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Need a new sandwich bread

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At my restaurant we make everything from scratch (even cheeses, cured meats, pickles...) except bread. Which is ironic since my start here on eG was primarily pastry and its still my passion. But I just haven't had the capacity to make bread for the restaurant until now.I bought a commercial convection, 2 tray full-sheet oven, and I think that will allow me the space to make enough to feed my customers.

The bread is for my lunches only not dinners. Lunches are basic café fare - soup, salad and sandwiches. So obviously we're looking at the sandwiches. The bread needs to cross the lines between roasted turkey to sloppy chicken molé.

I like my sandwich breads to be soft enough to easily bite and chew (sourdough is out).

I would like the bread to be versatile enough that I could add herbs or cheese to specialize for various sandwiches.

It needs to be sturdy but not so much bread in our carb conscious world.

I like focacias but they're a bit too rustic for my place

Previously I have used a bought ciabatta but they were too tough for many of my customers.

Currently I am using a bought brioche bun which is too bready and so I'm seeing a lot come back to the trash.

I've only used individual rolls/buns to this point but have considered sandwich bread, although that is a bit too rustic for us...but not if its good enough.

I think the ideal bread would be somewhat flat but a bit of sponge, have a little bite, but not too much chew (if that even makes sense). Any thoughts. Maybe there's a cool ethnic bread that I haven't considered, or you have a favorite that seems to fit the bill.

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I could dig up the recipe for Hole cake ( Hålakaka), my grandmother's recipe and it is half rye and half wheat, soft bread that can be made into Örfilar ( A clip around the ear) which is a square soft bread and easy to make. Rye is such a popular thing even for those who want less carbs. In Sweden most breads are a mix of wheat and rye. It doesnt have the wow factor of ciabata but it taste great. I love with smoked turkey or goat cheese or pike spread... Oh I am now drooling.

Does it sound nice?

Or you could make tunnbröd, that has become popular and is called Nordic wrap, but you need to be two to make or you will work your self to death and the one my family makes is half barley half wheat.

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One of my favorite upscale cafes uses flatbreads that they make on site. The bread is soft and pliable enough to serve as a wrap if one wishes, but it can also be cut with knife and fork as part of an open-face sandwich. Since it nearly covers the plate and the 'filling' almost covers the flatbread, I've usually chosen the latter option. They wouldn't share their recipe with me, alas, but their bent is Mediterranean. If you wanted a more local twist, might you use mesquite flour as an element in a flatbread? I don't know whether it would be difficult to source in quantity, and I know it isn't *quite* from your neck of the woods.

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CatPoet - that Hole Cake sounds interesting to me. I will need your help though since google just gives me some type of bundt sweet cake.

And Smithy, a soft flatbread could work especially if I shape it so its not as rustic. And you're very observant - we have mesquite but its scrub so the pods don't really get big enough to be worth harvesting. But ironically I went to a big mesquite conference a week ago and made all sorts of contacts down near Tucson.

A Puerto Rican friend just suggested pan de agua which might be interesting too if I added some flavor.

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Some of the best sandwich breads I've ever eaten were served at the old Tassajara Bakery in SF a very long time ago. The recipes were co-developed by Deborah Madison, former exec chef at the Greens restaurant in SF and now cookbook author. The recipes are in her original Greens cookbook. The recipes are also in the Tassajara Bread Book (by Edward Espe Brown), but I find Madison's recipes better written and more reliable. Madison's other cookbooks contain bread recipes that are worth checking out, especially in Vegetarian Cooking for Everyone.

In particular, I suggest that you look at the recipes for the Potato Bread and Dill Cottage Cheese Bread, both loaf pan breads that were used for sandwiches at the Tassajara Bakery. IIRC, the Greens restaurant in SF is still using these breads for the sandwiches at their take-out counter.

Another possibility is to experiment with a challah dough baked in a loaf pan, which could make a suitable (and delicious) sandwich bread. There's a recipe for a lean challah in Vegetarian Cooking for Everyone. It's made with water and veg oil, no milk.

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I am going to bake a batch of Örfilar / hålkaka tomorrow and take pictures, it will be much easier. I also realised that the note book with the recipe is next to my sleeping daughter, I read to her the recipe for potato cakes before bed time... So I make it tomorrow and you all can see what I use.

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Have you tried the hamburger bun recipe in Modernist Cuisine? It makes a basic white bun with a very nice texture for burgers, and the techniques used to achieve it give you a range of textural options.

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For about a decade, I've made a sandwich bread that yields a good-sized loaf from 500g flour, 10g yeast, 350-400ml/g water (depending on how slack I want the dough), and 3g salt. The addtion of 50+g butter or olive oil makes it really tender. I usually use spelt flour, but the recipe is flexible enough to work well with every sort of flour or flour combination I've thrown at it.

This yields a tasty loaf in a 2-hour turnaround time, about half an hour for each rise (but it becomes amazing with longer rises).

I often spread out the dough to about 1.5cm and cook it on a sheet pan to make schiacciata, which adds some variety to my boyfriend's packed lunches.

I've scaled this recipe to make up four loaves (the most I've made in a go, for a party), and the results are the same as for the single-loaf recipe.

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I be making it tomorrow, I am out of fine rye flour and the store is out of it too and I am not going for a 1 hour journey to get flour today, it will be picked up tomorrow when I am going shopping anyway.

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What bothers me is I was in the big town today, I did look at flour and thought Nah I have a bag, yeah I have a bag of coarse stone ground rye flour that makes anything taste MDF, but makes lovely Danish rye bread.Oh well , I just pick it up tomorrow and I give you nice walk through.

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For about a decade, I've made a sandwich bread that yields a good-sized loaf from 500g flour, 10g yeast, 350-400ml/g water (depending on how slack I want the dough), and 3g salt. The addtion of 50+g butter or olive oil makes it really tender. I usually use spelt flour, but the recipe is flexible enough to work well with every sort of flour or flour combination I've thrown at it.

This yields a tasty loaf in a 2-hour turnaround time, about half an hour for each rise (but it becomes amazing with longer rises).

I often spread out the dough to about 1.5cm and cook it on a sheet pan to make schiacciata, which adds some variety to my boyfriend's packed lunches.

I've scaled this recipe to make up four loaves (the most I've made in a go, for a party), and the results are the same as for the single-loaf recipe.

Mjx, for about how much time, and at what temperature, should this be baked? Does the answer change if it's flattened to make schiacciata? If so, what would the new numbers be?

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So I go in to town, get to a lager store and I get told they dont carry such exotic flour... When the heck did fine rye flour become exotic in Sweden? The land of rye in nearly every bread there is, yes even our white bread has it. Oh and apparently a weird flour from New Zealand isnt exotic, since they have that . Came home not pleased at all and ran into a very displeased neighbor, who grumpt about the lack of fine rye flour. Since we both have this problem, she promised to take me in to store on the other side of town to find the flour.

So tomorrow and by Holy Loaf I will raise hell if the store doesnt carry it.

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For about a decade, I've made a sandwich bread that yields a good-sized loaf from 500g flour, 10g yeast, 350-400ml/g water (depending on how slack I want the dough), and 3g salt. The addtion of 50+g butter or olive oil makes it really tender. I usually use spelt flour, but the recipe is flexible enough to work well with every sort of flour or flour combination I've thrown at it.

This yields a tasty loaf in a 2-hour turnaround time, about half an hour for each rise (but it becomes amazing with longer rises).

I often spread out the dough to about 1.5cm and cook it on a sheet pan to make schiacciata, which adds some variety to my boyfriend's packed lunches.

I've scaled this recipe to make up four loaves (the most I've made in a go, for a party), and the results are the same as for the single-loaf recipe.

Mjx, for about how much time, and at what temperature, should this be baked? Does the answer change if it's flattened to make schiacciata? If so, what would the new numbers be?

Oops. Sorry about the omission.

If I'm baking a standard loaf, I preheat the oven to 225C° (437F°), give the bread 20 minutes (with convection; this is standard in Danish ovens), then reduce the temperature to 200C° (392F°), and give it another 25 minutes.

If I'm slammed with work and minutes mean everything, I just preheat to 200C°, shove in the bread, set the timer for 50 minutes, and it's still fine.

If my schedule is not so hectic, I preheat the oven with a cast iron pan in, then, after I've put in the bread, I fill the pan with water; this comes out at the 20 minute mark, when I adjust the temperature. If you have an oven with a steam setting, you're in luck.

To be honest, I don't usually check the internal temperature, but when I do, I'm looking for a minimum of 95C° (about 200F°), which yields a darker, crustier bread; 90C° (about 195F°) would give the just-golden-brown surface that is more characteristic of American sandwich bread (going with just 200C°/392F° would probably help yield this result, too; although you might want to brush the top with milk).

I've used loaf pans of varying sizes and shapes, and have found they yield loaves that are more or less the same, without any adjustment to time or temperature.

If I'm making schiacciata, I give it 25 minutes at 225C° (437F°), but keep an eye on it, since the Husqvarna oven from the mid-80s that I'm using these days is prone to random heat spikes (it's also 15 to 35C° off, depending on temperature used, how long it's been on, etc), so it can suddenly incinerate things with no warning.

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First of all I want to say, my bread doesnt look its best today, baking rye bread during a thunderstorm isnt a great idea. Yours will look much better, trust me. And also this have a bit more rye then it should, my daughter thought should add extra. And I made half a batch and not big one.

Mix in everything but the plain flour, you can do this in a mixer, I couldnt be bother to get mine out today.

Now work in the plain flour, until you have a smooth dough.

Keep kneading it a bit more until smooth and easy to work with but not dry.

Leave it under a towel to rise until double in size, this can take between 40 mins till 2 hours.

Roll the dough out to about ½ - 1 inch thick, remember it will double in height. In the background you can see the tray I normally use for a full size dough.

Please into you chosen baking tray, this one I am using needs paper to be able to loosen the bread while the black need only flour.

Prick the bread with a fork, it is important or it gets weird when it rises the second time. My grand mother had a "bread stabber" that made stars, so cute.

Now divide the bread in as big pieces you need. Cover and rise for 40 min. Brush with cold water and then bake at 225 C for 10 minutes. Take out the bread and quickly brush with hot water and if you want a darker crust add a little dark treacle to the water, back in for another 10 minutes and brush with hot water and done.

This is how it looks done, it break apart easily and normally looks nice.

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Oh dear, it was supposed to 100 gram of butter, and 100 oil. I was bit tired yesterday due this bloody weather and i manage to mangled the recipe. I am so sorry.

We found out last night my scale is off with a bit, so I got hold of my neighbors one and measured again. Because the recipe is based on my grandmothers coffee cups and not gram. So there , now it is perfect and YES I have another pan going again.

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FYI. On todays Food Programme, BBC Radio 4 which will be podcasted I think tomorrow after its repeat. He outlined the Bread tome, and I found very interesting the economics of bread. It's all a bit beyond me as a Coeliac most of it is out of my reach. One can listen to it on Radio 4 website. Furthermore R4 is my constant companion and the last bastion of civilisation

These have been mentioned a couple of times recently on different threads and I felt they deserved one of their own. After all, they did keep me alive when I lived in Xi'an.

Rou jia mo (ròu jiá mò; literally "Meat Sandwich") are Chinese sandwiches which originated in Shaanxi Province, but can be found all over China. Away from their point of origin, they tend to be made with long stewed pork belly. However in Xi'an (capital of Shaanxi), there is a large Muslim population so the meat of choice is more usually beef. In nearby Gansu Province, lamb or mutton is more likely.

When I was living in Xi'an in 1996-1997, I lived on these. I was living on campus in North-West University (西北大学) and right outside the school gate was a street lined with cheap food joints, most of which would serve you one. I had one favourite place which I still head to when I visit. First thing I do when I get off the train.

What I eat is Cumin Beef Jia Mo (孜然牛肉夹馍 zī rán niú ròu jiá mò). The beef is stir fried or grilled/BBQd with cumin and mild green peppers. It is also given a bit of a kick with red chill flakes.

Here is a recipe wrested from the owner of my Xi'an favourite. So simple, yet so delicious.

Lean Beef

Fairly lean beef is cut into slivers

Sliced Beef

Chopped garlic

I use this single clove garlic from Sichuan, but regular garlic does just fine.

The beef and garlic are mixed in a bowl and generously sprinkled with ground cumin. This is then moistened with a little light soy sauce and Shaoxing wine. You don't want to flood it. Set aside for as long as you can.

Mild Green Chilli Pepper

Take one or two mild green peppers and crush with the back of a knife, then slice roughly. You could de-seed if you prefer. I don't bother.

Chopped Green Pepper

Fire up the wok, add oil (I use rice bran oil, but any vegetable oil except olive oil would be fine) and stir fry the meat mixture until the meat is just done.

Frying Tonight

Then add the green peppers and fry until they are as you prefer them. I tend to like them still with a bit of crunch, so slightly under-cook them

In with the peppers

You will, of course, have prepared the bread. The sandwiches are made with a type of flat bread known as 白吉饼 (bái jí bǐng; literally "white lucky cake-shape"). The ones here are store bought but I often make them. Recipe below.

Bai Ji Bing

Take one and split it. Test the seasoning of the filling, adding salt if necessary. It may not need it because of the soy sauce.

Nearly there

Cover to make a sandwich and enjoy. You will see that I have used a bunch of kitchen paper to hold the sandwich and to soak up any escaping juices. But it should be fairly dry.

The final product.

Note: I usually cook the meat and pepper in batches. Enough for one sandwich per person at a time. If we need another (and we usually do) I start the next batch.

Bread Recipe

350g plain flour
140ml water
1/2 teaspoon instant yeast

Mix the yeast with the flour and stir in the water. Continue stirring until a dough forms. Knead until smooth. Cover with a damp towel or plastic wrap and leave to rise by about one third. (maybe 30-40 minutes).

Knead again to remove any air then roll the dough into a log shape around 5cm in diameter, then cut into six portions. Press these into a circle shape using a rolling pin. You want to end up with 1.5cm thick buns.

Preheat oven to 190C/370F.

Dry fry the buns in a skillet until they take on some colour about a minute or less on each side, then finish in the oven for ten minutes. Allow to cool before using.

I've had the CSO for a number of years now, but have yet to actually bake bread in it.

Reading through the Modernist Bread thread on this forum I see many of you are using the CSO to great effect, which is heartening.

To that end, I would like to know about your experience baking bread in it – what sort of extra equipment you use (pans, cast iron? etc), what breads work the best, any corrections you find yourself making, or anything you feel might be useful to someone else using the CSO.

Dear fellow bakers,
We have been baking no-knead bread at home for several years and as a family of scientists and engineers, we consistently tried to make it even more easier and convenient.
We liked what we ended up with so much that, I decided to start a small company (based in Eindhoven, Netherlands) to make a new bread kit product out of it.

I am seeking your help to know your opinion of the product and how the story is told.

LoafNest is an improvement on no-knead Dutch oven bread making. We took perforated silicone liner designed for professional bread baking and put it into a uniquely designed cast iron casserole. With this improvement, there is no need for shaping or second raising of the bread. You just mix, let the dough raise, pre-heat, pour the dough, bake and done!

The perforated silicone liner is from the same company that makes Silpat mats. Our liner is a more advanced version with perforations that allow radiative, conductive and convective heat to all sides of the bread. It is also rated to a higher temperature (260C/500F)

With less than 5 minutes of active work that can fit into a busy schedule, we hope to reduce the entry barrier for people who are willing to make bread. Our primary targets are people who buy expensive premium bread but want to make their own premium bread at home or people who use bread machines and want to eat better bread.

While it is not a primary target, we also believe this is a nice solution for experienced bakers who want to use a high-humidity, high thermal mass baking environment.

You can find the details and more images on http://trfl.nl/LoafNest [still a little bit work in progress] and http://trfl.nl/loafnest-gallery
What are your impressions of the product? Visually and functionally?
What are your thoughts on how the story is told?
Any improvement to resonate better with people who are thinking of starting to bake their own bread?
Any thoughts on pricing?
I would be grateful to your feedback and suggestions.

I am sure, in the end, we all want more people to eat better and healthier bread. So please support me in this endeavor.

Of the many zillions of inclusions they discuss in Modernist Bread, one that I'd honestly never considered was sprouted grains. Apparently I'm out of touch with the "health food" movement! Have any of you made bread with sprouted grains? Can you describe the flavor difference between sprouted versus just soaked? Right now I'm sprouting some rye, but I'm curious about what to expect from the finished product.