onesteward: If you can show me the evidence to demonstrate what you're saying, then I can accept that you have a point. But there are a couple of ground rules. First, no witnessing. That's little more than you presenting your emotional rationale for believing, and I won't accept it as evidence of anything except that you believe. Second, I do not accept scriptures from the Bible because they've been cherry-picked all the way down.

If you can come up with something to verify your claims in a way that will pass skeptical muster, then you'll have accomplished something no other Christian has ever done. That, by itself, makes for a worthwhile endeavor, and it is something you can reasonably ask God for help with, because it will help to convince many people.

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Nullus In Verba, aka "Take nobody's word for it!" If you can't show it, then you don't know it.

I would think that this has been covered before. However , what about the things in the Bible that talk about the earth being round, There is even scientific truths in the Bible that would be impossible to know back when it was written a brief list of Atoms (Hebrews 11:3, written 2000 years ago), Blood is the source of life and health (Leviticus 17:11), Ocean floor contains deep valleys and mountains (2 Samuel 22:16; Jonah 2:6), round earth (Isaiah 40:22) , Second Law of Thermodynamics the Law of Increasing Entropy (Isaiah 51:6; Psalm 102:25,26; and Hebrews 1:11), Each star is different (1 Corinthians 15:41), Light moves (Job 38:19,20),Winds blow in cyclones (Ecclesiastes 1:6), Ocean contains springs (Job 38:16).

Job 38:35 written 3,500 years ago said that light can be sent, and then manifest itself in speech but did you know that radio waves move at the speed of light? (Science in the Bible, 2008)

Like I said I would think that this has been discussed before. Just would like to know your thoughts on it.

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Most people think they know what they know. The problem starts by not knowing what you don't know. You know? (Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence) (Albert Einstein)One fool can ask more questions in a minute than twelve wise men can answer in an hour. --Nikolai Lenin

^^^^If all this science was in the bible 2000 years ago, why did it take so long for people to discover these things independently? As has been pointed out here before, most scientists in the western world were Christians of some sort and were quite familiar with the bible. Strange that they never saw all this stuff in the bible....and only began to discover things when they moved away from the bible and investigated what they actually saw in nature.

Aside from the most basic science info that is not in the bible like "boil water to kill germs that cause disease; wash your hands before eating and after touching anything dirty". That simple message would have saved millions of lives over the past 2000 years. Funny how the bible missed that.

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When all of Cinderella's finery changed back at midnight, why didn't the shoes disappear? What's up with that?

There is even scientific truths in the Bible that would be impossible to know back when it was written

How do we know this to be the case and why is it that we are so convinced that all the ancients were stupid and ill-informed? It is possible that they know and forgot stuff that we have yet to learn.

well. we know this to be the case because it is the case.( Ocean contains springs (Job 38:16).

Job 38:35 written 3,500 years ago said that light can be sent, and then manifest itself in speech)The fact of rather the ancients were stupid or ill informed was not the question. So I fail to see your point.

I am not saying that the Bible is correct in every way . I am just wondering how this knowledge was available at that time.

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Most people think they know what they know. The problem starts by not knowing what you don't know. You know? (Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence) (Albert Einstein)One fool can ask more questions in a minute than twelve wise men can answer in an hour. --Nikolai Lenin

I would think that this has been covered before. However , what about the things in the Bible that talk about the earth being round,

The word they use is round not sphere, which are two different words in Hebrew. And the Greeks knew it was a sphere quite early.

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There is even scientific truths in the Bible that would be impossible to know back when it was written a brief list of Atoms (Hebrews 11:3, written 2000 years ago),

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1 Now faith is confidence in what we hope for and assurance about what we do not see. 2 This is what the ancients were commended for3 By faith we understand that the universe was formed at God’s command, so that what is seen was not made out of what was visible.

Nothing about atoms here. Only about how god created the universe out of “something” that you can’t see. Where is the decription of atoms, how they work? Why nothing more than a vague claim for Christians to claim is a mention of an atom? And we can see atoms now, which would make the bible wrong. Also the idea of an atom, as invisible thing that cannot be divided, is quite old: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Atom#Atomism and not unique to the bible.

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Blood is the source of life and health (Leviticus 17:11),

simple observation will tell you this. You bleed out, you die. They killed a lot of animals to this god in this way to know it quite well.

Why not think that there was valley and mountains under the sea if you see them around you? Also is all of what is claimed in 2 Samuel, literally true? For instance

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14 The LORD thundered from heaven; the voice of the Most High resounded. 15 He shot his arrows and scattered the enemy, with great bolts of lightning he routed them. 16 The valleys of the sea were exposed and the foundations of the earth laid bare at the rebuke of the LORD, at the blast of breath from his nostrils.

This is an example of Christians picking and choosing what is literal and what isn’t in their bible.

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round earth (Isaiah 40:22) ,

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22 He sits enthroned above the circle of the earth, and its people are like grasshoppers. He stretches out the heavens like a canopy, and spreads them out like a tent to live in.

As above, it says circle, not sphere. And can you spread the heavens above a sphere? You might about to wrap it about but the analogy fails here.

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Second Law of Thermodynamics the Law of Increasing Entropy (Isaiah 51:6; Psalm 102:25,26; and Hebrews 1:11)

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6 Lift up your eyes to the heavens, look at the earth beneath; the heavens will vanish like smoke, the earth will wear out like a garment and its inhabitants die like flies. But my salvation will last forever, my righteousness will never fail.

Again, simple observation, and no mention of entropy.

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24 So I said: “Do not take me away, my God, in the midst of my days; your years go on through all generations. 25 In the beginning you laid the foundations of the earth, and the heavens are the work of your hands. 26 They will perish, but you remain; they will all wear out like a garment. Like clothing you will change them and they will be discarded. 27 But you remain the same, and your years will never end.

Same here. And Hebrews simply repeat the same thing. And not one word about entropy, which if this god knew about it, why didn’t he just say it? The usual Christian answer to this is that humans needed to learn up to that, but an omnipotent god could have made them understand.

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Each star is different (1 Corinthians 15:41)

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39 Not all flesh is the same: People have one kind of flesh, animals have another, birds another and fish another. 40 There are also heavenly bodies and there are earthly bodies; but the splendor of the heavenly bodies is one kind, and the splendor of the earthly bodies is another. 41 The sun has one kind of splendor, the moon another and the stars another; and star differs from star in splendor.

This fails in quite few ways, and shows well how Christians cherry pick. Man and mammals have the same flesh. We all share DNA, if you really want to make up how the bible knows anything. And “splendor” what does that mean exactly? One is prettier than the other? They have different types of beauty? We know that stars are quite similar, in how they are made, how they live and how they die.

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Light moves (Job 38:19,20)

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19 “What is the way to the abode of light? And where does darkness reside? 20 Can you take them to their places? Do you know the paths to their dwellings? 21 Surely you know, for you were already born! You have lived so many years!

Hmm light has a “path”. A path would indicate it goes a certain way every time. Does it do this? Doesn’t seem to. I see that light supposedly “lives” somewhere and darkness is a separate thing. OH and here’s where there are supposedly warehouses for snow and hail

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22 “Have you entered the storehouses of the snow or seen the storehouses of the hail,

and supposedly this god is responsible for lightning bolts. No, we know what does that. Again God fails to use this opportunity to actually teach humans something.

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Winds blow in cyclones (Ecclesiastes 1:6)

Observation gets one thing right for a certain location (does the southern hemisphere not exist?)and one thing utterly wrong.

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5 The sun rises and the sun sets, and hurries back to where it rises. 6 The wind blows to the south and turns to the north; round and round it goes, ever returning on its course.

the sun “hurries no where” and God could have taught humans that geocentrism was wrong how many thousands of years ago, kept various people alive who were burned as heretics?

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Ocean contains springs (Job 38:16).

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13 that it might take the earth by the edges and shake the wicked out of it? 14 The earth takes shape like clay under a seal; its features stand out like those of a garment. 15 The wicked are denied their light, and their upraised arm is broken. 16 “Have you journeyed to the springs of the sea or walked in the recesses of the deep?

Job is always good for showing how Christians try to accept something and ignore others. God is a great ass here with his boasting, which said now, would ring quite hollow. Here we see that the earth is assumed to be flat (having edges and being as flat as a clay seal, along with spring of the sea (not in the sea) which could mean either by being generous, and that without appropriate gear, of course no human has walked in the depths of the sea, again, more simple observation.

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Job 38:35 written 3,500 years ago said that light can be sent, and then manifest itself in speech but did you know that radio waves move at the speed of light? (Science in the Bible, 2008)

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34 “Can you raise your voice to the clouds and cover yourself with a flood of water? 35 Do you send the lightning bolts on their way? Do they report to you, ‘Here we are’? 36 Who gives the ibis wisdom[f] or gives the rooster understanding?[g]

Riley, do you accept this nonsense? This seems to indicate that lightning bolts talk to this god. Well we know what lightning bolts are and they don’t talk. WE also know that ibises are birds not very bright, and neither are roosters who will crow at pretty damn near anything.

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Like I said I would think that this has been discussed before. Just would like to know your thoughts on it.

My thought are that Christians pick and choose to support their nonsense. They are so desperate for evidence of their god that they make up such pathetic nonsense as this. I could also tell you from the bible that bats are birds, that somehow you can catch the cooties from a menstruating woman, that light can exist without a source, that magic floods can leave no evident, that one can indeed build a tower high enough to get to this god, etc, etc. And most Christians will try to claim that those don’t count in just hwo wonderful their bible is with science. The fact is that it isn’t. It’s full of nonsense from xenophobic ignorant men.

^^^^If all this science was in the bible 2000 years ago, why did it take so long for people to discover these things independently? As has been pointed out here before, most scientists in the western world were Christians of some sort and were quite familiar with the bible. Strange that they never saw all this stuff in the bible....and only began to discover things when they moved away from the bible and investigated what they actually saw in nature.

Aside from the most basic science info that is not in the bible like "boil water to kill germs that cause disease; wash your hands before eating and after touching anything dirty". That simple message would have saved millions of lives over the past 2000 years. Funny how the bible missed that.

They did wash (Halakha (Jewish law) requires that the water used for ritual washing be naturally pure, unused, not contain other substances, and not be discoloured. The water also must be poured from a vessel as a human act, on the basis of references in the Bible to this practice, e.g. Elisha pouring water upon the hands of Elijah. Water should be poured on each hand at least twice. A clean dry substance should be used instead if water is unavailable. (Wikipedia)

The boiling water would have been a good ideal..

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Most people think they know what they know. The problem starts by not knowing what you don't know. You know? (Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence) (Albert Einstein)One fool can ask more questions in a minute than twelve wise men can answer in an hour. --Nikolai Lenin

well. we know this to be the case because it is the case.( Ocean contains springs (Job 38:16).

Riley, Job speaks of "the springs of the ocean", not "the springs in the ocean". This means that the speaker presupposed that springs were the source of the ocean. By way of comparison, if you were talking about "the springs of the Nile", you would be referring to the springs that create the river, not to springs in the river.

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[On how kangaroos could have gotten back to Australia after the flood]: Don't kangaroos skip along the surface of the water? --Kenn

velkyn: No, I am not believing in anything without investigation. That is what I am doing. In doing so I am finding some very interesting things. Like; "He sits enthroned above the circle of the earth..." (Isaiah 40:22,NIV). (By the way, the Hebrew language at that time did not have a word for "sphere," only for "circle.")

"He spreads out the northern [skies] over empty space; he suspends the earth over nothing" (Job 26:7, NIV).

I just figured that, being you and most of the people on this site have already discussed these things. So where better to go with questions about it.

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Most people think they know what they know. The problem starts by not knowing what you don't know. You know? (Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence) (Albert Einstein)One fool can ask more questions in a minute than twelve wise men can answer in an hour. --Nikolai Lenin

well. we know this to be the case because it is the case.( Ocean contains springs (Job 38:16).

Riley, Job speaks of "the springs of the ocean", not "the springs in the ocean". This means that the speaker presupposed that springs were the source of the ocean. By way of comparison, if you were talking about "the springs of the Nile", you would be referring to the springs that create the river, not to springs in the river.

Thank you. That may indeed be the meaning behind that.

That is why I am asking. To have others thoughts on it.

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Most people think they know what they know. The problem starts by not knowing what you don't know. You know? (Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence) (Albert Einstein)One fool can ask more questions in a minute than twelve wise men can answer in an hour. --Nikolai Lenin

There is even scientific truths in the Bible that would be impossible to know back when it was written

How do we know this to be the case and why is it that we are so convinced that all the ancients were stupid and ill-informed? It is possible that they know and forgot stuff that we have yet to learn.

well. we know this to be the case because it is the case.( Ocean contains springs (Job 38:16).

Job 38:35 written 3,500 years ago said that light can be sent, and then manifest itself in speech)The fact of rather the ancients were stupid or ill informed was not the question. So I fail to see your point.

I am not saying that the Bible is correct in every way . I am just wondering how this knowledge was available at that time.

I'm not saying anything i reference to the Bible, so we can take the Bible's veracity out of the equation here. I just would like for someone to tell me why should we moderners be so convinced that none of the ancients possessed the knowledge and perhaps more, excluding industrial knowledge, that the most recent generations have possessed.

Truth OT : Before we could put any reasonable thought to your request, wouldn't we need to narrow down the knowledge you are referring to. An example may be of some help.

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Most people think they know what they know. The problem starts by not knowing what you don't know. You know? (Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence) (Albert Einstein)One fool can ask more questions in a minute than twelve wise men can answer in an hour. --Nikolai Lenin

velkyn: No, I am not believing in anything without investigation. That is what I am doing. In doing so I am finding some very interesting things. Like; "He sits enthroned above the circle of the earth..." (Isaiah 40:22,NIV). (By the way, the Hebrew language at that time did not have a word for "sphere," only for "circle.")

"He spreads out the northern [skies] over empty space; he suspends the earth over nothing" (Job 26:7, NIV).

I just figured that, being you and most of the people on this site have already discussed these things. So where better to go with questions about it.

Another thing to indicate that the bible authors thought the world was flat, the incident where Satan takes JC up to a mountain top and they can see the entire earth. That isn't possible on a sphere.

as for the earth hanging suspended, that's rather silly since that's not what it does. We also have Job claiming that the earth and heavens have pillars. That would be rather difficult with putting a sphere on them, though not impossible.

and more in job that makes no sense in reality and indeed shows that the bible authors didn't understand much:

JOb 26:8 He wraps up the waters in his clouds, yet the clouds do not burst under their weight.

and the claims that things like Behemoth and Leviathan exist.

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"There is no use in arguing with a man who can multiply anything by the square root of minus 1" - Pirates of Venus, ERB

"He spreads out the northern [skies] over empty space; he suspends the earth over nothing" (Job 26:7, NIV).

Even the expression "Over" indicates the primitive idea of a universal "down"

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An Omnipowerful God needed to sacrifice himself to himself (but only for a long weekend) in order to avert his own wrath against his own creations who he made in a manner knowing that they weren't going to live up to his standards.

Isaiah 40:22 refers to "the circle of the earth," or in the Italian translation, globo. The Hebrew is Khug = sphericity or roundness. (I stand corrected.)

Even if the translation "circle" is adhered to, think about Neil Armstrong in space,to him the spherical earth would have appeared circular regardless of which direction he viewed it from.

as for; JOb 26:8 He wraps up the waters in his clouds, yet the clouds do not burst under their weight.

In various passages, the Bible describes a hydrologic cycle, the process by which clouds are formed, rain is produced and ground water is replenished. Science made the same discovery in the 1600s, long after the Bible passages were written. Here are the related Bible verses:

"He wraps up the waters in his clouds, yet the clouds do not burst under their weight" (Job 26:8, NIV).

"He draws up the drops of water, which distill as rain to the streams; the clouds pour down their moisture and abundant showers fall on mankind" (Job 36:27-28, NIV).

AS for the things like Behemoth and Leviathan . Maybe they had a really big dog. maybe some really strong weed. Other than that , I really don't know.

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Most people think they know what they know. The problem starts by not knowing what you don't know. You know? (Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence) (Albert Einstein)One fool can ask more questions in a minute than twelve wise men can answer in an hour. --Nikolai Lenin

There is some much out there to learn , so many different thoughts and beliefs. Facts that I never before let enter my mind. Trying to cover it all while at the same time trying to not let my own beliefs lead me to a bias conclusion is a lot more difficult then I thought.

Most people think they know what they know. The problem starts by not knowing what you don't know. You know? (Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence) (Albert Einstein)One fool can ask more questions in a minute than twelve wise men can answer in an hour. --Nikolai Lenin

"He draws up the drops of water, which distill as rain to the streams; the clouds pour down their moisture and abundant showers fall on mankind" (Job 36:27-28, NIV).

I highly doubt it takes a rocket scientist to figure out that rain falls and flows into the streams. Also, God doesn't 'draw up' drops of water as if He had some sort of suction device. It's evaporation. Any mention of that? And the rains are not abundant for all of mankind. There are many places in the world where water just doesn't fall enough to sustain human life. Other areas get so much that they are flooded out constantly. Does that sound more like naturally occurring rain, or rain dictated by a supernatural being who makes it the perfect amount for everybody? Just think it through.

Isaiah 40:22 refers to "the circle of the earth," or in the Italian translation, globo. The Hebrew is Khug = sphericity or roundness. (I stand corrected.)Even if the translation "circle" is adhered to, think about Neil Armstrong in space,to him the spherical earth would have appeared circular regardless of which direction he viewed it from.

Old old excuse and it fails because the bible author isn’t seeing the earth from space and doesn’t already know that the earth is a sphere. They are seeing it from the surface. It appears flat on the surface unless you know what to look for, like the mast of a ship sinking below the horizon. The moon looks flat, and there is no reason to think the bible authors thought the moon or the earth was a sphere. Now, we do know that early astronomers did figure that out: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moon#Early_studies but there is nothing to say that the Israelites did in anyway. We do know that the Israelites were very wrong in what they thought, for example that light did not need a source, the sun and moon were both “lights” (not needed until a couple days after “light” was made), etc.

And we still have the problem of the earth being like a clay stamp, that it has edges, etc.

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as for; JOb 26:8 He wraps up the waters in his clouds, yet the clouds do not burst under their weight. In various passages, the Bible describes a hydrologic cycle, the process by which clouds are formed, rain is produced and ground water is replenished. Science made the same discovery in the 1600s, long after the Bible passages were written. Here are the related Bible verses:"He wraps up the waters in his clouds, yet the clouds do not burst under their weight" (Job 26:8, NIV).

and what does the hydrological cycle have to do with clouds containing water like bags? Nothing. Clouds are water, they are not some separate vessel that can burst.

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"He draws up the drops of water, which distill as rain to the streams; the clouds pour down their moisture and abundant showers fall on mankind" (Job 36:27-28, NIV).

Yep, and again, Riley, you pick and choose from your bible, claiming that it’s scientific but when it says something primitive then you ignore it. We have the bible claiming that God lives in a pavilion, that he spreads clouds (no that’s weather, not god) that this god uses lightning like Thor, etc. Again, we have observation and then nonsense. No god needed at all.

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27 “He draws up the drops of water, which distill as rain to the streams; 28 the clouds pour down their moisture and abundant showers fall on mankind. 29 Who can understand how he spreads out the clouds, how he thunders from his pavilion? 30 See how he scatters his lightning about him, bathing the depths of the sea. 31 This is the way he governs the nations and provides food in abundance. 32 He fills his hands with lightning and commands it to strike its mark. 33 His thunder announces the coming storm; even the cattle make known its approach.

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AS for the things like Behemoth and Leviathan . Maybe they had a really big dog. maybe some really strong weed. Other than that , I really don't know.

Ah, so as long as it sounds funny, you can write it off and poof, the bible doesn’t have to be right. But when Christians try to claim similar nonsense is “proof” that the Bible knew science long before modern humans, then it’s true, it’s true! That’s the convenience of a Christian who picks and chooses. You “know” things when you want to but when you find something that’s ridiculous, your sure knowledge vanishes.

If the bible has so much supposed science, why is it more often wrong than right? Why is it written so vaguely that it isn’t clear at all what is really meant, and only retconned by Christians into “science”? Again, this god, by its evident incompetence, either intends people to be killed for its inability to get its message across or simply can’t help it, and thus makes the universe seem just as it would be with no god at all.

I know it can be hard to come to realize that your fellow Christians can lie to you, Riley, but that’s exactly what happens. Creationists rely on misquotes, misrepresentation of science, and the bible itself with their claims of having the only “correct” interpretation, and outright lies to try to create support for their claims.

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"There is no use in arguing with a man who can multiply anything by the square root of minus 1" - Pirates of Venus, ERB

JeffPT:I had a very wise person tell me (when I started posting on here) a few things, I felt they had a lot of merit. 1. never start a post with the words, I feel . I believe. or I highly doubt. and I agree with you that now everyone, more than likely knows what evaporation is. And yes there are many places that does not have enough water. However we are not talking about now. We are talking about then, and I do not have the correct knowledge of what places had plenty of rain fall and what places did not back in the time or times the Bible was written. I am not saying I agree or disagree with the bible I am just researching to see where it all brings me. As for Behemoth, maybe they did make them up , but for what purpose? I do however find it hard to think that Dino could have been around at that time.

I can see where you could discover new information and then go back into a text that has already been written an make the new information seem to fit the old text. That may have very well been done. However, it to, would be understandable to see how some of the early writings could be taken for knowledge beyond their time.

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Most people think they know what they know. The problem starts by not knowing what you don't know. You know? (Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence) (Albert Einstein)One fool can ask more questions in a minute than twelve wise men can answer in an hour. --Nikolai Lenin

Trying to cover it all while at the same time trying to not let my own beliefs lead me to a bias conclusion is a lot more difficult then I thought.

Sure, that's difficult (and +1 for understanding the problem).

Here's an idea; instead of looking at the supposed science in the Bible, why not look at the science in the Qur'an, thus side-stepping your bias? Muslims make similar claims to Christians, that the Qur'an contains modern knowledge unknown at the time of writing, thus proving Allah's omniscience. And they do this in the same fashion; they take some ambiguous verse and then insist it is referring to something modern, ignoring any inconsistencies, and ignoring what people in the 7th Century did actually know.

This is quite a modern game for Christians and Muslims, by the way; as far as I know this strategy has only been used in the last two or three decades.

(My favourite is "The Ears are Active during Sleep", which contains the extraordinary claim that "According to recent scientific discoveries, the ear is the only sensory organ active while a person is sleeping. This is why we need an alarm clock to wake up". See the error there, Riley?).

Once you've understood the Muslim strategy, you'll have more understanding of how we view the Science of the Bible.

velkyn : I really am [/s][/s]not cherry picking the Bible[/s][/s] maybe I am. I am beginning to think that is what we all do to prove or disprove a point. And maybe we are missing the point , I read something once that I am finding that I agree with:I see it as wrong to try to draw out scientific data about the creation of the universe from Genesis one. Both young-earth creationists and old-earth creationists are guilty of pouring modern scientific terms back into Genesis. God could have written in scientific terms like E=mc2 , but He did not. I believe God had to accommodate himself to our limited knowledge, and limited language to communicate with us. God did not choose to use technical scientific terms to communicate with us. God used the common language, and familiar phrases of their day. God could have told us that the sun does not rise nor set, but that the earth is spinning around the sun. God instead used the common language of sunrise and sunset which was literal to the writers back then, but which modern concordists excuse as phenomenal language that we still use today. God is trying to communicate absolute spiritual truths, not shifting scientific theories.

God's purpose of inspiration is clearly stated in II Timothy 3:16 which says that the Bible is inspired by God so that it is profitable for instruction in righteousness not instruction in science. To take a poem and use it as a scientific text is wrong. It is like trying to use a hammer as a screwdriver. It does not work. One must understand the historical context and meaning of the original language that the Bible was written in.

I am finding that the belief or nonbelief in the Bible and God is just that, A belief that is based on faith and nothing more. And that is what it should be. Looking down on people because their belief or lack of somehow makes them unintelligent or evil in someway is absurd. I have no doubt that the debate over the existence of God will go on for years and more that not , the same old facts and cherry picked verses of the bible will be put up as evidence. The facts are what they are and some of them are impossible to deny. To do so would insult the very brain that some believe God gave them. I do not agree with every thing that I have heard here in the last couple of weeks, But to deny every fact that was set before me would not only insult my intelligence but my faith. If I think God can be explained away then I have no faith. But when facts are put in front of me that I can not deny, then to deny them would , well , be stupid. ( really no other way to say it)

To all that has put up with me over these last few days, I thank you , and would only ask that you understand believing what you have always believed is hard to give up. So some Christians may not understand or accept facts, even if they are undeniable. And for the Christians that come here. Anyone that believes someone is evil or should just die because their mind stays with the facts as they know them. You should be ashamed, and you need to go back in that Bible you have and reread what is and is not Christ like. As for why God allows evil things to happen. As to why God punishes when he is suppose to be an all loving God. I don't know. After talking to and reading some of the post here and really looking at the facts that were put before me. I have found out that I don't know alot of things I once thought I did. Again thank you for your kind help in trying to teach A Christian that he should open his mind and not be afraid of the truth and the facts that are there for all to see. You was nothing like I believed I would find on a site like this. Even if I am still a believer in A God I can't prove, You all have my respect. I hope you don't mind me bouncing in and out from time to time.

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Most people think they know what they know. The problem starts by not knowing what you don't know. You know? (Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence) (Albert Einstein)One fool can ask more questions in a minute than twelve wise men can answer in an hour. --Nikolai Lenin

velkyn : I really am [/s][/s] not cherry picking the Bible[/s][/s] maybe I am. I am beginning to think that is what we all do to prove or disprove a point.

Well, it’s all *some* people do. There’s a difference between taking facts and quoting a book that has nothing to show that it should be trusted and taking those quotes out of context. Again, why does the bible get something apparently close to right, and some others totally wrong? Was god not paying attention? And you might not be personally cherry picking but the sources of your posts are. Christians want to believe that their brethren wouldn't tell them a lie, but unfortunately, we have a stack of Chrisitans who all spread the same nonsense and who don't question it.

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And maybe we are missing the point , I read something once that I am finding that I agree with:I see it as wrong to try to draw out scientific data about the creation of the universe from Genesis one. Both young-earth creationists and old-earth creationists are guilty of pouring modern scientific terms back into Genesis. God could have written in scientific terms like E=mc2 , but He did not. I believe God had to accommodate himself to our limited knowledge, and limited language to communicate with us.

This fails since it assumes that your god can’t do something. Is it or is it not omnipotent?

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God did not choose to use technical scientific terms to communicate with us. God used the common language, and familiar phrases of their day. God could have told us that the sun does not rise nor set, but that the earth is spinning around the sun. God instead used the common language of sunrise and sunset which was literal to the writers back then, but which modern concordists excuse as phenomenal language that we still use today. God is trying to communicate absolute spiritual truths, not shifting scientific theories.

And failing at both dramatically. We have Christians who all claim that their version is the only “absolute spiritual truth”. This also begs the question, and I’ll use the Jesus Christ Superstar version of it:

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If you'd had it planned Now why'd you choose such a backward timeAnd such a strange land?

If you'd come today, You could have reached the whole nation. Israel in 4 BC had no mass communication

One of my favorite “operas” ever. Your god could have told humanity those things and kept Giordano Bruno alive. Could have advanced us far in our science. But, your god is strangely limited to humanity’s timeline. It’s just like medicine. It could have taught germ theory, but no, we get “menstruating women will give you cooties!”. It’s primitive and ignorant. If God had said, “You idiots, the earth moves around the sun”, there is no reason people couldn’t have understood it nor is there a reason that God had to intentionally let them believe a lie, and this certainly isn’t a “shifting scientific theory”. Heck it could have helped this god establish its bone fides, to tell one truth. Your argument is the same that tries to excuse slavery, claiming that humans couldn’t have possibly understood anything else.

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God's purpose of inspiration is clearly stated in II Timothy 3:16 which says that the Bible is inspired by God so that it is profitable for instruction in righteousness not instruction in science.

So it isn’t to be taken as scientifically valid anymore? Then why do so many Christians insist that it is to be taken as such. This again demonstrates that Christians can’t agree on much of anything in their religion.

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To take a poem and use it as a scientific text is wrong. It is like trying to use a hammer as a screwdriver. It does not work. One must understand the historical context and meaning of the original language that the Bible was written in.

and we finally come to the problem of how do you determine what is what in the bible? What is metaphor? What is literal? What is poetry and what isn’t? I know the historical context, Riley. It was just one more Bronze/Iron age community that needed a mythos to explain the world and to declare how much better they were than anyone else. And I also have the original meaning of the language. We have how many translations of the bible now? And each Christian is sure that the Holy Spirit tells them what God “really” meant, and each differs. There is no way to determine what was “meant” other than going with context, history, archaeology, etc. And none of those disciplines support the events claimed in the bible or the existence of a god.

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I am finding that the belief or nonbelief in the Bible and God is just that, A belief that is based on faith and nothing more. And that is what it should be. Looking down on people because their belief or lack of somehow makes them unintelligent or evil in someway is absurd. I have no doubt that the debate over the existence of God will go on for years and more that not , the same old facts and cherry picked verses of the bible will be put up as evidence. The facts are what they are and some of them are impossible to deny. To do so would insult the very brain that some believe God gave them.

Riley, to tell me that my not believing the bible is on “faith” is ridiculous. I have evidence that shows the bible is wrong. It’s not faith, it’s facts. No evidence of any of the events claimed or the god supposed behind everything. I do agree that it is faith to believe in stories that have nothing to back them up. If you still believed in Santa Claus or fairies or leprehcauns, I think I would have plenty of reason to consider you at best naïve and at worst not too bright. I suspect you would feel the same way about me if I believed in such nonsense.

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I do not agree with every thing that I have heard here in the last couple of weeks, But to deny every fact that was set before me would not only insult my intelligence but my faith. If I think God can be explained away then I have no faith. But when facts are put in front of me that I can not deny, then to deny them would , well , be stupid. ( really no other way to say it)

What facts do you have that support the existence of your god, Riley? One way to know a fact is to keep pushing at it. If it gives way, and you can deny it and rebut it with more facts, then it wasn’t a fact.

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To all that has put up with me over these last few days, I thank you , and would only ask that you understand believing what you have always believed is hard to give up. So some Christians may not understand or accept facts, even if they are undeniable.

I know that, Riley. I was once a Christian and I know how hard it is to give up feeling like some big powerful being in the sky cares for you and only you, that this being will take care of everything. IMO, religion infantilizes humans, makes them childish, and unable to think for themselves.

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And for the Christians that come here. Anyone that believes someone is evil or should just die because their mind stays with the facts as they know them. You should be ashamed, and you need to go back in that Bible you have and reread what is and is not Christ like.

That’s one of those problems for Christians, Riley. What is indeed Christ-like? We have the JC who is “love thy neighbor” and then we have the one who calls Samaritan woman “dogs”, says that some people deserve to be damned because God doesn’t want them to every understand and that those who don’t accept him should be brought before him and killed (Luke 19, parable of the minas).

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As for why God allows evil things to happen. As to why God punishes when he is suppose to be an all loving God. I don't know. After talking to and reading some of the post here and really looking at the facts that were put before me. I have found out that I don't know alot of things I once thought I did.

And that’s always good, to keep learning.

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Again thank you for your kind help in trying to teach A Christian that he should open his mind and not be afraid of the truth and the facts that are there for all to see. You was nothing like I believed I would find on a site like this. Even if I am still a believer in A God I can't prove, You all have my respect. I hope you don't mind me bouncing in and out from time to time.

We have another fellow like you, OldChurchGuy, who does the same. I would just ask you to keep thinking and not return to a comfortable but mistaken belief. At least consider the things you took as “evidence” for your god and not pass them along as if they were facts.

^^^^If all this science was in the bible 2000 years ago, why did it take so long for people to discover these things independently? As has been pointed out here before, most scientists in the western world were Christians of some sort and were quite familiar with the bible. Strange that they never saw all this stuff in the bible....and only began to discover things when they moved away from the bible and investigated what they actually saw in nature.

Aside from the most basic science info that is not in the bible like "boil water to kill germs that cause disease; wash your hands before eating and after touching anything dirty". That simple message would have saved millions of lives over the past 2000 years. Funny how the bible missed that.

They did wash (Halakha (Jewish law) requires that the water used for ritual washing be naturally pure, unused, not contain other substances, and not be discoloured. The water also must be poured from a vessel as a human act, on the basis of references in the Bible to this practice, e.g. Elisha pouring water upon the hands of Elijah. Water should be poured on each hand at least twice. A clean dry substance should be used instead if water is unavailable. (Wikipedia)

The boiling water would have been a good ideal..

Ritual washing is not what I was talking about, although that would certainly have worked if the ritual was connected to washing before eating, after using the toilet and when working around sick or dead people. Such a simple action, but not widely known about or performed until the late 19th and early 20th century. If there was an all-knowing, caring god, why did he waste so many pages of his holy book on how to manage slaves, who begat who and lists of clean and unclean animals? Why didn't he just tell people about germs?

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When all of Cinderella's finery changed back at midnight, why didn't the shoes disappear? What's up with that?

Ritual washing is not what I was talking about, although that would certainly have worked if the ritual was connected to washing before eating, after using the toilet and when working around sick or dead people. Such a simple action, but not widely known about or performed until the late 19th and early 20th century. If there was an all-knowing, caring god, why did he waste so many pages of his holy book on how to manage slaves, who begat who and lists of clean and unclean animals? Why didn't he just tell people about germs?[/quote]2.Netilat yadayim La'Pat ("Raising [after ritually washing] the hands for bread"), also known as Mayim Rishonim. which is done with a blessing, prior to eating any bread with a meal, and done without a blessing, after touching a tamei (ritually impure) object (such as one's private parts, leather shoes, or an animal[citation needed] or insect, or after paying a visit to a cemetery).3.Mayim acharonim ("After-waters") a law or custom of ritually washing off one's fingers after a meal, to protect oneself from touching the eyes with hazardous residue.[3]4.During a Passover Seder, a third washing of netilat yadayim[4] is performed without any blessing being recited, before the eating of a vegetable, called karpas, prior to the main meal.5.After visiting the bathroom, the ritual washing of one's hands as a symbol of both bodily cleanliness and of removing human impurity - see Netilat yadayim above.6.Every Kohen present has his hands ritually washed in synagogue by the Levi'im (Levites) before uttering the Priestly Blessing in front of the congregation.7.To remove tuma ("impurity") after cutting one's hair or nails8.To remove tumat met ("impurity from death") after participating in a funeral procession, or entering a cemetery, or coming within four cubits of a corpse9.Some communities observe a requirement for washing one's body (which may be done with tap water) after experiencing a seminal emission, including ejaculation or receiving seminal fluid during sexual intercourse since these activities make the man baal keri (one who is impure due to ejaculation.)(Wikipedia)

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Most people think they know what they know. The problem starts by not knowing what you don't know. You know? (Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence) (Albert Einstein)One fool can ask more questions in a minute than twelve wise men can answer in an hour. --Nikolai Lenin

This is an excellent thread. If I may share my own opinion (much of it not based on scripture, but my own understanding of it). The Old Testament is written about men without the Holy Spirit, whom Christ promised would come as our helper after His ascension. To Compare the Old Testament to the New Testament is not possible because of this Truth.

To understand the difference, especially the discussion about those who have not heard the gospel, but by just being good are "saved" or "get into heaven" based on Romans Chapter 1 (why isn't that good enough?), or why would God ordered Abraham to sacrifice his only son, and why that doesn't happen today, or why would a God even do that, etc, etc, etc.

You need to read Hebrews Chapter 11, called the Faith Chapter. Faith has not been discussed here much but it is important. God did not command Abraham to sacrifice his son, Abraham was tempted (Huge difference). When your tempted, do you have a choice? Did Eve have a choice? Abraham had received the promise of his seed coming through Isaac before he left to sacrifice Isaac, and responded to Isaac when Isaac started to get nervous: "God will provide" the sacrifice.

Getting back to Hebrews 11 (read for yourself please, Italics mine):

"By Faith we understand that the universe was formed at God’s command..........

4 By faith Abel......

5 By faith Enoch...

7 By faith Noah......

8 By faith Abraham...........

13 All these people were still living by faith when they died. They did not receive the things promised; they only saw them and welcomed them from a distance, admitting that they were foreigners and strangers on earth............How do you make this up????

17 By faith Abraham..........

20 By faith Isaac.............

21 By faith Jacob.............

22 By faith Joseph............

23 By faith Moses’ parents hid him for three months.............

24 By faith Moses........

27 By faith he left Egypt, not fearing the king’s anger.............

29 By faith the people passed through the Red Sea..............

30 By faith the walls of Jericho fell...........

31 By faith the prostitute Rahab............

32 And what more shall I say? I do not have time to tell about Gideon, Barak, Samson and Jephthah, about David and Samuel and the prophets, 33 who through faith conquered kingdoms, administered justice, and gained what was promised; who shut the mouths of lions, 34 quenched the fury of the flames, and escaped the edge of the sword; whose weakness was turned to strength; and who became powerful in battle and routed foreign armies. 35 Women received back their dead, etc. etc. etc.

You only talk about the people in the Old Testament who suffered on account of their sin, who had to cook their food over dung (coming to America soon), never about those who had faith.

It is by faith you are saved through grace, not of yourselves......

Therefore I claim, those who have not heard the gospel, but by observing the obvious around them (Gods creation [Romans 1]) by faith.............not of works, lest any man shall boast. They may not be as "intelligent" as you, but they believe.

what does your post have to do with this thread? As far as I can tell, it has nothing to do with either the OP or the current conversation. As far as I can tell, it is just preaching. Please stop doing that.

This is an excellent thread. If I may share my own opinion (much of it not based on scripture, but my own understanding of it). The Old Testament is written about men without the Holy Spirit, whom Christ promised would come as our helper after His ascension. To Compare the Old Testament to the New Testament is not possible because of this Truth.

Gee, JC didn’t’ think that they were to be ignored so much as jtp indicates. Indeed, JC quotes them and lauds them. I guess this is the gospel of jtp, and we should ignore everything else. The good old HS always is invoked by Christians who want to claim that they and they alone know that God “really” meant, and funny how this HS can’t get its message straight.

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To understand the difference, especially the discussion about those who have not heard the gospel, but by just being good are "saved" or "get into heaven" based on Romans Chapter 1 (why isn't that good enough?), or why would God ordered Abraham to sacrifice his only son, and why that doesn't happen today, or why would a God even do that, etc, etc, etc..

You need to read Hebrews Chapter 11, called the Faith Chapter. Faith has not been discussed here much but it is important. God did not command Abraham to sacrifice his son, Abraham was tempted (Huge difference). When your tempted, do you have a choice? Did Eve have a choice? Abraham had received the promise of his seed coming through Isaac before he left to sacrifice Isaac, and responded to Isaac when Isaac started to get nervous: "God will provide" the sacrifice.

and more OneTrueChristian nonsense

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Getting back to Hebrews 11 (read for yourself please, Italics mine):

"By Faith we understand that the universe was formed at God’s command..........

4 By faith Abel...... 5 By faith Enoch... 7 By faith Noah...... 8 By faith Abraham........... 13 All these people were still living by faith when they died. They did not receive the things promised; they only saw them and welcomed them from a distance, admitting that they were foreigners and strangers on earth............How do you make this up????

Jtp, you are so inept here. Let’s see, we have Noah getting the flood he was promised. We have Abraham chatting directly with God. We have Cain and Abel also talking directly with God. All we know about Enock is that he “walked with God” for 300 years and evidently got taken directly to heaven (oh and that apocryphal book). Again and again, we have supposedly direct interaction with god, no faith needed. And Isaac and Jacob, and Moses, etc. All the same. You seem to be so stupid to think that no one can show how your claims are wrong. And it’s great fun to do so.

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"There is no use in arguing with a man who can multiply anything by the square root of minus 1" - Pirates of Venus, ERB