@Jotacon: Well, it kinda comes down to the perception of the player to take the experience however their want in a way. There's people who take both RE and MG stories as seriously as much the games themselves do (or can) and that's part of fun for some while others can't stand it and somehow they just have to deal with it at the end of the day.

@Eusis: Whatever happens a good chunk of people is always gonna find a thousand reasons to not like LR and make other people fall into their line of reasoning and what not.

Is alright if anyone feel the need to do that, but there's a line between being annoyed by something they don't like and having personal problems with it as I've seen over the years.

@Eusis: Whatever happens a good chunk of people is always gonna find a thousand reasons to not like LR and make other people fall into their line of reasoning and what not.

Is alright if anyone feel the need to do that, but there's a line between being annoyed by something they don't like and having personal problems with it as I've seen over the years.

I think it's at least partially an echo chamber effect really. Granted people with issues with whatever seeing others with the same issues tends to make them stick out more and more in people's heads, but I think a good chunk of the time there IS a root problem there: ME3's ending really was pretty lousy for example, though the reaction went completely overboard. Though I haven't followed much of what Aeolus said in the past there, partially because I tend not to want to follow every little detail, especially with some of these details out of context anyway.

@Eusis: Whatever happens a good chunk of people is always gonna find a thousand reasons to not like LR and make other people fall into their line of reasoning and what not.

Is alright if anyone feel the need to do that, but there's a line between being annoyed by something they don't like and having personal problems with it as I've seen over the years.

I think it's at least partially an echo chamber effect really. Granted people with issues with whatever seeing others with the same issues tends to make them stick out more and more in people's heads, but I think a good chunk of the time there IS a root problem there: ME3's ending really was pretty lousy for example, though the reaction went completely overboard. Though I haven't followed much of what Aeolus said in the past there, partially because I tend not to want to follow every little detail, especially with some of these details out of context anyway.

If there's a root reason I'm upset (and I'm not really that upset anyways, just really fucking bored due to SA's monthly pay wall being up for the past month and will likely remain so for the remainder of this month; Edit: also because there's been a dry spell of news lately, so any reprieve is appreciated), its because I used to actually like Square and Enix and their games, but nowadays they just seem to be out to make the literary version of the Tower of Babel when it comes to writing their flagship titles (or spamming GREE-ware). And it's not just the FF series but other clusterfucks as well. It honestly feels like they're trying to challenge the Star Wars Expanded Universe for the title biggest literary clusterfuck.

I haven't followed those arguments fully but I think it's kind of stupid in general to get indignant over someone not liking blatant retcons and inconsistencies.

Personally, I just don't take it seriously. These FFXIII sequels are so completely inane that for the most part it's better to just laugh at it all rather than get worked up one way or the other. Though I do find the breast expansion exasperating and this talk of a "more vulnerable Lightning" is alarming, it really does feel like to some degree they may be doing the worst kind of pandering. Have to see the execution on whether it's actually fleshing a character out or if they're going Other M on her.

Thank you for implying that there is good pandering and bad pandering and I agree that this is certainly of the bad kind. The little bit of character that Lightning has is completely thrown out in favor of suggestive victory posing and pop idol demeanor. It's just... really off.

« Last Edit: August 22, 2013, 01:58:35 PM by Klutz64 »

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I just said that there's good pandering and bad pandering. All your DoAs and fanservice JRPG's are exactly that, fanservice. There's nothing wrong with that, and I'm not ashamed to admit that I'm usually a fan. They don't try to mask their intentions or anything.

I'm sure I will love Lightning Returns, but liking or disliking a game isn't a matter of black and white. Fans of a game and or series should feel comfortable admitting to the game or series' flaws without feeling like they're condemning something they like.

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^Fanservice can be bothersome when it gets in the way of the gameplay, which is something fighting games doesn't have to worry too much since stuff like that is in most cases a plus unlike RPGs in where everything in some capacity has to have context and balance to it.

"In Japan, the costumes are available as pre-order bonuses through different retailers. The Sohei Savior costume, however, is a pre-order bonus for the game's soundtrack. In Europe, some of these costumes are available through pre-ordering the game, as well."

I'm coming at this not really having followed all the posts, maybe the last few pages. I heard Other M mentioned a page back, and it scared the crap out of me... I don't think any other game has ground a series to a screeching halt to the extent that Other M did. However, I think Lightning has a bit more possible flexibility than Samus, and she's a slightly problematic character to begin with. Samus has always been generic super hero badass, the series never made an attempt to establish her as anything more than a paper cutout, and that's fine for what it is. Other M not only broke with that in trying to develop Samus (which I have no problem with), but basically blew apart everything we had established with her up until then. Instead of being a game where you were able to see a bit more of the subtleties of her character, it re-wrote her character and told us that this is how she should be viewed in every game. horrible.

But this is different. If we take what the designers are saying seriously, they're not trying to re-write her character but develop it. And lets face it, Lightning is pretty gosh darn wooden, and could use some fleshing out. The reason she's so wooden is that they've been trying to push the "ultimate badass" image, which has no depth and every facet is specifically designed to look "cool". But alternatively, we've seen very little of her. We've seen her through one relentless event in which the emotional pathos itself was very unwavering, and did little to test her character. If they continued exactly on the trend they've done up until now, many of us would write Lightning off as bland and boring. We can coolly except that the events of FFXIII-1 were all very static and thus it's not out of the realm of possibility to not see many sides of the character, but it would be a total taste of faith to do it again.

And so where do we go from here? Well, Lightning is about as invulnerable as they come, the only direction is down. Want to see a different side of Claire? (I certainly do) we're gonna have to see her at a slightly more vulnerable state. And as far as I can tell, an "invulnerable" Lightning is probably just a "normal" anyone else, so I doubt we're going to see her fainting or running away and crying in fear. There is no question that they could totally fuck it up, too, that they are playing to the lowest common denominator of female stereotypes and fanservice, but I haven't seen anything to support this or to debunk it either.

The videos I've seen don't really seem all the different, and once again we get the over-the-top "badass" sword poses from the wooden years, so I'm not even sure I believe the change will be noticeable. If done correctly, the vulnerability change could be EXACTLY what Lightning (and the series) needs. Then again, it could be a disaster.

And the outfits... meh. So far they all tend to conform to the "badass" class in different ways. Some of them are ugly, some are interesting, but I'm not feeling bothered by any.

EDIT: on another note, I just watched the new locations vids and I was surprisingly impressed. Many of them FELT different, somehow, than most other games I've played. Especially the Wildlands... there's something very ungeneric about such a typically generic theme. For one, it feels like subarctic wilderness for a change, instead of subtropical. I got a distinct Eastern Washington or rural Canada vibe from it. Also, for the first time since FF8, I think they NAILED the modern day feel in Luxurion, even if it was a bit gothic. Ever since FF9, they've been so intent on establishing that "this is not our world", it's good to see some locales that really feel earth-like again. FFXII had its moments, but they were very limited and generic.

Lightning is not "badass", part of her character has always been presented as someone stoic and with a sense of discipline for the life she has had. That was shown back in XIII and a bunch of people misinterpreted that as her being badass (or underdeveloped) just for sake of it.

Honestly I never saw that much difference with her and Squall in the way they interact with other characters or any kind of emotion (or lack there of for some people) that they might show in their respective games. Now if Kitase and Toriyama want to show a more emtional Lightning (which really you can sort of see it in XIII-2) reacting to everything she went through and all that, that's great, but I hope they pull it off in a way that make sense whithin her character.

And fanservice? Well... is fanservice. My world is not gonna crumble because of it. *shrug*

Meh, I'm just defending her characterization. I didn't mind her in FF13, but unlike Squall, she didn't really develop much... not that the plot gave her much opportunity. (please, let's not go there, I love FF8 and I know everyone likes to hate on it). However, I forgot to mention a few amazing moments where they showed her display subtleties I've never seen before in a video game, especially the knife gift flashback... that was unreal. The problem is, even if the creators weren't trying to go for a hard boiled static badass, they didn't really give much reason for the audience to believe otherwise. Stoic is one thing, but remaining stoic through everything that happened to all of them is pretty unrealistic, and I'd prefer my characters to be more human. As I said, I can possibly be convinced into believing stoicism for one game, but two would just feel forced.

I still don't see anything I would call fan service. Unless you're broadening that to mean things outside of the sexual realm. If awesome costumes that fans will think are neat, sure, I guess that counts.

Meh, I'm just defending her characterization. I didn't mind her in FF13, but unlike Squall, she didn't really develop much... not that the plot gave her much opportunity. (please, let's not go there, I love FF8 and I know everyone likes to hate on it).

Stoic is one thing, but remaining stoic through everything that happened to all of them is pretty unrealistic, and I'd prefer my characters to be more human. As I said, I can possibly be convinced into believing stoicism for one game, but two would just feel forced.

Lightning wasn't constantly stoic, I saw her going through her fases in XIII and XIII-2. Some like the way it handled and others don't, but it is there.

I know I'm kicking Yggdrasil's hornet nest by posting again, but I just gotta ask, where's the black trenchcoat/hoodie/cape/fur-lined jacket Squeenix? You can't just have a character throw on some black cargo pants and call himself a "Shadow Warrior". If you're going to make the clown into a douchebag, then knuckle down and go all in.

^Amen. Watching Snow and Serah's relationship unfold in X-2 is the most awkward and uncomfortable thing about the game. Mostly because the game never changed tone about Snow being some kind of super-good guy even though he was clearly an abusive douchebag.

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