Game's already over but I DVR'ed it and watched the whole thing after I got off work at 3 PM.; Cavs pulled it out at the end and won 102-94. Kyrie was his usual sensational self with a great all-around game; 25 pts, 7 assists, 4 rebounds and 1 each of steals/blocks. As per usual he could get to the hoop at will and was effective with either hand. They were down 16 in the 3rd put were led by a very surprising guy, Omri Casspi, who had 3 or 4 and-1's in the 3rd quarter alone and finished 14/7/2 on 4-8 shooting. His line was good but his shot still looked horrible and he badly missed both of his 3-point attempts. Also clocking in the "Not Utterly Useless" category for the first time this game was Semih Erden with 5 points, 6 rebounds and something resembling a post game.

I can't remember, was that a 3-5 or 4-4 road trip? Regardless they played very well, albeit against some of the lesser teams again. Overall they have one of the weaker schedules in the league but are still looking good. Even with the lockout and lack of true training camp, they're coming together pretty quickly.

Also, former Buckeye Byron (or BJ if you're nasty) Mullens is looking like a legitimate NBA player. When he first declared after his freshman season I thought it was a huge mistake and he would wash out after his rookie contract. Low and behold he's actually starting for the JordanCats and looking good. He's been good on the boards and has a surprising array of offensive moves, though his range is not as deep as he thinks it is as he, also, badly missed on 2 three-point attempts (he did make 1).

rebelwithoutaclue wrote:Game's already over but I DVR'ed it and watched the whole thing after I got off work at 3 PM.; Cavs pulled it out at the end and won 102-94. Kyrie was his usual sensational self with a great all-around game; 25 pts, 7 assists, 4 rebounds and 1 each of steals/blocks. As per usual he could get to the hoop at will and was effective with either hand. They were down 16 in the 3rd put were led by a very surprising guy, Omri Casspi, who had 3 or 4 and-1's in the 3rd quarter alone and finished 14/7/2 on 4-8 shooting. His line was good but his shot still looked horrible and he badly missed both of his 3-point attempts. Also clocking in the "Not Utterly Useless" category for the first time this game was Semih Erden with 5 points, 6 rebounds and something resembling a post game.

I can't remember, was that a 3-5 or 4-4 road trip? Regardless they played very well, albeit against some of the lesser teams again. Overall they have one of the weaker schedules in the league but are still looking good. Even with the lockout and lack of true training camp, they're coming together pretty quickly.

rebelwithoutaclue wrote:Also, former Buckeye Byron (or BJ if you're nasty) Mullens is looking like a legitimate NBA player. When he first declared after his freshman season I thought it was a huge mistake and he would wash out after his rookie contract. Low and behold he's actually starting for the JordanCats and looking good. He's been good on the boards and has a surprising array of offensive moves, though his range is not as deep as he thinks it is as he, also, badly missed on 2 three-point attempts (he did make 1).

It was still a huge mistake. He was awful at Ohio State and completely worthless in his first few seasons in the NBA (actually, I should say in the D-League, he was so bad that he was rarely in the NBA).

Turned the game on sometime in the 2nd, and they were up by 6. They proceeded to suck until I had to turn the tv off and go to work at 3. Just checked/re-checked/checked one last time, and it looks as if they won. Can anyone confirm this?

Thanks. Apparently they were only playing like shit while I watched. 6-6, 4-5 on the road, better than I expected. Not reading too much into it, as this is kind of how they started last yr. But their schedule gets really tough soon, so we'll see how that works out. Very pleased Kyrie is transitioning the way he is. Casspi actually had a decent game.... it was against the Bobcats so I don't think that should count..

Boobie's is building on last years's progress. He was easily the best perimeter defender on the team last year (very relative as the others were terrible). I'd say he is at the point where he is an effective defender and sometimes stopper. He did some boxing work in the offseason to improve his handspeed, and it seems to have paid off in creating turnovers.

On Kyrie, yeah. Young PG's are usually turnstiles and his lack of stopping the dribble drive is compounded by not having a shotblock/paintfilling presence.

"When a man with money meets a man with experience, the man with experience leaves with money and the man with money leaves with experience."

Boobie was one of the best perim defenders two years ago and should have gotten a shot at Rondo in the playoffs. People that talk about his bad D didn't bother to pay attention over the last few years as he has steadily improved every year and was 100x better than Mo.

e0y2e3 wrote:Boobie was one of the best perim defenders two years ago and should have gotten a shot at Rondo in the playoffs. People that talk about his bad D didn't bother to pay attention over the last few years as he has steadily improved every year and was 100x better than Mo.

+1.

StewieG wrote:Couple observations:

Kyrie's getting destroyed on the defensive side. He really has to work hard on that part of his game. On the flip side, Boobie's quietly become a very effective defender. Did not see that one coming.

Kyrie isn't conditioned yet and his offense is way more important to the team right now. Plus, he usually doesn't have a shot blocker behind him.

TT can block some shots, but he is hardly ever on the floor at the same time as Kyrie. Without an intimidator behind them and hand-checking, most pgs are going to get by most other pgs. That's just how the league is.

That's about to stop. Although the effing Celtics could actually lose both ends of that upcoming home and home series. But the Cavs have the Heat, Bulls, Hawks, Magic, Mavs, Clippers and Miami (and Boston twice) in their next 11 after tonight.

e0y2e3 wrote:And sacrifice all floor spacing so Kyrie can run into brick walls around the lane!!!!

TT 4 LIFE

Because Kyrie can't shoot pull up jumpers? Or dish to a now more open TT or Varejao? While he hasn't hit it this year, Varejao was hitting some jumpers last year. Or Scott can't run plays to overcome this?

BUT OMG WE NEED FLOOR SPACING!

Kyrie needs to learn to work with TT going forward, and if we lose more games because our floor spacing sucks, then hot diggity daffodil.

TT will never be an impact four unless he can keep offenses at least honest and thus far going to the tape shows no post game and no jumper which makes him a 20MPG player at most on any team in the league.

He stays on the bench until this changes.

Period.

You don't force a rookie PG to play Derrick Rose running with the Bulls second unit during his rookie year. It yields bad habits, ruins his understanding of what real floor spacing it, etc.

I know you guys all want to blow TT because he plays hard, hit a jumper that one time and is long, but his useage and roll matches exactly what it should for someone of his skill set.

And he's getting plenty of time to develop into something more useful than what he currently is.

BTW: go look at the breakdown Pruiti posted that was linked here, go acknowledge that nothing has changed and then keep on cheering for making your rookie PG deal with an extra front court defender hanging on him all the time. Sure is no better way to turn a player into an LBJ like ball pounder than making him run around with scrubs that can't score!!!

LakeErieWarriors wrote:Give him time e0, what did he do to you anyway, steal your car?

Time doesn't matter with guys that have never been impactful offensive players. You can give him 30 years if you like but that doesn't and won't make him what he's not. He'll score 10 a night like Andy does; on tips and dunks and learning to play off penetration. There will even be nights when he knocks down more 12-15 footers than he misses (they will be rare).

But his offensive ceiling ain't a whole hell of a lot higher than where he is now. He's worse than a freaking coin flip from 15 feet, looking right at the rim and the action stopped.

e0y2e3 is right about this. It's not a crime to see it or say it. And with as shitty as this draft will historically turn out to be, 10/10 and 2-3 blocks every night might end up to be as good as anything you could expect.

Sure is no better way to turn a player into an LBJ like ball pounder than making him run around with scrubs that can't score!!

Have you watched the Cavs this season? He is running around with scrubs that can't score. And his usage rate is about the same as what LeBron's has been throughout his career(~30%), and is currently 6th in the league. Haven't seen him just pounding the ball though.

And did you hear about this new play they can run where the big defending TT will have to stay close or risk letting Kyrie score? I can't remember the name, but I think it rhymes with smick and smoll.

A high usage rate with Jamo at least gives Kyrie space and Andy is most effective with the pick and roll. I have no idea why you guys want to clog the lane even more for a rookie point, it's fucking just bad basketball.

You don't put two bigs on the court together that are only capable to score from the pick and roll (and one that isn't even proven running it) out there with a rookie PG. I have no idea why this simple fact of basketball is getting me shit, but whatever. Scott is playing the kid and letting him develop without totally destroying the congestion in the lane, it's pretty effin simple.

Nice call on the pick and roll though, never heard of it. For sure they should live off of one play that is going to work rarely since the big isn't even a threat to stop and pop. Offense by Mike Brown and LBJ right there.

And man, that outlet at center named Andy will for sure hold his defender out of the lane on the fierce threat of a TT and Kyrie P&R.

Christ, the kid is an offensive black hole, getting him developmental time while not ruining any concept of floor spacing tends to be a nice goal.

Just like when I drank h8teraid and said Kyrie isn't a franchise player in the Rose/Howard/LBJ/etc al mold Pup, there is no middle-ground between saying a player sucks and calling them amazing here.

It's unreal.

The concepts of average, above average and role players have just disappeared and yielded me getting shit for comparing Kyrie to the 4-8 PGs in the league and calling him the PG version of Al Horford (you know, incredibly consistent and All-Star regular Horford).

Now it's the same shit with TT.

Fuck me, I'm not saying anything overly negative about either of these kids. TT has a role and a base to develop and Kyrie is pretty effin good.

These are the same people that pretend like Alonzo Gee has a future in the league....

e0y2e3 wrote:Just like when I drank h8teraid and said Kyrie isn't a franchise player in the Rose/Howard/LBJ/etc al mold Pup, there is no middle-ground between saying a player sucks and calling them amazing here.

It's unreal.

The concepts of average, above average and role players have just disappeared and yielded me getting shit for comparing Kyrie to the 4-8 PGs in the league and calling him the PG version of Al Horford (you know, incredibly consistent and All-Star regular Horford).

Now it's the same shit with TT.

Fuck me, I'm not saying anything overly negative about either of these kids. TT has a role and a base to develop and Kyrie is pretty effin good.

These are the same people that pretend like Alonzo Gee has a future in the league....

Does towel boy count as a future in the league? Assistant video coordinator?

Early early season Gee was a real player in this league, was hitting his outside shot, playing good defense, and moving the ball. Guy was lighting it up off the bench. Tail-end of early season Gee blows, can't hit from outside, can't finish at the rim, and is a hole on offense.

How do you go from awesome to zero in the span of 5 games. Thought guy really had it...

SEMIH ERDEN!

"When a man with money meets a man with experience, the man with experience leaves with money and the man with money leaves with experience."

Its amazing. TT's near to mid-term development is obvious, even for an asshole like myself. And his ceiling is about 10 time Gee's. It takes about 10 minutes of seeing a guy on the floor to realize he can do something useful on the NBA level, but has HUGE holes and may never be more then the first forward off the bench.

Can't people remember Bobby Phills rise from bench nobody to decent role player? It is a perfect Cleveland example of someone that got onto the court and could do something in whatever minutes he could scrape. See Ivan Johnson in Atlanta if you started watching the NBA last week. Alonzo Gee is a warm body with no future outside of the NBDL or end end end of bench. The whole Gee thing would make me crater if I wasn't busy doing more important things...

"When a man with money meets a man with experience, the man with experience leaves with money and the man with money leaves with experience."

TT's contribution will be defense and rebounding. Anything he provides offensively will be a bonus.

Last night TT forced three misses by Lee from the left block without fouling him, if I'm not mistaken. He didn't completely shut Lee down, but I thought he did a nice job with the opportunities he had. The Cavs have been getting hammered by power forwards that are lethal from the low post and can also hit the outside shot (Lee, Love, Aldridge, Gasol), and TT could grow into a defender who can at least limit the damage by these guys. Fortunately, most of them play in the Western Conference.

TT could also develop into an effective finisher off guard penetration. He's already at 48%. And I think with time and coaching he'll develop a decent go-to move facing the basket in the low post. He's got a quick first step, power, and a big vertical, but he doesn't know what to do with his tools yet.

The major problem is his free throw shooting (38%), since he draws fouls operating in the paint. He also needs to dial down the shot blocking a little. Last night he tried to jump over Erden to block a ball and left the glass wide open for an easy put back. With experience he'll learn to pick his spots better.

Sure, but what would you suggest they tell him to do on offense? The magical moves Pros claims he will develop to score in 1 on 1 situations that he doesn't have in any way? The non-existence back to the basket game he can't rely on? The lack of a real understanding of how to run the P & R?

The kid is Andy on offense. It's not the end of the world but there is no "DERP DERP, HE CAN'T SHOOT FT'S WHICH IS THE REAL PROBLEM BECAUSE HE WILL MAGICALLY DEVELOP A GO TO ONE ON ONE MOVE!!! DERP DERP!!!"

e0y2e3 wrote:Sure, but what would you suggest they tell him to do on offense? The magical moves Pros claims he will develop to score in 1 on 1 situations that he doesn't have in any way? The non-existence back to the basket game he can't rely on? The lack of a real understanding of how to run the P & R?

The kid is Andy on offense. It's not the end of the world but there is no "DERP DERP, HE CAN'T SHOOT FT'S WHICH IS THE REAL PROBLEM BECAUSE HE WILL MAGICALLY DEVELOP A GO TO ONE ON ONE MOVE!!! DERP DERP!!!"

I just don't understand. I really don't.

Guess I forgot one of those little smiley things. Sorry. Didn't mean to cost you another artery, you have to be down to the bare minimum these days.

Nothing to understand, really. Just continue on the Andy trajectory. If Andy wasn't a Cav no one would know who he was and no one would appreciate the fact he hustles and plays hard compared to the fact he has no offensive skills.

Same thing with TT. He's JAG on any other roster. If it was the Bobcats that spent the 4th pick on an athletic, offensively challenged college freshman no one would be projecting shit from TT down the road and they'd be asking why Charlotte used a 4th pick on that.

Here he's the incredibly athletic little acorn that will become the mighty oak with some time and coaching.

A fan base of built of rampant homers who also suffer from abused-wife syndrome aren't going to be the most objective group.

I am not sure why people are willing to say that Kyrie can't be a franchise player down the road?

I am not an NBA expert or anything but living in Chicago I watch D Rose play a lot.

The initial parallels to him and Kyrie are substantial.

In Chicago there were many mis-informed fans wanting the Bulls to draft Beasely over D Rose because D Rose "could be good and an important piece but not an Alpha Dog, franchise player". Sounds really familiar right? Replace D Rose with Kyrie and replace Beasely with Williams.

Also, the D Rose we see now that won the NBA MVP is definitely not the same guy we all saw in 2008. D Rose had no range at all coming into the league but he has worked on that part of his game and has kind of improved.

DRose played a full season at Memphis and spent the summer on the "select team" scrimaging against the USA Olympic team before he joined the league. He came in much more experienced, fit and seasoned than Kyrie.

In spite of the extra experience that D Rose had going into his rookie year and in spite of playing a lot more average minutes than Kyrie, Kyrie's numbers are better than D Roses were his rookie season.

I don't know if Kyrie can be the franchise player or not but I really think it is much too early to eliminate that possibility.

YahooFanChicago wrote:I am not sure why people are willing to say that Kyrie can't be a franchise player down the road?

I am not an NBA expert or anything but living in Chicago I watch D Rose play a lot.

The initial parallels to him and Kyrie are substantial.

In Chicago there were many mis-informed fans wanting the Bulls to draft Beasely over D Rose because D Rose "could be good and an important piece but not an Alpha Dog, franchise player". Sounds really familiar right? Replace D Rose with Kyrie and replace Beasely with Williams.

Also, the D Rose we see now that won the NBA MVP is definitely not the same guy we all saw in 2008. D Rose had no range at all coming into the league but he has worked on that part of his game and has kind of improved.

DRose played a full season at Memphis and spent the summer on the "select team" scrimaging against the USA Olympic team before he joined the league. He came in much more experienced, fit and seasoned than Kyrie.

In spite of the extra experience that D Rose had going into his rookie year and in spite of playing a lot more average minutes than Kyrie, Kyrie's numbers are better than D Roses were his rookie season.

I don't know if Kyrie can be the franchise player or not but I really think it is much too early to eliminate that possibility.

peeker643 wrote:Nothing to understand, really. Just continue on the Andy trajectory. If Andy wasn't a Cav no one would know who he was and no one would appreciate the fact he hustles and plays hard compared to the fact he has no offensive skills.

I'm thinking he's on the Andy trajectory as well. He's a little shorter but compensates with the long arms and much better vertical. His defensive upside may be higher due to the shot blocking potential, but like I said, he needs to pick his spots better.

Same thing with TT. He's JAG on any other roster. If it was the Bobcats that spent the 4th pick on an athletic, offensively challenged college freshman no one would be projecting shit from TT down the road and they'd be asking why Charlotte used a 4th pick on that.

Here he's the incredibly athletic little acorn that will become the mighty oak with some time and coaching.

Possibly a mighty oak on defense (I'm hoping for something Rodmanesque), but his offense will be limited to rebounding and finishing off guard penetration. At the risk of being acccused of rampant homerism, I feel that with his combinations of quickness, strength, and jumping ability he will be able, with "time and coaching", to develop one "decent" move from the low post. Not an unstoppable move, not an arsenal of moves that will get him 20 ppg, just one decent face-up move he can use when the shot clock is expiring and he's stuck with the ball. Sorry if that doesn't come across as objective enough, but I don't think it's unrealistic.

A fan base of built of rampant homers who also suffer from abused-wife syndrome aren't going to be the most objective group.

Give me a TT and his potential Rodmanesque upside once this team has a player (or 2) who can consistently score besides Kyrie. TT is a nice piece to bring off your bench to provide a spark and some D and a point here or there. There are a lot worse ways to earn a living.

Wasn't LBJ developing his game every off season when he was here but yet when the season started.......

Galley Boys are slop on top of a so-so burger and a bun you coulde get from a Covneninet food mart generic pack. They the Antoine Joubert of burgers; soft, sloppy, oozing grease and cheap sauce and extremely overrated by a biased fan base. Proof that if you throw enough cheap sauce shit on a burger you still can't overcome the lame burger. -JB

Give me a TT and his potential Rodmanesque upside once this team has a player (or 2) who can consistently score besides Kyrie. TT is a nice piece to bring off your bench to provide a spark and some D and a point here or there. There are a lot worse ways to earn a living.

Wasn't LBJ developing his game every off season when he was here but yet when the season started.......

That's it. TT can't start now because Irving would be the only player on the floor capable of creating his own shot. But assuming Jamo leaves to play for Charlotte after this season, or gets traded in March, TT will have to step in.

Next season the Cavs will have to find a starter to replace AP. It's going to have to be a scorer if the starting frontcourt will consist of AV, Casspi, and TT.

^ TT will not/should not be a starter unless this team has D Howard scoring down low and K Bryant scoring off the wing and Irving dishing the ball. This team can't afford to have >10 pts from their PF thus making TT is the high energy guy off the bench.

Sorry, I should have italisized Rodmanesque so the sarcasm would come through.

Galley Boys are slop on top of a so-so burger and a bun you coulde get from a Covneninet food mart generic pack. They the Antoine Joubert of burgers; soft, sloppy, oozing grease and cheap sauce and extremely overrated by a biased fan base. Proof that if you throw enough cheap sauce shit on a burger you still can't overcome the lame burger. -JB

^I guess we won't have to worry too much once he develops one low post move.

Galley Boys are slop on top of a so-so burger and a bun you coulde get from a Covneninet food mart generic pack. They the Antoine Joubert of burgers; soft, sloppy, oozing grease and cheap sauce and extremely overrated by a biased fan base. Proof that if you throw enough cheap sauce shit on a burger you still can't overcome the lame burger. -JB

Too bad we can't play all our games against the Bulls, Hawks, and Heat.

Samardo got a chance to play against Miami while TT recuperates. He took advantage of it with 15 points and 5 boards. If only we could get that consistently.

Once again the Cavs get sodomized by a quality power forward. There's a crying need for somebody who can at least contain the Boshes, Loves, Aldridges, and Boozers of the Association. Tonight it's Stoudamire.