No, what I'm saying is that the "Article V" can't "collapse" without a circumstance where it actually, you know, applies. Is what happened in Crimea concerning for European states? Sure. Should neighboring states of Russia be concerned about being invaded? Yes. But does Crimea somehow invalidate Article 5 and the alliance it represents? Absolutely not. The only way that you'd get a "collapse of Article V" is if a NATO country was attacked and all other NATO countries failed to do something about it. Then Article 5 applies. But Article 5 - and NATO in fact - isn't relevant when non-NATO states get attacked by other non-NATO states. Attacks like that have no bearing on the efficacy of the NATO alliance.

Don't get me wrong... I don't mean to derail the Trump mockery, but statements like that deserve to be corrected. I'd expect that total lack of understanding about NATO from Trump, not you.

"Collapse" may have been too strong a word. "Erosion" would be more appropriate.

Back on Trump: he is considering a staff shakeup. For crisis management, he is apparently bringing in Corey Lewandowski...a guy who randomly attacked a reporter, and whose previous boss went to prison. And who Trump previously fired from his presidential campaign. Makes perfect sense, yeah, exactly who you want for public relations.

The whole way Trump is responding to this special prosecutor, starting a political "war room" to disperse positive news spin as a form of crisis management, suggests he truly wants a fight in the media space. He's not going to quiet down, he's doubling down and going to be the most Trump to ever Trump.

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iamntbatman wrote:

On Friday I passed an important milestone in my teaching career: a student shat himself

FloristOfVampyrism wrote:

That wasn't meant as a k.o. though, he specifically targeted an area of the cerebellum which, if ruptured, renders you a Jehovah's witness indefinitely

In related news: Trump's Twitter account has gained 5,000,000 new followers in three days. Averaging about 100 new followers a minute now. All "eggs" who haven't posted yet, of course, and almost all of them created within the last three weeks. My my, those Russian troll farms sure are busy. Either that or he's just buying Twitter bots to follow him.

Any of you guys try watching Fox news at all lately? This morning they were praising Trump's masterplan in making the rest of the world hate the USA on his foreign trip. Some chick also called dems a bunch of crybabies who are just upset they lost the election so are making up all sorts of fake news like Russian collusion, and trying to make Trump look as bad as possible. The election was half a year ago, nobody but Trump is still talking about it. It's really pathetic watching them try to somehow make him look good, it's unbelievable that they can say any of this with a straight face, they must actually believe what they are saying which is even worse.

There is no shortage of amazing covfefe these days. Being in a top White House is now seen as "career suicide", and that's even among Republicans.

Quote:

“Hell no!” said one Republican — one of the most common type of responses BuzzFeed News got from operatives. “That would be career suicide.” […]

“That’s like asking someone who just witnessed a horrific bungee jumping accident whether they would like to go next,” one Republican source responded in a text message. “It would be only a few months on the job before tapping out the ‘I want to spend more time with family’ email,” another said.

One operative whose spouse works in the Trump administration dissolved into laughter upon being asked if they would want the role.

“Sorry, I’m sorry,” the source said between stifled laughter. “Oh, you’re being serious? Oh my god, I’m crying of laughter, why would anyone in their right mind want to be his communications director?”

Even the official Pee-Wee Herman FB page shared a covfefe meme today. Made my day. Then i was sad because the president is an idiot. =[

Sick of the whole Kathy Griffin thing already. I think it was in poor taste, but people are acting like folks on the other side never did the same. Nugent said he wanted to kill Obama and he ended up getting invited to the white house (Trump's white house, of course, not Obama's). People were saying "no one could've gotten away with doing/saying something like that about Obama!" Lol! Lots of people did. Also sick of people acting like Kathy Griffin in any way represents all liberals. Don't know if Trump has said anything about it, I wouldn't be surprised if he rants about it endlessly though. XD

theposega wrote:

Didn't Alex Jones say something to the effect of "I don't hate the jews, it's just that they control everything"?

Ugh. I keep running into his followers. I'm considering deleting an idiot on FB because he thinks Snoop Dogg is a member of the illuminati (I could not even make up shit this stupid, wtf) and is reposting the "Hillary Clinton defended a rapist and laughed about getting him off!" memes which have been debunked repeatedly (in the US, people have a right to an attorney, I reminded dude). There are very few things in the entire world that irritate me as much as Alex Jones followers. I have no idea how people can take that guy seriously. -_- Our education system has apparently failed us.

Didn't Alex Jones say something to the effect of "I don't hate the jews, it's just that they control everything"?

Ugh. I keep running into his followers. I'm considering deleting an idiot on FB because he thinks Snoop Dogg is a member of the illuminati (I could not even make up shit this stupid, wtf) and is reposting the "Hillary Clinton defended a rapist and laughed about getting him off!" memes which have been debunked repeatedly (in the US, people have a right to an attorney, I reminded dude). There are very few things in the entire world that irritate me as much as Alex Jones followers. I have no idea how people can take that guy seriously. -_- Our education system has apparently failed us.

A guy I know, who I am seriously reconsidering using the word "friend" for is pretty clearly an Alex Jones follower, even though he isn't sharing actual InfoWars bullshit. It's aggravating. I haven't talked to him in a long time, then one day, he appeared and commented on something I put on Facebook that was so rife with conspiracy theory, I didn't even know how to respond. So I just ignored it. Seriously, chemtrails, secret air force sky weapons destroying North Korea missiles, and all kinds of shit.

Several times since then, he's gone on "sharing rampages" shoveling out all manner of lunacy from the worst of Facebook. Conspiracy theories, debunked bullshit, a weird fucking meme from David Icke of all people where they have convinced themselves that anyone called a "conspiracy theorist" is actually someone who "really sees the truth." I have posted debunking a good third of his shit, but come the fuck on. When do people learn to do research? He also shared that racist M&M's meme about how "10 out of 10,000 M&Ms are poison, he wouldn't eat them" referring to Syrians.

It took me all of 3 minutes to look up FBI crime statistics that show the violent crime rate in the US (circa 2014) was roughly 36.6 per 10,000, or 3x higher than his fear of Syrians. Told him to stop sharing easily debunked bullshit and just admit to being racist. By his own analogy, he's safer with those Syrians than his fellow Americans. He has also shared a bunch of Christian bullshit, and once acted like I should be religious to a certain deity because I named my son after a mythological god. Explain that logic.

On top of all this, he regularly tries to argue that he's a "middle of the road" Centrist or Libertarian, yet literally only shares (among his conspiracy theories) anti-left memes from hard pro-right FB pages and sites, and regularly defends Trump. I have also called him on this, because that is obviously not the stance of some centrist or libertarian.

On top of all this, he regularly tries to argue that he's a "middle of the road" Centrist or Libertarian, yet literally only shares (among his conspiracy theories) anti-left memes from hard pro-right FB pages and sites, and regularly defends Trump. I have also called him on this, because that is obviously not the stance of some centrist or libertarian.

We've seen this constantly on this very forum, haha.

"I voted for Gary Johnson! Btw Trump isn't that bad you guys and also Hillary is evil"

Yeah, totally subtle and not transparent at all.

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Von Cichlid wrote:

I work with plenty of Oriental and Indian persons and we get along pretty good, and some females as well.

Markeri, in 2013 wrote:

a fairly agreed upon date [of the beginning of metal] is 1969. Metal is almost 25 years old

Eh like any political party, there's a spectrum. I have self-proclaimed libertarian friends who generally lean more right than left and others more left than right. I don't think that's hypocritical. Plus, being "centrist" and "libertarian" is all the rage these days: all the cool kids are doing it - whether they know what they actually believe or not. When I hear a generation-X'er label themselves as such, I'm automatically skeptical haha.

"I voted for Gary Johnson! Btw Trump isn't that bad you guys and also Hillary is evil"

Yeah, totally subtle and not transparent at all.

Oh blargh. I blame Ron Paul, because of his Republican backdrop and his idiot son that libertarians worship despite the fact L'il Paul is obviously a line-towing Republican.

Kerrick wrote:

Eh like any political party, there's a spectrum. I have self-proclaimed libertarian friends who generally lean more right than left and others more left than right. I don't think that's hypocritical. Plus, being "centrist" and "libertarian" is all the rage these days: all the cool kids are doing it - whether they know what they actually believe or not. When I hear a generation-X'er label themselves as such, I'm automatically skeptical haha.

Oh shit, I'm a Gen-Xer that falls in there. Though, I don't self-identify with the big-L Libertarian party, and tend to be left-of-center these days.

Libertarianism is the kind of thing that sounds all smart and rational on the surface, but is immediately discarded once you become familiar with, well, reality. Unless you have no empathy for anyone, of course.

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Von Cichlid wrote:

I work with plenty of Oriental and Indian persons and we get along pretty good, and some females as well.

Markeri, in 2013 wrote:

a fairly agreed upon date [of the beginning of metal] is 1969. Metal is almost 25 years old

Well I guess from now on I'll have to read your posts with my judging, skeptical eyes.

I don't mind being called on my bullshit. I have learned to learn from it.

I once had a conversation with a guy about the "guns and mental health" thing, and he called me on my bullshit by asking me what I meant by the mental health argument. I went looking for sources, found out I was wrong, and then admitted as much. Turned out mental health was not a major issue where it pertains to gun violence.

Well I guess from now on I'll have to read your posts with my judging, skeptical eyes.

I don't mind being called on my bullshit. I have learned to learn from it.

I once had a conversation with a guy about the "guns and mental health" thing, and he called me on my bullshit by asking me what I meant by the mental health argument. I went looking for sources, found out I was wrong, and then admitted as much. Turned out mental health was not a major issue where it pertains to gun violence.

Never stop the skepticism.

Our country could use a lot more of your humility and wisdom (though by me saying that, it may negatively affect your humility haha). I'm sure there are plenty totally legitimate young libertarians/centrists - I know some - but there are a lot of posers and followers. I had a brief stint of that myself. For the 2008 election I ended up voting for the libertarian candidate Ron Paul, more as a hopeless means to attempt to do my part in helping give more strength to anyone BUT the two parties, though as time goes on, the more conservative I become. (For the record, I did NOT vote for Trump this past election; I wrote in some ultra-conservative Christian nobody from the midwest who never had a chance of winning, but the plus side is my conscious is clear and I can freely rip on whoever won because I didn't vote for them hahaha.)

I don't mind being called on my bullshit. I have learned to learn from it.

I once had a conversation with a guy about the "guns and mental health" thing, and he called me on my bullshit by asking me what I meant by the mental health argument. I went looking for sources, found out I was wrong, and then admitted as much. Turned out mental health was not a major issue where it pertains to gun violence.

Never stop the skepticism.

Our country could use a lot more of your humility and wisdom (though by me saying that, it may negatively affect your humility haha). I'm sure there are plenty totally legitimate young libertarians/centrists - I know some - but there are a lot of posers and followers. I had a brief stint of that myself. For the 2008 election I ended up voting for the libertarian candidate Ron Paul, more as a hopeless means to attempt to do my part in helping give more strength to anyone BUT the two parties, though as time goes on, the more conservative I become. (For the record, I did NOT vote for Trump this past election; I wrote in some ultra-conservative Christian nobody from the midwest who never had a chance of winning, but the plus side is my conscious is clear and I can freely rip on whoever won because I didn't vote for them hahaha.)

Man, people get pissed when you talk about the ability to read facts and adjust your views accordingly. Like jealous that they can't or some shit. That's when you get the "oh, you think you're better than me?" bullshit. Like, fuck you, anyone who says that is doing so because they perceive you as better and bitterly want to drag you down a peg. I've actually talked to people that I have fully proven to be wrong, who maintained their argument and literally said they were going to "go down with the ship," as if that's fucking honorable. No, it's not. Learning from your error is honorable. That is commendable. This seems to be a prevailing idea. Maintain your wrong/shitty view until the bitter end, cling to faith, like they're virtues. No they aren't. Fuck 'em.

I tend to vote for third parties, largely because I'm big on voting my conscience, as if everyone did that, our elections would be vastly different. I just agreed with the Libertarian and Green party stances better. Too bad their candidates were equally as bonkers as the Democrats and Republicans. The Last Week Tonight on Third Parties last year was depressingly on point. Ultimately, Hillary really was the best choice for this country for leadership. Glad my state went to her, or I'd have felt bad voting 3rd party, in the "oh fuck, I could've stopped Trump" kind of way.

Man, people get pissed when you talk about the ability to read facts and adjust your views accordingly. Like jealous that they can't or some shit. That's when you get the "oh, you think you're better than me?" bullshit. Like, fuck you, anyone who says that is doing so because they perceive you as better and bitterly want to drag you down a peg. I've actually talked to people that I have fully proven to be wrong, who maintained their argument and literally said they were going to "go down with the ship," as if that's fucking honorable. No, it's not. Learning from your error is honorable. That is commendable. This seems to be a prevailing idea. Maintain your wrong/shitty view until the bitter end, cling to faith, like they're virtues. No they aren't. Fuck 'em.

Amen. I think some of that could be a "learned behavior" from all the criticism political candidates inevitably ALWAYS receive when they "flip-flop" on a particular issue during their careers. It's considered a sign of weakness and foolishness: a lack of wisdom. What it really amounts to is an inflated ego and pride, IMO.

Ultimately, Hillary really was the best choice for this country for leadership. Glad my state went to her, or I'd have felt bad voting 3rd party, in the "oh fuck, I could've stopped Trump" kind of way.

You should feel bad regardless. Perpetuating this mindset that protest voting is viable during such a high stake election contributed to Clinton losing the election, even if your state went to her. Even more so considering how ridiculously stupid and unqualified the actual third party candidates are, they weren't even better people/candidates than her!

You had one job, Americans. Vote for the smart lady. If you did that, then I'm sorry for what is happening to your country right now. If you didn't, well, you get what you deserve.

_________________

Von Cichlid wrote:

I work with plenty of Oriental and Indian persons and we get along pretty good, and some females as well.

Markeri, in 2013 wrote:

a fairly agreed upon date [of the beginning of metal] is 1969. Metal is almost 25 years old

Yeah, you person who doesn't agree with Hillary! Feel bad for fulfilling your civic duty even though your state went that way anyway, thus meaning your vote didn't even matter! That's what'll get those disillusioned and/or disenfranchised masses going, a stern talking-to!

Congratulations to us all! Now we're this much closer to Waterworld becoming a reality!

Ultimately, Hillary really was the best choice for this country for leadership. Glad my state went to her, or I'd have felt bad voting 3rd party, in the "oh fuck, I could've stopped Trump" kind of way.

You should feel bad regardless. Perpetuating this mindset that protest voting is viable during such a high stake election contributed to Clinton losing the election, even if your state went to her. Even more so considering how ridiculously stupid and unqualified the actual third party candidates are, they weren't even better people/candidates than her!

You had one job, Americans. Vote for the smart lady. If you did that, then I'm sorry for what is happening to your country right now. If you didn't, well, you get what you deserve.

Oh I didn't protest vote, I voted my conscience. I'd researched metrics that each candidate stood by (except for Trump, I don't need to research him much to know there's no fucking way I was going to vote for that monster), and I simply aligned with who I ultimately did vote for. This is how I rant that people should vote.

At the same time, I had mixed views on it--vote my conscience, or vote against the far lesser of two evils? There was reports of a lot of libertarian-leaning voters going for Hillary in an "anyone but Trump" kind of capacity. The idea of "there's no way he'll win" was also toxically pervasive, as was the perception that "these choices full-on suck, I'm not voting for anyone." We are now paying for that hubris.

In the end, I personally did not contribute to Hillary losing (this state is perpetual blue), but I understand how the mindset contributed. Can't deny that. And it was troubling seeing for some swing states that third parties racked up enough votes to seriously damage numbers for Trump, Hillary, or both. In the end though, this system is still fucking broken, Hillary got more votes, and they still gave the presidency to Trump.

Not arguing the qualifications of Johnson or Stein--not to avoid it, but as I agree, Hillary was more qualified. Johnson had at least been governor, I don't remember about Stein, but he is shit at climate change and she supported conspiracy theories.

To be fair, and this may be a good insight into some of my decision-making, I'll note that my political views have drastically changed over the years. When I was younger, I was easily influenced by my Dad--a great man, who never-the-less held some out-dated Republicany views. One of the most important parts of growing up is realizing that your parents are wrong about some (or many) things, and being able to form your own views apart from that. I may have been slow to do so. But, as my Dad's time was winding down, I also did not want to risk spoiling our remaining time together with, ultimately, petty bullshit. (I sometimes wonder if I should have hidden my atheism better, or talked to him about it, but too late now.) I was much, much more right-wing just a decade ago, then later considered myself far more libertarian, and now am handily left of center. This shit takes time, but it can happen, and unfortunately, I can't pinpoint any trigger points that sparked change.

It also took cautious steps--when you've held certain views for a long time, it can be hard to overcome them completely. I understand part of why Hillary lost, because her career, whether real, exaggerated, imagined, or otherwise, the perception still floated in a public consciousness. People didn't trust her, I didn't trust her. Trump capitalized on this, and Hillary did a poor job reversing it. I never would have wanted her to be president just one or two election cycles ago.

Personally, I find the idea of someone identifying along party lines to be idiotic, which is why I was always hesitant to actually consider myself a Big-L Libertarian. Some of these people piss me off to no fucking end, particularly in the heavy adoption of conspiracy theories and faux-anarchic viewpoints. Parties change in time. Republicans used to care about the environment. Democrats used to defend slavery. Times change, parties change. As I got deeper into humanism, skepticism, and atheism, my political views generally followed suit.

I don't know if that suffices. I had considered doing a thread on here for how much people had changed over the years, influences they'd had, things of that nature. In large part because this was the first place I regularly posted strange aeons ago, a lot of the conversations here were things I didn't experience elsewhere, and in time, a lot of my views and understanding has changed. I doubt anyone remembers from that time, but the Resident_Hazard of 2004 is not the same Resident_Hazard of 2017. Genetically, yes, but intellectually (if that fits), there are massive differences.

...aaaaand there goes the US part in the Paris Accords. Boy, did you folks shoot yourselves in the leg! Lost a kneecap there, and managed to get the bullet through the foot, too. It also ricocheted from the marble floor, and went back up through the heel.

While you're busy doing that, China invests 264 BILLION US dollars' worth in clean tech A YEAR. Europe is already talking about allying with China on the climate issues. Guess who got the shorter straw here?

...aaaaand there goes the US part in the Paris Accords. Boy, did you folks shoot yourselves in the leg! Lost a kneecap there, and managed to get the bullet through the foot, too. It also ricocheted from the marble floor, and went back up through the heel.

While you're busy doing that, China invests 264 BILLION US dollars' worth in clean tech A YEAR. Europe is already talking about allying with China on the climate issues. Guess who got the shorter straw here?

Shit, people. Unbelievable.

Because the world we leave our children doesn't fucking matter.

Fine. If we don't get rid of Trump, this will be a continuing spiral into a fall of a country. Germany, France, and China will be the world leaders for us to look to.

This is a fucking mess. This is the worst president this country has ever had.

I mean, the suits running large corporations and what not are the people of the US so he's not technically a complete liar(!)

To take it even further back to the source: Trump is a US people! So he's definitely not lying about who he's fighting for. Any media outlet that says otherwise is fake news!

As an european I'm glad we (seem to) be getting more proactive in deciding our future course instead of just following the US. Not that the EU will be better off in any way now that Trump is president, but it's good to see our leaders taking a stance against him and his administration.

Last edited by henkkjelle on Thu Jun 01, 2017 4:50 pm, edited 2 times in total.

"raises hand* you realize you can choose to protect the environment yourself and don't need the government to do it, right?"

[facepalm] What I do personally will have far less impact than something on a national scale, esp. when many don't believe there is any need to protect the environment (and think Trump getting out of it is evidence of this).

Resident_Hazard wrote:

Several times since then, he's gone on "sharing rampages" shoveling out all manner of lunacy from the worst of Facebook. Conspiracy theories, debunked bullshit, a weird fucking meme from David Icke of all people where they have convinced themselves that anyone called a "conspiracy theorist" is actually someone who "really sees the truth." I have posted debunking a good third of his shit, but come the fuck on. When do people learn to do research? He also shared that racist M&M's meme about how "10 out of 10,000 M&Ms are poison, he wouldn't eat them" referring to Syrians.

There seems to be a feeling that they are right and being martyred. I once read a psychology site thing about conspiracy theorists often being people who feel powerless, and they get into this to believe they are special and more knowledgeable, and everyone else is against them.

This guy I was talking about is so profoundly stupid that I unfollowed him today. Considered unfriending, but for now, just unfollowed (and just posted about Alex Jones being an idiot scumbag).

Resident_Hazard wrote:

On top of all this, he regularly tries to argue that he's a "middle of the road" Centrist or Libertarian, yet literally only shares (among his conspiracy theories) anti-left memes from hard pro-right FB pages and sites, and regularly defends Trump.

This guy, too. He was complaining about losing his health insurance and how Trump is going to fight for the "little guy" and fix health insurance. Why would you even think that? What about Trump would make ANYONE think he cares about the poor and the middle class? Same guy posts anti-vax stuff (he has 5 kids, too) but what made me facepalm hardest was still the idea of Snoop Dogg being in the illuminati. I have repeatedly said on FB that I think Sandy Hook Truthers are the lowest fucking scum on the planet. This one backpedaled about that, but openly follows Alex Jones.

I also had a Trump fan tell me, before the election, that while Trump had bad ideas, he "wasn't dangerous" and was "better than Hillary" because Congress would stop his bad ideas. So he supported him and even he agreed most of the things he said have been stupid.

Elsewhere online someone told me that he respects Trump because he "always keeps his promises." [facepalm] In what alternate reality does that happen?

One thing I really worry about though, is Trump's undermining of the press and generally being against freedom of press, because once you get people to disbelieve all press coverage by shouting "fake news" and "they invented these sources" then you end up with his followers believing anything he says, right or wrong, not valuing evidence, etc. If you try to debunk something with evidence, they simply reply that it's manufactured and will never be convinced.