[LA]Waterworld

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I don't know if many people around here play the [LA] co-op wads, on Zdaemon, but I'm absolutely addicted to these things. Some people don't like the style of these wads, but I just love the architecture and old-school platform style gaming.

Forestworld was the first good wad in my opinion. Lavaworld really set a whole new standard and Factoryworld followed suit. I think that Waterworld takes it to a whole new level. I literally just spent nearly two hours on one level, and most of that was cruising through the map and finding new areas. It is so utterly massive and complex that I was actually starting to get a headache.

Combine all of these wads, and you're looking at a good 20 hours of gameplay for a skilled Doomer on the Zdaemon servers just to beat each level once. If you're a Doomer and you love Mario style gameplay, you should enjoy these WADs as much as I did.

I don't think it's an exaggeration to say that these wads are as much of a bright spot in my gaming life as a new Zelda game, which by the way I hope to enjoy in the coming months.

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no, it is not. i can kinda understand the other reasons la-worlders repeat like a broken record on zdaemon forums (mildly difficult jumping challenges, exploration of massive maps, possibilities to speedrun), but shooting people into instant death pits that cover most of the maps is fucking ridiculous. it's definitely not a planned map feature, no matter how flunky tries to paint it now. it's bad trolling and liking it is bad taste. where is the fun when a gang of mexican morons stalks you around and shoots you down whenever you get near a ledge, only to immediatelly run into the nearest corner and spam JAJAJAJA NOOB ecks dee? at least have the decency and run it with friendly fire on?! la-worlds just continue the childish cliche crap from the dbzone era, but this time with next to zero monster opposition. it's like the trolls need an easier challenge.

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... where is the fun when a gang of mexican morons stalks you around and shoots you down whenever you get near a ledge, only to immediatelly run into the nearest corner and spam JAJAJAJA NOOB ecks dee?...

To be honest I would much rather be heckled in a foreign language than my own.

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I also did a review of Lavaworld MAP01 here if you want a rundown of what you're missing out on. Note that my review doesn't even take into account other players, so your experience will probably differ (for the worse) when playing in a server full of noobs, trolls, and mexicans.

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Currently playing through these on single player (having not played any of them before) and it's a bit refreshing to see architecture like this...not the plain one-sector stuff ofc but the more interesting bits like the really tall areas. And surely I'm not the only one who thinks "when was the last time we saw a good old-fashioned maze where you just explore every corner and kill stuff...Wolf 3D?" (granted, mazes can be annoying which is why they're not seen nowadays...but tbh it's good to see one every now and again, esp when the monsters aren't deaf)

Cave World wasn't too special (aside from imp maze, weird tall chasm areas and a tricky first map in terms of ammo) but Factory World is rather cool...it looks like those kind of endless factories you get in the likes of Sonic, Megaman etc. not to mention fairly challenging. (currently on map 03)

I would really recommend single player on these though, especially to the throngs of people who hate purely cos of the idiocy that goes on in the coop servers.

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am i the only one that sees a bunch of open, flat rooms with uninspired monster placement? the only interesting thing about these that i see are the bits where you're running along-side a cliff, but the playing area as a whole is square and flat (minus a few slopes up to a room with higher ground). a huge scale is great, too, but scale can serve a muchgreater gameplay and visual purpose than just making instant-death lava feel that much more overwhelming and threatening.

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am i the only one that sees a bunch of open, flat rooms with uninspired monster placement? the only interesting thing about these that i see are the bits where you're running along-side a cliff, but the playing area as a whole is square and flat (minus a few slopes up to a room with higher ground).

I think that monster placement in general is almost a non-issue. I can't think of any difference in the placement of monsters that I can objectively say would be more fun or better than what's in these maps. I have to say, though, my guilty pleasure is finding a few dozen demons or imps in a narrow hallway and mowing them down with the railgun. This could be a large reason why the wads are so addicting.

a huge scale is great, too, but scale can serve a muchgreater gameplay and visual purpose than just making instant-death lava feel that much more overwhelming and threatening.

I'm completely confused by these screenshots. These look like fairly normal scale maps with plain-jane base themes. If you're going to talk about square, flat, and uninspired, I'd point to these screenshots a million times before I would think of [LA] wads.

I beat half of map01 of waterworld in SP just using the keyboard, by the way. So if the only fun is people trying to ruin your fun, then you just might be the most boring person on the planet.

Edit: AndrewB Run Buddy is one of the best limit removing mapsets of all time. the gameplay is solid, and it's fun to run around the massive world. Waterworld, however, feels like everything I hated about The Chasm in Doom II, and adding a shitty, zdoomy coat of paint on it.

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Speaking of dbzone anyone here remember or even know of Destination Unknown? I've always wanted to ask the dbzone creators if they were inspired by it, since I made the majority of it before the first dbzone was created (this was back in mid 2006). I don't know whether I should be proud of this or not.

For anyone who doesn't know: Destination Unknown is a 19-map platformer/slaughtermap wad. It was my third released wad (the first two were a really crap 32-map dm wad and a slightly less crap but still crap 9-map SP wad, if you're interested), so I was still very experimental with it. It's a bit like dbzone, except the maps are a lot shorter, more varied and colourful, and maybe even more trollable in places.

Maybe I should have a go at making a [LA] type map. Haven't done something like that in years.

Edit: Come to think of it, the makers of dbzone were probably more inspired by that super sonic doom wad thing. Pretty much the only thing DU has in common with dbzone is that it's got slaughter and platform elements.

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Edit: AndrewB Run Buddy is one of the best limit removing mapsets of all time. the gameplay is solid, and it's fun to run around the massive world. Waterworld, however, feels like everything I hated about The Chasm in Doom II, and adding a shitty, zdoomy coat of paint on it.

Michael Krause is a pretty highly regarded name (see list of 100 best wads of all time). i also don't know what you're smoking because those "plain-jane" base themes (which are the same stock texture themes we've seen in many other highly regarded and well known map sets over the years) have a hell of a lot more variety than those two wonderful textures featured throughout the entirety of lavaworld.

i honestly don't understand how anyone with any fundamental knowledge of what makes a well designed doom map could say that Run Buddy is of lesser design. there is a difference between using a lot of 90 degree angles and making every room literally a fucking rectangle.

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Michael Krause is a pretty highly regarded name (see list of 100 best wads of all time).

His regard is irrelevant. You linked to a bunch of screenshots that didn't support whatever it was you were trying to say.

i also don't know what you're smoking because those "plain-jane" base themes (which are the same stock texture themes we've seen in many other highly regarded and well known map sets over the years) have a hell of a lot more variety than those two wonderful textures featured throughout the entirety of lavaworld.

You're the one that's more likely to be smoking something if you're trying to say that [LA] wads collectively lack variety. If there are any other wads with a scale comparable to these wads that have as much variety, then damn it, I want know what they are so I can try them. But if the screenshots you posted are your idea of variety, then I'd rather not get the advice from you...

i honestly don't understand how anyone with any fundamental knowledge of what makes a well designed doom map could say that Run Buddy is of lesser design. there is a difference between using a lot of 90 degree angles and making every room literally a fucking rectangle.

I can hardly read this without feeling my stomach churn from the seething elitism. You talk about "highly regarded" maps and mappers as though their regard has anything to do with how fun their wads are to play. I've played many "highly regarded" wads with absolutely amazing visual design. But there's just one common probably that infects almost all of them: They're not fun to play. They're just kinda nice to look at in a "Wow, that's impressive for the Doom engine" kind of way. But then you maybe drum up the motivation to play a few maps, and then you go and do something else, never touching the wads again. Reminds me of modern gaming.

What a truly enlightened gamer understands about himself is that he should play those games that draw him in. He shouldn't play the games that he must push himself into just because everyone else is playing it.

I don't recall ANYONE saying that [LA] wads are the pinnacle of visual design. And true, there's hardly a linedef to be found that isn't on a 90 degree angle. Anyone who's played more than a few maps knows that the mapper pretty much snorts a bunch of cocaine and pumps out as many huge levels as he can as quickly as he can with about as much detail as needed to make them visually palatable. He doesn't obsess over making some pretentious masterpiece. He just lets his creative juices flow about as freely as I think is humanly possible. Anyone that listens to a lot of music created in this will way will tell you it makes for a much better end result than the homogenized, perfected process.

I won't completely agree that the visual design is inferior, however. Where the wads fall short in meticulous perfectionism, they excel in simplistic beauty, scale, and eccentricity. Comparing the two opposing styles of wads is like trying to compare a Raphael to a Picasso and decide which is a better painting. It would be a ridiculous comparison.

I think the most important thing to realize is that these wads should not be compared to other "highly regarded" wads, or even Doom itself. That would critically miss the point. These wads should be compared to 3D platformers, such as Mario, Zelda, Banjo Kazooie, and other games which are some of the most highly regarded of all time. It's a blend of all of these games, with a dash of Doom. If you can understand this, then maybe the appeal of the games will be a little more clear. Or maybe these games are simply too "gay" for you. That would probably explain a lot.

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I dunno if I want to jump headlong into this debate, but I did play [LA]Waterworld, [LA]Lavaworld, and [LA]Factoryworld. For reference, I played them in single-player.

I will say that while the levels are almost mono-textured, fairly light on enemies for how massive they are, and rather hard to figure out at times(I have yet to exit or even find all the keys in any one of them), there is a certain charm to these wads that I can't put my finger on. Playing through the levels as a mapper myself, I'm led to believe that the level designer obviously knows his way around the DOOM engine and has the requisite experience, and thus has made a conscious choice to make these levels the way he made them. He didn't skimp on detail because he doesn't know how, he did it on purpose. Whether or not that's good or bad is subjective. To be fair though, my knowledge/experience with multiplayer is less than minimal, so these levels may be quite conducive to good online play, but I can only judge them from a SP standpoint.

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I just downloaded the map and flipped through a few maps. I've definitely played this wad a lot. From what I remember, I really enjoyed it for many of the same reasons. Doesn't have the same enormity/scale as [LA] in any given map, though.

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Incredible. Who knew the one day I come and look at DoomWorld I see a vague attempt to try and bolster the popularity of a over-rated crappy mod.

I've played LA worlds, all of them, but I would instantly ragequit after the first map of getting tired of constantly needing to catch up to the other players. Speaking of which...

I believe this wad was made SOLELY for the purpose of Team Damage, thats the only reason possible players ever stick around that long in DBzone servers it's because as soon as they get bored killing monsters, well they just wanna be pricks and kill their teammates because "jajajajaja lol u ded" is hilarious aint it? Death is funny kids, kill your friends, all the time.

LA worlds is a exact rip from DBZone, they are trying too hard to look just like them, like a annoying little brother trying to live up to his bigger brother's legacy. The incredibly tall ceilings and lava pits just mask it's disgusting lack of design, Doom textures were designed for 256 tall rooms (at most) anything more than that turns any texture into a pixelated mess of grey or brown dots.

There is no thought put into these, from what I remember, a new LA wad would pop out every week, so given this logic none of these maps were truely planned out they just stay true to 3 given elements:

-Lots of monsters
-Plenty of cliffs
-Quite a few jumps

Infact looking INTO these wads, not only do they mimic DBZone's weapon sounds, weapons, monsters and even their mapping genre, hell they go so far as to steal their scripts too because they lack the mindset to truely learn or look up any formal training so they can make their own useless wads.

And lastly, the ONLY reason I believe ZDaemon players even play this wad is because of the fact they get too frustrated with actually traversing well thought out wads that they just want to run forward and never stop and shoot other people to stay entertained with infinite ammo.

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I've played LA worlds, all of them, but I would instantly ragequit after the first map of getting tired of constantly needing to catch up to the other players.

I'm much worse at the game than others, therefore the game sucks. Classic argument.

Incredible. Who knew the one day I come and look at DoomWorld I see a vague attempt to try and bolster the popularity of a over-rated crappy mod.

What's incredible is that you're raging over a wad that nobody is forcing you to play and doesn't otherwise affect your life in any way.

I can understand people not liking the wads because 1) it's not Doomish, 2) not enough enemy resistance, 3) gameplay is repetitive, etc etc...

But what is really astonishing to me is people going out of their way to trash something that isn't taking away anything from anything. If it's so repulsive to you, why are you granting it a moment of your time, even to complain about it? It's not like there's a lack of wads that meet your tastes.

It's pretty much exactly the same mentality as people who bash gay marriage because it takes away from heterosexual marriage (which of course it doesn't). I think the underlying cause in both cases is the same: The homophobes bashing the gays are in fact somewhat homosexual themselves, and so they rage over the gays in an attempt to convince others that they're the farthest thing from gay (which they're not).

Just the same, I'm convinced that the people who are bashing these wads are actually dealing with the inner guilt due to the knowledge that they actually love these wads, but they have too much pride and loyalty toward their sacred Doom to admit it.

People who actually dislike these wads would glance at this thread and leave immediately, or try the wads for a couple of minutes and quit, and never speak of it again. That's why they say that the opposite of love isn't hate, it's indifference.

I really think you should just come out of the closet already. It's obvious what your inner desires really are. Just do what your instincts are telling you to do and get it out of your system. Maybe then you'll learn to enjoy life a bit more and not rage over everything. At least you won't deal with the stress of living a lie.

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I really think you should just come out of the closet already. It's obvious what your inner desires really are. Just do what your instincts are telling you to do and get it out of your system. Maybe then you'll learn to enjoy life a bit more and not rage over everything. At least you won't deal with the stress of living a lie.

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His regard is irrelevant. You linked to a bunch of screenshots that didn't support whatever it was you were trying to say.

"whatever i was trying to say" was that decent architecture and the effect of large scale is accomplished through more than just making a really huge rectangle. and a wad/author being highly regarded isn't just some meaningless label, it's an indication that they're actually doing something right. looking at those same screenshots i posted, you see height variation in the playing field, large open areas not restricted by the boundaries of a single huge rectangle, etc etc.

AndrewB said:

You're the one that's more likely to be smoking something if you're trying to say that [LA] wads collectively lack variety. If there are any other wads with a scale comparable to these wads that have as much variety, then damn it, I want know what they are so I can try them. But if the screenshots you posted are your idea of variety, then I'd rather not get the advice from you...

i don't know what the fuck i was talking about. i guess the variety was just too vast for me to notice at first.

AndrewB said:

But there's just one common probably that infects almost all of them: They're not fun to play. They're just kinda nice to look at in a "Wow, that's impressive for the Doom engine" kind of way. But then you maybe drum up the motivation to play a few maps, and then you go and do something else, never touching the wads again. Reminds me of modern gaming.

if your idea of notable gameplay is "finding a few dozen demons or imps in a narrow hallway and mowing them down with the railgun," then i'd rather not get the advice from you...

AndrewB said:

I don't recall ANYONE saying that [LA] wads are the pinnacle of visual design. And true, there's hardly a linedef to be found that isn't on a 90 degree angle. Anyone who's played more than a few maps knows that the mapper pretty much snorts a bunch of cocaine and pumps out as many huge levels as he can as quickly as he can with about as much detail as needed to make them visually palatable. He doesn't obsess over making some pretentious masterpiece. He just lets his creative juices flow about as freely as I think is humanly possible. Anyone that listens to a lot of music created in this will way will tell you it makes for a much better end result than the homogenized, perfected process.

you know, i understand the process of just making something raw. of sitting there and just making some shit as it comes to you. but the appreciation for raw work shouldn't be unconditional, and it certainly, in my mind, is no justification for praising such work when it's a collection of hallways.

AndrewB said:

I think the most important thing to realize is that these wads should not be compared to other "highly regarded" wads, or even Doom itself. That would critically miss the point. These wads should be compared to 3D platformers, such as Mario, Zelda, Banjo Kazooie, and other games which are some of the most highly regarded of all time. It's a blend of all of these games, with a dash of Doom. If you can understand this, then maybe the appeal of the games will be a little more clear. Or maybe these games are simply too "gay" for you. That would probably explain a lot.

no, they're not too "gay" for me. i guess you're right. i do really love the bland, strictly rectangular rooms, completely lacking any organic shape at all, that you can find in Zelda, Banjo Kazooie, and Mario. wtf is wrong with me

oh. wait. wait hold on. none of those highly regarded games are made up completely of squares and rectangles are they

also. simply looking at a thread in disgust and walking away is a little harder here. it's sort of like AEoD. seeing people praise this in any way just seems like an insult to all the mappers that actually plan things out (as in spend more than 5 minutes making a map after snorting some coke) and employ some creativity in their design. why bother making megawads like AV and Scythe when you can just pull a few rectangles out your ass and get all of Mexico to worship you?

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I've played LA worlds, all of them, but I would instantly ragequit after the first map of getting tired of constantly needing to catch up to the other players.

AndrewB said:

I'm much worse at the game than others, therefore the game sucks. Classic argument.

you got it wrong, but hey, glad you're finally using the fully retarded logics of a typical la-worlder. the maps are hopeless mazes and you need all 6 keys to exit, so basically you go to one area, pick up a key... and meanwhile the other players destroy anything that lives in the rest of the map and you just stumble around to get the other 5. so yeah, you're playing constant catchup with the others, mostly those who are fans of this abomination and know where to go. at this point half the players give up on the key/switch hunt and a) shoot each other into the pits, b) block 32-unit critical lifts and hallways, c) verbally abuse each other. nothing to do with skill at this game, i'm better than you at it, so i should know.

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Now that I've played a few of these, it seems okay for a bunch of noob Zdoom maps but really there isn't anything really special about this and this was very uninspiring to play through, and the obnoxious sound replacements were very annoying. When I want to play maps that are beautiful through simplicity I'd much rather just play Icarus, Scythe or Memento Mori because atleast those had mostly intelligently designed levels.

Now that the author has got cult status in the Mexican community I hope that he/she makes something worth while.