[cryptome] Re: The CIA Saves Lives

From: doug <douglasrankine2001@xxxxxxxxxxx>

To: cryptome@xxxxxxxxxxxxx

Date: Wed, 10 Dec 2014 18:27:37 +0000

It is very difficult to find someone honest in the CIA. Can you name
any? All the ones I know are all in prison or in hiding, or their
mouths are bound by legal tape. Official secrets are not there for the
purpose of hiding wrong doing, they are there for keeping a nations'
secrets. Keeping a nations secrets doesn't prevent civil servants
from being prosecuted. Aren't they there to serve the people?

George Washington never told a lie...but he had a secret service.

Tell me, do any of the presidents who have run the USA in the last 30
years, done it on the basis of what is best for the people? Would you
care to name one?

Who are these wikispooks...I have never heard of them. Are they funded
by the CIA...or don't you know... :-).

The CIA torture program was organised long after 9/11. It wasn't about
catching immediate imminent terrorist action. It was supposed to be
aimed at finding out who the terrorists were, and their links to Al
Queda and the perpetrators of the bombing of Twin Towers. It never
discovered any imminent plots, as I already said, it didn't share any
information at all with anyone, in fact, denied its existence.

Would you support "necessary brutality" towards others. Pray tell us
under what circumstances you would carry out torture, what torture would
you use, would you do it yourself, or have others do it for you on your
own behalf. That is where, what you are saying, leads to, in my opinion.

Perhaps my propoganda is better. Would you say that you have been fed
the truth? Can people be fed the truth, or fed lies. I suppose it
depends on the gullibility factor, and as I have always said on here I
am gullible for a story... :-). Convince me...Smokey Dawg... :-). At
least I don't hide behind a pseudonym...

With the kindest of regards.
ATB
Dougie.
On 10/12/14 16:05, Chien Fume wrote:

Peter:

Amazing how you did a Straw Man on what I wrote. Really... this takes
some practice. In spite of your uncritical inferences and
pole-vaulting to a number of conclusions, perhaps I didn't make myself
clear.

There's a difference between the system as established in the U.S.
Constitution and the way this system has been (is now being) used.

Who could possibly agree with all that's been done using the U.S.
system? And who really believes that the fellow currently occupying
the position of POTUS has the best interests of anyone other than
those whom he serves. And can't the same be said of most (but not all)
of those who've become POTUS through the years? Yet, haven't there
been enough people along the way who respected what the United States
Constitution was really about... starting with George Washington, who
could easily have become a king.

If you can, talk to somebody who has worked in the CIA in a serious
position... if they're honest with you at all, they'll tell you the
Agency isn't monolithic. There have always been competing groups...
and this was true during the OSS days, and the agencies that existed
before OSS... going all the way back to the Revolution. For quite some
time, the Agency has been dominated by people who are essentially
stuck in a strange Reality Tunnel. For a long time, starting with the
post-WWII cooperation with the former SS officers and NSDAP
scientists, they've been assisting some of the worst groups of
people... but that doesn't mean that there aren't opposing voices
inside the Agency (although they're now mostly forced to remain
silent, looking for an opportunity and hoping for a dramatic change in
direction).

And exactly whose interests are you serving with your Wikispooks site?
Who pays your bills, maintains your website, approves the things you
allow to be entered there? Would it happen to be an immensely wealthy
Hungarian fellow? The real-life person that Orson Welles parodied in
his not-so-successful "Mr. Arkadin"?

Are you really any different than those you criticize? For the
purposes of discussion, please engage in a thought experiment with a
hypothetical situation... Were you to have someone in your custody who
had knowledge of the imminent slaughter of someone (or several
someones) really close to you... what would you do? Let's say you had
only a few hours to prevent the horror. Cigarette to the eyeball,
perhaps? Electric shocks to the sensitive parts? Dentist tools to the
various nerve clusters? Or would you just let your dear ones be
slaughtered?

I don't believe you've ever been in a position such as described
above, and I doubt that the most pious and vociferous critic of the
CIA in this forum ever has been in any position at all that would
qualify them to pontificate. But maybe someone has been... and that
was the real purpose of my original message... to see if someone would
just come out and admit it.

Does any of this mean I support unnecessary brutality against others?
Of course not.

One could add a lot of items to your list. If those are all you can
come up with, then again it seems your knowledge is limited to the
propaganda you've been fed. Or perhaps you're trained in the rather
simple techniques of obfuscation.

Also, applying critical inference, presumably you believe that other
governments in the world are pure as Snow White. Are you a fan of
China, North Korea, Saudi Arabia, the large Muslim movement that's
rising up all over the world? 'Who do you serve? And who do you
trust?' (kludged from one of my favorite spin-offs from the Babylon TV
series).

Personally, although I'm no longer in America, I'm convinced that the
United States Constitution is a singularly unique document. It must be
preserved... actually right now, it must be restored to the authority
it is supposed to be (not the Presidential fiats, or the whimsical
rules of probably-illegal bureaucracies like the IRS, DHS, ATF, and
most of the other Alphabet Agencies.

There's a long-term effort to destroy the unique United States system
of government... most of the time with people openly stating their
intentions. Obama and his associates (including the Emmanuel Brothers)
have stated their intentions. Eric Holder, heck the whole sick crew
and their allies in Wall Street want to turn America into another
North Korea or China. What is the Facebook front-man Zukerberg doing
in China, praising the atrocious dictatorship there? And what do you
know of the torture methods China uses... or that are used in Saudi
Arabia, Iran, and many other places?

So do your best to go back to my original message and answer the
questions asked there.

On 10/12/2014 13:10, Chien Fume wrote:
> a system of government that, like it or not, has done more good
than harm
If you genuinely believe that then we are at the core of the problem.
Here are some of the bads:
1. Treating the South American continent as a collection of vassal
states through much of the 20th century with a continuing fierce
opposition to any gestures of independence from their varying current
states of vassal-hood.
2. Raising every North Korean city to the ground through the early
1950's, killing millions both North and South in the process.
3. Killing 3 million Vietnamese and poisoning both population and land
for decades - to what purpose was that repulsive episode directed?
4. Afghanistan, Iraq, Libya, Syria, Ukraine costing millions more
lives
and the destruction of ancient cultures.
And they are just the tip of the 20th century iceberg of 'do
things our
way or else' threats menaces and similarly dirty covert operations,
which continue with increasing desperation.
Don't you think the Empire might just have something badly wrong?
or is
it all going to plan? I'd be interested in your views.
And while you're at it, maybe a similar list of those 'goods' you see.
PeterP