POSTGAME NOTES: “It was dumb all the way around and I paid for it.”

This isn’t how the Giants have lost games this season. The starting pitching has been terrible and the lineup can go silent at times, but far more often than not, the Giants pull games out when they take a lead into the late innings. It’s a simple formula, one that I’ve written about often and has led to the Giants entering tonight with a 21-1 record when they lead after seven innings.

It’s now 21-2 because of Paul Goldschmidt and a pitch that Jeremy Affeldt repeatedly called “dumb.”

“It was a dumb pitch, dumb location, dumb selection,” Affeldt said. “It was stupid. When you make a dump pitch to a dumb location, that’s what you deserve. This loss is on me.”

Across the clubhouse, fellow veteran Matt Cain said that’s not entirely true. Cain blamed himself for failing to get A.J. Pollock out with an 0-2 count. Manager Bruce Bochy didn’t seem pleased that Pablo Sandoval took a step back to field Pollock’s grounder.

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“Pollock runs well,” Bochy said. “Once he did that, he had no chance.”

That ended Cain’s night and brought that trustworthy formula into play. Affeldt is counted on to get the ball to Sergio Romo, and he has done a good job. He had given up just one run in his last 16 appearances and retired 35 of the last 42 hitters he had faced when Willie Bloomquist came to the plate. Affeldt walked him.

“I just tanked that deal,” Affeldt said. “I was flying open (with my delivery).”
That set the stage for Goldschmidt, one of the best hitters in the National League this season. (Non-Puig category, of course.)

Goldschmidt is no longer the guy who just feasts on certain pitchers and a certain Giants right-hander in particular. He has an OPS of 1.016 and entered the night with 13 RBIs in his last six games. He ranks in the top six of all three Triple Crown categories and leads the National League in WAR (3.7). He is, quite simply, doing it all.

And Jeremy Affeldt wanted no part of any of that.

“He’s not up there to walk but I’m not up there to throw a strike,” Affeldt said.

Why was Affeldt, a left-hander, still in the game? On a small-sample-size level, Goldschmidt is 0 for 5 against Affeldt and 3 for 7 against Sergio Romo, who is very rarely asked to get four outs. More importantly, it doesn’t really matter if Goldschmidt faces left-handers or right-handers. In fact, he actually has a higher OPS against right-handers (1.031) than left-handers (.975).

Bochy had Jean Machi up, but this wasn’t a tough decision. “I don’t know what you want me to say,” he said.

Bochy didn’t want to intentionally walk Goldschmidt either, saying he didn’t want to put the winning run into scoring position. “Jeremy has done such a good job,” Bochy said. “He’s throwing the ball as well as anybody.”

Minutes after Bochy addressed the media, Santiago Casilla limped out of the showers on crutches. A month ago, that’s probably Casilla’s spot. But Bochy’s decision came down to Affeldt or Machi, and he chose Affeldt, who quickly went 2-0 on Goldschmidt. He tried to throw a third ball down and away but it cut back over the edge of the plate. It was the first homer against Affeldt since June 5 of last season.

“It was just dumb, honestly,” Affeldt said. “There’s no other way to put it. I wasn’t even trying to throw a strike and I did. The ball was on the corner and he’s a strong, good, powerful hitter. Everything about that was wrong on my part.

“It was dumb all the way around and I paid for it.”

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— Cain didn’t get the win or the loss, but he took another step back in the Cain direction. This was what the Giants are used to, and it built off of the strange start that Cain had in St. Louis, where he felt he threw very well for five of six innings.

“It’s just one start,” Cain said. “You use all the positives you can and keep building, but you can’t get ahead of yourself.”

After the top of the eighth, Cain ran back out for the bottom of the inning. He was standing on the mound before some of the Diamondbacks fielders had even approached the dugout. It was clear: Cain was back in a groove and he was eager to keep going.

“Cain was outstanding,” Bochy said. “He had good poise and got settled in and threw quality strikes. He was hitting his spots and used all his pitches. That’s quite a job he did in this ballpark.”

The loss is a very tough one to swallow, but there was a silver lining. If Cain turns into Cain again, the Giants have much brighter days ahead.

— Of course, they’ll have to get past these Diamondbacks, who now have a 3 1/2 game cushion on the defending champs. As we’ve seen this year, the Diamondbacks fight until the end just like the Giants do, and they’re going to be a tough out. Patrick Corbin remains 9-0 and was outstanding tonight. Goldschmidt might be the league MVP when all is said and done. Cain said “I feel for Jeremy” because he put a runner on ahead of the left-hander’s appearance. But he also likely feels for Affeldt because Cain nearly became the one to give up a three-run homer to Goldschmidt. Twice in the first inning Goldschmidt hit balls deep but outside of the foul poles.

“He’s in that zone right now,” Cain said. “He’s not missing stuff. If you make mistakes they’re usually going to get hit hard or in the gap. If he makes a good swing and it’s a bad pitch, it’s off the wall or not coming back.”

— The Giants selected five college pitchers on the second day of the MLB Draft, some of whom are bullpen arms who may be able to move quickly. Cal Poly right-hander Chase Johnson will surely be a favorite of Mike Krukow, while I’m hoping shortstop Brandon Bednar (seventh round) makes it to camp at some point so we can ask him Dunk City questions. Left fielder Tyler Horan tied a Cape Cod Legaue record last summer with 16 homers. For bios on all the Day 2 picks, you can go to the Giants draft tracker page.

— Hard to place much blame on a lineup when Corbin takes the mound, but this is a pretty ugly stretch now against good pitchers and bad. The Giants were averaging just 2.4 runs per game in their previous nine games and then got just one tonight. They’ve lost seven of 10.

— One more post-game note: Chad Gaudin is officially the Sunday starter.

Alex Pavlovic

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Thanks Alex
Much appreciated.
They are still figuring things out on the fly without Casilla. Affeldt made a mistake but Goldschmidt is locked in right now. He is not missing anything and probably sitting outside corner. You have to give him credit to hit that ball out. Just can’t let him beat you when the game is on the line. Make Montero do it.

pacman68

You can’t let guys like Goldschmidt beat you. Come on Bochy…you used to pitch to Bonds all the time and it burned you. Do not let this guy beat you.

Giants offense is terrible without Pagan and they better be careful. They could be in the cellar in the matter of weeks.

SurfCity

That is truly depressing, Pacman. 3.5 games out of first and 4 games out of last.

ClutchUp

Brian Bednar: Giants love those BB names.

ClutchUp

Brandon Bednar*

pacman68

SurfCity

Dodgers have new life with Greinke and their rookie
Padres are not that bad
Rockies are still tough but don’t have pitching.
The snakes have better pitching right now.

It’s going to be a crazy summer but the Giants have lost 7-10. That is not good.

Kp49ers

Always tough to repeat but sure looks like 2011 again.. Just not their year.

Beentheredonethat

“but he took another step back in the Cain direction. This was what the Giants are used to, and it built off of the strange ”

One could read this as ‘a step back’ as in regressing….or…’another step, back in the Cain direction..’

Linguistic people:have at it..

The Oracle

I agree with those questioning Bochy’s moves in the 8th, but something else was annoying as well, even though it had nothing to do with the outcome. I was only listening, not watching, but apparently Noonan was in the on-deck circle when the final out was made. Noonan is 5 for his last 46. I though that Pill was here as a third first baseman because he provides some “pop” off the bench? Down two runs and down to your final out…wouldn’t that have been the time for some “pop”?

It seems ridiculous to be such a slave to the lefty-righty matchup that you’d send up the mightily struggling Noonan simply because he’s left handed. If Bochy doesn’t want to use Pill in situations like that, there really is no point in having him on the roster.

Finally, at 9:26 of the prior thread, an obviously disgusted Woj says “…well done G-men you quitters.” With this comment, Woj revels most clearly how irrationally negative he is. Quitters? Remember last October? How many elimination games did they win? How many comebacks have we seen this season? They may be struggling, but quitters? Not even close.

Angry Dan

Not having Romo ready to face Goldschmidt tonight was one of the worst in-game managerial mistakes Bochy has made in a few years. Once Affeldt struck Parra out for the 2nd out of the 8th inning, why is Romo not warming up just in case the inning got to Goldschmidt with the tying and lead runners on base? It’d be a different story if Romo had pitched the night before, but he hasn’t pitched since Tuesday.

Goldschmidt was 0-5 career against Affeldt but 3-7 career against Romo? Extremely small sample size. Goldschmidt has raked lefties his entire career and Romo’s slider is usually death to righties.

Romo’s too fragile for a 4-out save? He just had one on Sunday against St. Louis. I’d see the point if he had pitched a lot lately, but he’s only thrown 1 easy inning in the last 4 days.

Walk Goldschmidt? You can’t walk the bases loaded and move the tying run to 3rd and the lead run to 2nd. There should be a drinking game every time Krukow mentions an “open base” when the open base is at 3rd base (or anywhere for that matter).

Only logical reason Romo wasn’t used tonight? Undisclosed injury, possibly Pill running Romo over for the last out on Tuesday? I hope not. I’d much prefer a Bochy mega brain fart over a nagging injury for Romo.

pacman68

And why do the Giants wait so long to put Pagan on the DL? Kieschnick must have done something to piss Sabean and Bochy. They won’t call this guy up for nothing.

Just wondering

Hard to understand how Affeldt can know its stupid now but didn’t know a fastball was stupid at the time.

Just wondering

Lets not forget … the Giants asked to get beat when the refused to do anything to manufacture a run so that they would have some margin for error.

I expected the Giants to be prepared to be aggressive and opportunistic. Instead, they played, and Bochy managed, like it was a spring training game.

Wait …. the Giants did all kinds of running in spring now that I think about it. They have considerable speed that Bochy is choosing not to use while the offense slumps.To not attempt a bunt or steal in a game like this is just not playing the game right.

Still, nothing compares to not knowing Goldschmidt can clobber a fastball.

Mavo

No excuse for not having your closer in there to pitch to Goldschmidt!! I usually agree with Bochy … but not this time.

And my first impression of the groundball that Pollack beat out … Pablo should NOT have backed up and taken that short hop. He needs to know how fast Pollack is and come in to field that ball in the air and throw. That, not throwing Romo and Affeldt’s brain fart cost them an important game!

Their in a stretch now where the baseball Gods are not being kind to them! When they make any small mistake … it beats them! This will even out over the long season. But it is hard to take right now!!

Go Giants!!

Reaper

Tito, and all those fools questioning Cain during the game. Was it Affeldt’s fault? Should he be cut and denigrated? You all are pathetic. Bald head and several others should be banned!

that_guy-mike

oh my god people
( yes my spelling is gonna suck but it’s 430am and could care less )
all you ppl have no faith
wtf really you ppl are pathetic you make me laugh
as soon as Bruce makes a bad decisions or a pitcher makes a bad pitch your all over them
like our guys havnt hit any mistakes out, you guys will be all over out guys for throwing a bad pitch
ya I know our rotation is in a rut
but it’s not even the break yet and were still playing .500 ball
just a little faith
idk why I even bother coming to this blog any more cuz of your stupid faithless comments I do enjoy reading how you guys will manage so much better or maybe you can trow a 90mph 2seamer on the black and hit your spots 98% of the time ya I don’t think you can lol
ahhh good times gotta love the ol giants “faithful” pshhh
haha
anyways I’m sure your guys would love to know how much faith you have in them
cuz in all the films about them all you hear about is ” the fans” the fans and how great they are if it wasn’t for them and so on so on
ok I’m done I’m out Ambian is kicking in
you guys suck

kyle Perizi

So close to a great win. Time to regroup and start hoarding away some Ws. Long way to go yet.

ClutchUp

Nice to see you Mavo!

Good points Reaper…Oracle and especially

ClutchUp

….especially That Guy Mike…

johnfromnj

Last 3 seasons it’s been about roles, often figured out on the fly like when Wilson went down early last season. They don’t quite have the roles filled out right now. The 4-out
save is great for the classic closer. Romo is not a classic closer.

The #1 run-producing RH hitter in the league has to face the RH set-up guy there.
To walk him moves the go-ahead run to 2b. Machi must now feel like he is not ready for prime-time since his manager got him up, got him warm and then did not use him.
An unproven Casilla once got his shot. Why not Machi, a pitcher who Bochy was raving about not too long ago?

If Casilla gets the ball there, then Machi should get the ball there.
Casilla is a long ways away from coming back.
If Bochy can’t count on Machi, then send Ramirez or Kontos down and call up Hembree.

comouomo

not our year..that’s ok…2 out of 3 is great….i predict we finish 4th. in the west…….

Say Hey

LOL.

Lefty

It was a tough loss last night. I’m still taking some encouragement from this past week. I thought the Giants hit rock bottom with that 15-1 doubleheader last week started by our two top-of-the-rotation aces. Since then, it hasn’t been stellar, but there are some positive signs:

–six games in a row now with no errors
–three quality starts in four games, and even Zito’s start wasn’t that bad
–excellent bullpen work except for that one pitch by Affeldt

The offense has gone cold–it had to happen–but I’m not that worried about it (yet). Angel’s been out and Pablo’s not 100%. And in the past week they’ve faced:
–Shelby Miller
–Adam Wainwright
–Josh Johnson
–R.A.D.
–Patrick Corbin

Miller, Wainwright, and Corbin are all in the top SIX in ERA in the NL right now. R.A.D. is the reigning NL Cy Young winner. Johnson when healthy is an excellent pitcher (and the Giants beat him). In other words, three of the very hottest pitchers in MLB this year plus two guys who can be outstanding on any given day. The sixth pitcher was Cardinals’ rookie Lyons, and they beat him.

That is quite a run of starters in one six-game period, especially for a lineup that’s a little banged up. Show me how they do against a normal range of pitchers, and I’ll tell you how worried I am about the offense.

ClutchUp

Real fans don’t look for every single negative item when there’s another game today, tomorrow and then another and another and another.

But that’s ok the 25 guys know at least THEY have each others backs.

As you were…

MLBFAN36

Let Cain finish, guy gives up one infield hit and he has to be pulled? Give me a break. Pitch count was 104 when he pulled him. Pathetic

TheObserver

Although it is only one game and there is plenty of time left, this one was bad. I bet if Bochy had it to do over again Sergio would have been out there for a four out save (provided he is healthy). Like Angry Dan said, he did it on Sunday against the Cards. This could have been a “statement” game, the statement being that we can compete and prevail in your place against your best. We just have to wash this one off and move on but as much as i respect and admire Bochy, this one is on him.

Lefty

Clutch: Obviously anyone who’s ready to jump off a ledge after one tough loss in early June needs to chill out. But dissecting the games one at a time–good and bad–is part of the fun of following a baseball season closely.

I was on that ledge myself after that doubleheader in St. Louis, but Chad “I named my kid Gator” Gaudin got me to back away. And vintage outings from Lincecum and Cain did a lot to improve my mood. So did clean, well executed defense like Torres’s two catches down the LF line in Timmy’s game, Blanco’s diving catch in Zito’s game, the two DPs last night, and Belt’s excellent play fielding a short hop and throwing out the runner at the plate in what was then a scoreless tie.

The Giants know that if they pitch and field the ball, they always have a chance to win games. It was disorienting when they were doing neither. Now they’re doing both again. I’m feeling much better. 2-2 since that miserable doubleheader a week ago? I’ll take that. Things are headed in the right direction.

Lefty

I’m not one to defend Bochy’s in-game decisions no matter what. But I think last night was just one of those things.

–If Bochy didn’t pull Cain in the eighth and he coughed up the lead, we’d all have been screaming about why Bochy left Cain in so long. You know I’m right.
–Affeldt had only given up one HR since 2011.
–Goldschmidt had never gotten a hit off Affeldt.
–Goldschmidt hits righties even better than lefties this season.
–Goldschmidt was 3-7 with 3 RBIs off Romo.
–Bochy didn’t have another RH set-up guy he trusted more than Affeldt. Kontos has been struggling. Ramirez? Please. (Why is he still here, anyway?) Maybe Machi, but Machi is still a rookie, and that’s a tough spot to put him in.
–Goldschmidt could very well end up being the NL MVP this year. He’s the hottest hitter in baseball not named Miguel Cabrera.

You can second-guess Bochy because it didn’t work out, but I don’t see any obvious reasons to criticize the choice of Affeldt there. The loss is on Affeldt throwing a bad pitch to the wrong guy. That’s Affeldt’s version, too. End of story.

Matthew

I don’t feel any different this AM than I did last night, which aligns with Affeldt’s stand up statements: it was a bad pitch that wasn’t executed right against a locked in stud hitter. It happens…it happens to all teams at times.

I wish we were scoring more and being more aggressive. I wish I could predict Bruce’s moves less. I still trust him as a late season manager after building a solid belief and understanding of everyone on his roster-they know their roles because he has solidified them through his consistency. During the season, trends, slumps, streaks can make those consistent moves backfire. He is asking all of us to have faith in that a bump in June is worth it for a ring in October. It is very tough for us to keep that faith…but hasn’t he given us hope? We can question and disagree at these moves game by game…but don’t lose hope. That’s plain silly.

What I find interesting is the fact that Bruce pointed out how Pablo played the grounder by Pollock. I intended to write ” Arias would have made that play”, but delayed as I thought it would start a firestorm pointing to my anti-Pablo tendencies. I am hugely disappointed in his personal habits that have led to this huge weight issue that seems to affect his play every night. I know I belabor. lefty rightly pointed out last night that he plays his hardest and is very athletic. Yes. I, however, sit here waiting for him to be affected..not getting down on grounders, not taking an extra base because he is stuck in first gear, etc. it is somewhat unfair that I wait for that failure…

If I am Pablo’s teammate, I love his rallying attitude. I am disappointed that his selfish habit affect both him and the team I am on.

New day. 4 games out with about 100 to play is no big deal. Play well every game : lose some, win most.

Go Giants!

Sam

With the scored tied, Affeldt walked Avisail Garcia to start the eighth inning. Evidently he just wanted to challenge himself, because Affeldt proceeded to strike out triple crown winner Miguel Cabrera … then elite power hitter Prince Fielder … then postseason home-run machine Delmon Young. Affeldt then opened the ninth inning by striking out Andy Dirks. He’d get a flyout off the bat of Jhonny Peralta before departing.
So in 1 2/3 innings, Affeldt recorded four strikeouts while allowing no one past first base, even though he was facing the meat of the Tigers’ order late in a tie game. Still, the back-to-back-to-back K’s of Cabrera, Fielder and Young were most impressive.
——–
Yet people are calling for Jean Machi. LOL

TheObserver

Lefty,
With all due respect, name any pitcher that would have been tougher on Goldy in that situation than a healthy Sergio with his nasty slider. Sure, Affeldt is a fine pitcher and mistakes do happen, but I’d rather lose that game with Sergio on the mound properly matched up against that hitter than pitch around him with a lefty and move the winning run into scoring postion with a walk. It was just a bad decision by Bochy, period.

Foothills Ryan

Good morning. It is a new day. Hey nonny-nonny, bright and bonny…

Some sad, frustrated posts. And some good posts. Oracle, Angry Dan, Lefty…

…good posts.

Clutch, I love the Kilroy gravatar. You are a man of many faces. I was inspired.

What, me worry about The Giants? Not when I’ve embraced Zen detachment from one team – or severed my irrational attitudes of submission to authority (there’s your Chomsky riff, we haven’t heard from him in a while).

How about that Puig guy? As many out of the park homeruns as our left fielders and centerfielders combined on the season to date. That’s an interesting stat, that does not reflect winning percentage, but ultimately could.

Baseball is a great game. There’s a lot going on outside Giants land. The A’s may very well be atop the AL power rankings. They’re on a roll. They have everything going for them, especially the TEAM chemistry. And most importantly, pitching from 1 thru 12.

It’s a fun season so far. The Dodgers and Nats aren’t doing so well, so far. Much to the chagrin of their owners and GMs. That’s life in baseball. Zach Wheeler and Gerrit Cole are in line to make their major league debuts next week. Biogenesis scandal, all sorts of good stuff going on. The trade deadline is getting closer.

Matt Cain pitched a great game last night and it made for a very exciting game. I enjoyed myself. Then it was time to finish Season 2 of G of T. Sure, some head shaking with the bomb, but Goldschmidt is an exciting player. So is Didi Gregorious and Patrick Corbin. How about ol’ Heath Bell shutting the door? Just like the good old days.

Better luck today for the Giants. I, for one, am not worried.

ClutchUp

Here’s my version.

There are power hitters and then there are power hitters.

Miguel Cabrera is a SMART power hitter.
Goldschmidt is a SMART power hitter.

Goldschmidt prolly knew after pitch one or two what was “going on”. Thus like Cabrera did to Cain in the WS, Goldy changed his zone for which he was looking.

That “inside part of the ball” swing that Goldy took was picture-hitting-video perfect. That ball was GONE upon impact.

Somebody, maybe Affeldt, maybe Doughnut said “it wasn’t even a good pitch” exactly, but it WAS exactly the location Goldy was looking for.

Both Cabrera vs Cain in the WS and Goldy last night “imparted” reverse spin on their balls and both left their respective parks with ease. Detroits ally was a joke but Miguel is and has always been smart and Goldy had a hitting plan and worked his plan.

Failing to plan is preparing to fail. Affeldt can’t walk Bloomie BUT he did. I don’t push the winning run to second either but I throw four in the dirt to load em or get Goldy to Fish.

If we need to go to Romo to get Goldy and Montero leads off the B9th … so be it, its stil 1 to 0.

@Lefty: fans can be on pins and needles or critique and manage during the game…I do it. I’m talking about those who Just Wonder…if they’ve quit, why they don’t sqeeze every inning, why they don’t drag every inning and why they don’t steal every inning. Those are fanatics. Stealing a base is all stopwatch math. Can’t steal on a ML fastball off a lefty move.

3rdNking

let’s pitch to the maybe #1 Giants killer of all time

genius

freaking genius…and millions are paid for that logic…

garbage

Foothills Ryan

Fun post by Sam.

Speaking of fun. Haven’t checked in on the Brandon Belt since 4/19 O-meter in a while.

Once he had thrown two pitches low and Goldschmidt didn’t bite what was the point of trying to throw two more down there ? He’s the hottest hitter there is right now. They were going to walk him anyway by pitching around him. Should have intentionally walked him after two balls.

3rdNking

closer to first or closer to last

after today we will know

fan grapher

Nevermind the statistics from the first baseman. The outfielders not named Hunter Pence are the problem. Raise your hand if you thought Andres Torres would be the Giants second best outfielder in 2013.

Pence has a 127 RC+
Torres 102
Blanco 81
Pagan 94

100 is equal to league average run production. Average the three non Pence outfielders and the production is significantly below the mean.

KezarFan

Can’t be formulaic on the road, against first-place team, facing their most dangerous hitter, one-run lead.

Eighth inning or ninth, that WAS a save situation. You gotta have your closer in the game at that point. Get past Goldschmidt, you can deal with the rest of their lineup any of various ways. But not going with your best vs. their best is simply stupid. Bochy out-managed himself this time.

larry

Time to trade Sandoval to an American League team for a decent fast-throwing flame-throwing pitcher. He’s over-rated as a player. What’s he done lately for the Giants? Answer: nothing! Gotten any RBI’s lately? No. What he’s done is eat like a pig and put on more weight. Arias would have handled that play better. It’s too bad he hasn’t been playing more. Remember last year? He filled in nicely for Sandoval and was hitting the ball. He’s wasting away on the bench. Sandoval can be a DH on an American League team. Maybe Cleveland will take him.
Pitching does seem to be coming around, and it’s too bad that Cain and Bumgarner have had a few wasted starts on the mound. Yet, it’s not easy with tired “playoff” arms. Few teams make WS apearances back-to-back with the three tier playoffs since the mid-90′s. I was wrong to have submitted a post a few weeks ago. Cincinnati is the last NL team to go back to back, in ’76 and ’77. The Yankees have, and lastly ’98,’99, and 2000. But their record shows how extra playoff games affected their pitching, going from 114 wins to 95 wins to a lowly 87 win regular season the last year of that WS run. They added Clemens in ’99. So, Sabean bringing on Chad Gaudin was a smart move, but getting a real started during the offseason would have been a better and smarter move.

Sam

Arias was already in the game at SS

larry

Lefty: There’s way too many games that have been lost since May 12. Way too many. The Giants are digging themselves into a hole. It’s time they started winning again. It’s time to stop the excuses.
It’s time that they start hitting when leadoff hitters get on base. I don’t care whose pitching on the other team: since May 12 the Giants have MADE too many opposing pitchers look like Cy Young Award Winners. This team is starting to look way too much like 2011, when Huff, Ross, and Burrell forgot what it was like to get a base hit.

Matthew

Sam, I think we al know Arias was in the game…the point is not that Arias should have been at third, but that Arias would have made that play. Unrelated to Bochy, simply related to Sandoval.

MLBSF

Matthew says:
June 8th, 2013 at 7:51 am

New day. 4 games out with about 100 to play is no big deal. Play well every game : lose some, win most.

——–

Yea, you keep telling yourself that Matthew. smh
This is 2011 all over again. Believe me.

Well I know for sure I’m not the only one who covers his eyes whenever Affeldt comes in. Seems like dude gets hammered just about every tune he comes in. I have zero confidence in him.

Looks like my prediction of the Giants going 4-14 over this 18 game stretch is right on track. They’ve lost an embarrassing 7 of 10 so far and it’s not getting any easier. They might get one more win before they finish up in Atlanta, but I think more than likely we will be coming home below .500.

Very, very disappointing to say the least. I hope Sabean has some deals in the works because this team is going nowhere.

Hermann

Last night, Bochy could have pitch hit for Cain in the top of the second, with two out and two on, but didn’t.

Did he really think one run would hold up?

Pretty clear the Giants need more offense, its not just the pitching. At the same time, eschews starting Pill and Belt at the same time. One should be in left, the other at first, every day.

Instead, Bochy treats Pill, who was the RBI leader in all baseball, like all the younger players who come up under him. He starts a game, goes 0 for two, then pitch hits for him (using Belt) in an RBI situation. Pill a week ago, went 0 for four in one game, and has been on the bench ever since.

Goldschmidt had an ofer last night before hitting his home run. Pill has had some success in the majors, but always on a short leash. Why not have Pill and Belt in the same lineup, instead of competing against each other? If Pill hit behind Belt, does it not make sense that Belt would benefit by seeing better pitches?

In center, that would mean Blanco or Torres right now. I think Torres gets that nod.

Hermann

I meant top of the seventh above, not second

MLBSF

Also I think it’s time for the Pablo Sandoval apologists to emerge from their denial and admit that his fatness outweighs (so to speak) any benefits he provides via his bat.

He is absolutely our best hitter (although some would argue it is Posey). But be that as it may, Pablo is a physical mess.

I’ve already been over all of the problems his weight is causing, but he needs to get it together. Maybe he needs to go into a fat farm version of rehab or something. But it’s shocking and unacceptable that a talented young professional athlete like himself is so uninterested in his physical fitness.

I do not get it.

johnfromnj

Why has my post been awaiting moderation for over 6 hours? I thought one of the ideas of blog posts was for your post to have a logical connection to the posts preceding it.

johnfromnj

and how did the one I posted just get through? Oh well, back to the Bay Area Sports forum where posts do not require approval to get on.

MLBSF

@47

I keep asking the same question about why so many posts are being flagged, but apparently the first rule of the fight club is …

Stin

Lefty- Excellent point at #22. I’m suddenly much more at ease. Might be the toughest stretch of opposing pitching for the season…

Sam

Yeah more playing time for Arias will fix everything. Excellent take.

Foothills Ryan

Harsh but painfully true posts by Larry.

Sabean and Bochy are not having the magical years they’ve had in the past. To their surprise, the formula of years past does not work every game or every year. They will have to dig into their bag of tricks.

As fangrapher noted, and as I alluded to, the left field and centerfield positions have become a vacuum on offense. Sure, a vacuum on defense for the better, but the offense from those positions is looking the worse. No poder !

I don’t know what kind of medicine that is actually. That outfield looks a lot better than the Giants. Chris Young and Josh Reddick will get their numbers. Sure, Coco Crisp will come down to earth, but at some point, Cespedes is going to take off. And I think the A’s will run away with the AL West. Dang, that’s crazy.

Ralphie

The biggest reason Affeldt should not have pitched to Goldschmidt, besides the fact that he is the best hitter in the league, is that Affeldt clearly did not have his good stuff last night. He’s either unhittable or he has no idea where his pitches are going. The moment he WALKED WILLIE BLOOMQUIST he should have been out of the game. I would rather have had Machi pitch to Goldschmidt than a wild Affeldt.

As far as Pill goes, he’s not playing because he can’t hit major league breaking pitches. Doesn’t matter what he did at AAA. Todd Linden had a lot of good seasons at AAA.

Giants need to get Kieschnick up here.

Michael

Goldschmidt was 0-5 against Affeldt, Affeldt has been pitching well, and he had been equally successful against both RHers and LHers. It’s debatable whether pitching around Goldschmidt was the best stratgegy, and Affeldt, in his words made “a dumb pitch to a dumb location”- but walking Bloomquist was the real sin, and Pablo misplayed Pollock’s grounder. Goldschmidt never shouild have batted. Tonight is a the perfect time for MadBum to show why many think he’s CY material.
As to Pablo- he made a judgement on a tough grounder and was wrong by half a step. He is, in fact, a plus defender at third base. Maybe he shouldn’t be playing, he’s obviously hurting.. but at least he wants to play.

Lefty

Larry: Yes, they haven’t played well the past few weeks. To me, though, there is a difference between HOW they lost–say in that awful 1-5 road trip to Toronto and Denver–and how they’ve played the past week against a really tough stretch of starters.

To me if the pitching and defense is solid, they always have a chance. Several weeks ago, it was the opposite of solid (liquid?). This past week, it’s been much better. I do take some positives about that.
————–
MLBSF: As you know, I object to the word “apologists” to describe a team’s fans, but I’ll take on your question about Sandoval.

1. No disagreement that he needs to get and stay in shape.
2. From what I’ve heard (beat writers, OMT who’s been going to games all year) and seen on TV, he has visibly lost weight since the season started. Hopefully he’ll keep it up.
3. I don’t see how that play on the infield hit in the eighth can be attributed to his weight. He misplayed it by stepping back.
4. He was the only guy to have two hits off Corbin last night, and he scored the only run, in part because of hustle–extra weight, injured foot, and all.

I know those of you who have decided to make Pablo your scapegoat for things that frustrate you about the Giants aren’t going to listen to any of this. But I think it’s ridiculous. He’s the team’s RBI leader, he’s arguably their most talented hitter, and he was the World Series MVP. I would think that would earn some loyalty and respect, but I guess I’d be wrong.

Foothills Ryan

Harsh but painfully true posts by Larry.

Sabean and Bochy are not having the magical years they’ve had in the past. To their surprise, the formula of years past does not work every game or every year. They will have to dig into their bag of tricks.

As fangrapher noted, and as I alluded to, the left field and centerfield positions have become a vacuum on offense. Sure, a vacuum on defense for the better, but the offense from those positions is looking the worse. No poder !

I don’t know what kind of medicine that is actually. That outfield looks a lot better than the Giants. Chris Young and Josh Reddick will get their numbers. Sure, Coco Crisp will come down to earth, but at some point, Cespedes is going to take off. And I think the A’s will run away with the AL West. Dang, that’s crazy.

Foothills Ryan

Harsh but painfully true posts by Larry.

Sabean and Bochy are not having the magical years they’ve had in the past. To their surprise, the formula of years past does not work every game or every year. They will have to dig into their bag of tricks.

As fangrapher noted, and as I alluded to, the left field and centerfield positions have become a vacuum on offense. Sure, a vacuum on defense for the better, but the offense from those positions is looking the worse. No poder !

I don’t know what kind of medicine that is actually. That outfield looks a lot better than the Giants. Chris Young and Josh Reddik will get their numbers. Sure, Coco Crisp will come down to earth, but at some point, Cespedes is going to take off. And I think the A’s will run away with the AL West. Dang, that’s crazy.

Foothills Ryan

Lefty,

Posey is the Giants most talented hitter. Working the count, talking walks is a hitting skill. Sandoval is the best bad ball hitter in the league with uncanny eye hand coordination. Right now, Hunter Pence has been more productive. And if anybody wants to blame injuries on Sandoval’s decline in production, that’s fair, but we we anticipated some injuries from an injury prone, over-weight ballplayer. Meanwhile Hunter Pence plays every inning of every game. Brandon Belt may be the team’s 3rd best run producer, the way Sandoval is going.

It is what it is. Maybe Sandoval should be DL’d like Pagan. I don’t understand their reluctance to get players healthy. Are they supposed to be tough guys? Well, the team is suffering for it.

As it turned out, of course, the newly elevated Posey and Pence went 0-8 while the newly dropped Sandoval went 2-4. Still–it’s the thought that counts.

Oh, and Foothills–Reddick’s been injured for much of the season. Give him time. And yes, the A’s are going to win the West. And the AL pennant. Even if Bartolo Colon gets suspended again.

Michael

Foots: after a slow start, Torres is .298 BA .355 OBP .829 OPS over the last 4 weeks. That’s hardly a vacuum.

Foothills Ryan

More fun with Sandoval:

I asked my wife what adjective you ‘d use to describe Sandoval. Husky? Stout? Not quite fat?

She said “chunky”. I laughed.

She’s seems really good at this game, so I told her Brandon Belt was the “baby giraffe” which is not a good nick name. She one upped that one:

“overgrown puppy”

Will check back with Hunter Pence and Brandon Crawford descriptors when I get them.

Cheers!

Lefty

Hahaha. Took me a minute to figure out why I got moderated. I knew I hadn’t used any a$$ words. Now I understand why Foothills misspelled the last name of “Josh, the OF for the A’s.” I have similarly misspelled it in my re-post below.
=====================

As it turned out, of course, the newly elevated Posey and Pence went 0-8 while the newly dropped Sandoval went 2-4. Still–it’s the thought that counts.

Oh, and Foothills–Reddik’s been injured for much of the season. Give him time. And yes, the A’s are going to win the West. And the AL pennant. Even if Bartolo Colon gets suspended again.

Foothills Ryan

Michael,

U B right. It was posted above that his RC+ is a hair over 100. So he’s not the problem. Blanco has been frio. Pagan not so good. So Torres back in center and let’s call up Pat Burrell like it’s 2010. :–)

stickman

Missed the whole affair last night. Got rained out at my gardening and bounded for the local pub. Stayed there a few hours. Got home after the game was all over. Some observations after much reading:

One missing ingredient and one bad pitch. Game. Missing ingredient which Bochy has been doing what he can to overcome is the near certainty of the Affeldt-Casilla pairing for the late inning setup spots. But no Casilla. Choices limited. Ramirez for Dunnington might positively readjust the bullpen. Hembree is close…and tempting…but maybe not quite ready for a big role in The Show. So give Jake the call. DFA RR.

It’s been mentioned again and again on the blog and probably elsewhere in Giantsville, but wth is Noonan doing for the team right now? Seems decent enough in the field with some versatility, but utterly and totally clueless at the plate. Makes for a weak bench. Would like to see Perez get some STARTING time. Pronto. He has shown a lot at Fresno, both at the plate and versatility in the field. Evidently runs well too.

One prime positive to be drawn from last night’s game can be seen in a pre-game comment on one of yesterday’s threads, to the effect that Patrick Corbin may be the best pitcher in the NL right now. Well Arizona’s ace happened to get matched by a big ol’ Alabama native known to Giants fans as The Horse. Virtually the same IP and pitch-count. Identical number of baserunners. Each gave up one run in 7+.
Point of all this is that in a statement game which SF lost on a poorly played grounder at 3B and a poorly placed pitch by Affeldt, a certain Matt Cain rose to the occasion and proved he can go toe to toe with any ace out there.

Starting pitching shows signs of coming around. The comedy of errors seems to have pretty mostly spent itself. Main problems right now appear to be a missing late-inning BP link and a relatively weak bench.
The latter can be addressed by Bochy during the remainder of Pagan’s absence: PLAY PEREZ. Find out what he can do. Pagan returns and its time for Noonan to get some steady reps ~ on the Fresnobus.

Matthew

Lefty, I listen to everything. I think both points of view are right. He is one of the leaders as a hitter. He can be a good fielder, thogh does have misplays like they all do. He does lead in RBI. Yes, he was WS MVP and he does have our loyalty…but there are many, many players in this team who had great posts seasons who deserve loyalty as well and get little (even some don’t always get loyalty from you): Cain, Affeldt, Lincecum, Blanco, and so on.

We can, and likely will, keep this debate going. We each have our side and neither is wrong.

He is good. He is fat. He means a great deal to this team. He could be better.

We are both right.

Lefty

Foothills:

Tidy theory:

1) Sandoval’s slumped over the last few weeks.
2) His slump is because he was injured.
3) He’s injury-prone.
4) He gets injured because he’s overweight.

Facts:

1) Sandoval doesn’t “lack production” this season. He leads the team in RBIs–by quite a few. He’s second in home runs, 1 behind Pence.
2) He began slumping when he was so sick with the flu he could hardly stand. He had to take IV fluids so he could play.
3) He didn’t injure his foot until about 9 days after that. And there’s no particular reason to think the foot injury is weight-related. He only missed three games with that injury.
4) He’s played in 56 out of 60 games so far. Until he missed the three games in St. Louis with the foot injury, he’d missed only 1 game.

Conclusion: For an overweight, supposedly “injury-prone” guy, he’s stayed on the field through illness and injury and been one of the most productive hitters on the team this season.

Polioptila

It’s a pity Bochy didn’t give Gnatt Cain a shot at his own L. He was overdue to throw his own gopher ball to Goldschmidt.

Michael

The hamate injuries would hardly suggest that Pablo is injury prone and even the most avid Sandoval detractor could not attribute those injuries to his weight. Other than those two injuries, Panda had missed a total of 42 games in 4 full seasons and 4 in 60 games this year.
As far the postseason last year, of course there are others who deserve props (and have received them). But he was the only position player to excel in all three rounds of the postseason.
He may be the most maligned career .300 hitter in the game.

Foothills Ryan

Stickman, you are the best !

But isn’t Matt Cain a good ol’ boy from Tennessee ??

Also, did you see what the “Persian Cat” did the other night? I thought of you when I saw his line. Enjoy the gardening today. I’m watering. Got to water the cows too. It’s HOT in Cali. Darn CO2.

Matthew

…and Tim may be the most maligned 2 time Cy Young Award winner in the league. And Bochy may be the most maligned 2 time World Series winner in all of baseball management. And Sabean….well, you get the point.

And I get all of your points. Pablo is productive. Perhaps some of us are being fatalists, but I do think the end is just around the corner for the guy. He said he would deal with his weight in two years…magically coinciding with free agent years.

He can carry this team at times, and to our amazing benefit, did so all last post season. This year, he appears to have reverted to his 2010 post season physique, and if you don’t think Sabean and Bochy are seething inside over this….

Perhaps those “bashing” are over the top a bit. Perhaps those ignoring the ticking time bomb of a body are under reacting a bit

Foothills Ryan

If you all want to suggest he isn’t injury prone, that’s fine. I put it out there a long time ago. The proof is in the pudding. And if he comes back strong and healthy and produces like a mad man, then I was totally wrong. But if he continues to have nagging injuries in his elbow, feet, knees, back, hammies, whatever, then I will have been right. Not that there’s a prize in being right about losing productivity from a very good hitter.

Take a gander at Sandoval’s OPS #’s as a Since 2008:

.847
.943
.732
.909
.789
.751

Gauging from those numbers and the weight he continues to carry or add, I’d anticipate high .700′s, maybe .800 from him but also wouldn’t be surprise if he finished the season at .750 or lower in the OPS dept.

Foothills Ryan

Matthew,

You are the best also!

I bet you guys can’t wait for the NL Power Rankings tomorrow morning.

I imagine the A’s could be a top the AL version. Exciting times in the Bay.

Skweezplay

Wow, some outstanding posts on the board this morning.

Love your observations, Matthew.

It was the walk in front of Goldschmidt that changed this game. Affeldt lost his mechanics just briefly, and then he had to face the big guy.

It was a tough game to lose, for sure, but it was great to see Cain pitch lights out.

Need to get back to scoring some runs. One or two a night will not produce many wins, no matter how good the pitching is.

Still gotta love these Giants. Do they have character or what?!

Lefty

Matthew, I’m not sure who you think I’ve been “disloyal” to. Cain? Sure, I’ve criticized some of his bad performances this year. And there have been some real stinkers. I’ve also praised him when he’s done well. But I’m pretty sure it’s always been about the performance and not his personal characteristics. For example, I’ve read comments here and elsewhere suggesting that Cain has lost his edge/focus because of the big contract and two World Series rings, but I don’t believe it for a minute.

Anyway. I don’t actually agree that there were “many, many players” who had great postseasons last year. The team hit something like .235 through the three rounds, and through the NLDS and much of the NLCS. The only two hitters who did well overall were the two guys who got MVP trophies, Scutaro and Sandoval. Other than them, I would highlight:

Others had great individual moments, like Posey’s grand slam in Cincinnati, Bumgarner’s Game 2 start in the World Series, Affeldt striking out Cabrera, Fielder, and Young in Game 4 of the World Series, and some sparkling defense by especially Blanco and Crawford.

But in my opinion, it really was a group effort–except for Scutaro and Sandoval, who did stand out from the rest.

Doughnut

I am sure the plan was to not give into Goldschmidt. If i remember the last series for the Giants vs. the Dbacks they were not giving him anything to hit even then. Right now he is the toughest hitter to hit in the NL. Like Clutch up said he was very smart to take that ball to RF. Well he has been doing that all year. I can not think of a tougher hitter to face in the NL right now. You have to pitch him down and away and if you miss they are not just base hits they are leaving the park.

If they bring in Romo the plan is still the same. Don’t give in to Goldschmidt. And if he walks him like he may have to do, then you don’t have to have Romo pitch to Montero and risk losing him for the game if you want to use Javy. Affeldt made a mistake by giving him a fastball anywhere near the plate on 2-0. But he made a bigger mistake walking Bloomquist. I am pretty sure he doesn’t want any of his pitchers going after him in that situation.

Things like this happen and they hurt like heck. But if anything it will hopefully only make Affeldt and the 8th inning spot a little bit better. Sometimes you need those bad losses to tighten things up and maybe that will be the case.

South City Jim

I had absolutely no problem with Affeldt pitching to Goldschmidt for the simple reason Montero, a LHB was on deck. It was incumbent on Affeldt to pitch around Goldschmidt in hopes he goes fishing or walks, unfortunately he laid one right in there. As Clutch noted, the location Goldschmidt was sitting on. I wouldn’t be surprised if Gibson told Goldschmidt “sit on one location and if it’s not there, let them walk you.”

Michael

Lefty, Scooter hit .150 in the NLDS, only Pablo hit well in every postgame series.

Lefty

Foothills: I’m sorry, but you’re still just making stuff up. WHAT “nagging injuries” does Sandoval have? The only one I can think of is the bone spur in his elbow (or whatever it is)–but Dave Groeschner said he’s had that since before the 2009 season–and he had a great year!

Other than the hamates–which can’t possibly be weight-related–he’s missed very little time in nearly five seasons in the big leagues. Hamstring strain last year? Missed 2 1/2 weeks. Not a big deal. Foot injury this year? Missed three games. Elbow? Missed one game. Flu? Missed no games.

You know who’s been injury-prone? Nate Schierholtz. Always one thing or another either putting him on the DL or making him ineffective. You know who else? Angel Pagan. He stayed on the field pretty well last season, but most of his career he’s missed significant time every season with injuries.

What do Nate and Angel have in common? They’re both in tip-top fabulous shape without an extra ounce on them.

Baseball players get hurt sometimes. Pablo’s actually been healthier than a lot of them. Show me a track record of missing lots of games (other than the hamates, which are gone now) due to injuries attributable to weight, and then maybe we have a discussion.

Lefty

Michael: Right, forgot that. Also, people who want to cap on Belt’s poor postseason fail to mention that he hit over .300 in the seven-game NLCS–below only Pablo and Scutaro.

Matthew

Lefty, if you limit your great postseason awards to just hitting, then you are correct. I hold to folks like Blanco, Timmy, Jeremy for their defense, pitching , etc.

Lively debate, and I’m cool with it if you are!

(Yes, I did mean Cain…and , yes, you keep comments to performances and don’t try to read into motivations. That is appreciated. )

Polioptila

Which comes first for Kung Fu Panza in 2013: a triple, or a triple bypass?

http://nada paul in p.v.

Could hardly sleep last night – Goldschmidt on the brain – can’t imagine what kinda night Affeltd had. He has tortured the Gints unmercifully ever since he broke in – they HAVE to pitch around him regardless of the situation. Their lineup is pretty ordinary otherwise.

The Bloomquist walk was akin to Zeet’s walk to Blanco the other night – death by a thousand cuts. It feels like every time the wheels have come off in these close games, it’s been due to unnecessary walks, by the whole staff. That’s why Gaudin’s start was so refreshing – he was just pumping strikes for a change.

p.s. I know Snorkel said 50% of Pablo was better than nothing – but he can’t run, his fielding is obviously affected, and he seems to be hitting off one foot. Bench him, and put him on Ensure for 15 days. Gilligan

Matthew

Just read all of your post Lefty… We align on that.

giantc

Clutch — If you are going to throw four in the dirt to Goldschmidt and as you say he is a smart power hitter you should just put him on base. Mistakes happen when you tell a pitcher to pitch around — in this case Bochy lost the game and of course blamed Sandoval for backing up and just missing a runner at first — chickens*** by Bochy. I firmly believe you do not let the potential MVP beat you in the 8th inning when there is a .200 hitter on deck that has sucked all year.

giantswon

Affelt should be fined $25,000 for walking the hitter ahead of Goldschmidt and Botchy should be fined $50,000 for not walking Goldschmidt. I wonder how many times Botchy walked Bonds in that situation. Make Montero beat you. Botchy is getting out managed this year. His ” gut feelings ” aren’t panning out. Oh well you can’t win it every year.

Foothills Ryan

Hi Lefty,

So I didn’t make up the bone spurs or whatever in his elbow, right? Those are still there and that is likely to resurface – likely to require offseason surgery.

And I didn’t make up the foot thing, right?

The broken hamates? How is his bone density?

Strained the hamstring last year, right?

Put your actuary hat on. What is his prognosis? Healthy the rest of the way? League -average healthy? Below average heatlhy?

And you are right about guys like Pagan and Schierholtz being injury prone. Some players are. They have tight hammies like Torres. Or they bang into a wall, hurt their shoulder and don’t seem to recover.

Nothing more to argue about here. You are vehemently defending Sandoval’s health record which isn’t sparkling. I just wouldn’t count on him playing a whole season without injury woes; this year, next year and certainly not beyond that.

That’s pretty much it :–)

kyle Perizi

I don’t know what’s going on in Venezuela but it sure is producing a lot of MLB talent. I’d like to see or read about how MLB has taken hold of Venezuela. I remember when Andres Galarraga was one of about 3 Venezuelans in the MLs ( 1985 ).

Matthew

Why do we have to wait until tomorrow for the Power Rankings? I’ll bet MLBSF would publish grades today if asked.

C’mon, Ryan..I want to say “Foothills Ryan, you are the best!” But I cannot do so, of sound mind, without the Power Rankings.

(My big fascination is whether the Puig flavored Kool Aid has you moving the Dodgers above the Giants….)

Foothills Ryan

Speaking of the draft and Goldschmidt…

eighth round Draft Day GOLD by the DBacks! This is almost Pujols territory of draft day steals. I know, I know, let’s see sustained performance before we call him Pujols-Lite.

8th Round !!

===

Bottom line on the game last night:

The game needed saving. If Affeldt can’t it done, then the bullpen blows the save. Can’t really depend on Romo to get all the big outs. Affeldt is Bochy’s #2 guy in the pen right now. Sh!t happened. Move on. Win today behind Bumgarner and it is mostly forgotten.

Foothills Ryan

Matthew,

There’s a lot riding on tonight’s game. The Dodgers will not move ahead of the Giants, rest assured. Not this week anyhow. But the Rockies just might. Phillies too! So big game if you are a big fan of Power Rankings ;–)

Foothills Ryan

Matthew,

There’s a lot riding on tonight’s game. The Dodgers will not move ahead of the Giants, rest a$sured. Not this week anyhow. But the Rockies just might. Phillies too! So big game if you are a big fan of Power Rankings ;–)

Michael

All of the players who contributed to the our great run to the title have received their richly deserved praise. ( I know you’re not responding to me, Matthew, but this is still a public blog). But the World Series MVP is always a special award in any year and it’s perfectly undertstandable for reasonable people to make special note of the winner of that prestigious honor.
Lefty- it’s interesting that maybe the only player who sucked throughout the postseason gets virtually no criticism for it- Pagan.

Foothills Ryan

Oh and for Lefty’s sake, me thinks the Nationals will fall behind the Giants.

#badNatitude

Stay tuned…

channelclemente

IMO,

Sandoval will go on the DL sooner or later. His wheels just can’t stand the pounding for a full season here, in the WBC, and Venezuela. I’d say, he needs to make some serious decisions that effect his future, pretty soon.

kyle Perizi

If the Gs fall behind la I’ll have to eat a lot of crow.

Michael

Foots, you didn’t make up anything but the fact remains that except for the hamate injuries, Panda pretty much plays through his injuries, as his games played proves ( 42 missed in 4 full years , 4 this year, except fot the hamates). It’s confirmable by reviewing his game logs.

Matthew

Michael – not intentionally leaving out a response…my agreement with the points you and Lefty made are up there somewhere.. You and I disagree on Pablo.

I would not be shocked if he blasted 3 home runs tonight. I would love the contribution. He’d still be fat and a ticking time bomb. The honor he got last year was deserved, and obviously he was key in our title run. My opinion on his weight issues in no way is meant to diminish those contributions.

The shelf life for food is greater if you follow prescribed handling instructions. Odd analogy, but the big fella needs to heed athletes shelf life handling instructions.

Polioptila

The Panza’s career is likely to be a short one.

stickman

Footsy: Though he mostly grew up across the border in the Volunteer State, Cain is a native of Dothan, Alabama. Though i have a number of issues with that state, the Heart of Dixie has produced some amazing baseball talent, including the greatest player in BB history as well as another Giant of renown, for whom a certain cove in China Basin has been named.

Michael

From the first year he came up I’ve said that keeping Panda on the field would be a challenge. But that was unrelated to his weight- his style of play is reckless and rough.
There was a great description of him at Baseball Prospectus that was related to his weight, BTW. Accurate, but unlike most, not mean spirited: “two Cirque du Soleil acrobats crammed into one uniform”..

Doughnut

It would be really rare for a manager to put up 4 fingers in that situation and give an IBB. I am not saying it would be wrong but i think pitching around and see if he chases isnt a horrible plan and probably a likely one. But you can’t give in and especially not on an 2-0 count where he is sitting dead red and knows the Giants have pitched him away the whole game.

I am still trying to figure out why in hell the they threw him a fastball in that situation. That makes no sense at all. Pitch needs to be buried in the dirt. If nothing else that pitch has to be down and you have to err on the side of caution. Don’t understand a fastball.

Michael

Have a nice day, folks. It’s going to be 109 here and I’m going to go find an ice cave…( I have a swamp cooler than functions beautifully when I test it in the winter )…

Polioptila

Which comes first for the Panza in 2013: a triple, or a triple bypass?

With you Michael – I just got my run in before it hit that… Stupid move. Only 105 high later today here. I feel blessed

http://yahoo battersbox

Said it yesterday, said it last year and the year before that…the Giants are going to have some interesting decisions to make with Pablo going forward. His physical condition along with the wear and tear of 162 MLB games will without a doubt cause further and continued nagging injuries. But even on top of this, defensively and on the bases he will and has undoubtedly already cost the Giants. He is a terrific hitter and clearly we need his bat but this issue will have to come to a head and soon.

Go Giants!

Lefty

Paul, not you, too!

Pablo was 2-4 last night, took third on a fly ball and scored the only run the Giants got. Why exactly should he be benched?
———

Seriously, I don’t get you guys. If you want to be mad at someone for last night’s game, how about the guy who served up the game-winning homer? Or the 3-4 hitters who went 0-8? What about that terrible AB Posey had after Scutaro’s double in the 8th, hacking at the first pitch right to SS for the 798th time this season?

Why is it open season on Pablo today? It just doesn’t make any sense to me.

This season, the Panza is likelier to undergo a triple bypass than hit a triple.

Matthew

We’re only keeping going what you’re keeping going , Lefty. I didn’t really see anyone saying that Pablo cost last nights game, but perhaps I skipped over that. I thought this was debate class, and it’s always open season on the Topic Of The Day. Is that a problem?

channelclemente

Lefty,

I really don’t think anyone is mad at Sandoval, at least I’m not. But, he should have had third on that hit, just as Scutaro should have. That’s 2 maybe 3 bases they gave up. Those add up to saved outs, and maybe a run or two. He’s a gifted athlete, no argument, but we’re getting only a fraction of what he could be delivering, IMO. It’s fair to notice, I think.

Polioptila

Bochy has no alternative but to play the Panza, but nobody should be surprised when he suffers a career-ending illness or injury.

Foothills Ryan

I think we’re going to see Star Trek.

Yep, we swamp cool and run fans here. It’s 100 already outside. Try to keep it below 90 in the house. I think we’ll surpass that today.

===

Michael & Lefty,

I guess it’s nice that Sandoval can play through injuries. But less nice when it saps his ability and turns him into a .750ish OPS guy.

So put your GM cap on Lefty. What would do with Sandoval? Ink him up to big extension, feeling confident that he’ll get the weight under control and that he won’t accrue more injuries and play more than 150 games per year?

Doughnut

CC
I don’t think anybody in the league goes from 1st to 3rd on that base hit by Belt. Parra has a cannon. Nobody ever runs on him especially not on that play. Angel Pagan probably would not have gone to 3rd on that one. Id put money on it. Parra has to try and fake people out to get them to run on him.

Foothills Ryan

I think we’re going to see Star Trek.

Yep, we swamp cool and run fans here. It’s 100 already outside. Try to keep it below 90 in the house. I think we’ll surpa$s that today.

===

Michael & Lefty,

I guess it’s nice that Sandoval can play through injuries. But less nice when it saps his ability and turns him into a .750ish OPS guy.

So put your GM cap on Lefty. What would do with Sandoval? Ink him up to big extension, feeling confident that he’ll get the weight under control and that he won’t accrue more injuries and play more than 150 games per year?

kyle Perizi

Many posters think they’re Gordon Ramsey and have in unison pointed the finger on the, ‘ Fat Kid,’ for the Gs’ current skid. The Gs would be in a lot deeper hole were it not for Pawbs. Let’s appreciate Pablo while he’s still with us.

Gotta get some Ws !

Lefty

CC: Pablo should have taken third on Belt’s hit to right you mean? But Pablo did take third on Arias’s fly ball and scored on Blanco’s single. How did that cost the Giants a run?

The only other time Pablo was on (second inning), the next three guys made outs, so he wasn’t going anywhere.

As for Pablo’s defense, he’s much better at his position (relative to other 3Bs) than Pagan, Scutaro, or Crawford are at theirs (going by UZR/150 rankings, anyway). Gold Glover, no. Biggest liability on the field? Not even close.

Lefty

Foothills: To answer your GM question, I’d wait until this season is over. Sandoval has only once finished the season with an OPS of .750 or lower (2010), and I’d expect him to finish higher than that, hopefully much higher. He’s also been losing weight, and if he keeps that up, I’d definitely consider an extension.

Polioptila

The Panza only loses weight, briefly, as the result of occasional digestive functions.

South City Jim

Is it just me or does Busters .296 BA feel more like .256. I could be completely off base on this but it seems like he goes 0′fer or gets 2 or three hits. I’d be happier with a few less multi-hit games in exchange for a few less 0′fers. We need to get some combination of Scutaro, Pablo, Buster and Pence all hot at the same time…not asking for all four to get hot at the same time, but at least two of the four would be nice. I know we all want to blame the starting pitching and it’s been bad, but in the last two wins the G’s were able to score in the first two innings. In the recent losses, pretty much nothing in the first 5 or 6 innings. I’m getting to the point now where I’m happy if we can get 15 pitches out of the opposing starter in the first inning. It seems like most of the time the opposing pitcher gets through the first with 9-10-11 pitches. People need to start grinding out ABs, and not wait until the 6th or 7th inning to do so. Come on guys! Go Giants!

Polioptila

The Poseur is one of the game’s most overrated players, but few of us Gnatfans are willing to admit it.

ClutchUp

Polio Flower? Try being positive towards 48 once in awhile. Be a teaammate instead of Siskel and Eberting Pablo.

http://nada paul in p.v.

Lefty – yeah me too – but as CC says, “mad” has nothing to do with it – Pablo simply can’t run right now, and I don’t think he has very much power in his swings. BTW, what exactly IS wrong with his foot? I’ve never seen a diagnosis or explanation of the exact nature of his injury.

While we’re at it, why did it take 10 games (?) to place Pagan on the 15-day DL? Gilligan

channelclemente

We all seem to see Sandoval in a somewhat different light. In 2011, I believe he could and would have taken the extra base, not now. He’s playing on a sore tendon over a hairline fracture in his foot. That’s a proscription for disaster. Pagan’s playing with that bursitis should illustrate what happens in that situation. I can see how limited the options are, what with the Fresno desert and all, but sooner or later, these chickens come home as tacos. Right NOW, we’re a 500 club..let’s hope things look up, soon.

http://nada paul in p.v.

p.s. Foots – great avatar! Boom!! Al Jaffee

http://nada paul in p.v.

Gracias CC.

Foothills Ryan

“The Poseur”

Wow. That’s pretty far off base and trollish.

Posey is in a little slump. His wOBA has dropped from .390something to .370 over the last week. RC+ wise, he is 42% above league average run production.

Catching is hard work and takes it’s toll. I imagine Posey would have a nice uptick in offense if he wasn’t expending so much energy catching.

I do think his catching ability may be overrated. He may not be the second best catcher in the NL. Heresy, I know.

Foothills Ryan

Paul,

As you can see. I don’t worry about much. The Giants a .500 team? What me worry?

Sandoval with some injury issues? What me worry?

Foothills Ryan

Clutch’s new avatar is the best though.

Reminds me World War II. Now those were tough times. Giants woes pale in comparison.

channelclemente

Foot,

Posey’s problem seems to me to be he’s just not making hard contact. His Line Drive percentage, for instance, has fallen from ~25% last year to ~15% this year. That’s not regression, but collapse. IMO, that’s why he got moved in the order. You can see from his hotzone analysis, he’s developed some monstrous holes in his swing that weren’t there before. My guess, too many foul balls in the head, coupled with trying to carry the load.

Good point Ryan. Maybe it’s time to see more Quiroz catching and Buster at 1B. Quiroz is a superior defensively over Hector but I get the feeling that Bochy isn’t as enamored with his bat. Hence, more catching for Buster.

Which brings up an interesting point. With a lefty going tomorrow, wonder if Buster will play 1B in a day game following a night game? Seems likely. Means that Quiroz catches Gaudin. Other interesting observation that may mean absolutely nothing. Tomorrow, because of the off day on Monday, either Lincecum or Zito could be the long man but I’ve noticed that Lincecum is already posted as the Tuesday night starter but Zito isn’t yet for Wednesday. Given Lincecum’s recent history in Arizona could mean that Zito is more likely the long man tomorrow should Gaudin need help. Or it could mean absolutely nothing and it’s one or someone else like Kontos.

South City Jim

*it’s either one or someone else…

http://nada paul in p.v.

SCJim – I’ve heard it said that Zeets don’t do relief – takes too much time to warm him up…

Doughnut

Buster usually gets hot during the summer months when the weather heats up. Usually it happens on the road on a east coast road trip. We will see. I still think he will find that hot streak.

As far as his numbers, Buster doesn’t ever give away ABs and that is how you have to play to win a batting title. But he does a lot of his damage in the later stages of a game where it has already been decided or at least it seems that way to me. It is much easier to hit when the score is 6-0 and the pitcher is going to pitch you by the book and you can guess what is coming if you get ahead in the count. It is much harder when pitchers are baring down and giving you everything they have and not giving in with fastballs in hitters counts. I would like to see a stat of what Buster’s numbers are when the game is out of reach especially for last year. He actually had a negative number in high leverge situations last year. It really seemed like it from watching last year that he just struggled in crucial spots. He has been much better this year and it does feel that way.

Buster is still developing as a hitter and still very inexperienced. His success is amazing. The crazy part will be how good a hitter he will be 3 years from now.

South City Jim

Paul, I agree. Just my Saturday afternoon musings.

Polioptila

The Poseur’s a player without a position – we all remember his inability to block the plate, but he can’t play any other defensive position except first, where his offense would be less than mediocre (though admittedly better than Brandi’s).

Peter

Lefty

Nice posts. A nice dose of reality. All this angst from the pablo-patrol because he stepped back a few steps rather than forward, the wrong decision no doubt, but one that almost certainly had nothing to do with his size. Nevertheless, when someone has a reason searching for a problem, they’ll always find one, even if it’s the wrong one.

Doughnut

Quiroz is solid defensively but not anything special at least to me. And in my opinion he has not clicked well with this pitching staff yet. There is not a good rhythm there with anybody on the staff. He had that great walk off HR vs the Dodgers that will live on. But he looks like an automatic out at the plate right now. I hope he proves me wrong but i just don’t see him as a legit major league backup right now and don’t see him as a good fit on this team. We don’t have any other options i guess right now but i don’t think you would need to look very hard to make an improvement over Quiroz. He looks lost with the bat right now.

I would like to see Belt continue to play at 1b. He looks locked in to me right now. He had some great ABs vs. Corbin last night. I hope he gets the nod from now on. When he gets hot it usually lasts a while.

channelclemente

If he could play it still, the perfect position for Posey to ‘rest’ would be 3B. He’s a defensive liability at 1B and Belt is becoming a better and better offensive tool.

Peter

Doughnut,

I agree, Quiroz is nothing special on defense. Not better than Buster, and only marginally better than Hector.

http://nada paul in p.v.

Peter – your self-assuredness almost certainly has nothing to do with smugness. Why are you so sure there is no problem?

Doughnut

Interesting points on the rotation SCJim.

I really hope they continue to give this staff, mainly Cain and Bumgarner the extra day rest when they get it. I think it makes a world of difference. Their stuff looks much more crisp to me when they get it.

These guys have logged a lot of innings and i think there is some fatigue there. Those two guys more than anybody are so much more effective when they get that extra day at least to me. There stuff is so much better. It was the same way at the end of last year. Bumgarner the last couple starts has looked fatigued to me in the middle innings. He looks great in the early innings and then just runs out of gas around the 5th inning. They need to make sure Cain and Bum get that extra day when they can and even give them one every now and then in my opinion. These guys are the future. Keep them fresh. I really think its a big deal.

South City Jim

The G’s won it all last year and kept the same group and I’m going to trust the process for now, or at least until September 1. I will say this though, and I said it during the off-season, long term the Giants need more power from 1B or LF, if not both. They got away with it last year and up to now because they have excellent hitting at 2B and Catcher and pretty good production from SS. Three positions where defense generally trumps offense. G’s were able to get by without big power at 1B during the Bonds era, not because of Bonds, but because they had a 2B that hit like a 1B. Not sure it’s sustainable to not get more run production from LF or 1B.

ClutchUp

Taking an extra base has many facets:
Athleticsm/Health of runner
Situation: Score, Inning, who’s on deck
Defenders arm:
-Did defender get a jump
-Did defender have to move lateraly

ARZ speedy SS barely.made it to 3base early from a Blanco catch and throw.

Thus like the song says: “Everybodys Right and Everybodys Wrong”

http://nada paul in p.v.

Clutch – what is the source of your new avatar? snorkel

Peter

#139 Paul,

Reading comprehension is required if you’re going to interact with me.

what’s kind of scary about Sandoval is that the injuries or the illness are not directly weight related. Although one may be able to find evidence that diet correlates to bone breaks, bone spurs, etc. (althought I won’t be doing the digging). What happens when weight related injuries to surface? Such as the knees, ankles, back, whatever.

What would Billy Beane do? He probably would have been on the market last offseason- after the WS MVP. At the latest, he’d be moved this offseason.

I’m not worried about it thought. It is what it is. It would be nice for the fans to see him put on a show once again. And Posey and the rest of the team could really use the MVP type presence in the lineup.

===

Back to catchers. How awesome is Yadier Molina? He’s started 56 games behind the plate. He’s batting .351. You know he’s the best backstop. Very MVPish.

ClutchUp

Paul in PV ?

Even Snorkel knows the answer:

“Kilroy was here”

Ty

I can’t believe people want to trade Pablo. He’s the least of our problems.

South City Jim

If the Giants had both Yadier and Buster, Buster would become the 1B or 3B. That’s all you need to know about who’s the best catcher. I still say that in the NL Buster is among the top 3 or 4 defensively. Yadier’s a once in a generation type catcher.

Peter

Ryan,

Few players are everything we want them to be. The A’s can’t afford to keep any players with risk associated with them, the Giants can.

Peter

Ryan,

Few players are everything we want them to be. The A’s can’t afford to keep any players with risk a$$ociated with them, the Giants can.

Foothills Ryan

Paul, you read Peter right. Which one of you am I robbing to pay the other by the way?

There seems to be problem/s with Sandoval. Nothing wrong with making observations. If he was healthy and in shape, he should be in the .900 OPS ballpark. He’s got that potential which he’s falling short of.

Posey has some problems too. His line drive rate is down as CC said. He’s in a little slump. We can assume there’s a minor problem somewhere. Take your best guess.

Belt has problems. Pence has problems.

We all have problems to different degrees.

Man it’s hot today!

Foothills Ryan

Paul, you read Peter right. Which one of you am I robbing to pay the other by the way?

There seems to be problem/s with Sandoval. Nothing wrong with making observations. If he was healthy and in shape, he should be in the .900 OPS ballpark. He’s got that potential which he’s falling short of.

Posey has some problems too. His line drive rate is down as CC said. He’s in a little slump. We can a$sume there’s a minor problem somewhere. Take your best guess.

Belt has problems. Pence has problems.

We all have problems to different degrees.

Man it’s hot today!

Doughnut

Yadi is great Ryan. The full package. He has always had the gun for an arm and the receiving skills and the knack for a big hit. But now he has developed into a sure fire leader and a guy that understands how to get the best out of a pitcher and also understands the art of hitting. He is in the absolute prime of his career. He has put it all together and in my mind is the most valuable player in the league.

But still remember Buster is very young and only his second full year right now. He is still far from developing into his prime. He could be better in his prime and he will be fun to watch when he understands all the intricacies at catcher. When he learns and starts to gain confidence as a catcher it will be fun to watch. He has all the intangibles to be great and he already is. But when he is in his prime it will be special. Unfortunately the only way you develop and improve is to learn from mistakes most of the time. So there will be some bumps along the way like last night. But it is invaluable experience and it will mold him into a great catcher later in his career. He already is great but he will be special when it comes his time. Yadi has molded into what he is now. Buster has great character and he is learning some tough lessons this year that will prove very helpful later on.

channelclemente

Peter,

plus the A’s AAA farm club actually develops prospects.

South City Jim

Great post Doughnut. Sometimes I forget how early on Buster is in his development. This is what happens when you have a Rookie of the Year, MVP and two WS rings in what amounts to two years of MLB experience.

Peter

CC,

I wonder how good the Giants farm system would be rated if they had traded Lincecum, Cain, Posey, and Pablo over the past several years? Maybe they’d soon be set to win a few world championships?

We don’t have much for climate up here in the Northwoods of Minnesota, but we do get plenty of weather. Frequent changes. Today, we are getting mostly sunshine interspersed with occasional fat clouds. It’s breezy and i think it may just have topped 70 a couple hours ago. We call it sensurround air conditioning.

If anyone really needs to cool off, hop on a flight to Fargo or Grand Forks, rent a 4WD and i’ll give you free guide service to the Buckboard Hills, Minnesota’s least known wilderness area, just to the west of the place where Mother Earth gives birth to the Father of Waters.

If it ever does warm up around these parts this summer, there is always Duluth and the Northshore of Superior a couple hundred miles east. From the top of the hill in Duluth to lakeside the July temperature differential sometimes runs as high as 20 degrees. Some call the place the Poor Man’s San Francisco. Nice harbor. Plenty hills. Parks everywhere.

“Stan’s blog and observations” READ ALL ABOUT, Lincecum,Yahoo Comcast,Gun control.
And Radish head as always.

http://nada paul in p.v.

Peter: “Reading comprehension is required if you’re going to interact with me.” So it is smugness!

channelclemente

Peter,

yesterdays aren’t necessarily going to add much to tomorrow prospect wise. If those names do anything, they ought to ask you where the beef is now. Fresno is a deadzone, as far as I can tell. Sacramento isn’t. The A’s have arms hanging out with no spot to play who could step in tomorrow on 90% of MLB squads. They went to the edge of the WS with 5 rookies pitching a good part of the year. Dis’ing the A’s won’t help the Giants.

ClutchUp

Footy: Tribe CLOSER Chris Perez’s creativity should make you and Snorkel smile.

Faces misdemeanor Chronic charge for possession of parcel mailed to his dog Brody.

Silly major leaguers (:=

oil can boyd

toady, Gs drafted 3B Jonah Arenado, younger brother of Rockies 3B Nolan Arenado. Maybe he will be in the bigs in a few years when Pablo is a DH in the AL.

http://nada paul in p.v.

Snorkel wuz thinking, Brody should be looking for a new home.

channelclemente

Brody should be looking for an agent.

E-B

hey all, I missed last night’s game, but read all your posts.

great stuff.

best news to my i’s: (according to your posts) Cainers is looking more like the Cainers we know. Was a beautiful sight to see 7 goose eggs for Cainers & Co.

re: long man tomorrow, and catcher.
Well, w/ Gaudin starting, I guess he’s gotta be the starter+ long man, cuz other options not looking too good (bcuz I don’t picture either Timmy or Zito being long man. As you point out, SCJ, Timmy starts Tues. And, Zito’s 1st innings are not always his best, so prob not suited to BP work?

With the off day Monday, I still think there’s a slim chance we see Buster catching tomorrow, but it depends on how today goes.

———————————

rootin for Maddi & Co to keep up the good P & D r guys showed yesterday. it’s one game at a time, 162 times.

——————————–

over and out

Peter

#164 CC,

I think it’s safe to say that Fresno would be well stocked had the Giants traded those names for prospects a few years ago. Of course, they’d have no world championships either. The A’s churn, as more as they do anything. And as an admirer of Billy Beane, I’m sympathetic to the constraints under which he operates, and so I know why he does what he does. But it’s not a formula the Giants have to follow simply to have a well stocked upper tier farm system.

South City Jim

Looks like Tuesday’s starter for the Pirates is Gerritt Cole, a reliever. Likely means they’re skipping Wandy and that Liriano will pitch on Wednesday and Burnett will pitch on Thursday. Better win on Tuesday.

channelclemente

Peter,

I see it differently. As I’ve said before, the PCL generally and the Grizzlies in particular don’t seem to be able to develop players currently. Do you see any glimmer of talent in what’s come up. I don’t see much. What’s unforgivable, IMO, is that the numbers that they generate in Fresno don’t seem to predict anything about their subsequent play in MLB. Every farm system goes through dips and rises, but one ought to see that reflected in the player’s numbers in AAA. Pill is among several examples. I think Neukom, before his departure, even realized that, and planned a redo of Fresno to better serve the Giants needs. As to the A’s , of course you churn, if talent in’t there in AAA. That’s my point really, the indicators the A’s are using seem to be predictive to MLB performance, and not just pointless, cartoon numbers.

South City Jim

new thread

Peter

CC,

PCL numbers don’t fool professionals, they fool fans. Somehow you’ve decided it’s the cartoon numbers that prevent the Giants from developing talent, which, while a lack of comparative development success is an arguable thing, to attribute the causal factor to Fresno is a reach IMO. But really, trying to play the CEO of the Giants is not my thing, so feel free to have the last word here.

Polioptila

Offensively and defensively, Yadier is light years ahead of the Poseur. Plus, Yadier is capable of playing the position without injuring himself.