West Point chapel hosted its first lesbian wedding today. Lesbian activist Brenda Sue Fulton married her partner even though they had to bring in a clergyman from elsewhere to perform the ceremony. Brenda graduated from the academy in 1980, the first class that included women, and shortly afterward founded an organization called KnightsOut, which describes itself as “an organization of West Point Alumni, Staff and Faculty who are united in supporting the rights of Lesbian, Gay, Bisexual and Transgender soldiers to openly serve their country.” So there was no political agenda involved in this, just a love match.

I read about this wedding this morning. I generally couldn’t care less about gay marriage but one of the participants went to West Point during a time where an applicant had to assert his or her heterosexuality. She lied. So much for duty, honor, country. By getting married there she is flipping off the long gray line.

Doubtful, it clearly states that shortly after graduating, she founded KnightsOut. I find it highly unlikely that she didn’t know beforehand, but more likely she purposely lied and graduated to make an issue of this.

No! If they said there was no political agenda, then there was absolutely no political agenda. The left never politicized anything, nor do they lie. You all are just raaaaacist, or homophoooooobic…. ;P

Whereas: “The word “marriage” derives from Middle English mariage, which first appears in 1250–1300 CE This in turn is derived from Old French marier (to marry) and ultimately Latin marītāre meaning to provide with a husband or wife…”
Therefore: Your use of the word is incorrect.
Furthermore: The sexual perverts who utilize this word are doing so in a vain attempt to legitimize their abomination.

Interesting. On the radio show I co-host, there’s another regular who started coming into the studio after I left Reno. I didn’t realize he was gay until this past Saturday when the subject of California’s new law against conversion therapy came up. He was adament that conversion therapy is wrong. I tried to be delicate about my dissension, pointing out that some children are simply confused and the therapy might be valuable to them, but I wish I’d had your link to give me an example of the fact that conversion is possible.

It seems like in every lesbian picture I’ve seen, at least one of the women is obese and one or maybe both have short butch haircuts which seems to point to gender confusion. They try to make it seem healthy and normal, but the participants often don’t look healthy or normal. Too many gay males I’ve seen over the years look sickly thin, whether or not they have HIV/AIDS. I guess I’m saying that nature often gives a witness, even if people deny nature.

The vast majority of lesbians are lesbians because of abuse by a man. Of course, this fact is rapidly disappearing from literature as pop culture attempts to “normalize” the whole concept. But the data is out there. Sure, there are SOME who were just tomboys, who maybe have some faulty wiring, and they are the really “butch” ones, but the whole “born that way” stuff is BS, in my opinion. That said – who CARES? sleep with whomever you want to. Just don’t ask me to legitimize it.

I don’t even care if they want to get “married” per se. Except it is step one to creating a protected class of people who will get special benefits for a situation that they have a choice about. Sex is always a choice, by the way. One may not be able to choose who they are attracted to, but they can always choose to be abstinent.

You will note that most of these are older studies. The newer, more PC research “can’t find the connection”, but the studies are skewed. That’s what I was saying in my initial post. The “women’s studies” grad students these days don’t want anything possibly getting in the way of the “born that way” theory.

you specifically said “the vast majority…” so i thought perhaps you had some type of study that showed that, either back in the day, or now.

btw, your first 2 references the first was only 1/3 of 1001 polled, and those were males, the second was way smaller percentage. so where VAST comes into it, (and oh yeah that was for male homosexuals) i got tired of trying to wade through all the so called scientific analysis, which, to me is superfluous since it’s ones’ personal choice/choices that lead them to turn from the truth, and no amount of rationalizing changes the fact that people who behave in “that way” are acting abominably.

“Lesbians are more likely to feel they have a free choice because lesbians are physically able to have sex with a man. Many discover their lesbianism in the context of a failed marriage or troubled heterosexual relationship. The decision to concentrate on lesbian relationships may be a conscious one, made at a certain time, as a free choice” and “only 20% (of lesbian women) viewed lesbianism as an innately determined orientation (Knox, 1984)

That’s it. I have proven that what I said was based on research. Feel free to believe it or not, but I stand by my comment. Have a nice day.

How sad that so may modern mental health professionals seem to think everything is normal nature and not a symptom of warped nurturing. Some patients have complained that they want counseling for some type of abuse but all they get is medication. Don’t get me wrong. Medication can be helpful and at times is even needed. But don’t the underlying, underpinning foundational issues need to be looked at and treated at some point? Not every mental health problem is chemically caused.

Karmaa:”The vast majority of lesbians are lesbians because of abuse by a man.”

Ellen DeGeneres admitted to being molested by her stepfather at about 17 while her mother was undergoing treatment for breast cancer. I think she also said something about her mother being emotionally unexpressive when Ellen was little. Rosie O’Donnell admits to being sexually abused but won’t say who did it. Her brother Daniel is gay. Years ago, Diane Sawyer said to O’Donnell that there are people who think she’s gay because of sexual abuse, but O’Donnell denied it.

Many girls who were sexually abused become promiscuous as teenagers with MEN. Others become afraid of, or have hatred towards men, and turn to women.

And some do neither. I understand those are the facts; I’m trying to understand the exceptions. What leads them to a different choice than “most”? What is it in their psyche that makes them different? How is it that they have gone the same truama yet it doesn’t fracture their minds, so to speak.

Family support, counseling, or just plain inner strength.
Some people are natural born victims, others are leaders, others are exceptionally strong.
There is no way to determine one specific means of coping, everyone does it differently, but with the proper help, understanding, and support, anyone can get through such trials. It’s all a matter of desire.

Drb, there is also this thing that psychologists call “natural resilience”, and no one understands it. But it is a documentable thing. Resilience itself can be taught and strengthened (Poppa gave some good ways), but for some unknown reason some children develop it on their own. If you ever go to a “survivors” message board, you can see stories from adults who tell the most unbelievable situations that they were exposed to as children. Some will make me actually sit and cry. Some of the survivors lucked out and met someone, maybe a relative or a teacher who showed them how to survive and thrive, but others only had themselves, and they got out of their hellhole somehow, despite all odds.

I am going to link 2 things here – one is to the American Psychological Assoc guide to resilience – it’s very interesting: http://www.apa.org/helpcenter/resilience.aspx I did some deep research on this subject for a class a few years ago, and this is a great site to get some basic understanding.

The other link is to the organization that I volunteer with – called CASA. (I know I have plugged it before, but it is so worthwhile!!) I try to be someone who can help teach resilience to “damaged” kids, and it is absolutely amazing how just a little love and attention can transform a kid. I have watched it happen! http://www.casaforchildren.org/site/c.mtJSJ7MPIsE/b.5301295/k.BE9A/Home.htm

Drb is right too. But only insofar as stranger abuse is concerned, and it applies to boys as well. Familial abuse occurs regardless of the behavior of the victim (although there are a lot of factors that co-mingle to create the situation – for example, an abused mother may teach her children to be passive). But as far as stranger abuse goes, strong, assertive children are much less likely to be victims because they are more likely to have a strong support network.

Poppa – between us, a psychology degree is just window dressing. Some people instinctively understand other people. Some people never will, no matter how much education they get. I think you are in the first group

This is on the front page of MSN.com and I have seen it all over. Two unattractive old women marrying each other is news now? I mean, if Ellen married Sarah Silverman and her dog, then, yeah, maybe that would be newsworthy. But this? I just don’t get it.

Been in the military 22 years – chapels are chapels – they don’t reflect the military. In fact, chaplains have to learn all religions and have been called to do services (weddings/funerals) in the on-base chapel – even Satanism.
Military chapels are federal funded chapels – they can’t refuse certain things like private churches can.

I went to a gay friend’s birthday party last night. There were penis balloons all over the room, sex toys hanging from the ceiling, posters of nude men on the walls…

WTH? When I have a birthday party, I don’t have vagina decorations all over. In fact, my sexual preference never even enters the conversation. Is gay sex ALL they think about day and night? Is their homosexuality ALL they are?

Bingo! It is what makes them “special”, and they cling to it like a teddy bear. Their persona and their entire culture becomes linked to this “special” part of them. The more outrageous they are, the more attention they get, and this is validating.

There are so many “quietly gay” people in this world who don’t do that. Who are just “normal” in how they view their sexuality. They dress like everyone else, they go about their business like everyone else, and no one would “guess” that they are gay. Of course, it’s OFFENSIVE of me to say that, because it implies that gay is abnormal (which it IS!!), but it’s the truth. That doesn’t mean that shunning them for being different is OK. It means that they are different. Get over it.

To me, it’s offensive for people to talk about their bedroom habits. I mean, sure – in a small group of friends we might compare notes and stuff. We are open-minded and not Victorian – but we don’t discuss personal things about our sex life with every person we meet. And my group of friends includes several gays and lesbians.

I don’t understand the mindset of the outrageous and flamboyant gays. I have several gay friends, in a couple of different age groups.
The older they are, the more likely they are to simply live a quiet life with their partner. Perhaps it is because they kept their life to themselves because of social mores’ when they were growing up.
However, there are a significant number of relatively younger gays that aren’t out there, in your face, and simply are happy to live an otherwise uneventful life.
Radical demonstration, and extreme sexual activity only hurt your cause. People would likely be more accepting of you if you didn’t try to have sex with everything that moves, or make yourself up to look like a perverted clown.

Gay man: “We just want the same rights you have.”
Me: “You have the same rights I have. You can marry a woman just like I can. Your sex habits have nothing to do with what’s good for society.”
Gay man: “That’s not fair. It’s about way more than sex. We don’t get marital benefits like social security and health insurance for our partners.”
Me: “Are you saying I should be able to put a roommate on my health insurance?”
Gay man: “Only if he’s your life partner.”
Me: “In other words, only if I’m having sex with him. Didn’t you just say this is about more than sex?”

Don’t even try to explain that marital tax benefits were put in place to protect CHILDREN. You will get 1000 equally dopey replies. (what about single parents??? what about people who get married but don’t/can’t have children?? ) The fact is that most (tax) benefits were put in place because MOST people followed a track of marrying and having children. Certainly SOME people got benefits without having the kids, but the majority followed the “path” and it was good for society to protect the children, and the surviving parent should a parent die.

I know that some gay people decide to have children by whatever strange method they choose. But the fact is, they still get legal benefits for the child, just as single parents do. So, it’s still “fair”.

All other “benefits” of marriage can be handled by contract – things like being able to make medical decisions for the partner, and all the other crap that they bring up when the issue is being raised. After all, when you get right down to it, from the government’s perspective, a marriage is nothing BUT a legal contract.

There is ONLY one reason that gays are pushing so hard for marriage. That is to legitimize gayness – in a first step towards pushing for becoming a protected class. As soon as that happens, gays will be worse than minorities in demanding MORE than their “fair share”.

RKae:”Is gay sex ALL they think about day and night? Is homosexuality ALL they are?”

Coming back on a flight from New York in 1994, there was a young man seated next to me on my left who had a stack of homosexual newspapers. He kept going through them for hours. I remember thinking at one point:”It seems to be all he thinks about.”

I think homosexuality is actually more of a compulsion than a sexual preference. Sort of like people who wash their hands 4,000 times a day… sort of the OPPOSITE of washing your hands, come to think of it.

not really. I have two gay in-laws. I joke about something on their side of the family. One of them is chronically irritated with Obama and voted for both McCain and Romney. My wife was pretty bi-curious as young lady. So was my ex before her and i got to catch a couple glimpses of that. That is an immortal memory.

They don’t sit around thinking about gay sex all the time. They are just people. They may be just a sliver of the electorate, but every insult hits their loved ones too, and their ranks swell every year.

Not to minimize the feelings of your in-laws but I find my sensibilities assaulted by the current political and social atmosphere everyday. Just came across a story about some administrator of a college in Ohio who is offended by a men working sign. The language, “men working” was an affront to him. That kind of PC insanity is offensive to me so is the entitlement culture and the mainstreaming of all sorts of deviant behaviors including homosexuality. I tolerate all of it but I accept very little of it. Point is, I’m not terribly worried about the feelings of any of the people who flaunt the kinds of behaviors that should be kept private. No one on the left gives a damn about how I feel about any of the issues that I care about. I’m just labeled a racist/homophobe/snob/white/angry/out of touch/insensitive Bible clinging rube.

That kind of PC insanity is offensive to me so is the entitlement culture and the mainstreaming of all sorts of deviant behaviors including homosexuality. I accept very little of it. Point is, I’m not terribly worried about the feelings of any of the people who flaunt the kinds of behaviors that should be kept private. No one on the left gives a damn about how I feel about any of the issues that I care about. I’m just labeled a racist/homophobe/snob/white/angry/out of touch/insensitive Bible clinging rube.

I’m not so concerned about feelings as I am their votes, hence the electorate context. I could’ve been more clear there. I also operate from the underlying contention that it’s not deviant behaviour, so we’d disagree there, but I’m hardly alone, and again, those who think similarly grow in numbers every year. It’s another demographic reality the GOP must contend with. We need Big Tent GOP, or the dems will own the WH and Senate for decades

Just to clarify, I used the word “deviant” as a statistical expression not some psychological dispersion. With regard to votes, if the GOP would get their messaging straight and articulate what conservatism really is both from an economic as well as social perspective the votes will come. Unfortunately the GOP leadership does not believe it any more than the liberals do. They pay lip service to those principles but they couldn’t care less so long as they amass political power. We are rapidly heading back to the bad old days of most the 20th century when the Dems had overwhelming majorities and for the same reason….the promise of an endless supply of free shit.

the GOP needs to quit trying to be moderate and instead return to conservatism, imo, as their method of operation, otherwise we’ll be unjustly ruled by a single class, regardless of the label they wanna stick on themselves. If the trend continues as it has, then only the real Americans, and I mean this in the patriotic sense of a nation that believes in God, will employ a much more direct means of expressing ire at the moral ambivalence of the leaders.

OK Alien, you are correct about the fact that not all gay men and women think about sex all the time, however, we are constantly treated to the group of gays that are overly promiscuous, and overt. That is what we object to, just as we object to the debauchery of Spring Break, Jersey Shore, and similar activity from straight people. It’s the fault of the media who are always looking for the sensational to report instead of the sensible.
Still, it does exist, so to relate your personal experience without acknowleging what is obviously out there in the media, is a bit disingenuous.

i don’t know what’s disingenuous about reflecting on those that i know quite deeply. I also don’t consume garbage like Jersey Shore, Spring Break (MTV or whatever).. I don’t know what media exists out there with the capability of shoving something in my face against my will. Where is this happening to you?

I mentioned once i saw 2 guys kiss in Boulder, while we were out here scouting for a place to live. I also saw a hippy girl with hairy legs. Both gave me an EWWww moment and i got over it. Beyond that, i just the sense that its a lot more In Everyone’s Face then mine.. Either the very notion of it offends me less, or i’m better at avoiding..?

RKae if I can stomach you talking about hanging out with homosexual friends at penis parties you can learn to recognize a joke.

I also am a social conservative with a healthy sense of humor:
Social conservatism is a political ideology that focuses on the preservation of what are seen as traditional values. The accepted goals and ideologies related to preserving traditions and morality often varies from group to group within social conservatism. Thus, there are really no policies or positions that could be considered universal among social conservatives. There are however a number of general principles to which at least a majority of social conservatives adhere, such as support for puritanical morality and traditional family values, often based on a specific understanding of Abrahamist values, and opposition to sexual permissiveness.
As an application of these general principles, social conservatives in many countries generally: favor the pro-life position in opposing euthanasia, embryonic stem cell research, and abortion; oppose both eugenics (inheritable genetic modification) and human enhancement (transhumanism), while supporting bioconservatism[citation needed][not in citation given];[1] support public morality, abstinence-only education, school prayers, gun ownership, capital punishment, and define marriage as the union of one man and one woman, thus opposing same-sex marriage (some may even support a constitutional ban on gay marriage); disapprove of affirmative action; support the continued prohibition of recreational or medically non-beneficial drugs; oppose prostitution and brothels, polygamy, divorce, civil unions, gay adoption, same-sex parenting, federal funding for birth control, premarital sex, sodomy, incest, and non-marital sex; advocate traditional gender roles; and object to pornography and what they consider to be indecency and promiscuity.[citation needed] Some may also oppose the teaching of evolution in public schools, preferring creationism and/or intelligent design.

Once, a long long time ago, I was dating a very beautiful young lady. I had heard the story about looking at a girl’s mother to see what she would look like later. I met this girl’s mother, and I’ve seen sexier roadkill. I got scared. Then I met her grandmother. She was HOT! So I just figured it skipped a generation.

I remember dating a slim little beauty in college whose mother was grotesquely obese. To the point where she could barely walk she was so heavy.

I could not reconcile the future I saw for myself with the possibility that she would become her mother. Call me shallow, call me callous, but years later I saw the slim beauty and she was well on her way to becoming her mother.

OK, to be fair, it works for men too.
That said, I must admit that my MIL is starting to scare the hell out of me. She’s not easy to live with and my wife is following in her footsteps, my SIL is also on the crazy train. I’m seriously considering an exit strategy.

Yeah, craziness runs genetically, too. I learned that the hard way. I actually said this to myself at my first wedding many many years ago: “Okay, her siblings are bat crazy and her father is a loony tune but the girl I’m marrying seems to be normal.” What was I thinking?

The first time I met my in-laws was the wedding. I thought I’d fallen through the looking glass. I saw my soon-to-be-father-in-law’s naked butt before I shook his hand because he was skinny dipping in a pond behind his house. What do you do when you’re meeting your fiancee’s father for the first time and he comes at you naked? The second time I met them they all got mad at me for buying my new wife Christmas presents. They told me it was gauche and were disgusted that I had commercialized the birth of Christ. After that, things got much worse.

I know what you are saying…my baby girl is the 5th generation in a row with the same face…(I was jokingly accussed of “cloning” when she was born) so anyway we know how she is going to look right up to age 92!

Well, my daughter looks a bit like me, but some things skipped a generation. I am just under 6 feet tall, and my daughter is 5’5″ – like my mother and her mother. And my grandmother on the other side was about the same height too. I figure we must have had a very tall milkman somewhere along the line. I am a mutant!

Yeah, my baby girl isn’t going to be as tall as I am either…she isn’t too happy about that. She is 5 foot nothing, all of 90 lbs. and the boys at school pick her up and toss her back and forth, shouting “catch the little birdie” which irritates her. I get a “grrrrrrrr” when I tell her they do it cuz she’s so tiny and cute.