In case you are interested, the spacing between the two poppy seeds suggests that the dough almost tripled in volume. No doubt the high hydration and the large amount of yeast caused the dough to ferment more quickly. By any chance did you note the time that you made the dough and the time you took it out of your cooling unit, or was the second photo showing the final spacing of the poppy seeds taken after the temper period?

Peter

Peter,

Thanks to you and the two Billís I do have another formulation I really like. Who would have thought that just Kyrol flour with more IDY and a higher hydration would make such a good pizza. The one good part it that is only was a one day cold ferment too. I think that is why it is fun to experiment, because I never know what will happen.

The dough was mixed about 10:00 AM on Monday and the final dough temperature was 75.0 degrees F. It then was put into my home fridge and cooled down and then was taken to market and was placed in my deli case until Tuesday. The ďTwo Billís dough ball was already tempered at room temperature for about 1 Ĺ hrs. when I took the spacing of the poppy seeds. The dough was then only left to temper in the steel pan for a little over an hour on top of the deck oven. It is warmer there and that is usually were I let doughs temper in pans.

Thanks for telling me that the spacing between the two poppy seeds suggest that the dough almost tripled in volume and it probably was from the high hydration and the large amount of yeast causing the dough to ferment more quickly.

I didnít take any picture of the dough and time it came out of the cooling unit. Should I do that for next week?

I think the formulation you set-forth for me is a keeper, and probably will replace my Sicilian pie I have been working on.

I didnít take any picture of the dough and time it came out of the cooling unit. Should I do that for next week?

Norma,

Yes, I would suggest that you do that. That way, you will be able to modify the amount of yeast should you decide at some point to use a longer or shorter fermentation window. Likewise if you want to use a different fermentation temperature.

Yes, I would suggest that you do that. That way, you will be able to modify the amount of yeast should you decide at some point to use a longer or shorter fermentation window. Likewise if you want to use a different fermentation temperature.

Peter

Peter,

I can understand why it would be important to do that. I will take another picture this coming week of the spacing of the poppy seeds when the dough ball comes out of the cooling unit.

Since you mentioned that Trenton Bill told you that the recipe he recommended to you came from the Buddy's thread, I decided to see if I could find it. I could not. However, it is possible that Trenton Bill's recipe is a composite of several recipes and ideas from the Buddy's thread. For example, the most popular Buddy's clone dough recipe on the Buddy's thread is the one by PizzaHog at Reply 199 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,3783.msg92963.html#msg92963. Like PizzaHog's recipe, Trenton Bill also uses only flour, water, yeast and salt. Trenton Bill's thickness factor is slightly less than what PizzaHog uses but it is only slightly different. Trenton Bill decided to make a round pizza instead of a rectangular one but there have been other members who have also made round clones of the Buddy's pizzas. One place where Trenton Bill seems to have departed most notably from the Buddy's clone dough recipes on the Buddy's thread is that he uses a lower hydration value, 71%. However, I found an old post of mine at Reply 318 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,3783.msg136795.html#msg136795 where I suggested in the last paragraph that a hydration value of around 70% be used for a Buddy's clone. I came to that value based on my research on the Jet's dough recipe where I concluded that a hydration value of greater than 70% would be too high for a commercial operation, especially one where young workers of low skill levels might be assigned the tasks of making the dough and panning the dough balls to make pizzas. You will also note that in Reply 318 referenced above I suggested a value for the IDY of 0.60%. That is the value that Trenton Bill uses.

I think that what you and Trenton Bill have done is to make clones of the Buddy's pizzas. It's even possible that your Buddy's clones are closer to the real thing than what has been posted by others on the Buddy's thread. I say this because of the lower hydration value as mentioned above. Unfortunately, we have never been able to get enough information on the real Buddy's pizzas or the Buddy's dough to be able to say one way or the other. I have been waiting for someone to get a typical Buddy's dough ball and weigh it for us to see if our dough formulations are even close from a dough weight standpoint.

Maybe sometime you can ask Trenton Bill where he found his recipe or how he cobbled together various ideas to come up with his recipe. But, in the meantime, I have decided to move this thread to the Sicilian Style board. You might even want to reference this thread at the Buddy's thread in case our members who are intimately familiar with the Buddy's pizzas want to attempt your modified recipe to see if it is close to the real thing. Of course, they will have to discount the fact that you and Trenton Bill used San Marzano tomatoes instead of the Stanislaus-type tomatoes that Buddy's apparently uses.

Since you mentioned that Trenton Bill told you that the recipe he recommended to you came from the Buddy's thread, I decided to see if I could find it. I could not. However, it is possible that Trenton Bill's recipe is a composite of several recipes and ideas from the Buddy's thread. For example, the most popular Buddy's clone dough recipe on the Buddy's thread is the one by PizzaHog at Reply 199 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,3783.msg92963.html#msg92963. Like PizzaHog's recipe, Trenton Bill also uses only flour, water, yeast and salt. Trenton Bill's thickness factor is slightly less than what Pizzahog uses but it is only slightly different. Trenton Bill decided to make a round pizza instead of a rectangular one but there have been other members who have also made round clones of the Buddy's pizzas. One place where Trenton Bill seems to have departed most notably from the Buddy's clone dough recipes on the Buddy's thread is that he uses a lower hydration value, 71%. However, I found an old post of mine at Reply 318 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,3783.msg136795.html#msg136795 where I suggested in the last paragraph that a hydration value of around 70% be used for a Buddy's clone. I came to that value based on my research on the Jet's dough recipe where I concluded that a hydration value of greater than 70% would be too high for a commercial operation, especially one where young workers of low skill levels might be assigned the tasks of making the dough and panning the dough balls to make pizzas. You will also note that in Reply 318 referenced above I suggested a value for the IDY of 0.60%. That is the value that Trenton Bill uses.

I think that what you and Trenton Bill have done is to make clones of the Buddy's pizzas. It's even possible that your Buddy's clones are closer to the real thing than what has been posted by others on the Buddy's thread. I say this because of the lower hydration value as mentioned above. Unfortunately, we have never been able to get enough information on the real Buddy's pizzas or the Buddy's dough to be able to say one way or the other. I have been waiting for someone to get a typical Buddy's dough ball and weigh it for us to see if our dough formulations are even close from a dough weight standpoint.

Maybe sometime you can ask Trenton Bill where he found his recipe or how he cobbled together various ideas to come up with his recipe. But, in the meantime, I have decided to move this thread to the Sicilian Style board. You might even want to reference this thread at the Buddy's thread in case our members who are intimately familiar with the Buddy's pizzas want to attempt your modified recipe to see if it is close to the real thing. Of course, they will have to discount the fact that you and Trenton Bill used San Marzano tomatoes instead of the Stanislaus-type tomatoes that Buddy's apparently uses.

Peter

Peter,

I am glad I wasnít the only one that couldnít find the recipe Trenton Bill told me about. I did ask him what Reply number it was, but he couldnít give me that information and only said he found it on the Buddyís/Shield thread.

I have seen PizzaHogís recipes and had thought about trying that different times, but never got around to trying his recipe at Reply 199.

I didnít notice what you had posted in Reply 318. Maybe Trenton Bill used your ideas, but I sure donít know. I will ask Trenton Bill though.

It is interesting to know that you might think what Trenton Bill and I have done is maybe make clones of Buddyís pizza. I hope someday someone can purchase a typical Buddyís dough ball and weigh it for us to see if our dough formulations are even close from a dough weight standpoint.

Do you think I should make a thicker version of the formulation you set-forth for next week? If you do, what TF do you suggest and should I just bake in my small 8Ēx10Ē steel pan?

I can post a link to this thread to the Buddyís thread and maybe someone might try it eventually to see if it is anything like a BuddyĎs pizza. I guess I will need brick cheese next and also apply the sauce differently. I have to read over that whole thread again, because I canít recall everything that is posted there.

PizzaHog posted in Reply 63 that if he understood the math correctly the recipe in volume measurements for the water would be about 90% hydration, but I donít think that is correct, although I donít know.

Trenton Bill told me he weighed out the flour and water from Pizza Hogís recipe and then gave me the numbers I used in my first attempt for a Sicilian pizza. The IDY and salt are the same amount as Trenton Bill had given me.

Trenton Bill never ate a Buddyís pizza just like I havenít, but Trenton Bill really liked PizzaHogís recipe.

Do you think I should make a thicker version of the formulation you set-forth for next week? If you do, what TF do you suggest and should I just bake in my small 8Ēx10Ē steel pan?

Norma,

I don't see any need to change the thickness factor value at this point. The thickness factor values we have seen thus far are experimental values anyway.

The 8" x 10" pan size is one of the pan sizes that Buddy's uses. If you wish, you can use the last dough formulation you used and modify it for the 8"x10" pan size by using the expanded dough calculating tool.

PizzaHog posted in Reply 63 that if he understood the math correctly the recipe in volume measurements for the water would be about 90% hydration, but I donít think that is correct, although I donít know.

Trenton Bill told me he weighed out the flour and water from Pizza Hogís recipe and then gave me the numbers I used in my first attempt for a Sicilian pizza. The IDY and salt are the same amount as Trenton Bill had given me.

Trenton Bill never ate a Buddyís pizza just like I havenít, but Trenton Bill really liked PizzaHogís recipe.

Norma

Norma,

I had seen PizzaHog's dough formulation at Reply 63 but calculated that the hydration value was around 92.4%. The entire formulation looks like the following:

I guess either Trenton Billsís math is like mine, or somehow when he measured the recipe out from PizzaHog there might have been a mistake in weighing. Anyway, your interpreting of what we did make a great pizza.

Maybe you can also read minds, in addition to all you know about making pizzas.

Wow, I donít think I could work with 92.36% hydration in a pizza dough.

I have a question to ask and donít know why I didnít think about it before. I went on the expanded dough calculation tool and typed in a 10Ēx8Ē pan (when it said enter panís dimensions) and used PizzaHogís TF of 0.1218 that he used at Reply 199 http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,3783.msg92963.html#msg92963I did print out a sheet from the expanded dough calculation tool, with PizzaHogís TF, but used the rest of formulation Peter set-forth for me. Now I measured what I thought is a 10Ēx8Ē steel pan and the top measurements of the steel pan are right, but the bottom measurements are a lot less (due to the sloping sides on the steel pan). Do I need to change the formulation now? I am a bit confused about that. Maybe I have been using a wrong TF for my bigger steel pan too.

I would like to try and make the pizza in my home oven tomorrow, or Monday.

When Mike (Boy His Car) and I designed the expanded dough calculating tool we did not attempt to provide for pans with sloping sides. We did that for the deep-dish dough calculating tool but that was because the dough is pushed up the sides of the pans by specific amounts, and the numbers would be different for the two types of pans (round) that are commonly used to make the deep-dish style of pizza.

The practice I have seen among manufacturers of sloping sided pans is that the pans are rated by the top dimensions of the pans, not the bottom dimensions of the pans. The pans that Buddy's uses, including the 8" x 10" pan, are sloping sided pans. We don't know the weight of the dough ball that Buddy's uses for the 8" x 10" pan, so we can't do any calculations to determine the thickness factor they use. If we knew the dough ball weight, we wouldn't even have to know the thickness factor. We would only need to know that if we wanted or needed to use different pan sizes.

In your case, if the differences between the top and bottom dimensions are slight, then I wouldn't worry about it too much since the differences in the ingredients quantities are likely to be minimal. If, however, the top and bottom dimensions are materially different, then you can average the top and bottom dimensions and use those averages in the expanded dough calculating tool. If we ever learn how much dough Buddy's uses for one of its pans, we will be able to correlate it with one of the sets of dimensions (top or bottom) and use that as the standard, even for other sizes of pans.

When Mike (Boy His Car) and I designed the expanded dough calculating tool we did not attempt to provide for pans with sloping sides. We did that for the deep-dish dough calculating tool but that was because the dough is pushed up the sides of the pans by specific amounts, and the numbers would be different for the two types of pans (round) that are commonly used to make the deep-dish style of pizza.

The practice I have seen among manufacturers of sloping sided pans is that the pans are rated by the top dimensions of the pans, not the bottom dimensions of the pans. The pans that Buddy's uses, including the 8" x 10" pan, are sloping sided pans. We don't know the weight of the dough ball that Buddy's uses for the 8" x 10" pan, so we can't do any calculations to determine the thickness factor they use. If we knew the dough ball weight, we wouldn't even have to know the thickness factor. We would only need to know that if we wanted or needed to use different pan sizes.

In your case, if the differences between the top and bottom dimensions are slight, then I wouldn't worry about it too much since the differences in the ingredients quantities are likely to be minimal. If, however, the top and bottom dimensions are materially different, then you can average the top and bottom dimensions and use those averages in the expanded dough calculating tool. If we ever learn how much dough Buddy's uses for one of its pans, we will be able to correlate it with one of the sets of dimensions (top or bottom) and use that as the standard, even for other sizes of pans.

Peter

Peter,

I did recall that when you and Mike designed the deep-dish calculating tool the sloping sides were taken into consideration. I didnít think about how small my steel pans were on the bottom compared to the top until today. My steel pan on the bottom is 8 ĺ ďx 6 ľĒ. I guess members that use steel pans for Detroit styles of pizzas really donít make adjustments for how small the bottom of there pans are though when making a Detroit style of pizza.

I know we donít know the weights of the dough balls Buddyís uses for their steel pans. I understand we would only need to know what size pans we wanted to use in we knew those weights.

I mixed another dough this evening for another attempt with PizzaHogís TF. The dough was mixed with my flat beater only in the Kitchen Aid mixer. The dough was rested for 10 minutes and then mixed again.

The dough feels stickier this week. The dough ball was oiled with olive oil and I just formed the dough ball the best I could and didnít use any stretch and folds to see what happens. The final dough temperature was 75.8 degrees F.

I will try to bake the pizza tomorrow if my power doesnít go out.

This is also the work sheet from the expanded dough calculation tool for the dough if anyone is interested. The dough was made with Kyrol flour.

After cold fermenting for about 13 hrs., I took the dough ball out of the fridge. The poppy seeds spacing showed the dough ball had not doubled in size. I then left the dough ball sit out at room temperature (which was about 68 degrees F) for 1 Ĺ hrs. The dough ball still didnít double in size, so I turned my oven light on and placed the dough ball (in the plastic container) in my oven. In about an hour the dough ball did double in size. I also had made some of Novemberís sauce at Reply 7 http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,3735.msg32136.html#msg32136 earlier this morning with 6-in-1 ground tomatoes. I grated 8 oz. of Great Lakes white sharp cheddar and mixed some of the Grande mix in with the cheddar. Mostly all cheddar was used. After the dough ball had doubled I dumped it out of the plastic container and lightly floured it. It stretched very easily to fit the 10Ēx8Ē steel pan. The steel pan was oiled. I then put the plastic lid on the steel pan and put it into the oven with the light on. The reasoning of why I did that was maybe to act like a proofing box and get the dough to temper faster then letting it temper at room temperature. The dough in the pan stayed in my oven for 1 Ĺ hrs. to proof.

I then place 8.57 ounces of the cheese blend and spread it to the edges. Next Novemberís sauce was applied in dollops.

This Detroit style pizza was baked in my home oven at 475 degrees F for 15 minutes. I think the pizza could have been baked a little longer, but it was still good. I have to learn how this style of pizza bakes in my home oven. I placed the pan on the bottom rack and didnít move it at all. I am not sure if I should let it on the bottom rack the next time for the whole bake and am not sure if my oven should be turned up a little higher in temperature.

I did place an order for brick cheese (from the Mandi cheese shop) last week on the web, but received an email because of the bad weather that it wouldnít be shipped until next week.

I think I am starting to like Detroit style pizzas better than other styles of pizza. I might mix another dough tonight.

Looks good Norma! I'm curious about balling it though - why go through that step instead of just letting it bulk rise and then weighing it out directly into the pan and pressing into shape?

I started the 70% hydration dough last night with a one-hour room-temp rise and then into the fridge until tomorrow night.

Skee,

I guess just bulk rising would be okay, but I never tried that method before. I have worked on Jetís Pizza and Pizzarium doughs and have always tried to get some strength in higher hydrations doughs, either by balling, adding flour slower, double mixing, or doing some stretch and folds. I guess that is why I ball. If I get to make another dough tonight, I probably will try a few stretch and folds, or try other methods to try and strengthen the dough. I really donít know how Detroit pizzas are made. They might just bulk rise them and then the dough goes straight into the pan.

I guess just bulk rising would be okay, but I never tried that method before. I have worked on Jetís Pizza and Pizzarium doughs and have always tried to get some strength in higher hydrations doughs, either by balling, adding flour slower, double mixing, or doing some stretch and folds. I guess that is why I ball. If I get to make another dough tonight, I probably will try a few stretch and folds, or try other methods to try and strengthen the dough. I really donít know how Detroit pizzas are made. They might just bulk rise them and then the dough goes straight into the pan.

I did read your post at Reply 318, but guess I didnít recall all of the details for a typical dough-making schedule for square pizzas. So the dough is in balls at BuddyĎs. Are there any pictures of Buddyís dough balls here on the forum, or anywhere else you have seen? I donít recall seeing any. I did recall that Jetís and Buddyís makes their dough to be make into pizzas the same day.

The only reason I used the poppy seed trick was I wanted to know when the dough ball doubled, just for my own references. I know I could use yeast and make a same day dough, but wonder how much yeast I would need to add for that and also wonder how the crust would taste. I guess from your post at Reply 318 a good starting place would be about 0.60% IDY. If I tried an experiment tomorrow with 0.60% IDY do you think it would be of any use? I also guess the dough would then just stay at room temperature.