The elements of which you speak which were used in forms of magic were considered to be elemental spirits… So while there is no god in your equation, there are spirits or in your case forces of nature… Seems pretty fucking close or no different to me…

“Nature spirits which include elementals are believed to be various types of beings or spirits which inhabit Nature.”

“Elementals are of a lower type of nature spirit. They are believed to exist as the life force in all living things. They are said to even exist in the four elements of earth, air, fire, and water; the planets, stars, and the signs of the zodiac; and the hours of the day and night.”

Now let me further add witchcraft to ritual magic, and prayer… All of these work exactly the same through luck… If your prayer, curse, or spell works then what a powerful person you are, how powerful your faith in yourself or your god must be… Now if the same prayer, spell, curse, or working doesn’t work well then perhaps you were not focused enough or your belief in your god or your own power was not enough to secure the desired outcome… The only difference between prayer, magic or witchcraft is where you think this power comes from…

Can you really call on the power of the elements and believe that you are not calling on an external source of power? How different from asking for god's favor is this? Can you honestly argue that because it has been done for thousands of years it must be correct? Following that train of thought then both you and I are on the wrong path, Jesus is real... Prayer must also be real...

Question everything as a Satanist just not magic as long as it works for you… In fact didn’t Anton say something along the same line about the use of satanic magic? Not to question it as long as it works for you? Sometimes it is easier to fool yourself than others, but a smart man can easily fool you into fooling yourself…

You admit yourself that curses only really work if the person deserves it… Why do you think this is? Could it not be this person’s disposition or actions that make him worthy of the curse itself is not what ensures his demise? Many Satanists admit that ritual is used only to clear the mind, the only difference I see from this to prayer is dumping your goals on an external deity… I would have to argue that even though a Christian prays to god the outcome of clearing the mind is not much different… Except while we may work to achieve what we want a Christian may wait hoping it will be handed to them…

The longer I look the more similar it all becomes… The basic instincts and common emotions that drive the human race are very few, quite disgusting to be a slave to without trying to understand these basics…

No fantastical beings in the sky no fantastical powers to be had…

~T~

I think there is a differnce between prayer and magic, and that is self deceit. The devout church goer will pray and whine about his circumstance, which negates any real results by spreading the desire thin and deluting it. The Satanist or Magician knowing that prayer does no good takes the situation by command.

You said that "the only difference I see from this to prayer is dumping your goals on an external deity…" In my view, we are not dumping our goals on some external deity, but rather, rid any unwanted negative energies or emotions as in the Destruction Ritual. In the Destruction Ritual this is attained by the symbolic sticking of pins or needles into an effegy. The whole point is for the magician to return to a functional and productive life, and if (even by coincidence) the victim gets ill then so be it and Hail Satan!

There was mention of the Infernal Names and a feeling of empowerment by a poster. I would just like to add that, of course in my workings, the Infernal Names are not viewed as literal beings but as archetypes - reflections of self, whose attributs can be added to the self.

BUT, if by some reason a person undergoes ritual and chooses to believe in the archetypes chosen and it intensifies the ritual, then so be it! If believing that you are in league with demons and it better intensifies your personal workings then by all means indulge in fantasy. But when it is all said and done the rightful mind would do well to realize that it is just that - fantasy. Within Satanic Ritual there is a bit of paradox concurrent within the rituals: up is down, pleasure is pain, right is wrong, ingnorance bliss, truth lies etc.

I think there is a differnce between prayer and magic, and that is self deceit. The devout church goer will pray and whine about his circumstance, which negates any real results by spreading the desire thin and deluting it. The Satanist or Magician knowing that prayer does no good takes the situation by command.

By taking command you do mean doing something besides ritual to achieve what you desire yes? Cause if all you do is a ritual and wait you are no different than a person who prays. Also to point out, you have no absolute knowledge that everyone who has ever prayed did so whining with little or diluted desire. This is not fact just your opinion.

Originally Posted By: Lamar

You said that "the only difference I see from this to prayer is dumping your goals on an external deity…

I did? I know you cut and pasted my whole post but I fear if you really read it that you fail to comprehend what I really said.

Try rereading and understanding this paragraph shall we?

“Now let me further add witchcraft to ritual magic, and prayer… All of these work exactly the same through luck… If your prayer, curse, or spell works then what a powerful person you are, how powerful your faith in yourself or your god must be… Now if the same prayer, spell, curse, or working doesn’t work well then perhaps you were not focused enough or your belief in your god or your own power was not enough to secure the desired outcome… The only difference between prayer, magic or witchcraft is where you think this power comes from…” ~ta2zz

Nowhere do I say anything about dumping your goals on an external deity.

Originally Posted By: Lamar

" In my view, we are not dumping our goals on some external deity, but rather, rid any unwanted negative energies or emotions as in the Destruction Ritual. In the Destruction Ritual this is attained by the symbolic sticking of pins or needles into an effegy. The whole point is for the magician to return to a functional and productive life, and if (even by coincidence) the victim gets ill then so be it and Hail Satan!

I fully understand Satanic magic and ritual and I assure you I have transcended any need for physical ritual and only see alters and such as tools for others who are not as focused. I have met others who follow this path, those who believe that the second half of that little black book is merely for those who still need dogma and filler. Yes I said dogma.

Seriously the need to perform a ritual to gain control of your emotions just oozes weakness to me.

No offence to any who need or use ritual or to those who for an alter use a naked female.

Originally Posted By: Lamar

There was mention of the Infernal Names and a feeling of empowerment by a poster. I would just like to add that, of course in my workings, the Infernal Names are not viewed as literal beings but as archetypes - reflections of self, whose attributs can be added to the self.

Who, what? Weren’t you directly replying to my above copied post? Wait are you talking about where I said this?

“Can you really call on the power of the elements and believe that you are not calling on an external source of power? How different from asking for god's favor is this?” ~ta2zz

Originally Posted By: Lamar

BUT, if by some reason a person undergoes ritual and chooses to believe in the archetypes chosen and it intensifies the ritual, then so be it! If believing that you are in league with demons and it better intensifies your personal workings then by all means indulge in fantasy.

So by all means if praying to The Hulk or if calling on him makes you stronger or gets you results so be it.

You mentioned self-deceit?

Originally Posted By: Lamar

But when it is all said and done the rightful mind would do well to realize that it is just that - fantasy. Within Satanic Ritual there is a bit of paradox concurrent within the rituals: up is down, pleasure is pain, right is wrong, ingnorance bliss, truth lies etc.

Fantasy is best left to children and bedtime stories. There is little room for fantasy beyond entertainment in my reality. If we remember that the rituals were written in a different time for a different mindset than and only then will reality become clear.

~T~

_________________________
We are the music makers, And we are the dreamers of dreams. ~Arthur William Edgar O'Shaughnessy

I think there is a differnce between prayer and magic, and that is self deceit. The devout church goer will pray and whine about his circumstance, which negates any real results by spreading the desire thin and deluting it. The Satanist or Magician knowing that prayer does no good takes the situation by command.

By taking command you do mean doing something besides ritual to achieve what you desire yes? Cause if all you do is a ritual and wait you are no different than a person who prays. Also to point out, you have no absolute knowledge that everyone who has ever prayed did so whining with little or diluted desire. This is not fact just your opinion.

Originally Posted By: Lamar

You said that "the only difference I see from this to prayer is dumping your goals on an external deity…

I did? I know you cut and pasted my whole post but I fear if you really read it that you fail to comprehend what I really said.

Try rereading and understanding this paragraph shall we?

“Now let me further add witchcraft to ritual magic, and prayer… All of these work exactly the same through luck… If your prayer, curse, or spell works then what a powerful person you are, how powerful your faith in yourself or your god must be… Now if the same prayer, spell, curse, or working doesn’t work well then perhaps you were not focused enough or your belief in your god or your own power was not enough to secure the desired outcome… The only difference between prayer, magic or witchcraft is where you think this power comes from…” ~ta2zz

Nowhere do I say anything about dumping your goals on an external deity.

Originally Posted By: Lamar

" In my view, we are not dumping our goals on some external deity, but rather, rid any unwanted negative energies or emotions as in the Destruction Ritual. In the Destruction Ritual this is attained by the symbolic sticking of pins or needles into an effegy. The whole point is for the magician to return to a functional and productive life, and if (even by coincidence) the victim gets ill then so be it and Hail Satan!

I fully understand Satanic magic and ritual and I assure you I have transcended any need for physical ritual and only see alters and such as tools for others who are not as focused. I have met others who follow this path, those who believe that the second half of that little black book is merely for those who still need dogma and filler. Yes I said dogma.

Seriously the need to perform a ritual to gain control of your emotions just oozes weakness to me.

No offence to any who need or use ritual or to those who for an alter use a naked female.

Originally Posted By: Lamar

There was mention of the Infernal Names and a feeling of empowerment by a poster. I would just like to add that, of course in my workings, the Infernal Names are not viewed as literal beings but as archetypes - reflections of self, whose attributs can be added to the self.

Who, what? Weren’t you directly replying to my above copied post? Wait are you talking about where I said this?

“Can you really call on the power of the elements and believe that you are not calling on an external source of power? How different from asking for god's favor is this?” ~ta2zz

Originally Posted By: Lamar

BUT, if by some reason a person undergoes ritual and chooses to believe in the archetypes chosen and it intensifies the ritual, then so be it! If believing that you are in league with demons and it better intensifies your personal workings then by all means indulge in fantasy.

So by all means if praying to The Hulk or if calling on him makes you stronger or gets you results so be it.

You mentioned self-deceit?

Originally Posted By: Lamar

But when it is all said and done the rightful mind would do well to realize that it is just that - fantasy. Within Satanic Ritual there is a bit of paradox concurrent within the rituals: up is down, pleasure is pain, right is wrong, ingnorance bliss, truth lies etc.

Fantasy is best left to children and bedtime stories. There is little room for fantasy beyond entertainment in my reality. If we remember that the rituals were written in a different time for a different mindset than and only then will reality become clear.

~T~

Quote:

By taking command you do mean doing something besides ritual to achieve what you desire yes? Cause if all you do is a ritual and wait you are no different than a person who prays. Also to point out, you have no absolute knowledge that everyone who has ever prayed did so whining with little or diluted desire. This is not fact just your opinion.

Quote:

Yes, by taking command of the situation you do something other than just ritual. I agree with your statement, if all you do is wait you are no different than the man who prays. But also sometimes, as in the case of the destruction ritual, the magician may feel the need for an emotional release ie: the destroying of an effegy, the shedding of tears (see compassion ritual), etc. Sometimes emotional release is necessary before the magician would take direct command.

Quote:

I did? I know you cut and pasted my whole post but I fear if you really read it that you fail to comprehend what I really said.

Try rereading and understanding this paragraph shall we?

“Now let me further add witchcraft to ritual magic, and prayer… All of these work exactly the same through luck… If your prayer, curse, or spell works then what a powerful person you are, how powerful your faith in yourself or your god must be… Now if the same prayer, spell, curse, or working doesn’t work well then perhaps you were not focused enough or your belief in your god or your own power was not enough to secure the desired outcome… The only difference between prayer, magic or witchcraft is where you think this power comes from…” ~ta2zz

Nowhere do I say anything about dumping your goals on an external deity.

Quote:

No you did not say anything about dumping your goals on an external deity in that paragraph. But you did say that right about here.

Quote:

Many Satanists admit that ritual is used only to clear the mind, the only difference I see from this to prayer is dumping your goals on an external deity…

Quote:

Quote:

I fully understand Satanic magic and ritual and I assure you I have transcended any need for physical ritual and only see alters and such as tools for others who are not as focused. I have met others who follow this path, those who believe that the second half of that little black book is merely for those who still need dogma and filler. Yes I said dogma.

Seriously the need to perform a ritual to gain control of your emotions just oozes weakness to me.

No offence to any who need or use ritual or to those who for an alter use a naked female.

Quote:

Well I am certainly happy you have transcended beyond the need for ritual and have met others with same views. But just because I ritualize does not mean that I am not as focused, if anything my focus is enhanced with my direction and intent. On another note, I enjoy ceremony. And lastly, no I do not need to perfom a ritual to gain control of my emotions.

Quote:

Who, what? Weren’t you directly replying to my above copied post?

Quote:

No I was responding to another poster, my apolagies I should have been more specific when I was referring to archetypes.

Quote:

Fantasy is best left to children and bedtime stories. There is little room for fantasy beyond entertainment in my reality. If we remember that the rituals were written in a different time for a different mindset than and only then will reality become clear.

Quote:

There is an element of fantasy in ceremony. And come to think of it ceremony is entertaining.

Please do as Ta2zz suggests, and click "Preview Post" before the "Submit" button.

Click "Reply" on the post that you wish to respond to.

Click on the " icon above the text input field.

Highlight which ever sentences or paragraphs you wish to individually reply to/make an argument for or against. Right-click, copy.

Paste the text between the {quote} {/quote}, and your response beneath it.

Click on "Preview Post" to review when you're finished, to ensure that there are no spelling mistakes, thoughts you'd like to add/leave out, and that the post you're trying to make doesn't look like the one you made in this thread.

Look, Anton wrote the Satanic Bible knowing full well that it was going to be bought by every teenage clod at the corner drugstore bookrack. Therefore the "destruction ritual" was designed so that no one would or could actually get hurt from or by it, get it?

True! And this isn't something "new" or "deceptive." Even in the ancient musty dusties of magical ritual and up to and including some of the iconic "magical societies," it was common to leave out a specific part of a ritual, and that piece of the ritual would be known by those who needed to know it. It was a key/lock type of situation. In essence, "I'll tell you where the treasure IS... it's there and ready for you to take it... when YOU are ready to receive it."

LaVey was simply not handing a loaded weapons to children.

Excuse me, Jake, for bringing up an old thread, but as a new member I`m doing quite a lot of reading here, and ever since I first read through this particular thread I`ve always had your above post in mind. I THINK that I may be actually missing out on something valid here, and I probably am, but since I am here mostly to learn, I still want to ask...

Since LaVey left out integral parts of the rituals in the Satanic Bible, because he was not, as you said "handing out loaded weapons to children", what difference could those certain parts actually make when Satanic ritual is all about emotional release anyway?

I`ve pondered that some words and combinations may have an dramatic impact on already mentally unstable individuals if engaging in ritual, but seeing that Satanic ritual is already very dramatic as it is (can`t imagine the impact the Satanic Bible may have had in the times it was first released:D) I`m not sure about that either...

Thank you for your time.

_________________________
It is not my name or my number, its how I use it and what I do.

I am drawing the destroyer into this dimension, but with so much fun surrounding the destruction of civilisation, I get distracted by chipping away with tsunamis, earthquakes, famine, disease outbreaks and viruses.

Try carving some hideous sigils into your psyche before you dream a world of corpses. It's just to enhance the Will to destroy the Earth, I do it all the time and it seems to be working a treat.

Somebody could bring about the implosion of the sun? that's more of a side project for me as I'm busy with my grand design most days.

When I peruse my local bookstores' occult section I find all sorts of books on magical rituals, ceremonies, rites, tools, practices and what have you. But what gets me is the titles of the person performing or one could say studying of sorts in these magical ways. You have your obvious Witches...but then there are Warlocks, Wizards, Druids etc etc. To be a wizard...what makes one a wizard compared to a warlock...or a warlock to a druid besides the obvious alterations in beliefs?

Most of it is all just etymology and the different connotations of each word.

"Witch" implies a practitioner of folk sorcery that is seen as opposing the dominant religious authority. It is usually pejorative, as most real witches prefer to call themselves "healers" or some variation of the term.

"Warlock" is a derogative title for a magician that specifically means "oath breaker".

"Wizard" denotes a very wise magician, but it's not used that widely outside of fiction. I'd laugh at anybody who called themselves such, unless they were a mysterious, royally-patroned old man who could kill you with their mesmeric gaze... ie, Christopher Lee.

"Druid" obviously would refer to a heirophant of the Druidic religion and somebody intensively trained in their ancient lore and customs after decades of study-- but of course the Druids died out ages ago, so nowadays the term refers to overweight hippies who like to dress up in Ren-Fair garb and pretend they are the legitimate heirs to a forgotten tradition that died out centuries ago, so they fill in the giant gaps with modern romanticism and random bits of generic folklore, and hope nobody notices.

You have your obvious Witches...but then there are Warlocks, Wizards, Druids etc etc. To be a wizard...what makes one a wizard compared to a warlock...or a warlock to a druid besides the obvious alterations in beliefs?

As a bit of historical trivia, the C/S originally had both "official" and "ceremonial" titles for its degrees. [Anton liked the idea of "spooky" titles instead of "traditional" ones.] As of 1972 here was the official breakdown, but within the Church everyone was customarily just using the ones in red:

Throughout the Church's 1966-75 decade, Anton often used the "ceremonial" terms in conversation and correspondence when referring to individuals or magical operations. If he referred to you or someone else as a "sorcerer", for example, it was an intentional [if rarely realized] compliment.

There was no title of "Acolyte" either, as you (Dr Aquino) make so eloquently clear on the Oprah Winfrey show featuring the self-professed ex-Satanist who couldn't quite remember whether or not he'd murdered someone, or when or why. Or if it was in a graveyard or not somewhere in the US. Involving 7 knives, probably.Whenever I feel in need of a good belly laugh I watch this on YouTube.

We played around with the titles a bit. The original "prefix" for a III° was "Reverend". I suggested "Irreverend". We compromised on "Priest/Priestess ...". Similarly when I joined in 1969, everyone was calling him "Your/His Excellency". I didn't like or use it, saying that it lowered him down to the level of a Catholic bishop. I suggested "Your/His Unholiness". Still think it would have been catchy. We had a go-round with the top level of the IV°. He proposed "Magister Magnus"; I said that would translate to "Fat Master". I proposed "Magister Augustus" instead; he said it sounded like a Roman emperor. He said how about "Magister Templi Rex"? I said it sounded like a German shepherd. We finally just stopped worrying about it until such time as the Church actually got around to having a IV°/III' [it never did].

The staff was usually pretty laid back about titles when we were dealing with each other at the Black House. Of course, with Dr. LaVey, it was usually Herr Doktor or Dr. LaVey... when introducing him it was always Anton LaVey, High Priest. I called him "Boss," which raised some eyebrows from time to time, but he liked it.

When we had guests, we used their titles unless we were asked/told not to.

Once he told me, "Jake when we're alone, you can call me Anton." I tried once. It felt so alien that I never did it again. It could have been partly my military training, coupled with the respect I had for him, but I just could not get my head around calling him by his first name. It would have been like calling my Squadron Commander "Erle." Nooooooooooooooooo. I kept it formal most of the time. wore 3 piece suits every night and would never have presumed to be too familiar, although there was an obvious connection on a more than business level.

Blanche as Magistra Templi Rex,,, German shepherd... close to what I would call her.