My mom has the same cough. Has had it since she got this disease. Had her lungs checked at nothing found. We thought it was part of her cancer and it is not. Could be Sarcoidosis. You may want to go to a pulmonary specialist. This disease masks as Sarcoid with non-caseating granulomas.

About the link: Some may feel it is relevant. Everyone here is saying that our government has done this to us under some conspiracy theory ( Chem trails and all) and that we have to bring this case to court against them.

Well my link showed them they are correct. The Luminaties are doing this to us! How did you not see the connection?

This is how I feel when I read some of these posts. That site I linked to made just as much sense as the rambling I hear sometimes. But my post was removed and it made just as much sense as what is written here.

How unfair to me. I can be called a dis-information person and that gets to stay on here but my post to a government conspiracy is removed????

That is the best way those that want us to stay off topic can get to you..not you London..... scare us and have us afraid to talk to one another and have us chasing our tails with tons of false info.

It seems to be the jest of many in this forum..I fear.

Call me anytime.....I am not afraif of anyone....you should not be either.....Bush is able to take away our rights by having us scared all the time..do not let this disease do that to you! Do not let this fourm do that to you either.

I am part of a group of girls (women) that support each other by phone. There is nothing to fear as far as anyone coming after you so do not believe it.

Randy thanks for the info, but re. Sarcoidosis my Vit D levels are normal, and I got rid of the cough, but...
I do seem to have been exposed to Chlamidia Pneumoniae.
According to a doctor UK side this is common to 90% of his Lyme and CFS
patients.
The same doctor looked at my blood with his microscope, which was connected to his Laptop,and showed me the resulting "show" and I can reasonably say that my blood is not sterile.
It was pointed out to me that it contained Coccoid Bacteria and Giant Forms.
Returning to the BT debate,and the fact that this organism is the only one that is allowed to be used on organic crops as a pesticide here in the UK makes me think that this might be a common denominator....for
many years Ihave eaten only organic fruit and vegetables.

You see, I thought that the transgenic crops and the use of Bt could cause superbugs....I had gathered this information when I had a crash course > Stanfords Microbiology and Immunology Dept's " Innate immunity and genetic manipulation" Course.....But I really did not understand a lot of it.

Super bug in this sense is just a common way to refer to insects that cannot be killed by insectcides. Which is a real concern with the widespread use of Bt. But this will not make the said insect any different or more dangerous for you or me.

Here is something that states just that (re: Bt and superbugs) but I do not know how to tell a good source from a bad one on the internet.

About discrimination of relevant info on internet, that is exactly why a search engine will never replace a basic lesson. I would try to read some books on biology to start. You can find some for free on the net here. Those book are good ones. But you have to read them online, and the navigation is not excellent. But you can probbaly find them in a good library (try to find used)

Patrick

Science has proof without any certainty. Creationists have certainty without
any proof. (Ashley Montague)

Cancer and Bacteria:
This is long but they talk of coccoid and giant cell.....and TB. Now, there is an increase in TB across the nation, but, the information is being discarded by the CDC, or they are denying it. Sometimes Morgellons. looks like the cutaneous version of TB.

More than one-third of the global population is infected with the tuberculosis bacterium, and TB disease remains one of the world's leading causes of disease and death, the CDC says. Each year, 8 million people become ill with TB, and 2 million people die from the disease.

In fact, next Thursday, March 24, is World TB Day, marking the date in 1882 that scientist Robert Koch announced his discovery of the TB bacterium. The World Health Organization now uses the annual day as an international call to action against the disease.

The CDC report emphasized the latest national surveillance data show a significant, but slowing, decline in the case rate of TB. In 2004, a total of 14,511 TB cases were reported in the U.S. The overall TB case rate – 4.9 per 100,000 persons – was the lowest rate ever recorded since reporting began in 1953. However, the decline in the case rate from 2003 to 2004 was one of the smallest in more than a decade (3.3 percent compared with an average of 6.8 percent per year), the CDC acknowledged.

The agency also said that "despite the nationwide downward trend, TB continues to exact a severe toll on many U.S. communities. Seven states now bear more than half the total burden of TB disease in the U.S. California, Florida, Georgia, Illinois, New Jersey, New York, and Texas account for 59.9 percent of the national case total. The toll continues to be greatest among minority and foreign-born individuals, who consistently have higher rates of TB disease.

But CDC sources say the report is a reflection of "political correctness" inside the agency – a political effort to whitewash what some health officials see as an alarming new threat of TB's spread largely by illegal foreign immigrants.

"When you acknowledge, as the CDC has, that one-third of the world's population is carrying this bacterium and you admit that we have some 20 million foreigners inside this country largely unaccounted for, you begin to understand the threat," said one G2 Bulletin source. "It's serious. And the facts are being withheld from the American people because of political correctness toward the question of illegal immigration."

The CDC does offer some interesting statistics in its report:

In 2004, minority populations had rates of TB significantly higher than the overall U.S. average. The 2004 TB case rate among Asians was 20 times higher than that among whites (26.9/100,000 and 1.3/100,000, respectively), while blacks (11.1/100,000) and Hispanics (10.1/100,000) each had rates eight times higher than whites.
In 2004, for the first time, there were more cases of TB among Hispanics than any other ethnic group. However, the TB rate among Hispanics decreased slightly from 10.3 in 2003 to 10.1 in 2004. This divergent trend was the result of a 3.6 percent increase in the U.S. Hispanic population between 2003 and 2004.
The TB rate among foreign-born individuals (22.5/100,000) was nearly nine times the rate among persons born in the United States (2.6/100,000). Individuals born outside the United States accounted for more than half (7,701 cases, or 53.7 percent) of all new TB cases in 2004.
While the TB rate among U.S-born persons has declined 64.6 percent over the past 12 years, the rate among foreign-born persons has declined only 33.9 percent.
Ninety-five percent of Asians reported to have TB in the U.S. in 2004 were foreign-born. Foreign-born individuals also accounted for the majority – 74 percent – of cases among Hispanics in the U.S. Globally, Asia accounts for the largest number of TB cases. The impact of TB on Mexico is also worrisome because many Hispanics diagnosed with TB in the U.S. were born in that country.

"Even though preventable and treatable, TB remains a serious airborne disease – one with the ability to adapt, grow stronger, and travel from one country to another as easily as people do," said the report. "The health threat must continue to be taken seriously, both here in the U.S. and abroad."

The CDC also acknowledged the border problems by suggesting the agency was attempting to address them by strengthening "global partnerships to address TB among populations hardest-hit by the disease."

"These efforts include improving overseas screening for immigrants and refugees, and testing recent arrivals from high-incidence countries for latent TB infection," the report said. "CDC is also improving the notification system that alerts local health departments about the arrival of immigrants who are known or believed to have TB, and collaborating with public health teams in Mexico to improve TB control among those who frequently cross the U.S.-Mexico border."

Last week, a report in the Journal of American Physicians and Surgeons blew the whistle on the way illegal immigration is threatening to destroy America's prized health-care system.

"The influx of illegal aliens has serious hidden medical consequences," writes Madeleine Pelner Cosman, author of the report. "We judge reality primarily by what we see. But what we do not see can be more dangerous, more expensive, and more deadly than what is seen."

According to her study, 84 California hospitals are closing their doors as a direct result of the rising number of illegal aliens and their non-reimbursed tax on the system.

"What the Medical Establishment
Refuses to Consider
Bacteria: The Ultimate Cause of Cancer?
By Alan Cantwell, Jr., M.D.
As a physician-dermatologist I have studied various aspects of the cancer microbe for over 30 years. In my book, The Cancer Microbe (Aries Rising Press, 1990), I recount a century of research by various scientists who have documented the reality and importance of bacteria associated with cancer. Despite a wealth of information on the microbiology of cancer, this body of work has been largely ignored.

Why would medical science overlook the finding of bacterial elements in cancer, particularly when the treatment of advanced cancer is often abysmal and when the cause (or causes) of many types of cancer remain unknown? If and when the bacterial cause of cancer is widely accepted, it will be left to medical historians to determine why the medical community failed to recognise cancer bacteria. At the present time, it is fair to say that most physicians are either unaware of cancer microbe research, or ignore the published findings, or are openly hostile to this research.

Unfortunately, medical doctors are limited by dogma about cancer-associated bacteria that eliminated a bacterial cause for cancer a century ago. In the late nineteenth century, when the bacterial cause of many infectious diseases was discovered, it was decided that cancer did not act like an infectious or contagious disease, and therefore it was concluded that bacteria were not causative." ....."

..."Yet another modern example of dogma-defying research is provided by recent studies proving that bacteria (Helicobacter pylori) are a common cause of stomach ulcers, which can eventually lead to stomach cancer and lymphoma. When I went to medical school, stomach ulcers were thought to be due to stress, lifestyle, or improper diet, and it was not uncommon to send ulcer patients to psychiatrists for analysis.
For a century, physicians refused to believe that bacteria could cause ulcers because they thought bacteria could not live in the acid environment of the stomach. In 1982 a researcher, who was unable to convince his colleagues that bacteria could cause ulcers and gastritis, actually proved his case by drinking a culture of H. pylori. When he rapidly became ill with stomach symptoms, he admitted himself to the hospital where these bacteria were found to be associated with his gastric disease. It also turned out that these bacteria could indeed be detected in the stomach lining of stomach ulcers, but only when the tissue was stained in a special way to detect the bacteria. The CDC now claims that H. pylori causes more than 90% of duodenal ulcers and 80% of gastric ulcers. Approximately two-thirds of the world’s population is infected with these microbes."...

..."One perennial complaint about the so-called cancer microbe is that is pleomorphic. For some reason, the idea that a proposed cancer germ could have more than one form is a threat to doctors and some microbiologists. Indeed the cancer germ has been described as having a virus like and fungus-like, as well as mycoplasma-like phase. Such a “life cycle” is deemed nonsense and microbiologic heresy.
The many guises of the pleomorphic cancer microbe was studied extensively in the 1960s and 70s by four remarkable women scientists: Virginia Livingston (a physician); Eleanor Alexander-Jackson (a microbiologist); Irene Diller (a cytologist); and Florence Seibert, a chemist, tuberculosis expert, and inventor of the tuberculin skin test. Their individual and collaborative studies are essential reading to understand the proposed microbiology of cancer."...
----------------------------------------------
COCCOID AND LARGE CELL:
--------------------------------------------

"In all its many forms the tuberculosis microbe is certainly pleomorphic. (See the work of mycoplasma expert Lida H. Mattman.) The bacteria that cause TB are known as “mycobacteria”. Some forms of the bacillus are round “coccoid” forms; other forms are more typically “acid-fast” and “rod” forms. All mycobacteria form a phylogenetic link or bridge between the bacteria and the “higher” fungi. “Myco” is Greek for fungus. Ergo, myco-bacteria.
Under appropriate conditions, bacteria can lose their cell wall and become amorphous, smaller, highly pleomorphic “cell-wall deficient forms.” Under suitable conditions, mycoplasma can enlarge to giant-sized forms (“Large bodies”) resembling fungal and spore-like forms. It is vital to be aware of and to recognise such unusual and hard-to-detect forms in tissue microscopic sections because, in my experience, this mycoplasmal form is the form the cancer microbe takes inside the body in human disease. Due to their small size, Mycobacteria form a bridge between (larger) bacteria and smaller) viruses. Microbiologists love to separate (and classify) viruses, bacteria, mycoplasma, and fungi, as distinct entities. In fact, there is interplay between all of them. It is well-known that bacteria can be infected with viruses. Nevertheless, scientists cannot seem to understand how microbes can change into virus-like, mycoplasma-like and fungus-like infectious agents."...

..."For many years I identified cancer microbes in a variety of disease states. In The Cancer Microbe, I show photomicrographs of cancer microbes in “autoimmune” diseases such as scleroderma, in AIDS-related Kaposi’s sarcoma, in enlarged lymph nodes in AIDS, in breast cancer, in lymphoma and Hodgkin’s disease, in a lung disease called interstitial pneumonitis, in sarcoidosis, in an immunoblastic sarcoma and even in a skin cancer.
Not everyone who becomes infected with TB germs develops clinical tuberculosis. People can harbour the TB germ without ever becoming ill. The same is true for cancer microbes. Not everyone who carries them develops cancer.
According to Virginia Livingston, the microbe is “ubliquitous.” It is found in various disease states and also can be found normally. This is a difficult for some medical doctors to believe because of the idea that an infectious agent must always infect. Livingston infuriated the scientific establishment by naming the cancer microbe “Progenitor cryptocides” – meaning “hidden killer”). She claimed the microbe was present in every cell. Due to its biochemical peculiarities, the organism was responsible for initiating life and for healing of tissue; and was the microbe ultimately responsible for eventual degeneration and death of all life. Such ideas, of course, are at odds with medical thought. However, my own studies have suggested that the cancer microbe is indeed ubiquitous and indestructible, which is further reason why it should be taken seriously, particularly in diseases that are poorly understood, like cancer and “diseases of unknown etiology.”
Most importantly, cancer microbes are significant because they can be identified in the cancerous tissue in various forms of cancer. A few of these microbes can be seen in “normal” tissue, but strikingly larger numbers can be seen in the areas of the tumour. These microbes can be identified in “pre-cancerous” conditions, suggesting that these germs are present before the actual induction of the cancer. Furthermore, when cancer is “cured” by radiation and chemotherapy, the microbe can still be found in the damaged, previously cancerous areas.
The reason we cannot “cure” cancer is that we cannot stop the destruction caused by these “hidden” and “unrecognised” bacterial elements. The reason antibiotics do not work well in cancer is because the microbes (in the mycoplasmal phase inside the body) are not susceptible to antibiotics.
In cancer research, there is controversy as to whether cancer is one disease or many. For instance, could breast cancer and lung cancer and prostate cancer all be caused by the same agent. This would be deemed highly improbable, but if cancer microbes were shown to be associated with all three forms of cancer, the possibility that all three kinds of cancer might be related becomes more possible.
When Livingston and colleagues injected cancer microbes into animals and chickens, some developed cancer, some developed degenerative and proliferative diseases, and some developed nothing of note. Apparently the individual “immunity” of the host was an important factor in terms of what response the cancer microbe would elicit.
Tuberculosis infection can affect many parts of the body. Tuberculosis confined to the skin is very different disease when compared to TB of the lung or of the bone. Yet, all three manifestations of the disease are linked together because the TB germ can be found in all three. If cancer microbes are indeed proven as infectious agents in cancer – then various forms of cancer may indeed be manifestations of the same cancer microbe.
There are many “factors” that determine whether a person will become infected with TB. Obviously, smoking is a big factor in lung cancer, radiation is a big factor in skin cancer and leukemia, and so on. However, in defense of the cancer microbe theory, it would be fair to suggest that anything that damages tissue would provide a soil for the possible development of cancer microbe activity in the tissue that could lead to cancer or the development of degenerative or proliferative disease.
Finally, is cancer contagious? For a century physicians have said “no.” But now we know that certain viruses like HIV can lead to cancer. Certain wart “papilloma” viruses can be spread sexually and result in cervical cancer. If further infectious agents, like cancer microbes, are found in cancerous diseases, we may have to reevaluate the contagiosity of cancer.
Obviously in this short communication, few people will be convinced that bacteria cause cancer. For me, it took many years of study, microscopic observation, and communication with microbiologists, pathologists, and colleagues, to become convinced that Livingston and her associates were correct in their claims of a cancer microbe.
A wealth of knowledge pertaining to the cancer microbe (both pro and con) can be found on search engines such as http://www.google.com. Simply type in “cancer microbe”, “alan cantwell”, “virginia livingston”, “Eleanor Alexander-Jackson” and other names mentioned in this communication.
For a list of scientific publications in medical journals pertaining to the microbiology of cancer, go to the Pubmed website (http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov) and type in “Cantwell AR”, “Livingston VW”, “Alexander-Jackson E”, “Diller IC”, “Seibert FB.”
For serious students of the microbiology of cancer, I would recommend the following books:
Cantwell, Alan: The Cancer Microbe (1990), Aries Rising Press, Los Angeles
Cantwell, Alan: AIDS: The Mystery and the Solution (1986), Aries Rising Press
Livingston, Virginia: Cancer: A New Breakthrough (1972), Livingston Clinic, San Diego
Livingston, Virginia: The Microbiology of Cancer (1977), Livingston Clinic
Hess, David: Can Bacteria Cause Cancer (1997), NY University Press
Mattman, Lida: Cell Wall Deficient Forms; Stealth Pathogens (1993), CRC Press
Reich, Wilhelm: The Cancer Biopathy (1973), Farrar, Straus, & Giroux, New York

Alan Cantwell MD is a retired physician and cancer researcher who believes cancer is caused by bacteria and AIDS is man-made. There is probably no other physician on the planet whose publications are as controversial. Dr. Cantwell is a frequent contributor to New Dawn, and his various articles on AIDS and cancer can be found on the New Dawn website http://www.newdawnmagazine.com. Much of his research can be found on google.com, and thirty of his published papers can be accessed at http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/PubMed/ (type in Cantwell AR). He is the author of two books on the man-made epidemic of AIDS: AIDS and the Doctors of Death, and Queer Blood, and a book on the microbiology of cancer, The Cancer Microbe. His new book is called Four Women Against Cancer. Dr. Cantwell is now happily retired from the clinical practice of dermatology for 10 years, and lives in Hollywood, California. Web site: http://www.ariesrisingpress.com Email: alancantwell@sbcglobal.net."
Source:
http://www.newdawnmagazine.com/Article/ ... ancer.html

If we look at what has happened since 1972, we can get the jist of what is happening. All kinds of bacteria have been altered:
BT
BTK
BC
BC and BA in the 90's by the Russians, was mixed.
TB
E-coli is on the rise
Salmanella
Bacteria in gm foods in seeds.
add to that:
cyanobacteria on the rise
fungal infections
All an increase in BACTERIA. According to the following this is what we in Western Medicine call Cancer.
So, what is the answer?

Now, if a release included more than one bacteria mixed, the known substances of the bacteria, protein or gene from homeobox used to continue the invalid idea that we came from the one-celled organism, why then must all these novel organisms be created to prove that, or to be used to increase the bacteria level on the earth?

I see the microbes which are propelled by another type of bacteria eating organism. So, there could be altered bacteria, virus as a way to vector it, by bug or by horizontal transfer and quorum sensing which forms biofilm, the sticky stuff, and microbes are produced from this. So not only do we have bacteria, we have microbes, and possibly vector, gnat, midge, collembola, tick or a recombinant dna
transferring all to us.

When bacterias quorum sense they form a biofilm.
This biofilm is likened to a giant form bacteria.

This is fiction, but still. I doubt we are too far away from it though....

_________________________

U.S. Military Plans to Make Insect Cyborgs

U.S. Military Plans to Make Insect Cyborgs

WASHINGTON - Facing problems in its efforts to train insects or build robots that can mimic their flying abilities, the U.S. military now wants to develop "insect cyborgs" that can go where its soldiers cannot. ( Dan Brown wasn't far off in his book Deception Point)

The goal is to create technology that can achieve 'the delivery of an insect within five meters of a specific target located at hundred meters away, using electronic remote control, and/or global positioning system.'
Once at the target, 'the insect must remain stationary either indefinitely or until otherwise instructed ... (and) must also be able to transmit data from (Department of Defense) relevant sensors ... includ(ing) gas sensors, microphones, video, etc..'

The Pentagon is seeking applications from researchers to help them develop technology that can be implanted into living insects to control their movement and transmit video or other sensory data back to their handlers.

In an announcement posted on government Web sites last week, the Defense Advanced Research Projects Agency, or DARPA, says it is seeking "innovative proposals to develop technology to create insect cyborgs," by implanting tiny devices into insect bodies while the animals are in their pupal stage.

As an insect metamorphoses from a larva to an adult, the solicitation notice says, its "body goes through a renewal process that can heal wounds and reposition internal organs around foreign objects, including tiny (mechanical) structures that might be present."

The goal is to create technology that can achieve "the delivery of an insect within five meters of a specific target located at hundred meters away, using electronic remote control, and/or global positioning system." Once at the target, "the insect must remain stationary either indefinitely or until otherwise instructed ... (and) must also be able to transmit data from (Department of Defense) relevant sensors ... includ(ing) gas sensors, microphones, video, etc."

The move follows challenges the agency says it has encountered in its efforts to train insects to detect explosives or other chemical compounds, and to mimic their flight and movement patterns using small robots.

Several years ago, DARPA launched a $3 million project to train honeybees to find landmines. According to a report by the American Forces Press Service, scientists used sugar-soaked sponges treated with explosives to get the bees to identify the smell as a possible food source.

But last week's solicitation says the project didn't work out.

"These activities have highlighted key challenges involving behavioral and chemical control of insects... Instinctive behaviors for feeding and mating -- and also for responding to temperature changes -- prevented them from performing reliably," it says.

As far as the development of purely robotic or mechanical unmanned aerial vehicles -- so-called micro-UAVs -- the solicitation says that developing energy sources both powerful and light enough "present(s) a key technical challenge."

Both sets of challenges "might be effectively overcome" by the development of insect cyborgs, says the solicitation.

The devices DARPA wants to implant are micro-electro-mechanical systems, or MEMS. MEMS technology uses tiny silicon wafers like those used as the basis for computer microchips. But instead of merely laying circuits on them, MEMS technology can actually cut and shape the silicon, turning the chip into a microscopic mechanical device.

The solicitation envisages the implanted device as a "platform" onto which "various microsystem payloads can be mounted ... with the goal of controlling insect locomotion, sens(ing) local environment, and scaveng(ing) power."

"Possible methods of locomotion control may be sensory manipulation, direct muscle interface, or neural interface to the insect," says the document, known as a Broad Agency Announcement. It goes on to say that sensory manipulation, for instance by projecting ultrasonic vibrations or ejecting pheromones, is likely to be species-specific, whereas technology to directly control insect muscles or brains "may be more general."

DARPA believes that the heat and mechanical power generated by the insects themselves as they move around "may be harnessed to power the microsystem payload" eliminating the need for batteries or other power systems.

The objective is to transform the insects into "predictable devices that can be used for various micro-UAV missions requiring unobtrusive entry into areas inaccessible or hostile to humans."

Among potential missions, says the solicitation, would be the collection of "explosive signatures from within buildings, caves, or other inaccessible locations."

Although flying insects like dragonflies and moths are "of great interest," the document says, "Hopping and swimming insects could also meet final demonstration goals."

Implanting the devices during pupation is key, says the document, because "the insects are immobile and can be manipulated without interference from instinctive motion."

As part of their honeybee training project, DARPA glued tiny radio transmitters to the bees, to help track their movement.

The solicitation says that the healing processes which insects go through as they change from larvae into adults "are expected to yield more reliable bio-electromechanical interface... as compared to adhesively bonded systems to adult insects."

Inserting the devices in pupae could also "enable assembly-line like fabrication of hybrid insect-MEMS interfaces, providing a considerable cost advantage," says the solicitation.

DARPA will hold a day-long conference for contractors interested in submitting proposals on March 24.

Mazie wrote:I have been reading this page for sometime and the information shared is incredible! So many are so smart and helpful, I'm truly amazed. But I have a question for London.London on a previous page you said someone here is a fake and a fed but you didn't name themm, would you please tell us who this person is, we need to know. This is scary and uncomfortable, this is my first post and I'm almost afraid to post it but I think it's very important. thank you so much. Mazie

Dont worry about that.
some people I think get a bit paranoid.

"How far you go in life depends on your being tender with the young, compassionate with the aged, sympathetic with the striving and tolerant of the weak and strong. Because someday in life you will have been all of these".

It will take me days, no weeks to assimilate the information contained in your post.
Lida Mattmans' work though is familiar.
Is it true to say that she was arrested as a means of keeping her "quiet" after she revealed her discoveries re. pleomorphism
and that when she was conducting tests commented that it was "hard to find people who were not infected"
(with pleomorphic bacteria)...?

There is also an increase in TB in this nation, but there are no public awareness programs alerting the population of the possibility of infection, as this news, in the UK, politically, is a no go area too.
The UK, more specifically, London, particularly Central London, has seen a massive influx of people from all over the world. TB is not that uncommon and I see the pallor, tracking and skin-thickening effects of our infection on lots of people.

I am sure this story is an old chestnut, and might confirm that this infection is not from outer space,because it is rumoured that all the aliens who have examined the situation on Earth have taken one look here, and fled, stating its apparent infestation with a Macroscopic, intelligent, highly motile, pleomorphic bacteria that spends long periods moving back and forth along tracks, encased in a metallic jacket, belching myco toxins beneath overlapping layers of bio-film...as the reason.

It seems also that our quorum sensing abilities are now being eroded, we have just about lost the sense of intuition and illness and epidemics are common, ensuring that we are confined to one area and can not colonise further.
Much to the relief of the rest of the universe.

This is a bit... ermm.... Saturday evening... but we do share genes with the mushroom after all.