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02:20:16 klutometis: I'm hard at work improving my incubot clone.
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02:46:50 offby1: would you teach me to write a _basic_ scheme bot?
02:47:05 lcc: What do you need to know?
02:47:11 lcc: Also, you should read rudybot's source code.
02:47:20 lcc: chicken has an irc extension that might be interesting to you.
02:47:22 cky: where can I fetch his src?
02:47:35 lcc: http://github.com/offby1/rudybot/
02:47:39 cool
02:48:57 qu1j0t3: where is it?
02:49:52 http://wiki.call-cc.org/eggref/4/irc
02:50:01 um yeah
02:50:03 beat me
02:52:39 neat. I'll see if I, with my knowledge base, can make sense of it. then I guess I can ask questions here. I do assume that .rkt is the same as scheme, but does it have any differences?
02:55:17 lcc: .rkt files usually use Racket-specific extensions. :-)
02:59:13 ok
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03:04:50 sarahbot, ping?
03:04:59 *gnomon* sighs
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03:06:36 Hi, gnomon!
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08:17:47 Has anybody ever drawn the environment structure of Y-combinator described in http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fixed-point_combinator ?
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09:50:44 I am trying to write a function which prints out a series of values from the function (1 - x^2) .. I can write a function that puts out the y values but trying to put out both I have this http://pastebin.com/C4RkQYXT .. any hints appreciated
09:53:51 madmuppet006, huh
09:53:59 That is kinf of convoluted to do that.
09:54:06 madmuppet006, is this homework?
09:55:39 not homework trying to learn scheme ..
09:56:48 trying to follow issacs newtons footsteps with modern technology ..
09:57:33 madmuppet006, ahhh
09:57:34 Ehhh
09:58:01 I thought that using scheme would be easier than trying to use a c language
09:58:12 It is
09:59:26 rudybot (define (display-each f . xs) (apply for-each (compose display f) xs))
09:59:28 I beleive it is
09:59:34 rudybot, (define (display-each f . xs) (apply for-each (compose display f) xs))
09:59:34 Lajla: your sandbox is ready
09:59:34 Lajla: Done.
09:59:38 Well, like that
10:00:09 rudybot, (define (f x) (- 1 (* x x)))
10:00:09 Lajla: Done.
10:00:26 rudybot (display-each f '(0 1 2 3 4))
10:00:32 rudybot, (display-each f '(0 1 2 3 4))
10:00:32 Lajla: ; stdout: "10-3-8-15"
10:00:43 Ehhh
10:00:55 That's not correct is it?
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10:01:01 no
10:01:48 apart from zero all the x numbers should result in negative numbers for y
10:02:01 ohhh
10:02:07 No, newline
10:02:44 sorry after 1 ..
10:04:17 rudybot, (define (display-line . xs) (apply display xs) (newline))
10:04:17 Lajla: Done.
10:04:31 rudybot, (define (display-each f . xs) (apply for-each (compose display-line f) xs))
10:04:32 Lajla: Done.
10:04:49 rudybot, (display-each f '(0 1 2 3 4)))
10:04:49 Lajla: rudybot (define (display-each f . xs) (apply for-each (compose display f) xs))
10:05:05 rudybot, (display-each f '(0 1 2 3 4))
10:05:05 Lajla: ; stdout: "1\n0\n-3\n-8\n-15\n"
10:05:08 There
10:05:11 That's more like it
10:05:16 madmuppet006, anyway
10:05:19 What I'm getting at
10:05:35 the for-each function is what you want to use to build it
10:05:40 Basically, see it like this
10:05:48 (for-each func list)
10:06:08 applies func to each argument of the list in the order the elements are in the list and returns an 'unspecified value'
10:06:14 So func is expected to be a side effect
10:06:56 My 'display-each' function in this case basically feeds a function to for-each that applies f first, and then applies display-line to the result
10:07:00 Which is the compose thing
10:07:12 I get what your saying .. Im trying to get it to work this end .. thanks for the help I appreciate it
10:07:43 Hmm
10:07:46 let me look at your code then
10:08:18 still working on it ..:p
10:09:36 Ah yeah
10:10:51 Hmm, it should work as far as I see it here
10:11:03 its hould make a list which alternates between the original values and the new ones.
10:14:15 I havent used the apply keyword before so Im looking into it now
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10:21:09 madmuppet006, it's a function actually
10:21:31 (apply f xs) where xs is a list simply calls the function f with the elements of xs as its arguments
10:21:40 so (apply + (list 1 2 3)) would be 6
10:35:57 if I (apply f (car l)) where l is '(1 2 3 4) I get an error saying improper argument list
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10:37:26 I have tried http://pastebin.com/NqBgV75u
10:37:53 -!- tom_i [~thomasing@ingserv.demon.co.uk] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds]
10:37:57 as well
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10:45:59 madmuppet006, you need cdr
10:46:08 second argument of apply needs tob e a list
10:46:16 Well, last, technically
10:46:29 yeah I just noticed .. got it working with a one element list
10:46:58 when I tried (apply f '(car l)) I got an error
10:47:32 when I try (apply f '(number)) it works fine
10:49:20 That's because '(car l) is a list of the symbol car and the symbol l
10:49:27 ' means it's not evaluated
10:49:31 Try (list (car l))
10:49:34 (apply f (car l)) I get an error improper argument list
10:49:51 Unless the first element of l is a list itself, you're not feeding a list to apply in that case
10:51:06 thanks that works got it working on my general function as well
10:51:58 There's no reason to not use (f (car l)) though
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10:53:24 :p that works too
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11:19:22 Lajla: I have a function which displays both the x and y values then prints a newline .. how would I put a gap between the x and y values so they are easy to read?
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11:25:43 display a " "
11:25:51 Or a #\space
11:27:25 http://pastebin.com/kSfK8WnW was how I did it .. any suggestions?
11:27:49 rudybot, (define (display-each-and-arg f . xs) (apply for-each (lambda ys (display ys) (display " -> ") (newline)) xs))
11:27:49 Lajla: Done.
11:28:15 rudybot, (define (square x) (* x x))
11:28:15 Lajla: Done.
11:28:42 rudybot, (display-each-and-arg square '(0 1 2 3 4))
11:28:42 Lajla: ; stdout: "(0) -> \n(1) -> \n(2) -> \n(3) -> \n(4) -> \n"
11:28:58 Ehhh
11:28:59 Oh yeah
11:29:03 Of course
11:29:25 rudybot, (define (display-each-and-arg f . xs) (apply for-each (lambda ys (display ys) (display " -> ") (display (apply f ys)) (newline)) xs))
11:29:25 Lajla: Done.
11:29:29 rudybot, (display-each-and-arg square '(0 1 2 3 4))
11:29:29 Lajla: ; stdout: "(0) -> 0\n(1) -> 1\n(2) -> 4\n(3) -> 9\n(4) -> 16\n"
11:29:32 Eh voilla
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11:29:56 madmuppet006, well, truth be told, I wouldn't have done it like that in the first place since it is extremely convoluted and bad practice
11:30:58 Lajla: fair comment .. Im learing so I have open ears ..
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11:34:26 madmuppet006, http://pastebin.com/y5eMj03F
11:34:42 madmuppet006, well, it's pretty clear you're used to C like languages. =P
11:34:53 That's how short it can be with proper scheme style.
11:36:48 yeah I have .. I love using scheme though but so far I need to work on it
11:37:10 madmuppet006, for-each is basically your C style loop
11:37:21 say you have an array and you want to do something for each element int he array
11:37:26 That's what for-each does
11:37:43 with C you would write some counter function in your for loop but in scheme, lists have sentinals
11:37:53 so you can't really just grow over it, so you have a nice for-each function
11:38:33 cool thanks for the help .. definitely makiing me think .. which is good ..:p
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11:40:45 madmuppet006, http://pastebin.com/cqd2NMBC like that
11:40:51 madmuppet006, excellent
11:41:25 later
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13:10:26 Is there anyone familiar with Environment Model
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15:31:19 lcc: I'd be happy to answer questions, but I don't know how well I'd do at teaching.
15:35:36 rudybot, (define offby1 values)
15:35:36 Lajla: Done.
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15:35:45 rudybot, (eq? offby1 (compose))
15:35:46 Lajla: ; Value: #t
15:38:05 *offby1* taps his baton
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16:24:50 Lajla: You're like that kid who never gets tired of playing the same South Park or Beavis and Butthead episode over and over again.
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16:28:00 LOL
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16:36:35 cky, I disagree
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16:37:01 Lajla: you're like that kid who disagrees
16:37:08 rudybot, am I like that kid who never gets tired of playing the same South Park or Beavis and Butthead episode over and over again?
16:37:08 Lajla: there was a spark in 'jurassic park'
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16:41:22 rudybot: does it disappoint you that we still have unix, but haven't created dinosaurs?
16:41:22 ijp: i was disappoint
16:42:44 *ijp* consoles rudybot
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16:45:59 Lajla: I bet you never get tired of singing "Never gonna give you up", either. :-P
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16:57:14 cky, well, we're no strangers to love
16:57:19 You know the rules, and so do I.
16:59:22 klutometis : Prolog, and logic programming, isn't functional, right
17:00:42 klutometis : the declarative logic part is that you're able to reason logically about the program, e.g. replacing formulae with equivalent formulae, like commuting conjunctions and disjunctions, ditributing conjunction over disjunction, factoring conjunction out of disjunction, &c.
17:00:59 mjonsson [~mjonsson@38.109.95.176] has joined #scheme
17:01:26 the mutation that's happening to implement logic variables and constraints is just an implementation detail (an optimization, if you like)
17:02:07 but, Prolog isn't a pure logic programming language, since it also has side-effects, as forcer noted
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17:02:31 Mercury is a pure logic programming language (also having support for (pure) functional programming)
17:04:17 (so since Prolog isn't pure logical, it follows that you can't always use logical reasoning and equivalences to write, understand, maintain and refactor Prolog programs, the side-effects are often getting in the way -- in many cases though one can (practically) avoid them (just like in Scheme))
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17:05:38 finally, to get efficient programs written in a logic programming paradigm, you *also* need to have a grasp of the operational/procedural semantics (just like in Scheme)
17:07:28 I'd go as far as to say that the latter is true for *any* programming paradigm (due to them in the end running on this silly von neumann machine). Though the value of "efficient" can change greatly. (oh, i suppose i should also say that some people use "declarative programming" to mean "logic/relational programming". i prefer the former to include both the latter and functional programming (and maybe more))
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17:14:39 I don't think I've seen declarative being used to mean logic but not functional. Is that common?
17:14:56 somewhat common, at least
17:15:03 futilius: Used to be the standard in our university at least
17:15:09 thought declarative = not imperative
17:15:14 *ski* has seen people coming into ##prolog using it in that sense several times
17:15:15 They also used "applicative" for Scheme
17:15:23 interesting
17:15:59 forcer: I've seen that used more generally for functional, e.g. texts that deal with SML.
17:16:21 Yeah.
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17:16:30 the way I usually hear it, declarative seems to mean a style of programming where you don't specify the exact means/tactic but rather describe the result you want
17:16:36 They introduced Scheme as a functional programming language, and halfway through used SET!
17:16:36 futilius: declarative is not the only non-imperative, though. :)
17:16:48 (programming in SQL would probably also be included in declarative programming -- though SQL unfortunately has hideous syntax, and doesn't faithfully adher to the relational database model)
17:16:54 which, depending on what you want and how you go about it, can apply more or less relatively to functional/logic/OO
17:17:02 futilius: yes. examples that I use include SQL, regexp, make, shell pipelines, and such.
17:17:21 futilius: also, pattern matching tends to this area
17:17:33 qu1j0t3: yes, I think my second definition is closer, but I meant !imperative in that sense
17:17:34 futilius: à la Erlang, Scala, SML
17:18:36 I mean, there are definitely times when you think hmm how can I tell prolog (or haskell) calculate this thing
17:18:45 I think of "declarative" as "saying what I want", as opposed to "saying how I want it done"; I'm not sure "imperative" is a good word for the latter. But the whole terminology is not well defined anyhow.
17:19:15 I think imperative is okay. although you could say that "computer, give me this result, I don't care how you do it" is an imperative :)
17:19:41 Well, telling the computer which *result* you want is not a very interesting computational problem.
17:19:45 futilius : the way i interpret "declarative" is that you don't have to focus on the operational details (the how) all the time, concentrating what is to be expressed, having available useful reasoning and refacting principles -- a symptom of this is that the constructs are composable in a sensible way
17:19:52 (Except for natural language people I guess)
17:20:05 forcer: set! isn't so bad; it's the people using set-c[ad]r! you need to watch out for
17:20:10 forcer: agreed
17:20:13 forcer: agreed re def'n
17:20:26 futilius: well, that's an imperative command, but not an imperative program )
17:20:28 :)
17:20:41 qu1j0t3: exactly my point :)
17:20:47 that's an English problem.
17:20:48 Could I get an example for a non-imperative command?
17:21:00 forcer: sure, grep | sort etc
17:21:13 forcer: as opposed to writing the equivalent C.
17:21:36 don't know about that. I thought we just established that "imperative" and "command" are pretty much the same in english
17:21:40 (non-local examples of `set!' can be similar to uses of `set-c[ad]r!')
17:21:40 futilius: no.
17:21:43 futilius: we did not.
17:21:50 I was trying to be funny. If I wanted to be nitpicked, I'd note that the above then was not a command. But meh. Terminology. :-)
17:21:50 futilius: check forcer's definition above.
17:22:08 futilius: 'imperative paradigm' != imperative in the grammar sense. (a command)
17:22:13 that's the CS definition
17:22:21 right. the other isn't wanted here.
17:22:28 this ain't #english
17:22:34 it isn't ?
17:22:42 so you can have a non-imperative command where "imperative" and "command" are in CS-speak, but you can't have a non-imperative command in english
17:22:45 ski: in this conversation it's unproductively confusing.
17:22:47 *ski* sometimes gets the feeling that it is
17:22:49 qu1j0t3: you are right
17:22:51 There actually *is* an ##english
17:22:53 Awesome :-)
17:23:15 so basically what I'm saying is that I agree with forcer (?) that the terminology is not great
17:23:17 ski: well, there's a connection of course, but let's try to stick to one sense
17:23:43 ski: "Do this; do that" = string of imperative commands of course.
17:24:27 ski: leading to a program in the imperative paradigm which is specified operationally instead of abstractly
17:24:33 *ski* isn't exactly sure what qu1j0t3 is arguing about, atm
17:24:36 also the other point I was getting at is that there is some interpretation involved in decided if a program looks like "do this; do that" or describing an outcome
17:24:42 it's not 100% clear-cut
17:24:47 ski: easy: " ski | it isn't ? "
17:24:57 ski: or did you mean "it isn't #english" ?
17:25:09 qu1j0t3 : sorry, that line was meant as (hhos) joke
17:25:13 ski: oh nm :)
17:25:27 *qu1j0t3* shoudln't be here anyway, has to go to $OFFICE to fill out timesheets. :<
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17:25:39 aye, good sir
17:25:45 later, qu1j0t3
17:26:09 hi
17:26:19 futilius: yeah, the line gets clearer when you get to constructs such as non-deterministic solving in Scheme.
17:26:54 *ski* stares intently at adu
17:26:59 qu1j0t: yep. and the fact that "do this; do that" is really "give me this outcome; give me that outcome"
17:27:07 even if the outcome is small and low-level like a sum
17:27:11 :D
17:27:33 futilius: yes, you could be operationally specifying steps that are internally not specified imperatively, but i think at some point you have to restrict it to "the top level program"
17:28:13 futilius: to illustrate, let's say you implemetned a non-deterministic library in C, or say a topological sort in C (make), then the problem specification at top level is no longer imperative.
17:28:16 which, again, is not a well-defined notion. at least, with modules sometimes you would like to pretend that it isnt
17:28:22 futilius: that's *why* you did it. to up-level abstraction.
17:28:24 not trying to be difficult, I promise :)
17:28:46 futilius: no point in calling it imperative since you just did a lot of work to avoid *having* to describe your solution in deail.
17:28:46 qu1j0t3: I completely agree that that process happens
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17:29:26 qu1j0t3 : .. and avoid having to *reason* about it in detail
17:29:30 ski: yes.
17:30:30 it's a great wedding cake of layered abstractions as we all know... it's easier to talk about the top one ... and if you have a problem to solve, you usually only have patience for the top one.
17:30:46 aye
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17:31:03 so then it doesn't really make much sense to say that "declarative means prolog" imho
17:31:03 that's when you'd prefer not having leaky abstractions
17:31:05 cake? can I have some?
17:31:23 *ski* hands adu some banana cake
17:31:23 futilius: there are many varieties of declarative, so no, that wouldn't make sense. but prolog can be declarative.
17:31:36 *adu* *nawm* *nawm* *nawm*
17:31:45 prolog is.. more intent on enabling declarative programming than C
17:31:52 futilius: so can many languages, especially pattern matched ones, or where high level libraries exist like non-determinism
17:31:58 futilius : i didn't claim it made much sense, i only claimed apparently some people do use the term that way
17:32:17 ski: yes, that's where I came in :)
17:32:18 futilius: absolutely. It's hard to make C declarative. you have to build the abstractions yourself
17:33:07 futilius: but once you've done that, your top level solution might be simpler
17:33:14 right
17:33:25 futilius: it's analogous to the common exercise of writing Prolog in Scheme.
17:33:43 you always have the choice to abstract things in a turing-complete language. say if you wrote a parser combinator library in C. now you've added non-determinism
17:33:51 yes.
17:33:56 I'm writing Scheme in Go, is that a common exercise?
17:34:03 *qu1j0t3* vanishes
17:34:13 no, but it sounds like a pretty cool exercise
17:34:41 the more I write, the more I realize the less I need to write
17:34:56 it's a beautiful thing
17:35:19 futilius : except it's harder if you bulding-blocks you have to do with isn't very composable, e.g supposedly orthogonal features interact in surprising ways, as well as if the language values you want to use aren't first-class
17:35:51 ski: right. C makes it harder than Scheme to do this. you'd have a much easier time writing that parser combinator library in scheme
17:35:55 Icon is a language with some interesting non-imperative abstractions.
17:36:02 qu1j0t3: <3 Icon
17:36:06 :):)
17:36:17 also you totally didn't vanish, dude
17:36:23 futilius : so, it's not just about the level of the primitives you start with, it's also about how well-designed they are
17:36:23