From my reading I have seen sources claim that HD DVD players don't have a true 24Hz option. In other words, some conversion is being done to get the player to output at 24Hz. I'll look for some documentation or sources of this, but as of right now I can't find the threads discussing it.

From my reading I have seen sources claim that HD DVD players don't have a true 24Hz option. In other words, some conversion is being done to get the player to output at 24Hz. I'll look for some documentation or sources of this, but as of right now I can't find the threads discussing it.

Brandon

99% of both HD-DVD and BLU-RAY movie discs are encoded at 1080P/24. BLU-RAY has more storage capacity per layer and higher bit rate compared to HD-DVD. Your right there was an article or reference once that mentioned that HD-DVD and BLU-RAY uses different methods to read the native 1080P/24 encoding off of the optical disc. I thought it use to be on this link but it is no longer there now.http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Comparison_of_high_definition_optical_disc_formats

All BLU-RAY players every made has a 1080P/60 output option. All current in production and future BLU-RAY players has the 1080P/24 option. In December 2006 the first BLU-RAY players with 1080P/24 option started to appear. The HD-DVD format did not have the 1080P/24 option on players until end of September 2007.

Other than sloppiness or ignorance, is there a reason why this whole product family is STILL ignored?

Or is it some personal pick-and-choose list?
Seriously, these things have been confirmed by multiple sources including owners (like me), in several forums...

T2k,Keeping this list updated can take several hours of research. I just spent a few hours searching Panasonics website and the Internet looking for a professional review or an official Panasonic document that would explain how the 1080P/24 signal is handled. All the reviews online for every Panasonic flat panel I have read mentions that they only support 1080P/60 and no 1080P/24 input. I was not aware of the Panasonic professional series for the US market. The Panasonic brochure for the TH-103PF9UK, TH-65PF9UK, and TH-50PF9UK mention 1080P 24p and 24sf signal compatibility but does not mention how the signal is displayed on the screen.There have been too many 1080P/24 displays added to the list and then removed from the list months later once a professional review is released showing that a particular brand and model of display does not display 1080P/24 at multiplies of the original frame.The 103 inch Panasonic for $70,000 looks like a nice display but unless someone can provide me with a professional review link that shows me that this model or other models handles 1080P/24 at multiplies of the original frame I am not going to add them to the list. If Panasonic was smart they would do what Pioneer does and mention buzz words like 48HZ, 72HZ, 3:3 pulldown, right in the specs. So far Pioneer is the only company that clearly mentions the buzz words.

T2k,Keeping this list updated can take several hours of research. I just spent a few hours searching Panasonics website and the Internet looking for a professional review or an official Panasonic document that would explain how the 1080P/24 signal is handled. All the reviews online for every Panasonic flat panel I have read mentions that they only support 1080P/60 and no 1080P/24 input. I was not aware of the Panasonic professional series for the US market. The Panasonic brochure for the TH-103PF9UK, TH-65PF9UK, and TH-50PF9UK mention 1080P 24p and 24sf signal compatibility but does not mention how the signal is displayed on the screen.There have been too many 1080P/24 displays added to the list and then removed from the list months later once a professional review is released showing that a particular brand and model of display does not display 1080P/24 at multiplies of the original frame.The 103 inch Panasonic for $70,000 looks like a nice display but unless someone can provide me with a professional review link that shows me that this model or other models handles 1080P/24 at multiplies of the original frame I am not going to add them to the list. If Panasonic was smart they would do what Pioneer does and mention buzz words like 48HZ, 72HZ, 3:3 pulldown, right in the specs. So far Pioneer is the only company that clearly mentions the buzz words.

I have the pioneer 5080 and the samsung 5000 when i hit display on my pioneer remote it says 1080p then under that it says 36bits. Does anyone have any idea what that is about..The combo does seam to be playing in 24fpm as i can turn it on and off and there is a difference. But i have no idea what the 36bits is.. the samsung tech says its a color thing that the pioneer is picking up. I have no idea....the force is weak in this one.

T2k,Keeping this list updated can take several hours of research. I just spent a few hours searching Panasonics website and the Internet looking for a professional review or an official Panasonic document that would explain how the 1080P/24 signal is handled. All the reviews online for every Panasonic flat panel I have read mentions that they only support 1080P/60 and no 1080P/24 input. I was not aware of the Panasonic professional series for the US market. The Panasonic brochure for the TH-103PF9UK, TH-65PF9UK, and TH-50PF9UK mention 1080P 24p and 24sf signal compatibility but does not mention how the signal is displayed on the screen.There have been too many 1080P/24 displays added to the list and then removed from the list months later once a professional review is released showing that a particular brand and model of display does not display 1080P/24 at multiplies of the original frame.The 103 inch Panasonic for $70,000 looks like a nice display but unless someone can provide me with a professional review link that shows me that this model or other models handles 1080P/24 at multiplies of the original frame I am not going to add them to the list. If Panasonic was smart they would do what Pioneer does and mention buzz words like 48HZ, 72HZ, 3:3 pulldown, right in the specs. So far Pioneer is the only company that clearly mentions the buzz words.

So long story short: you don't believe us, the owners, you don't believe the Panasonic engineer I spoke to, you don't believe other confirmed reports (DVI 48Hz), you clearly don't even believe in the most logical and easiest way (when a panel is rated 48-120Hz AND it has 50Hz, 60Hz and 100Hz modes (e.g. for PAL) AND IS 24p-capable AND it switches itself to 50Hz or 100Hz mode when ingesting 24p signal AND the engineer said it will tune to the signal THEN YOU STILL THINK they (Pana engiineers) will ignore this path: the easiest and best and most logical way; that is simply to bump it up to 48/96Hz - instead it seems you think they will rather telecine it, convert back, down, up, left, right, ahead etc, only to make it way more difficult...

...but you believe anything for Pioneer.

Interesting.

FYI: we have a topic here and avforums.com also have long history with PF9 and PF10 family including confirmed 48Hz on older DVI module.
You seem to forget these professional displays cost $1k+ more than any commercial Panasonic despite lack of tuner, speakers & stand (optional) etc. It's not about buzzwords, you're comparing professional displays to commercial 'buzzing' (can't resist ) Pioneers.
If you tell me what test you need, I'll do it for you as well, of course.

PS: Pioneer's 72Hz is anything but the best solution - in fact my switchable 48/96 hertz is much better, IMO.

So long story short: you don't believe us, the owners, you don't believe the Panasonic engineer I spoke to, you don't believe other confirmed reports (DVI 48Hz), you clearly don't even believe in the most logical and easiest way (when a panel is rated 48-120Hz AND it has 50Hz, 60Hz and 100Hz modes (e.g. for PAL) AND IS 24p-capable AND it switches itself to 50Hz or 100Hz mode when ingesting 24p signal AND the engineer said it will tune to the signal THEN YOU STILL THINK they (Pana engiineers) will ignore this path: the easiest and best and most logical way; that is simply to bump it up to 48/96Hz - instead it seems you think they will rather telecine it, convert back, down, up, left, right, ahead etc, only to make it way more difficult...

...but you believe anything for Pioneer.

Interesting.

FYI: we have a topic here and avforums.com also have long history with PF9 and PF10 family including confirmed 48Hz on older DVI module.
You seem to forget these professional displays cost $1k+ more than any commercial Panasonic despite lack of tuner, speakers & stand (optional) etc. It's not about buzzwords, you're comparing professional displays to commercial 'buzzing' (can't resist ) Pioneers.
If you tell me what test you need, I'll do it for you as well, of course.

PS: Pioneer's 72Hz is anything but the best solution - in fact my switchable 48/96 hertz is much better, IMO.

I'm with T2K here. The PF10 range and HDMI board have been out for quite a few months now (I've had mine in the UK for over 2 months now). I, and many others, have posted here and on the UK equivelant that we believe the PF10 does support 24fps natively - we don't know exactly how, but I do know that there's no judder with a 24fps judder bar generated from my VP50Pro and that video from my EP35 (A35) is smooth as silk.

Samsung Plasma's still are displaying 1080P/24 on the screen at 60HZ using a 3:2 pulldown process and will not be added to the list

Samsung FP-T5884 Plasma TV info

QuoteUnfortunately, the set converts 1080p/24 to 60Hz for display by applying 3:2 pulldown, eliminating the benefit of having a 1080p/24 source. There aren't many plasmas (or other displays) that show 1080p/24 correctlythat is, at a multiple of 24Hz, which results in smoother motion from film-based content.

I have a 71 and it does a nice job with 24p. The AMP feature smooths it very nicely too.

On the 71 thread there is a lot of debate about whether they do 5:5

The 71 was reviewed by CNET and they said that the Samsung engineers said that it does do 5:5.

The 71 accept 24p inputs, but the problem is nobody seems to be able to tell the difference between 5:5 and the alternative where the TV telecines (3:2 pulldown), then deinterlaces, then doubles the 60hz framerate to 120. Maybe somebody with the right background can eyeball it and tell, I don't know. So far such a person has not stepped forward, and I have seen nothing about a way to find out with testing equipment.

Well, AMP doesn't count. But I do think with AMP disabled, the 71 outputs 5:5 from 24Hz. No conclusive proof yet, but...

I have a Samsung BD-UP5000 combo player. With HD-DVD, it doesn't consistently output 24Hz; sometimes I get 24Hz, sometimes 60Hz. Seems to be movie dependent.

What I've noticed is, I can always guess which output mode I'm seeing. I watch the film for a while, and after watching several steady pans I get a feel for whether I'm watching 24Hz or 3:2 60Hz. Pressing my TV's Info button has always confirmed my hypothesis.

Conclusive? Nope. But I've got a good feeling about it. I too would like to see a professional review let us know what the real truth of the matter is.

Also... why is this topic under Dual Format Players? Shouldn't it be under Displays?

Well, AMP doesn't count. But I do think with AMP disabled, the 71 outputs 5:5 from 24Hz. No conclusive proof yet, but...

I have a Samsung BD-UP5000 combo player. With HD-DVD, it doesn't consistently output 24Hz; sometimes I get 24Hz, sometimes 60Hz. Seems to be movie dependent.

What I've noticed is, I can always guess which output mode I'm seeing. I watch the film for a while, and after watching several steady pans I get a feel for whether I'm watching 24Hz or 3:2 60Hz. Pressing my TV's Info button has always confirmed my hypothesis.

Conclusive? Nope. But I've got a good feeling about it. I too would like to see a professional review let us know what the real truth of the matter is.

Also... why is this topic under Dual Format Players? Shouldn't it be under Displays?

Your tv info button only tells you what the input is. It doesnt tell you whether your tv is doing 5:5 or the alternative: telecining.

Your tv info button only tells you what the input is. It doesnt tell you whether your tv is doing 5:5 or the alternative: telecining.

I understand that.

What I'm saying is, as I watch, I guess whether I'm seeing unmolested or telecined video before pressing the Info button. If I noticed the motion felt even and judder-free, pressing the Info button then revealed that the source was 24Hz. If I noticed some judder in the pans, sure enough the signal was 60Hz.

I have a Samsung 5265. I know 120 Hz sets can play Blu-Ray with no judder. However, I'm wondering if they can also get rid of judder on broadcast television? For example, I can see judder during the credits when watching a movie in 1080i on HBO. Will a 120 Hz set with 5:5 be able to reverse the judder effect caused by the 60 Hz broadcast?

I don't watch many DVDs or Blu-Rays and figure if the newer sets can't get rid of broadcast judder then there is no reason for me to upgrade (the set is great otherwise). However, if they can, well then that is a different story. Thanks for your expertise.

I have a Samsung 5265. I know 120 Hz sets can play Blu-Ray with no judder. However, I'm wondering if they can also get rid of judder on broadcast television? For example, I can see judder during the credits when watching a movie in 1080i on HBO. Will a 120 Hz set with 5:5 be able to reverse the judder effect caused by the 60 Hz broadcast?

I don't watch many DVDs or Blu-Rays and figure if the newer sets can't get rid of broadcast judder then there is no reason for me to upgrade (the set is great otherwise). However, if they can, well then that is a different story. Thanks for your expertise.

Sorry if this is the wrong thread for this.

Some 120HZ displays will first convert 24fps to 60fps and then go to 120fps. Other 120HZ displays offer true 5:5 pulldown when a 1080P/24 signal is applied. Some displays like Pioneer and others will detect 3:2 (NTSC) or 2:2 (PAL) cadence and will perform a reverse pulldown from 480I DVD’s and 60HZ/50HZ broadcasts.
So yes there are a select few displays and external processors that will convert all film based material to 1080P/24. The quality of the up conversion will not be as good as native 1080P/24.

Some 120HZ displays will first convert 24fps to 60fps and then go to 120fps. Other 120HZ displays offer true 5:5 pulldown when a 1080P/24 signal is applied. Some displays like Pioneer and others will detect 3:2 (NTSC) or 2:2 (PAL) cadence and will perform a reverse pulldown from 480I DVD's and 60HZ/50HZ broadcasts.
So yes there are a select few displays and external processors that will convert all film based material to 1080P/24. The quality of the up conversion will not be as good as native 1080P/24.

So if I watch a 1080i broadcast movie on a 5271 with 5:5 it will not have the judder I notice on things like rolling credits while watching my 5265?

So if I watch a 1080i broadcast movie on a 5271 with 5:5 it will not have the judder I notice on things like rolling credits while watching my 5265?

Thanks for your input.

Not all displays have the same features. I still have not seen any documented evidence that the Samsung 120HZ models do a true 5:5 pulldown and bypass the 3:2 pulldown. Mitsubishi 120HZ displays use a 3:2 pulldown to get to 60HZ first and then frame double to 120HZ. I just looked thru the instruction manual for the Samsung LN-T5271F and I could not find any information on 3:2 or 2:2 cadence detection. I know the Pioneer flat panels have 3:2 cadence detection and will upconvert a 480I or 1080I film based program to 1080P at 72HZ.http://downloadcenter.samsung.com/co...00L03-0724.pdf

Not all displays have the same features. I still have not seen any documented evidence that the Samsung 120HZ models do a true 5:5 pulldown and bypass the 3:2 pulldown. Mitsubishi 120HZ displays use a 3:2 pulldown to get to 60HZ first and then frame double to 120HZ. I just looked thru the instruction manual for the Samsung LN-T5271F and I could not find any information on 3:2 or 2:2 cadence detection. I know the Pioneer flat panels have 3:2 cadence detection and will upconvert a 480I or 1080I film based program to 1080P at 72HZ.http://downloadcenter.samsung.com/co...00L03-0724.pdf

So all the televisions listed in this thread are able to display at 24FPS (or a multiple of) with a Blu-Ray player. However, only some can detect 1080i on broadcast television and convert the 60HZ feed into a true 24 FPS (or multiple of) smooth picture. Is this correct?

And currently we only know that the Pioneers do this? Do any LCD's have these processors?

The answer to yor question is no. My listed Optoma HD81-LV has a 48 Hz position that has to be selected if one wishes to watch 24 fps program material from a player the is 24 fps compatible. It does not provide a picture at 24 fps with any HD DVD or BluRay players currently being manufactured because player manufacturers dropped the forced 24 fps option from the firmware. So many display devices, although capable, will not reproduce film at 24 fps. I believe that displays like this one that have this issue should be removed from the list. Once they are removed, the list will acurately describe displays that play at 24 fps when required. As it is just because they are "capable" does not mean they will.

The answer to yor question is no. My listed Optoma HD81-LV has a 48 Hz position that has to be selected if one wishes to watch 24 fps program material from a player the is 24 fps compatible. It does not provide a picture at 24 fps with any HD DVD or BluRay players currently being manufactured because player manufacturers dropped the forced 24 fps option from the firmware. So many display devices, although capable, will not reproduce film at 24 fps. I believe that displays like this one that have this issue should be removed from the list. Once they are removed, the list will acurately describe displays that play at 24 fps when required. As it is just because they are "capable" does not mean they will.

So you are saying that the HD81 needs to be manually switched to 48HZ mode since the projector will not automatically detect a1080P/24 signal? Also there is no projector or display that will display 24fps at 24fps. Viewing 24fps on the screen is unwatchable since the screen would constantly flicker at that low frame rate. A 35mm or 70mm film projector in the theater will flash (refresh) the 1080P/24 image on the screen at 48HZ or 72HZ, or other multiplies in order to eliminate the flicker. If you are watching BLU-RAY or HD-DVD movies at 48HZ on the HD81-LV then it is working as designed. (you may need to manually switch the projector)

So you are saying that the HD81 needs to be manually switched to 48HZ mode since the projector will not automatically detect a1080P/24 signal?>

That is correct. If you have a source like a PS3 that "forces" 24 fps, one must manually select 48Hz in the menu. At that point, and only then will the Optoma HD81-LV operate at 48HZ. It does not automatically select 48Hz. I have been saying this for some time to you. In addition and most importantly, no HD player subsequent to the PS3 will "force" the 48Hz mode even after it is selected in the 81. I have personally tried an Toshiba XA2, and A35, a Sony BD300, and a Panasonic BD 30 without sucess. That is why I keep pleading manufacturers to implement a "forced 24 fps" mode.

<"Also there is no projector or display that will display 24fps at 24fps." Viewing 24fps on the screen is unwatchable since the screen would constantly flicker at that low frame rate. A 35mm or 70mm film projector in the theater will flash (refresh) the 1080P/24 image on the screen at 48HZ or 72HZ, or other multiplies in order to eliminate the flicker. If you are watching BLU-RAY or HD-DVD movies at 48HZ on the HD81-LV then it is working as designed. (you may need to manually switch the projector)>

Do you take me for an idiot? I understand how this stuff works. Why do you feel it necessary to tell me to turn on 48Hz mode? Do you really believe that if it were working properly and I had explored all other avenues, I would be making a fuss here? Assume readers understand the principles behind the issues they raise. I have asked you for months to not include the 81 and 81-LV in the list of projectors that will run at 24 fps or multiples thereof because it will not regardless of what switches one selects or what player one chooses.

Please petition that a "forced 24 fps" option be includedd in every player as a stndard option and that manufacturers issue updated firmware to add such an option to players on the market today.

Excellent! I was just going to post here about the excellent experience I had this weekend with The Last Samurai HD-DVD at 24Hz -- long slow pans were beautifully even. Guess I don't need to argue my point anymore.

Excellent! I was just going to post here about the excellent experience I had this weekend with The Last Samurai HD-DVD at 24Hz -- long slow pans were beautifully even. Guess I don't need to argue my point anymore.

It would be excellent if one didn't have to list their firmware alongside the tv. What a mess!

What is more impressive to me is that it can "fix" a poor 3:2 1080i broadcast at 60fps and make it look proper at 120 fps. Most of my use is watching television anyway.

The answer to yor question is no. My listed Optoma HD81-LV has a 48 Hz position that has to be selected if one wishes to watch 24 fps program material from a player the is 24 fps compatible. It does not provide a picture at 24 fps with any HD DVD or BluRay players currently being manufactured because player manufacturers dropped the forced 24 fps option from the firmware. So many display devices, although capable, will not reproduce film at 24 fps. I believe that displays like this one that have this issue should be removed from the list. Once they are removed, the list will acurately describe displays that play at 24 fps when required. As it is just because they are "capable" does not mean they will.

PS3 settings

Set to automatically switch the video output mode to match the TV that is connected.Automatic

Set to output at the maximum resolution that has been selected in the video output settings of the PS3™ system. (The video output will not be displayed at 1080p 24 Hz.) Off

Set to output BD video that was recorded at 1080p 24 Hz directly at a resolution of 1080p 24 Hz.On

These are the settings in the PS3. Are you saying that the automatic settings in the PS3 does not work with the HD81 and you need to set the PS3 to the “on” mode to get your HD81 to accept 1080P/24 and display it at 48HZ? When you connected the Panasonic DMP-BD30 to the HD81 did you try changing the “HDMI resolution setting” from auto to 1080P and then turn on the “BD-Video 24p output” option?So the PS3 is the only player you have been able to get to work with the HD81-lv? There does not seem to be standard labeling in the industry for this feature. On the PS3 the “on” mode will always output 1080P/24 for a BLU-RAY movie without using auto HDMI detection. It appears that most or all brands of standalone BLU-RAY players use auto detection when the “on” mode is selected where as the PS3’s “on” mode bypasses auto detection.Perhaps one day a firmware update will be made available for your HD81 to correct this issue or you will only be able to use the PS3 machine as a BLU-RAY player. It does not appear that the HD-DVD and BLU-RAY standalone players are going to add any firmware updates so that the 1080P/24 output offers the exact same 3 options as the PS3 machine does.

Will these two look pretty much identical if the set has the ability to detect 3:2 pulldown and reverse to a multiple of 24FPS? Theoretically if done correctly they should, no?

It would be better to set the BLU-RAY player to 1080P/24 and no conversion will need to be made. If you set the BLU-RAY player to 1080P/60 your BLU-RAY player would perform a 3:2 pulldown and then your display if working correctly would do a reverse 3:2 pulldown. If done 100% correctly yes they should look the same as native 1080P/24. There is always the possibility of conversion errors and to be save native 1080P/24 would be better.It would be neat to see someone compare native 1080P/24 to reverse 3:2 pulldown. Maybe I will try it sometime.

Set to automatically switch the video output mode to match the TV that is connected.Automatic

Set to output at the maximum resolution that has been selected in the video output settings of the PS3 system. (The video output will not be displayed at 1080p 24 Hz.) Off

Set to output BD video that was recorded at 1080p 24 Hz directly at a resolution of 1080p 24 Hz.On

These are the settings in the PS3. Are you saying that the automatic settings in the PS3 does not work with the HD81 and you need to set the PS3 to the on mode to get your HD81 to accept 1080P/24 and display it at 48HZ? When you connected the Panasonic DMP-BD30 to the HD81 did you try changing the HDMI resolution setting from auto to 1080P and then turn on the BD-Video 24p output option?So the PS3 is the only player you have been able to get to work with the HD81-lv? There does not seem to be standard labeling in the industry for this feature. On the PS3 the on mode will always output 1080P/24 for a BLU-RAY movie without using auto HDMI detection. It appears that most or all brands of standalone BLU-RAY players use auto detection when the on mode is selected where as the PS3's on mode bypasses auto detection.Perhaps one day a firmware update will be made available for your HD81 to correct this issue or you will only be able to use the PS3 machine as a BLU-RAY player. It does not appear that the HD-DVD and BLU-RAY standalone players are going to add any firmware updates so that the 1080P/24 output offers the exact same 3 options as the PS3 machine does.

I spent a half hour talking with Optoma customer relations last night about this issue. They have tested many players with the HD81-LV to find out whether they will operate din 24 fps mode. The only machines that will are the SONY PS3 and 300. Every other player they have tested, will not. They have no plans to update the firmware. I believe you should note that in your list.

I spent a half hour talking with Optoma customer relations last night about this issue. They have tested many players with the HD81-LV to find out whether they will operate din 24 fps mode. The only machines that will are the SONY PS3 and 300. Every other player they have tested, will not. They have no plans to update the firmware. I believe you should note that in your list.

There are actually FIVE of the 2007-vintage Samsung 120Hz LCDs which share identical electronics, what is called the "Peony" electronics design. These are:

Samsung LN-T4071F
Samsung LN-T4671F
Samsung LN-T5271F

...which you added to the list in message #96. The missing sets are:

Samsung LN-T4069F
Samsung LN-T4669F

The xx69F models differ from the xx71F models in two respects:

1) The LCD panel finish is matte for the xx69F and shiny for the xx71F's. This is exactly the same relationship as with the xx61F and xx65F 60Hz models.

2) The xx71F models have the speakers located on the sides and the sound exits through the slots between the plastic bezel and the dark plastic strips on the sides. The xx69F models have the speakers relocated to the bottom corners and the sound exits through the slot between the bottom bezel and the single darkened chrome strip across the bottom. Thus the xx71F models are slightly shorter and wider than the xx69F models.

==> There is no 2007 52" model with a matte finish panel.

All the models with "Peony" electronics design share the same FRC (Frame Rate Conversion) board which is where both the 3:2 reverse telecine and the 24Hz to 120Hz frame rate conversion via 5:5 pulldown occurs. The processor used is the well-regarded Micronas FRC 9wxyM chipset: