Oh so true, Jim! If an individual's position is that there is no God or He doesn't speak to man, then hearing His voice will be difficult if our ears and hearts are closed. I truly believe that to be the case.

1. You can believe in your innermost being(heart) that God raised Jesus from the dead.

2. You can confess with your mouth that Jesus is your Lord (and mean it).

It is not as easy to grow spiritually once saved.

This is actually the point of my question. I suppose it depends on believing when salvation happens. If it happens at the point of "conversion" (in most peoples estimation that would be saying the sinners prayer) then I suppose yes it is easy to be saved.

I tend to lean more towards salvation as not being received in this life. Thus if we stumble/fall away there is no salvation and in this case salvation is not easy. Sure, believing in Jesus seems easy enough, but that is not always the case. Trials of faith can be very arduous and taxing.

All glory to him who loves us and has freed us from our sins by shedding his blood for us. He has made us a Kingdom of priests for God his Father. All glory and power to him forever and ever! Amen.

Quote from: Bryan on March 01, 2019, 08:54:44 amThis is actually the point of my question. I suppose it depends on believing when salvation happens. If it happens at the point of "conversion" (in most peoples estimation that would be saying the sinners prayer) then I suppose yes it is easy to be saved.

I tend to lean more towards salvation as not being received in this life. Thus if we stumble/fall away there is no salvation and in this case salvation is not easy. Sure, believing in Jesus seems easy enough, but that is not always the case. Trials of faith can be very arduous and taxing.

If you are correct then God lied because scripture says;

Rom 10:9-119 That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.10 For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.11 For the scripture saith, Whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed.KJV

Rom 10:9-119 That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.10 For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.11 For the scripture saith, Whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed.KJV

Sure but if a person believes in a moment and is saved, do they then have the right to stop believing but retain salvation?

All glory to him who loves us and has freed us from our sins by shedding his blood for us. He has made us a Kingdom of priests for God his Father. All glory and power to him forever and ever! Amen.

Good points all. My initial thoughts agree with you Bryan. The Western church makes the wrapping all too easy. "Say this prayer and you will go to Heaven." I've actually heard that told to little children, as if the prayer itself is salvation. Too often salvation gets presented as "fire insurance," but is that true salvation. Jesus told Jews to eat His flesh and drink His blood, which would have been sacrilege to them, even figuratively. And we have the parable of the sheep and the goats. But then the Bible does say to believe and speak out and you will be saved. I know what showed me my need for something more was the verse about being a new creation. If we are the same after we "get saved" as we were before then I don't think we are saved. We have to consider all that the Bible says about salvation, and it presents it as both easy and difficult, and sometimes even impossible. I think that once we understand in our hearts what salvation really is that confessing it with our mouths is not so easy as it sounds. I could not confess salvation until I was willing for it to change me.

This too is a problem I have with reformed theology and cessationism. They've eliminated the Holy Spirit so all they have are marketing concepts, and they have reduced salvation to something they can count. And they have so much fun counting too, usually the same guilt-ridden people every week, and they count them every time, and then hold that number up as a trophy at the pastors' brunches. I don't understand what business church was being all about "salvations" anyway. Church should be for the equipping of the body, so that the body can go out and make disciples, not drag a bunch of sinners into the church so that the body is never discipled. That's my view of it anyway.

I used to worry and stress and strive to "do my part," never believing that I had done enough of "my part." Now I see my part as casting it off on Him, doing what I believe He is giving me, and letting it just be His problem. I don't have to fix everything, but I get to work along side of God.

I used to worry and stress and strive to "do my part," never believing that I had done enough of "my part." Now I see my part as casting it off on Him, doing what I believe He is giving me, and letting it just be His problem. I don't have to fix everything, but I get to work along side of God.

Jesus also said if someone did not abide they would be cast off into the fire.

So clearly theres more to it.

Dont get me wrong, I agree starting a relationship with Jesus is rather easy. Just believe. But just initiating that relationship, doesnt guarantee anything. Each believer is told to then abide and be fruitful. Several passages state the dangers of unfruitfulness (is that a word?)

Judas walked with Jesus yet he fell off.

All glory to him who loves us and has freed us from our sins by shedding his blood for us. He has made us a Kingdom of priests for God his Father. All glory and power to him forever and ever! Amen.

Quote from: jiminpa on March 01, 2019, 11:03:58 pmGood points all. My initial thoughts agree with you Bryan. The Western church makes the wrapping all too easy. "Say this prayer and you will go to Heaven." I've actually heard that told to little children, as if the prayer itself is salvation. Too often salvation gets presented as "fire insurance," but is that true salvation. Jesus told Jews to eat His flesh and drink His blood, which would have been sacrilege to them, even figuratively. And we have the parable of the sheep and the goats. But then the Bible does say to believe and speak out and you will be saved. I know what showed me my need for something more was the verse about being a new creation. If we are the same after we "get saved" as we were before then I don't think we are saved. We have to consider all that the Bible says about salvation, and it presents it as both easy and difficult, and sometimes even impossible. I think that once we understand in our hearts what salvation really is that confessing it with our mouths is not so easy as it sounds. I could not confess salvation until I was willing for it to change me.

This too is a problem I have with reformed theology and cessationism. They've eliminated the Holy Spirit so all they have are marketing concepts, and they have reduced salvation to something they can count. And they have so much fun counting too, usually the same guilt-ridden people every week, and they count them every time, and then hold that number up as a trophy at the pastors' brunches. I don't understand what business church was being all about "salvations" anyway. Church should be for the equipping of the body, so that the body can go out and make disciples, not drag a bunch of sinners into the church so that the body is never discipled. That's my view of it anyway.

It does all seem a bit capitalistic to me. Like bullet points on an eternal resume.

"Look Jesus I led 1,345 souls to heaven."

All glory to him who loves us and has freed us from our sins by shedding his blood for us. He has made us a Kingdom of priests for God his Father. All glory and power to him forever and ever! Amen.

Jesus also said if someone did not abide they would be cast off into the fire.

So clearly theres more to it.

Dont get me wrong, I agree starting a relationship with Jesus is rather easy. Just believe. But just initiating that relationship, doesnt guarantee anything. Each believer is told to then abide and be fruitful. Several passages state the dangers of unfruitfulness (is that a word?)

Judas walked with Jesus yet he fell off.

I did answer, there are no if's, in those scriptures. If one does what it says from there innermost being they are save or God lied.

A plant that doesnt grow, dies. Pretty cut and dry. If a plant isnt growing its because it is dying or has died already.

So if we die spiritually because we arent growing (Jesus did liken believers to branches on a vine) do we still receive salvation?

IOW, do spiritually dead Christians still get to enjoy eternal life?

A person who did what the scripture said, they believed in their innermost being that God raised Jesus from the dead and confessed with their mouth that Jesus was their Lord and meant it. That person is saved....

However, at that point many different things enter into the equation. This is an equation that only The Holy Spirit is capable of keeping up with.

Just as we would not kick our baby, child, son out of the family if they threw up all over ever thing, threw food on the floor, said things without thinking or not realizing what they are saying. Do we believe that our Heaven Father would?

The Bible refers to Babes in Christ. We all have to grow spiritually and many do not. Their are 10's of thousands perhaps 100's of thousands sitting in churches all over the world at this very minute, 50 years old, 60 years old and are still throwing up, still throwing fits, haven't grown, if any, very little. These are still saved.

Some have and will throw tantrums and say they don't believe anymore, babies and children do that. They go to heaven when they die.

Even the ones we consider to be so spiritual in reality are not all that far ahead of "the babies".

As far as spiritual death I would want to know your definition of "spiritual death" before commenting in that.

No mention of repentance?Repentance is important. Repentance means "a change of direction".

When a person prays the prayer of salvation and means it, not just parroting words for whatever reason.This initiates a change in their spirit which is recreated, they become a new creation. They repent of sin, are forgiven and are "born again/from above".

Now that we are born again we are instructed by scripture that it is up to us to put the desires of the flesh down. Rom 12:1 says "I beseech you therefore, brethren, by the mercies of God, that ye present your bodies a living sacrifice, holy, acceptable unto God, which is your reasonable service." KJV

Rom 12:3 tells us "And be not conformed to this world: but be ye transformed by the renewing of your mind, that ye may prove what is that good, and acceptable, and perfect, will of God". KJV

The reason scripture tells us that is because the spirit was born again. The body was not born again. The mind(part of the soul) was not born again.

God took care of the part that we could not do anything about for us. Then He tells us to put down the flesh and renew the mind.

If we do not do that then we will not cannot advance or grow spiritually and we remain babies, jerked around by every thing that is in opposition to what the word says. Our feelings, emotions, reasoning(which having not been renewed and is the thinking of the world), etc.

The broad and narrow road?

The narrow road is Jesus, the broad road is any other way. Jesus said no man comes to the Father except through me.

Or "only a few will be saved?

Only a few are saved. Out of the billions of people who have lived and are living at this moment are saved. Why? Because only a few (percentage wise) will receive Jesus and be saved. Most don't because they choose not to believe.

Or "He who endures to the end will be saved"?

Remember that when Jesus said this we was speaking of the time of the seven year tribulation.

What I am going to say is a subject that has many different beliefs.

The seven year trib period occurs after what is called in the Bible "a catching away". All of the people on the earth are received by the Lord and meet Him in the air.

This event signals the end of the age of grace in which you and I live. Eph 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: KJV

When Jesus said "He who endures to the end will be saved", He was speaking of the time in which "Grace" was ended. A person could no longer be saved by grace through faith, therefore a believer had to remain steadfast in enduring and continuing to believe until the end. What was the end? The end would be the end of the 7 year period of their death, many will be killed for their belief in that time.