Yeah, I'm still not sold. Scarf Porygon alone stops Double Rush singlehandedly (while Licki does nothing to stop Drilbur), while ckecking things like Misdreavus and Murkrow. Other attributes include Trace to soak up Chinchou's Volt Switch or whatever and Trick to screw up walls.

I find what makes Porygon good is its ability to come out on top versus almost any non-Fighting threat due to its power, bulk and especially Recover, allowing it to outlast many foes in a neutral fight. Licki may boast more bulk, but usually needs the coverage to beat most bulky opponents due to his lackluster power, and not having instant recovery does not help it in this aspect. This severely limits Lickitung in options as a result: running Protect reduces coverage whereas not running Protect forces you to heal more often, and become deadweight if it is 2HKOed at say 50-60%.

I also see you're underestimating the three move coverage Porygon can run with little consequence when Licki hesitates to do so, evidenced by the fact you say Tirtouga can setup on Porygon when the threat of Discharge exists.

How can Porygon possibly beat Sand teams when Lileep in sand walls choice Scarf Porygon? Snover, Riolu, and various Grass types are so much better better at beating Sand. Choice Scarf Porygon is not very good, it's hardly an advantage.

Discharge and Thunderbolt are very, very uncommon on Porygon, and even if you still have it you lose against steel types with shadow ball, or ghost types with Ice Beam.

Wish is just fine as recovery, the ability to pass it to things like Larvesta and Missy is invaluable because they are such good partners.

Lickitung's advantage is that it is more unpredictable. It could be a curse set, it can hit an incoming Magnemite with Fire Blast and kill it or really cripple it because you thought it had Shadow Ball or Dragon Tail, meanwhile you will always know that Magnemite can come in on a Porygon because it resists everything it has.

Lickitung beats everything it can wall in my experience, even things it hits neutrally, like Aron, Drifloon, and Archen, can still be defeated even if it doesn't hit them super effectively.

If I had Porygon in that slot instead, I would have lost the match probably. The Wish passing to Larvesta was very important as well as the one to Tritouga. You can tell that the Porygon just came in, threw out an attack or recovered, then switched out. It doesn't do anything for the team in terms of support.

That's pretty much the point of what people were trying to say, wasn't it? Porygon is a one-man army; Lickitung offers exceptional support. They function differently from one another, though I wouldn't say one is strictly better than the other at what it does. In the end, Lickitung arguably suffers greater moveslot syndrome than Porygon, and functions less effectively than it should what with all the Fightings about (I would have easily agreed Licki for A-Rank if that were not the case, but as it stands Zen Headbutt still does squat to Scraggy and Timburr). Porygon isn't as stunted by the Fightings due to it being able to go offensive (meaning it can at least beat weakened Fighting types before their Drain Punch and not lose to every Fighting type under the sun as a result) and Recover easily shrugs off most neutral attacks like Staryu's or even Murkrow's better than Wish. Trick also screws up defensive walls like Chinchou or the aforementioned Lileep (and turns them into setup fodder) moreso than whatever Licki can pull off.

Porygon loses to the same fighting types that Lickitung does, unless it carries something like Psychic. If you're using offensive Porygon to get more damage on fighting types, you lose bulk and you can't check Murkrow and Missy with it, so it becomes less effective in that regard. Lickitung still threatens with Paralysis, and stuff like Magnemite, Archen, Mienfoo, etc. are easier to beat with paralysis. Yes, 30% is not a lot, but granted the fact that Lickitung lasts for a loooooong time the fighting type will also have to switch in a lot, so 30% does add up over a few switch ins.

If anything, Lickitung shrugs off neutral attacks better than porygon because of bulk, I don't understand that if you have recover you're better off against neutral hits than you are with Wish. Lickitung can check Staryu and Murkrow just fine with Wish.

And if you want Trick on Porygon, you're using Choice Scarf, and if you trick lileep then you can't beat Sandshrew or Drilbur without the scarf so tricking is kind of a moot point.

But to be honest, I'm not sure why we're comparing them, aside from being Normal type and therefore countered by similar things they play quite differently. Porygon is like a Bulky tank beating common threats (like the aforementioned Misdreavus) with a great ability in trace and ability to heal up quickly with recover. Because of its great utility in beating random threats whilst still maintaining a good offensive presence it deserves A tier.

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As Cork said, Lickitung and Porygon just can't compare, they play differently and have different objetives on their sets. We were comparing Munchlax and Lickitung, two pokemon that have similar stats, similar movesets and play similar. We just can't compare Scarf Porygon with Curse Lickitung just because they have similar typing and SpD, we can't compare Bulky Porygon with Wish Lickitung, they have different roles that are needed for different teams. That's like saying Timburr is better than Riolu just because they play different against Sand.

Porygon should stay in A as it is a good Pokemon in its own, have different sets and is just amazing at hitting anything not labeled Fighting-type. Lickitung, however doesn't have that versatility and should focus either on boosting and phazing or passing huge wishes. Lickitung also needs more support than Porygon as it can't play alone, it must find itself with an appropiate team, something that Porygon doesn't need. For those reasons, Lickitung should be B.

I think you guys all forgot a major thing with Munchlax; Thick Fat. Munchlax has thick fat which pretty much allows it to resist Blizzards from snover while racking up damage on it with Pursuit/SR. Overall Munchlax can perform similarly to Lickitung but can check Snover way better imo deserves more praise than being considered a weaker licky.

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However, if using Munchlax you should be aware that Burn and Toxic cripple it. Rest is a very weak answer to that as the opponent can switch in a Fighting-type and Munchlax will be forced out while asleep, and sleep mechanics in BW really hurt this. Heal Bell can support the team better and still curse against Snover phazing it with Dragon tail for SR damage. Even with a resistance to Ice, Lickitung outclasses Munchlax against bulky attackers who rely on status to break through walls, and even against the regular threats, Lickitung will phaze and rack up damage.

I'd like to bring something else up now: Magnemite for A

It's currently placed in B but I think it is better than most of the mons on the list. With 20 Sp.Atk Volt Switch is an amazing move when the opponent doesn't have a ground-type or chinchou. If they're down Volt Switch spamming does a crap ton of damage as not much can switch into it. The ones that can (lileep and ferroseed spring to mine) are roasted by Magnemite's other moves (flash cannon, hp fire). Ground types aren't actually that hard to get by. Most of the Hippo or Drilbur switch ins are pretty obvious so you can just set up Magnet Rise and beat them. Yes, Magnemite can't switch into them but it can serve as a great lure. Bulky Magnemite is great because it can beat so many common threats like Snover, Lileep, Ferroseed, Bronzor, subroost Krow...
Scarf Magnemite is also incredible making even better use of Volt Switch. It now beats many of the things it already beats and some more like LO Mixkrow and Staryu. It can also 2HKO chinchou and hippo with HP Grass making it a great lure. It's such a good revenge killer for quite a lot of threats, its typing makes it seem quite bulky for a scarfer, and once certain things are out the way (chinchou and hippo lured with HP Grass) it can sweep very capably late game with Thunderbolt or Flash Cannon.

I still support Magnemite for A. Its role has changed a lot since it was tiered in B. As Prem said, Steel is uncommon in the meta so the usage of Magnemite should've gone down. However it has evolved into the bulky attacker/Scarfer it is now. Magnemite can fulfill different roles and even surprise the opponent as Cork have elocuently put. A rank.

Little Cup Co-Leader

Haha, that was October, this is now. I knew when I made that post that I had previously supported Licki for C, and Mag for B but my mind is allowed to change over 6 months :) Scarf Magnemite, for me, has slowly grown to be one of my favourite Pokemon to use simply because it gives you so much momentum and is fantastic at late-game sweeping. It's not hard to play round Chinchou + Ground types with HP Grass so it really is a great stand alone pokemon that can wear its own counters down and then sweep. Bulky Magnet Rise also has the potential to crap all over sand teams if they don't have Chinchou as once it's set up it can beat Drilbur, Hippo, Lileep, Water-types, Ferroseed, Bronzor, Pawniard that lack Brick Break (many sand teams drop Brick Break for Pursuit to beat Snover) and even other Magnemites.

I would like to bring up a Pokémon which is rarely used in LC, coming in at 141st in usage for March. However, in spite of this low usage, it is a very good Pokémon. Venonat, the prevolution of Venomoth, is a Bug/Poison Pokémon, which typically is not the best combination; it leaves it with four single weaknesses to Fire, Psychic, Flying, and Rock, while providing two double resistances to Grass and Fighting and two single resistances to Poison and Bug. So the question I'm sure everyone has is this: how could a Pokémon that is weak to Stealth Rock and which has no base stat above 60 be competitive?

Well, the key is in Venonat's surprisingly large bulk. With balanced 60/50/55 defenses, an Eviolite, and a speed stat which allows it to reach 15 Speed, Venonat is by no means weak defensively. Venonat also has access to the powerful Sleep Powder and Stun Spore, but that's not all: Venonat has Compoundeyes, which gives it a 97.5% accurate Sleep Powder, almost as good as Spore. Venonat is the fastest, most reliable sleep inducer in the tier besides Foongus under Trick Room, which is not a viable strategy in LC. Venonat's resistances are also a huge bonus in its favor: It can switch in on a common Fighting-type attack and take negligible damage due to its double resistance. But then comes the big letdown: Venonat's 55 Atk and 40 SAtk don't leave it with much power to handle threats once it puts them to sleep or paralyzes them. That's where Venonat's movepool comes in handy.

Most Bug-types have horrible movepools, but Venonat has many good moves it can use. Its support movepool is surprisingly useful, providing it with tools which allow it to fulfill a large variety of roles. For example, a moveset with Sleep Powder and Toxic Spikes would work as a useable lead, crippling one Pokémon and getting up Toxic Spikes on the free turns. Alternatively, a moveset with Sleep Powder, Agility, and Baton Pass could set up Cranidos or Scraggy for an easy sweep. Venonat could even pretend to be Purrloin with Stun Spore, Swagger, Substitute, and an attack. A moveset of Substitute, Disable, and Morning Sun allows Venonat to abuse its bulk and resistances to wall a large number of Pokémon with few options for attacks. It can then Baton Pass the Substitute or just attack to weaken the opponents' Pokémon. All in all, Venonat has a very good supportive movepool for a Pokémon in LC, and it has the bulk and speed to make good use of it.

However, some people may want to use Venonat as an offensive Pokémon. The best part is, Venonat can do that, too. With its second ability, Tinted Lens, Venonat only needs to run one attack to have perfect coverage. However, with a movepool consisting of Giga Drain, Sludge Bomb, Psychic, and Signal Beam, Venonat could by all means use its coverage to hit a specific threat. The best offensive moveset would be one that uses Tinted Lens with Signal Beam, but a Compoundeyes moveset with Sleep Powder for free attacks or boosts is just as viable. Unfortunately, the only boosting move Venonat can use is Agility, which severely inhibits its attacking prowess due to its lack of base stats in Atk or SAtk.

Anyways, I wrote all this because I think Venonat should be on the list at LEAST in the C-Rank, but probably even in the B-Rank. While almost nobody uses it, it can provide free turns easily, cripple Pokémon, set up a sweep for a slower Pokémon, or even wall the common Fighting-types with ease. Anyone else have an opinion on Venonat?

Here's the moveset I've been using:

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Ehhh...I'm not really feeling Venonat, sorry. I think it's fine in D-tier, as having an accurate sleep move and a resistance to fighting isn't completely useless, but it isn't great by any means.

The only set it can really pull off without being outclassed is the set you posted, Agility pass. the problem is that in order to actually pull off an agility you need to sleep something, as Venonat isn't scaring much with Signal Beam off of 11 special attack - it isn't making too many things switch out. When / if you sleep something you only get one agility so it has to be used at the right time or Venonat will be useless. Honestly if you want agility pass, stuff like mienfoo, deerling and aipom are better bets in most cases as they can come in and force a lot of things out which means more agility boosts or are just plain faster. They might not have Sleep Powder, but Minefoo checks so many things you often won't need it, and aipom is pretty fast and can even pass other boosts like Nasty Plot.

If it had any sort of physical STAB it might be a bit better, but base 40 special attack is pretty terrible and it has low base power STAB moves (like signal beam) to work with.

Any offensive set isn't that good, it has odd coverage, isn't fast enough to sweep, and still isn't overwhelmingly powerful or anything like that.

Hey guys, I'm really new to the LC tier, and am trying to learn more about it. But I have made a team with the help of the ever helpful and awesome user Jewzilla, who aided me with creating a team around a mon that is not listed in the viability ranking: Paras. Now, being new to the tier, even I know that Murkrow is omnipresent. She is a definite stop to anything the mushroom bug tries to do, which is problematic: if you can't beat Krow (or Misdreavus for that matter) then you aren't a very good mon. But that's where me asking you guys comes in. What do you guys think about Paras?

Alright, I guess I'll go ahead and flesh out Paras here, as since he is not even considered viable, people may not be familiar with his stats and such.

Paras is a Bug/Grass type with some fairly off putting stats: 35/55/55 bulk doesn't seem that great, and neither does 25 Speed (this gives Paras 13 Speed with max investment and a positive nature.) What IS appealing, though, is the combination of Spore, Swords Dance, and base 70 Attack. Paras is a versatile mon, with two fantastic STABs and a decent offensive movepool, it can be a force to be reckoned with, as well as a large annoyance to Sand Teams with a strong Seed Bomb and X-Scissor. He can also run Agility, letting him outrun anything in the meta without a Scarf while still doing some good damage. Spore allows him to set up easily, in tandem with Dry Skin, letting him get in free on the likes of Chinchou. It's double Ground- Type resist is also cool, letting it come in early on Drilburs and Sandshrews with ease and threatening them with string STABs.

Now, as I mentioned, Murkrow destroys this thing, so it needs some good support to be effective. He also has a huge Fire-Type weakness with its typing PLUS Dry Skin, so it needs a faithful Fire killer as well. The core I use with it has Offensive Chinchou and Scarf Magnemite, who help take care of opposing Houndour and Ponyta as well as Murkrow, respectively.

I'm not totally sure if this is the ideal set for this guy, but I've used it to great success when dealing with Sand teams. The keys of the set are the boosting move of choice and Spore. Spore allows for at least on turn of setup, which is invaluable to Paras. After an Agility is can outspeed most of what it needs to, almost definitely after two. With Swords Dance, however, it can 2HKO or OHKO a lot of the tier, even more so after two boosts. Of course, for this to happen, his counters must be eliminated, which can be hard when his counters are all mainly S Rank threats. Seed Bomb and X-Scissor are great STABs, hitting many things for good damage (aside from Flying-Types and such.). The choice between Seed Bomb and Bullet Seed is dependent on how scary you find Sub abusing mons, which I don't fear all that much (because most of my team happens to be OP :P). Overall, I've had good success with it, and really like it a lot.

So, after my boring and long post, I ask the question: if you were to rank Paras, how would you rank him? I would personally put him in C-Rank, as he is still handily beaten by Murkrow and Misdreavus, but can be a force when you can check those two with the rest of your team, IMO. How do you experienced LC players feel about it?

I think Paras is a bit outclassed. It's slow and weak, and in terms of how well it can sweep, it's far outclassed by both Anorith and Dwebble, who have a better offensive typing, a lot more bulk, and better stats / boosting moves. Paras is simply too slow, too weak, and too frail to be able to do anything- and its weakness to Fire, Rock, Ice, Flying, and Bug do not help it at all. I'd say E or D tier.

I think Paras is a bit outclassed. It's slow and weak, and in terms of how well it can sweep, it's far outclassed by both Anorith and Dwebble, who have a better offensive typing, a lot more bulk, and better stats / boosting moves. Paras is simply too slow, too weak, and too frail to be able to do anything- and its weakness to Fire, Rock, Ice, Flying, and Bug do not help it at all. I'd say E or D tier.

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Ah, I see. Thanks for the reply! I plan on testing both of those mons in place of Paras now, making changes accordingly to my former team. I do know that Anorith has very good sweeping stats, and his Rock/Bug typing means he takes Drill Pecks and Brave Birds better (though I assume he's not wanting to take those anyways.), but he lacks Grass-Type STAB (does he learn Seed Bomb?), so I'm wondering now how to deal with those Sand teams I see all the time, as he was my main (and honestly successful) answer to common sand abusers. What mons are really good against Sand? There are just so many mons in LC that I have no clue where to start!

Also, I'm really sorry for being an obvious n00b and probably a bother, but LC is such an awesome tier and would love to know how to be effective in it.

Ah, I see. Thanks for the reply! I plan on testing both of those mons in place of Paras now, making changes accordingly to my former team. I do know that Anorith has very good sweeping stats, and his Rock/Bug typing means he takes Drill Pecks and Brave Birds better (though I assume he's not wanting to take those anyways.), but he lacks Grass-Type STAB (does he learn Seed Bomb?), so I'm wondering now how to deal with those Sand teams I see all the time, as he was my main (and honestly successful) answer to common sand abusers. What mons are really good against Sand? There are just so many mons in LC that I have no clue where to start!

Also, I'm really sorry for being an obvious n00b and probably a bother, but LC is such an awesome tier and would love to know how to be effective in it.

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Hey bro glad someone is getting into LC. Regarding your last paragraph, you can learn more about LC in a more orderly matter with Battling 101. I'm pretty sure they will be willing to help you especially with the new IRC channel. Regarding the 1st paragraph, the main way people use to beat sand is Snover. Choice Scarf Snover can revenge pretty much any sand abuser and most sand teams are forced to pack something that can deal good damage to it (Munchlax Pursuit+SR, Pawniard Pursuit+SR, Larvesta gaining momentum off of Snover etc.) If you are hard pressed against sand, Choice Scarf Snover is usually the way to go (unless you have sturdymons like Tirt, in which Choice Scarf Porygon helps)

Hey bro glad someone is getting into LC. Regarding your last paragraph, you can learn more about LC in a more orderly matter with Battling 101. I'm pretty sure they will be willing to help you especially with the new IRC channel. Regarding the 1st paragraph, the main way people use to beat sand is Snover. Choice Scarf Snover can revenge pretty much any sand abuser and most sand teams are forced to pack something that can deal good damage to it (Munchlax Pursuit+SR, Pawniard Pursuit+SR, Larvesta gaining momentum off of Snover etc.) If you are hard pressed against sand, Choice Scarf Snover is usually the way to go (unless you have sturdymons like Tirt, in which Choice Scarf Porygon helps)

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Hey thanks man, I'll check out Battling 101 and will also try find a spot for Scarf Snover (Maybe over the Bulky Porygon I'm using right now, who may or may not be outclassed by something :P)

Using Agility Paras to beat sand doesn't really work, but Agility Deerling can. It sets up on Hippo fairly easily, outspeeds and OHKOs Adamant Drilbur in Sand (Hardly anyone uses Jolly) and can also hit sand team staples like Lileep and Magnemite hard with Jump Kick.

Using Agility Paras to beat sand doesn't really work, but Agility Deerling can. It sets up on Hippo fairly easily, outspeeds and OHKOs Adamant Drilbur in Sand (Hardly anyone uses Jolly) and can also hit sand team staples like Lileep and Magnemite hard with Jump Kick.

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Idk, maybe I just played players at or lower than my skill level lol. Deerling sounds cool; I'm familiar with how well Sawsbuck functions in the upper tiers, and assume that his pre-evo functions in a similar fashion. Good to know.

Little Cup Co-Leader

Venonat is one of the most reliable AgiliPassers in the tier imo. Its resistance to fighitng and accurate sleep powder give it a cool niche. It must be weary not to let insomnia krow switch in for free though, but at +2 it outspeed even scarfkrow so you just have to predict the switch in and the baton pass out quickly. I don't think agilipassing in general is a very good strategy though, and I think D rank suits it:

fat OP said:

D rank: Reserved for Pokemon that are mediocre in the LC metagame, but are decent enough to justify their use on some teams. These Pokemon are either usable but have no real niche, or are only capable of doing their specific task and fail at doing anything more than that.

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Only capable of doing its specific task and then is dead weight for the rest of the game due to frailness and SR weakness. Can't run any other set but agilipass. It's decent enough to justify its usage to support a slow sweeper like Cranidos or Cubone.

It seems a decent pokémon on paper, having toxic feet, facade, close combat and swords dance, but in battle it's pretty difficult to pull off. If you choose swords dance, it seems like it can setup and sweep, but it doesn't have any opportunity to do so. Everything OHKOes it or weakens it enough for the KO later with toxic and sand/hail damage. If, however, you choose to run Protect, it might seem like a good cleaner: the only problem is that it's completely walled by fighting-types by late-game, since Mienfoo will be at full health anyway and timburr can just mach punch while croagunk can vacuum wave and Riolu can copycat close combat or just use drain punch while tanking a hit or yeah no don't use this thing. He doesn't even 2HKO things like Lileep with close combat. He can't even defend itself against the most common priority, Sucker Punch, and if he protects on foo's fake out, he takes even more toxic and sand/hail damage.

I'd say C-Rank, as it's still a decent pokémon to use. " C rank: Reserved for Pokemon that have notable niches in the LC metagame, but have just as notable flaws that prevent them from being effective. Pokemon in the C tier often require significant support to be effective in LC. C rank Pokemon tend to face a lot of competition with the more commonly used Pokemon."

He requires a lot of support (wynaut/something that forces switches if you choose SD, Hazards/something that beats fighting-types if you choose Protect), but he has a notable niche in quick feet + STAB facade. He's mostly outclassed by Taillow, which has STAB Brave Bird to beat fighting-types and u-turn to quickly get out of menacing situations and has a waaaaay higher attack stat after the guts boost.

I think Slowpoke is a B-rank mon. I used it a lot and it is good. It does really well against most physical sweepers except Scraggy and is one of the best ways to deal with Mienfoo thanks to its bulk,typing and Regenerator. It has also great moves that Water-types doesn't have and regenerator.

I would say B rank because it has some flaws and competition with other water-types but it is still good.

Ok I read over the previous discussion about Shroomish and I would still like to bring it up again. I strongly feel as if it should be put into the B-Tier, for reasons that I will explain below.

First, I would like to bring the definitions of B-Tier and C-Tier into discussion.

'C rank: Reserved for Pokemon that have notable niches in the LC metagame, but have just as notable flaws that prevent them from being effective. Pokemon in the C tier often require significant support to be effective in LC. C rank Pokemon tend to face a lot of competition with the more commonly used Pokemon.'

By just looking at the definition of C tier, one can notice that there is a big disagreement with the definition and the fact that Shroomish is placed in that tier. Yes, it has a niche, but how on Earth is that niche counteracted by 'just as notable flaws'? Shroomish is one of the best Sand counters in the metagame right now, and is a far more reliable switch in to Drilbur, Hippopotas, Sandshrew, and Lileep than Snover or Cottonee are. None of the latter can shrug off a Toxic, nor can they take more than 2 super effective attacks. Shroomish completely and utterly walls every and all common Sand based pokemon in LC- as it can easily defeat Drilbur / Sandshrew / Hippo with Giga Drain and stall Lileep down with Toxic. It also doesn't give a fuck about Stealth Rock. No other pokemon can do it as well and as reliably as Shroomish. Even that is not all it can do- it's also a great answer to Water / Electric types, and can shut down opponents with Spore, too, making it incredibly hard to switch into. I don't understand how one can say that a simple weakness to some flying types and some Taunt pokemon can possibly even come close to being just as notable as the fact that Shroomish is literally one of the best Sand counters on the tier.

The definition of C Rank also says that C ranked pokemon require a significant amount of support to function well. I totally disagree that this is Shroomish's case. Because of Spore, Shroomish requires little to no support in order to do what it does- all it really asks for is a solid answer to Murkrow and the less common Natu- that's it! It can hold its ground against a majority of the tier and with Spore does not require very much support to wall Sand teams and do its job well. Plus, Flying types and Taunters are relatively uncommon in Sand teams, so Shroomish's weaknesses rarely hinder it from doing what it does best.

Now look at the definition of B-Tier.

'B rank: Reserved for Pokemon who are great in the LC metagame. These Pokemon have more notable flaws than of those above it that affects how they function in the tier. Their positive traits still outshine their negatives, but they require a bit more team support to bring out their full potential.'

This more accurately describes Shroomish. It has a notable niche- which is walling Sand, and checking physical / special attackers. It is a great pokemon in LC- it walls Sand, has a considerable amount of bulk, and can shut down nearly any opponent with Spore. It has good mixed bulk, acceptable SpA, and even benefits from Toxic, something not many other walls can boast. Yes, it does have notable flaws, but in no way do its flaws cover up its positive traits- quite the opposite, in fact. Shroomish requires a bit of team support, but it isn't completely helpless by itself, like the C tier definition renders it. B tier is a much more fitting place for Shroomish.

Now, before we get into a whole nother debate about how 'Cottonee is better than Shroomish' or how 'Foongus covers more threats', I would like to say that such comparisons stand little to no ground in this discussion. Cottonee is a completely different pokemon than Shroomish, for one, and fills a completely different niche. Shroomish's niche is to be a sponge and to counter the shit out of Sand teams. Cottonee's niche is to support and prevent sweeps with priority stun spore. That's like comparing Murkrow to Vullaby- the only real similarity is their typing and attacks, yet they're completely different pokemon with seperate niches. I do not want Cottonee to be mentioned when considering the tiering of Shroomish because they are two very different pokemon. Just because Cottonee is good at stopping DDance Axew or whatever at +6 doesn't mean Shroomish is outclassed. You can not say that 'because Pokemon A is good at countering Hail, Pokemon B should be degraded because it only counters Sand and doesn't do much against Hail.'

In terms of how Foongus and Shroomish relate- Foongus is more of an all-around wall and a check to Sand and Shroomish is a dedicated Sand counter and a check to everything else. Although their niches as defensive support pokemon are similar, again, they cover and handle different threats; therefore, comparing them is not wise in this discussion. Foongus walls Fighting types, and Shroomish walls Sand. You can not say that because Foongus walls Fighting types and Shroomish doesn't; Shroomish is outclassed. That just doesn't make any sense. Why don't we conclude that Foongus is outclassed because Shroomish is a way better answer to Sand?

I've ranted a bit but I mean everything I say in this post and firmly believe that Shroomish should be B-Tier. It is one of the tier's most reliable and solid Sand answers- and it should be ranked as so. If you don't believe my statements on how good Shroomish is, you can try it out for yourself.

Oh and also if it's ok with the mods I can reformat the list WITH SPRITES and stuff so that it looks a lit nicer and is easier to read, like the OU one.

I thoroughly back Electrolyte's argument for Shroomish to be bumped up. Having played it several times and used it a few times, I can safely say it is, as Electro said, one of the best Sand counters in the tier. Pure Grass type is a rare type nowadays, but shuts down sand well due to vital resist to Ground. Grass also hits common Sand pokemon for supereffective damage. The icing on the cake is Poison Heal, which allows Shroomish to switch into random Toxics from defensive pokemon and gain a huge partition of its HP back per turn, while having Eviolite bulk. Shroomish is an excellent pokemon in the current metagame, especially with access to the great Spore. It is definitely worthy of B rank.

I agree that Shroomish should be B-rank. It is a great Pokemon in the metagame. It has a pure grass-types which unlike Foongus gives a really useful resist to Ground which allows to do really well against Sand. Also, Poison Heal is really useful. It has access to Spore which is a really good thing.

Shroomish realy deserves the B-rank. Despite it has competition with Foongus. It has advantages like having a resist to Ground, superior bulk and Poison Heal which allows Shroomish to stay more.

I would like to know what about Slowpoke being in B-rank because it isn't on the list.

It is a great Pokemon int he metagame. It checks or counters nearly all physical sweepers except Scraggy and Murkrow. Regenerator is a fantastic ability for it since it allows Slowpoke to take hits from physical sweepers like Mienfoo and then gain 33% of life. It has a good defensive typing, giving it an useful resistances. It has great moves like Thunder Wave and Fire Blast/flamethrower that other bulky water doesn't have.

Nominating Bronzor to move down from B-rank to C-rank. It's pretty bad in my experience, it lacks any offensive presence, with absolute pitiful Base 24 attacking stats. This makes it pretty much set-up fodder for Scraggy, Shellder, Nasty Plot Misdreavus, RestTalk DD Dratini, Axew (yes, even dragons are setting up on this Steel type), and even Bulk Up Croagunk if it lacks Psychic due to its lack of offensive presence.It also has no reliable recovery, severely limiting its lifespan in the game. It isn't even that reliable at beating Drilbur against a properly built Sand team. Another negative point is that it absolutely halts all momentum that you had before sending it out. All in all, I think it's a sub-par mon that belongs in C-rank.
( p.s you should pretty up the OP o: )

I've taken it upon myself to make the OP look nice. Enjoy. I didn't put up sprites for E-Rank because I don't even think it's necessary to actually list Pokemon there. We can just say that all Pokemon not in tiers S-D should just never be used, period.
macle, feel free to copy / paste this whenever you get the chance.

LITTLE CUP VIABILITY RANKINGS THREAD

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credit to Hawkstar for the image

Welcome to the Little Cup viability rankings thread. In this thread we will tier LC pokemon into groups based usefulness. Here's a link to the stats in case you want to see a list of the Pokemon in the metagame and how often they are used.

Here are examples of the other tiers ones. if you don't understand, read those.

S rank: Reserved for Pokemon that are amazing in the LC metagame. These Pokemon are usually able to perform a variety of roles effectively, or can just do one extremely well. Their use has low risk involved and high reward exerted. Pokemon in this tier have very few flaws that are patched up by numerous positive traits.

A rank: Reserved for Pokemon that are outstanding in the LC metagame and can sweep, wall, or support the majority of the tier. These Pokemon require less support than other Pokemon to be used effectively and have few flaws that can be overlooked when compared to their outstanding traits.

B rank: Reserved for Pokemon who are great in the LC metagame. These Pokemon have more notable flaws than of those above it that affects how they function in the tier. Their positive traits still outshine their negatives, but they require a bit more team support to bring out their full potential.

C rank: Reserved for Pokemon that have notable niches in the LC metagame, but have just as notable flaws that prevent them from being effective. Pokemon in the C tier often require significant support to be effective in LC. C rank Pokemon tend to face a lot of competition with the more commonly used Pokemon.

D rank: Reserved for Pokemon that are mediocre in the LC metagame, but are decent enough to justify their use on some teams. These Pokemon are either usable but have no real niche, or are only capable of doing their specific task and fail at doing anything more than that.

E rank: Reserved for Pokemon that are atrocious in the LC metagame. These Pokemon have no place on any serious team.

I'd like to see Snover promoted to S-rank or, failing that, Drilbur put in A-rank.

Snover is the only "easy" solution to sand teams, as every other sand check (Cottonee, Shroomish, etc.) requires either a lot of skill to use or a team dedicated to the removal of sand, which then does less well against weatherless teams. It would not be a stretch at all to say that Snover single-handedly (branchedly?) stops sand teams from dominating the tier. Everyone knows about how it can revenge kill any Drilbur, Sandshrew, or Hippopotas that stands in its way, regardless of abilities that they have. It can also smash Lileep by taking its special defense boost away and slamming it with Blizzard, so it covers the whole gamut of sand teams. Outside of the role of sand-buster, I'd also say that it is the best bulky water check in the metagame. Chinchou, Frillish, Slowpoke, and Staryu are popular for their ability to wall lots of stuff or spin, and attackers like Murkrow and Mienfoo need them gone before they can sweep. Snover can smash all of them, while luring them in with the prospect of switching in on a Blizzard.

It's also the reason why I believe Drilbur should be A-rank if Snover can't be S-rank, or possibly even putting it in A anyway. Drilbur is really good, but just like Scraggy sucks because Mienfoo is everywhere, Drilbur is made less effective by Snover's popularity. While the usage stats suggest that Hippopotas is more used than Snover, in my experience, everyone at the top of the ladder uses Snover or weatherless teams. I honestly believe that sand teams are liabilities because one singular Pokemon just tears them apart so well. A well-built team with Snover should always beat any Hippo + Drilbur + Lileep sand team, and so I see no reason to run sand teams myself since all three of those are necessary to do well with sand. Drilbur can spin and stuff pretty well outside of sand, but that role isn't what put it in S-rank in the first place.

I don't agree with Hawk in thinking Snover is S. I agree, however, in terms of Drilbur. And I like to highlight what he said:

just like Scraggy sucks because Mienfoo is everywhere, Drilbur is made less effective by Snover's popularity.

Click to expand...

Scraggy was held back from S because of the popularity of Mienfoo, Timburr and other Fighting-types which made it require a bit more support than 'mons in S. Therefore, Drilbur, who needs Hippopotas + Snover Check should be placed in A.

But, even if we see Snover as a check it hardly does anything else aside from counter Sand. It hits hard, yes, but so does Tirtouga. Its role is very niche and even if it's the best on what it does, it requires a Rapid Spin user and a sure counter against Steels and Fire-types. Its speed is lackluster and very easily taken advantage of if not wearing a Scarf (as demostrated in The Next Best Thing thread). It's the very definition of A-rank:

Reserved for Pokemon that are outstanding in the LC metagame and can sweep, wall, or support the majority of the tier. These Pokemon require less support than other Pokemon to be used effectively and have few flaws that can be overlooked when compared to their outstanding traits.

Click to expand...

Drilbur fills the definition nicely too.

On the other hand, I don't think Snover is a pokemon who is, and I quote, "able to perform a variety of roles effectively" or "has low risk involved and high reward exerted". Drilbur can't fil the first sentence, and Snover can't fill neither of them, so~ yeah, Snover should stay on A and Drilbur should meet him there..