I wonder if anyone can tell me if this is a RMLI uniform circa 1901 - 1903? I have a WW1 DCM to a Serjeant of the RFA (15947 Sjt Charles John Alfred Nelson, of D Battery 160 Bde RFA),who served in the RMLI between 1901 - 1913. This picture appears to be of him and I would be very grateful if anyone could confirm the uniform.

Many thanks in advance, Owen

The farther backward you can look, the farther forward you are likely to see (Sir Winston Churchill)

John, many thanks for taking the time to respond. Whilst confirming it is not RMLI, I think you are also saying that the photo pre dates 1881? In which case, it definitely isn't my man (he was born in 1883). More research down the family line required.

Thanks again,

Owen

The farther backward you can look, the farther forward you are likely to see (Sir Winston Churchill)

Given that date of birth I think you can certainly dismiss the photograph as being him!

I would put the photograph anywhere between 1874 and 1881. Unfortunately the photograph is damaged where his regimental badge would appeared on his glengarry cap, which might have assist in identifying his unit. The collar badges are somewhat indistinct which does help matters either.

Regards,

John Y.

Not theirs to save the day but where they stood, falling, to dye the earthwith brave men's blood for England's sake and duty...

grumpy wrote:Worth adding the complication that the cuff lace design was in common use in India on the scarlet frock 5 button until 1914 at least.

Thanks Grumpy...all these elements/clues will hopefully help. No evidence that my man was in India - he saw service with RMLI between 1901 and 1913, then joined the RFA in 1914, for the duration of the war. Whilst with RMLI, it appears he was UK shore based apart from two tours on HMS Implacable (in Gibraltar with the ship for the 1911 Census) and HMS Glory.

I have ordered Charles John Alfred Nelson's birth certificate, but Ancestry have the father as Charles Edward Nelson...so remain a bit confused. Let's see.

Owen

The farther backward you can look, the farther forward you are likely to see (Sir Winston Churchill)

Before anyone points out that the photo was not taken in India [see the back!] the rules for clothing soldiers going Home to India, and India to Home, were complicated by the fact that the sets of uniforms were funded separately but there was a need for thrift.Thus a soldier Tour-Ex India was expected to wear his India frock at Home, with extra lining added at Home, for warmth. These apparent anomalies do occasionally show up, usually one man in a group photo.

I am not deliberately muddying the waters, just noting aloud that pre-1881 style cuffs are not fully diagnostic of date.

Perhaps in trying to date the photograph it is worth looking at the actual photographer. On the 1871 and 1881 census' the photographer is at the address in Grantham, but in 1891 the family has moved to Nottingham. What is less conclusive is the photographer Thomas Vipond is missing from the family group, but his wife Eleanor is still shown as 'married' and not widowed.

The Indian frock referred to by Grumpy had scarlet cuffs matching the body of the garment, so I think that can be discounted.

Other than this, the trefoil knot shown is a pre-1881 feature, as are the 'tabs' on the collar. Due to the use of orthochromatic film, facing colours that appear 'off-white' as shown here are really limited to light-mid blue and buff/cream/fawn ect. I think it's pretty certain this photo is a British regular dating from before facings and cuff decoration were simplified in 1881.

As others have noted, the trefoil continued in use after 1881 for (a) RMLI, (b) Canadian Militia, (c) Channel Islands Militia, (d) the Indian pattern frock (e) a small number of rifle volunteer corps such as the 3rd Lanarkshire (f) certain colonial units such as the Trinidad Light Infantry, Belize Light Infantry, Malay States Guides, etc. However, none of these are compatible with the pale facings shown in the photo.

Many thanks for the information T, I'm grateful to you for taking the time and interest. Seems that Pte Charles John Alfred Nelson RMLI, did serve on board ship in the Far East (China Station) for some years (between 1902 - 1905), including on HMS Amphetrite. But, it's all a bit academic as the picture predates his service by at least 20 years.

Thanks again,

Owen

The farther backward you can look, the farther forward you are likely to see (Sir Winston Churchill)