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Re: "Useless" character concepts

Originally Posted by Joe dirt

A character that is a Siamese twin... one twin wants to be a paladin of lawful good nature. the other wants to be an evil assassin or someone with multiple personality disorder... but has the same problem of being completely opposed to the others agenda.... could also work with a character that is possessed

I played this character in a LARP. I was an Assassin half the time, and a Healer the other half of the time. The Assassin always wore a mask, so nobody knew the truth, even himself. Nobody even noticed that they had almost identical backstories, because they assumed I was just being lazy in my character creation. Turns out I was much better at character building than they assumed.

Re: "Useless" character concepts

Originally Posted by krugaan

"An arrow to the knee? You got off *lucky*."

Now I'm picturing a halfling grappler-barbarian/bard focused on dexterity as a result of his ill-founded belief that he would grow up to thieve all the thieving thief's in the thiefdom through the use of his mighty, manipulative wits (high dexterity/intelligence, average constitution/charisma, low strength/wisdom) until a drunken tavern brawl revealed to him his love of gratuitous physical violence. (Background: Charlatan.)

Given his small size and relative physical frailty he's forced to rely exclusively on the single-leg takedown when fighting most creatures which, as with Fezzek of Princess Bride fame, impairs his ability to fight people of his own size. The ferocious joy that he experiences from a well struck blow of his forehead to the kneecap or groin of an opponent is sufficient to keep him alive when they kick him half-way across the dungeon.

Given that he always expected to spend more time dodging between legs in an attempt to escape the Watch he's naturally proficient in acrobatics, not athletics. The result of his greater than average intellect is that he cannot resist puns in the midst of combat leading him to have unintentionally multi-classed to bard.

In order to employ his sole maneuver of the single-leg take down with any hope of success even against your average ale-besotted human commoner he's taken to wearing a helmet which he uses to headbutt knees and groins in the hopes of imposing disadvantage on subsequent takedown attempts.

The end result being that one beautiful toss of the dice to land on the most unlikely natural 20 in the world as he attempts to execute a single leg takedown on something that's literally nine times his size and ends the round by knocking sardonically on his helmet as he utters the following dad-joke:

Re: "Useless" character concepts

Originally Posted by jojo

Now I'm picturing a halfling grappler-barbarian/bard focused on dexterity as a result of his ill-founded belief that he would grow up to thieve all the thieving thief's in the thiefdom through the use of his mighty, manipulative wits (high dexterity/intelligence, average constitution/charisma, low strength/wisdom) until a drunken tavern brawl revealed to him his love of gratuitous physical violence. (Background: Charlatan.)

Given his small size and relative physical frailty he's forced to rely exclusively on the single-leg takedown when fighting most creatures which, as with Fezzek of Princess Bride fame, impairs his ability to fight people of his own size. The ferocious joy that he experiences from a well struck blow of his forehead to the kneecap or groin of an opponent is sufficient to keep him alive when they kick him half-way across the dungeon.

Given that he always expected to spend more time dodging between legs in an attempt to escape the Watch he's naturally proficient in acrobatics, not athletics. The result of his greater than average intellect is that he cannot resist puns in the midst of combat leading him to have unintentionally multi-classed to bard.

In order to employ his sole maneuver of the single-leg take down with any hope of success even against your average ale-besotted human commoner he's taken to wearing a helmet which he uses to headbutt knees and groins in the hopes of imposing disadvantage on subsequent takedown attempts.

The end result being that one beautiful toss of the dice to land on the most unlikely natural 20 in the world as he attempts to execute a single leg takedown on something that's literally nine times his size and ends the round by knocking sardonically on his helmet as he utters the following dad-joke:

Re: "Useless" character concepts

Originally Posted by The_Jette

I played this character in a LARP. I was an Assassin half the time, and a Healer the other half of the time. The Assassin always wore a mask, so nobody knew the truth, even himself. Nobody even noticed that they had almost identical backstories, because they assumed I was just being lazy in my character creation. Turns out I was much better at character building than they assumed.

So did u undercut ur own objectives? Did the two know about each other and if they did why didnt the good one lock up himself? Or was the good just a cover for the evil side?

Re: "Useless" character concepts

Originally Posted by Joe dirt

So did u undercut ur own objectives? Did the two know about each other and if they did why didnt the good one lock up himself?

Actually, they did undercut their own objectives... sort of. They were completely unaware of each other. When one was in charge they had the strong desire to kill/protect the target of the other. There was a lot of "hey, guys, this assassin is after this person. We should protect them." And, part of the backstory was the assassin breaking into the healer's Monastery and killing off all the monks who lived there, causing the healer to leave the place, and the assassin to gain some status in the underworld. They think it's a coincidence that they keep ending up in the same space. The "end" of their story came about when the healer came across a person too damaged for him to save, and ended up sacrificing himself to save the person. His "soul" ascended to a higher plane, and left the body for the assassin, who picked up his skills with healing, and found that his body resisted him whenever he attempted to murder someone. He was essentially the same assassin, but with all of the "morals" of the healer. I retired the character after that, though.

Bio: She's the adventurers' parochial school disciplinarian. Cultured but with a nasty temper. Not too strong, lest she cripple her charges. But they learn to listen to her sooner than later. Her grapple is often a well placed pinch.

Re: "Useless" character concepts

Originally Posted by krugaan

Right, but you prepare each class individually as if they were seperate single classes, no?

If I'm reading it the same what that they are you prepare each class individually, yes, but your preparation is based on the highest spell slot you have (at least, as far as Clerics are concerned). As we're using the multiclass table our highest level spell slot is 9th.

Re: "Useless" character concepts

KROGG the fire-barbarian

Krogg is a half-orc barbarian (Berserker) of the frozen waste. Krogg's player gave him good STR and CON, half-decent DEX and dumped INT and WIS as low as he could. CHA is 12 because "hey, I have free Intimidate and that's a CHA skill".

Early in his adventurer's life, Krogg was impressed by wizards and sorcerers flinging fireballs, and came to the conclusion that FIRE! was the most powerful weapon there was. Krogg was to become a CASTER! Abysmal INT and WIS meant no Cleric/Druid/Wizard, so Trogg's player decided to go Sorcerer (Firebolt was not on the Warlock spell list). Unfortunately, now Krogg has to slug to 4th level to get his ASI to bring his CHA to 13. Krogg's player decides to go with the Actor feat, because why not?

A few levels later, Krogg is now a SORCERER (wild magic, because Krogg is a half-orc, not a half-orc/half-human/half-dragon). As the battle breaks, Krogg jumps into the fray, initiating Frenzy Rage (with one attack, because he didn't make it to level 5). Then, he remembers that FIRE! is the most powerful weapon, and casts a spell (with a disappointing spell DC of 12). Rage ends, Krogg gains an exhaustion level, and quickly runs out of spell slots (that's when his skin doesn't become a vibrant shade of blue or worse, when he becomes immune to alcohol for a week), because his group is now level 8th and fights are getting though. And that was the first encounter of the day...

Re: "Useless" character concepts

Originally Posted by Laurefindel

KROGG the fire-barbarian

Krogg is a half-orc barbarian (Berserker) of the frozen waste. Krogg's player gave him good STR and CON, half-decent DEX and dumped INT and WIS as low as he could. CHA is 12 because "hey, I have free Intimidate and that's a CHA skill".

Early in his adventurer's life, Krogg was impressed by wizards and sorcerers flinging fireballs, and came to the conclusion that FIRE! was the most powerful weapon there was. Krogg was to become a CASTER! Abysmal INT and WIS meant no Cleric/Druid/Wizard, so Trogg's player decided to go sorcerer (Firebolt was not on the Warlock spell list). Unfortunately, now Krogg has to slug to 4th level to get his ASI to bring his CHA to 13. Krogg's player decides to go with the Actor feat, because why not?

A few levels later, Krogg is now a SORCERER (wild magic, because Krogg is a half-orc, not a half-orc/half-human/half-dragon). As the battle breaks, Krogg jumps into the fray, initiating Frenzy Rage (with one attack, because he didn't make it to level 5). Then, he remembers that FIRE! is the most powerful weapon, and casts a spell. Rage ends, Krogg gains an exhaustion level, and quickly runs out of spell slots (that's when his skin doesn't become a vibrant shade of blue or worse, when he becomes immune to alcohol for a week), because his group is now level 8th and fights are getting though. And that was the first encounter of the day...

A couple things wrong with this.

1) Casting doesn't end your rage; you just can't cast while raging. So he'd have to end his rage first and then cast.

2) Using rage or ending rage doesn't cause exhaustion. It's only when he also uses frenzy that he gains exhaustion. And if he's using frenzy, then he gets more than one attack. That's the whole point of frenzy.

Re: "Useless" character concepts

1) Casting doesn't end your rage; you just can't cast while raging. So he'd have to end his rage first and then cast.

True; that's what's Krogg's player is doing

Originally Posted by mgshamster

2) Using rage or ending rage doesn't cause exhaustion. It's only when he also uses frenzy that he gains exhaustion. And if he's using frenzy, then he gets more than one attack. That's the whole point of frenzy.

Not on the first round; Krogg had to spend his bonus action to activate his rage and therefore cannot use it to gain bonus attack on the first round.

Originally Posted by mgshamster

This seems more weak due to play style than it does the build.

Absolutely. It could be a viable built if done/player better. I guess that's a point in favour of 5e; it's actually hard to make a truly useless character unless you consciously sabotage it.

Re: "Useless" character concepts

Please quote where it says this. It says nothing about "ignoring your Multiclassed Spells Slots Value " - which I'm not even sure is a thing because as far as you're concerned your "multiclass spell slots" are just "spell slots".

What it does say is that you prepare as a single-classed member of that class. Read Cleric's spell preparation section and it says that the spells you choose must be of a level for which you have spell slots.

In your reply please work with me as I'm not the person who originally started this. I don't need huge, bolded letters to read and I'm working from what I believe another person's view to be.

Fighting Style: Two-Weapon Fighting: Add your Strength bonus to the damage of your off-hand attack.
Action Surge: Take an extra action once per rest.
Second Wind: Use bonus action once per rest to recover 1d10+5 HP.
Weapon Bond: You are bonded to your family longsword.
Feat: Mounted Combatant
Feat: Magic Adept
Extra Attack: When you take the attack action, attack twice.

Superiority Dice: 4d8
Maneuver Save DC: 7
Maneuvers Known:
*) Parry: When hit successfully, spend a die to reduce damage by 1d8-1.
*) Lunge: Spend a die to add 5 ft range. If you hit, add 1d8 damage.
*) Riposte: When someone misses you in melee, you can spend a die to make an attack. If it hits, add 1d8 damage.

Cantrips Known: Blade Ward, True Strike
Spell Known: Mage Armor

Johann Fitzpatrick is a member of the Fitzpatrick line of knights. He really wanted to be a wizard. Really, really wanted to be a wizard. But his father was convinced that he would be a KNIGHT. A true, brave, and loyal knight. He pushed Johann into physical training until he was ready to die, and then made it clear that Johann would be shaming the family if he ever stopped.

Johann isÖ not a very good knight. Despite his training with sword and dagger, he doesnít really have what it takes to land a blow. He can hold his own against enemies without his extensive training, but thatís about it. What he does have is book smarts, natural charm, and endurance built up from years of pointless, garbage training, plus a tiny handful of scrounged spells originally designed by a wizard who wanted to be a knight, coupled with a lack of understanding of just how bad he really is. He never gives up. Unfortunately.

Johann isnít totally useless. He has a couple of decent skills, and good HP. But of his three maneuvers, one relies on an Ability he doesnít have, one makes him slightly better at making attacks that donít usually hit, and one only works if someone misses him, which will almost never happen because his AC is 12. His HP is less great because nearly every attack is going to hit him. His Feat only works on horseback, and isnít great even then. His Fighting Style is actively counter-productive. His spells reproduce things he already has or require him to stop fighting to set up combat ability. He is just generally going to be a millstone around everyone's necks.

(If you advance Johann, he'll probably pick up Resilient (Wisdom) at Level 6, the extremely terrible Know Your Enemy at Level 7 along with a fifth superiority die, and at Level 8 you can boost his Charisma to 17...)

Re: "Useless" character concepts

Originally Posted by SpamCreateWater

Please quote where it says this. It says nothing about "ignoring your Multiclassed Spells Slots Value " - which I'm not even sure is a thing because as far as you're concerned your "multiclass spell slots" are just "spell slots".

What it does say is that you prepare as a single-classed member of that class. Read Cleric's spell preparation section and it says that the spells you choose must be of a level for which you have spell slots.

In your reply please work with me as I'm not the person who originally started this. I don't need huge, bolded letters to read and I'm working from what I believe another person's view to be.

can i please kiss you for being the first person ever involved in this argument who bothered opening their own PHB and looking at the Spell Preparation rules for Paladin/Druid/Cleric/Wizard and the Multiclass Rules and realized that they dont work?

Re: "Useless" character concepts

Originally Posted by toapat

can i please kiss you for being the first person ever involved in this argument who bothered opening their own PHB and looking at the Spell Preparation rules for Paladin/Druid/Cleric/Wizard and the Multiclass Rules and realized that they dont work?

I'll check with my partner, but I'm sure that will be an acceptable action

Re: "Useless" character concepts

Very simple, the "Prepared and Casting Spells" section of a class (so too the "Spells Known" section of a class) is calculated 'as if individually'. This determines any restrictions to your spell lists. It determines which spell list you have access to, what spell levels you have access to, and what spells are accrued in your spellbook (if necessary). This explains why the Multiclassing example includes a definition of 10 known wizard spells, 2 of which are 2nd lvl.

Specifically, the second paragraph in that section provides formula on these values. The first value is Preparation: this is caster level + caster mod (minimum 1). The second is Spell Levels Known, which is contingent upon knowing the Spell Slots Available according to the single class table.

The only way to gain info from the single class table and discover Spell Levels Known is to find the Spell Slots Available. The only way allowed by multiclassing to calculate it is 'as if individually classed'. Thus you isolate the class levels from the total character levels. Then you can read the values from the single class table.

Once that is done, the 'as if individually classed' levels define what line to read on the single class table. Which in turn defines Spell Slots Available. Which in turn defines the Spells Levels Known. This is a nuclear process -- an unbroken chain necessary to finish the Prepared Spells section.

Only once you finish this step do you move into the Multiclass exception for Spell Slots. The exception was given to Spell Slots Known after the previous calculation, not before, so there is no interruption of the Spell.Levels Known contingent calculation. You only get to return to the Multiclassing chapter "Multiclassing Spell Slots" AFTER you finish completion of the previous clause "Spells Known and Prepared Spells" read specifically with 'as if individually classed' clause attached.

Order of operations is further disambiguated by the example given AND carried over through to the next clause section's step for further reinforcement of intent.

The Cleric table shows how many spell slots you have to cast your spells of 1st level and higher. To cast one of these spells, you must expend a slot of the spellís level or higher. You regain all expended spell slots when you finish a long rest.

You prepare the list of cleric spells that are available for you to cast, choosing from the cleric spell list. When you do so, choose a number of cleric spells equal to your Wisdom modifier + your cleric level (minimum of one spell). The spells must be of a level for which you have spell slots.

For example, if you are a 3rd-level cleric, you have four 1st-level and two 2nd-level spell slots. With a Wisdom of 16, your list of prepared spells can include six spells of 1st or 2nd level, in any combination. If you prepare the 1st-level spell cure wounds, you can cast it using a 1st-level or 2nd-level slot. Casting the spell doesnít remove it from your list of prepared spells.

Re: "Useless" character concepts

Originally Posted by Easy_Lee

I'll try to keep these pure-classed so it's fair.

TWF Strength-based Purple Dragon Knight with the criminal background (drafted in to PDKs due to his pure heart and "potential"): this character is not so much useless as far behind the curve. TWF does not work well with action surge and competes with second wind for the bonus action.

There are also few feats that a strength-based TWF character can take to differentiate himself. He'll have 19 AC, some DPR, and that's about it.

Fire Dragon Origin Sorcerer with all of the fire spells: the key to playing a dragon sorcerer well is to diversify your spell list. We're not going to do that. We're going to take firebolt, burning hands, scorching ray, fireball, and never replace any of them. We're also going to take Empowered and Quickened, pretty standard for a blaster.

Our character is a pyromaniac, full stop. And any time enemies are immune to fire, he's useless and can't do anything about it. Now let's put the nail in the coffin: the antagonists in the campaign are fire giants, fire elementals, and red dragons.

This is easy: You go and become friends with the red Dragons with your Dragonic Ancestry feature giving you expertease when you use Charisma skills with Dragons. Since you're a Pyromaniac, you're probably decended from Red Dragons (Chaotic Evil) and not anything north in the aligmental compass, so you're probably like cousins either way.

So, you go hang with your cousins, ask them to eat the Fire Giants for you (lore wise, Dragons Hate Giants either way, and the hate is mutual), and then you start a campfire ignoring the fire elementals, as you don't give a rat's @ss about what they're doing.

In this specific campain setting this build is not useless, it's more like the freaking Dovakin gone Miraak (before the betrayal of the dragons) all over again.