Crony capitalism as practiced today in the West is organized crime. The only difference is that this mafia, unlike the lower level Tony Soprano type
mobs, owns the government, the media, the judiciary, and all the politicians, so they legalize their own crimes.

Politicians don't matter. Only people who don't understand the system care passionately and naively about political parties.

These criminals steal through government contracts, tax breaks, military-enforced resource extraction, and legislated monopolies on usury and money
creation. They are thieves and killers, nothing less, nothing more.

The only thing that matters is crime. We have a crimogenic system run by and for criminals. It's not more complicated than that.

Originally posted by jtma508
No question that 'letter' is just a fabricated piece of propaganda. There have been several versions floating around for years. Check Snopes. Of
course, pointing that out to the thread trolls went right over their heads. Why let facts get in the way of good solid personal prejudices? We're
screwed, face it. They've wrested complete control of the country and to a large extent the global economy. And there are enough shoeple out there
buying the fear-and-loathing story that they will continue to run rooughshod over the rest of us until we are eventually forced to hunt them down,
one-by-one, hiding in storm drains.

It's not about taxing the rich. It's not about 'redistribution of wealth'. It's about having one set of rules for everyone. A level economic
playing field that encourages and not squashes competition. It's a system that requires some responsibility to the general good of the country and
not a singular focus on profits and the bottom line. These businesses built their fortunes on the backs of workers we all paid to educate; on roads,
fire, police, etc. that we pay for.

The wealthy elite are absolutley no different than people like Kadafi. They see themselves as a completely different breed. They truly believe they
are entitled to their lifestyles and whatever they need to do to maintain and extend it --- at any cost. They believe that they are inherrently
different and superior to us. And that is what allows them to do the things they do without any guilt or conscience. That either changes or it will
end very badly. The writing, as they say, is on the wall. I hope they can read.

Like the majority of my father's immigrant clients and friends, I also became a Republican as soon as I started making money running my own
successful business.

My father, a survivor of the Great Depression, held fast to his FDR Democratic principles. He felt his friends were selfish, short-sighted and had
been corrupted by the wealth. He felt they had turned their backs on the party and principles that had lifted them out of the poverty they had left
behind in the Mediteranean islands.

At the time, I resented my father for the empathy I perceived as weakness. I thought him to be a sucker, a softy, nearly a sap. I argued for
"anarchic capitalism."

I had fallen for the Reagan Republican propaganda. "Cutting taxes on the rich will have a trickle down effect. Every dollar saved will be no
different than found money, like a lottery ticket. The rich will use the money to buy goods and services they otherwise would not have purchased. It
will stimulate the economy."

I also believed that regulations stiffled the economy. They were barriers put in place by jealous bureaucrats and the EPA was the result of snobbish
"Do Gooders" who would place the needs of a pigmy sperm whale or an owl before the needs of hardworking Americans.

Today I wish I could tell my father how I had let my greed, personal wants, immaturity and character defects help me rationalize belief in the
propaganda. I can understand his position.

He grew up in a Pennsylvania mining town where the environment was so choked with pollution, the sun was
blotted out from the sky and the river was devoid of life. The environment that is shared by all citizens, was in effect owned by the steel companies.

Everything has become crystal clear to me in the last few months. It could not be more obvious that monied interests control virtually every facet of
public life. They own politicians. They control mass media and have infiltrated every segment from advertisements to websites to radio and print. They
control marketing, think tanks research and university grants and research. They control much of the agriculture and have a lock on pharmaceuticals.
they control the educational system and indoctrination of our children. The armed forces have become one of the most profitable industries of all and
it is through that power they project themselves all over the globe.

All of this has been slowly abdicated over to them by distractions, indifference and the fact that both parents must work to survive.

Two things must happen to put an end to the madness.
1.We must let them understand through peaceful means there are simply way more of us than them and we are aware.
2. We must collectively agree on the relative value of every job.

By that I mean, deciding for instance the value of a banker relative to a engineer, an executive secretary relative to a carpenter and so on. Part of
the value was determined by a fair tax code and other liabilities ascribed to corporations. Part of the value had been determined by minimum wages and
benefits.

All of it must be mediated by elected officials who truly serve the interests of the 99%. How we get fromhere to there, I'm not sure but OWS is a
start.

I would love to see what would happen if there were 10,000,000 peaceful protesters surrounding Capitol Hill blocking all roads and access to the House
and Senate. Those greasy pols and their $5,000 toupees must be made aware just how small and impotent they truly are when surrounded by the millions
of citizens they have sworn to protect yet continue to screw on a daily basis with no more a thought than the flush of the toilet after their daily
constitutional.

So I have a quick couple questions for everybody who wants this "fair tax" so that bosses cant take their profits and do what they will with
them.

When the business looses money, will you be willing to sacrifice your own paycheck to keep it going?

Are you willing to be at work hours before the other workers get there, just to open up the place, without compensation?

Are you willing to go home later then the other workers if your needed too, without compensation?

Are you willing to sacrifice your time with your family just to better your hopes of making a bottom line?

How about sacrificing your weekends to put in that extra bit of work that needs to be done, are you willing to give those up?

Are you willing to make close to nothing for the first couple of years in hopes of the business taking off in the future?

Are you willing to look at somebody else who you know personally has problems with money at their home and tell them they have to be laid off because
demand is way down and your overstaffed?

Im willing to bet that for the most part, these answers are no.

Most small businesses make over $200,000 a year. When you increase their taxes they have to lay off people or cut their pay or most likely both to
make up for the difference and be somewhat viable. Also, most small businesses put away most of the profit they earn for the future, i.e. those times
when its dead slow at work and nothing is really happening, yeah, the company is loosing money keeping you there. Not everybody, actually most small
businesses, dont get lucky like G.E. and not have to pay taxes period on their profits. Most people do try to not have to pay as much when they own a
company, but so do you, dont you? Im willing to bet many people here on this thread take as many deductions as they can so they can either pay less
or get a fatter check at the end of the year back from the gov.

P.S. Its 10:15 here in FL and im about to get caught up on more work instead of going to bed so that my families company can keep going and make a
profit for us all the while employing about 100 people who otherwise would be S.O.L. for a while without a job (not many people are hiring in the
construction industry). What are other 30 year olds doing at 10:00 on a friday night for the most part? Probably out having some fun and spending
some of their hard earned money, I know most of my friends are.

I would love to see what would happen if there were 10,000,000 peaceful protesters surrounding Capitol Hill blocking all roads and access to the House
and Senate. Those greasy pols and their $5,000 toupees must be made aware just how small and impotent they truly are when surrounded by the millions
of citizens they have sworn to protect yet continue to screw on a daily basis with no more a thought than the flush of the toilet after their daily
constitutional.

Originally posted by dizzie56
Im willing to bet that for the most part, these answers are no.

Then you would be wrong. Like the OP, I was born in 1961 and every job I've held that had any responsibility attached had all the requirements you
listed. You work nights, weekends, come early and stay late if you want to get ahead at anything in this world. You do it without compensation and
hope that it eventually pays off.

Most small businesses make over $200,000 a year.

That's the payoff. When you're a small business owner or an employee in a large business and crack the 200K ceiling, congratulations. But it's
time to stop crying poverty and hardship. You're earning as much as six average families.

Star and Flag!!! I wish there was a way, here on ATS, to put together a "wish list" for the next President, Congress, etc. I'm seeing some
agreement from the normally arguing factions here where I think we, as a group, could come up with something well-stated and possible. For
example...I think we could all (or the majority) agree on a flat-tax. If we 10K+ (I believe) members could put a list together and post it
prominently, maybe that would make a difference.

Originally posted by theclutch
can someone post the "leter from a boss" I'm not sure what your talking about.

op your words do ring true. here in canada farmers do the same thing. you have a trucking business and a farm. If you make to much trucking, then
you buy a new tractor for the farm so you pay almost no tax. if the farm makes to much money then it buys the truck new tires or trailer or a new
truck. same idea in a smaller way!

It takes gaining maturity to reach such an epiphany, many of us fell for the Reaganomics ideas.

It would take more then 10 million around Capitol Hill before they would listen, but it could happen, there are far more then that who are under or
unemployed, and just as many who have lost their homes due to the total lack of economic sense shown by our government.

Yes, not only am I willing to do all of those things, I have done most of them. I have worked 80-100 hours a week just to keep my family afloat. I
have sacrificed weekends and holidays so that I could pay my family's medical bills. I have worked 340 days straight because it needed to be done.

At 30 years old, I was working one full-time job, one part-time job, and going to school full-time. My nights were for homework and the occasional
nap.

One more thing, the fair or flat tax concept simply means that everyone pays the same percentage on their earnings, thus treatly fairly. Herman Cain
proposes 999, 9% income tax, 9% corporate tax, and 9% national sales tax, the only portion of this I do not agree with is the sales tax. I, as a wage
earner, would be paying less with this program, then the present approximately 18% that I now pay.

That's the payoff. When you're a small business owner or an employee in a large business and crack the 200K ceiling, congratulations. But it's
time to stop crying poverty and hardship. You're earning as much as six average families.

Exactly, that is the payoff. You work your butt off to eventually make some more money. Money that right now is being taxed at over 30%. Dont you
think that if you do all this and then finally make a couple bucks you would want to try and keep as much as possible? I know I will if I ever make
that much money.

Yes, not only am I willing to do all of those things, I have done most of them. I have worked 80-100 hours a week just to keep my family afloat. I
have sacrificed weekends and holidays so that I could pay my family's medical bills. I have worked 340 days straight because it needed to be done.

At 30 years old, I was working one full-time job, one part-time job, and going to school full-time. My nights were for homework and the occasional
nap.

One more thing, the fair or flat tax concept simply means that everyone pays the same percentage on their earnings, thus treatly fairly. Herman Cain
proposes 999, 9% income tax, 9% corporate tax, and 9% national sales tax, the only portion of this I do not agree with is the sales tax. I, as a wage
earner, would be paying less with this program, then the present approximately 18% that I now pay.

I understand that small business owners arent the only ones that sacrifice and you have been thru some hardships. But, take all that you said in your
first two paragraphs and then add in that you end up putting your own check back into the company so you and others can have a job down the line.
That is the big difference.

My brother runs his own barbershop and he goes thru the same thing as you. He gets to work early, stays late, sacrifices time with his girl and our
family and he is currently looking for a second part time job, not much luck right now tho. But at the end of the week he has to put in half of
whatever money he made back into the business just to keep it afloat. And im not talking profit, it comes out of his own cuts and tips. The rest of
his money goes for whatever bills he has like his car and phone, he cant even afford to move out of my parents house right now. The benefits of going
thru all this are that one day he hopefully wont have to do this and that his couple employees have a place to work. Yes, they go thru some hardships
themselves but he aint asking them to throw in half of their moneyat the end of the week and neither are other business owners.

Also, I understand the flat tax concept and agree that it would be nice, in part. I dont necessarily like Cain's ideas for the exact reasons you
stated. 9% on income and 9% on corporate tax would be great...but that 9% on sales tax is a horrible idea. You and many others forget that their
will be state and even sometimes city and county taxes on top of that as well. Currently where I live, I only pay 7% sales tax on things that I buy.
Now add in Cain's 9% and that bumps it up to 16% on everything I buy...and thats if congress doesnt add a couple of points to each part of the 999
plan.

Im sorry if you thought that I was disagreeing with the flat tax idea in whole. The point I was trying to get across is that if your a business owner
and as the OP suggested and work your butt off for years only to see that when you finally make some money the government wants more then 30% of it
then wouldnt you want to try and take as many tax benefits as possible to keep some of that money?

You really have to look at this idea of making every coproration who earns more then $200k a year in the context of how it will affect small business
owners. Ill agree that the top tier of businesses in America have to much power in Congress and that we are really corporatized as a nation. But
that is something you need to fight at the voting booth to get rid of the ars' that are letting it happen in Congress. Because pushing an idea that
its perfectly and totally fair for any corporation that makes over $200k to pay more than 30% and not give any types of deductions isnt going to go
over well for anybody. Mass layoffs and wage reductions will ensue and more and more people will be out of work. Complaining about how business
owners take deductions when everybody else does the same thing is kind of hypocritical to say the least.

How about sacrificing your weekends to put in that extra bit of work that needs to be done, are you willing to give those up?

Most small businesses make over $200,000 a year. When you increase their taxes they have to lay off people or cut their pay or most likely both to
make up for the difference and be somewhat viable. Also, most small businesses put away most of the profit they earn for the future, i.e. those times
when its dead slow at work and nothing is really happening, yeah, the company is loosing money keeping you there. Not everybody, actually most small
businesses, dont get lucky like G.E. and not have to pay taxes period on their profits. Most people do try to not have to pay as much when they own a
company, but so do you, dont you? Im willing to bet many people here on this thread take as many deductions as they can so they can either pay less
or get a fatter check
at the end of the year back from the gov.

P.S. Its 10:15 here in FL and im about to get caught up on more work instead of going to bed so that my families company can keep going and make a
profit for us all the while employing about 100 people who otherwise would be S.O.L. for a while without a job (not many people are hiring in the
construction industry).
What are other 30 year olds doing at 10:00 on a friday night for the most part? Probably out having some fun and spending some of their hard earned
money, I know most of my friends are.

The questions you ask are rational and valid. I am by no means advocating any form of communism. I never would have taken the chance to open a bar if
the busboy made near as much money as I did.

What I am saying is this. Although I raised the capital, took all of the risk, invested in college and worked harder than the Honduran busboy, the bar
could not have operated without him.

What is a "fair" split of the income? During the first 5 years it was open, I made about $240,000/year. The busboy made about $25,000. The
dishwasher made half of that.

I never had a problem making 10 times more money than the busboy or 20 times the dishwasher. I would say what i brought to the table was worth 10 or
20 even 40 times more. How much is too much?

We can all agree that income should be a function of intelligence, hard work risk and luck. But we live in a society where bankers are making 100 -
1,000 times more than a teacher. That is absolutely insane. The same goes for the Dominican baseball player making 1,000 times more than the Dominican
dishwasher.

Does the banker or ball player really bring 1,000 times more value to our society?

It's sometimes hard to convey the life of an entrepreneur to the hourly employee. I applaud your hard work and success. Many families depend on you
for their wellbeing. I bet you are a fair steward.

I've started and run small businesses and have made a decent living. These arguments come up from time-to-time and they all have the same flaw ---
they confuse revenue with profit. A properly structured small business pays taxes ONLY on the profit which is revenue minus all expenses including
the salaries of its owners. A business' ability to pay its workers or hire new workers is based on revenue, not profit. There are many, many
companies that are not making profit that still pay their workforce. Look at GE. They paid no taxes and generated obscene revenue. They may be
gaming the system which certainly needs some overhaul but businesses can and must deduct real expenses from their revenue.

People who start businesses rather than take jobs do so for one of three primary reasons --- 1) they value independence over risk; 2) they feel they
have a chance of making more money working for themselves; 3) if they are successful the business will increase in value and can be sold. The last
one is the biggie and is largely the answer to your question. That's why small business owners put heart and soul into their endeavors. For the big
payday at the end. Their workers have no share in that.

This content community relies on user-generated content from our member contributors. The opinions of our members are not those of site ownership who maintains strict editorial agnosticism and simply provides a collaborative venue for free expression.