I think as long as you continue to fantasize about punishing Women in the same manner as any other murderer, you will have lost the moral high ground and Abortion will continue unabated. Good work.

Perhaps you could consider exercising a bit of self restraint. You can raise the same moral and spiritual objections and be more persuasive if you dont go for the nuclear option right out of the gate.

Punishing women..heh, ok. Thats what I do. I love punishing women. Nuclear option indeed. Whatever makes you sleep better at night chief. You want to dress your nonsense up in a coat of shining armor be my guest.

Please clear up my confusion then.

If you want to say Abortion is Murder like any other, then it follows that you will punish Women like any other murderer

If you are hesitant to punish Women like any other Murderer then Abortion must in some way be different than other Murders

I also think it is not useful to call Women Murderers and all that it applies though I fully understand the logic behind it. I think doing that does more harm than good.

So straighten me out..

Thanks

Believe it or not, I do understand where you're coming from, but what do you call it when someone voluntarily and with forethought and planning violently kills another human being, in this case a human being who happens to be inside rather than outside of the womb, and the victim of that violence represents no known threat to the life of anyone else?

Just out of curiosity, in the criminal justice system of most (all?) states, is the punishment that is actually carried out for murder always the same, in every single case without exception? I believe that most (all?) states have different degrees of murder and homicide and manslaughter, with different levels or kinds of punishment, no?

In the case of abortion, who is the murderer? The mother? The abortionist? Both? What about accomplices before, during, and after the fact--like nurses, abortion clinic staff, etc.?

From Reply #515 above:

Quote

Marcus Felix (150 to 160 A.D.) wrote (against the Romans): "There are some women among you who y drinking special potions extinguish the life of the future human in their very bowels, thus committing murder before they even give birth".

Athenagoras of Athens (133-190) (known as St. Athenagoras to the Eastern Orthodox with a feast of July 24) said: "When we say that those women who use drugs to bring on abortion actually commit murder and will have to render an account to God for this, how could we possibly murder infants? It would not make sense for us to regard the very fetus in the womb as a created being, and therefore an object of God's care, and then when it is born to kill it."

Tertullian (150-225) said: "In our case, since murder is absolutely forbidden in any form, we may not destroy even the fetus in the womb... To hinder a birth is merely a speedier form of killing. It matters not whether you take away a life that is born, or destroy one that has not yet come to birth."

Calling women "murderers" if they commit murder is totally appropriate, however unuseful you may think it is. What else would you call them? Your concern and compassion for women who have aborted their babies is noble and laudable (and I'm *not* being sarcastic there!!), and I know quite closely not a few myself and share that concern. However, if you call someone "murderer" who commits murder, are they harmed more than the person they have murdered?

As you pointed out, the penalty for Murder varies. It ranges from a very long prison sentence, to Life in prison to execution. Is that your suggestion for Women who have an Abortion and if not can you not see the logical inconsistency?

Yes, you can call Women "Murderers" according to the doctrines of your Religion. However doing so will guarantee ever rising rates of Abortion as many people will interpret your position as an attempt to foist your religion on them

So you may want to restrain your rhetoric a bit and do things that will reduce Abortions rather than have people dismiss your arguments out of hand.

"...but what do you call it when someone voluntarily and with forethought and planning violently kills another human being, in this case a human being who happens to be inside rather than outside of the womb, and the victim of that violence represents no known threat to the life of anyone else?"

I have made no suggestions here about how to treat women who have abortions, so please don't infer that I'm suggesting something when I posit a question or questions. To be perfectly honest, I'm not entirely sure how women who abort their babies should be treated by the legal system. Oftentimes, as it has been said, the punishment is inherent in the sin, and the very act of killing their baby, if they have any kind of conscience, will catch up with them eventually, and wreak a powerful vengeance. But is that enough? I don't know. A woman who realizes the magnitude of what she has done and repents and begs God's forgiveness must be forgiven, because if God can, then certainly we can, too. But that doesn't bring the baby back to life, it doesn't undo the crime sin, as it were. Perhaps, taking legal action against a woman who aborts her child, and the abortionist, and all those who assist, and using the term "murder" or "homicide" or "manslaughter", and advertising it as such, might act as some kind of deterrent, might give a woman who is considering killing her baby pause enough not to do so and to seek out non-abortion assistance elsewhere that could be made even more widely available than it already is. But these are things I do not know with a certainty.

It is your religion/faith/Church as well as mine that refers to abortion as murder. If that's not clear, then there's nothing left to discuss.

You have no proof and no way to prove that referring to women who abort their babies as murderers (and please do not infer from that that I am advocating that we do so) will guarantee increased rates of abortion.

I have no intention of foisting my faith on others, and actively try not to do so out in the world. But on this board we are discussing this amongst ourselves, as a population the majority of which is Christian (or at least claims to be so), and as such discussing the matter within the parameters of Christian teaching is nothing if not appropriate.

Since you are unsure how to punish Women who have abortions then you are apparently open to the suggestion that Abortions may be in a separate and unique category different from say, walking up to someone and shooting them in the head.

Yes threatening people with prison or worse can have some deterrent effects.. I am simply suggesting not to got down that road.

In reality, there is no chance what so ever of Abortion being made illegal again. The odds went from virtually no chance to absolutely impossible with Obama's reelection and the two appointments he is likely to make to the Court before he leaves office.

So in that context it may be a great idea to stop threatening people and to start trying to persuade them... IMHO.

My approach would be to treat women who have aborted like any other murderer. I would pray for them.

This is topic should NEVER be a debate among Christians. Simple writings of the Early Christians depict abortions as murder.

Marcus Felix (150 to 160 A.D.) wrote (against the Romans): "There are some women among you who y drinking special potions extinguish the life of the future human in their very bowels, thus committing murder before they even give birth".

Athenagoras of Athens (133-190) (known as St. Athenagoras to the Eastern Orthodox with a feast of July 24) said: "When we say that those women who use drugs to bring on abortion actually commit murder and will have to render an account to God for this, how could we possibly murder infants? It would not make sense for us to regard the very fetus in the womb as a created being, and therefore an object of God's care, and then when it is born to kill it."

Tertullian (150-225) said: "In our case, since murder is absolutely forbidden in any form, we may not destroy even the fetus in the womb... To hinder a birth is merely a speedier form of killing. It matters not whether you take away a life that is born, or destroy one that has not yet come to birth."

I hope that these three quotes will be used by all of you, whenever a Christian of any denomination tries to debate you on this issue.

The earliest writers of the church called it "MURDER". Abortion is murder. Period. There are no what if or situations that can excuse it.

I hope to never see a debate on this again. Those debating for abortion either1) Dislike the teachings of early Christianity and its writersand/or2) Are not really Christians and pretending to be

You are wasting your breath and casting pearls before swine. There has NEVER been a disagreement within the Church and among Christians as to abortion being murder. The only thing that has been up for discussion is the penalty. Those who's eyes have been so clouded as to not see that the extinguishing of life in the womb is nothing other than murder will not benefit from further discussion. Of the options that you present above, I believe that only 2) is correct, and usually make it a point to no longer discuss matters of religion with such people as I have no understanding of the religion that they profess.

And yet your approach has utterly failed to stop Abortion and in fact may have increased them.

So Real Christians should use threatening rhetoric that alienates people and drives them into Pro Choice logic. Got it.

What is to stop you from cutting my throat? What is to stop John Doe from beating somebody with a bat? Would we alienate these people? Is there room for forgiveness, repentance? Is there room for mercy?

I believe by example of our savior being killed calling out "forgive them for they not know what they do", is the approach that I would have towards a murderer. The earliest Christians were non-resistant (physically). It is a very tough lesson to learn and unlike anything fleshy I can contemplate. (take our cross and follow him) We should not refuse a woman who committed abortion, nor a man who has murdered. We should receive them as others, pray for their sins and them ours.

For me the trouble of non-resistance comes in immediate danger. A woman who has aborted as any murderer should be received as any sinner - as a brother or sister.

*note I say should*, doing so can be hard. The earliest Christians *were this way* - Think... St. Paul.

I think as long as you continue to fantasize about punishing Women in the same manner as any other murderer, you will have lost the moral high ground and Abortion will continue unabated. Good work.

Perhaps you could consider exercising a bit of self restraint. You can raise the same moral and spiritual objections and be more persuasive if you dont go for the nuclear option right out of the gate.

Punishing women..heh, ok. Thats what I do. I love punishing women. Nuclear option indeed. Whatever makes you sleep better at night chief. You want to dress your nonsense up in a coat of shining armor be my guest.

Please clear up my confusion then.

If you want to say Abortion is Murder like any other, then it follows that you will punish Women like any other murderer

If you are hesitant to punish Women like any other Murderer then Abortion must in some way be different than other Murders

I also think it is not useful to call Women Murderers and all that it applies though I fully understand the logic behind it. I think doing that does more harm than good.

So straighten me out..

Thanks

Believe it or not, I do understand where you're coming from, but what do you call it when someone voluntarily and with forethought and planning violently kills another human being, in this case a human being who happens to be inside rather than outside of the womb, and the victim of that violence represents no known threat to the life of anyone else?

Just out of curiosity, in the criminal justice system of most (all?) states, is the punishment that is actually carried out for murder always the same, in every single case without exception? I believe that most (all?) states have different degrees of murder and homicide and manslaughter, with different levels or kinds of punishment, no?

In the case of abortion, who is the murderer? The mother? The abortionist? Both? What about accomplices before, during, and after the fact--like nurses, abortion clinic staff, etc.?

From Reply #515 above:

Quote

Marcus Felix (150 to 160 A.D.) wrote (against the Romans): "There are some women among you who y drinking special potions extinguish the life of the future human in their very bowels, thus committing murder before they even give birth".

Athenagoras of Athens (133-190) (known as St. Athenagoras to the Eastern Orthodox with a feast of July 24) said: "When we say that those women who use drugs to bring on abortion actually commit murder and will have to render an account to God for this, how could we possibly murder infants? It would not make sense for us to regard the very fetus in the womb as a created being, and therefore an object of God's care, and then when it is born to kill it."

Tertullian (150-225) said: "In our case, since murder is absolutely forbidden in any form, we may not destroy even the fetus in the womb... To hinder a birth is merely a speedier form of killing. It matters not whether you take away a life that is born, or destroy one that has not yet come to birth."

Calling women "murderers" if they commit murder is totally appropriate, however unuseful you may think it is. What else would you call them? Your concern and compassion for women who have aborted their babies is noble and laudable (and I'm *not* being sarcastic there!!), and I know quite closely not a few myself and share that concern. However, if you call someone "murderer" who commits murder, are they harmed more than the person they have murdered?

As you pointed out, the penalty for Murder varies. It ranges from a very long prison sentence, to Life in prison to execution. Is that your suggestion for Women who have an Abortion and if not can you not see the logical inconsistency?

Yes, you can call Women "Murderers" according to the doctrines of your Religion. However doing so will guarantee ever rising rates of Abortion as many people will interpret your position as an attempt to foist your religion on them

So you may want to restrain your rhetoric a bit and do things that will reduce Abortions rather than have people dismiss your arguments out of hand.

"...but what do you call it when someone voluntarily and with forethought and planning violently kills another human being, in this case a human being who happens to be inside rather than outside of the womb, and the victim of that violence represents no known threat to the life of anyone else?"

I have made no suggestions here about how to treat women who have abortions, so please don't infer that I'm suggesting something when I posit a question or questions. To be perfectly honest, I'm not entirely sure how women who abort their babies should be treated by the legal system. Oftentimes, as it has been said, the punishment is inherent in the sin, and the very act of killing their baby, if they have any kind of conscience, will catch up with them eventually, and wreak a powerful vengeance. But is that enough? I don't know. A woman who realizes the magnitude of what she has done and repents and begs God's forgiveness must be forgiven, because if God can, then certainly we can, too. But that doesn't bring the baby back to life, it doesn't undo the crime sin, as it were. Perhaps, taking legal action against a woman who aborts her child, and the abortionist, and all those who assist, and using the term "murder" or "homicide" or "manslaughter", and advertising it as such, might act as some kind of deterrent, might give a woman who is considering killing her baby pause enough not to do so and to seek out non-abortion assistance elsewhere that could be made even more widely available than it already is. But these are things I do not know with a certainty.

It is your religion/faith/Church as well as mine that refers to abortion as murder. If that's not clear, then there's nothing left to discuss.

You have no proof and no way to prove that referring to women who abort their babies as murderers (and please do not infer from that that I am advocating that we do so) will guarantee increased rates of abortion.

I have no intention of foisting my faith on others, and actively try not to do so out in the world. But on this board we are discussing this amongst ourselves, as a population the majority of which is Christian (or at least claims to be so), and as such discussing the matter within the parameters of Christian teaching is nothing if not appropriate.

Since you are unsure how to punish Women who have abortions then you are apparently open to the suggestion that Abortions may be in a separate and unique category different from say, walking up to someone and shooting them in the head.

Yes threatening people with prison or worse can have some deterrent effects.. I am simply suggesting not to got down that road.

In reality, there is no chance what so ever of Abortion being made illegal again. The odds went from virtually no chance to absolutely impossible with Obama's reelection and the two appointments he is likely to make to the Court before he leaves office.

So in that context it may be a great idea to stop threatening people and to start trying to persuade them... IMHO.

My approach would be to treat women who have aborted like any other murderer. I would pray for them.

There is nothing to pray for until one first recognizes the sin. It is only through repentance that there is forgiveness. Those that make excuses for the sin rather than lead the sinner to repentance are the most vile and hateful of humanity, and even more evil when they shroud themselves in the name of Christ.

Logged

I would be happy to agree with you, but then both of us would be wrong.

I think as long as you continue to fantasize about punishing Women in the same manner as any other murderer, you will have lost the moral high ground and Abortion will continue unabated. Good work.

Perhaps you could consider exercising a bit of self restraint. You can raise the same moral and spiritual objections and be more persuasive if you dont go for the nuclear option right out of the gate.

Punishing women..heh, ok. Thats what I do. I love punishing women. Nuclear option indeed. Whatever makes you sleep better at night chief. You want to dress your nonsense up in a coat of shining armor be my guest.

Please clear up my confusion then.

If you want to say Abortion is Murder like any other, then it follows that you will punish Women like any other murderer

If you are hesitant to punish Women like any other Murderer then Abortion must in some way be different than other Murders

I also think it is not useful to call Women Murderers and all that it applies though I fully understand the logic behind it. I think doing that does more harm than good.

So straighten me out..

Thanks

Believe it or not, I do understand where you're coming from, but what do you call it when someone voluntarily and with forethought and planning violently kills another human being, in this case a human being who happens to be inside rather than outside of the womb, and the victim of that violence represents no known threat to the life of anyone else?

Just out of curiosity, in the criminal justice system of most (all?) states, is the punishment that is actually carried out for murder always the same, in every single case without exception? I believe that most (all?) states have different degrees of murder and homicide and manslaughter, with different levels or kinds of punishment, no?

In the case of abortion, who is the murderer? The mother? The abortionist? Both? What about accomplices before, during, and after the fact--like nurses, abortion clinic staff, etc.?

From Reply #515 above:

Quote

Marcus Felix (150 to 160 A.D.) wrote (against the Romans): "There are some women among you who y drinking special potions extinguish the life of the future human in their very bowels, thus committing murder before they even give birth".

Athenagoras of Athens (133-190) (known as St. Athenagoras to the Eastern Orthodox with a feast of July 24) said: "When we say that those women who use drugs to bring on abortion actually commit murder and will have to render an account to God for this, how could we possibly murder infants? It would not make sense for us to regard the very fetus in the womb as a created being, and therefore an object of God's care, and then when it is born to kill it."

Tertullian (150-225) said: "In our case, since murder is absolutely forbidden in any form, we may not destroy even the fetus in the womb... To hinder a birth is merely a speedier form of killing. It matters not whether you take away a life that is born, or destroy one that has not yet come to birth."

Calling women "murderers" if they commit murder is totally appropriate, however unuseful you may think it is. What else would you call them? Your concern and compassion for women who have aborted their babies is noble and laudable (and I'm *not* being sarcastic there!!), and I know quite closely not a few myself and share that concern. However, if you call someone "murderer" who commits murder, are they harmed more than the person they have murdered?

As you pointed out, the penalty for Murder varies. It ranges from a very long prison sentence, to Life in prison to execution. Is that your suggestion for Women who have an Abortion and if not can you not see the logical inconsistency?

Yes, you can call Women "Murderers" according to the doctrines of your Religion. However doing so will guarantee ever rising rates of Abortion as many people will interpret your position as an attempt to foist your religion on them

So you may want to restrain your rhetoric a bit and do things that will reduce Abortions rather than have people dismiss your arguments out of hand.

"...but what do you call it when someone voluntarily and with forethought and planning violently kills another human being, in this case a human being who happens to be inside rather than outside of the womb, and the victim of that violence represents no known threat to the life of anyone else?"

I have made no suggestions here about how to treat women who have abortions, so please don't infer that I'm suggesting something when I posit a question or questions. To be perfectly honest, I'm not entirely sure how women who abort their babies should be treated by the legal system. Oftentimes, as it has been said, the punishment is inherent in the sin, and the very act of killing their baby, if they have any kind of conscience, will catch up with them eventually, and wreak a powerful vengeance. But is that enough? I don't know. A woman who realizes the magnitude of what she has done and repents and begs God's forgiveness must be forgiven, because if God can, then certainly we can, too. But that doesn't bring the baby back to life, it doesn't undo the crime sin, as it were. Perhaps, taking legal action against a woman who aborts her child, and the abortionist, and all those who assist, and using the term "murder" or "homicide" or "manslaughter", and advertising it as such, might act as some kind of deterrent, might give a woman who is considering killing her baby pause enough not to do so and to seek out non-abortion assistance elsewhere that could be made even more widely available than it already is. But these are things I do not know with a certainty.

It is your religion/faith/Church as well as mine that refers to abortion as murder. If that's not clear, then there's nothing left to discuss.

You have no proof and no way to prove that referring to women who abort their babies as murderers (and please do not infer from that that I am advocating that we do so) will guarantee increased rates of abortion.

I have no intention of foisting my faith on others, and actively try not to do so out in the world. But on this board we are discussing this amongst ourselves, as a population the majority of which is Christian (or at least claims to be so), and as such discussing the matter within the parameters of Christian teaching is nothing if not appropriate.

Since you are unsure how to punish Women who have abortions then you are apparently open to the suggestion that Abortions may be in a separate and unique category different from say, walking up to someone and shooting them in the head.

Yes threatening people with prison or worse can have some deterrent effects.. I am simply suggesting not to got down that road.

In reality, there is no chance what so ever of Abortion being made illegal again. The odds went from virtually no chance to absolutely impossible with Obama's reelection and the two appointments he is likely to make to the Court before he leaves office.

So in that context it may be a great idea to stop threatening people and to start trying to persuade them... IMHO.

I think it might be possible, within the framework of our secular legal system, to create a separate category of culpable homicide for abortion. I think, too, that people must feel a threat AND must be persuaded. They are, after all, killing a living human being, which in any civilized society is wrong, and there must be consequences that people are aware of if they go ahead and consciously do so, in addition to any pangs of conscience they might experience.

So, while abortion is really not all that different from walking up to someone and shooting them in the head, we already have legal consequences for the latter that do act, at least sometimes, as a deterrent but not for the former.

But you need to realize that most people dont share your religious beliefs. Accepting that a zygot is a full blown human being with a "Soul" is based on the teachings of your Church.. I happen to share that belief. But it is completely based on a religious formulation.

Americans are very touchy about having a Religious doctrine imposed upon them. So threatening people who disagree with your faith based idea's is pretty much a non starter as we have witnessed by the complete failure of the Pro Life Movement to get abortion made illegal or even to curb the number of abortions..

Logged

Your idea has been debunked 1000 times already.. Maybe 1001 will be the charm

There is nothing to pray for until one first recognizes the sin. It is only through repentance that there is forgiveness. Those that make excuses for the sin rather than lead the sinner to repentance are the most vile and hateful of humanity, and even more evil when they shroud themselves in the name of Christ.

I'm sorry, but I disagree with you on this one. The Romans nailing our savior to a cross were not repenting, yet they were prayed for - asking for their forgiveness.

But you need to realize that most people dont share your religious beliefs. Accepting that a zygot is a full blown human being with a "Soul" is based on the teachings of your Church.. I happen to share that belief. But it is completely based on a religious formulation.

Americans are very touchy about having a Religious doctrine imposed upon them. So threatening people who disagree with your faith based idea's is pretty much a non starter as we have witnessed by the complete failure of the Pro Life Movement to get abortion made illegal or even to curb the number of abortions..

The hard thing about this thread is that we are going between what should be "law/worldly punishment", and the "religious issue".

Strictly speaking religiously, we should pray for those who commit murder (abortion or otherwise). If they do approach Christianity in repentance, accept them as brothers or sisters.

Speaking in "law/worldly ways" Laws will never matter in a countries without faith. Turtle eggs are more protected than unborn human beings here.

Through faith we should educate anybody wherever we live about abortion. We should open up many alternatives to abortion. We should seek Christian Doctors/midwives willing to perform the birth for free, Christian lawyers to do adoption papers for free, and parents willing to raise an otherwise aborted child as their own.

I know most of you here, including me, would be willing to accept an otherwise "going to be aborted child" into your home - or at least would help a local community private funded orphanage either by labor or financial.

There are ways around abortion. I look for options to prevent murder. Options for young / unmarried / scared / poor women to be able to turn to without judgment or hassle. Anyway, I would love to see every branch of Christianity UNITE against abortion. Though doctrine is different (yes dogmas too) most are opposed to abortion and would do a lot to prevent murder. Many would be happy to work along side EO's, RC's, OO's, Protestants, Anabaptists, Messianics., etc., in order to stop abortion.

The quotes I posted above should absolutely end this argument not only for The Eastern Orthodox Church, but to any person that considers themselves a Christian. These are the "early guys", all real quotes.

It is not my argument of course, it is their quotes that speak for themselves. If these three can call it murder & killing, it is murder & killing.

Christians should consider a woman who has an abortion - has murdered.

Will there be mass round ups? Prison Camps out in the desert? Firring squads? Gulags in Alaska?

No, no, no and no. There may well be a sharp rise in quickie trips to Canada or the Caribbean, though.

Only if we assume that nothing else will be done to reduce abortions other than whatever legal action is instituted.

That is precisely how legislation works, about 99% of the time.

Sorry...I'm old and dim. ..that went over my head.

Paul Ryan and his cohorts made a lot of noise last year about making abortion illegal. What did they say about their projects to support the new families that such a measure would create, and so make abortion irrelevant as well?

Zilch. Nada. Diddly squat.

Instead, there has long been much moaning in the house about 'handouts' and 'welfare queens'.

All it takes to make abortion illegal is a signature. That's easy. Creating a family support system, on the other hand, takes time, effort and resources... that those who make decisions for the people don't seem willing to put in.

Not doing away with something until you have something better ready to replace it is just common sense.

Logged

'When you live your path all the time, you end up with both more path and more time.'~Venecia Rauls

The quotes I posted above should absolutely end this argument not only for The Eastern Orthodox Church, but to any person that considers themselves a Christian. These are the "early guys", all real quotes.

It is not my argument of course, it is their quotes that speak for themselves. If these three can call it murder & killing, it is murder & killing.

Christians should consider a woman who has an abortion - has murdered.

Will there be mass round ups? Prison Camps out in the desert? Firring squads? Gulags in Alaska?

No, no, no and no. There may well be a sharp rise in quickie trips to Canada or the Caribbean, though.

Only if we assume that nothing else will be done to reduce abortions other than whatever legal action is instituted.

That is precisely how legislation works, about 99% of the time.

Sorry...I'm old and dim. ..that went over my head.

Paul Ryan and his cohorts made a lot of noise last year about making abortion illegal. What did they say about their projects to support the new families that such a measure would create, and so make abortion irrelevant as well?

Zilch. Nada. Diddly squat.

Instead, there has long been much moaning in the house about 'handouts' and 'welfare queens'.

All it takes to make abortion illegal is a signature. That's easy. Creating a family support system, on the other hand, takes time, effort and resources... that those who make decisions for the people don't seem willing to put in.

Not doing away with something until you have something better ready to replace it is just common sense.

Not doing away with legalized murder until you have a comfort platform is common sense? Even more importantly, the two are completely seperate issues.

The quotes I posted above should absolutely end this argument not only for The Eastern Orthodox Church, but to any person that considers themselves a Christian. These are the "early guys", all real quotes.

It is not my argument of course, it is their quotes that speak for themselves. If these three can call it murder & killing, it is murder & killing.

Christians should consider a woman who has an abortion - has murdered.

Will there be mass round ups? Prison Camps out in the desert? Firring squads? Gulags in Alaska?

No, no, no and no. There may well be a sharp rise in quickie trips to Canada or the Caribbean, though.

Only if we assume that nothing else will be done to reduce abortions other than whatever legal action is instituted.

That is precisely how legislation works, about 99% of the time.

Sorry...I'm old and dim. ..that went over my head.

Paul Ryan and his cohorts made a lot of noise last year about making abortion illegal. What did they say about their projects to support the new families that such a measure would create, and so make abortion irrelevant as well?

Zilch. Nada. Diddly squat.

Instead, there has long been much moaning in the house about 'handouts' and 'welfare queens'.

All it takes to make abortion illegal is a signature. That's easy. Creating a family support system, on the other hand, takes time, effort and resources... that those who make decisions for the people don't seem willing to put in.

Not doing away with something until you have something better ready to replace it is just common sense.

Not doing away with legalized murder until you have a comfort platform is common sense? Even more importantly, the two are completely seperate issues.

If you want to stop abortion, instead of simply driving it underground, the issues are inseparable.

Logged

'When you live your path all the time, you end up with both more path and more time.'~Venecia Rauls

The quotes I posted above should absolutely end this argument not only for The Eastern Orthodox Church, but to any person that considers themselves a Christian. These are the "early guys", all real quotes.

It is not my argument of course, it is their quotes that speak for themselves. If these three can call it murder & killing, it is murder & killing.

Christians should consider a woman who has an abortion - has murdered.

Will there be mass round ups? Prison Camps out in the desert? Firring squads? Gulags in Alaska?

No, no, no and no. There may well be a sharp rise in quickie trips to Canada or the Caribbean, though.

Only if we assume that nothing else will be done to reduce abortions other than whatever legal action is instituted.

That is precisely how legislation works, about 99% of the time.

Sorry...I'm old and dim. ..that went over my head.

Paul Ryan and his cohorts made a lot of noise last year about making abortion illegal. What did they say about their projects to support the new families that such a measure would create, and so make abortion irrelevant as well?

Zilch. Nada. Diddly squat.

Instead, there has long been much moaning in the house about 'handouts' and 'welfare queens'.

All it takes to make abortion illegal is a signature. That's easy. Creating a family support system, on the other hand, takes time, effort and resources... that those who make decisions for the people don't seem willing to put in.

Not doing away with something until you have something better ready to replace it is just common sense.

Not doing away with legalized murder until you have a comfort platform is common sense? Even more importantly, the two are completely seperate issues.

If you want to stop abortion, instead of simply driving it underground, the issues are inseparable.

They actually are not. They are distinct. The confusion came into existance only after abortion was legalized. A few decades vs thousands of years. You do the math. As far as your desire for a solution, it has always been there which may be why it was not addressed. A single word, if taken to heart, descibes it...responsibility.

The quotes I posted above should absolutely end this argument not only for The Eastern Orthodox Church, but to any person that considers themselves a Christian. These are the "early guys", all real quotes.

It is not my argument of course, it is their quotes that speak for themselves. If these three can call it murder & killing, it is murder & killing.

Christians should consider a woman who has an abortion - has murdered.

Will there be mass round ups? Prison Camps out in the desert? Firring squads? Gulags in Alaska?

No, no, no and no. There may well be a sharp rise in quickie trips to Canada or the Caribbean, though.

Only if we assume that nothing else will be done to reduce abortions other than whatever legal action is instituted.

That is precisely how legislation works, about 99% of the time.

Sorry...I'm old and dim. ..that went over my head.

Paul Ryan and his cohorts made a lot of noise last year about making abortion illegal. What did they say about their projects to support the new families that such a measure would create, and so make abortion irrelevant as well?

Zilch. Nada. Diddly squat.

Instead, there has long been much moaning in the house about 'handouts' and 'welfare queens'.

All it takes to make abortion illegal is a signature. That's easy. Creating a family support system, on the other hand, takes time, effort and resources... that those who make decisions for the people don't seem willing to put in.

Not doing away with something until you have something better ready to replace it is just common sense.

Not doing away with legalized murder until you have a comfort platform is common sense? Even more importantly, the two are completely seperate issues.

If you want to stop abortion, instead of simply driving it underground, the issues are inseparable.

They actually are not. They are distinct. The confusion came into existance only after abortion was legalized. A few decades vs thousands of years. You do the math. As far as your desire for a solution, it has always been there which may be why it was not addressed. A single word, if taken to heart, descibes it...responsibility.

Lawmakers and governments have responsibilities as well.

In Europe, where abortion is a much less controversial issue and where there is actual support for families (in the UK, the government actually pays us to have children), abortion rates are significantly lower than in the US. You do the math.

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'When you live your path all the time, you end up with both more path and more time.'~Venecia Rauls

The quotes I posted above should absolutely end this argument not only for The Eastern Orthodox Church, but to any person that considers themselves a Christian. These are the "early guys", all real quotes.

It is not my argument of course, it is their quotes that speak for themselves. If these three can call it murder & killing, it is murder & killing.

Christians should consider a woman who has an abortion - has murdered.

Will there be mass round ups? Prison Camps out in the desert? Firring squads? Gulags in Alaska?

No, no, no and no. There may well be a sharp rise in quickie trips to Canada or the Caribbean, though.

Only if we assume that nothing else will be done to reduce abortions other than whatever legal action is instituted.

That is precisely how legislation works, about 99% of the time.

Sorry...I'm old and dim. ..that went over my head.

Paul Ryan and his cohorts made a lot of noise last year about making abortion illegal. What did they say about their projects to support the new families that such a measure would create, and so make abortion irrelevant as well?

Zilch. Nada. Diddly squat.

Instead, there has long been much moaning in the house about 'handouts' and 'welfare queens'.

All it takes to make abortion illegal is a signature. That's easy. Creating a family support system, on the other hand, takes time, effort and resources... that those who make decisions for the people don't seem willing to put in.

Not doing away with something until you have something better ready to replace it is just common sense.

Not doing away with legalized murder until you have a comfort platform is common sense? Even more importantly, the two are completely seperate issues.

If you want to stop abortion, instead of simply driving it underground, the issues are inseparable.

They actually are not. They are distinct. The confusion came into existance only after abortion was legalized. A few decades vs thousands of years. You do the math. As far as your desire for a solution, it has always been there which may be why it was not addressed. A single word, if taken to heart, descibes it...responsibility.

Lawmakers and governments have responsibilities as well.

In Europe, where abortion is a much less controversial issue and where there is actual support for families (in the UK, the government actually pays us to have children), abortion rates are significantly lower than in the US. You do the math.

How is what you posted relevant to abortion being a legalized method of murder, being wrong and being an absolute sin according to the Church, the Scriptures and Tradition? For that matter, how is it relevant to personal responsibility? Or anything else?

The quotes I posted above should absolutely end this argument not only for The Eastern Orthodox Church, but to any person that considers themselves a Christian. These are the "early guys", all real quotes.

It is not my argument of course, it is their quotes that speak for themselves. If these three can call it murder & killing, it is murder & killing.

Christians should consider a woman who has an abortion - has murdered.

Will there be mass round ups? Prison Camps out in the desert? Firring squads? Gulags in Alaska?

No, no, no and no. There may well be a sharp rise in quickie trips to Canada or the Caribbean, though.

Only if we assume that nothing else will be done to reduce abortions other than whatever legal action is instituted.

That is precisely how legislation works, about 99% of the time.

Sorry...I'm old and dim. ..that went over my head.

Paul Ryan and his cohorts made a lot of noise last year about making abortion illegal. What did they say about their projects to support the new families that such a measure would create, and so make abortion irrelevant as well?

Zilch. Nada. Diddly squat.

Instead, there has long been much moaning in the house about 'handouts' and 'welfare queens'.

All it takes to make abortion illegal is a signature. That's easy. Creating a family support system, on the other hand, takes time, effort and resources... that those who make decisions for the people don't seem willing to put in.

Not doing away with something until you have something better ready to replace it is just common sense.

Not doing away with legalized murder until you have a comfort platform is common sense? Even more importantly, the two are completely seperate issues.

If you want to stop abortion, instead of simply driving it underground, the issues are inseparable.

They actually are not. They are distinct. The confusion came into existance only after abortion was legalized. A few decades vs thousands of years. You do the math. As far as your desire for a solution, it has always been there which may be why it was not addressed. A single word, if taken to heart, descibes it...responsibility.

Lawmakers and governments have responsibilities as well.

In Europe, where abortion is a much less controversial issue and where there is actual support for families (in the UK, the government actually pays us to have children), abortion rates are significantly lower than in the US. You do the math.

How is what you posted relevant to abortion being a legalized method of murder, being wrong and being an absolute sin according to the Church, the Scriptures and Tradition? For that matter, how is it relevant to personal responsibility? Or anything else?

It isn’t.

The Church has always had its position, and nobody is disputing that. The state is another kettle of fish altogether, and the position I've been holding throughout this debate is that criminalising abortion a) is unfeasible, and b) will do more harm than good.

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'When you live your path all the time, you end up with both more path and more time.'~Venecia Rauls

The state is another kettle of fish altogether, and the position I've been holding throughout this debate is that criminalising abortion a) is unfeasible, and b) will do more harm than good.

You mean more harm than murdering millions of innocents every year? I can't even begin to wrap my mind around this opinion. No, more harm is done as a result of legalized abortion and the heartless killing of millions of babies every year is only the beginning of the harm done. And to prove this, let’s observe the numbers pre/post-legalized abortion. Many more done now than anyone had imagined. In fact, had they then known what is now happening, I get the feeling the outcome would have been different.

EDIT:Considering our civil laws were founded on biblical/Church ethics and values, I have no reservation about influencing any future laws based on biblical/Church principles.

The state is another kettle of fish altogether, and the position I've been holding throughout this debate is that criminalising abortion a) is unfeasible, and b) will do more harm than good.

You mean more harm than murdering millions of innocents every year?

Yes, that's precisely what I mean. There would be an underground network for (very expensive) safe abortions, an even larger network for unsafe ones, ethical conundrums for medical personnel, many dead women, many dead babies - clumsily aborted or strangled at birth, as they used to be in days of yore - many charges bandied about and leading nowhere, and law enforcement completely powerless to actually enforce the law. Welcome to the new dark ages.

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'When you live your path all the time, you end up with both more path and more time.'~Venecia Rauls

Somehow it saddens me that a thread called "Is Abortion actually murder?" has reached page 13.

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"Who wants to be consistent? The dullard and the doctrinaire, the tedious people who carry out their principles to the bitter end of action, to the reductio ad absurdum of practice. Not I."-Oscar Wilde, The Decay of Lying

Somehow it saddens me that a thread called "Is Abortion actually murder?" has reached page 13.

Yes, it saddens me, too--enormously. The answer to the question in the title is either a) yes, or b) no. There is no in-between, really. If since the answer is "YES", all the rest of the discussion is or should be about "what do we do about it?".

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"May Thy Cross, O Lord, in which I seek refuge, be for me a bridge across the great river of fire. May I pass along it to the habitation of life." ~St. Ephraim the Syrian

I think as long as you continue to fantasize about punishing Women in the same manner as any other murderer, you will have lost the moral high ground and Abortion will continue unabated. Good work.

Perhaps you could consider exercising a bit of self restraint. You can raise the same moral and spiritual objections and be more persuasive if you dont go for the nuclear option right out of the gate.

Punishing women..heh, ok. Thats what I do. I love punishing women. Nuclear option indeed. Whatever makes you sleep better at night chief. You want to dress your nonsense up in a coat of shining armor be my guest.

Please clear up my confusion then.

If you want to say Abortion is Murder like any other, then it follows that you will punish Women like any other murderer

If you are hesitant to punish Women like any other Murderer then Abortion must in some way be different than other Murders

I also think it is not useful to call Women Murderers and all that it applies though I fully understand the logic behind it. I think doing that does more harm than good.

So straighten me out..

Thanks

Believe it or not, I do understand where you're coming from, but what do you call it when someone voluntarily and with forethought and planning violently kills another human being, in this case a human being who happens to be inside rather than outside of the womb, and the victim of that violence represents no known threat to the life of anyone else?

Just out of curiosity, in the criminal justice system of most (all?) states, is the punishment that is actually carried out for murder always the same, in every single case without exception? I believe that most (all?) states have different degrees of murder and homicide and manslaughter, with different levels or kinds of punishment, no?

In the case of abortion, who is the murderer? The mother? The abortionist? Both? What about accomplices before, during, and after the fact--like nurses, abortion clinic staff, etc.?

From Reply #515 above:

Quote

Marcus Felix (150 to 160 A.D.) wrote (against the Romans): "There are some women among you who y drinking special potions extinguish the life of the future human in their very bowels, thus committing murder before they even give birth".

Athenagoras of Athens (133-190) (known as St. Athenagoras to the Eastern Orthodox with a feast of July 24) said: "When we say that those women who use drugs to bring on abortion actually commit murder and will have to render an account to God for this, how could we possibly murder infants? It would not make sense for us to regard the very fetus in the womb as a created being, and therefore an object of God's care, and then when it is born to kill it."

Tertullian (150-225) said: "In our case, since murder is absolutely forbidden in any form, we may not destroy even the fetus in the womb... To hinder a birth is merely a speedier form of killing. It matters not whether you take away a life that is born, or destroy one that has not yet come to birth."

Calling women "murderers" if they commit murder is totally appropriate, however unuseful you may think it is. What else would you call them? Your concern and compassion for women who have aborted their babies is noble and laudable (and I'm *not* being sarcastic there!!), and I know quite closely not a few myself and share that concern. However, if you call someone "murderer" who commits murder, are they harmed more than the person they have murdered?

As you pointed out, the penalty for Murder varies. It ranges from a very long prison sentence, to Life in prison to execution. Is that your suggestion for Women who have an Abortion and if not can you not see the logical inconsistency?

Yes, you can call Women "Murderers" according to the doctrines of your Religion. However doing so will guarantee ever rising rates of Abortion as many people will interpret your position as an attempt to foist your religion on them

So you may want to restrain your rhetoric a bit and do things that will reduce Abortions rather than have people dismiss your arguments out of hand.

"...but what do you call it when someone voluntarily and with forethought and planning violently kills another human being, in this case a human being who happens to be inside rather than outside of the womb, and the victim of that violence represents no known threat to the life of anyone else?"

I have made no suggestions here about how to treat women who have abortions, so please don't infer that I'm suggesting something when I posit a question or questions. To be perfectly honest, I'm not entirely sure how women who abort their babies should be treated by the legal system. Oftentimes, as it has been said, the punishment is inherent in the sin, and the very act of killing their baby, if they have any kind of conscience, will catch up with them eventually, and wreak a powerful vengeance. But is that enough? I don't know. A woman who realizes the magnitude of what she has done and repents and begs God's forgiveness must be forgiven, because if God can, then certainly we can, too. But that doesn't bring the baby back to life, it doesn't undo the crime sin, as it were. Perhaps, taking legal action against a woman who aborts her child, and the abortionist, and all those who assist, and using the term "murder" or "homicide" or "manslaughter", and advertising it as such, might act as some kind of deterrent, might give a woman who is considering killing her baby pause enough not to do so and to seek out non-abortion assistance elsewhere that could be made even more widely available than it already is. But these are things I do not know with a certainty.

It is your religion/faith/Church as well as mine that refers to abortion as murder. If that's not clear, then there's nothing left to discuss.

You have no proof and no way to prove that referring to women who abort their babies as murderers (and please do not infer from that that I am advocating that we do so) will guarantee increased rates of abortion.

I have no intention of foisting my faith on others, and actively try not to do so out in the world. But on this board we are discussing this amongst ourselves, as a population the majority of which is Christian (or at least claims to be so), and as such discussing the matter within the parameters of Christian teaching is nothing if not appropriate.

Since you are unsure how to punish Women who have abortions then you are apparently open to the suggestion that Abortions may be in a separate and unique category different from say, walking up to someone and shooting them in the head.

Yes threatening people with prison or worse can have some deterrent effects.. I am simply suggesting not to got down that road.

In reality, there is no chance what so ever of Abortion being made illegal again. The odds went from virtually no chance to absolutely impossible with Obama's reelection and the two appointments he is likely to make to the Court before he leaves office.

So in that context it may be a great idea to stop threatening people and to start trying to persuade them... IMHO.

I think it might be possible, within the framework of our secular legal system, to create a separate category of culpable homicide for abortion. I think, too, that people must feel a threat AND must be persuaded. They are, after all, killing a living human being, which in any civilized society is wrong, and there must be consequences that people are aware of if they go ahead and consciously do so, in addition to any pangs of conscience they might experience.

So, while abortion is really not all that different from walking up to someone and shooting them in the head, we already have legal consequences for the latter that do act, at least sometimes, as a deterrent but not for the former.

But you need to realize that most people dont share your religious beliefs. Accepting that a zygot is a full blown human being with a "Soul" is based on the teachings of your Church.. I happen to share that belief. But it is completely based on a religious formulation.

Americans are very touchy about having a Religious doctrine imposed upon them. So threatening people who disagree with your faith based idea's is pretty much a non starter as we have witnessed by the complete failure of the Pro Life Movement to get abortion made illegal or even to curb the number of abortions..

Yes, I realize that "most people" don't share my religious beliefs. But...what about the science? If you take religion out of the equation (which you really cannot, totally), and science can show that a fetus, an embryo is indeed a human life, and we have laws (founded, as was mentioned above, in large part on Scriptural (Jewish and Christian) principles) against taking human life......

Quote

When do human beings begin?‘Scientific’ myths and scientific facts

I. Introduction:

The question as to when a human being begins is strictly a scientific question, and should be answered by human embryologists - not by philosophers, bioethicists, theologians, politicians, x-ray technicians, movie stars or obstetricians and gynecologists. Current discussions on abortion, human embryo research (including cloning, stem cell research and the formation of mixed-species chimeras) and the use of abortifacients involve specific claims as to when the life of every human being begins. The purpose of this article is to focus directly on just some of the "scientific" myths, and on the objective scientific facts that ought to ground these discussions. At least it will clarify what the actual international consensus of human embryologists is with regard to this relatively simple scientific question. If the "science" used to ground these various discussions is incorrect, then any conclusions will be rendered groundless and invalid. http://www.all.org/abac/dni003.htm

Quote

At this point in the debate, some try and introduce a separate distinction and question of “personhood.” Aside from this usually being a convoluted way to try and create classes of human beings and that it doesn’t hold up to any consistently logical scrutiny, it’s also not at all a scientific argument. It’s a philosophical one. So it is totally irrelevant to the scientific question of when human life begins.

Recently, Dr. Robert George wrote an article outlining this whole topic in more detail. And if you want to really learn your stuff, pick up his excellent book entitled Embryo (I’m in the middle of reading it right now). In his words: “That is, in human reproduction, when sperm joins ovum, these two individual cells cease to be, and their union generates a new and distinct organism. This organism is a whole, though in the beginning developmentally immature, member of the human species. Readers need not take our word for this: They can consult any of the standard human-embryology texts, such as Moore and Persaud’s The Developing Human, Larsen’s Human Embryology, Carlson’s Human Embryology & Developmental Biology, and O’Rahilly and Mueller’s Human Embryology & Teratology.” – Dr. Robert Georgehttp://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0385522827/ref=olp_product_details?ie=UTF8&me=&seller=

“Human embryos, whether they are formed by fertilization (natural or in vitro) or by successful somatic-cell nuclear transfer (SCNT — i.e., cloning), do have the internal resources and active disposition to develop themselves to the mature stage of a human organism, requiring only a suitable environment and nutrition. In fact, scientists distinguish embryos from other cells or clusters of cells precisely by their self-directed, integral functioning — their organismal behavior. Thus, human embryos are what the embryology textbooks say they are, namely, human organisms — living individuals of the human species — at the earliest developmental stage.” – Dr. Robert Georgehttp://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0385522827/ref=olp_product_details?ie=UTF8&me=&seller=

But you need to realize that most people dont share your religious beliefs. Accepting that a zygot is a full blown human being with a "Soul" is based on the teachings of your Church.. I happen to share that belief. But it is completely based on a religious formulation.

Americans are very touchy about having a Religious doctrine imposed upon them. So threatening people who disagree with your faith based idea's is pretty much a non starter as we have witnessed by the complete failure of the Pro Life Movement to get abortion made illegal or even to curb the number of abortions..

The hard thing about this thread is that we are going between what should be "law/worldly punishment", and the "religious issue".

Strictly speaking religiously, we should pray for those who commit murder (abortion or otherwise). If they do approach Christianity in repentance, accept them as brothers or sisters.

Speaking in "law/worldly ways" Laws will never matter in a countries without faith. Turtle eggs are more protected than unborn human beings here.

Through faith we should educate anybody wherever we live about abortion. We should open up many alternatives to abortion. We should seek Christian Doctors/midwives willing to perform the birth for free, Christian lawyers to do adoption papers for free, and parents willing to raise an otherwise aborted child as their own.

I know most of you here, including me, would be willing to accept an otherwise "going to be aborted child" into your home - or at least would help a local community private funded orphanage either by labor or financial.

There are ways around abortion. I look for options to prevent murder. Options for young / unmarried / scared / poor women to be able to turn to without judgment or hassle. Anyway, I would love to see every branch of Christianity UNITE against abortion. Though doctrine is different (yes dogmas too) most are opposed to abortion and would do a lot to prevent murder. Many would be happy to work along side EO's, RC's, OO's, Protestants, Anabaptists, Messianics., etc., in order to stop abortion.

Wow.. A Lenten Miracle... I agree with you ! +1

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Your idea has been debunked 1000 times already.. Maybe 1001 will be the charm

There is nothing to pray for until one first recognizes the sin. It is only through repentance that there is forgiveness. Those that make excuses for the sin rather than lead the sinner to repentance are the most vile and hateful of humanity, and even more evil when they shroud themselves in the name of Christ.

I'm sorry, but I disagree with you on this one. The Romans nailing our savior to a cross were not repenting, yet they were prayed for - asking for their forgiveness.

Seems from my reading of the Scripture and the Lives of the Saints, at least one did repent. He later became a Saint of the Church. Again, you use one incident to try to negate the whole teaching of the Scriptures that forgiveness comes from repentance.

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I would be happy to agree with you, but then both of us would be wrong.

There is nothing to pray for until one first recognizes the sin. It is only through repentance that there is forgiveness. Those that make excuses for the sin rather than lead the sinner to repentance are the most vile and hateful of humanity, and even more evil when they shroud themselves in the name of Christ.

I'm sorry, but I disagree with you on this one. The Romans nailing our savior to a cross were not repenting, yet they were prayed for - asking for their forgiveness.

Seems from my reading of the Scripture and the Lives of the Saints, at least one did repent. He later became a Saint of the Church. Again, you use one incident to try to negate the whole teaching of the Scriptures that forgiveness comes from repentance.

I must be understanding your point twisted up... Dunno.

What I'm saying is that whether a person repents or not, that we should pray for them, ask God to forgive them, and that we should forgive them.

If they repent, that is much better for their sake, and I would also say for them in the eyes of God. If they make excuses or do not repent, that we should still pray, ask forgiveness, and ask God to forgive them - along with forgiving them ourselves.

The state is another kettle of fish altogether, and the position I've been holding throughout this debate is that criminalising abortion a) is unfeasible, and b) will do more harm than good.

You mean more harm than murdering millions of innocents every year?

Yes, that's precisely what I mean. There would be an underground network for (very expensive) safe abortions, an even larger network for unsafe ones, ethical conundrums for medical personnel, many dead women, many dead babies - clumsily aborted or strangled at birth, as they used to be in days of yore - many charges bandied about and leading nowhere, and law enforcement completely powerless to actually enforce the law. Welcome to the new dark ages.

This is an utterly groundless statement. You condone the murder of MILLIONS of innocent babies by saying a few thousand abortions used to get done and thankfully many of those murderous mothers suffered as well. Your statement holds no rational position. It is nothing more than crazy talk. But to be fair, I want to make sure I understand. You say it’s ok to murder millions of innocent babies to save a few thousand whose mothers were going to kill them anyway and some of those murderers by their own actions could cause their own deaths in the process?

Because I don't rejoice at anyone's suffering, and I think doing so is a messed up way to attempt to defend babies. This is exactly what I hear from my secular humanist friends all the time regarding this issue: "Sure, you care so much about the fetus/baby, but what about the mother/father/other full-grown people?" I can't really be glad if they should hurt themselves, even in the process of doing something that is against the will of God.

The discussion of whether abortion is murder, if we limit our discussion to that, is a perfectly appropriate discussion for the Public Forum, since we're talking only about what the Christian churches teach about abortion. To argue, however, one side or the other in the debate over whether abortion should be kept legal is a discussion of politics that has no place on the Public Forum. Please keep this in mind as you consider what you want to post to this thread.

As of right now, many of the more recent posts have delved too much into the politics of abortion and will be split off and moved to the Politics board as soon as someone who's not as tired as I am right now is able to review them. Until then, anyone who submits another post to this thread to discuss abortion legislation will be given a formal warning for posting politics to the Public Forum.

The state is another kettle of fish altogether, and the position I've been holding throughout this debate is that criminalising abortion a) is unfeasible, and b) will do more harm than good.

You mean more harm than murdering millions of innocents every year?

Yes, that's precisely what I mean. There would be an underground network for (very expensive) safe abortions, an even larger network for unsafe ones, ethical conundrums for medical personnel, many dead women, many dead babies - clumsily aborted or strangled at birth, as they used to be in days of yore - many charges bandied about and leading nowhere, and law enforcement completely powerless to actually enforce the law. Welcome to the new dark ages.

This is an utterly groundless statement. You condone the murder of MILLIONS of innocent babies by saying a few thousand abortions used to get done and thankfully many of those murderous mothers suffered as well. Your statement holds no rational position. It is nothing more than crazy talk. But to be fair, I want to make sure I understand. You say it’s ok to murder millions of innocent babies to save a few thousand whose mothers were going to kill them anyway and some of those murderers by their own actions could cause their own deaths in the process?

Actually, the Mothers are not murderous in their hearts at all. They don't believe that they are carrying a fully formed soul. I dare say most don't even know what a soul is exactly.

They believe they are dealing with a "Condition" that only involves them. In fact, it is reasonable for a Woman to believe that at least in early stages of pregnancy that the zygote or embryo is not yet a person. It's only via the teachings of your own religion that you think otherwise. Of course you really don't "know" for sure either. You just trust the teachings of your Church. A Church most of these Women don't follow or even remotely understand.

So as long as you characterize Women as "Murderous" you will hamper any attempts to convince them not to have an abortion because they already know how wrong you are about them..

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Your idea has been debunked 1000 times already.. Maybe 1001 will be the charm

I think it's been very clearly established, in several posts, that the Church teaches that abortion is actually murder. Whether of not secular law considers it so or should consider it so, and what we should or should not do about it really is another matter. Maybe it's time now to move this discussion to "Politics".

What say you, PtA (or any other moderator)?

« Last Edit: March 21, 2013, 10:38:13 AM by J Michael »

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"May Thy Cross, O Lord, in which I seek refuge, be for me a bridge across the great river of fire. May I pass along it to the habitation of life." ~St. Ephraim the Syrian

The state is another kettle of fish altogether, and the position I've been holding throughout this debate is that criminalising abortion a) is unfeasible, and b) will do more harm than good.

You mean more harm than murdering millions of innocents every year?

Yes, that's precisely what I mean. There would be an underground network for (very expensive) safe abortions, an even larger network for unsafe ones, ethical conundrums for medical personnel, many dead women, many dead babies - clumsily aborted or strangled at birth, as they used to be in days of yore - many charges bandied about and leading nowhere, and law enforcement completely powerless to actually enforce the law. Welcome to the new dark ages.

This is an utterly groundless statement. You condone the murder of MILLIONS of innocent babies by saying a few thousand abortions used to get done and thankfully many of those murderous mothers suffered as well. Your statement holds no rational position. It is nothing more than crazy talk. But to be fair, I want to make sure I understand. You say it’s ok to murder millions of innocent babies to save a few thousand whose mothers were going to kill them anyway and some of those murderers by their own actions could cause their own deaths in the process?

Actually, the Mothers are not murderous in their hearts at all. They don't believe that they are carrying a fully formed soul. I dare say most don't even know what a soul is exactly.

They believe they are dealing with a "Condition" that only involves them. In fact, it is reasonable for a Woman to believe that at least in early stages of pregnancy that the zygote or embryo is not yet a person. It's only via the teachings of your own religion that you think otherwise. Of course you really don't "know" for sure either. You just trust the teachings of your Church. A Church most of these Women don't follow or even remotely understand.

So as long as you characterize Women as "Murderous" you will hamper any attempts to convince them not to have an abortion because they already know how wrong you are about them..

Marc, the fact that they don't consider the children to be human is beyond the point. Morality isn't based on this. Unit 731 referred to the people they tested on as "logs". But they weren't logs, they were people. (Trying to sidestep Godwin's Law here.) Just because some callous individuals believe that these children are just clusters of cells, doesn't really matter. There are lots of people (typically my fellow motorists) I'd love to consider "just a cluster of cells" and gun down. But morality keeps me from it. That and the consequences.

The only difference between a crappy driver and a fetus is that one is legally declared a human and the other is untermensch.

The point of this thread is the Church's opinion, not the State's. From a legal standpoint we cannot at this time call them murderers. But as a matter of religion the answer is clear cut.

And when the Church is more humane than the State - which is usually - perhaps it would be best if we followed God's law rather than that of Man, and call an apple an apple.

The state is another kettle of fish altogether, and the position I've been holding throughout this debate is that criminalising abortion a) is unfeasible, and b) will do more harm than good.

You mean more harm than murdering millions of innocents every year?

Yes, that's precisely what I mean. There would be an underground network for (very expensive) safe abortions, an even larger network for unsafe ones, ethical conundrums for medical personnel, many dead women, many dead babies - clumsily aborted or strangled at birth, as they used to be in days of yore - many charges bandied about and leading nowhere, and law enforcement completely powerless to actually enforce the law. Welcome to the new dark ages.

This is an utterly groundless statement. You condone the murder of MILLIONS of innocent babies by saying a few thousand abortions used to get done and thankfully many of those murderous mothers suffered as well. Your statement holds no rational position. It is nothing more than crazy talk. But to be fair, I want to make sure I understand. You say it’s ok to murder millions of innocent babies to save a few thousand whose mothers were going to kill them anyway and some of those murderers by their own actions could cause their own deaths in the process?

Actually, the Mothers are not murderous in their hearts at all. They don't believe that they are carrying a fully formed soul. I dare say most don't even know what a soul is exactly.

They believe they are dealing with a "Condition" that only involves them. In fact, it is reasonable for a Woman to believe that at least in early stages of pregnancy that the zygote or embryo is not yet a person. It's only via the teachings of your own religion that you think otherwise. Of course you really don't "know" for sure either. You just trust the teachings of your Church. A Church most of these Women don't follow or even remotely understand.

So as long as you characterize Women as "Murderous" you will hamper any attempts to convince them not to have an abortion because they already know how wrong you are about them..

Marc, the fact that they don't consider the children to be human is beyond the point. Morality isn't based on this. Unit 731 referred to the people they tested on as "logs". But they weren't logs, they were people. (Trying to sidestep Godwin's Law here.) Just because some callous individuals believe that these children are just clusters of cells, doesn't really matter. There are lots of people (typically my fellow motorists) I'd love to consider "just a cluster of cells" and gun down. But morality keeps me from it. That and the consequences.

The only difference between a crappy driver and a fetus is that one is legally declared a human and the other is untermensch.

The point of this thread is the Church's opinion, not the State's. From a legal standpoint we cannot at this time call them murderers. But as a matter of religion the answer is clear cut.

And when the Church is more humane than the State - which is usually - perhaps it would be best if we followed God's law rather than that of Man, and call an apple an apple.

I think the point should be working to have fewer abortions.. Being strident and threatening people has not worked so far and will probably continue not to work. You are cutting off your nose to spite your face.. Enjoy.

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Your idea has been debunked 1000 times already.. Maybe 1001 will be the charm

I think the point should be working to have fewer abortions.. Being strident and threatening people has not worked so far and will probably continue not to work. You are cutting off your nose to spite your face.. Enjoy.

I don't think that you can say that since we are not allowed to be truly strident. I would be willing to guarantee that if we were to execute all abortion doctors and apply the penalty for murder to all women having an abortion, the abortion rate would drop to a level much lower than it is today, and the total deaths (from abortion and execution) would still be lower than the abortion deaths alone as they are now. Now the morality of this approach is certainly up for question, but I do not think that the results could be debated.

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I would be happy to agree with you, but then both of us would be wrong.

I think the point should be working to have fewer abortions.. Being strident and threatening people has not worked so far and will probably continue not to work. You are cutting off your nose to spite your face.. Enjoy.

I don't think that you can say that since we are not allowed to be truly strident. I would be willing to guarantee that if we were to execute all abortion doctors and apply the penalty for murder to all women having an abortion, the abortion rate would drop to a level much lower than it is today, and the total deaths (from abortion and execution) would still be lower than the abortion deaths alone as they are now. Now the morality of this approach is certainly up for question, but I do not think that the results could be debated.

I think his point is that we should pretend not to think it's murder so as to make our cause more appealing to pro-choice people.

I would point out that there are several recent instances of right-wing organisations diluting their positions to make them more palatable to their ideological opponents. I think in particular of:

The Episcopal Church since the the 1970s or so (if I have my dates right)

The Catholic Church since Vatican II

The Republican Party (actually, American conservatives in general)

How has that worked out for them? Have they become more popular, more relevant? Have their goals been better achieved?

I think the point should be working to have fewer abortions.. Being strident and threatening people has not worked so far and will probably continue not to work. You are cutting off your nose to spite your face.. Enjoy.

I don't think that you can say that since we are not allowed to be truly strident. I would be willing to guarantee that if we were to execute all abortion doctors and apply the penalty for murder to all women having an abortion, the abortion rate would drop to a level much lower than it is today, and the total deaths (from abortion and execution) would still be lower than the abortion deaths alone as they are now. Now the morality of this approach is certainly up for question, but I do not think that the results could be debated.

I think his point is that we should pretend not to think it's murder so as to make our cause more appealing to pro-choice people.

I would point out that there are several recent instances of right-wing organisations diluting their positions to make them more palatable to their ideological opponents. I think in particular of:

The Episcopal Church since the the 1970s or so (if I have my dates right)

The Catholic Church since Vatican II

The Republican Party (actually, American conservatives in general)

How has that worked out for them? Have they become more popular, more relevant? Have their goals been better achieved?

Not very well. At least with God you get consistency, even if He isn't kewl anymore.

I think the point should be working to have fewer abortions.. Being strident and threatening people has not worked so far and will probably continue not to work. You are cutting off your nose to spite your face.. Enjoy.

I don't think that you can say that since we are not allowed to be truly strident. I would be willing to guarantee that if we were to execute all abortion doctors and apply the penalty for murder to all women having an abortion, the abortion rate would drop to a level much lower than it is today, and the total deaths (from abortion and execution) would still be lower than the abortion deaths alone as they are now. Now the morality of this approach is certainly up for question, but I do not think that the results could be debated.

I think his point is that we should pretend not to think it's murder so as to make our cause more appealing to pro-choice people.

I would point out that there are several recent instances of right-wing organisations diluting their positions to make them more palatable to their ideological opponents. I think in particular of:

The Episcopal Church since the the 1970s or so (if I have my dates right)

The Catholic Church since Vatican II

The Republican Party (actually, American conservatives in general)

How has that worked out for them? Have they become more popular, more relevant? Have their goals been better achieved?

Well, categorizing The Episcopal Church and the Catholic Church as "right-wing organisations" is really stretching things, and it's beyond the scope of this thread, but I certainly get your point. Just out of curiosity, how has the Catholic Church's position on abortion been "diluted"? I know there are individual Catholics and people who self-identify as "Catholics" but rarely if ever step foot in a church, much less receive the Sacraments, and various "liberal" groups of religious men and women who are all very much for abortion and women's right to choose (to kill their unborn baby), but they hardly are representative of the Catholic Church as a whole, and the Church's position on abortion is that it is a very grave and "mortal" sin. Period.

Logged

"May Thy Cross, O Lord, in which I seek refuge, be for me a bridge across the great river of fire. May I pass along it to the habitation of life." ~St. Ephraim the Syrian

I think the point should be working to have fewer abortions.. Being strident and threatening people has not worked so far and will probably continue not to work. You are cutting off your nose to spite your face.. Enjoy.

I don't think that you can say that since we are not allowed to be truly strident. I would be willing to guarantee that if we were to execute all abortion doctors and apply the penalty for murder to all women having an abortion, the abortion rate would drop to a level much lower than it is today, and the total deaths (from abortion and execution) would still be lower than the abortion deaths alone as they are now. Now the morality of this approach is certainly up for question, but I do not think that the results could be debated.

I think his point is that we should pretend not to think it's murder so as to make our cause more appealing to pro-choice people.

I would point out that there are several recent instances of right-wing organisations diluting their positions to make them more palatable to their ideological opponents. I think in particular of:

The Episcopal Church since the the 1970s or so (if I have my dates right)

The Catholic Church since Vatican II

The Republican Party (actually, American conservatives in general)

How has that worked out for them? Have they become more popular, more relevant? Have their goals been better achieved?

Well, categorizing The Episcopal Church and the Catholic Church as "right-wing organisations" is really stretching things,

Not if you adopt my definition of Right and Left, which is supra-political. Both churches were, if you must, conservative. (The Catholic Church to a large extent still is, but the Episcopals have gone off the deep end.)

Just out of curiosity, how has the Catholic Church's position on abortion been "diluted"?

As far as I know it hasn't, at least at the level of dogma, though I'd like a few more people to be excommunicated over the issue. I was referring to the general dilution of the Faith through poor religious education, Protestantised liturgies, etc. and not criticising the Catholic position on abortion specifically. The point was that weakening your stance on your own crucial views and attitudes to appeal to your enemies more rarely works.

I know there are individual Catholics and people who self-identify as "Catholics" but rarely if ever step foot in a church, much less receive the Sacraments, and various "liberal" groups of religious men and women who are all very much for abortion and women's right to choose (to kill their unborn baby), but they hardly are representative of the Catholic Church as a whole, and the Church's position on abortion is that it is a very grave and "mortal" sin. Period.

Oh, I dont dispute the point. Again, I wasn't talking about the abortion issue specifically when I mentioned the Catholic Church.

I think the point should be working to have fewer abortions.. Being strident and threatening people has not worked so far and will probably continue not to work. You are cutting off your nose to spite your face.. Enjoy.

I don't think that you can say that since we are not allowed to be truly strident. I would be willing to guarantee that if we were to execute all abortion doctors and apply the penalty for murder to all women having an abortion, the abortion rate would drop to a level much lower than it is today, and the total deaths (from abortion and execution) would still be lower than the abortion deaths alone as they are now. Now the morality of this approach is certainly up for question, but I do not think that the results could be debated.

Prosecution rests your honor.

Logged

Your idea has been debunked 1000 times already.. Maybe 1001 will be the charm