The solution to the law is for Apple to raise their prices in all of the countries affected by this extended warranty. Make EU people pay even more for their Apple devices. Apple does not need cheap Europeans buying their stuff. They should pay the extra costs associated with their law, just like they have to pay out of the ass in extra taxes, VAT and all other sorts of EU nonsense.

The price of Apple devices should rise by at least 5% in all EU countries in order to pay for the costs of getting an extended warranty. Fair is fair and everybody should pay their fair share for their services and goods received. Those Euroheads who don't like it can always buy Android or some other crap.

Reasoned and thoughtful reactions seem not to be in fashion these days on planet Earth do they? There is no need to be obnoxious in your response. Like most things in life there is no absolute right or wrong in this. There could well be a situation where a country made such onerous demands Apple would be better to walk away then again there are many situations where Apple and others are obviously better adapting to local laws and customs.

I disagree, the obnoxious response on his part was to prove a point to EyeNsteinNo. What does this have anything to do with absolute right or wrongs? What this has to do with is EyeNsteinNo arrogance. Very irritating arrogance. Do you really honestly think EyeNsteinNo point was that Italy/EU was making an onerous demand of Apple?

They pay the fine. It's not really a big thing for them since they make that much money in one day just in the EU. Probably more than that money even.

Since the issue seems to be that the staff in the stores in Italy don't seem to understand the local laws and how they relate to Apple Care they will have the legal department assist in writing up a clear explanation which they will send out to all the areas in the EU and educate the staff. Then the staff can correctly explain to customers how the whole thing works and the issue is solved

The solution to the law is for Apple to raise their prices in all of the countries affected by this extended warranty. Make EU people pay even more for their Apple devices. Apple does not need cheap Europeans buying their stuff. They should pay the extra costs associated with their law, just like they have to pay out of the ass in extra taxes, VAT and all other sorts of EU nonsense.

The price of Apple devices should rise by at least 5% in all EU countries in order to pay for the costs of getting an extended warranty. Fair is fair and everybody should pay their fair share for their services and goods received. Those Euroheads who don't like it can always buy Android or some other crap.

It's amazing how all your posts are always full of ignorant hatred all the time!

It's amazing how all your posts are always full of ignorant hatred all the time!

It's called business 101 buddy.

Nothing is free in this world and if there is a company making a product that is offered in different regions and if that product comes with an extended warranty in region B, while region A only has a normal warranty, then the cost of the extra service provided will be passed along to the consumers in region B one way or the other.

I am not well-versed in international business law, but does anyone think that Apple is "legally" liable for payment of this fine? If so, do you think they'll just cough up the money and move on? Seriously?

Just as a reminder to anyone saying that the EU is in a big shit. It's true, but it's the US with their dramatic lack of regulation that put us into this, and the only reason the US are not in a crisis is because you increased your debt of more than one trillion dollars. If we had done the same thing there wouldn't be any problem. To this day, the US have almost 3 times the debt of the EU in percentage of income (0,4 years for EU, 1,1 years for US). So it's easy to criticize when your country is responsible for this crisis and just took money out of nowhere. I would worry more about your future, really.

Nothing is free in this world and if there is a company making a product that is offered in different regions and if that product comes with an extended warranty in region B, while region A only has a normal warranty, then the cost of the extra service provided will be passed along to the consumers in region B one way or the other.

While I agree on the business part (not the tone), you are wrong in assuming that this is not already the case. Apple charges Europeans (and Australians and Britons and and and) much more than the exchange rate plus common exchange rate variance risk since, well, forever. Apple does price these local factors in. If they fail to train their staff appropriately, then they will have to (and certainly will) live with fines like this.

If an Apple Store staff member says: "Sorry, you purchased this product 13 months ago, and you will now have to prove that the defect was already present on the day you bought it", Apple is smelling like a rose and the EU is happy. If he/she says "Sorry, only customers who have purchased Apple Care are eligible for service after 12 months", they are fined.

Interestingly, the second statement is consumer-friendly, as it shows the customer a valid way to get an extended warranty, while the EU-mandated implied warranty is (in this case) just a smoke screen. The 24 months implied warranty was mainly established to stop resellers from importing cheap (and sometimes dangerous) crap. The fact that grave design/manufacturing defects have to be resolved for 24 months free of charge have effectively stopped most imports of unsafe and poorly designed articles. This is why the law is (in some cases) good. It even protects serious companies (like Apple), as they do not have to compete with certain cheap imports.

Apple has obviously failed here to educate its staff. If intentionally, negligently or accidentally... I can't say. But the fine is certainly assuming the latter. So, no reason to complain.

For example, Applecare for a $500 iPad is $79 in the US. That's about 16% of the entire cost of the product. If somebody in another region is essentially getting Applecare for free, then I would sure hope that they're paying for it in added initial costs.

Just as a reminder to anyone saying that the EU is in a big shit. It's true, but it's the US with their dramatic lack of regulation that put us into this, and the only reason the US are not in a crisis is because you increased your debt of more than one trillion dollars. If we had done the same thing there wouldn't be any problem. To this day, the US have almost 3 times the debt of the EU in percentage of income (0,4 years for EU, 1,1 years for US). So it's easy to criticize when your country is responsible for this crisis and just took money out of nowhere. I would worry more about your future, really.

Not trying to get into a fight, but I personally subscribe to the notion that there's far too much regulation in the world. Each country's government is trying to do too much. But to correct you, the US is very much in crisis. There's a $15 tillion dollar budget liability, and that's not even countying the $35-50 trillion dollars in promises to Medicare and Social Security. I am very worried about our future.

If an Apple Store staff member says: "Sorry, you purchased this product 13 months ago, and you will now have to prove that the defect was already present on the day you bought it", Apple is smelling like a rose and the EU is happy. If he/she says "Sorry, only customers who have purchased Apple Care are eligible for service after 12 months", they are fined.

Congratulations, dreyfus2, for your excellent , well argumented and informative posts. Your example demonstrates that Apple stores vendors should have training on legal matters, which is far from being obvious, given the complexity of all possible situations....

On the other hand, I feel this judgment is unfair to Apple, because in the two cases I had a problem with an Apple device, I had no problem to get it fixed (in one case , by replacement with a brand new product). I even had a case where I had subscribed a warranty from the seller (FNAC, which was not directly Apple). It turned out that activating that warranty was problematic for me (I would have lost all data on my machine). Apple accepted to replace the motherboard of my machine (a MacBook) at no cost (at that time I had no AppleCare protection, but this was not even necessary). From this day on, I subscribe to Apple care, and nothing else ...

Hello to everyone.
I'm italian (and I guess you are going to note it by my english ) and article is not fully correct.
Italian law oblige sellers to warrant sold products for two years (and not makers).
Problems for Apple are concerned their stores (retail and online). But if I bought an Apple product from another store, there is any legal problem.
Anyway, this in an european law and I suppose Apple needs Europe I'm curious to know how Apple is going to settle this little matter. Abroad it could seem a little problem, but I'm sure that other companies could be take advantage from this situation.

Byee
Pierluigi

Simple. They'll pay the fine, re-educate their sales people, train their managers, and change a few words in their marketing materials.

Basically, it comes down to how they're promoting their products - not the product itself. It will be very easy to fix.

Quote:

Originally Posted by ClemyNX

That regulation actually applies to all EU countries. And in EU we can do whatever law we want, no need for your approval, thanks.

Apart from all the racist diminishing bigotry in here, Apple didn't respect local regulations and was fined that small sum. EU says all products have a 2 year guarantee, and Apple misled buyers by making them believe that Applecare covered 2 years more than the normal guarantee, when in reality it overlapped it.

So it's a simple misunderstanding that Apple can fix by changing their marketing materials and re-training their sales people and managers. Not that big of a deal.

"I'm way over my head when it comes to technical issues like this"Gatorguy 5/31/13

First of all, this is an European directive, incorporated in the Italian law.
It states that all goods bought by consumers (so, not companies) must have a warranty of 2 years offered by the *seller* (please note: NOT the producer).
Apple, by itself, offers an additional 1-year warranty as the producer.

As long as you buy Apple products from a 3rd party reseller (an Apple Premium Reseller, for example), you get the 1-year warranty from Apple AND the 2-year warranty from the seller (of course, Apple's warranty is better, as they replace your product in quick times).

The problem, however, arises when you buy DIRECTLY from Apple, via the Apple Store Online or in a Apple Store (one of the 9 we have in Italy).
In this case, the seller coincides with the producer, so Apple should offer the 2-year warranty.
In the web site, or in a Apple Store, however, it's nowhere written that the warranty lasts 2 years in this case.
That's the origin of the fine!

Last october, also, the civil court of Vicenza (a city in Northern Italy) stated clearly that.
A student bought a MacBook Pro from Apple, and it broke after 1 year and half. Apple refused to offer free repair, and the court condemned them.

PS: To those saying "Apple Care is not necessary anymore, then"... Well, it's necessary to get the second year of warranty from Apple when you buy from a 3rd party seller. So the warranty is from Apple and not another company...

PS2: Apologize for mistakes. Speaking about laws in another language is not that easy

Yes, it looks like Apple messed up and your suggestion is one possible solution.

In the end, though, it is extremely difficult for a multinational to comply with all the local regulations and all of the fine print. Here's what the above-linked article says:
"Apple did not fully implement for consumers the two-year legal guarantee from sellers and also that the company did not provide clear information on coverage of additional premium services."

It sounds like it's not a simple matter of Apple failing to offer a 2 year warranty. Rather, it's some technicality that they failed to implement. And that's quite difficult to do in 160 countries (many of which, like the United States, have multiple different authorities). Apple messed up, they will pay the fine and fix the problem.

No, Apple's been selling in Italy online for many years, and in retail stores for 5 years. I'm sure there were Italian lawyers involved in Apple setting up the real estate transactions, getting licenses and permits, etc. They had to know about the country's warranty law - it's a basic consumer law, not some hidden fine print. Apple is a consumer company.

It's not a technicality - Apple was telling consumers the free warranty was only for one year (and maybe not even repairing items under warranty after one year). They also tried to sell them extended warranties they didn't need because they should have already been covered for two years. What would your reaction be if Dell did this?

I'm guessing that the 2 year warranty is a European Union requirement. We have the same 2 year warranty on everything you buy here in the Czech Republic. So, that makes your concern about a warranty service nightmare less of an issue since the 27 EU countries would all have the same requirements.

Think it's country dependent actually. Personally, I'm not against a 2 year warranty, wonder if I can source my next Mac in Milan?

But the conclusion is that Apple did screw up here, they did break Italian law, and I'm 100% sure that they'll pay the fine and alter their terms. At the end of the day businesses can make mistakes.

The solution to the law is for Apple to raise their prices in all of the countries affected by this extended warranty. Make EU people pay even more for their Apple devices. Apple does not need cheap Europeans buying their stuff. They should pay the extra costs associated with their law, just like they have to pay out of the ass in extra taxes, VAT and all other sorts of EU nonsense.

The price of Apple devices should rise by at least 5% in all EU countries in order to pay for the costs of getting an extended warranty. Fair is fair and everybody should pay their fair share for their services and goods received. Those Euroheads who don't like it can always buy Android or some other crap.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Apple ][

It's called business 101 buddy.

Nothing is free in this world and if there is a company making a product that is offered in different regions and if that product comes with an extended warranty in region B, while region A only has a normal warranty, then the cost of the extra service provided will be passed along to the consumers in region B one way or the other.

No. Apple can make 5% less profit and treat their costumers better. But I guess they don't teach costumer relations in business 101. Or you can post 5% less comments.

No. Apple can make 5% less profit and treat their costumers better. But I guess they don't teach costumer relations in business 101. Or you can post 5% less comments.

Actually, we are already paying that 5% more....

Apple is applying a 1:1 exchange ratio or almost.
So, the basic iPhone 4S, unlocked, costs 659 euros, while it is 649 dollars in the USA.
Prices in Italy already include VAT (currently at 21%), so the net price is 545 euros, which are 712 US$ at the moment (also, consider the euro plunged in the last weeks).
So, we are paying about 70$ more for the same thing.

Ok, selling in Europe could be more expensive also for other reasons: Apple needs to create subsidiaries, needs insurances to protect from sudden changes in exchange ratios, etc...

apple is an insignificant speck in comparison to any developed economy, even one tanking as badly as italy

Actually, Italian economy is not negative on all fronts. During the latest couple years export has been fine - finer than Germany during the latest few months (+8.4%). But an incredibly high public debt (>120%, and growing), plus the highest taxation figures in the world (~54%, and growing) has diminished internal trade and import. Apple products have been victims of the recent trend, but cell phones are still one of the best selling goods in the Country. Armageddon will find us chatting, and we will probably continue after the first few impacts.

While totally agreeing in theory I'm curious (hopefully someone will here will explain this) what happens when you walk over a border in Europe to a country with different laws and regulations with a Mac and require warranty service. Do you only get coverage in the country of origin or are the warranties honored elsewhere? If so ... what a nightmare that would be where these time differences in the warranties occur.

Apple's warranty, like that of any manufacturer, is valid across the 27 Member States of the European Union. You can go to any Apple Service in any EU country to have your product repaired.

No, Apple's been selling in Italy online for many years, and in retail stores for 5 years. I'm sure there were Italian lawyers involved in Apple setting up the real estate transactions, getting licenses and permits, etc. They had to know about the country's warranty law - it's a basic consumer law, not some hidden fine print. Apple is a consumer company.

It's not a technicality - Apple was telling consumers the free warranty was only for one year (and maybe not even repairing items under warranty after one year). They also tried to sell them extended warranties they didn't need because they should have already been covered for two years. What would your reaction be if Dell did this?

The info on the site IS clear enough.
The problem is that Italian Law "Codice del Consumo" D.L. 206 - 6 September 2005, says the warranty is two years.
The law is part of the European Consumer Law.

In the site is said "Tutti i Mac e monitor Apple includono una garanzia limitata di un anno" = "All Mac and Apple Monitor has a warranty limited to one year", the statement is against the law.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Curmudgeon

No government should have the right to tell any business how they must warrant their products.

The government is made by citizens.
The government has to protect its citizens. Also when the citizens are consumers.

Quote:

Originally Posted by digitalclips

I'm curious (hopefully someone will here will explain this) what happens when you walk over a border in Europe to a country with different laws and regulations with a Mac and require warranty service. Do you only get coverage in the country of origin or are the warranties honored elsewhere?.

Since it is an European law, you have no problem in the whole Europe.
Right now you can buy a Mac in a Country and have it repaired in a different one.

Since price differential is crazy, it is worth to buy a Mac in a different country. The only problem for the MacBook is the keyboard.

They've had it called to their attention before. It wasn't an oversight. Apple attempted to skirt the requirement by claiming they didn't sell to consumers so it wasn't their problem.

Ok, I didn't know Apple had an official argument.
I was wondering about this myself and came to a similar argument.
But the problem is Apple does sell directly to consumers (even in Holland without official Apple stores) via the online Apple store.
Online stores have the same rules regarding warranties and must comply to them according to European law.
So its not just Holland or Italy, but all European countries and this is in effect for 10 years or more.

It was just a matter of time before Apple had to comply to this. It is strange it took so long.
Apple does comply to other rules like showing prices of products with taxes (in Holland consumer advertising must include the taxes) so I don't think this is an oversight.

The fine was due to Apple and it's seller's failing to follow/disclose Italian law that provided a 2-year guarantee rather than Apple's typical 1 year. In addition, reading between the lines, I believe they've also claimed Apple and it's seller's failed to disclose the paid year two warranty provided by Apple Care coverage overlapped the year 2 free product guarantee provided under Italian law.

"The decision came at the end of an inquiry that proved Apple did not fully implement for consumers the two-year legal guarantee from sellers and also that the company did not provide clear information on coverage of additional premium services"

Forgive me for my English, but I want to tell you that the article is misleading the Italian law.

First of all, Italian warranty law follows the European Act, and while it's true that the product must be covered for 2-years guarantee, there's a confusion about "what kind of guarantee is applied for the 2-years term".

European (and Italian) law specifies two different kind of guarantee: legal guarantee and conventional guarantee.

The first one guarantees that a product will have free service or replacement only if the product is not conform according of what advertised (e.g.: slower CPU, less RAM, smaller hard disk and so on), and the guarantee is limited to 2-years.

The second one warranty that a product will have free service only for broken or fail functionality from a manufacturing fault, and the term is regulated for "one year minimum".

The Italian AGCOM fees Apple not because Apple did not provided the warranty according to local law, but because Apple did not inform their clients about their rights and the existence of a 2-year guarantee (even if it's the "legal" one) pushing them to buy the AppleCare protection plan, overlapping the second-year of paid AppleCare with the free second-year of guarantee provided by the law.

For example, Applecare for a $500 iPad is $79 in the US. That's about 16% of the entire cost of the product. If somebody in another region is essentially getting Applecare for free, then I would sure hope that they're paying for it in added initial costs.

It's not Applecare for free. I mean, when you buy an Applecare warranty extension, you don't have to prove that the product was defective, do you?

Remember: the EU law says that after the first six months, the customer has to provide proof that the product was defective when manufactured. This is, if the law was followed strictly, then you would only enjoy a "true" warranty of six months, and then, you would have to work and prove that Apple (in this case) sold you a defective product.

In practice, all makers (at least in Spain, where I live) give customers one year of good/inconditional warranty, and after this year, they conveniently forget about the second year, giving you a full extra-warranty only if you pay for it. If you don't pay, then you'll probably have to sue them and prove in court or with the help of technical analysis that the product was defective when bought. You have the risk then, of losing, and keeping a defective product, after having wasted money in a lawyer, and you have to pay the trial expenses, or if you win, then Apple will have to pay for everything (trial expenses included). You could probably get a deal with Apple if you are sure you could win that trial, but that wouldn't be the most frequent case.

Products sold by Apple come with a standard one-year warranty and option to buy a second year through AppleCare, but local laws require companies to protect buyers with a free two-year warranty. Italian authorities determined that Apple "did not fully implement for consumers the two-year legal guarantee from sellers."

1. The seller shall be held liable under Article 3 where the lack of conformity becomes apparent within two years as from delivery of the goods. If, under national legislation, the rights laid down in Article 3(2) are subject to a limitation period, that period shall not expire within a period of two years from the time of delivery.

Quote:

Originally Posted by frenchseb

Country needs Apple more than Apple needs country (replace country with anyone except US and China...)