Posted
by
BeauHDon Thursday April 26, 2018 @06:00AM
from the street-credit dept.

schwit1 shares a report from CBS Local: China is rolling out a high-tech plan to give all of its 1.4 billion citizens a personal score, based on how they behave. But there are consequences if a score gets too low, and for some that's cause for concern. When Liu Hu recently tried to book a flight, he was told he was banned from flying because he was on the list of untrustworthy people. Liu is a journalist who was ordered by a court to apologize for a series of tweets he wrote and was then told his apology was insincere. "I can't buy property. My child can't go to a private school," he said. "You feel you're being controlled by the list all the time." And the list is now getting longer as every Chinese citizen is being assigned a social credit score -- a fluctuating rating based on a range of behaviors. It's believed that community service and buying Chinese-made products can raise your score. Fraud, tax evasion and smoking in non-smoking areas can drop it.

Not for private Chinese schools, they have scholarships for students studying abroad with the hope that a large portion of those will bring back the knowledge and expertise we have here in higher education.

With the Chinese, at least the government is the doing the scoring, so you can understand the nature of the beast, with the US, you're really throwing yourself on the court of public opinion and hoping it isn't spun by Fox News.

And providing your social media accounts is now mandatory to enter the US.

With the Chinese, at least the government is the doing the scoring, so you can understand the nature of the beast
I hope you are joking or this was sarcastic. Chinese transparency isn't high on the priority list in that system of government.

There's a very old Jewish saying: "Pray for the welfare of the government, without which people would eat each other alive".

Historically the treatment of jews by European governments in the last thousand years hasn't been great. And yet they recognized that even a very imperfect government was better than chaos. The trick is how to keep the government aligned with the interests of the people.

Yes, abuses of power will happen; it doesn't mean that power is never used for the common good and should nev

All the stuff that would rate you as an 'asshole' today. Unfortunately, once such a system is in place it becomes very easy to use it to disenfranchise people who disagree with either the current leaders or the whoever is currently best at propaganda. How do you think the racial equality movement in the US in the '60s would have done if anyone involved in antisocial actions had lost the right to vote?

It could possibly be a good idea in theory, but only in theory. Every one of those things you listed has edge cases and/or difference of opinion. Who decides what harassment is? At 2 am even the tiniest sound can wake people who are light sleepers. I'm not into sports at all, but what if I buy a TV on superbowl weekend because of the sales but discover it has some serious usability bugs that could never be observed in a store display?

But most important of all I think is the opportunity for abuse. Have a Hillary (or Trump) sticker on your car? Look at that, your tail light is out. Hey, you just did 1mph over the limit. Your bumper went an inch over the stop line at the red light. But swap one sticker for the other and you could see the cops looking the other way for a 10mph-over infraction. You already have police displaying that sort of discriminatory discretion, but when even more is on the line...the opportunity to remove your political opponents from the voting pool...you can expect it to be much worse.

Remember that everybody starts with a full score. You don't have to work to earn any privileges. They're only taken away after you're an asshole towards the rest of us.

No. They're "only" taken away once some unaccountable bureaucrat on politician's payroll decides without due process that in his opinion you have been an asshole. Very VERY different thing from actually being an asshole.

Yeah, well your advocacy is deemed antisocial, so your score just went off a cliff. No school for your kids!!!

The trouble with advocating authoritarianism the way you do is that it will *always* be used against you. How fast would we have had legalised gay marriages if we were keeping an antisocial scorecard? How long would it have taken to strike-down Jim Crow laws if everyone was kept in check via a non-court scorecard?

Besides, you want these things implemented? Sure. How about I get your score into negative territory by complaining that your music was loud at 2am, or that you were smoking in a no-smoking area, or that you I saw you littering? With no due process how are you going to defend yourself when it's my word against your word?

Take it to court? Sorry. Your advocacy was for bypassing the courts when issuing penalties.

See, the thing is you think your shit don't stink, so these penalties would never apply to you, but the thing your advocating for (bypassing due process) can be used against you by anyone, not just those in power.

You go ahead and get this implemented, but don't cry foul when you get penalised for blaring music at 2am even though you did no such thing. When you bypass due process, you bypass it for everyone, including yourself.

That sounds well and good until you realize that being "anti-social" won't stop society from taking from the people it deems anti-social. I think you'll also find that anti-social is quite open to interpretation and that the worst people will gladly shape it into some awful tyranny. Imagine what the white nationalists might deem as anti-social, and hopefully that gives you enough pause to rethink your idea.

You get roads to travel on, cops to deter people who could hurt you, ambulances to carry your unconscoius body to an ER if you almost die, a working market and currency to exchange goods and services with, a global communications network on which to reach other people, etc.

And when you have a history of antisocial behavior, as is your right, and suddenly want or need something back from society, that's precisely what you can expect the lot of us to respond with, as well.

First off, the points on your license are only lost because of traffic offenses. You don't lose points for tweeting doubleplusungood opinions or shoplifting. And in some countries you only lose points for serious and dangerous traffic violations, not for doing 90 in an 80 zone. Meaning that a string of little offenses does not escalate into seriousy heavy punishment when some arbitrary threshold is crossed
Second, the points (and accompanying fine) are issued administratively, but in most (or all?) countries in Europe you do have the right to go to court if you think there has been a mistake.
Thirdly, if you lose your points you are banned from driving, not from flying or from buying property.

All this honours the idea that the punishment should fit the crime. The Chinese system on the other hand lets a number of small transgressions turn into a life ruining event. And since it bans you from a large number of activitites that are completely unrelated to each other or to the crime, this smells of cruel and unusual punishment and double jeopardy.

Yes, there’s the problem of fallibility, so punishment should err on the side of weak punishment because what if the system made the wrong judgment? and there is the problem of downward spirals, where a few small events are exacerbated.

I don’t mind that they want meticulous discipline - but you don’t get that by ruining people in unfair and cruel ways. You get... you get the opposite. The Chinese system is shooting itself in the foot, as people will conclude that they already live in chaos, not order.

I'm not so sure; from the perspective of an ordinary Chinese (particularly those old enough to remember before the economic boom of the last 20-30 odd years) the party has greatly benefited their country. And when you're winning, you can get away with quite a lot.

Besides from the outside looking in; when they think of the West, what do you suppose their opinion is? (Hint: they probably see us as far more chaotic and disorderly -- they might actually prefer the kind of control outlined in the article.)

Ah, do you mean like making smoking/possession of marijuana a criminal offense and then using that as a basis to disenfranchise people from voting, employment, welfare, etc.? No free country would ever do something like that, would it?

It's possible that's exactly what was meant. Drug laws, and the drug war thingy, is an idea that is a non-starter. It doesn't work. And that holds true even forgetting about how benign pot typically is. It's not some evil force that corrupts our society and our kids, it's something to be judged in rational terms. The harm just ain't there for this little weed. Caution? Yes. Waiting until adulthood? Apparently yes to that too, physiologically. Big time harm? Nope. You'll statistically likely to be more overw

As mentioned above, being antisocial is a pretty vague term and possibly treads on protected speech if you're in a country that protects speech.

The UK has antisocial behavior laws, eg. They can forbid you from doing anything which has caused nuisance to others in the past, eg. ban you from going down a certain street from going into the town center.

However, I do think this would be a good idea if applied to criminal behaviour. Take shitty drivers off the road for driving like dicks, forbid fraudsters and tax evaders from holding business licences and being bondable, that sort of thing. Relevant punishments for relevant crimes.

They don't already do that where you live? Weird.

I'd take it a step further. Anything you do in public that requires somebody else to go around cleaning up after you? Points off your social score. Any sort of violence or intimidation of other people? Points off your score. Any behavior that puts other people at risk? Points off your score. etc., etc.

Nobody's asking you to be an angel, be a miserable git if you want, just don't be a drain on society. Society has enough problems without people like you causing extra expense and cleanups.

You can't stop yourself from being an asshole? Fine, but don't ask for anything in return. Starting with the right to vote.

This would reduce the strain on the prison system if we just limit the freedoms of those who abused their freedoms, rather than locking them up. Only lock up violent psychopaths should be locked up, let the rest of society's fuck-ups walk around less-than-free with their heads hung low.

Agree 100% there. The only people who should be in prison are those who cause physical harm to others (or other people's property).

You sound like a raging control freak. You know, like the kind of insane asshole who rages against small supposed infractions and lets it fester to the point he rents a truck and mows down bystanders just to show them who's boss. Maybe you should be prevented from driving any motor vehicles. Just to be safe.

The Big Brother is raising his younger siblings right. Apologize or go to bed without dinner. What a great prospect for the future. It always starts with 'bad' people and before you know it you are labeled a terrorist for expressing your opinion.

We have "demerit" points on our drivers license here in Ontario. As long as the system is transparent (you broke this law, -25 points, you paid your tax on time, +2 points, etc.) then it's not so bad. Post the account history publicly for each person. However, if the algorithm is a secret, that's a really big problem. You know all the Supreme Leader's buddies are going to have padded scores, right...

You know all the Supreme Leader's buddies are going to have padded scores, right...

You got that wrong. BEING dear leader's buddy IS what pads your score. Criticize dear leader? Down with your score. Praise him publicly? All is forgiven.

Rest assured, you'll find a LOT of people suddenly applauding whoever is in charge, turning fascist, communist or whatever else is currently en vogue at the drop of a hat. "Public opinion" is, in such a system, more akin to an "official opinion".

Transparency won't help. They will just tune the rules to oppress the people they don't like, the same way as they quite openly gerrymander and suppress voters or craft laws that disproportionately criminalize one particular group.

Transparency won't help. They will just tune the rules to oppress the people they don't like, the same way as they quite openly gerrymander and suppress voters or craft laws that disproportionately criminalize one particular group.

Exactly!

Just think of all possible damage that ideologues of all political kinds could do with such system.

"Did not go to church on Sunday -1 point" is as damaging to freedom as "Stared at a young woman's ass -1 point".

Post the account history publicly? Fuck no. It should be available for me to look and verify, but not to others. Not even my SO.Not only should that not be allowed anywhere but for me, the access to the number of points should be extremely strict.

They can ask my drivers license and if I have one, good. If I do not have one, then I might not become a taxi driver. If I am 1 point away from loosing my licence or 50 should not matter.

In Belgium for some jobs you need to show a certificate if there are convictio

Don't tell anyone what rises or lowers your score and you're one step closer to a religion.

But seriously, that would actually increase the effectiveness of something like this. Nobody is better at coming up with things to do and not to do than the people themselves, they'll regulate their lives in ways you wouldn't even think possible just to suck up to big daddy.

And the best part is that they'll bend over backwards and nobody can complain about your ridiculous rules and requirements because you never really imposed them. It wasn't you that told people to assemble in front of dear leader's statue and put down elaborate flower bouquets they get up for at 4am and weave before work with their bare hands, they do it because they love dear leader that much!

And he [the "Beast"] causeth all, both small and great, rich and poor, free and bond, to receive a mark in their right hand, or in their foreheads: And that no man might buy or sell, save he that had the mark, or the name of the beast, or the number of his name. (Revelation 13:16-17 King James Version)

You acts (symbolized by right hand) or thinking (symbolized by forehead) not conforming to society's norms (actually, what society is told the norms are - symbolized by the mark of the beast)? Then you will be censured by restricting your economic activities, even the unrelated ones.

Nice alpha testing there to smooth out the bugs before the international roll-out...

Then there's those Southern Baptists still waiting for the bar code and/or implanted microchip

It is not a social credit score. Social implies that it is somehow derived from how other people perceive you, where each person can have a greatly different view of you. It also implies that everyone is free to use, or not use, these scores as they see fit.

Neither is the case, there is nothing social about it. It is a mandatory government conformance and compliance score. It is an instrument of oppression.

If any western government tried something like this, every single citizen and their dog would know about it. I've asked some locals in China about it, none of them had a clue about what I was talking about.

Yeah, no. Well. You know. It's capitalism. So maybe they could come up with some sort of score based on how much money you have. Or are expected to have. You could call it your "money score." And it'd mostly be made up of good solid math, not Chinese hocus-pocus. Although it'd probably be somewhat ambiguous as to everything that goes into the math. Like, would they consider your facebook behavior in that? It'd probably be fair game. And it would dictate whether you could buy a house or a car. And might be l

Most Chinese believe the propaganda the CCP controlled media is saying about the US. Now, I don't live in China, so my perspective is through the voice of others of what I'm hearing. But I tell you, I strongly believe this Anti-US conditioning is all part of the PLCs plan to take Taiwan by force. If so, we're headed towards thermonuclear confrontation if that happens. I shit you not!

I could see a social credit score system easily coming to the United States because the big data miners like Facebook, Google, Amazon, etc. would drool at the opportunity like that for a new source of revenue. I'll bet even the credit bureaus are watching the experiment in China unfold and are plotting how they could implement a similar system here in the United States.

It already does exist in the US, in various ways. Ask any convicted felon about their experiences finding work, applying for credit, getting housing... "serving your time" extends well past the prison term.

Starting January 22, 2018, passengers with a driver's license issued by a state that is still not compliant with the REAL ID Act (and has not been granted an extension) will need to show an alternative form of acceptable identification for domestic air travel to board their flight.

Yeah - there are consequences for these things here too. I guess the point is that they don't all add up against you but there again there are examples of harsher sentencing for repeat offenders, 3-strikes laws etc.

The problem with your idea is that those are the people who would decide what your "social score" is. Do you really think that the people who covered up Teddy Kennedy leaving a woman to die would have counted any of his anti-social behavior against him? Or that the people who are angry about Donald Trump's alleged sexual harassment but were OK with Bill Clinton's alleged rapes would have evenly applied "social scores"?

Basically, the concept only works if you have honest, trustworthy people to implement it, but if you have such people in positions of power, you don't need it.

Even if Ted diddo that, he simply wasn't emotionally equiped to deal with the problem and has to be forgiven. After all, he is a Kennedy and they are all high IQ geniuses. The people that did the cover-up are the guilty one by hiding the truth from us.

If by throwaway you mean 100% ontopic and relevant and historical then it's because that is how we predict the future, by past experience! Of course not all of us, some of us are more pie in the sky type of ppl. Do you know the definition of insanity ?

My politically charged comments were to show that Trump's political opponents had just as well-known, and possibly more serious, cheating and crimes.

Unfortunately, the right-wing's failure to recognize Trump's own serious crimes and malfeasances is evident, as well as how the Clinton's accusers were guilty of many crimes, including Gingrich, Hyde, Hastert, Livingston and more. That, and how despite decades of trying, the right-wing still relies on specious claims like passing around the so-called "Death List" and completely misrepresenting situations like abortion or immigration.

Not to mention, more recently, characters like Moore himself. And dozen

The thing about planning any far reaching system is that you need to consider what the damage that can be done if people with less-than-noble intentions take control of the system and use it to further their own goals. It's not just the danger conservatives imposing their ideas on how you're supposed to live your life and think taking over the system, there's also their opposite numbers on the extreme who are particularly keen on trying to prevent people from having opinions that differ from their orthodoxy. If implemented as something run by the government this system is particularly vulnerable to politicians coming in and changing what's rewarded and what's punished to fit their goals.

If I had to come up with a name for this, it would be the "Monkey with a machine gun"-principle as I think that explains the idea itself pretty well.

The thing about planning any far reaching system is that you need to consider what the damage that can be done if people with less-than-noble intentions take control of the system and use it to further their own goals

That's the beauty of the Chinese system, Xi is already emperor for life. So that little problem was already sorted out first:)

The problem is in the definition of "misbehave". Because even the examples you give send shivers up my spine. And we didn't even touch the usual "praise dear leader and love The Party" bits that will almost certainly make it into the fold.

Considering this and things like it have been talked about way before that show was made it's less the Chinese looking at a fictional dystopia for ideas to implement and more just the writers of a fictional dystopia hearing about Chinese plans and adding it to their fictional dystopia.

It's a horrifying idea none the less and only made even more horrifying by now having been implemented in the worst way possible in real life. Then again considering all the outrageous ways China has tried to control it's population over the decades in an effort to stop them from realizing the absurdity of their one party system this is probably business as usual from their perspective. If you can get thrown into some local Stasi equivalent's jail with nothing resembling a trial and coerced into confessing to all kinds of crazy things just for running a bookstore that sells books critical of the ruling party and system this may not even register for a lot people.

because our right wing, pro corporate media doesn't cover it. I only know about it because a video blog on youtube called "Extra Credits" covered it. It's horrifying, but what can I do about it? Are we going to punish China for it? No, we are not. We need their cheap goods to maintain our meager quality of life in the face of globalism. This isn't going to change how anyone on this _forum_ votes much less in the country.

Yeah, what a perfect hacking target! It can range from manipulating scores for profit, making your elected officials have really bad scores, slowly and secretly poisoning the data until it's no longer trusted, to destroying it and keeping it destroyed.

Hmm, that reminds me. I wonder what deplorable is being kicked off Twitter or Facebook today. Probably yet another racist sexist xenophobe misogynist transphobic fascist nazi who absolutely deserved it by expressing a harmful or divisive opinion that disagreed with our political stance. It's amazing how many of these dumbasses don't realize that Free speech has its consequences.