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Yeah.Officer retention.All those jobs listed are mainly Officer roles. I don't see Mowag Driver(one of our key o/seas enablers) on that list for example.

I swear to god I would love to see someone with a commission,just once,GENUINELY,put their issues second and put their troops first. How the f**k can you be a leader with no troops to lead!!!
There should be no such thing as PDFORRA or a need for PDFORRA taking court cases or cases to the EU Council. No need at all if our Officers looked after their people.
But no.
Instead of "Officers Eat last" we get "Officers Eat first".

The truth is that people are applying to keep their Job seekers allowance not because they are attracted to the job. This is borne out by the numbers who actually even show up for the fitness test . Smoke and Mirrors.

Originally Posted by Fantasia

GRO 43/55 Para 27 prohibits members of the DF petitioning elected representatives on anything to do with military service.

You can however engage with them on things like social housing

Beat me to it

Infantry Corps - An LÃ¡mh Comhrac

"Let us be clear about three facts:First of all.All battles and all wars are won in the end by the Infantryman.Secondly the Infantryman bears the brunt of the fighting,his casualties are heavier and he suffers greater extremes of fatigue and discomfort than the other arms.Thirdly,the art of the Infantryman is less stereotyped and harder to acquire than that of any other arm".
-- Field Marshall Earl Wavell.1948

Yeah.Officer retention.All those jobs listed are mainly Officer roles. I don't see Mowag Driver(one of our key o/seas enablers) on that list for example.

I swear to god I would love to see someone with a commission,just once,GENUINELY,put their issues second and put their troops first. How the f**k can you be a leader with no troops to lead!!!
There should be no such thing as PDFORRA or a need for PDFORRA taking court cases or cases to the EU Council. No need at all if our Officers looked after their people.
But no.
Instead of "Officers Eat last" we get "Officers Eat first".

And we wonder why people are broken and voting with their feet.

APOD, you keep coming across as a bitter individual trying to push an us versus them agenda.

I can honestly tell you, every single individual I have ever discussed the matter of retention with from COS level, through the hierarchy all the way down to junior NCO have been keen to highlight the plight of the Pte soldier.

That being said, it is much easier to replace a line Pte than it is a marine Engr or a pilot or an ordnance officer so if the organisation puts more priority on those appointments then I support that decision. Prioritisation is a requirement of leadership

APOD, you keep coming across as a bitter individual trying to push an us versus them agenda.

I can honestly tell you, every single individual I have ever discussed the matter of retention with from COS level, through the hierarchy all the way down to junior NCO have been keen to highlight the plight of the Pte soldier.

That being said, it is much easier to replace a line Pte than it is a marine Engr or a pilot or an ordnance officer so if the organisation puts more priority on those appointments then I support that decision. Prioritisation is a requirement of leadership

Not bitter.Far from it.Cynical yes.But not bitter. 21 + years of watching DF politics has made me so.

I really ,honestly,hand on my heart wish what i am about to say wasn't true and maybe I am being naive and hopeful that something will change but my experience tells me otherwise.And this statement proves it

"That being said, it is much easier to replace a line Pte than it is a marine Engr or a pilot or an ordnance officer so if the organisation puts more priority on those appointments then I support that decision. Prioritisation is a requirement of leadership"

It's an Officers Army.

Enlisted Pers are seen as disposable.Problem is the jobs CANNOT be done without the troops to do them. Try putting a Platoon on the ground for anything with no Pte's.

I just finished reading the Report of the PSPC 2017.The Defence sector part referenced the DoD/DPER submissions along with RACo. No mention of PDFORRAs.

Simply put.The grunts don't count. Our so called minister rubs our bellies and whispers platitudes and announces parades to Honor our service. You know what the average grunt thinks of that?? "Great more ceremonial,more rehearsals,more speeches telling us how great we are but nothing concrete to make our lives better even though we are blue in the face and down on our knees telling anybody who will listen how bad things are".

NO MORE BULLSHIT.DO SOMETHING ABOUT IT!!!

Last edited by apod; 8th May 2018 at 21:14.

Infantry Corps - An LÃ¡mh Comhrac

"Let us be clear about three facts:First of all.All battles and all wars are won in the end by the Infantryman.Secondly the Infantryman bears the brunt of the fighting,his casualties are heavier and he suffers greater extremes of fatigue and discomfort than the other arms.Thirdly,the art of the Infantryman is less stereotyped and harder to acquire than that of any other arm".
-- Field Marshall Earl Wavell.1948

The fact of the matter is that a 3 star can be trained in 6 months. It takes 6 years to train a marine engineer, 4 years to train an ordnance officer, 4 years to train a pilot. The facts of the matter are that it does take longer to train the people that were listed in that article than it takes to train a line Pte.

I can see that you are passionate about the organisation. Like me, you have given it over 50% of your life. For us not to be passionate about wanting to change the rut we are in would be very disinginuous.

The fact of the matter is that a 3 star can be trained in 6 months. It takes 6 years to train a marine engineer, 4 years to train an ordnance officer, 4 years to train a pilot. The facts of the matter are that it does take longer to train the people that were listed in that article than it takes to train a line Pte.

Agreed.But those Line Ptes are the Future Mowag drivers,Aircraft Techs,rangers,paramedics,Heavy vehicle mechanics,NCO's etc etc etc the list goes on. We need to start realising that if those Line Ptes are dropping out or being forced out than we will have no one to go into the specialised roles later in their careers. No point in upgrading our Mowags for example if all the Mowag drivers are gone before they can be upskilled.
Next year for example my unit will loose both those Pte's and Cpl's who have 21 and 31 years done respectively at the same time.The younger lads have a high proportion of our Mowag crews(most with multiple trips done with the cars) within their cohort.This is just before we enter our deployment cycle. Are we seriously going to entrust millions of euros worth of taxpayers money,not to mention the lives of the troops in the back to inexperienced crews when if we had a fit for purpose retention system those fit and able people could give a few more years of service??

I can see that you are passionate about the organisation. Like me, you have given it over 50% of your life. For us not to be passionate about wanting to change the rut we are in would be very disinginuous.

Bang on Sir.I have been in uniform since I was six...ahem..seventeen. I see the way the organisation is being ran into the ground and it is driving me nuts. I hate the way that in order for me to be able to vent like this to an Officer I have to post anonymously on an internet forum. I hate the way everybody bites their tongue at the General staffs "Town halls" because they are afraid to end up on the CO's mat if the say what they really feel and that the G.S go away thinking everything is hunky dory because of that.

The sad thing is that those who would have the most to say are usually those who would maybe get animated but still be respectful and are the most loyal to the organisation and the state.

God I miss D.E. Whenever you talked to him you KNEW he really,really cared.We were all like his kids and we would have followed him anywhere.

Infantry Corps - An LÃ¡mh Comhrac

"Let us be clear about three facts:First of all.All battles and all wars are won in the end by the Infantryman.Secondly the Infantryman bears the brunt of the fighting,his casualties are heavier and he suffers greater extremes of fatigue and discomfort than the other arms.Thirdly,the art of the Infantryman is less stereotyped and harder to acquire than that of any other arm".
-- Field Marshall Earl Wavell.1948

The general staff are actively pushing to get everyone that is medically and physically fit to be allowed serve to 50.

That will take some of the pressure, however as I told the COS & ACOS, they MUST secure that ASAP and info the troops, people need to know if they have a job in 12 months time.

The DF needs experienced Ptes and Cpls for roles too. A 21 year old is a waste in the orderly room or stores.

The delay in promoting Ptes to Cpl are causing problems in units. I would introduce a rank of L/Cpl or similar for those with the cse done but waiting for a vacancy. It should attract a small pay rise, say 50% of the difference between Pte and Cpl, be restricted to in barrack duties and Sec 2i/c on exercises but otherwise be treated as an NCO

its what they are being fed from the day they enter the DF, the only people who will make a difference are those who have served in the ranks and then go for cadetships.

Unfortunately most of these are classed as second class citizens by their peers and spend most of their careers fighting their own corner rather than being able to give all to the enlisted.

I hate the way everybody bites their tongue at the General staffs "Town halls" because they are afraid to end up on the CO's mat if the say what they really feel and that the G.S go away thinking everything is hunky dory because of that

Because from day one in the door thats what you are taught as the officers are taught to expect that . If the officers and the enlisted were to go through the same basic training together and officer candidates weeded out at the end and then progressed through an accelerated training programme , something like the Singaporean Army do with NCOs , we probably would end up with officers who at least had a common denominator with their men.

Given our cadet system is modeled on the UK system where the cadets were selected from gentry there are still overtures of a tier society in its make up, speaking to a cadet recently even he couldn't believe how tiered it is and how driven to remain so it is.

So its not surprising the lack of 'leadership' given how career oriented individuals become and because their progression depends on how they do rather than there mens welfare they are never going to be advocates for the rights of the enlisted.

So we end up with PDFORRA and the requirement for access to the courts.

To sum up I suppose its not going to change until the persons at the top have walked in the shoes of those at the bottom, but not to try would be disengenous to those who will follow.

The general staff are actively pushing to get everyone that is medically and physically fit to be allowed serve to 50.

Not bad but they need to move fast.
[QUOTE]

That will take some of the pressure, however as I told the COS & ACOS, they MUST secure that ASAP and info the troops, people need to know if they have a job in 12 months time.

It may be too late .Some of the lads coming up to 21 next year are going already to beat the rush.The lads/lasses we really need to hang onto.

The DF needs experienced Ptes and Cpls for roles too. A 21 year old is a waste in the orderly room or stores.

We have guys serving in stores who are even younger just because there is no one else there to do those jobs.Absolutely crazy but there it is.

The delay in promoting Ptes to Cpl are causing problems in units. I would introduce a rank of L/Cpl or similar for those with the cse done but waiting for a vacancy. It should attract a small pay rise, say 50% of the difference between Pte and Cpl, be restricted to in barrack duties and Sec 2i/c on exercises but otherwise be treated as an NCO.

Why stop there? Bring in a full LCpl Rank.It would save the DF money.A new course would be shorter and could be run at unit level like in the UK.It would sort the wheat from the chaff as to who should go onto full Cpl.And it would be an a carrot for the lads to achieve that wasn't perceived as a massive hurdle like the Current POT's cse is.
Good thinking though. What about a BSM of the DF's appointment any interest in that with the Bosses??

Infantry Corps - An LÃ¡mh Comhrac

"Let us be clear about three facts:First of all.All battles and all wars are won in the end by the Infantryman.Secondly the Infantryman bears the brunt of the fighting,his casualties are heavier and he suffers greater extremes of fatigue and discomfort than the other arms.Thirdly,the art of the Infantryman is less stereotyped and harder to acquire than that of any other arm".
-- Field Marshall Earl Wavell.1948

Don't remember hearing of any TBH. There are 2 x BSM in DFHQ. 1 in SPB and 1 in J1 so they are in positions they can influence.

No. I am talking about creating an appointment to be the Senior Sgt major/Warrant officer in the DF.Top dog and the CoS's eyes,ears and right hand man.
I know it has been proposed before .The idea even placed high in the CoS's Innovation awards this year.
Look at WO1 Houghton in the UK as an Example.
We don't even need to create a new vacancy. Get rid of the BSM's vacancy in the Glen(do we really need a BSM in a training camp??Kilworth does fine without one) once that incumbent retires and move the vacancy to DFHQ with a new title and status.

Infantry Corps - An LÃ¡mh Comhrac

"Let us be clear about three facts:First of all.All battles and all wars are won in the end by the Infantryman.Secondly the Infantryman bears the brunt of the fighting,his casualties are heavier and he suffers greater extremes of fatigue and discomfort than the other arms.Thirdly,the art of the Infantryman is less stereotyped and harder to acquire than that of any other arm".
-- Field Marshall Earl Wavell.1948

No. I am talking about creating an appointment to be the Senior Sgt major/Warrant officer in the DF.Top dog and the CoS's eyes,ears and right hand man.
I know it has been proposed before .The idea even placed high in the CoS's Innovation awards this year.
Look at WO1 Houghton in the UK as an Example.
We don't even need to create a new vacancy. Get rid of the BSM's vacancy in the Glen(do we really need a BSM in a training camp??Kilworth does fine without one) once that incumbent retires and move the vacancy to DFHQ with a new title and status.

There are changes being proposed to the organisation. We are hamstrung by ECF at the moment but the acknowledgement is there that the current set up is wrong.

There are changes being proposed to the organisation. We are hamstrung by ECF at the moment but the acknowledgement is there that the current set up is wrong.

Cool. Sounds promising.
Comms are key though.Get the message out.Bring back the monthly Connect and have actual news in it as opposed to stupid posters.

Infantry Corps - An LÃ¡mh Comhrac

"Let us be clear about three facts:First of all.All battles and all wars are won in the end by the Infantryman.Secondly the Infantryman bears the brunt of the fighting,his casualties are heavier and he suffers greater extremes of fatigue and discomfort than the other arms.Thirdly,the art of the Infantryman is less stereotyped and harder to acquire than that of any other arm".
-- Field Marshall Earl Wavell.1948

I just finished reading the Report of the PSPC 2017.The Defence sector part referenced the DoD/DPER submissions along with RACo. No mention of PDFORRAs.

In fairness, maybe RACO did a better job outlining the issues or maybe PSPC picked the RACO because DF starts to get half decent at Comdt level.

The thing about PDFORRA is they aren’t there for the good of the DF, neither is RACO. They are there for the good (allegedly at times IMHO).

Absolutely there is an argument that what’s good for the soldier is good for the DF but not always.

Originally Posted by Fantasia

The fact of the matter is that a 3 star can be trained in 6 months. It takes 6 years to train a marine engineer, 4 years to train an ordnance officer, 4 years to train a pilot. The facts of the matter are that it does take longer to train the people that were listed in that article than it takes to train a line Pte.

not forgetting Tech ptes

Originally Posted by apod

.
The younger lads have a high proportion of our Mowag crews(most with multiple trips done with the cars) within their cohort....... to inexperienced crews

say again?

Bang on Sir.I have been in uniform since I was six...ahem..seventeen. I see the way the organisation is being ran into the ground and it is driving me nuts. I hate the way that in order for me to be able to vent like this to an Officer I have to post anonymously on an internet forum. I hate the way everybody bites their tongue at the General staffs "Town halls" because they are afraid to end up on the CO's mat if the say what they really feel and that the G.S go away thinking everything is hunky dory because of that.

i was at one. My BQ stood up and asked serious deep questions of the COS, they were answered IMHO honestly.

Originally Posted by Fantasia

APOD, you keep coming across as a bitter individual trying to push an us versus them agenda.

I can honestly tell you, every single individual I have ever discussed the matter of retention with from COS level, through the hierarchy all the way down to junior NCO have been keen to highlight the plight of the Pte soldier.

That being said, it is much easier to replace a line Pte than it is a marine Engr or a pilot or an ordnance officer so if the organisation puts more priority on those appointments then I support that decision. Prioritisation is a requirement of leadership

+1

Originally Posted by Fantasia

The DF needs experienced Ptes and Cpls for roles too. A 21 year old is a waste in the orderly room or stores.

The delay in promoting Ptes to Cpl are causing problems in units. I would introduce a rank of L/Cpl or similar for those with the cse done but waiting for a vacancy. It should attract a small pay rise, say 50% of the difference between Pte and Cpl, be restricted to in barrack duties and Sec 2i/c on exercises but otherwise be treated as an NCO

Why is the delay?
Is it waiting on courses to be completed or waiting for the admin?

Originally Posted by hptmurphy

iSo its not surprising the lack of 'leadership' given how career oriented individuals become and because their progression depends on how they do rather than there mens welfare they are never going to be advocates for the rights of the enlisted.

So we end up with PDFORRA and the requirement for access to the courts.

To sum up I suppose its not going to change until the persons at the top have walked in the shoes of those at the bottom, but not to try would be disengenous to those who will follow.

The thing is that not all leaders will say what was pushed up the line and what was said (standing up for the chain of command).

No. I am talking about creating an appointment to be the Senior Sgt major/Warrant officer in the DF.Top dog and the CoS's eyes,ears and right hand man.
I know it has been proposed before .The idea even placed high in the CoS's Innovation awards this year.
Look at WO1 Houghton in the UK as an Example.
We don't even need to create a new vacancy. Get rid of the BSM's vacancy in the Glen(do we really need a BSM in a training camp??Kilworth does fine without one) once that incumbent retires and move the vacancy to DFHQ with a new title and status.

The thing about PDFORRA is they aren’t there for the good of the DF, neither is RACO. They are there for the good (allegedly at times IMHO).

The good of who??

Absolutely there is an argument that what’s good for the soldier is good for the DF but not always.

I dunno.Morale is a force multiplier.

say again?

Sorry I thought I was clear. The younger(compared to blokes with 31 done) lads who will retire next year after completing 21 years have a high proportion of specialists within that group.Specialists that take years to train up.The first of the upgraded Mowags are coming on stream soon and every Infantry Mowag crewman will need to be upskilled to crew them IOT to serve in those appointments overseas.Our experienced lads will be gone and newly qualified people with feck all time behind the wheel will be asked to step up. Not exactly ideal.

i was at one. My BQ stood up and asked serious deep questions of the COS, they were answered IMHO honestly.

Been at a few myself.SNCO's will spark up.They are going no higher usually and have little to loose also they are more comfortable speaking to senior officers. Young Pte's will keep shtum as the CO and BSM are at the back of the room listening and woe betide anyone who embarrases them. I would love to see a town hall where the Generals kick all the Officers and SNCO's out of the room and then sit there and listen.No speeches.Just listen.
Perhaps have a separate town hall for the the higher ups so they don't feel left out??

Infantry Corps - An LÃ¡mh Comhrac

"Let us be clear about three facts:First of all.All battles and all wars are won in the end by the Infantryman.Secondly the Infantryman bears the brunt of the fighting,his casualties are heavier and he suffers greater extremes of fatigue and discomfort than the other arms.Thirdly,the art of the Infantryman is less stereotyped and harder to acquire than that of any other arm".
-- Field Marshall Earl Wavell.1948

No. I am talking about creating an appointment to be the Senior Sgt major/Warrant officer in the DF.Top dog and the CoS's eyes,ears and right hand man... Look at WO1 Houghton in the UK as an Example...

while the ASM concept has been an undoubted success, and i'd unhesitatingly reccomend others follow it, its aims and intention is something that fits within the Officer Corps ethos in the BA - to a great extent he pushes at an open door, he certainly has greater granularity than CGS or the average 1*, but he doesn't have to swim against the tide.

if the culture and ethos within the Officer Corps in the DF is different then - unless he'll be regularly interviewed by your version of the defence select committee - he's going to be throwing sand in the sea.

i've said it before and i'll say it again - journalists are your friends, you need to develop a much healthier disregard for the rules regarding off the record briefings...

The good of their members (allegedly at time IMHO, definitely not all at the same time)

That at times isn’t the same as the needs of the organisation

I dunno.Morale is a force multiplier.

definitely

Sorry I thought I was clear. The younger(compared to blokes with 31 done) lads who will retire next year after completing 21 years have a high proportion of specialists within that group.Specialists that take years to train up.The first of the upgraded Mowags are coming on stream soon and every Infantry Mowag crewman will need to be upskilled to crew them IOT to serve in those appointments overseas.Our experienced lads will be gone and newly qualified people with feck all time behind the wheel will be asked to step up. Not exactly ideal.

thanks agreed

Been at a few myself.SNCO's will spark up.They are going no higher usually and have little to loose also they are more comfortable speaking to senior officers. Young Pte's will keep shtum as the CO and BSM are at the back of the room listening and woe betide anyone who embarrases them. I would love to see a town hall where the Generals kick all the Officers and SNCO's out of the room and then sit there and listen.No speeches.Just listen.
Perhaps have a separate town hall for the the higher ups so they don't feel left out??

if the culture and ethos within the Officer Corps in the DF is different then - unless he'll be regularly interviewed by your version of the defence select committee - he's going to be throwing sand in the sea.

i've said it before and i'll say it again - journalists are your friends, you need to develop a much healthier disregard for the rules regarding off the record briefings...

The military rarely (if ever) appear in front of the Oireachtas Defence Committee.

Ropebag thats an interesting point , that side of the BA is a much bigger part and so is the media off the record side. This is something historically we are piss poor at I follow ASM and Dan Dailey on twitter they are certainly out and about quite a bit !

The DOD control the majority of the budgets. There are budgets devolved to DF but again with oversight by DOD. If something goes tits up it is the Sec Gen that appears as it is his Dept

You are referring to the budget Defence committee meetings, which are required annually by law, alternatively the PAC committee if Defence matters come up ; I've read nearly every single committee hearing and not all of them are financial related.