Messages - Evolve

I'm with trollis and googler on this one. I have some sympathy for the Palestinian people, but not because of the "oppression" they feel at the hands of Israel. The Palestinians are victims of their own radical leadership that insist upon heaping violence upon them by terrorizing Israel. They need to get their poop in a group, get Hamas out and a more moderate Fatah in before there will be any real peace.

I am not attending Drexel. I've read a lot and talked to some admission counselors (not affiliated with either school) about Rutgers-Newark and Drexel. Most people going to Rutgers-Newark are looking to transfer out after year 1. The neighborhood sucks and your competing with many many law schools in the NYC area.

Those who would auomatically pick Rutgers over Drexel are doing nothing but reading US News and do not have a long-term view.

Fair enough and I think I agree with your long-term assessment. How much do you feel that applies to the class of '09? While I feel that one day Drexel will be competitive, if not surpass, Rutgers I can't help but think that for this class the decision is a little tighter.

Rutgers Newark is not easy to transfer out of. They also don't rank which adds to the difficulty. I don't think jobs in NYC are out of your reach if you attend Drexel. Drexel alumni will be supportive in NYC, and again, you will get far more attention from the school and career services than at Rutgers. Believe me Rutgers is a state school with a chip on its shoulder.

I've talked to several people who have transfered out of Rutgers. I'm aware that they don't rank, but its my understanding that that isn't a hinderance because a) schools can tell by your GPA vs. the curve, b) they admit their top 10% into Order of the Coif and that, therefore, ranks you, & c) upon request they can figure your percentile which also works. I do agree that jobs in NYC might not be out of reach for a Drexel graduate, but nonetheless major NYC firms recruit out of Rutgers and don't from Drexel. Whats more, none of Drexel's co-ops extend into NYC so that advantage is gone which leaves it at a severe deficit, in my opinion, in employing in NYC versus Rutgers-Newark. That being said, I'm not certain I necessarily want to practice in NYC over Philly, but I can't help but feel Rutgers overall opens more doors, in more fields, in more areas than Drexel (at least for Drexel's first class).

I'm curious though, abffrance. I have a lot of faith in their program, but I think I have legitimate and objective doubts. Its clear that you don't share my doubts in the least. Did you face a similar decision and come to some conclusion that I haven't reached yet? Are you attending Drexel? It just seems like I'm getting some fairly one-sided feedback from you and I'm just curious if you know something I don't.

that's a nice employer list (i see mine on there ...good to hear you're up to speed on the particulars of the program. how about employment after school...does the co-op program purport to lead to permanent opportunities, or are you on your own after you finish a co-op w/ an employer? do both terms need to be done with the same employer?

good luck; keep us posted on what you decide.

Thanks. Considering that this is the biggest decision I have had to make to date, I'm doing my best to be as informed as possible. I can tell you that both terms do not have to be with the same employer, in fact its my impression that attempting to spend both terms with the same employer is frowned upon if its allowed at all. As for employment after school, its really hard to say. Being that this is the first class there is no telling for certain. I do think that co-op to employment is the assumption the school and most students are working under though. In the long run, that doesn't really seem feasible though and it'll be interesting to see how previous co-op'ers fair in getting summer internships versus non co-op'ers. Beyond that it'll be just as interesting to see how co-op'ers fair gaining employment with these employers compared to students who only interned there.

I'm not really concerned with unemployment. As several of you have pointed out, as a member of the inaugural class they will make sure I am employed. I am worried that I won't be able to get the kind of employment I want or that I think I will deserve. From visiting Philly I can say that I really do enjoy the city, but Rutgers employs heavily in THE City. Not to say I'd rather live there, but there's definately more opportunity. Plus, the transfer thing really is lingering in the back of my mind. If I hate it then I'm stuck. What's worse, I can't imagine what I would do if at the end of 1L I am near the top of my class. At Rutgers (or any other ABA school for that matter) I could transfer up. Of course, I am not counting on this but I could see myself really regretting a decision to go to Drexel if that happened.

I am not concerned about the school getting accreditted (I firmly believe it will) nor am I concerned about the alumni base because of the co op program. What does concern me is that its a brand new program in an already crowded legal community and I'm not sure it will be competitive with Temple or Villanova for several years at least.

how does the co-op program work? how will placement be decided? what employers will be participating?

The coop program works by placing a student into two 6 mo. long externships for credit with a co op partner. You can choose to be paid, but then you will not receive credit and you will need to due more. When your time is up you train a new Drexel student to do your job and pick up where you are leaving off. Placement is decided by student interest, employer requirements, the school, and by the employers themselves. The list of employers participating at this time are:CorporationsAqua America, Inc.Bayada Nurses, Inc.CIGNA CorporationIKON Office Solutions, Inc. **Independence Blue CrossIng DirectJackson Cross PartnersLyondell Chemical CompanyOrleans Homebuilders, Inc.PECO Energy/Exelon Business Services CompanyPennoni Associates Inc., Environmental Engineering DivisionSAPSEI Investments CompanySiemens Medical Solutions Health Services CorporationSovereign BankTasty Baking Company, Inc.TMG Health, Inc.Toll Brothers, Inc.VerizonWeston Solutions, Inc.Delaware Valley Corporate Counsel Association

Non-ProfitsAbington Memorial HospitalThe Children's Hospital of PhiladelphiaDrexel University College of Medicine, Office of General CounselKimmel Center for the Performing ArtsNational Constitution CenterThe Pew Charitable TrustsThe Robert Wood Johnson FoundationSt. Luke’s HospitalSt. Joseph's University, Office of the General CounselThomas Jefferson University HospitalUnited Way of Southeastern PennsylvaniaUniversity of Pennsylvania, Office of the General CounselThe Wistar Institute

But I am still concerned about the effect of reputation. Sure Newark has slipped, but from 40 to 80... big deal. It will always be at least a tier 2 school, it has a national reputation, and its graduates are employable throughout the tristate area. Not to mention, that if I go there and do great or don't like I could potentially transfer elsewhere. So, theres my concerns. I'd really like to know what buslaw ended up doing, but any of your input (that doesn't rely on points I've already stated I'm not concerned about) would be appreciated.

I'm trying to decide between several schools regarding where I'll attend next year. I'm leaning heavily towards Rutgers at this point, but its my understanding that they do not rank their students and instead just assign grades. Now, I am not going to go anywhere with the plan to transfer elsewhere and am more than aware of the folly in that kind of thinking. However, the ability to transfer if I don't like a place or if I do exceptionally well is an option I want to keep open. That being said, would going to Rutgers (or any other school with a non-ranking policy) hinder that ability or would the grades received instead substitute for the rank in some manner?

Kent is definately on the rise while Loyola is wavering a bit, however neither is going to break into a new tier upwards or downwards. Loyola currently has a better rep in Chicago, but Kent's is very good and growing. It will pry be just as good if not slightly better within a few years. Loyola is also going through some hard times rankings-wise, but they are still a solid T2 plus rankings really aren't that practically important anyway. I think the main thing you need to look at is what type of law you are interested in. Kent has a better IP program, though Loyola's is good as well. Loyola has a better health law and public law program, though Kent's is also good.

Honestly, what you need to do is ignore the rankings and everything else you know about the programs second hand. Then visit both campuses, sit in on some classes, and talk to the admissions folks (if you haven't done all that already). Finally make your decision based of off what you know about the schools and how you feel about them. One way or another you can rest assured that you'll be attending a quality school that will place you well in the Chicago market regardless of where you decide to go.

My vote goes to Kaplan. They do need to be at least in the 90th percentile to be considered, however most are in the 170s because they tend to give the job to the person with the highest LSAT of all the applicants.