Don’t say the “P” word

“If you mention sustainable agriculture, agroforestry, ecology, and so on, you are fine. But as soon as you say ‘Permaculture’, they will ask you to leave, shut the door, or hang up the phone.”

I have heard variations of these statements for years. The people who make these statements are typically individuals who are working closely with those in mainstream agriculture. They may be conventional farmers or ranchers who have discovered the science of Permaculture and have converted their operations. They may be first-generation Permaculture farmers/ranchers who are positively involved with their community. They may be consultants who help well-established or brand new farmers/ranchers develop more holistic, sustainable, and regenerative management systems. The bottom line, though, is that these people are speaking from experience. They have had the door slammed in their face when the land owner hears the word “Permaculture”.

I want to dive into this issue. I am sure there will be people who disagree, in whole or in part, with my take on this topic, but I believe we need to be talking more openly about this issue. Because it is an issue in the Permaculture world. Ignoring it will not make it go away. Talking about it, working through the issues, and being open and honest about it are the only ways to resolve it. So let’s start…

First
I believe, as I have said, that the people who make these statements are telling the truth. I do believe they have had positive experiences with certain individuals until the word Permaculture is used. Then they are shut down. It is important that I am clear. This does happen. However…

SecondI believe that these experiences occur way less, and are often significantly less dramatic, than it appears. It is human nature to remember, and tell the story of, negative experiences. These are the stories that stick with people. They have a big impact on the person who experienced it and on the person who hears the retelling. This is true in any industry from restaurants to cell phones to medicine. It takes dozens, or more, positive experiences to undo the damage of one, single, negative experience. I have been studying and talking about Permaculture for over a decade, and I have never had one of these experiences. I have spoken with many, many farmers and ranchers about Permaculture. While they don’t always agree with my assessment, we at least have a decent conversation about it, and some have been very interested. To be fair and honest, I am not a consultant, and I have yet to practice Permaculture on a broad scale (which is a significant issue I will talk about next), so I am not in the same position as some of those who have had these negative experiences. However, I would love to know, from these individuals who have had these negative experiences, how many times they have had a negative experience versus how many times they have had a positive one. I think this is a very important part of the equation.

Third
We need to address why these negative experiences do occur. I believe, based on the stories people tell, that these negative experiences are a direct result of prior Permaculturists who are, to be honest, complete idiots. Every field of study, every area of interest, has their share of idiots, and Permaculture is no different. Imagine this scenario…

Imagine you are a conventional farmer. You truly believe you are helping to feed the world. Yes, you do think there are some significant issues that should be dealt with, but you are doing what father and your grandfather have done for decades, and it works. You provide “food for the world”, and you provide an income to care for your family. Then one day, someone shows up at your farm or at the farm store or randomly on the street in a chance conversation. They tell you that you are destroying the world. They tell you that you are the cause for climate change (which you are not really sure you believe is occurring anyway)… oh, and you should become a vegetarian, too. They tell you that you need to change what your family has been doing for generations, and do it now, to save the planet. They tell you that you can actually make more money with only a fraction of the work. They tell you that you can create Utopia on Earth, and Gaia will reward you for it. They tell you to embrace Permaculture. Then, if the conversation hasn’t been too confrontational yet, you ask about their experience history. They look a little confused for a moment, a little unsure of themselves, and then they tell you they have never actually farmed. They tell you they have only just started a garden this year for the first time, but they have a lot of great tomatoes. They tell you they have no idea how to transition from a farm with a steady cash flow to a Permaculture paradise while still being able to provide for your family and not lose the farm. But they did take a 72-hour course that involved mud baths and drum circles, and they are confident that it will work.

Yes, I took a little liberty in making this a worst case scenario… sort of, because this is not that far from the stories I have heard. It appears that most of the time it is the well-meaning, but inexperienced, new Permaculturist who is motivated to change the world that is causing these problems. In this scenario, other than making other Permaculturists look bad, no true harm was done. The real damage is done when an inexperienced Permaculturist convinces a farmer to make significant changes… and things fail.

But we need to be level headed about this. This occurs in mainstream, conventional agriculture all the time, but because the recommendations were given by an agricultural extension agent or a university, all is forgivable or at least accepted. And let us not forget that these mistakes have been made by the best Permaculturists as well. I vaguely recall a story Bill Mollison told where he is compared to public enemy number one in a certain town. He recommended, and implemented, the large-scale planting of a tree with large thorns (if I remember correctly) that ended up being the bane of any wheeled vehicle in the entire area. He relates how they curse his name to this day!

The Permaculture Wardrobe – this is how Permaculture fits into my worldview.

Fourth
Permaculture is not just an alternative approach. I have heard people say, “I use Permaculture when it fits, and I use other methods when they are more appropriate.” This is fundamentally different than my view. Permaculture is a filter that all methods, interventions, and actions pass through before being implemented. The specific parts of the filter are Permaculture’s Prime Directive (The only ethical decision is to take responsibility for own existence and that of our children.) andPermaculture’s Three Ethics (Earth Care, People Care, and Return of the Surplus). As a physician, I have the privilege to practice the only other ethical science that I know, medicine. The ethics of medicine (Hippocrates’ charge: First do no harm) guides how medical providers should approach every decision with their patient. Permaculture is the same. We may use any method or action as long as it passes through Permaculture’s ethical filter. There is not a specific “Permaculture” method or system. I created the image above, based on Geoff Lawton’s description of the Permaculture Wardrobe, to illustrate how all methods, actions, and fields of study or design fits within Permaculture.

Fifth
Avoiding the word Permaculture is the wrong approach. I also don’t think we need to use it excessively either. However, if what we are doing is, indeed, Permaculture, then don’t be afraid to use the word. Permaculture is a science, a design science. Engineers do not avoid using the word Mathematics. Astronauts don’t avoid using the word Astronomy. Why should we, as Permaculturists, as planet regenerators, avoid using the word Permaculture? Because some people don’t like it? Really? We need a unified approach in my opinion. How about we use the word, use it often, use it appropriately, and then implement it with excellence!

Why am I so passionate about Permaculture? A photo answer…

Permaculture Ethics

Happy Permaculture Day… Earn your PDC!

24 Comments

Wonderful argument, and yes, I have met your worst case scenario, kept me away from Permaculture for years. Now, I have my PDC and I am transitioning my farm. However, there were no mud baths, or drum circles in my PDC, it was over the internet and rather intensive, took me two years to do, as I was on paper applying all I had learned to my farm.

What I would really like, is a doctor with your attitude in my neighborhood. How refreshing. We need more of you.

There is a saying in the business world that you should have ready a 1 minute, clear explanation of what you do or your business does when asked in an elevator or an airplane. It would help if there was developed an acceptable definition of Permaculture that we could rattle off as an introduction to the science rather than each of us struggling and floundering while trying to boil down the complex topic into a coherent, non-threatening sentence. Until then, I continue to use the word in order to spread the wealth to those unfamiliar with it.

I know that I am guilty of not having an elevator speech ready and feel like I really should. . I recently had lunch with a farmer who I believe is in his 60’s, with whom I have many mutual friends and when asked the question, “what is permaculture” I found myself not ready with an answer. At the same time, I tried really hard to not be the character John described in this article and but think I erred on the side of being TOO humble.

Most of my “evangelizing” of permaculture was more along the lines of “Have you heard of Joel Salatin? Greg Judy? Allen Savory. (Not necessarily permaculture guys per se, I was trying to find middle ground.) He of course had. There were a few other name out there he had never heard of, but he brought up Mark Shepherd. He started asking me specifics about some of Marks techniques and I preceded to, as humbly as possible tell him what I did know and confess that I had no idea when I didn’t know, but I know he was making it work.

I agree x’s 5 with your blog and with Kim’s response above. It is bound to happen, just as you say, because people do have a tendency to remember and report the negative much more often. My personal experiences have been few, but the worst response I’ve received is simply the glazed-over eyes response (similar to my work explanations of geospatial data and remote sensing). I do believe in the permaculture concept wholeheartedly and will continue to promote it along with beneficial microorganisms and mycorrhizal applications. There is so much to learn in all these areas, but anything we can do to promote them will bring us all closer to more sustainable and healthier lives for the earth and all that live on her. PS-I don’t have drum circles or mud baths either. Keep up your efforts and thank you.

Spot on John and thanks I did add “The Only Mainframe Design System which Includes Everything Else” to your excellent rendition of Geoff’s wardrobe/toolbox analogy.Here we don’t have a lot of experienced Permaculturists and the more genuine they are the less vocal they seem to be so some things won’t be said unless by rookies with the inherent lack of experience dangers.Our bureaucracy calls Permaculture the P word and are committed to solutions that have made us “a world leader in climate adaptation as proved at COP17” and many other similar validations and honours including selection as one of the 100 Resilient cities by the Rockerfeller Foundation who also back climate-smart agriculture. These false solutions act as a barrier to Permaculture as does basking in the rosy glow of world acclaim nicely funded to protect business as usual with Rockerfeller dollars which is a bit tough to swallow for those who recognise Permaculture to be a “real” climate change solution so agreed lets call a spade a spade and Permaculture Permaculture and on to victory!

Permaculture with its ethical bases is often thought of as a philosophy of design instead of a design science. By starting a conversation telling people the philosophical base (Earth care, People Care, Return of surplus) will in many cases put off people looking for concrete help.
If the discussion is started with “Permaculture is a design science with an ethical basis” the conversation may be much more fruitful. This enables the person you are talking to pick the path of discussion they identify with, science or philosophy.

Work with people who are coming to you because you have the courage to represent permaculture as a design science, because they are the people who will effectively make the changes we need.
Stick to this approach and you will never be able to keep up with the enquiry if you really can represent the fullest, widest, broadest, and all inclusion as possible of permaculture design as a systems approach and as a directive to act. If you live the system to the best of your well intended present ability with ever intention to take up further engagement if invited and you intend to say YES. If you really think you can help and if when you try and the mission is beyond your capability you have every intention to admit to it but learn as quick as you can by seeking help from people with the experience that you admire for what they have done, achieved and are doing (even if you do not always like or agree with what they say), you are in for a very exciting life long journey.

You make a great point and back it up with a very logical argument. It doesn’t make sense to avoid the p-word! Doing so may keep people away out of ignorance who may otherwise have been successful practitioners. I don’t think it matters much what you do in the world — someone won’t like it, and they’ll let you know. There’s no way to convert or convince everyone, and that’s fine. But that doesn’t mean the rest of us can’t practice the techniques or use the word with pride.

Permaculture is what it is. most people are interested and ask questions. I think if a little knowledge is offered, the information proven to work successfully, more information is sought to build on and add to. We must encourage people to see for themselves how they can apply permaculture and to take resposibility for the care respect of the earth from which we take so much. If permaculture is a dirty word then I will roll in the mud.

Great article again, John. To me, this is evidence that we are having an impact. “Regular people” are including the idea that bees are important, microbiology exists and affects yields, and that the soil is being depleted. I agree that we need to present our ideas in a way that can be receptive to the intended population. When I was talking to a few “regular guys” I just said, “If you grew these fruit in your yard, they’d be the best tasting ones you ever ate, and it would be incredibly cheap.” They completely understood immediately.
John S
PDX OR

John,
You said you “have yet to practice Permaculture on a broad scale (which is a significant issue I will talk about next),”
When you say you will talk about next, does that mean your next article? Because I didn’t see it addressed in this one.

JP – I meant to add a more direct statement referring back to this, but my point was that the many times people are turned off to Permaculture is because a person with no experience tells them how to do it “right”. I don’t have that experience (yet), and so I am very careful about how I talk about Permaculture with existing farmers/ranchers. I don’t change, but I have a different strategy. We have more and more examples every year of people being successful on the large-scale, so these conversations get easier and easier.

Thanks John.
Though I was secretly looking forward to an article dedicated to that subject.
I totally got what you are saying about the lack of experience. Thankfully we do have Zaytuna farm and New Forrest farm to point to.

In my career I have found that most farmers are experts on their farming operations. They can all see the deterioration of their soil quality and resultant rising inputs/costs. They understand to varying degrees connections between a healthy ecology and good production. The vast majority love their land and would love to practice earthcare, but feel trapped in an economic farming model that is reinforced all around them, and they don’t feel they can easily break out of.

Most commercial farmers are caught in debt farming cycle where they borrow money from banks to finance their annual production and then pay back after the years harvest, with their farms as security on the loans. They simply cannot afford a break in production to facilitate the conversion to a permaculture system, and few are willing to risk their livelihoods and land venturing into the relatively unknown.

I think farmers need a conversion science added to design science. Concrete, scientifically proven, financially viable, practical steps to be taken to convert to sustainable land use systems.

The costs and benefits of using organic rather than chemical fertilisers, pesticides, fungicides, etc. Until a real ecological balance and vitality is restored.

The costs and benefits of multifunctional windbreaks.

The costs and benefits of crop diversification. Where and how does the average farmer market medium scale production? This is question number one for most farmers.

As permaculture designers we can of course add the steps needed to achieve a sustainable land use system, but can we really offer it in a way that makes sense to the farmer?

More exposure to farmers that have undergone this process and can speak from practical experience. I think that farmers like Joel Salatin, Alan Savory, the Yeomans, etc offer more to the average farmer than Mollison and a 72 hour pdc (I also do believe that all farmers should attend a 72 hour pdc, preferably in school or agricultural college).

We also need more scientifically and financially based case studies of the conversion process.

I think you bring up some incredibly important points. For Permaculture to go mainstream, one of the key components is having models for conventional farmers to transition. I think this is being done, but it is not being documented nearly as much as we need. The non-farmer, new to Permaculture, sees the difference between conventional farming (A) and the amazing examples of Permaculture designed landscapes (Z). They often fail to see that there is a big transition from A to Z. There are many stages in between. It can, as has, been done. But there is very little “proof” out there that can be easily found. I hope that will change soon.

these negative experiences are a direct result of prior Permaculturists who are, to be honest, complete idiots.

Idiots might be a bit strong but your point is well taken. I’ve run into freshly-minted, bright-eyed folks right out of a permie course and do they ever believe that they’ve seen the light. Any constructive critique of any aspect of what they’ve been taught is aggressively – yes, that’s the right word – responded to with what they’ve been taught, verbatim. I suppose that part of the problem is teachers teaching students who become teachers who teach students who become teachers. Not a great deal of hands-on experience in that process which means little or no ability to assess what’s being taught. With no quality control over the teaching process, anyone can put on a course. I’ve been to a couple of permaculture events where it was very clear that the folks involved were conveying some info that was just plain wrong. That wrong information will get repeated, perhaps even imbedded.

Perhaps the classic bit of wrong information being repeated over and over is this – http://oregonbd.org/Classaccum.htm which originates here – http://permaculturesource.wikispaces.com/file/view/Nutrient+and+Dynamic+Accumulators.pdf
And, in varying degrees, this information is include in Hemenway’s book and Jacke and Toensmeier’ book. Toensmeier now goes as far as to say “I might add that, while Dave and I provided hundreds of footnotes to our sources in Edible Forest Gardens, the dynamic accumulator section is one that needs an overhaul. Most of our data came from Kourick who is about to release an update to his research. In fact I don’t really teach dynamic accumulators in my courses any more at all, until we get some more data.”.

Just about all of the information in Fig. 17.4 is wrong. None of the references cited contain any of the info in the table. The table is complete fiction.

If you want to see what plants have what macro and micro nutrients, there is a USDA database assembled by Dr. James Duke when we was looking for plants with potential for cancer treatment. You will find plants with their chemical compounds listed in ppm.

I just heard on the radio that Victoria in Australia had achieved the highest states food/agriculture production. About to think condeming thoughts of monoculture chemical agriculture practices, the radio announcement went on to explain it was because of the growing diversity of crops & produce. The practices might not be all wonderful, but the diversity is great. Shhhhh, just don’t call it ‘permaculture’. Terms such as ‘sustainable agriculture’ are getting around quite often though.