Arsenal Protest > DO NOTHING | Wenger trots out humiliating excuse

It’s a big day today, Arsene Wenger is aware of the protest, that of the ‘DO NOTHING’ variety, that may or may not take place this evening.

I don’t have a ticket, but I wouldn’t go. Dicking a few teams on their holiday’s after the total capitulation on all fronts we’ve faced this season (FA Cup is coming) doesn’t have me convinced Wenger is right to lead us forward. The hope for the fans right now is that Ivan can utilise the leverage he may or may not have going into the big contract negotiations post season.

One item he might be able to lean on is the lack of fans in the ground. I had some back and forth about this online. Some people are saying that not going isn’t a protest… err… kind of the biggest protest you can make as a fan.

Protesting outside the ground is a bit ridiculous when you think about it. It’s kind of like standing outside a restaurant you used to enjoy, waving your ‘HEAD CHEF OUT’ placard, then going inside, and ordering a bottle of red with the best filet mignon on the menu.

Choosing not to show up to a ticket you’ve paid for when we’re about to lose football for 3 months is literally the most agressive form of dissent open to a fan. An empty seat is symbolic. In fact, one of the reasons the Premier League has such mega TV deals is the PASHUN the home fans have for the game. 93% capacity across the land. Quite remarkable. Italian football is more technical than ours, but they play to empty stands. Outside the major clubs in Spain, you don’t get full capacity week in week out. So when people say the club won’t pay attention, it’s a nonsense.

If you’re a brand like Adidas, and Ivan is asking you for £70m to sponsor the shirt after Puma… what are you going to say to screw that number down?

“Mate, you can’t even fill your ground every week and the atomsphere if f*cking toxic online. Why would I put my brand there?’

Do you think Chelsea struggled to fill the ground last night? No way. How many times do you think Spurs had 12.5% of their home fans missing this season (average number of fans missing in 2014 can you believe!)? How many times have Liverpool struggled to fill their ground this season? Not many… but we have Arsene as our overlord, and he offers up a boring product. However, he does try and sell it as something special. This is him yesterday on the Bayern game and his lack of progress this season.

“I think we suffered a lot when we went out of the Champions League under special circumstances. If you look at just the first halves, we would have qualified.

“Would 75 points be progress? I don’t want to go into conclusions too early but it shows that if we can make 75 points it is good because I won the championship with 78.

“You had basically two leagues, with the top six and everyone else.”

Worst thing is some fans will be nodding along to this sort of tripe. This is the manager of Arsenal FC, one of the most prestigious sporting clubs on the planet, and that’s how he’s framing going out of the Champions League 10-2. Also, ‘special circumstances’, no mate, exactly the same ones for 7 years running at the same point in the competition. The special circumstance is you’re the only manager in Europe who can’t be fired for being a bad coach.

So anyway, back to my point. Don’t go this evening. Make a point. The media now know about it. Arsene knows about it. Every empty red seat will make and impact and attack his power at the end of the month.

It’s your last chance to make an impact in an easy game.

In other news, absolute banter that Wenger swiped at teams “being on holiday” when he’s overseen 3 easy victories against teams taking it so easy, they were sneezing mojitos. Mourinho even came out and said of the last few games, “in this moment the Premier League is just matches we don’t want to play.”

Well, Pep G came out and had a pop back at the mind games clearly aimed at derailing his City and Klopp’s Liverpool.

“I never saw one player in my life go to the pitch and don’t try to win the game and when the target is done, it’s done, but so if you don’t want that, win more games yourself, or qualify before or win the champions league, and after we don’t have the problems for the other ones.”

He also made the point that I just made a few paragraphs up.

“Yeah, but he [Wenger] plays against Everton and Sunderland, no? Both teams are done, no? One is relegated and one is in the Europa League, so it’s the same situation, so you don’t want to complain, do it better during in the season and you will not have this problem.”

There isn’t much to talk about regarding the starting line up, Sanchez is nursing a kicked thigh. Outside that, I’d be surprised not to see a similar side to the Southampton one. It’s going to be drab, Sunderland are awful and finished, we have perked up now #Top4 is on, so we’ll probably win. Let’s just hope it’s in a fairly empty ground so the focus of the match report is disgruntled fans.

Final ask, we’re running a podcast this evening, we have a number you can call to tell us what you think should happen with Arsene Wenger moving forward.

+44 020 3868 6265

Leave your name, where you’re from, and what you’d like to see happen as we close out the season. BE NICE.

I was opposed to the Ozil signing when it occurred — I thought we needed a quality CF more than we needed a CAM — but knowing what we know today, would anyone here still sign Ozil for 43m? Genuinely curious.

Bamford
Not going to go into the game of “pick your fave quote” because I could represent about 10 different stances with regard to Arsenal. Wenger himself for instance has also stated on record he would pay whatever for a player if it was the right player. So let’s not

“The skeptic in me thinks in situations like Higuain from Madrid we proposed the 23mil transfer to the board, got the green light. Then when Napoli came in and the new tag was 30 it was rejected by the board as excessive. Because no matter what justification someone tries to concoct, the idea a top tier manager would happily miss out on players he clearly wants for money we supposedly have, is nonsense – irrrrspective of the distaste towards the guy.”

CC come on man. You talking as if the manager as rational…

This is wenger we’re talking about

Explain why we missed out on Alonso? (the manager was quoted in say that Alson would’ve killed the careers of Denilson & Diaby) Or why we didn’t bid for Kante but got Xhaka instead.

Do you remember that time we played Arshavin up front but Wenger refused to buy a striker because Bendtner was coming back from injury???

Why did we not buy a single outfield player last season?

Do you remember when we needed a striker to win the league to take the burden off Giroud, EVERYBODY KNEW THIS. And what does Wenger sign? BrokeBackKallstrom. Who does that??? Explain.

Are you suggesting that Wenger is sane and in his right mind compared to even that of a simpleton??

Forget foresight or insight… Wenger doesn’t even use hindsight. Common sense is merely wishful thinking with him.

I haven’t even listed the half of what that so-called ‘top manager’ has done over the years… and even that which is listed provides sufficient argument for your above comment.

Look mate I get where you’re coming from and I share those frustrations, believe me.

But you have to appreciate managers say things in public akin to sports psychologists, so you could easily see that as a vote of confidence for Denilson/diaby etc. However stupid.

All I’m saying is there’s no grounds for understanding why a manager would identify a player, and then not use the money available to get him. He’s talked of respecting the money we have and hat he’ll only spend what we have, so I genuinely feel that in most of these circumstances we have decided against the outlay.

Not discounting however that Wenger has misjudged some cases very badly re:alonso. The greater picture though, I just don’t but we have the money suggested available for transfers.

We bought Lucas for 17mil, why not Lacazette for 35mil if we had the money? We wanted the player. That transfer behaviour reeks of frugality and attention to spending

Thoughts on Pep coming out and saying “In my situation, at a big club, I’m sacked”? Seems like he understands the magnitude of not winning the title. Top 4 is not enough to gurantee safety in your job no matter how successful you have been previously.

How the hell has Wenger lasted this long, with minimal results?!?! Does he really have that much power to determine his own destiny? Is our board just that spineless and um? Or both?

Top of the league and need a striker to consolidate and that simpleton signs a man who can’t even play.

You know what, remembering that Kallstrom signing has spoilt my day.

CC.

I want you to explain that to me and then justify your “…the idea a top tier manager would happily miss out on players he clearly wants for money we supposedly have, is nonsense – irrrrspective of the distaste towards the guy.” comment

You’re right; it wouldn’t make sense for a manager to do that — unless he (i) disliked transfer spending, (ii) was offended by existing market valuations, and (iii) aimed to show the world that he could win without adopting its ways.

That is, it wouldn’t make sense — unless the manager were Arsene Wenger.

That’s fine if you believe that, I tend not to hence the impasse. Time will as always, tell.

For his faults that are clearly apparent, Wenger is not actively choosing to avoid signing players on principle. I don’t think any manager in the world operates this way. We simply have tighter purse strings than fans like to admit.

That coupled with a poor strategy has meant we’ve been fairly abject in the last few summers.

.”Do you think United will bring in both Grizmann and James this summer? It seems like the James deal is already done… :(”

Very possible isn’t it.

I think Griezmann will be there next season. When you see Griezmann give out to the press recently that David Becchham is his absolute idol then the writing looks to be on the wall on that one. Some were saying there could be doubts if Man United don’t win Europa League and qualify for CL next season but I think they will still get him regardless.

If you believe that to be the case, then justify the position of a manager who is sitting in 1st place – but it is widely acknowledged that he needs a striker to consolidate a league win, but signs a man with a broken back on lone, then comes out and confirms that he knew said play had a serious injury but still signed him (http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/26000458).

Are you really trying to suggest that its impossible and improbable that a man capable of such folly, could back track on paying a few extra millions, even though he had it, but won’t due to his principles??

I am not opposed to the owner spending his own money. Why would I be? I just don’t think it is absolutely necessary for him to do so for Arsenal to be a great team again, to be a team that contends regularly for titles and wins them every few years.

I think we can be that while spending only the money we earn as a club. And I think if you look at how Arsenal’s money has been used over the past 5-10 years you’ll see a club that could’ve done much, much, much better if it spent its money more intelligently and if it had a better manager.

Realistically?
Both Matuidi and Turan are available, both I feel are updates on what we have in their positions, both are experienced too. Mahrez is another feasible signing along with Kolasinac. None are huge signings but solid additions.

Would love to keep Sanchez (doubtful) and clear out a lot of the dross then bring 3 or 4 of the youth players into the set up.

Jim,
I think your model of proving the impact of money spent is flawed.
You posted good numbers on actual transfers which is well and good. What you failed to mention is the impact of money that was not spent.
There was a time when out cash balance was >225 million, surely that money ought to have been spent on footballing assets.
I agree with Bamford that money helps but the outcome is more complicated that that. There’s no direct relationship, There are other variable that come into play.
You posted United’s numbers without considering the impact of the best club manager of all time.

I think it’s disingenuous and cowardly to attack Kroenke for not dipping his hands into his pockets. He was very clear that this was not his style and was open with the concept of “self-sufficiency”.
The “self-sufficiency mantra” was widely celebrated by gooners in the 2005-2012 era and we used to mock Chelsea. Chelsea was widely derided as the club of the Russian with dirty money. This blog was replete with post after post attacking the integrity of Abramovich and Usmanov.
Wenger and Gazidis used the term “self-sufficiency” at every turn with the tacit approval of most gooners.

You can criticize Kroenke for many things but not spending his own money is off the table. He never promised to spend his money and was still accepted as anti-Abramovich at the time.

“There was a time when out cash balance was >225 million, surely that money ought to have been spent on footballing assets.”

Yeah I agree it should have, put once that is gone what is left? we can’t produce that money year in and year out. I agree that if we had spent that money (with a new manager) we could have won a league or two and bought some fantastic players.. but that money won’t always be there. We would have had a possible surge in success followed by a levelling out again when we returned to our regular spending patterns.

Just off hand do you have any idea what normal cash reserve numbers look like at other clubs? Having that much in cash reserve doesn’t seem normal at all.

I think Alexis is off to Bayern personally. Be impressed if we keep him, but not so sad if he’s off for a healthy fee.

Would like to see Mahrez and Lacazette. Was pretty damning of Lacazette last season and almost actively watched him this year to prove myself correct. Been impressed, I have to be honest. Stats are a bit bloated with penalties, but his movement and mentality are seriously top drawer. Hates losing, so would be a very welcome sight to watch a player scream his head off after missing. Certainly better than Giroud or Rambos stupid smiles.

Love mahrez, just love him. Total baller, absolutely a million miles better than any player we have when committing defenders (Alexis included). We seriously miss someone with those attributes.

Got to get a partner for Xhaka also (but I fear we won’t). Instead see us after that fornals chap which again is kind of. Using the glaringly obvious. Would love Bakayoko or an Nainggolan type in the heart of things.

Then a CB is essential if we’re continuing with 3 at the back. With Kos nursing his Achilles it does make you wonder.

think we must keep Alexis, even if it means letting him leave on a free next summer. a bit more relaxed about Ozil. incoming, I’d like someone to complement Xhaka in the middle, and a quality wide player. also, hopeful Holding & the Ox can build on a promising last 3/4mths.

“Yeah I agree it should have, put once that is gone what is left? we can’t produce that money year in and year out. I agree that if we had spent that money (with a new manager) we could have won a league or two and bought some fantastic players.. but that money won’t always be there. ”

If we had been more successful in the last 10 years our revenues would be much higher.

More prize money, more TV money, more commercial money.

Revenue follows success.

As has been pointed out, we couldve made a £40m profit on Higuain, a £35m profit on Suarez, a £25m profit on Kante in recent years.

Instead we absolutely burn money spending £33m on CHambers and Perez, one who is shit and the other who Wenger wont play.

Yeah I think Sanchez is of too, I wonder if that hefty fee be put back into the squad..

Yeah I have seen Lacazette play live and was impressed too, there is always the worry about transitioning from the French Leagues to the PL. How much would you think Lyon would be willing to take to part with him?

Another manager with this squad would win nothing.
Another manager spending 150 mil and getting rid of he dries. could win.
Wenger will win nothing regardless of spending because he buys crap mainly and doesn’t compose a team just a bunch of misfits.
We don’t even compete for a tile just aimlessly moving sideways

How long would it take Arsenal to get to the size of United, is it even possible at this point? And even if we do reach their level I doubt they will be standing static during that time. Looks like we will always be playing catch up.

As you say we had an opportunity to push on over the last decade, instead we stalled.

Our cash pile was just the tip of the iceberg of an organization that had just lost the war of ideas for the past decade.
We banked on a new stadium to take us to the next level——- Abramovich gate-crashes out party.
We put all our eggs on the financial fair play basket even though it was never going to stand the scrutiny of legal challenges. We didn’t envisage that Michel Platini’s corruption would undermine it. We hoarded money in the hope that when FFP kicked in we would be on equal footing—— We lost big time.
Chelsea’s approach to circumvent FFP was brilliant, they invested in footballing assets buying up all the best talent money could find and loaning them out. We hoarded out cash in a bank vault when the interest rate is less than the rate of inflation.
Even Brexit ht us hard because of the devaluation of the pound sterling.

We have been badly managed for the past decade. The only thing that has kept us going is the capacity of the London gooner population to pat premium fees for polished turd. When the local fans stop showing up the charade will stop.

Hold on, a player who had scored 100 in 192 wasn’t the stars he was now? Now you’re shuffling! We needed a goal scorer. Higuain fitted the bill. Wenger didn’t want to pay the price – irrespective if it went up by £7m.

Wallace

Nice try. Nice shuffle.

Wenger was armed with £70m in 2011. He came back with garbage. Are you now telling me that £70m back in 2011 is the £1000 that you referred too?

The Glazers didn’t buy United with their money. They used leveraged funds from three New York hedge funds: Citadel, Och-Ziff Capital Management and Perry Capital. that totaled 660 million.
They just capitalized the assets, repeatedly going back to the stock exchange to sell stocks. They extracted every bit of marketing money from the club.
They have taken money again and again. They even have united paying each of the Glazers 5 million pension each in perpetuity.
They have never put in a dime of theie money.
The Glazers were able to do that because they had the best club manager of all time in charge and he just kept winning, no matter what.

Jim,
I think the United story punctures your money theory. There are too many variables involved in winning. It’s not just money.
The story of Wenger would be different [without big money] had Eduardo not broken his leg in 2007.

” The idea Wenger wanted Higuain, but then didn’t want to pay the fee that WE COULD AFFORD doesn’t make sense to me.”
from someone not sensible enough to see the dementia of a flaying doddering old fool and Imbecile.

Mahrez has one hell of a purple season. Everything just clicked for him.
It’s like Ramsey would have had if his hamstrings had not given way.

Mahrez is not half the play Sanchez is.
His skill level is just above average- he flunked the AFCON as well compared to Alexis who shows up almost all the time.
His desire is substandard, he’s another Mesut Ozil. He will be wengerized in 6 months.

How… United have money a lot of it and they spend a lot, always have. Now they don’t have an owner that puts money into them but they are a financial power unrivaled, maybe Madrid are bigger? Without outside investment we are not competing with United.

Dissenter I understand there are many many factors that go into a winning team, but look across every major league and tournament and tell me the majority of the success doesn’t come from teams that invest heavily.

Agreed re Mahrez. And agreed re potency across the front line rather than one potent player. It’s movement, interchange and combination play that creates great attacks and teams, not great individuals.

What i would love to see is a player that plays off the shoulder of the last defender. I can’t remember the last time I saw a through-ball from the midfield being pounced upon by a fast mobile striker, runs clear from the defence, rounds the keeper and puts it in the net.

I agree with Jim,CC and Wallace that in football money is king and it’s not even a debate. Although I would say lack of ruthlessness and poor tactics are as big a handicap for Wenger as the lack of money. A ruthless Wenger (who wouldn’t put up with the likes of Ramsey,Theo and Gibbs for more than 2 seasons) and a slightly pragmatic Wenger (like employing back 3 as Ishola said) would be in a far better position to mount a title challenge.

Agree with Gambon on Griezzman. I think he would struggle in EPL and is anyway over-rated.

Yes. Look at the comments above. The only person who seems to agree with you — and I’ll ask him if he does — is Champagne. Everyone else who chimed in disagreed with you.

Champagne – Do you agree that we will “struggle at the fringes” unless the owner spends his own money or unless we outspend our rivals? Or can we compete and be a relevant force while operating within our operating budget?

Actually, I never resort to straw-men. You’re just afraid of your own argument. If we don’t need to outspend our rivals, then why can’t we compete under our current financial framework? After all, we spend a good deal, just not as much as our rivals.

Do explain.

What percentage of our rivals spend, exactly, do we need to reach? Why is this not possible under our current framework?

Instead of leaving Arsenal with a shred of dignity attached, Wenger is making this all about him as usual. By doing so, he is destroying the little goodwill he has left with the fans.

No doubt, when he falters next season, his excuse will be the fact that he didn’t have Champion’s League calibre players to recruit… says the man who brought in Park, Sanogo and Chamakh.

How can I be so sure he will falter?

He spent close to a £100m last summer and he is most likely finishing in his worst league position ever… what’s changed this year? He made the same mistakes, gave the same excuses and suffered the same humiliations this year as we have done for the past seven years at least…

This from a team he boasted in December was his best offensive unit ever. In fact he says similar things every year — that this or that team is his best.

Surely if his teams are so good, he should be challenging for the title? Yes? However they are not. So even on straight logic — his teams are getting better and better but he is finishing worse and worse. What does that tell you?

James Rodriguez to United doesn’t bother me one bit. He will struggle with the tenacity of the premier league just like Cuadrado struggled at Chelsea.
He will also struggle with Borinhio. He’s a party beast who will have all the night clubs in Manchester mapped out by December.
United are just throwing money around.

“4 years ago we went from bidding £25m for Higuain, to £40m for Suarez….only to sign a shot shy #10 who does regular disappearing acts.”

However, According to CC:

“Also, you think a board with as much focus on finances are going to be keen on granting an extra 7 million pounds days after a fee of 23 mil was agreed?”

So what I’d like to know is how a board of old men, are going to get butthurt cos of a hike in price. Sound more like Wenger being butthurt. After all, Higuain’s goal ratio was 100:192 at the time, while rotating with Benzema.

CC’s angle is that the board wouldn’t be prepared to grant an extra £7m for Hig but were prepared to Sanction £40m+£1m for Suarez, which infers that the board are the ones, that, if there’s anything they’re good at, it’s player valuation.

If I read it correctly, Jim’s point was without influx of serious money we wouldn’t compete for the title season in, season out like Chelsea, United and City do bar a few exceptions in between.

Of course we should have won at least 2 titles in last 10 years (last year, 2007-08 with Rosicky,Hleb,Flamini and Cesc) but his point is not about us winning the odd league titles here and there as is the case with Atletico, Dortmund etc. He is talking about us entering in to the league of Barca,Real,Bayern ,United and Chelsea who invariably win big trophies on a regular basis.

By the way I didn’t think anyone could enjoy watching Atletico, so thumbs up for finding some enjoyment in watching them. I find them utterly boring.

“f we don’t need to outspend our rivals, then why can’t we compete under our current financial framework?”

Bamford you do understand that spending more and outspending rivals is a different situation right? I never suggested we out spend I suggested that we have more funds to compete… Chelsea have spent more than us by £200m in the last 5 years, we don’t need to out spend them we need to close the gap.

“How does a man lose Cesc and Nasri in the same fucking month, but comes back with Ox, Benayoun, Santos, Per, Park, Jenkinson, Gervinho, Arteta? It’s only recently, having been found wanting, has he dropped money on Ozil and Sanchez.”

got 55m for his two best players and then went shopping mid-range. crazy, eh?

“If I read it correctly, Jim’s point was without influx of serious money we wouldn’t compete for the title season in, season out like Chelsea, United and City do bar a few exceptions in between.”

YES!! Finally!

Gambon has suggested that we do not need Kroneke’s investment if we are able to “max out our financial resources” to compete!

I personally don’t think that is possible in a reasonable time frame, therefore I would like Kroneke to invest his own money to close the gap between us and the teams that have been dominating over the last 10 years!!

And you know what?? Its not going to happen Bamford, Kroneke will never invest his money so chill!

I knew you were going to say that. What a twat. If the answer to that question, Jim, is ‘no,’ then you must concede the argument. If the answer to that question is ‘no,’ then sometimes the team who wins is the team who spent the 2nd most, or 3rd most, or 4th most. Which is to say, Arsenal can compete without equaling the spending of its rivals.

“He is talking about us entering in to the league of Barca,Real,Bayern ,United and Chelsea who invariably win big trophies on a regular basis.

Just spending money didn’t get Barca, Real, Bayern, United and [to some extent] Chelsea to the elite league.
It is the unbridled desire to win.
All these teams don’t tolerate mediocrity. Ask Ancelotti , he was sacked by Real and Chelsea after moderate success.
People forget that Chelsea’s success is NOT JUST ABOUT MONEY. The owner has ruthlessly pursued success and excellence over romantic loyalty or “values”.
We still denigrate Chelsea’s succes to just money. People forget that Abramovich poached Peter Kenyon [one the best football management minds] from the United to lay the bedrock of their success. It’s not just money they made the right bets and we repeatedly made the wrong ones.

worth remembering when we baulked at going from 22m to 30m+ for Higuain that our record transfer at the time was still Sylvain Wiltord. signed from Bordeaux in the summer of 2000 for 13m. 7-10m is biscuits these days, but back then it was still pretty serious money.

That Wenger has been peddling his ‘special circumstances’ alternative facts in the past few months illustrates what a total echo chamber it must be at Arsenal, where no one accepts responsibility and the entire club is happy to fall in behind a delusional narrative that makes them feel better.

Wenger waits a few weeks until the focus of events have moved on, then re-writes history to cast the club as being purely the victims of poor fortune. Several weeks after being bossed out of it at Stamford Bridge, Wenger started describing that defeat as down to ‘special circumstances,’ because Chelsea scored one of their goals following a goal kick that had previously been wrongly awarded as a corner. The guy that heads an organisation generating hundreds of millions in revenue is communicating to his club that abject failures like that are solely due to conspiracy against them rather than their own shortcomings that need to be confronted.

Same story with him now pushing the historic humiliation against Bayern as being due to ‘special circumstances,’ where he re-frames the conditions of a football match as two isolated halves of his choosing (and the first half in Munich we were dominated, despite being ‘hard to beat’). The team lost TEN – TWO, yet the internal club narrative pushed from the top is “on another day we would have won; we showed we are better than them.”

The sad state at Arsenal is that there is no one left who both cares and has the power to stand up to this. Stan has the power but is happy with a rising share price without having to play the sugardaddy game. Ivan MIGHT think the situation is ridiculous, but it’s clear at very most he only has equivalent power to Wenger. None of the old buffers on the board are motivated to make forceful recommendations.

So it will go on and on. We all know how Wenger’s excuses metastasize from one occasion when he allows himself to rely on an excuse that he would never have used as a crutch when he had higher standards, to slowly it informing his whole outlook.

The early Emirates years killed Wenger as a competitor. He learned to rationalise failure as something to be ignored and blamed on conspiracy, to satiate the pride of a man who had been used to winning. That crutch became a consuming addiction. He did an admirable job for several seasons after the stadium move, but in succumbing to the allure of the thin end of the wedge (the early excuses of handbrakes etc), his fierce competitiveness and high standards were forever destroyed and he became an excuse maker who was unwilling to accept his shortcomings and confront them. Over time, this has slowly crept into becoming the club culture: complacent, accepts capitulation when facing adversity, collapses when perceived to be recipient of bad fortune, preferring to ignore external realities (e.g changing transfer market) in favour of comfortable internal narrative etc.

We all know this is not going to change while Wenger remains. The club culture is still a hostage to the psychological effects of the necessary restraint of the early Emirates years. The only way to break out of this is for the manager to go, along with all his cronies, and to rebuild the club culture from scratch. There’s just not enough will to make this happen, so we will stumble on, trapped along with Wenger inside his compromised worldview, until the day it gets so bad that there’s no choice but to kick him out. It’s a long road ahead.

Gambon’s view is my view, so I’m not sure what your point is. He and I agree: we can compete without the owner dipping into his own money.

And you’re the one who told us that we would continue to “struggle around the fringes” unless the owner began spending his own money, so I’m not sure why you’re now pointing out that this is a moot point.

You’re an idiot, pure and simple, how you are allowed to teach anyone is beyond me!

It is the exact definition of a straw man argument!!

“an intentionally misrepresented proposition that is set up because it is easier to defeat than an opponent’s real argument.”

You know because I have been saying it all day that teams that spend the most win the most, all across Europe, its not always the case but in the vast majority it is, but you knew this is what I meant so you posed this question

“So the club that spends the most money always wins?”

I mean Bamford come on… this is exactly what a straw man argument is.. If I had been saying all day that every team that spends the most each season wins the league, then your question is a viable one. But… I haven’t.

“We could have got Mata and Hazard for 55m and if we did we wouldn’t be talking about Cesc and Nasri in 2017.”

obvious with hindsight that Wenger gambled on being able to convince them both to stay. thus the mad trolley dash at the end of the window. signing Mata or Hazard would have required serious groundwork being carried out months prior to any deal being concluded.

Arsenal can compete for title consistently if club spent money wisely. I am convinced that if Arsenal bought three proper world class players – striker and two central midfielders that compliment one another – we would compete for league each season.

ManCity and Chelsea spend way too much on players, they throwing money around unnecessarily, while Manure is being asset striped by their American owners but still spend large amount of money. Arsenal are largest club in London, London is largest city in Europe, and gooners are quite wealthy as they are paying highest ticket prices in world.

Arsenal should be top club in England, at least, if we had ambitious manager who used club’s resources wisely. And if Arsenal started to be attractive club to watch/support again, more money would come into club and they could spend even more.

I don’t disagree with you there but ruthlessness of those clubs is a corollary or a consequence of their owners pumping in big money. Would Stan have the gall to demand big trophies from Wenger when he invests fuck all really in to our squad (I’m not excusing Wenger for his failures, merely talking about a broader picture). Abrahmovic has every right to demand big trophies and beautiful football when he provides all the resources to his managers, the same goes with Real and Barca owners/Presidents.

Now you’re just flailing about. If the team who spends the most does not always win, then there is no reason why Arsenal — who are capable of spending a great deal, the 2nd most, the 3d most, etc. — cannot compete. Which was your claim.

And again, you cited gambon favorably, except that his view is in accord with mine.

And further, you’re the one who made a point that you are now telling us is moot.

As I said above, let’s just agree to disagree. I’ve made my point — Arsenal can be relevant without the owner dipping into his own pocket — and now you’re just devolving into empty ad hominems.

financially Utd are on another planet. from everyone. no other club could miss out on the champions league 5 seasons in a row and still be able to pony up 90m for a player. they could do it again this summer, as well. and next.

Juventus is arguably the biggest club in Italy now with the demise of Milan clubs. They have an added advantage of being the top attraction for any quality Italian player who wants to remain in Italy. This is why they don’t need to spend mega to lure big talents. Besides, they don’t have big money club as their rivals.

Bayern is in a similar position. Their team is full of German nationals who naturally want to play for Bayern. They don’t even need to outbid other clubs all the time to lure players away from other German clubs and even from clubs in other leagues.

Arsenal on the other hand have to compete with at least 3 other clubs if they were to sign a Rooney, Ferdinand or Sterling and outbid all of them. That’s why I don’t think comparing us to Juve is quite fair on spend argument.

TR7,
“I don’t disagree with you there but ruthlessness of those clubs is a corollary or a consequence of their owners pumping in big money. Would Stan have the gall to demand big trophies from Wenger when he invests fuck all really in to our squad”

Stan never promised to invest money in Arsenal. He was very clear about “self-sustainability” from the very beginning so you cant be knocking him for that now. Usmanov pitched the investing line and was shouted down by most gooners. At the time, the anti-Chelsea pitch was the flavor of the month. We used to deride Chelsea and then City for the character of the owners. We were proud to be self-sustaining. You cant have it both ways my friend.

Stan ought to have taken a more active interest. He should never have allowed Wenger to slowly turn the club into a French [sorry Karim 😉 ]socialistic experiment.
The mistakes we made was to hoard money when we ought to have started spending it on footballing assets. We also shifted the financial gains of the new stadium to excessively rewarding average players on potential to keep them rather than on performance.
We became scared and conservative exactly at the wrong moment. This was a time when we needed to courage to take big risk and not wait for FFP to kick in.

“got 55m for his two best players and then went shopping mid-range. crazy, eh?”

What we made from player sales was £66m – but let’s just round it to £70m for the sake of argument.

£70m on low-range > mid-range players was never going to take us to the “next level”? agreed??

My point was that your net spend argument is redundant as Wenger was armed with the best part of £70m in 2011, and as you said bought “mid-range”, therefore, what has other teams got to do with Wenger spending poorly?

Just cos my neighbour, in the £1.5m house eats Wagyu beef for dinner, doesn’t mean that, I , who lives in a £500k flat, has to eat fox shit for dinner, does it?

“worth remembering when we baulked at going from 22m to 30m+ for Higuain that our record transfer at the time was still Sylvain Wiltord. signed from Bordeaux in the summer of 2000 for 13m. 7-10m is biscuits these days, but back then it was still pretty serious money.”

So how much was Andrei Arshavin??

Well at least you’re honest in that Wenger was stupid as far back as 2011, if he was baulking at £30m players, knowing full well that his tried and tested method of buying unproven cheap players was never going to win him shit