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There is no way of knowing how well police training in communicating with the mentally ill is actually working, an Ontario Police College instructor testified Thursday.

Ron Hoffman, who trains new recruits on mental health issues, spoke at a coroner’s inquest into the fatal police shootings of three people suffering from psychological disorders.

“There are not a lot of studies … on determining how much transfers from the classroom to the street. We don’t know,” he testified. “We can say, ‘Add more training.’ Sure, training’s good, but I can’t tell you whether or not it’s ultimately going to have an effect on changing behaviour in the field.”

Sylvia Klibingaitis, 52, Michael Eligon, 29, and Reyal Jardine-Douglas, 25, all had mental health issues and were in crisis. All three were carrying sharp objects — scissors or knives — when they were shot and killed by Toronto police officers.

Peter Rosenthal, lawyer for the Eligon family, suggested that officers who fail to follow this training in the field should be disciplined, but Hoffman disagreed.

“There’s a myriad of reasons why that person didn’t follow the training we provided, including … their personal experiences in the past, the things that shape their perception,” he said. “There’s too many variables.”

The inquest has heard that when someone is advancing with a sharp weapon, their mental state is not considered. In use-of-force training, officers are taught to yell a command such as “Drop the knife!” and draw their firearm — regardless of the person’s psychological condition.

Rosenthal said it appeared the use-of-force training was not well-integrated with the mental health training.

“These other trainers (are telling new recruits) to say, ‘Drop the knife! Drop the knife! Drop the knife! Police! Don’t shoot!’ Then you come along and say, ‘Try and talk softly to them.’”

Hoffman replied that his tactics were meant to be used before a situation escalates to a point where an officer or a member of the public faces an imminent threat — after that, the use-of-force training kicks in.

Gary Clewley, lawyer for two of the police officers who fired the fatal shots, said in a heated speech that no amount of training can prepare officers for some scenarios.

“Their adrenaline is going and they’re afraid. Anything wrong with that? Do you have to turn in the badge because you admit that you’re afraid that someone’s going to stab you to death?” he asked.

The goal of training is to give officers a broad range of skills and hope they are able to use them when chaotic situations are unfolding very quickly, Clewley said.

“All you can do is give them the best you can, and hope that providence and the training takes over.”

Hoffman, who holds a PhD in health studies and has been with the college since 1991, said he wants to see police training for mental health issues standardized across the country, rather than simply adding more training.

Officers are also required to complete an eight-hour requalification course every year, of which mental health training is a part.

Asked by Anita Wasowicz, Sylvia Klibingaitis’s sister, whether he would support gathering data on how the training was working in the field, Hoffman said yes.

“I think it’s a great idea. It just hasn’t been emphasized,” he said, adding that very few professions test the efficacy of their training after the fact.

Wasowicz spoke softly and repeated twice that she and her two sisters were at the inquest speaking on behalf of their deceased sister, Sylvia. “This is a big topic for all of us,” she said.

Klibingaitis died on Oct. 7, 2011, after calling 911 and telling police she was going to kill her mother. One of the responding officers ordered her to drop the knife, before firing his gun and killing her outside her North York home.

Eligon was killed on Feb. 3, 2012 after escaping from Toronto East General Hospital and wandering in a residential neighbourhood carrying two pairs of scissors.

Jardine-Douglas died on Aug. 29, 2010, after he pulled a knife on a TTC bus.

Wasowicz suggested that police services train “dual officers” — people equally knowledgeable in mental health issues and in police work — to be first responders to calls involving mentally disturbed people.

“I just can’t stress enough how this is a huge, shocking piece of information for me,” she said.

The inquest continues Friday with an expert witness on Mobile Crisis Intervention Teams, which consist of a psychiatric nurse and a police officer, and are meant to respond to 911 calls involving a mental health crisis.

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