But this just cannot happen anymore. Materials in architecture are heavily regulated. How is it conceivable in this day and age, in the heart of Western Europe, under the oppressive rule of the EU, that a building only recently restored can nonetheless be covered by illegal material on the outside, where any building inspector can see it?

Ah that explains how the fire was able to jump floors. Ok, next question is who manufactured a very flammable and unsafe building material & who at the building materials regulatory body approved it(which being in Europe we know this is a huge, well funded agency).

And if it was unapproved who broke the rules and installed it, and which building inspector missed it. We are talking about 80 dead here.

Are "we" ? Don't speak for anyone except yourself in future. I already stated that I am assuming they are all fake until proven otherwise. So either prove they existed or kindly STFU.

The final Grenfell Tower fire toll will not be known until at least the end of the year, with 80 people currently presumed dead, police say.The vast majority of those who died were said to be in 23 of the North Kensington building's 129 flats.The 14June fire destroyed 151homes, most in the tower block, but also a number of surrounding properties.Det Supt Fiona McCormack said the full toll will only be known when the search and recovery operation is over.

Our member "Thisisunreal" (here is his handshake intro) asked me, via personal e-mail, if the (below-quoted) thoughts of his regarding the Grenfell Tower 'incident' were of any relevance, and asked me to post them myself at my discretion (because he's had problems logging in to the forum lately - as he had forgotten his password).

In his e-mail, he said that "I leave it to you (if I may) as to whether to post it. I felt it may seem slightly awkward or irrelevant sat in the middle of the thread, given what had gone before and the discussion already achieved. I was quite pleased with it because the quotes were taken from the news as it broke and it seemed pretty 'incredible' as the morning broke and the day wore on. I also became slightly unsure whether this is the kind of thing you are looking for. It is my first post and didn't want to miss the point and cause annoyance."

Well, I found his thoughts & observations quite interesting - so I am hereby forwarding them to our readers :

thisisunreal wrote:Apologies for the late post, I have had login issues and have been travelling in between times.

Some thoughts, quotes and observations on Grenfell Tower

Below are selected quotes from a BBC web page, that was updated every few minutes with no attributed journalist or sources for quotes, which strikes me as incredible. I watched the story develop from 7.30 am onwards throughout the day taking quotes as they became more intriguing, fanciful and reminiscent of a certain other tower related catastrophe.

"fears the building might collapse"!

"The whole building is crumbling"

"don't jump, don't jump".

"Now, honestly I don't know for certain if people jumped off the building to get away from the fire, but the main thing for me with this incident is the fact that the fire alarms didn't go off in the building,"

"I watched one person falling out, I watched another woman holding her baby out the window... hearing screams, I was yelling everyone to get down and they were saying 'We can't leave our apartments, the smoke is too bad on the corridors'."

"I've been watching people in their windows, flashing with their phones, and then slowly watching those apartments get engulfed in flames and smoke."

"I was screaming at people in the building that were looking out of the windows, trying to wake people up, telling them: 'Get out of the building!'

"And they were screaming back at me: 'We can't! The corridors are full of smoke!”

"Residents point to plastic cladding as the problem"

"They were trapped. They couldn’t come downstairs, especially from the top floor … people have been burned”.

"I have seen it with my own eyes. And I have seen people jump."

"screaming for help, and shouting for their children to be saved".

“Appeals are being made on social media for news of missing friends and relatives, who might have been caught in the blaze”.

- The story had turned into a pre-packaged, already sewn up ‘whodunit’ by 7.55 AM UK time instead of a focus on the humanitarian loss of life.

- There was already a firm agenda of what was responsible and why by 7.55 AM. Even the main early witnesses, used the word “cladding” as if this is common parlance or indeed anybody might have any inkling whatsoever that cladding may enhance a building's ability to burn or indeed what cladding is.

- References and images of the website for the Grenfell Action Group were already circulating 7.55 AM before offices opened in the UK. How is this possible?

- Evocative of another former tower incident in predicting its collapse

- Fanciful tale of a baby throw and catch

- Insane elements such as signalling using a mobile phone, instead of using it to call for help

People inside

The quotes above and narrative solidify the notion that people were trapped inside. This proposition is reinforced by the fanciful story of a baby being dropped and caught from the 9th or 10th floor.

The story has developed into an all encompassing political football used to bring Theresa May closer to the edge or end of her tenure. The media circus around the event makes it clear that the media play the tune whilst the lowly politicians have to dance to the music.

But why?

The cladding is repeatedly pointed to as being the key issue in the story. Building cladding and its performance is the remit of the construction industry and nothing else. I do not understand this mock political edge or responsibility. I do not understand why politicians feel the need to court this outrage and indulge this indignation. If the cladding was poor then heads must roll in the construction industry. In terms of a story it does not make logical sense.

Media circus

Grenfell tower has been in the media every day since the fire. I have become very suspicious about what the fire is covering in the way of genuine news. Perhaps the extremely shocking Qatar story that goes largely unremarked on as the USA extend their influence again using the catch all excuse of fighting global terror.

Dear Thisiunreal, please do not fear posting your thoughts on Cluesforum in the future. You seem to be blessed with some quite sharp & functional brain matter.

Mr Mackey said the "extraordinary size of crime scene" meant the "only comparable advice" that could be found was from investigators who worked on the collapse of the World Trade Center in 2001.He added: "Without wanting to be too graphic... the fire in some parts of that building [Grenfell] burned at over 1,000 degrees for a considerable period of time.

It's wrong of me to generalise as this is actually aimed at myself and not others [though it may be worth taking note, hopefully...] but there tends to be a sense of apathy creeping in with the quantity of these "sigh"-ops and the amount of garbage they spew out therein long after the event.

I am referring in this instance to the following article, which I was initially going to skip over having audibly groaned a few times.

Of course stories like this keep the issue "alive" and imply that people still died even though the person in question is quite categorically showing that [at least as far as the gen-pop are concerned] some didn't die at all and were never present - almost a joke within a joke by TPTB.

Note that I am not implying that this "Anh Nhu Nguyen" is real, in fact I can't help but think his name [if said by English country-folk] is almost a homophone for "I knew him lying"

Fraudster who claimed family died in Grenfell Tower jailed for 21 months

He had 28 previous convictions for 56 offences spanning more than 30 years, including theft, dishonesty, arson and grievous bodily harm

Hmmm...so this will be his 29th conviction...2+9...as well as 5+6 offences...

Nguyen, who has lived in the UK since the 1980s, had 17 aliases.

Presumably with his "real name" he has 1+8 names...

He then described deciding to leave with his wife and son, “stepping over bodies” as the family descended the stairs. When he reached the 11th floor, he said, his wife and son were no longer with him.

Of course...the 11th floor...

I know that this is stretching it a bit but I cannot help but think that TPTB "cock-a-snook" at us with these numbers even with a 21 month sentence i.e. 21 x 30 = 630 days, 6+3...yada, yada, yada...

Anyway, as a footnote [and without trying to be "preachy" albeit mainly to myself] we should strive to attempt to record these instances and categorise them to some degree so that "newbies", or those who may be willing to contemplate other scenarios than the ones peddled by TPTB, can at least see that issues such as "numbers' or other such elements in these stories, are not scattered intermittently/wildly, but actually prevail throughout all of the different "sigh"-ops constantly.

It is only tenuous/circumstantial evidence but I am sure in the "real world" people have actually been convicted on less.