I am probably going to get hate mail and flamed for this, but I have a legit question that I need answered. I mean no disrespect to anyone or anyone organization. I just want to get to the bottom of this.

Recently while doing my research into the ryuha of the Bujinkan I have ran into questions about the history of the Togakure Ryu and it's lineage. I have talked to a few respected historians and researchers and the lineage given by Takamatsu in 1930s has been suspect for sometime. I was told by one reseacher that some of the names were the same as characters from pulp fiction ninja novels of the period. Another researcher wrote me and said there is no documentation of Togakure Ryu pre Meiji. Can anyone help me clear this up?

I have been very uneasy about writing this because I do not want anyone to think that I have any disrespect for Masaaki Hatsumi or anyone in the Bujinkan. I am actually preparing for a trip to Japan at the end of the summer for two months of training.

My email is bcmoon2003@yahoo.com if anyone would prefer to write me there.

Christopher Moon

Kamiyama

5th March 2003, 09:38

This subject is really funny. My reasons for having such amusement with this subject is... it would be ninjutsu to make up such a wonderful story...kyojitsu tenkan ho... wouldn't you expect this anyway ?

Does it matter if Togakure ryuha is older than Takamatsu sensei or even Hatsumi sensei ?

In my opinion I could care less... Hatsumi sensei is all that's important to me.

kamiyama, ralph severe

El Guapo-san

5th March 2003, 10:56

Look, these questions come up time and again. If you want to have a look at things, see what the validity is, shouldn't bother anybody. I, for one, like reading the Kuki family website, which gives a bunch of the Takamatsu history with them. The emporer's living treasurer award kind of does it for me. Maybe I'm completely wrong, but I would imagine that those guys check everything out quite thoroughly.

Think of it this way, if you're a recognized expert at something and renowned for being a master at centuries' old arts, why should you legitimize yourself to everyone who comes along? If someone shows up from the emporer, though, and says "before we give you an award, do you mind if we trouble you to ask a few humble questions? ", it's going to be a different story. I mean, imagine the loss of face in Japan for the emporer if he's shown to have given a highly prestigious award to a fraud.

Further, go see about Genbukan and what historical stuff is there. It's more or less the same lineage. On the way, you may learn more about Japanese culture (firsthand is always best), which may help fill in the gaps.

J. Vlach, Amsterdam

Eric Baluja

5th March 2003, 11:19

Think of it this way, if you're a recognized expert at something and renowned for being a master at centuries' old arts, why should you legitimize yourself to everyone who comes along? Because if you're making claims to 34 generations /c. 900 years of history, in effect making yours the oldest ryu-ha of Japanese traditional martial arts ever, and ryu-ha as such didn't even come into existence until c. 500 years ago, you need to put up or shut up. If Takamatsu Sensei or Hatsumi Sensei is the orginator of these things, someone needs to step up and stop perpetuating what in some circles amounts to fraud. And people need to stop making apologies for the fraud. Hatsumi Sensei is certainly a charismatic teacher, but if the core of what he presents is inauthentic, it permeates and dirties the entire endeavor and everyone who engages in it, regardless of their best intentions.

The original question was specifically about Togakure-ryu, not Kukishin-ryu. Also, the award is very nice but does not even implicitly support the claims about Togakure-ryu. It's like letting Pete Rose into the Baseball Hall of Fame -- it doesn't legitimize his criminal activities.

Bradenn

5th March 2003, 12:54

Eric,
Aren't you in the Jinenkan? I read a nice article you wrote a while ago.
If the Togakure Ryu history is a fraud then doesn't that mean Manaka-sensei is teaching a fraudulent art?

Jeff O

5th March 2003, 13:03

Chris Moon,

A different way to look at it....

You may want to consider analyzing some of the historical Bujinkan lineages from the standpoint of kuden instead of koryu. A lot of the forms and kata of the Bujinkan date back in concept and strategy for many generations. These were word-of-mouth and family stories, passed down from family member to family member, or friend to friend, for years. Enter the 20th Century, and people began writing some of these ideas down.

History is usually recorded by the victors or a governing body of any state. It may be worth investigating what "other" history might exist, if even verbally. My grandfather was in WWII, and has told some interesting stories that were certainly not written down the way the military recorded them.

Native Americans have countless kuden that stretch back hundreds of years, perhaps thousands. The fact that just last century they began documenting on paper their generations, does this make them fraudulent? Or unable to prove they existed?

Certainly not all of the Bujinkan Ryu-ha are this way; the Kukishin & Takagi Ryu-ha's are well documented into the pre-Edo era. Look into the Gyokko Ryu, Koto Ryu, Togakure Ryu, Kumogakure Ryu, etc and you may end up finding that many of these ryu-ha were different groups or specialists who branched off their koshijutsu or koppojutsu family. In 2001, Hatsumi Sensei commented quite a bit about the Gyokushin movements being a branch of the Gyokko Ryu family.

Remember that a very large portion of Japan could not read or write before WWII.

Ask yourself this - how many generations of shoe-tying are there? Does this mean that no one knew how to tie a shoe before it was written down? Gosh, there must have been a lot of people tripping in the civil war.....

Enjoy looking into the history and every day life of Pre-Edo, Sengoku, and even the Muramachi Era of Japan. Study the methods people used to live their life, and I think you'll grasp the ideas of the Bujinkan's history with more fluidity.

There was a great article on E-budo from a few years ago by Sean Askew (Bujinkan Judan) explaining the ideas of the Bujinkan Ryu-ha as kuden, and not koryu. It would be well worth the read....

Good luck!

ChrisMoon

5th March 2003, 13:17

Hi,

Thank you for reply. That helps shed some light on things to a degree. I have gotten some hate mail to my yahoo account for my question. I think that is rather unfortunate. Anyhow, I don't want anyone to think that just because I am asking questions that I am writing off the Bujinkan or Hatsumi-sensei. If I had any doubts about his genius I would not be saving all my money on making the trip there. I would not have been trading letters with Ishizuka-sensei since 1987. Or would I have spent thousands of dollars collecting every videotape and book that Hatsumi-sensei has ever written.

Anyway back to your post. I will be looking into what you write and the kuden. I seriously hope I can find the answers that satisfies the historian in me. A historian at a Japanese University just floated a theory to me that would make sense about the lineage. I will keep digging and asking.

happy aloha wednesday

Bradenn

5th March 2003, 13:26

Originally posted by ChrisMoon
Hi,

I have gotten some hate mail to my yahoo account for my question. I think that is rather unfortunate.

Just ignore those people. They are bullies at heart. If they threaten or mock you it's a sign of their own insecurity.

Eric Baluja

5th March 2003, 17:41

Hi. I'm back, but not for long.

Originally posted by Bradenn
Eric, Aren't you in the Jinenkan? More or less. :)

If the Togakure Ryu history is a fraud then doesn't that mean Manaka-sensei is teaching a fraudulent art? I never said Togakure-ryu was a fraud. What I said was that, if it's not, which seems unlikely given all the scholarship and research that has gone into the subject of koryu, then someone needs to justify the claims of a 900-year, 34-generation history or (1) stop making those claims and (2) prevent one's acolytes from parroting those claims.

Eric Baluja

5th March 2003, 18:17

Originally posted by Jeff O
History is usually recorded by the victors or a governing body of any state.

...those who hold this view have a fantasy that there is this monolithic conspiracy of silence, and that all history is written by the "victors," patrons of samurai. In fact, outside the school system, which is controlled by the government, Japan has as free and revisionist a group of historians as america, if not more so.

Another fantasy is that Japanese, historians and otherwise, are enamoured of samurai and budo. An affection for martial arts, particularly old martial arts, is considered right wing, old-fashioned, and possibly fascist. Most Japanese would have no vested interest in maintaining a skewed view of bushi as "good guys." Although the ethos of many bushi is admired, as are doctrines or famous men, the japanese are far more realistic about their men-at-arms than most american budoka. For example, school books mention the 3000+ farmer's revolts against taxes and oppression in the Edo period, which were put down by samurai with guns, after the peasants often beat back the sword armed warriors with their hoes and picks. Ellis Amdur, Araki-ryu, Toda-ha Buko-ryu, from an e-budo discussion.

Native Americans have countless kuden that stretch back hundreds of years, perhaps thousands. The fact that just last century they began documenting on paper their generations, does this make them fraudulent? Or unable to prove they existed? There's no doubt that Hatsumi Sensei is Japanese. My point: This isn't a very good comparison, in my opinion.

Ask yourself this - how many generations of shoe-tying are there? Does this mean that no one knew how to tie a shoe before it was written down? Gosh, there must have been a lot of people tripping in the civil war..... Uh...you're kidding, right? 'Cause if you're not, now you’re really comparing apples to atom bombs!

Respectfully (believe it or not),

matthew18

5th March 2003, 22:14

hi all

well i was discussing this kinda subject the other day with a mate,
what if Takamatsu sensei & Hatsumi sensei got together in the 1960's and discussed a money making scheme using ninjutsu?. Since it is very interesting and little was known about it. Takamatsu maybe bought some scrolls from a family who didnt want them. (like u can today in modern japan for a price) and called it ninjutsu?

But even if this was true, WHO CARES! who cares if the lineages dont exsist. Just to see Hatsumi sensei in action does it for me, when u see him in action, it all becomes REAL. His techniques work, what more can be said.

But from a serious personal perspective, i do think the lineages are real.

just a thought

matthew morgan
Bujinkan Budo Taijutsu

Karyu

6th March 2003, 04:41

Togakure Ryu isn't the only school with such claims, there are many Koryu schools with lineages over 30 generations. Most ryu-ha weren't formalized until after 1600, that does not mean they didn't exist, as they were most certainly used before the Sengoku Jidai. With many schools, they began keeping track of lineage only after the warring states period but some, such as Togakure Ryu and Gyokko Ryu, trace their lineage all the way back to China. Gyokko Ryu is, in fact, recognized by many Koryu groups as having a legitimate lineage of over 28 generations.

And please read back a few posts, I think this question has been asked and answered a hundred times...

poryu

6th March 2003, 07:08

Hi

Karyu
What koryu groups recognise Gyokko Ryu. This is the first time i have heard this. As far as i was aware Hatsumi was no a member of any recognised Koryu groups/organisation. if this is correct then when and how did Gyokko Ryu get recognised. I would be very interested if you have more info please.

Matt Morgan
If Takamatsu and Hatsumi came up with a money making idea then it didnt really work then did it. (let me ocntinue). You see by the time Takamatsu died Hatsumi had around 20 studnets, and from what i here they all trained for free, not very profitable is it. The money making started when S.hayes started the Taikais going. Hatsumi saw the amount of money Hayes was making and decided that as he was doing all the teaching he should be paid. Too right he should.

so the money making started. Unfortunately this money making has blow way out of proportion and every man and his dog seems to thing he has the right now in the bujinkan to over charge for events so he can make a pretty packet for his japan trips.

The Togakure Ryu can not 100% prove its lineage prior to Takamatsu. We have Hatsumi/Takamatsu's word that Toda existed and that he passed the Ryu to Takamatsu. Not one person in the X-Kana - includingt he heads of the oganisations can find or provide absolute evidence that Toda did in fact live and that he wa sa part of Togakure Ryu.

I have also heard this claim by many researchers that Soke names have appeared in Manga comics. Who says they didnt take them from the comics, or from the scrolls in to the comics. Have any of these people provided the names of the manga or the actual manga themselves to back up these claims.

I once had an instructor write to me asking if I could track a family name int he Togakure Ryu. It seemed one of his students was Jap[anese had the identical name to one of the Togakure Ryu soke. i couldnt, but would this mean this guy was family or wa she realy the same man - now 450 years old (ooooh Ninja magic)

I have walked down the street with my daughter she was holding hands with me and my friend. he is also called Paul Richardson. Just because she was holding hands with 2 Paul Richardson's at the same time (scary thought) does this mean this guy is her father just because he shares the same name as me.

unfortunately we have to accept that prior to Takamatsu we may be will NEVER find absolute fact about the origin of Togakure Ryu. many Ryu ha are loaded with Folk law and we have to accept that this ryu is maybe one of them.

Also take into consideration that many people have repeatedly commented that prior to Toda/Takamatsu this Ryu wa skuden - why? as previously stated people couldnt read or write, so they passed info by word of mouth.

A great example of this is the Daito Ryu Aikijujuts. Sokukaku Takeda culdnt not read or write. Many of his students had to write there own menkyo (even Menkyo Kaiden) does this make these menkyo fake - No

If your researching the history good luck to you. I gave up on this Ryu a long time ago

Karyu

6th March 2003, 07:31

Originally posted by poryu
Hi

Karyu
What koryu groups recognise Gyokko Ryu. This is the first time i have heard this. As far as i was aware Hatsumi was no a member of any recognised Koryu groups/organisation. if this is correct then when and how did Gyokko Ryu get recognised. I would be very interested if you have more info please.

There used to be a wonderful article by Duncan Mitchell on Kutaki.org regarding this issue. From what I remember it mentioned Gyokko Ryu, Koto Ryu, and (I think) Takagi-Yoshin Ryu being recognized by some Japanese organizations (one I think was Zen Nihon Renmei) as koryu. I can't find the article, so I don't know the specifics of how or why they were recognized.

Don Roley

6th March 2003, 07:50

Originally posted by ChrisMoon
I was told by one reseacher that some of the names were the same as characters from pulp fiction ninja novels of the period.

Which ones? The thing is, some of the people in the lineages of the Togakure ryu were historically verifiable, but they also were used in a lot of stories as well. If you think of Daniel Boone, you get the general idea. There is probably more people aware of them through comics, movies and other forms of fiction than real history works.

Also, be wary of many "reserchers." I know a few people on the net who try to portray themselves as such, but are trying to push their own form of "ninjutsu" and can't even read Japanese. Since they can't show that their art ever existed in Japan, they try to divert attention by pointing to the fact that the Togakure ryu can't provide notarized copies of their records in the 12th century to make it sound like they are just as legitimate. :rolleyes:

Also, there are several good martial arts historians out there, but so far no one that I have encountered has really done a lot of research on the matter from a historical viewpoint on the ninja. In Japan, there are some folks like Koyama Ryutaro (an independent historian who interviewed Takamatsu and published a few works on ninjutsu in general) but most of the folks on line who talk about the Togakure ryu generally have never looked at ninjutsu history, and look at things based on what they have heard or read without knowledge of the (IMO) needed background history. I have talked about Koyama's amazing discoveries on his own backing up the claims by Takamatsu, but no one seems interested in looking at the sources I site. They have their own lives and things to do. I can sympathize with the fact that they do not want to do any real research in another art anymore than I want to look into the history of karate.

When you look at the history of the Koga and Iga regions, and the schools that come out of them, you find some things are fairly common. For one thing, they exaggerate their lineages. I am talking about some real large fibs here. Some schools claim to come from Chinese emporers that were known to the Japanese, or Sun Tzu, Japanese heros and the like. As such, I would say that the claims of schools like the Gyokko ryu are typical of other tradtions that go back to the Iga area, but there is no way in hell I would take it at face value.

Also, there is a saying that, roughly translated, says, "When the boss says a crow is white, you comment how white it is." There are some points in the Togakure ryu history that any school child since the Meiji era know is not true. I made a polite enquiry at the right time about it to my Japanese teacher. He responded (again roughly translated) "It is not Hatsumi's job to correct Takamatsu, nor ours to correct Hatsumi" There is no way Takamatsu would not have known these things were contrary to commonly known facts, but if he was told it by his teacher, he would have passed it along as is with no modification. And you know just how unreliable word of mouth can be. Mistakes are to be expected, but later sokes would not dare consiously changing them to their more correct version. In Japanese books by Hatsumi, the sections that are really, really wrong usually have some sort of qualifiers that a Japanese would pick up on, such as "according to the stories in the densho," but usually these get ignored in the translations of enthusiastic but not really competent Bujinkan students and they are treated as fact.

To kind of try to make this short, I think that Koyama Ryutaro and others make a good case for believing that the Togakure ryu existed in some form for several hundred years, but in what form I am not willing to even hazard a guess. The people who treat the kuden as fact make me laugh, but I can understand why they do so.

I have to kind of go with Ralph on this point. Even if an art is hundreds of years old does not mean that it is good, nor does a art's newness mean that it is not good. A lot of people seem to want to rely on a 800 year old security blanket. Hatsumi did not show up to train with Takamatsu because he wnated an ancient tradition. He did so because his previous experiences with sport style budo convinced him he could never overcome a weight and strength advantage by menas of training. So when Takamatsu (70 years old and thin as a rake) tossed his 20- something ass across the park without breathing hard he knew he had found the art to study. We should all be less concerned with whether Momochi Sandayu really did as well against his enemies in the 16th century, and more concerned with whether the training we get will help us to survive against our enemies. Nagase dojo has had several students run into trouble, and these students have used me to thank Nagase for teaching them what they say helped them survive.

So if you want an assured ancient tradition, don't look here. Teh Bujinkan is about learning to survive to old age. We try to learn from history, not keep it like an ant in amber.

poryu

6th March 2003, 08:10

Hi

Karyu
thanks for the reply :beer:

Don
Outstanding (as always) :nw:

ChrisMoon

6th March 2003, 08:23

Hi Don

That was the best reply I have gotten to my query so far. Not to denigrate the other replies I gotten (except for threat of a butt kicking I got this morning). You have left me with something to think about. I feel like I have some material to go with to my koryu class this Friday.

mahalo nui loa

poryu

6th March 2003, 08:45

Hi Chris

if your getting abusive and threatening emails form people just because you asked a BRILLIANT question.

would you mind posting there names and email shere so that we can all shame them for there outrageous behaviour.

Any one who is sending Chris abusive emails because he asked a question - your nothing more than a child and should be treated like one. If your Bujinkan or X-Kan then we dont want you, resign and dont come back until you have grown up.

Chris I liked your question and it have generated some excellent answers. This thread has been one fo the best for a while and every one here has posted good comments and behaved excellent - a beer for them all (only if you come all the way to lincoln UK) :toast:

matthew18

6th March 2003, 15:38

hi

cheers paul for that, very interesting topic though. Maybe we can contine talking about it at dave pawson's seminar.
u got some good stuff to share at the seminar?

That was the best reply I have gotten to my query so far. Not to denigrate the other replies I gotten (except for threat of a butt kicking I got this morning). You have left me with something to think about. I feel like I have some material to go with to my koryu class this Friday.

mahalo nui loa

No problem. I get so that I want to strangle the guys who treat the kuden as if it were notarized fact, but really, really want to jump up and down on the guys who basically showed up after SKH made the art as popular as it is and can show no proff to their training and try to differ attention away from them by using that Koryu.com article.

There are so many agenda trolls on the internet that you should not be surprised if some people jump the gun and attack you for asking your honest questions. Almost all the frauds start out by asking almost the same question in the same sort of tone. Just be carefull about who and how you ask. Some people's nerves are pretty raw after all the attacks by "koga-ryu" folks and the like.