Many thanks for your great input to the thread on the suttas about sense restraint. Nice to have you and other admirable friends in this forum. Have you gotten a collection of suttas on yoniso monasikara as well? Before practicing sense restraint and 4 establishment of mindfulness, it's even more important to practice right attention/consideration/reflection (where to put our attention and how to attend wisely), since only yoniso manasikara can lead to the abandonment of defilements/purification of mind and right speech/conduct/livelihood.

I've found the following relevant suttas (part 1):

MN2: "The Blessed One said, "Monks, the ending of the fermentations is for one who knows & sees, I tell you, not for one who does not know & does not see. For one who knows what & sees what? Appropriate attention & inappropriate attention. When a monk attends inappropriately, unarisen fermentations arise, and arisen fermentations increase. When a monk attends appropriately, unarisen fermentations do not arise, and arisen fermentations are abandoned. There are fermentations to be abandoned by seeing, those to be abandoned by restraining, those to be abandoned by using, those to be abandoned by tolerating, those to be abandoned by avoiding, those to be abandoned by destroying, and those to be abandoned by developing."

"... He wisely attends: ‘This is suffering'; ‘This is the origin of suffering'; ‘This is the cessation of suffering'; ‘This is the way leading to the cessation of suffering. ...'"

S 45.55/5:31:Dawn, bhikshus, is the forerunner, the harbinger of sun-rise.Even so, bhikshus, for a monk this is the forerunner, the harbinger of the arising of the noble eightfold path, that is, accomplishment in wise attention.Bhikshus, when a monk is accomplished in this wise attention, it is to be expected that he will cultivate the noble eightfold path, develop the noble eightfold path."

Iti 16: "This was said by the Blessed One, said by the Arahant, so I have heard: "With regard to internal factors, I don't envision any other single factor like appropriate attention as doing so much for a monk in training, who has not attained the heart's goal but remains intent on the unsurpassed safety from bondage. A monk who attends appropriately abandons what is unwholesome and develops what is wholesome."

SN 9.11"... From inappropriate attention you're being chewed by your thoughts. Relinquishing what's inappropriate, contemplate appropriately. Keeping your mind on the Teacher, the Dhamma, the Sangha, your virtues, you will arrive at joy, rapture, pleasure without doubt. Then, saturated with joy, you will put an end to suffering & stress."

MN 61:Regarding any verbal/bodily/mental activity, one should reflect whether it's harmful (resulting in suffering) and unwholesome (the ten deeds), before/during/after it:"Whatever action you intend to perform, by body, speech or mind, you should consider that action... If, in considering it, you realize: 'This action which I intend to perform will be harmful to myself, or harmful to others or harmful to both; it will be an unwholesome action, producing suffering, resulting in suffering' — then you should certainly not perform that action.

"Also while you are performing an action, by body, speech or mind, you should consider that action... If, in considering it, you realize: 'This action which I am performing is harmful to myself, or harmful to others or harmful to both; it is an unwholesome action, producing suffering, resulting in suffering' — then you should desist from such an action.

"Also after you have performed an action, by body, speech or mind, you should consider that action... If, in considering it, you realize: 'This action which I have performed has been harmful to myself, or harmful to others, or harmful to both; it was an unwholesome action, producing suffering, resulting in suffering — then you should in the future refrain from it."

“Is it leading to self-affliction [bodily and mental disturbances that are harmful to one's Dhamma practice], to the affliction of others, or to both? Is it an unwholesome activity, with painful consequences, painful results [1) karmic; 2)obstructing panna, causing inner disturbances/turmoils, and leading away from nibbana] ? If, on reflection, you know that it is leading to self-affliction, to the affliction of others, or to both, it is an unwholesome activity with painful consequences, painful results, then any activity of that sort is absolutely inappropriate for you to do. But if, on reflection, you know that it is not leading to self-affliction, to the affliction of others, or to both; it is an wholesome activity with happy consequences, happy results, then any activity of that sort is appropriate for you to do.”

Patisambhidamagga. Treatise I, 409: "Nine ideas rooted in appropriate attention:1) When he give appropriate attention [to an object] as impermanentgladness springs up in him.2) When he is glad, happiness springs up in him.3) When he is happy, his body becomes tranquil.4) When his body is tranquil, he feels pleasure.5) When he has pleasure, his cognizance becomes concentrated.6) When his cognizance is concentrated, he understands correctly 'Thisis suffering'.7) He understands correctly 'This is the origin of suffering.8) He understands correctly 'This is the cessation of suffering'.9) He understands correctly 'This is the way leading to the cessation ofsuffering'.""When he gives appropriate attention [to an object] as painful ... When he givesappropriate attention [to an object] as not self, gladness springs up in him ...He understands correctly 'This is the way leading to the cessation ofsuffering'."

AN 2.125-126:As a condition for right view: voice of another (the Buddha) and right attention.

AN 3.68:As the key to abandoning greed, hatred, delusion.[For one who attends inappropriately to the theme of the attractive / the theme of irritation …, unarisen passion / aversion / delusion arises and arisen passion / aversion / delusion tends to growth & abundance...For one who attends appropriately to the theme of the unattractive / metta as an mind-release / …, unarisen passion / aversion / delusion does not arise and arisen passion is abandoned...]

AN 10.61 Avijja Sutta: "What is the nutrimentfor restraint of the senses?Mindfulness & alertness...And what is the nutriment for mindfulness & alertness?Appropriate attention...And what is the nutriment for appropriate attention? Conviction ..."

SN 46.51. Nutriment: (Un)wise attention in relation to the nutriment and the denourishment of the five hindrances and the seven factors of enlightenment.

SN. 12.10 Nidana-samyutta:In this sutta the Buddha explains how he became enlightened by investigating the cause of aging-and-death via wise attention:"Bhikkhus, before my enlightenment, while I was still a bodhisatta, not yet fully enlightened, it occurred to me: “Alas, this world has fallen into trouble, in that it is born, ages, and dies, it passes away and is reborn, yet it does not understand the escape from this suffering led by aging-and-death. When will an escape be discerned from this suffering led by aging-and-death?" Then, bhikkhus, it occurred to me: “When what exists does aging-and-death come to be? By what is aging-and-death conditioned?" Then, bhikkhus, through wise attention, there took place in me a breakthrough by wisdom: “Whenthere is birth, aging-and-death comes to be; aging-and-death has birth as its condition.¨

Metta to all,

Starter

Last edited by starter on Wed Sep 24, 2014 12:57 am, edited 8 times in total.

Wise attention (yoniso manasikāra) is glossed as attention that is the right means (upāya), on the right track (patha). It is explained as mental advertence, consideration, or preoccupation that accords with the truth, namely, attention to the impermanent as impermanent, etc.

Unwise attention (ayoniso manasikāra) is attention that is the wrong means, on the wrong track (uppatha), contrary to the truth, namely, attention to the impermanent as permanent, the painful as pleasurable, what is not self as self, and what is foul as beautiful. Unwise attention, MA informs us, is at the root of the round of existence, for it causes ignorance and craving to increase; wise attention is at the root of liberation from the round, since it leads to the development of the Noble Eightfold Path. MA sums up the point of this passage thus: the destruction of the taints is for one who knows how to arouse wise attention and who sees to it that unwise attention does not arise.

MA makes the important point that there is no fixed determination in things themselves as to whether they are fit or unfit for attention. The distinction consists, rather, in the mode of attention. That mode of attention that is a causal basis for unwholesome states of mind should be avoided, while that mode of attention that is a causal basis for wholesome states should be developed.

Thanks for the helpful input. Just to add the following to yoniso manasikara:

1) The Buddha said: 'Living beings may perform ten wholesome deeds or ten evil deeds. What are the ten? Three are of the body, four are of the mouth, and three are of the mind. The three of the body are killing, stealing, and sexual misconduct. The four of the mouth are ill-intentioned malicious speech [creating discord], harsh speech [hurtful and causing pain to others, censorious of others, bordering on anger and unconducive to Samadhi], lies ["in full awareness he speaks falsehood for his own ends or for another's ends or for some trifling worldly end"], and gossips [unseasonable, not fact, not good, not the Dhamma and not connected with the goal of holly life]. The three of the mind are covetous, hatred/ill will, and wrong views [of karma]. Thus these ten are not in accord with the Holy Way and are called ten evil practices. To put a stop to these evils is to perform the ten good practices.' (S42?, also MN 41, MN136)

MN 41:

The Blessed One said this:

"Householders, there are three kinds of bodily conduct not in accordance with the Dhamma, unrighteous conduct. There are four kinds of verbal conduct not in accordance with the Dhamma, unrighteous conduct. There are three kinds of mental conduct not in accordance with the Dhamma, unrighteous conduct.

"And how are there three kinds of bodily conduct not in accordance with the Dhamma, unrighteous conduct? Here someone is a killer of living beings: he is murderous, bloody-handed, given to blows and violence, and merciless to all living beings. He is a taker of what is not given: he takes as a thief another's chattels and property in the village or in the forest. He is given over to misconduct in sexual desires: he has intercourse with such (women) as are protected by the mother, father, (mother and father), brother, sister, relatives, as have a husband, as entail a penalty, and also with those that are garlanded in token of betrothal. That is how there are three kinds of bodily conduct not in accordance with the Dhamma, unrighteous conduct.

"And how are there four kinds of verbal conduct not in accordance with the Dhamma, unrighteous conduct? Here someone speaks falsehood: when summoned to a court or to a meeting, or to his relatives' presence, or to his guild, or to the royal family's presence, and questioned as a witness thus, 'So, good man, tell what you know,' then, not knowing, he says 'I know,' or knowing, he says 'I do not know,' not seeing, he says 'I see,' or seeing, he says 'I do not see'; in full awareness he speaks falsehood for his own ends or for another's ends or for some trifling worldly end. He speaks maliciously: he is a repeater elsewhere of what is heard here for the purpose of causing division from these, or he is a repeater to these of what is heard elsewhere for the purpose of causing division from those, and he is thus a divider of the united, a creator of divisions, who enjoys discord, rejoices in discord, delights in discord, he is a speaker of words that create discord. He speaks harshly: he utters such words as are rough, hard, hurtful to others, censorious of others, bordering on anger and unconducive to concentration. He is a gossip: as one who tells that which is unseasonable, that which is not fact, that which is not good, that which is not the Dhamma, that which is not the Discipline, and he speaks out of season speech not worth recording, which is unreasoned, indefinite, and unconnected with good. That is how there are four kinds of verbal conduct not in accordance with the Dhamma, unrighteous conduct.

"And how are there three kinds of mental conduct not in accordance with the Dhamma, unrighteous conduct? Here someone is covetous: he is a coveter of another's chattels and property thus: 'Oh, that what is another's were mine!' Or he has a mind of ill-will, with the intention of a mind affected by hate thus: 'May these beings be slain and slaughtered, may they be cut off, perish, or be annihilated!' Or he has wrong view, distorted vision, thus: 'There is nothing given, nothing offered, nothing sacrificed, no fruit and ripening of good and bad kammas, no this world, no other world, no mother, no father, no spontaneously (born) beings,[1] no good and virtuous monks and brahmans that have themselves realized by direct knowledge and declare this world and the other world.'[2] That is how there are three kinds of mental conduct not in accordance with the Dhamma, unrighteous conduct.

"Householders, there are three kinds of bodily conduct in accordance with the Dhamma, righteous conduct. There are four kinds of verbal conduct in accordance with the Dhamma, righteous conduct. There are three kinds of mental conduct in accordance with the Dhamma, righteous conduct.

"And how are there three kinds of bodily conduct in accordance with the Dhamma, righteous conduct? Here someone, abandoning the killing of living beings, becomes one who abstains from killing living beings; with rod and weapon laid aside, gentle and kindly, he abides compassionate to all living beings. Abandoning the taking of what is not given, he becomes one who abstains from taking what is not given; he does not take as a thief another's chattels and property in the village or in the forest. Abandoning misconduct in sexual desires, he becomes one who abstains from misconduct in sexual desires: he does not have intercourse with such women as are protected by mother, father, (father and mother), brother, sister, relatives, as have a husband, as entail a penalty, and also those that are garlanded in token of betrothal. That is how there are three kinds of bodily conduct in accordance with the Dhamma, righteous conduct.

"And how are there four of verbal conduct in accordance with the Dhamma, righteous conduct? Here someone, abandoning false speech, becomes one who abstains from false speech: when summoned to a court or to a meeting or to his relatives' presence or to his guild or to the royal family's presence, and questioned as a witness thus, 'So, good man, tell what you know,' not knowing, he says 'I do not know,' or knowing, he says 'I know,' not seeing he says 'I do not see,' or seeing, he says 'I see'; he does not in full awareness speak falsehood for his own ends or for another's ends or for some trifling worldly end. Abandoning malicious speech, he becomes one who abstains from malicious speech: as one who is neither a repeater elsewhere of what is heard here for the purpose of causing division from these, nor a repeater to these of what is heard elsewhere for the purpose of causing division from those, who is thus a reuniter of the divided, a promoter of friendships, enjoying concord, rejoicing in concord, delighting in concord, he becomes a speaker of words that promote concord. Abandoning harsh speech, he becomes one who abstains from harsh speech: he becomes a speaker of such words as are innocent, pleasing to the ear and lovable, as go to the heart, are civil, desired of many and dear to many.Abandoning gossip, he becomes one who abstains from gossip: as one who tells that which is seasonable, that which is factual, that which is good, that which is the Dhamma, that which is the Discipline, he speaks in season speech worth recording, which is reasoned, definite and connected with good. That is how there are four kinds of verbal conduct in accordance with the Dhamma, righteous conduct.

"And how are there three kinds of mental conduct in accordance with the Dhamma, righteous conduct? Here someone is not covetous: he is not a coveter of another's chattels and property thus: 'Oh, that what is another's were mine!' He has no mind of ill-will, with the intention of a mind unaffected by hate thus: 'May these beings be free from enmity, affliction and anxiety, may they live happily!'He has right view, undistorted vision, thus: 'There is what is given and what is offered and what is sacrificed, and there is fruit and ripening of good and bad kammas, and there is this world and the other world and mother and father and spontaneously (born) beings, and good and virtuous monks and brahmans that have themselves realized by direct knowledge and declared this world and the other world.' That is how there are three kinds of mental conduct in accordance with the Dhamma, righteous conduct.

2) According to Anagatasutta,32 the Buddha had warned the monks to prepare now for the attainment of Nibbana by thinking wisely about various dangers in the future, such as death (this could be my last breath -- do all these worldly things matter?), old age, bad health, food shortages, disunity among people, Sangha in conflict, etc. Then they should warn themselves to practice for attaining Nibbana in the present time.

3) assada – adinava – nisarana: allure –drawback - escape

I'd like to start practicing yoniso manasikara on the ten wholesome/unwholesome deeds in combination with daily reflection on verbal/bodily/mental activity to perfect the sila aggregate, otherwise too much to pay attention to at once. First distinguish what’s wholesome/beneficial and what’s unwholesome/unbeneficial (not only to myself but also to others), and do so before/during/after mental/verbal/ bodily conducts; distinguish what’s right attention and what’s wrong attention, arouse/develop right attention and avoid/abandon wrong attention (before abandoning reflecting upon how such wrong attention, unwholesome/unbenefical verbal/bodily/mental conducts arise and cease).

As to Dymtro's suggestion on keeping somewhere a list of such comprehensive threads (not only mine), I'd suggest that the site administrators might consider selecting such threads and putting them together under a title (e.g. Recommended Threads on Noble 8-fold Path).

Metta to all,

Starter

Last edited by starter on Fri Sep 21, 2012 12:31 am, edited 4 times in total.

I actually copied the "S42.14" teaching from somewhere before (and don't have the source anymore), and was also wondering why I couldn't find SN42.14 yesterday. It's better to read the more detailed teachings on the 10 forms of right conduct in MN 41and MN136, probably also the Gamanisamyutta you mentioned.

One thing I did notice after checking MN 41and MN136 is that "idle chatter" or "pointless speech" is not really a good translation of the 4th verbal misconduct. "Gossip" is better, to cover the broad meaning of unseasonable, nonfactual, not good, not connected with the Dhamma and the goal. I've learned it's really important to check the suttas (better a collection of suttas on the same topic for comparison) for our understanding of the teachings.

The Blessed One said this: "A monk should investigate in such a way that, his consciousness neither externally scattered & diffused, nor internally positioned, he would from lack of clinging/sustenance be unagitated. When — his consciousness neither externally scattered & diffused, nor internally positioned — from lack of clinging/sustenance he would be unagitated, there is no seed for the conditions of future birth, aging, death, or stress."

Many thanks for sharing with us the helpful sutta. I'm citing the following from MN 138 to avoid possible misunderstandings of the above-cited paragraph (if not reading the sutta):

"How is consciousness said to be scattered & diffused? There is the case where a form is seen with the eye (ear, nose, tongue, body, mind faculty …), and consciousness follows the drift of (lit.: 'flows after') the theme of the form, is tied to the attraction (or repulsion) of the theme of the form (...), is chained to the attraction (or repulsion) of the theme of the form, is fettered & joined to the attraction (or repulsion) of the theme of the form: Consciousness is said to be externally scattered & diffused."And how is the mind said to be internally positioned? There is the case where a monk, quite withdrawn from sensuality, withdrawn from unskillful (mental) qualities, enters & remains in the first (second, …) jhana: rapture & pleasure born from withdrawal, accompanied by directed thought & evaluation. His consciousness follows the drift of the rapture & pleasure born of withdrawal, is tied to... chained... fettered, & joined to the attraction of the rapture & pleasure born of withdrawal.

"And how is agitation caused by clinging/sustenance? There is the case where an uninstructed, run-of-the-mill person — who has no regard for noble ones, is not well-versed or disciplined in their Dhamma; who has no regard for men of integrity, is not well-versed or disciplined in their Dhamma — assumes form (…) to be the self, or the self as possessing form, or form as in the self, or the self as in form. His form changes & is unstable. Because of the change & instability of form, his consciousness alters in accordance with the change in form. With the agitations born from the alteration in accordance with the change in form and coming from the co-arising of (unskillful mental) qualities, his mind stays consumed. And because of the consumption of awareness, he feels fearful, threatened, & solicitous.

Metta to all,

Starter

Last edited by starter on Thu Mar 22, 2012 1:29 pm, edited 1 time in total.

While reading the English translations of MN61, I was wondering about the meaning and relevance of the simile of royal elephant. After reading the Chinese translation of the Pali sutta MN 61 [http://agama.buddhason.org/MA/MA014.htm], I think I really understand the point of this teaching: "when anyone feels no shame in telling a deliberate lie, there is no evil, I tell you, he will not do." Just like the elephant, trained by the trainer (~mara), at first it's still able to protect his trunk (~a practitioner's sila), but eventually "There is nothing it will not do". The serious of the following similes is illustrating this same point of teaching:

"little bit of left-over water remaining in the water dipper" --- "how this little bit of left-over water is tossed away" --- "how this water dipper is turned upside down" --- "how empty & hollow this water dipper is"

These similes enable me to really understand how dangerous it is to tell a deliberate lie and to feel no shame in telling a deliberate lie [in the long run]. I almost thought these similes are not so important if I don't really understand them. I'm glad that I've checked the Chinese translation for a better understanding instead of neglecting them.

Metta to all,

Starter

Last edited by starter on Mon Jul 16, 2012 3:33 pm, edited 1 time in total.

"A virtuous monk, Kotthita my friend, should attend in an appropriate way to the five clinging-aggregates as inconstant, stressful, a disease, a cancer, an arrow, painful, an affliction, alien, a dissolution, an emptiness, not-self. Which five? Form as a clinging-aggregate, feeling... perception... fabrications... consciousness as a clinging-aggregate. A virtuous monk should attend in an appropriate way to these five clinging-aggregates as inconstant, stressful, a disease, a cancer, an arrow, painful, an affliction, alien, a dissolution, an emptiness, not-self. For it is possible that a virtuous monk, attending in an appropriate way to these five clinging-aggregates as inconstant... not-self, would realize the fruit of stream-entry."

"Then which things should a monk who has attained stream-entry attend to in an appropriate way?"

"A monk who has attained stream-entry should attend in an appropriate way to these five clinging-aggregates as inconstant, stressful, a disease, a cancer, an arrow, painful, an affliction, alien, a dissolution, an emptiness, not-self. For it is possible that a monk who has attained stream-entry, attending in an appropriate way to these five clinging-aggregates as inconstant... not-self, would realize the fruit of once-returning."

"Then which things should a monk who has attained once-returning attend to in an appropriate way?"

"A monk who has attained once-returning should attend in an appropriate way to these five clinging-aggregates as inconstant, stressful, a disease, a cancer, an arrow, painful, an affliction, alien, a dissolution, an emptiness, not-self. For it is possible that a monk who has attained once-returning, attending in an appropriate way to these five clinging-aggregates as inconstant... not-self, would realize the fruit of non-returning."

"Then which things should a monk who has attained non-returning attend to in an appropriate way?"

"A monk who has attained non-returning should attend in an appropriate way to these five clinging-aggregates as inconstant, stressful, a disease, a cancer, an arrow, painful, an affliction, alien, a dissolution, an emptiness, not-self. For it is possible that a monk who has attained non-returning, attending in an appropriate way to these five clinging-aggregates as inconstant... not-self, would realize the fruit of arahantship."

"Then which things should an arahant attend to in an appropriate way?"

"An arahant should attend in an appropriate way to these five clinging-aggregates as inconstant, stressful, a disease, a cancer, an arrow, painful, an affliction, alien, a dissolution, an emptiness, not-self. Although, for an arahant, there is nothing further to do, and nothing to add to what has been done, still these things — when developed & pursued — lead both to a pleasant abiding in the here-&-now and to mindfulness & alertness."

In this helpful study guide, yoniso manasikara is summarized as the following:

* "... seeing things in terms of cause and effect — both to what you have heard and to your experiences in general";

* "... essentially the ability to frame your understanding of experience in the right terms. In many cases, this means framing the right questions for gaining insight into suffering and its end (see MN 2 for the wrong and right questions)." And additional right questions:"This is the way leading to discernment: when visiting a contemplative or brahman, to ask: 'What is skillful, venerable sir? What is unskillful? What is blameworthy? What is blameless? What should be cultivated? What should not be cultivated? What, having been done by me, will be for my long-term harm & suffering? Or what, having been done by me, will be for my long-term welfare & happiness?'"— MN 135

* "... framing the way you understand events as they occur." (perceiving the five clinging aggregates as anicca, dukkha and anatta).

I'd like to add that while we apply yoniso manasikaraga to gain right understanding/view, it's essential that we also apply yoniso manasikara to our daily practice. I don't think in SN 22.122 Ven. Sariputta meant that by attending in an appropriate way to the five clinging-aggregates as anicca/dukkha/anatta alone can make one all the way to stream entry ... arahantship.

As I understand, in most suttas the eight-fold path has right mental/verbal/bodily conduct (the sila aggregate) before full awareness and clear comprehension (or translated as "mindfulness and alertness" as follows) & sense restraint. It's strange that in the following sutta full awareness and clear comprehension & sense restraint, which belong to the Samadhi aggregate, are placed ahead of right conduct:

"Now, I tell you, clear knowing & release have their nutriment. They are not without nutriment. And what is their nutriment? The seven factors for awakening... And what is the nutriment for the seven factors for awakening? The four establishings of mindfulness... And what is the nutriment for the four establishings of mindfulness? The three forms of right conduct... And what is the nutriment for the three forms of right conduct? Restraint of the senses... And what is the nutriment for restraint of the senses? Mindfulness & alertness... And what is the nutriment for mindfulness & alertness? Appropriate attention... And what is the nutriment for appropriate attention? Conviction... And what is the nutriment for conviction? Hearing the true Dhamma... And what is the nutriment for hearing the true Dhamma? Associating with people who are truly good..." — AN 10.61

This explains why Ajahn Geoff emphasizes establishing concentration and a body center as the beginning step of the practice, as the advice given to a beginner like me about 1.5 year ago.

Are there any other suttas in which full awareness and clear comprehension & sense restraint are placed ahead of right conduct?

starter wrote:"Now, I tell you, clear knowing & release have their nutriment. They are not without nutriment. And what is their nutriment? The seven factors for awakening... And what is the nutriment for the seven factors for awakening? The four establishings of mindfulness... And what is the nutriment for the four establishings of mindfulness? The three forms of right conduct... And what is the nutriment for the three forms of right conduct? Restraint of the senses... And what is the nutriment for restraint of the senses? Mindfulness & alertness... And what is the nutriment for mindfulness & alertness? Appropriate attention... And what is the nutriment for appropriate attention? Conviction... And what is the nutriment for conviction? Hearing the true Dhamma... And what is the nutriment for hearing the true Dhamma? Associating with people who are truly good..." — AN 10.61

Please note here the 'three modes of right conduct'. The precepts are about bodily and verbal conduct - that's the first stage. Restraint of the senses makes it possible to make skillful the mental conduct.

Thanks for your helpful message. I tend to think within the 8-fold path (see my tentative sketch below), "Right intention" is the first level of right mental conduct, which leads to the first level of "Right effort" -- yoniso manasikara and consequently right verbal and bodily conducts (the suppression of conduct-level defilements); the second level of "Right effort" (including sense restraint, wakefulness, full awareness/clear comprehension) and 4 establishings of mindfulness lead to the second level of right mental conduct -- suppression of 5 hindrances (thought-level defilements); the third level of "Right effort" as an enlightenment factor leads to "Noble right Samadhi" (jhanas) and Noble right knowledge for liberation (irradication of root level defilements: ignorance/greed/aversion).

While I agree before practicing 4 establishings of mindfulness, the gross conduct-level defilements should be suppressed and the thought-level defilements (5 hindrances) should be suppressed to a degree via sense restraint, wakefulness and full awareness/clear comprehension, I'm not sure if the sequence in AN 10.61(full awareness/clear comprehension → sense restraint → verbal/bodily/mental conducts → 4 establishings of mindfulness ...) might be mixed up at some point of history. As I understand, most suttas teach us to practice right intention/speech/conduct before practicing full awareness/clear comprehension, and also practice sense restraint before practicing full awareness/clear comprehension).

Your and other friends' help has been greatly appreciated. Metta to all,

Starter

PS: my sketch of 8-fold path --Learn the Buddha's teaching while having admirable teachers/friends:→ Right view of the law of karma to start the mundane 8-fold path → Sense of fear and shame→ Right intention [striving for non-covetousness, non-ill will, non-harming] → Right attention (striving for yoniso manasikara)→ Right speech [striving for no deliberate, deceitful, false, malicious, harsh speech and no gossiping]→ Right conduct [striving for no killing / stealing /sexual misconduct]→ Right livelihood [striving for wholesome, beneficial livelihood; contentment]→ Right effort [striving for 1) Sense restraint, in particular moderation in eating; 2) Wakefulness -- watching and cleaning the obstructive mental states - 5 hindrances; 3) Full awareness and clear comprehension]→ Right mindfulness [the 4 establishments of mindfulness: body/feeling/mind/Dhammas]→ Right Samādhi [establishment of Samadhi -- suppression of 5 hindrances]→ Noble right view of the 4 Noble Truths (which is not to be obtained by only studying the teachings), and enter the Noble 8-fold path:→ Noble right intention [culmination of non-greed, non-aversion, non-delusion] → Right attention (culmination of yoniso manasikara)→ Noble right speech [culmination of no un-wholesome/un-beneficial speech]→ Noble Right conduct [culmination of no killing / stealing /sexual misconduct]→ Noble right livelihood [culmination of wholesome, beneficial livelihood and contentment]→ Noble right effort [culmination of sense restraint, wakefulness, full awareness and clear comprehension]→ Noble right mindfulness [culmination of the 4 mindfulness]→ Noble right Samādhi [the 4 jhanas]→ Noble right knowledge for liberation: know/see things as they truly are without delusion and attachments -- the 5 aggregates/6 sense objects are all anicca/dukkha/anatta.→ Noble right liberation [from Samsara, from five aggregates]: nibbana.

Hi, I've just checked the equivalent Chinese suttas and the sequence in AN 10.61(mindfulness/full awareness & thorough/clear comprehension → sense restraint → verbal/bodily/mental conducts → 4 establishings of mindfulness ...) is correct. Mindfulness/full awareness & thorough/clear comprehension (Satisampajañña) and sense restraint should be practiced at the beginning stage and will lead to the 3 right conducts, but after practicing Yonisomanasikāro.

The path can be summarized in stages, but at the same time, it's very much individual. We see what happens, and practice in accordance to this, removing these or that hindrances, developing these or that factors.

Thanks for the helpful input. Also thanks to retrofuturist for bring MN 19 into my attention (viewtopic.php?f=33&t=12519&view=unread#unread), which is a very important sutta about the practice of yoniso manasikara. As I understand, in MN 19, the Buddha clearly taught us how to cultivate right intention by examining if our thoughts fall into the three unwholesome and unbeneficial ones:

MN 19: Dvedhavitakka Suttahttp://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.htmlThe Blessed One said, "Monks, before my self-awakening, when I was still just an unawakened Bodhisatta, the thought occurred to me: 'Why don't I keep dividing my thinking into two sorts?' So I made thinking imbued with sensual desire (欲念), thinking imbued with ill will (恚念), & thinking imbued with harmfulness (害念) one sort, and thinking imbued with renunciation (無欲念), thinking imbued with non-ill will (無恚念), & thinking imbued with harmlessness (無害念) another sort.

And as I remained thus heedful, ardent, & resolute, thinking imbued with sensuality [ill will, harmfulness] arose in me. I discerned that 'Thinking imbued with sensuality has arisen in me; and that leads to my own affliction or to the affliction of others or to the affliction of both. It obstructs discernment, promotes vexation, & does not lead to Unbinding.'

As I noticed that it leads to my own affliction, it subsided. As I noticed that it leads to the affliction of others... to the affliction of both... it obstructs discernment, promotes vexation, & does not lead to Unbinding, it subsided. Whenever thinking imbued with sensuality [ill will, harmfulness] had arisen, I simply abandoned it, destroyed it, dispelled it, wiped it out of existence....Whatever a monk keeps pursuing with his thinking & pondering, that becomes the inclination of his awareness. If a monk keeps pursuing thinking imbued with sensuality [ill will, harmfulness], abandoning thinking imbued with renunciation [non-ill will, harmlessness] his mind is bent by that thinking imbued with sensuality ..."

After reading the Chinese equivalent of MN 19, MA 102, it seems to me that the sensuality (sensual desire/cravings) in this sutta meant passion/delight and cravings for the pleasure of five senses ("大泉水者。謂是五欲愛念歡樂。云何為五。眼知色．耳知聲．鼻知香．舌知味．身知觸"), which is a bit different form covetousness/unrighteous greed as one of the ten unwholesome/evil deeds. So the cultivation of right intention as the 2nd fold of the 8-fold path is not only about non-covetousness/non-unrighteous greed, but more about guarding the sense doors (renunciation from sensual pleasures), which is in agreement with the sequence in AN 10.61.

I've revised the sequence of the 8-fold path as follows: Learn the Buddha's teaching while having admirable teachers/friends:→ Right view of the law of karma to start the mundane 8-fold path → Sense of fear and shame, and Faith in the Buddha → Right attention (striving for yoniso manasikara)→ Right intention [striving for renunciation from sensual cravings /subdue desires for sensual pleasures, non-ill will, non-harming] → Right speech [striving for no deliberate, deceitful, false, malicious, harsh speech and no gossiping]→ Right conduct [striving for no killing / stealing /sexual misconduct]→ Right livelihood [striving for wholesome, beneficial livelihood; contentment]→ Right effort [striving for 1) Sense restraint, in particular moderation in eating; 2) Wakefulness -- watching and cleaning the obstructive mental states - 5 hindrances; 3) Mindfulness/full awareness and right/clear comprehension]→ Right mindfulness [the 4 establishings of mindfulness: body/feeling/mind/Dhammas]→ Right Samādhi [establishment of Samadhi -- suppression of 5 hindrances]→ Noble Right view of the 4 Noble Truths (which is not to be obtained by only studying the teachings), unshakable Faith, and enter the Noble 8-fold path: → Right attention (culmination of yoniso manasikara)→ Noble Right intention [culmination of non-greed, non-aversion, non-delusion] → Noble Right speech [culmination of no un-wholesome/un-beneficial speech]→ Noble Right conduct [culmination of no killing / stealing /sexual misconduct]→ Noble right livelihood [culmination of wholesome, beneficial livelihood and contentment]→ Noble right effort [culmination of sense restraint, wakefulness, mindfulness/full awareness and right/clear comprehension]→ Noble right mindfulness [culmination of the 4 mindfulness]→ Noble right Samādhi [the 4 jhanas]→ Noble right knowledge for liberation: know/see things as they truly are without delusion and attachments -- the 5 aggregates/6 sense objects are all anicca/dukkha/anatta.→ Noble right liberation [from Samsara, from five aggregates]: nibbana.

Your comments and correstions are always welcome and appreciated. Thanks and metta,

Starter

Last edited by starter on Wed May 30, 2012 12:31 am, edited 1 time in total.

After listening to MN8 this morning, it occurred to me that the Buddha has actually taught us the sequence of effacement/practice:

1) Striving for the effacement of 10 unwholesome deeds for the mundane practice2) Perfection of the Noble-8-factored path for the supramundane practice

So my former model about the mundane 8-fold path should be revised:

Learn the Buddha's teaching while having admirable teachers/friends:→ Right view of the law of karma to start the mundane 8-fold path → Sense of fear and shame, and Faith in the Buddha → Right attention (striving for yoniso manasikara) in all the following:→ Right intention/thoughts [striving for non-covetousness (not covet for others' material or immaterial possession that are not entitled to oneself -- not harm others), non-ill will, non-harming]→ Right speech [striving for no deliberate false, malicious, harsh speech and no gossiping]→ Right conduct [striving for no killing /no stealing /no sexual misconduct]→ Right livelihood [striving for a non-harming livelihood]→ Right effort [establishing four exertions/strivings]→ Right mindfulness [establishing the 4 mindfulness]→ Right Samādhi [establishing Samadhi]→ Noble Right view of the 4 Noble Truths (which is not to be obtained by only studying the teachings), unshakable Faith, enter the Noble 8-fold path, and apply Right attention (culmination of yoniso manasikara) in all the following: → Noble Right intention/thoughts [culmination of non-sensuality, non-ill will, non-harming]→ Noble Right speech [culmination of no un-wholesome/un-beneficial speech]→ Noble Right conduct [culmination of no killing / stealing /sexual misconduct]→ Noble Right livelihood [culmination of wholesome, beneficial livelihood and contentment]→ Noble Right effort [culmination of sense restraint, wakefulness, mindfulness/full awareness and right/clear comprehension]→ Noble Right mindfulness [culmination of the 4 mindfulness]→ Noble Right Samādhi [the 4 jhanas]

→ Noble Right knowledge for liberation: know/see things as they truly are without delusion and attachments -- the 5 aggregates/6 sense objects are all anicca/dukkha/anatta.→ Noble Right liberation [from Samsara, from five aggregates]: nibbana.

I'd like to bring it to the attention of the friends who might read this thread that the "model" of the path postulated in my above old post contains errors. For my updated understanding of the path please read:

I resume this thread after listening to MN 2, because I've realized that yoniso manasikara is the first element of Right Effort. Right effort should be applied to every step of the practice, with yoniso manasikara as the forerunner.

starter wrote:MN2: "The Blessed One said, "Monks, the ending of the fermentations is for one who knows & sees, I tell you, not for one who does not know & does not see. For one who knows what & sees what? Appropriate attention & inappropriate attention. When a monk attends inappropriately, unarisen fermentations arise, and arisen fermentations increase. When a monk attends appropriately, unarisen fermentations do not arise, and arisen fermentations are abandoned. There are fermentations to be abandoned by seeing, those to be abandoned by restraining, those to be abandoned by using, those to be abandoned by tolerating, those to be abandoned by avoiding, those to be abandoned by destroying, and those to be abandoned by developing."

"... He wisely attends: ‘This is suffering'; ‘This is the origin of suffering'; ‘This is the cessation of suffering'; ‘This is the way leading to the cessation of suffering. ...'"

Greetings!

It appears to me that the above highlighted example of yoniso manasikara (attending to the 4NT) is for the noble disciples (stream winners and above). For the others, the law of karma should probably be attended to first. It's easy to assume that we've comprehended the law of karma and have established the mundane right view, and that we have applied yoniso manasikara in our practice. But if we ought to be honest with ourselves, have we really gotten the sense of fear for our wrong doings, as we fear our unpaid or late paid mortgages/credit card debts? If the fear and shame* for our wrong doings is not yet established, and we have not yet removed the "gross sands" (the ten unwholesome deeds), then we haven't truly mastered the law of karma and haven't applied it successfully enough to guide our sila practice. Then we probably still need to apply yoniso manasikara to the law of karma, and recite the following diligently:

'There is what is given, what is offered, what is sacrificed. There are fruits & results of good & bad actions. There is this world & the next world. There is mother & father. There are spontaneously reborn beings; there are brahmans & contemplatives who, faring rightly & practicing rightly, proclaim this world & the next after having directly known & realized it for themselves.' [From MN 117]

"I am the owner of my kamma/actions, heir to my kamma/actions, born of my kamma/actions, related through my kamma/actions, and have my kamma/actions as my arbitrator. Whatever I do, for good or for evil, to that will I fall heir."[From AN 5.57 Upajjhatthana Sutta: Subjects for Contemplation]

Those in whom shame and fear of wrong, Are not consistently found, Have deviated from the bright root,And are led back to birth and death.

Thus have I heard. On one occasion the Blessed One was dwelling at Savatthī in Jeta’s Grove, Anathapiṇḍika’s Park. There the Blessed One addressed the bhikkhus thus: “Bhikkhus!”

“Venerable sir!” those bhikkhus replied. The Blessed One said this:

“Bhikkhus, ignorance is the forerunner in the entry upon unwholesome states, with shamelessness and fearlessness of wrongdoing following along. For an unwise person immersed in ignorance, wrong view springs up. For one of wrong view, wrong intention springs up. For one of wrong intention, wrong speech springs up. For one of wrong speech, wrong action springs up. For one of wrong action, wrong livelihood springs up. For one of wrong livelihood, wrong effort springs up. For one of wrong effort, wrong mindfulness springs up. For one of wrong mindfulness, wrong concentration springs up.

“Bhikkhus, true knowledge is the forerunner in the entry upon wholesome states, with a sense of shame and fear of wrongdoing following along. For a wise person who has arrived at true knowledge, right view springs up. For one of right view, right intention springs up. For one of right intention, right speech springs up. For one of right speech, right action springs up. For one of right action, right livelihood springs up. For one of right livelihood, right effort springs up. For one of right effort, right mindfulness springs up. For one of right mindfulness, right concentration springs up.”