12 Gauge, AR-10 Based Shotgun Now a Reality

If you want a high capacity, semi-automatic tactical shotgun feeding from a box magazine, the Saiga-12 is pretty much your only option. Ho hum. But wait, a challenger appears!

Intrepid Tactical Solutions is releasing the AR-12, a 12-gauge shotgun upper that fits on standard SR-25/PMAG type AR-10 lowers. The upper is piston driven. The user must install a stouter, shotgun-specification recoil spring in the buffer tube, but otherwise the lower half of the gun remains the same as an AR-10. An 8-round single stack magazine has been designed to fit in the big AR-10 magazine well.

The genius of the AR-12 may also be its downfall — proprietary ammunition. Traditional 12 gauge ammo doesn’t get along well with box magazines due to the rims of each round stacking up against each other, and there are other complications as well. Ask Saiga-12 owners and they will tell you about the long, hard road to getting one of those guns to work reliably with cheap, low-brass ammunition. Intrepid went outside the box and designed a new, all-polymer 12 gauge round that resembles a scaled-down 40mm grenade, with a rebated rim, round nose cone, and “payload” area containing the shot. This new RAS-12 ammo is said to be key to the AR-12’s reliability and terminal ballistic performance.

Intrepid claims that they have a deal with a major ammunition manufacturer to produce good quantities of high-quality ammo for the AR-12 system. This manufacturer has bet that a certain market segment is willing to move on from the 100-plus-year old standard smokeless powder 12 gauge shotshell and bring the tactical shotgun truly into the 21st century. However, bigger companies than Intrepid have recently tried and failed to introduce promising new cartridges to the US market (a lonely 45 G.A.P. Glock collects dust in the “Used Firearms” display case at my work, mute testimony to this fact). A striking number of American shooters absolutely refuse to buy any gun requiring ammunition not normally stocked at Walmart.

Is the new RAS-12 ammo the next big thing? Or will it go the way of flechette ammo, the CAWS prototypes of the 1980s, and so many other bright ideas that simply never caught on for one reason or another?

Lost me at proprietary ammo, since my yearly income goes to more important things such as food and bills, its nice to not have to spend alot of money on cheap standard 12 gauge ammo. If this design does make it to market not only will the shotgun itself cost an arm and a leg but you can add the rest of your limbs for the ammo as well IMO.

bearerofbadtidings

helllo, as you might have noticed, current 12 ga shells are made out of plastic. they have that lil extra metal rim to make people feel good. look up “activ” shells from the 90s or so, they were all plastic with a rim… you guys soumd like a buncha spoiled sweet 16ers, “i only want a birthday cake if its chocolate!!!!” holy hell, try some vanilla you prudes!!!!

economic reality, ammo is scarce now even in standard calibers, you think an ammo maker is gonna turn resources from their huge backorders of .223, .308 and other American staples for some new wonder round that only works in a limited production gun? If they do it’ll be 2 or 3 dollars a round. F that

NV Gun Dude

Ready to whip out my credit card. Right up until I read about the proprietary ammo. Takes this gun completely off the table for me.

raven

My thoughts exactly. What a shame.

John184

I don’t know, innovation has to start somewhere, and people are always resistant to change. I’d like to see someone big like Remington pick up production.

bbmg

It would be a shame if economic realities got in the way of progress, but on the otherh and I fail to see how this round would really qualify as an improvement on the original.

CMonster

Even Remington making ammo won’t guarantee this succeeds. I own a .17 fireball and I can’t find brass to save my life. They stopped making the gun, wondering when they will stop making brass for it, at which point it becomes a relic and when my supplies run out, a club.

http://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=744667237 Scott Snoopy

it would be a shame if the SCUM…socialist communist utopian marxist.. politicians killed this shotgun

Alterocks

I literally screamed “YES!” when i read the headline, my room mate asked whats up, then immoaned in the middle of my excitement when i read about the ammo… price is important also. how much is the upper? $600 can buy a whole shotgun, i’m not sure if i would pay more than $1200 for an upper, thats Benelli territory, along with other semi auto shottys. but then again… AR-12g…

El Duderino

Yeah me too. Although I think rimless shotgun ammo is way overdue, it will take the US military/majority of LE agencies to pick a standard and change over. One company making 100 guns a year ain’t going to do it.

http://twitter.com/thebronze thebronze

Yep. Same here.

Fail.

Sam Suggs

its an attempt at a great idea if a company with suffient marketing and captal woulld pick it up and push every thing would be great but this is not going to happen this way

It all comes down to price. The shells would need to cost at least in the ball park of standard 12ga shells or its up hill fight becomes a shear cliff.

The 12ga shell is the two-edged sword of the Shotgun category. Its common place simplicity and ease of reloading are some of its greatest assests, but make almost every shotgun a hold over from 100 years ago. In the last 3 years we’ve had a number of approaches to designing higher capacity shotgun, all of which while innovative simply reinvent the wheel; they take roundabout ways to technologically improve ease of chambering when we’ve already solved that hurdle with the advent of box magazines. The greatest hurtle to using that more extensively across more shotgun platforms is the shell. In many ways though this is a solution waiting for a problem, this change is really only worthwhile if one were to consider a select-fire version of this weapon, which maybe part of this company longterm strategy.

Well they do say “Intrepid claims that they have a deal with a major ammunition manufacturer to produce good quantities of high-quality ammo for the AR-12 system. ”
So maybe is something like the .300 whisper

Giolli Joker

Proprietary ammo?
That’s cheating… and not in a smart way because you can hardly be in the game for long.
The concept and the ammo are cool, though… “MaxPayne No.wutever” will get rid of his Sledgehammer shotgun and pick up a much cooler AR-12… same for the guy in Expendables, AA-12 is old, even with FRAG-12 rounds…

phamnuwen

If you want a high capacity, semi-automatic tactical shotgun feeding from a box magazine, the Saiga-12 is pretty much your only option. Ho hum.

Well, no. Molot VEPR 12:

KeithF

Bought 1, outshines the Saiga very nicely. worth every cent. even shoots low brass well due to an auto regulator plug in the gas tube. VERY HAPPY with VEPR

creamy47

Agreed. Once the demand for a vepr goes along with price, I feel every tacticool bro will have one in their safe.

http://www.facebook.com/thomas.r.campbell1 Thomas R. Campbell

And the Akdal MKA1919, especially when rebuilt by Firebird Precision, and one of their design in development.

jim

whatever..

noob

if they want this to float, they should also sell kits to convert common pump shotguns to the new ammo… and sell the new ammo in slug and less lethal as well. it will have to be a massivereplacement of all 12ga platforms at once or it will fail.

a big contract with the army,dhs and fbi wouldnt hurt either

Just Curious

Is there a way to make something with roughly the same power/payload smaller than a 12 gauge shell?

keith m

how about a shotshell in .50 beowulf

RichH

Fail

Joe

Yeah, unless someone big picks this gun up and mass produced the ammo, I don’t see this gun doing too well. I’m all for advancing firearm tech, but they’re taking on a pretty big sacred cow/bit of technological inertia with this proprietary stuff. If they could get some other gun manufacturers on board with the new ammo, then they might have a chance if they can’t get a government contract.

TangledThorns

Finally, innovation. I’m hoping this really takes off.

Ian

You must share your dictionary with the rest of us.

Duray

He probably means that cartridge technology developed to shoot ducks 150 years ago may no longer be cutting edge for a fighting weapon.

Part of the reason it flopped is that it was effectively military only, at a time when militaries weren’t looking for semi-auto shotguns. Just look at the AA-12 to see how that approach is going.

The civilian market isn’t quite as lucrative as a big military contract, but it’s open to a much, much wider array of products in small quantities. With a good product and halfway decent marketing, you can sell enough to fund your next crazy idea. That’s basically Kel-Tec’s strategy, right? And they’re doing fine.

bbmg

The AA-12 appears not to have secured any orders in spite of the massive publicity, ultimately I don’t think the military is willing to abide by a weapon that can be outranged by an AK-47 – which is why they are more likely to go for underbarrel style shotguns like the Masterkey and XM26. As to the AR-12, it doesn’t seem to offer much benefit beyond the better feeding from the rimless cartridge, hardly comparable to Kel Tec in terms of innovation in my view. On the otherhand, kudos for making something different and good luck to ITS with making and selling this gun.

I remember that thing. A nice idea, but like some of the other bullpup shotguns, I wouldn’t pick it up unless it was semi-auto. That one in particular is begging to be semi-auto because I can’t see any way for it to be pump action and comfortable to use.

Lolinski

Why not make the magazine doublestack? Since they already made proprietary ammo that would facilitate this.

TGM

It is time to update the 12 ga. round. Have to start somewhere. Gun owners are very resistant to new calibers initially.

http://twitter.com/patrickhenry2nd Patrick Henry,The2nd

Agreed. I’m not a huge fan of the tactical shotguns out there now. This is exactly what I want, especially since I love the AR platform.

Sam Suggs

not always and not all of them but these guys dont have what it takes to get this going

Frosty_The_White_Man

As others said, the unique shells kill the purpose of the firearm. Any chance of a civilian AA12?

sdog

akdal mka 1919 has been around for over a year and does not use proprietary ammo.

john

Not a fan of the proprietary ammo which will surely cost way more than regular 12ga.

Marc

.17 HMR, .40 S&W, 357 SIG and the WSM family are examples of successful de-novo cartridge introductions. They just have to get enough big names on the boat to dismantle fears of lacking availability, and keep the price competitive.

Esh325

A very,very, risky proposition considering if the proposed legislation passes. They’ll have to focus on foreign civilian markets,military, and law enforcement if it passes.

Esh325

I really do like the idea of modernizing the 12 gauge shotgun. If the modernization attempts is enough improvement to make the shotgun more relevant again, I’m not sure.

Esh325

Why not make it maybe 20 gauge instead of 12 gauge? Be able to fit more cartridges in the magazine.

The Saiga-12 and the Akdal MK1919 will still have a huge advantage over this design – Weight. The AR-10/AR-308 variants are just plain heavy. Massive amounts of aluminum for the receivers makes them strong for .308, but not very light. I’m sure the barrel will be light, but then you’re adding a piston system, so more weight. I would bet dollars to donuts any day of the week that the S12 and MK1919 are lighter in weight than this sucker. And that’s before we even talk about the proprietary ammo.

KeepingMy870

It won’t be successful with proprietary ammo. All thumbs up until then. “We had to get past, 100 years of science and development…” BAD MOVE. Maybe the government can afford to buy them all up in bulk and use them against american citizens. Thumbs down.

http://www.facebook.com/john.daniels.9484 John Daniels

I’m glad someone finally decided to try rimless shotshells. It’s time to move out of the 19th century and into the 21st. The fact they managed to work this design into a standard AR-10A pattern design is even better.

creamy47

I think the vepr 12 with the mag well is still better than most everything maybe the new fostech?

Komrad

I’m really hoping this new ammo takes off. 12 ga is outdated. The rim holds back it’s use in anything other than tube fed guns.

http://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=767053319 James Patrick

I would love to see this take off, but I don’t see it happening. I think for a new cartridge to survive, they’ll need a government contract or get other gun manufacturers to offer guns in the same caliber. They also need more than one ammo manufacturer.

Guest

You all might be

David

Does anyone remember the 300-blackout/whisper dismissal a year or two ago? When first announced, everyone said “whatever, it’s just a 300 whisper, it’s been done, no one will pick it up.” Remington/AAC pushed it hard and now its probably more popular than the 6,Xmm rounds for the ar-15. If they can get the ammunition manufacturers behind this new round, they can have a winner. Until then, it will be a long hard road for them. Guys, don’t make the same mistake that FN and Bill Alexander did.

but the 300blk used the same AR-15 mag, and lower, you just needed a new upper. it didn’t “replace” any other “.300″ cartridge you previously had. “everybody” has a 12ga. everybody has 12ga ammo. now, it’s the same…but different.

so unless there is some way to make all other 12ga use this, i don’t see it taking off.

Guest

You all are saying the proprietary ammo will fail, but may I remind you all of 300BLK? If they market this properly, and get major manufacturers to make it, people it might just catch on, and I hope it does. Rimmed shotshells are dinosaurs.

vecdran

You all are saying the proprietary ammo will fail, but may I remind you all of 300BLK? Same deal. 7.62×39 AR conversions weren’t working, so someone made a new cartridge. Now granted, 300BLK only requires a new barrel, but consider how much a full custom Saiga costs.

If they market this properly, and get major manufacturers to make it, it might just catch on, and I hope it does. Rimmed shotshells are dinosaurs.

gunslinger

all well and good…until the ammo.

unless there is a way to make the new ammo usable in every other shotgun, i don’t see this going anywhere. who would buy a new type of AK except the 7.62×39 round has to be rimmed, i.e. a new cartridge?

sure the .300BLK is a “new” contender, but this 12ga is trying to take the place of the existing installed base of 12ga.

i just…just don’t see that happening.

nobody

My guess is that this will fail. I don’t see their proprietary ammunition taking off if the only advantage is use in a detachable magazine, they need something to attract people who use fixed magazine shotguns for this to take off. When AAC released the .300 AAC blackout, they didn’t just have a rifle round that was subsonic and good for use with a suppressor, if they did it would have disappeared as suppressors aren’t that popular, instead they also had a load for at that was equivalent to standard 7.62x39mm, but fed well from a straight magazine, so people who wanted their ar15 to shoot a larger bullet would also buy it. Now if they made this proprietary 12 gauge shell shorter or higher pressure so people could also hold more of them in a tube magazine or get 3 1/2 inch magnum velocities out of a shorter shell then it might take off.

Also is it just me or does the shell seem longer than a normal 2 3/4 inch shell, if it is then I’m pretty sure that this will disappear.

nobody

ADDED:

I wonder how that nose cone is going to effect the cost of reloading vs normal 12 gauge.

Giolli Joker

I think you should forget reloading: all polymer casing…

Vtb

Well. instead of developing custom 12ga round why not just to make this system with rifled barrel and new _rifle_ cartrige based on their 12ga cartrige for this system?
Something which can knock an elephant hard enough up to 300 yards?

Spencedaddy

either make it affordable (unlikely due to R&D) or make the ronds available to shoot in stuff like a Mossy 500 or an 870. if it performs better than traditional shot shells and i can start amassing ammo for an AR build with this….i could see it happening

if i had the cash I would move forward with it

Spencedaddy

the issue with .45GAP was that it didnt give everybody something amazing to work with.It was a .45 that was shorter….whoopty do

.300AAC gave people a big round to shoot out of their AR with a barrel swap that fed right, it was cheap, easily supressed, and gave exceptional ballistics
.357SIG gave people a super penetrating round that required, again, a barrel change on a .40SW and then you took your .40 to something that could punch through cars easy..which is why at least in TN, HWY Partrol guys carry it.

if you give people a SERIOUS reason to buy your ammo to do a job, they will buy it. if this can be done decently cheap, reliably, and give you all that you are used to out of a 12GA plus feeding through boxes, and being transferable to other weapons systems (Saiga, Vepr, Mossberg, Benelli, etc)

they might be onto the first real scattergun innovation in a LONG time. I support their efforts.

Crunkle

The only advantage the new round has is feeding smoothly from a box magazine over 5 rounds. To take full advantage of this capability you would need to design a new shotgun that uses a double stack magazine. Otherwise you end up with yard long magazines. All this would cost a bunch to plug a hole in the market I’m not sure exists.

Criticalthinkingiscritical

Considering ammo manufacturers can’t keep up with the demand for existing highly popular calibers I find it hard to believe one would bother to commit resources to a brand new cartridge that can only be used in only one gun.

anglosaxongamer

Can these proprietary shells be used in other shotguns? That might help with the whole availability issue.

Big Daddy

The first major mistake is to use the AR10 lower. If you are designing a weapon from the ground up that will use a new type of ammo you should start with a new lower. This would work a lot better in terms of selling points if the magazine were double stacked. That way the length would be acceptable with a 20 round magazine. This still sufferers from the same issue as the Saiga with ridiculously long magazines. So in my opinion they missed the boat and their idea is too flawed to succeed.

Second issue is that the shotgun itself is a niche weapon. Yes so many people have them and use them but for a limited reason. The Chinese military after testing them said they are too limited tactically to issue. But there are uses for them. As we all know military/LEO for breaching and short range engagements the shotgun is effective. For civilians skeet and hunting as well as home defense the shotgun is an effective tool. Also for LEO they can be loaded with non-lethal ammo easily for crowd control.

So right now everything you really need from a shotgun is already out there. This is something people want, they don’t need it. It might have been different if the magazine held 20 rounds and wasn’t 3 feet long, yes I’m exaggerating, but only a little. A normal length magazine holding 20 rounds would have been a game changer this is not.

I would also add the difficulty in changing the type of ammo you can use. The traditional shotgun has so much versatility in a tactical situation by easily changing ammo this does not have that, another issue against it. I’d take a tried and true pump if my life was on the line. With training you can go from one type of ammo to another quickly and that is one of the advantages of using a shotgun, with this weapon you lose that versatility.

http://twitter.com/MikeyGD253 MikeyG253

Proprietary ammo?!?! No thanks…

http://www.facebook.com/people/Jon-Bradley/1156077690 Jon Bradley

I’ll stick to my comrade, the S12.

kyle

The problem of rimlock has been solved before, why not apply that to the shotgun market

http://www.facebook.com/people/Jon-Bradley/1156077690 Jon Bradley

Gonna be worth something someday. One of those guns they didn’t make very many of.

http://www.facebook.com/jacob.bradfield Jacob Bradfield

I think the only way I would buy this, is if it was a reasonably priced weapon (on par with an M1014 and such) and the ammo was fairly cheap. I would love to have it, and I don’t mind the proprietary ammo, just as long as it’s cheap-ish.

Garrett

I feel like I am the only one who likes this. Bitch about the ammo all you want, that is why it is in the polymer case. If it costs $10 per box instead of $8, close enough for me. Don’t know about reloading, but if you can do it with regular 12 ga. shells, these just need some slightly different dies (maybe just the base to punch in a new primer is all you need).

I think the reason they used an AR10 lower is so they could sell just the upper as a conversion kit. Seems like a smart idea to me, but as someone mentioned before, I just hope it doesn’t cost more than $1000.

http://www.facebook.com/ruben.leal.75 Ruben Leal

finally some guys get off their asses to innovate and everyone craps on their ideas. i wish glock had 1 percent the innovation these guys have. and before u say what about the 45gap well that was a franken gun garbage. i dont know what possesed them on that one.

Tyson Chandler

I am one of the few that seems to like this idea. Granted, I am saying that without knowing the cost. Regardless, great idea to use the AR-10 platform. I think this can work, with time, a variety of ammo could be developed, also higher cap mags could be made. I am not ready to sound the death knell of this one yet. What is the motto of the SAS….Those who dare win? Time will tell

B

They screwed the pooch with proprietary ammo. It’s what has kept me from picking up a .50Beowulf upper.

Christopher Lambert

You’ve forgot to mention that the MKA-1919 has been available in the country for over a year and doesn’t use proprietary ammunition.

Pete Jones

whats this about Saiga 12s not taking low brass shells? I’ve have four of the things and all of them have shot Wal-mart value pack Federals right out of the box every time. I know some have had troubles with them but mine work just fine with the factory gas plugs.

I’ve actually been waiting for a new shotgun cartridge to come out… I got to thinking “there’s always room for improvement”, and shotgun shells haven’t really changed in forever.

John

MMmmm this is going to be either hit or miss, depending on how well the ammo is received… kinda like how the 300blk became a hit…

The Lord General Commissar

So, who’s going to make this into a pistol and call it a bolter?

PGConley

Someone plays Warhammer 40,000…. 😀

Andrew

Wait a sec; how is this new ammo going to pass muster with the BATFE? It has “destructive device” written all over it. If they *REALLY* want it to work, they need to first make a classical shotgun that uses the round and then later offer an AR10 upper that uses it.

Let me be clear, I had the same idea years ago and completely support a new shell even for regular sporting purposes, but gave up because of legalities and low probability of market adoption.

http://www.thefirearmblog.com/ Phil W “Senior Writer TFB”

They research pretty well before designing the ammo. I would think it passes muster with the BATFE

Giolli Joker

I wonder…
With such a beefy straight walled case and a rebated rim, wouldn’t it be worthy to try a simple blowback action?
I mean, chamber about .50″ longer (well, this should be first calculated, then tested) than the case, case going to sit deep in the chamber ready to recoil when the payload starts travelling through the barrel…

What you need is that the barrel time is safely shorter than the time it takes for the thin walls of the case to exit the chamber, but it should be achievable with a limited additional depth of the chamber, considering that the reaction given weight of case+bolt+strenght of recoil spring is much higher than the weight of the payload.

The rebated rim would still make it feasible to have an extractor.

Recoil however might be steep… but maybe with buffers…

(A similar system was (is?) used on a few cannons)

DresNightfire

Not one mention of the VEPR 12 shotgun… Superior to the Saiga 12 in almost every single way…

As a result of the proprietary ammunition, this design will die out. If the Russians can make a Saiga work with standard 12ga ammo, theres no excuse for their inability to do so here. The AA12 feeds from a box with standard 12ga as well, the majority of rifles from WWI and II, fired rimmed cartridges w/o issue. I dont buy there excuse, and this design will fail

Raoul O’Shaugnessy

This is the sort of thing that led to the demise of the CAWS project. Someone needs to just take a .50 BMG, saw it off at the shoulder, straighten it out, and load it as a shotgun shell.

Jacob Kenworthy

I don’t hate the new ammo. I think a rimless shotgun shell is long overdue, and I would give it a chance.

HenryC

It seems that the polymer ammo would be cheaper to manufacture. But what about reloading? That could be an issue. And what about the nose cone? Whats up with that?

I meant “tactical” shotguns in the second line of my last post — Sorry about the typographical error, guys.

Sam Suggs

if it where from a big gun company it could make it but these guys dont even get exsposure at shot show

Andrew B.

What. The. Hell.

I own a fairly new, Russian made, Vepr 12. It feeds from US made, 12 round, box magazines, which load like AR mags. It features a last-round bolt hold-open. It also runs everything from 1oz #7 1/2 shot to 3″ 00 buck like a sewing machine.

…and you guys can’t get a box magazine-fed 12 gauge to work right without proprietary ammunition? BS. Points for trying to create a whole new ammo market to monopolize though. (where’s my “roll eyes” smiley when I need it?

There’s even a turkish gun called the 1919 that looks like an AR and runs 12 gauge from box mags.

You mean to tell me that the Russians and the TURKS can do something, but you can’t do it without needing to build an entire ammunition manufacturing element? You guys truly suck.

If you’re going to design a whole new ammunition and manufacturing for it just for your new weapon, it’d better be HEDP or heat-seeking or your weapon is going to get put on the “Fun but Bankrupt” picture page next to the Dardick and the Gyrojet.

Matt

If I can’t buy 20 shells for 5.50 army local gun store then this thing is nigh useless.

Think about the reasons you would want a gun like this…
1. You want a nagged shotgun for 3gun matches, well that sucks cause having to order ammo online at most likely higher than current cheap ammo price is gonna kill that idea.

2.youwamt a bad ass mag fed quick reloading shotgun so that the zombies don’t get you when the gun runs dry. That’s all well and good but you ain’t gonna find ammo for this thing when scrounging the post apocalyptic wasteland.

3. You want a semi auto 12gauge for home defense use. There are many cheaper options that use already available shotgun shells. If you want one that looks like an AR, Get the akdal mka1919.

I hate to say it but there is almost no niche for this gun.

bgunsorbdumb

I heard they are hiring new engineers already, so either the engineers for this quit or were fired. Don’t know how soon I’ll be spending money with a company whose engineers that designed the product left or were canned right after it was launched. Something’s wrong with that picture. Too bad. Might have been a good product at one point. Doubt it goes anywhere now. Put me in the nonbeliever category.

Lucas

If someone wanted to machine some stuff, a belt-fed shotgun built on the ar-10 platform could be created. Would be cool. Expensive sure but, it would work.

Jeff Edwards

Hey all my name is Jeff and I actually for Intrepid Tactical Solutions. Couple of points to consider, first the RAS system is shipping as is the ammunition. We have a close supplier relationship and possibly more with the folks at Remington and this has allowed to grow quickly. We are shipping systems and would love to have a few of you field test some of our product? email me if you are interested. FYI our ammo utilizes standard ammo components and reloads up to 4 times. We will sell hulls and nosecones so that you can reload your own. Its great to be a new member and I look forward to your future help and feedback

AnarchyPrime

If it is possible to get common shotguns (e.g. Rem 870) to use this new ammo with a simple modification, then they stand a chance of getting it adopted.