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"From what I can tell...the big difference between South Florida and Hawaii is that the infrequent cold shots are more severe in Florida. The record low in Honolulu is 49 F (2/9/1981)...and the record low in Miami is 26 F (12/30/1934) and Key West 41 F (1/13/1981). However, the mean or normal winter lows (Dec/Jan/Feb) between places like Key West/Miami and Honolulu is only about 6 or 7 F apart."

Hey, let's not forget that 11 of 13 climates are found in the state of Hawaii itself. This actually does include the Polar/Polar Tundra Climate with permanently frozen soil, untouched rainforests, deserts and so much more! Mauna Kea is translated to 'White Mountain'. Yes, folks, it's covered with snow year round. How cold does it have to be for that? Not sure exactly, but pretty cold! The Universe is observed on top of this mountain by NASA! Contrary to popular belief, "Mauna Kea is the world’s tallest mountain, rising over 32,000 feet from the ocean floor to its summit, which is considered by many Hawaiians to be the most sacred place in all the islands." I'd say sacred sounds about rightl... There's also Mauna Loa, Loa translates to 'great', 'very', 'extreme'... It's also part of my name, Loana, cool, huh?!
(Mauna Kea Tour: Mauna Kea Summit & Stars Adventure | Hawaii Forest & Trail, see also: Koppen’s Climates | Hawaii Forest & Trail) The island of Kauai boasts the second wettest spot on earth-a true blue rainforest. Hawaii has the highest number of extinct plants and animals that will never be found anywhere else on earth, as the plants/animals lived in such a remote location, originating from wind, waves, and birds-what birds carried and bird poop, too! Ever heard of Molokai mini deer? Or wild boars with tusks as big as a large man's arm? Yep! And these are both still hunted (actually the boars aren't going extinct, I may be wrong). The locals hunt these boars with bare hands and knives, and backpack the buggers down the mountain! Quite a sight to see. Some of the best ham you'll ever have! Okay, back to the climate stuff: Not only does the US rock in terms of "go where you wanna go when you wanna go to do what you wanna do, oh, and don't forget to write to me about the weather..." Hawaii stands out with the fact that 11 of those 13 climate zones are magnificently placed in an area of only about 4,000 square miles! Like no other place on earth. Really. That's what they say. And no, we don't live in grass huts, but yes, we do squeal like children when we see snow on the 'mainland'. Just wanted to stop by and give props where propers were due! Thanks for reading!

I know Hawaii has many, many mico climates. Another reason it is such a beautiful place. Many times I’ve seen snow in the weather report for some part of the highlands of Hawaii. I consider mentioned when a conversation about climate comes up…but invariable people on the mainland will argue and say “no way” (lol). I’ve heard about the wild boars…but was unaware of the mini-deer. The only ones I ever heard of in the mainland is the tiny “Key Deer” in parts of the Florida Keys. These guys are really small, about 3 feet tall. Strange looking to see up close, however.

The lacks of terrain barriers in the USA allow very cold air masses from up in Canada to rush southward toward the Gulf Coast and only slowly modified as they head southward. You see this play out a few times each winter. You’ll see a pool of – 50 F air up in the Northwest Terr…then it crosses the USA/Canadian border in the upper Midwest and the temp has only modified to -20 F…then it rushes southward through the Great Plains and is still near 0 F…and finally might arrive on the Texas coast with lows of 15 or 20 F . In Australia (a much, much smaller continent) there is no source of cold advection (no land areas in higher latitudes), so cooler air in winter comes in more modified forum. Brisbane and New Orleans which are located close to the same latitude and have close to the same annual mean temperature have record lows far apart. The record low at Brisbane is 32 F I think…but the record low at New Orleans is 7 F.

As far as which direction the wind blows...I think your dead on. Despite what is common knowleged, there really is a monsoon in the eastern USA. The cold offshore winds that come out of the northwest bring shots of cold air in winter.....and the southerly flow out of the Bermuda High brings sultury tropical air from the deep tropics in summer. It's just unlike East Asia at the 35 to 40 latitdue, our rainfall is not seasonally concentrated. This is why the joke of people who move to NYC or Washington DC are shocked that a climate that gets so hot in summer can get so cold in winter. Maybe not cold compared to Russia, Canada...etc...but quite cold for 35 - 40 latitude.

That's what I think too. Take note as well. Australia has a huge expanse of ocean below it. Air currents come up from Antarctica and hit the Melbourne area but they are wet and mild, like the Gulf Stream that hits the British Isles. Whereas in our case, there is no large open ocean above us. We have a super huge landmass that we affectionately call Canada that keeps the cold Arctic air cold. So we would have far more consistent warm winters (instead of warm one day, cold the next), if also Canada didn't exist. We would have the same exact situation as the State of Victoria does and where I live would maybe be similar to Melbourne. Look at Arizona. It's 70-80 degrees much of the time in the winter yet at comparable latitude to Charleston, SC which is still cool in winter. Arizona has super tall mountains blocking cold Canadian air from infiltrating, in addition to the fact that Phoenix is what, 7000 feet lower in elevation than northern Arizona? It can be 80 in Phoenix, and 40 degrees in Flagstaff for example.

So I used the Arizona situation and also Spain's geography to explain why the U.S. is the way it is. Think about it with Spain too. France is above it, and their winters are about 40s for the most part, 50s in the Mediterranean area and the Spanish border. Perpignan, north of the Pyrenees can be about 40-45 degrees in winter, whereas Girona, on the south side of the Pyrenees, can be up to 60 degrees and they're only about an hour apart. But what separates them is a mountain chain that can rise to around 8000 feet high. That chain blocks the colder, wetter northern European air from infiltrating the Iberian peninsula (Spain also has the north coast mountains as well, blocking rain and some cold from infiltrating the interior). So Spain has the northern mountains that we lack, that give it it's milder and sunnier climate compared to southern France and we see that all of France is cold in winter. The U.S. is in the same situation France is in while Spain enjoys the benefits of tall mountains giving it a more pleasant winter, and that's how I arrived at my conclusion. As we all know on this forum, latitude is not the only indicator of climate, geography and placement greatly affects climate as well, which is why Labrador is frigid freezing in winter, but the British Isles has weather like Seattle.

The problem we have here in the U.S. as to why we have colder winters than we're supposed to, is I think, due to a lack of tall mountains straddling the Canadian-U.S. border and/or the fact that the Appalachians are pretty low elevation. If the Appalachian range was 8000 feet taller, I'd imagine the Piedmont region of the U.S. and the coastal plain of the east coast would experience Queensland-like temperatures. Where I live is almost the same exact latitude as Madrid and Rome, yet winters here can get very cold. But when no cold front comes through from Canada, it has gotten up to the low 50s here on such occasions. Our climate more has to do which the way the wind is blowing than our position relative to the equator and poles, I think. If the Rockies were an east-west mountain chain straddling the border, as opposed to its current north-south orientation, the U.S. would have Australian winters I believe

Winters in Eastern North America seem more variable than anywhere else on earth. I for one was suprised at how warm you can get, along with the cold spells. You have so many factors interplaying that it makes it pretty complex.

For a start the North American continent is centered pretty far north, so you have a high pressure system blowing cold, dry air from the heart of the landmass. The sheer amount of land at those latitudes and the way the continent is orientated means that the climate is decidedly continental. Since the predominant wind direction in the temperate zone is westerly, places like NY basically have a continental climate even if they're on the coast.

I think latitude does play a major role too, though, because as you see the isotherms are almost horizontal in the eastern US and Midwest (in contrast to Oz where the relationship is more coast/inland like the Western US). The inland East is pretty cold in general, cold snap or not, but the extremes probably do help to skew it a bit. There's a volatile mixing of polar and sub-tropical airmasses, and a high frequency of warm fronts.

Winters in Eastern North America seem more variable than anywhere else on earth. I for one was suprised at how warm you can get, along with the cold spells. You have so many factors interplaying that it makes it pretty complex.

For a start the North American continent is centered pretty far north, so you have a high pressure system blowing cold, dry air from the heart of the landmass. The sheer amount of land at those latitudes and the way the continent is orientated means that the climate is decidedly continental. Since the predominant wind direction in the temperate zone is westerly, places like NY basically have a continental climate even if they're on the coast.

I think latitude does play a major role too, though, because as you see the isotherms are almost horizontal in the eastern US and Midwest (in contrast to Oz where the relationship is more coast/inland like the Western US). The inland East is pretty cold in general, cold snap or not, but the extremes probably do help to skew it a bit. There's a volatile mixing of polar and sub-tropical airmasses, and a high frequency of warm fronts.

Yes exactly, which also explains why the U.S. is also the most tornado prone country on earth. Tornadoes strike most places in the world where cold and warm air can mix, but the U.S. suffers particularly more than any other country with similar climate conditions. Like you said, it's due to the volatility of air masses.

I see what you mean about the high pressure cells that you mentioned. It would also explain why it can get bitterly cold here, even in the south. A British friend of mine from the Midlands of England went to Florida last November, and she remarked how it was a lot cooler than she expected it to be (she came during a week when there were strong cold fronts blowing across the U.S.) and I said that the U.S. is strange in that even in the South warm winter days are not guaranteed. I wonder how much different the climate of the eastern U.S. would be if we had no Rocky Mountains. Certainly the west coast air masses would penetrate much further inland but I don't know if it would have any effect on the east coast. Interesting also is our east coast is awash in rain, even though the Rockies prevent Pacific moisture from moving inland, whereas in Australia the Great Dividing Range robs the Outback of moisture and WA is parched.

When you talked about NY, that's true as well. That also depends on if the air is blowing in from inland or from an ocean. We can see how NY has a continental climate despite being on the coast, whereas comparable cities and towns on the West Coast have a more wet Mediterranean climate. The U.S. defies logic when it comes to explaining how climate regions work nothing works the way it's supposed to here mostly because of our geography. And yes, the fact that most of North America is centered high above the equator, means that during winter when the sun is weak, the land loses the little heat it holds. If we had a vast inland sea in the middle of the U.S. (like we supposedly were supposed to since the New Madrid Fault is a failed fault system that supposed to rip the U.S. in 2 millions of years ago but didn't), we would probably have a more normal climate.

Interesting to think about considering that the climate of the U.S. almost resembles nothing of its latitude twins, Australia and NZ. The U.S. stretches from, off by 2 degrees each direction, from Rockhampton, Qld to Invercargill, NZ. So pretty much most of the U.S. falls under NSW-like latitudes yet we don't have NSW weather and yet Florida (which from north to south, follows latitudes from almost Rockhampton to Coffs Harbour) has cold spells these 2 Oz cities don't experience.

I think that the fact that the U.S. is centered further poleward than Australia is a good thing though. I think that's the main reason why the U.S. does not have the Outback like Australia does.

Yes exactly, which also explains why the U.S. is also the most tornado prone country on earth. Tornadoes strike most places in the world where cold and warm air can mix, but the U.S. suffers particularly more than any other country with similar climate conditions. Like you said, it's due to the volatility of air masses.

I see what you mean about the high pressure cells that you mentioned. It would also explain why it can get bitterly cold here, even in the south. A British friend of mine from the Midlands of England went to Florida last November, and she remarked how it was a lot cooler than she expected it to be (she came during a week when there were strong cold fronts blowing across the U.S.) and I said that the U.S. is strange in that even in the South warm winter days are not guaranteed. I wonder how much different the climate of the eastern U.S. would be if we had no Rocky Mountains. Certainly the west coast air masses would penetrate much further inland but I don't know if it would have any effect on the east coast. Interesting also is our east coast is awash in rain, even though the Rockies prevent Pacific moisture from moving inland, whereas in Australia the Great Dividing Range robs the Outback of moisture and WA is parched.

When you talked about NY, that's true as well. That also depends on if the air is blowing in from inland or from an ocean. We can see how NY has a continental climate despite being on the coast, whereas comparable cities and towns on the West Coast have a more wet Mediterranean climate. The U.S. defies logic when it comes to explaining how climate regions work nothing works the way it's supposed to here mostly because of our geography. And yes, the fact that most of North America is centered high above the equator, means that during winter when the sun is weak, the land loses the little heat it holds. If we had a vast inland sea in the middle of the U.S. (like we supposedly were supposed to since the New Madrid Fault is a failed fault system that supposed to rip the U.S. in 2 millions of years ago but didn't), we would probably have a more normal climate.

Interesting to think about considering that the climate of the U.S. almost resembles nothing of its latitude twins, Australia and NZ. The U.S. stretches from, off by 2 degrees each direction, from Rockhampton, Qld to Invercargill, NZ. So pretty much most of the U.S. falls under NSW-like latitudes yet we don't have NSW weather and yet Florida (which from north to south, follows latitudes from almost Rockhampton to Coffs Harbour) has cold spells these 2 Oz cities don't experience.

I think that the fact that the U.S. is centered further poleward than Australia is a good thing though. I think that's the main reason why the U.S. does not have the Outback like Australia does.

By the way, doesn't inland NSW around Vic get very cold in winter?

I would say 'warm' is definitely a relative term when it comes to climate. Americans talk about how 'mild' the south is, whereas places like Canberra, which are similar to Memphis or Columbia, SC, are considered cold compared to the milder coastal cities. You ask if inland NSW and Victoria get very cold during winter, well that depends on what you mean by 'very cold' . Our coldest region is the Australian Alps, which is really a pretty small region in Southeastern NSW and Victoria, and our record low is 'only' -23.0C at Charlotte Pass, about 1900 metres above sea-level. The average in many of these ski resorts is actually only a degree or two above freezing, and I heard if not for the very high precipitation totals they get they would be too warm for snow sports. Indeed, in many years they are too warm for snow sports. Some years are so bad the slopes can be green almost all winter, even the highest parts.

Our coldest city is probably Orange, NSW, which averages from -2 to 9, probably on par with somewhere like Nashville, TN or Raleigh, NC. It's situated at above 1000 metres asl (3200 feet or so) and gets a few snowfalls a year.

The US landmass is pretty big, so I doubt the climate would be greatly influenced by the Pacific much east of say Wyoming anyway, even without the Rockies. Interestingly though the Pacific mildness extends as far as Great Falls, Montana, and Missoula is actually pretty mild (similar to Chicago in temps with warm spells). I wouldn't say the US goes against what you would expect for it's climate; it's just a very different setup from Europe, probably a bit between Asia and Europe but far more like Asia or far Eastern Europe really.

Latitudinally speaking the lower 48 is centered around 37.5'N, which is the latitudinal where solar radiation is equal - anywhere north receives more solar radiation than it loses, while anywhere south receives more. This could be seen as the 'middle zone' between the pole and the equator, and interestingly enough locations like Melbourne, SF and even somewhere like Virginia Beach has an annual mean temp around 15C/60F, which is also roughly the global average temperature. So in many senses the US is temperate in both location and climate.

Oz obviously doesn't experience the severe cold you do because we are thousands of kilometres from Antarctica. When people speak of the 'winds that come off' Antarctica from the Southern ocean they are exaggerating or rather ignorant (the winds don't come directly from Antarctica anyway), as the airmasses coming off the Southern Ocean are no colder than that off the coast of California or the Atlantic off the coast of the Carolinas. The climate in southern Oz is dominated by settled weather interrupted by cold fronts, which despite their name aren't really cold at all and sometimes even bring milder weather.

That's what I think too. Take note as well. Australia has a huge expanse of ocean below it. Air currents come up from Antarctica and hit the Melbourne area but they are wet and mild, like the Gulf Stream that hits the British Isles. Whereas in our case, there is no large open ocean above us. We have a super huge landmass that we affectionately call Canada that keeps the cold Arctic air cold. So we would have far more consistent warm winters (instead of warm one day, cold the next), if also Canada didn't exist. We would have the same exact situation as the State of Victoria does and where I live would maybe be similar to Melbourne. Look at Arizona. It's 70-80 degrees much of the time in the winter yet at comparable latitude to Charleston, SC which is still cool in winter. Arizona has super tall mountains blocking cold Canadian air from infiltrating, in addition to the fact that Phoenix is what, 7000 feet lower in elevation than northern Arizona? It can be 80 in Phoenix, and 40 degrees in Flagstaff for example.

So I used the Arizona situation and also Spain's geography to explain why the U.S. is the way it is. Think about it with Spain too. France is above it, and their winters are about 40s for the most part, 50s in the Mediterranean area and the Spanish border. Perpignan, north of the Pyrenees can be about 40-45 degrees in winter, whereas Girona, on the south side of the Pyrenees, can be up to 60 degrees and they're only about an hour apart. But what separates them is a mountain chain that can rise to around 8000 feet high. That chain blocks the colder, wetter northern European air from infiltrating the Iberian peninsula (Spain also has the north coast mountains as well, blocking rain and some cold from infiltrating the interior). So Spain has the northern mountains that we lack, that give it it's milder and sunnier climate compared to southern France and we see that all of France is cold in winter. The U.S. is in the same situation France is in while Spain enjoys the benefits of tall mountains giving it a more pleasant winter, and that's how I arrived at my conclusion. As we all know on this forum, latitude is not the only indicator of climate, geography and placement greatly affects climate as well, which is why Labrador is frigid freezing in winter, but the British Isles has weather like Seattle.

I think a lot of what defines climate comes from your location on the plant. Someone in New Orleans or Charleston who is used to a long, hot, sunny, sultry summer…might scoff at a city like Sydney being called “subtropical” because it is so cool much of the year. Because of a larger landmass and stronger winter monsoon, both Asia and North America have advections of colder air than the small continents like Australia. If fact we are a cross between Asia and Australia in terms of how continental we are. Mobile, AL and Shanghai are both located close to 30 latitude…but the January mean temp in Shanghai is 38 F…while it is close to 50 F in Mobile. This is due to the fact that the winter monsoon is steadier in Asia. On the other hand, Sydney is a few degress warmer than Charleston in the winter months becasue Australia has no real landmass above it.

On the other had, cities in Australia average cooler than cities in the Eastern USA because their small landmass surround by water moderates their summers. Most people would be shocked who live in the American subtropics how cold the Australian subtropics are in summer by comparison. Even cities in higher latitudes make many cities in Australia seem cold in the summer. Washington Dc is WARMER than Sydney in summer, and just as warm as Brisbane. Yet, Brisbane is near 27 latitude…and Washington DC near 37 latitude.

Personally, I think the shock value would be higher for an Aussie spending a winter in "warm" Columbia SC, rather than a person from Charleston spending a summer in Brisbane.

I would never consider an average high of 86 with a low of 70 "cold", which is what Brisbane is approximately in summer. Charleston averages around 88 high, low 77. Warmer nights yeah, but I would never consider a night low of 70 cold.

On the other hand, how would a person from almost anywhere in NSW feel with these temps for Columbia, SC, a city right in the heart of the lowland south. The temps are from a week in January 2009, a month which ended up being almost right on the long term average. Intersting is that Columbia has higher average temps, but I'll bet Canberra hasn't hit 13 any time recently, since the all time record low is 14.

Of course to arrive at a normal monthly temp there were 70 degree days in the beginning of the month. To me, this climate is cold with just enough warm days to bring your average up. A low of 13 on the 17th. These temps are not anomalies, but happen every winter. I'd take Aus climate any day.

Personally, I think the shock value would be higher for an Aussie spending a winter in "warm" Columbia SC, rather than a person from Charleston spending a summer in Brisbane.

I would never consider an average high of 86 with a low of 70 "cold", which is what Brisbane is approximately in summer. Charleston averages around 88 high, low 77. Warmer nights yeah, but I would never consider a night low of 70 cold.

I agree with you there….cities like Brisbane, Gold Coast, Port Mac, …etc are true humid subtropical stations, just as Perth is subtropical (only Cs type like San Diego, LA…etc). I was comparing cities like Charleston, New Orleans, Houston, ..etc with subtropical Australian cities like Sydney, Canberra, Newcastle, ...etc. To be fair to the word “subtropical”…I can’t in good faith call a city like Sydney, Canberra, Adelaide, and much North Island, New Zealand subtropical – they just are too cool in the warm season. To me subtropical locations should have at least a few months ( even if only 3 months long) with mean temps of 76/77 F or higher….just as you would find in the hot season in true tropical places (Caribbean, Vietnam, Central America, Brazil…etc).

Yet, cities like Sydney have summers as cool as Salt Lake City, Chicago, or Boston. I have spent a summer in each of those locations, and while warm… they are a far cry from the unrelenting heat, sun, and change in air mass you experience in a true subtropical climate like New Orleans, Charleston…etc. Look at it this way. If a Boreal (subarctic) climate had warm winters…would it deserve the Boreal designations. The fleeting cool shots that the subtropical zone in the deep south gets last a few days on avaergae...but the cool summers that cities like Sydney has lasts three or four months. The greater outweighs the less IMO.

At times I really think when you look at the cloudiness, cool summer mean temps, seasonal rainfall profiles…etc…of subtropical cities like Sydney, Canberra, North Island, NZ are really just a glorified oceanic climates in fact.

I agree with you there….cities like Brisbane, Gold Coast, Port Mac, …etc are true humid subtropical stations, just as Perth is subtropical (only Cs type like San Diego, LA…etc). I was comparing cities like Charleston, New Orleans, Houston, ..etc with subtropical Australian cities like Sydney, Canberra, Newcastle, ...etc. To be fair to the word “subtropical”…I can’t in good faith call a city like Sydney, Canberra, Adelaide, and much North Island, New Zealand subtropical – they just are too cool in the warm season. To me subtropical locations should have at least a few months ( even if only 3 months long) with mean temps of 76/77 F or higher….just as you would find in the hot season in true tropical places (Caribbean, Vietnam, Central America, Brazil…etc).

Yet, cities like Sydney have summers as cool as Salt Lake City, Chicago, or Boston. I have spent a summer in each of those locations, and while warm… they are a far cry from the unrelenting heat, sun, and change in air mass you experience in a true subtropical climate like New Orleans, Charleston…etc. Look at it this way. If a Boreal (subarctic) climate had warm winters…would it deserve the Boreal designations. The fleeting cool shots that the subtropical zone in the deep south gets last a few days on avaergae...but the cool summers that cities like Sydney has lasts three or four months. The greater outweighs the less IMO.

At times I really think when you look at the cloudiness, cool summer mean temps, seasonal rainfall profiles…etc…of subtropical cities like Sydney, Canberra, North Island, NZ are really just a glorified oceanic climates in fact.

I guess my perception is that it is not fleeting. I've been down south quite a few times in winter and each time it's either been really warm or just downright cold. Even in a month that ends up well above normal, a place like Columbia will have a low of 20. I think the winter cold blasts diminish the otherwise nice climates of the south. It seems to only happen here and in Asia, so I think perceptions of sub-tropics are skewed. In the US we get hard freeze cold in what almost all other similiar latitude locations never get. Hence you really are limited in what you can grow in SC. I'm sure every other location at Charleston's latitude in the world, except China, has the ability to grow citrus at sea level.

I guess my perception is that it is not fleeting. I've been down south quite a few times in winter and each time it's either been really warm or just downright cold. Even in a month that ends up well above normal, a place like Columbia will have a low of 20. I think the winter cold blasts diminish the otherwise nice climates of the south. It seems to only happen here and in Asia, so I think perceptions of sub-tropics are skewed. In the US we get hard freeze cold in what almost all other similiar latitude locations never get. Hence you really are limited in what you can grow in SC. I'm sure every other location at Charleston's latitude in the world, except China, has the ability to grow citrus at sea level.

Actually, they can grow citrus in Charleston city, many people grow citrus in private gardens all along the Gulf Coast as well. Texas has large scale citrus production farms in the Corpus Christi area. However, I'm not sure the abilty to grow/or not grow citrus makes a city "subtropical" or not. True subtropical crops like rice, sugercane, cotten, will not grow in cities in southern Europe that are as mild as Charleston in winter. Why? Becasue most of the year they are too cold. A few days of the year, normally doesn't determin the overall climate of any location, or so Koppen says (lol).

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