There are many Muslims on this forum, like Nausheen and W.S. and rational and others who I have never seen launching personal attacks. They hold true to their faith and propagate it and express their opposition to and challenge and debate beliefs that according to them are false (exactly like what we do), and do so in a way that does not involve name calling or insults or mocking another person's beliefs.

Their conduct is no less representative of Islam, if not more so actually, than Abu Loren's.

Very well said, TG.

God has the right to remain silent. For His advocates, however, each resigned shrug is a missed opportunity to win new converts.

note: "Believe me I will stoop even lower...."Doesn't this show what kind of god you serve? Doesn't it show the blackness upon your soul?

I don't know exactly what you are trying to say here, but if you are implying that Abu Loren's arrogance is an indicator of Islam please don't say that.

There are many Muslims on this forum, like Nausheen and W.S. and rational and others who I have never seen launching personal attacks. They hold true to their faith and propagate it and express their opposition to and challenge and debate beliefs that according to them are false (exactly like what we do), and do so in a way that does not involve name calling or insults or mocking another person's beliefs.

Their conduct is no less representative of Islam, if not more so actually, than Abu Loren's.

Peace in Christ.

*If I misunderstood your words and you were trying to say something else, please accept my apologies, but to me this sounded like you were implying that.

Oh no... and no need for apologies. I only meant what I am always saying. I meant it is a reflection on the heart of the individual, that perhaps they are the one who is astray and might want to examine themselves.I completely agree with you about others on this forum. This is always my point, that we need to see each other as individuals and never make an opinion based on lumping people into categories. We need to be discerning in how we define a believer, and an unbeliever. God knows those who are His and it is shown in the behaviors of the individual, not by the name by which they call themselves.Sorry, I am getting preachy.I appreciate your statement.Salaam,CH

I am really not trying to be insulting to you, but you haven't provided rebuttals to my points.

Originally posted by Abu Loren

Most people won't give you the time of day as you've come here to debate with Muslims without even reading the Holy Qur'an. But I feel sorry for you as you remind me of myself when I was a Christian lost and looking for answers. :)

Salaam Alaikum, Abu Loren.

You are wrong on two things.

Firstly, many people here are giving me "their time of day"... and I give them mine in return. I have had and am having some great discussions on and off this forum with Rational, W.S., Nausheen and Islamispeace.

Secondly, I am reading the Quran although I have not finished doing so yet. I just finished chapter 20.

Can I ask what made you leave Christianity and become a Muslim? How did your family and friends react when you did? What did you find appealing about Islam?

Feel free to answer all or none of these questions if this is too personal. I am just curious.

Originally posted by TG12345

1. You haven't managed to prove that Muhammad was right that 7 dates in the morning would cause that no toxins could harm a person.

Originally posted by Abu Loren

So you are a
man of proof? A man of science? You want to feed a poor soul seven dates from
Medina and then put a venomous snake around his neck? OK good….

A believer
who is sincere and who eats seven dates may be spared from death of toxins and
poison. We don’t know do we?

Why don't we know? What would be wrong with trying this out? Or are you afraid the man would die and thus Muhammad's words be proved wrong?

Originally posted by TG12345

2. You haven't managed to prove that there ever was the existence of a book called the Injil, a book that Christians allegedly believed in before they believed the Quran.

Originally posted by Abu Loren

I’ve already answered this in another thread, but like
many Christians you only want to see what you want to see.

I see what your books teach and I look at historical evidence.

Originally posted by Abu Loren

Do you accept that Prophet
Musa (Alayhi Salaam) received a revelation from God and later it was written
down into a book from and is called the Torah?

Yes.

Originally posted by Abu Loren

Do you also accept that Masih
Isa (Alayhi Salaam) also recived revelations from God and it was called the
Injil in Arabic. Part of these revelations are in the Gospels although it is
corrupted by man made additions and deletions. Not all of the books made it
into the Gospels as the Trinitarians hijacked it and only included their own
doctrine. [/QUOTE]

I accept that the Gospels are written accounts of Jesus and some of the things He said and did, one of the most important being His death on the cross.

Islam teaches that God gave Jesus a Book, like He gave Moses a Book and He gave Muhammad a Book.

There is no evidence of a Book that was given to Jesus or of Christians before or during Muhammad's time believing in the existence of such a book.

If the hadiths and Quran are to be believed, Christians in Muhammad's time had the Gospel with them since they were instructed to look into it to find Muhammad mentioned therein.

Also, in the hadith Bukhari we find the story of Waraqa, a Christian who met Muhammad and who wrote from the Gospel in Hebrew as much as God wanted him to write.

(1) Narrated 'Aisha: (the mother of the
faithful believers) The commencement of the Divine Inspiration to
Allah's Apostle was in the form of good dreams which came true like
bright day light, and then the love of seclusion was bestowed upon him.
He used to go in seclusion in the cave of Hira where he used to worship
(Allah alone) continuously for many days before his desire to see his
family. He used to take with him the journey food for the stay and then
come back to (his wife) Khadija to take his food like-wise again till
suddenly the Truth descended upon him while he was in the cave of Hira.
The angel came to him and asked him to read. The Prophet replied, "I do
not know how to read. The Prophet added, "The angel caught me
(forcefully) and pressed me so hard that I could not bear it any more.
He then released me and again asked me to read and I replied, 'I do not
know how to read.' Thereupon he caught me again and pressed me a second
time till I could not bear it any more. He then released me and again
asked me to read but again I replied, 'I do not know how to read (or
what shall I read)?' Thereupon he caught me for the third time and
pressed me, and then released me and said, 'Read in the name of your
Lord, who has created (all that exists) has created man from a clot.
Read! And your Lord is the Most Generous." (96.1, 96.2, 96.3) Then
Allah's Apostle returned with the Inspiration and with his heart beating
severely. Then he went to Khadija bint Khuwailid and said, "Cover me!
Cover me!" They covered him till his fear was over and after that he
told her everything that had happened and said, "I fear that something
may happen to me." Khadija replied, "Never! By Allah, Allah will never
disgrace you. You keep good relations with your Kith and kin, help the
poor and the destitute, serve your guests generously and assist the
deserving calamity-afflicted ones." Khadija then accompanied him to her
cousin Waraqa bin Naufal bin Asad bin 'Abdul 'Uzza, who, during the
PreIslamic Period became a Christian and used to write the writing with
Hebrew letters. He would write from the gospel
in Hebrew as much as Allah wished him to write. He was an old man and
had lost his eyesight. Khadija said to Waraqa, "Listen to the story of
your nephew, O my cousin!" Waraqa asked, "O my nephew! What have you
seen?" Allah's Apostle described whatever he had seen. Waraqa said,
"This is the same one who keeps the secrets (angel Gabriel) whom Allah
had sent to Moses. I wish I were young and could live up to the time
when your people would turn you out." Allah's Apostle asked, "Will they
drive me out?" Waraqa replied in the affirmative and said, "Anyone (man)
who came with something similar to what you have brought was treated
with hostility; and if I should remain alive till the day when you will
be turned out then I would support you strongly." But after a few days
Waraqa died and the Divine Inspiration was also paused for a while.
Narrated Jabir bin 'Abdullah Al-Ansari while talking about the period of
pause in revelation reporting the speech of the Prophet "While I was
walking, all of a sudden I heard a voice from the sky. I looked up and
saw the same angel who had visited me at the cave of Hira' sitting on a
chair between the sky and the earth. I got afraid of him and came back
home and said, 'Wrap me (in blankets).' And then Allah revealed the
following Holy Verses (of Quran): 'O you (i.e. Muhammad)! wrapped up in
garments!' Arise and warn (the people against Allah's Punishment),... up
to 'and desert the idols.' (74.1-5) After this the revelation started
coming strongly, frequently and regularly."
(Book #1, Hadith #3)

Clearly, the "Injil" existed in the time of Muhammad, since God had someone write from it and Christians were ordered to look into it to find Muhammad... unless you are suggesting that God ordered an elderly man to write from a corrupted book and that He ordered people to look into corrupted books to find Muhammad mentioned therein...

Originally posted by TG12345

3. You haven't shown me a verse from the Quran that calls on adulterers to be stoned to death, even though Muhammad claimed he judged the shepherd's son and the woman who committed adultery with him on the basis of the Quran.

Originally posted by Abu Loren

Again I told you in another thread that when Prophet
Muhammad (SalAllahu Alayhi Wa Sallam) was asked to judge a Jew he asked for the
Torah, and as you know the Torah is also from God so it is also ‘Alllah’s book
(Laws)’.

Yet we are not discussing that, we are discussing Hadith #365, in Bukhari. You stated very clearly that Allahs' Book (Laws) was in reference to the Quran.

Originally posted by TG12345

Salaam Alaikum, Abu Loren.

Is
"Allah's Book" a reference to the Quran in this hadith? I am assuming
this is the case, since I don't see why a Bedouin would want Muhammad to
judge his son on the basis of the Torah.

"Allah's Book" in this hadith refers to the Quran, right? If I am wrong, please correct me. Thanks.

(34) Narrated Abu Huraira: While we were
with Allah's Apostle a bedouin got up and said, "O Allah's Apostle!
Settle my case according to Allah's Book (Laws)." Then his opponent got
up and said, "O Allah's Apostle! He has said the truth! Settle his case
according to Allah's Book (Laws.) and allow me to speak," He said, "My
son was a laborer for this man and he committed illegal sexual
intercourse with his wife. The people told me that my son should be
stoned to death but I ransomed him with one-hundred sheep and a slave
girl. Then I asked the religious learned people and they told me that
his wife should be stoned to death and my son should receive one-hundred
lashes and be sentenced to one year of exile.' The Prophet said, "By
Him in Whose Hands my life is, I will judge between you according to
Allah's Book (Laws): As for the slave girl and the sheep, they are to be
returned; and as for your son, he shall receive one-hundred lashes and
will be exiled for one year. You, O Unais!" addressing a man from Bani
Aslam, "Go tomorrow morning to the wife of this (man) and if she
confesses, then stone her to death." The next morning Unais went to the
wife and she confessed, and he stoned her to death.
(Book #91, Hadith #365)

Abu Loren: Yes from the Holy Qur'an. 100 lashes for fornication and stoning for adultery.

Originally posted by Abu Loren

The Torah is also corrupted by man made additions and deletions.

Interesting view. If this is the case, why did God order the Jews to refer to it to find Muhammad mentioned in it?

Originally posted by Abu Loren

I’ve also provided the verse from the Holy Qur’an which
stipulates death for an adulterer. he Prophet (SalAllahu Alayhi Sallam) tells
us that it is by stoning that this punishment is to be carried out. Otherwise,
we could kill that person in any manner of things.

The verse doesn't actually say to kill them but to confine them in their homes until death takes them or God provides a better way.

Stoning is not mentioned in the Quran. You could argue God revealed it to Muhammad outside the Quran, but it is not included in it. Muhammad agreed to judge the woman by the Quran.

The Quran doesn't say to stone her, or even to kill her.

Furthermore, even if "until death takes them" is a reference to stoning, he did not have her confined to her home as the verse says must be done before she is to die.

[QUOTE]

Originally posted by TG12345

4. You haven't explained how is it possible that allegedly God told humanity that milk is pleasant for those who drink it, even though there are people with milk allergies who this pure drink literally kills. (refer to point made above to W.S.)

Originally posted by Abu Loren

This is silly just like Christianity. Of course milk is
good for humanity. You want God to tell us ‘Oh those with milk allergies please
don’t drink it’.

[QUOTE]

Are people with milk allergies not a part of humanity?

Or is milk pleasant for them too... even if it causes nausea, vomiting, anaphylaxis and even death in some of them?

If a doctor came out and said "aspirin is good for those who eat it" without stating a disclaimer that for some it can be deadly and to make sure a person is not allergic before taking it, he or she would probably lose their license. Someone who didn't know better who took their advice could possibly end up dead.

Originally posted by TG12345

5. You haven't explained how it is possible that before Muhammad the prophets were all sent to their nation only, but simultaneously Moses, who we agree was an Israelite and not Egyptian, was sent to Pharaoh, who was an Egyptian. (refer to point above made by W.S.)

[QUOTE=Abu Loren] Again silliness extraordinaire. You started a thread
asking questions about Prophet Musa (Alayhi Salaam) and we gave you the answers
with which you were satisfied. [/QUOTE]

True. You and other Muslims managed to convince me that Islam teaches that Moses was an Israelite and Pharaoh an Egyptian. This is what the Bible teaches too.

[QUOTE=Abu Loren] Prophet Musa (Alayhi Salaam) was not sent to
Egyptians but to set free his people the Children of Israel who were in bondage
and who were oppressed with a great oppression. Do you not know that he took
them out of Egypt and took them to the Promised Land? Did he take the Egyptians
or the Jews?

Moses was not

sent to the Egyptians, according to the Quran? Really???

20:42-29

"Go, thou and thy brother, with My Signs, and slacken not, either of you, in keeping Me in remembrance.

"Go, both of you, to Pharaoh, for he has indeed transgressed all bounds;

"But speak to him mildly; perchance he may take warning or fear (Allah)."

They (Moses and Aaron) said: "Our Lord! We fear lest he hasten with insolence against us, or lest he transgress all bounds."

He said: "Fear not: for I am with you: I hear and see (everything).

"So go ye both to him, and say,
'Verily we are messengers sent by thy Lord: Send forth, therefore, the
Children of Israel with us, and afflict them not: with a Sign, indeed,
have we come from thy Lord! and peace to all who follow guidance!

"'Verily it has been revealed to us that the Penalty (awaits) those who reject and turn away.'"

http://quran.com/20

26:10,11

Behold, thy Lord called Moses: "Go to the people of iniquity,-

"The people of the Pharaoh: will they not fear Allah?"

http://quran.com/26

Unless you are going to claim that Pharaoh was Jewish and so were his people, it is pretty obvious that according to the Quran, God sent Moses to the Egyptians as well as to the Israelites.

He sent him to warn the Egyptians, and to lead the Israelites out of Egypt.

According to Muhammad, however, all prophets before him were sent only to their nation. Moses wasn't.

[QUOTE=Abu Loren] If you say things like Muhammad was an intellignet person and that he meant well then nobody here will take you seriously.

Would you rather have me refer to him as a "devil", like you refer to Paul? Or should I call him a "pedophile" and a "terrorist"?

Or would you want me to lie and say I believe he was a prophet when I don't?

I will neither stoop to a low level and use insulting language, or lie. I will be honest about my belief.

Whether or not you take me seriously because of this matters quite little to be honest with you.

There are many Muslims on this forum, like Nausheen and W.S. and rational and others who I have never seen launching personal attacks. They hold true to their faith and propagate it and express their opposition to and challenge and debate beliefs that according to them are false (exactly like what we do), and do so in a way that does not involve name calling or insults or mocking another person's beliefs.

Their conduct is no less representative of Islam, if not more so actually, than Abu Loren's.

I have other examples but because of time constraints will leave it here for now. Looking forward to hearing your thoughts.

Originally posted by W.S.

Thanks for the reply! For now, I'll just say that I have discerned a couple of cracks before, and now more of them appeared. Take care yourself!

Salaam Alaikum, W.S.

I just wanted to say that although I believe it is very evident that there are a lot of 'cracks' in what Islam teaches, there is also a lot of good in it as well.

Your faith correctly teaches there is one God. It correctly teaches that He is good. It teaches that He sent prophets, and it teaches that He wants the world to come to know Him. It correctly teaches respect to parents, care for the vulnerable, disdain of adultery, fornication, homosexuality and other sins. It teaches many good things.

It does not promote murdering non-Muslims. It does not promote terrorism. It does not promote pedophilia. It does not teach the many evil things that people who are bigoted towards it and towards Muslims claim it does.

It does, however, tragically deny what God for us on the cross. It teaches Jesus was a prophet and respects Him, but it fails to see He was much more than that. It contradicts His teachings on love for enemies. I think these are the biggest problems that exist with it.

The inconsistencies and errors that are found in it prove to me that it cannot be from God, since God does not make mistakes.

Remember to seek after Him, though. Pray to Him, and ask Him to guide you. I pray He leads you to Him and that you accept what Christ did for you and us all on the cross.

As you look at the 'cracks' in Islam, remember to keep God first in your mind though. Do not allow them to take you away from Him. Remember that none of us are perfect, and do not allow the cracks you see to judge either Muhammad or your fellow Muslim brothers and sisters who do love Him and believe they are serving and worshiping Him to the best of their ability.

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