jeeprs wrote:It would be great if newcomers could benefit from your insights.

That should be very kind to do so!

Since new comers are not standard, therefore H H Dalai Lama says something like this (I think it is for lay people): "study first as much as possible for your own, then find a teacher/center or monastery". Since then there is already a road paved by some understanding, ready to listen to the teachings and we can easier recognize what need investigation.

Harold wrote:What I would look for at first is a Lama who will openly answer any background questions I have.

I was a 3rd degree black belt in Shotokan Karate.

I would show potential students my certificate and tell them what organization granted it to me and how they could verify it.

It's like any employment interview.

Like martial arts that has hundreds of styles like Chinese, Japanese, Thai, French etc etc. The student should seek out the style ( Vajrayana, Mahayana or Hinayana) that best suits them.

My teacher is a master in the Chod practice and that suits my background in the military and law enforcement.

The demons I faced were not in charnel grounds but real human beings with knives and guns that wanted to hurt innocent people.

Does that help.

Good heavens, are you really reifying those suffering beings whose minds being occluded by negative emotions and their results cause harm to others as "demons"?! No wonder you appear to have such a messianic complex! That is one particular reading of "dud" I have never encountered. Time and again Machig makes the distinction:

"The origin of all demons is in mind itself.
When awareness holds on and embraces any outer object,
It is in the hold of a demon.
Likewise, mind is stained when a [mental image]
Is wrongly taken to be a real object."

These beings with knives and guns are not demons. They are humans suffering greatly from afflictions.

What you fancy as dharmapala activity looks a lot more like egoism, complete with the broken caps lock key and all...

There are always problems with teachers who are not authentic. Setting oneself up as judge, jury and executioner for more than one's own practice is perilous.

"Although my view is higher than the sky, My respect for the cause and effect of actions is as fine as grains of flour."
-Padmasambhava

Karma Dorje wrote:
"The origin of all demons is in mind itself.
When awareness holds on and embraces any outer object,
It is in the hold of a demon.
Likewise, mind is stained when a [mental image]
Is wrongly taken to be a real object."

Thank you.

When you recognize the essence of enlightenment is present in all sentient beings, it is effortless to develop familial affection towards them. Guru Rinpoche.

In truth, they don't categorically bother me either (sex with students, drinking)-- i was just grasping for aspects of personal conduct in the student-teacher relationship that tend to not be caught in these glosses of fake-lama BEWARE posters.

the fact that we project onto the student-teacher relationship is exactly at the heart of this matter. this is why we need to learn how to examine the lama. we can project our hang-ups on an excellent teacher and walk away-- we can project our images of "spirituality" on a mediocre teacher and embrace them without question.

-untxi

Yudron wrote:Nice post Untxi!

Furthermore, it's a personal matter. For example, a lama have sex with his students for drinking a lot of alcohol doesn't bother me, but it may bother you. We each have images of what enlightenment looks like, such as an asexual teetotaler, or Yoda, or Spock, or Glenda the Good Witch... but I would argue that an enlightened lama can arise in any form. We connect with a form that is acceptable for us.

untxi wrote:There are an infinite number of sentient beings, and thus an infinite number of teachers that manifest to them to bring them to liberation--- and there are an infinite number of false teachers who manifest to serve their own purposes. That's samsara in the Kali Yuga.

Over the years I've seen people ringing the bell to warm others of false teachers. In the end, it usually ends up as some form of monomania as the same culprits get indicted again and again. So much so that forums like DharmaWheel have to ban discussion of certain topics. They're black holes. Chum the waters and the only recourse is to drain the whole ocean.

It's obviously useful to steer people away from false teachers, but it's more important to share with people how to examine a teacher, and to give them the information they need to make their own choices. If we just give people as list of "false teachers" the assumption is that everyone else is a "true teacher". Nothing could be farther from the truth.

Examining a teacher isn't a trivial topic. We need to share this with others.

I say that because the boards over the years have been rich in topics about different teachers associated with different extreme forms of dharma politics, and about lineages of questionable origin. Probably more dangerous are those lamas who come from unquestionable lineages, who have studied traditionally-- but who are false refuges. They have problems with alcohol or drugs. They have sex with their students. And so on. No roster of "false gurus" is going to cover this stuff.

on the vajrayana path, the responsibility really rests on the individual practitioner. because of cultural problems with authority, esteem, identity, and whatever, we tend to project transfer responsibility to the lama and away from the self. culturally that's to be expected, but it needs to be recognized and appropriately dealt with. i'm not suggesting the lama has no responsibilities and ethical requirements in the student teacher relationship. i'm also not suggesting that it's not helpful to make it known when there are frauds and fakes about. but most of the terrain is very grey and subtle and it's up to us as individuals to shed light on what works and doesn't work in a student teacher relationship based on our circumstances and personal proclivities. one extreme is blind faith in either a true (or false) teacher-- which goes nowhere. the other extreme is constant doubt, anxiety and uncertainty-- of which false-lama-monomania is one manifestation.

jkhedrub posted some excellent things on this. it's really helpful for all of us to know and share the teachings on how to examine and follow a teacher. that's the only way to empower people to move away from the extremes of blind faith and doubt to a real working relationship with a teacher. the lam rim is excellent for this. the ngondro commentaries are also excellent for this.

JKhedrup wrote:For me personally I evaluate teachers according to the guidelines mentioned in the Lam Rim.
I didn't post those here because I realize that some people might feel they are too rooted in Sutra, and that true tantric gurus might manifest differently.

Actually Venerable Khedrup I believe it would be a very good idea to post the relevant section to this thread (or at least a link).

"My religion is not deceiving myself."Jetsun Milarepa 1052-1135 CE

"Butchers, prostitutes, those guilty of the five most heinous crimes, outcasts, the underprivileged: all are utterly the substance of existence and nothing other than total bliss."The Supreme Source - The Kunjed Gyalpo
The Fundamental Tantra of Dzogchen Semde

untxi wrote:on the vajrayana path, the responsibility really rests on the individual practitioner. because of cultural problems with authority, esteem, identity, and whatever, we tend to project transfer responsibility to the lama and away from the self. culturally that's to be expected, but it needs to be recognized and appropriately dealt with. i'm not suggesting the lama has no responsibilities and ethical requirements in the student teacher relationship. i'm also not suggesting that it's not helpful to make it known when there are frauds and fakes about. but most of the terrain is very grey and subtle and it's up to us as individuals to shed light on what works and doesn't work in a student teacher relationship based on our circumstances and personal proclivities. one extreme is blind faith in either a true (or false) teacher-- which goes nowhere. the other extreme is constant doubt, anxiety and uncertainty-- of which false-lama-monomania is one manifestation.

jkhedrub posted some excellent things on this. it's really helpful for all of us to know and share the teachings on how to examine and follow a teacher. that's the only way to empower people to move away from the extremes of blind faith and doubt to a real working relationship with a teacher. the lam rim is excellent for this. the ngondro commentaries are also excellent for this.

-u

we cannot get rid of God because we still believe in grammar - Nietzsche

Rely upon those who
1) Have tamed the mount of their mind by training in ethical discipline
2) And with the ropes of remembrance and watchfulness in concentration have made it serviceable,
3)Perceive profound thusness with the eye of wisdom,
4)Have studied much and (5) have good qualities that surpass their disciples'
6)Understanding thusness by just scriptural citations and logical arguments is also acceptable
7) Are proficient speakers with the skill to guide others progressively,
8) Have loving natures as they are moved by compassion when they teach,
9) Have constant joy and enthusiasm and, (10) overcome lassitude for teaching.
Although the five- the three trainings, understanding thusness and compassion-
Are essential, given the times if they are difficult to find,
Between good and bad, see it as key to have more good qualities.

Yes, I think it would be useful to pin these qualities of a Mahayana teacher from the Lam Rim and the qualities of a Vajrayana Guru from the Kunzang Lama'i Shelung or some other source, on DW somewhere for ongoing reference.

This is a nice passage from Lama Zopa Rinpoche because it mentions qualities necessary for teachers teaching sutra and those teaching tantra according to the Gelug framework.http://www.lamayeshe.com/index.php?sect ... &chid=1287" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

My very dear Simon,
Thank you very much for your kind letter, sorry for the long delay in replying.

Regarding your question about the ten qualities of a guru—there are ten outer qualities according to lower tantra and ten inner qualities according to highest tantra. You can find these in the Guru Puja and in lam-rim commentaries (Liberation in the Palm of Your Hand, Lam-rim Chen-mo, etc.). It is very good if you read these and study this well. Also, you can find it in the commentary on 50 Verses of Guru Devotion.

There are qualities that the guru should have and qualities that the disciple should have. The minimum qualities the guru should have are having the lineage of the initiation (that he is giving) and living according to samaya vows and tantric vows, and that the deities have not prohibited him from offering the initiation by giving signs, for example.

You can read and study the section in the Guru Puja that covers the qualities of the guru (before the section which begins “you are my Guru, you are my Yidam …..”

First it mentions the ten qualities of a Mahayana Guru:

1. Discipline as a result of his mastery of the training in the higher discipline of moral self-control;
2. Mental quiescence from his training in higher concentration;
3. Pacification of all delusions and obstacles from his training in higher wisdom;
4. More knowledge than his disciple in the subject to be taught;
5. Enthusiastic perseverance and joy in teaching;
6. A treasury of scriptural knowledge;
7. Insight into and understanding of emptiness;
8. Skill in presenting the teachings;
9. Great compassion; and
10. No reluctance to teach and work for his disciples regardless of their level of intelligence.

Even if one doesn’t have all the ten qualities but has five, six, or seven qualities, the main quality is having more knowledge than the disciple and having great compassion.

A tantric master must have even more good qualities. Most important is that he be an extremely stable person, with his body, speech, and mind totally under control. He should be someone in whose presence everyone feels calm, peaceful, and relaxed and even the mere sight of him brings great pleasure to the mind. And his compassion must be unsurpassable.

There are two sets of ten fields in which the vajra guru must be a complete master. The ten inner ones are essential for teaching the yoga and maha-anuttara yoga classes of tantra, which stress the importance of purifying mainly internal mental activities. These are expertise in:

1. Visualizing wheels of protection and eliminating obstacles;
2. Preparing and consecrating protection knots and amulets to be worn around the neck;
3. Conferring the vase and secret initiations, planting the seeds for attaining a buddha’s form bodies;
4. Conferring the wisdom and word initiations, planting the seeds for attaining a buddha’s wisdom bodies;
5. Separating the enemies of Dharma from their own protectors;
6. Making the offerings, such as of sculptured tormas;
7. Reciting mantras, both verbally and mentally, that is, visualizing them revolving around his heart;
8. Performing wrathful ritual procedures for forcefully catching the attention of the meditational deities and protectors;
9. Consecrating images and statues; and
10. Making mandala offerings, performing the meditational practices (sadhana) and taking self initiations.

The ten external qualities are required for teaching the kriya and charya classes of tantra, which stress the importance of purifying mainly external activities in connection with internal mental processes. These are expertise in:

1. Drawing, constructing and visualizing the mandala abodes of the meditational deities;
2. Maintaining the different states of single-minded concentration;
3. Executing the hand gestures (mudras);
4. Performing the ritual dances;
5. Sitting in the full meditation position;
6. Reciting what is appropriate to these two classes of tantra;
7. Making fire offerings;
8. Making the various other offerings;
9. Performing the rituals of
a) Pacification of disputes, famine, and disease,
b) Increase of life span, knowledge, and wealth,
c) Power to influence others and
d) Wrathful elimination of demonic forces and interferences; and
10. Invoking meditational deities and dissolving them back into their appropriate places.

Lama Tsongkhapa explained that in degenerated times it is difficult to find lamas having all these qualities mentioned above, so if the lama does not have all those qualities then having two, five, or even eight is sufficient.

III. CHARACTERISTICS OF EACH CLASSIFICATION
A. Nirmanakaya and Sambhogakaya Spiritual Masters
Having purified the two obscurations, Buddha embodies the perfection of the purifications. Possessing the two omniscient wisdoms, he embodies the perfection of primordial wisdom.2
B. Bodhisattva Spiritual Masters
Bodhisattva spiritual masters who have attained higher levels, from the first to the tenth bhumi, possess varying amounts of wisdom and purification. In particular, bodhisattvas who attain levels above the eighth possess ten powers to benefit other beings: the power over life, mind, provision of necessities, cause or action, birth, intentions, aspiration prayers, miracles, wisdom awareness, and Dharma.
“Power over life” means one can live as long as one wishes. “Power over mind” means one can maintain meditative concentration as long as one wishes. “Power over provision of necessities” means one can shower down a rain of limitless necessities on sentient beings. “Power over cause” means one can shift the effects of karma from one particular life to another sphere, world, realm, or birth. “Power over birth” means one can maintain meditative concentration and, if born in the desire world, one will not be affected by its faults. “Power over intentions” means that one can change whatever one wishes into earth, water, fire, and so forth. “Power over aspiration prayers” means that if one aspires to perfectly benefit oneself and others, it will be accomplished.
“Power over miracles” means one can exhibit innumerable manifestations in order to cause sentient beings to be interested in the spiritual path.
“Power over wisdom awareness” means one has perfected the understanding of phenomena, their meaning, the definition of words, and confidence.
“Power over Dharma” means that, in an instant, bodhisattvas can fully satisfy all the sentient beings according to their dispositions and in their different languages through words and groupings of letters based on many different types of sutras and so forth.
C. Ordinary Spiritual Masters
There are three types of ordinary spiritual masters: those who possess eight qualities, those who possess four qualities, and those who possess two qualities. Concerning the first one, Bodhisattva Bhumis says:
One should understand that a bodhisattva who has eight qualities is a perfect spiritual master. What are the eight? One who: possesses the moral ethics of a Bodhisattva, is learned in the bodhisattva’s teachings, possesses realization, possesses compassion and kindness, possesses fearlessness, possesses patience, possesses an indefatigable mind, and is expert in verbal expression.
The second is described in the Ornament ofMahayana Sutra:
Possessing great scholarship and dispelling doubt, Whatever he says is acceptable, distinguishing the two realities3— This is a perfect bodhisattva spiritual master.
“Possessing great scholarship” refers to being able to give more extensive teachings because of vast wisdom. The spiritual master can dispel doubt because he has profound discriminating awareness. His words are acceptable because his action is pure virtue. He explains the primary characteristics of afflicting emotions and of their purification.
The third is portrayed in Engaging in the Conduct of Bodhisattvas:
A spiritual master is always
Expert in the Mahayana teachings.
He will not abandon the bodhisattva’s vow
Even at the risk of his own life.
In other words, a spiritual master is learned in the Mahayana vehicle and holds the bodhisattva’s vow.

please please, this list from khedrup is not wrong, AND AND it does not contradict some suppopsed list of Vajrayana qualities.
A TEacher will never never teach their students to contradict conventional morality.
THey will always teach their students about cause and effect.

If a teacher does actions against precepts they will face consequences, karmic consequences . ALWAYS. What the results will be are dependent on their motives , and all the other factors as we all know.

Now, if they give their students the idea that they should follow or copy their activities, thats wrong.

if a teacher does activities that are against conventional morality , because of their own three poisons, then thats their own problem,
if they then try to not admit to themselves or others that this due to their mistakes.
then this can become a problem.

jeeprs wrote:It would be great if newcomers could benefit from your insights.

That should be very kind to do so!

Since new comers are not standard, therefore H H Dalai Lama says something like this (I think it is for lay people): "study first as much as possible for your own, then find a teacher/center or monastery". Since then there is already a road paved by some understanding, ready to listen to the teachings and we can easier recognize what need investigation.

That's a very good page. But what I am getting at is this. The contributors here are generally learned, sincere and committed. They are likely to understand very well issues about legitimacy and abuse of authority.

However it can be very confusing in the 'spiritual marketplace'. Newcomers are not so discriminating, that is why they are easily mislead. I don't believe you can ever prevent that entirely, and people do have to take some responsibility for their own choices. But perhaps if there were some way the established teaching centres could provide assurance that this or that teacher or centre meets a set of agreed standards, that would provide some guidance.

Gendun Chopel? Thang Tong Gyalpo? The Madman of Tsang? Many important teachers appear crazy (cholwa) or display uncontrived conduct (trul zhug). Of course a lama will teach a student to contradict conventional morality when they are at the right point on the path to do so. People in the Vajrayana really should read Kongtrul's Treasury of Knowledge which explains all these things, and the commentaries on the Dam Sum, the three levels of vows. The Vajrayana is transgressive to its core, and perhaps people who are not comfortable with that should stick to the Mahayana.

lama tsewang wrote:please please, this list from khedrup is not wrong, AND AND it does not contradict some suppopsed list of Vajrayana qualities.
A TEacher will never never teach their students to contradict conventional morality.
THey will always teach their students about cause and effect.

If a teacher does actions against precepts they will face consequences, karmic consequences . ALWAYS. What the results will be are dependent on their motives , and all the other factors as we all know.

Now, if they give their students the idea that they should follow or copy their activities, thats wrong.

if a teacher does activities that are against conventional morality , because of their own three poisons, then thats their own problem,
if they then try to not admit to themselves or others that this due to their mistakes.
then this can become a problem.

hmmm, I hold alineage of teachings from Thangtong Gyalpo, the Shangpa lineage . Hmm, what to say to such a statement. Yes I am familiar with the DOm Sum, and I know that the one that is contained in the book , Perfect Conduct says that the best vAjrayana practitioner, in general , is one who is a bhikshu, with the Bodhisattva precepts, its on page 12.
What are you referring to in the books of Jamgon Kongtrul , can you say specifically?
there is a good discussion of tulshug in ken mcleods book wake up to your life. its on page 432 . he calls it Deliberate Behaviour.
.
I remember reading the biography of Thangtong Gyalpo , at one time he was tied up and left to die in a wild area . After being tied up, his tormentors, peed on him and pooped on him. Later on, when he was freed he was vey grateful for their actions because he had gained the power of long life.

So, I am not able to eat poop or put up with any thing like I mentioned
That is why I am a monk.
PLease Yudron, be careful what you say. You have finished a three year retreat, people will listen to you.

jkhedrup, The Characteristics of the spiritual masters to be relied upon:
I don't agree with number 4 as much study is not indicitive of an enlightened being.
I also don't agree with number 7 as proficient speakers can be dangerous if the teacher be too glib.
I think the most important characteristic would be a feeling of peace in the presence of a teacher.

Rely upon those who
1) Have tamed the mount of their mind by training in ethical discipline
2) And with the ropes of remembrance and watchfulness in concentration have made it serviceable,
3)Perceive profound thusness with the eye of wisdom,
4)Have studied much and (5) have good qualities that surpass their disciples'
6)Understanding thusness by just scriptural citations and logical arguments is also acceptable
7) Are proficient speakers with the skill to guide others progressively,
8) Have loving natures as they are moved by compassion when they teach,
9) Have constant joy and enthusiasm and, (10) overcome lassitude for teaching.
Although the five- the three trainings, understanding thusness and compassion-
Are essential, given the times if they are difficult to find,
Between good and bad, see it as key to have more good qualities.

I am away from my books this week. I think you will find that the volumes of the Treasury of Knowledge in English called Elements of Tantric Practice, Systems of Buddhist Tantra, and Esoteric Instructions are all replete with descriptions of various practices and forms of conduct that are highly unconventional. Yes, Kongtrul himself was a elegant scholar and a celibate monk, but this is only one model present in the Vajrayana.

I don't quite get your example about Thangtong Gyalpo--are you trying to illustrate that he was a bodhisattva? Of course he was! That is why he came to a point on the path where he needed to engage in the tulzhug. To say that teachers like this no longer exist implies that the Vajrayana is in decline and our lamas are not accomplished enough to guide their students using a wide variety of skillful means. Once we find a genuine wisdom lama we need to come to rely on him or her--that means respecting and trusting our lama, and accepting his guidance. This process of unfolding and opening one's heart, can and should take years.

It is a disservice to people to tell them to only look to teachers who appear normal, sober, and chaste. One should find the best guru in the world, however he or she appears... if one can handle it. If one reads the namthars of the great lamas of the Kagyu and Nyingma lineage, and imagines what it would be like to actually be a student of one of them... one can recognize that all one's rigid beliefs, be they conventional or unconventional, would have been shaken up. After training in the Mahayana, then one can decide if one is willing to, and has the courage to open oneself in such a way.

The Shangpa lineage, huh? Even your current main lineage holder is highly unconventional.

lama tsewang wrote:hmmm, I hold alineage of teachings from Thangtong Gyalpo, the Shangpa lineage . Hmm, what to say to such a statement. Yes I am familiar with the DOm Sum, and I know that the one that is contained in the book , Perfect Conduct says that the best vAjrayana practitioner, in general , is one who is a bhikshu, with the Bodhisattva precepts, its on page 12.
What are you referring to in the books of Jamgon Kongtrul , can you say specifically?
there is a good discussion of tulshug in ken mcleods book wake up to your life. its on page 432 . he calls it Deliberate Behaviour.
.
I remember reading the biography of Thangtong Gyalpo , at one time he was tied up and left to die in a wild area . After being tied up, his tormentors, peed on him and pooped on him. Later on, when he was freed he was vey grateful for their actions because he had gained the power of long life.

So, I am not able to eat poop or put up with any thing like I mentioned
That is why I am a monk.
PLease Yudron, be careful what you say. You have finished a three year retreat, people will listen to you.

My dear Yudron , Kalu Rinpoche never tells people to take drugs or drink , so what is the point of anything you have said , please tell me.
Furthermore, it is one of the most unconventional things there is to be a MONK!!!!!! We live on faith entirely . With out any concern for worldly success or failure!!
All the Buddhist teachers I have met are unconventional ,if they werent, they would be doing something different.
Tsewang

lama tsewang wrote:My dear Yudron , Kalu Rinpoche never tells people to take drugs or drink , so what is the point of anything you have said , please tell me.
Furthermore, it is one of the most unconventional things there is to be a MONK!!!!!! We live on faith entirely . With out any concern for worldly success or failure!!
All the Buddhist teachers I have met are unconventional ,if they werent, they would be doing something different.
Tsewang

I agree with you about being a monk in Western Society! I'm pro monk!

Unless you are his translator, you don't know what lamas are telling their students to do privately. The current Kalu Rinpoche did visit us in retreat and I really like him.

As Dzongsar Khyentse Rinpoche says, the lama may tell one student to drink coffee and another student to drink wine, based on what will be good for his or her practice. The problem comes when those two students talk to each other and say "The lama says you are supposed to drink wine" or coffee as the case may be.