@Ruemere - more good analysis. I realised after I posted it might seem like I was inferring you were turned off by saying I wasn't. That wasn't my intent. Like I said, I agree with much of your analysis - I'm familiar with Numenera, but I found it not easy to "get into" as a new player. It might play easier once you are in and playing but what I'd dearly like to see from FMRPG is lots of concrete examples of play with options and variables explained - the PF Beginner Box did not have this.

Interesting that the art is a real winner for at least a few of us. The aesthetics are important to me, as much as the crunch.

Thanks for sharing.

Regarding the art. It's fresh, simple and conveys the 'true power resides within' message. The characters are the focus, not their stuff. One could argue that pointy hat guy looks kind of, well, let's settle for obvious, but given Sean's fair warning about video game inspirations, I'll chalk it up as fetish or homage type of the thing.

Design principles seem to follow modern tendencies with regard to unified class model (all classes use the same mechanics, with some f/x thrown in to preserve basic class differences). Blog posts appear to indicate that Sean attempts to shed specific subsystems.

Hard to tell anything yet, it feels like Arcana Evolved and 4E romancing each other with neither wanting to fully commit due to powerful shadowy influence of family patriarch (PFRPG).

Tentatively interested. Needs more passion and wonder to make me back it up.

Regards,
Ruemere

An interesting summation, and I agree up to a point, but it doesn't turn me off.

Personally, I'm glad to see structure kept for "classes" and a certain closeness kept to DnD/3.5/4e - I'm not fond of completely new mechanics all the time for everything. Boosts look like a nice resource option for limited power increase, and characters having at-will options (kinda like 4e from my limited experience of 4e and total lack of FMRPG experience) is something I think can increase "narrative power".

Dispensing with "realism" (crossbows!!!) is also something I like - personally my only hurdle with Gunslingers is having to track and pay for ammunition. I'd rather play them as
a Warlock...

As for passion, I guess that is a personal thing. I have seen Sean on the messageboards, argued with him a few times - he is obviously very engaged with the philosophy of game design, and FMRPG seems to be his passionate attempt to address things he feels could be made...different. How different it is or needs to be is up to each person to determine.

I'm not turned off either, merely not interested enough to commit.

Please allow me to elaborate a bit on the reasoning behind my opinion:

1. Sean is trying to get into very tightly packed market. Moreover, the presentation of the system makes it look like it is going to be really close to its esteemed predecessors. And so I look at his blog entries and measure them against his ideas:
- readied abilities? - work like a charm, already implemented in Arcana Evolved and 5E.
- simplified monster statblocks - 4E, Trailblazer, 5E, Swords and Wizardry
- retraining for all classes - PFRPG
- wands? - marginal issue, not really worth a blog entry

2. Stuff mentioned, but not revealed yet:
- Power moved from items to characters - already done by 13th Age, Fate, Dungeon World - I would really like to see Sean's take on this. This is something that really changes the way you play the game.

3. Important but not addressed so far:
- Magic has the answer to everything, Skills and Martials don't - Does Sean intend to tackle this issue or not?
- Compatibility - Does Sean plan to implement some level of compatibility or not?
- World changing magic - Fly, Teleport, Scry, Invisibility, Maze, Dimensional X (where X - most spells with Dimensional in their name), Magic items, Wish, Antimagic (I know, I read about this one), Curses, Magic Healing, Magic that Creates Items, Magic that Summons - This is Pandora box of Magic legacy - Are these items going to be replaced (see Arcana Evolved), tamed (see Eberron, Zeitgeist), removed (4E, 13th Age) or ?
- Full-attack actions and Multiaction rounds - disparity (and time-wasting) present when a character does long, tedious and boring things (iterative attacks) vs. moments of ownage (timestop, or just move/spell/quickened spell with a sugar effect on a top) - are we going to see something to that compares to 4E, Fate, Dungeon World or 13th Age?
- Prep time - the moment a GM realizes that he or she are going to spend days to put together an adventure to be played over the course of one session. - Seriously, this is something important for those of us, who have jobs, lives and are not retired yet :)

4. Altogether new toys:
- Narrative power in hands of PCs - Numenera, Fate, 13th Age - Ability to introduce new narrative powers into the game.
- New setting - Islands floating a sea of ether is nice, so how about some tips how w can go straight to the story? Remember Oldenhaller Contract from WFRP? And to make myself absolutely clear - I don't want 40 gods, 20 cities and elaborate maps. I would like to see conflict, corrupted NPCs, real and present dangers. For tips, check Numenera, the Strange, 13th Age and of course, the grand daddy of this approach, WFRP 1st edition.
- How long does it take to make a new character?

NOTE: I would like to emphasize that I expect Sean NOT to tackle all of these or most of these. These example only serve to point out why, with Five Moons looking dangerously similar to its predecessors, Sean's work seems very daunting (leaving me somewhat undecided).

I have had the privilege of reading Trailblazer, a most interesting take on d20 weaknesses (Keith Gersen's stuff also comes to my mind), but despite good stuff, it lost me when it made me add even more work to prep time. I have scavenged some of it, but I was not able to fully benefit.

5. The good stuff that makes me want to buy into Kickstarter so far:
- the art. It's very original.
- the prose. Sean knows how to put things into words.
- the small size of the crunch book. Sean knows how to be brief about stuff.

6. The stuff that would make me go boom with enthusiasm:
- mission/vision/goals - a short and well thought out executive summary of what we should expect and what is definitely out of scope. This is not a list of specific changes. This is not a list of "we're going to do this better than our predecessors". This is the list of what Sean loves about his new toy. The intro movie does contain some of these, but hey, I want some strong statements like "Expect to learn new rules in a single reading", "Your magician shall be able to fit his abilities on a single page", etc.
- a few words on setting - how do the adventurers fit the game world? This may be of some surprise to many, but actually this topic is seldom addressed. So, what makes the adventurers appear?
- a few words on the setting - do we get social strata? Magitech? Steampunkish? Stone Age?
What's the genre? And how are we going to support it? (horror - sanity, heroic fantasy - bags of hitpoints and hero points, etc)

----

I could go on. But generally, these are the things I look for before I back an RPG Kickstarter. And I backed quite a few.

Design principles seem to follow modern tendencies with regard to unified class model (all classes use the same mechanics, with some f/x thrown in to preserve basic class differences). Blog posts appear to indicate that Sean attempts to shed specific subsystems.

Hard to tell anything yet, it feels like Arcana Evolved and 4E romancing each other with neither wanting to fully commit due to powerful shadowy influence of family patriarch (PFRPG).

Tentatively interested. Needs more passion and wonder to make me back it up.

You worry too much. Unless there's already a secret project for 2nd edition, we are at least two years away - consider that the hit for the next GenCon is to be the Occult Adventurers... or something like that.

On the other hand, being vocal now about changes needed is good as it helps Paizo to learn, and hopefully manage your expectations.

Personally, I feel there's strong need for parallel Pathfinder product that would allow for more narrative style of gaming. Modern systems focus on making GM's side of screen have more to do with building a story than statblocks.

NOTE:
The opening post was not about creating a Pathfinder successor, but rather an alternative product line, to address the need for a simpler system with fewer design issues:

Captain Marsh wrote:

I want them to earn their next pile of bucks by producing a streamlined, narrative-rich version of Pathfinder.

Not just a "beginner's box," but an actual parallel rule structure that exists comfortably side-by-side with the more byzantine version of Pathfinder that's come into existence.

And my comment would be: why not go there? The time it takes to fully prepare an adventure or browse through options for NPCs or PCs grows longer with each new supplement. Judging by the design issues of mythic products, or the recent ACG, designers get lost themselves from time to time now.

The ban-hammer method, the PFS-legal restrictions, etc, can go only so far until people get tired.

----

I'll give a few examples, 13th Age and True20 based, how the game can become much, much simpler, while still retaining compatibility:

1. Make character damage, skill bonuses and saves a function of character class and level (i.e. a hero built around boxing people to death does the same damage as the one using two handed greataxe).
Note: It's already happening - just check Brawler class from ACG.

2. Ditch, or make cosmetic all spell buffs, magic item bonuses. Let the power come from within the character, not from their items.

3. Decrease class list to the two archetypes: the specialist and the caster. At each level, the archetype picks three abilities (offensive, defensive, utility) and assigns priority to each.

Do you want to play a tough warrior?
As a specialist, pick defensive stuff first, damage second, and appropriate weapon/armor/tactic/feat utilities.
Use melee, ranged and defense options.

Do you want to be a crafty, yet, backstabbing rogue?
As a specialist, pick utility first, damage second, defensive third.
Use expert and melee options.

Would you like to be a controller mage?
As a caster, pick utility first, damage second, defensive third.
Use arcane caster options.

Would you like to be a protective cleric?
As a caster, pick utility first, defensive second, damage third.
Use divine caster options.

----

This way the game would become very streamlined (picking abilities at the level-up, no need to worry about gear or specific spells, or spells). If the options would adhere to general guidelines on character power, the characters would be still compatible with d20 system, but all complicated stuff would be gone.

NOTE: It's just a proposal, a proof that such concept can be made into a working product.

Interesting. I'd like to ask you a question about Numenera - I've been bothered a little, that the same resource is used for hitpoints and powering up various abilities. Didn't your players feel penalized for this?

Secondly, I have experienced similar issue - my players at some point refused to read PFRPG supplements when making characters. Since then I have switched to 13th Age (a d20 variant with a few narrative mechanics, and most certainly rules-light system). If you want to take a break from PFRPG, I would recommend it for a nice change of pace *.

Regards,
Ruemere

PS. * - 13th Age is not perfect. But it's quite simple, casters most certainly do not dominate the game (anyone can pick a Ritual Magic feat, and then, Buffy style, produce a magic effect after several hours of intense research; combat spells are mostly limited to blasting; utility spells are very limited), the statblocks are sweet and simple, and conversion from PFRPG is quite easy (though you still need to address caster's superpowers).

Trying to build a 9th-level brawler and it is increasingly reminding me of the rogue, in that it's supposed to be a combat class, but it seems to be failing to do anything better than other combat classes out there.

Caron was lucky that there was no nearby caster to charm, sleep or blind her. However, had she been a ranger (sneak, maybe some ranks in perception) or barbarian (improved speed and combat ability), she would have stood a better chance.
No love for the fighters in rules nor fiction.

Regards,
Ruemere

PS. Liked the story, would have liked it more had Caron had some better options at her disposal. For ideas, please refer to Brotherhood of Wolves.

for those of you who live outside the US and in Europe do you believe most are waiting for action from United States? Are your leaders going to do anything such as speak up at UN? Do you think US sanctions will work? If the US believes in any way that Russia is behind this then why haven't we done things such as closed embassy's in Russia? Is there any outrage of what happened with the plane?

This is politics. Sanity, common sense or fairness need not apply.

All I can say, as a citizen of neighboring country is that I support Ukrainian government in their fight against so-called separatists (too many of them come from Russia, use high grade Russian weapons and exhibit military tactics), though I strongly prefer peaceful solution.

Sadly, as long as Russia keeps meddling, hope for peace is slim. The "separatists" keep getting supplies (gear and soldiers) and so the war can continue.

Unchaining Fighter should mean , IMHO:
- removing dependency on magic items, for example: ability to turn nonmagic weapons into temporarily magical ones (ditto for armors)
- ability to recover from nasty magic and nonmagic effects
- power to circumvent magic-only advantages (invisibility is 2nd level spell only, but it is just as effective against 20th level fighter)
- skill points
- support for dexterity and constitution based viable builds (for example, ability to base attack and damage bonuses on these statistics)
- support for gaining tactical advantage through use of intelligence and charisma based action rolls
- more defensive and offensive options... that are available at lower levels than critical mastery, and that stay relevant longer than combat maneuvers

While I agree that the book may have benefited from more editing, one has to remember that it's mechanics and GM that make a game.

That's why I chose a different world (the original was too logical, too artificial) and allowed for much more horizontal advancement for class progression (I built skill conversion system for hundreds of class abilities from the source game... This allows everyone to mix and match combat options to their heart content).

I feel also that real strengths of the system are in:
- rigid and balanced combat rules
- freeform magic for everyone outside of combat
- class balance... class background skill means that fighters no longer need to be dumb, mooks work better than 4e minions, statblock takes one-twelfth of a page while it can still get pretty complicated and I can decompose it back to base stats
- fewer rolls
- damage scales with level and class abilities, the role of the equipment is reduced... This means that epic paragon can choke a worm for damage close to the one he could do with +3 spear
- yes, this means that magic items may become inconsequential...

And so on. My players are currently at champion levels, leading a huge number of people away from their doomed homeland (for those who care, this is somewhat changed storyline of Prophecies campaign) toward uncertain fate in the traditionally hostile lands of Kryta, and they are about to embark on a mission of clearing pass in Shiverpeaks. And they love it.

We really need a new version of that video, with a bunch of people trying to figure out if the wizard is casting vanilla magic missile, errated magic missile, essentials magic missile or errated essentials magic missile. ;)

Or cast a dazing one, but that would break the camera

I'm hoping to switch, my chums are a bit mixed due to how much they have spent on PF. I am nearly 50 now and I want my high magic fantasy to be a bit simpler and faster.

Give 13th Age a read. It may be the book you need. And thanks to the rules, it's easy to pick up or convert to.

Already switched to 13th Age (custom world based on Guild Wars with some special rules to bring over skill set and magic). Pathfinder is fine but I got burned out a bit (high level gameplay is tiring, among other things) - still retaining my subscriptions though, for the sheer quality of Paizo products.

IMHO, I would like Paizo designers to release Pathfinder 2.0 based on 13th Age system (and expanded toward 30th level).

One thing more: no OGL, no game from WotC. Sorry folks, but I don't like living in walled-off garden.

There's Faces of Tarnished Souk Kickstarter going on. This is an incredible resource for mining characters to wrap whole campaigns around.
Each of the NPCs comes with intermediate statblocks, so you can have them earlier, use them as recurring opponents or file away serial numbers to use them for other purposes.
The NPCs, in addition to memorable concepts, backstories and gear, are also built to be really challenging in combat.

But they wouldn't need to create Scarred Lands for Pathfinder from scratch... Only update existing d20 materials to it.

They might make their own system though.

There is a lot to convert. Literally years of work of fiendishly creative freelancers.

That's why I would prefer them to start with something smaller, not steeped in system-mastery like Pathfinder (13th Age's Archmage Engine is much more entry-friendly) and with a gripping story (like Enemy Within).

For many reasons, I do not see Scarred Lands flying under Pathfinder banner (and system) right now, so I will remain cautiously optimistic (or even close to pessimistic right now).
IMHO, the best we can hope now for is for Onyx Path to lease Scarred Lands licenses to an established RPG company.

Regards,
Ruemere

PS. For those who would like to check it out, this is Onyx Path publishing schedule for 2013-2014.
No evidence of d20 experience whatsoever.
Being a former Vampire Dark Ages GM, I would say that they produce highly stylish WoD / Trinity stuff.

I think that the source of your issue is discrepancy between ability first sentence and actual ability meaning.

Under standard logic "no alignment" would render any type of alignment-based comparison or requirement meaningless. Therefore, your character would rather fail to meet any alignment requirements.
Consequently:
1. Divine Source - since no domain can match your alignment, you cannot select any.
2. Your cleric would not be able to be within one step of deity's alignment, because your cleric has no alignment, just like you cannot measure distance between here and nowhere.
3. Your PC would not be a valid target for atonement, because your PC's alignment is not opposed to caster's alignment. Again, it's a case of attempting to measure distance between here and nowhere.

HOWEVER, the actual meaning of the ability can be paraphrased as follows:
- your alignment matches any comparison or requirement in the most favorable for you way
- the only way for you lose anything due to mis-aligned action, is that when someone else can judge morality of your action and consequently declare you not eligible

As per this interpretation:
1. Divine Source - select any domains you want. Good and Evil, Chaos and Law - it's all the same to you.
2. Your cleric is always within 1 step of deity's alignment, UNLESS the deity (or its properly empowered representative) declares you're not.
3. Your PC is always a valid target for atonement if the atonement is something your PC would like to be a target of.

IMHO, the first sentence should be stricken out, or replaced with "Your alignment matches any requirements and restrictions, as long as you deem this favorable."

[...]As for "is a police state", that depends very much on what your definition is. We're definitely more of one than we were 20 or 30 years ago. Probably less of one than we were much of the time before that. It also depends on where you live and what color your skin is. Obviously the surveillance has increased with technology, but that's not the only marker.

But calling us one also diminishes the term when applied to actual police states. [...]

Guantanamo. Imprisoning citizens of different country (possibly countries) while denying them right to due legal actions. Confirmed cases of torture.

This is one terrifying proof how easy it is to quickly establish an instrument of repression. After all, the facilities can be adapted to allegedly criminal individuals of any type.

Note: I am not claiming nor considering US to be a "police state". I would however urge to remember Bradley Manning & Wikileaks, and Edward Snowden, as symptoms of issues that should be officially addressed and cleaned up. Though, if I were to speculate, the case of Agent Orange bodes ill for any reasonable resolution (hint: major financial compensation and official acknowledgement of blame for Agent Orange victims would be a start).

I have just began my test campaign in Guild Wars 1 setting using 13th Age rules. To facilitate painless rules transfer, here are the hard and fast rules, quite possibly applicable to your situation.

1. There are three arcane caster specializations (applies to: Sorcerer, Wizard and other arcane classes, be it full arcane or half-progression): Elementalist, Mesmer, Necromancer.

2. All specializations have access to all spells as per class standards, however in order to be actually to use them, the spells need to be converted as per class specific template. If the conversion is not possible, the spell is beyond the reach of a given specialization.

3. Mesmer spell template:

Limitations and changes:
- your spells can affect only living creatures (note: under GW1 setting, the undead, elementals are living beings)
- damage type of all spells is converted to psychic damage
- saves against your spells are always against Will (at GM's discretion, Reflex can be used against visible attacks; note that this means that Phantasmal Killer requires two Will saves)
- spells which inflict force damage or allow for telekinetic manipulation may be allowed, however they should take a slot at least two spell levels higher (that means that magic missile either inflicts psychic damage or requires 2 levels higher to inflict force damage)

Benefits:
Upon completion of full rest, Mesmer can select one of the special abilities from the list below. Once the Mesmer reaches 11th level, two benefits can be selected.
- Fast Casting - as long as you have access to spell slots of appropriate level, you can use Quickened Spell feat (1+Charisma bonus) times per day. Additionally, you can apply this feat to spells cast from magic items (potions, wands, staves, rings).
- Domination - +2 to spell penetration or spell save DC (your choice at the moment of casting)
- Inspiration - at the end of the encounter, you may recover one of the spells cast during the encounter.
- Illusions - at the time of the casting, you may attach a Bestow Curse or beneficiary spell to any of your illusions (use a spell slot for the effect spell as normal). Attempting to dispel the illusion spell, interact with the illusion spell or pass through the spell area causes the creature to become an automatic target of the spell.

I would like to say that I am running this module right now for my players (with some modifications) and we're having a great time.

In case someone wants to use it, I would like to recommend the following (spoilered due to mature themes and obvious spoilers):

Spoiler:

- I have added a village near the lake, where a few dozens of dretch-like humanoids toil maintaining a veritable army of inactive Retrievers.

- there is a constant threat of creeping dawn (the dawn here brings a great fire which consumes all creatures, only to let them respawn upon the coming of the night).

- make the succubi talkative. Let them brag, be friendly and above everything... let them enjoy pain, and even death.
One of the PCs, a paladin, freaked out when a Shantak-riding Sister of Vigilance sheathed her weapon and let him kill her profusely thanking him for the honor and ultimate pleasure.

- all succubi wear mortification devices (enchanted scale mail shirts +2, which tear into wearer causing intense pain, and in case of these succubi, ecstasy). Emphasizing their joy at their own suffering with every stretch of their bodies.

- note: Sisters of Vigilance look like emaciated skeletal hags - years spent bathing in radiation and void of space made them look really unappealing.

- make the alu-fiends also death-flirting - a half orc barbarian had its moment of doubt, when a maid forced him (charm + suggestion) to start beating and strangling her. True-Seeing users tried to convince him that he hurt a demon (Alu-Fiends in my games look totally human thanks to personal illusions, and illusion piercing means reveal them as having gaping dark holes in places of eyes and mouths), but the guy had its shock.

By the time the PCs left the shrine, they were so afraid to inflict violence, that they never even thought to strike out at Euphrixia, and with sheer gratitude accepted her help in getting to the next stage.
Consequently a battle with bugs from space came as something of a relief. Let's what they think when they get to the real part of the Ring of Agony.

IMHO, lack of cardinal directions forces you to rely on relative methods of description (like "this exit is in front of you, the other one is to your left"). I liked the way it supplements the feeling of disorientation.

I have run similar one-shots (similar by concept, not by execution) and never really cared about actual spread of rooms (though I let the PCs draw their maps). Of course, to mitigate eventual cartographic frustration, the dungeons were quite simple.

Consequently, the maps were only important with regard to the content of places of challenge, not the housing :)

If I were to complain All I can say at this point, it's that's my home city analog, Krakova, has been given the crest based on our cultural competitor, Warsaw. Why couldn't you give something more neutral? It's as bad as using derogative term for old lady as a name for NPC in Tales of Old Margreve (well, I know that some parents have a twisted sens of humor and named their son Dick Assman, but still...).