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I really like the inclusion of Whale Watching in this game. It really gives the sense of looking out for your players and the kind of community you're working to nurture. It's a great example of yet another thing that I don't think I've seen any other game do that you guys are going the extra mile to deliver on.

All in all, while it doesn't have the flash and flair of a technical or graphics update, this is an important topic and an awesome update.

Forgive me (and correct me) if I'm understanding this wrong:
Lockbox = Guaranteed to get (list) with a chance to get (cool item).
Booster Pack = Guaranteed to get (list) with a chance to get (random cool item).
How is this not making the whales gamble?

It seems to me that the difference is "exclusive content hidden in lock-boxes” is content that cannot be gotten anywhere except for in lock-boxes. The booster pack they are describing says "extra piece from somewhere else in the game."

If you want that extra piece from the booster pack you could just buy it from the shop, or grind for it in game.
If you want that exclusive content from the lock-box, buy more lock-boxes and keep hoping for the best.

Forgive me (and correct me) if I'm understanding this wrong:
Lockbox = Guaranteed to get (list) with a chance to get (cool item).
Booster Pack = Guaranteed to get (list) with a chance to get (random cool item).
How is this not making the whales gamble?

Lockbox= stuff that requires a key to unlock, typically with the key being purchased. Often what might be in it is not accessible in any other manner. Until it is unlocked, or you choose to throw it away, it takes up space in your inventory, taunting you with what might be in it.
Booster Pack: stuff that you buy in the store, when you want to buy it. Until you decide to buy it, it sits in the store, waiting patiently. Also, the random cool item is (/em goes back and double checks update) potentially available in game:

update wrote:

If you can’t or won’t buy though, you can unlock any of the in-game store items for a single character through gameplay, by earning certain in-game badges.

Great update on the financial plan. Towards the end of CoX with the Free to Play system , the Devs I believe had Signature Story Arcs that subscribers got early access to. Free players had to wait or purchase access via store. Will this be done likewise here?

Also I would suggest this idea. Sub's can run task forces/dungeons/whatever you call them as often as they like and get said rewards. Free players only get to run once daily. This idea is designed to help combat the "gold sellers" who will try to infiltrate the game.

Thank you for not going the lockbox route. That system of gambling is and always will be a sore spot...I do not have the most luck in these situations and it really riled me that it was mostly just a cash grab especially when a certain game brings out its new content in the form of just another lockbox.

Forgive me (and correct me) if I'm understanding this wrong:
Lockbox = Guaranteed to get (list) with a chance to get (cool item).
Booster Pack = Guaranteed to get (list) with a chance to get (random cool item).
How is this not making the whales gamble?

The way that Star Trek Online (and I understand a great many other games) work it is that the Lockbox contains a list of items, each with RANDOM odds to drop, with the most wanted items (of course) having the LOWEST random odds to drop ... meaning you need to buy lots and lots of keys to unlock lots and lots of lockboxes to actually get what you're wanting from the lockbox. How many keys you need is random (of course), but the odds are deliberately set to favor the house so as to turn Players into gamblers and keep them gambling. In the past year, Perfect World Entertainment released some of the most highly sought after items ever in a time limited lockbox window that had people spending hundreds of real $$$ (each!) to buy up keys and then use those to open thousands of lockboxes in the hunt for the rarest of drop chances. It was literally Pay To Grind The RNG. It was just pissing on the Players without the decency to call it "rain" while laughing all the way to the bank.

Games like Star Trek Online like to keep the best content "locked" behind random chances to unlock that you have to pay for to even try to get. That way, how much it costs an individual Player is RANDOM rather than preset and it feeds a gambling addiction so as to get Players to spend MORE $$$ than they otherwise would have for a set price reward. People were actually shelling out more real $$$ on the limited time lockbox I mentioned above for a single absurdly rare drop than the price of a Lifetime Subscription to the game. Seriously. The words "cash grab" don't even begin to describe what it felt like to see this happen. It was just the latest proof/evidence that the game was really only for the Whales, and everyone else was an afterthought (quickly forgotten). Not long afterwards, I got fed up with Star Trek Online (again) and simply stopped playing (again), because THE GRIND was all the "game" had left at that point, since it felt more like a dead end JOB on a self-perpetuating treadmill than a GAME by then.

The Booster Pack idea turns that upside down, according to what I'm reading. Rather than making everything random and exclusive to the Lockbox, instead the contents of the Booster Pack are consistent and predictable (so you'll know what you'll get in advance) and the main draw is the dependable content of the pack. But you'll also get 1 random "bonus" item that could come from outside the Booster Pack's designed contents. So instead of being 100% UNcertain what you're going to get (see: gambling addiction), you can instead have 90-95% certainty of what you're going to get, and the only thing that's randomized is the added on bonus, which is just a "freebie" thrown in for having bought a bundle, rather than something which is unique and exclusive to buying the Booster Pack at all.

—

Verbogeny is one of many pleasurettes afforded a creatific thinkerizer.

The way they described the booster packs imo is rather ambiguous. And it seems the people here are unsure what the devs mean too. I hope we can get some clarification.

All I know is, I will only participate if I know 100% what I'm purchasing. Warframe, and Planetside 2 do a fantastic job with their system (Until the nanite system or whatever). I can purchase exactly what I want, or I can grind out whatever they are offering. It is never a gamble.

One thing they didn't touch on, that other MMO's have done. Is limit the UI for F2P players. This should also definitely not be the case, this is outrageously obnoxious and has turned me away every time. As I'll start F2P to see if it is good, but if I can't get the UI to feel comfortable, that there will stop be from playing.

I honestly would prefer this game just being subscription based. F2P just never feels full to me.

The discussion of lockboxes has reminded me of my complete and utter disdain for them. They're actually what ruined me on Rift, so I'm glad to see that MWM has taken a strong stance against the idea and implementation of them.

While I'm more than happy to pay to get a hold of the game (in triplicate for me and my wife and son--and we'll all have subscriptions), and I know the "purchase price" (really a prepay for premium time) is at least in part to discourage good miners, many games that started with a purchase price have moved away from the B2P model to reduce the barrier to entry and get more people to try their game.

Since there is a cash shop and so theoretically there would be some money made from even free players, could it be better to open your doors with a "Freemuim" model, as you plan, but no prepay/purchase price so as to get more people to give the game a try since CoT is small-niche indie effort?

I know y'all have thought this through ad nauseum and I think the "prepay/buy in" is genius in many ways, I only bring this up because it's the main possible drawback that I see to your model due to the start up and nice nature of the game.

This sounds fine to me. I just have one thought.
While I'm more than happy to pay to get a hold of the game (in triplicate for me and my wife and son--and we'll all have subscriptions), and I know the "purchase price" (really a prepay for premium time) is at least in part to discourage good miners, many games that started with a purchase price have moved away from the B2P model to reduce the barrier to entry and get more people to try their game.
Since there is a cash shop and so theoretically there would be some money made from even free players, could it be better to open your doors with a "Freemuim" model, as you plan, but no prepay/purchase price so as to get more people to give the game a try since CoT is small-niche indie effort?
I know y'all have thought this through ad nauseum and I think the "prepay/buy in" is genius in many ways, I only bring this up because it's the main possible drawback that I see to your model due to the start up and nice nature of the game.

We have studied it, yes, and found that, at least for new titles, "free to download" cases become an impulse install with less than 30 minutes played by a significant portion of the playerbase. This then becomes a major resource drain. The beauty of this sales model is that it can migrate to such a plan later on without redesign.

—

Technical Director

Read enough Facebook and you have to make Sanity Checks. I guess FB is the Great Old One of the interent these days... - Beamrider

warlocc wrote:
Forgive me (and correct me) if I'm understanding this wrong:
Lockbox = Guaranteed to get (list) with a chance to get (cool item).
Booster Pack = Guaranteed to get (list) with a chance to get (random cool item).
How is this not making the whales gamble?
The way that Star Trek Online (and I understand a great many other games) work it is that the Lockbox contains a list of items, each with RANDOM odds to drop, with the most wanted items (of course) having the LOWEST random odds to drop ... meaning you need to buy lots and lots of keys to unlock lots and lots of lockboxes to actually get what you're wanting from the lockbox. How many keys you need is random (of course), but the odds are deliberately set to favor the house so as to turn Players into gamblers and keep them gambling. In the past year, Perfect World Entertainment released some of the most highly sought after items ever in a time limited lockbox window that had people spending hundreds of real $$$ (each!) to buy up keys and then use those to open thousands of lockboxes in the hunt for the rarest of drop chances. It was literally Pay To Grind The RNG. It was just pissing on the Players without the decency to call it "rain" while laughing all the way to the bank.
Games like Star Trek Online like to keep the best content "locked" behind random chances to unlock that you have to pay for to even try to get. That way, how much it costs an individual Player is RANDOM rather than preset and it feeds a gambling addiction so as to get Players to spend MORE $$$ than they otherwise would have for a set price reward. People were actually shelling out more real $$$ on the limited time lockbox I mentioned above for a single absurdly rare drop than the price of a Lifetime Subscription to the game. Seriously. The words "cash grab" don't even begin to describe what it felt like to see this happen. It was just the latest proof/evidence that the game was really only for the Whales, and everyone else was an afterthought (quickly forgotten). Not long afterwards, I got fed up with Star Trek Online (again) and simply stopped playing (again), because THE GRIND was all the "game" had left at that point, since it felt more like a dead end JOB on a self-perpetuating treadmill than a GAME by then.
The Booster Pack idea turns that upside down, according to what I'm reading. Rather than making everything random and exclusive to the Lockbox, instead the contents of the Booster Pack are consistent and predictable (so you'll know what you'll get in advance) and the main draw is the dependable content of the pack. But you'll also get 1 random "bonus" item that could come from outside the Booster Pack's designed contents. So instead of being 100% UNcertain what you're going to get (see: gambling addiction), you can instead have 90-95% certainty of what you're going to get, and the only thing that's randomized is the added on bonus, which is just a "freebie" thrown in for having bought a bundle, rather than something which is unique and exclusive to buying the Booster Pack at all.

^^^^
This

—

Technical Director

Read enough Facebook and you have to make Sanity Checks. I guess FB is the Great Old One of the interent these days... - Beamrider

We have studied it, yes, and found that, at least for new titles, "free to download" cases become an impulse install with less than 30 minutes played by a significant portion of the playerbase. This then becomes a major resource drain. The beauty of this sales model is that it can migrate to such a plan later on without redesign.

Makes sense, and I did notice that your "pre-pay/buy-in" model basically makes it as flexible as it needs to be (genius). As much or as little of a pre-pay/buy-in as you want to set--including zero! I had just wondered if zero was a better place to start for initial marketing--which you addressed in your response :).

And if you're going to have B2P, or, more properly, P2P (prepay to play), at all you have to start with it and establish the expectation.

It's taken me a while to come round to the position of accepting the concept of non-sub-only game, but I'm on board with that now. For me, having to buy the 'box' is an essential part of the model, to ensure that MWM at least gets something for their hard work. The bit I'm still a bit unsure about is the idea that all content, features, and systems for sale in the shop will be earnable through play. Is there nothing that will be exclusive to the shop? Even new power sets and archetypes? What about expansions? It sounds to me like a patient person who doesn't need early access and enjoys putting tons of hours into the game will have nothing to buy in the shop because s/he will eventually get it all from just playing. Which means a subscription for that person would be more like a donation to MWM than an actual purchase of anything. Can you folks at MWM help me get my head round this please?

One thing I am extremely pleased about is your stance on lockboxes. That sounds like a great compromise and decent ethical stance. Well done MWM!

Within Booster Packs do you expect these to be a discount vs buying the items piecemeal? IE if I buy the ninja pack would it be cheaper than buying each piece in the booster pack? Or is the prime advantage of the Booster the value added by the bonus item, (and getting everything in a single purchase)?

I am assuming that booster packs could be purchased piecemeal if a user wanted.

It's taken me a while to come round to the position of accepting the concept of non-sub-only game, but I'm on board with that now. For me, having to buy the 'box' is an essential part of the model, to ensure that MWM at least gets something for their hard work. The bit I'm still a bit unsure about is the idea that all content, features, and systems for sale in the shop will be earnable through play. Is there nothing that will be exclusive to the shop? Even new power sets and archetypes? What about expansions? It sounds to me like a patient person who doesn't need early access and enjoys putting tons of hours into the game will have nothing to buy in the shop because s/he will eventually get it all from just playing. Which means a subscription for that person would be more like a donation to MWM than an actual purchase of anything. Can you folks at MWM help me get my head round this please?
One thing I am extremely pleased about is your stance on lockboxes. That sounds like a great compromise and decent ethical stance. Well done MWM!

Everything in Warframe is earnable in-game, and they are doing amazing money wise. Without any gambling too. They do however, consistently push out more content. Something that many F2P MMO's fail to do.

Within Booster Packs do you expect these to be a discount vs buying the items piecemeal? IE if I buy the ninja pack would it be cheaper than buying each piece in the booster pack? Or is the prime advantage of the Booster the value added by the bonus item, (and getting everything in a single purchase)?
I am assuming that booster packs could be purchased piecemeal if a user wanted.

A discount over buying individually, yes. The bonus item is just an add-on, not integral nor the added value. It's being included as a way to encourage people to look at other available items/categories on the store.

—

Technical Director

Read enough Facebook and you have to make Sanity Checks. I guess FB is the Great Old One of the interent these days... - Beamrider

Grimfox wrote:
Within Booster Packs do you expect these to be a discount vs buying the items piecemeal? IE if I buy the ninja pack would it be cheaper than buying each piece in the booster pack? Or is the prime advantage of the Booster the value added by the bonus item, (and getting everything in a single purchase)?
I am assuming that booster packs could be purchased piecemeal if a user wanted.
A discount over buying individually, yes. The bonus item is just an add-on, not integral nor the added value. It's being included as a way to encourage people to look at other available items/categories on the store.

So to re-iterate.

The "Booster pack" is simply a packaged deal (A whole ninja set, instead of individual items), with a random item as a bonus? And the random item is purchasable normally through the store like everything else?

Doctor Tyche wrote:
Grimfox wrote:
Within Booster Packs do you expect these to be a discount vs buying the items piecemeal? IE if I buy the ninja pack would it be cheaper than buying each piece in the booster pack? Or is the prime advantage of the Booster the value added by the bonus item, (and getting everything in a single purchase)?
I am assuming that booster packs could be purchased piecemeal if a user wanted.
A discount over buying individually, yes. The bonus item is just an add-on, not integral nor the added value. It's being included as a way to encourage people to look at other available items/categories on the store.
So to re-iterate.
The "Booster pack" is simply a packaged deal (A whole ninja set, instead of individual items), with a random item as a bonus? And the random item is purchasable normally through the store like everything else?

Right.

—

Technical Director

Read enough Facebook and you have to make Sanity Checks. I guess FB is the Great Old One of the interent these days... - Beamrider

So buying the ninja booster could also net you the giant shoes from the clown booster. Or the goggles from the steampunk booster.

Nother question. If I've been very spendy and I own everything in the store, and I buy the newest just released booster what do I get as a bonus item? Token of appreciation? Phrased another way, is there a chance I get something from the bonus that I already own?

Klaleara wrote:
Doctor Tyche wrote:
Grimfox wrote:
Within Booster Packs do you expect these to be a discount vs buying the items piecemeal? IE if I buy the ninja pack would it be cheaper than buying each piece in the booster pack? Or is the prime advantage of the Booster the value added by the bonus item, (and getting everything in a single purchase)?
I am assuming that booster packs could be purchased piecemeal if a user wanted.
A discount over buying individually, yes. The bonus item is just an add-on, not integral nor the added value. It's being included as a way to encourage people to look at other available items/categories on the store.
So to re-iterate.
The "Booster pack" is simply a packaged deal (A whole ninja set, instead of individual items), with a random item as a bonus? And the random item is purchasable normally through the store like everything else?
Right.

I mean, this might seem small. But I would personally re-word to be more...clear on what it does. To me, it sounded like a PR way of saying "We aren't using lockbox's! It functions like one, but its called something else!"

This is a BIIIIIIIIIIG issue for a lot of people, I personally would make sure that people understand what you're doing 100% to avoid backfire.

That and "Booster Pack" is kinda mis-leading in today's format. Usually booster is some sort of temporary buff or consumable of some sort.

I mean, this might seem small. But I would personally re-word to be more...clear on what it does. To me, it sounded like a PR way of saying "We aren't using lockbox's! It functions like one, but its called something else!"
That and "Booster Pack" is kinda mis-leading in today's format. Usually booster is some sort of temporary buff or consumable of some sort.
I approve of this though. If I understand it correctly.

When I think of Booster packs I think more along the lines of TCG and I think that is the origin of MWM definition. Where a booster pack would be 15 cards from a particular theme. In this case you aren't buying blind, you'll be able to see all but one item in the booster. The bonus item, which will exist somewhere in the store.

Klaleara wrote:
I mean, this might seem small. But I would personally re-word to be more...clear on what it does. To me, it sounded like a PR way of saying "We aren't using lockbox's! It functions like one, but its called something else!"
That and "Booster Pack" is kinda mis-leading in today's format. Usually booster is some sort of temporary buff or consumable of some sort.
I approve of this though. If I understand it correctly.
When I think of Booster packs I think more along the lines of TCG and I think that is the origin of MWM definition. Where a booster pack would be 15 cards from a particular theme. In this case you aren't buying blind, you'll be able to see all but one item in the booster. The bonus item, which will exist somewhere in the store.

That's pretty much how I also understand the term 'Booster Pack', but I've also played Magic for many a year and have that personal bias towards the term.

MTG (Or any card trading game) too yeah, but even that is a blind pack.

I just think CoT needs to tread around this really carefully. As this is definitely a make/break deal for a lot of people. Could easily see someone misunderstand something in the first sentence and just walk away.

Everything in Warframe is earnable in-game, and they are doing amazing money wise. Without any gambling too. They do however, consistently push out more content. Something that many F2P MMO's fail to do.

Sure, it may be a viable model, but the question I'm asking is what's the incentive for a patient player who puts in many hours of play to give MWM any money after the initial purchase? Other than their gratitude and goodwill, of course. :-)

I suppose it could take a really, really long time to earn things through play. Just cuz something is earnable doesn't mean it has to be easily earnable.

Klaleara wrote:
Everything in Warframe is earnable in-game, and they are doing amazing money wise. Without any gambling too. They do however, consistently push out more content. Something that many F2P MMO's fail to do.
Sure, it may be a viable model, but the question I'm asking is what's the incentive for a patient player who puts in many hours of play to give MWM any money after the initial purchase? Other than their gratitude and goodwill, of course. :-)
I suppose it could take a really, really long time to earn things through play. Just cuz something is earnable doesn't mean it has to be easily earnable.

The per-character vs global element. How many times did you groan over needing to grind the same content again to unlock a part for a new character? Recall, our aim is to encourage alting.

—

Technical Director

Read enough Facebook and you have to make Sanity Checks. I guess FB is the Great Old One of the interent these days... - Beamrider

As they have stated it's not a blind pack. It's more like buying a sheet out of someone's binder. You can see everything there, and as a bonus there is a extra card tucked in behind one of the others.

They did say that, I'm not arguing that. I'm just looking at this from a "first impression", and understanding standpoint, that is all. Not everyone is going to look into it, or ask questions. A lot will see "Booster Pack" and assume its the same as other games with the term. Also the "Whale Watcher" term didn't really help imo haha, too close to something that is coined very bad in my book.

I'm not saying what they are doing is bad, just the way they are presenting it, doesn't seem the greatest. But alas, I'm no marketing genius by any means. I'm just going off of my own first impressions on what they said, and knowledge of knowing other people won't look into it like me.

City of Heroes sold Booster packs with cosmetic items exclusive to the store. I believe the term that MWM is using stems from that. I'm ok with the booster packs and the cash shop having exclusive items not available from grinding the game for hours. The difference I see here is that in CoH the booster was a random loot table (aka lockbox) where here its more like a bundle w/ discounts plus a random freebie. I do not mind paying for the things I want in the cash shop as long as it is cosmetic stuff, new power sets, xpacs and stuff like that. What I don't want is P2W. Hopefully the prices on the cash shop will be reasonable. For example, $5- $10 (Or the equivalent of it in STARS) for the ninja bundle that was mentioned is perfectly acceptable. With of course the occasional flash sale every once and while on older packs w/ discounts.

I think the B2P + Sub model is a great idea and should curb "gold" sellers. I am curious though about what the VIP rewards are going to be for subbing. I'm sure that has been talked about internally but, anything you can share with us? Should I expect something similar to the way CoH did it (monthly in game currency + multi tiered Veteran Rewards)?

City of Heroes sold Booster packs with cosmetic items exclusive to the store. I believe the term that MWM is using stems from that. I'm ok with the booster packs and the cash shop having exclusive items not available from grinding the game for hours. The difference I see here is that in CoH the booster was a random loot table (aka lockbox) where here its more like a bundle w/ discounts plus a random freebie. I do not mind paying for the things I want in the cash shop as long as it is cosmetic stuff, new power sets, xpacs and stuff like that. What I don't want is P2W. Hopefully the prices on the cash shop will be reasonable. For example, $5- $10 (Or the equivalent of it in STARS) for the ninja bundle that was mentioned is perfectly acceptable. With of course the occasional flash sale every once and while on older packs w/ discounts.
I think the B2P + Sub model is a great idea and should curb "gold" sellers. I am curious though about what the VIP rewards are going to be for subbing. I'm sure that has been talked about internally but, anything you can share with us? Should I expect something similar to the way CoH did it (monthly in game currency + multi tiered Veteran Rewards)?

We did make mention of our alternative to veteran rewards in the writeup, which we have tentatively termed loyalty tokens. The only part of the subscription we did not mention was early access. A subscriber will have access to a test server, and will have earlier access to content/items/unlocks than the non-subscriber. Not a *huge* lead time, talking 30-90 days depending on what it is, but still earlier access. I know this model has worked well in several other games as well.

—

Technical Director

Read enough Facebook and you have to make Sanity Checks. I guess FB is the Great Old One of the interent these days... - Beamrider

We did make mention of our alternative to veteran rewards in the writeup, which we have tentatively termed loyalty tokens. The only part of the subscription we did not mention was early access. A subscriber will have access to a test server, and will have earlier access to content/items/unlocks than the non-subscriber. Not a *huge* lead time, talking 30-90 days depending on what it is, but still earlier access. I know this model has worked well in several other games as well.

Sounds pretty interesting. I'm curious about how many characters slots we'll start the game with. I'm somewhat hopeful we'll get 3 to 5 at the start. I know I restarted several times the first time I played CoH just to figure out what class I wanted to play as.

Sounds pretty interesting. I'm curious about how many characters slots we'll start the game with. I'm somewhat hopeful we'll get 3 to 5 at the start. I know I restarted several times the first time I played CoH just to figure out what class I wanted to play as.

I only just realized our edits accidentally removed that information. It'll be in the website version when it goes up this evening.

Solid update, and thanks for being around to clarify everyone's questions. In the long run I think this system will be one of the easiest to understand & use, both for MWM and the players. It will be a relief to put money into something besides these so-called free to play models that present convoluted messes of gambling, pay-to-win, and per-character unlocks of things that nickel-and-dime me for having alts.

Edit:
On the subject of "When is a lockbox a lockbox, and what exactly is a booster then?". In GW2, the game causes you to acquire "Black Lion Chest" objects as randomized in-game treasure. These cannot be opened unless you spend a Black Lion Key to do so, and they sell the keys in the cash shop. There are also some very infrequent in-game rewards where you get a key, just to teach the players what the system is and how it works. The equivalent of giving everyone staying in your hotel free complementary poker chips to gamble away, just to get them hooked. The chests, when opened, always give you about ~75silver worth of raw materials, and some other little perks that are basically worthless. Also a very small chance at a very rare sword or something like that, which will exclusively only fall out of the Black Lion Chest, I think, and is account bound. I have not gotten any of those in the 5-6 Black Lion chests I have opened using keys I got for doing map completion.

But the Boosters are something you'll have to go to the cash shop on your own to buy and as far as I can tell, will not drop on you at random from the game and won't need to be unlocked with keys. Also, you'll be buying something that you already know what you're getting and then get an added extra thrown in on top. GW2 also sells things like armor and weapon skins, dyes (literally colors you can use in the avatar editor...) and so forth. If I wanted to, I could grind for gold, then use that to buy Gems to use in the cash shop, or you can pay real money for Gems, it's their "Stars" basically. These gems could, in theory, buy me everything in the store, BUT I've been playing for almost a year now and I haven't even come CLOSE to making enough gold to convert to gems to get everything they have. Luckily, I don't WANT everything either. Plus, I use gold to make other stuff I want, like gear. Long story short, if I didn't HATE NCSoft, I would have bought some costume stuff long ago for real money. As it is, I didn't and won't, but that's a personal spite thing.

In the gulf coast area of the USofA there is a term "Lagniappe" pronounced LAN-yap. A lagniappe is 'a little something extra' that a store owner would give you when you bought something. Like a lollipop. It's a nice little reward or token of appreciation to the customer for doing business.

The extra bonus random item in the Booster Packs seems like a lagniappe. It's not the reason we buy the booster packs, but it makes the purchase sweeter.

—

I like to take your ideas and supersize them. This isn't criticism, it is flattery. I come with nothing but good will and a spirit of team-building. If you take what I write any other way, that is probably just because I wasn't very clear.

The financial model is something important for all the players all over the world (ok, i know you are seeing me coming xD)
What about having this news in other languages ?
What about the conversion in other money ? Is 15 $ will be 15€ or 15 £ or...

Well, that's less than I would have hoped for, as I'm the kind of player who had multiple characters of different ATs in every level range.

That's not a complaint, just a comment. I recognize the need for limits. As long as we'll be able to purchase more, then it's a problem easily mended. That'll be one of only a very few things I'd be likely to spend extra on, above the sub cost.

Oh, but the sub cost feeds our store account, is that right? If so, then that's no worry.

And I do like that you open a new character slot when you hit level cap.

The per-character vs global element. How many times did you groan over needing to grind the same content again to unlock a part for a new character? Recall, our aim is to encourage alting.

Honestly, never. I did the cape mission and aura mission, for example, with every character I made in our old city.

I guess I'll have to look at CoT like shareware, where there's no actual incentive for a patient consumer to purchase anything beyond the initial 'box', but if I want to give MWM some cash every now and then for something I enjoy playing it will be like a Patreon donation.

I have to say, whether a fan or not, CoH imo, did Booster Packs right.

Bought a pack. If you got a costume piece, you knew you weren't going to get it again. CoH was the only Booster Packs I ever found worth it in a MMO, as I didn't feel a player was always getting screwed over with the items.

Assuming the booster costs X Stars, you could make it work such that if and when you would get a "special bonus" that you already have, you get 0.1*X Stars, which would essentially be a "rebate" if nothing else.

Personally I wish MWM the best of luck with the monetization they've decided to go with. I would personally like it if the cash shop offeres at least one thing that the players can always spend extra Stars on for a temporary effect of some kind. For example, ib GW2 they have food items that give you a stat buff for like 15 min to an hour of play time. Making such requires you to use up one of your two free crafting profession slots on Cooking instead of the armor and weapons you personally use, which means that you generally want to either have those skills on another toon or buy a third crafting profession slot for real money. Anyway, the food items require raw materials and so forth to make, and you have to grind on the cooking craft to even get to the point where you can make good stuff. If you could buy already-made food buffs from the cash shop, you could at least burn off excess Stars that way. As always, my stance on "Pay to Win" is "Ahhh, it'll be fine."

Thank you for not going the lockbox route. That system of gambling is and always will be a sore spot...I do not have the most luck in these situations and it really riled me that it was mostly just a cash grab especially when a certain game brings out its new content in the form of just another lockbox.

There has been a break-out at the jail! A villain has stolen all the locks off the cells and scattered them in boxes all over the place! Your mission is to gather the.....

—

________
This looks like a job for SPAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAACE MOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOSE!!!!!!!

Lockboxes: never seen a system yet that I felt treated the players with respect.

Booster packs: I loved the CoH Freedom booster packs. Bought many of them with cash, bought many of them with veteran's rewards. Used the special ultra rare enhancements in the booster packs to fund my love of constant respects!

The one advantage to having a bunch of PvP players is they will spend any amount of ingame currency they can get their hands on to fit that one last piece they cannot live without. I would buy a booster pack, get an ultra rare widget, then sell it in the Auction House and buy three or four complete enhancement sets with the revenue. Which is probably why my Beast Mastery/Natural Affinity Mastermind was such a shock to the pair of heroes that tried to ambush her. For all I know, one of them bought the ultra-rare thingamajig that paid for her enhancement sets.

No mention yet of subscription plans... Will there be an annual plan? A lifetime plan?

No mention yet of subscription plans... Will there be an annual plan? A lifetime plan?

I currently have a "lifetime subscription" to two other MMOs. Of course don't play either of those games anymore but I probably played them enough to more or less break even on what I would have paid for monthly subscriptions for them when I was actively playing them.

I used to pay for CoH via annual subscriptions (IIRC, I paid for at least 6 or 7 years that way) and that worked out for the most part. It was easier than dealing with a monthly payment and still allowed me to continue supporting the game.

While the lifetime subscription subscription deal does make it easy for the player I would actually think twice about doing it for CoT. It's not because I don't believe in CoT - it's actually quite the opposite. I'm hoping that CoT is good enough that I'd be willing to keep paying for it as long as possible to keep being able to contribute to its financial success. I'd be happy enough to once again pay for a game like this on an annual subscription basis for as long as possible.

Six slots to start? Well I know I'm buying more slots ;p On that note, what's the maximum slots allowed? 20? 50? 100? 1000? ;)

There's probably going to be some "hardwired max" but that max could easily be set at a point that practically no one would reach it. For historical reference CoH allowed as many as 48 per server if you were a VIP player.

I imagine since CoT is going to the "single server" design that the max might be as high as say 200. Of course I figure if you have more than say 100 alts you probably need some "professional" counseling. ;)

desviper wrote:
Six slots to start? Well I know I'm buying more slots ;p On that note, what's the maximum slots allowed? 20? 50? 100? 1000? ;)
There's probably going to be some "hardwired max" but that max could easily be set at a point that practically no one would reach it. For historical reference CoH allowed as many as 48 per server if you were a VIP player.
I imagine since CoT is going to the "single server" design that the max might be as high as say 200. Of course I figure if you have more than say 100 alts you probably need some "professional" counseling. ;)

I should actually test the database sometime to see how many it can handle.

—

Technical Director

Read enough Facebook and you have to make Sanity Checks. I guess FB is the Great Old One of the interent these days... - Beamrider

Hey guys, good ideas for the funding, and I'd like to make a suggestion as well. Since Titans is a by-gamers-for-gamers venture, I'm sure you're all keenly aware of how much we all hate to hear the phrase "pay to win." I really hope that cash shop items remain in the realm of cosmetic-only items, effects that are directly in-line with mechanics that can be accessed for free, or items that are really only for convenience. Every penny that one gamer spends to have an edge in power is a dollar that gamers will resent having to shell out to keep up.

While the lifetime subscription subscription deal does make it easy for the player I would actually think twice about doing it for CoT. It's not because I don't believe in CoT - it's actually quite the opposite. I'm hoping that CoT is good enough that I'd be willing to keep paying for it as long as possible to keep being able to contribute to its financial success. I'd be happy enough to once again pay for a game like this on an annual subscription basis for as long as possible.

The problem with a lifetime account is that it eventually becomes a drag on cash flow, which makes monthly operating costs more difficult to support. At $15/month, for example, a $299 lifetime sub stops providing steady income after 20 months. After that, a player is only going to contribute to revenue through cash shop purchases, and that probably won't happen at a rate anywhere near $15/month, especially if they're still getting a stipend.

Lothic wrote:
desviper wrote:
Six slots to start? Well I know I'm buying more slots ;p On that note, what's the maximum slots allowed? 20? 50? 100? 1000? ;)
There's probably going to be some "hardwired max" but that max could easily be set at a point that practically no one would reach it. For historical reference CoH allowed as many as 48 per server if you were a VIP player.
I imagine since CoT is going to the "single server" design that the max might be as high as say 200. Of course I figure if you have more than say 100 alts you probably need some "professional" counseling. ;)
I should actually test the database sometime to see how many it can handle.

No matter how many the database can handle you still might want to hardwire the max to some semi-reasonable large number.

Not only would it be less likely (from an engineering point of view) to fail due to too trying to maintain "too much critical data" per player but in all seriousness I don't think any single player really ought to have virtually "limitless" number of alts. I know I half-joked about people with too many alts needing counseling but, again seriously, if you have any regard for the general mental health of your players you really shouldn't allow them to have "too many" alts.

If anything else putting a cap on this might actually prevent some kind of unforeseen exploit a player might be able to figure out by having some semi-ridiculously huge number of alts on the system.

Lothic wrote:
While the lifetime subscription subscription deal does make it easy for the player I would actually think twice about doing it for CoT. It's not because I don't believe in CoT - it's actually quite the opposite. I'm hoping that CoT is good enough that I'd be willing to keep paying for it as long as possible to keep being able to contribute to its financial success. I'd be happy enough to once again pay for a game like this on an annual subscription basis for as long as possible.
The problem with a lifetime account is that it eventually becomes a drag on cash flow, which makes monthly operating costs more difficult to support. At $15/month, for example, a $299 lifetime sub stops providing steady income after 20 months. After that, a player is only going to contribute to revenue through cash shop purchases, and that probably won't happen at a rate anywhere near $15/month, especially if they're still getting a stipend.

That's exactly my point. I'd personally rather keep paying MWM indefinitely than to effectively stop paying after I got past the lifetime threshold. Because of this I'd actually suggest MWM not offer a lifetime subscription option, or if they do they should hold off on it until at least a few years -after- launch.

Shadow Elusive wrote:
And the answer is six. You start with six slots.
Well, that's less than I would have hoped for, as I'm the kind of player who had multiple characters of different ATs in every level range.

We're not saying that maxing out a character is the *only* way to get more slots. The cash shop, vet rewards, and other things are possibilities, too.

Foradain wrote:

Six slots to start, and a new one for every level-capped character? I wonder how many I'll buy before I get a character to fifty... ^_^

Folks, please remember that at launch the level cap is 30. You might be cranking out capped characters faster than you expect.

Doctor Tyche wrote:

I should actually test the database sometime to see how many it can handle.

He says as he looks for anything else to do that isn't maps... <_<

Nebroxah wrote:

I'm sure you're all keenly aware of how much we all hate to hear the phrase "pay to win." I really hope that cash shop items remain in the realm of cosmetic-only items, effects that are directly in-line with mechanics that can be accessed for free, or items that are really only for convenience.

P2W is a much bigger danger in gear-driven games, because it's the gear you're buying. So unless we start only offering the top-level enhancements/refinements/etc. in the cash shop and making everything bind-on-pickup, there shouldn't be much risk of P2W.

And besides, where's the fun in that?

SisterSilicon wrote:

The problem with a lifetime account is that it eventually becomes a drag on cash flow, which makes monthly operating costs more difficult to support. At $15/month, for example, a $299 lifetime sub stops providing steady income after 20 months.

It's worse than that: the cash flow stops immediately. Yes, it's 20 months before we would have gotten more, but it's still one big pile up front, and if you don't do careful accounting for that, you can fool yourself into thinking that you're going to have a lot more case flow than you will.

Repeating Grimfox's question about the bonus item if you already have everything else from the cash shop. Would the item be something I could trade/sell then? Or perhaps as someone else mentioned just a random amount of bonus Stars instead?

Six slots to start? Well I know I'm buying more slots ;p On that note, what's the maximum slots allowed? 20? 50? 100? 1000? ;)

There's probably going to be some "hardwired max" but that max could easily be set at a point that practically no one would reach it. For historical reference CoH allowed as many as 48 per server if you were a VIP player.
I imagine since CoT is going to the "single server" design that the max might be as high as say 200. Of course I figure if you have more than say 100 alts you probably need some "professional" counseling. ;)

I should actually test the database sometime to see how many it can handle.

Six slots to start, and a new one for every level-capped character? I wonder how many I'll buy before I get a character to fifty... ^_^
Folks, please remember that at launch the level cap is 30. You might be cranking out capped characters faster than you expect.

Excellent point. I hope, if we get extra character slots when our early characters hit level 30, that those characters don't also grant more extra slots when they finally reach 50. Unless that's WAI, of course. ^_^

Ow ! That's more than enought ! For who has not too much time to play ^^
But, gaining slots on each cap lvl 50 is a good idea so make the player stay longer on the game (at least if we have not to do always the same story ^^ again and again to level up a character. Fortunately, you said the mission system was done to put easily missions on game. And, there will be the mission creator isn't it ?)

The second-most annoying thing in an MMO is having to watch those stupid "Bob "Robby" Roberton just won a blah-ditty-blah from a limited edition no-one-cares lockbox!" splash across the middle of your screen while you're trying to pay attention to an epic threat enemy. No lockboxes means no mandatory splash messages (that are only there so people know it's possible to win something non-shitty after their twentieth failed attempt).

Of course, the number one annoying thing is people advertising for in-game currency exchanged for real money by third-parties that constantly make new accounts. "Adjksoa shouts: 5$ = 50,000 gold at w e s u c k t o t a l l y .com! fast devilerlivery garntied fast noscamm" What's even worse is when they start pm'ing everyone on the server and no matter how many of them you ignore, more keep popping up, because they make a new account every ten seconds. Hopefully the mandatory startup cost will prevent that, too.

But even if the spammers find a way around that, I'm extremely glad to see the lockbox nonsense won't be happening here.

desviper wrote:
Six slots to start? Well I know I'm buying more slots ;p On that note, what's the maximum slots allowed? 20? 50? 100? 1000? ;)
There's probably going to be some "hardwired max" but that max could easily be set at a point that practically no one would reach it. For historical reference CoH allowed as many as 48 per server if you were a VIP player.
I imagine since CoT is going to the "single server" design that the max might be as high as say 200. Of course I figure if you have more than say 100 alts you probably need some "professional" counseling. ;)

This is, in my opinion, the best information update MWM has given. Don't get me wrong, most of the other updates are cool and good info, especially the backgrounds. However, verification on how they will do subscriptions was important to me because I want a lifetime sub. And I will buy it the moment it goes on sale.

Sorry if I missed this in the article or the forum but with the Booster Pack Bonus Item will it be possible to get a duplicate of an item I already have? If so do I get nothing or do I get a Star value or something else?

Doctor Tyche wrote:
The per-character vs global element. How many times did you groan over needing to grind the same content again to unlock a part for a new character? Recall, our aim is to encourage alting.
Honestly, never. I did the cape mission and aura mission, for example, with every character I made in our old city.
I guess I'll have to look at CoT like shareware, where there's no actual incentive for a patient consumer to purchase anything beyond the initial 'box', but if I want to give MWM some cash every now and then for something I enjoy playing it will be like a Patreon donation.

Right, but that was fairly little "content" when looked at as a whole. Since it sounds like there will be much much more such "content" in CoT then I guess the possibility for those who won't be spending one single cent outside of the initial purchase will be vanishingly small.

I'm sure there will be enough people who will eventually pay for the convenience of not having to grind out a specific unlockable yet again, or who wants access to it at initial character creation, or even just paying to do what they can to make it survive. In a non-sub MMO not everyone has to pay for their own usage, and trying to do so would most likely lower total revenue instead of increasing it due to driving players away.

This is, in my opinion, the best information update MWM has given. Don't get me wrong, most of the other updates are cool and good info, especially the backgrounds. However, verification on how they will do subscriptions was important to me because I want a lifetime sub. And I will buy it the moment it goes on sale.

Even though I would most likely buy a lifetime sub myself I would strongly caution MWM against having one.

From a consumer perspective it is really good since you pay once and then have that bonus for the rest of the games lifetime.

From a business perspective it is actually really bad for the long run. You may get huge sums upfront but you have to take that into account and spread that revenue over a long period of time so as to not delude oneself. There is also the permanent reduction of revenue after the clump sum has been "spent" (when compared to monthly payments) due to the player still having all those bonuses, especially in regards to stipends of cash-shop currencies.

Lothic wrote:
desviper wrote:
Six slots to start? Well I know I'm buying more slots ;p On that note, what's the maximum slots allowed? 20? 50? 100? 1000? ;)
There's probably going to be some "hardwired max" but that max could easily be set at a point that practically no one would reach it. For historical reference CoH allowed as many as 48 per server if you were a VIP player.
I imagine since CoT is going to the "single server" design that the max might be as high as say 200. Of course I figure if you have more than say 100 alts you probably need some "professional" counseling. ;)
I should actually test the database sometime to see how many it can handle.

Perfect excuse for a "pre-Alpha stress test" in conjunction with release of the character creator! Everybody logs in and creates at least ten characters then runs a small, closed zone tutorial!

Concerning the lifetime subscription, it has already been addressed in the March / April Q&A Thread post 23

Doctor Tyche wrote:

For the record - no, we are not implementing a lifetime subscription. They were a gimmick used some years back, but yes, as you pointed out they seem to inevitably become.... less is the best word.

Edit: But apparently someone that has control of the MWM KS account seems to think that lifetime subs are still under consideration in the comments >> "Lifetimes: We have several plans, but we're keeping it fluid until closer to launch". What is the official stance this month?

Sorry if I missed this in the article or the forum but with the Booster Pack Bonus Item will it be possible to get a duplicate of an item I already have? If so do I get nothing or do I get a Star value or something else?

They are not items, but unlocks. As such you cannot get a duplicate

—

Technical Director

Read enough Facebook and you have to make Sanity Checks. I guess FB is the Great Old One of the interent these days... - Beamrider

Sorry if I missed this in the article or the forum but with the Booster Pack Bonus Item will it be possible to get a duplicate of an item I already have? If so do I get nothing or do I get a Star value or something else?

They are not items, but unlocks. As such you cannot get a duplicate

Color me skeptical, but if the extra bonus random item is truly random, how can you ensure it will not be something we've already unlocked?

—

I like to take your ideas and supersize them. This isn't criticism, it is flattery. I come with nothing but good will and a spirit of team-building. If you take what I write any other way, that is probably just because I wasn't very clear.

stonejaguar wrote:
This is, in my opinion, the best information update MWM has given. Don't get me wrong, most of the other updates are cool and good info, especially the backgrounds. However, verification on how they will do subscriptions was important to me because I want a lifetime sub. And I will buy it the moment it goes on sale.
Even though I would most likely buy a lifetime sub myself I would strongly caution MWM against having one.
From a consumer perspective it is really good since you pay once and then have that bonus for the rest of the games lifetime.
From a business perspective it is actually really bad for the long run. You may get huge sums upfront but you have to take that into account and spread that revenue over a long period of time so as to not delude oneself. There is also the permanent reduction of revenue after the clump sum has been "spent" (when compared to monthly payments) due to the player still having all those bonuses, especially in regards to stipends of cash-shop currencies.

Is there any game that has offered lifetime subscriptions still running?

I know STO did, but they were bought out though. Everything else I can think of that did is dead I believe.

blacke4dawn wrote:
stonejaguar wrote:
This is, in my opinion, the best information update MWM has given. Don't get me wrong, most of the other updates are cool and good info, especially the backgrounds. However, verification on how they will do subscriptions was important to me because I want a lifetime sub. And I will buy it the moment it goes on sale.
Even though I would most likely buy a lifetime sub myself I would strongly caution MWM against having one.
From a consumer perspective it is really good since you pay once and then have that bonus for the rest of the games lifetime.
From a business perspective it is actually really bad for the long run. You may get huge sums upfront but you have to take that into account and spread that revenue over a long period of time so as to not delude oneself. There is also the permanent reduction of revenue after the clump sum has been "spent" (when compared to monthly payments) due to the player still having all those bonuses, especially in regards to stipends of cash-shop currencies.
Is there any game that has offered lifetime subscriptions still running?
I know STO did, but they were bought out though. Everything else I can think of that did is dead I believe.

An excellent, informative post - nicely done. One question - what is the picture? I can't lighten my screen enough to make out the details and don't have the wherewithal to play with the picture in an editor on this computer, but it looks vaguely like a robot/armor toon standing in line at a retailer that's closed for the evening.

Sorry if I missed this in the article or the forum but with the Booster Pack Bonus Item will it be possible to get a duplicate of an item I already have? If so do I get nothing or do I get a Star value or something else?

They are not items, but unlocks. As such you cannot get a duplicate

Color me skeptical, but if the extra bonus random item is truly random, how can you ensure it will not be something we've already unlocked?

Because it is an unlock. It's not "pull from full table of contents" but "random selection from account's lock-table". Add in-game currency, bonuses like double XP time, extra character slot, or stars to that bonus drop, and even if you have everything unlocked, you still get something.

—

Technical Director

Read enough Facebook and you have to make Sanity Checks. I guess FB is the Great Old One of the interent these days... - Beamrider

An excellent, informative post - nicely done. One question - what is the picture? I can't lighten my screen enough to make out the details and don't have the wherewithal to play with the picture in an editor on this computer, but it looks vaguely like a robot/armor toon standing in line at a retailer that's closed for the evening.

It's a robot standing in line at a retailer that's closed for the evening.

—

Technical Director

Read enough Facebook and you have to make Sanity Checks. I guess FB is the Great Old One of the interent these days... - Beamrider

It's a robot standing in line at a retailer that's closed for the evening.

best. black friday sale. ever.

I hope to see the NPC AI capable of producing protestors who understand the threat, if not the irony, of AI and demonstrate their fear/pain/anger by picketing out front while carrying placards that read 'first they took our jerbs, now they're taking our stuff'