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Shadow,

Some of what you say is true, but most of it is subjective and is open to opinion. Whether the NGE is better than the Pre-CU or the other way arround is opinion, not fact. A bigger playerbase does not make the Pre-CU game a better game than NGE, because one mans trash is anothers treasure. So saying a particular version of a game is better is just opinion. So it is not stirring up trouble to post as such in the Refuge section if they are Vets themselves. It is okay to have a differing opinion without it being an attack and that is what Stradden is trying to get across to you. Keep also in mind that subscription numbers to all MMORPG's but WoW drop and keep dropping over a period of years, so even if Pre-CU stayed around, people would have quit anyways out of boredom and many people has stated as much in the General Discussion forum over the past year. No I admit, most MMO's tend to level off at some point which SWG didn't do. I don't deny the fact that the NGE is a bad business move, because it was and it cost SOE tons of money. But the NGE still may be better to those that play the game. Let people have their own opinion without attacking them, that is all Stradden is trying to say. Sometimes people who think they are right and justified need to swallow their pride and just let people think or feel what they want.

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Originally posted by Stradden

Ok, I will attempt to clarify things once again.

First of all, the rules are the rules and will be enforced to the best of our abilities to all concerned. I don't care if it's pro-NGE players bashing Anti- or the other way around. Rule breaking is rule breaking. Do things sometimes slip through the cracks? Yes. On both sides. We're not perfect, and I have never implied that we were.

The truth of the matter is that more often than not, it is this forum that causes a great number of issues. That's why I placed this sticky here.

Personal attacks WILL NOT be tolerated. It's as simple as that. If you feel that you can not express your feelings without attacking someone personally, then you will likley be warned, and have your posts deleted. I didn't split these forums to make a "happy place" and an "angry place".

Having a differing opinion doesn't necessarily make a rule violation. It's when the conversation becomes less than civil that rules are broken. Just because someone likes or dislikes something that you feel the opposite way about, however valid the reasons, doesn't give carte blanche to flame, or name-call.

I have said it before, and I will say it again. Everyone has the right to express their opinions here, as long as they follow the rules. I will defend your rights to be angry just as much as I will the rights of those who still play the game. All that I ask is that both sides remain civil. Currently, that's not happening.

Cheers

Jon "Stradden" Wood

I understand what you are saying, I think that people confuse statements of opinion with flames though.

No matter how they are written. I know that broad statements of opinion can and HAVE been seen as flames to some people, I should know -- I find out in our grapevine that people have reported me for it..

I actually like being reported at times, that tells me I am doing somthing right in the means of making someone get mad enough to actually do somthing... now if I can just get them to go post on the SOE boards just how bad this product is that is at least one more good thing for that person to quit accepting a sub-par product and demanding a good one.

Like in the big pants world the phrase is "If your not being sued by someone your doing somthing wrong"..lol

I do think that in ways, people hate facing some facts... I myself hate facing the fact the game is over, done and worthless. I'd like to see the real game come back one day... however I do know that is just not going to happen.

I have had countless dialog with some people at SOE, other places and I have realized the only thing left to do is warn anyone that is left, or that is currently playing to wake up and smell the coffee on this product.

Until then I will post here out of passion and frustration. Mr. Smedley himself knows I post here... he knows I have be-rated this product and he has not even argued one time since the "mistake" and "failue" has been made.

In case anyone has noticed, this is one if not THE most under promoted LEC product there is. ALSO SOE is not out there slamming this at E3 or filling 30 second spots on TV right now on major networks.

Right now this is known as one big mistake and embarassment, let alone failure in the public eye.

I think that our posts from the HUNDREDS of thousands of people that quit told them this. Like I said before it does take any type of smart gamer or stupid one to figure out how bad this game is.

It may relay into a "insult" but that is just the plain and simple truth that the game is a wreck.

______________________________I usually picture the Career builder commercial with the room full of monkeys and upside down sales chart when thinking about the SOE/SWG decision making process..... SOE's John Blakely and Todd Fiala issued a warning: "Don't make our mistakes." Ref NGEWinner of the worst MMOS goes to.... the NGE and SWG..!!! http://www.mmorpg.com/showFeature.cfm?loadFeature=1034&bhcp=1

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Originally posted by nthnaoun

Shadow,

Some of what you say is true, but most of it is subjective and is open to opinion. Whether the NGE is better than the Pre-CU or the other way arround is opinion, not fact. A bigger playerbase does not make the Pre-CU game a better game than NGE, because one mans trash is anothers treasure. So saying a particular version of a game is better is just opinion. So it is not stirring up trouble to post as such in the Refuge section if they are Vets themselves. It is okay to have a differing opinion without it being an attack and that is what Stradden is trying to get across to you. Keep also in mind that subscription numbers to all MMORPG's but WoW drop and keep dropping over a period of years, so even if Pre-CU stayed around, people would have quit anyways out of boredom and many people has stated as much in the General Discussion forum over the past year. No I admit, most MMO's tend to level off at some point which SWG didn't do. I don't deny the fact that the NGE is a bad business move, because it was and it cost SOE tons of money. But the NGE still may be better to those that play the game. Let people have their own opinion without attacking them, that is all Stradden is trying to say. Sometimes people who think they are right and justified need to swallow their pride and just let people think or feel what they want.

YOU and others may WISH it to be an opinion, but it is NOT.

The FACT is, that IF the NGE was worth playing then there would NOT have been a loss of some 75 percent (or more) of the playerbase.

If you can't handle the TRUTH or want to legitimize the NGE then you need to go back to the "Current" forum. I am NOT debating whether someone has the right to like the NGE. I am debating ... NO ... I am stating a fact that the NGE is garbage and will always be garbage. The size or lack of size of the playerbase in this instance proves I am right. I am sorry for being direct but I am tired of this BS.

Whether or not the NGE is, was, or ever has been successful is NOT debatable. It CLEARLY has NOT been ... ever.

Whether or not the playerbase is as large as preNGE is not debatable. It is SIGNIFICANTLY smaller.

Whether or not the NGE is an enjoyable game (AS A WHOLE) is not debatable. It is not enjoyable to the OVERwhelming majority of people that have played it.

Whether or not someone does like or has the right to LIKE the NGE is not the subject here. I would agree with you about the NGE being an "opinion" IF the playerbase level remained the same or especially if the numbers increased even slightly.

If someone said something like, "I like SWG and the NGE because it is still Star Wars." it would be a statement I can accept wholeheartedly. This is an opinion and it is cool. But do NOT try to pass off the NGE as something that it isn't. That will just stir up trouble and should be considered flame bait. Thus a violation of the RoC.

Your statement is directed one way. It is about time it went both ways. After all this is the "Refugee" forum.

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Originally posted by ShadowLords

Originally posted by nthnaoun

Shadow,

Some of what you say is true, but most of it is subjective and is open to opinion. Whether the NGE is better than the Pre-CU or the other way arround is opinion, not fact. A bigger playerbase does not make the Pre-CU game a better game than NGE, because one mans trash is anothers treasure. So saying a particular version of a game is better is just opinion. So it is not stirring up trouble to post as such in the Refuge section if they are Vets themselves. It is okay to have a differing opinion without it being an attack and that is what Stradden is trying to get across to you. Keep also in mind that subscription numbers to all MMORPG's but WoW drop and keep dropping over a period of years, so even if Pre-CU stayed around, people would have quit anyways out of boredom and many people has stated as much in the General Discussion forum over the past year. No I admit, most MMO's tend to level off at some point which SWG didn't do. I don't deny the fact that the NGE is a bad business move, because it was and it cost SOE tons of money. But the NGE still may be better to those that play the game. Let people have their own opinion without attacking them, that is all Stradden is trying to say. Sometimes people who think they are right and justified need to swallow their pride and just let people think or feel what they want.

YOU and others may WISH it to be an opinion, but it is NOT.

The FACT is, that IF the NGE was worth playing then there would NOT have been a loss of some 75 percent (or more) of the playerbase.

If you can't handle the TRUTH or want to legitimize the NGE then you need to go back to the "Current" forum. I am NOT debating whether someone has the right to like the NGE. I am debating ... NO ... I am stating a fact that the NGE is garbage and will always be garbage. The size or lack of size of the playerbase in this instance proves I am right. I am sorry for being direct but I am tired of this BS.

Whether or not the NGE is, was, or ever has been successful is NOT debateable. It CLEARLY has NOT been ... ever.

Whether or not the playerbase is as large as preNGE is not debatable.

Whether or not the NGE is an enjoyable game is not debatable. It is not to the OVERwhelming majority.

Whether or not someone does like or has the right to LIKE the NGE is not the subject here. I would agree with you about it being an "opinion" IF the playerbase level remained the same or especially if the numbers increased even slightly.

If someone said something like, "I like SWG and the NGE because it is still Star Wars." it would be a statement I can accept wholeheartedly. This is an opinion and it is cool. But do NOT try to pass off the NGE as something that it isn't. That will just stir up trouble and should be considered flame bait.

Your statement is directed one way. It is about time it went both ways. After all this is the "Refugee" forum.

See and thats just it.... it's not a opinon that the NGE is a failure and a mistake.

Be very clear here about the way you said this.

It is a stated by the company as such. The president has stated this product as such.

Now then , sure by all means someone could say that the NGE is the only way they could be a Jedi or be successful, which I do think is true for alot of the NGE playerbase... THAT STILL DOES NOT MAKE IT A SUCCESS.

Success can be based on profit, quality, society and it's reference to the "said" product.

So based on FACT not opinion this games version right now is a failure. By sub counts, by reviews, by all means when the freaking president sends you a email and makes ANY kind of excuse about the product and calls it a mistake you have to take it as such.

i.e. let's think about the product itself... it's sales, it's fortune and it's profitablity. Which at this point, they are changing the name one last time to try to get some people of a different sort in it.

IT is a fact the NGE is a failure, not a matter of opinion at this point.

If it was a success, trust me you would hear about it.. you can bet on that.

AGAIN: Yes, I am sure there is some people in the NGE that think it's great... but there was also people that thought the "PINTO" was a safe car... since they never had a crash in one or were hit in the rear end. ...needless to say we know the real result and truth of the matter.

______________________________I usually picture the Career builder commercial with the room full of monkeys and upside down sales chart when thinking about the SOE/SWG decision making process..... SOE's John Blakely and Todd Fiala issued a warning: "Don't make our mistakes." Ref NGEWinner of the worst MMOS goes to.... the NGE and SWG..!!! http://www.mmorpg.com/showFeature.cfm?loadFeature=1034&bhcp=1

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Look, we who enjoy the classic, launch game have no desire, nor any inclination to visit the Current Gameplay forum, because we know we don't belong there.

However, there are some who enjoy the new game who are not content talking about the new game on the forum for the new game. They must come here, and disrupt the sanctity of our community, to argue with us at will, with no thoughts of peaceful discourse, or the disruption their presence in a Veteran's Refuge thread causes.

This is exactly the problem, whether mmorpg.com wants to admit it or not.

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Greetings.

Generally iI would consider myself a luker, watcher, etc. I come to the Refuge Section to see what is going on. to see what new and "interesting" ideas are being pushed about on a great manay subjects related to SWG, yes, especially the OLD game.

To be honest, i think there is a few problems with the small section of a pretty vast site that covers alot of groud.

A. the whole description of this area Mr. Wood jsut screams flame wars. "A place for disgruntled former and current SWG players to talk about the game that was and the game that now is, as well as for newcomers who are curious about the issues surrounding the changes that this game has undergone.:

you call this a place for the disgruntled former players and current one to talk about both the game past and the new version.

In my OPINION (see not a fact), this is begging for it. oil and water if you will.

B. It is clear that some people enjoy the new version and feel that they must bounce in to here (hey you invited them too remember) to defend the game. Some of them are blantantly annying (pirg), others frankly try to sound reasonable but really cloak themselves, or try to convice others that history of the game is not what it is.

C. It is equally as clear that there are still to this day PLENTY of hurt feelings and broken ingame (only there i hope) dreams that were affected radically by NGE.

D. It is equally clear that the consumer of games liek this have enough anger (hate? memory?) of what has happen to this one game that when the mear mention of SoE in partnership with any other company (Vangard), or even a hint of it (STO) that seriously deep emotions come into play. Emotions and passion are some of the greatest motivators in human history and right now in this gaming indusrty there is alot of negative ones erupting when NGE and or SoE are brought up.

E. For good or evil when a staff memeber states his opinion all the disclaimers in the world are NOT going to stop the fact that a member of this staff, posted to THIS section what they felt about the audience in here. When a staff member voices thier opinion it should and MUST be in private. Staff members by thier very association should never voice an opinion that can be seen as a negative to your customer base. If one of my Customer Support techs said that product a or group b use was bad or "moaners" I would have to fire them on the spot as they were representing the company, on the compnaies dime, using the companies resources to negatively represent something. I know my bosses want our custoimer to come to us and leave with an enjoyable experience when dealign with the staff, I hope your staff understands this concept (and yes I bet they all do!)

To the gentleman that was saying calliing NGE a failure was an opinion, i would agree with you save for the fact that as cited above and other places, SoE has stated that it was/is a failure on many levels, "neutral" reviews of NGE are less than stellar. You may enjoy the game and that is great, heck I still play and love Anarchy Online.

okay enough, sorry to ramble.

Honestly Jon I come to your forums to find news and things about games. It is a darn good resource, but this section is a battle ground partily from yoru own doing sir.

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Bah I think Jon is doing fine and the best he can with all of this mess and that is all you can ask for.

Bottom line most of us old Vets have a place to hang and wish, complain, rant and bitch about what we liked, loved and wished we had back.

At times we have to see some utter bullshit sure, but still we deal with it.

Like I said before, you do not need to be a Monkey to figure out just how bad the product is now.

SOE will even tell you more or less but you just have to see it.

______________________________I usually picture the Career builder commercial with the room full of monkeys and upside down sales chart when thinking about the SOE/SWG decision making process..... SOE's John Blakely and Todd Fiala issued a warning: "Don't make our mistakes." Ref NGEWinner of the worst MMOS goes to.... the NGE and SWG..!!! http://www.mmorpg.com/showFeature.cfm?loadFeature=1034&bhcp=1

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Bah I think Jon is doing fine and the best he can with all of this mess and that is all you can ask for.

Bottom line most of us old Vets have a place to hang and wish, complain, rant and bitch about what we liked, loved and wished we had back.

At times we have to see some utter bullshit sure, but still we deal with it.

Like I said before, you do not need to be a Monkey to figure out just how bad the product is now.

SOE will even tell you more or less but you just have to see it.

I don't think it is MMORPG.com's fault either. Least for the most part (90% of the problem belongs to the people doing the flaming). It isn't a pleasent situation to try and manage.

Unfortunately there is a saying "The squeaky wheel gets the grease." But that doesn't mean those people are in the right. I think the fanbois have probably complained the loudest, thus Mr. Woods one sided post.

I think a few of the Vets/antiNGErs in THIS forum have now reacted. More people need to step up to the plate to show we speak with one voice. The antiNGErs also need to start policing their own. We can start by giving the proNGErs their space and stay out of their forum, ESPECIALLY if you can't be reasonably civil.

I think the staff at MMORPG.com know all too well what has been going on with SWG. I want to believe that they have split the forums to try to accomodate both sides. So both sides can be heard with out everyone getting into a flame war.

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This entire post seems one sided. You must be saying that anti-NGE people have to take the flaming, beratement, and personal attacks from the proNGE people.

It seems pretty silly that you have to post something like this in the "Refugee" forum regarding the treatment of proNGE people. Maybe the problem isn't the antiNGE'rs or the former SWG players. Maybe just maybe the problem is with some of the proNGErs posting in the "Refugee" forum because they don't like what they are reading ... even if it is the truth.

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This entire post seems one sided. You must be saying that anti-NGE people have to take the flaming, beratement, and personal attacks from the proNGE people.

It seems pretty silly that you have to post something like this in the "Refugee" forum regarding the treatment of proNGE people. Maybe the problem isn't the antiNGE'rs or the former SWG players. Maybe just maybe the problem is with some of the proNGErs posting in the "Refugee" forum because they don't like what they are reading ... even if it is the truth.

Your opinion is idiotic.

As if I CARE what you think?

Obviousely unable to formulate anything more than a 4 word, one sentence reponse. And unable to explain why.

Nope he isn't even a regular here! Just someone that likes to pop into a threads to give someone grief. LOLOL

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Originally posted by ShadowLords

Originally posted by nthnaoun

Shadow,

Some of what you say is true, but most of it is subjective and is open to opinion. Whether the NGE is better than the Pre-CU or the other way arround is opinion, not fact. A bigger playerbase does not make the Pre-CU game a better game than NGE, because one mans trash is anothers treasure. So saying a particular version of a game is better is just opinion. So it is not stirring up trouble to post as such in the Refuge section if they are Vets themselves. It is okay to have a differing opinion without it being an attack and that is what Stradden is trying to get across to you. Keep also in mind that subscription numbers to all MMORPG's but WoW drop and keep dropping over a period of years, so even if Pre-CU stayed around, people would have quit anyways out of boredom and many people has stated as much in the General Discussion forum over the past year. No I admit, most MMO's tend to level off at some point which SWG didn't do. I don't deny the fact that the NGE is a bad business move, because it was and it cost SOE tons of money. But the NGE still may be better to those that play the game. Let people have their own opinion without attacking them, that is all Stradden is trying to say. Sometimes people who think they are right and justified need to swallow their pride and just let people think or feel what they want.

YOU and others may WISH it to be an opinion, but it is NOT.

The FACT is, that IF the NGE was worth playing then there would NOT have been a loss of some 75 percent (or more) of the playerbase.

If you can't handle the TRUTH or want to legitimize the NGE then you need to go back to the "Current" forum. I am NOT debating whether someone has the right to like the NGE. I am debating ... NO ... I am stating a fact that the NGE is garbage and will always be garbage. The size or lack of size of the playerbase in this instance proves I am right. I am sorry for being direct but I am tired of this BS.

Whether or not the NGE is, was, or ever has been successful is NOT debatable. It CLEARLY has NOT been ... ever.

Whether or not the playerbase is as large as preNGE is not debatable. It is SIGNIFICANTLY smaller.

Whether or not the NGE is an enjoyable game (AS A WHOLE) is not debatable. It is not enjoyable to the OVERwhelming majority of people that have played it.

Whether or not someone does like or has the right to LIKE the NGE is not the subject here. I would agree with you about the NGE being an "opinion" IF the playerbase level remained the same or especially if the numbers increased even slightly.

If someone said something like, "I like SWG and the NGE because it is still Star Wars." it would be a statement I can accept wholeheartedly. This is an opinion and it is cool. But do NOT try to pass off the NGE as something that it isn't. That will just stir up trouble and should be considered flame bait. Thus a violation of the RoC.

Your statement is directed one way. It is about time it went both ways. After all this is the "Refugee" forum.

And why is it that you are jumping down my throat? I don't even play the stupid game anymore. I am using text book definitions here and you are arguing with emotion. Text book opinion doesn't state that an equal amount of people should like the NGE as the Pre-CU for it to be an opinion. A game being good is subjective to individual opinion. A game being successful is not. The NGE is not successful and that is Fact! But it is also fact that people like the Pre-CU, just like it is fact that people like the NGE. This shows you that this is an argument of opinion which is dumb. Arguing over opinion is silly, because people can have their own opinion.

I know you are mad and angry, but directing your hate towards me is wrong. I am a refugee also, but I am educated and know the difference between opinion and fact. If you want to argue facts then fine. Argue that it is a fact that the majority of the SWG playerbase liked the Pre-CU better or argue the fact that the NGE is a failure, but don't try to state what is opinion as fact, such as a game being good to an individual person or not. Let a person decide if a game is good to them for themselves.

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Originally posted by nthnaoun

And why is it that you are jumping down my throat? I don't even play the stupid game anymore. I am using text book definitions here and you are arguing with emotion. Text book opinion doesn't state that an equal amount of people should like the NGE as the Pre-CU for it to be an opinion. A game being good is subjective to individual opinion. A game being successful is not. The NGE is not successful and that is Fact! But it is also fact that people like the Pre-CU, just like it is fact that people like the NGE. This shows you that this is an argument of opinion which is dumb. Arguing over opinion is silly, because people can have their own opinion.

I know you are mad and angry, but directing your hate towards me is wrong. I am a refugee also, but I am educated and know the difference between opinion and fact. If you want to argue facts then fine. Argue that it is a fact that the majority of the SWG playerbase liked the Pre-CU better or argue the fact that the NGE is a failure, but don't try to state what is opinion as fact, such as a game being good to an individual person or not. Let a person decide if a game is good to them for themselves.

As Beatnik said, this forum is about (and I will copy):

SWG Veteran RefugeA place for disgruntled former and current SWG players to talk about the game that was and the game that now is, as well as for newcomers who are curious about the issues surrounding the changes that this game has undergone. *Note, MMORPG.com RoC will still be enforced

You know sometimes people need to to use a little COMMON SENSE. Obviously the facts surrounding SWG are as plain as day. ANYONE who is reasonable would admit that the NGE is a total failure.

You TRY to make an arguement about opinion. Ok ... let's put numbers to your "opinion". 350,000 played preCU and 340,000 of them what anything preNGE. There is only about 10,000 people left in SWG today. So this means that the current playerbase is only about 3.5 percent of what SWG was in its heyday. Meaning some 96.5 percent of the former playerbase left the game due to the NGE.

Fact. That this overwhelmingly says the NGE is a failure.

Fact. The size of the playerbase is SIGNIFICANTLY smaller.

Fact. The OVERWHELMING majority hate the NGE, $OE, and $LA/$LEC

Fact. The NGE is the WORST incarnation of SWG.

Fact. There are still many bugs in the current game.

What you and people LIKE you don't seem to understand is that when you come into a forum (where we are SUPPOSE to have the freedom of expressing our thoughts and feelings) and start saying stuff that is in a DIRECT contradiction to the OBVIOUS facts, then I submit that those people are trying to start a flame war. Any mature person can see this.

As a mature, objective adult one needs to look at the facts to formulate an opinion. As we do here in the Refugee forum. However, as we all know there is always a percentage of people that will go AGAINST whatever is most popular. In this instance we are talking about the few thousand or so people left playing the NGE out of 350,000.

Q. Do they like the game? A. I would assume so otherwise they would NOT be playing.

Q. Are they allowed to say they like the game? A. Absolutely.

So where is the problem? The problem is that any MATURE and REASONABLE person that still playes SWG SHOULD be able to admit all of the facts listed above. However, the NGE fanbios that post in the REFUGEE forum can't seem to admit that these things are true and carry on like the NGE is the best thing that ever happened to SWG. When they do this In the REFUGEE forum it starts flamewars. Some people call this flamebait ... maybe you heard of this term before?

The place for all the proNGErs to put their posts saying stuff like the NGE is the best incarnation of SWG is in THEIR OWN FORUM. They should be able to say whatever they want there without fear of being flamed. The same goes for us in the Refugee forum. Like I said before, I have no problem with somene that says I still like SWG regardless of its problems because it is still Star Wars. But to pass something off that is an obvious lie is PURE flamebait and should not be tolerated.

One other example of a proNGEr NOT being able to admit the truth was when Obriak and I got into it recently about Smugglers. I stated the Smugglers still can not smuggle, Obriak said they can, then I copied 6 links to current topics in the Official Smugglers forum all complaining about Smugglers not being able to smuggle. Obriak never again posted in that thread nor did he ever admit he was wrong. Very sad for a SUPPOSED adult.

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Originally posted by ShadowLords

Originally posted by nthnaoun

And why is it that you are jumping down my throat? I don't even play the stupid game anymore. I am using text book definitions here and you are arguing with emotion. Text book opinion doesn't state that an equal amount of people should like the NGE as the Pre-CU for it to be an opinion. A game being good is subjective to individual opinion. A game being successful is not. The NGE is not successful and that is Fact! But it is also fact that people like the Pre-CU, just like it is fact that people like the NGE. This shows you that this is an argument of opinion which is dumb. Arguing over opinion is silly, because people can have their own opinion.

I know you are mad and angry, but directing your hate towards me is wrong. I am a refugee also, but I am educated and know the difference between opinion and fact. If you want to argue facts then fine. Argue that it is a fact that the majority of the SWG playerbase liked the Pre-CU better or argue the fact that the NGE is a failure, but don't try to state what is opinion as fact, such as a game being good to an individual person or not. Let a person decide if a game is good to them for themselves.

As Beatnik said, this forum is about (and I will copy):

SWG Veteran RefugeA place for disgruntled former and current SWG players to talk about the game that was and the game that now is, as well as for newcomers who are curious about the issues surrounding the changes that this game has undergone. *Note, MMORPG.com RoC will still be enforced

You know sometimes people need to to use a little COMMON SENSE. Obviously the facts surrounding SWG are as plain as day. ANYONE who is reasonable would admit that the NGE is a total failure.

You TRY to make an arguement about opinion. Ok ... let's put numbers to your "opinion". 350,000 played preCU and 340,000 of them what anything preNGE. There is only about 10,000 people left in SWG today. So this means that the current playerbase is only about 3.5 percent of what SWG was in its heyday. Meaning some 96.5 percent of the former playerbase left the game due to the NGE.

Fact. That this overwhelmingly says the NGE is a failure.

Fact. The size of the playerbase is SIGNIFICANTLY smaller.

Fact. The OVERWHELMING majority hate the NGE, $OE, and $LA/$LEC

Fact. The NGE is the WORST incarnation of SWG.

Fact. There are still many bugs in the current game.

What you and people LIKE you don't seem to understand is that when you come into a forum (where we are SUPPOSE to have the freedom of expressing our thoughts and feelings) and start saying stuff that is in a DIRECT contradiction to the OBVIOUS facts, then I submit that those people are trying to start a flame war. Any mature person can see this.

As a mature, objective adult one needs to look at the facts to formulate an opinion. As we do here in the Refugee forum. However, as we all know there is always a percentage of people that will go AGAINST whatever is most popular. In this instance we are talking about the few thousand or so people left playing the NGE out of 350,000.

Q. Do they like the game? A. I would assume so otherwise they would NOT be playing.

Q. Are they allowed to say they like the game? A. Absolutely.

So where is the problem? The problem is that any MATURE and REASONABLE person that still playes SWG SHOULD be able to admit all of the facts listed above. However, the NGE fanbios that post in the REFUGEE forum can't seem to admit that these things are true and carry on like the NGE is the best thing that ever happened to SWG. When they do this In the REFUGEE forum it starts flamewars. Some people call this flamebait ... maybe you heard of this term before?

The place for all the proNGErs to put their posts saying stuff like the NGE is the best incarnation of SWG is in THEIR OWN FORUM. They should be able to say whatever they want there without fear of being flamed. The same goes for us in the Refugee forum. Like I said before, I have no problem with somene that says I still like SWG regardless of its problems because it is still Star Wars. But to pass something off that is an obvious lie is PURE flamebait and should not be tolerated.

One other example of a proNGEr NOT being able to admit the truth was when Obriak and I got into it recently about Smugglers. I stated the Smugglers still can not smuggle, Obriak said they can, then I copied 6 links to current topics in the Official Smugglers forum all complaining about Smugglers not being able to smuggle. Obriak never again posted in that thread nor did he ever admit he was wrong. Very sad for a SUPPOSED adult.

And carrying a rude tone throughout this post and being condesending and then gloating over a post with Obraik is adult like?

Obraik has always acted like an adult and puts up with the abuse on this forum rather well. I agree with all those facts, but it is opinion to state that a game is better then than now. Sure the overwhelming majority thinks that Pre-CU is better, but it is obvious that some people do not agree or SWG wouldn't have any subscribers left. The interesting thing about facts is that any reasonable person cannot deny them, because they have been proven as facts. But a gamer version being better to an INDIVIDUAL person is opinion, because only the INDIVIDUAL can be the judge of that. Now if the question was, "Is it a fact that the majority of SWG players, past and present think that the Pre-CU version is the better SWG," then I would have to say, "yes, it is a fact."

I broke it down as far as I could there. If you don't get it now, then you never will and you are just one of those people that cannot reason correctly.

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Originally posted by nthnaoun

Originally posted by ShadowLords

Originally posted by nthnaoun

And why is it that you are jumping down my throat? I don't even play the stupid game anymore. I am using text book definitions here and you are arguing with emotion. Text book opinion doesn't state that an equal amount of people should like the NGE as the Pre-CU for it to be an opinion. A game being good is subjective to individual opinion. A game being successful is not. The NGE is not successful and that is Fact! But it is also fact that people like the Pre-CU, just like it is fact that people like the NGE. This shows you that this is an argument of opinion which is dumb. Arguing over opinion is silly, because people can have their own opinion.

I know you are mad and angry, but directing your hate towards me is wrong. I am a refugee also, but I am educated and know the difference between opinion and fact. If you want to argue facts then fine. Argue that it is a fact that the majority of the SWG playerbase liked the Pre-CU better or argue the fact that the NGE is a failure, but don't try to state what is opinion as fact, such as a game being good to an individual person or not. Let a person decide if a game is good to them for themselves.

As Beatnik said, this forum is about (and I will copy):

SWG Veteran RefugeA place for disgruntled former and current SWG players to talk about the game that was and the game that now is, as well as for newcomers who are curious about the issues surrounding the changes that this game has undergone. *Note, MMORPG.com RoC will still be enforced

You know sometimes people need to to use a little COMMON SENSE. Obviously the facts surrounding SWG are as plain as day. ANYONE who is reasonable would admit that the NGE is a total failure.

You TRY to make an arguement about opinion. Ok ... let's put numbers to your "opinion". 350,000 played preCU and 340,000 of them what anything preNGE. There is only about 10,000 people left in SWG today. So this means that the current playerbase is only about 3.5 percent of what SWG was in its heyday. Meaning some 96.5 percent of the former playerbase left the game due to the NGE.

Fact. That this overwhelmingly says the NGE is a failure.

Fact. The size of the playerbase is SIGNIFICANTLY smaller.

Fact. The OVERWHELMING majority hate the NGE, $OE, and $LA/$LEC

Fact. The NGE is the WORST incarnation of SWG.

Fact. There are still many bugs in the current game.

What you and people LIKE you don't seem to understand is that when you come into a forum (where we are SUPPOSE to have the freedom of expressing our thoughts and feelings) and start saying stuff that is in a DIRECT contradiction to the OBVIOUS facts, then I submit that those people are trying to start a flame war. Any mature person can see this.

As a mature, objective adult one needs to look at the facts to formulate an opinion. As we do here in the Refugee forum. However, as we all know there is always a percentage of people that will go AGAINST whatever is most popular. In this instance we are talking about the few thousand or so people left playing the NGE out of 350,000.

Q. Do they like the game? A. I would assume so otherwise they would NOT be playing.

Q. Are they allowed to say they like the game? A. Absolutely.

So where is the problem? The problem is that any MATURE and REASONABLE person that still playes SWG SHOULD be able to admit all of the facts listed above. However, the NGE fanbios that post in the REFUGEE forum can't seem to admit that these things are true and carry on like the NGE is the best thing that ever happened to SWG. When they do this In the REFUGEE forum it starts flamewars. Some people call this flamebait ... maybe you heard of this term before?

The place for all the proNGErs to put their posts saying stuff like the NGE is the best incarnation of SWG is in THEIR OWN FORUM. They should be able to say whatever they want there without fear of being flamed. The same goes for us in the Refugee forum. Like I said before, I have no problem with somene that says I still like SWG regardless of its problems because it is still Star Wars. But to pass something off that is an obvious lie is PURE flamebait and should not be tolerated.

One other example of a proNGEr NOT being able to admit the truth was when Obriak and I got into it recently about Smugglers. I stated the Smugglers still can not smuggle, Obriak said they can, then I copied 6 links to current topics in the Official Smugglers forum all complaining about Smugglers not being able to smuggle. Obriak never again posted in that thread nor did he ever admit he was wrong. Very sad for a SUPPOSED adult.

And carrying a rude tone throughout this post and being condesending and then gloating over a post with Obraik is adult like?

Obraik has always acted like an adult and puts up with the abuse on this forum rather well. I agree with all those facts, but it is opinion to state that a game is better then than now. Sure the overwhelming majority thinks that Pre-CU is better, but it is obvious that some people do not agree or SWG wouldn't have any subscribers left. The interesting thing about facts is that any reasonable person cannot deny them, because they have been proven as facts. But a gamer version being better to an INDIVIDUAL person is opinion, because only the INDIVIDUAL can be the judge of that. Now if the question was, "Is it a fact that the majority of SWG players, past and present think that the Pre-CU version is the better SWG," then I would have to say, "yes, it is a fact."

I broke it down as far as I could there. If you don't get it now, then you never will and you are just one of those people that cannot reason correctly.

No ... the problem here is that you just don't get it. You agree with EVERYTHING except that when Obriak or priing spews their BS here in the Refugee forum that it is stirring up trouble. You think Obriak is so wonderful? Show me ONE damn post from any ANTINGEr that says something bad about the NGE or $OE that Obriak agrees with ... show me one ... there has to be one somewhere. Politicians agree on more than Obriak EVER has. You call me gloating? All I did was mention something that occured and now I am gloating? I made a point and a point that you, nor your wonderful Obriak or anyone else can argue against because there isn't any. Excuse the Hell out of me for making a point you can't argue with.

I believe it is you and people like Obriak and others that just can't be reasoned with.

Rude? I am rude? Am I caling you or anyone names? I am stating facts that can be backed up AND that you agree with. What I am doing is presenting a view that you don't like. What we have here is that you don't like what I am saying, so now I am rude. LOL

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Originally posted by ShadowLords

No ... the problem here is that you just don't get it. You agree with EVERYTHING except that when Obriak or priing spews their BS here in the Refugee forum that it is stirring up trouble. You think Obriak is so wonderful? Show me ONE damn post from any ANTINGEr that says anything bad about the NGE or $OE that Obriak agrees with ... show me one ... there has to be one somewhere. Politicians agree on more than Obriak EVER has. You call me gloating? All I did was mention something that occured and now I am gloating? I made a point and a point that you, nor your wonderful Obriak or anyone else can argue against because there isn't any. Excuse the Hell out of me for making a point you can't argue with.

I believe it is you and people like Obriak and others that just can't be reasoned with.

Rude? I am rude? Am I caling you or anyone names? I am stating facts that can be backed up AND that you agree with. What I am doing is presenting a view that you don't like. What we have here is that you don't like what I am saying, so now I am rude. LOL

Let it go man. I respect Obraik just as much as I respect any person who can post without flaming a person, whether they are for or against the NGE. In fact, I can care less who thinks what version of the game is better. I know which version is better and I don't need someone to agree with me to feel good.

I only stand up for those whose opinion is being shut out, because of hate and rage. If it was the Vets whose opinion was being stompled out in these forums, then I would be defending them. Everyone is entitled to their opinon and I like to see it stay that way.

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Originally posted by nthnaoun

Originally posted by ShadowLords

No ... the problem here is that you just don't get it. You agree with EVERYTHING except that when Obriak or priing spews their BS here in the Refugee forum that it is stirring up trouble. You think Obriak is so wonderful? Show me ONE damn post from any ANTINGEr that says anything bad about the NGE or $OE that Obriak agrees with ... show me one ... there has to be one somewhere. Politicians agree on more than Obriak EVER has. You call me gloating? All I did was mention something that occured and now I am gloating? I made a point and a point that you, nor your wonderful Obriak or anyone else can argue against because there isn't any. Excuse the Hell out of me for making a point you can't argue with.

I believe it is you and people like Obriak and others that just can't be reasoned with.

Rude? I am rude? Am I caling you or anyone names? I am stating facts that can be backed up AND that you agree with. What I am doing is presenting a view that you don't like. What we have here is that you don't like what I am saying, so now I am rude. LOL

Let it go man. I respect Obraik just as much as I respect any person who can post without flaming a person, whether they are for or against the NGE. In fact, I can care less who thinks what version of the game is better. I know which version is better and I don't need someone to agree with me to feel good.

I only stand up for those whose opinion is being shut out, because of hate and rage. If it was the Vets whose opinion was being stompled out in these forums, then I would be defending them. Everyone is entitled to their opinon and I like to see it stay that way.

You still just don't get it. You need to back thru and read all the other posts in this thread. Maybe then you can grasp what we are all talking about.

So when proNGErs come into the antiNGE forum on a regular basis and argue on how we are all wrong. That isn't trying to shut us out of our own forum? Need I have to do this again?

A place for disgruntled former and current SWG players to talk about the game that was and the game that now is,as well as for newcomers who are curious about the issues surrounding the changes that this game has undergone. *Note, MMORPG.com RoC will still be enforced.

A place for disgruntled former and current SWG players to talk about the game that was and the game that now is,as well as for newcomers who are curious about the issues surrounding the changes that this game has undergone. *Note, MMORPG.com RoC will still be enforced.

I see the same arguing on the other forum. I'll tell you what, if a mod tells me never to post in this forum again, then I won't. But I am a former SWG player with opinions of my own, so if I want to speak those opinions in the forum I belong in, then I will. Or do you really think that the mods will create another forum to segregate the unbiased veterans from the disgruntled veterans?

A place for disgruntled former and current SWG players to talk about the game that was and the game that now is,as well as for newcomers who are curious about the issues surrounding the changes that this game has undergone. *Note, MMORPG.com RoC will still be enforced.

I see the same arguing on the other forum. I'll tell you what, if a mod tells me never to post in this forum again, then I won't. But I am a former SWG player with opinions of my own, so if I want to speak those opinions in the forum I belong in, then I will. Or do you really think that the mods will create another forum to segregate the unbiased veterans from the disgruntled veterans?

They already are segregated. The key word there is ""disgruntled" former and current players". You see anything in there that says pro NGE or pro $OE? Current players are allowed to be disgruntled too.

This is what is says for the "Current" forum:

SWG CurrentDefined as: A place to talk about the game as it is today, for gamers who currently play or are interested in trying it out. *Note: RoC will be STRICTLY enforced. Absolutely no trolling, flaming or the like will be tolerated.

But somehow you and the Obriaks of this world seem to think you own it all and can FREELY walk all over us Vets that use the Refugee forum.

If MMORPG.com allows you guys to continue to come into the Refugee forum that THEY created and was never asked for, then it would be a shame to see thousands of pissed off posters leaving here and start flaming this site that provides such a good service. It truly would be a sad day for this to happen. The forum was split to STOP the flaming... so why do you proNGErs continue the flamebaiting in the Refugee forum?

A place for disgruntled former and current SWG players to talk about the game that was and the game that now is,as well as for newcomers who are curious about the issues surrounding the changes that this game has undergone. *Note, MMORPG.com RoC will still be enforced.

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How about everybody just quit wasting their energy on hating a umm... VIDEO GAME! and start doing something good for their community.

Instead of everybody tring to scream over everyone and throw around insults why not just take a break this holiday season and actually use your energy in a more positive way. Volunteer your time for the needy, give to poor children, help end animal abuse.. whatever it is. Just give it a break already.. everyone's useless look-at-me-and-my-oh-so-important-opinion post regarding this game are really getting rediculous and stale.

I will not be returning to this forum again so flame (and make dumb jokes) away but just remember to look in your heart this upcoming holiday season to find a way to serve mankind (and animals too ). Later..

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Originally posted by ShadowLords

They already are segregated. The key word there is ""disgruntled" former and current players". You see anything in there that says pro NGE or pro $OE? Current players are allowed to be disgruntled too.

This is what is says for the "Current" forum:

SWG CurrentDefined as: A place to talk about the game as it is today, for gamers who currently play or are interested in trying it out. *Note: RoC will be STRICTLY enforced. Absolutely no trolling, flaming or the like will be tolerated.

But somehow you and the Obriaks of this world seem to think you own it all and can FREELY walk all over us Vets that use the Refugee forum.

If MMORPG.com allows you guys to continue to come into the Refugee forum that THEY created and was never asked for, then it would be a shame to see thousands of pissed off posters leaving here and start flaming this site that provides such a good service. It truly would be a sad day for this to happen. The forum was split to STOP the flaming... so why do you proNGErs continue the flamebaiting in the Refugee forum?

A place for disgruntled former and current SWG players to talk about the game that was and the game that now is,as well as for newcomers who are curious about the issues surrounding the changes that this game has undergone. *Note, MMORPG.com RoC will still be enforced.

So where do I belong then? I don't play the NGE, nor am I interested in playing it and I am a Pre-NGE Vet. Common sense would say that I sure as hell do not belong in the Current playerbase forum. Also, show me in my past few posts where I said I like the NGE? Also, show me where I've posted in the Vet forums, where I was walking all over Vets.

Now quit playing the victim here, because it is pathetic. You should also reread everything I've written in the past 2 days you've been arguing with me. I've never once supported the idea that the NGE is around. Hell, I even agreed that the NGE was a mistake and I even agreed that Pre-CU was better, but all I said is that Obraik and others are entitled to their opinion and that believing that the NGE is better than Pre-CU is an opinion, not a fact. You just keep going off on emotional tangits. You've even resulted in stereotyping me into something I am not, because I disagree with you. You have crossed the line and should reread and rethink what you have said.

Now I am done with this subject. I've already stated what needs to be said and I am through repeating myself. I have a child at home, I do not need to repeat myself to children on the internet too.