It was pretty nasty. It's a play that might have drawn a fine from the NFL for "launching" at a defenseless WR. I know that it's not considered a dirty play, but man, especially as a catcher, I hate to see guys get away with that. It's the go-ahead run in the top of the 12th, I know you're doing everything you can to score that run...but it just doesn't seem fair.

At the very least, Cousins should expect to take one in the ribs. Which is more than a fair tradeoff for winning the ballgame.

You cannot help men permanently by doing for them what they could and should do for themselves-----Abe Lincoln

Let me tell you, if any of you douchebag empty headed stuffed suit nanny politicians tries to fuck with my bacon, I’m going after you like a crazed chimpanzee on bath salts. -----Lars

Like I said, I just have an issue with the way he launched himself into Posey. He could have gotten to the back of the plate with a lot less contact. I'm not saying it was a dirty play, I'm not saying he should be suspended or fined, I'm just saying that he could have gotten to the plate with less contact than he initiated.

You cannot help men permanently by doing for them what they could and should do for themselves-----Abe Lincoln

Let me tell you, if any of you douchebag empty headed stuffed suit nanny politicians tries to fuck with my bacon, I’m going after you like a crazed chimpanzee on bath salts. -----Lars

gotribe31 wrote:Like I said, I just have an issue with the way he launched himself into Posey. He could have gotten to the back of the plate with a lot less contact. I'm not saying it was a dirty play, I'm not saying he should be suspended or fined, I'm just saying that he could have gotten to the plate with less contact than he initiated.

And been out.

In my mind either it's clean or it's not. If you opt to try to knock the ball loose, there aren't a lot of options and it's a bang-bang type of a thing.

In the image below, Posey has the ball and Cousins has committed to knocking it loose. Where else could he have gone in this play and not been out? He goes for the back of the plate with a slide, Posey's got him dead to rights.

gotribe31 wrote:Like I said, I just have an issue with the way he launched himself into Posey. He could have gotten to the back of the plate with a lot less contact. I'm not saying it was a dirty play, I'm not saying he should be suspended or fined, I'm just saying that he could have gotten to the plate with less contact than he initiated.

And been out.

In my mind either it's clean or it's not. If you opt to try to knock the ball loose, there aren't a lot of options and it's a bang-bang type of a thing.

In the image below, Posey has the ball and Cousins has committed to knocking it loose. Where else could he have gone in this play and not been out? He goes for the back of the plate with a slide, Posey's got him dead to rights.

Well the ball is sitting next to his foot in that picture, so I'm not exactly sure what you're trying to say.

You cannot help men permanently by doing for them what they could and should do for themselves-----Abe Lincoln

Let me tell you, if any of you douchebag empty headed stuffed suit nanny politicians tries to fuck with my bacon, I’m going after you like a crazed chimpanzee on bath salts. -----Lars

gotribe31 wrote:Well the ball is sitting next to his foot in that picture, so I'm not exactly sure what you're trying to say.

You're correct, but how would the runner know this, and where exactly where you inferring he should have tried to go in differently?

The runner has to assume the catcher has the ball. At that point it doesn't really matter, he's committed to knocking the ball loose, and Posey is facing towards him to tag him, ball or no.

There's no middle ground in terms of knocking the ball loose. You go in hard at the catcher if he's blocking the plate. He did what most major leaguers would do, and Posey would probably tell you that it was a fair shot.

gotribe31 wrote:Well the ball is sitting next to his foot in that picture, so I'm not exactly sure what you're trying to say.

At full speed, the runner knows that?

Of course not.

Let me again state my point so that there's less confusion: it was not a dirty play. It was a legit baseball play. I never said otherwise. I'm simply saying that as someone who's been on the business end of more than one of those collisions, I'd like to see the runner make more of an effort to get to the plate and less of an effort to blow up the catcher. Posey was a foot in front of the plate, and if he'd caught the ball, Cousins would have likely been out. He'd have had a better chance of being safe if he'd have tried to get to the back of the plate on that play. It's really, really tough to actually dislodge the ball from the catcher if the ball beats the runner.

I'm sure you can argue that the threat of getting plowed over causes catcher's to be glancing up the line and sometimes missplay a ball, and I'd agree with that. Which is why it is a legit play. But if Cousins doesn't wear one the next time they play, I'd have a pretty serious issue with the Giants pitching staff.

You cannot help men permanently by doing for them what they could and should do for themselves-----Abe Lincoln

Let me tell you, if any of you douchebag empty headed stuffed suit nanny politicians tries to fuck with my bacon, I’m going after you like a crazed chimpanzee on bath salts. -----Lars

This was discussed on TCF board last year, with many good takes, but I can't find the thread. I'm not a fan of plate collisions, and in the face of years of baseball tradition, I am looking for change.

Blowing a guy up is the move of a defeated runner who made the mistake of misjudging his own speed vs. the position of the ball in play. I don't feel he should be allowed to make up for up his mental error with career-threatening physicality against the team that got him dead to rights. That's just my own personal view of the game.

I'm not saying lay-down, I'm not saying "no contact." But, when given a lane to the plate, you should be making an approach to the plate, not the catcher. Posey doesn't have the whole line cut off. This runner could have made an an approach to the plate with an angled slide of Little League difficulty.

Tangent: If these plays remain part of the game, when do catchers start to move up off the plate, or to the first base side and go 100% swipe tag or bust?

gotribe31 wrote:Well the ball is sitting next to his foot in that picture, so I'm not exactly sure what you're trying to say.

At full speed, the runner knows that?

Of course not.

Let me again state my point so that there's less confusion: it was not a dirty play. It was a legit baseball play. I never said otherwise. I'm simply saying that as someone who's been on the business end of more than one of those collisions, I'd like to see the runner make more of an effort to get to the plate and less of an effort to blow up the catcher. Posey was a foot in front of the plate, and if he'd caught the ball, Cousins would have likely been out. He'd have had a better chance of being safe if he'd have tried to get to the back of the plate on that play. It's really, really tough to actually dislodge the ball from the catcher if the ball beats the runner.

I'm sure you can argue that the threat of getting plowed over causes catcher's to be glancing up the line and sometimes missplay a ball, and I'd agree with that. Which is why it is a legit play. But if Cousins doesn't wear one the next time they play, I'd have a pretty serious issue with the Giants pitching staff.

There was no malice to intentionally harm Posey, and it was something that everyone including you thinks was a legit baseball play, and yet you would be disappointed if the Giants don't throw at him for it? It would make the Giants look like dicks.

You protect your guys against legitimate and intentional malice, not against a freak accident.

Cease wrote:Blowing a guy up is the move of a defeated runner who made the mistake of misjudging his own speed vs. the position of the ball in play. I don't feel he should be allowed to make up for up his mental error with career-threatening physicality against the team that got him dead to rights. That's just my own personal view of the game

How often do you see a guy send himself? How can you accuse a runner of "misjudging his own speed" when the base coach sent him?

It only comes up when a catcher gets hurt. When the catcher holds on and both guys are fine, it's a good baseball play. I know you're stating your personal opinion, but, the only reason this is even a discussion is because Posey got hurt.

Unfortunate. But for christ sake, we can't pussify every sport. If we were going to do that, Chinese checkers and Monopoly tournaments would be televised.

A God Damn dead man would understand that if a minor league bus in any city took a real sharp right turn, a Zack McCalister would likely fall out. - Lead Pipe

peeker643 wrote:I would today absolutely choose Santana over Posey. Not even close.

I almost came in and started this thread just to make that exact point last night at like 3AM.

Then I decided against being that much of a smart ass.

Good to see you don't hold yourself to the same lofty standards I hold myself to.

Who does?

But I didn't start the thread and never even thought about starting it.

I just took the easy money that was laying there.

Good chance neither of us have such lofty standards.

Actually, now that I think back on the last two months of watching Santana either jump back from anything on the inner half, swing through any breaking ball and hit about two bills over his last few hundred ABs, I might actually choose Posey even today.

Cease wrote:Blowing a guy up is the move of a defeated runner who made the mistake of misjudging his own speed vs. the position of the ball in play. I don't feel he should be allowed to make up for up his mental error with career-threatening physicality against the team that got him dead to rights. That's just my own personal view of the game

How often do you see a guy send himself? How can you accuse a runner of "misjudging his own speed" when the base coach sent him?

It only comes up when a catcher gets hurt. When the catcher holds on and both guys are fine, it's a good baseball play. I know you're stating your personal opinion, but, the only reason this is even a discussion is because Posey got hurt.

Unfortunate. But for christ sake, we can't pussify every sport. If we were going to do that, Chinese checkers and Monopoly tournaments would be televised.

If the coach makes that decision, it's his error. Team game, so same difference. Thankfully, I can now launch into I feel there are too many coaches in sports. Kidding... Maybe not. A topic for another thread.

Obviously, differing opinions about baseball here. To each his own, and I know I'm in the minority, but I don't think it's pussifying anything. I'd call it challenging players to be smarter and more athletic (vs. reckless) in order to achieve victory.

peeker643 wrote:I would today absolutely choose Santana over Posey. Not even close.

I almost came in and started this thread just to make that exact point last night at like 3AM.

Then I decided against being that much of a smart ass.

Good to see you don't hold yourself to the same lofty standards I hold myself to.

Who does?

But I didn't start the thread and never even thought about starting it.

I just took the easy money that was laying there.

Good chance neither of us have such lofty standards.

Actually, now that I think back on the last two months of watching Santana either jump back from anything on the inner half, swing through any breaking ball and hit about two bills over his last few hundred ABs, I might actually choose Posey even today.

I thought about adding that line into the OP, but didn't want to be too much of a troublemaker.

Santana either jump back from anything on the inner half

This is really the key issue. It seems like Santana has good vision for most of the strike zone (someone who walks as much as he does has to), but he can't judge balls on the inner side as well. He bails out on balls just inside, and he still flinches on strikes. I'm no hitting coach, so I don't know how you'd go about fixing it, but if you could I think he might be fine. Maybe look inside and try to pick up the ball if it's outside? Don't be afraid of getting hit if it really is coming in? I dunno.

That said, I don't think that "expanding his strike zone" is really the answer. A few games ago, one of the broadcasters (forget which one) said that Acta had encouraged him to give in with two strikes. Of course, on that at-bat Santana battled to 3-2 and then swung and missed at ball four outside, a pitch that he usually takes.

If he's coachable he'll get by this. If he's not then he was fucked anyway.

Teams are pounding him inside with fastballs. He needs to recognize an inner half strike and hit that pitch before it gets to the plate and too deep on him. Might take an adjustment in stance as well so that he can keep it fair but soft stuff away and hard stuff on his hands is the book right now.His turn to adjust and that's the adjustment. When he shows the ability to hit the pitch and keep it fair pitchers will need to adjust to him again.

Be really adviseable to let him do it somewhere around 7th in the lineup though .

Jumbo wrote:Santana either jump back from anything on the inner half

This is really the key issue. It seems like Santana has good vision for most of the strike zone (someone who walks as much as he does has to), but he can't judge balls on the inner side as well. He bails out on balls just inside, and he still flinches on strikes. I'm no hitting coach, so I don't know how you'd go about fixing it, but if you could I think he might be fine. Maybe look inside and try to pick up the ball if it's outside? Don't be afraid of getting hit if it really is coming in? I dunno.

That said, I don't think that "expanding his strike zone" is really the answer. A few games ago, one of the broadcasters (forget which one) said that Acta had encouraged him to give in with two strikes. Of course, on that at-bat Santana battled to 3-2 and then swung and missed at ball four outside, a pitch that he usually takes.

peeker643 wrote:If he's coachable he'll get by this. If he's not then he was fucked anyway.

Teams are pounding him inside with fastballs. He needs to recognize an inner half strike and hit that pitch before it gets to the plate and too deep on him. Might take an adjustment in stance as well so that he can keep it fair but soft stuff away and hard stuff on his hands is the book right now.His turn to adjust and that's the adjustment. When he shows the ability to hit the pitch and keep it fair pitchers will need to adjust to him again.

Be really adviseable to let him do it somewhere around 7th in the lineup though .

I've got no reason to think that a guy who's as obviously talented as this kid is won't eventually figure it out through coaching, watching tape, and swings in the cage.

The crappy thing is, Posey never even had control of the ball. It came in on one bounce, hit him in the chest and bounced away yet he still turned towards the plate to tag the runner. What option do you have to avoid this type of play. In Little League, if you don't slide you are out. But you can't make that the standard in a professional league nor can you force a runner to slide in feet first and take all the risk of injury on themselves particularly if the catcher is still allowed to block the plate.

peeker643 wrote:He needs to recognize an inner half strike and hit that pitch before it gets to the plate and too deep on him.

Yeah. It seems like he's had more trouble batting (and bailing) left-handed than right-handed too(*), so that might be where he needs to adjust his stance. I also was speculating that he was looking outside, and then having trouble picking up the ball running in. Maybe he should look in and try to fight off good pitches outside.

(*) Checked splits, and the numbers suggest a modest difference so far. He's shown more power left handed, but slightly better on-base ability right handed. Striking out ~21% of the time left-handed (walking 16%), striking out 10% of the time right handed (walking 20%). Inconclusive, but might support theory he's not seeing the ball as well from the left side.

Be really adviseable to let him do it somewhere around 7th in the lineup though .

With Grady coming back this weekend, and Acta expressing concern about Santana's performance, I'd be surprised if he wasn't dropped out of the cleanup spot soon.

Speaking of Grady, he's alreayd set to be activated. My guess is he won't play tomorrow with Price on the hill, but he'll be available to pinch hit. He'll start Saturday against Shields.

Santana from April 17th to May 17th:.256 BA / .413 OBP / .512 SLG / .926 OPS with 6 2B and 5 HR in 104 PA and a 23-game stretch

He has yet to get a hit from May 18th to now. What happened that was different on that date?It's the first time that Hafner wasn't in the lineup behind Santana when Pronk hit the DL. Protection from Buck and Duncan do not equal protection from Hafner. That isn't the whole story, but I would guess that it's part of it.

He has yet to get a hit from May 18th to now. What happened that was different on that date?It's the first time that Hafner wasn't in the lineup behind Santana when Pronk hit the DL. Protection from Buck and Duncan do not equal protection from Hafner. That isn't the whole story, but I would guess that it's part of it.

Good point. I'd be intersted to see a few things. What was his BABIP and Line Drive% during that month stretch and since. Is he walking and K'ing more now like you'd expect with worse protection?

Maybe this is just a SSS/Luck type of anomoly. Becuase I don't see how worse protection equals worse hitter, unless the opposing pitcher's approach changed and that change just happens to coincide with Hafner going down. If that's the case, then like Peek said, we have to see if he can make the adjustment back. That makes the most sense to me.

Or, it could just be one of those cold stretches. He's wearing his garter backwards or something and needs to breath through his eyelids.

motherscratcher wrote:Good point. I'd be intersted to see a few things. What was his BABIP and Line Drive% during that month stretch and since. Is he walking and K'ing more now like you'd expect with worse protection?

Maybe this is just a SSS/Luck type of anomoly. Becuase I don't see how worse protection equals worse hitter, unless the opposing pitcher's approach changed and that change just happens to coincide with Hafner going down. If that's the case, then like Peek said, we have to see if he can make the adjustment back. That makes the most sense to me.

Seems like a case of too much patience to me.

Seeing 4% more fastballs than last year. Swinging less at pitches out of the zone, but swinging 7% less overall. Swinging at 9.5% fewer pitches inside the strike zone. Pitchers are confusing him because he continuously gets deep in to counts. On one hand, that's a great thing. But on another hand, he might be at a point where he should hit the first good fastball he gets.

Also, as we've all seen, pulling off the fastball. 10.3% of balls in play are line drives. Last year was 21.1%. That 10%? All added to the percentage of ground balls hit.

He's just completely lost. No idea what the pitcher's going to throw. I think there's too much going on in his head at the plate. He needs to simplify it. See ball, pick up spin, hit ball. Not play mind games.

A God Damn dead man would understand that if a minor league bus in any city took a real sharp right turn, a Zack McCalister would likely fall out. - Lead Pipe

FWIW, listened to a bit of the Red Sux game today. During the pre-game show the host interviewed one of the broadcast guys for Oakland, a guy by the name of Ray Fosse. You might have heard of him. Fosse was saying it was a clean hit. He also said, in response to the people clamoring for a "rule change" that there IS no rule about running into the catcher during a play like that so it's a moot point to discuss changing it. He also said that is the risk you run when you play the catcher position. All in all he had no problems with it...and I guess his opinion is worth something.

I did look on WEEI's website to see if I could find audio from the pre-game show but nothing there. Sorry, because I'm sure Fosse explained it much better than I just typed.

I've tried 'em all, I really have, and the only church that truly feeds the soul, day in, day out, is the Church of Baseball.~~~Annie Savoy-"Bull Durham"