Angelique wrote:You would be right. But that's because a lot of the "editors" actully have limited writing/storytelling experience and no experience with copy editing or art direction.

Or they honestly believe that comic books are not worthy of good, polished stories. I don't care to recall how many times I've heard, "They're just comic books," used as an excuse for poor storytelling. I know comic book companies are capable of giving us better, and I want better.

I don't get why people working within the medium would want to denigrate it. That's just nuts. It's a whole other thing for people on the outside to do it, but from the inside? That's insanely stupid.
Nevertheless, so what if they are comics? Make the medium the best it can be. Show the doubters that comics can tell stories that are as good as, if not better than, what can be found in the best novels. Even if the only goal is sales, a comic with consistently solid stories will still sell better than a comic with gaping plot holes. Where's the business logic in putting out a substandard product in a medium that needs its customers to return to spend their cash on a monthly basis?

Anyhoo, this whole thing creates quite the conundrum. If Marvel allows too many books to be craptacular for too long, many readers may leave for good. Even if they hear that the books are getting better, the likely won't trust such rumors if they find the same old names listed in the credits. If they lose too many readers without managing to attract new ones, what becomes of the publishing division? They're shooting themselves in the foot by allowing high-priced sub-standard comics to see print.

And where are those lost Marvel readers? They don't really seem to be flocking to other companies, given that Marvel still holds the majority of the market share even while bleeding readers. Marvel's books aren't the only one seeing a general reduction in sales. They need to start worrying about such things if the medium is going to survive in the coming decades.

Yeah, After being a marvel fan for 27 years, with the closing of X-men forever, I am officially done. It's just not ok anymore. I don't even recognize the x-men, I remember the days when x-men don't kill was the main story and man, it was great. Back then they were heroes, people I could look up to, in stories I could read to anyone, epic tales that made me feel like I knew these people, they were my friends. Those days are done at marvel. It's sad really. My comic bill will drop for 75.00 a month, to under 10. I haven't had a 10 dollar a month comic bill since fricking 1987, 19 freaking /87/. And comics back then were what? A buck? and 10 bucks got me 2 x-men titles, new mutants, groo, conan kull and savage sword. As well as 2 Punisher titles. I'd even sneak in a batman

The death of the comics code.

At first I was like, wow, exciting... But now, I see the comics code 'encouraged' or enforced...good writing. Sadly, we need the code back I think.

Well, you could give the new Dungeons & Dragons title by IDW (I think) a try. The lead-up in the #0 issue was the most fun I've had reading a comic in a long time, a situation that's rather sad when I think about it. Issue #1 was quite enjoyable as well.

The content in comics is probably more of a sign of the times than anything. They're trying to cater to their audience, and the audience is largely made up of adult males who like action flicks. It's a similar change to the one seen in professional wrestling. It used to be easy to tell the good guys from the bad guys, but that went out the window when Steve Austin earned the love of the crowd while he was technically a heel. It wasn't part of the plan, but they ran with it. Now, it's all shades of gray.

The X-titles have always had a measure of serious content--real world themes, tragedy, etc. That's fine, but it's really been lacking in light moments in recent years. It's all struggle, death, and angst. Who wants to read that all the time? Since HoM, it's been five straight years of dark and heavy content. It's been especially bad since the move to Utopia, and it shows no signs of stopping. The characters should all be having mental breakdowns by now.

I had hoped the Heroic Age would bring about a somewhat lighter tone for the whole MU. It hasn't. At all. And it's not just the X-titles. A character dies in the first arc into the Heroic Age in Avengers. If they must insist on all this strife, it would be nice if they would insert an issue of pure character fluff between each arc.

I should have replied to this a long time ago. I am working up my own property. I have 12 issues written, 10 finished in pencils, and 11 and 12 in breakdowns waiting finished pencils. Paty and Cliff have read it and said it's good so far. More to come as I hope for a publisher.

to quote Paty, Down in flames you bastards, but no violins from me, only tears.

Indeed...Pirate Kurt's property is excellent and getting better with every issue! The first twelve issues will form a solid story arc and he is already doing the concepts for a second twelve issues, following up on hints and innuendoes laid down in the first twelve.
This is definately good stuff and I hope the industry holds onto life long enough for it to see print in either standard comic format or in digital format... something we will be looking into.
Stay tuned, everyone... good comics are still alive... some of them have just not been born yet... but they are growing and developing outta sight...waiting for their moment in the sun.
Paty

YAY!!! Good for you, Kiddo!!! If enough people write to the powers that be and keep it up, maybe they will get it through their tough skulls that you just don't gratuitously kill popular characters!!!especially OUR fuzzy elf!
Huggies
Paty

I can't attach the image here, but I had some postcards made with Nightcrawler's picture and a couple of cute phrases on the front ("Vhat do you mean, dead is dead? Since vhen? Ach bring me back") and then a little blurb on the back "Bring back the real Nightcrawler and return the heart (and humour) of the X-Men. Not every X-Man has to be an anti-hero. He is a beloved, iconic character who was killed for no other reason that to add shock value to a story arc."

Cool beans!!! I love it!
who knows what evil lurks in the hearts of Marvel editors...They have taken over like giant slugs... befouling everything. I truely believe that writers are no longer free to just tell stories... they have to follow some diabolical plan set out for them by editorial... and that is not how it should be!!!
Editors are supposed to help a writer with THE WRITER'S stories!!! Yeah, they have to try to coordinate with other venues within the company... I mean... you simply CAN'T have Wolverine appearing in seventeen places at the same time from Kyoto to the freakin' Shi'ar empire!!! now can you???
Oh... right ... silly me ... of course you can... HE'S the MULTIPLE MAN!!!
What killed Nightcrawler was GREED!!! No reason but a stab at increased sales!!! and the powers that governed the books at the time considered the shock value of death and more death the best way to do that. How stupid!!! Death is only shocking if it only happens occasionally... not every other month... or every other issue!!! I mean... how can you get worked up about one death when the idiots have just killed a bus load of kids? ... sixteen million mutants???... etc...etc... ad infinitum, ad nauseum...
Keep up the good fight everyone... maybe someone at Marvel will realize sooner or later that you don't hold onto fans by teeing them off consistantly and constantly with stupid plotlines that are done in worse and worse fashion...or maybe Disney...noted for it's care of it's properties... will let them hang themselves and finally step in and put a stop to this stupid, avant guarde, cutting edge crap!!!
All we want is good stories again...and our fave characters acting in the manner we were accustomed to having them act....sigh...

I love the innovation of your attack by snail mail, though. It is sooo easy for Marvel folk to push the "delete" button on an email... but holding a letter or post card...especially a custom one...in their slimy paws is harder to ignore!
Bravo!

I have a contact point for the Disney CEO, Robert Iger. I've already written him. If Marvel doesn't care, maybe Disney will.
Robert A. Iger,
President and CEO of the Walt Disney Company
500 S. Buena Vista Street
Burbank, CA 91521
Email: robert.a.iger@disney.com

Incidentally, one of the things I brought up was the fact that Kurt was one of the few non-pretty or visually not standard-Caucasian appearing mutants that was a former A-lister, other than Storm. It seems a pretty scary thing, the current trend at Marvel and who is spot-lighted. Maybe other people don't see it the same way as I.

thank you soooooo much for this info. The whitewash tide at marvel is sweeping in and ethnic diversity as well as sexual equality is being pounded into the ground. Stan tried to diversify when he was in control ... he knew the future of the medium was in as much diversity as he could create. when he went to lala land, it sorta held true for a while under shooter, although strong women took a hit...but writers like Claremont, who were building Marvel's rep and stock, used strong women and a wide diversity of ethnic characters to good advantage, both storywise and monitarily.
Under Hardass, the aryan race strode back in with hobnailed boots and when Hardass was finally booted out, Quesada wishywashied back and forth between intelligent people at the office and the plants Hardass put in place... which are now totally ruining marvel with their own agendas.
Personally, I was hoping when Disney bought Marvel, they would protect the characters continuity as they protect the rat and his ilk... which they do with great vigor. Apparently not... and the total destruction of Marvel goes on apace with the wild success of the Avengers movie... which Brevoort had little if nothing to do with but will use to push his/Hardass' agenda.
I dunno if we can change this totally evil tide, but we can surely try. I don't know where Alonso stands, actually, but it seems that right now Brevoort is pushing his considerable weight around and they are killing off beloved characters right and left... they have disenfranchised the X Men franchise and are folding them into the Avengers... which is stupidity supreme...unless there is legal carap with the movie rights... which may be part and parcel of that. Fox owns the rights to the Xm men franchise for movies... and Marvel/Disney owns the movie rights to the Avengers. If you fold the X Men into the Avengers, do those characters become fodder for your movie mill? There might be a battle royal on that... but Disney has lotsa good lawyers... but that may be what they are trying to do.
In the process, they are destroying charactes that have made Marvel what it is and wiping out diversity in the process. Sieg Heil, Marvel!! It seems to be a pogrom on anything Claremont did... and with him, of course, all those wonderful characters that Dave created... including, but not limited to, Nightcrawler!!! I won't even go into what they might have in mind for Magneto...
Nightcrawler is weird looking but doesn't let that get him down... he is a happy swashbuckler of the Errol Flynn, Sea Hawk/Robin Hood ilk. He verges on being the Crimson Pirate...a movie I thoroughly suggest since it was one of Dave's favorites and may have even set the tone for Johnny Depp's Capt'n Jack Sparrow! Very tongue in cheek, ribald, fun...on the high seas! ... or thereabouts...

In any event, thanks for this info!!! I suggest every person on this forum send off emails and snail mails to Mr Iger enlightening him on the evils happening at marvel right now with the destruction of favorite characters that have been LISTEN TO THIS, DISNEY moneymakers for close to half a century!
Cancelling Uncanny on the eve of it's fiftieth anniversary is about the stupidest thing I have ever heard of!!! Destroying established and beloved characters because you are jealous of Claremont's body of work and brilliant, at times, writing is not only immoral it is fiscally irresponsible!!!
Now, Perlmutter is a major stockholder in Disney right now and may be calling some shots... and Perlmutter seems to only care about the money... but I cannot see Disney letting the pipsqueaks at Marvel NY ruin very lucrative and popular characters as they seem bound and determined to do.
Somebody at Disney needs a wakeup call in spades!
Thanks again and all I can say is WRITE PEOPLE, WRITE!!!!!

If people have never watched Errol Flynn movies, they are a real treat, then again, I'm an old film buff.

At least speaking for me and mine, part of Nightcrawler's appeal over the years is that people of any race, ethnicity or orientation can identify with him. He doesn't fit into any known concept of race, but that very fact gives him extremely broad appeal, and makes him one that readers from any minority group can identify with. Does Marvel think these elusive 'new readers', the ones they are so keen to capture, have no minorities in their numbers? That was part of what has made the concept of mutants so popular in the mainstream world, I believe – a fictional representation of issues regarding diversity. Yet, Marvel chooses to focus on characters like Cyclops, Wolverine, Rogue, Captain America, etc., to the exclusion of others. It's a sad state.

good for you, kiddo...LOL. Nightcrawler was Dave. Nighty was his alter ego... just as mine was the Scarlet Witch... which, when I got the hots for Magneto and they mede me his daughter gaveme some mental quandries...LOL
we DO take our characters seriously! they are icons for us...all we would love to be... all we might be...if we strive hard enough. Yeah...nighty was every kid out there that was weird in some way in their own minds...His weird hands were the hands of a kid that Dave actually knew and he wasn't exactly human but human enough to have a sorta displaced view on all the humans around him... not unlike the appeal of Spock in the original Star Trek... and every kid that felt alienated immediately identified with this character. But the key to his personality was that he never lost his sense of fun and adventure and doing right and doing good and helping others... heroism in it's purest form. I have heard some folks say tht Cyclops is the heart and soul of the X Men... and that is not true...Nightcrawler is the heart and soul of the X Men. We need heroes like that so what Marvel is doing is totally incomprehensible. Marvel is basically flipping off the fans who have stuck with them for thirty , forty and fifty years!!! You don't matter you old fogeys... we don't want to have to adhere to characterizations and history built up for all these decades so go away and let us use the names and warp them any way we want to cuz we cannot construct anything original... and we are too inept to take established characters and build ON history rather than tear it down, steal the names... for recognition purposes... and do it OUR way.
It's depressing. I am glad I am old and may be dead before they totally destroy the industry...cuz a world without comic books isn't worth living in. when the wonder and fantasy and adventure goes away, there is only drudgery and hopelessness... that's not a very hopeful or pretty package.
It is a hopeful thing to me that readers younger than myself... I assume you are younger than me...are willing to stand up and be counted when they see bad stuff going down... and will fight for the characters they have come to love and admire sooo much.
I am pleased and happy to pass the torch to you folks. I have fought the vipers at Marvel for decades and am tired. When they "killed" Nightcrawler I said that's enough. I quit buying ANY Marvel product. I haven't read a Marvel book for two years now. Which is kinda bad cuz my man Magneto was treated very well by Carey, I am told, by my friend and fellow magophile, Rivka. I missed that... I may buy the backish. It's not that I have given up on GOOD writing and characterization, but it is getting harder and harder to find... especiall since it's originator, Hardass, is in power over at DC and doing to them what he was doing here at Marvel!!! and how they didn't see what was happening over at Marvel and say " keep that guy away from US!!!" boggles my mind! But, as the old saw says, those who do not learn from history are bound to repeat it.
Sigh...
Keep up the fight, kiddo...it is up to a new generation to voice their opinions and make their wants known to the movers and shakers at Marvel and disney...and posting the info you have may help in that fight!

Paty wrote:...they are icons for us...all we would love to be... all we might be...if we strive hard enough. Yeah...nighty was every kid out there that was weird in some way in their own minds...His weird hands were the hands of a kid that Dave actually knew and he wasn't exactly human but human enough to have a sorta displaced view on all the humans around him... not unlike the appeal of Spock in the original Star Trek... and every kid that felt alienated immediately identified with this character. But the key to his personality was that he never lost his sense of fun and adventure and doing right and doing good and helping others... heroism in it's purest form. I have heard some folks say tht Cyclops is the heart and soul of the X Men... and that is not true...Nightcrawler is the heart and soul of the X Men.

Absolutely! I was that out-of-place kid that felt an immediate kinship with Nightcrawler. I can't tell you how much the character's personality example helped me get through some tough situations in childhood, as well as adulthood. We DO get caught up in them, there's no doubt. These guys take on a similar importance to old and familiar friends in some ways, and I really don't see wanting to emulate characters like Nightcrawler any different than kids wanting to be like the rapper, Eminem or someone similar. It's still an unknown 'person' who represents someone you want to be like.

If Cyclops, with his single-visioned, dictatorial, militaristic stance is the heart of the X-Men, then they have no heart, only dogma.

Paty wrote:
Marvel is basically flipping off the fans who have stuck with them for thirty , forty and fifty years!!!

Yep, that they are.

Paty wrote:
a world without comic books isn't worth living in. when the wonder and fantasy and adventure goes away, there is only drudgery and hopelessness... that's not a very hopeful or pretty package.

It is a hopeful thing to me that readers younger than myself... I assume you are younger than me...are willing to stand up and be counted when they see bad stuff going down... and will fight for the characters they have come to love and admire sooo much.
I am pleased and happy to pass the torch to you folks.

That's very well said, regarding the world we have left without comics. As a fan of 32 years, I feel very similar. It's one of the last hold-out genres that still retains some of the magic. So much in the way of films, television and games have gone the way of cheap thrills and special effects with zero emphasis on story-telling.

As far as age goes, I don't think I hit the target market for Marvel -- I'm 41, though I've birthed a new generation of comic fans. My son (a teenager) has liked the X-Men since he was a small boy and my youngest, almost six, thinks the "poofy guy"(as she calls Nightcrawler) is the absolute bee's knees. She adores him, which is probably fitting as she happens to have been born on November 11th. No, I didn't plan that! LOL.

Paty wrote:
Keep up the fight, kiddo...

I plan too. I'm nothing if not tenacious. Thanks so much for replying, by the way. Yours and your husband's legacy have impacted so many people over the years in such a positive way --- thank you for that!

Is your eyesight better? I read before that you had some trouble with it. I hope things have improved for you.

well...thank you for your kind words. My friends say I do not realize that my viewpoints are important... which they say they are. I will have those viewpoints, however, and I will speak them into the aether in the hope that someone will hear them and dream of great things again...

the eyesight is what it is. I became legally blind in '99 due to a stroke in my optic nerves of both eyes and the optic neurologist had not much hope fro me regaining much. Within three years I had gotten thirty percent of my vision back...then it slowed down... as I apparently was training my peripheral vision to act as central vision. It actually continues to improve somewhat each year and every night I tell my brain to grow more optic nerve... ya gotta program your brain sometimes to do things... no one is born wanting to eat lobster... it is an acquired taste...LOL...which I never acquired since I am anaphalactly allergic to crustateons... shrimp, lobster, crab, crayfish, etc...BUT sometimes you CAN program the body... so every night, I tell it to grow more optic nerve. I think I would risk at least one of the eyes on stem cell implants and see if that didn't help...but short of that, I muddle through and am trying to get back to drawing, using a CCTV. I did the pencils for a seven page story for my friend Rivka which was published in a british book, FTL #5 from Orangutan Comics , last year. It was a somewhat illustrative and whimsical piece about a witch around the turn of the nineteenth into the twentieth centuries. rivka writes wonderful creepy shortstories which can be read on a site called Elephant Words, and this was a somewhat less creepy one that she wanted to put into comic format. It was great fun doing it and it didn't turn out too bad for someone who is still so legally blind that I can't drive a car, much less my firetruck!!!

The state of some of the comics these days is, I fear, little more than sex and violence... and, quite frankly, I would welcome the Comics Code back... if only to make writers use stories to sell comics rather than the pervasive sex and bigger and bigger explosions with greater and greater gobs of blood flying everywhere. Scott used to be the boy scout of the X Men... slightly stuffy but upright and heroic to a faretheewell. Today he is little more than a thug like wolverine... who is NO hero to me and shouldn't be to anyone these days. wolverine was interesting when he was supposedly trying not to kill and to regain some samuri honor... now, he is just a thug and a nasty killing machine. and I hear they are gonna ...once again... kill off charlie and make him jesus charley being assumed into heaven on clouds of light... gag me with a spoon... I hope that rumor doe NOT pan out!!!

In any event, the bigwigs... or at least Perlmutter, who has a huge say in what happens with Marvel...are apparently in it for the money so the movies will be the tail that wags the dog for the forseeable future. Fortunately, on the other hand, the people making the movies are enamored of the characters as they stood in the late seventies and eighties, so the characterizations are mostly based on THOSE characterizations...rther than the "cutting edge" and degraded characterizations of today's comics. we will just have to see if publishing will come to it's senses and follow the lead of the movies and return the characters to the G or PG rating tht brought so much fame and fortune to Marvel before the hopeless Hardass years. At 41, you may see it... at 70, I probably will not... but I can hope, can't I? At one point, Marvel was wonderful... Camelot... and I would love to see it go back there. Whether this is even possible, I don't know... but, again, I can dream.........

amen, brother!!! since the demise of the comics code authority... which was, I admit, a bunch of little old ladies saying no, no, no...LOL...storytelling has gone by the board in many cases. there are still some good writers out there but, in the interest of editorial, in correlating everything and making crossovers that force people to buy comics they have no interest in, these good writers have become little more than scripters, putting words to plotlines formed by committee...so the freshness, the story in EVERY issue and the divergence of style is lost. When your storylines become nothing but sex and violence, killing and warping of the core characterizations of the characters...what can you expect?

We used to debate, in the offices, whether multiple issues stories should be allowed. The guiding rule was A COMPLETE STORY IN EVERY ISSUE... if a larger story played out over several issues, that was a story arc. Nowadays, each issue is little more than a vignette...part of a story... and the "arc" is actually the whole story... the only story... that is played out over four, six, eight , ten or twelve issues. No story in every book... WTF?

If Stan were dead, he would be rolling in his grave...but he isn't... Happy Birthday a day or so late, Stan...
HE wouldn't have let the books get in such a bad way....
But I blame the death of the Comics code and would really like to see a version of it come back because it is evident the companies either cannot or will not regulate themselves.

when a whole busload of mutant children is destroyed and there is no outcry... when sixteen million mutants on Genosha are slaughtered, and that is ALLOWED in the books...which, c incedentally, was the estimated jewish population in Europe before Hitler and his ilk committed genocide...gee, I winder if that is a co incidence... THERE ARE NO COINCIDENCES... COINCIDENCE IS MAMA NATURE SAYING HEY YOU... PAY ATTENTION!!!

I haven't read a comic in a long long while. Ihave , in the last year, colored the new printing of DAve's last Futurians story , coming out from Aardwolf Publishing... yes, it is finally, after many glitches, at the printer!!!
Old fashioned coloring for reproduction...no computers need apply, thank you very much!
Order it from Aardwolf if you want a copy...it isn't gonna be in the stores unles the owner of the store was smart and preordered from Aardwolf

OK... enough of this... May I wish all youfans and the folk at Nightscrawlers a very happy, safe and healthy new year!!!
MAGNETO RULES... XAVIER DROOLS!!!
lol
HUGGIES,, Y'ALL!!