Asinine tag for the cops for not hauling the dad in temporarily and making sure the kid was actually okay by taking him to a hospital and speaking with a social worker. A young kid is not necessarily going to stand there and be fully honest about the man beating the snot out of him, especially when it's his dad.

Yes I know parents have the right to discipline their children, but I don't agree with beating kids. Unplug the farking computer if you don't want him to use it, and ground him for a week.

Big kudos to the animation company people for calling 911 when they thought that kid was being attacked, and taking up the cause to help other kids. That's just awesome they're trying to help.

strangeluck:Asinine tag for the cops for not hauling the dad in temporarily and making sure the kid was actually okay by taking him to a hospital and speaking with a social worker.

No.

A million times no.

*knock knock*

"Sir, someone from halfway across the country called us and said they were talking to your son on the Internet and they heard him screaming. Therefore, on those grounds alone, we're taking you in for questioning and we're going to scare the living sh*t out of the kid by forcing him to watch his dad hauled away from him in the middle of the night and some strange lady will come in and ask him a bunch of questions but not answer any of his about where his dad is or what the hell is going on."

When I was 4 years old, my family went through a false accusation of child abuse by a vindictive neighbor, angry that my parents had called the cops because of their excessive partying (I'm not talking just noise, but two people farking on our back porch kind of partying). The "investigation" involved, among other things, the police demanding that my parents remove their child's clothing to show proof that no crime had been committed. (Yes, the cops demanded to see my bare naked ass.) As a result of the lawsuit my parents filed, the law was permanently changed in my birth state with a clause bearing my family's last name.

I would ask that anyone posting to this thread with legal training that recognizes this case from my somewhat vague description please do not post the name; I like my semi-anonimity here.

I will fight to my last breath against a society in which what you believe should have happened, could EVER happen to another child like me. The cops did their job in this case, unlike the ones that visited me that night.

Don't get me wrong, I am not in favor of excessively spanking a child, and I hope that one day we will progress as a society to the parental education level necessary for the practice of corporal punishment to be the exception rather than the norm. For now, negative reinforcement through pain association is an option that parents have used throughout history, and will likely use for the foreseeable future for the simple reason that it works. If the use of a belt for punishment is not leaving permanent scars or bruises, but merely causes temporary pain, then it is absolutely the parent's prerogative. A vague description from a skype session based only on the sound of the boy's cries, especially considering the boy was not known to the individuals personally (i.e., what he sounds like when he sad cries vs. hurt cries vs. afraid cries), is frankly a ridiculous reason for farking with a family and scaring the sh*t out of a poor kid.

People who use the phrase "child abuse" when they see a child being physically punished cheapen the term and make it harder to solve the problem of real child abuse.

ox45tallboy:People who use the phrase "child abuse" when they see a child being physically punished cheapen the term and make it harder to solve the problem of real child abuse.

Many believe corporal punishment is abuse.

Exercising good judgment is difficult and subjective. It seems our current society's answer is to eschew judgment entirely which leads to no tolerance policies (see schools).

Child abuse is appropriately a sensitive topic. I have unpopular opinions regarding the policing of child abuse which have led to an interest in other opinions. I look forward to reading this thread later tonight at work.

Frederick:Child abuse is appropriately a sensitive topic. I have unpopular opinions regarding the policing of child abuse which have led to an interest in other opinions. I look forward to reading this thread later tonight at work.

My views are... interesting as well. My parents later went on to become foster parents for dozens of children, and I was told some nonspecific information about many of the children (I was a teenager by then and understood the need for privacy, but telling me some things might avoid conflicts and make me more sensitive to some of their issues - it was a really crazy gray area). In other words, I have also seen with my own eyes the effects of real, physical abuse on a child firsthand - the emotional scarring and psychological and developmental issues it causes, as well as the results of a false accusation and the crazy-ass sh*t I went through at the age of 4, and the trial when I was five.

I acknowledge the difference between experience and real study of information, and readily admit my own inadequacies as to the latter. But I can honestly say there are few people with my experiences in this matter. I would like to discuss this further with others who can give more of their own views having more of an educational knowledge than I possess.

I am +1'ing this piece of sh*t article and !#$^(#@ headline, not in the way I would +1 a Townhall link on the Politics tab, but because I would like more discussion about this subject.

And maybe it's not, since it has been used in child rearing since children existed.

And maybe slavery has existed since before the beginnings of recorded history, but we realize now that it is a barbaric practice that has no business in a civilized world.

The main problem is the potential for abuse of one's "rights". I'm sure there were many people who felt that forcing a criminal or lazy debtor to work off his debt by performing menial labor for someone who could afford to pay for it was a pretty good way of doing things, and then things just went south from there. Slapping a child's hand to keep him from doing something that could hurt himself is a noble cause when there is no option to remove him from the temptation to do so, but there are so many tiny steps between that and beating a child senseless that every single one of them could be justified if the one before was.

Maybe we should go with the Potter Stewart definition - "I know it when I see it."

I would think that certain areas of the country view "discipline" and "child abuse" very differently from other areas of the country. An Internet connection outside of your area, and with little context of the location, can provide a confusing sense of what is really going on. This is something that the local police, like in this case, can probably handle better than an Internet presence.

I look forward to the day when this unspanked crop of kids grows up into self-serving, unemployable sociopaths. To all of the anti-spanking parents: have a great time living with, supporting, and cleaning up after your child for the rest of your life. I wouldn't make any retirement plans. You aren't going to have any money after paying the lawyers to get Junior out of his sixth DUI. And don't forget to blame everyone but yourself when you realize you dislike your own child.

I feel angry-sick when I see a kid on the playground push another kid down. His mother, who's always two steps away, gets down on her knees and explains to the little brat how were supposed to be polite and orderly. Then she musses his hair and sends him off, having taught him nothing. Worse case, he's got to go sit on a bench for a few minutes by himself. Yeah, because self-reflection and isolation are punishments. It's face palming idiocy at its worst.

Not spanking is child abuse. The child will grow up with far more mental and emotional scars if he isn't spanked and firmly disciplined. And when did bruising become abuse? I'm not talking about blacking the kids eyes or anything, but there should be discolored marks on the buttocks and thighs - IT'S A SPANKING FOR CHRIST'S SAKE. You want the kid to remember the lesson for longer than the actual spanking, right? Even parents who spank go too lightly these days. And all because they're afraid of some bleeding heart reporting them to child services.

But go right ahead and raise your three foot facsimile of your pussy. The world really needs more pussies and cry babies. There's just not enough. Pieces of shiat.

spentmiles:I look forward to the day when this unspanked crop of kids grows up into self-serving, unemployable sociopaths. To all of the anti-spanking parents: have a great time living with, supporting, and cleaning up after your child for the rest of your life. I wouldn't make any retirement plans. You aren't going to have any money after paying the lawyers to get Junior out of his sixth DUI. And don't forget to blame everyone but yourself when you realize you dislike your own child.

I feel angry-sick when I see a kid on the playground push another kid down. His mother, who's always two steps away, gets down on her knees and explains to the little brat how were supposed to be polite and orderly. Then she musses his hair and sends him off, having taught him nothing. Worse case, he's got to go sit on a bench for a few minutes by himself. Yeah, because self-reflection and isolation are punishments. It's face palming idiocy at its worst.

Not spanking is child abuse. The child will grow up with far more mental and emotional scars if he isn't spanked and firmly disciplined. And when did bruising become abuse? I'm not talking about blacking the kids eyes or anything, but there should be discolored marks on the buttocks and thighs - IT'S A SPANKING FOR CHRIST'S SAKE. You want the kid to remember the lesson for longer than the actual spanking, right? Even parents who spank go too lightly these days. And all because they're afraid of some bleeding heart reporting them to child services.

But go right ahead and raise your three foot facsimile of your pussy. The world really needs more pussies and cry babies. There's just not enough. Pieces of shiat.

This might be the most trolltastic one yet spent. Looking forward to seeing the responses.

I cannot, as a human, stand to hear the scream and cries of children in pain. When you hear videos of kids being beaten, that bs with the first graders being told to fight each other by their older siblings, it completely sickens me. As a parent, i have made my child cry plenty of times, but i have never had my child beg and scream to please stop beating him. There are a 1000 ways to effectively discipline your children, and that isn't one.

So weapons are okay now in disciplining kids? I thought that concept went away. Good to know. A more level-headed solution would be to change the access password on the computer, but I understand how infuriating kids that absolutely refuse to listen can be.

spentmiles:I look forward to the day when this unspanked crop of kids grows up into self-serving, unemployable sociopaths. To all of the anti-spanking parents: have a great time living with, supporting, and cleaning up after your child for the rest of your life. I wouldn't make any retirement plans. You aren't going to have any money after paying the lawyers to get Junior out of his sixth DUI. And don't forget to blame everyone but yourself when you realize you dislike your own child.

I feel angry-sick when I see a kid on the playground push another kid down. His mother, who's always two steps away, gets down on her knees and explains to the little brat how were supposed to be polite and orderly. Then she musses his hair and sends him off, having taught him nothing. Worse case, he's got to go sit on a bench for a few minutes by himself. Yeah, because self-reflection and isolation are punishments. It's face palming idiocy at its worst.

Not spanking is child abuse. The child will grow up with far more mental and emotional scars if he isn't spanked and firmly disciplined. And when did bruising become abuse? I'm not talking about blacking the kids eyes or anything, but there should be discolored marks on the buttocks and thighs - IT'S A SPANKING FOR CHRIST'S SAKE. You want the kid to remember the lesson for longer than the actual spanking, right? Even parents who spank go too lightly these days. And all because they're afraid of some bleeding heart reporting them to child services.

But go right ahead and raise your three foot facsimile of your pussy. The world really needs more pussies and cry babies. There's just not enough. Pieces of shiat.

There is no evidence of this. In fact there's lots of evidence against it. Which is why it's not an accepted practice in, for example, training animals. And why it's not used against adults (and never was).

It's just that people are slower on the uptake for changing their social behavior than they are for changing their behavior toward dogs.

they heard him screaming.

And saw him being hit. With something other than a hand. Several times. And recorded it. What more evidence do you need?

This case wasn't ignored for lack of evidence, it was ignored because we tolerate hitting children (so long as you are their legal parent [or have permission from such a person] and use the magic word "discipline"; if you fail either of those tests it's still a crime like it would be if you did the same thing to an adult).

we're taking you in for questioning and we're going to scare the living sh*t out of the kid

Couldn't we solve that problem simply by making child welfare checks a standard part of children's lives, just like dental and medical care? Then kids wouldn't be scared by the questions, would get some sense of what was and was not acceptable behavior from adults in their lives, and wouldn't be as reliant on emergency reporting and foster care -- we could detect problems before they required removal from the home, provide services to the parents to improve everyone's life, and avoid the involvement of the police altogether.

I understand you had a bad time with the system, and I agree it could be improved. Dramatically. The fact that we depend largely on emergency placements initiated by the police and reports from mandatory reporters is bad for children and parents in both cases of real abuse and mistaken or fraudulent reports. But 1700 children died last year from maltreatment by their parents; the solution can't possibly be to raise the bar for reporting.

ox45tallboy:use for the foreseeable future for the simple reason that it works

I appreciate your long and thoughtful posts in this thread, and hope that they're going to inspire many additional interesting posts, but I have to say...

... sure as shiat seems like it *doesn't* work, if the kid is getting beaten repeatedly on the same night for the same transgression, you know?

I like to think that we could live in a world where "violence isn't the answer!", but acknowledge that sometimes it is. I just don't know if it has any place in disciplining another living creature, especially one that is quite literally incapable of defending itself.

There is no evidence of this. In fact there's lots of evidence against it. Which is why it's not an accepted practice in, for example, training animals. And why it's not used against adults (and never was).

It's just that people are slower on the uptake for changing their social behavior than they are for changing their behavior toward dogs.

they heard him screaming.

And saw him being hit. With something other than a hand. Several times. And recorded it. What more evidence do you need?

This case wasn't ignored for lack of evidence, it was ignored because we tolerate hitting children (so long as you are their legal parent [or have permission from such a person] and use the magic word "discipline"; if you fail either of those tests it's still a crime like it would be if you did the same thing to an adult).

we're taking you in for questioning and we're going to scare the living sh*t out of the kid

Couldn't we solve that problem simply by making child welfare checks a standard part of children's lives, just like dental and medical care? Then kids wouldn't be scared by the questions, would get some sense of what was and was not acceptable behavior from adults in their lives, and wouldn't be as reliant on emergency reporting and foster care -- we could detect problems before they required removal from the home, provide services to the parents to improve everyone's life, and avoid the involvement of the police altogether.

I understand you had a bad time with the system, and I agree it could be improved. Dramatically. The fact that we depend largely on emergency placements initiated by the police and reports from mandatory reporters is bad for children and parents in both cases of real abuse and mistaken or fraudulent reports. But 1700 children died last year from maltreatment by their parents; the solution can't possibly be to raise the bar for reporting.

THIS. Totally THIS

/and yes, I am one of those who think "Violence doesn't solve the problem" in ANY form//and like one farker said, unplug the damn computer if you don't want the kid on it. Taking away desired items would work better!

profplump:Couldn't we solve that problem simply by making child welfare checks a standard part of children's lives, just like dental and medical care?

As if child welfare agencies aren't already up to their necks checking on actual abused children. As if such a proposal would be accepted by law abiding parents without a farking riot. As if governmental interference and bureaucracy ever solve anything.

Are you out of your mind? Routine child welfare checks on over 60 million children...ridiculous.

strangeluck:Asinine tag for the cops for not hauling the dad in temporarily and making sure the kid was actually okay by taking him to a hospital and speaking with a social worker. A young kid is not necessarily going to stand there and be fully honest about the man beating the snot out of him, especially when it's his dad.

Not necessarily.Very often, the social workers default assumption is that 'the bad thing' happened, no matter what anyone says.

Similar story, different 'problem'A couple of years ago, a friend of mine got a DUI. Had to go to weekly counseling for 6 months or so.

Social worker: "So, does anyone else in your family have a problem with alcohol abuse?"Friend: "No"Social worker: "Has anyone in your family committed suicide?"Friend: "Yes, my great grandmother"Social worker: "OK then...in addition to your great-grandmother, does anyone else in your family have an alcohol abuse problem?"Friend: "No, you stupid cow! My great-grandmother killed herself because her husband was blown up in WWII!"

The social workers default assumption was alcohol abuse.

Not saying it shouldn't be looked into. But automatically opening a case and getting the family into 'the system', based on a random internet report, might not be the right path either.

mafiageek1980://and like one farker said, unplug the damn computer if you don't want the kid on it. Taking away desired items would work better!

Exactly. If I had problem with one of my children being a bully, I might consider hitting them as a means to show them "Isn't pleasant, is it?". t's one thing to teach a kid not to use the fact he matured earlier, you don't throw your weight around (and there is always a bigger guy out there). For non violent offenses though, you don't use violent responses. It's always a scale, if the kid refuses to leave the computer, pick him up and place him in his room. If he bites you when you pick him up, smack him across the face. You don't bust out the belt and go to town though.

/ problem with the computer? Just put a password on the account that only you and your wife know//the violence is a response by a failure of a parent who can't actually articulate and set boundaries

I've yet to have occasion to spank my kid. Of course he's just naturally a good, helpful kid with natural poor impulse control. I understand that kids, well he's still a toddler even, will do shiat just because poor impulse control I have a friend who has commented that it seems like she's always having to spank her kid who is only a few months older than my kid. I confess to being a bit of a snob about it and wonder if her kid is really that difficult or if the spankings are making the kid more difficult. Could be one of those "if the only tool you have is a hammer" sorts of thing. I'm glad my kid seems to work with my method so far, what ever the case.

Police there took a report and went to investigate, but filed no charges.

"They interviewed the gentleman," Daubert said. "He said, yes, he was disciplining the boy for being on the computer. The boy said he was on computer when he shouldn't have been, and said he deserved to be punished, and it was left at that."

He should have just shot the compu---

No, I can't snark. Not about this.

They got Skype audio and video of the kid being beaten, and the sperm donor admitting it to the police, and NO FARKING CHANGES FILES?

profplump:Couldn't we solve that problem simply by making child welfare checks a standard part of children's lives, just like dental and medical care?

Um, how about FARK NO - having a cavity is not a crime, getting a cold does send your parents to prison (or do you want that too?) Don't even try to equate checking for cavities to checking for a crime.

ox45tallboy:When I was 4 years old, my family went through a false accusation of child abuse by a vindictive neighbor

Yeah, but this wasn't a false report and the animation company had cell phone evidence and several witnesses, so not really the same thing.

Another not so CSB - When my sister was 10 my mom was beating the crap out of her because she thought she heard my sister mutter something under her breath. Her boyfriend had the good sense to stop the abu--- oh, wait no, he got my sister's 10 year old friend out of the house and back home, where the traumatized friend told her mother what she had witnessed.

CPS came and removed my sister from the home for one evening brought her to my uncle's house (so no, she was not in some foster care or Oliver Twist orphanage), then drove her back the next day after determining it was all good.

I guess they at least stopped my sister from getting beat that night, so there's that, but getting her out of the house did seem like the very least they could do.

OtherLittleGuy:OtherLittleGuy:They got Skype audio and video of the kid being beaten, and the sperm donor admitting it to the police, and NO FARKING CHANGES CHARGES FILES?

/goddammitsomuch

Yes, rage, rage against the night, but spellcheck first.

As I understood the article, they weren't recording the skype session (probably something they put forth "permission slip" they have parents sign), and while several of them witnessed it there was no recording - they only got some crappy secondary recording via their cell phones.