lol poor lars. those mean metallica guys making him play hard songs that he can't play :nonono:

Div

06-05-2009, 07:21 PM

Metllica playing someone else's music? Surely this is the first and last time that will happen!

SerpentineVIVIVI

06-05-2009, 08:51 PM

That was funny :lol:

Their tone blows.

ChildrenofSodom

06-05-2009, 08:59 PM

He really is a bad drummer.

Maiden33

06-05-2009, 09:05 PM

Metallica in general are just a bunch of shitty musicians. And I don't care what anyone thinks, I'm not taking that back.

ChildrenofSodom

06-05-2009, 09:09 PM

Metallica in general are just a bunch of shitty musicians. And I don't care what anyone thinks, I'm not taking that back.

I dont like them as people, honestly, but I do think some of their music is good. I do not, however, think they deserve the hype. But we've already talked about all this...so.....

Div

06-05-2009, 10:18 PM

Oh they have good music, but they were washed up a loooooong time ago, all the hype they still get nowadays is pretty nauseating.

Maiden33

06-05-2009, 10:40 PM

I look at it like this:

Lars is a downright shitty drummer. Kirk can't play a solo that isn't soaked in Wah and generally void of substance and real technique. James has always been a shitty singer, regardless of how he sounded. If I had to choose, I'd actually say he technically peaked around the Black album, but even there I'm not a big fan of his voice. Cliff was a good bassist, a great one considering how few bass players can manage to play both in a metal style and be good, but I don't think I can really say anything about Trujilo (sp?), good or bad. They have had their share of good ideas, but even on most of the revered, "classic" material, I think their songwriting and arranging skills have severely lacked on longer songs. Some of the old longer songs are an absolute mess structurally. I just don't think individually they are remotely above average players, and I don't think they have any special playing or writing dynamic.

JRA

06-05-2009, 10:57 PM

Metallica's strength has first and foremost been songwriting.

Maiden33

06-05-2009, 11:03 PM

Metallica's strength has first and foremost been songwriting.

You're joking... right?

JRA

06-05-2009, 11:10 PM

You're joking... right?

Well, before 95 anyway.

You also failed to mention James' rhythm playing.

ADD

06-05-2009, 11:27 PM

Maiden33: play Battery on guitar and sing at the same time, then tell me James Hetfield is "remotely above average".

ADD

06-05-2009, 11:28 PM

Metallica's strength has first and foremost been songwriting.
Duh.

TonyD

06-05-2009, 11:32 PM

James as a singer/rhythm player is the strong point of the band, but ever since he lost the grit in his voice and started yodeling, it's just not the same.
Right now I'm listening to Kirk Hammet's half assed slide solo in Bleeding Me at that show.

ADD

06-05-2009, 11:34 PM

James as a singer/rhythm player is the strong point of the band, but ever since he lost the grit in his voice and started yodeling, it's just not the same.
Right now I'm listening to Kirk Hammet's half assed slide solo in Bleeding Me at that show.
Yeah obviously his voice sucks now, but back in the day it was damn cool. But he can still play some mean geetar.

And if people wanna knock Trujillo, to you I say try playing Whiplash on bass with your fingers like he does. Maniac shit.

Maiden33

06-06-2009, 12:03 AM

Maiden33: play Battery on guitar and sing at the same time, then tell me James Hetfield is "remotely above average".

This argument really doesn't hold a lot of water. Taking one of their more difficult songs and using it as a sole example doesn't prove anything. Hetfield sounds the same degree of crappy on pretty much all of their work, regardless of how complex the guitar parts were. His voice back in the day might have been "cool", but that didn't make him a good singer.

JRA

06-06-2009, 12:08 AM

This argument really doesn't hold a lot of water. Taking one of their more difficult songs and using it as a sole example doesn't prove anything. Hetfield sounds the same degree of crappy on pretty much all of their work, regardless of how complex the guitar parts were. His voice back in the day might have been "cool", but that didn't make him a good singer.

The idea of being able to be a "good singer" in order to be acceptable by musicians is idiotic. As long as you're able to channel a certain type of feeling (not necessarily emotion), that's all you need to forge your own sound and make your impact.

Maiden33, if you don't think Metallica are that great musicians, go ahead and express it. But trying to convince us that they aren't worth listening to, you're heading for a pummelling.

Maiden33

06-06-2009, 12:21 AM

The idea of being able to be a "good singer" in order to be acceptable by musicians is idiotic. As long as you're able to channel a certain type of feeling (not necessarily emotion), that's all you need to forge your own sound and make your impact.

Maiden33, if you don't think Metallica are that great musicians, go ahead and express it. But trying to convince us that they aren't worth listening to, you're heading for a pummelling.

I am sick to death of the idiotic notion that there is no way to technically judge a singer, and expression is all that matters. This is the biggest load of bullshit in the entire world. If there was no CORRECT way to sing, there would be no such thing as vocal coaches. No such term as vocal technique. You wouldn't have people attending universities for vocal performance. I'm not saying there is only one exact way to sing, there are certainly many. But certain techniques and qualities are pretty much all-encompassing for all vocal styles. Saying that you don't need to be a "good" singer is a bullshit excuse. To someone with a musical ear, hearing a bad singer is as bad as hearing a band who play with their guitars out of tune, or a drummer who can't stay in time.

And I don't intend to change anyone's mind here. I merely wish to explain my own opinions.

TonyD

06-06-2009, 12:53 AM

I agree with the technical point, but I enjoy a lot of crappy vocalists.
I used to hate Kurt Cobain like no other, so I feel for you.

And if people wanna knock Trujillo, to you I say try playing Whiplash on bass with your fingers like he does. Maniac shit.

As impossible as it is at this point, I really think he should be back in ST. He gets the job done for Metallica as well as anybody around and still doesn't show his full potential. Brunner is a damn good bass player, but he is less adapt as a metal/punk player and wasn't ever a key member of the band.

ChildrenofSodom

06-06-2009, 04:43 AM

Anyone ever listened to Grave Digger? or Sacred Steel?

Maiden33

06-06-2009, 06:23 AM

Anyone ever listened to Grave Digger? or Sacred Steel?

Yes and kind of. My friend jokingly described Grave Digger as "Grover singing metal". Some Grave Digger I can listen to, but on some Chris Boltendahl's voice really bothers me. I want to make it clear that I'm not saying you can't like a "bad" singer, I'm just saying that I can't stand people that don't recognize that there are technically good and bad vocalists.

JRA

06-06-2009, 07:43 AM

I'm just saying that I can't stand people that don't recognize that there are technically good and bad vocalists.

Oh I understand that there are good and bad vocalists, but I don't think the way to judge that is based so much on technical ability as much as it is how you can make your voice compliment the type of music you're playing.

Paul Balloff, Quorthon, James Hetfield, and Troy Sanders in and of themselves are mediocre singers at best. But put some heavy riffs behind them and suddenly their vocals have a purpose.

SomewhereInTime72

06-06-2009, 09:41 AM

I am sick to death of the idiotic notion that there is no way to technically judge a singer, and expression is all that matters. This is the biggest load of bullshit in the entire world. If there was no CORRECT way to sing, there would be no such thing as vocal coaches. No such term as vocal technique. You wouldn't have people attending universities for vocal performance. I'm not saying there is only one exact way to sing, there are certainly many. But certain techniques and qualities are pretty much all-encompassing for all vocal styles. Saying that you don't need to be a "good" singer is a bullshit excuse. To someone with a musical ear, hearing a bad singer is as bad as hearing a band who play with their guitars out of tune, or a drummer who can't stay in time.

And I don't intend to change anyone's mind here. I merely wish to explain my own opinions.
Well your argument would make sense if Hetfield actually did break any of the core vocal rules.

Maiden33

06-06-2009, 09:44 AM

Well your argument would make sense if Hetfield actually did break any of the core vocal rules.

my main point there wasn't really anti-Hetfield. Just defending my belief system that you can say someone is a "good" or "bad" singer. In the grand scheme of singers, Hetfield isn't anywhere near one of my least favorites, I just don't think he's very good.

SomewhereInTime72

06-06-2009, 09:45 AM

my main point there wasn't really anti-Hetfield. Just defending my belief system that you can say someone is a "good" or "bad" singer. In the grand scheme of singers, Hetfield isn't anywhere near one of my least favorites, I just don't think he's very good.

Oh okay, then yeah I'm kinda with you.

rjturtle9

06-06-2009, 10:01 AM

my main point there wasn't really anti-Hetfield. Just defending my belief system that you can say someone is a "good" or "bad" singer. In the grand scheme of singers, Hetfield isn't anywhere near one of my least favorites, I just don't think he's very good.

oh well u should have said that sooner. i agree with that not matter how much i love metallica

Indestructible

06-08-2009, 05:08 PM

im sure its better than the slayer version and whats with the metallica hate here

SerpentineVIVIVI

06-08-2009, 05:12 PM

im sure its better than the slayer version and whats with the metallica hate here

:lol::lol::lol:

What crack are you snorting?

mankvill

06-08-2009, 05:30 PM

im sure its better than the slayer version and whats with the metallica hate here

it seems to me that some of the earlier debate concerned two seperate issues, whether someone is a good singer or a good vocalist. to me there is a huge difference. Hetfield might not be the greatest singer, and sometimes makes me laugh with how bad he sounds, listen to live recordings of him in like 1983, its pretty funny, but I think he is a great vocalist for their musical style
it is also a musical culture issue, is someone good at what they do rather than be a good singer?, take another example, do i think vince neal of motley crue is the greatest singer in the world, hell no. but do I think he's a great vocalist for what he does for their style of music, hell yes I do. If this makes any sense
cause if you wanted to judge bands based upon singing ability, any band that screams by definition would suck, but most of those never claim to be good singers, but yet are often awsome vocalists for their style of music

Maiden33

06-09-2009, 08:19 PM

any band that screams by definition would suck

I'm going to open up a huge can of worms here, but I pretty much agree with that.

SomewhereInTime72

06-09-2009, 08:23 PM

I'm going to open up a huge can of worms here, but all power metal sucks.

The_jman

06-09-2009, 08:24 PM

I'm going to open up a huge can of worms here, but I pretty much agree with that.
lol, and about 2 years ago I woulda agreed with you, but I've learned to appreciate them for being good at what they do, and not the greatest singers. and have come to recognize that even among the world of screaming, there are vocalists who are good at it, and those who are not. But, I'm not trying to convince anyone here, and I'm not sure, but I think you sort of missed the point of my earlier post.

Maiden33

06-09-2009, 08:25 PM

I'm going to open up a huge can of worms here, but all power metal sucks.

Nah, not going to argue... even though I know you like Symphony X, who even though I don't classify them as power metal, are certainly close enough that it doesn't make a lot of sense to like them but hate the entire genre.

I really don't give a flying fuck what any of you people think anymore. I am entitled to my own opinion.

powerslave_85

06-09-2009, 08:26 PM

I feel like in a lot of extreme metal, the vocals function more as an additional instrument than as a way of conveying lyrics.

mankvill

06-09-2009, 08:26 PM

I'm going to open up a huge can of worms here, but all power metal sucks.

:blaze:

The_jman

06-09-2009, 08:27 PM

and all semblence of an intelligent conversation devolves. lol

Maiden33

06-09-2009, 08:28 PM

:blaze:

You were just expressing you're love of Dragonforce in another thread. There is something wrong with you.

The_jman

06-09-2009, 08:29 PM

I feel like in a lot of extreme metal, the vocals function more as an additional instrument than as a way of conveying lyrics.
That's a pretty valid point, I never really considered that.

mankvill

06-09-2009, 08:30 PM

You were just expressing you're love of Dragonforce in another thread. There is something wrong with you.

They are EXTREEEEEEEEEEEEEEME power metal

powerslave_85

06-09-2009, 08:30 PM

Good lord. Sometimes the arguments about power metal on this site make abortion debates seem like calm, rational discussion.

The_jman

06-09-2009, 08:34 PM

Good lord. Sometimes the arguments about power metal on this site make abortion debates seem like calm, rational discussion.
Lol, frankly I've never heard any power metal, outside of a little dragonforce, so I can't really say one way or another.

SomewhereInTime72

06-09-2009, 08:34 PM

I was just trollin', guys. :eyes:

mankvill

06-09-2009, 08:34 PM

Good lord. Sometimes the arguments about power metal on this site make abortion debates seem like calm, rational discussion.

power metal > babies

in terms of importance

SomewhereInTime72

06-09-2009, 08:38 PM

power metal > babies

in terms of importance

Well of course, but how can you even justly compare an artistic and cultural movement to useless pseudohumans that only add to the global overpopulation problem? :D

The_jman

06-09-2009, 08:39 PM

on another note, if I wanted to listen to power metal and haven't really had much exposure to it, who should I check out first?

mankvill

06-09-2009, 08:39 PM

Well of course, but how can you even justly compare an artistic and cultural movement to useless pseudohumans that only add to the global overpopulation problem? :D

...uh...

um...

babies should be born in the cemetery
under the light of the MOOOOOOOOOOOOOOON

Maiden33

06-09-2009, 08:42 PM

Lol, frankly I've never heard any power metal, outside of a little dragonforce, so I can't really say one way or another.

It saddens me that Dragonforce are actually becoming the flagship band for the genre. It's pathetic.
Dragonforce are absolutely everything that's wrong with power metal, everything people (including power metal fans) make fun of the genre for, turned up about 150 times past normal. Yet it is embraced.
:hecho::mad:

The_jman

06-09-2009, 08:45 PM

It saddens me that Dragonforce are actually becoming the flagship band for the genre. It's pathetic.
Dragonforce are absolutely everything that's wrong with power metal, everything people (including power metal fans) make fun of the genre for, turned up about 150 times past normal. Yet it is embraced.
:hecho::mad:
In my own defense, I only called them power metal cause others on the cite have called them that, I had actually never heard of power metal until a few weeks ago, so...yeah.

Maiden33

06-09-2009, 08:48 PM

on another note, if I wanted to listen to power metal and haven't really had much exposure to it, who should I check out first?

This is actually taken from a recommendation list I did for someone else, but basically, this is my list of "essential" power metal albums:

These are generally all very highly regarded albums by highly regarded bands. You hardly ever find a fan of he genre that dislikes these bands, and of their fans, these are generally the highest regarded albums.
-Edguy - Hellfire Club and Mandrake
-Stratovarius - Visions
-Gamma Ray - land of the Free
-Sonata Arctica - Ecliptica and Silence
-Blind Guardian - Imaginations From the Other Side
-Helloween - Keeper of the 7 Keys 1 and 2
-Angra - Rebirth
-Kamelot - Epica and the Black Halo
-Primal Fear - Seven Seals

And these are some albums that overall are by less popular bands, but I consider a number of these to be better than a lot of the over-hyped popular albums by the popular bands.
-Nocturnal Rites - Shadowland and Grand Illusion
-Dungeon - Resurrection and One Step Beyond
-Firewind - Allegiance
-Hibria - Defying the Rules
-At Vance - Only Human
-Vision Divine - Stream of Consciousness
-labyrinth - Return to Heaven Denied
-Masterplan - Masterplan and Aeronautics
-Twilightning - Delerium Veil

mankvill

06-09-2009, 08:51 PM

It saddens me that Dragonforce are actually becoming the flagship band for the genre. It's pathetic.
Dragonforce are absolutely everything that's wrong with power metal, everything people (including power metal fans) make fun of the genre for, turned up about 150 times past normal. Yet it is embraced.
:hecho::mad:

Dragonforce is power metal
Dragonforce is popular
therefore:
Dragonforce is the gateway for a lot of kids into power metal.

:shred: and they fucking rule

The_jman

06-09-2009, 08:54 PM

This is actually taken from a recommendation list I did for someone else, but basically, this is my list of "essential" power metal albums:

These are generally all very highly regarded albums by highly regarded bands. You hardly ever find a fan of he genre that dislikes these bands, and of their fans, these are generally the highest regarded albums.
-Edguy - Hellfire Club and Mandrake
-Stratovarius - Visions
-Gamma Ray - land of the Free
-Sonata Arctica - Ecliptica and Silence
-Blind Guardian - Imaginations From the Other Side
-Helloween - Keeper of the 7 Keys 1 and 2
-Angra - Rebirth
-Kamelot - Epica and the Black Halo
-Primal Fear - Seven Seals

And these are some albums that overall are by less popular bands, but I consider a number of these to be better than a lot of the over-hyped popular albums by the popular bands.
-Nocturnal Rites - Shadowland and Grand Illusion
-Dungeon - Resurrection and One Step Beyond
-Firewind - Allegiance
-Hibria - Defying the Rules
-At Vance - Only Human
-Vision Divine - Stream of Consciousness
-labyrinth - Return to Heaven Denied
-Masterplan - Masterplan and Aeronautics
-Twilightning - Delerium Veil
Thanks, I shall have to investigate these, or some of them anyway, do you happen to have one favorite?

Maiden33

06-09-2009, 08:57 PM

Thanks, I shall have to investigate these, or some of them anyway, do you happen to have one favorite?

Hmmm. Personally I'd probably go for Edguy. But if I could extend it just a little, I'd say Edguy, Blind Guardian, Dungeon, Nocturnal Rites, Stratovarius, and Gamma Ray, in approximately that order.
That's within this subgenre though. Most of my top 10-12 favorite bands aren't truly power metal.

SomewhereInTime72

06-09-2009, 09:02 PM

Dragonforce is fast solos and catchy choruses
Dragonforce is popular
therefore:
Dragonforce makes nerds with no taste in music think they're metal.

:axe: and they fucking suck

fixed this for you, man.

The_jman

06-09-2009, 09:08 PM

fixed this for you, man.
You know and just the other day I was thinking that I hadn't seen many arguments on this cite, that everyone seemed to respect each other's musical taste.
ah... but ignorance sure was bliss

JRA

06-09-2009, 09:09 PM

power metal > babies

in terms of importance

COME ON DOWN!!!

You're the next contestant on "Josh's new signature!"

For the record, I would like to state Opeth > babies.

Maiden33

06-09-2009, 09:11 PM

You know and just the other day I was thinking that I hadn't seen many arguments on this cite, that everyone seemed to respect each other's musical taste.
ah... but ignorance sure was bliss

This is kind of how this board works. Everything is very harmonious until something ignites an argument, then generally all hell breaks loose. Usually I have some part of it. Not that I am an instigator, I just happen to say something that unintentionally initiates an argument. We're a very diverse groups of people musically speaking. Traditional metal (primarily Iron Maiden, but also Priest, Sabbath) is really the only thing we all generally agree on liking.
EDIT: I should mention that the argument usually lasts all of about a day (maybe 2 or so, see our Year End Album Polls), but eventually we all just return to a perfectly normal state.

The_jman

06-09-2009, 09:17 PM

This is kind of how this board works. Everything is very harmonious until something ignites an argument, then generally all hell breaks loose. Usually I have some part of it. Not that I am an instigator, I just happen to say something that unintentionally initiates an argument. We're a very diverse groups of people musically speaking. Traditional metal (primarily Iron Maiden, but also Priest, Sabbath) is really the only thing we all generally agree on liking.
EDIT: I should mention that the argument usually lasts all of about a day (maybe 2 or so, see our Year End Album Polls), but eventually we all just return to a perfectly normal state.
should I maybe keep to myself that I'm not extremely fond of maiden?
although in my defense I've not had as much exposure to it as I would like, so really can't judge.

something I hope to remedy soon.

SomewhereInTime72

06-09-2009, 09:25 PM

You know and just the other day I was thinking that I hadn't seen many arguments on this cite, that everyone seemed to respect each other's musical taste.
ah... but ignorance sure was bliss

Nah, the only time we ever really get into big arguments is at the end of the year. :lol: A difference of opinion here is commonplace though, but that just keeps us in wavy homeostasis for the most part. ;) :tongue:

edit: If you're not into Maiden it's not really that bad, but if you diss them - well, this board is like 75% Maiden fanboys and there probably would be a backlash. :lol:

The_jman

06-09-2009, 09:28 PM

Nah, the only time we ever really get into big arguments is at the end of the year. :lol: A difference of opinion here is commonplace though, but that just keeps us in wavy homeostasis for the most part. ;) :tongue:

edit: If you're not into Maiden it's not really that bad, but if you diss them - well, this board is like 75% Maiden fanboys and there probably would be a backlash. :lol:
don't worry I have no desire to bash on them, they're just not my favorite.

Div

06-09-2009, 09:29 PM

Nah, the only time we ever really get into big arguments is at the end of the year.

or when someone decides to bring up the P word :eyes:

Maiden33

06-09-2009, 09:29 PM

This board was basically created as an off-shoot from the old Iron Maiden forum. Pretty much all of our original active posters came directly from there, myself included. A good number have disappeared over the years, but I know there are a number of them still around.

The_jman

06-09-2009, 09:33 PM

This board was basically created as an off-shoot from the old Iron Maiden forum. Pretty much all of our original active posters came directly from there, myself included. A good number have disappeared over the years, but I know there are a number of them still around.
cool, I love maiden's instrumentation, its their singer I occasionally take issue with, but not opening up that can of worms, he's just not my favorite.

Derelict

06-10-2009, 06:38 AM

i love lamp

JRA

06-10-2009, 06:43 AM

edit: If you're not into Maiden it's not really that bad, but if you diss them - well, this board is like 75% Maiden fanboys and there probably would be a backlash. :lol:

Yea, being a casual Maiden fan or just not getting around to listening to them is fine with me, everybody's gotta start somewhere. Its the people that go "LOL THEY STILL HAVE FANS" I take issue with.

The_jman

06-10-2009, 07:47 AM

Yea, being a casual Maiden fan or just not getting around to listening to them is fine with me, everybody's gotta start somewhere. Its the people that go "LOL THEY STILL HAVE FANS" I take issue with.
No, I'm not like that, I've heard some of the live recordings, and think its incredible that one band can touch so many people as to have the crowd singing so loud you can't hear the singer, no matter where they go.

es156

06-10-2009, 09:36 AM

should I maybe keep to myself that I'm not extremely fond of maiden?
although in my defense I've not had as much exposure to it as I would like, so really can't judge.

something I hope to remedy soon.

We will give you about 30 days to work on that before we ban you.

;)

The_jman

06-10-2009, 11:09 AM

We will give you about 30 days to work on that before we ban you.

;)
lol, working on it. Think I'm settling into a casual fan. I might become more of one, if youtube didn't keep skipping.

ravenheart

06-10-2009, 11:15 AM

You also failed to mention James' rhythm playing.

I was going to add this. He's a killer rhythm player.

rjturtle9

06-10-2009, 02:58 PM

We will give you about 30 days to work on that before we ban you.

;)

haha damn

but yeah on this board there are arguments, but that's the reason why i love this site soo much. it's a good way to hear different sides and that keeps me wanting to come back here. it's fun expressing and hearing different opinions