The first season of the RPS Frozen Synapse league has finished, and season 2 will kick off next week. New participants are encouraged to sign up (as are the players from season 1, of course) whether you're a grizzled old bastard or entirely new to the game. In essence, if you own Frozen Synapse then sign yourself up.

If you're like to join in, please add yourself to this spreadsheet (https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0AvmG4SoJhEYbdFgtbjN3VFE4OUxQTEtSLWVoVmJGX 3c&hl=en_GB#gid=4). You will probably need to play between 6 and 10 matches in a two-week period, starting next Monday, so don't sign up if you're about to go on holiday for a fortnight. It would also be useful if you could PM me your email address so that I can give you a nudge if you're running out of time to take your turns.

I have as usual overextended myself and haven't set out all the rules yet. But in a nutshell: all games will be Dark Extermination mode (i.e. you need to kill the other player's men before he/she kills yours, and you can only see the enemy players if you have line of sight) on symmetrical maps. Detailed rules will follow later this week.

That's all for now; go and sign up (https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0AvmG4SoJhEYbdFgtbjN3VFE4OUxQTEtSLWVoVmJGX 3c&hl=en_GB#gid=4)!

measurements

24-08-2011, 08:45 AM

Whooo! Many thanks to WombatDeath for his work making this happen, thoroughly enjoy the last Season. Also here be youtube videos (http://www.youtube.com/user/RockPaperSynapse) run by ColOfNature. Or you can replay any match in game with the search and six digit game number.

Web Cole

24-08-2011, 01:59 PM

Indeed, many thanks to Wombat for organising everything and hopefully we can have a bigger and altogether more bad-ass season 2 :D

WombatDeath

24-08-2011, 11:01 PM

We have fifteen players signed up for season 2 so far, which is a good start, but I'd like a few more.

If you're new to the game, sign up! We're friendly and we don't bite (we just hurl lethal munitions at each other in enclosed spaces). The rules are straightforward, there are plenty of people to help out if you need assistance, and it's a great way of getting more experience.

If you're an experienced player, sign up! Someone needs to beat Circle at some point.

And if you're somewhere in the middle, sign up - the more the bloodier!

imirk

24-08-2011, 11:24 PM

count me in as cannon fodder. pew pew pew

DWZippy

25-08-2011, 03:11 AM

I want to get in on this, but I'll be away 29th-8th

Can I play my games around then?

Du3lingDragon

25-08-2011, 05:30 PM

Count me in

WombatDeath

25-08-2011, 07:34 PM

I want to get in on this, but I'll be away 29th-8th

Can I play my games around then?
You're going to be away for almost the entire duration of the season, so I'm afraid that's not going to work this time. Join in season 3 after you get back!

WombatDeath

25-08-2011, 07:35 PM

Excellent, we've got nineteen players for season 2. One more to balance the divisions would be splendid, if anyone would like to take the plunge?

DWZippy

25-08-2011, 07:45 PM

I will do! :D

Joseph

26-08-2011, 11:56 AM

Just signed up! Missed the last league so now is my time to shine :D

WombatDeath

28-08-2011, 11:12 PM

Season 2 has now begun! We have three divisions, so thanks to all those who've signed up. You can now start issuing challenges and playing your matches - click here to see the league tables (https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0AvmG4SoJhEYbdFgtbjN3VFE4OUxQTEtSLWVoVmJGX 3c&hl=en_GB#gid=6).

Important: each player has the responsibility of challenging every player above him/her in the appropriate division. That means that, for instance, cimethink in division three has to issue five challenges: to mdean, airtekh, echodb, imirk and Du3lingDragon. Crakker, in division one, only has to issue one challenge (to circle2).

If you are unsure who you should be challenging, look at the second tab on the spreadsheet. You need to issue a challenge for each game in which you are Player 1. If you're still unsure, post in this thread or send me a PM.

Game rules and league procedures

1) Each game must conform to the following settings:

Mode: Dark Elimination
Map type: symmetrical
Turn limit: eight turns
Turn duration: five seconds per turn (i.e. 5000 milliseconds - this is the default setting)
Visibility: vis at time zero
Team strength: three or four men per player (the same for each player, of course)
Server: UK1

Any game that does not conform to these rules will be void and must be replayed. Please see the next post if you're not sure how to create a game with the correct settings, and post in this thread if you are in any doubt.

2) After creating each game on server UK1, the challenger must state the challenge in this thread. Format: "[Player1] has challenged [Player2] in game [game ID]".

3) After each game has been completed, the player accepting the challenge must report the result in this thread. Standard format: "[Victorious player] has defeated [defeated player] in game [game ID] by [number of men killed by victorious player] men to [number of men killed by defeated player]".

In the event of a draw, the format is "[Challenging player] and [challenged player] have drawn in game [game ID], killing [number of men killed per player] men each."

I will update the spreadsheet with the result.

4) Challengers may start issuing their challenges from today (Sunday 28th August). All games must be completed by the end of Sunday 11th September, British Summer Time.

5) We're all reasonable people, probably, so some flexibility will be applied. If you're going to be on holiday, or dead, or otherwise restricted in your availability, please post in this thread and we will try to accommodate you as far as is reasonably practical.

6) Try to start your games in the first week and finish them early. Players leaving it to the last minute to issue a challenge or submit orders risk forfeiting the game. If any game is unfinished by the deadline I will use my discretion and award points to one, both or neither player, depending on the circumstances.

7) At the end of the season the top three players in each of divisions 2 and 3 will be promoted to the division above. The bottom three players in each of divisions 1 and 2 will be relegated to the division below.

8) Any circumstances not catered for in these rules will be handled according to some combination of common sense, consensus, whimsy and iron-fisted authoritarianism.

Finally, someone added 'mrpharmacist' to the sign-up sheet but there is nobody registered on the forum with that name. If this is you, please let me know and I will add you back into the table.

Good luck!

WombatDeath

28-08-2011, 11:15 PM

How to create a game with the correct settings

This may be useful to those newer to Frozen Synapse:

1) Log in to server UK1.
2) Click the 'Multiplayer' button at the top of the screen
3) Click 'Create a game'
4) Set the game mode to Dark Extermination
5) Click the 'Advanced setup' button
6) Ignore the scary warning and click 'OK'
7) Click the 'Generate symmetrical' button
8) If you get a silly map, or if you don't have three or four men per side, go back to (7) and repeat until you're happy
9) Click the 'Submit' button
10) Ensure that the 'Game mode' is set to 'Extermination'
11) Ensure that the 'Vis mode' is set to 'Vis at time zero'
12) Ensure that the 'Turn limit' is set to 8 (and the 'Turn length' to 5000, which is the default)
13) Enter your opponent's username
14) Enter 'RPS Dark Extermination League' or something suitable so that your opponent knows it's for this league
15) Click the 'Submit' button
16) Take your first turn and note the challenge in this thread, using the format in point 2 of the post directly above this one.

imirk

29-08-2011, 12:27 AM

imirk has challenged mdean in game 253781
imirk has challenged airtekh in game 253791
imirk has challenged echodb in game 253797

airtekh

29-08-2011, 11:57 AM

airtekh has challenged mdean in game 254309

CMaster

29-08-2011, 12:46 PM

CMaster has challenged ChainsawHands in game 254348
CMaster has challenged WombatDeath in game 254355
CMaster has challenged Roarster in game 254359
CMaster has challenged SFLegend in game 254363

Most of the games I've thought at least a bit about tactics and tried to predict what opponents might do. The WombatDeath game however is just going to be a pure crapshoot.

Web Cole

29-08-2011, 01:21 PM

Woo, good luck everybody :)

Web_cole challenges Crakker in game 254328

Web_cole challenges circle2 in game 254622

SF Legend

29-08-2011, 02:24 PM

SFLegend has challenged ChainsawHands in game 254446
SFLegend has challenged WombatDeath in game 254449
SFLegend has challenged Roarster in game 254450

CMaster

29-08-2011, 06:02 PM

The match between myself and SFLegend is already shaping up to be a pretty interesting one. Bullets flying everywhere and last minute dodges galore.

Jolima

29-08-2011, 06:34 PM

Jolima has challenged CMaster in game 254759.
Jolima has challenged Roarster in game 254754.
Jolima has challenged WombatDeath in game 254751.
Jolima has challenged ChainsawHands in game 254749.
Jolima has challenged SFLegend in game 254743.

SF Legend

29-08-2011, 07:02 PM

The match between myself and SFLegend is already shaping up to be a pretty interesting one. Bullets flying everywhere and last minute dodges galore.
It's very tense, though I think you've gained the upper hand.

EDIT:
Jolima has defeated SFLegend in game 254743 by 4 men to 1

WombatDeath

29-08-2011, 08:11 PM

WombatDeath has defeated SFLegend in game 254449 by 4 men to 2.

Great tense game with a bizarre and very funny stand-off in turn 4.

measurements

29-08-2011, 09:31 PM

I'm way too burned out right now to do all six challenges but I'll get on it early this week. As it stands:
Measurements has challenged Circle2 in game 254970
Measurements has challenged Crakker in game 255035 and I couldn't even get a first turn done in that one.

I think I'm going to get rinsed like a toothbrush in this season. Routinely.

Yeah, I'm not funny.

circle

29-08-2011, 11:02 PM

Oh my. I think Measurements might get the honour of being the first to defeat me. Took out my SG and MG with one nicely placed rocket. Just has to hunt down my Rocket man now...

WombatDeath

29-08-2011, 11:05 PM

Jolima has smashed WombatDeath in game 254751 by 4 men to 2, the bastard.

imirk

29-08-2011, 11:08 PM

Oh my. I think Measurements might get the honour of being the first to defeat me. Took out my SG and MG with one nicely placed rocket. Just has to hunt down my Rocket man now...

That should energize him for the rest of his challenges!

SF Legend

29-08-2011, 11:10 PM

CMaster has defeated SFLegend in game 254363 by 4 men to 2

Jolima

29-08-2011, 11:10 PM

Jolima has smashed WombatDeath in game 254751 by 4 men to 2, the bastard.
3 to 2 actually I think, since one of yours survived until the time limit.

Thanks for the game. (And to the other's I've played so far.)

WombatDeath

29-08-2011, 11:12 PM

WombatDeath has defeated CMaster in game 254355 by 4 men to 0.

WombatDeath

29-08-2011, 11:12 PM

3 to 2 actually I think, since one of yours survived until the time limit.

Thanks for the game. (And to the other's I've played so far.)
Ooops, yes, good point.

CMaster

29-08-2011, 11:16 PM

Jolima has defeated CMaster in game 254759 by 4 kills to 2
Thought this one was going to be close, but it all went wrong on turn 2 for me.And the "crap shoot" game against WombatDeath I clearly lost from the first turn. Ah well, nature of the map I guess.

Wolfenswan

29-08-2011, 11:25 PM

antilope has challenged Crakker in game 255211
antilope has challenged circle2 in game 255214
antilope has challenged Web_cole in game 255216

WombatDeath

29-08-2011, 11:55 PM

WombatDeath has challenged ChainsawHands in game 255243.

circle

30-08-2011, 12:18 AM

Oh my. I think Measurements might get the honour of being the first to defeat me. Took out my SG and MG with one nicely placed rocket. Just has to hunt down my Rocket man now...

Oy... self fulfilling prophecy. I had originally typed Web Cole but edited it. Looks like it's Web Cole who does it first!

Web_cole has defeated circle2 in game 254622 4/4 men to 1/4.

airtekh

30-08-2011, 01:15 PM

airtekh has defeated imirk in game 253791 by 3 men to 0.

My first game, and my first win, yay! I always panic when I haven't laid eyes on an enemy during a game. Had to resort to spamming rockets in his general direction. Sorry imirk!

Much thanks to WombatDeath for organising all this, you're a credit to the community.

I've just made some observations about the league structure that might be considered for a subsequent season:

1) At the moment we are given a choice about whether to start each match with 3 or 4 men. Wouldn't this have an effect on the GD ratio?

On average, if you're playing mostly matches with 4 men on your side then wouldn't you end up with a higher GD than a player who played mostly 3 men a side? Having all matches start with the same number of men would solve this.

2) Also, having three people promoted and relegated from each division seems to me to be one too many, given the size of the leagues. As it stands, Division 2 would consist of one old player and six new players in a subsequent season.

I suppose it freshens things up in that you're always playing different players, but I'd be slightly concerned if I felt I was being promoted/relegated too fast.

Just my two cents.

echodb

30-08-2011, 02:19 PM

echodb has challenged mdean in game 255940

echodb

30-08-2011, 02:32 PM

echodb has challenged airtekh in game 255953

WombatDeath

30-08-2011, 02:53 PM

I've just made some observations about the league structure that might be considered for a subsequent season:

1) At the moment we are given a choice about whether to start each match with 3 or 4 men. Wouldn't this have an effect on the GD ratio?

On average, if you're playing mostly matches with 4 men on your side then wouldn't you end up with a higher GD than a player who played mostly 3 men a side? Having all matches start with the same number of men would solve this.

2) Also, having three people promoted and relegated from each division seems to me to be one too many, given the size of the leagues. As it stands, Division 2 would consist of one old player and six new players in a subsequent season.

I suppose it freshens things up in that you're always playing different players, but I'd be slightly concerned if I felt I was being promoted/relegated too fast.

Congratulations on your first victory!

Regarding your first point, I touched on that in the season 1 thread (http://www.rockpapershotgun.com/forums/showthread.php?720-Frozen-Synapse-Dark-Elimination-event&p=29822&viewfull=1#post29822):

What do you all think about the number of men? I'm inclined to the view that each match can have 3 or 4 per side: it makes game creation a bit easier and perhaps provides a bit more variety. There's a theoretical chance that someone could game the system towards the end of a season where goal difference is a promotion/relegation factor, but I suspect that's going to be a pretty rare scenario.

Since the GD could count for or against you, depending on who wins the match, I don't think it's a major issue.

As for your second point, you may be right. I picked the top/bottom three for promotion/relegation to make sure that we each have new opponents each season, and to give new players the opportunity to get to the top quickly. Short seasons make it easy to move up or down swiftly, but I must admit that I hadn't really considered the possibility that it might piss people off.

As always, everything is up for discussion, and thanks to airtekh for providing feedback (keep it coming). What do the rest of you think about these points?

Joseph

30-08-2011, 03:56 PM

Joseph has challenged cimethink in game 255999
Joseph has challenged Du3lingDragon in game 256006
Joseph has challenged imirk in game 256018
Joseph has challenged echodb in game 256048
Joseph has challenged airtekh in game 256056
Joseph has challenged mdean in game 256060

Let it begin :D

ascagnel

30-08-2011, 04:34 PM

ascagnel has challenged circle2 in game 256062
ascagnel has challenged Crakker in game 256067
ascagnel has challenged Web_cole in game 256069
ascagnel has challenged antilope in game 256072

WombatDeath

30-08-2011, 06:19 PM

Oy... self fulfilling prophecy. I had originally typed Web Cole but edited it. Looks like it's Web Cole who does it first!

Web_cole has defeated circle2 in game 254622 4/4 men to 1/4.
Well done Web Cole! That deserves some sort of prize. (You won't get one, but you can have the inner warmth which comes from knowing that you deserve one).

CMaster

30-08-2011, 07:33 PM

Circle is currently ranked number 7 globally, so you should feel pretty smug I guess.

Web Cole

30-08-2011, 07:44 PM

Well done Web Cole! That deserves some sort of prize. (You won't get one, but you can have the inner warmth which comes from knowing that you deserve one).

Circle is currently ranked number 7 globally, so you should feel pretty smug I guess.

I was fairly shitting that game, so yes I felt pretty good about winning it.

I doff my Internet Hat to a most worthy and gentlemanly opponent :)

WombatDeath

30-08-2011, 08:08 PM

I'd like to remind everyone that there is a youtube channel (http://www.youtube.com/user/RockPaperSynapse), run by the splendid ColOfNature, which hosts many of our FS matches. There aren't any season 2 matches up there yet but hopefully Col will be able to upload them over the next couple of weeks, and if not I'll try to figure out how to do it.

Please let Col or me know if you have a favourite match from the league (or from Inverselaw's tournament, if you're in that) that you'd like to show off.

ColOfNature

30-08-2011, 08:18 PM

Ohai. Been away for a while, and then I got Borderlands so that ate the weekend. Will issue my challenges tonight or in the morning, and I'll get that there YouTube up to date tomorrow.

WombatDeath

30-08-2011, 08:25 PM

<3

Feel free to accidentally forget to upload the matches that I've lost. I just made the mistake of watching my season 1 game versus Roarster, and now I'm considering punching myself in the crotch to distract myself from the horror.

Web Cole

30-08-2011, 09:06 PM

Web_cole has defeated ascagnel in game 256069 by 3/3 men to 0/3 men

gg :)

imirk

30-08-2011, 09:11 PM

Web_cole is Dominating!

WombatDeath

30-08-2011, 09:29 PM

MMMMMMONSTER KILL!

(3 points for the reference)

ascagnel

30-08-2011, 09:40 PM

Web_cole has defeated ascagnel in game 256069 by 3/3 men to 0/3 men

gg :)

I thought this was a 4-man game.

That first turn could be summed up in a single word: BOOM.

Roarster

30-08-2011, 10:38 PM

Roarster has challenged ChainsawHands in game 256536
Roarster has challenged WombatDeath in game 256540

I've accidentally created another game against ChainsawHands (256530) but it should be obvious it's the wrong one since it's not a symmetrical map.

echodb

31-08-2011, 08:36 AM

echodb has defeated Joseph in game 256048 by 4 men to 1

airtekh

31-08-2011, 12:01 PM

airtekh has defeated Joseph in game 256056 by 4 men to 1.

We might need an arbiter for the game between airtekh and echodb. The game declared me as the winner but it could also be a draw, because a superbly placed grenade shot from echodb killed my last two guys after I killed his grenadier. What's the procedure for this? It's game number 255953.

echodb

31-08-2011, 12:14 PM

airtekh has defeated Joseph in game 256056 by 4 men to 1.

We might need an arbiter for the game between airtekh and echodb. The game declared me as the winner, but a superbly placed grenade shot from echodb killed my last two guys after I killed his grenadier. What's the procedure for this? It's game number 255953.

Hehe, ye, had to check twice to make sure that actually happened in the end :D

As far as i am concerned though, you won it fairly, albeit painfully :P. I'm not sure how often this scenario occurs, there might be space in the league rules for future tournaments, on the other hand it may just complicate things a tad :)

ColOfNature

31-08-2011, 12:24 PM

ColOfNature has challenged:

circle2 in match 257094
Crakker in match <del>257096</del> 257113 (the first one had a bloke trapped in a box!)
Web_cole in match 257097
antilope in match 257098
ascagnel in match 257099

WombatDeath

31-08-2011, 12:32 PM

We might need an arbiter for the game between airtekh and echodb. The game declared me as the winner, but a superbly placed grenade shot from echodb killed my last two guys after I killed his grenadier. What's the procedure for this? It's game number 255953.
I seem to remember that happening in season 1, and I decided that we will use the official game verdict to avoid squabbles when something detonates in the final few milliseconds. How many points did you get for the victory?

airtekh

31-08-2011, 12:41 PM

Not quite sure what you mean by 'points'.

On my match history for that game, under 'score' it says -40, whatever that means.

imirk

31-08-2011, 02:20 PM

imirk has defeated Joseph in game 256018 3/4 mans to 0/4 mans

Fumarole

31-08-2011, 03:54 PM

cimethink has challenged mdean in game 257233
cimethink has challenged echodb in game 257241
cimethink has challenged airtekh in game 257248
cimethink has challenged imirk in game 257256
cimethink has challenged Du3lingDragon in game 257264

Fumarole

31-08-2011, 03:58 PM

We might need an arbiter for the game between airtekh and echodb. The game declared me as the winner but it could also be a draw, because a superbly placed grenade shot from echodb killed my last two guys after I killed his grenadier. What's the procedure for this? It's game number 255953.

It would seem that the grenade detonated after turn 8 (I haven't watched the replay, but I've seen this before). If your units have orders beyond turn 8 they'll often still carry them out (for instance a grenade or rocket still traveling, or a movement order a unit didn't complete) even though the server has already declared a victor (or a draw) at the conclusion of (in this case) turn 8.

ascagnel

31-08-2011, 04:50 PM

circle2 has defeated ascagnel in game 256062 1/3 to 0/3

circle

31-08-2011, 04:54 PM

circle2 has defeated ascagnel in game 256062 3/3 men to 2/3

Another close match. Again I lost two units right off the start.

edit* oh sure rob me of my sole duty of posting the results. I think one of us is posting the men wrong. Is it men killed or men left standing?

CMaster

31-08-2011, 04:58 PM

This is why I always say "kills" rather than "men" which I always thought was pretty confusing. Should be "shapeforms" anyway.

WombatDeath

31-08-2011, 05:21 PM

Yes, "kills" would be better; noted for next time. For now, I don't really mind what format people use as long as the GD is correct.

imirk

31-08-2011, 07:15 PM

huh whups then, I killed 4 of josephs men and he one of mine.

ChainsawHands

31-08-2011, 08:31 PM

Jolima has defeated ChainsawHands in game 254749 by 4/4 to 2/4.

Jolima

31-08-2011, 09:24 PM

Jolima has defeated ChainsawHands in game 254749 by 4/4 to 2/4.
In a single intensive round even.

Unless Roarster pulls of a miracle win from being down to 1 vs 4 I'm at 5 wins in 5 games. Only the challenge from ComradePenguin remaining. That's quite a difference from last season. I wonder how much difference the privilege of selecting the map really does. I've rerolled until I found some that I thought would be fun and interesting, but maybe those just happen to be the kind that I play best at.

(Figured I'd get my bragging in while I can before moving up to the higher division. ;-) )

WombatDeath

31-08-2011, 10:35 PM

I wonder how much difference the privilege of selecting the map really does.
That's a very good question. I've just had a quick count of the season 1 results (remember that season 1 started with completely arbitrary rankings) and the challengers won 23 matches and lost 19 (with 3 draws). So based on that admittedly small sample it looks as though the challenger may have a minor advantage, which is not surprising.

Roarster

31-08-2011, 11:10 PM

Unless Roarster pulls of a miracle win...

No such luck, well done mate, it went completely wrong for me in the second round.

Jolima has defeated Roarster in game 254724 by 4 to 0.

CMaster

31-08-2011, 11:26 PM

ARRGGHHH!
In my game against chainsaw hands, I waas just about to set a unit as "continue on sight" thought, "nah, won't be necessary" - and of course not setting it lost me a unit!

CMaster

31-08-2011, 11:31 PM

Simple solution to any challenger advantage - and handily also stops any confusion over who is challenging who - is to simply have everyone challenge everyone.

Roarster

31-08-2011, 11:32 PM

WombatDeath has defeated Roarster in game 256540 by 4 to 1.

Another loss for me, lost nearly my entire squad in the first round again. Not sure how much longer I can blame the symmetrical maps for my ineptitude...

ComradePenguin

01-09-2011, 01:00 AM

ComradePenguin has challenged ChainsawHands in game 257892.

I'll issue a few more challenges tomorrow.

zuddy

01-09-2011, 01:19 AM

JosephLittle has defeated mdean by 4/4 men to 0/4 in game 256060
airtekh has defeated mdean by 3/3 men to 0/3 in game 254309
imirk has defeated mdean by 3/3 men to 2/3 in game 253781

to the bottom!

echodb

01-09-2011, 02:40 PM

imirk and echodb have drawn in game 253797, killing 2 men each.

WombatDeath

01-09-2011, 06:54 PM

imirk and echodb have drawn in game 253797, killing 2 men each.
I enjoyed the different escapes by each of your machine gunners on the first turn, after which things started to drag somewhat ;)

imirk

01-09-2011, 09:19 PM

So If I kill my own shapforms can I win more points? :P

Joseph

01-09-2011, 11:03 PM

Lost three matches and won 2, now I'm waiting on Du3lingDragon.
Been great games so far :)

imirk

02-09-2011, 02:08 AM

cimethink has defeated imirk in game 257256 4/4 to 2/4
GG

echodb

02-09-2011, 08:27 AM

I enjoyed the different escapes by each of your machine gunners on the first turn, after which things started to drag somewhat ;)

ye, totally, after my less than stellar performances in other games so far, I've decided to shelf gung-ho mode :P

measurements

02-09-2011, 07:25 PM

That should energize him for the rest of his challenges!

You have no idea how true this is. Truth be told I've been crazy busy this week and it looks to continue in the weekend and next week. Plus am I sick and tired of playing this game one handed (remember that broken arm?). This kind of turn one could convince me to stick around (I realise I have four games to get started).

Talking of first turns: Does anyone else think it's a complete chance game? Assuming you have the technical requirements of the orders down, it's just a toss up if they take route a or route b, for example? Is this punishingly skill based game actually hiding a big portion of luck?

Fumarole

02-09-2011, 07:58 PM

Talking of first turns: Does anyone else think it's a complete chance game? Assuming you have the technical requirements of the orders down, it's just a toss up if they take route a or route b, for example? Is this punishingly skill based game actually hiding a big portion of luck?Nothing about this game is randomly determined. What exactly do you mean by route A and B?

imirk

02-09-2011, 08:01 PM

Well when I win it is skill, losing however is just bad luck :P

Maybe we need a malevolent Diety such as Nuffle to blame our misery on and bask in his capricious glow.

I think it is largly skill and prediction what seems like luck is always the other player's choice.

Fumarole

03-09-2011, 02:19 AM

cimethink has defeated imirk in game 257256 4/4 to 2/4
GGThis was actually 4-1 in my favor, not 4-2.

Fumarole

03-09-2011, 02:37 AM

Joseph has defeated cimethink 4-2 in match 255999 with a superbly placed grenade that killed three of my guys.

ComradePenguin

03-09-2011, 02:59 PM

ComradePenguin has challenged WombatDeath in game 261090.
ComradePenguin has challenged Roarster in game 261109.

CMaster

03-09-2011, 03:14 PM

Seeing as it seems he well never post the results:

CMaster has deafeated Roarster in game 254394 by 4 kills to 1.

zuddy

03-09-2011, 03:26 PM

mdean has defeated echodb in game 255940 by 3/3 men to 0/3

As an aside, does anyone know if there's an easier way to check the match number than by going to main menu -> my profile -> match history?

airtekh

03-09-2011, 03:59 PM

airtekh has defeated cimethink in game 257248 by 2 kills to 1

An incredibly boring game I'm afraid. Apologies again to cimethink for my excessive camping. My only excuse is the makeup of the teams; I let out a groan when I first loaded the map and saw we had four machinegunners each.

WombatDeath

03-09-2011, 06:37 PM

WombatDeath has defeated ComradePenguin in game 261090 by 3 kills to 1.

ComradePenguin

03-09-2011, 06:41 PM

ComradePenguin has challenged SFLegend in game 261319.

WombatDeath

03-09-2011, 06:45 PM

WombatDeath has defeated ChainsawHands in game 255243 by 4 kills to 0.

WombatDeath

03-09-2011, 06:58 PM

We're at the half-way point and divisions 2 and 3 are making good progress, but division 1 appears to have gone on holiday. Could those of you with turns to play let me know when you think you'll be able to make them, please?

ComradePenguin

03-09-2011, 08:04 PM

Think there's a slight error with the spreadsheet. I've got 2 losses on it but I've only completed the game against WombatDeath. I'm sure the 4-0 thumping is coming shortly but best not to jump the gun.

EDIT: ComradePenguin has challenged CMaster in game 261424.

WombatDeath

03-09-2011, 09:56 PM

Think there's a slight error with the spreadsheet. I've got 2 losses on it but I've only completed the game against WombatDeath. I'm sure the 4-0 thumping is coming shortly but best not to jump the gun.
Right you are, though I'd chalk it up to my incompetence rather than any kind of prediction. Fixed!

Please could each player check your own results and make sure that your score is correct (let me know if I've made any other mistakes).

WombatDeath

03-09-2011, 10:02 PM

Also, I recommend that you all join Inverselaw's FS tournament (http://www.rockpapershotgun.com/forums/showthread.php?1215-Fall-Synapse-Double-Elimination-tournament%21) if you haven't already. I believe it was Jesus who said "A man cannot live on Dark Extermination alone".

ascagnel

04-09-2011, 12:35 AM

We're at the half-way point and divisions 2 and 3 are making good progress, but division 1 appears to have gone on holiday. Could those of you with turns to play let me know when you think you'll be able to make them, please?

I'm currently on holiday (there's a holiday weekend in the US right now), but right now I don't have any pending turns.

Half of my games haven't had a full turn yet, sadly.

CMaster

04-09-2011, 01:08 AM

EDIT: ComradePenguin has challenged CMaster in game 261424.

I'm guessing you didn't simulate that first turn before submitting...

ComradePenguin

04-09-2011, 02:25 AM

I'm guessing you didn't simulate that first turn before submitting...

Worryingly I did and completely failed to notice it happening. Second turn was hardly brilliant either.....

ComradePenguin

04-09-2011, 12:17 PM

ComradePenguin has challenged Jolima in game 262294. Think I just about avoided killing my own men this time.

Jolima

04-09-2011, 12:44 PM

ComradePenguin has defeated Jolima in game 262294 by 3 kills to 1.

measurements

04-09-2011, 12:57 PM

We're at the half-way point and divisions 2 and 3 are making good progress, but division 1 appears to have gone on holiday. Could those of you with turns to play let me know when you think you'll be able to make them, please?

Yeah, I have to start 6 of the 28 games for division one and I've been dragging my heels. I'll try and deal with the remaining challenges today.

Measurements has challenged Web_cole in game 262311

CMaster

04-09-2011, 01:01 PM

CMaster has defeated ComradePenguinin game 261424 by 3 kills to 2

circle

04-09-2011, 03:27 PM

Measurements has defeated Circle2 in game 254970 with 3 men killed to 1 man killed out of 3 men

I wonder how much difference the privilege of selecting the map really does.

I think it can make a difference, but only by allowing the challenger to pick the starting conditions. Say I feel I'm no good with Grenades, if I challenge, I pick a set up with out Grenades and it makes me more likely to do well than if I had accepted a challenge and had no choice but to try and make use of a Grenade unit.

The advantage is more luck based in if you can pick a set up you are more comfortable with but will somehow be less comfortable for your opponent. However this advantage is almost meaningless to a well rounded player since everything is symmetrical.

Talking of first turns: Does anyone else think it's a complete chance game? Assuming you have the technical requirements of the orders down, it's just a toss up if they take route a or route b, for example?

Depends on how you play. It should not matter what way they go if you are playing wisely. The toss up happens when people rush games. When the opponent messages me to hurry up, I usually know I will end up wining that match. Another clear sign is when I get messages "oh you're a thinking player eh?". I think I get lucky a lot. Losing is because of bad decisions I make, rushing in blindly, or being greedy and trying to go for the elimination bonus.

Roarster

04-09-2011, 04:18 PM

Seeing as it seems he well never post the results:

CMaster has deafeated Roarster in game 254394 by 4 kills to 1.

Sorry, today was the first I'd played in a few days so I'd no idea I'd actually lost. I could see it coming though...

measurements

04-09-2011, 05:06 PM

Measurements has challenged Antilope in game 262499
Measurements has challenged Ascagnel in game 262557 ... But has yet to figure out what his starting move will be.

Measurements is a tard.

ChainsawHands

04-09-2011, 05:37 PM

CMaster has defeated ChainsawHands by 4/4 to 3/4 in game 254348.

CMaster

04-09-2011, 06:31 PM

Sorry, today was the first I'd played in a few days so I'd no idea I'd actually lost. I could see it coming though...

Ah sorry. Had it in my head you'd taken the last turn and I'd just viewed it. Also occurs to me to apologies for the use of a gendered known there without knowing either way.

CMaster has defeated ChainsawHands by 4/4 to 3/4 in game 254348.

Phew, so I did get that shot off, despite getting 2 of my units killed in stupid ways (1st MG, 1st SG). Also losing the last one through impatience.

Well, think I'm done for this seasons, so "GG" all, was fun.

SF Legend

04-09-2011, 07:32 PM

SFLegend has defeated ComradePenguin by 4/4 to 1/4 in game 261319.

Roarster

04-09-2011, 11:38 PM

SFLegend has defeated Roaster in game 254450 by 4 kills to 2.

Actually hit a bug in this game where it was missing the last position of one of the opposing players so I was fairly surprised when my rocket launcher was shot in the back by a machine gunner I didn't even know existed. Ah well, it's continued my run of bad form.

All because I failed to set an ignore order. Go watch for yourself. It's horrible.

Measurements has challenged ColofNature in game 264057

Web Cole

05-09-2011, 09:14 PM

Web_cole has defeated ColOfNature in game 257097 4 kills to 1 kill.

gg, another interesting game, I got dead lucky with that SG vs SG kill! Been a really competitive season for me so far, loving it :) The only game I'm waiting on now is antilope, who has challenged me but not submitted a first turn.

circle

05-09-2011, 09:53 PM

circle2 has defeated ColOfNature in match 257094, 3 men killed to 1 man killed out of 3.

ChainsawHands

05-09-2011, 10:07 PM

Roarster has defeated ChainsawHands by 4/4 to 2/4 in game 256536.

Roarster

05-09-2011, 11:19 PM

Roarster has defeated ComradePenguin by 3/3 kills to 1/3 in game 261109.

That's the last of my games - thanks again for organising all of this.

ChainsawHands

06-09-2011, 12:30 AM

SFLegend has defeated ChainsawHands by 4/4 to 3/4 in game 254446.

WombatDeath

06-09-2011, 12:43 AM

Depends on how you play. It should not matter what way they go if you are playing wisely. The toss up happens when people rush games. When the opponent messages me to hurry up, I usually know I will end up wining that match. Another clear sign is when I get messages "oh you're a thinking player eh?". I think I get lucky a lot. Losing is because of bad decisions I make, rushing in blindly, or being greedy and trying to go for the elimination bonus.
I haven't nearly as much experience as some of you, but to me the first turn feels lucky. While it's obviously not a complete crapshoot I often find myself picking semi-randomly from a set of seemingly reasonable opening moves that my opponent might make, and whether or not they pick that opening is out of my control. A good example is my game against Roarster (256540) which felt as though all my birthdays had come at once: I'd love to say that I got inside his head, but in all honesty I wouldn't have been at all surprised if he'd done something completely different.

I don't know. On balance I'd say that at my level, once you assume that your opponent is reasonably competent it comes down to a fairly even ratio of skill to luck. I expect the skill factor becomes more predominant with you high-level players. In any case, the nice thing about this sort of event is that the luck factor tends to even out over time.

circle

06-09-2011, 01:06 AM

circle2 has defeated antilope in game 255214, 2 men to 0 men out of 4 men.

Web Cole

06-09-2011, 09:46 AM

I haven't nearly as much experience as some of you, but to me the first turn feels lucky. While it's obviously not a complete crapshoot I often find myself picking semi-randomly from a set of seemingly reasonable opening moves that my opponent might make, and whether or not they pick that opening is out of my control. A good example is my game against Roarster (256540) which felt as though all my birthdays had come at once: I'd love to say that I got inside his head, but in all honesty I wouldn't have been at all surprised if he'd done something completely different.

I don't know. On balance I'd say that at my level, once you assume that your opponent is reasonably competent it comes down to a fairly even ratio of skill to luck. I expect the skill factor becomes more predominant with you high-level players. In any case, the nice thing about this sort of event is that the luck factor tends to even out over time.

What I tend to do is try and work out all the possible starting moves, and then do something that leaves me as safe as I can be whilst still trying to put my opponent off balance in some way and set myself up positioning wise. Oh, and get vision; knowing where your opponent is, is paramount imo. But if all my guys are alive after the first turn I consider that a success, and if I kill an enemy that's a bonus.

One thing I have noticed is that if you simulate mirror moves on the first turn, the challenger always seems to win. Anyone else come across that?

measurements

06-09-2011, 08:25 PM

I might be giving away trade secrets of some sort but from what I can tell with aiming web_cole: Angle matters. Whenever I simulate MG versus MG coming around a corner from matched starting positions I can make almost entirely certain that my guy will win that fire fight. Same with Shotguns. Maybe this isn't as true as I like to think but my simulations have been much more favourable since I picked up on aiming angle being a determining factor.

Incidentally, although not my duty I can report on mine and Peter Radiator Full Pig's match.

Crakker Aerated Measurements in game 255035, killing all three men while losing none whatsoever.

If you want to see a game where someone is basically inside my head, this would do it. I mean at the end of turn four your machine gunner runs forwards. Forwards into shotgun territory? That takes way too many balls. It's like you know that I won't charge you because of the range you supposedly have on my SG. And on the penultimate turn you just make me look stupid. I thought that was a fairly unexpected broad run from my last man standing but apparently it was old hat, obvious and lackadaisical.

Wolfenswan

07-09-2011, 01:32 AM

circle2 has defeated antilope in game 255214, 2 men to 0 men out of 4 men.

i totally didn't see that one pixelspot from where you got my two men. after that the game was over. good job.

WombatDeath

07-09-2011, 02:11 AM

We're entering the home stretch! Division 3 is awaiting the result of mdean vs. cimethink; division 2 the result of ComradePenguin vs. ChainsawHands; and division 1 more results than I have the time to type out.

Please could those of you who have pending turns post in this thread to let us know when you think that you'll be able to make them. And please could those of you who are waiting on another player also post in this thread so that I know where the hold-ups are (division 3 players can assume that Du3lingDragon is MIA, so ignore those matches).

zuddy

07-09-2011, 03:59 AM

Oops, with uni and everything I completely forgot about my match with cimethink. I should have a first move submitted by the end of tomorrow night (CDT). Sorry!

ChainsawHands

07-09-2011, 10:19 AM

It'll be Thursday night before I can play another turn.

Web Cole

07-09-2011, 12:02 PM

Like I said before I'm still waiting on antilope (Wolfenswan).

ComradePenguin

07-09-2011, 12:25 PM

It'll be Thursday night before I can play another turn.

On that basis I'll report that Chainsaw Hands beat ComradePenguin by 4/4 kills to 2/4 in game 257892.

How are we going to separate me and Chainsaw Hands for the coveted wooden spoon given we have the same kill difference? I guess he goes above me on more kills achieved?

measurements

07-09-2011, 01:17 PM

Okay I think Ascagnel was meant to report this (and I'm doing this from work so - from memory) but
Measurements exploderised Ascagnel in game 262557 killing all three men and losing one in the crossfire.

I have two games to conclude - ColofNature is waiting for me to do turn 2 of our game, which looks set to be super cool, and I am looking forward to getting home and seeing what Antilope chose to do in turn 3/4 (can't recall).

zuddy

08-09-2011, 05:16 AM

Big surprise, cimethink defeated mdean in game 257233 by killing 4/4 men while losing 0/4 of his own.

imirk

08-09-2011, 04:18 PM

Oh dear, this means that I will be promoted :O, oh well you cannot get better if you do not play against better opponents.

WombatDeath

08-09-2011, 06:03 PM

How are we going to separate me and Chainsaw Hands for the coveted wooden spoon given we have the same kill difference? I guess he goes above me on more kills achieved?
Oooh, I hadn't really considered that. But yes, we'll use total kills as the tie-breaker.

imirk

08-09-2011, 06:07 PM

Oooh, I hadn't really considered that. But yes, we'll use total kills as the tie-breaker.

That seems like a good balance to trying to game the system by playing only 3 man games.

Peter Radiator Full Pig

08-09-2011, 10:54 PM

I might be giving away trade secrets of some sort but from what I can tell with aiming web_cole: Angle matters.

If you want to see a game where someone is basically inside my head, this would do it. I mean at the end of turn four your machine gunner runs forwards. Forwards into shotgun territory? That takes way too many balls. It's like you know that I won't charge you because of the range you supposedly have on my SG. And on the penultimate turn you just make me look stupid. I thought that was a fairly unexpected broad run from my last man standing but apparently it was old hat, obvious and lackadaisical.

Angle doesnt matter. If you are in line of sight, the time it takes to turn to your opponent is merely animation. The kill counter starts the second someone is in Los and in range, except if you have been ducking or standing (Delays o.5 seconds, I believe)
The amount of time you have been aiming does matter, if all other things are equal. Ive seen this play out on symmetrical maps quite a bit.

As for our match, I thought you did quite well, except for the fact you kept your SG back. I ran forward, because I spotted your SG not moving on the top right. I thought it unlikely to be a wait order, there was no reason to wait there. So, if you had charged across, MG would of still gotten you.
Penultimate turn I just though, what would I do? Also, had the mg covering the top, sg covering the middle places (Standing, so you couldnt get the drop) so that just left the broad run. Lucky that I judged the distance right.
If you want to see a good grenade that wins again, look at my latest match versus ColOfNature. Pure hilarious, and alot of luck.

measurements

10-09-2011, 11:27 AM

As for our match, I thought you did quite well, except for the fact you kept your SG back...

I think I always keep my SG back. It seems to be the lesson for me to take from this season (that and ignore orders).

If you want to see a good grenade that wins again, look at my latest match versus ColOfNature. Pure hilarious, and alot of luck.

I'm getting some popcorn (or cookies, really) and sitting back to watch this season and last all at once for funsies. At some point.

ColOfNature

10-09-2011, 01:16 PM

If you want to see a good grenade that wins again, look at my latest match versus ColOfNature. Pure hilarious, and alot of luck.
Hah, yes. I swore a blue streak when that happened.

WombatDeath

10-09-2011, 01:18 PM

Any progress in division 1? Who are we waiting for?

Wolfenswan

10-09-2011, 01:34 PM

Waiting on my turns from Colofnature, web_cole and ascagnel.

Draw against measurements with 2 of 3 left on both sides. #262499
Won against crakker with 2/4 left against 0/4. #255211

Web Cole

10-09-2011, 02:09 PM

Wolfenswan is fairly kicking my arse, so we should definitely get the game finished today ;)

Web Cole

10-09-2011, 05:28 PM

antilope has defeated Web_cole in game 255216 by 3 kills to 1 kill.

gg, a confident win, well played :)

WombatDeath

10-09-2011, 07:10 PM

Some more results from division 1:

Crakker defeated ColOfNature in game 257113 by 4 kills to 3.
Antilope defeated ColOfNature in game 257098 by 3 kills to 2.
ColOfNature defeated Ascagnel in game 257099 by 4 kills to 2.
Crakker defeated Ascagnel in game 256067 by 4 kills to 1.

It looks like kills/remaining dudes are mixed up in the raw data. For example both me and measurements killed only 1 guy in our match and had 2 each remaining, while in the match against Colofnature he killed 2 of mine and i killed 3 of his with 2/1 remaining.

WombatDeath

10-09-2011, 07:33 PM

It looks like kills/remaining dudes are mixed up in the raw data. For example both me and measurements killed only 1 guy in our match and had 2 each remaining, while in the match against Colofnature he killed 2 of mine and i killed 3 of his with 2/1 remaining.
You're right about the first one, and I've adjusted the F/A for you and Measurements accordingly.

The data for the ColOfNature game looks right, unless I'm missing something? It states that you killed three men and he killed two.

measurements

11-09-2011, 02:29 AM

Thanks for the youtube uploads on the spreadsheet - maybe put the names along side the urls? Anyway, hugely urge players to watch the matches. Really good games in there. It's a shame that they don't make it clearer on the vids where the turns fall. I don't possess the required hardware and software to make these videos a little more special or I totally would. (Also would be neat to control visibility perspectives).

I hope to finish my last game this weekend. Apologies if it drags on a little into next week?

Regarding GD and games I purposefully made all my matches this season 3 man. I think it fits the format of the symmetrical game a little better and makes turns quicker too. On the flip side, turn one in the four man games are invariably fucking mental.

ColOfNature

11-09-2011, 02:45 AM

<del></del>I've added the names next to the links on the Season 1 Vids tab. I've also started uploading the season 2 matches, and I'm putting links to those on the Season 2 raw data tab. Or you can just go to the channel (http://www.youtube.com/user/RockPaperSynapse) and check the playlists - there's one for each group/season pair (although season 2 is still WIP, should be done tomorrow).

I'll look into the YouTube API to see if it's possible to automagically add a caption indicating when each turn starts - I agree that would be useful, but I don't fancy doing it by hand. I'm afraid the visibility is set by the way FS encodes the video.

Regarding the promotion/demotion at the end of the season, is 3 the number going forward, or is this still balancing?

WombatDeath

11-09-2011, 03:21 AM

Many thanks to Col for his stirling work with the videos! I second (or third) the suggestion to take a look; there are some great matches in there. Please could you all post any of your matches which you think are particularly interesting/bloody/silly so that they can be highlighted in the youtube channel.

Regarding the promotions: I think that in future we will have the top/bottom two promoted and relegated, though it will depend on the division size. I should stress that all promotion/relegation positions are provisional: we don't yet know how many players will take part in season 3, so I will have to fit players into divisions in whatever manner seems best at the time.

Finally, I'm happy to allow some leeway in the final division 1 matches, but it would be appreciated if the relevant players could indicate in this thread that they will be around over the next few days. The Circle2/Crakker/Measurements situation is particularly interesting and I would greatly prefer not to have to force a forfeit for those games.

WombatDeath

11-09-2011, 03:28 AM

Also, the addition of youtube links in the spreadsheet (https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0AvmG4SoJhEYbdFgtbjN3VFE4OUxQTEtSLWVoVmJGX 3c&hl=en_GB#gid=7) is a fantastic idea; thanks Col!

Fumarole

11-09-2011, 04:18 AM

I think for next season it would help with confusion if players reporting match results simply indicate kills for each side. If it is explained to all that kills = goals scored that would help clear things up.

ColOfNature

11-09-2011, 03:20 PM

measurements has defeated ColOfNature in match 264057 by 3 kills to 2.

Well, this season has been a bit of a disaster.

CMaster

11-09-2011, 06:01 PM

measurements has defeated ColOfNature in match 264057 by 3 kills to 2.

Well, this season has been a bit of a disaster.

I just watched that game on Youtube. Last two turns are absolutely hilarious.

ColOfNature

11-09-2011, 06:09 PM

I know - especially that last turn. I forgot to set that MG back to engage-on-sight, so he looked right at measurements' MG twice then calmly turned away, walked round the corner then got shot in the back of the head. I was not best pleased, let me tell you.

measurements

11-09-2011, 06:39 PM

I just watched that game on Youtube. Last two turns are absolutely hilarious.

I know - especially that last turn. I forgot to set that MG back to engage-on-sight, so he looked right at measurements' MG twice then calmly turned away, walked round the corner then got shot in the back of the head. I was not best pleased, let me tell you.

Yeah, I'm starting to feel pretty bad about it as well. Without that mistake I would have been dead and any objective viewer could see I deserve no less. I suppose everyone has to click 'ok' to confirm their turn after the prime button but I basically got lucky and not even in a good way. If it makes anything easier for wombat: I know I won't be in the next season's games due to holidays (and I want to play other computer games dammit).

WombatDeath

11-09-2011, 06:44 PM

Shouldn't laugh - god knows it's happened to me often enough - but the execution-style last turn is absolutely brilliant.

Fumarole

11-09-2011, 07:12 PM

Shouldn't laugh - god knows it's happened to me often enough - but the execution-style last turn is absolutely brilliant.Yes. Yes it is.

ColOfNature

11-09-2011, 07:15 PM

Having got over kicking myself I can see the funny side. That's definitely one of the best endings to a match I've seen. As for feeling bad about it, measurements: nah. That's the kind of tactical error this game's all about. You won fair and square, but don't think I'll let you off so easy the next time!

circle

12-09-2011, 12:48 AM

circle2 has defeated Crakker in match 263737, 4 men to 0 men killed out of 4.

WombatDeath

12-09-2011, 02:22 AM

Excellent, that finalises the promotion/relegation zones. If Antilope and Ascagnel finished their game I'll update the spreadsheet; if not I will award a draw unless one of you suggests otherwise.

Now that season 2 is more or less wrapped up:

First of all, thank you all very much for your commitment in finishing your matches; the completion rate is fantastic and far better than in season 1. You are a credit to your vatforms!

Second, comments/suggestions for season 3 are open! Please splurge the content of your brain in as much detail as your splurging glands can muster: game type, season duration, rules, administration and everything else is up for discussion. If you're getting bored with Extermination, or think that seasons are too long or too short, now is the time to speak up.

Wolfenswan

12-09-2011, 09:29 AM

If Antilope and Ascagnel finished their game I'll update the spreadsheet; if not I will award a draw unless one of you suggests otherwise.

currently awaiting his turn and we both have lost 2 of 4 so a draw wouldn't be too unfair.

Doesn'tmeananything

12-09-2011, 11:39 AM

I'm so participating next season!

WombatDeath

12-09-2011, 01:33 PM

currently awaiting his turn and we both have lost 2 of 4 so a draw wouldn't be too unfair.
How long (roughly) have you been waiting?

Wolfenswan

12-09-2011, 01:40 PM

How long (roughly) have you been waiting?

couple of days now, maybe 2 weeks max but to be fair i let him hanging for some time too as i was busy with other matches and RL stuff.

WombatDeath

12-09-2011, 02:13 PM

OK, thanks - if it's not wrapped up this evening I'll mark it down as a draw.

Wolfenswan

12-09-2011, 02:16 PM

can't play anyhow as my mouse broke and i can only use one primary button atm. i'll have a replacement on thursday though. I'd love to see that match played out as it looks like the scores on the spreadsheet are quite close but it's up to you ultimately.

Peter Radiator Full Pig

12-09-2011, 07:23 PM

Division sizes are too big. Its just too many matches at once. I cant bring myself to care fully about that many matches at once. A division size of four is what Id go for, works for the blood bowl guys,

imirk

12-09-2011, 07:32 PM

I do not necessarily think the divisions are too large, but if they were changed to four or five you could change the promotion/relagation to 1 up. 1 down. one left/right

WombatDeath

12-09-2011, 08:09 PM

Hmm, interesting idea. If we were to have four or five per division would you want to shrink the season duration down to one week? What do the rest of you think about this?

measurements

12-09-2011, 08:14 PM

can't play anyhow as my mouse broke and i can only use one primary button atm. i'll have a replacement on thursday though. I'd love to see that match played out as it looks like the scores on the spreadsheet are quite close but it's up to you ultimately.

I read that as 'my mouse hand broke'.

The first division was a total of eight games per head but I think due to missing people everyone played seven? This season was six games. I think that it would be perfectly suited to reduce the stress level of obligatory gaming and fit two weeks neatly if the division size was brought down to six players, making each season five games per player.

Which is a lot of words more than saying 'I agree with imirk.' Also massive props to all players this season and last, I don't make myself play Frozen Synapse so I've been very grateful for something forcing me to do so. It's been emotional, and I'm not being sarcastic. Every death and kill was met with adrenally fuelled whoops and yelps. Yeah, I need to get out more.

imirk

12-09-2011, 08:20 PM

Hmm, interesting idea. If we were to have four or five per division would you want to shrink the season duration down to one week? What do the rest of you think about this?

One week would be tough, but 10-14 days would be about right, as it is I think my last game ended 2 weeks ago?

Jolima

12-09-2011, 08:29 PM

If we are shrinking them I would very much prefer making them shorter as well. I like playing all of my games at once, so otherwise I feel like there's a long wait for stragglers at the end. And I would prefer shorter seasons to bigger ones for much the same reason. I realize others may have other preferences though.

I think I prefer keeping it to symmetric elimination for the simplicity and fairness.

Fumarole

13-09-2011, 12:42 AM

Every match should have the same number of units per side. Everyone should report their score as player kills:kills player. The whole promotion/relegation thing could be explained for us colonials.

I'll post more when/if I think of 'em.

ascagnel

13-09-2011, 12:59 AM

OK, thanks - if it's not wrapped up this evening I'll mark it down as a draw.

Sorry about that, work has been rough and this weekend was fairly crazy as far as real life obligations go. Let me eat dinner and I'll be at my computer (figure 8:30/9:00pm eastern US time).

ColOfNature

13-09-2011, 01:56 AM

If we're trying to remove the random element, why not have one map per round? Someone is selected at the outset to issue the challenge, and everyone else has to use the same map for their game. (This is an ironic suggestion not meant to be taken seriously. I would like more randomness, not less.)

ascagnel

13-09-2011, 02:35 AM

If we're trying to remove the random element, why not have one map per round? Someone is selected at the outset to issue the challenge, and everyone else has to use the same map for their game. (This is an ironic suggestion not meant to be taken seriously. I would like more randomness, not less.)

Doing that, even though your'e only half-serious, isn't a bad idea in that it would normalize the results across all the different games. Its kinda how baseball teams stack towards their home field: for the Yankees vs. the Red Sox, the Sox take advantage of their home ballpark, whose left-field wall is the Green Monster, and the Yankees take advantage of the "short porch" in right field. The individual games are fair because each team has the same playing field; however, since the teams play roughly half their games at home, they'd get hitters that could more easily hit to either right or left field, whichever was advantageous.

I like using the same level, since it makes everything a little more equal, which is a huge factor considering how the number of dudes killed/left alive is a tiebreaking stat.

ColOfNature

13-09-2011, 02:44 AM

Oh fer Pete's sake. The only way to make that entirely fair would be to make sure that no-one completed their game before a specific time - otherwise someone who held off could see what strategy others used and copy them. The point of randomness is that it normalises over large enough samples anyway. I'm still unconvinced that even choosing the map offers a statistically significant advantage to the challenger.

Wolfenswan

13-09-2011, 04:15 PM

Antilope has beat Ascagnel with 4 kills vs 2. game#256072

Good stuff, thought you had me after taking out those two guys that early.

circle

14-09-2011, 12:08 AM

Good season again!

I think we should stick to a fixed number of men, perhaps 4? Maps should remain random, the challenger's discretion. I think that mirrored is enough to make it fair. Probably easiest to stick with Elimination.

I guess they changed the in-game ranking, does anyone know how it works now? I also feel like my win count is higher than I last recalled. They must have started counting the two week forfeits as well?

ColOfNature

14-09-2011, 12:30 AM

Antilope has beat Ascagnel
Nice grenade work (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PZ5TPrO9Gx4). In fact, nice game all round.

ascagnel

14-09-2011, 04:07 AM

Nice grenade work (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PZ5TPrO9Gx4). In fact, nice game all round.

Wolfenswan, I am not worthy. I am not worthy.

Peter Radiator Full Pig

14-09-2011, 10:54 PM

Oh fer Pete's sake. The only way to make that entirely fair would be to make sure that no-one completed their game before a specific time - otherwise someone who held off could see what strategy others used and copy them. The point of randomness is that it normalises over large enough samples anyway. I'm still unconvinced that even choosing the map offers a statistically significant advantage to the challenger.

Your one map idea has merit. If people can copy others, so can opponents. Also, youd either need to delay till the end, or since you would most likly have a different game by turn two, be unable to copy.
Randomness might normalise over large enough samples, but whos to say these samples are large enough? Maybe if, in a couple of thousand years, we have enough games done, wed know whos who in the Frozen Synapse world. In a tournamnet or division of 5, randomness has a large factor.
Also, in chosing the map, a person can look at an opponents games, see if they suck with, for instance, grenades, and make a game with two of them, or something. You can pick a map that plays to your strengths.
Strange that you want more randomness in a game like Frozen Synapse, designed from to esque that (Though not totally, or default would be symmertical elimination, which I think should at least be a game mode in the menu)

imirk

14-09-2011, 11:04 PM

If you are willing to go through my games and analyze my play style to pick a challenge to disavantage me then you deserve that advantage :P

ColOfNature

14-09-2011, 11:57 PM

As it happens I like the current system: it seems to have a nice balance between randomness and structure. If the consensus is that we want a specific number of units then that's fine too - in fact I'm warming to the idea. I just like as many variables as possible because occasionally they'll conspire to make me look good.

WombatDeath

16-09-2011, 12:18 AM

Right, I've had a busy few days so haven't been around as much as I'd like, but my current thoughts for season 3 are:

1) Each team must consist of four men
2) Divisions will contain five or six players (depending on number of sign-ups)
3) Other rules will remain the same
4) Season three will again be two weeks, starting 26 September
5) Sign-ups for season three will open next week (19 September), possibly earlier if I get my act together

Depending on how that works out we can consider smaller divisions and shorter seasons from season 4. I think this is one area where we can't please everyone: some people like to play lots of games at once and others prefer to sit and contemplate their next diabolical move at leisure from atop the throne of skulls in their subterranean Citadel of Doom. While I'm mainly in the former camp, lacking as I am a subterranean Citadel of Doom, I'm inclined to err on the side of caution and avoid turning the league into a chore for anyone.

More feedback welcome - the more the better!

By the way, some of you have been awarded victories (and possibly defeats) as a result of abandoned games (globally, not in this league). More info here (http://www.mode7games.com/blog/).

WombatDeath

16-09-2011, 12:46 AM

Oh, yes, and the final season two tables are available on the spreadsheet (https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0AvmG4SoJhEYbdFgtbjN3VFE4OUxQTEtSLWVoVmJGX 3c&hl=en_GB#gid=6). Congratulations to Web Cole, Airtekh and some sort of weird marsupial for topping their respective divisions! Well played to all those promoted, and commiserations to those heading down a division - it won't be long before you get the chance to go back up.

Thank you once again to Col for immortalising our collective genius/hamfistedness on the youtube channel, and to all of you (except Du3lingDragon, whose gleaming skull will be added to Web Cole's throne) for your commitment to getting all of the games finished.

In season three I am fucked.

SF Legend

22-09-2011, 08:00 PM

So the update just hit with tournament support. Will we be giving that a try for next season?

WombatDeath

25-09-2011, 07:33 PM

That was the plan, but they've had to roll back the Steam patch so we shall continue the old-fashioned way (a week later than expected - sorry about that, I've had a busy week). Sign-ups will open tonight!