What? how can such an inconsequential thing cause such hatred, like, in what way does heirlooms working till 85 impact your life so much that you would be so angry?

To YOU it may be inconsequential. I play multiple alts at a time, especially leveling them all around the same time. It makes me furious
because I was not at all a fan of the upgrade system. I found it very needlessly grindy, much like the forced faction reputation for
epics. That was equally retarded as well.

So since there was a ten level gap to the level cap, the gesture of making getting to Pandaria a little quicker by upscaling the gear for
heirlooms seemed like a godsend. I really would hate to play through Mt. Hyjal or the Underwater zone for the 16th time until I finally
can enter Pandaria.

Oh but what's this? So instead of just giving us the upscaled gear (and really, there was no good reason for them not to) we're instead
given the proverbial finger with them saying, "remember how you payed 2175 for that heirloom item? Well if you want those extra five
levels we couldve just given you, you need to now essentially, pay the EXACT SAME PRICE you payed for it originally just to get it. Oh
and don't think you can just buy the higher level item...you need to get the original first! And there's no good reason for us to do this in
the first place! We're just doing it to be dicks!"

That kind of thing is just flat out uncalled for and extremely unnecessary. Especially for players leveling multiple alts. It was a bullshit
move and a terrible decision. Hence why I'm pissed about it.

you act like with this change blizzard is personally spitting in your coco-puffs, i mean really, whats wrong with you?

So people can't get upset over a bone-headed, piss poor, and very much unpopular decision? Please. My reaction was very much
justified.

Poster's reaction was strong, but I'd have to agree with it. It's already a gold (JP) sink to get all the heirlooms, but paying twice the price to get 5 more levels is not at all proportional. This change means that pretty much the only people realistically getting all their old heirlooms upgraded are people already maxing weekly JP, casuals not so much. Hardcores don't have a monopoly on alts, it just makes sense to me to change all existing heirlooms or have an arbitrary free trade-in for the old ones.

Your logic is all over the place and you're moving the goal post constantly. PvP is different from PvE first of all, so rets healing in 3s is about as "hybrid" as a warrior "tanking" in 3s by switching into defensive stance and using defensive cool downs.

Warriors are DPS/tank hybrids, but are specialists in raids.

You want to keep debating this?

Originally Posted by crious

Secondly, enhance shamans can also heal while DPSing, just like fury warriors can tank while DPSing.

See above.

Originally Posted by crious

Actually, raids need hybrids, but since you probably haven't seen a heroic encounter in your life, I can't fault you for not knowing that. Who performs better on Tsulong; ret paladins, or rogues? The answer is ret paladins, because they can stop doing damage mid fight and heal the boss after every breath. This healing will have greater effect than any extra DPS you might get from bringing a rogue. I can continue to list more examples of where you're just flat out wrong if you'd like.

Not in 4.3. Ret healing was ridiculous if it crit mostly because it was instant. But they are both hybrids. Ret is just a true hybrid (enhance too to a lesser degree), while every other hybrid has been turned into a specialist in raids because that's the nature of the beast.

Ret healing has always been not bad, but in the past ret paladins had to actually cast and couldn't cast many heals so it was balanced. Notice that ret isn't a healer.

Can respec to fulfill a different role = hybrid.
Cannot respec to fulfill a different role = pure.

The roles are tank, healing and damage.

<snip>

TLDR:

Hybrid = can respec to fulfill a different role (damage, tanking, or healing).
Hybrid != can fill multiple roles at the same time.
Hybrid != has awesome, amazing buffs or utility.
Hybrid != pure. Beyond that, there are no shades of gray among hybrids.

I think it's time that you stop arguing Garian and just admit that in the context of WOW, you are wrong about what a hybrid class is.

a hybrid is a class that can perform 2 or more tasks, WITHOUT respeccing, in decent manner.

paladins (every specc has a healing component, which is decent or even pretty good, a ret can do 30k dps and keep a tank up for example)
druids (also healing, esp moonkins)
spriests (can switch out of shadow stance and can do pretty good healing, if needed)

every other class is, when specced into a specc, a single role class. a deathknight in frost or unholy can hardly tank, a retpaladin for example, can do good dps, and still heal, but cannot tank. its a dps-heal hybrid. former feraldruids, former!, were tank-dps hybrids. hybrids are those that have active spells in more than just one role. (not counting selfheals)

i hope this clears it up. "hybrid" is only a valid term if repseccing is NOT involved.

what you refer to when comparing a mage (dps only 3times) with a monk for example, is NOT called a hybrid. i donno what its called. but its not hybrid. hybrid formerly reffered to classes that can do 2 things without respeccing or re-gearing. thats the vanilla-definition of a hybrid.

Not in 4.3. Ret healing was ridiculous if it crit mostly because it was instant. But they are both hybrids. Ret is just a true hybrid (enhance too to a lesser degree), while every other hybrid has been turned into a specialist in raids because that's the nature of the beast.

Ret healing has always been not bad, but in the past ret paladins had to actually cast and couldn't cast many heals so it was balanced. Notice that ret isn't a healer.

Want to keep debating this kid?

As a fury warrior in raids who has tanked the raid boss through the final 10% multiple times, yes, I'd like to still debate this, because you're flat out demonstrably wrong. That does not make them specialist, it makes them hybrids, going off of the model that -you- gave for hybrids.

In 4.3 Ret healing still required a global cool down, and potentially holy power. This is a DPS sacrifice, just as an enhance shaman can use a 5 stack of malestrom weapon to use healing surge or healing rain instead of lightning bolt. To relate this to hybrid tanks, DPS warriors and DKs still retain all of their DPS abilities by going into a defensive stance, but warriors generate less rage, and death knights lose their stance bonus. That's it, same concept, small DPS sacrifice for hybrid gain.

Ret has been able to instant cast heals since the start of cataclysm, because Word of Glory is instant. That's beside the point though, because hybrids are classes that can fill different roles with different specs, and retain some abilities of each spec in all specs. The hybrid tax was removed when pure DPS specs gained utility and self heals.

Keep calling me a kid if you'd like, it doesn't make you any less wrong.

---------- Post added 2013-03-07 at 11:10 AM ----------

Originally Posted by Dhany

just fyi:

a hybrid is a class that can perform 2 or more tasks, WITHOUT respeccing, in decent manner.

paladins (every specc has a healing component, which is decent or even pretty good, a ret can do 30k dps and keep a tank up for example)
druids (also healing, esp moonkins)
spriests (can switch out of shadow stance and can do pretty good healing, if needed)

every other class is, when specced into a specc, a single role class. a deathknight in frost or unholy can hardly tank, a retpaladin for example, can do good dps, and still heal, but cannot tank. its a dps-heal hybrid. former feraldruids, former!, were tank-dps hybrids. hybrids are those that have active spells in more than just one role. (not counting selfheals)

i hope this clears it up. "hybrid" is only a valid term if repseccing is NOT involved.

what you refer to when comparing a mage (dps only 3times) with a monk for example, is NOT called a hybrid. i donno what its called. but its not hybrid. hybrid formerly reffered to classes that can do 2 things without respeccing or re-gearing. thats the vanilla-definition of a hybrid.

You're 100% correct about a class hybrid, what you're incorrect about is that a Death Knight or a Warrior cannot tank while in a DPS spec, and a Ret paladin being able to actually heal a tank through a raid boss. If you're talking 5 man instances, yes, a ret paladin can heal a tank through it, but I've also tanked a 5 man instance as fury with a dedicated healer, thus making both specs hybrids.

The core fundamental ability of a tank is to hold aggro and not die, and if played correctly every tank hybrid can do this in a DPS spec quite effectively, but cannot replace a dedicated tank on a raid level. This holds true of a hybrid healer. Hybrid healers cannot replace a healer on a raid level, unless it's a stupidly light healing fight, or your other healer(s) is/are very competent.

So, the word you're looking for is hybrid.

EDIT:

Just to clarify a little bit, for plate DPS hybrids, strength gives you more parry rating than parry does. My warrior sits at 19k strength raid buffed, which puts him roughly at 20% parry with a base 5% dodge and 5% miss, which totals to ~30% pure avoidance. Slapping on a shield raises my armor to around 55% damage reduction, and adds a base 5% block chance. This means that by using Shield Wall, I'm only taking 45% of 60% raid boss damage roughly 65% of the time. Shield Wall last 12 seconds, Die by the Sword (100% parry chance) last for 8 seconds, and as of 5.2 is extended by using Wild Strike. This gives me easily 25 seconds of tanking a heroic raid boss assuming the healers switch to healing me. Add in a Rallying Cry, Guardian Spirit, Pain Suppression, Hand of Sacrifice, Sacred Shield, Devotion Aura, Lay on Hands, Life Cocoon, and Spirit Link Totem and just about any plate tank can successfully hold threat and live through a raid boss for upwards of 60-80 seconds. That's buying almost 2 minutes. Should I go into more detail or is that enough of how to hybrid tank?

As a fury warrior in raids who has tanked the raid boss through the final 10% multiple times, yes, I'd like to still debate this, because you're flat out demonstrably wrong. That does not make them specialist, it makes them hybrids, going off of the model that -you- gave for hybrids.

In 4.3 Ret healing still required a global cool down, and potentially holy power. This is a DPS sacrifice, just as an enhance shaman can use a 5 stack of malestrom weapon to use healing surge or healing rain instead of lightning bolt. To relate this to hybrid tanks, DPS warriors and DKs still retain all of their DPS abilities by going into a defensive stance, but warriors generate less rage, and death knights lose their stance bonus. That's it, same concept, small DPS sacrifice for hybrid gain.

Ret has been able to instant cast heals since the start of cataclysm, because Word of Glory is instant. That's beside the point though, because hybrids are classes that can fill different roles with different specs, and retain some abilities of each spec in all specs. The hybrid tax was removed when pure DPS specs gained utility and self heals.

Keep calling me a kid if you'd like, it doesn't make you any less wrong.

---------- Post added 2013-03-07 at 11:10 AM ----------

You're 100% correct about a class hybrid, what you're incorrect about is that a Death Knight or a Warrior cannot tank while in a DPS spec, and a Ret paladin being able to actually heal a tank through a raid boss. If you're talking 5 man instances, yes, a ret paladin can heal a tank through it, but I've also tanked a 5 man instance as fury with a dedicated healer, thus making both specs hybrids.

The core fundamental ability of a tank is to hold aggro and not die, and if played correctly every tank hybrid can do this in a DPS spec quite effectively, but cannot replace a dedicated tank on a raid level. This holds true of a hybrid healer. Hybrid healers cannot replace a healer on a raid level, unless it's a stupidly light healing fight, or your other healer(s) is/are very competent.

So, the word you're looking for is hybrid.

EDIT:

Just to clarify a little bit, for plate DPS hybrids, strength gives you more parry rating than parry does. My warrior sits at 19k strength raid buffed, which puts him roughly at 20% parry with a base 5% dodge and 5% miss, which totals to ~30% pure avoidance. Slapping on a shield raises my armor to around 55% damage reduction, and adds a base 5% block chance. This means that by using Shield Wall, I'm only taking 45% of 60% raid boss damage roughly 65% of the time. Shield Wall last 12 seconds, Die by the Sword (100% parry chance) last for 8 seconds, and as of 5.2 is extended by using Wild Strike. This gives me easily 25 seconds of tanking a heroic raid boss assuming the healers switch to healing me. Add in a Rallying Cry, Guardian Spirit, Pain Suppression, Hand of Sacrifice, Sacred Shield, Devotion Aura, Lay on Hands, Life Cocoon, and Spirit Link Totem and just about any plate tank can successfully hold threat and live through a raid boss for upwards of 60-80 seconds. That's buying almost 2 minutes. Should I go into more detail or is that enough of how to hybrid tank?

Go into as much information as you like, you're still wrong on what blizzard, and the vast majority of wow players, consider a hybrid class.

There is however, nothing wrong with being deluded.

Your example on how a warrior is a hybrid doesn't mean jack when it was already considered a hybrid class. If it didn't have the protection spec, it would be a pure dps class and wouldn't be able to do what you know it can, and offtank for a few seconds. Same with all the hybrid classes, they can only do multiple roles (even if its short times) because they have a spec designed for the role.

I think it's time that you stop arguing Garian and just admit that in the context of WOW, you are wrong about what a hybrid class is.

"TLDR:

Hybrid = can respec to fulfill a different role (damage, tanking, or healing).
Hybrid != can fill multiple roles at the same time."

Thanks for posting this. The blue post proves what I have been saying all along. Hybrids = classes that can perform multiple roles at the same time. Obviously that doesn't work well in raids where specialists are needed. Hybrids can also fill different roles because they are hybrids. It's amazing what you learn when you read what Blizz say in context, isn't it?

Originally Posted by crious

As a fury warrior in raids who has tanked the raid boss through the final 10% multiple times, yes, I'd like to still debate this, because you're flat out demonstrably wrong. That does not make them specialist, it makes them hybrids, going off of the model that -you- gave for hybrids.

In 4.3 Ret healing still required a global cool down, and potentially holy power. This is a DPS sacrifice, just as an enhance shaman can use a 5 stack of malestrom weapon to use healing surge or healing rain instead of lightning bolt. To relate this to hybrid tanks, DPS warriors and DKs still retain all of their DPS abilities by going into a defensive stance, but warriors generate less rage, and death knights lose their stance bonus. That's it, same concept, small DPS sacrifice for hybrid gain.

Ret has been able to instant cast heals since the start of cataclysm, because Word of Glory is instant. That's beside the point though, because hybrids are classes that can fill different roles with different specs, and retain some abilities of each spec in all specs. The hybrid tax was removed when pure DPS specs gained utility and self heals.

Keep calling me a kid if you'd like, it doesn't make you any less wrong.

It's ok dude. I already won the argument. Since you guys think Blizzard is God, I will just quote Blizzard's definition of hybrid again:

"TLDR:

Hybrid = can respec to fulfill a different role (damage, tanking, or healing).
Hybrid != can fill multiple roles at the same time."

I actually cannot believe that you guys even made an issue out of this. You really need to win an argument that badly?

Raids are different because the damage is so high so hybrids don't work that well or can't last that long unless you were a ret paladin in Firelands/4.3 where you could heal very well a lot while DPSing. A DPS warrior can still tank something but not for long without a prot spec and tanking gear.

So if you reply to this I am just going to quote Blizzard again. Your gods.

Hybrid = can respec to fulfill a different role (damage, tanking, or healing).
Hybrid != can fill multiple roles at the same time."

Thanks for posting this. The blue post proves what I have been saying all along. Hybrids = classes that can perform multiple roles at the same time. Obviously that doesn't work well in raids where specialists are needed. Hybrids can also fill different roles because they are hybrids. It's amazing what you learn when you read what Blizz say in context, isn't it?

It's ok dude. I already won the argument. Since you guys think Blizzard is God, I will just quote Blizzard's definition of hybrid again:

"TLDR:

Hybrid = can respec to fulfill a different role (damage, tanking, or healing).
Hybrid != can fill multiple roles at the same time."

I actually cannot believe that you guys even made an issue out of this. You really need to win an argument that badly?

Raids are different because the damage is so high so hybrids don't work that well or can't last that long unless you were a ret paladin in Firelands/4.3 where you could heal very well a lot while DPSing. A DPS warrior can still tank something but not for long without a prot spec and tanking gear.

So if you reply to this I am just going to quote Blizzard again. Your gods.

Posting a quote from 4 years ago, you know, when the game was half as old as it is now, that is more ambiguous than you say it is? Suuuuure, you "won".

Language and maths are completely separate entities. Faggot means something to touchy Americans that is offensive, but to me (being English) it's a tasty treat, or a bundle of sticks.

Language DOES change, words and meanings change often and rapidly, through use by the majority. Maths does not.

Your quote is from 4 years ago when the "hybrid tax" was being phased out, meaning hybrid classes could perform the roles they were intended to (by spec) as well as the pure DPS classes. That quote is completely pointless now, as the hybrid tax no longer exists.

To YOU it may be inconsequential. I play multiple alts at a time, especially leveling them all around the same time. It makes me furious
because I was not at all a fan of the upgrade system. I found it very needlessly grindy, much like the forced faction reputation for
epics. That was equally retarded as well.

So since there was a ten level gap to the level cap, the gesture of making getting to Pandaria a little quicker by upscaling the gear for
heirlooms seemed like a godsend. I really would hate to play through Mt. Hyjal or the Underwater zone for the 16th time until I finally
can enter Pandaria.

Oh but what's this? So instead of just giving us the upscaled gear (and really, there was no good reason for them not to) we're instead
given the proverbial finger with them saying, "remember how you payed 2175 for that heirloom item? Well if you want those extra five
levels we couldve just given you, you need to now essentially, pay the EXACT SAME PRICE you payed for it originally just to get it. Oh
and don't think you can just buy the higher level item...you need to get the original first! And there's no good reason for us to do this in
the first place! We're just doing it to be dicks!"

That kind of thing is just flat out uncalled for and extremely unnecessary. Especially for players leveling multiple alts. It was a bullshit
move and a terrible decision. Hence why I'm pissed about it.

So people can't get upset over a bone-headed, piss poor, and very much unpopular decision? Please. My reaction was very much
justified.

I agree with you 100%, buddy. I read the patch notes and thought, "Cool about time, the main BoA pieces only go up to 80". But no, you have to "upgrade" them for the original price. Here's the thing about how pissed some of us can get over heirlooms: they took a really long time to earn, even in WotLK off Badges it will still 10+ runs per piece.

I have nearly all of them, use them all often off realm transfers etc. and I think its horsecrap they didn't just update all of them to work to 85/90 off the bat.

Language and maths are completely separate entities. Faggot means something to touchy Americans that is offensive, but to me (being English) it's a tasty treat, or a bundle of sticks.

Language DOES change, words and meanings change often and rapidly, through use by the majority. Maths does not.

Your quote is from 4 years ago when the "hybrid tax" was being phased out, meaning hybrid classes could perform the roles they were intended to (by spec) as well as the pure DPS classes. That quote is completely pointless now, as the hybrid tax no longer exists.

You are just grasping at straws to try to win an argument that you have already lost.

"TLDR:

Hybrid = can respec to fulfill a different role (damage, tanking, or healing).
Hybrid != can fill multiple roles at the same time."

A hybrid can perform multiple roles at the same time, but they need to be specialists.

That hasn't changed. Go make an elemental shaman then cast a heal spell.

You are just grasping at straws to try to win an argument that you have already lost.

"TLDR:

Hybrid = can respec to fulfill a different role (damage, tanking, or healing).
Hybrid != can fill multiple roles at the same time."

A hybrid can perform multiple roles at the same time, but they need to be specialists.

That hasn't changed. Go make an elemental shaman then cast a heal spell.

You're delusional, but it's ok to be delusional. Kinda bored with debating with you as you aren't backing up your argument, just trolling over and over with your quote from 4 years ago which isn't applicable today.

You're delusional, but it's ok to be delusional. Kinda bored with debating with you as you aren't backing up your argument, just trolling over and over with your quote from 4 years ago which isn't applicable today.

Like I said, the fundamentals have not really changed. Blizz have just made each hybrid spec more and more specialized, but they are still hybrids.

Hybrid healing was nerfed recently because a shadow priest could heal someone to full in a few flash heals.

But keep denying reality all you want. I have been reasonable here. You guys haven't. You are blinded by black and white thinking.

Like I said, the fundamentals have not really changed. Blizz have just made each hybrid spec more and more specialized, but they are still hybrids.

Hybrid healing was nerfed recently because a shadow priest could heal someone to full in a few flash heals.

But keep denying reality all you want. I have been reasonable here. You guys haven't. You are blinded by black and white thinking.

I'm not saying the fundamental concept behind hybrid has changed, just the understanding. You could do a massive survey on it and come out with the result that people think of hybrid classes because of the specs, not what they can do within one given spec.

See this is my point, if you took a warrior for example, and removed the Protection spec. Would Arms/Fury be able to use any of the moves that would be for protection? To be a hybrid, it NEEDS to have a spec for a different role. If it doesn't have a spec for a different role (rogue, mage, warlock and hunter) then they are pure classes that cannot do anything other than dps. Whereas every other class than those 4 are hybrids because the specs they have, allow them to use moves that are not specific to the role they may be in at the time.

Not that they can perform it, but they need the spec that is a different role than what they are currently in otherwise it would be a pure dps class.

I don't know if I'm making it clear, but sod it, I'm tired.

I quite enjoyed debating the issue with you so I bow out with knowledge that I know I won't change your mind, just trying to help you see from a differing point of view.

Go into as much information as you like, you're still wrong on what blizzard, and the vast majority of wow players, consider a hybrid class.

There is however, nothing wrong with being deluded.

Your example on how a warrior is a hybrid doesn't mean jack when it was already considered a hybrid class. If it didn't have the protection spec, it would be a pure dps class and wouldn't be able to do what you know it can, and offtank for a few seconds. Same with all the hybrid classes, they can only do multiple roles (even if its short times) because they have a spec designed for the role.

You should really at least read the previous page of a thread before you come in and post. I was explaining to Garian how, even in his flawed definition of what a hybrid class is, a warrior is still a hybrid. It seems people don't realize that most classes have more than 6 buttons to push because they never read their spellbook or just flat out don't know that they can do more than just their rotation when needed.

---------- Post added 2013-03-09 at 07:56 AM ----------

Originally Posted by Garian

It's ok dude. I already won the argument. Since you guys think Blizzard is God, I will just quote Blizzard's definition of hybrid again:

"TLDR:

Hybrid = can respec to fulfill a different role (damage, tanking, or healing).
Hybrid != can fill multiple roles at the same time."

I actually cannot believe that you guys even made an issue out of this. You really need to win an argument that badly?

Raids are different because the damage is so high so hybrids don't work that well or can't last that long unless you were a ret paladin in Firelands/4.3 where you could heal very well a lot while DPSing. A DPS warrior can still tank something but not for long without a prot spec and tanking gear.

So if you reply to this I am just going to quote Blizzard again. Your gods.

It's pretty clear you're the one with a need to win the argument, since you're projecting your own insecurities on to me, but that's okay.

I've already explained how even going off of your model of hybrids, every hybrid class is still a hybrid. If you choose to ignore that to protect your ego then there's nothing more I have to say. This isn't an argument, this is you rambling off your incorrect misinformation and calling everyone a kid while ignoring any argument made against your shoddy logic.

Razski, I can respect different points of view, but not if they deny reality. This entire debate is completely pointless and yet people don't want to let it go. We are debating the definition of a word when there shouldn't even be a debate.

Originally Posted by crious

I've already explained how even going off of your model of hybrids, every hybrid class is still a hybrid. If you choose to ignore that to protect your ego then there's nothing more I have to say. This isn't an argument, this is you rambling off your incorrect misinformation and calling everyone a kid while ignoring any argument made against your shoddy logic.

I only care about the truth. You are denying the truth for the sake of argument.

Even a DPS warrior can tank a bit. Just not for long without a prot spec and gear.
Elemental shamans and shadow priests can still heal. Just not for long or well.
Ret paladins can still heal. Just not enough to compete with real healers, but they could in 4.3. You could heal in vanilla with a ret spec or a prot spec in TBC as long as you had healing gear because the heals were still strong but you couldn't cast many without mana regen.

Are you following me? Those hybrids can respec to specialize, but a prot paladin can still heal (others as well) because fundamentally it's still a true hybrid given a more specialized role.

"TLDR:

Hybrid = can respec to fulfill a different role (damage, tanking, or healing).
Hybrid != can fill multiple roles at the same time."