Zhen Li wrote: Also, I'm not sure about administrators in the Vinaya...

Generally speaking everything has to go to a vote as per karma proceedings. A motion is put forward a few times and provided nobody objects, then it is passed. Otherwise there needs to be discussion and if need be a vote.

This isn't viable, but then in the spirit of democracy there could be leaders elected by the community to make decisions for a set term.

However, monasteries are all dictatorships or autocracies. Historically it seems this was also the case in most cultures and time periods.

I don't object to strong leadership if it is benevolent, but then again this begs the question why propagate a Vinaya system you don't even follow half of.

Of course, there are different approaches and people have different affinities.

However, this thread is about Western monastics specifically, so I feel duty bound to give them an honest portrayal of what I have seen during my own monastic journey.

To surgarcoat the lack of requosite support in Tibetan monasteries, barriers to women in Theravada monasticism, or lack if willingness for cultural accomodatin in Taiwanese Buddhism would make me feel like I was being dishonest.

Sure really exceptional people can thrive in any environment. But most people are average like me, not exceptional. Therefore I want them to go to intitutions whrte they have a fair chance of fitting in, rather than ones that have a poor track record accomodating Westerners.

Foreigners may be trumpeted out to great fanfare, but if 3 years later less than 10 percent remain, that tells you the individuals were not the only problem.

As for work being practice depending on the mind, perhaps that can be argued. But if the mind has no chance to hear, contemplate and meditate I don't see how that is possible

In order to ensure my mind never comes under the power of the self-cherishing attitude,I must obtain control over my own mind. Therefore, amongst all empowerments, the empowerment that gives me control over my mind is the best,and I have received the most profound empowerment with this teaching.-Atisha Dipamkarabrtsal ba'i bkhra drin

Thank you Ven. Khedrup for being so open, you and Ven. Indrajala are really helping people and the Dharma by not sugar-coating what the situation in monasticism is. Some years ago I was quite naive and subsequently disallusioned, I even took a short break from Buddhism, but I saw similar issues in Jainism. I realized then that people and institutions have afflictions, the Dharma is always true. So I then put my faith and trust in the Dharma and I have no worries if clerics/orgs aren't perfect, bad,not right for me etc...

I really respect both of your for your honesty. I think you'll help people's faith and those who want to ordain with your words and experiences.gasshoRory

As for work being practice depending on the mind, perhaps that can be argued. But if the mind has no chance to hear, contemplate and meditate I don't see how that is possible

Well, people need to know what they're getting into. I also think it would be nicer if more than 10 percent westerners remain. However, people shouldn't rush into this sort of thing: they should prepare by both living in a monastery or similar environment for a few years first, knowing the language used beforehand, and of course at the same time having back up plans. Every tradition of Buddhism will require you to know a second language if one ordains, so one might as well make the ordination the best experience possible by getting all of the necessities beforehand. As for people's cultures not being accommodated, I really also think that people need to know what culture they're going into, like that culture, live in that culture, and be able to assimilate into it without putting extra burden on one's monastic instructors. One clearly shouldn't ordain in Taiwanese monasteries if one doesn't know how to speak Chinese or doesn't like or isn't able to assimilate into Chinese/Taiwanese culture. Your situation is really an understandable exception since you had to find somewhere to stay as a monk, but for everyone who hasn't ordained yet: ordination is not a necessity in life, one can also practice Dharma as a lay person, so one shouldn't set one's self up for failure, and if one isn't into Taiwanese Buddhism, one shouldn't ordain into it. As for the broader question of knowing how to approach work beforehand, in the old days people never heard the Dharma unless they were ordained, but now, people have no excuse not to learn it as a layperson. As such, assuming one knows what one is getting oneself into, one should also understand what one is getting oneself into, and how to approach it mentally from a Buddhist perspective. HHDL, besides saying westerners simply shouldn't be Buddhists, also says that if they want to ordain they should be a Buddhist for many years first - which makes perfect sense to me.

I don't object to strong leadership if it is benevolent, but then again this begs the question why propagate a Vinaya system you don't even follow half of.

What's followed is helpful, and makes the Sangha worthy of alms. The Vinaya has changed, but what remains is still better than nothing, or just the 10 precepts alone. That the written word of the Vinaya hasn't changed, or that there's no official event at which this took place, isn't really relevant, it's just common and accepted practice. But karma proceedings aren't an administrative tool, as far as I am aware they're for matters like ordination, expulsion, etc. and if it is an administrative tool, it doesn't sound like a very good idea.

As long as one follows the rules and is not belligerent, I don't see how one can be considered a burden. Are ESL students a burden? No, they simply have different needs. With the exception of one or two foreigners, most of the foreigners I met in Taiwan were better behaved than a good portion of their Taiwanese counterparts, several of whom told me they were sent to Buddhist colleges as a way to address their juvenile delinquency (common in Thailand and some Himalayan monasteries as well).

In terms of the issue of cultural accomodation, when localization is a stated primary goal of several of the organizations, one could be forgiven for thinking there might be some level of cultural accomodation.

Especially when organizations send out recruiters to various countries to gather students for the colleges! Ironically, Tibetan and Thai monasteries do not recruit, nor do they have localization as a stated goal, but they are far more accomodating, perhaps not on the support but on the cultural level.

During my current visit to India I met two Ladakhi nuns who spent over 10 years at one of the major Taiwanese orgs. They described instances of having cherished images of Tara and Manjushri removed from the inside of books, being prevented from seeing the Ladakhi Ganden Tripa when he visited Taiwan, being discouraged from speaking their language, forbidden from reading books about Tibetan Buddhism and hearing their traditional form of Buddhism and their culture rubbished by their monastic superiors on a regular basis. Such behaviour has no excuse.

Cultural chauvanism is a huge barrier to localization. It seems fundamentally misguided to me to broadly publish photos of new African monks to great fanfare, when efforts over 20 years to integrate hundreds of them have failed, with only one remaining.

What changes have been made that will allow this new group to succeed? If there have been changes please inform me, it would be great news to let people know about!

Your points would hold true if promises were not made to such people.

I look at it this way- embracing other cultures would be a plus for the Taiwanese Sangha. When they went to overseas centres they'd be better prepared to teach outside their own tiny communities, and of much greater benefit.

Unfortunately, as long as the present attitudes remain, neither side benefits.

Also, I found outside of the monasteries that the Taiwanese were quite an open and accomodating people, I am not sure the monasteties reflect the enyire culture (and maybe they shouldn't).

The fundamental problem is overseas people are still being actively recruited, while their is sn entrenched attitude that any discussion of these issues is ungrateful criticism. It is tragic because the resources are there to allow the efforts to be successful, and I think Chinese Buddhism is a fascinating and rich tradition.

There is nothing I'd love more than to have a dialigue about these issues with the relevant authorities to improve things. But if there is no willingess from their side even to listen to the nuns I mentioned who gave 10 years to tge temple, I don't think they'd be interested in hearing from me.

The thing is many of the people who move on are very capable- and remain ordained. Even I manage to be of some use as a translator!

In order to ensure my mind never comes under the power of the self-cherishing attitude,I must obtain control over my own mind. Therefore, amongst all empowerments, the empowerment that gives me control over my mind is the best,and I have received the most profound empowerment with this teaching.-Atisha Dipamkarabrtsal ba'i bkhra drin

JKhedrup wrote:During my current visit to India I met two Ladakhi nuns who spent over 10 years at one of the major Taiwanese orgs. They described instances of having cherished images of Tara and Manjushri removed from the inside of books, being prevented from seeing the Ladakhi Ganden Tripa when he visited Taiwan, being discouraged from speaking their language, forbidden from reading books about Tibetan Buddhism and hearing their traditional form of Buddhism and their culture rubbished by their monastic superiors on a regular basis. Such behaviour has no excuse.

Ladakhi nuns I met reported the same cruelty at Foguang Shan (maybe we're talking about the same people?). One told me how they went into her room unannounced and took photographs of a thangka and then proceeded to tell her Tibetan Buddhism is heretical.

You're right. Such behaviour has no excuse, but then that's Foguang Shan for you.

Indrajala wrote:Ladakhi nuns I met reported the same cruelty at Foguang Shan (maybe we're talking about the same people?). One told me how they went into her room unannounced and took photographs of a thangka and then proceeded to tell her Tibetan Buddhism is heretical.

You know, individuals in such a massive organisation each will have their own views. One can't speak of such things as policy. Perhaps expectedly, I've heard far worse things towards Mahayana Buddhism in general from individual Theravadans, that doesn't mean everyone who practices Theravada is like that. Such behaviour will come as a surprise and appear rude to many people within such massive organisations also - the staff also rotates, and not everyone may stick around forever. Obviously, you'll find some Tibetan looking stuff at FGS, either on sale or display. Incidentally, the place where I was staying there had a lovely framed Kalacakra tenfold powerful symbol.

JKhedrup wrote:As long as one follows the rules and is not belligerent, I don't see how one can be considered a burden. Are ESL students a burden? No, they simply have different needs.

Well, having different needs can be a burden if the resources or skills to meet it are not present at hand. In fact, based upon what I have heard and seen, it wasn't always successful, so it is probably a burden at times. But interpretations of what burden is differs from culture to culture, as below.

JKhedrup wrote:In terms of the issue of cultural accomodation, when localization is a stated primary goal of several of the organizations, one could be forgiven for thinking there might be some level of cultural accomodation.

The definition of localization that I've heard first-hand is pretty far from a notion of cultural accommodation - more like localizing to the needs of the immigrant community. Certainly there seems to have been a very ambitious goal in the past. Perhaps it became too onerous. I think we should try to be understanding with regards to what is deemed easy or difficult by people of different cultures. In some cultures, what seems to be common sense or just a simple task, is just so troublesome to the mind that one can't even consider it. I have a friend who lived in Japan who said that one of the issues he had with working there was that he couldn't get anything changed when it was difficult. In fact, the issue he was referring to was an unpathed path from the school he was teaching at to the road, which dipped down in the middle. When it rained the middle of the path would get muddy and everyone would walk around the school with mud on their shoes and socks. My friend decided to mention his idea of building a small bridge over this tiny dip in the path to another teacher, who was Japanese. The response he got was one that you simply wouldn't find in the west, the task was just incomprehensible because it would cause too much trouble and take time and disrupt people's routine. He said something like "no no no, that would just be too hard, we just can't do that." Regardless, my friend brought this up at a meeting, at which the other Japanese teacher had a look on his face of extreme shock, he could not believe he would make such a laborious request of his principle. The principle said the same thing, "that would just be too hard, we don't mind mopping the floor." My friend knew enough about Japanese culture at that point to know that he couldn't argue once his superior had made up his mind - it was final and you couldn't negotiate any further. This is simply the way westerners approach the question of CSL and localization - "Oh it's just so easy, all you need to do is ... ABC." But, it doesn't work that way, and we mustn't expect it to. They won't change or u-turn what has been decided upon and established - but if a new initiative is set up, it may get something new done. For instance, if at the construction of that school, the architect included a bridge, then there would be no problem. As far as FGS goes, they manage to initiate and accomplish massive tasks. But as far as localization goes, this was just a byword: there was never built a monastery for western monastics, and IBPS is really just for laity. So fundamentally, there's little reason to expect accomplishment.

JKhedrup wrote:Your points would hold true if promises were not made to such people.

Obviously I can't address specific issues, I only know what you've told me. I'm as offended by such rudeness as you are. I also don't know what promises were made and broken. As for westerners, which is what this is about, in 2014, we have every opportunity to inform ourselves, and no excuse to go into such situations completely duped, insulted, and betrayed.

JKhedrup wrote:The fundamental problem is overseas people are still being actively recruited, while their is sn entrenched attitude that any discussion of these issues is ungrateful criticism. It is tragic because the resources are there to allow the efforts to be successful, and I think Chinese Buddhism is a fascinating and rich tradition.

I don't know anything about recruits or recruiting - at least from the western side, which is what this is about, I've never seen or heard of it done. I've only been given the advice of caution, prudence, preparation, and to spend years developing viable alternative options. Never have I seen enthusiastic recruitment - if anything, the furthest from - dissuasion and caution, to be careful what one is getting into. Ladhaki nuns aren't westerners, and whatever they experienced at whatever time in the past with regards to recruitment seems to be non-existent in the west. As far as Africans go, I have no idea what the situation is in Africa, except that there are at least 4 Congolese monks currently at FGS Taiwan and one in Congo-Brazzaville, the company of whom I enjoyed very much and with whom I was able to practice a bit of French. Yes, I agree there is great potential as far as resources go but.. you know it is all "very hard." I really don't think we should expect too much out of Chinese Buddhist organisations as far as westerners go, and I know for certain that by and large they really are not making irresponsible promises to westerners in 2014 - individual experiences may vary.

Active recruitment takes place in Africa, India and several South East Asian countries. None of the recruits last long- out of over a hundred African monks, one is in an official role at the monastery.

How long had the Congolese monks you met been at the college?.

Similarly, most Vietnamese , Indians, Cambodians and Cambodians have also left.

The reason I mention this is to prevent blaming spoiled, entitled Westerners as the problem when efforts with foreigners from very diverse backgrounds have been very unsuccessful.

Last edited by JKhedrup on Wed Apr 16, 2014 6:43 am, edited 1 time in total.

In order to ensure my mind never comes under the power of the self-cherishing attitude,I must obtain control over my own mind. Therefore, amongst all empowerments, the empowerment that gives me control over my mind is the best,and I have received the most profound empowerment with this teaching.-Atisha Dipamkarabrtsal ba'i bkhra drin

Why I get frustrated is all that is required to research the solutions to the very evident problems is humility enough from both sides to sit down to an honest dialogue.

Most of the problems are solvable but for some reason even admitting there are problems seems tremendously painful.

I have lived in Asian cultures for over 10 years I am not clueless. But I am baffled by the status quo in this case.

In order to ensure my mind never comes under the power of the self-cherishing attitude,I must obtain control over my own mind. Therefore, amongst all empowerments, the empowerment that gives me control over my mind is the best,and I have received the most profound empowerment with this teaching.-Atisha Dipamkarabrtsal ba'i bkhra drin

This thread is about westerners. There is no active recruitment of western monastics that I know of with FGS. Besides, all this other noise about what they do elsewhere is hearsay, and not wholly trustworthy - obviously people who leave will be biased against them. It would need to be corroborated by Huifeng or someone who is in the organisation. But I already said that if such rudeness did occur, I would be put off by it also - but that's purely hypothetical, I can't admit what I don't know about . But I should say that I am a bit put off by your rudeness too: ad hominems and swearing just because someone doesn't agree?

As for trying to change, like I said, it isn't easy. I don't think we should pretend that it is a walk in the park and just a matter of sitting down in dialogue (as if that hasn't happened). As far as I can tell, where they have tried, they have succeeded (like I said, there never was a monastic training center in the west for FGS, nor active recruitment of western monastics). If you want to help them, go ahead and join them.

Well, I've said it before, both in public and private, that FGS has not done a very good job at localization at all. All three of the other main contributors to this thread have heard me say it, both here, and also in personal meat-space discussion. I've met you all, on several occasions.

Not only have I said it here, to the so-called "Western" side of the discussion, but I have on many occasions raised it with other members of the FGS community. Since last year, I have made it a more deliberate element of what I am trying to do Dharma wise. Why did I wait so long?, one may ask. The reason is simple: in order to criticize and make it constructive, I feel it is far more effective to do so from the point of view of "We have a problem", than "You have a problem".

I've been working on four main elements within FGS, 1. FGS itself; 2. FGU where I am mainly based; 3. Hsi Lai Temple in LA (and related UWest); and 4. Nan Tien Temple out of Sydney. In particular, working with the weekend English language retreats at FGS and bringing them in with the new one month summer program the Fo Guang Buddhist Monastic Retreat, all conducted in English. At FGU, working with the MA Buddhist Studies (English track). At Hsi Lai and Nan Tien, not just UWest and the new Nan Tien Institute, but I have been pushing the Abbot and Abbess respectively about re-starting the Buddhist Colleges there. Recently I have been raising such issues regularly, and using whatever means to have improvements take place. As I say, I can do this from my present position, because I know what is really going on within the organization, rather than trying to figure it out from second or third hand sources and guessing the rest.

Now, I try not to be someone who gets all gushy over a little thing, or make over exaggerated claims. So, the successes that I have I usually don't talk about them much. Faith in the laws of cause and effect mean that I am confident about what will or will not happen, whether I brag about successes or complain about failures. However, I am just one monk. One monastic out of about 1,200+. And ethnically / culturally speaking, am less than a 0.5% minority.

I am quite willing to discuss these things, but I do have some principles. First, is simple respect. Personal insults and foul language is inappropriate. Second, constructivity, working toward possible solutions, which also need to be practical. Third, participation. It's rather strange that one may wish to criticize and say do this or that, but what such efforts to do those things are suggested the same person doesn't want to help out. That's just criticism for the sake of criticism, rather than a sincere attempt to make improvements.

Now, that said, how is anyone else on this thread willing to help out with this problem? Or, is the real function of this thread something quite different indeed?

Since you mentioned it venerable, I will just say that, having taken part in one of the weekend retreats, they're very accessible and, at least for me, enjoyable. I can't comment on woodenfish/English monastic retreats, but having taken part in a Chinese monastic retreat, I can also say that was enjoyable. I found the efforts made to provide translation were really great, and to be honest I couldn't quite ask for anything more. Maybe I'm crazy, but I just liked it a lot, and had there been no translation, it wouldn't have made much difference to be honest. That's just because of the way I approach it: if there's a problem, I find the first place to check is my own attitude, my own expectations, and often if I adjust those, or keep track of and change those, there's not much more that needs adjustment outside. So, more or less, I'm happy with Chinese/Taiwanese Buddhism as it is. As far as Western Buddhism goes, FGS probably has just as much, or more potential than even long-existing Chinese Buddhist organisations in the west, and possibly even Tibetan organisations taken individually. I'll leave it to people who can actually do something to do it, but if one can help, one would do best to do so perhaps.

I respect you as a fellow monk and also as someone who managed to adapt to a completely different culture and even thrive. You are someone I feel I can speak to.

I am willing to have an honest discussion about these issues with relevant authorities in FGS but as I mentioned I worry anything seen as criticism would immediately cause offence.

It was mentioned above in a different culture one needs to examine one's expectations. I agree, and have been living with and working with Tibetans for a long time. I am not a close minded person regarding different cultures. But in terms of FGS, the experiences of attending a weeklong retreat or YAD gathering and living at a branch temple for 5 months and HQ for 7 (i am one of a handful of Westerners with that experience) are very different. Apples and oranges.

I don't remember swearing or making ad homs. Though ZL stated the story from the Ladakhi nuns could be untrue, I have no reason to doubt their honesty, they have nothing to gain by lying to me. These are senior ordained nuns, fluent in Chinese, English, Tibetan and Hindi. Educated kind and thoughtful people- i spent the better part of a week with them.The suggestion (not made by you) that they may have lied, as well as the serious issue of cultural chauvanism, are why I became heated. It feels like blaming the victim, and the easy dismissal if anyone's bad experiences is part of the reason progress cannot be made.

As I stated above, what saddens me most is these problems are solvable. But as ZL stated above, maybe the potential solutions are considered high-maintenance. Still, I am willing to try and speak with anyone interested. And I will not deny certainly my own personal faults are part of the equation here. But there are enough people with similar experiences to confirm to me they weren't the only factor.

I was contacted several years ago with an "exit survey" of sorts but never heard back.

You will notice in my posts I made general observations about TW, trying to avoid naming names. I also mentioned several barriers in Tibetan Buddhism and obstacles to women in Theravada.

I simply want the average joe (like me) protected from all the dificulties I experienced due to not knowing what I was getting into.

There is no outcome that would make me happier in all this than an improved environment for foreignets at FGS.

In order to ensure my mind never comes under the power of the self-cherishing attitude,I must obtain control over my own mind. Therefore, amongst all empowerments, the empowerment that gives me control over my mind is the best,and I have received the most profound empowerment with this teaching.-Atisha Dipamkarabrtsal ba'i bkhra drin

Zhen Li wrote: Besides, all this other noise about what they do elsewhere is hearsay, and not wholly trustworthy - obviously people who leave will be biased against them.

Nice way to divert criticism. Pretend it isn't valid.

You're implying that several senior nuns who are highly educated and committed to Dharma for life are basically lying. I also know a senior monk in Bodhgaya who told me a number of things about his interactions with FGS and Xingyun, a lot of which was shocking.

So here we have Khedrup and I bringing to the discussion some very serious concerns, and you pretend none of it is valid or worth considering. If anyone is biased it is you, a FGS sympathizer.

Huifeng wrote:Now, that said, how is anyone else on this thread willing to help out with this problem? Or, is the real function of this thread something quite different indeed?

For my part, I think FGS has demonstrated itself to be so irredeemably dishonest that I basically discourage people from having anything to do with it. That dubious "Buddha tooth" from a bogus "Kunga Rinpoche" and the fortune dumped into building that stupa complex takes the cake in modern Buddhist shenanigans (if anyone wants details see here). I've advised people against applying to Woodenfish. I've told Ladakhis here in India that they should cease sending their daughters to FGS. There are plenty of good options for Himalayan women nowadays in India and Nepal where they will be treated with respect. Even if FGS tried to open a western seminary I would still not trust it because FGS leadership in my mind is simply irredeemable.

I honestly don't think FGS is scrutinized more harshly than other organizations on the board. At the moment there are several critical threads on Tibetan Buddhism and history. FPMT has been critiqued, as well as Soka Gakkai and several Zen orders. This is the reality of internet communications.

How responsibke people respond to the criticism is a good indication as to whether any type of dialigue will lead to meaningful change.

I hope Ven. Hui Feng is successful in communicating the necessity of such dialogue to the FGS leadership. I am happy someone is trying.

If I see a true commitment to change, I will be able to recomnend FGS as a possibility to consider for potential ordinands. But I have yet to see the signs of true commitment and heard the only remaining Western nun at HQ in Gaohsiung recently left.

In order to ensure my mind never comes under the power of the self-cherishing attitude,I must obtain control over my own mind. Therefore, amongst all empowerments, the empowerment that gives me control over my mind is the best,and I have received the most profound empowerment with this teaching.-Atisha Dipamkarabrtsal ba'i bkhra drin