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I understand the push for some extra shifts, but I'm wary of getting a car made by folks on their 70th hour for the week...

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QA, QC and Final Inspections are typically carried out by folks who get lots of sleep for that very reason so I hope TM isn't sleep depriving the last quality gate (of course this means Elon isn't doing it anymore either)

Possibly you're overthinking this ... if Elon is personally inspecting right now, then clearly they understand the importance of the Model S meeting high quality standards. I think they're smart enough to make sure all their employees on the production line are getting enough sleep.

Possibly you're overthinking this ... if Elon is personally inspecting right now, then clearly they understand the importance of the Model S meeting high quality standards. I think they're smart enough to make sure all their employees on the production line are getting enough sleep.

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Come hang out at City Beach, Kirby's, Jack's, or any of the other bars around Fremont, or go a little further south into San Jose. May be an eye opener for what you think, and what is actually happening. Line workers are the true pulse of any manufacturing facility.

Come hang out at City Beach, Kirby's, Jack's, or any of the other bars around Fremont, or go a little further south into San Jose. May be an eye opener for what you think, and what is actually happening. Line workers are the true pulse of any manufacturing facility.

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Not sure what you mean here ... I've run manufacturing operations and am very familiar with the skills the line workers bring to the table. I also know it is highly unlikely that management would be so foolish as to downplay that role by working them 24/7 if they want a quality product.

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To clarify ... I haven't run automotive manufacturing lines. The manufacturing operations I've been responsible for have been both for highly complex software driven electro mechanical custom medical devices and pharmaceutical fill finish lines, including a green field design and build. But not automotive.

I understand the push for some extra shifts, but I'm wary of getting a car made by folks on their 70th hour for the week...

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You've certainly got a point there, but this isn't the only industry where people can/do work long hours. Ask the next firefighter you see what sorts of shifts he/she works. Or how about that on call surgeon, the ER nurse? Those are people in life and death jobs working crazy shifts and long hours. There are many other professions with the same circumstances.

Naturally, when a person doesn't get enough down time their work can suffer and they become prone to making mistakes. It's as much the worker's responsibility, as it is their boss's responsibility, to know when they need to take a day for themselves. From what I know, Tesla is very open to that. Indeed, the CEO has said publically that he knows 7 days per week, 60-80 hrs per week is not sustainable.

You've certainly got a point there, but this isn't the only industry where people can/do work long hours. Ask the next firefighter you see what sorts of shifts he/she works. Or how about that on call surgeon, the ER nurse? Those are people in life and death jobs working crazy shifts and long hours. There are many other professions with the same circumstances.

Naturally, when a person doesn't get enough down time their work can suffer and they become prone to making mistakes. It's as much the worker's responsibility, as it is their boss's responsibility, to know when they need to take a day for themselves. From what I know, Tesla is very open to that. Indeed, the CEO has said publically that he knows 7 days per week, 60-80 hrs per week is not sustainable.

QA, QC and Final Inspections are typically carried out by folks who get lots of sleep for that very reason so I hope TM isn't sleep depriving the last quality gate (of course this means Elon isn't doing it anymore either)

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They can avoid this by using shift workers in manufacturing so that no one shift works more than a certain number of hours per day (like having a day shift and a night shift).

And it is clearly not sustainable to read TMC 60-80 hours, 7 days a week, and to rely on the moderators to do all the QC single-handedly. It is every posters responsibility to avoid contributing to the background noise and - huh? sorry, phone ringing. Yes, Doug?

Musk: Right now we're working six days a week. Some people are working seven days a week – I do – but for a lot of people, working seven days a week is not sustainable. The factory is operational seven days a week but most people we only ask to work six days a week right now and, obviously, we want to get that to a more reasonable number. I think people can sustain a 50-hour work week. I think that's a good work week. If you're joining Tesla, you're joining a company to work hard. We're not trying to sell you a bill of goods. If you can go work for another company and then maybe you can work a 40-hour work week. But if you work for Tesla, the minimum is really a 50-hour week and there are times when it'll be 60- to 80-hour weeks. If somebody is hourly, they receive time-and-a-half but if somebody is salary, then we do cash and stock bonuses for going above and beyond the call of duty. So we try to make it fair compensation, but the general understanding is that if you're at Tesla, you're choosing to be at the equivalent of Special Forces. There's the regular Army, and that's fine, but if you are working at Tesla, you're choosing to step up your game. And that has pluses and minuses. It's cool to be Special Forces, but it also means you're working your ass off. It's not for everyone.

I recently have visited the Porsche 911 production site. They are producing more than 150 cars a day without a night shift. This is all on a single line producing all the different versions of 911 and Caymans/Boxter. All on a single production line. I've been pretty impressed. I highly recommend it, if you happen to be in Stuttgart, Germany sometimes.
They are not doing night shifts as they think that this is decreasing quality too much.
To me it seems that once all the initial quirks are resolved, it should be possible to achieve over 100 cars a day without a night shift.

I recently have visited the Porsche 911 production site. They are producing more than 150 cars a day without a night shift. This is all on a single line producing all the different versions of 911 and Caymans/Boxter. All on a single production line. I've been pretty impressed. I highly recommend it, if you happen to be in Stuttgart, Germany sometimes.
They are not doing night shifts as they think that this is decreasing quality too much.
To me it seems that once all the initial quirks are resolved, it should be possible to achieve over 100 cars a day without a night shift.

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This depends 100% on the assembly time of the vehicle and equipment on the line.

You've certainly got a point there, but this isn't the only industry where people can/do work long hours. Ask the next firefighter you see what sorts of shifts he/she works. Or how about that on call surgeon, the ER nurse? Those are people in life and death jobs working crazy shifts and long hours. There are many other professions with the same circumstances.

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Oh certainly, and it's been shown over and over people working on long shifts perform worse as the shift ends. Even people working 10-12 hours shifts get burn out and do poorer quality work even if they've slept well.

I understand it's done in various industries. That doesn't mean the practice isn't rife with issue, it's just something that's done because it's something that's always been done.

There was a review of aircraft tower navigators an exhaustion a few years ago and a recommendation was let the guys nap for 30 minutes every X hours on shift because it's an intense job (a few fell asleep sitting upright at the console). The head of the government agency said "No way, no one gets paid to sleep on the job!" Recommendations and reality be damned...he wasn't willing to break with the preconception of what's culturally acceptable.

I suppose if I'm passionate about the issue it's because I've studied it quite a bit in the context of the software industry.

Oh certainly, and it's been shown over and over people working on long shifts perform worse as the shift ends. Even people working 10-12 hours shifts get burn out and do poorer quality work even if they've slept well.

I understand it's done in various industries. That doesn't mean the practice isn't rife with issue, it's just something that's done because it's something that's always been done.

There was a review of aircraft tower navigators an exhaustion a few years ago and a recommendation was let the guys nap for 30 minutes every X hours on shift because it's an intense job. The head of the government agency said "No way, no one gets paid to sleep on the job!" Recommendations and reality be damned...he wasn't willing to break with the preconception of what's culturally acceptable.

I suppose if I'm passionate about the issue it's because I've studied it quite a bit in the context of the software industry.

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I used to work at a factory and we would produce more Tues-Thurs (3 days) than Fri-Sun (4 days). Night shift at that plant was actually pretty good and regularly produced 80-90% of what day shift did. And most of that was due to lack of engineering support, which was really day shift only.

EDIT: We ran 12 hour shifts. 4 shifts. And ran 24 hours about 263 days a year (no labor day, or new years day). Day and Night shift would swap every 3 weeks. So all the line operators did both day and night shift. They would also switch 3 and 4 day weeks every 3 weeks.

I used to work at a factory and we would produce more Tues-Thurs (3 days) than Fri-Sun (4 days). Night shift at that plant was actually pretty good and regularly produced 80-90% of what day shift did. And most of that was due to lack of engineering support, which was really day shift only.

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Yea, I have no idea how Tesla is handling it so my concerns are somewhat questionable. Maybe they run two shifts with rotating folks so no one is on for extended periods and they all get actual time off. I really have no idea, I can only surmise based on that article with Elon where he was talking 60-70 hours weeks.

I was thinking of that kind of pace and my car being produced in December when folks are really running on empty...

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