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I need to take a moment here to talk about the Men’s Rights Movement, because there seems to be some confusion. Actually, there seems to be a whole lot of confusion.

Over the past little while, I’ve had a number of people challenge me on calling out men’s rights activists (hereafter referred to as MRAs). “But men are oppressed too,” people say. “Feminism is sexist, and it teaches men that masculinity is wrong.” “Straight, white men aren’t allowed to be proud of themselves anymore.” “If you believe in equality, then you should want men to have the same type of activism as women.” “Everyone is entitled to their opinion.”

First of all, yes, everyone is entitled to their opinion. But let’s not pretend that all opinions are created equal – some are based on fact, and some are total bullshit. Like, I could tell you that I believe that vaccines cause autism, and that would be my opinion, but it would also be demonstrably untrue. So let’s not pretend that all opinions should be given the same consideration, because we both know better than that.

Second of all, let’s get one thing straight: men, as a group, do not face systematic oppression because of their gender. Am I saying that literally no men out there are oppressed? No, I am for sure not saying that. Men can and do face oppression and marginalization for many reasons – because of race, class, sexuality, poverty, to name a few. Am I saying that every white cishet dude out there has an amazing life because of all his amassed privilege? Nope, I’m not saying that either. There are many circumstances that might lead to someone living a difficult life. But men do not face oppression because they are men. Misandry is not actually a thing, and pretending that it’s an oppressive force on par with or worse than misogyny is offensive, gross, and intellectually dishonest.

MRAs believe that feminists are to blame for basically everything that’s wrong with their lives. The Men’s Rights Movement is a reactionary movement created specifically to counter feminism, and most (if not all) of their time and resources go towards silencing and marginalizing women. They do things like starting the Don’t Be That Girl campaign, a campaign that accuses women of making false rape reports. They attend feminist events in order to bully and intimidate women, they flood online feminist spaces with threatening messages, and they regularly use smear campaigns and scare tactics to make the women who don’t back down afraid for their physical safety. They do literally nothing to actually resolve the problems that they claim to care about, and instead do everything they can to discredit the feminist movement.

There are certainly issues that disproportionately affect men – the suicide rate among men is higher, as is the rate of homelessness. Men are more likely to be injured or killed on the job or because of violence. Men who are the victims of domestic abuse or sexual assault are less likely to report these things. These are the issues that MRAs are purportedly working on, and by “working on” I mean “blaming feminism for.” The problem is that none of these things are caused by feminism, or equal rights for women, or anything like that. You know what’s actually to blame for a lot of these issues? Marginalizing forces like class and race, for one thing – I mean, it’s not rich white men who are grappling with homelessness or dangerous workplaces or gun violence. You know what else is to blame? Our patriarchal culture and its strictly enforced gender roles which, hey, happens to be exactly the same power structure that feminism is trying to take down. The patriarchy has some fucked up ideas about masculinity, ideas that make men less likely to seek help for issues that they perceive to be too feminine – such as being hurt or raped by a female partner, not being able to provide for themselves, or not seeking help for health issues like depression and anxiety. On a societal level, it means that resources are not as readily available for men who face these challenges, because patriarchal ideas tell our courts, our governments and our charitable organizations that men don’t ever need that kind of help. Yes, the patriarchy overwhelmingly privileges the interests of men, but it also hurts men. It hurts men in all the ways that MRAs are apparently so concerned about, which means that you would think that MRAs would be totally on board with dismantling the patriarchy, but they’re not. Instead, they would rather blame women for their problems.

See, the problem with the Men’s Rights Movement is that they are not doing anything concrete to resolve any of the above issues. They are not raising money to open shelters for homeless or abused men. They are not starting up suicide hotlines for men. They are not lobbying for safer workplaces or gun control. Instead, they are crying about feminism, pooh-poohing the idea of patriarchy and generally making the world a sadder, scarier, less safe place to live in. In fact, I would argue that their stupid antics are actually a detriment t0 the causes that they claim to espouse, because they’re creating an association between actual real issuesthat men face and their disgusting buffoonery. So good fucking job, MRAs. Way to fuck vulnerable men over in your quest to prove that feminism is evil. I hope you’re all really proud of yourselves.

The Men’s Rights Movement is not “feminism for men.” It’s not some kind of complimentary activism meant to help promote equal treatment of men and women. And it fucking most certainly is not friendly towards women, unless we’re talking about women with crippling cases of internalized misogyny. I believe in equality for men and women, but I also believe that we’re not born with an even playing field. Women still face disenfranchisement, discrimination and a lack of basic freedoms and rights, and although feminism has done a lot of great work over the last century or so, we still haven’t undone several millennia’s worth of social programming and oppression. So that’s why it’s not “men’s turn” to have a social justice movement. That’s why we have the fem in feminism. That’s why fairness and equality involve promoting the empowerment of women, rather than promoting the empowerment of both genders in equal amounts. Because, to use a stupid analogy here, if one person starts out with no apples and another person starts out with five apples and then you give them both three apples each in the name of fairness, one person still has five more fucking apples.

So yes, let’s talk about issues that affect men. Let’s come up with solutions for problems that disproportionately hurt men, like suicide and homelessness and violent deaths (while at the same time recognizing that the fact that there are issues that affect more men than women does not mean that men are oppressed because of their gender). Let’s work on opening up shelters for abused men, let’s create campaigns bringing awareness to the fact that men are also the victims of rape, and let’s pressure the government to improve workplace safety. But let’s find a way to do this that’s not at the expense of women. Instead, let’s join together and fuck up the patriarchy real good, because that way everyone wins.

p.s. If you actually think that straight white men aren’t encouraged to be “proud” of themselves you need to check your privilege a million times over and then check it some more because seriously

718 Responses to “Why The Men’s Rights Movement Is Garbage”

Curious to know your thoughts on the recent headline, Transgender woman who works at Twitter charged with felony counts of rape, her estranged (female) spouse. There is SO much intersectionality here and so much to address. I’m shocked at the fact that the loudest voices talking about this story on social media are from the anti-trans folks and religious right.
See http://www.dailydot.com/crime/dana-mccallum-charged-rape-twitter//
and

Yeah, I’ve read about it. I’ve been a bit hesitant to write anything because I’m friends with the estranged wife. So I worry that I would be too biased? But I probably should write something, because most of what’s coming out is terrible and major news organizations seem to be ignoring it.

sounds like you just described FEMINISM. when are women going to take off their princess crowns and grow up? there is no difference between a woman and a child (mentally) does man always have to hold your hands? reason and accountability is what sets humans and animals apart and women have neither of those. I believe in equality but to say that basically men shouldn’t have to fight for rights they deserve is just makes you sound just like an “mra” member.

Bellejarblog
I am a man and I read your article and my opinion is, well done.

MRAs are counter productive to gender reform and not contributing much. Women and feminism is to be blamed for all this freedoms and strides to peace we are experiencing. I have more rights as a man so that I can thank feminist for and not MRAs, The more power women have in a society the better that society functions on all levels. That has been proven. I understand that men feel threatened by it as women gain more and more power every day. However its something to celebrate and not fear. The nitty gritty things MRAs complain about should never stand in the way the world develop and empower women and often MRA data is incorrect in anyway. MRAs are luckily not a strong force compared to feminism but they seem to make much damage.

Lucky I also see more and more men support the feminist movement. I think the way the world is unconditionally committed to empower women is great and MRAs is just another obstacle for feminism to overcome, If feminism overcame a male dominated world, with its tradition and religions from an oppressed minority, then surely MRAs will not stand much of a change now that feminism is on the role.

I feel its time more than ever for women to unite and stand together and to stand together and fight for the empowerment of women and put an end to MRAs, Women can do it.

Its also men’s role now to discourage MRAs and to put their support behind women and feminist groups to continue accelerating in acceptance, size and strength.

We cannot let development of a better world be held back by a small group of male egos and men who refuse to look up at a woman.

a man cannot say he loves a woman unless he wants to see he empowered.

In my opinion governments and institutions must ban MRAs categorically.

Feminist are capable enough to handle the rights of both men and women without a problem. Its not that MRAs don’t contribute, they are also counter productive, they are destructive actually.

Men should also get into these groups and remind them about the advantages they as men enjoy because of the feminist movement.

Women should not stand back, they must dive in and stand up for feminism. I and millions of men back you, that’s more than what the first feminists had. So you can do it.

This is truly one of the most ignorant things I have ever read in my life. Of course men are discriminated against. our court system still favors women over men consistently. Besides the obvious glaring examples of child custody and other items involved in divorce proceedings there are the criminal matters. Take for example all these schoolteachers raping their students, if your an attractive female you might get probation,but if your a male no matter how attractive you are if convicted your getting prison time.
Then there is employment,if your a white guy you better damn well hope there isn’t a woman or other minority applying for the job,no matter if you are the most qualified applicant. Additionally men are expected to carry out the heavy lifting for women in manual labor jobs even though there is “equal”pay. There is the fact most employer will look down upon males who take maternity leave as well. Male unemployment rates are higher than that of females. Men also work longer hours than females which account for any “pay gap” Fact is men average over 40 hrs a week while females work less than 40 hrs a week on average. additionally the hours worked by women varies have a much higher range compared to mens.
Then there is education,same thing,there are once again other less qualified (GPA) minorities attended as well as receiving scholarships. What do you think would ever happen if there was a scholarship just for men or even better how about one exclusively for just white males?
Of course there is social discrimination as well, if you are a male and stay at home and take care of your children while your female spouse is the wage earner in the family you’re considered worthless and lazy,while women who do so are just classified as a tradition mother or a stay at home mom. Silence is another area of discrimination against men. Violence against men isn’t doesn’t carry the same stigma as violence against women(“you don’t hit girls”) Not to mention Homosexual males are discriminated against much more than Homosexual females. being a lesbian is far more accepted than being a gay man
Military service is another example that sticks out. While men are forced to register for the selective service and may be forced to unwilling serve in the military ,while women are exempted from registering solely on the basis of their gender. Women make up about 15% of the military but account for only less than 3% of the casualties(and I am positive thats not because of superior combat skills), Women don’t have to follow the same standard as men for haircuts in boot-camp.
For god sakes even on a sinking ship at sea men are discriminated against the old adage “women and children first” comes to mind,It might as well be phrased everybody but males first.

So your statement “: men, as a group, do not face systematic oppression because of their gender. ” is complete “bullshit” as they in fact do.
To explain this to you you need to first actually know what “systematic discrimination” actually is seeing how you obviously don’t know

from the federal government:
Systemic discrimination involves a pattern or practice, policy, or class case where the alleged discrimination has a broad impact on an industry, profession, company or geographic area.
From Websters dictionary
nondiscrimination
noun \dis-ˌkri-mə-ˈnā-shən\

: the practice of unfairly treating a person or group of people differently from other people or groups of people.

So you can use the example of the military regulations or affirmative action and Manny more. They do in fact unfairly target men for different and unfair treatment through the use of a system. White Males are collectively “systematically discriminated against by just about every minority right groups created.

The ONLY valid point in this piece of shit blog is the fact that mens right groups are not doing enough about some of the other issues that disproportionately affect men. but most of the issues you bring up that face men stem from the issues that they are fighting for (And yes some of them are fighting for “male gay rights” in addition to ones you don’t seem to approve of.

To summarize:
There are many examples of systematic discrimination against males ,white male,(insert any) males.
Minority rights groups have overreached and provide minorities with the same benefits that white males enjoy without requiring them to do the same amount of work or create the same value.(If you want equal pay get off your asses and put the hours in and preform the same job unassisted)
Fact of the matter is people are not all equal and how they get treated should depend on what they actually bring to the table,not because of their gender ,skin color or any other attribute unrelated I mean really whats next an equal rights group for dumb people who want to be brain surgeons?

I could go on but if you don’t get it by now, you never will. Each and every individual deserves to be treated by their actions, whether its aptitude or ethic. When we try to treat everyone equally irregardless of their actions we as a nation suffer as a whole. When we blindly require quotas of any minority group it devalues the accomplishments of people who are chosen based on the social group to which they belong rather than their qualifications, thus rendering affirmative action counterproductive by providing no incentive for accomplishment.

I guess your title is also correct ,but unfortunately the mere existence of other rights groups make men’s rights group necessary. Get the fuck rid of all of the groups and start treating people based on merit instead of all the other bullshit.

MY RANT(don’t read if easily offended by profanity)

Fuck you people that want to keep getting shit handed to you when we (white males) actually have to work for it The US is going down the tubes financially because of you assholes, When your lazy incompetent asses are sitting at a job preformed better by someone more qualified than you the whole system gets fucked up. You breed poor work ethic inspire incompetence in others and just make products and service produced in the US overpriced and unaffordable. If we were back when the country was being built it would have never gotten done with the fucked up laws and lawsuits from E.O. groups today.

Women participate in this world, but it is not by building the cities, the infrastructure, developing the energy supplies, discovering the science, or the technologies. They participate by pushing men to their limits to please them.
Women do not have a clearer picture of reality, of ethics, of themselves even; the women’s movement has the single desire to promote the unclear and often irrational needs and wants of women, and to vilify men for accomplishing what women seem unable to do for themselves.
Men grow tired of jumping through hoops and performing tricks to amuse the ungrateful.
The ubiquity of porn and drugs has now made pleasing a women irrelevant to men!
Women should go back in time and live in the trees once more cowering by themselves in the wilderness; just the way men originally found and took pity on them!

Women do not deserve the best handed to them for nothing, they deserve the right however to go out into the world and try their best. And if they are inadequate they can take the same consequences as anyone else, even a lowly man!

Wow, Robert. You really are a fake. I just went over to your blog, and you really do like to sweet talk all of the commenters about holistic medicine – including the women who don’t have clear pictures of reality. I’m pulling your troll card. Maybe you get off on talking down to women??

The most recent study on ethics concludes otherwise my friend.In a study on situational ethics it was.concluded that menhave more wishy washy ethics when the sitsituation would benefit them whereas womens ethics remained constant despite the situation. You believe some pretty silly stuff.

The really great thing about having an alibi is that it hides your own crimes.
Men are the great sacrificers, and the very cornerstone of civilization. Men cleared out the wilderness, fought in hand to hand combat with wild beasts, developed better weapons, better agriculture, better societies. Women benefit from men by default, and want to claim control over men, something they do not understand, but more than willingly benefit from. The garbage posted on this blog testify to nothing else then that women want from men with no limit to their expectations for a female welfare system supported by the blood and sweat of men!

What this discussion should really be about is not women’s rights but women’s responsibilities! What are women held accountable for except being incredibly stupid, and even in this there is no active accountability is there?

Wtf are you talking about? In the US women contribute 50% of their households income, and they still take on the majority of childcare and household care. In what universe do you live in where that is not being responsible?!? Just saying something doesnt make it true ya know. And lastly the irony of you talking about womens responsibility is palpable since the entirety of the positions on repro rights within the MRM is about men seeking to shirk their responsibilities for theor own bodies when they have sex!

I am happily married to my high-school sweetheart who I met at 14. We have six amazing children, and she knows we are not the same let alone equals!
Bite me!

“Ama me, Ama canem meam”…St Bernard

On Jun 14, 2014, at 3:53 PM, The Belle Jar wrote:

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Robert commented on Why The Men’s Rights Movement Is Garbage.

in response to Robert:

Talk to me when and if you ever developed a noticeable brain, not likely!

Women deserve equality with men when they become troublesome, odious and as stupid as some men, women like this are entitled to a good beating just like any man!

“Ama me, Ama canem meam”…St Bernard

On Jun 11, 2014, at 5:06 AM, The Belle Jar wrote:

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Spinning For Difficulty commented on Why The Men’s Rights Movement Is Garbage.

in response to Nicole:

Robert, as much as the other butthurt guys in here are awful enough, you’re the worst, based on your comments. I hope you’re not married, for if you got married and you shamelessly beat your wife (I don’t know if you have one), then you’re sick and disgusting. Get some help and then you could […]

“..No, I’m no hardcore feminist so don’t get me wrong, but women do not belong in the kitchen and they’re not made as slaves…”

Have you ever heard of the ‘FEminers’? They were a group of working class feminists from the 1800′s who lived in an area where the only work available was mining or shipbuilding or fishing or farming – basically all jobs which extreme and often dangerous forms of manual labour. Most jobs were manual labour back then because the technology for modern carpeted, centrally heated offices, information technology and modern service industries had not been invented yet.

Naturally, these women desperately wanted to liberate themselves from their oppressive gender roles as housewives, and go and work in the mines like their husbands were all doing. We know this is the case because today, now that we DO have the choice to do (a) gruelling manual labour or (b) work in nice comfortable indoor environment like an office, most people today prefer to do manual labour if they can.

But back then women were oppressed by the patriarchy which did not let them work down mines, or in the shipyards or on fishing boats or on construction sites.

But these feminists were not going to be oppressed any longer, and so they took to the streets armed with pitchforks and knives to demand the right to do men’s work!

They must have scared the men to death, because after confronting them and making their demands all of the men immediately said “So you want to work down the mines, while we stay at home and do the housework?…… yeah sure!”

And in just five minutes the women had successfully won the right to do all the manual labour jobs in the area, while the men were forced to stay at home and tend to the allotment, do the housework and play games with the children.

Victory for women, at last!

And so it was that on the following monday the women triumphantly marched off to do their husband’s privileged jobs in the mines, out in the fields, in the iron foundries, building the sewers, building roads and walls and houses …. and they sung songs of victory as they went!

“We hate men,
men are shit
Men are evil pigs,
But now we’re free,
to do their work,
we’ve smashed the patriar-chy!”

By about midday all the women returned home all covered in soot, and filth and with cuts and bruises and muscle strains.

And because the men loved their wives they simply gave them a big hug and let them in the house to get cleaned up.

Robert
You only reinforce what this article say. while I as a man don’t have to go to military as before in my country, I don’t have to marry a woman if she is pregnant, I dont have to provide for the entire family single-handedly, I don’t go to prison for when my wife breaks the law as before, I dont have to sit with a housewife who is mentally num from sitting home all day but I can now enjoy conversations with women who studied and work in field often giving me advice and support me.
The Idea that feminist came to ruin mens life is ridiculous, and sure not men and women will have everything we want, thats normal. But we did get much better situations in many ways, yes many of these changes created new challenges for us we never faced before but but we work on it and dont need counter productive people just making a noise. We need real contributions and constructive thinking. Feminists are not perfect, but they did accomplish many advantages for both men and women which makes them awesome.

Feminist maybe did not do all the good stuff in the world but they sure as hell did not bring all the bad things men still suffer either, allot we as men suffer is still from a patriarchal society. just remember a patriarchal society does not always look at the best interest of men either. ask the 300 000 men who came back in body bags from Vietnam. While MRA say its not just women who was discriminated against in the patriarchal society but men too, Feminist say exactly that’s why we don’t want the patriarchal society because both men and women suffered.

We dont see feminist burning people at the steak for not believing the same things, as men in the old days used to do, We dont see feminist tearing peoples bodies apart limb for limb for not praying to their god, Feminist and women through empowerment encouraged a great deal of humanity and freedoms we never would have enjoyed under strict patriarchal rule. Look back in your history and see how much men suffered under patriarchal rule. wars, torture, hard labour, prison camps, self sacrifice and now you blame feminists? really?

do you really enjoy suffering and dying for the power of men more than the freedoms and human rights you enjoy under the empowerment of women?

Feminists bombard society with sound bites like “gender equality” and “social diversity,” but beneath this facade of feel-good sentiments and moral posturing lies an ugly truth: feminism conditions women to believe they unilaterally deserve what men have earned. As a result, women feel entitled to male authority. However, feminism fails to inform women about the heavy price that must be paid by those in authority positions. To women, leadership merely translates into the acquisition of personal their care—even if it means forfeiting their lives—never even occurs to them. Nor do they realize that a leader’s decisions are audited for competence and accountability. Women foolishly assume their gender will forever exempt them from the responsibilities placed on those in authority positions. Feminism allows women to ignore this fundamental relationship between authority and accountability. It deceives them into believing that having their cake and eating it too is possible. The opportunity to wield male authority without worrying about the cost is an enticing carrot.

All these examples you cite of women being ‘favored’ in our society – did you ever think the courts, the military, and patriarchal society do what they do, not because they favor women, but because they don’t take them seriously? ‘She’s a silly little women! She doesn’t know what she’s doing! Awwww, poor thing! Pity and coddle her!’

Whose fault is that?

As for the whole ‘Men staying at home to raise the kids are discriminated against.’ That’s right – they’re discriminated against by a patriarchal society which enforces narrow ideas of masculinity and femininity. It’s the very system feminists are trying to tear down!

And the Titanic ‘Women and children first’ thing – who made that rule? A man. Why did he make that rule? Because chivalry dictates that women and children are on the same level as far as capability and self-preservation is concerned. Again, it’s not taking women seriously. It’s infantilizing them.

Thought about it and it does not ring true. It nmakes much more sense that they actually recognize the difference between the genders and pick the one more appropriate to the situation in the case. Women just are not as physically strong as men in general and therefore a poorer investment in the military. On a ship the idea is to evacuate the weakest first and leave those most likely to survive under harsher conditions the longest, once again physical strength playing a major role.

Meritocracy is thwarted by those seeking equality in positions better done by someone else.

Not to mention that the woman gets custody of the kids in most divorce proceedings not because she’s ‘favored’ but because society’s “script” insists that child care is women’s work.

I would have more confidence in these claims about fathers wanting custody of the kids if it didn’t sound so often that the primary purpose is getting back at “the bitch” rather than the well-being of said children.

I am replying, solely because your comment is so hard hitting and I think it’s important to summarise the strongest points in a concise reply.

“Second of all, let’s get one thing straight: men, as a group, do not face systematic oppression because of their gender.” It appears that the whole movement is heavily reliant on society blind acceptance of this notion. Au contraire! It would appear that males, especially white males, are the ONLY group to face systematic oppression [by society] because of their gender [and colour]. If it makes you feel less evil feminists, don’t think systematic oppression of men, think systematic marginalization of men. That should calm your guilt.

Borrowing your definition:

from the federal government:
Systemic discrimination involves a pattern or practice, policy, or class case where the alleged discrimination has a broad impact on an industry, profession, company or geographic area.
From Websters dictionary
nondiscrimination
noun \dis-ˌkri-mə-ˈnā-shən\

: the practice of unfairly treating a person or group of people differently from other people or groups of people.

It appears that in EVERY SINGLE facet of society males are specifically systematically oppressed and discriminated against in the interest of counteracting their ‘overwhelming privilege.’ Specifically because of this, any privilege men may have which would award them with an unfair advantage is swiftly met with severe marginalization. To believe that men have any privilege in modern society (especially white straight men), despite the overwhelming presence of affirmative action programs which specifically marginalize them and only them, would be to chasing the proverbial magic dragon. Id est, you’d have to be fucking high to believe that bullshit.

But let’s be honest for a second. Men will be alright. We are the stronger and tougher sex for a reason. Alright, let’s cut the crap, white, straight, cis men will be just fine. We’ve had a few millennia head start over everyone else, so to speak. But that’s not why MRA’s exist. We specifically exist to advocate for those ‘hyper privileged’ men who fall through the cracks of society. After all, they’ve got plenty of privilege, no needs to give them programs or a voice.

That’s why MRA’s are here. To stand up to feminism and society and say “they’re people too, they need a voice and they need to be pulled out of the gutter no less than anyone else.” In the absence of MRA’s these ‘privileged’ men who fall through those cracks will just be ignored, silence, dismissed and no one will help them out of the gutter with “white, straight, cis male affirmative action.” They’ll be left their to collect and rot because discrimination and bigotry is okay so long as it’s against ‘privilege’. The Men’s Rights Movement isn’t for you or I (yet) it’s for those who need a hand out of the gutter but will get it from no one else because of their ‘male privilege.’

But feminist bigotry against male ‘privilege’ is nothing new. Anyone ever played “spot the feminist bigotry?” Just put “black” in front of the word “man” and be shocked to your hearts content at how hateful a movement feminism really is. Bonus points for playing the game in a rape culture discussion. It’s like good ol’ Waldo swapped his red and white stripes for a cheetah onsie. Bigotry is fucking everywhere in feminism. After all, they don’t call it the movement of “my bigotry is ok” for nothing.

I should wrap this up now. Just as sammykur said, the one good point this bigoted post has made about the Men’s Rights Advocacy movement is that we don’t do enough to illicit positive change for the men who need it. MRA, drop your frustrations about feminist bigotry and double standards and get together with you MRA buddies. Discuss which problems matter to you most and how you can solve them. Then join forces with other small groups of MRA’s who wish to tackle a single problem. Soon the movement will snowball and change will happen.

The funny thing is men, get their ideas on women when they are young and the first important woman in their lives is their mother!

Men do have difficulties, but do not face discrimination the way women do. They also do not face pressure to confirm to a role in society, as women do, mainly because they often have more financial power.

I see now, that working women who are visible doing well, get the same understanding and acceptance that men their age get. And women who don’t have financial independence, face more pressure to conform than independent women or men their age.

The truth is rape laws are misused by a lot of women, when consensual relationships go bad and there is a need to have laws to deal with and prevent it. However, women who get raped need laws and systems to protect them and help them pursue a case and get justice. Indian women need society to back them, instead of ostracising them, when a crime has been committed against them.

It’s not about men or women.

It is about is bringing up your child right – with values, caring for others, patience, interests hobbies and an education. Parents with time for their kids, who treat their boys and girls equally.
About little boys who are taught they should be pampered, served, looked after more and little girls who are taught they should do more for their brothers.

A lot of Indian men cannot eat unless their food is served, get a glass of water, make a cup of tea and i’m sure this happens elsewhere too.

Even men have a right to be taught independence from time they’re young. The men’s movement needs to focus on this!

Women have traditionally for tens of thousands of years been considered to be of breed-able and merit able age from the first menstral cycle at the age of 13. It was not until the development of the idea of mandatory high school education(completed at age 18) that fucking women younger than 18 were given the status of legal and moral prohibition under the law. If you consider all of the great figures in biblical and koranic history, by our modern standard, these men were all child molesters(had sexual relationships with women under 18 years old).
This legal status is the greatest benefit conferred by men upon the women’s rights movement ever, that they are not married off hastily, and their lives are put into biological limbo for 5 years after it is ripe. What have women done with this advantage gain for themselves? No they have merely used this as a platform to obtain more for no additional merit on there part! Babies will always be babies!

First, while sexual readiness has often been historically tied to the onset of puberty, that link is by no means universal. In many eras and societies, women have been considered marriageable (and sexually available) well before puberty, and in many eras and societies, it has been custom or law to wait until well after puberty for marriage (and sex).

Second, consent laws that set the age of consent past puberty predate mandatory high school education by a period of decades. Increases in age of consent to 16 and sometimes 18 followed public outrages over child prostitution, and were enacted in the latter half of the 19th century, a period in which high school education was not only not compulsory but was in fact uncommon. It can be said, however, that changing laws concerning the age of consent and moving towards compulsory education were both legal adjustments to shifting attitudes about childhood and adolescence over a long period.

Third, let’s not romanticize the practice of impregnating young adolescents; pregnancy in young teens carries significant risks to both mother and child. Peak health and fertility comes a bit later.

Fourth and finally, men didn’t “confer this benefit” on the feminist movement; rather, women were incredibly active and vocal in social crusades and struggled–and continue to struggle–on our own behalf. Nor can it be reasonably said that women have “done nothing” with the increased access to education and employment outside the home, as well as the increase in self-determination, that comes with not being married and bearing children at 12 or 13; the number of women in government, higher education, and business flatly belies that claim. Don’t get me wrong–we’re not *done* yet, but there is evident and substantial progress and benefit.

The daily papers in Mumbai have articles on verdicts where the case has fallen through because of this. And yet, women who have been the victim of a crime struggle to get justice. And even when they do, they have to deal with society ostracising them.
The recent very publicised rape cases in Mumbai and Delhi are getting followed through partly because of media pressure and partly the sheer gruesomeness of both cases that have shocked society and made us women be more careful to avoid lonely and isolated spots.

Am re writing my reply, as the computer stalled when i replied earlier.

The daily newspapers in Mumbai. Some rape cases fall through because they are filed when a consensual relationship goes bad and therefore are not rapes at all.

And women who have been raped have a tough time dealing with a poorly managed system – just filing a case and dealing with the system is often an ordeal. Though these days, women are braving that and filing cases, a lot more than earlier. And sometimes getting the media involved when the police refuse to register cases – this happens too, occasionally.

The victims also often, get ostracised by other women and society in general, when they have been raped.

The 2 very public gang rapes in Delhi and Mumbai have been processed quick in the courts due to the constant focus of the media and the sheer gruesomeness of the crimes.

As a woman, I have always been careful that I am not alone in isolated places, but I am a little more careful now.

One rape which was given media coverage, was committed by the building watchman.

A lot of villages in India have a social structure where men and women do not speak freely and these men come to cities and work as watchman, drivers and shopkeepers. They occasionally, have their own social and other problems, and are unable to accept the culture change in cities and form wrong opinions about city women, resulting in more crime, when they get an opportunity.

There’s so much to change and the media is giving this issue a lot more focus. But I think, women need to treat other women with acceptance and kindness – and bring up their children, both boys and girls the same way.

I hear women sometimes talking about how a woman has poor character because of her dress or because she went out with a boy before marriage and it makes me angry!

Women need to change and accept that other women can dress differently, behave differently and still deserve to be treated with kindness and respect and decency.

Most certainly here, and I think also elsewhere in the world, a mother is the one who shapes the attitudes of her children.

I think education and giving poor children a way out and hope for the future, breeds better people, less crime and fewer rapists.

So, I don’t think it’s a man woman thing – society needs to change.

I’m sure a lot of things are different where you live, as the problems in each country and culture are different.

aekohli, some women participate in victim-blaming here, too. It aggravates me even more when women do it. They have a smug, superior attitude as though they are immune. In some cases I think they do it as a defense mechanism out of fear. If they convince themselves that only “bad” or “stupid” women are raped, it makes them feel safer.

“A lot of Indian men cannot eat unless their food is served, get a glass of water, make a cup of tea and i’m sure this happens elsewhere too.”

It’s mostly older men who expect to be waited on here. I agree that parents have a significant role in teaching equality to children. Both parents have to be on the same page, though, so that one doesn’t sabotage the other one’s efforts.

One of the reasons for my blog category ‘The relaxed housekeeper and other stories’ was to encourage women to take a break when they need – good for them and the family. Things are changing for a lot of Indian women, but slowly. Happy women are more supportive of other women and less jealous when they do well, I think.

” A lot of Indian man……” It was a past thing and now most of the modern empowered women don’t know even how to make a simple tea. Earlier house hold chores were very difficult and time consuming but in modern time with all the house hold aparatus domestic work is so simple. Don’t compare our mothers with todays snakes. Also who want a womens help for food and other needs, every nook and corner there is hotels and restaurants and 100 % run by man and women have no right to cry for their sacrifies to man now. No need to teach us what to do and how to do todays man are self sufficient and no need help from women. Man want women same like lionn want microwave.

Men DO face discrimination and you know it, all feminists know it. MRAs do bring important points and many laws are biased against men. Where I’m from the law doesn’t recognize sexual and physical abuse committed by women against male minors. That’s just one of the many anti male laws. These laws were brought about by feminist pressure.

This whole article is garbage. The writer’s mind is garbage. She’s doesn’t get to decide what’s right for others. That’s what feminism was fighting against anyway.

I do agree with you that laws should be fair to everyone. I don’t agree with you that men face discrimination. Simply because, when I look around me, I see society putting pressure on women for failings, which they happily accept in men.

I read a lot of crime reported, where men assault and victimise women, girls and boys, and occasionally men, but hear little or nothing about women doing the same, and personally I think the incidence of such crime is very very low, if at all.

We have had cases of minor servants beaten,and the police arrested the couple they worked for. I don’t hear about sexual assault committed by women here in India at all.

Remember, that I speak about where I live and each place is different.

Yes, there are laws and systems that do not support men or boys when they should and there are an equal or more number of laws and systems that do not support women and girls when they should.

The laws and policing, to protect basic rights of women, to ensure their freedom and safety, are required simply because, women get attacked and assaulted much much more than men and are often targeted by men when they travel. The percentage of crime women face compared to men, and the risks when they travel alone or late, is much much higher. For women, it’s often about the right to work and come home alone, late – freedom s that men just have and never needed to fight for – whereas women are fighting for good policing, secure and safe public transport – it s still an issue in Mumbai.

I think the women’s movement is about fairness to all weaker sections of society.

Laws do evolve, unfortunately, only when it is evident, from crime statistics that something needs to be done, so someone has already been hurt and not helped, before this happens.

When laws are unfair we need to change them, but is what you talk about a case of discrimination – which is a deliberate act to push a section of the population down and deny them basic rights or simply a case of a law carelessly and badly drafted which needs change? Think about it

Why be so disingenuous? Teens are not the same as young boys. You cant look at criminal court outcomes and think that says anything about a trend, unless there is an actual trend. Law enforcement and the court system are largely dominated by men, so if a female criminal defendant (a teacher) is accused of statutory rape (which carries a low,almost non-sentence anyway, regardless of the sex of the offender) and receives a lighter sentence (1) it is likely due to the circumstances, and (2) more importantly, teen boys ARE perceived differently in this regard BECAUSE of sexist beliefs about boys and sex. You just dont have a leg to stand on on this issue because rapists, of any kind, hardly ever go to prison, much less get prosecuted. Personally, I think anyone who preys on a teen to have sex should receive a minor jail sentence but that is not how statutory rape convictions generally work. Also, feminism has nothing to do with this issue.

The ones we prosecute the most are ones which involved heinous violence and/or death despite rape being a violent crime in general (statutory rape is not perceived as a violent crime but as one in which one of the parties cannot legally consent despite being willing). There really arent people being wrongfully imprisoned as a result of a rape conviction, and the ones that were and were released with the help of orgs like SPLC and Innocence Project, were a result of racism,nothing anti-male.

You get very easily inflamed, as do most MRAs I’ve noticed, about issues you don’t even understand.

You were implying that female teachers were sleeping with young boys and NO they werent, they were sleeping with teens, just as male teachers do. There really isnt any inequality in sentencing in this issue, you really have no idea what you are talking about. Nothing can be “done” within this stupid movement, to what, make courts sentence female teachers more? Seriously, do you know ANYTHING about the criminal justice system? MRAs dont know a lot about….things.

Why do guys like you act like men learn how to be a man from a woman, specifically their mother? Poor parenting definitely contributes to someones.view about the sexes but men learn what it means.to be.a.man from other men and this includes how to treat other people especially the opposite sex.

Well women have historically been the primary teachers of all children since they were and still are the primary caregivers and are overly represented amongst faculty in primary education. With the divorce rate still being so high its an indication that a lot of people marry for the wrong reasons, usually a pregnancy. I blame religion for that. But, it’s also irrelevant, see first sentence. Boys do not look to women to learn what i means to be a man. Further, it is asinine to argue that women are to blame for everything related to child rearing when so many fathers simply aren’t all that deeply involved with their children’s lives. I’m pretty sure absent dad (even when in the home) is worse than present mother (even if she works multiple jobs to support her kid but spends as much time as possible with her child when home). Also teaching boys old fashioned masculinity which doesnt jive in the modern world or even the modern workforce is not helping boys one iota — and as a society, made up of men, women and children, we are all complicit.

If you read about men and masculinity you would follow the line of thought here. Even Farrell admits that it is wrong and damaging to continually try and shove boys into the “act like a man” box but then goes off the deep end with his lack of consistency and his odd belief in feminist influence in public education, etc, something for which there is no proof. I urge any parent of young boys or teen boys to read Real Boys by William Pollack. It’s a real eye opener to the fuct up things we ALL perpetuate about boys – which are all a direct result of rigid traditional gender roles.

Todays worls it is women should know how to treat other people especially man. Feminism start for equality but when it bite back their new mantra is victime hood. New mantra is all women are victims and all man are villians. For femnists equality where it suit them otherwise always victims.Shame on you feminsits. Man right (MRA) is the need of the hour and fortunately it is growing all over the world.

Yes I understand that. It s just that financial power also often means more forgiveness and understanding when you make mistakes or fail to meet expectations. It means that people are also more afraid to push you around.

They also do not face pressure to confirm to a role in society, as women do, mainly because they often have more financial power.

Men HAVE status because society forces them into exactly that! Society tells them they HAVE to get a job, a good job, that earns money, then they have to have a nice car and a nice house/apartment. Those men who do not conform are deadbeats! Grown up sissy man-boys who live in their mom’s basement and play COD and/or wow all day and wont “man-up” and be good to society. That’s a label for a reason, it’s very offensive and it’s to assert that if you’re not meeting society standards of status and financial prosperity then you are a deadbeat leech off of society. Women do not have, or at least not to that extent, societies pressure to conform financially and ‘provide.’ Fuck off men don’t have the pressure from society to conform.

I know you’re a dirty fucking close minded feminist so it’s all “me, me, me” and you can’t see anything outside of the tiny box of your shitty little hateful ideology so I’ll just fucking spell it out for you.

Financial pressures of conformity:
Deadbeat is to gold digging whore.

Another feminist favourite:
“Wah wah wah I’m oppressed because I can go and fuck 100 guys.” Fuck off you can’t. Because of equality you CAN, you’re just too much of a soft cunt pussy to deal with the label it gives you.

Slut (which is a VERY offensive label I hear) is to beta male/ man-virgin. To assert that one is a failure with women and an adult virgin because they “lack game.”

EVERYONE is pressured by society to conform in one way or another. If the fact that you can’t deal with a fucking label is evidence that there’s widespread oppression of women and that you need feminism then EVERYONE in the history of man kind was oppressed. Every single individual.

“However, women who get raped need laws and systems to protect them and help them pursue a case and get justice. ” Yes, women already have MANY laws which protect them from rape by assuring that anyone to rape them (well a man) will get a VERY lengthy prison sentence. You know what? Women (especially in some places) probably need MORE and/or better laws to deter rape…. Just not at the detriment of men being falsely accused of rape or any other rape related male issue. Then it’s not equality any more, it a bigoted hate movement.

“It is about is bringing up your child right…” I presume by “it” you mean “feminism” as opposed to “the meaning of life.” If it is the latter then yes, you are 100% right and your insights are up there with Ghandi’s and Bhudda’s. If you mean the former then you’re very wrong. You’re either lying about your ideology or you’re SEVERELY as to what feminism truly is about.

I’ll give you a hint. Feminism isn’t an ‘idea of equality.’ It’s an ideology, like religions. You can do all the interpretive poetic reading you want but part of being an ideology is that you have to subscribe to a certain set of core beliefs. Namely patriarchy theory, oppression of ALL women by ALL men etc. Well, if it were an idea and an equality movement it would simply be an idea named ‘genderism’ or whatever that equally assesses and tackles everyone’s issues.

“Even men have a right to be taught independence from time they’re young. The men’s movement needs to focus on this!” Yes! 100% on the point! The MRM needs to focus on this.

I think you missed the whole point – different cultures do have different sets of pressures.

And the purpose of blogging is to share so that good ideas move across cultures and people think about bad ideas and whether they should change.

I look around and see both men and women who are the main wage earners in their families facing a lot of pressure to do well financially and display visibly, the evidence of their financial success.

I do also see, that despite the pressures, the main wage earner, whether male or female in the family, has a happier life than the person whose job is looking after the home – social acceptance and family support, when there is a problem. That people have more understanding for them and support them more.

The one whose job it is to look after the home, gets no income for that work and in the event of family breakdown, whether a divorce or a split in a joint family system here, or even a death of the earning member of the family is the one who suffers the most socially, because people generally have more understanding, where there is financial power and success.

I think, and i speak for the culture where i live, that families where women are educated bring their children up with more equality between the sexes. Educated parents can help their kids better when they have difficulties at school, with studies (as a teacher, i see more of women helping their children than men – even women with high pressure jobs making the time – and just a few dad’s doing the same -it’s changing, but slow)

A large percentage of our population has limited access to education and i think that is the key. Also, when they do, they sometimes educate the boy and not the girl. Some families feed their boy children better, educate them more, because they feel a girl will get married and stay at home and the boy needs a career and will look after his children and his parents.

Over here, i see men and women who work, commuting 4 hours a day and working a 10 day week – tired, stressed, sometimes not able to get leave. I also see them motivated, despite that still glad to work, and just help out with home chores, rather than bearing the full responsibility of looking after the home.

Remember, that we in Mumbai do not have social security, so looking after the home means looking after older family, who can be very very difficult when ill and worse when well, and children Because of the long commute most working people have, often, the one managing the home bears a lot more that their share of the housework.

We don’t have nursing homes for people that are terminally ill and medical care has to be done at home. We don’t get help who is educated and qualified for home nursing and having been through supporting close family members doing the care for bedridden older family, i can tell you that it’s a tough tough job.

I hope the Gods are good to me and all goes well and i never have to look after a bedridden family member, but i know what is meant for me will come to me. And i know i will accept it and do what i need to.

So, you want to be angry that i live in a different culture, and the society i live in has a different set of pressures? Fine!

Do people try here and sometimes not succeed to match society expectations of financial success? Yes

Is there unemployment that denies people opportunities for work? Yes

But i can assure you, that the pressure anyone looking for a job feels is not just external, it’s internal and very much ingrained in cultural values. Women do have the option of not working and getting married, but it’s not the easiest option – just appear to be that way – and young women are getting smarter and realising it and feeling just as pressured as young men to get a job.

Is it wrong to expect people to work in some way – at home or at a job? I think not!!

Is it wrong to be excessively materialistic and greedy and therefore put pressure on people to constantly display wealth – YES – and we cannot change others – but we can change ourselves – the way we treat others and by ourselves, not showing off, when we have too much of something.

It’s not about men or women, but about society, but right here, right now, it’s about women being fed, educated, having the right to commute safely. About better work opportunities for the educated boys and girls, so they can hope and dream…..I think this would reduce a lot of crime against women and society in general.

Over here, the reason why many men are not taught independence from the time they are young, is because of the way their mother’s bring them up – simply doing too much for them. And it’s their mother
s who need to change, before their children can!

I think a women’s movement, fair and unbiased towards both sexes is the answer. All of my thoughts relate specifically to the culture where i live – it is still women who need focus – to be educated, given opportunities, so they have financial independence and access to new ideas and thinking.

If you feel differently, or disagree with me it’s fine!

I will however delete any future notifications i receive from you if they contain abuse or any words i find offensive.

good luck ackholi,
If these feminist were really worried about the general plight of women they do have the resources to help you,but choose to keep them for themselves.
dont know anything about India so i cant make an informed comment and i wont make an uninformed one
may you and your family be safe,live long and prosper.

Letting “men be men” has us teetering on the brink of destruction, which could come in one of several forms, from any side. Men have been trying to get a handle on being in charge long enough for us all to see that they’re simply not up for the job, they’re much too emotional, too reactive, they can’t seem to control their baser urges, they fight at the drop of a hat. It’s well past time for women to take back their rightful places as leaders and law-makers of their communities, both local and global.

Hardly, if it were up to women we’d all still be living in trees too timid to change, progress or evolve. There is little doubt that the female reaction was resistant to vacating what was a perfectly good lifestyle; bananas, leaves, and lot’s of exercise fleeing from hungry jaguars that the females were too deficient in physical and mental ability to defend themselves from! Wanda, maybe you should go back to this traditional lifestyle, find yourself a nice tree and call it home, because you certainly don’t appreciate the one men have forged out for you!

There is no such thing as reverse sexism just as there is no such thing as reverse racism. But you missed my point, maybe cause you dont understand the MRM I dunno, anyway men have not really changed all that much since second wave feminism. As a group when you still ascribe to an outdated concept of masculinity and manhood that is simply no longer relevant in the modern world, yeah, its gonna result in some anger bc everything else is changing around them. Thats all I meant in re “men never stopped being men.” I mean, they will always be men, duh, but why are they clinging with a death grip to a concept of masculinity that society no longer cares for and the only ones that do are conservatives (political and/or religious). For example lg swath of men still subscribe to the notion that their job makes them a man, so rather than taking full advantage of a dual income and taking on a rewarding but less demanding job instead men (and I mostly mean married men) seem to have doubled down om the unnecessary need to be the majority provider in their household. Trust me, no loving father or husband is going to say on his deathbed “I wish I spent more time at work.”

I feel that there is a difference between men and women for a reason. Men are stronger bread winners and women are better nurtures. For the most part. There is nothing wrong with women supplementing a struggling income, but the world needs more mothers in the home. Too many women are sacrificing their children just to prove they are more like men. Sorry to say it, but women’s lib has all but destroyed the family. I’m not saying that men had it all right, but they didn’t have it all wrong as the libbers would have us believe. And yes women can be sexist just as a black person can be racist.

That’s a load of bollocks, all of it. There is NOTHING within biology that makes any of what you say true, it is ALL a result of how we learn gender (ie social conditioning). The thing is, it’s also not true. Men are NOT the breadwinners anymore since women contribute half of their household’s income. And did men take the opportunity after the unreasonable burden to be the sole provider was lifted off them to become better partners and more involved parents? , unfortunately, for quite a lot, no. And there is something wrong with that, something wrong that we teach our children about men’s capabilities as caregivers of children. You seem to subscribe to traditional gender roles and while that may be find for you and yours a whole lot of other people, especially women, want an equal partner, not one who subscribes to rigid gender roles. No one wants to be “like men.” And implying that wanting to work and finding work fulfilling is being “like men” is so wrongheaded I’m appalled that anyone would think that way. I thought you were a woman? I understand why some guys keep claiming women ant to be like men because they very strongly subscribe to gender issues in black and white terms but if you’re a woman you’ve just internalized sexism via traditional gender roles, which again, may be fine for you, but that isn’t what most women want. Actually the belief that women’s lib has ruined the family is really about how men have not reacted well to women gaining agency over their own lives and entering the workforce en masse. We only live once and mistakes can happen but no one (no ONE, not just no woman) should be tied to a horrible partner simply because there is a child, this mentality completely negates all the real reason why women arent with the father of their child(ren). Has the abortion rate dropped since Roe? No you say? I wonder why. Unfortunately its because we don’t teach men to protect their own reproduction and instead put the bulk of the responsibility on women. the condom is 98% effective if used regularly and correctly and no matter how many times I have argued that on this very thread EVERY guy has responded back completely pushing the safe sex issue back onto women. Frankly, men do not care about the people they are having sex with if they choose not to wear a condom considering it is the only method that protects against STIs. And guess what, this is NOT innate in men, it is learned! EVERYTHING society most dislikes about men AND women (especially as it relates to sex and relationships) is learned behavior – a direct byproduct of how we teach gender. With most women these days wanting to go to college and get a job before marrying and having children, society is going to have to seriously re-think why we are not raising boys with the same mentality (that they should go to college, get a job……).

Seriously, you need to do some more reading. These are hugely complex issues and anyone who touts silly rhetoric like “feminism has ruined the family!” is simply not learned enough to engage in intelligent discourse. Especially since mothers stay and raise their children, and where are all those fathers? Cause there is simply no basis for the belief that the majority of single mothers are keeping their kids from their father. It is easy to leave and much harder to say and raise a child. Men have ALWAYS had it easy in the parenting department. Only the ones truly involved in their children’s lives knows that men can be and should do better.

You dont understand the issues that are concern for feminism and society as a whole, despite them constantly expressing what they are– primarily the increased hyper masculinity that has largely driven our culture as second wave feminism started making its mark has caused a lot of problems in society that adversely affect both men and women and children. Men are not the standard to which we measure all things, and that is ok, because why ever would they want to be? It really is ok to be whoever you want to be regardless of whether you fall out of the “act like a man” box. There are people out there that feel exactly as you do! Go find those people and make friends! Really, its not hard, men do not need to cling to an antiquated concept of masculinity/manhood that is no longer relevant in our modern society – that is what i meant by “men have not stopped being men” — they havent fully embraced the freedoms that feminism brought society and are still rigidly judging other boys and men for not looking/being what they think a man should look/be (ie the act like a man box).

When men start casting off their shackles of conformity, they will feel less “oppressed.”

Again, why so obtuse?. While geeks (not to be confused with nerds who tend to be socially awkward) are experiencing a surge in pop culture they are the exact type of people that traditional masculinity still makes fun of. Seriously, youre just too disingenuous to engage, sorry i wasted my time.

As for not understand the shackles comment, simply not surprised, smh. Arent you a guy? You act like you have no clue about these issues. EVERYTHING the MRM complains about is a result of patriarchy and the way we LEARN GENDER. All of this shit that you guys SO want to believe is innate, IS NOT, IT IS LEARNED, and it is all related to what we are taught about traditional gender roles that conflicts with the what we think in our heads. A lot of men very much want to believe that their proper role is that of provider first, etc, but this is not reality and nor is it innate, its patriarchy. For men to feel they have true freedom they need to cast off their shackles of conformity and live their lives however THEY want so long as they arent harming anyone. I mean you seem like you understand that given your reference to big bang theory but if that is so, and you really believe that then either you are confused about your real thoughts on all these other positions or you are just ok with your inconsistency. Because the issue here isnt masculinity, its hyper/toxic masculinity which is actually how we currently teach masculinity!

Interesting because your picture at the end describe how i feel about feminists. Fu¢k you too.

Im a man of colour and your bashing of the cis white male is ridiculous and sexist and even racist. Male privilage is a joke. Tell that to the men who die in wars are frequently die in Afghanistan and other foreign countries just becausethey are men. Tell that to the fathers who freque lose custody of their children whom they love but will get to see 2 weeks a year and also pay for everything in their lives without even getting an opportunity to see their Children. Tell that to the men who lose their homes and their entire income in divorce settlements. Tell that to the men who died on the titanic.

I wish bigots like you would be killed off, but as a democracy i have to acknowledge that you have the right to free speech. But know this, that dosent take away the right from me to hate bigots like you.

The supposition that women are too weak or emotional to participate in combat is rooted in patriarchy. The supposition that women are natural caregivers and belong in a domestic setting is rooted in patriarchy. The structures that encourage or force women to work in the home, becoming reliant on the income of their male partners are rooted in patriarchy. The systemic prejudice against employing and promoting mothers is rooted in patriarchy. The chivalric code that led men to give women preference on lifeboats on board the Titanic stems from a gender essentialist viewpoint that casts women as perennial victims and is, you guessed it, rooted in patriarchy.

Feminists are literally working to address every single issue you mentioned. Patriarchy reinforces male privilege, but that doesn’t mean that men never suffer, only that men are broadly preferenced in most arenas, and that our gender essentialist culture tends to value traditionally male traits over traditionally feminine ones. Calling attention to that inequality–or to any other structural injustice–isn’t “bashing”. There are some arenas in which that is unquestionably awful for men, as in the domestic sphere, but it turns out that the key to resolving those issues isn’t to fall back on that same gender essentialism and reinforce the power imbalance, but rather to dismantle those structures, which is what feminists aim to do.

If women are seen and treated as equals, they will be eligible for the draft and will be able to serve as combatants. If “women’s work” is accorded the same values as any other work, child-rearing will be more equally shared between parents, and if women are no longer identified almost exclusively with the domestic sphere, they will not enjoy gendered preference in custody. If women are paid equally and afforded equal opportunities for advancement, they will not be so reliant on the incomes of male partners. If women are not seen categorized as victims and martyrs (when they’re not whores, anyway), they will not receive gendered preference in lifesaving efforts.

Feminism has bright about many laws that discriminate against men. How is that working for the same goal?? Rape laws, marriage laws, domestic violence laws. Where I’m from female sexual and physical abusers are not even recognized by law, so there’s no way to persecute them.

MRAs genuinely want equality not privilege which is what feminism has become. It’s a well known fact the feminists fabricate statistics for rape, domestic abuse and other areas to further their own goals of screwing up men.

How can you say these issues are “made up”? Have you done any fact checking at all? Or perhaps you’re like so many other feminists that simply decide on something, make a survey to suit that something (in such a way that the only way to answer the questions will give the desired result), then decides that is fact…

I will respond to this despite this not being a response to a comment I made.

I don’t think they are “made up” but they have absolutely NOTHING to do with feminism and existed LONG before feminism even became a thing. The repro rights though, those ARE made up issues because we ALL have repro rights. The MRM does not understand what repro rights are AT ALL, so ALL of their positions are flawed in that regard. Most of what they want cannot be done through law. There is never going to be extensive funding for men’s DV shelters because there will never be any significant number of men who need to escape their homes. There SHOULD be increased funding for homeless shelters, for both sexes, so each can be safe. The VA is already dealing with its homeless vets and about time.
Blahvlahblah surveys. It should be obvious what the role of govt is, that is to serve a public need. The overwhelming statistics from the criminal justice system and law enforcement is enough to support the need for the VAWA – WHICH PROTECTS EVERYONE — THE FEDERAL GOVT CANNOT DISCRIMINATE! (Why do you think DOMA fell? Those conservative justices were engaging in craaazy judicial activism, something they claim to hate, in order to vote against that case.)

But I digress, no one has ever said there aren’t problems for men, feminists talk about them ALL THE TIME. The problem is, the MRM is ineffectual because it does not identify the root cause of its issues, which is patriarchy, not feminism. Pretty much nothing that they say about feminism is true, i mean, they dont even understand what repro rights are which is not rocket science, the word reproduction is in the name, but they actually believe it has to do with parenting rights, thus ALL their positions on repro rights are flawed, based on horrible understanding of the law and unconstitutional on its face. Back to the point — most of what they want to see accomplished is cultural, BUT they are too busy shitting all over feminists because THAT was a successful movement (leading them to believe feminists have “brainwashed” DC elites, yeah, they’re out and out fools) and no one will listen to them. Correct, no one wants to listen to a majority white group of men claiming to be oppressed because MEN ARE NOT OPPRESSED ON ACCOUNT OF THEM BEING MEN. Are men discriminated against? Hell yeah, but the discrimination still isn’t a result of being a man but whatever their subgroup is – race, religion, sexual orientation, class.
Back to culture, most of what MRAs seek to change requires cultural change and they tend to subscribe to the status quo all while railing against it so they will continue to perpetuate a culture that will continue to result in these problems for men and in some areas, for women as well, specifically regarding sex and reproduction since the entire basis for their repro rights position is that men should be able to have sex without responsibility, that no matter how the woman becomes pregnant they actually believe they should be able to opt out of respnsibility, which will never happen. The govt was required to make fathers financially responsible to their children since prior to, men just walked away and there were NO repercussions – the mother and child(ren) received govt assistance. I think the govt wizened up to the fact that the taxpayer (me and you) shouldnt be paying for other men’s children thus the enforcement of child support, which has only been since the 70s mind you. But that’s a good segue into their biggest issue – child custody but really child support — most of the MRM pages are focused on what a harpy their ex is and the child support. There are some father’s rights sites that are better and talk about their kids a lot, but they still hold vitriol for their exes, they havent moved on or realized that they actively participated in their marriage thus they too were part of its failure – men who claim the divorce was a surprise, I dont really feel sorry for them because that just shows how out of tune with their partner they were. Once divorced, with children, unless the ex was abusive during the marriage those parents need to get over it and get along for the sake of their kid(s). Our culture’s views toward sex and sexuality are not healthy and despite feminism, women are still judged for pretty much everything related to sex, even rape and sexual assault, which aren’t even sexual! Just look at how illogical the MRA argument is in re repro rights, smh. Anywho, the child custody thing – see, the reason why women are more likely to be the custodial parent is because SURPRISE! they are more likely to do the bulk of the caregiving and despite what some silly men think, the court really does make a decision as to what is in the best interest of the child. Short of an abusive parent, I do think the parents should get equal time, BUT only if they both want to – in a lot of cases men do not pursue custody and when they do they actually tend to get it. However, the likelihood of any state legislature passing presumptive joint custody is pretty slim to none because the judge is still the most informed person to make a decision in the child’s best interest based on what has been presented.

As long as the soldier can carry their rucksack and weapon, individual physical strength is irrelevant. I mean, what century do you think you are in? Modern warfare has rendered the need for physical superiority in a soldier to be irrelevant. Please get a clue. Not to mention women pilots fly into dangerous situations all the time when deployed. They are at risk,ALL soldiers who are deployed into a war zone are at risk regardless of their position. There should be nothing barring women from combat service and when you do so, at least in the army, you bar women from advancing in rank, that is why most high ranking women in military are NOT in the Army. It is only sexism barring women from full military service.

Also women are not more emotional than men because of genetics. ALL babies are born with the SAME capacity to express emotion on the full spectrum. It is learning gender that causes both men and women to shutter certain emotions deemed less attractive for their sex. It’s really sad that so many men do not understand this.

No one is fighting intrenches anymore wtf are you talking about? Did you follow ANY of the war coverage in the past decade, good gravy. What is the relevance of mentioning building bridges? smh As for basic training, which EVERYONE in the military has to go through, again whats your point? Ohhh wait, youre not one of the dudes that so misunderstands the concept of physical fitness standards that you think women should meet the same standards as men are you? Because that’s idiotic since even you admitted that men and women are diffrent physically. Men and women in the military must meet the physical fitness standard for THEIR sex, it would be idiotic to use a male standard for women, because women are not men, duh. I hope youre not one of those schmoes who thinks female athletes arent as good as men because they cant beat their world records because you sure sound like you believe such tripe.

It’s only sexism keeping women out of combat roles and nothing more. There is nothing about readiness within the military that separates men from women of equal ranking and job. Modern technology has rendered your argument moot. You are misinformed.

THOSE ARE SEXIST POINTS OF VIEW!!!! WTF, why are you being so obtuse? Do you not understand what you are saying?!/!?!? And like I said, there aren’t all that many roles within the military anymore that require physical strength, what didnt you understand about technology having rendered most of that argument moot?!? You are making a sexist argument, so come correct and just admit you think women are too weak for military service. And I will respond by telling you that is why the majority of female officers are NOT in the Army! Because there is a barrier to advancement there. And there is NO VALID reason to bar women from ascending in rank in our military. Do you know ANYTHING about the constitution or the law?!?!? The federal govt should NOT be involved in discrimination.

All these dudebros griping about how horrible feminism is and how it’s done ‘em wrong just keep reminding me of Chris Rock talking about white guys griping about the increasing population of minorities in the USA –

I love this quote, “Feminists try to cast a shadow on the men’s human rights movement, portraying us as anti-social, but MHRAs actually have more respect for people than the mainstream. We believe society can break free from their illusions and create a better world. What feminists call anger is actually just tough love.”

Wow; not even relevant. The ability to tell someone that you want them to do what makes them happy is not inherently a “male” or “female” trait. What is wrong with relationships is a direct result of standards set by… hmm… I wonder who. Hey, guys — I have a novel idea. Go wiki “patriarchy” and try and actually absorb the meaning of the word.

I don’t think there’s one issue that MRAs complain about where the real problem isn’t patriarchy. These guys complain on my blog, and I just point out how patriarchy is the real cause of their problems. And then they lose interest and stop commenting.

Good thing this is a nation of laws that confer rights on the individual then! Also, the divorce rate has remained fairly constant for a loooong time. The reason why things like DV have decreased is bc now women have the means to leave.

Maybe not, but there would be a hell of a lot more domestic violence resulting in murder, and it wouldn’t be all one-sided. Sometimes cutting your losses is the best thing to do; a divorce is certainly much more merciful to any children than a household in constant turmoil or tension..

Men dominate men firstly, and so we don’t put up with shit from women. Dominating women is an ancillary pursuit. If you want to be equal, then this only entitles you to your share of abuses, and so get a grip. If you can’t handle the heat then get the fuck out of the kitchen!

Robert, stop being so abusive. If you have legitimate issues to talk about then talk about them, don’t just sit there being abusive, name-calling, generalizing, etc. Men do not dominate, some do, some don’t. Your behaviour is utterly disgusting.

What created the rape laws, anti domestic abuse laws and marriage laws which are heavily biased against men and have sent many innocent men to jail??? Feminism. Not patriarchy. Now criticism of feminist policies might be banned in the EU. This is a direct infringement on the freedom of speech. Patriarchy never created this crap. Feminists did.

laws are passed by votes not the politicians vote but the votes he can get from supporting a law. there is a formula used by campain stratagist that figures out how many votes per dollar they can get and the votes lost or gained on a bill using demographics,past voting records, amount of outside influence (think its 501c)groupsand time until elction among others

Its actually similar nate silvers 740 blog(formula)and quite accurate.Thats one reason why its so hard to beat an incumbant-they campaign all year

The problem is not that many of men’s issues have originated in the patriarchy as the patriarchy at points had to compensate to protect women in the patriarchy or else women would have been oppressed. However, what I have against feminists are: today, after the patriarchy men have these issues that is not suitable in the modern world and yet feminist dismiss their rights or ability to discuss their rights as a MRA group because it originated in the patriarchy. So because it originated in the patriarchy therefore men should not have their human rights acknowledged and they must be silenced. It does not mean because the issues arise in the patriarchy that men should not have those rights reconsidered. Men do not blame feminist for introducing it, men blame feminist who prevent men from changing it as MRAs , Men blame feminist who seek ways to minimalize and dismiss mens rights issues as you are now doing by blaming it on the patriarchy as a way of dismissing it. Men also hate the feminisms way to use those disadvantage positions against men where ever they can to incriminate men or benefit women.
This is why men and women should go their own way and stop trying to talk about issues, men do their thing and women do their thing and stay away from each other. Oh I forgot, feminist wont let men have their owns space without breaking down the building because only feminist hypocrisy may have a freedom of speech. its best men and women just head in their own way and leave each other the hell alone. Just remember women will never again experience the love they had in the patriarchy ever again.

You go to second world war letters and read the letters soldiers wrote to their wives and girlfriends, and then I challenge you see if you will in today’s life find any men who love women as much as men loved and committed to women back then. Men will never have that love for women ever again.

Instead men will learn to watch their backs for women, learn to compete against women more effectively and learn to protect themselves against women and their manipulation. More and more men will learn not to trust women. and find ways to avoid being incriminated by feminism. That’s why there are more hate against women than ever before, more men opting out from marriage and love than ever before. Men see women more as sexual object (all what women are good for) than ever before. More men would prefer video games to a woman by his side. More men would find the risk of sky diving less than the risk of marriage. So congratulations for what feminism have accomplished. Just as the patriarchy is the reason for feminism, so is feminism the reason for MRAs, PUA,and MGTOW and grass eaters and its only the beginning in the last 10 years the trends have skyrocket.

The only real construct of the patriarchy which still exist today which I reject is marriage. I will rather die alone one day and live my life alone than to subject myself to this feminist world and its war on men.
I made that commitment 15 years ago and I will never change my mind on that, I am better off on my own going my own way. And so say millions of men in the rise of the new MGTOW phenomena

I am so sick of all the whining and pissing and moaning from these so called minority groups.Fact is it is the lazy and incompetent doing the sceaming. They just want special privlidges for things they havent earned. (In the US anyways, feel sorry for the women in india with the gang rapes going on)

Try being left handed for a day! everything is designed for righthanded people from powertools to scissors and even the english language itself. You have to be able to not only use your weak hand but be competeive with people who use the hand dominately.
Maybe I should form a group and ask for special priviliges for that.

This is the first time I have ever even mentioned it in this fashoinbut, the whining about being oppressed and this bullshit just pisses me off. Womens rights groups have overreached and nows its time to set things right so its actually equal rights and not special rights.

Oppression is a powerful force exerted by one group of human beings on another to deny them their rights. Nobody is oppressing left-handed people!! Gawd. Life’s problems and random injustices aren’t oppression.

“I am so sick of all the whining and pissing and moaning from these so called minority groups.Fact is it is the lazy and incompetent doing the sceaming.”

That is so typical: blaming oppressed groups for their own oppression while the oppressors whine about being the real victims. White supremacists do it and so do heterosexual homophobes. They concoct ridiculous conspiracy theories to explain their bigotry.

And so it is with the MRM. Women still don’t have full equality. We may in a legal sense but not in practice because there are still harmful stereotypes that hold us back. The MRM not only pretends that’s not true, they perpetuate and amplify those stereotypical notions. On one hand they paint us as childlike and irresponsible but in direct contradiction to that, they claim women really do hold all the power and we’re oppressing men. Well, which is it? It can’t be both.

“”On one hand they paint us as childlike and irresponsible but in direct contradiction to that, they claim women really do hold all the power and we’re oppressing men. Well, which is it? It can’t be both.””

Ignorant assumtion.

just because you are childish and irresonsible doesnt mean you cant hold power and oppress people.

The KKK in the the south is almost exclusively Ignront people who oppress people and held power, the same could be said of the teaparty.

One thing has nothing to do with the other whatsoever.

“”Women still don’t have full equality”” yes they do, they actually enjoy overreach beyond equality and get preferential treatment.

” not in practice because there are still harmful stereotypes that hold us back”

Its up to a group to change its stereotype,for example when i was growing up mexican workers were stereotyped as being lazy ,now the are viewed as hardworking by most employers

Fact is just because you are unhappy with a stereotype doesnt mean women in general are, some actually like and profit from it

Sorry to break it to you but not all women want to be in charge of the family lot of women actually like traditional roles.Most want, to be looked at by men as objects of desire and sexuality,have doors held open,heavy lifting done by men,get their tire changed by a malepasserby ifthey have a flat ect,ect

I see a lot of whining and bitching about not having equality from you and the FRG advocates buts never any specifics just generalities that are vauge and noncommittal (exceot the lady in india ,she really does have something to complain about)

Maybe if you had a specific complaint it could be adressed but, just saying “we dont have equality” is actaully an opinion that you would have to back up with facts. let me show you the difference

Me:
I am lefthanded and think Left handed people are oppresed(opinion)
.tools are made almost exlusively for right handed people(fact) left handed people have to use these tools with their nondominate hand and compete with other using their dominate hand(fact) and so on

“just because you are childish and irresonsible doesnt mean you cant hold power and oppress people.”

Yes, it does, actually. That’s where the MRA conspiracy theory falls apart. No one else in the world believes this silliness. The KKK and the Tea Party may have contributed to the oppression of racial minorities but they didn’t/don’t have the force of the federal government and the judicial system behind them except for a few sympathizers.

“Its up to a group to change its stereotype,for example when i was growing up mexican workers were stereotyped as being lazy ,now the are viewed as hardworking by most employers”

No! It’s never the job of oppressed people to change the minds of their oppressors. It’s up to oppressors to learn to view them as fully human and equal.

“Sorry to break it to you but not all women want to be in charge of the family lot of women actually like traditional roles.”

That’s perfectly fine. Feminism is about removing systemic barriers so women can make whatever choices they wish whether it’s a stay-at-home mom or a high-powered CEO. There still are barriers to the CEO option. That’s because the men in charge of those decisions are often biased and believe women can’t do as good a job as men can. Or they hold women’s reproductive systems against them. There’s also backlash when women seek employment in fields traditionally dominated by men. Even if they are hired, they experience harassment.

Another form of entrenched discrimination is the idea that woman should be pure and save sex for marriage. We aren’t viewed as naturally sexual human beings the way men are. That leads to things like slut-shaming. Just look at the way the Republicans (and MRAs) are shaming women for wanting contraception covered under Obamacare. Tied to this is sexual violence and victim blaming. Those are things I take great exception to.

Women should be able to do the same things in life that men do without being blocked by sexist attitudes. We still have a long way to go in that regard.

“The KKK and the Tea Party may have contributed to the oppression of racial minorities but they didn’t/don’t have the force of the federal government and the judicial system behind them except for a few sympathizers.”

Are you suggesting that alleged discrimination against women has the force of the judicial system and federal government behind them? Because you’d be so wrong it’s almost funny. There are laws that are explicitly biased in favor of women, and others where the enforcement policy is unfairly biased against men or in favor of women.

If you’d like a fairly recent example look up what happened to Luis Rodriguez from OK. Long story short, his adult daughter called the police with a domestic violence complaint against his wife because she slapped her, so police beat him to death “restraining” him because it was a domestic violence complaint and in those it is policy to arrest the man. This means that in cases where the man is a victim (or even entirely uninvolved) trying to get help from the law will lead to his arrest (and probably a restraining order).

Or I could point at Title IX which is about preventing “sex discrimination” yet the judicial interpretations behind it functions specifically to use it to benefit women.

Men get much longer criminal sentences for the same crime.

VAWA (the federal domestic violence law) has language that explicitly forbids discrimination under all the usual categories (race, sex, etc) and then the following paragraph says that programs that fall under VAWA are permitted to discriminate with respect to sex if they feel it is necessary and that doing so essentially doesn’t count as discrimination. All services that receive VAWA funding must, however, serve women. So, if you are discriminating with respect to sex, and required to serve women, who is it you are discriminating against?

Women receive government benefits and access to government jobs in the US with fewer strings attached (well, one string in particular, but since that string is “must identify yourself and supply how to find you between the ages of 18 and 26 just in case we decide we want to demand you die for your government”, that seems like a big one). Failure to do so is a crime that theoretically carries a quarter million dollar fine (they haven’t actually charged anyone in a long time, because charging people for not registering paradoxically makes fewer people register), and if you don’t do it you are banned from many government services and virtually all government jobs until you do (unless you are already over 26, in which case you are banned from those things *permanently*). You also can’t get a security clearance.

I can find other examples with minimum effort in other western democracies. In Ireland, a girl under 17 cannot commit the crime of incest (but a boy can) and women can get up to 7 years while men can get up to life — it’s literally in the text of the law. There’s a very old law in Sweden (that remains on the books) that adds an extra charge for certain types of violence if a man commits them against a woman, but not in any other case.

“There still are barriers to the CEO option.”

What are those barriers and how to we dismantle them? Can you prove those barriers even exist? (And no, simply pointing out the discrepancy in results is not enough. Equality of opportunity does not equal equality of outcome.)

“That’s because the men in charge of those decisions are often biased and believe women can’t do as good a job as men can.”

Depends on the job — let me ask you a counter question: Should men and women be held to the same standards for all jobs? If so, what happens if men and women do not meet those standards at similar rates (this is mostly an issue with highly physically demanding professions)?

“Or they hold women’s reproductive systems against them.”

Most employers hold not being at work against you, regardless of source. Women’s reproductive systems tend to cause large swaths of reduced capacity or absence from work (read: having children), of which something like 80% of women will engage in at least once. I once pointed out to someone that women whose work history resembles that of a typical man (because things like overtime hours and absences from work are actually pretty gendered) receive equal or better pay that said typical man, and got told that didn’t matter because we shouldn’t expect women to hold to the “typically male life pattern” being described.

“Another form of entrenched discrimination is the idea that woman should be pure and save sex for marriage. We aren’t viewed as naturally sexual human beings the way men are.”

As opposed to being assumed to be pedophiles and rapists. Between being looked down on for being too sexual by a few people socially or being questioned by police, barred or restricted in certain jobs, being reseated on planes, and let’s not forget the occasional angry mob, etc… I know which one I’d rather pick. Let’s not forget that “pure” stereotype actually protects women from being punished for misdeeds, hell just look at how it gets portrayed when women commit sexual assault of statutory rape (hint: words like “romance” or “relationship” don’t appear when it’s a male perp).

There was a recent case at a school in which a girl had consensual sex with 5 boys, tried to force herself on another boy (but was stopped by other students), and was caught having sex with another boy (which was what brought the whole thing to light). The result? All the boys were expelled for their inappropriate conduct, but not the girl.

“Just look at the way the Republicans (and MRAs) are shaming women for wanting contraception covered under Obamacare.”

Interesting note: Obamacare (properly the Affordable Care Act, as much a misnomer as that seems to be) requires insurance companies fully cover all forms of contraception *for women*. Anything the FDA defines as a contraceptive for women must be covered, but not anything defined as a contraceptive for men. Up to and including tubal ligation (“having your tubes tied”), but no requirement to cover vasectomy or (when it finally hits the market) vasalgel (note that if a new form of female contraceptive was approved by the FDA tomorrow, insurance companies would be required to cover it), On the line of vasectomy, many urologists require married men to get written permission from their wives before they will perform one (if this were required for any procedure done to a woman, we’d be hearing about how it’s evidence that we still feel wives are the property of their husbands).

“Tied to this is sexual violence and victim blaming.”

You mean like how a man who is sexually assaulted by a woman can be forced to pay his rapist for a couple of decades if she got herself pregnant? Oh, wait, you really only mean like how if a woman gets a bit drunk and has sex with a man who has done likewise, some people don’t want to deem her a victim for exactly the same reason no one will deem the man one…

“Just look at the way the Republicans (and MRAs) are shaming women for wanting contraception covered under Obamacare. ”
Just curious, do you have any links to MRA’s against contraceptives being covered? From what I’ve seen from MRA’s is some are annoyed about lack of coverage for male contraceptives if I remember correct (are condoms covered?).

I know conservatives are pretty against contraceptive usually but I haven’t seen much of that from MRA’s, most I’ve seen are all for contraceptives and choice, and even support abortion rights for women (and also the financial abortion option for men).

From what I understand of many MRA’s theories on oppression is that in the west equality between genders is a lot lotttt closer, and that class oppression is far more prevalent and has a much greater impact. For eg, some will believe a rich woman is far less oppressed than a poor male.

On the topic of feminism, I see many MRA’s discuss feminism’s influence over laws as someone mentions above and that some of that is detrimental (earlier VAWA, primary aggressor laws, Duluth model, etc). There is far far too much generalizing though about feminism, at least what I saw on the /mensrights reddit (and usually many feminists generalize about the MRM too) which needs to stop. There are parts of the MRM and feminism that really do have the same goals, but differ a bit on the theory and framework (eg patriarchy) but both want full equality between genders. Other parts just go off the deep-end and that’s both camps. It really pisses me off seeing so much distrust between both sides when they need to get over the fighting and get to helping each other.

I think one of the biggest problems is that quite often trolls and even the more extreme people in both sides tend to comment the most in many very-popular sites so it can skew peoples views of each other. If you’re seeing mostly angry, bigoted MRA’s or feminists in comments fighting it out then you may assume one or both sides aren’t good if you aren’t exposed to the good folk. My guess is many of the good folk don’t talk much in comments, and are too busy working for good? This will leave confirmation bias to run havoc on the reputation of each side. Controversy seems to stir up more interest too, leading to more negative attention I would guess.

Archy, I’ve only seen comments from individual MRAs about contraceptive coverage under Obamacare. Stuff like keep your legs together, get to work and pay for your own damn birth control, etc. As far as I know, condoms aren’t covered.

The impact of oppression varies based on a number of factors: sex, race, class, sexual orientation, gender identity, religion, etc. As a white, lower-class woman, I have more privilege than a poor black man.

My views of MRAs are primarily based on what I see published on A Voice for Men and their views being echoed by individual commenters on other sites. Since it’s the MRA site with the most traffic and visibility, it’s the most influential and the one I take the most seriously. The hatred of women expressed on there is stark and ugly. When I see their talking points echoed by random individuals elsewhere, I’m going to assume their hatred of women is equally stark and ugly. I have yet to see a reasonable, rational MRA. Two or three I’ve conversed with online have started out that way. Interestingly, things became ugly when I tried to connect with their humanity.

Can we get along? Not as far as I’m concerned. That’s like asking a black man to make nice with the KKK.

I mainly read the reddit /mensrights + the goodmenproject for any male-related issues and the MRA’s I’ve seen there tend to be more level headed. AVFM does appear quite angry (I think of it as the Jezebel of the MRM), there are some in /mr with a lot of anger too but from what I’ve seen there are a lot who will try direct convos in a better way, outright misogyny usually gets downvoted. The one major beef I have with the /mr sub-reddit is the treating feminism as a monolith and thus a lot of generalizations against the movement. So so much distrust of feminism and I think it’s often sadly a lack of exposure to good feminists and too much exposure to bad feminists which is tainting their view so much.

There was a time when I started questioning whether feminism was good as I had an unlucky streak of seeing a lot of the bigots and not much of the good fem’s, luckily there were some at the GMP and a few other sites that really opened my eyes and helped me see the good in the movement.

I’m not overly impressed though with many MRA’s I’ve seen but /mr seems to have a fair few decent ones. Trouble is the squeaky wheel gets the grease and it’s usually the bad of a group that gets a lot of attention. I’m hoping the good ones of both groups keep the bad ones in check, the MRA’s really need to lift their game with this especially as their reputation is being torn to shreds by a lot of trolls n quite a few of the well-known MRA’s.

As of yet I don’t think most are trying to be outright bigoted like the KKK is, I think it’s an extremely disorganized group though and lots of anger that isn’t being checked. The issues are often legit and serious but the delivery can often be messed up with that anger. Hopefully more will read messages like this and push the movement in a better direction. A lot of men truly interested in equality that I have seen though seem to view themselves as egalitarians, and don’t identify with the MRM nor feminism and sorta sit back hoping for the egalitarian movement to popup and work with everyone else on issues in inequality.

Archy, I’m not familiar with GMP although someone recently commented that it was being overrun with MRAs. I’ve seen some pretty awful stuff quoted from the men’s rights sub-reddit (with net upvotes) and taken an occasional peek at the comments there.

From all I’ve seen, the vast majority of what MRAs talk about is their hostility towards women. Many of their grievances are fabricated to give them an excuse to vent their anger. AVFM is notorious for that and they pull out all the stops to incite hatred. Even worse, they regularly encourage and facilitate harassment of individual women.

If it continues in the direction it’s going, eventually it will result in violence if it hasn’t already in the case of Danielle d’Entremont at Queen’s University in Canada. She was assaulted over her objections to having a men’s rights group on campus. I dread the thought of another massacre like the one that took place in Montreal where a feminist-hating Marc Lepine killed 14 women in 1989. All it takes is pushing one unstable person too far and there always people like that out there who want to be pushed.

GMP has a mix of MRA’s, feminists (some of the editors are feminist, and the good kind at that! as in egalitarian based and not the kind many MRA’s hate), and a bunch of random men n women like myself that are egalitarian in nature. They have an interesting policy, they publish a wide variety of stuff with some of it pretty controversial but you usually find the next day an article debating against a previous article as a way to keep discussion on important topics. It is by far the least hostile men’s area I’ve seen, the comments might have a few grumpy folk but usually you get a lot of dialogue between the genders and a lot of it is great.
It’s the place where I finally met decent feminists as I had that unlucky streak of finding bad feminists in other places (extremely snarky asshole types that are extremely gyncentric, the ones that usually fit the strawman feminist trope).

Recently the /MR reddit seems to be trying to go towards a better movement, there’s more in-house guiding going on that I see urging people to be better. I usually see the women-hating stuff get downvoted there.

AVFM quite frankly is tooooo damnnn hostile and snarky. I’m not surprised you get that impression there, I get it as well there. Interestingly enough I think it was they + a canadian group who put up reward money to catch whoever harmed Danielle at QU, I guess some don’t want the anger to turn into live hostile action.

I’m no expert on it but from what I see the /MR crowd dislike the redpill crowd and the redpillers often seem to have some toxic views. Then there are some conservatives who may or may not be MRA but often get labelled that by critics who have really fucked up views. I would guess there is a good group within the mrm, and a bad group too? If it were just the AVfM crowd, redpillers, I’d probably think the MRM is lost but I am hoping the decent folk and the decent folk at /MR are the majority and become more vocal at cleaning house otherwise the movement will not gain much decent traction at helping.

The anger needs to be directed in far better ways and one tip I recommend them all is to keep track of harms against women as well so the confirmation bias doesn’t make it feel like only men get the short end of the stick. When you can see both genders have their issues, you can direct the anger better towards the real big problem whether you wanna call it society, kyriarchy or patriarchy.

It never fails to amaze me that these guys who obviously hate women and everything about them never take their beliefs to their logical end and simply turn to one another for all their emotional and sexual needs.

I don’t say “turn gay” since that’s not really possible, but behavior is not the same as orientation, as any married closeted person who finally quits deluding him/herself could tell you.

Your left hand comment actually is more like the way it is to be a woman in the world. Furniture, etc is generally designed for men (with 6′ being the standard). Try being 5′ and navigating the world. Just saying.

I just don’t know what all the fuss is about. Can’t men and women just treat each other with respect and get along as equals. Why does one have to think they are better than the other? They are both equally important and they just need to realize this. Stop blaming one another and start helping each other. You could achieve so much more with your time if you worked as a team. Life is too short to waste on non-existent problems, so stop creating them and enjoy the world as equals.

Women are not equals. Men regard women as property or pets more than anything else. If women were equals then this debate would have no merit!
As far as the law is concerned it is heavily biased towards enhancing the position of women. Women are protected by legislation from the more powerful, and women abuse this without their own merits being the cause.
If women want equality to men then they should gain a Y-Chromosome, that is the only way!

In fact woman unequal and superior rights under the law. This is the problem. Women should only have equal rights, and the law should not be supporting them elevating their rights in contrast to the rights of men. Men have had enough!
If you are a female loser, then live with it. Their are no organizations trying to elevate the unfairness that a man is a loser.
So broadcast your indignation at female inequality, all it says to me is that in spite of every advantage afforded, you are still just a loser!

There is a symmetry to the Universe at every apparent scale and it is a separation defined by Chirality. Women are not equal to men, they are opposites. If women want to change the world it is not by becoming men or demanding that they should be men that this will be accomplished. Opposites can never be equals.

The Universe itself is Chirality imbalanced. It might seem that this is accidental, but it is the basis of everything. Men and women mean so much one to another because of this fundamental state of being.

If I fought and strived to be a woman, then I would not be supporting this, I would be opposing fundamental reality.

Women, wanting to be men, as Freud suggested by penis envy is not right, and neither is man bashing by women.

Women should concentrate on making a better world according to their own talents. I am waiting, as a man for you women to create a better world. Let’s see it!

@Rober
Didnt you just state the reason why women need laws to make things equal? You said men do not consider women as equals. Well I dont care what individual men think.about women as this is a nation where the law grants us equal rights therefore women will continue to access govt and make it work for them, just as POC are doing as this is about RIGHTS.

A woman’s best chance it either to hang onto the coat-tails of a man, or to brow beat a man into giving her what she thinks that she wants. Women do not want what they say they want and if you give them equal rights they will soon learn that this is not what they want. Women have equal rights currently under legislation, it is the law, they are not property and are given the same protections under the law as any man. Any continued pursuit of the legislated fiction of equality is further proof that women are mentally deficient by all adult male standards, which is even further proof of female inferiority!

“”“just because you are childish and irresonsible doesnt mean you cant hold power and oppress people.”

Yes, it does, actually. That’s where the MRA conspiracy theory falls apart. No one else in the world believes this silliness. The KKK and the Tea Party may have contributed to the oppression of racial minorities but they didn’t/don’t have the force of the federal government and the judicial system behind them except for a few sympathizers.”””

COMPLETELY WRONG!!!!!
for staters the tea party controls the house of represenatives so, yes they do have the force of federal government behind them

The military used to be segregated so once again you are wrong.

Childish, ignorant people have historically held power,but not exclusively
My examples are correct and prove it.

Of course the clan was in charge of the government that made the jim crow laws among others look at the statements made by congress men back then.look up John E. rankin sometime and educate yourself-just a little bit please,it wont hurt.

“Stuff like keep your legs together, get to work and pay for your own damn birth control, etc. As far as I know, condoms aren’t covered.”
So they dont cover birth control for either sex??? NOT TRUE again they do for women!!!
if anything males are disxriminated against!!!
.
Maty Barra run one of the largest companies in the WORLD ,ever hear of general motors?

“””Can we get along? Not as far as I’m concerned. That’s like asking a black man to make nice with the KKK.”””

My GOD you are really out of touch with reality and a disgrace.
Being a with male I apologize to any black people out there reading this on behalf of my race.
No white woman has ever had to endure a cross being burnt on their lawn, being ran down by a pickup truck full of bigots, dragged with a chain until dead,being whipped or any of the other travesties that took place and still continue.(mainly in the south)

The article just dropped to #2 on the ignorant list, you now top it with #1 most ignorant thing i have ever read.

Fact is women in the US are not oppressed of anything they have overreached w/ feminist groups.

Wanna be a true help to your gender??? Quit trying to get /maintain special rights in the US and help out women subject to rape gangs in india instead of trying to get special treatment

“for staters the tea party controls the house of represenatives so, yes they do have the force of federal government behind them”

The House doesn’t control the federal government. It has a habit of blocking what the Dems want to do but they usually aren’t successful. Most Americans realize that the Tea Party is made up of ignorant bigots. The only reason they have any influence is because people like the Koch brothers finance them and stoke their bigotry.

Anyway, back to your assertion that women/feminists control the government. If that were true, the current efforts to chip away at Roe v. Wade wouldn’t exist. Women would hold more positions of power. Rape and sexual assault would be prosecuted more vigorously. Women would receive equal pay for equal work.

“So they dont cover birth control for either sex??? NOT TRUE again they do for women!!!
if anything males are disxriminated against!!!”

In the Hobby Lobby case, that company is fighting to be excluded from covering women’s contraceptives under the ACA. I believe there are others, too. The Supreme Court is going to weigh in on it but I won’t hold my breath for a positive outcome considering their political leanings.

What’s the relevance of Maty Barra?

Look, I’m not comparing women’s oppression with black men’s. Clearly black men in the U.S. are worse off than white women. I was saying that you can’t reasonably expect feminists to make nice with MRAs who want to turn back the clock on equality and TAKE AWAY women’s rights.

“Wanna be a true help to your gender??? Quit trying to get /maintain special rights in the US and help out women subject to rape gangs in india instead of trying to get special treatment”

How about we work on equal rights for women first? We have no special rights. India has a more firmly entrenched patriarchal society than Western countries do but the underlying problem is the same: the sexist belief that women are inferior to men.

You:”On one hand they paint us as childlike and irresponsible but in direct contradiction to that, they claim women really do hold all the power and we’re oppressing men. Well, which is it? It can’t be both.””

Me;“just because you are childish and irresonsible doesnt mean you cant hold power and oppress people.””The KKK in the the south is almost exclusively Ignront people who oppress people and held power, the same could be said of the teaparty.
One thing has nothing to do with the other whatsoever.””

You:Yes, it does, actually. That’s where the MRA conspiracy theory falls apart. No one else in the world believes this silliness. The KKK and the Tea Party may have contributed to the oppression of racial minorities but they didn’t/don’t have the force of the federal government and the judicial system behind them except for a few sympathizers.”””

Me:COMPLETELY WRONG!!!!!
for starers the tea party controls the house of Representatives so, yes they do have the force of federal government behind them

You:The House doesn’t control the federal government. It has a habit of blocking what the Dems want to do but they usually aren’t successful. Most Americans realize that the Tea Party is made up of ignorant bigots. The only reason they have any influence is because people like the Koch brothers finance them and stoke their bigotry.

Your original assertion was you cannot be childlike and irresponsible and also hold power agruement was that is was not only possible but that it had already taken place and I used the tea party as one example.

And holding the house is of great power for several reasons first and foremost ALL revenue bills come exclusively from the house.Second they have the power to veto ANY legislation. They are 100% successful in blocking whatever they want of the dems, thats the way the legislative process works.
This gives them power within the federal government. Maybe not exclusive power but power none the less.

So IT is a indisputable FACT that childish and irresponsible people can and have held power.

Its is NOT a contradiction to say someone is childishas well as irresponsible and to also say they have power and are oppressing people. Its just a nonsensical statement the definitions of the characteristic prevent it from being contradictory as they have no correlation to one another.while childlike and irresposible may be seen as related the pair has absolutely no relationship with power or opression.

you really are clueless the ACA(quit calling it obamacare dumbass)
was passed when democrats held the senate and house during obamas first term when pelosie was speaker of the house. My god you would think feminist would celebrate her as a role model and an example of their work. fuck sakes you dont even know she passed the ACA in the house.

If you are that uninformed you might want to look up real facts before posting.

not a member of MRM but am thinking of joining after this.
I used that in the context of an example of how men were discriminated against. Never said one word about it being women doing the discriminating.(yes men can discriminate against men)

Think your just making excuses anyways because reality does no coincide with your perception of what i have written.

Me:“So they dont cover birth control for either sex??? NOT TRUE again they do for women!!!
if anything males are disxriminated against!!!”
You:In the Hobby Lobby case, that company is fighting to be excluded from covering women’s contraceptives under the ACA. I believe there are others, too. The Supreme Court is going to weigh in on it but I won’t hold my breath for a positive outcome considering their political leanings.

So the womens groups think they are entitled to something men never have had!
Birth control should be a personal responsibility for both parties,while it is cost effective for insurance companies to pay for it ultimately it is not a right. I really am unsure of why anyone would think their birth control is someone elses financial responsibility. I cant imagine going to my employer and demand they supply me with condoms. Please explain to me why some other than yourself should be required to pay for this.*****************************************************************************************************************************************************************************************************************************
You:Can we get along? Not as far as I’m concerned. That’s like asking a black man to make nice with the KKK.

You:Look, I’m not comparing women’s oppression with black men’s.

Yes you just did the word”like” in the context you used it in is for illustrating a comparison.

Female contraceptives aren’t equivalent to condoms. There are reasons they’re prescribed that sometimes have nothing to do with birth control. Also, they’re prescription drugs and that’s the whole point. One class of drugs shouldn’t be excluded from a health care plan. We all know employers want to exclude them; it’s because Republicans think women should be barefoot and pregnant.

I used the word “like” in the context of cozying up with one’s oppressors, not the experience of oppression.

call it whatever you want, fact of the matter statements like that are intended to connect slavery through subliminal mnemonic devices
just like when you teach a child numbers and letters and tell them to reference familiar object that look like them. To this day the number 6 reminds me of a vase my mother owned.

you were infact trying to not only compare your expirience but connect the two. It is in rudimentary physocology courses.

You:How about we work on equal rights for women first? We have no special rights.

Yes you do
free birthcontrol
preferential treatment by employers
preferential treatment in the justice/family courts
Dont have to register for selective service.
Given less physical jobs at same pay
preferential treatment for scholarships/education

Free birth control: false. No health care is free. It’s covered by insurance that women pay for.
Then buy whatever insurance suits your needs if you are paying for it. Dont like it don buy it that simple.

Preferential treatment by employers?? To be paid less for equal work? To be denied employment or promotions based on our sex? Yeah, right.
Women work less hours and hours vary more- want equal pay put in the hours and be reliable. Its not about discriminating its about who make companies more money simple.

Don’t have to register for selective service. Okay.
Given less physical jobs at same pay.balony
You dont have a clue I
n construction and manufacturing it is almost universally accepted that if there is heavy lifting a man should help her out, even though he would be expected to do it all by himself. They are usually about as suited to it as men are to breastfeeding a baby(can be done but requires a lot more time and energy from others)

Preferential treatment for scholarships/education. I don’t know anything about that one except it’s a common MRA talking point so it’s probably BS.

So the fact is like most time you call BS on something you know absolutely nothing about
*****************************************************************************************************

“India has a more firmly entrenched patriarchal society than Western countries do but the underlying problem is the same: the sexist belief that women are inferior to men.”

If womens groups were truly concerned about womens rights the would try to solve the biggest problems first and pickup the piddly stuff afterward. (although there isnt any here)

You were complaining about barriers for women being CEO, i used mary barra as an example that women couldnt be CEO. (I wonder how many CEOs are left handed or red heads , maybe people with size 12 or larger)

Corp. america is in buisness to make money if a woman can make them more money they will hire her as ceo. its that simple

There are No red heads NO native americans, NO left handed people so what? maybe at this time the most capable people happen to be men.

When i went to school and am in the same age group as the majority of COE’s females show little interest in buisness classes they were more interested in forensics and biology botony. fact is there was a lack of interest and a smaller pool of women to chose from means less will make it to the top.

Even so what would you like to see done that doesnt require a majic wand

Let me address this right now: “a campaign that accuses women of making false rape reports.”

I take GREAT OFFENSE to ‘rape’ being thrown around the way it is because my MOTHER was a victim of an ACTUAL rape! I refuse to believe that because you ‘regret it’ means you were raped; I regret lots of things, yes, I even regret having sexual encounters with some women, does that mean they ‘raped’ me? No!

Furthermore, Men are apparently UNABLE to be raped/molested unless it’s by another male. I was molested when I was 6, yes, molested, by a female 9 (I think 9) years older than me, yet even my counselors thought it was something to laugh at! I was a 6 year old child, yet only one person I’ve ever talked to hasn’t laughed at it. Men take it as a fucking joke, and say things like ‘oh, nice job’, ‘what a pimp’, etc.; and women, feminists in particular, tell me that I wasn’t molested, that I am incapable of being molested by a woman; for fucks’ sake my ex-gf (feminist) actually laughed in my face when I told her! Imagine how different this would have been if I had a vagina instead of a penis; the person who molested me might actually have been arrested, and I would have been situated with a counselor to help me through it all. Instead, I get laughed at by you self-righteous assholes who think women are incapable of being the victimizer. And yes, I do think that feminism is pushing this bullshit onto society. Being told I was never molested, and that I need to get over it has left a bad taste in my mouth. So, here’s what I think: Fuck Feminism. In fact, Fuck Everybody; Men and Women, You’re all a bunch of power-hungry, greedy, assholes.

(on a side-note, if you can accept the fact that I, a man was molested by a woman, you’re a pretty cool person, and I un-fuck you for understanding that men must be able to consent too :) )

What is it you want anyway?please be specific like
free birth control
laws so women have preferential status for hiring of CEOs
custody preference over men in child custody

and so on
Dont say dumb things like get rid of stereo types- these are things that cannot be legislated or instituted widespread Women are the only ones who can change peoples perception of them.and guess what todays womens movements dont help!

They actually remind me of the tea party, changing fact to fit their views instead of the other way around.

Women are incapable of directly competing with men and this deficiency can not be easily overcome and so the women’s rights movement has skewed the legislation in their favour. Women are incapable then of supporting themselves in a mans world and yet rely upon men to supplement their standard of living. This is clearly not equality but is legislated welfare for women at the expense of men.

The fact is that if a baby is born women not only assume little or no financial responsibility themselves for the baby, but the man typically is so screwed over that he is forced into financial responsibility for the woman also. Marriage and divorce are the two methods women utilize to achieve wealth. Women are not equals and suggesting so is a joke!

In fact having a vagina itself is an income generating benefit as it is clearly supported by the government and the structure of the welfare system. Having one illegitimate child affords direct support by the government that exceeds the cost of the child. This creates an incentive for the woman who achieves an increased benefit herself for each additional child. By the time she has produced several bastards she is enjoying a standard of living far exceeding that of the average hard working man. I say kiss my ass to the female welfare system!

When a woman is incapable of directly competing with men to achieve a desired lifestyle, incapable of fooling a man or the system into supporting her financially for the rest of her life, then she feels cheated by the Universe and by default becomes a feminist!

Hypergamy is the ultimate selective measure that females employ in making their selections, without it nothing works for women. It certainly is not equality issues that hold women back but the female inherent deficiencies that do this!

In fact the Nazis, thought they were entitled to advantage for mere accidents of birth. The same with royalty and those born rich!
I am not Arian, royalty or born rich, these are ascribed statuses.
Women are not superior in any way except they were born cunts. Just like the Nazis!

WTF are you on about. If you’re referring to strength differences by gender I have some news for you. Automation and machinery have largely removed the need for physical strength, and every year continue to remove that need whereas the need for intelligence and using our mental capital is in greater need. Women can keep up just fine as long as governments and societies do not oppress them and allow them the chance to work. Not every job requires big muscles…

This isn’t a man’s world, it’s a world with humans and they both need each other. Women do enormous amounts of work, often unpaid which contributes massive amounts to the overall world’s economy and future. Childcare, care of the elderly, etc is not free, welfare is a sign of a society that gives a damn about it’s people especially when times get tough.

Take a couple for instance that have a kid, and he decides to leave but doesn’t pay enough child support. What do you expect her to do? Work the same hours as a male without a child? Welfare helps to share the burden for the future generation, who grow up to pay the tax for the next generation. Better to ensure a decent quality of life for those kids which will most likely lead to a higher quality economy as healthier, happier kids most likely have better opportunities to work, pay tax, etc. Not to mention it’s just a decent thing to do to help out those in need. Show a lil respect FFS.

Also men do not receive more money for equivalent positions because of a male conspiracy. Men in the same position are simply more flexible and able and useful. Companies are not into paying more out to men for no reason. Women are simply of less economic value to a company because they are more limited and their skills and abilities and willingness is less. I guarantee that if women produced as much, was as dependable, and capable then their value then they would receive the exact same renumeration.
An office girl is hardly going to hang a bathroom cabinet if requested but a man will! An office girl will not do many things a man with the same title will perform.
Get a grip on who you are!

interesting observation though that men had to struggle and endure hard physical labor and now only when mens intelllect has made the job easier and less physical do women try to step in,AFTER the hard work has been done.

It’s more along the lines of the women at the time were too busy raising children, I think I remember seeing something that basically said women were perpetually in a cycle of pregnancy, have a kid, and pregnant soon after for some of human history. Their contributions were still very much needed though but were better suited to the caretaker role before we had access to baby formula, refrigeration, etc. Even still many women do work whilst looking after kids in all of human history. It just was easier to have men do more physically hard jobs as they had both an advantage and weren’t the ones needed for breastfeeding.

There were women doing dangerous jobs too such as working in toxic factories. Remember that childbirth IS quite risky and dangerous, a hugeee amount of women died from inadequate medical care in the past and even today it still happens. Life isn’t easy for either gender, women did some damn hard work too.

Also, if women were of equal economic value to a company on a wage or salary basis, in this highly competitive environment, then companies would exclusively seek out female employees because their labour would be available at a significant discount, and this would provide a company with a significant economic advantage over the competition. However companies do not stack their employment roles with women because a female employee for the most part is not equivalent to a male in terms of quality or quantity of performance.
Males make more and deserve more by their merits, and are well worth a wage premium over women because they are simply mostly better!

You also have to consider that men think in a linear way that women do not. The product of male linear thinking is independent and creative in a results and efficiency oriented organization that female circular thinking is not. Linear thinking is pragmatic and highly valued by employers and this is reflected in wage premiums over women. Men make more than women, because men are even more valuable than the higher wage/salary would indicate and even so are a bargain even at the higher renumeration rate.

Men are dogs;
Cats might catch and dispatch the occasional mouse in the household but there are many more economically efficient ways to rid home of mice that make a cats existence superfluous!
Dogs are working beasts. They help us find large game, foul, and small game; Hunting is an economic supplement to the household. Dogs help us control livestock by herding them and contribute in this way to the economy of the household. Dogs perform security services for us and our property, and in fact will fight to the death protecting us and ours, and even a cat; Cats never do this, they are far too selfish!
Cats are pretty much useless but never tell a cat so!
Men are dogs and so cats shouldn’t be pushing their luck too far unless they want to become dog food!

Unfortunately this article is defining oppression in a way that only allows for certain kinds of oppression to be included. Aka oppression as patriachical power. But what about the proven bias against men in costody battles around the world? Is that not a form of oppression? What happens when you see a women hit a man? That a growing number of men are in abusive relationships and are laughed/shamed into silence by society at large… Is that not oppression? Or even economically… That men are expected to pay for dates and must fall in line if they want to find a partner, that women are able to get into establishments for free and are not expected to pay for things tht men do in order for men to be considered “worthy” of a second date… Is that not oppression? To laugh things like this off or to roll your eyes (regardless of your gender) is to prove the point. Sexism is not an all/nothing scale but rather a spectrum of inequality.

Male victims of abuse are not being “oppressed” because they have never been under the control of women throughout most of history, there is no comparable power structure there. There just isnt any significant number of men seeking DV assistance and those that are are most likely being abused by a parent, not a partner. It cant be treated differently because it’s probably not reported all that much — but more importantly the entire system that one would report to, law enforcement and the court system, is largely dominated by MEN. Why do you guys have so much trouble admitting that it’s really men who not like and/or want to support other men? Because feminists fight for EVERYTHING regarding women and children, but men are more than capable of opening up their mouths. The reason the MRM gets nowhere is because it’s a hate movement and cares more about blame than solutions. And there can be no solutions when they cannot recognize the cause, psst, its not feminism and how anyone could argue it was when men have been experiencing most of these problems well before feminism is beyond me. Y’all are just illogical, it’s loco logic if you will, so why even bother trying? You’re probably gonna respond back to me with some emotional screed that is devoid of fact and just based on stuff you read on the internet elsewhere. Well, again, what’s the point? Feminists who argue these issues actually do real research and seem to understand the law better. That you immediately tend to disagree with them doesnt say anything good about you other than you believe men are always right, women always wrong and my way or the highway. Life dont work like that.

Custody battles aren’t “oppressing” anyone. If society viewed fathers as capable caregivers on a regular basis and the only way to do this is by fathers ACTUALLY ENGAGING in more caregiving then things will change. I know men really dont like to hear this but men put themselves at a disadvantage in family court because most do not take an active caregiving role once the child is born. Regardless, divroce stats are clear — MOST cases end with some form of joint custody and when fathers ask they tend to get it — the real issue here is, a lot of fathers do not ask. This is such a distorted issue within MRMI am sure whatever your response is it will be another emotional screed after reading some headlines on the interwebz so have at it..

Men are not oppressed “because” they are men. This does not mean men do not experience hardships or disadvantages. The terminology that the MRM embraces rubs directly in the face of all the work groups who have truly suffered oppression via law, institutionalized discrimination, racism, sexism, etc, etc, etc have done. Part of the problem with the MRM is its full of people stemming from a privileged group (namely white people), and no privilege does not at all imply leading a privileged life as it is so distorted by white people who care not to understand it, who are co-opting the language of real historical and successful social justice movements. This is bothersome to many and rightfully so.

The issue of patriarchy affects both men and women. Men oppress other men, and this internalized misandry is a powerful thing. And its real. We spend too much time trying to argue that one is worse than the other and not enough time agreeing that they exist and that feedback into each other.

In another your of articles you make an excellent point.

“This is what the Men’s Rights Movement teaches its members. Especially vulnerable, lonely young men who have a hard time relating to women. It teaches them that women, and especially feminist women, are to blame for their unhappiness.”

The problem, though, exists in the language used to describe what are common problems. Every time someone uses ‘Down with the patriarchy’ as a tag, there’s a person out there who uses that phrase to show how a man’s modern problems were created by feminism. The saddest part is that main idea behind that phrase benefits all parties: men, women, transgendered, and everything in-between. How can you expect someone looking for an answer about there own identity to embrace something they no little about with the kind of language we use today to describe it? No matter how right the underlying issues may be, we will never get those on the cusp to buy into the realizations of these issues when the words and phrases we use can be so easily misunderstood and distorted. Yes the patriarchy oppresses so many women and men in their own ways, but do you really believe that kind of language is constructive? As you’ve probably seen on a regular basis, these phrases are the backbone of an MRA movement because it’s so easy to convince someone that doesn’t know the issues.

“Just look at the way they want to attack you and change who you are. They are the ones that make you less of a man. See how they hate you? CIShet. Patriarch. Neanderthal. Reprogram (‘social programming’). Phallocracy: they want to take away what defines you as a man.”

How many of those phrases do you use in your articles? How does the language you use get misconstrued as an attack against men? I am no way saying the underlying ideas you have are wrong, but the language you choose to use is used against you.

So I challenge you to examine the language you use. The next wave of thought shouldn’t be an examination and deconstruction of society; it should be an examination of how we communicate these vital ideas in an inclusive manner.

It doesnt really matter what the MRM “thinks” resulted in disadvantages for men it only matters what the REAL cause is, and that is patriarchy. That is why the MRM cannot affect any real change. Most of their “solutions” are based in a misunderstanding of the role of govt, the law and the constitution.

You can’t even read, I dont know why I bothered. You are not interested in thoughtful discourse, but no one in the MRM is, so guess im not surprised.

I clearly said that the cause of issues within the MRM is patriarchy. I dont know where you got “mens rights group is about patriarchy.” If it correctly identified the cause of its issues they would probably already be advancing on most of their issues. They wrongfully blame feminism and thus will remain an angry voice on the web.

The issue of patriarchy affects both men and women. Men oppress other men, and this internalized misandry is a powerful thing. And its real. We spend too much time trying to argue that one is worse than the other and not enough time agreeing that they exist and that feedback into each other.

In another your of articles you make an excellent point.

“This is what the Men’s Rights Movement teaches its members. Especially vulnerable, lonely young men who have a hard time relating to women. It teaches them that women, and especially feminist women, are to blame for their unhappiness.”

The problem, though, exists in the language used to describe what are common problems. Every time someone uses ‘Down with the patriarchy’ as a tag, there’s a person out there who uses that phrase to show how a man’s modern problems were created by feminism. The saddest part is that main idea behind that phrase benefits all parties: men, women, transgendered, and everything in-between. How can you expect someone looking for an answer about there own identity to embrace something they no little about with the kind of language we use today to describe it? No matter how right the underlying issues may be, we will never get those on the cusp to buy into the realizations of these issues when the words and phrases we use can be so easily misunderstood and distorted. Yes the patriarchy oppresses so many women and men in their own ways, but do you really believe that kind of language is constructive? As you’ve probably seen on a regular basis, these phrases are the backbone of an MRA movement because it’s so easy to convince someone that doesn’t know the issues.

“Just look at the way they want to attack you and change who you are. They are the ones that make you less of a man. See how they hate you? CIShet. Patriarch. Neanderthal. Reprogram (‘social programming’). Phallocracy–they want to take away what defines you as a man.”

How many of those phrases do you use in your articles? How does the language you use get misconstrued as an attack against men? I am no way saying the underlying ideas you have are wrong, but the language you choose to use is used against you.

So I challenge you to examine the language you use. The next wave of thought shouldn’t be an examination and deconstruction of society; it should be an examination of how we communicate these vital ideas in an inclusive manner.

The women’s rights movement does not want equality, because women are not equals to men but opposites. The WRM want legislated advantages over men in order to make equal what is not equal, on a basis that is totally not dependant upon a woman’s value economically. The WRM is a welfare system for women that they want to develop the advantage even further than they already have. Pretty soon, if they have their way, nothing will work, the system will collapse, and as a consequence everyone will suffer, because it is not women who set the standard but men.
Leeches, crybabies and losers have always existed.

1. Like garbage, the men’s rights movement does not get airtime on TV …..unlike the feminist movement which gets several hours a day devoted to it on daytime TV shows, current affairs programs, political debate programs and in the news.

2. Like garbage, the men’s rights movement does not get to influence the education system…. unlike the feminist movement which does.

3. Like garbage, the men’s rights movement does not get to sit on committees and influence political policy all the way up to the level of the UN….. unlike the feminist movement which does.

4. Like garbage, men’s rights issues do not get frequent exposure on platforms like TED Talks….. unlike feminist issues which appear hundreds of times on platforms like TED.

5. Like garbage, the MRM is not something politicians admit to supporting or associating themselves with (it would be career suicide) …… unlike the feminist movement which many politicians publicly support and admit to being feminists.

6. Like garbage, nobody really cares about men’s rights issues…… unlike feminist issues which always provokes outrage and concern – even when they are utterly ludicrous, nonsensical and insulting, such as Anita Sarkeesian (who, as you can see, got to spread her toxic lies on TED).

7. Like garbage, society does not care to go near men’s rights issues or the men’s rights movement if it can help it. Men’s right’s issues are treated like garbage – especially by feminists. Even issues like the rape of underage boys by adult women is treated as garbage by feminists.

Ironically the only group that really cares about anyone is women, especially mothers. You are right, men do not care about men, and this country is run by men, so….??!?!

1. Like garbage, the men’s rights movement does not get airtime on TV*********this is called lack of awareness. The reason this.”movement” gets no mainstream play is because they arent a movement that actually seeks to help men but are in fact just anti-feminist. They lack accurate historical perspective and most of their positions are rooted in a serious misunderstanding of the role of govt, how govt works, and most importantly the law.

2. Like garbage, the men’s rights movement does not get to influence the education system*********this claim always cracks me up. You got proof of this influence? That this lame movement believes such nonsense shows they also understand nothing about public education.

3. Like garbage, the men’s rights movement does not get to sit on committees and influence political policy all the way up to the level of the UN*********women make up half the population on the planet, therefore their voices are relevant to everything and they fight for women and children. There is no reason why an uneducated amd uninformed member of some ineffective movement in the US should have any influence when real policy is being discussed; they dont even understand the law!

4. Like garbage, men’s rights issues do not get frequent exposure on platforms like TED Talks********* nor should they because they erroneouly blame feminism for all their issues. Theyre simply not living in the reality the majority of the rest of us are, therefore no one is interested in what they have to say outside of their own movement bc they have no sound solutions to any of their issues.

5. Like garbage, the MRM is not something politicians admit to supporting or associating themselves with (it would be career suicide)*********correct bc the movement is full of hate. The only politician I could ever see aligning itself with MRM is an extreme conservative. The first step to holding office is to get elected so I dont know why you act surprised that a politician would steer clear of extremism.

6. Like garbage, nobody really cares about men’s rights issues********* what dont you get? Women and children have different concerns that SHOULD be addressed. And they arent addressed at the expense of men. Of course people care about mens issues but the MRM is not fighting for them. The MRMs entire movement can be reduced down to (mostly ) angry white dudes who want to pay less child support. The majority of discussion revolving around “fathers rights” in the manosphere is about money NOT their children.

7. Like garbage, society does not care to go near men’s rights issues or the men’s rights movement if it can help it. Men’s right’s issues are treated like garbage – especially by feminists. Even issues like the rape of underage boys by adult women is treated as garbage by feminists.*********Last sentence is a complete lie. Women care more about abuse of children than men do, do not kid yourself. Further when a female teacher engages in sexual activity with a male teen it is ALWAYS men congratulating him (unless they think the woman is ugly) and arguing that no teen boy could possibly be adversely affected by such a relatioship. Thats patriarchy for ya! And oh yeah that brings me to another issue within the MRM, they lack consistency- about everything.

8. Even though there are a thousand and one platforms for feminists to promote feminism, when a bunch of men and women try to get together and have a conference to discuss and promote men’s rights issues the Marriott hotel which is booked to host it gets a bunch of terrorist threats (presumably by feminists) and has*********Wtf, that disgusting site is NOT a news site and the actual letter received from the hotel can only be viewed by subscribers, ie Elam is hiding something. I read coverage of these alleged death threats. The police spokesperson themselves said when the hotel contacted them regarding security for the event the hotel never mentioned any threats nor ever made a report of same. It is completely normal for a hotel/convention center to require security for ANY event. It seems more likely that if the hotel wasnt already aware of the movement via the web they might have taken a gander at the www themselves after receiving what was more than likely calls asking why they would host such an awful group of people and the threats were mostly likely “I’m gonna make sure you lose business for this.” The hotel only cares about money and safety. The MRM shouldve expected the backlash bc they post their hate on the internet for anyone to see.

“…Ironically the only group that really cares about anyone is women, especially mothers….”

You are being blatantly sexist.

What you are saying is just as offensive and toxic as someone saying “The only group that really cares about anyone is whites, especially blond, blue eyed Arians”.

Your claim is just as bigoted as any Nazi claim about jews or gays. This is why feminists are often called ‘feminazis’. Just imagine all the men who risk their lives on a daily basis to help other people (including women). Your are spitting in their face. You should be ashamed.

“…. You are right, men do not care about men, and this country is run by men, so….??!?!…”

‘What you say makes no sense. If men don’t care about men then the feminist theory of a ‘patriarchy’ must be wrong …. even if the world was run by men (which it is not).

In two sentences you have shown yourself to be sexist, hateful and illogical.

“..The reason this.”movement” (MRA’s) gets no mainstream play is because they arent a movement that actually seeks to help men but are in fact just anti-feminist…”

Some of the issues addressed by MRA’s are the criminal court system which is provably sexist against men, the divorce courts which are unfair to men, the lack of support for male victims of rape and domestic abuse, the rape of boys etc etc.

In what way is addressing issues like these not helping men? Please can you explain with facts, reason, logic etc.

Also why is being ‘anti feminist’ incompatible with helping men? Being anti feminist is helpful to men in the same way that being anti nazi was helpful to jews. Being anti feminist means opposing feminist ideology (“men are sociopaths” etc).

“…They (MRA’s) lack accurate historical perspective …”

In what way? Please provide a specific example.

(re: feminism and education) “You got proof of this influence?”

It is well known that prominent feminists influence state controlled educational policies, all the way up to the UN level.

“..(MRA’s) erroneouly blame feminism for all their issues. …”

Please pick three key issues addressed by MRA’s and explain how they are blaming feminism.

“…bc the (MRA) movement is full of hate. …”

Please provide an example of this hate.

“…The first step to holding office is to get elected so I dont know why you act surprised that a politician would steer clear of extremism…”

Please explain why addressing issues on male inequality in society should be classified as ‘extremism’.

“…Women and children have different concerns that SHOULD be addressed. And they arent addressed at the expense of men. …”

Feminism claims men deliberately oppress women to create a society which benefits men at the expense of women (AKA ‘patriarchy theory’). Therefore within feminism is the core notion that men’s power, rights, freedoms and rights must be curtailed for women to be free.

Feminism does not address the concerns or rights of children. Feminism does NOT oppose the hitting of children. Feminists regularly appear on daytime TV defending their right to hit children. Feminists recently defended a feminist professor (Adele Mercier) who claimed the rape of underage boys by adult women was NOT really rape at all (because according to her underage boys CAN give consent). Feminists applaud women abandoning their babies so they can go back to work within weeks of giving birth, even if they can well afford to take care of the infant. Feminism promotes the idea that men (fathers) are not necessary for upbringing, even though they are essential. As a result of feminism children spend less time with their mother AND fathers than ever before, and the effects are increased rates of criminality, violence, depression, self harm, suicide etc etc.

“..Of course people care about mens issues but the MRM is not fighting for them. ….”

Please provide some kind of tangible evidence to support both of these claims.

If society cared as much about men’s issues as women’s issues then they would presumably get an equal amount of media exposure, state/ charity funded support groups and political exposure.

However, as we agree, they get none of these things.

“…. Of course people care about mens issues but the MRM is not fighting for them…”

Please provide some sort of evidence to support your claim that the MRA is not fighting for men’s issues.

“..The majority of discussion revolving around “fathers rights” in the manosphere is about money NOT their children…”

The issue of being denied access to their children (and their children being denied access to them) is a key issue which you fail to acknowledge.

Money is important.

“…Even issues like the rape of underage boys by adult women is treated as garbage by feminists.*********Last sentence is a complete lie….”

Then why are prominent feminists defining the rape of underage boys by women as ‘not rape’?

Why is the rest of the feminist movement quick to defend other feminists who say such vile thing?

Are YOU going to publicly condemn another feminist for making such a claim? Are YOU going to write letters, start a protest, make a blog, make a youtube video etc to express your disgust at the idea of trivialising and excusing the rape of underage boys in the 21st century?

As a feminist what have YOU done to show your concern for this issue?

“…Further when a female teacher engages in sexual activity with a male teen it is ALWAYS men congratulating him (unless they think the woman is ugly) and arguing that no teen boy could possibly be adversely affected by such a relatioship. Thats patriarchy for ya! ..”

Correct. And yes that IS patriarchy. In patriarchy men’s feelings do not count for much and men are expected to endue abuse, trauma, danger and hard working conditions. For thousands of year men did all the dangerous and unhealthy jobs and fought all the wars.

When society does not offer emotional sympathy or support the psychological coping mechanism is to shrug off the pain and try and kid yourself it is not important, or even that it is funny.

People only say “I’m starving” or “I’m in pain” when there are other people around who they think will show sympathy and help them.

When no sympathy or help is available people suppress their pain, suffering and make light of it … “Oh I’ll be alright, I ate some food a few days ago” … “It’s only a broken leg, I can still crawl to the nearest roadside and flag down a car”.. etc etc

False analogy since there is no evidence that only whites care about people. While my comment was inflammatory its also mostly true. Most groups working towards equality and childrens issues especially are helmed by women. The ones helmed by men have nothing to do with the MRM nor will they ever because they actually have a real mission to address and dont need to be bogged down with hateful extremism.

“‘What you say makes no sense. If men don’t care about men then the feminist theory of a ‘patriarchy’ must be wrong …. even if the world was run by men (which it is not).”******actually this comment makes no sense.

“Some of the issues addressed by MRA’s are the criminal court system which is provably sexist against men, the divorce courts which are unfair to men, the lack of support for male victims of rape and domestic abuse, the rape of boys etc etc.”

Some of those issues are valid but all they have is rhetoric about them not action. Also all their positions are based on a flawed understanding of those issues.

“Also why is being ‘anti feminist’ incompatible with helping men? Being anti feminist is helpful to men in the same way that being anti nazi was helpful to jews. Being anti feminist means opposing feminist ideology (“men are sociopaths” etc).”

Because feminism has NOTHING to do with these issues. That the “movement” doesnt understand that is why they have no outside support! Also stop with the nazi analogied. Im a jew and you do not get to appropriate another subgroups issues to supoort yours. Its disgusting inflammatory and irrelevant rhetoric.

“In what way? Please provide a specific example.”

All of them. They act like history did not occur in the way that it did and construct a false history to propr up their positions. Ex- the entire concept of male disposability has nothing whatsoever to do with feminism or women for that matter. It would, however, be a more reasoned argument to be made as a result of patriarchy.

“Itis well known that prominent feminists influence state controlled educational policies, all the way up to the UN level.”

How the UN is relevant here I have no idea. I live in the US and im pretty aure you do as well so do try and focus. Anyway you have no proof and none of this is well known. None of you know anything about education so dont try and act like you do, its embarrassing. My father was an educator his entire career and i actually do k ow what i am talking about and argue allthe time in favor of morr voc ed schools which male teens in high school would benefit from breatly. Changes in the way we teach did start in the 80s but has more to do with educational theories such as multiple intelligences and the like. Seriously yiu ned to stop resding biased material and do research totry and understand how public education really works.

Whatre you talking about? They blame all their issues on feminism! LOL

“please explain why addressing issues on male inequality in society should be classified as ‘extremism’.”

Read the MRM websites, enough said. You dont seem capable of reading them objectively though so….

“Feminism claims men deliberately oppress women to create a society which benefits men at the expense of women (AKA ‘patriarchy theory’). Therefore within feminism is the core notion that men’s power, rights, freedoms and rights must be curtailed for women to be free.”

Thats a poor understanding of feminism right there. The underlying principle of feminism has always been that women are people and deserve rights. Women do not have more rights than men and you could never prove otberwise. The keyword there is RIGHTS.

Feminism nor feminists (and I dont mean radfems which is the basis for all the MRMs arguments against feminism) doesnt believe any of that and I wont waste my time responding to it.

“If society cared as much about men’s issues as women’s issues then they would presumably get an equal amount of media exposure, state/ charity funded support groups and political exposure.”

I doubt it because womens issues are largely related to law, mens are mostly cultural issues but they dont believe in patriarchy so they will continue to prop up and perpetuate a system that will cause those issues to remain issues!

However, as we agree, they get none of these things.

“..The majority of discussion revolving around “fathers rights” in the manosphere is about money NOT their children…”

“The issue of being denied access to their children (and their children being denied access to them) is a key issue which you fail to acknowledge.”

For some it is but the majority of convos about fathers rights online seem tobe focused more on the money issue.

“Then why are prominent feminists defining the rape of underage boys by women as ‘not rape’?”

Proof of this? Im pretty sure it was Tucker Carlson recently who claimed a teen boy could not be raped by his teacher if he wanted it. Thats pretty disgusting.

“Correct. And yes that IS patriarchy. In patriarchy men’s feelings do not count for much and men are expected to endue abuse, trauma, danger and hard working conditions. For thousands of year men did all the dangerous and unhealthy jobs and fought all the wars.”

And yet the MRM does not believe in the existence of patriarchy, which is again, the cause of ALL of their issues.

“When society does not offer emotional sympathy or support the psychological coping mechanism is to shrug off the pain and try and kid yourself it is not important, or even that it is funny.”

Your point. Because this is how we teach gender. We convince boys that certain emotions and behaviors are feminine and the worst insult you can give to a boy/man is to be called a girl/woman/list feminine epithet here, so boys are forced to shutter certain emotional expression in their formative years. This directly contributes to why there is more violence against men, why men go to the doctor less, why men have higher rates of suicide, why men take risky laborious jobs rather than seek an education for something better and so on and so forth. We teach our youth, both boys and girls, really fucked up things about gender. How is this a surprise to you?

“..stop with the nazi analogied. Im a jew and you do not get to appropriate another subgroups issues to supoort yours. Its disgusting inflammatory and irrelevant rhetoric….”

The nazi threat narrative, while devastating for jews, also affected the entire population of the western world (and beyond). 55 million people died in WW2. All of society was emotionally traumatised, financially devastated and physically reduced to rubble. The repercussions of husbands, wives, children, parents being killed in the war are still affecting society today. I’m afraid you cannot claim the nazi oppression, and the threat narrative which allowed it all to happen, as just a jewish issue.

Comparing feminist threat narratives about men to nazi threat narratives about jews (or white society’s threat narratives about black people) is either a valid or invalid comparison. Whether you are a jew or not has no bearing on the validity/ invalidity of the comparison.

If the comparison upsets you it might be because feminism is an ideology of hate, rather than because my comparison is not valid.

I would hope that, as a jew, you might be more inclined to be wary of threat narratives when you hear them being relentlessly repeated.

Oppression never exists without a threat narrative. The foundation of the oppression of black people and jews (and many other groups, such as Iraqis) was a threat narrative which sought to do the following:

1. depict them (jews/ blacks) as a threat to civilised society
2. Increase the public perception of the invulnerability of these groups, while emphasising or exaggerating their own vulnerability to these groups
3. increase the public perception of the agency of these groups, while decreasing the public perception of their own agency
4. Decrease the public’s empathy towards these groups (dehumanize them)
5. Increase the public’s sense of vulnerability and powerlessness to them
6. Depict any crimes or negative attitudes of individuals within the group as representative of the group as a whole
7. Depict the group’s resistance to being labelled a threat, or treated as a threat, as a form of oppression / hate in itself.
8. And of course to *justify oppression* of these groups based on all of the above.

ALL of these aspects can be found in feminism’s threat narrative about the group ‘men’.

1. feminism depicts men as a threat to civilised society
2. feminism seeks to increase the public perception of the invulnerability of men, while emphasising or exaggerating the vulnerability of women
3. feminism seeks to increase the public perception of the agency of men, while decreasing the public perception of the agency of women
4. feminism decreases the public’s empathy towards men (dehumanizes them)
5. feminism increases the public’s sense of vulnerability and powerlessness to men
6. feminism depicts any crimes or negative attitudes of individual men as representative of men as a whole (but does not do the same when men act heroically, or with compassion, or love or altruism – as men so often do)
7. feminism depicts men’s resistance to being labelled a threat, or treated as a threat, as a form of oppression / hate in itself.
8. And of course feminism justifies the oppression of men based on all of the above.

Here are some quotes by some prominent and influential feminists. These feminists were NOT condemned or thrown out of the feminist movement for saying these things.

“I feel that ‘man-hating’ is an honorable and viable political act, that the oppressed have a right to class-hatred against the class that is oppressing them.” — Robin Morgan, Ms. Magazine Editor.

“To call a man an animal is to flatter him; he’s a machine, a walking dildo.” — Valerie Solanas, Authoress of the SCUM Manifesto

“The male is a domestic animal which, if treated with firmness…can be trained to do most things.” — Jilly Cooper, SCUM

“I want to see a man beaten to a bloody pulp with a high-heel shoved in his mouth, like an apple in the mouth of a pig.” — Andrea Dworkin

“Men who are unjustly accused of rape can sometimes gain from the experience.” – Catherine Comins

“All men are rapists and that’s all they are” — Marilyn French, Authoress

”Feminism is the theory, lesbianism is the practice.” — Ti-Grace Atkinson

“When a woman reaches orgasm with a man she is only collaborating with the patriarchal system, eroticizing her own oppression.” — Sheila Jeffrys

“All sex, even consensual sex between a married couple, is an act of violence perpetrated against a woman.” — Catherine MacKinnon

“You grow up with your father holding you down and covering your mouth so another man can make a horrible searing pain between your legs.” — Catherine MacKinnon (Prominent legal feminist scholar; University of Michigan, & Yale.)

“The more famous and powerful I get the more power I have to hurt men.” — Sharon Stone; Actress

“The proportion of men must be reduced to and maintained at approximately 10% of the human race.” — Sally Miller Gearhart, in The Future – If There Is One – Is Female.

Do any of these quotes sound familiar?

Society has, and presumably will, always be full of insane, broken, hateful, evil people spouting hatred and anger. That is not dangerous in itself. But history shows us over and over again that what IS dangerous is when ordinary society is tricked into supporting, funding and obeying these mentally ill people.

The ordinary German population were no more or less immoral than the rest of Europe at the time. The problem for the insane tyrants in the nazi party was how to bypass the moral standards of the ordinary German people. And subjecting the German people to relentless ‘threat narrative’ propaganda was their (tried and tested) solution. And it worked.

It ALWAYS works.

The threat narrative propaganda made the average German either supportive to the nazi oppression of jews (and blacks and gays and gypsies and the rest of Europe) or generally apathetic about the whole thing … until it was too late to stop it.

Don’t forget that a lot of these MRM types not only want to pay less child support, they want to get out of paying child support altogether, citing women being able to get abortions but men not being able to “opt out” of being fathers. There’s not a real comparison there; as has been observed elsewhere, abortion is an alternative to pregnancy; adoption is an alternative to parenthood.

I think the Men’s Rights Movement is bogus in their desire to blame feminism for their problems. And I do acknowledge the privilege that white men receive (as I am one and I can admit this truth), but to claim misandry doesn’t exist at all is also bogus. There are certain populations and situations where men are mistreated because we are in a space that is dominated by members of the opposite sex who do not necessarily have an all-inclusive attitude. For instance, I was belittled while pursuing my undergraduate degree in English: writing because I was in a program that was dominated by women. I struggled to fit in and belong and dealt with petty belittling and lack of cooperation. As I made my mark in the field people did come around, and what drastically improved things was receiving more males into the English department, but even though behaviors and attitudes improved the problem didn’t vanish. Gender discrimination is a two way street with both sexes being capable of it. My gender is associated with more privilege and we are often the worse offenders, but open up your minds to the possibility that not all people (men or women) play nice. Discrimination by gender can come from both sides of the fence. So to close, no I am not a supporter of this ridiculous movement by males, but don’t lead others to believe women cannot discriminate. Everyone is capable of ugly actions.

Robert, as much as the other butthurt guys in here are awful enough, you’re the worst, based on your comments. I hope you’re not married, for if you got married and you shamelessly beat your wife (I don’t know if you have one), then you’re sick and disgusting. Get some help and then you could come back as a decent person. Women are actually strong, beautiful creatures. Plus, one of them even gave you life, so if not for them, then you wouldn’t have been born. No, I’m no hardcore feminist so don’t get me wrong, but women do not belong in the kitchen and they’re not made as slaves. If a woman wants to be in the kitchen and says that it’s her passion, then that’s fine, but if she’d rather be somewhere else instead, then she shouldn’t ever be forced to slave over a hot stove nor a kitchen sink loaded with gross dishes. If you treat women with respect first, then they’ll respect you in return (respect can only be earned and you don’t just get it), so don’t expect a nice, hot dinner on the table after you mistreat them. Plus, have you (and the other dudes in here) ever realized that you guys suck too and that, like I said, if it weren’t for women, you wouldn’t have been born? I’m sure that you’re just jealous that women can bring life into the world while you cannot. Let’s face it; if women didn’t exist, then neither would the human race. Trust me.

“..No, I’m no hardcore feminist so don’t get me wrong, but women do not belong in the kitchen and they’re not made as slaves…”

Have you ever heard of the ‘FEminers’? They were a group of working class feminists from the 1800’s who lived in an area where the only work available was mining or shipbuilding or fishing or farming – basically all jobs which extreme and often dangerous forms of manual labour. Most jobs were manual labour back then because the technology for modern carpeted, centrally heated offices, information technology and modern service industries had not been invented yet.

Naturally, these women desperately wanted to liberate themselves from their oppressive gender roles as housewives, and go and work in the mines like their husbands were all doing. We know this is the case because today, now that we DO have the choice to do (a) gruelling manual labour or (b) work in nice comfortable indoor environment like an office, most people today prefer to do manual labour if they can.

But back then women were oppressed by the patriarchy which did not let them work down mines, or in the shipyards or on fishing boats or on construction sites.

But these feminists were not going to be oppressed any longer, and so they took to the streets armed with pitchforks and knives to demand the right to do men’s work!

They must have scared the men to death, because after confronting them and making their demands all of the men immediately said “So you want to work down the mines, while we stay at home and do the housework?…… yeah sure!”

And in just five minutes the women had successfully won the right to do all the manual labour jobs in the area, while the men were forced to stay at home and tend to the allotment, do the housework and play games with the children.

Victory for women, at last!

And so it was that on the following monday the women triumphantly marched off to do their husband’s privileged jobs in the mines, out in the fields, in the iron foundries, building the sewers, building roads and walls and houses …. and they sung songs of victory as they went!

“We hate men,
men are shit
Men are evil pigs,
But now we’re free,
to do their work,
we’ve smashed the patriar-chy!”

By about midday all the women returned home all covered in soot, and filth and with cuts and bruises and muscle strains.

And because the men loved their wives they simply gave them a big hug and let them in the house to get cleaned up.

Women deserve equality with men when they become troublesome, odious and as stupid as some men, women like this are entitled to a good beating just like any man!

“Ama me, Ama canem meam”…St Bernard

On Jun 11, 2014, at 5:06 AM, The Belle Jar wrote:

Respond to this comment by replying above this line
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Spinning For Difficulty commented on Why The Men’s Rights Movement Is Garbage.

in response to Nicole:

Robert, as much as the other butthurt guys in here are awful enough, you’re the worst, based on your comments. I hope you’re not married, for if you got married and you shamelessly beat your wife (I don’t know if you have one), then you’re sick and disgusting. Get some help and then you could […]

“..No, I’m no hardcore feminist so don’t get me wrong, but women do not belong in the kitchen and they’re not made as slaves…”

Have you ever heard of the ‘FEminers’? They were a group of working class feminists from the 1800′s who lived in an area where the only work available was mining or shipbuilding or fishing or farming – basically all jobs which extreme and often dangerous forms of manual labour. Most jobs were manual labour back then because the technology for modern carpeted, centrally heated offices, information technology and modern service industries had not been invented yet.

Naturally, these women desperately wanted to liberate themselves from their oppressive gender roles as housewives, and go and work in the mines like their husbands were all doing. We know this is the case because today, now that we DO have the choice to do (a) gruelling manual labour or (b) work in nice comfortable indoor environment like an office, most people today prefer to do manual labour if they can.

But back then women were oppressed by the patriarchy which did not let them work down mines, or in the shipyards or on fishing boats or on construction sites.

But these feminists were not going to be oppressed any longer, and so they took to the streets armed with pitchforks and knives to demand the right to do men’s work!

They must have scared the men to death, because after confronting them and making their demands all of the men immediately said “So you want to work down the mines, while we stay at home and do the housework?…… yeah sure!”

And in just five minutes the women had successfully won the right to do all the manual labour jobs in the area, while the men were forced to stay at home and tend to the allotment, do the housework and play games with the children.

Victory for women, at last!

And so it was that on the following monday the women triumphantly marched off to do their husband’s privileged jobs in the mines, out in the fields, in the iron foundries, building the sewers, building roads and walls and houses …. and they sung songs of victory as they went!

“We hate men,
men are shit
Men are evil pigs,
But now we’re free,
to do their work,
we’ve smashed the patriar-chy!”

By about midday all the women returned home all covered in soot, and filth and with cuts and bruises and muscle strains.

And because the men loved their wives they simply gave them a big hug and let them in the house to get cleaned up.

I’m not going to waste my team leaving a long, well thought out comment dismantling the logical fallacies and outright lie this article is writhe with, a few men here already have. I’ll just leave these few short statements of satire.

+ “YYYEEEEAHAAHAHAHAHAHA! Fuck the paaatreeeeeaaaakkkeeeee! Let’s dismantle that motherfucker up in this b*******tch!”
– “So like, if we dismantle the patriarchy it will magically solve all of mens’ issues? I’m sold call me feminist!”
+ “Well, not really, I mean they may feel less emasculated by rape ergo they’ll be more likely to tell the police, but as for other crimes such as homelessness, mental illness or the actual occurrence of rape probably wont be too affected.”
– “That’s okay, you’ll just advocate for men’s issues as well as women’s issues wont you? Call me feminist!”
+ “NO! Men’s issues don’t matter! Fuck men, fuck MRA’s and fuck the patriarchy!”
– “huh….. So if I can advocate for the marginalized individuals, what can I don?”
+ “Sit down, shut up and listen to feminists complain about widespread misogyny and female oppression. You wouldn’t understand, you’re just a man. Just do exactly what we say and don’t think for yourself.”

#FeminismIsEquality

– Why do you need feminism?
+ Because women have been oppressed for millennia!
– How so?
+ Because women weren’t allowed to vote until nearly 1890!
– But men are marginalized too. For example, men have always been sent to die in wars against their will and forced to construct society in dangerous conditions for terrible wages. That still holds true for today.
+ Don’t speak over me! My gender has been oppressed for millennia and that’s why I need feminism.
– So you need feminism TODAY so you can marginalize me and silence me TODAY for things that happened to your gender over 100 years ago?
+ Yes!

#FeminismIsEquality

“Misandry is not actually a thing, and pretending that it’s an oppressive force on par with or worse than misogyny is offensive, gross, and intellectually dishonest.”
+ Hatred of men doesn’t exist. Hatred of women is misogyny, disgusting and should be dealt with by castration and life imprisonment. Hatred of men is empowerment of women worldwide. To say any different is intellectually dishonest.
– Huh.

#FeminismIsEquality

– I want to advocate for men because men who slip through the cracks of society are severely marginalized and deliberately silenced by feminists.
+ Stop asserting rape culture and derailing feminism!

#FeminismIsEquality.

– Ahhh. My back hurts.
+ You alright bro?
– Yeah, rough night last night, just a bit stiff.
+ Ahhh haaaa! Was it that girl you took home? Threw your back out ay?
– Well kinda. She seemed a little too tipsy and I thought she might not be in the best state of mind. I thought she might have regretted it in the morning so I tucked her into my bed and crashed onto the couch. You’re right, I should have got a new one ages ago.
+ You did the right thing man.
> I WAS EVES DROPPING AND I HEARD YOU TWO TALKING ABOUT HOW YOU LIKE TO PICK UP GIRLS FROM THE CLUB AND RAPE THEM! RAPIST! RAPIST! RAPIST! STOP OPPRESSING ME WITH YOUR RAPE CULTURE PATRIARCHY!

#FeminismIsEquality.

Feminism gives a voice to everyone. Except for men and handmaindens and anyone who isn’t a privileged white women. Well feminism pretends to care about non-white women and non-straight women but the majority of those rights and privileges are being funnelled straight to white women, the most privileged demographic to have EVER existed.

Geez if anyone has any IQ points left after wading through some of these clueless comments, it is a miracle. Anyway my comment is that of course men are oppressed–but overwhelmingly by other men and their constricted ideas of how everybody should behave These ideas are constantly contradicted in daily life. In my weakest moments (which are not all that widely separated) , I wish I could blame the nearest woman for my shortcomings; this is because men hate to admit their shortcomings to one another. Thus they hope in vain that they could be bigger if only they could somehow may other smaller.

‘But men do not face oppression because they are men.’ Absolute rubbish. So when my mother was believed over my dad in court when he said my sister and I wanted joint custody but she said we didn’t, despite voice recordings of us saying it – that wasn’t blatant discrimination against my dad because he’s a man? And when the CSA were reluctant to award my dad CS when he got custody, yet they happily awarded my mother it – that wasn’t blatant discrimination against him because he’s a man? When my brother took his son to the medical centre and was made to feel like a criminal, filling in forms that the mum wouldn’t have had to and being asked why the mum wasn’t there – that wasn’t blatant discrimination against him because he’s a man?He was a father, not a mother. And for some reason, everyone around us believed that that instantly gave him less rights. Xxx

It’s discrimination, not oppression. It’s the same thing as a white person being made to feel unwelcome in a neighborhood. It’s discriminatory, but not the same thing as oppression. It sucks, and it’s not really fair, but for it to qualify as oppression your dad and brother would have to face whole nother levels of daily prejudice, violence, and basic disenfranchisement

Because at the end of the day, your average woman has had to face far more, far worse things

And, this discrimination against men as caregivers is patriarchal. Men are assumed to be unnurturing, emotionally vacant. Little boys are forbidden to play with dolls, told to “man up” when they cry, etc

The real reason that the feminists and their cooperate supporters are so much attacking the MRM is because the MRA debunks the central tenants of feminism such as patriarchy theory, male privilege, oppression of women for the benefit of men and gender being a purely social construct. When Feminist theories are exposed to sound logic and valid research, Feminism no longer has a leg to stand on. So the Feminists are trying really hard to smear the reputation of the MRM, and their cooperate supporters are definitely lending them a hand because their whole racketeering scamming of gender relations will come to an end if people really start learning the truth from the MRAs.

“So yes, let’s talk about issues that affect men. Let’s come up with solutions for problems that disproportionately hurt men, like suicide and homelessness and violent deaths”

But lets do it from within a feminist framework? When we do organize a talk about male suicide the entrance gets blocked and the fire alarm gets pulled. I can’t believe you’d have the cheek to say MRAs bully feminists with all their shenanigans at MRA events.

I mean this is all the same old same old ignorant nonsense. You’d be better off reading The Myth of Male Power and Who Stole Feminism? before writing another piece about men’s rights. So I will just dismiss most of it out of hand without doing a point by point.

If 40% of women had their labia removed at birth without a sufficient anesthetic because the parents thought it was “cleaner” or “looked better”, I bet you’d call that oppression.

Not many MRAs actually think men are the most oppressed group, but there really is oppression there. Feminism is doing absolutely nothing to help, so let us get on with it rather than writing misinformed snarky blog entries.

Let men speak about what they think their problems are rather than telling them what their problems are.

Male circumcision do have health benefits which female circumcision do not have, It can be argued that male circumcision benefits the male on some grounds but not on others. However, very few men really complain about male circumcision. Another reality is that countries where most boys are circumcised, most men want circumcision for their kids, men who appose circumcision are most likely not circumcised. If you ask men in Philippines, by far the majority believe boys must be circumcised, while 96% of them are circumcised. Ask a European man, then he believes circumcision is abuse, yet very few of them are circumcised. What I am saying is, the more boys are circumcised, the more men support it. If it was abuse of boys then the boys who were circumcised would have been the ones complaining the most about it, yet the opposite are true, those who are circumcised support it more. Im sure people who are abused or who suffer as a result of something are not going to grow up to support it. Untill the men of circumcising countries start to protest against it, I will not accept that circumcision is in anyway abuse or oppression of males.

Some anti male circumcision groups claim that no medical organization supports circumcision. Yet the WHO and UN mandate 14 African countries to upscale male circumcision to 80% to reduce HIV, CDC wanted to mandate it at a point, AAP now state that the benefits outweigh the risks, UNICEF the united nations organization for children supports male circumcision programs for boys…Medical Research Council in South Africa promote male circumcision. not only are there medical organizations who support it, But the biggest and most powerful of medical organizations are supporting it. What no medical organization ever stated was that male circumcision is abuse or human rights violations. Why? because it isn’t.

In USA a group tried to ban it, they failed, circumcision then more protected by law than ever before. Some in Germany tried to ban it, but failed, it was made legal. Some pushed the EU to ban it, they ended up officially allowing it. Nowhere even in the most anti-circumcision countries do they get it right to convince the powers that male circumcision is bad for society, every time it gets reinforced with legalization. while we don’t see any countries banning male circumcision, we see more countries who never circumcised before start with male circumcision programs now. It would not be the case if circumcision was evidently harmful to men.

Therefore we cannot compare it with female circumcision where a great deal of complaints against it is raging from the women who experience it

It’s nice to see some statistics on this. AS a man, I am in support of the choice of parents whether to do this to their boys or not. I realise the benefits, as well as the opposition. It’s not abuse, when there is so much proof that the benefits outweigh any detriments (which are really more like temporary drawbacks).

I have several issues with feminism.. But, None of them have anything to do with females having equal rights. It has to with the way some go about supporting the cause.. some of the things people do in the name of feminism is what causes some people, both male and female discredit and not take the movement seriously. Also some of the articles that are written, like one in particular that I read which told me from begining to end that I need to be aware of every thing i do around females and not act as a man when interacting with females in public, be aware of my posture or how I approach females even while just walking down the street past them because females live in constant fear of being raped and i may intimidate them… Special treatment based on sex seems to be the opposite of what feminist want, but i am being told i must treat them different in every aspect.. I don’t “tip toe around the tulips” around other males, so i shouldn’t be told do so around women, when “equality” is what you want… There is the issue of feminists acting as their cause is the most important, even this author stating “it isn’t your turn” Female rights take priority over anyone else’s? What about basic human rights? Every person around the world should have absolute equality as humans before people balk about not getting the same jobs or the same pay. Or, even in the feminist movement it’s self.. Some matters are more important that others. For instance, women not being murdered for going out at night, or driving, and not having their sex organs mutilated because of religion is considerably more important than equal pay or job offers.. I’ll stop before I write a novel about what is wrong with the feminist movement….

It should be termed “The Ugly,fat,stupid,bigoted WHITE men’s rights movement,because those disgustingly racist Troglodytes hate black men-ESPECIALLY us life-size Brads-from 1968-’72,Brad was Barbie’s then-boyfriend Ken’s handsome black buddy;Yours Truly is a
black Canadian lad,61,said to be cover boy handsome,muscular,beefy-I’m 5’9″,205-210 lb.,boasting 181/2″ biceps,though like a LOT of older chaps,I’m attempting to lose about 25 lb.-and resemble a handsome black cowboy stud IN AND OUT of my Wranglers jeans and other casual and/or Western garb.They’d see someone like me and say I was taking “their” jobs and women (who,of course,can’t resist a black lovin’ lad such as I!!!!)BECAUSE I’m black and,of course,got every think because of “affirmative action.”(As opposed to their “golf club hires!!!!”)
In short,these fat,whiny b****es and their two-inch boy parts blame EVERYONE BUT THEMSELVES for being odious,nasty,dull-normal-or-dumber Bubbas!!!!

I agree with you about the “men’s rights movement” being garbage. The further us women get in life; the closer to any resemblance of equality, the men want to kick us back in our “places.” The truth is that men do not need any more rights. We live in a patriarchy as it is; what more do they want? Total subordination from us, and access to our bodies 24/7? Men need to start taking responsibility for their (putrid) actions. Who rapes, murders, sexually assaults, dominates, intimidates, beats, etc. women? Certainly not the Easter bunny. Anytime us women have anything to say that rings a bit of truth, they want to silence us. Sounds like the mras want us women barefoot and pregnant, and in the kitchen once more. They are afraid of us feminists, and inherently know we are right, so they try and prove to the world that we are all evil and delusional. Male privilege DOES exist. When I am in a taxi, and the driver asks me if I have children, or are married, my response is always the same. I tell HIM that if I were a guy, he would not be asking me those invasive questions. Why not ask me about the weather, or why doesn’t he just SHUT UP AND DRIVE me to where I am paying him to go?! All of these little instances in my day add up, and are almost exhausting to deal with. These mra’s are taking us feminists’ problems, and are trying to make them their own. They are cowards who try and shut us up and sensor us by harassment, and threats. If they were a truly upstanding organization, they would not do this. W Us women choose to exercise our right to free speech, and the poor mras can’t deal with us and what we are saying. We will not be silenced!!

Feminism is luckily growing at a faster rate as MRA’s. But what MRA’s teach us is that feminist are right. What feminist must watch out for is men who act as feminist infiltrating feminist leadership. There are guys like Dr Warren Ferral who are one of the most renowned MRA’s who was for 3 years on the chair of NOW. Feminist will benefit from focusing on female leadership in their own ranks.

I do believe that increasing male involvement in feminism is important but only up to a certain level. The male patriarchal instincts will always come back ones men have that power.

Furthermore Male rights movement has been there since the 1970s, and while men had the majority rule over society, even when men had much more power over women, the MRAs could not manage to accomplish anything to prevent feminist to multiply and to spread globally.

Today women have much more power and the feminist movement spreads at much faster rate as MRAs, The more power women have the more acceptable and powerful the feminist movement becomes and the more resistance there is to MRA’s
Since the Millennium Development Goals of the United Nations was accepted globally in 2000, More modern laws say that all programs, laws and funding must be to empower women. This helps feminists groups to develop faster and puts pressure on MRAs.

More men today support the feminist movement and this also adds pressure on MRA’s
The empowerment of women brought more value to the lives of both men and women, it brought more freedom to both men and women. I don’t have to go to war any more thanks to women, my brother which is older had to go to army whether he liked it or not and could get arrested if he refuse or not abey orders, Feminism saved me from that with their focus on human rights and liberating people. I don’t have to go to church anymore before you would be called a Satanist for not attending church or a religion. I don’t have marry anymore, I live a single life without being mocked, I can have whatever sexuality I want, I don’t have to be sole provider for the family anymore while the wife adds much more to the financial security nowadays. How many men who lost their jobs in the credit crunch had their wives to fall back on? Or boys who lost a father as a child and had a working mother providing them with a quality life and education which would not have been possible if she was not working or earning less.

Feminism brought much more progress and advantages than the patriarchal system. MRA’s often point to family courts that are bias to men, but never make reference to the fact that feminism helped to create a world where men are free to choose if they want to remain single, get married, divorce if unhappy, or live gay or whatever they choose to be, which the patriarchal system never allowed much freedom of choice. Men are free to choose if they want to accept the family law or not, if they want to get married or have sex or not. Feminism gave men those freedoms. So why cry about something while you gained the freedom to choose if you want it or not.

Some institutions like universities starts banning MRA’s

Governments starts monitoring activities of MRA’s online more, US now start monitoring internet comment lines for abusive languages against women that MRA’s must watch out for.

Feminism have become more socially accepted by both men and women and any references to patriarchal becomes socially less acceptable.
While we see more trolling of MRA’s online, more abusive language and MRA’s heading out to discredit feminism more, so do they show the world how they are and why we must not take them seriously.

Where I am, 15 years ago MRAs could argue if a woman is raped and she was sexy and seductive, that she was asking for it, it was valid. Today if MRA’s make a statement like that they are Boo!! out by society and no court would listen to that. If a man hit a women, MRA’s would be supported when they say “but she was looking for trouble”, today MRA’s are ignored since we all accept now that hitting of women is not acceptable in any form anymore.

The bottom line is, MRAs are not acting out more aggressively because they are gaining power, they are because they are losing power faster than ever. They became powerless. Tolling has increased but they are losing power at a faster rate. Not only are they losing power, but feminism is till gaining power and influence and support by both men and women faster than ever. The ideals of feminism is falling into place faster and gets accepted more, while MRA’s Ideals are rejected more and more. This piss them off and results in them acting out more irrationally adding to reason why people would take them less seriously because of their irrational arguments and misbehavior. MRAs are losing power as they fail more and more to have their ideals recognized while global powers, media, law makers, industry are more and more buying into feminist ideals, feminists succeed more and more. All MRAs have left is trolls, a few books that don’t sell It now only becomes a place where angry men who are not yet ready to accept the powerful roles of women to go blow off steam. They are not gaining any power.

More men realize that the more power women gain in society the better society becomes, and that its not about being equal so much, how do you measure equality in anyway? But what is important is to empower women for as long as it benefits society and to give women more and more power until the rape and abuse of women are irradiated.

More powerful global organizations are starting to define MRA’s as counter intuitive to the empowerment of women and going against the Millennium development goals, to empower women.

UN organizations are also showing more interest in studying matriarchal societies and the advantages of them.

More MRAs get exposed for involvement in illegal scandals, I think the aggression we see from MRA’s are because they are on their knees and realize they are powerless to stop the feminist movement. They sense the patriarchal boat is sinking very fast and faster and they are powerless to stop it and more people are welcoming it.

Its only true for those who choose to compete, you can choose if you want to fight it or join it. Those who join it, benefit from it, those who fight it remains in a never ending battle. I have many female owned businesses supplying me services and they outperform many male owned businesses I used before, These women have been nothing but good for my business. So I could fight it an see how opportunities gets less and suffer and blame feminism, or I can join it, bring them in and see how my business benefit from the good service they provide.

Its MRA’s attitude towards feminism and female power that place them in the position to blame feminism. You can choose if feminism is going to be a problem for you or not. A man can abuse women and have his ass kicked and blame his pain on feminists, or he can respect women, support them in their quest for empowerment and get respect and support back from them in return. a win-win situation. Its simple social rules. Often men find themselves in an unfortunate position he blames on feminism because of what he does and because of his attitude towards women. A man who change his attitude to women, who devote himself to respecting women and support their empowerment will get much respect and support back from women.

If women could survive in a world ruled by men, men would be able to survive in a world ruled by women. If a woman can work for a male boss, a man can work for a female boss. If it is ok for a man to be the head of the family, it is ok if a woman can also head the family. For thousands of years women lived under the total power of men, but now when its women turn to have power, men chicken out and is not strong enough to deal with it.

Its time for men to lay down the weapons and support women in their quest to the top, to leadership and our future. Both men and women would gain many benefits from it, Besides when feminism was 0.1% as powerful as they are now, men with all their rule and power could not stop them from growing in power, MRA’s was stronger but failed. today MRA’s have much less power and feminism is gaining power at exponential rates, MRA’s cannot stop them, they can only piss them off.

When men ruled and send men to war to return in body bags, men was proud and did not bother with rights, today women rise in power and want men to support them and give men freedoms from such horrors, men suddenly feel women are compromising their rights? really? When men hanged men for rape it was all good, now that women bring human rights and want to rather rehabilitate rapists, now mens rights are compromised. really? Despite the few sacrifices men had to make to make way for women, men have a lot to thank women for. Things men benefit and give women no credit for, starting with most of your freedoms. Men must just realize they cant have it all. Nobody can. But the feminist movement is necessary for a better word and I wish more men would see it.

But instead some men want to compete against women, but they are fighting a war that cannot be won. They try and end up wounded and then blame women for their pain. Because the feminist movement is like a 300tn runaway train and MRAs is like one man trying to stop it and end up hurt. Stop resisting the feminist movement and work with it, and things will become 200% better, MRA’s think its getting to the equality it aimed for while in fact it just started, feminism is not just full speed ahead, it is still accelerating and growing. I know long ago I also supported MRAs until I realized its pointless and fruitless and its more destructive than anything else. Give women a fair chance and see how awesome they are.

Hi, I am sorry for commenting late on this article, but I am researching the MRA’s and their obsession with combating feminism and I have found this article. MRA’s are extremely hypocritical, I am very confused as to why they expect feminism to equally focused on male issues. They seems to be angry about how feminism is mainly focused on female issues, even though they know that feminism was created by women for women (even though it does benefit men). Because of this, they accuse feminists of being sexist and hypocritical. Which is really strange. Anti-racism groups do not have to benefit white people, gay rights groups don’t have to benefit straight people and so on. No equal rights group has to campaign for issues outside that group. ESPECIALLY the advantaged group. Never ever. Full stop. So why does feminism need to be equally focused on male issues? Yet the MRM does not benefit women at all and does not have any focus on female issues (besides pretending that they don’t exist, hence all the ‘What about teh Menz’ comments on feminist websites), yet they seem to see this as acceptable? Don’t they see how hypocritical this is?! I just don’t get it! They accuse feminism of being sexist and hypocritical for not extending the benefits to the opposite sex (even though feminism does) and yet they go on to do exactly that-they have created a group that only benefits themselves. Mind boggling! And this whole feminism having to change its name to ‘humanism’ or ‘egalitarianism’, what’s up with that? What is so offensive about the word prefix ‘fem’? Is it because it means female? I am so confused! They also accuse feminism to be a hate movement, yet MRA’s fill every article about female issues with misogyny, whether they are feminist or not. Even though most well researched and well presented feminist video on Youtube gets flooded with offensive comments that most of them don’t allow comments anymore. Yet even the most hateful MRA video is accepted. There seems to be a huge double standard-fighting for female rights is ‘bad’ and fighting for male rights is ‘good’. Misogyny is good while misandry is bad. This is why the world needs feminism.

It’s pretty straight forward, Elaine. Feminism as a whole claims to be about equal rights for both genders, not biased towards women. And that it doesn’t actually promote equal rights, rather it promotes the concept of women having more privileges than children and men. So where are the equal rights in that? That’s the big issue MRAs have with it. I agree that there is too much emphasis on battling feminism. But that’s another issue…

Hi Elain MRA does not hate women, but have some anger about the situation that cause them to voice alot of frustration the same way feminist often do

To explain this to you, let me start by saying. feminists say there should be no MRA because feminism is for gender equality, and looks after the rights of both sexes. But as MRAs know and yourself as you stated in your comment, Feminism is mostly only concerned with the rights of women. So can men really depend on feminism to look after their rights? No they cannot as feminist have done nothing to address the issues which men face. I went to look at the mission statement of NOW, and a few other feminists groups, not one of the objectives include men or their issues. They all focus only on female issues. Therefore in reality feminism does not include male issues at all. even though many claim it to be so in theory. In really I have never seen any proof of feminists addressing any male issues.

So the logical thing would be that if feminist do not want to include the rights and needs of men in their movement and activism, then obviously men would have to do it themselves. So this created the need for a mens rights movement so that men can look at their issues the same way women look at theirs within feminism.

However, every time men want to discuss matters or have a meeting to discuss issues which affect them. Then feminist jump in to stir fights and arguments as MRAs often do on feminist sites. When MRA want to have a meeting to talk about male issues which affects men which feminists appose or ignore, then feminist break down the building (so to speak) to prevent men and women from talking about male issues.

It is equivalent to having one religion who say there is only one religion and thats ours. all people must be muslim or be an enemy. This is how feminist reasons about MRAs

So the problem MRAs do have with feminists are that feminist do not want to address issues what men are threatened with, and there are many. Feminst usually turn around and say that male problems are created by the patriarchy therefore we can dismiss it. But when men want to use the same freedom of speech which feminist enjoy to discuss their issues, them feminist want to protest against mens freedom of speech. This is an oppression of freedom of speech.

So what feminism has been demonstrating is, that only women should have rights, or have their problems addressed since feminism is not concerned with male rights or at least those that matter to men. And any group who dare consider the issues men have, must be condemned and abolished as a hate group. Only feminist may have a freedom of speech and only women may gain rights and only men may be incriminated, enslaved or have their freedom of speech condemned.

MRAs do not expect feminist to consider the rights of men which they claim they do and claim they dont depending on the argument. All MRAs want is for feminist to leave them alone and to practice their freedom of speech, the same freedom of speech feminist enjoy everyday. To deny men that is a form of oppression or dictatorship and dominance from feminists and is nothing better than that women accused the patriarchy off. A respectable group will have their opinion but also respect the opinion of others even if they differ.

MRA is a response to a feminist movement that became gynocratic by nature and the greatest evidence of it is the feminist perception that only they have a freedom of speech and only their ideals may be allowed and only areas where female human rights are at stake should action be taken. This demonstrate the highest level of hypocrisy and double standards.

MRAs can live in peace aside feminism, as they are often fighting for the same goal of equality and human rights. However as long as feminism want to condemn them, they will logically strike at feminists. But I know feminism will never be friendly to mens rights of mens freedom of speech and therefore I can safely say, the war between feminists and MRAs are only beginning.

The only alternative to MRA for men is, for men to go their own way, to opt out of society, marriage and relationships, this process have already started as only 23% of men are still interested in marriage. And as Dr Helen Smith wrote in her book Men on Strike, its not because of porn or free sex, the problem goes much deeper than that. This is what happens when feminism fails men, and MRAs fail to resolve issues in time. This is a problem that will soon reach global proportions as the “grass eaters” from the Asian world are emerging and the MGTOW from the western world. These are not movements but rather a phenomena where men are opting out, or as the book of Dr Helen Smith state “men on strike” as the world become increasingly hostile towards men and their identity and their right to be men. however while feminist can still protest and shut MRA’s up, they cannot force men who opt out of society, to love, marry or respect women. That cannot be forces on men through feminism. That however is a runaway train. That is a direct response to a feminist society which is not very male friendly with a entire new set of consequences for society and women.

Me myself in my late 30’s dont want to ever marry or have children, I refuse to work in the corporate world and instead created my own business to get away from politics of feminism and legal consequences of being a man. The funny thing is, both my step brothers do the same, my neighbor do the same, im the youngest one of 3, none of my other two siblings want children. So the alternative to men having a active position to handle their issues, they will use a passive position to handle their issues by going their own way which may leave society with some new problems.

As you would see I didnt swear, or said nasty things about women in any way, I have not been disrespectful but explained the situation the most accurate to my knowledge to answer your problem. I hope it helped.

Excuse me, but this comment was a question directed to author of the article. It was not directed at you. Please do not respond with a wall of text to questions that have not being directed at you personally. As for ‘Feminism is mostly only concerned with the rights of women. So can men really depend on feminism to look after their rights? No they cannot as feminist have done nothing to address the issues which men face’ Feminism CAN NOT address the issues that men face, because feminism is about women (hence its name). Men and women face different issues and these issues can ONLY be solved by men, Feminists have worked hard to improve the lives of women, often facing extreme opposition. We got off our butts and did something. Men have to do the same. We are not going to do all your work for you.And “All MRAs want is for feminist to leave them alone and to practice their freedom of speech,” Well, you we want is for MRA’s to do the same and not troll every feminist site they see.

“I’m getting really, really tired of having to justify feminism by explaining how it also benefits men……. What I’m angry about is not the genuine male enquirers who honestly wonder why ‘nobody complains about the stereotyping of men’…….it’s the anti-feminist men who attack us for daring to get involved in a movement which aims to improve the lives of women.

What this is really about is men accusing feminists of sexism and hypocrisy unless they can prove that they spend exactly half of their time, energy, and resources on campaigning on behalf of men. What this is really about is that if feminism only improves the lives of women, it has no value or importance. What this is really about is that feminism only has value if it works on behalf of men and improves the lives of men. What this is really about is anti-feminist men being threatened by women working for women. What they’re really saying is that to talk about women, to focus on women, to point out that something affects women badly; all of this is of no importance or value. It’s classic, really – because men are not always the focus of attention of feminism, these anti-feminists can’t stand it.

What this is about is that some men can’t stand not being the centre of attention.”

1) you made no reference to the fact that you where speaking only to the author, so its safe to assume you spoke to everyone.

2) I do not have a problem that feminist only look at female rights. I do have a problem that feminist try to mislead people with the statement that feminist are there fore the rights of both men and women, as you clearly state is a false representation of feminism. Mean while most feminist out trolling MRA sites claim that feminism is both for men and women’s rights which you admit is false. Thats where the hypocrisy comes in. not that feminist fight for women’s rights, but they claim to fight for mens rights equally depending on what the argument is. Emma Watsons speech draw some attention to that element. She claim that feminism benefits men while the context of HeForShe hence the name, make it clear it has nothing to do with men benefiting at all. its a false representation to attract male support.

3) MRAs troll feminist sites in no different way that feminist troll MRA sites.

4) most of the war between feminist and MRAs are unnecessary, however there are a few legit areas where feminist have actively tried and succeeded to impose and destroy basic human rights of men which is worthy of criticism. While I believe that many MRAs wrongly consider them as anti-feminist because both still fight for some form of gender equality out of first principals. I do believe that most MRA who call themselves anti feminist should rephrase it to a more correct term such as feminist critics.

MRAs are not as apposed to feminism as they claim to, not when you examine what they do to its core. Anti-feminist It is something i consider wrongful labeling. It is as false as what some people who are unsocial commonly wrongly refer to themselves as antisocial. its a label error.

MRA’s dont want feminist to fight for mens rights, they want feminist to stop saying they are when they are not. when it suits them, they are and when it suits them, they are not.

MRA’s dont want feminist to fight for mens rights, they just want feminist to leave them alone while they are at it and not protest, block streets, rip off posters and pull fire alarms when men what to discuss issues that affects them.

MRAs are in general to its core not anti feminists, but are as much a critic of some elements of feminism as what various factions of feminism is critics to the other factions.

The other problem MRAs have with feminists are that it is impossible to engage in any form of conversation or reasoning. no matter how civil, rational you try to explain things, feminists always refer to their ideologies, quick answer phrases, and do anything but to engage in a out of the box rational debate and when they dont get their way, they become offensive, rude and insulting because they cannot win the debate.

It is almost like a astrophysicist trying to stand in-front of a church explaining how earth was formed, What is his chances of success, about equal to a MRA discussing gender issues with a feminist. Feminist handle their critics the same as that Christians handle scientists. The problem comes in when the astrophysicist want to explain the creation of earth to his physics class and then the church comes and burn down his class. that is how feminism is trying to oppress and suppress men talking about their issues. when they block of roads, pull fire alarms and so on. Feminist have a lot in their own behavior and single sided ideologies to answer for before pointing fingers at MRAs.

Because when you start denying people their freedom of speech when your movement want to pose as a gender tribunal where feminism is the prosecuter and the judge and see it right to deny MRAs as defendant equal opportunity to speak in the gender arena, then I gather that feminism have a lot of their own principles they preach about freedom of speech, equality and fairness to re-evaluate within their own system.

If feminism truly are what it claim to stand for, it would have respected mens contribution to independently participate in the development of gender dynamics instead of apposing them with dismissal and silencing strategies. Its not only women who are moving into the future, men are too and its not just all about women.

Johanus Haidner: I was not asking you, I was asking the author of this article. Please do not respond to posts that are not directed at you personally. Also did you read my comment before ‘answering’ it? (even though the question was not directed at you and you did not address the question at all) I thought I explained it clearly already. Feminism is about equality in RELATION to men. with men being the advantaged group. It may have benefits to men, but that is not the main focal point, women are. Why else would it be called feminism? As I said before no equal rights group has to campaign for issues outside that group. ESPECIALLY the advantaged group. Never ever. Full stop. What part of that is so hard to understand? Feminism is the only equal rights movement in history that is expected to benefit the advantaged group as much as the disadvantaged group for it be be considered fair. Also,no equal rights movement gets accused of giving these groups “more privileges” than the advantaged group. We don’t call anti-racist groups racist, we don’t call LGBT groups hetro-phobic, so we don’t call feminism sexist. Feminism also does benefit men, but it does not have to benefit men at all for it to be worth while, this is because the lives of women have value in their own right. Men may be the advantaged group, but men still have these problems. However, it is up to men to get off their butts do do something about it themselves. Feminism can not be expected to solve male issues, because men and women face different issues and not all of men’s issues can be solved by women.. Here are some articles on the subject.

As for “it doesn’t actually promote equal rights, rather it promotes the concept of women having more privileges than children and men. So where are the equal rights in that?” the male rights movement is exclusively focused on male rights, it does nothing for women, so can’t be argued that it promotes the concept of men having more privileges than women and children? Perhaps you should look in the mirror before making such ridiculous comments.

Wow, here is a woman complaining about men who try to resolve their own issues in the way that men solve them. She is all up in arms and bitching because men are not doing things the way women would. What a joke. This country was just fine for 100 plus years, almost 200 years, lifting all boats before the progressives and feminists started destroying what has worked in societies before us. Just like Rome and Greece, it was the progressives and feminist in power that began the ending of societies and here we are at ours and the progressives and feminists are looking around and proud at what they have destroyed. You should be ashamed. Without strong, free, masculine men, you would still be living in the stone age but, you are too stupid with feminine pride to admit it. The genders do have a role – operating at their gender strength, naturally. It is people like you who keep disrupting the natural order, causing women to expect to have it all and sacrifice nothing. It does not work that way, it never has, it never will.

Hollywood Hypocrisy and Gender Pay Gap Fiction
I forgot to mention that in adult entertainment women are paid much more than men. So are porn actresses better negotiators than porn actors or regular actresses? Or are porn actors just endowed with the worst negotiation skills of all (some kind of natural endowment trade-off)? Should the government force porn producers to pay men more or women less to equalize pay? In reality this disparity has nothing to do with discrimination against men, it’s just how the market works. The porn audience cares about the female stars. The men are more like props. So it’s the women who sell the films. Plus there is a greater supply of men willing to appear in these films than women. So pay rates reflects marker forces, not discrimination. It’s the same way in regular films, just reversed. I wonder if at the next Adult Video News awards a male winner will demand equal pay during his acceptance speech?

The same situation applies in the fashion industry. Female models earn more money than male models, though most will have shorter careers due to the youth factor.

[…] approve of some of what was said, especially about the Patriarchal society. You can read it here http://bellejar.ca/2014/03/28/why-the-mens-rights-movement-is-garbage/ . Very interesting article, although I noticed some issues with it. At one point the author states […]

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