First, let's pretend Salvation is not canon so we don't have to follow it up. It wasn't a bad movie, it was just a stupid story.

Fans of the Terminator franchise have been wanting to see a full-length feature film based on the gritty, nightmarish future scenes of the first film for 25 and what did Salvation do? Not an out and out military struggle under the cover of night against uncompromising machines intent on wiping out all humanity, but a sunny daylight soap opera jaunt by a confused android looking for his place in the world. The machine who learns to love humanity. The machine who doesn't know he's a machine. As if we didn't get enough of this "are they human?" tripe from BSG, now we have cylons in the farking Terminator Universe.

And the way it played out was dumb, hokey, cliched, and obvious, and an insult to the intelligence of any Sci-Fi fan. If I wanted introspective replicant bullshiat, I'd go watch Bladerunner.

fark you, McG.

Okay, so next film is a WAR FILM. A REAL gritty war film, with Private Ryan/Band of Brothers direction and cinematography. Set in the future that we are familiar with: Colonies of human stragglers gasping for survival, night raids, big hulking HKs, and phase plasma rifles in the 40 watt range. Straight forward plot about a campaign/mission (either led by John Connor, or ordered by him) to infiltrate a T-800 factory and priority 1: Capture it, cut it off from skynet and reprogram its hardware for the war effort and if that's not possible, priority 2: Destroy it, thereby eliminating any presence of Skynet in the area and earning the humans a little piece of real estate to rebuild their civilization (for awhile). That's it. No wishy washy bullshiat, no human interest drama, no more "machines trying to understand humanity", and no human personifications of skynet. It's a computer, it has mathematically calculated humanity's termination -- it does not require a rosy rationale for its decision.

Now, someone dig up the corpse of Steven Ambrose and let's make this happen.

Cythraul:Pocket Ninja: I have carefully constructed a mental world in which there is only one Terminator movie, the first one, and all of the others never happened.

Oh come on. I liked Terminator 2.

Seriously, it was pretty good. It got stupid after that, though honestly I never did watch the fourth one. But come on, how many times can you rewrite history while making sure it still happens? At least when ST time travels, they make a point to reset everything by the end of the episode or firmly establish a new universe. All Terminator has established is that there is no such thing as free will because the future is inevitable.

First, let's pretend Salvation is not canon so we don't have to follow it up. It wasn't a bad movie, it was just a stupid story.

Fans of the Terminator franchise have been wanting to see a full-length feature film based on the gritty, nightmarish future scenes of the first film for 25 and what did Salvation do? Not an out and out military struggle under the cover of night against uncompromising machines intent on wiping out all humanity, but a sunny daylight soap opera jaunt by a confused android looking for his place in the world. The machine who learns to love humanity. The machine who doesn't know he's a machine. As if we didn't get enough of this "are they human?" tripe from BSG, now we have cylons in the farking Terminator Universe.

And the way it played out was dumb, hokey, cliched, and obvious, and an insult to the intelligence of any Sci-Fi fan. If I wanted introspective replicant bullshiat, I'd go watch Bladerunner.

fark you, McG.

Okay, so next film is a WAR FILM. A REAL gritty war film, with Private Ryan/Band of Brothers direction and cinematography. Set in the future that we are familiar with: Colonies of human stragglers gasping for survival, night raids, big hulking HKs, and phase plasma rifles in the 40 watt range. Straight forward plot about a campaign/mission (either led by John Connor, or ordered by him) to infiltrate a T-800 factory and priority 1: Capture it, cut it off from skynet and reprogram its hardware for the war effort and if that's not possible, priority 2: Destroy it, thereby eliminating any presence of Skynet in the area and earning the humans a little piece of real estate to rebuild their civilization (for awhile). That's it. No wishy washy bullshiat, no human interest drama, no more "machines trying to understand humanity", and no human personifications of skynet. It's a computer, it has mathematically calculated humanity's termination -- it does not require a rosy rationale for its de ...

Terminator 2's entire premise violated the one main rule that the story had set up in the first movie regarding time travel. I can forgive a certain degree of laziness and shortcutting in a movie on the part of its writers, but past a certain point it becomes unacceptable.

No, when Reese explained that only living tissue could travel back through time. Which was why he not only arrived naked but also had no effective weapons with which to fight the terminator. Because, hey, if he'd been able to bring back real weapons, that would have been a pretty boring movie, right? Lie in ambush, wait for the terminator to appear, ZAM! Ray gun, arnold's disintegrated. They even spent time explaining why the Terminator was able to go back...because, yes, he was a machine, but he was encased in living flesh. Which means that Reese could have brought back weapons if they'd been inserted into him, but whatever.

But then what do they go and send through time in Terminator 2? A farking robot made of liquid metal. Liquid farking metal. Yeah.

No, when Reese explained that only living tissue could travel back through time. Which was why he not only arrived naked but also had no effective weapons with which to fight the terminator. Because, hey, if he'd been able to bring back real weapons, that would have been a pretty boring movie, right? Lie in ambush, wait for the terminator to appear, ZAM! Ray gun, arnold's disintegrated. They even spent time explaining why the Terminator was able to go back...because, yes, he was a machine, but he was encased in living flesh. Which means that Reese could have brought back weapons if they'd been inserted into him, but whatever.

But then what do they go and send through time in Terminator 2? A farking robot made of liquid metal. Liquid farking metal. Yeah.

If we are going to get all nit picky they would of just sent the terminator back to the 1800's and let him squash john's great great great grandpa with his bare hands in some cabin in the woods somewhere.

Not much of a plot hole. So they thought they destroyed the only time displacement equipment in existence. Skynet built another.

Perhaps it's that only living tissue, or metal surrounded by living tissue, could be sent through, and the T-1000 was made of "liquid metal". This could be back-rationalized by having the T-1000 come through with a living skin that is either shed or just absorbed. All you need is a coating of living material. But if that works, you could surgically plant advanced weapons inside a living organism, and just kill it.

No, when Reese explained that only living tissue could travel back through time. Which was why he not only arrived naked but also had no effective weapons with which to fight the terminator. Because, hey, if he'd been able to bring back real weapons, that would have been a pretty boring movie, right? Lie in ambush, wait for the terminator to appear, ZAM! Ray gun, arnold's disintegrated. They even spent time explaining why the Terminator was able to go back...because, yes, he was a machine, but he was encased in living flesh. Which means that Reese could have brought back weapons if they'd been inserted into him, but whatever.

But then what do they go and send through time in Terminator 2? A farking robot made of liquid metal. Liquid farking metal. Yeah.

Because when it comes to time travel, there can be no further technological development.

NickelP:If we are going to get all nit picky they would of just sent the terminator back to the 1800's and let him squash john's great great great grandpa with his bare hands in some cabin in the woods somewhere.

Well, yeah. But I'm willing to ignore many logic flaws for an entertaining time-travel movie. You have to or they all become stupid at some level. But when the story creators establish a bright-line rule for their story world, then damnit, they need to follow it.

Pocket Ninja:No, when Reese explained that only living tissue could travel back through time. Which was why he not only arrived naked but also had no effective weapons with which to fight the terminator. Because, hey, if he'd been able to bring back real weapons, that would have been a pretty boring movie, right? Lie in ambush, wait for the terminator to appear, ZAM! Ray gun, arnold's disintegrated. They even spent time explaining why the Terminator was able to go back...because, yes, he was a machine, but he was encased in living flesh. Which means that Reese could have brought back weapons if they'd been inserted into him, but whatever.

But then what do they go and send through time in Terminator 2? A farking robot made of liquid metal. Liquid farking metal. Yeah.

Details are hazy on how exactly the time displacement equipment works, but given the massive amounts of static charge generated by the field at the destination point, I would imagine that it involves surrounding the object with intense electro-magnetic fields which, as we all know, is hazardous to circuitry and anything electronic and/or metal. So the only way a Terminator could go would be completely incased in something non-metallic. But then why no clothing, which EM fields would have no affect on either? ....not sure.

Reese is no scientist so doesn't know how it works ("I didn't built the thing"), so his summation that "nothing dead will go" might not be accurate. It's not that nothing dead will go, it's that nothing non-biological will go (after all, your hair and the surface area of your skin is technically dead). There are all sorts of ways around this plothole, it's not that aggravating.

Now, as for the T-1000: Well, since mimetic pollyalloy doesn't exist, it can be anything the plot wants it to be, and if it can mimic living tissue or do something to protect the T-1000 circuitry from the EM field then what's the issue?

Arnold: "John Kahner...why....*gasp*....why are you running so fahst?"John: "He's coming! We've got to move!"Arnold: "*gasp*...what was dat, 50 yards? Does anyone have some oxygen?"John: "Get up! We've got to keep moving!"Arnold: "Hold on...hold on....*gasp*...is my makeup smearing?"John: "What?"Arnold: "LOOK AT ME! Does my makeup look runny? I feel like it's runny."John: "I command you to run."Arnold: "Dat doesn't work anymore. Your wife is in charge. She says she wants you to do the dishes more in the future."John: "Maybe we should have gotten Robert Patrick to come back for this one."Arnold: "I heard dat."John: "Here, load these grenades."Arnold: "Agh. Dat hurts! My hands are so sore from signing my new book, Total Recall."John: "What? Hurry up load this. I can't hold him off any longer."Arnold: "Have you read it?"John: "Read what?"Arnold: "Total Recall. It's about how I cheated on my wife. You should read it."

Arnold: "John Kahner...why....*gasp*....why are you running so fahst?"John: "He's coming! We've got to move!"Arnold: "*gasp*...what was dat, 50 yards? Does anyone have some oxygen?"John: "Get up! We've got to keep moving!"Arnold: "Hold on...hold on....*gasp*...is my makeup smearing?"John: "What?"Arnold: "LOOK AT ME! Does my makeup look runny? I feel like it's runny."John: "I command you to run."Arnold: "Dat doesn't work anymore. Your wife is in charge. She says she wants you to do the dishes more in the future."John: "Maybe we should have gotten Robert Patrick to come back for this one."Arnold: "I heard dat."John: "Here, load these grenades."Arnold: "Agh. Dat hurts! My hands are so sore from signing my new book, Total Recall."John: "What? Hurry up load this. I can't hold him off any longer."Arnold: "Have you read it?"John: "Read what?"Arnold: "Total Recall. It's about how I cheated on my wife. You should read it."

They should remake kindergarten cop where he finds out at the end that they are all his kids

Arnold: "John Kahner...why....*gasp*....why are you running so fahst?"John: "He's coming! We've got to move!"Arnold: "*gasp*...what was dat, 50 yards? Does anyone have some oxygen?"John: "Get up! We've got to keep moving!"Arnold: "Hold on...hold on....*gasp*...is my makeup smearing?"John: "What?"Arnold: "LOOK AT ME! Does my makeup look runny? I feel like it's runny."John: "I command you to run."Arnold: "Dat doesn't work anymore. Your wife is in charge. She says she wants you to do the dishes more in the future."John: "Maybe we should have gotten Robert Patrick to come back for this one."Arnold: "I heard dat."John: "Here, load these grenades."Arnold: "Agh. Dat hurts! My hands are so sore from signing my new book, Total Recall."John: "What? Hurry up load this. I can't hold him off any longer."Arnold: "Have you read it?"John: "Read what?"Arnold: "Total Recall. It's about how I cheated on my wife. You should read it."

They should remake kindergarten cop where he finds out at the end that they are all his kids

Hiding from the cold, I watched T2 last night and was struck by how awful it was. The Disney-fication effect of the 90's was in full play, fark the story make some cool effects and sell it. I am afraid I am going to need to move in Pocket Ninja's world where there was only the one movie.

Now, if they wanted to reboot the movie and do it right...I would go see that movie. Though, I am hard pressed to think of an actress as hot/kick ass awesome as Linda Hamilton for the lead.

No, when Reese explained that only living tissue could travel back through time. Which was why he not only arrived naked but also had no effective weapons with which to fight the terminator. Because, hey, if he'd been able to bring back real weapons, that would have been a pretty boring movie, right? Lie in ambush, wait for the terminator to appear, ZAM! Ray gun, arnold's disintegrated. They even spent time explaining why the Terminator was able to go back...because, yes, he was a machine, but he was encased in living flesh. Which means that Reese could have brought back weapons if they'd been inserted into him, but whatever.

But then what do they go and send through time in Terminator 2? A farking robot made of liquid metal. Liquid farking metal. Yeah.

If we are going to get all nit picky they would of just sent the terminator back to the 1800's and let him squash john's great great great grandpa with his bare hands in some cabin in the woods somewhere.

If you've got a time machine, why don't you just go back and kill him when he's sitting on the crapper or something?

Pocket Ninja:Terminator 2's entire premise violated the one main rule that the story had set up in the first movie regarding time travel. I can forgive a certain degree of laziness and shortcutting in a movie on the part of its writers, but past a certain point it becomes unacceptable.

But Terminator 2 had that Guns N Roses song, which was pretty cool at the time.

No, when Reese explained that only living tissue could travel back through time. Which was why he not only arrived naked but also had no effective weapons with which to fight the terminator. Because, hey, if he'd been able to bring back real weapons, that would have been a pretty boring movie, right? Lie in ambush, wait for the terminator to appear, ZAM! Ray gun, arnold's disintegrated. They even spent time explaining why the Terminator was able to go back...because, yes, he was a machine, but he was encased in living flesh. Which means that Reese could have brought back weapons if they'd been inserted into him, but whatever.

But then what do they go and send through time in Terminator 2? A farking robot made of liquid metal. Liquid farking metal. Yeah.

If we are going to get all nit picky they would of just sent the terminator back to the 1800's and let him squash john's great great great grandpa with his bare hands in some cabin in the woods somewhere.

Reese had a line about, "most of the records were destroyed in the war," and SkyNet could only narrow it down to a Sarah Connor living in L.A. They didn't even know her middle name, hence the T-800 being the "phonebook killer" in the first film.

Sgt Otter:Reese had a line about, "most of the records were destroyed in the war," and SkyNet could only narrow it down to a Sarah Connor living in L.A. They didn't even know her middle name, hence the T-800 being the "phonebook killer" in the first film.

I like how this plot point was handled in the sequels: Sarah and John deliberately living off the grid so as to leave as little digital trace as possible. That's why Skynet, despite being a sentient futuristic Google, had problems finding her.

No, when Reese explained that only living tissue could travel back through time. Which was why he not only arrived naked but also had no effective weapons with which to fight the terminator. Because, hey, if he'd been able to bring back real weapons, that would have been a pretty boring movie, right? Lie in ambush, wait for the terminator to appear, ZAM! Ray gun, arnold's disintegrated. They even spent time explaining why the Terminator was able to go back...because, yes, he was a machine, but he was encased in living flesh. Which means that Reese could have brought back weapons if they'd been inserted into him, but whatever.

But then what do they go and send through time in Terminator 2? A farking robot made of liquid metal. Liquid farking metal. Yeah.

If we are going to get all nit picky they would of just sent the terminator back to the 1800's and let him squash john's great great great grandpa with his bare hands in some cabin in the woods somewhere.

...and right before the Terminator catches them, Marty McFly and Doc Brown appear in the Delorian and crash into the Terminator. John's ancestors escape and continue the bloodline.

No, when Reese explained that only living tissue could travel back through time. Which was why he not only arrived naked but also had no effective weapons with which to fight the terminator. Because, hey, if he'd been able to bring back real weapons, that would have been a pretty boring movie, right? Lie in ambush, wait for the terminator to appear, ZAM! Ray gun, arnold's disintegrated. They even spent time explaining why the Terminator was able to go back...because, yes, he was a machine, but he was encased in living flesh. Which means that Reese could have brought back weapons if they'd been inserted into him, but whatever.

But then what do they go and send through time in Terminator 2? A farking robot made of liquid metal. Liquid farking metal. Yeah.

If we are going to get all nit picky they would of just sent the terminator back to the 1800's and let him squash john's great great great grandpa with his bare hands in some cabin in the woods somewhere.

...and right before the Terminator catches them, Marty McFly and Doc Brown appear in the Delorian and crash into the Terminator. John's ancestors escape and continue the bloodline.

If he's in it, he should be the aging bodybuilder the terminators were modeled on. Not a terminator himself. He could be racked with guilt and living as a hermit because anyone who sees him freaks out in terror.

Also, plastic Arnold from Salvation was silly looking.

But they'll probably defeat Skynet by teaching it the power of Love or something.

I want to see the T-One Million from the Universal Studios T-3D adventure. That thing was cool. They should redo some of that experience in video form. It was a really well-done theater show. The premise was that you were part of a tour group of investors, visiting Cyberdyne systems for an early prototype Terminator demo, when suddenly John and Sarah Connor attack. The T-1000 shows up, and then the T-800 shows up to fight him. They do a big stage battle, and then go into the future for a 45-minute 3D action fest culminating in a GIGANTIC fight against a liquid metal guardian the size of a building.

It probably won't stand up too well without the 3D, but I've always thought it was awesome. Saw it almost 15 years ago,k so it's probably just nostalgia.

NickelP:Anyways the biggest plot hole of the entire franchise is how the hell the terminator was designed off the remains of the one sent back in time. They definitely divided by 0 on that one.

The deleted scene from T3 - the only watchable scene from that movie - goes into great detail. A loudmouth Texan General (Arnie, with overdubbed voice) in a promotional video for SkyNet, starts talking up the new T-100s, designed, of course, to look like Texan General.

No, when Reese explained that only living tissue could travel back through time. Which was why he not only arrived naked but also had no effective weapons with which to fight the terminator. Because, hey, if he'd been able to bring back real weapons, that would have been a pretty boring movie, right? Lie in ambush, wait for the terminator to appear, ZAM! Ray gun, arnold's disintegrated. They even spent time explaining why the Terminator was able to go back...because, yes, he was a machine, but he was encased in living flesh. Which means that Reese could have brought back weapons if they'd been inserted into him, but whatever.

But then what do they go and send through time in Terminator 2? A farking robot made of liquid metal. Liquid farking metal. Yeah.

If we are going to get all nit picky they would of just sent the terminator back to the 1800's and let him squash john's great great great grandpa with his bare hands in some cabin in the woods somewhere.

It would make sense from a butterfly effect perspective not to go any further back in time than absolutely necessary. I could probably go back in time to kill someone that was alive at the same time as my mother father and with a little research be reasonably certain that that particular individual had never crossed paths with them or had any real effect on their lives. But the further I go back in time, the more likely I'm going to kill someone whose premature death subtly alters the timeline enough that the particular circumstances of my birth never occur.

-The T1000 was the first terminator to go back in time. Skynet knew more details about John Connors whereabouts in the 1990s than it did about Sarah's in the 1980s. So it first sent it's one and only T1000 back in time to the 1990s to kill John Connor because logically it would have a greater chance of killing him. The T800 because it was an inferior model to the T1000 was sent to the 1980s and the details of Sarah's life at that time aren't that well known to Skynet.

-Arnold/T800 had other missions other than to kill Sara Connor. He was to set certain things in motion: he mets a genius computer science grad student and tells him about ideas and theories that later develop into Cyberdyne systems.

-More than Reese went back in time and other humans had their own missions just like in the Sarah Connor chronicles. There's a cut scene in the first Terminator that shows a second guy teleoporting back intime but he teleported into a brick wall or something. Supposedly they cut it because the guy had a spoiler line like, "It was you Reese...you're the one...save her!"

-Skynet has a core conscious and maybe realizes that eliminating all humans was a mistake

-Skynet downloaded itself into a T800, when back in time to live with humans and maybe tries to help humanity.

-Arnold is not just some special forces soldier that Skynet used as a model for the T800 but is an important person in John Connor's future. John mets the real life Arnold later in his life and this guy is important somehow to the defeat of Skynet.

Yeah, let's get back to teh gritty night scenes of humans fighting in the rubble of once great cities.

The dude should let it go unless T5 is to be a self deprecating comedy featuring him and Danny Devito as mismatched psychotic cyborg killer twins on the hunt for Sarah Connor played by Emma Thompson...I'd watch that...

Gordinho:The dude should let it go unless T5 is to be a self deprecating comedy featuring him and Danny Devito as mismatched psychotic cyborg killer twins on the hunt for Sarah Connor played by Emma Thompson...I'd watch that...

It could feature the T16, a robotic version of Frank from It's Always Sunny in Philadelphia.

No, when Reese explained that only living tissue could travel back through time. Which was why he not only arrived naked but also had no effective weapons with which to fight the terminator. Because, hey, if he'd been able to bring back real weapons, that would have been a pretty boring movie, right? Lie in ambush, wait for the terminator to appear, ZAM! Ray gun, arnold's disintegrated. They even spent time explaining why the Terminator was able to go back...because, yes, he was a machine, but he was encased in living flesh. Which means that Reese could have brought back weapons if they'd been inserted into him, but whatever.

But then what do they go and send through time in Terminator 2? A farking robot made of liquid metal. Liquid farking metal. Yeah.

If we are going to get all nit picky they would of just sent the terminator back to the 1800's and let him squash john's great great great grandpa with his bare hands in some cabin in the woods somewhere.

...and right before the Terminator catches them, Marty McFly and Doc Brown appear in the Delorian and crash into the Terminator. John's ancestors escape and continue the bloodline.

And then the TARDIS lands on top of the Delorean, the Doctor pops out, and reprograms the Terminator with his Sonic Screwdriver to think it's a tapdancing Ood.

NickelP:Anyways the biggest plot hole of the entire franchise is how the hell the terminator was designed off the remains of the one sent back in time. They definitely divided by 0 on that one.

Well that is like complaining about how John Connor fights the machines and sends back Reese to be his own father in the past. SkyNet could have be created without the technology from the terminator in a first run through of that time period, design the terminator, send it back and now you have that knowledge which makes changes to SkyNet (relative to the first cycle) that makes SkyNet's takeover and genocide easier/faster.

Equally you can see a series of time loops where someone other than John Connor (who wouldn't exist before the time machine is used) manages to take over the time machine facility and send Reese back into the past to try to stop SkyNet before it is created, where he meets up with Sarah Connor, gives her knowledge so she can plan for the future, and indeed they have a kid together that is trained before Skynet even exists to be able to fight against it and know its plans, methods and weapons even before they have been developed, which means now John Connor is the leader that takes over the time machine and then sends Reese back, etc. Or there could be hundreds of cycles slowly changing the course of events in the affected time window and afterwards that might never stabilize to a "final" reality as every run through is different because it ends up with different things happening in the lead up to the time travel which then affects who goes through, or what they are like, or what their goals are, or what date/time they go back to, etc. The paradox would then only be what happens if events change enough so the time machine is never created by SkyNet in the first place (because it is defeated too quickly maybe).

We've divided by 'Hipster Zero' here folks. Terminator 2 is out of favour now!? What's next? Raiders of the Lost Ark? Gremlins? Predator? I swear if I hear a bad word about Goonies, it's go time hipsters!

xria:NickelP: Anyways the biggest plot hole of the entire franchise is how the hell the terminator was designed off the remains of the one sent back in time. They definitely divided by 0 on that one.

Well that is like complaining about how John Connor fights the machines and sends back Reese to be his own father in the past. SkyNet could have be created without the technology from the terminator in a first run through of that time period, design the terminator, send it back and now you have that knowledge which makes changes to SkyNet (relative to the first cycle) that makes SkyNet's takeover and genocide easier/faster.

Equally you can see a series of time loops where someone other than John Connor (who wouldn't exist before the time machine is used) manages to take over the time machine facility and send Reese back into the past to try to stop SkyNet before it is created, where he meets up with Sarah Connor, gives her knowledge so she can plan for the future, and indeed they have a kid together that is trained before Skynet even exists to be able to fight against it and know its plans, methods and weapons even before they have been developed, which means now John Connor is the leader that takes over the time machine and then sends Reese back, etc. Or there could be hundreds of cycles slowly changing the course of events in the affected time window and afterwards that might never stabilize to a "final" reality as every run through is different because it ends up with different things happening in the lead up to the time travel which then affects who goes through, or what they are like, or what their goals are, or what date/time they go back to, etc. The paradox would then only be what happens if events change enough so the time machine is never created by SkyNet in the first place (because it is defeated too quickly maybe).