Perhaps... but I was referring specifically to abhidhammikas, and I'm yet to encounter an abhidhammika who sees them as pointing to fabricated designations.

If they did so, it would kind of defeat the entire purpose of the abhidhammic classification schemes in the sense that they're all sankharas no matter what conceptual overlay the abhidhammika applies, as per Ven. Kumara's comments here - viewtopic.php?f=16&t=2169&start=260#p260871

I agree you could regard the Abhidhamma Pitaka otherwise but abhidhammikas don't.

Metta,Retro.

If you have asked me of the origination of unease, then I shall explain it to you in accordance with my understanding: Whatever various forms of unease there are in the world, They originate founded in encumbering accumulation. (Pārāyanavagga)

Exalted in mind, just open and clearly aware, the recluse trained in the ways of the sages:One who is such, calmed and ever mindful, He has no sorrows! -- Udana IV, 7

clw_uk wrote:If its a matter of perspectives, then alcohol is sukha to an alcoholic?

Briefly sukha, then dukkha.

sukha-saññā, -citta, -diṭṭhi: 'the perception (consciousness or view) of happiness' in what is actually suffering (dukkhe sukha-saññā), i.e. any form of existence, it is one of the perversions (vipallāsa, q.v.).From Nayanatiloka"s dictionarychownah

retrofuturist wrote:Perhaps... but I was referring specifically to abhidhammikas, and I'm yet to encounter an abhidhammika who sees them as pointing to fabricated designations.

If they did so, it would kind of defeat the entire purpose of the abhidhammic classification schemes in the sense that they're all sankharas no matter what conceptual overlay the abhidhammika applies, as per Ven. Kumara's comments here - http://www.dhammawheel.com/viewtopic.ph ... 60#p260871

I agree you could regard the Abhidhamma Pitaka otherwise but abhidhammikas don't.

I think many do, actually. Read Nyanaponika's book on Abhidhamma, for instance. But this has been pointed out repeatedly on this forum, so I don't expect to change anyone's mind, I merely raise my objection to superficial dismissals for the record. See Tiltbilling's quotes here: http://www.dhammawheel.com/viewtopic.ph ... 1&start=20

retrofuturist wrote:Perhaps... but I was referring specifically to abhidhammikas, and I'm yet to encounter an abhidhammika who sees them as pointing to fabricated designations.

If they did so, it would kind of defeat the entire purpose of the abhidhammic classification schemes in the sense that they're all sankharas no matter what conceptual overlay the abhidhammika applies, as per Ven. Kumara's comments here - http://www.dhammawheel.com/viewtopic.ph ... 60#p260871

I agree you could regard the Abhidhamma Pitaka otherwise but abhidhammikas don't.

I think most have a much more sophisticated interpretation than you give them credit for. Read Nyanaponika's book on Abhidhamma, for instance. But this has been pointed out repeatedly on this forum, so I don't expect to change anyone's mind. I merely raise my objection to superficial dismissals for the record. See Tiltbilling's quotes here: http://www.dhammawheel.com/viewtopic.ph ... 1&start=20

Murder appears as abhorrent to me, yet good to others. I cannot tell if murder is good or bad, just how it appears to me.

I'm inclined to perceive the matter from the point of view of cetana.

Abstracted codes and hypothetical scenarios have little bearing when the ongoing focus is on the quality of mind and the nature of intention in the present moment.

(Once again, sorry if that's boring, but a philosophy without possible application is boring to me, and when it comes to application, there is no application greater than the Dhamma. As you quoted elsewhere, ""They do not speculate nor pursue (any notion); doctrines are not accepted by them. A (true) brahmana is beyond, does not fall back on views.")

Metta,Retro.

If you have asked me of the origination of unease, then I shall explain it to you in accordance with my understanding: Whatever various forms of unease there are in the world, They originate founded in encumbering accumulation. (Pārāyanavagga)

Exalted in mind, just open and clearly aware, the recluse trained in the ways of the sages:One who is such, calmed and ever mindful, He has no sorrows! -- Udana IV, 7

I think the Dhamma is interesting in the sense that it's a system of "natural" ethics.

Wholesome and unwholesome actions demonstrably yield their corresponding kammic fruit, and the Dhamma (in the sense of the teachings) is a systematised representation of how the "natural ethics" of the Dhamma (in the sense of how things are) manifest in practice. So, there is benefit in awareness and knowledge of this "natural ethical" system, but it is in no way divorced from its actual application and result.

Metta,Retro.

If you have asked me of the origination of unease, then I shall explain it to you in accordance with my understanding: Whatever various forms of unease there are in the world, They originate founded in encumbering accumulation. (Pārāyanavagga)

Exalted in mind, just open and clearly aware, the recluse trained in the ways of the sages:One who is such, calmed and ever mindful, He has no sorrows! -- Udana IV, 7

Wholesome and unwholesome actions demonstrably yield their corresponding kammic fruit, and the Dhamma (in the sense of the teachings) is a systematised representation of how the "natural ethics" of the Dhamma (in the sense of how things are) manifest in practice. So, there is benefit in awareness and knowledge of this "natural ethical" system, but it is in no way divorced from its actual application and result.

But isn't that all subjective? Theft might result in negative experience (kamma) for you, sure. However that doesn't mean it does for everyone. The same object can be different from different angles.

Concerning Buddhas "natural ethics" how do you view incest, in terms of Dhamma?

"And do you think that unto such as you, A maggot-minded, starved, fanatic crew, God gave a secret and denied it me! Well, well—what matters it? Believe that, too!

clw_uk wrote:But isn't that all subjective? Theft might result in negative experience (kamma) for you, sure. However that doesn't mean it does for everyone. The same object can be different from different angles.

You're moving away from the "natural ethics" of cetana, right effort, citta etc. and over into abstractions (e.g. "theft")

clw_uk wrote:Concerning Buddhas "natural ethics" how do you view incest, in terms of Dhamma?

The same way as anything else.... cetana, right effort, citta etc. yields the commensurate experienced outcome. As I said above...

Wholesome and unwholesome actions demonstrably yield their corresponding kammic fruit, and the Dhamma (in the sense of the teachings) is a systematised representation of how the "natural ethics" of the Dhamma (in the sense of how things are) manifest in practice.

Metta,Retro.

If you have asked me of the origination of unease, then I shall explain it to you in accordance with my understanding: Whatever various forms of unease there are in the world, They originate founded in encumbering accumulation. (Pārāyanavagga)

Exalted in mind, just open and clearly aware, the recluse trained in the ways of the sages:One who is such, calmed and ever mindful, He has no sorrows! -- Udana IV, 7

beeblebrox wrote:I.e., "down" is never really down, so that is why we make sure to call it "down."

It's partly about how we name things, but with this example isn't it also about physical laws? Due to gravity stuff always falls to earth, regardless of how we label that direction. Though of course if one travels into space "up" and "down" do become arbitrary.

"I ride tandem with the random, Things don't run the way I planned them, In the humdrum."Peter Gabriel lyric

beeblebrox wrote:I.e., "down" is never really down, so that is why we make sure to call it "down."

It's partly about how we name things, but with this example isn't it also about physical laws? Due to gravity stuff always falls to earth, regardless of how we label that direction. Though of course if one travels into space "up" and "down" do become arbitrary.

Hi Spiny,

That part about the "down" was a bit tongue-in-cheek, but there are people who still get amused when they find out that Australia is upside-down (on a globe). They'd think about how people could still fall down there. That is because they still function from their own frame of reference, of what "up" and "down" is...

So, it's really a corrective measure for that kind of misperception... in the same way that the Buddha's Dhamma is a teaching on how we could free ourselves from the samsara.