Slashdot videos: Now with more Slashdot!

View

Discuss

Share

We've improved Slashdot's video section; now you can view our video interviews, product close-ups and site visits with all the usual Slashdot options to comment, share, etc. No more walled garden! It's a work in progress -- we hope you'll check it out (Learn more about the recent updates).

An anonymous reader writes "The Scientific and Technical Research Council of Turkey (TÜBITAK) has put a stop to the publication and sale of all books in its archives that support the theory of evolution, daily Radikal has reported. The books have long been listed as “out of stock” on TÜBTAK's website, but their further publication is now slated to be stopped permanently. Titles by Richard Dawkins, Alan Moorehead, Stephen Jay Gould, Richard Levontin and James Watson are all included in the list of books that will no longer be available to Turkish readers. In early 2009, a huge uproar occurred when the cover story of a publication by TÜBITAK was pulled, reportedly because it focused on Darwin’s theory of evolution."

Not just Islamic countries. We still have "under god" in the pledge of allegiance. A phrase added during socialization in an attempt to program our children in the 1950's and has resulted with court battles by children to get rid of it. And how secular are we when someone sticking a ten commandments mural in a state building causes a giant court and public fight when it's obvious the damn thing shouldn't be there in the first place. Another phrase from the 1950's "Be the best you can be" or something like that pushed by a general when a more apt phrase might be "Be what you want to be". I won't get into the abortion, teaching creationism, and religious manipulation of politics. The US may have a secular government but it has a religious populace that just won't keep religion out of it. To be honest we're not that far from Turkey.

Christianity, and especially the vatican, are extremely pro-science compared
to other religions.

Wrong. Like any religion, they lay claim to the "higher" truth. What you are talking about is tolerance of a "lower" scientific truth as long as it doesn't usurp the more important higher truth being claimed by the religion. And even that was paid in blood.

To put it bluntly, scientific knowledge is incompatible with gods. We know it, they know it. To preserve face and influence, christian religions will acknowledge science's truth while falsely claiming that there is another truth out there (unproven and full of logically inconsistent claims) which is nevertheless claimed to be coexistent and ultimately more important. Basically, religion is like the kid who says to your face he'll clean up his room but never actually does it.

It seems more like Turkish government types are simply fudging. Those more advanced Turks who can read English have access to the full range scientific content. Those less literate types that rely on government subsidised books in Turkish can be temporarily placated.

Turkey doesn't seem to mind following behind the world by a couple of centuries. The Ottoman Empire refused to allow the printing press until 1729, but closed it, then reopened it again later in 1784. Same group objected to it as to evolution, the all-knowing theocratic wise men. Religion = Suppression of Thought. Science = Freedom of Thought.

From the standpoint of social structure, there is a scientific basis for religion. Children who are told some being is watching are more likely to leave a plate of cookies alone when asked even if they don't believe that the being will do anything but watch.

In general, people are more likely to behave in an ethical manner when they believe someone will see what they do, even if they don't expect any consequences for being seen.

I would prefer that we let a benevolent sky being do the watching rather than the guys back at the precinct.

That isn't to say that there isn't a long history of organized religion abusing the power of belief for their own ends, of course. That is what I personally object to. Perhaps if the abusers had actually believed someone was watching...

I think you are right. I've been told several times over the years by religious people that I can't be a moral person because I don't believe in God. My response is that if it requires fear of God to make you act morally then you really aren't very moral but just reacting to the threat of punishment. If you do the right thing even though no one's looking (including God) then you can really call yourself a moral person.

This one [bahai.org] doesn't quite hold science to be a sacrement, but DOES hold that:

If religious beliefs and opinions are found contrary to the standards of science, they are mere superstitions and imaginations; for the antithesis of knowledge is ignorance, and the child of ignorance is superstition. Unquestionably there must be agreement between true religion and science. If a question be found contrary to reason, faith and belief in it are impossible, and there is no outcome but wavering and vacillation.

Then I will. Religion exists because lights in the sky go boom and it doesn't rain when you want it to and things happen you can't understand.

Guess what, today we can understand those things and so religion is quite literally at odds with modern life. Sure we dress it up and ignore the ugly parts 'we' don't like but then somebody else decides, hey smiting neighbors is a good thing and justifies it with the Bible or whatever your religious source is.

If it ain't based on cold hard facts it has no business governing anyone other than the individual who believes it.

Did they even try? Well, yeah.
"In the years following 1926, Mustafa Kemal introduced a radical departure from previous reformations established by the Ottoman Empire.[73] For the first time in history, Islamic law was separated from secular law, and restricted to matters of religion.[73] Mustafa Kemal said
“ We must liberate our concepts of justice, our laws and our legal institutions from the bonds which, even though they are incompatible with the needs of our century, still hold a tight grip on us.[74] ”
On 1 March 1926, the Turkish penal code was passed. It was modelled after the Italian Penal Code. On 4 October 1926, Islamic courts were closed. Establishing the civic law needed time, so Mustafa Kemal delayed the inclusion of the principle of laïcité until 5 February 1937.
Ottoman practice discouraged social interaction between men and women in keeping with Islamic practice of sex segregation. Mustafa Kemal began developing social reforms very early, as was evident in his personal journal. He and his staff discussed issues like abolishing the veiling of women and the integration of women into the outside world. The clue on how he was planning to tackle the issue was stated in his journal on November 1915;
“ The social change can come by (1) educating capable mothers who are knowledgeable about life; (2) giving freedom to women; (3) a man can change his morals, thoughts, and feelings by leading a common life with a woman; as there is an inborn tendency towards the attraction of mutual affection.[75] ”
Mustafa Kemal needed a new civil code to establish his second major step of giving freedom to women. The first part was the education of girls and was established with the unification of education. On 4 October 1926, the new Turkish civil code passed. It was modelled after the Swiss Civil Code."
Wiki

I think GP's point was that Turkey did have a separation between religion and state, and it actually did wonders - it transformed the country from a rump of the "sick man of Europe" into a rapidly developing country with steadily growing standard of living.

Unfortunately, it wasn't a grassroots movement, but came from above. So once the leader who pushed it through died, his followers' resolve grew steadily weaker with each passing generation - and now they have surrendered the country to Islamists.

Guess what, today we can understand those things and so religion is quite literally at odds with modern life.

Some religions are, some aren't. Most of the incompatibility comes from dogma, which varies over time and among sects. It may surprise you to know that several major religious sects support teaching evolution and actively oppose teaching creation.

Sure we dress it up and ignore the ugly parts 'we' don't like but then somebody else decides, hey smiting neighbors is a good thing and justifies it with the Bible or whatever your religious source is.

As if there were never another pretext for war besides the Bible, and all atheists were pacifists. People who want to smite their neighbors will make up a reason to do it, religion or no.

If it ain't based on cold hard facts it has no business governing anyone other than the individual who believes it.

I wholeheartedly agree that other people's religion should not govern me, and by the Golden Rule that also means my religion should not govern anyone else. However, I would point out that the separation of church and state, which you elegantly and passionately summarize here, is itself not based on "cold hard facts." It's ideology. Not all ideology is bad.

“Anti-intellectualism has been a constant thread winding its way through our political and cultural life, nurtured by the false notion that democracy means that 'my ignorance is just as good as your knowledge.'” - Isaac Asimov

Turkey's government was radically secular for close to a century, since Kemal Ataturk's nationalists kicked out the Allies, Sultanate, and Caliphate after the WW I fall of the Ottoman Empire. They were fairly aggressive about it - requiring western-style clothing, banning fezzes, and suppressing non-Turkish cultures (such as the Kurds), enforcing use of a Latin-based alphabet instead of Arabic alphabet (and too bad for you if your name used not-officially-Turkish letters.) They did strongly push education of women, banned headscarves even for women who wanted to wear them, and let women vote (at least in the years they were paying attention to votes.) They've even had women as Prime Minister. Islam was still permitted as a religion, and was still the most common religion, but the government was not Islamic.

They stayed secular until a few years ago when more Islamists got elected to Parliament, but have loosened up since then.

Turkey's been doing relatively well economically, especially relative to the general economic drain-circling that the EU has been experiencing for the last couple of years and I don't see them as eager to join in the mess that the Euro Zone has become.

What they seem more interested in is regaining their Ottoman Empire regional standing. I keep waiting for them to say "enough" and intervene in Syria, allowing them to recreate some of the Ottoman empire. Lebanon would fall into that orbit very quickly in the absence of Syrian influence.

For years the EU has been putting up barriers and slowing down the processes that has stalled the talked for the better part of a decade. This ranges from petty (Greece & Cyprus) to cheap political grandstanding (Islamophobia, cheap labor). Would you want to join a club where the petty internal politics didn’t want you? And this was before the financial crisis.

Personally, I think if Turkey had been allowed to join this would have cemented Turkey into a secular block allowing

"I think they're less enthusiastic about joining than they used to be."

Good. Unless Europeans hate their own culture they have no reason to defile it by admitting Superstitionist countries. It's taken long enough to weaken Superstition in Europe itself.

Anyone who admires Islam should be willing to move to the most Islamic countries. I gently suggest the Kingdom of Saudi Arabia. THAT is the sort of society religion builds. Religionists should go wallow in it.

Wow, I thought the US was the only stand-out / weird-country with anti-evolution nuts in power.

I guess there are other countries in this unfortunate "club"

If you don't want to believe in it (or that it's even possible) then fine... believe in whatever you want.

But stop trying to prevent other people from learning it. Please. And please stop trying to pass religion off as science... such as those museums that say Adam rode on a dinosaur, and that dinosaurs were vegens until the apple incident.

Wow, I thought the US was the only stand-out / weird-country with anti-evolution nuts in power.

The US is just the squeakiest wheel, because we have an open press and debate our problems for the whole world to see. I can easily believe other countries have plenty of dirty laundry and just keep it to themselves.

No, it actually is one of the worse but Turkey is an even more extreme example, here's a quote from WP:

A study published in Science compared attitudes about evolution in the United States, 32 European countries (including Turkey) and Japan. The only country where acceptance of evolution was lower than in the United States was Turkey (25%).

Only the Abrahamic world religions in general and Protestant Christianity in particular has a big issue with evolution, this graph [wikipedia.org] shows how in the US Buddhists and Hindus are the most accepting. The national figures for India are also very strong and in line with western Europe. Sure a lot other countries have other vices, but creationism is usually not one of them.

Actually, it's more a matter of perspective. While it might seem that the whole world is following the open debate about evolution vs. creationism from the US point of view, actually, most of the world isn't.

I don't think he was limiting his comment to just evolution. Lots of countries have lots of dirty laundry in lots of areas. The US has an open press and a massive presence on the Internet, plus a significant fraction of total world population and a disproportionate influence over the world. Hence, it's laundry gets aired very openly.

Wow, I thought the US was the only stand-out / weird-country with anti-evolution nuts in power.

ARE YOU KIDDING? Please tell us you were kidding, that you're not *that* provincial, that you believe Western rationalism really is the norm throughout the entire world, including Muslim countries and Africa?

Please tell us you were kidding, that you're not *that* provincial, that you believe Western rationalism really is the norm throughout the entire world, including Muslim countries and Africa?

Over the years I've noticed this is a pretty common theme on Slashdot - You could post a story about some backwater, torture-filled nation lead by some despotic religious zealot and 26 replies will immediately say "Yeah, but the USA is TEN TIMES WORSE!"

Over the years I've noticed this is a pretty common theme on Slashdot - You could post a story about some backwater, torture-filled nation lead by some despotic religious zealot and 26 replies will immediately say "Yeah, but the USA is TEN TIMES WORSE!"

Over the years I've noticed this is a pretty common theme on Slashdot - people point out problems in other countries, others draw parallels to the US and some pseudo-patriot type comes along and exaggerates those parallels in order to complain about the people pointing them out.

The problem with your complaining is that while Americans have very little influence over other what other governments do in other countries, here at least we claim to have the democratic process in order to fix our own problems. But you can't fix what you don't know about. "My country, right or wrong. If right to be kept right, if wrong to be set right."

I just don't get it. How are we not animals? How do we not recognize the extreme similarities between us and our animal cousins? The theory of evolution isn't "a fact" but it is a general truth which is evolving and growing as our understanding grows. And frankly, some things are just obvious... painfully obvious. Ever see those growing fetus diagrams where you can't tell if it's human or something else because we ALL start off looking the same?

Sorry, but just no.

And when people work so hard to deny, hide and destroy information which is contrary to their beliefs surely don't understand the nature of learning, understanding or of thought. I guarantee you that even if by some bizarre reality, all information about our animal nature and the notion of evolution vanished from the earth in a flash, people would STILL arrive at this obvious conclusion just exactly as people all over the world at different times came to realize that "air" has mass.

About the SUUURE thing... fine... i don't believe it. But honestly, I don't try to convince anyone evolution is right as I believe everyone should just chill and believe what they want. The problem is, said person would not stop trying to convince me HE was right. Until I walk away.

That, and he was trying to use science to explain the teeth thing that even I know was not science.

Turkey is the perfect reflection of the US, only switch Muslim for Christian.

As a green-eyed American Caucasian, when I started my 6 month consulting gig in Istanbul in 2007-2008 I was kinda scared at first. I saw all these minarets poking up from mosques everywhere, heard the call to prayer a few times each day, and folks back home were pushing a law that would officially say Turkey committed genocide. But then I started working with my technical counter parts and guess what? There was the quiet guy, there was the hilarious guy (we're still friends), there was the unbelievably smart guy (still the best Oracle consultant I've ever worked with), there was the hot girl, there was the guy who talked my ear off about how backwards he thought Muslims were, and there was the kindhearted Muslim guy who made sure I never ate lunch alone. Every archetype that I knew from the US was represented. I found them brilliant and extremely motivated. And I even saw a lot of women in high level jobs wearing fashionable clothes.

Then I got to know the city, saw some of the music scene, a little of the club scene, and soaked up some of the history. They have their own George Washington named Mustafa Kemal Atatürk who in 1923 established the Republic of Turkey, switched them from Arabic script to Western European (making my job of typing on their keyboards much easier!), and separated Mosque from State.

But exactly like in the US the religious groups find ways to work their agenda into the secular government. For example, you can't buy pork. Why? Because from political pressure it was found "unhealthy" and one by one the farms were shutdown until there were none. There's lots of these examples, including the article to which we're responding. Once my eyes got adjusted I almost felt as if I were in the US, even the mosques I realized were no more numerous than our churches.

Their economy is far stronger than Romania, Greece, Croatia, Hungary, and Portugal, all members of the European Union, and the EU would do well to admit them. Turkey is the litmus test for Muslims and Christians. They are us and we are them. If we can make it work there I'm afraid we won't make it together anywhere.

Excellent post from someone who has obviously traveled further than the corner store. Re Genocide, The US committed genocide against the native Indians and my own country committed genocide against the Aborigines, "our people" look away from that history in the same way Turks look away from theirs.

Incorrect. Only countries where a religious group believes that evolution is in opposition to their religion does that happen. In India 85% [britishcouncil.org] believe that Evolution is compatible with their religious beliefs, and I wouldn't consider Hindus to be any less crazy than any other religion out there.

I said as a SCIENCE. I think public schools SHOULD have a separate class to learn the beliefs of other cultures... if for no other reason than to give everyone a better understanding of everyone else. But such a class would be sociology.

Some schools here want creationism thought as a science. As in, squeeze it in between Astronomy and Physics. But... what they do does not follow any method of the scientific method nor to they even give anything close to scientific for the theory. The "facts" they use a

Education is not religion and isn't treated as such. We don't force religion on anyone because it doesn't help you. Forcing an education on you DOES help you....and the rest of us who would have to support your sorry ignorant ass.

I'm an American citizen of Turkish ancestry, and the fact that the US and Turkey come in at 49 and 50 of a list of 50 western nations in terms of percentage of population that believe in evolution upsets me to no end. When Erdogan and his cronies took over the first thing they did was jail all the generals. Why? Because the military always would step in and keep the country from getting too Islamic. Well the US decided to back Erdogan when he did this and now look whats happening, one more slippery step towards Turkey becoming a theocracy.

Considering the power the military has traditionally had, what kept them from doing this early or even late in the Erdogan era?

I'm familiar (at least from what I read in the NY Times...) with the jailing of the military officers (most ex-military from what I read) on somewhat shaky grounds, but I would think that if the active duty military wanted to depose him, they would easily as the vast majority of the officer corps and probably most senior enlisted had likely already been vetted for their secularism a

Actually the US gvt. actively supports what the current prime-minister of Turkey does. They also actively supported the egyptian dictator until millions of people raised up and took back their country from him, Your gvt. seems to make a lot of bad calls supporting all kinds of bad people. Bin Laden was one of them for f's sake.
Yeah, you have a lot to be proud of man.

By the way, we need to request that Turkey give us all their wheels and sources of fire in exchange for pretty stones we'll happily provide them. When they ask why, we tell to just ask us again in 20 years, if they still can.

I suspect that Richard Dawkins & co. may be more than willing to distribute Turkish translations of their books on their own initiative.;-) Perhaps even for free, it's not such a big market, and Haharun Hahayaya needs some counterweight anyway.

I have friends in Turkey. Two doctors my wife and I met when we traveled there 12 years ago. They were secular, but bathed in the culture of Islam. I am sure that they are not happy about repressing science.

When we traveled through Turkey the vast majority of people were very friendly and helpful. This is true with the Muslims I met just a couple months ago in Jordan. However, we could not help but notice as friendly as they were, about 1/2 of the population lived as slaves. One vocal male friendly Mu

This news is from Jan 14. Turkish state science council denied this rumor the next day (Jan 15) and provided some evidence that it's not true. The newspaper published it and did not follow the story anymore.

Essentially it was a political propaganda department and like all departments of it's type with a sliver of truth(maybe) miles underneath a cesspool of lies. Where it's profession is to twist the truth to unrecognizability. The primary goal to manipulate the target of their interests. People working for such ilk along with a

Belief has nothing to do with science. All science is testable, or it is not science.

a) genetic inheritance is observable in a lab if you have a couple of weeks and handful of fliesb) genetic inheritance and mortality leads to evolutionc) we have fossil records to support (b) occured in the past