They're not useless as such, but they're just not really good at anything either. It's stats are mediocre, it has no rend, it's unbind is superfluous given how many wizards we have, and the slann being borderline mandatory nowadays. It has little to no synergy with our other stuff. It's not a hero so it can't take an artifact/command traits. The only thing that it has going for it is that it's our only unit that can get a bonus to it's charge distance making it one of the few units that stands a chance of succesfully charging after a teleport or summon. All of which makes it somewhat of a let down.

mwha, most of our battalions won't have changed much with the new rules. Most of the new rules simply don't directly influence much that has to do with our battalions (unlike how they would in say a shooty army).I'd wager the majority of what's written here still basically holds.

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Yes, that's true, the core of the analysis is still valid. However, some points values are actually outdated, and so all the possible references to summoning units as reinforcement tactic, which now works in a different way.

Yes, that's true, the core of the analysis is still valid. However, some points values are actually outdated, and so all the possible references to summoning units as reinforcement tactic, which now works in a different way.

Click to expand...

We haven't had massive point changes though have we? I can't remember anything major enough to make an overprized unit worth it, or to make a cheap unit too expensive with the exception of maybe Kroak, but given how powerfull he pulls through pretty much regardless of how overprized he is.

The rules of the battalions are not changed.
The point cost, however is… if not for the battalions, at least for some of the single units.
Some advices are also outdated, as the new rules introduced with the 2nd ed. (summoning first) may require a different approach or give you more ways to exploit the potential of a battalion.
For example, the increased range of dispels and the incentives to forego casting, actually make more useful to have a Slann with Great Rememberer rather than Vast Intellect.

Anyway, i would say that a solid percentage of the suggestions given (around 90%), are still valid and you can work on them as a good starting point.

If you have specific question on single battalions, i will be happy to help.

Updating the tactics around generals is also needed now that you can use any hero's command ability and use it repeatedly. Like if you're bringing a firelance I would definitely bring a SV on CO over the carnosaur, and support it with a Oldblood on Carnosaur. Give him the Uglu sword of judgement(D6 mortal wounds on a hit of 6 vs heroes and monsters. Put that in a Dracothian's Tail to protect him and grab a CP, deep strike the SV down turn 2, spam the Oldblood's command ability 3-4 times and send all your heroes in.

You're getting a SV on CO who can charge an extra 3", do 11 attacks with his pick, 4+ to attack a second time, all 6's to hit are d6 mortals vs heroes or monsters. Not to mention your Carnosaur gets 11 more bites and your engine of the gods gets 11 more gores.

Oldblood on Carnosaur is definitely one of the stronger support characters if you're running strong melee characters.

Also adding in an entry for Fangs of Sotek would be nice. Right now the Sunclaw Starhost entry says it's not worth taking on a group of min size warrior units, that you really need a 40 man mob or the points are wasted. I think that might be different with Fangs of Sotek.

Fangs of Sotek

Slann
Oldblood on Carnosaur - Like above, this guy's command ability is very strong when you have the CP to spam it, which this setup gives you 3 extra CP

Sunblood - His 6's to hit are d3 hits so he'll synergize very well with the Oldblood
3 10-man warrior units - These are just chaff in this list. They can move an extra 3" turn 1 so move them up into position to obstruct the enemy and die. Take these for your battlelines instead of skinks, and summon the skinks instead to support and be more chaff

That's 1140 points but 520 worth of it is the Slann and Oldblood, which are great units in their own right.

To this I would add a SV on CO with the sword of judgement and an engine of the gods. Both are solid, and are heroes and can benefit from the old blood.

What I haven't decided is if from here do you spend 260 points to add 30 warriors and make a big mob of warriors or stick with min.

Slann
Oldblood on Carnosaur - Like above, this guy's command ability is very strong when you have the CP to spam it, which this setup gives you 3 extra CP

Sunblood - His 6's to hit are d3 hits so he'll synergize very well with the Oldblood
3 10-man warrior units - These are just chaff in this list. They can move an extra 3" turn 1 so move them up into position to obstruct the enemy and die. Take these for your battlelines instead of skinks, and summon the skinks instead to support and be more chaff

That's 1140 points but 520 worth of it is the Slann and Oldblood, which are great units in their own right.

To this I would add a SV on CO with the sword of judgement and an engine of the gods. Both are solid, and are heroes and can benefit from the old blood.

What I haven't decided is if from here do you spend 260 points to add 30 warriors and make a big mob of warriors or stick with min.

That's what, 500 points of tax? And the only benefit this tax gives is +3" on the first turn, 1 command point & 2 artifacts. That's not exactly great…
Maybe if you fill up the fang of sotek so you get the D3 command points per turn it might be worth it. But if this is all you're going to get out of the fangs of sotek it doesn't seem viable.

The warriors aren't completely a tax cause you have to fill the battleline with something. 30 skinks are still 180 points. The 30 warriors at least have a 5+ save and -1 rend.

The 70 for Fangs is worth what you get, the biggest tax IMO is 130 for the sunclaw and 140 for the sunblood. The sunblood's not bad, but not something I would ever take outside of a sunclaw.

I don't really consider the full cost of warriors or the Fangs cost as a tax since I'd have to spend 180 on skinks anyway and the 70 for Fangs is worth what you get(50 points for a CP and you also pull in a bloodroar bonus, 3" movement bonus, and a 1 drop army)

120 points for warriors over skinks
140 for sunblood which is a tax cause he's good at leading a pack of warriors but that's about it
130 for sunclaw which in a min 3 10x warrior setup is definitely a tax
390 points

So yeh, you're right, without investing into a 40 man warrior mob sunclaw is too much. The sunblood's command ability is also only going to be good if you're running a bunch of warriors. The sunblood's command ability actually is pretty good if you're using him to support a 40 man warrior blob. Reroll all misses for saurus units vs a target unit. It would let you keep your astrolith bearer somewhere else.

The warriors aren't completely a tax cause you have to fill the battleline with something. 30 skinks are still 180 points. The 30 warriors at least have a 5+ save and -1 rend.

The 70 for Fangs is worth what you get, the biggest tax IMO is 130 for the sunclaw and 140 for the sunblood. The sunblood's not bad, but not something I would ever take outside of a sunclaw.

I don't really consider the full cost of warriors or the Fangs cost as a tax since I'd have to spend 180 on skinks anyway and the 70 for Fangs is worth what you get(50 points for a CP and you also pull in a bloodroar bonus, 3" movement bonus, and a 1 drop army)

120 points for warriors over skinks
140 for sunblood which is a tax cause he's good at leading a pack of warriors but that's about it
130 for sunclaw which in a min 3 10x warrior setup is definitely a tax
390 points

So yeh, you're right, without investing into a 40 man warrior mob sunclaw is too much. The sunblood's command ability is also only going to be good if you're running a bunch of warriors. The sunblood's command ability actually is pretty good if you're using him to support a 40 man warrior blob. Reroll all misses for saurus units vs a target unit. It would let you keep your astrolith bearer somewhere else.

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wasn't the whole point of your list to get the sunblood in it? So I wouldn't count him as a tax in that case

As for the warriors vs skinks; battleline tax is still a tax, if all you're using them for is to fill a tax you're still just paying that for them instead of getting something usefull. Also, minimum sized warrior units are terrible enough that I'd only barely rank em above skinks, they're still increadibly unlikely to hold their own against anything though at least they'l probably deal a wound or two unlike skinks...

All battalion costs are ultimatly a tax. Imho they shouldn't have a pointcost, the requirements for what goes in em should be enough of a tax/limitation to Ensure it's balanced, but that's a different design philosophy I guess.

The more I look at it the more I agree with you. I'm looking more at a Dracothian's Tail list right now. The firelance isn't great on its own unfortunately and I'm not sure if it's worth it. Being able to keep half the army in deep strike could be very nice though. And like you said, 10 man warrior units are garbage, especially since as a basic battle line unit knights are a flat upgrade at that size. 90 points for 10 wounds that get 15 decent attacks and 5 bad attacks vs 100 points for 10 wounds that get 10 decent attacks and 10 bad attacks, which is also slower. 5 Knights also have a smaller footprint so they're easier to teleport and easier to get all the attack power into melee range than 10 warriors.

One of the things I'm planning on deep striking with a Dracothian's Tail is a stegadon. It can use it's alpha ability to move itself d6" closer to the enemy and then flamer/charge them. It also lets me keep my oldblood and scar vet on cold one in reserve. One thing I've found with them is that if the enemy can out maneuver me and keep me from getting them into the right fight it hurts. The old blood on carnosaur's spammable command ability is his key ability and if you can't position your heroes to abuse it he sucks. DT would help with that since I could drop them where I need them and still have teleports for other things.