Irving v. Lipstadt

Transcripts

"'That you feel queasy about the immigration disaster 1Mr Irving. 2A.
[Mr Irving]
Yes. 3Q.
[Mr Rampton]
I am going to read on. Why does it make you feel queasy 4that black Englishmen should play cricket for England? 5A.
[Mr Irving]
What is left out here is what is also stated in the 6interview that he then said exactly same question as you 7and my reply to him on air was, what a pity it is that we 8have to have blacks on the team and that they are better 9than our whites. 10Q.
[Mr Rampton]
Why is that a pity? 11A.
[Mr Irving]
It is a pity because I am English. 12Q.
[Mr Rampton]
Are they not English too? 13A.
[Mr Irving]
Well, English or British, are you saying? 14Q.
[Mr Rampton]
I am saying that they are English. Most of them are born 15here, just as all the Jews in England were born here, most 16of them. 17A.
[Mr Irving]
Are we talking about blacks or Jews now? 18Q.
[Mr Rampton]
It does not matter. They are all English. 19A.
[Mr Irving]
The England I was born into it, if you had read earlier, 20the England I was born into, which is the England I come 21from and probably the England you come from, although 22probably a few years after mine, was different from the 23England that exists now. 24Q.
[Mr Rampton]
Well, thank goodness. 25A.
[Mr Irving]
When I talk about English, I am talking about the England 26I came from.

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1Q.
[Mr Rampton]
When did the Irvings arrive on these shores, Mr Irving? 2A.
[Mr Irving]
King Robert the Bruce, I think. We can go back as far as 3that. 4Q.
[Mr Rampton]
Where did they come from? 5A.
[Mr Irving]
Scotland. 6Q.
[Mr Rampton]
No. The Bruces came from France. They were Normans, 7beastly foreigners. 8A.
[Mr Irving]
The Bruces came from France? 9Q.
[Mr Rampton]
Robert the Bruce was a Norman princeling, if you like. 10Where did the Irvings come from? 11A.
[Mr Irving]
What do you mean, where did the Irvings come from? How 12far back are we going to go? 13Q.
[Mr Rampton]
That is the point, is it not? How far back do you have to 14go? Does it matter, Mr Irving? 15A.
[Mr Irving]
It does. You see, what I am saying in this entire 16paragraph is this. Somebody born in England of 1938, with 17all the values that I grew up in, grew to respect and 18admire and love, I regret what has happened to our country 19now. Sometimes I wish I could go Heathrow Airport and get 20on a 747 and take a ten hour flight and land back in 21England as it was, as it used to be. That is what this 22paragraph is saying. 23Q.
[Mr Rampton]
Yes, it is. It is saying that England has changed in this 24regrettable respect, that now we have all these black 25people in England. 26A.
[Mr Irving]
One wonderful thing about England, Mr Rampton, you may

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1disprove of it, is that privately you are allowed to have 2your own private thoughts about the way things go, what 3you would call a state of mind, and my state of mind is 4that I regret what has happened to the England I grew up 5in. 6Q.
[Mr Rampton]
That, I am afraid, Mr Irving, is characteristic of people 7that one may properly and legitimately call racist, is it 8not? 9A.
[Mr Irving]
Or patriotic. Patriotism is literally respecting the 10country that has been handed to you by your fathers, by 11your parents. 12Q.
[Mr Rampton]
You are proposing ---- 13A.
[Mr Irving]
I wish you would not interrupt me when I am speaking. 14MR JUSTICE GRAY: Finish your answer. 15MR RAMPTON: I am sorry, I had not thought you had anything 16more to say, I am bound to say. 17A.
[Mr Irving]
You interrupt my flow of oratory. 18MR RAMPTON: Carry on. 19A.
[Mr Irving]
I do not think there is anything despicable or 20disreputable about patriotism. You wish to call it racism, 21that is your choice. I call it patriotism. Respect and 22love of the country that I grew up, the England I was born 23into. 24MR JUSTICE GRAY: Can we just go back to the cricketers? Is 25the regret you feel about them playing for England or 26wherever because of the colour of their skin?

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1A.
[Mr Irving]
No, it is, I think -- I feel sorry that my England was 2unable to provide enough good cricketers, if I can put it 3like that. 4MR RAMPTON: So the answer to his Lordship's question is yes, 5is it not? 6A.
[Mr Irving]
No, it was not. 7Q.
[Mr Rampton]
You regret the fact ---- 8A.
[Mr Irving]
The answer was as I stated it. 9Q.
[Mr Rampton]
Don't you interrupt either, please, Mr Irving. You regret 10the fact, do you not, that there are not enough good white 11cricketers to keep out the black cricketers? 12A.
[Mr Irving]
Well, again this is probably a tendential answer, but I am 13not very well up on cricket and I am not a great 14cricketing fan. This is an example that I am not very 15positive about. 16Q.
[Mr Rampton]
Do you ever watch the English football team or any of the 17English clubs play football? 18A.
[Mr Irving]
If I do not watch cricket, I certainly do not watch 19football. 20Q.
[Mr Rampton]
Do you propose that the numerous black people who play for 21first class football clubs and for England in this country 22are not patriotic, Mr Irving? 23A.
[Mr Irving]
What I am probably saying is this, is that it is 24regrettable that blacks and people of certain races are 25superior athletes to whites. Now, if this is a racist 26attitude, then so be it. It is a recognition that some

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1people are better at different things. And perhaps you 2may wish to legislate that state of affairs away, you may 3wish to describe it as despicable, but it is a recognition 4and it is an objective statement about the way things 5are. They run faster, they jump higher and there is no 6disputing that fact. 7MR JUSTICE GRAY: Why is it regrettable? 8A.
[Mr Irving]
Well, it is regrettable in as much as it is now described 9as being a racist attitude, and there is disreputable to 10point out that there are differences between the species. 11Q.
[Mr Justice Gray]
You would like it to be the position, would you not, as 12with the National Alliance, that this country was a pure 13white Aryan race of people who went back at least as far 14as Robert the Bruce, for what difference it makes, would 15you not? 16A.
[Mr Irving]
Well, you heard what I said about taking off in that 747 17and landing back in England as it was, the England of the 18blue lamp and Jack Warner and when there was no chewing 19gum on the pavements, and all the rest of it. 20Q.
[Mr Justice Gray]
I will just finish. 21A.
[Mr Irving]
It is just an old fashioned attitude, I think. You will 22probably find that 90 per cent of Englishmen born at the 23same time as me think the same. That is what democracy is 24about. 25Q.
[Mr Justice Gray]
I am sure you have not been standing with a clipboard in 26Oxford Street either, Mr Irving?