It is a wank about the naming. The Highborne, literally are the High Elves.

Then you are just being unnecessarily contentious. Yes, the high elves are technically the highborne (more specifically their descendants) but we have a more specific terms to refer to them, High Elves, highborne is used to specifically refer to highborne night elves, since they are part of the original group.

It is just so unnecessary to wank over this, it's like the whole "tomate is a vegetable" discussion.

Then you are just being unnecessarily contentious. Yes, the high elves are technically the highborne (more specifically their descendants) but we have a more specific terms to refer to them, High Elves, highborne is used to specifically refer to highborne night elves, since they are part of the original group.

It is just so unnecessary to wank over this, it's like the whole "tomate is a vegetable" discussion.

Well, not really. Because Highborne NIGHT ELVES, as still Night Elves....

“Goebbels was in favor of free speech for views he liked. So was Stalin. If you’re really in favor of free speech, then you’re in favor of freedom of speech for precisely the views you despise. Otherwise, you’re not in favor of free speech.” - Noam Chomsky

Yes I do know. Nothing in lore at all would suggest that type of decision (Night Elves joining Horde) in any way at all.

The Night Elfs of Dire Maul would not be too influence by the events that would prevent Darnassian Night Elves joining the Horde.

You also have a misconception on what equality means.

Both sides get the same thing. In this case, both factions end up with one of the other sides races.

Whats ironic is your own choice of words, and asking about Night Elf mages disproves your point and possibility of them joining the Horde....

Why would the Highborne of Dire Maul NOT seek out their Highborn kin now called the High Elves? Why would they have some grievance against the Horde that would prevent or inhibit their joining up? The Highborne of Dire Maul are Night Elves, but they owe no fealty towards Darnassus. Conversely, the High Elves are the descendents of their own kind. Highborne who were exiled from Darnassus.

You seem to be arguing that Night Elfs from Dire Maul would never ally with the Horde because , as Night Elves, they would follow the same relationships as those in Darnassus.

And British people are still people, doesn't magically make British incorrect

I'm sorry, i don't fully understand your meaning here.

Originally Posted by Amonra

But then why use the same term to refer to two different races?? It's just convoluted.

You're right, it is. This is why I am annoyed at "Highborne Night Elf" even being used at all. Its a bit silly. The Shen'Dralar sect of Night Elves has allied itself with Darn. This is why we have Night Elf mages.

---------- Post added 2013-01-13 at 01:00 AM ----------

Originally Posted by Talen

Both sides get the same thing. In this case, both factions end up with one of the other sides races.

EJL

This is not equality. In no way shape oor form are the High Elves a Horde faction. So taking Night Elves, or any sect of Night Elves away from the Alliance wouldn't be equality.

Why would the Highborne of Dire Maul NOT seek out their Highborn kin now called the High Elves? Why would they have some grievance against the Horde that would prevent or inhibit their joining up? The Highborne of Dire Maul are Night Elves, but they owe no fealty towards Darnassus. Conversely, the High Elves are the descendents of their own kind. Highborne who were exiled from Darnassus.

There have been quests in game that disprove this. They are part of Darnassus. High Elves are still Alliance. So this doesn't really make sense anyway.

You seem to be arguing that Night Elfs from Dire Maul would never ally with the Horde because , as Night Elves, they would follow the same relationships as those in Darnassus.

They have. This is in the game. This is why we have Night Elf Mages.

“Goebbels was in favor of free speech for views he liked. So was Stalin. If you’re really in favor of free speech, then you’re in favor of freedom of speech for precisely the views you despise. Otherwise, you’re not in favor of free speech.” - Noam Chomsky

The Highborne are the Nobles of the old Night Elf Empire. Following a series of unfortunate events, many found themselves exiled to the Eastern Kingdoms where they became High Elves. Another batch of Highborne, however, survived in the city now known as Dire Maul. These recently left and rejoined their kin in Darnassus.

My little addition is to postulate a disagreement - some didn't want to seek out the Darnassian Night Elves and instead opted to seek out their Highborne kin, the High Elves, instead. In this way, the Horde get Night Elfs to offset the Allaince getting Blood/High Elfs. Everyone is happy because everyone gets something equivalent to the other - whether they like what they got is another question. Even Blizzard can end up happy because the change necessary is minimal.

EJL

Or how about just give the Alliance High Elves because they're an Alliance race? Horde can have Ogres or some other foolishness.

1) The Alliance is not, and has never felt, complete without them. Seriously. They may be fickle, they may be arses. they may be the most despicable and independent race going, but they were an Alliance race. They were there almost from the very first incarnation of the Alliance. When someone says 'Alliance' to me, in the context of WoW, I think of Human, Dwarves and High Elves.

Imagine this; WoW started with Taurens in the Alliance. Blizzard gave the most lore abiding excuse going, and there was apparently no going back. Horde players would be pissed, no? And I'd understand why; Tauren are fundamental to the Horde in the same way the High Elves (atleast in my opinion) are to the Alliance. Both are key and part of the 'trio' races that are quintessential to the depiction of the Alliance.

And 2), if Blizzard is insisting on developing and devoting so much lore to the High Elves, we, the player base, may as well see some of that first hand. I think it's boarding on pathetic now that High Elves have been continually updated in every expansion (TBC - Allerian Hold, Wrath - Silver Convent & new/updated Sunwell lore during the sword quest, , Cata - Continued Silver Convent update, insight in their political disposition regarding Quel'thalas and MoP - continued presence through the Kirin Tor quests), while other playable races (Gnomes, Worgen, Draenei) are woefully neglected.

Seriously, if they're gunna get that much attention, then Blizzard might as well/should add them as playable.

Imagine if the counterpart for the Horde version was that Ogres continually received update after update. They lead a significant force in Northerend for the Horde, and later this transgressed through each and every expansion, and they took precedent for lore development over other playable races (Tauren, Goblin & Troll). You'd be pissed, right?

That you are ascribing to one group of people, the attributes, attitudes, belivefs, culture of another simply because they are the same race.

You're right, it is. This is why I am annoyed at "Highborne Night Elf" even being used at all. Its a bit silly. The Shen'Dralar sect of Night Elves has allied itself with Darn. This is why we have Night Elf mages.

Not all of them did. Not all of them need have done so.

This is not equality. In no way shape oor form are the High Elves a Horde faction. So taking Night Elves, or any sect of Night Elves away from the Alliance wouldn't be equality.

HElfs are BElfs with a blue glow to their eyes. Belfs are a Horde faction. You would be giving the Alliance a race with the same look, langauge, architecture, culture, animations, etc. An old, already existing race. A race that currently is not available to Alliance players. Giving the Horde Night Elves would mean the Horde too would be getting an old already existing race to play and the idea that Highborne Night Elfs from Dire Maul, Night Elfs who have no link with or loyalty to Darnassus beyond race and also have a link to the Blood Elves might seek out both factions isn't unreasonable.

There have been quests in game that disprove this. They are part of Darnassus. High Elves are still Alliance. So this doesn't really make sense anyway.

Only because you are trying to argue that an addition to the existing lore can't be done. If Blizzard wanted to give the Horde Night Elfs, and then say "Not all the Highborne from Dire Maul went to Darnassus; some went to seek out the Blood Elfs instead" is there anythign in existing lore to contradict that? No. You could even bring back Tarsis Kir-Moldir as the leader and give him a suitable backstory.

Rescued by a BElf scout party, he returned to DM to find the city in disarray and preparing to sned an emissray to Darnassus. He argued unsuccessfully to join their strength with that of their Highborne kin, the Blood Elves but did manage to recruit a sizeable contingent from those who disliked the idea of seeking help from the hippies, and relocated to Silvermoon.

They have. This is in the game. This is why we have Night Elf Mages.

You seem to be operating under the belief that lore can't be added to the game, and that the lore we have is complete.

Which misses the point that you'd be giving the Alliance a rehashed race and the Horde a brand new one.

You give one side a brand new arce, they both get brand new races.
You want to give one side a rehashed race? The other side needs to get a rehashed race.

EJL

Only 1/3 of the Dark Iron population sided with Moira iirc. Perfect opportunity to add a slightly renegade version of one of the Alliance races and meld it into the Horde.

Or Draenei are always a viable option. Have it so both Blood Elves and Draenei go neutral next expansion (but Alliance Elves have a choice to pick blue eyes or green.)

Originally Posted by Skytotem

High Elves are boring, they contribute nothing new, have no unique architecture, no interesting culture, etc...

They do however provide interesting development for other races.

High Elves properly cemented into the Alliance would finally give Blood Elves a personal stake into sticking with the Horde. Right now, there's logical reasons why they're still there, and gameplay reasons, but nothing else. There's nothing that inherently makes them or the players feel a connection to the Horde. This would provide that; a direct opposition to their authority that is allied with their enemy.

But then why use the same term to refer to two different races?? It's just convoluted.

They aren´t defining two different races by using those terms. Its a definition of two different cultures within the entire night elven society where the High borne are the ruling caste. Just look at how India is divided in a caste system and what each are called - doesn´t mean others won´t call everyone of them Indians.

"Only Jack can zip up."
The word you want to use is "have" not "of".
You may have alot of stuff in your country, but we got Lolland.

They aren´t defining two different races by using those terms. Its a definition of two different cultures within the entire night elven society where the High borne are the ruling caste. Just look at how India is divided in a caste system and what each are called - doesn´t mean others won´t call everyone of them Indians.

Horrible comparison when there's 10000 years of evolution that separate them and have made them both biologically and culturally way too different. By your logic, we should still call high elves night elves since they are far more biologically and culturally closer to the original highborne.

---------- Post added 2013-01-14 at 01:36 AM ----------

Originally Posted by Talen

Which misses the point that you'd be giving the Alliance a rehashed race and the Horde a brand new one.

You give one side a brand new arce, they both get brand new races.
You want to give one side a rehashed race? The other side needs to get a rehashed race.

EJL

This points comes a lot, and its a logical fallacy. If they give the alliance a "rehashed" race, that would make the blood elves less unique as well; so you'd had to add a brand new race to the horde to balance things out.

---------- Post added 2013-01-14 at 01:44 AM ----------

Originally Posted by Skytotem

High Elves are boring, they contribute nothing new, have no unique architecture, no interesting culture, etc...

Well, this is a matter of opinion. As such, I believe you are completely wrong.

They would be the only race that has a biological counterpart on an opposite faction summed to an unwavering hate for each other. Pandaren seemed to flirt with this, but we haven't seen it play out. The animosity between high elves and blood elves has been a theme since their separation, and it has been touched upon BC and later expanded further in WotLK with the Sunreavers and the Silver Covenant, and now is incredibly high after the events in Dalaran. They have finally reached open hostility.

That is a plot with a lot of interesting possibilities (the return of Alleria, control of the sunwell, amani invasion) That I would love to be explored.

Only 1/3 of the Dark Iron population sided with Moira iirc. Perfect opportunity to add a slightly renegade version of one of the Alliance races and meld it into the Horde.

Yes...except they also spent much of Vanilla fighting the Orcs and the Horde. Not an insurmountable problem though.

Or Draenei are always a viable option. Have it so both Blood Elves and Draenei go neutral next expansion (but Alliance Elves have a choice to pick blue eyes or green.)

Possible....but theres already been a bit of a backlash about the way factions go neutral. The Orcs tried to wipe them out. The BElfs under KT tried to finish the job.

You could probbaly come up with some story for any Alliance race to be present within the Horde...Gnomish slaves, human spies and so on. Overall...the Highborne seeking out their kin in Silvermoon seems to be the least contrived.

They would be the only race that has a biological counterpart on an opposite faction summed to an unwavering hate for each other. Pandaren seemed to flirt with this, but we haven't seen it play out. The animosity between high elves and blood elves has been a theme since their separation, and it has been touched upon BC and later expanded further in WotLK with the Sunreavers and the Silver Covenant, and now is incredibly high after the events in Dalaran. They have finally reached open hostility.

That is a plot with a lot of interesting possibilities (the return of Alleria, control of the sunwell, amani invasion) That I would love to be explored.

ppl seem to forget the conflict between night elves and high elves as an intresting point in if they were made playable race rather than just random hang around npcs.(copy paste from wowwiki) The years of conflict between the night elves and the high elves number so many that they make the Alliance and Horde conflict look like children arguing over a toy. When the high elves lost their immortality, they eventually forgot their brethren as generations lived and died, creating legends of histories. The night elves remembered the damage the highborne brought to the world, and view their descendents as time bombs. When the high elves encountered the night elves, they realized the legends were true and began to resent the fact that the night elves had access to so much power that they refused to use — not to mention the whole matter of exile. Many plot to retake the magically imbued forests for themselves, regardless of the fact that both races belong to the Alliance.

This points comes a lot, and its a logical fallacy. If they give the alliance a "rehashed" race, that would make the blood elves less unique as well; so you'd had to add a brand new race to the horde to balance things out.

If you give the Alliance High Elves , what would the player raection be? They'd love it.
If, at the same time, you gave the Horde Ogres, what would the player reaction be? They'd love it. And then they'd point out, rather forcefully, that the High Elf uses the same model as the Blood Elf. The same animations. That it had been in the game for years. That it wasn't fair that the Horde got a shiny sparkly brand new model and the Alliance got a hand-me-down.

For something like this, balance is required. What happenes to one, happens to both. Just look at how mnay Alliance players disliked the disparity in class/role combos. Or the way the Horde reacted to the difference in mounts. An the Alliance as well.

You may want to think of this as a logical fallacy. But it would happen. More to the point, it would be justified. And it would require next to no work on Blizzrads part to fix it.

A new character selection screen? Already being done. Charcater models and animations? Already done. Start zone? Drop them in an existing zone. Lore to justify it? Blizzard can make something up.

And yes...it would make the BElfs less "unique" - or rather, less associated with the Horde.

Originally Posted by Fojos

Why would it make sense when they barely exist anymore?

Why does it make sense when the Gnomes/Tauren/Trolls/Goblins barely exist anymore? Many players factions are technically made up of just a few members if you go by existing lore.