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Wednesday, January 20, 2016

It's not personal

The Godfather taught us that some things are just business, not personal. I've had to explain to a lot of people in the past few years that so much of what I do does not generate from any feelings of sadism or pleasure in the pain of others, but simple pragmatism/instrumentalism in which someone or something has just been in the wrong place at the wrong time.

I thought this recent-ish comment described something similar:

"to sit and smalltalk with other people about weather, for no other purpose than "to do so", does not fit the average psychopath"Well it certainly doesn't appeal to me. I love having one-to-one conversations about interesting topics but I admit it's for the purpose of deepening my understanding and widening my views.Here's another sign of (my) socio Christmas: I never buy presents to my friends/family. I say that it's because I don't like the stress and Christmas should be about chilling out etc but really I just don't see the point and don't want to spend my money on others – except for my clients, in which case I consider it a marketing expense.I'm not bothered about receiving presents either. I think quite often people think that sociopaths are people that want attention and gifts etc but I'm the opposite. And anyway I think people often confuse sociopaths and narcissists. I don't like giving affection and I don't want it back. I also don't like being admired and it actually sometimes really irritates me if I get those kind of vibes.I guess I'm the type of a sociopath who doesn't feel the need for other people but I don't feel the need to hurt them either. It just sometimes happens that when people annoy me for whatever reason I ignore them or dump them or dismiss them and do something that they think is hurtful. But its never for the sake of harming others but more like the people just get on the way of what I want. This wasn't meant to sound like me giving excuses, I'm just thinking out loud.Another thing I thought here is that maybe this is just more what a sociopathic traits look like when they manifest in a female who is also introverted?

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The only times I can think of in which feelings of pleasure from the suffering of others is involved, it's also due to anger born from a bruised ego, and retaliating out of anger and thus sabotaging my power of diplomacy greatly displeases me. I'm sure there is other factors involved, but they're either negligible or I just can't get a better emotional understanding of why there's a pull towards sadism for me. True sadists feel pleasure for other people's emotional and/or physical suffering because in some way they truly emotionally understand the suffering they perceive or have inflicted; they see what they've done to harm others, feel relief in the fact they don't have to be the ones suffering but instead those they look down upon, and consequently derive pleasure from it.

I'm quick to see the source and cause of what irritated me, dismiss or compartmentalize the anger, and seek the most pragmatic solution to my problem instead. I don't truly understand or feel like I can relate to the suffering I cause others, and there are often times like in conversations there's a fall in my contribution to what's being talked about because it seems like I'm running in circles in my mind trying to figure out the best way to avoid coming off too callous. So I either sit in silence, divert the conversation to a different direction, or try to change the subject. So when it comes to doing what I need to do for myself, my actions are not typically triggered by any kind of sadism at all because there is no true emotional incentive to do so. I don't feel any real relief knowing I'm not the one suffering or that instead others who I dislike are going through it instead because I simply lack the genuine affective empathy to emotionally grasp what they're going through. It's like when I'm watching a horror movie and watching the victims suffer their fates doesn't ever emotionally move me in any way, but I can appreciate the cinematography, how well the actors portray their characters, the story, the stimulation from figuring out the mysteries as the plot moves along, etc. I might appreciate some dark or dry humor that I pick up on while watching, but the emotional realities of the characters don't seem to matter so much to me at all. They're just puppets on the TV screen that entertain me over and over again with a performance I can keep replaying.

Especially with the knowledge that fear isn't truly real to me because I know it's the perception of false evidence or expectations of the future is just futile, because those things at present may not be real or ever real. I'm cognizant of legitimate danger, but such thoughts of perceived alleged evidence or expectations are not tangible to me. So with that in mind, how could I ever truly feel genuine sadism? The relief and pleasure others get from indulging in sadism is also born from their own fear, that feeling for the suffering of others gives them legitimate reasoning to believe that they too could genuinely believe that the same suffering their victims go through could and will happen to them. It seems so silly to me.

I know that too, but rationalization doesn't make me fearless, in the same way that knowing there's food in my fridge doesn't kill my hunger. It's like being colorblind and saying you don't see colors because you know you can do just fine by seeing in black and white.I'd like to feel less anxious at times, but I can't turn off emotions at will. I've learnt to handle them better but still, I can't turn into a sociopath at will (conversely, you wouldn't turn into an empath by changing your mindset, you don't feel what you can't feel and I can't avoid feeling what I do feel). People suffering from anxiety or depression are not unable to see that the things they fear may never happen.I think it's the other way around, you don't feel fear because even if something "really bad" happened to you, you wouldn't be affected as much as a neurotypical due to your higher tolerance for stress (or higher pain threshold), which is a great advantage in some regards. The other side of the coin is that you are more prone to boredom because stress provides stimulation. I never feel bored, even if I'm just by myself doing nothing (or specially in that situation), but I wouldn't say the reason has to do with my mindset.

"Especially with the knowledge that fear isn't truly real to me because I know it's the perception of false evidence or expectations of the future is just futile, because those things at present may not be real or ever real."

I suppose that goes to show how little I seem to understand the true emotional reality of others; why not rationalize until you see the foolishness of your fear and emotions surrounding that fear? From my sociopathic perspective, it seems so clear cut and simple but obviously I'm missing a piece of the bigger picture when it comes to other people's feelings... their empathy can be so strange to me.

I feel all the time. Of course it is sometimes helpful to rationalize. But at that moment I am suppressing my feelings. It is just there, like i can see, hear. But of course it is subjective.

My idea with the xNarc is, that he is kind of emotional blind or there is a void. I can't explain. But he was able to notice things in an intellectuall way, I am not capable of. That s why he is a great manipulator.

"why not rationalize until you see the foolishness of your fear and emotions surrounding that fear?"

I think experience does a better job overwriting fear than deliberate thinking.For example, with arachnophobia.. I KNOW there aren't any deadly species in my country but just the fucking pattern of a spider makes me anxious. It doesn't happen with any other animals. So I've decided to observe them and get closer.. and now I hate them a little less haha, but it's a weird sensation when I suddenly encounter one.

Perhaps experience does a better job overwriting fear than deliberate thinking for normal people? Maybe it's myself confidence to have mind over matter so to speak. Arachnophobia, or really just squeamishness in general, makes no particular rational sense to me, especially where I live any and most small vermin are mostly or entirely harmless. That tiny spider nesting in the corner of the ceiling is probably just catching the flies in your house, not plotting to crawl into your mouth while you sleep. That slug creeping towards you isn't going to leap up and bite you.

I rationally assess the possibility of danger from the situations I encounter react accordingly. I'm cognizant of legitimate danger, but ruminating upon alleged evidence or expectations of a future that hasn't happened yet or may never occur does not suit me.

So I quite agree with you M.E., when you say your actions are not really generated from sadism or pleasure derived from the suffering of others; to be genuinely sadistic would also require a fuller ability to truly empathize with others emotionally.

I'd like to think I like being admired, if only for the reason that if someone likes me for who I am in the moment then it makes interacting with them more likely to go in my favor for what I desire out of them. Anything else that accompanies that admiration is either icing on the cake or the candles that I'll blow out and remove before feasting anyways.

At least for me, compliments are nothing more than someone else's attempt at stroking my ego to appease me in some way, perhaps to butter me up for something they have in mind for me... however, thinking the way I do doesn't mean everyone else will think exactly the same way, that they may not even be trying to manipulate me in a way that I would do to them if I was giving the compliment. I often just take compliments for their face value and think little more of it unless I perceive a legitimate reason to believe otherwise.

I wrote the original comment in this post. Regards to compliments: yesterday someone complimented my work. It didn't annoy me but it didn't flatter me either. I guess it was non-emotional for me but that's why it's almost uncomfortable – there is no natural reaction from me when the other person obviosuly expects something in return.

I guess people think I'm humble but actually the thing is that I KNOW if I do well or not. If the outcome is what I intended, I've done a good job, if not, I have failed. I don't need anyone else telling me if I'm good or not. Of course people have different likes and dislikes but I'm not going to let someone else (unless it's a client whose needs I'm intending to meet) to decide whether I'm good or not. It puzzles me why so many people take others' opinions so seriously – almost like they're addicted to praise.

I have only recently learnt that people are such suckers for compliments. Because they don't matter to me, I naturally thought it's the same for others but it's crazy how easy it is to literally sweet talk people into doing things.

About smalltalk: I think it comes down to sensing fakeness* and it's something I personally cannot stand. I like honest and straightforward people and often small talk is everything but.

At the moment I'm actually spending four days with a group of colleagues around the world and these people are all super fun and I enjoy spending time with them. It's because none of them pretend anything and they can make fun of themselves, which I like. It has been quite a surprise for me because usually by day two I want to disappear and abandon the group.

*other obviously fake things I don't like: sci-fi films, commercials and social media. There are many others but these came to mind.

I keep track of "social credits" as I call them. If their social credit balance has built up I'll remember to give them back some sort of acknowledgement. I know it's fake bs I'm giving back, but people generally like to hear it, they don't know that I'm only doing so more as a hedge against losing any favor/ advantage from them.

I don't like receiving gifts because a lot of times it seems the other person feels some sort of expectation of equivalent reciprocity when their birthday/xmas comes around. Conversely I like giving small cheap gifts that are perceived as big or thoughtful gifts because I know they will provide some benefit to me down the road at some point. I call this "Favor Investments" and some are short term pay off while others are playing the long game. In reality it's all just social leverage from a certain perspective.

I feel socios and nons use compliments as a way to connect with others. I truly believe not everyone expects something in return. And ultimately we all have the ability to give of ourself without ourself being diminished.

The person with NPD/or socio-traits (?) I have met, used flattery and insults as a tool of manipulation, just to see, how far he can go. For example, he wanted little gifts from me, to proove my commitment. This went on and on, the shifts were subtle...until I was the frog in the boiled water. My subconcious was always telling me, there is something odd, but I couldn't put my finger on it.

It felt like a cat/mouse game. I was the mouse. He changed the rules very quickly. At that time I did not understand his pattern. Now I can read him like a book, because he is just following his cycles.

What I know now, I was groomed to be his supply. And later on I understood that it was not personal. And that was first the hardest part, but than my biggest relief.

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I don't enjoy smalltalk either (who does?) but I can engage in it, especially with people I don't care to get to know but with whom I need to maintain a relationship.

I don't particularly care about compliments either.

I do like giving gifts, at least among my family. People always say I give thoughtful gifts (and I do) but I think it is because I kind of view it as a competition. As if it is one-upmanship with who can listen the best and synthesize the best response in the form of a present. It is like I'm winning at a game the other people don't know they are playing.

Hi everyone. I'm a nearly 20yo male sociopath.I'm able to pick a person in a crowd and make him emotionally dependent from me in just days, usually 3. I manipulate people in order to get what i want.i don't have any regret NOR guilt feels in what i do. I constantly search for pleasure and adrenaline. I had a Hugh number Of sexual partners. I stole hearts just for fun. Everyone likes me. I always had the highest results at school and found an employment. I reached the max grade in months only.thanks for the pleasuring reading. I discovered lots of different sociopaths :)

I was just tryin to give you a panoramic vision of my personality, not sounding narcissist. I always do everything calculating the benefits, but i noticed that i'm not able to feel something pure. I'm writing here for knowing other people that would like to feel "something" truthful instead of using people to achieve his own interests. It wasn't my intention to sound hostile

I have always wondered if sociopaths are immune to depression or if they can experience loneliness and sadness . Maybe the sociopath can have the ability to feel and truly love. Maybe it's not a matter of non existing emotions or empathy , but a deep suppression instead .

Sociopaths seem to avoid depression because they tend not to sit around and ruminate. Depression is sitting around thinking negative thoughts without being aware of it. Sociopaths are often out chasing things (out of desire) so they're either anticipating getting what they want, frustrated by people in their way or scheming to get stuff - none of that is sitting around thinking about mistakes they made, bridges they burned, etc. This explains why sociopaths can go decades before they realize there's something different (and odd) about them - and that perhaps it would be better to engage with life in a different way. You see the same pattern with alcoholics - if they realize what's up, they'll say - earnestly - "wow, I realized I'm an alcoholic" - as if it is news. It really is news to them - they've been so busy being alcoholics (and dealing with the consequences of that lifestyle) that they don't get time to reflect on how they live versus others.

I think in my case depression has been caused by a deep inner conflict between how I feel and how I've been taught I should feel. I have spent so long making myself outwardly fit in that I feel like I no longer know who I am or what I truly want. For a long time it has frozen me in a state where all I did is ruminate. Recently I decided to attempt to figure out what is 'wrong' with me and discovered how much my inner being fits with sociopathy. Just my experience.

What about "romantic" jealousy? My guess would be that it's more of a narcissistic trait. Specially if you are not in love with the person and it's just an ego thing. Like, why care if you don't love him/her and you are not obsessed with yourself.. Any thoughts?

I was speaking with a friend today, and she was expressing anger over a sociopathic love interest who is causing her emotional turmoil. I explained to her what he says or does isn't really to harm her with malicious intent; genuine sadism requires a firm grasp of the emotional reality of others in order to get the relief and pleasure that comes from feeling satisfaction for the suffering of others, as that's how I understand it to be. We lack the affective empathy to even be capable of the sadism that a normal person with fully functioning empathy can experience.

Can cognitive empathy allow for the emotional experience of sadism? Perhaps, but I would be inclined to think that it doesn't. I may be cognizant of the emotional reality of someone else, but is that really meaningful enough to me to matter if it is something I'll never genuinely experience for myself? The clear answer to me is no. So sadism does not truly factor into why I behave the way I do around others. It's nothing personal.

Bull? Perhaps. I remember something said before, about ruining people. Ruining people. I like how those two words roll off my tongue, how I relish the delicious sound of it. If I'm capable of sadism, it isn't born from relief or pleasure from perceiving or causing the suffering of others. It's really just the stimulation, the thrill, the rush. Those things are not exclusive to sadism, so more often then not the typical stimulation I chase after doesn't involve sadism at all.

Such an interesting perspective you have. Earlier this morning I was enjoying the company of a beautiful friend of mine and a cigar, and there came a point in the conversation that I brought up how the personal perception of reality that others see it as isn't necessarily truly reflective of that of your own, how you see it.

Is it enlightening? Is it really? I don't find it to be so. You could ask me to be compelled by Christ, but I wouldn't be anymore compelled than I would be enlightened by what you perceive to be sadism.

From what I understand, as a sociopath, is that only normal people such as yourself are capable of genuine sadism. What sadism I could possibly experience is pale in comparison.

Consider this,

In history, and even now as we speak, more people have suffered by the hands of those who do so for moralistic reasons rather than sociopathic reasons. More people have died for religous agendas, demonizing racism, and injustice from within the criminal justice systems.

I could ask you a question. In what way does your affective empathy induced sadism any more justified then my cognitive empathy induced "sadism"?

I think sadism from normal people is one of the factors that contributes to so much unnecessary, pointless suffering that may not even be instrumental to some clear objective or contributing any prosocial action for that matter.

When normal people lash out sadistically at me, I show them the behavior I'd rather see in them; I'm kind, polite, diplomatic. I smile and try my best to validate their need for their emotional state, without sabotaging my stance and keeping my own best interests in mine. Their thirst for quenching their sadism fades, and they see their own poor behavior towards me.

The very idea, the genuine sadism that only normal people can experience, does not appeal to me. "Sadism" I experience contributes to my own best interests and survival, and those benefits sometimes extend to others around me when I see a direct benefit from working with the greater "good", for the prosocial benefit for others.

ESTP sociopath ,i find interesting that you seem to care so much about if you are true sadistic or not . Your perspective is so similar to the one of a sociopath i used to know. He had this same attitude , to give a light and sometimes absolving for himself explanation for the cyclic patterns he followed in his life and for the mess he often created in others and finally in himself. Why it bothers you so much if you are defined as true sadistic due to your sociopathy or not?

Also i see that you tend to believe that only neurotypicals seem to be true sadistic becouse they can derive pleasure from sadistic acts due to their full capacity for empathy, cognitive and affective.Even if it is like this what's the point? Sadism is when someone inficts pain of any origin to somebody else being fullly cognizant that it will provoke harm and he is not repelled and probably likes the idea ( when sociopathic) or both the idea and the feeling of it( if he is neurotypical). Finally, the outcome is the same : Deliberate harm to a human being irrespective of the intentions of the person in question. The action of deliberate harm renders both to be horrible people ,sociopathic or not.

This argument that you are not considered true sadistic becouse you dont feel the full emotion of the harm you provoke to the other person is simplistic and immature. Since you are not retarded and you have intact cognitive function and you can cognitively understand what you are doing, you are fully responsible for your deed and certainly not absolved by being characterised as sadistic.On the contrary i think . As you are not driven by your emotions or an impulse of the moment , so you act "logically" ( the argument of many sociopaths as if the non sociopaths are illogical becouse they experience full emotions.. another converstation this) you are fully capable to stop yourself from an action which you cognitively know that will be perceived as sadistic from the other person. But you do not stop becouse it serves your ultimate goals , whatever they could be. So, what does this say to yourself for the kind of person you are regardless your intentionts?

And about the conversation you had with your friend being tortured by a sociopath:Your explanation to her that her friend just acts like this not intentionally but becouse he is a selfish guy does not make any sense at all. The guy is not retarded or mentally crippled. If he is a sociopath he is just empty of empathy and guild. But, he knows very well cognitively what he is doing and he continues it. He does not stop. He acts like an asshole. And what makes him an asshole is what he is continually doing in full awareness, not what he is feeling while he does it. And in my opinion this has nothing to do with being a sociopath or not. The world is full of assholes with empathy. For them also exactly the same thing appeals.

The thing of the matter lies in what we decide to do finally with our diffenr brain wiring and our different personalities. This in the long term characterises us sadistic or not, honest or fake, prococial or antisocial, assholes or nice people. I hope you can understand that i do not mean it in a black or white manner.Our inner making up is something that only people who are close to us for long are able to fully grasp, if they are.Depending to what they want themselves according to their internal build up, desires , beliefs , feelings , goals,they will stay or they will go regardless if we are socioapathic or neurotypicals.Rationalisation is a good thing but sometimes end ups being pure BS as rationalisation doesnt equal logic. The fact that something could be explainable does not render it neither logic , nor justifiable and certainly not acceptable.

"Why it bothers you so much if you are defined as true sadistic due to your sociopathy or not?"

I suppose it doesn't matter to me. People will hear what I have to say, see what I do, and cast their judgement of me, good or bad, whether I like it or not. Like you have. By all means I take nothing of what you say personally, as I've heard opinions similar to yours many times before.

"So, what does this say to yourself for the kind of person you are regardless your intentionts?"

I'm a ruthless individual, willing to jeopardize the lives of others if it would further my own goals or the goals of the group I'm piggy back riding to fulfill my own personal agenda. Hmmm...

Sadism is pleasure in cruelty or in the pain of others. No one likes to be hurt, especially not deliberately.

I don't know of people experiencing the type of sadism ESTP Sociopath describes but there are all types in this world.

ESTP Sociopath often considers the motives behind good or bad actions; he seems to be exploring - correct me if I'm wrong ESTP - what the differences are between himself and others, even though he is comfortable with who he is.

Curiosity is a wonderful thing.

If I might point out another theme on this blog, which is the action is what counts rather than the motivation.

Now, I am not a subscriber to any particular morality. I am with William James in saying truth is what works. Our behaviour has ripple effects in our social groups. Where we cause ourselves or those in our circles grief, the behaviour is less skilled. Where our behaviour opens opportunities and helps us better mitigate threats, it is more skilled.

The reality is we are social creatures. If one of our pleasures is sadism - regardless of motivation - people will be motivated to move away from us and may become threats.*

In the cluster of traits that are considered psychopathic, it's probably sadism that is most problematic to the psychopath. We're social animals. Sadism is antisocial behaviour and sadistic actors (in the technical sense of that word) are more likely to be ostracised.

It is, of course, much easier to move to entirely new social groups than it was in the past. So perhaps even sadism is less of a constraint in the life of a sociopath than it is likely to have been historically.

*example: I acted against the psychopath in my life - not from a sense of pleasure but in a scream at the unfairness of his treatment of me. It was callous but I didn't derive pleasure from it.

oh ESTP, such a typical answer from a sociopath when his BS is being challenged : Always the same poem :'I'm a ruthless individual, willing to jeopardize the lives of others if it would further my own goals or the goals of the group I'm piggy back riding to fulfill my own personal agenda. Hmmm".. tell me about it!my legs are saking out from fear and owe .... Why all this fuss then ? You are a scum and you like it ( covert one of course). Period. No justifications needed with elaborate posts about your 'different nature". Too much blah , blah ,blah just for no reason at all, except receiving sympathy and attention from nice people like North who even though she looks quite intelligent she seeems to have bought your psycopathic sophistries.

My understanding of sociopathy has been that it involves it is considered to be a form of narcissism but involves distinct kinds of internalized object relations. Several psychologists have written as much in books on the subject, as have forensics-focused writers like J. Reid Meloy. I'm also related to a fellow who profiles potentially dangerous individuals in asylums -- a fellow who's always talking about the inherent flaws in this or that test for sociopathy -- and he, too, considers it to be a particular kind of narcissism with specific features that ordinary narcissism disincludes. He also thinks there have to be traits of antisocial personality disorder present to indicate sociopathy (e.g., a profound indifference to irresponsibility that can becomes highly conspicuous on an institutional/case worker level). However, I wonder whether he feels that way partly because he's exposed primarily to violent sociopaths who present unusually damaged levels of self-control.

"However, I wonder whether he feels that way partly because he's exposed primarily to violent sociopaths who present unusually damaged levels of self-control."

I would bet he is highly influenced by that environment. I am narcissistic in very few aspects of my life, but I freely admit to being antisocial. However, if you asked the people who are routinely in my life, they would say I'm not antisocial - until they really think about it. I have a good degree of self control until someone pushes me too far or wrongs me, then I can explode into someone that doesn't resemble the outward appearance I present at all. At those times physical violence doesn't appeal to me, but mental and emotional attacks are a different story.

Undoubtedly, sociopathic women (and gay men; str8 women almost NEVER have to pay for sex) make the best prostitutes. They can readily adapt to their clients' particular prefs/needs sexually and companionship-wise and lacking any or much sense of self-empathy can readily do whatever acts their clients may want done or do to them. Yes, I can see socio women being quite successful in the Turning Tricks Dept.

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Of course, my default is still to intuitively analyze every outcome and situation and achieve the best result, but it's more interesting to let people remain a variable and go in their own direction, rather than nudging them in the direction I prefer. Interacting with people WITHOUT trying to control them is a new paradigm for me.