DATING MAZE #261 - Turning the Tables

Should she call him back if he fails to do so?

I am a single man living in the sunny Southwest. I really enjoy your excellent dating advice, but I respectfully disagree with your comments to Beth in "Almost the One" (Dating Maze #258). Even though this guy was a complete coward to never call back -- after saying that he wants to see her again -- why can't she just call him herself and ask, "What's up?"

There are many reasons why this man may not have contacted her. Why do we assume that all of the pressure to initiate the phone call falls on the man? Add that to initiating the date, selecting the place to go, and following up -- all of this can be pretty overwhelming. On top of that, many men feel as though we're constantly being judged by our date. Do our choices meet with her approval -- even though we don't know her well enough to know what she'd like?!

I am in favor of a little more balance, and a little less pressure on the man. I think it is absolutely acceptable for the woman to call the man to follow-up on their discussion about a second date. So I'm wondering why you didn't advise Beth to do that?

I also want to mention that from my personal experience, there's usually a reason why someone gets into their upper 30s or 40s without being married. I've found that the some of the biggest unresolved issues with women are related to their fathers, or to men in general. Personally, I've just about given up on finding a woman who I can marry!

Anyway, I think your column is great. I just think that you advice to Beth missed the mark.

Michael

Dear Michael,

Thank you for sharing your perspective on Dating Maze #258. Some of our female readers suggested that Beth call the man who began to plan a second date and never followed through, but what really got us thinking were the letters from men offering the same advice.

You're right that no one piece of dating advice suits everyone, because each person has unique life experiences, character traits, and perspectives on life. However, the advice we offer our readers is based on years of experience working with hundreds of dating and married individuals, and it can be adapted to different life situations.

We didn't want to add to her pain with a possible rejection.

First, let us explain why we didn't encourage Beth to call this particular man. She was in a great deal of emotional pain, and we didn't want to have her add to that pain by setting herself up for a possible rejection.

In our experience, most men who don't follow up on dates are not interested in going out again. A man may give the impression that he had a great time and will tell his date that he'll call -- even though he doesn't plan on doing so -- because he feels uncomfortable turning her down.

By avoiding an awkward situation, a man creates an uncertainty that can be agonizing for the woman who awaits his phone call. She at least knows where she stands when she hears something like:

I want to thank you for our date last night. After doing some thinking, I realize that we are two very different people, and I don't believe it is a good idea for us to go out again.

But when she waits for a phone call that never comes, she goes from being hopeful, to doubting herself, to feeling disappointed. She may begin to feel angry at her date for misleading her, and question her own self-worth. As a defense mechanism, she may even start to distance herself from having positive feelings about men in general, and that -- as you pointed out at the end of your letter -- can cause permanent damage.

Honest Apology

You and some of our other readers suggested a different reason why Beth's date never called her. Perhaps he was anxious or afraid of getting rejected. Or perhaps he had to deal with an emergency situation, and then felt too embarrassed to call when the emergency passed. You're right -- any of these may have been the case, and the best thing for him to do would have been to ask for a second date, even belatedly. Yes, he may have felt embarrassed, or Beth may have turned him down, but these are some of the risks inherent in dating.

A belated phone call should begin with an honest apology, and sound something like this:

I'm sorry to have taken so long to call you again. I know that it wasn't fair to leave you hanging. Can you accept my apology? I enjoyed our date and I do want to go out with you again. Would you like to meet next Thursday night?

Indeed, if the man expressed interest in continuing to go out, but never followed up, a woman like Beth could take the initiative to contact him, as you suggested. After a few days have passed, Beth could call to say, "We spoke about plans to get together this weekend and I hoped to hear from you about it."

But here's the catch: As she musters the courage to make that call, Beth also needs to prepare for an answer she may not want to hear. So only if Beth can deal with her own embarrassment and with her date's potentially negative reaction, it would be worth it for her to make the call or to send an e-mail.

But let's get back to the core issue: Even though we live in the 21st century, and logic tells us that a woman should be able to aggressively pursue a date, most of the men we know resent those efforts when they are made at an early stage of the dating process. Since it can often take several dates before a man gets a sense that he likes and is attracted to a particular woman, he may be turned off by her making a follow-up call at an early point in the courtship.

A mutual acquaintance could play "cupid."

Given that, there's an alternative -- and "safer" -- way for Beth to see if this man wants to continue dating. If the two of them had been introduced by a friend, or have a mutual acquaintance, she might ask that person to play "cupid." This third party can call the man and mention that Beth thinks it's worthwhile to go out again, and encourage him to do so. (In Beth's particular case, since they "met" through an Internet site, this option might not have been available to her.)

Unresolved Issues

Your letter added a new dimension to our view of Beth's situation. Now, we'd like to address your own. You remarked that many unmarried people in their late 30s and 40s have unresolved issues that may be keeping them from building a relationship that will lead to marriage. That is often the case, but there can be other factors that have made it difficult for them to achieve their goal. You then concluded that because you're tired of the emotional baggage carried by many of the women you've dated, you've given up on trying to find a good woman to marry.

If you've been disappointed by certain qualities many women you've dated have displayed, it may be more a factor of who you're meeting, rather than a general truth about the dating population. So we'd like to suggest are a few small changes that could make a big difference in the type of women you date:

1) Consider re-defining the qualities you are looking for, and narrowing them down to the four most important ones? Then, think about the criteria you've used in the past to decide whether or not to date someone. Is there a qualitative difference?

2) Next, think about how you've met the women you've dated. Did you meet them through friend's introductions or networking, at parties or social events, at a bar or club, at work or synagogue, through the Internet or a dating service? Which of these methods have resulted in dates with women who are close to what you are looking for? Why not consider focusing on using more of the "better" venues in the future, and on focusing on looking for those four important qualities, rather than on all of the criteria you've used in the past?

We believe that if you adopt these few ideas, you'll see a turnaround in the type and nature of the women you date. We don't want you to give up on the hope of finding a woman to marry and of building a home and family, which is what you seem to be on the brink of doing.

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About the Author

Questions for Rosie & Sherry can be sent to datingmaze@aish.com. Due to the large volume of questions received, they are unable to answer each one.

Rosie Einhorn (a psychotherapist) and Sherry Zimmerman (a psychotherapist and former family lawyer) are the authors of the newly-released book, Dating Smart – Navigating the Path to Marriage, published by Menucha Publishers. They are the founders of Sasson V'Simcha (www.jewishdatingandmarriage.com), a non- profit organization that provides programs and services in North America, Israel, and Europe to help Jewish singles and the people who care about them.

Visitor Comments: 16

(16)
David,
March 13, 2009 8:28 AM

Why does it suddenly sound insane when I turn the tables?

I, too, experienced the horrors of gender-confused romance.
I was initially attracted to the passive, disinterested, unassertive woman who seemed to radiate that exotic aversion to hurt and rejection we men find so incomprehensible!
I successfully passed all of the traditional mating rituals necessary to ensure that I was worthy of fathering her children only to discover that she had no interest in biological role models after the courtship phase was over.
The signs were at first subtle. She initially claimed to resent my refusal to do housework as if it suited me as much as being hurt and rejected! When I finally conceded to pick up after myself, she angrily rejected my compromise. By the time it dawned on me that she wasn’t kidding about working outside of the home as a professional, I could no longer deny that she had lured me into sweeping her off of her feet knowing all along that she had no intention of basking in the glory of my shadow!
The relationship left me with my self-esteem in a shambles, distrustful of women, but in command of a powerful lesson: I no longer take at face value the widespread lip-service paid over the past several decades to the virtue of female unassertiveness. If a date admits to having been to university, harboring professional aspirations, driving a car, or sometimes wearing pants, I immediately make it clear to her that if she expects me to take the heat she had better get back into the kitchen. And if my observation that women are really threatened by a confident man seems like an unfair generalization, to what shall I attribute the fact that I haven’t often dated the same woman twice in the past forty years?

(15)
Anonymous,
August 17, 2008 8:54 AM

Why did he call if he did not ask me out again?

At 50 I met a 60-yr-old Jewish man on a Jewish dating website. At coffee I had a better time than I expected as he was very businesslike and serious on the phone. We talked and laughed and after a couple of drinks and a couple of hours he walked me to my car and told me he'd had a very good time, to which I agreed. He made no mention of a future date and I smiled. A few days later he called me, asked me about my weekend and my 'dating' but, surprisingly enough, did not invite me out. I was not very comfortable during our phone conversation and sent him a text a few minutes after we hung up saying: "You are a much better communicator in person :-). How about a coffee?" and made a comment about it not being a habit of mine to give men my phone number in relation to a comment he'd made during our coffee that women put their phone numbers in his friend's pocket. I have not heard from here, no reply to my sms (rude!). Go figure men!
Cheers,
Aussie Girl

(14)
Kenny,
August 11, 2008 2:01 AM

Right On, Rosie and Sherry: Never call for second date.

The woman drops the hankie, the man pursues. If the man is no longer interested after the first date, he will respectfully let the woman know by not calling her for a second date. (The reason he doesn't call for a second date and the reason he may even go on a second date if she calls are the same: he doesn't want to be disrespectful and say "it's not going to work, I now find you repulsive." ) If the man is interested in a second date but the woman calls him first, she shoots herself in the foot because she derails his pursuit (since she is now pursuing) and kills his interest in a second date.The only possible things she could do if she does call (and she should not call) is to drop another hankie (e.g. "I saw an article you may be interested in") or dump him (e.g. "Thank you for the nice time, but it's not going to work" or "Do you have any friends you could set me up with?") - do not mention a second date. These are the only things that could possibly get the pursuit juices flowing again.

(13)
Evelyn,
August 8, 2008 12:44 AM

I agree with anonymous -- similar experience

I just want to second the comment from anonymous. I had a similar experience with a guy who did the same thing -- would end each date with a promise to make plans and then wait for me to contact him. Sometimes he came through, other times he canceled at the last minute, or was so vague it was difficult to pin him down. Oddly enough, when I stopped pursuing him, he came around -- but (fortunately) I had learned my lesson and moved on. Weeks later he renewed contact -- by forwarding a joke by email. I took the hint, and deleted it with responding.

I've discovered -- through trial and error -- that it is important to recognize and admit to myself when a man does not show respect and consideration for me, my time, and my feelings. It is easy to "test" with a short email or quick phone call. PAY ATTENTION to his response. In most cases, you will discover that his response was predictably disrespectful and inconsiderate (i.e., doesn't acknowledge your feelings, fails to apologize for not following up, etc) and it feels liberating to let go of any expectations that he will be something other than what he is.

Finally, when someone behaves like this, it's important not to take it personally. Remember that if he (or she) treats you badly, it's highly likely that he (or she) treats everyone badly.

(12)
anonymous,
July 24, 2008 8:57 AM

I agree.. and here's my experience to prove it

Dear Rosie and Sherry,

I read this article and it struck a cord with me. I am the type of girl that would NEVER call a guy if he didn't call me. EXCEPT just one time! The guy said he'd like to go out again and didn't call. Ten days later I emailed him. He responded that he did want to go out again. I thought this was amazing!! I really liked him. We went out again and then he didn't contact me for another ten days. Long story short, we dated for 4 months and it was the worst relationship of my life. It was 4 months of waiting and wondering. It was 4 months of torture. I fully attribute this to the fact that I contacted him. I set the tone that this behavior was acceptable. I didn't see his true colors and that he was not willing to put in a full effort for me. I think that its unnecessary torture for a girl to be chasing a guy that doesn't fall head over heels for her. It never changes, the guy always stays that way. So if he isn't contacting you now, then he'll never be the man you really want. I've dated every type of guy under the sun and that is what I have learned. Don't think that they'll suddenly become the man you want, if they aren't trying to impress and woo you in the beginning, then they most likely never will.

~A Reformed Serial Dater

(11)
Michael O.,
July 17, 2008 10:11 PM

Courtesy

Unfortunately, many people today have no common courtesy. Frankly, in this day and age of cell phones, pay phones, office phones, etc., I don't see how it would be possible not to have the minute or two to call and say, "I am totally tied up with...and will call again when the...is over" or some such. Anyone, male or female, who leaves someone hanging (a virtual stand-up) has a) no manners, b) no maturity, c) no potential for holding up half of a sharing/caring relationship. People have a zillion excuses for acting like selfish, self-centered boors, but the bottom line is that by doing so, they have done you a favor by letting you know not to waste any more of your time and self on them. Good advice.

(10)
Girl,
July 14, 2008 6:33 PM

Calling for Closure

If Beth was prepared to call him, and prepared for a possible rejection, she should feel free to call him, even if he has not expressed openness to that, so that she can get closure and does not keep wondering what happened to him, but can move on from him.

A man, like a woman, can bring baggage with him into a dating scenario which may make him more cautious and more hesitant to call. I think a man should be able to pick up the phone and call a girl, follow up on what he has said before, even if it means an awkward conversation. And he should be open to her calling him, and not feel threatened by it.

(9)
Elise,
July 14, 2008 6:21 PM

no one size fits all

I recently went camping with a single woman. She had met a guy she really liked. He gave her a piece of paper with his number on it. She called him. He called her back. They went out on a date. She had to go out of town on a business trip and promised she would call him when she got back. Well, she got back and couldn't find his number and of course he hasn't called her.

so, she asks...what should she do? The first date went very, very well and it is hard once you reach a certain age to find even a potential someone. She is sure that the guy thinks she dumped him...she knows a couple of places he mentions he hangs out because they came up during conversation on the first date...does she try going to those places and see if she accidentally/on purpose meets him? that seems silly and maybe even impossible.

these rules that require mind-reading seem so silly...can't people just be mature enough to take the risk to pick up a phone and ask a small question?

do you still want to see me or have you moved on?

(8)
Susan,
July 14, 2008 10:33 AM

Why Make It Complicated ???

I have never understood why two people make it so complicated to have a second date.
If you can see that he's just not that into you, or you can certainly see that you are not into him, simply say.. "Thank you for a nice time".

If you are into him and he SEEMS interested, at the end of your time together, just say "What would you like to do next week?" Then have something fun in mind to do together. You never have to sit by and wait for a phone call. Take the initiative, and ask outright. If he says I'll have to check my schedule or I'll call you.... then write him off. It's not that big a deal.
I have NEVER had to check a schedule if I really wanted to see someone again. Have you?
If he says to you at the end of the evening "Are you busy next week? Ask what night and make the date right then if you are interested in more time together..
If you aren't interested in a second date, then say that you have other plans, and Thank him for a nice Evening.

One thing that I have done, if I meet someone interesting out somewhere and it's not on a date. I always leave early. I will say goodby to him and say something nice, and give him my business card.

(7)
l,
July 14, 2008 6:28 AM

I think that if the woman has the guts to face the rejection head on its a good idea to give him a call. First of all, after a few days have passed without him calling, instead of being fairly sure that he's not interested, you know for sure, which provides closure. Also, from personal experience, calling back and explaining to the guy that his behavior was inconsiderate provides closure from the pain that he caused. It makes you feel that you've stood up for yourself and let go of the anger.

(6)
Anonymous,
July 13, 2008 1:45 PM

Boy, did this one touch a nerve...

Back when I was single, I was encouraged that it was OK to call the boy I liked and maybe even ask him out. I tried that, more than once. Problem was that even if the boys in question had liked me, they didn't like me enough to call me and ask me out.

B"H, I learned my lesson early (I was still in college at the time), and even though it took a while for me to find my bashert, it was very gratifying to have men call me and ask me out. Actually, it was gratifying to know that there were men who liked me enough to do that. My husband did most of the calling and asking out, and he still does.

Michael, sorry, but while it may sound old-fashioned, the fact is that most men who like a woman will call her ASAP, and if a real emergency comes, they'll call and apologize for the delay. What they won't do is expect her to do the calling. That's a truth about most (if not all) men that I had to learn the hard way.

(5)
Anonymous,
July 13, 2008 1:00 PM

Finding a MAN

I also am from the SW USA, single & 62. I was raised to believe that I need to find a MAN, not a feminized hunk of flesh with a testronic ego problem and thinks his planning of a date will decide the outcome of a relationship. Who needs counseling? A man takes the leadership in a relationship - he does not become a dictator, but the balance needs to be on his side by at least 51 to 49. He makes the calls and initiates the dates.

It would be OK for the woman to make the call in question if he had invited her to do so.

Its all about his relationship with Ha Shem. Not $$$, power, fame, physical prowess, or the date he plans. He needs to stop looking where he is finding women with those criteria. Does he want a woman who wants those things? or maybe those are only his perceived criteria. Read THE BOOK for what a real woman wants (should want).

There are a lot of reasons people are single and older - you need to widen your survey. As a single mom, I wanted to raise my kids in a stable environment and not bring in added confusion to their lives. Now I am having trouble finding a MAN who has my criteria in the spiritual factors & age with the added spark. Better to be single than married to the wrong one.

Listen to Dr Laura on the radio & get the crooks out of your brain.

Baking in AZ

(4)
Anonymous,
July 13, 2008 9:53 AM

Maybe he's just not that into you!

The character on Sex and the City had it right. Even if Beth called the guy and even if it developed that he overcame his "issues" and they went out again, this would always be a situation in which she did all the emotional work in the relationship -- not a good sign.

(3)
Anonymous,
July 13, 2008 9:17 AM

Response

As a single (late forties) woman, I am concerned with Michael's comments. First, I agree with Rosie & Sherry's original advice to Beth -- trust me, trust all my friends (male and female) when I say that if a man is interested in you, he WILL call, if he's not, he won't. And..from experience, watch a man's actions, not necessarily what he says. I take issue, Michael, with what you said about women reaching their thirties/forties and being single because of their "father issues or previous boyfriend issues". Until you've walked in that person's shoes, you have no right to judge/analyze. Perhaps, look within. My friends and I would all love to meet a solid mensch around our age. We have yet to figure out where they are.

(2)
HizLady,
July 13, 2008 9:14 AM

Where is the patience?

I'm 50 and have been single 7 years. I was taught that men LIKE to do the persuing. Where is the man's patience? Did it ever occur to him that the gal could be so nervous that she isn't really herself? I always try to give someone the benefit of the doubt...and a second chance. A lot of times people settle down and relax in a less formal setting than going out to eat for the first date. Ask again and go roller-blading, hiking or play board games in a group. That's when people relax and are real. I know I get so nervous that I chatter. When I calm down and don't feel like I'm being interviewed, things go much better. Everyone is unique.

(1)
Anonymous,
July 13, 2008 7:35 AM

Maybe Micheal also has issues?!I'm sick of hearing about girls with issues, what about the guys? I think guys have been indoctrinated by the "porn" culture that all they need is an x chromosone to pull the greatest date in the world.Time to get real! (and maybe also brush your teeth).

I just got married and have an important question: Can we eat rice on Passover? My wife grew up eating it, and I did not. Is this just a matter of family tradition?

The Aish Rabbi Replies:

The Torah instructs a Jew not to eat (or even possess) chametz all seven days of Passover (Exodus 13:3). "Chametz" is defined as any of the five grains (wheat, spelt, barley, oats, and rye) that came into contact with water for more than 18 minutes. Chametz is a serious Torah prohibition, and for that reason we take extra protective measures on Passover to prevent any mistakes.

Hence the category of food called "kitniyot" (sometimes referred to generically as "legumes"). This includes rice, corn, soy beans, string beans, peas, lentils, peanuts, mustard, sesame seeds and poppy seeds. Even though kitniyot cannot technically become chametz, Ashkenazi Jews do not eat them on Passover. Why?

Products of kitniyot often appear like chametz products. For example, it can be hard to distinguish between rice flour (kitniyot) and wheat flour (chametz). Also, chametz grains may become inadvertently mixed together with kitniyot. Therefore, to prevent confusion, all kitniyot were prohibited.

In Jewish law, there is one important distinction between chametz and kitniyot. During Passover, it is forbidden to even have chametz in one's possession (hence the custom of "selling chametz"). Whereas it is permitted to own kitniyot during Passover and even to use it - not for eating - but for things like baby powder which contains cornstarch. Similarly, someone who is sick is allowed to take medicine containing kitniyot.

What about derivatives of kitniyot - e.g. corn oil, peanut oil, etc? This is a difference of opinion. Many will use kitniyot-based oils on Passover, while others are strict and only use olive or walnut oil.

Finally, there is one product called "quinoa" (pronounced "ken-wah" or "kin-o-ah") that is permitted on Passover even for Ashkenazim. Although it resembles a grain, it is technically a grass, and was never included in the prohibition against kitniyot. It is prepared like rice and has a very high protein content. (It's excellent in "cholent" stew!) In the United States and elsewhere, mainstream kosher supervision agencies certify it "Kosher for Passover" -- look for the label.

Interestingly, the Sefardi Jewish community does not have a prohibition against kitniyot. This creates the strange situation, for example, where one family could be eating rice on Passover - when their neighbors will not. So am I going to guess here that you are Ashkenazi and your wife is Sefardi. Am I right?

Yahrtzeit of Rabbi Moses ben Nachman (1194-1270), known as Nachmanides, and by the acronym of his name, Ramban. Born in Spain, he was a physician by trade, but was best-known for authoring brilliant commentaries on the Bible, Talmud, and philosophy. In 1263, King James of Spain authorized a disputation (religious debate) between Nachmanides and a Jewish convert to Christianity, Pablo Christiani. Nachmanides reluctantly agreed to take part, only after being assured by the king that he would have full freedom of expression. Nachmanides won the debate, which earned the king's respect and a prize of 300 gold coins. But this incensed the Church: Nachmanides was charged with blasphemy and he was forced to flee Spain. So at age 72, Nachmanides moved to Jerusalem. He was struck by the desolation in the Holy City -- there were so few Jews that he could not even find a minyan to pray. Nachmanides immediately set about rebuilding the Jewish community. The Ramban Synagogue stands today in Jerusalem's Old City, a living testimony to his efforts.

It's easy to be intimidated by mean people. See through their mask. Underneath is an insecure and unhappy person. They are alienated from others because they are alienated from themselves.

Have compassion for them. Not pity, not condemning, not fear, but compassion. Feel for their suffering. Identify with their core humanity. You might be able to influence them for the good. You might not. Either way your compassion frees you from their destructiveness. And if you would like to help them change, compassion gives you a chance to succeed.

It is the nature of a person to be influenced by his fellows and comrades (Rambam, Hil. De'os 6:1).

We can never escape the influence of our environment. Our life-style impacts upon us and, as if by osmosis, penetrates our skin and becomes part of us.

Our environment today is thoroughly computerized. Computer intelligence is no longer a science-fiction fantasy, but an everyday occurrence. Some computers can even carry out complete interviews. The computer asks questions, receives answers, interprets these answers, and uses its newly acquired information to ask new questions.

Still, while computers may be able to think, they cannot feel. The uniqueness of human beings is therefore no longer in their intellect, but in their emotions.

We must be extremely careful not to allow ourselves to become human computers that are devoid of feelings. Our culture is in danger of losing this essential aspect of humanity, remaining only with intellect. Because we communicate so much with unfeeling computers, we are in danger of becoming disconnected from our own feelings and oblivious to the feelings of others.

As we check in at our jobs, and the computer on our desk greets us with, "Good morning, Mr. Smith. Today is Wednesday, and here is the agenda for today," let us remember that this machine may indeed be brilliant, but it cannot laugh or cry. It cannot be happy if we succeed, or sad if we fail.

Today I shall...

try to remain a human being in every way - by keeping in touch with my own feelings and being sensitive to the feelings of others.

With stories and insights,
Rabbi Twerski's new book Twerski on Machzor makes Rosh Hashanah prayers more meaningful. Click here to order...