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RearviewmirrorJoined: 24 Jan 2009Posts: 19430Location: ^^Tamba waiting on his next feast in the Avy Ryk on the sig

Posted: Sun Nov 18, 2012 11:55 pm Post subject:

Rearviewmirror wrote:

Eric Berry wrote:

so you like Marquise Lee? Me too!

DAMN! I'm breaking my own rule. I'd take Bark in top of round 2ish. Maybe 10th in 10 with a trade back. I'd rather wait until the 6th and take Collin Klein after taking Geno #1. Damn there I go again breaking my rule._________________

les paul wrote:

There's only one thing that determines a teams performance on any given sunday
Their opponent-

DAMN! I'm breaking my own rule. I'd take Bark in top of round 2ish. Maybe 10th in 10 with a trade back. I'd rather wait until the 6th and take Collin Klein after taking Geno #1. Damn there I go again breaking my rule.

West Virginia is currently in a three-game losing streak and Smith’s struggles have gone unnoticed by some. Geno was off to a hot start this year (24 TDs, 0 INTs), but has not been anywhere near as good during the three-game skid (681 yards, 5 TDs, 3 INTs). In contrast, in losing efforts by Barkley’s Trojans, he has thrown for 1,231 yards, 8 TDs, and 6 INTs.

DAMN! I'm breaking my own rule. I'd take Bark in top of round 2ish. Maybe 10th in 10 with a trade back. I'd rather wait until the 6th and take Collin Klein after taking Geno #1. Damn there I go again breaking my rule.

West Virginia is currently in a three-game losing streak and Smith’s struggles have gone unnoticed by some. Geno was off to a hot start this year (24 TDs, 0 INTs), but has not been anywhere near as good during the three-game skid (681 yards, 5 TDs, 3 INTs). In contrast, in losing efforts by Barkley’s Trojans, he has thrown for 1,231 yards, 8 TDs, and 6 INTs.

This week, at the request of The Times, three NFL scouts opened their notebooks and anonymously shared their thoughts on the professional futures of some of the top Bruins and Trojans. The scouts steered clear of talking at length about underclassmen, players they haven't thoroughly evaluated yet, but did offer some thoughts on some, [...]

•QUARTERBACK: USC's Matt Barkley is solid, and is widely expected to go in the first round, but it's Hundley who has the scouts buzzing.

Scout 1 on Barkley: "He's got a very good understanding of the game, and he's a great leader. Physically, he's very average. When he's throwing it across the field on a deep out, the ball sort of hangs in the air. He doesn't have that ability to just drive it. In the NFL, with the corners, they break so much quicker. They see it quicker, they close. A lot of those balls are going the other direction at the next level."

Scout 2 on Barkley: "He's got to be a decision-making, timing passer. That's kind of his game. When he's in rhythm, and he's making good decisions, which a lot of times he's good to very good, he can have success. If a play breaks down, or there's pressure, he's not going to be the kind of quarterback to improvise or make an athletic play."

What is it about Barkley's game that guarantees he won't be looked at with the first overall pick? Let's break it down.

Arm Strength

When given time in the pocket, Barkley can deliver strikes on a dime anywhere within a 20-yard range. Hurry him—where he's asked to make plays off balance or on the move—and that range comes down to about 10 yards.

Ask Barkley to throw a timing route into a small window? Probably not a good idea.

You can see in the drive above against Stanford—a team that Barkley has never beaten, by the way—that when pressured, his arm strength isn't ideal. Is this a deal breaker in the NFL? Definitely not, but the other areas of his game must evolve for Barkley's less-than-ideal arm to not hold him back.

Decision-Making

The USC offense is often called an '"NFL-system," and in some ways, it is. Compared to the Oregon Ducks offense, USC does look more like a conventional NFL scheme—but one area where the Trojans have protected Barkley (and other quarterbacks) is by limiting their decision-making responsibilities.

The USC offense asks Barkley to throw a catchable ball, but largely to set up catch-and-run situations like the one shown below. Reminiscent of the late-'80s San Francisco 49ers offense, Barkley is throwing inside slants and checkdowns and letting his receivers make plays in space.

You never want to scout a box score, especially interceptions due to the nature of responsibility on any given pass, but it is telling that Barkley's interceptions have gone from seven in 2011 to 13 through 10 games of the 2012 season. Scouts and teams need to look at why his turnover numbers have jumped.

The overwhelming aspect of the USC offense is that Barkley is throwing to the open man on most downs. He's checking down to the flats or to a weak-side tight end early and often. That's not an NFL scheme.

Take the above play. This is a very common USC look. Off of play action, Barkley rolls to his right—smart play for a team with a good running back and an athletic quarterback—but note how many receivers are in the frame (one) giving Barkley an easy checkdown.

It's smart offense, but it's not NFL-level decision-making.

Size

You're undoubtedly going to hear a lot about Matt Barkley's height in the coming months, but the reality is it's not that big of a deal (no pun intended).

Barkley is listed at 6'2" and 230 lbs, and while he's not Ben Roethlisberger, his listed size is nothing to complain about. If he comes in under 6'2" at the Senior Bowl or NFL Scouting Combine, then the talk will creep up about his size being a factor—but compared to two rookies starting in the NFL right now, Barkley's size isn't the issue many make it out to be.

If Barkley comes in as listed, take those doubting his size and remind them that he's seven pounds heavier than Robert Griffin III.

Talent Level

Perhaps the most valid criticism of Barkley comes from those looking at the talent around him. This is something I've long said about the USC quarterback. Extrapolating Barkley from the USC scheme and talent to see how well he plays is key.

Hopefully he accepts an invitation to the Senior Bowl, where scouts will have a full week of Barkley without the trusted Trojan offense backing him up.

Positives

It's not all bad when evaluating Matt Barkley's play and ability. He has very clean mechanics—from his drop-step to his actual delivery, and few college quarterbacks are as crisp, fluid and sharp as Barkley.

His accuracy on passes under 20 yards is spot-on—the velocity isn't great, but the accuracy definitely is. Perhaps the biggest positive for Barkley is that he's a bright, very likable guy. NFL scouts, coaches and general managers will love the kid they interview and break down film with.

These are all positives that Barkley can build on. He's been a winner at a big program, and that success alone is likely to tempt a general manager into trusting his franchise in the hands of Matt Barkley.

One important thing to remember: How high Barkley is drafted most likely won't reflect the grade he's given by those watching film.

For every negative you throw out about Geno or Wilson, or anyone else, there's just as many with Barkley. This is the problem, there is no blue chip player at the position. Chances are there is one really good if not elite QB in this draft, but it's going to take some projecting to figure out who that is, because everyone has some big concerns.

This is why we are looking at other options, because going into the 04 draft, I doubt anyone had Roethlisberger as anything more then a 2nd rounder. Very few had Joe Flacco going in the 1st IIRC, and same goes for Cutler. And even Philip Rivers was far from being a clear cut 1st rounder.

Guys like Wilson, Manuel, Glennon, and even Dysert deserve some attention for the things they've done. See, they mostly don't have the benefit of probably 7 future NFL starters playing on offense with them. It's much harder to figure out how they project to the NFL.

If just anyone could figure this out, and the guy with the most hype always was successful, then Jamarcus Russel would still be in this league, ready to seize the mantle of great QBing from Ryan Leaf and Akili Smith._________________
^ryknowssd on the sig

Joined: 31 Aug 2011Posts: 7806Location: Hate for the Donkeys is at a mile high

Posted: Mon Nov 19, 2012 10:42 am Post subject:

JHawk24 wrote:

Absolutely not. He isn't an NFL QB. His short routes lack placement, his deep balls lack zip and loft when needed. His is exactly the same QB as MC. I said it before that he would have a Quinn like drop, now I'm saying he falls into the mid second.

Does that mean if Cassel played at USC (and obviously he would've done pretty well...I think) he likely would have gone in the 2nd round?

RVM, you should add a poll to this just to see how many are in favor compared to how many are against taking Barkley. For me personally, I can't see any reason to take him, he really hasn't shown he's got anything more than Stanzi. I could easily see Ricky having a better career if he played at USC. I don't even think Barkley needs to be in Kansas City Chiefs discussions any longer.

Nic, I'm curious as to why your biggest issues with Barkley are his height and arm strength...neither are great, but both are sufficient if you have the rest of the tools an NFL QB needs...which you seem to be implying he has._________________

BroncosFan2010 wrote:

Your Denver hatred is borderline pathological. I don't think my girlfriend cheating on me would cause me as much hate as you have for Denver.

Last edited by ArrowheadRage58 on Mon Nov 19, 2012 11:36 am; edited 3 times in total

Bigs quotes hit on my biggest Barkley reservations. Thats why I view him a game manager.

I want a guy that can physically dominate a game. That has that capability in his arm. Add in a brain and heart to go with it.. and that's my QB. Barkley fails the phsyical for me._________________Throw to score! Run to win!
2014 Adopt-A-Chief: #29 Eric Berry, S
Stats: Irrelevant Status: Chief family for life!
Get well soon EB29!!

Bigs quotes hit on my biggest Barkley reservations. Thats why I view him a game manager.

I want a guy that can physically dominate a game. That has that capability in his arm. Add in a brain and heart to go with it.. and that's my QB. Barkley fails the phsyical for me.

that's why I want Geno. He's got all the tools. Just needs to put it all together.

Agreed. He's the guy I want too. (though I really like Glennon too)

So what's there to like about Glennon? I watched about 2 QTR's of the Clemson game off and on, and he looked really inconsistent. That one throw off his back foot in the Endzone when the game was still within reach that went for an INT really turned me off. In that situation, you cannot take that throw.

One throw, and overall one game against pretty good competition, but I didn't really see much to get really excited about. If this was 2010, I'd love the idea of getting him in the 3rd, but given our current situation, I don't see any case where he makes sense for us._________________
^ryknowssd on the sig

Bigs quotes hit on my biggest Barkley reservations. Thats why I view him a game manager.

I want a guy that can physically dominate a game. That has that capability in his arm. Add in a brain and heart to go with it.. and that's my QB. Barkley fails the phsyical for me.

that's why I want Geno. He's got all the tools. Just needs to put it all together.

Agreed. He's the guy I want too. (though I really like Glennon too)

So what's there to like about Glennon? I watched about 2 QTR's of the Clemson game off and on, and he looked really inconsistent. That one throw off his back foot in the Endzone when the game was still within reach that went for an INT really turned me off. In that situation, you cannot take that throw.

One throw, and overall one game against pretty good competition, but I didn't really see much to get really excited about. If this was 2010, I'd love the idea of getting him in the 3rd, but given our current situation, I don't see any case where he makes sense for us.

To be fair Tyler Wilson has made plenty of questionable decisions this year as has Geno Smith. And I really like Wilson. Now, in no way am I saying Glennon is a first round pick, but I do think there is alot to work with and has been the case with Glennon and Wilson, both quarterbacks have struggled at times trying to carry the team inspite of poor defensive play and to varying degrees a lack of playmakers around them (not to mention in the case of both NC State and Arkansas overall poor offensive line play).

It really isn't fair to judge a prospect off of one game much less one play. But you are right in insinuating that he is more of a project than some of the other prospects. And I would add, the issues that Glennon has can be corrected with NFL caliber coaching - with the likely exception of our current coaching staff of course._________________

Joined: 31 Aug 2011Posts: 7806Location: Hate for the Donkeys is at a mile high

Posted: Mon Nov 19, 2012 11:53 am Post subject:

Eric Berry wrote:

Rearviewmirror wrote:

DAMN! I'm breaking my own rule. I'd take Bark in top of round 2ish. Maybe 10th in 10 with a trade back. I'd rather wait until the 6th and take Collin Klein after taking Geno #1. Damn there I go again breaking my rule.

West Virginia is currently in a three-game losing streak and Smith’s struggles have gone unnoticed by some. Geno was off to a hot start this year (24 TDs, 0 INTs), but has not been anywhere near as good during the three-game skid (681 yards, 5 TDs, 3 INTs). In contrast, in losing efforts by Barkley’s Trojans, he has thrown for 1,231 yards, 8 TDs, and 6 INTs.

Interesting, that article said he had flawless footwork while Ryk said it was too inconsistent too even grade....who to trust _________________

BroncosFan2010 wrote:

Your Denver hatred is borderline pathological. I don't think my girlfriend cheating on me would cause me as much hate as you have for Denver.

DAMN! I'm breaking my own rule. I'd take Bark in top of round 2ish. Maybe 10th in 10 with a trade back. I'd rather wait until the 6th and take Collin Klein after taking Geno #1. Damn there I go again breaking my rule.

West Virginia is currently in a three-game losing streak and Smith’s struggles have gone unnoticed by some. Geno was off to a hot start this year (24 TDs, 0 INTs), but has not been anywhere near as good during the three-game skid (681 yards, 5 TDs, 3 INTs). In contrast, in losing efforts by Barkley’s Trojans, he has thrown for 1,231 yards, 8 TDs, and 6 INTs.

Interesting, that article said he had flawless footwork while Ryk said it was too inconsistent too even grade....who to trust

Yeah, from what I have seen of Barkley his mechanics (including his footwork) are the least of his issues but I wasn't going to make a big deal about it._________________

Bigs quotes hit on my biggest Barkley reservations. Thats why I view him a game manager.

I want a guy that can physically dominate a game. That has that capability in his arm. Add in a brain and heart to go with it.. and that's my QB. Barkley fails the phsyical for me.

that's why I want Geno. He's got all the tools. Just needs to put it all together.

Agreed. He's the guy I want too. (though I really like Glennon too)

So what's there to like about Glennon? I watched about 2 QTR's of the Clemson game off and on, and he looked really inconsistent. That one throw off his back foot in the Endzone when the game was still within reach that went for an INT really turned me off. In that situation, you cannot take that throw.

One throw, and overall one game against pretty good competition, but I didn't really see much to get really excited about. If this was 2010, I'd love the idea of getting him in the 3rd, but given our current situation, I don't see any case where he makes sense for us.

I agree he (and all of them honestly) have some questionable decision making at times. I'm ok with that as it's coach-able and I think a little bit of that is needed even. Sometimes the gun slinger has to gun sling. Cassel just didnt have a gun to sling with, but I'd not have abused him for making questionable decisions if they were attack mode gun slinger decisions. He couldn't ever do that though cause he was unarmed! When you have a QB that is a game changer physically - I'd accept a bit of that. I was/am a huge Favre fan - never hated him for the bad interceptions.

Glennon's arm is definitively the lure for me, he's got a very live arm. When he's decisive the ball is money. He's also got great size and stands pretty strong in the pocket. I also really like his feel for the short game and screens.

Overall I like his ceiling better than Barkley. Barkley lacks in areas that cannot be coached as well as his decision making. Bad combo!

Bigs quotes hit on my biggest Barkley reservations. Thats why I view him a game manager.

I want a guy that can physically dominate a game. That has that capability in his arm. Add in a brain and heart to go with it.. and that's my QB. Barkley fails the phsyical for me.

that's why I want Geno. He's got all the tools. Just needs to put it all together.

Agreed. He's the guy I want too. (though I really like Glennon too)

So what's there to like about Glennon? I watched about 2 QTR's of the Clemson game off and on, and he looked really inconsistent. That one throw off his back foot in the Endzone when the game was still within reach that went for an INT really turned me off. In that situation, you cannot take that throw.

One throw, and overall one game against pretty good competition, but I didn't really see much to get really excited about. If this was 2010, I'd love the idea of getting him in the 3rd, but given our current situation, I don't see any case where he makes sense for us.

I agree he (and all of them honestly) have some questionable decision making at times. I'm ok with that as it's coach-able and I think a little bit of that is needed even. Sometimes the gun slinger has to gun sling. Cassel just didnt have a gun to sling with, but I'd not have abused him for making questionable decisions if they were attack mode gun slinger decisions. He couldn't ever do that though cause he was unarmed! When you have a QB that is a game changer physically - I'd accept a bit of that. I was/am a huge Favre fan - never hated him for the bad interceptions.

Glennon's arm is definitively the lure for me, he's got a very live arm. When he's decisive the ball is money. He's also got great size and stands pretty strong in the pocket. I also really like his feel for the short game and screens.

Overall I like his ceiling better than Barkley. Barkley lacks in areas that cannot be coached as well as his decision making. Bad combo!

To add to what you said about Cassel, I think one of the biggest issues is he lack of confidence - especially in himself. He doesn't trust himself to be able to put the ball into tight places and IMO especially right now the whole "don't turn the ball over at any cost" has gotten into his head. IMO it has caused him to go ultra conservative and impacts the types of throws he attempts and makes (ex. sailing a ball high to avoid defenders). He has cracked mentally, it's pretty obvious._________________

Bigs quotes hit on my biggest Barkley reservations. Thats why I view him a game manager.

I want a guy that can physically dominate a game. That has that capability in his arm. Add in a brain and heart to go with it.. and that's my QB. Barkley fails the phsyical for me.

that's why I want Geno. He's got all the tools. Just needs to put it all together.

Agreed. He's the guy I want too. (though I really like Glennon too)

So what's there to like about Glennon? I watched about 2 QTR's of the Clemson game off and on, and he looked really inconsistent. That one throw off his back foot in the Endzone when the game was still within reach that went for an INT really turned me off. In that situation, you cannot take that throw.

One throw, and overall one game against pretty good competition, but I didn't really see much to get really excited about. If this was 2010, I'd love the idea of getting him in the 3rd, but given our current situation, I don't see any case where he makes sense for us.

I agree he (and all of them honestly) have some questionable decision making at times. I'm ok with that as it's coach-able and I think a little bit of that is needed even. Sometimes the gun slinger has to gun sling. Cassel just didnt have a gun to sling with, but I'd not have abused him for making questionable decisions if they were attack mode gun slinger decisions. He couldn't ever do that though cause he was unarmed! When you have a QB that is a game changer physically - I'd accept a bit of that. I was/am a huge Favre fan - never hated him for the bad interceptions.

Glennon's arm is definitively the lure for me, he's got a very live arm. When he's decisive the ball is money. He's also got great size and stands pretty strong in the pocket. I also really like his feel for the short game and screens.

Overall I like his ceiling better than Barkley. Barkley lacks in areas that cannot be coached as well as his decision making. Bad combo!

To add to what you said about Cassel, I think one of the biggest issues is he lack of confidence - especially in himself. He doesn't trust himself to be able to put the ball into tight places and IMO especially right now the whole "don't turn the ball over at any cost" has gotten into his head. IMO it has caused him to go ultra conservative and impacts the types of throws he attempts and makes (ex. sailing a ball high to avoid defenders). He has cracked mentally, it's pretty obvious.

Agreed that he's cracked mentally, but I've always felt he doesn't pull the trigger on tight window throws due to not believing in his arm (and for good reason - it sucks!). MC really needs a supremely structured environment - the kind of structure best suited for a back up with limitations. I actually think he will land a back up job somewhere with a strong established starter quite easily. How funny would it be if he went to Pittsburgh (Leftwich sucks) to play within Haley's structure again behind Rothlisberger._________________Throw to score! Run to win!
2014 Adopt-A-Chief: #29 Eric Berry, S
Stats: Irrelevant Status: Chief family for life!
Get well soon EB29!!

DAMN! I'm breaking my own rule. I'd take Bark in top of round 2ish. Maybe 10th in 10 with a trade back. I'd rather wait until the 6th and take Collin Klein after taking Geno #1. Damn there I go again breaking my rule.

West Virginia is currently in a three-game losing streak and Smith’s struggles have gone unnoticed by some. Geno was off to a hot start this year (24 TDs, 0 INTs), but has not been anywhere near as good during the three-game skid (681 yards, 5 TDs, 3 INTs). In contrast, in losing efforts by Barkley’s Trojans, he has thrown for 1,231 yards, 8 TDs, and 6 INTs.

Interesting, that article said he had flawless footwork while Ryk said it was too inconsistent too even grade....who to trust

I'll delve into this a bit more.

When he drops back, sets his feet and his first read is open, his footwork is damn near flawless. When he's forced to go to his check down option or a 2nd read (90% of his 2nd reads are his check down), he hardly ever resets his feet before throwing off balance to his next target. When he's pressured, he throws off his back foot or off balance more than half the time. To his credit, he's more accurate than most college QBs when throwing off balance, but it's still a concern in the NFL because in college, he can get away with that since the DBs are slower than in the NFL.

So, in short, he's very inconsistent when it comes to footwork. I'm assuming the quoted article is only taking into account the times where he can drop back, set his feet and throw to his first read. If not, I have no idea what tape they're watching. Keep in mind the analysis I posted was only based off 3 games from this year._________________