Another addition since the splitting up of Peopling of Europe into separate pages is to the discussion of the Iberians. I'm talking here not about all the inhabitants of Iberia, but about the specific tribe known to the Ancient Greeks and Romans as the Iberes.

Their long dead language, which remains largely undeciphered, is not Indo-European. In recent decades linguists have uncovered similarities with Aquitainian, the Iron Age precursor of the language spoken by Basques today. Even if we argue that these similarities were the result of linguistic borrowing, rather than a common ancestor, the two would need to be in contact for borrowing to take place. Aquitanian was spoken in what is now South-West France. By the time inscriptions crop up in Iberian c. 400 BC, they were all along the south-eastern coast of Iberia. But Javier Veleza points out that if they had been there for very long, the language would have broken up into dialects. So he suggests that Iberian had spread not all that long before 400 BC from a homeland in North Catalonia bordering Aquitania.[1]

Interestingly the distribution of R1b-SRY2627 seems to follow that path. It is rare everywhere except the central and eastern Pyrenees. It runs at about 2-7% across Iberia. So it was astonishing to find 48% in Valle de Aran, Catalonia. Such a density probably means that the origin point was nearby.[2]

I think that what Mikewww says on your blog is interesting. These subclades (both R-L21 and R-M167) were born on Western Europe from R-P312 and that they lack in Italy (we have some R-L167 in Liguria) demonstrates that they arose after that R-P312 from Italy, or anyway from East of Western Europe, migrated there. To link this subclade to a people or a language is perhaps too early. Anyway it could be that from Italy migrated an ancient form of Indo-European that could be linked to Iberian and other Hispanic languages that I found in the toponyms like Corduba from IE *Ghort- like in Etruscan Curtun (Cortona) etc., late Indo-European: Latin ”hortus”, English “Garden” etc.

I do not agree that it follows that because SRY2627 has such a high frequency in Valle de Aran that its origin must be nearby.

I do think it is possible and I don't know the original expansion location for SRY2627. I do have some genetic evidence that indicates an expansion point not at Valle de Aran or adjacent to it.

There is a mutation, L176.2, that appears to be consistent and may be instructive. So far, depending on how you count it, 14 of 14 or 15 of 15 SRY2627+ folks who have tested for L176.2 have been derived or L176.2+.

Through WTY, we know U152 and L21 are ancestral or L176.2-. However, within R-P312*, L176.2+ has been found. The three R-L176.2* guys are from England, Ireland and Germany.

In addition, L165+ (aka S68) people are L176.2+, I know of ten of those folks and they are from Scotland, England and Sweden. The majority of this group, the Scots, believe their family surnames and folklore are of Scandinavian descent. Ethnoancestry agrees. http://www.ethnoancestry.com/S68.html

The net is SRY2627 has at least two immediate peer subclades in Central and Northern Europe.

Another factor is variance, but it is not giving a clear answer. When I calculate for the 50 (of 67) non-multi-copy markers, the variance is a little higher for Germany and France as compared to Spain and Portugal.

Besides France and Germany (and Iberia of course), we also have SRY2627 people in Belgium, Poland, Switzerland and Czech Republic.

The genetic evidence is not conclusive one way or another, but I think we have to consider an expansion to the Pyrenees for SY2627, as well than from the Pyrenees.

SRY2627 TMRCA appears to be about 15 to 20% less than L21's or U152's. Are there migrations from the Pyrenees in the correct timeframe, back towards Central and Northern Europe?

Gort does indeed mean field in Gealge ( pac is used more commonly now) and thanks to Eochaidh I was able to pin down the exact place of a Family going back at least a couple of hundred years possibaly to the Flight of the Earls or maybe even earlier.

I recently did another search through FTDNA projects and downloaded P312 data.

One of the problems we have with SRY2627 folks in our projects is there are very few people from the Pyrenees, particularly Catalonia, which is a frequency hot spot for SRY2627. To remedy that I added about the SRY2627 ht's from the Adams and Lopez-Parra studies in 2008 of Iberia.

That limited things to just 8 common non-multicopy STR's, but here are the sum of the variance numbers:

Are the Iberes thought to have settled directly onto eastern Spain via the sea, or are they thought to be descended from the spread of a people from further inland? It seems there is contradictory info here if there is some relationship.

Also, with the discovery of additional SNPs, it looks like modern Iberians (, not necessarily the Iberian culture) were populated predominantly - from the male side at least, via a population north of the Pyrenees.

Having looked further into the evidence, it seems that the Iberes were first noticed in the South-East of Iberia and there is no reason to think their homeland was in Catalonia. Hecataeus of Miletus encountered the Iberes c. 500 BC in the Contestania. They seem to have spread along the coast from there later. By 420 BC the Iberes were envisaged along the whole Mediterranean coast of what is now Spain and had spread into southern France, mingling with Ligurians as far as the Rhone.

So now where do I find my ancestry? It seems like 9.4% is pretty low for Britain and Ireland but its the highest percentage. France and Germany drops significantly to 0.6%, while Scandinavia is 1.4%. So much for going south to France or Catalonia, where are the SRY2627 people seem to be. This only leaves me Belgium, Holland, and Luxembourg as candidates (they are also not listed). Also, presuming that Belgium and Luxembourg would be in that French and German category as well Holland in the Germany category I wonder if they are a part of the French-German estimation. Then it only leaves me Switzerland and Austria. Italy, Spain, Andorra, Monaco, San Marino and Portugal are out of the question since its considered southern Europe and I only have 3.1%, albeit it is higher than Scandinavian and back south I go (but to where?). My Eastern European composition overall is 6.8% and so there's a big jump to Poland, Czech Republic and Slovakia, perhaps Romania but the percentages dwindle to 1.6% for the Balkans. So Greece, Bulgaria, Albania, etc are out of the question. So I would guess Austria, Hungary, or Switzerland would be more in line of my origins? I'm not sure how to interpret the percentages.

And I sincerely hope they don't have too much to do with The Other Iberians known to classical Greece and Rome, or I shall go quite mad.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Caucasian_IberiaHere they are on a map. Next to The Other Albania (not to be confused the British and Latin Albas :P).Slap in the middle of the Mother of Incomprehensible Languages. And metalworking. And possibly even chariots, bagpipes and wool tartan, and other good things. Just north of the highland Anatolian zone of cist-burial which spread somehow to western Anatolia, which as we all know fairly seethes with R1b diversity. Just along the coast from early coppermining near Tarsus, (sneaky edit: I meant tin, at Kestel/Göltepe), and the La Bastida de Totana-type walls of, for example, Byblos, and possibly the SE quadrant of the acropolis of Troy II(like this)

Could somebody cleverer than me kill the monster which is beginning to haunt my dreams, and tell me straight up that the possibility does not exist? Please .. <uncorks bottle of single malt, throws away cork, and lights Capstan Full-Strength>

So now where do I find my ancestry? It seems like 9.4% is pretty low for Britain and Ireland but its the highest percentage. France and Germany drops significantly to 0.6%, while Scandinavia is 1.4%. So much for going south to France or Catalonia, where are the SRY2627 people seem to be. This only leaves me Belgium, Holland, and Luxembourg as candidates (they are also not listed). Also, presuming that Belgium and Luxembourg would be in that French and German category as well Holland in the Germany category I wonder if they are a part of the French-German estimation. Then it only leaves me Switzerland and Austria. Italy, Spain, Andorra, Monaco, San Marino and Portugal are out of the question since its considered southern Europe and I only have 3.1%, albeit it is higher than Scandinavian and back south I go (but to where?). My Eastern European composition overall is 6.8% and so there's a big jump to Poland, Czech Republic and Slovakia, perhaps Romania but the percentages dwindle to 1.6% for the Balkans. So Greece, Bulgaria, Albania, etc are out of the question. So I would guess Austria, Hungary, or Switzerland would be more in line of my origins? I'm not sure how to interpret the percentages.

Arch

My "cousin" with whom I share the same y-line descendancy is strikingly similar to your composition. Though his is British/Irish is a tad higher at around 16 percent. I too am at a loss with regards to continental origins.

My Y-line, which I thought I had finally pinned down, has changed once again! I was working with a theory that we were of possible Saxon descent by way of Kent. That ended up falling through. However, where one door closed another one opened.

I traced it back even further to Winkleigh, Devon and have finally made a legit connection to the homeland.. aka Devon. I've been researching mid to north-devon which is the quote, unquote Isaac family homeland.. and it seems the further back I trace it, the further North I end up..

Currently the two major areas of high frequency for my surname are North Devon and South Wales. SO, I'm beginning to look at the possibility of an Ultimately Welsh origin for my y-line.

And I sincerely hope they don't have too much to do with The Other Iberians known to classical Greece and Rome, or I shall go quite mad.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Caucasian_IberiaHere they are on a map. Next to The Other Albania (not to be confused the British and Latin Albas :P).Slap in the middle of the Mother of Incomprehensible Languages. And metalworking. And possibly even chariots, bagpipes and wool tartan, and other good things. Just north of the highland Anatolian zone of cist-burial which spread somehow to western Anatolia, which as we all know fairly seethes with R1b diversity. Just along the coast from early coppermining near Tarsus, (sneaky edit: I meant tin, at Kestel/Göltepe), and the La Bastida de Totana-type walls of, for example, Byblos, and possibly the SE quadrant of the acropolis of Troy II(like this)

Could somebody cleverer than me kill the monster which is beginning to haunt my dreams, and tell me straight up that the possibility does not exist? Please .. <uncorks bottle of single malt, throws away cork, and lights Capstan Full-Strength>

In fact, it says nothing about whether Gog descended from Magog, but simply that Gog reigns in an area inhabited by descendants of Magog. Or an area where they have been living. North of Israel, so it must be the European continent. I think, however, that our Lord before this have warned the dignified.

So now where do I find my ancestry? It seems like 9.4% is pretty low for Britain and Ireland but its the highest percentage. France and Germany drops significantly to 0.6%, while Scandinavia is 1.4%. So much for going south to France or Catalonia, where are the SRY2627 people seem to be. This only leaves me Belgium, Holland, and Luxembourg as candidates (they are also not listed). Also, presuming that Belgium and Luxembourg would be in that French and German category as well Holland in the Germany category I wonder if they are a part of the French-German estimation. Then it only leaves me Switzerland and Austria. Italy, Spain, Andorra, Monaco, San Marino and Portugal are out of the question since its considered southern Europe and I only have 3.1%, albeit it is higher than Scandinavian and back south I go (but to where?). My Eastern European composition overall is 6.8% and so there's a big jump to Poland, Czech Republic and Slovakia, perhaps Romania but the percentages dwindle to 1.6% for the Balkans. So Greece, Bulgaria, Albania, etc are out of the question. So I would guess Austria, Hungary, or Switzerland would be more in line of my origins? I'm not sure how to interpret the percentages.

Arch

My "cousin" with whom I share the same y-line descendancy is strikingly similar to your composition. Though his is British/Irish is a tad higher at around 16 percent. I too am at a loss with regards to continental origins.

My Y-line, which I thought I had finally pinned down, has changed once again! I was working with a theory that we were of possible Saxon descent by way of Kent. That ended up falling through. However, where one door closed another one opened.

I traced it back even further to Winkleigh, Devon and have finally made a legit connection to the homeland.. aka Devon. I've been researching mid to north-devon which is the quote, unquote Isaac family homeland.. and it seems the further back I trace it, the further North I end up..

Currently the two major areas of high frequency for my surname are North Devon and South Wales. SO, I'm beginning to look at the possibility of an Ultimately Welsh origin for my y-line.

Granted this is at 12 markers but I have no matches higher than 12. Wales seems like a good candidate. Now which side, north or south? I would say north given the percentages of Northern Ireland and Scotland, but what gives with France?