Plentyoffish dating forums are a place to meet singles and get dating advice or share dating experiences etc. Hopefully you will all have fun meeting singles and try out this online dating thing... Remember that we are the largest free online dating service, so you will never have to pay a dime to meet your soulmate.

Yes, but you have to take the other person into consideration... or in the realm of profiles, the audience into perspective as well. You don't mind the "pressure" of them being a dating prospect, though. They aren't just like a friend -- in some light they are, in terms of lacking classical romantic stuff, sure. But some women won't see it that way in your position when liking the term as you do, and may demand the guy pay their bill when going out/meeting up casually. I would say in that case, it would call for even more criticism of the term. I think the term for many, is a mask one wants to wear to help their comfort zone. And there are a select few who do apply the phrase genuinely where they actually mean strictly platonic, not a dating prospect, and smack dab in the friends zone (just meeting new people with absolutely no assumptions or thoughts about possibly dating in the future).

I do take the person I'm talking to or intersted in into consideration, thus the discussion of what it means in the first place. For any one out there who doesn't know the exact meaning of someone else who says this - like I said before, ask what it means. That's simple communication.

Some women may be more sensitive to romantic pressure. So let's say a woman says "Brother/Sister First". To -her- that takes away tons of pressure and that's what she wants it to feel like for a while. And let's say that phrase catches on with some folks.... but obvious confusion and forum threads started in areas of dating and such. It'd beg questions of confusion like, are you from Alabama? You have a fetish? Need a stunt double for a family reunion? She can say it's LIKE you're sort of brother and sister -- that makes her feel ZERO pressure which she demands. How it makes -her- feel is fine, and she can keep that to herself, but she will rightfully get flack by her choice of words of defining things. Until that inaccurately worded phrase doesn't beg questions and rightfully draw confusion, she'd have no right to complain that folks would call her out for using it.

That doesn't excuse people who don't get it for reacting without asking. If someone said something to me I didn't understand I'd ask what they meant by it. Since so many people are so different - this case isn't any different than cases in other threads. The answer is - ask. If you don't care and you can afford to cut people out of your dating pool based on one phrase, then have a party.

If someone said something to me I didn't understand I'd ask what they meant by it. Since so many people are so different - this case isn't any different than cases in other threads. The answer is - ask.

Here's the problem, though: The phrase "Friends First" by itself isn't unclear and doesn't really beg any questions. It's clear -- it clearly states that you just want to be friends, in the friend-zone, before any consideration of dating that would be done in the future. There's always been a small pct of people who feel that way. It doesn't beg a question, despite a lot of people not taking it too kindly ("Want me to be a guy friend for a while first? Take it casual and low-key is fine -- but being a guy friend means I'm either not-that-attractive-but-good-on-paper or you've got issues about guys or the dating world" - common thought).

Point being, if you don't mean what it says, you're miscommunicating things to kick things off. Sure, ANYTHING can be discussed and clarified -- but if it doesn't beg a question by itself, it doesn't excuse the person using that phrase incorrectly. The reason for the "vagueness" or "begging questions" is -after- one's observation of other people using it for other meanings. Until the person realizes this is really going on, he/she won't assume there's anything to ask much about where they stand.

I can't say in a profile, or telling others who will put a good word in for me to girls that "I want a girl who's a stay-at-home-mom" ... but just mean that I want a gal who's like a mother to me and who is willing to stay at home on many Friday and Saturday nights to watch movies. Wouldn't I be a fool to say to others in the end who realize I didn't mean what I said "hey, if it's vague, that doesn't give you the excuse not to ask about it"? It wasn't vague! Now, if that phrase caught on to mean what I wanted it to mean, then guess what? People would say "that phrase is silly to use, unless you actually mean what it says".

Here's the problem, though: The phrase "Friends First" by itself isn't unclear and doesn't really beg any questions. It's clear -- it clearly states that you just want to be friends, in the friend-zone, before any consideration of dating that would be done in the future.

If it was so clear threads wouldn't be posted about it. It's not as clear as saying "red" when meaning "blue", obviously.

There's always been a small pct of people who feel that way. It doesn't beg a question, despite a lot of people not taking it too kindly ("Want me to be a guy friend for a while first? Take it casual and low-key is fine -- but being a guy friend means I'm either not-that-attractive-but-good-on-paper or you've got issues about guys or the dating world" - common thought).

That's an interpretation based on issues of the person who's hearing it.

Point being, if you don't mean what it says, you're miscommunicating things to kick things off. Sure, ANYTHING can be discussed and clarified -- but if it doesn't beg a question by itself, it doesn't excuse the person using that phrase incorrectly. The reason for the "vagueness" or "begging questions" is -after- one's observation of other people using it for other meanings. Until the person realizes this is really going on, he/she won't assume there's anything to ask much about where they stand.

The fact that it has different meanings to different people basically means that there is no universal meaning to it - unless you want there to be. In that case it will mean to you what you want it to.

I can't say in a profile, or telling others who will put a good word in for me to girls that "I want a girl who's a stay-at-home-mom" ... but just mean that I want a gal who's like a mother to me and who is willing to stay at home on many Friday and Saturday nights to watch movies. Wouldn't I be a fool to say to others in the end who realize I didn't mean what I said "hey, if it's vague, that doesn't give you the excuse not to ask about it"? It wasn't vague! Now, if that phrase caught on to mean what I wanted it to mean, then guess what? People would say "that phrase is silly to use, unless you actually mean what it says".

Again, saying red and meaning blue isn't cause for confusion. The word friend doesn't have one meaning, and put in context it takes on more of a subjective definition. Not to mention that most women don't want to be a stay ay home mom even if it does mean mothering some guy and not coming off the couch most of a relationship, so I'm not sure you could totally peg the difference in reaction on that one.

We're adults - if we're not sure what something means, we can either attach our own projection to it, or we can ask if the person who says it means something different than we do. Doesn't matter either way, so long as you're ok with the consequences of that choice. These days most that's said especially in relationships is subjective - a lot of times two people don't look at the same thing the same way. To not incorporate that is sort of silly...but to each their own. Again, that's a choice. How we feel about that choice is irrelevant to the need to make it.

The phrase itself is clear. Again, AFTER experience, folks realize SOME people are saying red when they mean blue, and some people are saying red when they mean red -- and THAT is the reason why -- it's a "wtf" reason. Why are people applying different meanings to something that's pretty clear? On the other hand, even if there weren't any -unnecessary- slang-meanings to it as it stands today, it's true meaning still makes some people's eyes roll.

The fact that it has different meanings to different people basically means that there is no universal meaning to it

It has a clear meaning to it, but yes, people are giving the phrase different meanings -unnecessarily-. There are silly uses of particular phrases -- that is one of them.

Again, saying red and meaning blue isn't cause for confusion.

Really? That doesn't cause confusion? If I say I like boys but later on I had to explain that I meant girls -- that wouldn't cause confusion? lol You're assuming people KNOW what you mean from the outset -- yes, I agree there. But the point is, people ASSUME you mean red when you say red -- they are not going to think you're begging a question or discussion about it. It'd be up to YOU to have to let them know you meant blue -- not the other way around. And it would be a mistake -- not something to stick to out of stubbornness.

if we're not sure what something means, we can either attach our own projection to it, or we can ask if the person who says it means something different than we do

But we THINK it means something already because the phrase is clear. It's NOT vague.

Again, what about my example of saying "I want a girl who's a stay at home mom"? Sure, any phrase can beg questions -- but when I say that phrase it's very clear on what I want in general. BUT, if in my own brain I meant something completely different -- a woman who will treat me like a mother and is willing to stay home on weekend nights watching movies with me, I'm an idiot for using it. EVEN after a while I notice other idiots are using that phrase to "mean" that too, despite it clearly stating something else.

Point is, that's idiocy to think "I can say that I want a girl who's a stay at home mom, and it's not my fault if that ends up causing confusion for someone when they find out that I knowingly didn't mean that. World revolves around me -- people gotta ask me what I meant on everything I say, even if it's clear."

There's NO reason someone has to purposely use a phrase that does not mean what it says. Whether it's "Friends First", when they don't want to be just friends first, or "I want a stay-at-home mom" when they don't want an actual stay-at-home mom.

friends first what a choice lol. Would I perfer to be friends with someone I was romantically interested in yes DOES this work NO. How does one get out of the friends into something more when they are affraid of loosing the friendship if romance doesn't work, more questions maybe it should be clairified as to say I would like to get to no you before we jump into a relationship. As far as I see things one should both build friendship and romance, Think they go hand in hand not friends first not junping bones, relationship depends on both so work on them both right from the start just one guys opinion

maybe it should be clairified as to say I would like to get to no you before we jump into a relationship

Some people don't want to say "I like to take things slow and get to know the person before jumping into a relationship", and instead say a non-equal phrase "Friends First" because it's quicker, cuter, to their liking, and they're used to it. Some don't realize folks will pass over their profile or them as an option for a potential match because they thought they meant they wanted to be just friends in the beginning.

Here's my guess on how things began, as I've heard a few folks use this reason before:When someone's single and looking back, they realize a lot of fruitful relationships spawned from someone who was considered 'a friend' in the beginning. They knew that person before they had their first date, their first kiss, etc. It brought more substance. Here's the common way it occurs:

Among a varying social circle, Bob meets Sally, a friend of a friend. She comes out to the bar/social-scene amongst people he knows now and again. They chit chat and have some banter sometimes. He knows someone who knows her decently well, and vice versa. Over time, they get to know each other and lots of conversation, and are just friends... until Bob makes a move and Sally obliges. The End. This happens by happenstance; no match-making.

Problem is trying to knowingly re-create that with someone you don't know in the beginning, one-on-one, from a match-maker or a dating site. You're trying to PUT them and yourself in the friend-zone, if you really mean "Friends First", like some people do. That's not re-creating the same situation, even if you'd like it to be. It's a lot like role-playing if you go down the route of matchmaking.

It'd be up to YOU to have to let them know you meant blue -- not the other way around. And it would be a mistake -- not something to stick to out of stubbornness.

I do explain what I mean - which I said. I also ask when I'm not clear on what's being said. Beyond that it's up to the world to sort the rest out. I never stated people had to ask - I clarify so that it's not something a person HAS to ask me. There's no stubbornness on my part - there seems to be one on the part of people who decide to take it the wrong way and walk off though. I digress.

"Friends first" means friends before more - if you look at the two words without influence. If you say it's not vague, then you agree with that meaning. Friendships are part of relationships - so building a friendship from nothing and then adding more to it later to me doesn't seem like such an offense. Going straight into a relationship with a person you just met may not seem odd to you - but it's not the way I do things.

To me it's no different than getting to know someone before getting involved - in that case if not friends and not dating, what would YOU call it?

I know you feel friendship is the anti relationship, but I just don't agree. We'll have to leave it at that.

You made me laugh!Yeah, you nailed it when you said that "friends first" is a code for the Special Oneswho have it all figured out! And the rest of us "aren't there yet!" Whoohoo!Imagine....one day....all of the people of the world, hand in hand, friends firsting....just making it all beautiful!Yeah, we both knew that there were some very good reasons for avoiding the friends first people, and this is proof positive. That was some of the most pompous and silly crap that I've ever read on any site.

Confidentrealist,

You nailed it as well. "Friends first" is silly BS, and you're right it confuses people. The ultimate result of using the term is that it puts the other person in a more vulnerable position.

It might seem to some that we're making too much of the semantics here, but the fact is that it really does matter. I talked about my bad experiences, and I have no reason to lie. In my opinion, the term is used by people who wanna get over, people who demand complete control of the entire dating situation. I think that it also has sort of a hip and trendy sound to it that attracts people who wanna be seen as....hip and trendy....but they're really just control freaks in disguise.

If they don't ask? Again, we're not talking about -you- per se, we're talking about the usage of the phrase as the label TO describe what someone wants. Now, if that person ALSO describes it along with it that's obviously a good thing -- but still begs the question of why they'd be calling something red when they meant a particular shade of blue?

I also ask when I'm not clear on what's being said.

That's actually not about this topic, tho. If you said "a color" -- then yes, you could mean blue, red, green, etc. That's a different story. In the world of the growing frequency of the use of "Friends First", you're pointing out something specific, like a particular color in which it is not.

There's no stubbornness on my part - there seems to be one on the part of people who decide to take it the wrong way and walk off though.

The wrong way, hmmm.... Stating "I want a stay at home mom" when I do not mean I want a stay at home mom, or "Friends First" when I do not want to be merely friends at first, is kicking things off as wrong. If I describe "what I mean by that" would in both cases bring confusion though about the person's poor choice of accurate wordings on a label phrase. That's about the only reason I'd see someone walking off... or getting into a discussion on how you're just friends first but not just friends by the other description -- that's actually where confusion could be play a role for someone.

"Friends first" means friends before more - if you look at the two words without influence.

Yeah, I agree. If someone says "I like to be Friends First", and pretty much leaves it at that as far as what they're looking for when stepping into the world of guys and girls, yep. Just a guy friend -- then maybe being something more than that after a guy friend-female friendship develops. Different than not jumping into something -- it's more specific, meaning being friends before ever being anything more than friends (as you pointed out).

Going straight into a relationship with a person you just met may not seem odd to you - but it's not the way I do things.

This has -nothing- at ALL to do with jumping into a relationship, tho. If you think what I've said has implied that, then there's a lot of miscommunication going on. You can be more than friends and not be in a relationship or close to it. You can be FWB on any scale... you can be in a pre-dating phase, where you're not a couple but you're going out on dates. You can be hanging out and taking things low-key without the "romance" stuff to kick things off with someone. Going about things by what "Friends First" means, is different -- that means you want to set up a 100% platonic guy-friend/female-friendship by that phrase (more later if it's a good friendship). You can personally re-define it to a person, which yes, is good if/when you get the chance and you have your own meaning, but you have to realize you're re-defining it (like I'd have to do if I said 'stay at home mom').

I could use the same arguments you're pointing out to defend the "I want a stay at home mom", as long as I tell a girl if I get the chance, that what I mean by it is that I want a gal who treats me like a mom and is willing to stay at home w/ me and watch movies (fyi - an example; not what I'm looking around for!). And by your rationale, I would not be doing anything that would deserve any criticism. I would disagree -- if I were doing that, I would be deserving of criticism. If you believe that I wouldn't be deserving of criticism in that case, then I guess that's the root of the disagreement and not much more can be said about it I guess.

To me it's no different than getting to know someone before getting involved

It is different -- being more than friends doesn't mean you're a couple, involved, etc. It doesn't require being just friends to avoid jumping into things. There isn't anything there when you're just hanging out to put a "label" on.

in that case if not friends and not dating, what would YOU call it?

Your last quote. "Getting to know someone before getting involved". Yeah, it's that simple isn't it? Saying Friends First means you're just friends before the process before being involved. Some people aren't ready to be dealing with a dating prospect, and just want a friend for the time being. Some are but want to keep it low-key before being "involved" (dating, being a couple). Calling it Friends First means the first one -- wanting to be just friends.

IMO, “Friends First” is an oxymoron. It infers that while there IS romantic intent, you’re going to break the getting-to-know-you process into two parts; part one will be sans romantic intimacy (friends) and then (after you’ve established your platonic friendship), part two commences with romantic intimacy. People who subscribe to this line of thinking fail to realize that the interrelating dynamics of a budding platonic friendship are different than that of a budding romantic relationship. There is no need to be “friends first” if mutual romantic interest and relationship POTENIAL exists, because romantic intimacy, (i.e., a gradual progression of affection shared between the couple as they get to know one another and their respective trust and comfort levels increase), should be nurtured and developed IN TANDEM with the budding best friendship; not split into TWO different phases. Romantic intimacy is NOT a separate dynamic if both people are on the same page, and, IMO, it does not take long, (certainly not weeks of dating), to determine if mutual romantic interest and the potential for "more" exists. Ergo, there is no need to add the caveat of “Friends First” to the getting-to-know-you process. You date a few times and if the potential exists, you begin to nurture and create a ROMANTIC best friendship together; if there is no potential, or if incompatibilities arise at any time during the getting-to-know-you process, you can then decide whether or not to become “Friends Last”.

Again, we're not talking about -you- per se, we're talking about the usage of the phrase as the label TO describe what someone wants.

I am talking about me - you keep turning it into what everyone else does, I keep telling you what everyone else does is fine so long as they don't care what the outcome is. That's it.

Now, if that person ALSO describes it along with it that's obviously a good thing -- but still begs the question of why they'd be calling something red when they meant a particular shade of blue?

Who cares so long as they explain the situation? There is a shade of purple that may look blue to you and red to me - if I tell you I'm viewing it as red, who cares why I am so long as I explain it?

That's actually not about this topic, tho. If you said "a color" -- then yes, you could mean blue, red, green, etc. That's a different story. In the world of the growing frequency of the use of "Friends First", you're pointing out something specific, like a particular color in which it is not.

Um, I don't know what you're going on about - but if I found friends first to be odd based on what I know up to that point, I'd open my freaking mouth and ask someone to clarify it. I could knee jerk react to it based on what I think or what I already went through, but I'd rather just ask.

The wrong way, hmmm.... Stating "I want a stay at home mom" when I do not mean I want a stay at home mom, or "Friends First" when I do not want to be merely friends at first, is kicking things off as wrong. If I describe "what I mean by that" would in both cases bring confusion though about the person's poor choice of accurate wordings on a label phrase. That's about the only reason I'd see someone walking off... or getting into a discussion on how you're just friends first but not just friends by the other description -- that's actually where confusion could be play a role for someone.

The only confusion someone would have if I explained what I mean is the confusion of them trying to correct what I said AND what I mean based on what they think it should have been. That'd be the opposite of seeing it from my point of view or wanting to understand.

It is different -- being more than friends doesn't mean you're a couple, involved, etc. It doesn't require being just friends to avoid jumping into things. There isn't anything there when you're just hanging out to put a "label" on.

When I say "to me" it's no different, that's not something I'm looking to debate - it is what it is. I'm stating that to me it's no different. Therefore it is NOT different to me, thus the "to me" in my sentence.

Your last quote. "Getting to know someone before getting involved". Yeah, it's that simple isn't it? Saying Friends First means you're just friends before the process before being involved. Some people aren't ready to be dealing with a dating prospect, and just want a friend for the time being. Some are but want to keep it low-key before being "involved" (dating, being a couple). Calling it Friends First means the first one -- wanting to be just friends.

I assume you'd rather I use that phrase (and give you credit for straightening me out about what phrase to use) but again - I explained what I do - so far I've never had a problem with it. What others will do is either assume they know what it means, ask a person what it means, or get confused obviously and post a thread here asking 900 people what they think to see what they should do about it.

Again, we'll have to agree to disagree, or whatever it is we can do to move on from belaboring the same points.

I am talking about me - you keep turning it into what everyone else does

Actually, how other people perceive it. What you want to call things to yourself is fine -- but describing something falsely as "Friends First" IF you don't want to be just friends at first gives people the wrong message. Pretty simple.

Who cares so long as they explain the situation? There is a shade of purple that may look blue to you and red to me

You may not always have the chance to explain the situation, especially if you think the phrase is accurate with other people. We're not talking about different shades of a color -- it's more like green vs red. "Friends First" and "I want a stay at home mom" are NOT vague. It's direct and to the point, not description needed. If one needs -another- description to re-define it in totally different way, that's where confusion can occur. It begs the question -- why use that phrase description to -other people- if you don't mean what it says? How could you say "that's their problem"? Accurate language interpretation is not subjective when it comes to something clear-cut as "Friends First" or "I want a stay at home mom".

The only confusion someone would have if I explained what I mean is the confusion of them trying to correct what I said AND what I mean based on what they think it should have been.

It's not merely their opinion. If someone says "I want a stay at home mom", that means they're looking for a woman who stays at home with their kids as her job. That's what it says. They are not subjectively defining it's meaning -- the language does that. I would be re-defining it if I meant a gal who treats me like a mom and stays home with me.

Therefore it is NOT different to me, thus the "to me" in my sentence.

No, I understand what you're saying. Basically, anyone can say what they want to others, and if what they internally meant does not at all fly with what words they used -- so what? If they offer a detailed description to clean up the mess, everything should be all well and good, right?

IF they do a good job of their additional description (and have a chance to), yeah, it pretty much clears things up. But that doesn't mean their initial description -to others- with their phrase isn't silly to use if it doesn't go by what it says. You're seeing it as one shade of blue vs another -- and if that were the case, yeah, that'd be splitting hairs most definitely. But it's blue vs red, red vs green IF they meant "I like to focus on getting to know someone rather than any focus on some romantic courtship song-and-dance; I like to keep things low-key with a guy I'm with initially" or "I like to take things slow and not jump into a relationship" vs what the phrase DOES say "I want to be just friends. After I get to know you down the line, who knows -- we could end up being more than friends."

Some people like being in the friend-zone and being just friends with someone before they'd consider even dating them. That's very very different than being obviously more than friends, hanging out & keeping things low-key for the sake of not jumping into an actual relationship or couple-hood too soon -- tons of people take that route, and no, they don't define things as "just friends".

I disagree...some of the men whom I have eventually cared for the most....I wasn't immediately attracted to in a relatonshippy kind of way...it was soemthing that develpoed over time after builidng trust and intimacy on a friendship level first.

I think "friends first" means "I am claiming to only want 'friends first' so that when I meet someone I'm not attracted to, they won't expect anything but friendship from me..."friends first" only applies to the ugly people."

true friendship isn't complicated. you want the other person to be pleased, laugh and not be hurt nor uncomfy. sometimes friends pay their own way, for each others way, it varies. but i agree to friends first (unless horny and just want to sow my royal oats..so to speak) if i'm looking for my queen. i'm not going to take something to the next level if we aren't meshing like a hand and glove.

It means that I want to get to know you and not jump into bed right away. Women, especially say this, because some men believe in the 3 date rule. Most women aren't ready to have sex after only 3 dates. Any man who believes that a woman should have sex by the third date should just pay for sex. It costs the same and is easier for everyone concerned.

No, it does not. When you're out with your buddy at a bar or restaurant, do you pay his way every time just because? Is it a one-way street like that? When friends, one almost always pays, other almost always doesn't? No... you're friends, you're pals. When one pays for the other as the -part- of going out, you're not just friends. You don't pay for your buddy's dinner every time... nor are you trying to impress him.

true friendship isn't complicated

Exactly. Not much to it. When you begin dating someone, a friendship is interwoven into it. No need for playing games to set something up as "just friends" in the beginning when you're not.

Obviously some people like the term, some don't. The complaint is abusing the word "friends" when you're not nor intend to be. You don't use "friends" to mean "watered-down-date". Did you kiss? You're not just friends. Did he pay for dinner? Not just friends. Stop putting on the mask of a false term!

The real complaint is using the term as "running the option", like in football. You can toss the ball to the RB, or run it for yourself. You can go in two different directions. It puts you in control of the situation -- and you won't like it when it goes the other way. Like to take things slow? Great. Taking "it" anywhere means you're not just friends - take off the mask! :)

If you're really just friends, it's not rude to talk about a gal you made out with the other day that you hope calls you back. You can say that to a buddy.... a friend's wife... or a friend... but not a girl who is a dating prospect.

When women with profiles that said ``friends first'' contacted me, I told them I didn't do the friends first thing. Oddly enough, they told me they didn't either, but put that in their profiles to help keep down the messages from guys looking for sex. I never found that ``friends first'' worked in the ``real world,'' either. The only thing obvious about ``friends first'' in the ``real world'' is that it typically ends up being ``just friends, always.''

If you ever get "friends first' it means that you should move on to someone else.

This "friends first" is just a polite way of saying to you that you are not Boyfriend material but she will hang out once and a while until someone she deams "BF" material comes by. Once this happens, you will hardly ever hear from her again unless they break-up, at which point you will have to endure hours and hours of conversations relating to how the guy was a jerk.

It simply means that you haven't "closed doors" and you also keep the emergency door open as well, i.e., you hit the road when you feel like it - when you've had enough - no responsibility - no bad conscience - even though you already knew from day one that you weren't interested in anything besides sex, which it's mainly about. Let's face it, why would a woman be looking for male friends on a dating site? Since when is such a friendship even possible? It must have been sometime before recorded time in that case.

I'd like to stretch that a bit further and say that people who don't want to get married and yet want a serious relationship (or so they claim) , are people who for the same reason as above, don't close doors. It's much easier to walk out without "complications" that way - at least for them.