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Author
Topic: Woman jailed for giving lover HIV (Read 28104 times)

Now, I'm all in favour of those of us living with hiv having our virus stop with us.

However.

I just watched the coverage of this story on the BBC six'o'clock news and I'm furious. The newsreader said that this case should send a strong message to people with hiv blah blah blah, that we must be very careful blah blah blah... but NOWHERE was there mention that people who don't have hiv - or don't know their status - must be careful and use condoms if they are not 100% sure of their status or their partner's status.

And they wonder why this pandemic just keeps growing and growing and growing. The person who make the decision to not use condoms and ends up hiv positive is portrayed as a poor hapless victim with no responsibility. It makes me so angry I could weep.

Not once did they urge people to use condoms. Nope. They only urged people who know that they are positive to disclose so the poor vulnerable neggies could decide whether they wanted to engage in sex. The attitude behind all this makes me sick. It really does. A perfect opportunity to remind people to use condoms - lost again. Damn it! In fact, the whole thing gives the impression not that condoms could prevent cases like this, no, it gives the impression that hiv positive people should not even be touched and certainly should not have relationships.

Damn it damn it damn it!

I just had to vent. Damn it! Stupid bastards!

Why can't they just say - use condoms - and leave all the judgemental crap alone! How are we EVER going to put an end to hiv???

"...health will finally be seen not as a blessing to be wished for, but as a human right to be fought for." Kofi Annan

Nymphomaniac: a woman as obsessed with sex as an average man. Mignon McLaughlin

HIV is certainly character-building. It's made me see all of the shallow things we cling to, like ego and vanity. Of course, I'd rather have a few more T-cells and a little less character. Randy Shilts

This is precisely why I am opposed to these laws. They perpetuate the HIV=predator stigma and the "innocent victim" status of the poor uninformed.

Until and unless we hold both parties in a consensual act mutually accountable for their part in preventing HIV, we will never, ever see an end to this pandemic.

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"Many people, especially in the gay community, turn to oral sex as a safer alternative in the age of AIDS. And with HIV rates rising, people need to remember that oral sex is safer sex. It's a reasonable alternative."

I agree, Ann. That's one argument, to me, against disclosing at all. Last fall, I told a guy I was negative. I thought I was. My last test indicated that I was. I wasn't; I was positive. If, instead of asking if I was poz, the guy had insisted on a condom, well.... It was one of my sluttier moments, but I don't know if he's still negative, as I don't know him. Relying on disclosure as a safe sex measure does as much a disservice to the 'poor vulnerable neggies' as doing absolutely nothing. Assume the potential partner is poz and act accordingly. Doing anything else is putting oneself at risk. Counting on disclosure is about like depending on the guy to pull out to avoid getting pregnant. People get all worked up, horny, drunk, in a situation where sex is a given... who honestly expects somebody to disclose anything? Disclosure in a relationship is a different thing, obviously, and I would expect a greater sense of honesty. I think often people take risk because they don't want to go to the trouble of avoiding them. Then, when they get caught, they want to blame somebody else. It seems like personal accountability is really lacking these days.

There are exceptions to this, obviously. A cheating partner, failure of a condom, etc are all different. But again, I count on my seat belt and air bag to help save me in the event of an accident when I drive. They are not an excuse to not use good judgement when driving. With all the BS judgement going on, the stigma will remain. It reminds me of how we (the general public) need to get back to basics. It's like the '80's again.

So here we are...25 years later into AIDS and things are the same. Only difference, 25 years ago this was strictly a "gay man's" virus...and we all know that that has changed. Everyone is vulnerable to HIV/AIDS.

It has been said by many that it is difficult for women to transmit HIV to a man, than it is for a man to transmit to a woman. Well, seems to me that this thinking is archaic and must stop. It is time to deal with HIV/AIDS as it is with truthfulness. Anyone can be infected if they are not practicing safe sex. AIDS does not discriminate either way (man to man, man to woman, woman to man (as is the case here) and yes I'll even go so far as to include woman to woman) when status is not known and protection is not used -- there is a risk no matter how you slice it. Until AIDS is in full view, nothing will change. The public in general needs an informed and concise education. It's high time our government, along with other powers that be, get on the fucking ball and take this issue right out in the open through the media or whatever... How many more people are going to be infected before reality sets in?

We, as poz people, are aware of the risks and as such, most of us do our utmost NOT to infect others. This is the way it is... The woman here in this case, welllll… since she willingly had sex without disclosing her status she deserves punishment. Jail time, I don’t know. Seems over the top to me…Community service, absolutely. Personally, I believe it's wrong to do what she has done...a moral issue. I don't condone her actions, or rather, her inactions. I guess that’s why I find it important for me to do something (not quite sure what it is) to stop the stigma… yes, I too had sex back when I first knew my status without disclosing and I’m not proud of it. Had I not been so fucking stigmatized in the 1980’s, I wouldn’t have been reckless with others and myself. Had I known what I know today, I would have done things a bit differently for sure. I guess I’m kind of doing my community service these days by “coming out.”

What bothers me most about all of this is that after 25 years we are still in the same place. And it all has to do with STIGMA!! Everyone’s afraid to talk about HIV/AIDS and the facts. The facts: CONDOMS!!! THEY NEED TO BE USED IF HAVING SEX. AND PEOPLE NEED TO KNOW THEIR STATUS. PERIOD! Most of us who do know our status are more precautiuos than those who don't know their staus. And I won't even talk about abstinence - it's nonsense.

Educating the public is the key to end the stigma and stop this pandemic. Talking about HIV openly, which I'm trying my best to do, is the only way to get to that goal. I don’t see any other way. I really don’t…

And I’m bothered by it all.

I just don’t get it…

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"People grow through experience if they meet life honestly and courageously. This is how character is buit." Eleanor Roosevelt

Even HIv positive people do not get the right information about safer sex and transmission vectors. THAt scares me. I hope those infected with HIV will read our own LESSONS section on transmission. Please believe me, it's one of the most scientifically accurate and well researched things I have ever read.

I mean, if those of us with HIV don't learn the vectors for transmission, with our vested interest... then how can we expect the negative community, who comes to us for education, to get the right answers?

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"Many people, especially in the gay community, turn to oral sex as a safer alternative in the age of AIDS. And with HIV rates rising, people need to remember that oral sex is safer sex. It's a reasonable alternative."

I hope those infected with HIV will read our own LESSONS section on transmission. Please believe me, it's one of the most scientifically accurate and well researched things I have ever read.

Thank you. I will do exactly that within the next 6 hours. jk, did anyone tell you your avatar reminds them of the matrix in the Brady Bunch opening segment? that's the way they all became the Brady Bunch

hehe. I was thinkking about that. I'm smiling up at Greg I think.. though I had/have a huge crush on Peter.

heh heh. I said peter.

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"Many people, especially in the gay community, turn to oral sex as a safer alternative in the age of AIDS. And with HIV rates rising, people need to remember that oral sex is safer sex. It's a reasonable alternative."

Ann, I guess the news media in the UK is only interested in making the story provokative and ratingings; same here in the U S, worse most likely. Our world news is limited to what they want to exploit for ratings. No such thing as 'world' news here; and the local stories are just one station's view and never a follow up. Guess the news media doesn't want to get in truoble promoting safe sex or anything else except murder and maheim. They leave that to the billions spent on info messages no one pays any attention to...spend the money on research not useless warnings and annoucements for 30 seconds while I blink or am in the other room getting some snacks til my program resumes. If anyone in the media sticks their neck out in the U S and makes an editorial comment(like using condoms), they get bitch slapped or fired. DOn't get me started on the lack of free done of press and speech in the U S; Right wingers and corporations rule, not the people: $$$$$$$$$$! (FOR NOW ANYWAY

I don't know I read the article and I must say she is getting exactly what she deserves!! They should throw away the key!! She recklessly had sex, KNOWING!! I repeat, KNOWING!! She even admitted to telling a person to not to use protection when he brought the subject up.

I hate to be so honest, but she can burn in hell and she can be put there by all negative people...As a matter a fact I will help them!!

Do all people that infect someone know? No, of course not!! This woman here absolutely knew!! I have no pity for her and anyone like her who knowingly infects someone!! Or who puts someone at risk just for their own gratification.. Shame on her and others who think she's not wrong!!

P.S public annoucements are as carefully scripted just as editorials(only at the end of news casts and pertains to nothing u might have just seen); it's like advertising, lies and deception for money. If it isn't the news media's job to infrom, then whose is it? One sentence about preventative measures might have reached someone that wasn't away during a commercial or public annoucement!!!!

Thomas, we will have to agree to disagree on that one. Unless, of course, the woman's partner is charged with attempted suicide for not using condoms. Parity in legislation and all that.

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"Many people, especially in the gay community, turn to oral sex as a safer alternative in the age of AIDS. And with HIV rates rising, people need to remember that oral sex is safer sex. It's a reasonable alternative."

I though this was more about the news media missing an opportunity to promote safe sex. BUT yes, anyone knowingly spreading this thnig needs to be shot immediately, or is that too harsh? On the other hand, I have told prospective partners I was poz and they said they didn't care, only liked it raw; of course I gave them a lecture and sent them on their way, BUT?!? That's a big frigin' BUT when there are so many nut cases that don't give a shit.

"Many people, especially in the gay community, turn to oral sex as a safer alternative in the age of AIDS. And with HIV rates rising, people need to remember that oral sex is safer sex. It's a reasonable alternative."

I have told prospective partners I was poz and they said they didn't care, only liked it raw; of course I gave them a lecture and sent them on their way, BUT?!? That's a big frigin' BUT when there are so many nut cases that don't give a shit.

hmmmmm, today i find myself nowhere near as nutty-slutty as before ... am i to be stoned for past nuttiness? i was sssoooo repressed (no booze/drugs/junk/cigs, working on wall street over 40 hours a week) that my escape was (was, was, WAS) reckless barebacking where guys never disclosed nor asked. it was a code of silence. but that era's over

Exactly, JK. Also, I can see it getting to the point where somebody who didn't know they were HIV+ being prosecuted because they were negligent in getting tested. That woman was wrong to have lied; that's a given. People know smoking causes cancer (how many here smoke?) but still do it. Smoking's an addiction, so it's different? Not really. People have to be responsible for their own health and safety. There is no other option, unless we get some sort of warning mark on our foreheads or maybe sent off to an HIV/AIDS colony.

I agree that proving intent is a sticking point, but if a positive person insists on having sex with negative partner, and not only chooses not to disclose, but then takes it a step further by insisting or encouraging that a condom not be used...well, that certainly rings like intent to me.

But where do you draw the line? I don't feel the need to disclose when some hot guy at the local bar leans in to give me a deep, wet kiss (like that happens everyday...). I've not disclosed before going down on someone, or before he goes down on me (although I don't let him stay there for very long.) I've not disclosed before rimming, but I don't allow him to do it. And if I get to that point of intercourse, I'm generally too concerned about disclosing to allow it to happen, or to proceed with the relationship at all.

(edited to add: intercourse doesn't happen without a condom, ever!)

Or I disclose from the very beginning.

In short, I tend to throw myself under the bus, sexually speaking. I will take the risks and not allow a partner to.

I think cases such as this, meant to punish those with HIV for non-disclosure, have one big unhappy side effect. They inadvertantly encourage people to NOT get tested for HIV. As long as folks don't know their status, they can have all the sex of whatever type they prefer and unwittingly infect as many people as they want, with no consequences brought upon them by society.

I know several guys who will not get tested because they know once they do, and if they are found to be positive, then the party is over. To them, ignorance is bliss. So they happily have multiple sexual encounters, possibly spreading an undiagnosed and uncontrolled viremia, to all they come in sexual contact with.

I would argue that sex with someone HIV positive, on stable HAART, with an undetectible viral load, is far less risky than sex with someone unknowingly positive, either through non-testing or with a neg test but in the window period, with a high viral load, who is shedding virus like crazy from every bodily fluid possible. Now mind you, I'm not encouraging HIVers to have unsafe sex, or not to disclose, but to place all the burden on us for not spreading the virus is absurd, and counterproductive to slowing down this pandemic.

Studies have shown that once people are diagnosed with HIV, they, in almost all cases, change their behavior to avoid passing the virus along. We are not the enemy. Ignorance is. The few exceptions to this should be dealt with through education and community service, certainly not jail time.

Testing needs to be encouraged. As should personal responsibility. The message should be ...if you contract HIV through sexual contact, it is your fault, not the fault of your sexual contact. So get tested, not for others, but for your own health and well-being.

Thanks to the news casts and political garbage, PREVENTION is all so being overlooked. The GAP that truly exists today needs to be filled in for this pandemic!

I'm sorry but...when an opportunity presents itself to BROADCAST to the WORLD, then IT SHOULD be taken to stress PREVENTION and not to hold a single person accountable.

It is so simple, 'Everyone put on a condom before you have sex whether you are HIV or not" There are people out there who will not even know that they are positive and they are speading it like wildfire because the never bothered to check themselves!

There should be a mandate for HIV testing, it will certianly reduce the numbers.

Just venting.

Eldon

There is hope and it is coming around the corner but from where? Good question.

Yes, the main jist of my rant was over the condom issue. I about hit the roof when the newsreader said that bit about "you positive people better be careful..." or we're gonna lock your ass up. (paraphrased, of course)

Yes, I agree we have a responsibility to make sure our virus stops with us. However, I also believe that EVERYONE has that responsibility. What pissed me off so much about the newscast was not so much that she was prosecuted, but rather than take the opportunity to cut down on the chance of cases like these even happening by promoting condoms, they simply shook their collective hiv negative fingers at us and said "naughty naughty, keep your virus to yourselves." It takes two to tango damn it!

As long as the media keep sending out these types of messages - that someone who becomes hiv positive is not responsible at all and their partner is a criminal - then we are never, ever going to stop this pandemic. We need to get people to understand that condom use is their responsibility and to agree to have unprotected intercourse is to consent to the possibility of being infected with a sexually transmitted disease. It really is as stark and simple as that.

I'm not even getting into the particulars of this specific case. I'm talking about the way it and others like it are being publicised and the disservice they are doing to us all. The six-o-clock news has a wide audience; what a perfect opportunity to get a real message across, one that will save lives, not criminalise a disease.

And on to another point...

There was a comment in the broadcast about this woman ("she had trouble accepting her status") that doesn't appear in the print version. (just as the quotes at the bottom of the article weren't broadcast) It sounds as though this woman was in serious denial over her status. Here in the UK, the medical care we receive is excellent - but counseling? transmission information? Huh? What's that? It's an area where we are being neglected to everyone's peril. Some areas deal with these aspects better than others. Here on the Rock, we have no case worker, there is no counselor who has even met an hiv positive person... when I was diagnosed I was told over and over again... "we don't know what to tell you..." Outrageous.

We are criminalising people who are victims in their own right. We are criminalising people who the system has let down over and over and over again. We are expecting people who become positive to suddenly become experts in transmission knowledge just by virtue of having the virus in our bodies, as if the viral particles that cross the blood/brain barrier whisper their secrets into our grey matter. There is no - or very little - checking in with people to find out where their heads are at. I blame the system for letting this woman slip through the cracks. There were obviously problems, why weren't they caught? It is this assumption that we suddenly become experts the moment we are diagnosed that is at the heart of it all.

This is a tragedy that could have been, should have been prevented. This is the tragedy of a six year old boy caught up in the middle of his mother being criminalised and stigmatized in the highest order. This is the tragedy of yet another preventable hiv infection. This is the tragedy of yet another hiv positive person falling through the social care cracks and many people paying the price.

The whole thing stinks to high heaven. Damn it damn it damn it!

The government who seem unwilling to spend cash on education and mental health care seem more than willing to prosecute where ignorance and illness has prevailed. Ignorance that they should be helping to prevent but instead are perpetuating in their State sanctioned media broadcast. Damn it damn it damn it all! When will they wake up?

"...health will finally be seen not as a blessing to be wished for, but as a human right to be fought for." Kofi Annan

Nymphomaniac: a woman as obsessed with sex as an average man. Mignon McLaughlin

HIV is certainly character-building. It's made me see all of the shallow things we cling to, like ego and vanity. Of course, I'd rather have a few more T-cells and a little less character. Randy Shilts

For you non UK people, the crime is "reckless" transmission which does not require proof of intent (that's "intentional" in UK law). Indeed, in one previous case (5 years inside) the defendant was not even proven to be HIV-positive, just "likely" to be on some South African doctor's say so (he pleaded guilty).

I've never met a straight bloke in London who (a) thought straight blokes (or women for that matter) got HIV (2) took much persuading, if any, not to use a condom (3) many people who don;t think it's the first person to have HIV in the situation who is at fault (cos they invented it, right?) ....

Thank you so much for expressing exactly what I have been trying to put forth.

Since reading this, I'm more frustrated and pissed off than ever before, but of course not at you Ann... for as you wrote,

"The government who seem unwilling to spend cash on education and mental health care seem more than willing to prosecute where ignorance and illness has prevailed. Ignorance that they should be helping to prevent but instead are perpetuating in their State sanctioned media broadcast. Damn it damn it damn it all! When will they wake up?"

This is what frustrates me and pisses me off!

Thank you for setting things right. I totally agree with you.

Trish

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"People grow through experience if they meet life honestly and courageously. This is how character is buit." Eleanor Roosevelt

I saw that on the news as well Ann. It would interesting to know if the possible mental state of this woman was taken into account and what emotional support was available to her after diagnosis before they decided to throw her into prison. Obviously i'm coming from a slightly bias point of view here being poz but I think this was a product of a poor support system. It seems to vary in different hospitals the one i'm at now is excellent but the hospital I diagnosed in was an absolute disgrace it still remains the only place i've ever come across any HIV related stigma.

I meant to include a link to this thread... but forgot. Could one of you? I really need to get to bed...

And as I tried to post I was informed of this post:

Quote

I think this was a product of a poor support system. It seems to vary in different hospitals the one i'm at now is excellent but the hospital I diagnosed in was an absolute disgrace it still remains the only place i've ever come across any HIV related stigma.

Yes, that is the point of the second section of my rant. Some places really let us down where support and information come into it. As long as that is allowed to happen we will be seeing more of these cases.

"...health will finally be seen not as a blessing to be wished for, but as a human right to be fought for." Kofi Annan

Nymphomaniac: a woman as obsessed with sex as an average man. Mignon McLaughlin

HIV is certainly character-building. It's made me see all of the shallow things we cling to, like ego and vanity. Of course, I'd rather have a few more T-cells and a little less character. Randy Shilts

See I have one of those backwards point of views I have to admit. I mean me thinking that I am the one that needs to be responsible is ludicrous..

I hope I am not giving the impression that I am cavalier or anything....

Yes, of course, Thomas. We all know I am the last person on earth to advocate personal responsibility.

In a consensual sex act, there is no "one" who needs to be responsible. its THAT thinking that spreads HIV. It is THAT thinking that stops people from getting tested. It's THAT thinking that I fight tooth and nail in the "FEARS" forum.

BOTH parties need to be responsible, and frankly, the negative partner (or the one who knows s/he is negative) has as much to lose as the positive one, just in a different way.

Except in cases of rape, child molestation, or mental disability, giving either partner a "pass" on adulthood is precisely why STDs, including HIV, get spread.

And the media LOVES to make a villian out of one party, a hero out of the other. I submit that such oversimplification is yet another disservice, yet another way to avoid any real discussion or education.

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"Many people, especially in the gay community, turn to oral sex as a safer alternative in the age of AIDS. And with HIV rates rising, people need to remember that oral sex is safer sex. It's a reasonable alternative."

While everyone's feathers are in a ruffle, this -- to me -- seems like a no-brainer and the perfect argument FOR disclosure.

Simple rule: If you are HIV+ and choose to have sex with ANYONE, you MUST disclose your status IF you are going to engage in any risky activity. YES, condoms should always be used! But we are human and that doesn't ALWAYS happen, does it? So let your partner(s) know!! Give them the CHOICE to play or split. What is the big deal? And are any of you REALLY going to tell me that if YOU were NEGATIVE, you wouldn't EXPECT having this information?? Give me a break!

It's about respect, for ourselves and our partners. And until the entire world and all of its leaders and populations are "comfy" with it all, those of us blamed for being immoral in the first place should be stepping up to the plate, acting like mature, respectful adults, and not pissing and moaning when someone gets "caught" fucking someone over -- literally and figuratively!! Grow up! Fuck your brains out, but have the decency to let a partner make up his/her mind whether or not to fuck you! Ignorance is bliss, folks! We've all been there. We know that sometimes, some people aren't terribly concerned with protecting themselves. Does that make it right to keep our mouths shut? Does it mean we are not responsible? Accountable? Spare me!

Being proactive and helping to change how this virus is spread IS our responsibility!! Period. WE'RE THE ONES LIVING WITH IT!! Sucks! But that's how it is. So how many more "neggies" have to become infected just so we can fuck our brains out without bothering to worry about them? When do we get sick of being blamed?

While everyone's feathers are in a ruffle, this -- to me -- seems like a no-brainer and the perfect argument FOR disclosure.

Simple rule: If you are HIV+ and choose to have sex with ANYONE, you MUST disclose your status IF you are going to engage in any risky activity. YES, condoms should always be used! But we are human and that doesn't ALWAYS happen, does it? So let your partner(s) know!! Give them the CHOICE to play or split. What is the big deal? And are any of you REALLY going to tell me that if YOU were NEGATIVE, you wouldn't EXPECT having this information?? Give me a break!

It's about respect, for ourselves and our partners. And until the entire world and all of its leaders and populations are "comfy" with it all, those of us blamed for being immoral in the first place should be stepping up to the plate, acting like mature, respectful adults, and not pissing and moaning when someone gets "caught" fucking someone over -- literally and figuratively!! Grow up! Fuck your brains out, but have the decency to let a partner make up his/her mind whether or not to fuck you! Ignorance is bliss, folks! We've all been there. We know that sometimes, some people aren't terribly concerned with protecting themselves. Does that make it right to keep our mouths shut? Does it mean we are not responsible? Accountable? Spare me!

Being proactive and helping to change how this virus is spread IS our responsibility!! Period. WE'RE THE ONES LIVING WITH IT!! Sucks! But that's how it is. So how many more "neggies" have to become infected just so we can fuck our brains out without bothering to worry about them? When do we get sick of being blamed?

Sorry kids... THE BUCK STOPS WITH US!!!

The problem of course, is that things are never as straight forward as prescriptive responses such as Chuck's would have us believe. As Jonathan and others have pointed out, this attitude negates the responibilities that our sexual partners have to themselves.

The buck stops with each of us, positive or negative. Irrespective of draconian and unenforceable disclosure provisions, HIV negative people will be fine if they insist on using condoms whether they know their partners HIV status or not.

MtD(Who is tired of being told he is responsible for the lives of neggies)

I don't know that statistics...hell, I don't even know if there are statistics...but I would guess that most cases of transmission are between people who have never tested, and aren't aware that they are HIV-positive.

(even if this is not the case, it is still the case for many...and doesn't that mean that each and every individual needs to be responsible for their own bodies and their own health--regardless of their status?)

If everyone with HIV quit having sex right now, and forever, the pandemic would rage on. Unfortunately, HIV doesn't stop with those of us with the virus. For the most part, it's not those identified as positive that are the problem, it's those who are infected and don't know it. Ignorance may be bliss, but it is killing people.

This news got me thinking. I had recently had protected sex with a guy without disclosing my status....what would happen if he for some unfortunate reason got the virus...even though chances are very small. Would I in this case even though I have taken all the measures to make intercourse safe still be responsible for recklessly infected this guy. I have to stress that I have used condom and I havnt cummed in his mouth, but this attitude heard in news worries me a bit.

As far as UK law goes, National AIDS Trust (NAT) has a policy paper on this that's frequently (these days) updated. It says (for HIV-positive people seeking info):

" NAT's understanding of the current state of the law is:

You are only likely to be prosecuted for HIV transmission if:

your sexual partner does not know you have HIVand you don't tell themand you don't always use a condom for penetrative sexand they become infected as a direct resultand they decide to make a complaint to the police.

If you use a condom and the condom slips or breaks, and you have not previously disclosed your status, you should tell your partner your HIV status at once and advise them to get PEP (post-exposure prophylaxis) immediately in order to prevent possible transmission.

Some are arguing from certain court judgements that HIV positive people are effectively required by the law to disclose their status to all sexual partners, whether or not they have safer sex. We do not think there is a realistic likelihood of the CPS taking forward a case where the defendant has clearly tried to avoid risk by using condoms consistently. "

Friend and former colleague of mine (positive) sent me a text message this morning:"Do you think there will be palm trees on our (leper colony) island?"

this makes me so sad, and angry in a way that I do not often feel. In the post office earlier, I overheard two women, looking at front page of inflammatory, reactionary Sun newspaper article...something along the lines of "at least the bitch got what she deserved...they ought to put 'em all away, the lot of them..."

it frustrates me that in one breath, our government/society says "this is a manageable disease, it's just like diabetes"(and hence, prevention messages/campaigns aren't all that important) and in the next, goes about locking people up for giving someone a "death sentence".

if there was a head shaking emoticon on here, i'd be using it about now.

You are absolutely spot on when you say:it frustrates me that in one breath, our government/society says "this is a manageable disease, it's just like diabetes"(and hence, prevention messages/campaigns aren't all that important) and in the next, goes about locking people up for giving someone a "death sentence".

it frustrates me that in one breath, our government/society says "this is a manageable disease, it's just like diabetes"(and hence, prevention messages/campaigns aren't all that important) and in the next, goes about locking people up for giving someone a "death sentence".

Thank you for your concise thoughts on this. I was too angry yesterday and not exactly posting coherently, but this is also part of what I was getting at last night. I've seen too many positive people brushed off when it comes to prevention messages as well - it's not just the mainstream public that isn't being educated. The mental health aspect is swept under the carpet too because after all, it's a "manageable disease".

So why don't we all just pull our socks up and become abstinent so the neggies can get on with their barebacking with impunity? Because that's the message they're sending out. Better yet... does that leper colony have palm trees?

Oh, and another aspect of all this that bugs the shit out of me... all of the UK prosecutions have involved heterosexual couples. (At least the highly publicised ones) What I want to know is, is this because gay men are accepting the responsibility for their own health/infection and not looking to press charges, or is it because cases that come up between gay men never see the light of a courtroom... because "they deserved" it? I have the sinking feeling it's the latter, and I can't tell you how much that pisses me off.

And no, it's not that I want to see prosecutions between men. It's because I'm mystified why there haven't been any. It's just too weird.

And just for the record... there are palm trees on the Rock.

(still pissed off and about to go up to the shops in town. If I overhear a similar conversation to the one Kate overheard... god help them.)

"...health will finally be seen not as a blessing to be wished for, but as a human right to be fought for." Kofi Annan

Nymphomaniac: a woman as obsessed with sex as an average man. Mignon McLaughlin

HIV is certainly character-building. It's made me see all of the shallow things we cling to, like ego and vanity. Of course, I'd rather have a few more T-cells and a little less character. Randy Shilts

it frustrates me that in one breath, our government/society says "this is a manageable disease, it's just like diabetes"(and hence, prevention messages/campaigns aren't all that important) and in the next, goes about locking people up for giving someone a "death sentence".

I am quoting Kate again, only in purple (my favorite color) -- I think it bears repeating again. Right on Kate and thanks for saying this. And yes, I'm shaking my head now too.

Ann, I hope you don't mind, but I'm going to post of a link from Lamda Legal regarding HIV transmission and criminalization statutes of same here in the U.S, and each State is different... I think you'll find it interesting. I haven't read through it all, but intend to do so... quickly perusing it, some states are quite tough, and I don't agree with it at all.

What frightens me here is the number of people who are thrilled to sacrifice their security and liberty to support these laws. So long as HIv carries the stigma it does, it only takes an accusation of non-disclosure to ruin someone's life. That's apparently a sacrifice some are willing to make.

Look at the laws in the USA. In many states, it does not matter whether or not you wear a condom. If you fail to disclose, you are as "guilty" of assault as if you had unprotected sex.

As far as the gender/sexual orientation thing, I have seen these laws primarily applied to straight and gay men here in the USA, with a few notable (newsworthy) exceptions. And while I agree that morally, disclosure (and condom useage) is the responsible thing to do, I also tjink that the negative partner in a consensual, adult relationship either takes responsibility for his/her body, or they don't. And if they don't, then they take the risk of an STD, including HIV. It's that simple.

All these laws do is undermine condom use and devaluate HIV education. HIV negative people are not "innocents" that must be protected fom us. They are adults, who make and must live by adult decisions regarding the fluids which pass into and out of their bodies.

Personal responsibility must be applied to both parties, or it defeats the purpose of HIV education entirely. I am saddened that members of the HIV community buy into their own stigma, the reputation as predator, as evil.

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"Many people, especially in the gay community, turn to oral sex as a safer alternative in the age of AIDS. And with HIV rates rising, people need to remember that oral sex is safer sex. It's a reasonable alternative."

What frightens me here is the number of people who are thrilled to sacrifice their security and liberty to support these laws. So long as HIv carries the stigma it does, it only takes an accusation of non-disclosure to ruin someone's life. That's apparently a sacrifice some are willing to make.

Look at the laws in the USA. In many states, it does not matter whether or not you wear a condom. If you fail to disclose, you are as "guilty" of assault as if you had unprotected sex. ...

...Personal responsibility must be applied to both parties, or it defeats the purpose of HIV education entirely. I am saddened that members of the HIV community buy into their own stigma, the reputation as predator, as evil.

I agree Jonathan, especially with your last paragraph. HIV-pos people who do buy into their own stigma helps fuel the stigma thereby keeping it alive. Very sad...

And the failing to disclose part whether or not a condom is used.. holy fucking crap...this is fucking scary.

« Last Edit: June 20, 2006, 11:53:00 AM by Trish »

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"People grow through experience if they meet life honestly and courageously. This is how character is buit." Eleanor Roosevelt

Here in GA, if I were to perform oral sex on a person without disclosing, I would be breaking the law (a felony) and would be kicked out of my section 8 housing (a felony conviction will do that) as well as disqualified for most of my programs.

For a sexual act which DOES NOT transmit HIV.

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"Many people, especially in the gay community, turn to oral sex as a safer alternative in the age of AIDS. And with HIV rates rising, people need to remember that oral sex is safer sex. It's a reasonable alternative."

Some of those States' laws are crazy. How about Michigan, where you are guilty of a felony if penetration with an object occurs... an HIV+ dildo maybe? Mississippi sounds like they're about ready to send us off to that island or just maybe lock us all up. I'm glad to see NC doesn't have anything listed, which is surprising since we were cursed with Jessie Helms for years! In Oklahoma, we can't get married, as we have to have a 'Dr's note' saying we're cured! It seems like these laws were written back in the early 80's. I wonder if any cases involving HIV have gone before the Supreme Court.

It has been my experience that those who support these laws seem generally ignorant of them. Maybe the link that Trish included will provide some necessary education.

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"Many people, especially in the gay community, turn to oral sex as a safer alternative in the age of AIDS. And with HIV rates rising, people need to remember that oral sex is safer sex. It's a reasonable alternative."

controversial viewpoint, i know, but i just reckon that if you's big enough to be having sex, you's big enough to protect yourself...it's not rocket science, just latex. Don't know about everyone else, but this made me feel really wierd today - marginalised, isolated almost...haven't felt like that in a while, and i didn't like it one bit.

and thank you ann, matty and trish...blue and purple are two of my favourite colours. I think they always add gravity to the written word.

I know it's been said before, but I think most HIV+ people don't want to infect anybody else. I really don't understand why there is no effort being made to make people responsible for their own health and safety. Why does what Kate says "...but i just reckon that if you's big enough to be having sex, you's big enough to protect yourself...it's not rocket science..." seem like such common sense to us but obviously not enough to the general public (HIV-)? I've been recently diagnosed HIV+, but don't remember hearing much about condoms in years. Most people I've had contact with don't use them regularly, and these are not some low-life, slutty people. If you ask most people, straight or gay, what's safe and what's not, most don't really know. Hell, I didn't really know; that's why I'm here now. If education can help prevent HIV transmission, and I believe it can, we need to concentrate on that. Actually, why do we need to to anything at all; we've already become infected. Those who are negative need to concentrate on that, but that would mean accepting responsibility.

On one hand we're just unfortunate to have a disease, but on the other hand we're monsters that shouldn't have sex or live like normal humans. People smoke knowing the consequences, but if one has sex, the responsibility for one's safety is the one who may disclose if they're poz if they happen to know their status. It's really disheartening to see folks with a health issue demonized when, as we all know, it's easy for HIV- people to remain HIV-.

I was talking to a couple of the staff at my clinic today and it seems like they are making sure all HIV positive people know about PEP, so that they can immediately inform the person they were having sex with if the condom broke or something. Obviously a response to these events that essentially place the burden on the person with HIV. I got the impression they were concerned about the way the law was heading and this was a measure to ensure that positive people had a 'get out' if they didn't inform of their status and then an accident happened.

I'm doing my best to argue the case (as Veryjammy in that forum) but I feel like I'm losing the battle. I especially didn't like the way someone equated Hiv people who pass the disease on to murderers, muggers and rapists. I fear this is the way a lot of the general public will see it.

Very interesting topic, but it's exploded and you are really discussing many issues at once. But I do see one issue that is not being adressed and that is how each of us is responsible for those we elect to govern in our stead. We abhor these foolish laws, ineffective prevention messages, treatment, etc., etc., etc., and yet the bozos who legislate this crap just stay in office.

It's about time that all poz people became informed about the universe in which the world has decided we must live. It's apparent that nobody is going to care what happens to us, but us.

For you younger members, it's about time you took to the streets to get what we need and to get these draconian laws off the books.

I have absolutely no regard whatsoever for my HIV infected brothers and sisters who choose to remain politically neutral. They are killing themselves, and are certainly doing me no favors. The least we can do is stay informed, and vote.

I agree, Joe.

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"Many people, especially in the gay community, turn to oral sex as a safer alternative in the age of AIDS. And with HIV rates rising, people need to remember that oral sex is safer sex. It's a reasonable alternative."