On a purely selfish note, as I'm heading down to the Point over Easter, I'd appreciate if anything that makes the "new" Point Perp guide inaccurate to be posted up somewhere on Chocky. Sure we'll have trad racks but it's nice to have minimal surprises...

Neil, I challenge you to lead that whole list with just quickdraws......should be fun!

Dunc Hunter has demonstrated how to establish bolted routes at the point without pissing people off. I.e., miles from any trad routes, spaced bolts, and there are minimal oportunities for trad gear on those routes anyway. Notice how his route next to Sail the Nullabor is a mixed route?

On 6/03/2013 BundyBear wrote:>why has "Turning of the Tide" not chopped. Its advertised at a RETRO>bolted route

Bundy, if Turning of the Tide pisses you off so much, go chop the bolts yourself. If your brain is unable to process the idea that those bolts are being allowed to stay but we're not going to let you squeeze a bunch of loweroff sport routes all over the wall, that's your problem.

>Bundy, if Turning of the Tide pisses you off so much, go chop the bolts>yourself. If your brain is unable to process the idea that those bolts>are being allowed to stay but we're not going to let you squeeze a bunch>of loweroff sport routes all over the wall, that's your problem.

I dont have a problem with it at all, i dont have a problem with Rick's routes either (including SSSS). Send Rick a textie and get the real reason why SSSS was created and I think you will be with me on this one...

I would appreciate the chopper contact Rick and explain his/her actions.

But yes, I agree the place should not be gridded with a million squeeze sports routes...

>If you don't want to name names I'd still be interested to know the size>of the membership (do you pay fees? What's required to join?)

It's a bit like Al Qaeda.......or maybe a One Direction fan club. Bunch of people who have similar ideas but operate in disconnected cells. For example, I have no idea who chopped SSSS, but I do know 4 people who were talking about doing it and were pipped by someone. You want to join DCA? Go chop some gratuitous bolts somewhere, it's fun and easy, anyone can do it. We have a t shirt available.......really :)

I'd say its more like a mysterious and shadowy amalgamation of utter bastards who show no pity or remorse as they ride across the lands, doing donuts in hotted up Datsuns and laying waste to entire civilisations in a basically haphazard and random manner (plus chopping the odd bolt or two when it suits and they can be bothered).

I can get you a t-shirt if you want (my cousin's mate's footy coach went to high school with one of them... apparently).

On 6/03/2013 uwhp510 wrote:>I'd say its more like a mysterious and shadowy amalgamation of utter bastards>who show no pity or remorse as they ride across the lands, doing donuts>in hotted up Datsuns and laying waste to entire civilisations in a basically>haphazard and random manner (plus chopping the odd bolt or two when it>suits and they can be bothered).

Now we are talking. If only I still had my 1600...

PS. Noted your user name using the US name for that model. Would love to import and restore the two door that never came to Australia.

On 6/03/2013 One Day Hero wrote:>On 6/03/2013 ratherbeclimbinV9 wrote:>>>If you don't want to name names I'd still be interested to know the size>>of the membership (do you pay fees? What's required to join?)>>It's a bit like Al Qaeda.......or maybe a One Direction fan club. Bunch>of people who have similar ideas but operate in disconnected cells. For>example, I have no idea who chopped SSSS, but I do know 4 people who were>talking about doing it and were pipped by someone. You want to join DCA?>Go chop some gratuitous bolts somewhere, it's fun and easy, anyone can>do it. We have a t shirt available.......really :)

On 5/03/2013 nmonteith wrote:>>Why wasn't Mussell Beach chopped back in the day? Surely this was a travesty>in the eyes of the chosen few?

Just got back to my old guidebook to check up on Neil's bullshit. My old guide lists 21 routes at Mussel Beach, with the intro "...the closest thing The Point offers to a sport crag". Of the 21 routes, the guidebook specifically mentions taking natural gear in 16 of the route descriptions. That means that only 25% of the routes were pure sport routes..........which is consistent with the ethic of not placing bolts next to good natural placements!

On 7/03/2013 One Day Hero wrote:>Just got back to my old guidebook to check up on Neil's bullshit. My old>guide lists 21 routes at Mussel Beach, with the intro "...the closest thing>The Point offers to a sport crag". Of the 21 routes, the guidebook specifically>mentions taking natural gear in 16 of the route descriptions. That means>that only 25% of the routes were pure sport routes..........which is consistent>with the ethic of not placing bolts next to good natural placements!

I have spoken to both Damo and Rick and the others about this and thie issue seems to be not the establishment of new routes, but the new lines over the top of established ones. There is no reason why these two styles of routes cant exist side by side in harmony and in fact they have done so already for many years at Pt Perp.

I had an interesting conversation recently trying to explain the Australian Version of trad climbing to a pommy. Ie gear where possible and a carrot to reduce near death runouts! In the UK trad is trad, wires, cams or nout. Try stopping mid crux on a E7 to place a No 1 RP. A hernia inducing experience not to be missed by anyone, placing gear mid crux an experience you must have once in your climbing career .

I bolted a new, reasonably hard and long project down there last week. A long way from anything else and had to use alot more sky hooks to drill than made me comfortable way above the sea as the gear that I was hoping would be there was non existant, the breaks visible from the bottom turned out to be closed!!!!!.

I always find the varied takes on "ethics" interesting, if sometimes ever so slightly onanistic. None of these bolting "discussions" ever seem to go anywhere really, other than to expose the differences between these "ethical" stances - in fact, they seem to polarise opinion, rather than shaping a consensus.

That said - Matt, I'm interested in why you'd drill bolts from hooks (rather than rap-bolting), which as you point out is scary, potentially dangerous, and perhaps less likely to result in the optimum bolt placements? Do you have a strict ground-up ethic? If so, do you see the ethical plus of the ground-up nature of your bolting outweighing the "aid" aspect of drilling from hooks? Just interested, certainly not criticising and have no axe to grind.