Biting the hand of Project Fear

Lying until they’re red white and blue in the face

Well now we know. The Supreme Court has ruled that the Westminster Parliament must have a voice on triggering Article 50 and starting the Brexit process, and that Theresa May cannot take us out of the EU and undo law and strip civil and legal rights without legislation. This is to be welcomed. But there was a less welcome message in the Supreme Court’s ruling. The British state has now achieved a legal ruling that in law, in fact, and in practice, Scotland isn’t an equal partner in a family of nations after all. The Sewell Convention which was written into the Scotland Act has no legal force, no meaning, and exists merely as window dressing to disguise Scotland’s powerlessness with nice words that have no effect.

Scotland isn’t a much loved and respected part of a Union whose voice must be heard and whose opinions and views must be taken into account. Scotland is in fact merely a region, a glorified county, a tartan ribbon making a pretty bow on the package of Britishness. Rejoice in your inferior status Scotland. Being British means Scotland is not a country and its status as a nation has no legal meaning. Welcome to monolithic Unionism where the monolith will crush all life and distinctiveness from you.

The Supreme Court has decided that the Westminster Parliament must have a vote on triggering Article 50, but when it comes to having a voice on major changes to the devolution settlement that could strip the Scottish Parliament of important rights and Scottish people of important rights, the law says that Scotland, along with Wales and Northern Ireland, can go screw itself. Your opinion, Scotland, is not required. If you look up the Sewell Convention in a dictionary of legal terms, you won’t find it.

We know now that when the Unionist parties swore that they were enshrining the permanency and powers of the Scottish Parliament into law, that it was just meaningless cant, a sleight of words to confuse and mislead, a deceit. The Supreme Court of the UK has ruled that a power devolved is a power retained by Westminster, and that Westminster needn’t even bother consulting Scotland if it decides to revoke or change those powers. The Scotland Bill is based on a lie and empty rhetoric than means nothing. It’s fine words to soothe but which have no meaning or force. The Sewell Convention is worthless verbiage whose purpose was to placate Scotland. We didn’t get the permanency of the Scottish Parliament, we got a carrot on a stick that forever remains out of reach, an unreachable treat to keep the donkey of Unionism on the road to submission.

We were promised that Scotland would get the most powerful devolved parliament in the world, but the unelected unrepresentative House of Lords, stuffed full of Tory and Labour party donors, rich businessmen, and Michelle Mone, has more say over devolution than the Scottish Parliament itself. Estonia, Latvia, Lithuania, Luxembourg, Malta, Slovenia, Croatia, all countries which have fewer people than Scotland, will have a seat at the table during Brexit negotiations and will infinitely more power over the future of Scotland than the people of Scotland themselves. Even the Belgian regions of Wallonia and Flanders have more power over Scotland’s future than Scotland does, because those regions have the legal right to veto any Brexit deal that they don’t like. Never mind not having a right to veto a deal that could cause immense damage to our economy and society, Scotland doesn’t even have the right to voice an opinion, doesn’t have the right to be consulted, doesn’t have the right to a say.

They told us we could have the nearest thing possible to federalism. But you can’t have federalism in a state where one of the members is larger than the rest combined and which believes that it has an inalienable right to impose its views on the others. If Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland cannot prevent England going down a particular path, but England can always drag the other three along with it irrespective of their own views, we are not talking about a Union. We’re talking about a state with its subordinate quasi-colonial possessions. That’s not what was on offer from the Better Together campaign back in 2014, but that’s what they have delivered. Scotland’s role in this so-called Union is to make Britain look diverse and mask the ugliness of English nationalism with a veneer of Britishness that English nationalists can use as a comfort blanket to tell themselves that their nationalism isn’t nationalist at all. And if you’re a Scottish Unionist, you’re helping them in their delusion, and you’re deluding yourself that you’re opposing nationalism when all you’re doing is to foster someone else’s.

This is not the Union that Scotland was promised in 2014 in return for a No vote. This is not the safety and security of EU membership they told us a No vote would achieve. This is not the Scotland which is a much loved and respected equal partner in the great project of Britishness. This is not the Scotland whose parliament and legal rights are enshrined permanently in legislation beyond the reach of capricious British governments which Scotland didn’t vote for. We are living in a bunting bedecked lie. They lied until they were red white and blue in the face. The only surprising thing is that the liars and cheats who drafted the infamous vow didn’t expect that they’d be found out so quickly. They sold us a lie. They sold us a cheat. They deceived, they dissembled. Democracy is dead if the people can be sold a lie and not have any redress. If the powerful cannot be held to account then the people are chattel. There must be another referendum.

The UK won’t respect Scotland. Their judges have ruled that there is no reason to grant Scotland respect, no reason to give Scotland a hearing. Today’s the day that Scotland’s No voters discovered that the UK is not a Union of equals after all, and they’ve only got their cognitive dissonance as a comfort. Scotland won’t get a voice in the UK, we know that now. The only way in which Scotland’s voice can be heard is to stop the pretence that Britain speaks for Scotland and to start to speak for ourselves. It’s time for a second independence referendum.

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Exactly let’s leave little england to its own tory governments and build our own scotland by getting independence and let’s remember the eu is a bigger trade partner than the uk (carwen Jones said that on the Sunday politics) when unionists cry the uk is Scotlands biggest trade partner as they will at some point knowing them

“One small victory for the government” quote from Laura Kuenssberg on the ruling that the Scottish Government does not have to be consulted on the process of ripping Scotland out of the EU against the will of the Scottish people. We are only a small problem and so can be ignored.

The BBC has consistently referred to “the devolved assemblies” in the Scottish Politics programme today. Again we are being consigned to a subordinate role in patronising tones. We have a Scottish Parliament and if the Unionists had any respect for Scotland they would refer to it as such.

This is an extract from the 97 pages of the Supreme Court opinion as it relates to the Sewel Convention:

“[A] fundamental difference between the legal, that is the
statutory and common law rules of the constitution, and the
conventional rules is that, while a breach of the legal rules,
whether of statutory or common law nature, has a legal
consequence in that it will be restrained by the courts, no such
sanction exists for breach or non-observance of the
conventional rules. The observance of constitutional
conventions depends upon the acceptance of the obligation of
conformance by the actors deemed to be bound thereby. When
this consideration is insufficient to compel observance no court
may enforce the convention by legal action. The sanction for
non-observance of a convention is political in that disregard of
a convention may lead to political defeat, to loss of office, or to
other political consequences, but will not engage the attention
of the courts which are limited to matters of law alone. Courts,
however, may recognise the existence of conventions …”

Isolate only these words … “no court may enforce the convention by legal action. The sanction for
non-observance of a convention is political in that disregard of a convention may lead to political defeat, to loss of office, or to other political consequences.”

Seems to me that the political consequences are kinda obvious, we have the highest Court ruling that we have no recognisable legal status, leaving us with the only way to exercise, and defend, our individual rights is through the political process. The sooner we start the better. Yes!!!

Events small in there own can have real consequences .
Angus Robertson ,question to the prime minster does she agree with the supreme court ruling that the Scottish Parliament has no legal standing and is a gift of the English parliament , which can be shutdown by said administration at any time ?
After Maydays answer all SNP MPs stand and walk out of the English Parliament , end this farce now .

Walk out of westminster because you cannot expect any result there. Do not answer the telephone, do not reply to mails. Close the Scottish office, disconnect their phone lines. Start urgent maintenance works on the roads leading to faslane and wake up Teresa every morning with bagpipes. Be bold, be creative in making your presence known.

And engineer a stand-off with Westminster next time there is an outrageous immigration deportation case by giving sanctuary at Bute House and returning any deportation documents served by the Home Office neatly shredded together with a framed photo of the immigrants having tea and scones with Nicola.

Recall our MPs to Holyrood into a parallel chamber (?) and proceed to abrogate the Treaty of Union which these imperialist AngloBritish judges with minority JockBrit membership of an imposed wannabe AngloBrit Supreme Court have just so blatantly violated in its urination upon the bipartite terms of agreement between two signatory founding nation states.

Ripped to shreds most very visibly.

Do so and in tandem deepen discussions with the EU re Scotland continuing as the continuator state. Ditto other current global organizations like the UN in full consultation with the electorate of the citizens of Scotland.

This abrogation and exit peaceful and in the spirit shared with us by our brothers, Mandela and Gandhi and our sisters across the globe and across time.

Unwelcome though the Supreme Court’s decision that the Westminster government has no legal obligation to consult the “devolved administrations” is ,it at least makes it crystal clear to all that our Scottish Parliament has little more status than a parish council, if that much. No-one, of whatever political persuasion, can now be in doubt that vows and promises of bestest ever devolved parliament, utopian federalism, scared union, etc., etc., are anything other than what many of us always knew they were, cynical, flagrant lies spouted to convince and reassure the fearties, the bigots and the self-serving that we’re “better together”. Now, we all know what’s at stake, no more pretence, no more “equal partners” and let’s just round that off, finally, by making sure that the response will be – no more U.K.

To any previous no voters scanning this thread. This is what it means, what it always meant in fact, to be better together.

Your vote – worthless. Your opinion – discounted. Your basic human rights – in the hands of those who use them for barter coin. THIS is the reality of the UK’s democratic deficit. YOU are not regarded as a partner. YOU are not regarded an equal. YOU, as a member of the Scottish electorate, are regarded as a second class citizen.

When voting on the UK government of the day. When voting on constitutional issues affecting the nations of the UK, including your own, your vote is for all intents and purposes NOT required.
‘Power devolved, is power retained not ceded’ Jack Straw.

The ONLY way you can alter that situation is by reclaiming the sovereignty you placed on loan with those unworthy of your trust.

I posted this a month or so back on this site:

This is the week we found out that the truth of the union, is that there is no union. There is no partnership, equal or otherwise. There is no family of nations, not on the political level and never was, only a means of asset management and crowd control. A long chain which Westminster may have called devolution, but still a chain for all that.

Now the good news.

That chain can be yanked in two directions. In fact in the right circumstance, as two years ago, it can be broken altogether. The laws, the procedures, the legislative bodies, the national and international precedents which brought about indyref 1 are still relevant today. The UN charter still recognises a population’s right to self determination and no one, not President, Prime Minister, First Minister or meeja mogul can deny the Scottish electorate their inalienable right to choose.

If you want your vote, your mandate, your basic human rights to matter, then by now you know what to do. Should the opportunity arise and our ‘devolved’ government in Holyrood asks the question? You and only you can mandate them to become our national government. To go from being a nation in a one sided union where your vote is regarded as an irrelevance, to once again become a nation state where that vote decides the nature of your government.

There’s a sting in the tail though. The full finding cites Rhodesia as an example of a similar convention in the past. It also mentions that whilst conventions are political rather than legal it reiterates that by saying that it’s the political fallout that governments should pay attention to when choosing to abandon them.

aye tomorrow would suit me its a shame half the bleedn country are blissfully unaware of what actually happened today , sheep and idiots come to mind , how many times do they need pissed on to finally start thinking hey thats not rain .

Would I like Scotland to become an independent country, definitely.
But I personally think it will be another No vote if (and that’s a big if) there is another referendum.
I am well aware that the reputation ofopinion polls have been tarnished with Trump and the leave vote, but on my travels around Scotland there is unfortunately no real change in people’s attitude towards independence.
I also cannot see Theresa May allowing another referendum.
I would love to be proved wrong but I predicted Donald Trump getting elected, Vote Leave and the Tories winning the GE in 2015.
All gauged from listening to what people were saying up and down the country.

Yes, I was, and voted Yes and will do again.
The Yes campaigners did a fine job in raising the Yes vote, and I’m sure they will again.
My opinion comes from travelling around Scotland, talking to various people. I would like to know what the plan is if Westminster do not allow another referendum, or if the SNP do not get a vote from MSP’s.
Again, do I want Scotland to become independent, yes definitely.

If I may interrupt. t’s highly unlikely a Holyrood vote on IndyRef2 will not be passed. Then the answer is to hold one anyway regardless of Westminster’s laws. Or, even better in my opinion, have Holyrood hold a straightforward vote on ending the union with England.

If we continue to play by westminster’s rules we will never regain our independence. I’m glad you’ll be voting Yes again. I’m glad you’ll support a vote by Holyrood to end the union with England. I’m glad you’re not feart.

Westminster cannot prevent another referendum. Westminster consent was sought last time in order to make the result of the referendum legally binding, but there’s nothing to prevent Holyrood bringing about a consultative referendum.

There will be a vote in favour of another referendum in Holyrood as the SNP and the Greens combined have an absolute majority. If anything, the Greens are at the moment more gung-ho for a referendum than the SNP is. The Greens have said they will support another referendum bill, so it will certainly get a majority.

I appreciate your fears and know that there is not (yet) an assured majority for independence, but please remember that we haven’t started a proper campaign yet. Last time we started the campaign with support for indy around 28% and ended up with 45%. This time we are starting with at least 45%. There’s a lot of work to do, but we can do it.

The Yes campaign did a fantastic job last time, definitely.
I am pretty sure that it was things like pensions and currency that tipped the balance last time (funny how The Isle of Man is forgotten)
I would say that Yes needs to concentrate on what made people vote No last time.
Out of all the countries that have gained independence in the last 100 years, I don’t think any would wish to go back.

Speculative perhaps, but don’t ignore how the 27 members of the EU may factor in the decision today, not least over both Scotland and Northern Ireland having voted to remain, and questions over the NI/Eire Border, it may well play a part in what happens next and there ain’t nothing Mrs May can do about it if they do – she can ignore us but not them!

I agree. On the Brexit chessboard, the EU have yet to make even their first move, having to wait on Article 50 being triggered by Theresa May.
It is worth bearing in mind that out here in the land of British state propaganda, we actually know very little of how the 27 thinks and feels about Brexit, and about Scotland in particular. One thing we do know and that is it was the EU which pressured the Blair Government to act on the democratic deficit in Scotland. The EU is hardly like to be unaware or unmoved by the current massive democratic deficit in Scotland, as well as in NI.
We are a very long way from defeat.

It is not a question of May ‘allowing’ another referendum, Jim. It would be political suicide to attempt to block one.
I talk to people the length and breadth, and beyond, an they are all for it.
But neither my statement nor yours in empirical, therefore we are not adding to the debate. We are being JOb’s comforters. You for the Yes side, me for the No side.
If 591 ‘foreign’ MPs said naw ye canny, what do you think would happen?
I am tired of ‘what ifs’, Jim. What if I open my back door tomorrow morning and a sink hole fifty feet deep has opened up during the night on the other side and I plummet to my death?
Grasp the thistle, Jim. Carpe diem, an’ ‘at.
The maths at Holyrood are on the Indyref 2 side, btw.

Diane, it may be argued that lack of interest due to Referendum fatigue would have an equal impact on both sides, at the very least.
It’s who is more committed and energetic in getting the vote out on the day that will make an impact.

Time for dramatic action. Independence was never going to be won through diplomatic legal means when the coloniser plays dirty.
You just have to look back through England’s history to see how it must play out.

A convention is precisely what it says it is. It has no legal force. That is why governments use it (especially in international contexts). Anyone who thought otherwise was fooling themselves.

And, as the Hoc Political and Constitutional Reform cttee noted:

“Entrenching the Sewel Convention (clause 2)
7.Draft clause 2 fails to acknowledge that the Sewel Convention in practice extends to
legislation affecting the competences of the devolved institutions. This significant
deficiency must be addressed in any redrafted version.”

….of course, it wasn’t, because it was never the intention of the Government to give the convention legal force, for the reason that it would undermine the sovereignty of the WM parliament – which is an absolute red line for governments of all colours.

Nobody is arguing that a convention has legal force, Kininvie.
WM, and that includes all Tory Parties Red White and Blue, have elbowed our Scottish Parliament to the sidelines, to be mere hapless onlookers while the English politicians drag Scotland, which voted 62% Remain, out of Europe against the express will of the people of Scotland.
In the spirit of the convention, we should have been involved, but Ruth Davidson (she of the Blue Tory, Big T’s mate) , has the power to deny the Scottish Parliament, not a ‘devolved administration”, the right to contribute to this crucial and life changing event.
I say Ruth Davidson since she is the mouthpiece for the Branch Office Up Here.
We are an occupied country from 10.00 o’clock this morning.
See Scotland. Fuck Scotland. Big T rools, OK?

Post Referendum 2014, Smith Commission; – remember those balmy days, when Scotland was the most loved, listened to, ‘equal’ member of the Union… (that’s the one between Scotland and England, -no-one else by the way …. Scotland is not, as currently dismissivlely referred to, as a ‘devolved institution’ but a Country and a signatory to a Treaty of Union)…when Scotland was … what was it.again?.. ‘the most pewerful devolved Parliament in in the world’, in the history of devolution , not forgetting Mr. Brown everything bar Defence and Foreign Affairs are aleady devolved …. (nearly as good as, well… direct rule (yes…read the small print).

Lord Smith said

‘We intend this [devolution plan] to be written in such a way that a plague of boils or something will break out if anyone decides to prorogue this Parliament’ So soon Lord Smith .?..it seems … a Plague of Boils, or something, has broken out… and is now heading their way.

‘Sic a parcel o’ pro-rogues in a nation’ for sure.

Never mind, I am sure the Secretary of State for Scotland will defend Scotland’s best interests (that includes the electorate represented by 56 out of 59 MPs in Scotland at Westminster by the way) to the hilt…..

but wait, if David Davis in the Commons today thinks that (and the timerity of an SNP MP to even ask a question) …..that ” the SNP does not speak for Scotland ‘”. well if 56 out of 59 MPs ‘don’t speak for Scotland’ David….. who does… oh I know … it must be the 1 Conservative MP (coincindentally the Secretary of State for Scotland – ‘cos there is only one of them… but in David Davis’s (Conservative) eyes, clearly the 1 more equal than the 56 (‘cos 1 is a much bigger number than 56) ….in this ‘most equal’ of Unions.

and there is the Democratic Deficit.

Wake up Labour people (I know, you only have 1 MP also at Westminster also but)….

Donald Dewar…. “There Shall be a Scottish Parliament” …. yes, maybe labour can remember that far back, it was Labour legislation that secured a Scottish Parliament… well, what are you doing about it.? … abstain again… vote with the Conservatives, have a natter in an Islington tea shop …. have a bit of a go at the SNP perhaps .. …?

The Devil’s in the detail as with most pieces of legislative pea-soup that originates in Westminster. At least we have something to be grateful to Farage for – without the Brexit hearing this lacuna would probably lain undiscovered for years. These are grounds for a UDI rather than a referendum.

Time to boycott wm and return the mps to their rightful home at holyrood…we have played the game too long under their terms and I’m afraid the electorate is either buttoned up the back, doesn’t care or is ambivalent towards being ruled from England…truly depressed at no increase in support for self determination despite everything but the plague landing at our doorstep..do we deserve another chance or is apathy all the scots can muster in terms of our future outlook…

Kat, Do you think that the Tories, Labour & LibDems at Westminster would be at all bothered if our SNP MPs left/boycotted the place? Frankly, I think they’d love that. What a wonderful opportunity for them to be free of those carping Jocks and at the same time to accuse them of throwing the toys out of the pram. There are few enough dissenting voices at Westminster as it is. As to the electorate in Scotland, I hate to agree but I think you’re right – some are stupid and/or ill-informed, some don’t care/are ambivalent about English rule and some others even really prefer it. Taken together, they make up a formidable obstacle to Scottish independence. This is not meant to be a counsel of despair but much work, preparation and patience will be called for if we are to get independence from England (formerly referred to as the U.K.) As the, usually mis-attributed quote has it, “Never underestimate the power of stupid people in large groups”.

Dan, I agree with you about the arrogance, ignorance and stupidity of britnats in Westminster. But never, never underestimate the skills and abilities of the UK Security Services when it comes to their ability to rig a referendum. The UK Security Services are employed to ensure the security of the UNITED Kingdom. We must have an unbreakable voting and counting process for the next time.

Brilliant Paul
The Westminster government have just told us to “play bonnie” and b**ger off. We can all go in the corner and fiddle whilst they do the “real work”. Well hell mend them. Let’s get Independent asap.

our last referendum showed that Scotland has a LOT of little Englanders that had moved to Scotland for a better lifestyle but still dont want to cut ties with their Mother England and their families that still reside south of the border — and their vote to remain in the UK was detrimental to the vote of True born and bred Scots — if we had not been in the Union and the referendum was whether to join or not i think we would say No we Dont want to join

Then we have NS being extremely firm calm and unafraid explaining why Indyref 2 is ‘highly likely’, but not until she has exhausted every other channel. No sign of being afraid at all, Brian.
But you got Misreporting’s headline out there. NS is afraid that she would lose indyref 2.
I have yet to see this remarkable Daughter of Scotland show any signs of fear or trepidation in the last 10 years.
Mundell on the other hand quivered and muttered nervously as per.
But Nicola Sturgeon is afraid, so says Brian Taylor.
And Kevin McKenna wants us to cut these bought and paid for Union mouthpieces some slack?

Thank you Jack for watching Mis..reporting Scotland on our behalf……. Stopped watching it a while back… But your right ….. Our First Minister is just amazing ….. Way ahead of the other so called ….party leaders. Also keep going with your writings… So interesting and a great inspiration,

Catherine, my pleasure. I suggest that you continue to shun the PQ Redoubt’s output.
They live on another planet from the rest of us.
I try to avoid as much as I can, but by random sampling it is clear that they are still wall to wall Unionist SE Establishment propagandists.

Thanks for that Jack. It is such a pleasure to read you writings along with Paul and Macart.. You put into words what I am thinking and feeling. We are going through so difficult times…. And we need to persuade other folks to vote Yes next time. There is a lot of work to be done…..but you guys need to keep writing…..

It occurs to me, Catherine, that I used ‘Daughter of Scotland’ intuitively to describe Nicola Sturgeon.
Perhaps we should establish our own Scottish Recognition Board to honour Scots citizens for outstanding service to Civic Scotland?
Daughter of Scotland?
Son of Scotland?
What would it take to set up such a non partisan Body?

We simply won’t let it be foisted upon us. There I go again, splitting my infinitive,
For our children and our children’s children.
There are many who voted No before who must be re assessing their position.
It’s coming yet, for a’ that. Now who said that?
Keep well, Catherine.

Today has roused an anger in me that I’ve never experienced to this extent,I’m 66 and since the age of 11/12 have known exactly how the English felt about Scotland,the ignorance of some of them is unbelievable,it’s not their fault to some degree,but,in another degree it is,today I watched a woman rant about us Scots,and how she spoke about the english,she should have said the UK,she went on at some length about the SNP and her derision towards the SNP guy was despicable,every time she opened her mouth it was about how England wanted out of the EU,and that it involved only the English wishes of the English people,ENGLAND voted to leave and that’s all that matters,it’s got nothing to do with Scotland ,she said that it was what England wanted, and more or less implied that Scotland had no say in the matter,….. if it wasn’t for the fact that I love my new TV I most certainly would have thrown my shoe at it,the ignorance of some English people is deplorable,and they have the cheek to say we hate Them,

Well said Marjory. I just can’t watch tv at all. Saw some pretty nasty comments yesterday on twitter also, about Scotland and the people of Scotland. The hatred is being ramped up. Even before the 2014 referendum, I sensed some deep contempt towards Scotland and ridicule, from friends and family in NE england. They are constantly told that Scotland takes from them, personally. A classic propaganda tactic, make it personal, especially when a crisis like brexit happens.

It is deeply worrying, and as brexit looms ever closer, and people start to notice the price rises, job losses, and fuel bills being hiked, the propaganda will also be ratcheted up. Scotland is a great country, with so much potential. We have to extricate away from the awful, backward, destructive union that is the UK.

I suspect that todays ruling will not have gone unnoticed among the EU27, and when the chips are down they will stand up for Scotland.

Great articles from the WGD are essential. Share them as much as possible.

Actually spoke to a No voter today and asked why he would vote No. He didn’t mention currency or Defence or Trident. He was concerned about cross-border trade (he ran a business). He worried he would lose his English market (70%+ of his income), have to sack his workers and go out of business. I understand that. I also run a business and get 90% of my supplies from England.
He was also concerned that the big Corporations might pack up and leave. So what, you might say, Well the corporations employ a lot of people. Yes, local firms will grow to fill the gaps but that takes time. What happens to the people made unemployed?

These are the kind of practical problems we need to address. Like paying Scots companies to employ people, while they grow, instead of paying dole anyway! Making growth capital available to Scottish firms to grow locally and then contribute to Scottish revenue. We have to talk to No voters, politely (no laughing) so we can find out what they are scared of and then we DEAL WITH THOSE FEARS. They are the people who vote and they will deliver Independence.

And no company is leaving england as we speak? Does your friend not know that there are quite a few countries out there to trade with, and do they really think that england will stop trading with Scotland. Do you really think that england won’t want to sell to you once we are independent. Which ‘corporations ‘ are you referring to?

I am sure that the ScotGov have some excellent plans, yes those things, regards trade, jobs, and ‘Scottish revenues’.

Who knows, the company selling you 90% of your supplies, could go under with brexshit. You may have to look further afield. Be interesting to know what kind of supplies, must be a pretty niche product. I will still buy stuff online, if england supplies what we need, great if not, plenty more out there. If we are independent and in the EU, trade with the 27 and rworld will I am sure be very easy, and lucrative. No voters mostly also have the internet, plenty info if they care to look.

Young voters, and working class families have been manipulated into voting out of EU through fear campaigns to do with immigration, that Westminster are partly responsible for? The secretive”British” political nature fears something? Like Trump building a 3000 mile wall. O what have Westminster done now? And we are all responsible due to their bad decision making-(wether Scottish, English, Irish, Welsh. P.M May arrogantly passively laughed at Carwyn Jones, for even doubting her decisions (& House of Lords, Traders ext)
Leaving the EU is as insane as the United states ununiting. I know nothing, but I do believe that the fear of loosing the pound is a lot to do with it, and hidden unknown reasons by superiors above the governments? Following politics encourages mental illness 😵 good for the pharmaceutical companies. We’ll all be watching the elite driving around in minis and pedalling Austin martins if article 50 is not applicable. Secrets and lies. Fed up of this political crap. Each atom, molecule is independent , but still making the one body.

Something I think we need to be absolutely crystal clear on before the ball gets rolling. The SNP CANNOT deliver independence. They can hold the door open as elected representatives for Scottish self determination. They can make a case for independence. They can even put the legislation in place for the population.

There is only one body who can ‘deliver’ independence and that is the voting public. The people of Scotland.

Do not EVER conflate delivery of independence with a political party or individual. That is the establishment’s game and it was one of their ploys in the last referendum, to conflate independence with party politics and personality. THAT is utter bullshit!

Only the public has the power to make that choice.

Any future referendum is not Sturgeon’s Referendum. It’s not the SNP’s, or the Greens, or RIC’s.

Well i can’t disagree with anything said , as you point out Independence is not the gift of any one party , it is a simple fact all must be involved , I watched a Tory politician on Sky with Adam Bolton he asked her about yesterdays Judgment that has shown a disregard for the voice of Scottish people , her reply was ” well if Nicola Sturgeon wants another referendum she can have one ” She was totally confused and her only reply was to name the SNP as if they represented all Scots ( if only ) her answer highlighted the fact most English people dont give a f/ck about anything north of the border unless it impacts on them directly , and the part of the judgement that affect Scotland will be sidelined and not mentioned in any of the forthcoming News reports on Brexit , thats what happens when another country controls all TV output .