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They had 60 years to rig the entire system and ensure allegiance - that's going to take more than 5 years to course correct. When your educational institutions are rigged, then the babus graduating from them are going to be rigged for 40 - 50 years of service. We need 15-20 years of non-congis to stand a chance of fixing the issue. 5 down, 15 more to go.

Philip wrote:Finally commonsense is prevailing in the minds of the IAF and MOD.We've been saying the same for aeons, " buy more of the same", in service esp. MIG-29s.At around $40 M for a UPG it's a reasonable price.2 yrs. ago Egypt got them at $30M a pop, probably to a lower std.The IAF should buy more 29s.A total of around 120 combined, existing UPGs and new ones will give the IAF at least 6 sqds.

Rakesh wrote:Kartik, if Indranil's picture posted in the previous page are the MiG-29s in question....these air frames have ZERO hours.

I thought the airframes in question were used?

That is what I thought as well. But then there is this picture below. Either they were used very little and then stripped down to just the basic air frame, which makes no sense whatsoever. Or construction of these 21 birds were stopped after the basic air frame was completed and left in storage for the past 30+ years.

Indranil wrote:This a picture of the frames being talked about from a year back. Courtesy Livefist.

Indranil wrote:This is a great deal. Mig-29 UPG are great aircrafts. By the way, CAG report says that Mig-35 completed all ASQR for MMRCA. Mig-29 UPg is not too far behind. Even if costs escallate to $50 million a plane. That is 2 Mig-29s for the price of one Rafale. If you include armaments, it is close to 4 Migs per Rafale. That's a HUGE difference. 21 Mig-29 UPGs are MUCH MUCH more capable and flexible than 5 Rafales.

This a picture of the frames being talked about from a year back. Courtesy Livefist.

Which CAG report? Would love to read that !

And yes, the MiG-29UPG is a great aircraft..it basically retains the famed maneuverability of the MiG-29 but addresses its 2 big drawbacks which were the poor fuel fraction which led to poor range and endurance and the poor MMI. Plus the Zhuk-ME which is quite a decent radar, new IRST, modern EW suite and the ability to carry modern weapons including air to ground weapons.

Should be easy enough to absorb, since it will utilize BRD resources for the upgrade, and not HAL, which is already loaded fully. Plus it utilises the experience and infrastructure already existing, including spares depots and simulators..and since its an existing type, no big strain on the training since the IAF can leverage its existing pool of pilots and maintainers. And as someone pointed out earlier, if this helps replace even 1 squadron of MiG-21s or MiG-27s, it is well worth it.

You guys do realize the ASQR were often a replica of the Mirage 2000-V specs and hence set the bar very low for 4.5 Gen aircraft which were meant to be half a generation ahead of the Mirage 2000 V!

Many such instances, including the radar capability for instance.

The Zhuk AE prototype on the MiG-35 met ASQR but question is what was the performance of the ECR-90 on the EF and the RBE-2 AESA on the Rafale vs the MiG-35s radar, even though all EF radar was not an AESA and the Zhuk-AE, "met ASQR" in some respects.

Lets just say that while the internet was going bonkers celebrating the IAFs comprehensive ASQR, some of the parameters asked for, were not exactly that world-breaking.

The L-1 mentality that often drives Govt procurement ends up ignoring the performance delta of the top tier and in an urge to broadbase the competition, the parameters are also relaxed. Allowing the MiG-35s to skate through.

Quick question - of these 6 platforms, which DIDNT have sensor fusion already (of any proper kind) or even on its roadmap?

Rakesh wrote:That is what I thought as well. But then there is this picture below. Either they were used very little and then stripped down to just the basic air frame, which makes no sense whatsoever. Or construction of these 21 birds were stopped after the basic air frame was completed and left in storage for the past 30+ years.

They were completed but were unused so they were disassembled. Just an FYI shoddy build quality is prevalent with early mig-29 Algeria bought some used mig-29smt and returned them because of their poor quality. So buyer beware...

John, that is really weird. Not that I am discounting what you are saying. But what is the reason for disassembling 21 functional aircraft? If they did not want it, could they not have sold it off to another country?

Also, this may be a long shot...but I will still ask. Do we know in which areas the build quality was poor? I would be concerned if it was in the air frame. However, media reports indicate that the IAF is quite happy with the material condition of these birds.

Rakesh wrote:John, that is really weird. Not that I am discounting what you are saying. But what is the reason for disassembling 21 functional aircraft? If they did not want it, could they not have sold it off to another country?

Also, this may be a long shot...but I will still ask. Do we know in which areas the build quality was poor? I would be concerned if it was in the air frame. However, media reports indicate that the IAF is quite happy with the material condition of these birds.

No idea on why they were disassembled, all current reports state the wings were disassembled. Unless you do full inspection and testing I am not sure you can uncover any quality issues. Fact that no one bought these only raises my suspicion.

"For three decades, these aircraft have lain unused; their wings stored separate from their bodies. Now, the IAF has been invited to buy them at the price they were built — which is below $25 million (Rs 175 crore). That is cheaper even than the Tejas Mark 1 fighter."

As for Algeria a correction they bought new SMTs but found the build quality to be horrendous and suffered from numerous issues they (Algerian) blamed it on parts that were manufactured in 90s rather than being new. They returned them for Flankers. Common trend seems to be Migs built near end and right after cold war had numerous quality issues.

Mig seems to have improved quality in last decade or so but the fact they were buying old mig-29s with updated equipment doesn't help that argument and we could end up in same boat as Algerians. I would much rather buy more Su-30s and look at perhaps even Su-35 for this amount of money (probably can get them for 2 billion sure it's double the price but it's new airframe).

Rakesh wrote:That is what I thought as well. But then there is this picture below. Either they were used very little and then stripped down to just the basic air frame, which makes no sense whatsoever. Or construction of these 21 birds were stopped after the basic air frame was completed and left in storage for the past 30+ years.

They were completed but were unused so they were disassembled. Just an FYI shoddy build quality is prevalent with early mig-29 Algeria bought some used mig-29smt and returned them because of their poor quality. So buyer beware...

That was more political than anything..those same MiG-29SMTs are serving with the VKS now.

^ Could be but VKS will be last to complain about mig-29 quality. Considering the cost involved we are paying almost top price for vanilla 29s and to upgrade them on top of that. I would much rather see money spent on new airframes.

ArjunPandit wrote:^^even more than mig29? I always thought Su30 was the most maneuverable

The MKI lacks the incredible T:W ratio of the Mig-29. Those 2 RD-33's pack a huge punch on an airframe the size of the Mig-29. I'm not sure how much the added weight of the upgrade (including the dorsal fuel tank) affects the T:W ratio though. But any hit to its agility is more than compensated for by the additional fuel which fixes the Mig-29's biggest problem of low endurance.

ArjunPandit wrote:^^even more than mig29? I always thought Su30 was the most maneuverable

Arjun do read up on the Mig29 and its design philosophy. It will also give you a great insight into Soviet combat tactics.It will also give you perhaps some insight into how the IAF goes about its business.The Su is a great bird but not the same mystique as the Baaz

If these fulcrums are available at said price, they would make a fabulous deal. All this about build quality issues, Algerian migs etc can easily be discarded. In all the complaints that the iaf has about the bird, I never heard of build quality being one. If there were aurfram issues, it was mainly for the Navy, and even those seem to be rectified.. India is not Algeria, the iaf has solid expertise and infrastructure for the fulcrum. They know what they are doing.

Rakesh wrote:John, that is really weird. Not that I am discounting what you are saying. But what is the reason for disassembling 21 functional aircraft? If they did not want it, could they not have sold it off to another country?

Also, this may be a long shot...but I will still ask. Do we know in which areas the build quality was poor? I would be concerned if it was in the air frame. However, media reports indicate that the IAF is quite happy with the material condition of these birds.

No idea on why they were disassembled, all current reports state the wings were disassembled. Unless you do full inspection and testing I am not sure you can uncover any quality issues. Fact that no one bought these only raises my suspicion.

"For three decades, these aircraft have lain unused; their wings stored separate from their bodies. Now, the IAF has been invited to buy them at the price they were built — which is below $25 million (Rs 175 crore). That is cheaper even than the Tejas Mark 1 fighter."

As for Algeria a correction they bought new SMTs but found the build quality to be horrendous and suffered from numerous issues they (Algerian) blamed it on parts that were manufactured in 90s rather than being new. They returned them for Flankers. Common trend seems to be Migs built near end and right after cold war had numerous quality issues.

Mig seems to have improved quality in last decade or so but the fact they were buying old mig-29s with updated equipment doesn't help that argument and we could end up in same boat as Algerians. I would much rather buy more Su-30s and look at perhaps even Su-35 for this amount of money (probably can get them for 2 billion sure it's double the price but it's new airframe).

Worrisome. Why disassemble these particular aircraft of a type that the Roos AF still flies?

But as long as the Russians don’t pull a Vikky (jack up prices half way through project) then all good.

Most of the current Mig-29 or Mirage we fly are built in early mid 80 , As part of the UPG/2000-5Mk2 upgrade they refurbish it after comprehensive review of its airframe and this extends their life to 25 more years.

Since these airframe kept is not even flow I would expect they will have 25 plus years of life and with UPG upgrade they will get their stndard avionics fit.

The IAF certainly has good imression of the Mig-29 and UPG upgrade and I had posted a video of IAF Senior office speaking good about it.

here it is

]IAF Mig-29 Upgrade would affect IN Mig-29K upgrade ....let see may be new AESA later on for 29K is possible plus TVC RD-33MK

Saksham Bharat:- MiG-29 Upgrade

Not a full list but what Group Captain says about Mig-29UPG upgrade

1 ) Upgrade add A2G capability anti-ship and make A2A capability more potent2 ) New Radar has multiple Track and Shoot capability simultanously 3 ) PGM capability added and new aircraft is very effective in targetting deep specially in mountanous region both for Pakistan and CHina 4 ) Adding IFR capabilty has made it possible for it be in air for 6 hrs or more5 ) New A2A missile capability , total digital avionics and Glass cockpit6 ) Has T:W Ratio of more than 1 so aircraft can take of vertically7 ) During Kargil Mig-29 was assigned exclusively for CAP in that region , Total 6 Aircraft was assigned for CAP , Enemy aircraft though flying but due to Mig-29 did not come more than 50 km close to LOC8 ) Based out at Adampur IAF oldest and 2nd largest AB9 ) Grp Captain says even today you cant beat Mig-29 in dog fight with contemporary aircraft having Canard and TVC[/quote]

To be perfectly honest, the Fulcrum feels like the MiG-21 to me. A legacy aircraft. Everywhere in the world, it is at most a complement to the Flanker and mostly because of older stock that is around anyways.

Burma, Bangladesh, Malaysia, etc. had seen these things laid up and become derelict because of maintenance issues. Granted IAF support for the 29 is better but it is complementary to MKI. Spends on it makes me feel that money can be better used domestically (including MKI.) But that’s just me.

we need to move away from the cult and mystique of the individual ace air warrior to a dal roti unsexy "system of systems" approach where increasingly, the electronic superiority of radars, EW, missiles and loiter time plays a bigger role in achieving the desired effect of chasing the enemy from the air or destroying any challenger.

that is how a fairly mundane performer like a F18C operating with its support assets in a large force engagement will most definitely defeat a equivalent number of Mig29.

F15X does not even pretend to be a agile dogfighter of the Mig29k/F-solahblock40 mould lugging as it does upto 22 missiles and G-limited by its airframe ..... it can just fly high and fast , protected and guided by EW assets and comprehensive self protection suite and pick its fights.

individually any AF can have great 1:1 winners, but when the big fight looms, its the bigger more networked and resilient force that will win.

instead of Mig29 we should invest in a couple squadrons of growlers like Australia has done. ie buy a couple squadrons of SU30 with ram air generator pods for this role.

its not the big ripped guy with a mace who wins these days. its the small efficient inconspicuous sw driven munna who zero days the big buys bank a/c , shuts his car down, cancels all his credit cards and makes life hell for him without any smoke trail.

i was kind of shocked to read the CAG report on IAF.. looks the IAF is as incompetent as the IAS babus !! all of the accquisitions seems riddled with problems.

<SNIP>

i mean we cant draft ASQR's ...have no idea when the stocks are expiring..when to initiate RFP's etc... its kind of crazy. There needs to be specialzed group of people lawyers, financial experts to deal with these issues.

Last edited by Indranil on 15 Feb 2019 11:40, edited 1 time in total.
Reason:Objectionable parts removed. Consider this a soft warning. I am letting you off because today none of us can think straight.

Those Pics are not of old stored Mig-29s but only those of parts. Are we really considering to pay $15million just for each set of those airframe parts (zero avionics, wiring, engines, assembly jigs and man-hours etc)? What about putting together a flight-worthy aircraft? Only then we should consider paying UPG costs above that. Otherwise we're the biggest suckers of all time. Surely lessons have been learnt since Gorshkov.

manjgu wrote:i was kind of shocked to read the CAG report on IAF.. looks the IAF is as incompetent as the IAS babus !! all of the accquisitions seems riddled with problems.

<SNIP>

i mean we cant draft ASQR's ...have no idea when the stocks are expiring..when to initiate RFP's etc... its kind of crazy. There needs to be specialzed group of people lawyers, financial experts to deal with these issues.

Above a certain level, its all babudom in every organization. Even in Private companies. Mediocre people with bean counting mentality are promoted, who try to maintain status quo. Anyone who rocks the boat will be eliminated or pushed in some corner long time before he can reach position of power, unless of coarse he is too good and right to ignore and when someone at the top at least recognizes the importance and become guarding angel.

hemant_sai wrote:Google shows Mig35 cost as $40mln. If this is true, why not go for new Mig35? If we are paying anything above $25mln for Mig29UPG upgraded from old stock, something is wrong with IAF.

one cannot arrive at reliable figures for such small order history. large scale production like f16/eurofighter/c130/chinook/apache/mi17/su30 from healthy and stable vendors can provide some confidence data based on past history.

plus there is the whole weapons package and a support and spares pkg first for some years and then has to be renewed, the new uptime based service model, millions for every proper manuals and documents (the US is famous for that), onsite training etc etc.

the bare flyaway cost of a airframe with no weapons or pods just about doubles due to all this.

wrt to the Mig29 in storage the only things reusable will be the metal shells. its really not possible to use rubber, plastic, electricals, avionics that are now 30 years old. its out of date and these materials degrade over time just like a shoe loses its bounce after a year of running.

Personally I believe more Tejas Mk1 IOC/FOC would be a better bet than these MiG-29 and available in the same timeframe that Russian would deliver them. Seems to be a repeat of the Gorshkov saga - with Indian money to be used to resuscitate MiG RAC.

Singha wrote:we need to move away from the cult and mystique of the individual ace air warrior to a dal roti unsexy "system of systems" approach where increasingly, the electronic superiority of radars, EW, missiles and loiter time plays a bigger role in achieving the desired effect of chasing the enemy from the air or destroying any challenger.

...

its not the big ripped guy with a mace who wins these days. its the small efficient inconspicuous sw driven munna who zero days the big buys bank a/c , shuts his car down, cancels all his credit cards and makes life hell for him without any smoke trail.

Singha ji, that sounds like the daydream of every desi ITwallah or analyst in the States who had been bullied by a muscle-bound gora office jock. lol