Dreaming about Dark Eldar design

Now bear with me folks. This might be a tough pill to swallow, but honest to God I haven't touched my DE for almost a year now. In fact, I haven't done much 40K in general. This isn't because I don't like the game, or the setting, it's just because I have been doing other hobbies and time is finite. The complete and utter destruction of WHFB also made me deeply depressed from a hobby perspective.

I think every time I look at someone else's homebrew, or want to put on my designer hat on, I know that I'll be disappointed that no matter what down the road. GW will just disappoint again. Not to sound completely down, but it's been that way for the 14 or so years I've played this army and it's not going to change. As a more positive spin on things, seeing CW Eldar and Corsairs in 7th actually give me quite a bit of hope for Dark Eldar in the next book. There is quite a bit of changes in there in terms of prices and new mechanics that makes me think the next DE book might turn out OK.

The biggest, and I mean absolute biggest riddle, is that GW can't really solve how to convey the notion that DE is supposed to be lightning fast (when there's tons of armies that move as fast), hit extremely hard (they don't really hit that hard), and die to a swift breeze (this they got right) onto the table-top. I went to bed thinking about this last night and thought about something I might try for fun. Keep in mind that I do have quite a bit of professional design experience, so I thought why not, what's the harm of thinking about this a little bit more?

Too bad that most of the thinking hit me at 1am in the morning while I'm lying in bed, thinking about where my DE army actually is. As in physically, it's somewhere in the garage. About an hour later, I decided that if I was going to do anything I was going to start from the beginning. I wanted to capture the glass cannon army that DE actually is without changing any of the units just yet. For me, the first couple of rules that an army book presents sets the tone for the rest of the book. That's why the first three must define the overall character, feel and justification for having such an army in the first place.

Three special rules, that's all I'm going to talk about for now. I want it to be consistent with GW design, but at the same time, clearly define what Dark Eldar is supposed to resemble on the table top. This is the biggest challenge that GW has, and continuously over the years, I have yet to see them capture this to my liking. These three special rules are supposed to represent what the Dark Eldar are from a fantasy perspective. By that, I mean how you envision the army in your imagination while closing your eyes, and the difficult part of this is how would you actually write rules for it on the tabletop. These rules would represent how the army is supposed to fight, how it behaves, and how it interacts with the other army across the table. Truth be told: This upcoming part is a total out of body experience. I need you to imagine what I'm seeing in my head on your minis table. Hopefully, the next couple of hastily written paragraphs will get you there.

The first of these rules is: Power from Pain

The fantasy: Dark Eldar are tyrannical, ruthless killers who literally feed on the souls of their victims. As Phil Kelly presented in the 5th Ed. book, they literally become imbued with supernatural might and resilience, eventually turning into uncontrollable killing machines. As the carnage intensifies, so does the Dark Eldar's barbarity and vitality.

The design: Battle in this game is waged through game turns. It not only represents the flow of time, but the course the battle as well. The GW design team has already showcased that with a chart in the current book. I've decided to keep the current system while increasing the effects on the first and last turn. My reasoning for this is that the game starts on Turn 1, where the bullets start flying and men start dying. This should already be a very arousing time for most Dark City inhabitants.

The fantasy: The Dark Eldar value speed above all else. They are extremely fast, opportunistic and unfair to the lesser species in the galaxy. Dark Eldar will strike fast, strike hard, and strike from the most unseen places to inflict the maximum amount of terror and death before the harvest can begin.

The design: Vehicles can shoot one more weapon than normally allowed before or after moving flat out. Essentially, this allows the army to always move and shoot; solving the Ravager issue completely while subtly increasing the overall power of the entire army. All of a sudden you can DS to fire for full, flat out and shoot at the same time, giving you maximum value out of a single Lance on a Raider, or attacking from an angle that would be impossible from any other race. This increases the value of all of our heavy weapons without actually buffing them directly. This is purposely designed this way so that Dark Eldar will never have to trade offense with defense.

The last USR is: Soul Harvest (name WIP)

The fantasy: Dark Eldar are unlike any of their Eldar brethen in terms of battlefield tactics. CW Eldar are disciplined and flexible, Corsairs are selfish and aloof, and Dark Eldar are a mix of these traits. The forces of the Dark Eldar desire pain and suffering from their foes above all else, and whatever means to that end is tactically appropriate.

The design: Battle Focus but with a catch: You can run-shoot, or shoot-run, but you have to move closer to the enemy. This plays off the bloodthirsty nature that is Dark Eldar design. It mixes design elements of CW Eldar and Corsairs to make something meaningful for Dark Eldar. This ability plays nicely for bringing your close combat elements closer to the enemy, as well as allowing your Rapid Fire weapons to do the most work. The design purposely benefits both the close-ranged nature of the army, as well as the various close-combat components of the army book.

So there you have it.

It's missing the technical jargon that will form the three into actual rules, but this is where I would start. This would make me pretty happy as a player of the army as it fulfills my criteria in having the glass cannon army transition appropriately from fantasy to table-top. I think it would also all of the current archetypes of the army very happy, since it will benefit Kabal/Haemonculi and mixed army players equally.

The design: Vehicles can shoot one more weapon before or after moving flat out.

Yes.

Please apply at GW's, because we need this, and we need people like you to make it a reality.

It's too strong if it could work even if we're shaken/stunned etc - one extra weapon firing regardless of status is PotMS level (240+ pts in one model) - but if this isn't the case, it seems appropriate on all of our skimmers as long as they're in tip top shape (the trade off is, of course, that they will not be all in one piece for very long)

Even with this rule, neither our vehicles nor our guns are over the top, so I think its perfect.

_________________"Of course you should fight fire with fire! You should fight everything with fire."

CptMetalTrueborn

Posts : 2937Join date : 2015-03-03Location : Ruhr Metropolian Area

Subject: Re: Dreaming about Dark Eldar design Thu Jan 21 2016, 04:32

I really like that we as Eldar gain battle focus too and the snap shot thing. It makes all of us super fast without being too powerful I think. Maybe even give this to the reavers? But only for one weapon in the squad?

lament.configSybarite

Posts : 447Join date : 2015-04-20

Subject: Re: Dreaming about Dark Eldar design Thu Jan 21 2016, 05:05

I like the reworked PfP chart. Mostly because it speeds up 5+ fnp and turn four fearless isn't bad for what's left of squads to hold objectives.

Allowing vehicles to flat out and shoot after or before is SWEET and so fitting for the lore. This needs to be a thing.

The design: Vehicles can shoot one more weapon before or after moving flat out.

Yes.

Please apply at GW's, because we need this, and we need people like you to make it a reality.

It's too strong if it could work even if we're shaken/stunned etc - one extra weapon firing regardless of status is PotMS level (240+ pts in one model) - but if this isn't the case, it seems appropriate on all of our skimmers as long as they're in tip top shape (the trade off is, of course, that they will not be all in one piece for very long)

Even with this rule, neither our vehicles nor our guns are over the top, so I think its perfect.

Yup, that's the design intent. It's not supposed to be PotMS, but it's supposed to give us flexibility in how we apply our shots. It fixes the Ravager naturally, but also allow single lances to be significantly more threatening in the hands of a wily general. Either way, it upholds the DE design for speed and firepower without making it too powerful.

I feel like the dark eldar should be a debuff army that "always" attacks with surprise and speed. How about a raid style ruleset, stealth and such in the earlier turns, or reductions to enemy BS to represent an unprepared force. This ebbs quickly by turn 3 so it takes a tactician to capitalize on the early turns before "the element of surprise" fades and you start dying in droves without the defensive measures. It fit's every fluff depiction perfectly.

It seems pretty clear from GW's current design direction that worrying if something is too powerful is an alien concept to them, so I say go for it!!

Oh! Since I have you here, can you help me write these out in GW-esque rules?

I would like the wording to be as tight as possible.

No problem. I'll give it a go later today.

_________________You have been weighed, you have been measured, and you have been found wanting. In what world could you possibly beat me?

Count AdhemarDark Lord of Granbretan

Posts : 7256Join date : 2012-04-26Location : London

Subject: Re: Dreaming about Dark Eldar design Thu Jan 21 2016, 09:47

Okay, here we go. For PfP and Soul Harvest I've stuck with the general wording from the relevant codex as I don't see any real issues with them. I've just altered them to match the design intent (hopefully).

Power from PainAs Dark Eldar feed on the souls of their foes, they become imbued with supernatural might, eventually turning into killing machinesAt the start of each game turn, look up the game turn number on the Power from Pain table. All models with the Power from Pain special rule gain the special rules listed on the table, in addition to any other special rules they have.

Aerial AssaultThe crew of Dark Eldar vehicles are considered insane even by Dark Eldar standards but they are also the most amazingly skilled pilots and gunners, capable of targeting their foes with incredible accuracy at speeds that other races cannot even comprehend

When moving at Cruising Speed, a vehicle with this special rule can fire one more weapon at its full Ballistic Skill than normally permitted. It may fire a single weapon at full Ballistic Skill, on a turn in which it moves flat out but may not fire any other weapons in the same turn.

Soul HarvestDark Eldar are unlike any of their Eldar brethen in terms of battlefield tactics. Craftoworld Eldar are disciplined and flexible, Corsairs are selfish and aloof, and Dark Eldar are a mix of these traits. The forces of the Dark Eldar desire pain and suffering from their foes above all else, and whatever means to that end is tactically appropriateA unit composed entirely of models with the Soul Harvest special rule can either shoot and then Run, or Run and then shoot, in the same Shooting phase but must end it’s Run move closer to the target of the shooting attack than it was at the start of the Shooting phase. The unit must complete both actions before you move onto the next unit – otherwise the chance to make the second action is forfeit.A model cannot Run if it fired a Heavy weapon during the same Shooting phase unless it has the Relentless special rule. Similarly, a model that has Run cannot then fire a Heavy weapon in the same Shooting phase unless it has the Relentless special rule. Models that cannot Run gain no benefit from the Soul Harvest special rule.

_________________You have been weighed, you have been measured, and you have been found wanting. In what world could you possibly beat me?

Creeping DarknessWych

Posts : 548Join date : 2012-11-21

Subject: Re: Dreaming about Dark Eldar design Thu Jan 21 2016, 10:01

I'd take it

Just for another take on moving fast and still remaining dangerous - what if all Dark Eldar faction units could

This would represent them not just combining break-neck speed and movement, but also their superior reflexes and opportunism.

Mechanically, it would seem inferior to Battle Focus at first, except that it would apply to vehicles and bikes too - but it would also provide the different advantage of better overwatch, better general anti-air, make going to ground less disadvantageous, etc.

I'd presume that the intention would be to run towards an enemy unit for the purposes of assaulting it... but we're not allowed to run and then assault. So, all you're really doing is bringing yourself into range of the enemy counter-attack.

Would it not make sense to add in that we can assault after running? Or, maybe just have that clause on some or all units instead of the run and fire thing?

Count AdhemarDark Lord of Granbretan

Posts : 7256Join date : 2012-04-26Location : London

Subject: Re: Dreaming about Dark Eldar design Thu Jan 21 2016, 14:04

Yeah I can only see Soul Harvest being useful on a few of our units. Mainly I think Talos/Cronos would benefit as I'm often faced with the choice of either running or shooting with them and it would be nice to do both.

_________________You have been weighed, you have been measured, and you have been found wanting. In what world could you possibly beat me?

I'd presume that the intention would be to run towards an enemy unit for the purposes of assaulting it... but we're not allowed to run and then assault. So, all you're really doing is bringing yourself into range of the enemy counter-attack.

Would it not make sense to add in that we can assault after running? Or, maybe just have that clause on some or all units instead of the run and fire thing?

Unless of course, it's no longer counted as a run and treated as extra movement similar to Corsairs?

Hmm. I wanted to increase threat range, but I'm not sure if that would make it too over the top. Imagine that rule on jetbikes!

It seems pretty clear from GW's current design direction that worrying if something is too powerful is an alien concept to them, so I say go for it!!

Oh! Since I have you here, can you help me write these out in GW-esque rules?

I would like the wording to be as tight as possible.

No problem. I'll give it a go later today.

Thank you so much for your assistance

Now that we have actual rules written, what do you guys think? Too powerful? Is it fitting? How does it capture the fantasy of the army from a universal standpoint?

In your mind, if were you to describe Dark Eldar in 3 rules or less, would it be similar to these?

Keep in mind that formations are an afterthought. I've thought about ambush, reserve manipulation, night fighting, outflanking, WWPs, and all that other good stuff, but I think they would be better as "decurion" or as a detachment.

Sure, let's try that. Since I know you're big on Corsairs right now Shredder, do you see any rules conflicts with this?

Nothing obvious. Especially since, unlike Corsairs, we don't need to worry about its usage in the psychic phase. Depending on how you phrase it, it could be used when Overwatching, but since you can only move closer to your enemy I doubt you'd want to anyway.

The only thing of note is that if it isn't run movement than it won't be affected by any run buffs (including Fleet). I don't know if that matters at all (I think fleet is the only one we have anyway), but it's worth mentioning at least.

The one thing I find interesting about people trying to give design suggestions is that they always stumble on what makes the army unique in the first place. I've seen suggestions that wanted to give them more armor, on units and on vehicles, or rules that just outright buffed units (such as giving them T4? haha). It starts to creep into the design territory of other armies and that's a no-fly zone for me.

In short, this is probably what I would do with the rest of the book:

>Bring prices in sync with CWE and Corsairs, with the exception of special, exotic and heavy weapons. Those will be quite plentiful in my revision, especially when you think about where all these pirate lords are getting these weapons in the first place?

>Increased lethality of certain units and generally across the board. Expect to see more Lethal Dose, Instant Death, Rending, and generally more ways to die horrifically on a "6". Yes, D is indeed in, but it will be quite limited as we are still a raiding force.

>Formations and detachments that actually make sense for the Dark Eldar. Expect to see more ways to ambush, deploy, utilize WWPs (not the current, think Corsairs), and Hellions as Obsec..etc.

I'm deliberately keeping things vague as I want this to sink in a bit. At the end of the day, I want to adhere to the DE design principles set by GW, but with a ruleset that more accurately portrays how the army is supposed to be played on the table. While I generally think GW does a pretty good job writing the fantasy and developing the overall vision for the army, they falter on translating this to the actual table.

The one thing I find interesting about people trying to give design suggestions is that they always stumble on what makes the army unique in the first place. I've seen suggestions that wanted to give them more armor, on units and on vehicles, or rules that just outright buffed units (such as giving them T4? haha). It starts to creep into the design territory of other armies and that's a no-fly zone for me.

Well, two points on this:

1) It's all very well to dismiss the suggestions on that thread, but is it any better to just keep an unfluffy mechanic for the sake of it? As was noted in that thread, the current PfP table encourages the exact opposite of what DE are supposed to be. The army should hit hard and fast - not spend most of the game out of play until they're arbitrarily allowed their special rules.

2) It's also easy to say that we shouldn't creep into the design territory of other armies. The problem is that virtually every other army has already crept into our territory. The idea that we're even close to being the fastest army anymore is laughable. What do we have? A couple of fast transports and a single unit of Eldar Jetbikes. That's it. Everything else is either no faster than comparable units in other armies, or else vastly slower.

But, even if we are made the fastest, will it even help? There's only so much board space, and with the increase in both the general range of weapons along with the availability of Ignores Cover, mobility alone is far from enough - you really need offence and/or durability to back it up.

Which brings us to the offensive front. Are we supposed to be glass-hammers, or are we supposed to be glass damp-socks (I always forget)? I'd have thought it would be the former, but our weapons section seems to disagree. The thing is, how much hammer can we really have? Eldar are already saturated with D-weapons, and on vastly more durable platforms than we're likely to get. Not to mention marines having Grav. All in all, it seems we've rather lost what little claim we had to being glass-hammers, too. Actuall, even if we ignore weapon profiles for a moment, why is there so little Preferred Enemy, Twin-Linked, Shred or Master Crafted in our army?

That just leaves defence. On the one hand, yes, we're supposed to be fragile. But, you can only be so fragile before you become useless. Moreover, the increase in power levels of other armies' weapons has effectively made us even more fragile. How much S6 shooting was their in 5th to ignore our FNP? How about now in 7th, when we have the delights of scatterbikes and such?

Also, it's not like we don't have our fair share of tough units - Wracks and Haemonculi are T4 without breaking fluff. Grotesques are T5 and Talos/Cronos are T7. Hell, any unit with combat drugs can be T4 with the right result. At the very least, T4 units hardly require much stretching of the imagination (or fluff).

Now, granted, I'm not sure I'd want us to be T4 (I think our defence should be more about tricks and such). But, I really don't think T4 for a few units or under certain circumstances would be inappropriate/unfluffy either.

LeninadeKabalite Warrior

Posts : 102Join date : 2014-09-23

Subject: Re: Dreaming about Dark Eldar design Thu Jan 21 2016, 21:14

There needs to be something encouraging aggression, especially charging. Rapid fire guns that can only fire at bs when moving 6" in their 12" move transport, and prevent their wielder from charging based on their weapon type, just don't cut it. When you look at the PFP table they gave us it makes even less sense

CptMetalTrueborn

Posts : 2937Join date : 2015-03-03Location : Ruhr Metropolian Area

Subject: Re: Dreaming about Dark Eldar design Thu Jan 21 2016, 21:53

We are the fastest army or do you know another army with only open topped fast transports? And if the enemy is using a bike list: yes that one is faster, but my Warriors are much better against those too.

Of course we get better as the fight progresses. Our fluff tells us that we thrive on slaughter and pain. And that increases during a fight.

We are the fastest army or do you know another army with only open topped fast transports

Orks! Ok, yeah they're not in a good spot at the moment either.. Hmm..

We are still reasonably fast, arguably *the* fastest, but other factions have caught up a great deal. Even comparing ourselves to our 5th edition days, we've slowed down. Aethersails is a classic example where we get less speed (always 6" as opposed to between 5"-9" on average)

For only 6" it should probably be free on our skimmers, or if it gave a 9" or 12" extra flat out, worth 5-10pts.

Its harsh, because a regular Rhino at 35pts (which might be free from a formation) with more durability can flat out too now, for a total of 18" movement. This is an armoured tank for half the price of ours, and we're basically an aluminium platform with jet engines that can only move 6" more unless we pay even more pts.

We are the fastest army or do you know another army with only open topped fast transports?

Does being open topped make vehicles faster somehow? I think I missed that rule.

Although, since you ask, Orks have fast, open-topped transports (and more of them). Their HQs also have the option of bikes. Also Corsairs.

Regardless, that's the thing, isn't it? We have 2 fast transports... and that's it. Oh, and our single biker squad can move a bit faster than some other bikes. That's our claim to being the fastest army in the game. Do you seriously not realise how pathetic that is? - We don't have a single HQ who can move more than 6" per turn. No options for bikes, no options for wings or jump packs, no options for skyboards, not so much as a jet pack. - We don't have a single troop or elite choice that can move more than 6" per turn outside of transports. Eldar get Jetbikes as troops, Corsairs get Jetbikes and Jet Packs (in addition to fast transports). We get... nothing. - Aside from the aforementioned Jetbikes, our FA section has nothing remarkable whatsoever. There's a beast squad that's no faster than Necron Wraiths (whilst being vastly less durable and not hitting nearly as hard), there's some Jump Packs that move no faster than any other jump packs (whilst being more fragile). Same goes for Hellions. And then we get to our fliers. Not only are they no faster than the fliers of other races, they're also vastly less agile - lacking Hover, Agile or any other rule that would make them more manoeuvrable.- Finally we get to our Heavy Support units (all 3 of them). We have 2 Monstrous Creatures that can move all of 6" per turn (despite being modelled as hovering). But that's alright, at least we still have the Ravager. Being the fastest army in the game, it can move at the same speed as a Leman Russ tank and (like the Russ) still fire all its weapons at full BS. Doesn't it make you proud?

Shall we compare this trash to Eldar? Who get Jetbikes as troops, HQs who can take Jetbikes, super Jet Packs and super jump packs, more Jetbikes as Elites, fast transports, Jet Pack units that can move an extra 2d6" in the movement phase, and than another 2d6" each time an enemy shoots them, Jump Pack units that can move 18", and a MC that can move 12" (despite being the size of a 3-story building). And that's before we even get into their special rule that lets them run and shoot in the same turn. Not to mention the plethora of other fast vehicles they get.

Are you seriously telling me that DE are faster than Eldar? Or even Corsairs?

Of course we get better as the fight progresses. Our fluff tells us that we thrive on slaughter and pain. And that increases during a fight.

But that's the point - nothing actually affects the increase. Half the enemy could be dead on turn 1, or both forces could sit peacefully in opposite corners. Either way, PfP progresses by the same amount. Hence, there's no reason to actually get stuck in until PfP has increased a few notches. i.e. there's no reason to do the thing that's supposed to make PfP increase until PfP has increased. Are you seeing the problem yet?