Originally posted by GwionX
I couldn't disagree more, and just to prove you wrong I am going to go buy a HK Assault rifle tommorrow,maybe a Wather p99-- put it on my credit
card, then I will buy a 5 acre tract of land (in any state I decide) then I will book a flight to Thailand...or perhaps I will drive to Cabo San
Lucas, or Seattle, while I am in Seattle I will go downtown and start yelling BARNEY IS KING! DOWN WITH 9/11 TRUTH!!! I won't even worry about being
arrested AT_ALL..

So buying weapons or land constitutes freedom to you?

How about this: you might go to D.C. with a digital camera and take a few pictures of the White House and promptly get stopped by secret service men
and brought in for questioning. Or try yelling "IMPEACH BUSH! LONG LIVE 9/11 TRUTH!" ... and get your picture taken by Secret Service (yes S.S.) and
be flagged as a terrorist. Then try to fly to Thailand and see what the computer at customs says. And while you are muttering futile protests you will
be taken to a little room by Homeland Security officers and be questioned about your activities and have your background checked for about two hours
before you will be released, thus having missed your flight. By that time you realise you are trapped in the U.S., because when you do leave, you are
sure you will never be let back in again, being flagged a terrorist and all. Or you might just be a college professor teaching about 9/11 and find
youself labelled a terrorist.

Yes, you are truly free in what you buy and do and where you may travel to. As long as it is in line with the current administration.

I would like to say that I would have posted my thoughts in this thread, but now feel it has degenerated beyond being a good discussion. I would point
out exactly why I feel this way, but I don't want it to sound like a personal attack.

Sorry you feel that way, but I keep watching the same people derail treads over and over and over again it just makes me want to stop posting all
together. The topic was "How can people be so brainwashed". Good question, hopefully we can agree on an answer.

Originally posted by Truth4hire
Yes, you are truly free in what you buy and do and where you may travel to. As long as it is in line with the current administration.

What makes you think I am inline with the current Admin? Mr Bond.

You need to stop self-engrandizing-- and quit being so dang skiddish.

Have you ever seen the 1976 Scorsese/De Niro classic--Taxi-Driver? I like the scene where Travis Bickle gets questioned by Senator
Palintine's security. Why? because he was a creepy nutbag..that's why. It had nothing to do with political views.

Originally posted by GwionX
I like the scene where Travis Bickle gets questioned by Senator Palintine's security. Why? because he was a creepy nutbag..that's why. It had
nothing to do with political views.

Almost. The problem is that today, in the year 2007 individuals are being labelled as terrorist because they speak their mind. That is fascism, pure
and simple.

Tomorrow they may decide that you are the creepy nutbag just because they say so. Maybe because you are an ATS member, who knows?
Can you not see this danger?

That quote of mine you flash around like a kryptonic debunkerbadge is IMO accurate of the 9/11 commision report. What? You cannot compute that I could
have a beef with the competency of our federal system, yet still believe that this 9/11 conspiracy theory is just baseless hogwash?

That has been my point the ENTIRE TIME I have been on ATS.

"That the current Administration and the incompetent buerocratic system our government has in place could not pull off 9/11 without screwing it up
royally in the first place." I have maintained that stance the entire time I have been posting on this site. Why don't you quote some of those
posts?

Here I will even give you one:

"No, the US Federal Government, specifically, the overblown Bureaucratic system before 9/11 was simply riddled with incompetence and complacency."

The comment about buying a gun, buying a piece of land, going around the country to protest only illustrates how not free we really are. If freedom
equals being able to afford to do anything you want, then i guess you are free. But to most Americans, working 40+ hours a week just pays the bills
for everyday living and might afford them a vacation every 2-3 years for maybe a week. I translate what you said as: Anyone can be free as long as
they can afford it. Most American aren't free. Most American need their jobs. They can't decide they need a break from work and take 6 months off.
If they do that, they lose all they have been able obtain up to this point. Yeah that sounds like freedom. When payday comes I bet they just rejoice
when 20% percent of their money goes directly to the Federal Reserve. Yeah that's Freedom. I know I love looking at my check right next to the
outrageous taxes is the healthcare deductions. Yeah that's freedom. I didnt agree with invading Iraq, but I'm paying as much as the people who did
agree. Freedom. On top of all the taxes that come directly from our paycheck, we must pay taxes for the small piece of land made available to us to
purchase. If you decide to purchase the land, you will be taxed on the purchase. You will be taxed to continue to live on it and you will be taxed if
want to sell. If you want to enter into this agreement, the bank now controls you for the next 30 years. So you have obligated yourself to a job for
the next 30 years. Then there is the automobile you will need to get to work. Another 3,4,5 years debt to the bank, but it gets better. While you have
the car you will be forced to buy gas, insurance, any repairs that the car will need, pay for a driver's liscence, pay yearly tag renewal fees, some
people pay for an E-Check, pay for the law enforcement to monitor the drivers, pay for any citations everyone gets, all this so you can drive on the
roads that you paid for. FREEDOM.

Almost. The problem is that today, in the year 2007 individuals are being labelled as terrorist because they speak their mind. That is fascism, pure
and simple.

Tomorrow they may decide that you are the creepy nutbag just because they say so. Maybe because you are an ATS member, who knows?
Can you not see this danger?

I mean, c´mon.

Hell, Reptilian Monsters from the planet Niberu could invade the earth and enslave us all, as well....right?

Besides, Have you not seen the footage of Alex Jones and his heard of merry man-childs bullhorning the crap out of Ground Zero? Baselessly accusing
people of murder, and standing on the graves of fallen Americans while they tell the living that they are ignorant, and haven't yet found their way
to 'enlightenment." (I bet it feels pretty cool to be one of the few people in the world savvy enough to be "enlightened" --or it's just
delusions of grandeur)

Anyway --none of theose people were arrested for accusing the government of MURDER.. What makes you think my trip to Bangkok would be a problem? ( I
know the answer--It wouldn't be!)

Originally posted by BPI
The comment about buying a gun, buying a piece of land, going around the country to protest only illustrates how not free we really are. If freedom
equals being able to afford to do anything you want, then i guess you are free. But to most Americans, working 40+ hours a week just pays the bills
for everyday living and might afford them a vacation every 2-3 years for maybe a week. I translate what you said as: Anyone can be free as long as
they can afford it. Most American aren't free. Most American need their jobs. They can't decide they need a break from work and take 6 months off.
If they do that, they lose all they have been able obtain up to this point. Yeah that sounds like freedom. When payday comes I bet they just rejoice
when 20% percent of their money goes directly to the Federal Reserve. Yeah that's Freedom. I know I love looking at my check right next to the
outrageous taxes is the healthcare deductions. Yeah that's freedom. I didnt agree with invading Iraq, but I'm paying as much as the people who did
agree. Freedom. On top of all the taxes that come directly from our paycheck, we must pay taxes for the small piece of land made available to us to
purchase. If you decide to purchase the land, you will be taxed on the purchase. You will be taxed to continue to live on it and you will be taxed if
want to sell. If you want to enter into this agreement, the bank now controls you for the next 30 years. So you have obligated yourself to a job for
the next 30 years. Then there is the automobile you will need to get to work. Another 3,4,5 years debt to the bank, but it gets better. While you have
the car you will be forced to buy gas, insurance, any repairs that the car will need, pay for a driver's liscence, pay yearly tag renewal fees, some
people pay for an E-Check, pay for the law enforcement to monitor the drivers, pay for any citations everyone gets, all this so you can drive on the
roads that you paid for. FREEDOM.

Yeah, freedom does exist in America, but can you afford it?

You have voted BPI for the Way Above Top Secret award. You have two more votes this month.

You said it perfectly. People are not free, they even don't have the time to recognize it. The illusion of freedom is well kept and the society
reinforces it through our natural need to conform. I have some hope though. More and more people who I am close with seem to have independently got to
the similar conclusion of how actually unfree we are. And I am talking about very different people who have no particular interest in conspiracies at
all.

The problem with 'waking up"is the following realization of how little (if anything) you can do to make a difference. The motivation to continue
your daily activities is low, but life goes on..

Could it be that when they turn to popular alternative news, they get double messages that subliminally insinuate more of the same, or at least
reinforce the learned helplessness and rationalize the might is right philosophy underlying fascism.

Fascism is attractive to people living with learned helplessness and little tolerance for lack of resolution, it offers decisive certainties; as well
someone to do your thinking for you.

Perhaps the biblical prophesies predict so few elect not because of a predestined elect, but because it's so difficult to keep swimming against the
tide.

Originally posted by BPI
The comment about buying a gun, buying a piece of land, going around the country to protest only illustrates how not free we really are. If freedom
equals being able to afford to do anything you want, then i guess you are free. But to most Americans, working 40+ hours a week just pays the bills
for everyday living and might afford them a vacation every 2-3 years for maybe a week. I translate what you said as: Anyone can be free as long as
they can afford it. Most American aren't free. Most American need their jobs. They can't decide they need a break from work and take 6 months off.
If they do that, they lose all they have been able obtain up to this point. Yeah that sounds like freedom. When payday comes I bet they just rejoice
when 20% percent of their money goes directly to the Federal Reserve. Yeah that's Freedom. I know I love looking at my check right next to the
outrageous taxes is the healthcare deductions. Yeah that's freedom. I didnt agree with invading Iraq, but I'm paying as much as the people who did
agree. Freedom. On top of all the taxes that come directly from our paycheck, we must pay taxes for the small piece of land made available to us to
purchase. If you decide to purchase the land, you will be taxed on the purchase. You will be taxed to continue to live on it and you will be taxed if
want to sell. If you want to enter into this agreement, the bank now controls you for the next 30 years. So you have obligated yourself to a job for
the next 30 years. Then there is the automobile you will need to get to work. Another 3,4,5 years debt to the bank, but it gets better. While you have
the car you will be forced to buy gas, insurance, any repairs that the car will need, pay for a driver's liscence, pay yearly tag renewal fees, some
people pay for an E-Check, pay for the law enforcement to monitor the drivers, pay for any citations everyone gets, all this so you can drive on the
roads that you paid for. FREEDOM.

Yeah, freedom does exist in America, but can you afford it?

You have voted BPI for the Way Above Top Secret award. You have two more votes this month.

You said it perfectly. People are not free, they even don't have the time to recognize it. The illusion of freedom is well kept and the society
reinforces it through our natural need to conform. I have some hope though. More and more people who I am close with seem to have independently got to
the similar conclusion of how actually unfree we are. And I am talking about very different people who have no particular interest in conspiracies at
all.

The problem with 'waking up"is the following realization of how little (if anything) you can do to make a difference. The motivation to continue
your daily activities is low, but life goes on..

I totally agree with you guys, people fail to realize over half the globe are working poor.

Everyone always talks about defending the middle class, its the lower class that is getting beat down by the corporate Elites more than anyone. They
are the ones who need the most help, because they live in survival mode, and I know I am one of them.

Originally posted by BPI
The comment about buying a gun, buying a piece of land, going around the country to protest only illustrates how not free we really are. If freedom
equals being able to afford to do anything you want, then i guess you are free. But to most Americans, working 40+ hours a week just pays the bills
for everyday living and might afford them a vacation every 2-3 years for maybe a week. I translate what you said as: Anyone can be free as long as
they can afford it. Most American aren't free.

Well..that is why *most* people are not wasting their time with 9/11 conspiracy theories. You call em' sheeple-- I call em people that are getting
ahead of you everyday, everyhour, every minute, you waste on this stuff.

I work my ass off..I do it not because I am a slave. I do it to obtain my goals--goals of prosperity.

I didn't say in my post that I was rich.. as a matter of fact I said I would "charge it." But, I can say that through my life experience I have
the power to practically make any choice I want. And the means to do it right. No one bestowed this ability on me. I worked, studied, and clawed my
ass off for it. Just like my dad, my grandfather, my great grandfather....ect.

The reason why most "movements' like this don't really pan out is because by the time the people in the movement have the power and wherewithall to
inact real change...they are already living the good life, and suddenly don't want to change so much anymore. Look at the Beatnicks and Hippies as
prime examples.. (btw their numbers were x 10+ of this truth movement)

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