I’ve been reading my Israel Assault on Hama thread, as well as some similar such topics on this forum. What I’ve seen is a lot of people saying that Israel has a right to kill these people and a lot more people saying that Israel doesn’t have the right to defend itself. I see people posting terrible pictures of Palestinian victims to cover up for their lack of basis in the argument.

I see a lot of emotion in the thread. People are angry that there are so many casualties. Israel originally showed an immense measure of care for civilian lives. They evacuated Gazans. They escorted denizens of Gaza with foreign passports back to their respective nations. They allowed the United Nations to provide humanitarian support and construct shelters for civilians. They dropped flyers to warn civilians of incoming air strikes. The released sound bombs to frighten away crowds. They made phone calls, sent e-mails and texts, telling people to leave before an attack was made.

Since then they’ve isolated two immensely populated cities. They’re no longer targeting security facilities but rather bombing homes in residential neighbor hoods. Hundreds of Palestinians have been killed. About two fifths of these are woman and children. Roughly one third of the fatalities were civilians. Thousands more have injured. An additional thirteen thousand have been forced out of their homes.

Although Israel has shipped supplies into certain Palestinian areas their invasion has largely isolated human beings and denied them access to basic needs. The wall they’ve constructed to fortify their borders against terrorist attacks already blockaded rivers and made transporting goods difficult.

Normally I could look at that with a fairly clinical perspective and say, ‘that’s war.’ Gaza initiated this war and now they’re paying for it. To me when a Hama talks about how they’re being slaughtered I have to laugh. Hamas has brought this on themselves and on Palestine.

Israel is the bigger kid who actually knows how to fight effectively on this play ground. Hamas is a smaller kid with a bad attitude. The smaller kid thinks that because he’s little it’s wrong for Israel to hit him. So, he punches Israel in the nose. Israel says stop. He does it again. Israel beats the hell out of him. He then tells the teacher-the UN-that Israel is bullying him.

What makes me sick about this is that Hamas did not get where it was democratically. Hamas originally ceased power of Gaza through a coup. The Palestinian people don’t want Hamas and they don’t want a war.

Their lives have become miserable because of Hamas-an organization that uses them as human shields. When I say human shields I mean this literally and metaphorically:

Hama has also made a mockery out of Islamic places of worship. They’ve used mosques to fire at Israeli soldiers and to store weaponry. (Ever sense I took a theology class that discussed Islamic belief, culture, and history I've been a major activist for Islamic rights. People are unfairly biased against a peaceful religion, and THIS is why.)

Those UN shelters established in Gaza? Those schools people are fleeing to for the hopes of ONE place where they can sleep without fear of being blown up? Hama has turned those into a war zone too. The UN denied that the school was being used to shell Israeli troops with mortar:

In addition the militants were seen using the shelter by both Israeli and Palestinians. The Palestinian people are not very fond of Israel, why would they lie for them? The United Nations does not want to admit that it has failed to properly regulate its facilities.

Can we trust the UN over the video tape and the eye-witnesses? UN intelligene once told America that Iraq had WMDs. We now know that this is not true.

People say that Hamas isn’t a terrorist group? Yet they order their militants-men with families, wives and children-to suicide launch suicide bombing missions on Israel:

Hamas obviously doesn’t care about Gaza or Palestine. They’ve started a war they cannot win. They have done this in pursuit of their own personal political agendas. They are not motivated with the hopes of making things right for Palestine but by hatred and bigotry. Their goal is not peace through war but peace through genocide. Anybody, in this case the Jews, who oppose them must be ‘purged’ from the land. They’re willing to sacrifice Palestinians if it means taking some Jews with them.

Is this what Palestinian life is worth? Politics and racism? Silly dreams of genocide? Unreasonable aspirations? Suicide bombers and human shields? Blatant terrorism?

Palestinians know they cannot defeat Israel. They know Hamas started this war and are not happy about it:

Palestine does not want Hamas in control. They do not want this war. They do not want to live in fear, to be cornered like rats, and bombed. They do not want Fatah and Hama fighting each other and Israel. They do not want Hama using their mosques, cities, homes, bodies, families, wives, children-as shields.

They want this war to be over. They want to live in peace. They want to go on with their lives. This cannot happen as long as Hamas exists. Hamas has announced that Jews and Americans are evil. That their goal is to destroy Jews. That they have no intention of attaining peace. They’ve announce that they will not honor negotiations and cease fires, that they will liberate with the riffle!

“Before we let Israel die, we must defeat and humiliate it!” -Khaled Masnal, Hamas political leader

So, that is why I support Israel and want the war to finish. I want a victor to be clear. I don't want Palestine defeated, I want Hamas defeated. I'm for a war on Hamas, not Palestine. I think that if Western powers insist on getting involved then they should do so by rooting out Hamas and forcing them away from civilian population centers. What are your thoughts?

I don't agree with Israel's actions, but it is understandable seeing that Hamas did the same thing to them.. Hamas attacked Israel couple of times and Israel just took it in..

I don't believe that bombing is going to solve anything though.. But i have heard that Israel does phone up the civilians in the Gaza strip and warn them.. They are not targetting civilians but Hamas members.. They just seem to deliberately put themselves around civilians and are disguised as them.. That's why casualty is high.. Israel has a target but they seem to take innocent lives with them.. If Hamas really cared about their people, for once over themselves, they would not have done this. People will only defend Hamas if they are Muslim or if they don't understand their history.

Israel did want a ceasefire before and tried and tried but Hamas didn't want anything.. So this is her reaction.. To bomb them all out of Gaza and to win..

As soon as Hamas does something to Israel they are happy with it.. But when Israel strikes back ten-fold, they cry war, war and our children or children..

Both sides have to stop. However, you've put up a great argument.. It's very factual. And that is the actual truth! I just hope people take the time to read it.

Israel lies. They say the escort them, but a woman was brought on the news from Gaza and she said her sons, their wives and kids were all put into one has and then killed. They're just hiding behind being the victims, Hamas are not the victims and israel are not the victims eaither... the civilians are... all of them from both sides.

Don't believe any of the bullshit coming from the news, youtube or whatever, no ones innocent.

Israel lies. They say the escort them, but a woman was brought on the news from Gaza and she said her sons, their wives and kids were all put into one has and then killed. They're just hiding behind being the victims, Hamas are not the victims and israel are not the victims eaither... the civilians are... all of them from both sides.

Don't believe any of the bullshit coming from the news, youtube or whatever, no ones innocent.

Did you even read my entire post, or did you just get to that paragraph? I never said Israel was the good guy or that Israel was innocent. I said that Israel is the best chance Gaza has. Actually, I expressed my disdain for Israel. Anyway, that’s a load of crap. I want to see a source.

Israel is spreading (before bombarding) letters to palastinians to leave their homes before bombarding,but plaese,when they will go to protect themselves,
The problem isn't being emotionnal & isn't that Hamas is dangerous for palastianians,(hamas entered the elections & won democratically ,hamas expressed its accepation to all the agrements & showed its will to negoatiate with israel,but israel refused completely to negotiate & started to divide palastinains:A little side civil war between hamas & fath started,isreal supported fath -that was a premier-against hamas,hamas made the coup d'etat in Gaza & then israel,cutted supplies & electricity,hamas threw rockets,& the end of the story is known)
Palastine is totally dependent on Israeli's economics,we know that,& we know that Palastine is living by israeli's help that isreal considred a way to control the area,ISRAEL didn't give palastine a chance to have even a little independence,& when RAbin(rabin isn't a saint like some people try to show him,he's the one with the brilliant idea of breacking the children bone' arms during the first Intifada in 1988,he's a military leader ,he only relised that the politics of occupation is harming israel more than protecting it so,he decided with Arafat to give a sort of "local governence" to palastinians but those will stay under Israeli control,i must say it still unfair but good as a start,especially that Israel isn't generous at all,unfortuanlty Rabin was killed & Nataniyahoo refused to sign & here we are),Israel thinks of palastinians as prisonners & trust me,if they have a small chance to erase palastinians,they will do it without remorse!
Before accusing palastinians to be a bunch of ungreatfull people who follow terrorist groups & start wars like that,see what push them to established mouveument like Hamas & islamic jihad,see what makes them not caring about their lives(they have nothing to lose anymore)& look who's behind this!
No one is happy with this war,not even Hamas,people do not want a war,but they have to go through because Israel doesn't give them other choices!
The victim here is the palastinians & not Israel or Hamas,i even don't think of israeli as victims because they have homes & food & electricity & can go to hospital if injured,but palastinians,they have nothing,really nothing!
Defending Israel is just absurd,how compare a nuclear power by few militants???& then say Isreal is victim?do u really belive in this?
Anyway,David Ben Gorion said it:"How can they(palastinians) like us ?all what they witness is us taking their homes & lands!",& he was right!
Israel wanting to help palastinains,that's a premier & hard to beleive!
I can't post more on this topic,i'm taking exams on Monday,but i'll be back soon & wish ,until that time,this insane war will stop & some people will get to know more the conflit from all its sides,u're right about one thing:We should put our emotions on side & search,think deeper,then,we will see know who's the victim !

lol cant even take this thread seriously as much aid israel gets from the west and these programs, "help send a jewish family back to Israel" is laughable at best so to keep the mood up. Lets all support Israel, ignore palestine conditions, keep funding them weapons, let them keep stealing lands, let them keep ignoring International law. Just tell me where to sign up and they will have all my support.

"Although Israel has shipped supplies into certain Palestinian areas their invasion has largely isolated human beings and denied them access to basic needs. The wall they’ve constructed to fortify their borders against terrorist attacks already blockaded rivers and made transporting goods difficult.

Normally I could look at that with a fairly clinical perspective and say, ‘that’s war.’ Gaza initiated this war and now they’re paying for it. To me when a Hama talks about how they’re being slaughtered I have to laugh. Hamas has brought this on themselves and on Palestine."

See now this is where it gets stupid. Anybody without half the pro-israel shit in your brain would clearly see that....

Maybe you should clinically remove stupidity from your brain. Maybe then you'll be able to make a statement without contradicting yourself.

Israel is the bigger kid who actually knows how to fight effectively on this play ground. Hamas is a smaller kid with a bad attitude. The smaller kid thinks that because he’s little it’s wrong for Israel to hit him. So, he punches Israel in the nose. Israel says stop. He does it again. Israel beats the hell out of him. He then tells the teacher-the UN-that Israel is bullying him.

more stupid shit. you should compare the Israel-Palestinian conflict to anything better than your childhood story, friend.

get the fact straight. it was the hundred thousands of Palestinian people that was evicted for the creation of the state of Israel back in the 30. And i'm not even sure if the Palestinian was compensated for that loss. They have every damn right to play the role of victims here.

What kind of help do you really want us to do?
- give sympathy/empathy
- fight their fights
- deploy missiles
- write letters to higher authorities and inform them of what we think
- acknowledge that real bad things are happening overseas
- send our top medical resources to aid them
- evacuate every single civilians to a proper, safe place
- send food and clothing

The problem isn't being emotionnal & isn't that Hamas is dangerous for palastianians,(hamas entered the elections & won democratically ,hamas expressed its accepation to all the agrements & showed its will to negoatiate with israel,but israel refused completely to negotiate & started to divide palastinains:A little side civil war between hamas & fath started,isreal supported fath -that was a premier-against hamas,hamas made the coup d'etat in Gaza & then israel,cutted supplies & electricity,hamas threw rockets,& the end of the story is known)

First I would like to say that I'd really like to have an intelligent discussion with you. You seem to have some legit opinions and unlike some of these other people aren't pulling the "your stupid," or "I'm too good to take this serious," card to cover up for their lack of arguement. You seem to actually read my post and take the time to write a reasonably lengthed post.

However, I have some trouble understanding you. I'm not sure if English is your second language but please use a spell check progrom. Also, please indent paragraphs to seperate text.

Anyway, your information here is wrong on several notes:

Hamas gained power democratically?

In June 2007 Hamas launched a coup against Fatah rule in Gaza Strip and ceased power through military force. Hamas is a fascistic faction like Fatah. Fascism is the ideology of using force to attain the greater good. A left wing dictatorship is communism. A right wing dictatorship is a military dictatorship. This is what we call Fascism. Hamas has already announced that it is a fascistic and theocratic faction. In other words they’ve openly admitted that they intend to keep their rule in Gaza-attained through a military uprising, a coup-by force if necessary.

Gaza did not willingly submit to Hamas. Hamas has gained a wave of support elsewhere in Palestine through ‘charities,’ that essentially amounted to bribery. In return for their support starving communities were given food and water. You can look it up yourself and you will see that the denizens of Gaza do not like, trust, or support Hamas.

Fatah had power of Gaza. Hamas took it through a coup-not an election.

Hamas Agreed to Negotiate?

Hamas agreed to consider a temporary cease fire but announced that it has no ultimate goal of ceasing its attacks on Israel. In other words, they agreed to allow Israel to back off and give them time to reorganize their numbers and then continue missile fire.

Israel Refused to Negotiate Completely?

This is actually partially true. Neither side was completely willing to compromise with the extreme demands of the other side.

Some demands Israel refused Hamas:

-Israel tear down walls

-Israel return cities Hamas considers Palestinian such as Acre

-UN officials monitor Israeli activity but not Hamas activity.

Some demands Hamas refused Israel:

-Hamas destroys tunnels used for smuggling weapons.

-Hamas cease firing missiles into Israel.

-Hamas allow UN officials to monitor their activity and enforce the cease fire.

Hamas seeks peace?

The Hamas politicians have continuously expressed that they have no intention of a lasting peace. The Hamas Charter itself-their ‘Constitution,’-cites out of text Surah from the Qur’an to tell Muslims that they are obliged to kill Jews. From an Islamic perspective this is clearly absurd. However, Hamas by its own Charter cannot and will not ever pursue real peace with Israel. They are obliged to destroy it.

So long as they exist they will try to do so. Israel will always retaliate. Israel is also a more effective war machine which means the Palestinians will continue to die as long as Hamas exists.

Hamas wanting to protect their persecuted people?

Hamas is a theocratic institution, not a nationalistic one. In other words their pursuit is religious absolutism and not liberation. Liberation is a propaganda issue. Again theocratic institute worries about its religion. Nationalistic institute worries about its people. Both are dangerous, but Fatah can actually protect its people-that is! Of course, if Hamas is destroyed.