I see the necessity of localizing the arguments on the board, out of a general sense of tension that I'm picking up between all the participants in this discussion.

These have been:

My person
Samurai36
nibs
ShemsiEnTehuti
Moorfius

On the other side, there has been:

Omowalejabali
MusicProducer

and, to a lesser extent, NTAIN.

I see alot of unresolved arguments spilling over into other threads, thus, I've facilitated an experiment in clarity.

We all know that Samurai and my person are members of the AAS. I don't know about nibs, but he seems along the lines of our teachings.

Moorfius is a student of the teachings of Master Naba, which is ideologically akin to our own, or at least, moreso than others on this board.

ShemsiEnTehuti has not furnished an affiliation, but in the historical sense, he seems to agree with the histories presented by Diop and co., which comprise a sort of orthodoxy on this board.

On the other hand, you have Music Producer, who has the following track record:

1. He mistook the Sahara for a forest, and giraffes for forest animals.

2. He made the Colchis, one of four regions of the Caucasus, to compass the whole of the Caucasus in Herodotus' description.

3. He mistook Upper for Lower Egypt and, when pressed on the point, proffered the unorthodox direction flow of the Hapi River as his proof (!).

4. He claimed that the Dogon were Semites.

5. He claimed that photos that any serious student of Afrocentricity recognizes from Diop, Finch, Van Sertima, Chandler, etc. were "photoshop fakes" in a time when Photoshop didn't exist, etc. etc.

And then you have omowalejabali, the cat who decried Ra Un Nefer Amen for being a Rosicrucian but has proudly displayed his several whiteman degrees at the bottom of his website.

His catalogue of blunders:

1. Claiming that the Egyptians referred to the Nubians as "Negroes," in any time period. Kamitians had no ethnic term for the dwellers below the first cataract, at any juncture in their national career.

2. Claiming that Aten was the primary deity in the time of Hatshepsut, for which he presented no evidence.

3. Claiming some discrepancy between the traditionary African pantheon, which has the equivalent of Ptah as the Supreme Being, and the pantheon preferred by Amen, which has the Seer preceding the Creator.

I summarily disproved this by demonstrating that, at least, one source of the African Diaspora, the Yoruba race, recognized the preeminence of Olodumare over the "Shaper", Orisa-Nla, so that the Yoruba route is undoubtedly "Amenistic" or whatever other neologism omowale prefers.

4. From the above, wrongly assuming that Ptah has some stronger relationship to the Sun than does Atum, and therefore assuming on the part of Akhenaten some monotheistic geneology in Kamit lost since the preference of Atum over Ptah.

5. In doing this, also ignoring that the theological capitol of Kamit was *not* Memphis, but that this was a strategic site commemorative of the SMA-TAUI, and ignoring that WASET engendered the Kamitic monarchical family, generally.

6. Touting references to the Bhagavad-Gita, which go at length to expound the priority of the "dehin", the *seer*, over the "prakriti," the observed or "All This," which is Ra Un Nefer Amen's purpose for edifying Amen in the main. By doing this, he proves that he's only seeking to give his particular spin on a metaphysical problem that Amen already solved before he (omowale) was done with college.

7. Referencing the majority of his ideas back to the Heliopolitan Recension, and intimating some duplicity on its part by its redactors, who were in fact, Anunnians, of the College of Annu, as if this has some bearing on the practice of a people who do *not* posit Ra at the head of the Kamitic pantheon.

8. Misappropriating a quote from Cheikh Anta Diop, by lofting one quote of his beyond its wider context, which was dismissive of the historicity of the Biblical account by all means. When reproached for this by one who knows better, he fumbled with a "from my perspective YOU'RE wrong though," simple and wrong response.

9. Claiming that the name of Sirius C is ANU, without disclosing *which* language this comes from.

And so on. My list for him is more extensive, because I've never collated his incorrect arguments as I've done for Music Producer.

Now, both of these cats seem terribly jealous of Ra Un Nefer Amen, claiming that he has some "white man agenda," but yet both would be pained to reveal exactly *which* parts of their teachings are original, and unexplored by a white man at some point.

Both, also, seem to have an obsessive attachment to the idea of Akhenaten, and a general disgust for the traditions of Kamit, which, quite apart from Akhenaten and a bunch of bull**** European speculations, attained to their greatest achievements WHILE in the historical period, and worshipping the God of their ancestors, NEB-ER-TCHER, in all Its' manifestations (Kheperaungkh-the ever becoming life).

Neither has an actual retinue. If they did, they would be focused on inculcating *them* with their obscure beliefs, instead of attacking the efficacy of Amen's teachings over an internet message board.

If either wishes to reprise their arguments in this thread, I will agree to certain terms of discussion.

If others besides my person would like to join in, it would be greatly appreciated. I know that the majority of the other posters on this board who dabble in antiquity might not be agreed on every historical point, but generally, our arguments have been shaped by an Afrocentric forebearance, so that we lose no time by becoming equivocal in certain, basic arguments of history.

What we can't tolerate is the following:

-Making an Ad Hominem attack, and then running away quickly, as if possessed by some fear of the shackles of "samsara" (yes, Omowale, that was directed towards you). If you fear you will compromise your karman by simply providing a follow-up argument to an assertion, then you don't really need to be answering my questions, or even interacting with people, generally. Attainment to moksha should not compromise one's abilities to reason in peace.

-Answering one question and then, when pressed on an issue that you know you can't wiggle out of, copying and pasting an older post, or saying that "because of such and such..." and pasting a hyperlink, "...I will no longer discuss this with you."

I don't mean to insult anyone's sensibilities here, but in common talk we call this a b*** move. Either defend your argument, or acquiesce.

-Responding to anything with "your source is a white man, I can't trust that." There are African people with decidedly white viewpoints, and whites whose soundness of logic places them before Blacks with whom we might disagree, such as Volney, Massey, Churchward, etc. I trust the rationality of these men over Creflo Dollar or a TD Jakes, or, for that matter, a Rudolph Windsor.

If you're going to attack white people, attack them for the individual discrepancies in their respective viewpoints, not the blanket idiocy that a white man is wrong and racist except for when he accepts your viewpoint.

The divine ancestors are respected and honored by some and ignored by others. The history of our people is understood by some and mis-understood by others. Those who know are in the process of understanding why it is and has always been the ancient tridition...that only those who are ready will bring "Themself" to the house of divine "Initiation". Ware all of the mysteries are kept in the house of initiation...it is only the " Pure Mind and Hart" that will open the door or close itself out.
We have been spoiled, ruined into thinking that what we think we have mis-learned from the west is what all we need to judge and discover our Absolute loss of "Right-Knowledge" and "Right-Mind"...that will allow us to Grow ourselves "Spiritualy"...then there are those who could care less about their own sanity and Spirituality let alone others..."Hence"...reckless "Words" of deception at any coast to prop up the "Ego"..."False Pride" and "The Lust for personal Recognition" of others who they care nothing about what ever. It is becoming increasingly more and more clear that this is not the proper place for "Initiation". Through out the hundreds of thousands of years...it has always been the temple that is aproched for admision and not the "Teachers" going to the student. For now we can see what the out come is...as in the myths of teachers going to un-willing students...they were all "Killed" by those who would never be "Ready". No one has to tell anything to a person who does not ask the question...for when the answer is given to someone who did not ask...there is always "Recentment", "Scorn", "Anger" etc.
It is the duty of each and every one of us to "Choose" what ever "Path" we "Like". As it is said by the devine ancestors: "Leave those to their Folly who loves their Folly". Who are "We" to change what is..."Human-Nature"? We are not in the "False" business of "Saving-Souls"...but only to "Appear to those who are Ready". We all must Save Our Own Selves by the Choices we Choose to Make for our Selves...it is only up to (you) "Us"...as it is also up to us to remain Slaves to others or "Liberate" our selves from all others for eternity!.........People Know Thy Self.

Ase`

"May the Spirits of the Ancestors Continue to Bless "Us" with the Light of (overstanding) Understanding"*

I see the necessity of localizing the arguments on the board, out of a general sense of tension that I'm picking up between all the participants in this discussion.

These have been:

My person
Samurai36
nibs
ShemsiEnTehuti
Moorfius

On the other side, there has been:

Omowalejabali
MusicProducer

and, to a lesser extent, NTAIN.

I see alot of unresolved arguments spilling over into other threads, thus, I've facilitated an experiment in clarity.

We all know that Samurai and my person are members of the AAS. I don't know about nibs, but he seems along the lines of our teachings.

Moorfius is a student of the teachings of Master Naba, which is ideologically akin to our own, or at least, moreso than others on this board.

ShemsiEnTehuti has not furnished an affiliation, but in the historical sense, he seems to agree with the histories presented by Diop and co., which comprise a sort of orthodoxy on this board.

On the other hand, you have Music Producer, who has the following track record:

1. He mistook the Sahara for a forest, and giraffes for forest animals.

2. He made the Colchis, one of four regions of the Caucasus, to compass the whole of the Caucasus in Herodotus' description.

3. He mistook Upper for Lower Egypt and, when pressed on the point, proffered the unorthodox direction flow of the Hapi River as his proof (!).

4. He claimed that the Dogon were Semites.

5. He claimed that photos that any serious student of Afrocentricity recognizes from Diop, Finch, Van Sertima, Chandler, etc. were "photoshop fakes" in a time when Photoshop didn't exist, etc. etc.

And then you have omowalejabali, the cat who decried Ra Un Nefer Amen for being a Rosicrucian but has proudly displayed his several whiteman degrees at the bottom of his website.

His catalogue of blunders:

1. Claiming that the Egyptians referred to the Nubians as "Negroes," in any time period. Kamitians had no ethnic term for the dwellers below the first cataract, at any juncture in their national career.

2. Claiming that Aten was the primary deity in the time of Hatshepsut, for which he presented no evidence.

3. Claiming some discrepancy between the traditionary African pantheon, which has the equivalent of Ptah as the Supreme Being, and the pantheon preferred by Amen, which has the Seer preceding the Creator.

I summarily disproved this by demonstrating that, at least, one source of the African Diaspora, the Yoruba race, recognized the preeminence of Olodumare over the "Shaper", Orisa-Nla, so that the Yoruba route is undoubtedly "Amenistic" or whatever other neologism omowale prefers.

4. From the above, wrongly assuming that Ptah has some stronger relationship to the Sun than does Atum, and therefore assuming on the part of Akhenaten some monotheistic geneology in Kamit lost since the preference of Atum over Ptah.

5. In doing this, also ignoring that the theological capitol of Kamit was *not* Memphis, but that this was a strategic site commemorative of the SMA-TAUI, and ignoring that WASET engendered the Kamitic monarchical family, generally.

6. Touting references to the Bhagavad-Gita, which go at length to expound the priority of the "dehin", the *seer*, over the "prakriti," the observed or "All This," which is Ra Un Nefer Amen's purpose for edifying Amen in the main. By doing this, he proves that he's only seeking to give his particular spin on a metaphysical problem that Amen already solved before he (omowale) was done with college.

7. Referencing the majority of his ideas back to the Heliopolitan Recension, and intimating some duplicity on its part by its redactors, who were in fact, Anunnians, of the College of Annu, as if this has some bearing on the practice of a people who do *not* posit Ra at the head of the Kamitic pantheon.

8. Misappropriating a quote from Cheikh Anta Diop, by lofting one quote of his beyond its wider context, which was dismissive of the historicity of the Biblical account by all means. When reproached for this by one who knows better, he fumbled with a "from my perspective YOU'RE wrong though," simple and wrong response.

9. Claiming that the name of Sirius C is ANU, without disclosing *which* language this comes from.

And so on. My list for him is more extensive, because I've never collated his incorrect arguments as I've done for Music Producer.

Now, both of these cats seem terribly jealous of Ra Un Nefer Amen, claiming that he has some "white man agenda," but yet both would be pained to reveal exactly *which* parts of their teachings are original, and unexplored by a white man at some point.

Both, also, seem to have an obsessive attachment to the idea of Akhenaten, and a general disgust for the traditions of Kamit, which, quite apart from Akhenaten and a bunch of bull**** European speculations, attained to their greatest achievements WHILE in the historical period, and worshipping the God of their ancestors, NEB-ER-TCHER, in all Its' manifestations (Kheperaungkh-the ever becoming life).

Neither has an actual retinue. If they did, they would be focused on inculcating *them* with their obscure beliefs, instead of attacking the efficacy of Amen's teachings over an internet message board.

If either wishes to reprise their arguments in this thread, I will agree to certain terms of discussion.

If others besides my person would like to join in, it would be greatly appreciated. I know that the majority of the other posters on this board who dabble in antiquity might not be agreed on every historical point, but generally, our arguments have been shaped by an Afrocentric forebearance, so that we lose no time by becoming equivocal in certain, basic arguments of history.

What we can't tolerate is the following:

-Making an Ad Hominem attack, and then running away quickly, as if possessed by some fear of the shackles of "samsara" (yes, Omowale, that was directed towards you). If you fear you will compromise your karman by simply providing a follow-up argument to an assertion, then you don't really need to be answering my questions, or even interacting with people, generally. Attainment to moksha should not compromise one's abilities to reason in peace.

-Answering one question and then, when pressed on an issue that you know you can't wiggle out of, copying and pasting an older post, or saying that "because of such and such..." and pasting a hyperlink, "...I will no longer discuss this with you."

I don't mean to insult anyone's sensibilities here, but in common talk we call this a b*** move. Either defend your argument, or acquiesce.

-Responding to anything with "your source is a white man, I can't trust that." There are African people with decidedly white viewpoints, and whites whose soundness of logic places them before Blacks with whom we might disagree, such as Volney, Massey, Churchward, etc. I trust the rationality of these men over Creflo Dollar or a TD Jakes, or, for that matter, a Rudolph Windsor.

If you're going to attack white people, attack them for the individual discrepancies in their respective viewpoints, not the blanket idiocy that a white man is wrong and racist except for when he accepts your viewpoint.

Can we agree on these terms?

Hetep.

Click to expand...

I shall respond to this post as I have done others and simply place you on my ignore list.

Since I have posted in these forums I have used quite extensively references from Diop, J.A. Rogers, Dr. Ben Jochanin, Ivan Van Sertima, Elijah Muhammad and other BLACK AFRICAN historians.

The ONLY TWO white I have quoted, which has been done sparingly, are the SAME TWO that both Diop and Dr. Ben have quoted---Budge and Massey.With a recent reference to Gardner and Temple both of whom I have questioned their credability.

I would like to to stae openly WHICH THREAD HAVE YOU CREATED in which I have done what is alledged as above.

Any criticism I have of Ra Un Nefer Amen concerns what I believe to be a FALSE TEACHING concerning the Pharaoh Akhenaten, and a distortion as presented by "initiates" concerning 1) The identity of Nefertiti and Queen Tiye, which at least one person has labeled as "possibly Eurasion" and 2) Attempts to discredit the DOGON cosmological system in reference to the "Nommo" and "Sirius c'.

You come into forums/threads I created and call into question not only my credability AND my mental state when I have REPEATEDLY QUOTED EXACTLY what has been written by Diop, et. al.

I can take your nine points and deconstruct each and as for EXACT QUOTES from me to substantiate your libel and slander but it's not worth my effort.

But let's start with number 1. WHERE exactly did I speak of "Egyptians" referring to Nubians as Negroes?

Before attempting to answer perhaps you should read over Diop's Origin of African Civilization because "Negro" is the term DIOP USES QUITE EXTENSIVELY!

Besides, when have I stated "your source is a white man, I can't trust that" KNOWING I have been criticized here for doing exactly that...using Budge and Massey as references!

What white people am "I" attacking??

Dude...this is str8...

Building A Global e-Networking Community Focusing on Black Genealogy/Family History and the Cultural/Spiritual Traditions of African people worldwide. EWOSA Village @facebook.com. Follow my blog at http://blkrootsworker.blogspot.com/?m=1

you basically call me out then claim this is a thread to settle animosity??

you continue propaganting your CULT and I will continue exposing your lies and hypocrisy!

Building A Global e-Networking Community Focusing on Black Genealogy/Family History and the Cultural/Spiritual Traditions of African people worldwide. EWOSA Village @facebook.com. Follow my blog at http://blkrootsworker.blogspot.com/?m=1

The divine ancestors are respected and honored by some and ignored by others. The history of our people is understood by some and mis-understood by others. Those who know are in the process of understanding why it is and has always been the ancient tridition...that only those who are ready will bring "Themself" to the house of divine "Initiation". Ware all of the mysteries are kept in the house of initiation...it is only the " Pure Mind and Hart" that will open the door or close itself out.
We have been spoiled, ruined into thinking that what we think we have mis-learned from the west is what all we need to judge and discover our Absolute loss of "Right-Knowledge" and "Right-Mind"...that will allow us to Grow ourselves "Spiritualy"...then there are those who could care less about their own sanity and Spirituality let alone others..."Hence"...reckless "Words" of deception at any coast to prop up the "Ego"..."False Pride" and "The Lust for personal Recognition" of others who they care nothing about what ever. It is becoming increasingly more and more clear that this is not the proper place for "Initiation". Through out the hundreds of thousands of years...it has always been the temple that is aproched for admision and not the "Teachers" going to the student. For now we can see what the out come is...as in the myths of teachers going to un-willing students...they were all "Killed" by those who would never be "Ready". No one has to tell anything to a person who does not ask the question...for when the answer is given to someone who did not ask...there is always "Recentment", "Scorn", "Anger" etc.
It is the duty of each and every one of us to "Choose" what ever "Path" we "Like". As it is said by the devine ancestors: "Leave those to their Folly who loves their Folly". Who are "We" to change what is..."Human-Nature"? We are not in the "False" business of "Saving-Souls"...but only to "Appear to those who are Ready". We all must Save Our Own Selves by the Choices we Choose to Make for our Selves...it is only up to (you) "Us"...as it is also up to us to remain Slaves to others or "Liberate" our selves from all others for eternity!.........People Know Thy Self.

Ase`

"May the Spirits of the Ancestors Continue to Bless "Us" with the Light of (overstanding) Understanding"*

Click to expand...

And from this point on I shall not address you or any Like you and shall do the same and

"LEAVE YOU TO YOUR FOLLY!"

Building A Global e-Networking Community Focusing on Black Genealogy/Family History and the Cultural/Spiritual Traditions of African people worldwide. EWOSA Village @facebook.com. Follow my blog at http://blkrootsworker.blogspot.com/?m=1

The divine ancestors are respected and honored by some and ignored by others. The history of our people is understood by some and mis-understood by others. Those who know are in the process of understanding why it is and has always been the ancient tridition...that only those who are ready will bring "Themself" to the house of divine "Initiation". Ware all of the mysteries are kept in the house of initiation...it is only the " Pure Mind and Hart" that will open the door or close itself out.
We have been spoiled, ruined into thinking that what we think we have mis-learned from the west is what all we need to judge and discover our Absolute loss of "Right-Knowledge" and "Right-Mind"...that will allow us to Grow ourselves "Spiritualy"...then there are those who could care less about their own sanity and Spirituality let alone others..."Hence"...reckless "Words" of deception at any coast to prop up the "Ego"..."False Pride" and "The Lust for personal Recognition" of others who they care nothing about what ever. It is becoming increasingly more and more clear that this is not the proper place for "Initiation". Through out the hundreds of thousands of years...it has always been the temple that is aproched for admision and not the "Teachers" going to the student. For now we can see what the out come is...as in the myths of teachers going to un-willing students...they were all "Killed" by those who would never be "Ready". No one has to tell anything to a person who does not ask the question...for when the answer is given to someone who did not ask...there is always "Recentment", "Scorn", "Anger" etc.
It is the duty of each and every one of us to "Choose" what ever "Path" we "Like". As it is said by the devine ancestors: "Leave those to their Folly who loves their Folly". Who are "We" to change what is..."Human-Nature"? We are not in the "False" business of "Saving-Souls"...but only to "Appear to those who are Ready". We all must Save Our Own Selves by the Choices we Choose to Make for our Selves...it is only up to (you) "Us"...as it is also up to us to remain Slaves to others or "Liberate" our selves from all others for eternity!.........People Know Thy Self.

Ase`

"May the Spirits of the Ancestors Continue to Bless "Us" with the Light of (overstanding) Understanding"*

Click to expand...

I had to humble myself to this relality some time ago. The bottom line is that none of us fully understand anything at this time and to quote marcus garvey whom stated god is the universal intelligence in that in intelligence is all things. man being only a particle of that universal intelligence can never attempt to fully overstand or comprehend the universal intelligence. chief elder osiris has made this apparent as well! We are in the company of some whom know a little (like ourselves) and must continue this historical movement of bringing back the order together.

(ANUK_AUSAR) - in the historical sense, he seems to agree with the histories presented by Diop and co., which comprise a sort of orthodoxy on this board.

part of this disagreement is, imho, rooted in cheikh anta diop's attempts to understand kemetian spirituality from the perspective of orthodox islam and the abrahamic faiths.
it is diop, who while acknowledging that the practice of ancestor communication started in kush, claims that the religion of kush was monotheistic and pure. that somehow in kemet it degrades into polytheism that is not understood.
diop also points out that much of arabia had been colonized by kush and that muhammad and islam is in some way a restoration of the original "monotheistic" practices of the pure original kush/nubian religion. i'm not going to challenge the notion that muhammad was black; but i challenge whether or not his ties to kush make his doctrine the true interpretation.

so for all the good work that diop has done, it's largely his theories that attempt to link the religions of kush and kemet with abrahamic theism that allows the music producer and omowalejabali to think their arguments have some traction.
music producer is looking for any scraps of evidence to undermine reverencing the paut neteru in favor of his mystery god doctrine.

omowalejabali: didn't the noble drew ali completely ignore the arabic qu'ran with his teachings of islam? the arabic qu'ran contradicts much of his teachings, and the honorable elijah muhammad has to jump through hoops and several contortions to find truth in that document. reading the qu'ran literally does not say what elijah muhammad teaches.
imho too much work has been invested in trying to create a deeper spiritual message in the arabic qu'ran where it does not actually exist.