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Re: Fay: Rolen wants to play - do you want him back?

Originally Posted by Kc61

We just don't agree on this. I don't see Rolen as viable insurance for injuries, he's so often hurt himself. If Frazier has to move to a different position, I'm comfortable with Hannahan playing third most days. He's a superb fielder and can hit righties passably.

The team finally has some lefty-righty balance. All positions are covered, with backups, assuming they resolve the Donald-Izturis thing.

It's time to move on. The Reds don't need three thirdbasemen. They don't need Frazier playing super utility, it's time for him to stick at third.

And there's no substitute for Heisey - with or without Rolen - Chris is the only bona fide CFer on the ballclub. His replacement, if injured, will come from the minors.

So we just don't agree on this, but ultimately I think the sticking point will not be any of these factors. It will likely be money.

I don't think Rolen on the roster impacts Heisey as the back-up in CF. But having Rolen/Hannahan as the back-up with Frazier moving to the OF is a better option should Ludwick or Bruce go down. If everybody stays healthy, the difference between having Rolen or Paul on the bench probably doesn't move the needle that much as far as how many games the Reds win. The Red's simply need to be able to deal with injury. We only have to look at last season when Votto was out for an extended period to see that having both Frazier and Rolen on the roster largely helped the Reds to win 97 games in spite of losing the best hitter in baseball for an extended period.

A Rolen/Hannahan platoon would probably be a good enough to start and be relatively productive in the 6 hole on a lot of team's in baseball. It woud add a depth element that would help the Reds withstand a long term loss to one of the middle of the order bats that simply doesn't exist now. Remember, a long term loss of Frazier or Votto means the RH PAs at 3B will go to Jason Donald (or worse yet, Hannahan will be in there against LHP). I don't see that same scenario in the OF with Paul. Even if Rolen retires and one of the OF goes, down, I just don't see Paul being in the mix for increased PT. Heisey or maybe Hamilton will play CF and Choo will move to a corner. Personally, I think that would leave the middle of the order a little light and Hamilton needs to prove himself at AAA before he's penciled into the plan. Heisey is going to get 250 to 300 PAs spotting in as it is now. I don't really want to see him getting another 125 or so PAs if one of the corner guys goes down and I certainly don't want those PAs going to Donald.

For me, I want Rolen because its pretty simple. Everybody stays healthy, it doesn't really matter. One of the corner guys goes down, Rolen/Hannahan is the best insurance policy.

Last edited by mth123; 02-01-2013 at 03:08 AM.

"All I can tell them is pick a good one and sock it." --BABE RUTH

Having better players makes "the right time" or "the big hit" happen a lot more often. PLUS PLUS

Re: Fay: Rolen wants to play - do you want him back?

Originally Posted by lollipopcurve

plus, I'm sympathetic to great players going out more or less on their own terms -- I don't think Rolen would demand playing time unreasonably

I am more sympathetic to my fav team having all 25 spots on the roster filled to maximum capacity. Rolen has made millions of dollars playing this game. Rolen has been a great teammate since joining our fav team. He is and has been an injury risk. Time to move forward.

Re: Fay: Rolen wants to play - do you want him back?

I am more sympathetic to my fav team having all 25 spots on the roster filled to maximum capacity. Rolen has made millions of dollars playing this game. Rolen has been a great teammate since joining our fav team. He is and has been an injury risk. Time to move forward.

I agree -- you want the best team you can get. I think it's possible that carrying Rolen will improve the bench -- they have said Hannahan can back up SS, in which case Rolen would replace Izturis or Donald. That could work.

At the very least, having him in spring training offers valuable insurance in case a player goes down.

"Baseball is a very, very complex business. It's more of a people business than most businesses." - Bob Castellini

Re: Fay: Rolen wants to play - do you want him back?

Not convinced that Paul will repeat his performance from last year. Hope he will but dudes with limited ABs are difficult to project. Also wonder how Frazier will do playing most days - again hope he continues to progress but we've seen great starts fade. Having said that, roster balance is important and determining spots is also about risk management. If Rolen comes back, I see that as a hedge against Frazier flaming out.

Likes:

Re: Fay: Rolen wants to play - do you want him back?

Originally Posted by Gary Redus

Not convinced that Paul will repeat his performance from last year. Hope he will but dudes with limited ABs are difficult to project. Also wonder how Frazier will do playing most days - again hope he continues to progress but we've seen great starts fade. Having said that, roster balance is important and determining spots is also about risk management. If Rolen comes back, I see that as a hedge against Frazier flaming out.

However, I would be leary of the Dusty effect. Frazier having a tough couple of weeks and Dusty decides "the kid can't cut it," so he puts Rolen back in fulltime.

...the 2-2 to Woodsen and here it comes...and it is swung on and missed! And Tom Browning has pitched a perfect game! Twenty-seven outs in a row, and he is being mobbed by his teammates, just to the thirdbase side of the mound.

Re: Fay: Rolen wants to play - do you want him back?

However, I would be leary of the Dusty effect. Frazier having a tough couple of weeks and Dusty decides "the kid can't cut it," so he puts Rolen back in fulltime.

I'm not too worried about that.
1. Dusty is a man of his word. He said the job is Fraziers.
2. Rolen's health is going to limit his playing time. Rolen and Dusty know that.

As much as I appreciate what Paul did last year, there's nothing much in his history that says he's a good bet to do it again (Could go either way).
Another option is that Hannaran might be competent enough to start one game at SS every 2 weeks to give Cozart a rest. If a SS injury happens, they have Isturius at AAA. I'm not sure they could sneak the Donald through waivers at put him at AAA, but I'm guessing there's a chance.

I agree with mth that Frasier's versatility (and adding Hannaran as a LH bench bat) makes fitting Rolen in a possiblity.
I would normally be open to carrying only 11 pitchers, but the Reds actually have too many pitchers to keep... with Chapman on some kind of stretching out program, they'll probably keep Leake too and effectively have 6 starters.
Therefore, I think they need 12 pitchers.

Thank you Walt and Bob for going for it in 2010-2014!

Nov. 13, 2007: One of the greatest days in Reds history: John Allen gets the boot!

Re: Fay: Rolen wants to play - do you want him back?

There is a real danger in letting a career AAAA player with a small sample hot streak becoming Plan A. This is a team trying to win and the Reds with Paul and Simon could go the route of bypassing better payers like Rolen and Hoover in favor of them.

Jon Nunnally anyone? Chris Stynes? Luke Hudson?

"All I can tell them is pick a good one and sock it." --BABE RUTH

Having better players makes "the right time" or "the big hit" happen a lot more often. PLUS PLUS

Re: Fay: Rolen wants to play - do you want him back?

Sorry if this has been answered elsewhere but does Hoover have options? I assume Paul would have to be passed through waivers because I think the Reds picked him off waivers last year.

In that case Plan A may not lead to losing Hoover, but it should be noted if Paul would have to go through waivers. If he passed through, i'd imagine he'd be open to signing with the Reds anyway because i can't imagine anyone else would look like a more inviting option unless they sign him to a major league contract.

When people say that I donít know what Iím talking about when it comes to sports or writing, I think: Man, you should see me in the rest of my life.
---Joe Posnanski

Re: Fay: Rolen wants to play - do you want him back?

Sorry if this has been answered elsewhere but does Hoover have options? I assume Paul would have to be passed through waivers because I think the Reds picked him off waivers last year.

In that case Plan A may not lead to losing Hoover, but it should be noted if Paul would have to go through waivers. If he passed through, i'd imagine he'd be open to signing with the Reds anyway because i can't imagine anyone else would look like a more inviting option unless they sign him to a major league contract.

Offer him the DL with a wink at the end of spring. Major league money, service time towards the pension plan and a rehab to keep sharp and something will open up. I don't think the roster problem is really that much of a problem. I really can't envision a scenario short of a plane crash with half the team on board where Paul will be more than a bit player. His main selling point is that he's a lefty, but if the Reds need to go to a 26th man its likely that Hamilton or H-Rod would be the guy if Paul leaves town and both are switch hitters with more to offer in terms of defense, position and speed. Rolen offers a better answer under many scenarios that could occur (and did in 2012). I just can't see the argument for Paul over Rolen. Even in his waning years, Rolen is a better player.

Last edited by mth123; 02-01-2013 at 02:16 PM.

"All I can tell them is pick a good one and sock it." --BABE RUTH

Having better players makes "the right time" or "the big hit" happen a lot more often. PLUS PLUS

Re: Fay: Rolen wants to play - do you want him back?

As a bench guy and supposed lidr, I can't say I'm 100% on Rolen. I just don't know that Paul is the reason not to give Scott another shot. At the very least, I think Rolen can be a good PH vs LHP and occasionally get some starts to spell Frazier.

IMO, while none of these guys is a world beater, the structure of this bench is excellent. Gives lefty/righty balance. Covers all the positions. No overload at any one position, good defensive balance.

On top of this, while I prefer Todd Frazier to stick at third, his defensive versatility rounds things out very nicely and provides additional flexibility.

It's a team game, and I think this group really fills out the team well. The scenario being posited for Rolen - major injury, Frazier moves off third, Hannahan needs a platoon partner, is just not a compelling reason to take on the injury plagued Rolen.

I'd stick with the current group, keeping an eye open if a better middle infielder shows up someplace. That is the potentially weak area.

Re: Fay: Rolen wants to play

I've heard quite a few people mention Rolen as a potential coach and eventual manager.

This from from a Fay chat on the Enquirer site in mid January on that subject:

He doesn't want to coach. As he said, "you won't see me swinging a fungo for a living.".

I was not aware of this quote and it changes the way I view the situation dramatically.

In a thread on the Deck, I talked about Rolen's leadership being in the elite category, but I had a concern that his leadership may depend on his self-image as a successful ballplayer. This fungos quote confirms that to me.

If you have a great "charge the hill" type leader under a calm, unflappable stay the course type manager like Baker, younger and/or leadable players will over-achieve, like in 2010. (This is the leadership model militaries have often used... the fiery Sergeant and the calm, collected Commander). However, if that charge the hill clubhouse leader loses the skills that give him his confidence and gusto, his own frustration/depression can spread like wildfire to the impressionable, even if he is seldom playing.

This caused me to look into last year closer. Rolen's first three monthly OPS's were .579, .427 & .590. After Votto was injured, Rolen stepped up and OPSd .922 and .925 in July and August. Once Votto returned his OPS plummeted to .545 in September.

Prior to this, I thought, like everyone else, this huge swing was caused by health issues. Now I wonder. I wonder if the older, more broken down Scott is the type who can only elevate his game when it falls on him to lead others...

I am starting to think that Rolen as a back-up is a .550 OPS player... Scott maybe just can't be a #2... (he said he would never be a coach, but I am guessing he could see himself as a manager.) Worse, I am concerned that if Rolen gets frustrated and/or depressed based on his lack of ability and opportunity to perform, this will affect other players in the clubhouse. Votto, great player that he is, is too emotionally vulnerable to avoid being affected by watching his mentor mentally fall apart before his eyes.

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