Mentec US is gone! - DEC

This is a discussion on Mentec US is gone! - DEC ; www.mentec-inc.com , the link to the US Mentec site, is gone. They've
apparently closed their US office. www.mentec.com is their world-wide
site, but there's no mention of PDP-11 anywhere.
Maybe this is a sign that PDP-11 is *really* gone......

Mentec US is gone!

www.mentec-inc.com, the link to the US Mentec site, is gone. They've
apparently closed their US office. www.mentec.com is their world-wide
site, but there's no mention of PDP-11 anywhere.

Maybe this is a sign that PDP-11 is *really* gone...

Re: Mentec US is gone!

Stanley F. Quayle wrote:
> www.mentec-inc.com, the link to the US Mentec site, is gone. They've
> apparently closed their US office. www.mentec.com is their world-wide
> site, but there's no mention of PDP-11 anywhere.
>

www.mentec-inc.com gives me an "Under Construction" page whilewww.mentec.com gives me a server error. As far as I remember the main
site never did mention the PDP stuff.
> Maybe this is a sign that PDP-11 is *really* gone...

Maybe this means Mentec might be open to discussions about a PDP-11
Hobbyist program again.

Re: Mentec US is gone!

In article <1164914470.989851.318890@80g2000cwy.googlegroups.c om>,
"johnhreinhardt@yahoo.com" writes:
>
> Stanley F. Quayle wrote:
>> www.mentec-inc.com, the link to the US Mentec site, is gone. They've
>> apparently closed their US office. www.mentec.com is their world-wide
>> site, but there's no mention of PDP-11 anywhere.
>>
>
> www.mentec-inc.com gives me an "Under Construction" page while
> www.mentec.com gives me a server error. As far as I remember the main
> site never did mention the PDP stuff.
>
>> Maybe this is a sign that PDP-11 is *really* gone...
>
> Maybe this means Mentec might be open to discussions about a PDP-11
> Hobbyist program again.

Re: Mentec US is gone!

Mentec Ireland has been taken over by a company called Calyx. I don't
know how this affects the US company, as they were never closely
aligned from the beginning. The Irish company hasn't supported PDP's
since the late 90's (roughly the same time I left them, but that's just
coincidence!). Their web site is up and running now, but absolutely no
mention of PDP's.

Re: Mentec US is gone!

John Whistler wrote:
> Mentec Ireland has been taken over by a company called Calyx. I don't
> know how this affects the US company, as they were never closely
> aligned from the beginning. The Irish company hasn't supported PDP's
> since the late 90's (roughly the same time I left them, but that's just
> coincidence!). Their web site is up and running now, but absolutely no
> mention of PDP's.
>
> John.

What I'd like to know is what does this mean for the status of the
PDP-11 software. Does that move along to Calyx? Does it revert to HP?
Is it left totally abandoned? Certainly reverting to HP would be good
for us hobbyists as they've been amazing to the nerd community in a
dozen and one ways (The OpenVMS Hobby program, giving away actual
physical copies of HP-UX to anyone who asks, releasing their graphing
calculator firmware under the GPL, open-sourcing the PDP-10 OSes and
layered products...) and would probably be more willing to allow the
nerd with an -11 in his basement to run DEC OSes and stuff without
making him (or her) buy an expensive license.

No idea whether Calyx would be good or bad, but it's hard to imagine
them being nastier to hobbyists than Mentec was.

If the copyright is just left orphaned, then I guess that's OK for
hobbyists as well, as it opens up the doors of free redistribution, but
would probably be bad for those proud few still using the -11 in their
businesses.

Any ideas?

Re: Mentec US is gone!

"madcrow" writes:
> What I'd like to know is what does this mean for the status of the PDP-11
> software. Does that move along to Calyx? Does it revert to HP? Is it left
> totally abandoned? Certainly reverting to HP would be good for us hobbyists
> as they've been amazing to the nerd community in a dozen and one ways (The
> OpenVMS Hobby program, giving away actual physical copies of HP-UX to anyone
> who asks, releasing their graphing calculator firmware under the GPL,
> open-sourcing the PDP-10 OSes and layered products...) and would probably be
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
> more willing to allow the nerd with an -11 in his basement to run DEC OSes
> and stuff without making him (or her) buy an expensive license.

I'm not going to address the rest of this, but I have to point out that the
36-bit hobbyist license was created by DIGITAL, through the offices of an
engineering VP by the name of Robert Supnik, prior to the sale of the company
to Compaq. HP never had a thing to do with it--and with the sale of Digital to
Compaq the 36-bit IP moved to XKL anyway.

Re: Mentec US is gone!

In article <1166132485.290642.242650@79g2000cws.googlegroups.c om>,
"madcrow" writes:
> John Whistler wrote:
>> Mentec Ireland has been taken over by a company called Calyx. I don't
>> know how this affects the US company, as they were never closely
>> aligned from the beginning. The Irish company hasn't supported PDP's
>> since the late 90's (roughly the same time I left them, but that's just
>> coincidence!). Their web site is up and running now, but absolutely no
>> mention of PDP's.
>>
>> John.
>
> What I'd like to know is what does this mean for the status of the
> PDP-11 software. Does that move along to Calyx?

The norm is for assets to go to the company that does the buying. The
big question is more on the status of the American arm of Mentec as they
were the only ones who seemed to have anything to do with the PDP-11.
> Does it revert to HP?

Not likely. And also not likely that HP would even want it.
> Is it left totally abandoned?

Legally, that never happens.
> Certainly reverting to HP would be good
> for us hobbyists as they've been amazing to the nerd community in a
> dozen and one ways (The OpenVMS Hobby program, giving away actual
> physical copies of HP-UX to anyone who asks, releasing their graphing
> calculator firmware under the GPL, open-sourcing the PDP-10 OSes and
> layered products...) and would probably be more willing to allow the
> nerd with an -11 in his basement to run DEC OSes and stuff without
> making him (or her) buy an expensive license.

Tell that to the people who wanted permission to run Ultrix-32. Hp's
response was go run NetBSD.
>
> No idea whether Calyx would be good or bad, but it's hard to imagine
> them being nastier to hobbyists than Mentec was.

It is much more likely that they will have no interest in the PDP-11
at all and will just let it languish. That, of course, will not give
hobbyists the carte-blanche they want.
>
> If the copyright is just left orphaned, then I guess that's OK for
> hobbyists as well, as it opens up the doors of free redistribution, but
> would probably be bad for those proud few still using the -11 in their
> businesses.

And, it would also be illegal. Copyrights are never "abandoned". Unless
the owner explicitly releases the software either to the public domain
or under something like the BSD License or the Gnu Public Virus then it
remains their property and bound by their rules. That means without an
explicit license to do so, it would be illegal to use it on anything.
>
> Any ideas?

Well, people might try a dose of reality. This probably signals the
impending end to the RT-11/RSTS/RSX era.

When did this happen and where's the source, Luke? :-)
--
"The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download

Legalize Adulthood!

Re: Mentec US is gone!

"Bill Gunshannon" wrote in message
news:4ueiueF17uuivU1@mid.individual.net...
>>
>> If the copyright is just left orphaned, then I guess that's OK for
>> hobbyists as well, as it opens up the doors of free redistribution, but
>> would probably be bad for those proud few still using the -11 in their
>> businesses.
>
> And, it would also be illegal. Copyrights are never "abandoned". Unless
> the owner explicitly releases the software either to the public domain
> or under something like the BSD License or the Gnu Public Virus then it
> remains their property and bound by their rules. That means without an
> explicit license to do so, it would be illegal to use it on anything.
>

But if nobody is there to "enforce" it (the company no longer exists and/or
the new owners can't be bothered to do anything about it), does it really
matter?
>>
>> Any ideas?
>
> Well, people might try a dose of reality. This probably signals the
> impending end to the RT-11/RSTS/RSX era.
>

In a production environment, probably. But what about in the hobbyist
environment?

Re: Mentec US is gone!

[Please do not mail me a copy of your followup]

"Giorgio Ungarelli" spake the secret code <4582eeaf$1_6@news.bluewin.ch> thusly:
>But if nobody is there to "enforce" it (the company no longer exists and/or
>the new owners can't be bothered to do anything about it), does it really
>matter?

Yes, because at a later date they can always decide that they *do*
care and then you'll be in a situation where you've knowingly violated
the law and they can hold you accountable for it.

Just because a house is unlocked doesn't give you right of entry.
--
"The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download

What you and others in this thread have so far neglected is that Mentec
did not outright "own" RSX, RT, and RSTS/E in the sense that you think.

My eyes always quickly glazed over whenever the full details were being
discussed, but my impression in the mid 90's was that Mentec was
required by agreement with DEC to:

1. Sell a copy of the documentation along with the software license.

2. The documentation was still being printed by DEC and Mentec had to
buy it from DEC.

3. DEC's cooperation in printing manuals was not always the most
tlmely.

4. DEC's prices for the documentation would be regarded by many here as
"too high". Of course in some cases we were talking about tens of
thousands of sheets of paper in fancy binders (although I recall some
mini-crisis in the 90's when the proper color binders became
unavailable.)

Note that the above is mostly heresay, I never actually saw the details
of the agreement between DEC and Mentec. Most of the details I knew, I
knew about ONLY because there was some mini-crisis in getting
documentation from DEC so that a license could be sold.

As of the time I stopped pushing heavily for hobbyist distributions
(around 2000) some of the difficulties I knew about, and others that I
never understood at all, were still being wrangled between the lawyers.
Some progress had been made. Mentec at one point had a web page with
pictures of the hobbyist distro CD's I had pressed (this was, I think
circa 2003).

I really hope that someday this all gets resolved. I had a lot of fun
recovering old copies of RSTS/E, RT-11, and RSX-11 for the project, and
many folks who read here helped out, Thanks!

Tim.

Re: open sourcing PDP-10 OSes (was: Mentec US is gone!)

[Please do not mail me a copy of your followup]

Rich Alderson spake the secret code thusly:
>legalize+jeeves@mail.xmission.com (Richard) writes:
>
>> [Please do not mail me a copy of your followup]
>
>> "madcrow" spake the secret code
>> <1166132485.290642.242650@79g2000cws.googlegroups.c om> thusly:
>
>>> [...] open-sourcing the PDP-10 OSes and
>>> layered products...) [...]
>
>> When did this happen and where's the source, Luke? :-)
>
>As I noted in a followup to madcrow, it was prior to the Compaq acquisition.
>
>See http://pdp-10.trailing-edge.com/ for details, including a copy of the
>license. Yes, that's Tim Shoppa's company serving it up.

Re: Mentec US is gone!

On Fri, 15 Dec 2006 shoppa@trailing-edge.com wrote:
> My eyes always quickly glazed over whenever the full details were being
> discussed, but my impression in the mid 90's was that Mentec was
> required by agreement with DEC to:
> ...
> 2. The documentation was still being printed by DEC and Mentec had
> to buy it from DEC.

That would explain why, when we got new RSX documentation for Y2K that
it came with Compaq covers.
> ...
> 4. DEC's prices for the documentation would be regarded by many
> here as "too high". Of course in some cases we were talking about
> tens of thousands of sheets of paper in fancy binders (although I
> recall some mini-crisis in the 90's when the proper color binders
> became unavailable.)

I could go along with that. I don't know what the price was, but the
manuals we received were definitely of lower quality than the older
manuals we already had. Mostly because they were photocopies of the
V4.3 manuals. The V4.3 manuals had at least two colour printing for
examples etc. All became b/w once photocopied. All came in white(!)
binders without the inserts for the front of the binder and with wrong
colour spine inserts.

Re: Mentec US is gone!

In article <4582eeaf$1_6@news.bluewin.ch>,
"Giorgio Ungarelli" writes:
> "Bill Gunshannon" wrote in message
> news:4ueiueF17uuivU1@mid.individual.net...
>>>
>>> If the copyright is just left orphaned, then I guess that's OK for
>>> hobbyists as well, as it opens up the doors of free redistribution, but
>>> would probably be bad for those proud few still using the -11 in their
>>> businesses.
>>
>> And, it would also be illegal. Copyrights are never "abandoned". Unless
>> the owner explicitly releases the software either to the public domain
>> or under something like the BSD License or the Gnu Public Virus then it
>> remains their property and bound by their rules. That means without an
>> explicit license to do so, it would be illegal to use it on anything.
>>
>
> But if nobody is there to "enforce" it (the company no longer exists and/or
> the new owners can't be bothered to do anything about it), does it really
> matter?

So if the cops ain't looking it's OK for me to heist your TV, right?
>
>>>
>>> Any ideas?
>>
>> Well, people might try a dose of reality. This probably signals the
>> impending end to the RT-11/RSTS/RSX era.
>>
>
> In a production environment, probably. But what about in the hobbyist
> environment?

Being a hobbyist does not give you the right to use someone else's
property. I have a friend who is a TV show addict. Can he start
using your VCD to tape shows, without your permission, of course.
I am beginning to think maybe the RIAA is right!!

Re: Mentec US is gone!

On 2006-12-16, Bill Gunshannon wrote:
> Being a hobbyist does not give you the right to use someone else's
> property. I have a friend who is a TV show addict. Can he start
> using your VCD to tape shows, without your permission, of course.

That's ok, it just sits around else :-)

I think the problem is not that people want to steal Mentec's licenses but
rather that most don't have the capital to pay a "real" license.
Since they are ready to pay a smaller fee, as the VMS Hobbyist program has
shown, I think they _would_ make more profits if they were allowed to just hand
a copy of the distribution media or allow to copy it.