Going to websites and simply paraphrasing specific claims about Islam, and randomly quoting hadiths, is not research - it is elementary information gathering at best.

Real research requires comprehensive analysis and investigation, and when it comes to the hadiths, one must consider the following: what is the overall consensus of the Muslim scholars on these hadiths? Their authenticity? Their interpretations? And the rulings to be derived, IF ANY, from such hadiths?

And to be a recognized, legit scholar in the Muslim world, at least according to Sunni norms, one must have at least the following credentials (and here, I'm not talking about people who attend 4 year Shariah colleges in a Middle Eastern country, I'm talking about actual scholars who can trace their chain of teachers all the way back to the companions and the Prophet himself):

- Mastery of Classical Arabic- At most times, memorization of the entire Quran, including preferably its different qiraat (readings/recitations) - I believe there are 7-10 different qiraat of the Qur'an. Many Muslims actually don't know this fact and stumble when they learn about it from some Christian missionaries.- A solid grounding in and understanding of pre-Islamic Arab poetry- Memorized thousands of hadith and their chains of transmission- Has a recognized ijaza (in modern day parlance, this term would mean certificate, but "permission to teach" would be more accurate to convey from the meaning) from several scholars to teach specific texts- Knowledge of the asbab al-nuzul - the reasons/circumstances of the revelations of the verses and the Qur'an, and their context

That's just to name a few.

The hadiths you posted about Satan, urine, etc I had never even seen before or ever heard mentioned by scholars I've come across before, so I would have to do some research on it myself. But since the ideas presented therein seem so foreign to me and those I know, I am confident that they have no real basis in the faith.

What some here are doing are what the secular humanists do when they take the Bible and other religious sources and mutilate them left and right, with no consideration whatsoever of the intellectual traditions and commentaries that have accumulated over such texts.

I also addressed in one of the earliest posts regarding the problematic nature of hadiths for lay believers - the earliest scholars of Islam believed that the books of hadith should only be reference sources for properly trained people, as those without the prerequisite knowledge would begin to quote and interpret things according to their own preconceived notions, thereby creating all kinds of havoc (Imam Malik ibn Anas was adamant about how hadith books, and even the Quran, should not fall into the wrong hands) It is a recognized fact that even approaching the Quran the wrong way can lead to misguidance, at times dangerous, if not severe. And what we see now with Islam is a byproduct of unqualified people diving into these pre-modern texts they have no business diving into and passing off their own modern interpretations. You'll see this with many Islamists in the political realm; one obvious example of this is Egypt. Morsi and many like him are all engineers; they're not trained in the tradition.

And in the 20th century, as some Muslim countries attempted to modernize, the education system went through major changes. Centuries ago, the cream of the crop would study religion and the religious law. However, with the advent of modernization (and subject placement testing), the smartest students get sent to engineering or medical school, while the lowest on the totem pole get sent to religious studies. To say that this will cause problems is an understatement.

Anyway, if anyone really does have serious questions about Islam that they would like to discuss, it would be better to send me a PM, and I'll try my best to answer any such questions. Going back and forth in certain threads with certain individuals has not led to anything constructive.

Would you say al-Wahhab fit into the "norm" for expertise?

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Quote from: GabrieltheCelt

If you spend long enough on this forum, you'll come away with all sorts of weird, untrue ideas of Orthodox Christianity.

Quote from: orthonorm

I would suggest most persons in general avoid any question beginning with why.

That is usually attributed to 'Uthman, but it seems to have happened instead under his relatives the Umayyid caliphs during the Second Fitna/Civil War around 700, to judge by the common links in the transmission of the story. Before then we have no Quranic material, although we have a fair amount of Muslim material, and the non-Muslim sources speak of a holy book of the Muslims only after that time. It cannot be said to be finally redacted until Ibn Mujahid codified its readings around 900.

Do you know of any 'rouge' copies out that that might have survived?

I heard that there's a quote carved out on a mosque that doesn't exist in that form in the Koran, proving that the words were not 'set in stone' in the beginning

You are probably thinking of the inscriptions in the Dome of the Rock.

There was a pile of early Qurans found in the Sana' mosque from the second hijri century, which do not match the texts. There was even an article on them in the Atlantic a decade ago IIRC.

Going to websites and simply paraphrasing specific claims about Islam, and randomly quoting hadiths, is not research - it is elementary information gathering at best.

Real research requires comprehensive analysis and investigation, and when it comes to the hadiths, one must consider the following: what is the overall consensus of the Muslim scholars on these hadiths? Their authenticity? Their interpretations? And the rulings to be derived, IF ANY, from such hadiths?

And to be a recognized, legit scholar in the Muslim world, at least according to Sunni norms, one must have at least the following credentials (and here, I'm not talking about people who attend 4 year Shariah colleges in a Middle Eastern country, I'm talking about actual scholars who can trace their chain of teachers all the way back to the companions and the Prophet himself):

- Mastery of Classical Arabic- At most times, memorization of the entire Quran, including preferably its different qiraat (readings/recitations) - I believe there are 7-10 different qiraat of the Qur'an. Many Muslims actually don't know this fact and stumble when they learn about it from some Christian missionaries.- A solid grounding in and understanding of pre-Islamic Arab poetry- Memorized thousands of hadith and their chains of transmission- Has a recognized ijaza (in modern day parlance, this term would mean certificate, but "permission to teach" would be more accurate to convey from the meaning) from several scholars to teach specific texts- Knowledge of the asbab al-nuzul - the reasons/circumstances of the revelations of the verses and the Qur'an, and their context

That's just to name a few.

The hadiths you posted about Satan, urine, etc I had never even seen before or ever heard mentioned by scholars I've come across before, so I would have to do some research on it myself. But since the ideas presented therein seem so foreign to me and those I know, I am confident that they have no real basis in the faith.

What some here are doing are what the secular humanists do when they take the Bible and other religious sources and mutilate them left and right, with no consideration whatsoever of the intellectual traditions and commentaries that have accumulated over such texts.

I also addressed in one of the earliest posts regarding the problematic nature of hadiths for lay believers - the earliest scholars of Islam believed that the books of hadith should only be reference sources for properly trained people, as those without the prerequisite knowledge would begin to quote and interpret things according to their own preconceived notions, thereby creating all kinds of havoc (Imam Malik ibn Anas was adamant about how hadith books, and even the Quran, should not fall into the wrong hands) It is a recognized fact that even approaching the Quran the wrong way can lead to misguidance, at times dangerous, if not severe. And what we see now with Islam is a byproduct of unqualified people diving into these pre-modern texts they have no business diving into and passing off their own modern interpretations. You'll see this with many Islamists in the political realm; one obvious example of this is Egypt. Morsi and many like him are all engineers; they're not trained in the tradition.

And in the 20th century, as some Muslim countries attempted to modernize, the education system went through major changes. Centuries ago, the cream of the crop would study religion and the religious law. However, with the advent of modernization (and subject placement testing), the smartest students get sent to engineering or medical school, while the lowest on the totem pole get sent to religious studies. To say that this will cause problems is an understatement.

Anyway, if anyone really does have serious questions about Islam that they would like to discuss, it would be better to send me a PM, and I'll try my best to answer any such questions. Going back and forth in certain threads with certain individuals has not led to anything constructive.

I don't think anything was paraphrased from the Hadith, just cut and pasted as a quote. And instead of this huge post where you include the need to master classical Arabic, why not simply do your research then explain to us how we are misunderstanding these particular Hadiths? Alternatively, you could just say "Hmmm, that's weird. I'll get back to you on that."

I do understand your point somewhat. It annoys me when people (usually Atheists or Muslims) take things from Christian writings and make no effort to give a context. However, I don't think that this is what montalban did. The quote seems to provide the context.

You say that you are not familiar with this particular Hadith? I suppose then it is a question of whether or not it is an obscure passage. Are there obscure Hadith passages? And by "obscure" I mean ones which are no longer to be taken seriously.

Also, if we as Orthodox encountered such a strange tradition such as that from within our religion, I don't think we would be so quick to defend the tradition.

« Last Edit: May 03, 2013, 05:21:47 AM by john_mo »

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Love is not blind; that is the last thing that it is. Love is bound; and the more it is bound the less it is blind.

I don't think anything was paraphrased from the Hadith, just cut and pasted as a quote. And instead of this huge post where you include the need to master classical Arabic, why not simply do your research then explain to us how we are misunderstanding these particular Hadiths? Alternatively, you could just say "Hmmm, that's weird. I'll get back to you on that."

I do understand your point somewhat. It annoys me when people (usually Atheists or Muslims) take things from Christian writings and make no effort to give a context. However, I don't think that this is what montalban did. The quote seems to provide the context.

You say that you are not familiar with this particular Hadith? I suppose then it is a question of whether or not it is an obscure passage. Are there obscure Hadith passages? And by "obscure" I mean ones which are no longer to be taken seriously.

Also, if we as Orthodox encountered such a strange tradition such as that from within our religion, I don't think we would be so quick to defend the tradition.

I agree

It is not surprising that people don't know all their own faith. I still have trouble understanding aspects of Orthodoxy.

I expect the same exists in Islam; especially as Hadith are huge collections.

However as noted, Islamic expert sites cite reasons why Moslems perform ritual cleansing. Moslems may know that they are to clean their noses, without knowing the reasons why. This is but one very specific example I cited.

I confess I ask myself the the same question when I see protestanti and catoliki make convert to pravoslavi religia.

What does this mean for those of us who don't speak Turkish?

gibberish, for those of us who speak Turkish and those who don't.

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Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.A hasty quarrel kindles fire,and urgent strife sheds blood.If you blow on a spark, it will glow;if you spit on it, it will be put out; and both come out of your mouth

I confess I ask myself the the same question when I see protestanti and catoliki make convert to pravoslavi religia.

What does this mean for those of us who don't speak Turkish?

Not Turkish but pidgin of sorts: "...when I see Protestants and Catholics convert to the Orthodox Religion."

still gibberish.

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Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.A hasty quarrel kindles fire,and urgent strife sheds blood.If you blow on a spark, it will glow;if you spit on it, it will be put out; and both come out of your mouth

I had not used green to indicate that I was posting as the moderator, so it is OK this once to contest my advice in public. Next time it happens, I will put you on moderation. OK? Carl Kraeff, Section Moderator