Hey folks. I have not used the 6N1P in my Torii MkIII since I got it. I tried the stock pair a couple weeks ago. I had been playing a 6DJ8 at 11 0'clock on the volume. Putting in the 6N1P I needed to turn it up to about 2 o'clock or more to match the 6DJ8 volume at 11. Also, it began distorting between 2-3 o'clock.

So I thought i just had a bad tube.

Well, I got some new 6N1Ps and they are the same. Pretty much the same results with two sources.

PS: It did not occur to me to check the 6DJ8 at 2-3 o'clock with the same recording. It was too loud to listen to, but it distorted then too. I never listen this loud. So I just changed out all the tubes to be sure. Same results. Caught me off guard.

With quiet source material (some DVDs), I can turn the Torii up all the way.

I don't know will. I suppose that 6N1Ps are a bit quiet in comparison to the other tube types. To be honest I really don't have any of the other tube types on hand, gave the last of mine away with the sale of my last two amps. I'm so enamored of the 6N1P sound that I don't keep the others on hand.

I run my amp's volume all the way up most of the time and have my preamp (PWD as preamp) set between 65 percent and 90 percent or so depending on the source. (DVR set to "Wide" is my lowest output source). My room is bigger perhaps so I do so. There's definitely no distortion in my use in this manner, and when I have the preamp up to 100 percent and the Torii turned all the way up on my "hottest' source input there is a bit of distortion, and it's way too loud to listen.

Got me. If I recall the 6N2P is louder than the 6N1P. And the tubes I am trying are the stock Torii, and two new ones marked on the box 6N1P-EV, and 6N1P-EV cryo from Cryoset. To tell you the truth, I had no idea of this distortion until I tried to turn up the 6N1P to match volume from the 6DJ8. I had been listening loundish. Then the 6N1P just pushed something too hard before i got there.

That level with 6/7 types must always just be too loud for me. My Tranquility is something over 2 volts out, and this was with a pretty hot recording, but the Oppo distorted in a similar area of volume.

I always thought the stock drivers had less gain than 6DJ8's. I question the distortion. What volt regulators are you using? Did you try swapping out those? My speakers are fall in a definate 8 ohm range, did you try switching the impedance controls. when you get the distortion.Walt

Yes with the 6N1P it will distort at the top of my listening range. Oddly, I never seem to get there with 6DJ8, 7DJ8, or 6922. They must just be that much louder without pushing the amp as much.

Walt, I did actually change out all the tubes. I was using Tungsol OB3 and changed to RCA OA3. And I changed from RCA OC2 to Raytheon OC2.

I don't know what is optimal for my HR-ONEs. Not sure if it is the same radial driver as in the ERRs (8ohm) or not, but the other drivers are the same as the MG944 which are 4 ohm. I usually use 4 ohm on the Torii, but I think the distortion did become less obvious on 8 Ohm. Funny thing is I think I hear it most from the driver that is like the 944 bass driver....hard to say though.

I just checked with Steve, and he thought this was fairly normal. That depending on the source output voltage and the source material, that the amp could start to clip as it did for me in the 2-3 o'clock range right up to full volume at about 5 o'clock. And I can turn up the amp fully with DVDs without clipping, so this makes sense. But the Tranquilitie's higher output with hot recordings it can start a little past 2 o'clock.

Interesting that the 6N1P's lower volume output causes me to get it into clip range in order to listen to some things as loud as I would like.

Sorry not to have impressions Lon. Once I heard the distortion, I got caught up in that and didn't really give them a good listen. And since they were not looking particularly optimal in terms of output volume for me, I was not sure if I wanted to trouble with burnin or not.

But I need to do some listening to try to clarify if the volume is good enough for me, and to see what they sound like! I will let you know.

Lon, I did some listening tonight. I am a bit baffled. To get my normal moderate listening levels I am in or close to distortion with the cryo'd 6N1P. I have to turn them up about twice as much as a 7DJ8 to get moderate levels, and loud playing is out of the question. I can hear why you like the 6N1P though. It has a really nice atmospheric vibe, and a smooth and round character without leaving anything out.

The only other new tube I have to compare is a Lorenz labeled Bundeswehr Falcon 7DJ8. Both tubes sound new...a bit veiled and tight, and you can tell they will get more refined, and more extended, especially on the bottom. They actually sound quite similar in many ways. The 6N1P seems to have a bit more upper mid emphasis, and the Lorenz more balanced, but I would not call this quality of the 6N1P unpleasant at all, it adds to its character. Along with the sort of round midrange, and very slightly soft low mids, the balance the tube has a distinctly compelling quality. The Lorenz is generally more articulate and dynamic, and less atmospheric. So I think I hear what you love about the tube. It is nicely revealing with a sweet, relaxed character, and a seductive atmosphere.

If I thought I could get higher listening levels from them, I would pursue the burnin, but for whatever reasons, these tubes are not working in my system. Seems odd to me, and unfortunate. Actually it is difficult to understand that all is well with this amp and these 6N1P tubes. The levels I can get with them are certainly not "show off the the neighbors" levels. Weird. I would have liked to be able to really hear them.

Wow, will, that just seems odd to me. I mean I figure neither of us is trying to shake the walls and crack the foundation, and it would seem that the tubes the amp ships with should be able to meet our needs. The 6N1P does give me the volume I need with headroom as well, and I would think it would you as well. Are you still using the ZStage? The output of my PWD is purportedly 2.8v. I've begun leaving the Torii turned all the way up and regulating output with the PWD and there's plenty of headroom for all my sources. The one limitation is that if I have the audio range on "Wide" on my DVR I can run out of steam on the quietest of the tv channels, but that's easily fixed by selecting "Narrow" and then I can't max out the volume on that input.

I'm very lucky I guess that the 6N1P does give me what I need, as I really find that the tube offers me the right balance for my music collection: it has that forgiving element that allows me to sink into lesser sounding source material, and it's "faults" seem to counteract the "faults" of most of the mediocre to bad cds I spin. And this super-cryo''d version has been the best I've found.

I wonder if Steve has any further insight. It just doesn't seem right the way your set up is behaving with the tube to me. . . .

Will, I guess I am stating the obvious, but here goes. As Steve mentioned and Lon reiterated with his 2.8v output of his Perfect Wave Dac..... . Your output voltage from your source is to LOW. I don't know for sure, but the USB front end your running might just be a little inherently lower volts output. To low for 6N1P's

Lon and I are running Dac's direct to our Amps. I know Lon just started doing this with his PWD. My Audio Alchemy gear was ahead of its time. I can slide the hood off the Dac and adjust the output voltage. I have mine set at 2.8 to 3.2 output volts. I have no issues driving the 6N1P LOUD and clear with SLAM on my Vintage Polk SDA 1's.

To test, you should try a higher voltage output source (NON USB) and what is the listed output voltage of your current source(s)? Or, conversely, you mentioned your Tranquility is running higher output... do you need lower output volts? Anyway, done stating the obvious and my 2 cents. Maybe, forgoing the 6N1P is an easier option.

PS-footnote: I have a remote control to then turn my volume up and down on my AA 3.0 Dac in the digital domain. I have no problem with this fidelity wise, because I use it at the higher end of the volume spectrum to acheive full resolution. Lon, (I guess I could look it up at PS Audio) does you PWD run volume in the digital domain or analog?

First, I am running DAC straight to Torii too. The USB is from computer to DAC. The USB output is maxed at the computer Audio out as is usual for USB out to DAC for transparency, bypassing internal processing. And I have a software player, Pure Music, that has a good dithered digital 'Pre' that some use, but I prefer the volume flat (no software volume processing). This does however give me a digital "pre."

I believe the Tranquility is about 2.2 volts, so not particularly low, but certainly lower than the two of you. The other source I tried is a modded Oppo, which I believe it about 2 volts out as well. The Oppo is going through the ZSTAGE so I can change the output voltage there, but have it set roughly at matched volume to the Tranquility, so presumably it is about 2.2 out.

Especially based on the output voltages you two are using, and that you can get loud playback with the 6N1P, I think my thing is very odd too. I don't have a Db meter, but I don't think I listen outrageously loud. With 6DJ8, 6922, or 7DJ8, I usually listen from about 9 o'clock to 1 o'clock.

I suppose the 6N1P needs roughly twice as much volume knob turn to get similar volume over the 7DJ8 could be tube design stuff, but that I can't get the lower volume tube into moderate listening levels is weird.

My explanation to Steve may not have been good enough, we were talking about several topics and I did not want to take too much time. And Lon your supposition that it is odd that my amp won't perform impressively with the tubes that ship with it is what has been on my mind too.

In light of this discussion, I just ran some tests. Using the 6N1P with a hot recording (CEU), PureMusic at 0dB (flat) through the Tranquility, oddly, I get notable distortion at about 9 o'clock, and maybe earlier, but it is so quiet I can hardly tell. Riding the PureMusic pre with the Torii volume, and keeping relatively the same loudness, the distortion remains the same with Pure way down, and the Torii way up. But I think it may get worse in the Torii 2-3 o'clock range.

Riding the volumes with the Oppo/ZSTAGE and Torii. The same things happen. So from this test, I am thinking I can say that with hot recordings, I am getting distortion with the 6N1P no matter what.

With a 7DJ8 and the Tranquility as output at 0 dB in Pure, a hot recording maxes around 12 o'clock and it is loud. Riding Pure and the Torii volumes, -13dB in Pure and about 3 o'clock is similar volume and perhaps a touch more distortion.

I wonder if there is something I am missing. Like maybe my volume pot is a little dirty, particularly in the 2-3 o'clock range or something? Or is there something else internal that is maxing out with the 6N1P but also causing the other tubes to perform less than optimally.

OK...I have had a miraculous recovery! The only thing I know is different is that I went away to have surgery for four days, probably the first four days the amp has been off in many many months. Also, i got my repaired ZDAC and wired it in as the oppo dac, where I had the oppo direct through the ZSTAGE before.

I stuck in some 6N1Ps to see if the problem might have disappeared using the ZDAC/ZSTAGE as source. NO DISTORTION until very high levels!

Changed over to the Tranquility direct into the Toriii.......NO DISTORTION.

I messed around with VRs, Rectifiers and Power tubes.....no change.

WTF!@#$%^&*()_

I don't get it. Is it possible for an input resistor to be on the way out overloading the power tubes for a time and getting better, miraculously changing. Really. I did nothing, and after months of 6N1P distortion, it is gone....at least today.

So finally Lon I am exploring your favorite input tube.

BTW, which Cryo one is your fav? I have two. One in a funny little box without ends marked 6H1-NB and a label stuck on....CS Super Cryogenic Treatment. These tubes have OTK near the bottom of the glass. The other is labeled Anod 6N1P-EV Cryo 6922 E88CC 6DJ8. Both are from Ron at Cryoset.

I am listening to the Super Cryos now and they are big and fun so far.

Wow will. First off, glad you're back from surgery, hope you recover very quickly and all stays well. Secondly, no idea what is wrong that would cause your distortion in the first place, or to go away, and I hope it doesn't come back. Maybe the amp needed a rest! Glad you are getting to use the 6N1P now. I notice that Ron has had several different "super cryo" tubes available. The ones that I bought. . . I can't remember what factory he said they were from, Anod may be correct. They have no markings at all except a 2 in a diamond near the base, printed sideways.

I hope you enjoy exploring the tube type. I found that the "super cryo" I'm using really didn't come into its own for weeks (and weeks, really about a month). Now it seems invisible and shows me any other changes I make in tubes, isolation, and cables.

Thanks for the good wishes, amp and body wise (hernia repair, well on the mend it seems). I am using the super cryo ones with OTK near the bottom of the glass followed by a sideways diamond that looks like it has a sideways 7, but it may be a 2. I did not like it with the 6CA7s, but with the Cryo'd tungsols, so far they are very listenable, even new, so I look forward to them burning in. I recall when I first started getting tubes fro Ron he found the russian made ones to take inordinate amounts of time to burn in and this has proven true for me. But right now Chet Baker and Paul Bley are sounding pretty damned sweet!

I would really like to know what changed to sort this distortion thing! And only with the 6N1Ps no less! Maybe I need to get one of those tube socket cleaner sets.

We probably have the same tubes in use. I'll have to try my cryo'd Tungsols in the Mk III again. I've been using them a few months now in my Mk II in the bedroom system after they had been unused for over a year or more. I just never have liked them in the Mk III, but I may not have given them enough time to break in. They sound fine in the Mk II, but the room is so different there that everything is actually different in that system, hard to isolate whether it's the components or the configuration (far from ideal, speakers way too close to the walls, not able to be symmetrically placed, but with the balance control available with the CSP2, works out quite well. A much warmer presentation there, which is a nice listen while relaxing in the bedroom. My gal loves the sound, which is worth a lot of gold.

It is possible that socket cleaning might be a culprit. I almost think anything is possible with these systems! I have a socket problem, it's not a cleaning one but I think a loose wiring one, going to have to send the Mk III back one of these days. But I don't want to part with it for repair and travel time! Not at all! If I do I'm going to see if the bass knobs can be installed.

Hernia repair. I'm probably going to have that one day. My doctor told me I have one and "it's not going to get better by itself." Has never bothered me but one day it might.

I think you will like the bass knobs! Can't vouch entirely for the Tungsols at the moment as I just tried one record and it was better. Also using some warmish Ratheon 5U4GBs, and some warmish tungsol OB3s. So the edge of the tungsol EL34 is calmed a touch. A tube I think you may like though is the Cryo'd Ruby EL34 fat boys. If I recall correctly, they have a lot of the midrange and higher characteristics similar to Winged Cs, but a tighter Bass more in line with JJ6CA7s. I will do some careful, direct testing and let you know how they sound here anyway. They are cheap too.

I had no choice on the hernia. It was sticking out above the pubic bone like half a hand ball, and had to be held in with a support thingy. Nice to have it taken care of!

Well, I have played around with voltage regulators and the Tungsols and though I got a nice drier than usual sound I found myself missing the JJs a lot and just went back to those. Once the JJs are broken in there's a very appealing openness to the sound and a warm smoothness that is quite nice for less than stellar recordings. and I'm now listening to a very stark dry recording of four saxophones alone (World Saxophone Quartet "Steppin'" on Black Saint) that sounded rather un-involving wth the Tungsols and sounds really intriguing with the JJs. So the JJs are in for a while. I'll need to put the Winged Cs in again soon to reconnect with that sound, but I must say I slowly warmed up to the sound of the JJs and am pretty acclimated to them now.

I'm drinking in the sound. . . I may be facing a period of time again where I don't have as much time with my stereo (darned working world) and so I'm savoring this as I can.

As for the bass knobs, I'm hoping I don't have to send the Torii in for a few months, as I want to do the PS Audio PWD upgrade first in the financial and "down time" schedule. Maybe next month sometime. We'll see.

Yes the JJs are an odd Tube! They have such an individual character, for me at first they usually come off as a little veiled, but with warm up and adjustment, that lovely sense of inner ambience starts to sing and take them places no other power tube I havego. I end up quite affectionate with them also, especially with 7DJ8s.

They are really nice tubes. I am thinking of ordering a cryo pair for comparison, but man, that forever breakin period!!!

Good luck with the work world shift! Sounds pretty good working with one of your second loves! The big bikes.

I can't recall exactly, but the bass knobs weren't much to have installed. was it 125?

No idea. It's not really the cost so much as the down time and the fact that I've been thinking of the PS Audio upgrade longer. I'd like to get that under my belt first, and get a grip on that, and then have the Torii updated.

We'll see. . . I'm a river, I shift from day to day and prefer it that way.

I've also considered the cryo'd JJs and agree, the darned burn in time! In my case I could put them in my Mk II and use them for a time and get past the burn in. Another thing for the list.

Lon, I don't know the difference between the Cryo Ruby EL34BSTR and the BHTs. I got the STRs on Ron's recommendation.

I just did some testing: Winged C, JJ6CA7, and the cryo Ruby STRs. It was very interesting. I wanted as transparent a background as I could get so that the SuperCryo 6N1Ps and the power tubes would really show being less influenced but the other tubes. This was some Early 80s Sylvania OA3STs (unusually open and transparent STs... very transparent, but without the edginess of the tall bottle russian OA3s I have), my most transparent very tall bottle RCA 5U4GB (with no bottom mica), and RCA OC2s. If anything this would be a slightly brutally open background set.

The Winged C were as usual for me, warm in a slightly darkish way, but redeemed by the slight emphasis in the mid/upper mids. At the same time, I always find them a bit off balance, with this upper mid clarity, but somewhat diminished definition down in the lower mids and bass. Interestingly, the 6N1Ps made these warmer than I am accustomed to....the balance of the two tubes together have a softening and warm synergy that I can imagine fits your objective of good presentation for less than stellar recordings, I think because both tend to have a slightly rich and darkish overall presentations with a an accented mid clarity that brings out necessary textures and nuances.

Next I put in the JJs. Still warm, but more inner and micro detail throughout the spectrum, more spacious, and a very good balance to me. But also slightly veiled with slightly wound down dynamics. Very nice and musical though and I like them a lot once I settle into their sound. Forgiving without a particular sense of obvious veiled warmth.

Then the cryo Ruby STR. One more step toward increased micro and inner detail bringing out more textures and nuance, more spacious, no sense of restriction....more dynamic, and also good balance bottom to top. Still they have warmth, but of a different character with the inner detail and textures, and they have some of that seductive tubey sound the JJs have too that I might describe as sort of an inner ambience if you know what I mean. I like that quality.

I would say with this tube set and the amp settings I am using, the Ruby is like a more refined little brother to the JJ. Similar fundamental characteristics, but less restricted and less dark than the JJ. More sense of the players in the room for me. And with this tube set, a very bright and open input tube could hurt, but with the super 6N1Ps richness, I am not hearing painful stuff. So with warmer Rectifiers, and VRs they just may be a safe bet for you if you ever get the urge for more power tube exploration. Hard to say.

An interesting thing is that the JJs shortcomings always disappear for me as I grow used to them, so I like them. But the Rubies might spend more time in my amp. I like the choices, but not having the Rubies and having solely the JJs would not be a bad place to be with all the other tubes I can mix and match with!

As I listen to tubes more like I understand yours to be, I suspect that our tube tastes are probably quite similar. I mean, this 6N1P is a pretty tight little tube with lots of detail, and at least so far, the mids can get a bit edgy, but the true warmth they have softens things nicely without veils. I suspect that slight edginess will improve, but at this point my favorite inputs (at least with a good synergistic adjunct tubes) I would not necessarily call harder or edgier than these. Perhaps more revealing, but not less musical, and definitely bringing out a more intimate "Player in the room" feel. I don't dislike the slight separation the 6N1P brings to he presentations though. The smoothness of the music is very friendly. It is sort of like being further back from the band.

But my 6N1PS only 20 or 30 hours in! And I like the presentation very much. It is pleasant and forgiving and I can imagine as they open it will all get better!!!

If I know you you had a lot of fun doing those power tube evaluations will! I'll check the Rubys out next time I go to buy power tubes. Sounds as if they'll be a nice alternative for me to use.

Yes, I think I like the signature of the 6N1P as it does seem to work in taming the harsher sounding recordings I have and allow me to just listen to the music more than the sound. And I've learned something about myself over time: when I find something that really works for me I keep it as long as I can, whether it's a tube, an amp, a motorcycle. Even friends and lovers.

You've described well it seems to me the different power tubes and their characteristics. I find the 6N1P is the anchor for me, and I build around it. I think you'll find the Super Cryo to improve ovcer the next weeks.

Lon, I believe I get that super cryo 6N1P anchor thing now for your needs. Makes total sense. It is a surprisingly softening and darkening tube without veils or significantly apparent detail loss, and powerfully influences any power tube it is with. Pretty cool.

I really can't say if the Rubys would suit you or not, but with the right counterparts, I suspect you would like them. They do go deep into micro detail, but to me in a very good and sweet way as long as the other tubes are not too bright.