Dzogchen "view" means being in the state of contemplation, that is what i was getting at.

I know, I was agreeing with what you were saying to people. Dzogchen masters try to explain that view in concepts as much as possible though finally it has to be experienced for proper realization. Also:

Malcolm wrote:Dzogchen "view" means being in the state of contemplation

username wrote:I know, I was agreeing with what you were saying to people. Dzogchen masters try to explain that view in concepts as much as possible though finally it has to be experienced for proper realization.

Malcolm wrote:The difference in view in the three series is not conceptual, it is experiential.

Experience have a tendency to be expressed conceptually in general, I think that might be true for all the nine yanas actually.

/magnus

Those expressions are not the experience.

Of course not, but there is no denying that the different views are distinguished conceptually. It would take a Buddha to distinguish peoples experience. Actually, I always wondered how the view of the nine yanas would correspond to actual experience of the practitioners of the nine yanas.

/magnus

"To reject practice by saying, 'it is conceptual!' is the path of fools. A tendency of the inexperienced and something to be avoided."- Longchenpa

Its nice of them to give a bit more info on the details of the retreats.

Chögyal Namkhai Norbu Retreats at MerigarAugust 31 – September 6, 2012Longsal Atii Gongpa GojedThe Opening of the Gate to the State of Ati (A ti’i dgongs pa sgo ’byed), set down in writing by Chögyal Namkhai Norbu in 1977, is a special teaching of Padmasambhava, the Mahaguru of Oddiyana (eighth century), that explains the conditions of the teaching in this degenerate age and presents a practice of Purification of the Six Lokas based on the principle of the reversal (ru log) of samsara. The dreams through which the upadesha was discovered are connected to Padmasambhava himself and to the author’s root guru Rigdzin Changchub Dorje (1826-1961).(Longsal Teachings, Volume 2, Shang Shung Edizioni)

September 7–9, 2012SMS Level 1 Exams

September 10–16, 2012 Training for SMS Level 2

September 21–27, 2012 Shitro Khorde Rangdrol: Terma Teaching of Rigdzin Changchub DorjeShitro is a very general name. The Tibetan Book of the Dead is an example of a shitro text that is widely diffused in the West. It was originally composed by Guru Padmasambhava and then hidden by him in a series of shitro termas. A tertön called Karma Lingpa discovered it, and since that time it became widely diffused in all traditions. Of course many other shitro texts exist as well.Shitro Khorde Rangdrol is a terma teaching of my root teacher Changchub Dorje. I received this teaching and the related initiation from him, so I consider this Shitro Khorde Rangdrol particularly precious. Shitro means wrathful and peaceful manifestations. These manifestations represent our condition. In the Dzogchen teaching, we say that the state of Dzogchen is nondual kadag and lhundrub. Kadag means empty, pure, since the beginning. Lhundrub refers to all manifestations, all qualifications, which are related with movement. So shitro is the condition of the individual. The purpose of the shitro teachings is to introduce that state so we can enter into our real state.We generally do a shitro of Namchö Mingyur Dorje that like most teachings of Namchö Mingyur Dorje is very essential. This Shitro Khorde Rangdrol practice is quite simple as well. We apply it according to the system of Anuyoga and combine it with Namchö Mingyur Dorje’s system.(Teachings on Shitro and Yangti, Shang Shung EdizioniChang Chog of the Namchö Shitro: A Purification Ritual for the Dead, Shang Shung Edizioni)

'At the moment of recognizing your mind essence leave it in naturalness, simply as it is. If you keep striking a bell, the sound is interrupted by the effort. Just leave that recognition be without altering it. That is the way to not lose the continuity. Soon enough the recognition will vanish by itself. As beginners, naturally we will forget after a bit. We don't need to try to prevent thator guard against it with great effort. Once distracted, again recognize. That is the training.

Every level of teaching has its own purpose, and even though the very heart of the Buddhadharma is to recognize mind essence and train in that, still, there are obstacles and hindrances that need to be cleared away and enhancement practices that need to be done. An obstacle is something that prevents us from remaining in the natural state. These can be cleared away by certain practices. There are also ways to improve or enhance our practice and to deepen our experience. These two - clearing hindrances and enhancing - are extremely useful.'

Tulku Urgyen

"To reject practice by saying, 'it is conceptual!' is the path of fools. A tendency of the inexperienced and something to be avoided."- Longchenpa

'At the moment of recognizing your mind essence leave it in naturalness, simply as it is. If you keep striking a bell, the sound is interrupted by the effort. Just leave that recognition be without altering it. That is the way to not lose the continuity. Soon enough the recognition will vanish by itself. As beginners, naturally we will forget after a bit. We don't need to try to prevent thator guard against it with great effort. Once distracted, again recognize. That is the training.

Every level of teaching has its own purpose, and even though the very heart of the Buddhadharma is to recognize mind essence and train in that, still, there are obstacles and hindrances that need to be cleared away and enhancement practices that need to be done. An obstacle is something that prevents us from remaining in the natural state. These can be cleared away by certain practices. There are also ways to improve or enhance our practice and to deepen our experience. These two - clearing hindrances and enhancing - are extremely useful.'

simhanada wrote:We generally do a shitro of Namchö Mingyur Dorje that like most teachings of Namchö Mingyur Dorje is very essential. This Shitro Khorde Rangdrol practice is quite simple as well. We apply it according to the system of Anuyoga and combine it with Namchö Mingyur Dorje’s system.(Teachings on Shitro and Yangti, Shang Shung EdizioniChang Chog of the Namchö Shitro: A Purification Ritual for the Dead, Shang Shung Edizioni)

Pero wrote:I'm sorry but I don't see how your reply explains what the supposed mental judgements in Semde are. If you're saying that the four yogas are conceptual methods till they're not, well, it's the same way in Mengagde methods (except thogal etc.).

...These methods working with the mind emphasize different methodologies as the main toolbox as opposed to the other two series who rely not so much or in detail on training the conceptual mind as much as the "mind series instructions". The other two series expect the student to leave concepts behind much quicker for recognition. Though they all return to them for progress after recognition but still semde uses concepts much more in it's methods all the way. The other point I made was that the concepts in semde stages can seem to be oppositional as you progress, though in the end they unify well. There is a good reason for that.

Those 'mental judgements' are concepts. In the other two series there is not such a long roadmap involving so much concepts. You either get it or try again with various methods at various stages on progress orask the guru to troubleshoot. All 3 aim for rigpa but semde uses concepts (judgements etc.) much more & longer than the other two, hence Jigmed Lingpa's characterization so & the name given to that series.

I think this is not a convincing argument. You can say mengagde is faster and more direct but that doesn't do away with the fact that semdzins, rushans and zernga all use concepts. If anything there is actually a lot more practices with using the mind in mengagde than in semde (at least from what I've been able to see). So either Jigmed Lingpa is mistaken or something, or more likely, "mental judgements" refers to something else.

Although many individuals in this age appear to be merely indulging their worldly desires, one does not have the capacity to judge them, so it is best to train in pure vision.- Shabkar

Pero wrote:I'm sorry but I don't see how your reply explains what the supposed mental judgements in Semde are. If you're saying that the four yogas are conceptual methods till they're not, well, it's the same way in Mengagde methods (except thogal etc.).

...These methods working with the mind emphasize different methodologies as the main toolbox as opposed to the other two series who rely not so much or in detail on training the conceptual mind as much as the "mind series instructions". The other two series expect the student to leave concepts behind much quicker for recognition. Though they all return to them for progress after recognition but still semde uses concepts much more in it's methods all the way. The other point I made was that the concepts in semde stages can seem to be oppositional as you progress, though in the end they unify well. There is a good reason for that.

Those 'mental judgements' are concepts. In the other two series there is not such a long roadmap involving so much concepts. You either get it or try again with various methods at various stages on progress orask the guru to troubleshoot. All 3 aim for rigpa but semde uses concepts (judgements etc.) much more & longer than the other two, hence Jigmed Lingpa's characterization so & the name given to that series.

I think this is not a convincing argument. You can say mengagde is faster and more direct but that doesn't do away with the fact that semdzins, rushans and zernga all use concepts. If anything there is actually a lot more practices with using the mind in mengagde than in semde (at least from what I've been able to see). So either Jigmed Lingpa is mistaken or something, or more likely, "mental judgements" refers to something else.

- As I said to you previously 'mental judgements' are concepts which you conveniently ignore above, hence I see no genuine intent here.

- As all high school students know: Human literary communication and semantic/cognitive thought expressed in words is concepts. This also applies to the words/texts of 3 series.

- Getting into the knowledge of the real nature, rigpa, as a result of the 3 series' fruits is beyond concepts though. But that is the fruit or result or target or destination not the texts/words or the means or path or vehicle employed.

- Semde takes the conceptual mind as the main material to work with as opposed to space in longde or 'right off the bat' DI in mengagde (as Jigmed Lingpa states in that quote you also did not read properly like else here) as well as in modular stages of the other 2 series without long term semantic/conceptual roadmap (as I said) in semde with your ordinary mind on the anvil to be hammered into shape. So it exclusively focuses on the conceptual mind as target of shaping 'by' conceptual mind. Example: like government of the people by the people as opposed to government of the people by a benevolent dictator. In semde the mind is used as both the method and the material. In longde space is emphasized and in mengagde you are given DI from start as the main means and if not successful work on prelims and if successful higher stages of trekcho & thogal work on getting into the state without a long term plan of shaping the conceptual ordinary mind, as in semde. So you have multiple basic misunderstandings plus not reading properly the quote or the specific replies.

- Rinpoche says he found after years of initial teachings that he realized he was being mistaken about a large number of his western students. He says he believed them when they said that they were realizing the state. But then he found out after some time they were just parroting phrases of realization. He thought about this problem for some time and realized many westerners are obsessed by concepts and it is not easy to for them to go beyond concepts. As we see here. So he researched semde texts, which were not used much as in Tibet mengagde has been the recent historic norm, and started preparing & teaching that to westerners. Then slowly he says he started to see results as he worked with their minds using semde over a longer period, than immediate DI fruit of mengagde. He says this gradual approach of working with conceptual mind (which you deny as characteristic of semde) seems more suited to many, but not all, westerners who suffer from being prisoners of concepts.

Pero wrote:So either Jigmed Lingpa is mistaken or something, or more likely, "mental judgements" refers to something else.

- Since mental judgments are concepts too, I don't think Jigmed Lingpa is the one who is wrong here.

Chögyal Namkhai Norbu Retreats at MerigarAugust 31 – September 6, 2012Longsal Atii Gongpa GojedThe Opening of the Gate to the State of Ati (A ti’i dgongs pa sgo ’byed), set down in writing by Chögyal Namkhai Norbu in 1977, is a special teaching of Padmasambhava, the Mahaguru of Oddiyana (eighth century), that explains the conditions of the teaching in this degenerate age and presents a practice of Purification of the Six Lokas based on the principle of the reversal (ru log) of samsara. The dreams through which the upadesha was discovered are connected to Padmasambhava himself and to the author’s root guru Rigdzin Changchub Dorje (1826-1961).(Longsal Teachings, Volume 2, Shang Shung Edizioni)

Can anyone give me more info about the upcoming retreat text and the practice of purification of the 6 realms of samsara?or i can just be a bit more patient........

It is good to always look in all three places, as many times (as now searching on 6 Lokas) there are different materials available.

The rules are also variable, changing from time to time, and place to place, depending on the functional kindness (which relates to how much practice they have done) of the person in charge at the moment.

In general you can have access to all books if you are a member of the DC.

You can have access to the DVDs and MP3s of the retreats, if you attended that retreat.

If you attest that you listened to the retreat on the webcast, that may be allowed (see above).

In few words, the 6 Loka practice uses creative visualization, and the repetition of mantra, to effect a, non-dual, luminous experience of dissolving the body into light.

I did a 4 month retreat on the 6 Loka practice using the old method, which does not use special body postures for each "loka", and found it completely effective.

I have also tried the new method, which uses special body postures, and found it equally effective.

I think that which method may be more effective, may depend on individual temperament.

There are key points which unlock the practice, like "back very straight" and "completely bright", which you should learn from a Teacher. (Note: I am not a Teacher.)

this is my first time attending a live webcast and i realized something.Chogyal Namkhai Norbu Rinpoche teaches dzogchen, directly with no dilution,no bs, hes trying to get everyone into that real condition.