You may or may not know, for example, the Nvidia hardware in the XBox was tested using OpenGL but switched to DirectX for all-too-familiar reasons. The Xbox will remain a thoroughly closed abomination owned by the devil for all time.

What I find humourous about that statement, Prince, is that all three of the current consoles are "thoroughly closed abomination owned by the devil for all time". What would really be nice is if something like the Indema (Was that was it was called?) could ever get off the drawing board and into peoples homes. Then maybe we could get something running on them.

What I find humourous about that statement, Prince, is that all three of the current consoles are "thoroughly closed abomination owned by the devil for all time". What would really be nice is if something like the Indema (Was that was it was called?) could ever get off the drawing board and into peoples homes. Then maybe we could get something running on them.

]...except that I came to the conclusion that Sony-san does not want this to happen to PS it would devalue the whole product by diluting its exclusivity. How do you control franchise licensing for a Java title? How is Sony-san going to extract his yen from Alien Flux?

The conclusion we came to (and again, more recently in an interview with Java Developers Journal) runs something like this:

Me: Sony don't need a JVM in reality because it loosens their grip on the PS franchise.

JeffK: Oh no it doesn't

there are issues of both Sun and Sony confidentaility here I assume you already understand.

Given that i can tell you the following:

(1) There have been issues between Sun and Sony about a PS2 port.

(2) Opening the platform is NOT one of them. We presented them with a number of solutions to this problem ranging from the VM being destributed as licensed middleware to them actually owning the VM and encrypting the class files with a private key.

The important thing is that I am convinced thatw e convinced them that this wont open the box. (And any hopes that we would were wrong to begin with.)

(3) There *are* some technical issues I cannot discuss without violating my Sony NDA. They are tough but i believe solvable in the end. There are business issues which the business guys are workign on. The business relationship is actually pretty strong, as anyone who was at the third day of the game summit might surmise from the 8 PS2s we had playing games (just for fun.)

We still have not given up hope here and I'd encourage you not to either, but I'd also quickly say that at this stage I can't *promise* what will show up when, if ever.

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The way forward out of this corporate deadlock can only come from a 3rd party and selling their JVM to developers already licensed to produce Playstation games. The consumer need never know or care about Java. It's not exactly a winning situation for Sun but somebody'll make some money out of it.

The way forward out of this corporate deadlock can only come from a 3rd party and selling their JVM to developers already licensed to produce Playstation games. The consumer need never know or care about Java. It's not exactly a winning situation for Sun but somebody'll make some money out of it.

Cas

Absolutes are never absolutely right Cas. You know that

Thats one solution. Its not a solution I can have any impact on, so I'm concentrating my efforts on the ones where I can.

JK

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I'd take that one as well. Considering the apparent jump in learning curve from std. console to next-gen console, and assuming the jump to the next-next-gen consoles may be even higher, it seems logical that Sony might look at development platforms that hide some of that complexity. Java seems an obvious choice.

I'm confident enough to put 5 down on Java appearing on the PS3.... ;-)

Well, Sony have flat-out stated that they're making the PS3 even more difficult to program than the PS2, just to raise the bar. The idea is that with companies being forced to use better programmers or get out of the market, the game quality will improve. With that in mind, they should avoid Java entirely as it opens up the field a lot more than they'd like.

I personally don't see the connection between more proficient programmers and better games, and don't think such a strategy will actually pay off for Sony. But time will tell.

I'll take five on "Sony(Games) are too busy designing PSP and PS3 to care much about Java - why do they care what the games are written in anyway?"

Well, Sony have flat-out stated that they're making the PS3 even more difficult to program than the PS2, just to raise the bar.

I'd really like to see a reliable quote on that. Everyone I know on that side of the coin is very concerned about supporting the developers so they get product out the door, not making it harder for them and being a weakly supported platform.

You know, I'll have to take that comment back. I'm *sure* I read it somewhere (stated as an official quote), but I can't seem to find it now. In the absence of any evidence, I take it all back. Apart from my wager, that still holds!

I guess it's the kind of thing that can easily happen with what they're doing. There's been so many conflicting reports about the PS3, when it'll be shipped, whether it'll use Cell or not ("not" at last count - that's been slipped to PS4)...

I'd like to put 5 on "Sony doesn't see Java as a viable contender and they are doing just fine as the way things are now, thank you".

What are the odds? I think I want to cover that one

JK

Ooops, sorry! I originally included it, but thought better of risking a figure .

5-1: since Sony have quite a history of innovation (recall the PS's birth: a collaboration with Nintendo, which Nintendo pulled out of, and Sony eventually went ahead with anyway), and are quite willing to do unusual things to win a market-share battle (note: MS have a tendency to do "the same old things" instead). Also, Sony are painfully aware that PlayStation == Sony's saviour, and that they conquered a new market through fundamentally changing the audience (altering the demographic of games players, from teenagers to wealthy trendy 20/30-somethings).

So, I reckon there's a fairly good chance of it.

PS Warning for the unwary: I don't have to pay out on this until Sony goes bankrupt, because until then, they might *at any time* bring out a JVM

But they miss out on any greater technical detail, as memory is going to be vitally important if you are expecting anything other than crappy MIDlets to run on it.

The point being is that its got to be running on some OS for internet connection, and as most likely Linux would be chosen (cant see Windows CE some how).

This also highlights another problem, speed, the CPU in the PS2 runs at 294Mhz and is a RISC processor, with 8K data cache its going to be hard on Java.

But I couldn't find the memory bus speed, or the width of the data bus (32,64, 128 bits), used to know it but have forgotten. It also uses dreaded RD-Ram (Rimbus anyone? Thought not), Which is fine for bandwidth but has very poor latency. These are more important.

Make it run, make it run correctly, make it run fast -- in that order!

That's true and like it should be.However, unfortunately, my experience from IT industry is that due to deadlines and a lot of other political reasons the last step oftenly "dies", sometimes the second step too.Probably this is why so many games aren't fully playable until the 10th patch. :-|

Ok, lucky those at Unreal. When they've been asked by their puplisher (a French one?), when the game is ready, their lead developer answered: "It's finished when we're done." :-)

I'd really like to see a reliable quote on that. Everyone I know on that side of the coin is very concerned about supporting the developers so they get product out the door, not making it harder for them and being a weakly supported platform.

Smaller developer studios usually can't and won't afford to pay a sum of 25000 $ (roughly 25000 ¤) for just an official PS2 development kit. Further AFAIK they'll have to let review an entirely finished level of their game at Sony.

So I think it's correct to think that the big console companies like Sony, Nintendo and Microsoft (just three, isn't it?) don't want to have smaller development studios to make games for their consoles. It's a nearly closed market, where only the big game companies are allowed to play (and these are very few).

When I look at some smart PC games coming from (very!) small developer studios, I'd say you should not just allow big companies to produce games. For example Roller Coaster Tycoon has been and still is a top seller for years now. It's been done by Bravehearts: one developer, one artist, one musician, wow. :-)(I better won't mention that Chris (Sawyer) didn't do it in Java, but in 80x86 assembler.)

Sony and Microsoft specifically have had specific programs for smaller developers, but they do require some money up front. The major publishers have always considered that both a deterrent to people who weren't serious and a way to defray the cost of any hardware and support they'd provide. Of the two, Microsoft has had the best/cheapest/most accessible program and it actually acted as a fast track for a lot of XBox developers who were new to the business.

Smaller developer studios usually can't and won't afford to pay a sum of 25000 $ (roughly 25000 ¤) for just an official PS2 development kit. Further AFAIK they'll have to let review an entirely finished level of their game at Sony.

So I think it's correct to think that the big console companies like Sony, Nintendo and Microsoft (just three, isn't it?) don't want to have smaller development studios to make games for their consoles.

Your cause and effect here are linekd pretty weakly.

Consoles are sold at a loss.

One of the first profit streams the makers see are the dev kits. Thats why they are so expensive, the makers still have a ton of development costs to pay off on the console itself and they wont pay them off selling consoles. Theya re spreading the cost of creating the market out aross al lthose who want access to the market.

(Eventually lower cost PSONE dev alternatvies came out, I'm sure eventually the same will be true for PS2.)

To assume that this is some great conspiracy designed to specifically thut out small developers though is bordering on the diagnosably paranoid.

Many small developers in fact DO develop for these consoles. They do so by developign under contract to larger studios who can affords to front the money for the dev kits. (When I was at Crystal Dynamics we released a number of games that were done this way.)

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I was talking to BongPig of PomPom about their Xbox port, and it seems they haven't had to pay a penny to get the dev kit - M$ UK just took one look at their game and said, "Cool, that'd be great on XBox, here's the stuff you need".

So it looks like M$ have figured out that the side effect of excluding smaller developers is something else they could absorb. And of course, they're right - it's very, very foolish charging developers to work on your platform. And M$ have known this for years.

Exactly.Maybe I'm missing something here, but the argument that Sony doesn't want to exclude small dev studios but their 1st profit streams are dev kits with huge price tags puzzles me. It seems so short sighted.

Exactly.Maybe I'm missing something here, but the argument that Sony doesn't want to exclude small dev studios but their 1st profit streams are dev kits with huge price tags puzzles me. It seems so short sighted.

Its the early adopter thing, just liek any other consumer device.,

Early adopters pay a premium to help pay off dev costs.

Its just that in consoles the early adopters are developers. Its far better in consoles to milk the early developers and get a lot of consoles out quickly then milk the early customers and screw up your launch.

Its really all very staightforward if you understand anything about consumer electronics marketing.

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So a dev kit is your typical 'consumer device'? :-/I guess you have to be very confident that all the big game developers establish your console soon enough after launch. If I were a multimillion company like sony having stiff competition from MS and Nintendo, I'd see a lower price tag for the dev kit as a good investment for having more games on shelves early.But then again I know nothing about consumer electronics marketing.

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