Lei Shin's Final Orders (as Prot)

Greetings. Tonight I went into LFR hoping to get the DPS legs and turn them into tanking ones (yay for replacing blue), but sadly the only other dps loot dropped - Lei Shin's Final Orders http://www.wowhead.com/item=86802

Is there any way I can use this as Prot? And be viable? Should I do it or stick to my other trinks?

You definitely can use it, both stats (haste and str proc - both are better than dodge) have its uses as a tank. It's likely better than what you have. If I'm not mistaken, even the 450 Ghost Iron trinket is better than what you have. I would replace brawler's statue with it until you can find a better one.

I would personally rate it as the best in slot trinket for those who are stacking haste. Heroic version, obviously. But even if I get my hands on LFR one, I'd gladly drop that stupid stamina trinket from one of heroics.

Stamina is better if you still do not have the current tiers almost full gear, otherwise you can prioritize mastery and haste more. But eg if you are decked with LFR gear and trying end of tier normal modes or heroic modes you need to gem for stamina and have 2 stamina trinkets.

I would personally rate it as the best in slot trinket for those who are stacking haste. Heroic version, obviously. But even if I get my hands on LFR one, I'd gladly drop that stupid stamina trinket from one of heroics.

Eh, Theck seems to think that 2 stam trinkets is the way to go for this tier, and having since followed that advice I kinda agree with him. I've rolled with normal lei shins for a while, and personally I prefer the stam trinks.

Originally Posted by Asphyxes

Taco dinner, movie at my mancave then I'll surprise her with a TCG tabard and tell her I love her.

Eh, Theck seems to think that 2 stam trinkets is the way to go for this tier, and having since followed that advice I kinda agree with him. I've rolled with normal lei shins for a while, and personally I prefer the stam trinks.

This really annoys me - sorry to call out, but people who blindly follow a theorycrafter without actually knowing why he chooses double stamina trinkets for example. From my experience so far, there hasn't been hardly ANY magic heavy fights.

This really annoys me - sorry to call out, but people who blindly follow a theorycrafter without actually knowing why he chooses double stamina trinkets for example. From my experience so far, there hasn't been hardly ANY magic heavy fights.

OT - Use the Lei Shins, it's amazing.

1) You didn't provide any evidence that blindly following theorycrafting isn't exactly the same thing you may be doing.

2) Theck is often pretty decent at saying why he does something, rather than only giving the numbers.

3) You didn't provide any evidence against him.

4) Xothic said he has experience trying out both. It isn't entirely blind.

5) Magic damage is definitely not the only reason someone would want stamina.

Eh, Theck seems to think that 2 stam trinkets is the way to go for this tier, and having since followed that advice I kinda agree with him. I've rolled with normal lei shins for a while, and personally I prefer the stam trinks.

I see no reason to use 2 stamina trinkets so far. My healers are comfortable with my hp pool. I'm not getting oneshotted by bosses or anything like that.
As far as I know, the only reason to stack stamina is to prevent instagibs. Which are not happening.

1) You didn't provide any evidence that blindly following theorycrafting isn't exactly the same thing you may be doing.

2) Theck is often pretty decent at saying why he does something, rather than only giving the numbers.

3) You didn't provide any evidence against him.

4) Xothic said he has experience trying out both. It isn't entirely blind.

5) Magic damage is definitely not the only reason someone would want stamina.

Your face.

1) I run my own numbers, I play comfortably with haste.

2) Yes Theck is amazing, I never doubted this or never disputed it - I just don't understand why people blindly follow the best players in the world without knowing their healer setup, their dps setup, the reasons why they're using that gear set and for what particular fights.

3) I don't need to. As I said, he is a good theorycrafter. He's our Landsoul, but for Protection Paladins.

4) Mkay.

5) Magic damage is the main reason you would want stamina though as there is no mitigation for Magical damage other than stamina...

This really annoys me - sorry to call out, but people who blindly follow a theorycrafter without actually knowing why he chooses double stamina trinkets for example. From my experience so far, there hasn't been hardly ANY magic heavy fights.

OT - Use the Lei Shins, it's amazing.

Assumptions, everywhere!

Theck made a very solid argument as to stamina being the most effective stat when it comes to TDR, so I decided to try it for myself and I've concluded I agree with him. I've run both a very heavy Haste build and a more moderate haste/stamina build, and both myself and my healers agree that the latter is the most reliable option. I mean sure, I do prefer certain builds on certain fights more (Heavy haste to keep Sotr up as much as possible during Will comes to mind), but I am far to lazy to reforge and regem before every fight, so I've decided to opt for a build thats as well rounded as possible.

Please try to be less blindly aggressive next time. At no point in my post did I say "Well Theck says do X, I don't know why but its Theck!", instead I tried to imply that I had run numbers/practice fights of my own, but apparently you didn't catch on to that.

Originally Posted by Asphyxes

Taco dinner, movie at my mancave then I'll surprise her with a TCG tabard and tell her I love her.

I've run both a very heavy Haste build and a more moderate haste/stamina build, and both myself and my healers agree that the latter is the most reliable option. I mean sure, I do prefer certain builds on certain fights more (Heavy haste to keep Sotr up as much as possible during Will comes to mind).

Ehr, actually it should be the exact opposite. Will hits like a fucking truck therefore favoring stamina due to spiking when you can not have SotR up.

A fight that hits less favors haste since even if you do not have perfect uptime, get hit by a spell or whatever you still survive.
Stamina is about surviving the big burst of damages and letting your healers heal you more comfortably. Will is one of the burstiest fights in MGV so I do not see why you would want to use haste there if you prioritise stamina on other fights. Will HC is really the only fight in MGV where I can actually see myself using stamina. Maybe Elegon if you are having issues, but, nah, elegon is easy, not even remotely needed there. I rather use MoBI as trinket over stamina for that fight if I want to survive more damage.

Prioritising stamina for Guards, Feng, Gara and SK HC is just silly, really no reason to do so.

Again, feels like you may be one of those ( sorry to call out ) that blindly follows guidance and having a placebo effect of trying out a new gear and seeing "hey, it actually works" whilst in reality it makes little to no difference. Seeing as it seems you have no clue what fights favors each kind of stat.

I mean, I also sometimes use stamina trinkets, nothing wrong with that, though I use them when they are actually benefitial, not just randomly. You can use haste in every fight or stamina in every fight, whatever floats your boat. But if your using haste trinks on will and stam on other fights in MGV. You need to reconsider.

Also when trying out new things, keep in mind what changed. Maybe you gained more gear? Your healers gained more gear?
New healer that is better/worse? Maybe you yourself played better with CDs. Or as mentionened earlier, maybe simply because you actually pay attention to your health and stuff you get a placebo effect while trying out new gear. ( happened to me several times )

Ehr, actually it should be the exact opposite. Will hits like a fucking truck therefore favoring stamina due to spiking when you can not have SotR up.

(Speaking from a Normal perspective on Will, have not progressed to Heroic yet)
I'm not sure I agree. I see where you are coming from, but I really just don't agree. You see, my line of thinking on Haste stacking on Will is thus; I'm not in danger of being killed by 1-2 unmitigated melee hits from the boss, but beyond that I am getting progressively more and more fucked. Ensuring that no more than 1 hit is unmitigated via Haste stacking ensures that I don't need to stack stamina on that fight. That said, to completely ignore stamina on that fight would be silly, which is why moderation on a case by case basis is required.

Now I'm going to say something that is kinda stupid: I personally don't consider Will burst-y. Hear me out, half (~) of the fight, you are (should be) taking no damage due to the devastating combo's, the other half is just normally paced according to the bosses (admittedly, fucking hard) melee swings. It's like considering pulling a boss "bursty". You were taking no damage prior to the pull, but now that you've engaged you're taking damage. I don't know, I just don't see it. I think people are confusing bursty with hard-hitting. Although I suppose the arguement could be made that they are the same thing, it really comes down to your own personal interpretation.

Anyway, onto another point you made:

Prioritising Stamina for Guards is silly.
I cannot disagree enough. ~70% of the damage out of the Stone Guards (excluding jade shards etc etc) is from the Rend Flesh dot, which, if memory serves, cannot be mitigated by Sotr, only by hand of purity. If I'm wrong, which is a full possibility, then I concede that Haste would work better for SG.

Prioritising Stamina for Feng is silly.
I don't see how you could come to this conclusion, so much of the damage on Feng H is purely magical. I'd go so far as to argue that Feng H is one of the best fights for Stamina stacking, as I have never had any trouble with his melee hits.

Prioritising Stamina for Gara is silly
I agree wholey with you here, Stamina is practically useless on Gara H given that most of the time should be spent spamming Sotr like there is no tomorrow in order to prevent the other Voodoo Dolls from being destroyed.

Prioritising Stamina for SC H is silly
Unfortunatly, I have no experiance with SC H, and can only make comments within my own knowledge. That said, Elegon N/H is great for Stam imo purely because of how hard CB hits you. I know that you should be using CD's to soak it, but still, it hits like a fucking fleet of megatrucks.

I'd also like to point out that everything I've said here is based soley on my own observations while tanking. I don't claim to be a master theory crafter, I just go with what seems to work at the time.

Originally Posted by Asphyxes

Taco dinner, movie at my mancave then I'll surprise her with a TCG tabard and tell her I love her.

One thing to remember is that there is not a single answer. My healers are truely amazing which lets me stack more haste than stamina due to the hp pool is simply not needed. That said, will and normal elegon is the only fight in MSV that I still see stamina benefitial.

Well, for will. You take no damage for 20 seconds then you take well above average damage for 30 seconds. Not while the damage is insanely high, it is still higher than any other boss in MSV. Personally I still use haste for will because I think cooldowns cover it. I used to use the PVP mastery+hp trink on first kill since it is great. Not saying you need ( or should ) go stamina. Just saying that if your going stamina on any fight, it should be will.

Speaking heroic modes here.

Guards - I am not really sure if SotR mitigates rend flesh, I never bothered checking since quite frankly the tank damage is just not there. SS + SoI can almost keep yourself up. Tanking both dogs doing over 60k hps. Imo the fight does not warrant a change in gear in either way since it is just to easy to even bother. If you are dying here you are either not tanking both dogs ( which is silly ) or you are not performing your rotation properly. Could probably do this with 300k hp health pool.

Feng HC - Used 1 tank tactic without stamina stacking, had no issue staying alive, simply popping cds when reaching 5-6 stacks of the debuffs. Using 2 tanks there is absolutely no reason to stack stamina as he hit like a whimp at 1-3 stacks. I did use prismatic elixir though to mitigate some of the magic damage.

Gara - Very obvious.

SK - The tank damage is just not there

Elegon - On heroic the arcane explosion does not hit the tank making stamina non useful. The breath alone does not do enough damage Problem has always been getting breath + explosion, but since that does not happen in heroic, just pop Dprot on the last breath before tank switch, gg.
MoBI is insane here if you dying, much better than stamina. If your dying to breath, use Prismatic Elixir.
MoBI lets you mitigate the last 2 breaths before tank switch every single time. A combination of 5x BoG WoG, MoBI and Dprot lets you mitigate pretty much every breath. 5x BoG WoG is not that bad on Elegon since he hits kinda week melee hits.

Maybe the reason why I dislike stamina so much for magic heavy fights is because I have come to realise how strong MoBI and Prism elixir is, especially combined with an unglyphed DProt.

The reason why tanks would use stamina on any heroic mode encounter is the reason that there's a lot of damage going out and you often need to be able to take hits without dying for even a long period of time. While Lei Shi's might overall be better for TDR (and I like the damage increase too, it's nice) it's the certain parts of the fight (in most cases) that makes you want stamina as much as possible.

I am fairly undergeared on my paladin for the progression my guild has (10/16 heroic 10man) and dropping ANY stamina at all right now would feel like the worst choice ever. For me Mogu'shan Vaults is a trivial instance right now, but let's talk about Heart of Fear.

Imperial Vizier Zor'lok - Tank damage is overall very small, but there are ridiculous spikes especially in the second phase of the fight if you're tanking the boss. When Force and Verve is being cast you must stand outside of the damage-reducing bubble with a cooldown up, but some of you probably don't know the boss hits you with a melee attack before the last tick of Force and Verve. This attack often hits me, even with a cooldown up, for over 100k. Haste or stamina? Give me that stamina, please.

Blade Lord Ta'yak - Very trivial tank damage. The only thing you can die to is the strike that gives you a debuff when you already have a stack of it. You should have a cooldown up for that anyway. I'd take Lei Shi's, not for the haste but for the dps. The fight is so easy it doesn't matter what you're wearing. If it was harder though, you'd want... stamina!

Garalon - Very high raid damage, you can have a SotR up for every cone attack even without large amounts of haste -> additional haste doesn't give you much, except in the 2nd phase, in which the tank damage is trivial anyway. Sometimes the raid is in a situation where the healers don't have time to heal you for extended periods of time, having double stamina trinkets (especially mastery use ones) is really nice here.

Wind Lord Mel'jarak - We used an odd strategy where I would tank all the adds and when the boss would do his +600% damage taken thing I'd grab him too, so that I could pull max dps and healing through Seal of Insight and Battle Healer, so the only times when I could die is when there would for some odd reason be a huge spike in damage. Stamina for this one too, with our strat. I imagine that haste would pull off to be better here though, if you evenly tanked all the adds with 2 tanks.

Grand Empress Shek'zeer I haven't gotten to yet, so can't comment on it.

Obviously you want to choose your trinkets based on what fight you're playing... but really, it's not that often, at least in HoF, that Lei Shi's would pull ahead of the 3 good stamina trinkets there are (DMC, Raid Drop and Shado-Pan).

Used 0 stam trinkets in HoF, in no point of the instance did the healers have trouble keeping me up. ( still waiting for amber + empress )
1 tank on wind lord, almost healed myself alone. I could see stam trinkets for Vizier but for me, not using haste trinkets on 2,3,4 seems wrong.