Interview with Malcolm X

By A.B. Spellman, Monthly Review, Vol.16 no.1, May
1964

[The following interview with Malcolm X, formerly the
minister of the New York City and Washington, D.C. mosques
of the Lost-Found Nation of Islam, headed by The Honorable
Elijah Muhammad, was held on March 19, 1964. The interview,
conducted by poet and jazz critic A.B. Spellman, appeared
simultaneously in Monthly Review and Revolution.]

The Muslims, as the Nation of Islam is called, stress the
futility of the integrationist program. They argue that
there is no precedent for the absorption of Negroes into the
greater white American mainstream in fact or in history,
that integrationists are asking for something the American
socioeconomic system is inherently unable to give them --
mass class mobility, so that at best Negroes can expect from
the integrationist program a hopeless entry into the lowest
levels of a working class already disenfranchised by
automation.

The Muslims tell Negroes to be proud of their African
heritage, to make a new identity for themselves by adopting
an X or a Muslim surname and dropping their slave name,
thereby severing all ties with a history of subservience to
whites. The Muslims have urged Negroes to be polite in their
dealings with whites and to be non-violent, even if
provoked. But if attacked, the Muslims say, a Negro should
defend himself by any means at his disposal. The Muslim
solution to the race problem in America is separation of the
races, either in the allocation to Negroes of several states
in the South or the repatriation of Negroes to Africa. (The
separatist solution has been in the programs of several
movements varying in size and appeal since the early
nineteenth century, culminating in the Garvey movement
which, though irreparably fragmented, still has considerable
appeal in many major Negro communities.) Estimates of Muslim
membership have ranged from 10,000 to 250,000.

There had been rumors for some months to the effect that a
split was developing in the upper ranks of Muslim leadership
between a conservative and highly religiously-oriented
faction led by Mr. Muhammad's family (which controls all the
money) and a political activist faction led by Malcolm X.
The split came early this March when Malcolm left the Nation
of Islam to start an all-black political party. Malcolm is
an overwhelming public speaker, particularly in Harlem where
his positive demagogy is unchallengeable in the hearts and
eyes of his audience, and in question and answer, or in debating
situations where the stark realities of his uncompromising ghetto-eyed
point of view can usually embarrass his antagonist, especially if that
opponent is a black or white liberal. Malcolm is a product of the
ghetto. He is the crystallization of whatever revolutionary impulse
exists in the ghetto. He is an organizer and administrator of proven
ability. For these reasons, he has the potential of becoming one of
the really major revolutionists in America today.

SPELLMAN: Please answer these charges that are often raised against
you: That you are as racist as Hitler and the Klan, etc. That you are
anti-Semitic. That you advocate mob violence.

MALCOLM X: No, we're not racists at all. Our brotherhood is based on
the fact that we are all black, brown, red, or yellow. We don't call
this racism, any more than you could refer to the European Common
Market which consists of Europeans, which means that it consists of
white-skin people -- is not referred to as a racist coalition -- it's
referred to as the European Common Market, an economic group -- while
our desire for unity among black, brown, red, and yellow is for
brotherhood -- has nothing to do with racism, has nothing to do with
Hitler, has nothing to do with the Klan -- in fact, the Klan in this
country was designed to perpetuate an injustice upon Negroes; whereas
the Muslims are designed to eliminate the injustice that has been
perpetuated upon the so-called Negro.

We're anti-exploitation and in this country the Jews have been located
in the so-called Negro community as merchants and businessmen for so
long that they feel guilty when you mention that the exploiters of
Negroes are Jews. This doesn't mean that we are anti-Jews or
anti-Semitic -- we're anti-exploitation.

No. We have never been involved in any kind of violence whatsoever. We
have never initiated any violence against anyone, but we do believe
that when violence is practiced against us we should be able to defend
ourselves. We don't believe in turning the other cheek.

SPELLMAN: Why did you find it necessary to split with the Nation of
Islam?

MALCOLM X: Well, I did encounter opposition within the Nation the of
Islam. Many obstacles were placed in my path, not by the Honorable
Elijah Muhammad, but by others who were around him and since I believe
that his analysis of the race problem is the best one and his solution
is the only one, I felt that I could best circumvent these obstacles
and expedite his program better by remaining out of the Nation of
Islam and establishing a Muslim group that is an action group designed
to eliminate the same ills that the teachings of the Honorable Elijah
Muhammad have made so manifest in this country.

SPELLMAN: What is the name of the organization that you have founded?

MALCOLM X: The Muslim Mosque Inc., which means we are still Muslims --
we still worship in a mosque and we're incorporated as a religious
body.

SPELLMAN: Can other Muslims work with the Muslim Mosque Inc. without
leaving the Nation of Islam?

MALCOLM X: Oh yes. Yes anyone who is in the Nation of Islam who wants
to work with us and remain in the Nation of Islam, is welcome. I am a
follower of the Honorable Elijah Muhammad -- I believe in the
Honorable Elijah Muhammad. The only reason I am in the Muslim Mosque
Inc. is because I feel I can better expedite his program by being free
of the restraint and the other obstacles that I encountered in the
Nation.

SPELLMAN: Will you have access to Muhammad Speaks?

MALCOLM X: Probably not. No, I very much doubt that the same forces
which forced me out would permit me access to the Muhammad Speaks
newspaper as an organ although I am the founder of the paper, the
originator of the paper. Few people realize it -- I was the one who
originated Muhammad Speaks. The initial editions were written entirely
by me in my basement.

SPELLMAN: Will you start another publication?

MALCOLM X: Yes. One of the best ways to propagate any idea is with a
publication of some sort and if Allah blesses us with success we will
have another publication. We'll probably name it the Flaming
Crescentbecause we want to set the world on fire.

SPELLMAN: How religious is the Muslim Mosque Inc.? Will it be more
politically oriented?

MALCOLM X: The Muslim Mosque Inc. will have as its religious base the
religion of Islam which will be designed to propagate the moral
reformation necessary to up the level of the so-called Negro community
by eliminating the vices and other evils that destroy the moral fiber
of the community -- this is the religious base. But the political
philosophy of the Muslim Mosque will be black nationalism, the
economic philosophy will be black nationalism, and the social
philosophy will be black nationalism. And by political philosophy I
mean we still believe in the Honorable Elijah Muhammad's solution as
complete separation. The 22,000,000 so-called Negroes should be
separated completely from America and should be permitted to go back
home to our African homeland which is a long-range program; so the
short-range program is that we must eat while we're still here, we
must have a place to sleep, we have clothes to wear, we must have
better jobs, we must have better education; so that although our
long-range political philosophy is to migrate back to our African
homeland, our short-range program must involve that which is necessary
to enable us to live a better life while we are still here. We must be
in complete control of the politics of the so-called Negro community;
we must gain complete control over the politicians in the so-called
Negro community, so that no outsider will have any voice in the
so-called Negro community. We'll do it ourselves.

SPELLMAN: Whom do you hope to draw from in organizing this political
movement -- what kind of people?

MALCOLM X: All -- we're flexible -- a variety. But our accent will be
upon youth. We've already issued a call for the students in the
colleges and universities across the country to launch their own
independent studies of the race problem in he country and then bring
their analyses and their suggestions for a new approach back to us so
that we can devise an action program geared to their thinking. The
accent is on youth because the youth have less at stake in this
corrupt system and therefore can look at it more objectively, whereas
the adults usually have a stake in this corrupt system and they lose
their ability to look at it objectively because of their stake in it.

SPELLMAN: Do you expect to draw from the Garveyite groups?

MALCOLM X: All groups -- Nationalist, Christians, Muslims, Agnostics,
Atheists, anything. Everybody who is interested in solving the problem
is given an invitation to become actively involved with either
suggestions or ideas or something.

SPELLMAN: Will the organization be national?

MALCOLM X: National? I have gotten already an amazing number of
letters from student groups at college campuses across the country
expressing a desire to become involved in a united front in this new
idea that we have.

SPELLMAN: What kind of coalition do you plan to make? Can whites join
the Muslim Mosque Inc.?

MALCOLM X: Whites can't join us. Everything that whites join that
Negroes have they end up out-joining the Negroes. The whites control
all Negro organizations that they can join -- they end up in control
of those organizations. If whites want to help us financially we will
accept their financial help, but we will never let them join us.

SPELLMAN: Then black leadership is necessary?

MALCOLM X: Absolutely black leadership.

SPELLMAN: Will you work with the so-called established civil
rights organizations?

MALCOLM X: Well, we will work with them in any area and on any
objective that doesn't conflict with our own political, economic, and
social philosophy which is black nationalism. I might add that I was
invited to attend a civil rights group meeting where all of the
various civil rights organizations were present and I was invited to
address them in Chester, Pennsylvania. Gloria Richardson was there;
Landrey, the head of the Chicago School Boycott, was there; Dick
Gregory was there; many others were there; the Rochedale movement was
there. Now my address to them was designed to show them that if they
would expand their civil rights movement to a human rights movement it
would internationalize it. Now, as a civil rights movement, it remains
within the confines of American domestic policy and no African
independent nations can open up their mouths on American domestic
affairs, whereas if they expanded the civil rights movement to a human
rights movement then they would be eligible to take the case of the
Negro to the United Nations the same as the case of the Angolans is in
the UN and the case of the South Africans is in the UN. Once the civil
rights movement is expanded to a human rights movement our African
brothers and our Asian brothers and Latin American brothers can place
it on the agenda at the General Assembly that is coming up this year
and Uncle Sam has no more say-so in it then. And we have friends
outside the UN -- 700,000,000 Chinese who are ready to die for human
rights.

SPELLMAN: Do you intend to collaborate with such other groups as labor
unions or socialist groups or any other groups?

MALCOLM X: We will work with anybody who is sincerely interested in
eliminating injustices that Negroes suffer at the hands of Uncle Sam.

SPELLMAN: What is your evaluation of the civil rights movement at this
point?

MALCOLM X: It has run its -- it's at the end of its leash.

SPELLMAN: What groups do you consider most promising?

MALCOLM X: I know of no group that is promising unless it's
radical. If it's not radical it is in no way involved effectively in
the present struggle.

SPELLMAN: Some local civil rights leaders lave said they'd welcome
your support, some national leaders have said they want nothing to do
with you, what is your reaction?

MALCOLM X: Well, the local civil rights leaders are usually involved
right in the midst of the situation. They see it as it is and they
realize that it takes a combination of groups to attack the problem
most effectively and, also, most local civil rights leaders have more
independence of action and usually they are more in tune and in touch
with the people. But the national leaders of the civil rights
movement are out of touch with the problem and usually they are paid
leaders. The local leaders usually have a job and they lean against
the local situation on the side, but the nationally known leaders are
paid. They are full-time leaders, they are professional leaders and
whoever pays their salary has a great say-so in what they do and what
they don't do, so naturally the ones who pay the salaries of these
nationally known Negro leaders are the white liberals and white
liberals are shocked and frightened whenever you mention anything
about some X's.

SPELLMAN: What is your attitude toward Christian-Gandhian groups?

MALCOLM X: Christian? Gandhian? I don't go for anything that's
non-violent and turn-the-other-cheekish. I don't see how any
revolution -- I've never heard of a non-violent revolution or a
revolution that was brought about by turning the other cheek, and so I
believe that it is a crime for anyone to teach a person who is being
brutalized to continue to accept that brutality without doing
something to defend himself. If this is what the Christian-Gandhian
philosophy teaches then it is criminal -- a criminal philosophy.

SPELLMAN: Does the Muslim Mosque Inc. oppose integration and
intermarriage?

MALCOLM X: We don't have to oppose integration because the white
integrationists themselves oppose it. Proof of which, it doesn't exist
anywhere where white people say they are for it. There's just no such
thing as integration anywhere, but we do oppose intermarriage. We are
as much against intermarriage as we are against all of the other
injustices that our people have encountered.

SPELLMAN: What is the program for achieving your goals of separation?

MALCOLM X: A better word to use than separation is independence. This
word separation is misused. The 13 colonies separated from England but
they called it the Declaration of Independence; they don't call it the
Declaration of Separation, They call it the Declaration of
Independence. When you're independent of someone you can separate from
them. If you can't separate from them it means you're not independent
of them. So, your question was what?

SPELLMAN: What is your program for achieving your goals of
independence?

MALCOLM X: When the black man in this country awakens, becomes
intellectually mature and able to think for himself, you will then see
that the only way he will become independent and recognized as a human
being on the basis of equality with all other human beings, he has to
have what they have and he has to be doing for himself what others are
doing for themselves so the first step is to awaken him to this and
that is where the religion of Islam makes him morally more able to
rise above the evils and the vices of an immoral society and the
political, economic, and social philosophy of black nationalism
instills within him the racial dignity and the incentive and the
confidence that he needs to stand on his own feet and take a stand for
himself.

SPELLMAN: Do you plan to employ any kind of mass action?

MALCOLM X: Oh, yes.

SPELLMAN: What kinds?

MALCOLM X: We'd rather not say at this time, but we definitely plan to
employ mass action.

SPELLMAN: How about the vote -- will the Muslim Mosque Inc. run its
own candidates or support other candidates?

MALCOLM X: Since the political structure is what has been used to
exploit the so-called Negroes, we intend to gather together all of the
brilliant minds of students, not the adult politicians who are part of
the corruption but the students of political science, we intend to
gather all of them together and get their findings, get their
analyses, get their suggestions, and, out of these suggestions we will
devise an approach that will enable us to attack the politicians and
the political structure where it hurts the most, in order to get a
change.

SPELLMAN: If the Muslim Mosque Inc. joined in a demonstration
sponsored by a non-violent organization, and whites countered with
violence, how would your organization react?

MALCOLM X: We are non-violent only with non-violent people -- I'm
non-violent as long as somebody else is non-violent -- as soon as they
get violent they nullify my non-violence.

SPELLMAN: A lot of leaders of other organizations have said they would
welcome your help but they qualify that by saying if you follow our
philosophy. Would you work with them under these circumstances?

MALCOLM X: We can work with all groups in anything but at no time will
we give up our right to defend ourselves. We'll never become involved
in any kind of action that deprives us of our right to defend
ourselves if we are attacked.

SPELLMAN: How would the Muslim Mosque Inc. handle a Birmingham,
Danville, or Cambridge -- what do you think should have been done?

MALCOLM X: In Birmingham, since the government has proven itself
either unable or unwilling to step in and find those who are guilty
and bring them to justice, it becomes necessary for the so-called
Negro who was the victim to do this himself, and he would be upholding
his constitutional rights by so doing, and Article 2 of the
constitution -- it says concerning the right to bear arms in the Bill
of Rights: A well-regulated militia being necessary to the security
of a free state, the right of the people to keep and bear arms shall
not be infringed. Negroes don't realize this, that they are within
their constitutional rights to own a rifle, to own a shotgun, and when
the bigoted white supremacists realize that they are dealing with
Negroes who are ready to give their lives in defense of life and
property, then these bigoted whites will change their whole strategy
and their whole attitude.

SPELLMAN: You've said this will be the most violent year in the
history of race relations in America. Elaborate.

MALCOLM X: Yes. Because the Negro has already given up on
non-violence. This new-thinking Negro is beginning to realize that
when he demonstrates for what the government says are his rights then
the law should be on his side. Anyone standing in front of him
reclaiming his rights is breaking the law. Now, you're not going to
have a law-breaking element inflicting violence upon Negroes who are
trying to implement the law, so that when they begin to see this, like
this, they are going to strike back. In 1964 you'll find Negroes will
strike back, there never will be non-violence anymore, that has run
out.

SPELLMAN: What is your evaluation of Monroe?

MALCOLM X: I'm not too up on the situation in Monroe, N.C. I do know
that Robert Williams became an exile from this country simply because
he was trying to get our people to defend themselves against the Klu
Klux Klan and other white supremacist elements, and also May Mallory
was given 20 years or something like that because she was also trying
to fight the place of our people down there; so this gives you an idea
of what happens in a democracy -- in a so-called democracy -- when
people try to implement that democracy.

SPELLMAN: You often use the word revolution, is there a revolution
underway in America now?

MALCOLM X: There hasn't been. Revolution is like a forest fire. It
burns everything in its path. The people who are involved in a
revolution don't become a part of the system -- they destroy the
system, they change the system. The genuine word for a revolution is
Umwalzung which means a complete overturning and a complete change and
the Negro Revolution is no revolution because it condemns the system
and then asks the system that it has condemned to accept them into
their system. That's not a revolution -- a revolution changes the
system, it destroys the system and replaces it with a better one. It's
like a forest fire like I said -- it burns everything in its path and
the only way to stop a forest fire from burning down your house is to
ignite a fire that you control and use it against the fire that is
burning out of control. What the white man in America has done, he
realizes that there is a Black Revolution all over the world -- a
non-white revolution all over the world -- and he sees it sweeping
down upon America and in order to hold it back he ignited an
artificial fire which he has named the Negro Revolt and he is using
the Negro Revolt against the real Black Revolution that is going on
all over this earth.

SPELLMAN: Can the race problem in America be solved under the existing
political-economic system?

MALCOLM X: No.

SPELLMAN: Well then, what is the answer?

MALCOLM X: It answers itself.

SPELLMAN: Can there be any revolutionary change in America while the
hostility between black and white working classes exists? Can Negroes
do it alone?

MALCOLM X: Yes. They'll never do it with working-class whites. The
history of America is that working-class whites have been just as much
against not only working-class Negroes, but all Negroes, period,
because all Negroes are working class within the caste system. The
richest Negro is treated like a working-class Negro. There never has
been any good relationship between the working-class Negro and the
working-class whites. I just don't go along with -- there can be no
worker solidarity until there's first some black solidarity. There can
be no white/black solidarity until there's first some black
solidarity. We have got to get our problems solved first and then if
there's anything left to work on the white man's problems, good, but I
think one of the mistakes Negroes make is this worker solidarity
thing. There's no such thing -- it didn't even work in Russia. Right
now it was supposedly solved in Russia but as soon as they got their
problems solved they fell out with China.

MALCOLM X: We are all brothers of oppression and today brothers of
oppression are identified with each other all over the world.

SPELLMAN: Is there anything else you want to say?

MALCOLM X: No. I've said enough -- maybe I've said too much.

Copyright (c) 1964-2001 Monthly Review. All Rights Reserved.

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