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Tim, I don't believe we have had any complaints about you but we certainly have concerning others who are maybe more aggressive and more prolific in their buying and selling. The problem is that your attitude is not representative in wishing others good luck in getting a good price - it does generate bad feeling and sometimes people don't complain publicly but are upset inside.

In the end it is down to the buyer to do what they want to with whatever they have bought but all we are asking is that if they are aiming to make a short term profit, to do it outside of the this site. I think that is more than reasonable.

And the question has to be asked - if you buy and sell so much gear, what do you do with it? Do you use it? If so why not get involved in showing your photography or at the very least get involved in discussions about others' photos or help/ask for help concerning gear or photography?

Ian

I have always bought lots of lenses digital and manual used them traded them sold them etc. If you looked at my profile on DPreview from 2005 you would see this . I think quite a lot of people do this. I do show my pics when I have time not many if any here but lots on dpreview and other sites flickr / artwanted etc . Most with Olympus cameras. I do also do some additional buying and selling on ebay sometimes and sure I make a bit of money . I deal with Olympus gear due to its reliability VS other brands . I dont buy and sell for profit on this forum . I am not a full time trader more a now and again for a few months at a time trader on ebay . I do use a lot of the gear as well.

I dont think my attitude is a bad one at all . Generally I have only seen things sold on here for the market rate or just below market rate . If someone buys something for say £100 here and its actually worth £200 if they then decide to sell it after a few months as they don't use it or dont want it then should they have to sell it for half the market rate so they don't make a profit?
Doesnt make any sense to me . I am also guessing lots of us not just me have bought a bargain or two off ebay and then ended up re-selling it some time later for a healthy profit

I do kind of understand what you are trying to do but generally people will only buy & sell for around the market rate and for what they deem to be fair
I just think that there really isn't that much of a problem but then I havent been around here all the time .

I can also see just from this thread that I am not the only one to have a similar thinking in this matter. Still I appreciate you are doing what you think is best

FWIW, I don't show many photos on here 'cos I use Flickr and ipernity and the various Meetup Groups of which I am a member. The photos shown here don't go full-size (or, if they do, I don't know how to access full-sized versions), and the interface to upload them and show them off is not particularly intuitive, and navigation is a nightmare.

I like to contribute to critique in the LIF Thread - but would be even happier giving more detailed critique if I could see more detail in those shots.

As for selling / buying, which is what this thread is about, I can see both sides. I personally would not be happy getting paid more for something I'd bought here; I would tend to avoid somebody who I noticed had a bit of a track record of making a bit extra from members' lower pricing. But have been criticised when I've pointed out in threads that I think a price is too low ! I'm one for transparency in all dealings, and other fora, where deals are made in the open, do have a certain appeal to me :-)

But not all fora are the same, and a bunch of slightly condescending moderators here, a gaggle of laughing moderators there, adds to the variety of life online.

The bottom line here Tim is that you apparently purchase photography gear with the intent of re-selling it. You had 128 posts on your statistics with the vast majority in the For Sale board, so combine these with your admitted Ebay and DPreview sales and that in my considered opinion means you are a prolific dealer no matter how much you protest.

This unique and excellent forum is mainly comprised of members who have a genuine interest in all things photographic, who contribute by joining in discussions, showing photos, evaluating and commenting on photos and are always ready and willing to offer help and advice when requested by members. I doubt very much that Ian or indeed Olympus ever envisaged the For Sale board would be used by prolific traders for the sole purpose of avoiding selling fees imposed elsewhere and indeed taxation. This problem has no doubt been made worse by Ebay insisting that prolific sellers now register as Business Sellers possibly as a result of pressure and interest from Inland Revenue

In my opinion, the forum For Sale section is for members who wish to advertise and sell items they originally purchased for their own use and now no longer use or need, and of course for other members to purchase such items if they so wish.

There are plenty of other sales outlets online which dealers can use to advertise items they have purchased with the intent of re-selling, but of course these will involve selling fees, restrictive rules and therefore reduced profits !

John

I am hardly a prolific seller sure I use and sell quite a lot of Olympus gear as I mentioned . You cant sell gear on DPREVIEW i actually said I used to post a lot of photos there. I have never bought off here with the express intention of resell here for a profit as you can see from my record. I dont make a ton of cash off ebay anyway . I could have offered around 20 items on here but I listed two rarer ones that people might have been interested in at well below ebay prices. You seem to have missed my point completely . It doesnt really matter anyway .
Regards
Tim

lets be honest folks, life is all about trade.If we have a facility on the board to buy and sell then there will be a distribution of users in that section from those who spend a lot of effort making a small profit to those who buy the odd item at what they are happy to pay.
This is a relatively small board so we kinda trust each other when it comes to transactions at present, but it will outgrow that if the status quo persists.
Options:
the one of least effort is to close all transactions
you could make all transactions be out in the open. This requires the mods to patrol the pm's in some way
an Ebay style where users are openly shown to be trading and how much trade they have done. Lot of work and kind of gets away from the point of the board...but do you have it as a facility?
... while the majority of members will use the what ever you have in place within the spirit intended there will be those who will push the limits.
I know several people who 'wheel and deal' on auction sites as a hobby to make a little money on the side so as with Facebook and Twitter the practice is mainstream.

And to declare: I have not sold on this board. I have bought several items from this board

FWIW, I don't show many photos on here 'cos I use Flickr and ipernity and the various Meetup Groups of which I am a member. The photos shown here don't go full-size (or, if they do, I don't know how to access full-sized versions), and the interface to upload them and show them off is not particularly intuitive, and navigation is a nightmare.

I like to contribute to critique in the LIF Thread - but would be even happier giving more detailed critique if I could see more detail in those shots.

As for selling / buying, which is what this thread is about, I can see both sides. I personally would not be happy getting paid more for something I'd bought here; I would tend to avoid somebody who I noticed had a bit of a track record of making a bit extra from members' lower pricing. But have been criticised when I've pointed out in threads that I think a price is too low ! I'm one for transparency in all dealings, and other fora, where deals are made in the open, do have a certain appeal to me :-)

But not all fora are the same, and a bunch of slightly condescending moderators here, a gaggle of laughing moderators there, adds to the variety of life online.

I like to contribute to critique in the LIF Thread - but would be even happier giving more detailed critique if I could see more detail in those shots.

This might not be the best place to add this...maybe it should be a new thread, but I have to agree with this opinion...it doesn't seem particularly relevant offering critique on images shown at 800x600 as downsizing to those sort of dimensions can hide image blur, noise, and bad post processing amongst other things.

I would much rather see more links to Flickr (I restrict 'randomers' to 1600 size, but allow my followers to view my images at full resolution), or even better for this forum, to see the 512kb file size limit increased - I know this would have an impact on storage space, but allowing much larger resolutions to be used would surely enable much more relevant critiquing, which seems quite important for a photography forum?

Here is one of Andy Elliot's shots posted to the FTU gallery (same gallery system as we have here) - 316K 1280x960:

You aren't limited to 800x600 on the e-group gallery, but if you post very large dimension images you won't be able to see the whole image on the screen - even if you have a 1920x1080 screen, which is now the most prolific type.

You can of course show Flickr images here on the forum.

Ian

Quote:

Originally Posted by themosttogain

This might not be the best place to add this...maybe it should be a new thread, but I have to agree with this opinion...it doesn't seem particularly relevant offering critique on images shown at 800x600 as downsizing to those sort of dimensions can hide image blur, noise, and bad post processing amongst other things.

I would much rather see more links to Flickr (I restrict 'randomers' to 1600 size, but allow my followers to view my images at full resolution), or even better for this forum, to see the 512kb file size limit increased - I know this would have an impact on storage space, but allowing much larger resolutions to be used would surely enable much more relevant critiquing, which seems quite important for a photography forum?

The only drawback to posting large dimensions is when you come to view the forum on a tablet. The image is fine - but it doesn't half shrink the text! (Should have gone to Specsavers) But I think we're getting a little off-topic...

TimPhoto, the original debate was aimed at me, the other Tim, as I as the was the one who started this trying to sell the Em5 for a high price.

We seem to be fighting a moral high ground.
Putting this in perspective, I was asking for £100 more than I paid for it. Agreed, cheeky but I've gone over that already.
Look at my stats and see that I have offered forum members good gear in the past, all at lower prices than I paid for them. We are talking about a handful of items. I made my case which I stand by.
Maybe double standards here, I'm sure all the critics here who have bought gear were happy with their purchases. But now you don't want people to offer you good kit if they have not been posting. How many people can honestly say they have not put items for sale on other sites, if so were they actively contributing to those sites?
If a price is too high I just ignore it. If someone sells my gear for a higher price then I'm not bothered. How many people have bought from TimPhoto, you were happy then. If you don't want traders (I'm not classing TimPhoto as anything, thats for you to decide) then make that a proper decision. Don't hide behind this finger pointing attitude of rule breaking when the rules don't really seem to exist.
I'm sure all those buyers who bought from me did not care if I had contributed with other posts on the forum or not.
Ian asks what do we do with our cameras if we keep changing… I've covered my reasons for that.
It seems to me many photographers buy a lot of gear, bodies, lens and flashes. So is all this gear being used? There also seems a strong trend that as soon as a new camera comes out with good reviews people want to suddenly upgrade. These actions provide a bigger second hand market. The very fact you want to buy gear gives TimPhoto or others the opportunity to sell gear on to those who may want to get into photography or upgrade at good costs, which in turn hopefully brings more people to the forum. Fairplay there are still no advertisements here.

If you don't like the shop window don't go in. If no one buys from people selling who have a history of buying and selling then they will move elsewhere, it's easy to check stats in the profile. You look at people's selling history on Ebay… I hope.., so no one is really being conned.

Re tax you have to be making £8,500 (I think), buying then selling at at a potential loss does not count. I have a thought for you. How many people have had a trade job done for cash to save a few pounds?
Likely you have contributed to their non payment of taxes. Again potential double standards, but that's life.. I'd rather pay the full cost if I know the taxes are being paid.

Just for the record I'm happy for restrictions but make them clear. My thought is to have a posting record of say 6 posts outside the Classifieds before you can sell. I appreciate all posts are hard to Moderate but the way people are selling nowadays is changing rapidly and Moderators should find ways of keeping up.

Well I've got other things to worry about so I hope there is a satisfactory outcome. Happy to contribute in the near future. Regards. 'the other' Tim…
It's good to raise this debate, no harm done…
Ps OMD EM5 in London shops, second hand are going from £449-£549 so I still stand by my original pricing and reasons.

Last edited by timclarkih; 20th February 2014 at 11:10 AM.
Reason: typo

@timclarkih - I am impressed that you have been respectful and understanding in response to this initiative and I really do hope that we can sort something out.

I do want to clarify a few points though; it wasn't just you that has influenced all this, it has been brewing for a long time and there are several others who have been highlighted. Of course you are completely free to go and sell items off-site for what ever price you can get. But to sell anything bought from a member here for a profit relatively soon after purchasing it will likely generate bad feeling and justifiably so. Secondly, it also generates bad feeling if members only use the forum for trading. The sales/wants section was only provided as a mechanism for members to offer their gear to other members in a small scale way without generating bad feeling and this is understandable, too.

As has been mentioned - some forums don't allow trading at all.

Finally, there will be no 'witch-hunt' - if we have conderns will politely and privately raise them with individuals concerned and seek to achieve agreement and understanding in a civil manner.

I mostly have used this site for buying and selling, but not because I have been making a profit, actually I've lost about £800 over the year on Olympus kit.

My wife has an OMD E-M5, which she loves, and I have a longstanding love of OM gear. I tried to make the OMD E-M1 work for me, and I still think its a great system, but in the end I decided to get a Leica M to complement my M Monochrom, rather than continue to run two systems. That meant I needed to sell some stuff on....

I dont post much in the way of images on forums as I prefer meeting with friends, my local photo group (NOT a camera club) and workshops to get feedback on my work.

I have made a tidy profit selling those bloody cloths on here, not enough to worry the tax man but enough to buy a lens. I was "trading" no doubt about it but didn't feel guilty as I felt what I was selling was good value. (once interest had waned on here I sold them a lot quicker elsewhere)

I have bought cameras and lenses here and also sold

I posted the wrong lens to someone once, doh! Because this is a nice place it was sorted out painlessly.

My point is I like looking at what is offered and what is bought I see no downside to a fairly free market, buyers and sellers make their own decisions, of note there seems to have been little or no fraudulent activity and agreed prices have resulted in goods delivered.

To me, with agreed being the operative word, that is a win win. I wouldn't buy Tim's camera on principal but hope he would still be allowed to post the ad in future.

__________________
hearts at peace under an English heaven

Last edited by sponner; 22nd February 2014 at 03:27 AM.
Reason: because i cannot get there and their right

I have probably posted in the For Sale threads more than the others because I don't feel my work is comparable to the standard displayed here. I have traded through the forum to upgrade my kit but I don't think I have made a profit on anything - actually looking around my photography shelf I still seem to have most of it!

There are opportunities to buy equipment at competitive prices that is likely to have been well looked after rather than taking a chance on purchasing from other sites. Seeing a brand new member with few posts listing kit for sale is no different than buying from ebay. We are still a small enough forum that you get to know the members by what they post and can make a decision accordingly. I completely agree with Homer's observation about a forum member and his evident change of position from buying to selling (actually whilst this annoys me - the word missing from the motto in his signature block annoys me more!).

My point is that we as members can choose what to buy. Look at the recent glut of EPL-5s that people couldn't sell. Cameras were being offered at a quarter of the price but everyone was waiting for the EM1/10 and so on. I don't think there is a problem with the way that this forum works. As it grows in membership there is bound to be some erosion in what some may consider fine 'values and standards' but would you prefer a small elitist clique?

If you don't like the sellers methods, his principles or his price - don't buy! He will either come on board to the community way of thinking or give up and go elsewhere.

I think there is something in the idea of posting several times on topics outside of the for Sale forum before being able to sell but this could just generate spam.

Apologies, rant over.

Right, I am going to look at some lovely phots and stop myself getting irritated by this thread becoming bigger than Ben Hur ( I am aware of the irony that by posting I am contributing to it)!