On 14/02/2013 kuu wrote:>Despite having a history reaching back more than 50 years in this country>(and longer elsewhere) does Trad climbing need its proponents to do a better>Sell Job in getting the message across to newcomers to the recreation?>

Kuu, you talk as if "trad climbing" was a living breathing thing, needing proponents to sell it. The sport has changed and grown a lot - sport climbing, gym climbing, bouldering are all loosely "climbing" today. Some of us will always continue to climb naturally protected routes and consider that to be "real" climbing, while also perhaps having a great deal of fun in the other disciplines. Many newer climbers will perhaps never get beyond the gym. For me that is no issue, nor are the growth in numbers of bolted routes - there are still endless virgin walls in the Wolgan (for example) if I need to get away from that. And if the masses are overflowing some grubby sport cave I'll never be able to get of the ground on, so much the better for me.

My only preference is that people don't gridbolt naturally protectable lines, or retro any naturally climbed lines. Other than that, I don't want to "sell" natural climbing to anyone else, I don't mind what they do.

On 15/02/2013 technogeekery wrote:>>Kuu, you talk as if "trad climbing" was a living breathing thing, needing>proponents to sell it. The sport has changed and grown a lot - sport climbing,>gym climbing, bouldering are all loosely "climbing" today. Some of us will>always continue to climb naturally protected routes and consider that to>be "real" climbing, while also perhaps having a great deal of fun in the>other disciplines. Many newer climbers will perhaps never get beyond the>gym. For me that is no issue, nor are the growth in numbers of bolted routes>- there are still endless virgin walls in the Wolgan (for example) if I>need to get away from that. And if the masses are overflowing some grubby>sport cave I'll never be able to get of the ground on, so much the better>for me. >
Thanks for your efforts to educate me regarding the breadth of climbing nowadays ;-)

At one time or another I have engaged in all those subsets of the climbing experience you list and also done a small amount of competition climbing.

Yes, I started climbing at a time when dinosaurs roamed the earth but I have retired my manilla rope and sandshoes and happily embraced the modern substitutes. There are few pieces of today's equipment that I don't own/use, the most notable missing item being a power drill. I manage to get by.

>My only preference is that people don't gridbolt naturally protectable>lines, or retro any naturally climbed lines. Other than that, I don't want>to "sell" natural climbing to anyone else, I don't mind what they do.

On 15/02/2013 kuu wrote:>>On 15/02/2013 technogeekery wrote:>>My only preference is that people don't gridbolt naturally protectable>>lines, or retro any naturally climbed lines. Other than that, I don't>want>>to "sell" natural climbing to anyone else, I don't mind what they do.>>I'm with you in that respect.

Ok, Neil, so you did a little 'research', here we go again (Did someone mention 'cognitive bias'?). . .

It's actually meant as a subtle (though it would seem perhaps too subtle) dig at those who would prefer it on rings - it is bolted not that differently to the gear possibilties to further make the point . . .
It was an area I was actively involved in developing at the time - it is meant as a bit of a statement - it has mandatory climbing now rather than 'aid' rings - it has to be climbed, not dogged - other probably would have ringed it differently . . .
It is in the midst of a mostly ring-bolted crag, as an 'obligatory' trad route. It not like I ringed a potential trad line at an established trad cliff near a classic trade route (like you at NarrowNeck) it wasn't an easy line that someone else was looking at that I took instead of the (shitty) sublime line I was bolting . .

But your personal 'black and white' view of what is grey sometimes contributes to the less informeds situation . . .
Ahh that old CB again - you certainly have all the hallmarks of a 'bolting zealot' - given your activities on rock, and on line, and in the media - do I go around enhancing placements to make trad lines, do I run a 'Cleaner Cliffs' web presence (yet?). . .
Yes I have fundamental beliefs regarding climbing, I have the courage of my convictions and am prepared to state them at times, in the hope of practicing and refining them, and to remind myself of what I am actually doing when I don't. Some would call that ethics . . .

And I can certainly understand Kevs angle here - All that the Safer Cliffs talks about is 'bolts' - there is almost no mention of 'natural protection', and then there is very little discussion or support/promotion for it's preference . . .

For the record - I generally support people who wish to remove unnecessary and unwarranted bolts (barring historical significance) and I also generally respect people who wish to de-bolt atrocities, (and for the less informed - it's not a very big list) . . .

On 15/02/2013 Macciza wrote:> All that the Safer Cliffs>talks about is 'bolts' - there is almost no mention of 'natural protection',>and then there is very little discussion or support/promotion for it's>preference . . .

Perhaps now is a good time for Safer Cliffs to engage in the promotion, discussion & advocacy of removable climbing anchors.
I don't really know the background to this, but I know the Safer Cliffs icon looks very industrial, which triggers "drills & hardware" in my mind.

Having been to Stannage recently and seen the ZERO tolerance ethic there, it's safe to say that enough internal discussion can change/influence behaviour.

Although my recent poll seemed to indicate the most active users on Chocky are also happy to use trad & almost all the responses to Neils question to sport climbers were from mixed/trad climbers - there are definitely those out there who are terrified of trad gear, think it's for crazy solo climbing types. I know, I've met them. They look at trad gear like it's some kind of dangerous drug.

SO maybe whoever is behind Safer Cliffs could do some work on "what's a trad cliff" "how 'safe' is gear?" or "why don't we bolt every cliff?"

On 15/02/2013 martym wrote:>On 15/02/2013 Macciza wrote:>> All that the Safer Cliffs>>talks about is 'bolts' - there is almost no mention of 'natural protection',>>and then there is very little discussion or support/promotion for it's>>preference . . .>>Perhaps now is a good time for Safer Cliffs to engage in the promotion,>discussion & advocacy of removable climbing anchors.>I don't really know the background to this, but I know the Safer Cliffs>icon looks very industrial, which triggers "drills & hardware" in my mind.

Sigh...

SAFER CLIFFS WAS ONLY RESPONSIBLE FOR REPLACEMENT OF OLD FIXED HARDWARE.

It is not an Access Fund. It is is not VCC Cliffcare. It is not the Sierra Club. It is not the UIAA. There are other way more organized groups that are involved in the big picture view of the climbing enviroment and ethics - and I am happy to support them. The fact is that Safer Cliffs is nothing - it's a merely a name, an old website and a forum on this website for people with real names who don't want to resort to personal attacks. There is no head office, meetings, official spokesmen or any such guff. Think of it as a generic word for rebolting.... but without the word bolt. To attack Safer Cliffs is to attack nothing. Safer Cliffs can't come to the rescue of trad climbing. In fact I don't even know who pays the hosting fees anymore - possibly someone in Queensland.

>The fact is that Safer Cliffs is nothing>- it's a merely a name, an old website and a forum on this website for>people with real names who don't want to resort to personal attacks. There>is no head office, meetings, official spokesmen or any such guff. Think>of it as a generic word for rebolting.... but without the word bolt. To>attack Safer Cliffs is to attack nothing

That's how all of these illuminati organisations deflect attention, we're onto you guys though.........I've even figured out your secret handshake (hint: there's a reach-around involved)

Great - thanks Kuu. Yes, I agree that education is the key. I taught a grade 26 sport climber to climb trad on my recent trip to NRG, i don't think she had ever had the opportunity before since her entire friends just climbed in gyms or sport crags. It took a but of effect to convince her but by the end I the week she was loving it. Not sure she has done any more since she came home though!

Kevin:
I don't like the way you have intentionally or otherwise smeared the name of safercliffs in the process of encouraging discussion, I think that it is disrespectful to the hundreds of hours of work by volunteers who were contributing so positively to the community.

Given your tremendous (and much appreciated) history of volunteer work on behalf of the climbing community, you'd have been in my top five people least likely to have such an error of judgement (imo).

On 15/02/2013 hotgemini wrote:>Kevin:>I don't like the way you have intentionally or otherwise smeared the name>of safercliffs in the process of encouraging discussion, I think that it>is disrespectful to the hundreds of hours of work by volunteers who were>contributing so positively to the community.>>Given your tremendous (and much appreciated) history of volunteer work>on behalf of the climbing community, you'd have been in my top five people>least likely to have such an error of judgement (imo).>>-Adam.>
I did not read it that way.
The original post starts as;>One of the, I assume, unintended consequences of the emergence and promotion of Safer Cliffs
... I take this as kuu is dealing with the 'assumed' spin-off effect.
Regardless of spin-off origin, the issue he raises about trad seemingly needing to refind it's place amongst many modern climbing perceptions is valid.
☺

Because we know that there are people who will use any possible excuse to attack initiatives like SaferCliffs, I believe we need to do everything we can to avoid giving them ammunition.

So starting a thread linking the good works of SaferCliffs to a perceived 'decline' in the ability of climbers or other such things can only serve to damage the organisation.

Even the wording "...I assume, unintended..." implies that Kevin is leaving the option open that this outcome was in fact intended by the poor bastards slogging into crags with 50kg worth of rebolting gear and spending a day getting covered in sweat, dirt and glue when they could have just as easily been 'getting their name in the guide' by bolting new routes or for far less effort, spent a pleasant day just going rockclimbing.

Whilst I acknowledge the points you're raising Mr. M9, even taking them into account, I would still have expected better from Mr Westren.

I agree with all of your sentiments and many people who have climbed with me will have heard my sermons about my concerns over the absolute faith so many climbers blindly put in any fixed hardware, especially if it is stainless.

If you'd started this same discussion, without the references to Safercliffs, I'd have been happy to support your views and discuss the topic at great length.

As I said, I was tremendously disappointed to see this coming from someone for whom I had so much respect.

Given that most people are introduced to climbing in a completely different manner these days than 20+ years ago there will be a substantive difference in their perceptions and influences.

The majority of climbers are now introduced via Gyms and actually fearfully lead their first climbs and take their falls on bolted routes in the gym, often on their first 'lead'. The assumption of safety with regards to gear is based on the bolts in gyms (which have to have at least some engineered capacity). Many of the more 'experienced' climbers that they chat with give them impressions of climbing outdoors, particularly the unreliability of gear. I have marvelled at this over many years. The grumpy old 'tradmasters' generally dont talk to anyone (again based on observation). Gyms also foster the progression by numbers mentality as the next challenge in the gym is a number grade, not any of the other associated climbing experiences.

In the mists of times long past people usually were taken out by mentors or went on trips with other groups (eg Universities). Bolts were few, generally on harder routes and required hangers to be placed on them. Gear was more rudimentary and sticky rubber was much less affordable and not as sticky. Due to the pure weight of numbers and the system of introduction to climbing, far fewer people were climbing. The 'old' system can not possibly mentor the number of people out climbing these days.

These groups therefore often have different expectations of the climbing experience. How you 'SELL' the climbing on gear attitude should be based on alligning the message more with the expectations of the other group. Sending some holier than though raving bearded lunatic to them to 'SELL' the experience will never work. It is also unlikely that you will be able to sell it to the majority of that group (particularly given that my observed turnover is about 5 years on average for someone introduced through the gyms).

On 15/02/2013 hotgemini wrote:>>......the poor bastards>slogging into crags with 50kg worth of rebolting gear and spending a day>getting covered in sweat, dirt and glue when they could have just as easily>been 'getting their name in the guide' by bolting new routes or for far>less effort, spent a pleasant day just going rockclimbing.>
Fark me, it's St. Adam, the martyr of the drill.........being a bit melodramatic, aren't we?

I do my share of crag maintenance too mate, but this attitude shits me. I do it because I feel like it, no one owes me for it and I don't get crag ownership in return. If you feel like a pleasant day of climbing, just go climbing. Don't choose to do some work then bitch about how hard it is and how wonderful you are for doing it. We're all fallible, some people doing S.C.A. work will fuch up some of the time. When I fuch up and my cleaning, or re-enforcing, or trundling, or devegetating, or rebolting, or anything is not to other people's liking, I hope to hear about it and am sure that we can work something out. If you want to place yourself (and your ridiculous organisation) beyond reproach, you're turning into another Mitch!

Also, if your pack weighs 50 fuching kilos, you're doing it wrong! One of my friends has a pimped kit for rebolting multipitch routes whilst climbing, fits in a daypack and weighs less than 10kg.

On 15/02/2013 Will_P wrote:>Is there an assumption that introducing more people to trad climbing is>a good thing here? [That's a genuine question, BTW]

And it's a good question.

Personally, I'm happy to find I have a crag to myself. I'm equally happy to share with another likeminded person/team and converse, socialise, et cetera.

I guess the main concern that led me to start this topic (now a flame war) was the thought that some (most?) people entering the recreation these days are not aware of the Trad option. And to be fair, probably most of them would not go down that path even knowing it existed.

Essentially, I think it is up to "Trad" climbers to promote their approach to climbing rather than grizzle about the activities of bolters.