Originally posted by quanchi112 There was good in him and he chose to kill the emperors over his son. He came back to the light.

Kylo wasn't delusional like Vader who was in denial. Ben admitted it was wrong but that didn't stop him from killing that worthless bastard, Han Solo. Kylo isn't a traitor like Vader turned out to be in the end.

vader wasnt in denial. everyone thought that it was impossible to turn back from the dark side, from yoda to palapatine. it wasn't until RotJ that vader made that apparent.

also, vader had selfish motives for keeping luke alive. vader planned on making luke his sith apprentice and betraying the emperor. he said so.

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Your Lord knows very well what is in your heart. Your soul suffices this day as a reckoner against you. I need no witnesses. You do not listen to your soul, but listen instead to your anger and your rage.

Originally posted by Bashar Teg vader wasnt in denial. everyone thought that it was impossible to turn back from the dark side, from yoda to palapatine. it wasn't until RotJ that vader made that apparent.

also, vader had selfish motives for keeping luke alive. vader planned on making luke his sith apprentice and betraying the emperor. he said so.

In Rotj Vader said to Luke, "There is no conflict." Even in the movie you referred he was in denial. Luke felt it and Vader conceded he was right about him.

At the end he did so in a self sacrificial manner. He ended up dying and went back to his Jedi persona as the force ghost. He was weak in the end. Kylo was strong.

Originally posted by quanchi112 In Rotj Vader said to Luke, "There is no conflict." Even in the movie you referred he was in denial. Luke felt it and Vader conceded he was right about him.

At the end he did so in a self sacrificial manner. He ended up dying and went back to his Jedi persona as the force ghost. He was weak in the end. Kylo was strong.

at the time, luke was the equivalent of a tin-foil-hat conspiracy theorist for even suggesting that a sith could be redeemed. yoda and ben were both like "lol no gtfo" when luke suggested the possibility.

at the moment he attacked palpatine, he was no longer a sith. so therefore vader never betrayed the emperor. vader was destroyed by anakin and anakin killed the emperor.

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Your Lord knows very well what is in your heart. Your soul suffices this day as a reckoner against you. I need no witnesses. You do not listen to your soul, but listen instead to your anger and your rage.

Originally posted by Bashar Teg at the time, luke was the equivalent of a tin-foil-hat conspiracy theorist for even suggesting that a sith could be redeemed. yoda and ben were both like "lol no gtfo" when luke suggested the possibility.

at the moment he attacked palpatine, he was no longer a sith. so therefore vader never betrayed the emperor. vader was destroyed by anakin and anakin killed the emperor.

So in the end Luke was right about Vader who was delusional.

Symbolically but the point is simple. Kylo has stated the to his dark side ideals whereas Anakin abandoned them. Kylo is more evil since you even admit Anakin destroyed Vader. The same can't be said for Ben Solo who resisted the pull the of the light.

Originally posted by quanchi112 So in the end Luke was right about Vader who was delusional.

Symbolically but the point is simple. Kylo has stated the to his dark side ideals whereas Anakin abandoned them. Kylo is more evil since you even admit Anakin destroyed Vader. The same can't be said for Ben Solo who resisted the pull the of the light.

you can't be delusional over something if you have no knowledge of it in the first place.

my point was that the reason ben knew it was possible to turn away from the dark side was because of vader. in the novelization dialogue, this is touched on more. vader had no prior knowledge that this was possible, nor did anyone. that's not denial, that's just widespread ignorance since nobody ever saw it happen. so vader was blindsided whereas kylo had a historical reference: vader.

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Your Lord knows very well what is in your heart. Your soul suffices this day as a reckoner against you. I need no witnesses. You do not listen to your soul, but listen instead to your anger and your rage.

Originally posted by Bashar Teg you can't be delusional over something if you have no knowledge of it in the first place.

my point was that the reason ben knew it was possible to turn away from the dark side was because of vader. in the novelization dialogue, this is touched on more. vader had no prior knowledge that this was possible, nor did anyone. that's not denial, that's just widespread ignorance since nobody ever saw it happen. so vader was blindsided whereas kylo had a historical reference: vader.

Luke sensed the conflict which was taking place Vader was too delusional to acknowledge it. It's all in the film.

Ben might have Vader as an historical reference but he had to deal with his own feelings just as Anakin had to deal with his own. Vader was a confused dolt to the bitter end. He flip flopped a few times and it's only fitting he was ignorant to his own inner conflict even his own damn son senses that he didn't. Luke sensed it would happen so you saying no one saw it coming is false. Vader even concedes you were right as he dies.

A delusion is a false belief that is based on an incorrect interpretation of reality. A person with delusional disorder will firmly hold on to a false belief despite clear evidence to the contrary. The definition fits Vader to a T.

Originally posted by quanchi112 [...]despite clear evidence to the contrary

there was no evidence to the contrary before vader. he was the only evidence.

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Your Lord knows very well what is in your heart. Your soul suffices this day as a reckoner against you. I need no witnesses. You do not listen to your soul, but listen instead to your anger and your rage.

Originally posted by Bashar Teg there was no evidence to the contrary before vader. he was the only evidence.

Luke sensed the conflict Vader didn't. It was there hence why Luke could sense it. Vader was delusional about it. That's my point. Kylo recognized his own personal conflict and overcame it whereas Vader didn't and thus fell victim to it in the moment. Delusional was Vader to a T.

Originally posted by quanchi112 Luke sensed the conflict Vader didn't. It was there hence why Luke could sense it. Vader was delusional about it. That's my point. Kylo recognized his own personal conflict and overcame it whereas Vader didn't and thus fell victim to it in the moment. Delusional was Vader to a T.

you're still misusing 'delusional'. there was no prior evidence that it was possible. there's no way around that. luke was the one who was loosely accused of being delusional, by yoda/ben as well as vader/palpatine.

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Your Lord knows very well what is in your heart. Your soul suffices this day as a reckoner against you. I need no witnesses. You do not listen to your soul, but listen instead to your anger and your rage.

Originally posted by Bashar Teg you're still misusing 'delusional'. there was no prior evidence that it was possible. there's no way around that. luke was the one who was loosely accused of being delusional, by yoda/ben as well as vader/palpatine.

So wait you are saying there is no prior evidence a person can change their mind ? It doesn't matter if Luke was right or not he sense the inner conflict which was taking place. Vader chose to ignore it. It was taking place. Acting like someone can't change their mind is really ridiculous. The conflict was real and Luke sensed what was occurring. Vader is undeniably weak as you yourself have theorized since he's the only documented Sith flip flopper in history.

Originally posted by quanchi112 So wait you are saying there is no prior evidence a person can change their mind ? It doesn't matter if Luke was right or not he sense the inner conflict which was taking place. Vader chose to ignore it. It was taking place. Acting like someone can't change their mind is really ridiculous. The conflict was real and Luke sensed what was occurring. Vader is undeniably weak as you yourself have theorized since he's the only documented Sith flip flopper in history.

i'm saying that there was no prior knowledge that there was a way back from the dark side. luke's intuition and wishful speculation does not count as prior knowledge.

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Your Lord knows very well what is in your heart. Your soul suffices this day as a reckoner against you. I need no witnesses. You do not listen to your soul, but listen instead to your anger and your rage.

Originally posted by Bashar Teg i'm saying that there was no prior knowledge that there was a way back from the dark side. luke's intuition and wishful speculation does not count as prior knowledge.

Luke used the force to sense his inner conflict just as Vader used the force to find out about his sister. Vader then lied saying there was no conflict to later conceding To the fact Luke was right. It's in the film and Anakin concedes.

You mean no prior documentation. There's always a possibility of someone changing however unlikely. Luke was more wise than Yoda, Kenobi, and Vader combined. Not surprising when you factor in the stupid decisions from all three in the history of Star Wars that these dopes were wrong here.

Originally posted by quanchi112 Luke used the force to sense his inner conflict just as Vader used the force to find out about his sister. Vader then lied saying there was no conflict to later conceding To the fact Luke was right. It's in the film and Anakin concedes.

You mean no prior documentation. There's always a possibility of someone changing however unlikely. Luke was more wise than Yoda, Kenobi, and Vader combined. Not surprising when you factor in the stupid decisions from all three in the history of Star Wars that these dopes were wrong here.

of course luke was right. however it was speculation and not provable to anyone, and all prior evidence contradicted it. That does not mean that ben and yoda were delusional. biased and close-minded to the possibility, perhaps. but 'delusional' simply does not apply here.

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Your Lord knows very well what is in your heart. Your soul suffices this day as a reckoner against you. I need no witnesses. You do not listen to your soul, but listen instead to your anger and your rage.

Originally posted by Bashar Teg of course luke was right. however it was speculation and not provable to anyone, and all prior evidence contradicted it. That does not mean that ben and yoda were delusional. biased and close-minded to the possibility, perhaps. but 'delusional' simply does not apply here.

Luke used the force to sense the conflict. Do you not realize force users can do that ? Delusional applied to Vader since he was experiencing the conflict but the other two were simply wrong.

Originally posted by quanchi112 Luke used the force to sense the conflict. Do you not realize force users can do that ? Delusional applied to Vader since he was experiencing the conflict but the other two were simply wrong.

it's not clear whether vader was conscious of his conflict at all.

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Your Lord knows very well what is in your heart. Your soul suffices this day as a reckoner against you. I need no witnesses. You do not listen to your soul, but listen instead to your anger and your rage.

Originally posted by Bashar Teg it's not clear whether vader was conscious of his conflict at all.

He was delusional about accepting it but Luke sensed it because it was occurring. Vader later conceded and his actions proved he was indeed having a conflict. Do you think Luke's dialogue to Vader was to lie to the audience ?

Originally posted by quanchi112 He was delusional about accepting it but Luke sensed it because it was occurring. Vader later conceded and his actions proved he was indeed having a conflict. Do you think Luke's dialogue to Vader was to lie to the audience ?

luke believed it could happen but that didn't mean that he knew for sure. what tension would there have been if we all knew that vader was gonna turn good again? RotJ would have sucked even without the ewoks.

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Your Lord knows very well what is in your heart. Your soul suffices this day as a reckoner against you. I need no witnesses. You do not listen to your soul, but listen instead to your anger and your rage.

Kylo will work much better as a redeemed Jedi. We've not seen that before in the SW films (Vader was a last minute thing), so it could be interesting, and it would also mean Han didn't give his life in vein.

Originally posted by Bashar Teg luke believed it could happen but that didn't mean that he knew for sure. what tension would there have been if we all knew that vader was gonna turn good again? RotJ would have sucked even without the ewoks.

Luke sensed the conflict that was happening. Vader denied it was happening which is being delusional.

Kylo will work much better as a redeemed Jedi. We've not seen that before in the SW films (Vader was a last minute thing), so it could be interesting, and it would also mean Han didn't give his life in vein.

Vader ceased being Vader in the end. He returned to the light and as Anakin. Your do gooder mentality is sickening. You loved Vader turning from the darkness for the light. He died a weak traitor. You want Kylo to also become a traitor.