5:5 tells us what kind of non-Muslims a Muslima can marry: the same kind a Muslim man can marry.

5:5 does not tell you what kind of non-Muslim a Muslima can marry; you are making it up from yourself. This is why Allah never chose a woman messenger to deliver His Message. Allah knew what would happen to a verse like 5:5 because of her rebellion.

I'll make dua for you, bro.

Let talk with logic

the Moslem and his parties (Family & society) is like a POT "full with clean water " when you add a drop of water (kitabiah) but this drop is with some lighten color, there will be no that "Affect" and soon this color will fragmented out and pure water will remain.

5:5 tells us what kind of non-Muslims a Muslima can marry: the same kind a Muslim man can marry.

5:5 does not tell you what kind of non-Muslim a Muslima can marry; you are making it up from yourself. This is why Allah never chose a woman messenger to deliver His Message. Allah knew what would happen to a verse like 5:5 because of her rebellion.

I'll make dua for you, bro.

Let talk with logic

the Moslem and his parties (Family & society) is like a POT "full with clean water " when you add a drop of water (kitabiah) but this drop is with some lighten color, there will be no that "Affect" and soon this color will fragmented out and pure water will remain.

realize if the POT is the Kitabee!!?

salam

Are Allah and I the only ones here that don't look down on kitabi like they're vermin? If so, that's really sad.

Disclaimer: The opinions of this member are not primarily informed by western ethnocentric paradigms, stereotypes rooted in anti-Muslim/Islam hysteria, "Israel can do no wrong" intransigence, or the perceived need to protect the Judeo-Christian world from invading foreign religions and legal concepts. By expressing such views, no inherent attempt is being made to derail or hijack threads, but that may be the result. The result is not the responsibility of this member.

5:5 tells us what kind of non-Muslims a Muslima can marry: the same kind a Muslim man can marry.

5:5 does not tell you what kind of non-Muslim a Muslima can marry; you are making it up from yourself. This is why Allah never chose a woman messenger to deliver His Message. Allah knew what would happen to a verse like 5:5 because of her rebellion.

I'll make dua for you, bro.

Let talk with logic

the Moslem and his parties (Family & society) is like a POT "full with clean water " when you add a drop of water (kitabiah) but this drop is with some lighten color, there will be no that "Affect" and soon this color will fragmented out and pure water will remain.

realize if the POT is the Kitabee!!?

salam

Are Allah and I the only ones here that don't look down on kitabi like they're vermin? If so, that's really sad.

BETTER NOt TO SAY ""Allah and I"" whom you are!!? There is nothingggggggg for any one combined acts with Allah.

71:13 "'What is the matter with you, that ye place not your hope for kindness and long-suffering in Allah,-

71:13 (Picktall) What aileth you that ye hope not toward Allah for dignity.

71:13 (Asad) "'What is amiss with you that you cannot look forward to God's majesty,

5:5 tells us what kind of non-Muslims a Muslima can marry: the same kind a Muslim man can marry.

5:5 does not tell you what kind of non-Muslim a Muslima can marry; you are making it up from yourself. This is why Allah never chose a woman messenger to deliver His Message. Allah knew what would happen to a verse like 5:5 because of her rebellion.

I'll make dua for you, bro.

Let talk with logic

the Moslem and his parties (Family & society) is like a POT "full with clean water " when you add a drop of water (kitabiah) but this drop is with some lighten color, there will be no that "Affect" and soon this color will fragmented out and pure water will remain.

realize if the POT is the Kitabee!!?

salam

Are Allah and I the only ones here that don't look down on kitabi like they're vermin? If so, that's really sad.

You are not taking any notice of what Allah is saying:

[2.136] Say: We believe in Allah and (in) that which had been revealed to us, and (in) that which was revealed to Ibrahim and Ismail and Ishaq and Yaqoub and the tribes, and (in) that which was given to Musa and Isa, and (in) that which was given to the prophets from their Lord, we do not make any distinction between any of them, and to Him do we submit.

That is Command from Allah to you as to how you should believe.

[2.137] If then they believe as you believe in Him, they are indeed on the right course, and if they turn back, then they are only in great opposition, so Allah will suffice you against them, and He is the Hearing, the Knowing.

If then they believe in Allah as we believe then they are indeed on the right course. They are then Momineen and Muslims. That is not my verdict but the verdict of Allah (SWT). You are the only one who is not taking any notice of what Allah (SWT) is saying here as to which party is the party of true believers.

Men occasionally stumble over the truth, but most of them pick themselves up and hurry off as if nothing had happened. (Winston Churchill)

Are Allah and I the only ones here that don't look down on kitabi like they're vermin? If so, that's really sad.

I am not looking down at kitabi like they're vermin. Never! They are all people, human beings like us. In fact, history of the "chosen people" is wonderful. They are stilll some of the most intelligent people around even today. The debate is not about people but condition for marriage with them.

This is discussion is about marriage. You have expressed your view and I have expressed my understanding taking only the verses of the Qur'an into account.

I hope I have not upset you. I did not mean to upset you if I have. My apology if I have upset you.

I too will make dua for you, sister in Islam.

Salaam

Ibn

Men occasionally stumble over the truth, but most of them pick themselves up and hurry off as if nothing had happened. (Winston Churchill)

Does it, then, mean that the Sharia' and Fiqh in the formal study of Islam is not man-made?

Since our knowledge is limited by our lack of divinity, everything about study is man-made. Yet, we have been commanded by Allah to study and learn, even if it takes us to China.

In another post you said the Sharia' and Fiqh Laws are man made. And now, you are saying everything about study is man-made. I smell contradictions in your statement as a result of non-clear mind, perhaps. Lack of divinity is no reason to deny ALLAHswt's Command on Sharia' and Fiqh revealed in the Al-Quran in clear verses. ALLAHswt does not command me study and learn , even if takes me to China. Muhammadsaw did. What ALLAHswt's mention in the Al-Quran about all of his signs (which includes the ideas behind all of his Creation/Commands) are such as an array of challenging/motivating remarks such as the followings:

'inna fee zalika la-'Aayaatil-liqawmin yatafakkaroon (Verily, in that are indeed signs for a people who reflect).

'inna fee zaalika la-'Ayyaatil-lil'aalimeen (Verily, in that are indeed signs for men of sound knowledge)

'inna fee zaalika la-'Ayaatil-liqawmin yasma'oon (Verily, in that are indeed signs for a people who listen)

inna fee zalika la-'Ayaatil-liqawmin ya'qiloon(Verily, in that are indeed signs for a people who understand)

which indicate that one doesn't need the whole divinity to understand and observe the Commands on Sharia' and Fiqh stipulated in the Al-Quran. There were and there are people who ALLAHswt had blessed them with the capability of correct reflection, sound knowledge, understanding and correct listening.

Even Prophet Muhammadsaw, during the early stages of receiving divine revelation were instructed by ALLAHswt to go and ask (for whatever he was doubting) people:

Al-Anbiya' 21 : 7 And We sent not before you but men to whom We revealed. So ask the people of the Remember/Reminder ('ahlaz-zikri) if you do not know.

N.B. In many interpretation of this verse the Arabic "ahlaz-zikri" are interpreted to mean those people of the earlier scriptures - Taurat, Injil, Zabur (Psalms). This is an error. "ahlaz-zikri" generally means those pious and righteous people who spend most of their time in the remembrance of ALLAHswt to close up their potential divinity to that of ALLAHswt. In doing that they usually isolate themselves from the rest of their crowds. These were the people who were oriiginally referred to, in the Al-Quran, as the kitabi people. And Muhammadsaw did not contradict himself and the Al-Quran, ahlaz-zikrididn't limit its reference to the kitabi of Torah, Injil, Psalms. It extended to those of earlier faith/religions. This is reflected in that hadith about travelling to China (East) to seek (further) knowledge.

And for the last thousand years there were streams of Muslim ahlaz-zikri who came and go. And except for some disapponted few, most were not in denial of those specific Command/ verses of the Al-Quran outlining the guidance of Muslims marrying non-Muslims. And I am pretty sure in many Islamic Institution conducting formal study on Sharia' and Fiqh the view points, weak or strong, of most of those ahliz-zikri of the past weren't ignored/considered.

Yes, nothing happen to those who call themselves Muslims and disobey the guidance. Apparently, that may be so, but ALLAHswt is the Owner and Creator of Time, not them, you or me. He is the Sustainer of the whole Balance of the Universe that He creates and uncreates and recreates, at every instant.

Shari'a is discerned by our limited minds. Fiqh is th result of that discernment. Anything humans do is man-made. We have no real understanding of everything Allah wants or intends. We can only do our best.

In another post you said the Sharia' and Fiqh Laws are man made. And now, you are saying everything about study is man-made. I smell contradictions in your statement as a result of non-clear mind, perhaps. Lack of divinity is no reason to deny ALLAHswt's Command on Sharia' and Fiqh revealed in the Al-Quran in clear verses. ALLAHswt does not command me study and learn , even if takes me to China. Muhammadsaw did. What ALLAHswt's mention in the Al-Quran about all of his signs (which includes the ideas behind all of his Creation/Commands) are such as an array of challenging/motivating remarks such as the followings:

'inna fee zalika la-'Aayaatil-liqawmin yatafakkaroon (Verily, in that are indeed signs for a people who reflect).

'inna fee zaalika la-'Ayyaatil-lil'aalimeen (Verily, in that are indeed signs for men of sound knowledge)

'inna fee zaalika la-'Ayaatil-liqawmin yasma'oon (Verily, in that are indeed signs for a people who listen)

inna fee zalika la-'Ayaatil-liqawmin ya'qiloon(Verily, in that are indeed signs for a people who understand)

which indicate that one doesn't need the whole divinity to understand and observe the Commands on Sharia' and Fiqh stipulated in the Al-Quran. There were and there are people who ALLAHswt had blessed them with the capability of correct reflection, sound knowledge, understanding and correct listening.

Even Prophet Muhammadsaw, during the early stages of receiving divine revelation were instructed by ALLAHswt to go and ask (for whatever he was doubting) people:

Al-Anbiya' 21 : 7 And We sent not before you but men to whom We revealed. So ask the people of the Remember/Reminder ('ahlaz-zikri) if you do not know.

N.B. In many interpretation of this verse the Arabic "ahlaz-zikri" are interpreted to mean those people of the earlier scriptures - Taurat, Injil, Zabur (Psalms). This is an error. "ahlaz-zikri" generally means those pious and righteous people who spend most of their time in the remembrance of ALLAHswt to close up their potential divinity to that of ALLAHswt. In doing that they usually isolate themselves from the rest of their crowds. These were the people who were oriiginally referred to, in the Al-Quran, as the kitabi people. And Muhammadsaw did not contradict himself and the Al-Quran, ahlaz-zikrididn't limit its reference to the kitabi of Torah, Injil, Psalms. It extended to those of earlier faith/religions. This is reflected in that hadith about travelling to China (East) to seek (further) knowledge.

And for the last thousand years there were streams of Muslim ahlaz-zikri who came and go. And except for some disapponted few, most were not in denial of those specific Command/ verses of the Al-Quran outlining the guidance of Muslims marrying non-Muslims. And I am pretty sure in many Islamic Institution conducting formal study on Sharia' and Fiqh the view points, weak or strong, of most of those ahliz-zikri of the past weren't ignored/considered.

Yes, nothing happen to those who call themselves Muslims and disobey the guidance. Apparently, that may be so, but ALLAHswt is the Owner and Creator of Time, not them, you or me. He is the Sustainer of the whole Balance of the Universe that He creates and uncreates and recreates, at every instant.

Disclaimer: The opinions of this member are not primarily informed by western ethnocentric paradigms, stereotypes rooted in anti-Muslim/Islam hysteria, "Israel can do no wrong" intransigence, or the perceived need to protect the Judeo-Christian world from invading foreign religions and legal concepts. By expressing such views, no inherent attempt is being made to derail or hijack threads, but that may be the result. The result is not the responsibility of this member.

No need for apologizes, Ibn, although I appreciate the thought. How many years have we knocked heads over this subject? At least three, maybe five, yet, we are still friends. This time is no different, dear brother.

Are Allah and I the only ones here that don't look down on kitabi like they're vermin? If so, that's really sad.

I am not looking down at kitabi like they're vermin. Never! They are all people, human beings like us. In fact, history of the "chosen people" is wonderful. They are stilll some of the most intelligent people around even today. The debate is not about people but condition for marriage with them.

This is discussion is about marriage. You have expressed your view and I have expressed my understanding taking only the verses of the Qur'an into account.

I hope I have not upset you. I did not mean to upset you if I have. My apology if I have upset you.

I too will make dua for you, sister in Islam.

Salaam

Ibn

Disclaimer: The opinions of this member are not primarily informed by western ethnocentric paradigms, stereotypes rooted in anti-Muslim/Islam hysteria, "Israel can do no wrong" intransigence, or the perceived need to protect the Judeo-Christian world from invading foreign religions and legal concepts. By expressing such views, no inherent attempt is being made to derail or hijack threads, but that may be the result. The result is not the responsibility of this member.

Shari'a is discerned by our limited minds. Fiqh is th result of that discernment. Anything humans do is man-made. We have no real understanding of everything Allah wants or intends. We can only do our best.

In another post you said the Sharia' and Fiqh Laws are man made. And now, you are saying everything about study is man-made. I smell contradictions in your statement as a result of non-clear mind, perhaps. Lack of divinity is no reason to deny ALLAHswt's Command on Sharia' and Fiqh revealed in the Al-Quran in clear verses. ALLAHswt does not command me study and learn , even if takes me to China. Muhammadsaw did. What ALLAHswt's mention in the Al-Quran about all of his signs (which includes the ideas behind all of his Creation/Commands) are such as an array of challenging/motivating remarks such as the followings:

'inna fee zalika la-'Aayaatil-liqawmin yatafakkaroon (Verily, in that are indeed signs for a people who reflect).

'inna fee zaalika la-'Ayyaatil-lil'aalimeen (Verily, in that are indeed signs for men of sound knowledge)

'inna fee zaalika la-'Ayaatil-liqawmin yasma'oon (Verily, in that are indeed signs for a people who listen)

inna fee zalika la-'Ayaatil-liqawmin ya'qiloon(Verily, in that are indeed signs for a people who understand)

which indicate that one doesn't need the whole divinity to understand and observe the Commands on Sharia' and Fiqh stipulated in the Al-Quran. There were and there are people who ALLAHswt had blessed them with the capability of correct reflection, sound knowledge, understanding and correct listening.

Even Prophet Muhammadsaw, during the early stages of receiving divine revelation were instructed by ALLAHswt to go and ask (for whatever he was doubting) people:

Al-Anbiya' 21 : 7 And We sent not before you but men to whom We revealed. So ask the people of the Remember/Reminder ('ahlaz-zikri) if you do not know.

N.B. In many interpretation of this verse the Arabic "ahlaz-zikri" are interpreted to mean those people of the earlier scriptures - Taurat, Injil, Zabur (Psalms). This is an error. "ahlaz-zikri" generally means those pious and righteous people who spend most of their time in the remembrance of ALLAHswt to close up their potential divinity to that of ALLAHswt. In doing that they usually isolate themselves from the rest of their crowds. These were the people who were oriiginally referred to, in the Al-Quran, as the kitabi people. And Muhammadsaw did not contradict himself and the Al-Quran, ahlaz-zikrididn't limit its reference to the kitabi of Torah, Injil, Psalms. It extended to those of earlier faith/religions. This is reflected in that hadith about travelling to China (East) to seek (further) knowledge.

And for the last thousand years there were streams of Muslim ahlaz-zikri who came and go. And except for some disapponted few, most were not in denial of those specific Command/ verses of the Al-Quran outlining the guidance of Muslims marrying non-Muslims. And I am pretty sure in many Islamic Institution conducting formal study on Sharia' and Fiqh the view points, weak or strong, of most of those ahliz-zikri of the past weren't ignored/considered.

Yes, nothing happen to those who call themselves Muslims and disobey the guidance. Apparently, that may be so, but ALLAHswt is the Owner and Creator of Time, not them, you or me. He is the Sustainer of the whole Balance of the Universe that He creates and uncreates and recreates, at every instant.

Of course! if you wish to think it in it's absolutest of term. And the best that had been given to those believing Muslims are the Al-Quran and most of the essential Commands are in plain and clear languages in Arabic sense. Dr. Taj Hargey doesn't appear to me as of Arabic descent. More likely he is of Indian sub-continent descent. And, like many other works by interpreters and (English) translators of Al-Quran who hailed from there, I, personally, do a lot of questioning about their logics and accuracies. It just so happened that their English colonial masters did teach them their good English. And back to the issue .... Dr. Taj Hargey would say the same - he is doing the best and so are those countless Muslims who have sat in the fatwa councils in Muslim states all over the world and passed away over the last hubdreds or thousand years. What make you think that Dr. Taj Hargey or any other emerging up-and-coming Muslim celebrity to re-write the last two verses of the Sura Al-Fatihah from.....

"...Guide us to the Straight Way. The Way on those Whom you have bestowed Your Grace, not of those who earned Your Anger, nor of those who went astray."

to something like ...

"Guide us to the Way of the Universalist and Humanist. The Way on those Whom you have bestowed celebrity statures of the rich and famous wlaking into the Universal Hall of Fame" and their noblest Nobel.

Shari'a is discerned by our limited minds. Fiqh is th result of that discernment. Anything humans do is man-made. We have no real understanding of everything Allah wants or intends. We can only do our best.

In another post you said the Sharia' and Fiqh Laws are man made. And now, you are saying everything about study is man-made. I smell contradictions in your statement as a result of non-clear mind, perhaps. Lack of divinity is no reason to deny ALLAHswt's Command on Sharia' and Fiqh revealed in the Al-Quran in clear verses. ALLAHswt does not command me study and learn , even if takes me to China. Muhammadsaw did. What ALLAHswt's mention in the Al-Quran about all of his signs (which includes the ideas behind all of his Creation/Commands) are such as an array of challenging/motivating remarks such as the followings:

'inna fee zalika la-'Aayaatil-liqawmin yatafakkaroon (Verily, in that are indeed signs for a people who reflect).

'inna fee zaalika la-'Ayyaatil-lil'aalimeen (Verily, in that are indeed signs for men of sound knowledge)

'inna fee zaalika la-'Ayaatil-liqawmin yasma'oon (Verily, in that are indeed signs for a people who listen)

inna fee zalika la-'Ayaatil-liqawmin ya'qiloon(Verily, in that are indeed signs for a people who understand)

which indicate that one doesn't need the whole divinity to understand and observe the Commands on Sharia' and Fiqh stipulated in the Al-Quran. There were and there are people who ALLAHswt had blessed them with the capability of correct reflection, sound knowledge, understanding and correct listening.

Even Prophet Muhammadsaw, during the early stages of receiving divine revelation were instructed by ALLAHswt to go and ask (for whatever he was doubting) people:

Al-Anbiya' 21 : 7 And We sent not before you but men to whom We revealed. So ask the people of the Remember/Reminder ('ahlaz-zikri) if you do not know.

N.B. In many interpretation of this verse the Arabic "ahlaz-zikri" are interpreted to mean those people of the earlier scriptures - Taurat, Injil, Zabur (Psalms). This is an error. "ahlaz-zikri" generally means those pious and righteous people who spend most of their time in the remembrance of ALLAHswt to close up their potential divinity to that of ALLAHswt. In doing that they usually isolate themselves from the rest of their crowds. These were the people who were oriiginally referred to, in the Al-Quran, as the kitabi people. And Muhammadsaw did not contradict himself and the Al-Quran, ahlaz-zikrididn't limit its reference to the kitabi of Torah, Injil, Psalms. It extended to those of earlier faith/religions. This is reflected in that hadith about travelling to China (East) to seek (further) knowledge.

And for the last thousand years there were streams of Muslim ahlaz-zikri who came and go. And except for some disapponted few, most were not in denial of those specific Command/ verses of the Al-Quran outlining the guidance of Muslims marrying non-Muslims. And I am pretty sure in many Islamic Institution conducting formal study on Sharia' and Fiqh the view points, weak or strong, of most of those ahliz-zikri of the past weren't ignored/considered.

Yes, nothing happen to those who call themselves Muslims and disobey the guidance. Apparently, that may be so, but ALLAHswt is the Owner and Creator of Time, not them, you or me. He is the Sustainer of the whole Balance of the Universe that He creates and uncreates and recreates, at every instant.

Of course! if you wish to think it in it's absolutest of term. And the best that had been given to those believing Muslims are the Al-Quran and most of the essential Commands are in plain and clear languages in Arabic sense. Dr. Taj Hargey doesn't appear to me as of Arabic descent. More likely he is of Indian sub-continent descent. And, like many other works by interpreters and (English) translators of Al-Quran who hailed from there, I, personally, do a lot of questioning about their logics and accuracies. It just so happened that their English colonial masters did teach them their good English. And back to the issue .... Dr. Taj Hargey would say the same - he is doing the best and so are those countless Muslims who have sat in the fatwa councils in Muslim states all over the world and passed away over the last hubdreds or thousand years. What make you think that Dr. Taj Hargey or any other emerging up-and-coming Muslim celebrity to re-write the last two verses of the Sura Al-Fatihah from.....

"...Guide us to the Straight Way. The Way on those Whom you have bestowed Your Grace, not of those who earned Your Anger, nor of those who went astray."

to something like ...

"Guide us to the Way of the Universalist and Humanist. The Way on those Whom you have bestowed celebrity statures of the rich and famous wlaking into the Universal Hall of Fame" and their noblest Nobel.

Shari'a is discerned by our limited minds. Fiqh is th result of that discernment. Anything humans do is man-made. We have no real understanding of everything Allah wants or intends. We can only do our best.

The question is ; how we can do our best??

To do your best in any concept you have to study this concept.

To study this concept you have to read all what is about,..

but what you are saying is to ignore and reject "all about concept" even though years had been spent, various full ages were in-evolved, thousands of books, wonderful chine from one Fageeh to another through ages,… and simply you turn to look into your kitchen drawer as it is at utmost of your best to do!!!!?.