Now that a precedent has been set I expect we will get more commerce. I wonder how much longer till we get rid of the principles and just become one big rave with ppl trying to get cash every chance they get.

What do you guys have against commerce, anyway? There's nothing in the Burning Man ethos against Commerce... We spend shitloads of money to get to the playa so we can stop shopping once we get out there. It's commodification we're against, you know, reducing an experience to a transaction. But without commerce, society would actually cease to exist.

I think the question here, again, is where eplaya falls on the commerce continuum. On the actual playa, we don't allow any commerce whatsoever (except coffee and ice). At the gate, however, we sell tickets. In Reno, we have an annual orgy of commercial consumption. Before we get to Reno, we have fundraisers and happy hours and decoms and lots of other events that involve some level of commerce.

Decommodification
In order to preserve the spirit of gifting, our community seeks to create social environments that are unmediated by commercial sponsorships, transactions, or advertising. We stand ready to protect our culture from such exploitation. We resist the substitution of consumption for participatory experience.

So, is eplaya one of those social environments that has no transactions whatsoever? Or is it a forum for helping folks get themselves and their art to the playa (like our regional lists). If that's what it's here for, then why not allow fundraisers? Why allow us to recommend products (and make money for other people!) without allowing people to try to, in burner-like ways, raise some cash to get more art to the playa?

AntiM wrote:A thought ... what if we move all fundraisers to the Events and regionals forum?

Ah, segregation.

I think that's a great compromise, allowing the camps to fundraise without having unwanted ads in our faces on the other threads.

Why should our community compromise? The eplaya has a TOS and Community Guidelines for a reason. Someone somewhere spent alot of time drafting it to discourage commerce (specifically including sweepstakes) because this is e-playa, not e-defaultia. Alot of us happen to like the 10 principles our community is founded upon. If those principles were to be abandoned further for the sake of compromise do you really think Burningman will get better? Think about it.. Its bad enough they sell ice and coffee to draw less than radically self reliant folks. If folks don't like the principles there are plenty of other parties to goto.

We are a fluid, changing community, and stomping on the commerce people ... it's wearing. Very wearing. Because you tell camps you know that the one reliable venue that reaches a lot of burners won't let them try to raise funds to bring wonderful things to the playa ... you begin to wonder, what's more valuable? The ten principles or the burners behind the event? You try being the No Commerce Asshole for a year. It totally sucks asswater. It isn't who I want to be, and I promise, it isn't who you'd want to be in the long run either.

I reread the ten principles as posted on the Main Site. Huh. No where does it say No Commerce. The survival guide instructs us not to buy or sell or barter at the event. We can choose not to buy ice or coffee, to avoid Center Camp. Center Camp hasn't let in vendors, our precious ideals are safe.

Sorry, the eplaya ain't the event by a long shot or we'd be a hell of a lot nicer to the newbs and the clueless.

GiftingBurning Man is devoted to acts of gift giving. The value of a gift is unconditional. Gifting does not contemplate a return or an exchange for something of equal value.

DecommodificationIn order to preserve the spirit of gifting, our community seeks to create social environments that are unmediated by commercial sponsorships, transactions, or advertising. We stand ready to protect our culture from such exploitation. We resist the substitution of consumption for participatory experience.

COMMERCIAL advertising and transactions ... which fundraisers are not, they're private, interactive events. Sure theme camps are gifts, but they cost someone a buttload of money and what is so wrong about offering a creative way for interested people to help fund a camp? That's not corporate sponsorship, that's self-reliance on the part of the camps, finding a way to make money to create the camp. I can see it both ways.

I feel as though I am discussing scripture; purity of the event, purity of eplaya. This leaves a very, very bad taste in my mouth. I like the ten principles, I hate dogma.

Expected Behavior... * The ePlaya is a no-commerce zone. Recommending a good deal you found is acceptable, gifting is always encouraged. Advertising items or services for sale or trade will not be tolerated.

Which means the carport covers and the dome for sale were deleted. No question, simple. However, this would exclude the rideshares and the shipping containers. These are extremely useful resources and the eplaya reaches a lot of newbs and vets looking for answers. To me, the question then becomes, which do I value more, the 10 principles or getting the burners to the playa. Same with theme camp or art installation posts.

I tend to fall toward helping burners get their camps, gears and asses to the playa. Yes, I am "soft" on transportation services and fundraisers. I will be until I am asked not to be. Then I'll nominate others to take on the role of enforcer. Ugly, ugly task.

This is from the Terms of Service. As applied to fundraisers though, parties which raise money are advertised on the JRS, not everyone can throw a big enough party if they aren't in a burner-centric location. So they fall back on to what works on an electronic medium: raffles. The difference, as I see it is they're a theme camp with the intent of raising money to bring an experience to other burners on the playa vs. Publisher's ClearingHouse who is looking to line their pockets.

Should I have to decide? No, but I do. An entity such as PCH has never tried to post on the playa to my knowledge. But burners do try to reach other burners here. I see value in that.

I suppose I am trying to say I'm doing my best to enforce the guidelines, principles and terms, but I also think the spirit of the eplaya is at stake. No, the door shouldn't be wide open, but neither should it be slammed so tightly that the eplaya is hindering burners. The spirit of the thing, not the letter of the law. Obviously, I am less rigorous in my devotions than others.

Oh, BTW, there are three fundraisers posted right now. A party, a raffle for a vibrator, and a raffle for a couch on the playa. Shock shock shock, We're all going to be Mal-Wart Slaves by the end of the year. Spank my ass and make me buy iced coffee at Center Camp. (Sorry, my snark injector went into overdrive for a moment.)

Synner's Paradyse - clearly does not belong. The event features "talent" that is being paid. Sounds like a rave with a promoter who is going to make some proffit.

Smoochdome - Tastefully done. Although the wording could be a little better. At first glance it looks like they are selling a service to be delivered to the playa. It does become clear once you click on their link though.

Orgasmateria's $5 Hitachi Magic Wand Raffle! - Much too blatent and offensive. Should be done like the Smoochdome fundraiser. A simple statement that you are having a fundraiser and here is the link.

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Now what I want to know is at what point does it cease to be a gift? After all, if the members of the BM community fund your gift you aren't really giving it are you? I realize that that is a grey area. but there are other place that this can be done. So keeping it to a simple post like the one that smoochdome did is an acceptable compramise.

Synner's Paradise was posted later, I've just had the chance to look at it. Yeah, raising money for more equipment for bigger parties is not the same as raising money for a theme camp on playa. I wonder if I'll get a response to the PM, most of the time these folks post and run.

I was referring to the Golden Cafe fundraiser. Excellent daytime bar camp with live music and wonderful atmosphere.

didn't see the one for the Golden Cafe. I know who they are though, I stopped in there during the big dust storm last year. It is a really nice Bar and the live band was fun. the place was packed and I do not think it was just because of the dust storm.

Golden Cafe has always been within walking distance of our camp; Lucifer is a great guy who makes sure the place is well run and friendly. I always try to donate some booze or mixers. I've done a few stints as dishwasher too.

Yes, we strive for no commerce here, and case by case, there are theme camps and such which skirt the line. Direct sales and rentals will get the boot. Fundraisers should not be obnoxious. Every now and then I get one where I have to ask the other mods, "Am I crazy for letting this stay up/pulling this one?"

Yes, it is quasi-okay to post camp dues, but a link is more discreet and elegant.

Commerce makes Burning Man happen, the ideal is for such commerce to happen off the playa, off the eplaya, to make the illusion of gift economy seamless.