Precisely Iains, the truth of the matter is that due to the appalling leak and lack of judgement on the part of the NY Times we will never know as within 24 hours of the attack anyone who did provide help had been tipped off, could destroy any trace of any link and disappear and that is more than likely why the police investigation found nothing.

my dad, after doing his 25 years as a cop with war service retrained as nurse in mental hospitals.

during the 1970's - the idea that big mental hospitals were somehow morally wrong became current and it chimed in very well with the government plans to save money. dad became very concerned about the number of 'human time bombs' that were being released out onto the streets.

of course this was as nothing to the Thatcher big idea of 'care in the community'. during that time i did a short teaching contract in the Derby suburb of Mickleover - where there was a large mental hospital being dismantled. the local shopkeepers on the high street of Mickleover were distressed at the strange and sad patterns of behaviour of the people passing their shops.

mental illness affects many of us at sometime in life. we need to protect both the sufferers and the general public better.

A support network could not destroy all trace of its existence simply by getting tipped off - mobile phone, web search and email records? eyewitness recollections from neighbours? sales receipts? airline bookings? employers' records of when holidays were taken? electricity meter readings to say when people were at home? border control logs?

On the other hand, all that could suddenly become invisible to the police if MI5 told them it had to be.

"Yes, for tea and cakes with Corbyn & Carrolburger!!!!!" Many thanks for putting me with soomebody worth associating with Enjoy your pint with Theresa May lads - maybe you can talk about the kicking she has just given the economy and the cancellation of the Queen's speech Would love to be a fly on the wall of that one "The authorities are aware of 23 000 such "unhinged" individuals." And how many arrests? Jim Carroll

Al, you said, "Just an unhinged individual whom a caring society would have sorted out, and whom the authorities had been alerted about - but decided to do nothing for."

I explained why they had not been sorted out. There are just too many of them.

If that was not the problem, another problem would be that they do not want to be sorted out. They would have to be taken forcibly and remember that they are not known to have broken any laws. Happy with that?

Jim,"The authorities are aware of 23 000 such "unhinged" individuals." And how many arrests?

They can be arrested if there is evidence that they are planning an attack, and a number of attacks have been foiled and convictions made.

The Westminster killer, the Manchester bomber, and two of the London Bridge killers were known to the authorities, along with 23 000 others, but were guilty of no known crime before they struck.

i totally disagree. the point is that we just don't bloody care. we care nowt and we do nowt about

The remedial education inspector of schools in Brum where i started my career was a geezer called Tansley. He told us back then that the physical environment was causing brain damage in up to 70% of children in brum. Then theres been the marvellous work done by Jamie OLiver who has campaigned tirelessly for us to stop poisoning our kids with cheap shit food.

There is so much we could do preventitively to stop mental illness in children.

We are overcrowded. We have a society with virtually no opportunities for many young people. The expensive toys of the rich are dangled in front of poor people 24 hours a day in advertising.

Education is a cut price cock up. Society is such a sodding mess that we have simply given up on training our own nurses, doctors, even bloody football players.

There have always been periods in our history when towns and cities were extremely overcrowded (eg Victorian times, when people migrated to the cities for work), folk were very poor, children and indeed adults had to be content with 'cheap shit food', there were no opportunities for many young people save down the mines, in the mills or out in the fields. Before the NHS most people had no access to doctors, nurses or even a decent education. However I don't believe that the population was 'going quietly mad' then.

We need to investigate why certain individuals are mentally deranged and I wonder if it's because they feel alienated. By that I mean they are unsure of their identity or their place in society as a whole. They seek some sort of recognition, even if it means achieving it by violent and murderous acts.

The Dunblane killer had been rejected for youth work (for legitimate reasons) and felt ostracised and lonely. This provoked the terrible vengeance he wrought on that school. I'm sure the jihadi terrorists feel their religion is despised by the rest of us, and are drawn in by brain-washing fundamentalists as it's a better alternative to a powerless and fruitless life. Even mass-murderers have often been abused as children and have become dangerously hate-filled.

I am not advocating one gives killers cuddles. They need first and foremost to be securely detained, to protect us all. And I do think criminal justice must be brought to bear, and due punishment/containment meted out.

But we would do well to try to understand and get to the bottom of the root causes of anti-social acts and individual rebellion and violence.

Jim,"There are just too many of them." We don't know how many there are

We do not know how many there are, but police and security forces know of 20 000 sympathisers and another 3 000 considered to be an actual risk. The recent killers were just thought to be sympathisers.

Al,and we do nowt about

What can be done faced with so many?

. We have a society with virtually no opportunities for many young people.

Most recent terrorists have received further education and many university education. There have been engineers, doctors and other medical professionals.

As Senoufou says , we have always had issues of deprivation. That does not explain the recent problem of radical Islamic terrorism.

Greg F As usual you have nothing to contribute, other than an attempt to troll. As a "sunshine" it is gratifying to know I shed a ray of enlightenment in your sad little negative world. It must be time for your daily propaganda medicine from CNN and the NYT. Who knows? given enough time you might see the light! but you really must change your reading habits.

I personally hold to the view that if a person is mentally ill (from whatever cause) they cannot be blamed for their actions, no matter how pernicious. If a person is, however, merely evil/wicked and misanthropic, then it's more appropriate to administer some form of punishment. The problem lies in being able to distinguish between the two. Psychiatrists and other experts have debated this ad infinitum over the years. I don't believe one can be mad and bad simultaneously.

"I don't believe one can be mad and bad simultaneously." What about Lord Byron who was "Mad, Bad, and Dangerous to Know " "We do not know how many there are, but police and security forces know of 20 000 sympathisers and another 3 000 considered to be an actual risk. The recent killers were just thought to be sympathisers." The Government appear never to have believed that otherwise they would never have cut the numbers of the police and the security services. "Sympathisers" is a meaningless accusation - does that mean they are potential terrorists or just that they are pissed off with the abuse and racism that has been rained down on them for decades There have ben no declarations of open support from any section of the Muslim community - on the contrary, these attacts have been condemned unreservedly by them That condemnation merits support, not quotes of meaningless and unresearched figures which cast suspicion over all British Muslims People who do this are dancing to Isis's tune - they/you are as much a part of the problem as potential bombers. Jim Carrroll

'Mad, bad and dangerous to know' was an assessment of Lord Byron by Lady Caroline Lamb, not a psychiatric specialist.

Having a Muslim husband, I'm very encouraged by the reactions of the mainstream Muslim organisations regarding the terrorist attacks. If they'd been in any way condoning them, no doubt my husband would have had some (totally unjustified) overt or covert condemnation from people around here.

the Columbine shooters had apparently glittering futures in front of them. its a sort of Leopold and Loeb syndrome.

I personally would like to see the mighty in this land cast down, and often i would like to express my discontent. never more than when i switch on my telly. two hundred channels of shite. no one expressing my views. no one playing my kind of music. no drama, just dysfunctional cops chasing after serial killers....

we're all fucking alienated. but i've never fancied joining the serial killers. i mean - that's where it goes wrong, isn't it? its not thinking you need to wash your feet five times a day to get to heaven,or thinking that the world is flat, or that Donald Trump is a great guy... the cutoff point is killing people.

It is indeed all very depressing Big Al, and if one isn't careful, one can get bogged down in despair.

I find I can lift myself up again by reaching out to others in tiny ways, looking for the good things to counteract the bad and having a good laugh whenever possible.

TV can be entertaining, not all gloom and doom. I enjoy documentaries on almost any subject, comedy shows like Mock The Week and Mrs Brown's Boys, programmes on music genres (such as those on BBC 4 and BBC 2 recently) and the Music channel with all the latest hits.

I find ordinary people are usually very well-disposed. I natter to anyone on buses, in queues, at the supermarket etc and always come away smiling. And the odd crumpet dripping with butter cheers me up no end!

In the last few days I've had square crumpets and a giant crumpet. No crumpet worthy of the name should ever leave your plate without leaving a little pool of excess butter to mop up. This has got to stop.

"We cannot allow psychiatry to excuse these Jihadist criminals." Any more than we can allow archaic pig-ignorance to rule out any possible reason for these events, to do so would be to go into 'lynch-mob' mode Like it or not, it is the job of the experts to decide whether these people are criminals or insane, Nobody here, as far as I am aware, is qualified to decide what motivates these people and if there is any blame on the part of our government, then we have to accept that fact and do something about it. I notice from this mornings papers that the world has been given a second chance to make up for past mistakes - in Argentina, Morocco and Russia, where civil rights protests are once again hitting the fan. Let's hope our world leaders don't drop the ball again this time Jim Carroll

Jim,"Sympathisers" is a meaningless accusation - does that mean they are potential terrorists or just that they are pissed off with the abuse and racism that has been rained down on them for decades

Abedi is a good example. Members of the Muslim community reported him speaking in support of terrorists and saying it was OK to be a suicide bomber. That is what I meant by "sympathiser" and it does not get you onto the watch list of 3000, you are just one of the 20 000.

There have ben no declarations of open support from any section of the Muslim community - on the contrary, these attacts have been condemned unreservedly by them

No-one disputes that Jim.

That condemnation merits support, not quotes of meaningless and unresearched figures which cast suspicion over all British Muslims

What meaningless and unresearched figures? The figures I gave are from the police and security services of all the suspects they are aware of.

"Abedi is a good example." On whhat grounds do you make this outrageous suggestion. Do you have any actual evidence that Muslims heard him incite bombing, if so, what wasn't he arrested? Sorry Keith - this gets darker and darker Meaningless unresearched figures are just that - meaningless They coul be based on 'guilty by association', or local gossip, or just vindictive revenge taking If they had any basis they would have led to at least questioning or, if valid, detention and questioning. If the government took them seriously they would not have reduced the police/security budget. This is little more than hate-mongering. Jim Carroll

"Intelligence officers have identified 23,000 jihadist extremists living in Britain as potential terrorist attackers, it emerged yesterday. The scale of the challenge facing the police and security services was disclosed by Whitehall sources after criticism that multiple opportunities to stop the Manchester bomber had been missed. About 3,000 people from the total group are judged to pose a threat and are under investigation or active monitoring in 500 operations being run by police and intelligence services. The 20,000 others have featured in previous inquiries and are categorised as posing a "residual risk". The two terrorists who have struck in Britain this year — Salman Abedi, the Manchester bomber, and Khalid Masood, the Westminster killer — were in the pool of "former subjects of interest" and no longer subject to any surveillance."https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/huge-scale-of-terror-threat-revealed-uk-home-to-23-000-jihadists-3zvn58mhq

The poor unfortunate misunderstood and alienated "nutter" went to the trouble of dropping out of his studies and using the money from his student loan to travel to Libya and to Syria. While there he associated with known Jihadi terrorists as did his father who after having fled Gaddafi's Libya returned there in 2011. Abedi was taught how to construct a bomb there, not off the internet in the UK.

As you would not be the slightest bit interested in anything other than your own views Big Al why ask - "no one expressing my views. no one playing my kind of music." - Poor old you. Ever thought that your views and "your" music just might not be generally popular - not anybody's fault.

"The poor unfortunate misunderstood and alienated "nutter" " Your phrase - nobody else's The argument is that the decision of wwhy he did it or what he is should not be down to the vengeful ravings of KLANSMEN like yourselves Jim Carroll

Jim, I think we all know what the KKK is. The question is why behave like an utter fool? Everyone here with any comprehension knows Teribus has nothing in common with that group.

The discussion does not involve the KKK in any way and you simply bring it up to divert attention from your lack of any sort of argument.

I refer you again to the admirably honest and perceptive Miss Coulter.

"If liberals were prevented from ever again calling conservatives dumb, they would be robbed of half their arguments. To be sure, they would still have "racist," "fascist," "homophobe," "ugly," and a few other highly nuanced arguments in the quiver. But the loss of "dumb" would nearly cripple them."

"Teribus has nothing in common with that group." His views often coincide as do yours "admirably honest and perceptive Miss Coulter" would be the example I would have sought out - thank you for saving me the trouble. I think that the most important statement from this affair came from Labour candidate Mike Katz: "Driving Muslims away isn't going to make the [jihadist] problem go away; it's going to exacerbate the problem," The statement echoes that made by London Mayor, Tariq Sadiq when he described the aim of Isis was to "drive a wdge between Muslims and the rest of the world" Conjuring up a threat of thousands of terrorist suspects from the Muslim communities when we have no idea what the police suspects are suspected of does just that - it creates an atmosphere of fear and mistrust towards a million or so people living in Britain and it plays right into the hands of Isis in making our Muslim communities 'The Enemy Within' People who indulge in this scaremongering are doing their job for them Jim Carroll

Some thoughts of the "admirably honest and perceptive Miss Coulter" on the Muslim people. America should "invade their [Muslim] countries, kill their leaders, and convert them to Christianity." "Congress could pass a law tomorrow requiring that all aliens from Arabic countries leave." "Camel-riding nomads" and suggested that Muslims be banned from air travel and "use flying carpets" to get around" 'Raghead talks tough, raghead faces consequences", then added "Sorry, I realize that's offensive. How about 'camel jockey'?" "Think of all the wonderful things refugees are bringing to Europe! Rape, murder, car burnings – list is endless!" This moronic fascist must surely be in the pay of Isis? Jim Carroll

Conjuring up a threat of thousands of terrorist suspects from the Muslim communities when we have no idea what the police suspects are suspected of does just that -

So we, and presumably government, should ignore what the police and security services tell us? Should we refuse to even read or listen to what they say?

"Intelligence officers have identified 23,000 jihadist extremists living in Britain as potential terrorist attackers, it emerged yesterday. The scale of the challenge facing the police and security services was disclosed by Whitehall sources after criticism that multiple opportunities to stop the Manchester bomber had been missed. About 3,000 people from the total group are judged to pose a threat and are under investigation or active monitoring in 500 operations being run by police and intelligence services. The 20,000 others have featured in previous inquiries and are categorised as posing a "residual risk". The two terrorists who have struck in Britain this year — Salman Abedi, the Manchester bomber, and Khalid Masood, the Westminster killer — were in the pool of "former subjects of interest" and no longer subject to any surveillance." https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/huge-scale-of-terror-threat-revealed-uk-home-to-23-000-jihadists-3zvn58mhq

"The argument is that the decision of wwhy he did it or what he is should not be down to the vengeful ravings of KLANSMEN like yourselves" Very difficult to question a corpse. If it looks like a terrorist, dresses like a terrorist and acts like a terrorist, then I would be deeply upset if the authorities did not treat him/her like a terrorist. To be honest their mental state is a total irrelevance. If you pose a threat to society you need to be neutralised quickly. If that method of neutralisation involves them getting shot- so be it. Congratulations to those responsible for the timely intervention. Are you going to wait for a psychiatric counsellor to arrive while a crazy is fiddling with the detonator. You must be as crazy as they are.

" Very difficult to question a corpse" Not too difficult if you take the statements of his family and friends into consideration. They put it down to the racist killing of his friend "To be honest their mental state is a total irrelevance." In the matter of how they are dealt with it most certainly is not - if they turn out to be insane you cannot punish them as criminals; that would be a human rights abuse open to International prosecution. It would also debase us as a society. Shooting has to be the last resort, particularly when you recall the Aldwich Tube execution "You must be as crazy as they are." Isn't that a prejudgment of both the people we are talking about and those who happen to disagree with you? Real 'rope over the nearest branch' stuff "So we, and presumably government, should ignore what the police and security services tell us?" No - we take it in the context is which it has been made. The police don't know how many there are - the arrest rate over the years indicates that there aren't that many. The term "jihadist" is meaningless in the way it is being used - it covers those who feel they have a grievance with the non-Muslim world right though to those who thought the West should have intervened in Syria and went off to support the fight against Assad, which doesn't make them extremists in any shape or form, just outraged human beings. The Manchester bomber you cited brings in yet another category, a mentally disturbed man who was outraged about his friend being killed by a racist - SFA to do with Jihhandism, Islamism or any other type of ism. This blanket use of such terms and linking all "suspects" together as a homogeneous bunch is doing massive damage to the fight against Isis and is closing down any chance of co-operation from the communities whose support and assistance we desperately need. You have yet to respond to the fact that the Government did not appear to treat the assessed figures seriously when they cut down the numbers of police and security forces. The very nature of Isis terrorism makes it essential that the fight must be more about making friends in the Muslim communities rather than alienating them by presenting them as suspects. Jim Carroll

Jim Look carefully at what you have written. If they pose a threat they need to be neutralised. If you want to question a suicide bomber as he is about to detonate a bomb, more fool you. I do not care if he had a deprived childhood, got scratched by his cat, or had the latest jihadi training. Threats need to be eradicated by all means possible. In the US nearly a hundred people are killed on the roads each day, in the UK 5. You bleat about one oxygen scavenger less in the world while cars kill thousands. I csannot believe you are real.

No - you read what I wrote Iains I referred to how should be dealt wit on they had been neutralised and specified punishment I also pointed ot that shooting should be a last resort - which as always been police policy as far back as I can remember Stop distorting what I have written Glad you brought up America the land of the free and the gun-happy Jim Carroll

Jim,Not too difficult if you take the statements of his family and friends into consideration. They put it down to the racist killing of his friend

Please give details, because no UK news agency has carried such a story.

I could only find this, and it was nearly a month old. "A source close to Abedi's family told AFP on Friday (5/26/2017) that Abedi's Libyan friend was killed after being stabbed by a group of British youths in Manchester in May 2016. The identity of Abedi's friends was not mentioned further."

This Guardian piece delves deeply into his radicalisation. It briefly mentions the death of a gang member friend, but no suggestion that it was race related or that it was in any way connected to what he did. a href="https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2017/may/28/salman-abedi-manchester-arena-bomber-radicalisation">https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2017/may/28/salman-abedi-manchester-arena-bomber-radicalisation

"Please give details, because no UK news agency has carried such a story." I have done Keith, with actual quotes - in response to Teribus's claim that the motivation was in response to the defeat of Isis Please don't direct any questions directly to me again -I really am not interested in your campaign, especially as you are refusing to the salient points of this argument Jim Carroll

Well then someone should inform the 100 plus Imams and Muslim community leaders who gathered on London Bridge to condemn the terrorists and extremists and pledged to 'root out' the 'menace' of extremism as they launched an action plan to tackle radicalisation within their communities that they have got it all wrong.

"that they have got it all wrong." Nobody has suggested they are - of course terrorists will hide in their own communities It's the fictionalised claims that the Muslim Communities are riddled with terrorists is what is being challenged. The aim should be to win the communities to root out the terrorists, bnot make them the enemy within to suit your own agenda It's somewhat amuning to find you supporting a religious group you have expressed nothing but hatred for in the past People like you are the problem of what is happening today - the real enemies within Jim Carroll

"It's somewhat amuning (amusing??) to find you supporting a religious group you have expressed nothing but hatred for in the past" - Says Jom

Now where and when did bobad express hatred for the religious group you are referring to Jom? Or is this just another one of your careless, throw away, baseless accusations - more Jim Carroll "Made-Up-Shit".

"you really expect JIm to trawl through all of B's posts to prove to you that he hasn't much good to say about muslims" No need Al Bobad put up the largest cut-'n- paste this forum has ever experienced - dredged from some of the most extremist sites on the internet, all setting out to prove what a degenerate religion Islam is. His "examples" went back as far as Biblical times. Take no notice - this is just Teribus's way of trying to get his revenge for having been given yet another sound thrashing All in a day's entertainment Jim Carroll

Jim, I do not regard the Daily Mail as a reputable news agency. It is dated 26th May. That suggestion made a brief appearance but did not stand up to scrutiny. It is not now regarded by anyone as relevant to the atrocity.

The suggestion was only made by his sister, who described the monster as "kind and loving."

His friends death was gang related not racist. He did not take his revenge on the rival gang, but on mostly mothers and children whose faces he saw as he pressed his trigger. It was all a lie to excuse his actions.

I see that Carroll is still being eaten up by the fact he was caught out in full "Made-Up-Shit" mode by the list I put up to challenge his assertion that there have been more terrorist attacks perpetrated in the name of Christianity than in that of Islam. I challenged him to put up an equal list of terror attacks perpetrated by Christians, but having been caught out once again, he assumed his usual defense of name calling and personal attack. Every time he brings it up gives me a good deal of satisfaction to see that he is still trying to save face over it after all this time.

And you know all about Manchester gangs do you Keith? You have not realised that turf wars are generally speaking all about gangs from specific areas and specific ethnicities trespassing on another? There are exceptions but the black gangs do not have many white people in them. The White gangs generally do not tolerate anyone from another race and, yes, there are Asian gangs from predominately Asian areas. You really do live in a different world don't you.

Turn your back for one minute and it just happens, Al :-) I never recall it being just a town like that though. Even in my teens back in the late 60s and early 70s it was a city buzzing with life and always contended with Birmingham for second city status. In the late 70s and 80s when I used to see a lot more live music, we used to go all over the place and the most interesting was the Irish sessions in Moss Side. The drug gangs were in evidence then and all sorts of shit used to go on in the street but places like the Ducie Arms behind the University and the Claremont were sacrosanct. We often got a few of the gang members in for a listen and one became a good banjo player!

"Jim, I do not regard the Daily Mail as a reputable news agency." Course you don't Keith - when it doesn't firt your own personal agenda The story appears elsewhere - I chose the Daily Mail as the newspaper least likely to invent a story that contradicts the establishment line The killer's family and friends are far more likely to understand his motivation that that of outsiders who, if your claims are correct, underfunded and reduced (no comment on that yet) security forces dealing with thousands of "suspects". That the death of his mate might of been "gang related" (no evidence of that) is immaterial - the reason given was that he thought it was racist You carefully tip-toe around that the slaughter that is going on in Syria was also mentioned - too close to home or an apologist of Assad's atrocities. That slaughter is not in any way an excuse for the Manchester slaughter, but it does help to put the whole terrorism issue into context It is Britain and the West's participation in and inaction that has led to the rise of Isis and it is long overdue that was recognised and dealt with - until it is, these attacks will be given an excuse to continue. Jim Carroll

By the way You accused me of making the story up - I didn't You neither withdrew your accusation, nor apologised for making it Your little Jimminy Cricket, Bobad continues with it "I see that Carroll is still being eaten up by the fact he was caught out in full "Made-Up-Shit"" I don't know where Bobad is from as he operates from the safety of anonymity, a true web-creeper, but as far as your own badly brought up, loutish behaviour is concerned the practice of apologising for mistakes or withdrawing accusations doesn't seem to have reached Hertford yet and, if you are anything to go on, I doubt if it ever will Jim Carroll

Did I get anything wrong? Are you actually challenging anything I said?

If so, let's have it.

Yes, Keith. You did. You said

His friends death was gang related not racist.

I was pointing out that if it was gang related in Manchester it could well have been racist as well.

Al, I don't think you have anything against Poles which is why I was puzzled as to why you said that east Europeans bring lawlessness in towns where they settle. I have also said that I am happy to put it down to a mistake but as long as you keep bringing it up, I am happy to quote the exact phrase again. Do you want me to?

okay chapter and verse once again. a friend of mine had a quid shop on the green at boston. we were standing outside chatting to the shopkeeper - a man i had gone to school with some forty odd years previously - my wife and i. a gang of oddly dressed men ran into the shop, helped themselves. ran out again - arms full of loot. i said to the shop owner why don't you call the police. i didn't know they were eastern europeans - my wife has since told me that the shopkeeper told us this was the case. the shopkeeper also told us - there was no point in notifying the police as the situation was out of control. i would also point out the boston website, where remarks and complaints are now banned, because they would make up the bulk of posting - and no one is interested.

my observation has pissed you off and i sorry about that. however if people have stopped bothering reporting the crimes, because nothing ever gets done. it does offer an explanation as to why the statistics don't bear out my story,

whereas i do tend to think the brexit referendum figures for boston, my hometown do suggest i am not a dishonest racist or given to dishonest racist remarks - which seems to be the argument of insidious intent.

i can assure you that when my dad was a cop policing boston - it was not the general way of things.

Dave, I have been reading about Manchester gangs, and it appears that their activities are purely criminal and not racial. Again I challenge you to identify any errors in my post. It is clear that you know much less about this than you pretend.

Here the killing of Abdi's friend is described. "A feud between two south Manchester gangs is behind the outbreak of violence in Moss Side which has resulted in two murders since December, police believe. Tensions between teenage members of the Moss Side Bloods - an offshoot of the infamous Doddington crew - and the Rusholme Crips have erupted over the last few months, according to a senior police source. "

Wiki, "Analysts trace the high rates of gun crime in south Manchester, England, to acute social deprivation in an inner city area south of Manchester city centre stretching from Hulme through Moss Side to Longsight.[1] Whilst by the 1990s, the trade in illegal narcotics and firearms had given rise to Manchester's nickname of "Gunchester", by the late 2000s levels of gang related gun crime had greatly reduced in the area as a whole.[1][2] The reasons for this transformation are not entirely clear but the heavy sentencing of main offenders, prohibiting the availability of firearms, community working and co-operation in tackling this kind of crime may have all played a role"https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gun_crime_in_south_Manchester

Keith, I have sat in pubs with gangs members. They were criminal and racist. Needless to say I didn't stay long. Everything is binary to you, either one thing or another. Things can be both you know. Is that so difficult to understand?

You have not responded to what you think was nasty BTW.

Al, you didn't upset me. I am just puzzled as to why you keep bringing it up.

"Nothing about racism though." Nothing to indicate this was the murder in question either A rhetorical question - do I get an apology for your accusation that I made this up now you have reached the stage of accepting it and denying it's racist implication (as you inevitably do)? Jim Carroll

The intent of the gangs is not racist in the main. The are involved in criminal activities to make money. To insist the gangs have any sort of character of their own is pretty stupid. They comprise of individual criminals, quite often with no regard for human life. Do you think for one minute that they would stop at a racially aggravated crime?

I may not know as much as some authorities but I know a damn site more than those who have only read about it and pontificate fro rural idyls.

"pontificate fro rural idyls" I've lived and worked in these places Dave - Mosside and Toxteth included for a time. I'm not questioning the existence of gangs, just the rush to judgement that this particular incident wasn't racist. Jim Carrroll

Jim, I did not accuse you of making anything up.Nothing to indicate this was the murder in question either

Rubbish! You have clearly not read the articles about it that you linked to and cross referenced with the report I quoted. It is the same death described and on the same date.

Dave, your attack on my post was purely personal, and not based on anything I actually said or on any fact, knowledge or evidence. You have still not challenged or questioned anything I said in it. Just personal.

Keith. I questioned that the attack was not racist. Nothing you have said changes that. And you have not come up with anything to justify calling it nasty either. Guess you must have just seen something I didn't write. Different language? :-)

Not sure on your point, Jim. I lived the first 60 years of my life in urban Salford and agree with you.

"Jim, I did not accuse you of making anything up." Liar "Please give details, because no UK news agency has carried such a story." There you go I said it was in the press, you denied it, therefore I made it up Somebody should introduce to to telling the truth occaionally = you seem a total stranger to it " It is the same death described and on the same date." Nowhere does it mention the Bomber in the reports and given the massive rise in racist attacks following Brexit, it cannot even be considered a coincidence It was simple manipulative journalism which happens all the time - put two articles up at the same time in the same paper and your readers will make the link - you need to read The Times to see how they do it.

I think you have made a mistake and should apologise PFR...your outburst is completely out of character....or I have you figured wrongly.

Iains was discussing the legal aspect, not denigrating the victims, and Mr Corbyn, though I support much of what he says, is not above making political points over tragedies.....in common with most politicians. Hope you accept this without rancour, as there is none intended. We should be able to discuss any subject here, as most of us know one another as well as family members.

Having gone through the links supplied related to Manchester gangs and gun crime - the gangs are obviously criminal in nature not "racist", I mean in those links on gun crime there isn't a single mention of a starting pistol being used (Thought you might like like that Al)

"Please give details, because no UK news agency has carried such a story." There you go I said it was in the press, you denied it, therefore I made it up

I myself found the French News agency story. You gave no link. The Mail just lifted that story which has now been dropped by everyone.

It was not a racist killing. His friend was a gang member killed in a feud with a rival gang. The killing was not racial and does not make Abedi a victim worthy of any sympathy. He was a Jihadi killing entirely innocent people and children for his cause.

"Having gone through the links supplied related to Manchester gangs and gun crime - the gangs are obviously criminal in nature not "racist"" Ah well - that's it then - the word from the top of the Mountain Mr T says it so it must be true - who needs more than that? Unbelievable!!! This has been concentrated on by those who do not wish to discuss Britain's culpability in the terrorism that is getting a toe-hold in modern society and need not have had the wealthy West played a part in helping the poorer people rid themselves of despots instead of arming anf supporting them for our own purposes. Jim Carroll

Abedi's friend was killed in a feud between rival gangs with no evidence to even suggest that race was an issue even in the quotes Jim produced.

Dave, you challenged my statement that it was not racist. You made it nasty and personal. "And you know all about Manchester gangs do you Keith?" " You really do live in a different world don't you."

There is absolutely no evidence that the gangs are racially motivated. They are just criminal and violent.

It was not a racist killing. His friend was a gang member killed in a feud with a rival gang. The killing was not racial and does not make Abedi a victim worthy of any sympathy. He was a Jihadi killing entirely innocent people and children for his cause. If anyone has any evidence to the contrary, let's see it.

Dave,You think that is nasty and personal? You really do live on a different planet.

Yes. Planet Nice.

You could have questioned that it was not racist without all that. You know. Like nice people do when they put opposing views in a conversation. No need to suggest personal inadequacies in anyone.

Yes, his friend was killed by a rival gang in feud. So what? How does that make it not racist? It could well be criminal and racist.

I have found nothing to suggest that those gangs are motivated by anything but crime. Can you find anyone other than you who claims that race is an issue for them? Any evidence at all? I have linked to several authoritative articles that all say they are criminal and the issue of race is never raised at all.

"You know. Like nice people do when they put opposing views in a conversation." Yes - they admit they are wrong, they don't try to win prizes and when they accse somebody unjustly and are proved having done so, they apologise and withdraw their accusation They never tell lies You fail on all counts "I have found nothing to suggest that those gangs are motivated by anything but crime." And you have failed totally to establish that this was what was said to have promoted these killings An example of your dishonesty This is not about people disputing whether these gangs are racially motivated - nobody is claiming they are - one of your red-herrings It is about what motivated this killer Al has just put in=t in a nutshell Jim Carroll

Al,he was a murderer, but his motive was religious and his crime was the mass murder of strangers which sets him apart from your average murderer.

Dave, main findings of the analysis were that: • violence in general, gun violence and fatal shootings in particular are concentrated in specific small areas of South Manchester• victims of gun violence in South Manchester are mainly young, black or mixed race males, who themselves have criminal records • those who have been victims of shootings are at increased risk of being a victim again • perpetrators of serious gun violence in South Manchester are mainly young black or mixed race males, who have criminal records • about 60 per cent of shootings are thought to gang related • there are strong social norms (in particular in providing evidence in court) inhibiting co-operation with police enquiries into gang-related shootings, which undermine successful prosecution of offenders • alliances are sometimes formed between South Manchester gangs, but conflict is endemic and easily triggered • gangs in South Manchester are loosely turf-based • there are significant differences in the origins, activities, and organisation of the four main South Manchester gangs known to the police, though members of all the gangs are involved in a wide range of criminal behaviour • gang-related criminal behaviour includes drug-related offences, but only as one element of a patchwork of violent and non-violent crime • gang membership is not just about criminality; for some young males it incorporates a credible lifestyle choice • gang-membership comprises a mix of same-age local friendship groups, blood relatives and recruits • the carrying of firearms by gang-members is part protective, and part symbolic, though they are also sometimes used in the commission of violent crimehttp://webarchive.nationalarchives.gov.uk/20110220105210/rds.homeoffice.gov.uk/rds/pdfs2/crrs13.pdf

Jim,Yes - they admit they are wrong, they don't try to win prizes and when they accse somebody unjustly and are proved having done so, they apologise and withdraw their accusation They never tell lies You fail on all counts

If I have been wrong about a single thing here, QUOTE ME. If I have lied, QUOTE ME! If I have accused you of making anything up, QUOTE ME! (You earlier quoted me NOT accusing you of making anything up!)

"If I have been wrong about a single thing here, QUOTE ME." If you have nbeen right about one single thing quote yourself An example of your lying distortion In none of the reports which reported the killer's sister's statement that he was motivated by the killing of his friend and the killing of children in Syria, is the name of the dead friend mentioned or the date that it happened, yet here you are turning it into a gang killing and acting as if you have "won something" Your dishonest is no more than a disversive tactic away from the fact that the West is largely responsible for the rise of terrorism in the world today - Isis would never have gained a toe-hold had in not been for the west's self-interested action and its selling arms to despotic regimes. You have already been given evidence of your accusing me of lying yet you continue to deny you have and ask for evidence One more time"Please give details, because no UK news agency has carried such a story." There you go I said it was in the press, you denied it, therefore I made it up" Don't bother any protesting more Keith - I have made my point (or you have made it for me Stop telling lies please Jim Carroll

No. There is none. You lie. I said it had not been carried by any UK news agencies BUT STATED that it had appeared elsewhere. You got it elsewhere.

Yes - they admit they are wrong, they don't try to win prizes and when they accse somebody unjustly and are proved having done so, they apologise and withdraw their accusation They never tell lies You fail on all counts

If I have been wrong about a single thing here, QUOTE ME. If I have lied, QUOTE ME! If I have accused you of making anything up, QUOTE ME! (You earlier quoted me NOT accusing you of making anything up!)

In none of the reports which reported the killer's sister's statement that he was motivated by the killing of his friend and the killing of children in Syria, is the name of the dead friend mentioned or the date that it happened,

Keith You have busted a gut trying to link this bomber to 'Gang killings', ignoring several basic facts He was from Burnage, not Moss-side, where the gangs you cited operated from He was a Muslim of Asian background, whereas the two gangs you cited, the Blood and Crips, are Afro-Caribbean You made it up to make a racist point and divert the discussion from the real problem of terrorism today, which involves the British establishment Nowhere has anyone attempted to link the killing which, it is claimed, motivated this guy to do what he did - all your own work You have had examples of your making things up enough for me to leave it there Much better if you don't apologise - it serves to underline your behavior Moving on - I suggest you do the same Jim Carroll

Jim, his friend was 18-year-old Abdul Wahab Hafidah. My ITV link identified the gangs involved, "A feud between two south Manchester gangs is behind the outbreak of violence in Moss Side which has resulted in two murders since December, police believe. Tensions between teenage members of the Moss Side Bloods - an offshoot of the infamous Doddington crew - and the Rusholme Crips have erupted over the last few months, according to a senior police source. " Give your sources that those gangs were involved and for their makeup.

The friend was a gang member and his killing was part of a gang feud and not racist. ITV link I provided. "are being linked to the feud. Abdul Wahab Hafidah, 18, was run over by a Vauxhall Corsa on Moss Lane East during the evening rush-hour before the occupants stabbed him in his neck and abdomen on May 12." http://www.itv.com/news/granada/2016-05-25/gang-feud-behind-outbreak-of-violence-in-manchester/

From your own link Jim, "A family friend also alleged that it was the murder of Abedi's teenage friend that caused him to kill. The teenager was run over and stabbed in Manchester in May 2016 in what is believed to have been a gangland killing. http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-4539734/Sister-reveals-motives-Manchester-bomber.html#ixzz4kGXf6D46

MSM link I provided. "Such anger was reportedly heightened when one of his(Abedi's) friends, 18-year-old Abdul Wahab Hafidah, was murdered in the Moss Side area of Manchester a year ago." http://www.msn.com/en-gb/news/world/salman-abedi-young-man-thirsting-for-revenge/ar-BBBxoOp

"Abdul Wahab Hafidah, 18, was run over by a Vauxhall Corsa on Moss Lane East during the evening rush-hour before the occupants stabbed him in his neck and abdomen on May 12. The violence began on December 30 when a 22-year-old man was blasted in the chest on Salisbury Street. He was lucky to survive. Then on March 22, Ahmed Mohammed - known locally as 'Mudz' - was fatally stabbed on Crondall Street. Police have previously said all three incidents are linked to a feud between 'established criminal groups' in Moss Side and Rusholme. The M.E.N.(Manchester Evening News) understands those groups are the Moss Side Bloods and the Rusholme Crips" http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/feud-between-bloods-crips-gangs-8043802

I haven't suggested any inadequacies in anyone. Just differences. It is you that say that my morality is shit while you live on planet nice, Keith. It is all there for anyone to see.

Al - Yes, you are spot on. A maniac, an arsehole and a murderer. But, as I said earlier, the more we understand about what made him that way, the better chance we have of stopping some other poor sod going the same way.

You did not juts try to claim, wrongly, that it was racist, you said of me, "And you know all about Manchester gangs do you Keith?" " You really do live in a different world don't you."

No need for all that shit in an up to then friendly discussion.

Jim,Where does it say his was the friend who his sister claimed was the reason

From your own link Jim, "A family friend also alleged that it was the murder of Abedi's teenage friend that caused him to kill. The teenager was run over and stabbed in Manchester in May 2016 in what is believed to have been a gangland killing."

And, "Such anger was reportedly heightened when one of his friends, 18-year-old Abdul Wahab Hafidah, was murdered in the Moss Side area of Manchester a year ago." http://www.msn.com/en-gb/news/world/salman-abedi-young-man-thirsting-for-revenge/ar-BBBxoOp

Where does it involve the Blood and the Crips ? Where does it not make it a racist killing the Abedi believed it you be? You claimed it to be a gang feud related murder and presented the Bloods and the Crips as the warring parties The policeman on te spot puts it down to a criminal act - a driveby shooting - no gang feud, no warring grous at all Those on the spot believed it to be a racist shooting "25 May 2017 - 15H20 Suspected Manchester bomber had 'desire for revenge'

His friend, also of Libyan descent, died after being stabbed by British youths in Manchester in May 2016, the source said on condition of anonymity.

"That incident stirred up a sense of anger among young Libyans in Manchester and especially Salman, who clearly expressed his desire for revenge," he said. "We were able to calm the young people in the neighbourhoods who felt they were targeted... as Muslims," he said. "But it seems that Salman did not forget the incident." You presented this as warring gangs in which Abedi's mate was involved - if it was not a racist incident, Abedi believed it was and it was part of his twisted logic that incited hi to do what he did. You have first denied that the sister's statement was never made and that I invented it and then moved on to claim the killing was related to gangland warfare - naming two gangs who had no part in any of it. The frightening thing about all of tehse acts of terrorism is that they are not being carried out by criminal gangs but, in the main, normal, often intelligent young people who have been driven into the arms of Isis and other fanatics because they believe they have been rejected by British society If you care to check the date of the killing, it happened right in the middle of the Brexit campaign when your mate Farrago was holding up his racist poster depicting hordes of Asians "invading" Britain - that is what makes it the possible racist attack Abadi believed it to be Jim Carroll

Where in the statement you have quoted have I suggested any inadequacies, Keith? I asked a genuine question and stated we lived in different worlds. Not worse or better. Just different. Now do you understand why I keep suggesting that we speak different languages as well? You read things into my words that do not exist. You call my morality shit. You say you live on planet nice while I, presumably do not. And you have the temerity to call me nasty! Unbelievable.

Jim, it was not any kind of shooting.The policeman on te spot puts it down to a criminal act - a driveby shooting - no gang feud, no warring grous at all Those on the spot believed it to be a racist shooting

You made that up. The kid was run down and stabbed. It was a gang killing not race related. From your own last link, ""We were able to calm the young people in the neighbourhoods who felt they were targeted... as Muslims," he said. "But it seems that Salman did not forget the incident." "I personally talked with him and tried to convince him that it was just a criminal act," he added. British media reported that Abdul Wahab Hafidah died after being run over and stabbed in the neck in Manchester's Moss Side district in May last year. His suspected killers are still on trial."

"Mr Johnson said 13 people were involved in the attack, with the first tranche of seven defendants being tried now and the remainder later this year. He told the jury Mr Hafidah had been chased by a rival gang, adding: "It is the prosecution case that Abdul Wahab Hafidah was himself the member of a gang and had gone into the territory of a rival gang. The defendants are all members of, affiliated to, or sympathisers with, that rival gang." "

"You made that up." Policeman's statement from the link"We were able to calm the young people in the neighbourhoods who felt they were targeted... as Muslims," he said. "But it seems that Salman did not forget the incident." "I personally talked with him and tried to convince him that it was just a criminal act," he added. The witnesses believed the attack to be racist - the police "calmed them down" - there is no indication that they proved it wasn't and there is no such proof There certainly could not have been immediately after the attack and, as nobody has ever been convicted of the crime, there is still no evidence of why it happened The report makes a point that it was "British Youths" - why, if it did not have a racial motive? I set out to try and understand why this man carried out this horrendous attack because I believe it necessary if further attacks are to be prevented You have decided to defend the possible racist element of this murder for reasons best known to yourself. I have done what I intended, I leave you to wallow in what your own agenda I don't expect an apology (again) for being accused of soething I have not done - that doesn't appear to be part of your make-up I'm off Jim Carroll

"It is the prosecution case " Exactly - what else are they going to say? I haven't the slightest idea why you should persist in denigrating an aspect of this attack which gives us a possible clue into the cause of this horrific massacre of so many people The family of the killer claimed he was motivated by what he believed to be racism - if that is the case it is part of our understanding of the bombing Why are you busting a gut to deny it? Are you really so concerned about defending British racism that you would wipe out a piece of possible evidence You surprise even me sometimes Jim Carroll

Absolutely, Al. I have never dealt in absolutes. I am sure there is some truth in everyone's posts. The problems arise when you get people saying that their's is the only version and everyone else is wrong.

Jim, it was not witnesses being reassured that it was not racism, it was local communities. Do you claim that the police were lying to them?

The murder took place in rush hour in front of horrified commuters. I know Manchester well enough to know that the crowds would be multi-ethnic, so this Libyan Arab was singled out for some other reason.

Dave,"It is the prosecution case " Exactly - what else are they going to say?

Do you suppose that the defence case is that they were just racists!??

The DPP, informed by the Police, say it was gang violence not racism, but what do they know compared to you Dave? You should tell them about your pub experiences.

Dave, it has become clear to me what a huge story this is in Manchester. Last year the horrific and brutal murder of a teenager, in broad daylight, in crowded streets. The large number of assailants who took part in the killing. This year the trials, and the connection to the concert bombing.

You must have been fully aware all along of the shocking details. You must have been aware all along that the police knew it to be a gang killing and not racial.

Yet you kept quiet about it. You did not want the truth to come out here, because it did not suit your agenda. Another shining example of your superior morality.

"what is the source of your disagreement Keith and Dave?" Personally, I believe it is no longer enough to put these attacks down to acts of "lone nutters" Al and the way to discover what else might lie behind them is to examine them in every aspect The fact that a 'usual suspect' is prepared to put in so much time and effort into denying racism towards our immigrant communities might be a possible contributory factor only confirms my view Jim Carroll

You are right to be confused, Al. I think I have lost the plot as well but basically the bombers sister says he became unhinged after that murder. Keith says that the murder was not race related. I say I am not sure. It is of no consequence really and I think we can just leave it at that.

Trouble with those attempting to portray the murder as being racially motivated as opposed to it being a criminal gang inspired act have to explain why the victim was specifically hunted down and killed - had it been purely a racist attack then any Muslim would have done wouldn't they?

"as opposed to it being a criminal gang inspired " This was a territorial dispute between two racially divided gangs, which makes it a racial attack An individual "trespassed into another's territory. The "criminality" of either side has yet to be established. Jim Carroll

"He thought it explained Abedi's crime." And no - I thought it explained no such thing I said that his sister claimed he became radicalised by the killing of children in Syria and the murder of his friend, which you chose to deny. I have made my position on the action of these people and the connection to British racism and British policy in countries like Syria and the Middel East in general Stop trivialising what I say by deliberately misinterpreting it Jim Carroll

"the beeb decided their genius was to reintroduce violence into the Irish political agenda." The Beeb was wrong, as is common in these matters It was the Prods wot introduced the gun into 20th Irish Politics via the Howth gunrunning, just as it was the Prods who drew the first blood in the 1960..... Troubles Jim Carroll

Having spent my formative years in Manchester let me assure you that gang were not just located in South Manchester, nor were they exclusive to any one group of people. Salford and Cheetham Hill were particular areas "controlled" by gangs and trust me on this one they were not of Afro-Caribbean or Asian descent.

I was not supporting anyone's claim. I was saying that it could well have had a racial motive as well as a criminal one. You speak as if the two are mutually exclusive. I can assure you that they are not.

I did not keep quiet about it either. There was no reason for me to post on Mudcat about it until now. Nor will I post anything compromising about Manchester gangs on an open forum for obvious reasons. But I have spoken about it vociferously elsewhere. How can you claim I have not when you have no idea where else I post?

And all your points about me are as personal and nasty as anything I have posted about you. You are nothing but a hypocrite of the worst order.

"But it was not a racist killing, and all Mancunians knew that." Nobody knows that, and certainly not you in your leafy cocoon You deliberately missed th killing of children in Syria, as is you wont"reported the killer's sister's statement that he was motivated by the killing of his friend and the killing of children in Syria," What are you on - lying tablets, as well as 'protect the racists' pills? Jim Carroll

No they would not have been treated differently. I have been on that turf and had to answer some rather intimidating questions. Yes, they were criminal. Racist? Probably. I was lucky enough to be part of the known Irish scene in the area or I suspect my treatment would have become more physical.

"Raggy doesn't seem to thing the motive was "racial"." So what? The killer believed the attack on his mate was racial - he coupled his belief with the slaughter that was happening in Syria and carried out his attack - that is the indisputable fact that Keith denied for reasons best known to himself Whather the killer's beliefs were correct is immaterial - his actions were inhuman For some strange reason, Keith has used this horrific event to mount a campaign on racism He has first denied the facts - the sister's statement being an example, then he systematically invented a non existent scenarion, ninking the original murder to a feud between two Afro-Carribean gangs Since then he has busted his balls absolving racism from the killing, despite the fact that it was a turf war event between two ethnic groups, Afro Caribbean and Muslim This is a totally unacceptable defence of racism Indigenous terrorism is rising at an alarming rate in Britain. In the wake of Brexit, the arrest of white terrorists rose by 66% So far this year, far-right terrorist incidents up to March accounted for 37% of all terrorist arrests, compared with 26% in the previous year.Keith's manic defence of an incident which might or might not have been racist only fuels this rise "But it was not a racist killing, and all Mancunians knew that." For Christ sake, what kind of madman could make such a hysterically insane statement - how the **** could "all Mancunians" know such a thing, and if they did, who has ever asked them? Nurse - the screens, th screens!!! Jim Carroll

"If I have flown the flag for racism, QUOTE ME, LIAR!" You don't really want me to dig up your "implanted" Pakistanis do you - or your attack on brainwashed children o the "lave-owning Travelling community? Do not call me a liar unless you really want examples repeated to you "The Greater Manchester Police reassured Mancunians" Do you believe everything A BOBBY tells you? To repeat, this killing was the result of a conflict with two racial groups, which lays it open to the possibility of it being racist. No facts, other than police denials have proved that not to be the case and your efforts to claim otherwise without proof become more and more bizarre Jim Carroll

"QUOTE ME, LIAR!" I just have done Can we just clear up this claim of yours that the police wrote this off as not being racist Following the attack they did so in order to calm things down - very laudable Since then they have described the murder as a gang dispute, with no comment whatever of the cultural make-up of the warring gangs - it is conceivable that this was a racist attack and a gang killing - the two are not exclusive. If the fact that these gangs are Muslim and Afro Caribbean have no bearing on the attack, that needs to be stated clearly and perhaps THE BRITISH POLICE are the least qualified to make such a statement Jim Carroll

Now you accuse the GMP of lying about the crime to the people of Manchester. Do you think the local media and people of Manchester would accept that? Of course not. The GMP knew it to be a gang feud. The gangsters would have killed the rival gangster on their turf whatever his ethnicity.

Can you name any single person or news agency who claims any racist component to the crime, or is it just you and Dave for your own political agendas?

The GMP know that it is easier to get a conviction based on gang membership that it is to get a race hate crime conviction. They extensively use joint enterprise provisions to secure convictions that could otherwise be unsafe. Do you think they are stupid enough to proceed with a prosecution for race hate when they are almost guaranteed a conviction by using the gang card?

And, yes, I could name a number of people who know that there are racist components in gang crimes but as they are serving police officers I will not do so.

"If the fact that these gangs are Muslim and Afro Caribbean have no bearing on the attack" - Jim Carroll

And here we have Raggy:

"let me assure you that gang were not just located in South Manchester, nor were they exclusive to any one group of people. Salford and Cheetham Hill were particular areas "controlled" by gangs and trust me on this one they were not of Afro-Caribbean or Asian descent." - Raggy

So it would seem that the gangs are NOT Muslim and Afro-Caribbean and that Jom has his "facts" wrong (Not unusual) and that the GMP were correct in describing the motive for this murder as being criminal gang related as borne out by the evidence - i.e. a large group on gang members from one gang deliberately pursued a person known to be a member of a rival gang ran him over and then stabbed him in the neck and killed him. The reason he was pursued and killed was because he was a member of a rival gang. It had nothing to do with his religion or race.

"Now you accuse the GMP of lying about the crime to the people of Manchester." The state has always lied when it suits them to do so "being economical with the truth" has become an accepted stock phrase. You have been given the situation with the police, you must know that so long after the Stephen Lawrence killing, the Police authorities still accept that it has not moved on from the institutional racism it found itself guilty of all those years ago. I told you why I believed they described the killing as not being racist at the time (and described it as laudable) Th local (and national) media invariably side with the authorities in matters such as this - pioneering journalism is the domain of the "leftie" press and the killing of one young man is so commonplace nowadays that it doesn't merit such what with what else is happening in the world today You choose to ignore it and continue with your defence of racism Your hysteria on this matter is becoming disturbing so I'll leave you defending your racism You will not respond to what Dave has just written just as you have not responded to anything I have You're on your own again Keith - King of the Castle - you musut have "won"!! Jim Carroll

"That is shite Dave. To get a conviction they have to prove that the accused did it, not his motivation. Gang membership is not even a crime.

Joint enterprise requires them to be present and involved during the murder. Gang membership is irrelevant."

Do a google search for a well researched academic paper on the subject. Maybe using the phrase

More than three-quarters of the black and minority ethnic prisoners reported that the prosecution claimed that they were members of a 'gang', compared to only 39 percent of white prisoners. This apparent 'gang' affiliation' is used to secure convictions, under joint enterprise provisions, for offences they have not committed.

"The reason he was in a that particular gang was because of his religion or race."

Not according to Raggy.

"let me assure you that gang were not just located in South Manchester, nor were they exclusive to any one group of people. Salford and Cheetham Hill were particular areas "controlled" by gangs and trust me on this one they were not of Afro-Caribbean or Asian descent." - Raggy

My mistake professor it was terikins who thinks me can read my thoughts, in my defence you and he are two sides of the same coin.

Terikins I refered specifically to gangs in North and North West Manchester, areas that I knew well when growing up there. I made no reference to gangs in South and South West Manchester although I was aware of such gangs in my time there.

"Have you found anyone else in the world who believes what you do?" Moved on from "all Mancunians" to world wide support - interplanetary intervention next stop Mad as a bag of ferrets!!!

Answer then. Can you name anyone from Manchester, or the world, or anywhere else who believes that shit? No. Manchester Police are not lying. It was not a racist killing. Your entire case is based on your utterly groundless assertion that the police are lying about this murder. You have no case.

"Can you name anyone from Manchester, or the world" You have had the publications who belive it Could reel of a few dozen Mancunians who do (from personal bitter experience) Tell us who you know from Manchester and lets see if they are included Stupid boy!! Jim Carroll

Manchester Police are not lying. It was not a racist killing. Your entire case is based on your utterly groundless assertion that the police are lying about this murder.

Jim has, quite rightly, pointed out that the police,including the GMP, are not entirely innocent of wrong doing at times. But even if that were not the case no one has said that they are lying over this case. Just that they chose the easier and more certain option when they prosecuted. Once again, these criminals can be and often are racist.

I find it highly amusing that someone who doffs his cap at the merest sign of authority, someone who obeys his "betters" at every occasion should refer to me as a lapdog. Unlike you terikins I am quite capable of rational independent thought.

I did notice there was no actually response to my mention off your inaccuracys.

Very pleased to hear that Raggy - got any examples of you ever having actually done that though?

Inaccuracies Raggy? You were directly quoted as follows:

"let me assure you that gang were not just located in South Manchester, nor were they exclusive to any one group of people. Salford and Cheetham Hill were particular areas "controlled" by gangs and trust me on this one they were not of Afro-Caribbean or Asian descent." - Raggy

Now then Raggy which one was "THAT GANG"? Up until this point in the thread we had only been discussing two at the most the one that had one of it's members run down and killed and the one whose members did the killing.

Also Raggy, rationally and independently using this thought process that you boast of can you explain the following apparent contradiction in your statements:

"I refered specifically to gangs in North and North West Manchester, areas that I knew well when growing up there. I made no reference to gangs in South and South West Manchester" - Raggytash - 21 Jun 17 - 01:03 PM

The following are the contradictions Raggy:

let me assure you that gang were not just located in South Manchester - Yet you say later that you made no reference to gangs in South and South West Manchester - Ooh Raggy you lying little Tw@t.

In my original post I made no reference to gangs in South Manchester except to say that gangs are not just located in that area. You may try and assume what you will, but just for once try reading a post before putting your knee jerk reaction in process.

Just who are 'you two'. Your diatribe appears to be addressed to Jim only. Assuming I am the other one, I have never said that GMP are lying. Just that they chose the better of two options when they prosecuted.

If I amy I will address one of your points though.

Neither gang targets ethnic groups, but they do target each other.

The individual gangs generally stick to the same ethnic groups. So by targeting another gang, they cannot help but target an ethnic group. Your statement is like saying that Abedi targeted concert goers so he did not target anyone else. Can you just not comprehend that it is not as simple as only targeting one group?

Keith I have just given you half a dozen links to articles which question the honesty of the police - these include statistics from surveys on trust Are you really claiming these don't exist As I said mad as a bag of ferrets. Please be good enough to GFY - you have long been an embarrassment to this forum Jim Carroll

Dave,So by targeting another gang, they cannot help but target an ethnic group.

Devious and dishonest Dave. The GMP said it was a gang feud to reassure ordinary folk that they were not at risk. It was an honest statement. He was killed because of his gang membership not his ethnicity.

At least you do not claim, as Jim still does, that they lied about it not being a racist crime, and he is wrong to keep claiming that.

Jim, you have not found a single person, publication or broadcaster that challenges the GMP's statement. Not even Dave. It is just you. You lose.

Your sick, twisted political agenda is not make people believe racism exists where it does not. "Britain is a deeply racist country" you say. Racist anti-Traveller signs "are common throughout Britain" you say. Obedi was just taking revenge for a racist killing you say.

Not worth it, Jim. He well knows my favourite saying about him but another is equally apt

"When I use a word," Humpty Dumpty said, in rather a scornful tone, "it means just what I choose it to mean—neither more nor less." "The question is," said Alice, "whether you can make words mean so many different things." "The question is," said Humpty Dumpty, "which is to be master—that's all."

"Not worth it, Jim. " I realise that Dave - just a little outraged that someone should use this horrific event to hide and defend racism by simply denying facts and ignoring possibilities That's Keith for you.....!! Let's leave him to it - maybe his Grand Theft Auto prize is in the post. Jim Carroll

If you do want to do something though I suggest you go back though the thread and find out what was actually said. My contention has always been that gang crime in inherently racist because these gangs are inherently racist. You do not get to be a member of that gang unless you belong to the right ethnic group. There is no reason that I would know any more or less about the crime in question than anyone else on here but I do have considerably more experience with Manchester gangs than some.

Thee "horific event" I am referring to is the killing of all those young people at a convert whiich you ahve turned into a competition"you lose you lose you lose you lose you lose you lose" That is what I consider sick It's about time you grew up and began acting like an adult instead of a competitor on 'Britain's Got Talent' You appear to have no grasp of the tragedy of the some of the subjects you constantly fould up with your desire to win something Grow up Jim Carroll

There is no need for me to support Jim. He is quite capable of looking after himself without any help from me. My argument has only ever been as I stated above. You are barking up the wrong tree while digging yourself deeper in. Not an easy accomplishment. I congratulate you on it.

"Jim claimed that racist killings led to the Manchester bomb outrage." You are lying Keith, and stupidly, you are lying on this thread Where have I ever claimed that I said that, according to the killer's sister, he was radicalised by the death of his friend, which he believed to be in a racist attack qand the slaughter of children in Syria You intimated that I had invented that - are you so fond of your racist friends that you are prepared to humiliate yourself in public "you lose you lose you lose you lose you lose you lose" Sick, sick, sick!!! Jim Carroll

Jim, We were discussing "why he did it or what he is." You said, "Not too difficult if you take the statements of his family and friends into consideration. They put it down to the racist killing of his friend"

I questioned that, and this exchange began. There was no "racist killing of his friend."

You intimated that I had invented that

Completely untrue. I actually linked to where you probably found it. You did not provide a link.

Dave, you supported Jim saying, "I was pointing out that if it was gang related in Manchester it could well have been racist as well. "

You said that even though you would have known that GMP had stated that it was not a racist killing.

""why he did it or what he is."" No - I was discussing the reasons that have been given for what radicalised them - you would omit any possible reasons that fit your agenda I put his sister's statement up - you claimed it hadn't appeared in the press (didn't suit your particular agenda) You have no more an idea of whether there was a racist element to the killing and you have refused to acknowledge the racial/cultural makeup of the two gangs. That is enough to lay claim to a racist element to the killing. Since then, the reason we are here has been totally forgotten by you ahd you have busted a gut trying to prove the unproveable - I wonder why, unless it is down to your own racism Some gangs in Manchester, as Dave has said, are racially divides and motivated - i know that from having lived there and I assume Dave knows the same - what do you base your hysterical claim on (you have now reached the point of high hysteria)? You won't even acknowledge the known corruption in the police and how much they are distrusted. Since the Lawrence murder, the police have been known to be institutionally racist and not so long ago, one of their commanders have admitted that they haven't moved on since. I don't know if the killing was racially motivated - that is unimportant - what is important is that the bomber thought it was and said as much to friends and family. Racism is an important issue in our relations with the immigrant communities - I have little doubt that it is a major factor in the rise in disaffection of Muslim young people who are no longer prepared to accelt the persecution, the prejudice, the 'Paki-bashing' mentality of some of our indigenous low-life. This is the reported situation in Britain today (from Wiki) "Although native British gangs are still active in the capital, There are a number of historical Asian gangs in London too, many that were initially formed to protect their local communities in response to racist attacks from the native white population, gangs such as the Brick Lane Massive. In the past decade, Tamil gang violence namely in Croydon and Wembley have been active such as the "Wembley Boys" and the "Tamil Snake Gang.[60] Tamil Hindu gangs in London are also featured as one of the many major ethnic gangs in Ross Kemp's documentary on London Gangs" This is a worrying situation and ignoring it with the vehemence you are doing (Christ only knows why) is dangerous Why not take your Little Englander head out of your arse and wake uo to the fct that gang culture is a threat to our well-being and our policemen do tell lies when it sits them You were quick enough to accuse the police of covering up sexual abuse when it suited your Islamophobic agenda to do so - why not here?POLICE RACISM Jim Carroll

""no UK news agency has carried such a story."" Same thing - you were wrong and refused to withdraw it The Manchester police have no right to make any such claim without publishing details - these are two gangs from different ethnic communities which, as is pointed out, now is regarded as a racist commonplace The fact that you refuse to respond to this and the racist and dishonest nature of the place proves that you are only interested in 'winning something' and/or protecting racists Unless there's anything other than dinials - done here Jim Carroll

The Manchester Police are quite clear it was not a racist killing. Who cares what you think?

The only person in the world who supposedly said it was is an anonymous "friend" of mad bomber Abedi, and that only according to one foreign news agency (but copied by Mail Online). That was weeks ago and the story was never picked up by any other publication or broadcaster.

"Who cares what you think?" You do apparently - enough to make my quoting a statement from associates of the killer into a a quest for the Holy Grail. Whoever said it - they were nearer to his reasoning than you and the untrustworthy police force you are relying on. The implications of the statement are far too important it suppress, as you are attempting to do in your efforts to protect the good name of the corner of Little England you appear to occupy Racism has always been an issue in Britain - a survey some years ago suggested that a quarter of the British people hold and have expressed racist opinions. There was a sharp rise in racist incidents a year ago, following Brexit - there has been a five-fold increase in Islamophobic attacks since Manchester - the killing has already started in North London If we don't want a race-war on our hands we are going to have to build some bridges and win some hearts and minds - bringing communities together is one of the ways to do that Apologists for racism appear to have chosen their side already. If the question of racism has been raised in this case, in needs examining seriously, not dismissing, as you have. Jim Carroll

It has not. It is not an issue, except that Abedi probably hated British people, as you clearly do. ("We are a deeply racist country." Racist signs "are common throughout Britain." Obedi's friend was killed by British racists.)

The killing of his friend was gang related, not racist. The Manchester Police are quite clear it was not a racist killing. The Prosecutors accepted their evidence and a string of gang members are on trial for murder.

The only person in the world who supposedly said it was racist is an anonymous "friend" of mad bomber Abedi, and that only according to one foreign news agency (but copied by Mail Online). That was weeks ago and the story was never picked up by any other publication or broadcaster.

"It has not. It is not an issue, " It has - it was reported by an acquaintance Your moronic dismissal only served to highlight the xenophobic nature of Little Britain "anonymous "friend"" And the only people to deny it were anonymous policemen who by their very employment, makes them unreliable on questions of race What the **** has "anonymous" got to do with anything - you choose to be anonymous (or maybe that's a point if favour of your argument - who the **** trusts you? Clown Jim Carroll

His supposed comment is the only evidence you have for your whole case, and you do not even know who he or she is! Or anything about him, or her!

Is he/she old enough to go to school yet? Have they ever visited this country? Do they have any English at all? If not, how are they informed about what goes on in Manchester? Do they have any serious mental issues?

"His supposed comment is the only evidence you have for your whole case," His sisrter was reported to have said it too It is not "my whole case" You have the documented situation with racially constructed gangs and why they exist You have the fact that the two gangs involved are made op of Afro Caribbeans on one side, Muslims on the other You have the fat that the police were forced to defuse the situation because of the racial mix as those in the vicinity believed it to be a racist attack All this you choose to ignore as if it didn't exist - which makes oyur obsessive denial agenda-driven "You lose." Six Moronic and sick Jim Carroll

We are now where we needed to be at the very beginning"YOU CAN'T TRUST FOREIGNERS" Before you deny it - that is exactly what you have just written Must put it in the same file as "cultural implants" Jim Carroll

Who are you quoting there Jim?" "Is he/she old enough to go to school yet? Have they ever visited this country? Do they have any English at all? If not, how are they informed about what goes on in Manchester? Do they have any serious mental issues?" Guess Keith - but no prizes There you have lumped being foreigners with having mental issues because what they have to say doesn't fit your agenda - anybody who contardicts you has to be foreign or a nutter I really would stop digging if I were you Jim Carroll

"If the "friend" was foreign he probably would not know much about Manchester gangs," Nobody claims he did Keith - your invention He reported what Abedi told him no more "Britain is a deeply racist country."" You've been given the statistics - one quarter of those surveyed admitted to racism - don't know whether they asked you - you wouldn't have told the truth anyway "Racist anti-Traveller signs "are common throughout Britain." Glad you've come around to that pint of view - all you were capable of claiming is that you had't seen one. "killed in a racist attack." Nobody suggested he was, just that it was possible that the attack he was killed in was a racist one Don't Christians even tell the truth on Sunday - JIm Carroll

Eleven days ago Jim claimed a racist killing was relevant to Abedi's atrocities. There was no racist killing. There was no credible evidence for one and hard evidence against from the police and prosecution service. I was right to challenge the false claim.

For eleven solid days Jim and Dave argued against me. I had to endure personal attacks on my honesty, my morality and even my faith, but I was right and they were wrong.

A source with knowledge of the police investigation said that Abedi is believed to have accessed videos online containing information about how to construct various devices, including those using TATP. Abedi downloaded material from a range of online sources, including the dark web, and the YouTube information was one part of a wider online picture, it is understood.

After the Manchester attacks a 22-minute video on YouTube and Facebook emerged, called "Jihadi ideas for lone lions". It provided instructions on how to make the type of explosive used by Abedi.

The video, produced by Ibn Taymiyyah, a Gaza-based group that supports Isis, showed a chemist making the explosive from scratch using items such as a funnel and coffee filter. "The filling can be used in closed places like restaurants and buses," the video says. "After the explosion, it's better to directly enter the place and eliminate those who are still alive, Inshallah." It has been taken down.

There is also a quote from the gruniard that states: "Terror investigators have confirmed that they believe the Manchester Arena suicide bomber, Salman Abedi, did not act alone when preparing his deadly attack on an Ariana Grande concert that killed 22 people"

Greg F When the latest discussion revolves around acting alone or with the aid of others it only be regarded as a diatribe in your very strange world. Trolling as usual, as you have zilch to say concerning the thread.