Can someone please clarify if ruleset has been changed on TDM
Defoe currently warning for staying in own spawn!

That has never been a rule on TDM in all the years i have played here.
lol that would be at least half of the players kicked including senior admins if thats the case
I know its a rule on FFA and a new one on WAW, but unless there has been a change here that hasn't been posted or in rules, then the warning is wrong?
A few of the long term regular players tried to say this on the server and asked if new rules, but was no answer other than he said its a rule, i genuinely think he has just got servers and associated rules mixed up

Wax (The TDM Head Admin), is a bit restricted at the moment, so myself and Robby are covering TDM during the evening. I will give my view but not an definate answer. That is probably down to Flatty or Wax.

Rule 2 on all COD4 servers state. No Spawn Killing or spawn camping.. So what is what. They can't both be the same.

Spawn killing is surely an enemy sat outside a spawn and waiting for their enemy to spawn, then killing them. Against the rules.
Spawn camping is surely spawning, then camping in your spawn. So you are then shooting out of the spawn thus making it impossibe for the enemy to shoot into the spawn, as they would be spawn killing. So in my view, against the rules. And thus Defoe acted correctly. Because thats how he has been told to interpret the rules in the past.

As far as I'm aware, we have always indicated that as soon as you spawn, you leave the spawn, and don't camp there..

Camping in spawn on TDM has always happened. Garage on Overgrown is one, even head admin sits in there%! Broadcast behind wall, on roof. Favela all over the place, countdown in hangers, could go on with loads more where people camp in spawns and have never been an issue.

Also just to add,when I queried a similar issue on the WAW server I was told the rule had been changed to a no camping in spawn.

So if it had been changed it must have been permitted previously.
So are we saying this is now changed too? If so that’s fine but it needs adding to rule set as it’s never been enforced by anyone in all the years I’ve played here

First you must define what spawn killing actually is, there are a number of vague definitions.

For some, a person that kills someone shortly after they spawn is "spawn killing"

For some, a player that runs around a map, on domination for instance, and goes to the other teams spawn and kills, is spawn killing.

For some, a team that sets up, controlling 2 points of the domination map, or watching a bombsite on snd or demolition, is spawn killing.

For some, spawn killing is when a team has the ability to end the objective game, whether it be plant a bomb or capture the flags, and rather than complete the objective, they let the game go on and continue for kills.

None of these will ever stop, nor can they be stopped.

They have to spawn you some where, as long as they add more spawn points, players will find those and wait too.

Ive never met any player who stops and says. "hey that guy just spawned, let me give him a chance before i kill him"

People that cry about spawn killing are simply getting beat by better players or a better team. Whether you agree or not, if you are being spawn camped its because they other players know what they are doing moreso than you... the exception is, is that you joined a game late, and are trapped by scorestreaks, or an already set up spawn killing fest.

So as long as there are parties, and spawns, there will be spawn killing.

As Tube said , and for me its a main reason why players shouldnt camp on own spawn :

" Spawn camping is surely spawning, then camping in your spawn. So you are then shooting out of the spawn thus making it impossible for the enemy to shoot into the spawn, as they would be spawn killing "

I told this hundreds of times :

Its a bad tactic for your own team mates .
It cause a much more spawnkilling / spawncamping.

Spawncamping is diff and its much worse than spawnkilling in my book.

And i am sure we can agree that campers doing much more spawn camp kills than players who move around.

You are partly right Myst m8 when you say its not in the rule set.
But , we have different interpretation of it as you can see.

And you right that we didnt enforce players to move of their own spawn.

Its not an easy job to change / force some things after a years ,
but we have to try to make our server more popular.

Not talking about spawn killing. That had always been a no no. I'm referring to sitting in spawn. Such as in the garage behind the wall or keep (as a lot do) also nearly every map has somewhere where you spawn and remain.

Did you ever in your time warn for staying in spawn? I know I never did. In fact until last night when one of the regulars got a warning, I had never seen a one.

Hello all.
More a TDM issue then FFA really.
When the opposition has got the enemie pinned down in or near a spawnpoint,
camp near spawn ismore of a necessity then a choise really.

Cause due to the entinsive "combat" going on, it is hard (if not impossible) to move from certain spawn at all..!

But you're right Myst, in saying, the rule in itself, has been applied with a tadd more leniency, as opposed to the FFA server.
Defoe however, coming from that very server, may be less inclined/minded to be just that...(indulgent/moderate)

I personally think admins should, like any referee, should be able to do their thing, according rules,
but also act on what is needed for that particular game(style).
Be firm but not overzealous, warn verbally(chat.) first.
Ask them to please stop what they're doing, then if they do not comply.. give first set warn...
But always with the servers interest in mind...

On FFA it's quite easy, to tell wether or not some is deliberately camping in spawn..
In TDM, i believe, it's a somewhat "grey" aerea. Are they pinned down or ..?

Anyway, me not being a regular(antmore) on tdm... rules are rules.
And meant for all, but...
If we want the server to be full, I think we have to look at what's asked from us at that time in that situation...
Or we'll be running on empty very fast.

I think Red nearly has the crux of it, on TDM it is usually a non issue, and yes Myst is correct certainly not enforced rigidly in the past.
The instances of someone actually sitting right in a spawn point on TDM I don't think I have ever witnessed, close by yes but not right in it which to me is the big difference with FFA where some players spawn and then sit down if you like.
Getting trapped in spawn as a team is also unique to the TDM team game if the opposition are mainly run and gun types or rushers then getting out of spawn area can be problematic on some maps. BUT as an offensive tactic it is perfectly legitimate. So do we penalise the team trapped in spawn or the attackers as spawn killers, no we apply some reasoning and as Red says act on the particular game style and not what is the norm on another server.

Well, I was the one who warned so despite some claims, the player was continually camping in spawn (directly) as I watched the team spawns change sides. I observed this for a while before "asking" him to leave. Myst will know that as admin we're looking for players who are deliberately bending/breaking the the rules. This was the case.

If there ever was a non spoken rule that in some cases in TDM it's ok to camp in spawn it will certainly be up to an admin to decide whether there was a legitimate reason or not i.e. bogged down by the other team. However, the most obvious answer is - when in doubt, follow the letter of the rules.

But more importantly, the player got a quick kick for arguing after being asked to leave the spawn and not for camping in spawn.
What in fact was the case here was four regular players having a long winded go at an admin for "asking" a player to leave spawn.

The abuse thrown by these four players was entirely disrespectful and not in keeping with our clan's rules.

Easy one 1st - not me with a clay there. I only place clays in certain places and have done for as many years as I can recall - at the garage, they go on ravine and garage entrance.
At barn end they go covering ravine. Never anywhere else. as for last night I was never in that building. if something blew up then it could be via a nade blowing up someones clay. certainly not mine

as to the warning, I honestly can say in the years I have played, I have never seen any warning for someone in the spawn, and as above many do so beyond me.
My understanding of Ming, was he was in the shed near the barn spawn not actually in the spawn. if he was spawn killing then 100% for warning but you said spawn camping waiting for them to spawn - surely if that was the case then he would be spawn killing not camping - no warning seen for killing so I guess he wasn't, so again unsure why the warning!

And this is not a dig at all, and certainly not against you, we have known each other for years (hence more surprise) as I said on the server and above, I am genuinely puzzled.

Ming was camping in the spawn between the library and the building next to the stone bridge. Not in the shed on the other side where his team mates were presently spawning.

As I said before and it's in the log, He wasn't kicked for camping, I asked him to leave spawn adding "please'.
He was kicked for continually arguing and being flippant and patronising (spelt correctly .

I asked all four of you to stop arguing in game and repeatedly asked you to take it to the forum which you did. But when you came back to the game you and the others continued to argue.
At that stage you were forcing me to decide whether to give tb's. I didn't because I am "moderate" when necessary and do understand what you have been saying.

show me on the logs where i disrespected you or was rude?
When people questioned the decision all you said is its a rule, a one i and others have never seen made which made us question it. this wasn't an argument, but a series of questions, laboured a bit too much perhaps but nothing was said against you although Ming did make a flippant comment that i pulled him on when you had left as it wasn't needed?

I'm guessing as you have edited your post that accusing me of a clay in spawn was a mistake?

Lastly if you were seriously looking at a !tb for this then that's over the top imo - i didn't even see a !w prior to those of us kicked for trying to discuss (in admin rules to follow)

I was one of the ones kicked by Defoe last night coz he accused me of arguing with him. I was simply asking a question an not being rude. i asked 3 times for the rules to be displayed before he acknowledged. When he started kicking people i said it was a bit childish. At no point from what i saw being typed was anyone rude or arguing with him. I was a senior admin in my last 2 clans an have never known an admin react like that when they were being asked questions.

I got warned by AIms aboiut it too a couple of days ago. No argument with him just didn't understand what he was talking about as I didn't know this was a thing (rule).

I did feel a bit p***sed off (not with Aims) because there are so many players on TDM who seem to never move at all and I always try and move far away from where out team are spawning. It just so happened for once I didn't cos I got tired of getting mown down every time I tried to move. Map was Crash and you know what that can be like when the server is busy.

If its a rule and you are going to enforce it, fine, but be consistent. I've never seen a warning to anyone about this before in all the time I have played on the server.

It's Ming. Ive been playing on this server under many names for more years than I care to recollect. It's still great fun and I'm sorry I caused all this fuss between the players I have enjoyed gaming with over many years.
I wanted to defuse this issue last night as you will see from the logs. As I have been mentioned (by tag) in this thread I feel obliged to clarify a few points.
I was in the position identified by Defoe, by the bridge.
I didn't spawn there - I went there purposely because it's a tactically good place to ambush the enemy crossing the bridge to defend my team.
It may be a random spawn point, but in my experience on your server, if I'm there, the enemy don't spawn there.
I've never spawn killed the enemy in that position - maybe your tech guys can confirm that the enemy can't spawn in that position if its occupied by the opposition on that map?
The nearest active enemy spawn point to there is over by the gas station and the view to that is blocked by the tanker truck.
Defoe will have seen from his observations that at no point did an enemy spawn in that position while I was there and I certainly didn't kill any enemy that had just spawned.
I see that Defoe changed his original post today to confirm that I wasn't watching the enemy team change spawn so I could kill them and I thank him for that.
I'm not that good a player to know when to take advantage of a spawn change. I camp because my fingers, wrists, eyes, reactions and computer are all old and worn. (My tab isn't OGHF but my mentality is).
I also learnt that there is no room for banter on the server with Admins. Thats a pity. Defoe has massacred me on many occasion as he's a better player than I am and I'm sad that a position on that map - that I had used for years- has caused such fuss.

Defoe kicked 4 players quicker than I could shoot them last night. And these were guys that I respect, not just for the gameplay, but for their
interpretation of the rules and their attempt to clarify the rules during the game.
Thanks to those who stuck their necks out and interrupted their own game.
All I ask from Admins is that you be consistent. You have a difficult job and I'm sorry if I made it harder.
But please don't abuse it to the detriment of the server.
Any other old soldiers in here?
Regards

I have been asked to look at all this now by fellow members of the council. And also by Defoe. And to hopefully draw a line under it. This I have now done.

Firstly. Spawn Camping in any form of COD4 on our servers, is against our rules. IE, When you spawn, you're supposed to move away from the spawn area. You must not just spawn and sit there shooting out of the spawn. And the reason for that is obvious. To say it has never been enforced is wrong. I've enforced it when I've played on TDM in the past. But If in general it has never been enforced then it should have been.

So if a player was camping in a spawn, Defoe was correct in telling the player he was in a spawn and then asking the player to, I Quote "Please move". I'm not arguing the what or where for's, of if someone was in a spawn, I wasn't there. I'm saying he had the right to ask someone to move if he thought they were sat in their spawn.

Now I've then, as asked, read the rest of the logs and I'm not going over every comment and reply and question that was thrown at Defoe. But it escalated quickly, and people who it had got nothing do with, quickly got involved. Question after question was thrown at Defoe.. Why ? When ? this? that ? etc etc. By no less than (5) different people. Defoe repeated time after time "take it to the forum" which adventurely it was taken to ... (This thread) . But still questions kept coming and he was forced to kick. I can read some were not happy with that. And wanted an answer. But 5 people all chipping in. I think he had very little choice by this stage. The warnings were there, they don't have to be official !w ones. In those 10 minutes he was accused of Admin abuse and also threatened with being reported and for his admin rights to be taken off him. Totally unacceptable imo. If anyone has any issues with an Admin or any of us. A PM to the Council or to Flatsix if its about a Council member is asked for please..

We have asked Admins to be patient and calm and not over react. Not like in the old days when if things like this happened they got 2 weeks TB for arguing with an Admin by some. Defoe would have been well within his rights to tb for an hour or so to calm it down. But he just kicked to try and make a point. No Admin can deal with 5 different people repeatedly asking them questions, and all getting an answer back to their satisfaction.

We can all look back at chat logs and say you should have done this and you should not have done that. Easy that in the cold light of day. But he did his best in difficult circumstances..
I really hope all those concerned can understand that and accept Defoe had to deal with hard escalating situation there. And he made his call and has my full support.

I see nowhere where he abused anything.

Thank you all for reading this.. I hope we learn from this. And thank you for bringing the initial question regarding spawn camping to the forum.

Spawn killing once or twice may be accident. Spawn killing systematically is breaking the rule.
in the same way
placing a clay near a spawn point may be because you don’t know it’s a spawn = accident. But doing so systematically , is considered spawn killing.

From my point of view, warnings are for informing someone for his mistake or “accident”. kick/tb is for facing the systematic behaviors. So a warning is more a message than an accusition. Not a big deal!

I agree that spawn camping in TDM is a gray area, as said before. But the question here is why to camp in your spawn point? You occupy the point and don’t let others players of your team start there, maybe leaving them in more exposed points to be spawn. If it is not against rules,surely it is a bad practice against your own team.

Closing, we should all consider that the scope of admin is to protect the game in servers when something is going wrong. Nothing more and nothing personal against someone.