MURDER ON THE WORLD WIDE WEB Or, More Gobbledegook From FBI
Agent David "Killer" Keller

by J. Orlin Grabbe

Listen carefully while FBI Agent David "Killer" Keller explains why
Orlin Grabbe is really Chuck Hayes, and how he did, or maybe did not,
discuss the issue with Customs--or some reasonable facsimile thereof.

Q. Okay. Tell me how you know that that page on the internet is
Charles Hayes' web site. That's what you said it was.

A. I didn't say that I knew for sure. I said I had a high degree of
suspicion that it was probably Charles Hayes.

Q. Give me the basis for your suspicion.

A. Well, it's pretty singular in nature when you pull all of the data
from the J. Orlan Grabbie internet, the things that he has published over
the last--well, just since it has been--that I have been able to retrieve.
But the--a lot of the information has been singular in nature. It has
been informtion that has been recently developed, as recently as within
the last seven to 10 days--

Q. Do you have--

A. --that all of the sudden appear on the--on the internet under the
name of J. Orlan Grabbie.

Q. Have you ever met Mr. Grabbie?

A. For example--

MR. HATFIELD: Your Honor, let him finish the answer please.

BY MR. SCOVILLE:

A. [David Keller] Well, okay. For example, Mr. Hayes has been in a
dispute in a--in a--in a legal instant litigation with the U.S. government.
His, I think, some--his finders fee, if I can call it that, in just simple
language, over some gems in a customs case. And that was recently settled
as recently as this month, October of this month. And it's already on the
internet. Copies of the letter are on internet from the U.S. Customs
Service. Copies of the letter under this pen name of J. Orlan Grabbie, as
recently as within the last--and what I'm getting at is that not very many
people know that.

Q. Okay. When that case was settled, did Mr. Hayes get money from the
government?

A. Yes, sir, I understand that he did.

Q. How much did he get?

A. Six hundred dollars is what I heard.

Q. Do you know why he was paid that of $600?

A. Why?

Q. Yeah.

A. It's my understanding that it was part of like a finder's fee or
like a commission for --

Q. When he worked for the government?

A. When he worked for the U.S. Customs Service.

Q. Helping them locate illegal gems coming in from Brazil?

A. No. I really--really don't know the involvement, but he was involved
in with the U.S. Customs Service in connection with breaking up a smuggling
organization that was bringing stolen gems into the United States. And
this occurred, I think, about five, six, seven year ago.

Q. Okay.

A. It has been some time ago.

Q. Okay.

A. He has been involved in extensive litigation, I think, trying to
argue--argue--

Q. Arguing about--

A. --about money--

Q. Yeah. Okay.

A. --that's owed to him.

Q. Do you know that that's still ongoing?

A. No, sir, it was settled as recently as--

Q. Have you got those documents? How do you--how do you--

A. I pulled them off internet, and that's what I was getting at.

Q. Who put it on the internet?

A. Well, this J. Orlan Grabbie as a pen name.

Q. Now, you believe--in other words, I'm asking you, sir, do you have
any documentation from the Customs or anybody that he was actually working
for them?

A. No, sir. I mean, no, not--

Q. So all this stuff that you are pulling off the internet there--

A. Yes.

Q. --from a web site that you don't know, and you don't know who this
person is?

A. I have been in--I have been in touch with the U.S. Customs as early
as yesterday.

Q. Okay, okay. Do they acknowledge that there is a problem with--that
there is litigation going on?

A. No. They told me that it was settled. I'm aware that this thing is
settled.

Q. That's what they said?

A. Yes.

Q. Did they confirm for you that he, in fact, worked for them and
assisted them in breaking up the smuggling ring?

A. I never even asked them. I--I believe he is aware of doing--or had
some role in that, yes, sir.

Q. Okay.

A. Which initially--

Q. Did you ask them if he had any dangerous propensities when he worked
for them?

A. No, sir.

MR. HATFIELD: I object to that phrase, worked for them.

THE COURT: Overruled.

Mr. SCOVILLE: I thought that's why we were here today, as I
understand it.

THE COURT: Go ahead. I overruled it.

MR. SCOVILLE: Okay.

BY MR. SCOVILLE:

Q. What--did you ask him anything about his--was he a danger of any kind?
That's what we are here for today. Did you ask him anything like that?

A. No, sir, I didn't ask him those--those specific questions, no.

Q. But did they confirm for you that he worked for them for a period of
time?

A. I don't know. I did not ask them that. I don't know what his role is
with the U.S. Customs.

Q. What did you ask them?

A. I didn't even talk to them. I was getting my information through
facsimile. I was in communication with the facsimile, and also with
Bob Rawlins, the Assistant U.S. Attorney that is handling that particular
litigation, was the go-between between me and the U.S. Customs yesterday.

Q. Did you get facsimiles here in your office?

A. Yes, I did.

Q. What did you say?

A. It's all in relation to the internet, the same stuff I was pulling
off the internet. Some of the same material, it was all the stuff on the
internet. It had nothing do with the Customs case itself, except, except--
except for the documents in the internet with documents from U.S. Customs--

Q. Let's back up.

A. As recently as--as within the last 10 days or so this month.

Q. Finished?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. You told me that you talked with someone in Customs at first?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. That you been in contact with Customs?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. What did you ask the Customs people about Mr. Hayes?

A. Nothing. I didn't personally call.

Q. Then you haven't been in contact with Customs?

A. Yes, sir, I picked up the phone and talked to them and handed the
phone to Bob Rawlins.

Q. Did you call them or they call you?

A. Well, there was a series of calls that started--

Q. By you?

A. No, sir, by Customs. They called me--called our office.

Q. When--when--or--

A. Through Mr. Rawlins.

Q. Okay. So Mr. Rawlins called them and asked them to call you?

A. Something in that nature, yes, sir.

Q. Well, I don't know, maybe I misunderstand you. But can you tell me
what Customs told you about his role when he worked with Customs or what
he did?

A. I have never talked to Customs about his role.

Q. Can you tell me what they told Mr. Rawlins?

A. I didn't really have to ask him a whole lot because I already had
some knowledge--

Q. But you--

A. --about Hayes' affiliation with Customs over the gems.

Q. Okay. If you already knew about it--I thought you said--testified
here just a moment ago that you'd had this conversation with somebody in
Customs, or Mr. Rawlins had had a conversation with somebody in Customs,
that you had facsimiles that had come from Customs?

A. Yes, Sir.

Q. Okay. What did--what were--what was your inquiry to Customs about
Mr. Hayes? What did you and Customs talk about?

A. It was mostly--it was all having to do with what was on the internet,
about the U.S. Customs case and other things under the pen name of J.
Orlan Grabbie, and that is--that was basically the extent of our inquiries
from Customs, and--or--that basically what the contacts were about. There
were a series of telephone calls facsimiled between our office and U.S.
Customs within last two days that centered on the internet publications.

Q. Okay. Well, I want to get this straight one more time. Does--did
you confirm with Customs that he had been a person who worked for them and
helped them in a--recover some gems?

A. No, sir, I knew that.

Q. Okay. And when you talked to Customs, have you ever talked to them
about his propensity for violence?

A. No, sir.

Q. Okay. How long have you known of Charles Hayes?

A. I first became aware of him when he came to our office and talked
to a special Agent Kincaid about this same Customs inquiry.

Q. When was that?

A. Approximately four or five years ago.

Q. You don't remember in 1990 when Mr. Hayes purchased computers from
the United States attorney's office?

A. Yes, sir, yes, sir.

Q. That was 1990?

A. Yes, sir. Well, I said that's when I first encountered Mr. Hayes,
was when he came to our office with the gem case. I'm not saying that
I haven't had other contacts with him.

Q. When was the first time you heard of Mr. Hayes?

A. It was when he was in contact with Special Agent Kincaid over the gem
thing from Brazil.

Q. That was about 1985?

A. It was, I would say, four or five years ago. It could have been longer.

Q. Okay.

A. It has been a while. It's been a long time whenever it started.

Q. Okay.

A. It's been a while.

Q. Did you recall the controversy with the U.S. Attorney's office?

A. Yes, sir, I do, most certainly.

Q. What was that about?

A. It concerned Mr. Hayes purchasing salvage computers from the United
States Attorney's office and getting those computers and getting access
to the information that was inadvertently left on the hard drives of those
computers.

Q. He had actually legally purchased those computers?

A. Yes, sir, that's correct.

Q. And he was never charged with doing anything wrong?

A. No, sir.

Q. Would it be safe to say that there was some animosity that developed
as a result of that between the government and Mr. Hayes?

A. I don't--I can't answer that. I mean, I don't think there would be
anything that would prejudice the government to act one way or another,
if that's what--