If this is your first visit, be sure to
check out the FAQ by clicking the
link above. You may have to register
before you can post: click the register link above to proceed. To start viewing messages,
select the forum that you want to visit from the selection below.

You haven't posted anything yet. To participate in our discussions, you can create a new thread of reply to existing ones. We'd love to hear from you and value your WW2 knowledge.

Re: German Re-enactment in Eastern Canada

Originally Posted by Chevan

But you meet there not to fight and kill each other, right?Should be the other reason..

Well, if one is going to re-enact a battle from a particular War, one must have an enemy to engage in Mock combat. Other than that, I am pretty sure that the only thing getting "killed" are bottles of Cheer.

Re: German Re-enactment in Eastern Canada

Originally Posted by Chevan

He meant to use the afro-americans as a slaves in their fascinating games?

Oh no. Carlin was pretty leftist and was making fun of the notion of spending a lot of time reenacting battles which has always been traditionally big here. There are Afro-American reenactors as well as there were "colored units" mainly on the Union side, but the Confederate one as well as the South became more desperate...

Re: German Re-enactment in Eastern Canada

Originally Posted by Chevan

I don't know whether the nazis attraction phenomenon has been researched but i know for sure the manies gays love to use the nazis symbolic. No , i don't want to say all the nazis researches are gays , but for those who find the ss-style romantic and glamoure- there is definitelly the reason to think about

The Brownshirts were the real gay Nazis, almost openly gay in some respects. They of course lost out to the SS in the power-struggles (probably having little to do with Ernst Rohm's homosexuality - as it's clear that Hitler almost certainly knew of it). Himmler was wholly ineffectual as any sort of military leader, but he was rather skilled and ruthless as a political opportunist building his power-base...

I think singling homoerotism with the Nazi SS uniforms is a bit of a stretch. There also seems to be almost a science fiction aspect as well as an "underdog" phenomena as seeing the SS as high tech (which wasn't always the case) and ultra skilled warriors fighting against impossible odds by internet fanbois. Of course, much of it is bullshat as the SS still used pack animals and were dependent on rail for their logistics as compared to the Allies that were almost wholly motorized.

Re: German Re-enactment in Eastern Canada

Originally Posted by Chevan

Cześć mate Kovalski, nice to see you again

I think that even SS were a brilliant warriors only relatively short time till the 1943 when the Himler has opened the SS for all sort of criminals and extremists. There comes on scene the Waffen-SS whose moral principles often were out of human limits and whose wish to fight has been determined only by their fear of retrebution for commited war crimes. I mean such sort of warriors like Bronislav Kaminski or Oskar Dirlewanger , whose "methods" and moral principles literally shocked the von Guderian.

....

There is also the bitter reminiscences of the German regular Army (Heer) soldiers and officers that saw the Waffen-SS as overrated idiots and even thinly veiled cowards. Antony Beevor (your favorite author ) writes in Ardennes 1944: The Battle of the Bulge that the SS often tended to conduct "tactical withdrawals" without notifying their Army "comrades" often leaving them holding the bag and even causing premature collapses in the face of U.S. counterattacks. The SS did often receive the newest and the prettiest equipment, but they were also self-important prriick's that were "too crucial to the war effort" to stand and fight, and often just wantonly retreated. Heer senior officers were also disdainful of the SS senior officers as hacks and military-idiots that were more often than not incompetent and whom were often unjustifiably, arrogantly disdainful of Heer and Luftwaffe ground forces...

Re: German Re-enactment in Eastern Canada

Originally Posted by Nickdfresh

There is also the bitter reminiscences of the German regular Army (Heer) soldiers and officers that saw the Waffen-SS as overrated idiots and even thinly veiled cowards. Antony Beevor (your favorite author ) writes in Ardennes 1944: The Battle of the Bulge that the SS often tended to conduct "tactical withdrawals" without notifying their Army "comrades" often leaving them holding the bag and even causing premature collapses in the face of U.S. counterattacks. The SS did often receive the newest and the prettiest equipment, but they were also self-important prriick's that were "too crucial to the war effort" to stand and fight, and often just wantonly retreated. Heer senior officers were also disdainful of the SS senior officers as hacks and military-idiots that were more often than not incompetent and whom were often unjustifiably, arrogantly disdainful of Heer and Luftwaffe ground forces...

.... a brilliant worlds!!!! Really Beevor could write this? Doesn't look like his style. But, he is rather fascinating novelist then historian..

Re: German Re-enactment in Eastern Canada

Originally Posted by Nickdfresh

Himmler was wholly ineffectual as any sort of military leader, but he was rather skilled and ruthless as a political opportunist building his power-base...

Yeah , his "military genious" show it full size in "operation Nortwind". When after effective conter-offensive , as it has been reported to the Hitler, SS and heer lost twice more soldiers then the "defeated" allies

There also seems to be almost a science fiction aspect as well as an "underdog" phenomena as seeing the SS as high tech (which wasn't always the case) and ultra skilled warriors fighting against impossible odds..

The irony of fate was that when the SS really have faced the "impossible odds" in 1944-45 , their military incompetence and cowardice bacome absolutly clear for all the wermacht

Re: German Re-enactment in Eastern Canada

Originally Posted by tankgeezer

Well, if one is going to re-enact a battle from a particular War, one must have an enemy to engage in Mock combat. Other than that, I am pretty sure that the only thing getting "killed" are bottles of Cheer.

But what is sence in mock combat? I can understand the meeting when the people enjoing by the test of the firearms or watching the german weaponry like stg44, Tiger or bf-109.Germans has made a lot of excellent weapon which get a real pleasure to hold in arms, to test, or merely watch it in action.We all like the technical things, aren't we? But what make the adult man to spend their rare free time by dressing the ..uniform and do some strange actions which is called the mock battle? The mystery for me

Re: German Re-enactment in Eastern Canada

Originally Posted by Nickdfresh

There is also the bitter reminiscences of the German regular Army (Heer) soldiers and officers that saw the Waffen-SS as overrated idiots and even thinly veiled cowards.

I think I posted this somewhere on the forum many years ago, but my father knew an Australian Army officer who was a POW of the Germans. I'm getting rusty on the details, but essentially the Australian POW was in a train on a siding when a trainload of Waffen SS ended up stopped in a siding (or the main line) while a trainload of Heer infantry ended up stopped on the main line (or in a siding). Verbal abuse between the SS and Heer escalated until the Heer detrained and began setting up firebases with MGs and generally deploying for battle with the SS. Officers on both sides managed to control the situation, but the POW was left with the strong impression that the Heer didn't have any love for the SS. My recollection is that the SS were going west and the Heer were going east, which suggests that the Heer weren't happy about having to go into places where the SS had been engaged in various activities which would have resulted in the Heer being very badly treated if they were captured by the Soviets.

Re: German Re-enactment in Eastern Canada

Originally Posted by Chevan

But what is sence in mock combat? I can understand the meeting when the people enjoing by the test of the firearms or watching the german weaponry like stg44, Tiger or bf-109.Germans has made a lot of excellent weapon which get a real pleasure to hold in arms, to test, or merely watch it in action.We all like the technical things, aren't we? But what make the adult man to spend their rare free time by dressing the ..uniform and do some strange actions which is called the mock battle? The mystery for me

Well to each their own I guess, some of the people take the whole thing very seriously in the way of wearing exacting copies of uniforms, and other bits of kit where at all possible, then play out the drama of a battle for a weekend here, and there. I have not viewed this myself, but know several who have, as I supplied them with sundry pieces of the items they used. "Mock Combat" is just the term for re-enacting, just as "Sham Battle" was used in ages past to describe the same sort of activity. It all means just fake fighting. It mystifies me as well Chevan, It's like re-enacting going to work after one has retired after 30 years of working every day.

Re: German Re-enactment in Eastern Canada

It's like re-enacting going to work after one has retired after 30 years of working every day.

No, it's not.

The re-enactors generally didn't work in the job they re-enact, which is the job the real soldiers did.

Tangentially, my infantry trained NCO son and some of his army mates decided to try paintball a while ago. The much larger group of people ahead of them wanted to be allowed to fight on the paintball range as a single group. The paintball range agreed. After my son and his mates had shot the shit out of that group in several sessions, the larger group spoke to them and, upon finding out that they were fighting trained soldiers from a cohesive unit, said it was unfair. The larger group were firemen. My son's group said something along the lines of "You're the ones who wanted to take on everyone else on the range as a group, thinking you'd shoot the shit out of them with your combined firepower. Not our problem if you're no good at it.". Re-enactors, who tend to go for scripted encounters, would probably do way worse than the firemen in similar circumstances.

Re: German Re-enactment in Eastern Canada

I've posted before about my ancestors fighting for the Union in the Civil War. I've found reenactors that are associated with the companies next in line to the companies that my ancestors actually fought in. They participate mainly to keep history alive I guess. I've thought before about doing reenacting. Same thing, to keep history alive. To have a little glimpse of what my ancestors went through in real life I suppose.

"Freedom is never more than one generation away from extinction. We didn't pass it to our children in the bloodstream. It must be fought for, protected, and handed on for them to do the same." - Ronald Reagan

Re: German Re-enactment in Eastern Canada

Originally Posted by Rising Sun*

I think I posted this somewhere on the forum many years ago, but my father knew an Australian Army officer who was a POW of the Germans. I'm getting rusty on the details, but essentially the Australian POW was in a train on a siding when a trainload of Waffen SS ended up stopped in a siding (or the main line) while a trainload of Heer infantry ended up stopped on the main line (or in a siding). Verbal abuse between the SS and Heer escalated until the Heer detrained and began setting up firebases with MGs and generally deploying for battle with the SS. Officers on both sides managed to control the situation, but the POW was left with the strong impression that the Heer didn't have any love for the SS. My recollection is that the SS were going west and the Heer were going east, which suggests that the Heer weren't happy about having to go into places where the SS had been engaged in various activities which would have resulted in the Heer being very badly treated if they were captured by the Soviets.

It sounds like something that could be rather true. Beevor also wrote that SS formations tended to have the right-of-way in the axis of advance and this caused horrendous traffic jams and may also have aided the American effort to slow the advance and cut-off the Bulge....

Re: German Re-enactment in Eastern Canada

Originally Posted by Nickdfresh

It sounds like something that could be rather true. Beevor also wrote that SS formations tended to have the right-of-way in the axis of advance and this caused horrendous traffic jams and may also have aided the American effort to slow the advance and cut-off the Bulge....

The probability of truth is reinforced by the hierarchies of loyalties / animosities in the armed services.

I know from my own recruit training that company versus company conflict nearly blew up into a full on brawl with every weapon available to us after being stood down for the night, which meant every weapon but no ammunition. As with the SS / Heer anecdote I mentioned, vigorous action by superiors - mostly sergeants and warrant officers (not sure if warrant officer is same in US - here I'm referring to the most senior NCOs who control all NCOs in company and above units / formations e.g. a battalion regimental sergeant major is a fearsome creature who sits at the right hand of the battalion lieutenant colonel and potentially outranks in practice all battalion lieutenants and the occasional captain) averted a significant casualty list.

In WWII and subsequent conflicts it was common in Western, and probably other, armies for conventional infantry units and commanders, especially senior commanders, to look down on special forces type units as some sort of show ponies who got undeserved resources and political / public admiration.

It's not difficult to see how the same mentality in Germany in WWII could have produced hostility in Heer units towards Waffen SS units, which could have been compounded by the rampant propaganda extolling the supposed superman abilities of the SS.

I'm inclined to suspect that the fascination in some quarters nowadays with the SS flows more from its own propaganda in WWII and nifty uniforms rather than an objective assessment of the SS as soldiers (the SS "soldiers" being those who did a bit more than guard concentration camps etc under the command of their glorious leader, the weedy and bespectacled failed chicken farmer who, oddly enough, never figures as the stereotypical SS "soldier").

Re: German Re-enactment in Eastern Canada

Originally Posted by navyson

They participate mainly to keep history alive I guess. I've thought before about doing reenacting. Same thing, to keep history alive. To have a little glimpse of what my ancestors went through in real life I suppose.

Do you really suppose that the playng the games in uniform and drinking the beers in evening is what our ancestros have passed within the wars? Or this kind of hobby makes us to remember the bloody episodes of history. For me on estern front the each battle was a terrible nighmare which anyone sane want to forget as soon as possible. I mean , we may to discuss the figures, ammunitions weapon and est , enjoing by the nice talk, but non of us , i'm sure woud not want to come back into the atmosphere of total horror where life costs nothing and death in eveywhere- the just another one ordinary battle of ww2. I'm stoopid or limited, but i can't associate the game with the bloody war