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Topic: If UR were THE Truth of the Bible, then wouldn't it be plain(er) to everybody? (Read 15700 times)

Scrybe

It's a funny argument when you consider how fractured and dysfunctional the organization called 'the church' is. Obviously there are a lot of things in 'the' Bible that are not so "plain". At least not until you are given revelation.

Enchiridion

"If UR were THETruth of the Bible, then wouldn't it be plain(er) to everybody?"

Possibly because of passages such as these?

PS 21:9 At the time of your appearing you will make them like a fiery furnace. In his wrath the LORD will swallow them up, and his fire will consume them.

ISA 26:11 O LORD, your hand is lifted high, but they do not see it. Let them see your zeal for your people and be put to shame; let the fire reserved for your enemies consume them.

HEB 10:26 If we deliberately keep on sinning after we have received the knowledge of the truth, no sacrifice for sins is left, 27 but only a fearful expectation of judgment and of raging fire that will consume the enemies of God. 28 Anyone who rejected the law of Moses died without mercy on the testimony of two or three witnesses. 29 How much more severely do you think a man deserves to be punished who has trampled the Son of God under foot, who has treated as an unholy thing the blood of the covenant that sanctified him, and who has insulted the Spirit of grace? 30 For we know him who said, "It is mine to avenge; I will repay," and again, "The Lord will judge his people." 31 It is a dreadful thing to fall into the hands of the living God.

PS 21:9 At the time of your appearing you will make them like a fiery furnace. In his wrath the LORD will swallow them up, and his fire will consume them.

Talking about Israel, when Jesus showed up on the seen, not talking about the Second Coming. That happened 33 AD.

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ISA 26:11 O LORD, your hand is lifted high, but they do not see it. Let them see your zeal for your people and be put to shame; let the fire reserved for your enemies consume them.

This happened in 33 AD.

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HEB 10:26 If we deliberately keep on sinning after we have received the knowledge of the truth, no sacrifice for sins is left, 27 but only a fearful expectation of judgment and of raging fire that will consume the enemies of God. 28 Anyone who rejected the law of Moses died without mercy on the testimony of two or three witnesses. 29 How much more severely do you think a man deserves to be punished who has trampled the Son of God under foot, who has treated as an unholy thing the blood of the covenant that sanctified him, and who has insulted the Spirit of grace? 30 For we know him who said, "It is mine to avenge; I will repay," and again, "The Lord will judge his people." 31 It is a dreadful thing to fall into the hands of the living God.

The book of HEBREWS...who have an understanding of the Law, so understand the concept of how Holy the Son of God is. Speaking to the Hebrew people of how great of an error they had in judgment, and were cut off. That again happened in 33 AD. It is like if an aquaintence of mine stole $100 from his grandmother on social insurance to go out partying at night, I would say. "Men who steal from rich corporations go to jail for years; how much more deserving and severe of punishment should you get for stealing from a poor woman, who also happens to be your grandmother!" Which crime hurt the most? Corperations have insurance to cover their losses, the grandmother goes without groceries, for two weeks, stretching what she had. Though a man who stole from a corporation will go to jail for 25 years to life sometimes, but your grandmother would forgive you. If you really understood this, which one is worse punishment?

It is plain, and you are right, people have a wrong preconcieved Idea that it is talking about something that it is not.

Many make the mistake of thinking that God wrote the Bible in such a way that it could be easily understood by all. This is not the way of God as demonstrated by Jesus. He said that He spoke to the lost in parables so that they would not understand so hearing they would not hear and understanding they would not understand. But, to those who had left all to follow Him, He spoke plainly for it was given unto THEM to know the mysteries of the Kingdom.

Pro 25:2 It is the glory of God to conceal a thing: but the honour of kings is to search out a matter.

1Co 2:6 Howbeit we speak wisdom among them that are perfect: yet not the wisdom of this world, nor of the princes of this world, that come to nought: 1Co 2:7 But we speak the wisdom of God in a mystery, even the hidden wisdom, which God ordained before the world unto our glory: 1Co 2:8 Which none of the princes of this world knew: for had they known it, they would not have crucified the Lord of glory. 1Co 2:9 But as it is written, Eye hath not seen, nor ear heard, neither have entered into the heart of man, the things which God hath prepared for them that love him. 1Co 2:10 But God hath revealed them unto us by his Spirit: for the Spirit searcheth all things, yea, the deep things of God.

God does not ignore His own admonition and cast His precious pearls before swine. He hides His truths on many levels so we can find them as nuggets as we draw near to Him to understand.

So to answer the OP question, God does not make UR plain because it is not given to them to know, but is reserved for them who love and seek Him. It is given to the disciples and not plain to just believers.

So to answer the OP question, God does not make UR plain because it is not given to them to know, but is reserved for them who love and seek Him. It is given to the disciples and not plain to just believers.

Or God makes all things clear and it is freely given to all, but is only understood by them who love and seek Him. It is human nature to think of it in their own terms, and so are befuddled by them. As Isaiah 28 says, they will recieve instruction from babbling tongues, but in that day the Lord will become a beautiful crown and a glorious diadem to the remnant of His people. Same result, minus the mysticism.

John 3: 34-36For he whom God hath sent speaketh the words of God: for God giveth not the Spirit by measure unto him.

The Father loveth the Son, and hath given all things into his hand.

He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.

I would urge all to believe Christ first and foremost.

But we will believe as we are given to believe. No amount of discussion or scripture will open the ears of the deaf. Some are not deaf, but are as babes.

Jesus Christ will judge accordingly at the proper time. The primary thing is to understand who the narrow gate is. There is no salvation outside of Christ.

I definitely understand how UR'ist feel, for we desire all to come to Christ. All MEN (his family) will come to Christ, but many people (humankind who are not of him), will not. This is not my doing, but God's. Still, all things are not for ourselves, but for God.

Peace & Life in Christ.

1 John 3:15Whosoever hateth his brother is a murderer: and ye know that no murderer hath eternal life abiding in him.

1 John 5:12He that hath the Son hath life; and he that hath not the Son of God hath not life.

« Last Edit: September 20, 2007, 01:26:19 PM by Peacetroll »

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Matthew 7:14Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it.

You said: "I definitely understand how UR'ist feel, for we desire all to come to Christ. All MEN (his family) will come to Christ, but many people (humankind who are not of him), will not. This is not my doing, but God's. Still, all things are not for ourselves, but for God".

All things are of God. (Col. 1:20) says that he will "reconcile ALL things unto himself. Whether they be in heaven or on earth".

There will come a time when ALL will bow the knee and confess that Jesus is Lord. It is not meant for all to believe at this time.

Paul said what? Paul says many things that contridict or confound, and he did this on purpose, for the elects sake. If you don't believe me, believe Peter (another apostle):

2 Peter 3:15-17 And account that the longsuffering of our Lord is salvation; even as our beloved brother Paul also according to the wisdom given unto him hath written unto you;

As also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things; in which are some things hard to be understood, which they that are unlearned and unstable wrest, as they do also the other scriptures, unto their own destruction.

Ye therefore, beloved, seeing ye know these things before, beware lest ye also, being led away with the error of the wicked, fall from your own stedfastness.

You believe not Peter, and you sometimes appear to believe not Christ. Why?

If you do not understand what Peter meant about Pauls writtings, here is an explicit example:

Ephesians 1:10That in the dispensation of the fulness of times he might gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven, and which are on earth; even in him:

One must build precept upon precept. And Pauls writtings are not the best place to start for clarity concerning truth in scripture. But so many UR'ist constantly resort to Paul's writting in defense of their doctrine ( I should know, I did for 25 years), refusing to beleive Christ nor Peter.

Start with Christ. Start with the 4 gospels. Read Peter, James, Jude anything but stay away from Pauls epistles unto you are ripe in understanding of the other apostles.

John 3:16For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

Pauls writtings are not for babes in Christ.

P.S. No offence intended, only to wake some of you out of slumber.

« Last Edit: September 20, 2007, 09:09:33 PM by Peacetroll »

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Matthew 7:14Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it.

Then, if you will, try to look through scripture without resorting to Paul for 3 various Universalist answers

Difficult to do.

And many of the natural branches of the time (churches), did not have Pauls writtings. For he was sent to the gentiles (unnatural branches, that some might have hope to be 'grafted' into the everlasting body of Christ, or the Temple of God).

Think about it, if you will.

Peace in Christ.

« Last Edit: September 24, 2007, 11:47:11 PM by willieH »

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Matthew 7:14Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it.

shibboleth

One of my favorite stories is about a king who was told by two men that they would make him a new set of clothes. But, there was something very unusual about the clothing they would make for him; it would be invisible to everyone except the enlightened ones. Well, the king is "dressed" in his new clothes and paraded in public. Everyone is shocked, but noone will say the king is naked because they don't want to appear ignorant or stupid. But, a little boy yells out,"Why doesn't the king have any clothes on?" Suddenly, everyone realizes they have been duped, and all it took was for a little boy to reveal it to them.

I tell this story because it reminds me so much of what I was taught in church meetings. I was taught many beliefs as a child that I just accepted without questioning them. When I became an adult, I did study many of these doctrines, but, I still came to the same conclusion I had been taught it church. I had never heard of UR and knew noone who believed it. I think many people believed it, but were too afraid to speak out because of fear of man.

Also, you sit in a pew and listen to a man who has learned Greek and Hebrew and has many years of seminary training. This can be quite intimidating to people without much education in these areas. I would read that every knee will bow and tongue confess and wonder what this could possibly mean. I read that Jesus came to save all men and that all are in Adam and all are in Christ. I just ignored these scriptures because they didn't line up with my theology. But, they continued to haunt me until God gave me a revelation of his love for all men. Ever since that day, I have only doubted UR a few times, and a quick study always shows me that I have been listening to the thoughts of men and not to God.

Let's face it, many people go to church for human fellowship. If they find God there, that's allright, but they are mainly there for friendship with people. Giving that up for the truth is too hard for many people. Fortunately for myself, I discover UR after I had quit going to institutional churches. I had nothing to give up, because I had already given it up!!! PTL it's been lonely at times, but Jesus is ever with me and never leaves or forsakes me. It is also harder to unlearn something, then to learn it right the first time. That's why agnostics, athiests, unchurched people are the best students. They have nothing to lose because they haven't believed falsehood to start with.

Do you really intend to overcome vast volumes of documentation and commentary in favor of Universal Salvation with a one page 'dissertation' on Balaam?

Don't get me wrong. If I believe an untruth, I would want to consider the evidence that would point out my error. However, two things come to my mind after reading your 'dissertation'.

You need to:1) define and or describe "black darkness."2) define "forever" and then tell me why that would be the best English translation of that Greek word.

These two things will reveal to me and the rest of us how you have come to the conclusions you have come to.

One last question... If you could be shown the error of your conclusions, would you be willing to reconsider the abandonment of 35 years of teaching and belief? That would need to be another thread, but gimme ayes or no anyways.

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.. but we speak the wisdom of God in a mystery, even the hidden wisdom, that God foreordained before the ages to our glory, which none of the rulers of this age have known, for if they had known, they would not have crucified the Lord of Glory.

12 But these, like natural brute beasts made to be caught and destroyed, speak evil of the things they do not understand, and will utterly perish in their own corruption, 13 and will receive the wages of unrighteousness, as those who count it pleasure to carouse in the daytime. They are spots and blemishes, carousing in their own deceptions while they feast with you, 14 having eyes full of adultery and that cannot cease from sin, enticing unstable souls. They have a heart trained in covetous practices, and are accursed children. 15 They have forsaken the right way and gone astray, following the way of Balaam the son of Beor, who loved the wages of unrighteousness; 16 but he was rebuked for his iniquity: a dumb donkey speaking with a man's voice restrained the madness of the prophet. 17 These, are wells without water, clouds carried by a tempest, for whom is reserved the blackness of darkness forever.

And just as I believe the Kingdom of God is everlasting, so do I believe the second death to be.

Then, if you will, try to look through scripture without resorting to Paul for 3 various Universalist answers.

JESUS' own SPOKEN words state the SALVATION of ALL... (John 12:32)

That you or anyone suggests the words of PAUL to be other than containing TRUTH is a blasphemy... You have been told this before...

No one is to believe ONE part of the WORD of GOD over another, for in the end, they are derived by INSPIRATION of the Holy Spirit of GOD... the accounts of the GOSPELS and the words of PETER are no more or less inspired than those of PAUL... It ALL joins together as the expression of the PERSON of YHVH to His creation, JESUS CHRIST who is the WORD... whether He BE noted in the GOSPELS or in the writings of Paul, John, Peter, Jude, James, or John... these words are preserved and passed down in the hands of men... in and by the direction of GOD Himself...

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Difficult to do.

What appears NOT difficult for YOU, is to NUMBER YOURSELF conveniently as a person which is OF GOD... If God, as you suggest, numbers some of "humankind" to be OF HIM and some NOT... He is then become what He says in HIS WORD He is NOT (Acts 10:34/NOT written by PAUL) which is a respecter of PERSONS... For this is SO, ...IF, ...it is as YOU SAY, that He has counted some as IN HIM, and some as NOT...

This is (no offense) foolishness... What value has one lump of dirt over another? Go and grab a handful of it in one hand, and then in the other, and determine which mudpie is worth more than the other PT...

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And many of the natural branches of the time (churches), did not have Pauls writtings. For he was sent to the gentiles (unnatural branches, that some might have hope to be 'grafted' into the everlasting body of Christ, or the Temple of God).

Think about it, if you will.

Peace in Christ.

Even in the "unnatural branches" (which, BTW, ...ironically is a mention from PAUL's writings)... the LIFE within them, is that which CHRIST died for... "Behold the Lamb of God that taketh AWAY the sin of the WORLD" [creation] (John 1:29)... this statement is found in THE GOSPEL of JOHN... which YOU recommend...

Your selectivity and self-inclusion within that selectivity, is what causes suspicion of your view to arise in me PT...

That you claim to believe UR for 25yrs is unsubstanciated... and the writings of PETER note that GOD is not WILLING that ANY perish... The Gospels note in many places the Salvation which is intended for ALL...

John 6:44 No man CAN come to CHRIST, except GOD draw him... John 14:6 No man CAN come to YHVH, except by CHRIST...

This is a SPIRITUAL "catch-22" Men can't come to a saving place, except by His call...

MEN cannot be reconciled except by the WORK of GOD, which GOD has NO RESPECT of PERSONS...

That PAULS writings are hard to be understood is a given... I witness to many the plain and simple notations of PAUL... yet they cannot see them... You "no longer" see them, but INCLUDE yourself in the SAVED... is no more of a GOSPEL of VICTORY than those who preach ET... who also, conveniently INCLUDE THEMSELVES, condemning the others to eternal separation & torment... (Wow! really big victory there! )

Sorry... but your words are empty of LOVE... for LOVE never FAILS... and your words show both FAILURE or SELECTIVITY, both of which are contrary to the WORD (Job 34:19 / Rom 2:11 / Acts 10:34 / Eph 6:9/ Gal 2:6 )... FIVE TIMES this principle found its way into the Bible PT... 5 times!

SHALOM...

In JESUS ...willieH

« Last Edit: September 24, 2007, 11:53:37 PM by willieH »

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martincisneros

There's a half truth that's been taught in the Body of Christ that is a part of the problem where this is concerned. It's the "in Christ" doctrine with regards to the blessings, benefits, and priveleges that are available to those who've already embraced His Lordship. That's all truth and a beautiful truth that I wish that all Christian Universalists knew, as far as blessings and benefits to the firstfruits of the Way of Christ. About the only booklet that I would recommend by Kenneth E. Hagin at this point is a tiny minibook called "In Him" that points out these aspects of the redemption of those who've already embraced the Lordship of Jesus through the means that the Lord's devised in each of our lives to bring us to that point, and it provides a system of study for tracking those ideas throughout the KJV New Testament.

However, "in Christ" should more completely be viewed as:

1. what has come from Christ, per all being created "in Him" in Colossians 1;2. what was credited to Jesus's account in the redemptive act as far as Him baring away the sin of the world, according to 1John 2:1-2, 2Corinthians 5;3. what was in Christ with regards to motive, purpose, directive, mission, and expectation when He went to the Cross - John 12:31-33;4. the extent of everything and everyone that Jesus redemptively died for;5. all that was laid upon the shoulders of Christ at His resurrection, including all that He was declared Lord of by the Father;6. all that Christ through His Gospel and His applications of His Blood and Spirit in His High Priestly ministry is destined to be of any influence in the life of.

All came through Jesus Christ before they came through Adam.

All were in Adam when he died, except for Christ, therefore all except for Christ died in the Garden of Eden.

All were reckoned in Christ by Creation, Incarnation, and Ransom when He died in the behalf of Adam, thereby making the Creation and Adam His debters and ransomed and consequently all who belonged to Adam now belong to Christ.

As in the death of Adam all died, so also in the death of Christ all were made alive and are now being saved generation after generation and eon after eon by His life as He's acheiving His ends within all who are His debters by reason of Him being Lord of all of Creation.

The death of all in the death of Christ and the raising of all through the raising of Christ is assured to us by Jesus in Mark 16:15-16; John 3:17; 12:31-33; 17:22-23; Romans 5; 1Corinthians 15; 2Corinthians 5; Colossians 1; 1Timothy 2; 1John 2; Revelation 1:3-8; 15:3-4.

PS 21:9 At the time of your appearing you will make them like a fiery furnace. In his wrath the LORD will swallow them up, and his fire will consume them.

Talking about Israel, when Jesus showed up on the seen, not talking about the Second Coming. That happened 33 AD.

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ISA 26:11 O LORD, your hand is lifted high, but they do not see it. Let them see your zeal for your people and be put to shame; let the fire reserved for your enemies consume them.

This happened in 33 AD.

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HEB 10:26 If we deliberately keep on sinning after we have received the knowledge of the truth, no sacrifice for sins is left, 27 but only a fearful expectation of judgment and of raging fire that will consume the enemies of God. 28 Anyone who rejected the law of Moses died without mercy on the testimony of two or three witnesses. 29 How much more severely do you think a man deserves to be punished who has trampled the Son of God under foot, who has treated as an unholy thing the blood of the covenant that sanctified him, and who has insulted the Spirit of grace? 30 For we know him who said, "It is mine to avenge; I will repay," and again, "The Lord will judge his people." 31 It is a dreadful thing to fall into the hands of the living God.

The book of HEBREWS...who have an understanding of the Law, so understand the concept of how Holy the Son of God is. Speaking to the Hebrew people of how great of an error they had in judgment, and were cut off. That again happened in 33 AD.

Actually, I think it's talking about encounters in every age of humans before God. It may well definitively happened in 33 A.D. at Christ's Passion, but it is working out through all history & in every life. The GodFire destroyed apostate Jerusalem in 70 A.D. The GodFire destroyed Pagan Rome and is working to destroy Apostate Papal Rome. In my life, the GodFire is destroying (slowly) all in me that is in enmity against God.

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riverman

As the Lord did with Daniel (Nebechadnezzar's dreams) and Joseph (multiple times) He gives understanding of "sacred secrets*" or if you prefer "mysteries" to those He has called and chosen. Does He do this for a purpose? Yes, to elevate His chosen (Daniel and Joseph both being types of the elect) which also glorifies Himself as His elect proclaim His power and His power alone as the source of this wisdom and understanding.

1Ch 22:12 Only the LORD give thee wisdom and understanding, and give thee charge concerning Israel, that thou mayest keep the law of the LORD thy God.

The whole bible is riddles and parables, if something appears to be crystal clear to the natural mind we can be sure there are also deeper meanings to be mined.

Eze 17:2 Son of man, put forth a riddle, and speak a parable unto the house of Israel;

Eze 20:49 Then said I, Ah Lord GOD! they say of me, Doth he not speak parables?

Isa 28:21 For the LORD shall rise up as in mount Perazim, he shall be wroth as in the valley of Gibeon, that he may do his work, his strange work; and bring to pass his act, his strange act.

Isa 45:3 And I will give thee the treasures of darkness, and hidden riches of secret places, that thou mayest know that I, the LORD, which call thee by thy name, am the God of Israel.

I know the following verse was quoted earlier in this thread but let us not forget that even the apostles questioned why Jesus always spoke in parables;

Mat 13:10 And the disciples came, and said unto him, Why speakest thou unto them in parables?

Mat 13:11 He answered and said unto them, Because it is given unto you to know the mysteries(sacred secrets)of the kingdom of heaven, but to them it is not given.

This is His way.

Peace to you,

RM

*Although many Bible versions render the Greek word musterion as "mystery," that is not a good translation. In fact, "mystery" is a transliteration of the word musterion, not a translation of it. "Transliteration" is when the letters of a word in one language are brought across into another language. The prefix "trans" means "across," and the Latin littera means "letter." Thus, transliteration is literally "bringing across the letters." In contrast, "translation" is bringing the meaning of a word in one language across into another language. If we are going to have the meaning of the Greek brought into English, we must translate, not transliterate.

The English word "mystery" means something that is incomprehensible, beyond understanding, unknowable. Thus it is common in religious circles to speak of things as "mysteries" because they cannot be understood. In contrast, a "secret" is something that is known by someone but unknown by others. A surprise birthday party is a "secret" to the person having the birthday, but known by those who will attend it. The Greek word musterion does not mean "mystery," it means "sacred secret," that is, a secret in the sacred or spiritual realm that must be made known by God. That musterion refers to a secret, and not to our standard meaning of "mystery," is well documented by Greek scholars.

Rotherham's uses the term sacred secrets in place of mystery/mysteries, and before you ask "What about Mystery Babylon?" They render Revelation 17:5 as;

Rev 17:5 And upon her forehead a name written, a secret: Babylon the great, the Mother of the abominations of the earth.

"If UR were THETruth of the Bible, then wouldn't it be plain(er) to everybody?"

UR is what I classify as a secondary doctrine, as any eschatological doctrine is a secondary doctrine. God wrote the Bible to instruct the living. The Great Commission is for the living and gets a higher priority in the Bible compared to the Gospel in hell.

"If UR were THETruth of the Bible, then wouldn't it be plain(er) to everybody?"

UR is what I classify as a secondary doctrine, as any eschatological doctrine is a secondary doctrine. God wrote the Bible to instruct the living. The Great Commission is for the living and gets a higher priority in the Bible compared to the Gospel in hell.

I genuinely do agree with the exception of those cases where the ET doctrine has been taken to an extreme and has caused harm. Then this is the necessary Penicillin.

its an interesting topic, maybe for the first christians, knowing aionon doesnt mean endless (and kolasis maybe correction) + believing in immortal soul though it is not biblical + Paul saying God is the savior of all people it might me quite plain for them.

maybe, if it had been too plain, the church might erase these verses from the bible, another interesting thought is, if there werent verses in the bible that could be interpreted as hell, the church might have put the apocrypha in the bible that obviously teach hell, such as 2. Esdras, Book of Enoch

maybe it is plain for the people that are not indoctrinated, when i first saw the comparision of revelation 21/22 and 1. corinthians 15 i thought, corinthians goes beyond the revelation

in the time of the reformation, as soon as the common people had bibles, some of the german anabaptists believed in universalism