Wednesday, February 10, 2010

Healer Hubris

In the continuing adventures of my low level warrior tank, I joined a group today to tank Maraudon's Orange wing. I run the addon RankWatch, which notifies people when they use a lower rank of a spell than their max available. Because all spell ranks cost the same, it's almost always a bad idea to cast a downranked spell now.

Anyways, the druid healer in my group got upset when RankWatch told him he should be using Abolish Poison instead of Cure Poison. He told me that he put me on his ignore list.

On the next trash pack, I somehow died, even though the healer was at full mana. Cutting my losses, I leave the group.

After waiting 5 minutes for my Dungeon Finder timer to wear off, I rejoin the queue. I get put back into the same group I left, leading to this exchange:

I don't really know why he thought I would want to tank for a healer who deliberately let me die. That just sounds like a terrible idea.

Lately, I've seen a lot of forum and blog posts about healers abusing their healing power. Letting DPS who've annoyed them die "to teach them a lesson". Reveling in the fact that because their role is somewhat rare, that gives them the right to act like a jerk.

In my opinion, if you sign up as a healer, you heal as best you can. Triage as appropriate, but you don't let people die if you can help it, regardless of how annoying they are.

If someone is truly too annoying to play with, leave the group. Don't act like a petty tyrant.

Yes, that particular healer was a dick. Being told to use Abolish Poison instead of Cure Poison is no reason to let a tank die.

But when the DPS is pulling for the tank, or continually pulling aggro, or standing in a fire, and just not caring about playing well because you, as a healer, can heal them through it, the best thing to do is to let them die, to teach them that they have a hand in their survival as well.

In my opinion, it's not that healing through standing in a fire is necessarily difficult (although sometimes it can be), it's that healers don't like being taken for granted: the idea that the DPS can do whatever silly thing they want and the healer will automatically heal them through it. It's the same with rezzing everyone after a wipe or healing a Life-Tapped Warlock; it's not really hard to do, but it's incredibly rankling to have it be taken for granted that that's what will happen, especially since normally it's easy for the other members of the party to miss the fluctuations in their health until you mess up and they die.

That guy is a moron, but I have to say I also get annoyed by rankwatch while leveling. There is hardly any need to train for new spells every 1, or 2 levels, especially with the ease of all content these days. It slows leveling down significantly (unless you're a mage or druid, so he can't use that excuse) for an insignificant performance boost. Effectively all rankwatch does while leveling is give the group a free pass to blame before things even go wrong and show your distrust in his abilities automatically.

Just turn it off untill you do 80 content and only use it as personal feedback in case things don't go smoothly. Even the author starts his explanation with this line:

"RankWatch will monitor the spells cast by you and other level 80 members of your party or raid and warn them if they are using a downranked spell."

Having said that, letting the tank die as healer is about as smart as driving your car into a cliff to get back at your passenger.

For the begging i would like to say that, indeed, that healer was a moron, BUT i did a lot of dungeons lately whit the same healer ( a guildie) and every time the DPS was pulling before me, or pulling something else (a new pack of moobs) the healer was playing ping pong with him. SHe healed them at 20-30 % and after one or two moments they would not pull again, ar they watche what they are doing. Sometimes the DPS died, she was busy healing myself. There are things that you can do and you dont have a right to do, as a healer and letting your tank die its a big NO NO. imho.

As a healer you should always do your best to heal your party or raid - it a really bad habit to get into to be second guessing yourself and withholding heals just because you think someone is playing wrongly - and at the end of the day it hurts you as much as them to let someone die who you could have healed, it might be a differnece between a wipe and finishing and moving on tothe next boss / instance

* he pulled aggro, and if I heal him, I might pull too (the PuG tank not surely notice that one add is missing)* the whole party needs healing (typically on bad pulls) and I'd rather save the tank, or myself than some DPS* his DPS is so low, that we are better off if I DPS myself than heal him* If he is pulling, we are definitely better 4 man than with him. I simply leave him dead and tell the party to 4-man it. Not even the most socials have anything against killing a puller* he is in the fire. He must learn that fire hurts. With the overgeared healers new players may not even notice that there is fire in the game. They should.

New 80 healer here. I let the tank die once. He was incredibly arrogant, which is annoying but I can live with it, but then when I asked him to stop for mana, he said "whatever, I don't need heals to tank this trash anyway."

Gotta tell ya, nothing burns people like being told they're unnecessary. Just ask a dps. I'm not the kind of person who lets people die normally, but that jerkface needed to be taught a lesson. On the next pull, I watched his health plunge to 10% before I started healing. I pointed out that he clearly needed me then, he said "notice I still have all my CD's champ ;)".

I think everyone in the party knew what was coming on the next pull, because they seemed pretty well prepared for it. He cried about it for a while, said I broke his shield (way to come prepared, wanker), called me a fa66ot, put me on ignore, but I can guarantee you this, he was aware of my presence for the rest of the instance.

While I would tend to agree with you here, there are perfectly acceptable instances to let people die. The main one being if they are being detrimental to the group as a whole. I let pullers die once, hoping they learn that I will not heal them if they pull ahead of the tank. Once they are rezzed, if they do it again they die and I will not rez them. Tanks who pull without checking for mana, or who pull after I say I need mana(mainly for my Druid, as my Pally no longer has mana issues in heroics), I have no problem letting die. But to let people who are just acting like general asshats, no I can't see letting them die.

I abuse the powers of my role all the time if I think it's warranted. If I'm tanking and some douche ignore my kill targets repeatedly I simply stop taunting off him and keep pulling so the healer never gets out of combat.

People are idiots, especially those in pugs. A little triage can make for a happy run.

I tried to let my tank die on the last boss in Old Kingdom but he lived with 483 health.

My server has been suffering from terrible loading screens. I zone into the instance and the tank is at 10% health and is already a far ways into the instance. He dies before I make it to him but I keep the rest of the group alive and rez him. He then calls me a fail healer.

I tell him he should watch what his party is doing but he only says, "fail healer" again.

Yes it was petty and it didn't even work but for some reason I was enraged.

Wiping groups or letting people die needs to achieve something substantial and immediate or it really can't be justified. That said, the bar is much lower for stuff like Mara because it can be 2 manned easily (ideally with a tank and healer) if you are grouped with jerks or morons.

Once you're 80, if you can heal something without a tank (moderately easy) or tank something with out a healer (more difficult and very slow unless a hybrid can spot heal you), then there's really no room to pull the prima donna crap that Rainwhisper did.

But man, it sure feels nice to boot a tank who was a jerk for the entire run and right before you successfully 4 man the last boss in 40 seconds.

Because I mostly heal in Heroics now a days (dont like the 20 min que as dps, my main spec), I disagree with you on some of the things you said.

I never withhold heals because I feel I am a pompus ass.

The simple fact of the matter is that *I* am healing. I am doing my best to keep you, and everyone in the group, alive. However, you are standing in the fire. You are making my job infintely harder than it should be. I am doing my best. Why can't you as well?

This is especially true for DPS that cant wait for the tank to pull and run ahead, pull, then complain when they die from a 1 or 2 shot. I will give them one warning. If it was an accidental pull, I will let them slide. But if they keep doing it, keep making my tank, my surviving dps, and my job harder just because *you* dont want to wait for the tank to mana/wait for cooldowns is just bing a plain ass. Why do I have to work so hard for you to just be an ass to me, and the rest of the group?

And on your comment about leaving, I disagree as well. Why do I, who am busting my ass for the rest of the group, have to leave and take the 15 minute debuff, when I could probably 4 man this instance and be done in 10?

On my fury warrior, I practically off-tank every trash pull, but my healers don't mind b/c I'm pushing the DPS to get us out of the random heroic faster. I can understand letting DPS die for standing in the poison cloud, but you're really going to let them die for pulling off the tank in a 5-man? You've got one assignment, and that's to heal, not "tech people a lesson". Hell, healers aren't even necessary anymore for most of the heroics. 5-mans are a joke, if we can go in w/ a ret pally and/or an spriest, we don't even take a healer.

If I'm tanking and some DPS pulls off me in a 5-man on the same mob I'm attacking, either I'm not doing my job or that guy is doing his really well. Either way, I'm not going to let him die, and neither should the healer.

At this point in time, most players who pull off the tank (as opposed to pulling FOR the tank) are bad players. Tank AoE threat generation is solid enough that for a DPS to pull off the tank:

A) the DPS is stunningly good

B) the tank is stunningly bad

C) the DPS is doing things he shouldn't, like completely ignoring kill order or opening up while the tank is still trying to LoS mobs or something.

I personally think C) is the most common and a sign of a bad player. Yeah, heroics are really easy right now, so if the tank STILL thinks he needs to mark a kill order, he probably has a reason and I think people should listen.

Truth thats a bold statement. Your healers don't mind? So far the healers have predominantly commented that they mind when dps pulls aggro. interesting that as a dps and a tank you have such an insightful view of the healer. I am a healer, I mind. You're right, my job is to heal. However your job is to maximise damage, but WITHOUT pulling aggro. Apparently you're not doing your job, why should they cover for you?

However if the tank is an asshat i would rather leave than let them die. There should be a sense of trust between healers and tanks, not resentment. If you piss the tank off he will carry that into other group, and foster a vicious cycle.

btw anyone one who stands in the fire should die. Apparently they learn better if you let them die. Who knew.

I wouldn't let somebody die for that, although I might ask you to turn it off. That would be annoying as hell in a <lvl80 context.

I would (and do) totally let people die intentionally all the time, not for being assholes in chat though, only for doing things that cause problems in the run.

If a dps pulls a group when I'm tanking or healing, and we are close enough to the instance portal, I run out of the instance and let the group wipe. Usually gets the point across.

That includes unintentional body pulls that are the result of stupidity. If you don't have stealth and don't stay behind the tank before the pull, you are being a moron and deserve to die. What is with the fetish people have of getting right up close to the mobs when the healer is drinking or the tank is stopping to explain something in chat (like a LoS pull warning)? Stay behind the tank people! If you are lower level than the tank? stay *way* behind the tank. If I'm tanking and you think I'm standing farther back than I need to, well I hope you're right, or that you can tank that pull.

I let people die when they do stupid things. Things that fall under stupid are attacking the wrong target, standing in cleaves (whirlwinds I am more forgiving of,) or pulling for the tank. The reason I do this, is that I have tried to keep morons up before, then the tank regains aggro suddenly, and I am instantly behind on healing him, and the tank dies. So, I let the moron dps die, the tank regains aggro, and we are better for it. I then explain what they did that was dumb, and if they learn, good, if they whine, they are probably never going to be any good, so hopefully they ignore me. Mine is full.

The thing is, Rohan's post was not at all about EoF or anything like that. It was about his opinion that healers should do all they can to heal everyone in the group regardless of what the rest of the group is doing. The comments then focused on situations where the DPS is playing badly, because you want them to stop playing badly and they are never going to learn unless they die.

I know that it wasn't about EoF. But there isn't any fire before level 80. And even there it doesn't hurt. The "standing in a fire" is a raid thing.

And letting the DPS die doesn't make them learn. That's just bullshit. There is a reason why they don't move out of the fire. Either they don't care or didn't notice. Letting them die neither teaches them better situational awareness nor can you force them to play the way you want them to play. People who don't care about standing in fire on purpose don't care about the additional load it puts on the healer.

Anyway, I probably shouldn't comment what Rohan wanted to say. He can do that best himself. :)

But I know that it is very very annoying to tank for a healer you can't trust. It's very unfun if you have to make sure that your healer is prepared for the pull on every pull. I'm not talking about mana or buffs or when the healer has to ress someone. These are things I can see. I'm talking about the healer who is watching TV, probably sports. A tank will notice very fast if the healer is watching TV. And over a heroic run it means the tank will most likely die once. Believe me, it' s very unfunny if, with every pull, you wait until the first heal hits you because you're unsure if the healer is watching a slow motion of a goal or not. I assume these sucky healers are DPS who queue as heal for shorter queue time and think they can slack the same way they do as dps.

Therefore, it's very silly if a healer thinks you'll tank for him ever again after he let you die on purpose.

I hate HATE Rankwatch. I hate it at 80, but I hate it even worse before that.

It spams up a big long message on my chat box that I don't have time to read cause I'm in combat. Half the time I think it's important (GM related) because most of my tells are, so I stop to read it anddddd...

someone dies.

Normally, pulling RankWatch on me is an automatic ticket to my ignore list.

Would I let you die? No. But I'm not letting your addon distract me until I die anyway.

I would only let someone die if they repeatedly ignored a reasonable request and were warned that I was going to stop healing them if they didn't at least acknowledge it, or if by healing I was putting myself in danger of dying, and I've never intentionally let a TANK die except for when told my services are unnecessary and superfluous. Then I take that as an invitation to relax... they don't need me right?

Why does your level 80 char still have downranked spells after you've grouped with a person who had RankWatch installed? You're now aware of this WoW bug and know how to fix it.

Please, put me on ignore, I'm not really interested in playing with persons who can't even pull their highest rank spells on their action bar after they've been told that their setup has an issue. :)

If I read the web page correct RankWatch only informs you if you're something like 10 level behind on a not 80 char. Therefore that should be fixed, even for not 80 chars. Because that's the range where downrank penalties start to kick in.

I leveled my resto-shaman only through dungeons and the occassional cooking/fishing daily while waiting for the dungeon. I never let anyone die on purpose to teach them a lesson but I might not rez them if I find them annoying.

That one time, I frostshocked a runner-add to slow it down. Apparently I "forgot" to learn the last 2 ranks because I'm a healer and of course someone had rankwatch active and filled my chat-window with whisper-spam. People that use it pre-80 are so on my ignore-list... It is like expecting to run around in a endgame-raid-spec while leveling.

Or you just drag the highest rank out of your spell book and say "thank you".

It's like if someone mentions to you that your left rear break light is broken. You either say "thank you for letting me know, I'll fix it next chance" or you say "gtfo you noob, I can break without my light. Are you expecting me to take care of my car as if this would be a F1 race? You are so on my /ignore."

I tend to agree with Kring. RankWatch might be annoying, but it's being annoying while trying to be helpful.

GearScore Divas are annoying - and they aren't even helpful about it.

Not applying a talent is the height of laziness. Not training every other level is only slightly less lazy - ESPECIALLY if you are (like Pazi said) leveling exclusively using the Dungeon Finder. If you aren't out in the world questing, you are in a city. And if you are in a city, you can go train!

On topic of this post: I tend to agree with Rohan - as a healer it is my job to heal. It doesn't matter if people are being assholes. It doesn't matter if the DPS is abysmally low. I signed up to do this job, and that's the job I'm going to do. If the situation is so bad that I might consider letting someone die - by not doing my part - then I would be better off just leaving the group, and any drama / frustration, behind.

There are times when I intentionally downrank. For no other reason than cast time reduction.

My mage has a low ranked frostbolt on her bar. With her haste rating, it casts at about the speed of the global cooldown. I don't care that it hits like a feather, I just want to slow the runner to 60% *NOW*.

It is only situational? Yes. I hardly ever use it, but when it's needed, it's there. It's carefully chosen and having some addon say "Update your spells noob." would certainly be annoying.

I haven't run with a tank that marked a kill order in heroics since...BC? And while AoE DPS is much better, I can pretty routinely pull off the tank at the start of a fight by opening up w/ cleave/whirlwind. But it's not a problem since the healers are competent enough to heal more than just the tank, and the tank is smart enough to taunt them back.

@Firespirit

That's pretty much the the only reasons to let DPS die. If you need to triage and sacrifice me for the tank's health, do it. I do my best to watch how well a healer is keeping up, but every now and then I'll just have to go for the big numbers and pull off the tank when the healer is struggling just to keep the tank alive. If I die, that's my fault. If I pull, and the healer is just sitting there letting me die because "DPS isn't supposed to pull off the tank!", then that's his fault.

@Jorani

I should have clarified, that's w/ guild healers. But why do you mind when DPS pulls aggro? Because it puts the group at risk? I can tell you right now that I've never caused a wipe in a heroic by pulling. Because your healing assignment is harder? If you can keep them up while they can maximize their DPS, why not do it? Because you want to "teach them a lesson"? How about instead you just do your job and keep everyone alive? God forbid you have to heal more than one target. Maybe the lesson that needs to be learned is that in order to maximize DPS, the healers have to be willing to do more than just /follow the tank and cast HoT spam.

In a 5-man, my job isn't to maximize damage without pulling threat. My job is to maximize damage and finish off the tank's pulls as fast as possible. If the healer is offended that I'm temporarily pulling off the DK tank for the first 2 seconds of a fight and lets me die, then he's a bad healer.

If I'm running with an overgeared tank with 50k+ health and I've got 35k+ health, you really think I'm putting the group at risk by going full out on DPS at the start?

So you can't be bothered to heal someone outside of combat because it's not "battle damage"? How do you think they got that damage in the first place? Even the warlock, it's faster for him to lifetap than to drink.

See, that was part of my point. Heroics are easy enough that almost always there is no need to mark anymore, so if the tank goes out of his way to mark a kill order, he probably has a reason.

I think we need to distinguish more explicitly between pulling OFF a tank and pulling FOR a tank.

Pulling off a tank happens when the tank aggros a group of mobs and a DPS starts his AoE and pulls off a mob that the tank hasn't solidly gotten threat on yet, and usually that's fine because the DPS can Ice Block or Feign Death or take a hit or two before the tank taunts the mob back.

Pulling for the tank happens when the DPS goes and pulls the next group of mobs, fully expecting the tank to save them and trying to force the tank to speed up the run. Generally I don't like this because I like going through the instance at the pace the tank feels comfortable, and if he wants to wait a couple of seconds for his Runes or his CDs, then I'm fine with that.

There are two issues with what healers generally find unacceptable behavior from a DPS, and they're sort of interconnected.

The first is that healing is reactive, so how hard we have to work depends on how much damage the party is taking. So usually, the extra damage is from a DPS playing lazily or playing badly, so when DPS slack, the healer has to work harder.

The second is that most of these things ARE the DPS playing badly, and right now, the heroics are so easy and the healers so overgeared that we can, in fact, usually manage to heal DPS through standing in the fire. But once we get to the point where we are once again at the point where keeping the tank up is difficult, then a DPS standing in the fire is going to die regardless of anything the healer does, and then the DPS will be like "why couldn't you keep me up? healers should be able to".

That's why the phrase is always "let the DPS die," because healers CAN heal the DPS through bad playing, but that just means they'll keep playing badly and eventually one day we won't be able to keep all the bad DPS AND the tank alive through the AoE. Healers just notice bad playing first, usually, because bad playing tends to directly increase healing stress immediately.

You're right, we're talking about two different types of pulling. It sounds like you're talking about irresponsible DPS (early pulling, not getting out of the fire, etc).

I can see letting people die, especially if they aren't listening to advice about how to not get their face burnt off.

@Kring

First time I tanked ICC 10, Rankwatch notified me that I was using the wrong level of Devastate. It never even occurred to me that by not visiting a trainer in my off-spec I wouldn't have the highest rank of my abilities, which makes complete sense.

Truth, that's why we have RankWatch. These things happen. If they wouldn't, no one would have taken the time to write such an add-on.

But it's the wrong thing to nerd rage about that and put the person who informed you on ignore. And I'm quite sure you just updated the spell on your action bar and were glad that you'll now do more threat than before for free. :)

I have absolutely let my tank die for lack of heals. When I say I need mana and you go charging in and pull a group anyway, that'll just about do it for me! That being said unless people aren't being total d-bags, your job is to heal and I will do it to the best of my abilities every pug.

However, as a healer, I fully reseve the right to let some ... unpleasant toon get the ... brown stuff he so desperately deseves.

If there is a DPS pulling when the tank/healer are sitting, or after several requests to change your behavior, you will not get heals or rez from me. That said, I will also refuse to run with you again.

What an absolute ass hat. I would sooner leave the instance if I was offended by what a tank or dps did then not heal (not that I would be in this situation as a main spec healer). Giving the group a wait time for another healer is far more effective than letting them die.

On the other hand, whilst leveling my pally in instances I have let a few dps die for pulling for me. Ive got one rule in my groups, we go at mine and healers pace. If YOU pull YOU tank. What people need to understand is that the tank / healer in the pug was probably dpsing quests previously and will need to get their head back into their role.

Is it that difficult to ask a tank if they could speed up? If they arnt able to they will tell u why. And if your not happy with it then you leave.

As my healer is way overgeared for hcs I allways tell the tank to keep pulling till I say too much. if a dps dosnt watch their agro then that's a bad dps. One quick vote kick usually sorts them out.

Kring - jeez you answer every comment? I do, on principle, put everyone on ignore that spams me with unrequested addon spam. I even did it to one of my guild officers when he refused the spam function of his wintergrasp announcer addon.

As for Rank Watch in particular, I have two 80s, one of them was server transferred and had a long abandoned dual spec. She encountered rank watch twice. On two different spells in the same run, which I couldn't help, since the gogogo tank would have left me very far behind if I'd stopped to fiddle around in my spellbook. Ironic, since it was his rankwatch spam.

My second 80 healer encountered it last week while farming the valentines bosses. We were three manning so I was dusting off LONG unused DPS spells. Boom Rank Watch > distracted healer > wipe > lost summon.

I let stupid dps die when I'm a healer. The tank has to live, or we all die. We need one or two of those dps or I may run out of mana for heals and we'll die anyway. But that one moron that just pulled for the tank? Nah, that moron can freaking die.

I had two healers this weekend let me, as the tank, die because the dps needed heals from doing stupid crap. Healer's mana, 80%. Tank's health, -2.75%.

I do occasionally let people die as a healer/tank but it's pretty exclusively dps that are behaving in such a way that consistently makes the run more difficult for the rest of us. e.g. Pulling aggro on mobs they can't effectively tank/kite, dps that deliberately taunt, people who run los, etc.

As for Rankwatch, I don't mind the idea of watching and alerting people to downranking, but any mod that automatically sends tells without prompting from the user or tell recipient is fairly obnoxious in my mind. I wouldn't mind nearly as much if rankwatch just displayed the results to the user, or told the downranker once the group had dropped combat. But unsolicited mid-fight spam would probably get people on my ignore list too.

I'm sorry, but if you use rankwatch be prepared to face the consequences. You'll look like a condescending know-it-all nazi arse. I don't care that your addon apologizes for you "oh if this was intended, sowwy wub wub". No, YOU gotta apologize to me. Maybe i'm not interested in what you have to say about my ranks, maybe they are intended, maybe not, maybe i'll cure poison or i'll abolish it, maybe i'll cleanse or maybe i'll purify, it's not you problem if i pull my weight.

Even assuming otherwise makes you a know-it-all condescending scum, and you're everything that's wrong with wow right now, in my opinion. When you see me do 500 dps at level 75 or if you die while i'm your healer, then you have the right to suggest. 'Till then, keep your filth to yourself, i am not interested. I would've done the exact same thing, with the exception that i would've vote kicked you back the moment you came. There is no difference between you and those gear score whores.

Don't take it personally though, mate, it's just that my searing hate knows no bounds, hate for the addons that value someone based on... nothing really.

And if you really care, you should stop the whispers. Keep that knowledge for yourself, you're not doing anyone a favor, only alienating them. It's not because our e-peens shrink when we realize we used consecration rank 7 instead of 8 (yes, it happened to me, while in AV, when i switched from prot to ret, and obviously i had some numbwit's addon whisper me). It's not an epiphany either, oh wow, i should replace rank x with rank y. It just makes you look smug.

I know what you'll say, because it was said to me in that AV "it helped many people deal with the dual spec bug blah blah", ok, it also alienated a lot more, because the moment i see that whisper, I WILL JUDGE YOU. And i will label you a nazi, a guy that likes to bask himself in his glory and knowledge (knowing how to install an addon that is), a guy that enjoys pointing other people's mistakes or playstyle. And i would let you die and rot, because you are not the type i wanna party with.

Another thing the guy in AV told me was "if you read, there's an apology at the end of the message...". So if a god forsaken addon gets installed BY YOUR CHOICE and spams me and apologizes in your name, i should just let it fly ? "Oh, oh, it's ok, his bot just apologized for its master's smugness". Actually, just yesterday a guy had the same addon that spammed me about... don't know what exactly, but he whispered me himself and apologized, and my caps didn't blow up, i appreciated the human touch, y'know ?

Look, yes, your healer was out of line, but you were the one that set him off. I know i went bananas when some guy that doesn't even know what color my char's hair is has the audacity to criticize me. It was in a BG, but if it was a dungeon, man, i'd be so outta there. Nobody likes a wise ass, and i suspect neither do you.

As a Tank and a Healer, I hope to meet you some day and watch you die. I have seen conceited tanks, that think they don't need heals, they die quite quick. I've seen lazy and conceited Healers who think its not worth their time to heal me, or are so incompetent they cant manage it. they get left with their dps while I go chill. To think that its ok to not do your job just because you can, and heroics are easy is.. well a good example of why tanks and healers have such contempt for most dps. Learn your place, behind the tank on threat. and learn your job, kill monsters while not pulling threat from behind.

In a more general sense it has been said before, but they are right I would never group with that guy again because I could never trust them. although at 80 in a random its less of an issue since I can livve quite a long time without a healer (they are very necessary, but it takes longer than expected by most of them to kill a pally rocking 50k health )

That was the most hilarious overreaction to someone trying to help you out I've ever seen. DON'T TELL ME HOW TO PLAY, EVEN THOUGH IT IS OBVIOUS THAT I AM NOT DOING THIS CORRECTLY! The mod whispers you, it's not like it posts in general chat that you're using the wrong rank. The funniest part is that if it hadn't told you, you'd still probably be running around w/ the wrong rank.

I don't really care if you judge me. Also, in that exact scenario you were talking about where you're not using the right rank of consecrate, then you're not pulling your weight. But keep calling people nazis for using Rankwatch, really makes you look like you know what you're doing.

@Tegoelf

As a tank and a DPS, I hope to see you in a group so we can go through the fastest heroic you've ever gone through. Look, it's just how it is in a 5-man, pulls are short, tanks are unkillable, and healers have unlimited mana. If I pull an enemy after the tank has pulled a group, does it really matter? The pull lasts maybe long enough for me to bloodthirst twice.

It's really easy to allow DPS to maximize their damage, even if it results in pulling a mob off the tank. If you're the healer, put beacon on the tank and drop a heal on me. If you're the tank, use your awesome multi-taunt. In return, I'll give you DPS 2x better than the closest pug, only follow the tank's pulls, interrupt obnoxious enemies like spell flingers, and stay out of the damn fire.

Hell, you can even use my ridiculous threat generation to everyone's advantage. In ICC 10, we have a DK tank hold the Lich King for phase 1, and we have a paladin tank hold the horrors at a distance so that they get hit w/ the necrotic plague instead of other raid members. When the Lich King spawns his ghouls, I'm expected to AoE to pick them all up so the paladin tank can multi-taunt them off me. If I can get away with holding 3-4 ghouls in the last 10 man fight in the game, surely it isn't a problem if I pull a mob off the tank in a 5-man, right?

Just to be clear, in a discussion about pugging and etiquette your argument is your guild healers don't mind? Really? (I don't mind healing my guildies either, if they do mind you should find a new guild)

As for groups wiping due to aggro, that has certainly happened, pug heroic halls of reflection 10-20 times, (preferably as a healer) you'll see. To quote you "How about instead you just do your job". Maximise dps without pulling aggro. If you want to tank, then play a tank, if you think you know how healers should heal then be a healer. But if you play dps and don't do your job, then don't complain if i don't do what you think is mine.

"I've got 35k+ health". Good for you, pat yourself on the back. But, um, not everyone else does right? So..., they might die if they follow your advice? So maybe we should get back and discuss the post and not how uber you think you are?

If a dps has earned your emnity why should you have to leave? if they are doing things wrong and not listening, then by all mean "teach them". The reality is if everyone does their job the runs are smother and faster. It also means there is a larger pool of skilled people to choose from. Sometimes they just need to be encouraged.JP.s. if you are hearing crickets while reading a blog, check you pc, if that is ok go see a doctor about tinnitus.

He wasn't trying to help me out. He wasn't doing anything at all. It was all a script. Now, if that message would pop up to him, and he's whisper me personally, aye, i'd appreciate it. But installing such an addon doesn't help me, doesn't make him smarter, doesn't make you smarter. It just makes you scum. You're one of those people that inspect the others when joining an instance and go "oh, what, you have 2 blues ?" "oh, you specced imp. spell reflection ? lol" "omg you have no enchant on gloves" and they make a fuss about how smart they are. And at least that kind of people have the semi-decency to check me out themselves, not have an addon do that for them.

Look, as long as you don't pay for my subscription and i'm pulling my weight (which i am) you have no right to question me. You have no right to whisper me crap. It's spam. That's right, you're one of those "enlarge your penis" e-mails. Unwanted. Awkward. Annoying. Keep it to your guild's raids, don't bring your fascism to a BG or a 5-man, or, if you do, be prepared to be spat on and shat on by anyone that know what they're doing. Yes it happened to me, to spec mutilate and forget to train the ranks, or chaos bolt or whatever, but i saw that for myself, i didn't need some wiseass spamming me.

You're also dead wrong in your reply to Tegoelf, i don't know if you ever tanked, but i did, and you may do 9k dps, i'd vote kick you after the first time you pull without my say-so. I'd rather spend 5 dungeons with newly dinged 80s in crap gear (not having gear seems to bring a certain meekness in people) than have a trigger happy idiot thinking he's the man. I don't care that your mommy is sending you to bed or that you're an important business man that is crashing the stock market while pushing 9k dps, if you're in a hurry, do it alone, you have no business in my group.

It's real easy. Due to your fuck ups a tank or a healer has to work up to 6 times more to keep aggro or keep someone alive. Unless i'm on your payroll, once you do that, once you make my life harder, you're on my shitlist. I just don't care about YOUR time, or why you're in a rush, or how much dps you can push. All i care is that i have a smooth clean run, i'd take that any day over a 5 min clear, and believe you me, i'm not the only one that thinks that way.

The truth (how ironically that you chose that nickname) is that there is no truth but our own. And stating your OPINIONS like they're facts only make you look like a bigger dick than you proved yourself to be. Some people like the priest, some like the priestess, some like quick runs, some don't, but when YOU assume that it's your.. whatever.. sacred duty to spam people over what skills they use, or pulling before the tank, only proves your lack of empathy and your egotism. Now, empathy being the basic human trait on which all society, law and civilization is based upon, i'd say you're not even human... you're filth.

There seems to be some contention over Truth recently. I felt like I should add my two cents.

First, I've explained the difference between pulling OFF a tank and pulling OFF a tank above, and it seems to me that Truth does the former occasionally and the latter never.

(To be clear, I do think it is the DPS' fault when they pull aggro off the tank. Frankly, though, it's not usually one of the things that would cause a healer to "let a DPS die", because if you're lucky they'll drop aggro or the tank will taunt, if you're unlucky the mob will one-shot the poor clothie before anyone can react.)

Kensai, you sound like one of those people who go "Because I pay $15 I can play as badly as I want!" The problem here, and why most people find RankWatch useful, is that using a lower-ranked spell is almost impossible to catch. Not having glove enchants or being (even if crappily) gemmed is something I can see immediately just from your gear, but I can't tell the difference between a Rank 6 or a Rank 7 ability without the help of an addon. Now, I can install just for myself, but an addon that only tells myself which abilities I'm using that are outdated is of limited usefulness, especially considering the many people, like yourself, apparently, who use lower ranked spells and aren't aware of it nor inclined to install an addon that tells them.

In short, because Blizzard has removed almost any benefit from downranking, except in specific cases like Rank 1 Frostbolt, there is no conceivable reason to be reducing your own personal effectiveness by using downranked spells and thus no reason to be offended by being told you should stop using downranked spells, unless you prefer to play badly instead of having people ever tell you you're playing badly.

You can see the gear difference because you have that blasted gear score add on. Or you're a nazi yourself and inspect people. How about, it's not you goddamn business ? How about, i want to dps with a sombrero and a diamond tipped cane and look pimp while i do it ? I had people in toc5 forgetting to switch weapons after the mounted phase and i kept my mouth shut because first and foremost, it was FUNNY. All you people that joined in wotlk seem to forget that WoW is a MMORPG, the key abbreviation here being RPG. Yes, i can do whatever i want, i can get drunk in front of the Orgrimmar bank, FoK my way in heroics, play shockadin in BGs, and there's not a goddamn thing you can do about it. it's my CHOICE. Eight of my ten chars have dual spec and yes, i may miss a rank now and again, but bottom line is, again, i don't need you. Perhaps because when i was getting my krol blade you were still in diapers, and when i was hurling spikes at najentus you barely killed your first murloc.

Do i sound magnanimous, self absorbed, superior, arrogant ? That's exactly what addons like rankwatch and gearscore make you look. I bet when you're organizing pugs (that is, if you ever had the balls to do it) you always ask for gs and achievements. And then your rankwatch and big brother and whatever the fuck other "you didn't whack the mole" add on you have spams the whole raid.

You're everything that's wrong with WoW.

I happen to know when a spell or an ability isn't the right rank, perhaps maybe because i've been playing for some 4-5 years and played every role and every class currently available in the great world of azeroth, and i have a feel for it. I don't let some shitty addon play the game for me. Perhaps you need all those training wheels, i don't.

And for the last time, who the hell died and made you the dorm cop ? Many people, like myself use downranks, right... and along comes the hero anonymous to set things right, fly around the planet in reverse, turns back time and makes us all skilled ! Haa haa, aw man, hide your WoW boner, you're not a hero, you're not special, you're not doing anyone a favor, you're the shitty desk monkey that rejects a form because it was written with black ink instead of blue, the chick at the mall wondering if her ass looks fat in that dress and the whore hound that's whining about not enough ball fondling.

Think about it, if you're literate enough to go to school or competent enough to go to work, there's always some asshole giving advice without being asked "aw, you should smoke less" "oh you're late FOUR WHOLE minutes, are you aware of that ?" "hey, you didn't file form 286-B under the 9Y category" or whatever the hell you get at school or work.. so i'm asking you now, do you like that person ? Do you praise his/her insight/advice/criticism ? Don't write back here, just be sincere to yourself. MAYBE, maybe the asshole has a point, maybe he's right, but isn't it annoying ? OK, and now i want you to imagine that the asshole is busy licking stamps or something, he has no time for you, but he made a lil' robot that tells you all that "your tie knot is all wrong" shit without even taking a look at you. And if you don't feel like beating him up with bricks in a pillowcase, i'm sorry, but you're passive, devoid of all emotion, dead inside and probably doing 200 kmph on the downward spiral.

So ! You all need a nice big cup of STFU and get off your high horses, no one needs you, nobody loves you, 90% of the puggers you meet in your heroics will forget about your existance, 9% will remember you by being annoying elitist pricks and 1% are the same diseased breed like you, and will remember that once in HoS hc, where you skipped 2 bosses because school was starting, you met a like-minded individual that went medieval on everyone else in the group but you, gave advice without being asked to, commented about the horrible state of the game and pugs and wrote in a blog about it. wondering innocently why they didn't appreciate his douchebaggery.

2) Once I healed a ToC 5-man where the tank forgot to unequip his lance until the Black Knight because he was a bear tank, and it was absolutely hilarious.

3) However, when you sign up to do ANY group activity in the game, the people you are grouping with expect some sort of minimal competence. There are lots of stories about people with absolutely ridiculous expectations, but frankly, I'm not one of them. Assuming competent playing, 1.5k DPS is generally fine by me.

4) Clearly you aren't able to tell when you're downranking, since if you weren't, you would never have been messaged by RankWatch.

Look, as long as you don't pay for my subscription and i'm pulling my weight (which i am) you have no right to question me.

Guess you're easily offended. Getting pissed and outraged doesn't help anyone. If you feel offended for having an addon point out your mistakes, don't make them. Else learn to accept that you did make a mistake and correct it. And why would you even get pissed about it? After all the addon is making your dps, healing or tanking better. You don't want to improve?

BTW: Personally I try to keep everyone alive in groups. Mostly because when some dps pulls, the tank feels like taunting them off. And I don't let my tank die unless I'm OOM. If I am playing with a friend of mine who's tanking however, we agree on letting pulling dps die. Witch we do. And they deserve it. You're not speeding up a dungeon by getting people in battle unprepared.

Y'all keep going with your "but yerrrr deeewwing it wruuung !". Case in point, YOU are doing it wrong. If I'm thinking about enlarging my penis, i'll ask my wife if she's satisfied, i'm not gonna click a fucking spam link. So if i do want to improve my dps, tanking or healing, i'll sure as hell won't care what some shitty script just said to me. So there you have it, you're spammers. Even if you could be right, when you do it wrong, your point becomes moot.

And yeeeees, i won't use crap like that because if do want to improve my tanking, healing and dps, i'll do it myself, and my SKILL will improve, not my ADD-ON COLLECTION. You're really missing the point, anonymous. The world of world of warcraft is filled with peppy little youngsters that joined the game somewhere between half-way tbc and last week, and think everything is a race, and you're in the lead.

No, it's not a race. Turn your camera up to the ceiling of VH, if you ever did, see, that ceiling, someone designed it. That's what you should do with your in-game time, not try to be the Overlord, wisest and addon-est of them all. Do your stuff and let people do theirs. That's what the OP missed. He died because of this smug addon. Had he not that addon, it would've probably ended well, a smooth run. It wasn't the tank that fucked it up, nor the healer, nor low dps or overaggro.

It was just a stupid addon that people install to feel better about themselves "oh man, my addon just whispered that noob, i'm so pro !". And it's real annoying to the others that don't appreciate being told what to do, especially by a fucking script.

Blizz needs to ban these addons, gearscore, rankwatch, hell, even DBM, maybe some of you would actually play "WOW The Graphic Game" not "WoW the Combat Log Game".

I'm pretty sure we're actually on the same side in this discussion. If I initially came off like Rambo wading into an instance and and go pull stuff, that wasn't the intention. I follow the tank, I watch their threat, I check the healer's mana situation, and then I go from there. Is the healer or tank struggling? Then I'll slow down. Is the healer so bored I'm watching him wand the enemies? Ok, I'm going to pop some cooldowns and go nutty. And yes, I've definitely had to be scraped off the floor in a pug on the first pull because I couldn't keep it in my pants and watched a healer or tank struggle and have to let me die in order to make sure the group doesn't wipe, and that is perfectly cool. I don't think you can play a warrior unless you are pretty open to repair bills. And no, I'm not doing any of this in HoR since even in a guild run that's a pain in the ass.

So the only time I get on a healer's case is when it's obvious that the tank is pretty much immortal, the healer could keep me up with no problem, there's an actual benefit to keeping me up (run goes faster), but still doesn't. A serviceable healer keeps the group from wiping; a great healer can actually improve the overall DPS by giving DPS a leash (leash sizes vary, consult your owner's manual).

@Anonymous

Oh how I wish you had a name to identify yourself with. I would find your realm and mail you an "I choo choo choose you" Valentine's card (and there's a picture of a train on the front). You're absolutely correct, I'm not talking about being sloppy DPS, I'm just talking about the fact that there are times I'll end up pulling a mob off a tank in the middle of a pull from mundane AoE, stuff that will never cause a wipe.

@Kensai

Can you tell us how you really feel? Hmm, can you make an add-on that tells me what you're trying to say? Maybe call it the "Nazi Scum Accuser Mod".

If you really knew what you were doing, you'd have bought all your skills. The fact that you have 7 other characters that are dual specced doesn't make it better, it actually makes it worse. Hopefully someone with Rankwatch will let you know your other characters are using the wrong skills too.

This just in, your skills and your gear are my business the second we're forced to work together. If you don't like that, then don't go into groups where other people are actually putting in the time and effort to come prepared.

The reason Rohan died was because of a healer who thought the way you do, Kensai. A healer who was so offended at being told he should be using Abolish Poison instead of Cure Poison (which there's no reason not to, since a quick comparison of the two would tell you that Abolish Poison is strictly better) that he thought he should let the tank die. See, now, if the healer hadn't gotten offended at Rohan, then not only would he have improved his healing, the run would have been smooth anyway. So it is the healer that ruined that run for everyone else.

"BTW: Personally I try to keep everyone alive in groups. Mostly because when some dps pulls, the tank feels like taunting them off. And I don't let my tank die unless I'm OOM. If I am playing with a friend of mine who's tanking however, we agree on letting pulling dps die."

Hahaha, the second I see that the tank and the healer are from the same realm/guild, I immediately check my threat generation because I know there's like a 95% chance that they'll let me die for the hell of it.

"Look, as long as you don't pay for my subscription and i'm pulling my weight (which i am) you have no right to question me. "

The Kettle says:

"That's what you should do with your in-game time, not try to be the Overlord, wisest and addon-est of them all."

Kensai, you feel free to play the game the way you like, but don't go telling people "It's MY way and you can't tell me I'm wrong" only to turn around and tell that same person "You're doing it wrong".

I'm sorry you get offended at an add-on whispering you. I really, truly am. But you can't say that the add-on using player isn't trying to help. They downloaded that mod SPECIFICALLY to help themselves - and others - use the best skills they have available.

If you're still wondering what i'm trying to say Truth, you have a mental disorder or you're plain illiterate. And like i said, the human touch is all. I'll call you nazi in your face, i have no problem with that whatsoever.

My gear and skills are actually none of your concern. It's apples and oranges. As long as do more dps than you, even if i use rank 1 sinister strike, shut the fuck up. You got something right though, being an RPG, you're not forced to do a goddamn thing. You're not forced to party with me, so kindly gtfo. I'm not forced to listen to your spam, and now that i think of it, might as well report the next guy who spams me with crap, see how blizzy treats this, after all, unwanted input transcends douchebaggery, it's an offense. I work for an ISP and we ban sites that send spam, so hey, maybe it will work, ya know ?

The fact that a grand total of 1% out of the hundred skills i have on 10 chars got overlooked it's by no means a measure of my skill, experience and performance. You're in denial if you think a person's anger has nothing to do with being spammed by Rankwatch. Cause and effect, people. If i have a short fuse or i'm easily offended, that's a human trait which furthermore you have no right to judge. The only thing pricks like truth can judge me by, is performance. Did i get the job done ? Then stfu. Did anyone died ? No. Was the poison removed ? Enjoy. Are you topped off ? Be quiet and pull the next pack.

You've been beating around the bush for several posts now saying the same thing over and over again, with no new arguments whatsoever, when the solution can be summed up in an old saying: two wrongs don't make a right. So the healer could be more effective, but it doesn't mean you could be more of an ass and try to teach him his job.

As long as nobody drops the ball, have a nice big cup of stfu and enjoy the ride. A pox upon rankwatch, gearscore, recount and other crap. You're turning this game into an excel spreadsheet and that's bad for everyone.

Dorgol, i wasn't the one to point the finger first. I'm only saying here "who are you to criticize me, when you fail the social contract ?"

"They downloaded that mod SPECIFICALLY to help themselves - and others - use the best skills they have available."

No no, my friend, they downloaded that mode SPECIFICALLY to be douches, since the "others" didn't ask for their help. As stated before, i know what my fireball crits should be like, i'm doing fine on my own, thank you very much. That kind of SPAM is the last thing i need.

SPAM, people. Think about it. Argue this to me now. How an unwanted, automatically generated message improves my game experience. The contents of the message are unimportant at this point. Really, do you click your spam links ? Even if they could improve your life ? I mean come on, you could lose weight ! You could enlarge your penis ! Why are you so selfish ?? Only because it's SPAM ?! You could make my life easier as well ! I could fit in the bus near you ! You could improve your sex partner's life ! It would be right ! The fact that you don't enchant your penis with armor penetration and you're not using max rank love rocket is WRONG WRONG WRONG ! And if it pisses you off that some guy named Jerry Krackdot that you don't even know is sending you these emails, you're being weird ! Don't let the fact that you don't want a bigger love rocket put you off ! Say yes and thank you ! Choose life, man !

Would using the max rank of the spells I using help my tanking/healing/DPS? Yes, almost always.

Do you need a bigger penis? Not necessarily, because the automatic spam will e-mail you regardless of gender, age or sexual prowess.

Do you need to be told about using a downranked ability? Yes, because RankWatch wouldn't whisper you unless you did use a downranked ability.

So it's not spam, it's a directed attempt to tell you you're not playing at your full potential, because unlike being ungemmed or unenchanted, using a downranked ability is rarely a choice and most often an oversight.

Everyone's making the same argument because you haven't invalidated it. But this is just funny to watch you flip out on the internet. At this point I think everyone just wants to see how high the crazy meter goes.

I really like this imaginary DPS contest we're having. I can't believe I just lost to you when you don't even buy all the skill points! You are so good at this game, you should write a blog. I would definitely read it.

I would love to see a post about the social contract and how people shouldn't tell you how to improve your play, but it's perfectly ok for you to show up in a bad spec and play end-game content without end-game skills.

Perhaps i haven't invalidated your argument, because there was no argument to begin with. Rohan's healer didn't suck, Rohan didn't die because the healer sucked, he died because the healer let him die. Now why he did that, that's the real matter of debate. But you fail over over and over again to face the facts, if there wouldn't be a rankwatch, it would have been a nice clean run.

Oh and talk about invalidation, you haven't validated or invalidated jack shit so far.

How about the spam component of the story, and don't give me that "oh rankwatch knows exactly who you are", it doesn't, it's a script, just like those that send you 300 junk email a day. Also, don't kid yourself, anonymous, size does matter, and sex matters in a relationship... you'll discover that someday when you grow up. Your input is unwanted and unneeded, thus, it's spam and it should be reported.

How about the fact that no one made you the watchman, and your worth is close to zero in 90% of your online encounters ? And who watches the wannabe-watcher ? Oh yeah, i bet you're all sunshine and daisies when rankwatch tells YOU what to do, are ya ? I mean, once you automatically assume you're the better player and you have the right to question me and be the big brother watching us all mortals, your residual self image must be batman or something. So hey batman, turn that awesome scripted insight to yourself and ask yourself what you are doing, and who exactly you think you are.

How about that you don't know me and you don't know the healer from Rohan's adventure ? And you have no idea what i can do, and for that matter, neither does Rohan know what his healer is and what he can do, because the whole thing turned into a nice big clusterfuck, all because of a shitty addon. But of course, it's so easy to go "oh, he was using cure instead of abolish, clearly this whole thing was his fault, not mine, for installing fascist addons that reduce a real life human player to a bunch of numbers and ranks, oh, no sir, in fact, i should be congratulated, pat on the back, hell, even given a blow job for my prowess !".

How about that you don't know my spec or what i play, or how about you being such a wanna-be that you forget there are no skill points in WoW, only abilities and talent points ?

How about the fact that it's not your business, as long as i pull my weight, to question my choice of talents, skill ranks and gear ? Perhaps knowing my shit and playing all classes, i could give you a few pieces of advice. But do I ? No, because you didn't ask for my input. It's common sense.

How about the real life analogy of the know-it-all asshole at your workplace ? Come on, every single job comes with those, unless you're too young to work or incapable or too lazy (i think it's the latter, after all, only a lazy person can install addons that do the job of judging others for him). Well, do you like that guy ? Do you secretly hate him ? Do you join him ? Or do you plain and simple tell him to go fuck himself ?

I know it's easy for you to dissociate yourselves from your online persona and act differently. I was never able to do that. I'll tell you to stick your rank into your watch both online and in the really real world. And believe you me, i'm not going crazy here, this.. this is my natural state. It takes zero effort on my part to make an ass eat his own bullshit. And make no mistake, rankwatch in itself and for personal use ONLY might be okay, but to have it whisper others, that's BULLSHIT.

Also, a word for you, truth, something i learned many years ago: dead dps deal no damage.

I've had RankWatch whisper me on my Warlock for using the wrong rank of Curse of Tongues.

Other people who commented on this post have also reported stories of RankWatch telling them they were downranking.

And you know what? 99% of the people I've encountered who have been "judged" by that add-on were GRATEFUL for the notice. The only exceptions generally tend to be people who are leveling and (for whatever reason) find it inconvenient to go to town and train every 1-3 levels.

You're right, I don't know max level talents or gear choices for every class and spec very well, so when I do inspect people in a 5-man, usually it's to see if I'm right and the Paladin has Bryntroll equipped or seeing why the DPS is relatively low and spotting that he has no gems in his pants.

But I do know Abolish Poison, and I do know Cure Poison, and I do know there's almost no reason to ever downrank an ability in WotLK. In fact, I also know, due to the fact that Rohan posted the name of the healer in question, that the healer in question has heirlooms and thus training costs aren't limiting him, and since Abolish Poison requires level 26 to learn and Maraudon requires a notably higher level to run, there is no reason why the healer should have been using Cure Poison beyond plain ignorance, which is what RankWatch informs you of.

Hi, I have a question for ya :) I'm a holy Paladin myself, and I'm curious, I notice that you spec for the socket bonus when you gem. Are you a FoL healer? or HL healer? Do you run into any trouble in raids without gemming for all intell? I am trying to see the best way to gem my gear :) appreciate all your input! Thanks!!

I think one of the biggest problems in the game is Recount. People are so eager to top the meters that they don't wait for the tank to get aggro.

I have an arcane mage that can easily pull 6-7k in heroics but I've found that tanks can't maintain aggro if I "let loose". When the tank pulls a group. I slowly queue up flamestrike and lay it on the group before instantly slamming Blizzard. 1) it gives the tank a couple seconds to get aggro and 2)I'm going to do a ton of DPS anyway, and in the long run it's quicker and easier to run a heroic without trying to be a DPS prima donna.

I've let a tank die, because he was repeatedly throwing himself at rooms full of mobs when I was at half mana and often when half the group hadn't even caught up.

I got so sick of it that the next time he ran into a room, I let him die, and that allowed me time to mana up, and get the rest of the group assembled. I left him faceplanted in the dirt until we were all ready to go (for a change).

Also, abusing role-power in instances is not limited to healers. It is very much a plague in the tank ranks, too. I've lost count of the times that I've seen someone say "Do you want a tank, or not?" or "If you want me to tank for you, you'll do as I say."

Well, that healer sounds like a jerk worth avoiding. I have on occation allowed dps to die when they repeatedly refuse to stop standing in fire/ice/whirlwind etc etc, but letting the tank die is just silly.

Rankwatch though... Thats also a bit of a jerk thing to have running. Why did you make it your business to tell him to use abolish instead of cure? Sounds like you're the kind of guy who goes through other peoples gear judging their gem-choices then mocking them for not following the guides on elitist jerks.

I would probably have finished the instance then put you on ignore so i would never have to deal with you again.

And you're doing it over a whisper. A WHISPER. JUST IGNORE IT and save yourself a trip to the emergency room. Or the loony bin, because you are directly out of your ranting mind.

Please tell me your main's name and which server you play on...PLEASE. If you're in my battlegroup, I'm SO torn between putting you on ignore or hoping to GOD I get you in my group so I can see your meltdown when my RankWatch taps your shoulder.

No one can really object to rankwatch this much, can then? Sure, no one likes being caught with their fly down, and it's embarrassing when someone tells you. But it's better someone takes you aside and tells you, then lets you get up on stage and address a crowd with it down. That's what rankwatch does.

How is you leaving a group as a low level tank different to him letting you die? You're both being small.

I personally don't find RankWatch offensive because it's useful information, but I do take exception to people's attitudes. Had a HC group on my tank DK where the healer said "you better pull quickly tank, or I'm leaving" like he was some sort of rock star priest demanding that the bowl of M&Ms he gets after the concert "better not have any brown ones".

You can bet your ass I pulled as slow as possible and stopped to explain the boss tactics. Some of the bosses didn't even have tactics, so I explained Kael'thas P1-P5 instead.

Healer left before second boss.

If he'd said "Hi guys, I have to be X at X o'clock so I don't have much time. Please could you hurry" then we'd have been best mates for life.

Seriously, using rankwatch is asking for it. Its like telling a stranger they smell bad. Even if its true, telling them to their face is rude. If you really care about the spells someone casts then stay grouped with em after wards and ask if its ok to give some advice or something.

First what a terrible player - even if they didn't have the money to train the next higher spell at the time, a simple "I couldn't afford it" was all the was needed.

On the flip side, I have willingly let tanks and DPS die. Though it has never been my intent to punish them, there are times when letting a tank or DPS die will save the group. The DPS that keeps stealing aggro and refuses to slow down in case they might lose #1 on the DPS meter. The tank that stacks attack power and critical strike, and passes on dropping tank gear.

Ok, those examples come off like I am punishing them, but the few times this has been a problem, I was never thinking "this will teach them" but instead "if I keep having to heal this heavy on one person, I am going to lose everyone."

The only reason to let a DPS die is if the tank will die if you take the time to heal them. You are better off leaving and finding a new group than letting a DPS die and then rubbing their face in it. Doing so only creates animosity between group members and makes the whole situation worse. Just keep on healing through their mistakes then move on with your life.

I'm in the Rampage battle group. I've noticed a very annoying trend with pug healers - specifically druids - lately. They don't go tree. They stay in elf form. And they starfire. And they wrath. And they hurricane. And let DPS die when DPS is NOT standing in crap. When DPS is NOT pulling aggro.

My main has been a Holy Paladin for most of WoW's history. As a healer I joked about letting dps die with other healers, particularly after raid wipes where people failed the fight mechanics. But at worst I deprioritized a dps after they were warned to stop standing in fire / pulling aggro. I would heal other people first if several people got damaged at the same time and I would not use Holy Shock on them.

Lately I have been going Retribution for pugs. But being a dps pugger is proving frustrating too. Earlier this week I taunted two mobs off of the healer and he refused to heal me at all. About 18 seconds later I died. Yes, ideally the tank would have grabbed them but she had been letting some through and never got them off of me. The healer explained it away saying he didn’t notice the mobs on himself before I Righteous Defense’d them off so he decided I must have body pulled some extras and deserved to die.

Is the lesson here to never try to protect the healer in a pug? Just focus on dps and ignore utility?

I agree with your comment that a person should perform the task that they signed up for in a group situation. I'm sorry that the healer in your situation was a jerk. However, isn't it hypocritical to drop group the way you did? Think of it this way - you signed up as a tank to tank an instance. Yet by dropping group to not deal with that childish healer you not only deprived that individual but also three others that had no idea why you simply left. Not to mention those poor DPS probably waited 45 mins or more simply to get into the dungeon in the first place. If you're going to sign up as a tank then tank it regardless. If you did not want to deal with that healer then that is why the ignore list exists. It's just unfair to the others and makes you out in the same light as that bad healer.

FYI, "Abolish Poison" is *not* strictly better than "Cure Poison", especially if there are other people in the group who can cure poison, and if the poison is not being re-applied at a high rate.

Why?

"Abolish Poison" puts a buff on the target. The buff ticks, and when a tick goes off, poison is removed.

"Cure Poison" is more like "Remove Curse" -- if there's a poison on the target, it removes it.

What's the difference? A target with no poison.

Let's say there's a retadin in the group who's watching for poisons and is fast on the Clique button. If they remove a poison and then you cast "Abolish", you put the "Abolish" buff on the target.

But if they remove a poison and then you cast Cure, the cast *fails*. You have not spent the mana, and you have not spent the *GCD*. This can be *considerably* more efficient under the right circumstances. If you're in a fight where every GCD matters, this can actually be life-and-death.

So, if that mod has a list of spells where you might legitimately want to cast the "lower rank", this really ought to be on that list (same with "Abolish Disease" for priests).

I just had a very similar experience in a heroic. I was tanking HoS, and hadn't specified that I only had enough time to quickly run just The Tribunal and Sjonnir. I admit I should have made it clear to the healer (the 3 dpsers knew this, as they were all guild-mates), but his reaction to my "Im sorry mate, but I really have to go offline in 5 minutes" was to refuse to heal me on Sjonnir. Thankfully, ICC 10 gear means I managed to keep myself up, and I thought maybe he had disconnected. Instead, what I got when asked was "Sorry, didn't hav time to heal, retard". Wow, talk about petty, eh?

East Coast Insider: So you can't be bothered to heal someone outside of combat because it's not "battle damage"? How do you think they got that damage in the first place? Even the warlock, it's faster for him to lifetap than to drink.

Nope, I can't be bothered. Either I'm drinking too, or we can go ahead and pull. I don't care about how someone is roxxing the dps meter. It is usually better threat-wise if they spend the first 5 seconds of the pull eating anyways.

Note that at no point in any of those did I give a reason to not heal the tank, except when it would cause me to pull aggro.

Kring: But there isn't any fire before level 80. And even there it doesn't hurt.

Wrong, and wrong. l2p a healer. Just because healers have powered you through it before doesn't mean it's painless.

I don't care if DPS learns or not. I'm not holding the heals until they get out of the fire to try to teach some lesson. I'm holding them because there is a good chance that they are going to die anyways if they don't move. The difference is me blowing 3 GCDs , a defensive cooldown that ought to go on the tank and a stack of mana on someone who id dead either way.

Rhii: I hate HATE Rankwatch. I hate it at 80, but I hate it even worse before that.

It spams up a big long message on my chat box that I don't have time to read cause I'm in combat. Half the time I think it's important (GM related) because most of my tells are, so I stop to read it anddddd...

You know what? I've never seen a Rankwatch message incomming, just outgoing. You know why? Because I keep up with my trainings, and even if I didn't, since I run it myself, it would warn me if I missed one. Almost all of the responses I've gotten on it are positive, in the "I didn't even know I needed to train" or "I didn't realize my button was broken" vein. Apparently, your attitude is, "the only problem I have with doing a sub-par job is if someone points it out."

Kensai: It's real easy. Due to your fuck ups a tank or a healer has to work up to 6 times more to keep aggro or keep someone alive. Unless i'm on your payroll, once you do that, once you make my life harder, you're on my shitlist.

Yup. And the dumbasses always seem to do it on mobs that either silence, fear, or have knockbacks. "Gee, you know what's better than three mobs that make things a pain in the ass to heal, DPS and tank regardless of your gear? Twelve of those mobs!"

You can see the gear difference because you have that blasted gear score add on. Or you're a nazi yourself and inspect people. How about, it's not you goddamn business ? How about, i want to dps with a sombrero and a diamond tipped cane and look pimp while i do it ?

Die in a fire. Yes, I inspect people. And no, if you aren't going to do your part by making an effort to mitigate damage and play your class, I'm not going to make an effort to try to heal through your fashion sense.

The world of world of warcraft is filled with peppy little youngsters that joined the game somewhere between half-way tbc and last week, and think everything is a race, and you're in the lead.

I got news for you, junior, I've been healing since Molten Core was the only raid around besides UBRS/LBRS. I had Benediction when it was BiS. You don't impress me with how wrinkled your epeen is.

l2p. Yeah, it's a MMORPG. The MMO matters mas much as the RPG. I don't have to group with you. If you want to be an asshat, do it in front of the bank in IF. Don't do it in my group and expect me to heal your asshattery.

No no, my friend, they downloaded that mode SPECIFICALLY to be douches, since the "others" didn't ask for their help. As stated before, i know what my fireball crits should be like, i'm doing fine on my own, thank you very much. That kind of SPAM is the last thing i need.

No, you don't know why I installed it. And if you had run it, you would have

a) never seen a Rankwatch message because you would already know about your problem spells

and

b) you would see that the damned thing lights up like a pinball machine at the start of 75% of PUGs and 99% of BGs. This isn't a 1% problem. You wouldn't even be bitching it it was just a 1% problem for you, because you would have only seen 1, maybe 2 messages. The sad fact is that you are a flake who can't keep up with your alt-itis. Pick a main, play it for a while, and you might at least learn how to play one class well.

Honestly, it wouldn't be so bad if it was a sentence or two saying "Hey, your (spell) is lower than max rank. If this is on purpose, please ignore. Thanks!" That would not annoy me.

But no. It has to be THREE FREAKING WHISPERS FULL of spam. That's annoying, uncalled for, and it fills up my chatlog, maybe makes me miss something important in guild chat or party chat.

It's an instant /ignore. I won't stop healing you for it, I won't not taunt off you for it, but it instantly sets me on edge and is really uncalled for. As long as the run goes smoothly, what do you care if I'm using mangle rank one or rank two?

We're not talking about people doing stupid stuff like hunters meleeing, or druids meleeing in caster form (yes, I have seen it). That's the kind of instances where "I play my way!" goes out the window. This is the kind of stuff that, and this is important, you wouldn't know about without your addon.

If you wouldn't even know about it without your addon, is it really all that important? Really?

Once I was in a normal WotLK dungeon (don't remember which) while I was leveling my Paladin, and I got 2 Rankwatch messages from one of the other group members letting me know that both my Blessing of Wisdom and Holy Light spells were a rank or two behind. When I checked into it and saw it was correct, I was mortified by my own noobishness to have come into a dungeon run unprepared that way.

Did I freak out at the guy whose add-on whispered me like that, completely unsolicited, or place them on /ignore? No...I said "wow, thanks for letting me know that, I don't know how that could have happened" and he pointed out that it's a common mistake due to the secondary spec not updating your bars when spells are purchased on the primary, or vice versa, and said he was glad he could help me. This made perfect sense, since I was leveling in Ret and doing dungeons in Holy.

Seriously, if Rankwatch discreetly letting you know you are accidentally using the wrong spell ranks, a common mistake anyone could make, offends you, you have some serious issues with insecurity of something. Man up, fix your spells and say "thank you" to the person was helpful enough to let you know.

When I'm on my healer main I heal all, except the dps who pull in place of tank after they've been warned twice.

Anyway, I have been leveling a mage (lev 65) lately, and many times I ended up grouped with a healer and 3 melées. 80% of the runs are chain pulls, pulling groups of 5-6 mobs when healer is at 30% mana. Healer is always frantic, and my dps is ofc lower than it could be.

Me or healer always ask the group to give a mana break at least beforethe bosses, but it seems they don't understand English, and they never answer or stop.

Leveling has become so terribly easy that new players get to level 80 without the slightest idea of game mechanics and their classes.

You NEED to let them die because unfortunately it is the only way you have to teach them the game basics.

Actually as an active user of dual-spec on my toons (Tanks & Heals) I've been equally thankful and ashamed, when rankwatch informed me, that some spells are of lower than possible rank.Until the first notification I wasn't aware, that there is an issue with dual-spec-leveled toons.So I have no problem with that addon, I'll update the spells after the current situation has been cleared.

Regarding the Original Post:As a Healer I'll heal people if they stand in the fire for a short time. But if they just ignore their surrounding like the laser in the Brann event, I'll let them die.It's not a Healers task to cure stupidity. ;-)

I pretty much do the same thing: I'm just there to get my emblems, preferably quickly. Though if you do something dumb and I don't manage to heal you, I won't feel bad if you die. The only group of people that I won't heal are those who find it necessary to be incredibly offensive in party chat. I'm talking serious racism, sexism, homophobia etc. But I made a grouping macro which says that behaviour will make me drop group, so they have been warned.

Oh, I did once only occasionally heal the tank, rather than keeping him at full all the time. He pulled 3 or 4 groups before I'd had a chance to buff the whole group, and he was out there on his own because the DPS hadn't even managed to catch up. So I figured he was looking for a challenge :D He didn't die though.

I'm starting to think I need a macro for my DPS alt that I'm levelling. I mean surely by now tanks know that the healer needs mana to be able to heal them O_o Had one guy curse us out and drop group because he died because he'd gone 3 pulls in a row without letting the healer drink and the healer had no mana. This was in SM. Conversely, low level paladin tanks win because in another SM group the pally tank would pull about 1/4 of the instance in one pull, then let everyone drink to full and go again. So fun ^_^

Interesting blog - interesting responses - yes there are idiots out there and do you like to belong to them? your choice - as a tank you tank, as a healer you heal - if folks act up - don't sweat it - don't become a prick yourself - tank and heal and get this over with - mostly 15-25 min of your life max - can't deal with it - don't pug - I am a healer and don't like to see anybody dying - never let anybody die intentionally - if a DPS or tank acts arrogant - I tell them - letting them die is not an option - have I met all sorts of idiots in PUGs.. to often, will I continue to do so.. sure.. it's part of the game

I liked the blog. I play a mage as my main character (super geared), and now refuse to pug because the tanks can't hold ANY threat anymore in a pug daily heroic. Since I don't need the badges I don't sweat it too much.

I have more of a problem with the pugs on my alt healer. I also stand by the healer code "I'll TRY to keep you up as best as I can, but if you are being retarded I'm not gonna cry over your death". I've had to put a LOT of people on my ignore list simply because they are BAD. Usually it's the super-undergeared tank using up my entire mana bar per pull that makes me go "really? at least let me rest".

I'm not undergeared by far on my alt, and I'm well-known for my good healing. I just REALLY hate chain pulling, undergeared tanks with less hp then me trying to act like complete dumbasses.

As per the original blog...I've seen the rank watch ONCE. In a BG, someone made it an /emote...drove me nuts. If I saw it in a tell during a heroic, I'd be like oh shit. But in a BG srsly? Most people on this server are super undergeared for pvp, and half of them already play like crap.

I am HAPPY to see that rank watch on my server. We're the only horde progression guild, and there is a LOT of fail. I warn everyone before I start to heal that if they suck too much (standing fire), I'm leaving. I don't have the time or the patience to try and keep morons alive like that. But, I do at least try.