I was thinking the other day about, if there were such a thing, who would be in it, and then that spiraled off into, who would be in the inaugural class... As I was thinking about it, I came up with some guidelines in my head -

1. I wouldn't necessarily rank player A ahead of player B in my mind if player A played quizbowl all over and player B played just in-state quizbowl, especially when thinking across eras.

2. Any player still in college or still playing college quizbowl would not be eligible initally (think of the 5-year rule in the MLB).

3. How 'good' was that player in terms of being the best player on his/her team. That is, did he/she have good teammates that made him/her look remarkably better than they were?

One of the things that kind of stuffed me here is when you have a team led by a dynamite player that barely played anything besides their league and maybe regionals/states... I'm sure its happened a bunch of times over the years.

So I started coming up with a list, and let's say we could only take the top 5 into the inaugural class. Here is what I threw together (and I'm darn sure I'm missing some guys, so chime in old-timers)Names to Consider:

Noah Rahman, Solon (2001-2005) - Perhaps the best Ohio QB player EVER, that is, until Sam becomes eligible. An amazing player with general knowledge depth in almost every category.

Brandon Eilertson, Copley (1996-1999) - most of you are unfamiliar with Brandon, but he was by-far the best player in the state during his junior and senior years and did fairly well in college quizbowl at Case.

Zach Witeof, Tippecanoe (2001-2005) - Was a fairly good player on a strong team as an underclassman with senior Jack Zhou, but came into his own as a senior, leading Tipp to the NAQT Division II title, but more impressively, helping them storm back from a first round loss at OAC states all the way to a runner-up finish when the tournament was still 10 teams and double elimination.

Dennis Butcher, Copley (1999-2003) - Started on their varsity sparingly as a freshman and was the captain from his senior year on. Was one of the best history players I've ever coached against and was also a pretty darn good generalist.

Steven Wellstead, Fisher Catholic (2003-2007) - Steven was pretty impressive when I first met him as a freshman, despite being on the B-team behind a LOADED state champion "A" team featuring Sarah Hickman, Leo Guinan, et al. Although he wasn't the captain of the team until his senior year, he was a big contributor to the 2006 state title team featuring Kyle Rainier and he only got more impressive as he got older.

Dan Humphrey, Garfield Heights (2004-2008) - I might be a little biased here, but after Steven's graduation, Dan was the best player in Ohio his senior year. From 2006-2008, he was a large part or the captain of four state championship teams (2 OAC / 2 NAQT).

Eric Evans, Granville (1985-1989) - I was unable to find any real info on him except that he's in the QU hall-of-fame (for what that's worth)... I did have a few old timers tell me he was a fairly dominant player back in an era when the questions were something to the effect of 'what color is a red firetruck?"... although as I said, the difference in eras would not be a deterrent when naming people to the list.

Ike Jose, Stow-Munroe Falls (2005-2009) - Ike in his heyday would have given Noah a run for his money. That said, Ike seemed to get disenchanted with the high school game and started playing more college tournaments while still in school which I believe led to him winning the ACF Division II National title playing solo? if I remember correctly. Still a downright dominant player his senior year and most of his junior year as well.

Other Players in Consideration:

Abbaad Haider, Copley (2001-2005)John Presloid, Garfield Heights (1996-2000)Ryan Haas, Tippecanoe (2003-2007)Robert Makishi, Copley (2003-2007)Sarah Hickman, Fisher Catholic (2000-2004)Mike McLaughlin, North Olmsted (1999-2003)Bob and Mike Shott, Copley (mid-90s)Mike Bindis, Garfield Heights (1987-1990) (Mike was a dynamite player from what I surmise who fell one win short of an OAC title)Ben Gum, Beavercreek (1986-1990) - I don't really know much about him except that he was the Beavercreek captain who beat GHHS in the state title match and also was the state mathematics champion (from what Bindis told me)Beavercreek's captain in 2000 and 2001 - I don't know his name (Jonathan would) and I didn't play against him as a senior, but he was downright dominant from watching him play. GHHS was one of the better teams in the state in 2000 and along with another solid teammate whose name eludes me, he manhandled us twice that year.

Players Eligible in Future Years that would definitely be in or at least considered if this really existed:

NOW YOUR TURN - Who did I leave off this list and what's their body of work that would make them eligible to be included? I didn't do this as a slight to anyone by the way, but I thought it would be an interesting discussion, ESPECIALLY for those of you that have been around the game awhile cough: Bellas :cough.

Well, for one, I wouldn't be eligible at all right now due to Rule #2 (I'm most definitely still in college, and I may be for another 5 or so years hopefully), so I'm not really sure why I'm on the second list and not the third.

Two things bug me whenever I think about trying a project like this. The first one would be how to compare someone from my era to that of the 1990's, or even a more recent time like Noah Rahman's. I always want to make a comparison between myself and Noah, but I just really can't, since the quizbowl he played is definitely not the quizbowl I played in high school. The second thing is actually more of a reaction to your post, which includes mentions about the college game. How would this factor into the Hall of Fame and how you'd rank/judge these players? Are you looking at the number of titles they won in either high school or college, how good said player was when they peaked, or based on what their greatest accomplishment was? For example, one can and should definitely consider Noah Rahman highly because he was the leading scorer on a team that's still the closest to Ohio winning a title at HSNCT or PACE, but if you include the college game, Ike Jose (who indeed did win that ACF Nats DII title playing solo) is clearly the frontrunner because he was the leading scorer on an ACF Nationals-winning team, and people like myself, Jarret Greene, and Saajid Moyen, aren't far behind because we're all still playing college quizbowl and doing well in it, and all of us have some number of state/national titles to boot at the high school level.

_________________Jasper LeeUniversity of TennesseeOhio State University '14Solon High School '10

That was kind of where some ambiguity came in when I was trying to come up with the list... I was trying to include a full body of work without putting college accomplishments into it. That said, I think its harder for players to compare across eras than coaches... I'm not saying we should compare Noah ca. 2005 to someone from 1992, I'm saying we should look at what they did as a quizbowl player, accomplishment-wise and say, they were the best in their time period.

You're right though, Noah would have destroyed just about the entire state my senior year if he was the same age, as would the best players in 2001 if they were 5 years older -- that's just the nature of the game and its evolution.

Yeah, because of the dramatic way the game has changed, it's really hard (if not impossible) to compare players from different eras. In these sort of discussions, I think it makes most sense to compare how each player fared against the competition of their era. For instance, even though Noah at his high school peak would almost surely not not be a top tier player if he suddenly played today (or any time in the past 5 years), he should still be considered one of the top 2 Ohio players ever (along with Ike) because of the way he dominated during his era.

The only person that I would argue for consideration that you didn't mention is Jacob Durst. During 2006 and 2007 he was definitely one of the best players in the game. Under his leadership, Walnut Hills had high finishes at OAC States (2nd in 2006, and 3rd or 4th in 2007), and I'm sure they would have had similar (if not better) results at NAQT States if they would have gone (back in the day it was held at Garfield Heights, so they didn't attend due to the distance). He also led Walnut Hills to an impressive t.13th place finish at the 2007 HSNCT (is that the best-ever HSNCT finish at the time other than 2005 Solon?).

And for kicks and giggles, If I had to vote for an inaugural class of 5 choosing from the Class of 2009 and before, I suppose I'd have to pick:

I've tried to post this over the last two days, but for some reason, coming to this site makes my internet connection at home shut down.

I think that one of the things about the earlier eras was that anyone who played on a balanced team who could've stood out on their own on a different team is pretty much forgotten. Just considering the years that I was playing, most of the great teams other than Copley were pretty balanced. I had two good teammates, Alex Connor played with Pat "Buckeyemart" Hammar, Fisher Catholic usually had multiple good players, and the Cincinnati area schools that were really good back then often had two or three good players for that era on their team, well except maybe Matt Luby at St. Xavier. I don't really think that Dennis Butcher was better than the rest of us, it was just that in that era, OAC was played differently in different parts of the state and he took advantage of some of the rules that people from other parts of the state weren't used to. I think that this is one of the reasons why the baseball and football halls of fame have committees for certain eras who know what skills were important in each era, as opposed to trying to equate past players to today's standards.

Anyway, if this were real, I would also include a vote for a coach, and give it to Bob Weiser, because he had the courage to stand up to Sue and bring NAQT to Ohio. There were teams that had wanted to host NAQT tournaments as early as the 2000-2001 school year, or possibly earlier, but didn't for various reasons. I guess if I had to vote for five people whose high school career had some overlap with mine, I would choose Noah Rahman, Steve Fiore (the guy whose name Bob couldn't remember), Jeff Ellis from Copley (who actually knew academic things, unlike most Copley people who survived on trivia), I guess Mike McLaughlin, but it would be a really hard decision for who the fifth would be.

That team you had your senior year at Beavercreek was AMAZINGLY balanced Jonathan. I only played them once or twice, but I got to see them play a couple other times and it was incredible to see how you guys contributed so equally. The state that year was really balanced too team-wise, which was probably the most wide-open the state tournament ever was. I remember predicting a BC-Copley final, only to see you guys have to square off in the loser's bracket and although I had played and gotten beat up by Alex's St. Charles team, I never expected them to be able to top either of you two, let alone a couple other teams. That was a fun year.

One for sure I'd put up is Doug Slocum. In 2008, he finished 20th in the nation at HSNCT. This is the same year that Dan Humphreys finished behind Doug (23rd) and Ike only finished 10th. Keep in mind Doug had Catie Haas taking all the Lit buzzes and some help from Joe Gauthier in science and Josh Brown in trash. Ike was a one man show with literally no teammates and Dan only had Joe Wells as a serious help on that 2008 team. Doug also managed to beat Kurtis Droge in a showdown match at Wayne State earlier that year, and he started as a freshman on teams that had Ryan Haas and Mike Dever from 2005-06. So definitely Doug belongs.

I'd also mention Kirun Sankaran. Special K was a force in central Ohio and really dominated some tournaments for Columbus Academy. He beat some really good teams in the 2007 and 2008 seasons and those included Fisher, Copley and Tipp. I think his college career might have been even better, but we aren't taking that into consideration.

I think the mark of a great player is what happens to the team when the player graduates. If the program falls apart or goes into a coma, it might be the hangover that the departure of a great player can cause. I know firsthand that when Zach graduated we floundered for a year before we got our footing back with Ryan/Mike/Nick/Joe. I think the same could be said for Noah and Steven. So finding a hangover effect might be an indication you are looking at a hall of famer.

Anyway, if this were real, I would also include a vote for a coach, and give it to Bob Weiser, because he had the courage to stand up to Sue and bring NAQT to Ohio. There were teams that had wanted to host NAQT tournaments as early as the 2000-2001 school year, or possibly earlier, but didn't for various reasons.

unlike most Copley people who survived on trivia

Not sure if you're serious. But the Copley hate seems to be strong with you.

I think you are wrong on Bob vs. Sue. They are as much supporters of each other as anyone I've seen in the circuit. Sue has always favored OAC over TU/B, but you are off-base if you are trying to argue that Sue was a barrier to NAQT getting into Ohio. She has and always will keep OAC on the front burner at her tournament, but that's the decision of each and every tournament director, not Sue Korosa. Plus, I brought NAQT to the TAC about the time Bob brought it to his tournament (I think he beat me by a year), but my delay did not have anything to do with Copley but with the expense. So if you want to argue about coaches let's take that to a separate thread and not derail Bob's rather interesting quest with some nonsense about coaching politics and format.

I think the first year of Solon NAQT/Glen Gonsalves was 2005 because that was the team I still think was my 'best' team in terms of balance and knowledge and I remember we beat Shadyside (Andy Watkins and Grant May) in the finals for my first non-league tournament win as a coach.

According to this link: http://www.naqt.com/stats/school-hosted.jsp?org_id=1152 The old OSU team, before it fell into obscurity and inactivity in the early/mid 2000s, hosted a tournament using NAQT questions all the way back in 2001, and then another in 2003. I'd love to see the results for those tournaments, to see who was playing in the some of the first TU/B tournaments in Ohio.

As for Hall of Famers, there are a lot of great, deserving names being thrown around, but I'd like to add two more: Jacob Snider and Tyler Benedict. I never played Tyler, but I remember hearing a lot about him back when I first started getting into quizbowl in late 2009. And Jake Snider seems to be really overlooked as one of the last members of those great Fisher teams that was able to hold his own (along with Maddy Kennedy and others) when the reins were handed to him. 2009 was kind of a down year for Ohio quizbowl (aside from Walnut Hills and Ike, but he didn't play many high school tournaments at all that yer), but guys like Jake and Manraj Grewal were really excellent players during that weird bridge year after Garfield Heights graduated their great players and before the Olmsted Falls and Northmont programs got rolling.

For my money, though, there are three players who absolutely have to be on every "ballot" no matter what: Noah Rahman, Ike Jose and Saajid Moyen. Noah and Ike are kind of set apart from Saajid in that they were doing things that were pretty radical for Ohio quiz competition, while Saajid went on a study binge that most players should look to for inspiration. From ~5ppg at Rowdy Raider 2009 to being the 2nd highest scorer at HSNCT and NASAT, that dude got incredibly good incredibly quick and only Jim Coury and friends stood between his Copley team and a clean sweep of both the NAQT and OAC State titles. Those three are, IMO, the best high school quizbowlers Ohio has ever had (although I'm sure there are some 90s stars that I'm overlooking because the game was so radically different).

Anyway, if this were real, I would also include a vote for a coach, and give it to Bob Weiser, because he had the courage to stand up to Sue and bring NAQT to Ohio. There were teams that had wanted to host NAQT tournaments as early as the 2000-2001 school year, or possibly earlier, but didn't for various reasons.

unlike most Copley people who survived on trivia

Not sure if you're serious. But the Copley hate seems to be strong with you.

I brought NAQT to the TAC about the time Bob brought it to his tournament (I think he beat me by a year), but my delay did not have anything to do with Copley but with the expense.

I guess I should've phrased it differently, but I'm pretty sure that Jeff was the guy from Copley who was good at history that Bob Kilner was thinking of, and not Dennis, although they might have both been good at history. I know Jeff was because he could power regular difficulty college level history tossups in practice at OSU. I guess I thought that if the reason that Bob Weiser won the Cooper Award from PACE was for bringing NAQT to Ohio, that he was therefore the guy who did it. I was mistaken. Sorry about that. Since Jeff is one of my Facebook friends, I'll see if he knows anything about those OSU tournaments, if they even happened. I'm kind of surprised that we didn't go to them if they did, unless it was just supposed to be a local Columbus-area tournament.

Anyway, back to the topic, when Beavercreek was pretty dominant in the early-to-mid 1990's, a guy named Daniel Schepler was the main reason for this, and while this expertise wouldn't translate well into quizbowl, he did make both the national math team and the national physics team.

Jeff was a very good player, but Brandon Eilertson was unstoppable on history questions (along with several other subjects)... I am not mistaken when I saw he was by far the best player in Ohio during the 1997-1999 years.

Quote:

According to this link: http://www.naqt.com/stats/school-hosted.jsp?org_id=1152 The old OSU team, before it fell into obscurity and inactivity in the early/mid 2000s, hosted a tournament using NAQT questions all the way back in 2001, and then another in 2003. I'd love to see the results for those tournaments, to see who was playing in the some of the first TU/B tournaments in Ohio.

I forgot, I was the #4 scorer actually at the OSU NAQT tournament in 2001 and I actually have most of the packets from that set (which looking back would make A-sets look hard). We did not attend the 2003 one as far as I can remember. Jeff ran that 2001 tournament as the head of the OSU team.

I know this is a year later, but I was thinking about this last night and had a few thoughts. When considering older eras, different styles of play, etc I think of a metric that is commonly used to compare players between the ABA and the NBA, namely how valuable were these players to their teams' success and what are comparable skills and strengths? It is one thing to take up a playing time slot, it is another to push your team to the next level.

A few people that instantly come to mind as being future candidates for the "as soon as they surpass the five-year rule" list would be Arjun Venkataraman, Brianna Prislipsky, Scott Remer, and Michael Coates.

One thing that really sets Arjun apart from the 2012-2014 time frame is that Arjun did not come from an established program or walk in the footsteps of a quiz bowl prodigy. Dublin Scioto, with respect to Coach Hayes and Arjun, wasn't a program that had any quiz bowl tradition at the regional and state level, at least in recent memory. Arjun was one of the best science players I got to play against, but he was a very strong generalist in his own right as well. His knowledge base was very extensive across most disciplines and he had exceptional depth in sciences, geography, and literature. While the "one man team" claim isn't considered to be respectful, for objectivity's sake, he was basically Scioto's squad up until the latter part of his senior year when his supporting cast of Koh, Wooju, et al stepped up. I'm fully convinced that if he had played on a Thomas Jefferson S&T (VA) or a Maggie Walker (VA), or a similarly caliber program, he would have a national title to his name. One final thing about Arjun is that he was pretty incredible at TV "quiz bowl" as well.

Brianna Prislipsky I mention namely for her dominance in the Youngstown area along with some of her performances at various invitationals. In terms of her dominant subject - literature, she was untouchable in that domain by roughly 95% of the quiz bowl competition in Ohio. Perhaps the most remarkable aspect of her quiz bowl career was how strong she was in literature her sophomore year, so strong that she earned a spot on the NASAT squad for that season. Without a doubt, her name and quiz bowl legacy of dominance in the Mahoning Valley will not be forgotten. The only counterargument I can assume would be the fact South Range never was in contention for a state title, and it is hard to look at SR under the magnifying glass during that time since I don't think they ever did the OAC tournament at regional and consequently state. Nevertheless, her legacy I think is best renowned for her dominance in her area and her subject matter at the various tournaments across Ohio. Plus, once again, she made NASAT as a sophomore.

I was mildly surprised that no one mentioned Scott Remer of Beachwood. I guess the real notable thing about Scott is that he won a national title (SSNCT equivalent). I really don't know much else about him, but I know when he played it too was a "one man team" deal. Is he one of the greatest of all time? Probably not, however I think the fact he won a national title would be enough to at least get his name on a list of noteworthy Ohio quiz bowlers.

Michael Coates from Warren Harding also is a pretty notable quiz bowler that would be worthy to get inducted into this hypothetical class. NAQT State champion. Most of Michael's hs career accolades speak for itself, but even more notable is the fact that, like Arjun, Warren Harding really came to the surface of the competitive quiz bowl scene in part to his skill.

This second post is namely for some more historical context. The following names I'm throwing out to either give some context if they were already mentioned or I'm acknowledging people that may or may not be HoF worthy, but are worth mentioning. Most, if not all, of the following has an anecdotal aspect since I hear of these tales and "legends" through Mike Sedlack, so fair warning.

For Fisher...

Mike always conveyed to me how dominant Sarah Hickman was in literature and arts when she played. I know that she was playing HS quiz bowl in a different era, and while I'm sure Mike is as cognizant as anyone about that difference, he would never bring up the topic of era when discussing her... just that she was the best lit player Fisher ever had. To me, that signifies her play would transcend any change in time-frame or format, style etc And I damn well believe Mike on that one. My overall impression from what Mike would tell me about her was that she'd be an elite lit player by today's standards in American and British lit, because I always had heard of her prowess in poetry, short stories, and canonical high school literature in general. I think the only pyramidal tournament she probably even played in was Battle of the Burgh VI in which a Hickman captained-Fisher beat a State College team that would place fifth at HSNCT a few months later.

Despite the fact he's the more recent of Fisher's three "quiz bowl legends" in the aught's (2000's), I really don't know a whole lot about Jake Snider other than the fact he apparently was born for the game of quiz bowl and was very eclectic in his knowledge base, with a particular specialty in biological science? I know he was really good, don't get me wrong. I know his senior year they beat Ottawa Hills x2 at NAQT State (the year they won SSNCT equivalent), had a second place individual finish scoring at NAQT state and captained Fisher to two out-of-state tournament championships at Parkersburg Catholic & Battle of the Burgh XII. When I get a free minute to see and hold a conversation with Mike, I'll have to ask more about Jake's legacy. My general impression has been that he has a case for being the best player in Fisher's history if you consider that he had a very strong knowledge base in the topics he knew along with the fact he was able to roll with (and perform quite well) the changes in the broader quizbowl landscape in Ohio when he played; if I'm correct, when he first started OAC was still really big in Ohio and he was good enough to excel in any format, any question style especially toward the end of his career. My understanding and best guess is that had he played today, he would be a very solid player in his own right, but his bread may have been buttered more had he played in the era when OAC was very prominent and was the preferred format of the majority.

Steven Wellstead's career is probably the most illustrious of the three given the two OAC titles he were a part of and an NAQT State title. Most impressions I've gotten from reading up and talking to Mike is that Steven would've done well regardless of any era, and Steven's success across virtually every format he played is testament to that. Certainly an elite player of his time, although it is worth mentioning he did have a pretty strong supporting cast back when he played.

Perhaps Steven or someone else can fill in some gaps about players such as Kyle Rainier, the Kennedys, etc

Not-necessarily Fisher related but according to Mike, Ridgewood HS (Coshocton County) had a very strong player they encountered in SEOQL league play "a long time ago" (my guess is late 90's, early 2000's) by the name of "Dave" that was an incredible player. The way he described this player, it would almost seem like he would clean up any and every question, maybe until the very end in some cases but still an incredible player in his own right. Mike described to me that he was certainly the best player hands-down in the league (so this is probably in the 90's if that is the case), but was the epitome of a one-man show. If I recall Mike's story correctly, the only thing that had kept Ridgewood from winning a league trophy was when they faced Fisher in the finals. Fisher didn't have anyone that was comparable to Dave, but they had a balanced team with equally strong contributions from all four players that could nab questions left and right to the point that Dave was his own worst enemy; by the time Fisher had taken and sustained the lead in this game he had been so consumed in frustration toward his teammates that Fisher won handily. I tell this story not to self-promote old quiz bowl glory, but to point out that this guy was apparently very good but ended up being a victim of over-production.

Sarah Hickman WAS really good at lit in that era. The teams with Steven/Kyle/their also competent teammates were really balanced and it was almost as if none of them were superstars but played incredibly well together. Once the team graduated and Steven was left as the lone guy remaining, he then showed just how good he really was.

I actually forgot about Scott Remer - problem was, he was awesome in 11th-12th grade, and those were two of the years that I really didn't read at many tournaments... when I did, I didn't read for them. The year that I briefly helped out at Beachwood, he was still in 8th grade.

Yes, Sarah was excellent. For my last couple years it was a constantly back and forth rivalry between our teams. She was nearly unstoppable at arts and lit which happened to be our Achilles Heel.* We could consistently beat her at science or history. Distribution was often the deciding factor in who won. As often as she prevailed over us my junior year I'm glad that we had the upper hand my senior year in the most important events to us (ITK, Regionals, and State)

* I've said that a true sign of how far the game has come in the last 12 years is that my team won the state title despite being bad at literature and average at best at fine arts. You just can't do that anymore. It helped that OAC had so much history/geography/current events so it played right into my strengths. My teammates could then beat most other Ohio players at any science or math.

Regarding the players Tom mentioned in his first post, I have seen them all play and they were/all amazing players. From that 2010-11 group, I would also add Sohan Vartak's name. That year's Olmsted Falls team was truly a great team, winning OAC and falling victim to the storm of deep and eclectic knowledge that was Lizzie Beam for an upset loss in the prelims. Each member of the team had their categories, and they all covered them well, but anchoring it all was Sohan who had incredibly deep knowledge of Mythology, Science and some areas of literature (he was near unstoppable on Japanese literature questions). And that's just his senior year; the year before he was a very talented 2nd scorer behind Jim Coury on an Olmsted Falls team that won a state title in probably the most competitive year in recent Ohio QB history. He was a really great player who covered his areas as well as you can expect anyone, and to top it off he's a super cool dude.

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