2008:
1(31) = Kenny Phillips (S) - starter, missed 2009 season due to knee injury, missed one game 2011 season, and now injured since 9/30 this season
2(63) = Terrell Thomas (DB) - three good seasons but has been injured since
3(95) = Mario Manningham (WR)- 18 career TDs but team let him walk in FA due to cap management
4(123) = Bryan Kehl (LB) - waived in 2010.
5(165) = Jonathan Goff (LB) - became a starter in 2010, now signed with Redskins but on IR for a torn ACL
6(198) = Andre Woodson (QB) - waived by Hartford Colonials in 2010 in the UFL, coaches the Kentucky Wildcats now
6(199) = Robert Henderson (DE) - waived in 2009, now plays for NO VooDoos

2010:
1(15) = Jason Pierre-Paul (DE) - it took a year but he enough said about him.
2(46) = Linval Joseph (DT) - career 79 tackles, 6 sacks. 4 of those sacks this season
3(76) = Chad Jones (S) - waived this season
4(115) = Phillip Dillard (LB) - waived in 2011, now plays for Omaha Nighthawks
5(147) = Mitch Petrus (OG) - waived this season
6(184) = Adrian Tracy (LB) - spent 2010 on IR, signed to PS in 2011, now on active roster as backup
7(221) - Matt Dodge (P) - waived in 2011 after disastrous 2010 season

2011:
1(19) = Prince Amukamara (DB) - current starter
2(52) = Marvin Austin (DT) - spent 2011 on IR, but hasn't started a game in 2012 and has 4 career tackles
3(83) = Jerrell Jernigan (WR) - career 6 recieving yds
4(117) = James Brewer (OT) - spent all 16 games inactive in 2011, has only played in two games this year with no starts
6(185) = Greg Jones (LB) - waived this season
6(198) = Tyler Sash (S) - special teamer
6(202) = Jacquian Williams (LB) - rotational player
7(221) = Da'Rel Scott (RB) - RB3 in 2011, now on IR this season

I have huge quibbles with this 'reasonable outlook.' If you're going to look at the effectiveness of teams' draft picks you can't do it in a vacuum. Two thirds of team's first-round picks, collectively, never make it to a probowl. Yet fans consistently have expectations for players that aren't realistic, and end up dissatisfied with effective draft picks as a result.

A very good draft is going to net you three starters and a couple of role players. Two starters and some role players is solid. We'd probably never agree on a metric, but someone with more time on their hands that I have has probably come up with a draft efficiency index that takes %games played/%games started/probowls/time in league/whatever other relevant factors into account.

Failing, that, though, you can at least look at the net players added each of the last three years--this time including the college FA who are, of course, also the by product of the team's scouting and selection process.

2010

1(24) Dez Bryant WR Oklahoma St. - This looks more and more like a bad decision by the day. (He's on track for 80 catches and over 1,000 yards this season. Not what I wanted him to be at this point in his career, but hardly a 'bad decision.')

2(55) Sean Lee ILB Penn St. - Injury concerns but still a hit. (One of the most promising ILBs in the league already, as as second round pick. Yeah. I'd say he was 'a hit.')

4(126) Akwasi Owusu-Ansah CB Indiana (Pa.) - Wasted pick. (Overstatement. He made the roster and was an insignificant role player. He at least played in games in the league for two different teams.

3(71) DeMarco Murray RB Oklahoma - Solid pick but injury prone. (This was the steal of the third round, and maybe of the entire draft. Pair him with Smith and Carter, and you've already got your third starter for this year).

4(110) David Arkin T Missouri St. - Can't play. (Overstatement. He's a developing player and not yet a significant role player, but he's in contention for snaps next year, at least as in injury replacement to a starter if not in outright competition for RG next training camp. We knew coming out that he was going to need time in the weight room to develop).

5(143) Josh Thomas CB Buffalo - Swing and a miss.

6(176) Dwayne Harris WR East Carolina - Could be an emerging return man. (Pretty clearly already an emerged return man. Could be an emerging WR).

7(220) Shaun Chapas FB Georgia - Not an NFL player. (He was on the DET practice squad, last I'd heard).

RB Phillip Tanner (backup RB), OC Kevin Kowalski (active on game days once he's back in the rotation?), OLB Alex Albright (getting snaps on teams and in defensive packages), K Dan Bailey (starting kicker, and very good).

2012
1(6) Morris Claiborne CB LSU - Actually cost 1(14) and 2(45). Nice player, waaaaaay overpaid for him. No impact whatsoever. (Nonsense. Starter, with huge potential. Was a tremendous value where he was selected at a position of major need).

3(81) Tyrone Crawford DE Boise St. - Has shown nothing yet to warrant the pick but it's still early. (Has shown plenty. Is already a role player, and someone I think competes for starting snaps as early as next season).

4(113) Kyle Wilber OLB Purdue - Is he on the team? Oh. (Yes, and someone who plays a deep position, missed most of the offseason and then required surgery to repair a broken thumb. We'll see next season what his prospects really are, but you're premature to consider him a miss).

4(135) Matt Johnson S Eastern Washington - Evil Knievel had less injuries. Which could be saving us from seeing he can't play. Like his draft grade outside of Dallas suggests. (No way to say b/c of the injuries. No idea how you've concluded they're masking the fact that he can't play b/c the coaches have been high on him for what little time he's gotten).

5(152) Danny Coale WR Virginia Tech - Practice squad. (Yep)

6(186) James Hanna TE Oklahoma - Hasn't done anything but hasn't had a chance yet either. A complete unknown. (6th round pick that made the team and gets snaps as a role player. That's not nothing).

You're forgetting Beasley (role player on offense), Dunbar (role player on offense), Leary (practice squad) and Benford (practice squad, I think). And now Bass (called up to the active roster).

That's a quality three year run in my book. I think it's a quality run in most books, and it's just that fans have relatively unrealistic expectations for what sort of snaps a drafted player is going to be able to give you.

You can tell when people are walking around calling Marcus Spears a bust that they don't have even a vague idea how difficult it really is to find guys who can stick on your roster for 8-9 seasons. You've only got 22 starting positions + specialty players on a roster for any given year. A lot of those slots are filled by veteran FAs. That doesn't leave too many slots open for 7 full rounds of picks over multiple seasons and including successful college FAs.

So what we have here is one really good player but he's injury prone. He may or may not have a great career because of it. Dez is an infant mentally. We all know he's not reaching his potential. Lissemore is a rotational sub.

I basically agree although I'm not that concerned about Lee. I think he's a star. Bryant the vote is not in yet although I agree its a concern. Lissemore may prove more than a role player and I'd say in this defense he will get a decent share of snaps at least.

We stand a very good chance of coming out of the 2012 draft with, wait for it, a cornerback. ~confetti~.....~party noise makers~

More negative hyperbole. Claiborne has played well above the normal rookie CB even a top ten one. His cost is a separate issue to his play. Crawford plays well esp for being an injured rookie. He had trouble walking off the field in the Atl game and he was still getting decent pressure. I look for him to be at least pretty dang good. The rest get incompletes as they should with Hanna being an intriguing pick so far.

Now I would agree this three year clip is better than Jerry's norm, but Jerry's norm is horrific. There's a huge gap from that to quality and I think it's a real stretch to claim we're on a "pretty good run" here with our drafting. In fact, if you look at the 4th round on, when teams build their quality depth, we're still pretty bad.

Would I like better? Sure but the haul is pretty decent and may turn out a good deal better than that.

I don't care who says it. Anyone who tries to tell me Jerry Jones is kind of like an athletic director, an empty suit and doesn't routinely exercise his power as GM and final decision maker on this team is wrong. Way wrong. He wouldn't covet the gig so much if he didn't like the power.

So what we have here is one really good player but he's injury prone. He may or may not have a great career because of it. Dez is an infant mentally. We all know he's not reaching his potential. Lissemore is a rotational sub.

We stand a very good chance of coming out of the 2012 draft with, wait for it, a cornerback. ~confetti~.....~party noise makers~

Now I would agree this three year clip is better than Jerry's norm, but Jerry's norm is horrific. There's a huge gap from that to quality and I think it's a real stretch to claim we're on a "pretty good run" here with our drafting. In fact, if you look at the 4th round on, when teams build their quality depth, we're still pretty bad.

How nice for you. Risen Star's a fine poster. He just happens to be wrong about how much talent we've been able to add to the roster the last three seasons.

Bluestang;4839725 said:

Yet the drama persists with other threads, doesn't it?

Missed this earlier. The 'drama' in the other threads right now is just a bunch of depressed Cowboys fans who don't handle their frustration and disappointment very well. It poisons debate, mostly because the unhappy try desperately to make every thread about whatever they happen to be unhappy about, and it's annoying.

I distinguish it from the problems you get when there's personal dislike between posters that lets discussions become about the posters rather than the football topics. It's a fine line, and one I've crossed over a few times myself, but it's an important distinction.

How nice for you. Risen Star's a fine poster. He just happens to be wrong about how much talent we've been able to add to the roster the last three seasons.

I'm wrong? How so? I've pretty much said the 1st through 3rd round picks aren't an issue the last three years but we haven't added much from the 4th round on.

I don't include UDFAs because your comment dealt with the draft. That isn't the draft. That's after the draft. Of course I have a completely different opinion on Phil Costa than you do anyway.

I also don't prop up 4th round picks if they play in a few games for a couple of teams. Nor do I crown a return man for one return. See Dantzler, Woodrow. You're grading on a fan curve. The fact of the matter is only one player taken from rounds 4-7 the last three years has a real role in the offense or defense of this team. Sean Lissemore.

Now could this change? Sure. Wilber could arrive. A team of doctors could patch Matt Johnson back together. But as we sit here today, there's been almost nobody you can claim is quality depth. We have a crisis along our interior OL. Our 4th round pick from 2011 should help to fill it. Instead we're sifting through the veteran scrap heap to find anything serviceable and giving up more picks in the process. So I'm failing to see all this talent we're adding. I see top heavy draft classes. Which is an admitted improvement. Under Jerry, they usually don't weigh anything. But a "pretty good run" it does not make.

Ciskowski doesn't get to draft anyone. He compiles the information and leaves it for the decision makers on the team to decide.

But if you feel that way, what do you say about Ciskowski's boss, the VP of Personnel, only having the gig because he's the Owner's son?

And what has Ciskowski proven anyway? Has he ever been part of a winner?

Yes he doesn't get to draft anyone and makes recommendations to drafting certain players. So far, the results speak for themselves. I think he has done a pretty good job for what he does. Just look at who we drafted the last few years and you can see evidence that our personnel is now being filled with good quality players.

Now let me ask you this - would you welcome another one of Garrett's brothers to do the compilation and helping to selecting and drafting players? I wouldn't. I want someone who has proven of bringing results to his profession rather than someone getting the job just because his the brother of the head coach.

Yes he doesn't get to draft anyone and makes recommendations to drafting certain players. So far, the results speak for themselves. I think he has done a pretty good job for what he does. Just look at who we drafted the last few years and you can see evidence that our personnel is now being filled with good quality players.

Now let me ask you this - would you welcome another one of Garrett's brothers to do the compilation and helping to selecting and drafting players? I wouldn't. I want someone who has proven of bringing results to his profession rather than someone getting the job just because his the brother of the head coach.

First, you avoided my very relevant question. If the thought of a Garrett coming in to be the assistant to the VP of Personnel upsets you, then what do you have to say about Stephen Jones heading our personnel department all these years simply because he's the owner's son?

What results speak for themselves? Usually people say that when the results back up their stance. If we're going by results, every single member of the front office of this team would have been fired years ago, Tom Ciskowski included.

Seriously. What am I missing? Because all I've seen is a team with talent issues.

To answer your question, no....I probably wouldn't like a Garrett getting the gig. It would feel like the same nepotism that has Stephen Jones pretending he's a personnel expert. I love this team. I want it ran by the best. Not taken hostage by family.

I believe the samething was said when Ireland went to Miami with Bill.

Ireland was dubbed an "information gatherer" by Jerry Jones himself.

So Ciskowski suddenly is more than that?

It does not matter who gathers the information.

The GM still has the final say.

What Ryan is implying is that Ciskowski found him good talent and Jerry Jones concurred.

Well, that's just amazing news.

Ryan asked for the talent just like the myriad of other coaches that have had Jones' ear over the years. That still does not excuse his complete and utter ineptitude in knowing personnel, intimately, like the majority of general managers in this league.

Wade Phillips campaigned for Jason Williams. That did not work out too well.

One person had to allow the pick to go through and it was not Ciskowski.

I'm wrong? How so? I've pretty much said the 1st through 3rd round picks aren't an issue the last three years but we haven't added much from the 4th round on.

I don't include UDFAs because your comment dealt with the draft. That isn't the draft. That's after the draft. Of course I have a completely different opinion on Phil Costa than you do anyway.

I also don't prop up 4th round picks if they play in a few games for a couple of teams. Nor do I crown a return man for one return. See Dantzler, Woodrow. You're grading on a fan curve. The fact of the matter is only one player taken from rounds 4-7 the last three years has a real role in the offense or defense of this team. Sean Lissemore.

Now could this change? Sure. Wilber could arrive. A team of doctors could patch Matt Johnson back together. But as we sit here today, there's been almost nobody you can claim is quality depth. We have a crisis along our interior OL. Our 4th round pick from 2011 should help to fill it. Instead we're sifting through the veteran scrap heap to find anything serviceable and giving up more picks in the process. So I'm failing to see all this talent we're adding. I see top heavy draft classes. Which is an admitted improvement. Under Jerry, they usually don't weigh anything. But a "pretty good run" it does not make.

Yes. You're wrong. The point is, we're selecting players from college well right now, and I'm happy to see that continue. If you care to parse that in order to dance around the reality of the point I'm making, I won't beg to argue with you about it. It's the same scouts, the same coaches, selecting the same starters from the same batch of college players. You know it. I know it. Everyone reading the thread knows it.

If you don't look at games started or years in the league to evaluate the league-worthiness of players, that's also on you. It's relevant, and the Cowboys do a decent job at finding players who can at least fill roles. Not every draft pick makes a squad. Not all of them are active for games. Not all of them make it to their second contracts. The fact is, there are percentages for these things, and, while you may be unhappy with what you've seen out of Dallas's picks recently, relative to the competition, they don't do a bad job. That is, unless for whatever reason you don't want to credit them for finding starters in college free agency for no other reason than it unravels your point.

Finally, re: Harris, if you don't want to consider 18.9 yards/return and being 2nd in the NFL in a limited sample 'emerged' then that's fine with me, too, but don't pretend I'm the one grading on the curve. Also, 'emerged' and 'crowned' do not mean the same thing. If you're not willing to judge the guy on his performance because you're not sure it's going to continue, that's your prerogative, but let's just make sure we're clear that I'm going off of performance here, and not my expectation. Might he regress? Sure. We can then say he submerged if that makes you feel better about throwing around that particular adjective.

2(36) = Jordy Nelson (WR) - Had his breakout year in 2011, now a starter
2(56) = Brian Bohm (QB) - waived in 2009, now plays for the Las Vegas Locomotives
2(60) = Patrick Lee (DB) - waived in 2011, now plays with the Oakland Raiders
3(91) = Jermichael Finley (TE) - starter w/ 15 career TDs
4(102) = Jeremy Thompson (DE) - waived in 2009, retired in 2010 with undisclosed medical condition
4(135) = Josh Sitton (T) - become the starter in 2009, named a Pro Bowl alternate in 2010
5(150) = Breno Giacomini (T) - waived in 2010, is currently on the Seahawks roster as a starter
7(209) = Matt Flynn (QB) - back-up QB who was not retained in 2012 and signed with the Seahawks and couldn't beat a rookie QB for starting job
7(217) = Brett Swain (WR) - waived in 2011, now is with the 49ers

2009:

1(9) = B.J. Raji (DT) - became the starter in 2010, selected to the Pro Bowl in 2011, still the starting NT for the defense
1(26) = Clay Matthews (LB) - Enough said, right?
4(109) = T.J. Lang (T) - became the starter in 2011
5(145) = Quinn Johnson (RB) - waived in 2010, now with the Tennesee Titans
5(162) = Jamon Meredith (T) - made the PS that year, but then signed with the Bills that year. Now is with the Tampa Bay Buccaneers
5(182) = Jarius Wynn (DE) - waived in 2010, now with the Tennesse Titans
6(187) = Brandon Underwood (DB) - waived in 2011, now with the Oaklnad Raiders
7(218) = Brad Jones (LB) - started last 3 games this season after injuries

2011:
1(32) = Derek Sherrod (T) - hasn't started a single game
2(64) = Randall Cobb (WR) - started 4 games this year after injuries at the WR position, has 6 TDs on the year, 7 TDs for his career
3(96) = Alex Green (RB) - started 3 games this year after injuries, 0 career TDs
4(131) = Davon House (DB) - special teamer
5(141) = D.J. Williams (TE) - started 2 games this season after injuries
6(179) = Caleb Schlauderaff (OL) - traded to NYJ for undisclosed pick
6(186) = D.J. Smith (LB) - started in 6 games this year due to injuries
6(197) = Ricky Elmore (DL) - waived after training camp, now is with the Cleveland Browns
7(218) = Ryan Taylor (TE) - has one career TD, backup player
7(233) = Lawrnce Guy (DT) - went IR is rookie season, then made the PS the following year. The Colts signed him off the practice squad

Yes. You're wrong. The point is, we're selecting players from college well right now, and I'm happy to see that continue. If you care to parse that in order to dance around the reality of the point I'm making, I won't beg to argue with you about it. It's the same scouts, the same coaches, selecting the same starters from the same batch of college players. You know it. I know it. Everyone reading the thread knows it.

So basically despite everything I just said about the Cowboys' picks in the 4th through 7th round being factual and only 1 useful depth player currently is on the roster from it, they are doing a quality job of finding talent there because you say so.

Facts. You.

I'm weighing it out. Give me a minute.

Ya know what? They're on a hell of a run. I can feel another decent depth player coming in those rounds within the next three years. Hold on to your hat.

If you don't look at games started or years in the league to evaluate the league-worthiness of players, that's also on you. It's relevant, and the Cowboys do a decent job at finding players who can at least fill roles. Not every draft pick makes a squad. Not all of them are active for games. Not all of them make it to their second contracts. The fact is, there are percentages for these things, and, while you may be unhappy with what you've seen out of Dallas's picks recently, relative to the competition, they don't do a bad job. That is, unless for whatever reason you don't want to credit them for finding starters in college free agency for no other reason than it unravels your point.

Good luck finding the right shade of lipstick for the pig that is Akwasi Owusu-Ansah. Cmon, man. I actually liked the pick. I was wrong. He has been a complete waste. He's done nothing in Dallas to make anyone think otherwise. If you can't admit that was a bad pick, you just aren't being reasonable.

Finally, re: Harris, if you don't want to consider 18.9 yards/return and being 2nd in the NFL in a limited sample 'emerged' then that's fine with me, too, but don't pretend I'm the one grading on the curve. Also, 'emerged' and 'crowned' do not mean the same thing. If you're not willing to judge the guy on his performance because you're not sure it's going to continue, that's your prerogative, but let's just make sure we're clear that I'm going off of performance here, and not my expectation. Might he regress? Sure. We can then say he submerged if that makes you feel better about throwing around that particular adjective.

Yeah, Harris has done well in his brief time as a returner this year. But this is like crowning (no difference than emerged) a RB for carrying a 5.0 yards per carry through his first three games. Woody Dantzler had a very brief, very productive stint as a returner.......and that was about that.

If we're sitting here a year from now still talking about Harris' quality punt returning, then we can say he's legit and raise the Cowboys' total to a backup DL and a punt returner out of the 14 picks they had in those rounds the last three years.

2(36) = Jordy Nelson (WR) - Had his breakout year in 2011, now a starter
2(56) = Brian Bohm (QB) - waived in 2009, now plays for the Las Vegas Locomotives
2(60) = Patrick Lee (DB) - waived in 2011, now plays with the Oakland Raiders
3(91) = Jermichael Finley (TE) - starter w/ 15 career TDs
4(102) = Jeremy Thompson (DE) - waived in 2009, retired in 2010 with undisclosed medical condition
4(135) = Josh Sitton (T) - become the starter in 2009, named a Pro Bowl alternate in 2010
5(150) = Breno Giacomini (T) - waived in 2010, is currently on the Seahawks roster as a starter
7(209) = Matt Flynn (QB) - back-up QB who was not retained in 2012 and signed with the Seahawks and couldn't beat a rookie QB for starting job
7(217) = Brett Swain (WR) - waived in 2011, now is with the 49ers

2009:

1(9) = B.J. Raji (DT) - became the starter in 2010, selected to the Pro Bowl in 2011, still the starting NT for the defense
1(26) = Clay Matthews (LB) - Enough said, right?
4(109) = T.J. Lang (T) - became the starter in 2011
5(145) = Quinn Johnson (RB) - waived in 2010, now with the Tennesee Titans
5(162) = Jamon Meredith (T) - made the PS that year, but then signed with the Bills that year. Now is with the Tampa Bay Buccaneers
5(182) = Jarius Wynn (DE) - waived in 2010, now with the Tennesse Titans
6(187) = Brandon Underwood (DB) - waived in 2011, now with the Oaklnad Raiders
7(218) = Brad Jones (LB) - started last 3 games this season after injuries

2011:
1(32) = Derek Sherrod (T) - hasn't started a single game
2(64) = Randall Cobb (WR) - started 4 games this year after injuries at the WR position, has 6 TDs on the year, 7 TDs for his career
3(96) = Alex Green (RB) - started 3 games this year after injuries, 0 career TDs
4(131) = Davon House (DB) - special teamer
5(141) = D.J. Williams (TE) - started 2 games this season after injuries
6(179) = Caleb Schlauderaff (OL) - traded to NYJ for undisclosed pick
6(186) = D.J. Smith (LB) - started in 6 games this year due to injuries
6(197) = Ricky Elmore (DL) - waived after training camp, now is with the Cleveland Browns
7(218) = Ryan Taylor (TE) - has one career TD, backup player
7(233) = Lawrnce Guy (DT) - went IR is rookie season, then made the PS the following year. The Colts signed him off the practice squad