Rhen wrote:I've heard Adam say in a video that Qi is a "process" therefore "sink the process" is what he is really saying

so glad the blind are leading the blind and I'm not hearing the correct stuff being said. No kung fu there.

There are "points of attention" that need to be made before "sinking qi". Guess what. i'm not telling anyone what those are either. LOL

my secret for $2000 a year.

Rhen, by "process," I am sure that Adam means that there is a series of actions one undertakes in order to produce "qi." It doesn't magically happen; it is the result of a very specific set of components that one puts together -- an actual process, or procedure. And -that's- what "points of attention" refers to.

This work is NOT mysterious; it is quite tangible and concrete. But, as Bao pointed out, if a teacher or school does not want its students to acquire the skills, they will continue to use esoteric language and divert attention away from the specific mechanics of the human body (which includes the mind) involved. I don't believe this is Adam's intent; he, like many legitimate teachers, simply would not go into such detail in a seminar or public video. It is something for him to help his personal students explore in the kwoon. But he does allude to the very true matter that there is a process, and there are points of attention that it is necessary to recognize and maintain, in order to create the effect (in this case, "qi").

Are you telling your students to sink the Qi and then go on explaining physiology, or you do not tell the students anything about sinking the Qi and just explain to them about physiology??

Hi Trick,Teachers may give students a series of simple exercises to do that, when done, create the foundational conditions that will later be added to and built upon. Explaining too much can be counterproductive at that early stage. After a student starts to feel and understand the primary movements, placements and conditions, then learning the relevant anatomy and physics (or descriptive mechanics) can help with the intellectual understanding of these concepts. But IME, the physical must come first, and in simple, parsed-out steps.

Think about learning to read, as a young child. How much explaining can a teacher use to help a child understand an alphabet? The child needs to memorize -- visually, aurally, orally, and manually -- the alphabet. That's quite enough to start with! But consider how essential that step of learning is, for everything else that will be learned down the road.

Rhen wrote:I've heard Adam say in a video that Qi is a "process" therefore "sink the process" is what he is really saying .

I know you're being obstinate but yes. Another way to express it, within my current understanding, is move the location of the process or allow the process to occur.

Like I said not my intention to try to defend Adam, I find the material very helpful and informative. It seems like folks are getting hung up on one instruction among hundreds of hours of detailed material.

He states he doesn't find translating Qi into Western concepts to be helpful. I agree. You can find clusters of words that approach the meaning but nothing precise, it's better to leave it alone and approach understanding through practice. Getting fixated on one possible translation causes errors in understanding, imho.

If you really want to know what he's talking about, ask him or take the course, it's not my material to explain and it's quite affordable considering the value

"This principle is very obvious and requires no further elaboration."-Yang Cheng Fu

Interloper wrote:Teachers may give students a series of simple exercises to do that, when done, create the foundational conditions that will later be added to and built upon. Explaining too much can be counterproductive at that early stage. After a student starts to feel and understand the primary movements, placements and conditions, then learning the relevant anatomy and physics (or descriptive mechanics) can help with the intellectual understanding of these concepts. But IME, the physical must come first, and in simple, parsed-out steps.

Different words, but exactly the approach I use.

I suggest that an exercise is - or should be - presenting a specific situation that is explicitly designed or intended to facilitate having a student experience (feel) first-hand a specific experience. If the student performs that situation within certain parameters (i.e. practices "correctly") doing so will lead the student towards a specific experience. Properly designed, that experience brings with it an awareness of or understanding of a specific skill or ability in a way that an academic or verbal description usually does not.

In my opinion, many of the things people practice, people don't really understand why they are practicing it - what that specific thing, exercise or experience, is designed or intended to promote or bring about. They end up with copying choreography, the purpose of which they don't understand, and then repeat it over and over again.

no one needs taijiquan this or that to sink qi or work on qi. otherwise qigong doesn't exist outside taijiquan which is ridiculous.

amateur practices til gets right pro til can't get wrong/ better approx answer to right q than exact answer to wrong q which can be made precise /“most beautiful thing we can experience is the mysterious. Source of all true art & science

if you read the healer thread or watch the show, it's pretty clear charlie instantly felt strong qi flow (what we would call it, not what he calls it) and as far as we know, he never did taijiquan or qigong or knew what they were or went through any process. one day he pulled his hands apart and just felt a strong energy. beginners interested in qigong can feel a weak sense of this same energy on day 1. seemingly paradoxically, doing taijiquan form, slowly and smoothly, seems to increase this sense. but no one actually needs to do taijiquan form. they can just do qigong that isn't connected to MA.

amateur practices til gets right pro til can't get wrong/ better approx answer to right q than exact answer to wrong q which can be made precise /“most beautiful thing we can experience is the mysterious. Source of all true art & science

one day he pulled his hands apart and just felt a strong energy. beginners interested in qigong can feel a weak sense of this same energy on day 1.

There is a sound physiological and neurological reason for this sensation and it has nothing to do with an 'energy' between the hands. The feeling in Taiji forms practice is also based in sound Neurological and Physiological realities that do not require any type of 'energy'.

As a wider point on Qi.

In my experience, using the word 'Qi' Is too open to the whims and interpretations of whomever is saying the word for it to be truely useful in the wider sense. Among the IMA masters i have met they nearly all had a different explination, to highlight this you can just start a thread here 'What is Qi?' and you will get more disagreement than agreement.

In that climate of vast, varied definition, any really useful meaning to the word is lost in wider discussions like this.

I guess that could be the reason Adam says to stick to one teacher, it means you dont get confused by the myriad of competing theories. Certianly, if the model works within a school and produces results it should be stuck too, but arguing competing theories and definitions for something as defuse in meaning as 'sinking the Qi', when the thing you are trying to sink is completely undefined in the wider context seems like a pointless endeavour.

I suggest that an exercise is - or should be - presenting a specific situation that is explicitly designed or intended to facilitate having a student experience (feel) first-hand a specific experience. If the student performs that situation within certain parameters (i.e. practices "correctly") doing so will lead the student towards a specific experience. Properly designed, that experience brings with it an awareness of or understanding of a specific skill or ability in a way that an academic or verbal description usually does not.

Excellent post. Absolutely agree! This is why i am really not a fan of the type of seminar format we see so often, where teachers talk for 2 hours and students practice for 20 minutes. (see internal seminar thread)

thanks.

Last edited by middleway on Fri Dec 08, 2017 1:37 am, edited 2 times in total.

the main theory that is more developed and that we may all know a little about is from TCM. it doesn't seem like "daoist" or "buddhist" qigong has much theory.

MA instructors usually would not have much background in this theory and practice, so "competing theories" are maybe more like competing explanations/translations/shticks. I wouldn't call attempts at scientific study "competing theories" unless the competing theory is just the null hypothesis or placebo since scientific method hasn't been able to give us any actual theory. giving explanations on poorly developed theory or practice (as far as we know even IMA people don't seem to do much qigong) is usually not the best idea in any field of study. Therefore I agree that MA people should stay away from explanations and just help students do something practical that gives them an experience and feeling. In this sense, only saying "sink the qi" (describes an experience/feeling) and "relax" (practical) is better.

Last edited by everything on Fri Dec 08, 2017 7:34 am, edited 1 time in total.

amateur practices til gets right pro til can't get wrong/ better approx answer to right q than exact answer to wrong q which can be made precise /“most beautiful thing we can experience is the mysterious. Source of all true art & science

everything wrote:if you literally do and feel "sink the qi", you might feel more relaxation and heaviness or rootedness. If you try to actively do things with muscle, there isn't anything wrong with that, but it's kind of the opposite of the "song/relax" advice (unless "relax" is the thing you are doing, I suppose).

Hi everything,The idea that everything must be "relaxed" is one that is very often misunderstood. Being "song" doesn't mean that the entire body is a limp noodle. To make make "peng" and actively move "qi," there must be some muscle and connective tissue tension. We play off the dynamic tensions of complementary-opposite (some would say "opposing") forces -- Yin and Yang, not in an esoteric way, but with very real, specific muscles, tendons, ligaments and fascia.

At the outset, beginners start a baseline of learning how to create a clear pathway in their bodies (i.e. their aligned vertebrae and joints) through which force can travel... at first, passively, by "dropping" the mass down through the alignment. For that, yes, most of the body is relaxed except for what is absolutely needed to maintain structure. You don't want to collapse in a heap.

Later, after this pathway has been recognized and can be created at will, students learn exactly which muscles and connective tissues to contract in order to condense the center of mass, in effect actively drawing it rather than passively letting it "drop." Conversely, they also learn which muscles to contract to create the effect of expansion and propulsion, to return force from the ground to the extremities and/or point of contact with an opponent.

Using these specified muscles (which are not the ones conventionally used by most people to generate force) allows the person to relax the "conventional" muscles and muscle groups, particularly the upper back, shoulder and arm muscles that people are accustomed to flexing and tensing, but also outer-layer muscles of the torso and abdomen. If you were to grab their arms, shoulders, etc., everything would feel soft and relaxed. The tissues that are working hard, however, are elsewhere.

Last edited by Interloper on Fri Dec 08, 2017 10:15 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Adam's main focus was on his training regimen which includes song gong, stretching, standing, meditation, form, push hands and sparring with an emphasis on meditation. I would like to see more discussion of this menu.

richardg6 wrote:Adam's main focus was on his training regimen which includes song gong, stretching, standing, meditation, form, push hands and sparring with an emphasis on meditation. I would like to see more discussion of this menu.

Adam like others says that fighting skills comes from form practice, or from building up a tai chi body. I don't agree. I've met so many tai chi people that claim that they practice tai chi 2, 3, 4 or even more hours every day. But when you meet them and go against them, they still get stiff, hard, use hard contact, etc. Tai Chi fighting skills comes from testing your tai chi body against others, from learning to keep it and use it when you confront others. You can also develop your tai chi body when you practice against others.

Thoughts on Tai Chi (My Tai Chi blog)- Storms make oaks take deeper root. -George Herbert- To affect the quality of the day, is the highest of all arts! -Walden Thoreau

Adam like others says that fighting skills comes from form practice, or from building up a tai chi body. I don't agree. I've met so many tai chi people that claim that they practice tai chi 2, 3, 4 or even more hours every day. But when you meet them and go against them, they still get stiff, hard, use hard contact, etc. Tai Chi fighting skills comes from testing your tai chi body against others, from learning to keep it and use it when you confront others. You can also develop your tai chi body when you practice against others.

Bao, with respect, he does not say that fighting skill comes from form practice. Quite the contrary, he advocates a minimal amount of form practice but emphasizes meditation, song gong, push hands and sparring to test skills. His main emphasis in my analysis is meditation. I have found that those who stiffen, use force, cannot accept, and redirect using the opponents force are not highly skilled at all.

richardg6 wrote:Adam's main focus was on his training regimen which includes song gong, stretching, standing, meditation, form, push hands and sparring with an emphasis on meditation. I would like to see more discussion of this menu.

Adam like others says that fighting skills comes from form practice, or from building up a tai chi body. I don't agree. I've met so many tai chi people that claim that they practice tai chi 2, 3, 4 or even more hours every day. But when you meet them and go against them, they still get stiff, hard, use hard contact, etc. Tai Chi fighting skills comes from testing your tai chi body against others, from learning to keep it and use it when you confront others. You can also develop your tai chi body when you practice against others.

Those guys you met and tested probably did not practice their "solo"(forms) exercices the right way, and for sure as you hint at did not take those "right"way solo exercises into the sparring/testing arena. But of course it's all "in the form(s)" if practiced right, I mean all the clues about correct relaxation, posture, awareness and correct timing against an "opponent" whether it's upon touch or on further distance, yes this is also in the form. So of course the more quality forms practice the deeper these "clues" sink in, then one have a good skill base to work on in push hands/application practice to sparring/fighting practice.... So actually it's all in the form, it's up to the practitioners personal goals how far one want to take it.