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Re: The best equipment for a stoneforge package

There are so many differing opinions on equipment packages, its pretty frustrating. Many have very solid arguments but there is one argument I particularly find infuriating: batterskull goes into every deck running 4 sfm.

Ok I have a foil batterskull and am itching to use it so not having an expensive standard card is not the argument. Ive tested It in uw stoneblade where it is an excellent card which gives me a big efficient body. I also have misstep to protect sfm and brainstorm to shuffle away batterskull when I don't have stoneforge. No argument here, its very strong.

I have also played it in gw mystic and wb deadguy. It is terrible in both these decks, seriously. I never have body problems in both these creature filled decks so batterskull's usefulness drops. Also, I cant prevent my opponent from frying my mystic without force/misstep. Topdecking batterskull without mystic is one of the most annoying things ever.

Worst of all, sometimes I manage to get batterskull down and IT DOESN'T WIN ME THE GAME. It's a freaking exalted rwm with vigilance. That is not enough to win games. I still die to merfolk/goblin alpha strikes after they reach critical mass. I still get raped by tarmogoyfs and kotrs while they leave one back to block batterskull.

I had batterskull in my deck for a long time (ugh... cawblade influence) Only when I started to search for sobm and jitte most of the time, did I realize what a Meh Card batterskull is in creature heavy decks. It's not terrible, it's just cuttable and cut it I did.

Re: The best equipment for a stoneforge package

Goblins does not lose to Batterskull. I do not think anyone who says this has actually tested it against a competent opponent. Even in a bad situation Goblins tends to have a million bodies to spare and can easily let you gain twenty life, stabilize, gain control of the board and murder you in 1-2 turn, fuck your 40 point life total.

Re: The best equipment for a stoneforge package

Piledriver does stupid, stupid things if left unchecked. Also, with most Goblins lists maining 4 Gempalms and 1-2 Tin Street Hooligans, things are looking grim for equipment based decks.

*EDIT:
I love the arguments here for Batterskull. -sarcasm-

Originally Posted by ktkenshinx

The Reserved List is a) not legally binding, b) antiquated, c) broken, and d) preventative of maximum game enjoyment. Wizards will remove as many cards from that list as possible to increase the fun of their game. Using market research, they can find a balance between printing enough cards to lower a price from $40 to $15-$20, and not utterly ruining their value. This will be both an economically feasible AND sensible move.
-ktkenshinx-

Re: The best equipment for a stoneforge package

I actually played quite a few games with and against the SFM+Batterskull plan.

For decks with counterspell back up, mainly Standstill control and UWx tempo decks, Batterskull is your best tutor target since it acts as a Tinkerable Baneslayer Angel. Plus with Force of Will, Mental Misstep and sometimes Daze(in the UWX tempo decks) your Stoneforge is easy to protect so that you can untap with it.

As for non-blue decks like Junk or Zoo, Stoneforge Mystic is a great card and you should probably play it. But I don't think Batterskull is reliable enough against control decks since you don't have counterspells to protect your Stoneforge Mystic.
Basically they kill your Stoneforge, you are stuck with a dead Batterskull that you can't cast and then they kill you with Jace TMS.

Atm I think your Stoneforge Mystic package for non-blue decks should start with a Sword of Body and Mind+Jitte/Sword of Fire and Ice/Sword of Feast and Famine.

But really, its kinda absurd that blue decks now have a Tinkerable Baneslayer Angel. Okay maybe Tinker is 10 times better than Stoneforge, but a tutor and mana reduction in one card is pretty unreal as seen in the past.

Re: The best equipment for a stoneforge package

It wholly depends on the deck and the applications. I wouldn't run Batterskull paired with SFM in Zoo for instance, but I do run it in Maverick. The issue isn't having bodies to equip, but rather that Maverick can take the control role in some matchups. There are also many situations where you need a BIG body to be a force in combat, and haven't drawn your fatties yet.

In Zoo this isn't a problem, since all the creatures are 2/3 or larger.

Re: The best equipment for a stoneforge package

But you guys seem to forget one thing - even if you play SFM, look for Batterskull, and you SFM gets Sworded - they used just a removal for a 1/2 and you can still play the Batterskull later on - Even i can do that - Deadguylist with 19 lands
So its still you play a card, + get an additional, your opponents removes yours, but youve still made a single card advantage - and it is not dead all over the time.

And ive tested all SoXaY in my DGA, and just considering the abilities - not the prot as its metabased - SoFaI got the best abilities if you ask me.

Re: The best equipment for a stoneforge package

I think Grafted Wargear is under rated, in a deck like Zoo with Kird Apes and Loam Lions that get out classed by aggro-control's creatures on turns two and three, a +3/2 equipment that doesn't lose tempo vs removal and doesn't require you to sacrifice a creature and re-equip to put counters on it is pretty solid. A 5/5 is nothing to sneeze at considering it runs over Batterskull and most Tarmogoyfs.

Re: The best equipment for a stoneforge package

The arguments against Batterskull are still as worthless as in the Batterskull thread. In has proven its worth in tournament and testing by multiple players enough.

Every Batterskull pack starts with 1 Jitte, 1 Batterskull and the rest is up to the Meta and the deck itself. Sometimes it is simple logic like that in a deck with 4 Mirran Crusader you don't need a Pro:Green Sword as much as in other decks and that in the Batterstill deck the BW/Sword will underperform due to lack of targets for recursion. In other cases simple testing helps a lot. Which Sword is needed and which not is a very complicated topic and discussing it will not be of any help because there are enough arguments for every Sword.
In my Maverick I play SoFaI and SoBaM in the main and a SoLaS in the side.

Re: The best equipment for a stoneforge package

That is what every Batterskull pack starts with, I guess.

It's ridiculous on its face to say that Batterskull has proven anything. The card has been played a lot for a host of reasons and hasn't performed particularly well relative to its popularity. A number of SFM decks outside of straight UW control have already dropped the card.

Re: The best equipment for a stoneforge package

Performance on a large scale aside, I can only attest to how Batterskull's done for me, which is fantastic. To me, it has hands down locked down being the second best equipment in Legacy, and to me is an auto-include in any 4 Stoneforge package right after Umezawa's Jitte.

My Maverick deck's package is Umezawa's Jitte, Batterskull, Batterskull. I find Sword of X and Y all not to be up to task in the deck (Feast and Famine's the only close one for me due to the ridiculous Knight of the Reliquary synergy.)

In Deadguy Ale, my package is Umezawa's Jitte, Batterskull, Sword of Fire and Ice. Two Batterskulls is too risky with blind Confidants to me. I'm not necessarily sold on the SOFI, but I feel like I want a third equipment and I like it better than the other four Swords. If it keeps being subpar, though, I may make it a second Jitte, just to win Stoneforge wars.

Originally Posted by majikal

Damn it, Taco, that exactly sums up my opinion on the matter. I need to buy you a beer for that post.

Re: The best equipment for a stoneforge package

Performance on a large scale is not the same thing as people playing a card on a large scale and that card performing exactly in keeping with its penetration of the field despite the absence of meaningful hate.

Performance on a large scale is a deck like Merfolk, which puts up positive win percentages despite being hated on by much of the format.

It is absolutely meaningless to have a conversation where people do not grasp this distinction.

Re: The best equipment for a stoneforge package

Originally Posted by TheInfamousBearAssassin

Performance on a large scale is not the same thing as people playing a card on a large scale and that card performing exactly in keeping with its penetration of the field despite the absence of meaningful hate.

Performance on a large scale is a deck like Merfolk, which puts up positive win percentages despite being hated on by much of the format.

It is absolutely meaningless to have a conversation where people do not grasp this distinction.

Notice the part where he said to put "performance on a large scale" aside. Meaning he does not give a shit about "performance on a large scale." He said, PERSONALLY (as in, his experience, which no one can refute or deny), Batterskull was nuts. If I was playing Maverick (never going to happen), then I probably not play Batterskull, but that is irrelevant to the point he was trying to make. He was merely giving his opinion, based on his personal experiences, regarding Batterskull.

Re: The best equipment for a stoneforge package

Originally Posted by HAVE HEART

Notice the part where he said to put "performance on a large scale" aside. Meaning he does not give a shit about "performance on a large scale." He said, PERSONALLY (as in, his experience, which no one can refute or deny), Batterskull was nuts. If I was playing Maverick (never going to happen), then I probably not play Batterskull, but that is irrelevant to the point he was trying to make. He was merely giving his opinion, based on his personal experiences, regarding Batterskull.

But that doesn't help IBA make his point which is that IBA is right and everyone else is wrong. Therefore, it is disregarded.

Originally Posted by Ertai's Familiar

Originally Posted by DragoFireheart

Interestingly enough, I would argue that BS is the Dark Ritual in this case.

Re: The best equipment for a stoneforge package

Originally Posted by CorpT

But that doesn't help IBA make his point which is that IBA is right and everyone else is wrong. Therefore, it is disregarded.

Or I am not a gibbering retard, so I realize that when someone brings up a thing and then says to put it aside they are actually trying to use that thing as a point. So it is not putting it aside because they are the ones that brought it up.

Like if I said, "The fact that your mother is a hooker aside, your posts are terrible," your mother's career in nightwalkery is not actually an aside because it is new information I have introduced strictly to color the conversation as a personal attack.

Re: The best equipment for a stoneforge package

This conversation features the favorite sin of people: Referring to stuff as absolute truth without taking into consideration that there are so many variables ranging from minor tweaks in decklists to how random and different metagames can be, that it is absolutely retarded to try to act like there was some universal optimal configuration for decks with infinite minor differences. The first huge problem is just lumping all GW decks in one group and trying to discuss that. Talk about being vague.

I can agree on Sword of Body and Mind being the most useless sword ever, but just calling for example Sword of Light and Shadow unplayable is only lack of perspective. It has relevant protections and in a metagame full of Stoneforge Mystics and equipment as well as decks based on having high concentration of artifacts, I can easily see stuff like continuous Pridemage activations it enables being gamebreaking. Or returning Faerie Macabre, or just chaining a stream of any threats to overwhelm opponents.

Of course Batterskull is really good. The thing is that it's only really good when you have a Mystic out, and I wouldn't count on my 1/2 monster surviving too long when everybody is expecting them and building decks and sideboards accordingly. When it works, it's awesome, though. Same can be said of course about every sword also, with the notable exception of Body and Mind.

Re: The best equipment for a stoneforge package

I find it funny that you request that we not dismiss all swords yet you yourself dismiss sobam which many here consider the best/2nd best sword. I am not sold on batterskull outside uwx shells, period. Jitte is still equipment número uno with batterskull/sobam very close behind it. Sofi, sols, soff and basilisk collar have some uses but are pretty narrow. Sword of war and peace is the narrow-est definitely.

Most of the people who are extremely pro batterskull really underestimate the power level of legacy and what an equipment really needs to do: win the game. Jitte and sobam/sofi provide incremental advantage everytime they connect. This builds up, swinging the game in your favor. Batterskull swings for 4 and gains you some life at first, later in the game it becomes extremely useless

Think about it, is 4 mana for a 4/4 vigilance lifelinker that impressive? That's what batterskull pretty much is. If you are uw and you want batterskull to help you survive to the late game, that's a fair deal. If you are gw aggro with the gsz + 1/2 tarmogoyf build and need a body, I think batterskull is a fair choice (though I really think playing less than 4 goyf is not a good idea).

Re: The best equipment for a stoneforge package

I find it funny that you request that we not dismiss all swords yet you yourself dismiss sobam which many here consider the best/2nd best sword. I am not sold on batterskull outside uwx shells, period. Jitte is still equipment número uno with batterskull/sobam very close behind it. Sofi, sols, soff and basilisk collar have some uses but are pretty narrow. Sword of war and peace is the narrow-est definitely.

Most of the people who are extremely pro batterskull really underestimate the power level of legacy and what an equipment really needs to do: win the game. Jitte and sobam/sofi provide incremental advantage everytime they connect. This builds up, swinging the game in your favor. Batterskull swings for 4 and gains you some life at first, later in the game it becomes extremely useless

Think about it, is 4 mana for a 4/4 vigilance lifelinker that impressive? That's what batterskull pretty much is. If you are uw and you want batterskull to help you survive to the late game, that's a fair deal. If you are gw aggro with the gsz + 1/2 tarmogoyf build and need a body, I think batterskull is a fair choice (though I really think playing less than 4 goyf is not a good idea).

Re: The best equipment for a stoneforge package

Originally Posted by ivanpei

I find it funny that you request that we not dismiss all swords yet you yourself dismiss sobam which many here consider the best/2nd best sword.

I definitely have noticed some people liking it in some weird context. That's the thing: if it's good, it's good in some narrow deck having problems mostly with green and blue creatures. In no way can you say that it's the best sword, as you can't say that about any of them. Still you do and the reasoning is not valid.

If you on average already destroy blue decks and creature decks, SoBM is absolutely useless and shouldn't be played, countering your point of it being the best sword ever. It also has an ability that can actually help the opponent to win.

I only wanted to address the thought that people are trying to construct a universally perfect combination of equipment. I tend to think that due to many reasons, it is impossible and the equipment package should be considered case by case based on actual deck lists, historical and/or expected performance and metagame.