I've learned that not all omegas can defeat a non omega, omega level mutants have levels of their own.

In general omega level mutants (OLM) have greater powers than lower level mutants, but within the OLM class are sublevels. In other words, not all OMLs are equivalent to each other, some are stronger and some are weaker.

I knew you would post after me. But I have to admit I was expecting an elaborate post about how I was totally wrong.

I think Torch can overpower, Iceman. He will go Super Nova on him and Bobby will get burned or evaporate. I do not think Bobby will be able to freeze Johnny he is just too hot.

"

I'm just asking for your reasoning as to why he would win.Sometimes putting the logical thoughts down on paper so to speak makes people look at their reasoning. This can lead them to reasiles they have made an error or to convince them they are correct.

So you're saying that Torch could achieve a short term win (like a KO) as he would have evapoated Bobby's body but that Bobby would reform afterwards to claim the long term win ?

iceman can exist in gaseous form and can reform, once human torch uses supernova, he will be exhausted and cannot flame on. After iceman reforms, human torch is as good as deadhuman torch probably achieves a short term win but bobby achieves a long term win"

I'm just asking for your reasoning as to why he would win.Sometimes putting the logical thoughts down on paper so to speak makes people look at their reasoning. This can lead them to reasiles they have made an error or to convince them they are correct.So you're saying that Torch could achieve a short term win (like a KO) as he would have evapoated Bobby's body but that Bobby would reform afterwards to claim the long term win ?"

It would not even get that far. Iceman can stop the heat exchange process from even happening. That is exactly how he trashed Sunfire. He not only prevented Sunfire from using flame powers, he also was able to slow him down for an easy beating.

iceman can exist in gaseous form and can reform, once human torch uses supernova, he will be exhausted and cannot flame on. After iceman reforms, human torch is as good as deadhuman torch probably achieves a short term win but bobby achieves a long term win"

I'm just asking for your reasoning as to why he would win.Sometimes putting the logical thoughts down on paper so to speak makes people look at their reasoning. This can lead them to reasiles they have made an error or to convince them they are correct.So you're saying that Torch could achieve a short term win (like a KO) as he would have evapoated Bobby's body but that Bobby would reform afterwards to claim the long term win ?"

It would not even get that far. Iceman can stop the heat exchange process from even happening. That is exactly how he trashed Sunfire. He not only prevented Sunfire from using flame powers, he also was able to slow him down for an easy beating. "

The point you made was also made in a previous thread with Iceman in it but I'm trying to see if some members of the Vine will actually get to the logical answer or research the combatants better.As a fellow Vine member (Forever) & friend once said, "Research is key".

iceman can exist in gaseous form and can reform, once human torch uses supernova, he will be exhausted and cannot flame on. After iceman reforms, human torch is as good as deadhuman torch probably achieves a short term win but bobby achieves a long term win"

I'm just asking for your reasoning as to why he would win.Sometimes putting the logical thoughts down on paper so to speak makes people look at their reasoning. This can lead them to reasiles they have made an error or to convince them they are correct.So you're saying that Torch could achieve a short term win (like a KO) as he would have evapoated Bobby's body but that Bobby would reform afterwards to claim the long term win ?"

It would not even get that far. Iceman can stop the heat exchange process from even happening. That is exactly how he trashed Sunfire. He not only prevented Sunfire from using flame powers, he also was able to slow him down for an easy beating. "

The point you made was also made in a previous thread with Iceman in it but I'm trying to see if some members of the Vine will actually get to the logical answer or research the combatants better.As a fellow Vine member (Forever) & friend once said, "Research is key"."

Lol. You give some people way too much credit Creator. You are too kind.

More or less a stalemate unless you go to the extremes. Sudden Coldsnap V Sudden Nova. I think Iceman is quicker on the draw. So he will murder Torch first. Torch is no slouch either. Going Nova will kill Iceman, Torch can hit temperatures where even water starts to catch fire as H2O becomes fuel, the temp gets too high the hydrogen and oxygen will separate into plasma. Iceman can not come back from that. Iceman would be incapacitated permanently

I meant to say that Iceman could defeat Human Torch through incapacitation.

"

No bambino. But nice try.

Assuming this fight starts with both fighters having equal notice, there's no way Iceman can incapitate Torch. The shear magnitude of energy manipulation available to each is hugely in Torch's favor (think of an arm wrestle match with both starting at the middle). By this I mean, the energy manipulation needed to reach the temperatures these characters can achieve:

Even at absolute zero, there still isn't a complete halt in energy flow. Meaning Torch can still bounce back. But the same can't be said about Iceman at 100 billion kelvins. I am not even sure if he'd be able to keep his atoms in line at this temperature to be able to reform.

Even at absolute zero, there still isn't a complete halt in energy flow.

Torch wouldn't be able to survive at that temperature."

He wouldn't need to. His energy manipulation would overwhelm Iceman's before it even got near absolute zero. That was the whole point.

Just look at the difference in temperatures they can reach. The rate of energy manipulation needed to reach to temperature Torch can reach in the time he does is a RATE thousands of times greater than Icemans.

"More or less a stalemate unless you go to the extremes. Sudden Coldsnap V Sudden Nova. I think Iceman is quicker on the draw. So he will murder Torch first. Torch is no slouch either. Going Nova will kill Iceman, Torch can hit temperatures where even water starts to catch fire as H2O becomes fuel, the temp gets too high the hydrogen and oxygen will separate into plasma. Iceman can not come back from that. Iceman would be incapacitated permanently"

Do you actually know any thing about how thermal energy reacts with the environment or what happens with thermal blast waves.......Stupid question.Obviously not.

I meant to say that Iceman could defeat Human Torch through incapacitation.

"

No bambino. But nice try.

Assuming this fight starts with both fighters having equal notice, there's no way Iceman can incapitate Torch. The shear magnitude of energy manipulation available to each is hugely in Torch's favor (think of an arm wrestle match with both starting at the middle). By this I mean, the energy manipulation needed to reach the temperatures these characters can achieve:

Even at absolute zero, there still isn't a complete halt in energy flow. Meaning Torch can still bounce back. But the same can't be said about Iceman at 100 billion kelvins. I am not even sure if he'd be able to keep his atoms in line at this temperature to be able to reform."

I love how you just completely ignore a statement that cripples your argument as if it never happened.

" Do you actually know any thing about how thermal energy reacts with the environment or what happens with thermal blast waves.......Stupid question.Obviously not."

Yes I studied physics, as High Revolutionary puts its temp 100 Bil, we're talking about temperatures that have never been seen before on Earth even with our most powerful experiments using atomic weapons. We know how Nova go from NASA Hubble photos, and stellar spectral emissions. First comes the super light then comes the blast shock. This radioactive outbursts radically changes the chemical composition changing molecules into plasma. Atoms are split apart, ionized, forced together or formed into new chemical elements. Infra red radiation travels a lot faster than a thermal blast wave. At 100 billion kelvin, chemicals go into a state of flux and matter itself stars to break down. Like I said Torch can hit temperatures where even water starts to catch fire as H2O becomes fuel, the temp gets too high the hydrogen and oxygen will separate into plasma..more food for thought. If its sudden death we're talking about I still think Iceman is quicker on the draw, he will cool to zero kelvin a lot sooner than Torch flames himself up to going Nova

He learned to do it only a short while ago and has not fought a fire wielder since. It does not matter though. The simple fact that he has shown the ability to do it with ease is good enough. That is not even a high showing of his power. And he said that he is even more powerful now then at that point.

"He learned to do it only a short while ago and has not fought a fire wielder since. It does not matter though. The simple fact that he has shown the ability to do it with ease is good enough. That is not even a high showing of his power."

1. Prove that Sunfires powers weren't artificial when Bobby pulled off that stunt. Because I believe it was.2. Show us a showing of his power that you'd consider high (for my own clarification).

The Marauders

Sunfire is shown as a member of the Marauders still in the form of Famine. Alongside Gambit, Sunfire attacks Cable, who destroys Providence. He subsequently attacks an escaping Cannonball and Iceman, but is taken down by Cannonball and is taken prisoner. Though Cannonball and Iceman consider interrogating Sunfire for information as to who he is working for, Cannonball decides against it, knowing that Sunfire would never confess. Instead, Iceman neutralizes Sunfire's artificial mutant abilities on a sub-atomic level using his own mutant abilities, while Cannonball fights him.

Sunfire is later held captive in the Blackbird and is rescued by his fellow Marauders.

I do not need to show that Sunfire's powers were artificial at that point because it does not matter. Whether they were artificial or not does not influence stopping a heat exchange process. You like to toss out irrelevant information on energy, why not simply look up what the heat exchange process is. If he has the ability to stop a heat exchange process, Torch has no chance. That means he can be heating up well past the numbers that you tossed out (if he had that ability) and Iceman can shut him straight down. He has even said that fire does not hurt him anymore. Period. He said it is not even difficult to avoid damage from it.

The Marauders

Sunfire is shown as a member of the Marauders still in the form of Famine. Alongside Gambit, Sunfire attacks Cable, who destroys Providence. He subsequently attacks an escaping Cannonball and Iceman, but is taken down by Cannonball and is taken prisoner. Though Cannonball and Iceman consider interrogating Sunfire for information as to who he is working for, Cannonball decides against it, knowing that Sunfire would never confess. Instead, Iceman neutralizes Sunfire's artificial mutant abilities on a sub-atomic level using his own mutant abilities, while Cannonball fights him.

Sunfire is later held captive in the Blackbird and is rescued by his fellow Marauders.

Sooo, according to that, I was right. You were wrong.

"

No. I already told you that it does not matter. You celebrated prematurely.

"I do not need to show that Sunfire's powers were artificial at that point because it does not matter. Whether they were artificial or not does not influence stopping a heat exchange process. You like to toss out irrelevant information on energy, why not simply look up what the heat exchange process is. If he has the ability to stop a heat exchange process, Torch has no chance. That means he can be heating up well past the numbers that you tossed out (if he had that ability) and Iceman can shut him straight down. He has even said that fire does not hurt him anymore. Period. He said it is not even difficult to avoid damage from it. "

If Iceman's only feat of stopping anyone with fire manipulation was in defeating someone who had artificial manipulation, then my argument is very relevant.

My info on energy is relevent because it can be proven scientifically. A fanboy's rant, with no scans, cannot be proven in any way.

So put up some scans so I can learn something from you, or admit that you are in violation of internet-fanboy-ranting laws.

"I do not need to show that Sunfire's powers were artificial at that point because it does not matter. Whether they were artificial or not does not influence stopping a heat exchange process. You like to toss out irrelevant information on energy, why not simply look up what the heat exchange process is. If he has the ability to stop a heat exchange process, Torch has no chance. That means he can be heating up well past the numbers that you tossed out (if he had that ability) and Iceman can shut him straight down. He has even said that fire does not hurt him anymore. Period. He said it is not even difficult to avoid damage from it. "

If Iceman's only feat of stopping anyone with fire manipulation was in defeating someone who had artificial manipulation, then my argument is very relevant.My info on energy is relevent because it can be proven scientifically. A fanboy's rant, with no scans, cannot be proven in any way.So put up some scans so I can learn something from you, or admit that you are in violation of internet-fanboy-ranting laws."

What is artificial about Sunfire's powers exactly? He does not need a suit to use them. They are now a part of him. His powers are now just as artificial as Torche's. Calling me a fanboy does nothing for you. I referenced the comics. If you need a scan, I would be happy to provide your simple mind with the graphic image. Your information on the temperature of spacial events does not matter in this thread. Human Torch has never shown the ability to survive in absolute zero. I think it is quite clear who the fanboy is. You are the one that said that Iceman cannot stop the heat exchange process on Torch because his powers are natural. Did you know that Torch's powers are not natural at all? How about that he is not a mutant? Hmmmm.... Someone's information is proving to be less and less relevant the more the topic is discussed.

"Torch doesn't need a suit. His powers are a part of him too." I love how you attempted to dissect my argument by taking things out of context. I already said that Torch's powers are not reliant on a suit. They are still just as artificial as Sunfire's.

"It does wonders for me.You have no idea." Why am I not surprised at your second statement. You prove my point for me.

"No you didn't. You claim you did. You have no outside sources to back you up as of right now. I asked for some, you failed to provide any." If you knew anything about Iceman, you would know that I have only referenced the comics this entire thread. That being said, it proves that you do not know anything about Iceman.

"Name calling? Sounds like something a person with a 'simple mind' would resort to..." Lol. Nice rebuttal with the name calling. I am not sure if you are intelligent to know this, but calling me a fanboy is name calling. So your insult towards me also impacts you.

"Yes it does. It's applicable in real life...It's only irrelavent if you can prove they are irrelevent by showing me something I can confirm. " As I have already stated numerous times, it is irrelevant to this discussion because you clearly do not know what the heat exchange process is. If Torch was able to become the absolute hottest thing in the universe, Iceman could still bring him down because he can stop the heat from even happening. It is simply debunked.

"Has Iceman proven that he can withstand Supernova?" He has already shown that heat does not affect him yes. Many times in fact.

"Yes erik. May god haver mercy on your soul." Lol.

"No. All I said is that because Iceman pulled off the cancellation of the heat exchange process on a Sunfire with artificial powers, doesn't mean he can do the same to Torch." You do not even know what you are really talking about do you? You just confirmed what I said concerning Torch and Sunfire. Torch's powers are just as artificial.

"ok." "Ok" Then your entire argument on that Iceman can only do it to Sunfire because his powers are not natural is debunked.... Again. Thank you for conceding.

"Shame on you." I have no idea what you are talking about concerning the shame. If the best argument you have is to try and rile me up then you should just admit defeat so you can get past the trolling.

"You just claimed you did. I have no idea if you did or not."Of course you have no idea if I have or not. You do not know anything about Iceman.

"I actually don't like Torch." Your fanboyism would prove otherwise. You are a rabid Torch fan.

"It's apparent that you are confused on more than on issue here..." It figures that you would fumble your own insult. Symbiote5 is that you?