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I've been trolling this forum for a while now as I become increasingly curious about IS and training. My teachers have introduced me to a number of solo exercises, and I've found the information on this forum very helpful in directing my focus when doing these exercises. I was thinking it would be cool to have a thread-repository for different exercises and their respective points of interest to help people delve deeper in their practice. For example, a few that I've been working on include:

1. Sumo shiko

example
(aunkai version, not necessarily the best example, but it shows the basic form)

first level (as I understand it):
learning to keep ones balance medial to the standing leg by counter balancing within the 'frame'. One arm should stay up, while the other points out to the side. Then you use the raised arm to shift your weight back over when you want to smoothly settle back into original horse stance.

2nd level (as I understand it):
learning to tip over while winding/spiraling the whole body. Recently i discovered that by winding as I tip over, I can send energy down to my hanging foot by counter-winding my raised arm. this creates the feeling of me "pushing down" back into the ground as I settle back into the original horse stance. this is also coupled to an appropriately timed exhale. I often spend time just staying on one side for an extended period of time to study how spiraling allows me to maintain balance while I rotate sideways.

i think there's alot of other things to be said, particularly about opening/closing the kua as well as the rest of the body, but i'm not advanced enough yet to really articulate it, hence my motivation for starting this thread.

3rd level:
doing this with someone pushing on your shoulder. the idea is that you should be able to slip under them, thereby 'pushing back' without actually needing to lean into them (which, i understand, is a primary application for sumo wrestlers about to be pushed out of the ring)

2. "Winding"

Not necessarily the best title, but its what we call it at my dojo. I cant find a video of this one, but i would describe it as standing in a moderate horse stance with arms extended out to the sides, feet a little more than shoulder width apart, and correct vertical posture. you then use a firm connection to the ground to send spiral energy from feet, transmitted through hara, and out the finger tips. the arms appear to twist in opposite directions without bending any joints. one of my teacher says its like holding two coke cans and dumping them out in opposite directions. there is a feeling of moving one's "meat" around one's "bones" in that one is trying to minimize the overt movements during this practice.

1st level:
maintaining correct vertical posture, closing one knee while opening the other and correspondingly opening one kua while closing the other (without sacrificing the frame, allowing hips to move, etc), turning at the waist (e.g. twisting with hara / dan tien), and finally winding the hands in opposite directions with the palm of one hand ending up face-up and the other face-down corresponding to the closed knee / open kua and open knee / closed kua, respectively. for each iteration of this, one inhales to spiral/wind on one side, then exhales back into neutral position, then inhales into winding on the other side. while your shoulders will rotate about the spine to a certain extent, this is only a consequence of the core twisting movements.

2nd level:
I'm not really beyond the above level 1, but it seems to be about increasingly subtle core movements. there's the horizontal component of twisting/spiraling about the spine, and then there's the idea of picking up the hara/dantien and dropping it on the other side. I think this relates to opening/closing of the rib cage, but thats beyond me at this point. at the moment, i'm really limited by my ability to selectively control different muscle groups.

3rd level:
doing this with someone pushing on your chest. you can break their balance and move them around you. the objective is to change the angle of contact without 'moving the point' of contact. this leads to some pretty fun kokyu nage type applications.

Ultimately it seems that the same stuff shows up over and over in the various solo exercises. Its been very interesting for me to discover how different aspects of IS (spiraling, opening/closing, etc) show up at different points along the progression of practicing these solo exercises.

There are a bunch of other exercises I've been shown that I can contribute to this thread later, assuming anyone is interested. I know this is really basic stuff, but I'm a complete novice, so this is the best I can offer and stand to benefit greatly from such a discussion. I find different perspectives to be invaluable for learning this stuff.

Thank you for sharing. I can sympathize with your attempt and desire to learn more via this type of exchange. Even though I feel out of place addressing anything in specific (both because I'm a novice and don't feel this may be the best venue) I do like to offer back an observation and a question.

Your description strikes a chord since one glance at your dojo of origin reveals we share the same source when it comes to our IT. I imagine it would be hard if not impossible for most other parties to make much sense of (some parts) of your descriptions. Maybe these sort of specifics are best asked to those in the know (not me- yet).

So leaving that aside for now, is it possible for you to maybe share how IT is incorporared into your aikido dojo. I'm asking mostly because my impression is that those of us who wander the trail of IT, encounter at one time or another, the maybe difficult task to bring it/IT back into aikido. Some have pursued IT solely, some train solely solo for lack of a dojo that teaches/incorporates IT.

My apologies for the topic shift. It's something I'm interested in and you are one of the few posters whose dojo actually offer both: IT and aikido. Hence my interest.
Best regards,

Your description strikes a chord since one glance at your dojo of origin reveals we share the same source when it comes to our IT. I imagine it would be hard if not impossible for most other parties to make much sense of (some parts) of your descriptions. Maybe these sort of specifics are best asked to those in the know (not me- yet).

I see what you mean. I guess since reading on this forum, I thought this dialog about body mechanics would be welcomed.

Quote:

Ernesto Lemke wrote:

So leaving that aside for now, is it possible for you to maybe share how IT is incorporared into your aikido dojo.

I learned very early in my aikido training that solo practice is necessary for developing strong aiki. Given my rank and experience level, I hesitate to comment too strongly on "how its done", but I will say that our solo training profoundly improves nage's stability, body awareness, and control of uke's balance. I definitely apply the 'winding' principle from [2] during tenchi nage.

With respect to my dojo: the IS stuff is infused in everything we do. Gleason sensei teaches an internals class once a week and then vibes off the material from that class in his normal aikido classes. In addition, he often elaborates in terms of the kotodama as they relate to aiki and aikido. Its great

With respect to my dojo: the IS stuff is infused in everything we do. Gleason sensei teaches an internals class once a week and then vibes off the material from that class in his normal aikido classes. In addition, he often elaborates in terms of the kotodama as they relate to aiki and aikido. Its great

You get feedback on this stuff every week in your home dojo, while I have to wait for seminars coming my way. I envy you!

I apologize if my reply discouraged any further exchange. I have great sympathy for your attempt but in a sense you opened up a possible can of worms. I think this may be the first time anyone attempted to describe some of the exercises Dan offers on a public forum. Seeing as he is reluctant, dare I say adamant, in not offering any online “how to’s” with those unfamiliar with his approach, you may find very few people may respond other then maybe per PM.

I guess it may also possibly muddy the waters when you receive comments, feedback, sincere as they may be, from those who are unfamiliar with Dan’s approach. Even if they are in pursuit of IT themselves via other routes. This is not to say there cannot be any exchange, but as long as people differ on the meaning of terms like “spiraling”, “winding” “opening/closing” etc. it tends to get hard to get any decent exchange going.
But again, I sympathize with your desire to learn more. I guess I’m kinda with Dave on this. You lucky bastard!!!

Thanks for sharing how IT has it’s place in your dojo. I didn’t mean to imply wanting to know “how it’s done”, more how the approach to incorporating IT was accomplished. So from what I understand, there is one class that exclusively focuses on IT, and then a ‘regular’ aikido class that highlights, features those same IT elements within, I guess, aikido waza.
If you don’t mind me asking, is taking the IT classes considered obligatory? I am sure Gleason Sensei considers IT fundamental but one only needs to take a look at the types of discussions on Aikiweb over the years when it comes to the topic of IT/IS/IP/Aiki etc. to see how little consensus there actually is. From believers to non-believers and everything in between. I can see how folks with no innate desire to want to pursue IT will find it difficult to see how others consider IT so fundamental.

My interest lies not so much in your dojo or Gleason Sensei per se (though I admit I’m curious). It’s just that part of this ‘silent revolution’ imparts the choices people are making/need to make/needed to make when IT became such a profound aspect of their budo pursuits. Gleason Sensei’s choice seems to be having two distinct types of classes (though of course in reality they feed eachother). Others, like myself, are currently working almost exclusively on IT, but my goal is to find some balance during class. Whether that means starting with IT exercises and then work on waza I have yet to find out. Since I have my own dojo and we are only with five people it’s not so much of a problem. It’s something on my mind with the future in mind when new trainees come and enter expecting aikido, not those gruelsome, tedious, no-instant-succes type of drills. I can really see how Tokimune Takeda said his people didn’t want to do that stuff.
Maybe that’s just the nature of the IT beast. I dunno. In this day and age, with all the possibilities to exchange thoughts with people around the globe, there’s no harm in exploring ways in which people are looking for solutions to deal with this, is there?
Thanks for sharing.

PS
Walter, I was thinking we could throw that one out in the open after the seminar. And didn’t I mail the dates? I’m sure I did. See you, and Dave, and the rest next week.

My interest lies not so much in your dojo or Gleason Sensei per se (though I admit I'm curious). It's just that part of this ‘silent revolution' imparts the choices people are making/need to make/needed to make when IT became such a profound aspect of their budo pursuits. Gleason Sensei's choice seems to be having two distinct types of classes (though of course in reality they feed eachother). Others, like myself, are currently working almost exclusively on IT, but my goal is to find some balance during class. Whether that means starting with IT exercises and then work on waza I have yet to find out. Since I have my own dojo and we are only with five people it's not so much of a problem. It's something on my mind with the future in mind when new trainees come and enter expecting aikido, not those gruelsome, tedious, no-instant-succes type of drills. I can really see how Tokimune Takeda said his people didn't want to do that stuff.
Maybe that's just the nature of the IT beast. I dunno. In this day and age, with all the possibilities to exchange thoughts with people around the globe, there's no harm in exploring ways in which people are looking for solutions to deal with this, is there?
Thanks for sharing.

I am not the OP, and also, I don't do aikido waza any more. In truth, I am now just a poor pathetic grappler. But it is grappling empowered by body connection, so some observations on how that integration has played out:

If you are not limited to a predetermined set of waza and are actually inventing your technique on a regular basis so as to highlight body connection you are building at bottom, it becomes pretty impossible for others to do said technique well at all if they are not also practicing said body connection.

The relationship is tremendously synergistic. The more extreme and demanding said applied situations are of body connection, the more they point out flaws in your connectivity you need to work on. Without these applied benchmarks, one can and will, with probably almost 100% certainty, be repeating the same flaws over and over in solo work, because one is not aware they are flaws.

The other trap is that if some particular benchmark is relied upon too much, it becomes easy to train to the test, rather than develop the ability to do the test as a consequence of improved general ability. Or similar trap, picking only the benchmarks that highlight the microcosm you feel satisfied with. Variety, variety, variety.

After a point, trying to do solo work with others becomes decidedly non-solo, and there ain't much point if even your teacher can't spot the flaws anymore from the outside. Class-time is for finding flaws, either by observation of someone better, or by experimenting in above applied benchmarks. Solo work is mostly best done at home, solo, and then you come back and train with others to find out what the result of that was, rinse, lather, repeat.

So, for my 2c, to only do solo work is a mistake and to do no solo work is a mistake. To do a small fixed set of solo work and a small fixed set of waza to utilize it is also a mistake. More or less, that is why I have found aikido training such as it is most commonly found to be incompatible with my progression and explored other avenues. YMMV.

Hello Azriel,
I apologize if my reply discouraged any further exchange. I have great sympathy for your attempt but in a sense you opened up a possible can of worms. I think this may be the first time anyone attempted to describe some of the exercises Dan offers on a public forum. Seeing as he is reluctant, dare I say adamant, in not offering any online "how to's" with those unfamiliar with his approach, you may find very few people may respond other then maybe per PM.

I guess it may also possibly muddy the waters when you receive comments, feedback, sincere as they may be, from those who are unfamiliar with Dan's approach. Even if they are in pursuit of IT themselves via other routes. This is not to say there cannot be any exchange, but as long as people differ on the meaning of terms like "spiraling", "winding" "opening/closing" etc. it tends to get hard to get any decent exchange going.
But again, I sympathize with your desire to learn more. I guess I'm kinda with Dave on this. You lucky bastard!!!

Thanks for sharing how IT has it's place in your dojo. I didn't mean to imply wanting to know "how it's done", more how the approach to incorporating IT was accomplished. So from what I understand, there is one class that exclusively focuses on IT, and then a ‘regular' aikido class that highlights, features those same IT elements within, I guess, aikido waza.
If you don't mind me asking, is taking the IT classes considered obligatory? I am sure Gleason Sensei considers IT fundamental but one only needs to take a look at the types of discussions on Aikiweb over the years when it comes to the topic of IT/IS/IP/Aiki etc. to see how little consensus there actually is. From believers to non-believers and everything in between. I can see how folks with no innate desire to want to pursue IT will find it difficult to see how others consider IT so fundamental.

My interest lies not so much in your dojo or Gleason Sensei per se (though I admit I'm curious). It's just that part of this ‘silent revolution' imparts the choices people are making/need to make/needed to make when IT became such a profound aspect of their budo pursuits. Gleason Sensei's choice seems to be having two distinct types of classes (though of course in reality they feed eachother). Others, like myself, are currently working almost exclusively on IT, but my goal is to find some balance during class. Whether that means starting with IT exercises and then work on waza I have yet to find out. Since I have my own dojo and we are only with five people it's not so much of a problem. It's something on my mind with the future in mind when new trainees come and enter expecting aikido, not those gruelsome, tedious, no-instant-succes type of drills. I can really see how Tokimune Takeda said his people didn't want to do that stuff.
Maybe that's just the nature of the IT beast. I dunno. In this day and age, with all the possibilities to exchange thoughts with people around the globe, there's no harm in exploring ways in which people are looking for solutions to deal with this, is there?
Thanks for sharing.

Hello Ernesto
Azriel is eager to discuss new tools, but his descriptions are flawed.
I think you pretty much pegged my views on sharing anymore. When I see people describe methods that are contrary to others methods it needs to be discussed with a few things in mind.
Accuracy in descriptions
Reasons for doing things
Possible pedagogy
Effectual results

One example would be spiraling and body axis. We all know the famous disagreements between same-side body axis crowd and then when I showed up stating the lines cross the body. Later in discussions with reeling silk I thought it comical since I have now met and discussed this with Master Class Chen guys who posited the same thing, only to read an amateur, former Chen guy going back to the same side three axis theory. It made no sense.
You can read a bit of the same side discussion here which states categorically that the lines do not cross the body, as opposed to a more classic approach where the spiral does indeed cross the body line as seen in Koryu and Daito ryu, on the Japanese side of things and Taiji and bagua on the Chinese side of things as seen here in the opening drawings by a student of Feng Zhiqiang. None of the lines are an accurate, detailed, portrait but they convey the idea.
This of course coincides with Anatomy trains demonstrating the spiral in excised tissue off the human frame that indeed crosses the body front and back. If we are to consider that breath training infuses the connective tissue; tendon/ fascia and blood, then one needs to consider that the breath- activating and pulling, winding, stretching, and pushing tissue- would then be spiraling across the body- as is consistent with Morihei Ueshiba's description of breath spiraling up and down, the correct Chinese model, and Weapons. It is also consistent with Chen Fake's admonitions about double weighting and the use of opposite side support.

I am not here to start wars or arguments. When I initially saw these discussions years ago I thought it would be great to enter in again, only to discover that they were plagued with the same agenda driven, factionalism, insulting invective, and the stealing of information without giving credit and then accusing the one you stole the information from as being the one who got it from you.
So I bailed on offering any more details. I have the statements, seminar hand outs and video that predate my involvement, then the changed material after I started discussing central axis and opposite hand and foot and opposing spirals that were never even brought up for discussion prior to my arrival.
Later, as it always does, clarity entered the picture as exposure through hands-on and video revealed that those who borrowed the information were obviously still "working it" as displayed in their flaw ridden movements. I have even suggested some people pull their videos as what they were doing was widely condemned from qualified Chinese teachers as flawed for the exact same reasons I outlined and was slammed for offering.

Until the discussions are honest, sincere and avoid insults and threats, I am not taking part in any more details. It's nicer, more calm and definitive to discuss and review oppossing views on martial movement in person. I don't mind strident disagreement-we don't all have to agree- as long as there are real world powerful and able people behind those opinions. Anything else is sort of non-starter. Theory is theory. I think some of you have been had, with this idea that everyone agrees to one model in China. It's pure B.S., but in the land of the blind, the one eyed man is king. Its why I keep pointing away from here for people to read, meet and widen their exposure to more input. Go explore and then decide. You might find some interesting and curious people...and maybe even make some great friends on the way.
Dan

Congratulations, you managed to draw out a big grin from the big Kahuna himself, but don't let that go to your head since he is easily amused at times

Anyway, your idea to post details on solo training is a good one, however, as you can see from Ernesto's and Dan's posts, there can be some issues with getting on the same page of understanding with others that are not familiar with the same exercise you are doing - and even if there are similarities in the movements, that does not mean the focal point is the same.

IMO, the main focal point of any exercise is on the objective of the exercise and not just a ‘how to' on the physical movements, this is especially important in IS exercises where there is more mental things going on than is readily evident in an observation of the movement.

So with that said, some folks on Aikiweb may be familiar with some parts of the exercises you posted about, but unless they have been with Dan, will not know all of the objectives of what the exercises are designed for. I am a firm believer in keeping things simple, so I look at things to try and determine just exactly what it is that is being accomplished, and then I look at other things that may be able to get me the same thing - I do this with these solo exercises. There are many of them out there so I just focus on what I am trying to accomplish and will then condense things down to what works best for me, and this brings me to just a handful of things I concentrate on. Once you have an understanding of the objectives, you can even develop your own exercises and drills to customize what you need the most. However, the key here is knowing exactly what that is based on feedback from your instructor and training partners

I also think that the exercise should not be viewed in multiple levels - maybe broken down in different parts to help understand better, but there should be only one level of the whole exercise that should be at the core of the reason for doing that exercise, even though there may be multiple benefits from a single exercise - all benefits should be in your focal point at the same time.

I also would like to say how fortunate you are to be training where you are - you are getting high quality Aikido training coupled with high quality IS training as a complete package - most of us other un-enlightened folks need to compile it all from multiple sources

Good luck in your training

Greg

Ps: Oh, one other thing - of all of Dan's exercises, I think the ‘winding' one with spiraling is the most important one, especially when done with no external movement

I apologize if my reply discouraged any further exchange. I have great sympathy for your attempt but in a sense you opened up a possible can of worms. I think this may be the first time anyone attempted to describe some of the exercises Dan offers on a public forum. Seeing as he is reluctant, dare I say adamant, in not offering any online "how to's" with those unfamiliar with his approach, you may find very few people may respond other then maybe per PM.

Yes--a testament to my naivete, I was unaware of the can of worms which I was opening. I did not mean to open a discussion of what Dan does or does not teach, I was trying to get people exchange notes on what they personally do, and how they think about body mechanics. But now I can see the can, as well as the worms.

Quote:

Ernesto Lemke wrote:

So from what I understand, there is one class that exclusively focuses on IT, and then a ‘regular' aikido class that highlights, features those same IT elements within, I guess, aikido waza.

We have one class a week called "Aiki basics" in which we get feedback on our solo work, do paired exercises, and look at some applications to aikido. Gleason sensei frequently reminds us that solo exercises must be done regularly on our own to see any benefits. Later, in normal aikido classes, it is apparent to those who attend the aiki basics class that he is applying the material in the aikido waza. Those that are not into the IS training simply miss out.

In general, it is my personal impression that Gleason sensei emphasizes PRINCIPLES of movement, power, etc. He recognizes that proper technique is important, but points out that we must never lose sight of the underlying message. We are frequently prompted to ask our selves "why" not just "how".

Quote:

Ernesto Lemke wrote:

If you don't mind me asking, is taking the IT classes considered obligatory? I am sure Gleason Sensei considers IT fundamental but one only needs to take a look at the types of discussions on Aikiweb over the years when it comes to the topic of IT/IS/IP/Aiki etc. to see how little consensus there actually is. From believers to non-believers and everything in between. I can see how folks with no innate desire to want to pursue IT will find it difficult to see how others consider IT so fundamental.

No, it is not obligatory at all. Those that want to work on this stuff are given the opportunity to reap the benefits. Those that are not interested... do not.

I guess I fall into the camp of "once you feel it, its hard to deny it". As I said, I came into aikido + IS training from day 1, so I find it difficult to understand how people could not be interested in IS training. They only stand to benefit from it. But thats me. To each, their own.

Quote:

Ernesto Lemke wrote:

Gleason Sensei's choice seems to be having two distinct types of classes (though of course in reality they feed eachother). Others, like myself, are currently working almost exclusively on IT, but my goal is to find some balance during class. Whether that means starting with IT exercises and then work on waza I have yet to find out.

To be clear, I do not want to give the impression that I am speaking for my dojo or my sensei.

It is my personal impression that my sensei's choice is to give his students the opportunity to engage in different types of training all aimed towards the same "big picture" goal of developing strong aiki feeling and free, expressive martial movement. We have separate classes so that those that want to delve deeper can do so without imposing this training on others in the dojo that are not so concerned. The IS material is far more implicit in the normal aikido classes--its obvious to those who care, and invisible to those that don't.

As we make personal progress with our IS training, we who are interested get to reap the benefits in our technique and and more general development.

Don't beat yourself up. I think it was merely your enthusiasm. There are more people out there like you

Thanks for the insight, from your perspective, on IT within your dojo. It's an interesting idea. I do wonder how this will turn out in the long run for the ones who only take the aikido classes. Will they see a gap occur, body skill wise, with their fellow trainees who do take part in the IT classes? How will they cope with that? Exciting times, I think, but then I'm already beyond saving....
Take care.

I do wonder how this will turn out in the long run for the ones who only take the aikido classes. Will they see a gap occur, body skill wise, with their fellow trainees who do take part in the IT classes? How will they cope with that? Exciting times, I think, but then I'm already beyond saving....
Take care.

All things being equal they will lose...period. There is no way to be polite about it. If you train Ueshiba's aiki correctly, no one from Aikido™ will be able to deal with you. So for those students opting out...it's only a matter of time before they are helpless to stop those training aiki. Aikido™ will always fail against the way of aiki (O sensei's aiki...do). It cannot be avoided.
Dan

Of course I knew the redundancy of my question regarding the difference in body skill. It's just that I wonder whether that fact will bring about change on the part of the non-believers, non-interested, whatever you wish to name it.
Will it bring about change? For sure. I'm just curious how. Looking for example where I live, Holland, there seems really very little interest in IT. Aikido dojo and organizations are scattered into many fractions and sub fractions and... sigh, I don't know of any big names interested in this stuff. At least none signed up for neither the first nor second seminar and I don't recall any people of high rank (sorry Piet-not you) at Ark's seminar either. So, at least on this part of the globe the 'revolution' seems far faaaaar away.

It'd be great as Hugh describes to see how people who where exposed to this from day one will evolve. Like Hugh, I can't go back in time neither so my also 20 years in is something I can't erase. Maybe talk some more in a couple of years.

@Lee: I want to reply to your post but I just don't know how. Sorry. Appreciate the effort, just not sure what to make of it.

Of course I knew the redundancy of my question regarding the difference in body skill. It's just that I wonder whether that fact will bring about change on the part of the non-believers, non-interested, whatever you wish to name it.
Will it bring about change? For sure. I'm just curious how. Looking for example where I live, Holland, there seems really very little interest in IT. Aikido dojo and organizations are scattered into many fractions and sub fractions and... sigh, I don't know of any big names interested in this stuff. At least none signed up for neither the first nor second seminar and I don't recall any people of high rank (sorry Piet-not you) at Ark's seminar either. So, at least on this part of the globe the 'revolution' seems far faaaaar away.

It'd be great as Hugh describes to see how people who where exposed to this from day one will evolve. Like Hugh, I can't go back in time neither so my also 20 years in is something I can't erase. Maybe talk some more in a couple of years.

@Lee: I want to reply to your post but I just don't know how. Sorry. Appreciate the effort, just not sure what to make of it.

Hah, no worries, I violated my own one-paragraph-hit-and-run-post policy. Old habits die hard.

Dunno, though, once you start seeing what people can be do within the realm of body conditioning, how can someone not be interested in it? Just seems a lack of exposure to good material and familiarity with the results of it.

And the revolution isn't so far on this side of the globe, it just looks different. I am "stuck" in Finland right now, yet there is a lot of interesting stuff going on here behind closed-doors and outside of them. It just requires a perspective shift. Lots of good CMA players and oddballs around these parts. Okay, so it's not gonna be aikido, but that just means the fun work of reinvention is up to you.

Hate to disappoint both of you, but I'll be the one showing up, supporting aikido, when *you* (plural) show up. And I'll be bringing Jill. You (plural) might want to think about training harder. LOL!

Well, that just may be, but you missed my point - my emphasis was on the "Nobody" part and not the disruption part - even though I do have some talent in that area as well - of course, not as much as you and Jill