noles1 wrote:Looking at some Florida sites I'm seeing a 3rd and 5th with mention of a conditional for next year. (likely performance-based)

I think you mean what the Saints 'gave'.

I honestly dont see any circumstance that we take less than what the Saints got. Even if we do get what the Saints got (2nd and 5th) it is still a worse deal because of draft position. I just cant imagine we took a 3rd and 5th.

You're still assuming Winslow is a better player than Shockey. When both are/were healthy Shockey is/was significantly more valuable due to the fact he never had to come off the field. I know people here don't want to hear it, but Shockey was worth more then than Winslow is now.

That's not disputing that Winslow can be a huge talent.

Add in the fact that Shockey went to a team that pictured him as the perfect complement to Brees and the missing cog to a Super Bowl-claiber team and they were willing to give what they gave. The teams involved are completely different as are their needs and chances of winning.

Make no mistake, I'm not saying the Browns are better TODAY than they were yesterday. They aren't. They hope to be better in two years w/o Winslow than they would be in two years with him.

Not to mention that the Shockey deal is recognized as a poor deal on the Saints part. Why would another team not learn from it and not try to do better?

You have to look at it from both sides. Yeah, that's what the deal was last year but the deal turned out BAD for the Saints, so it set the market back, not improved it for a like player in Winslow.

Playing here is the closest thing to heaven. Really, I mean it's amazing to be in a place where the fans truly cherish their football team and stick behind them win or lose. We players love them, too. I feel a sense of accomplishment playing here, we are a special breed of football players with a great opportunity." ~ tOSU LB Brian Rolle

Sources say the Browns got a second-round pick this year and a fifth-rounder in 2010 from Tampa Bay in exchange for tight end Kellen Winslow, Cleveland's first-round pick in '04. That strikes me as a great deal for the Browns, to get that much for a player they weren't very enamored with.

Cleveland's new regime of head coach Eric Mangini and general manager George Kokinis wanted to both increase Cleveland's draft firepower this year, and to weed out a potential problem player who was both angling for a new contract and hasn't always been on the same page as Browns management. And yes, that's an understatement.

Browns owner Randy Lerner is believed to have been in favor of retaining Winslow, but he went along with the wishes of his new front office team. The Browns now have five draft picks this year: a first, two seconds, a fourth and a sixth.

A second and a fifth? I don't hate that. My immediate reaction was a second and a fourth, but that's probably expecting too much. I'd have been upset if the best they could do was a third, but 2/5 seems pretty good for a malcontent with injury issues.

Whats up folks, this trade is disgusting! We just got rid of Brady Quinn's best target for some crummy draft picks that probably won't end up ever being starters, let alone pro bowlers! We should have traded Winslow for a proven player if we were going to trade him at all. This smacks of the same stupidity of other move like Joe Thomas over Adrian Peterson, Couch over McNabb or the Raiders genius move of Randy Mosss for a fourth rounder

Anyways, the Browns need to get a STUD LB and a STUD RB asap but they won't, man I am getting sick of the Browns ineptitude

Do teams trade players for players anymore ? With the salary cap you sign FA and and trade players for draft picks. I miss the days when you saw the player for player swaps. I guess I am old school in that respect ?

jujuman wrote:This smacks of the same stupidity of other move like Joe Thomas over Adrian Peterson

And that's where I stopped reading.

Seriously??? Did you watch Joe Thomas get eatin up all year giving up sacks? O-line is way easier to find than a true stud Running Back! All we had/have is washed up Lewis and we pass on the best rb to come out in years! WTF is wrong with people who think that fat o-linemen are better than bad ass running backs? whatever

Gotta hand it to K2 for having a sense of humor at the "I'm a Souljah" song that Andre Nott played.

I'm actually going to miss him..I like the trade, but I think it sucks he's gone.

Swerb wrote:Go start a blog if you want to tell the world your incomprehendible ramblings.

Cerebral_DownTime wrote:I have a big arm and can throw the ball pretty damn far...... maybe even over those moutains. The Browns should sign me, i'll let you all in locker room to drink beer. Then we can all go out the parking lot to watch me do motorcycle stunts.

jujuman wrote:This smacks of the same stupidity of other move like Joe Thomas over Adrian Peterson

And that's where I stopped reading.

Seriously??? Did you watch Joe Thomas get eatin up all year giving up sacks? O-line is way easier to find than a true stud Running Back! All we had/have is washed up Lewis and we pass on the best rb to come out in years! WTF is wrong with people who think that fat o-linemen are better than bad ass running backs? whatever

Double seriously?????? Take a looksie around the NFL. Running backs are a dime a dozen.

jujuman wrote:This smacks of the same stupidity of other move like Joe Thomas over Adrian Peterson

And that's where I stopped reading.

Seriously??? Did you watch Joe Thomas get eatin up all year giving up sacks? O-line is way easier to find than a true stud Running Back! All we had/have is washed up Lewis and we pass on the best rb to come out in years! WTF is wrong with people who think that fat o-linemen are better than bad ass running backs? whatever

Double seriously?????? Take a looksie around the NFL. Running backs are a dime a dozen.

Winslow came off as complete class act in the Andre Knott Interview. Not bitter at all about, gotta hand it to the guy.

More power to the guy. I hope he does well and helps Tampa do well.

Swerb wrote:Go start a blog if you want to tell the world your incomprehendible ramblings.

Cerebral_DownTime wrote:I have a big arm and can throw the ball pretty damn far...... maybe even over those moutains. The Browns should sign me, i'll let you all in locker room to drink beer. Then we can all go out the parking lot to watch me do motorcycle stunts.

jujuman wrote:This smacks of the same stupidity of other move like Joe Thomas over Adrian Peterson

And that's where I stopped reading.

Seriously??? Did you watch Joe Thomas get eatin up all year giving up sacks? O-line is way easier to find than a true stud Running Back! All we had/have is washed up Lewis and we pass on the best rb to come out in years! WTF is wrong with people who think that fat o-linemen are better than bad ass running backs? whatever

Double seriously?????? Take a looksie around the NFL. Running backs are a dime a dozen.

I said a STUD running back, one who goes to the pro bowl every year with Hall of Fame potential, not an average piece of crap. Anyways, lets just agree to disagree on this because I realize that me and you do have something in common, I hate Andrea Davis just as much as you!

jujuman wrote:This smacks of the same stupidity of other move like Joe Thomas over Adrian Peterson

And that's where I stopped reading.

Seriously??? Did you watch Joe Thomas get eatin up all year giving up sacks? O-line is way easier to find than a true stud Running Back! All we had/have is washed up Lewis and we pass on the best rb to come out in years! WTF is wrong with people who think that fat o-linemen are better than bad ass running backs? whatever

Double seriously?????? Take a looksie around the NFL. Running backs are a dime a dozen.

I said a STUD running back, one who goes to the pro bowl every year with Hall of Fame potential, not an average piece of crap. Anyways, lets just agree to disagree on this because I realize that me and you do have something in common, I hate Andrea Davis just as much as you!

Every draft class has that guy who looks like he COULD be a stud RB with HoF potential. So many bust or burn out. Peterson so far has lived up to the hype. Thomas was the smart pick. Build from the line of scrimmage. A B-grade RB can look like an A+ with the right landmovers in front of him, and an A+ RB becomes a cautionary tale with a weak line.

Triple-S wrote:Winslow came off as complete class act in the Andre Knott Interview. Not bitter at all about, gotta hand it to the guy.

More power to the guy. I hope he does well and helps Tampa do well.

Yes, I heard it too.

I think Kellen Winslow was a lot farther down the list as far as issues go.

I think Phil was pretty slimey through out his years here and pretty much made KII out to be the bad guy and not a team guy.

I got quite the opposite impression in the interview. Maybe he's just good at PR, but with the way savage treated him last year, I would have wanted to rip him a new a-hole. Not KII, He thanked the fans and said he'd miss them, and told us all to pull for Heiden, I guess his best friend on the team.

I don't think this trade had much to do with his attitude, as it had more to do with the Browns needing to become better through the draft. They were not going to win this year, and they need to build themselves up.

Last edited by Triple-S on Fri Feb 27, 2009 4:58 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Swerb wrote:Go start a blog if you want to tell the world your incomprehendible ramblings.

Cerebral_DownTime wrote:I have a big arm and can throw the ball pretty damn far...... maybe even over those moutains. The Browns should sign me, i'll let you all in locker room to drink beer. Then we can all go out the parking lot to watch me do motorcycle stunts.

This was the classic "sell high", "strike while the iron's hot" or "any other cliche you can think of" move.

I loved having Winslow on the team, but talent is only great when it's on the field when you need it. How can anyone say with confidence that Winslow would ever be healthy for a playoff run? His body is a train wreck and has broken down way too much.

I heard them talking about Greg Oden on one of the national call-in shows the other day (perhaps the Herd) and the analyst had a great analogy: great car, just in the shop too much.

That's Winslow to a tee. Great player, wants to win and is obsessed about winning, but forever going to pay for his mistake as a 19 yr old.

Hey, I haven't read every post in this thread, but refresh my memory...

We traded our 6th pick and a later round pick (lets say a third, don't remember, help me out guys) to move up one spot to #5 to get K2, didn't we... (a move I thought was crazy, because I think K2 was going to be there at 6)

So in hindsight, using the transitive property, we traded a first round (the #6) and a 3rd round pick to for a 3rd and a 5th round pick???

Check my math.... please show your work...

"The nose of the bulldog has been slanted backwards so that he can breathe without letting go." -- Winston Churchill

OldDawg wrote:Hey, I haven't read every post in this thread, but refresh my memory...

We traded our 6th pick and a later round pick (lets say a third, don't remember, help me out guys) to move up one spot to #5 to get K2, didn't we... (a move I thought was crazy, because I think K2 was going to be there at 6)

So in hindsight, using the transitive property, we traded a first round (the #6) and a 3rd round pick to for a 3rd and a 5th round pick???

Check my math.... please show your work...

It's supposedly a 2nd and a 5th.

Yes, but Winslow has declining value. If he pulled another great season off he'd be worth more but that's far from a lock.

OldDawg wrote:Hey, I haven't read every post in this thread, but refresh my memory...

We traded our 6th pick and a later round pick (lets say a third, don't remember, help me out guys) to move up one spot to #5 to get K2, didn't we... (a move I thought was crazy, because I think K2 was going to be there at 6)

So in hindsight, using the transitive property, we traded a first round (the #6) and a 3rd round pick to for a 3rd and a 5th round pick???

Check my math.... please show your work...

We traded a Rd 2 pick to the Lions to move from 7 to 6 to take KWII. But, that was the Butch Davis administration, can't lay that on Kokinis. It was like when Ferry jettisoned Jiri Welsch for a Rd 2 pick after Paxson had just traded a Rd 1 to get him. Just because previous regimes made mistakes, doesn't mean you have to live by them or make up for them, you just have to make the right moves. Butch didn't, I think they did today.

"The point is, ladies and gentleman, that greed, for lack of a better word, is good. Greed is right, greed works. Greed clarifies, cuts through, and captures the essence of the evolutionary spirit. Greed, in all of its forms; greed for life, for money, for love, knowledge has marked the upward surge of mankind."

Pup wrote:Anyone take this bet...Pro Bowl appearances for Winslow versus any Browns TE for the rest of Kellen's career?

I'll take that bet. What's in it?

Seriously, even if he's right, who cares? Tight ends aren't exactly the most important ingredients to a Superbowl caliber team. I'd take a Pro Bowl linebacker, receiver, quarterback, nose tackl, left tackle, right tackle (any O lineman in fact) and possibly other positions way , way before I took a pro bowl TE.

Mr. MacPhisto wrote:I seriously doubt it is for the Bucs' first rounder. Probably a lower pick this year and a conditional pick next year that could go up the 2nd round if Winslow puts up great numbers.

Pup wrote:Anyone take this bet...Pro Bowl appearances for Winslow versus any Browns TE for the rest of Kellen's career?

I'll take that bet. What's in it?

Seriously, even if he's right, who cares? Tight ends aren't exactly the most important ingredients to a Superbowl caliber team. I'd take a Pro Bowl linebacker, receiver, quarterback, nose tackl, left tackle, right tackle (any O lineman in fact) and possibly other positions way , way before I took a pro bowl TE.

Ever watch Jay Novachek?

BQ as QB? His style? His system to succeed?

And creating hole just to fill them makes any sense how?

Jesus. And here I thought you could think. Do you understand football?

OldDawg wrote:Hey, I haven't read every post in this thread, but refresh my memory...

We traded our 6th pick and a later round pick (lets say a third, don't remember, help me out guys) to move up one spot to #5 to get K2, didn't we... (a move I thought was crazy, because I think K2 was going to be there at 6)

So in hindsight, using the transitive property, we traded a first round (the #6) and a 3rd round pick to for a 3rd and a 5th round pick???

Check my math.... please show your work...

I always hate this kind of analysis. It assumes we just upped and traded a guy for someone else and the only thing we got is what you see in the draft picks. You have to add in his performance for us if you play that game:

First (#6) + Second for Second, Fifth, and 2007 Pro Bowl year (plus receptions in other years). Part of the reason he is less valuable than when he was drafted is because we put some mileage on him (even apart from the injury he suffered on the motorcycle). You can't measure the return on a race car by by what you sell it for without also factoring in how many races you won while you owned it.

I'd like to put another spin on this trade. I think I can say without doubt that the Giants game last year was our most complete "team" effort. Refreshing your memories, that game was played without the "soldier". Our TE production was: Heiden 5 Rec 59 yrds Dinkins 1 Rec 22 yrds and a TD. The rushing game was solid with Lewis and Harrison combining for 129 yrds and a TD. Bottom line Man/Kok saw on film that a shitty ball club beat the SB champs handily without the "soldier".

Bottom line, we lost a talented player but not an irreplaceable player. To get a second pick is a good deal for an oft injured prima dona that wasn't even a part of the best game of the season last year. I know I wasn't asking "man where's K2?" during that Giants thrashing and I doubt you were either.

Great move! Get something for him before he breaks down permanently on our paycheck

He's a physical wreck looking for an opportunity and every big? play he made last year was negated by a 15 yd penalty for stupidity

In the end he'll go down as just another coulda/shoulda/woulda/ifonly.....

Karma's a bitch, eh?

....'sides, I always thought he be a better 'big' WR than 'small' TE. Peeps say the safties can't match up with him but, fuckin'aye, what about a diminuative CB? He shoulda been used in JJ's place last yr with Heiden fulltime at TE.....but WTF do I know?

In any event, this is the best trade the FO has made since the return. DA should be next and Rogers should be wary.

I see it as a statement, also, to BE.....get your shit together and STFU!

Pup wrote:Anyone take this bet...Pro Bowl appearances for Winslow versus any Browns TE for the rest of Kellen's career?

I'll take that bet. What's in it?

Seriously, even if he's right, who cares? Tight ends aren't exactly the most important ingredients to a Superbowl caliber team. I'd take a Pro Bowl linebacker, receiver, quarterback, nose tackl, left tackle, right tackle (any O lineman in fact) and possibly other positions way , way before I took a pro bowl TE.

Ever watch Jay Novachek?

BQ as QB? His style? His system to succeed?

And creating hole just to fill them makes any sense how?

Jesus. And here I thought you could think. Do you understand football?

This is politcal. 100 % .

BEST BE RIGHT.

Hold your horses Charlie, don't fall off the high horse quite yet.

I agree it is partly political. They are getting rid of a potential drama llama, and a guy who apparently is STILL crowing for a new, bigger contract. I like Winslow, but he is (and I hate this) what he is.

We don't need him, he doesn't fit in with what Mangini is building, so he is gone for draft picks that will be used to get players who 1) do fit in with what he is building and 2) don't have knees that are going to collapse sometime within the next year and 3) will actually see the field, unlike Winslow who is always hurt.

And seriously, I said TE isn't exactly the most important ingredient to a Superbowl caliber club. So you list me a great TE who won a Superbowl? Please tell me what the HELL that has to do with anything.

ShadowDawg wrote:I'd like to put another spin on this trade. I think I can say without doubt that the Giants game last year was our most complete "team" effort. Refreshing your memories, that game was played without the "soldier". Our TE production was: Heiden 5 Rec 59 yrds Dinkins 1 Rec 22 yrds and a TD. The rushing game was solid with Lewis and Harrison combining for 129 yrds and a TD. Bottom line Man/Kok saw on film that a shitty ball club beat the SB champs handily without the "soldier".

Bottom line, we lost a talented player but not an irreplaceable player. To get a second pick is a good deal for an oft injured prima dona that wasn't even a part of the best game of the season last year. I know I wasn't asking "man where's K2?" during that Giants thrashing and I doubt you were either.

That's not how you build. That's now how the Miami's went from worst to first.

So he had an attitude. So he couldn't get the staph problem resolved with the management and didn't know where else to turn. We're not marrying him, we're watching him play football. Get over it.

So instead of retooling, we're tearing it down to nothing and starting over. After 42 years of futility (for some of you, longer than that) now we get to wait 3-5 more years to see if these guys have any idea how to draft a team from scratch. Friggen awesome.

Every year I understand why some NE Ohioans follow other teams. What a joke. Not worth my time.

Yeah, in the world of the NFL when you are one offseason away from winning and getting back to the playoffs, anytime you trade away a Pro Bowl caliber player in the prime of his career and just get back a few draft picks it is concerning.

Do the Browns have holes? Yes. But this team ain't a lot different in makeup than the one that went 10-6 in 2007. Maybe the team played over its heads in 2007, or did not play up to their potential in 2008....who knows. I still think most of the problem was RAC/Savage and how they managed and contructed the team and that we have some very good pieces to get this ship righted NOW and back to winning next year.

If you have good leadership in place and know what the hell you are doing, you can rebound from a bad season like the browns had in 2008 and get back to winning in 2009. Trading him cripples those chances, cause as much as people want to think Heiden/Rucker are more than capable to fill Winslow's shoes....they aren't.

Creating a hole just to turn around and have to fill it is not what I had in mind this offseason. Now, if we had a young up-and-comer at TE like we do at QB with Quinn, I'd be fine maybe with trading Winslow like I am with trading DA.

This team has maybe a half dozen star caliber players, and Winslow was one of them.

I was lukewarm about the whole ManKok thing to begin with....God I hope they know what they are doing because I just am not inspired by this tandem.

Consigliere wrote:Yeah, in the world of the NFL when you are one offseason away from winning and getting back to the playoffs, anytime you trade away a Pro Bowl caliber player in the prime of his career and just get back a few draft picks it is concerning.

Do the Browns have holes? Yes. But this team ain't a lot different in makeup than the one that went 10-6 in 2007. Maybe the team played over its heads in 2007, or did not play up to their potential in 2008....who knows. I still think most of the problem was RAC/Savage and how they managed and contructed the team and that we have some very good pieces to get this ship righted NOW and back to winning next year.

If you have good leadership in place and know what the hell you are doing, you can rebound from a bad season like the browns had in 2008 and get back to winning in 2009. Trading him cripples those chances, cause as much as people want to think Heiden/Rucker are more than capable to fill Winslow's shoes....they aren't.

Creating a hole just to turn around and have to fill it is not what I had in mind this offseason. Now, if we had a young up-and-comer at TE like we do at QB with Quinn, I'd be fine maybe with trading Winslow like I am with trading DA.

This team has maybe a half dozen star caliber players, and Winslow was one of them.

I was lukewarm about the whole ManKok thing to begin with....God I hope they know what they are doing because I just am not inspired by this tandem.

Are you insinuating that the team as compromised, Winslow or not, was somewhat close?

There is a difference between having a chance to rebound with a soft schedule and win 8 or 9 games, and being a championship quality team.

They were not a championship quality team when they won 10 two years ago, and they certainly aren't now.

This whole should they rebuild? question. I guess it depends on your definition, but past experience would lead me to believe, a new coaching regime, question mark at the most important position on the field, about 3 defenders worth a damn, and needs all over the friggin place......

They are NOT close. N-O-T C-L-O-S-E.

And I understand how things turn around quickly in today's NFL. That has been considered, and they are still NOT CLOSE.

Whether you like the Winslow deal or not, the illusuion that if they kept him they are right around the corner....What the hell was I watchin' on sundays?

Lead Pipe wrote:Are you insinuating that the team as compromised, Winslow or not, was somewhat close?

There is a difference between having a chance to rebound with a soft schedule and win 8 or 9 games, and being a championship quality team.

They were not a championship quality team when they won 10 two years ago, and they certainly aren't now.

This whole should they rebuild? question. I guess it depends on your definition, but past experience would lead me to believe, a new coaching regime, question mark at the most important position on the field, about 3 defenders worth a damn, and needs all over the friggin place......

They are NOT close. N-O-T C-L-O-S-E.

And I understand how things turn around quickly in today's NFL. That has been considered, and they are still NOT CLOSE.

Whether you like the Winslow deal or not, the illusuion that if they kept him they are right around the corner....What the hell was I watchin' on sundays?

I guess it is all perception.

You get the right leadership in here and make some key moves, the browns very well could be in 2009 what the Dolphins and Falcons were in 2008. At this time last year no one ever considered the Dolphins and Falcons playoff caliber....yet you get the right staff in place and make the right moves and viola, look what happens.

Hopefully ManKok can do the same....but trading Winslow leaves me more skeptical on them. A rebuild is not necessary...a retool yes, but not a rebuild.

I heard them talking about Greg Oden on one of the national call-in shows the other day (perhaps the Herd) and the analyst had a great analogy: great car, just in the shop too much.

Good analogy, except in this case the owner of the car put water in the gas tank not paying attention and when the car complained he blamed the car for not being a team player.

It's hard to stay healthy when you catch the funk from the training room.

There are some cancerous tumors on this team, who ran their mouth and performed like crap. Kellen and Shaun are at the bottom of that list. In fact I'd go so far as to say they were among the very few play makers last year.

That's like rebuilding the Cavs by trading away LeBron and Mo for low round draft picks, or the Tribe trading Lee and Sizemore for B list prospects. UNless it's their contract year.

I gave these guys a chance. Now it's time to pick an NFC team to follow.

I heard them talking about Greg Oden on one of the national call-in shows the other day (perhaps the Herd) and the analyst had a great analogy: great car, just in the shop too much.

There are some cancerous tumors on this team, who ran their mouth and performed like crap. Kellen and Shaun are at the bottom of that list. In fact I'd go so far as to say they were among the very few play makers last year.

That's like rebuilding the Cavs by trading away LeBron and Mo for low round draft picks, or the Tribe trading Lee and Sizemore for B list prospects. UNless it's their contract year.

Actually, trading Winslow is absolutely nothing like that. Winslow is nowhere near as important to this team as the gentlemen you listed, especially in a sport like football where individual players make less of a difference than in any other sport. Comparing Winslow to LeBron and Sizemore is like comparing me to Brad Pitt.

Winslow was traded because the cost of his attitude, injuries and demand for a new contract outweighed his value on the field.

His style of play as great as it is to watch will take even a greater toll on his body as he ages, he knows this and that’s why he wants to re-work his contract to get more guarantied money up front. I can see his point, but the Browns do not need the potential distraction of him holding out this spring.

On a side note a friend of mine had the chance to hear Savage speak about the Browns at Ohio Wealseyn about a few weeks ago. He spoke for about 45 min to the group then to my buddy for about 10min personally nothing official just 2 guys talking football. It is nothing that is ground breaking but if there is some interest I will start a thread. The reason I bring this up is because Savage had some interesting comments regarding Winslow. To paraphrase Winslow was a cancer off the field, he got into it with almost everybody in the origination at one time or another, Savage stated that he did not have a major problem with Winslow that any issue that they had was a result of the Cleveland media blowing things out of proportion.

Before anyone attacks me, asks for a link or calls me a troll, I really don’t care. I am just a regular guy telling you something that I heard that some of you might be interested in hearing.

That's not how you build. That's now how the Miami's went from worst to first.

So he had an attitude. So he couldn't get the staph problem resolved with the management and didn't know where else to turn. We're not marrying him, we're watching him play football. Get over it.

So instead of retooling, we're tearing it down to nothing and starting over. After 42 years of futility (for some of you, longer than that) now we get to wait 3-5 more years to see if these guys have any idea how to draft a team from scratch. Friggen awesome.

Every year I understand why some NE Ohioans follow other teams. What a joke. Not worth my time.

When those Pro Bowlers have the baggage and risk that Kellen Winslow brings along? I'm afraid...yes, it is how you build. A guy who wants a new contract (yes, he is pining for one even after the terrible 2008) and has glass knees? Can't keep him around for the long term, just can't.

Winslow was traded because the cost of his attitude, injuries and demand for a new contract outweighed his value on the field.

His style of play as great as it is to watch will take even a greater toll on his body as he ages, he knows this and that’s why he wants to re-work his contract to get more guarantied money up front. I can see his point, but the Browns do not need the potential distraction of him holding out this spring.

On a side note a friend of mine had the chance to hear Savage speak about the Browns at Ohio Wealseyn about a few weeks ago. He spoke for about 45 min to the group then to my buddy for about 10min personally nothing official just 2 guys talking football. It is nothing that is ground breaking but if there is some interest I will start a thread. The reason I bring this up is because Savage had some interesting comments regarding Winslow. To paraphrase Winslow was a cancer off the field, he got into it with almost everybody in the origination at one time or another, Savage stated that he did not have a major problem with Winslow that any issue that they had was a result of the Cleveland media blowing things out of proportion.

Before anyone attacks me, asks for a link or calls me a troll, I really don’t care. I am just a regular guy telling you something that I heard that some of you might be interested in hearing.

Yup. 100% correct. On top of that, the guy doesn't block at the line nor down field. Seriously. He is one dimensional. He makes great plays as a receiver, WHEN he's on the field, and has a penchant for dumb penalties.

That's the kind of player he is. I love his fiery attitude but...it was time to part.

Can we get something clear. Winslow became a Pro Bowler because some guys bowed out. If you want to get real technical then he isn't a Pro Bowler.

Now if you would prefer not to, you have then recognize DA as a legitimate Pro Bowler, which so many on these boards refuses to do.

Just something to give some thought to.

Playing here is the closest thing to heaven. Really, I mean it's amazing to be in a place where the fans truly cherish their football team and stick behind them win or lose. We players love them, too. I feel a sense of accomplishment playing here, we are a special breed of football players with a great opportunity." ~ tOSU LB Brian Rolle