction as part of a hoax. MBM would now be living with distant relatives in Canada or somewhere. In my day it was acceptable for a child, awkward to look after by the parents for some reason, to be brought up by grandparents. The elder brother of the boy and girl living two doors down from us was brought up by his grandparents, and no-one thought anything of it. He sometimes came over to play. He was much older. In this particular case I now suspect he was not a child of the marriage. Maybe it wasn't 'done' for MBM's parents to let another relative bring up Madeleine, and she had to be officially 'stolen away', and as a spin off allowing her parents to save face, and make money into the bargain. This one has just a tiny bit of mileage for me, but only a very little bit.- abduction by aliens. About as likely as the rest above.

***** More likely- Accident in the flat or possibly in A flat if she was not in 5a at the time and being looked after by A N Other with the other children. I think the accident a bit more likely than banging of the head, is the sort of accidental death suffered by Jimi Hendrix... lying on your back, being sick, and aspirating on the vomit. A tragedy for sure, and manslaughter if non-allowed sedatives had by chance been given... Not that I know if they were.

I agree that if this happened outside their own flat, she must have been carried into 5A, and (I only mean if) and her body would have had to be concealed there, so giving rise to the dogs alerts.

I think ***** so much more simple as an explanation. It fits the facts better than any of the others. Occams razor.

NB. One of the parents, probably Kate, may not know for sure exactly how things happened. I suppose it could be both of them. Others, if they were also involved in sedation for convenience, could have protected them from the details.

I think it it is stretching the use of the term 'abduction' beyond its limits to speak of the 'abduction' of a body from the flat, by arrangement with some contact, acquaintance or friend. Surely this 'removal' would have had to be by someone very close, or tied in to the group in some way, for fear of later disclosure.

I did not for one MOMENT think YOU were gloating! I just meant that I will try and curb my 'relief' if they are ever seriously questioned, and found to have lied to the police (now why would they do that!?) but they very definitely have, and they should be REQUIRED to give a proper account of what they know, rather than have DCI Redwood announce to the world not just that they were no longer 'suspects', but that they were no longer 'persons of interest', which in the normal use of English words simply cannot be true! Perhaps 'persons of interest' has come to mean 'suspects but we are not allowed to say so'... 'vitally important witnesses' eh? Will that do, folks?

Iris.

I am fascinated to know that about the 14 bottles. Is that for sure? I thought there MUST have been such evidence and even if one of them at the table was a right old wine-swigger, the average amount drunk is over a bottle per person! That is enough units to make a horse tipsy.

Panda.

I have not ruled out orthodox abduction by means of a car, I don't know for sure, obviously, but I can't for the life of me see:

Abduction

- for what LIKELY purpose: 'paedophile ring' or 'child trafficking': lots of other unguarded children are so much more easy to snatch anywhere in eastern Europe. (I think Redwood and co, by means of 37 experienced coppers are going for this option.)Kids are easier to snatch elsewhere or even to buy - but to play devil's advocate - pedos take holidays too. If they were able to identify a child or children that were vulnerable, what would stop them taking one in a holiday resort? I think they surely would not plan that, but as McCanns have made glaringly obvious young kids of well to do parents are often left alone in these resorts, since "everyone does it" why not target one or take one?

- opportunistic paedophile? Where is the body? The poor child would likely have lasted a matter of hours.

True - however children who have been murdered are often not found until much later, if ever... Unless they identify all possible kidnappers/burglars with tendencies, pedos on holiday etc and dig up their gardens - either locally or wherever they went home to in driving distance and all the area in between including sea etc - what would prevent them seeing a vulnerable child and doing away with her somewhere? There are a lot of dumping spots, I don't know that heat seeking equipment from the air was used in this case.

- Slightly creepy or over-helpful 'friend of the family' offerring to bath the children and MBM falling in the bath hitting her head and expiring, the death having to be covered up because all of unallowed sedation. Surely that is just a version of later 'accidental death' (see below under more likely)

You don't need creepy friend for MM to have hit her head while bathing - this is as you say a version of accident

- burglar accidentally smothering her whilst looking for loot in 5A? Nonsense. He would have high-tailed out of there in shock, leaving her body behind.

agree

- kidnap for ransome gone wrong? No ransome note. No body.agree although once they saw the level of government help and media attention this could have been plan A that was rapidly switched to getting rid of the child and evidence

- stealing to order for a childless couple? Bonkers idea. Anyway, they would have picked Amelie, a younger and less articulate child. To live where? FGS she was almost FOUR. Unless she was kept in a dungeon, horrid thought, she would say 'My name is Madeleine Mccann. Take me back to my Mummy and Daddy.'

probably they would have gone for the younger child - however as far as maddie knowing/saying who she is, many kids that age and older are taken and with even more ability to call the cops etc do not do so when they have the opportunity - who says just because they know their name and ask for their parents that the kidnapper would then have to release her? You don't need a dungeon - just a secure location for a few months until a child that age accepts this as her new reality and identity, as many kids older than she have done only to be discovered much later

- abduction as part of a hoax. MBM would now be living with distant relatives in Canada or somewhere. In my day it was acceptable for a child, awkward to look after by the parents for some reason, to be brought up by grandparents. The elder brother of the boy and girl living two doors down from us was brought up by his grandparents, and no-one thought anything of it. He sometimes came over to play. He was much older. In this particular case I now suspect he was not a child of the marriage. Maybe it wasn't 'done' for MBM's parents to let another relative bring up Madeleine, and she had to be officially 'stolen away', and as a spin off allowing her parents to save face, and make money into the bargain. This one has just a tiny bit of mileage for me, but only a very little bit.

No. This would have been uncovered and is less likely IMO than any of the above

- abduction by aliens. About as likely as the rest above.

***** More likely- Accident in the flat or possibly in A flat if she was not in 5a at the time and being looked after by A N Other with the other children. I think the accident a bit more likely than banging of the head, is the sort of accidental death suffered by Jimi Hendrix... lying on your back, being sick, and aspirating on the vomit. A tragedy for sure, and manslaughter if non-allowed sedatives had by chance been given... Not that I know if they were.

I agree that if this happened outside their own flat, she must have been carried into 5A, and (I only mean if) and her body would have had to be concealed there, so giving rise to the dogs alerts.

Why would she need to be in another flat or looked after by anyone? The death scent was found in that apt. I think it most likely if her body was there, she died there.

I think ***** so much more simple as an explanation. It fits the facts better than any of the others. Occams razor.

NB. One of the parents, probably Kate, may not know for sure exactly how things happened. I suppose it could be both of them. Others, if they were also involved in sedation for convenience, could have protected them from the details.

I think it it is stretching the use of the term 'abduction' beyond its limits to speak of the 'abduction' of a body from the flat, by arrangement with some contact, acquaintance or friend. Surely this 'removal' would have had to be by someone very close, or tied in to the group in some way, for fear of later disclosure.

,

I think they could have moved the body if there was a body removal, in panic as Pat Brown suggests - then later removal could best be done by someone else as they were under some scrutiny - there is no reason for this to be quite as much of an inside job as we think. there are reasons for others - either family members who do not wish to see the whole family go down in flames - or someone doing it for a fee or other reason

Kristina Prevatt (Booking photo)Kristina Prevatt, an inmate who has been associated with HaLeigh Cummings’ stepmother, Misty Cummings, wrote a letter to her boyfriend claiming a man told authorities that the missing girl died of a drug overdose.

Florida Today News reports the letter alleges a man named Joe told law enforcement that Misty, Prevatt, and a man named Greg were out partying when HaLeigh got into some drugs, ingested them, and died. According to the letter, Joe told authorities HaLeigh’s body was placed in a bag, which was put in Prevatt’s car and driven to a pond.

Last week, Putnam County authorities drained a pond south of Palatka, Fla., but reportedly found no evidence related to HaLeigh’s disappearance.

In the letter, Prevatt denies that she was at the party and says she was at her boyfriend’s home the night the little girl went missing.

Prevatt is in jail on a number of charges including cyber stalking and possession of cocaine.

Putnam County Sheriff’s deputies told Florida Today the letter is not worth a comment.

HaLeigh is 3’ tall and weighs 39 pounds. She has blonde hair and brown eyes.

So the dynamic duo and Clarrie want to prevent SY and PJ from cooperating on the investigation?

The Mirror citing some friend or whoever they got to mouth the words "The pJ aren't helping" clearly feels it's frustrating for the PJ not to be on the same page as SY; however, SY has come out and said they aren't investigating the parents or their friends and it was an abduction, while PJ shelved the case with that possibility still open and may still wish to investigate even things McCanns would prefer they did not.

Anyhow while they can cooperate, for them both to be following up on the same leads (PJ following up on white guy that looks like Gerry; Smith sighting) PJ chasing a dodgy former employee of Ocean club (black guy who took five euro) would be kind of stupid. No point in having two forces at work just on one potential sighting.

TM wants to throw some discredit on the PJ of course - probably proactively in case they should need it later - also, Amaral was part of the PJ which was "up to its tricks" in daring to look at the couple themselves, the timeline, the statements, the dog evidence...

Mitchell, by dint of the nature of his 'work', by his convoluted machinations, by his pompous language and tone, by his self-important press conferences, by his use of the Royal 'we' ... well let's just say that it's easy to despise him, even at a long distance, even without any personal contact.

I recall that I took an instant dislike to him.Well it certainly saves time ......

And another one from Blacksmith:Thursday, 12 December 2013Oscar Nominations in Lisbon

They still have the bundleman efit on their web site... how interesting!

He's not right that Jane did not see a stranger hurrying away from Apt 5a. Well he could be right that she didn't see that but that's not what SY is claiming. they say she DID see it and it wasn't the abductor. There's a difference. Still the vision of the abduction is now laid to rest. You'd think they'd take the efit down. It's hilarious that papers are using that same efit to describe other non abductions that didn't happen in PT. They just look ridiculous and the longer it's up they look like liars.

What will be the third leg kicked out from under... Tanner sighting, and their "exoneration" by the PJ being the first two... I think there will be a third strike. It will be financial. If they lose to Amaral what's their cost?

Which way the tower will fall with the twin supports now gone we don't know, nor what will eventually replace it. It is unlikely but not impossible that now that the McCanns are finally unable to continue their lid-tightening efforts their reputation could actually improve since nothing could look more suspicious than their threats and evasions of the last six years.

That I do think unlikely. Their reputation will not improve if they lose this libel suit.

I don't think McCanns try as they might can buy their reputation back after this.