If this is your first visit, be sure to
check out the FAQ by clicking the
link above. You may have to register
before you can post: click the register link above to proceed. To start viewing messages,
select the forum that you want to visit from the selection below.

For an advertisement free forum environment, plus increased privileges and permissions, consider becoming a forum sponsor for $3.95 a month. Click the “Sub” link for more info.

Ava Fleming's "Hips" dvd from IAMED was the first time I actually heard an instructor say "don't pull in with your abs to align the pelvis." The way she described it, it sounded more like you were using the front of the thigh, or the movement generated from the place where your leg and torso meet. ???

Certainly not "in" - up. Like pulling up a fly zip. I think it is the pyramidis - but I don't have my reference books on hand and have a sporodic memory.

What does it feel like to "pull" your psoas? If you're really exercising it hard, will you be sore the next day in the area where you would have a C-section, or right above and to the side of the pubic bone?

Ava Fleming's "Hips" dvd from IAMED was the first time I actually heard an instructor say "don't pull in with your abs to align the pelvis." The way she described it, it sounded more like you were using the front of the thigh, or the movement generated from the place where your leg and torso meet. ???

Aziyade, Oh, you have so many questions that I am sorry, I can not answer… the only thing I can say is that when I used to exercise hard and pull this muscle, I was sore to the side of the pubic bone.

By all means I am not an expert so I am only sharing my personal experience.

I don’t have Ava Fleming's "Hips" so I don’t have an opinion, but after reading Kashmir’s response I went online to research the pyramidis, and I found that apparently some 20% of people are missing these muscles and some of us may have them on only one side!

This made me think that perhaps we are all built slightly differently, and different things make sense for our bodies… I was thinking that ballet - as you mentioned Aziyade - short of forces the body into unnatural poses, whereas bellydance uses the body’s natural movements, so everyone has a more “individualised” way of doing things.

Aziyade, Oh, you have so many questions that I am sorry, I can not answer… the only thing I can say is that when I used to exercise hard and pull this muscle, I was sore to the side of the pubic bone.

No -- this helps a lot!! When I pull (for example) my right hip backwards and to the left -- like pulling it diagonally through my body -- I feel the tension on the inside of the lower right iliac crest, so I think that must be the muscle we're talking about.

Ranya's Baladi dvd talks about the feeling of pulling through your body -- the yellow rope image -- and when I do that I feel the tension in the space somewhere between the navel and the bottom of the pubis. I consider that generally just the low ab area, since I haven't been able to isolate more than one contraction in that area.

Sorry to thread hijack, but I'm still trying to identify how many possible areas of "isolation" in the ab muscles we can achieve. I think I have 3, but I know some people who say they have 4, so I'm always working to find two separate points of isolation in the low abs. It's also weird to know that some people have missing muscles!

thanks everyone for the replies and thread hijacking is extremely interesting...

I've realised the upper body does make a huge difference (hence the distinctive ATS posture)...and I need to watch Ava's posture instruction again. Ansuya definitely says to lengthen and I'm fairly sure ava says to maintain natural curve. And I really see a difference between different professional dancers on compilation/performance dvds...

My friend is a physio and she checked my back for me. Apparently the muscles either side of the spine in my very lower back (around the lumbar curve) have been on holidays for a long time, and she has given me some exercises to strengthen them. I'm not an expert, just been reading a lot of anatomy and phsyiology books lately - but I doubt some people are truly missing any muscles. More likely some muscles haven't been working properly due to poor posture (like me) and are next to useless...so baby steps to get them 'activated' again and then on to strengthening...

I'm guessing that some teachers get used to working with a certain type of student (with regards to fitness) and modify instructions to suit students rather than to the 'ideal' if that makes any sense. In ballet they 'turn out' because that allows for a greater extension and lift of the leg (used in yoga too) - but getting someone who has never done it, is inflexible or unfit may result in exessive turn of the foot, rather than the hip, stressing the knees. So the instruction to turn out is avoided. - So is the instruction to maintain a natural curve usually avoided because a large number of students don't have the strength in the lower back to support it?..

sorry for the long post...still wondering about it. maybe it's just that there is no codified system of teaching in bellydancing as there is in other dances, so everyone has gone off on their own so to speak...

for your interest (or not!) ...I just got the dvd that goes with the book stretching and flexibility (great book, has a ton of good exercises written by a guy that only became flexible as an adult after years of trying! So there is hope for me...)

anyway...he does the pilates exercise where you lie on your stomach and alternate lifting opposite arms and legs, a bit like swimming...he's talking for a bit and then talks about the importance of neutral spine. He has the model get on all fours and put a thin bamboo pole along her back so you can clearly see the curves of the neutral spine. Then asking her to lift one leg with the glutes (as in the exercise) he shows how immediately how the lumbar curve deepens and instructs to pull in the stomach to return to the neutral spine, but this still has it's slight curve. I don't if what I've said is completely clear (sorry!) but I'm starting to understand why Ava says to maintain the curve, even though 'bracing' the stomach/core muscles (can't remember her exact words).

not sure if this is helpful to anyone...but I feel like things are becoming clearer as I try to answer my own questions :-)

technically, to protect the back, proper alignment during all movement is what you want to have. For any dance move, there is a "most stable" position to be in, and that should be something we strive for. The biggest problem is that most people have very little self awareness. In my opinion, the spine should be in the neutral position, but many of your students will not know what neutral position is and do not stand in a neutral position naturally. There are also students that will need to use a form of tuck to do the dance safely due to previous injury. We need to be flexible and aware that injuries will affect the way our students need to move and realize that when we teach them to be in the most stable position for each move that they will be safer.