DoD orders over 2000 PS3s

According to an official Justification Review Document, the U.S. Department of Defense has ordered 2200 PlayStation 3 consoles in an effort to expand their supercomputer.

The current supercomputer has 336 PS3s arrayed in a cluster, all running a Linux operating system. The consoles have Cell microprocessors, and offer the best value for devices that can be used in the supercomputer.

The systems purchased are 160GB "fat" PS3s because they can run alternate operating systems, unlike the slim PS3s which cannot.

BoingBoing adds: "In the document, it is pointed out that a 1U server with two 3.2GHz cell processors can cost $8,000, while two Sony PS3s cost about $600. This is justified even though the PS3-spec chips deliver 150GFLOPS of performance compared to 200GFLOPS of a standard 3.2GHz IBM Cell microprocessor."

This is where I am in awe that Sony is so stupid to not include the option in their slim line to incorporate Linux, as gov't would start purchasing them into their line. Ah well their loss, and they deserve it.

Originally posted by Mysttic: This is where I am in awe that Sony is so stupid to not include the option in their slim line to incorporate Linux, as gov't would start purchasing them into their line. Ah well their loss, and they deserve it.

I am not sure how that's a loss. It would be if they would've bought something else instead of a PS3.

Absolutely ridiculous.
The country is practically bankrupt, but there is apparently money to spend on expanding the DoD's supercomputer. Yet another fine example corruption in America.
The DoD buys hammers for $1400 a piece, what do you think they paid for these PS3's? Some corrupt little politician is going to have a very merry Christmas.

This message has been edited since its posting. Latest edit was made on 01 Dec 2009 @ 15:55

Originally posted by llongtheD: Absolutely ridiculous.
The country is practically bankrupt, but there is apparently money to spend on expanding the DoD's supercomputer. Yet another fine example corruption in America.

You must be joking, right? Do you realize what an insignificant amount that is(~$300x2200), compared how much gasoline it is burned in a day by the military in Irak for example, or how much a freaking missile costs, that all it does is destroy valuables...
Do you know how much a Super Bowl commercial costs?

Originally posted by llongtheD: Absolutely ridiculous.
The country is practically bankrupt, but there is apparently money to spend on expanding the DoD's supercomputer. Yet another fine example corruption in America.

You must be joking, right? Do you realize what an insignificant amount that is(~$300x2200), compared how much gasoline it is burned in a day by the military in Irak for example, or how much a freaking missile costs, that all it does is destroy valuables...
Do you know how much a Super Bowl commercial costs?

You are right about the corruption though...

Cyprus, you do not not even need to go that far haha, it costs more just to train one squadron for a month.

This message has been edited since its posting. Latest edit was made on 01 Dec 2009 @ 16:23

@DVDBack23
Yeah, no kidding!!!
To say that ~$600.000 adds to budget deficit, is just ridiculous...is nothing but pocket change.Maybe if the sum were closer to 60 millions, would be somewhat significant...Look at how much they spent on the DTV conversion...hundreds of millions for the coupons.

Originally posted by cyprusrom: @DVDBack23
Yeah, no kidding!!!
To say that ~$600.000 adds to budget deficit, is just ridiculous...is nothing but pocket change.Maybe if the sum were closer to 60 millions, would be somewhat significant...Look at how much they spent on the DTV conversion...hundreds of millions for the coupons.

Ya but it adds up do this X 1000 times a day and that's why the gov is bleeding money.... big budget stuff is easy to track but add up all the small shit under a million or even 100K.....

This message has been edited since its posting. Latest edit was made on 01 Dec 2009 @ 16:56

There is a difference between small useless shite and small somehow useful shite...Of course, they could've bought the $8000 a piece servers...
I don't think this "supercomputer upgrade" is where one needs to look for the reason for the hole in the budget...

Originally posted by cyprusrom: There is a difference between small useless shite and small somehow useful shite...Of course, they could've bought the $8000 a piece servers...
I don't think this "supercomputer upgrade" is where one needs to look for the reason for the hole in the budget...

no its just a grain of sand on the beach that has more sand than water(money).

so all of you whiners would rather them go the alternate route and spend 8000x2000? get real! this is one of the smarter moves the govt has made when deciding how to spend money. you should be happy they took the extremely cheap route.

If anyone believes that they only paid 300 a piece for these, then I want some of what your smoking. Any DoD purchase involves miles of red tape. Maybe you think they just backed a flat bed truck up to a distributors factory and got a bulk deal. Thats just not the way it works. I wasn't trying to say this is whats breaking America, but thousands upon thousands of stupid decisions just like this one.
To any idiot who says its just grains of sand, thats what makes up the beach in the long run. A million here, a million there, who cares right?
@grkblood
You took the choice they wanted you to take, the lesser of the two worst case scenarios. What I was saying is this purchase probably didn't need to be made at all. I guess your happy with the way the government spends your hard earned dollars. I'm also sure there is probably no where else this money could have been better appropriated.? Its never about making government more efficient, just expanding government and raising taxes.

This message has been edited since its posting. Latest edit was made on 01 Dec 2009 @ 19:03

If anyone believes that they only paid 300 a piece for these, then I want some of what your smoking. Any DoD purchase involves miles of red tape. Maybe you think they just backed a flat bed truck up to a distributors factory and got a bulk deal. Thats just not the way it works. I wasn't trying to say this is whats breaking America, but thousands upon thousands of stupid decisions just like this one.
To any idiot who says its just grains of sand, thats what makes up the beach in the long run. A million here, a million there, who cares right?
@grkblood
You took the choice they wanted you to take, the lesser of the two worst case scenarios. What I was saying is this purchase probably didn't need to be made at all. I guess your happy with the way the government spends your hard earned dollars. I'm also sure there is probably no where else this money could have been better appropriated.? Its never about making government more efficient, just expanding government and raising taxes.

1ST BLAH BLAH ANTIAMERICAN THIS ANTI GOVERNMENT THAT IT'S SO FREAKIN OLD TO HERE THE SAME GARBAGE EVERYDAY.Don't like it? Do something about it get into politics and change it...The only good thing about all the whining is that it is so friggin excessive today...so that means when the tide turns it will be just as extreme in the other direction.
You guys obviously have no idea what you are talking about when it comes to what is spent and how much it costs. "1200 hundred dollar hammers" (or what you really meant was the hundred dollar toilet seats" is what is BUDGETED not what is spent. Is there a reason for it, yes, it is done so they can funnel money into black projects that they won't disclose to the public or anyone else for that matter.

And as for what they spend on them per unit-you don't put together a bulk order like this one for 2200 units and pay more for them. That just isn't how things work. You buy in bulk you get lower price per unit.It really doesn't matter what the US does everyone whines..you can't please everyone all the time. How we got to this point in the world I don't understand but as a nation we are still the best, the ones with the most protection for our citizens,the freest. That is why people sneak out of other countries and into ours not the other way around. Remind me again who's country is passing laws to ban people from the internet? Who's country's are or have already stripped most of the people from the right to own firearms? It isn't what the law is specifically the point is they are laws to strip citizens of freedoms. Are we perfect no,is a portion of the govt corrupt..yeah but that is a human condition and it happens in every country.

And the iraq for oil type comments. So what if we did what would you rather have those countries hijack all the oil..that will effect more than just America..it would bring most of the wealthiest countries to their knees..not just ours. Do you guys even realize how fast the economies of your countries would collapse should it happen. Again quit spittin on your friends people.

This message has been edited since its posting. Latest edit was made on 01 Dec 2009 @ 19:50

Right yeah I will go now and hang my head low for you have absolutely schooled me ..ouch my self esteem is shot now. I have spent my life serving others ..first in the Army and now as a Paramedic and regardless of how many ungrateful people there are I wouldn't change it for anything. I happen to know something about what is happening in the world.

This message has been edited since its posting. Latest edit was made on 01 Dec 2009 @ 20:06

the real question is why the DOD needs a super cluster for what reason are they expanding on a very well made system.

to spy on us, to tap are landlines, to monitor the public places of America year around.

What ever it is this much is clear they want to stay under the radar why else would the most unresourcefull government buy that many PS3's.
if the DOD needed more super computers the DOD would get a billion dollars worth of super computers.

the DOD doesn't say mr. president can we please get more super computer.the DOD says give us the Mutherf**king Super Computers you flying Co** ****er or will rip them out of your Bl&** As*

I never thought there would be so many dumb people on this site. Sounds like money well spent, server/cluster upgrade needed and it was done on the cheap. Your taxes didn't go up (they have actually gone down since Obama took office) -- The $1200 hammer? or toilet seat or however the lie goes -- go back to your Fox News forums and *bleep* repeating the same bullshit back and forth to each other -- maybe you guys will enjoy it more... you know make your own fantasy..errrr...reality with your own "facts".

Or shut the *bleep* up. either is cool with me.

This message has been edited since its posting. Latest edit was made on 02 Dec 2009 @ 8:38

Originally posted by empulse: I never thought there would be so many dumb people on this site. Sounds like money well spent, server/cluster upgrade needed and it was done on the cheap. Your taxes didn't go up (they have actually gone down since Obama took office) -- The $1200 hammer? or toilet seat or however the lie goes -- go back to your Fox News forums and *bleep* repeating the same bullshit back and forth to each other -- maybe you guys will enjoy it more... you know make your own fantasy..errrr...reality with your own "facts".

Or shut the *bleep* up. either is cool with me.

Your the governments wetdream. You actually believe we shouldn't question the corruption. Stand in line good soldier, it will all be over soon.
Maybe when or if your able to fully develop mentally, you'll learn that checks and balances, and questioning our leaders is kind of what America was built on. I guess I'm just being anti-american huh?

This message has been edited since its posting. Latest edit was made on 02 Dec 2009 @ 8:39

Back on topic...
The article says that the PS3's are running a version of Linux. I seem to recall reading somewhere that the PS3's full power is not available in Linux, that not all the cores are available for use. If they are using these PS3's as part of a supercomputer, I bet they want all the power they can get. So how are they utilizing the PS3's full power? Can this lead to some sort of hack? I may be wrong, but it's just a thought i was having.

Quote:Its never about making government more efficient, just expanding government and raising taxes.

I couldn't agree more, especially with these liberals in office. Bush wasn't much better though. What we Americans need is a Ronald Reagan; a true republican that respects the constitution and our freedoms. What I can't wrap my head around with the current administration is how they blatantly tax the rich left and right. Since when is there a limit on how successful your career can be!? This is still America for god's sake. Well people the reason why this is happening is simple, GREED. That is why Obama got elected. And then there is welfare. Why try in school and get into a nice college if when you get a nice paying job, Uncle Sam comes along and takes %45 of that. You might as well just sit on your couch and collect social security and welfare. This is why the unemployment rate isn't going down anytime soon.

what is the big deal about wanting Linux on the ps3 i had it on mine and i couldn't run much due to it being a PPC processor and not Intel as most apps are programed for Intel and in the end my ps3 had a defect and i traded it in for the slim and all i can say is i use Linux on the slim as much as i would on the fat as i never used it in the first place except to experiment with it
i will stick with my tri-booted laptop (mac, linux, windows) rather than Linux on a ps3

Quote: Since when is there a limit on how successful your career can be!? This is still America for god's sake. Well people the reason why this is happening is simple, GREED. That is why Obama got elected. And then there is welfare. Why try in school and get into a nice college if when you get a nice paying job, Uncle Sam comes along and takes %45 of that. You might as well just sit on your couch and collect social security and welfare. This is why the unemployment rate isn't going down anytime soon.

Yes, it should be a limit...at least limited by common sense...if you have CEOs that cash in seven figures a year, even at 45% tax I think they should have left more than enough to live a lavish life...

Check out these guys, I don't think after paying taxes they are left starving...

wow...did you guys even read the article or understand it?
most of you guys are off-topic

Quote:"In the document, it is pointed out that a 1U server with two 3.2GHz cell processors can cost $8,000, while two Sony PS3s cost about $600. This is justified even though the PS3-spec chips deliver 150GFLOPS of performance compared to 200GFLOPS of a standard 3.2GHz IBM Cell microprocessor."

OK let me break it down for you-one 1U server with two cell processors cost $8,000
-two PS3 with one cell processors for each PS3 cost $600
-1U server cell processor can deliver over 200 GFLOPS
-PS3 configuration delivers approximately 150 GFLOPS
its all come down to cost$8,000(one 1U server) - $600(two PS3) = $7,400
so, for ever two PS3 they buy DoD save $7,400 compare to buying one 1U server for $8,000
clearly DoD just wanted the PS3 cell processor/chips not the hole PS3 or not to use it to run Linux

Quote:wow...did you guys even read the article or understand it?
most of you guys are off-topic

Quote:"In the document, it is pointed out that a 1U server with two 3.2GHz cell processors can cost $8,000, while two Sony PS3s cost about $600. This is justified even though the PS3-spec chips deliver 150GFLOPS of performance compared to 200GFLOPS of a standard 3.2GHz IBM Cell microprocessor."

OK let me break it down for you-one 1U server with two cell processors cost $8,000
-two PS3 with one cell processors for each PS3 cost $600
-1U server cell processor can deliver over 200 GFLOPS
-PS3 configuration delivers approximately 150 GFLOPS
its all come down to cost$8,000(one 1U server) - $600(two PS3) = $7,400
so, for ever two PS3 they buy DoD save $7,400 compare to buying one 1U server for $8,000
clearly DoD just wanted the PS3 cell processor/chips not the hole PS3 or not to use it to run Linux

Originally posted by escalante: Back on topic...
The article says that the PS3's are running a version of Linux. I seem to recall reading somewhere that the PS3's full power is not available in Linux, that not all the cores are available for use. If they are using these PS3's as part of a supercomputer, I bet they want all the power they can get. So how are they utilizing the PS3's full power? Can this lead to some sort of hack? I may be wrong, but it's just a thought i was having.

Peace
Escalante

It is true that linux on the PS3 is downright worthless for many things, but it does allow you to use the PS3 cell engine as a very powerfull data processing engine if you write the code correctly.

Originally posted by MrPuffin: what is the big deal about wanting Linux on the ps3 i had it on mine and i couldn't run much due to it being a PPC processor and not Intel as most apps are programed for Intel and in the end my ps3 had a defect and i traded it in for the slim and all i can say is i use Linux on the slim as much as i would on the fat as i never used it in the first place except to experiment with it
i will stick with my tri-booted laptop (mac, linux, windows) rather than Linux on a ps3

PS3 linux is still at a very early state...they have not even developed a 3D video driver yet. It will evolve, and other "Other OS" options will probably also emerge...there is already one "Other OS" that turns your PS3 into a HD video encoder, and there may be more on the way soon...

Originally posted by escalante: Back on topic...
The article says that the PS3's are running a version of Linux. I seem to recall reading somewhere that the PS3's full power is not available in Linux, that not all the cores are available for use. If they are using these PS3's as part of a supercomputer, I bet they want all the power they can get. So how are they utilizing the PS3's full power? Can this lead to some sort of hack? I may be wrong, but it's just a thought i was having.

You just don't have access to the RSX GPU, which is totally unneeded for Linux clustering.

This message has been edited since its posting. Latest edit was made on 01 Dec 2009 @ 23:50

Originally posted by escalante: Back on topic...
The article says that the PS3's are running a version of Linux. I seem to recall reading somewhere that the PS3's full power is not available in Linux, that not all the cores are available for use. If they are using these PS3's as part of a supercomputer, I bet they want all the power they can get. So how are they utilizing the PS3's full power? Can this lead to some sort of hack? I may be wrong, but it's just a thought i was having.

You just don't have access to the RSX GPU, which is totally unneeded for Linux clustering.

You do have access to the RSX...you just can't use it because no one has writen a linux compatable driver for it. Even if such a driver existed, it would not help much...the PS3 has so little memory that it has to dissable custom XMB icons when games are running.

Quote:Its never about making government more efficient, just expanding government and raising taxes.

I couldn't agree more, especially with these liberals in office. Bush wasn't much better though. What we Americans need is a Ronald Reagan; a true republican that respects the constitution and our freedoms. What I can't wrap my head around with the current administration is how they blatantly tax the rich left and right. Since when is there a limit on how successful your career can be!? This is still America for god's sake. Well people the reason why this is happening is simple, GREED. That is why Obama got elected. And then there is welfare. Why try in school and get into a nice college if when you get a nice paying job, Uncle Sam comes along and takes %45 of that. You might as well just sit on your couch and collect social security and welfare. This is why the unemployment rate isn't going down anytime soon.

Good thing they didn't use the Xbox 360. It's bad enough that it has no games and would force them to pay to go online but can you imagine if it got the RROD right in the middle of a war? "Turn on the defence system!"........."I can't. All i see are 3 red lights.".

The 1st was then they ordered 2200 Wii's a couple years ago to do the same thing. They are proud to say that the combined power of the Wii's has actually almost counted to 100 as of November 30 of this year. A proud moment.

The 2nd purchase was last month when they bought and paid for 2200 360's only to realize they were all banned. That will teach them for buying from Craigslist off some guy named Eddie. Man is their face red!

This message has been edited since its posting. Latest edit was made on 02 Dec 2009 @ 8:06

Originally posted by xnonsuchx:You just don't have access to the RSX GPU, which is totally unneeded for Linux clustering.

You do have access to the RSX...you just can't use it because no one has writen a linux compatable driver for it. Even if such a driver existed, it would not help much...the PS3 has so little memory that it has to dissable custom XMB icons when games are running.

Gee! You better tell the PS3 Linux community of your vast knowledge since they agree with Sony's OWN info that the RSX is off limits in the 'Other OS' option (except in some very early firmwares, apparently). I KNEW there was a reason I usually avoid reading your and Zippy's utterly un-knowledgeable, knee-jerk posts. That's why they have some Cell-based graphics acceleration now.

It still doesn't matter at all for Linux clustering.

This message has been edited since its posting. Latest edit was made on 02 Dec 2009 @ 9:07

Seriously. You can't believe the government is SAVING money by buying toys to build a Supercomputer?
Do you think they cancelled 2200 IBM HP or DELL 1U servers to buy PS3's? Just the cooling racks required for these PS3's will cost more than $2500. Non-standard Linux implementations need manhours of support. How exactly are they saving money?

Bam431 has it right.
They are too embarrassed to say that they will use these to run MW2 type war simulations. Now there is the savings. Professionel Simulators are extremely expensive.

Originally posted by joepet200: Seriously. You can't believe the government is SAVING money by buying toys to build a Supercomputer?
Do you think they cancelled 2200 IBM HP or DELL 1U servers to buy PS3's? Just the cooling racks required for these PS3's will cost more than $2500. Non-standard Linux implementations need manhours of support. How exactly are they saving money?

I wasn't aware Fedora/RedHat, Ubuntu and others were "non-standard Linux"...what are you smoking? ;-) And yes, it DOES end up being a lot less expensive.

Originally posted by xnonsuchx:Gee! You better tell the PS3Linux community of your vast knowledge since they agree with Sony's OWN info that the RSX is off limits in the 'Other OS' option (except in some very early firmwares, apparently). I KNEW there was a reason I usually avoid reading your and Zippy's utterly un-knowledgeable, knee-jerk posts. That's why they have some Cell-based graphics acceleration now.

You got it...you don't need the latest firmware when you are building a cluster...no need for the PSN, so no need for firmware updates. I assure you that the dOd can write a hacked firmware...or even a "game" that would act as linux (with RSX support) even on the slimline.

Originally posted by xnonsuchx:You just don't have access to the RSX GPU, which is totally unneeded for Linux clustering.

You do have access to the RSX...you just can't use it because no one has writen a linux compatable driver for it. Even if such a driver existed, it would not help much...the PS3 has so little memory that it has to dissable custom XMB icons when games are running.

Gee! You better tell the PS3 Linux community of your vast knowledge since they agree with Sony's OWN info that the RSX is off limits in the 'Other OS' option (except in some very early firmwares, apparently). I KNEW there was a reason I usually avoid reading your and Zippy's utterly un-knowledgeable, knee-jerk posts. That's why they have some Cell-based graphics acceleration now.

Quote:"(Disclaimer, side effects from reading this article include, impotence, lack of energy, eyestrain, guy busting, incontinence, incoherence, lowering of the IQ, erectile dysfunction, headaches, confusion, joy, suffering, frustration, madness, envy, and the rare rare side effect to give all your basses/money to zippy , thank you for taking the time to try and read this :P)"
.:ZippyDSMlee

Copyright infringement is nothing more than civil disobedience to a bad set of laws. Lets renegotiate them.

Originally posted by HUNCHBAK: How we got to this point in the world I don't understand but as a nation we are still the best, the ones with the most protection for our citizens,the freest. That is why people sneak out of other countries and into ours not the other way around. Remind me again who's country is passing laws to ban people from the internet? Who's country's are or have already stripped most of the people from the right to own firearms? It isn't what the law is specifically the point is they are laws to strip citizens of freedoms. Are we perfect no,is a portion of the govt corrupt..yeah but that is a human condition and it happens in every country.

If you think that having a gun is freedom than you have some seriously *bleep* moral values. Anti-firearms laws were put in place in countries like Australia to stop horrific acts of terrorism, like the Port Arthur Massacre. Things like that are still happening in America. By your definition of freedom, imprisoning murderers and rapists is wrong.

If there was no "laws to strip citizens of freedoms" then there would be Anarchy.

Originally posted by ZippyDSM: "(Disclaimer, side effects from reading this article include, impotence, lack of energy, eyestrain, guy busting, incontinence, incoherence, lowering of the IQ, erectile dysfunction, headaches, confusion, joy, suffering, frustration, madness, envy, and the rare rare side effect to give all your basses/money to zippy , thank you for taking the time to try and read this :P)"
.:ZippyDSMlee

Originally posted by joepet200: Seriously. You can't believe the government is SAVING money by buying toys to build a Supercomputer?
Do you think they cancelled 2200 IBM HP or DELL 1U servers to buy PS3's? Just the cooling racks required for these PS3's will cost more than $2500. Non-standard Linux implementations need manhours of support. How exactly are they saving money?

I wasn't aware Fedora/RedHat, Ubuntu and others were "non-standard Linux"...what are you smoking? ;-) And yes, it DOES end up being a lot less expensive.

Originally posted by joepet200: Seriously. You can't believe the government is SAVING money by buying toys to build a Supercomputer?
Do you think they cancelled 2200 IBM HP or DELL 1U servers to buy PS3's? Just the cooling racks required for these PS3's will cost more than $2500. Non-standard Linux implementations need manhours of support. How exactly are they saving money?

I wasn't aware Fedora/RedHat, Ubuntu and others were "non-standard Linux"...what are you smoking? ;-) And yes, it DOES end up being a lot less expensive.

I may be smoken weed up here in Canada (the free-est country in the world- just ask my beaver). But I doubt the DoD is using Ubuntu on PS3's to save a few bucks while your boys are depending on that data to find Bin Laden. Toke?

Originally posted by HUNCHBAK: How we got to this point in the world I don't understand but as a nation we are still the best, the ones with the most protection for our citizens,the freest. That is why people sneak out of other countries and into ours not the other way around. Remind me again who's country is passing laws to ban people from the internet? Who's country's are or have already stripped most of the people from the right to own firearms? It isn't what the law is specifically the point is they are laws to strip citizens of freedoms. Are we perfect no,is a portion of the govt corrupt..yeah but that is a human condition and it happens in every country.

If you think that having a gun is freedom than you have some seriously *bleep* moral values. Anti-firearms laws were put in place in countries like Australia to stop horrific acts of terrorism, like the Port Arthur Massacre. Things like that are still happening in America. By your definition of freedom, imprisoning murderers and rapists is wrong.

If there was no "laws to strip citizens of freedoms" then there would be Anarchy.

Originally posted by ZippyDSM: "(Disclaimer, side effects from reading this article include, impotence, lack of energy, eyestrain, guy busting, incontinence, incoherence, lowering of the IQ, erectile dysfunction, headaches, confusion, joy, suffering, frustration, madness, envy, and the rare rare side effect to give all your basses/money to zippy , thank you for taking the time to try and read this :P)"
.:ZippyDSMlee

Quote:Its never about making government more efficient, just expanding government and raising taxes.

I couldn't agree more, especially with these liberals in office. Bush wasn't much better though. What we Americans need is a Ronald Reagan; a true republican that respects the constitution and our freedoms. What I can't wrap my head around with the current administration is how they blatantly tax the rich left and right. Since when is there a limit on how successful your career can be!? This is still America for god's sake. Well people the reason why this is happening is simple, GREED. That is why Obama got elected. And then there is welfare. Why try in school and get into a nice college if when you get a nice paying job, Uncle Sam comes along and takes %45 of that. You might as well just sit on your couch and collect social security and welfare. This is why the unemployment rate isn't going down anytime soon.

please do the research. The reason the country is i. The situation economically today with thousands losing homes, jobs, the stock market dropping few years back, etc.. is because of an idiot named bush. Don't understand why the rich are being taxed? Wake up, bc they have been raping the rest of the country for years. I'm not saying a business owner should always receive higher taxes but when I get a bill in the mail from a hospital totaling $1000, I contact the hospital to let them know my insurance company needs to pay their share first, then I get a bill after my insurance pays but the hospital gives them a big 60 percent discount And they end up only having topay $400. Now people you don't have to be a genius to figure out that most of the Americans are middle class status so why are these insurance companies giving these rich multibillion dollars companies discounts instead of you and me? The answer to your question as to why a lot of these huge companies deserve to be taxed higher is bc they waste money. Just like AIG who borrowed all that money from the government, our tax dollars mind you, and then gave a number of employees bonuses.
Some of these bonuses were $400,000 to more than $1,000,000 per person. Now that is a hell of a bonus to be giving out when a company just filed bankrupt and got a loan from the government.

Second George bush is to blame bc 9-11-01 started a lot of this crap. Not saying we didnot already have problems but a lot of amercas current problems are runoffs of poor idiotic decisions bush made while in office. You really need to do the research and find the truth that bush was warned a month ahead that alqida was possibly planning an attack on us soil that involved hijacking of planes and he did nothing. Didn't put the country on alert, order an investigation or anything. Do the research to find out why Collin Powell resigned from his positio on bushes cabinent bc he didnot want his name associated with any mistakes bush made in his past. Powell wasnot alone as others resigned from bushes cabinent as well following the governments investigation to find out if bush had actually been warned of the impending 9-11 or not. Well the government found out that bush and condelleza rice both lied saying that had no idea when they had indeed been warned. The twin towers destruction, thousands who lost their lives and loved ones and the after shock that led to a war and this countries current status is on the head of George bush.

Ps .. For any disbelievers... Seriosly all jokes aside... If you want to discredit anything I posted here do the research and you will be shocked to find I am not posting my opinion. Our government did the research and investigation on 9-11 and it is not hard to find out the results after they interrogated bush and rice.

Quote:Its never about making government more efficient, just expanding government and raising taxes.

I couldn't agree more, especially with these liberals in office. Bush wasn't much better though. What we Americans need is a Ronald Reagan; a true republican that respects the constitution and our freedoms. What I can't wrap my head around with the current administration is how they blatantly tax the rich left and right. Since when is there a limit on how successful your career can be!? This is still America for god's sake. Well people the reason why this is happening is simple, GREED. That is why Obama got elected. And then there is welfare. Why try in school and get into a nice college if when you get a nice paying job, Uncle Sam comes along and takes %45 of that. You might as well just sit on your couch and collect social security and welfare. This is why the unemployment rate isn't going down anytime soon.

please do the research. The reason the country is i. The situation economically today with thousands losing homes, jobs, the stock market dropping few years back, etc.. is because of an idiot named bush. Don't understand why the rich are being taxed? Wake up, bc they have been raping the rest of the country for years. I'm not saying a business owner should always receive higher taxes but when I get a bill in the mail from a hospital totaling $1000, I contact the hospital to let them know my insurance company needs to pay their share first, then I get a bill after my insurance pays but the hospital gives them a big 60 percent discount And they end up only having topay $400. Now people you don't have to be a genius to figure out that most of the Americans are middle class status so why are these insurance companies giving these rich multibillion dollars companies discounts instead of you and me? The answer to your question as to why a lot of these huge companies deserve to be taxed higher is bc they waste money. Just like AIG who borrowed all that money from the government, our tax dollars mind you, and then gave a number of employees bonuses.
Some of these bonuses were $400,000 to more than $1,000,000 per person. Now that is a hell of a bonus to be giving out when a company just filed bankrupt and got a loan from the government.

Second George bush is to blame bc 9-11-01 started a lot of this crap. Not saying we didnot already have problems but a lot of amercas current problems are runoffs of poor idiotic decisions bush made while in office. You really need to do the research and find the truth that bush was warned a month ahead that alqida was possibly planning an attack on us soil that involved hijacking of planes and he did nothing. Didn't put the country on alert, order an investigation or anything. Do the research to find out why Collin Powell resigned from his positio on bushes cabinent bc he didnot want his name associated with any mistakes bush made in his past. Powell wasnot alone as others resigned from bushes cabinent as well following the governments investigation to find out if bush had actually been warned of the impending 9-11 or not. Well the government found out that bush and condelleza rice both lied saying that had no idea when they had indeed been warned. The twin towers destruction, thousands who lost their lives and loved ones and the after shock that led to a war and this countries current status is on the head of George bush.

Ps .. For any disbelievers... Seriosly all jokes aside... If you want to discredit anything I posted here do the research and you will be shocked to find I am not posting my opinion. Our government did the research and investigation on 9-11 and it is not hard to find out the results after they interrogated bush and rice.

Don't put all the blame on bush this was going to happen sooner or later its happened before. the Market crash has nothing to do with the presidency it has to do with the Americans not providing for them selves. have you seen any real American goods made on American Soil?

Until the Americans Start Trading and stop whoring resources Nothing is going to change, if it were me i would do what Russia did cut off all trade to the world for a good 10 years. reorganize the country and start trade again only this time with the US as a supplier.

Russia Is a Truly resourceful Country, there military is a fine example.

As far as the US is Concerned we can no longer be called an industrial Country.

Quote:Its never about making government more efficient, just expanding government and raising taxes.

I couldn't agree more, especially with these liberals in office. Bush wasn't much better though. What we Americans need is a Ronald Reagan; a true republican that respects the constitution and our freedoms. What I can't wrap my head around with the current administration is how they blatantly tax the rich left and right. Since when is there a limit on how successful your career can be!? This is still America for god's sake. Well people the reason why this is happening is simple, GREED. That is why Obama got elected. And then there is welfare. Why try in school and get into a nice college if when you get a nice paying job, Uncle Sam comes along and takes %45 of that. You might as well just sit on your couch and collect social security and welfare. This is why the unemployment rate isn't going down anytime soon.

please do the research. The reason the country is i. The situation economically today with thousands losing homes, jobs, the stock market dropping few years back, etc.. is because of an idiot named bush. Don't understand why the rich are being taxed? Wake up, bc they have been raping the rest of the country for years. I'm not saying a business owner should always receive higher taxes but when I get a bill in the mail from a hospital totaling $1000, I contact the hospital to let them know my insurance company needs to pay their share first, then I get a bill after my insurance pays but the hospital gives them a big 60 percent discount And they end up only having topay $400. Now people you don't have to be a genius to figure out that most of the Americans are middle class status so why are these insurance companies giving these rich multibillion dollars companies discounts instead of you and me? The answer to your question as to why a lot of these huge companies deserve to be taxed higher is bc they waste money. Just like AIG who borrowed all that money from the government, our tax dollars mind you, and then gave a number of employees bonuses.
Some of these bonuses were $400,000 to more than $1,000,000 per person. Now that is a hell of a bonus to be giving out when a company just filed bankrupt and got a loan from the government.

Second George bush is to blame bc 9-11-01 started a lot of this crap. Not saying we didnot already have problems but a lot of amercas current problems are runoffs of poor idiotic decisions bush made while in office. You really need to do the research and find the truth that bush was warned a month ahead that alqida was possibly planning an attack on us soil that involved hijacking of planes and he did nothing. Didn't put the country on alert, order an investigation or anything. Do the research to find out why Collin Powell resigned from his positio on bushes cabinent bc he didnot want his name associated with any mistakes bush made in his past. Powell wasnot alone as others resigned from bushes cabinent as well following the governments investigation to find out if bush had actually been warned of the impending 9-11 or not. Well the government found out that bush and condelleza rice both lied saying that had no idea when they had indeed been warned. The twin towers destruction, thousands who lost their lives and loved ones and the after shock that led to a war and this countries current status is on the head of George bush.

Ps .. For any disbelievers... Seriosly all jokes aside... If you want to discredit anything I posted here do the research and you will be shocked to find I am not posting my opinion. Our government did the research and investigation on 9-11 and it is not hard to find out the results after they interrogated bush and rice.

Don't put all the blame on bush this was going to happen sooner or later its happened before. the Market crash has nothing to do with the presidency it has to do with the Americans not providing for them selves. have you seen any real American goods made on American Soil?

Until the Americans Start Trading and stop whoring resources Nothing is going to change, if it were me i would do what Russia did cut off all trade to the world for a good 10 years. reorganize the country and start trade again only this time with the US as a supplier.

Russia Is a Truly resourceful Country, there military is a fine example.

As far as the US is Concerned we can no longer be called an industrial Country.

@ Drx88

I did say that the county already had problems. Look it is right above if you mind rereading. True americans do waste money i already made that point. Remember i posted about companies like AIG. That was not limited to just one company it is meant for companies, big, small and people in general. But as i stated about the Country in itsCURRENT CONDITION wouldnot be were it is at this time if 9-11 had been avoiding. I never said the market may not have crashed again years from now. You need to learn to comprehend what you read as your assumptions about my points didnot set in with you.

second my smart friend how bout you google and post some statistics on exactly how much this war has cost the country. Now the war was suppose to be over another country having nuclear weapons right? Or did bush just use saddam hussein as a vent to get the media attention off the fact that bin laden just made history on american soil and he was at fault. Smarty the 9-11 commission who did the investigation determined that bush and rice falsified information that led our country to even making a decision to start the war in iraq. You can find testimony and video from senators who even support that they were mislead into this war. DUhhh...Think i am giving and OPINION or making it up, do the research and post back. Seriously dont waste yourtime trying to prove me wrong thinking i am making all this crap up just b.c i may not like bush myself, your time would be better spent shelling peas. At least you would have made some positive progress and be able to enjoy something to eat afterward. LMAO

Here....Bin Laden Determined To Strike in U.S.,..."
this is a copy of the memorandum that President Bush was given by tow FBI agents approximately a month before 9-11 happened. Says at the end that they were up to some strange activities and stuff that would make you think they were planning something new for an attack.

@smarty DRX88 WHY DIDNOT BUSH PUT THE COUNTRY ON ALERT OR ORDER AN INVESTIGATION AT THAT TIME? When President Clinton was in office, he came to Grambling State University and spoke at a graduation. Everyone knew the President was coming but months before he came to speak white unmarked vans appeared all over the city. Just parked for no reasons. Had satellite dishes on top with dark windows and men dressed in the same attire. That was just things everyone in town noticed hell Technology for the government is a mutha. The fbi actually arrested a guy at my local walmart b/c they overheard him say something about the president they didnot like. He got in serious trouble. Had the president acted on the memorandum, remember they already knew a some of these guys and were keeping tabs on them, 9-11 may well have never happened.

This message has been edited since its posting. Latest edit was made on 04 Dec 2009 @ 4:38

A country without a government is not an Anarchy; at least not for more than the first few minutes. Once the old leaders are either dead, imprisoned, or otherwise removed from power, new leaders start to build their own governments. Even if this were not the case, corportations take up the tasks once belonging to the government; and a country run by corportations is called a Polyarchy.

The problems with the USA are much older than either of the Bushes (not to say that either did a good job). The demo-publican party has run the country since 1853, and have made a dictatorship out of the presidency. Granted, a term only lasts 4-8 years...and we get a choice of two bad candidates...but they are choosen by the men behind the curtains, and they do what the corportations (run by the men behind the curtain) tell them to do. It is a sad system, and many of the founding fathers would be called anarchists or even traitors for their views on the country as it is now.

Guns are bad...but you are not going to get rid of them, and the countries that take weapons from their citizens keep weapons for themselves. As long as guns are around, other guns will be needed to counter them...this sometimes sparks wars, but just as often prevents pointless invasions. I LOL when someone claims that gun prohibition prevents terrorism...imagine if you could bring guns on a plane; a handfull of terrorists would not have been able to cause 911 with a plane full of gun-toting passengers. If a terrorist wants to kill a bunch of people, they will use a bomb...it is cheaper and more effective than a gun, and you don't need to be in the middle of the firefight...you might even get away with it a few times if you were super-carefull and a bit lucky. On top of that, there is no 3-day-waiting-period to buy diesel fuel and fertilizer.

I agree with the above post. At least by purchasing the PS3's the country has two positives. Hopefully the DOD will be able to better this countries defenses and second it would be a lot cheaper financially and save some money.

Quote:If you think that having a gun is freedom than you have some seriously *bleep* moral values. Anti-firearms laws were put in place in countries like Australia to stop horrific acts of terrorism, like the Port Arthur Massacre. Things like that are still happening in America. By your definition of freedom, imprisoning murderers and rapists is wrong.

If guns were the problem why are there no horrific mass shootings @ Gun shows, in Gun Stores ... or places where lots of people are armed with loaded weapons ...

Panic, sloppy counterintelligence and for the most part its not the first time WTO was a target for terrorists. 1993 remember 6 people died that year too.

there is no doubt in my mind the government knew about the attack, but the government doesn't work on threats or assumptions. unless they have Facts or actual proof they can do nothing. and by the time they had the proof the destruction was already in the air. would your order jets to Shoot down those hijacked Airlines.

don't like bush, don't like any presidents, they are tools to the Highest Bidder. they don't run countries they run corruption and lies to all who will listen. they are Nutless men who would cower at the first site of any real crysis. they are Worthless.

Quote:I don't see how Anarchy would be a bad thing but You're right about the guns.

you have no problem with now rules and laws ...

you would enjoy living your Existence in Bartertown

dieing on the open road victim of some gang ....

I have no problem with no rules or laws. It's the rules and laws that start most of the trouble in the first place. There will still be jerks who kill and steal from other people but we have that now even with rules and laws.

Originally posted by joepet200: Seriously. You can't believe the government is SAVING money by buying toys to build a Supercomputer?
Do you think they cancelled 2200 IBM HP or DELL 1U servers to buy PS3's? Just the cooling racks required for these PS3's will cost more than $2500. Non-standard Linux implementations need manhours of support. How exactly are they saving money?

I wasn't aware Fedora/RedHat, Ubuntu and others were "non-standard Linux"...what are you smoking? ;-) And yes, it DOES end up being a lot less expensive.

I may be smoken weed up here in Canada (the free-est country in the world- just ask my beaver). But I doubt the DoD is using Ubuntu on PS3's to save a few bucks while your boys are depending on that data to find Bin Laden. Toke?

No thanks! I don't smoke (anything). That still doesn't answer what "non-standard Linux" means. However, I have often wished I were Canadian too instead of a US citizen (esp. from 2001-2008).

Originally posted by joepet200: Seriously. You can't believe the government is SAVING money by buying toys to build a Supercomputer?
Do you think they cancelled 2200 IBM HP or DELL 1U servers to buy PS3's? Just the cooling racks required for these PS3's will cost more than $2500. Non-standard Linux implementations need manhours of support. How exactly are they saving money?

I wasn't aware Fedora/RedHat, Ubuntu and others were "non-standard Linux"...what are you smoking? ;-) And yes, it DOES end up being a lot less expensive.

I may be smoken weed up here in Canada (the free-est country in the world- just ask my beaver). But I doubt the DoD is using Ubuntu on PS3's to save a few bucks while your boys are depending on that data to find Bin Laden. Toke?

No thanks! I don't smoke (anything). That still doesn't answer what "non-standard Linux" means. However, I have often wished I were Canadian too instead of a US citizen (esp. from 2001-2008).

Originally posted by joepet200: Seriously. You can't believe the government is SAVING money by buying toys to build a Supercomputer?
Do you think they cancelled 2200 IBM HP or DELL 1U servers to buy PS3's? Just the cooling racks required for these PS3's will cost more than $2500. Non-standard Linux implementations need manhours of support. How exactly are they saving money?

I wasn't aware Fedora/RedHat, Ubuntu and others were "non-standard Linux"...what are you smoking? ;-) And yes, it DOES end up being a lot less expensive.

I may be smoken weed up here in Canada (the free-est country in the world- just ask my beaver). But I doubt the DoD is using Ubuntu on PS3's to save a few bucks while your boys are depending on that data to find Bin Laden. Toke?

No thanks! I don't smoke (anything). That still doesn't answer what "non-standard Linux" means. However, I have often wished I were Canadian too instead of a US citizen (esp. from 2001-2008).

I wanna see if this goes anywhere.

Oh Canada, Our home and native land...

True patriot love in all thy sons command.

Oh I'm a lumberjack and I'm O.KAYYYYY
I work all night and I sing all dayyyyy.

Quote:If you think that having a gun is freedom than you have some seriously *bleep* moral values. Anti-firearms laws were put in place in countries like Australia to stop horrific acts of terrorism, like the Port Arthur Massacre. Things like that are still happening in America. By your definition of freedom, imprisoning murderers and rapists is wrong.

If guns were the problem why are there no horrific mass shootings @ Gun shows, in Gun Stores ... or places where lots of people are armed with loaded weapons ...

But if there was anti-firearm laws then those killings in "Gun Free Zones" might not have happened. It's just too easy to get your hands on a gun. Yes, they probably would find an alternative to a gun, but I doubt they would do as much damage. Take Australia for example, the enthusiasts can still get guns, but they need extensive licenses and background checks.

Originally posted by KillerBug: I LOL when someone claims that gun prohibition prevents terrorism...imagine if you could bring guns on a plane; a handfull of terrorists would not have been able to cause 911 with a plane full of gun-toting passengers.

That may be so, but how many other innocent civillians would be killed and how many more planes hijacked if everybody was walking around with an itchy trigger finger and a loaded gun?

Originally posted by ZippyDSM: Meh gay can be fun

LOL, coming out of the closet, eh?

This message has been edited since its posting. Latest edit was made on 05 Dec 2009 @ 0:16

Originally posted by chris4160:That may be so, but how many other innocent civillians would be killed and how many more planes hijacked if everybody was walking around with an itchy trigger finger and a loaded gun?

Probably very few if any. If a criminal wants a gun, he will get it, even if there is a weapons embargo on the entire country for everyone including the military. This has become the case in many war-torn nations, and rule is by the few with the brutality and luck to get a gun.

In most of the countries where there are a lot of terrorist attacks, guns are commonplace...the AK47 is far more common than the iPod. No one shows up to a crowded place full of people with AK47's to attempt a shooting spree; no matter how many virgins they have been promised...they can get more kills with a bomb, and getting blown up is a lot less painfull that bleeding to death from gunshot wounds.

One last thing...guns are relativly new to human history, but terrorism and violence go back further than recorded history. Some of the events commited with dull, heavy swords are far more horrific than anything in Irag, Afghanistan, or any of the dictatorships in Africa. We live in technologicaly advanced era where home video games are so powerfull that they can be used as weapons...but humans are still the same as they have been for at least the last 15,000 years. Guns get a bad name because they are seen as killing people, but they are just tools. You can kill a person with a piece of rope, a hammer, a carpet knife, a book, or just about anything. If you want an idea of how far this goes in a gun-free society, just look at the shank collection of any prison...they make knives from tooth brushes!

If we had no guns, we would be disputing making crossbows illigal, if not crossbows, then swords, slignshots, or spears. This happened in Japan...there was a time when only troops were allowed to carry swords, or even long knives.

The fact is that there will always be people who try to gain power through lies, and there will always be people who try to gain power by using force. The first group will try to take weapons from the populous, and the second group will stockpile weapons for themselves.

Originally posted by chris4160:That may be so, but how many other innocent civillians would be killed and how many more planes hijacked if everybody was walking around with an itchy trigger finger and a loaded gun?

Probably very few if any. If a criminal wants a gun, he will get it, even if there is a weapons embargo on the entire country for everyone including the military. This has become the case in many war-torn nations, and rule is by the few with the brutality and luck to get a gun.

In most of the countries where there are a lot of terrorist attacks, guns are commonplace...the AK47 is far more common than the iPod. No one shows up to a crowded place full of people with AK47's to attempt a shooting spree; no matter how many virgins they have been promised...they can get more kills with a bomb, and getting blown up is a lot less painfull that bleeding to death from gunshot wounds.

One last thing...guns are relativly new to human history, but terrorism and violence go back further than recorded history. Some of the events commited with dull, heavy swords are far more horrific than anything in Irag, Afghanistan, or any of the dictatorships in Africa. We live in technologicaly advanced era where home video games are so powerfull that they can be used as weapons...but humans are still the same as they have been for at least the last 15,000 years. Guns get a bad name because they are seen as killing people, but they are just tools. You can kill a person with a piece of rope, a hammer, a carpet knife, a book, or just about anything. If you want an idea of how far this goes in a gun-free society, just look at the shank collection of any prison...they make knives from tooth brushes!

If we had no guns, we would be disputing making crossbows illigal, if not crossbows, then swords, slignshots, or spears. This happened in Japan...there was a time when only troops were allowed to carry swords, or even long knives.

The fact is that there will always be people who try to gain power through lies, and there will always be people who try to gain power by using force. The first group will try to take weapons from the populous, and the second group will stockpile weapons for themselves.

Yes, but criminals and terrorists aren't really the point, there will always be ways for them to get guns no matter how many laws there are. The point is if there were anti-firearm laws people that are just depressed or deranged would not easily be able to go on mass killing spree's, like the Virginia Tech massacre.

The bottom line is that more people will die as a result of guns in a country with out firearms control than a country with strict anti-firearm laws.

Quote:If you think that having a gun is freedom than you have some seriously *bleep* moral values. Anti-firearms laws were put in place in countries like Australia to stop horrific acts of terrorism, like the Port Arthur Massacre. Things like that are still happening in America. By your definition of freedom, imprisoning murderers and rapists is wrong.

If guns were the problem why are there no horrific mass shootings @ Gun shows, in Gun Stores ... or places where lots of people are armed with loaded weapons ...

But if there was anti-firearm laws then those killings in "Gun Free Zones" might not have happened. It's just too easy to get your hands on a gun. Yes, they probably would find an alternative to a gun, but I doubt they would do as much damage. Take Australia for example, the enthusiasts can still get guns, but they need extensive licenses and background checks.

Originally posted by KillerBug: I LOL when someone claims that gun prohibition prevents terrorism...imagine if you could bring guns on a plane; a handfull of terrorists would not have been able to cause 911 with a plane full of gun-toting passengers.

That may be so, but how many other innocent civillians would be killed and how many more planes hijacked if everybody was walking around with an itchy trigger finger and a loaded gun?

Originally posted by ZippyDSM: Meh gay can be fun

LOL, coming out of the closet, eh?

Not really, teh chicks dig ambiguous things ^_~

This message has been edited since its posting. Latest edit was made on 05 Dec 2009 @ 15:11

Copyright infringement is nothing more than civil disobedience to a bad set of laws. Lets renegotiate them.

Those of you who are saying that 2nd amendment rights are not deserved are full of shit. As for the countries that have banned guns, do your research. Those countries have more violent crime such as murders,rapes & robberies over quadrupled. Without the right to have a gun you are a sitting duck. When guns are outlawed only the outlaws will have them. We don't need more gun laws, we the ones we have enforced. The thugs and Gangstas and gangsta wannabes have the guns and they don't abide by the laws we have. Banning guns is not the answer.

Originally posted by filemang: Those of you who are saying that 2nd amendment rights are not deserved are full of shit. As for the countries that have banned guns, do your research. Those countries have more violent crime such as murders,rapes & robberies over quadrupled. Without the right to have a gun you are a sitting duck. When guns are outlawed only the outlaws will have them. We don't need more gun laws, we the ones we have enforced. The thugs and Gangstas and gangsta wannabes have the guns and they don't abide by the laws we have. Banning guns is not the answer.

Very true in most places guns were removed or highly restricted crime got worse.

Also we don't need most gun laws in the US, we have to many and things are to complicated, you can not be proactive with everything better faster permit approval fining people for non lethal misuse of weapons and criminalizing/sueing for lethal misuse of weapons are things we need to do not ban it and restrict it so people think they are being protected when they are not.

With this nanny agenda I wonder when cars will be banned they harm and kill far more people than weapons do....

bam431 yes guns are meant to kill. But cars kill more people than bullets everyday. At least I know my family is safe. They are all gun owning,permit holding,gun toting, God loving and god fearing people. My wife has intervened on 2 robberies & took out the would be robbers. Both my daughters have taken out would be intruders. One was a known rapist. If you want to keep living the I am safe lie, only people like you are goin to believe it. When seconds count the police are only minutes away. So I carry a gun because I refuse to outsource my families safety.

Originally posted by filemang: bam431 yes guns are meant to kill. But cars kill more people than bullets everyday. At least I know my family is safe. They are all gun owning,permit holding,gun toting, God loving and god fearing people. My wife has intervened on 2 robberies & took out the would be robbers. Both my daughters have taken out would be intruders. One was a known rapist. If you want to keep living the I am safe lie, only people like you are goin to believe it. When seconds count the police are only minutes away. So I carry a gun because I refuse to outsource my families safety.

Well where just different people with different ideals. Like you said your family are all "gun owning,permit holding,gun toting, God loving and god fearing people." and I'm not but everyone has a right to there opinion. Mine being a gun is a machine solely made for killing where as a car is normally used for transportation, but like anything else can be misused.

Originally posted by filemang: bam431 yes guns are meant to kill. But cars kill more people than bullets everyday. At least I know my family is safe. They are all gun owning,permit holding,gun toting, God loving and god fearing people. My wife has intervened on 2 robberies & took out the would be robbers. Both my daughters have taken out would be intruders. One was a known rapist. If you want to keep living the I am safe lie, only people like you are goin to believe it. When seconds count the police are only minutes away. So I carry a gun because I refuse to outsource my families safety.

Well where just different people with different ideals. Like you said your family are all "gun owning,permit holding,gun toting, God loving and god fearing people." and I'm not but everyone has a right to there opinion. Mine being a gun is a machine solely made for killing where as a car is normally used for transportation, but like anything else can be misused.

Bam I think I have to agree with us being different type people. We do agree on a couple of points though. A car is a transportation vehicle. They are constantly misused. I have misused things as simple as a pen. Yet I can't blame the pen for mispelled words. Guns are a vehicle of sorts as well. They are the vehicle used to make being a hunter & gatherer easier. Just simply each thing you find in a home can be misused as a weapon. It just depends on how deep someone wants to delve into something.