Required Certification, Unionization, et al

What's the big deal with these case studies in 70-100? Everyone tells
you exactly what you need to answer the questions, all you have to do
is drag drop and connect the dots.

If only real customers were so concise, we wouldn't have to triple our
estimates to account for the "reality" of unknowns.

Someone said recently on one of these newsgroups that laws should be
passed requiring certifications to perform certain kinds of work. I
agree. Perhaps we need to unionize and set up a certification board
in each state, as other engineers have done.

Here's a real situation I ran into yesterday:

A friend, a network design engineer, calls me after leaving a customer
site, having just visited a financial institution that had purchased
SBS to put customer records retrieval online. He describes the
environment as hostile towards the server, because web retrievals from
SQL Server are doggedly slow. Can it be improved? Questions followed
by answers, 30GB db, 5M records, RAID 5 SCSI, 512MB RAM, and on web
queries to view last 6 months transactions, memory utilization
steadily climbs until box pretty much freezes.

Excuse me? Is that 6 months of one customer or 6 months of the whole
database? "Whole". So I ask him why the web application allows
someone to query 1 million rows from the database when it can only
display one page at a time. Their "SQL guy" on site said the hardware
in inadequate to handle such a large database and wants a new server.
Sorry guy, that's not going to fix a thing.

As it turns out, they installed SELECT * FROM SBS on this little
server. So I told him to go back to the site and double the RAM, and
I'd VPN this Friday to see what some amateur has done to place.

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And how would that relate to MCSD ? I believe this
group is mcsd forum.
"Grok" <> wrote in message
news:...
> What's the big deal with these case studies in 70-100? Everyone tells
> you exactly what you need to answer the questions, all you have to do
> is drag drop and connect the dots.
>
> If only real customers were so concise, we wouldn't have to triple our
> estimates to account for the "reality" of unknowns.
>
> Someone said recently on one of these newsgroups that laws should be
> passed requiring certifications to perform certain kinds of work. I
> agree. Perhaps we need to unionize and set up a certification board
> in each state, as other engineers have done.
>
> Here's a real situation I ran into yesterday:
>
> A friend, a network design engineer, calls me after leaving a customer
> site, having just visited a financial institution that had purchased
> SBS to put customer records retrieval online. He describes the
> environment as hostile towards the server, because web retrievals from
> SQL Server are doggedly slow. Can it be improved? Questions followed
> by answers, 30GB db, 5M records, RAID 5 SCSI, 512MB RAM, and on web
> queries to view last 6 months transactions, memory utilization
> steadily climbs until box pretty much freezes.
>
> Excuse me? Is that 6 months of one customer or 6 months of the whole
> database? "Whole". So I ask him why the web application allows
> someone to query 1 million rows from the database when it can only
> display one page at a time. Their "SQL guy" on site said the hardware
> in inadequate to handle such a large database and wants a new server.
> Sorry guy, that's not going to fix a thing.
>
> As it turns out, they installed SELECT * FROM SBS on this little
> server. So I told him to go back to the site and double the RAM, and
> I'd VPN this Friday to see what some amateur has done to place.
>
> So what about it? How can we unionize our profession?

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* this is a newsgroup, not a forum. If you're going to be a smartass,
get your facts straight.
* 70-100 is an MCSD exam, which I discuss here.
* 70-100 is about case studies, which I discuss here.
* MCSD is a professional certification that can usually assess
someone's ability to do competent work, if not just competent
test-taking. Discussion of requiring some type of certification for
performing professional work is a natural related topic.

The way I see it, my post, whether one agrees or disagrees with its
content, had plenty more MCSD-related value than your snotty reply.

On Thu, 31 Jul 2003 23:28:02 +0530, "Fluker" <>
wrote:
>And how would that relate to MCSD ? I believe this
>group is mcsd forum.
>"Grok" <> wrote in message
>news:...
>> What's the big deal with these case studies in 70-100? Everyone tells
>> you exactly what you need to answer the questions, all you have to do
>> is drag drop and connect the dots.
>>
>> If only real customers were so concise, we wouldn't have to triple our
>> estimates to account for the "reality" of unknowns.
>>
>> Someone said recently on one of these newsgroups that laws should be
>> passed requiring certifications to perform certain kinds of work. I
>> agree. Perhaps we need to unionize and set up a certification board
>> in each state, as other engineers have done.
>>
>> Here's a real situation I ran into yesterday:
>>
>> A friend, a network design engineer, calls me after leaving a customer
>> site, having just visited a financial institution that had purchased
>> SBS to put customer records retrieval online. He describes the
>> environment as hostile towards the server, because web retrievals from
>> SQL Server are doggedly slow. Can it be improved? Questions followed
>> by answers, 30GB db, 5M records, RAID 5 SCSI, 512MB RAM, and on web
>> queries to view last 6 months transactions, memory utilization
>> steadily climbs until box pretty much freezes.
>>
>> Excuse me? Is that 6 months of one customer or 6 months of the whole
>> database? "Whole". So I ask him why the web application allows
>> someone to query 1 million rows from the database when it can only
>> display one page at a time. Their "SQL guy" on site said the hardware
>> in inadequate to handle such a large database and wants a new server.
>> Sorry guy, that's not going to fix a thing.
>>
>> As it turns out, they installed SELECT * FROM SBS on this little
>> server. So I told him to go back to the site and double the RAM, and
>> I'd VPN this Friday to see what some amateur has done to place.
>>
>> So what about it? How can we unionize our profession?
>

You only have to look at the posts in this ng to see that most of
those people should never be allowed near a computer terminal - even a
dumb one.

The Microsoft certification program is a complete joke, again just
look at the 'quality' of the posts for proof!!

On Thu, 31 Jul 2003 16:28:16 -0400, Grok <> wrote:
>* this is a newsgroup, not a forum. If you're going to be a smartass,
>get your facts straight.
>* 70-100 is an MCSD exam, which I discuss here.
>* 70-100 is about case studies, which I discuss here.
>* MCSD is a professional certification that can usually assess
>someone's ability to do competent work, if not just competent
>test-taking. Discussion of requiring some type of certification for
>performing professional work is a natural related topic.
>
>The way I see it, my post, whether one agrees or disagrees with its
>content, had plenty more MCSD-related value than your snotty reply.
>
>
>On Thu, 31 Jul 2003 23:28:02 +0530, "Fluker" <>
>wrote:
>
>>And how would that relate to MCSD ? I believe this
>>group is mcsd forum.
>>"Grok" <> wrote in message
>>news:...
>>> What's the big deal with these case studies in 70-100? Everyone tells
>>> you exactly what you need to answer the questions, all you have to do
>>> is drag drop and connect the dots.
>>>
>>> If only real customers were so concise, we wouldn't have to triple our
>>> estimates to account for the "reality" of unknowns.
>>>
>>> Someone said recently on one of these newsgroups that laws should be
>>> passed requiring certifications to perform certain kinds of work. I
>>> agree. Perhaps we need to unionize and set up a certification board
>>> in each state, as other engineers have done.
>>>
>>> Here's a real situation I ran into yesterday:
>>>
>>> A friend, a network design engineer, calls me after leaving a customer
>>> site, having just visited a financial institution that had purchased
>>> SBS to put customer records retrieval online. He describes the
>>> environment as hostile towards the server, because web retrievals from
>>> SQL Server are doggedly slow. Can it be improved? Questions followed
>>> by answers, 30GB db, 5M records, RAID 5 SCSI, 512MB RAM, and on web
>>> queries to view last 6 months transactions, memory utilization
>>> steadily climbs until box pretty much freezes.
>>>
>>> Excuse me? Is that 6 months of one customer or 6 months of the whole
>>> database? "Whole". So I ask him why the web application allows
>>> someone to query 1 million rows from the database when it can only
>>> display one page at a time. Their "SQL guy" on site said the hardware
>>> in inadequate to handle such a large database and wants a new server.
>>> Sorry guy, that's not going to fix a thing.
>>>
>>> As it turns out, they installed SELECT * FROM SBS on this little
>>> server. So I told him to go back to the site and double the RAM, and
>>> I'd VPN this Friday to see what some amateur has done to place.
>>>
>>> So what about it? How can we unionize our profession?
>>

MCSD is NOT a professional certification. The only professional
certification that exists so far for software engineers is IEEE CSDP
(Certified Software Development Professional):http://www.computer.org/certification/

Grok, I partially agree with your initial post but not with the Union thing.
We do not need that.

"Grok" <> wrote in message
news:...
> * this is a newsgroup, not a forum. If you're going to be a smartass,
> get your facts straight.
> * 70-100 is an MCSD exam, which I discuss here.
> * 70-100 is about case studies, which I discuss here.
> * MCSD is a professional certification that can usually assess
> someone's ability to do competent work, if not just competent
> test-taking. Discussion of requiring some type of certification for
> performing professional work is a natural related topic.
>
> The way I see it, my post, whether one agrees or disagrees with its
> content, had plenty more MCSD-related value than your snotty reply.
>
>
> On Thu, 31 Jul 2003 23:28:02 +0530, "Fluker" <>
> wrote:
>
> >And how would that relate to MCSD ? I believe this
> >group is mcsd forum.
> >"Grok" <> wrote in message
> >news:...
> >> What's the big deal with these case studies in 70-100? Everyone tells
> >> you exactly what you need to answer the questions, all you have to do
> >> is drag drop and connect the dots.
> >>
> >> If only real customers were so concise, we wouldn't have to triple our
> >> estimates to account for the "reality" of unknowns.
> >>
> >> Someone said recently on one of these newsgroups that laws should be
> >> passed requiring certifications to perform certain kinds of work. I
> >> agree. Perhaps we need to unionize and set up a certification board
> >> in each state, as other engineers have done.
> >>
> >> Here's a real situation I ran into yesterday:
> >>
> >> A friend, a network design engineer, calls me after leaving a customer
> >> site, having just visited a financial institution that had purchased
> >> SBS to put customer records retrieval online. He describes the
> >> environment as hostile towards the server, because web retrievals from
> >> SQL Server are doggedly slow. Can it be improved? Questions followed
> >> by answers, 30GB db, 5M records, RAID 5 SCSI, 512MB RAM, and on web
> >> queries to view last 6 months transactions, memory utilization
> >> steadily climbs until box pretty much freezes.
> >>
> >> Excuse me? Is that 6 months of one customer or 6 months of the whole
> >> database? "Whole". So I ask him why the web application allows
> >> someone to query 1 million rows from the database when it can only
> >> display one page at a time. Their "SQL guy" on site said the hardware
> >> in inadequate to handle such a large database and wants a new server.
> >> Sorry guy, that's not going to fix a thing.
> >>
> >> As it turns out, they installed SELECT * FROM SBS on this little
> >> server. So I told him to go back to the site and double the RAM, and
> >> I'd VPN this Friday to see what some amateur has done to place.
> >>
> >> So what about it? How can we unionize our profession?
> >
>

I expect the ACM would have something in U.S. as well - - but this begs the
original question. If you want to use a certification as a means of
identifying a person as "qualified", hiring managers and/or consulting
clients have to know about the certification and respect its value. Every
company in the U.S. knows the accounting professions' CPA exam and
recognizes it as important professional milestone. But in all the years
I've been doing IT work (22+) I have not seen any comparable credential for
IT. The Cisco certs seem to be important for network engineers - - but
again, that's a vendor-sponsored certification and does not focus on
software development. If the client base (that is, those people hiring IT
consultants or employees) do not back any particular credential (other than
a bachelor's degree) I don't see how we can move beyond the current stage of
scanning resumes for particular acronyms and "personality" interviews.

"Kline Sphere" <T> wrote in message
news:...
> >The only professional
> >certification that exists so far for software engineers is IEEE CSDP
> >(Certified Software Development Professional):
> >http://www.computer.org/certification/
>
> Not quite accurate, and largely depends on where you live.
>
> These are applicable in the UK: -
>
> British Computer Society (BCS).
> Association of Computer Machinery (ACM)
> Council of European Professional Infomatics Societies (CEPIS)
>
> There are others such as the Programmers Guild and the Institution of
> Analysts and Programmers, but I'm not sure how (or even if) these are
> recognized by our industry.

I agree too but what can we do? This field is a lot more dynamic than
others. During the dot com boom way too many people changed their career
over night just because of a better pay.

It seems to me that the main issue is not the people who are not software
engineer and pretend their are. The issue is the management and those who
hire them. Now, the question is: how to educate them?

Danut

"Kline Sphere" <T> wrote in message
news:...
> Totally agree. It seems completely ridicules that someone can call
> themselves a software engineer yet not have to prove they actually
> are.
>
> On Mon, 4 Aug 2003 08:16:27 -0400, "emg" <>
> wrote:
>
> >I expect the ACM would have something in U.S. as well - - but this begs
the
> >original question. If you want to use a certification as a means of
> >identifying a person as "qualified", hiring managers and/or consulting
> >clients have to know about the certification and respect its value.
Every
> >company in the U.S. knows the accounting professions' CPA exam and
> >recognizes it as important professional milestone. But in all the years
> >I've been doing IT work (22+) I have not seen any comparable credential
for
> >IT. The Cisco certs seem to be important for network engineers - - but
> >again, that's a vendor-sponsored certification and does not focus on
> >software development. If the client base (that is, those people hiring
IT
> >consultants or employees) do not back any particular credential (other
than
> >a bachelor's degree) I don't see how we can move beyond the current stage
of
> >scanning resumes for particular acronyms and "personality" interviews.
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >"Kline Sphere" <T> wrote in message
> >news:...
> >> >The only professional
> >> >certification that exists so far for software engineers is IEEE CSDP
> >> >(Certified Software Development Professional):
> >> >http://www.computer.org/certification/
> >>
> >> Not quite accurate, and largely depends on where you live.
> >>
> >> These are applicable in the UK: -
> >>
> >> British Computer Society (BCS).
> >> Association of Computer Machinery (ACM)
> >> Council of European Professional Infomatics Societies (CEPIS)
> >>
> >> There are others such as the Programmers Guild and the Institution of
> >> Analysts and Programmers, but I'm not sure how (or even if) these are
> >> recognized by our industry.
> >
>

>And these tools and technologies change very often. A lot faster than in
>other fields.

Not all at. Look and camcorders or any other customer product, these
change almost monthly. Many of the 'standards' change all the time as
well.
>> The principles are the same.
>
>They should be the same, I agree. But many people do not see that.

Well, that's just dumb thinking on their part.
>Yes, but the human body remains the same. There is no Microsoft to say that
>the VB6 heart sucks so now you need a VB.NET heart in order to live a
>better life.

Drug companies and medical research companies are always bringing out
new pioneering ways to treat illnesses.
>> Yet the principles for 'training' and gaining professional
>> quantification has not changed a great deal.
>
>One of the things I hate is that almost every day I study for at leats 30
>minutes or more and I improve my skills, knowledge, etc. I alsao workd hard
>and try all the time to find better solutions. Even so there are people who
>do a bad job, have no knowledge about what they do but they still get good
>reviews, sometimes a higher salary raise than me, etc.

Well that's unfair. If I was in that position it would not be for
long. As I've worked with the same company for more than twenty years,
I guess they're good company
>Well, I do not know how to fire the managers. I'm just a developer and I've
>seen too many bad decisions. Since the managers' managers are the same who's
>gone do the clean up?

Naturally the board see's to that. Middle and senior management are
not some kind of God's. They are just employees how are expected to
perform the tasks they are employed for, in a manner befitting their
postilion.
>> However most companies are to incompetent
>> and/or spinless to do so.
>
>How do you make them competent?

You can't. However supply and demand should see bad one's fall by the
wayside, while the good one's continue to grow.
>> Still they get what they deserve - crap
>> systems.
>
>Even with crap many of them still stay on business for many years. Probably
>the customer needs to be educated to request a better quality, then the bad
>companies will go out of business (maybe).

As a customer I don't put up with crap. If I go out for a meal, and
it's crap I tell them and don't go back.

So yes the customer does need to know not to except anything other
than what they expect.

Thanks for the info anyway. I did not know much about what happens in
Europe.

Danut

"Kline Sphere" <T> wrote in message
news:...
> >The only professional
> >certification that exists so far for software engineers is IEEE CSDP
> >(Certified Software Development Professional):
> >http://www.computer.org/certification/
>
> Not quite accurate, and largely depends on where you live.
>
> These are applicable in the UK: -
>
> British Computer Society (BCS).
> Association of Computer Machinery (ACM)
> Council of European Professional Infomatics Societies (CEPIS)
>
> There are others such as the Programmers Guild and the Institution of
> Analysts and Programmers, but I'm not sure how (or even if) these are
> recognized by our industry.

I was referring to professional bodies, rather than just a
'certification' process.

On Wed, 6 Aug 2003 09:11:44 -0500, "Danut" <>
wrote:
>I looked at:
>http://www.acm.org
>http://www.cepis.org
>and I did not find anything about certification.
>
>As for BCS, this seems to be the link to the certification:
>http://www1.bcs.org.uk/link.asp?sectionID=1114
>
>Other links:
>
>Programmers Guild:
>http://www.colosseumbuilders.com/american.htm
>
>Institution of Analysts and Programmers:
>http://www.iap.org.uk/holder/parent_frame.htm
>
>Thanks for the info anyway. I did not know much about what happens in
>Europe.
>
>Danut
>
>
>"Kline Sphere" <T> wrote in message
>news:...
>> >The only professional
>> >certification that exists so far for software engineers is IEEE CSDP
>> >(Certified Software Development Professional):
>> >http://www.computer.org/certification/
>>
>> Not quite accurate, and largely depends on where you live.
>>
>> These are applicable in the UK: -
>>
>> British Computer Society (BCS).
>> Association of Computer Machinery (ACM)
>> Council of European Professional Infomatics Societies (CEPIS)
>>
>> There are others such as the Programmers Guild and the Institution of
>> Analysts and Programmers, but I'm not sure how (or even if) these are
>> recognized by our industry.
>

"Kline Sphere" <T> wrote in message
news:...
> I was referring to professional bodies, rather than just a
> 'certification' process.

In understand but I was looking into the certification(s) provcess when I
said that IEEE CSDP is the ONLY professional certification for Software
Engineers (in the USA). The MS, Sun, Oracle, etc. are vendor certifications
and NOT professional certifications.

The gist of my suggestion was that some capabilities measurement must
be possible which could be enforced by act of law.

Doctors, lawyers, engineers are each "certified" (in the normal sense
of the word) by mostly self-regulating bodies that they have acquired
the education and testable knowledge to provide reasonable protection
to clients seeking their services.

These <em>professionals</em> are responsible for their work to the
degree where they can lose their ability to work in their discipline
for their natural lives, should they be caught performing
incompetently, or cause significant damage to clients.

I've been "software engineering" for 22 years myself, and yes, in the
United States, and am just sickened by the sad state of our work as a
whole.

On Wed, 06 Aug 2003 20:33:57 +0100, Kline Sphere <™> wrote:
>Absolutely true.
>
>However for professional recognition within those bodies, requires the
>individual to not only to agree to the professional code of conduct
>(or whatever they wish to call it), but also prove they do indeed have
>the necessary qualifications and experience to become a member.
>
>On Wed, 6 Aug 2003 13:48:41 -0500, "Danut" <>
>wrote:
>
>>"Kline Sphere" <T> wrote in message
>>news:...
>>> I was referring to professional bodies, rather than just a
>>> 'certification' process.
>>
>>In understand but I was looking into the certification(s) provcess when I
>>said that IEEE CSDP is the ONLY professional certification for Software
>>Engineers (in the USA). The MS, Sun, Oracle, etc. are vendor certifications
>>and NOT professional certifications.
>>
>>
>>> On Wed, 6 Aug 2003 09:11:44 -0500, "Danut" <>
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>> >I looked at:
>>> >http://www.acm.org
>>> >http://www.cepis.org
>>> >and I did not find anything about certification.
>>> >
>>> >As for BCS, this seems to be the link to the certification:
>>> >http://www1.bcs.org.uk/link.asp?sectionID=1114
>>> >
>>> >Other links:
>>> >
>>> >Programmers Guild:
>>> >http://www.colosseumbuilders.com/american.htm
>>> >
>>> >Institution of Analysts and Programmers:
>>> >http://www.iap.org.uk/holder/parent_frame.htm
>>> >
>>> >Thanks for the info anyway. I did not know much about what happens in
>>> >Europe.
>>> >
>>> >Danut
>>> >
>>> >
>>> >"Kline Sphere" <T> wrote in message
>>> >news:...
>>> >> >The only professional
>>> >> >certification that exists so far for software engineers is IEEE CSDP
>>> >> >(Certified Software Development Professional):
>>> >> >http://www.computer.org/certification/
>>> >>
>>> >> Not quite accurate, and largely depends on where you live.
>>> >>
>>> >> These are applicable in the UK: -
>>> >>
>>> >> British Computer Society (BCS).
>>> >> Association of Computer Machinery (ACM)
>>> >> Council of European Professional Infomatics Societies (CEPIS)
>>> >>
>>> >> There are others such as the Programmers Guild and the Institution of
>>> >> Analysts and Programmers, but I'm not sure how (or even if) these are
>>> >> recognized by our industry.
>>> >
>>>
>>

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