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Monday, June 20, 2011

I think this press release from Austal gives us some hints on what the problem is with LCS-2. Read it all - but this is the question I have for you.

An integral part of any post-delivery support program for a high-performance, high-speed vessel such as the Independence-variant LCS is to provide a cadre of qualified maintainers who can help our Navy partners to deploy temporary sacrificial anodes every time the vessel is moored, and ensure that high-voltage maintenance equipment is properly grounded before use aboard ship. These are services that Austal’s skilled aluminum specialists, operating from six maintenance hubs in the Asia-Pacific, North America, South America, Europe and the Middle East, offer Austal customers every day.

Are they thinking about having Austal contractors at every port LCS-2 Class will pull in to, or are they just going to train Sailors to do it? Hopefully it is the latter and not the former. ... and this isn't being done now why?

What a china doll. Sad; I always liked the LCS-2 design over LCS-1 like I enjoy a bee sting over a kick in the groin - but if you need to give it a deep tissue massage and olive oil enema every time it enters port - ungh.

Great job security for the builder/contractor. And an easy out when the POS self destructs sitting at the pier (or worse, on a rare underway day). Ship's force failed to do some minute step in the electrolysis prevention manual so it voids the warantee.

Let's make a reef out of this while it will still float long enough to get to the SINKEX site!

And, never build another, and cancel any already started.

And declare everyone involved in this sorry saga of pi$$-poor procurement to be fired and banned from further Navy work- forever!

This old shipfitter thinks this is a 3,000 ton pile of the brown smelly. That's incredibly bad design. ANY ship that sails in salt water has to have an electro-magnetic analysis. That tells you where to put zinc anodes and how many to install. Zincs on an FFG can last years and years, sometimes over 10 years in the ballast tanks. The ones on the outside of the hull get the worst of it, and they get changed every 3 years or whenever she's in drydock. Checking grounds on electrical equipment? Please, that's just stupid, this again is something that should have been known before, repeat, before building this monstrosity.

Either that, or Austal is lying out of it's ass. I'm inclined to think the later. Grandpa, what do you think?

A couple of weeks ago, NAVY TIMES had a long article about how both LCS1 and 2 would be operating for years out of Singapore, with crews flying back and forth. If I can find then link will be provided.

Yes, yes, yes, a team to come aboard and take care of corrosion. Gee, that sounds familiar, kind of like the teams that were supposed to come aboard the Burkes and work fastener corrosion issues on the superstructure whenever the ships pulled back into port. Let's see, did that happen? Ummmmmm, no, it did not.

A tiger team of contractors to WHAT? Put just the right amount of just the right sized zincs in just the right place so the screw and shroud assembly don't turn into pie crust and fall off the back? ICFBI. YGTBFSM. Not to mention make sure the power leads are hooked up correctly and the grounding straps bolt are torqued up tight for the portable tools power supply?

The fact that this travel and per diem boondoogle rolling through the life cycle of the ship and across the World Port Index didn't get laughed out of the flag brief, or more likely the PM quarterly conference, is a standup Gilbert and Sullivan disgrace.

What a money sink.

This may be fine for Austal's bread and butter, fast small ferries, which go from Port Tedium to Boredom Harbor and sometimes make a side trip to Gigalapolis Roads Inner Harbor, with the traveling zinc placement, bonding and grounding roadshow going to the Lowbid, Lion, and Cheatam Yard in Gigalapolis and staying at the Marriot once a year or five.

But for the same reason that the damn thing needs accurate corrected charts for the entire world for the entire world (via the satellite/internet and they bet your life the provider did it right and is keeping the master file current), vice the ferries' twelve charts specific to the route; A WARSHIP never knows in WARTIME where it going next until the message comes in, and the logisticians then get to push to support where it is. Not to mention we improve all warships all the time as time and funds permit. Which means they get modified in unpredictable ways - a lot. What about Battle Damage?(Well, mostly they won't survive it, but nobody bats a thousand, not even the Red Chinese Ten Feet Tall Navy.)

Ever hear of something called a logistically immature theatre of operations? Hmmm? Does anybody ever look at an Atlas and think?

Violates the KISS principle. Not to mention the little peek behind the curtain about the "easy quick change modules" concept (shudder).

Where to we get the staff guys and Project Managers that keep picking up bare fishhooks off the conference table and deftly stabbing them into their jaws?

(note the little red diesel stalagtites where the pinhole leaks are under the tank...galvanic isolator installation happened the first week I owned her...replacing the tank -finally-right after the 4th, come join in the fun if you want...the powder coat on the Edson pedestal is eaten up too with the help of a chafed compass light wire...But its a 1984 vintage plastic boat...<span>NOT</span> a purported new WAR(?)ship)

How this program is still operational is beyond me. NO ONE can say without lying out there ass that this ship is in anyways shape or form what we want or that it can perform its mission. For go sakes they have said so the refuse to do anything about testing it.

2011-US navy we once controled the worlds oceans.

2020-US Navy we once controled the worlds oceans.......now we cant control our coast. But hey we have jet fighter warships............True they are in dock and cant manage a patrol and yea we have canceled most of our other ships BUT.

"According to company records, galvanic corrosion has not been a factor on any Austal built and fully maintained vessel, and our technical experts are eager to support any request to identify root causes of any corrosion issue in any aluminum naval vessel in service today. The Westpac Express, an Austal-built and fully maintained high-speed catamaran, has shuttled U.S. Marines throughout the Pacific Basin continuously for ten years, with a 99.7% availability over that period."

Perhaps some are barking up the wrong tree here? WPE has a crew of about 15 mariners. WPE has been operating frequently for years now. No reports of signifcant accidents or downtime. WPE like many HS ferries have specialist maintainers at its home port of Naha. That is just the commercial way.

So is the real problem the cut down Navy crew AND the lack of maintainers? I dunno for sure, but what I have been critical of from the beginning of LCS is the sloppy logisitcal planning for these ships. The Navy admits that HSVs are new to them but doesn't learn from the HS industry?

The other fact is that WPE and most HSV are operated IAW the IMO High Speed Craft Code which mandates regular M&R, inspections and tests. Has the USN NOT adopted the holistic methodoly of the HSC? Remember the fiasco that PMS is. Is there just plain not enough qualified operators and maintainers? That is NOT the ship's fault its the Navy's.

Because Austal shouldn't have to be there or in the future replacing zincs. That's a PMS thing way down the road for a brand new ship. This brand new ship already has a problem with conductive corrosion and this is a very, very bad thing. Suppose something breaks when the ship is far away from land. Suppose it's a bilge pump that shorts out, and a main space begins to fill with salt water.

This brand new ship is already rotting away, years before this should even start showing up on the maintainence screen.

The point is that Austal screwed up. And the fact that sailors are in no way as skilled as they were 20 years ago has nothing to do with this discussion. The people I work with that are retired Navy from years ago have an even lower opinion than I do about the skill level of sailors today. In particular was our rigging foreman who had to have one of his guys splice three part lifeline for the bos'n mates because no one on board, not even the BMC knew how to do it. That's basic seamanship. And they couldn't do it, not even the damn chief.

James,the program was never operational to begin with. They called a shakedown cruise a "deployment," yet are not going to run the ships through COTF. So, in essence, you never actually achieve IOC for the ships, so you never have to really report out what the true Ao (operational availability) of the ships is.

It gets better, Commander. In the CG(X) AoA, we were directed by Navy Leadership to hire LaFleur (and his Booz team) to perform "RED TEAM" analysis of our AoA. They were so "effective" in their recommendations on how to make it better that we ended up getting cancelled by Gates.

"AUSTAL CEO, Andrew Belamy, told the Sydney Morning-Herald that any corrosion on USS Independence was the fault of whoever is operating and maintaining it".

"We have built 230 vessels of this type that have not suffered from this type of problem... where the operator and the maintainer of the ship have followed the procedures in a thorough way,"

"I suspect there is a problem in the area of operational maintenance if there is a galvanic corrosion issue" said Mr. Bellamy.

----- later in today's article was this part.

"The problem was discovered in 2010, before the ship was delivered to the Navy, said Jim De-Martini, a spokesman for Maine-based Bath Iron Works. Bath is the prime contractor for the first two littoral combat ships built at Austal... "

this article continues, with a quote from Chris Johnson, who is a Navy spokesman.

" Johnson said that the Navy in 2010 started developing both short- and long-term fixes to the problem. The service will, by the end of July, install 'double-plates' around portions of the Independence propulsion system, which will make it safe to operate in the near future, he said".

"Next year, when the ship is dry-docked, the Navy will install a cathodic protection system as a long-term tix to the corrosion problem, Johnson said".

"Such an anti-corrosion system is going to be added to Coronado before it is launched, Johnson said".

"And Austal included the protection system in its prime contracting bid" for future LCS-6,8,etc.

That punishment is reserved for those who offend politically, ex post facto, for the purposes of pandering to the special interest groups du jour. It is clearly NOT for thos who squander billions in taxpayer money to develop a fragile little maintenance nightmare that any GM2 could see will not survive contact with the enemy, and then call it the "future of the Navy".

For those who perpetrate the latter, it is promotions all around. Followed by retirement and a pocket-lining gig on the other side of the trough.

is there actually a cathodic protection system installed and if not whynot.

are the zincs still on the bottom of the boat? is there electrical contact between the zincs and the hull? are the zincs cast at the proper temperature (there is a weird crystalization problem that occurs if the foundry that casts them doesn't do it right and they won't work properly)?

<span>What you fail to undersand and accept is that warships are not needed for every mission the Navy performs.

The USN is shedding more and more missions..To its detriment.

Get used to that mantra because it is not going to change regardless of your snarks.STILL doesn't make it the proper course of action. </span><span> How many wars etc have occured in that time period? </span><span></span><span>At sea? For the USN? </span><span></span><span>NONE</span><span></span><span>And thats your failing lee. you can't see past your post-WWII Cold War view of the seas being a benign USN bastion.</span><span></span><span>Its a real mistake to believe that will continue.</span><span></span>

How long did the Atlantic Conveyor last, and what effect did losing every army and marine helo in the task force have on the campaign?.Ask the widows of the officers and men who were forced to fight like it was the Boer War, on foot and through defenses they should have cut off with vertical envelopment. It worked, but it shouldn't have been needed.

Even merchant ships need gun crews. Naval Armed Guards.

What YOU don't understand is that I have sailed as a Naval Officer on warships, and as a Merchant Marine Officer on Naval auxiliaries.

What you also don't understand is Maritime Supremacy for the USN is rotting away and will be gone gone gone in the lifetime of the ships we build now.

Every naval auxiliary not manned and armed as a warship is just a helpless target and a greater burden on the escort vessels we won't have, when the next war at sea comes to decide maritime supremacy.

How about a compromise ? For all Fleet Auxiliaries, at least make space and weld in another 24 racks. Nothing fancy. Stacked 3 high, minimal locker space. So that IF some leader decides that just before T-AKE or T-AO goes cruising thru or to or around ___________ <someplace>, then at the last moment, some squared away Admiral can order a dozen or two Gunners Mates to quickly get onboard and ride for a month or so.

And you could also squirrel away 8 or 10 .50cal mounts (always securely locked up) just in case those 18 to 24 gunners mates decided to set them up on deck one night. And think of the benefit for the Shore Based Staff's. They could easily find a T-AKE or T-AO (ships that actually can underway and stay at sea) to put 24 midshipmen onboard for summer training, as long as the Naval Auxilary is not running thru the Strait of Mallaca !

You know the old Boy Scout motto: Be Prepared ! (just in case the age of aquarius doesn't arrive soon, accompanied by peace and understanding.....) Whatever happened to the 5th Dimension ??</someplace>

You have a point. For those who are ruining our Navy, maybe a stern talking-to? Or perhaps a disapporiving glance? Time-out? How about something a little more encouraging? "Thank you for making good choices!" We don't want self-esteem to be a casualty of this war....

Pintle mounted fifties are all very well for the odd pirate or two, but when steaming in convoy one needs an adequately equipped and trained defensive battery to add to the inner ring of defense, at least out to the horizon and effective range of radar laid gunnery. Then there is the wee issue of Damage Control. Merchant crews have one rpt one DC locker and one rpt one primary and backup hose team for firefighting. Their training and drilling and equipping for combatting flooding is even less capable. Their standards are quite exceptable for peacetime, but submarginal for a real war z

Compare the loss of Atlantic Conveyor with that of USS Pecos, the oiler fleeing south of what is now Indonesia enroute to Australia in early 1942. Pecos fought hard, and long, soaked up a lot of damage, and died hard, steaming alone. Escorted, Atlantic Conveyor burned and sank. In the same situation, Pecos had a fighting chance.

The oceans, very very soon, will be up for grabs re maritime supremacy. Pax Oceana Americana is moribund, due to the decline of the USN.

Civilian manned minesweepers were ineffective in clearing the way for the Brit Med Fleet to bombard Istanbul and force the Ottoman Empire out of the first world war. Result - Gallipolli.

Now what would the world be like if Churchill had been Prime Minister during the 1930?

Atlantic Converyor is a red herring issue. it was a STUFT - Ship Taken up From Trade. The urgrency of the operation caused a major error in decision making which was catastrophic for AC and crew.

USN sealift ships are operated and loaded differently. When in last 50 years has a USNS ship been lost at sea? There have been a couple of large ship explosions while loading ammo/explosives in CONUS ports. And certainly a few close calls on chartered ships..but.

Grandpa, I agree with you 100% that all naval auxiliaries and sealift ships as well as MSC chartered merchants must have Naval Armed Guards onboard. I have been saying that for TWO years now with no interest on the part of the USN.

I have been saying we need Armed Naval Auxiliaries too upgunned like RFA ships. Not takers.

There are NEVER going to be enough USN escorts again, I certainly don't like that situation but just look at the SCN hulls being bought. So we got to live with what we got and improve those ships as best possible. AND go look at both the SCN and NDSF to see how many NFAF ships are being built (too few, too late) and how many sealif ships are NOT being built at all!

BTW check WW2 history - how many naval auxiliaries then crewed by sailors were lost due to enemy action (my ref doc goes to Pacific)? YES that will be the center of significant action in the future. What is the USN doing about the Pacific - a generalization no reply needed

<span>Atlantic Converyor is a red herring issue. it was a STUFT - Ship Taken up From Trade. The urgrency of the operation caused a major error in decision making which was catastrophic for AC and crew. </span><span></span> <span>No its not. It was a catastrophic loss that nearly cost the Brits the campaign. </span><span></span> <span>And here we are a generation later, headed dowm the same wrong headed path.</span><span></span> <span>When in last 50 years has a USNS ship been lost at sea?</span><span></span> <span>Now thats one right smelly stinky red herring lee.</span><span></span> <span>When in the last 50 years has one been seriously attacked at sea?</span><span></span><span></span> <span>Ok. The Card in the Mekong Delta. </span><span></span><span>And it sank at the pier.</span><span></span><span>One has to wonder though if she could've been saved from sinking if she had the contemporaneous USN DC capabilities aboard though.</span><span></span><span>(BTW I used to see the Core right often in Alameda loading up F-5s and A-1s in those days.)</span><span></span><span>BTW check WW2 history - how many naval auxiliaries then crewed by sailors were lost due to enemy action (my ref doc goes to Pacific)?</span><span></span><span>Yes. Lets do lee....</span><span></span><span>Thats the Alchiba burning....</span><span></span><span>It was her regular navy crew -with its full up DC abilities- that kept her afloat and got that cargo off the ship and to the Marines ...And got the ship home.</span><span></span><span>Before you scoff and dismiss that assertion offhand...</span><span></span><span>Read the War Damage Report</span><span></span><span>I have been saying we need Armed Naval Auxiliaries too upgunned like RFA ships. Not takers. </span><span>There were still significant crew complications with the Brit RFA's -and civilians aboard RN ships as well- in the Falklands...</span><span></span><span></span>

STUFT is the accurate term for those ships, go back and read the history.

You're off on all points, read my words carefully.

Card was in a known mined channel not at sea. The Oiler was during WW2. Support your insuations about RFA in Falklands with facts pls. And know that the RFA subsequent to Falklands significantly changed its RFA crewing to include RN sailors as weapons operators. RFA ships have 30mm AA and missiles now also.

Retd Now, the current NFAF ships already have extra bunks for military. They have MILDEPT Military Departments in the crew of varing sizes. NFAF ships already have gun mounts for .50 weapons on them. The JHSV has four ROSAM mounts in its design. What is missing are THE weapons and sensors which the blue water navy refuses to put onboard civilian crewed ships.

And before Sid jumps in here, the CIVMARs crrews want! better protection by competent sailors.

I say again Re-establish the Naval Armed Guards under COMSC - he is the type commander - lawyers be damned!

The gunners mate school at Great Lakes is a green field and the High Bay diesel shop is empty of students. Two score finest kind diesels sit lonely in an cavernous room with no students as do most of the other hands on spaces. I nearly wept after considering what might have been and what the future could hold. Computer learning stations and a quick trip to the fleet are no substitute for hands on learning with seasoned instructors as far as engineering duties are concerned.The flaws (the ignorance of incredibly gross dereliction of attention to basic maritime ship design) shown in the LCS are just another sad sign of how quickly we have forgotten what it takes to operate and maintain a ship at sea.

NO Civilian manned ship could have survived that. Not that Merchant Mariners aren't brave. They clearly are. They aren't organized, equipped, trained, or structurally disciplined to do, and their crews are way, way too small.

Leesea: Your error is the same as the fish's error about air - no experience, no concept, because you are superbly adapted to your environment, to wit, total American world wide maritime supremacy.You, commendably, want to conserve the public purse and advance techniques you know from long experience to work.

That era is (unnecessarily, prematurely, needlessly and irresponsibly) fading fast. The new rivals are rising, fueled by the wealth that the congresses of idiots diverted to them while throwing away out industrial base and the wealth of the nation.

Maritime supremacy will be up for grabs and every ship the Navy has will have to be able to defend itself and add to the defensive weight of the task force.

The (largely ephemeral) economies that offloaded a full naval crew from our auxiliaries and eliminated class after class of auxiliaries were based on a postulate which will no longer apply when the next test comes, as come it must - and will. Next time there will be no rear area or naval dominance. Next time, the war starts at the sea bouy.