Regarding Dance Technique and Etiquette

Thomas G. Mungall, III
June 9, 2006, 4:27 p.m. (Message 45482)

Regarding dance technique and etiquette -- I attend both Scottish Country
dance classes and vintage dance classes and I have been presented with a
problem...what to do when people want to turn using the so called "thumb
hold". I was always taught that this turn is incorrect and in most Scottish
classes people use the correct handshake hold for turns. However in the
vintage classes (which dance a pretty good number of Scottish Country
dances) have what I call an American influence and while not all use the
thumb hold, a good many do. My arguement is it can cause injury. Well that
was what I was always told. My wife says that I should do in Rome as the
Romans. My arguement is that they are wrong and I will dance correctly in
order to avoid injury and I wish to avoid "bad habits" carrying over into
Scottish dancing. I am however at a loss to explain what sorts of injury the
thumb hold can cause. Can someone please throw some light on this practice.
Any suggestions on how to approach this issue as not to cause offense?
Another irritant is the propensity of the vintage class to want to dance the
"Postie's Jig" using the Tulloch turn rather than the usual turns by the
right and left giving the handshake hold.
Thoughts? Suggestions?
Yours aye,
Tom Mungall

Thomas G. Mungall, III wrote:
> ... to turn using the so called "thumb hold".
What can that be?
The Bretons hold on to each other by linking little fingers while they
dance.
That's uncomfortable enough already!
Martin
at the other end of France.

HI Tom,
> This is where when couples are turning, the hands are offered vertically,
> palms to palms and the thumbs linked and elbows pointing down.
Yes, that sounds exactly what I saw from other dancing traditions. If
you're
not doing SCD, you can't expect SCD norms.
Cheers,
Ian Brockbank
Edinburgh, Scotland
xxx@xxxxxxxxxxxxx.xxx
http://www.scottishdance.net/

Thomas G. Mungall, III wrote:
>
> This is where when couples are turning, the hands are offered
> vertically, palms to palms and the thumbs linked and elbows pointing
> down.
The hand position, sounds like what every did on Irish dance (40 years
ago! don't know what they do now), and I always found it convenient and
comfortable. I never encountered any awkwardness concerning the thumbs,
in fact I still can't quite see how thumbs can be linked. It was palm
to palm, each person looking at the back of the other person's hand, and
felt firm and comfortable.
The same grip is commonly used among French traditional dancers, and
although I
insist on handshake hold on country dancing, I still like the
palm-to-palm style in celidh dancing, as it is firm for a
good fast turn than tha handshake hold.
If this were not true, why do (some) SCDers turn their orthodox
handshake into a kind of knot, twisting their wrists in order to get a
firm grip in 2-bar turns?
That is something I am not at all keen on.
Martin

Martin wrote:
< why do (some) SCDers turn their orthodox handshake into a kind
of knot, twisting their wrists in order to get a firm grip in
2-bar turns? That is something I am not at all keen on. >
Actually I was taught to turn that way some 40 years ago (a children's
class with an RSCDS teacher). We used to practice the different
holds by doing slower turns and faster turns so that at any time we
could take either hold, or change from one hold to the other, smoothly
and easily.
It's only recently I've realised that the RSCDS don't seems to advocate
the closer hold any more... When did this change slip in?
Regards,
Jan
Beaconsfield, UK
RSCDS London Branch

Greetings!
Tom Mungall asks:
>Regarding the thumb hold for turning, I am wondering if anyone has
>witnessed or knows of someone who utilized this hold and got their
>thumbs injured?
Yes, and that's the safety problem with it. If the hold is taken properly
there is little risk of the hand slipping and it is perfectly adequate to
hold a partner who has lost his/her footing. The problem comes in taking the
hold, when in order to take it properly when dancing at a reasonable jig or
reel speed, you either have to slap the hands together (inelegant, at best)
or you risk catching your thumb on a finger or the other thumb with a fair
risk of a 'stave' (whatever that is in other versions of English) or, in the
case I refrerred to at the beginning, a broken thumb.
When I was dancing in Scotland outside the RSCDS in my youth, however, it
was probably the third most common hold after linked arms, followed by the
'cleek' as mentioned by Robin Lambie. The 'handshake' hold was only used by
what seemed then to be the overly genteel.
Jim Healy
Perth and Monaco

I think Jim it all comes down to experience - all ways of dancing are safe
for the initiated.
I agree that the thumb hold is safe at slower pace.
I would advocate that all ways of turning are taught, rather than
experienced, and I would argue that most ways are turning are ignored by
dance instructors.
How often do you encounter that 'turning ' is a self taught 'formation'
instead of a movement which has to be deciphered? I would say that
'turning' in many dance styles are a most important point which can 'make' a
dance, rather than a way of getting to a point.
Pia

Gary Lindsey wrote:
> Just think of the grip used in arm wrestling.
I understand now.
Something quite different from the hald hold we used to use.
I did not realize that dancers could turn into wrestlers.
Martin

Martin wrote:
|
| The same grip is commonly used among French traditional dancers, and
| although I
| insist on handshake hold on country dancing, I still like the
| palm-to-palm style in celidh dancing, as it is firm for a
| good fast turn than tha handshake hold.
| If this were not true, why do (some) SCDers turn their orthodox
| handshake into a kind of knot, twisting their wrists in order to get a
| firm grip in 2-bar turns?
| That is something I am not at all keen on.
An explanation I've heard from some SCD teachers, usually along with
a demo, is that the "handshake" hold is the most versatile. If you
have fingers in contact, and your arms straight, you can do a very
slow, wide turn that takes several bars. Or, by moving closer and
wrapping your wrists around the others', you can do a fast, flying
turn. And you can adjust to any speed in between without a change of
grip, just changing how much your arms twine around each other.
Maybe this is why the grip developed. Or maybe the explanation came
after the fact, as people discovered this versatility of a grip that
was originally done for some other reason (or no reason at all).
OTOH, there's something to be said for adopting whatever grip the
rest of the dancers are using.
--
_,
O John Chambers
<:#/> <xx@xxxxxxxx.xxx.xxx>
+ <xxxxxx@xxxxx.xxx>
/#\ in Waltham, Massachusetts, USA, Earth
| |
' `

I would tend to agree with you and not let pass something which is potentially
dangerous. Most of the dancers in my class came to SCD through american
barn-dancing or international folk dancing and they do have a tendency to use the
thumb hold. Most of them quickly get the point when I explain why I do not want
to see that in the SCD class. It may not be of much consequence in sedate,
march-type dances, but in reels or jigs, where there is a risk that someone might
slip while doing a fast turn, it's a different matter. If you take shake-hand
hold and the other person stops supporting their own hand, you find yourself
holding it up by the hand itself, which is fairly solid. Do the same with a thumb
hold and you're left holding their thumb... just imagine what that would give if
they slipped at full speed and you tried to hold them back! The other option
being of course to drop hands if they slip, on the assumption that the fall will
be less damaging than ripping out their thumb, but that wouldn't be very
gentlemanly and my guess is they wouldn't thank you for it!
Maybe a diplomatic way to approach this could be that you wouldn't like to risk
causing THEM an injury - then demonstrate the point as explained above.
Can't comment on the Postie's jig issue, as I've never come across people doing
it with Tulloch turns.
Cheers,
Sophie
Sophie Rickebusch
CH - Wettswil a. A.
On Ven Juin 9 9:27 , 'Thomas G. Mungall, III' sent:
Regarding dance technique and etiquette -- I attend both Scottish Country
dance classes and vintage dance classes and I have been presented with a
problem...what to do when people want to turn using the so called "thumb
hold". I was always taught that this turn is incorrect and in most Scottish
classes people use the correct handshake hold for turns. However in the
vintage classes (which dance a pretty good number of Scottish Country
dances) have what I call an American influence and while not all use the
thumb hold, a good many do. My arguement is it can cause injury. Well that
was what I was always told. My wife says that I should do in Rome as the
Romans. My arguement is that they are wrong and I will dance correctly in
order to avoid injury and I wish to avoid "bad habits" carrying over into
Scottish dancing. I am however at a loss to explain what sorts of injury the
thumb hold can cause. Can someone please throw some light on this practice.
Any suggestions on how to approach this issue as not to cause offense?
Another irritant is the propensity of the vintage class to want to dance the
"Postie's Jig" using the Tulloch turn rather than the usual turns by the
right and left giving the handshake hold.
Thoughts? Suggestions?
Yours aye,
Tom Mungall

Sophie, this is an excellent explanation. I have been doing some more
research since I posted and noted that it is in particularly American Contra
and Australian Bush dance tradition that will utilize the thumb turn while
both English and Scottish Country traditions utilize the hand shake hold. I
think since our vintage class attempts dances from other traditions such as
Scottish, English and French, they should utilize the correct traditions
that originate from those dance styles. I think your point is well taken
regarding the use of a thumb hold in a march type of dance, such as the
"Lancer's Quadrille", as being inconsequential but in reels and jigs it is a
matter of safety.
Tom

Hi Tom,
> Regarding dance technique and etiquette -- I attend both Scottish Country
> dance classes and vintage dance classes and I have been presented with a
> problem...what to do when people want to turn using the so called "thumb
> hold". I was always taught that this turn is incorrect and in most
Scottish
> classes people use the correct handshake hold for turns.
> However in thevintage classes (which dance a pretty good number of
Scottish Country
> dances) have what I call an American influence and while not all use the
> thumb hold, a good many do.
Is the handshake grasp correct in this instance? When you say "vintage"
class,
what does that mean? I have noticed when dancing at the Inter-Varsity Folk
Dance
Festival (of IVFDF to its friends) that dancers from some traditions give
hands
for turns and wheels at about eye level giving an effect like a maypole.
Conversely, the SCD dancers were the only ones to give hands at shoulder
height
in circles - most others had straight arms pointing down with the two arms
of the adjacent dancers making a 'V' shape. Now clearly taken in an SCD
context
both of these are not the expected grasp, but equally clearly it's what they
have been taught in their dance style. I'm afraid I'm inclined to agree
with
your wife here - do what the teacher asks or (if there isn't a teacher)
what's common, and don't assume that SCD convention is correct for another
dance
form.
> Another irritant is the propensity of the vintage class to want to dance
the
> "Postie's Jig" using the Tulloch turn rather than the usual turns by the
> right and left giving the handshake hold.
That's common enough among SCDers around here! Some dancers seem to see it
as a challenge for the number of spins they can do in the available time.
If they're not endangering the set (too much), what does it matter?
> Thoughts? Suggestions?
Relax? We've got enough of an image as boring and stuffy as it is
(certainly
here in Scotland).
Cheers,
Ian Brockbank
Edinburgh, Scotland
xxx@xxxxxxxxxxxxx.xxx
http://www.scottishdance.net/

Ian,
Actually the class does all sorts of dance traditions (American, French,
English, Irish and Scottish) from the late 18th through the 19th Centuries.
In addition to regularly scheduled period style balls, the group also
performs at area antebellum homes, living history events and nursing homes.
The actual dance in question was a Scottish Country Dance. Indeed, I have
also witnessed different dance traditions where hands are given at different
heights. I believe the English tradition of the early 19th Century was to
use a low hand hold. My main concern was the safety issue.
I do get your point about the teacher and the traditions of the group, etc.
which is a very valid point. That was why I was wondering how to discuss the
safety issue with them.
I find it interesting that the Tulloch turn variation in Posties is common
with SCDers in Scotland!
Cheers aye!
Tom

Why not hold a 'turning survival class' - where various styles and
techniques in turns are taught and also how best to survive them.
This way styles, techniques and safety can be incorporated for all kinds of
dances and everyone will have become a little more wise.
Pia

Well, I have seen people get a slight sprain on occasion
when one slips on a polished floor. No matter how ready one is for
such an event the very act of slipping causes the grip to tense up.
I have also seen a thumb dfislocated in the worst case.
To mitigate all this, though, it all took place long ago when
the speed of the music was half as fast again then what is common
today. The dislocation was caused when dancing on an ex-lawn
which had overgrown and had been cut the week before in very
good (hot, dry) weather. The result was like dancing on ice!
One solution, if you are nervous about damage, is to cup the
other dancers elbow with your other hand.(i.e when turning right
hands, cup your left hand under the other dancers right elbow) It is
quite comfortable, produces a good close turn and helps prevent
any likely slips. That used to be common practise on slippery floors
in the past in this area.

On Fri, 9 Jun 2006, Thomas G. Mungall, III wrote:
> Regarding dance technique and etiquette -- I attend both Scottish Country
> dance classes and vintage dance classes and I have been presented with a
> problem...what to do when people want to turn using the so called "thumb
> hold". I was always taught that this turn is incorrect and in most Scottish
> classes people use the correct handshake hold for turns. However in the
> vintage classes (which dance a pretty good number of Scottish Country
> dances) have what I call an American influence and while not all use the
> thumb hold, a good many do. My arguement is it can cause injury.
My understanding is that the thumb hold is very common in some
non-RCSDS Scottish Dancing Circles, to the point where it is expected.
It isn't dangerous, even at speed, *provided that it is done right
and every one uses it*, so *not* using it may be frowned upon and
considered dangerous.

At 6/9/2006 12:36 PM, you wrote:
>On Fri, 9 Jun 2006, Thomas G. Mungall, III wrote:
>
> > Regarding dance technique and etiquette -- I attend both Scottish Country
> > dance classes and vintage dance classes and I have been presented with a
> > problem...what to do when people want to turn using the so called "thumb
> > hold". I was always taught that this turn is incorrect and in most Scottish
> > classes people use the correct handshake hold for turns. However in the
> > vintage classes (which dance a pretty good number of Scottish Country
> > dances) have what I call an American influence and while not all use the
> > thumb hold, a good many do. My arguement is it can cause injury.
Why not have the leader of the group reemphasize the appropriate
period style for the turn?

I am wondering which period SCD is to be put into, in the email by
M.G.Mudrey? It is 20th century in style, though earlier in its origins.
The turn described by Martin (I think) is called a cleekit or a Scotch turn,
and is the one that Jean Milligan taught, though it seems to have been
Anglified by the RSCDS in later years.

I suspect the person who referred to a "Tulloch turn" meant what I would
call a "birling turn," i.e. sort of a spin. In our area we do
this with by grasping our partner's elbow with one hand (the hand you are
"turning with") and clasping the other hands below. I think of a Tulloch
turn as being a propelled pivot turn, done with the one hand around the
partner's elbow and the other in the air or holding a skirt. Whereas a
Tulloch turn is actually rather slow, the birling turn is fast, and it's
also a lot of fun, so regardless of what Roy Clowes intended, I suspect
some won't be able to resist the lure of spinning 1 3/4 when the
opportunity arises.
FYI, we don't do Postie's Jig with the spins here in the Twin Cities, but
I remember doing that way in Edinburgh with New Scotland.
Lara Friedman-Shedlov
Minneapolis, Minnesota USA
********************************
Lara Friedman~Shedlov "Librarians -- Like Google, but
xxxx@xxxxxxx.xxx warm-blooded"
********************************

Jan wrote:
> Actually I was taught to turn that way some 40 years ago (a children's
> class with an RSCDS teacher). We used to practice the different
> holds by doing slower turns and faster turns so that at any time we
> could take either hold, or change from one hold to the other, smoothly
> and easily.
I'm glad to read that this hold was more than a local aberration which I was
eventually discouraged from using - some people said that it hurt their wrists -
Like Jan, I can remember smoothly changing my hold as we speeded up and slowed down;
and I can even remember going in for a tight turn, both hands missed completely, but
we turned quite safely because our wrists were still wrapped around each other -
(well we didn't fall over, and being much younger at the time that meant that it met
the criteria for being "safe").
Malcolm
Malcolm L Brown
York (UK)