geekhack

I started designing a "OTD class" split ergo keyboard this weekend based on the key64 (http://www.key64.com) and I was thinking that maybe we could make it possible if there was some people interested.

The design is not final and there is still a lot of work to be done but here is where I am.[ATTACH=CONFIG]28310[/ATTACH][ATTACH=CONFIG]28306[/ATTACH][ATTACH=CONFIG]28307[/ATTACH][ATTACH=CONFIG]28308[/ATTACH][ATTACH=CONFIG]28309[/ATTACH]

Current design (based on feedback and comments) still not final:(http://geekhack.org/attachment.php?attachmentid=28864&d=1318894674)THE LAYOUT PRESENTED IS NOT FINAL. THE CONTROLLER WILL BE PROGRAMMABLE.

The price will be high ±400$ (highly depending on how many we are).

What would be included:Full CNC anodized aluminium case and plate,PCB.

What may be included or self-served:Switches,Keycaps,Diodes,Cable,Teensy,Assembly

It isn't very hard at all. I just taught a 11-year-old to solder this last weekend. There are a lot of youtube videos that teach you how to solder. Take a look at them. If you think you can do it, go to Radio Shack to buy a $10 kit to give it a try. If you can solder that kit, you should be able to solder switches and diodes onto the circuit board.

i was actually going to try to solder this weekend lol. i want to make a switch box for a CST trackball, and i was going to try it on that since i figured it wouldn't be too expensive if i messed it up.

The hard part of soldering is not cooking components. The components on a KB are really quite heat tolerant. 80 some odd switches and just as many diodes would be plenty of training in order to not cook the controller. Since Dox is specifying a teensy you don't even solder the controller, just board to board connections.

Looks GREAT !Curving is a bit overrated, sometimes I think my kinesis is a bit too curved. What I really want is a split design so I could build cardboard bases and tilt the 2 sides anyway I want, all the way up to vertical, which I can't do with the fixed Kinesis, but I can definately do with what you are presenting here!

It would be a nice improvement if you can do 4 thumbkeys per side instead of 2. (The Kinesis Advantage has 6, and even there I find myself wishing for more). Anyway, the extra thumbkeys will allow you to have an Fn key in each side, which will make it far easier to type things like ) and ". A trackpoint (http://geekhack.org/showwiki.php?title=Island:4917) would be awesome too.

Is it possible to make the two large outermost thumb keys into 2 separate keys each?

i wouldn't recommend it, as in 2 seperate buttons up and down? you kinda want a longer 1.25 key to (rest) your thumb on.

i'd recommend something like thishttp://www.kinesis-ergo.com/freestyle-vip-features.htmnot all those features, but instead of how ppl put the feet/tabs that make a keyboard slope on an incline, do that to the two boards and have 4 small feet/tabs(2 per side) so that you can slope it inwards.like sordna, i'd recommend following kinesis thumb layout more than the c64, that is to have the 6 buttons on the thumb area, rather having extended buttons past towards the del/tab/numlk/enter area.

if you "force" yourself to learn to use enter/backspace with the thumbs, these aren't needed.

i've mocked the layout (since i actually had pcb's laying around) and for a 5 10' guy, the thumbs are really close, i think they need to be out more.

imo and prolly sordna has more experience, the spherical keycaps on a kinesis homerow are awesome, while the rest of the keycaps are regular cylindrical. I believe this is the best arrangement because the spherical will allow you find "home row" easily while moving towards the other keys freely with a cylindrical shape.

Here is my preferred layout. The Fn layer is not done yet. But for regular layout is very close to what i want given the fewer number of keys. I use the left Ctrl, Shift, ESC, and Tab all the time (but not Capslock), and I much prefer Tab, BackSpace, Enter, and right Shift at where they normally are. In general I prefer a layout that is as close to regular ANSI layout as possible.

Hats off! Love it! I see the Key64 influence. My input: I would strongly suggest a serious consideration for an integrated pointing device. I've had my split Kinesis (see signature link) and I can tell you from over 6 months experience, that once you split, separate, incline, ergo layout, ergo key position, and macro, that moving your hand off the home row for cursor pointing becomes absolutely ridiculous. And that's the polite way of expressing the emotion. I have an Apple Mighty Mouse on the left and an IBM trackpoint on the right. I like touch pads and some trackballs, but again, leaving the home row becomes a cumbersome chore. As a matter of fact, the integrated pointing device really started the split Kinesis project.

Regarding keywell curvature: I may not understand Sordnas view of the Kinesis wells being too curved, but then again, I rest my hands on the Kinesis palm pads. My hands are a mens large, so maybe that has something to do with it? I have a Kinesis Freestyle, and prefer the curved keywells, but the Freestyle is not a matrix layout nor does it have the columns height adjusted. I have not used anything like this particular configuration.

I didn't notice, but is there any work on an awesome programmable controller?

I have possible interest :)

NOTE:I've recently had some extreme changes in my life that have dramatically shifted my time and priorities. I was about to administer the wood key cap buy, try and lead the custom controller project, and do some in-depth reviews with awesome pics of my Datahand, Alphagrip, Kinesis, and fully update and document the split Kinesis project. I wanted to build up these areas for Geekhack since GH has done so much for me. I apologize to anyone that has been waiting for me to perform on various topics, as I'm not certain when I will be able to continue.

i wouldn't recommend it, as in 2 seperate buttons up and down? you kinda want a longer 1.25 key to (rest) your thumb on.

i'd recommend something like thishttp://www.kinesis-ergo.com/freestyle-vip-features.htmnot all those features, but instead of how ppl put the feet/tabs that make a keyboard slope on an incline, do that to the two boards and have 4 small feet/tabs(2 per side) so that you can slope it inwards.like sordna, i'd recommend following kinesis thumb layout more than the c64, that is to have the 6 buttons on the thumb area, rather having extended buttons past towards the del/tab/numlk/enter area.

if you "force" yourself to learn to use enter/backspace with the thumbs, these aren't needed.

i've mocked the layout (since i actually had pcb's laying around) and for a 5 10' guy, the thumbs are really close, i think they need to be out more.

imo and prolly sordna has more experience, the spherical keycaps on a kinesis homerow are awesome, while the rest of the keycaps are regular cylindrical. I believe this is the best arrangement because the spherical will allow you find "home row" easily while moving towards the other keys freely with a cylindrical shape.

I guess f-keys are done by some keylock?

Thanks for the input! I will try to work on the thumb area in general this week and post some new render when it's done. As for the keycaps, I really have no plan for this yet but I like the idea of the spherical home row only.

Quote from: input nirvana;429130

Hats off! Love it! I see the Key64 influence. My input: I would strongly suggest a serious consideration for an integrated pointing device. I've had my split Kinesis (see signature link) and I can tell you from over 6 months experience, that once you split, separate, incline, ergo layout, ergo key position, and macro, that moving your hand off the home row for cursor pointing becomes absolutely ridiculous. And that's the polite way of expressing the emotion. I have an Apple Mighty Mouse on the left and an IBM trackpoint on the right. I like touch pads and some trackballs, but again, leaving the home row becomes a cumbersome chore. As a matter of fact, the integrated pointing device really started the split Kinesis project.

Regarding keywell curvature: I may not understand Sordnas view of the Kinesis wells being too curved, but then again, I rest my hands on the Kinesis palm pads. My hands are a mens large, so maybe that has something to do with it? I have a Kinesis Freestyle, and prefer the curved keywells, but the Freestyle is not a matrix layout nor does it have the columns height adjusted. I have not used anything like this particular configuration.

I didn't notice, but is there any work on an awesome programmable controller?

I have possible interest :)

NOTE:I've recently had some extreme changes in my life that have dramatically shifted my time and priorities. I was about to administer the wood key cap buy, try and lead the custom controller project, and do some in-depth reviews with awesome pics of my Datahand, Alphagrip, Kinesis, and fully update and document the split Kinesis project. I wanted to build up these areas for Geekhack since GH has done so much for me. I apologize to anyone that has been waiting for me to perform on various topics, as I'm not certain when I will be able to continue.

P.S.Wood key caps will probably go through WASD Keyboards soon.

Thanks input nirvana, I will seriously consider an integrated trackpoint in the design. I got to say that I spent a lot of time looking at that kinesis wiki.

Regarding keywell curvature: I may not understand Sordnas view of the Kinesis wells being too curvedNOTE: Kinesis, and fully update and document the split Kinesis project.

So far i'm in love with the depth and curve of the kinesis keywells (they could be angled/sloped towards the middle more i think many of the kinesis users agree on this).yea there's zero kinesis hacking/modding atm, imma try to fill the gap with that.

I'd throw in for just the pcbs. It shouldn't be difficult to lay out the circuit board to be functional mirrored, allowing you to use the same board for both sides, helping cut the per-board cost. The full metal enclosure seems a bit rich for my blood, but would make an amazingly solid input device for those who can afford it.

I'd throw in for just the pcbs. It shouldn't be difficult to lay out the circuit board to be functional mirrored, allowing you to use the same board for both sides, helping cut the per-board cost. The full metal enclosure seems a bit rich for my blood, but would make an amazingly solid input device for those who can afford it.

The pcbs wont be symmetrical as the controller is on one half and the columns and rows of the other half have to be routed to the other side. The mounting plate will be symmetrical.

I reworked the thumb area a bit. Tell me what you think. (Attachment) 28744[/ATTACH]

That looks like the thumb-key configuration that the Kinesis has. I find that on my Kinesis, I can not reach for the smaller thumb keys easily, and I wish that there was instead a key in-between the thumb keys and the main group. For me, the problem is mostly with the "Alt" keys, which is the topmost thumb key in each of the Kinesis' thumb groups.

That looks like the thumb-key configuration that the Kinesis has. I find that on my Kinesis, I can not reach for the smaller thumb keys easily, and I wish that there was instead a key in-between the thumb keys and the main group. For me, the problem is mostly with the "Alt" keys, which is the topmost thumb key in each of the Kinesis' thumb groups.

Having them on the same level as the other keys will probably help with the reach and you still have 2 extra buttons at the "interior" of each hand.

Quote from: dorkvader;432244

You could just leave the controller area blank on one of the boards, but I don't think this will work because I don't think the cherry switch is symmetrical.

Not really, leaving the controller area empty on one side side and using a symmetrical pcb would simply route the signals of one half to the columns/rows of the other one and not to the controller. And as you said, cherry switches aren't symmetrical.

I won't pledge definite interest, but when would you be ordering all this? I like the idea, but I don't know if I could afford it. If it wasn't for a good long while, I'd have to start saving now, and maybe I could do it. It would be good if only to force me to type correctly.

In my opinion and in result of my own tests, two buttons for the thumbs are best.Additional thumbbuttons are not good to reach.

Well, being a Kinesis user I appreciate the additional thumbkeys. Of course the smaller keys are a bit harder to reach than the larger ones, that is inevitable. But since this is programmable, you would put slightly less frequently used keys there. We do want the extra keys, however, definitely... I like to have 2 controls, 2 alts, 2 win keys, and 2 Fn (2nd layer keys) keys so I can always avoid one-hand combos which are bad for rsi/carpal tunnel issues. The extra thumb keys allow doing 2-handed combos all the time; which is ergonomically superior.

With the new keys, I think I got everything on the first layer except F1-F12 and PrintScreen, Scroll Lock, And Pause/Break. I keep most of the modifiers in the usual location as they are how I prefer :-).

might wanna think about lining up the num-row with the fingers like kinesis/maltron. It's actually easier for me now to touch type numbers on a matrix layout, than ever before, and i'm a numpad snob (of course i'll always num-type faster with num-pad, but matrix num-row is very good).

might wanna think about lining up the num-row with the fingers like kinesis/maltron. It's actually easier for me now to touch type numbers on a matrix layout, than ever before, and i'm a numpad snob (of course i'll always num-type faster with num-pad, but matrix num-row is very good).

100% agree. All split matrix keyboards are consistent, Kinesis, Maltron, Typematrix, and even the TrulyErgonomic as well as the Fingerworks Touchstream (my photo below).1 is above Q, 5 is above T, 6 is above Y, 0 is above P (assuming qwerty layout).

if we wanna go further with it, and i'm sure most kinesis guys think this way, if i have to type "1" i think "use pinky" if i have to type "8" i think use middle finger. i mean it's like going back to gradeschool and counting numbers with your fingers. If you guys are gonna do this, i think you should do it right, cuz no matter the layout qwerty,dvork or some weird customer layout... numrow 1through0 will always be the same.

Hot damn, color me interested. I will definitely need to save some cash up, but this might actually be worth it. Ill follow this thread, and check out layouts etc when im not at work^^. Tentatively put me down for 1.

So I wanted to look at the number of people interested in this, so I added up everyone that looks like they may be in on oneDox is the only one who said they want 2.p means they are dependant on price,? means they didn't specifically say they wanted one, but looked interested from their posts.Parenteses indicate notes I took from their posts.

So I count ~6 or so who are interested regardless of anything.If the cost is acceptable the number grows significantly to ~12The total of all people who look interested is 19 ( or actually 20 sets of boards, and 19 sets of cases.)

So if we got 15-20 orders of this, what would the price look like? 'Cause if it means it'll be $250-$350, we'll get a LOT of interest.

ErgoDox Interest check Compilation:

----LIST MOVED TO SECOND POST: LOOK FOR IT THERE!!!-----Hope this helps!---Edit: Oh, and is "ErgoDOX" a good name? I read it somewhere, and liked it.

So I wanted to look at the number of people interested in this, so I added up everyone that looks like they may be in on oneDox is the only one who said they want 2.p means they are dependant on price,? means they didn't specifically say they wanted one, but looked interested from their posts.Parenteses indicate notes I took from their posts.

So I count ~6 or so who are interested regardless of anything.If the cost is acceptable the number grows significantly to ~12The total of all people who look interested is 19 ( or actually 20 sets of boards, and 19 sets of cases.)

So if we got 15-20 orders of this, what would the price look like? 'Cause if it means it'll be $250-$350, we'll get a LOT of interest.

Hope this helps!---Edit: Oh, and is "ErgoDOX" a good name? I read it somewhere, and liked it.

Thanks for the compilation, with something like 15-20 keyboards we could probably reach a price closer to 300 than 400 but that is still very approximative.ErgoDox is the name I came up with before I did the renders for the OP. As everything else, it's not final but I think it's not bad at all.

Quote from: litster;441489

Let's do it! I want to solder something!

That's what I want to hear!

Quote from: sordna;441506

You read it here:http://geekhack.org/showthread.php?22412-Truly-Ergonomic-Communication-Sept-27-2011&p=431524&viewfull=1#post431524

I'm quite interested, especially if the keyboard comes with all the parts (including red MX switches), and preferably assembled and working :-)

I don't have a source for red switches but I wouldn't mind doing the assembly/firmware customization for people that doesn't have soldering equipment or experience.

Quote from: Lanx;441531

none for me, i'm just giving feedback from my experience modding a similar layout and using kinesis.

red switches are very hard to get. If you want red switches, you are better off buying and gutting a Poker or Leopold tenkeyless or some other cheaper red-switch keyboards. It might not be a bad idea as I think you can resell the Leopold keycaps, especially that "special" spacebar :-).

red switches are very hard to get. If you want red switches, you are better off buying and gutting a Poker or Leopold tenkeyless or some other cheaper red-switch keyboards. It might not be a bad idea as I think you can resell the Leopold keycaps, especially that "special" spacebar :-).

It's not that special after SP gets production up for the 6-post "combined" spacebars.

Hmm, I count 64-72 Keys depending on thumb configuration, so that'd be 1500 or so keys for ~20 orders. You could maybe order from Cherry direct in quantities like that. Or $0.609/key from mouser:http://www.mouser.com/ProductDetail/Cherry-Electrical/MX1A-E1NW/?qs=sGAEpiMZZMsqIr59i2oRcl0OtbIxCyKkAg8zsoDLHg0%3d

Note on the thumb keys:Kinesis users will attest that the quantity of keys in the thumb cluster is a big plus. I have never heard of anyone unhappy with the quantity of thumb keys, and a couple wanted more. With my unscientific experiments, I have come to the conclusion that 2 additional keys per thumb could be added within the EXISTING 'range of thumb movement'. A 3rd key (low frequency) with a slight additional movement could be added. I may have a pic in my Kinesis Split Mod article...

Note on case design:Being a Kinesis user I'm very in tune with this part....it seems to me that the case needs to be as minimal as possible where the butt of your palm would be -OR- larger with a palm rest "built in". Probably only Kinesis users will see this the way I do.

Note on the thumb keys:Kinesis users will attest that the quantity of keys in the thumb cluster is a big plus. I have never heard of anyone unhappy with the quantity of thumb keys, and a couple wanted more. With my unscientific experiments, I have come to the conclusion that 2 additional keys per thumb could be added within the EXISTING 'range of thumb movement'. A 3rd key (low frequency) with a slight additional movement could be added. I may have a pic in my Kinesis Split Mod article...

Note on case design:Being a Kinesis user I'm very in tune with this part....it seems to me that the case needs to be as minimal as possible where the butt of your palm would be -OR- larger with a palm rest "built in". Probably only Kinesis users will see this the way I do.

I'd like to hear some feedback on this.

Could you indicate the location of the keys that you would like to add on my render, this sounds interesting.I've been working a lot recently and I didn't had much time to put on this but I will continue as soon as I can. I want this to happen.

Saw a photo a long while back showing a metal keyboard that had holes to screw in some pegs (these had a threaded metal shaft and a rubber base). If there's two or three holes in line, then the user can choose the hole to control the tent.

Saw a photo a long while back showing a metal keyboard that had holes to screw in some pegs (these had a threaded metal shaft and a rubber base). If there's two or three holes in line, then the user can choose the hole to control the tent.

Just an idea, sadly it adds a bit to the cost.

Sounds easy enough to DIY. I didn't bother mentioning preferences about angling/tenting because as long as the keyboard halves are compact and flat, you can easily prop and tent them any way you want by carving a piece or foam to use as a base, or cutting and gluing wine corks as pegs, or even building inclines from cardboard :-)But yes, it's a good idea to have holes in the case bottom, but that's easy enough to drill ourselves too if it ends up adding more cost.

I would be interested, but it looks like the keyboard was designed without thought for the functionality. there isnt even enough keys for all of the standard keys on a keyboard. heres my thoughts: you need to have all of the standard keys exactly where you would expect to find them. i would put space on both sides on thumb keys, and the second thumb key could be CTRL on the left and ALT on the right. the row on the bottom needs another key (underneith the shift keys on both sides) so that the bottom row can be F1 through F12. the thick vertical keys (on the inside of the setup) should be split up to make sure you have enough keys for every standard key to be where it should be in a qewrty layout. i personally would ditch anything (besides numbers) that can be on a number pad, such as home, page up, page down, end, and the arrow keys. maybe the escape key should be split up to fit the tilde next to it. plus, it could then work with novelty escape keys. (or you could move the esc key up to where it says ergodox, and put ergodox next to the lights on the right hand pad. i think that would look cool.

all in all, i love the idea, but i think it needs a major rework before i would commit money to the end product.

I would be interested, but it looks like the keyboard was designed without thought for the functionality. there isnt even enough keys for all of the standard keys on a keyboard. heres my thoughts: you need to have all of the standard keys exactly where you would expect to find them. i would put space on both sides on thumb keys, and the second thumb key could be CTRL on the left and ALT on the right. the row on the bottom needs another key (underneith the shift keys on both sides) so that the bottom row can be F1 through F12. the thick vertical keys (on the inside of the setup) should be split up to make sure you have enough keys for every standard key to be where it should be in a qewrty layout. i personally would ditch anything (besides numbers) that can be on a number pad, such as home, page up, page down, end, and the arrow keys. maybe the escape key should be split up to fit the tilde next to it. plus, it could then work with novelty escape keys. (or you could move the esc key up to where it says ergodox, and put ergodox next to the lights on the right hand pad. i think that would look cool.

all in all, i love the idea, but i think it needs a major rework before i would commit money to the end product.

Then, you will have to make your own because I don't agree with the majority of your points. Thanks for your impressions.

Is this attached image a possible alternative layout? I mean - would that work, or does something prevent that? Or is it possible to position the part above the keys vertically below them, thus creating a foot-bar type thing? I'm not really asking for this as much as trying to better understand the possibilities for keyboard designs.

The only thing you need worry about is fitting all the required bits on the PCB. So, on the right hand one the controller could live in that new location that has no keys without issue. The question is whether the inter-board connections can fit in that tiny space left at the top.

You know, I'm not sure why I didn't look at this sooner. It looks pretty sweet. Consider me game if the cost doesn't exceed $350 by much. If MX clears are an option that would be quite swell. If Colemak is the standard, it would be great if I could get caps to fit QWERTY, but I'm sure that's something that I can do even outside of this project.

You know, I'm not sure why I didn't look at this sooner. It looks pretty sweet. Consider me game if the cost doesn't exceed $350 by much. If MX clears are an option that would be quite swell. If Colemak is the standard, it would be great if I could get caps to fit QWERTY, but I'm sure that's something that I can do even outside of this project.

I still have a lot of work to do on this. I will probably have a few days between Christmas and the new year to complete the drawings. I'm currently learning a lot about electronics, I plan on using some multiplexer/demultiplexer between the 2 halves to have a reasonable amount of wire between the boards.

I'm definitely feeling no rush here. Heck, I have plenty of stuff I have to drop money on with the holiday rush and also moving into a new place. I'll definitely put some thought into what stuff I think might be neat for this in the next few days. I doubt there will be much, it already looks to be pretty slick.

Is this attached image a possible alternative layout? I mean - would that work, or does something prevent that? Or is it possible to position the part above the keys vertically below them, thus creating a foot-bar type thing? I'm not really asking for this as much as trying to better understand the possibilities for keyboard designs.

I think a better idea is to tuck the controller above the thumb area, since it looks like Dox will add more thumb keys.

Heh, this is 100% Dox's game, I'm just trying to keep track of interest, so it's easier to figure out who's in when the time comes. I also plan to PM everyone on the list once some things are settled.

Dox: multiplexing would be great, that way we could keep it simple with the inter-board connectors. I'm only somewhat familiar with I2S, but I know there are other methods for chip-to-chip communication.

There's even a chance you could make the halves somewhat symmetrical, with a master/slave chip, so you can plug in either half into the computer. The "master" would be the one attached to USB of course. Just an idea. There isn't really a benefit to this, but you would have the option to do away with the board connections, and just connect each half to the computer, or connect one half (either one) to the computer, and plug the slave board in, and go. I imagine this could be done with some sort of diode arrangement, or something. (you could just wire a diode to the power on one board, so that it goes hot if it's plugged in, if the pin is hot, automatically set controller to "slave" mode. I imagine this can also be done with some sort of multiplexing arrangement or whatever you'd have to get the chips talking to eachother.)

Funkymeeba, I've added you to the "unofficial list".

Laffindude: there were some mockups earlier on with more thumb buttons, did you get a look at them?

Could you indicate the location of the keys that you would like to add on my render, this sounds interesting.I've been working a lot recently and I didn't had much time to put on this but I will continue as soon as I can. I want this to happen.

First thing's first, I am very literally a disinterested party in terms of the thumb buttons myself. That is to say I like the way it is now just perfectly fine. If there were a couple extra buttons I would not mind but the way it is now is awesome as well, I don't need any additional ones as when I was trying out a kinesis recently, I never actually used the other keys, just the two long ones.

[ATTACH=CONFIG]34825[/ATTACH]

Okay, so there is A and B, here's another point where I don't care and either would be fine with me.

On A, the thumb would rest on the second long key from the left. As the thumb extends it has better dexterity, I have noticed, and when the thumb distends and is tucked in closer to the palm of the hand it has less dexterity. With the two buttons further away, the thumb is better able to distinguish and select different keys.

B is pretty self-explicative. It is merely the way it is now with two buttons on the far end, looks a lot like the newer designs you did.

Yeah, see, that is awesome! I was just paying attention to what input nirvana was saying about having only two extra keys. I only posted that picture because layout A in it was just about the only idea I had to share and offer up for criticism. As it is, I'm probably going to up my stake in this to three keyboards.

Dox, I like the new thumb keys, but I don't really like the number row. The proper alignment is: 5 over T and 6 over Y. Virtually all matrix keyboards are like this. You can easily achieve the proper alignment by moving -_ and =+ either in the two inner colums (where the 7 is in your new picture) or in the outer columns (as the longer sized keys). The latter approach is what Kinesis does since it doesn't have the extra inner columns you have (which I love by the way).

Oh and a soda fountain built-in! Spikes! We need spikes so that we can decimate our enemy if they ever attack us entrenched in our offices!

Oh, oh and you should build-in windshield wiper units so it can clean itself and your monitor. Maybe a vacuum unit built into the bottom of it so it can keep a tidy desktop. . . better make it a wet/dry vac to handle any wayward bodily fluids. . . speaking of which, have you considered attaching a robotic arm that it could like you know reach. . . umm nevermind :tape2:

Oh and a soda fountain built-in! Spikes! We need spikes so that we can decimate our enemy if they ever attack us entrenched in our offices!

Oh, oh and you should build-in windshield wiper units so it can clean itself and your monitor. Maybe a vacuum unit built into the bottom of it so it can keep a tidy desktop. . . better make it a wet/dry vac to handle any wayward bodily fluids. . . speaking of which, have you considered attaching a robotic arm that it could like you know reach. . . umm nevermind :tape2:

Trackpoint would be lovely ;) As I type on an EnduraPro. My only other wish is Function keys, but I doubt that would happen. Depending on the price I might be up for this keyboard though. It's the only mechanical, matrix, split I can see....

As a design consideration: would there be a TP in the left? right? both? will there be one in a center module that both halves plug into? Is it still between the keys? I'm just not seeing how this works out.

At least we should think about it as a future option, or make provisions in the case/PCB or something for folks that want it. I honestly think a trackpoint will attract more folks that it will drive away. Those that don't like it can always remove the tip anyway. The non-launch of the trackpointed mini-guru (http://www.guru-board.com/) was the top-voted disappointment (ping award) on deskthority... got twice more votes than the Truly Ergonomic delay. My only concern about the trackpoint is that it could prove too difficult and derail the project. I'll leave the decision to Dox, we are just sharing some ideas/suggestions here.

Position placed on the PCB for soldering it in: YES!! I will install one this way if given the option!

Built-in from get-go: I'm not sure of the wisdom in this.

If we just have the position wired into the PCB for it then we could have the space for it on BOTH sides so it could accommodate both regs and southies.

This is a great idea if room can be made for it. Thumb keys could be set up to act as mouse buttons etc.

Then we will need to have four custom keys in that region made. Another cost layer for the individuals who choose to have it.

This cost should not be put off on those who do not want trackpoints as it will lower the already minority appeal drastically. It is already a niche piece and we can only do harm by too much personalization beyond what is already there.

Put me down for 3!

I will sell my 30" monitor if I have to. Or sell my car. . . whichever comes first. :)

I don't think it would cost extra for getting the keys done. It seems like it would be an easy enough home mod. Frankly I don't really require a trackpoint, but I think it would be pretty neat. Making it optional is fine. I am fine either way.

1)I've spent a tremendous amount of time contemplating/using/experimenting with Kinesis key placement/add/delete/moves. I believe the most recent render is the best there can be WITHOUT moving fingers from the home row. This is almost the same as what I came up with. (my pic is pretty bad, and the added keys are covering some existing keys, but it's a mock up). It's perfectly ok to have keys that you need to move off home row to hit, but I decided I will not address that until I have made every effort to keep keys within the target range of fingers/thumbs and staying on home row.

[ATTACH=CONFIG]35228[/ATTACH] [ATTACH=CONFIG]35229[/ATTACH]

These are some of my thoughts on the right hand keywell (matching your right hand render):

-The white key extreme lower right under the shift (pinky activated) was to possibly be a Fn key and is replicated on the left keywell. (I've added these 2 keys to my mod, it's quite excellent).-The white key under the arrow key, next to the right of the space key, if a little lower could be Sordnas palm activated shift key (maybe use a long key?).-The white key to the left lower side of thumb cluster, allows activation without leaving home row.-The long white keys to the left of "HN" and "6Y" I was undecided if they could be square (2 square keys to the left of "Y" and "H") or the long keys you see for easier touch-type targets.

The reasons I have been so hell-bent on increasing the number of keys, and keeping them within touch-type range, was to be able to provide dual modifiers (per Sordna, Architect). These adds allow 5 keys per side. With what I have here, Command/Windows, CTRL, ALT/OPT, shift, Fn, can be used by either hand, and still have the ability to have dual enters or whatever. And still have the option of a couple keys that take your fingers off home row, if you really want to do that :)

2)Regarding the integrated trackpoint (or pointing device). I strongly suggest that you don't feel you can't move forward without it, but don't dare move forward unless you have made provisions for it. Again, I've spent so much time on this. Ask yourself this one question: Why am I making this? A: Ergonomics. What's more un-ergonomic than taking your hand off home row and off the keyboard?. Easy options for pointing devices are trackpoint, multi-direction scrollwheel, and thumb scrollball (see Alphagrip AG-5, I'm a huge fan of these things).

Random note. You know this design is screaming to be mounted on chair arms, or similar. What about a pointing device option then? What about tenting this keyboard...even worse, you'd have to "un-tent" your wrist to use a mouse or whatever, then "re-tent". How stone age and RSI prone is that?

1)I've spent a tremendous amount of time contemplating/using/experimenting with Kinesis key placement/add/delete/moves. I believe the most recent render is the best there can be WITHOUT moving fingers from the home row. This is almost the same as what I came up with. (my pic is pretty bad, and the added keys are covering some existing keys, but it's a mock up). It's perfectly ok to have keys that you need to move off home row to hit, but I decided I will not address that until I have made every effort to keep keys within the target range of fingers/thumbs and staying on home row.

(Attachment) 35228[/ATTACH] (Attachment) 35229[/ATTACH]

These are some of my thoughts on the right hand keywell (matching your right hand render):

-The white key extreme lower right under the shift (pinky activated) was to possibly be a Fn key and is replicated on the left keywell. (I've added these 2 keys to my mod, it's quite excellent).-The white key under the arrow key, next to the right of the space key, if a little lower could be Sordnas palm activated shift key (maybe use a long key?). Palm key could be interesting.-The white key to the left lower side of thumb cluster, allows activation without leaving home row. I'll see what I can do for this but as a vim user, I got to say that there is already enough keys for my intended layout.-The long white keys to the left of "HN" and "6Y" I was undecided if they could be square (2 square keys to the left of "Y" and "H") or the long keys you see for easier touch-type targets. Yeah I was thinking that those long keys being further inside could be easier to hit.

The reasons I have been so hell-bent on increasing the number of keys, and keeping them within touch-type range, was to be able to provide dual modifiers (per Sordna, Architect). These adds allow 5 keys per side. With what I have here, Command/Windows, CTRL, ALT/OPT, shift, Fn, can be used by either hand, and still have the ability to have dual enters or whatever. And still have the option of a couple keys that take your fingers off home row, if you really want to do that :)Dual modifiers is possible in with the current render for me but I understand that some people may need some extra keys and I will consider it.

2)Regarding the integrated trackpoint (or pointing device). I strongly suggest that you don't feel you can't move forward without it, but don't dare move forward unless you have made provisions for it. Again, I've spent so much time on this. Ask yourself this one question: Why am I making this? A: Ergonomics. What's more un-ergonomic than taking your hand off home row and off the keyboard?. Easy options for pointing devices are trackpoint, multi-direction scrollwheel, and thumb scrollball (see Alphagrip AG-5, I'm a huge fan of these things).

I don't think I said it before but I would LOVE to have an integrated trackpoint. The only problem that I see is...... Where can you buy these things?? I think all the mods with trackpoint I've seen were from some hacked IBM rubber dome keyboards. I have to have something "standard" to be able to implement it correctly. I currently don't even own a trackpoint. If somebody have a source for these we need your help. Otherwise, the best I can do is the place a hole in the plate and PCB and put some traces on the PCB to connect one and leave the choice to the user. You will however always have the options to use mouse keys on a fn (or primary) layer.

Random note. You know this design is screaming to be mounted on chair arms, or similar. What about a pointing device option then? What about tenting this keyboard...even worse, you'd have to "un-tent" your wrist to use a mouse or whatever, then "re-tent". How stone age and RSI prone is that?I got a few mounting ideas that I want to try and chair mounted is one of them. I know... I know... integrated pointing device....

Hehe, I N at his finest. Just one note on the palm key: Where you have it on your mock up, it's actually an extra (and welcome!) thumb key.By palm key, I mean a key that will be lower than the thumb cluster, like this:

[ATTACH=CONFIG]35247[/ATTACH]

But the location you put your key, is actually a welcome extra thumbcluster key, especially if you make it parallel with the thumb keys and align it so it lines up with the bottom edge of the space.

Hehe, I N at his finest. Just one note on the palm key: Where you have it on your mock up, it's actually an extra (and welcome!) thumb key.By palm key, I mean a key that will be lower than the thumb cluster, like this:

(Attachment) 35247[/ATTACH]

But the location you put your key, is actually a welcome extra thumbcluster key, especially if you make it parallel with the thumb keys and align it so it lines up with the bottom edge of the space.

The pic is/was from a group of photos with keys laid down 'just to visualize'. Others are shown in the Split Kinesis mod article. I took lots of crappy pics just to document and refer back to. I never had a formal 'Palm key' idea, although that one key has been in question a number of times for functionality and placement. If such a "palm key" were to exist, perhaps it's as easy as having it ride "high" so the palm doesn't have to lay completely flat and maybe should be a larger key cap? It may be a crazy idea, but the functionality could be awesome. Implementation is everything for something like this, and there may be no good way to incorporate it well, but it's certainly worth some effort. Anyones thoughts? If you have experience with a Kinesis that would help :)

As far as a trackpoint is concerned, I think it'd be a nightmare trying to get them via any other means aside from old hardware. Alps has something of an alternative (here (http://www.alps.com/products/WebObjects/catalog.woa/E/PDF/Switch/MultiControl/RKJXL/RKJXL.PDF)), but at best it'd be only usable in the thumb location. I don't think this should be a showstopper regardless, unless you personally have it as a requirement of course :)

Have you considered a resistive LCD? It could be used for reprogramming on the fly, or data interaction from the PC. They are relatively cheap nowadays, and I've been considering them for my own custom project for a while. They do tend to need a beefier controller with more pins, and obviously much more code.

I will send an email to unicomp to see what they can do. The trackpoint is not an absolute requirement but it would be a great feature.No LCD.

I did not have luck with this. I spoke with Bob. Maybe you can do better. No, the trackpoint is not an absolute requirement, but your exploring all avenues is. You have a great project with a lot of insight. Don't take a last minute short-cut, it's too valuable. Information is power. I'll help you if I can. You can always PM me.

I did not have luck with this. I spoke with Bob. Maybe you can do better. No, the trackpoint is not an absolute requirement, but your exploring all avenues is. You have a great project with a lot of insight. Don't take a last minute short-cut, it's too valuable. Information is power. I'll help you if I can. You can always PM me.

I had originally called and spoke to Bob about using the trackpoint, and he said it probably couldn't be done. In retrospect, I think he misunderstood me, since the trackpoint that many of us have been robbing from KPD8923 keyboards is an unscrew-plug-n-play affair. I'm rusty on the exact discussion at this point (almost 2 years ago) as far as purchasing. I believe what needs to happen right now is contact should be made and info on what particular model of trackpoint to possibly be used needs to be fleshed out. Usability is a question, supplying is a question, pricing is a question.

I repair a LOT of fujitsu laptops, which all use synaptics touchpads. Every time a top cover gets replaced, we throw the old one away (Fujitsu doesn't want it back) and each new one comes with a touchpad. I could start saving the old ones if we could use them for anything. They'd be used, but would work. The hard part is removing them without bending the PCB.

Maybe not for this project, come to think of it. Does synaptics make touchpoints? I know ALPS makes touchpads, too.

A split keyboard with mechanical switches is what I was looking for when I came to GH. So I'm interested. I'm not sure that I'm $400 worth of interested yet. I've still got some alternatives to think about.

I'm pretty aggressively uninterested in an integrated trackpoint, by the way. I would be interested in support (screw holes?) for later securely attaching lifts to tent the board - something along the lines of what the Freestyle allows - along with a pad configuration on the bottom that would help keep it stable in that configuration.

I get a bit concerned when look at the list of OS X incompatibilities that are showing up with the Truly Ergonomic keyboard. How difficult is it to program the firmware in a keyboard like this and how hard is it to address things like sleep/wakeup problems?

Dox says he's looking into a system to chair-mount it, so I'm sure you'd be able to tent it pretty easily using the same system. Right now all I can imagine is those screw-holes they put on the backs of routers, powerstrips, and the like for wall mounting, though I really have no idea what it'll turn out to be in reality.

I'm not sold on the trackpoint yet myself, but I imagine it'd probably be optional anyway.

You'll have to check on the sleep/wakeup, but the microcontroller (teensy?) is supposed to be very compatible with different systems (one of the reasons I'm interested in this project). It's also pretty easy to reprogram them.

I did not have luck with this. I spoke with Bob. Maybe you can do better. No, the trackpoint is not an absolute requirement, but your exploring all avenues is. You have a great project with a lot of insight. Don't take a last minute short-cut, it's too valuable. Information is power. I'll help you if I can. You can always PM me.

Hi Guys, i have been disconnected from geekhack since last months and then i found this project. What a nice surprise to found somebody who was developing a project with ideas coming from the key64 keyboard.I started designing the key64 at the begining of the year after the TE fiasco, none of their concepts are new i just borrow them from information i found at geekhack, deskthority and overclock.net and made references to them at the design page (http://www.key64.com/keyboards) with the hope someday i will make it real.Geekhack is a wonderful place to anybody who find keyboards exciting, but is very addictive so i decided to stay away for a while, Dox: your keybord "the dox keyboard" is awesome, while i still prefer to be minimalistic in design, and follow the key64's motto "No more keys you can type on" i wish you make your design a reality, and share your experiences with us as you have one on the past with the staggered one.keep up the good work !p.d. Input Nirvana: i don't like the idea of a trackpoint inside a keyboard. I have a thinkpad and in my personal experience is so painful and is not as faster and as comfortable as a trackball, right now i use a logitech marble mouse, coming from a kensigton trackball.

Hi Guys, i have been disconnected from geekhack since last months and then i found this project. What a nice surprise to found somebody who was developing a project with ideas coming from the key64 keyboard.I started designing the key64 at the begining of the year after the TE fiasco, none of their concepts are new i just borrow them from information i found at geekhack, deskthority and overclock.net and made references to them at the design page (http://www.key64.com/keyboards) with the hope someday i will make it real.Geekhack is a wonderful place to anybody who find keyboards exciting, but is very addictive so i decided to stay away for a while, Dox: your keybord "the dox keyboard" is awesome, while i still prefer to be minimalistic in design, and follow the key64's motto "No more keys you can type on" i wish you make your design a reality, and share your experiences with us as you have one on the past with the staggered one.keep up the good work !p.d. Input Nirvana: i don't like the idea of a trackpoint inside a keyboard. I have a thinkpad and in my personal experience is so painful and is not as faster and as comfortable as a trackball, right now i use a logitech marble mouse, coming from a kensigton trackball.

I'm not a trackpoint fan at all. Not. At. All. It's a means to an end. I have only got 4 options to have a pointing device built into the keyboard so you don't take your fingers off home row.1) Trackpoint. It exists.2) Scroll wheel. Custom. Narrower, with the side-to-side movement. This would have to be made, I have notes and intend to try it out next year, but I'm not very hopeful of a positive outcome.3) Apple scrollball from the Mighty Mouse or equal. I've seen these on some smartphones. The Apple scrollball does not move the cursor, but the screen, so I need to look into this more.4) Thumb scroll ball (ie: Alphagrip)

Love the Key64, I reference it in the Split Kinesis Mod wiki.I need info on your firmware ability!P.S.-You never responded to my emails!!!!

Also about the chair mount. I am able to replicate the one that is shown, or modify a similar type of unit. If you want that to happen, PM me.

Yup, trackpoint is a means to an end. I so much want to be on the home row, that I configured mouse keys on right side of my keyboard that work when I hold Caps Lock (mapped to AltGr). A trackpoint would be far far better than mouse keys, and of course I would still have a mouse or trackball next to the keyboard.But for simple things like moving the mouse from one window to another a trackpoint on the keyboard is great.

I mean sometimes you literally have to move your hand several inches and grab the mouse/trackball, just to move the mouse pointer less than an inch, which is a terrible waste, and that's where mouse keys or a trackpoint come in.

I also own a Fingerworks Touchstream, which has mousing on the keyboard itself, and that feature is so amazingly awesome that you can't believe.

Ditto, I much prefer a mouse to a trackpoint but I would never buy a laptop that did not have one. . . more specifically, I do not buy laptops that have touchpads. They are the third bane of my existence next to table booths at restaurants and those three specialty USB plugs you find on various digital cameras.

[ATTACH=CONFIG]35720[/ATTACH]

[ATTACH=CONFIG]35721[/ATTACH]

[ATTACH=CONFIG]35723[/ATTACH]

[ATTACH=CONFIG]35724[/ATTACH]

These are the things that I hate.

Anyway, getting back to the topic at hand, I still think it shouldn't be standard but if it is going to come with the PCB ready, a standard type, size, and configuration has to be decided on and it has to be one that we could get without necessarily ripping open another keyboard (though I have a couple rubberdome IBM's with trackpoints just screaming for me to do it.)

I also own a Fingerworks Touchstream, which has mousing on the keyboard itself, and that feature is so amazingly awesome that you can't believe.

Hi, while i don't like a trackpoint in a keyboard (just personal preference), the idea to have a mouse on a keyboard is a must have, specially when you have to work with CAD applications, that could sound strange, but when you have to position the mouse on a specific pixel then the keyboard is the perfect companion because their input is not as analog as the mouse tends to be.Another useful aspect is when you have to scroll through a webpage for example, that would be nice for me.That's my idea of a mouse just using keys, while pressing the Alt-Gr some keys become the mouse, others the roller up/down, other the mouse clicks, and others will give you the mouse speed.(http://www.key64.com/design/alt-gr-pressed2.png/image_large)

Here's my version of mouse keys, using it on an Ubuntu machine and KBC Poker keybard. Note that I use the us(altgr-intl) keyboard layout on all my machines, since I type Dvorak on the Kinesis but QWERTY on staggered keyboards such as the Poker.

If it goes to production I'll buy three. One thing though - I really need a third key above the first double wide in the thumb block. Let's not just use the Kinesis design but improve on it. That extra key will allow for three modifier keys on both sides (Windows, Alt, Control or Command, Option, Control)

I'm not sold on the trackpoint yet myself, but I imagine it'd probably be optional anyway.

...

Want me to put you on the list as under $400?

Like so many others, I'm confident that I'd want one at $300. I might have to think a bit about a cost that's significantly above that, but I like this idea enough that I can't rule it out. How's that for a mushy answer? I guess "$300+" works for now.

I'm always surprised to hear ergonomic arguments in favor of the TrackPoint. I can't use them because they drive my tendonitis wild, so I view them as an RSI disaster. I used to work on projects with a group run by the inventor of the TrackPoint. This view wasn't very popular there.

One thing though - I really need a third key above the first double wide in the thumb block. Let's not just use the Kinesis design but improve on it. That extra key will allow for three modifier keys on both sides (Windows, Alt, Control or Command, Option, Control)

I like the idea of the three modifiers being available on both sides. What would that change do to the position of the thumb block relative to the rest of the keys? Or did I not follow what you were suggesting?

I like the idea of the three modifiers being available on both sides. What would that change do to the position of the thumb block relative to the rest of the keys? Or did I not follow what you were suggesting?

The blocks look like Kinesis copies, which is good, but they both have an empty spot above the first thumb double key. In other words, have three single keys along the top, and three (including the shared corner key) along the back side, half surrounding the two vertical double keys. Make sense? The three top keys could be the three modifiers, with the back two the navigation keys, as for the Kinesis. I really with Kinesis just added that one extra key.

It would need to move out slightly from the other block. On the Kinesis an extra key should fit there, maybe if they moved the block out a millimeter or two.

Like so many others, I'm confident that I'd want one at $300. I might have to think a bit about a cost that's significantly above that, but I like this idea enough that I can't rule it out. How's that for a mushy answer? I guess "$300+" works for now.

Changed!

Quote from: Architect;476509

One thing though - I really need a third key above the first double wide in the thumb block. Let's not just use the Kinesis design but improve on it. That extra key will allow for three modifier keys on both sides (Windows, Alt, Control or Command, Option, Control)

(emphasis mine)That's a good quote for the project. Improving on the kinesis would be pretty excellent. I've never seen one, so I really don't know for sure how that'd work out, but the cool part is: if you don't need any extra keys: you don't have to use them.

Quote from: wrtcedar;476527

I'm always surprised to hear ergonomic arguments in favor of the TrackPoint. I can't use them because they drive my tendonitis wild, so I view them as an RSI disaster. I used to work on projects with a group run by the inventor of the TrackPoint. This view wasn't very popular there.

Ugh, I used to have to put my wrists (and hands) in ice for 20 minutes, back when I was doing gymnastics. As a whole, Men's gymnastics is much worse on the wrists than women's, and pommel-horse especially so. Luckily, I don't seem to have any lasting issues. Anyway, I've not really been a fan of the TP, though I now prefer them to touchpads when working on customer's computers at work (I work at a warranty laptop repair center near college) because it's easier to use when the computer in question is up on shelf, so you can't see the touchpad. I'm still unsure about their use on keyboards, though.

Anyway, I'm sure there will be an option to omit them from the final design. Also, I'm sure this is the only way to keep everyone happy about it, as it seems that half the people will only take one if it's concluded, and the other half don't want it if it's there. Having it as an option seems the only way to do, despite the added engineering difficulty.

Quote from: Architect;476913

Yeah that's possible, but the beauty and usability of the three modifier across the top, and the hole there just looks made for it.

Well I'm game for a couple either way, but the three would be awesome if anybody else likes the idea.

I agree with you: it seems like a great idea to me, though as I said, I'm a little unsure about how it'll work out in practice, as I've not had any experience with using my thumbs on a keyboard like that.

Hmm, adding jacks for extra switches/footpedals might also be a good idea.

There's a whole world of accessibility switches out there - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Switch_accessThey use a 3.5mm stereo jack. The vast majority are overpriced, but it looks quite easy to construct your own.

Is that what you meant?

I think it's a great idea, and I'm prepared to pay a bit more for it.

I'm not too worried about the extra key, but I prefer your placement rather than shifting the block further out.

Actually, if it's only a couple, and no-one else wants to do it, I'd be willing to solder people's together and quickly test them for just the cost of shipping if need be. I like through-hole soldering.

1. Make the keys a true matrix layout. You have lined up the keys vertically, but not horizontally. Kensis/TypeMatrix is a true matrix keyboard. By doing this you'll also be able to save cost as the casting would be smaller.2. Move the 6 key back to the right side. All the good split mechanical keyboards have the 6 on the right side. Pushing the +/= key to the double size one is fine.3. Use Kensis' layout of splitting the up/down left/right keys is probably the best thing to do. This way you can keep the {[]} keys together on the right side like Kensis4. Investigate how much would it cost to also have anodized aluminium keycaps :D This way you can making it a selling feature that the entire keyboard is aluminium

It is more ergonomic to have this layout since this board won't have the curvature of Kenesis. It'll be CNC machined, so you're paying for the billet anyways. 6 key... already explained many times in the thread.Anodized aluminum caps will cost more than the keyboard.

1. Make the keys a true matrix layout. You have lined up the keys vertically, but not horizontally. Kensis/TypeMatrix is a true matrix keyboard. By doing this you'll also be able to save cost as the casting would be smaller.2. Move the 6 key back to the right side. All the good split mechanical keyboards have the 6 on the right side. Pushing the +/= key to the double size one is fine.3. Use Kensis' layout of splitting the up/down left/right keys is probably the best thing to do. This way you can keep the {[]} keys together on the right side like Kensis4. Investigate how much would it cost to also have anodized aluminium keycaps :D This way you can making it a selling feature that the entire keyboard is aluminium

That one made me laugh this morning. You are ready to sacrifice an ergonomic aspect of the keyboard to save a few bucks but you are interested in cold feeling aluminum keycaps that would increase the cost A LOT.

THE LAYOUT PRESENTED IS NOT FINAL. THE CONTROLLER WILL BE PROGRAMMABLE.(I hope this one will be clear enough)

Right, so clearly any claims about a keyboard that doesn't yet exist are purely theoretical anyway.

So the theory goes with this 'board, is that -like the kinesis- it's not staggered vertically, so your fingers will only have to move up and down between rows (not the little bit side to side they do now). The reason they're not completely symmetrical vertically is to accommodate for the greater length of the middle fingers: that way you'll be able to type with them all at the same extension/inclination. A "normal" matrix 'board wouldn't allow you to do this.

Now in practice: we won't really know until the keyboards are done, and even then we wouldn't know unless they got tested professionally, but that's how the theory goes.

So: it's based on the fact that your fingers aren't all the same length vertically: it's meant to match up to your fingers, and as a result isn't "true matrix". If you don't have to move your fingers as much, or contort them very much to type, then it should be more ergonomic.

I'd also argue that the kinesis isn't "true matrix" either, but I don't have one, and it's beside the point and "splitting hairs", but it's my opinion that this keyboard and the kinesis should be ergonomically superior to a "normal" matrix keyboard.

So the theory goes with this 'board, is that -like the kinesis- it's not staggered vertically, so your fingers will only have to move up and down between rows (not the little bit side to side they do now).

I would say that the Kinesis Contoured is vertically staggered. Counting only on the home row, the offsets between index, middle and ring finger is very small, but the offset from the ring finger column to the little finger column is about 40% -- about as much as on flat vertically staggered keyboards.

I stand corrected on the Kinesis. It is not a true matrix. The only one currently in production seems to be TypeMatrix. You cannot compare the Kinesis to this keyboard. This keyboard is flat while the Kinesis has key wells. That might explain why Kinesis did not do a true matrix.

I would say that the Kinesis Contoured is vertically staggered. Counting only on the home row, the offsets between index, middle and ring finger is very small, but the offset from the ring finger column to the little finger column is about 40% -- about as much as on flat vertically staggered keyboards.

(http://www.ergocanada.com/products/keyboards/advantage_images/kinesis_orthogonal_keywell_609x390.jpg)(courtesy of ergo canada)It doesn't really look that way to me from the pictures, but I trust another user's first-hand testimony, especially when I still haven't seen one firsthand.

Quote from: Pyrolistical;478745

I stand corrected on the Kinesis. It is not a true matrix. The only one currently in production seems to be TypeMatrix. You cannot compare the Kinesis to this keyboard. This keyboard is flat while the Kinesis has key wells. That might explain why Kinesis did not do a true matrix.

Firstly: don't lose heart! There are lots of POS boards (from Access-is, tipro, and cherry) that are "true-matrix" that you may be interested in. Typematrix isn't the only one.Second: I can indeed compare the two. You raise a good point: the keyboards are different. Still, from what I can see, the Kinesis strives to take into account finger motion, and relative finger length by using keywells and a stagger situated to each finger. While we can contrast these keyboards in the keywell area, we can compare them in many other ways.

In fact, now that I think of it, a large breadth of comparisons can be made.both are keyboardsboth will be programmibleboth use cherry MX keyswitchesboth use USB cables (is this true for the modern kinesis?)both are designed for ergonomics to some degree

There are some important contrasts you bright up:the kinesis has keywells, this is "flat"the kinesis isn't splittable, this is split.

While these clearly are differences, they do not solely define a keyboard. All similarities can be compared. If there were no contrasting remarks to be made, then it would follow that the two are indistinguishable.

Like I said: I feel that the kinesis doesn't have a "true matrix" (good thing) because it tries to take into account the relative finger lengths. This one does, too (to some extent). Now, I haven't greatly studied ergonomics, but I feel like I'm at least on the right track here.

Of course, all Kinesis Advantage models are USB and even have an integrated USB hub for hooking up 2 more devices.

Quote

Like I said: I feel that the kinesis doesn't have a "true matrix" (good thing) because it tries to take into account the relative finger lengths. This one does, too (to some extent). Now, I haven't greatly studied ergonomics, but I feel like I'm at least on the right track here.

Yes, you are! But we need to be careful not to overdo it with the "wave" pattern. Subtle is key. Even on the Kinesis I'm not a huge fan of the keywells being so curved/deep, I would prefer them to be a little flatter actually.

Dox, I think you should make it exactly how you have in mind. You have my 3 orders and all the other guys. I think that any suggestions such as drastic adjustments to key arrangement should just be ignored outright. I love how people come in and try to piss on the project and mark their territory after people have already shown interest in it as is and before it even gets off the ground.

I can imagine the Wright Brothers almost having enough funds to get their plane built and some jagoff steps in and is all like "hey, ya' know I might possibly consider putting in a couple bucks but I think the wings should be straighter since it would save money." You respond, "well the wings are not perfectly straight for a reason, they have a bump in them, otherwise it wouldn't fly as well." Then him, "do you have any proof that the wings aren't better off perfectly straight, huh? Mr. Wright? Huh?"

Thanks inaneframe, I'm starting to think that I should do it like I did for my doxkb. Build one for myself to test the concept and design and give my drawings to those who want to build some. That way, they would have the possibility to tweak the design to their needs or try to organize a group buy to lower the cost. I really don't have the time to manage a group buy and I want to get it done.

In the last 2 days, I tried to design a new case that would cost a lot less than the original I couldn't even afford one with the quote that I got. I'll post some pics soon.

Due to unfavourable financial circumstances, if this does not come to somewhere around $150-200, im afraid i cant really be part of it.

I'll update.

Cool, thanks DOX. One difference here is that it'd likely cost a lot less for 30 cases to be made than a one-off for you. I suspect it's a little more reasonable for people to print up PCB's for the Doxkb, and come up with a plate than it would be for this project. Ultimately, it's up to you, though.

Have you considered getting someone else to handle distribution, etc of this GB (and just have you do the designwork)?

I'll look forward to new pictures. Hopefully we can get this down to a price everyone can afford.

If it helps, I don't care at all for an aluminum case. The main thing about this keyboard is the split and the ergonomics, not the case material. Plastic is fine by me. I don't even care about the color.

If it helps, I don't care at all for an aluminum case. The main thing about this keyboard is the split and the ergonomics, not the case material. Plastic is fine by me. I don't even care about the color.

You are such a non-elitest. I don't know if I can be seen around with you.

Not to rain on anyone's parade or efforts, but... add me as another for whom the aluminum case is the least interesting aspect of this keyboard. If I have to pay $400, more than half of that is for the case. I'd much rather pay $150-$250 with a wood or plastic case.

Just to clear a misconception about the case material. The same layered case in acrylic would cost around 20$ more by hand than the current aluminium one.It's not the material that is expensive, it's the time to machine/cut the plates that is the main part of the cost.

If I was building hundreds or thousands of keyboards, I would get some injection moulds and a plastic case but for the low quantity, there is no magical trick around the cost.

The case will cost more than half of the keyboard no matter the material. Nothing prevents you from designing your own keyboard if you think you can do this for 150$ (this is what I thought before I did my doxkb witch cost me around 400 each).

I think the effort on the case is worth while. I hired a maltron a few years back. The reactions people had went from positive (or weird) changed instantly to cheap rubbish if they picked it up. Everyone who felt the weight assumed that if it's lightweight, then it's cheap and tat (as the maltron is much, much lighter than it looks).

If there's a choice between materials that cost roughly the same, I'd recommend the heavier option.

Just to clear a misconception about the case material. The same layered case in acrylic would cost around 20$ more by hand than the current aluminium one.It's not the material that is expensive, it's the time to machine/cut the plates that is the main part of the cost.

Thank you for clearing up where the cost comes from. I wasn't implying that I could do better, I was assuming the cost was due to the aluminum.

So... $220 for the plates/case. If we are ordering the switches as a whole, we'll get super-discount pricing from mouser (like $0.79/switch). What are we estimating on 25-50 PCB's: $50/hand? we could do single layer, with using the cutoffs from the diodes to make jumpers if that'll acceptibly bring the price down.

Finally: WOW dox: that layer case will look awesome. I'd buy two if I could afford it. Have you looked into CNC'ing a tool for a stamping press? We could get them all manufactured in 5 minutes if we did that.

How about 3D printing the case? Heck, with a layered case, it can even be a DIY cardboard affair at minimal cost!

[ATTACH=CONFIG]36282[/ATTACH]

Dox, one suggestion for your plates. If you can use thicker materials for the middle layers, then you don't have to cut as many plates, and that should lower the cost due to fewer layers to cut. You would likely still use thinner (1/16" or 1/8") plates for top and bottom layers.

Have you thought about broadening the audience a bit? Throw it on Kickstarter and get 100 people to pay $300. It couldn't hurt.

I thought about it but with my current job, I don't have the time to manage something like this.

Quote from: dorkvader;480396

So... $220 for the plates/case. If we are ordering the switches as a whole, we'll get super-discount pricing from mouser (like $0.79/switch). What are we estimating on 25-50 PCB's: $50/hand? we could do single layer, with using the cutoffs from the diodes to make jumpers if that'll acceptibly bring the price down.

Finally: WOW dox: that layer case will look awesome. I'd buy two if I could afford it. Have you looked into CNC'ing a tool for a stamping press? We could get them all manufactured in 5 minutes if we did that.

The PCB will be double sided. 50$ per hand is a good guess. I pretty sure that machining stamping tools would cost a lot more than the current laser cutting.

Quote from: sordna;480401

How about 3D printing the case? Heck, with a layered case, it can even be a DIY cardboard affair at minimal cost!

It could be done but I'm not sure about the cost. I really don't think that it would reduce the price significantly. It can be done in cardboard as you said (and litster demonstrated) but I'm going with aluminium.

Quote from: litster;480498

(Attachment) 36282[/ATTACH]

Dox, one suggestion for your plates. If you can use thicker materials for the middle layers, then you don't have to cut as many plates, and that should lower the cost due to fewer layers to cut. You would likely still use thinner (1/16" or 1/8") plates for top and bottom layers.

I thought about it but the way the case is designed, there is not a lot of layer combination possible without having to machine the plates afterward (something I try to avoid to keep cost down).

Just read though the whole thread and I'm in if its less than $400 and ready constructed!How far can the 2 parts be separated because I'm thinking I can use this with a Wacom tablet in the centre?

I ordered a few different connectors and cables a couple days ago to decide what is the best way to connect the 2 halves. I plan on having 2 short cables coming out from each halve that could be connected directly together or connected with an extra cable between them to give more separation.

About connecting, and interconnecting, it's not a HUGE deal, but are you plannning on carrying the ground as well? Ideally, you'd have the connector connect to the aluminium case, and carry that "ground" to the other side. This would connect to the USB connector at the end. In an ideal world, it'd also be connected to the ground of the computer (earth) for proper grounding techniques, and it won't interfere with the operation, but it's something to consider as well.

The difference between neutral and ground is important, especially for analog electronics, and safety purposes. It's not analog, and the voltage/current is too low to be a safety issue, but if we're designing it, we should do it right.

So... $220 for the plates/case. If we are ordering the switches as a whole, we'll get super-discount pricing from mouser (like $0.79/switch). What are we estimating on 25-50 PCB's: $50/hand? we could do single layer, with using the cutoffs from the diodes to make jumpers if that'll acceptibly bring the price down.

Finally: WOW dox: that layer case will look awesome. I'd buy two if I could afford it. Have you looked into CNC'ing a tool for a stamping press? We could get them all manufactured in 5 minutes if we did that.

As for switches, I highly recommend people joining the switch group buy over at DT. We currently have a price of 0.60$ per switch. That includes reds and clears! Im getting my switches for the dox there.

Btw, not sure if it's been mentioned or whether it's feasible but I was wondering if we could have a detachable usb cable instead of the built-in one (like the HHKB). That way, it'll be much easier to replace faulty cables and/or use extensions.

As for switches, I highly recommend people joining the switch group buy over at DT. We currently have a price of 0.60$ per switch. That includes reds and clears! Im getting my switches for the dox there.

Aw man, why come DT has to get all the good GB's? When's this gonna end? I want about a million of each.

Thanks for the info Ascaii.

Quote from: fim;480898

Btw, not sure if it's been mentioned or whether it's feasible but I was wondering if we could have a detachable usb cable instead of the built-in one (like the HHKB). That way, it'll be much easier to replace faulty cables and/or use extensions.

I think it should have a detachable one, though I'm not 100% sure on the internals layout and placement of the microcontroller.

The teensy has a mini-b USB port on the shortest side of it anyway. If you wanted it hardwired, you'd have to mod it. Given the shape of the keyboard and the likely placement of the teensy board, it doesn't look like the port will be external to the device. This means the cable is easily replaceable by popping it open but not "detachable" on the fly.

The teensy has a mini-b USB port on the shortest side of it anyway. If you wanted it hardwired, you'd have to mod it. Given the shape of the keyboard and the likely placement of the teensy board, it doesn't look like the port will be external to the device. This means the cable is easily replaceable by popping it open but not "detachable" on the fly.

Yeah, I looked through the images, and that's what it looks like. I think on mine, I'd make (or buy) a mini-USB cable to plug into the teensy, and come out of the case, about a few inches (like in the concept art) then plug it into a normal extension cable for length. I want this to be portable.

As for switches, I highly recommend people joining the switch group buy over at DT. We currently have a price of 0.60$ per switch. That includes reds and clears! Im getting my switches for the dox there.

Dox, what kind of shop does this have to go through to get the plates cut? I have a few contacts in a couple different machine shops that might be able to get a deal on if that's the kind of service you need. I'd be happy to at least look into it for you, but I don't know what to tell them to get an accurate quote. Thanks.

Dox, what kind of shop does this have to go through to get the plates cut? I have a few contacts in a couple different machine shops that might be able to get a deal on if that's the kind of service you need. I'd be happy to at least look into it for you, but I don't know what to tell them to get an accurate quote. Thanks.

The plates just need to be cut with a plasma cutter or something similar with high accuracy. I was planning to do the threading and the bolt countersunk myself to reduce the cost. I can send you a DWG file for the plates required for 1 hand later today. That way, you should be able to get an accurate quote.

would water jet cutting work? That's what we use for the Phantom mounting plate. BiNiaRiS found a shop to do it for us. for the Phantom mounting plate, minimum order is $110, but it shouldj't be a problem for you since you have a lot of plates to cut for each case. They should also have 1/8" aluminum. the downside is I think you will need to paint it.

For a full keyboard, how many plates are there, and how many of the plates are exactly the same?

Water jet cutting can work too as long as it leaves clean edges. I need 11 1/16 plates by hand so 22 by keyboard. I can't tell you yet how many plates are exactly the same but there wont be many. Maybe 2 pair of 2 plates by hand are exactly the same.

I looked at your case design again. I see the differences between plates. You maybe able to get more plates to be the same cut if you don't screw in from both the top and the bottom at different locations. For example, have holes through and through from the top layer to the bottom layer. You would need to use different screws and nuts though.

Another thing is, if you can make the holes and cable cut out symmetrical, then you could potentially have more plates be the same. One of the sides have two holes for cable out, if they are lined up vertically at different height, then you could have the same plates for the cut out. I am not sure if the PCB design could allow this though.

I want to keep my nut-less design (screw top and bottom) to keep a low minimum height.I cant place the holes for the USB and right/left hand cable stacked vertically. With a CAD drawing, the machine programming take only a few seconds (in modern machine shops) so I don't think I would save that much in having multiple similar plates as the major part of the cost is the cutting time itself.

Hi , I come back to work on the key64 (http://www.key64.com/), currently i am working on the first pcb prototype, i have made some changes regarding the initial design (http://www.key64.com/design), one of the most important is the introduction of 64th key, which is a special key just for the purpose of programming the keyboard without the need for dip switches.

Following excelent prinsvalium tutorial (http://geekhack.org/showwiki.php?title=Design+your+own+Teensy+keyboard+in+KiCAD+how-to+guide), this is the 3d view of the left halve i got now:

(http://www.key64.com/news-1/3dview.jpg/image_large)

As soon as i finished it i will post the files at the key64 website for anyone who wants to adapt to their needs.

Another change: the keyboard will have 4 leds:

Num Lock

Caps Lock

Scroll Lock

Programming Led, a.k.a. 64 key led.

I also made some changes regarding the placement of the keys, i am sure it varies according to the hands shape of each person, but here is the pdf (http://www.key64.com/progress/pcb-left.pdf) if somebody wants to test the footprint and check if that really follow your hand. In particular i have changed the position of the thumbs and redesign the wave. I would like to hear comments about it, i am not sure if that is too exagerated but that's what i got from my hands, or maybe we could make a "standard" wave.

This is the idea i have on how to join the two halves:(http://www.key64.com/progress/separation.jpg/image_preview)is a cheaper retractable alternative that could be implemented in the ErgoDox.

1. nice teensy location next to the thumb. I much prefer it that way, though I'm not sure if DOX would want to completely redesign his.

2. The programming LED is great. Having a programming mode is cool, but having an LED so you know when you're in it is great. Hmm, Another idea is to have a row of LED's somewhere that light up if you're in another shifted layer (for example, hitting capslock shifts to all caps mode. Hitting fn+shift might move it to mousekeys mode, etc. Having lights available to the user to indicate this would be great. Like one lights up when fn is pressed (or if you have a way to "lock" the mode) and another would light up when altgraph is pressed, etc.

3. So you'd join them with a rainbow cable? Wouldn't you be concerned that it'd break, or pull out? I imagine you'd have feet on the keyboard, so that the excess cable can go under the keyboard. Hmm, you could use beefy connectors like the ones that were used in then (unrelated) project:http://www.amb.org/forum/a-delta1-hat-trick-of-sorts-t776.html

I'll throw out some ideas for connecting two halves together that I researched for my own split project, generally from easiest to hardest, less awesome to more awesome, and obviously less time intensive to "wtf this is taking forever" :p

Use two controllers, that are separately programmed, with separate USB cables.

Use one controller, with one usb cable, and bring the matrix over from the other half via some cable (ideally commonly and cheaply available).

Use two controllers, that are separately programmed, with separate USB cables, and small cable (RJ11 or such) interconnect using SPI (or similar protocol) between the controllers. This allows for things like mod keys on one half affecting the keys on the other half like in 2, but with flexibility of using the halves individually if so desired.

Use two controllers, each of which picks up its key layout from a single shared memory location. Each half also has a USB2 hub; the controller interconnect is a USB3 cable going into the hub of the other half, with the SPI traffic of step 3 happening over the extra unused wires of the cable.

1. nice teensy location next to the thumb. I much prefer it that way, though I'm not sure if DOX would want to completely redesign his.

2. The programming LED is great. Having a programming mode is cool, but having an LED so you know when you're in it is great. Hmm, Another idea is to have a row of LED's somewhere that light up if you're in another shifted layer (for example, hitting capslock shifts to all caps mode. Hitting fn+shift might move it to mousekeys mode, etc. Having lights available to the user to indicate this would be great. Like one lights up when fn is pressed (or if you have a way to "lock" the mode) and another would light up when altgraph is pressed, etc.

3. So you'd join them with a rainbow cable? Wouldn't you be concerned that it'd break, or pull out? I imagine you'd have feet on the keyboard, so that the excess cable can go under the keyboard. Hmm, you could use beefy connectors like the ones that were used in then (unrelated) project:http://www.amb.org/forum/a-delta1-hat-trick-of-sorts-t776.html

1: I personally don't like this placement.2: Good idea but I can't implement this yet.3: There is no place for those beefy connectors and there is no place for a retractable cable in the case.

Quote from: Parak;483034

I'll throw out some ideas for connecting two halves together that I researched for my own split project, generally from easiest to hardest, less awesome to more awesome, and obviously less time intensive to "wtf this is taking forever" :p

Use two controllers, that are separately programmed, with separate USB cables.

Use one controller, with one usb cable, and bring the matrix over from the other half via some cable (ideally commonly and cheaply available).

Use two controllers, that are separately programmed, with separate USB cables, and small cable (RJ11 or such) interconnect using SPI (or similar protocol) between the controllers. This allows for things like mod keys on one half affecting the keys on the other half like in 2, but with flexibility of using the halves individually if so desired.

Use two controllers, each of which picks up its key layout from a single shared memory location. Each half also has a USB2 hub; the controller interconnect is a USB3 cable going into the hub of the other half, with the SPI traffic of step 3 happening over the extra unused wires of the cable.

1: no.2: Yes3: no.4: no.I will use 1 controller only. Some other ideas are interesting.

I'll throw out some ideas for connecting two halves together that I researched for my own split project, generally from easiest to hardest, less awesome to more awesome, and obviously less time intensive to "wtf this is taking forever" :p

I'll add my thoughts from my own yet-another-split-project.

Quote

1. Use two controllers, that are separately programmed, with separate USB cables.

Doesn't work on OS X, which treats separate keyboards as fully independent — a modifier on one doesn't affect others.

Quote

2. Use one controller, with one usb cable, and bring the matrix over from the other half via some cable (ideally commonly and cheaply available).

Needs a relatively large interconnect. (25-pin RS232 is the only common cable I can think of, other than plain ribbon.)

Quote

3. Use two controllers, that are separately programmed, with separate USB cables, and small cable (RJ11 or such) interconnect using SPI (or similar protocol) between the controllers. This allows for things like mod keys on one half affecting the keys on the other half like in 2, but with flexibility of using the halves individually if so desired.

This is similar to what I'm doing, with three (or more) controllers. Each key unit will have a small controller (ATmegax8, probably) to scan the matrix and report to the larger master controller (Teensy or similar), which will handle programmable remapping and USB to the host. The wire protocol between key units and master will be good ol' PS/2 — it's proven in practice, has code libraries, and permits the parts to be tested independently: the key units with regular PS/2-to-USB converters, and the master with existing PS/2 keyboards. It also means that the master will, incidentally, itself be a reprogrammable multi-port PS/2-to-USB converter.

Needs a relatively large interconnect. (25-pin RS232 is the only common cable I can think of, other than plain ribbon.)

It's relatively simple enough to use a hardwired multiconductor cable, though depending on the conductors needed it might be hard to source in smaller quantities, and obviously inconvenient should the length need to be adjusted. One more possibility I could offer here, since we'd need around 13-15 wires, is an HDMI connector. They are cheap, small profile (even smaller as micro or mini), have cheap cables of any length, and carry 19 pins. The downside is that even regular HDMI connectors are SMD mounted - I could only find one that seems to have TH mounting and that's still very fine pitch, so soldering these in any case would be non-trivial.

Thanks for the tip ! HDMI cable and connector will do ! at least for the key64 it fills the requirement for a 8x8 matrix (16 lines), plus two leds and 1 ground = 19 lines which is exactly the same number of lines the hdmi cable offers ![ATTACH=CONFIG]36574[/ATTACH][ATTACH=CONFIG]36575[/ATTACH]However i am thinking that this will be done on the key64 version 2, right now i just prefer to measure and latter i will optimize otherwise i will never finish the keyboard.

1. nice teensy location next to the thumb. I much prefer it that way, though I'm not sure if DOX would want to completely redesign his.

This is the unused space on the board i didn't find any other place to put besides the other halve at the same place.

Quote

2. The programming LED is great. Having a programming mode is cool, but having an LED so you know when you're in it is great. Hmm, Another idea is to have a row of LED's somewhere that light up if you're in another shifted layer (for example, hitting capslock shifts to all caps mode. Hitting fn+shift might move it to mousekeys mode, etc. Having lights available to the user to indicate this would be great. Like one lights up when fn is pressed (or if you have a way to "lock" the mode) and another would light up when altgraph is pressed, etc.

That's a good idea, however, if you do touch typing that's irrelevant, i just use them for "debuging purposes" and for backwards compatibility with PC 104 keys.I need to keep key64 minimalist in design, while i not pretend to start a discussion about how many keys a keyboard should have, just take a look at the apple remote control vs. direct tv remote control:[ATTACH=CONFIG]36576[/ATTACH][ATTACH=CONFIG]36577[/ATTACH]I would bet Directv remote control was designed by engineers.While apple remote control was designed with people with usuability in mind (usually none of them engineers)That's the way we need to think about keyboards, first focus on usability, then focus on engineering.

Quote

3. So you'd join them with a rainbow cable? Wouldn't you be concerned that it'd break, or pull out? I imagine you'd have feet on the keyboard, so that the excess cable can go under the keyboard. Hmm, you could use beefy connectors like the ones that were used in then (unrelated) project:http://www.amb.org/forum/a-delta1-hat-trick-of-sorts-t776.html

Some similar ones, i don't have the time to polish those keyboard details, i just want to follow the programming rule "First measure, then optimize", which implies i need it working ASAP, there is still a long way to go and optimizations could be done later.

I like the HDMI cable idea a lot! I will order a few connectors and check the possibilities.

Here (http://search.digikey.com/us/en/products/1746679-1/A35075-ND/1246897) is one of the few TH ones, but it's with a panel mount (meh). Haven't yet been able to find others (that are purchasable), so it's all SMD otherwise.

Here (http://search.digikey.com/us/en/products/1746679-1/A35075-ND/1246897) is one of the few TH ones, but it's with a panel mount (meh). Haven't yet been able to find others (that are purchasable), so it's all SMD otherwise.

If it's just a matter of pins, I think Dual Link DVI Cables have even more - something like 29 pins (24 on the normal array, + 5 by way of the little dash pin with 4 regular pins around it). I am NOT an engineer :) .

EDIT: Also, what about wireless? Or am I just nuts. Like one receiver (USB) both halves connect to it. Or, the left half connects to the right half wireless, and the right half is USB to the computer.

And a link to other 3M solutions:http://www.digikey.com/product-highlights/us/en/3m-tenth-inch-headers/555

Really, instead of improperly using an existing standard cable (HDMI) for a use it's not intended, we should be using standard connectors that are meant to do what we want. What will happen if I plug my TV up to this by mistake? Sure, I'd be stupid to do that, but what if a kid gets it? Mistakes can be made. I prefer .100 pin headers anyway, and everyone likes strain relief.

Plus you can use rainbow cables to great effect (or black/grey, if you want). These pin headers come in 10-64 positions, so we can get one exactly the right length. They're easy to terminate, and look awesome. You can't go wrong!---Anyway, that's what I think we should do. Misusing the HDMI spec (much as I dislike it) just irks me.

I'd recommend not using any cables other than USB for the connection. If you want one side to connect to the other hang a hub off the one with a port off the back for the other to plug into. Most controllers (all I've seen at least) stick a hub first thing in the chain anyhow. Anyhow non USB cables will come back to haunt us for sure (always did in my experience at least). About the VID/PID don't try and get custom, ain't gonna happen. There are some generic blocks we can co-op I believe (been a while since I messed with this).

Edit: Yeah, two controllers, one with a hub if you like (nice esthetic but I don't personally care) and input USB port or two (can hang the local mouse off the other if you like - Kinesis does this). No ribbons, that'll be messy - to solder and maintain. No other cables, needs emphasis, you'll be chasing down all sorts of nasty issues (reliability, specs, etc)

1: Ribbon connected on the PCB with an external connectorPros: trough hole soldering, easy cable length modification, can use a verity of connector outside the case (DB15 in the example).Cons: cable coming out of the case.

I did some test, with the ribbon cable in shrink wrap, it wouldn't be too bad.[ATTACH=CONFIG]37017[/ATTACH][ATTACH=CONFIG]37018[/ATTACH]

2: HDMI connectorPros: Compact, detachable cable at the case, multiple cables available, less DIY.Cons: Not the intended use, some people might plug it into a tv :der:, SMT soldering might be hard or impossible for some.

I don't think there are any off-the-shelf parts that would let you power the remote unit over fiber.

Quote from: litster;486365

Dox, what is that cable connecting to the Teensy? Do you have a link to where I can buy one? I like it that it doesn't have the rubber arond the connector. Thanks.

Looks to me like a normal USB, but with the rubber taken off (or just not put on). I'll check mouser.---Forget mouser: here's some digikey:http://search.digikey.com/us/en/products/UX40A-MB-5P/H2958-ND/597534http://search.digikey.com/us/en/products/UX40-MB-5P/H2955-ND/597531---

Dox: I'm in favor of the massive 3M connector: It's great! but I also think option #1 will work just fine. Still, if it's available, why not go all out?

As I mentioned before, I don't think #2 HDMI is a good idea: too much con go wrong: not enough foolproofing. Maybe if we used an uncommon standard like 13W3, it'd work out.

You're right: finding the right corrector is hard, but if you can have it, it's amazing.

Looks to me like a normal USB, but with the rubber taken off (or just not put on). I'll check mouser.---Forget mouser: here's some digikey:http://search.digikey.com/us/en/products/UX40A-MB-5P/H2958-ND/597534http://search.digikey.com/us/en/products/UX40-MB-5P/H2955-ND/597531

If an IDC connector fits, that's great. Ribbon cables are ugly, and need to be crimped to length with an appropriate tool (or a hammer..), but can be sleeved during that process to look better-ish. Labor intensive, obviously.

Of course, if something like a DB15 or DB25 fit height-wise, that makes it even more heavy-duty, as those cables are actually better for external applications unlike ribbon cables which are easier to damage. Height is about 0.5" from the PCB for either connector. Cables are fairly common (http://www.monoprice.com/products/product.asp?c_id=102&cp_id=10215&cs_id=1021501&p_id=542&seq=1&format=2) for either one (http://www.monoprice.com/products/product.asp?c_id=102&cp_id=10212&cs_id=1021201&p_id=1583&seq=1&format=2).

I won't get into a debate (which it isn't really as Dox has the last word) which one makes more sense in practical or theoretical terms, especially since I'm still on the fence about getting this board :p

If an IDC connector fits, that's great. Ribbon cables are ugly, and need to be crimped to length with an appropriate tool (or a hammer..), but can be sleeved during that process to look better-ish. Labor intensive, obviously.

Of course, if something like a DB15 or DB25 fit height-wise, that makes it even more heavy-duty, as those cables are actually better for external applications unlike ribbon cables which are easier to damage. Height is about 0.5" from the PCB for either connector. Cables are fairly common (http://www.monoprice.com/products/product.asp?c_id=102&cp_id=10215&cs_id=1021501&p_id=542&seq=1&format=2) for either one (http://www.monoprice.com/products/product.asp?c_id=102&cp_id=10212&cs_id=1021201&p_id=1583&seq=1&format=2).

I won't get into a debate (which it isn't really as Dox has the last word) which one makes more sense in practical or theoretical terms, especially since I'm still on the fence about getting this board :p

I won't get into a debate (which it isn't really as Dox has the last word) which one makes more sense in practical or theoretical terms, especially since I'm still on the fence about getting this board :p

Added :p

Hmm, you're right about ribbon cables. I'll dig through the amphenol section of my mouser catalog and see what I may see. How many conductors were we after?

Heres another idea:Though this might be a little complicated...we could just have two cat5 ports on each halves. It would require sleeving two cat5 cables together, but cat5 cables and connectors are even more readily available then HDMI. It would be possible to make a custom cable with a shrink wrapped ribbon cable that terminates in two cat5 plugs. Personally I like the idea of having the locking tab on the cat5...and with two heads we would have 16 conductors.

Doesn't particularly matter what the total block is oriented as, it just needs to fit the pcb/case constraints. All I'm saying is that having the jacks oriented to each other so that the tabs are on opposite sides would make it easier to unplug the ganged connector. You could even epoxy the 2 together .

RJ45 jacks are even taller than DB15 connector, unfortunately, so I don't think they'd work. There's really not much out there that's readily accessible and meets our needs :/

Yeah, as you said, RJ45 are even taller than DB15 so there is no chance these will fit in the case. Look at all these HDMI cables (http://www.monoprice.com/products/subdepartment.asp?c_id=102&cp_id=10240). I think this option might be the best.

Nothings wrong with wireless, except I think it's been mentioned and it's rather cost prohibitive since you'll need a total of at least 3 'units'. 1: the receiver on the PC end, 2: left hand board transmitter, 3: right hand board transmitter. And that's only if you can find a tech that enables you to use 2 transmitters on 1 receiver and process both signals at the same time. Maybe ZigBee or something similar, but other than names I don't know too much about it.

Then of course you need a controller in each board to give the transmitter something to send, and then a controller on the receiver end to tell the PC what was sent. ouch, that's a lot of electronic gizmos.

Nothings wrong with wireless, except I think it's been mentioned and it's rather cost prohibitive since you'll need a total of at least 3 'units'. 1: the receiver on the PC end, 2: left hand board transmitter, 3: right hand board transmitter. And that's only if you can find a tech that enables you to use 2 transmitters on 1 receiver and process both signals at the same time. Maybe ZigBee or something similar, but other than names I don't know too much about it.

Then of course you need a controller in each board to give the transmitter something to send, and then a controller on the receiver end to tell the PC what was sent. ouch, that's a lot of electronic gizmos.

And, as the resident forum troll just unintentionally pointed out, wireless eats batteries, and you'll have your keyboard stop working when you're trying to snipe an auction or apologize to your girlfriend or something, sending you on a futile hunt for replacements, which are each bigger than the DB25 connector that was too bulky in the first place.

Hmm, just thought of something: we could carry power across two wires (very easy) and send the signals wirelessly. That is, if someone wants to come up with a workable solution that's not too expensive and will fit in the case.

This keyboard looks very interesting, sort of like a splittable TrulyErgonomic (or split flat Maltron) with thumb keys similar to a Kinesis, sweet! As a Colemak and Kinesis user for about 4 years, and having tried a TrulyErgonomic and liking it but missing the thumb keys, this keyboard looks right up my alley.

I could afford $400, would prefer no soldering, and would require international shipping. Reprogrammability in firmware is a must, as far as I can see this is a given (excellent, because I'd like to make a few adjustments: number row shifted one to the left, arrow keys and second Enter key on the left hand, and command/option/ctrl on the thumb(s), like my current layout (http://homepage.mac.com/boli/ars/80329_kinesis_colemak_small.png)). It would have to work properly with OS X.

If I'd like it I'd soon need a second one, too, but I won't order 2 right off the bat without having tried it or someone I trust try and review one.

Totally new here, and this caught my eye. Cannot help but *covet* this lovely keyboard. Nice work! I've had the Kinesis Classic and Advantage for over 10 years now, and as much as I love it, this keyboard just looks a whole lot sexier! Sign me up if you can make it for around $300! Thanks!

Wow, that looks pretty good! I looked on their order page, and I only see evaluation boards. I don't know where we can get the chips, and the company might want us to order 1,000 of them.

Quote from: boli;487822

This keyboard looks very interesting, sort of like a splittable TrulyErgonomic (or split flat Maltron) with thumb keys similar to a Kinesis, sweet! As a Colemak and Kinesis user for about 4 years, and having tried a TrulyErgonomic and liking it but missing the thumb keys, this keyboard looks right up my alley.

I could afford $400, would prefer no soldering, and would require international shipping. Reprogrammability in firmware is a must, as far as I can see this is a given (excellent, because I'd like to make a few adjustments: number row shifted one to the left, arrow keys and second Enter key on the left hand, and command/option/ctrl on the thumb(s), like my current layout (http://homepage.mac.com/boli/ars/80329_kinesis_colemak_small.png)). It would have to work properly with OS X.

If I'd like it I'd soon need a second one, too, but I won't order 2 right off the bat without having tried it or someone I trust try and review one.

I don't know how distribution will go, you may have to order two as a "leap of faith", or there may be more available (like what ragnarock does with his keycaps). I'll put you down for 1-2 if that's okay.

Quote from: mjoytan;487953

Hiya!

Totally new here, and this caught my eye. Cannot help but *covet* this lovely keyboard. Nice work! I've had the Kinesis Classic and Advantage for over 10 years now, and as much as I love it, this keyboard just looks a whole lot sexier! Sign me up if you can make it for around $300! Thanks!

QFN *shudder*. I tried prototyping a usb hub based on a qfn chip - not fun to solder at all, even with a heat gun. Should have gone with a schmartboard or an assembly service in retrospect. Alas, most new chips of interest will come in QFN or at best QFP.

Hmm, the SK7190 integrates a pointing stick controller too.. The chips look fairly low BOM, though I see no mention of key rollover/diode support.

The SK7190 is a pointing stick controller [del]only, no keyboard controller.[/del] ...brain fart... ok, it's also a keyboard controller.BTW, N-key roll over support is explicitely mentioned with the SK5102 chip: http://www.sprintek.com/products/SK5102.aspx

I'm interested in this and would like to be added to the list. I've not assembled something like this before, but that part sounds almost as fun as having this design actualized! I suppose i'm conditional on the price being at or under 400. Time to start saving I guess! =)

I'm interested in this and would like to be added to the list. I've not assembled something like this before, but that part sounds almost as fun as having this design actualized! I suppose i'm conditional on the price being at or under 400. Time to start saving I guess! =)

Related question, again sorry if it's buried in there somewhere but I didn't find it, what are the dimensions of the keyboard/each keypad? I'm concerned about the size, my Truly Ergonomic non split boards are really compact, and I've got a lot of controllers and such on my desk.

Hmm, you'll have to ask Dox. Often you can have that as part of your cad software. I don't remember exact sizing, but it'd be pretty easy to estimate. Each "key" is 0.75 inches wide. by that estimate, I'm getting less than 7.2 inches/hand (at the maximum width). Ofcourse this will be less if you tent them. The bulk of the matrix (not counting the thumbs) is 7.5 keys wide, so it should be just over 5.6 inches wide. Since they are pretty positionable, I'm sure they won't take up that much space.

Hmm, as I look at it again, I think the "wave" is too much. Especially as you curve your fingers to type the lower row (ZXCVB) having to put the ring and middle finger more forward than the others feels unnatural.

Hmm, as I look at it again, I think the "wave" is too much. Especially as you curve your fingers to type the lower row (ZXCVB) having to put the ring and middle finger more forward than the others feels unnatural.

Saw your post and answered it over there. The wave works for me, very natural, I'd vote to keep it. With split or curved designs like these the wave helps to auto-center the hands.

The thing I'm working on is size, assuming about an inch between the hands in the picture above that makes for a bigger keyboard than I'd like, and I'm not sure the advantage of the split, ergonomically speaking.

The split is essential, since people come in different sizes! As for the wave, I'm not against it, but I think it should be more subtle.

Maybe, OTOH everybody's hands meet in the middle too, as they do for all primates. I'm trying to understand if the split is a ergonomic feature, and why people think so. Not saying it isn't, just looking for the evidence.

Maybe, OTOH everybody's hands meet in the middle too, as they do for all primates. I'm trying to understand if the split is a ergonomic feature, and why people think so. Not saying it isn't, just looking for the evidence.

They meet, but depending on the width of the shoulders the angle changes, so at minimum the 2 halves should be able to be rotated. Not to mention people's positioning *preferences* can be freely accomodated. Also, some folks like to mount their keyboard halves on chair arms, etc. For example, I plan to tent this keyboard, build some angled cardboard props and make it semi-vertical. I wouldn't be able to do that if it weren't split.

The split is the most important feature in this keyboard, there are plenty non-split ergo keyboards in the market, Kinesis Advantage, Maltron, Truly Ergonomic, etc, it would be silly to create yet another.

This will be the first ergonomic, columnar layout, truly split (movable halves) keyboard, that's the whole point of this project.

I think one important aspect of the split is the inherent ability to then adjust the keyboard halves to varying degrees of tilt, as well as vary the distance between hands. I do not necessarily agree that the split is necessary if the keys are placed at angles that would not force your wrists to strain while flexing, as the standard keyboard layout would require. Halved keyboards however, allow you to dynamically alter your ergonomic situation on a whim. (This is at least the ergonomic theory behind the smartfish keyboard, though, on that board, they seem to have copied the terrible staggered key structure from 'standard' boards, which seem to assume humans have two right hands)

Quote from: Architect;491331

Maybe, OTOH everybody's hands meet in the middle too, as they do for all primates. I'm trying to understand if the split is a ergonomic feature, and why people think so. Not saying it isn't, just looking for the evidence.

Here is what I mean "more subtle", look at the left half of the keyboard, I moved the 3 middle columns down a little. Sorry for the sloppy copy/pasting but you get the point.

EDIT: I just realized the innermost column was at same level as the one next to it. I think the innermost column should be a bit lower so that the index finger doesn't have to overstretch. So apart from lowering the 3 middle columns, I also lowered the innermost column too:

This seems to be my "ideal" kb design. I was looking for a mix between Kinesis Advantage/Maltron 2D, and Kinesis Countoured - this looks like it!

I also think the Advantage/Maltron 2D designs should have symmetrical 3-modifier key layout and would be EXCELLENT with a well-placed touchpad!

I was going to put my next best hope in the Truly Ergonomic - but it's not even available! Your DOX looks even better. Hope it's available soon.

One more thing - I thought it would be good to have an area below the keys to rest your palms. Don't know if that's been discussed here yet.

Added :)

That's a good point: like the kinesis has the palmrests, etc. I still feel that the design should account for that ,but not have them inherent, that way one can make or add one's own to suit one's tastes.

Quote from: Pyrolistical;491313

I have a Kinesis and my biggest complaint is the moved += button. I see you have moved it as well as other keys.

That's a good point: like the kinesis has the palmrests, etc. I still feel that the design should account for that ,but not have them inherent, that way one can make or add one's own to suit one's tastes.

I think the present design is good. . If rests are desired then these (http://www.amazon.com/3M-Leatherette-Antimicrobial-Protection-WR305LE/dp/B0016OV5MQ/ref=sr_1_3?ie=UTF8&qid=1326714496&sr=8-3) should work fine, one on each hand tucked in right in front of the keyboard.

If rests are desired then these (http://www.amazon.com/3M-Leatherette-Antimicrobial-Protection-WR305LE/dp/B0016OV5MQ/ref=sr_1_3?ie=UTF8&qid=1326714496&sr=8-3) should work fine, one on each hand tucked in right in front of the keyboard.

Yes - you can add your own off-the-shelf wrist rests. The cons are that you have too many individual parts on your desk (especially if you have several other input devices/gadgets/whatever on your desk, like you had mentioned you do - I do too).

It'd be great if the DOX came with optional/removable palm rests - like the Truly Ergonomic, for example (looks like they did a good job with that - but I've only seen pictures). But I know this might be asking too much from Dox.

Quote from: moogatronic;491341

Halved keyboards however, allow you to dynamically alter your ergonomic situation on a whim.

Exactly. I like split because I can change my position at my desk throughout the day. I'm often at my computer all through the day, with a sit/stand desk. It's great getting to move the keyboard halves around on a "whim" to accommodate different positions. This really makes it feasible to be at your desk all day with a middle age body (heh) and not suffer (and in fact, enjoy it!).

I tried a split keyboard that was good for changing positions through the day - that was great. But it was still missing other features I wanted (mechanical, and matrix layout).

Another thing I like about the Dox is it looks like it doesn't have dedicated Function keys. I'd prefer Function keys on a separate, flat keypad/keyboard. (But the drawback is one more separate, corded device on your desk).

Truly Ergonomic, for example (looks like they did a good job with that - but I've only seen pictures). But I know this might be asking too much from Dox.

The TE wrist rest is fairly impressive. It has plastic smooth nubs or 'bolts that fit into corresponding sockets, plus the screws and form fitting shape. Acts like a part of the keyboard, it adds some size to the board and I'm surprised to find that I like it a lot. But I wouldn't recommend the EDox try to do this, too much risk/work for little reward.

I'm sort-of a fan of those wall-mount holes on routers and suchlike. Do you think they should be added to the bottom of the casing to ease in creating or adapting a tent or chair-mount setup? I sort-of feel that these things would be easier if there were something to grab onto.

(http://www.cisco.com/en/US/i/200001-300000/240001-250000/242001-243000/242657.jpg)Thanks to ciscohttp://www.cisco.com/en/US/docs/routers/access/1800/1841/hardware/installation/guide/18inst.html#wp1053401

Do you think they should be added to the bottom of the casing to ease in creating or adapting a tent or chair-mount setup?

For my own long-slow split project, I'm planning on using ball joints — specifically repurposed camera flash mounts, which are cheap and easy to get — at the back edge of the units. This wouldn't work as-is on the ErgoDox case (can't tap a hole in the layered edge) but something similar might.

For my own long-slow split project, I'm planning on using ball joints — specifically repurposed camera flash mounts, which are cheap and easy to get — at the back edge of the units. This wouldn't work as-is on the ErgoDox case (can't tap a hole in the layered edge) but something similar might.

(Attachment) 37764[/ATTACH]

hm...shouldn't there be enough space to make a hole for screws somewhere?

Assuming the case is made out of something ferrous, one could build a ram mount using these (http://www.ram-mount.com/CatalogResults/PartDetails/tabid/63/partid/082065080045051051057085/Default.aspx) as the attachment point to the keyboard half. Expensive, but looks to be quite reliable, and there's no need to make modifications to the case.

No it's machined aluminum, as it should be. If you want to use magnets you can epoxy or glue a thin sheet of steel to the bottom. If you want a tripod mount it's easy enough to tap and thread just the way you want.

I'm warming up to this, thinking of three again, update on the cabling?

I'm new here but would be willing to buy this if I could get it for $300 or less (preferably CAD, but I guess USD is close enough) including tax and shipping. I can probably assemble it myself but I wouldn't want to buy anything else, so I would expect the $300 to include switches, caps, etc.

As for soldering, I don't have an iron myself right now, but will probably want to buy one eventually... depending on when this keyboard is ready I might be able to help with that.

BTW, now that I think of this, it would be nice if the bottom could have some notches (or something) to allow the keyboard to be tented/angled, like the Freestyle Ascent. Obviously the design is up to you but just my $0.02 on what would add flexibility :)

One question left to me: In many ergonomic guides a negative slope of the keyboard is propose to minimize wrist bending. Negative slope--meaning that the keyboard angles downward so that the side closest to your body is higher than the side away from your body. The side picture in the first post shows a positive slope.

In many ergonomic guides a negative slope of the keyboard is propose to minimize wrist bending. Negative slope--meaning that the keyboard angles downward so that the side closest to your body is higher than the side away from your body. The side picture in the first post shows a positive slope.

I agree, the keyboard should lay flat and have a low height as possible, and it would be up to the user to attach legs/supports and raise/tilt it any way they wish.

Hey dox, can you tell me the measurement of the staggering ? ie: how much farther "north" is the W row is than the Q row, E row, etc

I can't speak for Dox, but I imagine it'd be like other matrix boards: where the spacing left/right is the same as up/down. If this is the case, then it'd be 0.75 inches between keys, and would work with any 1x cherry mx compatible keycap (see, if it's less than that, the keycaps would hit eachother, and if it's more, you'd have to move your fingers a lot more)

He doesn't mean the space between keys in adjacent rows or within a given column, he means how it isn't a perfect grid and each column has a different y-offset to fit a hand, i.e. middle finger longer. :)

Ah good to know about the diodes. Here, an amazon seller sells them for 1 cent each, so you can get 100 for $1 + $4.49 shipping = $5.49http://www.amazon.com/Parts-Express-1N4148-Logic-Diode/dp/B0002KRC7C

Ah good to know about the diodes. Here, an amazon seller sells them for 1 cent each, so you can get 100 for $1 + $4.49 shipping = $5.49http://www.amazon.com/Parts-Express-1N4148-Logic-Diode/dp/B0002KRC7C

It seems that the forum has rolled back a bit and my interest post was lost. I am still interested. Is there any way for people with interest to contribute in any way?

I have you and Salash down on the list. I'll update the second post. good thing I keep a backup on my laptop :p

I dunno: I'm keeping track of interest, to help out with that detail. I know we're still looking for a decent connector between the halves (the bulky 3m Ribbon cable one I found looks good, but I'm thinking ribbon cables aren't ideal. HDMI has been suggested, but I really hate appropriating it to this use (It's "wrong", surface mount, dubious strain relief available, etc)), and other ideas have been proposed) If someone wants to browse mouser/digikey for better exterior connectors that are low profile enough to work, that'd help. Also, I think scouting around for a shop that'll be able to cut the casings would be useful. Hmm, maybe we should publish a "roadmap" of all the work that's been done (design, etc) and that needs to be done (PCB, fab, etc), and people can search, and propose ideas.

That said, The order would be like 100+ sets of those 11 or so "plates" that screw together, which I think is a fairly substantial order.

I know we're still looking for a decent connector between the halves (the bulky 3m Ribbon cable one I found looks good, but I'm thinking ribbon cables aren't ideal. HDMI has been suggested, but I really hate appropriating it to this use (It's "wrong", surface mount, dubious strain relief available, etc)), and other ideas have been proposed)

You could make each half a stand-alone keyboard. One half could also contain a USB hub for linking up the pair, so you only need one USB cable going to the host (PC, etc.)

You could make each half a stand-alone keyboard. One half could also contain a USB hub for linking up the pair, so you only need one USB cable going to the host (PC, etc.)

The possibility of digital communication has been discussed. I think it's the best idea if anyone can find/write an implementation for it (Which is the hard part: that level of complexity adds a lot). USB would be a waste in this instance (It's not really means for inter-chip communications) maybe I2s would be better.

If you're going with a dual controller design you might be able to cram PS/2 conversion into both halves and use PS/2 between the halves and then USB to the PC. Halving conversion in both halves means being able to run the interconnect in either direction and USB from either side. Might need a dip switch or some other method to tell each side its role.

Also, as far as the connector we should pick something that is easily available and doesn't cause a hassle to be replaced. Couldn't a nice braided USB cable suffice?

A USB cable only provides 4 contacts, we need something like 14-20. Now, this would work out well if we had some chip on the "slave" 'board convert the keypress to something digital, but the current idea is to just transfer the matrix over the cable.

Edit: If anyone wants to implement this idea, I think a digital connection between boards is the best idea, but implementing it would be hard.

My vote still goes for HDMI, due to enough conductors, small size, and very cheap & easy to find cables of varying lengths.

My only concern about HDMI is the flexibility of the cable. I purchased one of the thinner ones from monoprice and they still feel as if they would be too stiff to use as a connector. I have had many hdmi ports on various devices wear out due to stiff cables putting too much strain on them.

I'm concerned about the surface mount (much less mechanically sound compared with through-hole) and the apparent lack of decent panel mount options for them. Not to mention the fact that it's the wrong protocol for the cable. We'd also (theoretically speaking ) owe the HDMI company money for each port on our device.

You'd only owe them a licensing fee if you implemented HDMI on the port. I'm wondering if some sadist wants to try implementing 1 half with shift registers and using serial over a small cable using RJ45s or the like.

I'm concerned about the surface mount (much less mechanically sound compared with through-hole) and the apparent lack of decent panel mount options for them.

FWIW, a TH and panel mount connector is available here (http://search.digikey.com/us/en/products/1746679-1/A35075-ND/1246897). The panel mount part of it is definitely too high, though.

Quote from: alaricljs;510938

You'd only owe them a licensing fee if you implemented HDMI on the port. I'm wondering if some sadist wants to try implementing 1 half with shift registers and using serial over a small cable using RJ45s or the like.

SPI (4 wires) or I2C (2 wires) would only need an RJ11, but I think that even RJ11 is too high to fit. And yeah, implementing that type of protocol would be quite a substantial amount of work :(

SPI (4 wires) or I2C (2 wires) would only need an RJ11, but I think that even RJ11 is too high to fit. And yeah, implementing that type of protocol would be quite a substantial amount of work :(

SPI is pretty much trivial if you are using something like a USB AVR (e.g. Teensy) as the main controller. An I/O expander like a 23S17 (http://search.digikey.com/us/en/products/MCP23S17-E%2FSP/MCP23S17-E%2FSP-ND/894276) would do everything the slave side needs.

Heh, how about VHDCI (http://www.molex.com/molex/products/datasheet.jsp?part=active/0714300008_IO_CONNECTORS.xml&channel=Products&Lang=en-US)? Complete overkill in terms of pins, rather expensive, but readily available and low profile.

Or TDP Triad (http://www.molex.com/molex/products/family?key=tdp_triad_differential_pair&channel=products&chanName=family&pageTitle=Introduction). Header (http://www.mouser.com/ProductDetail/Molex/74960-3018/?qs=sGAEpiMZZMvd2mIcYG7oaNDysQv32n8A3cY5Nb0GQvs%3d) + Cable (http://www.mouser.com/ProductDetail/Molex/74576-0001/?qs=QA2a3%252blgRt%252bCtR0ltQmc8Q%3d%3d). The downside is that the header is SMD.

Or use an I˛C I/O expander (e.g. 23017 (http://search.digikey.com/us/en/products/MCP23017-E%2FSP/MCP23017-E%2FSP-ND/894272)) to get down to 4 conductors, and use 2.5mm audio (http://search.digikey.com/ca/en/products/SJ1-42515TS/CP1-42515TS-ND/659902) connectors. Cheap, compact, and through-hole.

Or use an I˛C I/O expander (e.g. 23017 (http://search.digikey.com/us/en/products/MCP23017-E%2FSP/MCP23017-E%2FSP-ND/894272)) to get down to 4 conductors, and use 2.5mm audio (http://search.digikey.com/ca/en/products/SJ1-42515TS/CP1-42515TS-ND/659902) connectors. Cheap, compact, and through-hole.

I just saw the KeyPoard (http://geekhack.org/showwiki.php?title=Island:26845) which looks really awesome, complete with phantom cut-outs on the switch mounting holes so that mounted switches can be opened up for servicing. I think we should add those cut-outs to ErgoDox as well.

@dorkvader/dox: If the price can stay below $400 for *everything* (except assembly), I'm definitely interested. If it can stay below $300, I'd like one. If below $150-200, I think I might want two.. lol, or at least an extra case+PCB. Assuming it can get done in the next few months so I can get it together and get used to it before school, and of course that no future design decisions make it not work for me (which I don't expect to be the case). Created an account just so I could track this thread :) .

A few of the things that matter to me:- The thumbs having a good amount of keys within easy reach (as in the current kinesis looking thumb group)- The cord between the two being cheap, easy to get, and *small* (as is being discussed). I've never tried, but it seems to me that anything thicker / less flexible than a typical usb cord would be a pain when the two halves of the keyboard were close together on a desk. And aesthetically, a ribbon cable connector or even an ethernet connector (or a pair of them), would ruin it IMO. 2x2.5mm audio connectors (like kps suggested) would be pretty cool, if there's nothing better in a single similarly sized and shaped cable.

A few of the things that don't matter to me:- Assembly service. If it's going to be done by another member, and/or going to cost more than maybe $20, I may as well take the opportunity to learn :)- Layout. I'm planning to change it all anyway.- Whether the parts all come in the same box, or whether we have to get them from different places. As long as they're not way too hard to find/buy, and the total price can stay below my above limits.

Random preferences (if they make a difference here):- I'm leaning towards cherry browns, after a bunch of reading. I haven't found a place to try them, but they sound like what I want.- Colored or clear keycaps. I know these would be extra... but if they turn out not to be too much more, it'd be really cool.- O-rings (the soft ones), probably. I assume these would be extra too.- For layout, I'll probably do something close to arensito, at least with the AltGr symbol layer.

Other thoughts:- I'd prefer it not to be red. Lol, though I guess I'd live if it were.- Once it gets closer to being done, if I'm not the only one here who's a noob at all things hardware, maybe someone could post links to save us searching around for all the parts we'll have to get ourselves, how to put it together (or at least common pitfalls), how to reprogram/reflash the firmware for remapping (and other things?), and all that? I understand it's DIY so I shan't complain, but it'd save me a bit of tangential effort.

@dorkvader/dox: If the price can stay below $400 for *everything* (except assembly), I'm definitely interested. If it can stay below $300, I'd like one. If below $150-200, I think I might want two.. lol, or at least an extra case+PCB. Assuming it can get done in the next few months so I can get it together and get used to it before school, and of course that no future design decisions make it not work for me (which I don't expect to be the case). Created an account just so I could track this thread :) .

A few of the things that matter to me:- The thumbs having a good amount of keys within easy reach (as in the current kinesis looking thumb group)- The cord between the two being cheap, easy to get, and *small* (as is being discussed). I've never tried, but it seems to me that anything thicker / less flexible than a typical usb cord would be a pain when the two halves of the keyboard were close together on a desk. And aesthetically, a ribbon cable connector or even an ethernet connector (or a pair of them), would ruin it IMO. 2x2.5mm audio connectors (like kps suggested) would be pretty cool, if there's nothing better in a single similarly sized and shaped cable.

A few of the things that don't matter to me:- Assembly service. If it's going to be done by another member, and/or going to cost more than maybe $20, I may as well take the opportunity to learn :)- Layout. I'm planning to change it all anyway.- Whether the parts all come in the same box, or whether we have to get them from different places. As long as they're not way too hard to find/buy, and the total price can stay below my above limits.

Random preferences (if they make a difference here):- I'm leaning towards cherry browns, after a bunch of reading. I haven't found a place to try them, but they sound like what I want.- Colored or clear keycaps. I know these would be extra... but if they turn out not to be too much more, it'd be really cool.- O-rings (the soft ones), probably. I assume these would be extra too.- For layout, I'll probably do something close to arensito, at least with the AltGr symbol layer.

Other thoughts:- I'd prefer it not to be red. Lol, though I guess I'd live if it were.- Once it gets closer to being done, if I'm not the only one here who's a noob at all things hardware, maybe someone could post links to save us searching around for all the parts we'll have to get ourselves, how to put it together (or at least common pitfalls), how to reprogram/reflash the firmware for remapping (and other things?), and all that? I understand it's DIY so I shan't complain, but it'd save me a bit of tangential effort.

Wow, welcome to Geekhack, that's a heck of a first post: Lots of good info here.

Firstly, I don't want to take any credit away from Dox. He's the designer. I'm just keeping track of interest, and answering easy questions.

Good point on the cable. Also note that very frequently, thinner cables will be able to suffer more bends before breaking: They have a longer service life in that respect, but are more fragile to tensile strain. I've seem some unwieldy USB cables before: One has full shielding with an aluminium wrap (I think it's from a LaCiE HDD)! Having TRRS connectors to carry power, Transmit signal, received signals, and ground would work, but at that point, we could totally use the ubiquitous USB connector. The hardest part is implementing a matrix to I2C or something, then having it decoded by a master teensy. Also note that it wolud have to be pretty high speed, or we wouldn't get NKRO on the slave half due to bandwidth limitations. At this point, the design of the cables also plays a large part, as crosstalk, and inductance degrade the highspeed signal. We would almost be better off at that point to go with a SMA connector (like for routers) or suchlike.

Hah, good point on the layout. One of the best features is the programmability of this: you can't just pick an arbitrary layout on just any keyboard, but with the Dox (or anything Teensy) you can.

Parts: I imagine there'll be a good BOM made up, where We'll distribute the plate/case and PCB, then have a link to where you can buy the rest. You could conceivably have it ordered in a few minutes, Still, if we're distributing the plates/case already, it might be a better idea to distribute the other components at the same time, for possible savings in bulk.

Keycaps: I never imagined keycaps to come with the base kit. Many GH'ers have extra sets, and they're pretty easy to get (WASDkeyboards, anyone?) elsewhere. I also really want clear keycaps to go over my cherry greens in the mail.

As far as colour, we might be able to work something out with the Machine shop to get it anodized different colours. Ofcourse it would be pretty easy to paint it yourself.

Finally: You should look at the phantom guide on the DT WIKI. This is almost the same project (only with the different physical aspect, integrated case, and possible complication of cables/connectors) and there's a lot of good info there. I imagine when it comes time, We'll update it with some ergoDOX specifics. I've always wanted to write up a proper manual in LaTeX for download/distribution.http://deskthority.net/wiki/Phantom_Instruction

Anyway, I hope this helps. As always, it's up to DOX right now (as designer and de facto lead) but good ideas are always appreciated. It's good to get the problems sorted out before production.

Parts: I imagine there'll be a good BOM made up, where We'll distribute the plate/case and PCB, then have a link to where you can buy the rest. You could conceivably have it ordered in a few minutes, Still, if we're distributing the plates/case already, it might be a better idea to distribute the other components at the same time, for possible savings in bulk.

Sounds good to me. Seems like this isn't the first time you guys have done this :)

Quote from: dorkvader;522656

Keycaps: I never imagined keycaps to come with the base kit. Many GH'ers have extra sets, and they're pretty easy to get (WASDkeyboards, anyone?) elsewhere. I also really want clear keycaps to go over my cherry greens in the mail.

Okay. I do have to include keycaps in my price limit though, since I don't have any yet.. :/ . I did look around on WASD yesterday. I'll have to shop around some more later.

Quote from: dorkvader;522656

As far as colour, we might be able to work something out with the Machine shop to get it anodized different colours. Ofcourse it would be pretty easy to paint it yourself.

It would be awesome if the machine shop could do different colors, or just natural colored (like thirdkind wants). I looked up how to paint over anodized aluminum today, and it doesn't look fun (to me). But again, it won't kill my interest, even though it's aesthetically important to me.

Quote from: dorkvader;522656

Finally: You should look at the phantom guide on the DT WIKI. This is almost the same project (only with the different physical aspect, integrated case, and possible complication of cables/connectors) and there's a lot of good info there. I imagine when it comes time, We'll update it with some ergoDOX specifics. I've always wanted to write up a proper manual in LaTeX for download/distribution.http://deskthority.net/wiki/Phantom_Instruction

Thanks! I've only glanced at it for now, but I'll read it more thoroughly when the ergoDOX gets closer to shipping.

Would still need a willing sap^H^H^H volunteer to create some sample code, and breadboard test it with a small matrix, I suppose.

@parak/kps: You guys make it sound so hard. The Teensy library documentation[1] makes it sound easy. Which makes me feel naive, lol. What am I missing? The only problem (if it is one) that I can see is that this might only give us 6KRO without a lot of work.

( Some relevant stuff i found, just to put it here. Sorry if everyone already knows:- NKRO is possible with USB, but not common: geekhack.org/showwiki.php?title=USB+versus+PS+2#Full+NKRO- Phantom firmware. I thought it was NKRO, but the post says it's 6KRO, so I'd have to read/learn more to figure it out: geekhack.org/showwiki.php?title=Island:26742)

[1] pjrc.com/teensy/td_keyboard.html (with something to handle I˛C) in C, or pjrc.com/teensy/td_keyboard.html and pjrc.com/teensy/td_libs_Wire.html in what looks like C++

((sorry for the links, i can't post real ones yet))

EDIT:Don't mean to clog the thread with dev stuff. Please let me know if there's another place I should put it.

I wish the ErgoDox will be 6KRO for maximum compatibility with any computer / OS. When I see NKRO over USB I run, run away from it; to me it's a useless feature and so I prefer the USB standard to avoid any possibility of issues with the various OSs I use. I lived with 2KRO just fine for years, and 6KRO is even better, and six plus modifiers is really more simultaneous keys than I will ever need.

I wish the ErgoDox will be 6KRO for maximum compatibility with any computer / OS. When I see NKRO over USB I run, run away from it; to me it's a useless feature and so I prefer the USB standard to avoid any possibility of issues with the various OSs I use. I lived with 2KRO just fine for years, and 6KRO is even better, and six plus modifiers is really more simultaneous keys than I will ever need.

The interesting part about this is that the teensy NKRO I've seen is using USB standards and doing quite well at compatibility. It's the mass-market usb-NKRO controllers that are introducing problems because of their poor implementation choices.

@parak/kps: You guys make it sound so hard. The Teensy library documentation[1] makes it sound easy. Which makes me feel naive, lol. What am I missing? The only problem (if it is one) that I can see is that this might only give us 6KRO without a lot of work.

( Some relevant stuff i found, just to put it here. Sorry if everyone already knows:- NKRO is possible with USB, but not common: geekhack.org/showwiki.php?title=USB+versus+PS+2#Full+NKRO- Phantom firmware. I thought it was NKRO, but the post says it's 6KRO, so I'd have to read/learn more to figure it out: geekhack.org/showwiki.php?title=Island:26742)

[1] pjrc.com/teensy/td_keyboard.html (with something to handle I˛C) in C, or pjrc.com/teensy/td_keyboard.html and pjrc.com/teensy/td_libs_Wire.html in what looks like C++

((sorry for the links, i can't post real ones yet))

EDIT:Don't mean to clog the thread with dev stuff. Please let me know if there's another place I should put it.

I'd say that any development ideas you have are okay is this thread. I certainly find them more interesting than checked interest :P

So there already exists I2C for Teensy? I should have known. Looks like almost everything's been done on ATmega.

About #KRO: The Teensy supports NKRO logically, so it can recognize all the keystrokes, and keep them separate. As far as I know, the reason USB is usually 6KRO is due to bandwidth limitations, and it functioning on USB 1.1 for legacy (BIOS) purposes. There exists an implementation of NKRO over USB on the Teensy (see soarer), but I'm not 100% sure how it works out with the necessary bandwidth. My assumption has always been that it detects something from the computer and is only 6KRO (and slower) when it needs to be, then changes back to NKRO once it's into a full-OS, but I really have no idea.

See, I'm no EE, so I'm relatively new to this embedded system stuff. Also, I don't have a TEENSY, so I can't hardly breadboard an I2C solution.---

Should I come up with a "roadmap" of stuff that needs to get done? I figure, if I do that, then people can tackle each bit, and we'd get more done faster. Like we could get the CAD files, and some people can talk to local machine shops. We can get someone working on implementing i2c as communication between the halves. We can get someone looking for solutions for the connector problem (either an easy cable for I2C or a larger one for passing the matrix) etc. Then we can have a list of design decisions to be made (fer example, number and placement of thumb keys, etc.)

Should I come up with a "roadmap" of stuff that needs to get done? I figure, if I do that, then people can tackle each bit, and we'd get more done faster. Like we could get the CAD files, and some people can talk to local machine shops. We can get someone working on implementing i2c as communication between the halves. We can get someone looking for solutions for the connector problem (either an easy cable for I2C or a larger one for passing the matrix) etc. Then we can have a list of design decisions to be made (fer example, number and placement of thumb keys, etc.)

I think a roadmap, especially if it included a collection of relevant files, would be great :) .

And since I've been thinking about it so much for the last few days, maybe I should just go ahead and volunteer to write and breadboard test the firmware (including i2c). I'm hoping two things though: 1) that if anybody more experienced than me wants to do it, somebody lets me know before I buy the chips, lol, and 2) that nobody minds if it's 6KRO for the moment, and written in C++ in the teensyduino environment. If that works out all right, I'll go from there. Also, I'm a comp. sci. undergrad, and I've never messed with firmware before, so I'm sure I'll need help with parts of it before I'm done (or at least a code review). If some of my basic assumptions turn out to be wrong (e.g. the teensyduino Keyboard or Wire libraries end up not working for us) I'll likely need a *lot* of help.

If I do give it a shot, which Teensy and which I2C IO expander should I use?

EDIT:There's a C implementation of TWI under the LGPL in the Arduino libraries (https://github.com/arduino/Arduino/tree/master/libraries/Wire/utility). I still wouldn't mind trying it out, but if someone who knows what they're doing wants to just use this and the Teensy USB: keyboard (http://pjrc.com/teensy/usb_keyboard.zip) (and maybe the Phantom firmware (http://geekhack.org/attachment.php?attachmentid=38982&d=1327895092)) code to put something together, that might be quicker.

If I do give it a shot, which Teensy and which I2C IO expander should I use?

As kps mentioned earlier (http://geekhack.org/showthread.php?22780-Interest-Check-Custom-split-ergo-keyboard&p=511086&viewfull=1#post511086), MCP23017 or MCP23018 should work here. I'm not at all sure what the difference between them is, even after looking at the datasheets, but 16 (outdated)/17/18 seem to have plenty of code samples floating around. Make sure to get the ones ending in SP, which indicates a DIP package.

A regular teensy will be plenty due to the port expander being used. You can get the one with pins presoldered, too.

I do wonder about the 2.5mm jack though. The datasheet (http://products.cui.com/getPDF.aspx?fileID=7757) has a couple of types, both switched and unswitched. The consideration here is to make sure that insertion and removal of a plug while the teensy is on and providing voltage won't damage the I2C extender, though I'm probably overthinking it and the nonswitched one (CP1-42514-ND) will be fine.

I do wonder about the 2.5mm jack though. The datasheet (http://products.cui.com/getPDF.aspx?fileID=7757) has a couple of types, both switched and unswitched. The consideration here is to make sure that insertion and removal of a plug while the teensy is on and providing voltage won't damage the I2C extender, though I'm probably overthinking it and the nonswitched one (CP1-42514-ND) will be fine.

Yeah, I'm not sure about that either, though I'm just a programmer with a screwdriver. Personally I would use a mini-DIN connector (with at least 5 pins, and SPI rather than I˛C), but connector size seems to be a major concern here.

I like the layout and would definitely would pay $50 for a PCB. The case isn't worth hundreds of dollars to me. I would rather just glue it down to a piece of plywood and save the money for the substantial amount that switches and keycaps will cost. Is the plate necessary or will the PC hold the switches securely?

Tangential question, what do you-all think of splay (columns not parallel but farther apart at the top than the bottom)? I think it is why I find the Microsoft Natural 4000 more comfortable than a GoldTouch but I'm not 100% sure.

Having tried a Datadesk smartboard as well as a Kinesis Advantage (I also own a Goldtouch and a Microsoft natural0 I am firmly against any splay. Columns should be completely parallel and keys should be close together to minimize unnecessary hand/finger movement.

Having tried a Datadesk smartboard as well as a Kinesis Advantage (I also own a Goldtouch and a Microsoft natural0 I am firmly against any splay. Columns should be completely parallel and keys should be close together to minimize unnecessary hand/finger movement.

Trust the sordna!

I need something to blow my money on, let's get this show on the road.

I like the layout and would definitely would pay $50 for a PCB. The case isn't worth hundreds of dollars to me. I would rather just glue it down to a piece of plywood and save the money for the substantial amount that switches and keycaps will cost. Is the plate necessary or will the PC hold the switches securely?

I'll put you down for PCB interest. It seems you're going key64-style on the case? Not a bad decision. You can even DIY it in acrylic relatively cheaply, and easily enough to be worthwhile.

Lucky for me, I will have enough switches to populate this, and with my purchasing habits, I don't really expect keycaps to be an issue.

---As far as the plate/PCB, I think if we add plate-mount holes to the PCB, phantom-style, then you could go with either. IT makes he PCB more complicated, but is well worth it. Also, with the case design, we can have some extra plate-mounts made up for he people who will DIY their own cases. I wouldn't expect them to be too expensive, especially in the quantity we're after (And they are symmetric).

HI guys, I've been very busy with work during the last few weeks but things are slowing down a bit so I'll have more time to work on this.If someone want to experiment with I2C or SPI go ahead because I will not. If someone can develop something functional with 1 controller, I will implement it to the PCB design.

I have reworked the columns staggering as per sordna recommendation. Tell me what you guys think.[ATTACH=CONFIG]42238[/ATTACH]

I ordered a Teensy 2.0 and some I2C chips the other day (along with some SPI ones just in case), so hopefully they'll come soon and I can make an attempt at the firmware. I'm going to shoot for using the MCP23018 for now, which would allow us to use one 4-conductor 2.5mm jack (Vcc, GND, SCL, SDA), or two 2-conductor ones. I'll let you guys know when I make some progress.

The CUI 4 pin connectors have a difference of 1mm in height, 4mm for 2.5 vs 5mm for 3.5. As long as the 5mm one fits, then yeah, it'd be better as far as availability of cables goes. This doesn't matter for prototyping purposes though, except where it comes time to test live insertion/removal of the connector.

@dorkvader: Sorry if that came out wrong - I don't have a real preference for 2.5mm vs 3.5mm, I just kind of picked one to mention in the post, lol. Actually, now that I look at them again, I might prefer 3.5mm (for durability, if there's room for it), but I'm not really worried either way.

I've been impressed with the quality of prints I've seen from shapeways lately so I'm considering getting the case 3D printed in plastic instead of machined/cut aluminium. I don't like the sharp edges and thicker border and screws of the layered aluminium plate design. Current volume for the case is 100.69cm^3 per hand so it would cost around 280$ for both hands in their white, strong & flexible material (like the humblehacker (http://geekhack.org/showwiki.php?title=Island:6292)). The case could also be ordered in different colors offered by shapeways (black, red, grey, indigo) or dyed/painted afterward.

Are those cutouts for costar stabilizers! I like it :-) Btw you may want to get some stabilizers from wasdkeyboards to determine the exact dimensions & placement:http://www.wasdkeyboards.com/index.php/products/keyboard-parts-1/cherry-mx-plate-mounted-stabilizer-clips-2pcs.html

Hey don't forget to "butterfly" the switch cutouts, a-la phantom.

Check this post from the KeyPoard thread, with dimensions:http://geekhack.org/showwiki.php?title=Island:26845&p=530064&viewfull=1#post530064

$280 for just the plastic case? That does seem to be a bit much. In general, I think people are willing to pay premium for metal cases that have been popping up recently because they represent something very different from the norm where most keyboards are made out of plastic.

Have you done/considered shopping around for CNC aluminum/steel pricing? Sharp edges would not be a problem there. If it's possible to make the switch plate mirror-able, then it would save some money as well.

Metal case please. :D The $400ish price tag isn't an issue as far as I'm concerned, but only if it takes at least another 2 months or so. Dorkvader, could you put me on your interest list? I'll be in for one if it's not much more expensive than $400.

Metal case please. :D The $400ish price tag isn't an issue as far as I'm concerned, but only if it takes at least another 2 months or so. Dorkvader, could you put me on your interest list? I'll be in for one if it's not much more expensive than $400.

I'll add you both to the file and update later.

Yeah, I'm willing to pay for a metal case, but I think $280 for plastic is just too much.

I still like the shape but 280 is a bit much for plastic and one of my main interests here was getting the natural aluminum. Maybe we can find a newer machine shop with less of a steady business who would make it for cheaper.

To relay to the rest of the interested people in this thread: the machine shop I know can't do it without stopping production on their business and even then it would still be really expensive.

I seem to be the first going this way (unless I've missed a post) but I don't care regarding metal vs. plastic. I'm in it for the split ergo layout with mechanical switches! Go for whatever's cheapest!

I would be interested in make a purchase depending on final price/material. I'ld also be interented in helping out with the Firmware development and hardware selection. Can anyone point me to the individual "In Charge" of this.

I would be interested in make a purchase depending on final price/material. I'ld also be interented in helping out with the Firmware development and hardware selection. Can anyone point me to the individual "In Charge" of this.

I would be interested in make a purchase depending on final price/material. I'ld also be interented in helping out with the Firmware development and hardware selection. Can anyone point me to the individual "In Charge" of this.

First, welcome to geekhack (haha, even though I'm new here myself).

Yup, Dox has the final say on everything, it's his project. To some extent, hardware suggestions have been discussed in the thread.

For firmware, it's kind of me at the moment, since nobody else wanted to try writing one that used I2C to get the connector between the two halves down to 4 wires. (Firmwares without that capability have already been written for other projects.) That being said, I'm totally new to teensy development and figuring stuff out as I go, so I'm not really in a position to work with anyone... but you're quite free to write your own if you want. If you do and it'd help, I'd be happy to open my forthcoming github account early and start posting my progress so we can share ideas.

I think it'd be awesome if we got some collaboration going on this project.

After thinking about it, I think metal is the way to go, and steel may well be better than aluminium. I'm thinking that the heavier metal will have a larger normal force on the desk, and therefore more friction and less slipping. Also, I really like items with heft!

I'm thinking either a clearcoated or stainless steel, or matte black/red would look the best, but that's all small stuff compared with firmware, etc.

If Y'all want to point me in the direction of some good firmware on teensy/atmel hardware, I'd be interested in looking at your development. I've got no experievce, so it's dubious as to how much I could help out.

How deep are the cases? If cabling is an issue could you use RJ45 cables on the bottom of the units and plug the cables in facing down? Two RJ45 flat cables are very flexible, flat, and are pretty small when laid on top of each other.

I think it'd be awesome if we got some collaboration going on this project.

After thinking about it, I think metal is the way to go, and steel may well be better than aluminium. I'm thinking that the heavier metal will have a larger normal force on the desk, and therefore more friction and less slipping. Also, I really like items with heft!

I'm thinking either a clearcoated or stainless steel, or matte black/red would look the best, but that's all small stuff compared with firmware, etc.

I agree, but I've got a stupid limit of 1.4kg on my keyboard tray at work. I'm sure I could manage 2kg, but that really would be it.

The biggest surprise anyone gets with a maltron is it's very low weight. A lot of people associate low weight with cheapness - which I think is kind of normal behaviour, but it clashes with the price of titanium and carbon fibre... A good solid heft to the ergodox would be welcome.

I think it'd be awesome if we got some collaboration going on this project.After thinking about it, I think metal is the way to go, and steel may well be better than aluminium. I'm thinking that the heavier metal will have a larger normal force on the desk, and therefore more friction and less slipping. Also, I really like items with heft!

I think it'd be awesome if we got some collaboration going on this project.

After thinking about it, I think metal is the way to go, and steel may well be better than aluminium. I'm thinking that the heavier metal will have a larger normal force on the desk, and therefore more friction and less slipping. Also, I really like items with heft!

I'm thinking either a clearcoated or stainless steel, or matte black/red would look the best, but that's all small stuff compared with firmware, etc.

If Y'all want to point me in the direction of some good firmware on teensy/atmel hardware, I'd be interested in looking at your development. I've got no experievce, so it's dubious as to how much I could help out.

I'd take a variation on that and get it done in aluminum and an optional brass plate insert for those that want extra weight, that way it would still be metal and people who have weight restrictions imposed by their keyboard trays can still use it.

What about galvanic corrosion? I suppose we could solve that with some thin plastic "plate" spacing it out.

Bytheway, Dox says the volume is 100.69 cm^3/hand. If that's the case (haha), and we go with steel (7.6 g/cm^3) then the weight of the case is "only" 1.58 kg. So even with steel, we'd likely be able to get it under 2Kg, depending on the weight of the switches, PCB, etc. (an AL case is ~543 grams)

Maybe sandwiched acrylic ala litster? Just throwing another option out there as I don't care that much about the case material relatively speaking, as long as it's reasonably priced and isn't plain plastic.

I would recommend to stay with aluminum. Price/kg is about $5 and then ofc comes cutting and machining.I might be able to help with machining for free in return of one of these. But giving no guarantees.

I would recommend to stay with aluminum. Price/kg is about $5 and then ofc comes cutting and machining.I might be able to help with machining for free in return of one of these. But giving no guarantees.

Yes please! :DI was hoping you'd see this project and take interest in it.

Yes please! :DI was hoping you'd see this project and take interest in it.

I would be happy to provide any help with this. But again I will not guarantee anything. This all weighs on me having time to do the programming and getting approval from my school. And both are far from certain.

Bah! Because the keyboard is flat, the case/plate does not need to be fancy. If you use PCB-mounted switches then the case would not have to be more complex than a box, basically. You don't even need stabilizers for the thumb keys -- the Kinesis does not have any and people never complain about that.

You could also design the case so that only the top needs to be a remotely complex shape. Integrate the plate (if you really think that it is necessary) into that and bolt the PCB to it. Then the bottom could be a simple flat piece of sheet metal or plastic which you bolt on with the help of nylon spacers.

I would be happy to provide any help with this. But again I will not guarantee anything. This all weighs on me having time to do the programming and getting approval from my school. And both are far from certain.

Also shipping from Sweden is expensive as hell.

I live in Europe, shipping shouldn't be incredibly expensive to me. :PAnd if you can make it cheaper than Dox can please (with cherry on top) get permission from your school! :DI'll see if I can figure out a way to make time slow down so you have time to do the programming :P

I have no preference for either a metal or a plastic case, but I think there should only be one case option to cut down on costs. If the chosen material doesn't meet everyone's needs, there's always the option of just grabbing the PCB and making a custom case out of stone, wood, sheep, or whatever material suits your fancy.

Maybe I'm alone in this but from a scientific point of view a PCB mounted prototype without any case sounds entirely reasonable. Dox, would you mind sharing the layout? Maybe I can make a prototype at work. Don't worry I would still buy one. ;)

That is a bit of a YMMV. For example, all of my switch donor boards are PCB mounted POS boards, so it's far easier and cheaper for me to come up with PCB mount switches than plate mount. Note that both can be plate mounted, it'd just be up to the PCB board designer if they can account for the extra holes. Of course, the extra legs on PCB mount switches can be cut off, but that's not really an option for me as I need them to be reusable for my own projects :)

That is a bit of a YMMV. For example, all of my switch donor boards are PCB mounted POS boards, so it's far easier and cheaper for me to come up with PCB mount switches than plate mount. Note that both can be plate mounted, it'd just be up to the PCB board designer if they can account for the extra holes. Of course, the extra legs on PCB mount switches can be cut off, but that's not really an option for me as I need them to be reusable for my own projects :)

It's a little harder to find brand new pcb mx blues from donor boards, and a little less hard for browns. Not to mention, I'm not even sure they have pcb reds.

There is no big difference between PCB and plate mounted switches. The only thig is that there are two extra plastic pins to orient the PCB mounted switches better. This means that it is completely possible to use plate mounted switches instead where there is supposed to be PCB mounted ones. It only takes some more care to make sure the switches are soldered in straight.

To use PCB mount switches on a PCB that is not designed with the two extra alignment holes the extra plastic pins needs to be cut off. If there is room on the PCB it can be a good idea to include the extra alignment holes even if the PCB is intended to be used for plate mounting, since this makes it possible to use either plate or PCB mounted switches.

I was wondering, why connect both halves together and only one hand to USB. Wouldn't it be more flexible to give both halves their own processor and USB cable? That way you could even decide to use only one half for single-handed typing. You could even incorporate a USB hub in the back, so you can daisy-chain the keyboard and plug in your mouse as well.

There is no big difference between PCB and plate mounted switches. The only thig is that there are two extra plastic pins to orient the PCB mounted switches better. This means that it is completely possible to use plate mounted switches instead where there is supposed to be PCB mounted ones. It only takes some more care to make sure the switches are soldered in straight.

The plastic pins are not intended to help installation/soldering, their main benefit is stability/sturdiness. A regular MX switch with only 2 thin terminals to hold it, especially considering they are offset to one side of the switch, cannot withstand pulling keycaps. I've tried both types of switches in my kinesis mod (http://geekhack.org/showwiki.php?title=Island:26579) and I know. A plate-mounted switch with diodes, has a better chance of surviving without pins, but a normal switch won't hold over time unless you never pull your keycaps.

I don't really think the switch modules were designed with keycap pulling in mind.. The pegs (I guess this is a less confusing word than pin in this case) could possibly contribute to mechanical stability under normal usage as well though. But I still think the main design goal is to make sure the switches are mounted straight. Using the specified diameter for the lead holes, there is quite enough rotational play to allow for messed up functionality.

I was wondering, why connect both halves together and only one hand to USB. Wouldn't it be more flexible to give both halves their own processor and USB cable? That way you could even decide to use only one half for single-handed typing.

This was discussed earlier in the thread, and is rather complicated to implement. For one, the two halves still need to connect to each other in some way because certain key functionality doesn't pass from one usb keyboard to another. In addition, there needs to be specific firmware logic that is then able to treat the two separate controllers and matrices as one in some way, considering the key map assignments in dual and standalone modes and such.

Quote from: geekabit;546635

You could even incorporate a USB hub in the back, so you can daisy-chain the keyboard and plug in your mouse as well.

Most likely there's no room for one, and if anything I'd think that it'd be a diy thing for individual people if they want to do that sort of thing. Maybe someday we'll have a free and open source controller/firmware implementation with all these things built in, but one can only dream [of enough free time to focus on something like that].

I don't really think the switch modules were designed with keycap pulling in mind.. The pegs (I guess this is a less confusing word than pin in this case) could possibly contribute to mechanical stability under normal usage as well though. But I still think the main design goal is to make sure the switches are mounted straight. Using the specified diameter for the lead holes, there is quite enough rotational play to allow for messed up functionality.

Anyway, the pcb should have the holes, and folks are free to use whatever switches they like. For plate mounted switches without a plate, I would recommend hotgluing them on the PCB before soldering. Personally I love switches with pegs AND diodes, they are solid strong!

This was discussed earlier in the thread, and is rather complicated to implement. For one, the two halves still need to connect to each other in some way because certain key functionality doesn't pass from one usb keyboard to another. In addition, there needs to be specific firmware logic that is then able to treat the two separate controllers and matrices as one in some way, considering the key map assignments in dual and standalone modes and such.

That depends on how the user wants to configure his keyboard. Not everyone needs a hardware layer.

I think that the firmware should be one firmware downloaded individually to each keyboard via USB. On boot, each keyboard should auto-detect whether it is left or right (by a pin on the PCB), where it get its power from USB (Master or Stand-alone) or link-cable (Slave) and act accordingly. Each keyboard should store its own keymap. A special key combo to enter a Remap (like Kinesis Remap key) could be executed on either keyboard. When in Slave mode, the keyboard should handle keymap remapping commands from the Master through the link cable. That would mean that if you want to remap the keyboards or use a hardware layer, then you need the link cable. If you remap the keyboards and then reconnect both through USB then they should remember the keymaps.

If you're willing to consider them truly separate keyboards when connecting them separately, it might be practical. But DOX specifically said he'd use at most 1 Teensy and 1 I/O expander.

On the plus side, if DOX changes his mind, treating the 2nd Teensy as an I/O expander until proper dual Teensy firmware could be written should be fairly trivial. Or if he doesn't, I suppose one could always buy another Teensy, put it inside an Altoids can with a few connectors (which I think looks really cool, lol), and use that as the right hand side to save desk space when they only want to use the left.

If you're willing to consider them truly separate keyboards when connecting them separately, it might be practical. But DOX specifically said he'd use at most 1 Teensy and 1 I/O expander.

This.

I got some HDMI connectors today to do some prototyping. Those pins tiny! 0.5mm pitch. Anyone know the best way to solder those with a standard soldering iron?[ATTACH=CONFIG]45211[/ATTACH][ATTACH=CONFIG]45212[/ATTACH]

I got some HDMI connectors today to do some prototyping. Those pins tiny! 0.5mm pitch. Anyone know the best way to solder those with a standard soldering iron? (Attachment) 45211[/ATTACH] (Attachment) 45212[/ATTACH]

A really fine tip with fine guage wire lol. I could do that with my 12 watt soldering iron, doubt you can do it with a radio shack iron.

I have done the right hand PCB layout. I'll add the option for PCB mounted switch as well as diodes inside the switch. (Attachment) 45248[/ATTACH]

How about you make the PCB accommodate cherry switches that include the diodes? (and for folks not using switches with diodes, they can still surface-solder diodes at the same soldering points. Shouldn't be hard to make the PCB take DW switches (with pins, with diodes).

I have done the right hand PCB layout. I'll add the option for PCB mounted switch as well as diodes inside the switch. (Attachment) 45248[/ATTACH]

How about you make the PCB accommodate cherry switches that include the diodes? (and for folks not using switches with diodes, they can still surface-solder diodes at the same soldering points. Shouldn't be hard to make the PCB take DW switches (with pins, with diodes).

I plan to get red switches from Kinesis btw, they only sell pcb-mounted switches with pins and diodes, here's a couple I got a while back (photo is from my wiki. (http://geekhack.org/showwiki.php?title=Island:26579)

Got I2C working the other day! And spring break's coming up, so I'm hoping (God willing) to have at the very least some beta quality firmware done by the end of next week. I'll post my documentation and code when I get it working. Sorry it's taken so long, but thanks for being patient :) .

G'damn these things are small. I ordered a bunch of 0402 components for using when reconstructing the Teensy directly on the main board. Time to do some practice I think, buying a finer tipped soldering iron, and finding someone willing to borrow me a stereo loupe perhaps...

Tin both pads, hold the 0402 down to the board with tweezers hit 1 pad with the soldering iron briefly. Check to see if the other pad got sufficiently heated to be properly soldered. Sometimes it happens. Then finish it out.

I've been interested in making something along these lines for a while, and I've done a quick mock up based on Dox's design. Mine will largely be sheetmetal based as that is the tools I have access to, so I'm looking at having the keys plate mounted and having the left and right keyboard mounted on a chair. As far as curvature goes that isn't really much of a problem for me as I can do that pretty easily, but I've been having trouble trying to determine the best direction for curvature and the dimensions.

Also what have you used to draw the model and where have you sourced the switch models?

Got I2C working the other day! And spring break's coming up, so I'm hoping (God willing) to have at the very least some beta quality firmware done by the end of next week. I'll post my documentation and code when I get it working. Sorry it's taken so long, but thanks for being patient :) .

Great! I'll wait for your documentation!

Quote from: PrinsValium;568588

G'damn these things are small. I ordered a bunch of 0402 components for using when reconstructing the Teensy directly on the main board. Time to do some practice I think, buying a finer tipped soldering iron, and finding someone willing to borrow me a stereo loupe perhaps...

Man, thee things are sooo tiny, you should have gone with some 0603 or 0805.

Quote from: QuinRiva;568863

I've been interested in making something along these lines for a while, and I've done a quick mock up based on Dox's design. Mine will largely be sheetmetal based as that is the tools I have access to, so I'm looking at having the keys plate mounted and having the left and right keyboard mounted on a chair. As far as curvature goes that isn't really much of a problem for me as I can do that pretty easily, but I've been having trouble trying to determine the best direction for curvature and the dimensions.

Also what have you used to draw the model and where have you sourced the switch models?

(Attachment) 47545[/ATTACH]

Interesting, are you going to use a curved PCB or just and wire it? I used SolidWorks for the model and I did the switch myself from the pictures and dimensions here (http://www.cherrycorp.com/english/switches/key/mx.htm).

Tin both pads, hold the 0402 down to the board with tweezers hit 1 pad with the soldering iron briefly. Check to see if the other pad got sufficiently heated to be properly soldered. Sometimes it happens. Then finish it out.

Yeah, the video pretty much shows how to do it, nothing new there either really. The thing is though, I could barely grab one of them with my "pointy" tip tweezers. Have to go needle tip with these suckers. I can probably fit ten or so of them on the tip of my soldering iron as well... Have to consider spacing on the layout as well to be able to get down to all solder pads.

Quote from: Dox;568947

Man, thee things are sooo tiny, you should have gone with some 0603 or 0805.

Tin both pads, hold the 0402 down to the board with tweezers hit 1 pad with the soldering iron briefly. Check to see if the other pad got sufficiently heated to be properly soldered. Sometimes it happens. Then finish it out.

Don't do that. If the tin on the other pad doesn't heat up properly the component will be raised above the pad. Tin one pad, place component and solder in place, then do the other pad.

I have a stereo microscope and some very fine tips. It helps but it doesn't make the shaking go away. ;D

As far as curvature goes that isn't really much of a problem for me as I can do that pretty easily, but I've been having trouble trying to determine the best direction for curvature and the dimensions. (Attachment) 47545[/ATTACH]

It is not that easy. The edges of each switch hole have to be straight and parallel or the switches will not fit properly.You would have to separate the columns ...

Deflection is pretty small (0.3mm difference in height between the edge and the centre, and 0.2mm in the y-axis, but the later can be accounted for by bend deductions). However I take your point, so I might try to knock something up with a transverse FR curve along the x-axis. As far as precision goes, my pressbrake is rated at 0.002mm so that shouldn't be an issue:[ATTACH=CONFIG]47655[/ATTACH]

I've removed all curvature across the key-holes, and I'm working on the edges. I've made the corners square for the moment, but I think that I've worked out a way around that, but it uses a crap load more metal.

QuinRiva: that's a good looking keywell. If we could get kinesis-like keywells on this project, it would be amazing!

Couple of manufactureing difficulties:1. it would be significantly harder to make. I imagine the only cost-effective way to get that shape would be to stamp it2. It raises the question on how to make a "base" for it. I wolud be fine with what is shown in your image, having an "open" keyboard like that, but if there needs to be some sort of case made, I imagine it would be difficult3. Making a PCB for that would be difficult, involving either multiple PCBs with connectors, or some sort of shaped/curved/flexible PCB

Nevertheless, the design is good, and all the issues aren't insurmountable. I imagine one could solder it point-to-point without too much difficulty. I don't know what it'd be to stamp them, though.

QuinRiva: that's a good looking keywell. If we could get kinesis-like keywells on this project, it would be amazing!

Couple of manufactureing difficulties:1. it would be significantly harder to make. I imagine the only cost-effective way to get that shape would be to stamp it2. It raises the question on how to make a "base" for it. I wolud be fine with what is shown in your image, having an "open" keyboard like that, but if there needs to be some sort of case made, I imagine it would be difficult3. Making a PCB for that would be difficult, involving either multiple PCBs with connectors, or some sort of shaped/curved/flexible PCB

Nevertheless, the design is good, and all the issues aren't insurmountable. I imagine one could solder it point-to-point without too much difficulty. I don't know what it'd be to stamp them, though.

1. Not really, as I have stated I intend to use a laser and press-brake to manufacture. Cost effectiveness is difficult to gauge as the large number of folds, most of which need to be accurate, demand a good-press brake and experienced operator. I have access to a good pressbrake and my operator is an Astro robot. However Dox's design could be manufactured on the cheap using sheet metal particularly if he squared the corners.2. I've already designed the base (see pictures below); however I don't intend to have an enclosure that sits around the keys. It wouldn't be too hard to make, I just don't think that it is necessary for plate mounted keyboards.3. Not really, I intend to just use a flexible PCB (http://www.instructables.com/id/DIY-Flexible-Printed-Circuits/). They can be a bit tricky to solder on, so I think that the best option is to use a solid PCB for the core components, and then a flexible PCB for the keys.

Hope that makes some sense. Keep up the suggestions though, as this is my first time at this sort of thing.

I like the idea of the bend-to-create-a-case, but I don't like the curvature. First of all it's too exaggerated, the pinkies would likely suffer having to hit the edge columns at such an angle. Anyway, I would like this keyboard to be flat for the following reasons:

1. It would make it much easier to type with one hand whenever you wanted to2. It would make it easier to type with 2-3 fingers on each hand (RSI battling technique)3. We don't need another Kinesis, whoever wants keywells can buy a pair from Kinesis with red or brown switches soldered in place and ready to go for just $90.

Right, I was about to say the same thing as Sordna, just a little different. If you want keywells, buy Kinesis keywells and make the rest of the case. Kinesis keywells are plastic but that shouldn't be a problem because there are keys on top of it so you can't see it anyway. :)

Apart from that I would say, if you're going for keywells make sure they're different from the Kinesis it would be much more interesting.

Personally I am very much looking forward to the flat version as well.

Right, I was about to say the same thing as Sordna, just a little different. If you want keywells, buy Kinesis keywells and make the rest of the case. Kinesis keywells are plastic but that shouldn't be a problem because there are keys on top of it so you can't see it anyway. :)

Apart from that I would say, if you're going for keywells make sure they're different from the Kinesis it would be much more interesting.

Personally I am very much looking forward to the flat version as well.

I have made a 3D keyboard design that is a middle-ground between Dox's flat keyboard, Kinesis key wells and standard QWERTY. I made several physical models to try it out, both in clay and with key switches and test typed on them. I am still stumped on how to manufacture a small run and not cost a fortune. Anyway ...

One conclusion that I came to is that I don't like the feeling when keys switches are angled too much. The ideal (for me) would actually be if all switches are pointing in the same direction but with curvature being from switches at different heights and with custom key caps.Slanted columns and traditional key caps may feel better than flat, but only if the curvature is very slight.

I wasn't aware that the Kinesis Keywells were available separately, that would substantially simplify the manufacturing process. Does anyone know how I would go about buying the keywells (with Cherry Reds) and potentially the thumb area from Australia?

Also does anyone know where I could get a dimensionalised drawing of the keywells?

Beta firmware's ready :D . As far as I can tell from a little testing on my breadboard at least - it looks stable.

The project is on github at https://github.com/benblazak/ergodox-firmware.

The pertinent files at this point are probably:

- The diagram of how i have it set up: [ATTACH=CONFIG]48135[/ATTACH](which is also here as an svg (https://raw.github.com/benblazak/ergodox-firmware/master/src/keyboard/ergodox/_circuit-diagram.svg), but it looks like you'll have to download it to view it)

- The text documentation for the Teensy 2.0 (https://github.com/benblazak/ergodox-firmware/blob/master/src/keyboard/ergodox/teensy-2-0.md) and MCP23018 (https://github.com/benblazak/ergodox-firmware/blob/master/src/keyboard/ergodox/mcp23018.md) code (which is less visually clear, but has lots more notes)

- And the hex file (https://github.com/downloads/benblazak/ergodox-firmware/ergodox-firmware--20120411_2105.hex) of the current firmware build :)

For notes on what it can do at the moment see the readme.md (on github) or the last commit message for the master branch. Let me know what you guys think :) .

::edit::Wow, just realized I reversed the row pins for the MCP23018 in my diagram. It's correct in the .md file though. I'll have to fix the diagram later.

You could also go with a standard phone cable (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/4P4C#4P4C). Especially if this is going to be sold in volume, it would allow the end user to replace with whatever length and style (ie curly/straight) they like by running over to the nearest dollar store.

Can't the PCB have a cutaway so that the socket has more room up and down? Of course the socket should be secured by the case, not by the PCB (you would need some flexible leads between socket and PCB).

Can't the PCB have a cutaway so that the socket has more room up and down? Of course the socket should be secured by the case, not by the PCB (you would need some flexible leads between socket and PCB).

No, those sockets need to be soldered/fixed on the PCB and even if I was doing that, the distance from the interior bottom to the top of the case is 16mm (13mm usable for a connector) it's still not enough.Let's find something else!

I still like the 3.5mm (or 2.5mm) TRRS best, especially aesthetically - as long as it's possible to make it safe from shorting Vcc and any of the other 3. It looks like the size limitations are going to keep things small enough for my taste whatever gets decided on though :) .

If using 2 sockets is an option, have you looked at any of those small coaxial power connectors (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Coaxial_power_connector)?

Or something simple like a small 4 pin molex (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Molex_connector)? (Actually, I used to think this connector would be too big and not very pretty, but now I'm starting to think it might look cool...)

sordna: If you want a curly phone cable anyway, you could always cut the connectors off one and solder some others in their place. I've been sort of planning on making my own cable if I can, just to get the size and such just right.

I still like the 3.5mm (or 2.5mm) TRRS best, especially aesthetically - as long as it's possible to make it safe from shorting Vcc and any of the other 3. It looks like the size limitations are going to keep things small enough for my taste whatever gets decided on though :) .

If using 2 sockets is an option, have you looked at any of those small coaxial power connectors (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Coaxial_power_connector)?

Or something simple like a small 4 pin molex (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Molex_connector)? (Actually, I used to think this connector would be too big and not very pretty, but now I'm starting to think it might look cool...)

sordna: If you want a curly phone cable anyway, you could always cut the connectors off one and solder some others in their place. I've been sort of planning on making my own cable if I can, just to get the size and such just right.

Yeah think that the TRRS option is the best for now. Avoiding to short the Vcc is easy, just put the power on the contact that is the furthest outside of the case. That way, there is no chance to short anything. I prefer to use cables/connectors that are build for external use. That rules out the molex and ribbon cables.I can't seem to find a pcb mounted 4 contact TRRS 3.5 or 2.5mm. I have to continue searching.

I can't seem to find a pcb mounted 4 contact TRRS 3.5 or 2.5mm. I have to continue searching.

Would this 2.5mm audio jack (http://www.digikey.ca/product-detail/en/SJ1-42515TS/CP1-42515TS-ND/659902) work? Kps linked to it a while ago (I remembered because it was just just before I joined the forum and they were talking about I2C).

Or maybe this 3.5mm audio jack (http://www.digikey.ca/product-detail/en/SJ-43515TS/CP-43515TS-ND/368147) would be better - or maybe there's a different one on there that'd be preferable, I'm not really sure what some of the specs mean so I couldn't tell. :)

Quote from: Dox;574136

Avoiding to short the Vcc is easy, just put the power on the contact that is the furthest outside of the case.

What about things like if the connector gets plugged in to the right hand side first, and then shorts on the left hand side case (or some keys, or something)? Or am I just being paranoid now, lol.

I think the compile error was from me using `$(shell find ... '*.c')` in the makefile (which in windows probably meant that no .c files were included in the build at all, lol). Sorry, I forgot to think about that. Hopefully it works now (using `$(wildcard ... *.c)`).

As for the .hex, I just downloaded and retested it on my little setup, and it worked... What should happen is:- all the LEDs should go high for about 1 second (while USB initializes and we wait for drivers to load)- then all LEDs should go off unless one of the indicators is currently set (I have numlock on in the picture below)- it should wait for "keypresses" and generate them if they're detected

Did I do the diagram wrong? I'll put an actual pic of my setup below just in case.

breadboard setup:- note: row and column pins are disconnected; i don't have switches of any type at the moment, so i've been using temporary wires when i needed to test for keypresses[ATTACH=CONFIG]48226[/ATTACH]

I have tested the firmware on a breadboard and everything seem to work fine.I'm now modifying my 3d model with the 3.5mm TRRS and then the pcb.After 6 months, this is getting very close to the first prototype. Thanks to everyone who got involved in a way or an other until now!

You could probably use threaded 3.5mm connectors for extra connection strength.

Normally, I'm rather against those, but in this case, I think it's okay, as you can use non threaded connectors with most (All?) threaded jacks. I think the real issue now is finding threaded TRRS connectors.

Bytheway, I would still prefer to have two 3.5mm jacks (one to send, and one to receive). It'd be much more flexible in terms of choice (there are a million TS and TRS jacks) and TS and TRS plugs are very durable, and easy to find. I grabbed 20 or so Neutrik (now REAN) NYS-231 TRS plugs. You can get them ~$.70 shipped in low quantities (.90 for the TRS version)http://www.daleproaudio.com/p-4058-neutrik-nys226-35mm-ts-mono-connector-nickelsilver.aspx

These are easy to solder to, cheap and in practice have been more durable than the extremely beefy Canare F-16

One issue is that you'd be carrying mixed signals power/data on the same connector.---I anticipate the largest issue with the TRRS connector is the fact that when it's plugged or unplugged, you will temporarily short each connector to ground as you unplug it or plug it in. This may not be a big issue for the data lines, but there should be some protection for when the power is temporarily shorted to ground.

I will continue looking for a beefy enough low profile connector suitable for this task.

I love this design and I'm interested in one for ~$400, possibly w/ soldering service.

I have a note/suggestion (apologies if this is already covered upthread):

Is it a deliberate design choice to have outer-bottom key normal-sized rather than wide like the 4 above it? From my own experience with the equivalent key as a modifier (alt) on the Truly Ergonomic board, having a wider key helps in two ways:

As a single modifier: I tend to move my whole arm slightly out of home row alignment. This coarse motion stays accurate because of the wider key surface (Fitts' Law at work?). Similarly, I find swatting the wide hyphen/minus on the top corner of the TE to be easier than on a traditional board.

As a combo modifier with the key above: In this case, the pinky would actuate the bottom key and the ring finger the key above it. The pinky naturally wants to rest farther out than the ring finger, and in the current layout would tend to locate over the "empty" space that could be captured by a wider key.

You're probably too far along on schematics and prototyping but I thought I'd put in my two cents. Keep up the great work!

I have followed this thread closely for a month now, and have slowly built up enthusiasm for this project. Thus, I will throw my name in the hat as well, for anywhere between $300 and $400 (Edit: This would be fully assembled WITH keycaps). I very much look forward to seeing the first prototype!

Damn this is gonna be expensive ;( and also I don't like the shapeways idea.Did you considered to make this projects more public so that you can find maybe company's who are willing to buy in larger scales or even sponsors?I would buy a metal version for up to 200$ ... but this would be a miracle if this could be happen.

Pls update the first post if something changes in the design or the price since this is the first information that a uninformed person will get.

Damn this is gonna be expensive ;( and also I don't like the shapeways idea.Did you considered to make this projects more public so that you can find maybe company's who are willing to buy in larger scales or even sponsors?I would buy a metal version for up to 200$ ... but this would be a miracle if this could be happen.

Pls update the first post if something changes in the design or the price since this is the first information that a informed person will get.

Damn this is gonna be expensive ;( and also I don't like the shapeways idea.

As I mentioned on deskthority the case parts of the blue split keyboard would cost around 50€ or even less if optimized for it. which I find rather cheap - but for that flat design a custom PCB would also work, true. But then there would still be no case around it.

The idea of promoting it is tempting, but after that Desaster with the other great design on this forum (can't remember the name, programmable tenkeyless with tracking that was later copied in China) I am not anxious to put my work and money into something that would be too easy to copy anyways. So open-sourcing the design documents and firmware as well as giving some help building it will allow anybody interested to recreate or better yet improve the design.

If that was a rant I think your blood sugar must be low, or perhaps you're on some depressant?

Anyhow, while kickstarter is nifty there's a whole lot of work to put into making a project KS ready, and there's a whole lot of money that gets eaten by KS. Also if you decide to go the KS route, you are deciding that if the KS funding falls through the project doesn't happen. I don't know what sort of link you get to your funders, but here Dox gets the ability to say that he's going through with it one way or the other and the more people that are interested the lower the price is. You can't vary pricing in KS based on funding and I'm sure they would crack down on someone trying to use KS as a communications platform to get the under-funded project going with different pricing by way of paypal.

Suka: Your project is awesome. Jim66, thanks for the original post. If I ever do a keyboard completely by myself, I'm gunna be digging out your link :) . Also (in response to some comments on the deskauthority thread), for using a connector between the two halves, have you considered I2C or SPI I/O expanders? It looks like we'll stick with I2C for this project, but if you're willing to accept the extra wire (5 total instead of 4) SPI would be much faster (from experiment, a simple usage of I2C seems to limit the scan rate to ~167Hz IIRC). We have a firmware (https://github.com/benblazak/ergodox-firmware) (that's not quite done, but should be stable enough) that'll handle I2C, if you didn't want to just add the capability to your own. And if the Teensy has similar hardware support for SPI I doubt it'd be overly hard to add. Anyway, thanks for the write up :) .

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Rburrows, tjweir, OrangeJewce: I've been considering dorkvader kind of the official greeter all this time, but I wanted to welcome you too. I'm glad to see people still posting to register interest!

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And Dox, I know I'm way late, but I never said how excited I was (am) that we're getting close to first prototype. :D

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About the connector:

Did we loose a few posts? But anyway, the discussion made me think about it even more, and here's a few things I realized (I'll call the MCP23018 side the LH side, and the Teensy side the RH side, for the sake of brevity):

The LH side isn't connected to anything till we plug it in; so no matter how the contacts are arranged, only one side has power, and we're safe from direct Vcc/GND shorts.

This makes me think it'd be better to put GND on the sleeve (and probably Vcc on the tip), like dorkvader was talking about. He had better reasons - I just think it'd be more standard, and just as good.

I found one other project (http://www.seeedstudio.com/wiki/Electronic_Brick_-_OLED_128*64_Display) that was using TRRS for I2C. He had it wired (tip to sleeve) SCL, SDA, Vcc, GND, with a resistor on Vcc it looks like (and I don't know if anything else).

The user will have a choice of which side to plug in first; so no matter how the contacts are arranged:

Either the LH Vcc pin will be brought low or the LH GND pin will be brought high; or both.

Would regular diodes on Vcc and GND be able to help us with this? Or is the MCP23018 okay with that? I wasn't able to find it in the datasheet (http://ww1.microchip.com/downloads/en/DeviceDoc/22103a.pdf).

Any RH pin will have a chance of touching any LH pin on each insert; so we need to make sure all the pins will be fine with that.

We also have to keep in mind that SCL and SDA will be oscillating between logic low and hi-Z with a 2.2kΩ pull-up during insert (unless the RH side isn't plugged in to USB yet).

Also:

I still think we should at least put a current limiting diode (like this one) (http://www.mouser.com/ProductDetail/Semitec/E-103/?qs=wgO0AD0o1vtPvEuL9OtJxD39URT4QO5WtLCSYapIzZM%3d) on the RH Vcc. If you want, it might be extra safe to put a 2mA one on the LH Vcc. Or, since it looks like the MCP23018 can operate at full speed down to at least 2.7V, a current limiting resistor should also work.

Would it be good to have TVS diodes on all the pins, to protect from ESD? I hadn't thought of that before, but it seems like a good idea to me, if there's room.

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About the firmware:

I was wondering if anyone would care to design a QWERTY (and maybe Dvorak?) layout? The current QWERTY layout is rather pathetic, but I just don't feel like putting that much time into it because I'm likely going to neglect both and give Arensito (http://www.pvv.org/~hakonhal/main.cgi/keyboard) a serious shot. What I'm thinking, if I can get decent QWERTY and/or Dvorak layouts, is that I'll compile the firmware with all three layouts separately, and post 3 different .hex files for everyone's convenience. If you'd like to take a look, please see the layout documentation file (https://github.com/benblazak/ergodox-firmware/blob/dev/src/keyboard/ergodox/layout.md) on github (make sure you're on the 'dev' branch), and let me know if you have any questions.

Partly implied in the above, I'm not currently planning to implement on-keyboard remapping. I'm almost certain it wouldn't be technically hard (it might be almost trivial) with the current design, but I can't think of a good way to do it. The thing is, if you're willing to learn the *smallest* bit about Make and C (or if you already know both; and I'll try to write a little howto before I consider the project done) you'll be able to remap to your heart's content *and* store keymaps much more easily than you could with on-keyboard remapping, and with no extra effort in the firmware. If you're willing to learn a lot (or just a little extra, if you already know C), you'll be able to write new keypress/release functions (all keypresses and releases are function calls) and do most anything you want, which wouldn't be possible at all with other methods. If anyone has some good ideas about how on-keyboard remapping could work though, I'd be interested to hear them; if only because it's a problem I couldn't think of an elegant solution to.

Also, I'm currently working on NKRO. I'd really like to make it work, but I'm not completely sure if I'll have the patience. Is this very important to people?

And if anyone has any other thoughts on the firmware I'd be interested to hear them, since the design is starting to finalize in my head. Not sure what else I'll have the patience/time to implement, but suggestions are always good.

Would the controller be able to handle mouse movements? My initial idea would be to have an embedded cursor key set in the right half (layer key in the left half) and the same on the left, but for the mouse. The mouse click buttons would be on the thumb keys in the same layer.

ijkl - cursor keysedsf - mouse keys. Mouse buttons on the two main thumb keys on the left half.

:) So it looks like I don't need to be sad if NKRO falls through then. I *do* still want to try though, just because it'd be a shame for the USB spec to beat me like that...

Quote from: hoggy;583601

I'll take a look at the layouts over the weekend if that's okay.

Thanks!

---

About mouse movements, it's not possible in the firmware right now, but I think PJRC has some code that would work, so hopefully it won't be way too hard. [EDIT: I tried it and it didn't work like I hoped - so it will be pretty hard, or at least pretty time consuming. Oops. But I'll see if I can do it anyway.] Thanks for reminding me, by the way, I meant to support that at one point but then I forgot. It's in my todo list now.

And, sorry, no thoughts on mouse keys from me - lol, to be honest, between gvim and a real mouse, I don't see their purpose - but I think lots of other people here will be happy to have them around :) .

If anyone has some good ideas about how on-keyboard remapping could work though, I'd be interested to hear them; if only because it's a problem I couldn't think of an elegant solution to.

What do you think about the Kinesis way (http://www.kinesis-ergo.com/tech_support/remapping.htm)? The process is very simple:1. Enter remapping mode by pressing some key combination2. Press the key with the character you want to remap (source)3. Press key at the location you want the above characters to be at (target)4. Optionally repeat steps 2 and 3 for other keys5. Exit remapping mode by pressing some key combination

While this is simple, there are some constraints: you always move all characters from a key, that is unshifted and shifted. That's mostly OK, but some people may want to move number row shifted symbols independently from the numbers themselves for example. Maybe advanced remappings such as this could require software, but basic remapping would not.

Important to note: In step 2 the current remapping does not matter, the "source" character is always from the default unremapped keyboard

Personally I like this approach a lot, it's very easy and requires no software. No matter which OS I boot into, I always have the layout I want.

What do you think about the Kinesis way (http://www.kinesis-ergo.com/tech_support/remapping.htm)?

I think it's good, within the limitations you mentioned. Additionally, you cannot save or reload previous maps that you've made, so to me it'd seem that it was only good for quick remaps involving just a few keys. Also, as you mentioned, the "source" character is always from the default unremapped keyboard - but with a DIY project there is no One True Default keyboard, as there is with a commercial product. Actually, if things work out, there will be Three True Defaults, lol, along with the option to roll your own, which I was thinking would be rather confusing (and the Kinesis method of making everyone use the default QWERTY map to remap, even if their keycaps are Dvorak, seems unreasonable to me). So that would increase the documentation burden a bit - and the burden on the keymap designers.

Still, you're making me reconsider... Are quick, small remaps common enough for it to be worth it? Or, are Make and the avr-gcc toolchain (even with a nice howto written up) user unfriendly enough that the limitations of the Kinesis method are worth it for larger remaps? I tend to forget that not everyone's perfectly at home with a terminal and a text editor, so I'm probably in need of some perspective here.

Quote from: boli;583673

[...] you always move all characters from a key, that is unshifted and shifted. [...]

In Kinesis defense, this is a (slightly annoying) consequence of how keyboards are designed. That is, keys and shifted keys have the same keycode, and the host is responsible for registering different characters based on the presence of modifiers (which are either present for all the keys pressed, or none of them), so there's nothing the keyboard can do. If you really wanted to move symbols around separately, it might be possible to implement shift as a layer key and use the standalone keycodes for symbols... but that'd be changing the meaning of things.

Which brings up another limitation of the Kinesis method: keycodes not present in the default layout aren't available at all.

Quote from: boli;583673

Personally I like this approach a lot, it's very easy and requires no software. No matter which OS I boot into, I always have the layout I want.

For what it's worth, modding the keymap in the firmware source would be OS independent too - and the software required already works (with slightly different interfaces) on every major OS.

[...] it's not possible in the firmware right now, but I think PJRC has some code that would work, so hopefully it won't be way too hard. [...]

Spoke too soon :/ . The PJRC keyboard and mouse code doesn't quite work together, so I have to go learn about device side USB before I can implement it, which might take a while. Or I could use LUFA, but that looks just as hard. Can't say when (or promise if) I'll have it done, but I'll work on it. Sorry about that.

All this talk of programming: I'm personally not that excited about it, especially given how easy it should be to program a new layout on these things. It might be a handy thing to have, but ultimately, I'd rather get the work done on that when we're waiting for them to ship. Same with full NKRO. It'd be amazing, but it's a "want" not a needed feature, and I feel it should be implemented once we are assured of the production and all critical features are taken care of.

Fossala: We're still trying to price things out. The last price update I remember was in december 2011:

Quote from: Dox;479955

Ok, here is the new case. There is still no trackpoint. (Attachment) 36215[/ATTACH] (Attachment) 36214[/ATTACH]

2 set of 11 plates (including the mounting plate) per hand. The plates are symmetric for the second hand. I still need to do something to give it some angle/mounting option.

To give you an idea, for 10 set of 11 plates (5 keyboards) not anodized, the cost would be around 110$ per hand (plates only).

Now, I imagine the cost will be somewhat lower, as the quantity will likely be an order of magnitude higher. From what I've read on machine shop prices, it might not be that much lower, though.

So if the case is $200 total, the PCB will likely come in under $100. Switches are ~$0.8*76=$60 (unless you're harvesting them from somewhere, or already bought them from 7bit), teensy is ~$18 (I think?). I don't know what the connecting cable, connectors and that signalling chip is, but I feel like it's under $30 all told.

So all in all, maybe about $400 without keycaps.

The best savings will be in the PCB. Lots of PCB fabs will get you a much better deal in quantities of 50+, which we should have. No idea about getting the case cheaper, though.

Fossala: We're still trying to price things out. The last price update I remember was in december 2011:

Now, I imagine the cost will be somewhat lower, as the quantity will likely be an order of magnitude higher. From what I've read on machine shop prices, it might not be that much lower, though.

So if the case is $200 total, the PCB will likely come in under $100. Switches are ~$0.8*76=$60 (unless you're harvesting them from somewhere, or already bought them from 7bit), teensy is ~$18 (I think?). I don't know what the connecting cable, connectors and that signalling chip is, but I feel like it's under $30 all told.

So all in all, maybe about $400 without keycaps.

The best savings will be in the PCB. Lots of PCB fabs will get you a much better deal in quantities of 50+, which we should have. No idea about getting the case cheaper, though.

This seems very steep. Hopefully the target price will be reached which will also include keycaps. $400 for an assembled board sans-caps, IMO, might be out of reach for many of us. I suppose only time will tell. If you guys are looking for volunteers related to working with the Keyboard mapping software I suppose I would be down. Seems like it could be an interesting experience.

I'm interested in one of these! I should have a bit of keyboard soldering experience under my belt by the time this gets produced.

I'll add you to the list!

Quote from: OrangeJewce;586062

This seems very steep. Hopefully the target price will be reached which will also include keycaps. $400 for an assembled board sans-caps, IMO, might be out of reach for many of us. I suppose only time will tell. If you guys are looking for volunteers related to working with the Keyboard mapping software I suppose I would be down. Seems like it could be an interesting experience.

Cheers,

I'm hoping we can get it down under $300, as a lot of people say they're committed up to that point.

Quote from: boli;586130

Will the keyboard have F# keys? I just noticed there are none on the rendered pics:

Show Image

(http://geekhack.org/attachment.php?attachmentid=36215)

Well, since it's programmable, all the keys are dedicated F keys, if you want. I imagine though that there's not a huge amount of need, especially considering the prospect of layers. You can have a dedicated "function" key to turn all the regular number keys into function keys. I imagine if you use them a lot, you can even convert some of the modifiers on the side into function keys (as I imagine I'll have more modifiers near the thumb area.

If the pcb design can be exported in gerber, the costs from the chinese pcb shops would be pretty low in volume, likely under $50 per pair. Even less due to 2x volume scale if the design can be mirrored, though this would be a bit tricky. Cherry switches can be flipped around though, but there's also connectors and chips to consider..

I don't really see a need for dedicated f-keys. I'd prefer to have to do it similar to the poker where you hold FN+"appropriate number" to get your f-key.

How do you press F12 on the Poker? (used to move optical media tray in/out on Macs) :P

Quote from: dorkvader;587670

Well, since it's programmable, all the keys are dedicated F keys, if you want. I imagine though that there's not a huge amount of need, especially considering the prospect of layers. You can have a dedicated "function" key to turn all the regular number keys into function keys. I imagine if you use them a lot, you can even convert some of the modifiers on the side into function keys (as I imagine I'll have more modifiers near the thumb area.

F# keys are also nice to double as media keys and such, possibly when some sort of Fn is pressed (as e.g. on Apple keyboards). IMO Esc needs to be available on the top layer (without any modifiers) - that shouldn't be a problem with the extra keys around the main area.

As for the F# (and media) keys, I'm aware that 4 layers on the number row could partially do it (normal, shifted, function and media). There are not enough keys to spare for dedicated F#/media keys... Compared to a Kinesis Advantage it as 5 fewer keys overall (8 more in the main area, 13 less in the function row).

On the Kinesis I use most F# keys as media keys (most importantly play/pause and volume controls), and some of them as the real F# keys, namely those used for debugging in Eclipse. All of these are on the top layer, no modifier needed.

Don't mean to rain on the parade, but when I see the exploded view of the layers, I'm concerned with the bolt design. The size of the holes, especially with the tapering, that close to the edge seems way too big. I'm not convinced that the corners will hold up. It would be awesome if someone with experience in industrial design could comment.

Is this project still in flight? Is it Dox's project or a GH community endeavor?

Yup, it's nearing prototype :) . And it's DOX's project - though there is a bit of community effort going on for interest tracking (dorkvader), and firmware (me), and a few people have said they might be able to make keymaps.

I've been working ~70h a week in the last few weeks so I didn't had much time to put on this.I have a 3 day weekend and I don't have anything planned so I want to finish the pcb layout and order it as soon as possible.

I've been working ~70h a week in the last few weeks so I didn't had much time to put on this.I have a 3 day weekend and I don't have anything planned so I want to finish the pcb layout and order it as soon as possible.

This is why we love you, Dox. You are super busy, and still dedicated.I mean, I only work 30 hours a week, and I'm not doing hardly anything to help. You are an inspiration to us all.

I have ordered some prototype PCBs. There is the option for PCB mounted switches, diode outside or inside the switch as well as SMD (http://ca.mouser.com/ProductDetail/Vishay-Semiconductors/1N4148W-V-GS18/?qs=9UrfSeCy%252bVa2LauxRB857Njw2wTz92Gf).

I especially like the profusion of mounting holes. We sholud have no trouble with flex.

Are they one-sided PCB's with a lot of jumpers, or does the red denote traces on the second layer?

Thanks, these are 2 sided. The red traces are on the top layer of the PCB.

Quote from: hoggy;597357

Nice one, Dox! My eyes started to follow the traces - it wasn't long before I got lost.

Thanks, it's quite hard to follow from the picture, especially with the ground planes.

Quote from: dirge;597369

Can u buy me a PCB set please :) I can't wait for a final kit!

FYI, the prototype PCBs cost me ~300$ for 2 sets. Prices will be much lower with bigger quantity but I ordered the minimum qty just to test everything.

Quote from: ic07;597396

that's awesome, DOX!

Thanks! Your firmware highly facilitate the tracing. I don't know if I have followed your intended matrix as I went for the simplest way to trace it with the assigned pins. There will probably be some remapping needed in the firmware. No big deal.

Quote from: Netdewt;597612

Will the PCBs be available a la carte?

Yes, when everything will be ready and tested!

Quote from: ped;597829

Nom, I'm with dirge on this! Can I buy a PCB? :D

I don't think a lot of people would want to pay 150$ for a set of PCB that are not even tested yet.

Looking good, DOX! Good to see all the diode placement options. I just recently soldered SMD diodes to my KMAC. It wasn't hard at all. Just need steady hands.

Thanks lister! I decided to put the SMD as it wasn't much more work and it's good to have options. I'll probably go for the trough hole ones on the first prototype as I have a few hundreds of them but I may try the SMD on the final or the second prototype PCB.

SMD diodes are a lot more expensive than through-hole diodes. And Mouser is cheaper than digikey. I ordered extra last time. because I it was only a couple more dollars to reach the next level of discount.

Hehe, send me a set of PCBs and I can test for SMD diodes placement. :D I will pay for it, if you have extra.

Dox I'm loving this, get pics of those boards the moment they arrive! And I'm sure the boards would have been a bit cheaper if we'd thrown money at you for prototypes ;)

Makes sense though, if he overlooked something and it needs manual fixing then you'd think "Damn, paid all that money for something 'broken'". With that said, I'd have paid for one at that price. But yeah, exciting! :D

They sell reds in 15 packs for sure (I got 2 such packs already), for larger quantities it will probably have to be a special order, but they're accomodating.All their switches are the style for their Kinesis Advantage (with pins for pcb mount, and with built-in diodes), so it would be MX1A-L1DW for their reds, and MX1A-G1DW for their browns.

Yes, a 15-pack of reds (MX1A-L1DW) goes for $15. So it's a dollar a switch. Kinesis part number for the 15-pack is KC009REP, they mainly sell these packs to people that are converting their Advantage keyboards to the LF version (you would buy a pair of red keywells for $90 I believe, and a 15-pack to swap the thumbswitches). However I bought 2 packs (30 switches for $30) without buying any keywells. They should be able to do a better price for larger quantity of switches, we should ask them how much they would charge for maybe a 90-pack.

One small problem. I have installed the diodes the same way I have done for the DoxKB but the scanning in inverted in IC07 firmware so nothing registers for the moment. I tested with a jumper and everything seem to work fine otherwise. I'll try to invert the scanning in the firmware as the diodes are a PITA to desolder in the small plated

The TRRS cable works like a charm! A HDMI cable would have been way too bulky.

One small problem. I have installed the diodes the same way I have done for the DoxKB but the scanning in inverted in IC07 firmware so nothing registers for the moment. I tested with a jumper and everything seem to work fine otherwise. I'll try to invert the scanning in the firmware as the diodes are a PITA to desolder in the small plated

The TRRS cable works like a charm! A HDMI cable would have been way too bulky.

Wow, that picture of it loaded up with switches, with the LED's on looks amazing! I want to convert it to ascii-art, type it up on the typewriter (I have no printer at the moment) and put it on the wall!

Now that you have the switches on a board, what do you think about the key placement? How does it feel?

Wow, that picture of it loaded up with switches, with the LED's on looks amazing! I want to convert it to ascii-art, type it up on the typewriter (I have no printer at the moment) and put it on the wall!

Now that you have the switches on a board, what do you think about the key placement? How does it feel?

No soldermask as it's a "prototype". The final version will have a soldermask.I haven't played much with it yet but I think the key placement is pretty much spot on from my first impressions.

Quote from: sordna;600373

So cool! Oh, can you please make sure the firmware is such that cherry switches with built-in diodes work? That's what should dictate the orientation...

The way I placed the diodes on the PCB is the same orientation as the built-in diodes. So the firmware should be revised to follow this.

Oh grr, it should. I'll do that then. Might not be able to get to it for a few days though. Sorry to be busy now that things are getting so exciting, lol. I'll make time as soon as I can!

So what we want (since the MCP23018 is open drain) is to have the columns hi-Z (off) / drive low (on), and the rows input with pull-up?

No problems, I'll wait for your revised firmware. Yes, we want the rows input with pull-up. Thanks again for doing this!

Quote from: hoggy;600443

Dox, I don't know anything about electronics, but I noticed the right hand side has a diode per switch, but the left side hasn't... I'm curious - could you tell me why, please?

PS - looks really sweet!

There are diodes on both side for every switches. The left side diodes are just hidden behind the switches in the picture.

Quote from: REVENGE;600456

One minor gripe: I would've preferred the Teensy to be on the left side. That way, I could run just the left half for gaming. :evil:

But nonetheless, that is just hot s***.

The good thing is that you can move the halves as you wish. Just place the right hand away and place the left hand beside your mouse.

Quote from: ped;600490

Don't know if it's possible to fit the two options in the PCB, but if yes, could you allow for the 2x thumb keys be mountable POS style as an alternative?

I don't know why you would want to do this. 2 switches for 1 key = double the activation force. Not something that I would want. And the keys that fits that placement are standard keys with centered stems and standard stabilizers.

I don't know why you would want to do this. 2 switches for 1 key = double the activation force. Not something that I would want. And the keys that fits that placement are standard keys with centered stems and standard stabilizers.

Because it would allow for choosing to divide the keys into two 1x keys if desired. Never mind though, just a thought.

how much are the pcbs at medium quantity? i'd be interested in assembling a few pcbs for people over the next couple of months while case designs are finalized. imo i think it's a good idea to have some pcbs percolating and being beta tested for code development and as an opportunity to make changes to the pcb before a large quantity run

btw, raw or plated pcbs can be just placed on top of soft surfaces to be used/tested, or placed into prototyped cases of various materials ;)

If you read through the first post, I lightheartedly misquoted (almost) everyone. Also, I wasn't a mod, when I "quoted" you. You have to be precise about this sort of thing.

It's not a big deal for me to remove you from the list completely, or change your statement of interest. Just PM me or post here.

Quote from: didjamatic;601971

Depending on final product I will take 1-3 of them. Can't commit 100% until I know the final product and price. Looks like a great keyboard.

Quote from: merijn;601995

If I can afford it as a student, I will buy one. It looks awesome, and I'd love to have one. Keep up the good work!

Quote from: mSSM;602036

I am interested in one of these as well! Please with less Tab Keys though! :D

I'll add you all to the list presently. When I saw the tab keys I thought: How many cherry keyboards does DOX have?

Edit: Keep in mind that a keyset is not planned (yet) so it's up to you DIYers to come up with keycaps. Nevertheless, I believe WASDkeyboards may be a good source if a GB ever occurs. I'd get a blank keyset for obvious reasons :p

This really does feel like it's on the cusp! However we haven't seen anything on the case yet, so I would expect at least another month before final touches are made. Excellent, excellent work Dox!

Cheers,

I'm working on the case right now. I will order a prototype from shapeways soon (1-2 week).

Quote from: mkawa;601999

DAT FACE!

how much are the pcbs at medium quantity? i'd be interested in assembling a few pcbs for people over the next couple of months while case designs are finalized. imo i think it's a good idea to have some pcbs percolating and being beta tested for code development and as an opportunity to make changes to the pcb before a large quantity run

btw, raw or plated pcbs can be just placed on top of soft surfaces to be used/tested, or placed into prototyped cases of various materials ;)

For 10 PCB it's about 45$ each (90 for both).

I placed some sticky insulation material in the corners to give a slope to the PCB. I really like this placement so far for my"ghost" typing. Similar to the ms ergo 4000.[ATTACH=CONFIG]51680[/ATTACH][ATTACH=CONFIG]51681[/ATTACH][ATTACH=CONFIG]51682[/ATTACH]

Quote from: dorkvader;602046

I'll add you all to the list presently. When I saw the tab keys I thought: How many cherry keyboards does DOX have?

Edit: Keep in mind that a keyset is not planned (yet) so it's up to you DIYers to come up with keycaps. Nevertheless, I believe WASDkeyboards may be a good source if a GB ever occurs. I'd get a blank keyset for obvious reasons :p

Haha I don't even have 1 functional cherry keyboard except my DoxKBs. The tab keys are from the SP grab bag. I'm trying to figure what are the best profile for the vertical 1.5 keys. I think the tab is working quite well.

I think that the thumb keys are a bit too far out. The 3 furthest keys are hard to reach and my thumb is a bit too stretched in the standard (thumb on space) position.I will put them closer for the case prototype. I will cut the thumb from the PCB and hand wire it to test it.

As an aside, I noticed the name on the PCBs was DoxErgo. I was kind of hoping it would be named the Dox64. I just love the sound of the latter, and since the design is based off of the Key64, I thought it was fitting. Regardless this looks great. I keep counting something like 38 keys a half, making a total of 76 keys. We might have to get a GB going just for a set of caps for this guy since it's so unique.

Cheers,

P.S. If we can get the board for something like $250, I'd double my order.

Reason I ask is that some people are wanting to go "up to" a certain amount for a complete keyboard, and some are budgeting for other parts (because they have switches like me, or keycaps already, etc.)

I'll update the list when I get home.---As far as the Name: I though ErgoDOX was the accepted name for it (Sordna's work, if I recall correctly) That said. I think Dox76 would be good as well. I think it's really up to DOX, as he's really the project head here :p

Also: DOX: are we going for shapeways/plastic case n the final product, or just the prototype? I think we might be able to get just as good or a better price elsewhere for your metal plate case idea.

BTW to keep the cost down for those that cannot afford the full monty, I would like to suggest that folks should be able to order this without case or plate. PCB mounted switches guarantee they will be solid, even without a plate, and as has been said, DIY cardboard case (or no case at all0 works for some folks.

Dorkvader: YGPMAs for the name: My bad, it does say ErgoDox. I don't mean to start a competition, and I hadn't re-read all 40+ pages of the thread to see if anyone had come up with a name previously, for forgive me if I had stepped on anyone's toes. Again I leave total veto power up to Dox, I only meant to prompt discussion (even if moot). I think we should wait and see what the costs are actually going to be. If it's going to be $300 without switches or caps then I suppose I'd agree with sordna. If we can keep it near or under $300 all included it might be better to just sell kits. I suspect that caps won't be expensive since most likely they would need to be blank.

Dox:Sorry it's taken so long... I think I got it though :) . Let me know if there's anything I missed. Here's the updated hex file (http://'https://github.com/downloads/benblazak/ergodox-firmware/ergodox-firmware--20120601_0116.hex') (most recent post on the github downloads page (http://'https://github.com/benblazak/ergodox-firmware/downloads')), compiled from the current github 'master' branch. If you end up compiling yourself, please keep in mind that I changed the makefile a LOT since I last merged the branches - and I tried to keep it WinAVR compatible, but I may have missed something there too. Hope not though.

Thanks a lot for posting the matrix update BTW. I had just finished trying to follow the traces on the PCB when I saw it, but I completely missed the changes to the thumb groups. And making a macro out of what you posted ended up being a better solution than my first idea anyway.

One thing I've been thinking about, and it seems to be uniform across all of the other KB GB's that I've seen (specifically I'm thinking of the phantom since that's the last one in a while.), is that they allow ordering of switches along with the kit, as well as assembly (if one desires), and that way consolidate all of the ordering. I only mention this because it seems like it will be a huge headache for those of us wanting assembly to have to order switches separately and then ship it all to the assembler.

Maybe I'm alone with that sentiment, and definitely putting cart before horse (since the prototyping isn't complete), but for whomever coordinates the inevitable GB it's food for thought.

Cheers,

P.S.ic07 you're the man. I have my fingers crossed that everything works great and that in the next couple of months (after the case prototype arrives) we can finally put up an order thread!

As far as I know they don't sell diodes separately, they only have the MX switches that have built-in diodes, and only browns and reds.Why don't you PM natas206 and invite him to this thread, as he works at Kinesis.

Would be interesting to get a hold of some PCB mounted MX switch bottom housing with integrated diode. That's all I really want/need since I've got plenty of switches on the way already. If a group buy would make them cheaper than buying small amounts as an individual direct from Kinesis, awesomesauce! Maybe we can get these from one of those electrical component websites too...

If we end up including LED based switches, we might want to look into organizing a GB for caps that will make use of them... unless WASD sells appropriate caps. How do the bigger switches look on the Kinesis with the LEDs on?

Would be interesting to get a hold of some PCB mounted MX switch bottom housing with integrated diode. That's all I really want/need since I've got plenty of switches on the way already.

If that's the case, what you want to do is simply get the diodes (1N4148). Most Cherry MX switches have a common housing; even if you're getting them without integrated diodes, the bottom housing has the holes/marking for the diodes. You would need to open up the switches, bend the diode legs, insert the diode, close the switches.Unlike half cherry MX switch housings, diodes are actually obtainable, and very easily so:http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B0002KRC7C

Hmm :/ . I tested 'space', 'enter', and 'page up' just now on my breadboard setup, using a wire to short the row and column pins, and using both xev (a linux program for printing X events) and one of those pages for testing keyboard rollover (http://gadzikowski.com/nkeyrollover.html) to see which keys registered, and they all worked properly. Dunno what would be pulling the effected row pins (F0 and F1) low like that...

What kind is the chip on the left part? Those unconnected pins? What functions do they have. I've had all sorts of strange behavior with floating pins on ICs (the different result depending on which surface the setup has been sitting on in particular). At least on some sort of logics you really have to pull all pins either low or high for them to act right.

Edit: I saw now that it is the right hand that is the problem. So my idea might not be worth much...

Mmm *nods*, I read about that while I was learning stuff for this project. Unless I mixed something up, internal pull-up is set on all unused pins. Except D6 on the teensy side, since that's pulled low (IIRC) through an LED. And the interrupt pins are floating I think on the left side (and there are some NC pins on that side as well..). I can't think of any other exceptions off the top of my head.

The Teensy I am familiar with =) and I never had any of those problems using it. I would guess the IO-pins are pulled either way regardless if they are set as outputs or inputs (with pull-up), but it sure shouldn't hurt to turn on the pull-ups. Actually I think most of my problems have been with leaving RESET- or CLOCK-pins floating when playing/learning logic ICs on a breadboard. When they start to flutter, very strange things tend to happen...

This type of design on a keyboard is has always been what I wanted. Esp. when reclined Vertically. I wonder if we can add that, or just let the users do this. Also, would it not be easier to do the case in a type of hard acrylic (PMMA) by submersion into casts that are vertically assigned in some sort of silicon or rubber?

I'll draw the idea in a few days, but basically it is a mold of the cases vertically aligned in a rubber/silica/foam cube with slits of these molds. Kinda like how cd cases are made. If you get it then I won't draw.

Also, the think I like about the size if the fact that we can abuse the Keyboard space to install an MCC or SD port to make it even boot. hehehe, we can even bootstrap a gumstix board to boot Linux with video, sound, wifi, and everything (http://gumstix.org/software-development/pre-built-images.html). God, How I love this era.

For now, lets concentrate on making this truly programmable KB. I wonder if we should do it from the keyboard, or flash the memory from an the computer? Still using the USB as power to flash the memory.

Tell me your Ideas, I know C, I can help in logic, but I do not know the advance stuff like Hex algorithms on the processor. I'd hate to use some proprietary with little documentation. I think I read this was going to be teensy, am I right? And really, I think we should not care about the BIOS compatibility. Everyone by now should have bought flashed ROMs with Phoenix Award BIOS or better yet coreboot. If you are a buyer, and say Nay, please do so.

Also, what encoding wille we use, UTF-8 or one of the latins?:http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Western_Latin_character_sets_(computing)I ask to see what I can do for output. I guess I need to read USB in a nutshell.

Also I work full time, so my contributions will be limited. I can offer a wiki if you like. Need to experiment with yawk.

PS Behold this beauty: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Lexus_LF-A_Crystallised_Wind.jpg And is functionality: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Maylan-interior-design-neue-wiener-werkstaette-interlux-roehm-_evonik-_indeustries-contemporary-light-art-sedan-chair-seats-manfred-kielnhofer-illumination-auchtion.jpg SUSE Linux or The Attachmate Group was not part of this: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Ted_Noten_Grandma's_Bag_Revisited_2009.jpg

This type of design on a keyboard is has always been what I wanted. Esp. when reclined Vertically. I wonder if we can add that, or just let the users do this. Also, would it not be easier to do the case in a type of hard acrylic (PMMA) by submersion into casts that are vertically assigned in some sort of silicon or rubber?

I'll draw the idea in a few days, but basically it is a mold of the cases vertically aligned in a rubber/silica/foam cube with slits of these molds. Kinda like how cd cases are made. If you get it then I won't draw.

Also, the think I like about the size if the fact that we can abuse the Keyboard space to install an MCC or SD port to make it even boot. hehehe, we can even bootstrap a gumstix board to boot Linux with video, sound, wifi, and everything (http://gumstix.org/software-development/pre-built-images.html). God, How I love this era.

For now, lets concentrate on making this truly programmable KB. I wonder if we should do it from the keyboard, or flash the memory from an the computer? Still using the USB as power to flash the memory.

Tell me your Ideas, I know C, I can help in logic, but I do not know the advance stuff like Hex algorithms on the processor. I'd hate to use some proprietary with little documentation. I think I read this was going to be teensy, am I right? And really, I think we should not care about the BIOS compatibility. Everyone by now should have bought flashed ROMs with Phoenix Award BIOS or better yet coreboot. If you are a buyer, and say Nay, please do so.

Also, what encoding wille we use, UTF-8 or one of the latins?:http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Western_Latin_character_sets_(computing)I ask to see what I can do for output. I guess I need to read USB in a nutshell.

Also I work full time, so my contributions will be limited. I can offer a wiki if you like. Need to experiment with yawk.

PS Behold this beauty: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Lexus_LF-A_Crystallised_Wind.jpg And is functionality: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Maylan-interior-design-neue-wiener-werkstaette-interlux-roehm-_evonik-_indeustries-contemporary-light-art-sedan-chair-seats-manfred-kielnhofer-illumination-auchtion.jpg SUSE Linux or The Attachmate Group was not part of this: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Ted_Noten_Grandma's_Bag_Revisited_2009.jpg

I think the sky and your wallet are the limits when it comes to case design and optional features.

I did some testing with the an adapted firmware from PrinsValium that I used for my doxkb at first and every key is registering correctly (no ghost keys).You can download it here (http://www.lsdox.com/ergodox/ergodox_test.rar) if you want to take a look.

>REVENGE Well, it is a dream keyboard. One that I wanted to make, but nevertheless, do you not think it much cheaper to use PMMA for making the cases?I got a -1 of vertical alignment.How it be programmed, OS level, or Hardware/KB Level?So it is the teensy, right? .If so, what encoding do you all vote? UTF 8‽ (I ask, cause there is a lot of symbols not needed in utf8⁂ lots)※

※If you can't read these, it means you are not using UTF8, and probably do not need them.

Hi guys, I'm new of GH, I found this thread looking for keyboards...and I think this project is awesome!I wasn't able to read 43 of the 46 pages of this thread (sorry), so I'm bluntly asking: do you have an idea about when you'll be able to actually sell/ship this fantastic keyboard? And for which price approximately?

As someone previously pointed out, I also think keycaps are not mandatory...I mean, buying keycaps is not a problem as long as the keys are Cherry MX, am I wrong?

If so, what encoding do you all vote? UTF 8‽ (I ask, cause there is a lot of symbols not needed in utf8⁂ lots)※

※If you can't read these, it means you are not using UTF8, and probably do not need them.

You keep asking about this encoding and I don't understand why. Keyboards put out scancodes, they do not put out character set codes. It is up to the OS to interpret the scancode and put the correct character on the screen (or alternately interpret it as the correct meta key).

Hi guys, I'm new of GH, I found this thread looking for keyboards...and I think this project is awesome!I wasn't able to read 43 of the 46 pages of this thread (sorry), so I'm bluntly asking: do you have an idea about when you'll be able to actually sell/ship this fantastic keyboard? And for which price approximately?

As someone previously pointed out, I also think keycaps are not mandatory...I mean, buying keycaps is not a problem as long as the keys are Cherry MX, am I wrong?

Thank you for your work.Fede

Hello and welcome to GH! I'll add you to the list. There's been a lot of pricing discussion, but nothing is set in stone yet. It all depends on what sort of volume pricing we can get. This is just a guess, but we should be able to get the PCB under $100, and the case maybe under $200. I haven't asked around for quotes yet, though.

As far as keyswitches and keycaps, some keyswitches are available at mouser.com, and there have been a number of group buys for them recently. Keycaps shouldn't be a huge issue, but you do have to realize that there are a large number of 1.5-width keys for the last row. You can see them as all the tabs and CTRL dox has in his picture, here:http://geekhack.org/attachment.php?attachmentid=51456&d=1338008738 That's twelve 1.5 keys total, if I am seeing it right.

If you use port F you might want to check JTAGEN fuse bit and JTD bit of MCUCR. This JTAG configuration can prevent from operation of port F. Default fuse bit setting of Teensy makes JTAGEN fuse unprogrammed, so you won't have this program, though, I think you still should check this to make sure. See datasheet for detail.I'd like to recommend you try this code in init function:

And another one, you may want to add small delay between port setting and reading port while matrix scanning. I think you can have delay in _update_rows() in teensy-2-0.c. _delay_us(1 or 5) will be enough for this.If you don't have this delay you might have a false reading of port.Though I'm not sure theory behind this :)

>alaricljsYes, but most of the scancodes are standardized HEX Interruption values that the OS decide in your favorite encoding. Most of the scan codes conform with the ISO/IEC 9995 standard. That Is why ask if you like to have another to minimize/optimize in the software overhead that UTF8 is.

>alaricljsYes, but most of the scancodes are standardized HEX Interruption values that the OS decide in your favorite encoding. Most of the scan codes conform with the ISO/IEC 9995 standard. That Is why ask if you like to have another to minimize/optimize in the software overhead that UTF8 is.

Still unsure of what you're talking about. The scancode for each key is completely customizable at the hardware level by you, the end user.

If you use port F you might want to check JTAGEN fuse bit and JTD bit of MCUCR. This JTAG configuration can prevent from operation of port F. Default fuse bit setting of Teensy makes JTAGEN fuse unprogrammed, so you won't have this program, though, I think you still should check this to make sure. See datasheet for detail.I'd like to recommend you try this code in init function:

And another one, you may want to add small delay between port setting and reading port while matrix scanning. I think you can have delay in _update_rows() in teensy-2-0.c. _delay_us(1 or 5) will be enough for this.If you don't have this delay you might have a false reading of port.Though I'm not sure theory behind this :)

Thanks a lot hasu!!! I have added a _delay_us(1) in the _update_rows() and everything register correctly now!

Thanks from me too hasu! And PrinsValium. And thanks DOX for trying it out and getting it working. Changes now in the repo, and updated .hex on github (http://'https://github.com/benblazak/ergodox-firmware/downloads') (and I deleted the bad one). I put the `_delay_us(1)` at the end of the `teensypin_write()` macro.

DOX: I also made a fn layer for you. I feel like it's a mess (more than the current top layer), but it has the function keys, along with a few random symbols. It's activated by holding down the lowermost of the 3 inside keys on either side of the board. Here's a link to the layout file (http://'https://github.com/benblazak/ergodox-firmware/blob/dev/src/keyboard/ergodox/layout/qwerty.c') (it's only on the 'dev' branch for now) for convenience.

And I'm excited that it's usable and in use now too!

bebuxe: A USB keyboard in boot mode sends scancodes from the HID usage page 0x07 (which I made into a header file (http://'https://github.com/benblazak/ergodox-firmware/blob/dev/src/lib/usb/usage-page/keyboard.h'), if you'd like to see it), if I'm remembering my terms correctly. There's also a usage page corresponding to UTF-8, but I'm not sure if it can be used by keyboards.

Also, remapping at this point is only possible by modifying the firmware, recompiling, and re-flashing. Good news is, I don't think this will be too hard for anyone here, especially once I get around to writing a short howto. On keyboard remapping is being considered (but only once everything else is done). The rest is up to the OS.

Also, remapping at this point is only possible by modifying the firmware, recompiling, and re-flashing. Good news is, I don't think this will be too hard for anyone here, especially once I get around to writing a short howto. On keyboard remapping is being considered (but only once everything else is done). The rest is up to the OS.

I wonder how easy it would be to write up a quick frontend for changing layouts? Even if it just gave you a quick graphic of what you have, then output the proper source to flash the chip with, it'd be useful (to visual people like me)

I wonder how easy it would be to write up a quick frontend for changing layouts? Even if it just gave you a quick graphic of what you have, then output the proper source to flash the chip with, it'd be useful (to visual people like me)

x2 I'm trying to get my head around the firmware and setup etc. Finding it very difficult.

I wonder how easy it would be to write up a quick frontend for changing layouts? Even if it just gave you a quick graphic of what you have, then output the proper source to flash the chip with, it'd be useful (to visual people like me)

For the windows people, I have no problem drafting up a quick app that will allow adjustments of layouts. I will probably need some help interfacing it with the back end. If you want a Linux/Unix GUI you might have to find another volunteer.

DOX, do you have a larger version of your avatar? I plan on using it for the About menu on the GUI, as well as making a .ico to use for the launcher. (Assuming you guys don't mind me writing up a front-end.)

I've been tracking this thread for a few days now, and this looks very interesting. I'm interested in 1 to 2 PCBs depending on final price. what with the need for key-switches as well, I can't afford to go in for the cases too.

With regards to simple remapping, I've just pulled down the code and winAVR [my duel boot box spends most of it's life in windows, go figure... : ( ] and it is possible to make gcc spit out a map-file, allowing us to locate the right symbol, and edit the hex file. Using this method it should be possible to distribute an "official" hex firmware and provide a utility that patches in changes to the keymap without requiring non-programmers to brave the world of C (and therefore from having to obtain and maintain tool-chains as well).I don't do user-interface programming but I can help with sorting out hex-file hacking.

Notes[skip this section if you don't want the details.]: It will be necessary to make sure enough space is allocated for as many layers as is intended to be supported. It may also be necessary to clearly define which other symbols specify layer-shift keys.

To get the symbol map, add the following to LDFLAGS in the makefile: -Xlinker -Map=firmware.mapAn example of the relevent section:

.progmem.data 0x000000ac 0x348 keyboard/ergodox/layout/qwerty.o 0x000002a4 _kb_layout_release 0x00000154 _kb_layout_press 0x000000ac _kb_layoutFrom firmware.hex::1000A0002EC200002CC200002AC20000E4E64B2849we want 00ac, this starts at 00a0, so the relevent chunk of this line is E4 E6 4B 28, the first four keys in the map:KEY_RightControl; KEY_RightAlt; KEY_PageUp; KEY_ReturnEnter.matrix.h specifies these as being { k00,k01,k02,k03, which ties up nicely with the right-hand thumb keys in the layer macro above and the matching qwerty keymap.Note that when replacing this lign in the hex-file, the first part needs to be written back unchanged and the last two chars are a checksum that will need updating for any changes.

Still to determine: Does the teensy loader check any additional checksums? It isn't obvious from the map alone...

Can you give some details as to how you'd go from the modified hex file to re-flashing the firmware for the KB? It wouldn't be hard to have a separate "user" configuration hex file that could replace the default (with a restore option of course), what seems to be hard to do from the UI perspective is forcing the firmware to update. From a windows perspective, I wouldn't look forward to having to invoke a compile on the user's machines. Thoughts?

It appears that there is a command-line version of the teensy loader here: http://pjrc.com/teensy/loader_cli.htmlThe point of directly modifying the hex file is that you don't have to do a compile, you've just "hacked" the result of the compile (the hex file) to have the keymap you want in it.

I imagine that the utility would ship with the Teensy cli loader and a firmware version (.hex and .map or with the key details from the map hard-coded) which would then be used to either restore default or as the base to generate a custom firmware from.

It looks like you are right on all accounts. I'll make sure to package up the teensy CLI with the GUI. This will be on my TODO this evening after work. I am concerned there won't really be a way for me to test whether or not the process works without a controller handy but oh well. I'll have to rely on the Dox et al. to do the testing.

Modifying the hex is a good idea. The only complication I can see is that layer switching is done by putting a different function for that key's location in the `_kb_layout_press` and `_kb_layout_release` matricies (see qwerty.c (http://'https://github.com/benblazak/ergodox-firmware/blob/dev/src/keyboard/ergodox/layout/qwerty.c') in 'dev' for an example).

Allocating enough space for all the layers you want should only mean changing the value of `KB_LAYERS` in qwerty.h (http://'https://github.com/benblazak/ergodox-firmware/blob/dev/src/keyboard/ergodox/layout/qwerty.h') before compile. Unused layers won't confuse anything.

For anyone trying to understand the layout, take a look at:

- qwerty.h (http://'https://github.com/benblazak/ergodox-firmware/blob/dev/src/keyboard/ergodox/layout/qwerty.h') for the macro defining the number of layers, and the mapping from physical LED position to the meaning of the LEDs - qwerty.c (http://'https://github.com/benblazak/ergodox-firmware/blob/dev/src/keyboard/ergodox/layout/qwerty.c') for the keycodes, key press functions, and key release functions assigned to each physical key position - and usb/usage-page/keyboard--short-names.h (http://'https://github.com/benblazak/ergodox-firmware/blob/dev/src/lib/usb/usage-page/keyboard--short-names.h') for all availble keycodes (or usb/usage-page/keyboard.h (http://'https://github.com/benblazak/ergodox-firmware/blob/dev/src/lib/usb/usage-page/keyboard.h') for the actual hex codes)

Those three files should contain everything you need. If you want more information, you can look at:

- matrix.h (http://'https://github.com/benblazak/ergodox-firmware/blob/dev/src/keyboard/ergodox/matrix.h') for a more thorough description of the `LAYER()` macro used in 'qwerty.c', and what it's doing - and if you really want to get into it, key-functions.c (http://'https://github.com/benblazak/ergodox-firmware/blob/dev/src/lib/key-functions.c') is where the functions called for each key(press|release) are defined; you might have to poke through the PJRC USB code (in src/lib-other/...) to understand parts though

My thinking is that when you switch layers, the keyboard is using a different section of the compiled .hex to do the mapping. Therfore I would expect that we should still be able to directly hack our way through the compiled .hex to alter the key-mappings for each layer.

Going the GUI route would mean we might have to make some sacrifices if we choose not to recompile the firmware. My plan is to only offer the number of layers officially coded into the firmware source, so that would be 2 right now. However, if a user really wants more layers, then they can always edit the default.hex by replacing it with one of their own or by compiling the source.

effh,

I am concerned about the checksum issue. Are you sure that the teensy will refuse to accept updates if a modification is made to the .hex without generating new checksums? If that's the case we probably won't have any choice but to force a compile of the firmware source.

DOX, do you have a larger version of your avatar? I plan on using it for the About menu on the GUI, as well as making a .ico to use for the launcher. (Assuming you guys don't mind me writing up a front-end.)

ic07, I think there is a bug with the fn layer. I used the prototype all day at work and sometimes, the fn layer becomes inaccessible after some use. Otherwise, everything went well. With the thumb keys a bit closer, it will be perfect! I already prefer it to the kinesis. With the flat shape, it gives me more freedom when I need it and the ability to place each hand in the optimal position is really great.

No, I'm not that concerned about there being an aditional checksum, that would be an extra-work feature that would have required cooperation between teensy and winAVR or an extra added by ic07 (which hasn't been mentioned, so hasn't happened.) so it is a low probability.With regards to switching sections of the compiled hex, all layers have been implemented as part of the same array and are contiguous.

The map I have here was built off of the dev tree and states that _kb_layout starts at 0x00ac, the next symbol being at 0x0154. that is 168 bytes.The layer macro defines 84 bytes of data per layer, 168/84 is 2. Coincidentally, thats the number of layers currently in the dev-branch, so we've found all the keymap definitions. (though I've not fully explained to my satisfaction _kb_layout_press and _kb_layout_release. erg. Now I have. _kb_layout is of type uint8_t, the other two is of type kbfun_funptr_t (pointer to function). effective but fun to handle. Examination shows repetition at 16-bit intervals. But not of a sequence that ties up to the map's definition of the functions I was expecting. I'll do some more digging later when it isn't approching 0100.Update: The value stored in the press and release tables is the "word address" of the function in flash, while the map has the "byte address". the byte address from the map divided by 2 gives the value in the table. Note that the avr is a little endian device, so an address of 0x0b7e divided by two is 0x05bf and would appear in the .hex as bf05.

Summary: #1: Don't worry about checksums, we'll cross that bridge if we meet it. #2: We also know now where all the keymapping is, even if we don't know the right values for the press and release functions yet.#3: Values of positions will change on each compile, so if we can work out how to extract the values programatically from the map, that would be best.

ic07,

The definition of the Layer macro is the fundamental mapping of what keys are where in the array, so that is going to be critical : )So far, so good.

Thanks for the clarification. I am working on the prototype GUI right now. I have all 76 buttons created, but have yet to implement the back end. Obviously that will take the longest to do, as I still don't really have a grasp as to how the firmware is going to work. For anyone interested I have forked off the git and made a UI branch. It is a WinForms project (It's just too easy for this kind of thing. Might upgrade to WPF later) in C#. I make a pull request later this evening. No ETA as of yet on how long this UI project will take, I presume there is at least a little time before we have a fully assembled prototype in Dox's Hands.

If we can agree a simple (that means not xml) file interchange format, I can probably do a cut of code (c++ as for cross-platform usage and reduced writing time) that would modify the map in a hex-file/map pair.I'm thinking something like:

:_kb_layout{lf}ababababababababababababababab{lf}:_kb_layout_press{lf}111111121111113111111411111{lf}:_kb_layout_release{lf}111111121111113111111411111{lf}where ab is a byte represented in ascii, 1 2 3 and 4 are press, release, layer increment and layer decrement and {lf} is a linefeed character (0x0a in the table)I can also set up options to allow getting the number of layers in the map from the map. (based on size of allocation.)

ic07, I think there is a bug with the fn layer. I used the prototype all day at work and sometimes, the fn layer becomes inaccessible after some use.

I looked at the logic again last night, and it still looks right to me... Do you have any ideas? Or at least, in laborious detail, what exactly's happening (maybe this calls for a PM) lol :) . Sorry you have to help debugging stuff I wrote, but I can't think of a way to test it myself... :/ . If *any* keys are registering, those should be working too... I suppose, worst case, I can try to start rewriting the thing next week.

I looked at the logic again last night, and it still looks right to me... Do you have any ideas? Or at least, in laborious detail, what exactly's happening (maybe this calls for a PM) lol :) . Sorry you have to help debugging stuff I wrote, but I can't think of a way to test it myself... :/ . If *any* keys are registering, those should be working too... I suppose, worst case, I can try to start rewriting the thing next week.

ic07,

It would be helpful if we can keep changes to the backend to a minimum (outside of bug fixes like this), since effh & I will be relying on consistency there to create a usable GUI. Though we'll be hacking the compiled hex directly, it would be nice to be able to know that recompilation we do will give us consistent results. I am having a hard time following what's going on in main.c, in the innermost for loop. Where do you specify a switching between layers?

It would be helpful if we can keep changes to the backend to a minimum (outside of bug fixes like this), since effh & I will be relying on consistency there to create a usable GUI. Though we'll be hacking the compiled hex directly, it would be nice to be able to know that recompilation we do will give us consistent results. I am having a hard time following what's going on in main.c, in the innermost for loop. Where do you specify a switching between layers?

Cheers,

I'm going to have to counter that. For starters, I suspect a couple of changes will be necessary to support 3+ layers.

ic07, Make any changes you need/want to make, just keep the layout in a nice sensible array/set of arrays in "progmem". (I need to look up the details of that sometime : )

At some point, it would make OrangeJewce's life easier if one of us could detail the order of keys in the array when expressed as flat memory, as that is the order I'll be needing the data in to in-fill the hex file.

To reiterate: so-long as _kb_layout, _kb_layout_press and _kb_layout_release don't change their definitions (and the functions used in _kb_layout_ don't change name and number), and that a map file has been built along with the hex file, what I have in mind should continue to work. Changes to those will require some degree of rework and thus notification of changes to them would be appreciated. Generic Solutions for the win : )

I am having a hard time following what's going on in main.c, in the innermost for loop. Where do you specify a switching between layers?

The innermost loop in main.c is *only* responsible for calling the appropriate function (assigned to each key in the layout matrices, and defined in lib/key-functions.c), and then calling usb_keyboard_send() if necessary. Everything else is done by the key function - so layer switching (changing the value of the current_layer variable at the top of the outer main() loop) is actually done in lib/key-functions.c::kbfun_layer_inc() and lib/key-functions.c::kbfun_layer_dec().

Quote from: OrangeJewce;608058

follow up: main.c is missing an include in the repo: . Can you add that?

is part of avr-libc. And the #include is in main.c in every branch I checked (though, I did forget it a few commits ago, when I committed -> pushed without trying to compile first - which wasn't very smart of me, lol).

Quote from: effh;608373

ic07, Make any changes you need/want to make, just keep the layout in a nice sensible array/set of arrays in "progmem". (I need to look up the details of that sometime : )

:) . I don't anticipate changing how the _kb_layout* matrices are defined unless I really really (really) have to. And the kbfun_*() functions used in _kb_layout_ shouldn't be changing much either (though, I'm not sure what you mean by "name and number"; but their names shouldn't change, and I won't remove any). I'll do my best to let you guys know if I start messing with stuff that I think might affect you.

As a side note, having the layout matrices in PROGMEM is not guaranteed by the current design (it's the default, but it can be changed per layout). I'm not planning to put any anywhere else though, since RAM only has enough space for ~2 layers IIRC, the EEPROM is even smaller, and the extra time/code it takes to have stuff in PROGMEM appears to be inconsequential.

The ultimate goal will be that when people get the keyboard, they will have access to our open source UI and firmware, which will allow them to use either the default QWerty / ic07 layout or any other layout of their choice (the software will automatically do any compiling and hardware flashing necessary). The UI will be Windows only, XP and above. If you're running linux, you'll have to manually edit the firmware, compile it, and flash the teensy 2.0 controller manually.

Mouse buttons won't be a part of the software as far as I know. I am not sure how the Teensy would handle this, seems to me it would almost have to register as two pieces of hardware to achieve. As far as we know, at the very least 2 layers will be available to the end users. A default and function layer. If you'd like to know what the default currently is, I point you to the source, or to sit tight until I can make a prototype UI available which will allow the designing of any custom layout of your choice. Let me know if you have any questions as I would be glad to help!

I'm definitely interested in getting one of these, ideally with a price lower than about $300.

I know I'm very new around here, but I potentially could provide a soldering service for 2-3 Europe based people (sending to the UK and back from outside of Europe would cost a fortune in custom's fees). I'll be extremely busy around April to early June of 2013 due to the last exams of my degree, but I will otherwise have sufficient time.

I noticed someone mentioned in the Phantom thread about needing PCB designers. On that note, electronics is a major hobby of mine: I have some experience with PCB design. For this reason I'd be interested in helping design the PCB, but preferably working with someone who can check things I'm working on occasionally, I'm not confident about avoiding mistakes (I'm a physics undergrad, not an electronics engineer!). I do have a bench supply, breadboard, etc though, so I can test layouts I design.

I'm interested in learning how to do some keymap-making or key layout changing. Is there some sort of documentation on how to do this:

Not yet, unless you're comfortable with C and have time for a bit of reading. I can post links to the relevant files again if you like. But since OrangeJewce and effh are going to make a GUI, I'd recommend waiting for that. I'm sure it'll be more fun to use, in any case :) .

- Function layers are being debugged. Once done, I'm sure the GUI will make them easy to work with.- Mouse buttons are in progress, but depend on my eventual comprehension of certain things about USB... I'm trying!- Hitting both shifts to activate capslock is a good idea. I'll see what I can do after layers work right. It /shouldn't/ be too hard.

Quote from: OrangeJewce;608836

Mouse buttons won't be a part of the software as far as I know. I am not sure how the Teensy would handle this, seems to me it would almost have to register as two pieces of hardware to achieve.

It will basically be pretending to be two devices, if I succeed in implementing it. It's not an uncommon thing though - IIRC, several custom firmwares around geekhack have this feature (hasu's included) - I just need to figure out how to do it myself.

Quote from: OrangeJewce;608836

As far as we know, at the very least 2 layers will be available to the end users. A default and function layer.

Would more be useful? I did the math just now, and I think there's room in flash for ~60 layers... lol. And having extra allocated won't hurt. How many do you think would be good?

An option you might want to look into is having layer lock key combos. This way you could hit Fn-1 (or something similar) and it would switch to the 'qwerty' layer as the default until another layer lock is used. This way a user could have several alternate layouts like dvorak and colemak at a simple key combo press.

Not yet, unless you're comfortable with C and have time for a bit of reading. I can post links to the relevant files again if you like. But since OrangeJewce and effh are going to make a GUI, I'd recommend waiting for that. I'm sure it'll be more fun to use, in any case :) .

- Function layers are being debugged. Once done, I'm sure the GUI will make them easy to work with.- Mouse buttons are in progress, but depend on my eventual comprehension of certain things about USB... I'm trying!- Hitting both shifts to activate capslock is a good idea. I'll see what I can do after layers work right. It /shouldn't/ be too hard.

I would strongly suggest just waiting it out unless someone else wants to get adventurous with compiling firmware. I haven't heard from effh in a while regarding the UI backend, so I might begin implementing part of it myself over the weekend. We'll just have to see how much time I have, or if he gets back to me. :thumb:

Quote from: ic07;609575

It will basically be pretending to be two devices, if I succeed in implementing it. It's not an uncommon thing though - IIRC, several custom firmwares around geekhack have this feature (hasu's included) - I just need to figure out how to do it myself.

Alright so it would behave exactly as I thought. I didn't really think it was impossible, only that it couldn't be done with the controller registering itself as a single piece of hardware. There has been reports of by doing multiple registration, one loses correct functionality on a mac. This might need investigating if you manage to get mouse buttons implemented. I'm not sure how high up the ticket totem pole it is anyways.

Quote from: ic07;609575

Would more be useful? I did the math just now, and I think there's room in flash for ~60 layers... lol. And having extra allocated won't hurt. How many do you think would be good?

I think people would like at least 3, up to (I could imagine) 6,

Qwerty+F'nDvorak+F'n/customColemak+F'n/custom

I guess people might want more than that, but really it'd be a stretch for phase 1. The great thing is that I plan on having an export feature (might not be on release but I'm going to try), which will allow the community to share their layouts, and it will be modular because the UI will be able to flash the controller with just the .hex file.

Either way I'm still very excited about this project and look forward to delivering something at least usable by the community for creating, sharing, and distributing any layout they can possibly think of.

I'd say we should have support for 4 layers, to accommodate practitioners of NEO.I'd have:DvorakQWERTYFunctionSpecialas my layers (special would be a testing layout, if I want to update Dvorak some, or overflow from function) I will want to have some combination of QWERTY and dvorak, so if the computer is expecting dvorak or qwerty, I can use a layer to match.

One thing about layers that I am afraid many might be missing is that the harware "layers" is not the full story. The keyboard still only sends a combination of keys. There are no actual functions associated wit what the keys do in the OS. That is all up to the OS to decide. If i want for example my '1'-key to be the '&'-key on another layer that will not be the same as defining say 'SHIFT'+'1' as '&', it will not be the shift layer. That layer would be a shifted layer where the '7'-key on a layer with 'SHIFT' activated. Since it is the OS that usually handles layers it is a bit backwards to do it in the firmware. There are of course workarounds.

On the Kinesis you can remap any key to do whatever any other key does. For example the switch the location of '1' and '&', and also program macro keys. The way I understand that they handle this is by defining every keypress as a keycode along with the modifier keys used for that particular key. That is every key is defined as a tuple of keycodes that are used simultaneously. If the '1'-key is set to be a '&'-key, the keyboard woll briefly send 'SHIFT'+'7' when the '1'-key is pressed. This works, but is a lot more tedious than I think everyone here is aware of =)

This is not the full story either... say I want a layer on my keyboard where the 'A'-key is an 'α'-key (alpha), Alpha is not even in the OS keymapping, no combination of keypresses will be able to produce it.

All this may be possible to solve installing other drivers or something, but that I know nothing about, and also that wouldn't be very pretty at all...

Actually, the kinesis remaps entire keys. You can map 7 to 1 or 1 to 7 (dragging along the ! and & when shifted) but you cannot map 1 to & or 7 to ! or 1 to ! for that matter.Macros can contain any letters, modifiers, and symbols, but key remapping is for entire keys.

Ok, I didn't really know. I only remember seeing the Kinesis at work sending modified keys in a keyboard testing program where the keys light up, and the shift key was coming on and off a lot =)

My own belief is that layers are best handled with custom character mappings on the OS side. This gives rise to the same portability issues as (potentially) having custom drivers.

My Linux workaround when I get around to implement it would be to have a complete keyboard mapping typed out into a terminal by some keypress combo. Could just be a heap of "xmodmap"-commandos or an actual xkb-file with all the bells and whistles. Keyboard mapping is a complete mess in Linux in my opinion.. Other OSs I don't really know about.

One thing about layers that I am afraid many might be missing is that the harware "layers" is not the full story. The keyboard still only sends a combination of keys. There are no actual functions associated wit what the keys do in the OS. That is all up to the OS to decide. If i want for example my '1'-key to be the '&'-key on another layer that will not be the same as defining say 'SHIFT'+'1' as '&', it will not be the shift layer. That layer would be a shifted layer where the '7'-key on a layer with 'SHIFT' activated. Since it is the OS that usually handles layers it is a bit backwards to do it in the firmware. There are of course workarounds.

We choose to alter the microcontroller because it's easier to do, and it works. Otherwise we'd need to craft OS specific drivers (not likely to happen).

Quote from: PrinsValium;609612

On the Kinesis you can remap any key to do whatever any other key does. For example the switch the location of '1' and '&', and also program macro keys. The way I understand that they handle this is by defining every keypress as a keycode along with the modifier keys used for that particular key. That is every key is defined as a tuple of keycodes that are used simultaneously. If the '1'-key is set to be a '&'-key, the keyboard woll briefly send 'SHIFT'+'7' when the '1'-key is pressed. This works, but is a lot more tedious than I think everyone here is aware of =)

This is not the full story either... say I want a layer on my keyboard where the 'A'-key is an 'α'-key (alpha), Alpha is not even in the OS keymapping, no combination of keypresses will be able to produce it.

All this may be possible to solve installing other drivers or something, but that I know nothing about, and also that wouldn't be very pretty at all...

My understanding is the Kinesis allows on the fly hardware mapping outside of the OS. Afaik, has no handle in how the keymap is stored, altered, or saved with regards to the onboard memory of the Kinesis' microcontroller. My guess is its memory is addressable and maybe they use some form of pointer system (pure speculation), and so you can shift around the addressing of the keys directly. Unfortunately for us to implement a feature similar to this would most likely consume much of the available memory on our controller and severely limit the number of layers, with limited additional benefit over a UI.

Also it may or may not take more development time than we currently have, but I defer to ic07 on this issue, since he's doing all the low level work.

We choose to alter the microcontroller because it's easier to do, and it works. Otherwise we'd need to craft OS specific drivers (not likely to happen).

My point still stands. There are more and less unsolvable layout issues working with the keyboard side alone.

Quote from: OrangeJewce;609718

My understanding is the Kinesis allows on the fly hardware mapping outside of the OS. Afaik, has no handle in how the keymap is stored, altered, or saved with regards to the onboard memory of the Kinesis' microcontroller. My guess is its memory is addressable and maybe they use some form of pointer system (pure speculation), and so you can shift around the addressing of the keys directly. Unfortunately for us to implement a feature similar to this would most likely consume much of the available memory on our controller and severely limit the number of layers, with limited additional benefit over a UI.

Also it may or may not take more development time than we currently have, but I defer to ic07 on this issue, since he's doing all the low level work.

There is 1kB of EEPROM memory where the firmware can save settings from time to time. That is a lot of layouts.. Keycodes are only 1 byte, pointer probably the same. As Sordna said the Kinesis only supports swapping keys, not really remapping individual "characters". A key swapping function should be fairly straight forward to implement...

No need to have the firmware "finished" before the physical product is finalized. The prototype is a perfectly well functioning keyboard (ok there may possibly be some bugs). The Teensy is infinitely re-programmable, and this is easily done as well. You will have forever to improve upon the firmware.

My point still stands. There are more and less unsolvable layout issues working with the keyboard side alone.

I guess I don't understand then exactly what your point is, so I apologize. The design decision was made to work from the keyboard end to ensure compatibility with any OS, because that would mean doing a single implementation as opposed to many. There are always going to be pros and cons to any design decision.

There really isn't such a thing as "Finished" in programming, as one can always improve it. However, the firmware should be stable and have some basic features that are cornerstones of why we are undergoing this project. Remapping is one of those features. However, we shouldn't get into an argument about coding methodology here, I don't feel this is the right place.

If you would like to draft up drivers for Windows or any of the other OSes we'd be more than happy to see what it is you come up with. The more the merrier :thumb:.

For those wishing to play with the windows side of keyboard-layouts, I found this utility belonging to microsoft.

http://msdn.microsoft.com/en-us/goglobal/bb964665.aspx

I've not done more than download it yet, but I'm looking to cure my caps-lock problem.....: )

Update: Okay, so that is the next best thing to useless - for some reason, some specific keys can not be changed... like caps-lock. I note that this utility does allow you to specify alternate shift mappings, so combined with changing the actual keyboard firmware may form part of a complete solution.

The resale value of the ergodox is likely to be close to the final price.

If you buy the Kinesis first, you will probably miss out on the ergodox. If you buy the ergodox, you'll have the option of the Kinesis later.

Good point; my impression was that the resale price of the Kinesis is reaaaally bad. Neither here nor on deskthority are people particulary interested in those. And eBay is even worse. Last Kinesis went for 25% of its original price. :(

Good point; my impression was that the resale price of the Kinesis is reaaaally bad. Neither here nor on deskthority are people particulary interested in those. And eBay is even worse. Last Kinesis went for 25% of its original price. :(

The ErgoDox will be a really unique, and most likely will be a rare piece of hardware. For that reason alone you can expect it to retain value well.

I guess I don't understand then exactly what your point is, so I apologize. The design decision was made to work from the keyboard end to ensure compatibility with any OS, because that would mean doing a single implementation as opposed to many. There are always going to be pros and cons to any design decision.

I've explained as well as I think I am able to. I'm only trying to warn you to not try to solve an unsolvable problem. The limitations that come with working from the keyboard side alone may or may not apply to your needs. I'm just saying that everything cannot be done that way.

Quote from: OrangeJewce;609869

If you would like to draft up drivers for Windows or any of the other OSes we'd be more than happy to see what it is you come up with. The more the merrier :thumb:.Cheers,

If I had any idea how to do it, I probably wouldn't be that crazy.

My point is that keymappings on the OS side solves all but the portability issues. It would have been easier if keyboards were designed to send unicode characters or something similar, and the OS would handle only the conversion if another map than the physical one on the keyboard was required. There are of course good reasons to why it is the way it is as well.

I know how to do keyboard mappings in Ubuntu (sort of). It is insanely messy for such a simple thing but it works and it solves most problems much more nicely.

Edit: Ok, most problems might be an exaggeration, but there are a lot more options altering the OS key mapping. And I also wanted to add that there already is layer support in the firmware if I understand correctly. It might just not be completely bug free.

Good point; my impression was that the resale price of the Kinesis is reaaaally bad. Neither here nor on deskthority are people particulary interested in those. And eBay is even worse. Last Kinesis went for 25% of its original price. :(

There you go then. Get the Kinesis board from here or ebay and then get the ergodox in this group buy.

An option you might want to look into is having layer lock key combos. This way you could hit Fn-1 (or something similar) and it would switch to the 'qwerty' layer as the default until another layer lock is used. This way a user could have several alternate layouts like dvorak and colemak at a simple key combo press.

Layer lock key combos are a good idea, and would be easy to put on a key in a function layer. I'll plan to add that capability in a bit. Thanks!

Quote from: OrangeJewce;609584

I think people would like at least 3, up to (I could imagine) 6

Quote from: dorkvader;609602

I'd say we should have support for 4 layers, to accommodate practitioners of NEO.

Mmkay. Thanks :) . I think I'll allocate 10 then, by default, just to have a nice round number. Having extra shall not hurt.

Quote from: OrangeJewce;609718

My understanding is the Kinesis allows on the fly hardware mapping outside of the OS....Also it may or may not take more development time than we currently have, but I defer to ic07 on this issue, since he's doing all the low level work.

Quote from: PrinsValium;609822

There is 1kB of EEPROM memory where the firmware can save settings from time to time. That is a lot of layouts.. Keycodes are only 1 byte, pointer probably the same. As Sordna said the Kinesis only supports swapping keys, not really remapping individual "characters". A key swapping function should be fairly straight forward to implement...

It would be possible to implement Kinesis like remapping, but it involves tradeoffs that, the more I think about them, the less I want to make them. A complete layer (keycode + two function pointers for a 12x7 matrix, function pointers being 16 bit) is 420 bytes, which means the EEPROM could actually only hold two. We could limit special functions from maps with that capability, and store only the keycodes in the EEPROM, or I could devise a method for only storing changed layout info there; or we could limit the number of layers to two. But I don't really like the idea of doing any of that for such an (IMO) limited gain in functionality. I'm open to reconsider though, if I find that there's really enough interest.

Quote from: Salisen;609782

How are you looking to switch between layers?

From the keyboard's point of view, I mean. My QPAD changes the backlighting brightness by holding fn and pressing one of two other keys. Could also use some sort of 3-4 way DIP switch on the PCB.

We're switching layers using keypresses (fn/layer keys). Layer lock key combos are planned (thanks to alaricljs for the suggestion). If anyone wants to change the keyboard's default/startup layer though, they'll have to reflash the controller (but that should be easy enough, especially on Windows once OrangeJewce and effh are done with their UI).

Quote from: PrinsValium;610342

My point is that keymappings on the OS side solves all but the portability issues.

It doesn't though. Remapping any of the 'lock' keys, for instance, is hard to do OS side. But I understand what you're saying about limitations. Personally, I'm going to use both methods (OS remapping for Greek characters and OS functions, firmware for everything else).

It would be possible to implement Kinesis like remapping, but it involves tradeoffs that, the more I think about them, the less I want to make them. A complete layer (keycode + two function pointers for a 12x7 matrix, function pointers being 16 bit) is 420 bytes, which means the EEPROM could actually only hold two. We could limit special functions from maps with that capability, and store only the keycodes in the EEPROM, or I could devise a method for only storing changed layout info there; or we could limit the number of layers to two. But I don't really like the idea of doing any of that for such an (IMO) limited gain in functionality. I'm open to reconsider though, if I find that there's really enough interest.

Store a backup of the "standard" 12x7 layout array, after that there should be room for perhaps 11 more copies of this that can be modified any way required. The base array could be stored in flash memory as well. That would give room for another one as well as protect it from corruption =) I don't know if on the fly remappings like on the Kinesis is very useful when you can program the keyboard anyway you like anyhow. Storing macros in the EEPROM sounds more interesting to me. I envision those as linked lists of (key, modifiers, next pointer)-triplets. Each list item would take 4 bytes if pointers are 2 bytes.

Quote from: ic07;610998

It doesn't though. Remapping any of the 'lock' keys, for instance, is hard to do OS side. But I understand what you're saying about limitations. Personally, I'm going to use both methods (OS remapping for Greek characters and OS functions, firmware for everything else).

Of course you are correct. Things the OS doesn't need to know about is best kept in the dark =) I should have said that "character mapping" problems are best solved on the OS side. Once again macros might be the solution I'm actually looking for. Do I want to type 'λ' or really just "\lambda"? =D

There is also a micro SD-card adapter (http://pjrc.com/store/sd_adaptor.html) for the Teensys. Imagine GBs of data... I had plans to use one as a keylogger on my own keyboard. I haven't been experimenting any with it, but there are adapters in my home built boards.

Storing macros in the EEPROM sounds more interesting to me. I envision those as linked lists of (key, modifiers, next pointer)-triplets. Each list item would take 4 bytes if pointers are 2 bytes.

Hmm, I hadn't been thinking about macros; and I would think those were easier to do in the OS (or.. I use gvim, so that's where mine are). Still interesting though, maybe I'll think about them again sometime when I'm not so tired :) . Would you prefer them in firmware? If so, why?

[/HR]

DOX:Updated firmware in 'dev'! And new .hex posted. Hopefully those layer switching problems are gone now... please let me know if you test it. It seemed to be working properly in my cursory little breadboard test.

OJ, effh:I touched lib/key-functions* a bit, but I didn't change any function names (or get around to adding any yet). Most of the layer logic that changed was in main(), and I can't recall doing anything that would effect you guys.

And I think that's it. I'm tired, coz it's really late o_o , but I wanted to get the modified layer code out as soon as I could, in case DOX was waiting for it.

There is also a micro SD-card adapter (http://pjrc.com/store/sd_adaptor.html) for the Teensys. Imagine GBs of data... I had plans to use one as a keylogger on my own keyboard. I haven't been experimenting any with it, but there are adapters in my home built boards.

Hmm, interesting! This would also guarantee I'd never be able to take it into work and use it, though. In a similar vein, are there any good programs (linux or windows) that track how many keystrokes you've done? Sort of a mouse odometer for the keyboard. Peel free to PM me so as not to get too far off topic if you must.

Also< I'd lay that macro-functionality would probably be pretty useful. I can imagine using it for a number of things.

...Of course you are correct. Things the OS doesn't need to know about is best kept in the dark =) I should have said that "character mapping" problems are best solved on the OS side. Once again macros might be the solution I'm actually looking for. Do I want to type 'λ' or really just "\lambda"? =D...

Quote from: ic07;611126

Hmm, I hadn't been thinking about macros; and I would think those were easier to do in the OS (or.. I use gvim, so that's where mine are). Still interesting though, maybe I'll think about them again sometime when I'm not so tired :) . Would you prefer them in firmware? If so, why?...

Quote from: dorkvader;611178

Hmm, interesting! This would also guarantee I'd never be able to take it into work and use it, though. In a similar vein, are there any good programs (linux or windows) that track how many keystrokes you've done? Sort of a mouse odometer for the keyboard. Peel free to PM me so as not to get too far off topic if you must.

Also< I'd lay that macro-functionality would probably be pretty useful. I can imagine using it for a number of things.

I have to agree with the above, Dork, the OS is much better suited for macro handling than the firmware. I still disagree with Prins' assertion that the OS is better for handling character mappings than the KB when you're working with a non-standard layout, but it's a dead horse at this point. But hey, if macros make it into the firmware at some point (maybe after initial release?) that would be fantastic.

No updates yet on the GUI, I plan on putting in some hours this week to see if I can get a "Shell" of it working by the weekend.

A friend who has both a Kinesis and one of my Teensy keyboards wrote his own basic macro functionality for the latter. I know he uses it for some things, but not really exactly what. I know I myself often do repetetive things on the keyboard. I should probably do them in smarter ways to start with. But some basic macro functionality is a good start to not learn to do things right =)

Putting the macro functionality on the OS side once again screws up portability.. My vim-fu is very faint. I guess emacs does macros too, I just haven't learned. But they could be useful in other contexts as well.

The same friend as above also use a keylogger (in the OS though) to collect statistics of keypresses. He says it never seizes to be disturbing to see his passwords in clear text =D There should be plenty of keylogger available from fishy corners of the net. Search for key logging and take the plunge...

Quote from: OrangeJewce;611203

I still disagree with Prins' assertion that the OS is better for handling character mappings than the KB when you're working with a non-standard layout, but it's a dead horse at this point.

I'm not going to argue too much about this. But there are limitations you just can't get around. Getting characters that are not in the map the OS is set to for one is next to impossible (macro alt-codes might solve that though...). Moving characters between layers of different "shift-depth" will get pretty messy and involve sending shift/alt-combos even when they could be unwanted. But hey, I don't really care =)

Edit: Function keys and an embedded numpad would be things best handled as layers in firmware. But that much I think we all agree about.

About macros, now that I've slept, I can see there being times where i'd like to have them in firmware. How to implement, and whether or not I feel they're justified (personally), I'm not sure yet. I've opened an issue (http://'https://github.com/benblazak/ergodox-firmware/issues/10') on github, if anyone's concerned... :) or discussion can continue here of course.

In that case, I would like to register my interest as well!Speaking of, which time frame are we looking at at this point? A couple of months, a year ... ?

I wouldn't be able to afford in the next two or three months, but later in the year, I'd most likely have the finances to cover it.

I've been thinking, not sure whether this has been discussed previously, as I haven't followed the thread the whole way through, will we be able to use either side of the board independently of the other? I could see myself / others wanting to use it as a gaming pad, without having to necessarily have both sides on the desk.

No. Only the right side may be used independently of the other, or at least that is the way it is being designed right now. For the left side to be active, it must be connected to the right side via TRRS cable. The reason for this is that it was decided early on by Dox, I think, that only one controller would be used, which means that one of the halves had to be chosen as the 'host' half, so to speak.

In that case, I would like to register my interest as well!Speaking of, which time frame are we looking at at this point? A couple of months, a year ... ?

I wouldn't be able to afford in the next two or three months, but later in the year, I'd most likely have the finances to cover it.

I've been thinking, not sure whether this has been discussed previously, as I haven't followed the thread the whole way through, will we be able to use either side of the board independently of the other? I could see myself / others wanting to use it as a gaming pad, without having to necessarily have both sides on the desk.

Dox had suggested that the case prototype should be arriving shortly. I am not sure if there will be a second round of PCB prototypes (move thumb keys), after that there isn't really a huge amount of work left from the hardware side. I would say it is looking like it will be in the next 2-3 months as opposed to 6-8. Maybe Dox can chime in here.

No. Only the right side may be used independently of the other, or at least that is the way it is being designed right now. For the left side to be active, it must be connected to the right side via TRRS cable. The reason for this is that it was decided early on by Dox, I think, that only one controller would be used, which means that one of the halves had to be chosen as the 'host' half, so to speak.

That makes sense, although I'm slightly sad to hear the outcome, given my previous reasoning. Regardless, that alone should not be a reason to pass on something like this ^^

Quote from: OrangeJewce;611923

Dox had suggested that the case prototype should be arriving shortly. I am not sure if there will be a second round of PCB prototypes (move thumb keys), after that there isn't really a huge amount of work left from the hardware side. I would say it is looking like it will be in the next 2-3 months as opposed to 6-8. Maybe Dox can chime in here.

Cheers,

Sounds good, looking forward to seeing upcoming pics of a more finished device!

Don't forget that with sufficient desk space and a properly sized cable you just put the left half where you want it and tuck the right half out of the way (or vice versa). If you choose to do your own case you could even devise a scheme to stand that half on edge so even less desk space is needed.

I think would be possible to make both halves identical using the same PCB for both the left and right half. It looks to me like there would be enough room to fit both the Teensy as well as the other IC there on top. If the PCB was done this way it would be possible to choose to use any or both halves, and also which half the USB cable would be running to.

The controller parts from the Teensy can be bought elsewhere and surface mounted, this saves some space. The ATmega chips can be run on their internal 8MHz oscillator as well, cutting the number of required components down. I've been experimenting successfully with this today =) This requires reprogramming some fuse bits though, which in turn requires reloading the bootloader, both which requires a programmer unit... And the stock bootloader as well as the LUFA one are both 4kB.

I think would be possible to make both halves identical using the same PCB for both the left and right half. It looks to me like there would be enough room to fit both the Teensy as well as the other IC there on top. If the PCB was done this way it would be possible to choose to use any or both halves, and also which half the USB cable would be running to.

The controller parts from the Teensy can be bought elsewhere and surface mounted, this saves some space. The ATmega chips can be run on their internal 8MHz oscillator as well, cutting the number of required components down. I've been experimenting successfully with this today =) This requires reprogramming some fuse bits though, which in turn requires reloading the bootloader, both which requires a programmer unit... And the stock bootloader as well as the LUFA one are both 4kB.

This topic was discussed a long time ago and it was determined that only one controller was going to be used. But everyone is more than welcome to customize their Dox however they Feel! (I think your mod would be sick, if you ever undertake it as a project :thumb:)

This would really not change anything (other than the PCB layout). There could be separate USB controllers on either side, or one controller and a slave side (either side being the slave/master), or a single PCB could be used as a one handed keyboard of left or right hand type. This would also double the number of same design PCBs which may or may not have an impact on price. If there are huge amounts already this doesn't make too big a difference. The main problem is the possible need to use a serial programmer to set up the controller chips. This would likely have to be done by someone from here in bulk before shipping them out to people.

I'm of course more than willing to help out with what I know about chip programming, bootloaders, PCB design and all.

This would really not change anything (other than the PCB layout). There could be separate USB controllers on either side, or one controller and a slave side (either side being the slave/master), or a single PCB could be used as a one handed keyboard of left or right hand type. This would also double the number of same design PCBs which may or may not have an impact on price. If there are huge amounts already this doesn't make too big a difference. The main problem is the possible need to use a serial programmer to set up the controller chips. This would likely have to be done by someone from here in bulk before shipping them out to people.

I'm of course more than willing to help out with what I know about chip programming, bootloaders, PCB design and all.

I may have brought up having identical PCB's. The issue is that it still has to work with it "flipped". You could maybe do this with a lot of settable jumpers (like: Set to "A" for LH and "B" for RH). Also, Trace routing becomes difficult, and the cherry keyswitches are not symmetrical, so you'd need an extra hole per switch.

Then, having the possibility of chosen controller per side was discussed. This idea had much more going for it, as it's actually somewhat feasible. I don't think anyone came up with a decent plan to implement this (I think HW implementation is the best, so the controller doesn't "know" any better. Having a "master and slave" controller setup was rejected as well (Is it even possible with teensy?)

Anyway, if you come up with a good implementation for this, I don't see any reason to not include the capability.---

So other than ugly shapeways plastic, has anyone come up with a good place to make the case?

I don't think you need to do almost anything at all to get it to work flipped. But I just woke up and may not have thought this through all the way. Just mount the USB controller on one side and let the slave IC location be empty, And vise versa on the other side.

The switch is unidirectional by construction. They would be the only components needing to switch side. Through hole diodes are of course "flip symmetric" as as well (Internal diodes could still be used if they are mounted "backwards").

The flippable footprint should be no problem. Internal diode and LED holes also line up when it is flipped.

I don't think you need to do almost anything at all to get it to work flipped. But I just woke up and may not have thought this through all the way. Just mount the USB controller on one side and let the slave IC location be empty, And vise versa on the other side.

The switch is unidirectional by construction. They would be the only components needing to switch side. Through hole diodes are of course "flip symmetric" as as well (Internal diodes could still be used if they are mounted "backwards").

The flippable footprint should be no problem. Internal diode and LED holes also line up when it is flipped.

(Attachment) 52840[/ATTACH]

This sounds doable to me. It has a lot of advantages, but will require much more careful layout.

You could have a 10x10 matrix for the switches, perhaps, and seperate it into two 5x10 halves. Divert one of the matrices through the connector (would have to be 16 way) to the other side.

From each switch on the board, have traces running to the IC, and to the connector, total of 4 traces for each.

For each pin on the connector, have one trace running to the IC, and one running to the switches through an array of jumpers (you'd need 16 total, I think).

For the slave board, the jumpers would be present and an IC would not, so all IC connections would be redundant, leaving only the traces to the connector.

For the master, the jumpers would be left empty, traces would run from the IC to the set of switches on that board, and from the IC to the connector.

I don't think you'd have the option of putting the IC on either board though. On one of the two it would have to be underneath as opposed to on top, or the pins would be the wrong. The Teensy is quite tall, so you'd make the keypad unnecessarily thick.

I was thinking of using SMT components to rebuild the "Teensy". And I am pretty confident the slave IC comes in a smaller SMT package as well.. I know DOX wrote the part number somewhere but I can't seem to find it again =P

You would only need to do a regular key matrix and trace rows and columns to both the serial slave IC as well as the USB controller. Then choose which side to solder the controller/slave IC to. The traces to the other would only end up unconnected. It will look funny that the traces from the slave IC will lead to the connector, and from there down to the controller again =D There should be no need for jumpers anywhere, I think when trying to figure this out in my head...

While I think the discussion about multi-controller and symmetrical PCBs is fantastic, and these ideas sound awesome, short of Dox completely renegging on this major design decision all of these proposals are going to stay in the realm of vaporware. I just don't see him having invested in several PCB prototypes just to do an overhaul on the PCB design, and because work has begun on the case prototype, it wouldn't make sense to push the project back further. TBH I really want to see the final product (pics!), not to mention have it in my hands in 3 months as opposed to another year for a redesign.

Otherwise, everything went well. With the thumb keys a bit closer, it will be perfect!

Looks like there may be a PCB redesign whether you like it or not.. It is pretty quick by the way. And I do think DOX had meant to do more work on the PCB as it was. Those prototypes don't look like a finished product at all...

Looks like there may be a PCB redesign whether you like it or not.. It is pretty quick by the way. And I do think DOX had meant to do more work on the PCB as it was. Those prototypes don't look like a finished product at all...

Firstly, let's not make this personal. I wasn't attacking you, or your ideas. I was simply stating that the decision regarding these most recent proposals had already been made a long time ago, and that bringing them back from the dead had very little chance to change anything. I'm not going to argue about what Dox may or may not do in the future, because I am not him, nor can I control what he does. That being said and based on what I read earlier, when Dox makes a decision he tends to stand by it. You're welcome to critique me as much as you want, but in this case I feel pretty confident in saying that neither multiple controllers, in any configuration, nor flippable PCBs are going to make it into the feature set of the ErgoDox hardware.

Secondly, shortening some traces on a PCB does not count as a total redesign. In fact, Dox was going to do the mod himself on the PCBs by simply cutting the thumb section and doing a little bit of hand-wiring...

Quote from: Dox;602337

I think that the thumb keys are a bit too far out. The 3 furthest keys are hard to reach and my thumb is a bit too stretched in the standard (thumb on space) position.I will put them closer for the case prototype. I will cut the thumb from the PCB and hand wire it to test it.

I implore you to start seeing what is there, as opposed to what your mind wants you to see.

Until the man himself intervenes here, I'm done discussing hardware. Firmware and UI, I'm all ears, because very few decisions have been made. ic07 and I have expressed that we are open to new ideas and features for it, and thus encourage discussion along those lines.

With the flippable PCB, how does it work out what with that extra chip? Also, one could have two locations for the Teensy, depending on what hand/side you have, you could use different holes across the top.

I PMed DOX to ask if I could have a look at the schematics. I'll wait and see what he says. I don't want to interfere with his work if he doesn't want me to. But really, I think a flippable PCB is quite simple to put together. That being said without me having given it a decent try.

The Teensy can be mounted on either side really. Since it is through hole it only needs to be mounted upside down if changing side. The only slight annoyance this comes with is reaching the reset button on it. That is easily solved with a hole in the PCB. This I have done before =) Bending the legs backwards on that other IC is probably not a good idea though...

Don't forget that with sufficient desk space and a properly sized cable you just put the left half where you want it and tuck the right half out of the way (or vice versa). If you choose to do your own case you could even devise a scheme to stand that half on edge so even less desk space is needed.

Or for an extra ~$25 and a little work, you could put a Teensy and a TRRS connector in an altoids can, and use that for the right hand side :) .

As regards the switches:7bit is currently doing a group buy of cherry switches (both plate and PCB mounted) over at deskthority:http://deskthority.net/marketplace-f11/cherry-mx-taking-pre-orders-t2760.html

Just thought it's worth mentioning. Of course getting in on that group buy depends on the time frame we are looking at as regards the final production of the dox. :-)

How many keys we are actually going to have?

EDIT: Silly me, he has a thread here at Geekhack as well, in the group buys section.

Well, now I am certainly tempted to justs join that group buy. Which switches do you think would fit the ErgoDox best? I am thinking either linear MX Reds, or alternatively clicky MX Blues or MX Whites (I like their sound better).

Well, not I am certainly tempted to justs join that group buy. Which switches do you think would fit the ErgoDox best? I am thinking either linear MX Reds, or alternatively clicky MX Blues or MX Whites (I like their sound better).

I've just scanned this thread and am most definitely interested in the keyboard that is being developed. Glad to see all the knowhow on geekhack is being put into practice! Add me to the list.

I've been on a quest for a better keyboard for many years and have tried *all* the usual suspects and failures, only to get more dissapointed. I'm currently compromising on a Kinesis Freestyle and concluded that separation is more important to me than angling/tenting, etc. If only it had better quality keys...

While I tried to grasp as much of the current status/development as I could, I may have missed some info, since obviously I couldn't read every single message in this thread. So forgive me if one of my comments has already been dealt with. Maybe it would be an idea to add some more FAQs on the website?

First, I agree with most of the development decisions, layout, functionality, etc. Congrats on your efforts of merging the best aspects of all current mediocre keyboards ;-)

Costs: I consider 300 dollars or more perfectly acceptable. I'm at the keyboard over 10 hours a day. I pay top money for the best ergonomic chair I can find and use high quality monitors. Why save on what I consider the most important aspect of computing: a comfortable input device. Honestly, I'd pay a lot more for any keyboard that met my needs. Quality, durability, flexibility outweigh costs.

Build: Can't really figure out how this will work. Are we supposed to order certain parts ourselves and finish the keyboard? Or will certain community members do this? My technical/engineering knowhow is too limited to do this. I can imagine this will be a mayor obstacle for people who are interested in the final product.

Functionality: While I understand the choice for compactness and minimalistic design, I find the lack of Function keys a serious flaw. Before you jump on me, let me explain. To me, a keyboard geared at heavy PC users should focus on being ergonomic in all aspects, including minimizing the usage of a mouse or pointing device. I use Alt+ Control + Function key combination hundreds of time a day in all sorts of programs and can't imagine using a keyboard that doesn't have these. It would drastically slow me down. (Does everybody seriously use a mouse to close a program when Alt+F4 is within reach?)

Adding these to a different layer or reassigning them doesn't really solve the problem: If I have to switch layers, use a combination, switch back, I'm doubling the amount of keys I have to use. If I'd assign them to the number keys, other shortcuts (such as Control+1 through 4) in Outlook are gone.

I fully understand that this contradicts some of your initial design/functionality choices, but still wanted to share my thoughts, mostly because I'm surprised this hasn't been discussed in more detail. ;-)

Maybe adding a X-keys device (key stick, XK-24) for Function keys... ? Still interested in the keyboard though.... Hell, I'd buy a few just to keep you guys motivated!

Functionality: While I understand the choice for compactness and minimalistic design, I find the lack of Function keys a serious flaw. Before you jump on me, let me explain. To me, a keyboard geared at heavy PC users should focus on being ergonomic in all aspects, including minimizing the usage of a mouse or pointing device. I use Alt+ Control + Function key combination hundreds of time a day in all sorts of programs and can't imagine using a keyboard that doesn't have these. It would drastically slow me down. (Does everybody seriously use a mouse to close a program when Alt+F4 is within reach?)

Something like that heavily depends on the operating system you are using, does it not?

For my day to day tasks I mainly use mutt and vim in a terminal multiplexer (tmux), Firefox with the Pentadactyl plugin, and PDF readers such as llpp or mupdf, where all of the mentioned programs have vim-like keybindings. My window manager (Xmonad) also has vim-like keybindings.

I _never_ use the mouse, and I do not even rely heavily on Alt, Control or function keys (CTRL is my most heavily used key).

While I certainly understand your need to cut back on using the mouse, your operating system (Windows of some flavour, I figure), is not really meant for that kind of work. But even so, if you use appropriate programs, you have don't have to have special functions keys.

I don't really understand what more keys you need on that keyboard. What's missing?

While I certainly understand your need to cut back on using the mouse, your operating system (Windows of some flavour, I figure), is not really meant for that kind of work. But even so, if you use appropriate programs, you have don't have to have special functions keys.

I don't really understand what more keys you need on that keyboard. What's missing?

So you're saying change his entire workflow and the programs he uses in order to suit the keyboard? That's a bit silly.

I'm interested in this project because of the engineering involved, so my opinion is not one coming from a potential user... That said, I wouldn't buy a keyboard without F-keys. I've been pondering designing my own board and am sorely tempted to include a 2x5 set on the left (ala Sun type-5) to have more keys. This way I can have all the f-key combos for the programs I use and then all my own combos for other uses.

So you're saying change his entire workflow and the programs he uses in order to suit the keyboard? That's a bit silly.

I'm interested in this project because of the engineering involved, so my opinion is not one coming from a potential user... That said, I wouldn't buy a keyboard without F-keys. I've been pondering designing my own board and am sorely tempted to include a 2x5 set on the left (ala Sun type-5) to have more keys. This way I can have all the f-key combos for the programs I use and then all my own combos for other uses.

Even as a Windows user and developer, I never use the F'n keys. Maybe I'm just not pro enough for that kind of thing, but if I really needed a certain set, I don't think it's unruly to add a few keystrokes to switch to a different layer which, say, has remapped the numrow to f'n keys, and then when finished jump back to the base layer. I understand your hesitance about not having the F'n keys, and while custom layers may not be the perfect solution, it's a heck of a lot better than nothing. This board, tbh, is probably not the most ideal for a Windows user, but it can definitely work. Still getting 2 if I can!

While I certainly understand your need to cut back on using the mouse, your operating system (Windows of some flavour, I figure), is not really meant for that kind of work.

Windows, which is perfectly suited for cutting back on using the mouse. You'll find that you can operate practically all commonly used Window functions and programs with a huge number of shortcuts (and many of these use the Function keys). The majority of casual PC users doesn't know this and doesn't use them, but I believe many professionals in text entry/editing related jobs DO use these. By excluding Function keys, these potentials buyers are - maybe - lost.

Quote from: OrangeJewce;616941

...I don't think it's unruly to add a few keystrokes to switch to a different layer which, say, has remapped the numrow to f'n keys, and then when finished jump back to the base layer. I understand your hesitance about not having the F'n keys, and while custom layers may not be the perfect solution, it's a heck of a lot better than nothing. This board, tbh, is probably not the most ideal for a Windows user, but it can definitely work.

Yes, obviously it can work, which is why I'm definitely interested, but - like I said - it will decrease efficiency.

Are there any numbers on which OS people who are interested are using? While I appreciate this keyboard may be intended/designed more for other OS, if (at any point) this project would turn more commercial, considering the needs of Window users may make the difference between success and failure. Just by sheer numbers of potential buyers.

Ah well, I'm guessing there's no chance in hell adding Function keys will be considered at this point... and I certainly don't want to sidetrack this initiative, so moving on!

Windows, which is perfectly suited for cutting back on using the mouse. You'll find that you can operate practically all commonly used Window functions and programs with a huge number of shortcuts (and many of these use the Function keys). The majority of casual PC users doesn't know this and doesn't use them, but I believe many professionals in text entry/editing related jobs DO use these. By excluding Function keys, these potentials buyers are - maybe - lost.

Yes, obviously it can work, which is why I'm definitely interested, but - like I said - it will decrease efficiency.

Are there any numbers on which OS people who are interested are using? While I appreciate this keyboard may be intended/designed more for other OS, if (at any point) this project would turn more commercial, considering the needs of Window users may make the difference between success and failure. Just by sheer numbers of potential buyers.

Ah well, I'm guessing there's no chance in hell adding Function keys will be considered at this point... and I certainly don't want to sidetrack this initiative, so moving on!

Surger,

Unfortunately, as I told someone else who wanted to make some hardware changes, the design has pretty much been set in stone. That doesn't mean a v2 won't ever happen, but for this go around, there won't be any additional keys on top of the 76. It was proposed early on that more keys were added, but sadly it wasn't to be. I can tell you that the OS numbers will likely be skewed. Many of those who frequently chime in on the forums strike me as Unix/Linux developers. AFAIK I am one of the few who do Windows development. This doesn't mean that many do not use MSFT products, only that at work, where the greatest use of the keyboard occurs, a linux environment is preferable, and they use an editor like Vi/Vim, which allows them to pretty much never use a mouse.

I apologize in advance for any characterizations of the community. I do not mean any disrespect, as I love Unix ans work with it daily. These are just my impressions. I hope that you pick one of these up, I feel pretty confident it is going to fill a very unique and desired niche in the Keyboard market.

I'm probably going to have function keys for the ones on the edges (and maybe the bottom). The "inside" two keys can be modifiers (for obvious reasons) you could also assign some of the keys near the thumbs to funciton keys.

I see how people don't like not having an extra row of keys across the top, but I don't think it's really needed, especially with so many assignable keys at your disposal. You can tailor the layout to include your most commonly used keys in the most easily hit positions. If you want, I can Download a graphics program and show you on the image.---To answer another one of your questions (I should add a FAQ: Good idea) It will likely be sold as a "parts kit" form, but several members, myself included, are willing to do the assembly, though I imagine most will want some money for their time. My goal would be to get as many of these ergoDOX's in the hands of people as possible.

OrangeJewce, thanks for your comments. Yes, I gathered that most users here were developers, and appreciate they have different needs. Don't mistake my comments for criticism; just offering a slightly different perspective from a different potential target group.

Quote from: dorkvader;616983

I'm probably going to have function keys for the ones on the edges (and maybe the bottom). The "inside" two keys can be modifiers (for obvious reasons) you could also assign some of the keys near the thumbs to funciton keys.

Yes, I can see that as an option. I will certainly try to 'work around' the missing f-keys. No need for an image; I can think of several solutions, such as positioning my X-keys (http://www.piengineering.com/xkeys/xk24.php) in between the two sections.

Quote from: dorkvader;616983

To answer another one of your questions (I should add a FAQ: Good idea) It will likely be sold as a "parts kit" form, but several members, myself included, are willing to do the assembly, though I imagine most will want some money for their time. My goal would be to get as many of these ergoDOX's in the hands of people as possible.

OK. Excellent. Completely agree with compensating members for their time and effort!

OrangeJewce, thanks for your comments. Yes, I gathered that most users here were developers, and appreciate they have different needs. Don't mistake my comments for criticism; just offering a slightly different perspective from a different potential target group.

Yes, I can see that as an option. I will certainly try to 'work around' the missing f-keys. No need for an image; I can think of several solutions, such as positioning my X-keys (http://www.piengineering.com/xkeys/xk24.php) in between the two sections.

OK. Excellent. Completely agree with compensating members for their time and effort!

The great thing, in my opinion about this community, is that they are willing to go so above and beyond what normal forums do for their members. For instance, we have I think 4 developers working on the firmware and layout modifying GUI (myself included). Just recently the community came together to help a member out who had an immediate need to come up with some capital to help is sick dog, and GH rallied around him through direct and keycap donations to help raise the funds. The reason I bring any of this up is that many of us really just like giving back to the community of Mechanical enthusiasts, and so we give our time and money without expecting something in return. That's why I really enjoy coming to GH. But this is just my take on that issue. I don't think it's wrong at all that GH offers services to its members for a fee, just that what really amazes me about this place is how the community will come together to help each other out and to really innovate in the mechanical world, like with this project!

No worries Surge, I was merely clarifying some of why certain design decisions were made, and to hopefully put some of it in perspective for you. I am a Windows guy. At work, all the other developers tease me because I am stuck doing UI and automated testing, which has to be MSFT side, solely because that's what our customers use and we have to cater to their needs. I really enjoy that role, but I also understand that it's rather unique unless you're working on a very large windows application which has many collaborators. So I am with you in trying to make the keyboard for those of us who aren't hacking away at Unix programs frequently. That is why I took the lead in trying to develop a UI for people to modify, create, and share ErgoDox layouts. effh is helping me out by doing some of the interpreting work between the firmware hex and the output which will be edited in my program.

Anyways, I'll get off the soap box now, I only meant to say that there are others who are Windows dominant, and I do see why the F keys would be very useful for you.

Windows, which is perfectly suited for cutting back on using the mouse. You'll find that you can operate practically all commonly used Window functions and programs with a huge number of shortcuts (and many of these use the Function keys). The majority of casual PC users doesn't know this and doesn't use them, but I believe many professionals in text entry/editing related jobs DO use these. By excluding Function keys, these potentials buyers are - maybe - lost.

I understand perfectly well that you can have those functions in Windows, and that people who actually care about what their OS is capable of will use those features.

However, the workflow you have mentioned is very specific to the needs of Windows users, and there are many people on Geekhack and especially in this thread who do not need the functions-keys (the amount of people using HHKBs and Pokers here speaks volumes).

So, I believe a rewrite of the firmware and a redesign of the PCB as well as the keyboard's case to accomodate function keys would not really be adequate.

Adding a "function modifier key", much like a shift or ctrl key that only momentarily turns on the function layer when pressed, shouldn't add to much discomfort using F keys. F keys on a regular keyboard are far enough away to lose home row anyways.

Adding a "function modifier key", much like a shift or ctrl key that only momentarily turns on the function layer when pressed, shouldn't add to much discomfort using F keys. F keys on a regular keyboard are far enough away to lose home row anyways.

The other option is to implement it as a type of "fn" key commonly seen on lenovo/laptop keyboards. This would have to be done on the firmware level, and I do not think that the GUI will be able to control that directly in its first iteration. If you want it try to make a feature request on the Git repository!

Without having looked to close on the code, I think it should be really simple adding a if(my-fun-layer-key is pressed) send function key; else send regular key; This should be possible to do on a higher level than the I/O communication between the keyboard halves. And on this higher level nothing is particularly tricky to do yourself.

There should probably be some way of accessing the function keys no matter what. Although I use them next to never myself, sometimes they are actually necessary.

Without having looked to close on the code, I think it should be really simple adding a if(my-fun-layer-key is pressed) send function key; else send regular key; This should be possible to do on a higher level than the I/O communication between the keyboard halves. And on this higher level nothing is particularly tricky to do yourself.

There should probably be some way of accessing the function keys no matter what. Although I use them next to never myself, sometimes they are actually necessary.

I think this is something to talk to ic07 about, and that someone should post on the codebase. I will dig up a link when I get home about it

If it is a locking switch to change between different layouts, of which one contains F-keys for situations where they are handy, along with other more heavily used keys in that same layer, it could certainly be a good idea. As a means to reach a layer of exclusively F-keys it sounds pretty useless.

Yes, I can see that as an option. I will certainly try to 'work around' the missing f-keys. No need for an image; I can think of several solutions, such as positioning my X-keys (http://www.piengineering.com/xkeys/xk24.php) in between the two sections.

Another option, if you think it's worth a dedicated key position on the home layer, would be to define a layer key that's also an alt key, so instead of pressing alt+fn#, you'd be pressing [alt,layer]+fn# - and the alt+number keys would stay the same. I'd probably be the one to add it to the firmware, but I think it'd be a fairly trivial addition if people thought it was worth having.

Quote from: PrinsValium;617147

Without having looked to close on the code, I think it should be really simple adding a if(my-fun-layer-key is pressed) send function key; else send regular key; This should be possible to do on a higher level than the I/O communication between the keyboard halves. And on this higher level nothing is particularly tricky to do yourself.

There should probably be some way of accessing the function keys no matter what. Although I use them next to never myself, sometimes they are actually necessary.

The keypress paradigm is a bit different in this firmware, but the general idea's correct: layer keys (and locking-layer keys) are implemented, and people can remap what they like. Fn keys are currently accessible (in the QWERTY map) on the 2nd layer, where the number keys are.

Quote from: mSSM;616931

For my day to day tasks I mainly use mutt and vim in a terminal multiplexer (tmux), Firefox with the Pentadactyl plugin, and PDF readers such as llpp or mupdf, where all of the mentioned programs have vim-like keybindings. My window manager (Xmonad) also has vim-like keybindings.

I *wish* I had a workflow like that, lol. Haven't had the patience to learn yet though... I currently use gvim, chrome, and thunderbird, mostly, in Ubuntu + Gnome.

Is the locking/non-locking layer keys implemented as two separate functionalities? I had an idea to make shift locking (or act as a caps lock toggle) if it was pressed just shortly, and behave regularly when held for a longer period of time. I never got around to implement that though (as with many other things..).

Is the locking/non-locking layer keys implemented as two separate functionalities? I had an idea to make shift locking (or act as a caps lock toggle) if it was pressed just shortly, and behave regularly when held for a longer period of time. I never got around to implement that though (as with many other things..).

I believe if you implement it as a hit to change, hit again to change back type layer switch, the MXlock works perfectly. I'm pretty sure you can set up the access-IS keyboards this way(as well as momentary) (though they don't have lock switches)

I really need to get a MXlock switch, so when I make wy phantom, I can switch from dvorak-and numpad to dvorak-and-arrowkeys. It's two useful layers (with an identical alpha-area) that I'd be using long enough to justify it, and it's a really good solution in my book.

I just need to PM 7bit about them :p---Also, I updated the second post the other day (or so I thought). I normally keep the "backup file" more up to date, though. If you're not on the interest list now, feel free to PM me or post again in this topic.---OJ is right: GH is a good community. I want to do my part keeping it that way.

I *wish* I had a workflow like that, lol. Haven't had the patience to learn yet though... I currently use gvim, chrome, and thunderbird, mostly, in Ubuntu + Gnome.

I strongly urge you not to do it. :D You are going to be entirely dependent on your very own setup, and you are going to _hate_ using anything but. Fun thing is that it sounds like a lot of work to learn that stuff, but in the end it's more for lazy people. ;-)

Another option, if you think it's worth a dedicated key position on the home layer, would be to define a layer key that's also an alt key, so instead of pressing alt+fn#, you'd be pressing [alt,layer]+fn# - and the alt+number keys would stay the same. I'd probably be the one to add it to the firmware, but I think it'd be a fairly trivial addition if people thought it was worth having.

Yes, actually, adding that flexibility would be interesting: one would achieve an Alt+Function key press without increasing the number of keys to be pressed. Same for a Control+fn and Shift+fn.

I am looking for an Icon to represent the ErgoDox UI. This will be used as the shortcut and installation Icon. I am also looking for a masthead to use as part of the installation project. Feel free to shoot me a PM with something that constitutes your own original work or an image that you have license to use. Please note that by submitting you agree in whole that I and the ErgoDox team can reproduce and freely use the images at our own discretion. Anyone is welcome to send me something and I will let you know what is selected in the end if there are many submissions. If nobody comes forward I'll just slap something together, but hopefully somebody who's a better artist than I can help us out! Really looking forward to it.

Since you already have transistors at each column, why not add the extra eight for the ROWn as well? This would allow you to use the full 500 USB mA. Say 480mA after the uC gets its share =) That would then be 60mA per ROWn. Brighter then that will not happen without extra power in any case.

Using 8 rows on a regular board is a little bit of a pain when laying out the matrix. 6 is easier to work with, and gives ~21 columns on a full sized board. 8x13 is actually 104 for you ANSI people ;)

Nice. IMO, the prev. version without the tool was a bit cleaner, more powerfull. When it comes to design, less is often more ;-)Have you considered flipping it? I.e.: buttons sticking out on the right. It will be easier to use the design in different locations/situations; it will outline better when displayed amongst other icons, can be used easier on webpages etc.

Is the locking/non-locking layer keys implemented as two separate functionalities? I had an idea to make shift locking (or act as a caps lock toggle) if it was pressed just shortly, and behave regularly when held for a longer period of time. I never got around to implement that though (as with many other things..).

:)

To answer that question though, I think I'll have to write a quick overview of the firmware paradigm anyway - or feel free to skip the next two paragraphs, I won't be sad :) . In this firmware, each keypress and keyrelease generates a function call, which is responsible for doing all the actual work. The function is passed a uint8_t (usually a keycode), along with some other things. The assigned functions and keycodes are stored in 3 separate [layer][row][column] matrices; so for each key, on each layer, we have a keycode, keypress function, and keyrelease function.

So, the functions dealing with layer increment and decrement all manipulate the layer matrix (each key also has its own layer) in the same way. Different behavior is implemented by changing which function gets called at what time. To implement a non-locking layer key, for instance, you'd assign an equal layer increment and decrement to that key's keypress function and keyrelease function. To implement a locking layer key, you'd assign an increment (or decrement) to that key's keypress function, and leave the keyrelease function null. There are a couple other behaviors that can be implemented as well.

Long answer, sorry. And I left out a lot of details, but I hope it's still clear enough.

Locking based on time sounds like a cool idea :) . I don't know much of anything about AVR timers though, so if I look into it it'll have to be after I've gotten some other stuff done.

Quote from: mSSM;617428

I strongly urge you not to do it. :D You are going to be entirely dependent on your very own setup, and you are going to _hate_ using anything but. Fun thing is that it sounds like a lot of work to learn that stuff, but in the end it's more for lazy people. ;-)

Haha. I realize that. I'm pretty sure this keyboard will be a definite step in the wrong direction then ;)

Quote from: Surger;617814

Yes, actually, adding that flexibility would be interesting: one would achieve an Alt+Function key press without increasing the number of keys to be pressed. Same for a Control+fn and Shift+fn.

Added to the 'dev' branch :) . Still to early to promise which features'll be in the final release, or be visible from the UI, but at least it's been through preliminary testing.

There's the topic on DT. Dox has a working prototype with a shapeways plastic case. I believe the case was $200 total.

I'm hoping to have the case files updated this weekend, so we can get some quotes on the layer case from water/laser cutters.---I'll be updating the interest list later this evening with all the interest garnered from DT over the break.

I will have to get in contact with ic07 and move up my timeline for completing the UI project prototype. I had no idea so much progress was being made! I figure I will have 4-6 weeks from the initiation of the group buy to get V 1.0 of the firmware stuff out so that should be pretty good I would think. I will keep up to date on both threads.

Hi guys, I'm interested in it, if it's under US$300 (all assembled and ready to use) and if you ship it international.

Please keep me updated. Thanks ;)

Currently I don't think you'll be able to get it for that price, from DT it seemed like aluminum cases were going to be in the $200 range, and after PCBs you'd be sitting at around $250. Switches and Caps are going to come in at around another $100 (depending on type). Then add assembly and international shipping, and I don't see it going for less than $400 :'(. If you can get in on a printed plastic case it may push the cost down by $100, but I am not sure what the status is on that.

We'll see how it turns out. In the end the PCB will probably be reasonably cheap, MX blacks are cheap if you harvest them from some other board and if need be a piece of cardboard will work as coaster case.

Hi guys, I'm interested in it, if it's under US$300 (all assembled and ready to use) and if you ship it international.

Please keep me updated. Thanks ;)

Currently I don't think you'll be able to get it for that price, from DT it seemed like aluminum cases were going to be in the $200 range, and after PCBs you'd be sitting at around $250. Switches and Caps are going to come in at around another $100 (depending on type). Then add assembly and international shipping, and I don't see it going for less than $400 :'(. If you can get in on a printed plastic case it may push the cost down by $100, but I am not sure what the status is on that.

Hi guys, I'm interested in it, if it's under US$300 (all assembled and ready to use) and if you ship it international.

Please keep me updated. Thanks ;)

Currently I don't think you'll be able to get it for that price, from DT it seemed like aluminum cases were going to be in the $200 range, and after PCBs you'd be sitting at around $250. Switches and Caps are going to come in at around another $100 (depending on type). Then add assembly and international shipping, and I don't see it going for less than $400 :'(. If you can get in on a printed plastic case it may push the cost down by $100, but I am not sure what the status is on that.

What it will all come down to is the case material. It seemed like, based on the DT discussions, DoX was going to offer only Aluminum in the official group buy, but I think The_Beast was investigating 3D printing options for plastic cases, which is where my reduced amount for cases came from.

Hi! I'm new to geekhack, but I'd like to register interest in this. I found the site at ergodox.org (based on a reference to it in my introduction thread here on geekhack), but it's a little bare. How do I go about getting one of these?

Hi! I'm new to geekhack, but I'd like to register interest in this. I found the site at ergodox.org (based on a reference to it in my introduction thread here on geekhack), but it's a little bare. How do I go about getting one of these?

What it will all come down to is the case material. It seemed like, based on the DT discussions, DoX was going to offer only Aluminum in the official group buy, but I think The_Beast was investigating 3D printing options for plastic cases, which is where my reduced amount for cases came from.

Cheers,

Let's see how it goes :DIf the end product is great, don't mind paying a bit more. :)Thanks for your quick reply.

So after reading through this thread (and the accompanying thread on deskthaurity), I think I've gleaned the following:

The design of the device is all but set in stone at this point.

Dox already has a prototype, has put it through the paces, and loves it.

No official order has been placed yet, so most (if not all) others don't have one yet.

At one point geekhack went down, and the deskthaurity spread started up in its absence.

Price is looking to be over $400 at this point, bottom line.

Which site are people treating as the home for this now? GH was first, and appears to be back now, but it seems to be fairly stalled compared to the DT thread.

I cruise both forums, and so does Dork. As for the rest of the community, I'd say that more discussion exists on DT. However, I would not rely on that to contain anything official outside of what is occurring with PCB development. For official announcements, etc., I would encourage you to look at www.ergodox.org and maintain a presence here because the official GB will most definitely have a thread here.''

Just realized Lister is on the list, but not Litster. Don't believe that Lister imposer. I am the real deal. Litster is the real deal! I am in since post 6 on this thread (http://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=22780.msg428686#msg428686)! ;D

Hopefully next month I'll be able to begin working on the meat of the UI, as IC hands me a relatively stable version of the firmware. I think Dox is still working out some issues with the case, and Prins just shipped the updated PCBs to both Dox and IC last week. I would estimate at least 2 months before a GB still.

If interest is still high in this and progress is still being made, I'd be willing to buy one for about $500, assuming the price includes everything needed to get it working and a set of blank keycaps.

If interest is still high in this and progress is still being made, I'd be willing to buy one for about $500, assuming the price includes everything needed to get it working and a set of blank keycaps.

The case will determine if it ends up costing more or less than $500 I believe. A milled aluminium case will ofc make it cost quite a bit, but there are other options in the works.

For a split ergonomic keyboard with topre switches, there is the μTron

Ah, thanks, yes I saw that a little while ago together with a video and that board seemed to be 'wrong' in a couple or so ways, not least, the price, but I recall the slope and angle looked wrong, maybe had too few keys, either way, unlike docomoz above, alas or me price is a factor.

bpiphany enlisted me as his beta tester. I soldered diodes and a teensy on to the right hand PCB (no connectors or resistors). After I flashed the firmware from github on to the teensy, the keyboard is not recognized by Windows at all when I plug it in.

Do I need to connect the two halves together in order for the teensy to boot correctly? Do I need to flash both .hex and .eep files onto the teensy? the 1.06 loader doesn't seem to know how to flash the .eep file.

yeah... the .eep is in the same exact format as .hex, if you rename it then it'll load... I just don't know how the teensy loader determines where to load it to. The file should tell it, but does it listen?

Absolutely. If you haven't seen it though you might want to check out JesuswasaZombie's GB IC thread (http://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=35439.0) as I think there are also moves being made there to coordinate this. Either way, I'm in! I'd like to see this happen as soon as possible.

and more here (https://groups.google.com/forum/?fromgroups=#!topic/lufa-support/Qookbb9v_YE):

Hi guys! Here's the EEPROM-writing asm code the GUI-based Teensy Loader uses. Actually, a binary copy of this is built into the Teensy Loader. When opening the .hex file, the Teensy Loader checks if there's an .elf file which matches the .hex file, and if so the .eeprom section is extracted from the .elf and appended to the binary data from of tiny program. Once downloaded and run, it just writes to the eeprom and then jumps back to the bootloader.

Prototypes are out in the field and are being beta-tested right now. The last remaining hurdle is the case, and even I still have no idea when we can expect that to be completed. You can always check out this thread on Deskthority for engineering related info.

Prototypes are out in the field and are being beta-tested right now. The last remaining hurdle is the case, and even I still have no idea when we can expect that to be completed. You can always check out this thread on Deskthority for engineering related info.

Respectfully: without the case, the keys are still laid out the same. If I were to guess, you'd opt for one of the sloped bottom designs? Personally, I'm going flat, so the keyboard will be just as ergo for me without the case as it will be with it.

I haven't heard anything about this case being "ergo", so unless they can make it adjustable (which would be very difficult), it should be as flat and low profile as possible!

Then it would be up to each of us to prop/tilt/tent it as we please. I'll probably build a stand out of cardboard, or out of a coat-hanger or something, that can prop the keyboard halves to an angle of at least 45°

Hi,This looks really good. Unfortunately, I didn't see this any earlier and now 30 pages are a lot to work through.I have a few questions about the design.What's the motivation for those extra keys on the bottom? I find keys like Alt, Ctrl and Alt-Gr on a conventional keyboard hard to reach with my fingers when my hands are in normal typing position, so I would think on an ergonomic keyboard there shouldn't be an extra row on the bottom.Also the center keys are relatively hard to reach because it requires reaching over two columns.Those who tried the prototype should know best, what's you experience with these?

Here it is. A couple of mistakes like the 3.5mm opening is too narrow, forgot the make room for the USB connector on the layers that sandwich the acrylic plate. I want to have a built-in wrist rest to the case as well. I will have to make all those changes for the next prototype.

(http://i.imgur.com/TPVLf.jpg)

Top view:(http://i.imgur.com/zZOAy.jpg)

BTW, to use this case, you will need to solder SMD diodes or through-hole diodes on the bottom of the PCB. SMD diodes on the bottom is better as you would not need to worry about the diode legs sticking up from the bottom.

I like the idea of a built-in wrist rest, but I'd be worried about disagreements stemming from details surrounding it (padding/firmness, surface texture, wrist rest dimensions for different hand sizes, etc), and potential setbacks surrounding the discussion. Is this just for the prototype that you've been testing or are you suggesting this for the full run of cases? Is there a plan for people who don't want it?

I like the idea of a built-in wrist rest, but I'd be worried about disagreements stemming from details surrounding it (padding/firmness, surface texture, wrist rest dimensions for different hand sizes, etc), and potential setbacks surrounding the discussion. Is this just for the prototype that you've been testing or are you suggesting this for the full run of cases? Is there a plan for people who don't want it?

Yeah I would rather not have a builtin wrist rest, not only for the materials cost increase, but also because it'll take a lot of space. Cool though, and to each their own.

I am so happy to have stumbled upon this marvelous project. Just knowing of its existence has relieved me of immense frustration. I've been fumbling with a recently bought Typematrix and scouring the internet for alternatives, cursing the cluelessness of industrial keyboard designs, until I almost at random landed on the key64 page. The moment I saw the design, I burst out in maniacal laughter; it was as if my every plea had been answered. Thanks to this thread, I now live with the hope of seeing these answers materialize under my running fingers. At last, I rest.

Anyway, I'm in for USD ~350. Accept Bitcoin for payment, and I'll send some delicious Danish beer on top.

I am so happy to have stumbled upon this marvelous project. Just knowing of its existence has relieved me of immense frustration. I've been fumbling with a recently bought Typematrix and scouring the internet for alternatives, cursing the cluelessness of industrial keyboard designs, until I almost at random landed on the key64 page. The moment I saw the design, I burst out in maniacal laughter; it was as if my every plea had been answered. Thanks to this thread, I now live with the hope of seeing these answers materialize under my running fingers. At last, I rest.

Anyway, I'm in for USD ~350. Accept Bitcoin for payment, and I'll send some delicious Danish beer on top.

Unfortunately, I highly doubt bitcoin will be an accepted currency ( since the GB will almost assuredly be using paypal ). But more is merrier!

I know some people like the small, regular version, while some other people like the design with wrist rest. But the switches are soldered to the PCBs with the mounting plate layer sandwiched in-between. Switching between regular and the wrist rest version would require desoldering and resoldering switches

I can re-design the mounting plate layer so that you always use the smaller, regular mounting plate, and you can move that mounting plate layer to go with the regular version of the case or the wrist rest version. When you use the wrist rest version, you just add an extension to the mounting-plate in the wrist rest area. The top two and the bottom two layers will be whichever design you choose to use. Everything is screwed down tightly so it should still be as sturdy as before.

This is a great time for crowd funding to get the project moving forward, and fits perfectly with the working-prototype stage the project is at: PCBs/electronics basically done, case options coming together.

Discrete levels of funding through perks/rewards matches our varied interest here at DT and GH (just pcbs, pcbs+electronics, full kits, plastic vs metal case, etc). It also opens up the possibility to make a more attractive package by offering keycap sets, switches, and/or assembly. Having the closest we can to a complete keyboard will help attract more people outside of GH/DT, which is better for everyone's bottom line. It also takes care of the pre-order money issue as it's a large entity holding the funds.

Now, this all hinges on people getting behind the project, handling things like shipping logistics and communication. Since I just rolled into this project a couple weeks ago, I don't really know what roles people have stepped up to. If no one has done so already I'll start crunching some numbers to get a good idea of costs and target prices for something like indiegogo.

This looks like a great keyboard, and I'd like to help make it a reality.

This is a great time for crowd funding to get the project moving forward, and fits perfectly with the working-prototype stage the project is at: PCBs/electronics basically done, case options coming together.

Discrete levels of funding through perks/rewards matches our varied interest here at DT and GH (just pcbs, pcbs+electronics, full kits, plastic vs metal case, etc). It also opens up the possibility to make a more attractive package by offering keycap sets, switches, and/or assembly. Having the closest we can to a complete keyboard will help attract more people outside of GH/DT, which is better for everyone's bottom line. It also takes care of the pre-order money issue as it's a large entity holding the funds.

Now, this all hinges on people getting behind the project, handling things like shipping logistics and communication. Since I just rolled into this project a couple weeks ago, I don't really know what roles people have stepped up to. If no one has done so already I'll start crunching some numbers to get a good idea of costs and target prices for something like indiegogo.

This looks like a great keyboard, and I'd like to help make it a reality.

I think this is a pretty dead horse tbh. Overall crowdsourcing this was ruled to be too costly upfront, and the logistics of handling all the money wasn't great. Secondly, it's hard enough trying to keep people settled whilst waiting for the case (many want pcbs NAO), It'd be really tough if we package caps now (since it can take a long time for a production run), to ask for an additional 2-3 months. When I get the UI done I plan on putting together something for a cap buy, since it seems there might not be a lot of interest in a WASD set.

Why was crowdsourcing ruled to be too costly up front? AFAIK, indiegogo would run the campaign and if it was successful, they would take their 4% cut and release the money to the organizers who could then make the purchases for everything in bulk and get those balls rolling.

We get 30-60 days to collect money and target a completed product/kit 2-4 months down the road from that. It seems like the optimal model for getting as much money up front to order at higher qty. It also creates a sense of legitimacy to mitigate people's aversion to handing over a few hundo to a GH/DT user before we have everything together. This legitimacy would also be much more attractive to people outside of this community, leading to higher qty.

Once that chunk of money is available, we can start placing orders for the PCBs, electronics, and/or switches and ship them out as kits earlier while the case designs and keycaps get sorted out. So it would benefit people like me, who are card-carrying members of PCBNAO.

This is definitely more work than a simple group buy would be. But the scope of the project and the costs involved might require something more than simple group buy organization.

Why was crowdsourcing ruled to be too costly up front? AFAIK, indiegogo would run the campaign and if it was successful, they would take their 4% cut and release the money to the organizers who could then make the purchases for everything in bulk and get those balls rolling.

We get 30-60 days to collect money and target a completed product/kit 2-4 months down the road from that. It seems like the optimal model for getting as much money up front to order at higher qty. It also creates a sense of legitimacy to mitigate people's aversion to handing over a few hundo to a GH/DT user before we have everything together. This legitimacy would also be much more attractive to people outside of this community, leading to higher qty.

Once that chunk of money is available, we can start placing orders for the PCBs, electronics, and/or switches and ship them out as kits earlier while the case designs and keycaps get sorted out. So it would benefit people like me, who are card-carrying members of PCBNAO.

This is definitely more work than a simple group buy would be. But the scope of the project and the costs involved might require something more than simple group buy organization.

Few months ago when kickstarter was initially proposed. At that time the idea went nowhere and was shot down.

I'm not going to dredge it up because...well this thread is 31 pages long and the DT thread is 22. 53 pages of searching ain't worth it. Just note this issue has been discussed before, and while what happens may have changed between then and now, I won't hold my breath.

We don't know what type of quantity we are dealing with.We still don't have a case. Dealbreaker.Switches won't be part of the buy, neither will keycaps. This is really, really firm.

It's been stated over and over there won't be a buy before the case is done. I don't see how this is going to alleviate such concern in the short term, if we still have to wait for everyone to submit payment, only to receive their goods piecemeal. I don't like it personally, and I would rather not have my money tied up for an extra 3-4 weeks while some others get PCBs earlier because that's all they want. I understand that people really want to get their hands on these things right now, but in the best interests of everyone who wants something I firmly believe we should wait for a final case design that can be mass produced. Once we have the R&D done I'm all ears on how to streamline the ordering and distribution process.

One thing to consider is this board is already expensive. 15% on top of a $200-$300 board really isn't cheap, since that won't include caps or switches. I'm still concerned about the IP related to these designs, we don't know what license everything will be covered under.

Cheers,

P.S. Found Dox's original post from last December:

Quote

Quote

Have you thought about broadening the audience a bit? Throw it on Kickstarter and get 100 people to pay $300. It couldn't hurt.

I thought about it but with my current job, I don't have the time to manage something like this.

P.P.S.I have mispoke, and "costly" was incorrect of me. I will remand that, and instead would rather say that the issue was previously discussed hella long time ago (longer than I thought actually), no idea if Dox's situation has changed.

I just summarized my first turnaround with MassDrop (http://deskthority.net/post82080.html#p82080); I think it's very promising, and it addresses a lot of your concerns.

A couple of quick highlights in direct response to your items here:

Massdrop is entirely different than Kickstarter, and much better suited to our needs.

Massdrop polling can help us elicit the current level of actionable interest so that they can plan accordingly.

The case doesn't seem far off; Dox's last images on DT look almost identical to the ones on ergodox.org, and he even said they were nearly complete. We can proceed with polling and massdrop setup; the case will only be required when the massdrop opens for purchase. If anyone can get in touch with Dox maybe we can get a time estimate to help with planning.

Massdrop can set up the buy such that everyone, PCB-only or full-components alike, will be fulfilled at the same time, with the same buy.

That alleviates a lot of concerns actually. I would be surprised if Dox would rather use a traditional buy for something like this. I agree, the primary concern with a standard GB is nobody can handle the money we're talking about here individually which may even reach the $100k mark. Paypal would freak the hell out, and if we put it in escrow, that's a huge amount of work that I am sure Dox wouldn't have time for.

Not sure if we'll be able to get a good deal on switches or any of the more rare ones, but we'll see. As for caps, I think the amount of interest will be pretty weak by comparison, so a traditional GB could be done for that.

I would rather not have my money tied up for an extra 3-4 weeks while some others get PCBs earlier because that's all they want.

Your money would only be held for an extra amount of time if the case designs were done and ready to order before the campaign was finished. It's not like anyone would sit around with the money while they twiddle their thumbs. When parts are ready to be ordered/manufactured, they should be. When parts come in to fulfill orders, the orders get shipped out. People getting their PCBs sooner doesn't make the complete kit come any later.

Is it just a lead time issue? You would only want to pay when the case design is finalized and you're only 2-3 weeks away from getting your parts instead of 6-8 weeks?

One thing to consider is this board is already expensive. 15% on top...

Indiegogo takes 4%. Where is this 15% coming from? This is a moot point as MassDrop looks much much better for our needs here, but I have a different understanding than you of how it would have worked with indiegogo.

As far as the IP problems are concerned, ErgoDox is under the GPL so AFAIK, anyone could sell a version of it, but they might have to change the name. Having said that, I consider dox the owner of this project and wouldn't like to see anyone do a commercial run without his involvement or blessing.

I would rather not have my money tied up for an extra 3-4 weeks while some others get PCBs earlier because that's all they want.

Your money would only be held for an extra amount of time if the case designs were done and ready to order before the campaign was finished. It's not like anyone would sit around with the money while they twiddle their thumbs. When parts are ready to be ordered/manufactured, they should be. When parts come in to fulfill orders, the orders get shipped out. People getting their PCBs sooner doesn't make the complete kit come any later.

Is it just a lead time issue? You would only want to pay when the case design is finalized and you're only 2-3 weeks away from getting your parts instead of 6-8 weeks?

One thing to consider is this board is already expensive. 15% on top...

Indiegogo takes 4%. Where is this 15% coming from? This is a moot point as MassDrop looks much much better for our needs here, but I have a different understanding than you of how it would have worked with indiegogo.

As far as the IP problems are concerned, ErgoDox is under the GPL so AFAIK, anyone could sell a version of it, but they might have to change the name. Having said that, I consider dox the owner of this project and wouldn't like to see anyone do a commercial run without his involvement or blessing.

15% came from an off hand, poorly remembered post by someone somewhere who had talked to massdrop and the fee was high (probably not 15% but hey I haven't talked to them personally).

If he's going to use GPL, no way to stop anyone from doing anything in regards to a commercial production. TBH the pcb would be changed and the controller most likely integrated, not to mention some other likely changes that would make mass production easier (no pcb mount switch holes).

A lot of my concerns were put to rest by bisl's firsthand account with talking to a Massdrop rep. I still don't know what their fee would be, and it would be interesting to know.

Multiple members met with them IN PERSON. Including myself... Basically the deeper the discount they get you the better cut they get. Hopefully BD will weigh in on this buy soon.

So we have to hope that the prices start low? Seems like a strange business model to me, since allegedly they are passing that additional tier savings back to us? Since when is imsto's moq 500? I thought it was 100?

Multiple members met with them IN PERSON. Including myself... Basically the deeper the discount they get you the better cut they get. Hopefully BD will weigh in on this buy soon.

So we have to hope that the prices start low? Seems like a strange business model to me, since allegedly they are passing that additional tier savings back to us? Since when is imsto's moq 500? I thought it was 100?

Cheers,

I mean, they aren't taking a huge cut off the top b/c that would be detrimental to their business model (a Group Buy). They take a small percentage per transaction IIRC and it only increases if they get a really deep discount (example a $1000 car part for 1/10th of that). This is all TMK, so hopefully BD will answer further questions.

As for IMSTO's keys, check this out http://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=31861.0

I've been following this project with great interest from almost the beginning and have been impressed with the contributions made by several people to make this thing happen. I've also been impressed by how long the process takes when it's all done by volunteers whose interest is divided by also having to make a living.

Would it help if someone was willing to put money up front to have the pcb's manufactured? It seems that there wouldn't be too great a risk to order 50 or so pairs of boards. At $40 per pair that would only be $2000. This would allow the less patient to get started sooner at volume buy pricing and I don't think it would hurt the other aspects of the development.

I could fund the initial order but have no knowledge or time to distribute the orders.

I've been following this project with great interest from almost the beginning and have been impressed with the contributions made by several people to make this thing happen. I've also been impressed by how long the process takes when it's all done by volunteers whose interest is divided by also having to make a living.

Would it help if someone was willing to put money up front to have the pcb's manufactured? It seems that there wouldn't be too great a risk to order 50 or so pairs of boards. At $40 per pair that would only be $2000. This would allow the less patient to get started sooner at volume buy pricing and I don't think it would hurt the other aspects of the development.

I could fund the initial order but have no knowledge or time to distribute the orders.

If this can help the process let me know.

The major part of the discussion about the keyboard has migrated to deskthority while geekhack was down:http://deskthority.net/workshop-f7/split-ergonomic-keyboard-project-t1753.html

Currently, the PCBs are still being finalized, and there is discussion about how exactly the group buy is going to happen (only PCB or all bits included). The problem is that the cases are not yet final, and that dox, being the driving force behind the project, seems to be busy with his real life. :-)

I am coordinating with Massdrop to construct a poll so that we can gauge actionable interest from all you quiet trackers. I'll reply when that's ready to go so everyone can head over there and declare their interest, and which parts they want; this will help them determine price breaks.

The amount of interest in this keyboard makes me wonder if this thing can be taken beyond a group buy.

The answer is [IMO]: most likely. I have no qualms that dox could have done a kickstarter on this and started a small business around it. That being said, the designs will be made open source, so that possibility is still open.

I have never tried an ergo keyboard but am definitely interested in this. I might also pick one up for my wife, who has carpal tunnel and has had an operation on one of her hands already - other hand pending... Good work guys !!!

Ooo.. Nope, no getting this by Christmas, sorry.. Lol. We're getting there though. Everything's done, except I think we're probably waiting in case options. Then we'll be waiting on massdrop to get the polling done, then the group buy. Then we'll be waiting for parts to ship (which might take a second for the PCBs, and maybe other parts depending on what you want). And then the people who want assembly will be waiting for that. Dunno enough to give better estimates of time right now, but that's how I'm understanding things at the moment - just to post a rough idea - :)

I've been pretty silent with this for a while, and I apologize--I'm working with Massdrop on getting the polls set up, but I want to get all the bases covered before I start shopping links around to direct everyone there. They had a good prototype poll set up, but it was missing a crucial option for PCB + Case. Once it's up with all the major ordering options I'll hit the thread with links.

Hey all! I heard back from Massdrop yesterday, and they have the poll set up for us (http://www.massdrop.com/poll/ergo-dox-full-or-partial). Please drop by and let them know what you'd like out of the Ergodox, be it the full kit, the PCB alone, or the PCB + Case, etc. This will help them work out price break information.

What's the difference between "1. Full Kit" and "6. Full kit + Cases + PCBs"? Is it about assembling?

What kind of case we are voting for atm: aluminium, acryllic, smth else? Or is it still TBD?

They've made a separate poll for the case type (http://www.massdrop.com/poll/ergo-dox-case). I don't believe this will be a winner-take-all thing, but rather just for them to gauge who wants what so they can shop the orders accordingly. I believe everyone is getting what they want in this case.

Anyone else having trouble with the Massdrop site. It annoying pops up a sign in doesn't seem to allow me to sign up. Clicking the signup button does nothing. I don't use Facebook, so that is not an option. There is no way to contact them for help as the signup popup has no such links.

Solved: You can ignore the popup and click "login" in the upper right corner of the page even though it is greyed out...that will take you to a page with a "Signup" link on it.

What's the difference between "1. Full Kit" and "6. Full kit + Cases + PCBs"? Is it about assembling?

What kind of case we are voting for atm: aluminium, acryllic, smth else? Or is it still TBD?

They've made a separate poll for the case type (http://www.massdrop.com/poll/ergo-dox-case). I don't believe this will be a winner-take-all thing, but rather just for them to gauge who wants what so they can shop the orders accordingly. I believe everyone is getting what they want in this case.

The case poll is now really skewed. I'd say it looks about tied between the two if you added all the Dox-Style cases together (maybe small advantage to litster style).

I actually asked them to clean up the options on the case poll, since it's unclear whether litster votes are voting for the built-in wrist rest shape, or the acrylic plate design rather than 3d printed case (since litster cases were originally shaped like dox cases). Basically the options available are 3d printed (flat, slant, tent+slant) or acrylic (with/without wrist rest) but the poll doesn't reflect that yet.

Does anyone know what could be the price difference between 3D-print vs acrylic case? At least some very rough numbers.If the difference is actually not that big, then I would vote for 3D-printed with wrist support (which is currently missing in the poll) - personally don't like transparent cases.

Does anyone know what could be the price difference between 3D-print vs acrylic case? At least some very rough numbers.If the difference is actually not that big, then I would vote for 3D-printed with wrist support (which is currently missing in the poll) - personally don't like transparent cases.

3D-printed with wrist support (which is currently missing in the poll)

It's not a simple combination of features: the project started with case designs that had no wrist rests, and then Litster (while experimenting with acrylic plates) opted to create the wrist rest extension. There are no 3d printing designs that include wrist rests that I'm aware of.

It's not a simple combination of features: the project started with case designs that had no wrist rests, and then Litster (while experimenting with acrylic plates) opted to create the wrist rest extension. There are no 3d printing designs that include wrist rests that I'm aware of.

I suspected that this is the case.But it shouldn't be hard to change the designs for whose who have drawn it in the first place, is it? After all Litster was also cutting it with a machine, so he already has some 3D model. Or is it 2D for the laser cnc? Though together with the wrist rests it gets bigger and thus may not fit that easily into 3D printer.

Anyway I'm actually ok if the acrylic will be cheaper to make and hopefully it will be not transparent.

Hey all--I heard back from the Massdrop guys again today. Right now, it's looking like the Ergodox buy will be ready to go in January, and will probably run for about a month.

Also, because 3D printing doesn't scale well Massdrop will be offering only litster-style cases, although they will offer it with and without the wrist rest. Those that have their hearts set on the dox-style case can go PCB-only for the buy and order one up on their own since the total cost to the buyer would be the same either way.

Finally, I brought the criticism to them concerning their registration wall, and while they sympathized (after all, it's something people don't like), they need to keep it in place to continue doing business with their suppliers, who from what I can tell essentially demand it. However, since there's no brand to keep happy with Ergodox, they've offered to try to make the Ergodox buy public and freely browsable, as a gesture of goodwill.

Hopefully this type of public implementation could be extended to other group buys in the future, for products that aren't simple retail goods (e.g. caps)? Those are my thoughts though, not their suggestion.

Man how the hell did i miss this, there was even a sticky in the ergonomics section and i still missed it.

I feel like such a noob reading this thread and section of geekhack! I would love to assemble something myself but i usually break something and i am horrible at soldering given my hand tremors.

I've only been able to get through some of the recent pages of this but it seems that getting a assembled version of this in the US would be a bit expensive and just may not be possible at all, correct me if i am wrong....I'm actually unsure how this works i am a complete noob when i comes to this part of geek-hack.

But damn i want one of these really bad, especially after seeing the photos, I kind of miss split design now; i had a Kinesis Freestyle for almost 3 years but i always thought the layout wasn't good and obviously cheap switches that didn't survive my jackhammer touch.

This board should be _the_ ergonomic board for the masses... extended thumb keys, flat easy to manufacture pcb, even fittable on a notebook, trackpoint version in the works... ...PATENT FREE... I can only dream ;)Keep up the great work guys, I do hope this is the future, however far it may be!

If this interest check is still active/stands I am absolutely interested in either an assembled one directly or paying someone in the USA to assemble a kit for me with brown switches or at least partially assemble it and i attempt to complete the assembly with the correct parts.

Other interest (not requirement) is a built in or add on 10-20 degree lateral slope and accompanying wrist rest similar to kinesis freestyle http://www.kinesis-ergo.com/support/freestyle_vip_insert.pdf

I am hesitant to state how much i am willing to pay, i know its not cheap, but I WANT to own this.

It would be really great if all the cables would be detachable (mini usb to the computer, and between the parts of the keyboard). I imagine only connecting the one handed part would be great for gaming.

It would be really great if all the cables would be detachable (mini usb to the computer, and between the parts of the keyboard). I imagine only connecting the one handed part would be great for gaming.

It's not completely impossible to move the controller to the left hand side. The Teensy is simple enough to mount inverted. The USB connector is connected through wires which makes it easy to correct for mounting upside down. Bending all the legs of the expander IC over backwards makes it possible to mount it upside down, just like the Teensy. Depending on the case It may also be possible to just put the switches on the "wrong" side.

It's not completely impossible to move the controller to the left hand side. The Teensy is simple enough to mount inverted. The USB connector is connected through wires which makes it easy to correct for mounting upside down. Bending all the legs of the expander IC over backwards makes it possible to mount it upside down, just like the Teensy. Depending on the case It may also be possible to just put the switches on the "wrong" side.

Sounds like a hastle. Since the connectors are in the front I guess it's enough to simply move the right one out of the way, but I wonder if there is ever any reason to just keep the right one connected unless you are a left hand mouse kind of person ( I am left handed but still use the mouse on the right hand).

there are 4 holes where you could screw in legs like the ones you get with KMACs.

I brought the idea of adding KMAC legs to Massdrop, and they're interested in adding them to the buy; in fact given the scarcity/difficulty of obtaining korean boards, they're planning on a sourcing trip to Korea. I personally don't know where to direct him, but if anyone's got a name or a number I'll certainly pass it along; otherwise I guess I just point him to kbdmania. In any case, the bottom line is that if we can put Massdrop in contact with a supplier, they'll try.

Quote from: litster

What i want to know is how they do quality control with a project like this.

The plan is still that they'll be sending the parts either to individual buyers, or at the buyer's discretion, a designated assembler from the volunteer list collected ages ago. Therefore, in terms of QA, they can't really do anything more than visually inspect the parts on the way through (specifically the cases). I'm sure the guys doing the assembly will give them love they deserve though.

Massdrop emphasized however that they don't want to sound like they'd leave anyone out in the cold--they urge anyone somehow ending up with a bad product to contact them either via email or live chat on their site.

Hey guys,I'm totally new to the scene and here on geekhack.org, but I'm really interested in this keyboard. I was always looking for a keyboard like this to relieve my RSI - and also because it looks cool! :DIf this means that I have to assemble it myself - nice new hobby, right? :)

Unfortunately, I somehow cannot access deskthority.net. (No idea if it's due to the fact that I'm in Japan or maybe some misconfiguration on my employers side. I will try later at home.)So I'm very thankful for the few but informative updates here!

Anyway, I voted on the massdrop.com poll. As far as I understand, they will start the group buy in January and ship to every country, right?

I established with them very early on that you'd be able to ship to an alternate location, so if you have a assembler who will build for you, you should be able to have your equipment sent to him/her instead. However, I believe that's up to us to organize.

That is true, but no place to look them up directly. Might be a good idea to get an IC going, the number of people who may want assembled could overwhelm a single individual.

Indeed, you also have to factor in that the Phantom and GH60 assembly services are being planned as well right now with the Phantom services starting sign ups any day now. There will be a queue for assembly services AND parts.

With the screw based case construction you can experiment with different slants to find what position works best for you. In addition to slant customization, you can also fully customize the keyboard layout and reprogram the teensy board (uses Arduino software) to make the keys trigger whatever functions you desire.

What do they mean by that? As far as I understand the cases available are flat and not slanted, right?

They also say there will be the choice between full hand and classic case. Full hand case means the one with hand rest? Which do you think is the more ergonomic choice?

Another question I couldn't find the answer for: How high (in cm) is the case? On the pictures it looks quite high which might be not really ergonomical.

And last, but not least: I'm a total switch noob. I only know that I dislike switches that need a lot of force to push.So I guess maybe the blue switches would be the right choice?

With the screw based case construction you can experiment with different slants to find what position works best for you. In addition to slant customization, you can also fully customize the keyboard layout and reprogram the teensy board (uses Arduino software) to make the keys trigger whatever functions you desire.

What do they mean by that? As far as I understand the cases available are flat and not slanted, right?

They also say there will be the choice between full hand and classic case. Full hand case means the one with hand rest? Which do you think is the more ergonomic choice?

Another question I couldn't find the answer for: How high (in cm) is the case? On the pictures it looks quite high which might be not really ergonomical.

And last, but not least: I'm a total switch noob. I only know that I dislike switches that need a lot of force to push.So I guess maybe the blue switches would be the right choice?

I appreciate your help!

1. I do not think they will offer a slant bottom in the group buy but the design could allow for a different bottom with a slant to be made. at least thats how i see it

2. Full hand would be a wrist rest, Is it ergonomic? although i have had plenty people tell me having a wrist rest is not ergonomic but if you look at the other split ergo boards like the kinesis and truly ergonomic they have a rest, i think its a matter of what you are comfortable with; you also have to decide if you think it looks good with that rest :)), which i don't; ill use my own.

3. That is a good question, they didn't go with the design on ergodox.org, it looks like its the Litster design, so i don't think this information has been made available, maybe the DT thread has something about it

4. i'm a little bit surprised they are not offering browns as part of the group buy, blues are clicky, if you are OK with clicky that is the lighter switch. I'm going to get clears and swap out the springs with a lighter red or brown spring to make "ergo clears". If you are having someone assemble this for you most likely they will offer services for modifying the switches or ordering new switches altogether like browns, greens, and reds.

-----

Man we got to get the word out about this, there seemed to be a lot of interest in this and then it faded it looks like, maybe add something to the subject and OP. I would love to get this cheaper. I know there is some people that don't like massdrop though; ill rolling the dice.

Thanks for your input.I also hope we can get some more people to commit. 199$ would be nice!

After having read your comment about the switches, I read a bit more and it seems that browns might be good for me.Damn it, why don't they offer them! :)

I confirmed with Massdrop via live chat: The case is 2.54cm high!For me, that creates a too steep angle for my wrist joint, so I definitely need a hand rest / the hand rest case.

The live chat guy (Will) said he was writing on the keyboard while chatting with me and had the one with hand rest. Apparently he's still getting used to it and blamed his typos on that. ;)But he says it feels very natural and is really ergonomical. (With hand rest.)

Also, they are checking about compatibility/availability with the MX browns, and if possible they will update the buy. Apparently it is possible to change your order any time until the countdown is over!

Going to place 2 x commit to buy.They seem to be organised, good response via online chat, Cheap shipping to Non-US (especially Asia country) and fairly customisation for people like me who looking for complete set.

Given how quickly they have reacted to feedback, I'm actually impressed by Massdrop thus far. They put together an assembly guide with photos, have added more customization at every turn when it's asked (pcb only or no switches), and finally changed its TOS (even if slightly).

My 1st post. Greetings to all @ GH. :) Base on mouser for mx switches. Reds are on backorder till march. Browns are supposely having shortages elsewhere. With demands there are bound to be shortages i guess.

My 1st post. Greetings to all @ GH. :) Base on mouser for mx switches. Reds are on backorder till march. Browns are supposely having shortages elsewhere. With demands there are bound to be shortages i guess.

Welcome to GeekHack L!athus! I hope you will enjoy this place. I heard mx switches are backordered because of the recent orders. Hopefully, 2013-2014 will be okay. I hear Cherry does not have the machinery to fulfill all the orders :(

Asked them a few questions about it on the massdrop chat and if I like the responses I think i'll be down for one. Want to see the build guide first though because where they've put 'Here is a link to our instruction manual', I don't see a link?

Well I commited to buy from massdrop, just want the board, and this seems the simplest way to go about it. I'll probably just end up selling the switches from it and using my abundant vintage blacks for it.

Asked them a few questions about it on the massdrop chat and if I like the responses I think i'll be down for one. Want to see the build guide first though because where they've put 'Here is a link to our instruction manual', I don't see a link?

the instructions are here

https://www.massdrop.com/dox-ergo.php

Oddly i think they took down the link to this page, maybe they are making revisions

Well I commited to buy from massdrop, just want the board, and this seems the simplest way to go about it. I'll probably just end up selling the switches from it and using my abundant vintage blacks for it.

Asked them a few questions about it on the massdrop chat and if I like the responses I think i'll be down for one. Want to see the build guide first though because where they've put 'Here is a link to our instruction manual', I don't see a link?

For US, its great with freeship. Though shipping to the rest of the world @20 is attractive too. If price could get even lower will be a plus. :D Getting the 100+ commitments is the only hurdle to get that price. 18 days left to hit that target. Last i login it still stands @ 2 commited.

IMO a complete kit isn't complete if its still missing keycaps. :)) Just thought that it would have been nice if, at least, those 1.5s were included as an option for the kit.

Well I commited to buy from massdrop, just want the board, and this seems the simplest way to go about it. I'll probably just end up selling the switches from it and using my abundant vintage blacks for it.

In my email to MD, and i believed others on DT or GH here as well, have express my interest in a kit possible option to go without switches. I have just recieved an email reply. Now they have added an option to go "switch-less". Its -$44 off the final price if you choose to go with that option, if i understand correctly. Just check up on their site. The option is available under switches now.

And for those outside of US interested in the buy but can't find your country under "country" just email your request to them. They will be added asap for you to procceed with it.

About switches, MD expressed in the mail that they have a hard time sourcing well priced reds and browns. I'm not sure why but they will be running a seperate GB for brown switch only along with ergodox.

Thats all the answers i got from MD. Hope its helpful info for any.

I glad that they are prompt @ addressing issues so far adding more options of customising your order.

There was a lot of interest on DT as well it seems, but there is major hate towards mass-drop there.

DT is inexplicably toxic towards massdrop, or really towards progress of any kind. If I were acting in my own self-interest and not the best interest of the buy, I would have stopped posting there long ago and updated only here.

But hey, if there is a single person monitoring only the DT thread that ends up buying in, I guess it was worth it.

There was a lot of interest on DT as well it seems, but there is major hate towards mass-drop there.

DT is inexplicably toxic towards massdrop, or really towards progress of any kind. If I were acting in my own self-interest and not the best interest of the buy, I would have stopped posting there long ago and updated only here.

But hey, if there is a single person monitoring only the DT thread that ends up buying in, I guess it was worth it.

Like it, go get it. Dislike it, just walk away. :))

I would probably go with the kit w/o switches. Looking to build it with reds.

I went with no wrist rest, acrylic, black switches. I'm hoping that reds will be added mid-flight, and if not I'll probably get rested as well, just without switches. I can tolerate an extra set of blacks I don't like, but two sets I don't need.

Basically, my line of thinking is that no matter what, I'll have some kind of squishy wrist rest under my hands--the built-in wrist rest basically just determines the height, and whether I have one big one (no rest) or two small ones (rest). Also, one thing to consider is that Ergodox enables you to have your two halves spaced as far apart as you want, so maybe the two-small-pad method is best; in that case the design with the rests is best. it's worth noting that having the pad sitting on the case's built-in rest keeps the pad in place relative to the keyboard, whereas the case without the rest could potentially scoot away from the rest or something.

Basically, my line of thinking is that no matter what, I'll have some kind of squishy wrist rest under my hands--the built-in wrist rest basically just determines the height, and whether I have one big one (no rest) or two small ones (rest). Also, one thing to consider is that Ergodox enables you to have your two halves spaced as far apart as you want, so maybe the two-small-pad method is best; in that case the design with the rests is best. it's worth noting that having the pad sitting on the case's built-in rest keeps the pad in place relative to the keyboard, whereas the case without the rest could potentially scoot away from the rest or something.

Food for thought.

I think it's best to have two seperate wrist rests/pads. And as you said, if you use seperate wrist rests, they might move around etc. (Of course depending on the wirst rest.)This is why I will go for the Full hand option, although it looks not as cool.

For those people who want to buy extra PCBs, may I ask why? Do you use it for backup if you screw up or do you want to make more than one keyboard? If the latter, why? And where do you get the other supplies needed?

And one last noob question: if I want to change the switches later on (because I have no idea which I want, will be my first mechanical keyboard ;D ), does it mean I need to unsolder all of the switches?

And one last noob question: if I want to change the switches later on (because I have no idea which I want, will be my first mechanical keyboard ;D ), does it mean I need to unsolder all of the switches?

It's possible to change out the stem/spring without desoldering. There are some threads around here, and you can find videos on youtube.

And one last noob question: if I want to change the switches later on (because I have no idea which I want, will be my first mechanical keyboard ;D ), does it mean I need to unsolder all of the switches?

It's possible to change out the stem/spring without desoldering. There are some threads around here, and you can find videos on youtube.

Okay, cool, thanks for this very helpful information! So I guess I can go with only one set then. :)

The ultimate goal will be that when people get the keyboard, they will have access to our open source UI and firmware, which will allow them to use either the default QWerty / ic07 layout or any other layout of their choice (the software will automatically do any compiling and hardware flashing necessary). The UI will be Windows only, XP and above. If you're running linux, you'll have to manually edit the firmware, compile it, and flash the teensy 2.0 controller manually.

Mouse buttons won't be a part of the software as far as I know. I am not sure how the Teensy would handle this, seems to me it would almost have to register as two pieces of hardware to achieve. As far as we know, at the very least 2 layers will be available to the end users. A default and function layer. If you'd like to know what the default currently is, I point you to the source, or to sit tight until I can make a prototype UI available which will allow the designing of any custom layout of your choice. Let me know if you have any questions as I would be glad to help!

Cheers,

OJ

I don't remember/know if there were any updates to this, but is the GUI still being developed? The Massdrop instructions page only references flashing the firmware using the Teensy Loader Application: I didn't see anything involving the GUI, or there even being a GUI in development. Is it just going to be released after launch?

apologies for the crosspost on deskauthority, but bisl asked me to do it. :)

Hey guys, I ordered 2 of the kits from massdrop. I also talked to Weyman @ wasdkeybaords.com (I have no affiliation with wasdkeyboards.com) because I want to get fancy laser etched keycaps with a custom pattern. here is what he said:

Quote

I didn't know Massdrop was going to run this. I put in an order myself today. We can definitely work something out for these kits. Pricing will be higher than a normal set due to the number of 1.5 keys needed. When we order in normal 104 key sets, so one of these sets would use up 6 sets worth of 1.5 keys. If there's some interest from at least several people, I can put together a new layout file for everyone to use specifically for the ErgoDox. For pricing, we would be looking at around $80 per set.

Do you need custom pattern laser etched keycaps? No. Will it make a cool keyboard cooler? Yes.. Yes it will.

@StaCT13 If you can get the source compiling okay, you could always edit the layouts directly in source. It's meticulous but straight-forward once you wrap your head around it. Here's an example of the default QWERTY layer: https://github.com/benblazak/ergodox-firmware/blob/master/src/keyboard/ergodox/layout/qwerty-kinesis-mod.c#L27-45

Btw guys, if I would want to add a second keyboard but with different options (other case, other switches, etc), I need to buy it again, right? Because if I update the quantity in my history, the options are the same for every keyboard.That would add shipping costs again. (Germany)Guess I will ask them! Thinking about getting a second kit with the other case.That way I can compare what suits me best, and the assembled keyboard with the case I don't want to keep somebody will probably buy I guess.

I'm sure you will be able to find a buyer wasabah. I'm leaning towards two kits so I can have one at work and one at home. I'm still debating if I want the full-hand or the standard cases, though.

I wish they'd put up a image for the aluminum case.

Work&Home: good idea.. damn! :DI'm also interested in the aluminium case. Especially with the hand rest, I think the feel might be nicer then the acrylic.If it looks cool I'll get one. They want to put up a picture in the next days.

It have a slope if you look at the side picture but it was easier to only model some flat spherical keycaps. Final keycap shape is not determined yet and my be left to the user.

Yes the headers are for connecting the 2 halves.

WTF. THis is really making me mad >:D

I have been really interested in the Ergodox forever and ever!

But I never, ever, ever clicked on this thread because the thread title does not say anything about ERGODOX so WHY would I click on this thread?! GRRR.

I would really love flat spherical keycaps or flat cylindrical, or all keycaps have a small slant. If having a slant, then the front of the keycap should be a little higher than the back. I know this works perfectly because I have a rubberdome keyboard with keycaps like that. They are awesome! (The keycaps, not the rubberdomes).

If all keycaps have same profile then the user may switch his keycaps around into any position they like any time they like. For example they could swap things around to try out COLEMAK or DVORAK layout. Or maybe just swap 2 keys with each other.

Having all keys be the same profile is Awesome.

Having all rows of keys be a different profile is rude and nonsensical.

I wish this was available in red switches.

Will this keyboard work with a PS/2 adapter?

If it works on PS/2 and has red switches then I will buy 2 or 3 of them depending on how much it will cost me to pay someone to assemble it for me. I absolutely cannot assemble it myself.

I don't mind spending the bucks to get 3 of them if the keyboard will do what I need it to do. Plus that way when the guy I hire to assemble them screws up my keyboard and gives it braindamage then I still have 2 left that will work out ;D

I know there's a plate there, but I thought I saw the pins in one of the pictures where it showed the bottom of the assembled keyboard... I zoomed it in some more (https://massdropinc.s3.amazonaws.com/img_bucket/ergo-dox-instruction/_W3T2121.jpg) and I guess you're right, it looks like they're not PCB mount.

So ErgoDox needs to be in the title, and the link to massdrop should probably be in a group buy page, in the group buy section. If you want your numbers to grow, post this where people will see it (buying sections of the forum). I'm in for one, and am going to send the info out to friends just in case they are interested.

Believe that is the case. I remember reading before that everything was created with the intention of the controller on the right half. May be able to get away with it on the left with a little hardware DIY/hacking.

I see no real reason to put the controller on the left side if you are not building a left hand only keyboard. And I didn't have a good look at the case either right now. But if it is layered wouldn't you be able to simply flip each layer upside down before putting them together to mirror the design?

I see no real reason to put the controller on the left side if you are not building a left hand only keyboard. And I didn't have a good look at the case either right now. But if it is layered wouldn't you be able to simply flip each layer upside down before putting them together to mirror the design?

Actually, flipping the Teensy is the easy part... You'd also need to put all the wires for the USB connector in the correct places, and make sure the communication between the halves ends up correct, and worst of all bend the IO-expander over backwards =P

I assume that if you solder it as it is (teensy on right side), flip it over, and remap all the keys, you can have teensy on the left. But the thick teensy is now on the bottom of the PCB and my case design does not account for that, especially all the cutout areas. I am sure it is doable if changes are made to the CAD files. But seems a lot of work for one special edge case.

Yes, you could do it, if you also mirror all the components on the right hand side to the left hand side. I.e. Teeny on left hand side and on the top of PCB, IO expander on right hand side and on top of PCB. The only layer you would need to swap is to move the right hand side mounting plate to left and vis versa. other layers stay where they are.

The USB code is from PJRC for now, and conforms to the keyboard USB Boot Spec - i.e. the computer sees it as a regular, normal USB keyboard. Real PS/2 adaptors should work, as far as I know. Passthrough adaptors (what the cheap ones usually are) almost certainly won't. I haven't tested either.

Also, if anyone was interested in removing the right hand side without any modding, and didn't mind an extra altoids can on their desk, I don't think it'd be hard to put a Teensy in one, having the USB come out one end, and the I2C TRRS jack come out the other. I think all you'd have to do inside is 1) insulate the unused contacts (obviously), and 2) wire in the resistors to pull up the I2C lines... :)

The USB code is from PJRC for now, and conforms to the keyboard USB Boot Spec - i.e. the computer sees it as a regular, normal USB keyboard. Real PS/2 adaptors should work, as far as I know.

Do u have any proof that these "real PS/2 adaptors" actually exist and where could I buy one?

Ppl keep talking about them but its like the Loch Ness Monster, everyone "knows" they exist but there is no proof.

I have already wasted many hours looking and I found lots and lots and lots of cheap adaptors to adapt a PS/2 keyboard to work on USB. They are really cheap. But trying to adapt a USB keyboard that is hostile to PS/2 seems like it is impossible. I am not saying it is electrically impossible, just saying that AFAICT nobody sells such adaptors. Either they never existed or they sold out long ago.

When the teensy controller gets upgraded to work on both USB and PS/2 like the controller in WASD, Rosewill, Filco, etc. etc. ad nauseum then I will happily buy 3 Ergodox and pay someone to put them together for me.

I might buy a 4th one to give to one of my friends who have hand pain.

Thanks Glod :) . Ya, it's based on the Kinesis layout, but I did change a few things. The function layer is based on that of the Arensito layout (though, I failed to mention that in the current version of the source). Here's a prettier picture of all the layers, just for reference. Similar things for all the currently compiled layouts can be found in the .zip files for the binaries (follow the link in the readme, here (https://github.com/benblazak/ergodox-firmware#downloading-binaries)).

[attachurl=1]

@TC:Lol, nope, no proof... and a quick search didn't turn up anything either, sorry :/ . I have no idea what the other keyboards you mention are using to make themselves work on both USB and PS/2, so I dunno what to tell you about that. Guess I can't be much help :/ .

Thanks Glod :) . Ya, it's based on the Kinesis layout, but I did change a few things. The function layer is based on that of the Arensito layout (though, I failed to mention that in the current version of the source). Here's a prettier picture of all the layers, just for reference. Similar things for all the currently compiled layouts can be found in the .zip files for the binaries (follow the link in the readme, here (https://github.com/benblazak/ergodox-firmware#downloading-binaries)).

@TC:Lol, nope, no proof... and a quick search didn't turn up anything either, sorry :/ . I have no idea what the other keyboards you mention are using to make themselves work on both USB and PS/2, so I dunno what to tell you about that. Guess I can't be much help :/ .

Ok so to press a function key on ErgoDox I must:1. Press a key to change the layer.2. Press whichever Function key I want.3. Press a key to the layer back.

Correct?

Basically it appears the ErgoDox is like a flat Kinesis Advantage with the function keys chopped off and the PS/2 connectivity removed.

I never understood why the Kinesis Advantage forces ppl to use that keywell design. It is great for ppl who want that. And the price is totally reasonable. But I have never craved, desired or wanted my keys in a keywell. I also absolutely do not want my wrist resting on that high point of the Kinesis Advantage keyboard. I would have certainly already bought a Kinesis Advantage if it was available in a flat version.

Does ergodox have footpedal support?

When I designed my ultimate dream keyboard in 2003 I put the shift keys down in the thumb area of Ergodox. And I left them in the original positions too. This greatly eases the transition of learning to use thumbs to shift. The trouble is that if I do that I lose 2 other extremely valuable keys.

In my design there were at least 12 keys in the middle of keyboard which could be assigned as whatever instead of the 6 of ergodox. For example Enter and Backspace could go into the middle area, leaving 2 keys available in thumb area for 2 shift keys. Just an example. I am not saying that ergodox positioning of enter or backspace are bad at all. I am just saying that an Ergonomic keyboard needs some flexibility to it so that ppl like me who crave thumb-shifting can be 100% satisfied.

For ppl who develop hand pain it is a common complaint that the pinky fingers get overused. Having to shift with my pinky fingers all the time hurts me. That is why I want to have the option of shifting with my thumbs.

Sadly there are no "spare" keys on the keyboard to allow easy ergonomical reassignment of keys. Even though there is a lot of room for extra keys in the middle.

Is there some simple solution I have overlooked that would allow me to have 4 shift keys? The original 2 + 2 for the thumbs? Without destroying the layout in some other way?

Keeping in mind that shifting and spacebar must be dead ez to actuate in all circumstances.

Do u have any proof that these "real PS/2 adaptors" actually exist and where could I buy one?

How about the famous blue cube (http://www.amazon.com/PS2-Keyboard-To-USB-Adapter/dp/B000BSJFJS/) adaptor? Works great with both my Model M and Kinesis Classic.

Show Image

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/21YWRCC1F7L._SL500_AA300_.jpg)

You are saying exactly what I have been saying over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over again for 10 years.

You can easily connect a PS/2 keyboard to ANY computer using a simple cheap adapter.

But you cannot connect a USB-only keyboard like Ergodox to a PS/2 computer.

So if you are only going to support one standard in your keyboard controller it only makes sense to support PS/2. Because as you showed, your blue cube adapter will allow it to connect to a computer that has its PS/2 ports amputated.

Of course, supporting both adds zero to the manufacturing costs so there is no reason not to support both. You downloaded your free opensource USB controller software and you can download some free opensource PS/2 controller software too.

We need the option to have an FN key be momentary (as opposed to toggle), or have 2 FN keys, one momentary, the other act like a toggle.

Regarding extra shift keys, I'm in the same boat. I have 4 shift keys in my Kinesis Advantage. I plan to get the ErgoDox with the full hand case, so I can install a pair of palm keys for shift. I think it has some extra positions in the matrix, if not, I will just piggyback wires off the existing shift keys, I've done it before. (http://geekhack.org/showwiki.php?title=Island:26579)

Note the arcade buttons in the palm area of my keyboard acting as shifts... I've added 8 keys total, but the palm keys get the most use:

There are both layer shift and layer lock keys on the default QWERTY layout. And if you don't like where something is, you can always reassign it anywhere you like. Please read the documentation, it took a long time to write.

As far as footpedals go, they're entirely possible - but they'd be DIY.

As for PS/2 support: The USB portion of the code is from PJRC. I haven't had time to rewrite it myself (though, I think the original author did a pretty good job). I know of one or two other libraries I could have used, but they looked harder to work with, and none of them supported PS/2. The rest of the code I wrote myself, in my free time, for free (and fun :) ). Please don't ever tell a developer that (to paraphrase) they downloaded their free open source code, and they really should go downloaded a different one. It's quite a bit insulting.

There are both layer shift and layer lock keys on the default QWERTY layout.

Ok good to know :)

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As for PS/2 support: The USB portion of the code is from PJRC. I haven't had time to rewrite it myself (though, I think the original author did a pretty good job). I know of one or two other libraries I could have used, but they looked harder to work with, and none of them supported PS/2. The rest of the code I wrote myself, in my free time, for free (and fun :) ). Please don't ever tell a developer that (to paraphrase) they downloaded their free open source code, and they really should go downloaded a different one. It's quite a bit insulting.

I apologize if I did not word things well. I'm dying. I'm on hardcore drugz. I am wiped out tired. My POS Rosewill keyboard keeps flashing lights at me and doing freaky things (like eating my keys or making the alt key get stuck even though I never pressed the Alt key in the first place, etc.) Its hard for me to concentrate tbh. I am really sorry. I didn't mean to be insulting. :-[

I didn't mean u should replace the code you have. Your code obviously works so no need to change it AFAICT. I just meant that there surely must be free PS/2 controller code floating around somewhere that could be added in, in addition to the USB code, given that PS/2 has been around for 30 years (or however long, I think PS/2 is actually just a shrunken DIN5 which has been around way longer than 30 years).

I have a vague memory that I saw a PS/2 controller somewhere... it was probably on opencores.org

I will offer you a $200.00 bribe :) but u can call it a bounty :) to add PS/2 support to the controller. I am sorry that I cannot offer more but I don't have an ergodox, and there is no guarantee that I will ever get one, or that it will really and truly allow me to begin coding again. Also if I get an Ergodox it might cost a really HUGE amount of money to pay someone to put it together for me. Nobody has actually offered to put it together for me at any price. I absolutely cannot ever build one myself. I can barely sit in a chair and shove the mouse around. No way I can do anything more complicated than that. But I can send $$$ with AmazonPay.

Maybe a couple of extras. He recently switched his pricing to EUR instead of USD, so keep that in mind. The_Ed is selling his for 50 cents each plus shipping and Paypal fees. I've bought a bunch from him already for DIY pokers and the like. They do appear to be new, save for being desoldered.

Either PCB mount or plate mount would work, the ergodox PCB can accommodate both kinds (which is awesome). PCB mount might be better IMO, since they have a pair of strong plastic pins which go into additional holes of the PCB, making the construction sturdier.However PCB-mount switches usually cost a bit more.I think the keyboard has 76 keys, so 80 should be enough to cover any accidents, although I notice the massdrop assembly instructions mention they provide 88.

I apologize if I did not word things well. I'm dying. I'm on hardcore drugz. I am wiped out tired. My POS Rosewill keyboard keeps flashing lights at me and doing freaky things (like eating my keys or making the alt key get stuck even though I never pressed the Alt key in the first place, etc.) Its hard for me to concentrate tbh. I am really sorry. I didn't mean to be insulting. :-[

Thanks... I'm sorry too. I guess I'm a bit touchy at the moment, probably because of some of the more heated discussions that happened over on DT a little bit ago. I should have been more patient :/

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I didn't mean u should replace the code you have. Your code obviously works so no need to change it AFAICT. I just meant that there surely must be free PS/2 controller code floating around somewhere that could be added in, in addition to the USB code, given that PS/2 has been around for 30 years (or however long, I think PS/2 is actually just a shrunken DIN5 which has been around way longer than 30 years).

I have a vague memory that I saw a PS/2 controller somewhere... it was probably on opencores.org

I will offer you a $200.00 bribe :) but u can call it a bounty :) to add PS/2 support to the controller. I am sorry that I cannot offer more but I don't have an ergodox, and there is no guarantee that I will ever get one, or that it will really and truly allow me to begin coding again. Also if I get an Ergodox it might cost a really HUGE amount of money to pay someone to put it together for me. Nobody has actually offered to put it together for me at any price. I absolutely cannot ever build one myself. I can barely sit in a chair and shove the mouse around. No way I can do anything more complicated than that. But I can send $$$ with AmazonPay.

Your bribe (*cough* bounty, lol) is very generous :) . And if it really means that much to you, I'd be very tempted to do it for free, if I could. Unfortunately, my main problem is that I don't have *time* :/ or enough domain knowledge to do it quickly. This weekend I have work, the next two weeks I'm visiting my grandparents (who I can't very well neglect, lol), and for most of the next few months after that I'll be back in school... And as I've never dealt with PS/2 before (or USB, for that matter, which is why I'm still using a library), or many of the Teensy functions a PS/2 library would be using (interrupts and timers come to mind), I don't think my chances of success in any reasonable amount of time would be good. In fact, I had an experience not that long ago trying to integrate code I didn't have time to understand when I tried to get mousekeys into the firmware. There's a nice library for making the Teensy emulate a mouse, and lots of other people have done it - but I couldn't figure it out at the time, and I still haven't had time to go back and make it work. So, I'm sorry... but I'm sure you can understand.

That being said, if anyone else wants to try, my code is up on github (https://github.com/benblazak/ergodox-firmware) (though the unstable branch is in the middle of somewhat of a rewrite), and I'll do my best to help you out where I can. I also found this project (http://ps2avr.sourceforge.net), which might be worth checking out. More searching might turn up something better.

In the meantime, I was able to find an active USB -> PS/2 converter (http://www.amazon.com/StarTech-Keyboard-Mouse-Adapter-PS22USB/dp/B0055PKVZY) :) . It's crazy expensive, and it only has one (very bad...) review... but lol, at least it's proof they exist :) .

As for people willing to do assembly, here's a portion of Dorkvader's mass PM, which was sent out just recently:

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For those interested in a fully assembled product, below are a list of people on GH willing to help. PM and coordinate with them for a quote.

I apologize if I did not word things well. I'm dying. I'm on hardcore drugz. I am wiped out tired. My POS Rosewill keyboard keeps flashing lights at me and doing freaky things (like eating my keys or making the alt key get stuck even though I never pressed the Alt key in the first place, etc.) Its hard for me to concentrate tbh. I am really sorry. I didn't mean to be insulting. :-[

Thanks... I'm sorry too. I guess I'm a bit touchy at the moment, probably because of some of the more heated discussions that happened over on DT a little bit ago. I should have been more patient :/

Quote

I didn't mean u should replace the code you have. Your code obviously works so no need to change it AFAICT. I just meant that there surely must be free PS/2 controller code floating around somewhere that could be added in, in addition to the USB code, given that PS/2 has been around for 30 years (or however long, I think PS/2 is actually just a shrunken DIN5 which has been around way longer than 30 years).

I have a vague memory that I saw a PS/2 controller somewhere... it was probably on opencores.org

I will offer you a $200.00 bribe :) but u can call it a bounty :) to add PS/2 support to the controller. I am sorry that I cannot offer more but I don't have an ergodox, and there is no guarantee that I will ever get one, or that it will really and truly allow me to begin coding again. Also if I get an Ergodox it might cost a really HUGE amount of money to pay someone to put it together for me. Nobody has actually offered to put it together for me at any price. I absolutely cannot ever build one myself. I can barely sit in a chair and shove the mouse around. No way I can do anything more complicated than that. But I can send $$$ with AmazonPay.

Your bribe (*cough* bounty, lol) is very generous :) . And if it really means that much to you, I'd be very tempted to do it for free, if I could.

It does mean a lot to me and it means a lot to various other ppl out there who are reading this msg but are like I was, they are in READONLY mode and are unable to type due to their hands being trashed.

The bountybribe offer is good for 1 year. After that we'll see. You can ask. If I can finish my current keyboard building project and my drugz keep working and my doctor doesn't quit and I don't die or have yet another pain attack then I might disappear into my codercave and never be seen on geekhack again.

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Unfortunately, my main problem is that I don't have *time* :/ or enough domain knowledge to do it quickly. This weekend I have work, the next two weeks I'm visiting my grandparents (who I can't very well neglect, lol), and for most of the next few months after that I'll be back in school... And as I've never dealt with PS/2 before (or USB, for that matter, which is why I'm still using a library), or many of the Teensy functions a PS/2 library would be using (interrupts and timers come to mind), I don't think my chances of success in any reasonable amount of time would be good.

I was not expecting any progress for at least 3 months. Long after the group buy is over. That is why I was saying it may never benefit me in any way.

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In fact, I had an experience not that long ago trying to integrate code I didn't have time to understand when I tried to get mousekeys into the firmware. There's a nice library for making the Teensy emulate a mouse, and lots of other people have done it - but I couldn't figure it out at the time, and I still haven't had time to go back and make it work. So, I'm sorry... but I'm sure you can understand.

Coding alien systems is a batch. And I don't mean it like a file of script commands :))

Anywayz no pressure. If u feel like tackling it u will and if not then I just saved myself $200.00 which is enough for me to get that new Front-printed Filco I have been eyeing :)

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In the meantime, I was able to find an active USB -> PS/2 converter (http://www.amazon.com/StarTech-Keyboard-Mouse-Adapter-PS22USB/dp/B0055PKVZY) :) . It's crazy expensive, and it only has one (very bad...) review... but lol, at least it's proof they exist :) .

If it doesn't even work then it doesn't exist. :)

I like how it says my brand new Intel core i5 is a legacy system :))

I don't really know how the USB protocol messages work but reading some msgs from guys who do know, they said it would be really complicated to make a working active adapter like that. It is really just better to buy a keyboard that is compatible with USB and PS/2, like Filco, WASD, CoolerMaster, Rosewill, etc.

@TC If you have an i5 I bet the computer has USB ports. Why don't you simply use a USB port to connect the ErgoDox?Why is PS/2 sooooo important that you won't even use a great ergonomic keyboard to help your health issues if it doesn't support it? Please educate us here.

Either PCB mount or plate mount would work, the ergodox PCB can accommodate both kinds (which is awesome). PCB mount might be better IMO, since they have a pair of strong plastic pins which go into additional holes of the PCB, making the construction sturdier.However PCB-mount switches usually cost a bit more.I think the keyboard has 76 keys, so 80 should be enough to cover any accidents, although I notice the massdrop assembly instructions mention they provide 88.

More than anything else, the pins give the switch the proper orientation. One thing I noticed with the Phantom plate was that the switches could rotate slightly, especially the keys that had multiple positions (mods, space, etc). This is a problem for stabilized keys, especially space, which can't afford any rotation at all.

Anybody else having problems with paypal checkout on massdrop? I get a few different errors, but the main one seems to be "total not set" and it prints the array that's passed by the order page on screen and you can in fact see that the total is 0.

Man, 34 orders plus 12 committed to 199 aint bad for having more than 15 days left, I'm getting it no matter what so i'm pulling out the popcorn and watching this progress until the group buy date closes :)

i had no problems with paypal btw.. they just send a notice that the processing is pending with massdrop and wont be billed until that is over.

The PayPal API has returned an error!TIMESTAMP: 2013-01-12T22:47:45ZACK: FailureVERSION: 65.1BUILD: 4181146L_ERRORCODE0: 10400L_SHORTMESSAGE0: Transaction refused because of an invalid argument. See additional error messages for details.L_LONGMESSAGE0: Order total is missing.L_SEVERITYCODE0: Error

More than anything else, the pins give the switch the proper orientation. One thing I noticed with the Phantom plate was that the switches could rotate slightly, especially the keys that had multiple positions (mods, space, etc). This is a problem for stabilized keys, especially space, which can't afford any rotation at all.

ErgoDox doesn't use any stabliizers, and the assembly instructions have you mount the keyswitches in the plate before soldering them in place, so they should be locked into proper position when soldered. That said, if you still prefer PCB-pegged keyswitches, you can join the GB sans switches and source your own switches in some other GB or elsewhere.

The PayPal API has returned an error!TIMESTAMP: 2013-01-12T22:47:45ZACK: FailureVERSION: 65.1BUILD: 4181146L_ERRORCODE0: 10400L_SHORTMESSAGE0: Transaction refused because of an invalid argument. See additional error messages for details.L_LONGMESSAGE0: Order total is missing.L_SEVERITYCODE0: Error

Try clearing your cookies, or at least delete cookies for massdrop.com and paypal.com. Also make sure your browser settings aren't blocking third-party cookies; not sure if that's even relevant, but it's something to try.

"The best way to do this is to have you check out normally and notify one of our live chat reps so they can put a note on the transaction saying to only collect payment for the PCB ($44 shipped to your door).

Let me know what works best for you,

- Will"

They really are bending over backwards. I'm sure everyone probably checking both posts, but just in case I'll pop it up in the other one too.

Okay, I think I managed to get in the group buy. I got the paypal confirmation email in any case. Is it suppose to show up in my purchase history, or is that only once the group buy actually completes?

Just curious about whether it should be listed there as people mentioned being able to change your order (i.e. switch type or such) up until the group buy completes, but not sure where that would be done without something in my purchase history to be able to fiddle with.

Now that the keyboard is soon in hand, it's time to start looking for a wrist rest for split keyboard. I was think about getting some soft wrist rest for it. I am kinda hoping it would be possible to get something that would put the weight on the palmsrather than the wrists like with the truly ergonomic keyboard and the kinesis advantage. Maybe two mouse wrist rests will dothe trick? Ideas anyone?

Folks, the debate here is about PS/2. Even if PS/2 is better in some technical aspects, the reality is that it makes no real difference to the user (unless you have 10+ year old computer). So if one has to choose between 2 similar keyboards, one with PS/2 capability is preferable, but with unique keyboards like the ErgoDox it's really not worth to worry about it.I was hoping TC would explain why lack of PS/2 is a total deal breaker for him.

Now that the keyboard is soon in hand, it's time to start looking for a wrist rest for split keyboard. I was think about getting some soft wrist rest for it. I am kinda hoping it would be possible to get something that would put the weight on the palmsrather than the wrists like with the truly ergonomic keyboard and the kinesis advantage. Maybe two mouse wrist rests will dothe trick? Ideas anyone?

Now that the keyboard is soon in hand, it's time to start looking for a wrist rest for split keyboard. I was think about getting some soft wrist rest for it. I am kinda hoping it would be possible to get something that would put the weight on the palmsrather than the wrists like with the truly ergonomic keyboard and the kinesis advantage. Maybe two mouse wrist rests will dothe trick? Ideas anyone?

I'm thinking about a pair of http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/3M-Gel-Mouse-Trackball-Wrist-Rest-Black-Leatherette-/370723084235?pt=US_Mouse_Pads_Wrist_Rests&hash=item5650d157cb

Or one big http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/3M-WR314LE-KEYBOARD-WRIST-REST-ERGO-SPLIT-GEL-BLACK-LEATHERETTE-THIN-/300595068203?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item45fcdcbd2b

Now that the keyboard is soon in hand, it's time to start looking for a wrist rest for split keyboard. I was think about getting some soft wrist rest for it. I am kinda hoping it would be possible to get something that would put the weight on the palmsrather than the wrists like with the truly ergonomic keyboard and the kinesis advantage. Maybe two mouse wrist rests will dothe trick? Ideas anyone?

Is my wrist rest case design not available from massdrop?

As far as I know it is. This is your design, yes?:(https://s3.amazonaws.com/massdropinc/product-images/fullhandcase.jpeg)

Now that the keyboard is soon in hand, it's time to start looking for a wrist rest for split keyboard. I was think about getting some soft wrist rest for it. I am kinda hoping it would be possible to get something that would put the weight on the palmsrather than the wrists like with the truly ergonomic keyboard and the kinesis advantage. Maybe two mouse wrist rests will dothe trick? Ideas anyone?

Is my wrist rest case design not available from massdrop?

It is available, but I wanted something soft. I guess I could just add one of these: http://www.amazon.com/GRIFITI-Notebook-Silicone-Reposition-Travelling/dp/B00897D3OQ/ref=pd_sbs_pc_1to it, but I think that a separate palm rest would be better for me.

It is available, but I wanted something soft. I guess I could just add one of these: http://www.amazon.com/GRIFITI-Notebook-Silicone-Reposition-Travelling/dp/B00897D3OQ/ref=pd_sbs_pc_1to it, but I think that a separate palm rest would be better for me.

You know, I was originally against the wrist rest case design for exactly this reason--the balls of my wrists ("pisiform," I believe) get really sore when typing on a hard surface. So when seeing litster's wrist rest case design, I thought "Not for me! I need a soft rest."

However!

The more I think about it, the more I love that design because you can put a soft rest ON it, which does two things:1) It provides extra height, which begins to approximate the Kinesis Advantage's keywell design.2) Since the soft rest will sit on the case itself, this will help keep them positioned at a uniform distance from one another, in comparison to my current filco/kensington setup, which I constantly fiddle with.

The Ergodox is not my idea of my dream keyboard. It simply appears to be less crazy than a Kinesis Advantage and it seems like it is made by ppl who are actually trying to solve a problem. Since they seem like they are trying I am willing to go ahead and spend the bucks to buy it and pay someone to put it together for me if someone will fix the USB/PS/2 issue.

Just because I am willing to take a risk on something does not mean it is perfect for me. It just means I am open minded and willing to give it a try and willing to help the project out.

> How could it possibly not help you?

1. The thumb buttons are built into the hand buttons. I never asked for that and don't exactly want it due to this makes the keyboard as a whole take up a huge amount of deskspace. This means the keyboard either: A) Won't work for me. B) Will work for me but it will always be hanging off the edge of my lapmat or the edge of my rollerdesk and eventually will fall off and break.

> Why can't you just be like me and keep your keyboard on a normal GDMF Desk?!

Because I don't live a life of luxury and decadent pleasure like you. I am dying of pain. I can't use a keyboard PERIOD unless a huge number of strict rules are followed. Rule #13 The keyboard shall not be any higher than neccessary or extreme arm pain shall cause paralysis or death.

Maybe there is some luxurious larger desk than this little thing I am using, that would have infinitely adjustable height like this... but I don't have it and I don't know how much such a thing costs or where to get it. I just recently gained the ability to do online shopping so there are probably an infinite number of little thingamajigs that u know about that I don't.

Ok so even if I had the most perfect desk in the universe it still doesn't mean an ergodox will work for me because it just looks like the Ergodox intrudes greatly into my mouse space.

> Oh dear God, he's going to quote another rule...

Yes I am :)

Under: Attempting to use a computerRule #1. Don'tRule #2. If you break Rule#1 then you MUST keep the mouse right in front of you. None of this nonsense keeping the mouse way up on a tall desk out beyond your numeric keypad.

I have to be hyper ergonomic at all times to even use my computer a little bit. If I had not come up with all these strict rules of Ergomania then I would not be here on GeekHack. I wouldn't be alive or I would still be in READONLY mode like I was for years just watching the world go by like a Dolphin, unable to use my hands.

So yes, Ergodox allegedly lets me shift with my thumbs. That is kewl. And it is flat unlike Kinesis Advantage. That is great. But it consumes large amounts of deskspace. It uses a grid layout. I never asked for that and never thought I would like it. Normal layout is ok for me.

Ergodox also uses a split layout with a really huge split. The only split keyboard I ever used before hurt me a lot but that is because it was some crappy fake "ergo" rubberdome keyboard with typical way overstiff rubberdomes that required a wildly painful impact in order to register a keypress. I am just hoping that my pain will be ok with the split and the grid of the ergodox.

I know I can handle a small split. But the Ergodox split is hugely gigantamongous. For me, its a risk.

If I stick with the Cherry Red keyboards I have now then I get real Function keys. I have coding stuff set up on my function keys so I can press a single button to trigger some text. On Ergodox I hafta press 2 keys. (2x the keys = 2x the pain) I only get to press a certain number of keys per day before the pain gets to high. I don't even know how SHIFT+F1 would work... I think to use the temp Layer key would require too much finger gymnastics which would hurt my hand immediately so that leaves using the Layer Switch key (whatever its called) but then I have to 1. Switch layer 2. Press SHIFT+1 3. Switch back to original layer. So that is 4 keypresses instead of 2. Some of the macros would no longer really be worth it.

What if shifting with my thumbs doesn't work out for me? I would like to be able to shift with my fingers in the middle of keyboard. I need extra keys in the center of the board that are freely definable. In my dream keyboard there are at least 4 columns of keys in the center of the board. I have been wanting that since 2003. But Ergodox has only 2 columns and some of the keys are critically important layer keys and cannot be done away with.

> Dude, you can like totally redefine the layer keys to be shift keys.

How do you know it actually works? Have u tried it? What if there is a bug in the controller software so that you can redefine any key you want except the layer keys? That is exactly the kind of bug/limitation I would expect.

If I could redefine the layer keys to be elsewhere, which other keys would I destroy? This is why a keyboard needs a few extra keys on it so you don't get jammed up just because you want some extra shift keys.

You see, switching to Ergodox is a risk.

Now you can see why there is only a 50% chance of Ergodox actually helping me.

If I stick to my brand new (complete garbage currently being held together with scotch tape) Rosewill then I at least get my cherry red switches with a beautiful spring under every key that works on PS/2 and I get 12 function keys and a whole entire numeric keypad filled with keys that I can redefine to do special things. In fact, writing this msg has given me a great idea how to make an ergo keyboard out of a normal keyboard without having to pay someone thousands of $$$ to build my dream keyboard! Wow! Thank u Sordna for harassing me into writing this! ;D My new idea does not replace my dream keyboard but it might possibly maybe be "barely good enough" for me to squeak by with.

TC, i think you should have brought that and other posts into a separate thread. This thread is here for the interest, development, testing, and construction of the ErgoDox. Over the last year, feedback and interest was fielded by talented individuals that collectively made the final product. I have nothing but respect for the people involved in the Phantom, GH60, and ErgoDox projects.

This project's development is open source; you have had the honor of been given resources directly from the team and if you acquire a ErgoDox you are free to do and share whatever you want to do with it.

If you want to be critical of the ErgoDox and split keyboard designs, i wouldn't suggest doing that here, i would create a new thread doing so.

If you want to be critical of keyboards that do not support PS/2 such as Topre and others then also create a thread doing so instead of doing that in a unrelated thread. Creating a new thread is easy and there are multiple forums with different categories to create threads in. You are likely to get more accomplished in a new thread about your concerns than in posts you drop in on.

The MassDrop GB seems to be a success, and people who are new to geekhack who were brought here by interest in the ErgoDox are going to see your posts in here and feel less inclined to participate altogether. This is exactly what happened lately in the Deskthority.net thread; things were very constructive in the thread and then it went to hell and actually caused people to loose interest in the ErgoDox the way i see it; thankfully DorkVader came to action.

I am not trying to "troll" you and get you worked up but you have insulted me, you have insulted ic07, and i am 100% sure you have insulted other members of geekhack and the ergodox project with your last few posts in this thread.

Please keep this thread about the interest, construction, and testing of the ErgoDox. It is located in the "making stuff together!" area for a reason. Do not post threads that will discourage new/existing geekhack members of participating in these discussions. Please create new threads related to your arguments and field interest from others that share your views.

No offense man, but for someone dying of typing-related pain, you sure type a lot in here.

Your criticisms are noteworthy, but this design is beyond finalized; rather than picking apart the ErgoDox, it might be time to start conceiving an ErgoChaos offshoot in a different thread. The Ergodox is a great advancement, but it wasn't tailor-made for you and you shouldn't treat it as such. I don't mean to shut you down, but your posts here are proving unproductive.

1. The thumb buttons are built into the hand buttons. I never asked for that and don't exactly want it due to this makes the keyboard as a whole take up a huge amount of deskspace. This means the keyboard either: A) Won't work for me. B) Will work for me but it will always be hanging off the edge of my lapmat or the edge of my rollerdesk and eventually will fall off and break.

Your definition of huge is a bit weird. The roller board can handle a 15' laptop right, by my estimate it should also fit the keyboard although someone that actually have the dimensionsof the keyboard must confirm this.

Rule #13 The keyboard shall not be any higher than neccessary or extreme arm pain shall cause paralysis or death.

It would probably be cheaper to just buy an adjustable desk, for example this one: http://www.amazon.com/Safco-1925CY-Adjustable-Workstation-Laminate/dp/B001MS70T8/ref=sr_1_9?s=office-products&ie=UTF8&qid=1358113226&sr=1-9&keywords=height+adjustable+desk

How do you know it actually works? Have u tried it? What if there is a bug in the controller software so that you can redefine any key you want except the layer keys? That is exactly the kind of bug/limitation I would expect.

The board is built with a teensy microcontroller. If there is a bug in the software you can replace the software since the source is available. Looking at the source, it should be possible to change the layer keys. If there actually is a bug the rest of us would want to know about it and fix it.If there is a problem with the teensy then 1) you might be eligable for a refund, and 2) they cost 16$.

Because PS/2 keyboards work on everything.USB keyboards do not work on everything.

And as a free added bonus PS/2 is better than USB 1.1

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Need more than 6KRO?

It is a very nice feature. And I respect nice features. It says to me "This keyboard is WORTH the $800.00 you paid for it". But whatever.

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Legacy pass-through devices,

Yes. This is required.

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or using it on an old system?

Yes. This is required.

Why is it an issue for you that you need the PS/2 broken?

Why can't u let me have my PS/2 and be happy?

Rosewill is one of the worst keyboard companies around and they let me have PS/2. Why not u?

I have a gazillion computers and they all have PS/2 ports. All my KVM switches have PS/2 ports. They all work. I have never had a PS/2 port fail yet.

If I take my USB 1.1 ergodox to the factory to use it on the robots, oh wait I CAN'T use it because it won't work on PS/2 so forget that idea. That means I have just spent months training my hands to use Ergodox for nothing because I still have to keep switching back and forth from 1 keyboard to another.

Part of Ergonomics is training your muscle memory to be really good with the keyboard you are using. If I keep randomly switching between 11 different keyboards I will never get any good at any of them. Pick something good, stick with it and get good at it.

Remember I am not like you. I can't play keyboard games all day long. I am crippled with pain. I get a limited amount of keystrokes. When I first start to learn Ergodox layout it is going to hurt a lot. Why would I invest in learning a keyboard that doesn't actually work on millions of PS/2 devices?

I am trying to reduce my pain, not increase it. That means pick the best keyboard I can get and learn that one keyboard and use that ONE keyboard on everything all the time until something better comes along.

> Dude, you can like totally redefine the layer keys to be shift keys.

How do you know it actually works? Have u tried it? What if there is a bug in the controller software so that you can redefine any key you want except the layer keys? That is exactly the kind of bug/limitation I would expect.

If I could redefine the layer keys to be elsewhere, which other keys would I destroy? This is why a keyboard needs a few extra keys on it so you don't get jammed up just because you want some extra shift keys.

You see, switching to Ergodox is a risk.

From looking at the code, as far as I can tell, they define every key function from a matrix, and then assign them to their proper positions. This means that every key is arbitrarily assigned, generally speaking it should mean that if it works at all, it will work other ways, too. The function key position is not hardcoded, because no key is hardcoded. Even on my access-IS keyboards, you can arbitrarily assign the function keys. When I get my ErgoDOX, I fully plan on testing out some interesting custom layouts. Moving the function layer-swap key is a useful thing that I'm certain I'll try. I also want to play with a layout with my most-used Function keys on it without the need for pressing a fn key to get them. This is one of the many good parts about a programmable keyboard.

And even if not, one of the best parts about open-source projects is that people can see what's there and fix bugs when they arise and are reported. This is pretty useful, especially if you offer bounties.

Also, why PS2? I don't think it has it now, but there is certainly a possibility of making this NKRO over USB, like what my soarer adapter does with my model F. I recognize it's good to have your preference, but I'm interested to know the reason.

---Also about active USB to PS2 adapters, you may be able to use a KVM box for that. I don't have one, but it seems feasible. One reason they're so expensive is dealing with

If you want to be critical of the ErgoDox and split keyboard designs, i wouldn't suggest doing that here, i would create a new thread doing so.

I am not trying to be critical of the ErgoDox.I was just answering questions that ppl keep repeatedly bombing me with. Sordna asked me multiple times about the PS/2 thing in multiple different threads for example and then some other guys did too. So I finally answered.

Don't think of it as some sort of crucifixion of ErgoDox in my previous msgs.

Think of it as me explaining that I really actually want to try an ErgoDox but I am in a specific situation and I answered ppl's questions to the best of my ability to explain this and that and the other.

If a mod wants to transfer the question that was asked of me and my "critical" response into a separate thread because some rule got broken or whatever then that is ok with me as long as the new thread maintains a logical coherency.

I am sorry that you feel I have polluted your thread. But when I refuse to answer ppl's interrogations they get mad at me and say I am being evasive.This has happened to me over and over again on GH.

Then when I answer they get mad at me and accuse me of insulting them or whatever thing they get mad about.

I just can't win. :(

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If you want to be critical of keyboards that do not support PS/2 such as Topre and others then also create a thread doing so instead of doing that in a unrelated thread. Creating a new thread is easy and there are multiple forums with different categories to create threads in. You are likely to get more accomplished in a new thread about your concerns than in posts you drop in on.

I will take that under consideration.

But I have a question: What are u going to do when the next person comes along who says "I am interested in an Ergodox but _____" ?Are you going to give this same speech to every person?Or is it something personal against me? Or ?

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The MassDrop GB seems to be a success, and people who are new to geekhack who were brought here by interest in the ErgoDox are going to see your posts in here and feel less inclined to participate altogether. This is exactly what happened lately in the Deskthority.net thread; things were very constructive in the thread and then it went to hell and actually caused people to loose interest in the ErgoDox the way i see it; thankfully DorkVader came to action.

I am not trying to "troll" you and get you worked up but you have insulted me,

I think you have misunderstood something. I like u and would not insult u.You have a Mark VII Glue Gun (+12 vs. Rosewills) ;D

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you have insulted ic07,

GRRR

I insulted ic07?!?

I offered him $200.00 to add PS/2 support to ErgoDox even though this will likely never benefit me.... I am just throwing $200.00 into the project and now u say I am insulting him!???