Syria is pressing Hamas and Islamic Jihad to renew their suicide operations against Israel, contrary to Saudi Arabian demands on Yasser Arafat and Palestinian organizations to desist from such attacks.

Security sources say Saudi pressure on Hamas to halt suicide bombings had led to bitter internal debate in its leadership. While continuing to deny Saudi pressure in public, it is known there are some in the local Hamas leadership who say it would be best to comply with the Saudi request, which would be temporary and tactical.

Among those favoring a halt to suicide attacks are the head of the military wing, Salah Shehade, from Gaza, whom Israel holds responsible for the terror attack earlier this month in Rishon Letzion, where 15 people were killed.

The Saudi pressure comes from an understanding between Washington and Riyadh reached during Crown Prince Abdullah's recent visit to President George Bush.

Previously it was known the Saudis were helping Hamas with funds and helping to support families of suicide bombers, as emerged from many documents confiscated by the IDF in Operation Defensive Shield.

Syria, on the other hand, is playing an entirely different game. Despite Syrian President Bashar Assad's participation in the summit meeting at Sharm el Sheikh, it is known he has urged Hamas to step up its operations and Islamic Jihad has already agreed to do so. Syria has promised Hamas financial aid if it renews suicide bombings.

On the one hand, Damascus fears direct military confrontation with Israel and has responded to demands by U.S. Secretary of State Colin Powell to restrain Hezbollah. On the other hand, Damascus maintains its aggressive posture against Israel.

Syria is assumed to be coordinating its efforts with Tehran. Internationally, this has created the unusual situation of a state sitting on the UN Security Council making clearly aggressive moves. American intelligence is aware of all this, but Bush has meanwhile refrained from including Syria in his "axis

Syria is assumed to be coordinating its efforts with Tehran. Internationally, this has created the unusual situation of a state sitting on the UN Security Council making clearly aggressive moves. American intelligence is aware of all this, but Bush has meanwhile refrained from including Syria in his "axis of evil."

This is stuff we more or less assumed or knew already. The Saudis want a temporary halt to suicide bombings while it's politically fashionable. Then later when the time is right, send in these other people to kills the Israelis en masse.

Iran and Syria are still pushing for non-Syrians and non-Iranians to do their dirty work for them. Washington is letting politics get I the way of what's really the right thing to do, fearing it will escalate into a broad war when in fact it will only make the inevitable worse.

In the end, they all want the same thing: let these Palestinians kill themselves, destroy Israel, grab land, kill each other, grab more land, etc.

The world would be better off without any of these assholes. Better them than the kids (whether their children or others') they send in to do their murdering for them.

Israel refused to respond to the report claiming that last week its navy had sunk an arms ship that was headed to the Palestinian Authority. This time, apparently, Hezbollah was behind the smuggling attempt. And when one says Hezbollah was involved, it means that the Iranians, indirectly or not, had a hand in the matter. It would not be a mistake to assume that the sunken ship's hold contained Katyusha rockets.

Following the Israel Navy's capture of the Karine A weapons ship, with its 50 tons of arms and ammunition, the Iranians spread a rumor that the incident had been part of "a sting operation" on the part of the Mossad. In other words, Mossad agents had posed as Iranians and, as such, had transferred the arms found on the Palestinian boat.

When proof of Arafat's involvement and his ties with Iran mounted, Tehran changed its tune and admitted that the arms had indeed originated in Iran, claiming, however, that they had come from marginal groups operating without the knowledge of the authorities.

Iranian involvement stretches over a number of areas: Recently, they handed over the arms depots established by the Revolutionary Guards in Lebanon to Hezbollah.

The Palestinian aspect of the sunken ship affair is no less serious. It shows that the Palestinians' attempts to smuggle weapons and ammunition have not ceased, not even in the wake of Operation Defensive Shield. Despite the blow they have taken, the Palestinians are continuing with their efforts to procure arms and other equipment banned in accordance with the Oslo accords. Their tireless quest to arm themselves can mean only one thing - a desire to continue the war.

Further proof of this desire comes in the form of the endless efforts to dig tunnels in the Rafah area for the purpose of smuggling from Egypt. If the Palestinians had the scope of control at the international border crossings that they are continually demanding, they would be able to stockpile far larger quantities of arms. Therefore, when the talks on the final settlement arrangements resume, it will be of vital importance to strenuously oppose granting the Palestinians full authority at these crossings. In fact, one of the lessons of the current conflict is the need to beef up Israeli control at such points.

When it comes to smuggling arms, Palestinian ingenuity takes on various forms, peaking in the request for aid recently submitted to the European Union. The German weekly, Die Welt, wrote that in one of the clauses, the Palestinian Authority asks for $20 million for the purchase of arms for the Palestinian police force. The weekly ironically notes that this request is prioritized higher than clauses dealing with health and education.

In the past, the Palestinians demanded, and received, cash from the Norwegians for their "counter security" mechanism. A logical conclusion, therefore, is that this Norwegian money found its way into the hands of those who were involved in acts of terror against Israeli citizens.

This time, they are asking for arms for the Palestinian police force; but when they say "police," they could also mean Force 17 and its ilk. Israel must make it clear to the EU that it will not permit the transfer of arms at crossings under its supervision, even if the shipment bears the seal of the most respected of European leaders.

A second audacious clause that appears on the list of aid requests concerns a sum of $15.5 million for the families of "the martyrs," the shaheeds. The request states that the Palestinians intend to raise $40.5 million for this cause, and that the EU's share will be $15.5 million. The German weekly bitingly notes that the term, "martyrs," usually refers to suicide terrorists.

In total, the PA has presented the EU with a bill amounting to almost $2 billion ($1.944 billion). The Europeans are saying that such a demand is way over the top, while I have heard from the Palestinians that they are convinced that the renewed aid from the EU will eventually reach a sum of around $1 billion.

Based on the lessons from the past, it appears that the refugees and those whose situation is truly dire will not be the ones to benefit from this money.

The reason I post these links is to show all those people who insist on viewing the Israeli Palestinian conflict as a local struggle between the occupied and the occupier...
Things are far more complicated then that. and expecting Israel to ignore the grave risks all these developments pose is to ask it to commit suicide !

I really wonder how do all of you who constantly criticize Israel can justify slamming it down when its clear that so much of the Arab world is interested in only one thing :
The short term weakening of Israel leading to its destruction later !
What do you want Israel to do ?
How can you negotiate and deal with terrorist sponsoring dictatorships ?

[quote]I really wonder how do all of you who constantly criticize Israel can justify slamming it down when its clear that so much of the Arab world is interested in only one thing :
The short term weakening of Israel leading to its destruction later !<hr></blockquote>

I criticize Israel when I think she needs criticism, but what you're doing here is a red herring argument. I, as a part-time Israel-critic, do not wish to see her destruction. Very very few people do.

I don't feel that Israel is threatened in any sense of actual destruction. Israel has defeated all of these nations before and Israel is only more powerful now. There is no reason to think that Israel has gotten weaker militarily. You guys even have nukes now.

[quote]What do you want Israel to do ?
How can you negotiate and deal with terrorist sponsoring dictatorships ?<hr></blockquote>

Some might argue that most nations sponsor some form of terrorism.

Quite frankly, the Israelis have no other choice, and as it stands now these terrorism-sponsoring nations have a few valid points of contention (not that suicide attacks are justified, of course).

Groverat you seem to forget the history of the region ... don't forget that Arabs tried to destroy Israel 3 times in the past 50 years ... every one of these times Israel won by sheer determination and some international support.
Every one of these attempts cost Israel thousands of lives and in every case there were moments where it was damn close to being finished off.
You seem to ignore the fact the Israel ( unlike your beloved Texas ) has no territorial depth, has a very small population ( therefore cant really sustain serious casualties ) and is totally outnumbered by its hostile neighbors.
Any war for Israel is a huge undertaking stopping all normal life .. to suggest Israel is strong under these circumstances is ludicrous... its got a powerful military but all it takes is one effective surprise attack or an unconventional strike and the country is in deep shit !
millions of Arabs still regard the WHOLE of Israel as an illegal entity and dream of seeing it destroyed.
read some Arab main stream papers ... see what most politicians and people in the Arab street say about it ... the rhetoric has changed very little in the past 50 years . its sad, but we cannot afford to ignore it ( even tough you seem content to do so).

You still can't offer a single reasonable solution to provide for Israel's security or a way to guarantee its future ... all you can do is sit in your Ivory tower and point out every Israeli mistake you can name.. what about Arab mistakes/evil deeds/massacres/occupation.....etc
Sure feel free to criticize Israel as much as you like ( I do it all the time and I am an Israeli ) but what you do is giving in to Arab lies and distortions ...

Why is Syria respected as a member of the security council ? ( don't forget or maybe you never knew that Syria is brutally occupying Lebanon and is actively supporting Hamas, Islamic Jihad and Hizbullah )

What do you expect Israel to do in order to ensure its security if not to be extremely suspicious of these dirty Arab tactics ?

For starters, give Palestine its land back and help form a Palestinian state as a gesture of good will.

If Israel does that, further attacks will only have the motive of Israel's destruction and there will be full justification for Israel to go in and kick all the ass it likes.

Until that point, this issue cannot be so clear.

And no, I don't think Israel as a state is really threatened. Her citizens are, sure, but so are my fellow Americans. 3,000 of us may die in a cowardly act of terrorism, but America as she stands will remain.

And I'll take a nuclear weapon arsenal over a mass of untrained lunatics. One nuclear weapon kills lots and lots of lunatics.

[quote]Originally posted by groverat:
<strong>For starters, give Palestine its land back and help form a Palestinian state as a gesture of good will.

If Israel does that, further attacks will only have the motive of Israel's destruction and there will be full justification for Israel to go in and kick all the ass it likes.

Until that point, this issue cannot be so clear.

And no, I don't think Israel as a state is really threatened. Her citizens are, sure, but so are my fellow Americans. 3,000 of us may die in a cowardly act of terrorism, but America as she stands will remain.

And I'll take a nuclear weapon arsenal over a mass of untrained lunatics. One nuclear weapon kills lots and lots of lunatics.</strong><hr></blockquote>

Again we go back to the same tired old arguments,
Israel and the US offered the Palestinians a state with almost all that they ever wanted ... in Camp David and then Taba .. they rejected it .. they did so because they knew that once they get what they claim to want they will have no further justification for attacks .. that is why they rejected these deals .. because they want to keep going until Israel is tired and dead.

You think Israel is not under threat ? think again .. all it takes is one small chemical or bio bomb in the center of Tel Aviv and Israel economy and C&C centers are down ... a successful surprise attack by the Syrians along with an attack from the south by the Egyptians combined with a massive upsurge of Palestinian violence .. and don't forget Hizbullah from Lebanon ... this could be very very bad , even for Israel's mighty military.
How can you even begin to compare a tiny nation of 6 million to the huge super power that is the US ? <img src="graemlins/oyvey.gif" border="0" alt="[No]" /> you're not making any sense !
and your argument re nukes is the most ridiculous I have ever heard .. even if Israel has nuks ( which no one knows for sure) it can never really use them effectively ... the distances between its enemies and its cities will effectively mean Israel will be nuking itself .. also think of the global repercussions of such an act.... totally mad .. I think it would be slightly more sensible of you to think about the plausible not the fanciful...

My original point was how do you expect Israel to reach an agreement with the Palestinians when the Palestinians constantly reject any attempt to negotiate, they use indiscriminate terror and they are being supported in this by some of the darkest regimes in the world ....
What would you have Israel do ? retreat back to the pre 67 lines and hope the Arabs play it nice ? and if they don't .. well tough... . at least we tried to be nice to the Arabs ?
What do you propose ?

[quote]What would you have Israel do ? retreat back to the pre 67 lines and hope the Arabs play it nice ? and if they don't .. well tough... . at least we tried to be nice to the Arabs ?
What do you propose ?<hr></blockquote>

Did you not read my post?

I quote myself:
"For starters, give Palestine its land back and help form a Palestinian state as a gesture of good will.
If Israel does that, further attacks will only have the motive of Israel's destruction and there will be full justification for Israel to go in and kick all the ass it likes.

Until that point, this issue cannot be so clear."

Go back to your borders and defend yourselves. What is going on now is not defense, it is territory acquisition.

When Israel removes itself from land that isn't theirs there is a possibility to move forward. The UN or someone must step in to organize a proper Palestinian government.

IF AT THAT POINT the attacks on Israel continue then she is justified in attacking back in DEFENSE.

I am not at all worried about the existence of Israel as a nation. Not only is Israel one of the most powerful nations in the region, she is backed by THE most powerful nation in the history of the planet (arguably).

Israel will be here for a long long long time, things are not as dire as you are making them sound.

The "they are going to destroy our entire nation!" rhetoric will do nothing but make this worse.

[quote]Originally posted by groverat:
<strong>
Did you not read my post?
</strong><hr></blockquote>

yep, sure I did .. did you read mine ? I mentioned there that Israel has tried to give all you are asking it to give. it offered just that with the backing of the US [most powerful county ever ] and it offered it more then once ... Palestinians rejected it ! why did they do it ?
you also didn't answer my question re how can Israel enter into any kind of meaningful negotiations if the Palestinians constantly revert back to using their terrorist violence and reject every mediation effort by the US ? we have had sooo many ceasefire plans.... Mitchell, Tennent, Zini, Solana, ...etc... every single one of them rejected by Arafat.... I agree with your basic premise of what the end solution should be but how can we get there ?

[quote]Originally posted by groverat:
<strong>
Go back to your borders and defend yourselves. What is going on now is not defense, it is territory acquisition.
</strong><hr></blockquote>

What are the Israeli borders ? who will define these ? the Arabs can claim forever that we have not retreated to the right borders .. who will be the judge of that ? we have a similar situation in Lebanon where Israel has retreated to UN recognized lines but the Syrians and the Lebanese still don't accept the Internationally recognized border and continuously attack Israel ... I don't see any widespread endorsement [ by the UN, EU, US] of Israeli military action against this aggression...

[quote]Originally posted by groverat:
<strong>
IF AT THAT POINT the attacks on Israel continue then she is justified in attacking back in DEFENSE.
</strong><hr></blockquote>

well, that was kind of what happened in Lebanon in 82 - Israel was being constantly attacked from across the international border and then it attacked Lebanon to stop it .. the whole world condemned it even tough it was self defense ... how can we trust the UN and the rest of them that they wont do it after a similar thing happens in the OT ? with Syria in the security council and Zimbabwe, Russia, Algiers and some other crapsters in the UN human rights commission .. its such a farce

[quote]Originally posted by groverat:
<strong>
I am not at all worried about the existence of Israel as a nation. Not only is Israel one of the most powerful nations in the region, she is backed by THE most powerful nation in the history of the planet (arguably).
</strong><hr></blockquote>

yes that's true but that may change ... and then what ? Israel would be left to the wolfs to feast on .... !

I can't see the U.S. ever not backing Israel. She is far too valuable as a friendly nation in the region and we have many influential and powerful Jews here who will keep Israel an integral part of our foreign policy.

I can't see the U.S. ever not backing Israel. She is far too valuable as a friendly nation in the region and we have many influential and powerful Jews here who will keep Israel an integral part of our foreign policy.</strong><hr></blockquote>

Dude .. we have been through this before, Israel will never be able to go back to the exact pre 67 lines, its unpractical these days.. but it has offered land which is equivalent to 100% pre 67 territory in size. UN resolution 242 does not state that Israel needs to withdraw to pre 67 lines exactly, it says that Israel needs to retreat to accepted borders to be agreed upon in negotiations...
Fine, Palestinians didn't like the deal Clinton and Barak offered them at Camp David and Taba .. why start attacking Israel why not just continue negotiating ? this kind of thing pulls the carpet from under the argument that all Arafat wanted was a little more land and that would have made him happy ... he clearly and flatly rejected the Clinton offer even as a basis for further negotiation .... how can you back this behavior up if what you claim is that all you want is for Palestinians to have their state in peace ? everyone knows they could have had that ages ago.....
And you still haven't answered ANY of my other questions.
I can't see ( and this is the basic point of this thread) how you can separate the Israeli Palestinian conflict from the rest of the Arab Israeli conflict they are one and the same ! you cannot address one without addressing the other !

I am not familiar with the Lebanon and Syria questions. Though if things truly are as you present them then Israel is fully justified in its attacks against those two nations.

However, they are not the same as Palestine, it is not "one and the same" as you say.

[quote]this kind of thing pulls the carpet from under the argument that all Arafat wanted was a little more land and that would have made him happy<hr></blockquote>

You misunderstand me.
I do not pretend to know what the outcome of any particular action would be. I have never claimed that giving Palestine 100% of the pre-1967 borders would make everything peaceful and happy, what I DO claim is that giving back 100% of the pre-1967 territory (what is "impractical" about it?) will give Israel the proper moral and diplomatic footing to launch real and effective defensive actions.

I do not claim to know that Arafat would say "groovy, let's all be happy and peaceful" if it all were to be given back nor do I claim to know that Sharon wouldn't like to take as much Palestinian territory as he could if given the opportunity.

To be quite frank, I think both sides have acted in morally repugnant ways (the suicide bombers being the height of barbarism). Israel has to opportunity to either establish clear moral/diplomatic superiority or establish peace. Either way, I see Israel as being the winner. All it will take is the swallowing of a bit of pride.

[quote]Originally posted by groverat:
<strong>For starters, give Palestine its land back and help form a Palestinian state as a gesture of good will. ...</strong><hr></blockquote>

For starters how about PA clean up the corruption and terrorism in it's own system. Hold free elections and have a system of government answerable to the people. Work hard to stop terrorist and gain control over foreign influence in its own borders. ... As a gesture of good will of couse.

[whiningisraelhater]well if the israeli terrorist would leave them alone maybe they could do that[/whiningisraelhater]

Groverat, I couldn't agree more re your assesment of the Palestinian/ Israeli situation but you raise a question that's been bugging me. (sorry to go off topic a little)

"To be quite frank, I think both sides have acted in morally repugnant ways (the suicide bombers being the height of barbarism)."

Is the killing of others more reprehensible when it costs your own life, or when you are able to do it with no risk to yourself?

Certainly from the media coverage the suicide aspect ups the ante but I don't get it. If the Palestinians had bombers that could deliver their payload to Israel that would be more acceptable? Isn't it the taking of the llives of others thats the problem not the method?

[quote]Originally posted by groverat:
<strong>I am not familiar with the Lebanon and Syria questions. Though if things truly are as you present them then Israel is fully justified in its attacks against those two nations.

However, they are not the same as Palestine, it is not "one and the same" as you say.</strong><hr></blockquote>

I think that they are in many respects...dont forget that Syria sponsors Hamas and Islamic Jihad and the Popular Front fro the Liberation of Palestine. Syria and Other Arab nations use the Palestinian cause as a stick with which to hit Israel which they have failed to beat in the battle field ... they use the violence in the OT as a means to weaken Israel and humiliate it ... Most Arabs cannot still forget the many humiliating defeats they have had at battles against israel.
Sudia Arabia, Egypt, Jordan ( who's population is 70% Palestinian), Syria and Iran all stick their long fingers into this mess and try and manipulate it for their own narrow interests. on the face of it this is a struggle between israelis and Palestinians but in reality this is just another chapter in the long story of the Arab world trying to destroy/come to terms/weaken what they call the Zionist Entity.

[quote]Originally posted by groverat:
<strong>
You misunderstand me.
I do not pretend to know what the outcome of any particular action would be. I have never claimed that giving Palestine 100% of the pre-1967 borders would make everything peaceful and happy, what I DO claim is that giving back 100% of the pre-1967 territory (what is "impractical" about it?)</strong><hr></blockquote>

Whats impractical about it is that people have moved around populations have changed and shifted Jerusalem for instance has grown by a factor of a few hundred percent etc.... in fact if you look at some of the suggestion floating around in Israel these days some people are talking about detaching some of pre 67 Israel ( parts that are mainly Arab ) and passing these into Palestinians control as well .. this will basically give the Palestinians more then 100% of pre 67 land.

[quote]Originally posted by groverat:
<strong>
To be quite frank, I think both sides have acted in morally repugnant ways (the suicide bombers being the height of barbarism). Israel has to opportunity to either establish clear moral/diplomatic superiority or establish peace. Either way, I see Israel as being the winner. All it will take is the swallowing of a bit of pride.</strong><hr></blockquote>

I can definitely say I agree with most of what you say there ... and I agree that Israel should not stay in the OT... problem is how do you withdraw with the other side not ready to negotiate with you ? if Israel just withdrew tomorrow ( a one sided withdrawal ) most of the world would not accept the new borders as legal ... based on res 242 negotiations must take place prior to a definitive border being setup... many israelis ponder the option of a 'unilateral separation' from Palestinians .. problems is the US and EU hate that idea coz it puts Palestinian problems straight on their plates, and Arab states hate it coz it will take away the main tool they have to weaken Israel with ... what to do ?

Please understand that most israelis ( over 80% according to recent polls) support a separation and a setup of an independent Palestinian state there are arguments about the detail of how much land , what land, what about borders .. etc.. technical stuff..... but the basic point is that the occupation is dead... the frustration in Israeli minds though is that people dont believe that ending the occupation will stop Arab terrorism , they can't believe a word Arafat says and they are fed up with the terrorist attacks racking their lives. all they hear constantly is Palestinians talking about how they will redeem Tel Aviv and blow the Jews to hell ....

AFAIK, "Palestine," or the occupied terrority of the West Bank is originally Jordanian, originally called "Trans-Jordan" by the British and comprised mainly of the region generally referred to as Palestine. Jordan lost that land in the '67 war along with their control of Jerusalem. Wouldn't be more accurate to say that the Palestinian population is mostly comprised of former Jordanians?

...

Oh, and this paragraph sums much of this up nicely:

[quote]I can definitely say I agree with most of what you say there ... and I agree that Israel should not stay in the OT... problem is how do you withdraw with the other side not ready to negotiate with you ? if Israel just withdrew tomorrow ( a one sided withdrawal ) most of the world would not accept the new borders as legal ... based on res 242 negotiations must take place prior to a definitive border being setup... many israelis ponder the option of a 'unilateral separation' from Palestinians .. problems is the US and EU hate that idea coz it puts Palestinian problems straight on their plates, and Arab states hate it coz it will take away the main tool they have to weaken Israel with ... what to do ?<hr></blockquote>

quoteI don't feel that Israel is threatened in any sense of actual destruction. Israel has defeated all of these nations before and Israel is only more powerful now. There is no reason to think that Israel has gotten weaker militarily. You guys even have nukes now.

Israels economy depends on foreign investment. The Arabs might not yet have succeeded in destroying Israel militarily, but they are doing a very good job at destroying Israels economy. They have scared away all foreign capital that otherwise would have flowed to Israel. In fact, they recently have picked up on this theme, and they and their sympathizers, have again called for economic boycotts of Israel. Some of the Scandinavian states were only too willing to oblige.

Therefore, your argument groverat is a somewhat shallow argument, because Israel *is* facing a serious challenge to its viability.

quoteFor starters, give Palestine its land back and help form a Palestinian state as a gesture of good will.

Israel initially accepted the partition plan. So from 1947-1967 did Israel enjoy any measure of security? Why are you still arguing as though all this happens in a vacuum?

[quote]Originally posted by scott_h_phd:
<strong>See? This thread is largely being ignored.</strong><hr></blockquote>

I must say I am amazed by people's ignorance and reluctance to negotiate the real issues in this conflict .. the best thing most people on this forum can come up with is 'Israel is and Evil Racist Apartheid state and should stop oppressing the poor Palestinians NOW !' or 'Israel is a beacon of freedom and can do no wrong' ...
Why can't we have a serious informed debate about this ? why does everyone insist on ignoring the wider issues related to the middle east ... I mean Groverat was into serious discussion here and was saying lots of sensible and thought provoking stuff but where are all you other critics and smart people ? especially those who love to show up for a second spew some baseless crap and bugger off again....
Let's see you have a real debate ;D

. the best thing most people on this forum can come up with is 'Israel is and Evil Racist Apartheid state and should stop oppressing the poor Palestinians NOW !' or 'Israel is a beacon of freedom and can do no wrong' ...
;D</strong><hr></blockquote>

Calm down Rashumon, the majority of the people of AI does not think that Israel is an evil racist apartheid state nor they think it's a beacon of freedom. If you post in a thread it's because (i hope) there is something interesting or funny (but it's not a good place for that : because the middle east situation is not funny) to say. I have watched this thread and the discussion between you and PC killa, i have watch also others discussions between you and others. Their knowledge of the situation and the history of Israel and Palestine go way further than mine. I have made some posts in other threads about the subject, but i do not like to post in that kind of threads where my nationality appears for certain people has a proof of rampant antisemitism.
So don't feel ofusced if there is not many people who participate to this thread, i love constructive discussion (like you) but i have very little taste for flamewar.

I must say I am amazed by people's ignorance and reluctance to negotiate the real issues in this conflict .. the best thing most people on this forum can come up with is 'Israel is and Evil Racist Apartheid state and should stop oppressing the poor Palestinians NOW !' or 'Israel is a beacon of freedom and can do no wrong' ...
Why can't we have a serious informed debate about this ? why does everyone insist on ignoring the wider issues related to the middle east ... I mean Groverat was into serious discussion here and was saying lots of sensible and thought provoking stuff but where are all you other critics and smart people ? especially those who love to show up for a second spew some baseless crap and bugger off again....
Let's see you have a real debate ;D</strong><hr></blockquote>

So my suggestion that the PA is a corrupt "government" and a direct supporter of terrorism is "baseless crap" and that my suggestion that they create a government answerable to the people and gain control over their own country so a peace process can start with a country that's not a terrorist state is also "baseless crap" and the best thing I could do is "bugger off"? <img src="confused.gif" border="0">

So my suggestion that the PA is a corrupt "government" and a direct supporter of terrorism is "baseless crap" and that my suggestion that they create a government answerable to the people and gain control over their own country so a peace process can start with a country that's not a terrorist state is also "baseless crap" and the best thing I could do is "bugger off"? :confused: </strong><hr></blockquote>

Off course not mate , I wasn't referring to you at all.. I was talking about people like SJO, Giant and mac's girl who in the past just showed up from the blue blasted with ridiculous accusations and then went away without proving or showing any interest in arguing their point.
I apologize if my post gives the impression that I'm criticizing anyone who has been interested in stating their opinions and was willing to stand up to them, that certainly wasn't my intention.
Thanx for pointing this out powerdoc and scott_h_phd.

You're joking right? Arafat is a terrorist. It's a total joke to think that Arafat was making anything other than a token effort againt terrorist. What's he going to do? Jail himself? Maybe he should do the right thing and put a gun to his head?

Interesting read .. but it seems that the <a href="http://www.haaretzdaily.com/hasen/pages/ShArt.jhtml?itemNo=166544&displayTypeCd=1&sideCd=1 &contrassID=2" target="_blank">US Administration</a> is not that sure about its opinions either....
Anyway New , what do you think about all these sticky fingers poking the pie ? do you not see how complicated is this whole issue and how difficult it is to really pave a way out of this mess.. especially when all this violence is going on and any concession on either side will immediately be construed as a sign of weakness to be abused.
I hear soo much criticism of Israel and how it should abide by what the UN says but at the same time you have terrorist states like Syria sitting in the security council ( from which Israel is barred ) and people like Zimbabwe , China, Russia and Algiers in the Human rights UN comity ... did you know that last year the only countries on the planet who were criticized for Human rights abuses were Israel and Sudan ? is that not the most ridiculous thing you have ever heard.... fine Israel is not a saint but to single it out for human rights violations when MEGA abusers ( like China, Zimbabwe etc....) are dealing the accusations .. and without any mention for any of the Arab world's many abuses....or any other state for that matter ......thats a mega farce ! and one that doesn't serve to improve the UN's credibility.

Interesting read .. but it seems that the <a href="http://www.haaretzdaily.com/hasen/pages/ShArt.jhtml?itemNo=166544&displayTypeCd=1&sideCd=1 &contrassID=2" target="_blank">US Administration</a> is not that sure about its opinions either....
Anyway New , what do you think about all these sticky fingers poking the pie ? do you not see how complicated is this whole issue and how difficult it is to really pave a way out of this mess.. especially when all this violence is going on and any concession on either side will immediately be construed as a sign of weakness to be abused.
I hear soo much criticism of Israel and how it should abide by what the UN says but at the same time you have terrorist states like Syria sitting in the security council ( from which Israel is barred ) and people like Zimbabwe , China, Russia and Algiers in the Human rights UN comity ... did you know that last year the only countries on the planet who were criticized for Human rights abuses were Israel and Sudan ? is that not the most ridiculous thing you have ever heard.... fine Israel is not a saint but to single it out for human rights violations when MEGA abusers ( like China, Zimbabwe etc....) are dealing the accusations .. and without any mention for any of the Arab world's many abuses....or any other state for that matter ......thats a mega farce ! and one that doesn't serve to improve the UN's credibility.</strong><hr></blockquote>

Agreed. If people don't take the UN seriously, they simply need to take a look at the decisions they have made and the reasons will be apparent.

[quote]Anyway New , what do you think about all these sticky fingers poking the pie ? do you not see how complicated is this whole issue and how difficult it is to really pave a way out of this mess.. especially when all this violence is going on and any concession on either side will immediately be construed as a sign of weakness to be abused.
I hear soo much criticism of Israel and how it should abide by what the UN says but at the same time you have terrorist states like Syria sitting in the security council ( from which Israel is barred ) and people like Zimbabwe , China, Russia and Algiers in the Human rights UN comity ... did you know that last year the only countries on the planet who were criticized for Human rights abuses were Israel and Sudan ? is that not the most ridiculous thing you have ever heard.... fine Israel is not a saint but to single it out for human rights violations when MEGA abusers ( like China, Zimbabwe etc....) are dealing the accusations .. and without any mention for any of the Arab world's many abuses....or any other state for that matter ......thats a mega farce ! and one that doesn't serve to improve the UN's credibility. <hr></blockquote>
Well, we all have to relize that this is a discussion on many levels. From bigtime world politics all down to basic human rights. And one of the main problems is how "others" use this conflics to further their own goals. From the far christian right of the west, to the dictatorships of the middle- and far-east. The conflict has been "used" (abused) as a battleground for international politics for too long, and it seems that many parties are more interested in keeping the conflict "alive", then solving it. Syria is definatly one of these. Since UN is as bad (or good) as the sum of its members, i guess we cannot expect it to be perfect.
But Groverat has a point. Israel could do a lot better to improve its image. Right now (particularly with the last Likud vote), its not very easy to see that Israel really wants peace as much as you claim. We do hold Israel to different standards thats true. But much of the reason for that is because we expected so much of Isreal. As a becon of democracy, as a nation of former oppressed people.
And I think people generally in the west is disapointed with Israel. Your argument is still "the other guys are worse". Fine, if they are, then Israel has to be better, not fight the battles on the terms of the extreemists.

Concerning the UN, both Israel and the US have played a good part in undermining of the UNs credibility.

Bill Bradley to comedian Bill Cosby: "Bill, you are a comic, tell us a joke!"- "Senator, you are a politician, first tell us a lie!"

[quote]
Originally posted by Scott:
quote:
Concerning the UN, both Israel and the US have played a good part in undermining of the UNs credibility.
---------------------------------------------------------------
Please provide details. <hr></blockquote>
Well Israels disregard for the UN should be pretty obvious. To Israel the UN seems to play the same role as the two old guys on the balcony in Muppet show.
When it comes to the US I'll give you a couple of examples:
- This might suprise you, but the US on of the few western countries who still havn't ratified the UN declaration on childrens rights.
-The US has also refused to recognize the international tribunal against war criminals. (what way is that to fight terrorism?).
- No country in the world ows the UN more money than the US (put this improved a lot just after 9/11).

Bill Bradley to comedian Bill Cosby: "Bill, you are a comic, tell us a joke!"- "Senator, you are a politician, first tell us a lie!"

[quote]Originally posted by New:
<strong>
Well Israels disregard for the UN should be pretty obvious. To Israel the UN seems to play the same role as the two old guys on the balcony in Muppet show.

When it comes to the US I'll give you a couple of examples:........
.</strong><hr></blockquote>

Well isn't this an obvious way to treat an organization which relentlessly condemns Israel on any occasion (regardless of its actions), is controlled by Israel's enemies, has barred it from its institutions and has never applied anything like the same standards to judge other nations (especially Arab states)....
I have given you a classic example above .. the UN human rights comity bothering to rebuke only three states in the past year for human right violations- Iraq, Sudan and Israel.. this is the most laughable fact in the world ! countries like China dare point the finger at Israel and Ignore the FAR more terrible things going on in other parts of the world. Another example was the UN convention against racism where an idea about a convention against racism and bigotry was hijacked by some of the world's most obscene anti-Semites ... trying to enshrine in UN docs stuff like the Jewish world conspiracy and defining Israel as an Apartheid state ... NO country apart from the US stood by Israel's side and pointed this travesty out - NO ONE ! , where was that famous scandinavian or European sense of justice then ?
There's lots more..... can you begin to understand why Israel assumes it will get a raw deal when it comes to the UN and therefore treats it like the shambolic mess that it is ?

As for the US I really don't know what you are talking about ... The US is the single largest contributor of funds to the UN ( despite its debts..) its always tried to uphold sensible issues and rejected rubbish ones that go against its interests .. whats wrong with that ?
The US spends the most resources in the world on Peace keeping missions and is actively involved in trying to mediate dozens of conflicts around the globe. Its one of the biggest contributors of funds to refugees and poor third world countries.
That whole rhetoric ( which has become so frighteningly popular of late) of bashing the US in every opportunity and blaming it for every single problem out there is personally making me sick. so many countries owe the US their freedom and hope (including much of Europe) and the US by far has the most positive overall influence in the world. off course it makes lots of mistakes and causes **** loads of grief as well, but Europe does just as much crap and isn't even half as helpful as the US is.
Fair enough New, I accept and respect you for expecting higher standards from Israel or the US but you have to stay sensible and try not to loose sight of reason.... even when being critical......

Quote:
Well isn't this an obvious way to treat an organization which relentlessly condemns Israel on any occasion (regardless of its actions), is controlled by Israel's enemies, has barred it from its institutions and has never applied anything like the same standards to judge other nations (especially Arab states)...
Hey, Israel was created by the UN, and the UN is not controlled by israels enemies.

Quote:
I have given you a classic example above .. the UN human rights comity bothering to rebuke only three states in the past year for human right violations- Iraq, Sudan and Israel.. this is the most laughable fact in the world ! countries like China dare point the finger at Israel and Ignore the FAR more terrible things going on in other parts of the world.
I agree with you here. But as you see the two other countries were muslim contries, so its really not that black and white.

Quote:
Another example was the UN convention against racism where an idea about a convention against racism and bigotry was hijacked by some of the world's most obscene anti-Semites ... trying to enshrine in UN docs stuff like the Jewish world conspiracy and defining Israel as an Apartheid state ... NO country apart from the US stood by Israel's side and pointed this travesty out - NO ONE ! , where was that famous scandinavian or European sense of justice then ?
The conferance really wasn't that bad, and non of the statements you refer to would ever have made it into the final document. Leaving the conference liek that only made things worse. The US and Isreal on their high horse, refusing to even hear the critisism of their policies.

Quote:
As for the US I really don't know what you are talking about ... The US is the single largest contributor of funds to the UN ( despite its debts..) its always tried to uphold sensible issues and rejected rubbish ones that go against its interests .. whats wrong with that ?
Whats wrong with it that the UN should really be the force behind pushing the UN forward as the main tool in international cooperation and law, like the declaration for childrens rights, but instead it seems that the US is happy just
using the UN when they have their own specific political agenda.

Quote:
The US spends the most resources in the world on Peace keeping missions and is actively involved in trying to mediate dozens of conflicts around the globe. Its one of the biggest contributors of funds to refugees and poor third world countries.
Where do you get this number? is it compared to population and GNP?

Quote:
That whole rhetoric ( which has become so frighteningly popular of late) of bashing the US in every opportunity and blaming it for every single problem out there is personally making me sick. so many countries owe the US their freedom and hope (including much of Europe) and the US by far has the most positive overall influence in the world. off course it makes lots of mistakes and causes **** loads of grief as well, but Europe does just as much crap and isn't even half as helpful as the US is.
Fair enough New, I accept and respect you for expecting higher standards from Israel or the US but you have to stay sensible and try not to loose sight of reason.... even when being critical......
I'm not bashing the US, I'm just saying i'd love to see some more international engagement that isn't purely about protecting US security and interests. I'd love to see some real visions for international democratization. Not just critisism of the "poor" dictators with no oil...

Bill Bradley to comedian Bill Cosby: "Bill, you are a comic, tell us a joke!"- "Senator, you are a politician, first tell us a lie!"

[quote]Originally posted by New:
<strong>
Well Israels disregard for the UN should be pretty obvious. To Israel the UN seems to play the same role as the two old guys on the balcony in Muppet show.
When it comes to the US I'll give you a couple of examples:
- This might suprise you, but the US on of the few western countries who still havn't ratified the UN declaration on childrens rights.
-The US has also refused to recognize the international tribunal against war criminals. (what way is that to fight terrorism?).
- No country in the world ows the UN more money than the US (put this improved a lot just after 9/11).</strong><hr></blockquote>

Ah. Good. I knew you would bring up this type of stuff. It prove you don't have a basic understanding of what you're saying. All of these things could undermine the credibility of the US and Israel. NOT the credibility of the UN. If the UN can't force Israel to do something it's not Israel's fault. It's the UNs. If the US does not ratify something it's not the UNs fault. Get it? If not stop posting.

[quote]Originally posted by New:
<strong>[b]...Leaving the conference liek that only made things worse...</strong><hr></blockquote>

Boy? You blame Israel for everything don't you? Israel is supposed to stand there and eat **** so you can feel better about calling them racist while ignoring 100% completly the terrorist nations that want to recreate the holocaust in modern day Israel.

[quote]Originally posted by New:
<strong>[b]Quote:
That whole rhetoric ( which has become so frighteningly popular of late) of bashing the US in every opportunity and blaming it for every single problem out there is personally making me sick. so many countries owe the US their freedom and hope (including much of Europe) and the US by far has the most positive overall influence in the world. off course it makes lots of mistakes and causes **** loads of grief as well, but Europe does just as much crap and isn't even half as helpful as the US is.
Fair enough New, I accept and respect you for expecting higher standards from Israel or the US but you have to stay sensible and try not to loose sight of reason.... even when being critical......</strong>
I'm not bashing the US, I'm just saying i'd love to see some more international engagement that isn't purely about protecting US security and interests. I'd love to see some real visions for international democratization. Not just critisism of the "poor" dictators with no oil...<hr></blockquote>

I would love to see some real vision for international democratization from Europe, Russia and the rest of UN members (not to mention middle eastern states) , i would like to see engagement by European nations in the middle east which is not based on narrow interests but is based on real justice and a fair solution to the historical problems of all sides. And I would love to see Europe live up to the standards they keep demanding from the US and Israel and stop kissing up to rich oil Arab interests and show some real leadership.

Instead of wasting everyone's time Europeans can start actualy thinking how they can make things better instead of simply criticizing the US forever...

Once all this will happen the UN will start to actually mean something.