orthonorm, if this is really going to get moved to the private forum (which it should), could you please state your stance on homosexuality and Orthodoxy?

Should an unmarried heterosexual couple who is actively having sex commune in an Orthodox Church? I don't think so, it's no different than a homosexual couple either. Homosexuals and Heterosexuals have to remain completely chaste until marriage. But Homosexuals cannot get married in our church, so they have to remain chaste their whole lives.

I can assure you heterosexuals having sex before marriage known to their Priest are communed. Over. And. Over. And. Over.

And what about masturbation?

And every other sin people do knowingly and repetitively.

Yes, but if a very public member of the OCA came out in favor of masturbation, lying, premarital sex and gluttony, the fallout would be the same. They're all sins. What's your point?

Why do you care and think this has one iota of an effect on anyone besides places like here?

Jim, I know you ain't been around long.

Financial scandal much?

The financial scandal you're referring to, which I'm plenty aware of, has nothing to do with this, and I don't think you'll find anyone on this board who is in support of it, whatever that would mean...

I'd like to see you answer devin...

Answer to what?

I meant that I'd like to see orthonorm respond to your question about where he stands on homosexuality and orthodoxy, which he's skirted, in favor of making general statements about hypocrisy, and about things he assumes about my life...

Logged

It is not the task of Christianity to provide easy answers to every question, but to make us progressively aware of a mystery. God is not so much the object of our knowledge as the cause of our wonder.-Metropolitan Kallistos Ware

I'm not saying that eastern Europe is more tolerant of homosexuality than urban America. Far from it. But when it comes to church, there is this laissez faire attitude many here in America do not get.

thing is, it isn't laissez-faire, it is entirely the church's business... We are slaves to Christ, and we submit ourselves to his Church. You cannot be an Orthodox Christian, and then tell the Church to stay out of your private life.

that's what they taught you in Sunday school?

It is what the Orthodox Church teaches. Do you read anything about the Church?

The books say many things, it doesn't mean they are actually gonna be scrupulously enforced. But you'll noy get it.

if our church doesn't "enforce" those things, then it is dead... that cannot and will not ever happen though...

What you are saying is that the church should just ignore it's laws regarding private lives, therefore, it shouldn't get involved in anything with our private lives...

well then, the church would just be in hell if that were to happen, and Satan has won... Thank God that isn't going to happen... Ever...

homosexuals must live completely chaste lifestyles, if one has a "partner", then one is clearly actively rejecting the teachings of the church.

Do you yourself as a heterosexual live a "completely chaste life"?

Logged

She hears, upon that water without sound, A voice that cries, “The tomb in Palestine Is not the porch of spirits lingering. It is the grave of Jesus, where he lay.” We live in an old chaos of the sun, Or old dependency of day and night, Or island solitude, unsponsored, free, Of that wide water, inescapable.

And what is this age obsession? I'm 26. I've seen pictures of you on this board. You're clearly not an old man. You might be what, 8-10 years older than me? I lived in GA for 2 years, and my fathers family is from there. I didn't say born and raised, I said lived, which is what you accused me of having not done. Like most of your accusations, it was off base. Your insistence on personally attacking me every time we disagree is incredible.

Obsession? Starting to get a bit hysterical. I brought it up once. Please don't PM me. The bolded message is lulz. Show one "personal attack".

Two years? Lulz at you.

If living means staying somewhere long enough to learn how complete a degree in soldering, then I have lived . . .

Seven states and five countries, which is ridiculous.

If you want to bring this to the man, I am glad to, cause the case will be closed.

I'm not saying that eastern Europe is more tolerant of homosexuality than urban America. Far from it. But when it comes to church, there is this laissez faire attitude many here in America do not get.

thing is, it isn't laissez-faire, it is entirely the church's business... We are slaves to Christ, and we submit ourselves to his Church. You cannot be an Orthodox Christian, and then tell the Church to stay out of your private life.

that's what they taught you in Sunday school?

It is what the Orthodox Church teaches. Do you read anything about the Church?

The books say many things, it doesn't mean they are actually gonna be scrupulously enforced. But you'll noy get it.

if our church doesn't "enforce" those things, then it is dead... that cannot and will not ever happen though...

What you are saying is that the church should just ignore it's laws regarding private lives, therefore, it shouldn't get involved in anything with our private lives...

well then, the church would just be in hell if that were to happen, and Satan has won... Thank God that isn't going to happen... Ever...

You wanna run the church like the seventh day adventist sect or something. good luck with that, but i do not see it coming. for that you'd need born again people.

Logged

She hears, upon that water without sound, A voice that cries, “The tomb in Palestine Is not the porch of spirits lingering. It is the grave of Jesus, where he lay.” We live in an old chaos of the sun, Or old dependency of day and night, Or island solitude, unsponsored, free, Of that wide water, inescapable.

homosexuals must live completely chaste lifestyles, if one has a "partner", then one is clearly actively rejecting the teachings of the church.

Do you yourself as a heterosexual live a "completely chaste life"?

Yes, but that doesn't mean I'm completely holy and spotless. That just means I'm within Orthodoxy, I might struggle with things like all people do, but living chaste lives is what we are all called to do until marriage.

orthonorm, if this is really going to get moved to the private forum (which it should), could you please state your stance on homosexuality and Orthodoxy?

Should an unmarried heterosexual couple who is actively having sex commune in an Orthodox Church? I don't think so, it's no different than a homosexual couple either. Homosexuals and Heterosexuals have to remain completely chaste until marriage. But Homosexuals cannot get married in our church, so they have to remain chaste their whole lives.

I can assure you heterosexuals having sex before marriage known to their Priest are communed. Over. And. Over. And. Over.

And what about masturbation?

And every other sin people do knowingly and repetitively.

Yes, but if a very public member of the OCA came out in favor of masturbation, lying, premarital sex and gluttony, the fallout would be the same. They're all sins. What's your point?

Why do you care and think this has one iota of an effect on anyone besides places like here?

Jim, I know you ain't been around long.

Financial scandal much?

The financial scandal you're referring to, which I'm plenty aware of, has nothing to do with this, and I don't think you'll find anyone on this board who is in support of it, whatever that would mean...

I'd like to see you answer devin...

Answer to what?

I meant that I'd like to see orthonorm respond to your question about where he stands on homosexuality and orthodoxy, which he's skirted, in favor of making general statements about hypocrisy, and about things he assumes about my life...

Proven to be known out of your mouth.

I didn't skirt on anything.

If some Priest came out saying he thought overeating was OK, would this be the reaction?

homosexuals must live completely chaste lifestyles, if one has a "partner", then one is clearly actively rejecting the teachings of the church.

Do you yourself as a heterosexual live a "completely chaste life"?

Yes, but that doesn't mean I'm completely holy and spotless. That just means I'm within Orthodoxy, I might struggle with things like all people do, but living chaste lives is what we are all called to do until marriage.

augustin, you clearly seem to have a hatred for converts.

Only if they try to run parishes in a cult-like manner. But that's not a phenomenon unique to converts.

Logged

She hears, upon that water without sound, A voice that cries, “The tomb in Palestine Is not the porch of spirits lingering. It is the grave of Jesus, where he lay.” We live in an old chaos of the sun, Or old dependency of day and night, Or island solitude, unsponsored, free, Of that wide water, inescapable.

And what is this age obsession? I'm 26. I've seen pictures of you on this board. You're clearly not an old man. You might be what, 8-10 years older than me? I lived in GA for 2 years, and my fathers family is from there. I didn't say born and raised, I said lived, which is what you accused me of having not done. Like most of your accusations, it was off base. Your insistence on personally attacking me every time we disagree is incredible.

Obsession? Starting to get a bit hysterical. I brought it up once. Please don't PM me. The bolded message is lulz. Show one "personal attack".

Two years? Lulz at you.

If living means staying somewhere long enough to learn how complete a degree in soldering, then I have lived . . .

Seven states and five countries, which is ridiculous.

If you want to bring this to the man, I am glad to, cause the case will be closed.

At least you are reliable.

I'm not sure what 7 states and 5 countries is supposed to mean, and I don't know who "the man" is.

I have no intention on pm'ing you, I'm simply wondering why you constantly deviate from whatever is being discussed and talk about how old I am, where I've lived, how long I've been orthodox, or how much you think I know, each of which you've done to me a least twice. I haven't ever done any of this to you, except in response to your own accusations towards me.

RE: "proven out of my mouth", you accused me of taking a trip abroad to Russia, and that being the extent of it. This is clearly not so. You accused me of never having lived in "fly-over" states. This is not so. You've accused me of being much younger than you. From your photo, this is not so. You've done this countless times.

More than anything, I still want to see you answer devin.

Logged

It is not the task of Christianity to provide easy answers to every question, but to make us progressively aware of a mystery. God is not so much the object of our knowledge as the cause of our wonder.-Metropolitan Kallistos Ware

Can we move this to politics private now, so that we can really speak openly?

//:=)

1. There's no private board for such discussions as this.2. If you think this thread should be moved, why haven't you sent a report to the moderators so we can read it?

The Jewish Barber means it is in jest. More of a dream than a reality.

Well, I certainly DO believe that this debate has become far too hot for Christian News, so I moved it here to Religious Topics. Have fun, but do remember that this still on the Public Forum, where personal attacks are forbidden.

I ain't no convert. At my parish you have wait a while nowadays usually more than a year and have consistent participation in the parish, before being received for the most part.

Augustin, I guess will start hating me then. Till then, it is tea and crumpets.

Logged

She hears, upon that water without sound, A voice that cries, “The tomb in Palestine Is not the porch of spirits lingering. It is the grave of Jesus, where he lay.” We live in an old chaos of the sun, Or old dependency of day and night, Or island solitude, unsponsored, free, Of that wide water, inescapable.

She hears, upon that water without sound, A voice that cries, “The tomb in Palestine Is not the porch of spirits lingering. It is the grave of Jesus, where he lay.” We live in an old chaos of the sun, Or old dependency of day and night, Or island solitude, unsponsored, free, Of that wide water, inescapable.

homosexuals must live completely chaste lifestyles, if one has a "partner", then one is clearly actively rejecting the teachings of the church.

Do you yourself as a heterosexual live a "completely chaste life"?

Yes, but that doesn't mean I'm completely holy and spotless. That just means I'm within Orthodoxy, I might struggle with things like all people do, but living chaste lives is what we are all called to do until marriage.

augustin, you clearly seem to have a hatred for converts.

Only if they try to run parishes in a cult-like manner. But that's not a phenomenon unique to converts.

Hmm... so i guess it is cult-like to go to confession every 2-4 weeks, while also sitting down to talk to your Priest about your life and how things are going, and then also receiving communion every Liturgy, as long as you have been faithfully attending confession...

The thing about the Church, is that it is entirely voluntary. However, if you choose not to participate in its mysteries, or hold the same faith, then you're choosing not to be a part of the Church. It's not the Church that kicks you out, it's yourself. Like in the Garden, when Adam & Eve disobeyed God, it wasn't God that punished them, it was their own act that doomed them.

If you disagree with the church, does that mean you shouldn't go to church? No... But it does mean you should refrain from participating in her mysteries, and that you need to be in active contact and under spiritual guidance with your Priest and/or a spiritual father. You should seek to reunite yourself to the Church so you can receive her mysteries again.

homosexuals must live completely chaste lifestyles, if one has a "partner", then one is clearly actively rejecting the teachings of the church.

Do you yourself as a heterosexual live a "completely chaste life"?

Yes, but that doesn't mean I'm completely holy and spotless. That just means I'm within Orthodoxy, I might struggle with things like all people do, but living chaste lives is what we are all called to do until marriage.

augustin, you clearly seem to have a hatred for converts.

Only if they try to run parishes in a cult-like manner. But that's not a phenomenon unique to converts.

Hmm... so i guess it is cult-like to go to confession every 2-4 weeks, while also sitting down to talk to your Priest about your life and how things are going, and then also receiving communion every Liturgy, as long as you have been faithfully attending confession...

The thing about the Church, is that it is entirely voluntary. However, if you choose not to participate in its mysteries, or hold the same faith, then you're choosing not to be a part of the Church. It's not the Church that kicks you out, it's yourself. Like in the Garden, when Adam & Eve disobeyed God, it wasn't God that punished them, it was their own act that doomed them.

Where I come from church is not a voluntary phenomenon. It's accidental. Happily so.

Logged

She hears, upon that water without sound, A voice that cries, “The tomb in Palestine Is not the porch of spirits lingering. It is the grave of Jesus, where he lay.” We live in an old chaos of the sun, Or old dependency of day and night, Or island solitude, unsponsored, free, Of that wide water, inescapable.

It's odd that you pawn this (like everything else) off on Protestantism, when Protestantism, at large, is more accepting of homosexuality. To suggest that these things should be a non-issue to the OC is silly. Have you been to Eastern Europe? And yes, I know you have.

The more I read this, the more I realize how little you do know what you are talking when you post.

Please can you give you ANY backing for this.

God hates Fags much?

Or every other "fly over" State church minister you ain't seen write an op-ed in the Times?

Yeah, Good ol' America has just been sweet to the gays.

I've seen Fred Phelps's rallies. His church is about 8 strong. How big were those anti-gay riots in Moscow?

The GHF bunch represents about .008 of American society, and it's plain hipsterism, as you would say, to generalize about the fly-over states.

I've lived there. You ain't.

You have no idea what you are talking about.

And it has nothing to do with hipsterism.

Again, deflecting.

Where is your PROOF for your statement.

Again, please stop assuming. I've lived in Georgia for quite a while, and lived briefly in MN and UT.

Which statement?

Ahh?? The one in bold. You ain't been alive to have lived anywhere quite a while.

CAUTION: Unless you're prepared to show how Jim's relative youth disqualifies him from being an authority on this matter (which I don't see, since 26 really is old enough to have experienced life), focusing on one's age technically matches the definition of ad hominem.

homosexuals must live completely chaste lifestyles, if one has a "partner", then one is clearly actively rejecting the teachings of the church.

Do you yourself as a heterosexual live a "completely chaste life"?

Christ did, and expects us to, whatever our inclinations.

But bogdan, why do we throw sooooo much of Christ's teaching out the window or minimize it, except when it comes to the bedroom.

You give the last person who asked you for something, three times as much?

But that was prophetic hyperbole . . .

As was being an adulterer for having lust in one's heart, but we can't be perfect. As long as we remain pious and say we are trying to do to better . . .

It seems the problem folks have here is a problem with homosexuality and the honesty.

Without sin and stones and all that.

How many people in your parish have given all to Christ? And how many times do we even hear Priests say: that is the "ideal", but . . .

Just admit you're selfish and don't put God first and don't see yourself changing in the future and then you will be just as honest at least as a guy who says he is gay and ain't looking to stop.

The hypocrisy is just epic in times like this.

The problem arises when that gay person refuses to change, and refuses to stop... If we are in the Church, we are looking for salvation, and we are called to repentance. No matter what, we need to be looking to change ourselves. If we aren't doing that, then we are basically telling Christ that we don't need him.

No, but I think that orthonorm's stance, and your stance regarding homosexuality and orthodoxy are pretty relevant to this discussion, and one's stance extends beyond saying, "there are other sins, too", and telling me that I'm ignorant because I haven't lived in Davenport, IA for 77 years.

That argument doesn't actually say anything. It somehow assumes that everyone here who is anti-homosexuality is also pro-adultery, gluttony, lying, pride, and just about every other sin. Yes, we all sin, we get it. This does not preclude us from disliking sin.

« Last Edit: August 10, 2011, 02:30:06 AM by JimCBrooklyn »

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It is not the task of Christianity to provide easy answers to every question, but to make us progressively aware of a mystery. God is not so much the object of our knowledge as the cause of our wonder.-Metropolitan Kallistos Ware

homosexuals must live completely chaste lifestyles, if one has a "partner", then one is clearly actively rejecting the teachings of the church.

Do you yourself as a heterosexual live a "completely chaste life"?

Christ did, and expects us to, whatever our inclinations.

Right.But bogdan, why do we throw sooooo much of Christ's teaching out the window or minimize it, except when it comes to the bedroom.

You give the last person who asked you for something, three times as much?

But that was prophetic hyperbole . . .

As was being an adulterer for having lust in one's heart, but we can't be perfect. As long as we remain pious and say we are trying to do to better . . .

It seems the problem folks have here is a problem with homosexuality and the honesty.

Without sin and stones and all that.

How many people in your parish have given all to Christ? And how many times do we even hear Priests say: that is the "ideal", but . . .

Just admit you're selfish and don't put God first and don't see yourself changing in the future and then you will be just as honest at least as a guy who says he is gay and ain't looking to stop.

The hypocrisy is just epic in times like this.

The problem arises when that gay person refuses to change, and refuses to stop... If we are in the Church, we are looking for salvation, and we are called to repentance. No matter what, we need to be looking to change ourselves. If we aren't doing that, then we are basically telling Christ that we don't need him.

Right.

« Last Edit: August 10, 2011, 02:29:16 AM by JimCBrooklyn »

Logged

It is not the task of Christianity to provide easy answers to every question, but to make us progressively aware of a mystery. God is not so much the object of our knowledge as the cause of our wonder.-Metropolitan Kallistos Ware

homosexuals must live completely chaste lifestyles, if one has a "partner", then one is clearly actively rejecting the teachings of the church.

Do you yourself as a heterosexual live a "completely chaste life"?

Yes, but that doesn't mean I'm completely holy and spotless. That just means I'm within Orthodoxy, I might struggle with things like all people do, but living chaste lives is what we are all called to do until marriage.

augustin, you clearly seem to have a hatred for converts.

Only if they try to run parishes in a cult-like manner. But that's not a phenomenon unique to converts.

Hmm... so i guess it is cult-like to go to confession every 2-4 weeks, while also sitting down to talk to your Priest about your life and how things are going, and then also receiving communion every Liturgy, as long as you have been faithfully attending confession...

The thing about the Church, is that it is entirely voluntary. However, if you choose not to participate in its mysteries, or hold the same faith, then you're choosing not to be a part of the Church. It's not the Church that kicks you out, it's yourself. Like in the Garden, when Adam & Eve disobeyed God, it wasn't God that punished them, it was their own act that doomed them.

Where I come from church is not a voluntary phenomenon. It's accidental. Happily so.

Yes, we know how you believe that Christ called us to be Orthodox in name only. But most everyone else here knows better.

I do not have a stance other than: leave them alone [insert expletive here]!

Logged

She hears, upon that water without sound, A voice that cries, “The tomb in Palestine Is not the porch of spirits lingering. It is the grave of Jesus, where he lay.” We live in an old chaos of the sun, Or old dependency of day and night, Or island solitude, unsponsored, free, Of that wide water, inescapable.

And what is this age obsession? I'm 26. I've seen pictures of you on this board. You're clearly not an old man. You might be what, 8-10 years older than me? I lived in GA for 2 years, and my fathers family is from there. I didn't say born and raised, I said lived, which is what you accused me of having not done. Like most of your accusations, it was off base. Your insistence on personally attacking me every time we disagree is incredible.

Obsession? Starting to get a bit hysterical. I brought it up once. Please don't PM me. The bolded message is lulz. Show one "personal attack".

Two years? Lulz at you.

If living means staying somewhere long enough to learn how complete a degree in soldering, then I have lived . . .

Seven states and five countries, which is ridiculous.

If you want to bring this to the man, I am glad to, cause the case will be closed.

At least you are reliable.

I'm not sure what 7 states and 5 countries is supposed to mean, and I don't know who "the man" is.

I have no intention on pm'ing you, I'm simply wondering why you constantly deviate from whatever is being discussed and talk about how old I am, where I've lived, how long I've been orthodox, or how much you think I know, each of which you've done to me a least twice. I haven't ever done any of this to you, except in response to your own accusations towards me.

RE: "proven out of my mouth", you accused me of taking a trip abroad to Russia, and that being the extent of it. This is clearly not so. You accused me of never having lived in "fly-over" states. This is not so. You've accused me of being much younger than you. From your photo, this is not so. You've done this countless times.

More than anything, I still want to see you answer devin.

I have. And I guess we both are getting our quotes confused. I hope this breaks the cycle.

It is all true. You ain't old enough to have lived everywhere you listed, except in the mind of some American tourist. That was my point.

And what is this age obsession? I'm 26. I've seen pictures of you on this board. You're clearly not an old man. You might be what, 8-10 years older than me? I lived in GA for 2 years, and my fathers family is from there. I didn't say born and raised, I said lived, which is what you accused me of having not done. Like most of your accusations, it was off base. Your insistence on personally attacking me every time we disagree is incredible.

Obsession? Starting to get a bit hysterical. I brought it up once. Please don't PM me. The bolded message is lulz. Show one "personal attack".

Two years? Lulz at you.

If living means staying somewhere long enough to learn how complete a degree in soldering, then I have lived . . .

Seven states and five countries, which is ridiculous.

If you want to bring this to the man, I am glad to, cause the case will be closed.

At least you are reliable.

I'm not sure what 7 states and 5 countries is supposed to mean, and I don't know who "the man" is.

I have no intention on pm'ing you, I'm simply wondering why you constantly deviate from whatever is being discussed and talk about how old I am, where I've lived, how long I've been orthodox, or how much you think I know, each of which you've done to me a least twice. I haven't ever done any of this to you, except in response to your own accusations towards me.

RE: "proven out of my mouth", you accused me of taking a trip abroad to Russia, and that being the extent of it. This is clearly not so. You accused me of never having lived in "fly-over" states. This is not so. You've accused me of being much younger than you. From your photo, this is not so. You've done this countless times.

More than anything, I still want to see you answer devin.

I have. And I guess we both are getting our quotes confused. I hope this breaks the cycle.

It is all true. You ain't old enough to have lived everywhere you listed, except in the mind of some American tourist. That was my point.

homosexuals must live completely chaste lifestyles, if one has a "partner", then one is clearly actively rejecting the teachings of the church.

Do you yourself as a heterosexual live a "completely chaste life"?

Christ did, and expects us to, whatever our inclinations.

Right.But bogdan, why do we throw sooooo much of Christ's teaching out the window or minimize it, except when it comes to the bedroom.

You give the last person who asked you for something, three times as much?

But that was prophetic hyperbole . . .

As was being an adulterer for having lust in one's heart, but we can't be perfect. As long as we remain pious and say we are trying to do to better . . .

It seems the problem folks have here is a problem with homosexuality and the honesty.

Without sin and stones and all that.

How many people in your parish have given all to Christ? And how many times do we even hear Priests say: that is the "ideal", but . . .

Just admit you're selfish and don't put God first and don't see yourself changing in the future and then you will be just as honest at least as a guy who says he is gay and ain't looking to stop.

The hypocrisy is just epic in times like this.

The problem arises when that gay person refuses to change, and refuses to stop... If we are in the Church, we are looking for salvation, and we are called to repentance. No matter what, we need to be looking to change ourselves. If we aren't doing that, then we are basically telling Christ that we don't need him.

1) You referenced the length of my orthodoxy when you brought up the financial scandal.2) Again, tell me how living in Russia half of the time, maintaining permanent residence there, having spent 3 years there total, being married to a Russian, who ive been with for 9 years, and being invested and active in business there, is somehow just a trip abroad. 3) you still haven't answered devin's question.4) how old are you, anyway, if you're going to keep referencing my age and incredible lack of experience in anything?

« Last Edit: August 10, 2011, 02:38:37 AM by JimCBrooklyn »

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It is not the task of Christianity to provide easy answers to every question, but to make us progressively aware of a mystery. God is not so much the object of our knowledge as the cause of our wonder.-Metropolitan Kallistos Ware

I do not have a stance other than: leave them alone [insert expletive here]!

Weird how the backward Romanian who believes in silly stuff like, if he doesn't sprinkle a grave for 40 days after someone's death with water blessed by a clairvoyant Elder on Mt. Athos, the person will become a vampire, understands not jumping someone's over their sexuality and what they say one facebook is the sane response.

I guess if a friend is threatening to kill himself, it is none of my concern, I should just leave him be and stay out of his life, even if he is on the edge of a cliff...

Its not like we are just playing with something minor here, we are messing with fire, we are messing with the possibility of eternal separation from God.

I guess I'm a horrible person for wanting everyone to avoid such a fate...

You haven't got a clue if you only see the possibility of "eternal separation from God" in a sin some other than you is tempted by. Anyways, success in your endeavour.

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She hears, upon that water without sound, A voice that cries, “The tomb in Palestine Is not the porch of spirits lingering. It is the grave of Jesus, where he lay.” We live in an old chaos of the sun, Or old dependency of day and night, Or island solitude, unsponsored, free, Of that wide water, inescapable.

I guess if a friend is threatening to kill himself, it is none of my concern, I should just leave him be and stay out of his life, even if he is on the edge of a cliff...

Its not like we are just playing with something minor here, we are messing with fire, we are messing with the possibility of eternal separation from God.

I guess I'm a horrible person for wanting everyone to avoid such a fate...

Again, right. This is the whole point.

For one, we're not even discussing any individual's struggle with homosexuality here. This whole back and forth began with 2 sticking points:1) Whether Protestantism, generally was more accepting of homosexuality, which this list, one more tine: http://www.gaychurch.org/Find_a_Church/find_a_church.htm, sheds some good light on2) Whether homosexuality, as an overall behavior and idea, can be accepted by anyone who is an Orthodox Christian. We still don't know how orthonorm feels about it, and we can only gather that augustin doesn't care. It would follow, then, that he doesn't care about murder, lying, drug abuse, or adultery, as it would be an intrusion on people's privacy, unless he doesn't believe that homosexuality is inherently sinful, which is a whole other thing, and would surprise me.

« Last Edit: August 10, 2011, 02:52:12 AM by JimCBrooklyn »

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It is not the task of Christianity to provide easy answers to every question, but to make us progressively aware of a mystery. God is not so much the object of our knowledge as the cause of our wonder.-Metropolitan Kallistos Ware

He also shared a cell, apparently, with Gleb Podmoshenski. The irony...But yeah, I can see how formerly conservative Protestants get all excited over this stuff. It's actually what made them come into the OC. Who cares.

Why are you so upset about this? A number of us conservative converts wouldn't have a problem with Mark Stoko's homosexuality if their wasn't a movement within American Orthodox jurisdictions to find a way to overturn Orthodox tradition in this area.

Why aren't you upset at the groups who were trying to find some loop hole to over turn Orthodox tradition? Why are you fussing at us for? What did we do?

I would feel the same way if there was a group of Gluttons trying to find a loop hole to over turn our fasting traditions. Look, It's not about people in the Church being Gluttons or homosexuals. It's about preserving the Faith for the next generation.

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"loving one's enemies does not mean loving wickedness, ungodliness, adultery, or theft. Rather, it means loving the theif, the ungodly, and the adulterer." Clement of Alexandria 195 A.D.

If you think that two or three or whatever number of adults bumping uglies together is on par with murder than there is nothing I can say.

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She hears, upon that water without sound, A voice that cries, “The tomb in Palestine Is not the porch of spirits lingering. It is the grave of Jesus, where he lay.” We live in an old chaos of the sun, Or old dependency of day and night, Or island solitude, unsponsored, free, Of that wide water, inescapable.

He also shared a cell, apparently, with Gleb Podmoshenski. The irony...But yeah, I can see how formerly conservative Protestants get all excited over this stuff. It's actually what made them come into the OC. Who cares.

Why are you so upset about this? A number of us conservative converts wouldn't have a problem with Mark Stoko's homosexuality if their wasn't a movement within American Orthodox jurisdictions to find a way to overturn Orthodox tradition in this area.

Why aren't you upset at the groups who were trying to find some loop hole to over turn Orthodox tradition? Why are you fussing at us for? What did we do?

I would feel the same way if there was a group of Gluttons trying to find a loop hole to over turn our fasting traditions. Look, It's not about people in the Church being Gluttons or homosexuals. It's about preserving the Faith for the next generation.

Watch out for the neocon cabal trying to align Orthodoxy with a certain party.

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She hears, upon that water without sound, A voice that cries, “The tomb in Palestine Is not the porch of spirits lingering. It is the grave of Jesus, where he lay.” We live in an old chaos of the sun, Or old dependency of day and night, Or island solitude, unsponsored, free, Of that wide water, inescapable.

1) You referenced the length of my orthodoxy when you brought up the financial scandal.2) Again, tell me how living in Russia half of the time, maintaining permanent residence there, having spent 3 years there total, being married to a Russian, who ive been with for 9 years, and being invested and active in business there, is somehow just a trip abroad. 3) you still haven't answered devin's question.4) how old are you, anyway, if you're going to keep referencing my age and incredible lack of experience in anything?

lulz @ you. I certainly can draw you in. You really would be better off not taking me so seriously, as you are only proving my point.

1.) I was referring to HERE. OC.net. I made no mention of your . . . I never wanted to, but it seems like it is a problem for you.

2.) Again 3 years? Wait your wife is Russian and you have invested money there? Hey I dated a Romanian for four years and bought half of Transylvania at least three rounds. Can I be Romanian too? If you really want to go down this line, which I don't as most can read between your line, it will just get uglier.

3.) I did.

4.) I said you are not old enough to have lived everywhere you say, as you proven, outside the mind of an American. Identity through consumption. Jim you have married and bought enough of Russia to be Russian, congratulations.

Was PMing someone earlier mentioning I have never lived anywhere for longer than 4 years and that is just recently. I've live in more countries for longer than you have in Russia. Who cares?

If you think that two or three or whatever number of adults bumping uglies together is on par with murder than there is nothing I can say.

I don't. You're deflecting. I listed some other sins. Some were greater, some lesser, some on par. Yu didn't address the actual point I made.

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It is not the task of Christianity to provide easy answers to every question, but to make us progressively aware of a mystery. God is not so much the object of our knowledge as the cause of our wonder.-Metropolitan Kallistos Ware