Counterpunch wrote:Respectfully, I'd say that the topic has always been a discussion point since female Transformers were introduced in S2 of G1.

It has never been a simple or quiet issue with a lot of how and why questions remaining unanswered.

To complicate the matter further, gender and gender identity is a topic this very comic line tackles in a very strange fashion, leaving more questions than answers in its wake.

So when we have a new theme, the possibility of what might be"Romantic Love", it most certainly is a topic worth discussing at length and should not be simply taken at face value.

I don't think anyone on the cast would argue that the plot "moment' was poignant.

The questions that arise from it are, "Does this fit within the existing framework?" "Is it expanding the story framework?" "Will it have lasting relevence?"

On the gender matter, the writer has set up a few questions that really do need answers. "Are Transformers gender neutral? (This one solves almost every issue or point of discussion...)" "What does Arcee's engineered gender mean? Were the rest male? Were the rest genderless and 'females' are the only gender? Does any of it matter since gender is not a necessary element of procreation?"

Of course, even putting these questions out there is somewhat of a matter in embarrassing nerd analysis. However, this is a podcast, a discussion show, so when the fandom begins to discuss these matters, we try to do so openly and honestly.

I certainly see the need or want to discuss it. I'm just surprised the discussion for it went on for so long. I guess It just doesn't pose those questions for me. I take it that this character loves that character. Okay, I'm cool with that. Reading these in trades I am admittedly not up to the speed the rest of you are. However, I am three books in on each and Arcee's engineered gender hasn't been addressed since her Spotlight and adventures with Hardhead. It seems like it was a silly thing to do for the character IMO. I think the stance they took about gender was all wrong to begin with. Like I said before, these characters are as human as can be in their personalities. There seem to be very few exceptions. Concepts like emotion, compassion and romantic love just don't seem alien to me here. I don't think you're asking the right questions of it. From a reader's standpoint (mine, of course) the story should make me care about the characters I'm reading. Always. Otherwise, what is the point of telling their story. In More Than Meets the Eye, each character has their own interesting story, history, flaws. Things that should make you care. This simply seems like it would make me care more about the characters than I did before.

I've been holding out for awhile on posting my opinion of the Rewind/Chromedome matter, because it's difficult for me to put something down that doesn't come across as a silly fanboyish gush towards what James Roberts has done and what I think he is doing. I don't intend that and I can absolutely find fault in a little bit of his stuff, so I've been hesitant to say anything. That said, here goes nothing.

I've been waiting for years for Transformers fiction to grow up with me. It's time to explore some grey areas, time to complicate stuff, time to recognize that the Bay movies were the adolescence and now is when some material should come around that's actually somewhat humanized to the point where I have to think about it. The catch - MTMTE has humanized these characters to the point where I've had to think more critically about the different threads and characters than when humans were actually involved in the plot.

So let's go over the original concept of Transformers, at least how I viewed them as a child and foreversince - Sentient beings from the Planet Cybertron. There's a word here - sentient. To me, sentience immediately takes these characters and intrinsically inputs additional, assumed properties, things such as emotion, self-awareness, self-preservation, morality, companionship, and brotherhood.

These are pretty advanced concepts, why on earth would I think robots would intrinsically have these due to sentience? Well, they've been around for millions of years. Right? Right. Humans have been around for maybe a million-ish? Been awhile since Biology. Semi-point - humans have evolved these concepts in less time. Granted, with a whole different set of 'rules', but less time. Anyway, back to the point.

Transformers fiction has explored a lot of these concepts. In fact, most of them. Even the original series, as pointed out by many, introduced the concept of gender, or at least gender identity, into a series about robots. While this was obviously originally a test to see if little girls might actually get into this (they didn't, back then, now is different), it gosh-darned confused me at a young age - but not at -that- young of an age. It only confused me once I realized what sex was. Oh wait - sex doesn't equal gender, now does it?

Assumption now is that gender is something in TF fiction. Let us remember that gender is a social construct. Go to the seedier parts of the internet and you will be quickly reminded of this (note: if you do this, I'm not responsible for what happens to your brain ). So, gender identity is absolutely a thing in Transformers, has been since '86. Then along comes Simon Furman.

Simon Furman - c'mon man. You took a given quantity, and decided that it needed a completely perverse justification. It was never unreasonable to assume that a sentient race would develop gender as an identification mechanism. But then you made it unreasonable by making the only in fiction "Female" the equivalent of the aforementioned thing you find in the seedier parts of the internet. Then you did a disservice to women everywhere by making her absolutely **** insane. (Edit: I think I might have been a little mean here originally, thanks beer. It's just that remembering Arcee's arc from years ago, coupled with my complete disappointment with Regeneration One, has led to mean spirited comments. I respect most of Mr. Furman's contributions to the Transformers lore. )

Anyhow.

For those of you whom I have previously said - "I find transformers "Genderless" "- what I meant was non-sexual. I just didn't say the right word. But there it is.

Gender and sexuality are different things. Transformers have almost always (outside of two years) had gender. They've never had sexuality, except in the seedier and Pony-er places of the internet They are sentient beings that I've always assumed can have complex emotions and social constructs. So, along comes James Roberts, who introduces the concept that two beings in a non-sexual society/race can love each other.

What's the big deal?

It had been hinted at for issue upon issue that these two characters shared a bond beyond that of bro-ness, beyond that of friendship. Since Issue 1 of MTMTE, to be precise, and if you think I'm wrong well... I'm going off memory, so I might be. Point being, given all the other things that Transformers have always had us take for granted, why in the world has this been such a stretch for so many people? I thought the plot thread involving Rewind and Chromedome was appropriate, impactful, humanizing, and goddamn beautiful. Finally, a bond between sentient beings so strong that only a very western word (thanks, Counterpunch) can describe to my very western self exactly how strong it is.

Poignancy at it's very finest and a triumph of a story arc.

Some of you just want to make it about "the gays". Just stop. Progress left your idea behind years ago.

Finally, I feel it appropriate to address: "Does this fit within the existing framework?" "Is it expanding the story framework?" "Will it have lasting relevence?"

Does this fit within the existing framework: In my mind, yes. See above.

Is it expanding the story framework: I hope so. I'm ready for there to be more bond between the characters besides "Hey bro, nice faction symbol. Let's kick tailgate."

Will it have lasting relevance: You're damn right it will. Even as a microcosm, the discussion and thought brought about by it will stick with me as a defining moment.

I hope that this moment is the one where Transformers fiction grew up, at least in one medium, and took me along with it.

Motto:"I'm just a simple man trying to make my way in the universe. Oh, and I may or may not have been to Coruscant once or twice. Recently. Possibly."

Weapon: Dual Solar Powererd Vibro Cannons

I myself don't think that the relationship was a left-field matter. Cliffjumper in prime had appeared for five minutes, give or take; Chromedome and Rewind had been major characters in this monthly comic for over a year. I just got the first two MTMTE trade paperbacks, and there are hints of their relationship since issue one, and in almost every issue since. Granted, it wasn't like someone walking up and saying "Hey Chromedome, how are you and your boyfriend Rewind?" but it IS stated that they are almost constant companions. Then i believe in issue twelve or thirteen, Chromedome is outright stated as some latin-based cybertronian term for partner or significant other.

Also, i don't think this is meant to address homosexual relationships, but just relationships in general. I do agree that the better gender approach is "There are boy transformers and girl transformers, and that's all that will be said" Because you can have both types of relationships. But i also think that this approach is being done well; i see it as these beings are very ancient, and if they did have gender way back when, it has become outmoded by the present day. Since they do not need to sexually reproduce, there is technically no need for gender. This approach is inherently hard to convey, because most languages naturally have a concept for male and female, and i would imagine the IDW version of Cybertronian does not. Chromedome and Rewind are just two beings who love each other, there is no need for them to be male or female. I don't think this approach diminishes the LGBT community either, because since IDW Cybertronians mostly lack gender, then by nature there can be no LGBT in that species. I don't mean this to sound insensitive at all. Just as a barebones to be a transsexual you have to change sexes, and you can't do that if you don't have a sex. Im not trying to say that the LGBT community thing is stupid, it's just a moot point in a sexless society, so the comics can't help but not address it because they weren't writing a homosexual relationship, they were just writing a relationship.

Also, i think gender portrayal depends on the incarnation of the franchise. Several incarnations have had clearly defined genders, like the Beast ones, G1, animated, etc. However, IDW's Arcee is the first Cybertronian in that continuity to be distinctly female; other characters have many traits that can belong to either males or females.

I apologize if my wording offends, i did not mean it to. I am okay with either portrayal, but in this situation, i prefer that one approach, but i will certainly not mind if it is stated to be the other.

I've always wondered about TF relationships like many of you (and clearly these writers have as well). I found it fascinating in Beast Wars for example when Airazor and Tigatron merged their sparks to inhabit one body (Tigerhawk), taking on both female and male personality traits (although the voice was obviously just the same male voice Tigatron had previously, the mannerisms give away that the feminine aspects of the personality (i.e. Airazor) were still present.

In a race that does not procreate by sexual means (as far as we know in any fiction I'm aware of at least), I think this concept of two romantic partners 'merging' is very interesting and puts a whole emotional and spiritual spin on the whole matter, going into a very intimate place without getting sexual (since again, sex isn't an aspect of who the Transformers have been up to this point, at least not that we're aware of for the sake of procreation, though they have eluded to sexual attraction and even had crude comments about it such as 'serving bots minus their torso plates').

I think if IDW took it in a similar direction with Rewind and Chromedome, merging them somehow into a single being, that would be an interesting progression and adaptation of the mythos and concept of romantic love in the TF universe because it would be a way for them to act on their feelings and define very clearly a boundary where a relationship is defined as either 'just friends' or 'more than friends' (e.g. 'lovers' in human terms).

Either way, I find it very interesting that they chose to go in this direction and strike what some would view as a very controversial chord, but it's not the first time comics have tried to take a more serious tone and attempt to tackle (or at least touch on) sensitive subject matter that's relevant to human society in the real world of the reader, and I'm sure it won't be the last. That's part of what art is all about, human expression and analysis and expression of/a reflection of the human condition.

Bear in mind that all of the above comes from an individual who hasn't read the comics, so all I have to go on is what's been said in this thread and in the podcast itself, but either way, I find the whole thing to be interesting if they choose to do more with not only the (possible) concept of romantic relationships in the TF universe, but also defining ways for the bots to express it (and no, I'm not asking for some perverse physical acts etc. like some of the bizarre fanfiction out there, just something more than 'I love you', e.g. the whole '2 sparks merging' concept I referred to above).

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And you will know my name is MEGATRON when I lay my vengeance upon you!

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