Thank you all for the advice. But the truth is I don't really know how to flirt in a way that I won't get friend zoned. Cause i don't want to look like a jerk or asshole, i have to much respect for women and am a big softie. My flirting is complementing, i really don't know what else to do.

Flirting is just talking. It's showing an interest in someone else. It's not difficult, but it does take practice.It should never be derogatory. It should feel natural. Except maybe for someone that's shy, but even I overcame that. ;)Keep trying!

Flirting is just talking. It's showing an interest in someone else. It's not difficult, but it does take practice.It should never be derogatory. It should feel natural. Except maybe for someone that's shy, but even I overcame that. ;)Keep trying!

One thing that might help in talking to lasses is being positive. Ha ha, there's me, saying positivity stuff! I'm a real Eeyore, but the difference is, I know it.

Take a look back through your blogs on here. Overall, what is the lasting impression that you get from them? Read them at face value, as if they were my blogs on my profile. How do they make you feel? What do they say about me as a person? Could you seek to change any of those statements, for better or worse? Do you think that I would be a person with whom you could find instant amusement and shared happiness?

Blogs often tend to be overthought, or spur of the moment. But they all reflect a part of our inner self. Looking back at our history and statements is sometimes a good way to find out what sort of impression we give people, or how they might read us.

As soon as I notice myself moaning (not in the fun way) about the state of my inner being, where anybody and everybody can read it (sadly, I do it all the time), I know I have to stop and take positive action.

I struggle with an illness that means I sometimes have to work harder than others with certain things. But that means that I have had to look at myself and my health. When I am a little better at times, I have learned which things I can do to help me feel better in myself (walking, fishing, photography). When I am very ill, I retreat from people.

But when I am a bit better, I am prone to moan about things, bemoan my physical form, vocally hate my existence, circumstances and relationships. People scare me, annoy me, hurt me, and don't like me. I cannot see that other people love me, care for me, enjoy spending time with me, and sometimes even like me. So when I blog things that go against my friends telling me I'm beautiful in their eyes, in various ways, I am calling them liars.

Sometimes, an issue is not about getting people to fancy us and want to be with us. Sometimes, it's about learning to look at how we show which parts of ourselves. I don't mean hide the pain, loneliness and frustration. I mean look at and share the better parts of ourselves in not just our words, but our attitudes too. Because our attitude to life really does come across. This in itself can have an enormous impact on how others see us.

I try to be kind, caring and compassionate to people generally (with a few exceptions), and I see beauty very differently to how most of the world does. But if I flip that round, can I apply those thoughts and beliefs to myself? I cannot. The poorly part of my brain doesn't allow it. But the healthy part of my brain can recognise that.

It doesn't matter how you try to behave or flirt or treat women, in my opinion. If your attitude is similar to mine, then that will come across in your very atmosphere. You can be the most wonderful man in the world, but if most of what you display is a poor ol' me mentality, then that will have an effect on your "aura", even unconciously.

What makes you feel good? What do you enjoy? What makes you want to share the fun in your life? What is great about the person that you are? If you can begin to find those things, it will come across in your words and personality. As I said before, try to stop worrying about the reactions of other people to you. Try to think about the effects of yourself on them. And the first way to do that is to honestly look at yourself from outside.

I'm not saying that this is easy; far from it. But perhaps this might be a key to you finding some confidence in currently being single, and later, confidence in sharing a growing relationship with somebody.

I hope you don't think I am being harsh. I am speaking from my own point of view, in a similar situation.

Take a look back through your blogs on here. Overall, what is the lasting impression that you get from them? Read them at face value, as if they were my blogs on my profile. How do they make you feel? What do they say about me as a person? Could you seek to change any of those statements, for better or worse? Do you think that I would be a person with whom you could find instant amusement and shared happiness?

Blogs often tend to be overthought, or spur of the moment. But they all reflect a part of our inner self. Looking back at our history and statements is sometimes a good way to find out what sort of impression we give people, or how they might read us.

As soon as I notice myself moaning (not in the fun way) about the state of my inner being, where anybody and everybody can read it (sadly, I do it all the time), I know I have to stop and take positive action.

Sometimes, an issue is not about getting people to fancy us and want to be with us. Sometimes, it's about learning to look at how we show which parts of ourselves. don't mean hide the pain, loneliness and frustration. I mean look at and share the better parts of ourselves in not just our words, but our attitudes too. Because our attitude to life really does come across. This in itself can have an enormous impact on how others see us.

It doesn't matter how you try to behave or flirt or treat women, in my opinion. If your attitude is similar to mine, then that will come across in your very atmosphere. You can be the most wonderful man in the world, but if most of what you display is a poor ol' me mentality, then that will have an effect on your "aura", even unconciously.

What makes you feel good? What do you enjoy? What makes you want to share the fun in your life? What is great about the person that you are? If you can begin to find those things, it will come across in your words and personality. As I said before, try to stop worrying about the reactions of other people to you. Try to think about the effects of yourself on them. And the first way to do that is to honestly look at yourself from outside.

I'm not saying that this is easy; far from it. But perhaps this might be a key to you finding some confidence in currently being single, and later, confidence in sharing a growing relationship with somebody.

I really hesitated posting here, because I don't know you well, but you've been sweet the few times we've spoken. However, I think Shy hit the nail on the head with her post.

To be perfectly blunt, Jay, you have a chicken little air about you, and the "sky is falling" in almost every one of your blogs. As Shy posted, look back through your blogs and read them out loud. Would you want to get involved with this guy whose life is constantly "falling apart?" Between that and your "goodbye cruel Lush" blogs, because your friends here are disappointing you, it makes people run in the other direction. You come across as needy, whiny, desperate, and attention mongering. (I did say I was going to be blunt, right)

I will just assume this is the same vibe you give off in real life and it has a lot more to do with your inability to attract women more than your weight, receding hair line, and acne.

I hope you got some answers to your questions, Jay. Sorry if they're not the answers you wanted. Good luck!

I think CurlyGirly has pretty much summed up what I was going to say. It is how you feel about yourself and your self-esteem issues. There are lots of people on here who I chat to and I dont have a clue how they look, but they have such incredible personalities. I think it is about finding that common ground with someone. Attempting to make them laugh and having fun. I often here things such as, "No one wants to chat to me." "I'm bored." This doesn't really want to make someone jump into chat with them. Your blog updates reflect this kind of mood. I know you will probably be referring to the struggles of real life. But it is about changing your mindset and thinking you are wonderful! So what if others dont agree, let them get on with their own lives. Have you ever tried anything such as self-help books or even apps on your iphone? I have briefly chatted with you before and you seem to be a sweet guy. I wish you the best and hope to find what you are looking for.

I am sick and tired of the "stick to your own league" attitude that I often see on these sorts of threads. It's rubbing salt on the gaping wound. Thanks so much for that reminder. Sadly, I think the only people who don't care about what a person looks like are the ugly, desperate ones like me. And we're desperate, so what do we know?!

Fucking hate that mentality.

I don't have to guess quite a few things about you Shylass. Why? Because you just lay it all out on the line for the world to see. And that's admirable. You tell us on your Lush profile that you're not just anti-social, but very much that way, while also being very shy & extremely inexperienced.

My guess is... your lack of experience covers a robust range of experiences which most of us really only do experience by growing older and slowly building up those new experiences until we acquire a broad band of true experience.

I was JUST LIKE YOU when I was in my teens and early twenties... Just like you. Most all of us were during that timeframe. That's not a mentality, that's a reality. You don't care for it to the point of you detesting it. I get that.

Doesn't change how things are.

And I wasn't typing that comment to rub any salt in anyone's imaginary wounds. If you have those wounds, they are yours to deal with and heal. Not mine, nor anyone else's except perhaps the asshats who you have experienced who tried to make you feel less than they themselves feel.

The reality of that situation is that you've been dealing with fcktarded asshats - don't be one and you're already light years ahead of them... and their miserable lives.

Or remain very anti-social, standoffish and shy. That's working so well for you so far, huh? And that's not meant to be mean towards you either - but towards anyone who is by their own admittance - everything you have described yourself in your own words - to currently be.

Do I think I have the looks or the overall attractiveness of George Clooney, Harrison Ford, Brad Pitt, Tom Cruise (men who are all except for Ford) in my general age range...?

Fuck no...I'm not living in that kind of fantasy world and I never have. There are literally hundreds of thousands of women in this world who are way the fuck outta my league. They wouldn't look at me once, let alone twice and certainly I would be surprised (dare I say stunned - if someone I thought was out of my league - winking at me and flirting with me even moderately).

I'd know how to respond to that situation though - because I'm not even the least bit anti-social, and I have gobs of experience (not with that situation) but with the flirting thing and the actually getting fucking laid part of the equation (then the dealing with women in ongoing friendly - and sexual relationships of all manner).

That's experience I have (which people younger than me currently don't enjoy)...and which I was once exceptionally fucking ignorant of - and hence, lacking confidence or even having the foggiest guesstimation of how to act myself.

Difference between you and me is ... I know it and have accepted it all my life.

Fuck no...I'm not living in that kind of fantasy world and I never have. There are literally hundreds of thousands of women in this world who are way the fuck outta my league. They wouldn't look at me once, let alone twice and certainly I would be surprised (dare I say stunned - if someone I thought was out of my league - winking at me and flirting with me even moderately).

Confidence is generally described as a state of being certain either that a hypothesis or prediction is correct or that a chosen course of action is the best or most effective. Self-confidence is having confidence in oneself. Arrogance or hubris in this comparison, is having unmerited confidence—believing something or someone is capable or correct when they are not. Overconfidence or presumptuousness is excessive belief in someone (or something) succeeding, without any regard for failure. Confidence can be a self-fulfilling prophecy as those without it may fail or not try because they lack it and those with it may succeed because they have it rather than because of an innate ability.

Being arrogant or self-important is a definite turnoff.

Self-Confidence is required here ....

Quote:

Self-confidence does not necessarily imply 'self-belief' or a belief in one's ability to succeed. For instance, one may be inept at a particular sport or activity, but remain 'confident' in one's demeanor, simply because one does not place a great deal of emphasis on the outcome of the activity. When one does not dwell on negative consequences one can be more 'self-confident' because one is worrying far less about failure or the disapproval of others following potential failure. One is then more likely to focus on the actual situation which means that enjoyment and success in that situation is also more probable. Belief in one's abilities to perform an activity comes through successful experience and may add to, or consolidate, a general sense of self-confidence.

Self-confidence is gained with the accumulation of little goals .... for example, being able to smile at a woman (any woman) ... and multiplying the amount of times you do that .... making it second nature. Being able to "naturally" say, "great day today" to the female stranger at the coffee shop, and not spilling your drink or blushing. She'll look at you with ... nice!

This is why men and women will never understand one another. You guys don't think like we do.If you were friend zoned... You would almost certainly remain there.Either you're totally bullshitting us on scoring with 5 women that would be considered friends or you've been encouraging them all along without realizing it. Which would NOT put you in the dreaded friend zone. At least in their eyes.By the way... We call them groupies.

Yanno, I'm 53 years old and I've been fucking since I was (too young to post here) and really enjoying sex since I was about 24 or 25 yrs old.

And I have never made friends with a woman - and then later, somewhere down the road... started bonking with her.

Never.

It is always the other way around with me. A boatload of women who I've enjoyed sex with - have become friends of mine. As have more than a few of my exes who either dumped me or I dumped (in an amicable manner) Now we broke up friendly, remained friendly to each other for a few months to a few years then they got a new beau or I got reattached to someone else ...and we drifted apart.

To me, that's the natural way of things.

Not fucking my friends who happen to be women.

I wouldn't even know how to begin to try to pull that kind of thing off. Seems creepy or desperate (but again, that's just what it seems like to me).

I guess, don't knock it til ya try it?Obscenity is the last refuge of an inarticulate motherfucker.

sometimes it's as simple as this - others see you as you see yourself. yeah, we all have our insecurities, our shynesses, our fears to overcome. it's hard! go with your strengths, tho. most of what i post here is funny silly stuff - that's my strength - i'm funny and i'm silly - i recognize that and so that's the side of me i put out there, either in the forums or when i was dating. i wasn't the sex siren, i was always the cute girl. you really need to figure out who you are - and yeah, the bitter, angry bit won't get you dates, nor will the friendzone ploy - pay attention to what Doll said in regards to that. i'm not going to say that the whole out of your league thing is something you should pretend does or doesn't exist - it is very real - it's not just a physical thing, tho - charisma, personality, and charm go a long ways sometimes - still, first impressions also matter, and girls, like guys, are going to notice the hot people first - it's just the way it is - you walk into a room, you notice Bradly Cooper before you notice Seth Rogan.

sometimes it's as simple as this - others see you as you see yourself. yeah, we all have our insecurities, our shynesses, our fears to overcome. it's hard! go with your strengths, tho. most of what i post here is funny silly stuff - that's my strength - i'm funny and i'm silly - i recognize that and so that's the side of me i put out there, either in the forums or when i was dating. i wasn't the sex siren, i was always the cute girl. you really need to figure out who you are - and yeah, the bitter, angry bit won't get you dates, nor will the friendzone ploy - pay attention to what Doll said in regards to that. i'm not going to say that the whole out of your league thing is something you should pretend does or doesn't exist - it is very real - it's not just a physical thing, tho - charisma, personality, and charm go a long ways sometimes - still, first impressions also matter, and girls, like guys, are going to notice the hot people first - it's just the way it is - you walk into a room, you notice Bradly Cooper before you notice Seth Rogan.

I think Seth Rogan is hot... Not that Bradly isn't, but Seth Rogan is in fact hot.. I'm just saying.

Edit: See.. Yum.. *Swoons*

Edit again: Okay best one I can find of them together. Both hot! :D But I know what you meant.

If you want a gf and you're not trying sites like match.com then you're going to be meeting only 1 women per thousand (or even less) that you have any kind of chance with. The women you would have a chance with aren't out in public where you're likely to meet them. They're on there way to becoming spinsters or they're only dating people they screen first through some mechanism. If you screen each other first, your odds of meeting one that you have a chance with rise to maybe 1 per 100. If you meet them through some site where they're actively looking for a bf and they friend-zone you, throw them back and look for another one. The last thing you need is "friends" who will be jealous if you're paying attention to other women.

Don't let any real truths hurt...address the truths and live in reality...Remember too - that you are the only one who can control how you feel.

I suggest to ease up on the hating and anti-social things. But that too is just a suggestion.

(Sorry, I had to cut the quote down so I could type in the field)

That is a much kinder and clearer reply than the first one you put in this thread. The reason I jumped on it is because I know for a fact that other people have done the same thing in the past on here, but much more brutally, and in many cases, it isn't helpful. This is one of those cases.

I was brought up to care about how a person behaves and acts. There are many people I stay away from because of it, and many others I gravitate to because of it. But their outside is still just a shell to me, the thing that houses them, with its own individual characteristics and beauties. It makes me angry when I see somebody crying because their nose is a little bigger than what the social guidelines dictate, or a person starving themselves because they have a pear-shaped figure. Dress one up as an ancient Roman, and he would look commanding and authoritative. Dress the other up in very little with her hair down, and she could replicate a Rubens painting, which many call sensual and erotic. An African friend told me that in his country I would be treated like a queen, whether I had money or not, just because of my size.

Society changes what they think is "acceptable" in appearance. What I hate is the fact that others with a narrower view are constantly forcing that opinion on those who can do nothing about it. "Don't bother talking to those kinds of people, they won't want you." What sort of attitude is that? How do you know? Why can't each person make the call as to whether they like a person, without being told by others who they should and shouldn't bother trying to get to know?

Yes, I know full well that appearances matter. I have that said to me every day. I read it all over the forums here. I know "that's how it is". People who subscribe to that way of thinking are all over the place and say it all the time. Is that helpful for everybody? No. Sometimes there are different and deeper issues at play.

I am anti-social in my profile for a few reasons. It's a way to protect myself from people who want to push me further than I am able to cope with. Some people say that their master/mistress won't allow it. I put up a bigger barrier. I am also not able to respond sometimes, due to panic attacks or a very low concentration level. Often, I can lurk over the forums, but I can't take anything in. I sometimes read posts four or five times and still can't take it in. And as soon as that black box noise goes off, because I forgot to turn the sound off, I'm in a panic again.

I advertised that I'm inexperienced for the same reason. When I joined, I wanted to be honest about why my writing would be crap. As it turns out, I did much better than I could ever have imagined, but that also meant that people wanted certain things from me that I couldn't give, and called me a liar. So I left that comment as it was, and it helps. It's how it is on Lush. I'm not looking for a relationship on here.

As for laying myself open, that's the sort of person that I am. I keep many things inside, and trust comes very slowly, if at all. But the one thing I do believe in is being open and honest as far as I am able. I came here to learn and explore, as my real self. Others like to be imaginary selves, and that's fine for them. But I share what I share if I think it can help somebody else, or make them feel not so alone, or if it means I might find the answers I'm looking for, or lay out my own thought process to view it better.

With regards to why I'm like I am, I think that my replies to the original poster show that I do have a certain measure of self-awareness, and the things that I am trying to do are in order to combat and change that. I even made a private album that a very small handful of people can see, in order to find out what I am happy with sharing appearance-wise, and to see if I can learn to view myself in the same way that I view others.

I see beauty very differently to most of the world, and I'm glad. I use that view in my photography, and people can see what I see through it. That's wonderful, because there is a lot of beauty out there that we miss. It's all about what we think beauty is, and how we look for it. Much of the time, we don't realise that we can look for it. We are used to looking for it in the shapes and angles that require less work or getting on our knees to see it differently.

But I'm damned if I let somebody get told (again) that they should stick to their point of whatever scale societal norms have chosen for them just because of how they look, without calling it out in some way! The world might think that way generally, but it doesn't make it right. Why shouldn't a lone voice damn it for the discriminating condemnation that they see it is, even if they know full well that they can't change it? But who says we can't change physical discrimination? You all have your "preferences", as you call them, and that's fine. That's your choice. But it's cruel and unnecessary to tell somebody who doesn't meet them that the entire world thinks like that. Or is it just the people who don't fit into those preferences that thinks like I do? My bad. It looks like I'm on the lesser being scale after all.

I used to be outwardly outgoing and self-confident. I wore it as a mask, and whilst it was a front, it was still a part of who I was. That changed for a few reasons, most of which were outside my control, and they are not relevant here. But in living a simpler, smaller life, whilst there are still issues I have to deal with, it's much easier for me to manage. I'm stand-offish from people here for a reason, and I make no apology for that. You don't know me, although I laid certain things out for you. I am very well aware of my failings, thank you, and I am learning to deal with them. But I still won't let a person be kicked when they're feeling down without expressing my feelings about certain aspects of it.

And I still fucking hate that mentality. I will never accept it, and I blame it for three suicides, two of whom were children. That's my right, and I shall hold it. It doesn't mean that I necessarily judge a person who thinks the way that I hate, because that depends on the rest of their character. But I do fucking hate that way of thinking, and I always will.

I'm done here now, so don't worry, there are no more essays for you to have to trawl through. Oh look, there goes my anti-social streak. I appreciate you taking the time to give a full reply earlier, and I thank you for it.

The whole 'maybe you are trying to date someone above your level' thing isn't actually meant as an exclusionary thing. On the contrary, it's asking someone to see *all* females (or males) as potential prospects and not to just concentrate on girls that fall into the 'upper echelons of hotness'.

Sometimes people get frustrated with their inability to find dates because they have a narrow view of what they want and often that too is coloured by societal standards of beauty. Their quest for the perfect 8-10 may fall flat and thus it encourages the person to include more types of females as potential love or sexual interests - to widen the playing field and take into account the ones that might be overlooked because everyone (regardless of their own attractiveness) are focused on the hot people only.

I'm not saying that's what's happening in this case with the OP at all. But as far as the general theory goes, I'm sure we all know of several guys and girls IRL where this can happen and it affects their success with dating and relationship. And then they get upset that 'nobody' wants them because they're only focused on chasing the big fish, which are usually the harder ones to catch. So it's not that the advice-giver is telling them to only date down at their level, it's just telling them that perhaps they need a a wider net of what they deem acceptable or attractive in a mate... to be more open-minded about potential love interests and to broaden their standards.

Again - not directed at the OP - just wanted to add my two cent about the theory in general because I can see how it might be misinterpreted.

Joined: 4/15/2011Posts: 7,587Location: Soaking up the sun, United States

Shylass wrote:

(Sorry, I had to cut the quote down so I could type in the field)

That is a much kinder and clearer reply than the first one you put in this thread. The reason I jumped on it is because I know for a fact that other people have done the same thing in the past on here, but much more brutally, and in many cases, it isn't helpful. This is one of those cases.

I was brought up to care about how a person behaves and acts. There are many people I stay away from because of it, and many others I gravitate to because of it. But their outside is still just a shell to me, the thing that houses them, with its own individual characteristics and beauties. It makes me angry when I see somebody crying because their nose is a little bigger than what the social guidelines dictate, or a person starving themselves because they have a pear-shaped figure. Dress one up as an ancient Roman, and he would look commanding and authoritative. Dress the other up in very little with her hair down, and she could replicate a Rubens painting, which many call sensual and erotic. An African friend told me that in his country I would be treated like a queen, whether I had money or not, just because of my size.

Society changes what they think is "acceptable" in appearance. What I hate is the fact that others with a narrower view are constantly forcing that opinion on those who can do nothing about it. "Don't bother talking to those kinds of people, they won't want you." What sort of attitude is that? How do you know? Why can't each person make the call as to whether they like a person, without being told by others who they should and shouldn't bother trying to get to know?

Yes, I know full well that appearances matter. I have that said to me every day. I read it all over the forums here. I know "that's how it is". People who subscribe to that way of thinking are all over the place and say it all the time. Is that helpful for everybody? No. Sometimes there are different and deeper issues at play.

I am anti-social in my profile for a few reasons. It's a way to protect myself from people who want to push me further than I am able to cope with. Some people say that their master/mistress won't allow it. I put up a bigger barrier. I am also not able to respond sometimes, due to panic attacks or a very low concentration level. Often, I can lurk over the forums, but I can't take anything in. I sometimes read posts four or five times and still can't take it in. And as soon as that black box noise goes off, because I forgot to turn the sound off, I'm in a panic again.

I advertised that I'm inexperienced for the same reason. When I joined, I wanted to be honest about why my writing would be crap. As it turns out, I did much better than I could ever have imagined, but that also meant that people wanted certain things from me that I couldn't give, and called me a liar. So I left that comment as it was, and it helps. It's how it is on Lush. I'm not looking for a relationship on here.

As for laying myself open, that's the sort of person that I am. I keep many things inside, and trust comes very slowly, if at all. But the one thing I do believe in is being open and honest as far as I am able. I came here to learn and explore, as my real self. Others like to be imaginary selves, and that's fine for them. But I share what I share if I think it can help somebody else, or make them feel not so alone, or if it means I might find the answers I'm looking for, or lay out my own thought process to view it better.

With regards to why I'm like I am, I think that my replies to the original poster show that I do have a certain measure of self-awareness, and the things that I am trying to do are in order to combat and change that. I even made a private album that a very small handful of people can see, in order to find out what I am happy with sharing appearance-wise, and to see if I can learn to view myself in the same way that I view others.

I see beauty very differently to most of the world, and I'm glad. I use that view in my photography, and people can see what I see through it. That's wonderful, because there is a lot of beauty out there that we miss. It's all about what we think beauty is, and how we look for it. Much of the time, we don't realise that we can look for it. We are used to looking for it in the shapes and angles that require less work or getting on our knees to see it differently.

But I'm damned if I let somebody get told (again) that they should stick to their point of whatever scale societal norms have chosen for them just because of how they look, without calling it out in some way! The world might think that way generally, but it doesn't make it right. Why shouldn't a lone voice damn it for the discriminating condemnation that they see it is, even if they know full well that they can't change it? But who says we can't change physical discrimination? You all have your "preferences", as you call them, and that's fine. That's your choice. But it's cruel and unnecessary to tell somebody who doesn't meet them that the entire world thinks like that. Or is it just the people who don't fit into those preferences that thinks like I do? My bad. It looks like I'm on the lesser being scale after all.

I used to be outwardly outgoing and self-confident. I wore it as a mask, and whilst it was a front, it was still a part of who I was. That changed for a few reasons, most of which were outside my control, and they are not relevant here. But in living a simpler, smaller life, whilst there are still issues I have to deal with, it's much easier for me to manage. I'm stand-offish from people here for a reason, and I make no apology for that. You don't know me, although I laid certain things out for you. I am very well aware of my failings, thank you, and I am learning to deal with them. But I still won't let a person be kicked when they're feeling down without expressing my feelings about certain aspects of it.

And I still fucking hate that mentality. I will never accept it, and I blame it for three suicides, two of whom were children. That's my right, and I shall hold it. It doesn't mean that I necessarily judge a person who thinks the way that I hate, because that depends on the rest of their character. But I do fucking hate that way of thinking, and I always will.

I'm done here now, so don't worry, there are no more essays for you to have to trawl through. Oh look, there goes my anti-social streak. I appreciate you taking the time to give a full reply earlier, and I thank you for it.

Supermodels may be "out of my league" but that's not so much because they are "hotter than me" but rather, they live in an area of society and social standing I'll most likely never achieve. And I'm fine with that. Hell, in my opinion, the super model class wouldn't be in MY league. As in I'd never date one of them. Thin, reedy, high-maintenance, shallow, not to mention the hoards of them that often have loose screws (and thus has eating disorders or worse) and so on and so forth.

I would also argue that attractiveness is incredibly relative anyway.

I saw many, I mean many girls on my college campus I find FAR more attractive than supermodels, hollywood stars, or famous musicians.

Hell, strip away all the make-up and that # increases 10-fold. We're created an illusion of "beauty" that is modified, changed, and sometimes totally reconstructed with tools like photoshop to create levels of beauty that simply DO NOT EXIST in nature on a woman. So in that respect, we really have become a vain, narcissistic society that would do the Greek character Narcissus proud! We're one-upped him and then some. Beauty in a bottle. Beauty in a cream. Beauty in a boob-job.

Fuck, what makes "beauty" anymore these days? So much of it is plastic, surgically enhanced, air-brushed, and incredibly fake.

Hence my confusion on "out of your league." I don't think there's any such thing in MOST cases. I think the real "league" notion comes into play in the stratification of economic wealth and the price we are paying for the system(s) we are living in where money first is everything. THAT is what creates these "leagues" more than anything. The only thing we can take solace in is that that group of people worldwide is incredibly small.

I will say that, Dancing Doll had some great points. You need to play the entire field. Not just sections and portions of it. I don't agree with the belief in "soul mates". I don't think you have one person out there with a beautiful soul to match yours and that if you don't find them, you're up shit creek. I tend to go with the notion that there are many mutually compatible souls out there in the world. And that together, you'll find stability, happiness, and safety. Isn't that ultimately what we all want later in life? Just having that would be enough for me.

But if you have pigeonholed yourself into one group or two, you aren't giving yourself a very good chance at finding your happiness. The RIGHT girl/gal (fuck perfection ladies and gentleman. The perfect guy or girl is a fucking illusion and believing there is one out there is self-abuse of the highest order) can come from anywhere up and down the social ladder. No two people are the same. Don't decide for them though if you are good enough or not. Only you should be making that decision. If you strike-out? Fuck it and move on. You'll never find someone special if you keep going meekly into the night after failure. Change things up. And hell, even look at yourself. Is there anything you want to change about yourself while STILL BEING yourself? Getting back into shape? Fixing your wardrobe. I'm not saying to become someone you are not, just a better version of the self you were born as.

As far as looks go....I'll keep saying this to death. YES! To a certain extent, attractiveness matters. It just does. Or, at the very least, there needs to be a certain level of mutual sexual attraction. If there isn't, you're pretty much just living/hanging out with/occasionally fucking, a very good friend. Outside of that? Hell, looks rapidly decrease past a certain age unless you're vain enough to keep getting enhancements. But that's your own issue of self-image/worth you need to worry about.

Looks do in fact, fade. And hell, underneath that meat bag layer of skin whose only function is to protect us, is the same damn things everyone has and what smells like shit. Human waste, blood, organs, veins, a heart, and hopefully a brain.

Imagine if we went through life with permanent "x-ray vision" where you always saw the skeletal frame of a person until you committed fully to them and only then would you see their meat bag canvas covering. At the very least, it would provide some perspective. And truly weed out the people that are truly ugly in the world.

Okay, so I very rarely comment in forum threads like this, but here goes.

Jay, you are not unattractive at all. Your smile would have drawn me to you in real life. I would have smiled back and said “hi”. What people find attractive and unattractive is so hard to pinpoint. Yes, does looks to a certain degree matter? Sure it does, to an extent; we all have something we are drawn to at that first moment. But in the grand scheme of things, that is not everything. Who a person is and how they come across is what matters.

Having confidence is a HUGE thing and I know that is not easy to have at times. I have struggled with it myself. But the older I get, the more I know myself and who I am. And quite frankly, people don’t like me or whatever size I am or what I look like, then they can fuck off and it’s their loss anyways.

Yes, harsh reality is that some people will not give you the chance you deserve solely because how you look, but you know what, you don’t want to be with that kind of person anyway. You need to start loving yourself and be happy with who you are. And yes, I know that is easier said than done. But you are young and you have your whole life ahead you. You need to start focusing on what part of you that you like and love. Once you build confidence and accept who you are and that you are a great guy, then things will start to change. People will see you and your personality. You decide what you put out for the public to see. Your attitude and outlook towards yourself makes a big difference in how others see you.

And trust me, putting yourself out there and run the risk of getting rejected is scary as hell. But that is the only way to do it. If you are interested in someone, all you can do is show them and be sincere about it. Flirt, have fun and be yourself and try not to take things so serious. :)

Well, you are really opening yourself up to a lot with this thread and in turn you have generated quite a bit of commenting.

I know from experience of being very shy as a young person that the more comfortable you are with yourself, and the more positive attitude you exude, the more attractive you are to others. Its about energy and connection.

I mean yes, as people have stated, certain people look for certain qualities in a man/woman. There are certain characteristics that appeal to me more than others, but it doesn't mean that people can't be attractive anyway.

For example, I love a tall man, but there are some hot guys that are not so tall. I have fallen for all kinds of men who have all kinds of looks, but the common thread remains. The inner beauty illuminates the outer shell, for however lovely a person can look, the spark from within is what ignites a meaningful connection between two people.

I'm not everyone's cup of tea, but I'm still a hot cup of tea. Chin up and think positively about life and yourself!

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