Jstmike -
Maybe UFC should not pay a per fight purse, but instead a monthly salary. Factor in the cost of living where the fighter lives and what ever other variables there may be. There could a base salary for Guys with 5 or less UFC fights. Possibly something like $75,000 a year...probably wouldn't work though I guess

Have you ever heard of the IFL? Their business model was similar and they went out of business in less than 3 years after losing tens of millions of dollars. They had a TV deal within the first 6 months and became a publicly traded company by the end of the first year so we're not talking about a low rent promotion with no resources.

Overpaying the roster contributed to the demise and/or forced sell of the IFL as well as Bodog, WFA, EliteXC, Affliction, and Strikeforce which should be a pretty good sign that the UFC shouldn't go the same route. And if the lower level fighters could make more money elsewhere wouldn't they have signed with another promoter?

I would be interested in knowing how much the current 4k/4k fighters made in their last match prior to signing with the UFC. At least then we'd know if they made a step forwards or backwards. I wonder how much their sponsorships went up or down after signing with Zuffa and how many went from never having a televised fight to having every fight broatcast on national and/or international TV.

I doubt many (if any) are worse off with the UFC than they were with their previous organization and venture to say most are far better off now in every way. The opportunity to fight in the UFC can be career changing and door opening experiences and good managers know how to make the most of it for their clients. Unfortunately, good representation in the sport of MMA seems to be hard to find and not that many managers/agents have figured out how to really leverage the features and benefits of their clients and exploit those strengths in any decent way immaginable for the maximum monetary gain. The UFC will only promote your fight at fight time. Its up to the fighter and his reps to self-promote the athlete and his brand the rest of the time. I bet this area is a vast, largely untapped, and growing every day:)

Yikes, sorry for the frat!

Cindy

No.

If you fight in the UFC, you deserve millions... Perhaps billions of dollars just to show.

Tomato Can - Like I said on another thread, the "Super Bowl of MMA" moniker is just a goofy promotional tool, the comparison between the UFC and the NFL/NBA/MLB isn't really valid. In any of those leagues, making it into the league means you're among the best players in the world, effectively better than any player that isn't in the league.

We've been comparing it to Major League Soccer dude -_-

And if you'll read, it's not an unfair comparison and the UFC does not come out favorably right now.

I think they _could_ come out more legit with some non-egregious adjustments to their pay structure but haven't yet.

I do agree they should make more guaranteed money. Like I said, what if you're a UFC rookie and your first opponent turns out to be the next Jon Jones? Well there goes 50% of your purse.

Other than that, though, I'm not sure there's much to be done. Guys who fill out undercards have zero negotiating power. Aside from the occasional hot prospect, for the most part they're very easily replaced. I wouldn't mind a UFC fighter's union but that sort of thing has to grow organically, the fighters would have to organize and push for it. Despite Cholish's statements, that desire doesn't really seem to be there.

JetSetter - When you start at a firm on Wall St you start in the mail room making 25k per year while your boss is making $50 million per year. People act like the UFC is so out of line with the rest of society but its all relative.

The reality in life is Be the best and get the best pay or change professions

When you make it to the UFC, you've proven to be the best according to them. They state they have all the best fighters.. and yet the monicker of U FIGHT CHEAP is stated by many behind the scenes.

No Ryann, it doesn't mean they have made it and have proven themselves to be the best. It means they have gotten Zuffa's attention and have earned the ability to compete in the big show. How well they do in their first few fights determines how good they are and if they'll continue having a spot on that stage.

Making it to the UFC doesn't mean job security because keeping your spot can be much harder than getting your foot in the door. But performing well and leaving it all in the cage can lead to HUGE paychecks and bonuses, you know that.

Cindy

How can it be the "BIG SHOW" if it has a bunch of unproven fighters on it.............................?

Because this BIG SHOW typically test drives and cultivates new/unproven talent on the prelim cards, most (if not all) of which are televised for free. They aren't popular yet and that's where they'll prove themselves to be (or not to be) UFC level material. Under Zuffa's banner the exposure to hundreds of thousands of MMA fans (via Fox/Fuel/FX) can be priceless to these up and coming fighters as they try to work their way up in the rankings and onto the main cards (and then PPV), build their fan base and reputation, as well as land sponsorships (or negotiate bigger ones).

New talent ($10k/$10k or less) rarely (if ever) generates revenue for Zuffa so they're paid accordingly until they can/do but they still have some of the same opportunities the headliners do to make more money with each bout. A victory moves them to the next level pay-wise as the purse and win bonus amounts increase (ie 4k/4k, 6k/6k, 8k/8k, rtc). And because the UFC is the BIG SHOW, impressive performances (win or lose) are rewarded with discretionary/"lockeroom" bonus checks. Amounts are usually (if not always) higher than their prelim purses and if their fight, submission and/or KO is deemed to be the best of the night they can pick up an additional $50k bonus. The little shows don't/can't offer these things..

I can think of no other promotion that is ready, willing or able to offer new/entry level talent a comparable start or anything better than the BIG SHOW. I can't even think of a promotion that pays their entry level fighters better than the UFC (their minimum purse is $4k) or one that provides medical insurance with event and non-event coverage. I guess those are BIG SHOW benefits, too.

Did you get to go to 159?

Cindy

LOL @ "new and unproven talent" on the undercards. You know who is fighting on the Facebook prelims of the next PPV? Brian Bowles. Former WEC champ and headliner, veteran UFC fighter. The same guy who said in a recent interview that he had to start teaching and dip into his investments in order to live on the 18 months he was out due to injuries.

Tomato Can - Like I said on another thread, the "Super Bowl of MMA" moniker is just a goofy promotional tool, the comparison between the UFC and the NFL/NBA/MLB isn't really valid. In any of those leagues, making it into the league means you're among the best players in the world, effectively better than any player that isn't in the league. In the UFC this isn't the case. There are plenty of marginal fighters in the UFC who are far worse than many fighters in other promotions. Like I said, John Cholish may not even be top 100 in his weight class.

I don't think minimum pay is an issue. What I do think is an issue is the win bonus system. No way should 50% of your salary be dependent on a victory. That is really oppressive. Guys making 5/5 should really be making 8/2 or something like that.

What percentage of revenue do UFC fighters get? What percent do athletes in other sports get?

Yeah, maybe a guy like John Cholish would never be able to make a living off of fighting, but why did Shane Carwin get paid like 60k to fight Brock Lesnar for the heavyweight title in a huge PPV?

Again, you're referring to sports that have unions with CBAs. It's just tough to draw a direct parallel. Even boxing is a tough comparison because the UFC has done such a good job in their branding efforts that it has a huge direct effect on PPV figures, whereas nobody gives half a shit if a boxing PPV is promoted by Golden Boy or Top Rank or whoever.

Also, the way compensation works in the UFC, who knows what Carwin actually made to fight Lesnar.

epwar, Bowles was on 19/19 for his last fight and I'm sure he'll get something similar for this one. Just because he's on the Facebook prelims doesn't mean he's taking a paycut back down to the minimum.

Another example of how the brand "UFC" is becoming bigger than the sport itself. You don't call boxing "WBO" do you? The UFC needs to put more effort into globalising the SPORT otherwise MMA will never be viewed as a legitimate one. Sick and tired of people asking "do you trane ufc?"

Also those who are saying that low tier UFC fighters should work their way up before being paid liveable wages are idiots. THESE ARE PROFESSIONAL FIGHTERS AT THE TOP OF THEIR SPORT FOR FUCKS SAKE.

There are professional boxers that make less than 4/4. there are pro baseball & basketball players that make less than 30k a year too...

Jstmike -
Maybe UFC should not pay a per fight purse, but instead a monthly salary. Factor in the cost of living where the fighter lives and what ever other variables there may be. There could a base salary for Guys with 5 or less UFC fights. Possibly something like $75,000 a year...probably wouldn't work though I guess

Have you ever heard of the IFL? Their business model was similar and they went out of business in less than 3 years after losing tens of millions of dollars. They had a TV deal within the first 6 months and became a publicly traded company by the end of the first year so we're not talking about a low rent promotion with no resources.

Overpaying the roster contributed to the demise and/or forced sell of the IFL as well as Bodog, WFA, EliteXC, Affliction, and Strikeforce which should be a pretty good sign that the UFC shouldn't go the same route. And if the lower level fighters could make more money elsewhere wouldn't they have signed with another promoter?

I would be interested in knowing how much the current 4k/4k fighters made in their last match prior to signing with the UFC. At least then we'd know if they made a step forwards or backwards. I wonder how much their sponsorships went up or down after signing with Zuffa and how many went from never having a televised fight to having every fight broatcast on national and/or international TV.

I doubt many (if any) are worse off with the UFC than they were with their previous organization and venture to say most are far better off now in every way. The opportunity to fight in the UFC can be career changing and door opening experiences and good managers know how to make the most of it for their clients. Unfortunately, good representation in the sport of MMA seems to be hard to find and not that many managers/agents have figured out how to really leverage the features and benefits of their clients and exploit those strengths in any decent way immaginable for the maximum monetary gain. The UFC will only promote your fight at fight time. Its up to the fighter and his reps to self-promote the athlete and his brand the rest of the time. I bet this area is a vast, largely untapped, and growing every day:)

Frank Mir Cat - People who think the fighters should be making all the money and the Fertittas should be breaking even don't know shit about the real world. That's not how business works, the boss gets paid and then everyone else, the less valuable to the company, the less you get paid. (Unless you're unionized, in that system, useless pieces of shit can keep their jobs as long as they make their democratic party donations, er...I mean pay their monthly dues)

And with all due respect to Mr. Cholish, I doubt he was generating 8k in ticket sales or PPV buys, so his complaining makes him seem like a ingrate to me.

He doesn't need to generate $8k in ticket sales directly. He provides the UFC with content to put on the card. Without content, they can't sell a $60 PPV card. He is part of the UFC. Customers buy cards with him on it because he is part of the UFC, but the UFC cannot exist without him (and others like him). This is pretty simple.

Haha, what?

I'm hearing you say:

People buy cards because its the UFC + Cholish is in the UFC = people buy UFC cards because Cholish is fighting

That's because you suffer from poor reading skills.

I think it's more a case of you not being able to clearly express your simple thoughts.

Fighters get paid to put asses in seats, bottom line. A fighter who doesn't do this, doesn't have much a of a reason to complain about pay.

I apologize, I was unnecessarily insulting.

Fighters aren't paid to put asses in seats. Headliners are paid to put asses in seats. Prelim fighters are paid to fill out cards with entertaining fights, and for the implied value on the hopes that they will develop a following and bring future value to the company.

The UFC has to have undercard fighters, they cannot fill every card with headline quality fighters. They have to have quality undercard fighters who display the level of proficiency that is expected of a fighter in the premier fight league in the world. In order to maintain that level of proficiency, these fighters must be paid enough to support themselves while paying for a proper training camp.

Tomato Can - Like I said on another thread, the "Super Bowl of MMA" moniker is just a goofy promotional tool, the comparison between the UFC and the NFL/NBA/MLB isn't really valid. In any of those leagues, making it into the league means you're among the best players in the world, effectively better than any player that isn't in the league. In the UFC this isn't the case. There are plenty of marginal fighters in the UFC who are far worse than many fighters in other promotions. Like I said, John Cholish may not even be top 100 in his weight class.

I don't think minimum pay is an issue. What I do think is an issue is the win bonus system. No way should 50% of your salary be dependent on a victory. That is really oppressive. Guys making 5/5 should really be making 8/2 or something like that.

What percentage of revenue do UFC fighters get? What percent do athletes in other sports get?

Yeah, maybe a guy like John Cholish would never be able to make a living off of fighting, but why did Shane Carwin get paid like 60k to fight Brock Lesnar for the heavyweight title in a huge PPV?

Again, you're referring to sports that have unions with CBAs. It's just tough to draw a direct parallel. Even boxing is a tough comparison because the UFC has done such a good job in their branding efforts that it has a huge direct effect on PPV figures, whereas nobody gives half a shit if a boxing PPV is promoted by Golden Boy or Top Rank or whoever.

Also, the way compensation works in the UFC, who knows what Carwin actually made to fight Lesnar.

Well let's say Shane made 3x that and actually made closer to 200k...so he made 200k to fight in the main event of a card that sold 1.1million ppvs and did 2 million gate. Meanwhile someone like victor ortiz got paid 2 million dollars to fight floyd.

That still seems insanely low. I think these fighters need some kind of collective bargaining agreement because a lot of these guys are taking physical damage that will effect them for the rest of their lives and they are getting paid what seems to me to be very poorly.

Jstmike -
Maybe UFC should not pay a per fight purse, but instead a monthly salary. Factor in the cost of living where the fighter lives and what ever other variables there may be. There could a base salary for Guys with 5 or less UFC fights. Possibly something like $75,000 a year...probably wouldn't work though I guess

Have you ever heard of the IFL? Their business model was similar and they went out of business in less than 3 years after losing tens of millions of dollars. They had a TV deal within the first 6 months and became a publicly traded company by the end of the first year so we're not talking about a low rent promotion with no resources.

Overpaying the roster contributed to the demise and/or forced sell of the IFL as well as Bodog, WFA, EliteXC, Affliction, and Strikeforce which should be a pretty good sign that the UFC shouldn't go the same route. And if the lower level fighters could make more money elsewhere wouldn't they have signed with another promoter?

I would be interested in knowing how much the current 4k/4k fighters made in their last match prior to signing with the UFC. At least then we'd know if they made a step forwards or backwards. I wonder how much their sponsorships went up or down after signing with Zuffa and how many went from never having a televised fight to having every fight broatcast on national and/or international TV.

I doubt many (if any) are worse off with the UFC than they were with their previous organization and venture to say most are far better off now in every way. The opportunity to fight in the UFC can be career changing and door opening experiences and good managers know how to make the most of it for their clients. Unfortunately, good representation in the sport of MMA seems to be hard to find and not that many managers/agents have figured out how to really leverage the features and benefits of their clients and exploit those strengths in any decent way immaginable for the maximum monetary gain. The UFC will only promote your fight at fight time. Its up to the fighter and his reps to self-promote the athlete and his brand the rest of the time. I bet this area is a vast, largely untapped, and growing every day:)

Yikes, sorry for the frat!

Cindy

Good post!

In the context of this discussion, i think its rather pointless to point to the inflated salaries of IFL and affliction and use that as an example why someone like cholish cant get a minimum of 10k to show. Its not like they went out of business paying the guys a bare minimum to show, in fact alot of their lower tier fighters got paid pretty pitiful sums also. For instance mark homminick got paid 5k to show 5k to win on affliction banned. Not like it has anything to do with the little guy getting paid, they just overpaid the big guys by alot. Companies go bankrupt dropping millions on tim sylvia, andrei arlovsky, ben rothwell, and fedor when they arent even sure if they can recoup the loss not by giving mark homminick or cholish an extra couple grand.

JetSetter - When you start at a firm on Wall St you start in the mail room making 25k per year while your boss is making $50 million per year. People act like the UFC is so out of line with the rest of society but its all relative.

The reality in life is Be the best and get the best pay or change professions

When you make it to the UFC, you've proven to be the best according to them. They state they have all the best fighters.. and yet the monicker of U FIGHT CHEAP is stated by many behind the scenes.

No Ryann, it doesn't mean they have made it and have proven themselves to be the best. It means they have gotten Zuffa's attention and have earned the ability to compete in the big show. How well they do in their first few fights determines how good they are and if they'll continue having a spot on that stage.

Making it to the UFC doesn't mean job security because keeping your spot can be much harder than getting your foot in the door. But performing well and leaving it all in the cage can lead to HUGE paychecks and bonuses, you know that.

Cindy

How can it be the "BIG SHOW" if it has a bunch of unproven fighters on it.............................?

Because this BIG SHOW typically test drives and cultivates new/unproven talent on the prelim cards, most (if not all) of which are televised for free. They aren't popular yet and that's where they'll prove themselves to be (or not to be) UFC level material. Under Zuffa's banner the exposure to hundreds of thousands of MMA fans (via Fox/Fuel/FX) can be priceless to these up and coming fighters as they try to work their way up in the rankings and onto the main cards (and then PPV), build their fan base and reputation, as well as land sponsorships (or negotiate bigger ones).

New talent ($10k/$10k or less) rarely (if ever) generates revenue for Zuffa so they're paid accordingly until they can/do but they still have some of the same opportunities the headliners do to make more money with each bout. A victory moves them to the next level pay-wise as the purse and win bonus amounts increase (ie 4k/4k, 6k/6k, 8k/8k, rtc). And because the UFC is the BIG SHOW, impressive performances (win or lose) are rewarded with discretionary/"lockeroom" bonus checks. Amounts are usually (if not always) higher than their prelim purses and if their fight, submission and/or KO is deemed to be the best of the night they can pick up an additional $50k bonus. The little shows don't/can't offer these things..

I can think of no other promotion that is ready, willing or able to offer new/entry level talent a comparable start or anything better than the BIG SHOW. I can't even think of a promotion that pays their entry level fighters better than the UFC (their minimum purse is $4k) or one that provides medical insurance with event and non-event coverage. I guess those are BIG SHOW benefits, too.

Did you get to go to 159?

Cindy

LOL @ "new and unproven talent" on the undercards. You know who is fighting on the Facebook prelims of the next PPV? Brian Bowles. Former WEC champ and headliner, veteran UFC fighter. The same guy who said in a recent interview that he had to start teaching and dip into his investments in order to live on the 18 months he was out due to injuries.

Is Bowles a typical new or unproven fighter making less than a 10k purse on the prelims? No? That means he is atypical and not an example for the focus of my statement. Anyone else?

So Brian had to dip into savings to make ends meet since he didn't work for 18 months? Isn't that what most if not all of us would have to do in the same situation? Or are you saying that because he has been on TV he should no longer have to worry about bills even if he doesn't work for 18 months?

Frank Mir Cat - People who think the fighters should be making all the money and the Fertittas should be breaking even don't know shit about the real world. That's not how business works, the boss gets paid and then everyone else, the less valuable to the company, the less you get paid. (Unless you're unionized, in that system, useless pieces of shit can keep their jobs as long as they make their democratic party donations, er...I mean pay their monthly dues)

And with all due respect to Mr. Cholish, I doubt he was generating 8k in ticket sales or PPV buys, so his complaining makes him seem like a ingrate to me.

He doesn't need to generate $8k in ticket sales directly. He provides the UFC with content to put on the card. Without content, they can't sell a $60 PPV card. He is part of the UFC. Customers buy cards with him on it because he is part of the UFC, but the UFC cannot exist without him (and others like him). This is pretty simple.

No. PPVs are for the last 4-5 fights not the undercard. That's why they aren't aired on the PPV unless there's a bunch of time left at the end. This is pretty simple, if someone else hasn't already pointed it out.

CindyO, if you're in the UFC, you should not have to work a day job to make ends meet period. Maybe if you're out a year-and-a-half or something (although if you're injured from training I would the UFC would still help you out a bit, let alone injured from a fight), but if you're healthy enough to fight the 2.4 fights a year the UFC offers on average, or even 2 (since a lot of guys can only get that), there should be _zero_ people in the UFC who are fighting 2-3 times a year and still making less than a living wage. Not entry-level guys, not outliers, zero. That John Cholish was actually taking a loss after extra expenses is straight-up embarassing, as is the fact that he's hardly alone. It doesn't matter that all the B-Leagues are worse about pay, that means nothing when the UFC is by far the top promotion in the world and supposed to be the standard-bearer for the sport in the first place. While these days it's the minority who have to supplement their income while in the UFC, it's hardly uncommon among the lower-tier fighters, and at this point it's no longer excusable and hasn't been for several years now. I love the UFC but this is one area which is a real eyesore to me.

You know what would be better than a Fighter's Union? Not having a need or reason for one in the first place. Dana and the Fertitas need to be pro-active here.

CindyO, if you're in the UFC, you should not have to work a day job to make ends meet period. Maybe if you're out a year-and-a-half or something (although if you're injured from training I would the UFC would still help you out a bit, let alone injured from a fight), but if you're healthy enough to fight the 2.4 fights a year the UFC offers on average, or even 2 (since a lot of guys can only get that), there should be _zero_ people in the UFC who are fighting 2-3 times a year and still making less than a living wage. Not entry-level guys, not outliers, zero. That John Cholish was actually taking a loss after extra expenses is straight-up embarassing, as is the fact that he's hardly alone. It doesn't matter that all the B-Leagues are worse about pay, that means nothing when the UFC is by far the top promotion in the world and supposed to be the standard-bearer for the sport in the first place. While these days it's the minority who have to supplement their income while in the UFC, it's hardly uncommon among the lower-tier fighters, and at this point it's no longer excusable and hasn't been for several years now. I love the UFC but this is one area which is a real eyesore to me.

You know what would be better than a Fighter's Union? Not having a need or reason for one in the first place. Dana and the Fertitas need to be pro-active here.

What? Why not? Just because you are in the UFC doesn't give you a pass on having a day job. Most boxers have day jobs.

You need to earn your way to being able to live off fighting. It isn't like there is a big amateur market where guys work their way up and get a following before going pro.

nobones -
The thing that makes no sense about John Cholish is that he admits to taking the first offer made to him and then wonders why he wasn't paid better. And he is supposed to have a finance background! Of course the UFC or any organization will try to pay as little as possible for your services. I do agree it would be nice for the UFC to raise their minimum to $20k but when you have idiots like Cholish that agree to fighting for nothing when they don't have to...what do you expect?

Because of the lack of competing orgs, the UFC is in a postion that they can say "take it or leave it." You don't really get to negotiate, which is why Shogun said that you don't need a manager.

caseharts - I will be happy when a Union comes about. 4000 is a tad low imo. Minimum should be 25 k pet fight.

Good for the fighters, but who do you think ultimately pays for the increase in wages? Everyone in here will through PPV, tickets and merchandise increases. I personally am having a hard time justifying one, sometimes two PPV's a month to the boss (aka wife).

Frank Mir Cat - People who think the fighters should be making all the money and the Fertittas should be breaking even don't know shit about the real world. That's not how business works, the boss gets paid and then everyone else, the less valuable to the company, the less you get paid. (Unless you're unionized, in that system, useless pieces of shit can keep their jobs as long as they make their democratic party donations, er...I mean pay their monthly dues)

And with all due respect to Mr. Cholish, I doubt he was generating 8k in ticket sales or PPV buys, so his complaining makes him seem like a ingrate to me.

He doesn't need to generate $8k in ticket sales directly. He provides the UFC with content to put on the card. Without content, they can't sell a $60 PPV card. He is part of the UFC. Customers buy cards with him on it because he is part of the UFC, but the UFC cannot exist without him (and others like him). This is pretty simple.

No. PPVs are for the last 4-5 fights not the undercard. That's why they aren't aired on the PPV unless there's a bunch of time left at the end. This is pretty simple, if someone else hasn't already pointed it out.

Cindy

are you trying to pretend that the UFC doesn't get advertising money for their televised undercards? Are you trying to pretend that significant numbers of fans don't tune into the televised undercards, get all juiced up by the thrilling lower tier fighters performing for peanuts and change the channel to buy the PPV at the end?

CindyO, if you're in the UFC, you should not have to work a day job to make ends meet period. Maybe if you're out a year-and-a-half or something (although if you're injured from training I would the UFC would still help you out a bit, let alone injured from a fight), but if you're healthy enough to fight the 2.4 fights a year the UFC offers on average, or even 2 (since a lot of guys can only get that), there should be _zero_ people in the UFC who are fighting 2-3 times a year and still making less than a living wage. Not entry-level guys, not outliers, zero. That John Cholish was actually taking a loss after extra expenses is straight-up embarassing, as is the fact that he's hardly alone. It doesn't matter that all the B-Leagues are worse about pay, that means nothing when the UFC is by far the top promotion in the world and supposed to be the standard-bearer for the sport in the first place. While these days it's the minority who have to supplement their income while in the UFC, it's hardly uncommon among the lower-tier fighters, and at this point it's no longer excusable and hasn't been for several years now. I love the UFC but this is one area which is a real eyesore to me.

You know what would be better than a Fighter's Union? Not having a need or reason for one in the first place. Dana and the Fertitas need to be pro-active here.

What? Why not? Just because you are in the UFC doesn't give you a pass on having a day job. Most boxers have day jobs.

You need to earn your way to being able to live off fighting. It isn't like there is a big amateur market where guys work their way up and get a following before going pro.

Sorry, but money is made as you win and become more popular.

Why not? Because this isn't motherfucking boxing and even boxing is starting to change their pay structure to give the undercard more. This is the UFC, a sports league, the major leagues of MMA and there is no equivalent in boxing. If you make it to the UFC you are in the top 2-3% of your profession and should be able to fully support yourself on it.

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