The text reads: "You won't be able to stop them (i.e. guys), but you can protect yourself. He who created you knows what's best for you!"

Oh, where do I begin? Should I start with the "Men are flies" example, the MEN who made this employed, describing themselves? Or with the complete disregard to personal responsibility of men when it comes to sexually harassing females theme of the ad? Or Is it with the paternal tone that god, who created you naked, really really wants you covered for your protection from his other perfect creation? Or should I not even bother, given that there is a joke there about lollipops and licking that I am simply not man enough to make on this blog?

Yeah. maybe I just won't bother. I am tired of fighting with Hijabis. If they don't find this offensive, then maybe they do deserve whatever comes their way. What's the point of yelling at men that women are not pieces of meat to be coverd, when the Hijabis hold that same exact view of themselves? I mean, sure I am offended by the idea that they are portraying men as uncontrollable animals, but if the women who wear the Hijab and are in the majority are ok with it, why should we even care if they get sexually harassed or assaulted by those same men?

There used to be a point in fighting over this. I am just not sure those women are worth fighting for anymore!

0 comment on Boys are flies, girls are lollipops

Gard

June 30, 2008 at 4:56 pm

The Hijabi’s view of the world is one of the most narrow-minded ones out there. I know I that looks are way down there on the scale at which I am attracted to someone. Somebody could qualify as centerfold material for playboy, but if they are a dumb as a brick or a complete witch, I wouldn’t give em the time of day. Looks are only a tiny part of the equation, something Hijabis will never understand.

Gard

June 30, 2008 at 5:01 pm

I failed to mention to that guys that ARE looking at a woman aren’t looking at their head, they are looking a bit lower than that, clothed or not. If they like what they see, they won’t care what you head looks like uncovered. They will just turn out the lights or put a paper bag over your head if your that bad facially!

Red-Alert

June 30, 2008 at 5:22 pm

I swear if it werent for the politcal sensitivities & the frequent generalizing of Muslims, Zionist Jews etc. on this blog, I would swear this blog was for kids in their pre-teens. Especially after a comment like the one above, Fuck the base & forget the face. Reminds me of the early 80’s huh?

I thought the ‘women as pearls/*insert material object that strikes your fancy*’ argument was ridiculous but this definitely takes the cake. Two points:

1. Religious consumerism is super creepy. I don’t know when ‘selling’ a religion through ads crossed over from what it actually is (i.e. a sign of the failure of the religious establishment to cater to the people directly and through more intelligent means than using candy as symbolism) to becoming socially acceptable. I’m also not entirely sure why there is a need to ‘sell’ hijab to a country where a good 90% of the female population is veiled anyway, but I’m guessing it was a slow day at the advertising office.

2. Regardless of the is it fard?/do we like it? debate, it is telling – and not surprising – that conversations about hijab in the Middle East are couched in victim terminology. Either women (the victims) must ‘protect’ themselves against ‘evil’ men who want to rape them, or ‘evil’ women must cover themselves to protect the horny (victim) psyche of men. Nowhere in the debate is veiling discussed – by its adversaries OR its proponents – in the context of say, body image (and its best friend, eating disorders). God forbid veiling take on a positive (and *gasp* feminist) undertone.

On a more personal note: it shouldn’t matter that I am veiled, but I am. And I fight my own fights, Sandmonkey. Which I guess makes me lucky since I am no longer ‘worth’ your time.

Craig

June 30, 2008 at 8:14 pm

Why doesn’t anyone mention that the hijab itself has become sexualized? I guess it’s the old “forbidden fruit” syndrome. I’m sure Sandmonkey could explain how popular hijabi porn has become the last few years. I doubt it’s westerners who are watching it, and I know for sure it isn’t westerners filming unless they happen to be mexicans who live in the middle east and speak arabic…

Mohamed

Nadine

June 30, 2008 at 8:43 pm

This is right up there with that get veiled music video which infuriated me to no end. Oh, and guess what? I used to be veiled. I’m not going into the reasons behind me taking it off but your gross over-generalizations about hijabis is very offensive. Bad, Sandmonkey!

“oh yea right, what a great argument for women to strip, because god created you naked!”-
Wow, talk about completely missing his point. He does not argue for women to “strip”, unless you call not covering your hair stripping, which would be a whooole different tirade on my part. He argues that man was created naked and thus he does not understand the need for COMPLETELY and sometimes OBSESSIVELY covering up. And when I say obsessively I am referring to niqabis who go so far as to cover their eyes and hands.

K

June 30, 2008 at 9:01 pm

Well, the fact that you do not like women who are wearing the hijab is obvious. But, you don’t have to insult them!! I’m a veiled woman and I liked the ad. I didn’t see it as offensive at all. I saw it as a creative way of enticing women to wear the hijab. It’s not protecting them from men — only arrogant men would think it was about them. The hijab is protecting women from many evils of the world, including any evil thoughts they themselves may have! If I’m wearing the hijab, I’m more likely to follow God’s word because if I try to do something against God’s teaching (like stealing, or lying, etc.) the hijab would remind me of the committment I made to God. Notice here the operative word “may” because unfortunately not all veiled women or men who pray and fast are true to their word. Nonetheless, this does not give you the right to generalize about people who are wearing the hijab nor does it give you the right to offend them, cirticize their taste, or belittle their decisions and beliefs. Shame on you!!!

CarpetCaptain

June 30, 2008 at 9:27 pm

The Ad. is both degrading to men and women. I’m not sure that portraying a woman as a piece of candy can be viewed as anything but demeaning to most sane women. Obviously this is consistant with the common fundi view of women as nothing more than a maid during the day and a whore at night.

Sexual harassment of women is more prevalent in Egypt than any other part of the world except maybe a maximum security prison, yet there are more hijabs there than anywhere else. The only correlation i see between the mind blocker and sexual harassment is that in its presence men actually do behave like flies.

DC Gamer

June 30, 2008 at 9:55 pm

I live in Washington, DC, and I am not a Muslim, so I am an outsider to this argument. However, last week I saw something that really pissed me off. Between the heat and humidity, the heat index here was 105 (40.6 celcius). As I was walking home (and sweating my ass off) I noticed a Muslim family across the street. The woman was clad head to toe in a long black robe. Her face and eyes were covered, and she wore gloves. The husband and son, however, wore shorts, a t-shirt, and flip-flops. I was so angry that I wanted to kick the man’s ass. How could he walk around in relative comfort while his wife wore that medieval rag?

I am with Sandmonkey on this one. God created us all naked. Why should a woman cover herself fully but not a man? How can anyone believe that funeral shroud makes them holy? Can a whore not wear it? What about a virtuous woman who wears a mini skirt and tank top? It is not what we wear but how we act and think that makes us holy.

Lowfields

“..if I try to do something against God’s teaching (like stealing, or lying, etc.) the hijab would remind me of the committment I made to God.”

Wow. I’ve read some depressing garbage in my time…..

Let’s take, at random, some evils currently being played out in our part of the world: War….. genocide… occupation…. colonisation…. murder…. terrorism….

Is it really your belief that a) a piece of cloth has protected the covered women of Palestine, Iraq and South Lebanon from those atrocities, or b) that in your medieval world, a man looking at a women seductively is actually greater evil than war…?

As for the second point, I am truly – genuinely and heart-breakingly – sorry for you if you need a piece of headgear (or even a belief in a supernatural Stalin) to remind you that it’s wrong to steal.

Neither point says much for either your religion or your understanding of the society in which you practice it….

I can indeed see the argument from both sides of the spectrum. However the debate here has become purely secular and not a theological debate. Basically because religious people whether Arab, Christian or Jew who know even 25% of their religion would not take the secular stance. Unless they were ridiculed as belonging to a theological nut case race growing up as a kid, their Mormon, Hebrew or Muslim name being ridiculed in the process, if I were I guess I probably would have gotten over it.
In any case we should all be extremely proud of our heritage regardless of what anyone says. Muslim Hijabi’s included, as a matter of fact them more than anyone else becuase from the theological stand point, through out history, veiled is how chaste women dressed. That is how the virgin Mary is depicted in all portraits from that era. God fearing Jewish woman back in the day took home the trophy. Pious Christian woman dressed like the Hijabi’s of Modern day Kurds, in loose garb. Salah el Din was a Kurd btw.

Meanwhile the female Pagans of Arabia who were not even introduced to Islam yet were a sight for sore eyes, skimply dressed, were the only ethnicity that hadnt covered up yet. The Pagans of Arabia used to circumvent the Kaaba butt naked in fact because of their ignorance they thought that since this was the way that they were born, being free of sin, that this must be the best way to go about their idol worship.

It wasn’t until the advent of Islam that these butt naked females literally covered their asses up during worship and ironically Muslims now are by far the most conservative group of individuals on the face of this earth and the ones who have kept the biblical spirit of female chastity alive by dressing like the pious woman of a time long forgotten.

I don’t think it is fair to generalize any part of any religion just because the nation that harbors the so called controversy maybe a tad retarded at times.

Think of mother Mary and the woman in the Bible next time you wanna point fingers at woman who are able to cover up wearing full cover in the middle of summer. Do not ridicule them, just as you wouldn’t appreciate that happening to you.

Everything has it pro’s and con’s, it is one thing for the other. Everyone to their own,

In the Biblical days of old, when the mother of Jesus, the virgin Mary roamed the earth, it was common place that chaste women of that ere wore hijabi garb.

Before then, Chaste Jewish woman did the same thing.

It was the Pagans of Arabia who used to circumvent the Kaaba totally but naked out of ignorance thinking that since they were born naked in a state free from all sin then this was the best way to go about it.

It wasn’t until the advent of Islam that these pagans covered up and have been covered up ever since. So basically my hats off to them. They kept the spirit of the biblical days alive.

WTF-KINDA-SPAMFILTER-U-GOT-RUN'N-HERE-LOL

In the Biblical days of old, when the mother of Jesus, the virgin Mary roamed the earth, it was common place that chaste women of that ere wore hijabi garb.

Before then, Chaste Jewish woman did the same thing.

It was the Pagans of Arabia who used to circumvent the Kaaba totally but naked out of ignorance thinking that since they were born naked in a state free from all sin then this was the best way to go about it.

It wasn’t until the advent of Islam that these pagans covered up and have been covered up ever since. So basically my hats off to them. They kept the spirit of the biblical days alive.

Lowfields

July 1, 2008 at 11:59 am

“We are all one whether Christian, Jew or Muslim…”

And if you’re none of the above…?

What if you refuse to allow a different collection of nonsense fairy tales define you…?

Despite what idiotic books – written by ignorant fantasists centuries ago – may lead you to “believe”, human civilisation dates a little further back than the petty tribal squabbles of the Torah, the silliness and inconsistencies of the Bible and the simple plagarism of the Koran.

What some Jewish woman in one dusty corner of or planet did 2,000 years ago is hardly a benchmark for behaviour on a planet billions of years old.

Can everyone grow up and start reading other books for a change? You never know, you might just learn something.

WTF-KINDA-SPAMFILTER-U-GOT-RUN'N-HERE-LOL

July 1, 2008 at 3:07 pm

Lowfields I can relate to your intolerance because when you see the whole lot of the above Jews, Christians & Muslims alike each claiming that their view is superior to the others and shrugging off facts as fallacies, we all tend to judge. But don’t let such people lead you to your conclusions.

What I strongly do disagree with you on is how you said

“Despite what idiotic books – written by ignorant fantasists centuries ago – may lead you to “believe”, human civilisation dates a little further back than the petty tribal squabbles of the Torah, the silliness and inconsistencies of the Bible and the simple plagarism of the Koran. ”

I mean are you really that Gullible. The Torah is the word of God and so is the Bible & the Quran. Never mind cause the beliefs held by the followers of all three of these religions are incongruent to your belief system,you think that gives you the right to write them all off.

I was gonna reply to …but you spared me…

Nice come back at Kaliks comment 25 btw. You see you do have a head, so why bump heads with a bunch of theological fanatics, you know how stubborn they could be right: 0

I know! I’ll mock your rather pathetic reply! Here’s part one, or, Why Assumption is the Mother of All Fuck-Ups.

Point one is quite simple – I’m not a Christian. Not very bothered by Christian canon or religious doctrine. You assumed, erroneously, that you’re going to score one of those Atheist Intellect Points you seem to be so keen on collecting. Well, how shall I put this…

… you’re an idiot. So utterly arrogant in your idiocy that you can’t see your own flaws… like focusing so much energy in proving how much religious people are inferior to your supreme IQ that you don’t actually bother to read what you reply to any more… or consider the context. But oh well, no matter. You did prove one thing.

Your ego is far superior to ours. Good show.

Now, allow me, a lowly religious Jew, deluded by years of brainwashing, delusions, and fanatical lies (do note the sarcasm, please – I realize that it ruins it a little that I have to say I’m using it, but in your case… too likely to take it as people accepting your self-perceived superiority, and we can’t have that, can we?), to explain just why I wrote my reply, and to elaborate on a little issue.

Firstly, and I realize your superior intellect doesn’t much bother with actually reading what you laugh of, in the Christian Bible Mary is married, to one Joseph of Nazareth in fact. Now, Mary was born and raised in a religious Jewish society – and in a religious Jewish society, married women wore some form of head covering – headscarf, most likely. This would have been obvious to anyone who was remotely familiar with the Jewish religion… but wait, I said that R Word without a swearword – I *must* be a deluded or evil fool! Woe is me!

But where was I? Ah, yes. Judaism. Now moving on to Christianity and the usage of the head-scarf for women – worn by nuns of various denominations, mostly after having passed the initiations and started wearing the garb.

In short, I was stating facts. Those little things Mr. WTF (his own personal choice for a name, I must note – makes it so much easier for me) neglected to check.

Lowfields I can relate to your intolerance because when you see the whole lot of the above Jews, Christians & Muslims alike each claiming that their view is superior to the others and shrugging off facts as fallacies, we all tend to judge. But don’t let such people lead you to your conclusions.

…

Nice come back at Kaliks comment 25 btw. You see you do have a head, so why bump heads with a bunch of theological fanatics, you know how stubborn they could be right: 0

Lovely. Now I’m a *fanatic* for mentioning actual facts about Judaism and Christianity. Oh dear. You know, I honestly do believe that Judaism, Christianity and Islam share common basic teachings, but… thing is… I don’t need to twist my facts to support that claim. You, unfortunately, do.

I never did think I’d see so much evidence in support for Freud’s mental projection theory in one place. Do keep it up, both of you. The amusement value alone is worth it.

2. Nowhere in the debate is veiling discussed – by its adversaries OR its proponents – in the context of say, body image (and its best friend, eating disorders). God forbid veiling take on a positive (and *gasp* feminist) undertone.

On a more personal note: it shouldn’t matter that I am veiled, but I am. And I fight my own fights, Sandmonkey. Which I guess makes me lucky since I am no longer ‘worth’ your time.

Judaism has an answer for this, and it is called the tzniut laws. See this:

I understand the concern about being defined by your sexuality. However, veiled women apparently believe they do not even have a right to be seen at all. They believe they should be anonymous in order to avoid being defined by their sexuality. This ‘cure’ for the ill of the sexualization of society is worse than the ailment itself. Women wearing niqabs, chadors, and burqas have lost all sense of self in the effort to avoid being defined by their sexuality.

How is this ‘feminist’? How is this ‘pro-woman’s rights’?

If a woman decides she has no right to individuality, they simply are not a feminist. It takes a mental gymnastics on a level that frankly is sickening to claim otherwise.

Craig

In the Biblical days of old, when the mother of Jesus, the virgin Mary roamed the earth, it was common place that chaste women of that ere wore hijabi garb.

Before then, Chaste Jewish woman did the same thing.

You do realize that the Virgin Mary WAS a chaste Jewish woman, right? lol. I’m a bit baffled by your criticisms of other people for not having read enough scripture, when you seem to think that Christianity was an existing religion during the time of Jesus…

By the way, the women of many northern European tribes covered their hair long before they became Christians. I don’t think there is much validity to the assumptions you make. In most cases, there were factors other than religion in play to explain the way people dressed. Men in the middle east also “covered” their hair in the distant past. In a lot of places, they still do.

While I can respect a woman’s choice to put whatever the hell she wants on her head, the assumption is always that she (and men who approve of her covering up) must then view non-covered women as having lesser values etc. It no longer becomes a difference of outward appearance and instantly provokes a sense of mutual distrust or disrespect. The hijabi woman may not even be actively projecting this, but indirectly, that’s what’s being said: I am chaste and/or modest, you are not.

Having said that, I’ve had VERY good hijabi friends in high school who never made me feel like a filthy Jezabel because they did have enormously expansive views and never continued to question my choice to not cover up beyond one conversation.

What makes this a complex topic to discuss is the fact that treating men like ignorant savages and women like the evil seductresses or even as the cause of their own sexual harrassment pervades SO many cultures across the world it goes beyond this one poster or this one part of the world or this one religion. So you’ve got creeps in the Middle East saying the 9 year old in the summer dress was to blame for being raped because her dress was a little see-through, but then in the West you’ve got women who still blame themselves when they get harrassed or raped… Did I dress too suggestively, was I stupid to take that way home, was that smile too inviting…?

You get brainwashed with all the Old Testement perspectives of women that even well educated, worldly wise women start to question themselves. I’ve done it, more than once.

Violence against women appears to be the sexiest thing this world has ever seen, you need look no further than what I call the “Naked Woman in the Dumpster” syndrome suffered by just about every single crime show there is on TV. If we’re going to teach women to keep themselves safe, with or without hijabs, we’re also going to have to look at WHY the guys are doing it beyond simply saying “it’s a guy thing”. How patronizing is that? You can’t deny male biology, but you can give a little credit that they’re capable of keeping Mr. Winky locked away if he so chooses.

Eva, Canada

July 2, 2008 at 5:18 am

# 27 said: I mean are you really that Gullible. The Torah is the word of God and so is the Bible & the Quran. Never mind cause the beliefs held by the followers of all three of these religions are incongruent to your belief system,you think that gives you the right to write them all off.—

You call people who do not believe in the holy scriptures gullible? How then do you describe yourself? By the way, I prefer to put my faith into Greek gods (they were more fun and their stories are just as true as Moses’s parting of the sea) and I expect you to respect my beliefs.

Lowfields

July 2, 2008 at 6:21 am

WTF:

“I mean are you really that Gullible. The Torah is the word of God…”

Well, I doubt that it is… which means I am a sceptic, not gullible. You, however, accept an extremely unlikely proposition as true simply because you have ben told repeatedly it is true. That might not make you gullible, just bainwashed.

And if the Torah is the word of God, how come he knows so little about what he created….?

Roman:

Sorry, I got bored after a sentence and a half…. was there a point in there somewhere?

bob

July 2, 2008 at 7:46 am

Athiests.
Fucking theists in the ass using dildos made of reason and logic since 1800.
Just kidding. Hahahahaha
But seriously this is quickly turning into the classic God vs. Logic debacle.
So can you guys please pick up your gear and head to the nearest internet forum or the closest youtube video to continue your endless discussion.
Maybe in the process you can settle on who has a larger e-Penis.

this post is offensive to all women. while i object to the ad itself on various grounds, saying that anyone DESERVES to be assaulted just because she believes in dressing modestly is equally repugnant. why do you think MUHAJABAT, NOT hijabis, feel that being veiled is a protective measure against the increasing tide of sexual harassment sweeping this country? it’s because it does, in some measure, attract less attention. of course being unveiled attracts more attention only because of its comparative rarity, but the fact is it’s a vicious cycle brought about by men. if MEN didn’t place so ridiculously high a value on being veiled, young women wouldn’t do it except if they were truly devout. if you want to generalize about “deserving” violence, then it’s men who should deserve it. who else has caused this obsession with female modesty from time immemorial? many civilizations across history have had modest women, it is only comparatively rarely that women in the middle east, particularly, have started to wear western clothing. who brought those centuries about? men and their desire to control female sexuality through fear and ownership.

Lowfields

July 2, 2008 at 9:30 am

Roman,

Throw me a bone, will ya.

If my superiority is “perceived”, if I’m gullible, if I’m arrogant for not considering for one second that our planet is the work of a supreme creator – let alone the vengeful simpleton with less knowledge than a Physics undergrad as portrayed in the current version of monotheism – then show me something a bit more meaningful than dismissive sarcasm.

What have you got…? What evidence have you got up your sleeve….? What silver bullet of knowledge would hit my reliance on logic and reason between the eyes….?

Lowfields

July 2, 2008 at 9:39 am

Okay Roman, throw me a bone…

If I’m arrogant, gullible or superior for not considering the possibility that the planet was the work of a supreme creator – and especially not the vengeful sectarian with less knowledge than a physics undergrad currently in vogue in monotheistic circles – then give me something I can chew on. Give me food for thought, give me a slice of your insight that might puncture my logic…?

What have you got that might possibly make me see the light…? Is it more substantial than dismissive saracasm…?

Regarding the ad — I do find somewhat degrading that men are flies – then again, not all of them.
And that women are candy (although you can’t find many negative connotations to candy; but i still find the comparison a little dumb).
Then again — it’s a bloody picture ad! They have to oversimplify!

I strongly believe that absolving men from all responsibility is completely ridiculous (and again slightly insulting because I don’t consider myself to be insane and unaccountable for my actions).

Beyond this, all the superexcited individuals out there spreading their anti-hijab vitriol are seriously misplaced. Attempting to impose your opinion, your view of what’s right and what’s wrong is either too full of themselves or just plain-and-stupid neocolonialist.

Sandmonkey – as for you not being sure that “those women are worth fighting for anymore” — I don’t recall you being summoned to defend the poor poor mindless hijabis, have you?
Snap out of the patronising mood. Your opinions are just as valid – or otherwise – as anyone else’s.

JT

July 2, 2008 at 3:27 pm

I live in Washington, DC, and I am not a Muslim, so I am an outsider to this argument. However, last week I saw something that really pissed me off. Between the heat and humidity, the heat index here was 105 (40.6 Celsius). As I was walking home (and sweating my ass off) I noticed a Muslim family across the street. The woman was clad head to toe in a long black robe. Her face and eyes were covered, and she wore gloves. The husband and son, however, wore shorts, a t-shirt, and flip-flops. I was so angry that I wanted to kick the man’s ass. How could he walk around in relative comfort while his wife wore that medieval rag?

I understand what you mean and have seen many Muslim women here where I live, completely covered from head to toe under scorching heat. But what disturbs me more is to see Muslim women in the West who have tasted freedom and then choosing to go back under the tent, while their fellow Muslims in countries like Afghanistan and Iraq are dreaming of the day when they can walk out in public by themselves and not have to wear any kind of covering. A US service woman in Afghanistan heard one Afghan man say to a Muslim woman: I will pull your pants down and rape you on the street if you uncover your hair in the office again. Then we have “enlightened” and educated Muslims like Nora who chooses to don the burkha to show her “modesty.” It’s a mad, mad world.

WTF-KINDA-SPAMFILTER-U-GOT-RUN'N-HERE-LOL

July 2, 2008 at 4:16 pm

JT you got it all wrong. Obviously although a law of the land in afghanistan and what not, it boils down to choice, that’s why they choose to go back under the tent as you put it. But there will always be no shortage of critics of Islam, ready to spit on it and say they chose to do so under threats from male family members add infinitum.

JT

July 2, 2008 at 5:36 pm

JT you got it all wrong. Obviously although a law of the land in afghanistan and what not, it boils down to choice, that’s why they choose to go back under the tent as you put it. But there will always be no shortage of critics of Islam, ready to spit on it and say they chose to do so under threats from male family members add infinitum.

Suzanne…got a ph no lol?

What I quoted came directly from a service member of the US armed forces; a woman, no less. She talks to these veiled women and she says Afghan women would take the burkha off if they know they won’t get punished for it, so for them, donning the burkha is not a choice, but a requirement out of fear. A teenage girl in Canada was killed by her own brother for not wearing the burkha. There are numerous such examples.

Olive Picker

JT, that’s the problem. The whole rationale behind the ad is that any woman who does not condone one region’s dress codes is automatically a slut and deserves all that is coming to her.

I would never, ever say that even the most depraved whore would deserve to be treated like an object. As Terry Pratchett has put it, sin is treating people like things. I would include treating one’s own self as a object in that definition.

anonymous

July 2, 2008 at 8:53 pm

This comment is directed soley 2 Sandmonkey

I have 2 say…isn’t the basis of your belief system primarily that people be FREE to choose how to live…yourself included…isn’t that the reason u c the West as a good example of how societies should be run?

So if this is the case, then why do u not feel that women have the right 2 cover…in the West, we have the freedom to go topless or be covered with niqab (although that has it’s own logistic issues). The key is the freedom..the right 2 dress as one chooses.

If u think it’s oppressive, that’s ur opinion…but in terms of being a champion for those that are covering…i’m not sure what that’s about…

Just as u have the freedom 2 consume alcohol, drugs etc. in a country and society that is p. conservative & religious…so should those who choose, have the right 2 cover..it’s about FREEDOM OF CHOICE..u don’t agree with their choices….then don’t…but don’t judge…

You, interestingly, mention that there was a BOOBFEST at the engagement party you attended, however, u didn’t seem to have a lof of respect 4 those girls who were there dressed in their finery, heaving breasts and all, seeking husbands…no respect if their breasts r exposed…no respect if their hair is covered…

U need 2 rethink this entire thing…

If u aren’t keen on hijabis then don’t date or marry any…people have 2 leave each other be…let one another live their lives as they see fit…

Ur logic is no better than that of the people who try 2 superimpose their rigid religious beliefs on others…u sound like the other side of the same coin…

NAILED IT AGAIN

July 2, 2008 at 11:05 pm

Easy there anonymous, this blog is just a fun bubble of fairy gas and fervent fallacies…with your intense remark, which there is no come back for, you are popping the opium bubble of this blogs occupants and ruining the euphoric effect that the transcendence into this pseudo intellect world gives its travellers. You just proved their God ito be a mortal being with a really bad case of cognitive haemorrhoids.

I wouldn’t even wanna see him try to make a come back to that one. Actually I would!

JT – So you spoke to one U.S service woman (a totally unbiased source) and now you know about the whole of Afghanistan. Good for you.

However, you appear not to know the difference between wearing hijab and wearing a burkha. They are not the same. Maybe you can ask another of your friends and then you will be an expert in all forms of Muslim dress.

Oh and Sandmonkey, if a stupid advert was all it took to make you decide not to fight for the public safety of a sizeable proportion of Egyptian women, then you’re probably not worth having as an ally anyway.

Back in December of 2007, a 16 year old girl was murdered by her father and brother for allegedly not wanting to wear a hijab. It is said that this might be Canada’s first honor killing, nuff said… ciao

JT

JT – So you spoke to one U.S service woman (a totally unbiased source) and now you know about the whole of Afghanistan. Good for you.

I didn’t just spoke to one. I have read countless stories about this form of oppression from numerous sources, where women and girls are forced to wear this hijab/burkha.

However, you appear not to know the difference between wearing hijab and wearing a burkha. They are not the same. Maybe you can ask another of your friends and then you will be an expert in all forms of Muslim dress.

A hijab covers the hair but leaves the face visible, whereas a burkha or niqab leaves only a slit for the eyes. Some Muslim women/girls wear the hijab, while others wear the whole tent. Both are worn in Muslim countries. For you to try to fault me for a technicality is, in my opinion, disingenuous. I don’t have to grow up in a Muslim family or study Islamic culture for years to understand this issue. All I have to do is pay attention to the news and talk to other Muslims as well as non-Muslims like military service members who are deployed to Muslim countries. I then compare and contrast what I read and hear, and look for inconsistencies. Unfortunately, the stories suggest this is a heavy yoke that women in Muslim countries, as well as Muslim women in the West, have to carry on their backs.

Craig

July 3, 2008 at 6:58 am

That’s 78% believers against 22% atheists worldwide according to statistics.

Are your statistics including agnostics in with atheists by any chance? I don’t have time right now to check the stats, but there is no way in hell that I am believing almost a quarter of the people in the world are actual atheists.

Craig

July 3, 2008 at 7:04 am

PS to Eva:

How does your study handle communist countries, where atheism is mandated by law? Because my ex-wife’s family comes from mainland (communist) China, and they are Buddhists. Speaking of which, how does your study handle Buddhists? Some people claim Buddhism is a philosophy and not a religion. It all gets very confusing, right? But all of the atheists I’ve ever encountered, I encountered on the internet. And I do mean ALL. So I’m having a great deal of difficulty believing there is some vast pool of atheists someplace, when I’ve never met a single one here in Southern California.

Craig

July 3, 2008 at 7:12 am

PPS: That’s 78% believers against 22% atheists worldwide according to statistics. I figure it’s the same percentage as for sheep and volves.

Nah, wolves have never been that numerous, even before they were hunted the brink of extinction. Also, that’s probably not the example you wanted to use, is it!? I mean, look what happened to the poor wolves…

Lowfields

July 3, 2008 at 7:15 am

“There is no way in hell that I am believing almost a quarter of the people in the world are actual atheists….”

Why not? You believe in a book that dates the world at 4,500 years old. You believe the revealed word of God explains our planet as hemisphere circumlocated by the sun. You believe that Adam and Eve bypassed the dinosaurs and that there’s no such thing as evolution….

Olive Picker

July 3, 2008 at 9:00 am

You know, it just hit me. The Offspring song title “Pretty Fly for a White Guy” just got a whole new meaning.

Joking aside, let’s not turn this into another atheists versus theists debate. The way I see it, this topic is about violence against women and the Metro Cinema episode shows that even in niqabs women are not protected. Hijabi girls should be demanding that the women who choose not to follow the local muslim dress code should get the same amount of respect as them, and that any act of violence against any woman to be punishable by law. This whole gilrs are lollies, boys are flies ad is just perpetuating the odious excuse of “she asked for it”.

Craig

July 3, 2008 at 9:13 am

Joking aside, let’s not turn this into another atheists versus theists debate.

Yeah, I hate those. The only thing worse than arguing about religion, is arguing about religion with atheists. But it may be unavoidable on this issue, because atheists are the natural enemies of any display of religious belief.

Seems that atheism is concentrated in countries that suffered the most from religions wars.

as far as the topic, wasn’t Eve created from an Adam’s coast ? then, I understand why men would cover their coast subtitute : they are afraid that a dog would steal it 😆 (uh, remember the Sabines rapt, ie roman history, why always rapting women ????)

NAILED IT AGAIN

July 3, 2008 at 12:56 pm

SANDCRAB you never answered this guy back…

This comment is directed soley 2 Sandmonkey

I have 2 say…isn’t the basis of your belief system primarily that people be FREE to choose how to live…yourself included…isn’t that the reason u c the West as a good example of how societies should be run?

So if this is the case, then why do u not feel that women have the right 2 cover…in the West, we have the freedom to go topless or be covered with niqab (although that has it’s own logistic issues). The key is the freedom..the right 2 dress as one chooses.

If u think it’s oppressive, that’s ur opinion…but in terms of being a champion for those that are covering…i’m not sure what that’s about…

Just as u have the freedom 2 consume alcohol, drugs etc. in a country and society that is p. conservative & religious…so should those who choose, have the right 2 cover..it’s about FREEDOM OF CHOICE..u don’t agree with their choices….then don’t…but don’t judge…

You, interestingly, mention that there was a BOOBFEST at the engagement party you attended, however, u didn’t seem to have a lof of respect 4 those girls who were there dressed in their finery, heaving breasts and all, seeking husbands…no respect if their breasts r exposed…no respect if their hair is covered…

U need 2 rethink this entire thing…

If u aren’t keen on hijabis then don’t date or marry any…people have 2 leave each other be…let one another live their lives as they see fit…

Ur logic is no better than that of the people who try 2 superimpose their rigid religious beliefs on others…u sound like the other side of the same coin…

Easy there anonymous, this blog is just a fun bubble of fairy gas and fervent fallacies…with your intense remark, which there is no come back for, you are popping the opium bubble of this blogs occupants and ruining the euphoric effect that the transcendence into this pseudo intellect world gives its travellers. You just proved their God ito be a mortal being with a really bad case of cognitive haemorrhoids.

I wouldn’t even wanna see him try to make a come back to that one. Actually I would!

Craig

July 3, 2008 at 5:10 pm

Seems that atheism is concentrated in countries that suffered the most from religions wars.

That’s crap. Europeans didn’t become atheists until recently, and those religious wars in Europe happened so long ago that my ancestors were still living in Europe at the time. You do realize that the US was settled by exiles and refugees from Europe’s religious wars, right? That’s why the founding fathers insisted on writing “freedom of religion” into the constitution. But, it didn’t make them atheists.

what you describe is your perception of anglo-saxon perspective ; though since the rationalism became the modus viendi of our philosophes and scientists, then i”atheism appears since the 18th century, officialised in the Revolution and Bonaparte period

our religion wars were also an important factor.

now, I think this intellectual elite didn’t describe itself as atheist, but more as free-thinkers ; while the “plebe” still believed in God and practiced catholiscism : the raison also was because the only educateds were nobles and clerics : the notables that enframed the population. It is easier to guard a population that is afraid of a God punition.

It’s only when education became obligatory for each child that “atheism” gain more adherents. Don’t forget that then a laic state educated the masses. and made possible that nowadays 33 % label themselves as atheists.

I wouldn’t adopt that label though, but the free-thinker one, since I am not a fan of God existence or non-existence demonstration.

Craig

Craig

July 3, 2008 at 6:36 pm

PS-I still think agnostics are improperly being classified as “atheist”. I used to be agnostic myself, and I know of a lot of people right now who are agnostic. But it takes a great deal of effort for a person to convince themselves beyond any doubt that there is no “higher power” in the entire universe. Disposing of the spiritual aspects of human nature is not done so easily, either. We have an instinctive need to try to connect with something outside of ourselves.

Madouc

July 3, 2008 at 6:58 pm

These hijabi ladies(and the men that love them) need to get a clue. If you put a mediocre woman in a hijab behind a 20 ft lead wall a man would still be thinking about having sex with her. Sorry, but I’ve often walked around Miami all day wearing a bikini top and short shorts and I’ve never once been thrown down and raped. Gawked at, but that’s ok. That’s just human nature. You cover up ankles long enough and eventually people will start thinking that ankles are ‘naughty’. I’m with you SM, sometimes I just want to give up on other women who just don’t get it.

CarpetCaptain

July 4, 2008 at 4:48 am

It goes right out of the window when I hear booty shorts and i end up turning into a sailor in port. Those things have done miracles to the bum that have far exceeded the wonder bra except that when you take a pair off your dont wonder what happened to the boobs 😀 😉

CarpetCaptain

Happy 4th ofo July! I can’t wait to see what Sandmonkey the “sellout” does to help us celebrate. My guess is he’ll go get drunk and make some snarky hungover post about something completely irrelevant, like Egypt.

anonymous

I actually didn’t expect a comeback…Egyptian men don’t tend 2 admit when they r wrong or when they logic is a bit off…hell not just Egyptian men…Arab men…in general…not all but the majority..

But thanks 4 letting me know that this just 1 dude’s attempt 2 entertain and create a loyal and faithful following…how boring that must be…i actually sorta thought he occassionally had an intelletual thought or 2 running around in his head when he wasn’t busy griping about all of the women who drive me crazy

anonymous

Olive Picker

July 5, 2008 at 6:30 am

# Craig Says:
July 3rd, 2008 at 9:13 am

Joking aside, let’s not turn this into another atheists versus theists debate.

Yeah, I hate those. The only thing worse than arguing about religion, is arguing about religion with atheists. But it may be unavoidable on this issue, because atheists are the natural enemies of any display of religious belief.

….

I resent that comment because although me and organised religion have mutually withdrawn embassies I do not resent displays of religious beliefs. Religion is one of the things that shape us on our formative years and brings a sense of continuity in our cultural matrix, and the religious practices that survived the transition from dodekatheism to Christianity are exactly the ones that give people a chance to be merry together. I treat carol-singing children on Christmas Eve and missed them one year when the media started a frenzy about kiddies getting mugged by bullies. I enjoy going through the Easter traditions every year, and I dance at weddings. And I never fail to Thank God It’s Friday, especially when coming out of night shifts.

What I do resent though is that religious believers think that somehow their arguments will get a free ride in a secular debate. I do not mind hijabi-wearing girls and women. What I *do* mind is the implication that just because their heads are covered that makes them more likely, to put it mildly, to lead a moral lifestyle, when there are places in the world where going out in trousers and long coats and hijab, with only the face and the hands showing, would earn them a public stoning for dressing up provocatively.

CarpetCaptain

July 6, 2008 at 2:48 am

The American atheists are a little extreme. I remeber the clown from Seattle a few years back who sued the school board for expecting his daughter to recite the Pledge becuase it contained the word God and therefore infringed on separation of church and state. I always wondered who was next the US treasury for the having the word God (in god we trust) on the currency.

Olive Picker

I’m guessing you don’t live in the United States! Or if you do, you are in an extreme minority as a “tolerant” atheist, and you must know that…

…………

No, I do not live in the United States, I was born and raised in Greece, where religious education in compulsory and thank God for that, there’s nothing better if you want to make at least agnostics, of which I know several.

Thing is, when my sister was still in high school she had a religious education teacher who was saying that Evolution in wrong and we really did come from Adam and Eve, and the kids just laughed at him. I don’t have the need to protect my children by that load of tripe called “intelligent design”. I don’t have to fight for the integrity of the science teaching.

And now that I work in England, I am beginning to get annoyed by the free ride religion is getting, in the name of “diversity”. A couple of weeks ago a Muslim registrar got a bollocking from a senior nurse because he drew an arrow on a broken limp, while wearing a suit. Trust Policy on microbe control wants arms to be bare up to the elbow. Yet there are Muslim doctors who are dressed hijab-style and continue to handle ill patients with impunity.

What can I say, I am a believer in equal opportunity dissing. If someone wants to have a discussion on any topic with me and brings a religious point as an argument, then that argument will be debated. I will not back down just because the co-debater thinks s/he has the ultimate trump card. And if I had to put up with the nonesense Richard Dawkins has to, then I would very probably be as angry and resentful as him.

yochanan

July 7, 2008 at 8:37 pm

Tzniut includes a group of laws concerned with modesty, in both dress and behavior. It is first mentioned in this context by the prophet Micah (6:8): “[…] and to walk humbly (hatzne’a leches) with your God”. In the Babylonian Talmud, Rabbi Elazar Bar Tzadok connected this prophetic precept with modesty and discretion in dress and in behavior (Tractate Sukkah 49b).

In the legal dimension of Orthodox Rabbinic literature, the issue of Tzniut is discussed in more technical terms: how much skin may a person expose when out of one’s home, and so on. Notwithstanding these details, the concept of humility and modesty as a positive character trait, a practice, and a way of life — a “way of walking” — is also taught to be important in Rabbinic literature. This awareness informs the concept and the practice of Tzniut in its rules and details.

You don’t have to worry about Jewish women every being subservient to there husbands, not going to happen. My wife is my boss.

This is such an obvious example of how religions turn mankind into idiots.

Even the relatively smart ones, who can think and create an advertisements like this one, are capable of defending some 1400 years assumptions against women (and also men).. We also know what stupid ones do.

samsung syncmaster

August 5, 2008 at 2:42 pm

“Nah, wolves have never been that numerous, even before they were hunted the brink of extinction. Also, that’s probably not the example you wanted to use, is it!? I mean, look what happened to the poor wolves…”

Hans

November 29, 2009 at 1:36 am

This incident is not directly related to this post.

But it says a lot about sexuality, I think.

When I was in Cairo at some Motocross show down at the pyramids, I saw all those kids dancing to some house. It was only guys dancing although there were more women with hair and sexy skirts and shirts than I had ever seen in Egypt. Anyway those ‘liberal’ highclass egyptian girls still were too prude to dance. Then there was this one chick that danced along with some guys. And in a couple of minutes she was completely surrounded by dozens of guys that wanted to get close to her dancing.

It looked like the last scene from ‘The Perfume’ when the main character get eaten by lowlifes.

This was some scary shit. and any sane person would keep away from a girl that already has a dance partner…or max 2.

I love Egypt but things like that scare the shit out of me.
Get your thoughts straight. Something is going wrong.

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