If this is your first visit, be sure to
check out the FAQ by clicking the
link above. You may have to register
before you can post: click the register link above to proceed. To start viewing messages,
select the forum that you want to visit from the selection below.

Please review the Forum Rules frequently as we are constantly trying to improve the forum for our members and visitors.

imported post

Onthe 31st, my wife and I went on a double date with a couple of friends and we went out to dinner at Olive Garden and then to a movie at the Carmike Ritz 15. After dinner, my friend's date finally realized that I was carrying and asked the usual questions. She didn't seem to interested, but wasn't objectionable to the idea of normal people carrying firearms.

We talked for a little while and then went to see a movie at the Carmike 12. When we got there, they told us that the movie had already started, but at the 15 across town, there was another showing of the same movie that we would be able to catch. (A little background: I generally avoid going to the Carmike 15 as I used to work there a long time ago, and my brother still works there) But we agreed that was the best course and went to the 15. After purchasing our tickets, I was talking to the General Manager and one of the Security personnel, who didn't say anything about my firearm. After getting into the theater and sitting down, that same security guard walked up to me and we had the following conversation

Security:"Excuse me, are you carrying a piece."

Me:"Yes, sir. I am."

Security:"You can't do that."

Me: "I amfully withinthe law by carrying a firearm openly."

Security: "But this is private property."

Me: "I didn't see any 'No Firearms' signs and neither you or the General Manager previously indicated that this was a problem."

Security: "It's scaring our customers."

Me: "I understand that many people feel skiddish around weapons. I carry for my protection, the protection of my family, and everyone around me, regardless if they're skiddish around guns or not."

Security: "Well we received a complaint from a man and his son who saw you in the bathroom with it."

Me: "I haven't gone into your restrooms tonight."

Security: "But it's against our company policy. Will you leave your weapon in your vehicle."

Me: "It doesn't do anybody any good in the car. If I were to leave it there, would you take responsibility if it was stolen."

Security: "No..."

Me: "I guarantee you that the safest place for this firearm is where it is right now."

Security: "Then I'm going to have to ask you to leave."

Me: "Very well, I will comply. Please expect a formal complaint to be delivered to Carmike Cinemas, as well as a request for a clarification of their policies."

I emailed the Carmike Cinemas corporate office and have spoken with a manager and have received no replies yet.

imported post

Cadet Higham wrote:

Onthe 31st, my wife and I went on a double date with a couple of friends and we went out to dinner at Olive Garden and then to a movie at the Carmike Ritz 15. After dinner, my friend's date finally realized that I was carrying and asked the usual questions. She didn't seem to interested, but wasn't objectionable to the idea of normal people carrying firearms.

We talked for a little while and then went to see a movie at the Carmike 12. When we got there, they told us that the movie had already started, but at the 15 across town, there was another showing of the same movie that we would be able to catch. (A little background: I generally avoid going to the Carmike 15 as I used to work there a long time ago, and my brother still works there) But we agreed that was the best course and went to the 15. After purchasing our tickets, I was talking to the General Manager and one of the Security personnel, who didn't say anything about my firearm. After getting into the theater and sitting down, that same security guard walked up to me and we had the following conversation

Security:"Excuse me, are you carrying a piece."

Me:"Yes, sir. I am."

Security:"You can't do that."

Me: "I amfully withinthe law by carrying a firearm openly."

Security: "But this is private property."

Me: "I didn't see any 'No Firearms' signs and neither you or the General Manager previously indicated that this was a problem."

Security: "It's scaring our customers."

Me: "I understand that many people feel skiddish around weapons. I carry for my protection, the protection of my family, and everyone around me, regardless if they're skiddish around guns or not."

Security: "Well we received a complaint from a man and his son who saw you in the bathroom with it."

Me: "I haven't gone into your restrooms tonight."

Security: "But it's against our company policy. Will you leave your weapon in your vehicle."

Me: "It doesn't do anybody any good in the car. If I were to leave it there, would you take responsibility if it was stolen."

Security: "No..."

Me: "I guarantee you that the safest place for this firearm is where it is right now."

Security: "Then I'm going to have to ask you to leave."

Me: "Very well, I will comply. Please expect a formal complaint to be delivered to Carmike Cinemas, as well as a request for a clarification of their policies."

I emailed the Carmike Cinemas corporate office and have spoken with a manager and have received no replies yet.

Wow. That's sad.

Here comes a "tricky" question though.

If a person DOES NOT have a CFP and goes into a Dark Area such as a Movie Theater. Is the gun "concealed" from the Public due to the fact that they CANNOT see it. The seat covers it from the side.

Just some thoughts. Although I have been told by my wife that it's bad for me to think

imported post

TJ, I've asked myself the same question. When I go donate plasma twice a week I think about this because I usually put a coat over me because I get cold and that coat, along with the arm rest, cover my gun. Even without a coat it is covered. So I just leave it in the car. Now as for the movie theater, I don't know. I would "personally" say no, it is still in plain view even with the seat, but that is just me. I haven't done it yet so I don't know.

That is too bad about that theater but good just stating that is was legal carry and staying cool. Keep us updated. By the way, did you get a refund?

imported post

Cadet Higham wrote:

Me: "I didn't see any 'No Firearms' signs and neither you or the General Manager previously indicated that this was a problem."

I think you did well with one exception. Please folks do NOT encourage, even tacitly, anyone to be posting signs. They carry no legal weight in Utah anyway other than on private homes and houses of worship.

If a business tells you your gun is not welcome, do not mention signs at all. Ask for a manager. Ask for a refund. Be polite. Don't give anyone any cause to cite disorderly conduct, trespass, disturbing the peace, or otherwise.

Politely tell them you were unaware of their policy, but now that you are aware of it you will certainly be sure to refrain from violating in the future because you will be taking your business elsewhere and encouraging Utah's other gun owners to do likewise.

We are VERY fortunate that signs in most locations do not carry legal weight in Utah. So if we miss one--for whatever reason--we have not actually violated any laws. And if nobody notices, we can keep a gun handy in many places where it would otherwise be illegal if signs and private policies carried legal weight. For those with permits, this is a huge deal. There are times when concealing and having a gun legally at hand is better than having to choose between being unarmed and violation of the law.

Let's not give the business community reason to start demanding such signs. Rather, let's keep them on the defensive by supporting parking lot preemption and other laws.

Again, generally good job.

Charles

All experience hath shewn, that mankind are more disposed to suffer, while evils are sufferable, than to right themselves by abolishing the forms to which they are accustomed. Thank heaven we do not permit a few to impose anarchy.

"With Anarchy as an aim and as a means, Communism becomes possible."
--Marxist.org

"Communism and Anarchy [are], a necessary complement to one another. "
--PETER KROPOTKIN, "Anarchism: its philosophy and ideal." 1898.

imported post

utbagpiper wrote:

Cadet Higham wrote:

Me: "I didn't see any 'No Firearms' signs and neither you or the General Manager previously indicated that this was a problem."

I think you did well with one exception. Please folks do NOT encourage, even tacitly, anyone to be posting signs. They carry no legal weight in Utah anyway other than on private homes and houses of worship.

If a business tells you your gun is not welcome, do not mention signs at all. Ask for a manager. Ask for a refund. Be polite. Don't give anyone any cause to cite disorderly conduct, trespass, disturbing the peace, or otherwise.

Politely tell them you were unaware of their policy, but now that you are aware of it you will certainly be sure to refrain from violating in the future because you will be taking your business elsewhere and encouraging Utah's other gun owners to do likewise.

We are VERY fortunate that signs in most locations do not carry legal weight in Utah. So if we miss one--for whatever reason--we have not actually violated any laws. And if nobody notices, we can keep a gun handy in many places where it would otherwise be illegal if signs and private policies carried legal weight. For those with permits, this is a huge deal. There are times when concealing and having a gun legally at hand is better than having to choose between being unarmed and violation of the law.

Let's not give the business community reason to start demanding such signs. Rather, let's keep them on the defensive by supporting parking lot preemption and other laws.

Again, generally good job.

Charles

Nicely said, Charles. Wow... another Charles... there is two of us! RUN!

imported post

utbagpiper wrote:

Cadet Higham wrote:

Me: "I didn't see any 'No Firearms' signs and neither you or the General Manager previously indicated that this was a problem."

I think you did well with one exception. Please folks do NOT encourage, even tacitly, anyone to be posting signs. They carry no legal weight in Utah anyway other than on private homes and houses of worship.

If a business tells you your gun is not welcome, do not mention signs at all. Ask for a manager. Ask for a refund. Be polite. Don't give anyone any cause to cite disorderly conduct, trespass, disturbing the peace, or otherwise.

Politely tell them you were unaware of their policy, but now that you are aware of it you will certainly be sure to refrain from violating in the future because you will be taking your business elsewhere and encouraging Utah's other gun owners to do likewise.

We are VERY fortunate that signs in most locations do not carry legal weight in Utah. So if we miss one--for whatever reason--we have not actually violated any laws. And if nobody notices, we can keep a gun handy in many places where it would otherwise be illegal if signs and private policies carried legal weight. For those with permits, this is a huge deal. There are times when concealing and having a gun legally at hand is better than having to choose between being unarmed and violation of the law.

Let's not give the business community reason to start demanding such signs. Rather, let's keep them on the defensive by supporting parking lot preemption and other laws.

Again, generally good job.

Charles

I have heard this said many times, and unless I hear a very convincing reason I still disagree. I want every business that does not want me armed to post a sign. I would rather see the sign and take my business elsewhere without having any confrontation or worse, having the cops called. I would then follow up with a letter to the business indicating why I did not patronize them and include a receipt of the business I did patronize.

I don't understand the desire to patronize a business that does not support your rights. I want these businesses to be easy to spot so I can avoid them.

imported post

asforme wrote:

I have heard this said many times, and unless I hear a very convincing reason I still disagree. I want every business that does not want me armed to post a sign. I would rather see the sign and take my business elsewhere without having any confrontation or worse, having the cops called. I would then follow up with a letter to the business indicating why I did not patronize them and include a receipt of the business I did patronize.

I don't understand the desire to patronize a business that does not support your rights. I want these businesses to be easy to spot so I can avoid them.

Easy to spot yes... but it is Easy to see how it has progressed in other states. First the signs are there to warn you not to carry, then soon tresspassing charges start to stick, finally a law is passed that makes the signslegal, and you can lose your permit by going into a store regardless on if you even saw the sign. More and more companies will put up signs if they carry any weight, pretty soon your permit is worthless.

imported post

Maybe that's the difference, I don't consider it my right to carry on the property of someone who doesn't want it. I consider it my responsibility to preserve those rights by staying off the property.

Personally I don't disagree with signs carrying legal weight, as long as the law specifies that the sign be very obvious and at every possible entrance.

Yes, it means I may have less places where I can shop and do business, but it will also mean businesses have less customers. I like to let the invisible hand of economics work out these issues. Once businesses start hurting for money, they'll welcome our business. As it is we continue to give money to them while they continue to refuse to support our rights.

What's worse, being forbidden to be in a place where you're not wanted, or continuing to give money to someone who doesn't want you?

I will continue to encourage every business that does not want my firearm there to post the largest most obnoxious victim disarmament zone signs they can buy.

imported post

Maybe that's the difference, I don't consider it my right to carry on the property of someone who doesn't want it. I consider it my responsibility to preserve those rights by staying off the property.

Personally I don't disagree with signs carrying legal weight, as long as the law specifies that the sign be very obvious and at every possible entrance.

Yes, it means I may have less places where I can shop and do business, but it will also mean businesses have less customers. I like to let the invisible hand of economics work out these issues. Once businesses start hurting for money, they'll welcome our business. As it is we continue to give money to them while they continue to refuse to support our rights.

What's worse, being forbidden to be in a place where you're not wanted, or continuing to give money to someone who doesn't want you?

I will continue to encourage every business that does not want my firearm there to post the largest most obnoxious victim disarmament zone signs they can buy.

Only something like 5% of people in Utah have CHP Permits, so even if every last one of us stoppedshopping inthese places that is a small number. We do not have the pull to make most businesses change.

I think if you open up your private business to the public then it becomes a public place subject to public laws. If you want to make rules like "no guns" or “no red shirts" then adopt a membership based clientele like Costco. But if any old Joe off the street can walk in then any old Joe with a legally carried open gun can walk in.

imported post

Personally I don't disagree with signs carrying legal weight, as long as the law specifies that the sign be very obvious and at every possible entrance.

Given the choice, do you actually WANT signs to be legally enforceable? If King for a day in a place where signs don't have legal weight, would you pass a law giving it to them?

I don't believe that I have the right to do anything on someone elses property that the owner doesn't approve of as long as going to that property is optional.

I believe that ignoring any obvious notification of any prohibited behaviors, including notification by signs, should constitute a trespassing offense. If I say no red shirts on my property and you ignore the sign and wear a red shirt, you are trespassing. If I want to leave my property open to hiking, but I say no hunting on my property and you ignore the sign, you are trespassing (this is the fact in most states). If I say no guns on my property, and you carry a gun, you are trespassing. I see no difference in these previous three examples.

I also do not have an ends justifies the means mentality. The fact that it may make life harder for gunowners does not override property rights in my opinion.

imported post

asforme wrote:

I believe that ignoring any obvious notification of any prohibited behaviors, including notification by signs, should constitute a trespassing offense. If I say no red shirts on my property and you ignore the sign and wear a red shirt, you are trespassing.

imported post

Okay, to get this train back on the tracks.

Cadet Higham wrote:

Yeah, my brother works there as amanager, and he got my ticket refunded after I called him that night.

What did your brother have to say about the incident? I assume you told him about it. Being a manager he should have an understanding of the policy. From the OP it sounds like the security person wasn't really sure seeing as he saw you and said nothing, then asked you to leave.

imported post

My brother doesn't know of any policies that Carmike has regarding firearms. He referenced the employee handbook, and didn't find anything. His opinion as a manager was that if someone else did complain, he would have asked me to conceal it. If not, there wouldn't be a problem.

IMO, the security guard was trying to enforce his opinion, and personally felt uncomfortable with me carrying.

imported post

As I sit back and ponder thought, it is difficult to understand why so many of you are so "wrapped up" in "open carrying"??? The fact that I CAN carry openly, doesn't mean that I go everywhere with my firearm in the open! Why do so many of you choose to do this? Why are there sooooomany of you guys posting your latest "RUN-INS"with either a law enforcement official, or a business owner???I carry EVERYDAY. I have NEVER been asked to leaveANY establishment. Why? I don'tpublicly "display" my firearm. Can I display it? SURE! It would seem that the ONLY people carryingin the open, are those that DESIRE ATTENTION. Ormaybe those actually seeking confrontation. The guy with asmall bulge under his t-shirt is not going to be asked to leave a store. Don't get me wrong, with regards to all of our"rights and freedoms". I fully support them. I served more than 20 years active duty in the Marine Corps, defending our rights.I think that all this "testing" of"WHICH BUSINESS IS GOING TO THROW ME OUT NEXT?" is crazy!!! Why is it that you don't ever see an off-duty police officer carrying his off-dutyfirearm out in the open?Probably, because he HAS NO NEED TO DRAW ANY ATTENTION TO HIMSELF!YOU ALL seem tohave this need. Is this TRULY a forum of people JUST desiring to EXERCISE THEIR RIGHTS? Or is it an "EGO" thing? You don't have a CFP? Get one!If you already have a CFP, then put your shirt over your cool looking GUN!!!! Try this for a while, and I bet nobody will ever say ANYTHING to you again. But then, I guess, there would be NOTHING to discuss here in the FORUM! I ran a business in Weber County for a couple years. If a person came into my establishment "displaying" a firearm, I would ask them if they had a CFP. If they did not, I asked them to leave. Private Property. "MY PROPERTY". No loss of income. At least, with a CFP, your butt is documented with BCI. I'm ok with that. Otherwise, I'm gonna be the only one on MY property with a gun! It's also your right to protest in public. BUT NOT ON MY PROPERTY! Stop seeking attention and complaining about establishments that ask you to leave---- PULL YOUR SHIRT OVER YOUR WEAPON. CArry in the open? EXPECT ATTENTION-- FOREVER!