Monday, September 02, 2013

Thoughts on How Much Money Apologists Should Make and Our Society's Low Estimate of the Worth of Spiritual / Theological Work

By Catholic Apologist Dave Armstrong

[Taken from an earlier discussion thread. Citations from others are from different commentators]

What
would be a very interesting discussion is "how much is too much?" How
much money can the Catholic worker make before he is regarded as
materialistic and greedy and jilting donators and contributors?Whatever that is deemed to be, I'm quite sure I am well below it and likely will be indefinitely.

*****

How
is a donation fundamentally different from a purchase? I take it that a
contributor feels that he or she has personally benefited from the work
of the group that they support (that seems generally true with regard
to my own supporters). Whats the big dif? You support them because you
agree with their "product."

*****

I wouldn't find it unseemly for an executive of a company to make this much... perhaps more

Again, here is the beginning of what I would find a tremendously stimulating
discussion. Why is it that no one objects to someone who manufactures
mufflers or aprons or gasoline or cupcakes, making fabulous amounts of
money from good ol' capitalism, yet if someone in a Catholic apostolate
makes what is deemed to be "too much" it is a huge scandal and people
resent it and blast them?

I'll
answer my own question: I suspect it is because spiritual and
theological teaching ("product" so to speak) is simply not valued as
important. Our society values material goods, so the ones who produce
them are entitled to unlimited wealth, but if someone dares to devote
themselves to Catholic education or outreach, we believe that they ought
to live like paupers (as my own case abundantly illustrates!).

Why?
What is the difference? Does anyone have a better theory than my own,
above? It's not considered proper "work": it's always been that way: the
priest or pastor was not considered to be a person who "worked" like
most folks do. In my observation, they run rings around any other kind
of worker, bar none. It's like the ridiculous canard that housewives
don't "work." Right!

*****

"Didn't the Pope reference exactly this recently regarding priests, the cars they drive, and the lifestyles they live?"

Priests
are a special case: they voluntarily renounce much of that, along with
marriage. That is a heroic call (the evangelical counsels). Lay Catholic
workers are not bound to that. In my case, I have a wife and four
children to support: five other human beings.

*****

"Economics:
a free economy exchange is mutually beneficial. I am getting a product
for my use, and they are receiving compensation for producing that
product. An organization that asks for donations is something else
entirely."

Ah,
but you and others are getting a "product" from Catholic Answers and other similar
apostolates (such as my own). It's just that it is not solely material; it's
spiritual. My point was that the spiritual is undervalued. Your very analysis almost presupposes this.

We
are providing a service, like many other services. We just don't get
much money for it. I've written 40 books: several bestsellers in their
(tiny) field. But I have to live like a pauper, because people don't
value those things. Otherwise, I would make all kinds of money. If I
wrote a sex novel or even a romantic novel and managed to get proper
advertising; I could potentially make ten times or more what I make.
Why? Because that is the "demand" of our society. Supply and demand,
right?

It's
fine to expect that someone who takes a vow of poverty should be poor
(priests, religious), but the lay Catholic worker hasn't done that, and
(usually) has a family to support, and is worthy of his or her wage, as
the Bible says. My family lives very simply, by choice and philosophy
and outlook on life and priorities, but we have bills to pay like anyone
else.

But
how much is too much? That is the interesting question. People assume
and feel a lot of things, but is it really totally thought-through?
Usually not . . .

*****

I
have no idea what a just wage is; I am questioning others who feel
certain that they do know; playing Socrates. I am sure, however, that
the key thing is our interior attitude towards wealth and materialism,
and its relation to other far more important things in life.

I'm
also sure that people by the multiple thousands -- well, millions -- have made idols of
money and materialism. That's patently obvious, but it's much more
difficult to pinpoint individuals who have done so, because we don't
know all the facts and we can't read their hearts.

*****

How
much money is too much and how is it determined? You have a perfect
right to your opinion. I wanna know what lies behind it and no one is
giving me a reason except for one person who said that $45,000 was some
kind of federal figure, so above that is too much.

*****

"Now like or dislike Voris one has to admit the man does a lot of work."

And
Karl Keating doesn't? He's only arguably the father of modern
apologetics and built the largest apologetics organization in the world.
You can still say it's too much money, but this is not the way to do it
. . . People don't know what Karl does with his time. Not all work is outwardly visible to the public. Even if he
were semi-retired, why is it that originators of other corporations and
enterprises who retire (Karl is over 60) or cut back on their own work
are never raked over the coals with implications that they are lazy or
didn't earn their money? They still began the thing and that counts
for something within the capitalistic system. It's still providing a
"product": just spiritual, but expressed in physical things: books,
tapes, articles, talks, radio shows, a forum, question-answering from
house apologists . . .

*****

I don't think "federal standards" cut it in terms of Catholic social
teaching on just and equitable wages. I'm just glad I live in Michigan,
with my ridiculous income (to me $45K would be fabulously rich!). We
manage. In California I'd be be cleaning toilets every night, working 80
hours a week.

*****

The
poorer person has less temptation to idolatry of materialism or greed,
obviously, but then the devil introduces class envy and bitterness and
felt injustice (not to mention sloth in some cases), and those are
killers as well.

I still think riches are more problematic, though. Jesus warned a lot
more about that, than vice versa. But yes, the devil attacks every state
of life; gets in there somehow: the tyranny of the "grass is greener"
and all that. We just can't live our lives either ignoring others
totally or being jealous and envious of them. We gotta live for God and
follow His calling on our lives.

*****

"and [Catholic Answers] even [has] the nerve to put out a "emergency" call for donations,"

That
is standard practice in almost all fundraising appeals. It's done
because it works, and the tendency (similar to sales pitches in general)
is to exaggerate and make out like Chicken Little. People respond to
that every time.

My
upcoming fundraiser (next Tuesday, until I raise what I need) is a bit
funny and different in this respect. I will simply say that my funds are
exhausted, because of my unique / odd "situation" of receiving most of
my income just twice a year (in book royalties). That's the fact. It's
gone right now, after I pay my house bill. I used to be able to get by,
month by month. Since Obama and losing my part-time job at Coming Home
Network as a result of his lamebrain policies (their donations
drastically decreased), I cannot now, despite 40 (!) books and the
endless work I have put into my apostolate, lo these 17 years (the last
nearly 12, full-time).

But
at the same time I'll never say that "if I don't get x amount of dollars
it's all over." I'm a lifer. I ain't ever gonna retire unless I go into a
coma. I do what I do because I am called to it, with 1000% commitment;
it has proven to be fruitful, and God has provided. So yes, I need the
money right now (primarily because of the devastation of the economy)
but it won't be raised by appealing to the Almighty "crisis" / impending
doom routine. I agree about that; always have.

It'll
be raised on the basis of whether a person agrees that what I do is of
value, and especially if they themselves have benefited from it. I gotta
make a living like anyone else. My 2,492 blog papers are available for
free, for anyone. Took a lot of time to write all those. Time is money,
etc.

*****

People
can have opinions about "how much is too much" but in this entire long
thread I've yet to see an argument that solidly proves beyond all
dispute that a certain income is "too much" and amounts to "material
greed."The
problem I have is people saying, "that is too much!" Then when I probe
and ask for the reasoning as to why they think so, I don't feel that I
have received an adequate answer all day long, bouncing this topic back
and forth. It's usually (in my opinion) a mere feeling, sometimes class envy, and
sometimes a double standard, where any other profession can engage in
unbridled free enterprise, entrepreneurial capitalism, but if a lay
Catholic worker makes a little money, then that is a huge scandal, even
though they have taken no vow of poverty, and usually have families to
support.

14 comments:

My ONLY hesitancy with donation-supported apostolates is with those who do use the "chicken little" tactic. I hold Catholic Apostolates, I think rightly, to a higher standard. If they tell me that they are putting out an emergency appeal which will tell the tale -- one way or another -- as to whether they stay afloat, and I find out it's "exaggerated" - I call that dishonesty; and I do not contribute.

Your analysis is correct. People do not value the theological and the spiritual as they do the products of the secular economy. This is also why so many people view the monastic vocation as "such a waste."

Be sure to "hit me up" during your fundraising campaign. I'll do what I can. You were at CHNI when I was in the process of coming home - and I met you a year later at their conference in Columbus. As I daily express my gratitude to God for bringing me Home -- I also feel gratitude in my heart for all who helped me along the way.

Hello, I'm a non-denominational Christian having fallen away from Evangelicalism and I greatly appreciate insights from Catholic apologists.

However I am extremely reluctant to give them money because I've been banned from the forum "CatholicAnswer" on the grounds that I challenged some specific roman Catholic dogmas. I was extremely respectful and asked if they found that disturbing but they banished me without any further discussion.

I find that extremely disappointing for I highly value free conversations about religious matters and this is the reason which led me to create a blog several weeks ago.

Dear Mr. Armstrong, I have just ordered on Amazon the New Answer Bible, on suggestion of a friend, and have discovered your site. I shall spend a good deal of time time on it, according to my possibilities. The subject of your studies has always been for me of great interest and I have transcribed a forgotten work by Father Genovesi ("Contro gli errori dei Protestanti") that is now present in Italian on various sites. I thought about translating it into English, but I now realize that your works are more complete and up-to-date. If you understand Itlaian please take a look: http://www.amazon.co.uk/Dave-Armstrong/e/B001JOY5UM/ref=ntt_dp_epwbk_0 and tell me what you think.WIth kindest regards,Lorenzo Da Pra Galanti

Some months ago I attended a talk which Michael Voris gave in Carfin, Scotland. It was very positive. It was basically a call for all of us to become more holy. He criticised the people who attend the Novus Ordo Mass with an ‘abuseometer’ and he was not particularly sympathetic to a questioner who was critical towards the Bishops. However, his regular videos seem now to be invariably moan after moan about the state of the Church that I stopped watching them.It seems to me that one of the biggest scandals relating to the Church in the USA has been the large number of people who leave the Church to join Protestant churches. And it seems to me that people like Karl Keating are actually trying to do something about this problem. So when I read that Michael Voris was criticising Mr Keating I was absolutely flabbergasted. In the past twenty years or so there have been two relevant developments. One is the number of books, talks, blogs, etc devoted to defending the Church’s teaching against the criticisms of the Protestants. The other is the number of high-profile conversions from Protestantism. What I would be interested to know is whether these two developments have had any effect in reducing conversions to Protestantism?

I doubt it. There will always be traffic in both directions. The conversions to Catholicism seem to be increasing.

The striking difference, though, is the quality of at least he "high-profile" Catholic conversions. These are people who really know their stuff. They knew their Protestantism and know their new faith.

But conversions in the other direction are more often than not folks who never knew their Catholic faith properly, so often they are rejecting a straw man.

I just came across this very interesting comment on the 'Called to Communion' website:"I appreciated the witty title of Rebecca’s article and even now, having reread it a few times, I appreciate her writing style throughout. She honestly acknowledges the mass exodus of young evangelicals out of the denominations they grew up in and into “High Church” traditions, especially Roman Catholicism." This sounds very encouraging.

The amusing part is that when they go before Charlemagne, the monks say they're willing to give wisdom for nothing -- except that they need a building to teach in, pupils, and food and clothing. If they aren't supported and funded in full in this way, "we will not be able to accomplish our pilgrimage." So Charlemagne sets up and funds two full monasteries -- one for each of the wisdom-selling monks -- including all the land and goods they'll need to support themselves.

So yes, Catholic Answers gives away wisdom and knowledge for free. And yes, it also needs to have donors fund it fully.

--- Marcus Grodi (director of The Coming Home Network, and host of the EWTN television show: The Journey Home)

I highly recommend his work, A Biblical Defense of Catholicism, which I find to be thoroughly orthodox, well-written, and effective for the purpose of making Catholic truth more understandable and accessible to the public at large.

God bless you in your indefatigable labors on behalf of the Faith! Only God knows how many lives your efforts have touched with the truth. . . . God bless you and give you joy and strength in persevering in your important ministry.

There is someone out there who says what I have to say much better than I ever could -- the smartest Catholic apologist I know of -- Dave Armstrong.

--- Amy Welborn (Catholic author and blogmaster)

I love your books, love your site, love everything you do. God bless you in your work. I'm very grateful for all you've done, and for all you make available. If someone pitches a hard question at me, I go first to your site. Then I send the questioner directly to the page that best answers the question. I know it's going to be on your site.

--- Mike Aquilina (Catholic apologist and author of several books)

People regularly tell me how much they appreciate your work. This new book sounds very useful. Your website is incredible and I recommend it regularly to new Catholics.

--- Al Kresta (Host of Kresta in the Afternoon [EWTN], author of Why Do Catholics Genuflect? and other books)

Dave Armstrong's book A Biblical Defense of Catholicism was one of the first Catholic apologetics books that I read when I was exploring Catholicism. Ever since then, I have continued to appreciate how he articulates the Catholic Faith through his blog and books. I still visit his site when I need a great quote or clarification regarding anything . . . Dave is one of the best cyber-apologists out there.--- Dr. Taylor Marshall (apologist and author of The Crucified Rabbi)

I love how Dave makes so much use of the Scriptures in his arguments, showing that the Bible is fully compatible with Catholicism, even more plausibly so than it is with Protestantism.. . . Dave is the hardest working Catholic apologist I know. He is an inspiration to me.

--- Devin Rose (apologist and author of The Protestant's Dilemma, 28 May 2012 and 30 Aug. 2013)Dave Armstrong['s] website is an amazing treasure trove representing hours–yea a lifetime of material gathered to defend Catholic doctrine. Over the years Dave has gathered the evidence for Catholic teaching from just about every source imaginable. He has the strength not only to understand the Catholic faith, but to understand the subtleties and arguments of his Protestant opponents.--- Fr. Dwight Longenecker (author and prominent blogmaster, 6-29-12)

You are a very friendly adversary who really does try to do all things with gentleness and respect. For this I praise God.--- Nathan Rinne (Lutheran apologist [LC-MS] )

You are one of the most thoughtful and careful apologists out there.

Dave, I disagree with you a lot, but you're honorable and gentlemanly, and you really care about truth. Also, I often learn from you, even with regard to my own field. [1-7-14]

--- Dr. Edwin W. Tait (Anglican Church historian)

Dave Armstrong writes me really nice letters when I ask questions. . . . Really, his notes to me are always first class and very respectful and helpful. . . . Dave Armstrong has continued to answer my questions in respectful and helpful ways. I thank the Lord for him.

--- The late Michael Spencer (evangelical Protestant), aka "The Internet Monk", on the Boar's Head Tavern site, 27 and 29 September 2007

Dave Armstrong is a former Protestant Catholic who is in fact blessedly free of the kind of "any enemy of Protestantism is a friend of mine" coalition-building . . . he's pro-Catholic (naturally) without being anti-Protestant (or anti-Orthodox, for that matter).

---"CPA": Lutheran professor of history [seehis site]: unsolicited remarks of 12 July 2005

I am reading your stuff since I think it is the most thorough and perhaps the best defense of Catholicism out there . . . Dave has been nothing but respectful and kind to me. He has shown me great respect despite knowing full well that I disagree with him on the essential issues.

Dave has been a full-time apologist for years. He’s done much good for thousands of people.

You have a lot of good things to say, and you're industrious. Your content often is great. You've done yeoman work over the decades, and many more people [should] profit from your writing. They need what you have to say.--- Karl Keating (founder and director of Catholic Answers, the largest Catholic apologetics organization in the world; 5 Sep. 2013 and 1 Jan. 2015)

Whether one agrees with Dave's take on everything or not, everyone should take it quite seriously, because he presents his arguments formidably.

I like the way you present your stuff Dave ... 99% of the time.--- Protestant Dave Scott, 4-22-14 on my personal Facebook page.

Who is this Dave Armstrong? What is he really like? Well, he is affable, gentle, sweet, easily pleased, very appreciative, and affectionate . . . I was totally unprepared for the real guy. He's a teddy bear, cuddly and sweet. Doesn't interrupt, sits quietly and respectfully as his wife and/or another woman speaks at length. Doesn't dominate the conversation. Just pleasantly, cheerfully enjoys whatever is going on about him at the moment and lovingly affirms those in his presence. Most of the time he has a relaxed, sweet smile.

--- Becky Mayhew (Catholic), 9 May 2009, on the Coming Home Network Forum, after meeting me in person.

Every so often, I recommend great apostolates, websites, etc. And I am very careful to recommend only the very best that are entirely Catholic and in union with the Church. Dave Armstrong’s Biblical Evidence for Catholicism site is one of those. It is a veritable treasure chest of information. Dave is thorough in his research, relentlessly orthodox, and very easy to read.

Discussions with you are always a pleasure, agreeing or disagreeing; that is a rarity these days.

--- David Hemlock (Eastern Orthodox Christian), 4 November 2014.

What I've appreciated, Dave, is that you can both dish out and take argumentative points without taking things personally. Very few people can do that on the Internet. I appreciate hard-hitting debate that isn't taken personally.

--- Dr. Lydia McGrew (Anglican), 12 November 2014.

Dave Armstrong is a friend of mine with whom I've had many discussions. He is a prolific Catholic writer and apologist. If you want to know what the Catholic Church really believes, Dave is a good choice. Dave and I have our disagreements, but I'll put my arm around him and consider him a brother. There is too much dishonesty among all sides in stating what the "other side" believes. I'll respect someone who states fairly what the other believes.

Recommended Catholic Apologetics Links and Icons

Protestantism: Critical Reflections of an Ecumenical Catholic

Orthodoxy & Citation Permission

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