EJarendee has been uninhibitedly bashing INFJ's. He is someone who believes in Socionics which considers the INFJ personality type to be utterly worthless. He also personally feels that the INFJ type is not even suitable for a man.
He said and I quote "If I were an INFJ I would give you my left nut and I would suck your balls"

When EJarendee speaks on the negative qualities or stereotypes of INFJ's he will sound aggressive and be extremely critical. For example in an early video he describes the differences between the INFJ and the INTJ. In that video he talks about how INFJ's are inclined to believe in absurd conspiracies. He speaks of it like he considers it to be a very serious flaw in a person. In a recent video in which he describes the differences between INFJ's and ENFJ's he bashes INFJ's for the so called lazy stereotype which is exaggerated to an extreme in Socionics where INFJ's are almost incapable of being productive as humans. In that video he could barely hold in his anger.

This may sound trivial and insignificant but this will rub off on the entire MBTI community. Most of the MBTI community watches his videos. Everyone that searches their personality on youtube will immediately find his videos. He is the spokesperson for the entire MBTI community and is a very negative influence to that community. He has over 2,000 subscribers and has over 450,000 views on his youtube channel.

This deucebag is also promoting Socionics which is a system designed by the Communist Soviet Union in order to categorize humans for the communist system according to usefulness. In Socionics they strip the Idealist quality of INFJ's. Socionics is basically a bastardized form of MBTI. The reason he likes Socionics is because it promotes ESTP's as being this incredible personality type.

He is an issue.. especially considering that MBTI is growing in popularity. Which means when MBTI goes mainstream you will have EJarendee with a ton of subscribers(millions) just bashing personality types and associating unrelated things to types like in a recent video he mentioned that all INFP's watch anime porn and on his website he says INFP's are likely to develop weird fetishes which will inevitably cause bullying and disgust for INFP's. The entire mbti youtube community i.e the people who post youtube videos about MBTI consider this guy to be disrespectful,immature and insensitive. They all hate him but they wont admit it. When EJarendee talk about the negative qualities of other personality types he is more careful/respectful whether it be the ENTJ or the ENFP this is because he respects those types. But when he speaks on the negative qualities on the INFJ its more critical and aggressive. He has said many times that the INFJ personality type is not a serious personality type (Meaning he does not take INFJ's seriously and he does not respect them)

The worst thing that could happen is Socionics becoming part of everyday culture.

In the near future MBTI will be pretty much known by everyone. It will have cultural implications and there will be stereotypes and typism. You will have to check in your type to get a job since Socionic/MBTI will be taken so seriously. You will literally have companies and businesses that will only hire certain types. That was the original goal of the people that created Socionics. It was to be implement into society. You will have parents desiring specific personality types for their children. Desiring types like ENTJ's and ENTP's who are seen as more useful and superior in Socionics. In the end the INFJ will be carrying the useless/lazy stereotype by society. The INFJ type will be viewed as undesirable. INFJ's will act like other types to mask themselves. The natural partners to the INFJ is the ENTP and ENFP and they will both decide that the INTJ is a more suitable partner because INFJ's will have such a devastating stigma associated with them. Then no more will the world of MBTI be a comforting place for INFJ's. You will very soon notice a change in the air within the actual current mbti community. For example people of other types dismissing/underestimating the capacity/capability of INFJ's to succeed and be of any large scale influence to society and this was all started by EJarendee who on his site called ArendeePsych has portrayed INFJ's as being incapable of actually accomplishing their goals. EJarendee will lead the MBTI community with millions of subscribers. He will have the most popular MBTI channel. He will use his channel to heavily promote Socionics upon millions of people and this will have long term negative effects.

INFJ's and INFP's will be even more isolated within society. Do not underestimate the natural cruelty of society. When South Park made the ginger episode it caused a firestorm of bullying towards redheads. It became an almost instant reaction to that episode within cultures/countries that contain redheads. There is even a holiday associated with that episode and its called Kick a Ginger Day. There are thousands of children and teenagers being targeted because of their red hair. Do not underestimate how quickly these things can progress. We all know full well that there exist bullying on every level of human society. In the workplace.. at school.. in the military.. within our families

djarendee

23-04-14, 03:20 AM

You're wrong

Shaqie

23-04-14, 03:37 AM

Why care about someone's opinion on INFJ's? Why worry so much about types?

Barnabas

23-04-14, 08:22 AM

sooo.... this is obviously a post from a throw away account, which directly antagonizes another member... why is it still here?

Also who posted this, I get the feeling it's not a lurker, troll maybe though it feels a little personal.

muir

23-04-14, 09:47 AM

You're wrong

Can you explain how the poster is wrong?

maybe you could show some love for INFJ's?

The OP has a point about how psychiatry WAS used in the USSR as a way of hammering all people into line with the state which was very centrally controlled

INFJ's as independently minded people who are not only able to question things but also willing to speak up about them would be a threat to any form of centrally controlled system seeking to impose its modes of thinking and behaving on people

So....got any love for INFJ's?

o_q

23-04-14, 10:02 AM

There's a storm coming from one dude... This actually sounds like advertisement for the guy.
I'd say delete this thread, and we'll forget about both of you faggots.

muir

23-04-14, 11:08 AM

There's a storm coming from one dude... This actually sounds like advertisement for the guy.
I'd say delete this thread, and we'll forget about both of you faggots.

The OP is not far off the mark...INFJ's are a minority type and an often missunderstood type

They are also seen as a threat by those that seek to impose their will on others because INFJ's are big time trouble makers for them (i lead a trade union uprising in my work place and am currently in talks with the government concerning how they go about a certain thing)

So if you are an INFJ be ready for some serious discrimination or run off to the fringes of society and hide

Imo and experience the only people who are going to disagree with that are non INFJ's who cannot relate to the experience

This internet myth that seems to have flourished that INFJ's are some kind of rainbow spewing softies seems to get all EMO feeling people to self identify as INFJ leading to a lot of misstyping....it is all part of the move by the left brained side to undermine INFJ's and make them seem wishy washy and of no importance

INFJ's are not useless drift wood with their heads in the clouds paralysed by their own unicorny-ness...maybe when they are young and finding their feet, but once they know the game they are a different proposition

INFJ's are your ghandis, your jesus, your martin luther kings....when they come of age and get into gear over something they are bad-ass doers!

If you want to spot the INFJ's in the media look for the people who are quietly but clearly explaining how the system is fucking everyone over...there are lots of them if you look in the right places (i post their stuff here all the time)

Humanity has been getting screwed by the evil empire (left brained unbalanced force) for centuries...who do you think are the resistance? Who do you think are the scattered mystics...the jedi? Its the INFJ's

The evil empire knows it and uses all ther tools at its disposal to crush the INFJ's who have always been small in number

Why do you think imperialism (left brain dominant) has stamped out shamanism (right brain) all around the world?

Your religion was written upon tablets of stone by the iron finger of your God so that you could not forget. The Red Man could never comprehend or remember it. Our religion is the traditions of our ancestors — the dreams of our old men, given them in solemn hours of the night by the Great Spirit; and the visions of our sachems, and is written in the hearts of our people.-Chief Seattle

the

23-04-14, 11:46 AM

I think th mods are asleep at the wheel.

muir

23-04-14, 11:56 AM

I think th mods are asleep at the wheel.

Why?

LucyJr

23-04-14, 12:38 PM

Light
Hey, just don't make it so big, the thing with MBTI and Socionics.
You want my honest advice on it? Its a b.s. Its stupidity of people who think they can "type" the whole humanity, into 16 absurd types and sub-types, and temperaments and so on.
Typology is good just for the descriptive element, otherwise, it has no other worth. It doesn't give the real context, its just something descriptive, based on closed observation.
If you want to succesfuly develop yourself, just read alot, especialy the old guys, who knew something. I can asure you will laugh at typology and its pathetic premises and conclusions.
Just don't make it big...because there is nothing accurate and really good about it.

vandyke

23-04-14, 12:40 PM

Why should I care what some guy is saying? If socionics (never heard of it before) is becoming a thing and people start hating INFJ's, I'll just say I don't know what an INFJ is. If they make me take a test, I'll answer the opposite of what I really believe. Problem solved. If "socionics" really was a thing, it would be incredibly stupid and laughably impossible to execute.

... I love how this guy wrote that he was calling us gay as if it was a bad thing. I could not care less. It's like calling someone a banana. Terrifying and frightening, right?

the

23-04-14, 12:40 PM

Why?
For the reasons barnabas gave.

muir

23-04-14, 12:43 PM

@Light (http://www.infjs.com/member.php?u=10207)
Hey, just don't make it so big, the thing with MBTI and Socionics.
You want my honest advice on it? Its a b.s. Its stupidity of people who think they can "type" the whole humanity, into 16 absurd types and sub-types, and temperaments and so on.
Typology is good just for the descriptive element, otherwise, it has no other worth. It doesn't give the real context, its just something descriptive, based on closed observation.
If you want to succesfuly develop yourself, just read alot, especialy the old guys, who knew something. I can asure you will laugh at typology and its pathetic premises and conclusions.
Just don't make it big...because there is nothing accurate and really good about it.

I disagree

I think MBTI has spotted discearnable patterns in humanity...sure its not set in stone....they are not neat bundles...people are more complex than that...but there are some truth in the generalisations

For example the first dichotomy: extroversion and introversion.....i think any introvert who has felt their energy sucked out of them by a very talkative extrovert will be able to testify that there is some truth in that generalisation

There is something in MBTI

muir

23-04-14, 12:44 PM

For the reasons barnabas gave.

Why shouldn't the OP call into question the video clips someone is making public?

muir

23-04-14, 12:44 PM

Why should I care what some guy is saying? If socionics (never heard of it before) is becoming a thing and people start hating INFJ's, I'll just say I don't know what an INFJ is. If they make me take a test, I'll answer the opposite of what I really believe. Problem solved. If "socionics" really was a thing, it would be incredibly stupid and laughably impossible to execute.

... I love how this guy wrote that he was calling us gay as if it was a bad thing. I could not care less. It's like calling someone a banana. Terrifying and frightening, right?

Do we really want to live in a world where we have to hide?

o_q

23-04-14, 12:48 PM

The OP is not far off the mark...INFJ's are a minority type and an often missunderstood type

They are also seen as a threat by those that seek to impose their will on others because INFJ's are big time trouble makers for them (i lead a trade union uprising in my work place and am currently in talks with the government concerning how they go about a certain thing)

So if you are an INFJ be ready for some serious discrimination or run off to the fringes of society and hide

Imo and experience the only people who are going to disagree with that are non INFJ's who cannot relate to the experience

This internet myth that seems to have flourished that INFJ's are some kind of rainbow spewing softies seems to get all EMO feeling people to self identify as INFJ leading to a lot of misstyping....it is all part of the move by the left brained side to undermine INFJ's and make them seem wishy washy and of no importance

INFJ's are not useless drift wood with their heads in the clouds paralysed by their own unicorny-ness...maybe when they are young and finding their feet, but once they know the game they are a different proposition

INFJ's are your ghandis, your jesus, your martin luther kings....when they come of age and get into gear over something they are bad-ass doers!

If you want to spot the INFJ's in the media look for the people who are quietly but clearly explaining how the system is fucking everyone over...there are lots of them if you look in the right places (i post their stuff here all the time)

Humanity has been getting screwed by the evil empire (left brained unbalanced force) for centuries...who do you think are the resistance? Who do you think are the scattered mystics...the jedi? Its the INFJ's

The evil empire knows it and uses all ther tools at its disposal to crush the INFJ's who have always been small in number

Why do you think imperialism (left brain dominant) has stamped out shamanism (right brain) all around the world?

Your religion was written upon tablets of stone by the iron finger of your God so that you could not forget. The Red Man could never comprehend or remember it. Our religion is the traditions of our ancestors — the dreams of our old men, given them in solemn hours of the night by the Great Spirit; and the visions of our sachems, and is written in the hearts of our people.-Chief Seattle

TL;DR
so you are the throw away account

invisible

23-04-14, 12:49 PM

the OP appears to present a great deal of conjecture.

muir

23-04-14, 12:53 PM

TL;DR
so you are the throw away account

No i am what i say i am

There have been discussions about this guy and his posts about INFJ's already on this forum...i'm just trying to find them now

muir

23-04-14, 12:54 PM

the OP appears to present a great deal of conjecture.

I guess we would need to look at the clips made by djrandee about INFJ's to see how accurate the OP is?

muir

23-04-14, 12:58 PM

Ok here was one of the threads where djrandee tells us that INFJ's have no drive:

http://www.infjs.com/forums/showthread.php?t=23688

I'll find the other thread...

invisible

23-04-14, 01:02 PM

I guess we would need to look at the clips made by djrandee about INFJ's to see how accurate the OP is?

there are many unverifiable remarks made in the OP, particularly about the future implications of the videos mentioned, and also concerning the future in general. these remarks are conjecture.

invisible

23-04-14, 01:05 PM

if this is a throwaway as it appears to be its such a shame about wasting the sweet username. its kind of menacing, and in the right hands it could be so cool.

muir

23-04-14, 01:07 PM

there are many unverifiable remarks made in the OP, particularly about the future implications of the videos mentioned, and also concerning the future in general. these remarks are conjecture.

I'm not going to write-off the product of this guys intuitive framework

From what i know and have seen there are some valid points being made in the OP; they also tie into previous discussions made on the forum about discrimination against INFJ's for example discussions on the 'extrovert ideal' in our culture

I know for a fact that the USSR did accuse detractors of the state of havign psychological problems; our own western governments are now doing the same. They are using their DSM categorisation scheme to create new disorders, one of which is Oppositional Defiant Disorder (ODD)

Basically if you get upset when the government makes big changes they will class you as ODD and use that as a justification to lock you up without trial and drug you into submission

INFJ's are in the firing line for such treatment

Have you heard the saying about hammering down the nail that sticks out? Or cutting off the head of the flower that stands out etc

vandyke

23-04-14, 01:38 PM

Do we really want to live in a world where we have to hide?

With all due respect - you don't know what it's like to hide. I do. The reason I was so flippant is because this is phony baloney. This is a gag. It's definitely not a thing. Not even close to a thing. Don't talk to me about having to hide, I know hiding.

muir

23-04-14, 01:48 PM

With all due respect - you don't know what it's like to hide. I do. The reason I was so flippant is because this is phony baloney. This is a gag. It's definitely not a thing. Not even close to a thing. Don't talk to me about having to hide, I know hiding.

With all due respect you know nothing about me

You don't need to see me as an enemy.....i'm not your enemy

Read my posts...i'm the guy saying people should be free to do whatever they want to do as long as they are not hurting anyone else

Ok.....when that line in the sand is drawn and the people who want to persecute you are on one side and the people who will stand up for your rights are on your side...i'm on your side....please don't lose sight of that

So just as MBTI draws these lines in the sand eg between extroverts and introverts there are other dichotomies at work in our society which also tie into MBTI

One of the most significant of these is a left v's right brain dichotomy. In MBTI this might be described loosely as abstract v's concrete thinking

However if we expand on it we see that it manifests many ways. So the left brain is all about order and rigid, regimentalism and categorisation and quantifying things while the right brain is more about creativity, connectivity and sponteneity and so on

There are people who are very left brain dominant and they want to structure our world in a very systematised way that will undermine the essence of our humanity

All those aspects like creativity, abstraction, fun, exploration, sponteneity....all the things that are oxygen for our society, the left brain dominants want to choke off

Imagine a grey, beaurocratic world where everyones every action is guided by guidelines and you will get the picture

Horatio

23-04-14, 01:51 PM

I fart in this thread's general direction.

https://www.wow247.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/2013/11/French-gif-1.gif

muir

23-04-14, 02:09 PM

I fart in this thread's general direction.

https://www.wow247.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/2013/11/French-gif-1.gif

Imo and experience the only people who are going to disagree with that are non INFJ's who cannot relate to the experience

.

Horatio

23-04-14, 02:19 PM

Well, I guess it's a good thing I can relate to the experience.

Ass.

muir

23-04-14, 02:22 PM

Well, I guess it's a good thing I can relate to the experience.

Ass.

Perhaps you could explain it?

muir

23-04-14, 02:42 PM

I can't find the other thread in which i disagreed with a video of djrandee's...perhaps it has been deleted

Jimmers

23-04-14, 02:59 PM

Typological type should not = self worth

All of us are more than a pile of cognitive functions.

muir

23-04-14, 03:07 PM

Typological type should not = self worth

All of us are more than a pile of cognitive functions.

This has got nothing to do with 'self worth'

Look...if a group of extroverts want to impose their control over others they can create a social or cultural norm...lets call it the 'extrovert ideal'...they can also create a norm that they pay doctors to enforce by penalising anyone who doesn't conform to that norm

NOTHING to do with self worth EVERYTHING to do with freedom from persecution

muir

23-04-14, 03:12 PM

This forum is full of people complaining about the system or their work place or their debt or their bosses or any number of problems about our world

Well who shapes our world?

This article has been posted before (i'm pretty sure it was by @say what (http://www.infjs.com/member.php?u=10252) )

Surprise, surprise: the more self-motivated and driven you are, the more money you'll make.

If you spent a lot of time on the Internet as a teen, you’ve taken approximately a bajillion personality tests. At least one was probably the hugely popular Myers-Briggs Type Indicator (http://www.mbticomplete.com/), which sorts people into 16 different groups with 4-letter names.
The test, based off of Jungian psychiatry and developed by mother-daughter author duo Katharine Cooks Briggs and Isabelle Myers Briggs in 1962, is supposed to tell you if you are introverted or extraverted, intuitive or sensing, thinking or feeling and perceptive or judgmental. Each combination–INFJ or ESTP, for example–is representative of different characteristics, behaviors and preferences.
The types can then be divided into four groups: artisans, guardians, idealists and rationalists.
http://timenewsfeed.files.wordpress.com/2013/11/screen-shot-2013-11-05-at-5-21-23-pm.png?w=753 (http://timenewsfeed.files.wordpress.com/2013/11/screen-shot-2013-11-05-at-5-21-23-pm.png) Web Talent, careerassessmentsite.com

Career Assessment Site (http://careerassessmentsite.com/mbti-personality-types-socioeconomic-infographic/), maintained by Jonathan Bollag, recently published an in-depth infographic that shows exactly how much money different personality types will likely make in their lives.
http://timenewsfeed.files.wordpress.com/2013/11/screen-shot-2013-11-05-at-4-05-42-pm.png?w=753 (http://timenewsfeed.files.wordpress.com/2013/11/screen-shot-2013-11-05-at-4-05-42-pm.png) Web Talent, careerassessmentsite.com

Unsurprisingly it’s ENTJs, who are known to be outgoing, self-motivated, driven and competitive, who earn the highest household income by a landslide, averaging over $80,000 per household. Meanwhile the artistic crowd, like shy and emotional INFPs, are the lowest earners, averaging around $60,000.
You can see the full Myers-Briggs infographic here (http://careerassessmentsite.com/mbti-personality-types-socioeconomic-infographic/).
Correction: The link to the Myers-Briggs Type Indicator test has been modified to link to mbticomplete.com.

Our society has an "extrovert ideal," even though nearly one half of Americans are introverts, says Susan Cain in her book Quiet: The Power of Introverts. (http://www.amazon.com/Quiet-Power-Introverts-World-Talking/dp/0307352145)
The biggest misconception is that introverts are "inherently antisocial" and shy, but that's untrue. In fact, many of the most successful people are introverts, including President Obama and Twitter and Square Founder Jack Dorsey (http://www.businessinsider.com/can-jack-dorsey-be-mayor-of-new-york-2013-3). "They have so many strengths," says Cain, a self-described introvert who wrote her popular TED talk in a week (http://www.businessinsider.com/susan-cain-ted-talk-2013-3).
The most powerful combination, Cain says, is when extroverts and introverts collaborate. Together they're like "a yin and a yang."
We sat down with Cain to learn about her research and how our society would be better off creating workplaces that do a better job drawing on the strengths of introverts:

To see video about the role of big business in the creation of the extrovert ideal use the link above

LucyJr

23-04-14, 03:45 PM

I disagree

I think MBTI has spotted discearnable patterns in humanity...sure its not set in stone....they are not neat bundles...people are more complex than that...but there are some truth in the generalisations

For example the first dichotomy: extroversion and introversion.....i think any introvert who has felt their energy sucked out of them by a very talkative extrovert will be able to testify that there is some truth in that generalisation

There is something in MBTI
Seriously, MBTI for me is nothing. Is just silly. Socionics is with more weight in it, but its still silly.
Its value for me is just descriptive. It is a observation, and then they writte down the information.
It has not a single value in any scientific and realistic sense. There are just some observation, and even those observations, are not from a objective point, are biased.
As for the extrovertion and introvertion thing, again for me its just a excuse for why groups of people acts in certain ways. What alot of b.s. Beofre these absurd "scientific" theories, people were much more simple and open with eachother.
Now we make arguments of what type is supposed to get with another.

muir

23-04-14, 03:56 PM

Seriously, MBTI for me is nothing. Is just silly. Socionics is with more weight in it, but its still silly.
Its value for me is just descriptive. It is a observation, and then they writte down the information.
It has not a single value in any scientific and realistic sense. There are just some observation, and even those observations, are not from a objective point, are biased.
As for the extrovertion and introvertion thing, again for me its just a excuse for why groups of people acts in certain ways. What alot of b.s. Beofre these absurd "scientific" theories, people were much more simple and open with eachother.
Now we make arguments of what type is supposed to get with another.

I think it can be used by the corporations in their psychometric testing as it is to discriminate against certain types over who they hire and don't hire but it can also be used by people in general to gain a greater understanding of the diversity between people

If you know why someone is a certain way then you can potentially be a little more tolerant of them

Carl Jung who noticed many of these patterns interviewed thousands of people over his lifetime...that gives a massive sample base so in scientific terms that does add some credibility to his views

I think living in denial about things like introversion and extroversion will not improve relations between people

Growing up i didn't know about these things and tried to fit into the extrovert ideal...i wish i had known about this stuff sooner

I think MBTI can be used to make people more comfortable in their own skin

However i do wonder what people who don't believe in MBTI hope to get from an MBTI forum?

Jimmers

23-04-14, 03:58 PM

Seriously, MBTI for me is nothing. Is just silly. Socionics is with more weight in it, but its still silly.
Its value for me is just descriptive. It is a observation, and then they writte down the information.
It has not a single value in any scientific and realistic sense. There are just some observation, and even those observations, are not from a objective point, are biased.
As for the extrovertion and introvertion thing, again for me its just a excuse for why groups of people acts in certain ways. What alot of b.s. Beofre these absurd "scientific" theories, people were much more simple and open with eachother.
Now we make arguments of what type is supposed to get with another.

Thank you!!!!

First of all, people take Jung way too seriously. Second, they are taking pseudoscientific claims about personality in general, and then using that to justify a way to treat human beings based on their "type". It then becomes a battle based on false pretenses. Of course, don't be speak such blasphemies in an MBTI forum. That's like saying that Jesus was just a man in church.

I liked MBTI better when I answered 20 questions, got a type with a cute little picture of a person holding a paint brush, or a test tube, or a picture of a person wiping a baby's behind.

New Dawn Fades

23-04-14, 04:00 PM

Sounds like a big exaggerated conspiracy theory. Of course, there is some truth in it, but the conclusions drawn out of the facts are simply pathetic and angsty.

muir

23-04-14, 04:05 PM

Thank you!!!!

First of all, people take Jung way too seriously.

That's your opinion...backed up by no evidence

Jung had a large sample base...whats your evidence?

Second, they are taking pseudoscientific claims about personality in general, and then using that to justify a way to treat human beings based on their "type". It then becomes a battle based on false pretenses. Of course, don't be speak such blasphemies in an MBTI forum. That's like saying that Jesus was just a man in church.

It's actually me who is arguing here against persecution based on type

I liked MBTI better when I answered 20 questions, got a type with a cute little picture of a person holding a paint brush, or a test tube, or a picture of a person wiping a baby's behind.

Do you believe that some people are energised by being around others whislt some need to recharge after being around others?

muir

23-04-14, 04:05 PM

Sounds like a big exaggerated conspiracy theory. Of course, there is some truth in it, but the conclusions drawn out of the facts are simply pathetic and angsty.

What is a conspiracy theory?

What conclusions are you talking about?

New Dawn Fades

23-04-14, 04:13 PM

What is a conspiracy theory?

What conclusions are you talking about?

For me it's like a conspiracy theory... You have some facts and make a big tragic story out of them.

And concerning the conclusions I was talking about... Firstly, in this one video that was posted I didn't see any bashing of INFJs. EJarendee was just talking about our inferior function, and (if you believe in the MBTI theory, which I have to assume now) this is really something most of us INFJs have to develop. I didn't see any judgement in this video. But even if there was such a video being offensive towards INFJs, or even if all socionics-believers think that INFJs are losers, doesn't have to mean that we'll end up in a society ridden by hatred towards Idealists or INFJs. There is really a big gap between the facts and the dystopian vision that one can draw out of them.

say what

23-04-14, 04:16 PM

This forum is full of people complaining about the system or their work place or their debt or their bosses or any number of problems about our world

Well who shapes our world?

This article has been posted before (i'm pretty sure it was by @say what (http://www.infjs.com/member.php?u=10252) )

Surprise, surprise: the more self-motivated and driven you are, the more money you'll make.

If you spent a lot of time on the Internet as a teen, you’ve taken approximately a bajillion personality tests. At least one was probably the hugely popular Myers-Briggs Type Indicator (http://www.mbticomplete.com/), which sorts people into 16 different groups with 4-letter names.
The test, based off of Jungian psychiatry and developed by mother-daughter author duo Katharine Cooks Briggs and Isabelle Myers Briggs in 1962, is supposed to tell you if you are introverted or extraverted, intuitive or sensing, thinking or feeling and perceptive or judgmental. Each combination–INFJ or ESTP, for example–is representative of different characteristics, behaviors and preferences.
The types can then be divided into four groups: artisans, guardians, idealists and rationalists.
http://timenewsfeed.files.wordpress.com/2013/11/screen-shot-2013-11-05-at-5-21-23-pm.png?w=753 (http://timenewsfeed.files.wordpress.com/2013/11/screen-shot-2013-11-05-at-5-21-23-pm.png) Web Talent, careerassessmentsite.com

Career Assessment Site (http://careerassessmentsite.com/mbti-personality-types-socioeconomic-infographic/), maintained by Jonathan Bollag, recently published an in-depth infographic that shows exactly how much money different personality types will likely make in their lives.
http://timenewsfeed.files.wordpress.com/2013/11/screen-shot-2013-11-05-at-4-05-42-pm.png?w=753 (http://timenewsfeed.files.wordpress.com/2013/11/screen-shot-2013-11-05-at-4-05-42-pm.png) Web Talent, careerassessmentsite.com

Unsurprisingly it’s ENTJs, who are known to be outgoing, self-motivated, driven and competitive, who earn the highest household income by a landslide, averaging over $80,000 per household. Meanwhile the artistic crowd, like shy and emotional INFPs, are the lowest earners, averaging around $60,000.
You can see the full Myers-Briggs infographic here (http://careerassessmentsite.com/mbti-personality-types-socioeconomic-infographic/).
Correction: The link to the Myers-Briggs Type Indicator test has been modified to link to mbticomplete.com.

Interesting! Pay is often associated with education, and the education as a whole seem rather low... I wonder if this is more the fact that tradtional education doesn't lend well to certain personalities!

muir

23-04-14, 04:24 PM

For me it's like a conspiracy theory... You have some facts and make a big tragic story out of them.

What facts are you talking about....what conspiracy are you talking about....you are being very vague

Look if you have an issue with something i've said then tell me what the thing is otherwise it just sounds like a general grumble

And concerning the conclusions I was talking about... Firstly, in this one video that was posted I didn't see any bashing of INFJs.

The OP has siad he has seen videos this guy has said about INFJ's....i personally have seen videos this guy has posted here where he is telling INFJ's how INFJ's are except he gets it wrong

Unfortunately i can't find the key thread i'm thinking of (my back posts only go to 20 pages) and i think the thread might have been deleted

EJarendee was just talking about our inferior function, and (if you believe in the MBTI theory, which I have to assume now) this is really something most of us INFJs have to develop. I didn't see any judgement in this video. But even if there was such a video being offensive towards INFJs, or even if all socionics-believers think that INFJs are losers, doesn't have to mean that we'll end up in a society ridden by hatred towards Idealists or INFJs. There is really a big gap between the facts and the dystopian vision that one can draw out of them.

Concerning his videos...don't you think you should watch more before you make a judgement?

Concerning what i'm saying about a backlash against INFJ's it is tying into what the OP is saying for example about socionics

The centrally controlled state in the USSR DID use psychometric testing as a way to weed out people who were potentially divergent from the wishes of the state so the OP has a point. It also ties into what i have heard about the new ODD disorder in the west

If you want to know the role psychology plays in shaping our society i strongly recommend the documentary by BBC journalist Adam Curtis called 'the century of the self' which can be found online

I think if you aren't willing to watch such things and potentially expand your understanding then i think you might want to reconsider accusing people of making up theories because you won't know whether they are theories or not

muir

23-04-14, 04:27 PM

Interesting! Pay is often associated with education, and the education as a whole seem rather low... I wonder if this is more the fact that tradtional education doesn't lend well to certain personalities!

Was it you that first posted that?

say what

23-04-14, 04:34 PM

Was it you that first posted that?

I haven't seen this before- so I don't think it was me! But I have posted things on job recruitment and job advancement and MBTI!

I think these are interesting stats, and I do think that the job market and education more are more favourable to certain personalities, which is unfortunate.

I'm super surprised at the average education - it seems so low. An undergrad is almost a norm now! I wonder what would happen if this same survey selected individuals with an undergrad - would you find that certain personalities types are more represented? What happens once they graduate, if you control for discipline variations, would we still see certain personalities making less?

Income is an interesting thing to look at, because SO many things impact it - job, education, race, gender, age, health....it's interesting to think about how MBTI could be a potentially new variable that influences income!

LucyJr

23-04-14, 04:41 PM

I think it can be used by the corporations in their psychometric testing as it is to discriminate against certain types over who they hire and don't hire but it can also be used by people in general to gain a greater understanding of the diversity between people

If you know why someone is a certain way then you can potentially be a little more tolerant of them

Carl Jung who noticed many of these patterns interviewed thousands of people over his lifetime...that gives a massive sample base so in scientific terms that does add some credibility to his views

I think living in denial about things like introversion and extroversion will not improve relations between people

Growing up i didn't know about these things and tried to fit into the extrovert ideal...i wish i had known about this stuff sooner

I think MBTI can be used to make people more comfortable in their own skin

However i do wonder what people who don't believe in MBTI hope to get from an MBTI forum?
Hey man, take it slower :D
I am at the current position because I come to understand some things, by reading alot of stuffs. I am gone give you a few of them:
1. INFJs are known in the history either as: a) melancholics (in this category also INTJs are) and b) idealistic dreamers (or just dreamers)
2. Intuition is not something special and magic...its usualy mean in history "contemplation", or "meditation". Check Plato, Aristotle, Begson, Leibniz, and see how clearly and beautifuly explained what intuition means, compared to...Jung. Who was really off the mark when he said Introverted Intuition is a "Voice", and the mother of all wonders and bla bla bla.
3. Ti and Te is usualy known as...logic...or common sense. So again, there is nothing special about it...every person in this world, unless is not mentaly faulty, can learn to use it efficiently.
4. Se means ...practicality, relying on "first-hand" information. Nothink big and special again, nothing "scientific" about it..

So yeah, what I'm trying to say is that people, for a long time, already knew most of the psychological "discoveries", in lay man terms, not in tricky words.

I think MBTI can be used to make people more comfortable in their own skin
possibly yes. The bad thing is that it makes them too confortable sometimes, and that's not a good thing in my opinion.

However i do wonder what people who don't believe in MBTI hope to get from an MBTI forum?
Its a good life learning experience...especialy if you go into that place twice...

LucyJr

23-04-14, 04:45 PM

Thank you!!!!

First of all, people take Jung way too seriously. Second, they are taking pseudoscientific claims about personality in general, and then using that to justify a way to treat human beings based on their "type". It then becomes a battle based on false pretenses. Of course, don't be speak such blasphemies in an MBTI forum. That's like saying that Jesus was just a man in church.

I liked MBTI better when I answered 20 questions, got a type with a cute little picture of a person holding a paint brush, or a test tube, or a picture of a person wiping a baby's behind.
Psychology is not science at all...it is pseudo-science, or...junk(Jung?) science.
If you check the history of psychology, you'll see how many absurdities they had made, starting from the temperamental theory(Hypocrate), to oedipus complex in Freud's theory.

muir

23-04-14, 04:47 PM

Hey man, take it slower :D
I am at the current position because I come to understand some things, by reading alot of stuffs. I am gone give you a few of them:
1. INFJs are known in the history either as: a) melancholics (in this category also INTJs are) and b) idealistic dreamers (or just dreamers)
2. Intuition is not something special and magic...its usualy mean in history "contemplation", or "meditation". Check Plato, Aristotle, Begson, Leibniz, and see how clearly and beautifuly explained what intuition means, compared to...Jung. Who was really off the mark when he said Introverted Intuition is a "Voice", and the mother of all wonders and bla bla bla.
3. Ti and Te is usualy known as...logic...or common sense. So again, there is nothing special about it...every person in this world, unless is not mentaly faulty, can learn to use it efficiently.
4. Se means ...practicality, relying on "first-hand" information. Nothink big and special again, nothing "scientific" about it..

So yeah, what I'm trying to say is that people, for a long time, already knew most of the psychological "discoveries", in lay man terms, not in tricky words.

possibly yes. The bad thing is that it makes them too confortable sometimes, and that's not a good thing in my opinion.

Its a good life learning experience...especialy if you go into that place twice...

Concerning the alchemy of cognitive functions.....if the product is special then the alchemy is 'special'

Try to quanitfy intuition...you'll find it is an ephemeral and yet powerful thing

If you don't know what the nature of reality is....how can you know what the limits of intuition are?

Psychology works on samples....jung had a large sample base....that gives it some scientific credibility

More people have done research on these things since

If you believe in extroverts and introverts then you are already on the same path as Jung

New Dawn Fades

23-04-14, 04:50 PM

What facts are you talking about....what conspiracy are you talking about....you are being very vague

Look if you have an issue with something i've said then tell me what the thing is otherwise it just sounds like a general grumble

I don't have an issue with what you've said, it's more about the first post in this thread. And I explained the facts and the conclusions in my last thread. If this isn't clear enough, I can still show you the passages in the first post that I think are exaggerated, but I don't particularly like puzzling such tiny details.

The OP has siad he has seen videos this guy has said about INFJ's....i personally have seen videos this guy has posted here where he is telling INFJ's how INFJ's are except he gets it wrong

Unfortunately i can't find the key thread i'm thinking of (my back posts only go to 20 pages) and i think the thread might have been deleted

Concerning his videos...don't you think you should watch more before you make a judgement?

Actually, I did watch a lot of them. Maybe I didn't watch the particular ones you talked about, the ones that are supposedly offensive towards INFJs. But as I already said, even if there are such videos and even if EJarendee doesn't have a high opinion of INFJs, this doesn't mean that our society will develop in the same direction.

Concerning what i'm saying about a backlash against INFJ's it is tying into what the OP is saying for example about socionics

The centrally controlled state in the USSR DID use psychometric testing as a way to weed out people who were potentially divergent from the wishes of the state so the OP has a point. It also ties into what i have heard about the new ODD disorder in the west

If you want to know the role psychology plays in shaping our society i strongly recommend the documentary by BBC journalist Adam Curtis called 'the century of the self' which can be found online

Yes, I understand what you mean. I don't want to understate the significance of that UDSSR socionics thing. I just mean that in my experience (could be that you have had a different experience), socionics isn't such a big thing in comparison to MBTI. I don't say that it's completely irrelevant, but as I've experienced it there are far more people who know something about MBTI than about socionics. Actually, I don't know what it's like in other cultures today, I live in Western culture and don't have enough information about the others. But in my environment - in my experience - I cannot see that coming storm against INFJs. Most of the people that I know don't even know about MBTI, let alone socionics, and 99% of the people who know about it don't have anything against INFJs, INFPs or whatever. There are always some people who are ignorant about certain things, there is for example much bias concerning the S/N dichotomy, but this is not the majority. As I said, there is certainly some truth in the first post, I never said anything else. But I think it's exaggerated.

muir

23-04-14, 04:51 PM

Psychology is not science at all...it is pseudo-science, or...junk(Jung?) science.
If you check the history of psychology, you'll see how many absurdities they had made, starting from the temperamental theory(Hypocrate), to oedipus complex in Freud's theory.

There is logic and there is abstraction....which one will find the answers to our reality?

Should either write off the other?

muir

23-04-14, 04:56 PM

I don't have an issue with what you've said, it's more about the first post in this thread. And I explained the facts and the conclusions in my last thread. If this isn't clear enough, I can still show you the passages in the first post that I think are exaggerated, but I don't particularly like puzzling such tiny details.

Actually, I did watch a lot of them. Maybe I didn't watch the particular ones you talked about, the ones that are supposedly offensive towards INFJs. But as I already said, even if there are such videos and even if EJarendee doesn't have a high opinion of INFJs, this doesn't mean that our society will develop in the same direction.

Yes, I understand what you mean. I don't want to understate the significance of that UDSSR socionics thing. I just mean that in my experience (could be that you have had a different experience), socionics isn't such a big thing in comparison to MBTI. I don't say that it's completely irrelevant, but as I've experienced it there are far more people who know something about MBTI than about socionics. Actually, I don't know what it's like in other cultures today, I live in Western culture and don't have enough information about the others. But in my environment - in my experience - I cannot see that coming storm against INFJs. Most of the people that I know don't even know about MBTI, let alone socionics, and 99% of the people who know about it don't have anything against INFJs, INFPs or whatever. There are always some people who are ignorant about certain things, there is for example much bias concerning the S/N dichotomy, but this is not the majority. As I said, there is certainly some truth in the first post, I never said anything else. But I think it's exaggerated.

Here's a post i made in another related thread looking at the wider implications of all this (eg psychometric testing)

Sadly there is a void of understanding in our society due to engineered ignorance

There most certainly IS a bias agaisnt introversion

Further to this it is part of a coherent policy formulated by people in power due to the influence of pervasive schools of thought such as the Frankfurt School

This group came out of nazi germany across to the US and was studying the psychology of society and of authority

After the second world war our leaders conducted the biggest psychological study the world had seen due to their concerns over a number of things. One concern was over how the vast majority of troops coming home unfit for service where not coming back due to physical injury but mental injury.

Of course the elites denied the various psychological effects of warfare on people for example denying 'shell shock' during WWI even going as far as shooting young lads (who had lied about their age to join up) for desertion

In the second wiorld war they denied the existence of post traumatic stress disorder and in the recent gulf war (the first one) they denied the existence of gulf war syndrome (caused by injections they gave to their troops)

So this psychological study was conducted and the elites tried to figure out the best way to keep control of society. They believed due to the work of Sigmund Freud that beneath the veneer of civilisation was a boiling mess of violence just waiting to burst out (on them in revolutionary form)

If you are interested in this please don't take my opinion on it. A very good documentary by BBC journalist Adam Curtis covers this; its called 'The Century of the Self' and you can watch it here:

http://topdocumentaryfilms.com/the-century-of-the-self/

The result of this huge study was the creation of a categorisation system called the DSM which lists whatever the elites deem to be a 'disorder'

The importantn thing to bare in mind is that the agenda of the elites is not to keep everyone healthy and happy (cos if it were they would share the wealth around) the agenda of the elite is to keep everyone down and themselves on top.

So if they see behaviours which they deem a threat to their control for example they see people protesting for better safety conditions at work then they can deem the behavioural traits of that person(s) a 'disorder' and this gives them the ability under their own laws to then lock up that person and medicate them to shut them up

An example of this occuring was when the authorities locked up the writer Ezra Pound because he was speaking out against the elite that is running the banking system. Whilst incarcerated Pound (who edited and assisted with the works of famous writers such as T.S.Eliot and Ernst Hemingway) commissioned a man called Eustice Mullins to look into who runs the Federal reserve bank and therefore who is exerting massive influence over the US economy

Mullins can be heard speaking on youtube

The people who are running the Federal Reserve are also controlling the education system and the psychiatric system as well. They created the DSM system of categorisation. if you doubt this then use the incredible resource that is the internet and research it for yourself. A good place to start would be the Rockefeller family (eg Rockefeller foundation, Rockefeller university, london school of economics, standard oil, chase manhatten bank etc etc)

One trait that the elites have found occurs often in the people (and leaders of movements) who challenge the system is INTROVERSION

They are deeply threatened by introversion

This is why they have sought to make introversion and the behavioural traits associated with it as negative or as 'disorders'. They recently tried to expand the DSM categorisation to count shyness as a mental illness: http://www.bps.org.uk/news/dsm-5-shyness-mental-illness

So why is this a problem?

The problem is that they are creating a system in which many introverts don't feel they can be themselves (it becomes easier with age to resists that)

Further to that it gives them wide powers to suppress dissent to their rule

Why changes to the law that undermine civil liberties are dangerous for freedom lovers is because even if there isn't a problem initially then there might be one as the situation changes. An example of this would be:

The recent NDAA which authorised the detention without trial and torture of US citiznes by the military. That might be ok at the moment but what happens if the elites then change labour laws and insist on a 14 hour working day without holidays (like they did in the industrial revolution)? When people protest against that they can be called 'terrorists' and locked up or they can be deemed to have a 'mental disorder' and can be silenced with detention and medication

The NDAA has been opposed in court by the US journalist and INTROVERT Chris Hedges, among others. It has been blocked by Judge Forrest otherwie it would have come into being

So when people say things like 'there's no bias against introverts' or 'that's just introvert whining' then ask them if they have ever heard of the Frankfurt School and what they are about.

New Dawn Fades

23-04-14, 04:59 PM

Psychology is not science at all...it is pseudo-science, or...junk(Jung?) science.
If you check the history of psychology, you'll see how many absurdities they had made, starting from the temperamental theory(Hypocrate), to oedipus complex in Freud's theory.

I wouldn't consider Psychology as pseudo-science. You can find absurdities in the history of every science. The scientific method is crucial, and Psychology uses the scientific method in order to predict human behavior.
MBTI however can be considered as a pseudo-science, since the descriptions are rather vague and the theory of the Cognitive functions could never be proven to be right scientifically. It's the same with many other personality theories, except maybe Big Five which seems to be the most scientific of them all.

LucyJr

23-04-14, 05:01 PM

There is logic and there is abstraction....which one will find the answers to our reality?

Should either write off the other?
logic is abstract...

LucyJr

23-04-14, 05:05 PM

I wouldn't consider Psychology as pseudo-science. You can find absurdities in the history of every science. The scientific method is crucial, and Psychology uses the scientific method in order to predict human behavior.
MBTI however can be considered as a pseudo-science, since the descriptions are rather vague and the theory of the Cognitive functions could never be proven to be right scientifically. It's the same with many other personality theories, except maybe Big Five which seems to be the most scientific of them all.
psychology uses the "scientific method"? Althought I heard many to claim this, I thought they say it mostly as a hope, that "one day maybe" psychology would be some kind of science.
But at the actual state of affairs, I myself have to be CRAZY to think that psychology is science, or it has anything to do with "the scientific method". But this is just me and my opinion...the world is a big place.

New Dawn Fades

23-04-14, 05:08 PM

So when people say things like 'there's no bias against introverts' or 'that's just introvert whining' then ask them if they have ever heard of the Frankfurt School and what they are about.

I never said that there isn't a bias against introverts. There certainly is, and I guess all of us have experienced it at least once in their life. But this is society. There always is bias against something, and this won't change in the future. This is dangerous, of course, but it doesn't have that much to do with MBTI, I think. And bias changes over the time - maybe you know that Bestseller, "The Power of Introverts"? It's a sign that this introversion bias may be a subject to change in the future. Society is a collection of common biases. In the past, there was bias against black people, jewish people, whatever, now it's against introverts and other stuff. People will always have their prejudices. I don't think this is good, I'm not happy with the current state, but I think that this bias may disappear in the future like most of the others did, too, and be replaced with something different.

muir

23-04-14, 05:13 PM

logic is abstract...

I mean in the sense of:
difficult to understand; abstruse v's reasonable; to be expected

New Dawn Fades

23-04-14, 05:15 PM

psychology uses the "scientific method"? Althought I heard many to claim this, I thought they say it mostly as a hope, that "one day maybe" psychology would be some kind of science.
But at the actual state of affairs, I myself have to be CRAZY to think that psychology is science, or it has anything to do with "the scientific method". But this is just me and my opinion...the world is a big place.

Um.. what about statistics about humans is not scientific? Psychology uses data, statistics and experiments to draw conclusions, like the other sciences do, too. It's even empirical. Of course, you can't predict human behavior with 100% probablitly, but you can be pretty sure about most of it. And Psychology works in many ways like Medicine - it looks what does work against certain illnesses, and this works in many cases. The problem about Psychology is that we still don't know that much about the Human brain which makes it difficult to predict certain things. But as I said, the scientific method is important, and Psychology is using it.

muir

23-04-14, 05:18 PM

I never said that there isn't a bias against introverts. There certainly is, and I guess all of us have experienced it at least once in their life. But this is society. There always is bias against something, and this won't change in the future. This is dangerous, of course, but it doesn't have that much to do with MBTI, I think. And bias changes over the time - maybe you know that Bestseller, "The Power of Introverts"? It's a sign that this introversion bias may be a subject to change in the future. Society is a collection of common biases. In the past, there was bias against black people, jewish people, whatever, now it's against introverts and other stuff. People will always have their prejudices. I don't think this is good, I'm not happy with the current state, but I think that this bias may disappear in the future like most of the others did, too, and be replaced with something different.

Things are indeed in flux which is why people should never say ''that's just the way things are''

There are reasons for why things are the way they are

LucyJr

23-04-14, 05:21 PM

I mean in the sense of:
difficult to understand; abstruse v's reasonable; to be expected

Mind is abstract, information is abstract (except sensory information)...perception is abstract, and that includes intuition and logic.

LucyJr

23-04-14, 05:30 PM

Um.. what about statistics about humans is not scientific? Psychology uses data, statistics and experiments to draw conclusions, like the other sciences do, too. It's even empirical. Of course, you can't predict human behavior with 100% probablitly, but you can be pretty sure about most of it. And Psychology works in many ways like Medicine - it looks what does work against certain illnesses, and this works in many cases. The problem about Psychology is that we still don't know that much about the Human brain which makes it difficult to predict certain things. But as I said, the scientific method is important, and Psychology is using it.
In my understanding, there is nothing scientific about psychology.
Hovewer, if something si not scientific, it doesn't mean is bad or wrong. After all, what we're arguing here is not scientific...

With the distinction that psychology is not scientific, and there is nothing really known with certainty in this field, watching the history of psychology is really painful, to be honest. What can be said with certainty is this: psychology is descriptive, not prescritptive. And secondly, psychology often confuses the psyche of a man with his morality...which is really something very unprofessional and very inaccurate.

muir

23-04-14, 05:32 PM

Mind is abstract, information is abstract (except sensory information)...perception is abstract, and that includes intuition and logic.

djarendee
Hey, INFJs are not special. But neither ESTPs are.
So my honest advice is, get off the illusion.

muir

23-04-14, 05:45 PM

I saw empathetic vs detached...and it makes me cringe.

I have been debating with people of all MBTI types here for years...believe me those folks are out there

People do have preferences...natural leanings

LucyJr

23-04-14, 05:51 PM

I have been debating with people of all MBTI types here for years...believe me those folks are out there

People do have preferences...natural leanings
I agree, but those are not set in stones. A man learns as his life pass by, and at the end of his life, a INFJ might be not-so-INFJ at all.
What is very dangerous is that people take typology so seriously, and they make it something objective...which is not. Its just something descriptive, is a observation of the human behaviour, which can be puted into 16 supposed types.
As for morality, morality has nothing to do with types. A logical man can be just as empathetic as a intuitive one. And a intuitive type, can be just as devoided of anything good as Hitler...or as Stalin.

muir

23-04-14, 06:04 PM

I agree, but those are not set in stones. A man learns as his life pass by, and at the end of his life, a INFJ might be not-so-INFJ at all.
What is very dangerous is that people take typology so seriously, and they make it something objective...which is not. Its just something descriptive, is a observation of the human behaviour, which can be puted into 16 supposed types.
As for morality, morality has nothing to do with types. A logical man can be just as empathetic as a intuitive one. And a intuitive type, can be just as devoided of anything good as Hitler...or as Stalin.

Oh sure...i think the bad guys ARE intuitive but they recruit non intuitive people to do their bidding

There is stuff going on with the brain though...hard wired stuff; for example this clip shows how one side of the brain specialises in faces:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=82tlVcq6E7A

Concerning how fixed personality types are....i'm not going to come down hard on either side of that debate...people change in all sorts of ways.....but i don't know if the way they process information changes

What i will say though is that when i took a test that told me i was something called an 'INFJ' and then read the description it was spot on for my life upto that point even though i knew nothing about MBTI upto that point

I was an INFJ through and through before i took a test in my late 20's that told me i was an INFJ

To find it out was a powerful experience for me because it made a lot of sense about a lot of stuff i'd been through....it would have helped me to know earlier

I have heard other INFJ's say similar things here.....so i think that rather than people being affected by auto suggestion...i think there is something in MBTI. For me i'd say it goes back to when i was a kid

Now when i took the test i was aware of the barnum effect and was a far more skeptical person than i am now....i never trusted any sort of categorisations...i saw them as little better than superstition...like magazine horoscopes.....MBTI however...it hit the mark like nothing else

So i read all the other descriptions imediately keeping the barnum effect in mind and none of them fit me

Uncanny accuracy

muir

23-04-14, 06:09 PM

More of the left brain v's right brain dichotomy (there is a further dichotomy withint the brain between the older 'reptillian' brain and the newer 'mamallian' brain

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IB-xLoAFM4k

Jimmers

23-04-14, 06:10 PM

That's your opinion...backed up by no evidence

Jung had a large sample base...whats your evidence?

It's actually me who is arguing here against persecution based on type

Do you believe that some people are energised by being around others whislt some need to recharge after being around others?

I have no evidence. Sorry muir, I'm just feeling uber skeptical today. I need some sunshine.

flower

23-04-14, 06:14 PM

Everyone are special, precious and unique regardless of the type. OP makes it look a like someone is better than someone else because of the type.

muir

23-04-14, 06:23 PM

I have no evidence. Sorry muir, I'm just feeling uber skeptical today. I need some sunshine.

No worries man...i know the feeling

Look if someone had evidence that jung was talking out of his butt i'd be interested to hear it...you know?

My views aren't fixed but they have been moved into position by the info ive gained and experiences i've had. To move them again i need new info or experiences

The thing about Jung is he is easy to dismiss. For example formal science likes to measure things. But Jung liked abstract things like dreams. Well how the hell do you measure a dream? Sure you can measure brain activity and you can interview the person about it but there is no instrument that is called a 'dreamometer'

This leads some in formal science to poopoo dreams...but is that right to do that? I mean dreams are a big deal...they are experienced every night by millions of people. They have lead to new insights, new inventions, new religions and all sorts of things...they are a massive part of human experience

So surely someone smart needs to take them seriously? Well yeah...but the problem is that many scientists will not take that person seriously

So i have noticed a left brain/right brain thing going on with the people i debate with. It sometimes tranlates roughly to a feeling v's thinking thing

I am not saying one is better than the other...i'm saying they are both a part of each of us and part of us as a species. If we as a species play all day with our test tubes (maybe i should re-phrase that...it doesn't sound quite right!) and never talk about dreams are we not impoverishing ourselves as a society?

We need both parts of our brain...they are our heritage as a species

The danger comes when people of one preference begin to discriminate against the other

I can look at very left brained leaning people and see some good abilities and admire those abilities...but i can also look at some right brained leaning people and see some cool stuff too.....they are both part of the human experience and i think as a person i'd like to use the two sides in harmony

Imagine though if you were a person who wanted to control everyone else. You wanted them to follow your orders. What would be the most threatening thing to that? It would be original thought wouldn't it? Creativity...those are things you would want to discourage.....makes sense doesn't it? heck its even logical is it not?

muir

23-04-14, 06:25 PM

Everyone are special, precious and unique regardless of the type. OP makes it look a like someone is better than someone else because of the type.

Let's say hypothetically speaking that there is validity in MBTI and that as studies have shown the 16 types form different percentages of the population

lets say that the smallest group of the 16 processed information differently to the rest....they are going to potentially become targets of derision if people aren't raised in a culture that accepts diversity and sees that everyone has different strengths and things to bring to the mix

Well that's what is happening and i think a lot of INFJ's can end up a bit defensive

flower

23-04-14, 06:42 PM

Let's say hypothetically speaking that there is validity in MBTI and that as studies have shown the 16 types form different percentages of the population

lets say that the smallest group of the 16 processed information differently to the rest....they are going to potentially become targets of derision if people aren't raised in a culture that accepts diversity and sees that everyone has different strengths and things to bring to the mix

Well that's what is happening and i think a lot of INFJ's can end up a bit defensive

I do understand why INFJs would become defensive or anyone in that kind of situation. Who likes to be bullied? Who likes to be rejected? Ignored? Actually having tons of experience about that.

muir

23-04-14, 06:46 PM

I do understand why INFJs would become defensive or anyone in that kind of situation. Who likes to be bullied? Who likes to be rejected? Ignored? Actually having tons of experience about that.

Ok...so when we go to try and get jobs and we are made to do a psychometric test....what sort of people do you think the corporations are looking for?

Bullying is an issue...don't get me wrong....but i'm talking about a systemic persecution.....a moulding of society into a certain thing that is not favourable to INFJ's and other similar types

if a person is going to find their way in such a world it might help to understand these things so that if they didn't get a job they went for at a corporation they might not be too hard on themself and they might even begin to consider different career options or paths

flower

23-04-14, 07:17 PM

Ok...so when we go to try and get jobs and we are made to do a psychometric test....what sort of people do you think the corporations are looking for?

Bullying is an issue...don't get me wrong....but i'm talking about a systemic persecution.....a moulding of society into a certain thing that is not favourable to INFJ's and other similar types

if a person is going to find their way in such a world it might help to understand these things so that if they didn't get a job they went for at a corporation they might not be too hard on themself and they might even begin to consider different career options or paths

Of course I don't know much about what kind of people corporations are looking for but they are most likely searching something like: very extroverted, out-going, hard-working, intelligent, flexible, ambitious.. and plenty of other super human traits.

I mentioned bullying because OP mentioned too and this kind of persecution is (would be) bullying (if all the people in the world would be ignoring INFJs for who they are, because of their specific ''bad'' traits, especially if being INFJ = stamp to the forehead?).

Yes, I agree with your saying that anyone should use their own unique traits in their work places and there are plenty of different options to consider.

muir

23-04-14, 07:28 PM

Of course I don't know much about what kind of people corporations are looking for but they are most likely searching something like: very extroverted, out-going, hard-working, intelligent, flexible, ambitious.. and plenty of other super human traits.

I mentioned bullying because OP mentioned too and this kind of persecution is (would be) bullying (if all the people in the world would be ignoring INFJs for who they are, because of their specific ''bad'' traits, especially if being INFJ = stamp to the forehead?).

Yes, I agree with your saying that anyone should use their own unique traits in their work places and there are plenty of different options to consider.

I think that the OP is right about a number of things. I think some people don't need much encouragement to start hating on INFJ's

vandyke

23-04-14, 08:04 PM

With all due respect you know nothing about me

You don't need to see me as an enemy.....i'm not your enemy

You are though. You're filling peoples head with alarmist bullshit to get attention.

On the bright side, you've rekindled my love for Paul Simon's Think Too Much project with all of your right vs. left side of the brain baloney.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hR-WAfxOEKY

They say that the left side of the brain
Controls the right
They say that right side
Has to work hard all night
Maybe I think too much for my own good
Some people say so
Other people say, “No no
That fact is
You don’t think as much as you could”

I had a childhood that was mercifully brief
I grew up in a state of disbelief
I started to think too much
When I was twelve going on thirteen
Me and girls from St. Augustine
Up in the mezzanine
Thinking about God

Maybe I think too much
Maybe I think too much
Maybe I think too much
Maybe I think too much

muir

23-04-14, 08:20 PM

You are though. You're filling peoples head with alarmist bullshit to get attention.

On the bright side, you've rekindled my love for Paul Simon's Think Too Much project with all of your right vs. left side of the brain baloney.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hR-WAfxOEKY

They say that the left side of the brain
Controls the right
They say that right side
Has to work hard all night
Maybe I think too much for my own good
Some people say so
Other people say, “No no
That fact is
You don’t think as much as you could”

I had a childhood that was mercifully brief
I grew up in a state of disbelief
I started to think too much
When I was twelve going on thirteen
Me and girls from St. Augustine
Up in the mezzanine
Thinking about God

Maybe I think too much
Maybe I think too much
Maybe I think too much
Maybe I think too much

I didn't start the thread i just commented in it

if there is something i've posted you have disagreed with then why not debate that but don't single me out on a forum of people discussing various thing just because you don't like what i'm saying

If you don't like what i'm saying then ignore my posts...but don't criticise someone for telling the truth!

LucyJr

24-04-14, 06:13 PM

Part of why it may seem I'm going a little too far in turning away from socionics (I acknowledge that's possible) is that I haven't yet talked about the views that are taking the place of socionics in my mind. That's because I wanted to first do a methodical run-through of socionics before getting to my new perspectives, but it's going slow because I have almost no one to discuss it with these days. Hence this post, which is a kind of preview of my emerging ideas — "convictions," you might say — on phenomena previously described by socionics.

At this point, allowing myself to skip past some of the methodical stuff and cut to the chase will probably be useful to both me and my readers. Here are some of the main points in no particular order:

1. Identifying people as "the same type" is useful only when they have significant obvious similarities. I'm done with sticking highly sensitive or highly intelligent/creative/refined/whatever individuals into the same type as people with a completely different background and sensitivity just because they share some esoteric "information preferences." If other people don't see obvious parallels between two people, then calling them the same type does more harm than good (this conviction comes from personal experience).

2. This inevitably suggests a different set of types — either a similar number of types but with a much more uneven distribution, or a greater number of types. I personally don't care much anymore to name the types or create a consistent system such as socionics. However, identifying and describing the important common traits between two people I still find to be very worthwhile.

3. The brain is not organized into socionic functions the way socionics suggests. The contents of our ongoing stream of conscious mental activity cannot be categorized by socionic function. In other words, the majority of the time, you will not be able to clearly relate what you're thinking about — or how you're thinking about it — to some socionic category. Rather than trying to force a socionics categorization, I'm more interested in just letting the information speak for itself and kind of self-categorize based on principles of pragmatism.

3.1. I would find it interesting to go through some of the music we once examined (back in 2007) using socionics terminology and allow different kinds of categories to emerge from that exercise. The questions I would start out with are, "what effect does this music have on the listener, and what does this music say about the composer's personality and state(s) of mind, and possibly the culture in which he/she grew up in?" Along the way we might discover that some music is just "better" than other, that level of sophistication is just as important a factor as the "states of mind" we were trying to describe using socionics functions, or that we come up with a number of states worth describing that does not equal 8.

3.1.1. I almost forgot to acknowledge, however, that Jung's and Augusta's idea of dividing up thought processes and basic traits into co-equal mental functions is a powerful and liberating idea that teaches one to see the other side of things and identify possible alternatives to nearly any approach to anything. That makes for a very useful mental tool, even if the details are not strictly correct.

4. A result of point #3 is that interaction mostly does not occur on the basis of socionic functions. I believe that applying a general psychology/science perspective in examining specific cases brings one to different (simpler and better) conclusions than socionics about why people do or do not get along.

5.1. There is still something to functions and their impact on relationships. It's like they are bundles of values, but not actual mental processes or modules of information perception, processing, and output.

5.2. There is still something mysterious about why people who are so different can sometimes get along so well. What socionics has done, however, is to put complementary differences on a pedestal. For the most part, people hang out with people of similar personalities who — perhaps — differ from them in some more subtle (and perhaps simpler and physiologically definable) way than being "a completely different type."

6. Duality as described by Augusta is basically equivalent to falling in love. Remove the love, and duality is more mundane a phenomenon and barely preferable — on average — to other relationships. In modern culture, we expect and even require love for long-term relationships and generally prefer any relationship with love to one without it, regardless of the intertype relationship. There are good reasons for this coming from the logic of biological success.

6.1. Love does not obey the "laws" of intertype relations, and the idealizations that people project onto objects of passion do not necessarily come from the person's supposed Super-Id (dualizing) functions. That is, if you listen closely to what people want to have in an ideal partner — not just their conscious preferences but their emotional reactions to different people — I think you see that the preferences are 1) indeed significant and generally there for good reason; 2) not reducible to an "ideal dual"; and that 3) some people are [much] more universally desirable than others, and again, not because people are stupid and don't know what will make them happy, but because there are [nearly] universally positive and negative traits, habits, and life circumstances of great signifance to human interaction to which socionics is blind (see point #8).

6.1.1. It could be true that dual relations are more often magical than others. However, the fact that they tend to be described as magical feeds a tendency to see duals any time there is magic. Furthermore, a "magical" dual might have more in common with a "magical ___ type" than with a non-magical dual.

7. There do exist particularly potent combinations of people that socionics is unable to predict (because its model of the psyche is not just incomplete, but fundamentally incorrect). The cause of the potency is unknown to socionics but can be discovered on a case-by-case basis and then, perhaps, generalized into a set of patterns and general rules. I would speculate that these combinations are highly symbiotic on grounds that are more or less permanent (constitutional) rather than situational (e.g. your specific current needs complement the other person's). Such pairings are consistently able to elicit symmetrical positive emotions in each other. Why? I don't know, but I'm now quite confident it is not socionics.

7.1. People with more extreme traits may have different patterns of interpersonal compatibility than those with traits closer to the norm. In particular, they may experience incompatibility much more often and have greater unmet needs for understanding and connection. The causes of this are fairly straightforward and obvious and probably have little or nothing to do with socionics.

8. There are many very important universals that socionics is blind to. For instance, that some people are almost universally annoying while others are almost universally liked/admired. There are not 16 strategies of success, but rather just a handful, plus variations. People achieve success not only by relying on unique strengths, but also by developing universal qualities common to most varieties of success. Trying to follow a somewhat contrived and esoteric type-specific path to success seems to me generally less useful than working on improving the universals.

8.1. For the most part, our lives are dominated by universals — standard situations that would elicit similar reactions in most people. Socionics suggests the opposite.

8.1.1. However, there are definitely times when a person needs to focus on discovering and enhancing the individual and specific. Socionics can give some broad hints, but nothing more. So can other typologies. So can non-typological empirical psychology.

8.2. There are "better" and "worse" states to be in that are remarkably universal, but these states are hard to describe from a socionics perspective. "Type development" is a clumsy and unparsimonious way to describe it. Modern science now has a ton to say about what contributes to happiness and well-being, and research results don't obviously suggest a typological approach.

9. The territory that we each stake out in life and build our self-identities upon is mostly based on unconscious calculations of our probability of biological success in the various roles/niches we have tested or know of given our existing investments and available energy and resources. These roles are often continually changing as different actors come and go and resource allocation patterns (i.e. the economy) evolve, since these things affect our personal prospects. While there may be patterns in which personalities gravitate towards which kinds of roles, situational and non-typical factors are generally more important. Since our connections with people are to a large extent determined by these roles, the things that bring people together and create a bond are best described using non-socionic language because socionics plays a small part in it.

9.1. I think lasting interpersonal conflicts can be parsimoniously described as reflecting threats to self-identities, current roles, and biological success. If you are a sadist and want to cause people psychological pain, don't nerdily attack their hypothetical "point of least resistance"; instead, doubt their self-identity, jeopardize their current roles, and question their biological success.

- - - - - - - -

That's a glimpse of where my ideas are taking me.

Back to Augusta...

An important question I ask myself is, if things really are as I have suggested here, how can Augusta and so many followers have thought for so long that the system worked? I think that a key to the longevity of many not-quite-true (I don't mean that perjoratively) idea systems is their complexity. The structure and sophistication of systems of thought often have the effect of aweing their adherents. If the ideas are complex and extensive, they may take a very long time to prove or disprove. I, for one, only feel confident in calling socionics "inaccurate" as of the past 6 months.

A long-lived idea system must also be at least reasonably accurate at some level — or impossible to disprove. The fact that thinkers have been identifying types of people for millenia suggests that there is some basis for this approach. It is also plainly evident that different combinations of people are more or less compatible, and that once-established relationships and attitudes toward each other often last for a long time. However, our limited consciousness seems incapable of understanding why this is the case without the help of science. One of Augusta's errors (and mine too) was overstating the role of permanent, constitutional differences in personality. Her model treats people as essentially unchanging actors and isn't well suited for describing short- and long-term development. This error, as well as its opposite — that everything is situational — are easy to make if you are unaware of the last 30 years of psychology research.

Augusta attempted to explain phenomena which are still clouded in mystery — namely love and interpersonal attachment/rejection patterns — and did a half-decent job at it. Good enough to make a lot of people excited about the discovery. Because there are so many types and varieties of intertype relations, a place could be found for any person in the universe revolving around any particular person. To find points where the system breaks down requires comparing overlapping universes to see how the predicted relationships and perceived personalities play out. Like I said, this can take a lot of time — years and years — as one tries tweaking typings and one's understanding of socionics to see if things can be made to fit after all.
By Rick at 10:58 PM
Keywords: compatibility, happiness, neuroscience, psychology, relationships, self-help
2 comments:

aestrivex said...
"Augusta attempted to explain phenomena which are still clouded in mystery — namely love and interpersonal attachment/rejection patterns — and did a half-decent job at it."

As someone who feels you are making the error of withdrawing too harshly from socionics, indeed, rather than provide a detailed counterpoint of all of the bullet points you listed, here is the basic idea, summarized just by this:

Augusta did do an imperfect job at classifying something highly complex and mysterious. Nonetheless, she indeed did a good job that was exciting. This makes her work highly valuable, and not useless just because the classification is imperfect.

Nothing, for instance, about modern neuroimaging reflects the perfect "brain-o-scope" in any way. Yet, we believe that it tells us some minor part of what is going on in the brain during highly limited tasks where the subject can't move more than a finger. These are deep limitations. Does it make neuroimaging valueless?

I feel that as part of your withdrawal of socionics, and have said so often, that you place undue emphasis in how "good" science, psychology, and especially neuroscience are at addressing these mysteries. They tell us an important piece of the puzzle, but socionics tells us a different piece, and indeed one that is vastly overlooked in the puzzle of the mind. Individual differences are rarely examined deeply, and while social psychologists and many cognitive neuroscientists invariably ignore the possible influence of individual differences, it is obvious to me that it is something worth examining that sheds additional light on findings from those disciplines (for instance, socionics theory suggests that people may have different susceptibilities to Zimbardo's "power of the situation." This is untested, but seems completely plausible).

There is this idea that is espoused by many socionists that it should be perfect at explaining intertype relations and that duality is magic. I agree wholeheartedly that these are bad ideas. But say, for the sake of argument, that socionics correctly predicted 75% of intertype relations, and totally failed in other cases, both due to model inaccuracy and greater scope of individuals in question. Would such a model be of no value? To clinicians? To researchers?
Apr 14, 2013, 4:47:00 PM
Jonathan 345 said...
Like old times...maybe we should see if Sam shows up. Anyhow, a lot of good points in your blog post. Since you took the trouble to number them, here are some further thoughts/ideas. Overall, I think sometimes we have to be critics of something to become free of it and develop something new, and that's a good thing. But here's some food for thought (just to be contrary :)...

1. To me, the fascination of typology is actually when one can find hidden similarities that aren't obvious.

3. Yeah. I see socionics as sort of like identifying the shapes of clouds as triangular, square, etc. Sometimes it fits, or kinda... You're right that most of the time it's more rewarding to seek to understand people on their own merits.

4. It's an interesting question for research. In my own observations, I think a person's perception of others people's personalities does have a role in whom one is likely to approach for conversation, though this may tend more toward similarity than complementarity (as you point out in 5.2). In a way, typology is merely an attempt to give names to some common perceptions people have about other people's personalities. The fact that the actual people may be far more complicated (as per point 3) doesn't contradict that.

5.2. True. With MBTI, people often make the opposite mistake..e.g., it's assumed people will get along with similar types and clash with distant ones. Socionics recognizes power in complementarity, which is also a concept from Jung. I think people will agree with that approach to the extent that they've experienced that power, even through thought experiment.

6. & 6.1.1. This is a clear flaw in her writing. Just as with alpha-centrism, this seems to be one of those things that people know is incorrect, but somehow it never goes away. :)

6.1. As I understood it, at least, socionics presumes to make predictions about the course of the relationship and its particular challenges, not so much about initial attraction.

7. I agree that it's generally more interesting and profitable to observe what one finds for what it is and discover the relationships that are there than to just continually apply existing theories. Perhaps this will lead to a valuable new theory...or if one eventually comes to a conclusion supporting socionics, at least it's not a forced one.

8./8.1 Clearly most people will avoid someone who's rude and stinks, but that doesn't invalidate the idea of typology or similar approaches. It's really a matter of balance, isn't it? If one focuses too much on universals, one misses the true diversity in people and their wants & needs; but it's equally a mistake to ignore the universals.

9/9.1 Socionists probably make too much of the PoLR. You seem to be outlining an understanding of human behavior that combines biological evolution and rational choice theory. Seems interesting.

Anyhow, I think you know all the points and counterpoints anyway...but maybe now is just the time be free...

Here is a very interesting socionics article, wich describe Russia's main type and mind-set, as being INFJ. Its very very interesting!!! Please read it.
http://www.the16types.info/vbulletin/content.php/369-Socionics-Interpretation-of-Russian-National-Character-by-Kramarenko-and-Davidson
Remember the famous Winston Churchill:
Russia is a riddle wrapped in a mystery inside an enigma.

BrokenDaniel

24-04-14, 09:38 PM

As said in this thread before, such a waste of username. I'm clueless about INFs being marginalized of society, actually i've seen more people complaining about the fetish made out of these types, and how idealized they are, fwiw.

muir

24-04-14, 10:33 PM

As said in this thread before, such a waste of username. I'm clueless about INFs being marginalized of society, actually i've seen more people complaining about the fetish made out of these types, and how idealized they are, fwiw.

A put upon person is either going to bend to try to fit the ideal or they will assert themself even more in defiance

DonTaushMe

24-04-14, 10:40 PM

EJarendee has been uninhibitedly bashing INFJ's. He is someone who believes in Socionics which considers the INFJ personality type to be utterly worthless. He also personally feels that the INFJ type is not even suitable for a man.
He said and I quote "If I were an INFJ I would give you my left nut and I would suck your balls"

When EJarendee speaks on the negative qualities or stereotypes of INFJ's he will sound aggressive and be extremely critical. For example in an early video he describes the differences between the INFJ and the INTJ. In that video he talks about how INFJ's are inclined to believe in absurd conspiracies. He speaks of it like he considers it to be a very serious flaw in a person. In a recent video in which he describes the differences between INFJ's and ENFJ's he bashes INFJ's for the so called lazy stereotype which is exaggerated to an extreme in Socionics where INFJ's are almost incapable of being productive as humans. In that video he could barely hold in his anger.

This may sound trivial and insignificant but this will rub off on the entire MBTI community. Most of the MBTI community watches his videos. Everyone that searches their personality on youtube will immediately find his videos. He is the spokesperson for the entire MBTI community and is a very negative influence to that community. He has over 2,000 subscribers and has over 450,000 views on his youtube channel.

This deucebag is also promoting Socionics which is a system designed by the Communist Soviet Union in order to categorize humans for the communist system according to usefulness. In Socionics they strip the Idealist quality of INFJ's. Socionics is basically a bastardized form of MBTI. The reason he likes Socionics is because it promotes ESTP's as being this incredible personality type.

He is an issue.. especially considering that MBTI is growing in popularity. Which means when MBTI goes mainstream you will have EJarendee with a ton of subscribers(millions) just bashing personality types and associating unrelated things to types like in a recent video he mentioned that all INFP's watch anime porn and on his website he says INFP's are likely to develop weird fetishes which will inevitably cause bullying and disgust for INFP's. The entire mbti youtube community i.e the people who post youtube videos about MBTI consider this guy to be disrespectful,immature and insensitive. They all hate him but they wont admit it. When EJarendee talk about the negative qualities of other personality types he is more careful/respectful whether it be the ENTJ or the ENFP this is because he respects those types. But when he speaks on the negative qualities on the INFJ its more critical and aggressive. He has said many times that the INFJ personality type is not a serious personality type (Meaning he does not take INFJ's seriously and he does not respect them)

The worst thing that could happen is Socionics becoming part of everyday culture.

In the near future MBTI will be pretty much known by everyone. It will have cultural implications and there will be stereotypes and typism. You will have to check in your type to get a job since Socionic/MBTI will be taken so seriously. You will literally have companies and businesses that will only hire certain types. That was the original goal of the people that created Socionics. It was to be implement into society. You will have parents desiring specific personality types for their children. Desiring types like ENTJ's and ENTP's who are seen as more useful and superior in Socionics. In the end the INFJ will be carrying the useless/lazy stereotype by society. The INFJ type will be viewed as undesirable. INFJ's will act like other types to mask themselves. The natural partners to the INFJ is the ENTP and ENFP and they will both decide that the INTJ is a more suitable partner because INFJ's will have such a devastating stigma associated with them. Then no more will the world of MBTI be a comforting place for INFJ's. You will very soon notice a change in the air within the actual current mbti community. For example people of other types dismissing/underestimating the capacity/capability of INFJ's to succeed and be of any large scale influence to society and this was all started by EJarendee who on his site called ArendeePsych has portrayed INFJ's as being incapable of actually accomplishing their goals. EJarendee will lead the MBTI community with millions of subscribers. He will have the most popular MBTI channel. He will use his channel to heavily promote Socionics upon millions of people and this will have long term negative effects.

INFJ's and INFP's will be even more isolated within society. Do not underestimate the natural cruelty of society. When South Park made the ginger episode it caused a firestorm of bullying towards redheads. It became an almost instant reaction to that episode within cultures/countries that contain redheads. There is even a holiday associated with that episode and its called Kick a Ginger Day. There are thousands of children and teenagers being targeted because of their red hair. Do not underestimate how quickly these things can progress. We all know full well that there exist bullying on every level of human society. In the workplace.. at school.. in the military.. within our families

Jesus, where do I start? That quote was hilarious by the way. I'm just gonna bold every point I address.

Conspiracy theories CAN BE a very serious flaw in a person, if the person chooses to let their conspiracy theories debilitate them. You know that kooky guy with the tin foil hat in his trailer out in the middle of no where? That's an extreme example. Now you've got the less extreme: people on the internet screaming 'CONSPIRACY!' to everyone that they think will listen. Does about as much good as a homeless man walking around a block with a sign around him that says 'The End is Nigh.' In every case the person spouting conspiracies is isolated -because they have isolated themselves.

As far as INFJs incapable of being productive human beings, I actually personally know this to be false however I also know how people could think this. My father is an INFJ, his office is plastered with plaques of the achievements he's made at his job and the plaques hanging up aren't the only ones he has -we just hung up the pretty ones. And more than that he threw a bunch away as he does not think he achieved anything, he just did his job. He is an INFJ.

Now a friend of mine, who is not a friend as I hate him, has typed himself an INFJ. He is a lazy, lying, selfish, self centered, self indulgent, self proclaimed god who does not believe he needs to follow. Because of this, because he believes everyone should follow him, he has mistype himself as an INFJ. His personality and his actions have led him exactly where he is now, in his mothers house in a filthy bed room with toys and gadgets all around him. He has knowledge and is smart in some areas however he has no care to help people. His expression is, 'I want to save the world, but only if I control it.' He will go no where in life unless someone carries him. As you can tell, I have nothing good to say about this kid.

People who are unsuccessful because they choose to not conform, will type themselves as INFJs and that will be their excuse. 'Says here I'm a leader, not a follower.' This person I loath has done it, and in turn has mucked up the label of INFJ.

I'm an INFP and I have watched anime porn. Real porn is too fake :P (hahahahaXD) however! I was the LEAST bullied kid, ever. I got bullied, and at one point it was very harsh because it was about something that mattered a lot to me, however most things don't really matter. I personally have a fairly carefree attitude and really don't care if someone thinks I'm a cunt. I would say that maybe, possibly, probably, other INFPs feel the same way. This is because I know myself better than any bully ever would.

INFJs are very rare, everyone may think they are one however I doubt very much that this man you are screaming about has ever met one.

INFJs will succeed because they are INFJs. They are driven to succeed. Not 'oh, I had a nice thought this morning, maybe I should do it' -INFJs say, 'I'm doing this because its nice and good for others' while they are in the middle of doing this nice thing that is good for others.

If anything we isolate ourselves.

And I really don't even know why you spoke about red heads. People don't walk around with a t-shirt saying 'I am an INFJ!' Red hair... is on your head, its visible all the time.. I don't... I don't understand why you would even think about comparing the two. As far as people who are online screaming they're an INFJ, they usually are not. Beside that people will get bullied online no matter what. People who are idiots and screaming lies about themselves will be bullied more often. If you get bullied enough I suppose you could call yourself the red head of the internet *shrug*

muir

24-04-14, 11:01 PM

And I really don't even know why you spoke about red heads. People don't walk around with a t-shirt saying 'I am an INFJ!' Red hair... is on your head, its visible all the time.. I don't... I don't understand why you would even think about comparing the two. As far as people who are online screaming they're an INFJ, they usually are not. Beside that people will get bullied online no matter what. People who are idiots and screaming lies about themselves will be bullied more often. If you get bullied enough I suppose you could call yourself the red head of the internet *shrug*

Well lets say hypothetically that there is some validity in MBTI

Let's say that there are roughly speaking 16 types that all process info differently. They are all capable of being different ways at different times but they have preferences and sometimes they can't be something else even when they want to

For example an introvert feeling their energy drain whilst being around others might wish to have more energy at that point but whatever it is inside them it justs drains them

Now a person with beautiful red hair might get prejudice from some idiots because red hair is less common. But everyone can see their red hair and recognise the prejudice

If a person processes information differently however they may also receive prejudice for being in a less common sub group but no one can see the object of the prejudice they are receiving...it is intangible

Indeed some people might be totally ignorant of MBTI they might just feel that the person is different some way and therefore be prejudiced against them....they're too quiet, too bookish, too....different...too...weird

But no one can point easily to the prejudice and say ''hey you shouldn't be prejudiced against that'' because the thing is so difficult to define and so many people aren't even aware of MBTI

I have posted a clip above of a successful business woman who is also an introvert who wrote a book about her experiences in business and education as an introvert and she recognises that there are prejudices against introverts. She talks about the 'extrovert ideal'

Lots of introverts know what she means...it's there but we can't cry foul in the same way that say a red haired person could because introversion is an intangible and therefore people are more likely to be dismissive about any prejudice aimed at it

So i think the parallel the OP draws is an interesting one

If you're gonna be the subject of prejudice though it might be easier to resist that if you are being misstreated for something that is easily definable and ideally visible to the mostly concrete thinking and percieving population

DonTaushMe

24-04-14, 11:16 PM

Well lets say hypothetically that there is some validity in MBTI

Let's say that there are roughly speaking 16 types that all process info differently. They are all capable of being different ways at different times but they have preferences and sometimes they can't be something else even when they want to

For example an introvert feeling their energy drain whilst being around others might wish to have more energy at that point but whatever it is inside them it justs drains them

Now a person with beautiful red hair might get prejudice from some idiots because red hair is less common. But everyone can see their red hair and recognise the prejudice

If a person processes information differently however they may also receive prejudice for being in a less common sub group but no one can see the object of the prejudice they are receiving...it is intangible

Indeed some people might be totally ignorant of MBTI they might just feel that the person is different some way and therefore be prejudiced against them....they're too quiet, too bookish, too....different...too...weird

But no one can point easily to the prejudice and say ''hey you shouldn't be prejudiced against that'' because the thing is so difficult to define and so many people aren't even aware of MBTI

I have posted a clip above of a successful business woman who is also an introvert who wrote a book about her experiences in business and education as an introvert and she recognises that there are prejudices against introverts. She talks about the 'extrovert ideal'

Lots of introverts know what she means...it's there but we can't cry foul in the same way that say a red haired person could because introversion is an intangible and therefore people are more likely to be dismissive about any prejudice aimed at it

So i think the parallel the OP draws is an interesting one

If you're gonna be the subject of prejudice though it might be easier to resist that if you are being misstreated for something that is easily definable and ideally visible to the mostly concrete thinking and percieving population

If you're an introvert and you know that being surrounded by people drains you physically yet you choose to be in a work environment that does just that, that's your own damn fault.

Besides that, in my experience, women love introverts -we are 'mysterious.' As far as men go as guy vs guy, no idea though I never had trouble with them. I'd say if your a guy and you're a little quirky, you should take some kind of fighting class. Men handle things very differently amongst themselves.

muir

24-04-14, 11:32 PM

If you're an introvert and you know that being surrounded by people drains you physically yet you choose to be in a work environment that does just that, that's your own damn fault.

Upto a point

It will depend what the dominant culture of the day is

Let's imagine a sci-fi film. In this film some crazy chauvinistic men take control of the government in some dystopian future. They decide that the problem with the world is women. They believe that the clock should be turned back to a time where women did not have a political vote, were the property of their husbands and could not gain employment....they had to be stay at home house wives

So to achieve this oppression of women they made a series of increasingly oppressive reforms to society. First of all they increased the tax bracket for women which drove women out of all the top jobs. Then they reformed marriage and property laws and they removed womens right to vote

With each reform you would find yourself in an increasingly hostile world where it became harder and harder for you to express your natural self and to play to your natural strengths

One day you confide in a man at the dead end job you have ended up in....you whisper to him under your breath: 'i'm being descriminated against here because i'm a woman. The first question on my job application asked what gender i am and on the basis of that they didn't give me the job....they wouldn't even let me come in for the psychometric testing phase'. The man looks at you suprised. He has been conditioned over many years by the media and education system to believe that women are innately inferior and that the reason they don't have good jobs is because they are dumber than men.

He shakes his head dissaprovingly at your comment and says: ''it's your own damn fault you didn't get the job''

Besides that, in my experience, women love introverts -we are 'mysterious.' As far as men go as guy vs guy, no idea though I never had trouble with them. I'd say if your a guy and you're a little quirky, you should take some kind of fighting class. Men handle things very differently amongst themselves.

lol don't worry on either of those scores...i can handle myself

Even if introverted men have no problem in love....i am more talking about the forces shaping our society in general

Everyone knows that wallstreet is totally corrupt and has crashed the economy. What kind of people do you think populate wallstreet? Do you think there are many INFJ's there? Or do you think there is a culture there that is hostile to INFJ's? And if that's the case do you think that maybe a more diverse culture might be a good thing there as it might act as a check and balance if there are more contemplative, reflective and conscientious people allowed into that environment?

invisible

24-04-14, 11:34 PM

*makes scary whistling wind sounds and wriggles large piece of coardboard in imitation of thunder*

*terrorises cat until she hides under bed*

LucyJr

24-04-14, 11:42 PM

All INFJs need to move in Russia. Supposedly Russia is filled with INFJs. I actually heard many saying this, Russia made a very INFJ enigmatic impression on them...

say what

24-04-14, 11:43 PM

psychology uses the "scientific method"? Althought I heard many to claim this, I thought they say it mostly as a hope, that "one day maybe" psychology would be some kind of science.
But at the actual state of affairs, I myself have to be CRAZY to think that psychology is science, or it has anything to do with "the scientific method". But this is just me and my opinion...the world is a big place.

You might be interested in reading this : http://blogs.scientificamerican.com/the-curious-wavefunction/2013/08/13/is-psychology-a-real-science-does-it-really-matter/

Psychology is actually a lot more scientific than the commonly regarded "sciences".

People often see psychology as MBTI, 'Criminal Minds', or other 'profiling' based on a broad array of characteristics...but that's just one portion of a very large field. It's also extremely interdisciplinary, and overlaps with medicine, biology, chemistry, sociology, social work - the list goes on.

muir

24-04-14, 11:45 PM

TED talk by susan cain called 'the power of introverts' (i think this was posted somewhere else by say what)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c0KYU2j0TM4

muir

24-04-14, 11:53 PM

Weeelll looks like we got ourselves a reader!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Uvs2g5Nj0NI

muir

24-04-14, 11:57 PM

All INFJs need to move in Russia. Supposedly Russia is filled with INFJs. I actually heard many saying this, Russia made a very INFJ enigmatic impression on them...

I like Russia Today but i'm not sure i'm ready to up sticks and move to the motherland

what do you think about our culture...do you think its weighted towards extroverts?

LucyJr

25-04-14, 12:27 AM

I like Russia Today but i'm not sure i'm ready to up sticks and move to the motherland

You're not a travel agent are you?

No I'm not:)

muir

25-04-14, 12:29 AM

No I'm not:)

Besides i thought we had all agreed that INFJ-land was going to be on an island (somewhere sunny!)

djarendee

25-04-14, 12:33 AM

Everything being debated in this thread has never actually happened. This whole entire thread is pointless. If you're gonna hate on me, at least quote me on what I actually said, and get your facts straight.

muir

25-04-14, 12:37 AM

Everything being debated in this thread has never actually happened. This whole entire thread is pointless. If you're gonna hate on me, at least quote me on what I actually said, and get your facts straight.

I haven't really said much about you...i just invited you to show some love for INFJ's

I've more been agreeing with the OP's argument that there is prejudice against some types and that it is even systemic within our wider culture

The OP said that you have a problem with INFJ's and that you've been smack talking them all over the internet....so this is a great opportunity to set the record straight....an exclusive on the INFJ forums.....you could tell the world how you don't have a problem with INFJ's and you could prove it by saying some nice things about them...

djarendee

25-04-14, 12:56 AM

I'm not your monkey. Watch the video and learn my perspective for yourself instead of listening to fools.

Shaqie

25-04-14, 01:01 AM

The battle of the letters keep on raging on!

muir

25-04-14, 01:06 AM

I'm not your monkey. Watch the video and learn my perspective for yourself instead of listening to fools.

So no love for INFJ's then?

The OP is looking more credible by the minute

invisible

25-04-14, 01:13 AM

what do you think about our culture...do you think its weighted towards extroverts?

yes it is, for so many reasons, but i dont think that has ever stopped introverts from achieving what they want to.

i also think the dystopian future prophesied in the OP, where some single youtube opinion crank becomes an accepted expert authority, and forces infjs out of public life, is pure persecution delusion, clearly motivated by personal anxieties and resentments, and more than anything, predicated on the infinitesimal probability of MBTI personality theory achieving a sort of global dominance as a defining metric of cultural, political, and economic life. it is a fantasy of persecution that is not situated in reality, and its not worth dignifying with serious treatment. the kindest way i can think of to describe what is happening in the OP is that it is "borrowing trouble".

persecution delusion mongering offends me. it creates a false idea of a sense of victimhood that distracts from readily apprehendable problems in this world. often it even bends the subjectivities of genuine victims to its agenda. it doesnt really care about people and what they truly think or feel or believe or want, all it cares about is its own agenda.

DonTaushMe

25-04-14, 01:38 AM

Upto a point

It will depend what the dominant culture of the day is

Let's imagine a sci-fi film. In this film some crazy chauvinistic men take control of the government in some dystopian future. They decide that the problem with the world is women. They believe that the clock should be turned back to a time where women did not have a political vote, were the property of their husbands and could not gain employment....they had to be stay at home house wives

So to achieve this oppression of women they made a series of increasingly oppressive reforms to society. First of all they increased the tax bracket for women which drove women out of all the top jobs. Then they reformed marriage and property laws and they removed womens right to vote

With each reform you would find yourself in an increasingly hostile world where it became harder and harder for you to express your natural self and to play to your natural strengths

One day you confide in a man at the dead end job you have ended up in....you whisper to him under your breath: 'i'm being descriminated against here because i'm a woman. The first question on my job application asked what gender i am and on the basis of that they didn't give me the job....they wouldn't even let me come in for the psychometric testing phase'. The man looks at you suprised. He has been conditioned over many years by the media and education system to believe that women are innately inferior and that the reason they don't have good jobs is because they are dumber than men.

He shakes his head dissaprovingly at your comment and says: ''it's your own damn fault you didn't get the job''

lol don't worry on either of those scores...i can handle myself

Even if introverted men have no problem in love....i am more talking about the forces shaping our society in general

Everyone knows that wallstreet is totally corrupt and has crashed the economy. What kind of people do you think populate wallstreet? Do you think there are many INFJ's there? Or do you think there is a culture there that is hostile to INFJ's? And if that's the case do you think that maybe a more diverse culture might be a good thing there as it might act as a check and balance if there are more contemplative, reflective and conscientious people allowed into that environment?

K, just, bare with me here kid. A realistic view, my view, that if you understand your own abilities as an introvert you should stay within those abilities less drive YOURSELF crazy - to your view that because you're an INFJ people fear you and because people fear you -your ideals not mine- because people fear you they will take a scifi novel type resemblance to you and your INFJ kind and out casting you to your own kind of devastation and from there I'm sure the apocalypse happens in this little scenario. K, lets go back to the reality of it, and I'll indulge you a bit too. If people start to fear INFJs so much so that they want to take away their rights, INFJs are leaders, they are leaders because people want to follow them. It's not 'oh I'm a leader because this test says I am' they are leaders because they are charismatic, they understand people and people like them; people want to know more about them and they choose to follow them. So! If some crazy fictional maniac wants to put all the INFJs in the world into an electric pen, INFJs will get followers before anything like that ever happened.

As far as Wallstreet goes, they will just kill you. They are very powerful men who enjoy their power very much and will have absolutely no remorse for killing another human being who threatens their power.

invisible

25-04-14, 01:55 AM

additionally, in case my clownish cat post was too obtuse, i want to clarify that persecution mongering like this bothers me because it frightens people with a false sense that the odds are stacked overwhelmingly against them. people need and deserve encouragement to succeed in the worthy dreams that they want to achieve, not this sort of disempowering identification with false victimhood.

LucyJr

25-04-14, 02:09 AM

You might be interested in reading this : http://blogs.scientificamerican.com/the-curious-wavefunction/2013/08/13/is-psychology-a-real-science-does-it-really-matter/

Psychology is actually a lot more scientific than the commonly regarded "sciences".

People often see psychology as MBTI, 'Criminal Minds', or other 'profiling' based on a broad array of characteristics...but that's just one portion of a very large field. It's also extremely interdisciplinary, and overlaps with medicine, biology, chemistry, sociology, social work - the list goes on.
Yeah, I know about these kinds of articles. In my opinion, why should I bother to deny what is plain and simple common sense?
No offense, but I can take psychology as a "science", and especialy using the "scientific method". I just can't. Because it isn't. Scientific.

the

25-04-14, 03:49 AM

Seriously, MBTI for me is nothing. Is just silly. Socionics is with more weight in it, but its still silly.
Its value for me is just descriptive. It is a observation, and then they writte down the information.
It has not a single value in any scientific and realistic sense. There are just some observation, and even those observations, are not from a objective point, are biased.
As for the extrovertion and introvertion thing, again for me its just a excuse for why groups of people acts in certain ways. What alot of b.s. Beofre these absurd "scientific" theories, people were much more simple and open with eachother.
Now we make arguments of what type is supposed to get with another.

All observations are biased. Why is there no value in observation?

Barnabas

25-04-14, 07:56 AM

For the reasons barnabas gave.

I post three well researched extensive comments in the philosophy and religion sub-forum and and all three threads die, I try and smother one flaming thread and the next day it has over one hundred responses.

http://i.imgur.com/antqm.gif

muir

25-04-14, 10:03 AM

yes it is, for so many reasons, but i dont think that has ever stopped introverts from achieving what they want to.

i also think the dystopian future prophesied in the OP, where some single youtube opinion crank becomes an accepted expert authority, and forces infjs out of public life, is pure persecution delusion, clearly motivated by personal anxieties and resentments, and more than anything, predicated on the infinitesimal probability of MBTI personality theory achieving a sort of global dominance as a defining metric of cultural, political, and economic life. it is a fantasy of persecution that is not situated in reality, and its not worth dignifying with serious treatment. the kindest way i can think of to describe what is happening in the OP is that it is "borrowing trouble".

persecution delusion mongering offends me. it creates a false idea of a sense of victimhood that distracts from readily apprehendable problems in this world. often it even bends the subjectivities of genuine victims to its agenda. it doesnt really care about people and what they truly think or feel or believe or want, all it cares about is its own agenda.

How can you say on one hand that you think there is a prejudice against introverts and on the other hand brush it off as 'persecution deluison'?

I don't think it's an insignificant thing at all. I think corporations ARE using psychometric testing to recruit people and i'd say that negative cultures ARE being created in places like wallstreet that are then having massive effects on the rest of society

There was even a hollywood film made recently called 'Divergent' which looks at a dystopian future where humanity is split into 5 factions on the basis of personality types....that's pretty ominous i'd say

Also this argument that the system hasn't stopped introverts from achieving what they want to achieve....i don;t agree with that

I listen to introverted activists who are trying to push back against the system ALL THE TIME. The system most definately IS stopping them from acheiving what they want to achieve

Also the system is changing...its getting worse all the time (see snowdens ongoing revelations) so its not going to get friendlier to INFJ's its going to get more hostile

New Dawn Fades

25-04-14, 10:04 AM

So no love for INFJ's then?

The OP is looking more credible by the minute

Sorry, but there is really no need for this. We don't need this kind of approval-seeking. Which correlates with this victimhood mentality stated in the OP, by the way.

Yeah, I know about these kinds of articles. In my opinion, why should I bother to deny what is plain and simple common sense?
No offense, but I can take psychology as a "science", and especialy using the "scientific method". I just can't. Because it isn't. Scientific.

I really don't want to offend you, but why are you being so ignorant? Did you even read this article? Or considered our arguments? "Simple common sense" is exactly the thing that people are claiming when they don't want to face the facts. And you didn't bring any valid argument into this discussion. I'm sorry, but this bothers me.

muir

25-04-14, 10:35 AM

K, just, bare with me here kid. A realistic view, my view, that if you understand your own abilities as an introvert you should stay within those abilities less drive YOURSELF crazy

When i was tyring to find various articles online about the 'extrovert ideal' one of the random sites i cam across was a design site. That site was obviously looking at our society through the lens of design...as in designing spaces for living. The article there was making the point that the way our public living spaces are designed are made that way to suit extroverts

That's a pretty random example of what i'm talking about but i think it shows in how many ways the pressure can be upped on certain types

I have spoken about capitalism here a lot and about how i think it degrades people. When i graduated and was thinking about what i want to do for a living i ran through many different possible career options. What i noticed when i looked into various areas was that even jobs that looked like they were good honest jobs on the surface where actually bent out of shape by the system to forward the systems agenda.

One of the key criteria for me in job hunting is that i didn't want to do anything that screwed over other people in any way. When you factor externalities into jobs as well to take into account their direct and indirect affect on the world it actually drastically reduces the number of jobs in a capitalist society that were then suitable.

What i'm saying is that a system that is totally based around PROFIT has a habit of degrading everything else and anyone who engages with it

It's not a system for conscientious people. Now you could look at the figures i posted above about the earnings of different types and you could say ''well the INFJ's aren't doing so great'' but is that because INFJ's aren't smart or is it because INFJ's have taken less well paid jobs in order to live in accordance with their ideals?

So you could judge 'success' in purely monetary terms and say ''INFJ's aren't particularly successful'' or you could apply a whole different criteria to success. You could for example value other things such as: spirituality (how spiritually fulfilled do different types feel?), happiness, health, family life, inner peace, usefulness to society, how much they help other people, how little do they damage the planet etc

If you worked by that different criteria you might suddenly see INFJ's as highly successful people.

But we don't as a society think that way....the dominant culture is a PROFIT based system and that is why we have all the problems we do and the constant war and strife and so on. Our society is riddled with problems...it's not 'successful'

I don't think viewing things this way is 'crazy'...i think putting profit before everything else is crazy

- to your view that because you're an INFJ people fear you and because people fear you -your ideals not mine-

No those are your words not mine. I didn't say people in general would fear INFJ's

I do however think the people who engineer our society are threatened by INFJ's yes....because we don't fit so well into their nice neat tidy boxes. In that film 'divergent' the 'divergent' people are exterminated because they don't fit into any of the 5 narrow factions

People's perceptions ARE shaped by their culture however and if they are told that divergent people are a threat to society then they will end up self policing their fellow citizens

because people fear you they will take a scifi novel type resemblance to you and your INFJ kind and out casting you to your own kind of devastation and from there I'm sure the apocalypse happens in this little scenario. K, lets go back to the reality of it, and I'll indulge you a bit too. If people start to fear INFJs so much so that they want to take away their rights, INFJs are leaders, they are leaders because people want to follow them.

Well.....talking from my own experience INFJ's only step up into a leadership role when people are struggling and directionless...an INFJ will then step up into the void and be accepted in that role. Otherwise they prefer to quietly but steadily work from the sidelines

They are not sharp elbowed

So i think people in general only listen to INFJ's in a leadership role when they are lost and kind of desperate. So look at Ghandi....he was just a lawyer but when the people got desperate enough that the fear of reprisals for their actions was outweighed by their current misery then they developed the political WILL to act and at that point they were willing to listen to an INFJ who knew the lay of the land and was able to eloquently set it out for people

I stepped up into a leadership role in my work place in a crisis even though i was one of the most junior people there. Before that it hadn't even crossed my mind to do that; before that I just quietly and respectfully went about my business. But when the crisis struck everyone was in a lot of fear and distress but no one knew what to do. I had some clear understanding of what was going on and what we could do about it and something inside me pushed me forward at that point when before that my natural instinct was to hang back and let others step forward. I filled the boots when it needed to be done and stepped back again when it was over

It's not 'oh I'm a leader because this test says I am' they are leaders because they are charismatic, they understand people and people like them; people want to know more about them and they choose to follow them. So! If some crazy fictional maniac wants to put all the INFJs in the world into an electric pen, INFJs will get followers before anything like that ever happened.

Most INFJ's aren't trying to take a leadership role...they do it if it needs to be done

The people trying to take leadership roles are the sharp elbowed types who are all confidence and little ability; to see examples of that type watch 'the apprentice' on TV...you'll see lots of people whos confidence outweighs their ability...or to quote a line from one of the cheesiest films ever made: ''their ego's writing checks their body can't cash''

As far as Wallstreet goes, they will just kill you. They are very powerful men who enjoy their power very much and will have absolutely no remorse for killing another human being who threatens their power.

Well we're agreed on that point

But the point i was making is that in our society there are places where decisions are made that have a massive impact on our society. If we want those decisions to be made in a way that is going to be good for society then we need to make sure ALL the personality types are represented in those places

However that's not the case because things like psychometric testing prevent people getting in the door and anyone who can slip through the psychometric testing net will then be destroyed by the culture within that place that has been created to be a toxic environment for some types

See recent film 'the wolf of wallstreet' to get an idea of how a culture can be created in a place

muir

25-04-14, 10:37 AM

additionally, in case my clownish cat post was too obtuse, i want to clarify that persecution mongering like this bothers me because it frightens people with a false sense that the odds are stacked overwhelmingly against them. people need and deserve encouragement to succeed in the worthy dreams that they want to achieve, not this sort of disempowering identification with false victimhood.

I'm not encouraging victimhood i'm encouraging knowing the lay of the land so that a person can navigate it better either to avoid pitfalls or to challenge the system

Reading vitcimhood into it is YOUR interpretation

I'm not a victim

muir

25-04-14, 10:39 AM

Sorry, but there is really no need for this. We don't need this kind of approval-seeking. Which correlates with this victimhood mentality stated in the OP, by the way.

The OP has said this guy who is posting videos all over the internet is spreading anti-INFJ propaganda

I'm just saying that seeing as the guy is here in this thread he could set the record straight...but he hasn't...which makes the claims of the OP look more credible

New Dawn Fades

25-04-14, 10:48 AM

I'm just saying that seeing as the guy is here in this thread he could set the record straight...but he hasn't...which makes the claims of the OP look more credible

I don't see the point of him "declaring INFJ love". That doesn't help in the discussion at all. And you can neither force people to do such a thing nor expect them to.

I don't get why this should make the OP look more credible.

---

And what I wanted to say in general: Yeah, we live in a society that values extraversion and striving for profit... But this doesn't have to mean that we live in a world of monsters who care only about money and possessions. We're all humans, for chrissake. We're still social creatures. Of course we all care a LOT about love and relationships. Maybe not that much at work, but there is more to life.

Cornerstone

25-04-14, 10:49 AM

The OP has said this guy who is posting videos all over the internet is spreading anti-INFJ propaganda

I'm just saying that seeing as the guy is here in this thread he could set the record straight...but he hasn't...which makes the claims of the OP look more credible

Whilst I don't disagree with what you're saying in general, in the thread by this guy you linked to, he does say that he isn't trying to bash INFJs and says more about it. That being said, I haven't watched the video that he feels the need to qualify with that statement.

muir

25-04-14, 11:00 AM

I don't see the point of him "declaring INFJ love". That doesn't help in the discussion at all. And you can neither force people to do such a thing nor expect them to.

I'm not 'forcing' him to do anything...i invited him to

I don't get why this should make the OP look more credible.

The OP has said this guy expresses hate towards INFJ's.....if he doesn't express any love for INFJ's on the INFJ forum of all places then it suggests that what the OP is saying might be correct

But look i don't want to go on about djarendee.....as he has said watch his videos and then make your mind up...and that's fair enough

I personally HAVE watched some of his videos. I then pointed out to him what were some errors as i saw it. I was no the only person to do that on the thread. Annoyingly i cannot find that thread....possbily becase it wasn't started by djarendee or because it has been deleted on request...but i'm telling you there has been a debate along these lines here already

And what I wanted to say in general: Yeah, we live in a society that values extraversion and striving for profit... But this doesn't have to mean that we live in a world of monsters who care only about money and possessions. We're all humans, for chrissake. We're still social creatures. Of course we all care a LOT about love and relationships. Maybe not that much at work, but there is more to life.

Well that's exactly what is behind my message: ''there's more to life''

if you want to see however quite how moulded our society is and what sort of role psychiatry and psychology have played i strongly recommend the documentary ''the century of the self''

This documentary will show you evidence that will put everything i'm saying on very strong foundations of reality

muir

25-04-14, 11:04 AM

Whilst I don't disagree with what you're saying in general, in the thread by this guy you linked to, he does say that he isn't trying to bash INFJs and says more about it. That being said, I haven't watched the video that he feels the need to qualify with that statement.

I can't find the thread in which he was saying things about INFJ's that myself and some others didn't agree to which was made BEFORE the thread you are talking about

It is quite possible that it has been erased from the record.....capiche?

LucyJr

25-04-14, 11:11 AM

All observations are biased. Why is there no value in observation?

Because observation usualy follows a casual chain. In psychology you can't do that. In psychology you can guess abd suppose, and that's exactly what they are doing. Oh, and psychiatry also.

LucyJr

25-04-14, 11:16 AM

I really don't want to offend you, but why are you being so ignorant? Did you even read this article? Or considered our arguments? "Simple common sense" is exactly the thing that people are claiming when they don't want to face the facts. And you didn't bring any valid argument into this discussion. I'm sorry, but this bothers me.
Well some thing don't even need argumentation...althought I can give you some arguments, but I don't want to.

New Dawn Fades

25-04-14, 11:24 AM

Because observation usualy follows a casual chain. In psychology you can't do that. In psychology you can guess abd suppose, and that's exactly what they are doing. Oh, and psychiatry also.

No, psychiatrists aren't just guessing. There are certain things in the human body that you can measure (hormons, neurotransmitters) which cause or at least contribute to certain illnesses. And there is medicine to help people with psychological diseases. Though it doesn't help 100% of them, it does help in the majority of cases. It's the same thing as medicine. Don't tell me that its not scientific. Some part of psychology and psychiatry may be pseudo-scientific, yes. But you just can't say that it's not scientific in general.
Psychology works in so many cases - to mention an example, mass behavior. Because psychologists can predict mass behavior, they are able to prevent that in concerts or other mass events, people are being stamped down. This works, obviously.

muir

25-04-14, 12:20 PM

No, psychiatrists aren't just guessing. There are certain things in the human body that you can measure (hormons, neurotransmitters) which cause or at least contribute to certain illnesses. And there is medicine to help people with psychological diseases. Though it doesn't help 100% of them, it does help in the majority of cases. It's the same thing as medicine. Don't tell me that its not scientific. Some part of psychology and psychiatry may be pseudo-scientific, yes. But you just can't say that it's not scientific in general.
Psychology works in so many cases - to mention an example, mass behavior. Because psychologists can predict mass behavior, they are able to prevent that in concerts or other mass events, people are being stamped down. This works, obviously.

One big problem as i see it is the one identified by the psychologist in the clip i posted above. He says that psychiatry is used as an instrument of control

He is right

There is that saying by Stalin isn't there about how elections work: ''it doesn't matter who does the voting, it only matters who does the counting''

Well its the same with psychiatry. Whoever is deciding the norms gets to decide what is going to be rewarded and what is going to get penalised

An example would be the recent proposals over gun ownership. The powers that be are afraid of gun owners because they know that the US was created by armed citizens challenging the authority of a corrupt and oppressive government so they want to take everyones guns away.

They can't just pass laws that do that as people would rise up so they have to try and get these things in the back door

So they say: ''gun owners should be evaluated by psychiatrists who will evaluate who is safe to own a gun''

Lot's of liberal folks living in safe areas will hear that and think ''yes that makes sense. That way the crazy people won't get guns''

But if they actually exercised their ability for critical thought they would realise that criminals don't buy their guns legally so psyche tests wouldn't stop them getting guns and what would in fact happen is that the government would hand pick the evaluators and tell them that they don't want anyone who is a military vet (tarined at handling weapons effectively and many vets turn anti-authority once they leave the army and realise how they were duped) or a trade union member, or a civil rights activist or a member of any political group who is against the government and/or its policies and so on

That way they would use psychiatry to disarm all their opponents under the excuse of keeping guns out of the hands of crazy people (who could just buy a gun on the black market)

They'll just say that vets are suffering from PTSD and that trade unions and civil rights activists are suffering from Oppositional Defiant Disorder and stop them holding guns and so on

Psyhciatry is used to control people and if we aren't wise to that we can leave the door open to very nasty people getting their way

LucyJr

25-04-14, 12:25 PM

One big problem as i see it is the one identified by the psychologist in the clip i posted above. He says that psychiatry is used as an instrument of control

He is right

There is that saying by Stalin isn't there about how elections work: ''it doesn't matter who does the voting, it only matters who does the counting''

Well its the same with psychiatry. Whoever is deciding the norms gets to decide what is going to be rewarded and what is going to get penalised

An example would be the recent proposals over gun ownership. The powers that be are afraid of gun owners because they know that the US was created by armed citizens challenging the authority of a corrupt and oppressive government so they want to take everyones guns away.

They can't just pass laws that do that as people would rise up so they have to try and get these things in the back door

So they say: ''gun owners should be evaluated by psychiatrists who will evaluate who is safe to own a gun''

Lot's of liberal folks living in safe areas will hear that and think ''yes that makes sense. That way the crazy people won't get guns''

But if they actually exercised their ability for critical thought they would realise that criminals don't buy their guns legally so psyche tests wouldn't stop them getting guns and what would in fact happen is that the government would hand pick the evaluators and tell them that they don't want anyone who is a military vet (tarined at handling weapons effectively and many vets turn anti-authority once they leave the army and realise how they were duped) or a tarde union member or a member of any political group who is against the government and/or its policies and so on

That way they would use psychiatry to disarm all their opponents under the excuse of keeping guns out of the hands of crazy people (who could just buy a gun on the black market)

They'll just say that vets are suffering from PTSD and that trade unions and civil rights activists are suffering from Oppositional Defiant Disorder and stop them holding guns and so on

Psyhciatry is used to control people and if we aren't wise to that we can leave the door open to very nasty people getting their way
With the help pf psychiatry and their imaginary mental disorders, they can internate any "patient" in seconds into a mental asylum, and they have all the motives to do so, because they have invented the mental diseases. At this moment, everything is ok. But in the future years, all this job they done with DSV-5 and all their diagnosis, will show its true color. This is alsp history, nazi history and even American history. Its just that people are to blind to see where these things are going.

New Dawn Fades

25-04-14, 12:43 PM

I posted once a video in the Vaccines debate thread, a TED talk where a journalist speaks about how people confuse science with other stuff, for example the government or certain brands.

But science is no brand. Science is a process, a way of thinking. It's not Psychiatry itself that wants to control developments in our society. Psychiatry just wants to investigate into human psychological illnesses. The problem is that people use Psychiatry and Psychology to manipulate people. But we should never take this as a reason for rejecting them as a science.

The video: http://www.ted.com/talks/michael_specter_the_danger_of_science_denial

muir

25-04-14, 12:55 PM

With the help pf psychiatry and their imaginary mental disorders, they can internate any "patient" in seconds into a mental asylum, and they have all the motives to do so, because they have invented the mental diseases. At this moment, everything is ok. But in the future years, all this job they done with DSV-5 and all their diagnosis, will show its true color. This is alsp history, nazi history and even American history. Its just that people are to blind to see where these things are going.

Absolutely man....a lot of people are not facing upto this at the moment

There is ample evidence rise of a police state but many people are ignoring it. Its easy to see now how groups like the nazis grabbed power....most people just had their heads in the sand

muir

25-04-14, 01:07 PM

I posted once a video in the Vaccines debate thread, a TED talk where a journalist speaks about how people confuse science with other stuff, for example the government or certain brands.

But science is no brand. Science is a process, a way of thinking. It's not Psychiatry itself that wants to control developments in our society. Psychiatry just wants to investigate into human psychological illnesses. The problem is that people use Psychiatry and Psychology to manipulate people. But we should never take this as a reason for rejecting them as a science.

The video: http://www.ted.com/talks/michael_specter_the_danger_of_science_denial

You can't generalise like that

Each psychiatrist will have a different agenda

Also different interest groups from outside of psychiatry will want to use psychiatry to augment their arguments. So the powerful people who want to control society will pay psychiatrists who are sensitive to their cause and fund and publish their research so that they can skew the figures in a way that provides a favourable 'study' to support their argument that we should all be controlled by them

This is why there are always scientists on both sides of all debates all supplying their 'evidence'

Not all scientists just want to explore and discover for the sake of science and/or the greater good of humanity...some have agendas. Look at nazi experimentation in the camps. Look at all the human experimentation done by the CIA and US government....its all been harmful to people and it is being done to find effective ways to harm society as a whole

Concerning rejecting them as a science....i think there are discearnable patterns and that the bigger the sample the more credibilty the existence of a pattern gains but there are also many factors as to what cause certain patterns that the scientists might not acknowledge

For example some people look at big corporations and say they are 'successful' when they announce big profits. But they don't take into account the externalities for example the effect of the corporation on the environment or on people...it doesn't factor those in

Another example would be the inflation figures that get published in the corporate media. The indexes they use to calculate inflation don't take into account food or energy which are two of the most important things to the guy and gal on the street. Any regular person on the street can observe with their own eyes that the costs of food and energy are going UP but the 'scientific' data of the corporate media (which is skewed) argues there is no or little inflation

It's all very complex...things aren't always as they appear on the surface

You could do a psychological happiness study on people from two areas. You could then publish that data and say ''look these people in this area are drastically less happy then the people from this area''. You could then use that study to justify major socio-political and economic restructuring of that area

However if the unhappy group had just been involved in a war several years earlier that alone would account for the lower levels of happiness and the restructuring might be totally unjustified and actually damaging to the people

So there are many factors to consider and 'science' can be easily skewed to fit the interests of interest groups

LucyJr

25-04-14, 01:23 PM

I posted once a video in the Vaccines debate thread, a TED talk where a journalist speaks about how people confuse science with other stuff, for example the government or certain brands.

But science is no brand. Science is a process, a way of thinking. It's not Psychiatry itself that wants to control developments in our society. Psychiatry just wants to investigate into human psychological illnesses. The problem is that people use Psychiatry and Psychology to manipulate people. But we should never take this as a reason for rejecting them as a science.

The video: http://www.ted.com/talks/michael_specter_the_danger_of_science_denial
A way of thinking is a philosophy, not a science.
Science is something very specific.

DonTaushMe

25-04-14, 03:32 PM

When i was tyring to find various articles online about the 'extrovert ideal' one of the random sites i cam across was a design site. That site was obviously looking at our society through the lens of design...as in designing spaces for living. The article there was making the point that the way our public living spaces are designed are made that way to suit extroverts

That's a pretty random example of what i'm talking about but i think it shows in how many ways the pressure can be upped on certain types

I have spoken about capitalism here a lot and about how i think it degrades people. When i graduated and was thinking about what i want to do for a living i ran through many different possible career options. What i noticed when i looked into various areas was that even jobs that looked like they were good honest jobs on the surface where actually bent out of shape by the system to forward the systems agenda.

One of the key criteria for me in job hunting is that i didn't want to do anything that screwed over other people in any way. When you factor externalities into jobs as well to take into account their direct and indirect affect on the world it actually drastically reduces the number of jobs in a capitalist society that were then suitable.

What i'm saying is that a system that is totally based around PROFIT has a habit of degrading everything else and anyone who engages with it

It's not a system for conscientious people. Now you could look at the figures i posted above about the earnings of different types and you could say ''well the INFJ's aren't doing so great'' but is that because INFJ's aren't smart or is it because INFJ's have taken less well paid jobs in order to live in accordance with their ideals?

So you could judge 'success' in purely monetary terms and say ''INFJ's aren't particularly successful'' or you could apply a whole different criteria to success. You could for example value other things such as: spirituality (how spiritually fulfilled do different types feel?), happiness, health, family life, inner peace, usefulness to society, how much they help other people, how little do they damage the planet etc

If you worked by that different criteria you might suddenly see INFJ's as highly successful people.

But we don't as a society think that way....the dominant culture is a PROFIT based system and that is why we have all the problems we do and the constant war and strife and so on. Our society is riddled with problems...it's not 'successful'

I don't think viewing things this way is 'crazy'...i think putting profit before everything else is crazy

K, what that entire explanation says to me is 'I am financially unsuccessful and it is the systems fault.' You don't want to play by the rules, you don't understand how playing by the rules can open doors for you to get to where you actually want to be, and because you don't want to you are unsuccessful and somehow it is to no fault of your own. That is what that entire explanation says to me and I have a huge problem with that.

Where I have even more of a problem with this is that I know kids who think this way, they think 'jobs hurt others, I refuse to do that' and what they do is they have their hands in the parents pockets and live the rest of their life piling up debt on their parents. That kid I loath, he has only his mother who pays for everything. That woman is in piles of debt because of all of her kids, but mostly him. He chose to go to a trade school because he wasn't cutting it in a normal college. Now that's all fine and well, he has a degree, however his mother carries that 100+ thousand dollars of debt. When he gets a job he doesn't pay her back, he buy toys and gadgets and crap for himself. So while he doesn't want to hurt others, he is crippling his mother.

If you don't want to hurt others, go be Amish. Farm your own food, make your own cloths, build your own shelter and rely on yourself -that is a sure fire way to not hurt others. However, you wont ever do that because you have the internet, you have distractions and you enjoy them. How you get your money and who you lean on in that process, I don't want to know. From the sounds of it, what I can gather on who you are as a person, I don't respect you.

No those are your words not mine. I didn't say people in general would fear INFJ's

I do however think the people who engineer our society are threatened by INFJ's yes....because we don't fit so well into their nice neat tidy boxes. In that film 'divergent' the 'divergent' people are exterminated because they don't fit into any of the 5 narrow factions

People's perceptions ARE shaped by their culture however and if they are told that divergent people are a threat to society then they will end up self policing their fellow citizens

"I do however think the people who engineer our society are threatened by INFJ's yes" -this is what I mean by you saying that people fear INFJs as this is the only set of people you seem to talk about. The end result is you think others think you are a threat to them. This is delusional thinking.

Well.....talking from my own experience INFJ's only step up into a leadership role when people are struggling and directionless...an INFJ will then step up into the void and be accepted in that role. Otherwise they prefer to quietly but steadily work from the sidelines

They are not sharp elbowed

So i think people in general only listen to INFJ's in a leadership role when they are lost and kind of desperate. So look at Ghandi....he was just a lawyer but when the people got desperate enough that the fear of reprisals for their actions was outweighed by their current misery then they developed the political WILL to act and at that point they were willing to listen to an INFJ who knew the lay of the land and was able to eloquently set it out for people

I stepped up into a leadership role in my work place in a crisis even though i was one of the most junior people there. Before that it hadn't even crossed my mind to do that; before that I just quietly and respectfully went about my business. But when the crisis struck everyone was in a lot of fear and distress but no one knew what to do. I had some clear understanding of what was going on and what we could do about it and something inside me pushed me forward at that point when before that my natural instinct was to hang back and let others step forward. I filled the boots when it needed to be done and stepped back again when it was over

In this apocalyptic scenario you have devised, INFJs would step up and be leaders because people would be struggling to understand. There is no 'well' or 'but' to that. You have painted a scenario, I have told you the reality of what would happen.

And do you really think people didn't admire Gandhi before his legacy? That they didn't know him as Gandhi the lawyer -or just Gandhi- before hand? People will follow those they admire. Gandhi didn't just arrive out of thin air. People didn't just suddenly come together 'we need a leader we need a leader' and grabbed the first guy they saw. If you are not someone people admire, people will not follow you. Gandhi was someone people admired well before his legacy and continue to well after.

Most INFJ's aren't trying to take a leadership role...they do it if it needs to be done

The people trying to take leadership roles are the sharp elbowed types who are all confidence and little ability; to see examples of that type watch 'the apprentice' on TV...you'll see lots of people whos confidence outweighs their ability...or to quote a line from one of the cheesiest films ever made: ''their ego's writing checks their body can't cash''

Again, I was referencing your scenario. I know INFJs hang back.

Well we're agreed on that point

But the point i was making is that in our society there are places where decisions are made that have a massive impact on our society. If we want those decisions to be made in a way that is going to be good for society then we need to make sure ALL the personality types are represented in those places

However that's not the case because things like psychometric testing prevent people getting in the door and anyone who can slip through the psychometric testing net will then be destroyed by the culture within that place that has been created to be a toxic environment for some types

See recent film 'the wolf of wallstreet' to get an idea of how a culture can be created in a place

An environment is only as toxic as you make it. If you choose to believe this, if you choose to rule yourself with these kinds of devastating ideals, you choose to cripple yourself. Your potential in what you could do in life will not come to anywhere near what it could be, that is your own fault. It is not 'I'm here and I see injustice so I don't want to play anymore' this is life. You see injustice, fix it! You don't know how to fix it? Look it up! The internet is right in front of you, answers are all around you. If you CHOOSE to have this marginalized idea of what life is and how you can't do anything to help it, you wont ever help it. And this is what you have chosen. This is not the fault of society or your parents or some deity, this is on you. You can go around blaming others for the rest of your life for how unhappy you are and how stuck you think you are but it wont un-stick you, it wont make you a happier person, and people will go away from you.

sprinkles

25-04-14, 10:54 PM

I raged 10/10 would post again

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9SboyoievYU

Basildon

26-04-14, 08:59 AM

I'm not your monkey. Watch the video and learn my perspective for yourself instead of listening to fools.Or muppet even! Your videos are very interesting DJ. The rant about INFJ impostors is quite hilarious! I try to mimic the way you start it but for the life of me, I cannot keep a straight face. I see hyperbole in some of your comments. These are good to really emphasize differences in regards to functions. I think some take this stuff too seriously. I am always reminded of Bruce Lee's comments of being like water when it comes to what we assimilate internally. We must guard it vigorously, but never be afraid to revisit and revise, even if it shakes the construct. Sadly, truth and logic is not the ultimate aim of the human brain...survival is, and it will do what it feels necessary to ensure that what we hold internally will make the external world inhabitable and sensible. In that way, it conspires against us every waking moment and in every interaction with the external world. Like the tussle between Superego and id, Ni and Ti, thinking vs feeling.

Your observations on Se and INFJ were interesting and it has thrown me back into further study of the functions for both INFP and INFJ. I have tested all INFJ in MMDI, MBTI, Keirsey over the years...studied the Enneagram through Daniho, Helen Palmer, Dr. Naranjo, Karen Horney, Riso and Hudson, SimilarMinds...but a further study of Se has virtually sealed it for me, though since it is an inductive process, one will never be absolutely certain that a type is a total match. I am currently compiling a long list of quirky things that I have done and still do. Everytime I notice something peculiar, I write it down.

I do find much more information now than was available ten years ago. It has become more refined and much more popular. It was no great thing to see yourself as INFJ back then, heck, hardly anyone even cared to know. Now it seems not unlike Enneagram 4 vs. 9, where the similarities seem so close that high self-awareness will be the only thing that finally cracks the code.

I do take umbrage on your video with the INFJ girl however. INFJ can be found in other places, but some don't really want to be found at all. The most introverted ones like myself would not be caught doing selfie videos. It would require too many "takes" to even contemplate, not to mention I would be a neurotic mess without MUCH preparation...like Richard Nixon, who actually prep'd himself for interactions with his staff. Fascinating President and a good study on how what is bad in a person can coopt what is good. Anyways, keep the videos coming on YouTube, they are appreciated.

muir

26-04-14, 10:07 AM

K, what that entire explanation says to me is 'I am financially unsuccessful and it is the systems fault.'

No i am financially successful and I doubt there are many people my age who are debt free like i am

You don't want to play by the rules,

Not true...it depends on the rule

you don't understand how playing by the rules can open doors for you to get to where you actually want to be, and because you don't want to you are unsuccessful and somehow it is to no fault of your own.

Lol no i think i AM successful. I have my own business, i own my home outright, i have two degrees, have lived a varied life, travelled the world and done things that would blow your mind

That is what that entire explanation says to me and I have a huge problem with that.

The problem is that you are projecting this image of this kid you know onto me

Where I have even more of a problem with this is that I know kids who think this way, they think 'jobs hurt others, I refuse to do that' and what they do is they have their hands in the parents pockets and live the rest of their life piling up debt on their parents.

I'm not a kid, i do not burden my parents in any way and i have never refused to do any jobs. I have done many many different jobs. I have washed dishes, cleaned old peoples dentures, wiped disabled peoples asses, shovelled shit, dug ditches and done manual work that would break most people in two and worked with convicted villains (legally of course!)

That kid I loath, he has only his mother who pays for everything.

Yeah..i'm not that kid so stop talking to me like i am. Also you said you thought that kid wasn't an INFJ so why do you keep bringing him up?

That woman is in piles of debt because of all of her kids, but mostly him. He chose to go to a trade school because he wasn't cutting it in a normal college. Now that's all fine and well, he has a degree, however his mother carries that 100+ thousand dollars of debt. When he gets a job he doesn't pay her back, he buy toys and gadgets and crap for himself. So while he doesn't want to hurt others, he is crippling his mother.

He should repay his mum...however at the same time i am not going to blind myself to the fact that the world that young folk are growing up in now is very different to the world we and the previous generation grew up in. There are less job opportunites for a start and the housing bubble has put house prices out of reach for many first time buyers.

If you don't want to hurt others, go be Amish. Farm your own food, make your own cloths, build your own shelter and rely on yourself -that is a sure fire way to not hurt others.

You don't have to be amish to do that and i DO do certain things already and am working on going entriely off grid. There are certain systemic blocks to that though. For example the planning department here is very much against wooden homes which it calls in its literature 'shacks'

This is nonsesne though as many countries around the world have beautiful wooden vernacular architecture. The real reason they don't want people to build wooden homes here is because they are CHEAP and they want people hooked into 20-30 year mortgages because this is a debt based economy

In the US they are even stopping people using solar power and collecting their own rainwater. You need to understand that the corporations do not want people to be self sufficient...they want everyone dependent on the corporations and that is what they bribe the politicians to legislate to achieve

However, you wont ever do that because you have the internet, you have distractions and you enjoy them.

Nonsense, don't tell me what i will and won't do you know nothing about me

How you get your money and who you lean on in that process, I don't want to know. From the sounds of it, what I can gather on who you are as a person, I don't respect you.

My work is sustainable and vital to the society i live in. I don't 'lean' on anyone

"I do however think the people who engineer our society are threatened by INFJ's yes" -this is what I mean by you saying that people fear INFJs as this is the only set of people you seem to talk about. The end result is you think others think you are a threat to them. This is delusional thinking.

There is nothing delusional about my thinking.

If you watch the videos i post here you will find that there are some extremely intelligent, extremely qualified and extremely well informed and experienced people all saying the things i am saying....it's just that the corproate media doesn't give them a voice because what they are saying goes against the corporate agenda

In this apocalyptic scenario you have devised, INFJs would step up and be leaders because people would be struggling to understand. There is no 'well' or 'but' to that. You have painted a scenario, I have told you the reality of what would happen.

I think INFJ's ARE stepping up...i post their stuff here all the time

And do you really think people didn't admire Gandhi before his legacy? That they didn't know him as Gandhi the lawyer -or just Gandhi- before hand? People will follow those they admire. Gandhi didn't just arrive out of thin air. People didn't just suddenly come together 'we need a leader we need a leader' and grabbed the first guy they saw. If you are not someone people admire, people will not follow you. Gandhi was someone people admired well before his legacy and continue to well after.

No he wasn't even living in India for much of his legal career...he was living in africa.

He stepped up because he knew how the imperial game was played and was able to articulate that to people

Again, I was referencing your scenario. I know INFJs hang back.

An environment is only as toxic as you make it.

So it was the jews that made the concentration camps toxic?

You are living in another world to me

If you choose to believe this, if you choose to rule yourself with these kinds of devastating ideals, you choose to cripple yourself.

I am not crippled. I have achieved everything i have set out to acheive so far and i'm not done yet

Your potential in what you could do in life will not come to anywhere near what it could be, that is your own fault. It is not 'I'm here and I see injustice so I don't want to play anymore' this is life. You see injustice, fix it! You don't know how to fix it? Look it up! The internet is right in front of you, answers are all around you. If you CHOOSE to have this marginalized idea of what life is and how you can't do anything to help it, you wont ever help it. And this is what you have chosen. This is not the fault of society or your parents or some deity, this is on you. You can go around blaming others for the rest of your life for how unhappy you are and how stuck you think you are but it wont un-stick you, it wont make you a happier person, and people will go away from you.

I'm not unhappy...except about the wider problems out there

You are in a different world to me if you can't see the problems out there. What do you think people are protesting about everywhere?

This situation isn't going to get better, its going to get worse

I am already doing things differently in my life to try and be the change i want to see in the world (as ghandi would say) and i will implement even more changes in time

You seem to have this image of me in your head as being like this young kid you are talking about...you hav even condescendingly called me 'kid'

muir

26-04-14, 10:12 AM

Or muppet even! Your videos are very interesting DJ. The rant about INFJ impostors is quite hilarious! I try to mimic the way you start it but for the life of me, I cannot keep a straight face. I see hyperbole in some of your comments. These are good to really emphasize differences in regards to functions. I think some take this stuff too seriously. I am always reminded of Bruce Lee's comments of being like water when it comes to what we assimilate internally. We must guard it vigorously, but never be afraid to revisit and revise, even if it shakes the construct. Sadly, truth and logic is not the ultimate aim of the human brain...survival is, and it will do what it feels necessary to ensure that what we hold internally will make the external world inhabitable and sensible. In that way, it conspires against us every waking moment and in every interaction with the external world. Like the tussle between Superego and id, Ni and Ti, thinking vs feeling.

Your observations on Se and INFJ were interesting and it has thrown me back into further study of the functions for both INFP and INFJ. I have tested all INFJ in MMDI, MBTI, Keirsey over the years...studied the Enneagram through Daniho, Helen Palmer, Dr. Naranjo, Karen Horney, Riso and Hudson, SimilarMinds...but a further study of Se has virtually sealed it for me, though since it is an inductive process, one will never be absolutely certain that a type is a total match. I am currently compiling a long list of quirky things that I have done and still do. Everytime I notice something peculiar, I write it down.

I do find much more information now than was available ten years ago. It has become more refined and much more popular. It was no great thing to see yourself as INFJ back then, heck, hardly anyone even cared to know. Now it seems not unlike Enneagram 4 vs. 9, where the similarities seem so close that high self-awareness will be the only thing that finally cracks the code.

I do take umbrage on your video with the INFJ girl however. INFJ can be found in other places, but some don't really want to be found at all. The most introverted ones like myself would not be caught doing selfie videos. It would require too many "takes" to even contemplate, not to mention I would be a neurotic mess without MUCH preparation...like Richard Nixon, who actually prep'd himself for interactions with his staff. Fascinating President and a good study on how what is bad in a person can coopt what is good. Anyways, keep the videos coming on YouTube, they are appreciated.

Bruce Lee did talk about being like the water...but his core personality was probably fairly set

If it wasn't he wouldn't have maintained the discipline to train and diet the way he did

Kung fu talks about adapting by meeting hard energy with soft and soft energy with hard hence flowing like the water

DonTaushMe

26-04-14, 03:06 PM

No i am financially successful and I doubt there are many people my age who are debt free like i am

Not true...it depends on the rule

Lol no i think i AM successful. I have my own business, i own my home outright, i have two degrees, have lived a varied life, travelled the world and done things that would blow your mind

The problem is that you are projecting this image of this kid you know onto me

I'm not a kid, i do not burden my parents in any way and i have never refused to do any jobs. I have done many many different jobs. I have washed dishes, cleaned old peoples dentures, wiped disabled peoples asses, shovelled shit, dug ditches and done manual work that would break most people in two and worked with convicted villains (legally of course!)

Yeah..i'm not that kid so stop talking to me like i am. Also you said you thought that kid wasn't an INFJ so why do you keep bringing him up?

He should repay his mum...however at the same time i am not going to blind myself to the fact that the world that young folk are growing up in now is very different to the world we and the previous generation grew up in. There are less job opportunites for a start and the housing bubble has put house prices out of reach for many first time buyers.

You don't have to be amish to do that and i DO do certain things already and am working on going entriely off grid. There are certain systemic blocks to that though. For example the planning department here is very much against wooden homes which it calls in its literature 'shacks'

This is nonsesne though as many countries around the world have beautiful wooden vernacular architecture. The real reason they don't want people to build wooden homes here is because they are CHEAP and they want people hooked into 20-30 year mortgages because this is a debt based economy

In the US they are even stopping people using solar power and collecting their own rainwater. You need to understand that the corporations do not want people to be self sufficient...they want everyone dependent on the corporations and that is what they bribe the politicians to legislate to achieve

Nonsense, don't tell me what i will and won't do you know nothing about me

My work is sustainable and vital to the society i live in. I don't 'lean' on anyone

There is nothing delusional about my thinking.

If you watch the videos i post here you will find that there are some extremely intelligent, extremely qualified and extremely well informed and experienced people all saying the things i am saying....it's just that the corproate media doesn't give them a voice because what they are saying goes against the corporate agenda

I think INFJ's ARE stepping up...i post their stuff here all the time

No he wasn't even living in India for much of his legal career...he was living in africa.

He stepped up because he knew how the imperial game was played and was able to articulate that to people

So it was the jews that made the concentration camps toxic?

You are living in another world to me

I am not crippled. I have achieved everything i have set out to acheive so far and i'm not done yet

I'm not unhappy...except about the wider problems out there

You are in a different world to me if you can't see the problems out there. What do you think people are protesting about everywhere?

This situation isn't going to get better, its going to get worse

I am already doing things differently in my life to try and be the change i want to see in the world (as ghandi would say) and i will implement even more changes in time

You seem to have this image of me in your head as being like this young kid you are talking about...you hav even condescendingly called me 'kid'

I call people kid when I don't respect them.

You know the phrase 'actions are louder than words?' Well I have seen no actions from you, only read your words and you have many, all of which give the impression you are some conspiracy fanatic who spends all his time online screaming 'the end is nigh!' I do not know you in real life, though I don't believe your life is what you say it is and won't. You may be able to prove some of these things to me however you won't. From what I can tell the time you spend online on this forum is in debates about how you think the world is going to end, or is ending. I'm not going to believe a man I don't respect. And that is why I call you kid.

And don't even begin to compare yourself with Jews in concentration camps, you are not someone locked up being tortured, you are torturing yourself with your bat crazy irrational imagination. Spend all this time looking up reason to support your conspiracy claims, have you gone outside and talked to the people? Do you care to hear their story if it is not in tune with your own? Don't answer these questions to me, I'm done with this conversation. I don't need to indulge you with some brash fantasy you have of me telling you 'it's ok, I understand and I agree' because I don't agree yet I understand all too well and will never respect people like you.

And I bring up that kid who claims he is an INFJ because he is pathetic and reminds me of you. Whether you two are both actually INFJs, god I hope not.

I won't be responding to anymore of your posts after this. We can both thank me for that.

muir

26-04-14, 08:42 PM

I call people kid when I don't respect them.

You know the phrase 'actions are louder than words?' Well I have seen no actions from you, only read your words and you have many, all of which give the impression you are some conspiracy fanatic who spends all his time online screaming 'the end is nigh!' I do not know you in real life, though I don't believe your life is what you say it is and won't. You may be able to prove some of these things to me however you won't. From what I can tell the time you spend online on this forum is in debates about how you think the world is going to end, or is ending. I'm not going to believe a man I don't respect. And that is why I call you kid.

And don't even begin to compare yourself with Jews in concentration camps, you are not someone locked up being tortured, you are torturing yourself with your bat crazy irrational imagination. Spend all this time looking up reason to support your conspiracy claims, have you gone outside and talked to the people? Do you care to hear their story if it is not in tune with your own? Don't answer these questions to me, I'm done with this conversation. I don't need to indulge you with some brash fantasy you have of me telling you 'it's ok, I understand and I agree' because I don't agree yet I understand all too well and will never respect people like you.

And I bring up that kid who claims he is an INFJ because he is pathetic and reminds me of you. Whether you two are both actually INFJs, god I hope not.

I won't be responding to anymore of your posts after this. We can both thank me for that.

Of course you've seen no actions from me...i'm talking to you over the internet

I have no reason to lie to you

I'm actually optomistic about the world...but only if people can pull their heads out of their butts

But you seem a little confused. First of all you start talking to me like im this person who has nothing in common with me and calling me 'kid' and referring to the other person as 'kid' and then you start criticising me because you haven't seen any of the things i've done in my life. Also i did not compare myself to the jews in the concentration camps...i said they did not make their envrionment toxic (the nazis did) to show how youre statement that we make our environment what it is is incorrect...sometimes we do and sometimes other people make the environment what it is

Bizarre

I'm glad you're bowing out of the thread though you don't seem to have anything meaningful to say...just lots of venom

If any of you have watched EJArendee's videos, you will realize that the OP has created a complete 180 degree inversion of the truth. EJArendee likes INFJs and INFPs. His thoughts on type in his ideas have also evolved a great deal over time.

vandyke

27-04-14, 07:57 PM

If any of you have watched EJArendee's videos, you will realize that the OP has created a complete 180 degree inversion of the truth. EJArendee likes INFJs and INFPs. His thoughts on type in his ideas have also evolved a great deal over time.

This! I've seen him speaking positively about INFJ's and INFP's multiple times.

muir

27-04-14, 08:24 PM

If any of you have watched EJArendee's videos, you will realize that the OP has created a complete 180 degree inversion of the truth. EJArendee likes INFJs and INFPs. His thoughts on type in his ideas have also evolved a great deal over time.

'evolved over time'

So the OP is not necessarily wrong about what has been said in the past?

muir

27-04-14, 08:51 PM

I remember this video coming out after the one that caused the initial reaction on this forum (the thread of which i can't find)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Sg4auiUt2-o

Where he is very critical of INFJ's dogs!

niffer

27-04-14, 09:40 PM

The few points that the OP made which were true were taken out of context so that they were twisted 180. For instance, what he said about EJ saying he would eat testicles or whatever if he were an INFJ, was in regards to some commenters who were pinning EJArendee's type as INFJ. EJ, in saying that, meant that it would be crazy for him to be an INFJ in an "If __ then I'll eat my hat" way--not that INFJs eat nuts or would be "gay". So, completely taken out of context in order to fabricate a negative image.

Some of the things he posts about INFJs are tongue-in-cheek, like in that 'INFJs...why' video. They are not meant to spread hate. They are meant as a gentle tease done in humour to highlight his own opinion and impression of INFJs, since he in fact really likes INFJs; that fact has pretty much been a focal point of his entire channel. That video is the one time he's yanked on the pigtails of the girl he likes, figuratively. This is not the only type he's made videos or comments about in this manner either--he has done this with every single type. His views on type have also evolved over time...not that he has ever talked about disliking INFJs or thinking poorly of them, but the point is that his views aren't set in stone and have evolved a lot over several years (which EJ, by the way, has announced in his channel's videos multiple times recently), and the OP's points, on top of being baseless, were all fixated upon his older videos.

muir

27-04-14, 10:08 PM

The few points that the OP made which were true were taken out of context so that they were twisted 180. For instance, what he said about EJ saying he would eat testicles or whatever if he were an INFJ, was in regards to some commenters who were pinning EJArendee's type as INFJ. EJ, in saying that, meant that it would be crazy for him to be an INFJ in an "If __ then I'll eat my hat" way--not that INFJs eat nuts or would be "gay". So, completely taken out of context in order to fabricate a negative image.

Some of the things he posts about INFJs are tongue-in-cheek, like in that 'INFJs...why' video. They are not meant to spread hate. They are meant as a gentle tease done in humour to highlight his own opinion and impression of INFJs, since he in fact really likes INFJs; that fact has pretty much been a focal point of his entire channel. That video is the one time he's yanked on the pigtails of the girl he likes, figuratively. This is not the only type he's made videos or comments about in this manner either--he has done this with every single type. His views on type have also evolved over time...not that he has ever talked about disliking INFJs or thinking poorly of them, but the point is that his views aren't set in stone and have evolved a lot over several years (which EJ, by the way, has announced in his channel's videos multiple times recently), and the OP's points, on top of being baseless, were all fixated upon his older videos.

I'm not wanting to give Djrandee a hard time. Its like i said to him i have mostly been speaking about the other aspect of the OP's comment which were relating to general prejudice against certain types (eg the whole 'extrovert ideal' thing)

niffer

27-04-14, 10:20 PM

Ok.

dogman6126

09-05-14, 09:57 AM

Holy cow. Ok first I know I'm new and all but I just saw this and I have to say something. I admit I haven't read every comment here considering how long it is but I have read the last page or two. Muir your an excellent debater and obviously quick witted, but I'm sorry to say that many of your comments are either skewed or biased. Some of your comments, like the one that niffer pointed out are borderline political in the sense that you are using the information in a way simply to get your point across. You paint such a scary and worrisome picture that people get caught up in that and miss the faulty details your assumptions are based on. Its clever and its wrong. However, I'm not going to turn this into a discussion about what you have discussed (as I have no intention to sit here and read that for 2 hours just so I am up to speed on what has been covered), and so I will simply focus on your last statement. Personally I have never heard of any prejudice against certain types, but that isn't to say that it doesn't exist. However to make my point, you say that you are talking about where the OP was about these supposed prejudices? Well as was pointed out previously, the OP had the prejudices wrong and mistook them when they were really just a kind of "funning around". After that the OP used those false conclusions to weave his doomsday scenario. Even when presented with this evidence, you go so far as to say "So the OP is not necessarily wrong about what has been said in the past?" as if attempting to imply that he is still right in spite of that. Ok sure if you want to say that then yes, the words were stated in the past. What he WAS wrong about was the intent his comment portrayed the words. He made them sound in a bad light when that was not the intent it seems. It is a basic case of out of context. A good example for this is something I've learned living on a college campus with so many international students. One time when I was walking down a sidewalk, a forigen student was on the phone and I overheard him say the n word used as in the n word usually used as an insult against African Americans. But here's the thing. In his language (found this out from a friend) that word actually is the same as the English word "uh". Its coincidence its the same sound. There was one time when a forigen student was giving a speech and kept on saying the n-word (he didn't realize it but of course it was comical to my friend who was watching) but its meaning was uh. Not an insult. In the case you are describing, it sounds to me like the guy was making a joke video (based on the past comments of niffer and Vandyke), and then you took the words in the wrong context. And its also ok that this mistake was made. its a very common mistake in todays day and age with all of this technology and such diverse concepts of humor. However it does not seem to be that there is some repeat of the Nazis persecution of the jews about to repeat with INFJ's and the government.

muir

09-05-14, 10:23 AM

Holy cow. Ok first I know I'm new and all but I just saw this and I have to say something. I admit I haven't read every comment here considering how long it is but I have read the last page or two. Muir your an excellent debater and obviously quick witted, but I'm sorry to say that many of your comments are either skewed or biased. Some of your comments, like the one that niffer pointed out are borderline political in the sense that you are using the information in a way simply to get your point across. You paint such a scary and worrisome picture that people get caught up in that and miss the faulty details your assumptions are based on. Its clever and its wrong. However, I'm not going to turn this into a discussion about what you have discussed (as I have no intention to sit here and read that for 2 hours just so I am up to speed on what has been covered), and so I will simply focus on your last statement. Personally I have never heard of any prejudice against certain types, but that isn't to say that it doesn't exist. However to make my point, you say that you are talking about where the OP was about these supposed prejudices? Well as was pointed out previously, the OP had the prejudices wrong and mistook them when they were really just a kind of "funning around". After that the OP used those false conclusions to weave his doomsday scenario. Even when presented with this evidence, you go so far as to say "So the OP is not necessarily wrong about what has been said in the past?" as if attempting to imply that he is still right in spite of that. Ok sure if you want to say that then yes, the words were stated in the past. What he WAS wrong about was the intent his comment portrayed the words. He made them sound in a bad light when that was not the intent it seems. It is a basic case of out of context. A good example for this is something I've learned living on a college campus with so many international students. One time when I was walking down a sidewalk, a forigen student was on the phone and I overheard him say the n word used as in the n word usually used as an insult against African Americans. But here's the thing. In his language (found this out from a friend) that word actually is the same as the English word "uh". Its coincidence its the same sound. There was one time when a forigen student was giving a speech and kept on saying the n-word (he didn't realize it but of course it was comical to my friend who was watching) but its meaning was uh. Not an insult. In the case you are describing, it sounds to me like the guy was making a joke video (based on the past comments of niffer and Vandyke), and then you took the words in the wrong context. And its also ok that this mistake was made. its a very common mistake in todays day and age with all of this technology and such diverse concepts of humor. However it does not seem to be that there is some repeat of the Nazis persecution of the jews about to repeat with INFJ's and the government.

That's a fairly lengthy response which must have taken you a bit of time to compose and write yet you say you haven't read all of the thread

Perhaps you could familiarise yourself more with the thread before we discuss it so that i don't have to repeat myself?

dogman6126

09-05-14, 07:17 PM

Like I said, I have read the last page, a few on the second to last, and the first page of responses. That way to try to get the initial information and the most recent. To read just that and consider what was meant took my probably half an hour or more. by that trend I predict the rest of the pages would take between an hour and a half to two hours. It's faster to write a lengthy response than it is to read and understand several other lengthy responses. That's why I just tried to address the immediate concern in this thread.
Perhaps after next week I will look deeper into your past comments. I have final exams right now and I really need to stop procrastinating on my philosophy final paper.....:(
:m102:

dogman6126

09-05-14, 07:18 PM

Not to mention I don't want to turn this into me picking at your points you made several pages ago....That would get annoying for both of us I would expect, and I don't want to be annoying :)

FWanjW

23-01-15, 10:27 AM

11

FWanjW

23-01-15, 10:46 AM

I know! That preciseness/accuracy of results...you have got to respect that. It's not the Law. But I can now have compassion toward myself/others on certain stuff, but at the same time...I have no excuse on why I can't work on other stuff because other INFJ tell me what works for them.

Alomoes

25-01-15, 10:34 PM

Nope I'm not reading eight pages of reactions either.

It seems he's being a 6w5 right now. That means he's stressed. :C

As someone who believes in socionics more than MBTI, I do find it annoying converting back and forth, but if INFp=INFJ, what is there to rage about? But my question is how many people here aren't INFp? That is when I get annoyed. People who are pretty much lying about who they are as people. Now, if it is lying to themselves, I'm more ok with that, as that is a stage of development, and cannot be helped. Hence why I take little to no action on the matter.

I could easily be INTJ, although I don't think I am. If so, I am INTp Delta. Delta is serious. I'm not serious. Therefore I know of a mistype, but like all probable mistypes, I will not share and let said mistype figure it out on their own.

Lady Shiori

22-03-15, 05:38 PM

I'm not going to write-off the product of this guys intuitive framework

From what i know and have seen there are some valid points being made in the OP; they also tie into previous discussions made on the forum about discrimination against INFJ's for example discussions on the 'extrovert ideal' in our culture

I know for a fact that the USSR did accuse detractors of the state of havign psychological problems; our own western governments are now doing the same. They are using their DSM categorisation scheme to create new disorders, one of which is Oppositional Defiant Disorder (ODD)

Basically if you get upset when the government makes big changes they will class you as ODD and use that as a justification to lock you up without trial and drug you into submission

INFJ's are in the firing line for such treatment

Have you heard the saying about hammering down the nail that sticks out? Or cutting off the head of the flower that stands out etc

I also really liked what you've said on this subject regarding Socionics and the USSR. I was always confused as to where that convoluted system came from or what in the world it was for. Thank you for contributing to this particular thread. I really enjoyed all of your posts and found them very helpful and informative.

Trifoilum

23-03-15, 07:58 AM

BWAHA AHAHAHA AHAHAHAH AHAHA

BWAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAAHHAHAHAHAHA

Sorry. It's just...There might be reasons to believe some of the OP's truth,
or muir's truth,
but it's packed around a box of cray, it's hard to see the trees.

I won't go to muir's topics, because it's essentially8 pages of digression, but the OP is -too- affected if there ever is one.