It's not ridiculous. Even just 7 or 8 years ago, on the cycling forums I'd say everyone is doping and there would be droves of people defending the sport as 99% clean and the few caught were exceptions. Only recently are people finally beginning to accept that the sport is very largely tainted. Mention sports like tennis, NFL, NBA, and people's mentality will be where it was a decade ago. But the truth is circulating under the public's noses.

While there is definitely enough info to raise curiosity (re: doping), I suggest more of you do some reading on what the top athletes are doing with their fitness and diet.
Sorry, but hard work goes a long way in adding muscle. Physio and post-workout diet helps with recovery, and the proper sprint/excercise training really does help with endurance. Some body types are simply able to store more energy and/or support more muscle mass.
Transformations in sport are very often mental. You heard it straight from Federer. He pointed to his mental approach as being instrumental in his ability to win matches and start owning the tour.

But back to the physical. Andy Murray, for example, said it took him two years to gain 10 pounds, and had to eat 6,000 calories a day to maintain the weight/muscle. Believe it or not there is a science to it.
I'm not saying there is a 100% chance against the possibility that someone in the top 10 isn't doping, but it's presumptuous, despite Oliver Rochus's comments. I wonder how hard he works on his body/training as compared to the top 5 guys.
Until further evidence, I'll attribute the top 5's success to their talent and huge committment to their physicality - legally.
You guys might want to try a similar workout routine and see how it transforms your success on the tennis court

I think the most damning piece of evidence from this source "His muscles also looks like someone who is doping." With this kind of rock solid evidence and reasoning, it's a wonder Nadal hasn't been stripped of his titles yet.

Good article. Still the evidence is just circumstantial but the fact that he is against more stringent monitoring of players is a bit incongrous. I have a feeling that, like Armstrong, after he retires perhaps someone on his team, a jealous Spanish teammate or a medico looking for some notoriety or a payday might decide to come forward and make some revelations.

I remember watching Verdasco slog Nadal into the ground that year and think that Federer was a dead certainty for the final especially if it went long. I remember waiting all through the match for a sign of fatigue or a gasp for breath. Nothing. It was like he was coming out for the first match of the tournament. This was the first time that alarm bells went off for me. It may be that he is a genetic outlier and just physically gifted and I hope so because it will be horribly damaging and cause a lot of pain if he ever is shown to be something else.

The evidence in that dossier that got Armstrong banned was circumstantial, mostly based on the testimonies of plea bargained cyclists.

<<First, are you trying to say that you know the deals that were cut to all of the people who received plea bargains? THAT would be an interesting claim. Are you also claiming that the testimony of a large number of associates is invalid because they received plea bargains? Also, I guess we should be grateful that you used the word "mostly," but,apparently even you aren't trying to claim that ALL of the evidence came from plea bargaining people, so, that begs the question, why should Armstrong's word be taken over multiple people, even a group of plea bargaining people, let ALONE a group of people who did NOT plea bargain?>>

And what plea bargains were they offered and what were they threatened with if they had refused? The USADA were willing to let Armstrong keep 5 of his Tour de France titles had he plea bargained at one stage, but Armstrong refused, and got a life ban and stripped of all his results back to 1998.

<<I don't care if they agreed to detail his car daily for the next 10 years, reciprocity is the corner of almost all relationships, including the judicial system. Whine all you want, that's the way the system works. You should also look up the phrase "silence is acquiescence" not only was Armstrong silent when he could've spoken up, he went beyond silence and confessed, which you STILL haven't explained-for that matter, what does confessing on Oprah have to do with plea bargaining with officials?? I certainly don't condone letting him keep some of his titles, maybe they had conclusive evidence on the other ones but not so much on the 5, but your contention that somebody who is innocent can be "forced" to take a plea is ludicrous. You also seem to have difficulty with the concept of why it it sometimes advantageous to take a plea bargain, and it's understood if you make the other side go to the mat, AND you're found guilty, of COURSE you're gonna get a much stiffer sentence. What's so hard to understand about THAT?!?!>>

And what plea bargains were they offered and what were they threatened with if they had refused? The USADA were willing to let Armstrong keep 5 of his Tour de France titles had he plea bargained at one stage, but Armstrong refused, and got a life ban and stripped of all his results back to 1998.

Like I said, the whole process is corrupt and makes a fair trial, so to speak, impossible.

Sorry, but the USADA were willing to let Armstrong to keep 5 Tours, if only he had plea bargained. Had Armstrong accepted, the USADA would have either buried evidence of Armstrong's long-term doping or stopped going crazy with their plea bargains on other cyclists to get Armstrong banned for life. As I said, a corrupt process.

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Whatever deal they made with him is easily trumped by the fact that he was guilty, MASSIVELY so, and realized that the evidence to prove same was overwhelming. You can bury your head in the sand, or the hole of your choice, but no amount of spinning can change that fact.

Well, as those who have kids with ADHD can attest, there are drugs which can make you more calm and focused, e.g., adderall. ADD/ADHD drugs aren't necessarily illegal, but they are controlled substances. I don't know what the ITF rules are on these drugs, but in other sports they are legal if there is a prescription. However, I doubt that Fed is taking any such drug.

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I played tennis on Adderal one time- and one time only...I never will do that again. I feared my heart was going to explode and the added mental calmness actually seemed to be hindering me after a certain point when I sensed that, as the match was becoming tight yet my intensity level remained...I guess "flat" would be the best word, I knew then that I should rather be psyching myself up than riding "this strong sense of being unperturbed by everything." It was almost like I could not summon those feelings of being vested in the outcome or care enough to make changes/improvements in my performance precisely because I was on the Adderal.

fed is the least likely to dope/take any drugs.
nadal is suspicious, murray and joker i think is clean as well like fed.

unlike bike racing and baseball, tennis is not an endurance sport or one that requires hitting the ball really hard, so i dont think dope is that effective (very min knowledge about dope, so maybe i'm wrong)

one thing that lance did was to re-inject his fresh blood to keep him fresh, this is more possible scenario in tennis, however considering the amount of tournaments they played and in different countries i dont see this happening (storing and moving blood package undetected year after year? yeah i dont think so) and even if it happen it'll be on occassion where the person is really tired, wont be on every match, maybe before a GS final or something.

tee hee. I still remember last year's AO trophy ceremony where nadal was congratulating djoker and said something "i want to congratulate your team, they are doing an amazing job"

man, the look, just for a second or two, that djoker shot rafa was pure ice cold like "watch it, buddy" LOL

of course clarky will disagree, but it especially amused me. Like one doper saying to another "damn son, your docs blew mine out the water this year" lol.

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Yup, kinda like Robert Shaw in "The Sting," having just found that Paul Newman had cheated him in a card game where he, Shaw, was ALSO cheating: "What was I supposed to do, accuse him of cheating better than me in front of the others?!?!"

fed is the least likely to dope/take any drugs.
nadal is suspicious, murray and joker i think is clean as well like fed.

unlike bike racing and baseball, tennis is not an endurance sport or one that requires hitting the ball really hard, so i dont think dope is that effective (very min knowledge about dope, so maybe i'm wrong)

one thing that lance did was to re-inject his fresh blood to keep him fresh, this is more possible scenario in tennis, however considering the amount of tournaments they played and in different countries i dont see this happening (storing and moving blood package undetected year after year? yeah i dont think so) and even if it happen it'll be on occassion where the person is really tired, wont be on every match, maybe before a GS final or something.

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When you play 4-5 hours, and then have to play the next day endurance can certainly help. Drugs can make players run faster and extra strength will help hit the ball harder. Some drugs can even improve hand-eye coordination... think of Barry Bonds. And other drugs can help a player calm his/her nerves.

Well then I got another question.
How is it possible, that Federer is hanging in at the TOP for over 10 years without any signs of physical fatigue even during incredibly tight five setters later in his career and early 30s.

Can we really atribute it to his talent and physical strength alone?

I'm really enjoying TMF's theories. He wouldn't give a dang about it if Nadal wasn't spanking him in the H2H.
The additional major titles he denied him seem to **** him/her off more than Federer. Butthurt much?!

Well then I got another question.
How is it possible, that Federer is hanging in at the TOP for over 10 years without any signs of physical fatigue even during incredibly tight five setters later in his career and early 30s.

Can we really atribute it to his talent and physical strength alone?

I'm really enjoying TMF's theories. He wouldn't give a dang about it if Nadal wasn't spanking him in the H2H.
The additional major titles he denied him seem to **** him/her off more than Federer. Butthurt much?!

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Do you remember Olympic SF that Fed played vs. Delpo? I think he looked really tired the next day. And many of those 5 setters he lost in the 5th set.

Fed's style is effective/efficient which he only needed to be on 3rd gear. So what if he's been consistently at the top for all these years. He doesn't allow his body to breakdown the way Rafa must sacrifice to be at the top. Rafa required to be on 5th gear all the time, of course the wear and tear catches up rapidly. Also Nadal was already abusing his body at the very young age.

Well, as those who have kids with ADHD can attest, there are drugs which can make you more calm and focused, e.g., adderall. ADD/ADHD drugs aren't necessarily illegal, but they are controlled substances. I don't know what the ITF rules are on these drugs, but in other sports they are legal if there is a prescription. However, I doubt that Fed is taking any such drug.

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Over time dependency occurs on these drugs. Like with coffee and people dependent on caffeine GRADUALLY over a long period of time their brains normal state develops an impaired ability to concentrate and focus. Many neurologists say that amphetamine derivatives* like adderall, pervitin, and amphedroxyn should not be taken for longer than a year.

Federer does not show absent mindedness nor various memory impairments that gradually develop from heavy caffeine dependency or amp-derivate* use.

Well, as those who have kids with ADHD can attest, there are drugs which can make you more calm and focused, e.g., adderall. ADD/ADHD drugs aren't necessarily illegal, but they are controlled substances. I don't know what the ITF rules are on these drugs, but in other sports they are legal if there is a prescription. However, I doubt that Fed is taking any such drug.

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Those drugs are stimulants and are definitely on the list of banned substances for tennis players.

I played tennis on Adderal one time- and one time only...I never will do that again. I feared my heart was going to explode and the added mental calmness actually seemed to be hindering me after a certain point when I sensed that, as the match was becoming tight yet my intensity level remained...I guess "flat" would be the best word, I knew then that I should rather be psyching myself up than riding "this strong sense of being unperturbed by everything." It was almost like I could not summon those feelings of being vested in the outcome or care enough to make changes/improvements in my performance precisely because I was on the Adderal.

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Adderall effects the dopamine levels in the brain, the neurotransmitter that regulate the desire, motivation and reward. This is what you experienced. Long term heavy adderall users who take it day in and day out(heavy meaning high range of acceptable FDA approved levels of prescription for ones bodyweight/sex/age) regularly develop mild to sever impairments in these areas.

If ollinger comes in here saying the meds effect everyone different and dont work the same for ppl without adhd ignore the yadda yadda yadda by ollinger and the career field he chose. Like 95% or more of the catholic church leadership there will be no self conviction of his colleges nor the institute he is part of.

Instead of talking out of your ass, why don't you reel off the long list of players besides Butt Picker who have been fined multiple times for illegal coaching, who admitted in public that they cheated during the final of the one and only US Open that they won, and who have been accused of gamesmanship by multiple players. When you're a lying, cheating toad, you don't automatically get the benefit of the doubt. Furthermore, there are people who concede that he may actually be injured, they just have doubts about the severity of the injury and the length of time it is taking to "heal."

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Pretty much sums it up. I'm not religious but 'you reap what you sow' does ring true quite often.

I think @PSNELKE is just goofing off - or helping out the hapless Nadal backers. He/she is usually a fairly decent poster.

Just going by **** logic. That's pretty much the only "argument" they got regarding a silent ban.

So it is really that unlikely that a guy with such a devastating, knee wrecking game is really injured?
Wild guesses and accusations caused by the anger of butthurt fanboys plead one guilty?

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It's not that his injury is unlikely... It's the fact that he is injured right after his R2 loss at Wimbledon. I don't remember seeing Rafa injured during his last match.. and if he was you can be sure he'd take a MTO. So I'm not sure when did he actually get injured.

When you play 4-5 hours, and then have to play the next day endurance can certainly help. Drugs can make players run faster and extra strength will help hit the ball harder. Some drugs can even improve hand-eye coordination... think of Barry Bonds. And other drugs can help a player calm his/her nerves.

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Bonds had incredible hand-eye coordination long before he took any PEDs. I've never heard anyone state that PEDs enhance hand-eye coordination. If Bonds had never taken a PED his career would have ended sooner, but he would have been in the HOF, as he was already one of the greatest players ever. Ask any seamhead. They may hate him, as he was a total dick, but no one ever questioned his natural abilities.

It's not that his injury is unlikely... It's the fact that he is injured right after his R2 loss at Wimbledon. I don't remember seeing Rafa injured during his last match.. and if he was you can be sure he'd take a MTO. So I'm not sure when did he actually get injured.

Thank you. This is what Nadal fans need to admit. I never know when this guy is supposedly injured. You take 2012 - even though the retirement came after Wimbledon, if you listen to the man himself, he was apparently injured at IW. How he managed to dominate the clay season, win FO and then lose at Wimby later citing injury is beyond me. And this pattern is not isolated.

It's not that his injury is unlikely... It's the fact that he is injured right after his R2 loss at Wimbledon. I don't remember seeing Rafa injured during his last match.. and if he was you can be sure he'd take a MTO. So I'm not sure when did he actually get injured.

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This, too, lol. There are people who think the last time he lost when he WASN'T injured was about, oh, I dunno, 2005-and I suspect that one of them is Uncle Phony. The first and foremost example of this for Nadal Nut Nuzzlers(NNN), of course, is when BP was taken to the woodshed by Soderling at the French Open. On the even of the final, all the news SHOULD have been on the fact that Fed was on the verge of 1) his first French Open and 2) a career Grand Slam. Uncle Phony and BP couldn't resist the temptation to try and steal the spotlight, however, so they just HAD to breathlessly reveal on the eve of the final that BP might miss Wimbledon-which, of course, was more than 2 weeks away. Heaven forbid he should wait until Monday morning, after the tournament and still giving NNNs two full weeks to wring their hands anxiously. It is difficult for me to put into words how happy I am that he is not around, I hope he NEVER gets back, as far as I'm concerned, it would be best thing to happen to tennis since the Open era started. And, as others have suggested, I suspect that a Marion Jones/Lance Armstrong revelation is somewhere in his future, but, time will tell.

This, too, lol. There are people who think the last time he lost when he WASN'T injured was about, oh, I dunno, 2005-and I suspect that one of them is Uncle Phony. The first and foremost example of this for Nadal Nut Nuzzlers(NNN), of course, is when BP was taken to the woodshed by Soderling at the French Open. On the even of the final, all the news SHOULD have been on the fact that Fed was on the verge of 1) his first French Open and 2) a career Grand Slam. Uncle Phony and BP couldn't resist the temptation to try and steal the spotlight, however, so they just HAD to breathlessly reveal on the eve of the final that BP might miss Wimbledon-which, of course, was more than 2 weeks away. Heaven forbid he should wait until Monday morning, after the tournament and still giving NNNs two full weeks to wring their hands anxiously. It is difficult for me to put into words how happy I am that he is not around, I hope he NEVER gets back, as far as I'm concerned, it would be best thing to happen to tennis since the Open era started. And, as others have suggested, I suspect that a Marion Jones/Lance Armstrong revelation is somewhere in his future, but, time will tell.

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Dafinch, someone said in another thread that you're becoming their favorite poster.... I second that sentiment.

well i'll say this, rochus is making as many as zero dollars for speaking his mind here, and i really don't think his ego was in such a state of disrepair that he needed to tear down the tour to make himself feel better for being short. factor in the lack of any real motivation and the obvious answer here is he's telling the truth, or at least, he thinks he is.

"Most of the weight that I put on is in my legs, but the T shirt I'm wearing is tighter," Murray said after reaching the second round. "It's not that I'm any bigger in my upper body. It's just because of the tightness of the T shirt, maybe it appears that way."

"Most of the weight that I put on is in my legs, but the T shirt I'm wearing is tighter," Murray said after reaching the second round. "It's not that I'm any bigger in my upper body. It's just because of the tightness of the T shirt, maybe it appears that way."

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Sure. Why not. Since he has deprived TMF of the gold medal, he has to make this list. Its a no brainer. :roll:

He's admitted to doping and STILL will have to pay back millions of dollars and has had his legacy tarnished forever. The guy fought for so many years all of the allegations, why would he give up now if he was truly innocent? I was looking, and finally found, the one person that still believes Lance to be innocent, even after he says he's guilty.

As for tennis, I wouldn't be surprised if anyone not named Fed, hell even Fed, were found to be a doper. Djok goes from barely being able to finish matches in the heat at AO to being able to take down Nadal in 5-6 hour marathons at the same event a few years later? Sod goes from being a journeyman player to beating Nadal at RG and being a top 5 player? I have suspicions of everyone now.

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Djoker is the most obvious doper. How many matches did he run out of gas in, and now he is an ironman, and it happened practically over night, no doubt he's doping.

Federer is the least likely to be doping. His progression was not overnight.

The suspicious ones are those who went from zero to hero overnight like Nadal who won a mm title in 2004 and then in 2005 won 11 titles and Djokovic who went from winning one or two mm titles in 2010 to winning almost all the big titles, 10 of them, in 2011.

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Double standard much?

Federer won Wimbledon, TMC & five lesser titles in 2003.

2004 - AO, USO, Wimbledon, TMC, IW, Hamburg, CO & four lesser titles.
That's 'zero' to hero! You also failed to mention Rafa's absence from his favourite/most successful part of the season in '04.

"Most of the weight that I put on is in my legs, but the T shirt I'm wearing is tighter," Murray said after reaching the second round. "It's not that I'm any bigger in my upper body. It's just because of the tightness of the T shirt, maybe it appears that way."

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Have you seen the size and muscularity difference of Andy and brother Jamie? Huge difference.

Thank you. This is what Nadal fans need to admit. I never know when this guy is supposedly injured. You take 2012 - even though the retirement came after Wimbledon, if you listen to the man himself, he was apparently injured at IW. How he managed to dominate the clay season, win FO and then lose at Wimby later citing injury is beyond me. And this pattern is not isolated.

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ailing and injured differ in the severity and acuteness of the underline condition.

Nadal has had knee and foot issues even before he became a pro; so it bewildering why individuals like yourself can't seem to comprehend how that would affect his career

Clay is easier on the body and Nadal is head and shoulders above anyone else on that surface; so he can still dominate even if not fully fit!

i'm sort of indifferent to doping, to be honest. i mean, it would be great if it didn't exist, but i'm not that naive. still, if i sit in front of the tele and question every athlete and every result, i'd be exhausted. might as well watch nothing at all.

so i watch, and take what i see at face value. until later, when the scandal breaks and the guilty athletes are vilified. their achievements are invalidated, wins and titles vacated, and the fan is left to figure out how to feel about the whole sordid mess.

my main beef is with the federations and leagues, who make a conscious effort to ignore the issue of peds or do as little as possible, until the pressure is too great to blow off. then they make a great fuss about how their sport has been compromised by the "cheats" in the game, embark on the obligatory investigation and kick out the culprits (after the fact). then they want a big pat on the back for "cleaning up the sport."

i watch tennis without suspicion because i choose to. i can't possibly run and get my pitchfork every single time someone decides to cry "WOLF!"

2004 - AO, USO, Wimbledon, TMC, IW, Hamburg, CO & four lesser titles.
That's 'zero' to hero! You also failed to mention Rafa's absence from his favourite/most successful part of the season in '04.

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He won 2 of the biggest titles in 2003(Wimbledon and the YEC) and 5 more titles. A total of 7 titles. His progression wasn't as striking as Nadal's and Djokovic's. Nadal went from just winning a little title in Sopot to 11 whooping titles the next year. :shock: Djokovic won 2 mm titles in Dubai and China and the next year won 10 big titles. :shock:

Have you seen the size and muscularity difference of Andy and brother Jamie? Huge difference.

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I suspect that has something to do with the fact that for a number of years now Murray junior has travelled with two virtually full time fitness coaches, one of whom (Matt Little) is a specialist strength coach. Had Junior not looked so muscular in comparison to Big Bro' he ought to be asking for his money back.

That's not to say that extra-curricular enhancement hasn't also played its part, particularly in trying to level the field with Nadal and Djokovic. However, there's no way of knowing that one way or the other because tennis is not a team sport like cycling and the doping will be carried out very secretly, well away from the locker room with only the player and perhaps his coach or closest advisor knowing what's going on. Tennis's doping secrets will never emerge like they have with pro-cycling.

What we do know from cycling is that some of its dirty doctors were also being consulted and used by professional tennis players including the likes of David Ferrer and Sara Errani. Watch their results gradually plummet this year.

He won 2 of the biggest titles in 2003(Wimbledon and the YEC) and 5 more titles. A total of 7 titles. His progression wasn't as striking as Nadal's and Djokovic's. Nadal went from just winning a little title in Sopot to 11 whooping titles the next year. :shock: Djokovic won 2 mm titles in Dubai and China and the next year won 10 big titles. :shock:

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1 major, 1 masters cup & five lesser tournaments compared to 3 majors, 1 masters cup, 3 masters & four lesser tournaments is as striking an improvement as Djokovic '10/'11 and far more than Rafa who missed part of April, May & June '04. '11 whooping titles' - eight of which came on clay, in '04 he didn't make the trip to South America, dnp MC, Barcelona, Rome, RG. His clay dominance had to start sometime...and did in 2005. Won his first hard court masters title - brilliant, then lost first match in Cinci & R3 @ USO, hardly a striking improvement.

Have you seen the size and muscularity difference of Andy and brother Jamie? Huge difference.

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So what? I'm much bigger and stronger than my brother, my youngest daughter is much bigger and stronger than my oldest daughter. Jamie and Andy aren't identical twins, so why should they have the same size and musculature?