Rule #1: Everyone thinks they can beat the market, and 99% of them are wrong

At face value I agree whole heartedly.

Quote:

It's mandatory because people are stupid and greedy, and would rather have a plasma TV now than food in 40 years time

silmdave, could you explain that a little more? How could greed possibly make contributions mandatory when most know something is amiss with the whole social security system. I can understand how stupidity could play a part, but greed?

02-09-2005, 10:25 AM

Alchemy

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but they don't decide when they can get out of the market

Why can't they decide when to get out. IF I ever decide to place my money in the stock market, which isn't likely, you can believe I'm going to get out when I want to. How many people placing their money in the stock market are going to do so KNOWING in advance they can have no part in deciding when to get out?

02-09-2005, 10:32 AM

slimdave

Quote:

silmdave, could you explain that a little more? How could greed possibly make contributions mandatory when most know something is amiss with the whole social security system. I can understand how stupidity could play a part, but greed?

Very straightforward -- if you gave people the choice between paying taxes for some payback at a future date, and just having the money now, then people will just take it now. Will they invest it wisely for the future? Nope. They'll spend it on putting spinnas on their crap-mobile, or on booze, or be off to Vegas. So it has to be mandatory.

How much of a mess is Social Security in? Depends who you ask. Ask the Congressional Budget Office and they'll tell you that even if nothing is done at all, SS payments would not have to be reduced until 2052 -- far from the imminent collapse that the administration claimed here

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"As a matter of fact, by the time today's workers who are in their mid-20s begin to retire, the system will be bankrupt. So if you're 20 years old, in your mid-20s, and you're beginning to work, I want you to think about a Social Security system that will be flat bust, bankrupt, unless the United States Congress has got the willingness to act now. And that's what we're here to talk about, a system that will be bankrupt."

Well, that's no more true than the "imagine a mushroom cloud over New York" argument was for invading Iraq. It's pretty much an outright lie.

02-09-2005, 10:34 AM

slimdave

Quote:

Originally posted by Alchemy

Why can't they decide when to get out. IF I ever decide to place my money in the stock market, which isn't likely, you can believe I'm going to get out when I want to. How many people placing their money in the stock market are going to do so KNOWING in advance they can have no part in deciding when to get out?

Maybe you will be able to, because even as all the pundits are screaming that "now is the time to invest in equity" you'll be wise enough to get out. Or on the other hand, maybe you'll be unexpectedly canned when you're 58 and be unable to get anything other than a Wal*Mart greeter/bagger job, and have to start withdrawing immediately when the market is on one of them slumps.

02-09-2005, 10:46 AM

gandolf989

Quote:

Originally posted by Alchemy

Why can't they decide when to get out. IF I ever decide to place my money in the stock market, which isn't likely, you can believe I'm going to get out when I want to. How many people placing their money in the stock market are going to do so KNOWING in advance they can have no part in deciding when to get out?

I owned stock at a former company. I sold when the stock hit $60 per share, shortly after I sold it went to $70 per share. Six months later it was down to $45 per share. If you are in for the long haul and you are diversified, none of this matters. If you are trying to time the market, you never know whether you made the best decision until it is too late. Depending on when I sold I could have made $10 more per share of $5 dollars less per share.

Also Enron looked profitable right up until the end. How does an average investor know when they own stock in a company like Enron. And yes you do need to have your portfolio diversified.

02-09-2005, 10:56 AM

gandolf989

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Originally posted by OracleDoc Republican=Less Government
Democrat=More Government

Letting me run my own retirement savings? Hell yea where do I sign? The less the government is involved with my money the better. Unlike other people who want to sit back and let the government take care of them. Bunch of lazy f*#&ers

Welfare, Social Security are all programs to keep people as sheeple bahhh bahhh.

Kind of reminds me of the grasshopper and ant story.

I hate to poke holes in your entertaining story, but ants live in a socialistic society, kind of similar to the system that the U.S.S.R. had before it fell apart. You aren't advocating socialism, are you??? ;) Perhaps the grasshopper is just a lazy hippie type, or maybe he is a calculating repubican? :D

We might have all been better of if social security started off with private accounts. But how can you suddenly take away benefits to someone who has paid in their entire lives? Given the massive national debt that we are facing, how are we going to bridge the gap if we go to private accounts? I don't think provate accounts are bad in and of themselves, but someone has to pay to transition the system to private accounts. Bush said that he plans to cut future benefits for people who are under 55. Another option would be to raise the max in witholding, or we could borrow. But the money is going to come from somewhere.

Perhaps if our government got their financial house in order, stopped running a yearly deficit and paid down the national debt, we could easily create private accounts, and going forward there would be more money pumped into the stock market. The bottom line is we can go to private accounts at any time, once we get the fincancing worked out.

02-09-2005, 11:02 AM

slimdave

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Originally posted by gandolf989 I owned stock at a former company. I sold when the stock hit $60 per share, shortly after I sold it went to $70 per share. Six months later it was down to $45 per share. If you are in for the long haul and you are diversified, none of this matters. If you are trying to time the market, you never know whether you made the best decision until it is too late. Depending on when I sold I could have made $10 more per share of $5 dollars less per share.

Also Enron looked profitable right up until the end. How does an average investor know when they own stock in a company like Enron. And yes you do need to have your portfolio diversified.

I think that the point you're illustrating is that for the common investor the stock market is a big guessing game. A diversified and low-risk portfolio is not going to get you anywhere in the ballpark of 8%, and it only takes exposure to a couple of companies like Enron and you can kiss goodbye to a whole bunch of money. Who knows which companies they are? Certainly not the little guys.

Tha main point though is that the recent talk of some big bankrupcy crisis in Social Security is just made up to suit a political agenda -- scare tactics that have worked before for the administration and will probably work again.

02-09-2005, 11:04 AM

OracleDoc

Look, you're obviously set in your ways and willfully let the government take care of you. You said it yourself "It's mandatory because people are stupid and greedy".
It's ok go buy that Plasma we'll (the govt) take care of you.... *pfffftttt* go put that 4k that'd you spend on a plasma into a CD then when it hits maturity, get the 102 incher and put the rest into the IRA.

It's not a question of beating the market its a question of being prepaired and making wise choices.
What would you rather do put away 500 a month at 4% interest and receive $2,300 a month or if you make $40,000 a year, when you retire you get $1,342 a month?

My findings are from SS place
and here. Plug your own numbers in and you will see that private investment will always at least double what SS will.

02-09-2005, 11:23 AM

slimdave

Quote:

Look, you're obviously set in your ways and willfully let the government take care of you. You said it yourself "It's mandatory because people are stupid and greedy".
It's ok go buy that Plasma we'll (the govt) take care of you.... *pfffftttt* go put that 4k that'd you spend on a plasma into a CD then when it hits maturity, get the 102 incher and put the rest into the IRA.

It's not about what I'd do ... I don't need to rely on social security for anything (which is a good job, having only started contributing to it six years ago ... I probably won't even be living in the US when I retire). Those lovely safe CD's are paying about 3.1% at the moment, and then take off inflation at about 2.3% and what have you got in real terms? Diddly-squat. Take the past 20 years and CPI has averaged about 3.2%, I believe. * Ahem *

02-09-2005, 11:51 AM

Mr.Hanky

CHRIST!!

Tomorrow you ****ers will be DEAD!!

Live for today!!

Go get laid!
Have a drink!
Go snowboarding!
Hug your kids!
Play guitar!