To Blue posters... Hubris is not a good thing

Add me to those who are weighing up the 'stay or go' decision with World of WarCraft.

I really love this hobby, I love my guild and enjoy the company of my guildmates.

Let me start by saying that yes i'm a casual, I admit I'm not the guy you'd want tanking your hard mode 25 man world first raids, I sometimes stand in bad stuff.

For me, Vanilla wow was a bitter sweet thing, sweet on one hand in that it was quite a fun hobby, bitter in that due to not really being into the whole 40 man molten core routine, or even in a 40 man raiding guild, I had to accept that an awful lot of game content would never be seen by me or those of my ilk, but we kept plodding on, doing BG's, questing, levelling alts and generally being the invisible 'filler' to the MMO scene.

Burning crusade was a step in the right direction, better questing than vanilla, some interesting encounters, plenty of instances, more BG's, and TWO (yes TWO) ten man raids!! For my little guild it was a godsend, yes we spend months enjoying Karazhan, sure we probably wiped on stuff the hardcore players would do with 2 players in greens with one of them offline but dammit, we enjoyed, for us it was hard but we got there in the end ;-)

Then.. WOTLK... for me and many, many other wow players of similiar ilk to myself and our guildies WOTLK was a wonderful experience, full line-up of 10 man raid content, plenty of instances, some fun achieves to work towards and the knowledge that if we tried hard, stuck with it, we would be able to one day perhaps get a shot at the Lich King himself.

Sure, we never did hard mode Ulduar, never killed Algalon, probably wiped way too many times on Sindragosa, and yes.. by close of WOTLK 'heroics' were fairly easy and farmable.

Then along comes Cataclysm....

To me WoW once again is begining to taste bitter / sweet, we've lost all but one of our healers, i'm the last tank standing, we're going to rebuild, we're working on heroics, but...I think you guy at Blizz missed the mark with heroics and i'll come right out and say it, you have tuned them too tightly.

A real sense of arrogance is comming from the blue posters and frankly I find it dissapointing.

I know what you were trying to achieve, you wanted Heroics to be more formidable, that's ok...I know that there are varying levels of skill, I know that there are players way better than me and my friends both in and external to our guild, I know that.

I don't expect heroics to be a face-roll, and frankly for me they weren't a faceroll in Cata, but I think you've set the bar too high for people who are still trying to gear up.

Healers are giving up in droves, I had a healer on team speak the other day in a pug literrally burst into tears, she was upset at the abuse she was getting, I could tell that she was doing her best but it obviously wasn't good enough, even with CC on mobs, cooldonws being used, careful DPS she was OOM by the time we got to the 3rd mob in the kill order... and I see this in almost every single heroic I do.

I look at the healer forums and almost want to weep at what I see, I speak to healers on vent/teamspeek and they no longer enjoy playing wow.

And frankly that's what this comes down to...

For the highly skilled, truly awesome players with digital reflexes i'm sure heroics are easy, they could probably do them in greens.

But for people like myself and others, it's like being hit in the face with a brick.

Some of the boss mechanics are just ridiculous.

OK I know i'm going to get flamed, told that I suck, told to quit etc etc...

But I'm deeply concerend at the number of people I know who are quitting or who just don't want to log in anymore and that have allowed the sub to lapse.

But the hubris being displayed by some of the blue posters, the contempt that is being displayed just smacks of pure arrogance.

And frankly, what on earth has become of the wow player base... do you really WANT the millions of people who signed up in WOTLK to quit and canel their accounts.. i'm sure Activision would just love that...

Blizz... please do not make the same mistakes you made in Vanilla and BC, yes take what you learned in WOTLK to make wow a better game for EVERYONE but do not forget your casual, semi-skilled plodders like me, i'm not asking for massive nerfs or 'free epics', what I am saying is that you went too far for stuff that is meant to get people experienced in fight mechanics and pre-raid ready, you are literally hitting your fan-base in the face with a brick, which isn't fun for anyone.

Hubris will bite you... don't treat those who post their concerns here with such contempt... as they say... money talks and bull@*@* walks.

Thankyou for taking time to ready my ramblings, please take this feedback in the spirit in which it was given, from a long term subscriber who is concerned.

Your's Sincerely.

However, hubris is funny.

Let me point out a couple of things. I also play casually. I really do not have the time to raid 3 or 4 nights per week, real life and all that. However, I enjoy myself immensely. I enjoy a challenge. I enjoy rising to the occasion, not having the occasion lowered to me.

In other words, I learned to suck less. I like having to smart my way through a dungeon rather than laying my face on the keyboard and rolling it back and forth.

Quit frankly, the response they are giving to all the whining and wailing and gnashing of teeth is spot on. Quit expecting everything to be handed to you on a silver platter.

I really love this post. It does drag on a bit, but it really hits the nail on the head. Healing is very annoying (not hard) at the moment. Heroics are too overturned. Very slim room for error. With lag, wow errors, keyboard turning, etc type players out there mistakes happen. The problem is one mistake can wiped the group.

I don't know what is wrong with blizzard. Real life is annoying already esp. for us folks that work 9-5 and deal with the current economy bull. I don't want to come home to be annoyed in my dungeon run from simple mistakes. As a healer I can't even make up for others mistakes which is even more annoying.

People in LFD are angry, cussing. and fighting fellow gamers cause blizzard wants to go backwards in game design instead of forwards.

It took 2 minutes to read that, its not too long. It was well thought out and nicely put.

I agree with all she has to say.

Herorics should be challenging but after a couple of wipes to learn it you should be able to nail the encounter. Not have these fights where one mistake, one missed interupt, 3 seconds too long standing in a puddle etc. wipes the groups. That isn't challenging when you're in a pug, its a nightmare.

This is why you either get into or form a guild. Run with folks you know.

Healers are giving up in droves, I had a healer on team speak the other day in a pug literrally burst into tears, she was upset at the abuse she was getting, I could tell that she was doing her best but it obviously wasn't good enough, even with CC on mobs, cooldonws being used, careful DPS she was OOM by the time we got to the 3rd mob in the kill order... and I see this in almost every single heroic I do.

One of three things at play.

1: She's undergeared for heroics. if she's not a really solid healer, 329 is pretty borderline.

2: She hasn't gotten used to the new healing mechanics for her class

3: She doesn't have native spirit on as many pieces of gear as she can, and reforged spirit on the rest.

Heroics are mostly okay, but people need to relearn their class. This is true of everyone, but especially healers. The barrier for healers and tanks is pretty low, in terms of gear. A healer can get 340ish ailvl in a very short period of time if that's what they want. If pugging, don't be afraid to cut the group lose and move on if no progress is being made.

if it's an organized group with cc and she's running out of mana, she's probably either not performing to her best (in regards to new mechanics) or has insufficient spirit.

I really like the OP. Sadly, many of the "elite" 13 year old players are the ones responding in this thread. We'll find out next month if WoW takes a hit in subscribers. If it does, I expect some hotfixes coming out pretty quick to fix the game.

Be patient, if need be, take a break. Things will get easier as new content/tiers arrive. If they made things easier now, they'd be trivialized very quickly. In a year heroics will be trivial anyways, but for now many people are enjoying the challenge.

Have you and your guild farmed everything you can from normals yet? If you haven't, I feel like you're setting the bar too high for yourself. Is it unreasonable for Blizzard to expect people to have farmed the previous content for a bit before jumping to the next level? In my mind it's not, yet I see people squeeking in with 329 level gear all the time, often with pvp gear. The problem is people are used to not running normals period, as was the case in wotlk.

On that note, Blizzard needs a better way of calculating gearscore for heroic reqs. As far as reqs go it sets me at 348, even though I'm actually at 344, but since some of my off spec slots are higher gs than my main spec, it artificially bumps my gs.

Cataclysm Heroics are harder then Wrath Heroics, but are still easier then Burning Crusade Heroics, by a long shot, and even easier then the original lvl 60 5 mans.

This.

In BC heroics, DPS pulling aggro was a swift one shot, and the bosses we much more difficult. Level 60 pre-nerf scholomance was also harder than these heroics and could take 4 hours to clear if you did Jandice, the Bat Man, and the school room.

I really like the OP. Sadly, many of the "elite" 13 year old players are the ones responding in this thread. We'll find out next month if WoW takes a hit in subscribers. If it does, I expect some hotfixes coming out pretty quick to fix the game.

Subscription numbers had nowhere to go but up. They were mostly stagnant throughout all of Wrath with only a small jump in numbers coming from the Chinese market reopening and getting Wrath back about a month before the "12 million subscribers" press release. If they kept with the uninnovative and challengeless drek that was the Wrath dungeon and raid experience then Cataclysm would have been a huge flop for Blizzard.

Add me to those who are weighing up the 'stay or go' decision with World of WarCraft.

I really love this hobby, I love my guild and enjoy the company of my guildmates.

Let me start by saying that yes i'm a casual, I admit I'm not the guy you'd want tanking your hard mode 25 man world first raids, I sometimes stand in bad stuff.

For me, Vanilla wow was a bitter sweet thing, sweet on one hand in that it was quite a fun hobby, bitter in that due to not really being into the whole 40 man molten core routine, or even in a 40 man raiding guild, I had to accept that an awful lot of game content would never be seen by me or those of my ilk, but we kept plodding on, doing BG's, questing, levelling alts and generally being the invisible 'filler' to the MMO scene.

Burning crusade was a step in the right direction, better questing than vanilla, some interesting encounters, plenty of instances, more BG's, and TWO (yes TWO) ten man raids!! For my little guild it was a godsend, yes we spend months enjoying Karazhan, sure we probably wiped on stuff the hardcore players would do with 2 players in greens with one of them offline but dammit, we enjoyed, for us it was hard but we got there in the end ;-)

Then.. WOTLK... for me and many, many other wow players of similiar ilk to myself and our guildies WOTLK was a wonderful experience, full line-up of 10 man raid content, plenty of instances, some fun achieves to work towards and the knowledge that if we tried hard, stuck with it, we would be able to one day perhaps get a shot at the Lich King himself.

Sure, we never did hard mode Ulduar, never killed Algalon, probably wiped way too many times on Sindragosa, and yes.. by close of WOTLK 'heroics' were fairly easy and farmable.

Then along comes Cataclysm....

To me WoW once again is begining to taste bitter / sweet, we've lost all but one of our healers, i'm the last tank standing, we're going to rebuild, we're working on heroics, but...I think you guy at Blizz missed the mark with heroics and i'll come right out and say it, you have tuned them too tightly.

A real sense of arrogance is comming from the blue posters and frankly I find it dissapointing.

I know what you were trying to achieve, you wanted Heroics to be more formidable, that's ok...I know that there are varying levels of skill, I know that there are players way better than me and my friends both in and external to our guild, I know that.

I don't expect heroics to be a face-roll, and frankly for me they weren't a faceroll in Cata, but I think you've set the bar too high for people who are still trying to gear up.

Healers are giving up in droves, I had a healer on team speak the other day in a pug literrally burst into tears, she was upset at the abuse she was getting, I could tell that she was doing her best but it obviously wasn't good enough, even with CC on mobs, cooldonws being used, careful DPS she was OOM by the time we got to the 3rd mob in the kill order... and I see this in almost every single heroic I do.

I look at the healer forums and almost want to weep at what I see, I speak to healers on vent/teamspeek and they no longer enjoy playing wow.

And frankly that's what this comes down to...

For the highly skilled, truly awesome players with digital reflexes i'm sure heroics are easy, they could probably do them in greens.

But for people like myself and others, it's like being hit in the face with a brick.

Some of the boss mechanics are just ridiculous.

OK I know i'm going to get flamed, told that I suck, told to quit etc etc...

But I'm deeply concerend at the number of people I know who are quitting or who just don't want to log in anymore and that have allowed the sub to lapse.

But the hubris being displayed by some of the blue posters, the contempt that is being displayed just smacks of pure arrogance.

And frankly, what on earth has become of the wow player base... do you really WANT the millions of people who signed up in WOTLK to quit and canel their accounts.. i'm sure Activision would just love that...

Blizz... please do not make the same mistakes you made in Vanilla and BC, yes take what you learned in WOTLK to make wow a better game for EVERYONE but do not forget your casual, semi-skilled plodders like me, i'm not asking for massive nerfs or 'free epics', what I am saying is that you went too far for stuff that is meant to get people experienced in fight mechanics and pre-raid ready, you are literally hitting your fan-base in the face with a brick, which isn't fun for anyone.

Hubris will bite you... don't treat those who post their concerns here with such contempt... as they say... money talks and bull@*@* walks.

Thankyou for taking time to ready my ramblings, please take this feedback in the spirit in which it was given, from a long term subscriber who is concerned.

Your's Sincerely.

Excellent post and honestly sums up my feelings about Cata rather well.When I first got into heroics I wiped, learned mechanics and had fun. Now - well, I've been in them for over a week. I am well tired of them. Trash is obnoxious, bosses are too fiddly. Challenge is fine - I love to be challenged in a game.

But this is honestly just too much - even as a longtime raider, in guild groups some of the instances (Stonecore, HSFK) feel as dependant on latency and group comp as skill.Others (Hoo, VC) are just too damned long. I honestly feel sorry for people without a guild - I don't think I would stick around if I was in that position.

I am still having fun - but the shine is wearing off. I won't be cancelling my account. But I do think that a few tweaks to the heroics (less trash, tweaks to a few bosses) would let me enjoy things a little more.

I see this post... I've read almost all of it... people really should be ashamed. If you're trolling in this thread, or any one like it, you're really not helping the situation.

What the OP mentioned is that she/he is NOT a hardcore player, not even close. That the heroic mechanics are geared towards Heroic Lich King killers, not to mention the previous 'hardcore' MC/AQ raiders from vanilla. They've offered their concerns and had nothing but trolls tell them they are wrong, they are bad, get better or quit.

I offer you this advise, first, not everyone reads thier patch notes. Out of 13 million players, I'm sure that there is a large percentage that don't want to be the best at thier class. There are casual players and there are hardcore players, all they've asked for is some middle ground, which is where heroics used to fit. Not good enough to raid? Run heroics, get better gear, try again. With Cata, heroics have been mini raids with little or no reward. 70 valor points, once a day (if you can keep your healer and tank happy), and a chance at dropping something useful from the bosses, whose mechanics make them almost devistatingly hard. Also, for a casual player, you spend upwards of an hour in a dungeon, which if you have kids/work you don't always have time to do. Your advise? 'Wait until they nerf it, or you can be carried through in 20 minutes' yay... =\

I agree with the healing side of things, I come from a 25 man raid guild with 25 LK kill, Frostbrood drakes etc. and we have to date 5 healers remaining. Healers are quitting left, right and center, either switching to DPS or using an alt as DPS/tank. This isn't a good thing.

In wrath it was similar, but not on this scale. Yes, wrath made people lazy, and forget basic mechanics, AoE was king, yadda yadda. However, going from one extreme to the other isn't a way to solve a problem.

Off but On Topic:To those of you who say that 'every class has an interupt, CC, or is useful to the group' I ask you these 2 simple questions, when did silences/stuns start working on bosses? and since 4.0 when they tried balancing the trees so each player could play whichever spec they wanted and still maintain thier viability in a group, should certain classes have to be a certain spec to maintain that? Case in point: Shadow Priests, Moonkins, Hunters.

The only level that makes all mechanics managable by all groups is if every class of every spec, has a crowd control, and an interupt. Which makes the game far to easy, or less challenging, either way, I personally think they have geared them slightly too high.

I'd prefer if it was more of a.. oops, didn't interupt that spell, that almost killed me, won't make that mistake again... rather than the, you messed up, YOU LOSE!!! scenario that we currently have.