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Re: Warhammer 40k fluff thread VI: They see me Ward'en, they haten

Originally Posted by Hazzardevil

I thought that the emperor couldn't do much manifesting of power due to being deep deep underground where he can't see anything.

And I think I know a surefire way of a huge amount of the imperium losing faith in the emperor:
Show the universe what the Emperor looks like, I was surprised at what he really looked like when I first saw it.

First you have to decide what he looks like. Even official artwork varies wildly on his appearance, let alone fan depictions.

Originally Posted by Red Fel, on quest rewards

"Is a stack of ten pancakes too many pancakes to give to the party, even if most of them fell on the floor and one or two were stepped on? I wanted to give my party pancakes as a reward but I'm unsure if it's too much. The pancakes are also laced with blowfish poison so the party would have to get an antitoxin before they could eat the ones which weren't pulverized by shoes."

I don't think anyone would want those pancakes even if you paid them to eat them.

Re: Warhammer 40k fluff thread VI: They see me Ward'en, they haten

It might be a big step, but unfortunately Khorne draws power from both.

Yeah right...

Lets see the outcome of round 1.

Chaos gods? still sitting in the warp having fun toying with the lifes of mortals.

Emperor?

Stuck in a near-death state he proberly wont recover from, while his dream of an age of light and reason has been corruped to a degree where it isnt visibel anymore.

You're talking about round 2.

Round 1 is when Big E spreads the imperial truth to the stars. Reading the horus heresy novels (False Gods specifically) gives us a scene where horus first meets with and talks to the chaos gods. And they admit that the emperor's program of uniting the galaxy in atheism is killing them. Corrupting Horus was a mad gamble on their part that ended up paying big dividens, but was ultimately exactly that: A mad gamble. If horus hadn't sided with them? They would have unquestionably died out. No other individual or faction could have hoped to make a dent in the Great Crusade, and the Imperial Truth would have dominated the galaxy and starved the Chaos Gods to death.

Emperor's plan was actually pretty ****ing brilliant. The only flaw in it was not giving the details to the primarchs, so they knew what the ACTUAL goal of galactic unification was. Not just the stated goal.

Claspedchurches: This is a mudstone dwarven fortress. All craftsdwarfship is of the highest quality. It is encrusted with bauxite, studded with ice, decorated with gold, and adorned with hanging rings of magma. This fortress menaces with spikes of steel, iron, bronze, and silver. On the fortress is an image of an image of cheese in pitchblende.

On the fortress is an image of a megaweapon in gold, silver, jet, obsidian and adamantine. The goblins are burning.

Re: Warhammer 40k fluff thread VI: They see me Ward'en, they haten

Sure, he's stuck in a near-death state, but that's not unfixable. If he dies: Star Child.

Which doesn't exist anymore.
The Star Child is a weapon of the C'Tan (Star Gods, hint, hint), the greatest weapon against Chaos that the galaxy has ever known.

Since the Star Gods no longer exist, the fluff surrounding the Star Child is likewise retconned out of existence.

EDIT: So is most of Cypher's bad-arsery. The second greatest tool of the C'Tan, destined to unhinge Chaos whilst simultaneously bring the return of the Emperor (assuming by Shanking him with C'Tan blade, which Cypher lost). Besides, the HH series gives Cypher new fluff (and the Dark Angels books are terrible).

Last edited by Cheesegear; 2012-05-24 at 02:56 AM.

Steam Name: Cheesegear
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You can fight like a krogan or run like a leopard but you'll never be better than Commander Shepard.

Re: Warhammer 40k fluff thread VI: They see me Ward'en, they haten

He also destroyed the only possible vessel for the Chaos Gods in the galaxy.

Sure, he's stuck in a near-death state, but that's not unfixable. If he dies: Star Child.

Vessel? last time i read the lore it just said he had been empowered by all 4 gods, just like Abbadon has been now.

And that still leaves the chaos gods free to continue as before, while the emperor is stuck drooling in a wheelchair.

Round 1 is when Big E spreads the imperial truth to the stars. Reading the horus heresy novels (False Gods specifically) gives us a scene where horus first meets with and talks to the chaos gods. And they admit that the emperor's program of uniting the galaxy in atheism is killing them. Corrupting Horus was a mad gamble on their part that ended up paying big dividens, but was ultimately exactly that: A mad gamble. If horus hadn't sided with them? They would have unquestionably died out. No other individual or faction could have hoped to make a dent in the Great Crusade, and the Imperial Truth would have dominated the galaxy and starved the Chaos Gods to death.

Actualy we got baggrund lore showing that this was some kind of lie from the chaos gods side, and that the great crusade wouldnt have killed them.

The evidence lies in Slanash, who were born and empowered without any actual worship besides dedication to his portfolio.

Re: Warhammer 40k fluff thread VI: They see me Ward'en, they haten

Yeah, the other potential vessels are useless in comparison to Horus, though. They aren't strong enough. Abaddon's just a jumped-up Champion of Chaos Unidivided who has a bad habit of failing repeatedly (You need how many Black Crusades to topple the Imperium?)

He was the only mortal (Big E aside) that could hold their power in the material plane. And he got erased. The others are now just Daemon Princes, who can't leave the Eye for any extended period of time.

I want to know how the Great Crusade navigated without the Astronomican, though...?

Re: Warhammer 40k fluff thread VI: They see me Ward'en, they haten

Which doesn't exist anymore.
The Star Child is a weapon of the C'Tan (Star Gods, hint, hint), the greatest weapon against Chaos that the galaxy has ever known.

Since the Star Gods no longer exist, the fluff surrounding the Star Child is likewise retconned out of existence.

EDIT: So is most of Cypher's bad-arsery. The second greatest tool of the C'Tan, destined to unhinge Chaos whilst simultaneously bring the return of the Emperor (assuming by Shanking him with C'Tan blade, which Cypher lost). Besides, the HH series gives Cypher new fluff (and the Dark Angels books are terrible).

Re: Warhammer 40k fluff thread VI: They see me Ward'en, they haten

Originally Posted by bluntpencil

Yeah, the other potential vessels are useless in comparison to Horus, though. They aren't strong enough. Abaddon's just a jumped-up Champion of Chaos Unidivided who has a bad habit of failing repeatedly (You need how many Black Crusades to topple the Imperium?)

He was the only mortal (Big E aside) that could hold their power in the material plane. And he got erased. The others are now just Daemon Princes, who can't leave the Eye for any extended period of time.

I want to know how the Great Crusade navigated without the Astronomican, though...?

Keep in mind Abbadon's reputation for failure is greatly exaggerated. Of the 13 Crusades so far, he's actually succeeded at his intended goal on a little more than half of them (which was very rarely 'conquer the Imperium').

Originally Posted by Red Fel, on quest rewards

"Is a stack of ten pancakes too many pancakes to give to the party, even if most of them fell on the floor and one or two were stepped on? I wanted to give my party pancakes as a reward but I'm unsure if it's too much. The pancakes are also laced with blowfish poison so the party would have to get an antitoxin before they could eat the ones which weren't pulverized by shoes."

I don't think anyone would want those pancakes even if you paid them to eat them.

Re: Warhammer 40k fluff thread VI: They see me Ward'en, they haten

Originally Posted by bluntpencil

Thorians still argue in favour of that sorta thing, though.

'Sort of', being the operative phrase. What Thorians are actually trying to do is find a super-saint. Kind of like a Champion of the Emperor in opposition to Abbadon. One such a person - they believe - was Sebastian Thor, hence the name.

Only crazy people actually want to kill the Emperor. Since killing the Emperor is unthinkable to pretty much everyone alive. Whether the theory is solid or not. Because - you guessed it - the Star Child is no longer canon.

Also, he has Luther's the Lion's sword too.

Which doesn't do anything except be a really cool sword, and, thus, irrelevant. It isn't even part of his wargear. It has no special properties that any other Primarch weapon wouldn'tve had. It is effectively about as powerful as Dorn's Soulspear, or Fulgrim's Fireblade or Lorgar's Illuminarum. Which aren't powerful weapons as such, it's the person behind the weapon smashing faces in.

More accurately, since the Lion's sword is broken, it's probably more akin to the Sword of the High Marshals held by the Black Templars.

I still like Cypher, to be honest.

Why? The cool version of him has been retconned out of existence. We may as well bring back the Sensei while we're at it. And the form that Cypher does exist in, isn't actually all that spectacular.

Last edited by Cheesegear; 2012-05-24 at 06:45 AM.

Steam Name: Cheesegear
League of Legends Name: Cheesegear
You can fight like a krogan or run like a leopard but you'll never be better than Commander Shepard.

Re: Warhammer 40k fluff thread VI: They see me Ward'en, they haten

Yeah, the other potential vessels are useless in comparison to Horus, though. They aren't strong enough. Abaddon's just a jumped-up Champion of Chaos Unidivided who has a bad habit of failing repeatedly (You need how many Black Crusades to topple the Imperium?)

He was the only mortal (Big E aside) that could hold their power in the material plane. And he got erased. The others are now just Daemon Princes, who can't leave the Eye for any extended period of time.

I want to know how the Great Crusade navigated without the Astronomican, though...?

I dont know where you get this from, in level of power Horus was just 1 of several primarchs, and was neither stronger nor weaker than his brothers in any significant degree.

And what made him able to to fight the emperor were mostly that the chaos gods managet to agree on something for a change, combined with Horus being decently powerfull to start with.

Re: Warhammer 40k fluff thread VI: They see me Ward'en, they haten

Yeah, I'm hoping he comes back with a vengeance in the new Chaos Codex. He used to be totally badass. Was his background actually removed, or were we given more options to think about?

The Lion's sword may have mystical properties we don't know of. There's always magic, after all.

Sebastian Thor, and other 'super saints', would be better than Abaddon. He basically had Warp Storms turning up wherever he needed them. Abaddon doesn't even have Psychic powers. Thor could banish daemons by looking at them, and had the Emperor crippling the Enemy with warp storms for him.

The Emperor's control over Warp Storms is certainly interesting, though, normally they're associated with Chaos, but some seem to be intentionally working in the Imperium's favour.

Re: Warhammer 40k fluff thread VI: They see me Ward'en, they haten

I dont know where you get this from, in level of power Horus was just 1 of several primarchs, and was neither stronger nor weaker than his brothers in any significant degree.

And what made him able to to fight the emperor were mostly that the chaos gods managet to agree on something for a change, combined with Horus being decently powerfull to start with.

What I understood was that the Emperor was able to snuff him out of existence with but a thought, but that he held back until it was too late.

Then, of course, he destroyed his own compassion and mercy and destroyed Horus' soul. The 'chink in Horus armour' that Sanguinius revealed was that the Emperor had to show no mercy, a metaphorical chink, as opposed to a gap in his armour.

To me, Horus always seemed the most powerful of the Primarchs, or the Chaos Gods had only really one chance to fill up the likes of a Primarch with their power. If they could do it with Horus, after all, why didn't they do it with Lorgar afterwards?

Re: Warhammer 40k fluff thread VI: They see me Ward'en, they haten

Originally Posted by bluntpencil

Then, of course, he destroyed his own compassion and mercy and destroyed Horus' soul. The 'chink in Horus armour' that Sanguinius revealed was that the Emperor had to show no mercy, a metaphorical chink, as opposed to a gap in his armour.

Not even close. Horus cutting down Sanguinius meant that Horus was no longer his brother, and no longer the Emperor's son. And that's why the Emperor smashed him in the face.

If they could do it with Horus, after all, why didn't they do it with Lorgar afterwards?

Wow. They did it with Lorgar first. The problem was that he wasn't suited to lead, but to corrupt. And that's exactly what he did. With flying colours.

Steam Name: Cheesegear
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You can fight like a krogan or run like a leopard but you'll never be better than Commander Shepard.

Re: Warhammer 40k fluff thread VI: They see me Ward'en, they haten

Not even close. Horus cutting down Sanguinius meant that Horus was no longer his brother, and no longer the Emperor's son. And that's why the Emperor smashed him in the face.

I was of the opinion that the Emperor, after seeing this, removed the compassion from his own soul. Has this been retconned away, just like the Guardsman dude that accidentally ended up being in that same fight? Didn't they upgrade him to a Custodes? (Boo! Hiss!)

Wow. They did it with Lorgar first. The problem was that he wasn't suited to lead, but to corrupt. And that's exactly what he did. With flying colours.

Yeah, he wasn't suited to lead, but, hey, after Horus died, they may as well have had him destroying worlds instead of meditating for thousands of years.

"Horus is dead? Don't worry, we have a spare! Who do you have? Roboute Guilliman? Well done; we'll be eating your soul presently."

Horus was the only one strong enough to contain what they needed. Be it strength to contain their psychic power, or strength to lead people in war.

Re: Warhammer 40k fluff thread VI: They see me Ward'en, they haten

Doesnt the Alpha Legion turn because the Imperium ending chaos is a very real possibility, but one that would leave only mankind to turn against itself and then extinguish life in the galaxy? At least, thats the vision they are sold.

Re: Warhammer 40k fluff thread VI: They see me Ward'en, they haten

I was of the opinion that the Emperor, after seeing this, removed the compassion from his own soul.

Source? It's not far different from the real verstion.

Has this been retconned away, just like the Guardsman dude that accidentally ended up being in that same fight?

Rumour has it that Ollanius is coming back. As an Eternal. Similar to Duncan Idaho from Dune.

Originally Posted by bluntpencil

Why could the Emperor only make 20 Primarchs?

Because.
...He also made 21.

How did the Chaos Gods nick them?

Magic. Read Horus Rising.

The Emperor took a (stupid) gamble and used sorcery as well as science to create them, hoping to get them on side before the Chaos Gods could.

Wrong. The Primarchs are 100% science. Read Deliverance Lost. Big Daddy didn't know Chaos would steal them, so that was never an issue in his plan.
I suggest you check out Lexicanum and get your hands on as many books as possible.

Last edited by Cheesegear; 2012-05-24 at 07:50 AM.

Steam Name: Cheesegear
League of Legends Name: Cheesegear
You can fight like a krogan or run like a leopard but you'll never be better than Commander Shepard.

Re: Warhammer 40k fluff thread VI: They see me Ward'en, they haten

Originally Posted by Cheesegear

Wrong. The Primarchs are 100% science. Read more books. Or Lexicanum will do. You make a lot of theories. Most of which have been proven false by Horus Heresy novels. And the rest hasn't been around for 15 years.

-emperor creates primarchs.
-Chaos gods steal primarchs and corrupt several of them with warp magics, including sanguinus geting magic wings (since they grant him maneuverable flight whitout a winged tail, which is imposible by actual science).
-emperor finds primarchs and goes "I'm fine with that. Here guys, I'll let you control my legions, what could go wrong?"
-?
-End up as a glorified torch.

So yes, magic was definetely involved on the creation of the primarchs. The emperor may've not done so willingly, but by granting control of the legions to warp-corrupted primarchs instead of, you know, making new ones, magic was involved.

If there's completely arbitarly limitations on the primarch creation that would stop him from replicating the experiment, then it was never science to begin with. Science needs to be constant and dupliceable to be science, so if all your books can come up with is "because", then it's magic pure and simple.

Originally Posted by Cheesegear

Big Daddy didn't know Chaos would steal them, so that was never an issue in his plan.

Yeah? And? Frequently throughout the Heresy novels, Emperor makes a ton of bad decisions. That's kind of the point. Else how would we identify with the Primarchs who went bad? What would be the point of the Heresy if Dad is actually always right? There'd be no reason to rebel in the first place.

Lorgar was treated awfully. Should the Emperor have done what he did? Hell no. But that's why Lorgar did what he did. Angron was lost from the start because Dad did a Greyson move.

The Emperor being an idiot isn't new.

Last edited by Cheesegear; 2012-05-24 at 08:00 AM.

Steam Name: Cheesegear
League of Legends Name: Cheesegear
You can fight like a krogan or run like a leopard but you'll never be better than Commander Shepard.

Re: Warhammer 40k fluff thread VI: They see me Ward'en, they haten

1) You need to read up on the Raven Guard. Like, anything at all about them. There is an extremely good reason why no one else has tried to make Super-Marines since Corax did.

2) So...your arguement that 'it's magic' relies on the fact that a publicly editable, fan-made wiki doesn't mention something from a single novel?

Originally Posted by Red Fel, on quest rewards

"Is a stack of ten pancakes too many pancakes to give to the party, even if most of them fell on the floor and one or two were stepped on? I wanted to give my party pancakes as a reward but I'm unsure if it's too much. The pancakes are also laced with blowfish poison so the party would have to get an antitoxin before they could eat the ones which weren't pulverized by shoes."

I don't think anyone would want those pancakes even if you paid them to eat them.

Re: Warhammer 40k fluff thread VI: They see me Ward'en, they haten

If he used science, he could have just made more after the first lot disappeared.

Why didn't he make more? Why did he use them to breed inferior Marines?

And, really, the most powerful Psyker ever to have existed didn't use psychic powers to improve his creations?

He probably used science, with his Primarch Code, then made a deal, which he thought went well, with the Chaos Gods to make them even better, near-immortals. He didn't get as good a deal as he thought.

"Right, they'll disappear for a while, but I'll find them. They might be a little bit mutated, but they'll love their Daddy!"

Do the books actually detail the creation of the Primarchs, or does it give secondary sources? Seeing as the Emperor is a big fat liar, I can still see him using sorcery, especially if his experiment can't be recreated. If it can't be recreated, after 20 successful attempts beforehand, it isn't science.

Re: Warhammer 40k fluff thread VI: They see me Ward'en, they haten

The primarch code now produces super-marines instead of primarchs? And then nobody else remembered to use them in 10 000 years? Yes that makes perfect sense indeed. Totally not magic.

"It doesn't say that it's not magic, so it is."

Perfect argument. Here, I found a scarecrow. It's full of straw.

You also still didn't explain why the emperor then didn't just create new primarchs instead of trusting his empire with warp-corrupted ones.

You tell me. We're not told why he doesn't (IF IT'S NOT EXPLAINED TO US IN EVERY DETAIL, ASSUME MAGIC). The Emperor's an idiot. I'm not disagreeing. In fact I even wrote as much in my last post. The Emperor also believed that he could save his sons from Chaos, right up until Horus slew Sanguinius. So, that's why he trusted his sons. Because that's what a father does.

Even though he basically pushed more than a few of them in that direction on his own.

Originally Posted by bluntpencil

Seeing as the Emperor is a big fat liar, I can still see him using sorcery, especially if his experiment can't be recreated.

Show me why you believe the Emperor would use Sorcery? Where has he ever done this? Where is the precedent?

Last edited by Cheesegear; 2012-05-24 at 08:10 AM.

Steam Name: Cheesegear
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You can fight like a krogan or run like a leopard but you'll never be better than Commander Shepard.

Re: Warhammer 40k fluff thread VI: They see me Ward'en, they haten

Originally Posted by bluntpencil

Why didn't he make more? Why did he use them to breed inferior Marines?

Going by Outcast Dead, he planned to do the same thing as he did to the Thunder Warriors*. That is to say, they have a limited "viable lifespan (thousands of years long, but long term plans, eh?)" and he wanted them to die and leave ordinary humans a sparkly galatic empire.

Re: Warhammer 40k fluff thread VI: They see me Ward'en, they haten

The outcomes imply Sorcery.

The intervention of the Chaos Gods, stealing the kids, and the creation of mutants, implies sorcery. The Chaos Gods can't just get involved in the material world, especially so close to Terra, without someone letting them in.

The fact that the Emperor did not make more, implies that he couldn't. He may have needed an unholy deal or arcane powers to do it, and reasoned that he didn't want to do it again. The fact that Corax' super-marines weren't Primarchs implies that they were missing something: maybe they didn't get their vitamins, maybe they weren't bound together with magic.

(The Emperor could have just let Corax clone Space Marines, though, then had psykers or drugs speed up their growth... both have precedent in the setting: I'm calling idiocy on this one.)

The fact that he later banned sorcery implies that he may have had a bad experience himself.

The fact that the Emperor was cool with having a bunch of super-mutants lead his crusade implies that he might have expected such.

Also: Psychic powers can give super-strength etc to people; as has been shown many times in the setting. As the most powerful psyker ever, why wouldn't the Emperor try to use magic as well as science? He was happy to use his magic in battle, along with his power fist or whatever, so why not do the same when making his kids?

"There are risks in the creation of these beings, especially with the powers I use. However, I'm the gods-damned Emperor. I can do what I want, and nothing can stop me!"

"Oh, crap, where did my sons go? Their mother should have been watching them!"