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Additionally, Madara never took a blow from Tsunade that would have destroyed him. Besides breaking Susano'o, Tsunade never dealt any significant damage to Madara.

This depends on whether the Mokuton clone was substituted in before or after her punch, I suppose. Either way, he still took a Jinton beam to the chest and his own meteor to the everything, both of which he was only able to recover from as a result of the Edo Tensei regeneration. He's definitely been making good use of it.

There's a significant jump between "stuff of legend" and "more powerful than [...] probably all of them put together." Hiruzen was the stuff of legend in his prime, but I don't see him beating all the current Kage combined.

Hiruzen isn't even close to this kind of power, as the first on screen Kage he's the one who suffered most from power inflation so that's not much of a point you just made there.

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But it was after they knew he had 7 of the 9 bijuu compared to the rest of the ninja world's one with Killer Bee missing. Given the state of Konoha after Pain's attack, mobilizing the other nations to protect Naruto and stop Tobi from completing a plan he didn't actually need to do that much more to accomplish was the only logical thing to do. Madara's name is legendary now, but you're talking about an age where the only people who actually remember him were children when he was alive.

No we're talking about Oonoki who actually fought him and wondered why Tobi even needed to make convoluted plan since he should have been able to come and do to them whatever he wanted if he really was Madara. And that's just to quote the one guy who knew first hand what Madara's power meant back then because the author have had half a dozen of others characters making a case of Madara and Hashirama's power being so much beyond anyone else that they cannot even be compared to "regular" Kage.

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He used the Rinnegan to drop two meteors on Oonoki's face as well as avoid being curbstomped a matter of seconds after whipping out his Eternal Mangekyou Sharingan against two Kages + a Naruto clone + nameless fodder that stopped being useful the moment he started using his regular Sharingan. He's also used Susanoo's full abilities during this fight, launching projectile attacks as well as using its close-range abilities for defense and a combination attack with Hashirama's pollen, far beyond anything we've seen Itachi or Sasuke do with it. Claiming that he's not using all of his abilities is disingenuous.

Madara has a lot of hype, but based on what we've actually seen, I'm disappointed. He's ridiculously powerful in his current state, but his original powers certainly weren't godly, as evidenced by how quickly he had to start using the Rinnegan and the fact that even with all his extra powers he still took a blow from Tsunade that would have literally destroyed him if not for Edo Tensei.

I said he didn't make real use of it, not that he didn't use it at all. He used it to wipe out the ~15 thousands fodders and didn't use it once since he is fighting the 5 Kages at the same time. Susanoo's full abilities? What chapter was that? He has only used partially formed and uncloacked stage of Susanoo for the moment, both Itachi and Sasuke have used more advanced forms.
There is nothing disingenuous in stating that Madara hasn't used all his abilities when it's a blatant fact. Since the 5 Kages have arrived, Madara has only used initial stage of Susanoo, Mokuton and a few Katon. No Genjutsu or higher MS jutsu, no EMS and no Rinnengan jutsu. He also took no damage from Tsunade, she fell for his clone and was gutted.
What is however disingenuous is claiming that he would have been "curbstomped in a matter of seconds" against Oonoki+Gaara+Naruto's clone+ fodder army because he used a Rinnengan jutsu at his disposal. It's as disingenuous as claiming that he couldn't fight the Kage without Mokuton because he's using it against them now. If he hadn't those power then he would use something else is all.

We have at this point 3 main battles going on simultaneously, all three with Doujutsu users, all three must have a different taste. MS and EMS's power will be showcased with Itachi and Sasuke, Rinnengan's regular jutsu will probably be showcased by Tobi and Madara is showing off Mokuton.

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Originally Posted by Discerptor

This depends on whether the Mokuton clone was substituted in before or after her punch, I suppose. Either way, he still took a Jinton beam to the chest and his own meteor to the everything, both of which he was only able to recover from as a result of the Edo Tensei regeneration. He's definitely been making good use of it.

The clone was sealed before Tsunade even touched the ground, it was substituted after Oonoki & Raikage along with Tsunade punched his Susanoo to the ground and Oonoki's Jinton beam barely grazed Madara's cloth and shoulder. The only attack that really damaged his body is his own meteor and that's because from his own words he didn't even bother to avoid damage.

I wish he would use some more of the jutsu he had before. He's shown, what, 3 fire techniques so far? And yet all of them look pretty much the same.

I think he only used 2, the rest are just different translations of the same Katon.
I agree though, Kishimoto doesn't seem to have much imagination when it comes to fire attacks. It's all fireball and bigger fireball.

In the Yondaime flashback inside Naruto's mind, the 3rd had deflected more than one chakra blast from the Nine-tails. At this point he was already old and it was taking a toll, but who else in the village could even come close to doing that beside Yondaime?

I think he only used 2, the rest are just different translations of the same Katon.
I agree though, Kishimoto doesn't seem to have much imagination when it comes to fire attacks. It's all fireball and bigger fireball.

He did have, I think, Itachi, that one time, use a jutsu where he set a bunch of his shurikens on fire. I thought that was a nice changeup.

But generally yes, it is just fire balls and fire streams. I get that when all fire jutsu apparently are released from the mouth, it can be hard to come up with variations, but still. I mean, just off the top of my head, he could give Madara an attack where he spits out tiny embers over different locations, and if one of the kage accidentally nears it or steps on it, it bursts into a giant flame pillar. Just something different like that.

Hiruzen isn't even close to this kind of power, as the first on screen Kage he's the one who suffered most from power inflation so that's not much of a point you just made there.

The only comparisons anyone in the series has made between him and the previous Hokage is that he was stronger in his prime. That said, the point is that hype doesn't always translate into actual performance when push comes to shove, and that appears to be the case here with Madara if you look at how far his own abilities got him.

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No we're talking about Oonoki who actually fought him and wondered why Tobi even needed to make convoluted plan since he should have been able to come and do to them whatever he wanted if he really was Madara. And that's just to quote the one guy who knew first hand what Madara's power meant back then because the author have had half a dozen of others characters making a case of Madara and Hashirama's power being so much beyond anyone else that they cannot even be compared to "regular" Kage.

Oonoki is the only first-hand account we have, and he was a child when he fought Madara. That's like gauging Orochimaru's prowess based on Sasuke's impression of him the first time they met in the Forest of Death. It just amounts to more hype without much basis.

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I said he didn't make real use of it, not that he didn't use it at all. He used it to wipe out the ~15 thousands fodders and didn't use it once since he is fighting the 5 Kages at the same time. Susanoo's full abilities? What chapter was that? He has only used partially formed and uncloacked stage of Susanoo for the moment, both Itachi and Sasuke have used more advanced forms.
There is nothing disingenuous in stating that Madara hasn't used all his abilities when it's a blatant fact. Since the 5 Kages have arrived, Madara has only used initial stage of Susanoo, Mokuton and a few Katon. No Genjutsu or higher MS jutsu, no EMS and no Rinnengan jutsu. He also took no damage from Tsunade, she fell for his clone and was gutted.
What is however disingenuous is claiming that he would have been "curbstomped in a matter of seconds" against Oonoki+Gaara+Naruto's clone+ fodder army because he used a Rinnengan jutsu at his disposal. It's as disingenuous as claiming that he couldn't fight the Kage without Mokuton because he's using it against them now. If he hadn't those power then he would use something else is all.

The only thing Susano'o gains in the fully cloaked stage is a sword, which Madara has been having his Susano'o use for quite some time already. He has used every technique we know Susano'o to be capable of using (long-range attacks + melee attacks + weapon attacks + defense), and he's been more creative with it than either Sasuke or Itachi. Using the Rinnegan to heavily injure two of the Kages, nearly killing one of them, before the others arrived was a pretty good use of that as well. And it is a fact that he was completely outmaneuvered when using just the Mangekyou Sharingan - he would have been vaporized by Clone Naruto's Rasenshuriken if he hadn't used the Rinnegan to absorb it, as Gaara had taken control of his momentum and pulled him out of the safety of Susano'o's ribcage. That was the extent of Madara's standalone power without the aid of the Nine Tails.

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The clone was sealed before Tsunade even touched the ground, it was substituted after Oonoki & Raikage along with Tsunade punched his Susanoo to the ground and Oonoki's Jinton beam barely grazed Madara's cloth and shoulder. The only attack that really damaged his body is his own meteor and that's because from his own words he didn't even bother to avoid damage.

We technically don't know when he actually substituted the clone, but because of the uncertainty I'll retract that. The Jinton beam, though, hit the entire left half of his torso - you can even see by the cracks in the image where the body had already regenerated and where it was still regenerating. And I never denied that he intentionally hit himself with his meteor - but it was a clever way of incorporating his regeneration into his attack plan, which was already combining the Rinnegan and Mangekyou Sharingan. He's been making pretty good use of the ability.

I'm sure Madara was probably much more fearsome when he could control the Nine Tails, and Hashirama provided the perfect counter to that with his Mokuton abilities. But without it, he is definitely not the superior god-being he makes himself out to be, and it has been shown that he would have been taken out rather quickly by a couple of worn out Kages and a Naruto clone if not for the supplemental abilities he has in this form.

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Originally Posted by ChronoReverse

We've seen some subtle indications of the 3rd's power though.

In the Yondaime flashback inside Naruto's mind, the 3rd had deflected more than one chakra blast from the Nine-tails. At this point he was already old and it was taking a toll, but who else in the village could even come close to doing that beside Yondaime?

Someone really needs to get in on that monkey summon contract. I like to think that he batted them away with the diamond rod thing.

Last edited by Discerptor; 2012-03-08 at 12:11.
Reason: typo; added reply to Chrono

The only comparisons anyone in the series has made between him and the previous Hokage is that he was stronger in his prime. That said, the point is that hype doesn't always translate into actual performance when push comes to shove, and that appears to be the case here with Madara if you look at how far his own abilities got him.

You haven't seen Madara's old abilities. You claim without basis they aren't that much because he's using his current powers.

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Oonoki is the only first-hand account we have, and he was a child when he fought Madara. That's like gauging Orochimaru's prowess based on Sasuke's impression of him the first time they met in the Forest of Death. It just amounts to more hype without much basis.

He wasn't a child, he was near his twenty considering the timeline and that's a ridiculous rationalization anyway. What you're doing right now is simply ignoring what the manga is showing you with increasingly absurd arguments. Oonoki was too young, Dan doesn't know what he is talking about, Kabuto is crazy, Madara is falsely boasting, the author is mistaken, etc.
And all the while you wave away the fact he has the complete upper hand against the 5 Kages fighting together with nothing but Susanoo and Mokuton (ie those power of old he's talking about) because he showed that he also had Rinnengan power prior to the arrival of A, Tsunade and Mei.

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The only thing Susano'o gains in the fully cloaked stage is a sword, which Madara has been having his Susano'o use for quite some time already. He has used every technique we know Susano'o to be capable of using (long-range attacks + melee attacks + weapon attacks + defense), and he's been more creative with it than either Sasuke or Itachi. Using the Rinnegan to heavily injure two of the Kages, nearly killing one of them, before the others arrived was a pretty good use of that as well. And it is a fact that he was completely outmaneuvered when using just the Mangekyou Sharingan - he would have been vaporized by Clone Naruto's Rasenshuriken if he hadn't used the Rinnegan to absorb it, as Gaara had taken control of his momentum and pulled him out of the safety of Susano'o's ribcage. That was the extent of Madara's standalone power without the aid of the Nine Tails.

The sword doesn't come with higher manifestation of Susanoo, they can use it at any stage. What come with higher level is more potency and defense and potentially use of other MS powers like Genjutsu bottle for Itachi and Amaterasu's ball for Sasuke. And no, Madara has done nothing with Susanoo we haven't seen from both Itachi and Susanoo (except materializing its legs which played no part in the battle).

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The Jinton beam, though, hit the entire left half of his torso - you can even see by the cracks in the image where the body had already regenerated and where it was still regenerating.

There are always cracks on the Edo-Tensei body, you can see those crack on his armor and face during the very first panel Edo-Madara appeared before anyone even tried to touch him. The beam merely grazed Madara enough to reveal what was underneath his shirt. The only part of his body it "wounded" and needed regeneration was the small top of his shoulder.

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And I never denied that he intentionally hit himself with his meteor - but it was a clever way of incorporating his regeneration into his attack plan, which was already combining the Rinnegan and Mangekyou Sharingan. He's been making pretty good use of the ability.
I'm sure Madara was probably much more fearsome when he could control the Nine Tails, and Hashirama provided the perfect counter to that with his Mokuton abilities. But without it, he is definitely not the superior god-being he makes himself out to be, and it has been shown that he would have been taken out rather quickly by a couple of worn out Kages and a Naruto clone if not for the supplemental abilities he has in this form.

Why? It was inconsequential to the attack itself, he could have powered up Susanoo or hide underground or protect himself with Mokuton or with Chibaku Tensei, etc. Being an Edo-Tensei only means he doesn't even have to care about defense most of the time, not that he cannot defend himself if he so wished.
That's what you don't seem to understand since the beginning really. You act as if Madara can only answer to an attack the way he chose to do it. It's a fallacy, the fact that he chose to protect against an attack with the Preta Path ability doesn't mean he had no conceivable way of doing the same with another of his numerous power.

i liked how kish tried to scare us into thinking tsunade actually had a chance in hell of beating madara. and a new forbidden unseen jutsu from her is not gonna cut it. and trust me we know forbidden jutsu have a heavy price, (Her life). and after all the will of talk, i guess it doesnt work on kabuto created edo-tensei huh. the fact is kishi is setting up the forgiveness of sasuke. the uchiha bros will somehow save everyone by taking down kabuto and thus madara, the word will get out and operation save sasuke will be completed. tsunade defeating madara YEAH RIGHT.

You haven't seen Madara's old abilities. You claim without basis they aren't that much because he's using his current powers.

We did see them before he was forced to whip out the Rinnegan and even after that as he used it throughout the fight.

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He wasn't a child, he was near his twenty considering the timeline and that's a ridiculous rationalization anyway. What you're doing right now is simply ignoring what the manga is showing you with increasingly absurd arguments. Oonoki was too young, Dan doesn't know what he is talking about, Kabuto is crazy, Madara is falsely boasting, the author is mistaken, etc.

I see you've decided to outright make up things to pretend I said so you can build a strawman to argue with. How quaint.

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And all the while you wave away the fact he has the complete upper hand against the 5 Kages fighting together with nothing but Susanoo and Mokuton (ie those power of old he's talking about) because he showed that he also had Rinnengan power prior to the arrival of A, Tsunade and Mei.

And he has been using Susano'o, Mokuton, the Rinnegan, Edo Tensei regeneration, and an unlimited chakra supply from being a zombie.

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The sword doesn't come with higher manifestation of Susanoo, they can use it at any stage.

Apparently not Sasuke's or Itachi's.

[quote]What come with higher level is more potency and defense and potentially use of other MS powers like Genjutsu bottle for Itachi and Amaterasu's ball for Sasuke. And no, Madara has done nothing with Susanoo we haven't seen from both Itachi and Susanoo (except materializing its legs which played no part in the battle).[/quote
The genjutsu bottle was part of the sword Itachi's Susano'o only manifests in its armored state. Same applies to the Amaterasu sword for Sasuke.

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There are always cracks on the Edo-Tensei body, you can see those crack on his armor and face during the very first panel Edo-Madara appeared before anyone even tried to touch him. The beam merely grazed Madara enough to reveal what was underneath his shirt. The only part of his body it "wounded" and needed regeneration was the small top of his shoulder.

The cracking is always more pronounced at sites of regeneration, and that would be quite the interesting graze to shoot off the shoulder and the armor on the front but not actually hit anything on the front.

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Why? It was inconsequential to the attack itself, he could have powered up Susanoo or hide underground or protect himself with Mokuton or with Chibaku Tensei, etc. Being an Edo-Tensei only means he doesn't even have to care about defense most of the time, not that he cannot defend himself if he so wished.
That's what you don't seem to understand since the beginning really. You act as if Madara can only answer to an attack the way he chose to do it. It's a fallacy, the fact that he chose to protect against an attack with the Preta Path ability doesn't mean he had no conceivable way of doing the same with another of his numerous power.

Again putting words in my mouth. I said he's been making good use of it, not that in that specific instance he would have had to use it to survive (though the Jinton beam would have more more permanent damage without that feature). That said, he did have to use the Rinnegan to survive that Rasenshuriken, because he was unable to make hand seals or use Susano'o for defense, all while being dragged through the air by Gaara's sand.

Either way, since you've lowered yourself to the level of making up things to argue with (when did I say anything about Dan, Kabuto, or the author, let alone criticisms as specific as the ones you pretended I made?), I'm done with having this discussion with you. It's impossible to have a conversation with someone willing to pretend I say things I don't.

I think he only used 2, the rest are just different translations of the same Katon.
I agree though, Kishimoto doesn't seem to have much imagination when it comes to fire attacks. It's all fireball and bigger fireball.

Sasuke used the Phoenix Fire back in the Forest of Death(?) against Orochi.

Also, could that meteor be the "new technique" that comes with the EMS Itachi was talking about? It does require hand seals from the Susano'o. It would be interesting what Naruto has to answer to that cataclysmic spell.

Also, could that meteor be the "new technique" that comes with the EMS Itachi was talking about? It does require hand seals from the Susano'o. It would be interesting what Naruto has to answer to that cataclysmic spell.

No, the meteor ability is derived from the combination of Rinnegan and MS. And while the EMS is a gateway to the Rinnegan, it is not specifically the Rinnegan.

In the Yondaime flashback inside Naruto's mind, the 3rd had deflected more than one chakra blast from the Nine-tails. At this point he was already old and it was taking a toll, but who else in the village could even come close to doing that beside Yondaime?

When did that happen? the Kyuubi fired one blast that the yondaime teleported away and then a second started when the yondaime teleported the kyuubi away.

We did see them before he was forced to whip out the Rinnegan and even after that as he used it throughout the fight.

No we didn't and no he hasn't. The EMS power will be displayed through Sasuke, Madara hasn't shown anything with it.

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I see you've decided to outright make up things to pretend I said so you can build a strawman to argue with. How quaint.

What I see is that you have decided to play the victim to avoid answering the fact that all the characters in the story disagree with your stance altogether.
You did say you refused to listen to Oonoki's words because he was too young (which is outright making things up) and you did say that only him really knew of Madara of old which imply that you refuse to listen what the rest of the cast said about their level of power because they don't know what they talk about just as your whole point is about Madara unjustly boasting about Hashirama and his strength whereas he shoudn't.
The only part I "made up" is when I sarcastically said the author had to be mistaken but then that's only taking your argument to its (il)logical conclusion.

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And he has been using Susano'o, Mokuton, the Rinnegan, Edo Tensei regeneration, and an unlimited chakra supply from being a zombie.

He has used nothing but the first 2 since he started fighting against the 5 Kages together, he had no need of the rest and you also made up the unlimited chakra supply part, nowhere was it said that zombie have unlimited chakra and in fact the weakness of the 2nd Edo-Mizukage was precisely the lack of chakra while using his ultimate jutsu.

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Apparently not Sasuke's or Itachi's.

Yeah and Madara hasn't used a partial Susanoo to punch a wall, it means he cannot do it. Seriously are you even trying? Partial use of Susanoo is something they have all used, chakra sword is something they have all used in one form or another in all form as well just as they have all used projectiles in one form or another. You keep claiming Madara did so much more with his Susanoo that Itachi and Sasuke ever did and yet you haven't provided a single real example.

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The genjutsu bottle was part of the sword Itachi's Susano'o only manifests in its armored state. Same applies to the Amaterasu sword for Sasuke.

That's my point in the first place. Madara has only used lesser state of Susanoo up until now. He has not resorted to an armored form and thus we do not know if he can do more with it.

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The cracking is always more pronounced at sites of regeneration, and that would be quite the interesting graze to shoot off the shoulder and the armor on the front but not actually hit anything on the front.

Yes and you can take a look at all the other Edo-tensei thorough the war to see that those cracks are considerably more pronounced than that when they are wounded. In fact you can see those crack are still there around Hashirama's face the following chapter whereas there is still nothing to regenerate.
But hey, considering there is no cloth left behind Madara's left arm I think he might have lost it too which is indeed a more important wound if its the case.

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Again putting words in my mouth. I said he's been making good use of it, not that in that specific instance he would have had to use it to survive (though the Jinton beam would have more more permanent damage without that feature). That said, he did have to use the Rinnegan to survive that Rasenshuriken, because he was unable to make hand seals or use Susano'o for defense, all while being dragged through the air by Gaara's sand.

We're arguing since the beginning about the power he's supposedly forced to use to survive the fight. If you don't argue that he needed them then your entire argument is pointless and goes nowhere.
And once again, you have no basis to claim Pretta path power was the only possible way to deflect the attack. Nearly all his defensive abilities can be used without the use of handseals.

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Either way, since you've lowered yourself to the level of making up things to argue with (when did I say anything about Dan, Kabuto, or the author, let alone criticisms as specific as the ones you pretended I made?), I'm done with having this discussion with you. It's impossible to have a conversation with someone willing to pretend I say things I don't.

I have already adressed this above and to be honest I probably shouldn't have wasted my time answering the whole body of your post considering this.
If you don't want to discuss, then be my guest it's not like anybody is forcing you.

i liked how kish tried to scare us into thinking tsunade actually had a chance in hell of beating madara. and a new forbidden unseen jutsu from her is not gonna cut it. and trust me we know forbidden jutsu have a heavy price, (Her life). and after all the will of talk, i guess it doesnt work on kabuto created edo-tensei huh. the fact is kishi is setting up the forgiveness of sasuke. the uchiha bros will somehow save everyone by taking down kabuto and thus madara, the word will get out and operation save sasuke will be completed. tsunade defeating madara YEAH RIGHT.

If you dislike Tsunade so much then maybe you should skip the next one or two chapters, because she will most likely continue to fight Madara and show him how the will of fire can make her stronger than she was supposed to be just by looking at her genetic abilities. One of the main themes of this manga is that just because you are not genetically as good as someone else you can still become better than him if you have a strong will and determination and so you work hard. She didn't inherit the physical power of her grandfather so she invented a special technique based on very precise chakra control and she became very strong, she didn't inherit her grandfather's ability to regenerate so she invented a self regeneration jutsu based on chakra stored in the seal on her forehead and who knows what other medical jutsu.

In the end she will be saved by Itachi or someone else, but in these 1 or 2 chapters she is the hero who is placed in the spotlight. These are her 15 minutes of glory in this war.

When did that happen? the Kyuubi fired one blast that the yondaime teleported away and then a second started when the yondaime teleported the kyuubi away.

It's not direct evidence but just inference (hence I said subtle). So don't take it as gospel =)

Basically, when Kyuubi started to charge up the bijuu dama while Yondaime was away, the 3rd was going "Not again..." before slumping. I took this to imply that he was already wasted from stopping an earlier one.

As for Madara, at the very least, we know he was forced to use Rinnegan since he himself went "this is a bit too much".

If you dislike Tsunade so much then maybe you should skip the next one or two chapters, because she will most likely continue to fight Madara and show him how the will of fire can make her stronger than she was supposed to be just by looking at her genetic abilities. One of the main themes of this manga is that just because you are not genetically as good as someone else you can still become better than him if you have a strong will and determination and so you work hard. She didn't inherit the physical power of her grandfather so she invented a special technique based on very precise chakra control and she became very strong, she didn't inherit her grandfather's ability to regenerate so she invented a self regeneration jutsu based on chakra stored in the seal on her forehead and who knows what other medical jutsu.

In the end she will be saved by Itachi or someone else, but in these 1 or 2 chapters she is the hero who is placed in the spotlight. These are her 15 minutes of glory in this war.

Even though I agree with you, can one name good guy please die in this war?