1. Here's one of the best things I saw on Facebook:

Christianity: Sending telepathic messages to a Jewish ghost letting him know that you will accept him as your master and ask him to remove a magical curse that was passed down to you because an old woman that was made from the rib of her partner ate a piece of magical fruit from a magical tree because a talking snake told her to.

229. Voldermort was loosely based off the concept of a lich.

J.K. Rowling changed the terms around. Substituting the older term of Phylactery which was a device a lich used to store it's sole for her term of Horcrux. Is it clear I spend way too much time on this stuff?

257. And Xians eat the (symbolic) body & blood of Jeebus.

323. inaccurate

They don't all practice communion, only certain denominations do. That's like saying all Muslims are Sunni, not even close to being true. This is why it pays to have some education on the things you claim that you don't care about; but, seem to have an uncontrollable urge to make fun of all of the time.

I had a science teacher who use to make fun of Star Trek all of the time; but, all the things he remarked about as being implausible, either exist now or are popular theories in modern science. I bet he retired from comedy.

265. So, if Santa didn''t exist, there wouldn't be a reason to buy presents for lived ones?

266. Without Santa Claus mythology, there would be no reason for kids to have unreasonable expectations

While Santa may have started as a real saint (St. Nicholas) or an old Europe folk figure who gave out fruits or small gifts (Father Christmas, Sinterklaas), the American Santa Claus has become the symbol of consumerism run rampant. Holiday greed becomes "good" greed as children are encouraged to ask for more than they possibly can use (or than their parents can afford) since "Santa Claus" will be paying the tab. Parents who can't (or won't) deliver the goods risk having their children feel rejected by this great mythological creature, who gave expensive video games to their friends but not to them.

There is a reason that the retail sector relies on the semiotics of Santa Claus. Santa Claus appeals to children and makes their greed OK. Parents do not want to risk their children's sadness at being slighted by Santa Claus and will spend money they don't have. Macy's, Toys R Us, and Target make a fortune.

324. well actually

I know many religious families who do not practice traditional holidays and in the last decade I have seen the numbers increase. It's not that they don't believe in the message of those holidays; they just see them for what they are in society. A glorified marketing scheme. I happen to agree with their views. It's funny when you can come eye to eye with religious folks, when you aren't religious yourself like I am.

286. The semiotics of the Coca-Cola created Santa image is very clear

Think about how the Santa Claus myth actually operates at Christmas, how it encourages juvenile greed and consumerism. Greed becomes a good thing for children at Christmas because, after all, the gifts are on "Santa's" dime and kids can ask big. Overextended parents are forced to spend money they don't have to satisfy this greed because they have to preserve the illusion that "Santa Claus" is giving the child what he or she deserves for being good. If parents can't financially afford the Santa illusion, their children wonder why Santa gave their friends video games and computers but left them socks.

292. Santa is only about that if you let it

My kids never dictated what we bought for them. They never got what they wanted just because Santa said so. When they were little we would generally get several gifts for each of them. Christmas and birthdays were usually the only time of the year we bought them toys. But now that they are older they don't get many gifts, and we don't buy presents for adults either. This year we are buying our son two video games and we are giving our daughter some cash because she is saving for a car. That is all we are spending on Christmas.

148. It should be noted

That the figure of Santa Claus far, far predates modern, corporate, commercial christmas. Though Santa first appears in the States around 1820, the figure most directly derives from the Dutch Sinterklaas has been around since the 16th century, who in turn is based on St Nicolas (" Saint Nick"), a 13th century Christian figure. As well, certain parts of the Santa mythos are based on myths about Odin - during the Yule, he would lead a hunting party through the sky (a sleigh pulled by reindeer), for example.

287. The precursors to the corporate Santa did not require parents to buy tons of gifts in his name

The precursors were Sinterflaas, Father Christmas, and other related old male figures (often representing winter or the old passing year). In towns and villages, an older male might dress up as Father Christmas (or similar character) and give out pieces of fruit or a few candies.

The modern corporate Santa is a creation of American marketing (see Coca Cola, Santa, image) and exists for the sheer purpose of parting parents from their hard-earned (or borrowed) money. Santa Claus is what keeps kids asking for many expensive gifts (based on commercials they see). Since the gifts are "on Santa's dime" the kids can indulge their greed. Parents then must go and buy at least some of these items, often on credit cards, to preserve the illusion of Santa Claus. In hard times, parents are hard pressed to explain to their children why Santa gave so little to them but brought expensive electronics to their friends.

I am all for ending the myth of Santa Claus. It supports corporate profits and undermines real values.

25. I agree. I think this billboard was not well thought out.

31. It's quite simplistic in its thinking, actually

I would have had more respect for them if they had put up a sign telling people to use the holiday to help out the needy and less fortunate, a value that everyone shares, regardless of religion or lack thereof. If they had said, "You don't need a religion to help others during the season" with a picture of people helping the homeless, I could have really gotten behind the sentiment.

This billboard, to me, sounds more like, "Dump your God, but keep your reason for spending."

216. It's not just about you, I think

There's a real anger towards religion, some of it warranted and some of it not. It gets taken out on anyone who expresses support for religious sentiments or who (at least) doesn't come out swinging against such sentiments. What these folks tend to forget is that Dr. Martin Luther King, Gandhi, Malcolm X (in later life), Dorothy Day, and much of the anti-war movement all came from a spiritual/religious base. True social reform starts with the notion that we are our brothers' keepers and that caring for others is a major spiritual responsibility.

221. Unfortunately, I think you're right

One has to say "liberal Christian" these days to get any traction. What people don't understand is that the so-called Christian right is a creation of the political far right, probably as an inoculation against the very social justice aspect of Christianity that we are discussing.

People don't understand that William F. Buckley Jr. (remember young Americans for Freedom?) funneled a ton of money into on-campus conservative Christian groups. The Campus Crusade for Christ came out of that. If I recall correctly, William F. Buckley's Young America Foundation (which has outlived his death) is the single largest off-campus funder of on-campus activities, completely dwarfing all other off-campus donors.

When so-called Christian media supports drone attacks on children or openly advocates for the killing of a foreign president, they are no longer Christian but political activists, and not of a moral kind.

211. Someone who is not a theist (an atheist or agnostic) would also be lacking in objectivity

I don't know who could rightly be considered "objective" on this kind of thing.

Also, I don't believe it is necessary to be "objective" to have an opinion. After all, the stronger one's opinion on a thing, the more opportunity there is for bias. People will react to things in the way they will. What matters is how people talk across the divide. If one is thoughtful and respectful, using terms like "misses the mark" instead of "sucks like a motherfucker," then a conversation can occur. If one acknowledges the complexity of the issue and respects one's interlocutor instead of yelling, "stupid" and "it's over your head" then one can talk across the divide.

So far, the "avowed and outspoken Theist" has been thoughtful and respectful, while the non-Theist side has responded with ad hominem attacks and emotional jabs. That says a lot.

262. Santa

Is the gateway drug to Christianity. Once you get the kids to fear the invisible one's judgment, tell
them he knows if they've been bad or good. It's easy to transition to an all knowing, all judging invisible
deity. A lump of coal to an eternity in Hell.

There are plenty of Xmas Specials, Songs and Iconography where Santa rewards the smallest things. Santa is about a whimsical spirit of the season in which children are taught to be on their best behavior and to give to others rather than worry about receiving and "give" doesn't necessarily mean buy. It's a universally peaceful and wonderful message.

Just because he's been used in ads doesn't change what he stands for. And people like you royally fucking ruin Christmas with your finger pointing about the purity of the message.

124. So... are you dumb, then??

The family gets together for a nice feast. Golly, what horrific commercialism!!!

If you think removing the religion requires buying lots of presents, you are doing it wrong.

Sounds to me like you're confusing Thanksgiving and christmas. Thanksgiving is a time to gather with family, enjoy a great feast and not have to worry about religion or buying lots of presents.

As an Atheist, this billboard is telling me that Santa is real, so expect a lot of presents, and jesus is a myth, so leave him out of it and don't worry about him. Your mileage may vary...

A few years ago, on here, I coined the term "Hatetheism". There's a fine line between an Atheist and Hatetheist, in my not so humble opinion. As an Atheist, though I may reject the notion of a supernatural, paranormal, extra-terrestrial Supreme Being, I am tolerant of, and I respect the right of others to believe to believe in, and worship, this Being. Hatetheists, on the other hand, have zero tolerance, or respect, for the rights of others to choose to believe and/or worship as they see fit.

Can we PLEASE just stop the hate and intolerance and focus on the Peace, Love, Tolerance and Happiness of *EVERYONE*??

145. Santa does not automatically equal commercialism.

Just because some corporations co-opted a non-trademarkable image into their advertising doesn't change that Santa represents a peaceful loving character to children who teaches kids to be on their best behavior and that giving to others is more important than receiving for yourself (a rather liberal point of view).

But since you're so wrapped up in your hatred for commercialism (which by the way, if people did refrain completely from it, exactly how would our economy work? No spending of money means no jobs which means we're all fucked) that you refuse to see that Santa is altruistic in his makeup.

I suppose I should hate all fucking Gecko lizards because Geico uses one to hock bullshit overpriced insurance.

306. Please show me where I claimed that.

308. Can't read your own thread responses?

For your claims to make any sense requires a massive quantity of gifts. One present doesn't turn the holiday into a commercial extravaganza. Yet your claim is that by replacing Christ with Santa, the holiday becomes only about commercialism.

Even if your intention was to object to gifts at all, you are utterly ignoring the fact that according to myth Santa doesn't bring presents to everyone, just the "good girls and boys".

315. You claimed I said something I didn't

I was often rotten as a kid (and knew it) but still go t a lot of presents.

I was a kid before Wal-mart and expected one small gift at the family gathering but expected a lot more under the Xmas tree.

Please show me where the Christmas myth is officially defined and then you will possibly have credibility on that argument. And if the "myth" isn't followed in practice, why would it be relevant in discussing how people interpret the ad? Do kids who are naughty actually believe they will not get presents under the tree?

46. That spiritual part has been working so very, very well so far, too!

60. Dump the commercial and dump the spiritual.

People celebrate birthdays just fine BOTH without spending a fortune AND with no any "spiritual" overtones. The same goes for other holidays like Thanksgiving, Mothers Day and Fathers Day, New Years, Veterans Day, Memorial Day...etc.

276. it doesn't actually say that nt

10. I don't care whether it's 100% accurate; I love the story.

The stable, the manger, no room at the inn, the shepherds watching their flocks in the snow, the 3 wise men, etc., on December 25 in the year 0000, all makes for a great story. I'm not sure why the atheists feel so threatened by it that they feel the need to buy a billboard ad to counteract it.

20. the funny thing is, the Christians who whine about the billboard in the first post

wholly support those billboards.

As a Christian who believes in the freedom of speech, I have no problem with any of those billboards. Unlike many who call themselves Christian, I follow the actual teachings of Jesus: loving your neighbor, helping the poor, and being a peacemaker.

101. I spent a good part of 2011 as an Over The Road trucker traveling the lower 48. Never saw a single

103. If God and I are different, then a larger 'understanding' is needed for us to have a relation

Christians: people who believe that an infinite, limitless God resides in a place, Heaven (must be bigger than infinite) and never goes to another place, hell (must be located outside of the limitless).

All "things" have to originate from "no thing"; to think otherwise is to believe that the creator is just one more thing.

32. Why do religious people feel threatened by atheists?

37. I don't. But some certainly do.

A MOB attacked Alexander Aan even before an Indonesian court in June jailed him for two and a half years for “inciting religious hatred”. His crime was to write “God does not exist” on a Facebook group he had founded for atheists in Minang, a province of the world’s most populous Muslim nation. Like most non-believers in Islamic regions, he was brought up as a Muslim. And like many who profess godlessness openly, he has been punished.

77. Do not suppose that I have come to bring peace to the earth.

"Do not suppose that I have come to bring peace to the earth. I did not come to bring peace, but a sword.

"But those enemies of mine who did not want me to be king over them--bring them here and kill them in front of me.'"

"Salvation is found in no one else, for there is no other name under heaven given to men by which we must be saved."

"If anyone comes to me and does not hate his father and mother, his wife and children, his brothers and sisters--yes, even his own life--he cannot be my disciple.

Let's see calls to violence and war, calls to kill whoever does not bow. A cult like devotion where one's family should be cut off if they don't believe. Oh, and a single path to salvation wherein everyone who does not believe will burn forever. Jesus was among the worst of humanity's religious leaders in terms of calling for violence and intolerance. I'm sorry Jesus was a pretty poor moral leader. Give me Buddha anyday.

81. That's my problem with moderate Christianity.

It does not make any sense. If you accept the Bible as the word of God and everything in it as true then you really can't compromise. Either God does demand that you worship him or go to hell or he doesn't. There is no middle-ground in any religion that preaches a single God and an eternal destination after this life on earth. Either everyone who does not believe will go to hell or they won't. If you truly believe what the Bible says about Jesus, salvation, God, etc. then you can't be a moderate. In Revelation Jesus himself says that lukewarm faith is worse than no faith. Moderate Christianity and Islam simply don't make sense if you truly believe what the religion teaches.

194. All depends on your definition of supernatural.

I accept effective immateriality as a component of the universe, so in the strictest sense I accept "an order of existence beyond the visible observable universe." I remain, however, somewhat mystified at the relevance of this to the original point.

102. "A cult like devotion where one's family should be cut off if they don't believe."

Wow. You just described a not insignificant number of posters here at DU and how they feel about the political inclinations of their own Moms, Dads, Brothers, Sisters, and others in their very own families.

111. Zactly. We differ on which we believe is the worst though...

I haven't encountered in my life, either in person or through the media, a politician I'd piss on if they were on fire. That's how little respect I have for ALL politicians. I can honestly say I can't remember voting FOR someone rather than either voting against someone or for the lesser of x number of evils. I think EGO is what drives people to politics.

I have however met atheists, agnostics, and those who profess one religion or another that I thought were completely honorable, compassionate, and/or filled with empathy. Other side of the coin: I've met people from the aforementioned three groups whose burning bodies I wouldn't waste my urine on.

Bottom line for me: I think you'd find more honest people in a discussion of religion/atheism/agnosticism than you would a discussion with politicians.

151. That's all well and good

But centuries-long invasions of the middle east and a millenia of inter-state warfare in Europe, largely predicated by religion, say otherwise. And, of course, the racism, suppression of knowledge and freedom, church sponsered torture and murder...etc, etc.

186. How is your point made?

I have no religious beliefs, and am not an adherent of any religion.

People have been engaged in death, destruction and suffering because that's what people do once they organize according to almost any social structure. Inevitably, be it a tribe, nation, or whatever, they collide with others, believe that others who are not part of their clan, tribe, nation, or whatever, are a threat, and engage in wars.

What is unique about Christianity in that regard?

In fact, it is the belief in the superiority of one's group - whatever it is - that leads to this sort of thing, through a process of attributing "bad characteristics" to others.

For example, you assert that your opinion is incomprehensible to people who believe in religion. I do not believe in any religion, and yet I still disagree with you.

Simply put, whenever any group believes they are somehow immune to doing horrific things, they inexorably commence to do them.

320. that is the most absurd thing I have ever read, other than that billboard

How could someone even type that with a straight face? If you even remotely studied history, you would know that statement is so far gone from reality, that you might as well include it in an episode of Star Trek. Plagues have killed more people in a decade than all the wars on earth combined. Communism has attributed to over 100,000,000 deaths on just under 6 decades; yet, you are naming Christianity is the greatest threat to humanity ever? Delusional much? Doesn't surprise me though; most of the outspoken atheists are just sad people with an unhealthy complex. The atheists who aren't constantly whining for attention don't have a problem with religion; because, it doesn't effect their daily lives. Do you even know what the leading cause of death is in the world? It's cardiovascular disease. Darn those religious nuts for making everyone not do exercise and eat like pigs! *sarcasm*

321. Agreed ^^

The chaos we see in society is attributed to human instincts. Humans fight for what we perceive as necessities and when we become greedy or afraid we seek out more of the stuff we want. This can be anything! There was a time when people murdered each other for piles of colored ore, now we murder each other for underground pools of black stuff. Anyone attributing all the chaos in the world to religion is simply fooling themselves. Even a devout priest is capable of throwing their beliefs aside to quell the human urges that boil inside of us all. More often than not though, someone will come along and misrepresent a system of beliefs, tarnishing it. For instance, anyone with a shred of logic knows that the Westboro Baptist Church does not represent the beliefs or intentions of every Christian. They are a bunch of extremists that have nothing but ill intent. To claim all Christians are the same would be pure bigotry, something many notable atheists are well known for; such as, Richard Dawkins.

Don't let one bad apple spoil the reputation of everyone. I've met people on opposite ends of the spectrum from both stand points. There are those who use their beliefs to do good for the world, by committing constructive acts. Then there are those who just want to tarnish on everyone else, as a means of soothing their inadequacies in life. One leads to progress, the other doesn't.

22. it's all about freedom of speech.

If fundamentalist Christians can put up anti-atheism billboards, then atheists should be allowed to put up atheists billboards as well. I don't think atheists are out to make "converts", they are just trying to get a point across.

109. Judge not lest ye be judged?

86. Hi. Why are you so persistently contentious, belittling and dismissive in any discussion

with other DU members who may hold a different point of view than you? I see that you think Christianity is one of the most destructive forces known to humanity. I see your point. Is there no further discussion you're interested in beyond that? Or any discussion at all?

215. All advertising for a cause of some sort is technically evangelism.

In a broad sense, you are right. They are "evangelizing" a way of thinking, saying you can have fun and still celebrate during this time of year without accepting a mythological character as a literal living entity.

When complaining about evangelism though, the level of evangelism (and of course the lack of an equal playing field) by Christians is the real complaint. They usually aren't using the broad webster's dictionary definition of the word. That would be speaking out against anyone trying to convince people of any kind of science or philosophical viewpoint (valid or not) in existence. Evangelism does have dictionary definitions referring specifically to Christianity though.

19. Atheists wrap Anchorage buses in ads saying "Imagine no religion"

On your next drive through Anchorage you may find yourself confronted with a handful of areligious commandments. Statements like "Sleep in on Sundays," "Enjoy Life Now There is No Afterlife," "Imagine No Religion" and "Yes, Virginia ... There Is No God" will grace the sides of PeopleMover buses throughout the month of December, compliments of the Wisconsin-based Freedom from Religion Foundation.

“Christians tend to think 'they own the month of December. We don't agree. No month is free from pagan reverie!'" the foundation said in a press release about the ad campaign, quoting the group's co-president, Dan Barker, a former minister-turned atheist.

The missives are meant to be fun and light-hearted, a seasonal celebration of reason over religion. Billboards or bus signs have been installed at various times in nearly half the states in the nation, in FFRF's public relations effort to promote free thought.

“We think if people would imagine no religion, we would have a world free of religious strife,” explained co-president Annie Laurie Gaylor, noting that persecution, holy wars and even modern day terrorism have religion at their core.

219. I don't see how someone who is not hostile toward atheists would suddenly be filled with rage.

Of course some who are already hostile to atheists will become more hostile. That's the natural reaction of simple minded intellectual cowards when someone they don't like exercises their freedom of speech to try and give their viewpoint equal exposure.

I'm also not seeing what's so "mean" about suggesting that mythology should be left out of holiday celebrations. I don't necessarily agree, but it doesn't feel like any kind of attack.

Anyway, I actually like some of the Christmas mythology (both the Christian and rebranded non-Christian myths and traditions). Santa Claus, stockings hung over the fireplace, decorated tree and lights, elves, angels, and other mythological magical critters... it's all part of my holiday celebrations. Being with family and exchanges a few gifts are enjoyable to me too. So though I see they are trying to communicate how unimportant Jesus is to enjoying the holiday, I feel they missed their mark a bit with the message.

89. I agree. nt

104. This atheist agrees

I am very confused by atheists who believe that they need to confront religion and people who practice it.
I have no reason to care what anyone else believes what happens to their own soul and how they want to get right with their god. Their mythology is their business. And I definitely don't care what anyone thinks about me going to a hell I don't believe in. The fact is, there are more of them than me and I see no reason to throw my thoughts about it in their face.

Why would someone who disagrees with them feel the need to involve themselves in the personal beliefs of other people when most of us want to be free to not be a part of religion?

120. I'll Tell You Why...

The other day I was asked why I should concern myself with the beliefs of others. I mean...why do I even care what other people believe? It's simple.

When Fundementalist Christains are in my government making policy that will impact my life as well as the lives of my children, you better believe I'm going to have something to say. If religious people would keep their beliefs to themselves, I would have no problem. But they tend to want everyone to believe as they do...in doing so, they force me to act against them.

122. Here's one answer to your question

149. Not seeing the connection to what I was talking about

The sign is not an affront only to evangelical fundamentalists. It targets my friend and family who hold their beliefs in the mythology of christianity dear. It is their justification for opposing war and the death penalty. Some are pro-choice, some aren't. My grandma believes in a young earth, but my aunt doesn't. I respect their beliefs and they respect mine.
A single sign is not going to reform the public school system. It will, however lead to pain and defensiveness among people of faith.

173. Jeez

People are attached to their beliefs in god. They know you can't prove it, all they have to go on is their personal conviction. Telling people they should doubt what gives them hope and comfort is illogical and insensitive.
I would expect fellow atheists to be secure enough in their personal beliefs that they feel no need to publish them. The whole point of disbelief is that there is nothing to say about it. This kind of anger and defensiveness among atheists comes off as a belief system that is every bit as rigid as that of the most strident evangelicals.

260. Really?

"according to you I should never reveal that I am an atheist" No distinction between attacking other people's beliefs and passively mentioning your own? Unless of course you find impossible to mention your beliefs without trying to convert, and I doubt that is the case.

I have family members who are mormon, catholic, fundie, mainstream protestant, and friends who are Muslim, Jewish..... They don't make any effort to convert me, and I return the favor. I also have friends who are atheist. We all know it but there really isn't a whole lot to say about it. To me that's the nature of non belief.

297. talk to some young people

There are young atheists and young Christians who hang out together and are friends and who are respectful and tolerant of one another. I know. My daughter is an atheist and she has many Christian friends and they all know she is atheist.

168. "Their mythology is their business." - If that were the reality of the world, you would have a point

But "their mythology is their business" really means it is their BUSINESS, as in, that's what they do. When they stop drafting legislation based on "their mythology", when they stop trying to teach "their mythology" in public schools, and when "their mythology" is no longer granted privileged status above all others, then you will have a point.

201. A public she sign is directed at public consumption

Not policy discussions. The "they" you are referring to are people in leadership positions. If you want to have discussions with them, why not do it tastefully as opposed to attacking the beliefs of people who lean on a mythology for comfort and guidance.
I have had conversations with clergy about my passive atheism. We had good conversations because no one was there to convince the other and no one got defensive. In fact, they had some of the same concerns as I about the institution of religion.

It's possible to challenge an institution without offending or diminishing the personal beliefs of people with whom you disagree.

296. your post is the best post of the thread

My daughter is an atheist. She tries not to be militant about it. She fights for her freedoms but also tries to be respectful and tolerant. She has a lot of friends and family that she loves to be around too much to let their religion get in the way of having a relationship with them. One of her best friends in the whole world is Christian, and they all get along. She has many Christian friends. None of them fight over religion or lack thereof. It is always the young people who make the biggest difference in this world. They form friendships with people who are different than they are. It is they who bridge the gap and change hearts. It is they who change the world.

310. I have heard right wingers

complain about the expense of those trees! I kid you not! They will find something wrong, somehow! Now that you've pointed that out, I'm going to say to the next one that point that at least they are celebrating Christmas and not making war on it and watch their heads explode. How can a Muslim celebrate Christmas?

88. It would, but people view the Nativity scene with such affection that

99. There's a parade where I live close to Thanksgiving and Easter.

We have this church which has former Hells Angels in it. They're a good church. They help those who have probs with substance abuse and such. Anyway, their float every year is Jesus on the cross. I just keep thinking to myself "It's not Easter!"

150. Ermmm.. have you seen where atheists rank in tests of religious knowledge?

It's not at the "ignorant" end by the way. The myth is the whole story, which incidentally does not even mention the time of year of the birth of Jesus, except to mention the shepherds were living outside with their flocks - which would not happen in midwinter.

87. god, protect me from your followers!

“The true beauty of the season—family, friends, and love—have nothing to do with the gods of yesteryear. Indeed, the season is far more enjoyable without the religious baggage of guilt and judgmentalism. Dump the myth and have a happy holiday season.”

123. Few adults base their political opinions on a profound belief in Santa Claus

Whereas there are a great many adults who base their politics on a profound belief in Jesus Christ.

That can be a not entirely pleasant thing to contemplate for people who think Santa and Biblical Jesus are of roughly equal likelihood.

An adult who actually seriously believed in the existence of Santa Claus and thought that Santa does all the things attributed to Him would be thought quite mad in our culture.

If you were as certain as you are that Santa is just a myth and lived in a culture where the majority of adults thought Santa was real you'd look a bit askance at the believers sometimes too when they just have to tell you all about the invisible and ineffable presents Santa is leaving under their tree on Christmas morning and that yes, He really *does* climb down the chimney that their apartment doesn't happen to have in order to leave those presents.

Who knows, maybe if your vehicle had been vandalized by Santaists who hated your bumper sticker that dared to imply Santa was not real maybe you'd be even a bit scared of Santaists.

144. The difference is one is a fairy tale people know is made up, the other fairy tale

267. How many laws have been

passed by people believing in Santa? How many women go without health care do to old Saint Nick? Has Claus
mentioned homosexuality is an abomination. When these things happen I'll be against this fictional character too.

96. Is this really the most positive message?

They could said something like 'don't need a God to be giving' or something along those lines. I think they'd get more bang for their buck promoting the idea non theist are no less moral, rather mocking others.

100. Some group ran that kind of ad on buses

in Fort Worth, Texas a couple of years ago. "Millions of Americans are Good Without God." was what they said. I was living in an adjacent city at the time, and I remember it well. The religious folks (not all of them, of course, but a lot of them) raised an incredible stink over it, calling it a blantant attack on their beliefs, and calling for boycotts and such. The beseiged transit authority then decided to ban all ads with any religious content whatsoever. So, they succeeded in shutting down the atheists' ads, but now churches and other religious groups can't advertise on buses, either. Everyone loses, because the message "Millions of Americans are Good Without God" was just too offensive.

119. Oh the horror!! The poor Christians must feel so put-upon.

Maybe they could put up some of their own billboards or put signs in front of their churches or even declare national holidays for their special days. They must feel overwhelmed by this breach in their defenses. The souls that were lost because of that sign is a tragedy. No one should ever have to deal with conflicting ideas. How is anyone going to know the truth of the bible if someone is going to bring up conflicting ideas and actually make them think.

129. Good Evidence That Jesus Was A Myth Created By The Romans

130. I have no problem with the board but why feed the idiots at FOX?

This sort of thing just feeds the crazies at Fox and their yearly stupid war on Christmas propaganda ploy. It is something I can totally ignore since my television blocks FOX but am forced to listen to war on Christmas drivel from the various GOP relatives with whom I still speak. It would not surprise me someone at FOX funded or suggested this sign.

The radical Christian fringe is bad enough why don't they pick on other religions say Jews, Muslims, or say Animist.

If you do want to pick on a religious belief I suggest attack the religious idea that tax cuts to the ultra wealthy creates job and trickle down economics is in the best interest of the middle class.

138. Everyone has "myths," even atheists. Not polite to rub it in people's faces.

It is also not polite for evangelical Christians to rub their religion in our faces by insisting we say "Merry Christmas" instead of "Happy Holidays." We can all agree on celebrating the spirit of Christmas, which is peace on earth and good will toward other people. No need for anyone to get belligerent about it, which is against that spirit, whether done by an atheist or an evangelical Christian.

199. Not saying atheists share the same myths. How did you get that?

Atheism means they just don't believe in a deity. Doesn't mean that atheists don't have other myths. If you don't believe atheists can have myths, just read about Leninism. The Bolsheviks considered Lenin to be infallible. Sure sounds like a myth to me. Maoism had similar myths about Mao. There are right wing atheists who had myths as well. Ayn Rand was an atheist. She certainly promoted a grand organizing myth known as Objectivism and its corollary Laissez-faire capitalism.

231. I tend to lean towards him existing, but the links are pretty worthless on their own.

Maybe Bart Ehrman's book lays down a good argument, so I'll make a not of it and see if I can get it from the library, but there is not a single shred of evidence in either link for or against. It's basically an ad for his book without a single mention of any specific historical source whatsoever.

156. This is true. I did not claim there was.

225. The date, place, holiday, miracles, words he supposedly said...

Honestly, I don't know of any particularly good evidence he existed as an actual ordinary man either. The only references I've seen beyond the bible are still quite awhile after he would have been around, and basically are nothing but a couple of ancient historians referencing Christian myths about him. So the evidence I'm aware of (though I'm not a historian) seems to be self referential to mythology.

233. Not sure I understand

What sources are you talking about?

The sources that I'm aware of aren't problematic or contradictory in that they are either too vague to be sure who they are taling about with dates that don't match up to when he should have been alive, or are very likely a simple repetition of early Christian claims (Like Tacitus talking about him being crucified during the reign of Tiberius).

245. The Gospels, letters, etc. have many

events or quotes that Jesus supposedly said that don't add up to the claims of Christianity or Jewish antiquity (temple Judaism) and do not serve the themes of the Church as we have come to know it. Since they do not serve what Christians are trying to say, but are repeated by biblical sources, they may have some validity to the historical Jesus instead of the Jesus of the Church.

171. There is? Can you point me to where I might see this ecidence for myself?

181. Here ya go.

Virtually all modern scholars of antiquity agree that Jesus existed, and biblical scholars and classical historians regard theories of his non-existence as effectively refuted. While there is little agreement on the historicity of gospel narratives and their theological assertions of his divinity most scholars agree that Jesus was a Galilean Jew who was born between 7 and 2 BC and died 30–36 AD. Most scholars hold that Jesus lived in Galilee and Judea, did not preach or study elsewhere and that he spoke Aramaic and may have also spoken Hebrew and Greek. Although scholars differ on the reconstruction of the specific episodes of the life of Jesus, the two events whose historicity is subject to "almost universal assent" are that he was baptized by John the Baptist and was crucified by the order of the Roman Prefect Pontius Pilate.

192. More (actual books as opposed to the internet)......

^ a b c In a 2011 review of the state of modern scholarship, Bart Ehrman (now a secular agnostic who was formerly Evangelical) wrote: "He certainly existed, as virtually every competent scholar of antiquity, Christian or non-Christian, agrees" B. Ehrman, 2011 Forged : writing in the name of God ISBN 978-0-06-207863-6. page 285

^ Robert M. Price (a Christian atheist who denies the existence of Jesus) agrees that this perspective runs against the views of the majority of scholars: Robert M. Price "Jesus at the Vanishing Point" in The Historical Jesus: Five Views edited by James K. Beilby & Paul Rhodes Eddy, 2009 InterVarsity, ISBN 028106329X page 61

^ a b Michael Grant (a classicist) states that "In recent years, 'no serious scholar has ventured to postulate the non historicity of Jesus' or at any rate very few, and they have not succeeded in disposing of the much stronger, indeed very abundant, evidence to the contrary." in Jesus: An Historian's Review of the Gospels by Micjhael Grant 2004 ISBN 1898799881 page 200

^ a b Richard A. Burridge states: "There are those who argue that Jesus is a figment of the Church’s imagination, that there never was a Jesus at all. I have to say that I do not know any respectable critical scholar who says that any more." in Jesus Now and Then by Richard A. Burridge and Graham Gould (Apr 1, 2004) ISBN 0802809774 page 34

278. I would challenge any historian that used the bible as a valid source to support an assertion

about historical events. While there may be particular factoids, especially about a small geographical area, it has nothing even remotely accurate as an historical record. It is nonsense. The number of things written in it about events of the time that are just plain wrong or never happened is enough to discredit it as a whole.

328. That's a false conclusion

People have been pulling the bible apart for thousands of years and have failed to discredit it as a whole. Almost every battle, person and geographical location described has been confirmed, through ages worth of cross referenced resources and careful archaeological study. Even if only 50% of the Bible could be accounted for, that's enough to consider it a good source for historical data. For thousands of years people thought the events in the Iliad were nothing more than mythology. Historians know better now, after uncovering loads of physical evidence on the topic.

In ancient history Jesus had more of his life accounted for than any other person. Oddly enough, some people seem to think he didn't exist. These are usually the same people who also believe the holocaust was made up despite countless witnesses and physical evidence. Religious people are suppose to be the delusional ones who elude reality. Ironic.

312. It's not just bible sources there are Roman historial

works that are highly regarded.

The writings of the 1st century Romano-Jewish historian Flavius Josephus include references to Jesus and the origins of Christianity. Josephus' Antiquities of the Jews, written around 93–94 AD, includes two references to Jesus in Books 18 and 20.
Of the two passages the James passage in Book 20 is used by scholars to support the existence of Jesus, the Testimonium Flavianum in Book 18 his crucifixion. Josephus' James passage not only attests to the existence of Jesus as a historical person but that some of his contemporaries considered him the Messiah.

The passage deals with the death of "James the brother of Jesus" in Jerusalem, and given that works of Josephus refer to at least twenty different people with the name Jesus, Josephus clarifies that this Jesus was the one "who was called Christ". Louis Feldman states that this passage, above others, indicates that Josephus did say something about Jesus.
Modern scholarship has almost universally acknowledged the authenticity of the reference in Book 20, Chapter 9, 1 of the Antiquities to "the brother of Jesus, who was called Christ, whose name was James" and considers it as having the highest level of authenticity among the references of Josephus to Christianity.

The Roman historian and senator Tacitus referred to Christ, his execution by Pontius Pilate and the existence of early Christians in Rome in his final work, Annals (written ca. AD 116), book 15, chapter 44.
Scholars generally consider Tacitus's reference to the execution of Jesus by Pontius Pilate to be both authentic, and of historical value as an independent Roman source about early Christianity that is in unison with other historical records. Eddy and Boyd state that it is now "firmly established" that Tacitus provides a non-Christian confirmation of the crucifixion of Jesus. Although a few scholars question the passage given that Tacitus was born 25 years after Jesus's death, the majority of scholars consider it genuine. William L. Portier has stated that the consistency in the references by Tacitus, Josephus and the letters to Emperor Trajan by Pliny the Younger reaffirm the validity of all three accounts.

317. Christians will point to the Annals by Tacitus.

In the Annals XV,44, Tacitus describes how Nero blamed the Christians for the fire of Rome in 64 C.E. He mentions that the name "Christians" originated from a person named Christus who had been executed by Pontius Pilate during the reign of Tiberias. It is certainly true that the name "Christians" is derived from Christ or Christus (Messiah), but Tacitus' claim that he was executed by Pilate during the reign of Tiberias is based purely on the claims being made by the Christians themselves. They appeared in the gospels of Mark, Matthew and Luke, which had already been widely circulated when the Annals were being written. (The Annals were published after 115 C.E. and were certainly not written before 110 C.E.) Thus, although the Annals contains a sentence in which "Christus" is spoken of as a real person, this sentence was based purely on Christian claims and beliefs which are of no historical value. It is quite ironic that modern Christians use Tacitus to back up their beliefs since he was the least accurate of all Roman historians. He justifies hatred of Christians by saying that they committed abominations. Besides "Christus" he also speaks of various pagan gods as if they really exist. His summary of Middle East history in his book the Histories is so distorted as to be laughable. We may conclude that his single mention of Christus cannot be taken as reliable evidence of an historical Jesus.

Once Tacitus is dismissed, the Christians will claim that one of the younger Pliny's letters to the emperor Trajan provides evidence of an historical Jesus. (Letters X, 96.) This is nonsense. The letter in question simply mentions that certain Christians had cursed "Christ" to avoid being punished. It does not claim that this Christ really existed. The letter in question was written before Pliny's death in c. 114 C.E. but after he was sent to Bithynia in 111 C.E., probably in the year 112 C.E. Thus it provides nothing more than a confirmation of the trivial fact that around the beginning of the twelfth decade C.E. Christians did not normally curse something called "Christ" although some had done it to avoid punishment. It provides no evidence of an historical Jesus.

319. +infinity!

176. This is why atheists continue to have an image problem.

Unfortunately, even for those atheists who don't feel the need to be confrontational in their, um, non-beliefs and are of the live and left live mindset.

For the record, I'm not offended by the billboard, no am I swayed by it in any direction. It's free speech, free expression, and if they want to waste the large sum of money to put it up there, power to them.

But it does come off as incredibly assholish. And if they want to brand themselves as assholes, well I guess that's their right to--WAIT! WAIT! WAIT!

326. Point taken

If I proclaimed myself an atheist, I would be offended to have someone making me look like an egotistical douche-bag. I can't stand it when religious people throw things like that in people's faces either. Everyone has their own ideas on what makes the universe tick and as much as one side likes to believe they have all the answers, they honestly don't. That leaves plenty of room open for the other half to fill in without either treading on each others territory.

277. no true scotsman nt

270. It would be nice to define one's own beliefs without dumping on someone elses

I'm not and have never been Christian. I get a little tired of having the predominate religion thrust in my face constantly this time of year - which seems to get increasingly longer. But even still, I find that billboard rude, confrontational and unnecessary.

318. Those are so common, they don't attract much attention.

You even have people claiming never to have seen any such billboards or signs. I never know if the people who say that are lying or if they really are that oblivious. Of course, in addition to the signs that slam non-believers, there are the ones that condemn homosexuals, Muslims, women who've had abortions, etc. No one seems to be terribly bothered about those, either, with the exception of the ones from the Westboro Baptist Church.

329. You know what? I'm nearly 50, and I've been hearing neverending noise about how "GOD IS REAL"

for basically the entire fucking time.

So spare me the bullshit hair-tearing and weepy cloth-rending that believers are going to melt into a blubbering pool of wounded emotional hurt if someone dares to occasionally say back, "NO HE'S NOT".

332. I'm just pointing out that there is poutrage over one sign in NYC

and yet religious zealots are never taken to task for advertising their beliefs all over. Atheists usually don't advertise their views in public (this type of sign is still very rare), and are often urged to keep their mouths shut even here on DU, yet religious people are never told to stop rubbing peoples' noses in their beliefs. It's a double standard.