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Re: Talk to the Team: Default Key-bindings

After reviewing all of the responses, I have a few points I'd like to clarify:

1. The proposed left-click camera movement is a hold-function, not a toggle. Targeting, window interaction, and any other operations normally associated with left-clicking would remain unchanged. This mouse-bound camera movement is intended to simplify the current setup, which involves pressing 6 keys (tilt up and down, rotate left and right, zoom in and out) just to have a look at your character. At most, your camera might be rotated unintentionally if you drag your clicks on the UI, but this is easily remedied by pressing the "recenter camera" key or manually repositioning the camera.

2. Your keybindings are preserved client-side and wouldn't be wiped with a roll-out of new defaults. Only new characters or anyone intentionally returning to defaults would experience any change.

3. An option to change the defaults (and all keybindings) to Istaria's original setup could be implemented for those of you who prefer the current default bindings. This would likely appear as something along the lines of a "Default to Legacy" box under the Keybindings tab in the Options menu.

Many have mentioned the seemingly unrelated bindings to windows in the OP's proposal table. Truthfully, there are slightly more windows to be bound than average, and additionally, a couple placements were shifted to accommodate other keys, specifically the Equipment and Formula windows, which were moved for "Step Right" and "Assist Target," respectively.

The best alternative, as I viewed it, was to place Equipment on "B," which is commonly associated with "bags" or other inventory. As a result, Spells needed relocating; again, the best alternative seemed to be "J," which might normally be considered "journal." The Formula window still needed an allocation at this point, so the logical placement seemed to be "H." With this setup, the Formula (H), Spell (J), and Knowledge (K) windows are bound on a row of keys, all of which are also tied to the Knowledge window. The Chat window needed replacement at this point, so "N" was cited on the table.

In retrospect, binding "Assist Target" at the expense of dislocating Formulas and Chat in the process may be excessive and unnecessary.

Originally Posted by awdz

Given that some keyboards no longer even have that button, it would probably be a good idea to change that default.

I must say, I've never seen nor heard of a keyboard that lacked a Numlock key, but in any case, many laptops are admittedly a pain to register Numlock; it usually involves prefacing the key with "Function," and is a step too many. I welcome any alternative suggestions that remain consistent with established standards.

Originally Posted by Raptress

I don't like slash for attack. You have to move your hand all the way across the keyboard and off WASD in order to hit that. Not something I'd want to be doing in the heat of battle. I think what I'm used to for this is T, but Istaria uses that for trading. Perhaps swap slash for gathering's Y?

What is the new Stop Action? It was the previous user of spacebar, no?

I am hopeful but concerned about the new functions for right- and left-click. I have tried to attach right-click to mouse look in the past, and it suddenly became impossible to get right-click menus. Left-click was not allowed to be rebound at all when I tried. Are we to understand that there is new functionality being put into these bindings, rather than simply a swapping of binds here? That's what it sounds like, but it is a little unclear.

This post was especially helpful. Attack is typically "T," but again, this is the binding for Trade. Perhaps the better solution is to eliminate a binding for Trade altogether. The Actions window provides a quick usage of Trade already, not to mention that the Attack binding would be more frequently utilized than a Trade binding.

The "Stop Action" binding is also up for debate; several MMO's combine ceasing action with movement, particularly jumping. One possibility is creating a mutual, dual binding between jumping and Stop Action on Spacebar-- another is to retain separation and bind Stop Action to "Z," or something similar. Keep in mind that a "Default to Legacy" option will quite possibly accompany the changed defaults.

The proposal of default reassignment is still very much subject to change and review, and your feedback, especially including specific modifications, is appreciated. These changes are intended to provide as much intuitiveness and comfort as possible for newcomers to Istaria, particularly in regards to industry key-binding standards.

Re: Talk to the Team: Default Key-bindings

I'd be very happy to have a Default to Legacy option for when a new character is made. I wish I could add to the discussion of what keys would do better where, but as I've said before, I only really know Istarias keybindings. I'm pretty much a newbie to mmos as well.

Re: Talk to the Team: Default Key-bindings

Originally Posted by Vehon

This post was especially helpful. Attack is typically "T," but again, this is the binding for Trade. Perhaps the better solution is to eliminate a binding for Trade altogether. The Actions window provides a quick usage of Trade already, not to mention that the Attack binding would be more frequently utilized than a Trade binding.

Please do not remove this binding completely. I use this ALL the time. It can be a royal pain in the tail to right-click on small characters, and having to mouse into the action window is annoying, especially for multiple trades in a row. While I have the window open, I pretty much never use it other than to recall.

Originally Posted by Vehon

The "Stop Action" binding is also up for debate; several MMO's combine ceasing action with movement, particularly jumping. One possibility is creating a mutual, dual binding between jumping and Stop Action on Spacebar-- another is to retain separation and bind Stop Action to "Z," or something similar. Keep in mind that a "Default to Legacy" option will quite possibly accompany the changed defaults.

Again, this is a case of please don't remove things. Add, but don't subtract. This is the only MMO I've ever played, so this is what I know. I didn't realize WoW was the "industry standard". If there is a desire for a dual function button, then add that. But don't take away the individual functions.

Re: Talk to the Team: Default Key-bindings

Don't worry, walker, your very concerns have already been brought up internally by more than one of us and we've been assured by the Tech Team that this will not impact existing configurations for players. We're also discussing options for how players might choose to use the new scheme.

Re: Talk to the Team: Default Key-bindings

Originally Posted by Vehon

Many have mentioned the seemingly unrelated bindings to windows in the OP's proposal table. Truthfully, there are slightly more windows to be bound than average, and additionally, a couple placements were shifted to accommodate other keys, specifically the Equipment and Formula windows, which were moved for "Step Right" and "Assist Target," respectively.

...

In retrospect, binding "Assist Target" at the expense of dislocating Formulas and Chat in the process may be excessive and unnecessary.

Ohhh, duh. For some reason, it didn't even click that all those windows were displaced by the movement of the strafe keys. Hmmm, that does present a conundrum. Movement keys take precedence over window binds to me though. I hadn't noticed that the new knowledge-related binds were in a row; that's not bad. If they're all kept next to each other, that may work even if the letters on the keys are a bit off from what the window title is.

I think I would rather have assist target on F and formulas on H to keep formulas in the knowledge-book row, rather than putting formulas back on F and seperating it from the other knowledge-book keys.

Originally Posted by Vehon

I must say, I've never seen nor heard of a keyboard that lacked a Numlock key, but in any case, many laptops are admittedly a pain to register Numlock; it usually involves prefacing the key with "Function," and is a step too many. I welcome any alternative suggestions that remain consistent with established standards..

I use middle mouse for autorun in other games where left-click pans the camera. Maybe tilde though, if there is a desire to have this function bound to the keyboard.

Originally Posted by Vehon

Attack is typically "T," but again, this is the binding for Trade. Perhaps the better solution is to eliminate a binding for Trade altogether. The Actions window provides a quick usage of Trade already, not to mention that the Attack binding would be more frequently utilized than a Trade binding.

I use the keybinding for trade almost exclusively. If I can avoid having to click, then I'll generally do it. It would be odd, also, to have one window that you can't access without clicking (or rebinding). I'd rather see trade on a nonsensical key than eliminated altogether.

I still think attack could work on Y (with gather on slash), but I suppose you could also put attack on T and trade on slash.

Originally Posted by Vehon

The "Stop Action" binding is also up for debate; several MMO's combine ceasing action with movement, particularly jumping. One possibility is creating a mutual, dual binding between jumping and Stop Action on Spacebar-- another is to retain separation and bind Stop Action to "Z," or something similar. Keep in mind that a "Default to Legacy" option will quite possibly accompany the changed defaults.

Z sounds alright. I feel like a dual binding with spacebar could be awkward for flying dragons, whose "jump" animation renders them immobile; I think bipeds and hatchlings can still move as they jump.

Another thing I did not notice last time I looked at the OP: is rebinding the run modifier to insert really necessary? Insert is used for camera control along with all those other keys, like home and delete, in that block above the arrow keys. As previously stated, some keyboards lack numpads and may rely on this key block for camera functions.

Equals has not been rebound to anything else, so is there a reason why run modifier cannot remain on equals?

Re: Talk to the Team: Default Key-bindings

As far as "Attack", is there any way to make offensive hotkeys set Auto-Attack mode like most other MMORPGs do?

You walk up to a mob and hit _any_ melee offensive hotkey and it automatically starts Auto-Attack and activates the ability ASAP.

Is there a way to enable this behavior by default instead of having to edit each and every offensive hotkey to do this?

It would also be nice if, when you switch targets, hitting an offensive keybind re-starts Auto-Attack on your current target... dunno how many times I ran up to, say, a red golem and a blue golem. I start attacking blue golem and then heal myself and accidentally get the blue golem targeted again so I unload abilities on it and for some odd reason, it is taking the blue golem FOREVER to die. Then I realize... oops... I'm still Auto-attacking the red golem!

Re: Talk to the Team: Default Key-bindings

Originally Posted by Dhalin

As far as "Attack", is there any way to make offensive hotkeys set Auto-Attack mode like most other MMORPGs do?

(didn't feel the need to quote you entirely)

Unless this were an option (default or otherwise) I'm personally against this, as most of the time I'll start attacking a mob, but use abilities and such on another, meaning I would then have to switch back to first to start auto-attacking it again.

As for all the suggested keybinding changes, I say, go NUTS! Anything to ease peeps into it all has gotta be a good thing. Chances are I'll stick to what ever mess of keybindings I currently have, but I'll definitely give them a go and if they are more fluid than my mess, I'll be sure to stick with em.

Happy hunting, see yas in Istaria.

--- iuvenilis --- [Officer of The Alliance]
Demonslaying since July 2004

Re: Talk to the Team: Default Key-bindings

Originally Posted by hallucin8

(didn't feel the need to quote you entirely)

Unless this were an option (default or otherwise) I'm personally against this, as most of the time I'll start attacking a mob, but use abilities and such on another, meaning I would then have to switch back to first to start auto-attacking it again.

An option would be fine, in fact probably the best solution.

I just find it annoying to have to edit each hotkey individually to do something any other MMORPG has as a standard global feature without having to make macros or edit hotkeys.

Re: Talk to the Team: Default Key-bindings

Please do not remove this binding completely. I use this ALL the time.

I think you may have misunderstood me; my suggestion was to leave Trade unassigned in the new, proposed set of defaults. I apologize if my wording didn't reflect this very well.

The better route, however, may be to bind Attack to "T," Trade to "Y," and Gather to "U." Let me know if this sounds better.

Originally Posted by walkerglassmire

Again, this is a case of please don't remove things. Add, but don't subtract. This is the only MMO I've ever played, so this is what I know. I didn't realize WoW was the "industry standard". If there is a desire for a dual function button, then add that. But don't take away the individual functions.

Please see my following quote:

Originally Posted by Vehon

After reviewing all of the responses, I have a few points I'd like to clarify...

2. Your keybindings are preserved client-side and wouldn't be wiped with a roll-out of new defaults. Only new characters or anyone intentionally returning to defaults would experience any change.

3. An option to change the defaults (and all keybindings) to Istaria's original setup could be implemented for those of you who prefer the current default bindings. This would likely appear as something along the lines of a "Default to Legacy" box under the Keybindings tab in the Options menu.

The third point is both viable and a strong possibility with the introduction of new default bindings. Once again, these proposed changes are solely intended to aid newcomers from other MMO's to Istaria. However, as the next response entails, an alternative binding will more likely be made.

Originally Posted by Raptress

Z sounds alright. I feel like a dual binding with spacebar could be awkward for flying dragons, whose "jump" animation renders them immobile; I think bipeds and hatchlings can still move as they jump.

Good point. "Z" will likely be the chosen binding for Stop Action, rather than creating the mutual binding.

Originally Posted by Raptress

Insert is used for camera control along with all those other keys, like home and delete, in that block above the arrow keys. As previously stated, some keyboards lack numpads and may rely on this key block for camera functions.

As mentioned in the OP, camera functions will ideally be bound entirely to mouse clicks on the UI. All of the keys associated with camera movement will be freed for binding, assuming the mouse functions are ultimately implemented.

Originally Posted by Peaches

I have a gaming logitch g15 keyboard. How will your set up impact my setup?

The introduction of new default bindings won't affect your current ClientPrefs_Controls file under each character's preferences.

Re: Talk to the Team: Default Key-bindings

Right-clicking would serve a dual purpose as both the pop-up window modifier and the "Mouse Look" hold

Left-clicking would be redesigned to perform "Free Look Around Character" when interacting with the UI, while retaining its original functions

1). What is the difference between "Mouse Look" and "Free Look Around Character"? They both turn the camera, right?

2). What do you mean by "when interacting with the UI"? You mean, to get the camera to turn with the left mouse button, I have to click a UI element first and I can't just click anywhere in the game world, or do you mean the opposite -- clicking on a UI element won't cause the camera to move?

Re: Talk to the Team: Default Key-bindings

Originally Posted by Vehon

The better route, however, may be to bind Attack to "T," Trade to "Y," and Gather to "U." Let me know if this sounds better.

That sounded good until I realized that U is currently used for guild. I don't know what sounds like a good key to move that to. Maybe left bracket ( [ ) to keep it near the "social" group and player lists windows?

Originally Posted by Vehon

As mentioned in the OP, camera functions will ideally be bound entirely to mouse clicks on the UI. All of the keys associated with camera movement will be freed for binding, assuming the mouse functions are ultimately implemented.

Ahh, yes, that's true. In that case, I guess insert for run modifier is fine.

Re: Talk to the Team: Default Key-bindings

I think you may have misunderstood me; my suggestion was to leave Trade unassigned in the new, proposed set of defaults. I apologize if my wording didn't reflect this very well.

The better route, however, may be to bind Attack to "T," Trade to "Y," and Gather to "U." Let me know if this sounds better.

I thank you very much for your response (and Amon's earlier). Quite frankly, this entire process sounds like a very bad thing to me, and a disturbing trend to the game in general. I will not expand as it would be very off topic, and does not help the discussion at hand.

Suffice to say, so long as absolutely nothing changes the way I currently use the interface, I will be happy. I've been here a very long time now, and am a generally grumpy ancient. :)

Re: Talk to the Team: Default Key-bindings

Originally Posted by Freelancer

Does nobody else think that having the default Autorun button as "numlock" is a problem? I would love to see that changed.

This is actually a standard set up for me in most MMOs and any other game with the feature.
It's way too easy to hit otherwise and has on more than one occasion had me running straight into the enemy when we were still in 'set up' phase, so off to numlock it goes where I literally have to stop what I'm doing for 2 seconds in preparation for auto running halfway across the map. I find it a fine trade off.

Granted, if the options allow it, I set it to "mouse 5" where my index finger is (or the thumb button for an older mouse) but there are some games that don't recognize mice with that many buttons.

Re: Talk to the Team: Default Key-bindings

Originally Posted by Dhalin

1). What is the difference between "Mouse Look" and "Free Look Around Character"? They both turn the camera, right?

2). What do you mean by "when interacting with the UI"? You mean, to get the camera to turn with the left mouse button, I have to click a UI element first and I can't just click anywhere in the game world, or do you mean the opposite -- clicking on a UI element won't cause the camera to move?

I'm not entirely sure what exactly you're referring to here.

1. "Mouse Look" and "Free Look Around Character" are very similar. Mouse Look redirects your camera view as well as your character, allowing you to "mouse turn." Some players prefer this method because it eliminates the usage of "A" and "D" to turn left and right, which frees those keys for binding and/ or makes turning much faster.
Free Look Around Character allows camera rotation too, but it doesn't redirect your character. It's more or less for easily viewing your character when standing or the surrounding area while running in one direction.

2. The latter description is the case; clicking anywhere within windows or other interfaces wouldn't affect the camera, but dragging your clicks anywhere on the world would.

It seems I mistakenly phrased it to imply the camera was tied to the interface, which is not the case. I'm sorry about the confusion.

Originally Posted by Raptress

That sounded good until I realized that U is currently used for guild. I don't know what sounds like a good key to move that to. Maybe left bracket ( [ ) to keep it near the "social" group and player lists windows?

Personally, this alternative sounds best. If anyone has any further input on this dilemma (placement of Greet vs. Guild), it would be appreciated.

Originally Posted by walkerglassmire

Suffice to say, so long as absolutely nothing changes the way I currently use the interface, I will be happy. I've been here a very long time now, and am a generally grumpy ancient. :)

Of course, we understand completely how important it is to long-term players that the preferences they've developed remain undisturbed with any updates. You will be able to disregard the option of new default bindings altogether if you prefer.

Re: Talk to the Team: Default Key-bindings

Originally Posted by Shian

This is actually a standard set up for me in most MMOs and any other game with the feature.
It's way too easy to hit otherwise and has on more than one occasion had me running straight into the enemy when we were still in 'set up' phase, so off to numlock it goes where I literally have to stop what I'm doing for 2 seconds in preparation for auto running halfway across the map. I find it a fine trade off.

Granted, if the options allow it, I set it to "mouse 5" where my index finger is (or the thumb button for an older mouse) but there are some games that don't recognize mice with that many buttons.

Middle mouse is for the camera for me.

I currently have o for auto run. Two reasons. I am often playing on a laptop and there is no number pad or even insert home etc keys. Secondly with the way that key bindings currently are, hitting numlock disables camera movement for all the keypad keys (when I am using a normal key board). Most frustrating. I never hit o by accident nor go running off into the next largest group of mob/creatures/cliffs/ocean unintentionally. The only time that might happen is when I am trying to type and am looking at the keyboard and not paying attention to what is happening.

I would be happy if there was a secondary key binding that made sense, like u or even r or even even ` (the button next to 1). I really dislike numlock. I know that the devs are planning to make the camera mouse operated which gets rid of the issues surrounding the whole numpad thing but I still don't like it.

SoG? Where? :-P
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
Alas gone are the days when this was easy to do.