As a nation state, Italy has emerged only in 1871. Until then the country was politically divided into a large number of independant cities, provinces and islands. The currently available evidences point out to a dominant Etruscan, Greek and Roman cultural influence on today's Italians.

My great-grandfather, (Angelo) Carmine Petraglia was born in Quadrelle, Avellino on December 17, 1864, married first Gelsomina Montuori and had three children in Quadrelle. Carmine immigrated to the US March 23, 1895, and Gelsomina with two children (the third one had died) later. They went through Ellis Island and at the time of the 1900 census are all living in Sunderland, Vermont. Gelsomina dies February 27, 1901. My great grandmother Francesca Maria Carmina Guliano of Quadrelle (born February 12, 1878) immigrates to the US by herself, and as single, on September 18, 1901. She also enters through Ellis Island. On the ship manifest I can make out the last name Petraglia, so I know she is headed to Vermont to Carmine. I have been searching in vain for their marriage certificate. My grandmother was their first child and born August 1, 1902, (no vital record in Vermont for this) leading me to believe that my great grandparents were married between when Francesca immigrated and December of 1901. I have searched vital records at the town and state levels in Vermont and have come up empty handed. I also thought perhaps they could have been married in NYC, but a search of all the boroughs has also left me empty handed.

So my new friends, my questions areâ€¦ what were the customs for marriage at the time? Would this have been an arranged marriage through mail? Would Carmine have gone to NYC to get Francesca or would she have made her way to Vermont by herself? And when would they have been married? The week she arrived, a month or two later?

Any thoughts or observations are greatly appreciated. I have been searching for this information for yearsâ€¦ it is driving me crazy!

One thought comes to mind, are you sure that he did not return to Italy to find a wife, and that the marriage took place there?
My Nonni is listed as single per manifest, when in fact she was married......
and it is quite common to find that our ancestors made more than one trip back to the old country.
wldspirit

Based on the information on the detainee record, Francesca was "sent (to the states) to be married to" Carmine whose address is shown as 86 Mulberry St, NYC, possibly a temporary address for him while he awaited her arrival? An arranged marriage?

Biff

"There are only two lasting bequests we can give our children - one is roots, and the other, wings." -- Hodding S. Carter

Thank you both for your replies! I did search the Quadrelle records and did not find a certificate there. Carmineâ€™s sister did live on Mulberry Street in NYC!!! I had no idea the X meant there was more information!!!!! WOW!!! So now I know for sure Francesca went to Carmine's sisterâ€™s on Mulberry St!!! I looked back in my notes and I did send inquiries to the nearest Catholic church (St. Patrickâ€™s also on Mulberry St.) NYC vital records and NY state vital records (in addition to the state of Vermont and individual towns in the area) and none had a record of the marriageâ€¦ Perhaps locating this is just not meant to beâ€¦

Can anyone think of any USA documents in which they would have needed to disclose marriage information on?

Since you've checked so many places and thus far haven't been able to find the records you're looking for, I would try as many alternative routes as possible. Go back to the drawing board- and try to use what you DO KNOW instead of focusing on what you don't.

In other words, tracking the people around them- siblings, cousins, kids, etc. Get as many details as you can and see if that leads you to any new details that you may have overlooked.

For example, you know where Carmine's sister was living. Did she get married around the same time? Or have a child around the same time? If so, what church? Mulberry street is in the heart of Little Italy. There are other churches they could have gone to.

I'm sure you've probably already done a lot of this but you never know, maybe you'll uncover some new clues if you take the focus off of your direct line and take a fresh approach.

Biff83 wrote:View of Mulberry Street sometime between 1900 and 1910; 86 Mulberry Street in right foreground. From Library of Congress Prints and Photographs collection.http://lcweb2.loc.gov/pp/pphome.html

Biff

OH MY GOSH!!! I never expected anything this wonderful!!! WOW! This is so very exciting. I cannot convey in words what this picture and your kindness mean to me! I am shaking! I never thought I could see a picture of where my family lived over 100 years ago. I am in awe.

aliza24 wrote:Since you've checked so many places and thus far haven't been able to find the records you're looking for, I would try as many alternative routes as possible. Go back to the drawing board- and try to use what you DO KNOW instead of focusing on what you don't.

In other words, tracking the people around them- siblings, cousins, kids, etc. Get as many details as you can and see if that leads you to any new details that you may have overlooked.

For example, you know where Carmine's sister was living. Did she get married around the same time? Or have a child around the same time? If so, what church? Mulberry street is in the heart of Little Italy. There are other churches they could have gone to.

I'm sure you've probably already done a lot of this but you never know, maybe you'll uncover some new clues if you take the focus off of your direct line and take a fresh approach.

This is an excellent point! I have not researched this yet, but I think it is a wonderful next step. Thank you for your observations and suggestions!

Since you asked about marriage customs it is possible they were married by proxy. Where a brother stood in for the groom. This happened after WW2 in one search I did and in another someone stood in for the bride at the civil ceremony.

Italysearcher wrote:Since you asked about marriage customs it is possible they were married by proxy. Where a brother stood in for the groom. This happened after WW2 in one search I did and in another someone stood in for the bride at the civil ceremony.

Very interesting... never knew this could have been a possibility. I did search the records in Quadrelle where they were both from and didn't see a record. Do you know how the record would have been recorded if this were done? I presume the name of Carmine would have had to be on the record somewhere... humm...

The name of the groom was very clearly stated on the record. On the one I found (1911) It stated name of the groom (by procura) name of the person representing him then the details of the groom.
The act was recorded as if he were present.

The name of the groom was very clearly stated on the record. On the one I found (1911) It stated name of the groom (by procura) name of the person representing him then the details of the groom.
The act was recorded as if he were present.
They could have been married only in the church OR only at City Hall.

Biff, you were right!!! I received a very nice hand written copy of their marriage certificate from Most Precious Blood in todayâ€™s mail. I just can't believe that I finally have located the place and church, and know the date!!! WOW!! I have been searching for this for years! Thanks so much Biff for taking the time to help me with this. Words cannot covey how grateful I am.