Talk:ToX - Jude Mathis: Lilium Orb

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Liliale Orb testing, thoughts?

The following is a discussion that took place originally on User talk:JoeTang. All posts related to this subject have been moved here from that page. Please continue any further discussions here.

Liliale Orb

The Liliale Orb allows characters to invest Growth Points (GP) earned from leveling into gaining stats and unlocking skills. The Liliale Orb consists of six branches with nodes, one branch for each main stat, and areas that are unlocked when all the surrounding nodes have growth points invested. <insert more information here>

Jude 1st Orb

An area consists of the nodes directly above it, below it, and to its upper right and lower right, blah blah blah

I think I need to redraw the nodes at 6~9, so instead of rowspan=2 on some columns, they're just in their respective Area row. I would love to be able to stagger the areas so the nodes actually touch the correct ones so it's easily visible what the requirements are i.e. anything surrounding a certain area is required to unlock that area, but the table code doesn't want to cooperate. It's a miracle this doesn't look like even more of a cluster-fuck. Maybe using the same colour code that in-game uses for each stat and having a table would look better? I hate this font.

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Dexterity

Agility

Stamina

Strength

Intelligence

Mind

Node 1

DEX +9

AGI +16

STA +13

STR +15

INT +9

MND +14

Area 1

Magic Guard

Sazanka

Vitality

Kankuusen

Splendor Assault

Grow-Up Heal

Node 2

SP +6

AGI +18

HP +69

STR +16

TP +5

MND +15

Area 2

HP Gain

TP Gain

Combo TP Support

Well Guard

Flash Guard

Hienrenkyaku

Node 3

DEX +10

AGI +19

STA +14

STR +17

INT +10

MND +16

Area 3

Earth Guard

Eishourai*

Step Long

Exceed

TP Drain Guard

Wind Guard

Node 4

DEX +11

HP +81

AGI +20

SP +6

STA +15

TP +5

STR +19

HP +75

INT +10

TP +5

MND +17

SP +6

Area 4

Spirits

Kaikikou

Immunity

Combo Mental Supply

Cross Counter

Tenhou*

Node 5

SP +6

DEX +12

AGI +22

STA +16

HP +86

STA +17

STR +20

INT +11

TP +6

INT +12

MND +18

DEX +13

Area 5

Down Burst

Exceed 2

Rengadan*

Imitation Death

Shouteiha

Combo Voltage

Node 6

DEX +13

TP +6

HP +98

AGI +23

SP +7

TP +6

STA +18

SP +7

HP +92

STR +21

TP +7

SP +7

INT +13

HP +109

TP +7

MND +19

SP +7

HP +104

DEX +14

AGI +24

STA +19

STR +22

INT +13

MND +20

Area 6

Aqua Guard

Han'youjin

Quick Recover

Moving Assault

Dash

Hitenshouku

Node 7

DEX +15

SP +8

TP +8

AGI +26

HP +121

STA +23

STA +20

STR +27

SP +8

STR +24

SP +8

TP +9

INT +14

INT +17

HP +132

MND +21

TP +9

MND +25

DEX +16

AGI +27

STA +21

STR +25

INT +15

MND +23

Area 7

Dexterity

Agility*

Stamina

Strength

Intelligence

Mind

Node 8

DEX +17

DEX +17

TP +9

AGI +31

AGI +28

AGI +30

HP +127

SP +8

STA +22

STA +24

SP +9

HP +115

STR +26

STR +28

SP +9

INT +16

INT +16

TP +8

HP +144

MND +26

MND +24

TP +8

HP +138

DEX +18

DEX +19

AGI +32

STA +25

STR +30

INT +18

MND +27

Area 8

Vitality 2

Assault Step

Dark Guard

Shishisenkou

Splendor Quick*

Fire Guard

Node 9

DEX +20

DEX +20

HP +150

AGI +36

AGI +34

AGI +35

SP +9

STA +27

STA +26

STA +29

TP +10

STR +32

STR +31

STR +33

HP +155

INT +19

INT +19

INT +20

SP +9

MND +30

MND +28

MND +29

TP +10

DEX +21

This looks like a good start, but I don't know what the L. Orb is supposed to look like. If there are colors that are used in the game itself, it is better to use those for clarity, similar to the way I set up the Swordian Device pages for each character. You may also want to look at this page for an alternative method of display, but I find it unworkable due to the way the code has to be distributed - the information within the code becomes discontiguous.

How many levels exist within the L. Orb? I keep hearing of a second level through which the arcane artes of each character are learned, and I assume there must be more, so the entire chart will end up becoming quite massive, like the Soma Build pages for Hearts which were never completed. With that in mind, I'm going to have the L. Orb page become split into one for every character on the template, since it makes no sense to dump such a large amount of info on a single page. Skill descriptions will likely have to remain separate and on the same per-char organization that exists presently.

If you need to squeeze some details a bit more, the <small> tag will cause the text font to decrease. Other than that, the only other thing that can be done is to set the table to a fixed width and force people to make use of the horizontal scrollbar that should appear... and likely won't when using Wikia's awful "new look" skin, so tough luck for those people. Anyway, I'd like to see what it is you have in mind with the formatting, since this draft apparently does not show information accurately because of the lack of staggered cells.

The layout I was thinking of looked similar to the Swordian Device table in terms of having a bunch of staggered boxes with different colouration, though I want them to have equal-width appearance. For example, Magic Guard requires Node 1 and 2's DEX and AGI points invested to learn. I wanted to have Magic Guard staggered so exactly half of it was underneath the DEX branch, and the other half was underneath the AGI branch. This is simple enough, but when it comes down to working with the 9th node, or even the 4th node, the wiki formatting causes some of the cells to be different width sizes for some reason, and on some instances ignored the colspans altogether, aligning a colspan="4" column with a colspan="5" column. I have it divided up such that the total colspan of each large column is 12, and Node 9 uses colspan="3" since that's the lowest common denominator to divide them up into 4ths while being able to have 3rds higher up, but if I want to stagger them, I'd have to divide it into 24ths.

This is currently the entire 1st orb for Jude. There only exists a 2nd orb, and each character's is different such that they'll require a separate link alongside their Artes and Skills in the bottom thingy. At the start, you have up to Node 4 visible. You have to unlock the asterisked skill (I'll have a different indicator if I colour things), and two others in Area 3 to access Area 4 and Node 5, and so forth. Then, the 2nd orb has an identical appearance to the 1st orb after you unlock it, but with greater stat bonuses and more skills and artes.

The only thing I'm worried about for colouring, other than accurate colour reproduction, is that Mind (Magic Defense) uses a shade of green and so does SP (Skill Points), and I always thought they looked too similar in-game. Could be my monitor though. Wish I had a capture card so I could just sample each colour accurately :3

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Dexterity

Agility

Stamina

Strength

Intelligence

Mind

Area 6

DEX +14

Aqua Guard

AGI +24

Han'youjin

STA +19

Quick Recover

STR +22

Moving Assault

INT +13

Dash

MND +20

Hitenshouku

Node 7

DEX +15

SP +8

TP +8

AGI +26

HP +121

STA +23

STA +20

STR +27

SP +8

STR +24

SP +8

TP +9

INT +14

INT +17

HP +132

MND +21

TP +9

MND +25

Area 7

DEX +16

Dexterity

AGI +27

Agility*

STA +21

Stamina

STR +25

Strength

INT +15

Intelligence

MND +23

Mind

Node 8

DEX +17

DEX +17

TP +9

AGI +31

AGI +28

AGI +30

HP +127

SP +8

STA +22

STA +24

SP +9

HP +115

STR +26

STR +28

SP +9

INT +16

INT +16

TP +8

HP +144

MND +26

MND +24

TP +8

HP +138

DEX +18

Area 8

DEX +19

Vitality 2

AGI +32

Assault Step

STA +25

Dark Guard

STR +30

Shishisenkou

INT +18

Splendor Quick*

MND +27

Fire Guard

Node 9

DEX +20

DEX +20

HP +150

AGI +36

AGI +34

AGI +35

SP +9

STA +27

STA +26

STA +29

TP +10

STR +32

STR +31

STR +33

HP +155

INT +19

INT +19

INT +20

SP +9

MND +30

MND +28

MND +29

TP +10

DEX +21

So, compared to the JP Wiki's orb table that we have referenced for each page, this feels a lot more intuitive (as well as being more complete at the moment). You should be able to tell (or at least with a short note) that a Skill in an Area (as opposed to the occassional +stat that I had to bump down, because that's just the way they surround the areas later on) requires all those nodes that surround it, including the corners. I shortened the +Stat on the left, and made one of the columns in Node 7 larger, looks better that way and easier to tell you require the corners for those areas. I think the ones above Node 6 still need to be staggered, since things in Area 1 for example, don't require the top left and bottom left corners. A bit more touch-up to make it look nicer, and I can start making pages and copying out the other characters. Just wondering though, is the width too big? How do I get a fixed width for the entire table to get a scroll bar again? <____< I don't have problems seeing the entire thing, but I'm on a 1920x1080 using the old, non-shitty Wikia layout.

I can also continue getting preliminary stats for artes if I have time, mainly hits, TP, aerial/knockdown, but given they get bonuses based on usage, some may be inaccurate, and I'm not confident in catching each change as they occur. Hopefully, this didn't occur with Milla's artes.

Thank you for all of that info. We really should maintain the staggered effect to be completely accurate, which will require those 24 columns and possibly a very extended table width. I can see everything on my 1280x800 screen, admittedly with wordwrapping for many of the stat boxes, but anything smaller than that likely has extremely broken formatting. To force a fixed width, add width:1200pt;, setting the point value to whatever will work best, to the first line of the table code as follows:

Don't worry too much about width being too big, though any width mitigation will help the people who view the page. I'd rather have large widths to show everything with accuracy and detail, than lose something along the way. The latter setup looks a lot more efficient, especially since you mention that skills/artes require everything that surrounds them. However, I think the "Node/Area #" labels are redundant, and it might look more unified if only "Node #" is labeled, spanning both rows. It reintegrates the stat boosts that you bumped into the current "Area" rows, and I don't think it's a loss to remove the "Area" labels since those apply only to skills/artes anyway.

And I know this will add a lot more weight to the table, but I want to have the kana/kanji for the artes and skills displayed, following the usual bold with links/JP text/parentheses setup. I don't mind being the one to do it after you get the pages uploaded, if you want to focus on getting the information published before dealing with the frills. If it looks bad, I will reconsider, but I want to have it like that if at all possible. The stat boxes actually look nice if they are wordwrapped, and this way, horizontal whitespace in the skill/arte boxes can be filled and reduce width issues to some degree.

Also, if you don't mind, can we move this discussion onto the talk page for Jude's Liliale Orb page? Or just copy/paste if you want the same discussion to stay here on your own talk page as well. I want to have the info available more readily on a page it directly relates to, and I am likely to forget that we talked about this here if we don't move it.

Yeah, you can go ahead and move it. I just tossed up the table here since I needed somewhere to sandbox this. It shouldn't be a problem to add the kana/kanji, though three lines might be a bit tall. I should be able to finish this up sometime tomorrow though.

Done. I also forgot to mention this, but with the green colors, if a more significant differentiation must be made, then the shades can be made darker or lighter as needed. Don't just shift to a completely different color. And thank you for your help as always.

I think this looks accurate. HP and Stamina might be too close in colour. Maybe Stamina needs to be a fuller shade of red and HP closer to orange. It's hard to tell since I think they both use the same red on the background, but the lighter colour of the icon on the foreground for Stamina is what I replicated, and HP has a yellow lighting effect on the top left of the orb to make it a bit of an orange mix in the middle.

I aligned all the branches, so you can see a clear vertical branch down each stat line. Makes it look a lot neater on the eyes than when they were equal sized for each node, but uneven across multiple nodes. Thoughts on the white borders? Certain skills/artes are required to progress further in the Liliale Orb, and they're denoted in-game by a fancy white outline around their orb. Got any prettier ways to indicate this?

Should the +values be forced onto separate lines for every cell? Or just cells where the rest of the row exhibits this?

Oh wow, I -love- the white border effect. Everything looks truly neat and organized this way, and it does make the required things very clear. A note does have to be added to the top of the page to emphasize that this is what the white-bordered cells are for. As for using an orange color, would it not conflict more with the color you chose for highlighting the artes? If you can force them to be different while maintaining the game's color schemes, that would be best. I also notice that INT and TP use hardly different shades of blue, and if those could be separated a bit more without interfering with AGI somehow... Then again, even if the colors remain as is, it is a lot easier to pick out the stat boosts of a given type as it is now.

The +## boosts display quite nicely on a single line in the first 3 nodes, but after that, those values should be displayed with the line break. And on nodes 4 and 5, I think I would prefer those smaller cells to be widened so that, yes, all of those cells are at an equal width. Though everything after that should remain as is, I agree. Aside from these things, I think we're ready to publish whatever data there is for us to display.

Alternatively, I could use the same colour as STA/INT/MND for HP/TP/SP and give them a yellow border. The way it lights it in game is basically a very similar, if not identical colour orb to STA/INT/MND with a yellow lighting effect on the top left that blends a bit. The biggest telling difference is the yellow glow on it, which is fairly noticeable since basically half the orb is yellow. I thought INT/TP were different enough though in the table. Fixed the widths on 4/5. Maybe use some of these border types instead of a solid border.

The yellow borders will make it less clear which skills/artes are required to move on to the next node, since lots of cells will have borders now, and it will introduce confusion into what already looks quite clear. So unless we change how those are displayed, I'd have to pass on that idea. The colors are okay as they are now, though my screen shows very little difference between INT and TP unless I tilt my monitor back, meaning it's just a color-contrast issue. But I definitely would go with same colors plus yellow borders if we could. Ridge or double looks best for that purpose, since darkened corners of inset/outset look bad using yellow border on light-green background, and I dislike dotted/dashed anythings since it makes the boxes look like coupon cutouts.

I changed a couple of minor things in the code, fixing my mistake in showing that you should use "width=" instead of "width:", since the style tags should be CSS code. I also tried putting in a lot of <small> tags everywhere, but then I realized that it would add a lot of unnecessary weight to the code and slow down loading times for those with bad/busy web access.

Possible alternative would be to give it a half border on the top and left to "simulate" the lighting effect in some stupid way. I don't really think the yellow border conflicts too much with the skill's white border, and those can be made larger since the cell itself is gigantic in comparison. In terms of recognising whether or not a skill is a requirement just lies in someone's reading comprehension to the phrase "skills outlined in white are required along with two other skills from the same node to unlock the next node", and whether they interpret HP/TP/SP as skills, and yellow as white.

Pffft. There are a lot of people out there with questionable reading comprehension. =P A thicker border on the skills/artes seems to be the best possible solution, with both white and yellow borders using the ridge effect. The stat bonus cells should use the 3px border to keep it from drawing the eyes as much as the larger 7px white borders. It would be nice if we could use diagonal gradients to do the yellow corner thing, but that's not possible through HTML without using an uploaded background image which would have to stretch to fit the cell. Maybe that's something to look into, but it will look odd if those images happen to fail during page loading.

If we were to use background images, I would probably just take the time to try to redraw the icons or rip them off high quality screenshots. We'll go with this for now and I'll set up the page and finish up Jude's 2nd orb tomorrow if I have time and see where that takes us.