Off topic:I have sent a request to several of the admins & moderators to withdraw my report of junebug72 regarding libelous statements. While my position on the statements has not changed, my position on other things has changed so that, with other's voiced opinions, makes the report pointless. This is a part of my endeavor to stop as requested.

« Last Edit: July 19, 2013, 06:49:21 PM by Samothec »

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Faith must trample under foot all reason, sense, and understanding. - Martin Luther

The definition of spiritual not religious for me is to search for God from your soul not from a book or religious teachings. I looked into religions and I found that there were positive and negative components with all of them. Unbelievable claims and such. So I got the idea in my head after 7-8 years of atheism that God can exist w/o religion. W/o religion God is Love to me. There is a Power that comes from Love. Love defeats hate. Always has, always will!!!

Yes I know a lot about Jesus. I grew up fundamental baptist. I don't believe the church is what Jesus wanted. From what I read Jesus would not like these churches at all. He spoke very strongly against long prayers/robes, money changing hands at the temple, and judging. He gave his life for what he believed. I will not dishonor him even if he is not real. It is a beautiful story of Love. I believe that it is very possible/likely that Jesus existed and that he Loved his fellow man that much. I believe that Jesus was spiritual not religious.

So you see I will not take the title of christian out of respect for Jesus not disrespect. Not because I consider him a God either, because I consider him a great and Loving "man".

Now that being said I don't close my mind up there. I believe there is more to learn about God that what we find in religious books. I believe firmly that religion can block the path to God even make God look pathetic as I have indicated in this thread.

So I got the idea in my head after 7-8 years of atheism that God can exist w/o religion. W/o religion God is Love to me. There is a Power that comes from Love. Love defeats hate. Always has, always will!!!

Absolutely marvellous! I can work with this idea! Where is the smilie for clap/applause?

I believe there is more to learn about God that what we find in religious books. I believe firmly that religion can block the path to God even make God look pathetic as I have indicated in this thread.

Yes, religion does make God look pathetic - and I've been supporting you, Junebug72, in this for some time now.

The next step is ... where can we look to find any divine provided/inspired info about this fairly illusive God of Love? Or is it maybe a Human creation - a synthesis of our combined better inner selves!? Somewhat in line with the completely Human-made and rigorously peer-reviewed philosophy of Humanism?

The definition of spiritual not religious for me is to search for God from your soul not from a book or religious teachings. I looked into religions and I found that there were positive and negative components with all of them. Unbelievable claims and such. So I got the idea in my head after 7-8 years of atheism that God can exist w/o religion. W/o religion God is Love to me. There is a Power that comes from Love. Love defeats hate. Always has, always will!!!

Yes I know a lot about Jesus. I grew up fundamental baptist. I don't believe the church is what Jesus wanted. From what I read Jesus would not like these churches at all. He spoke very strongly against long prayers/robes, money changing hands at the temple, and judging. He gave his life for what he believed. I will not dishonor him even if he is not real. It is a beautiful story of Love. I believe that it is very possible/likely that Jesus existed and that he Loved his fellow man that much. I believe that Jesus was spiritual not religious.

So you see I will not take the title of christian out of respect for Jesus not disrespect. Not because I consider him a God either, because I consider him a great and Loving "man".

Now that being said I don't close my mind up there. I believe there is more to learn about God that what we find in religious books. I believe firmly that religion can block the path to God even make God look pathetic as I have indicated in this thread.

I think that summary still applies. I also think that the follow-up questions I have there are still valid and deserving of response. If I'm still mistaken on your beliefs, could you point out what those mistakes are so I can correct?

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"When we landed on the moon, that was the point where god should have come up and said 'hello'. Because if you invent some creatures, put them on the blue one and they make it to the grey one, you f**king turn up and say 'well done'."

So I got the idea in my head after 7-8 years of atheism that God can exist w/o religion. W/o religion God is Love to me. There is a Power that comes from Love. Love defeats hate. Always has, always will!!!

Absolutely marvellous! I can work with this idea! Where is the smilie for clap/applause?

I believe there is more to learn about God that what we find in religious books. I believe firmly that religion can block the path to God even make God look pathetic as I have indicated in this thread.

Yes, religion does make God look pathetic - and I've been supporting you, Junebug72, in this for some time now.

The next step is ... where can we look to find any divine provided/inspired info about this fairly illusive God of Love? Or is it maybe a Human creation - a synthesis of our combined better inner selves!? Somewhat in line with the completely Human-made and rigorously peer-reviewed philosophy of Humanism?

Your heart. I don't care where Love comes from. I know it exists and humans are better off when they have Love.

It is not really my goal to convince you of God. It was at first but minds and goals do change. Now my only goal is to convince atheists that not everybody that believes in God is a hater and that you fix this with Love not hate. Two wrongs don't make a right. My sweet mother taught me that. RIP

Thanks William for opening your mind and heart to me. I will show you the same respect.

I think that summary still applies. I also think that the follow-up questions I have there are still valid and deserving of response. If I'm still mistaken on your beliefs, could you point out what those mistakes are so I can correct?

I can tell you this if your summary still insists I have a personal relationship with Jesus you are still wrong. He is a man I admire not worship. I do not have a relationship with Jesus. I am not religious I am spiritual. I look for inspiration in many places, mostly from within my own self-consciousness, not much from books or religions at all. I believe in LOVE. I believe in Love because I have put it to work in my own life with very positive results.

I really do want to communicate my beliefs clearly to you but you have to help me out with an open mind and heart.

I just want to point out that you and TheGawd have identical profile pictures so I might have gotten y'all cornfused too. I'm sorry if that is the case here. I'll check later I just want people here to know that I am not at all afraid to apologize to someone. I think it shows a fine characteristic in a person. A very admirable thing to do.

She posted the next day (stated in her reply right after yours), who gets on the internet right after they have major surgery? I know: those who don't have surgery and just say they do.

-Nam

Steady, nam... you're a bit too ready with your implications. You may owe junebug an apology.

GB mod

No, you know what, scratch it all. I don't need an apology. I wish he'd just let this grudge match go. I am not the reason for his anger. It is certainly not productive for either one of us. Hatefulness is accomplishing nothing. Darwin's are useless. I would really just like to call a truce. I can certainly forgive and forget, it's what I believe in.

No it's not easy I was very hurt by that comment. It's only words though; right? It's just I feel that strongly about LOVE. I will love Nam no matter what he says to me. I actually feel the need to love him more than any one else here right now. It is possible to love a stranger. Thumbs down me all you want to Nam I'm still going to show you Love and kindness. You will not bring me to tears, anger or frustration ever again. Life is short dude be happy and let your anger go. Your only hurting yourself.

I can tell you this if your summary still insists I have a personal relationship with Jesus you are still wrong. He is a man I admire not worship. I do not have a relationship with Jesus. I am not religious I am spiritual. I look for inspiration in many places, mostly from within my own self-consciousness, not much from books or religions at all. I believe in LOVE. I believe in Love because I have put it to work in my own life with very positive results.

I really do want to communicate my beliefs clearly to you but you have to help me out with an open mind and heart.

!!!!! A-ha! I think I now understand a big bit of the source of confusion here. The culprit: web browsers (I'm going to go ahead and blame JavaScript, but I blame everything on JavaScript).

The link I've posted to you a few times was supposed to bring you to the page and then jump to the specific post in question. Apparently on your end it is going to the page but not jumping to the specific post. The particular post I'm referring to is #69.

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I just want to point out that you and TheGawd have identical profile pictures so I might have gotten y'all cornfused too. I'm sorry if that is the case here. I'll check later I just want people here to know that I am not at all afraid to apologize to someone. I think it shows a fine characteristic in a person. A very admirable thing to do.

Well they're not the same, but they do look pretty similar. If you're looking at this on a small screen or mobile device I can kinda see that.

By-the-by, his avatar is named Riley; mine is named Johnny.

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"When we landed on the moon, that was the point where god should have come up and said 'hello'. Because if you invent some creatures, put them on the blue one and they make it to the grey one, you f**king turn up and say 'well done'."

Your heart. I don't care where Love comes from. I know it exists and humans are better off when they have Love.

I agree with most of that Humans (and a lot of animals) are hard-wired for love. Love is natural.

The "heart" bit I'm not so sure about - but I'm okay with that idea because I think you do know what your heart actually is and that it's a short-hand traditional phrase used to articulate a broader self-knowledge.

I respect that you: "don't care where Love comes from." In many ways it doesn't matter where love comes from - because love simply works so splendidly in most situations I'd like to offer you another angle on it though - not caring about where love comes from has lead you to substitute a nebulous idea of "God" a "Creator" to plug that gap. You are free to do that of course but that's where a lot of atheists are finding it difficult to come to terms with your position - and some have tried to pigeon hole you into a religion.

But I get that you don't care - I held EXACTLY the same view for several years. All I knew for sure was that BibleGod is bunkum, and religion is nonsense.

It is not really my goal to convince you of God. It was at first but minds and goals do change.

It takes courage to say that Junebug - I admire that - so +1 for you I hope you get addicted to that process of change - and maybe even find some curiosity about the origins of love. The explanation of love is out there - even right here in past threads on this WWGHA forum. But no hurry, you have to focus your energies on treatments for now.

Now my only goal is to convince atheists that not everybody that believes in God is a hater and that you fix this with Love not hate.

That used to be my goal. I guess once I'm healed enough to be a convincing person again my new goal will be to convince believers that everybody that doesn't believe in god is not a hater... I think when I was the crazy theist I was pretty convincing that I was not a hater, will I be able to do the same as a non-theist?

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It doesn't make sense to let go of something you've had for so long. But it also doesn't make sense to hold on when there's actually nothing there.

I've been following this thread closely. I think you've made your position and beliefs more clear (at least to me).

I won't quibble with the details, but your belief that love is key is spot on, IMO. I pretty much agree.

I personally do not believe in a creator. I also don't believe that our universe is on the surface of a bubble or is a hologram projection. However, the upside is that if there is a creator, a bubble or a hologram, and it is proven to be so, I will accept it without difficulty. The thing that all three notions have in common is that none of them presume to give people laws, nor require groveling.

When I first started to participate in atheist forums, I strongly felt that there was 'something else'. I refused to characterize it, which got me into a bit of overly-warm water with the 'older' members. I came to understand that I couldn't prove this 'something else', and since whatever it may be, it doesn't require I believe in it, that it would be more logical for me to apply the same standards of proof that I applied to other things. It was just a slight change in approach.

Be well -BoF

ATT > Religious Discussions / Re: What you consider to be God« on: May 26, 2010, 12:05:08 AM »I just have to add... I don't consider anything to be 'God'.

That being said, the whole idea that God must be the Creator has always rubbed me the wrong way.

If I could suddenly be transported into the presence of a being who naturally made the conditions right for the creation of our universe, but who did not actually create all matter and energy, I'd be willing to be sufficiently impressed enough to call that being 'God'. If it started proclaiming laws of conduct and morality, I'd question its authority to do so. If it insisted on these laws being obeyed or destruction would follow, I might buckle under to the tyrant, but its authority would be by dint of its threats.

If the being above in fact created matter and energy from nothing by means of magic (which I consider impossible) the parameters of its authority would be exactly as I have described above.

I'm so glad that I have explained my beliefs in a way you can understand. It doesn't seem like it would be such a hard thing to do but it has taken me 5 months to get this far. I'm sure it's 90% on me but I also think the other 10% is on the other end; closed-minds.

Yes William the heart is really your conscience I know. It's easier to spell.

My belief in a Creator is not limited to explaining where Love comes from. Matter of fact that has very little to do with why I believe in God. First of all I find it hard to comprehend the amount of luck it would take for our planet to end up with so many forms of complex life from an explosion. Explosions are messy business. There is also the lack of other planets like ours. If it was that easy there should be planets like ours all over.

2nd if humans came from water not dirt then we should be natural swimmers. Most of us have to "learn" to swim and our bodies have more elements of dirt than water, could be wrong here, I'm sure you'll let me know. . There is also the fact that not all creatures evolved into the same thing. Why remain a fly when you could've evolved into a human or lion, etc. We have flies because we need flies. We need all our different life forms. We all have a "purpose".

Then there is my spirit. I feel my spirit and it feels eternal unlike this flesh I wear. It's the "real" me.

These are my main points of belief in a Creator. I very well believe that there was an Intelligence involved in our making. No magic necessary, intelligence yes. Love yes. I believe Love and hate comes from us. We are capable of both because we have freewill. We are not forced to love it is a choice.

Well I didn't get you confused. How about BC/AD being a good indicator that Jesus actually existed. It collaborates the bible story as far as Jesus's existence is concerned.

I do wish you would try again. As I thought your old post is still stuck on me having a relationship with Jesus. Please read my explanation of my belief again with a clean slate. Forget what you thought and reevaluate please.

I've been following this thread closely. I think you've made your position and beliefs more clear (at least to me).

I won't quibble with the details, but your belief that love is key is spot on, IMO. I pretty much agree.

I personally do not believe in a creator. I also don't believe that our universe is on the surface of a bubble or is a hologram projection. However, the upside is that if there is a creator, a bubble or a hologram, and it is proven to be so, I will accept it without difficulty. The thing that all three notions have in common is that none of them presume to give people laws, nor require groveling.

When I first started to participate in atheist forums, I strongly felt that there was 'something else'. I refused to characterize it, which got me into a bit of overly-warm water with the 'older' members. I came to understand that I couldn't prove this 'something else', and since whatever it may be, it doesn't require I believe in it, that it would be more logical for me to apply the same standards of proof that I applied to other things. It was just a slight change in approach.

Be well -BoF

ATT > Religious Discussions / Re: What you consider to be God« on: May 26, 2010, 12:05:08 AM »I just have to add... I don't consider anything to be 'God'.

That being said, the whole idea that God must be the Creator has always rubbed me the wrong way.

If I could suddenly be transported into the presence of a being who naturally made the conditions right for the creation of our universe, but who did not actually create all matter and energy, I'd be willing to be sufficiently impressed enough to call that being 'God'. If it started proclaiming laws of conduct and morality, I'd question its authority to do so. If it insisted on these laws being obeyed or destruction would follow, I might buckle under to the tyrant, but its authority would be by dint of its threats.

If the being above in fact created matter and energy from nothing by means of magic (which I consider impossible) the parameters of its authority would be exactly as I have described above.

Hi Bereft,

Religion is the work of MAN not God, IMO. W/o religion there is no Definition of God or what God wants from us, just freedom. I draw my conclusions from within my own conscience and life experiences.

How about BC/AD being a good indicator that Jesus actually existed. It collaborates the bible story as far as Jesus's existence is concerned.

How about BBY/ABY being a good indicator that the Battle of Yavin actually occurred? It collaborates the Star Wars story as far as the occurrence of the battle is concerned.

Not a good comparison to me. Every body knows Star Wars is fiction, for now.

Well, yes, which was kind of the point. And actually, to see some fans going at it, you'd probably be justified in wondering whether they really did know that Star Wars was fiction. I don't know how involved you are in fandom or anything, but I personally have witnessed, and even participated in, some very intensely heated debates about things that most people would regard as incredibly minuscule minutiae. One board I used to lurk on, for example, once had a character state that Minbari fighters were on par with Vorlon fighters as regarded both weapons and technology, and an opposing party said that either Minbari fighter weapons technology had to be superior or Vorlon fighter shield technology had to be inferior (or both). This person then posted a clip from a "Babylon 5" space battle that was probably, literally, less than one second long. It was certainly less than two seconds. The result was a debate thread that rivaled our own "Did a man named Jesus really rise from the dead?" thread in both intensity and verbosity. It was so ferocious that even I got kind of embarrassed about it, and I'm not casual about my own fandom. (For example, I'm getting my picture taken with William Shatner next weekend. Don't even think about asking how much that's going to cost.)

Anyway. :^) One thing I find interesting about such comparisons is that the history of the Star Wars universe is far, far more detailed and intricate, and it contains significantly fewer points of disagreement, both in canon and in non-canonical literature. When there is some kind of a continuity error, such as the rebels on Yavin IV taking off from the spaceport wearing perfectly clean helmets, which helmets then suddenly become all dirty and battered when the pilots have arrived at the Death Star, nobody attempts to explain it away or claim that it actually validates the historicity of the narrative, as we so often see with the gospels. Even serious fans like myself just look at it and say, "Yep, continuity error. You see them in fiction all the time."

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[On how kangaroos could have gotten back to Australia after the flood]: Don't kangaroos skip along the surface of the water? --Kenn

How about BC/AD being a good indicator that Jesus actually existed. It collaborates the bible story as far as Jesus's existence is concerned.

How about BBY/ABY being a good indicator that the Battle of Yavin actually occurred? It collaborates the Star Wars story as far as the occurrence of the battle is concerned.

Not a good comparison to me. Every body knows Star Wars is fiction, for now.

Well, yes, which was kind of the point. And actually, to see some fans going at it, you'd probably be justified in wondering whether they really did know that Star Wars was fiction. I don't know how involved you are in fandom or anything, but I personally have witnessed, and even participated in, some very intensely heated debates about things that most people would regard as incredibly minuscule minutiae. One board I used to lurk on, for example, once had a character state that Minbari fighters were on par with Vorlon fighters as regarded both weapons and technology, and an opposing party said that either Minbari fighter weapons technology had to be superior or Vorlon fighter shield technology had to be inferior (or both). This person then posted a clip from a "Babylon 5" space battle that was probably, literally, less than one second long. It was certainly less than two seconds. The result was a debate thread that rivaled our own "Did a man named Jesus really rise from the dead?" thread in both intensity and verbosity. It was so ferocious that even I got kind of embarrassed about it, and I'm not casual about my own fandom. (For example, I'm getting my picture taken with William Shatner next weekend. Don't even think about asking how much that's going to cost.)

Anyway. :^) One thing I find interesting about such comparisons is that the history of the Star Wars universe is far, far more detailed and intricate, and it contains significantly fewer points of disagreement, both in canon and in non-canonical literature. When there is some kind of a continuity error, such as the rebels on Yavin IV taking off from the spaceport wearing perfectly clean helmets, which helmets then suddenly become all dirty and battered when the pilots have arrived at the Death Star, nobody attempts to explain it away or claim that it actually validates the historicity of the narrative, as we so often see with the gospels. Even serious fans like myself just look at it and say, "Yep, continuity error. You see them in fiction all the time."

Never heard of "fandom" please elaborate. Is it the act of being a fanatic?

Well I didn't get you confused. How about BC/AD being a good indicator that Jesus actually existed. It collaborates the bible story as far as Jesus's existence is concerned.

I do wish you would try again. As I thought your old post is still stuck on me having a relationship with Jesus. Please read my explanation of my belief again with a clean slate. Forget what you thought and reevaluate please.

Before going further I think we need to clear this up. I really don't see where I indicate that I think you have a personal relationship with Jesus in that post. I mean, I went so far as to Please highlight where I make that indication. As it stands right now, re-summarizing on my part isn't going to help as I don't see anything to change at the moment.

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Read William's and Lori's. Their's is accurate. It might help.

I don't see where my summary conflicts with any of theirs.

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"When we landed on the moon, that was the point where god should have come up and said 'hello'. Because if you invent some creatures, put them on the blue one and they make it to the grey one, you f**king turn up and say 'well done'."

Never heard of "fandom" please elaborate. Is it the act of being a fanatic?

Being a fan is part of it, but there's more to it than that, and it's significantly more involved than just saying that you "like Harry Palmer and own all the books and movies" or whatever.

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Fandom (consisting of fan [fanatic] plus the suffix -dom, as in kingdom, freedom, etc.) is a term used to refer to a subculture composed of fans characterized by a feeling of sympathy and camaraderie with others who share a common interest. Fans typically are interested in even minor details of the object(s) of their fandom and spend a significant portion of their time and energy involved with their interest, often as a part of a social network with particular practices (a fandom); this is what differentiates "fannish" (fandom-affiliated) fans from those with only a casual interest.A fandom can grow up centered around any area of human interest or activity. The subject of fan interest can be narrowly defined, focused on something like an individual celebrity, or more widely defined, encompassing entire hobbies, genres or fashions. While it is now used to apply to groups of people fascinated with any subject, the term has its roots in those with an enthusiastic appreciation for sports. Merriam-Webster's dictionary traces the usage of the term back as far as 1903.Fandom as a term can also be used in a broad sense to refer to the interconnected social networks of individual fandoms, many of which overlap.

I'm so glad that I have explained my beliefs in a way you can understand. It doesn't seem like it would be such a hard thing to do but it has taken me 5 months to get this far. I'm sure it's 90% on me but I also think the other 10% is on the other end; closed-minds.

My belief in a Creator is not limited to explaining where Love comes from. Matter of fact that has very little to do with why I believe in God. First of all I find it hard to comprehend the amount of luck it would take for our planet to end up with so many forms of complex life from an explosion. Explosions are messy business. There is also the lack of other planets like ours. If it was that easy there should be planets like ours all over.

This is drifting a long way from the original topic. If I may ... it might help to look at it the opposite way. There are frogs that thrive in the Namibian desert - and you know frogs need coolth and water. But these frogs have adapted to the desert. If they could speak they would also say how lucky they are to be living in a desert

All other frogs on the planet would instantly croak in disagreement - and die within minutes or hours of being placed in that same environment.

You see the reason we think our planet is lucky and perfect is because we have adapted to it. We evolve into our environment as it changes. Even rolling back geological time - we could not have breathed on this very planet. The answers are more complex than our own snapshot in time. There is actually a huge latitude in the parameters for life - the high pressure hot sulphuric vents at the bottom of the ocean for example - covered in amazing life forms but where you or I would die faster than a blink.

And there are more and more planets being discovered that are close enough to the conditions on our planet to support life. Please keep your mind open on this one

2nd if humans came from water not dirt then we should be natural swimmers. Most of us have to "learn" to swim and our bodies have more elements of dirt than water, could be wrong here, I'm sure you'll let me know. .

From the perspective of our lifetimes this logic might appeal. But we are talking about millions and millions of generations of change and adaptation to new environments. Our situation now doesn't need us to swim to survive - so the anatomical structures that served our ancestors well for swimming have evolved to structures that serve us well for climbing trees and walking.

Whales are a marvellous example of where land animals evolved back into aquatic animals. Google that - you will be amazed I guarantee

There is also the fact that not all creatures evolved into the same thing. Why remain a fly when you could've evolved into a human or lion, etc. We have flies because we need flies. We need all our different life forms. We all have a "purpose".

I can see this is a very difficult issue to deal with if one holds that there is a "Creator" with a plan or purpose. And it boils down to the MAIN problem theists have with evolution - why they reject the science and bury their heads in the sand. Theists cannot bring themselves to accept that evolution has no direction, no purpose, it's merely a response to opportunity by some individuals who happen to have inherited beneficial mutations.

Evolution doesn't work on all individuals simultaneously. It works through rare individuals with accidental mutations that open up opportunities for that individual alone, and eventually its offspring. It leads to new populations that separate from the old - leaving the old behind, still alive in their original environment and set of opportunities.

That is why there are still single celled creatures and monkeys to whom we are related through evolution. But even then the relationships are a bit deceptive, because those same amoebas and monkeys we see today have also had time to diverge and evolve in different directions from our common ancestor. The original common ancestors are long gone - except in the fossil record where they show up abundantly - demonstrating how forms changed and diverged.

We really should discuss this further in another topic in another forum - it's so totally removed from the Bible is a disgrace topic. Meanwhile here is the tree of life pic to wet your appetite for the discussion and leaning ahead of you:

Then there is my spirit. I feel my spirit and it feels eternal unlike this flesh I wear. It's the "real" me.

Yep, I get that. I wake up in the morning and the real me re-enters my consciousness. I can't wash it of my mistakes or my learnings - it seems eternal - while I'm alive and awake that is. The discussion about what happens to me (my spirit if you like) has been done many times on WWGHA. In the end it boils down to what we know about death (a lot) and what we know about spirit (absolutely nothing). You are free to believe whatever you like about this, but you should take some notice of the rational view that when we die it all goes quiet - like falling asleep and never waking up. It doesn't hurt a bit. And when we look at how theists cling desperately to this life, seeking treatments for life-threatening illness, defending themselves against attack, fighting to stave off death ... we can conclude from their behaviour that they also know deep down that this life is all we have.

If I wake up after death in another life I'll be pleasantly surprised, and enjoy whatever it has to offer. But meanwhile I refuse to live my life as if some clergy know more about the next life than I do, and for that claim to "knowledge" of the unknowable they get to live an easier life here on this earth. We are all in the dark on this. There is no evidence of what comes after death, but a very good indication when I look at the worms in my compost heap

I say live your life with honesty and integrity - a life filled with love and enjoyment - and fight a bit against evil, especially those who try to suck us into religion for their own gain in this life.

These are my main points of belief in a Creator. I very well believe that there was an Intelligence involved in our making. No magic necessary, intelligence yes. Love yes. I believe Love and hate comes from us. We are capable of both because we have freewill. We are not forced to love it is a choice.

On the belt buckles of Hitler's soldiers there was an inscription: "Gott mit uns" Did the German soldiers ordered to muster Jews into the death camps have any real choice. No. An Islamic suicide bomber presses the detonation button thinking thoughts put there by his trainers - he also has no real choice either.Religion can and does override love by dulling our capacity to make natural choices. I happen to agree with you that expression of our natural love is indeed a choice - a choice to do what already feels right - but only when free from the mind-shackling oppression of religious thought.

Junebug, I think your belief in a deity Creator is quite harmless and won't prevent you from living a life of love and fulfilment. You don't need to make the complete transition to atheism to know the value of this life for yourself right now - I think you are there already. But expect to take some heat for the tolerance you afford some of theistic ideas (e.g. intelligent design) that full-blown theists deploy to keep a choke-hold over the minds of people weakened by brainwashing. Theists, the fundamentally religious ones, are the natural adversary of the atheist. Atheists are justified to be cranky about being pushed around by religious values in politics and daily life, falsely accused of being immoral, and condemned to (or at least threatened with) hell by theists - all for not believing and submitting to fairy tale gods

You can live on the fringes of the main debate, out of the conflict zone, but be cautious of inadvertently siding with the enemies of free thought For myself I will carry on seeking the knowledge. Being curious. Never stop questioning