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Seriously, any pub which won’t serve a sizable minority which just happens to have the greatest proportion of disposable income will perish due to Darwinian forces anyway. I’m posting this from a pub (escuse the slurred typing) where I’d say half my friends are gay and they’re making a roaring trade.

I don’t think they will Shatterface
There is more than one moron who would drink in that pub if they knew it was a gay free.
Although, god knows what a gay looks like.
How a landlord can make that decision on looks
Lucas’s only gay in the village is a parody.
But as libertarians say it is their choice.
Personally I would take his license away.
Interesting what the brewery says.

This could of course be being spun somewhat. All we have so far is what these people say the landlord said.
What if he had turned down a stag or hen do because he said he didn’t cater to those kind of events? Or turned down a rugby club do because he had a prejudice against rugby type crowds like I have. Or a biker event, or host an Irish Traveller wedding?
Or a meeting of the Young Conservatives.

LGTB Labour?? Sounds awful.

The place where I’m staying is plagued by groups coming over from England and Scotland in large groups. As I sit here there are still some of them coming in drunk and talking crap. But thankfully most of them will be going home today.
The blokes in kilts are the worst.

A landlord has an absolute right to refuse service to whoever he/she likes for whatever reason or none.

And, as someone who has worked in the trade (some time ago mind) I don’t think you would want that to change. For it’s how a landlord can control the crowd. Simply able to say “Oi!, You! Out!”.

No reason needs to be given, so there’s no arguments about whether “the reason is good enough”, no barrack room lawyering.

And yes, the landlord will indeed be backed up by the police if those refused entry/service refuse to leave the premises.

Because the landlord’s right to serve or not serve is absolute.

Now, to go on from that: organise a petition, boycott the place, that’s all absolutely fine and indeed, I would encourage you to do so. I would encourage any and every potential customer of a business to use their power as a potential consumer to argue about and protest the policies of any and every business.

That’s the actual point of market competition: that by your spending pressure you get that mix of goods and services which you desire, just as market competition enables others to do so as well.

But as far as the law is concerned: landlords have the right to refuse service. Full stop.

Damon
What would be the reaction if the pub said no Jews or group of Jews.
Also what is wrong with a memeber of LGTB Labour. Do you know them personally. How can you make judgement about any human being without meeting them first.
I know you would prefer horsey tory crowd but I wouldn’t ban you lot

Tim, what about if that contradicts his breweries policies. He is in breach of contract

“But as far as the law is concerned: landlords have the right to refuse service. Full stop.”
That is not completely true if he refuses on grounds that cannot be justified, the brewery for instance could have an equal opportunities policy and they could be trouble because they are in breach of contract.

“That is not completely true if he refuses on grounds that cannot be justified, the brewery for instance could have an equal opportunities policy and they could be trouble because they are in breach of contract.”

Sure, we could get all sorts of complications like that. And if there is such an equal opportunites policy and the landlord is thus in breach of contract, fine. But that’s a civil matter, not a criminal one. The brewery takes the landlord to court over it, not the police come along and force the landlord to serve whoever he doesn’t want to.

It is still true that any landlord, standing in the premises which they are the licenced landlord of, can bar anyone and any group they wish with no reasons given whatsoever.

Tim, it appears (based on the facts as reported) that the problem is that he *did* give a reason, and the reason given was that the group were gay – iirc it is illegal to discriminate in the provision of services on the basis of sexuality.

I just said that LGTB Labour sounds awful.
But I’m only guessing. And the prejudice is mostly against them having ”Labour” as part of their group identity.

Of course you can’t go discriminating against people too much, but I can imagine all kinds of groups or names of potential groups that I might not like the sound of.
How would you like to spend an evening in London with the Shankill Road Rangers Supporters Club over for the weekend?
Or take a booking from some group calling itself ”Friends of Greater Croatia” or something?

And while not being a fan of horsey Tory types at all, they have a right to their way of life IMO and don’t deserve all the scorn they get from some snide commentators on the left.
How about if the landlord had turned down a booking from the Countryside Alliance?

My days as a licensee are also long ago, but we were always taught not to give a reason when refusing to serve someone. If you do you’re liable to accusation of slander etc.

However surely various English laws such as the Race Relations Act do protect certain groups on provision of services? You can’t discriminate explicitly or systematically against individuals of these groups (B&B owners beware).

Having said that, we don’t really know what happened and context is all. The landlord may just have been making a particularly inept joke.

@17, yes, correct. Tim’s right that any landlord can refuse to serve you because he doesn’t like your face. But you’re right that if the person refused service can show a court that the landlord refused to serve him specifically because he was black, then the landlord is breaching the assorted race relations acts.

In this context, complaining to the pub and asking them to confirm their policy would have been fair enough. Calling the cops is a pathetic, petulant and generally asshole-ish strategy, and everyone involved in, or endorsing, doing so should be shunned and generally loathed.

Damon I didn’t say i would ban horsey tory types. So now you want to ban everyone who votes Labour from public houses
Delightful little Pinochet character are you not.
I would not ban anyone from my pub, if I owned one, that includes gays, country side alliance,” want to wear ill fitting England tops society”or the Morris dancers for Israel.
I would only kick them out if they were too noisy or they were kicking off.
Little right bigots like yourself who want pubs for white racist tory males only not me.
I believe in a variety of human beings to exit on the planet and the freedom to have a pint where they want to.

There is more than a slight possibility that this has been over-egged and misreported as it would be stupid for a Westminster publican to say such a thing to a bunch of political LGBTers. That pub is packed every weekday evening with after work office workers, many of whom are presumably gay … and I’m sure it’s never an issue.

That they are a LGBT political group, maybe they see homophobia everywhere and sometimes where it doesn’t exist. (I did say maybe) … it certainly can get like that with people feeling that they’ve been offended when the ”prejudice” might have been for a slightly different reason.

Outrage is a gay rights group with a political agenda.
The Terrence Higgins Trust is health charity that also has a political agenda.
To have some reservations about their politics and modus operandi does not automatically make one a homophobe (Nick Cohen).

Nick Cohen, that doesnt make me Pinochet like, it’s just a difference of opinion.
And I think it’s perfectly fair to not allow large groups of people into your pub.
Thankfully the stag tour from Scotland (all weraring the same black T shirts and their names and a nunber on them) have all left my guesthouse now …still drinking from cans as they checked out at 11 am.
They were loud and a pain, but not as bad as the group of lads up from Dublin.
They were a nighmare and I would have immediately left any pub they had come into last night.

the manager or licencee has the right to refuse service to whom they see could cause trouble or affend others in any way that is a fact!! but to blame punch as a whole group is disgracefull! this was one managers choice (probally for the right reason) and nothing to do with punch or any of its other employees. i think the group that started trouble in the pub should be revaluating the way they conduct these boycott schemes and stop looking for a scapegoat!!!

– Licensees have the right to refuse service to anyone without stating a reason, provided they do not break discrimination laws. If the manager refused to serve the group becuase they were LBGT (which is what is alleged) he would be acting illegally

– where did you get the idea that the group “started trouble in the pub”?!

– the manager is an employee of Punch, so there is nothing disgraceful about blaming Punch for failing to train him properly

Damon
If the group were acting like arseholes then the landlord should remove them. If they were just removed because they were just gay then I am sorry you ARE wrong. I do doubt that the landlord would remove a posse of hoorah henries because of the ,money involved and the political affiliation of the group.
Also the landlord was happy too have groups in the pub becuase he took the booking, the only reason he kicked them out, was because he found out they were gay.
Damon just because you don’t like to be pub full of gays or labour voters that is your BIG problem

Nick Cohen, I might have been in more gay pubs that you. I’ve been to qite a lot.
So there’s no need to put me in the camp of haveing gay prejudices.
Maybe the landlord is a coplete idiot who doesn’t mind the kind of reaction he is surely getting. If so then maybe he would rather this bit of notoriety than serve gays in his pub.

But I would like to hear a reply from the landlord before condemning him.
And I don’t mind labour voters in the slightest. Labour party members is another thing.

The pub is in a perfect place for some early evening demonstrations outside, and marching up and down with placards and inviting the local BBC crew down to film it.

“The growth of Islam in Europe has consequences for gay men. But you wouldn’t know it from a cursory perusal of the issues which preoccupy at any one time what is known as the “gay community”. Civil partnerships, gay adoption or problems with Christian bed-and-breakfast owners and the allegedly latent homophobia of the Conservatives are all up there on the list. But, with a few honorable exceptions, such as the consistently principled activist Peter Tatchell, few voices are raised about the possible future problems for gay men in a rapidly changing demographic landscape.

There was relatively little protest from the complacent mainstream metropolitan gay community when, as Mayor of London, Ken Livingstone invited to the capital the Islamic cleric Yusuf al-Qaradawi, a fundamentalist who supports the right of Islamic states to execute gays.”

Peter Whittle writes some excellent articles and his analysis is perfectly valid and based on his own experience. Throwing around the usual default left position of neo con everytime the left are presented with a factual narrative that does not fit their world view is a really poor response, Sunny.

Whittle’s views are as valid as anyone elses and he has important points to make

Nick Cohen, I might have been in more gay pubs that you. I’ve been to qite a lot.
So there’s no need to put me in the camp of haveing gay prejudices.
We only have your word for that

Maybe the landlord is a coplete idiot who doesn’t mind the kind of reaction he is surely getting. If so then maybe he would rather this bit of notoriety than serve gays in his pub.
You think this is a good thing.

But I would like to hear a reply from the landlord before condemning him.
And I don’t mind labour voters in the slightest. Labour party members is another thing.
So you don’t like Labour party members. Only Rightists for you eh Damian

The pub is in a perfect place for some early evening demonstrations outside, and marching up and down with placards and inviting the local BBC crew down to film it.
Oh dear upset are we that you can’t get your Tory placards out .

“The growth of Islam in Europe has consequences for gay men. But you wouldn’t know it from a cursory perusal of the issues which preoccupy at any one time what is known as the “gay community”. Civil partnerships, gay adoption or problems with Christian bed-and-breakfast owners and the allegedly latent homophobia of the Conservatives are all up there on the list. But, with a few honorable exceptions, such as the consistently principled activist Peter Tatchell, few voices are raised about the possible future problems for gay men in a rapidly changing demographic landscape.

Lets see Plain Tory
1. Who supported the Islamists in the 80’s. You lot
2. Who supported Islamist fundamentalist regimes like Saudi Arabia and Zia’s Pakistan

There was relatively little protest from the complacent mainstream metropolitan gay community when, as Mayor of London, Ken Livingstone invited to the capital the Islamic cleric Yusuf al-Qaradawi, a fundamentalist who supports the right of Islamic states to execute gays.
So when Mrs Thatcher inivited Islamic terrorists and despots to number 10 that was different.

Throwing around the usual default left position of neo con everytime the left are presented with a factual narrative that does not fit their world view is a really poor response, Sunny.Whittle’s views are as valid as anyone elses and he has important points to make.

Also the right’s default position of defending a bigoted landlord.
As for Standpoint , it is magazine for the extreme right, written by wankers like my disgusting moniker.
What I despise about the Standpoint contributers is their complete lack of honesty.
Cohen presents himself as a social deomocrat and yet he is neo liberal economically and neo conservative on every issue.
Dishonety is the name of the game. A little like yourself
By the way plain wanker.
1. Do you think the landlord was right to ban a group just because they were gay

1. Do you think the landlord was right to ban a group just because they were gay”

Errr…..No. Ignorant and bad for business.

However, I fail to see how people can go into moral hysterics over this when there are Islamic extremists in Britain saying the most revolting things about gay people. Hysterics over an ignorant pub landlord is not my forte.

If there was nothing else to worry about other than an ignorant pub landlord, I might even begin to be interested, but watching Islamic extremists spout their bile whilst the “left” get excited over ignorant customer service in a pub, shows a degree of hypocrisy that is truly breath taking.

Just for your reference the article was by Peter Whittle, not Nick Cohen. Peter Whittle is gay, is he now “homophobic” too for highlighting serious threat’s to the safety of gay men or is a threat only serious when its a rude pub landlord?.

Standing outside with placards saying ”This pub refuses to serve gay people”.
The management would be mortified. It’s not like some back street pub in Stoke on Trent.
Or the Staduim Bar on Belfast’s Shankill road (where they might be told to clear off too).

It’s about the (famous) Coleherne Arms in London’s Earls Court, which has been more than just any old gay pub, but one with a particularly flamboyant clientele for as long as I can remember.http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Coleherne_pub

It changed it’s name and rebranded itself as a gastro pub, but the same customers kept turning up. (As I sure that many felt it was their pub and to hell with this refurbishment and rebranding).

Is that an open and shut case as much as the story about the Greencoat Boy at first seemed to be? I’m not sure.

Who might it justifibably be legit to not want coming into your bar?
The BNP obviously. What about the SWP? Would it be legitimate not to want to let out a function room for one of their meetings? Anything to do with British ”occupation” of Northen Ireland might make some landlords a bit nervous.

However, I fail to see how people can go into moral hysterics over this when there are Islamic extremists in Britain saying the most revolting things about gay people. Hysterics over an ignorant pub landlord is not my forte.

If there was nothing else to worry about other than an ignorant pub landlord, I might even begin to be interested, but watching Islamic extremists spout their bile whilst the “left” get excited over ignorant customer service in a pub, shows a degree of hypocrisy that is truly breath taking
Obviously yoiu don’t read the articles from outrage and Terrence higgins or amnesty about Islamic outrages towards gays.
Selective hearing.
Also you haven’t answered my questions about your heroine Maggie and Islamists in the 80’s.
Lets have some plain speaking.
Also their not going into hysterics, they just think is wrong and illegal. For instance what race was the landlord. He might be islamic. Do you know.

“Also their not going into hysterics, they just think is wrong and illegal. For instance what race was the landlord. He might be islamic. Do you know.”

I would have thought an Islamic pub landlord highly unlikely to be honest, although it would have been amusing to see what the LC party line would be in that situation.

I’m finding it difficult to belive that the guy has broken any laws, do I really live in a country where refusing to serve drinks to gay people is a criminal offence, but forcing smokers to stand out in the rain is legally enforceable ? A pub is a private business, it’s nor for the state to decide who they serve. If you don’t like it then go to another pub.

Pretty this case would be covered by the Sexual Orientation Regulations 2007, a good overview of which is here. Nothing about pubs in the “exceptions” bit, except for private members clubs with fewer than 25 members.

LGBT Labour is looking for the company to treat the event with the up most seriousness and take action to remedy the situation. We look forward to their suggestions on how they make amends and take a stand. We have some starting ideas of our own:

* An apology to LGBT Labour from Greencoat Boy Manager and Punch Taverns Chief Executive.
* An apology to the other staff working in the Greencoat Boy for being asked to not serve gay, lesbian, bisexual and trans people
* Investigate the Greencoat Boy Manager under internal discipline procedures
* Company training for managers of the chain of pubs on equality issues that includes the information on the Equally Bill (Sexual Orientation) Regulations 2007 and good practice on dealing with lgbt customers and homophobic issues.
* A refund
* A rainbow flag put up outside the pub on Pride Day, a “Lesbian, Gay, Bisexual and Trans people welcome here” sign displayed prominently on arrive for at least 28 days and a complementary event with an LGBT group of their choice.

We look forward to a meeting with senior people in the company and a speedy resolution to this issue.

http://www.lgbtlabour.org.uk/
So they are a pushy political group (and fair enough for being that).
It was a banner that the manager had origionally balked at. A political banner.

He’s still an idiot if he really did get into a row with them over it, but it strikes me that they might be the kind of people who love to get into rows like this – as confrontation and landmark cases are what brings about progress. (The Gaza convoy people seem to have had the same idea).

It certainly is one way of bringing about progress I agree. But this style of politics isn’t really my cup of tea completely. I will conceed that it’s effective, but their is something about the hectoring style that I have never liked.

It certainly is one way of bringing about progress I agree. But this style of politics isn’t really my cup of tea completely. I will conceed that it’s effective, but their is something about the hectoring style that I have never liked.

Unless it is a right wing lorry driver blocking oil tankers or protestors against Mugabe
Supporting any political agitation always depends which side of the political spectrum your views agree with.
Personally I prefer non violence agitation to mind numbing political apathy. In which people are more concerned about a orange dance group than their rights

Nick Cohen, have a listen to this chap Simon Fanshawe for a couple of minutes.
He’s a gay man, and guess what?… he’s got a mind of his own and doesn’t necessarily sing from the right on songsheet. I was sitting just in front of him when he was talking at that event.http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PbMA_KBo4MQ

Would you start calling him ‘Pinochet like’ and infering he was like some ”right wing lorry driver blocking oil tankers” ..?.. which I must say (as a lorry driver myself) sounds awfully elitist and anti-working class.

Nick Cohen, this is meant to be a political site where some of the subtleties of diference of liberal opinion can be worked out (I think), so charging in Sally like, and calling anyone you have a difference of opinion with ”trolls” and such, sort of defeats the object.
Look, here is Peter Tatchell for gods sake, disagreeing with some aspects of mainstream gay thinking.

Homosexuality: it isn’t natural
Ignore those researchers who claim to have discovered a ‘gay gene’, says Peter Tatchell: gay desire is not genetically determined.

Although the pubco who own this pub have suspended the member of staff involved , I suggest that anyone with a modicum of decency will help to right this by refusing to drink in any establishment owned by PUNCH TAVERNS until the person is dismissed . As far as I know , as someone who has been involved in the Pub trade for most of my 53 years , sexuality is NOT a reason to refuse service .