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Manni,
I wonder if part of the saturation tracking issue isn't due to "profiling a profile". Certainly the color profiles are adjusting gains and offsets as well as color coordinates and it seems to me that calibrating over the top of that is only going to be linear over a very narrow correction range. I definitely believe there is an undesired interaction when doing this and saturation tracking errors seem like a plausible result. Limiting the "correction profile" (ie user calibration) by choosing a close profile to start with makes sense. I wonder though how well the CMS would work if one could start out with no profile.

The saturations tracking issue is possibly due to calibrating from a profile, unfortunately calibrating without a profile is not an option, as when you switch the profile off all the other options (including CMS, gamma, greyscale) etc are not available anymore.

Selecting a profile has no effect on gamma or greyscale, it only selects the "native" colorspace you are going to calibrate from.

An external VP may not even be an option with color profile "off", as you have no way to get white at 100% right, and the gamut may be too wide to be corrected anyway.

Quote:

Originally Posted by millerwill

The advice you received from others above seems good from all the reports I've seen here in the Forum; i.e., 1. seems like probably the best (the slightly lower o/f CR of the 40 vs the 50 will probably not be a serious shortcoming unless your room is nearly a perfect black hole).

I am still with my RS20 (i.e., 'waiting til next yr' to upgrade) and its CMS, though not perfect, performs (using ChromaPure) considerably better than that in the newer RS50 (at least from what I read here).

I agree that there is little point in buying an rs50 or rs60 if your room is not dedicated, however having compared the two, I disagree about the statement regarding the rs20 offering better colour performance than the rs50.

Calibrate your rs20 with Chromapure and measure the saturations with the advanced color management module. You will see that the way they track is far from perfect. Not as bad as the rs50 when applying too much corrections with the CMS, but much worse than the standard colour profile on the rs50/60 which is incredibly close to the standard (much better than THX on the rs20) and tracks in a perfectly linear way. If it is slightly undersaturated, bumping color up to add a bit of luminance to compensate the slight lack of saturation allows to get a much better result (from a color gamut point of view) than a calibrated rs20. The uncorrected color profiles track in a perfectly linear way, both regarding stimulus and saturation. Again, if you are targetting rec-709, the CMS issue on the rs50/60 is a non issue if you know what you are doing or if you take the time to read the calibration thread.

Quote:

Originally Posted by krichter1

So then Manni when I redo my calibration today do you think I should stick with Standard CP or move to Stage at this point (I'll start w/ 2.3 gamma as you instructed me the other day)? Will HCFR have any issues w/ the Stage CP when trying to fiddle with color for 75% stim?

Thanks!

I would stick to the standard color profile for now, and see what you get when working on the greyscale with the gains at 100IRE, as this may improve your gamut. You need to get greyscale/gamma right before starting fiddling with gamut, especially with the CMS of the rs50 as it is now. Hopefully your gamut will be fine, and if it isn't just try to play with the main color control to lower the dEs (take red, and move the color control one notch at a time, seing if your dE goes down or not. It is likely to go down up to a point, then go back up again. In my case the sweet spot is around 2-3). You are likely to get infinitely better results than by playing with the CMS in its present state.

As I suggested in the other thread, select a custom gamma with a 2.3 default before working on the greyscale, and if after your greyscale calibration your curve is still going too low in the high end, try to play with the dark/light adjustment to correct higher part of the gamma curve.

The saturations tracking issue is possibly due to calibrating from a profile, unfortunately calibrating without a profile is not an option, as when you switch the profile off all the other options (including CMS, gamma, greyscale) etc are not available anymore.

Yes, I understand. Perhaps JVC can create a profile that would be more suitable for further CMS corrections.

Quote:

Selecting a profile has no effect on gamma or greyscale, it only selects the "native" colorspace you are going to calibrate from.

also understood.

Quote:

An external VP may not even be an option with color profile "off", as you have no way to get white at 100% right, and the gamut may be too wide to be corrected anyway.

So I'm new to all of this projector stuff, and I'm having a problem differentiating the JVC projectors. The JVC DLA-RS50 seems as if it would perform similarly to the JVC DLA-X7.
The X7 is the "Procision" Series and the RS50 is of course the Reference Series.

They have the same contrast ratio and they are both in the same price range as well. Matter of fact, I just looked at the specs side-by-side on projectorcentral.com and they are identical. I was wondering if you guys could shed some light on this for me?

So I'm new to all of this projector stuff, and I'm having a problem differentiating the JVC projectors. The JVC DLA-RS50 seems as if it would perform similarly to the JVC DLA-X7.
The X7 is the "Procision" Series and the RS50 is of course the Reference Series.

They have the same contrast ratio and they are both in the same price range as well. Matter of fact, I just looked at the specs side-by-side on projectorcentral.com and they are identical. I was wondering if you guys could shed some light on this for me?

I agree that there is little point in buying an rs50 or rs60 if your room is not dedicated, however having compared the two, I disagree about the statement regarding the rs20 offering better colour performance than the rs50.

Calibrate your rs20 with Chromapure and measure the saturations with the advanced color management module. You will see that the way they track is far from perfect. Not as bad as the rs50 when applying too much corrections with the CMS, but much worse than the standard colour profile on the rs50/60 which is incredibly close to the standard (much better than THX on the rs20) and tracks in a perfectly linear way. If it is slightly undersaturated, bumping color up to add a bit of luminance to compensate the slight lack of saturation allows to get a much better result (from a color gamut point of view) than a calibrated rs20. The uncorrected color profiles track in a perfectly linear way, both regarding stimulus and saturation. Again, if you are targetting rec-709, the CMS issue on the rs50/60 is a non issue if you know what you are doing or if you take the time to read the calibration thread.

Thanks for clarifying, Manni; I certainly take your word on this, as I haven't had a 50 to play with.

I agree that the lumen issue is the main reason to look at a 40 instead of the 50/60. The CMS and Gamma control issues don't help make the case for the top models but hopefully they will be addressed. That said, knowing what I know now I'd more than likely opt for a 40/Mini3D if I were choosing again.

OK guys you have really helped me - it appears we have consensus that the RS40 is the way to go. That means - because of this forum - I am purchasing a $4495 (list) vs. a $11,995 projector - a savings of $7500
That is absolutely outrageous!

"Rather than throw in a low-cost processing solution. like many receivers, Anthem went for the Sigma Designs (was Gennum) VXP processor, which was used in the respected Crystalio 2, and subsequently the Lumagen Radiance. There's no better credibility than that, and this is an effective and worthwhile implementation."

"Connecting the inputs and outputs is conventional enough, but then the D2v shows its serious video processor credentials by offering four video output configurations. These configure the resolution, refresh rate, colour space, colour format, colour depth, aspect ratio and secondary video outputs. There's pretty good guidance about how to configure your system for best results."

And most relevant to the issue at hand:

"During this review, I happened to have a number of very good video processors to compare at the same time. I had a Denon DVP-602, DVDO VP50 and Lumagen Radiance XS, and this made for some unfair but interesting comparisons. I used Digital Video Essentials DVD and Spears and Munsil Blu-ray test discs to run through these processors, plus some more close-to-home material, like the BBC weather forecast map. I'm a fan of HQV Realta processing, in general, but the DVP-602 didn't seem to have much advantage over the Anthem as far as I could see. The VP50 benefitted from progressive re-interlacing, which helped with SkyHD de-interlacing, but then I'm not a great fan of DVDO scaling, which makes the picture look busier than it should be.

I think everyone knows the Lumagen Radiance is the best VP in the business, but the margin of superiority over the D2v's implementation of the Gennum processor would be difficult to justify if you were thinking of a separate processor. The Radiance has slightly better control and flexibility, but the Anthem is still very good here, and would make a good case for itself, just as a video processor."

So with the money you guys saved me by not purchasing an X9, I'm going to put towards Anthem D2V and use that to calibrate my X3/RS40 - and get state-of-the-art audio at same time.

Geoff's point is correct of course but as Manni has pointed out many times, the colors are very accurate out of the box and only the most discerning eye need worry about using the internal CMS. Grayscale would be your primary priority to get corrected.

That being said in relation to the Anthem I thought I remember that thing (the D2V) was like $7,500 msrp so how would you be saving that much money?

Also I just thought of the fact that 3D might not be important to you now (it will be!) but I don't think the Anthem's HDMI 1.3c supports 3D does it? Just something to consider as well.

I thought you were trying to decide between a 40 & a 50 (not a 60)?

Kevin

You only live once, but if you live it right, once is enough.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Geoff's point is correct of course but as Manni has pointed out many times, the colors are very accurate out of the box and only the most discerning eye need worry about using the internal CMS. Grayscale would be your primary priority to get corrected.

That being said in relation to the Anthem I thought I remember that thing (the D2V) was like $7,500 msrp so how would you be saving that much money?

I thought you were trying to decide between a 40 & a 50 (not a 60)?

krichter1: I always included the 60 in my range of possibilities. If somehow the 60 didn't suffer the same ailments as the 50 (lumen loss + troublesome CMS) that would be the way to go. And I know the Anthem is costly but somehow it seems less costly than a dedicated VP and includes state-of-the-art audio and switching. I just want the best system possible.

So by you reiterating ... "the colors are very accurate out of the box and only the most discerning eye need worry about using the internal CMS. Grayscale would be your primary priority to get corrected." are you saying that the Anthem (based on description above) could handle grayscale ... and I might be OK with my preferred X3 + Anthem D2V combo?

It would also be worth checking if it has hdmi 1.4a inputs for 3D. I don't know if these monsters are updated, but as it's pretty old tech (2009 I think) it probably was hdmi 1.3 only on release.

Thank you Manni - it presently has 1.3c but my understanding is that a modular update to 1.4a will be available. But I will check to be 100% sure. Since I am not concerned with 3D now - but will probably be in 3 years - I do want to ensure that capability.

By the way that's another reason to go with the RS40/X3. It's a lot easier to upgrade that in 3 years vs. an $11K projector. jvh

krichter1: I always included the 60 in my range of possibilities. If somehow the 60 didn't suffer the same ailments as the 50 (lumen loss + troublesome CMS) that would be the way to go. And I know the Anthem is costly but somehow it seems less costly than a dedicated VP and includes state-of-the-art audio and switching. I just want the best system possible.

So by you reiterating ... "the colors are very accurate out of the box and only the most discerning eye need worry about using the internal CMS. Grayscale would be your primary priority to get corrected." are you saying that the Anthem (based on description above) could handle grayscale ... and I might be OK with my preferred X3 + Anthem D2V combo?

No because the Anthem is only a scaler video processor like my Denon 5308ci and lacks a CMS to calibrate grayscale.

Plus Console you do realize the Anthem is only a preamp processor and not a full blown receiver right? I think you'd be much better off with an RS50 & say a Denon 4311 3D receiver rather than an RS40 + external VP + Anthem preamp + at least a 5 channel amp, (from a cost perspective).

No because the Anthem is only a scaler video processor like my Denon 5308ci and lacks a CMS to calibrate grayscale.

Plus Console you do realize the Anthem is only a preamp processor and not a full blown receiver right? I think you'd be much better off with an RS50 & say a Denon 4311 3D receiver rather than an RS40 + external VP + Anthem preamp + at least a 5 channel amp, (from a cost perspective).

Yes I knew it was not a receiver and needed an amp. OK - bubble burst - CMS is required and Anthem doesn't do it - back to RS40 + Lumagen VP.

But as long as I'm getting an outboard processor I might as well use it to calibrate my plasma as well - in that case do I need an XE or XS since they have 2 HDMI outputs? Doesn't DVDO make a similar product?

Yes I knew it was not a receiver and needed an amp. OK - bubble burst - CMS is required and Anthem doesn't do it - back to RS40 + Lumagen VP.

But as long as I'm getting an outboard processor I might as well use it to calibrate my plasma as well - in that case do I need an XE or XS since they have 2 HDMI outputs? Doesn't DVDO make a similar product?

A CMS is not required to adjust greyscale or gamma. The rs40 on its own can do that without any external VP.

Yes I knew it was not a receiver and needed an amp. OK - bubble burst - CMS is required and Anthem doesn't do it - back to RS40 + Lumagen VP.

But as long as I'm getting an outboard processor I might as well use it to calibrate my plasma as well - in that case do I need an XE or XS since they have 2 HDMI outputs? Doesn't DVDO make a similar product?

You could do RS40 + Lumagen Mini + Anthem AVM50V and still be within budget! Then you are covering all bases. I would find a way to keep an Anthem proc in the equation. The room correction alone is worth it.

are you ok with 30% less lumens? I've had both an RS40 and an RS50. My 50 will likely be for sale soon, excellent convergence & focus. I want the extra lumens my RS40 had.

until JVC explains why the 50/60 is dimmer, it's a hard sell for me since the 40/Mini 3D will be an excellent combo without worrying if JVC is going to fix the outstanding issues with the 50/60.

You'll be hard pressed unless under the ideal theater conditions to see a noticeable different between the 40 and 50 in regard to contrast.

Jason - as far as you know - does the 40, 50 and 60 have the exact same lens - that is, should the image be exactly as sharp no matter which series one picks? I know the 60 is supposed to be "hand selected" but not really sure what that means in terms of sharpness.

You'll be hard pressed unless under the ideal theater conditions to see a noticeable different between the 40 and 50 in regard to contrast.

A few weeks ago the JVC National Product Manager (first name Dan) gave a demo with an X9 at a local A/V boutique store (Long Island, NY). I was truly blown away by the image in general and the sharpness in particular. I don't know how much they optimized the projector but the demo was in pitch black room with Ultimatte 150 screen. Bright, punch, natural skin tones, everything I wanted.

A few days ago I went back to this store and demo'd an X3 (RS40). I had the same impression as with X9. Although store owner and salespeople swear that the X9 was sharper. But how do you really remember exactly what your eyes saw 2 weeks prior and compare it to what you are seeing in the moment? Impossible (says me - but not says them - of course to them there is a $7500 differential).

In any case the X3 was very impressive and seemed to me very sharp. The light output was not measured but both seemed more than up to the task. Final thought is that the X9 was NOT $7500 better than the X3. Of that I'm sure. jvh

Jason - as far as you know - does the 40, 50 and 60 have the exact same lens - that is, should the image be exactly as sharp no matter which series one picks? I know the 60 is supposed to be "hand selected" but not really sure what that means in terms of sharpness.

I've never heard any discussion that the lens was different on any of the new 2011 models.The optical blocks are supposed to be hand picked to get you to that 100,000:1 contrast ratio.

There were several members with RS60/X9's that had less than optimal convergence. JVC didn't promise this, but for the cost, you'd hope they would spend a little more time making sure the flagship projector was something to brag about. Good convergence is the wholy grail for 3 chip projectors.

The RS40/X3 is fantastic for the price point, sharper than last year, less motion contouring, great native contrast ratio (same as RS25) and of course 3D for less $$ than the RS25 cost this time last year. You can't go wrong for the price point.

The 50/60 on paper sounds like the next logical step up for even better performance. There has been a ton of discussion on the dual iris, and there isn't a clear answer as to it's benefit just yet. The CMS is the big push for the extra $$. It works, just not exactly as it should and hopefully they will fix it soon along with the Gamma issue.

When you factor in having less lumens and were expecting the same as the RS40/X3 owners are seeing, it becomes more of a difficult decision.

imo, the RS40/X3 combined with the mini3D is a no loss decision. Great projector (assuming you get a good copy) and a CMS / VP that you can take along to the next projector. Plus you also fix the 3D issue that they are having with DirecTV. Only an issue with JVC, Sony 3D and Sharp 3D are no problem. This affects all 3 models. The price point of the RS40/X3 makes it an easy sell even when the 2012 models hit. The higher end models might be much more difficult to flip down the road if the issues aren't resolved.

My only hesitation to go back to the RS40 is sample variance. I sent back the first projector for convergence and focus issues. By some luck, this particular RS50 has great convergence and razor sharp focus. There is a chance I could end up with the same issues on the next projector.

The Lumagens do not use the scaling in the Gennum chip. The Lumagens use Lumegen's own proprietary Ring Free scaling and that is the best in the business. Also the Lumagens provide for 21 point gamma and gray scale adjustments. As an owner, there is no other processor in the non professional class that can touch it. AVS has the entire Lumagen line very attractively priced with shipment no later than a day after order.

My first RS40 had very poor convergence. Even so, I was hesitant to send it back because I was afraid the replacement might have worse ghosting. To my surprise, the replacement has excellent convergence (and a sharper picture), and there is even less ghosting than on the first. Although I'm still concerned about possible lamp issues, I couldn't be happier with the image the RS40 throws. I consider it the best projector I've ever owned by a wide margin. Even with bad convergence, I'd take it over anything I owned before. At full price, it would be the best bargain, but at the pre-order price it was a steal.

Okay, so I spent the day working on getting my PJ calibrated with the help of Manni's suggestions (Thanks Manni!), from the AV forums cal thread. As well I picked up a Mastech lux meter off Amazon to help prove out the final results.

Again my set-up is as follows:

110" (96x54" area equaling 36sqft.) Seymour AV AT material rated at ~0.95. The RS50 is ceiling mounted at a ~17' throw distance.

Here are my beginning readings just after the PJ was powered on for an hour:

Although I am very disappointed with these results as it relates purely in terms of Lumens, I have to say the results attached from post calibration are spectacular from a pure IQ perspective (and yes Manni & Jason these were without and bump in offsets!) . In the right light controled calibrated environment, this is the best looking picture I have ever seen in my theater; bar none!

I would not hesitate recommending the RS50 to anyone who intends to install one of these in the right room. If lumens are your main concern, then look elsewhere because this is not the light cannon that was advertised by JVC (shame on them for holding back on providing real world ratings as they have traditionally done in the past; it's what drove me to this purchase), and you will be disappointed. If however you go into this purchase with the mindset that your expectation is to find the finest looking native contrast picture for under $8K then I say this could be the PJ for you. It really does look phenominal in a bat cave!

The best news I could possibly hear from JVC is they have found a software problem with the Color Profile enablement which they intent to correct in addition to the CMS & Gamma (and the DirecTV optional format support would be great too!)

UPDATE: Oh and I forgot to mention that you cannot calibrate grayscale without a color profile turned on unless you attempt to do something (if you can) in the SM! (and contrary to a comment made somewhere recently about this looking good/acceptable in 3D . . . absolutely false!)

Kevin

You only live once, but if you live it right, once is enough.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

I've been very pleased with my RS-60 thus far, in virtually every aspect. While I would agree that it's not a light "cannon," my post-calibrated numbers were 14FL, which Chad Bilheimer felt were good numbers. Of course, I probably don't have 100 hours on mine yet. I don't know what those numbers translate into as lumens.

I am in a bat cave, with a 114" Stewart Studiotek 130 screen, and, given the enormous contrast punch I'm getting, as well as fine optics, it is in many aspects the best projector I've owned. Its contrast alone makes it superior to the Qualia and the VPL-VW200 which I had, as well as the Runco Q-750i DLP, and the Sharp XV-Z20000 I had.

I agree that, once you put on those 3D glasses, the light is greatly in need of help, though that usually goes away once your eyes have adjusted to those glasses. While I'm amused at what 3D offers, I honestly find little enjoyment in going through the compromises associated with watching those discs, not to mention that generally inane content on 3D discs.