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We stop to clean up blood right away too. The bloodstains on the mat tend to discourage new students. ;-) <<

Drew:
We stop action and clean up blood right away too. It is other MA groups that use the mats who don't. I guess mybe blood is advertising for other groups, but I agree, it isn't a drawing card for aikido. (and thank goodness for that)
e ya later
Jill

Acting and dancing do not develop the whole person. Budo does, provided the person is willing to invest themselves. It is from the martial tradition that you find the admonition to take our training beyond the mats... to find it everywhere. To a certain extent this is true of any art, but it is not the thrust of the art.

Peter - you beg the question.

I train in Aikido so I can become better at Aikido.

Why? Why do you want to be better at aikido?

(I realize that at the end of this discussion we will arrive at a place of opinion based on our individual presuppositions, but so far as the above line could be said about any particular activity - fishing, speed-marshmallow-roasting, speaking backwards, lifting weights, etc. - you have done nothing to answer why you train in *aikido* rather than in fishing, competitive oregami, or any other activity.)

Tim
It's a sad irony: In U's satori, he forgot every technique he ever knew; since then, generations of doka have spent their whole careers trying to remember.

Well since in my personal experience i have seen incredible Personal Transformation, Growth and Interpersonal communication skills develop in several hundred beginning dancers, i disagree. seen countless clumsy, shy, frightened, insecure young people turn into dynamic performers with character and Prescence, giving them the self-confidence to take on other challenging aspects of their lives.
I see absolutely no difference in being concious of the Other Person whether in an aikido or dance situation.
Discipline and committment are what develop the person, not necessarily the avenue taken.
The purpose of the Arts is personal Development. All the Arts- visual, performing, martial.

Acting and dancing do not develop the whole person. Budo does, provided the person is willing to invest themselves.
)

Tim, I neither act nor dance, but I've known professionals in both for whom it is just as transformative a process, just as much a spiritual facing of one's boundaries and connections as any budo.
Washing dishes can probably do it do. It ain't the activity, its what you bring to it.

I see your point - I do. I am arguing to one extreme (even further than I believe re: the arts) so as to draw out comments and explore what budo is and how/why cleaning is a part of one's studentship/study.

Seeing as you both have limited the distinction between acting/dancing and aikido/budo, what do *you* think the difference is between acting and aikido that deals with cleaning (as Jon seemed to bring up that there was a difference there by his question)?

My answer would be that the effort-at-self-improvement and expression that is at the heart of any art (writing, painting, acting, dance, music, etc.), is the same attitude of the martial spirit. This has something to do with the whole-mindedness, presentness... "is-ness" ... that we find in Zen ("when you eat, eat; when you sleep, sleep"). The reason that I think you find the cleaning requirement placed on students in a dojo more often than you would in some other communal art such as acting or dance is specifically because of the tradition of developing the whole person, and the focus on always being, for lack of a better word, focused. Part of that development of the whole person is also humility, something cleaning gives away in bushels.

Tim
It's a sad irony: In U's satori, he forgot every technique he ever knew; since then, generations of doka have spent their whole careers trying to remember.

Nobody is Required to clean our dojo. No one has ever been told to pick up the mats or sweep them.We just do it.At least those of us who are committed to the training do, we have those who drop in when its convenient, conveniently after the mats are laid down, just like everywhere else.

I really fail to understand how cleaning the dojo makes one any more focussed than hand stitching the beads onto our costumes or mopping the marley or going from store to store asking total strangers if we can hang up a poster or putting on a pair of eyelashes,( all Required) Believe me, if you are doing anything in ballet class other than ballet you will probably get injured.

And if Ikebana is Budo, and Tea is Budo, and Shodo is Budo than i'm willing to bet money that Japanese pre-war dance forms are also Budo. Post-war? That would be Butoh.

You want humility? Take a ballet class.I have enough experience in both dance & aikido ( and probably enough karate as well) that i fail to see any difference between the two. An audition is exactly like a kyu test. A demo is a performance. Cleaning is cleaning.And i have seen dancers thrown out of the show for refusing to do any one of the above.

Hmm, seems when I offer reconciliation, Jo, you respond with more anger. Of course, I may be wrong in my assessment.

I really fail to understand how cleaning the dojo makes one any more focussed than...

It doesn't. You've missed my point. It isn't that one is made more focused by cleaning than by another activity. It is, rather, that because one is focused one learns from the activity. The jobs you describe for a dance troop are no better and no worse than cleaning. What really matters is how you do them.

And if Ikebana is Budo, and Tea is Budo, and Shodo is Budo than (sic) i'm willing to bet money that Japanese pre-war dance forms are also Budo.

Um, I don't grant that any of those first three are budo. They, much like my first point above, are ways in which the martial spirit or "focus" infuses the other things people do. So, your pre/post war dance point is not made on me... there is a way that dance can be done with focus, and a way that it can be done without. It is still just dance, not budo.

You want humility?

I try to find it everywhere, in everything that I do. This is what budo teaches.

Tim
It's a sad irony: In U's satori, he forgot every technique he ever knew; since then, generations of doka have spent their whole careers trying to remember.

Like aikido, washing dishes, ballet, for me the shugyo, focus, etc are there IF the individual seeks it there. For me, the cleaning is just cleaning, and I do it because it's the civil thing to do when one is part of a community. You contribute to making it dirty or worn out by using it, you contribute to making it clean by cleaning it.
Don't see it as either or situation, but simply how the individual chooses to regard it.

No one can give you an answer or explain to you why it (cleaning the dojo) is a necessary part of your training. As is true with the rest of the practice you have to find out for yourself. Is it an important part of training? Yes! I know that it is. Trying to convince someone else of it's importance is being a very kind sempai.

I think this is stated very eloquently. What I would add, from my perspective, is that as sempai/instructor I don't try to convince anyone of anything. I conduct myself in what I believe to be the most appropriate way possible, it is up to others to do the same or not as they choose. I can tell you that as the head of my own small dojo I have done and continue to do more work than anyone else including scrubbing mats and sweeping floors before anyone else even shows up for class. I appreciate it when others help. I can see quite clearly how everyone in my class behaves. If anyone chooses to pay attention to my example, they may find themselves on the path to discovering what I have about this issue. I firmly believe Aikido is about much more than becoming an effective technical practitioner. I have found my own perspective to have changed greatly over time. I can't expect anything from others, everyone is in a different point in their personal growth and understanding, and all of us have to figure it out for ourselves.

Well, I never liked a dirty dojo and I found it difficult to attract new students to a messy dojo so if the dojo was messy when I got there to teach class, I just started to clean the dojo. If people wanted me to teach class instead of clean the dojo, they helped me and class was delayed. If they wanted class to start on time, they went and cleaned the dojo, swept the steps, shovelled the snow, emptied the waste bins or did the bookkeeping before I got there. I have only so much time to deal with dojo stuff. I have to make a living too and have a family to deal with. So the only time I deal with dojo cleaning and that type of stuff is at the times I allocate to the dojo. As I pay dojo fees like anyone else even though I am the head instructor, I don't think I should have to spend any more time at the dojo doing things other than practicing than anyone else. So, if the dojo is not clean when I get there, I have a choice: teach class or clean dojo. Since a clean dojo is necessary for me to have a good class, I will clean the dojo or its environs first, then practice and teach class. It is up to the students. if they want to just sit around and wait for me and anyone else helping to pick weeds to finish, we may not finish until after class time is over. Class time is over and it is family or work time, I leave - no class. I pay the same fees as everyone else so who is to complain. I don't owe them any more than they owe me. We are all members of the same dojo. All our focus has to be on the dojo.

When people learn this, then they have started learning about one of the key points of development in Aikido - Joshiki no kanyo (the development of common sense). It goes along with Tai iku, Ki iku, and Toku iku (Development of the body, development of the spirit, and development of our ethics.) The saying goes: Tai iku, Ki iku, Toku iku, Joshiki no Kanyo. This is why we should be practicing Aikido.

Cleaning the dojo is good for self-discipline and humility, in my opinion. It also helps me feel connected to the dojo.

I also like how everyone hurries to grab cleaning items after training. I am reminded of the harmony that we all share in. Plus it's a good way to strike up conversations (especially with the time-consuming task of scrubbing blood off the mats).

Because I enjoy it and so far the more I improve the more fun it gets. Rocky's mention about Koens in a different thread would be apt just about now - I don't bother about the final goal. What will come will come.

Quote:

Jo Adell wrote:

And if Ikebana is Budo, and Tea is Budo, and Shodo is Budo than i'm willing to bet money that Japanese pre-war dance forms are also Budo.

Well actually Jo - Chado and Shodo are Do not Budo since they are not martial. It reflects the idea that consistent training in any endeavor can lead to enlightenment. This could include acting, dancing, and yes even pushing a broom if you were so inclined. Stranger choices have been made to find satori.

Thanks Peter for the clarification.
So my point is that any practice can be a "Do". We all walk on different paths.

Tim, I have been known to be overly attached to my opinions,and tend to get a bit excited about this at times! But i have seen all the things that you say dance ISN"T with my own eyes, so I did have to speak up. All depends on your own POV.

And having said that, many the times we have to pick up all kinds of little ballet accesories before we can put the mats down before class...

There is a shinkou shukyo group based somewhere around Kyoto that cleans toilets as a spiritual practice. Mr. Donuts employees are sent there to learn how to really clean and keep a positive spiritual attitude. If I remember correctly, the founder had a spiritual experience while cleaning a toilet once.

There is a shinkou shukyo group based somewhere around Kyoto that cleans toilets as a spiritual practice. Mr. Donuts employees are sent there to learn how to really clean and keep a positive spiritual attitude. If I remember correctly, the founder had a spiritual experience while cleaning a toilet once.

Charles Hill

I've had spiritual experiences using a toilet after a long stint of driving in the middle of nowhere in the middle of a Canadian winter at -50C. Does that count?

Guess it really depends on the size of the school and how much you pay. I think sweeping the tatami or wiping the floor is just good manners for the next crew who are going to use it. Its the same as cleaning up after yourself at the gym when you finish with a bench or machine.

I thought I'd relate an experience from the other day. We practice in a University mat room which is shared by many groups. When I came into the room the other day two guys were practicing submission fighting. One had his shirt off and was leaving pools of sweat all over the mat. The other had started bleeding from his nose and rather than stopping, had just leaked blood all over the room. These guys were on their way out without cleaning up their own mess until I asked them to see to it. When I did ask them to deal with it, they acted a little surprised and simply told someone at the front desk to come clean it up. This struck me as very disrespectful, of course. I think that having students clean the dojo and undertake other "menial" tasks is really critical to developing the right kind of attitude. It's like bowing to the teacher and the founder, we do it because it shows respect for what we're learning.

Wow. If I had a beautiful car I would love to wax it. When you own something you take pride in it. You take care of it. I don't get those who can't see the pleasure in taking care of something, especially when it has become a group activity. Surely no-one's making you Cinderellas scub the dojo while they dash off to the ball :-)

I used to live in DC with a bunch of students in an old church. We would get up at seven and rake the leaves in the autumn. See people going to work. Hear birds chirping, smell the morning... it would make us high. Monks sweep, I found it natural from day one. It's meditation, it's excercise, it's rewarding.

Is it training? It is if you want it! Sweeping is the best suriashi training you will ever find. Rythmically, gently, it is a dance in itself. Sweep, slide, slide, sweep, slide slide.... the dojos not THAT big anyway. Washing the mats... a great stretch and great for the legs, balance... you should see how the kids enjoy it here.

To those who aren't enjoying it, try to stop thinking about where you want to rush off to. Make room in your head and something pleasant may appear.

I'm just a bit curious about one idbit that popped up earlier in this thread concerning cleaning up bloodstains.

It was mentioned that antibacterial soap was used when cleaning, presumably to stop infections or similar.

Is this common in the US?
I mean, we clean up as soon as blood drips on the mat (dried-in stains are so difficult to clean) but just with a regular wet rag. I can't imagine what kind of illness one would be afraid of. Especially considering the most common ones (HIV, hepatite A) are virii, not bacterias, and would hardly be affected by antibacterial soap. So where does this paranoia stem from?

Hep C is the biggest worry - it can survive and be infective even in *dried* blood. It seriously decreases the quality of life of the people that have it, and there's no cure. HIV is pretty fragile outside of the body. My guess would be that soap and water (or just allowing the blood to dry) would end the likelihood of being able to pick it up even from an open wound (caveat: I'm a biologist, not an expert on infectious disease).
We use water with chlorine bleach to clean the mat. It doesn't smell good, but it works pretty well.

Is cleaning the dojo part of training? Why? What is the goal of this training? Is it idealistic to think that it is anything other than being sanitary? Does this ideal translate into American sensibilities?

Yes. Everything is a part of training. Breathing, cleaning, speaking, rolling and being rolled, are all a part of training. The idea of cleaning the dojo is to be socially mindfull and to take care of the place where you do most of your intensive training. It shows respect to the space where you learn and it teaches one to apply themselves even in the most seemingly mundane of activities. An aikidoka must always strive to apply themselves and to cultivate the world around them. This includes maintaining it as well as fostering growth.

Hep C is the biggest worry - it can survive and be infective even in *dried* blood. It seriously decreases the quality of life of the people that have it, and there's no cure. HIV is pretty fragile outside of the body. My guess would be that soap and water (or just allowing the blood to dry) would end the likelihood of being able to pick it up even from an open wound (caveat: I'm a biologist, not an expert on infectious disease).
We use water with chlorine bleach to clean the mat. It doesn't smell good, but it works pretty well.

-LK

OH works well as a disinfectant for bacteria or virus (I'm an ex-clinical microbiologist/genetic engineer). It also works as a bleaching agent to get rid of the stains. It does not harm mats or canvas and is relatively safe for handling as long as you don't drink it. It works well on blood stains on gi as well. It even works on old dried blood.