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Muslim protesters torch Buddhist temples

Is Islamphobia irrational or founded in some rationality? What can Muslims do to so the West and the World perceived them as religion of peace? Or religion of peace is nothing more than a myth? Anything related of the image of muslim around the world.

I live in the USA at the moment. I tend to be more progressive liberal on the political scale. But I hate how much effort the liberal of this country trying to stand up for the Muslim Americans. I know Muslim Americans have nothing to do with world protest (well at least some). But this portion of the population do not share the same principle as the Democrats do. They are very similar to the Republicans to some extend over religious principle (as oppose to liberal secularist). They don't want acceptance or tolerance in the Democrat party, they want a place in the republican party. My view on the Islam culture is tend to be on the negative side. My philosophy is that if I can't stand the American conservatives (who are moderate compare to the muslim conservative) then heck I can't stand muslims conservative. As for muslims moderate, all they care about is their own skins. Their silence is defending over extremist protest, but when they open their mouth, it would be about how people are too Islamphobia, etc.

Re: Muslim protesters torch Buddhist temples

I don't know. I haven't really ever heard anyone defend actions by anyone (especially radical Muslims) who commits acts such as this against any group.

I personally don't subscribe to any religion, but Islam, itself, is most definitely not the root cause of these violent actions by some Muslims that have taken the news by storm in the last couple of decades. Manipulation and politics are what causes it every single time when examined. Millions of Muslims practice their religion in peace all over the world every day. It's unfortunate that the Middle East is probably the most lawless and violent region on the globe and it is populated by more Muslims than any other group but that does not reflect badly of Islam and Muslims as a whole, just the people who commit the violent acts.

Re: Muslim protesters torch Buddhist temples

I know Muslim Americans have nothing to do with world protest (well at least some).

Not some. Most. Just like most Christians have nothing to do with the methodical murder of an abortion doctor.

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But this portion of the population do not share the same principle as the Democrats do.

Who does? Define "this portion of the population". Define "the same principles" of the Democrats.

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My philosophy is that if I can't stand the American conservatives (who are moderate compare to the muslim conservative) then heck I can't stand muslims conservative. As for muslims moderate, all they care about is their own skins. Their silence is defending over extremist protest, but when they open their mouth, it would be about how people are too Islamphobia, etc.

And how about our country, hm? Frankly, you're right in pointing this out but wrong in narrowing it down to Islam. It's just the usual human condition. Silence is from fear. Fear of the people is often legitimized by an active "enemy" and a desire for retribution.

Wouldn't you be afraid, if the cost of speaking out meant you would be torn down? Whether a gruesome death, destitution, or person devastation, it's all terrifying and it shouldn't be that way.

Re: Muslim protesters torch Buddhist temples

I don't know. I haven't really ever heard anyone defend actions by anyone (especially radical Muslims) who commits acts such as this against any group.

On youtube, on yahoo, on tumblr, I see regular Muslim people justified the protest.

Originally Posted by earthforge

Not some. Most. Just like most Christians have nothing to do with the methodical murder of an abortion doctor.

To expand my last statement, most Muslims disagree with the film. Heck perhaps, close to all are angry with that film. Is that anger justified? Perhaps. People do things differently. Some are peaceful protests. Some do not protest but take it on the internet. Some call out boycott over youtube for not taking it out. But regardless, each contribute to the protest. The tension is there. By that I meant the silence over the physical act, some resort to somehow belittle the damage. Every time, I heard a moderate Muslim retort to well Christians back in the Middle Ages. Or Americans in the Middle East. Or whatever. I am against the wars. In fact, if protests against the war led to these horrific acts. I could meet these justifications half way. But no, the more and more comments I read about how offended these people are because "Americans don't know how to shut their mouth." The more I am piss off. Many individuals' first reactions over the burning of the Buddhist temples wasn't well I think that wrong. But instead accused me of well did you know that Buddhist was hateful in the first place. Who? That one dude who posted a facebook post that was anti Muslim? Whatever you say, a Muslim (or whatever) do feel associate with the general group. Sometimes, they feel an attack on one group is somehow an attack on them. And they out to defend themselves. They are out to see the wrong in others before such an admission of the wrong in themselves. Maybe some already had such admission but they had yet to show it. However, I do need to point out that afterward, a count Libyan protest is exactly the sort of reaction I wanted. If there are more of those protest, I think the gap of the misunderstand between the East and West would be lessen.

As for your abortion comments, if everyday, you turn on to Fox News, and you see how they demonize those doctors. If you still hear how abortion is link to the killing of babies. If about a half (less or more) of Americans feel that abortion is wrong. Hence create this environment that these doctor killer exist. Are they responsible for it? No, but in a huge population, there ought to be one or two or even three crazy out there who would take the message to the extreme.

However the two cases are different, in both the environment for hostility exist. One is perhaps more likely than the other. In the initial comment that you quote, I didn't talk about the "violent," I talk about the protest. In this case the sentiment that they are being insulted at. And most likely, almost all are responsible for it. However, in saying this, I will acknowledge it is hard not to. And that this sentiment is rather a mixed of emotions of variety of things from the wars and everyday prejudices. *I know I am not really being clear*

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Who does? Define "this portion of the population". Define "the same principles" of the Democrats.

Isn't this obvious, most Muslims Americans. Muslims Americans tend to support Republican Party. Since Bush presidency, they are shy away from the Republican Party due to their pro war stance. But if you talk about conservative value, most Muslims agree with the conservatives of this country over gay marriage, abortion, etc.

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Wouldn't you be afraid, if the cost of speaking out meant you would be torn down? Whether a gruesome death, destitution, or person devastation, it's all terrifying and it shouldn't be that way.

In the USA??? In a so call "countries" with religion of peace? Surrounded by people with such peaceful religion? Around people who accepted freedom of speech??? Are you implying that Muslims are terrify of Muslims?

Re: Muslim protesters torch Buddhist temples

Also, did you know that these crazy fundamentalists in the link you posted are also burning Islam holy sites? When it comes down to it, the fundies are just trying to do their best to destroy history so they can have total control. Never changes.

Originally Posted by weixiaobao

On youtube, on yahoo, on tumblr, I see regular Muslim people justified the protest.

On every news site I see crazies condemning the passage of a bill preventing dual tracking (the process of a bank continuing to foreclose even if the defendants have entered negotiations for a loan mod), saying things like "I always pay my mortgage" or "these people are entitled" or "these people chose to buy tons of houses, they deserve it".

It's a little thing called victim-blaming, and it's universal.

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To expand my last statement, most Muslims disagree with the film. Heck perhaps, close to all are angry with that film. Is that anger justified?

Yup, though the movie's a turd with popularity.

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I am against the wars. In fact, if protests against the war led to these horrific acts. I could meet these justifications half way. But no, the more and more comments I read about how offended these people are because "Americans don't know how to shut their mouth." The more I am piss off.

What? Okay, it sounds like you're more upset over being personally offended by a quote than the fact that people have died. Honestly, I think I'm just hearing an overreaction over some internet comments. You're taking that comment way to seriously.

Look at the situation in such countries. Fundamentalists have a lot of political power. It's just fundamentalists in control, carrying on cranky. Note that fundies is my term to generalize over all groups that proselytize agendas. A lot of American attitudes are fundie - believing in the purity of the American dream, owed personal responsibility, etc.

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Many individuals' first reactions over the burning of the Buddhist temples wasn't well I think that wrong. But instead accused me of well did you know that Buddhist was hateful in the first place.

Again, they're fundies.

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Whatever you say, a Muslim (or whatever) do feel associate with the general group. Sometimes, they feel an attack on one group is somehow an attack on them. And they out to defend themselves.

I see you doing that as an American right now. And as a fellow American, I must ask you to step back and look at the big picture.

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As for your abortion comments, if everyday, you turn on to Fox News, and you see how they demonize those doctors.

Fox News is a group of money-making simpering fools. The population that gives them credence is tiny and dying out. Case example: my step-grandma. She smoked herself to hell.

But even crazy Fox doesn't create the environment for mass murderers. Those are often people with preexisting and untreated mental instability. They could react to anything, from politics to a break-up. These people wouldn't be cured by muzzling Fox (though I'd like to do that for other reasons.) They can only be dealt with by a decent medical system that can recognize and treat it.

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Isn't this obvious, most Muslims Americans. Muslims Americans tend to support Republican Party. Since Bush presidency, they are shy away from the Republican Party due to their pro war stance. But if you talk about conservative value, most Muslims agree with the conservatives of this country over gay marriage, abortion, etc.

Statistic, please. American Muslims are like any group of people - diverse. There are some conservative and some liberal ones.

But we're also in America, where everyone is a fiscal conservative about anything outside of their interests.

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In the USA??? In a so call "countries" with religion of peace? Surrounded by people with such peaceful religion? Around people who accepted freedom of speech??? Are you implying that Muslims are terrify of Muslims?

No, I am implying people are afraid of people for a very good reason. The oppression against various peoples that exists in some Muslim societies like Iran also exists here in the US. Fear is less due to a religion and more due to the fundies making everyone subservient to their will. The fundies in America believe no one who has had a run of bad luck for 20 years can get into the workforce because "they must be cursed to be out of the employment for 20 years", "nobody else employs this person", etc.

Re: Muslim protesters torch Buddhist temples

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It's a little thing called victim-blaming, and it's universal.

If we have problem, when a person blame a rape victim for the rape, we would go off on them so why does we should act different in this case. So everytime some one open their mouth, they got shut up either by "you are being too Islamphobic" or in your case "it's universal." We don't talk about general here. If this topic about the economy, then I would target a different group of people. I am a man of no religion. But I hate the whole excuse since the Christian with the crusaders, and so blah blah. It universal, "fuck all religions." I even especially hate people who lum passive religions with the Western monotheist ones. Yes, why not just says thing in general. And be okay with the general situation. There is nothing to be angry about, it's universal.

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What? Okay, it sounds like you're more upset over being personally offended by a quote than the fact that people have died. Honestly, I think I'm just hearing an overreaction over some internet comments. You're taking that comment way to seriously.

You are absolutely wrong. I am against the wars. I really really want to stood side by side with the Muslim Americans and Muslims in the world in general to condemn the new modern Imperialism that the west is practicing. So I am angry, that there are damn protest and violent over petty little things that would hurt the cause of real issues. If there is a protest against wars, the main population would just think that the muslims are being too sensitive and too whiny.

You take my comments way off. If indeed lives are lost as an unfortunate result for a real cause, then somethings can be forgiving. The police could have fire into the crowd, and the crowd could have fire back, and some unfortunate victims would have die. But I would stand behind the protestors over unfortunate incidents like that.

Even if, let's assume you are right about me, in which I already explain that you are wrong. So because of my assume personality, you would dismissed the central point that I brought up. Nup, the same attitude, relax people, nothing to see here.

You keep bringing fundie up. Since you are very particular about defining. You should define it.

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I see you doing that as an American right now. And as a fellow American, I must ask you to step back and look at the big picture.

I am an immigrant first and foremost. I'm still an outsider from the Americans' perspective. And the quote that you are quoting. It about general. If replace, muslims with Italians, people's nature should be the same. And if these Italians react the way they did, I would condemn also.

I guess what you meant by fundies. So any people talk like that, any people who have some passion regarding this issues. Any people feel offended by the movie, are you going to keep hiding behind this fundies? Civil people can act like savages in baseball games, soccer games etc. An angry normal person to become a fundy. The barrier would be very thin. But if within that community, they took strong stances against it. (Not say that they haven't but their voice should be more loud). Then people should be more aware. There are consequences for this. I meant you can disrerad all the things I said. But the fact is that within the USA for example, Muslims in general is view as unfavorably. You may dismissed all of that. But that wouldn't change anything. You can't just wait until these so call people who have unfavorable opinions to change their mind or accept "its' universal." People are not saint and all knowing and altruistic.

Based on wiki, it said Muslims Americans are tend to support the Republicans, in fact they voted mostly for Bush until the wars.
If you want general then this would be general, Asians are mainly for democrats, however, in particular, the Vietnamese especially those that survive the war and came here have strong hatred for communism and vote Republicans. Is it true for all cases, no. But that is true enough to be accepted.

Based on your reply, you accepted that there is flaw within the Muslim community. Why do you think that the Muslim community in particular (and don't pander the discussion to other ethnic group or religions) that the fundy thrive here? I look at one graph, latinos outweight the Muslims in term of terrorism act due to all the drug cartel. But that is a whole different species.

etc, I don't think you are denying that certain social issues, Muslims Americans will not accept. At least for this current time. You are just being difficult as far as I see it.
Just google around

Let's talk about my personal experience, because I am a flaw person and subject to what I experienced.
On campus, Muslims student held events to clear up misunderstanding about their community. Hence, you can see they try to seek acceptance.
But you ask them about how they view gay people, they all stutter up. Is it fair to project this to the entire community.
Maybe not, but my common sense, dictate me to follow a certain thinking until proven other wise. And you in particular hasn't provide me any reason to think other wise.

Re: Muslim protesters torch Buddhist temples

Without being disrespectful, it feels like I'm on 4chan now
In their boards that is for politics, each time something so-called muslims do, you bring it up and say " Look, muslims are violent and this and that ", while again, if you check the history of the Prophet and 4 Righetous Caliphs, you'll see that there's no such a thing as a violence... During the era of Umar Ibn Al Khattab for example, where the Islamic empire expanded to Persia and Syria and Egypt, none of the Jews/Christians or any non muslims were harmed and none were forced to become muslims, and not any of their temples were destroyed, all they hate to pay was the Jizia which is a tax that is less than the Zakat (Because the only taxation back then was the Zakat for the muslims, it would be infair if others wouldn't pay a tax either), and Muslims have these duties : To protect them, to let them pratice their religion, to not take their moneys, lands or any propreties, and if they are unable to protect them for enemies, Muslims wouldn't take anything from them at all.

And here's a funny anecdote : Umar when he came to Jerusalem, after they surrendered, Sophornius the patriach of Jerusalem offered to Umar to pray inside the Church of the Holy Sepulchre, but he refused saying that it might endanger the church's status as a temple for Christians and that Muslims may break the treaty and turn it into a mosque if he did pray there, as Muslims may take it as a reason to do it, and he refused to pray in its vicinity as well because for the same reason

There's a saying in arabics that says " ربنا لا تؤاخذنا بما فعل السفهاء منا " which means " God do not blame us for what ignorant have done "
Which is exactly the case here, just because some morons burnt Buddhist temples, doesn't mean we're a bunch of apes and savages

P.S : I find it funny how you didn't mention the buddhist of Burma killing, and kicking muslims out of their homes and even from Burma itself... But I guess nobody gives a fuck about that right ?

Re: Muslim protesters torch Buddhist temples

Zehahaha- You are totally misunderstand the point. I didn't say anything about Muslims historically. Hey, why not, I will even confess if you guys like to talk about history which this thread isn't about since it is about current issues. I will acknowledge that Islam was a progressive religion and gave women a lot more right than other civilizations out there when it first started. However, that is like what 2000 years ago. I am not talking about ancient history here people.

I see that is more like an ethnic conflict. And I am trying to stray away from ethnic conflict because study have found that Latinos are number one terrorist group which probably is about drug cartel. If you actually read that wiki link (I know wiki is not a credible source for papers, but if you are not writing some damn useless college paper, it is a damn fine source). The damage between both sides are about the same, one thing I must admire about muslims are they are not a bunch of pushover. Also the damn thing is started based on that source (I don't know for sure but for I will assume it until further evidence) is that a muslim minority rape and murder of a woman.

Do I think violent is a good reaction? effing no. But if it is still a better reason than some Buddhist post a facebook post. And once again, those two countries are close together but these are two separate nations. So your point is bullshit. So what next, would you use something like that to justify, if a burning of a Buddhist temple occurred in Germany, would you still cite the same reason?

Lastly, I do not condone drone strikes. I have spoken against it on other forum. If those protests were about the drone strike, I would damn stand inline with Muslims across the world. But hell no, people rather wasting their time over a crappy film and some facebook posts.

And here we go again, some moderate muslims (or in most case American liberals), trying to either justify violent acts or down play it because it is universal and everyone does it right?
We must focus on now and right now, because when boil down to it, almost every damn race, religion, and nationality is wrong about something in the past. However, it isn't a good enough reason for it.

Since you clearly didn't read what I wrote before, I am more focus on what the moderate muslims should do rather than the extremists. Aren't what you doing is trying to be defensive? Aren't what you doing trying to clear a more of a wedge?

I had some discussion on youtube, I goddam respect any muslims (and there a few), who stated those who did those acts are terrorists and morons. That's it, they don't try to justify it. They don't try to blame it on something else. They see it for it is. Once they came to that agreement they could have further discuss about other issues like peace like the west imperialism.

Let me tell you, if I saw a Muslim woman getting harass in Walmart by some white lady. I would go right up and defend her, and I would tell that white lady to stop being racist. I wouldn't try to justify it because of some Muslims somewhere around the world doing something bad.

You can find ton about us drone strike on us news source which included TYT, a progressive news I am listening to. They outright condemn it. That's how this culture is. We are trying to be fair and balance while some of us beating the war drums. Would let's say a Muslim nation posted an article that would be rather fair and balance regarding the burning of Buddhist temples, especially why it is started in the first place. In the USA, we have people like Jon Stewart. What is the equivalent of Jon Stewart? And I am a bit annoy that although not the majority, but still a large percentage of Muslims across the world want to limit the right of free speech. And keep this very focus. Because yes, we can talk about China, and other countries, but if you like the route, it is universal everyone doing it. So yeah, nothing should change. And things are damn fine the way they are.

Re: Muslim protesters torch Buddhist temples

I'm not trying to justify anything at all, I'm just sick of generalizations and such and how media portray violent actions that people do in the name of Islam, but when we try to explain that Islam have jackshit to do with this, people like you say it is history and have nothing to do with the matter, then what do you want more than that ? What do you want me to do except saying that I'm against this kind of shit ?

Again, you totally misunderstood why I bought that whole Burma deal, it's because rare are the people who mentioned, no one gave a fuck, but when so called Muslims burned some buddhist temples, medias are making a huge deal out of it, and that is what annoying me

As for free speech, I'm sorry, but being dissing people and even insulting =/= free speech (like that movie), if it was someone who criticized Islam, and who said he doesn't agree with it and explains his point, I'd like it, because it could lead to healthy debate, but doing provocative actions and then say " Hurr durr free speech ", no sorry, that's not free speech.

Again, I'm totally against what happened in Bangladesh, and against the bias that media do when it comes to Muslim suffering either

Re: Muslim protesters torch Buddhist temples

Originally Posted by Zehahaha

I'm not trying to justify anything at all, I'm just sick of generalizations and such and how media portray violent actions that people do in the name of Islam, but when we try to explain that Islam have jackshit to do with this, people like you say it is history and have nothing to do with the matter, then what do you want more than that ? What do you want me to do except saying that I'm against this kind of shit ?

Point taken, but in America, due to free speech, half of the media do try to be fair and balance. But, and yes, Islam does have to do with it. Because people are offended that their prophet was being made fun of. Let's skipped this latest film. There was a film director that have a film that isn't dipshit like the current film that have real criticism about Islam. And he was murder. This has nothing to do with the average Muslims. But the fact is that Muslims in general are so sensitive about the prophet. If they don't do violent, they would still be mad as hell. Why? If you gave me a case, where other religions go on do something violent over because we are offended of our religious leader were portrayed. Then I would think those groups are nuts. But for current issues, for some reasons, most of these cases associated with Islam.

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Again, you totally misunderstood why I bought that whole Burma deal, it's because rare are the people who mentioned, no one gave a fuck, but when so called Muslims burned some buddhist temples, medias are making a huge deal out of it, and that is what annoying me

Because the reason is totally irrational and incomprehensible, if the Buddhist minority rape a muslim person and cause all this tension. And the damage is one sided, which the source had prove it isn't heavily one sided, then perhaps I could understand (even those I am against it) the reason for their sentiment. Like in Middle East, certain portion of our media has a clear agenda. Why then gave them anything to air it? I meant if these things don't exist, we won't air it: whether it was that mentally retard Christian girl that was about to get lynch due to accusation of blasphemy, or the killing of the ambassador over a shitty film that no one know about, and or burning of buddhist temple over a facebook post. I stressed facebook post.

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As for free speech, I'm sorry, but being dissing people and even insulting =/= free speech (like that movie), if it was someone who criticized Islam, and who said he doesn't agree with it and explains his point, I'd like it, because it could lead to healthy debate, but doing provocative actions and then say " Hurr durr free speech ", no sorry, that's not free speech.

In my adopted American culture, free speech also equal the right not to listen to something. For example, if there is a political film that stunk, we don't pay attention to it, we don't go see it, we don't give money to it. Free speech doesn't give the right for that director giving false information to the actors and actresses and expose them to danger. In fact, that movie director will perhaps go to prison for lying about employer-employee contract. Free speech is limited in case where the audience is hold hostage like school, and or under government condition, like churches can't promote a certain candidates while having exemption to taxes. There is negative consequences to free speech. However, if you start to regulate free speech, the regime would become oppress. As a human, I have a right to disagree with the film. And perhaps as a human, I have the right to punch the director on the face. However, as an American citizen, I may be imprison for my actions. These violent mob, they don't take consequences for shit. I am grateful that the Libyans staged a counter protest against the violent. When that particular article was posted on Yahoo, many Americans comments in favor of that and hail them as fearless and brave. Up course, there are numb nuts out there. But know this, the west do notice these things. Do you think more news like that when moderate Muslims taking a stance, would lessen the tension? That would help race relation and or between religions?

And when the Americans have more favorable view of the Muslims, wouldn't that help between the peace in ME. Even right now, Obama (who has a terrible record on human right) do not want a war with Iran even Israel prime minister are stressing on it.

Re: Muslim protesters torch Buddhist temples

Mmkay. Weixiabao, you seem to misunderstand me. I'm not defending the people who are destroying the temples or the people afraid to condemn such acts. Nor am I downplaying it. I'm simply stating why they would be afraid. Personally, I despise anyone who fights change because they have it good right now. At the same time, I can understand why they'd be afraid. If you become destitute for doing the right thing and have people (e.g. a family) depending on you, you have to ask if it was worth it. If the world around you tells you to die because you did what you judged to be right, unless you're a psychopath, you wonder if you were wrong all along.

I think an interesting example is perhaps [url=http://atheistforums.org/thread-4589.html]this story from a man in Saudi Arabia writing about why he is an atheist[/quote]. Take it with a grain of salt since it is an anecdote. FOR THE RECORD! Do NOT take this as a religious discussion. Whether you agree or disagree with his views is irrelevant. This is an example of how in regions of the world where people are suppressed for an ideology (or lack thereof), there is a reason to fear for their lives.

Shouldn't be that way and we can't let it stay that way. But it is human nature.

Originally Posted by weixiaobao

If we have problem, when a person blame a rape victim for the rape, we would go off on them so why does we should act different in this case.

The rightwing does it all the time and Americans forgive 'em always. That's the nutshell of Akin talking about "legitimate rape".

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I even especially hate people who lum passive religions with the Western monotheist ones. Yes, why not just says thing in general. And be okay with the general situation. There is nothing to be angry about, it's universal.

As briefly mentioned by zehahaha, Buddhism and Hinduism have their share of horrors. When you dictate a religion, it's inevitable that fundamentalism happens because words are poor constructs to convey a conscience.

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You keep bringing fundie up. Since you are very particular about defining. You should define it.

Mmkay, here's what I wrote earlier: "Note that fundies is my term to generalize over all groups that proselytize agendas."

But to be more specific, I'd say a fundamentalist is someone who takes the agenda too far, ignoring the spirit of the ideology for the words of the ideology. I think we see this more commonly called out in religion because you are restricted to a given set of sacred texts, whereas modern ideology is a little (very little) fluid.

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But the fact is that within the USA for example, Muslims in general is view as unfavorably. You may dismissed all of that. But that wouldn't change anything. You can't just wait until these so call people who have unfavorable opinions to change their mind or accept "its' universal." People are not saint and all knowing and altruistic.

America is a fear culture right now too. This election is defined by "I've got what I have and I don't want to give a dime".

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Based on your reply, you accepted that there is flaw within the Muslim community. Why do you think that the Muslim community in particular (and don't pander the discussion to other ethnic group or religions) that the fundy thrive here? I look at one graph, latinos outweight the Muslims in term of terrorism act due to all the drug cartel. But that is a whole different species.

Ha! Not so. Oh, there are fundamentalists everywhere. Though it is true that in theocracies, fundamentalism is encouraged. When government law is defined by arbitrary religious scriptures designed for earlier populations, it's inevitable that the more outlandish laws get brought in as a way of maintaining power. This is not endemic to Islam as much as religion in general. It's just that due to historical effects, Islamic theocracies are in vogue right now.

It's not true everywhere. There are regions in the US, particularly the Midwest, that try to become evangelical theocracies by enforcing alcohol bans or contraception bans. Those are the exact same kinds of people. The only difference is that a functioning legal system based on burden of evidence is enforced.

Let's talk about my personal experience, because I am a flaw person and subject to what I experienced.
On campus, Muslims student held events to clear up misunderstanding about their community. Hence, you can see they try to seek acceptance.
But you ask them about how they view gay people, they all stutter up. Is it fair to project this to the entire community.
Maybe not, but my common sense, dictate me to follow a certain thinking until proven other wise. And you in particular hasn't provide me any reason to think other wise.

Oh indeed. I've done the same with Christians on campus. Thanks for the article. I always lol @ the "God created Adam and Eve" stuff, because Eve was supposedly from Adam's rib. God created Lilith supposedly, but since she wouldn't take any shit from Adam, she was turned into bitch/whore. By the logic of Adam and Eve stuff, women should submit themselves to men. Fuck that.

Originally Posted by Zehahaha

Again, you totally misunderstood why I bought that whole Burma deal, it's because rare are the people who mentioned, no one gave a fuck, but when so called Muslims burned some buddhist temples, medias are making a huge deal out of it, and that is what annoying me

The temple burnings have been going for the last couple of months. I think what you might like to focus on is the partition of India and Pakistan. That is an iconic example of religious division with both sides conducting brutal slaughter.

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As for free speech, I'm sorry, but being dissing people and even insulting =/= free speech (like that movie), if it was someone who criticized Islam, and who said he doesn't agree with it and explains his point, I'd like it, because it could lead to healthy debate, but doing provocative actions and then say " Hurr durr free speech ", no sorry, that's not free speech.

Hate speech is always a toughie. The best approach is to laugh at the bully who said it and make them feel small. Legislating that, though, is difficult.The last thing anyone can do is make it into a big thing. I think the guy behind the movie should be prosecuted according to his tendency to go by aliases and parole violations, but no more than that.

Re: Muslim protesters torch Buddhist temples

First and foremost, I appreciate reading different view points. I will read and reply to Earthforge soon. I know about controversial topic that got me really rile up on, I can be very passionate and borderline being a jerk. I hope if I do, you guys would forgive me.

The rightwing does it all the time and Americans forgive 'em always. That's the nutshell of Akin talking about "legitimate rape".

Only valid, if he won his election.

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As briefly mentioned by zehahaha, Buddhism and Hinduism have their share of horrors.

False, although I don't want to argue with Hinduism, but by all meant it seems Muslims have it better in India as opposed to Hindi in Pakistan. However, the story about Buddhism is already debunk on my previous post. It was more like a race tension and ignite by a rape/murder of a woman by the muslim minority. This has nothing to do with Buddhism as a religion. Taoism and Confucianism in past history in China, emperor had used to dictate one religion over another and cause massacre. But that is a whim of one's man. And as far as I know, Buddhism was never a cause for a massacre. I maybe wrong. But if there is one and so not very well known, this fact alone speak volumes compare to the more numerous other crime by other religions.

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It's not true everywhere. There are regions in the US, particularly the Midwest, that try to become evangelical theocracies by enforcing alcohol bans or contraception bans. Those are the exact same kinds of people. The only difference is that a functioning legal system based on burden of evidence is enforced.

I supposed, like I say, I do not tolerate the right wing of this country. But isn't it common sense that Moderate American Muslim would kind of on board with these same social issues?

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Hate speech is always a toughie. The best approach is to laugh at the bully who said it and make them feel small. Legislating that, though, is difficult.The last thing anyone can do is make it into a big thing. I think the guy behind the movie should be prosecuted according to his tendency to go by aliases and parole violations, but no more than that.

Re: Muslim protesters torch Buddhist temples

Originally Posted by weixiaobao

Point taken, but in America, due to free speech, half of the media do try to be fair and balance. But, and yes, Islam does have to do with it. Because people are offended that their prophet was being made fun of. Let's skipped this latest film. There was a film director that have a film that isn't dipshit like the current film that have real criticism about Islam. And he was murder. This has nothing to do with the average Muslims. But the fact is that Muslims in general are so sensitive about the prophet. If they don't do violent, they would still be mad as hell. Why? If you gave me a case, where other religions go on do something violent over because we are offended of our religious leader were portrayed. Then I would think those groups are nuts. But for current issues, for some reasons, most of these cases associated with Islam.

As for why Muslims are pretty much mad when someone insults our prophet, its because of his place on our hearts, no matter how many words I'd use, you'd never get it. But then again, it's not a reason for being violent or murdering people at all, why people do it ? There's only one reason : A deep misunderstaning of religion, I can give you one basic example to show you just how rotten Muslims have gotten. For instance, Lying is totally forbidden in our religion, yet a lot of muslims keep on lying. Alcohol is forbidden too, yet a lot of muslims drink it etc

Muslims, the vast majority are muslims in name, I know a lot of people who were mad at that crappy movie, and yet every single week end you see them in Nightclubs drinking alcohol and getting bitches while it is strictly forbidden...

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Because the reason is totally irrational and incomprehensible, if the Buddhist minority rape a muslim person and cause all this tension. And the damage is one sided, which the source had prove it isn't heavily one sided, then perhaps I could understand (even those I am against it) the reason for their sentiment. Like in Middle East, certain portion of our media has a clear agenda. Why then gave them anything to air it? I meant if these things don't exist, we won't air it: whether it was that mentally retard Christian girl that was about to get lynch due to accusation of blasphemy, or the killing of the ambassador over a shitty film that no one know about, and or burning of buddhist temple over a facebook post. I stressed facebook post.

Irrational and incomprehensible yes, I agree, but it's just because of that ? Take the Burma case again, does it seem rational and comprehensible what people did to Muslims there ? Heck do you even know the reason ? Its because there was a lot of Buddhists that were CONVERTING to Islam... Then why I didn't see those great defenders of human rights and freedom shouting like they do ? But if it is the Muslims at fault, you can be sure you'll see them in every corner talking and talking. I do go to many newspaper's wesbites, especially the European ones, and never ever there was a single mention about the Burma deal, about the Buddhists temples burning, I saw a couple of articles... This is the kind of thing that annoys me

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In my adopted American culture, free speech also equal the right not to listen to something. For example, if there is a political film that stunk, we don't pay attention to it, we don't go see it, we don't give money to it. Free speech doesn't give the right for that director giving false information to the actors and actresses and expose them to danger. In fact, that movie director will perhaps go to prison for lying about employer-employee contract. Free speech is limited in case where the audience is hold hostage like school, and or under government condition, like churches can't promote a certain candidates while having exemption to taxes. There is negative consequences to free speech. However, if you start to regulate free speech, the regime would become oppress. As a human, I have a right to disagree with the film. And perhaps as a human, I have the right to punch the director on the face. However, as an American citizen, I may be imprison for my actions. These violent mob, they don't take consequences for shit. I am grateful that the Libyans staged a counter protest against the violent. When that particular article was posted on Yahoo, many Americans comments in favor of that and hail them as fearless and brave. Up course, there are numb nuts out there. But know this, the west do notice these things. Do you think more news like that when moderate Muslims taking a stance, would lessen the tension? That would help race relation and or between religions?

It wouldn't lessen the tension but more like make extremists to back off a bit, the tension would still be there because of a deep misunderstanding of the religion
The roots of all the problems in the Middle East and North Africa in general is that : We threw off our Islamic values

I'll go back to history again, there's a reason why Arabs back then were able to take both Syria and Persia under their control while : Persians and Byzantines were always outnumbering Arabs, have a better experience when it came to wars and military tactics, and even the weaponry. The reason is the belief, the belief in God, the Prophet and the Islamic values.

As for the free speech part, personally, I don't thing that free speech =/= diffamation, insulting etc but then again, it doesn't mean we should be offended by it that much, we should just ignore it

And Umar Ibn Al Khattab said it as well : " إذا سمعت الكلمة تؤذيك ، فطأطئ لها حتى تتخطاك " which means that if anyone insults you, just ignore it and forget about it

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And when the Americans have more favorable view of the Muslims, wouldn't that help between the peace in ME. Even right now, Obama (who has a terrible record on human right) do not want a war with Iran even Israel prime minister are stressing on it.

You know very well that Obama don't want war with Iran not out of compassion and suddenly having a " conscience "... USA simply cannot go to war against Iran because Iran isn't Iraq, and the USA will have to deal with severe consequences if they ever go to war now, and not only that, but there's an economic crisis for now (well I bet some economists still think that war is good for the economy tho)

Re: Muslim protesters torch Buddhist temples

Originally Posted by Zehahaha

As for why Muslims are pretty much mad when someone insults our prophet, its because of his place on our hearts, no matter how many words I'd use, you'd never get it.

I do get it. I already state that I am a secularist. If I have to chose where to live, I will not live in a Muslim community. The fact is that Muslim identify their religion with their race, national identity, sense of pride. Almost like a cult, don't take what I say the wrong way. For example, Ho Chi Minh is the revolutionist that led Vietnam against the Japaneses, French, and the Americans. Right now, we can say, his status in Vietnam is borderline cultist. Know this, outside of your religion, Mohamed is a nobody. It is like in music, one artist is so good to another and is a nobody to another. And as a secularist, I don't like how much religion has an impact in a person's life. I will acknowledge that the facts are people will get offended when something is close to them. Within your community, and those who accepted your reality. You can make blasphemy law and what not. However, such laws should effect whether a french man in France want to draw a political cartoon of Mohammed.

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Muslims, the vast majority are muslims in name, I know a lot of people who were mad at that crappy movie, and yet every single week end you see them in Nightclubs drinking alcohol and getting bitches while it is strictly forbidden...

I like that you brought it up. I supposed every religions are like that. But is it also not Islamic law that the death penalty is for those who are no longer a muslim? How do you decided to be a muslim? Is it mostly because you were born in Muslim family? Also bringing up the freedom of speech. It came to my attention that sometimes in the ME whether it is in the Jewish community or Muslim community that they would banned the like of Harry Potter for witch craft and or Pokemon for some other reason. Since I think this would hit home since this is a manga forum. Who know maybe let say, one day they decided to ban One Piece because of way way too many homosexual subtext.

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Heck do you even know the reason ? Its because there was a lot of Buddhists that were CONVERTING to Islam...

The wiki source clearly cited that the murder/rape of a woman was the spark of the massacre which btw, both sides seemed to lose just about equal amount of homes and lives. I will take that the tension is already pre-existed due to what you say. I will go into history here, since I think it is appropriate, religion tied pretty heavily with imperialism. Christians try to convert the natives and then colonize them. In Asian, there are Islam nation, why not just stick to where you belong. Beside, one can renounce Buddhism and Christianity fairly easy. While, apostasy equals death if Muslim community that is a theocracy. I don't know whether your statement is true that is indeed happening. But I could see understand the fear, in my own flawed human experience, if my neighborhood turning into a Muslim community, I would get the hell out of there. I will be honest here, I am a gay individual. I do not believe the Muslim community is very tolerant of my kind anyway. Who know, if I am unlucky enough to be born as a son of Muslim family. And if they are irrational (most are sane), they may give me the honor killing.

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The roots of all the problems in the Middle East and North Africa in general is that : We threw off our Islamic values

The problem around the world is that, religions are more than religions. They try to take hold of every social institutions and established every foundation of moral.

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The reason is the belief, the belief in God, the Prophet and the Islamic values.

Hmmm, I wouldn't quote that sort of stuff, if I were you. In vietnam, during the war, there are some questionable sect brain wash the population so much. That they thought, they have divine help. They wouldn't afraid of no guns or cannons. They charge head on so much. That the French was terrify at killing so much people. I would call those people crazy. It is a very thin line from that to, well convert the whole world into Islam in able to save the people, especially since we got God on our side.

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And Umar Ibn Al Khattab said it as well : " إذا سمعت الكلمة تؤذيك ، فطأطئ لها حتى تتخطاك " which means that if anyone insults you, just ignore it and forget about it

Correct attitude, but many don't practice it. Though, free speech doesn't always allow hate speech. If a racist person, go vandalize another person's properties and spray KKK and Nazi symbol. That person would go to jail. Or if a person verbally abuse another person, that person could go to jail. I think the Muslim community misunderstood the concept of free speech in the West. It isn't like any goes, and or anarchism.

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You know very well that Obama don't want war with Iran not out of compassion and suddenly having a " conscience ".

It doesn't matter what Obama's intention is. What matter is this, Obama may not have another 4 years. When the whole Muslim protest break out, people viewed Obama super negatively. If his opponent Romney is the next president, the probability for war with Iran just went up quite quite quite quite a lot. The middle east people don't know the delicate is the situation that they are in. Obama at least back up Israel just a tiny bit. But Romney already announced, peace in the Middle East is impossible. What I am saying is that people are walking a really really fine line? Certainly Romney would react to the whole protest even more aggressively than Obama would have. If you think right now is bad, it could be worse.

Re: Muslim protesters torch Buddhist temples

Originally Posted by weixiaobao

I do get it. I already state that I am a secularist. If I have to chose where to live, I will not live in a Muslim community. The fact is that Muslim identify their religion with their race, national identity, sense of pride. And as a secularist, I don't like how much religion has an impact in a person's life. I will acknowledge that the facts are people will get offended when something is close to them. .

1- Just want to point out something here again : Islam has nothing to do with race, meaning it is stated in your Quran that there's no difference between Black and white, Arabs and any other races, so again, people who use religion to be prideful and put themselves above people are wrong

2- Second thing : well let's take the example of a Muslim in the US for example, it doesn't matter how much religion affects his life as long as he respect the law there right ? I do agree tho that there's some batshit insane extremists that are twisted enough that they want to change the laws and rules in US/Europe, I do remember seeing pics of protests in UK I think where it was shown " Behead those who insult Islam " or " Death to UK soldiers " something along those lines, I'm totally against those kind of things... Muslims should not try to " force " their beliefs on other people, as it is forbidden too either, and it was said in the Quran " لا إكراه في الدين "which means there you shouldn't force people into Islam, or force our beliefs into people

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I like that you brought it up. I supposed every religions are like that. But is it also not Islamic law that the death penalty is for those who are no longer a muslim? How do you decided to be a muslim? Is it mostly because you were born in Muslim family? Also bringing up the freedom of speech. It came to my attention that sometimes in the ME whether it is in the Jewish community or Muslim community that they would banned the like of Harry Potter for witch craft and or Pokemon for some other reason. Since I think this would hit home since this is a manga forum. Who know maybe let say, one day they decided to ban One Piece because of way way too many homosexual subtext.

To be a muslim one must say " There's no god but Allah and Muhammad is his prophet ", Islam isn't something hereditary and more importantly, to follow Islamic teachings.

As for the death penalty thing, it is a misunderstanding, I'll try to sum it as much as possible, Arabic is a complex language with many many words, the word " الردَّة " means apostasy, but there's two things to take into account : " الخروج من الإسلام " which means not believing in Islam anymore and " الخروج على الإسلام " which means scheming against Islam and trying to hurt the muslim community. For the first case, there's no penalty at all, it is an individual choice that is made by the person, in which he didn't intend any harm to the community, the second case is the opposite, as he does intend to harm the community, in which the death penalty is the punishement.

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I will be honest here, I am a gay individual. I do not believe the Muslim community is very tolerant of my kind anyway. Who know, if I am unlucky enough to be born as a son of Muslim family. And if they are irrational (most are sane), they may give me the honor killing.

Honor killing =/= Islam, just to make this clear. As for you being gay, hey, my religion says it's a sin, but, that's between you and God, I can't kill you nor even touch you because of that.

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Hmmm, I wouldn't quote that sort of stuff, if I were you. In vietnam, during the war, there are some questionable sect brain wash the population so much. That they thought, they have divine help. They wouldn't afraid of no guns or cannons. They charge head on so much. That the French was terrify at killing so much people. I would call those people crazy. It is a very thin line from that to, well convert the whole world into Islam in able to save the people, especially since we got God on our side.

Go read again, and you'll see Muslims weren't that foolish... When you talk about early days of Islam, you'll inevitably come to talk about the genius of Muslim generals and leaders : Umar Ibn Al Khattab, Abu Bakr, Khalid Ibn Al Walid (he's known as one of the most greatest military leaders of all times), but when I said the strong belief in God, and the strong belief into God's promise to our prophet Muhammad that Syria and Persia will be under his rule, it doesn't mean that Muslims charged recklessly, but they always outsmarted their enemies, and were careful, but they were not afraid of Death, that's what I meant by it

I strongly advise you to read the Prophets military conquests, and military conquests unders the first Caliph Abu Bakr (the reunification of the Arabs under Islam) and Umar (especially Umar, since the Islamic nation expanded the most during his rule, and the most decisive battles happened in his rule : Al Qaddissiya against Persians which lead to the destruction of the Sassanid Empire, and Al Yarmouk which lead to Byzantines retreating from Syria and Egypt)

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Correct attitude, but many don't practice it. Though, free speech doesn't always allow hate speech. If a racist person, go vandalize another person's properties and spray KKK and Nazi symbol. That person would go to jail. Or if a person verbally abuse another person, that person could go to jail. I think the Muslim community misunderstood the concept of free speech in the West. It isn't like any goes, and or anarchism.

Many don't practice it indeed, but as I pointed out, there's a bias toward Muslim in medias, and that's what bugging the majority of Muslims

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It doesn't matter what Obama's intention is. What matter is this, Obama may not have another 4 years. When the whole Muslim protest break out, people viewed Obama super negatively. If his opponent Romney is the next president, the probability for war with Iran just went up quite quite quite quite a lot. The middle east people don't know the delicate is the situation that they are in. Obama at least back up Israel just a tiny bit. But Romney already announced, peace in the Middle East is impossible. What I am saying is that people are walking a really really fine line? Certainly Romney would react to the whole protest even more aggressively than Obama would have. If you think right now is bad, it could be worse.

Well I could see Romney attacking Iran, but I doubt it... it would be just plain idiotic and stupid