AverageAmericanGuy:Amazon killed Borders. Now people without the Internet can't buy books.

So, yeah, it sounds great and it's really convenient to buy stuff online and have it delivered. But once you leave your little technologically enhanced sphere, there are plenty of disadvantaged people out there that rely on bricks and mortar stores to supply their needs. If you kill off the local dealership, you're taking that choice away from them and hurting us all.

nolanomad:Ask a salesman some time about the 50-60 hours they put in a week, time missed from spouse, kids, friends, etc. Working open to close several days a week, just to have a customer say "okay, is that your best price? thanks" then head across town and go to ABC Motors and say "can you beat this by a hundred bucks?" Ag ...

This is why we have to have the non-competitive litany of laws to preserve to oligolopoly of dealerships. Otherwise where would people get these shiatty jobs that they like to biatch about on the internet? Retail? Puh-leeze!

Went to dealer, ordered a truck with the options I wanted. And stated in build order that customer takes delivery at assembly plant. 8 weeks later flew up to Fort Wayne and picked up my silverado. No destination charge, and even used GM family discount. Being in a small town has its merits. I did buy extended warranty from dealer, boy was I glad I did.

nolanomad:need to speak up on this "middle man" nonsense. Show of hands, how many of you butcher your own meat, distill and bottle your own booze, build your own furniture, etc. Sure a few... but most of us expect to be able to go somewhere and purchase things that have been prepared, assembled, bottled, and deal with a "middle man"- a grocer, a shoe salesman, a waiter at a restaurant, what have you. At some point in time, it was decided that big ticket items- vehicles, real estate- could be negotiated. If you got screwed by a dealer/salesman/etc at a car place, go elsewhere... but just a heads up, a moment's thought:

In 2000 I bought a car on carsdirect from a dealer in New Jersey. It was the most satisfying car buying experience I have ever had. Then I moved to Oklahoma where people worship the car dealers as celebrities, even though they are all scumbags.

stonicus:nolanomad: As far as rearranging your schedule to find time to visit? Ask a salesman some time about the 50-60 hours they put in a week, time missed from spouse, kids, friends, etc. Working open to close several days a week, just to have a customer say "okay, is that your best price? thanks" then head across town and go to ABC Motors and say "can you beat this by a hundred bucks?" Again, if you haven't been there, you have no idea.

That is sooooooooooo not the customers concern or problem.

Think you missed that last statement. Also, what do you do for a living? Not being snarky here, but honestly, if say... half your clientele just walked out because they could save a buck at a crappier place across town, your business is nicer, staff friendlier, customer service better... but hey look at this dollar I saved! Something to ponder. Because, I'll let you in on something: those crappy dealers? They stay open because people want the "best price" which does not always mean the "best deal". They go to the place with the lowest price, get treated like crap, then complain that car salesmen are sleazy, slimy misbegotten wretches... meanwhile, across town, there's the other place, yes, the price might be a bit higher, but hey look- the guy that sold you your last car is a manager now, and remembers you. And they are actually here to take care of you, make sure you get a vehicle that works for you, give a crap and will be here when you're ready to trade it 3, 5, 7 years from now. But WAIT- you can get a "better deal" Joe McCrappy's place! Sure, they treat you like shiat, and the guy that sells you your new car knows nothing about it's equipment (he started last week and will be selling mattresses in six months because he couldn't cut it) but you got the BEST PRICE! Then when you realize how shiatty the service is, and they jacked you six ways to Sunday (or at least tried) you find an online forum to biatch about how we're all a steaming pile of crooks and thieves. Again, read that last comment- if you've never been in the business you have no idea. Thin of it as upscale version of waiting tables: it's the kind of thing you should actually have to *do* before you mock.

hej:Yellow Beard: To the poster that doesn't believe dealers work on 1% margins when selling new cars, I can assure you that is true. The profit center of any dealership is the service department.

What does this say about the viability of dealers who sell reliable cars with reasonable repair costs?

See previous commentary, but basically, the manufacturer makes their money first and foremost- the "cost" to a dealer is higher than what the manufacturer spends to build the car. So they're just fine. As far as the 1% thing, simply put it's because a customer will without hesitation hit up the three to five nearest dealers, try to get a price over the phone (and if you're not competitive you'll never get them in the door) and even if they do show up, and you take the time, provide good service, go over what they're looking for, etc. etc. etc. they will STILL march down the road to the next dealer and ask "can you beat this by a hundred bucks?" because anything resembling customer loyalty is gone. And there's always that one place, the rundown place in the bad part of town, where they gleefully whore out their vehicles because it's the only way to get you in the door. So, simply put, the customer wants a "good price" so much that they push the dealer to that 1% line- or worse at times.

hej:Yellow Beard: To the poster that doesn't believe dealers work on 1% margins when selling new cars, I can assure you that is true. The profit center of any dealership is the service department.

What does this say about the viability of dealers who sell reliable cars with reasonable repair costs?

New car dealers really aren't all that reasonable in their repairs. Typical labor rates in my area at new car dealers are $90+ per hour. A true "A" mechanic here averages about $20 per hour. Also don't forget about warranty work which even the best cars occasionally need. I can't speak to other franchises but at our Mitsubishi store in Philly, we got full labor rate plus we could mark up the parts 20% for all warranty claims.

Many people will only go to the dealer for service, even routine maintenance items. They are paying the bills at the dealership.

nolanomad:stonicus: nolanomad: As far as rearranging your schedule to find time to visit? Ask a salesman some time about the 50-60 hours they put in a week, time missed from spouse, kids, friends, etc. Working open to close several days a week, just to have a customer say "okay, is that your best price? thanks" then head across town and go to ABC Motors and say "can you beat this by a hundred bucks?" Again, if you haven't been there, you have no idea.

That is sooooooooooo not the customers concern or problem.

Think you missed that last statement. Also, what do you do for a living? Not being snarky here, but honestly, if say... half your clientele just walked out because they could save a buck at a crappier place across town, your business is nicer, staff friendlier, customer service better... but hey look at this dollar I saved! Something to ponder. Because, I'll let you in on something: those crappy dealers? They stay open because people want the "best price" which does not always mean the "best deal". They go to the place with the lowest price, get treated like crap, then complain that car salesmen are sleazy, slimy misbegotten wretches... meanwhile, across town, there's the other place, yes, the price might be a bit higher, but hey look- the guy that sold you your last car is a manager now, and remembers you. And they are actually here to take care of you, make sure you get a vehicle that works for you, give a crap and will be here when you're ready to trade it 3, 5, 7 years from now. But WAIT- you can get a "better deal" Joe McCrappy's place! Sure, they treat you like shiat, and the guy that sells you your new car knows nothing about it's equipment (he started last week and will be selling mattresses in six months because he couldn't cut it) but you got the BEST PRICE! Then when you realize how shiatty the service is, and they jacked you six ways to Sunday (or at least tried) you find an online forum to biatch about how we're all a steaming pile of crooks and thieves. A ...

And then you have dealers offering wholesale on your trade in when the NADA value is 3 times as much.

I bought a car last year, a new 2012 Mazda3 skyactive. When I asked the dealer to show me an offer he came back at full msrp. I just laughed and told him to try harder, there are half a dozen great cars in this sector and a few dealerships for each, my options are vast. I ended up getting a decent price on the car and a great price on my trade.

Girion47And then you have dealers offering wholesale on your trade in when the NADA value is 3 times as much

You could always try calling NADA or KBB and ask them to send you a check for the amount they say your car is worth.

There really are just 2 ways to buy a car when you have a trade; wholesale to wholesale (smart) or retail to retail (not so smart). You cannot honestly expect full retail for your trade when you are paying right at invoice (wholesale) for the new car.

nolanomad:Think you missed that last statement. Also, what do you do for a living? Not being snarky here, but honestly, if say... half your clientele just walked out because they could save a buck at a crappier place across town, your business is nicer, staff friendlier, customer service better... but hey look at this dollar I saved! Something to ponder. Because, I'll let you in on something: those crappy dealers? They stay open because people want the "best price" which does not always mean the "best deal".

Hmmm....sounds an awful lot like the way Wal-Mart runs their business. It's as if people place a lot of value on the bottom line cost of goods.

So....I'm sorry, what value are you providing along the way here, again?

Great Janitor:gingerjet: I can understand the idiotic laws around liquor sales because of the repeal of the 21st amendment But car sales? No. I should be able to drive my ass to any state, buy a car, and drive it back. But thanks to idiotic state laws, collusion, and outright threats - that isn't possible.

/also want to be able to buy a car on a fark'n sunday

I actually know why some lots are closed on Sundays. Well, some states say that car lots must be closed on Sundays, others, like Texas, says it has to be either Saturday or Sunday. The reason why is for the car salesman. If the lot wasn't forced to be closed at least one day a week, then most of the salesmen would be working open to close seven days a week.

Car sales is a weird industry. People only go to dealerships to buy cars, never because they have 30 minutes to spare. Most of the time buyers know what car they want to buy when they go to the dealerships (exception are used car lots where the inventory changes day to day). However, most car salesmen have a close ratio of less than 30%. Mathematically, you'd look at the number of salesmen on the lot, the number of customers who visit, and figure that each salesman is closing one sale a day, at least. But no. Part of it is car salesman who starts off with "Can I help you?" That phrase can instantly kill a sale. And the other part are customers who have an odd problem with car salesman. Which is really stupid. The customer goes to buy a car, runs into a car salesman and says "Just looking." or runs off when a car salesman approaches. That's no different than going to the doctor after breaking your arm, seeing the doctor walk into the examine room and saying "Oh, yeah, everything's okay, gotta go!" and leave the hospital. (and, by the way, while a car salesman really shouldn't say 'Can I help you?', a Doctor is there is actually help you, so they can say it and not sound stupid). And, by the way, a good salesman isn't going to lie to you because sale ...

Rolls eyes. Sorry, the salesmen that lie (and there are plenty of them) take a job at a new dealership all the time. I know one salesman who has stayed put for years; he was easy to deal with, and obviously lived on referrals. Most of the rest of the car salesmen I've encountered were only on the job a few months, and thought nothing of lying through their teeth.

Yellow Beard:Girion47And then you have dealers offering wholesale on your trade in when the NADA value is 3 times as much

You could always try calling NADA or KBB and ask them to send you a check for the amount they say your car is worth.

There really are just 2 ways to buy a car when you have a trade; wholesale to wholesale (smart) or retail to retail (not so smart). You cannot honestly expect full retail for your trade when you are paying right at invoice (wholesale) for the new car.

I went private sale and got a TON more money and I had the car sold within a week.

Girion47:Yellow Beard: Girion47And then you have dealers offering wholesale on your trade in when the NADA value is 3 times as much

You could always try calling NADA or KBB and ask them to send you a check for the amount they say your car is worth.

There really are just 2 ways to buy a car when you have a trade; wholesale to wholesale (smart) or retail to retail (not so smart). You cannot honestly expect full retail for your trade when you are paying right at invoice (wholesale) for the new car.

I went private sale and got a TON more money and I had the car sold within a week.

and that is the smartest thing to do with your trade. However, many don't want to go through that process.

Yellow Beard:Girion47: Yellow Beard: Girion47And then you have dealers offering wholesale on your trade in when the NADA value is 3 times as much

You could always try calling NADA or KBB and ask them to send you a check for the amount they say your car is worth.

There really are just 2 ways to buy a car when you have a trade; wholesale to wholesale (smart) or retail to retail (not so smart). You cannot honestly expect full retail for your trade when you are paying right at invoice (wholesale) for the new car.I went private sale and got a TON more money and I had the car sold within a week.

and that is the smartest thing to do with your trade. However, many don't want to go through that process.

We traded in a used VW New Beetle. 186,000 miles, no working AC, CEL, burned oil like a boss, airbag light on, key-chip dying, so you could never really be sure the immobilizer would let the car keep running...

I wouldn't have sold that car to my worst enemy; it was a ticking time-bomb. Mrs. Orange and I were shocked to get $1000 in trade for it, because it's pretty much scrap.

We ended up with a 2011 Civic LX-S, for $2000 under book value. Had fun playing Dealers off each other - at one point we (test) drove a 2010 in exactly the same color and trim to the dealer, we ended up buying from and told him that was what we were thinking about, but didn't tell him what the other guy's price was. So, we ended up saving a couple grand, on a year newer model with half the miles.

Girion47:Yellow Beard: markie_farkie: Yellow Beard: To the poster that doesn't believe dealers work on 1% margins when selling new cars, I can assure you that is true. The profit center of any dealership is the service department.

I call bullshiat on that..

EVERYBODY knows you people make a fortune selling upgrades, like floor mats, undercoating, and this stuff:

[kalecoauto.com image 400x300]

Lol, what do I know? I just do it for a living. One of the first questions that comes up when buying/selling a new car dealership is "what is the absorption rate" The AR is what percentage of the total nut for the store the service dept covers. A well run store has an AR above 80%. Although I am certain you know what you're talking about and must be correct.

Probably doing oil changes and brake pads right? That stuff is so simple I don't understand why most people don't do it themselves.

I installed one of these and it's even easier now.[madjackdiesel.com image 450x375]

It's a Fumoto oil valve for those of you that are curious, it replaces the nut you put in the bottom of your oil pan so you no longer have to worry about finding a socket big enough for the nut, stripping the head, having hot oil pour on you when taking it off, buying a new crush gasket every time you change the oil etc...

well done Mr Orange.Personally, we give you our best shot first time out of the gate. If you can find a better deal, god bless and best wishes but keep us in mind for the next one. Buying a car should be fun and if it seems like a hated job then find a different dealer regardless of the price. Apparently though there are still a lot of dealers out there that like the old 3 hour negotiation and 75 follow up calls.

Yellow Beard:well done Mr Orange.Personally, we give you our best shot first time out of the gate. If you can find a better deal, god bless and best wishes but keep us in mind for the next one. Buying a car should be fun and if it seems like a hated job then find a different dealer regardless of the price. Apparently though there are still a lot of dealers out there that like the old 3 hour negotiation and 75 follow up calls.

I quite enjoyed the experience. I dealt with half a dozen salesmen at as many Dealers, and can't say anything bad about any of them. They were helpful, and polite, but in the end only one can actually make the deal I want. Only two follow-up calls, and even they took the news respectfully, asking that we keep them in mind the next time.

I've always joked that my ideal retirement would be to be a Lexus salesman. Just be nice and friendly, selling a great product to people who know what they want.

nolanomad:1) yep, salesmen lie. you know who lies more? customers. Can't tell you how many times I had a customer (back when I was selling) say "Well we were just looking" and when I called to follow up the next day was told "oh we bought at XYZ dealership" oh well, go fark yourself.

Too bad. They obviously were looking, until they found something they wanted to know more about and/or buy. Did you really interpret their comment as meaning that they were just idling spending time looking at cars, with no intention to buy one?

2) better deal if you pay cash? hey the 80s called... we take deals that are so damn slim would make you wonder how we stay in business. I can say without hesitation or doubt that WEEKLY, we sell vehicles that are $50-60k and make a whopping 500-750 in profit. For those of you playing the home game, that's a 1% profit. Stop by your local grocer and tell them that you only want them to make 1% in profit. They will laugh their ass off. And probably throw something at you.

Frankly, I don't believe this. The numbers just don't work. Dealerships would have sell an astronomical number of cars just to keep the lights on and cover basic overhead. There are some dealers that do quite well, and there is no way they are doing it on $500 per car sold.

Sasquach:Girion47: Yellow Beard: markie_farkie: Yellow Beard: To the poster that doesn't believe dealers work on 1% margins when selling new cars, I can assure you that is true. The profit center of any dealership is the service department.

I call bullshiat on that..

EVERYBODY knows you people make a fortune selling upgrades, like floor mats, undercoating, and this stuff:

[kalecoauto.com image 400x300]

Lol, what do I know? I just do it for a living. One of the first questions that comes up when buying/selling a new car dealership is "what is the absorption rate" The AR is what percentage of the total nut for the store the service dept covers. A well run store has an AR above 80%. Although I am certain you know what you're talking about and must be correct.

Probably doing oil changes and brake pads right? That stuff is so simple I don't understand why most people don't do it themselves.

I installed one of these and it's even easier now.[madjackdiesel.com image 450x375]

It's a Fumoto oil valve for those of you that are curious, it replaces the nut you put in the bottom of your oil pan so you no longer have to worry about finding a socket big enough for the nut, stripping the head, having hot oil pour on you when taking it off, buying a new crush gasket every time you change the oil etc...

Man, those things are solutions just looking for a problem...

It isn't like the thing is exposed to the road, there's a cover over it.

nolanomad:See previous commentary, but basically, the manufacturer makes their money first and foremost- the "cost" to a dealer is higher than what the manufacturer spends to build the car. So they're just fine. As far as the 1% thing, simply put it's because a customer will without hesitation hit up the three to five nearest dealers, try to get a price over the phone (and if you're not competitive you'll never get them in the door) and even if they do show up, and you take the time, provide good service, go over what they're looking for, etc. etc. etc. they will STILL march down the road to the next dealer and ask "can you beat this by a hundred bucks?" because anything resembling customer loyalty is gone. And there's always that one place, the rundown place in the bad part of town, where they gleefully whore out their vehicles because it's the only way to get you in the door. So, simply put, the customer wants a "good price" so much that they push the dealer to that 1% line- or worse at times.

Is the "rundown place" offering rundown cars? Factory seconds?

New cars are fungible commodities. Is there some reason why a customer should pay you more for the same car? Because you have better coffee?

Yellow Beard:Apparently though there are still a lot of dealers out there that like the old 3 hour negotiation and 75 follow up calls.

You better believe there are.

Start with Rosenthal Nissan in Tysons Corner, VA as an example. Went there a number of years ago to look at a new Pathfinder and got the worst run around on pricing and laughed when they attempted to pull the "Well, here's a late model used one that's just as good as a new one you want, and we'll even price it a few hundred below the last price we quoted you on the new one" mess. My favorite was the "Dealer Adjustment Fee" - the rep explained that it was a special fee that was non-negotiable because it was the "cost of doing business here in an expensive place like Tysons Corner". Congratulations, moron...you gave me all the reason in the world to drive 8 miles to another Nissan dealer to buy the car I wanted.

Tried to leave the dealership and get the keys back for the vehicle I was considering trading in; despite politely requesting them from the sales rep and asst. manager for almost 15 mins, it took a loud, verbal confrontation with the sales manager (that was causing other customers to stop and look) to get any action. Fortunately, Mrs. Cashdaddy drove her car separately to the dealership, so she was able to leave and head home and not sit through the mess.

The icing on the cake: after the manager tried to get the keys back from the sales rep, he tried to get the rep to tell him where we were in the sales negotiation. The rep said something out loud like, "Naw, don't worry about this guy, boss. He's not serious about buying anything from us. He keeps trying to say that Pathfinders should be sold here for less than what's on the window." Took my keys and kept walking. The jackass sales rep actually called me the following Monday to ask me "where we were in our sales discussion", making sure to highlight the last (outrageously high) price he quoted me.

stewbert:Great Janitor: gingerjet: I can understand the idiotic laws around liquor sales because of the repeal of the 21st amendment But car sales? No. I should be able to drive my ass to any state, buy a car, and drive it back. But thanks to idiotic state laws, collusion, and outright threats - that isn't possible.

/also want to be able to buy a car on a fark'n sunday

I actually know why some lots are closed on Sundays. Well, some states say that car lots must be closed on Sundays, others, like Texas, says it has to be either Saturday or Sunday. The reason why is for the car salesman. If the lot wasn't forced to be closed at least one day a week, then most of the salesmen would be working open to close seven days a week.

Car sales is a weird industry. People only go to dealerships to buy cars, never because they have 30 minutes to spare. Most of the time buyers know what car they want to buy when they go to the dealerships (exception are used car lots where the inventory changes day to day). However, most car salesmen have a close ratio of less than 30%. Mathematically, you'd look at the number of salesmen on the lot, the number of customers who visit, and figure that each salesman is closing one sale a day, at least. But no. Part of it is car salesman who starts off with "Can I help you?" That phrase can instantly kill a sale. And the other part are customers who have an odd problem with car salesman. Which is really stupid. The customer goes to buy a car, runs into a car salesman and says "Just looking." or runs off when a car salesman approaches. That's no different than going to the doctor after breaking your arm, seeing the doctor walk into the examine room and saying "Oh, yeah, everything's okay, gotta go!" and leave the hospital. (and, by the way, while a car salesman really shouldn't say 'Can I help you?', a Doctor is there is actually help you, so they can say it and not sound stupid). And, by the way, a good salesman isn't going to lie to y ...

Rolls eyes. Sorry, the salesmen that lie (and there are plenty of them) take a job at a new dealership all the time. I know one salesman who has stayed put for years; he was easy to deal with, and obviously lived on referrals. Most of the rest of the car salesmen I've encountered were only on the job a few months, and thought nothing of lying through their teeth.

And that pretty much proves what I explained. Most people, especially those with no prior sales experience do not understand the referral business. They think that they can lie and cheat to sell a car, get away with it and do it again the next day. That is one reason why car sales has such a high turn over rate. The scummy ones that screw over customers for that commission check don't last long. Those who treat their customers right, don't lie, build rapport, listen to the customers to help them get into the cars that they want to have at a price they can afford are the ones who remain. And for every 10 that get hired on, one will last more than a year.

bikerific:nolanomad: See previous commentary, but basically, the manufacturer makes their money first and foremost- the "cost" to a dealer is higher than what the manufacturer spends to build the car. So they're just fine. As far as the 1% thing, simply put it's because a customer will without hesitation hit up the three to five nearest dealers, try to get a price over the phone (and if you're not competitive you'll never get them in the door) and even if they do show up, and you take the time, provide good service, go over what they're looking for, etc. etc. etc. they will STILL march down the road to the next dealer and ask "can you beat this by a hundred bucks?" because anything resembling customer loyalty is gone. And there's always that one place, the rundown place in the bad part of town, where they gleefully whore out their vehicles because it's the only way to get you in the door. So, simply put, the customer wants a "good price" so much that they push the dealer to that 1% line- or worse at times.

Is the "rundown place" offering rundown cars? Factory seconds?

New cars are fungible commodities. Is there some reason why a customer should pay you more for the same car? Because you have better coffee?

Coffee can be a factor. Maybe the Dealer is closer, and offers a shuttle service so that when your car is in for service, you don't have to take any time off. Maybe they're nicer about loaner cars, maybe they're more involved in the community through charities or sports... "Service" is more than just how well they fix your car, it's how well they treat you before, during, and after the sale. Some poeple value that, and some people don't.

cashdaddy:Yellow Beard:Apparently though there are still a lot of dealers out there that like the old 3 hour negotiation and 75 follow up calls.

You better believe there are.

Start with Rosenthal Nissan in Tysons Corner, VA as an example. Went there a number of years ago to look at a new Pathfinder and got the worst run around on pricing and laughed when they attempted to pull the "Well, here's a late model used one that's just as good as a new one you want, and we'll even price it a few hundred below the last price we quoted you on the new one" mess. My favorite was the "Dealer Adjustment Fee" - the rep explained that it was a special fee that was non-negotiable because it was the "cost of doing business here in an expensive place like Tysons Corner". Congratulations, moron...you gave me all the reason in the world to drive 8 miles to another Nissan dealer to buy the car I wanted.

Tried to leave the dealership and get the keys back for the vehicle I was considering trading in; despite politely requesting them from the sales rep and asst. manager for almost 15 mins, it took a loud, verbal confrontation with the sales manager (that was causing other customers to stop and look) to get any action. Fortunately, Mrs. Cashdaddy drove her car separately to the dealership, so she was able to leave and head home and not sit through the mess.

The icing on the cake: after the manager tried to get the keys back from the sales rep, he tried to get the rep to tell him where we were in the sales negotiation. The rep said something out loud like, "Naw, don't worry about this guy, boss. He's not serious about buying anything from us. He keeps trying to say that Pathfinders should be sold here for less than what's on the window." Took my keys and kept walking. The jackass sales rep actually called me the following Monday to ask me "where we were in our sales discussion", making sure to highlight the last (outrageously high) price he quoted me.

Yeah, the lousy salesmen and dealers are sti ...

I went to the Mazda/Toyota of Tyson's once. When we first walked in some African immigrant salesman grabbed us and berated us for not buying that day. "With 0 down, what's the difference, buy today" and he kept getting angrier and angrier that we weren't buying. When I finally asked him about the RX-8 I wanted to see he got extra pissed because he was Toyota only.

So we finally get to the Mazda side and get a sales guy, they have one RX-8 for us to test drive, and he couldn't tell us the trim level or anything about the car. We also test drove a Mazdaspeed 3, again, he knew nothing about the car and would only say "yeah, you like that?" when we did pulls during the test drive.(Another reason to order your car, people looking at anything race-like are going to beat the shiat out of the engine before it is out of it's break-in period). Anyways, he finally admitted he had only been there a month and didn't know any of the cars, so I ask to talk to his manager...It was his 3rd day on the job *facepalm*

My favorite dealer was Subaru of Alexandria, they had a guy that went on the test drive with you that wasn't on commission and could answer any question you had about the car, not only that he was able to tell me the comparable stats of all the other cars we were considering.

Girion47:Yellow Beard: markie_farkie: Yellow Beard: To the poster that doesn't believe dealers work on 1% margins when selling new cars, I can assure you that is true. The profit center of any dealership is the service department.

I call bullshiat on that..

EVERYBODY knows you people make a fortune selling upgrades, like floor mats, undercoating, and this stuff:

[kalecoauto.com image 400x300]

Lol, what do I know? I just do it for a living. One of the first questions that comes up when buying/selling a new car dealership is "what is the absorption rate" The AR is what percentage of the total nut for the store the service dept covers. A well run store has an AR above 80%. Although I am certain you know what you're talking about and must be correct.

Probably doing oil changes and brake pads right? That stuff is so simple I don't understand why most people don't do it themselves.

I installed one of these and it's even easier now.[madjackdiesel.com image 450x375]

It's a Fumoto oil valve for those of you that are curious, it replaces the nut you put in the bottom of your oil pan so you no longer have to worry about finding a socket big enough for the nut, stripping the head, having hot oil pour on you when taking it off, buying a new crush gasket every time you change the oil etc...

I couldn't see clearly, does that thing lock in place? I'd hate for a bouncing rock to knock that valve off its seat and drain my oil pan on the highway.

nolanomad:you know who lies more? customers. Can't tell you how many times I had a customer (back when I was selling) say "Well we were just looking" and when I called to follow up the next day was told "oh we bought at XYZ dealership" oh well, go fark yourself.

#1: If I ask for your best price and then go somewhere else, where they quote me a price less than yours, remind me again why I should bother calling you back to see if you can meet or beat it? You had a chance, and someone else offers the same thing for less? Sounds like a free market working to me.....sorry, pal - why is this an issue for me, again?

#2: If your attitude towards the person saying they bought at another dealership is "oh well, go fark yourself".... well, you're not doing much to help remove the stigma of the lousy car dealer, are you?

I don't care for an emotional connection with the person selling me a car. Belive me when I say that after I buy the car, I'm going to forget about you afterwards. It's a means of transportation, and it costs me money. I'm not looking for a friend or someone that I can nod and say hello to if I come back to the same dealership next time. All I want is the lowest price I can get for a vehicle that I want - period.

Tricky Chicken:Girion47: Yellow Beard: markie_farkie: Yellow Beard: To the poster that doesn't believe dealers work on 1% margins when selling new cars, I can assure you that is true. The profit center of any dealership is the service department.

I call bullshiat on that..

EVERYBODY knows you people make a fortune selling upgrades, like floor mats, undercoating, and this stuff:

[kalecoauto.com image 400x300]

Lol, what do I know? I just do it for a living. One of the first questions that comes up when buying/selling a new car dealership is "what is the absorption rate" The AR is what percentage of the total nut for the store the service dept covers. A well run store has an AR above 80%. Although I am certain you know what you're talking about and must be correct.

Probably doing oil changes and brake pads right? That stuff is so simple I don't understand why most people don't do it themselves.

I installed one of these and it's even easier now.[madjackdiesel.com image 450x375]

It's a Fumoto oil valve for those of you that are curious, it replaces the nut you put in the bottom of your oil pan so you no longer have to worry about finding a socket big enough for the nut, stripping the head, having hot oil pour on you when taking it off, buying a new crush gasket every time you change the oil etc...

I couldn't see clearly, does that thing lock in place? I'd hate for a bouncing rock to knock that valve off its seat and drain my oil pan on the highway.

It does, the valve screws in where your drain plug usually is, and the "handle" is a little metal tab that is held in place by a pretty strong spring in a notch, you have to pull on the tab and twist a quarter turn to open the valve.

Tricky Chicken:Girion47: Yellow Beard: markie_farkie: Yellow Beard: To the poster that doesn't believe dealers work on 1% margins when selling new cars, I can assure you that is true. The profit center of any dealership is the service department.

I call bullshiat on that..

EVERYBODY knows you people make a fortune selling upgrades, like floor mats, undercoating, and this stuff:

[kalecoauto.com image 400x300]

Lol, what do I know? I just do it for a living. One of the first questions that comes up when buying/selling a new car dealership is "what is the absorption rate" The AR is what percentage of the total nut for the store the service dept covers. A well run store has an AR above 80%. Although I am certain you know what you're talking about and must be correct.

Probably doing oil changes and brake pads right? That stuff is so simple I don't understand why most people don't do it themselves.

I installed one of these and it's even easier now.[madjackdiesel.com image 450x375]

It's a Fumoto oil valve for those of you that are curious, it replaces the nut you put in the bottom of your oil pan so you no longer have to worry about finding a socket big enough for the nut, stripping the head, having hot oil pour on you when taking it off, buying a new crush gasket every time you change the oil etc...

I couldn't see clearly, does that thing lock in place? I'd hate for a bouncing rock to knock that valve off its seat and drain my oil pan on the highway.

Snobby as it sounds, I've had nothing but positive experiences from the near-luxury dealerships (Acura, Infiniti, Lexus, BMW, etc). Even when I was young and looking for a used Integra, the Acura dealership was great. Copied my license, suggested a fun route to test drive on (don't speed *wink*), and that was it. They knew that there was a good chance of getting a customer for life; they were right.

The last few times I've been in a e.g. Pontiac/Ford/Toyota dealership, the experience was less pleasant. Maybe it's the different clientele, but the difference is very noticeable. Just based on those experiences, I'd rather buy the cheapest Acura than the most expensive Honda.

cashdaddy:nolanomad:you know who lies more? customers. Can't tell you how many times I had a customer (back when I was selling) say "Well we were just looking" and when I called to follow up the next day was told "oh we bought at XYZ dealership" oh well, go fark yourself.

#1: If I ask for your best price and then go somewhere else, where they quote me a price less than yours, remind me again why I should bother calling you back to see if you can meet or beat it? You had a chance, and someone else offers the same thing for less? Sounds like a free market working to me.....sorry, pal - why is this an issue for me, again?

#2: If your attitude towards the person saying they bought at another dealership is "oh well, go fark yourself".... well, you're not doing much to help remove the stigma of the lousy car dealer, are you?

I don't care for an emotional connection with the person selling me a car. Belive me when I say that after I buy the car, I'm going to forget about you afterwards. It's a means of transportation, and it costs me money. I'm not looking for a friend or someone that I can nod and say hello to if I come back to the same dealership next time. All I want is the lowest price I can get for a vehicle that I want - period.

Then by all means, go to the one that had a drive-by in front of it last week, that closes at sundown, and will forget you exist after the purchase. In the mean time, we'll take care of our customers, provide shuttle service, loaners, good service, and hey did you know- sometimes, if you build that relationship, the dealer will give you discounts on future visits? No, of course you didn't because you have no clue what a business relationship means.

Incidentally, the whole "fark yourself" thing (which I did not say, just thought, I do have a few manners) was more of being told "Don't worry, Mr. Nolanomad, we'll be sure to follow up with you before we make a decision" and then them buying elsewhere thing. So, in short got lied to by customer (surprise). But hey, go get your "great deal"- and enjoy the colorful neighborhood while you're at it.

nolanomad:cashdaddy: nolanomad:you know who lies more? customers. Can't tell you how many times I had a customer (back when I was selling) say "Well we were just looking" and when I called to follow up the next day was told "oh we bought at XYZ dealership" oh well, go fark yourself.

#1: If I ask for your best price and then go somewhere else, where they quote me a price less than yours, remind me again why I should bother calling you back to see if you can meet or beat it? You had a chance, and someone else offers the same thing for less? Sounds like a free market working to me.....sorry, pal - why is this an issue for me, again?

#2: If your attitude towards the person saying they bought at another dealership is "oh well, go fark yourself".... well, you're not doing much to help remove the stigma of the lousy car dealer, are you?

I don't care for an emotional connection with the person selling me a car. Belive me when I say that after I buy the car, I'm going to forget about you afterwards. It's a means of transportation, and it costs me money. I'm not looking for a friend or someone that I can nod and say hello to if I come back to the same dealership next time. All I want is the lowest price I can get for a vehicle that I want - period.

Then by all means, go to the one that had a drive-by in front of it last week, that closes at sundown, and will forget you exist after the purchase. In the mean time, we'll take care of our customers, provide shuttle service, loaners, good service, and hey did you know- sometimes, if you build that relationship, the dealer will give you discounts on future visits? No, of course you didn't because you have no clue what a business relationship means.

Incidentally, the whole "fark yourself" thing (which I did not say, just thought, I do have a few manners) was more of being told "Don't worry, Mr. Nolanomad, we'll be sure to follow up with you before we make a decision" and then them buying elsewhere thing. So, in short got lied to by cust ...

Being martyrs in front of your co-workers is probably great for you to vent, but doing it online? You're only making the impression of dealers worse.

Girion47:nolanomad: cashdaddy: nolanomad:you know who lies more? customers. Can't tell you how many times I had a customer (back when I was selling) say "Well we were just looking" and when I called to follow up the next day was told "oh we bought at XYZ dealership" oh well, go fark yourself.

#1: If I ask for your best price and then go somewhere else, where they quote me a price less than yours, remind me again why I should bother calling you back to see if you can meet or beat it? You had a chance, and someone else offers the same thing for less? Sounds like a free market working to me.....sorry, pal - why is this an issue for me, again?

#2: If your attitude towards the person saying they bought at another dealership is "oh well, go fark yourself".... well, you're not doing much to help remove the stigma of the lousy car dealer, are you?

I don't care for an emotional connection with the person selling me a car. Belive me when I say that after I buy the car, I'm going to forget about you afterwards. It's a means of transportation, and it costs me money. I'm not looking for a friend or someone that I can nod and say hello to if I come back to the same dealership next time. All I want is the lowest price I can get for a vehicle that I want - period.

Then by all means, go to the one that had a drive-by in front of it last week, that closes at sundown, and will forget you exist after the purchase. In the mean time, we'll take care of our customers, provide shuttle service, loaners, good service, and hey did you know- sometimes, if you build that relationship, the dealer will give you discounts on future visits? No, of course you didn't because you have no clue what a business relationship means.

Incidentally, the whole "fark yourself" thing (which I did not say, just thought, I do have a few manners) was more of being told "Don't worry, Mr. Nolanomad, we'll be sure to follow up with you before we make a decision" and then them buying elsewhere thing. So, in short got lied ...

Martyr might be a strong word... it's just sad that people go for the "best price", end up at a place that can only sell by price, because they aren't good enough to sell by product and quality, so of *course* they're the cheap place so they can get you in and then screw you- and so, by extension, all dealers and car salespeople are slime. It's quite the leap. Imagine if what you do for a living was reviled and mocked, despite the fact that none of the stereotypes apply. You'd get annoyed too.

nolanomad:Girion47: nolanomad: cashdaddy: nolanomad:you know who lies more? customers. Can't tell you how many times I had a customer (back when I was selling) say "Well we were just looking" and when I called to follow up the next day was told "oh we bought at XYZ dealership" oh well, go fark yourself.

#1: If I ask for your best price and then go somewhere else, where they quote me a price less than yours, remind me again why I should bother calling you back to see if you can meet or beat it? You had a chance, and someone else offers the same thing for less? Sounds like a free market working to me.....sorry, pal - why is this an issue for me, again?

#2: If your attitude towards the person saying they bought at another dealership is "oh well, go fark yourself".... well, you're not doing much to help remove the stigma of the lousy car dealer, are you?

I don't care for an emotional connection with the person selling me a car. Belive me when I say that after I buy the car, I'm going to forget about you afterwards. It's a means of transportation, and it costs me money. I'm not looking for a friend or someone that I can nod and say hello to if I come back to the same dealership next time. All I want is the lowest price I can get for a vehicle that I want - period.

Then by all means, go to the one that had a drive-by in front of it last week, that closes at sundown, and will forget you exist after the purchase. In the mean time, we'll take care of our customers, provide shuttle service, loaners, good service, and hey did you know- sometimes, if you build that relationship, the dealer will give you discounts on future visits? No, of course you didn't because you have no clue what a business relationship means.

Incidentally, the whole "fark yourself" thing (which I did not say, just thought, I do have a few manners) was more of being told "Don't worry, Mr. Nolanomad, we'll be sure to follow up with you before we make a decision" and then them buying elsewhere thing. So, in shor ...

Why wouldn't I go for price? Your shop certainly isn't the place I'm going to be using, I'm going to do the maintenance on my own unless it is warranty work, and then the Manufacturer is going to be paying for that repair. So as far as I can tell, price is what the deciding factor is.

Great Janitor:Babwa Wawa: Great Janitor: That's no different than going to the doctor after breaking your arm, seeing the doctor walk into the examine room and saying "Oh, yeah, everything's okay, gotta go!" and leave the hospital.

Imma go on a limb and say that's a really stupid analogy. The idea that I need a car salesman as much as I need a doctor when I've got a broken arm... That I can't look at cars on a car lot without the "assistance" of a salesperson. Well, hell, I don't even know how to express how dumb that idea is.

The role of the salesman, or at least the way I do it, I make it clear that I am there to answer all their questions about the car, if I don't know the answer I will find out with them there. I'm also the their liaison to the person who can finalize the deal and to do everything I can to make sure that they leave with the car that they love. And I make it crystal clear from the start "If you do not love this car, let me know now and I won't waste our time working out a deal. Instead we will go back and find a car that you do love."

Great Janitor: And, by the way, a good salesman isn't going to lie to you because sales is a referral business.

Oh that's just horseshiat. First, 50% of the employees you see at a dealership will not be there the next year (http://ezinearticles.com/?High-Employee-Turnover&id=3126149). Even if you buy a car every two f*cking years, chances are you're not going to buy it from the same guy.

And I'm going to go on a limb and say that nobody has ever - EVER - told me, "you've gotta see my guy Steve up at the Ford dealer. He'll get you a solid deal, yessirree!" That's absurd. This isn't Mayberry. The dealer and sales guy knows that they will very likely never see you again and will thus bilk you out of as much money as possible while you're in front of them.

The idea that a car salesman has any compunction about lying to you is ridiculous and contrary to nearly everyone's experience.

One reason why dealerships hav ...

quick question, are part-time salemen a thing? I'm getting out of the military sometime soon on a medical retirement, and would like to find a part-time job. But I don't want to put in six 10 hour days. I like to haggle, and I figure if I don't *need* to make a sale, I won't be stressed, and could probably do better.

wingnut396:meanmutton: RandomRandom: How are these state laws not a violation of the commerce clause of the Constitution?

Why have the auto manufacturers never challenged them in court? ...or have they?

For the first one: states can regulate commerce within their borders.

For the second, I'm surprised that even in Michigan, where the US auto industry in based, the cart dealers have traditionally had this much power. GM, Ford, and Chrysler must have wanted this setup, for done reason.

From what I've read around the tubes is that the dealership pain in the ass experience is due to the manufacturers being greedy. See you are not really the manufacturer's customer, the dealership is. What the manus used to do is push whatever inventory they had to the dealers. That way the manus had a steady stream of buyers no matter if cars were selling or not. Some dealer going down, slow with payments, well let some other rube start up a new dealership and he can buy the inventory rolling off the assembly line.

So dealers had to band together to avoid being steamrolled by their suppliers that forced them to buy inventory that was not selling or they did not want.

Of course the market as evolved sine way back when, but the current dealer/manufacturer setup is still a remnant of that.

I'd like to see Tesla's model take off for new cars. Go to a few specialized company owned show rooms where you can make an appointment to test drive models you care to see. Check everything out. If you like, order it directly from the manufacturer. Since dealers sometimes say they make more money on service, franchise out warranty service to businesses that want to maintain the cars but not sell them. If that is where the real money is, instead of warehousing inventory for Chevy, then go for it.

Used car lots will still be around, but you only need to look at something like CarMax to see how that is changing. Hit up their site and you have a huge inventory to look at. If they don't have the car l ...

So when Tesla starts to sell lots of cars over the internet, directly from California into states in which Tesla has absolutely no presence, won't the local dealers (or the state governments as their proxy) litigate or regulate against Tesla?

If and when this litigation/ regulation occurs, it would seem to be a textbook example of a constitutional commerce clause violation. That being, the state would be giving preferential treatment to local state businesses over equivalent businesses in other states.

RandomRandom:wingnut396: meanmutton: RandomRandom: How are these state laws not a violation of the commerce clause of the Constitution?

Why have the auto manufacturers never challenged them in court? ...or have they?

For the first one: states can regulate commerce within their borders.

For the second, I'm surprised that even in Michigan, where the US auto industry in based, the cart dealers have traditionally had this much power. GM, Ford, and Chrysler must have wanted this setup, for done reason.

From what I've read around the tubes is that the dealership pain in the ass experience is due to the manufacturers being greedy. See you are not really the manufacturer's customer, the dealership is. What the manus used to do is push whatever inventory they had to the dealers. That way the manus had a steady stream of buyers no matter if cars were selling or not. Some dealer going down, slow with payments, well let some other rube start up a new dealership and he can buy the inventory rolling off the assembly line.

So dealers had to band together to avoid being steamrolled by their suppliers that forced them to buy inventory that was not selling or they did not want.

Of course the market as evolved sine way back when, but the current dealer/manufacturer setup is still a remnant of that.

I'd like to see Tesla's model take off for new cars. Go to a few specialized company owned show rooms where you can make an appointment to test drive models you care to see. Check everything out. If you like, order it directly from the manufacturer. Since dealers sometimes say they make more money on service, franchise out warranty service to businesses that want to maintain the cars but not sell them. If that is where the real money is, instead of warehousing inventory for Chevy, then go for it.

Used car lots will still be around, but you only need to look at something like CarMax to see how that is changing. Hit up their site and you have a huge inventory to look at. If they don't ha ...

Don't most states collect sales tax on cars when you register not when you buy? The place I've lived/bought cars from have all worked that way so I don't know if it is universal or just certain states. I don't see why states would care if I bought a car from a dealership two states over or online. They still get their cut.

Carth:Don't most states collect sales tax on cars when you register not when you buy? The place I've lived/bought cars from have all worked that way so I don't know if it is universal or just certain states. I don't see why states would care if I bought a car from a dealership two states over or online. They still get their cut.

Because local car dealers are tremendously influential in local politics. There are a lot of local legislators that are/were car dealers or have car dealer friends/families who've bankrolled their political careers. Local car dealers have used this outsized political influence to create an environment they prefer, at great expense to the average car buyer.

It's straight up protectionism, something that the constitution was designed to prevent, at least as it regards domestic US transactions.

Girion47:Why wouldn't I go for price? Your shop certainly isn't the place I'm going to be using, I'm going to do the maintenance on my own unless it is warranty work, and then the Manufacturer is going to be paying for that repair. So as far as I can tell, price is what the deciding factor is.

No, you're absolutely right, I see the error of my ways.

Oh hey, theoretical situation for you... you buy your car, save the few extra bucks, get the best deal... six months down the road there's a recall, the dealer has to have your vehicle overnight. You going to go back to that crime-ridden neighborhood and hope they have a loaner for you? Somehow I doubt it, you'd go to a place where you weren't concerned about random bullets.... and hey, that's us. However, a Mr. Jones got here at the same time with the same recall. Problem is, I only have one loaner... and Mr. Jones bought his last 5 vehicles here. One guess who gets that loaner.

nolanomad:Martyr might be a strong word... it's just sad that people go for the "best price", end up at a place that can only sell by price, because they aren't good enough to sell by product and quality, so of *course* they're the cheap place so they can get you in and then screw you- and so, by extension, all dealers and car salespeople are slime. It's quite the leap. Imagine if what you do for a living was reviled and mocked, despite the fact that none of the stereotypes apply. You'd get annoyed too.

If I'm getting the price I wanted to pay for the vehicle in the first place, then I'm getting what I feel is the best value for my money and I fail to see how I'm getting screwed.

You keep mentioning a "business relationship". Like I said earlier, I don't give a popsicle titty-fark about starting a relationship with you or anyone else in the building. If you can sell me a car at the price I want, then you have a deal; otherwise, yeah - I'll keep looking until I find one that can or adjust my expectations accordingly.

(As for being reviled and mocked for what I do for a living? Pal, I work in the energy industry for one of the large oil companies....believe me, I'm hated, reviled, blamed, and loathed by everyone, including you guys at the dealerships. Difference is, I don't get annoyed about it.)

RandomRandom:Carth: Don't most states collect sales tax on cars when you register not when you buy? The place I've lived/bought cars from have all worked that way so I don't know if it is universal or just certain states. I don't see why states would care if I bought a car from a dealership two states over or online. They still get their cut.

Because local car dealers are tremendously influential in local politics. There are a lot of local legislators that are/were car dealers or have car dealer friends/families who've bankrolled their political careers. Local car dealers have used this outsized political influence to create an environment they prefer, at great expense to the average car buyer.

It's straight up protectionism, something that the constitution was designed to prevent, at least as it regards domestic US transactions.

Don't know where you're getting your information, or perhaps things are REALLY corrupt where you are... but here, if they purchase and title it in State, sales tax and fees are handled by us 99% of the time. If it's titled out of state, it's generally up to the customer to go to their local DMV and handle it themselves. YMMV.

cashdaddy:nolanomad:Martyr might be a strong word... it's just sad that people go for the "best price", end up at a place that can only sell by price, because they aren't good enough to sell by product and quality, so of *course* they're the cheap place so they can get you in and then screw you- and so, by extension, all dealers and car salespeople are slime. It's quite the leap. Imagine if what you do for a living was reviled and mocked, despite the fact that none of the stereotypes apply. You'd get annoyed too.

If I'm getting the price I wanted to pay for the vehicle in the first place, then I'm getting what I feel is the best value for my money and I fail to see how I'm getting screwed.

You keep mentioning a "business relationship". Like I said earlier, I don't give a popsicle titty-fark about starting a relationship with you or anyone else in the building. If you can sell me a car at the price I want, then you have a deal; otherwise, yeah - I'll keep looking until I find one that can or adjust my expectations accordingly.

(As for being reviled and mocked for what I do for a living? Pal, I work in the energy industry for one of the large oil companies....believe me, I'm hated, reviled, blamed, and loathed by everyone, including you guys at the dealerships. Difference is, I don't get annoyed about it.)

fair enough. as to business relationship see my comment just above yours.

Yeah. I'll continue to avoid buying a GMC or Buick from you and continue servicing my car at the place that usually has 100-150 loaner cars available in their pool so that it's not an issue (ref: Pohanka Acura in northern VA. Sales staff was so-so, bought the car out of state from another dealer anyways because he had a price that couldn't be beat, but had it serviced at Pohanka because of their loaner car availability and late night service hours)

nolanomad:Girion47: Why wouldn't I go for price? Your shop certainly isn't the place I'm going to be using, I'm going to do the maintenance on my own unless it is warranty work, and then the Manufacturer is going to be paying for that repair. So as far as I can tell, price is what the deciding factor is.

No, you're absolutely right, I see the error of my ways.

Oh hey, theoretical situation for you... you buy your car, save the few extra bucks, get the best deal... six months down the road there's a recall, the dealer has to have your vehicle overnight. You going to go back to that crime-ridden neighborhood and hope they have a loaner for you? Somehow I doubt it, you'd go to a place where you weren't concerned about random bullets.... and hey, that's us. However, a Mr. Jones got here at the same time with the same recall. Problem is, I only have one loaner... and Mr. Jones bought his last 5 vehicles here. One guess who gets that loaner.

Seeing any value yet, bright boy?

Not really, my wife would be following along in our other car and I'd leave with her, I work from home so I don't really need my vehicle that often.