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Re: Naruto Hangout Thread v.12

Originally Posted by M3J

It wasn't the grudge because of what happened, but because he thought Jiraiya abandoned them? I'm not sure if Nagato ever says this, or if it's implied. I do know he mentioned how life got hard/worse after Jiraiya left, and that he knew nothing of it.

Nagato did mention how things got harder, but I don't believe it was implied he held a grudge.

Originally Posted by KiSwordsman

That's not really saying he has a right to it. I'm not entirely sure how that connects to believing you have a right to something. Where as Nagato...

"As a God, what I say, what I think, becomes the law of God."

Obito is not doing this because he thinks it's an "act of God, (him)." He's doing this because he thinks it's the only thing that can be done, and he'll, or more accurately, Madara will have the power to do it. if I haven't made it clear enough already, I in no way condone what he's doing, the means at which he's going by it, and the end results.

In regard to the bolded part, The regret does connect to Kakashi's later actions, him killing Rin. You phrase it as though Obito had to know that his Sharingan specifically had a hand in Rin's death for him to feel regret. One can still feel regret without knowing exactly how much one's own actions affect certain events. I'm not really sure how it's moot considering he sacrificed himself.

But wouldn't believing it's the only way to bring about their "peace" and disregarding the attempts of others using different methods, not showcase the same thinking?

I'm not sure one can feel regret without having an exact reason. A general feeling would be detain. It's moot because feeling overall regret towards Kakashi would mean feeling regret towards being rescued and thus his own life, which wouldn't have changed anything that happen to Rin.

Originally Posted by KiSwordsman

Oh, I'm aware of that, I just find it hilarious. You implied that he showed apathy toward Jiraiya overall. How was his overall attitude not one of superiority as well? He believed He knew better than Jiraiya because his experiences turned him into a "God." No doubt eating up the B.S Obito fed to him. I don't understand how that equates to indifference.

Also we are talking about a character who went from this to this in two chapters I'm almost positive that not much time passed within the manga itself, And a character that went from mortal to God in the span of a number of years with a sizable amount of manipulation strung in there.

Even if Jiraiya and Nagato's relationship had more substance, due to the amount of time they spent together. They didn't even have close to similar events happen within their relationship.

I'm implying that while he showed superiority overall to the world as a whole, towards Jiraiya personally it was coupled with apathy.

But don't forget, that Obito clearly wasn't all that apathetic considering he attacked Konoha with the Kyuubi and specifically targeted Minato, for no discernible reason other then his own desire to. There was no point in him doing so for any other reason, and in fact it went against their future plans.

Re: Naruto Hangout Thread v.12

Originally Posted by Rikudou King

But wouldn't believing it's the only way to bring about their "peace" and disregarding the attempts of others using different methods, not showcase the same thinking?

I'm not sure one can feel regret without having an exact reason. A general feeling would be detain. It's moot because feeling overall regret towards Kakashi would mean feeling regret towards being rescued and thus his own life, which wouldn't have changed anything that happen to Rin.

A person can have a certain belief or way of thinking in regard to a subject and disregard other peoples different opinions and methods in regard to the same thing without thinking themselves "gods," or believing they have a right to do it their way. Also based on this, Obito has an inkling that his "peace" isn't really peace. His way of thinking is flawed but I don't see how he believes that has a right to carry out his end goals.

His reason for regret is the fact that Kakashi not only didn't fulfill his promise, but he was the one to kill Rin. We are on the same page in regard to him trusting Kakashi with Rins safety. However, just because he was unaware that the sharingan completed Chidori doesn't mean that he couldn't regret giving it to Kakashi due to that. How is that not an exact reason? Just because he was unaware?

So you're saying that it's moot because Kakashi has one up on Obito in the life saving department, Like he owed him anyway, so it doesn't count?

Quote:

I'm implying that while he showed superiority overall to the world as a whole, towards Jiraiya personally it was coupled with apathy.

But don't forget, that Obito clearly wasn't all that apathetic considering he attacked Konoha with the Kyuubi and specifically targeted Minato, for no discernible reason other then his own desire to. There was no point in him doing so for any other reason, and in fact it went against their future plans.

Originally Posted by Rikudou King

Nagato had apathy towards Jiraiya, but there was no sign of him regretting their time together.

Here you didn't specify that It was Jiraiya's query about Yahiko that Nagato was apathetic toward. Which is why I assumed that you were trying to say that he was entirely apathetic in regard to Jiraiya. Even still, like I said before, that doesn't compare to Kakashi and Obito's relationship given the circumstances.

Re: Naruto Hangout Thread v.12

Originally Posted by KiSwordsman

A person can have a certain belief or way of thinking in regard to a subject and disregard other peoples different opinions and methods in regard to the same thing without thinking themselves "gods," or believing they have a right to do it their way. Also based on this, Obito has an inkling that his "peace" isn't really peace. His way of thinking is flawed but I don't see how he believes that has a right to carry out his end goals.

His reason for regret is the fact that Kakashi not only didn't fulfill his promise, but he was the one to kill Rin. We are on the same page in regard to him trusting Kakashi with Rins safety. However, just because he was unaware that the sharingan completed Chidori doesn't mean that he couldn't regret giving it to Kakashi due to that. How is that not an exact reason? Just because he was unaware?

So you're saying that it's moot because Kakashi has one up on Obito in the life saving department, Like he owed him anyway, so it doesn't count?

One doesn't have to think of themselves as a "god" in order to have a god complex. Simply having an inflated sense of importance and inability to see error is required.

Well yeah. You can't regret something you don't know about, unlike the whole promise issue. And it's not that Kakashi has one up over him, but regretting Kakashi's "actions" would include regretting his own survival and I don't think Obito's at the self-loathing point.

Originally Posted by KiSwordsman

Here you didn't specify that It was Jiraiya's query about Yahiko that Nagato was apathetic toward. Which is why I assumed that you were trying to say that he was entirely apathetic in regard to Jiraiya. Even still, like I said before, that doesn't compare to Kakashi and Obito's relationship given the circumstances.

How is that relevant regarding his relationship with Kakashi?

Why doesn't it compare. Both had the subjects meet and grow on each other for a few years, one grant the other a life philosophy, and see the eventual ruination of that belief after the one was left behind due to the death of a loved one. The only difference is that Obito was recon into being secretly jealous of Kakashi and their division happen (relatively) sooner then the one between Jiraiya and Nagato. That and Kakashi had a direct hand in it while Jiraiya was oblivious to what had happen.

His actions were done due to Minato not being there to protect Rin, which shows he's not apathetic towards that event.

Originally Posted by M3J

Dunno, he said that that things got harder after Jiraiya left, as if him leaving caused problems. I may have forgotten the exact words though.

Nagato did speak like that, but according to what we saw in their flashback, things were being handled fine til Yahiko's death.

Re: Naruto Hangout Thread v.12

Well they choose to become revolutionaries, which means wounds would have been expected, and they seem to have been doing a good job of it til Hanzo tricked them. They had become well-known to the world at large and inspired enough fear/caution in the greater nations to cause Konoha to partner up with Ame against them.

Re: Naruto Hangout Thread v.12

One doesn't have to think of themselves as a "god" in order to have a god complex. Simply having an inflated sense of importance and inability to see error is required.

Well yeah. You can't regret something you don't know about, unlike the whole promise issue. And it's not that Kakashi has one up over him, but regretting Kakashi's "actions" would include regretting his own survival and I don't think Obito's at the self-loathing point.

I see what you did there, touché. However, I still do no see where he believes he has a right to his end goals.

Regretting ones own actions for someone is different than regretting something you have no knowledge of. The whole regret argument anyway was a branch off of the whole who unlocked the Mangekyo for whom argument. We could all see that Obito unlocked the Mangekyo for himself and there are many other factor besides regret.

Quote:

Why doesn't it compare. Both had the subjects meet and grow on each other for a few years, one grant the other a life philosophy, and see the eventual ruination of that belief after the one was left behind due to the death of a loved one. The only difference is that Obito was recon into being secretly jealous of Kakashi and their division happen (relatively) sooner then the one between Jiraiya and Nagato. That and Kakashi had a direct hand in it while Jiraiya was oblivious to what had happen.

His actions were done due to Minato not being there to protect Rin, which shows he's not apathetic towards that event.

You originally argued that Nagato's apathy (in regard to his query of Yahiko) toward Jiraiya didn't mean he felt regret. Nagato's relationship with Jiraiya and Obito's relationship with Kakashi are two different things. yes, they shared similarities. However, the circumstances surrounding and within each relationship are different. Nagato took a number years and still didn't have any traumatic events with in the relationship in regard to the two of them. Even still their relationship was not at all the same as the ladder's.' Obito took 10-15 minutes. That's including the time he spent slaughtering those mist anbu. which, in all honesty, is being generous.

That's an assumption and that's also speaking of the event not his relationship with Kakashi.

Re: Naruto Hangout Thread v.12

Originally Posted by KiSwordsman

I see what you did there, touché. However, I still do no see where he believes he has a right to his end goals.

Regretting ones own actions for someone is different than regretting something you have no knowledge of. The whole regret argument anyway was a branch off of the whole who unlocked the Mangekyo for whom argument. We could all see that Obito unlocked the Mangekyo for himself and there are many other factor besides regret.

We'll have to agree to disagree, because between his comments at the summit and recent proclamations against Naruto, seems like he believes their plan trumps everything.

Given what we were shown via Sasuke and Itachi, MS would potentially be awaken by any strong emotion. Itachi expected Sasuke to gain MS with his "defeat". In that situation, Sasuke would never have had reason to feel any regret without knowing the truth and manipulated to feel nothing but hatred towards him. Then there's the situation with Madara and Izuna, who awoke theirs without hurting each other. And Itachi seem more about guilt then anything else with Shisui.

Originally Posted by KiSwordsman

You originally argued that Nagato's apathy (in regard to his query of Yahiko) toward Jiraiya didn't mean he felt regret. Nagato's relationship with Jiraiya and Obito's relationship with Kakashi are two different things. yes, they shared similarities. However, the circumstances surrounding and within each relationship are different. Nagato took a number years and still didn't have any traumatic events with in the relationship in regard to the two of them. Even still their relationship was not at all the same as the ladder's.' Obito took 10-15 minutes. That's including the time he spent slaughtering those mist anbu. which, in all honesty, is being generous.

That's an assumption and that's also speaking of the event not his relationship with Kakashi.

Nagato's traumatic event was having everything he, everything that Jiraiya had molded into him, be proven a lie at the expense of the person he cared about most/nearly idolized. Just because Jiraiya didn't have a personal hand in it doesn't lessen the overall trauma. Nagato would have had a far more deeper relationship with Yahiko and Jiraiya then Obito would have had with Rin and Kakashi.

It's an inference given how we were shown Obito having a flashback involving Minato about becoming Hokage right before we went to the events of the Kyuubi Invasion. It's the only reasoning that makes a bit of sense.

Re: Naruto Hangout Thread v.12

Originally Posted by Rikudou King

Nagato's traumatic event was having everything he, everything that Jiraiya had molded into him, be proven a lie at the expense of the person he cared about most/nearly idolized. Just because Jiraiya didn't have a personal hand in it doesn't lessen the overall trauma. Nagato would have had a far more deeper relationship with Yahiko and Jiraiya then Obito would have had with Rin and Kakashi.

It's an inference given how we were shown Obito having a flashback involving Minato about becoming Hokage right before we went to the events of the Kyuubi Invasion. It's the only reasoning that makes a bit of sense.

Where did I say that Nagato's situation wasn't traumatic or even try to lessen the trauma? I said that the relationship between both groups (Obito and Kakashi vs Jiraiya and Nagato) is different. I already said that Nagato had a better relationship with Jiraiya, and the only reason one could say as such is because of the time they spent together, getting along. That doesn't change the fact that the two relationships are different and there exists no traumatic events between Nagato and Jiraiya. It took what happened with Yahiko for Nagato to drop Jiraiya's idealism, but the traumatic event was Yahiko's death. And, that also doesn't make the relationship Obito had with Kakashi less meaningful by comparison.

That doesn't change the fact that it's an assumption, and it's still has to do with the event, not his relationship with Kakashi.

Re: Naruto Hangout Thread v.12

Originally Posted by KiSwordsman

Where did I say that Nagato's situation wasn't traumatic or even try to lessen the trauma? I said that the relationship between both groups (Obito and Kakashi vs Jiraiya and Nagato) is different. I already said that Nagato had a better relationship with Jiraiya, and the only reason one could say as such is because of the time they spent together, getting along. That doesn't change the fact that the two relationships are different and there exists no traumatic events between Nagato and Jiraiya. It took what happened with Yahiko for Nagato to drop Jiraiya's idealism, but the traumatic event was Yahiko's death. And, that also doesn't make the relationship Obito had with Kakashi less meaningful by comparison.

That doesn't change the fact that it's an assumption, and it's still has to do with the event, not his relationship with Kakashi.

I didn't claim you stated such or that Obito's relationship with Kakashi less meaningful then it was shown. The traumatic event between Nagato and Jiraiya was the failure of their ideas. The death of Yahiko was also a trauma that resulted from the same event, but a separate issue that fed into it (Yahiko considering Nagato the important one to bring it while Nagato and Konan wanted to support him).

We have both evidence pointing towards it and no other explanation for said event, and it establishes that Obito wasn't so unfeeling about Rin's death as he made it seem.

Re: Naruto Hangout Thread v.12

Originally Posted by Rikudou King

Which is why I said relatively instantly. Upon his second usage, he had it down pat, without requiring any practice or effort. Same with his Tsukuyomi and Susanoo.

I would understand your argument, if he could shape Amaterasu during his fight against Bee. That I would count as "relatively instantly".
A fight is also a form of training/practice/effort, the only difference being that it's more intense and dangerous.

Originally Posted by Rikudou King

The problem is I think, is your presumption that Sasuke would have "many" fights that would require his MS techniques, when there's been shown only a small handful that would actually require that level of power. And even then, Naruto's really the only one who would push him to employ MS drastically. Also I mentioned that Sasuke lasting would depend upon his own decision about his abilities.

His reasons for taking Itachi's eyes was stated, wanting to beat Naruto down with everything he could.

No, I'm not saying that Sasuke would have many fights pushing him to use MS abilities. Back, my point was that the EMS made it possible for Sasuke to use a complete Susanoo (in a fight, not farting it out for one second), Amaterasu Shurikens and Amaterasu Sword. Not giving him those abilities, making it possible for him to use them. You said that Sasuke would have those abilities anyway the next time he uses them. But there wouldn't be a next time, in my opinion though, since Itachi with the same vision as Sasuke went fully blind in his next MS fight.

Originally Posted by Rikudou King

It was a specific technique, Edo Tensei itself. Madara had simply used it upon himself. Sasuke's hatred fuels his Susanoo, causing it to change/evolve. That's what enabled him to break through Danzo's seal. Obito underestimating Sasuke doesn't mean much when he had been doing so the whole battle.

No, I'm not talking about the seals, which let him break the connection between him and Kabuto. This had nothing to do with the seals. I don't say he broke ET with his willpower, I'm saying that he put his soul back in ET state with just willpower.

Sasuke's hatred determines his willpower, the more hatred he feels the stronger he/his willpower gets.

Originally Posted by Rikudou King

The first three and fifth are general, which I accepted even with the later mention by Itachi of not having such an ability. The fourth is arguable, as Itachi could have seen them before he turned his back. It's the last one and his later action of directly touching Sasuke's forehead that I feel brings into question the exact nature of the blindness upon the Sharingan's other abilities.

What do you mean with general? Those are above average sensing skills, even by ninja, Jounin and possibly Kage standards. Besides I'm not saying that Itachi has sensing "Jutsus"/abilities like Naruto, Nagato or Shi. When I talk about Itachi's "sensing skills", I'm referring to his five senses (excluding the eyes in my examples).
Even if he saw the Kage Bunshins before, he was still able to pinpoint both of them with kunais at the same spot without the help of his eyes.

The fifth example proves that he couldn't see anything, otherwise his statement that he feels the Hydra Jutsu wouldn't make sense.

I am really sorry to intrude, but I want to give a simple opinion. There is a simple explaination on why Sasuke changed the shape of his Amaterasu, and this does not even mean that Itachi or someone else couldn't. Before Sasuke unlocked MS, Kakashi had already taught him how to do shape maipulation of his lightling. The same process is what Sasuke did with the Amaterasu. Whether it is the shape of Amaterasu, or chidori, it is the same process. Sasuke could even manipulate the shape of his usual fire if he wanted.

Again, I think you should not judge Itachi from his single fight against Sasuke. In my opinion, Itachi was much stronger than Sasuke, and the manga even showed it, but you are somehow trying to turn the facts around. So far, Sasuke is the weakest of all the Uchiha that were shown (if I discount Obito due to Hashimara cell). ITachi graduation from academy and his role in anbu are evidences. ITachi killed the Uchiha (the entire clan) with his MS power, and you should not assume that all the Uchiha surrendered like his parents. Uchiha used is MS much longer than Sasuke, and was only weakened by sickness. Try to imagine the number of mission he conducted as an anbu. On the other end, Sasuke was shown weaker than him from the beginning. Sasuke collapse easily against Haku (you can blame Naruto). He would not last long against Gaara without the curse mark, and would not even be able to fight itachi more than a minute without Orochimaru's power. As an Uchiha, Sasuke is the poorest one, who cannot stand without power that are external to his sharingan.

PS: Sorry if I sound like belittling him, but I want you to see that there are lot of factor that your are discounting.

It's a discussion thread, so feel free to share your thoughts and opinions, even if you don't agree with others/my opinion! No big deal.

But it seems that you misunderstood the subject of our (ninjabot, Rikudou King and me) discussion. Furthermore I also got the impression that you think I'm trying to downgrade Itachi, which is absolutely not the case (though, it could be because of my crap english skills).

The discussion started with my reply to ninjabot's post way before. That's why I will keep my reply short, since your points have no relation to the actual discussion subject.

There was never a discussion about how Sasuke was able to shape Amaterasu, the discussion was about if he got the shaping skills instantly after gaining MS or did he improve his Amaterasu controlling skills over time.

I'm not judging Itachi from his single fight against Sasuke. I know that Itachi was holding back, not going for the kill and on his deathbed. The issue was that Itachi went blind in his first MS fight after having such a vision. The point was if Sasuke could handle a MS fight after having the same vision like Itachi, which I replied that I don't believe that he could do this.

In my opinion Itachi will always be the better ninja and he is still stronger than Sasuke (that is going to change though).

Originally Posted by so6pww

There is no way I can convince you on this, but I always had the idea that Itachi wasn't sensing anything. A normal human can have 180 degree vision field, even though the edges are not clear (he can see people in that field). My opinion is that Itachi's crow with Shisiu's eye was connected to Itachi himself, and the crow could cover his back. This is my opinion on how Itachi caught his enemy. His crow his always hidden and following him.

About Itachi sensing & pinpointing skills:#1: Itachi was able to sense Sasuke behind his back (without the help of his eyes), Kisame didn't notice#2: Itachi sensed Sasuke behind his back (without the help of his eyes), Fugaku didn't notice#3: Itachi asking Naruto to come out of his hiding-place#4: Itachi sensing the right number of Kage Bunshins behind his back and pinpointing them with kunais, without the help of his eyes.#5: Itachi feeling Orochimaru's hydra technique, that proves that he was fully blind in every sense of the word#6: Itachi pinpointing Orochimaru with the Sword of Totsuka

Itachi notices Naruto (#4) & Sasuke (#1, #2) behind his back, which has nothing to do with a 180 degree vision. The likes of Fugaku (advantageous position) and Kisame (same position) couldn't do the same and were even suprised. In #2 Itachi didn't have the crow with Shisuis Sharingan, I should also add that your theory is really far fetched and Kishi never hinted something like that. Itachi has extraordinary senses and showed that he can pinpoint people without the sense of sight.

Re: Naruto Hangout Thread v.12

Originally Posted by syx

I would understand your argument, if he could shape Amaterasu during his fight against Bee. That I would count as "relatively instantly".
A fight is also a form of training/practice/effort, the only difference being that it's more intense and dangerous.

The incident against Kirabi was the first time activation/awakening. We went from Sasuke first discovering it to the next battle having him manipulate it with ease and in a named technique. There wasn't a period of him training or practicing with Amaterasu between those two points.

Originally Posted by syx

No, I'm not saying that Sasuke would have many fights pushing him to use MS abilities. Back, my point was that the EMS made it possible for Sasuke to use a complete Susanoo (in a fight, not farting it out for one second), Amaterasu Shurikens and Amaterasu Sword. Not giving him those abilities, making it possible for him to use them. You said that Sasuke would have those abilities anyway the next time he uses them. But there wouldn't be a next time, in my opinion though, since Itachi with the same vision as Sasuke went fully blind in his next MS fight.

But Sasuke would have had those abilities upon his next usage of Susanoo, regardless of which eyes he possessed. And a single usage of Susanoo wouldn't have driven him to blindness. Even taking Itachi's example as literal and ignoring the rapid nature of his usage during it, that would still give Sasuke five more usages of his MS before he actually goes blind. But as mentioned before, Sasuke already was having similar eye problems after his fight with Kirabi as Itachi had during the final battle.

Originally Posted by syx

No, I'm not talking about the seals, which let him break the connection between him and Kabuto. This had nothing to do with the seals. I don't say he broke ET with his willpower, I'm saying that he put his soul back in ET state with just willpower.

Sasuke's hatred determines his willpower, the more hatred he feels the stronger he/his willpower gets.

Madara didn't break the connection between him and Kabuto, else he wouldn't have been released when Itachi had Kabuto release all the Edo summons. His soul return back into the Edo body because he preformed the seals of Edo Tensei to summon himself.

Which doesn't have little to do with his Susanoo changing and that breaking him free.

Originally Posted by syx

What do you mean with general? Those are above average sensing skills, even by ninja, Jounin and possibly Kage standards. Besides I'm not saying that Itachi has sensing "Jutsus"/abilities like Naruto, Nagato or Shi. When I talk about Itachi's "sensing skills", I'm referring to his five senses (excluding the eyes in my examples).
Even if he saw the Kage Bunshins before, he was still able to pinpoint both of them with kunais at the same spot without the help of his eyes.

The fifth example proves that he couldn't see anything, otherwise his statement that he feels the Hydra Jutsu wouldn't make sense.

Seriously, it makes absolutely no sense to say something like this, even if he could see a little bit.

We've seen several non-sensor ninjas shown able to feel chakra, especially malevolent chakra. Kakashi and Kabuto have both done so. I called them general because they're not the same as those shown by actual sensor ninjas. And Itachi's skill at hitting a target with a kunai is well documented.

Nagato felt out Amaterasu and he could see. Anyway, Itachi's words seem like simple acknowledgement of the specific technique, one he seemingly experience before, else it would have made more sense to simply mention Orochimaru himself as oppose to the technique.