What if a player puts it in her notes that he is fine being put in adversarial plots with other players?

N is right! I've tried pitting 2 players from 2 hated enemy dieties against each other. They both got super pissed! You'd think it would be reasonable from the 10,000 foot view, but the up close view is that many players are very protective of their PC's prerogatives to choose direction.

To do an epic PK plot, it really takes a lot of trust between players and trust with the imm running the plot. Trust that the other player won't be a jerk, trust that the imm will be fair, that the plot will be fair, or even if the plot isn't fair, trust that the plot will be awesome and that there will be fun & potentially rewards for great RP. That's a lot of trust

A better way to do it in my opinion is to open the door to a potentially awesome PK plot, and let the players decide to step through that door. Frankly, most don't. It's scary! Really!

(ok some of us still have PTSD from stabbage in the dark time before the dawn of RP )

well I think the example I gave, with the npcs that aunuit was after doing something that might put her in conflict with Raveena and Verbannon ccounts as an 'open door' rather than godmoding._________________PM me in the forum here when you want me on to RP or dungeon dive. The forum will automatically notify me by e-mail. Then my e-mail will send me a text message. Then I will get on likely within minutes.

Alright, I've been following this since Saide made the changes and taking the time to get my thoughts straightened out while seeing what peeps have to say. Some of what follows I'm guilty of as well and I'm not calling people out just saying that from what I've read here and my own experiences now and before when I was a heavy player it is what it is.

First off: To those saying that what Saide is doing isn't really going to change anything, you very well might be right as far as new players goes. But what I can definitely tell you is that when people pick up/return to/try out/etc a new game there are two things they look for more than almost anything else and that's an active player base(SG is a meh on that one right now) along with Dev support. Now a game with an amazingly active player base can survive with out dev support. There are some out there now that are like that. So would you rather Saide/Nienne/et al spend time making obvious, potentially "worthless" changes but showing that they are around, they are working, that they are listening to us and while maybe not doing everything we want/suggest but our opinions are wanted and heard which will be more likely to get new players to give SG a chance? Or just keep trying to pump out new areas in between code updates which takes a lot longer and doesn't exactly show that they dev support is there?
Realistically, a middle ground is best in the long run but if you keep ignoring those minor, pesky annoyances eventually they will stack up to the point of breaking you.

Regarding the Avataring: Yes, it is a thankless job because you don't have the closeness of a regular group. You are limited in the type of shit you can throw at us, the players, because you or the players feel that you don't have the right to throw potential death our way. Personally, some of the best RP I ever took part in had the end result of me being nuked by an av. Just the way everything played out up to and including my death, it FIT. if that makes any sense. Unfortunately that's part of the problem with a non RL group with a figurative GM that isn't always there and not always party to things.

On the same vein, the idea that good plots aren't supposed to be about personal advancement, I call shenanigans. EVERY plot that a character can/will/has come up with is all about personal gain no matter the way it comes through and honestly, that's kind of the way it should be. I've seen so many plots that were intended by their PC creator to be small scale end up blown wide open because the AV running it dropped a hint or three, or some PC was paying attention in the right spot at the right time. Thing is, Player A comes up with random thought B, sends an AV mail and tries getting something rolling. They've now given you a hook, maybe it sucks but maybe it doesn't. Point being they've given you a hook for free the question is, as an avatar/dm, what do you do with it? Go along with it or go about finding ways to screw them over? A lot of which can be done without PK.

Regarding the backstabbing etc, sometimes that does happen within players involved in a plot. Some of the time it's even warranted(evil destroys itself etc), maybe two friends had a falling out between takes of the plot, they decide one has to do X with the plot instead of Y, whatever. Shit happens. For me, that's a perfect opportunity to screw with both/all sides and see what sort of things happen, especially whether when the shit hits the fans the PC's can balance the multitude of things that go into a true character.

Considering communication: You're right, this is something that has always been a problem since I've been around the game, though it seems a bit better now than ever before but I'm not sure if that's just because Saide is a verbose wench . Part of the problem stems from the fact that(at least back when) Avatars would claim a specific plot and really only they would work on it but if for some reason they weren't around for a minute then nothing could be done. An extension of that would be that players wouldn't always bother with AVmail and instead would send it to a specific one or two who they knew were around/got shit done/happened to like them/whatever. What this meant is continuity was an impossibility started by division of duty and exacerbated by players then finally done in my Av's not drawing a line and saying "anything that gets to a personal avatar mailbox from a player will be ignored" or whatever thus creating more of a reliance on Avatarmail and a sort of group cohesion with the avatar crew. THIS IS ON ALL SIDES. I'm not blaming those upstairs for this, nor the players. This is something that is on all of us and regardless of how you feel about her, Tsera is right. We are all here because we love this game, we love it for what it is but more importantly, we love it for what it represents. For most of us that is the escape, to be someone that isn't us who doesn't have life shitting on us day in/day out.

Another thing that I think all sides are kind of forgetting is that this isn't like a table top game. You can have the best ideas and intentions in the world of a specific plot but the world moves on around you between sessions. Todays friend, isn't a friend tomorrow even if they aren't against but that changes things. In what you do, who you rely on. All sorts of ways can and does that alter what was going on. We get so caught up in the moment and thinking in a certain fashion that when things happen that require a change we don't always react the way we want to or even in the tone we want to which results in people getting angry/hurt/frustrated and events going onto a random trajectory that no one planned for. This is especially bad for any plot point that was someones baby. You put in the time and the effort to make it shine for a specific purpose and something shifts it off into darkness. That's enough to make anyone get tilted. With SG/MUDs in general we have to be more willing to step back and look at things a little more objectively no matter how personal a project is simply because you can actually do secret stuff and thus get plots/major RP going with a dozen different players unlike the weekly game that is 4-6 people all sitting together and actively working together because more often than not you have years of friendship creating the baseline for cooperation. That isn't our world here. Work with it, run with it, take joy in it.

Nienne, in regards to having some kind of To do list that ya'll are working on: This goes back to the active dev support. We as players want to see that shit even if it does get us all hyped for something new coming down the pipe even though it's weeks/months/years down the line. We like to know what's coming and maybe have some impact especially if it's something super big(I'd imagine the conversations regarding the 2nd -> 3rd changeover were monumental). I came back for a number of reasons, mainly because I was without an RP outlet and very much missing it. But also because I would occasionally pop onto the website and keep seeing that "monks coming soon" notice.

We know that it wouldn't really be something comprehensive, nor should it be, especially because when things fall down and go boom they get moved up the list. But seeing the general idea behind things/directions being chosen for new/revamped content would be cool for older/returning players and show newer ones that things are being worked on.

Something that I think might help is having the staff not invisible all/most of the time. I get that you don't always have the time to chat and way back when being unhidden was an invitation to get bombarded with all sort s of questions/requests but it also falls into dev support. Just a thought. It might lower productivity but it would also show that things aren't quite as bad as they may seem, that you are there and will be there. If that makes any sense.

The reset idea:

I saw this being bandied about and took awhile to get around to it in my head, but really....WHY?!?

Those suggesting it, I'm genuinely curious as to what exactly you think this would accomplish. The way things are, those that want to RP most of the time would still be doing what they're doing with the added effort of redoing everything for little/no reason. Then you've got those that like to RP who will power up, slow down, power up etc. Finally you've got those who go about RP third or fourth in the list and hit 30+ in a week or two. A reset isn't going to change anything regarding that. Maybe, just maybe it might if a large enough people log in, new or old, but would that really cause them to change up their approach to the game from a level centric mentality to an RPcentric one?

Last edited by Craig on Tue Nov 22, 2016 5:04 pm; edited 1 time in total

A lot of good points and view, and a lot of ideas for us upstairsy people to ponder at.

While I agree with everyone that there are definitely some issues in need of fixing, and I hope that everyone reading this forum also realize that every person have their individual idea of whats wrong and how to fix that wrong!

This is why that Devs sometimes put his/her ideas to the test. As we realize that not everyone will be happy at everyone time and it is simply impossible to pursue every good idea. Due to both code & time restraints.

Now I am also interested in hearing what you think is good about the game?
Sometimes fixing a game, is not all about fixing the problem (I said not 'all' I know that problems need fixing). But also reinforcing the good part of the game?

I still play my character, simply because I enjoy the roleplay.
A ton of incredible creative players with good character plot is the driving force for me. Getting to know those character and see what stories they offer and now I can be part of it. And of course the occasional diablo-style grind when I am just 'relaxing'

If I were to see improvement on that front, I'd say we might work on finding a way, where large plots could be run with less Avatar involvement. We've all seen how a plot has come to a halt, due to a avatar being swallowed by real life, or his/her odd need for sleep!
so in short, make plots more player-driven, with Avatars as 'only' the GMs altering the surrounding games responses to the plot, and not the driving force on the plot.

I have been playing Shadowgate for a LONG time. I'm embarrassed at what I'm reading in this thread. You all know WAY too much about the inner workings of this game. Maybe if you just logged in and played, instead of worrying about formulas and the numbers behind things, you may actually enjoy the game better. Seems there's always the same few players that are OVERLY concerned about things. There's a difference between voicing your opinion and being annoying about it. The imms and god and admins and main persons involved in continuing the evolution of this game are well aware of changes that need to be made. Lets let them do it and stop whining so much. This thread should've been shut down three pages ago.

I always find it odd for people to insist that the game is a social game, when there are so many communication taboos.

SG has a really long history. If I remember correctly, and I admit I could be wrong here, but many of the rules date back to when Tristan was in charge. The issue he was concerned with was when people would log in all at the same time to PK people (or specific individual) from another guild. So if people were communicating via ICQ at the same time they were playing, they could organize a lot better and could directly trade OOC information without worrying about wiz/admins getting involved.

From another line of discussion, stopping trading 3rd party info might protect against RL harassment, and those rules also might better protect the mud from those kinds of issues. I suppose the conversation about trading 3rd party contact info could be revisited but this might give some context - and again I may not have right of this but its what memories serves.

And lastly - SG is definitely a social game - it's fun when other people log in! You never know what will happen!!

Best,
Myrkul

I can add some flavor here. Sg dates back to a time when internet was still in its infancy. Communication barriers were out in place partially to level the playing field between players, but also because there had been some nasty stuff going on, real actual physical stalking and credible death threats.

IMO these measures are outdated and should go, but we should allow people the option of staying anonymous if they wish.