1 <Day 12 Monday, 31st January 2000. 2MR JUSTICE GRAY: Yes, Mr Irving? 3MR IRVING: My Lord, there are two or three minor housekeeping 4matters left over from the testimony of Professor van 5Pelt. If I can put them to you. There are five points, 6actually very minor ones. Firstly, I was wrong about 7Tauber in one respect and it is quite right that I should 8---- 9MR JUSTICE GRAY: What, bending down? 10MR IRVING: I beg your pardon? Bending down, yes. It was the 11witness Bendal who had bent down. The reference is to 12crematorium (iv) and not (ii) which was, if you remember, 13the one we were shown with the shutters on the wall on the 14side. 15MR JUSTICE GRAY: Yes, the 30 by 40 centimetres? 16MR IRVING: I beg your pardon? 17MR JUSTICE GRAY: 30 by 40 centimetres? 18MR IRVING: The shutters, yes, but obviously I was wrong on 19that. It was with reference to the other eyewitness. 20I was right about the air raid. It was on May 5th 1943. 21MR JUSTICE GRAY: You say air raid in the singular -- just the 22one? 23MR IRVING: Just the one. There had been an air raid before 24the document dated May 5th 1943. The night before there 25had been an air raid. You amy remember Professor van Pelt 26saying he thought there was no air raids until 1944.

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1MR JUSTICE GRAY: Was that an Russian air raid or an Allied? 2MR IRVING: That I do not know, but it is referred to in a 3volume known to the Defence, the Auschwitz Chronicle, 4which is a relatively authoritative work. 5 Your Lordship enquired one or two days earlier 6what the reference was for the fact that Professor van 7Pelt alleged in his report that I had only disclosed the 8existence of the Almeyer report after it was referred and 9after solicitors for the Defendants obtained it. The 10reference is page 390 of his report. My Lord, I have 11these points listed on a sheet of paper which I can hand 12to your clerk. 13MR JUSTICE GRAY: That is probably a good idea, if you would 14not mind? 15MR IRVING: My Lord, you remember we described the witness 16Olaire, the artist, and I referred to an incident with 17sausages, the SS-made sausage from the victims , according 18to Olaire, and I was not able to find the specific 19reference. It is in Pressac, as I said, on page 554. It 20is on the fourth column of the page, lines 17 to 22. 21 Finally, my Lord, I asked witness van Pelt if he 22was familiar with a book by Mr Brugioni, B-R-U-G-I-O-N-I, 23called "Photo Fakery". He was one of the CIA experts who 24had first published the air photographs with the dots on 25the roof. That is the jacket of the book, my Lord. 26 Those are the only which points I wish to refer

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1to and, with your Lordship's permission, I will now call 2my witness, Professor McDonald. 3MR JUSTICE GRAY: Just before you do, can I just mention two 4things to Mr Rampton? The first is that Professor van 5Pelt was going to do a little sort of elementary ---- 6MR RAMPTON: He was going to, yes. 7MR JUSTICE GRAY: -- sketch, I do not mean drawing but... 8MR RAMPTON: Diagram, plan. 9MR JUSTICE GRAY: And a little explanation of what was where 10and so on. 11MR RAMPTON: That is right. 12MR JUSTICE GRAY: It is just to remind you about that. The 13other thing is -- this goes back a few days now -- 14Mr Irving's various speeches on which you rely, mostly in 15the US and Canada and some in Australia, I think I have 16already asked if it would be possible to have, ideally on 17tape, the excerpts that you rely on. 18MR RAMPTON: On tape? 19MR JUSTICE GRAY: Yes. 20MR RAMPTON: You mean if they are ---- 21MR JUSTICE GRAY: On a disk. 22MR RAMPTON: Yes. 23MR JUSTICE GRAY: Is that something you have got in hand? 24MR RAMPTON: Yes, it is all in hand. 25MR JUSTICE GRAY: Good. 26MR RAMPTON: What your Lordship will get in the end -- your

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1Lordship has a hard copy file of the denial passages 2marked up already; for other categories of statement, that 3will also happen -- is a disk also marked up in the same 4way. 5MR JUSTICE GRAY: You can see why it is going to be physically 6much easier to handle. 7MR RAMPTON: It is going to make it a lot easier, yes. 8MR JUSTICE GRAY: Thank you very much. 9MR IRVING: My Lord, can I enquire? When you refer to the 10bundle of transcripts, does your Lordship take cognisance 11of the entire transcript, even if a particular passage is 12not relied on here? 13MR JUSTICE GRAY: I think I have said this in court already 14and, if I have not, I will say it now. I really want to 15know what they are relying on. You can always take the 16point that it is taken out of context or it does not put 17the true flavour of what you have said, but the starting 18point must be that I know what they rely on. 19MR IRVING: Indeed, my Lord, but if there were other passages 20there which caught your eye which I would otherwise 21normally have required to address your Lordship on, I am 22not aware of that. There is a danger, therefore, that you 23may take these as gospels when, in fact ---- 24MR JUSTICE GRAY: We can be quite open about it. Once this 25disk is to hand, then you can see it and, if there are any 26particular points you want to make on it, then you can.