We need to make Christian unity our number one priority. The rise of Islam and secularism is not "their (usually in reference to the Western Europe) problem", but ours. It affects our own Ecumenical Patriarch, even. Personally, I cannot pretend that the largest Christian body in the world has little impact on the future of Christendom, and that prayerful dialogue in submission to the will of God would not benefit all Christian souls, and all would-have-been Christian souls.

Maybe we'll finally "get it" in the most drastic of situations--like the Orthodox and Catholic Christians before us did and at the present do--extreme persecution.

Ah well.

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Finally, brethren, whatever things are true, whatever things are noble, whatever things are just, whatever things are pure, whatever things are lovely, whatever things are of good report, if there is any virtue and if there is anything praiseworthy—meditate on these things. ~Philippians 4:8; St Paul

Personally, I cannot pretend that the largest Christian body in the world has little impact on the future of Christendom, and that prayerful dialogue in submission to the will of God would not benefit all Christian souls, and all would-have-been Christian souls.

Are you talking about the Roman Catholic Church? They just joined Interpol because they are a Nation-State, not a theocracy.

To join people to Jesus Christ. I think that it's underestimated how much this issue keeps people out of the Church, causes people to lose faith within the Church, or just influences decisions to leave Her altogether.

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There have been numerous posts on Islam in this board. Islam/secularism is not our problem.

It's affecting our fellow brothers and sisters in Christ. Secularism affects us and the world around us.

The problems of other Christians are our problems. St. Paul's various letters give us accounts of this.

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Islam has affected the EP for almost 1400 years. The Orthodox faith has stood against Islam and will continue to do so.

I agree, of course. I do believe in God, after all. But it's not my point that Islam will overcome the Church (which it won't), but that the brethren can be fortified by true, God-pleasing unity.

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Are you talking about the Roman Catholic Church? They just joined Interpol because they are a Nation-State, not a theocracy.

Not getting your point with this. I don't think you're getting mine.

You seem to be focused on the Vatican State. I'm hinting at the grassroots: The Roman Catholic Church as the largest Christian body in the world, has cultural, social, and theological significance in Christendom at large. For the benefit of all souls involved, it is a good thing that our leaders are in dialogue with them.

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Christians have been "extemely persecuted" for 2,000+ years. Christian Unity in this day and age, Yawn....

I did say the present, and from first- and second-hand accounts, Orthodox-Catholic "grass-root" unity tend to be better executed in the cells and the trenches than where the Faith can be practiced in relative openness and freedom. I know I can walk around doing presumptious things like wearing my baptismal cross and blessing my meals without me being thrown in prison. My prayers are with anyone on this board who cannot say the same thing, believe me. For those who can, sometimes I wonder: under more directly experienced circumstances, what would our opinions, Orthodox and Catholic, be about one another's communion?

That being said, I realize there are exceptions to the degree of the freedom of Christian praxis experienced by everyone, and persecution is a very very much experienced by Christians around the world. As a matter of fact, that leads back to my point: I think that some of the more active people involved in ecumenism in general, from both sides, feel the immediate need for a more unified Christian voice in the world, given today's challenges. Not to mention the model of the gospel it would be, and how many more hearts would be moved closer to Jesus Christ on account of it.

All this is why statements like this from the Pope don't surprise me, nor strike me as proposing some kind of heretical agenda.

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Finally, brethren, whatever things are true, whatever things are noble, whatever things are just, whatever things are pure, whatever things are lovely, whatever things are of good report, if there is any virtue and if there is anything praiseworthy—meditate on these things. ~Philippians 4:8; St Paul

You seem to be focused on the Vatican State. I'm hinting at the grassroots: The Roman Catholic Church as the largest Christian body in the world, has cultural, social, and theological significance in Christendom at large. For the benefit of all souls involved, it is a good thing that our leaders are in dialogue with them.

I suppose we should dialogue with all heterodox up to a point. Seeing as how the Latter Days Saints - Mormons - are the largest 'christian' sect in my region of the world, perhaps our bishops should also be playing footsie... excuse me - entering dialogue - with the Mormon Elders in Salt Lake City. To my knowledge this is not happening... perhaps you could speak with Met. Philip about this missed opportunity.

Before you say apples & oranges - Catholics & Mormons... let me point out that heretical Christians are just that - heretical - no matter the quantity or flavor. Now that I reflect upon it, most of the Mormons I know have a higher standard of morals than most Catholics I know... so perhaps afterall it is apples & oranges.

In any event, I have to agree with SolEX01 - what's the hurry? If the Archbishop of Rome is truly in such a rush, there is nothing stopping him from renouncing the Roman innovations and outright heresy of the last millennium and leading his flock back to the Church. The ball has always been in Rome's court..

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"And having found Heracleides there again, we instructed him to proclaim the Gospel of God..." ~Acts of Barnabas

The rise of Islam and secularism is not "their (usually in reference to the Western Europe) problem", but ours.

There have been numerous posts on Islam in this board. Islam/secularism is not our problem.

You been around? It's everyone's problem. Take for instance Greece: if you don't think secularism is a problem there, nor the rise of Islamism in the North amongst the Muslims, not to mention in that very large country next door and the terrorist quasi state just North, you don't know the situation.

Personally, I cannot pretend that the largest Christian body in the world has little impact on the future of Christendom, and that prayerful dialogue in submission to the will of God would not benefit all Christian souls, and all would-have-been Christian souls.

Are you talking about the Roman Catholic Church? They just joined Interpol because they are a Nation-State, not a theocracy.

Maybe we'll finally "get it" in the most drastic of situations--like the Orthodox and Catholic Christians before us did and at the present do--extreme persecution.

Christians have been "extemely persecuted" for 2,000+ years. Christian Unity in this day and age, Yawn....

Wake up!

Fixed quote tags to make post more readable -PtA

« Last Edit: October 13, 2008, 02:18:20 AM by PeterTheAleut »

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Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.A hasty quarrel kindles fire,and urgent strife sheds blood.If you blow on a spark, it will glow;if you spit on it, it will be put out; and both come out of your mouth

You seem to be focused on the Vatican State. I'm hinting at the grassroots: The Roman Catholic Church as the largest Christian body in the world, has cultural, social, and theological significance in Christendom at large. For the benefit of all souls involved, it is a good thing that our leaders are in dialogue with them.

I suppose we should dialogue with all heterodox up to a point. Seeing as how the Latter Days Saints - Mormons - are the largest 'christian' sect in my region of the world, perhaps our bishops should also be playing footsie... excuse me - entering dialogue - with the Mormon Elders in Salt Lake City. To my knowledge this is not happening... perhaps you could speak with Met. Philip about this missed opportunity.

I didn't know that you were in Deseret. I was just there in August. "Interesting" place: my 11 year old told me "Baba, they use the same words but they don't seem to mean the same thing." Still ROFL on that. Out of the mouths of babes.

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Before you say apples & oranges - Catholics & Mormons... let me point out that heretical Christians are just that - heretical - no matter the quantity or flavor. Now that I reflect upon it, most of the Mormons I know have a higher standard of morals than most Catholics I know... so perhaps afterall it is apples & oranges.

Not quite. Should the Vatican see the error of its ways (and the vernacular liturgy, the back peddling on the defense of the filioque etc...points in that direction), whatever is good can be chrismated and brought back into the Church.

Mormonism has nothing we want nor can accept, no matter how well they live out OUR morality (this family values thing is Christian, not Mormon).

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In any event, I have to agree with SolEX01 - what's the hurry? If the Archbishop of Rome is truly in such a rush, there is nothing stopping him from renouncing the Roman innovations and outright heresy of the last millennium and leading his flock back to the Church. The ball has always been in Rome's court.

I agree, but nothing stopping us from looking at the horizon for the prodigal and running up when we see him.

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Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.A hasty quarrel kindles fire,and urgent strife sheds blood.If you blow on a spark, it will glow;if you spit on it, it will be put out; and both come out of your mouth

You been around? It's everyone's problem. Take for instance Greece: if you don't think secularism is a problem there, nor the rise of Islamism in the North amongst the Muslims, not to mention in that very large country next door and the terrorist quasi state just North, you don't know the situation.

1. Secularism is a problem, EVERYWHERE.2. The Muslims in northern Greece are EU Citizens.3. The very large country next door, even if it reverts back to an Islamic state, is not stupid.4. Talk about that "wannabe" state in Politics; I won't discuss it here.

To join people to Jesus Christ. I think that it's underestimated how much this issue keeps people out of the Church, causes people to lose faith within the Church, or just influences decisions to leave Her altogether.

There is an agenda here which is something that I brought up in Politics forum. If you don't have access, you can PM Fr. Chris.

It's affecting our fellow brothers and sisters in Christ. Secularism affects us and the world around us.

The problems of other Christians are our problems. St. Paul's various letters give us accounts of this.

The problems of those who apostazied to Islam are our problems as well. The ethnic conflicts and divides create a huge gap where God is no longer Love but propaganda and violence. St. Paul certainly didn't teach propaganda or violence.

You seem to be focused on the Vatican State. I'm hinting at the grassroots: The Roman Catholic Church as the largest Christian body in the world, has cultural, social, and theological significance in Christendom at large. For the benefit of all souls involved, it is a good thing that our leaders are in dialogue with them.

The grassroots you propose today is vastly different from the first Christians worshipping in catacombs to avoid Roman persecution.

I did say the present, and from first- and second-hand accounts, Orthodox-Catholic "grass-root" unity tend to be better executed in the cells and the trenches than where the Faith can be practiced in relative openness and freedom. I know I can walk around doing presumptious things like wearing my baptismal cross and blessing my meals without me being thrown in prison. My prayers are with anyone on this board who cannot say the same thing, believe me. For those who can, sometimes I wonder: under more directly experienced circumstances, what would our opinions, Orthodox and Catholic, be about one another's communion?

That being said, I realize there are exceptions to the degree of the freedom of Christian praxis experienced by everyone, and persecution is a very very much experienced by Christians around the world. As a matter of fact, that leads back to my point: I think that some of the more active people involved in ecumenism in general, from both sides, feel the immediate need for a more unified Christian voice in the world, given today's challenges.

Ecumenism is a red flag word depending on its context. Ecumenism and unity are not one in the same.

[I suppose we should dialogue with all heterodox up to a point. Seeing as how the Latter Days Saints - Mormons - are the largest 'christian' sect in my region of the world, perhaps our bishops should also be playing footsie... excuse me - entering dialogue - with the Mormon Elders in Salt Lake City. To my knowledge this is not happening... perhaps you could speak with Met. Philip about this missed opportunity.

I didn't know that you were in Deseret. I was just there in August. "Interesting" place: my 11 year old told me "Baba, they use the same words but they don't seem to mean the same thing." Still ROFL on that. Out of the mouths of babes.

I'm not (although I am from the Southwest). I am presently in Polynesia, where Mormonism is the predominant faith and is by far and away the fastest growing 'christian' sect (and has been for the past 50 years).

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Before you say apples & oranges - Catholics & Mormons... let me point out that heretical Christians are just that - heretical - no matter the quantity or flavor. Now that I reflect upon it, most of the Mormons I know have a higher standard of morals than most Catholics I know... so perhaps afterall it is apples & oranges.

Not quite. Should the Vatican see the error of its ways (and the vernacular liturgy, the back peddling on the defense of the filioque etc...points in that direction), whatever is good can be chrismated and brought back into the Church.

Mormonism has nothing we want nor can accept, no matter how well they live out OUR morality (this family values thing is Christian, not Mormon)..

Nor does Catholicism. Have you attended a Charismatic Catholic Mass lately? Mormonism is simply a heresy spawned by a larger heresy, that being Catholicism.

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In any event, I have to agree with SolEX01 - what's the hurry? If the Archbishop of Rome is truly in such a rush, there is nothing stopping him from renouncing the Roman innovations and outright heresy of the last millennium and leading his flock back to the Church. The ball has always been in Rome's court.

I agree, but nothing stopping us from looking at the horizon for the prodigal and running up when we see him.

Considering the current state of the Catholic church, we're in for a lengthy wait. As SolEX01 previously stated, we pray for unity during every Divine Liturgy.

« Last Edit: October 11, 2008, 02:10:56 PM by Heracleides »

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"And having found Heracleides there again, we instructed him to proclaim the Gospel of God..." ~Acts of Barnabas

There is an agenda here which is something that I brought up in Politics forum. If you don't have access, you can PM Fr. Chris.

I'll take your word for it. I'd really rather not have access.

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The problems of those who apostazied to Islam are our problems as well. The ethnic conflicts and divides create a huge gap where God is no longer Love but propaganda and violence. St. Paul certainly didn't teach propaganda or violence.

I agree with the bolded.

What I meant was St. Paul gave us examples of one church taking up the burdens of another, through material and spiritual means. The phrase "not our problem" came across as apathy to me. I could have read you wrong; it was 3 AM.

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Isn't that the ultimate praxis?

Why yes.

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The grassroots you propose today is vastly different from the first Christians worshipping in catacombs to avoid Roman persecution.

As it should be. This is the 21st century, not the first.

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Ecumenism is a red flag word depending on its context. Ecumenism and unity are not one in the same.

I quite agree. And I think we agree on the wrong context: i.e. the WCC. I think there is more likely to be disagreement on the subtler distinctions, naturally.

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"Communion" - we're not Anglicans.

My vocabulary aside...

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I thought the 700 Club was a unified Christian voice, why need another one?

Ha. You're funny.

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Finally, brethren, whatever things are true, whatever things are noble, whatever things are just, whatever things are pure, whatever things are lovely, whatever things are of good report, if there is any virtue and if there is anything praiseworthy—meditate on these things. ~Philippians 4:8; St Paul

The problems of those who apostazied to Islam are our problems as well. The ethnic conflicts and divides create a huge gap where God is no longer Love but propaganda and violence. St. Paul certainly didn't teach propaganda or violence.

What I meant was St. Paul gave us examples of one church taking up the burdens of another, through material and spiritual means. The phrase "not our problem" came across as apathy to me. I could have read you wrong; it was 3 AM.

If you know the "real" history of Islam and its interaction with Orthodoxy, you may be surprised. For a history lesson, not every Ottoman Administrator was an ethnic Turk but people from other nations who converted to Islam for whatever reasons (mainly to avoid taxes).

This is where things get real challenging, how would Orthodox faithful (both EO and OO) seek unity among Christ's Apostolic churches, if these very same churches have gone off course at a point in the past?

Easy.

"Having gone off course" (whatever that may mean) - of individuals of certain times don't affect Church as a whole - regardless the position those individuals were taking at the time of their errors.

...If God, our Heavenly Father, can run across the fields to lovingly embrace his Prodigals everytime we sin and repent, isn't it only apt and right that the Body of Christ, the visible entity of God's salvation unto mankind, mirror his Love for all as well?

Love without Truth isn't Love at all. Love in Lie is actually Hatred.

BTW, when had Rome repented?

Wow...what an insightful concept....I am sure you're the only one to have thought of that until now.

Look, we all know and have affirmed from time to time here that ecumenism is a beautiful thing ONLY under the intent of bringing the world CLOSER TO Orthodoxy and not the other way around. In that statement, one can clearly see that it is implied that Orthodoxy is the One True, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church...We are called, by Christ at his very command, to hate the sin but love the sinner....this Love in Truth, is what we as Orthodox faithful, must display towards those who have erred and strayed from the Truth...In this context, one can indeed indulge in a truthful, loving dialogue without having to directly result in us compromising our doctrinal and theological tenets. I indulge in this sort of thing every single day with my loved ones...and guess what, they're taking Orthodoxy more seriously than ever before...but in return, I haven't set foot in a Protestant Church nor have I accepted Protestant doctrines. Trust me, there is a way how one can remain waiting with their arms stretched open, waiting for its prodigals to return home, while not being open to attacks.

Irrespective of Rome repenting or not, we must still go ahead and stretch out our hands. If the premise of your thoughts are that a prerequisite of sorts are required for Love to be displayed, then the Incarnation, Crucifixion and the glorious Resurrection wouldn't have happened my friend....The end result of our journey is to become more like God (in theosis). One of the first steps, we can try to become literally that is by displaying God's love towards others...

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An emphasize, since it seems to me you, and many westerners are not seeing it.

Sin is personal. Error is personal. It isn't collective.

As a student of Early Christian history and Second Temple Judaism, I must say that your understanding of sin is dismally poor and rather one-sided. Sin and error is a complicated concept within Christian and early- Jewish soteriology and does indeed include a strong corporate aspect to it as well. To discard the corporate aspect of sin (and even salvation) is to, pretty much discard a huge portion of the Hebrew Scriptures/OT and the NT. I am not saying that there is no personal aspect to sin, it is indeed there. However, the personal aspect of sin is only one side of the story and you have conveniently either forgot or abstained from outlining the numerous instances in our own Bible where corporate sin and salvation is lucidly outlined. For starters, read your Septuagint please....Funny thing, you try to teach these "westerners" about sin when your very description of sin stinks of rotten Western individualism to the core.....

But this thread isn't about the personal and collective aspects of sin, it is about Ecumenicism and how it can indeed be done rightly. It is about how we, as Orthodox can be firm in the faith and full in the Love of Christ at the same time....Again: The Roman Catholic Church, being one of the Apostolic Churches, irrepsective of how much it has erred, does deserve the right to mend, heal and restore relationships with other Apostolic churches. On that very same note, we as Orthodox faithful, must always work towards unity as well, but not (and AGAIN: NOT) at the expense of Orthodox dogma.

...As a student of Early Christian history and Second Temple Judaism, I must say that your understanding of sin is dismally poor and rather one-sided.

As someone who isn't student, I'd like to say you should graduate, to preach to others based from the position of graduated student. Once you gain experience in addition to diploma, you'll realize the difference - the former is prerequisite but the later is required too. BTW, you'll learn that the difficulty in internet fora is that you never know with whom you are debating.

As an Orthodox Christian, I'd like to inform you that, or course, I take the advice, but only from priests and brothers with whom I'm in communion, and you, as Malankara Syrian, aren't among these.

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Curse the Pope, for he is the root and cause of these disasters! - St. Nektarios of Aegina

You don't get to circumvent your post moderation by calling out the moderators in your signature. ~Veniamin, Global Moderator

... I believe ecumenism is a MUST for Christians, as Christ Himself commanded that we spread His gospel to all nations. Is that not what ecumenism is? Spreading of the gospel, the attempt to bring all people into the fold of Christ's church? ...

...As a student of Early Christian history and Second Temple Judaism, I must say that your understanding of sin is dismally poor and rather one-sided.

As someone who isn't student, I'd like to say you should graduate, to preach to others based from the position of graduated student. Once you gain experience in addition to diploma, you'll realize the difference - the former is prerequisite but the later is required too. BTW, you'll learn that the difficulty in internet fora is that you never know with whom you are debating.

As an Orthodox Christian, I'd like to inform you that, or course, I take the advice, but only from priests and brothers with whom I'm in communion, and you, as Malankara Syrian, aren't among these.

I'm always amazed how, when people find themselves in the wrong, they will resort to tactics like this on the forum-- tactics so UNOrthodox that they completely invalidate any good point the person may have had to begin with.

Why don't we dispense with the sour grapes and continue the discussion in a loving Christian manner? This is a perfect example of the "high horse" I was talking about-- judging him unworthy to point out a scholarly error and to speak the truth in love because he doesn't meet YOUR standards of holiness. And my friend, if "priests and brothers with whom I'm in communion" is the way I decided who I listen to, I'd be in serious trouble. As many of the one's I'm in communion with have no idea what they're talking about, and many of the one's I'm NOT in communion with are far holier and closer to God than I (like my Grandma, who was Southern Baptist, may her memory be eternal). That's not to say we shouldn't use discernment in deciding who we listen to, but let's use our minds to decide what information we feel is worth hearing, rather than dismissing someones words out of hand because they're not in communion with us.

As far as your assertions as to what I said in my last post, I thought I was clear, but I guess I didn't express myself as clearly as I thought.

I DO NOT believe in the branch theory, I DO believe the Orthodox Church is the ONE TRUE Church. "Getting off our high horses" DOES NOT mean sacrificing any of our doctrine, dogma, or practice. It DOES NOT mean "faster unity." I have no idea where you got "faster unity" from... how quickly we are reunited is irrelevant as far as I'm concerned. We should be sure to "take our time and do it right," to quote the late, great Mr. Rogers.

What "getting off our high horses" DOES mean is that we should EXERCISE HUMILITY. We have been given a great gift in our Orthodoxy. But being cocky and having an Unchristian attitude- one absent of love and full of pride- will do us no good, and WE will be judged for that.

As far as my unwillingness to say that the Catholic Church is without grace, etc... all I am saying is that I am NOT in a position to be making any judgements about where the Holy Spirit resides. I have no business saying whether they do or do not have grace. I think you were reading that I am leaving the possibility open that they may have grace. I'm not-- I will not make ANY judgements about the state of grace in the Catholic Church. Hope that makes more sense. If it doesn't, I apologize, I'm not that eloquent and have trouble articulating exactly what I think.

Though my tone may sound harsh, I don't mean it that way. It's hard to type what I'm thinking without it reading that way, so please don't think I'm trying to judge or be negative in general. I'm simply trying to speak the truth in love... I felt that the comments toward OrthodoxPilgrim were hurtful and unnecessary. I hope we can move on with the discussion in a productive manner.

OrthodoxPilgrim---I was touched by your comments about Love in Truth and about the Prodigal son. I was especially touched that you said:

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Irrespective of Rome repenting or not, we must still go ahead and stretch out our hands. If the premise of your thoughts are that a prerequisite of sorts are required for Love to be displayed, then the Incarnation, Crucifixion and the glorious Resurrection wouldn't have happened my friend....The end result of our journey is to become more like God (in theosis). One of the first steps, we can try to become literally that is by displaying God's love towards others...

This is exactly what I was feeling. We should be forgiving and not cross our arms and say "you didn't say sorry, so we're not going to talk." We shouldn't "take our ball and go home," as my mom would say, just because they didn't apologize. That is not what Christ would do. We should show LOVE and FORGIVENESS and come to the table anyway.

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Whoever receives one little child like this in My name receives Me.Matthew 18:5

... I believe ecumenism is a MUST for Christians, as Christ Himself commanded that we spread His gospel to all nations. Is that not what ecumenism is? Spreading of the gospel, the attempt to bring all people into the fold of Christ's church? ...

...However, I DO NOT believe that the Catholic Church is altogether without grace, nor do I believe their sacraments to be wholly invalid. ...

The only conclusion I can make is that GreekChef stands for spreading the Gospel among those who have already heard it, whom don't lack grace and have valid sacraments.

Some "evangelism".

Wow, what's with the nasty tone? I have a hard time believing that you would use this same tone if we were having this same conversation face to face at a table at coffee hour after the Divine Liturgy (after receiving Holy Communion) this morning. At least, I hope you wouldn't. Honestly, I wouldn't continue the conversation in that case, out of respect for the sacrament I received. In fact, I'm having a very hard time continuing it now. I dislike having conversations with these overtones. May we dispense with them and continue productively, please?

You'd be surprised... try reading "The Gospel in the Parish," by Fr. Theodore Stylianopoulos (I took his NT class at Holy Cross- we discussed this article at great length). He says that the predicament we Orthodox find ourselves in now is EVANGELIZING (yes, he uses this word) to OUR OWN ORTHODOX FAITHFUL. I am willing to say from experience as an active member of my churches from a little girl, to a student at the seminary (undergrad), to now being a Sunday School teacher and a Presbytera--- it is sad but true that our own Orthodox don't even know the Gospel. So yes, considering that we are forced to evangelize to our own faithful, I would say that ecumenism among NON-Orthodox Christians is also evangelism. I'm sorry if you have a problem with that.

And for the record once again, I do not believe that the Catholic Church's sacraments ARE fully valid, I said that they are not WHOLLY INVALID-- meaning I will not judge them to be invalid. I will not judge them to be valid either.

Why are we discussing at such great length what I believe about the RCC? Why are you analyzing it so much? I know what I believe. Are you analyzing it in such detail because you want to judge me? Because that is what it reads as. Are you analyzing my beliefs for God's glory or for yours? I'm not above some constructive criticism, but I will not open myself up and discuss what I believe so that you can make yourself feel more righteous. Sorry.

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Whoever receives one little child like this in My name receives Me.Matthew 18:5

...This is a perfect example of the "high horse" I was talking about-- judging him unworthy to point out a scholarly error and to speak the truth in love because he doesn't meet YOUR standards of holiness.

Nothing about holiness there. He choses to mandate that "we" "must" something with regard to RCs. I don't know who are those "we", and certainly hold OO closer to us, Orthodox, than RC, but he apparently forgotten that I'm not on his side of the table in negotiations, neither is he on mine. And "we" (us, Orthodox) needn't anything, except keeping the fate.

And, of course, I'm willing to read what's the error of mine - the subject was, to remind you, about error and about the Church, from his prospective, and not from mine.

So, I'm transforming into an ear, GreekSchef, to hear your reasoning, because I haven't seen any until now.

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Curse the Pope, for he is the root and cause of these disasters! - St. Nektarios of Aegina

You don't get to circumvent your post moderation by calling out the moderators in your signature. ~Veniamin, Global Moderator

Why are we discussing at such great length what I believe about the RCC? ...

Well, that's what I'm wondering myself, too. Because I haven't asked you about your beliefs about RCs, Southern Baptists, neither I said I believe they can't be saved or are followers of Satan (God forbid!). It was your choice, but you haven't answered my questions.

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Curse the Pope, for he is the root and cause of these disasters! - St. Nektarios of Aegina

You don't get to circumvent your post moderation by calling out the moderators in your signature. ~Veniamin, Global Moderator

...This is a perfect example of the "high horse" I was talking about-- judging him unworthy to point out a scholarly error and to speak the truth in love because he doesn't meet YOUR standards of holiness.

Nothing about holiness there. He choses to mandate that "we" "must" something with regard to RCs. I don't know who are those "we", and certainly hold OO closer to us, Orthodox, than RC, but he apparently forgotten that I'm not on his side of the table in negotiations, neither is he on mine. And "we" (us, Orthodox) needn't anything, except keeping the fate.

And, of course, I'm willing to read what's the error of mine - the subject was, to remind you, about error and about the Church, from his prospective, and not from mine.

So, I'm transforming into an ear, GreekSchef, to hear your reasoning, because I haven't seen any until now.

How about if we keep the FAITH, rather than fate?

And it's GREEKCHEF, or PRESBYTERA MARI, please. I will make the effort to spell your handle/name correctly, I ask you to do the same.

If you don't hear my reasoning, maybe some hearing aids are needed (although ears hear, they don't see, since you said you "haven't seen" any). Or is it that your heart is hardened?

And Christ is the one who calls us to humility and forgiveness, not OrthodoxPilgrim. So you say you needn't do anything. I'm with him on this. We NEED to show humility and forgiveness. Seems that they are both lacking in this thread.

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Whoever receives one little child like this in My name receives Me.Matthew 18:5

Why are we discussing at such great length what I believe about the RCC? ...

Well, that's what I'm wondering myself, too. Because I haven't asked you about your beliefs about RCs, Southern Baptists, neither I said I believe they can't be saved or are followers of Satan (God forbid!). It was your choice, but you haven't answered my questions.

You haven't asked me? You've only OVERanalyzed what I've stated as MY beliefs and questioned/disagreed/judged (pick a word, all are applicable) them several times.

Explain to me how I haven't answered your questions. How can I better allay your concerns, as they seem to have become the focus of this thread, in conjunction with judging myself and everyone else you see fit?

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Whoever receives one little child like this in My name receives Me.Matthew 18:5

Explain to me how I haven't answered your questions. How can I better allay your concerns, as they seem to have become the focus of this thread, in conjunction with judging myself and everyone else you see fit?

My concern is that you are lecturing others on humility on a thread with completely another subject, and laid down some "must".

And, OF COURSE, I DON'T GIVE A D@$%^&* WHAT A CARDINAL NEED FAST OF SLOW.

He is free to renounce errors and heresies today, and immediatelly become my brother. It's his choice he, and his flock, are separated from us.

Logged

Curse the Pope, for he is the root and cause of these disasters! - St. Nektarios of Aegina

You don't get to circumvent your post moderation by calling out the moderators in your signature. ~Veniamin, Global Moderator

Explain to me how I haven't answered your questions. How can I better allay your concerns, as they seem to have become the focus of this thread, in conjunction with judging myself and everyone else you see fit?

My concern is that you are lecturing others on humility on a thread with completely another subject, and laid down some "must".

And, OF COURSE, I DON'T GIVE A D@$%^&* WHAT A CARDINAL NEED FAST OF SLOW.

He is free to renounce errors and heresies today, and immediatelly become my brother. It's his choice he, and his flock, are separated from us.

Okay, well, I've done my best to say what I think in a loving Christian manner. I have not tried to "lecture" anyone. I even said that my tone may sound opposite of what it in fact is. My purpose in discussing humility was saying that it is required of us by Christ, not anyone else, and that we should all (myself included) exercise it when attempting to bring the churches back into unity. If it sounded like a lecture, then I apologize.

Logged

Whoever receives one little child like this in My name receives Me.Matthew 18:5

...As a student of Early Christian history and Second Temple Judaism, I must say that your understanding of sin is dismally poor and rather one-sided.

As someone who isn't student, I'd like to say you should graduate, to preach to others based from the position of graduated student. Once you gain experience in addition to diploma, you'll realize the difference - the former is prerequisite but the later is required too. BTW, you'll learn that the difficulty in internet fora is that you never know with whom you are debating.

As an Orthodox Christian, I'd like to inform you that, or course, I take the advice, but only from priests and brothers with whom I'm in communion, and you, as Malankara Syrian, aren't among these.

As someone who is a student and busts his rear end in trying to read and study every book written on Church history by Apostolic, Ante-Nicene and Post-Nicene Fathers to make sure that my advice and learning does not lead others to erroneous beliefs, I'd like to say that you should study whatever it is you are going to discuss about first, before you commit serious theological blunders that make you look dim-witted. After studying (or rather, while you study) pray to God and ask him for humility before you give tips to those students (who probably know more than you do or ever willl for that matter) as to what they ought to do with their studies.....

Also, I am not "preaching" to others...I was simply pointing out a mistake to you...you just can't handle being wrong or simply admitting your mistake on what consitutes as "sin".....FYI I never said you were completely in the wrong. You were half-true in that you said that sin is entirely personal when it isn't. For starters, read the story of Genesis and the discussion between Father Abraham and God as to whether or not he would spare Sodom and Gomorroah. Then, read the book of Hosea, about the Story of Hosea and his wife and the parallel of God's love towards his unrepenting Israelite children....then dive right into the bok of Jonah and read how God, sent Jonah, a man who was clearly an anti-Assyrian into Ninevah to preach to the natives...mind you, this was a time when Assyria was breathing down the Israelites and he had every reason to hate them...but read the last 5 verses of the book to get the gist of God's love to even those who have persecuted his own.......this is again, not "preaching"...but advice, you can take it or leave it if you want.

I couldn't care less if you listen to an OO layman/priest...the way it seems in this thread is that you're either incapable or unwilling to listen to any voice of sanity and reason, be it the voice of an EO or an OO.

...This is a perfect example of the "high horse" I was talking about-- judging him unworthy to point out a scholarly error and to speak the truth in love because he doesn't meet YOUR standards of holiness.

Nothing about holiness there. He choses to mandate that "we" "must" something with regard to RCs. I don't know who are those "we", and certainly hold OO closer to us, Orthodox, than RC, but he apparently forgotten that I'm not on his side of the table in negotiations, neither is he on mine. And "we" (us, Orthodox) needn't anything, except keeping the fate.

And, of course, I'm willing to read what's the error of mine - the subject was, to remind you, about error and about the Church, from his prospective, and not from mine.

So, I'm transforming into an ear, GreekSchef, to hear your reasoning, because I haven't seen any until now.

I have tried to be civil in my dealing with you...After seeing how rude you were to Presbytera Mari (remember please, that she is a Father's wife....please show respect to her), I don't feel that form of civilitude is needed towards you anymore. I am going to be real blunt with you and I do apologize if I offend you or anyone else reading this.....

I am sorry, but I know you come from Eastern Europe and after having a run of bad dictators and power hungry leaders, I am sure that you have good reason to get goosebumps or get aggressive or assume the presence of some mandate or order of sorts everytime a person uses the word "must" before a particular activity...but let me assure you that my usage of the word was far from issuing a direct and authoritative command of sorts. I am the worst of God's creatures and have no authority to speak on his behalf, but I only wished that you considered the imperative that OUR LORD has given (and not I) and that is to love our neighbour as ourself....who is our neighbour?...he uses the parable of the Good Samaritan to answer that question. If you know anything about Samaritans in first century Judea, you'd know that the usage of a group of people, considered to be less than human, anti-Jewish half-breeds that stood against everything "orderly, orthodox" Judaism stood for in that day, could have come across as extremely hard to consume for first century Jews...but he used the person of the Samaritan to prove a point.....Love ALL people.....irrepsective of them being Catholic, Protestant, OO, EO, heck he could be the worst of heretics, hellbound to eternal damnation.....this doesn't mean that you must compromise everything you hold to be dear and true (again, just putting it out there in case you didn't get the point earlier....)

And, might I remind you, that if you cannot even take advice from an Oriental Orthodox, you may want to read the Book of Acts when Paul, in his dialogues with the Greek Philosophers quotes a Greek poets such as Epimendes (Acts 17:28..."In him we live and move and have our being"...."we are his offspring" taken from the poet Aratus..) to prove a point to the Greeks. He goes on to quote the ancient Greek poets further on in 1 Corinthian 15:33 and Titus 1:12..So what I am trying to say is, learn from the humility of the great disciplies who were capable to see great kernels of wisdom in the ancient Pagan books...read through Eusebius of Caesarea and his view of early Pagan works and how he saw them as preparatory works for the fullness of Truth in Christ Jesus.....these men are far more (and will remain to be) intelligent than you or I can ever be...and even THEY were humble enough to affirm the presence of truths in non-Christian religions....If they can see the truth in non-Christian religions, what is stopping you in seeing the kernels of truth among Oriental Orthodox laypeople and clergymen whose beliefs are much more closer (and might I add, identical) to the major tenets of Eastern Orthodoxy?...One word: Pride....

Explain to me how I haven't answered your questions. How can I better allay your concerns, as they seem to have become the focus of this thread, in conjunction with judging myself and everyone else you see fit?

My concern is that you are lecturing others on humility on a thread with completely another subject, and laid down some "must".

And, OF COURSE, I DON'T GIVE A D@$%^&* WHAT A CARDINAL NEED FAST OF SLOW.

He is free to renounce errors and heresies today, and immediatelly become my brother. It's his choice he, and his flock, are separated from us.

Okay, well, I've done my best to say what I think in a loving Christian manner. I have not tried to "lecture" anyone. I even said that my tone may sound opposite of what it in fact is. My purpose in discussing humility was saying that it is required of us by Christ, not anyone else, and that we should all (myself included) exercise it when attempting to bring the churches back into unity. If it sounded like a lecture, then I apologize.

Pesbytera=Popadija Mari...With all do respect to you being a priests wife,also you being a former catholic,you seem to want over look the vast differences between us and the catholic church from my understanding of reading your posts..sorry we can't do that..Let his Holiness the Ecumenical Patriarch do what he wants,i and millions of orthodox won't follow him in this till rome gives up all it's heresies...I myself really don't want reunion with them ..let them stay on their side of the fence ,but again its not what i want but what the lord wants that matters and when that happen it will be his will ...and ill wait for it...Hope your not influencing you priest husband in this...also being a priest or priests wife dosen't make one a saint that knows it all....example below...At the serbian church the popadija and the priest didn't do a good job to educate their own daughter ,they let her do what she wanted,and she did ,,,she became pregnant the metropolitan threw them out....He warned them to correct their daughter many many times..they didn't heed the warning...so they had to go...

And, OF COURSE, I DON'T GIVE A D@$%^&* WHAT A CARDINAL NEED FAST OF SLOW.

Is this how all Serbs speak to the wives of Priests or women generally, or is it just you?

...

Only to likewise speaking.

And when exactly did Greek Chef shout and swear at you? Could you point out which post it was?

When she started lecturing humility those who who cautiously pointed that there is no other way to unite with RCs than them to renounce their heresies and errors.

I have never heard a female saying anything of the kind. In fact, not even nuns and hegumanias whom has spoken with me, and gave me valuable spiritual advice and help, ever lectured theology, not to mention to silence voices against false teachings.

And no, RATS in this case does have nothing with women, since there is no female clergy in Orthodox Church.

« Last Edit: October 13, 2008, 03:49:35 AM by orthodoxlurker »

Logged

Curse the Pope, for he is the root and cause of these disasters! - St. Nektarios of Aegina

You don't get to circumvent your post moderation by calling out the moderators in your signature. ~Veniamin, Global Moderator

In fact, not even nuns and hegumanias whom has spoken with me, and gave me valuable spiritual advice and help, ever lectured theology, not to mention to silence voices against false teachings.

You know, you are completely insightless. Greek Chef wasn't silencing you, and you seem completly oblivious to the fact that its you who want to silence anyone who disagree with you because you think you are some sort of "Infallible Champion of Orthodoxy".

Pesbytera=Popadija Mari...With all do respect to you being a priests wife,also you being a former catholic,you seem to want over look the vast differences between us and the catholic church from my understanding of reading your posts..sorry we can't do that..

What in Presbytera's posts makes you think that? The fact that she said that Christ calls us all to humility? Doesn't He?

At the serbian church the popadija and the priest didn't do a good job to educate their own daughter ,they let her do what she wanted,and she did ,,,she became pregnant the metropolitan threw them out....He warned them to correct their daughter many many times..they didn't heed the warning...so they had to go...

I see. Doesn't sound very sensible or Christian to me to blame parents for wayward children. I think your Metropolitan needs some education in the area of family counselling.

« Last Edit: October 13, 2008, 07:17:42 AM by ozgeorge »

Logged

If you're living a happy life as a Christian, you're doing something wrong.

This is where things get real challenging, how would Orthodox faithful (both EO and OO) seek unity among Christ's Apostolic churches, if these very same churches have gone off course at a point in the past?

Easy.

"Having gone off course" (whatever that may mean) - of individuals of certain times don't affect Church as a whole - regardless the position those individuals were taking at the time of their errors.

...If God, our Heavenly Father, can run across the fields to lovingly embrace his Prodigals everytime we sin and repent, isn't it only apt and right that the Body of Christ, the visible entity of God's salvation unto mankind, mirror his Love for all as well?

Love without Truth isn't Love at all. Love in Lie is actually Hatred.

BTW, when had Rome repented?

Wow...what an insightful concept....I am sure you're the only one to have thought of that until now.

Look, we all know and have affirmed from time to time here that ecumenism is a beautiful thing ONLY under the intent of bringing the world CLOSER TO Orthodoxy and not the other way around. In that statement, one can clearly see that it is implied that Orthodoxy is the One True, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church...We are called, by Christ at his very command, to hate the sin but love the sinner....this Love in Truth, is what we as Orthodox faithful, must display towards those who have erred and strayed from the Truth...In this context, one can indeed indulge in a truthful, loving dialogue without having to directly result in us compromising our doctrinal and theological tenets. I indulge in this sort of thing every single day with my loved ones...and guess what, they're taking Orthodoxy more seriously than ever before...but in return, I haven't set foot in a Protestant Church nor have I accepted Protestant doctrines. Trust me, there is a way how one can remain waiting with their arms stretched open, waiting for its prodigals to return home, while not being open to attacks.

Irrespective of Rome repenting or not, we must still go ahead and stretch out our hands. If the premise of your thoughts are that a prerequisite of sorts are required for Love to be displayed, then the Incarnation, Crucifixion and the glorious Resurrection wouldn't have happened my friend....The end result of our journey is to become more like God (in theosis). One of the first steps, we can try to become literally that is by displaying God's love towards others...

Quote

An emphasize, since it seems to me you, and many westerners are not seeing it.

Sin is personal. Error is personal. It isn't collective.

As a student of Early Christian history and Second Temple Judaism, I must say that your understanding of sin is dismally poor and rather one-sided. Sin and error is a complicated concept within Christian and early- Jewish soteriology and does indeed include a strong corporate aspect to it as well. To discard the corporate aspect of sin (and even salvation) is to, pretty much discard a huge portion of the Hebrew Scriptures/OT and the NT. I am not saying that there is no personal aspect to sin, it is indeed there. However, the personal aspect of sin is only one side of the story and you have conveniently either forgot or abstained from outlining the numerous instances in our own Bible where corporate sin and salvation is lucidly outlined. For starters, read your Septuagint please....Funny thing, you try to teach these "westerners" about sin when your very description of sin stinks of rotten Western individualism to the core.....

But this thread isn't about the personal and collective aspects of sin, it is about Ecumenicism and how it can indeed be done rightly. It is about how we, as Orthodox can be firm in the faith and full in the Love of Christ at the same time....Again: The Roman Catholic Church, being one of the Apostolic Churches, irrepsective of how much it has erred, does deserve the right to mend, heal and restore relationships with other Apostolic churches. On that very same note, we as Orthodox faithful, must always work towards unity as well, but not (and AGAIN: NOT) at the expense of Orthodox dogma.

Till All are One....in Christ

+

Post of the Month Nomination.

Logged

If you're living a happy life as a Christian, you're doing something wrong.

And, OF COURSE, I DON'T GIVE A D@$%^&* WHAT A CARDINAL NEED FAST OF SLOW.

Is this how all Serbs speak to the wives of Priests or women generally, or is it just you?

...

Only to likewise speaking.

And when exactly did Greek Chef shout and swear at you? Could you point out which post it was?

When she started lecturing humility those who who cautiously pointed that there is no other way to unite with RCs than them to renounce their heresies and errors.

I have never heard a female saying anything of the kind. In fact, not even nuns and hegumanias whom has spoken with me, and gave me valuable spiritual advice and help, ever lectured theology, not to mention to silence voices against false teachings.

And no, RATS in this case does have nothing with women, since there is no female clergy in Orthodox Church.

We do have deaconesses, and the Vatican doesn't approve of women priests. Btw, our beloved Khouriy April Wyper just fell asleep in the Lord, ending decades of intense pain (Krone's disease, etc.). Our present priest Fr. Patrick Reardon had known her back in her Episcopalian days: she had applied to the seminary to become a priestess, and he was on the board to approve candidates (she was the only female, and the only one he approved as the men all had fuzzy ideas about what the priesthood was about. This while opposing female priests). In seminary she came to reject female priests and the rest of Episcopalianism, and didn't even wait for her husband's congregation (a former Bible Study at Wheaton College) to convert.

I have to say, that it has been my experience that when monks have written on family life, they are way off, with few exceptions. Every thing I have ever read or heard from a nun on the subject has been dead on.

I have to say, I don't see how GreekChef has offended you so.

Logged

Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.A hasty quarrel kindles fire,and urgent strife sheds blood.If you blow on a spark, it will glow;if you spit on it, it will be put out; and both come out of your mouth

This is where things get real challenging, how would Orthodox faithful (both EO and OO) seek unity among Christ's Apostolic churches, if these very same churches have gone off course at a point in the past?

Easy.

"Having gone off course" (whatever that may mean) - of individuals of certain times don't affect Church as a whole - regardless the position those individuals were taking at the time of their errors.

...If God, our Heavenly Father, can run across the fields to lovingly embrace his Prodigals everytime we sin and repent, isn't it only apt and right that the Body of Christ, the visible entity of God's salvation unto mankind, mirror his Love for all as well?

Love without Truth isn't Love at all. Love in Lie is actually Hatred.

BTW, when had Rome repented?

Wow...what an insightful concept....I am sure you're the only one to have thought of that until now.

Look, we all know and have affirmed from time to time here that ecumenism is a beautiful thing ONLY under the intent of bringing the world CLOSER TO Orthodoxy and not the other way around. In that statement, one can clearly see that it is implied that Orthodoxy is the One True, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church...We are called, by Christ at his very command, to hate the sin but love the sinner....this Love in Truth, is what we as Orthodox faithful, must display towards those who have erred and strayed from the Truth...In this context, one can indeed indulge in a truthful, loving dialogue without having to directly result in us compromising our doctrinal and theological tenets. I indulge in this sort of thing every single day with my loved ones...and guess what, they're taking Orthodoxy more seriously than ever before...but in return, I haven't set foot in a Protestant Church nor have I accepted Protestant doctrines. Trust me, there is a way how one can remain waiting with their arms stretched open, waiting for its prodigals to return home, while not being open to attacks.

Irrespective of Rome repenting or not, we must still go ahead and stretch out our hands. If the premise of your thoughts are that a prerequisite of sorts are required for Love to be displayed, then the Incarnation, Crucifixion and the glorious Resurrection wouldn't have happened my friend....The end result of our journey is to become more like God (in theosis). One of the first steps, we can try to become literally that is by displaying God's love towards others...

Quote

An emphasize, since it seems to me you, and many westerners are not seeing it.

Sin is personal. Error is personal. It isn't collective.

As a student of Early Christian history and Second Temple Judaism, I must say that your understanding of sin is dismally poor and rather one-sided. Sin and error is a complicated concept within Christian and early- Jewish soteriology and does indeed include a strong corporate aspect to it as well. To discard the corporate aspect of sin (and even salvation) is to, pretty much discard a huge portion of the Hebrew Scriptures/OT and the NT. I am not saying that there is no personal aspect to sin, it is indeed there. However, the personal aspect of sin is only one side of the story and you have conveniently either forgot or abstained from outlining the numerous instances in our own Bible where corporate sin and salvation is lucidly outlined. For starters, read your Septuagint please....Funny thing, you try to teach these "westerners" about sin when your very description of sin stinks of rotten Western individualism to the core.....

But this thread isn't about the personal and collective aspects of sin, it is about Ecumenicism and how it can indeed be done rightly. It is about how we, as Orthodox can be firm in the faith and full in the Love of Christ at the same time....Again: The Roman Catholic Church, being one of the Apostolic Churches, irrepsective of how much it has erred, does deserve the right to mend, heal and restore relationships with other Apostolic churches. On that very same note, we as Orthodox faithful, must always work towards unity as well, but not (and AGAIN: NOT) at the expense of Orthodox dogma.

Till All are One....in Christ

+

Post of the Month Nomination.

I'll second that for our Malankara brother.

Logged

Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.A hasty quarrel kindles fire,and urgent strife sheds blood.If you blow on a spark, it will glow;if you spit on it, it will be put out; and both come out of your mouth

I don't even know how to begin to respond to this. It is completely beyond me...

I have repeatedly tried to answer the questions asked of me, and I have repeatedly stated that I DO NOT BELIEVE THE ORTHODOX CHURCH SHOULD OVERLOOK THE DOCTRINAL, DOGMATIC, LITURGICAL, ETC. DIFFERENCES BETWEEN HER AND THE CATHOLIC CHURCH! UNITY, TO ME, MEANS THAT THE CATHOLIC CHURCH COMES INTO THE ORTHODOX CHURCH WHEN THOSE DIFFERENCES HAVE BEEN OVERCOME, NOT OVERLOOKED. I REFUSE TO MAKE JUDGEMENTS ABOUT THE STATE OF GRACE OF THE CATHOLIC CHURCH AS IT IS NOW. WHAT IS THE PROBLEM WITH THAT?

I'm not sure how much clearer I can be. Furthermore, I have repeatedly stated that I was not lecturing anyone on humility, simply stating that, whether we Orthodox are "right" or not (which, yes, I believe we are), I believe that Christ has called us to humility, love, and forgiveness.

And what, Orthodoxlurker, does my being a woman and a Presbytera have to do with anything?

Now, I have repeatedly asked for discussion in Christian love, to dispense with the harsh tones and move forward, and have repeatedly been ignored and attacked.

I'd like to third the nominee for PoM!

Does anyone even remember what this thread was about and where it was going before we were so RUDELY hijacked by Orthodoxlurker?

« Last Edit: October 13, 2008, 10:21:50 AM by GreekChef »

Logged

Whoever receives one little child like this in My name receives Me.Matthew 18:5

And, OF COURSE, I DON'T GIVE A D@$%^&* WHAT A CARDINAL NEED FAST OF SLOW.

Is this how all Serbs speak to the wives of Priests or women generally, or is it just you?

...

Only to likewise speaking.

And when exactly did Greek Chef shout and swear at you? Could you point out which post it was?

When she started lecturing humility those who who cautiously pointed that there is no other way to unite with RCs than them to renounce their heresies and errors.

I have never heard a female saying anything of the kind. In fact, not even nuns and hegumanias whom has spoken with me, and gave me valuable spiritual advice and help, ever lectured theology, not to mention to silence voices against false teachings.

And no, RATS in this case does have nothing with women, since there is no female clergy in Orthodox Church.

Are you implying that clergy are rats? Or women are rats? I'm confused. Go ahead, hurl your insults. Let us know how you really feel.

Logged

Whoever receives one little child like this in My name receives Me.Matthew 18:5