So. One of the main selling points of the Obama brand is the concept of crossing all lines and barriers to create consensus for the greater good, or as close to that greater good as one can get. At least that's what the interpants tell me.

So how come it's Obama supporters who are so emotionally involved that they're actually saying they'd vote for McCain or stay home rather than vote for Hillary? I haven't yet heard ONE SINGLE Hillary supporter threatening to drop party affiliation like a petulant whiny child if she doesn't win. Did I miss something here? When did Obama become Nader? (Iew.)

Yes, virginia, there ARE worse things than a proud bitch heading the country. And if we don't watch out and get over ourselves, we might find out all about it.

1. Many Obama supporters are independents. They don't normally default to Democratic candidates, so they have no strong tendency to just support whichever candidate is put forth by the party. Hillary supporters are part of the Democratic machine already; they'll vote for whoever they have to in the fall as long as they can vote democrat. Obama supporters, not so much.

2. Many Obama supporters are getting engaged in politics specifically because of Obama. And part of the reason they're drawn to him is that he represents himself as a break from the previous 16 years of Clinton-Bush 51%-style politics. While Clinton is nearly indistinguishable from Obama on most policy issues, her campaign style/rhetoric is fully entrenched in the politics of fear, and that turns off a lot of people.

3. A not-insignificant number of people vote on sheer likability, and Hillary loses that competition hands-down.

4. People voting on integrity may see McCain as beating Clinton, under the mistaken assumption that we've time-warped to before the 2000 election, when in fact today it's a wash.

5. Obama's message often comes across as "We can do it." Hillary's often comes across as "I can do it for you." Maybe subtle, but it's noticeable.

If it makes you feel any better Angyl, I'm pretty pro-Obama and anti-Hillary right now, but I will be voting democratic at the general regardless because I'm not shortsighted enough to ignore the fact that when it comes to the issues they are very, very, very similar. Far more in line with my thinking than McCain, anyway.

It may be that there are both Obama-supporters and Hillary-haters. I count myself as one of the former, and am at times dismayed by the haters. For example, the recent ad/animation using text from Sandman I thought was really regretable in that it was aimed at HRC who is not an Enemy but a Competitor. The candidates-in-waiting will deny it, claiming respect for the man's service, but here it is: McCain is the Enemy.

Politics, being as irrational as it is, will always have supporters that promise to do wild and crazy things (like move out of this country, shed their politial affiliation, vote for the "other side", etc). Remember Alec Baldwin?

If it's one thing I've realized having worked in and around politics since '04, it's that 1) nothing makes sense, and 2) supporters tend to become hyper-emotional about their affiliations when the pressure cooker is on, leading them to make rash statements that shouldn't reflect on the candidate him/herself.

I can't say that I've heard any Obama supporters here in the Obamatastic HQ of Chicago say they'd vote for McCain. However, I have heard many, many Republicans whose candidates lost (Huckabee, Paul, etc, etc...) say they'd sooner vote for Hillary or Obama than McCain as punishment for their party's sins.

And just try avoiding talk of Obama out here... Christ, it's nigh impossible to walk two steps outside, or even to a local friend, without something about him coming up. Out here, Hillary might as well be clothed in the hides of innocent children and an avowed consumer of souls.

For me, it's less that I'd drop party affiliation, it's more that I don't have party affiliation now, and Obama might change that.

Clinton getting nominated certainly wouldn't get me to vote Republican (I hope the people who say that will take a closer look at McCain first), but it wouldn't do much to get me to vote Democrat either.

Obama managed to get a lot of the newly-minted voters in the 18-21 range who have never voted before in a presidential election. And this being a rather spoiled generation, they expect to get their way. There's my pet hypothesis.

(Whether Obama's supporters are made up of a relatively large segment of those newly-minted voters [ie, the inverse of the above] or not, I dunno - and it would support my pet hypothesis more if it were true.)

*shrugs* Hillary won't win. I'll vote for her, sure. But mark my words, she can't beat McCain. The conservative men (of the non-neo variety) that might actually be influenced by a well laid out series of words from a black man running for president won't vote for Hillary. Part of it is, yes, that she's a woman, but too much of it is the baggage of her husband. You're talking about a group of people that for the better part of eight years were brainwashed daily by talk radio into thinking Bill Clinton was child molesting murderer, and they simply will have no part in letting the guy get back near the office of the presidency, being he the First Gentleman or whatever. I characterized this as conservative southern white men before, and I still believe there's a case to be made that that particular group is accurately characterize by their ability to cross race lines but not gender lines.

For myself, I want no more of the Republican party at all, ever again, in my life. So, I won't be voting Republican. They abandoned me a long time ago by courting the religious right.

I will vote for Hillary if she's the candidate, but I won't expect much to happen if she is president. The most that would happen, I would think, might be our exit from Iraq. Otherwise, I can't see a whole heck of a lot of difference between Hillary and McCain in the long view. And that might be what the Obama supporters are feeling and being more vocal about it in a way that seems "crazy" to ardent Hillary supporters.

Frankly, from what I can tell, the majority of people just pick someone they like anyway and then proceed to rationalize why they like them. I've never hid the fact that that's what I do. It's how we INFPs function, after all. We base a great deal of our decision making about people based on who we intuitively like. I don't pretend to like Hillary because I don't. I see too much of the old sociopath boss in Hillary to ever "like" her. I'm sure she will be a fine, competent president, but not one that will make things that much different than they are now. I would love to be proved wrong, too.

For the record, I have had many women as managers and bosses, and I absolutely prefer them over men. They try harder and are more organized and more communicative. Nevertheless, that doesn't mean they ALL were. People are people, and you end up with shitty people, male or female, in charge sometime. And unfortunately, the vibe I get from Hillary is "shitty person to work for". Oh well, hopefully she'll be working for US if she wins.

" I haven't yet heard ONE SINGLE Hillary supporter threatening to drop party affiliation like a petulant whiny child if she doesn't win."

Yes, just like:"Where are all the grown ups? I have threatened after the last two elections to divorce myself from this shit and move to Sweden. It’s time to fish or cut bati for me. Life is too short. In this most pivotal time in the planet’s history, our fate is in the hands of these starry-eyed college kids, Volvo driving, latte sipping, white-guilt ridden rich liberals, and uninformed black-for-black’s sake voters. Enough."

"if it not hillary in the race, I do enjoy CA, NJ, NY, and CT become red."

"well…sorry AA men, we just simply don’t give a shit — we’ll take this till the last dog dies. this is important to America, it’s not just about electing a black man.

This is what is has come to folks. The biggest bunch of shit. I really wish I was a witch..I hex that whole bunch of assholes."

"SHE SHOULD SUCK IT UP, PUT HER PRIDE BEHIND HER, AND ROCK OBAMAS WORLD THIS TIME…SHE SHOULD RUN AS THE INDEPENDENT !!!WHY?BECAUSE SHE CAN…AND BECAUSE, ALOT CAN HAPPEN IN A YEAR…AND WHEN THE PEOPLE OF AMERICA GET BUYERS REMORSE, SHE WILL BE HERE TO BACK US UP…

BUT MOST IMPORTANT, THE DEMOCRATIC PARTY MADE A CONCERTED EFFORT TO SWIFTBOAT HER AND STEAL THE ELECTION LIKE NEVER BEFORE, SHE OWES THEM NOTHING…

Well, now I've heard a couple, hand-selected by you out of the Internets. Congratulations?

That's really not the same thing as what I hear from my friends and the people in my environment, though, and if this was a game of "what random opinions can you scrape up from the Internets" I can find a lot crazier than that from even non-anonymous sources.

Hey, they are saying that party affiliation is just another line, man! If you want to cross all lines you can't let a tasty one like that sit there uncrossed... heck, they may vote for McCain even if Obama gets the nomination! :3