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2. The Fr. Brooks "athletic entertainment ban" is symbolic of other decisions. That decision fits into a category we'll call the "internal tension between practical secular governance decision-making to keep HC competitive on a broad scale while maintaining its commitment to its Jesuit tradition and leadership."

3. Maintaining a competitive niche as the elite Catholic liberal arts college may be a marketing challenge greater than the other PL institutions face.

And while we're at it..... These objective factoids underscore how ham-handed and counter-productive Sader87's narrative has been promoting the PL as the catalyst for HC's ( athletic ) problems. I truly believe Sader87 is a devoted HC alum who wants to promote his alma mater. He couldn't have done a worse job as an HC ambassador on this board.

The NCAA APR awards came out today. The Fr.Brooks' approach does appear to have succeeded at Holy Cross. I note Lehigh and Bucknell are also there without a calamitous impact on sports. The two are mot mutually exclusive. The difference,I agree, is the policies implemented by the colleges to achieve athletically and academically.

Re: Patriot League 2018 - way way way to early

Originally Posted by RichH2

The NCAA APR awards came out today. The Fr.Brooks' approach does appear to have succeeded at Holy Cross. I note Lehigh and Bucknell are also there without a calamitous impact on sports. The two are mot mutually exclusive. The difference,I agree, is the policies implemented by the colleges to achieve athletically and academically.

I'm showing Fordham, Lafayette and Georgetown for '16 - '17 from the PL. Where am I missing HC, Lehigh and Bucknell? Only asking because of the multitude of tweets I saw about Fordham yesterday about this. Genuinely curious - not throwing stones.

Re: Patriot League 2018 - way way way to early

I'm showing Fordham, Lafayette and Georgetown for '16 - '17 from the PL. Where am I missing HC, Lehigh and Bucknell? Only asking because of the multitude of tweets I saw about Fordham yesterday about this. Genuinely curious - not throwing stones.

Sport

School

State

Academic Year

Football FCS (2010 and later)

Brown University

RI

2016-2017

Football FCS (2010 and later)

Columbia University-Barnard College

NY

2016-2017

Football FCS (2010 and later)

Cornell University

NY

2016-2017

Football FCS (2010 and later)

Dartmouth College

NH

2016-2017

Football FCS (2010 and later)

Fordham University

NY

2016-2017

Football FCS (2010 and later)

Georgetown University

DC

2016-2017

Football FCS (2010 and later)

Lafayette College

PA

2016-2017

Football FCS (2010 and later)

Princeton University

NJ

2016-2017

Football FCS (2010 and later)

University of New Hampshire

NH

2016-2017

Football FCS (2010 and later)

University of Pennsylvania

PA

2016-2017

Football FCS (2010 and later)

Villanova University

PA

2016-2017

Football FCS (2010 and later)

Yale University

CT

2016-2017

There are various APR awards given by the NCAA. I got the info from NCAA site. I note that NCAA tweeted out the awards also.

Re: Patriot League 2018 - way way way to early

Originally Posted by Colgate Raider Redux

2. The Fr. Brooks "athletic entertainment ban" is symbolic of other decisions. That decision fits into a category we'll call the "internal tension between practical secular governance decision-making to keep HC competitive on a broad scale while maintaining its commitment to its Jesuit tradition and leadership."

I think it was less about secular/Jesuit leadership and more about John Brooks.

Excepting a year in grad school in Pennsylvania, a year in Jesuit tertianship in Connecticut, and a year in Rome, Rev. Brooks literally spent his entire life in either Boston or Worcester, where his vision of "the academy", a community of scholars, was rooted in the small college traditions of New England.

His loyalty to HC is unquestioned, but he was not comfortable with the changes going on at BC and Georgetown (two schools that Holy Cross still considered its peers), of which athletics was becoming a visible part.

Maybe he didn't want to see Mt. St. James need a 45,000 seat Fitton Stadium to play Pitt and Syracuse. Maybe the small college model was to be preserved at the expense of the inexorable trends elsewhere, and athletics needed to follow that direction or else. Maybe Peter Likins was just more convincing than Dave Gavitt. More than all of these, maybe the glory of the past was more important than the promise of the future.

Rev. Brooks famously said he was not in the sports entertainment business, and he may well have been directing that at the presidents of BC and Georgetown, two Jesuits he knew well. A generation later, BC and Georgetown are no longer peers at HC, its athletics vision is decidedly regional, and the athletic experience still seems about "what was", and not "what is to be". A different quote from Rev. Brooks is more telling. "We have created a model for others to follow," he said in looking back on the Patriot League. "So far, no one has followed."

Georgetown: "We play where we do not compete, and compete where we do not play."

Re: Patriot League 2018 - way way way to early

Originally Posted by DFW HOYA

I think it was less about secular/Jesuit leadership and more about John Brooks.

Excepting a year in grad school in Pennsylvania, a year in Jesuit tertianship in Connecticut, and a year in Rome, Rev. Brooks literally spent his entire life in either Boston or Worcester, where his vision of "the academy", a community of scholars, was rooted in the small college traditions of New England.

His loyalty to HC is unquestioned, but he was not comfortable with the changes going on at BC and Georgetown (two schools that Holy Cross still considered its peers), of which athletics was becoming a visible part.

Maybe he didn't want to see Mt. St. James need a 45,000 seat Fitton Stadium to play Pitt and Syracuse. Maybe the small college model was to be preserved at the expense of the inexorable trends elsewhere, and athletics needed to follow that direction or else. Maybe Peter Likins was just more convincing than Dave Gavitt. More than all of these, maybe the glory of the past was more important than the promise of the future.

Rev. Brooks famously said he was not in the sports entertainment business, and he may well have been directing that at the presidents of BC and Georgetown, two Jesuits he knew well. A generation later, BC and Georgetown are no longer peers at HC, its athletics vision is decidedly regional, and the athletic experience still seems about "what was", and not "what is to be". A different quote from Rev. Brooks is more telling. "We have created a model for others to follow," he said in looking back on the Patriot League. "So far, no one has followed."

Well said. Provides a vital aspect of why Holy Cross is the way it is. Yet it does beg the question why has Holy Cross been unable to pursue athletic success as well as academic. Little doubt Cross Admissions Dept ,in its quest to fulfill Fr.Brooks' dream , took an antagonistic stance with athletic admissions. Over the last few years under Pine AD has been able to work out a more accommodating process with Admissions apparently. It takes years to rebuild an athletic program. It appears that College administration is at least amenable to athletic goals.
One only has to look at Easton to see the results of a hostile athletic- academic relationship.

Re: Patriot League 2018 - way way way to early

And while we're at it..... These objective factoids underscore how ham-handed and counter-productive Sader87's narrative has been promoting the PL as the catalyst for HC's ( athletic ) problems. I truly believe Sader87 is a devoted HC alum who wants to promote his alma mater. He couldn't have done a worse job as an HC ambassador on this board.[/QUOTE]

Re: Patriot League 2018 - way way way to early

Originally Posted by Go...gate

And while we're at it..... These objective factoids underscore how ham-handed and counter-productive Sader87's narrative has been promoting the PL as the catalyst for HC's ( athletic ) problems. I truly believe Sader87 is a devoted HC alum who wants to promote his alma mater. He couldn't have done a worse job as an HC ambassador on this board.

Colgate Raider Redux, why the hostility to Sader87?

He loves his school no differently than the rest of us.[/QUOTE]

A bit differently. An avid fan . Absolutely. He uses his negative view of Cross in the PL to salve his angst at Crusaders' lack of success. He revels in the glories of ages gone by and blames the PL for all football's ills.

Re: Patriot League 2018 - way way way to early

Originally Posted by RichH2

[/B]Colgate Raider Redux, why the hostility to Sader87?

He loves his school no differently than the rest of us.

A bit differently. An avid fan . Absolutely. He uses his negative view of Cross in the PL to salve his angst at Crusaders' lack of success. He revels in the glories of ages gone by and blames the PL for all football's ills.[/QUOTE]