whidbey:RoyBatty: whidbey: I should "congratulate" myself on what a rigid hardline right-winger you are?I don't think so.Also, most of what's in my profile is actually mainstream, and widely accepted by rational people. Yes, I suspect that this probably makes you mad.

Yeah go find some hard right wing views of mine that many if not most prominent liberals don't also support. I'll be waiting.

"Let the UN take the lead in international crises."

We know what you were doing during Rwanda, don't we?

Do you have any idea how long after Rwanda that statement was made?

It's criticism directed at our centers of power. You should be agreeing with it.

"Let the UN take the lead in international crises."

If you look at our illegal unconstitutional support of the UN action in Libya, you would understand that your proposal is meaningless.

I would be honestly interested in seeing how many liberals agree that the US should "Accept the jurisdiction of the International Criminal Court and the World Court" after they have been given an explanation of why we don't. Regardless of views on Iraq or Afghanistan, I find it hard to believe that a majority of liberals nevertheless would cede jurisdiction to the ICC and World Court.

At the same time, "Give up the Security Council veto" this is another statement I find difficult to believe a majority of liberals would agree with.

If you look at our illegal unconstitutional support of the UN action in Libya, you would understand that your proposal is meaningless.

Actually, no it isn't. It's criticism directed at the Security Council, which is made up of the most powerful, and notably, the most destructive countries on the planet. The sentiment suggests that they need to share the power they have, particularly in the cases of countries like the US who profess to have "a decent respect for the opinion of mankind."

I find it hard to believe that a majority of liberals nevertheless would cede jurisdiction to the ICC and World Court.

At the same time, "Give up the Security Council veto" this is another statement I find difficult to believe a majority of liberals would agree with.

whidbey:Actually, no it isn't. It's criticism directed at the Security Council, which is made up of the most powerful, and notably, the most destructive countries on the planet. The sentiment suggests that they need to share the power they have, particularly in the cases of countries like the US who profess to have "a decent respect for the opinion of mankind."

Well then I don't understand what you are suggesting -- It's pretty late for me and I'm debugging a stupid program.

Lotta professional level DERP in here, and I am enough of a masochist to try and fix that.

Here comes the history. Israel was indisputably owned by the Jews and there were no territorial questions. You can move a boarder a few miles here or there, but for the most part, its well known. To say otherwise is to deny archeology.

The Romans come in and fight the Jews. The Jews don't give up easily, and when the Roman army gets really pissed over this, they send in an overwhelming force to crush Jewish opposition. Then they get bloodthirsty, and perform genocide. The real kind. The population is devastated because most people were either murdered, or sold into slavery.

Rome falls because of Christianity, and the Eastern Empire continues to exist. There were crusades, holy wars, etc. The Ottoman Empire comes out with possession of Israel. This is up to WWI when the Central Powers lose, and the British take over Israel. The British realize after WWII that they can't maintain their empire anymore, and split their Middle East areas into a few nations. They split Mesopotamia into Iraq and Kuwait, and they split Palestine into 2 parts. One is for Jews and the other for Arabs. The Arabs get Jordan, and the Jews get attacked by all their neighbors. After the Israeli War of Independence, you ended up with a lot of displaced Arabs from the war they started.

So, the Arabs did get their land. Its Jordan. Besides, we never sold our land to the Romans. The Arabs just came and squatted.

Oh my, they spray painted a monastery! The article tells me that the writing says "Jesus is a monkey" and that "The monks appeared very offended by the incident."

I hope they survived the incident.

The Rise of Settler Terrorism: The West Bank's Other Violent ExtremistsForeign Affairs, August 2012http://www.foreignaffairs.com/articles/137825/daniel-byman-and-natan- s achs/the-rise-of-settler-terrorism

Rome didn't fall because of the adoption of a national, monotheistic religion by the Emperor. It fell because of numerous factors - a massive, war-based economy that was rife with corruption, the borders of the nation far outstretching the ability for it to communicate and defend, economic and agricultural failures, and coordinated and numerous attacks on it's major cities by the "savages" outside of Rome - the Huns, vandals, visigoths, and the ostogoths.

Dow Jones and the Temple of Doom:fredklein: RanDomino: fredkleinSo, why don't "the Palestinians" have their government use it's military (or, heck, just police force) to go after the "various splinter militia groups" that are stirring things up? Stop them from causing trouble, and the Israeli government won't have to retaliate.

Why is Israeli "forced" to retaliate?

You would have them get hit by missiles and do nothing? Have people die, and do nothing? Stand there and take it and ... do absolutely nothing??

Pretty much. You're dealing with extremely irrational people here

I know. But it's fun asking them a simple, easily answered question (whose honest answer would reveal them for who/what they are), and watch them... not answer it.

Rome didn't fall because of the adoption of a national, monotheistic religion by the Emperor. It fell because of numerous factors - a massive, war-based economy that was rife with corruption, the borders of the nation far outstretching the ability for it to communicate and defend, economic and agricultural failures, and coordinated and numerous attacks on it's major cities by the "savages" outside of Rome - the Huns, vandals, visigoths, and the ostogoths.

Funny how everything you mentioned happened after Marcus Aurelius died. You have to admit that changing the culture of a nation affects it in a fundamental way. Look at the Eastern Empire. They didn't adopt Christianity, and lasted for hundreds of years longer than Rome.

Amos Quito:As you read the above, you must remember that liam76 reserves the right to lie through his teeth use "artistic license" when he speaks of other Farkers and what they may or may not believe.

Innat right, liam76.

Me calling you out on your BS theories on Jews and Zionists doesn't mean I lie, also me catching you slipping up and forgetting your "dogwhistle" of zionists when blaming the holocaust on jews doesn't mean I lie.

As for Ran's comments, here is the link where he compares Palestenian terrorists to the ETA. Do you need me to break down the body count for you to?

Diogenes The Cynic:Funny how everything you mentioned happened after Marcus Aurelius died. You have to admit that changing the culture of a nation affects it in a fundamental way. Look at the Eastern Empire. They didn't adopt Christianity, and lasted for hundreds of years longer than Rome.

It was happening LONG before the adoption of Christianity. While the adoption of Christianity, and the forcefulness of such resulted in the discontent and alienation of the native peoples they had assimilated, it was multiple factors including that which lead to the fall. One of the main reasons was the rampant corruption of the Military and Political Officials, coupled with the uncontrolled inflation and currency problems.

fredkleinYou would have them get hit by missiles and do nothing? Have people die, and do nothing? Stand there and take it and ... do absolutely nothing??

If it means fewer dead in the long run? Hell yes.Now tell me why Israel is allowed to have that doctrine, but not Palestinians. Why can deescalation only come from Palestinians?

OnlyM3Palestinian youths in jeans are ready to let fly stones from homemade slings at Israeli soldiersislamists attack, and a Jewish person has the audacity to defend themselves and they are wrong for doing so. How dare they not line up quietly like last time.

Oh my god, slingshots. Some of them might cause bruises that could last for days. Will the suffering never cease?

StreetlightInTheGhettoBut how they can't see that marginalizing and demonizing an entire group of people under your control as far as blockades, roadchecks, etc. goes is going to create *more* radicals and is going to be *less* likely to lead to peace

The ones responsible for these things aren't interested in peace.

Standard DeviantLots of anti-colonial Americans on Fark, living the good life in America. I guess you should find a country that never colonized anywhere so you can stay above the dirty fray.

150-200 years ago was when those crimes were. To punish anyone alive today is sins of the father. The Israeli ethnic cleansing and theft of Palestinian land is going on right now and the people perpetrating it are still alive, as are the specific individuals who were/are victims of that theft.

No wonder pro-Zionists love to talk about "nations" as if they were giant hive-minds. Makes it harder to pin their crimes on anyone specific and justifies collective punishment.

Oh_Enough_AlreadyNearly subhuman murderers

There's no reasoning with a person who thinks like this.

Diogenes The CynicSo, the Arabs did get their land.

There is no such thing as "The Arabs" or "The Jews". There are individuals. Everyone who was a victim or perpetrator of anything that happened thousands of years ago is DEAD.

RanDomino:fredkleinYou would have them get hit by missiles and do nothing? Have people die, and do nothing? Stand there and take it and ... do absolutely nothing??

If it means fewer dead in the long run? Hell yes.

It doesn't mean fewer dead.

How farking stupid are you?

hamas isn't going to hit soem magic number of dead Israeli's then call it a day. They will keep killing until there are no more jews or somebody stops them.

But as has already been established you don't think the death of Israeli civilians is the same as the death of civilians from other places, but I am still waiting for your explination on why they are have a lower value.

BronyMedic:Diogenes The Cynic: Funny how everything you mentioned happened after Marcus Aurelius died. You have to admit that changing the culture of a nation affects it in a fundamental way. Look at the Eastern Empire. They didn't adopt Christianity, and lasted for hundreds of years longer than Rome.

It was happening LONG before the adoption of Christianity. While the adoption of Christianity, and the forcefulness of such resulted in the discontent and alienation of the native peoples they had assimilated, it was multiple factors including that which lead to the fall. One of the main reasons was the rampant corruption of the Military and Political Officials, coupled with the uncontrolled inflation and currency problems.

Fair enough. I'll concede to multiple factors, with this one not being a primary one.

Haha, no no. Those guys were Turks. Totally different group of people, although they must all be "brown people" to you. The Arabs didn't begin wandering in in any large numbers until about 1850. I don't know the exact numbers, but many of the Arabs living in Israel proper, the other half of Jerusalem, Gaza, and the West Bank came in from Jordan only within the last 3 generations or so. Heck, they still travel by Jordanian passports.

Moreover, they came into existing cities. Its probably lost on you, but I know Hebrew fairly well, and a few other Semitic languages moderately well, so when I hear the name of a town in the West Bank with a Hebrew name, I still jolt. Bethlehem means "house of bread", the sale of Hevron is clearly spelled out in the Bible in the same portion where Sarah dies. Jerico, has been continously inhabited, and Nablus is where Shechem used to be.

I May Be Crazy But...:PunGent: Because People in power are Stupid: doyner: Because People in power are Stupid: So they're splashing them with Eu Du Palestinien.[25.media.tumblr.com image 500x276]

Maybe next time they're offered peace they wouldn't detonate a bomb in Jerusalem.

Yes, because it really is that simple.

Considering that the Israeli's are replying with Non-Lethal force is much better than what the Palestinians would do were the situation reversed.

Kriggerel: It's so refreshing to see anti-semitism back in vogue. I was starting to get worried that it had permanently gone out of style... After all, it was so hopelessly gauche for over sixty years!

Anti-Israel /= anti-Semitic.

Or, to put it another way, a friend supports you;

A GOOD friend tells you when he thinks you're making a mistake.

Isn't the line that a friend helps you move but a good friend helps you move a body? I think you've got it wrong.

And an even better friend keeps you out of the situation where you have to move a body in the first place. The trick, of course, is being able to distinguish helpful criticism from simple spite...not always easy.

RoyBatty:StreetlightInTheGhetto: It's easy to do, of course. Especially when you can easily get supplies and money in and out of your territory.http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blockade_of_the_Gaza_Strip/yeah , I know html//but you're too lazy to Google, so I'm too lazy to type a href

Sure. From your same link, some how, mysteriously, Israel allows Hamas to have a police force. No one knows why Hamas police can't stop rocket attacks from the parking lots of apartment buildings or hospitals.

Poor Hamas! Leave Hamas alone!

Even most Palestinians think Hamas is evil. And yet, they prefer them to the people WE bankroll over there. Think about that for a minute.

<b><a href="http://www.fark.com/comments/7304882/79133434#c79133434" target="_blank">Friction8r</a>:</b> <i>As an impressionable child in 1972, I remember the Olympics in Munich. From that point on, screw 'em. Israelis are industriou and prosperous, and oh yeah - civilized. If the tables were turned, the Palestinians would be full of bloodlust. Stinky goo - deal with it or become peaceful neighbors.</i>

Yep, Munich was an atrocity.The problem is current Israeli policies seem, to me, to be making MORE terrorists. Or, at least, not farking helping.

Thanks for the snark. My notes on you are correct, tea party apologist and troll.

And you just jumped about 800 years in a few sentences. Time sure flies, in your head.

I'm glad that other Pro-Israelis are smarter than you... because your quasi-religious argument for a Jewish homeland is exactly that -a quasi religious argument. It's not convincing to nonbelievers because it requires belief in Moses, the "chosen people", Ham's curse and biased ie fake archeology.

If you really are going to go back centuries to claim some sort of religious ownership of Israel -then what is to stop someone from making a similar argument about America. That is, that it belongs to the natives -not the people who live here now, but the natives.

A simpler argument and a much more powerful one is that Israel already exists so get over it. ie Stop trying to remove her. Appeals to religion, ancient prophesy, or modern warfare are not convincing arguments to people who are looking for any ridiculous reason to deny Israel's right to exist.

Aigoo:SubBass49: Aigoo: doyner: Because People in power are Stupid: So they're splashing them with Eu Du Palestinien.[25.media.tumblr.com image 500x276]

Maybe next time they're offered peace they wouldn't detonate a bomb in Jerusalem.

Yes, because it really is that simple.

Yes, genius, it really is.

Two wars - 1948 and 1967. The Arabs (since Palestine is a region that dates back to Ancient Egypt and covers both Arab lands and the entirety of Israel, making even Israelis Palestinians. Try reading a history book or twelve) lost both of them. The land belongs to Israel by right of conquest. If you deny the right of conquest of Israel, you must also deny the right of conquest of the various nations of Asia, Europe, and North and South America as well. In other words, I am certain that my Sioux and Cherokee relatives would be delighted to have back the land that actually was literally stolen from them, which the Arab lands in the Palestinian region most certainly were not - they were lost "fair and square" in two separate wars.

If "might makes right" for Asia, Europe, and the United States, there can be no double standard for Israel. If you wish to demand that Israel give back the land they won in war, you must first demand your own nation does likewise. If you are not prepared to demand that of your own nation, then you may not make that demand of Israel. Yes, it really is that farking simple.

Ah yes, the "right of conquest." And here I thought that the human race had matured a bit since the days of colonialism. Apparently not. Carry on.

Why do people fight wars? Basically, it's over money; we know that. But what generates money? Land, people, and power.

Sure, they fight them over religion, but that goes straight back to power and money and we all know it.

If you want to be a farktard and imply that basic statement regarding conquest is about the maturity of the human race, then by all means, show your continued lack of understanding regarding the basic nature of wh ...

Entire argument, prima facie, predicated on myth. Dismissed.

Oh... and on your way out, please understand that I pretty much can't stand "the other side" of this little religious argument either.

doyner:Because People in power are Stupid: doyner: Well, unlike Israel, we did a far more effective job of committing genocide.

Sure there was genocide attempted against the Jews by Palestinians (and others.) But let's just pretend that the Palestinian ties to the land are correct. What is your proposal to deal with the people who live there now?

And Americans really weren't "that good" at genocide. I don't even think that there is a holy book that says that our wars against the natives were ordained by God.Why there are Natives still here. Why not just give them their land back?

Isn't that what you are proposing with Israel?

You do realize that disagreeing with one side does not necessarily mean agreement with the other, right? .

Thanks for the snark. My notes on you are correct, tea party apologist and troll.

And you just jumped about 800 years in a few sentences. Time sure flies, in your head.

I'm glad that other Pro-Israelis are smarter than you... because your quasi-religious argument for a Jewish homeland is exactly that -a quasi religious argument. It's not convincing to nonbelievers because it requires belief in Moses, the "chosen people", Ham's curse and biased ie fake archeology.

If you really are going to go back centuries to claim some sort of religious ownership of Israel -then what is to stop someone from making a similar argument about America. That is, that it belongs to the natives -not the people who live here now, but the natives.

A simpler argument and a much more powerful one is that Israel already exists so get over it. ie Stop trying to remove her. Appeals to religion, ancient prophesy, or modern warfare are not convincing arguments to people who are looking for any ridiculous reason to deny Israel's right to exist.

Don't take this the wrong way, but fark you for calling me a tea partier. I never have been, or ever will be a conservative because I have a fully functioning brain. If you want to stick any philosophy onto me, you can call me a classical liberal.

Also, it did seem as if you conflated Arabs and Turks up above. You had that snark coming.

As far as the religious aspect of my argument goes, you can take it or leave it. I am an Orthodox Jew, and I do believe in the Bible. But even if you don't, you'll still realize the Romans did attack us, and sell us into slavery. They themselves wrote about it. Out of the 4 times the Romans lost their silver eagle standards (Carrhae, Cannae, Teutoborg) one was in Israel when a legion was ambushed and completely wiped out. Its in their records.

You can't deny the historical proofs from outside of the Bible is what I'm saying. If you want to see the borders of Israel, you can find the places they have found prutas (cheap coins) and if you want proof they actually exist, you can buy them off of ebay. And its not like we went in and built our Temple out from under their mosque. That would be an absurd position. They came in later. The years of construction are well documented. Place names haven't been changed for hundreds of years, and it can be proven through ancient maps. Are you going to deny that Jerusalem isn't where it always was? That Bethlehem changed its place? That Jericho was a convenient name for a city that inexplicably had damaged walls?

America does belong to the natives. It was stolen. Are you going to deny that?

As to what we should to with the Arabs, remains a pretty good question. We can't just send them back home because they would be slaughtered. For all the hyperbole about "the evil Joos" committing genocide, ethnic cleansing, what have you, the other Arabs wouldn't hesitate to commit honest to G-d genocide. They've tried it before a few times in the refugee camps in their own countries. So these people got to have their own country, contiguous borders, etc. I see land-swaps as the one viable option.

RanDomino:fredkleinYou would have them get hit by missiles and do nothing? Have people die, and do nothing? Stand there and take it and ... do absolutely nothing??

If it means fewer dead in the long run? Hell yes.

Please explain how can allowing deaths... lead to fewer deaths? Should the police allow mass murderers to roam freely, in order to reduce the number of deaths?? Should the USA have allowed Osama to continue terrorist activities... to reduce deaths??

Now tell me why Israel is allowed to have that doctrine, but not Palestinians. Why can deescalation only come from Palestinians?

If Israel tries to stop the loop (by not shooting back), then the loop sticks at 1, and they just get more missiles thrown at them. The only way to truly stop it is to stop it at 1- not throw missiles at Israel to begin with.

fredkleinPlease explain how can allowing deaths... lead to fewer deaths?

Stop giving them something to want revenge over. If the Palestinians are allowed to have a vibrant economy (imagine an oil pipeline from Saudi Arabia to Gaza), they'll spend their time and money buying cars and forget all about the holy war.

Because they are the ones who start the cycle.If Israel tries to stop the loop (by not shooting back), then the loop sticks at 1, and they just get more missiles thrown at them.

Palestinians are just violent because it's their nature, right? No other reason at all? They just hate Jews because of genetics! Of course, it's so obvious. Living under a crushing military occupation has nothing to do with it. I mean, if I was living in fear and humiliating conditions with no real rights or hope, I certainly wouldn't be upset at all, personally.

RanDomino:Stop giving them something to want revenge over. If the Palestinians are allowed to have a vibrant economy (imagine an oil pipeline from Saudi Arabia to Gaza), they'll spend their time and money buying cars and forget all about the holy war.

You might want to check ont he economic status in Palesstien compared to the surrounding muslim countries.

Pay particular attantion to just prior to the second intafada and prior to the Gaza pullout. they did have a good, and growing economy. They shut off the possibility of working in Israel with the second intafada, and they crippled their economic growth after the Gaza pullout by trashing instead of using the stuff left behind and by decidng to use the removal of settlers as an excuse to start showering rockets.

RanDomino:Palestinians are just violent because it's their nature, right? No other reason at all?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Israeli%E2%80%93Palestinian_conflict#Pal e stinian_incitement"...the official Palestinian Authority Mufti in Jerusalem publicly read out an Islamic hadith that says killing Jews will speed up the redemption...""Following the Itamar massacre and a bombing in Jerusalem, 27 US senators sent a letter requesting the US Secretary of State to identify the administration's steps to end Palestinian incitement to violence against Jews and Israel that was occurring within the "Palestinian media, mosques and schools, and even by individuals or institutions affiliated with the Palestinian Authority.""(Oh, and itamar?- "The Itamar attack,... was an attack on a Jewish family in the Israeli settlement of Itamar in the West Bank that took place on 11 March 2011, in which five members of the same family were murdered in their beds....Amjad Awad and Hakim Awad, two young Palestinian men from the village of Awarta, were arrested for the murders. ...they initially denied any involvement in the attack but later proudly confessed to the killings, expressed no remorse and reenacted the attack before security officials.")"Media watchdog, Palestinian Media Watch (PMW), reported in June 2012 that the Palestinian media continually demonizes Israel and Jews and derogates Jewish history. They stated that the Palestinian children are being taught hatred and violence against Jews and Israelis and that only 7 percent of Palestinian teenagers accept Israel's right to exist.""Children in a Gaza kindergarten were dressed up in uniforms of the armed wing of the Palestinian Islamic Jihad organisation. They received a toy rifles and chanted anti-Israeli slogans.""a children's magazine sponsored by the Palestinian Authority that commended Hitler's killing of Jews"