The Lerner Organization is an unmitigated failure on every conceivable level. I read this article and got sick. It's just sickening someone inside the organization still hasn't stepped up, apologized, and started firing people for this. Steelers fans have yet another reason to laugh their asses off at us.

justmebd wrote:The Lerner Organization is an unmitigated failure on every conceivable level. I read this article and got sick. It's just sickening someone inside the organization still hasn't stepped up, apologized, and started firing people for this. Steelers fans have yet another reason to laugh their asses off at us.

This is happening in every NFL stadium. And nearly every sport's stadium in the US. If you think that this isn't happening in Steeler land too then you haven't gone over there and listened to some of the talk about their newer stadium's policies.

If they really weren't doing anything at all then they should complain to the Browns and they should fight this. They should ask to see video of the issue and follow up on it. Since it sounds like they just got caught up in the problem and their friend was the one who had the main problem they should be able to get this rectified pretty quickly. Maybe something happened between this guy and their friend in the first half. Maybe their friend was doing more than just standing up.

Frankly I've been sitting in the upper deck pound for 5 years now on top of occasionally frequenting the pound before that and I've never seen anyone who was a Browns fan get kicked out undeservedly. I don't think the Browns should be following the NFL's lead on restricting people from enjoying the game by standing up but it's the trend. I've only had one a-hole tell me to sit down during a game and we made enough fun of him that by the second half he'd shut up.

But people around me all know each other and have a good relationship with the Tenable guy who 'guards' our section.

These teams stadium atmosphere's are as sterile as can be. The NFL, as you middle-aged fucksticks remember it, is deader than dead. What you have now is a marketing monstrocity that doesn't give two shits about the product on the field and cares even less about old school fans having a good experience. This is about Pam and Tom Whitepeople can bring seven year old Johnny to 1-3 games a year and get riled up enough that they join six fantasy leagues and buy Sunday ticket, with Johnny Whiteperson doing the same once he reaches age ten.

I have no issue (and haven't since they were really young) taking any or all of my three daughters to an Indians game. There are annoyances and the occasional loudmouth, for sure, but by and large it's a worry-free, hassle-free day/night at the game.

I didn't and wouldn't take my young kids to a Browns game because there are way too many drunken fuck-knuckles to battle through every Sunday. Not passing judgment on them but I don't need to fight my way out of the place with kids on my arm.

The NFL sees this and is trying to make sure they don't lose a generation or two of fans to a bunch of assholes with nothing better to do than swill massive amounts of alcohol before and during the game.

If you're an asshole you stand a much better chance of getting kicked out of the place. If you're a drunken asshole the percentage goes up.

If you don't like that either stay the fuck home or be less of a drunken asshole.

Been going there for decades. Have never seen anyone who didn't deserve it get kicked out and have seen far more drunken assholes relocated or allowed to stay than thrown out.

I have no issue (and haven't since they were really young) taking any or all of my three daughters to an Indians game. There are annoyances and the occasional loudmouth, for sure, but by and large it's a worry-free, hassle-free day/night at the game.

I didn't and wouldn't take my young kids to a Browns game because there are way too many drunken fuck-knuckles to battle through every Sunday. Not passing judgment on them but I don't need to fight my way out of the place with kids on my arm.

The NFL sees this and is trying to make sure they don't lose a generation or two of fans to a bunch of assholes with nothing better to do than swill massive amounts of alcohol before and during the game.

If you're an asshole you stand a much better chance of getting kicked out of the place. If you're a drunken asshole the percentage goes up.

If you don't like that either stay the fuck home or be less of a drunken asshole.

Been going there for decades. Have never seen anyone who didn't deserve it get kicked out and have seen far more drunken assholes relocated or allowed to stay than thrown out.

Well the story linked in the OP certainly doesn't sound like a drunk fan to me.

YMMV, but it shouldn't.

Criminals in this town used to believe in things...honor, respect."I heard your dog is sick, so bought you this shovel"

I have no issue (and haven't since they were really young) taking any or all of my three daughters to an Indians game. There are annoyances and the occasional loudmouth, for sure, but by and large it's a worry-free, hassle-free day/night at the game.

I didn't and wouldn't take my young kids to a Browns game because there are way too many drunken fuck-knuckles to battle through every Sunday. Not passing judgment on them but I don't need to fight my way out of the place with kids on my arm.

The NFL sees this and is trying to make sure they don't lose a generation or two of fans to a bunch of assholes with nothing better to do than swill massive amounts of alcohol before and during the game.

If you're an asshole you stand a much better chance of getting kicked out of the place. If you're a drunken asshole the percentage goes up.

If you don't like that either stay the fuck home or be less of a drunken asshole.

Been going there for decades. Have never seen anyone who didn't deserve it get kicked out and have seen far more drunken assholes relocated or allowed to stay than thrown out.

Well the story linked in the OP certainly doesn't sound like a drunk fan to me.

YMMV, but it shouldn't.

Exactly. These people weren't drunk or acting like idiots, if the original story is accurate, and I'm just assuming it is until proven otherwise. Getting thrown out for standing up and cheering a TD is complete BS. If someone standing up and cheering in front of you gets you angry, than you are the one who should not be attending games.

The stadium staff completely blew it here and no one had the intelligence to say "OK, maybe we're misinterpreting the rules here."

I have no issue (and haven't since they were really young) taking any or all of my three daughters to an Indians game. There are annoyances and the occasional loudmouth, for sure, but by and large it's a worry-free, hassle-free day/night at the game.

I didn't and wouldn't take my young kids to a Browns game because there are way too many drunken fuck-knuckles to battle through every Sunday. Not passing judgment on them but I don't need to fight my way out of the place with kids on my arm.

The NFL sees this and is trying to make sure they don't lose a generation or two of fans to a bunch of assholes with nothing better to do than swill massive amounts of alcohol before and during the game.

If you're an asshole you stand a much better chance of getting kicked out of the place. If you're a drunken asshole the percentage goes up.

If you don't like that either stay the fuck home or be less of a drunken asshole.

Been going there for decades. Have never seen anyone who didn't deserve it get kicked out and have seen far more drunken assholes relocated or allowed to stay than thrown out.

Well the story linked in the OP certainly doesn't sound like a drunk fan to me.

YMMV, but it shouldn't.

Just telling you as a proud (not really) denizen of sec 120, row 16 for the last ten years, my experience is no one who is standing and cheering has ever been thrown out unless they were drunken assholes who were deserving of it for some other reason.

I usually go to 2-3 games a year, and sit in different sections. I had the same thing happen when I was sitting in my rabbi's upper dog pound seats a few years back....I stood up for a touchdown and an enormous woman behind me threw a fit and yelled at us to sit down. (Claiming to be handicapped) I started to tell her something, and the rabbi signaled me to just sit down and let it go......and sure enough, without me saying a word, security came down and politely asked us not to stand.

I've had no other problems in the 4-5 seats i've sat in for the last two years. (usually behind one of the endzones)

I think that Joe casual fan IS capable of being tossed for not too much reason, and while i agree with eye/rk that it's the norm around the country, the warning should be a lot more direct ("If you do this again, we're going to have to ask you to leave") or if the fans arent drunk, a relocation helps all parties.

This story makes my blood boil.

Check me out at Dawgsbynature, where I write stuff, or @twitter as Josh Finney.

If the team was winning this wouldn't be an issue, nor would anyone care.

As it stands, it shows the Browns just continue to show incompetence from the team pres. to down below.

Is this much security really needed though? I realize that in today's sports world it's all about guaranteeing that all involved have a good time, but when you're having ushers going SS-like with security, than it's a bit ridiculous.

It's just not a good environment for a game. In between the losing and the ushers who really are not trained that well for their job (trust me, I've met ushers for other franchises, and they generally know how to handle things without coming as a brownshirt mallcop), You got to wonder when people are just going to say "Fuck it", and we wind up with tarps all around the stadium.

also re: the ushers. I think it's time the Browns handle it in-house, and not outsource the job to an outside company. That right there is idiotic to the ninth degreee.

Swerb wrote:Go start a blog if you want to tell the world your incomprehendible ramblings.

Cerebral_DownTime wrote:I have a big arm and can throw the ball pretty damn far...... maybe even over those moutains. The Browns should sign me, i'll let you all in locker room to drink beer. Then we can all go out the parking lot to watch me do motorcycle stunts.

These teams stadium atmosphere's are as sterile as can be. The NFL, as you middle-aged fucksticks remember it, is deader than dead. What you have now is a marketing monstrocity that doesn't give two shits about the product on the field and cares even less about old school fans having a good experience. This is about Pam and Tom Whitepeople can bring seven year old Johnny to 1-3 games a year and get riled up enough that they join six fantasy leagues and buy Sunday ticket, with Johnny Whiteperson doing the same once he reaches age ten.

Did you mean to play the race card, or did it just come out wrong?

Look, I think Goodell is an elitist cunt, but I am fairly certain that his target demographic is not limited to affluent white people from the burbs.

I don't need to be patient, they're going to be shit forever. - CDT, discussing my favorite NFL team

Triple-S wrote:also re: the ushers. I think it's time the Browns handle it in-house, and not outsource the job to an outside company. That right there is idiotic to the ninth degreee.

They're contractors. It's far cheaper and you source it to a company with experience in security and not to a football team that barely knows football, much less security.

Tenable is a solid group that provides security in big venues other than Browns Stadium and there's also then a separation between the contractor's method of dealing with fans and the team's. Call it plausible deniability.

Note: I am in no way saying that the NFL is racist or pushing back against any culture. I'm just saying that the biggest core advertising sector in this country, the middle-class white family is also the core the NFL is going to want to have the most enjoyable experience at its bullshit games.

e0y2e3 wrote:Note: I am in no way saying that the NFL is racist or pushing back against any culture. I'm just saying that the biggest core advertising sector in this country, the middle-class white family is also the core the NFL is going to want to have the most enjoyable experience at its bullshit games.

What the NFL (or any business, for that matter) wants the most are males ages 18-34, regardless of race or ethnicity. The NFL just happens to have more African American followers that any other sport.

You are absolutely correct in that NFL demographics closely mirror the general population.

Last edited by mattvan1 on Wed Aug 29, 2012 3:13 pm, edited 1 time in total.

I don't need to be patient, they're going to be shit forever. - CDT, discussing my favorite NFL team

e0y2e3 wrote:When you have more followers than any other sport that isn't a hard data point to reach. Per Capita I would easily bet it is behind the NBA.

And game attendance doesn't = followers.

You're just not thinking it through - of course the NFL WANTS affluent whites as a core demo, but they are easy to get. For the reasons you mentioned above. What the league also wants and works hard to get - are the less affluent and more racially diverse demo - because that group will have less $$ to spend and is probably not going to be able to afford to invest/follow/buy gear for multiple teams from multiple sports. So the NFL needs to keep the folks with $$ comfy, but at the same time is competing with the NBA to grab the hearts and minds of a more diverse cross section. They want their "fans" to reflect the racial make up of the product on the field.

No way does the NFL want to narrow is brand appeal to soccer moms from Gates Mills. It's just not good business sense.

Waaaay OT, apologies. And yes, the game day experience at CBS is like a prostate exam.

I don't need to be patient, they're going to be shit forever. - CDT, discussing my favorite NFL team

Triple-S wrote:also re: the ushers. I think it's time the Browns handle it in-house, and not outsource the job to an outside company. That right there is idiotic to the ninth degreee.

They're contractors. It's far cheaper and you source it to a company with experience in security and not to a football team that barely knows football, much less security.

Tenable is a solid group that provides security in big venues other than Browns Stadium and there's also then a separation between the contractor's method of dealing with fans and the team's. Call it plausible deniability.

It goes back to how hands off lerner was.

Delegating power is not always best in certain situations. I wouldn't doubt for a second that if this was in house those in charge of ushering and security would have a better handle for such a thing.

If I were them, I'd go the in-house route. Expensive? Yes. But if you're desperately trying to present yourself as a good entertainment option within the area, in my opinion it's well worth it.

Swerb wrote:Go start a blog if you want to tell the world your incomprehendible ramblings.

Cerebral_DownTime wrote:I have a big arm and can throw the ball pretty damn far...... maybe even over those moutains. The Browns should sign me, i'll let you all in locker room to drink beer. Then we can all go out the parking lot to watch me do motorcycle stunts.

But its...its easy ... to, to talk about... It's easy to sum it up when you're just talking about standing. We're sitting in here, and I'm supposed to be the fan, and we in here talking about standing. I mean, listen, we're talking about standing, not a drunk, not a drunk, not a drunk, we talking about standing. Not a drunk. Not, not ... Not a drunk that I go out there and die for and cheer every game like it's my last. Not a drunk, but we're talking about standing, man. I mean, how silly is that? ...

And we talking about standing. I know I supposed to be there. I know I'm supposed to lead by example... I know that... And i'm not.. I'm not shoving it aside, you know, like it don't mean anything. I know it's important, I do. I honestly do...

But we're talking about standing man. What are we talking about? Standing? We're talking about standing, man. (laughter from the media crowd) We're talking about standing. We're talking about standing. We aint talking about the drunks.(more laughter) We're talking about standing, man. When you come to the arena, and you see me cheer, you see me cheer don't you? You've seen me give everything I've got, right? But we're talking about standing right now. We talking about st...

Tenable is hired by the Browns and TOLD what Browns policy to enforce. Most of the folks working Tenable are ok and some are $8/hr wannabees. The problem is they are throwing babies out with the bath waters. There is now an anonymous "RAT" telephone number you can call and whine about the fan in front of you. The cops are paid 4X what the Tenable folk are paid and they step in ONLY when absolutely necessary (Meaning someone is getting tossed or arrested).

There was a huge push over the last couple of years to weed out the drunks and the accompanying issues. I guess standing up and cheering for a shit-product is akin to being shit-faced.........

..........................and yes, I'm back.. with new batteries in my Taser!

e0y2e3 wrote:When you have more followers than any other sport that isn't a hard data point to reach. Per Capita I would easily bet it is behind the NBA.

And game attendance doesn't = followers.

You're just not thinking it through - of course the NFL WANTS affluent whites as a core demo, but they are easy to get. For the reasons you mentioned above. What the league also wants and works hard to get - are the less affluent and more racially diverse demo - because that group will have less $$ to spend and is probably not going to be able to afford to invest/follow/buy gear for multiple teams from multiple sports. So the NFL needs to keep the folks with $$ comfy, but at the same time is competing with the NBA to grab the hearts and minds of a more diverse cross section. They want their "fans" to reflect the racial make up of the product on the field.

No way does the NFL want to narrow is brand appeal to soccer moms from Gates Mills. It's just not good business sense.

Waaaay OT, apologies. And yes, the game day experience at CBS is like a prostate exam.

I think you are missing my initial point that they are cleaning up there stadiums to suck more of their core into them. I agree fully with everything you say here (although they will never be as good as the NBA at targeting a single demo and getting them, as the NBA has done with Gen Y and the foreign markets). The NFL is a fat pig and they want their stadiums to house those that keep them fat, all the while they want to build up the "other" demos as fanbases.

e0y2e3 wrote:When you have more followers than any other sport that isn't a hard data point to reach. Per Capita I would easily bet it is behind the NBA.

And game attendance doesn't = followers.

You're just not thinking it through - of course the NFL WANTS affluent whites as a core demo, but they are easy to get. For the reasons you mentioned above. What the league also wants and works hard to get - are the less affluent and more racially diverse demo - because that group will have less $$ to spend and is probably not going to be able to afford to invest/follow/buy gear for multiple teams from multiple sports. So the NFL needs to keep the folks with $$ comfy, but at the same time is competing with the NBA to grab the hearts and minds of a more diverse cross section. They want their "fans" to reflect the racial make up of the product on the field.

No way does the NFL want to narrow is brand appeal to soccer moms from Gates Mills. It's just not good business sense.

Waaaay OT, apologies. And yes, the game day experience at CBS is like a prostate exam.

I think you are missing my initial point that they are cleaning up there stadiums to suck more of their core into them. I agree fully with everything you say here (although they will never be as good as the NBA at targeting a single demo and getting them, as the NBA has done with Gen Y and the foreign markets). The NFL is a fat pig and they want their stadiums to house those that keep them fat, all the while they want to build up the "other" demos as fanbases.

Got it. And agree.

I don't need to be patient, they're going to be shit forever. - CDT, discussing my favorite NFL team

Another thing to think about.... the NFL is the ONLY league that refuses to get into the digital age. Their digital marketing/social media/streaming market is non-existent. If you aren't going to invest in that "free" type of access you are not trying to expand to the "youth" of this country and are instead just relying on the archival existence of ESPN/ABC/NBC/CBS/FOX and your quickly deteriorating sport's violent nature to carry you into the future. That.... that.... is a gamble.

This episode is one component, but it's gonna be interesting the next 5-10 years to see what the NFL does about its attendance issues. The huge TV revenue has turned ticket sales into a side dish, but it's becoming less and less worth it to attend a game in person (and even though I love the sport, Lee has a point that the product gets more and more homogenous/mediocre every year). But between how good the HDTV experience is, how much the secondary market has helped drop ticket prices, and how much money/time/hassle you save by watching at home, they're going to have to shake things up to keep ticket revenue close to what it is now. Football was arguably better to watch on TV even before this kind of stuff came about.

"Well then I guess there's only one thing left to do...win the whole, f***in', thing."- Jake Taylor

e0y2e3 wrote:Another thing to think about.... the NFL is the ONLY league that refuses to get into the digital age. Their digital marketing/social media/streaming market is non-existent. If you aren't going to invest in that "free" type of access you are not trying to expand to the "youth" of this country and are instead just relying on the archival existence of ESPN/ABC/NBC/CBS/FOX and your quickly deteriorating sport's violent nature to carry you into the future. That.... that.... is a gamble.

I actually agree with this.

While something like the Indy Car Series is struggling financially, there is no question that I have a fairly easy access to watch full races on their youtube channel within a week, along with radio broadcasts on ITunes

The NBA and NHL both are very much on the good side of things with that.

Swerb wrote:Go start a blog if you want to tell the world your incomprehendible ramblings.

Cerebral_DownTime wrote:I have a big arm and can throw the ball pretty damn far...... maybe even over those moutains. The Browns should sign me, i'll let you all in locker room to drink beer. Then we can all go out the parking lot to watch me do motorcycle stunts.

While something like the Indy Car Series is struggling financially, there is no question that I have a fairly easy access to watch full races on their youtube channel within a week, along with radio broadcasts on ITunes

The NBA and NHL both are very much on the good side of things with that.

And even in the racing world there are series like Grand Am that acknowledge attending events is not always as enjoyable as watching them on TV. When a track is 2 miles long and you can only sit in one corner at a time you're going to miss a lot.

So they open up the paddock area and let Joe Q. Fan walk right up to the trailers and watch over the shoulder of people actually working on the cars before, during, and after the races. That creates memories of experiences that go a long way to building viewer loyalty. They go so far that when they are grouped with NASCAR or Indy events on the same weekend people GA fans don't bother going because they're so restrictive it's not like a 'Grand Am' experience.

At the same time they encourage racing teams to broadcast on Twitter and work at continuously expanding their TV coverage of all the classes in the series.

I think eventually the NFL will need to bow to reality in the next few years and start lowering ticket prices, increasing the value of concessions through better quality of service/food/drink or lower prices, and eventually support for other fan experiences. I don't think they need to improve the electronic media during games (although pulling advertisements that take up 1/3 of the replay board would be a nice touch) and their efforts at rentable hand held devices in the stadiums are going to flop.

The main reason they'll start bowing to reality is a simple one. They're going to need more people to justify more new stadiums. They had a boom in the late 90's through the 2000's but those stadiums are already starting to need work and will need to start being upgraded or replaced later this decade.

There's no way they're getting money from places like Cleveland that are strapped and from fanbases who won't turn out to vote for it because they're sick of paying for it.

Eventually I think the NFL will have to change their stadium model too and get back to smaller stadiums likely with roofs. Once you remove the threat of cold, wet weather, which plays havok with electronics, you can do a lot more with the stadiums to modernize for the digital age. I would not be shocked if 15 years from now NFL teams are done building open-air stadiums and are instead building 40-50k coliseums that they can split with NBA/NHL teams.

When I speak in terms of media, I am referring to things like Twitter and Youtube, which the NBA has deployed as ridiculously succesfuly marketing tools.

The NFL spends a ridiculous amount of time and money ripping videos of its events off of Youtube, whereas the NBA has embraced Youtube and isntead of putting itself in a position where it has to pay a team of jackasses to chase around people posting videos the NBA posts all of their own stuff, for free and for anyone to use.

When it comes to the digital age the NFL is about as far behind the pack as it could possible be.

Even something as simple as MLB.TV of League Pass Broadband, allows for users to pay a discounted rate and get the season package on streaminger, veruss the NFL which is still married to Direct TV (although Direct TV now sells that PS3 package for like $500).

rk wrote:Eventually I think the NFL will have to change their stadium model too and get back to smaller stadiums likely with roofs. Once you remove the threat of cold, wet weather, which plays havok with electronics, you can do a lot more with the stadiums to modernize for the digital age. I would not be shocked if 15 years from now NFL teams are done building open-air stadiums and are instead building 40-50k coliseums that they can split with NBA/NHL teams.

Awesome. Then I can get on to ignoring the NFL the way I ignore the NBA/NHL.

The fact that the sterile, soul-less CBS actually has a section named "The Dawg Pound" is as nauseating as it is insulting. The original "pound" was not formed in the mind of some lame ass corporate marketing schmuck.

That whole grass roots passionate drunken inappropriate behavior way outside of normative social interaction died when the team left. And the whole "Dawg" persona should have died after Dixon and Minnifield were gone.

The fact that the business side of this team still insists on clinging to any shred of past glory, no matter how marginal it was 25 years ago, is a sad and pathetic commentary on the current situation.

I don't need to be patient, they're going to be shit forever. - CDT, discussing my favorite NFL team

The fact that the sterile, soul-less CBS actually has a section named "The Dawg Pound" is as nauseating as it is insulting. The original "pound" was not formed in the mind of some lame ass corporate marketing schmuck.

That whole grass roots passionate drunken inappropriate behavior way outside of normative social interaction died when the team left. And the whole "Dawg" persona should have died after Dixon and Minnifield were gone.

The fact that the business side of this team still insists on clinging to any shred of past glory, no matter how marginal it was 25 years ago, is a sad and pathetic commentary on the current situation.

Don't forget the weekly playing of Hang on Sloopy between the third and fourth quarter. Gives people something to cheer about before they head to the exits down 20 points.

Song should be banned from CBS because the team isn't worthy of having it played there.

The fact that the sterile, soul-less CBS actually has a section named "The Dawg Pound" is as nauseating as it is insulting. The original "pound" was not formed in the mind of some lame ass corporate marketing schmuck.

That whole grass roots passionate drunken inappropriate behavior way outside of normative social interaction died when the team left. And the whole "Dawg" persona should have died after Dixon and Minnifield were gone.

The fact that the business side of this team still insists on clinging to any shred of past glory, no matter how marginal it was 25 years ago, is a sad and pathetic commentary on the current situation.

Agree. You don't have a bunch of fat white guys in Washington running around calling themselves The Hogs anymore either. Because that would be stupid.

There is no more Dawgpound. And that's OK. Just stop. Wait for the next thing. And, when it happens (whatever it may be) it'll happen naturally.

peeker643 wrote:Don't forget the weekly playing of Hang on Sloopy between the third and fourth quarter. Gives people something to cheer about before they head to the exits down 20 points.

Song should be banned from CBS because the team isn't worthy of having it played there.

Why are we even playing that song?

We're not Ohio State. It's not like the majority of the fans in the crowd are Ohio State grads either, I can guarantee that Kent, OU, and Akron would vastly outnumber that total.

Not to go tymaster, but I always felt that the recent strain on the ohio state support in the area is pretty much indirectly tied to the amount of failure the Browns have probably shown in the past 20 or so years.

Don't get me wrong here, I love the buckeyes, and cheer for them on saturdays, just it does get old.

Swerb wrote:Go start a blog if you want to tell the world your incomprehendible ramblings.

Cerebral_DownTime wrote:I have a big arm and can throw the ball pretty damn far...... maybe even over those moutains. The Browns should sign me, i'll let you all in locker room to drink beer. Then we can all go out the parking lot to watch me do motorcycle stunts.

Remember when going to a Browns game used to be something you couldn't wait for? Remember getting up early on a Saturday in the summer the day tickets went on sale, thrilled to get whatever mediocre seats you could? Remember the excitement you'd feel on a Monday knowing you had tickets next Sunday, and just wanting the week to hurry up and be over?

Now I turn down free tickets. The stadium is no fun anymore. I'd rather watch it at a bar with hard core fans.

I've never been thrown out of the stadium for standing and cheering too loud. But I was asked one time last year by a snarky hipster 3 rows up to sit down. When I didn't comply he announced to everyone he was going to have me thrown out. The thugs never game, but watching the 50 year old men in that section stay glued to their seats, afraid to cheer the few good things that happened in the game, and glance at me nervously... that was just too much.

I don't know how many people are getting thrown out for standing, but EVERYONE in that stadium has it in the back of their head. Its just no fun being in there anymore. And hardly worth the price of the ticket and the cost of food and beer.

Commodore Perry wrote:Remember when going to a Browns game used to be something you couldn't wait for? Remember getting up early on a Saturday in the summer the day tickets went on sale, thrilled to get whatever mediocre seats you could? Remember the excitement you'd feel on a Monday knowing you had tickets next Sunday, and just wanting the week to hurry up and be over?

And grab the sports page to see what Hal Lebovitz had to say after taking the pulse of the team during the week. What was the vibe going into the game, what the bulletin board material was, etc.

The fact that the sterile, soul-less CBS actually has a section named "The Dawg Pound" is as nauseating as it is insulting. The original "pound" was not formed in the mind of some lame ass corporate marketing schmuck.

That whole grass roots passionate drunken inappropriate behavior way outside of normative social interaction died when the team left. And the whole "Dawg" persona should have died after Dixon and Minnifield were gone.

The fact that the business side of this team still insists on clinging to any shred of past glory, no matter how marginal it was 25 years ago, is a sad and pathetic commentary on the current situation.

AMEN. It's been played. People are there mostly to be seen. Get a new identity.