was consecrated as Metropolitan of the San Joaquin Valley on January 25, 1997, by Mar Josephus Narsai. Mar Enoch is the first American bishop (of the lineage of Mar Timotheos I) to have undertaken formal visits to India, to visit the Mother Church.

He was honored to meet with the Catholicos of the Malankara Orthodox Syrian Church in India, His Holiness Baselios Mar Thoma II. His Eminence Mar Enoch was also honored to visit the Metropolitan of the Malabar Independent Syrian Church, His Eminence Mar Koorilose.

Through these historic meetings, the Mar Thoma Orthodox Church has developed a positive relationship with the Orthodox Churches in India. Mar Enoch has continued to dialogue with these respected jurisdictions in hope that the Mar Thoma Orthodox Church will soon make an official reconnection to the Mother Church.

Head of a missionary diocese, Mar Enoch oversees churches not only in California, but also all throughout the United States, as well as congregations in Europe and Africa. His diligence and sincere pursuit for unity has brought the ancient Christian faith to thousands Americans, and that number continues to grow. His Eminence has worked tediously to develop educational programs to nurture the faith of those discovering the rich heritage of Orthodoxy.

Is anyone in this "orthodox church"?

Orthodoxy

Logged

"But if I say, I will not mention Him or speak any more in His name, His word is in my heart like burning fire, shut up in my bones. I am weary of holding it in; indeed I cannot" (Jeremiah 20:9)

was consecrated as Metropolitan of the San Joaquin Valley on January 25, 1997, by Mar Josephus Narsai. Mar Enoch is the first American bishop (of the lineage of Mar Timotheos I) to have undertaken formal visits to India, to visit the Mother Church.

He was honored to meet with the Catholicos of the Malankara Orthodox Syrian Church in India, His Holiness Baselios Mar Thoma II. His Eminence Mar Enoch was also honored to visit the Metropolitan of the Malabar Independent Syrian Church, His Eminence Mar Koorilose.

Through these historic meetings, the Mar Thoma Orthodox Church has developed a positive relationship with the Orthodox Churches in India. Mar Enoch has continued to dialogue with these respected jurisdictions in hope that the Mar Thoma Orthodox Church will soon make an official reconnection to the Mother Church.

Head of a missionary diocese, Mar Enoch oversees churches not only in California, but also all throughout the United States, as well as congregations in Europe and Africa. His diligence and sincere pursuit for unity has brought the ancient Christian faith to thousands Americans, and that number continues to grow. His Eminence has worked tediously to develop educational programs to nurture the faith of those discovering the rich heritage of Orthodoxy.

Is anyone in this "orthodox church"?

Orthodoxy,

Well, scary as it is, the answers to both your opening and closing questions are "yes".

Thanks for the link, it's always good to be reminded to keep up to date on Mar Enoch a/k/a Veron Ashe. He's been floating around the scene for almost a decade now, since he was ordained to the episcopate by "Papa Joe" Vredenburg, a/k/a Patriarch Joseph, a/k/a Mar Narsai, one of the truly legendary among the episcopi vagante and the founder of what used to be called the Federation of Saint Thomas Christians, to which Mar Enoch has apparently become heir in its latest incarnation.

When Mar Enoch isn't busy shepherding the Mar Thoma Orthodox Church Archdiocese and celebrating the Holy Qurbana in Fresno, he can be found on the East Coast where, as Archbishop Veron Ashe (slow loading - but wait thru the intro, it will be worth it and don't miss the web forum), he's busy shepherding The Church of Miami, which is a function of Archbishop Veron Ashe Ministries and at which he is Presiding Overseer and Pastor. You'll notice, on reviewing the site, that TCOM has a decidedly Protestant ("Praise and Worship", "Praise the Lord") evangelical tenor to it, reminiscent of the Archbishop's Charismatic/Pentecostal faith affiliation before he "went East" (he began life as a RC - our loss ).

But, if one is traveling coast-to-coast, one should have a waystation between origin and destination, as the Pony Express riders did. If nothing else, it provides a place to change one's clothes from the Eastern garb one wears on the West coast to the Western garb one wears on the East coast. And, lo and behold, there's just such a spot in beautiful Denver, CO, where one can stop in at St. Isaac's Christian Church, the Cathedral seat of the Convergence Church and visit with the Divine Nature Network a/k/a The Imago Dei Global Communities and join a "pack" (must be a Malabarese or Malankarese term meaning "congregation" - right, Phil? ).

Be sure to check out the photo galleries. While in Denver, you can also pick up audio or video tapes of His Grace or the piece de resistance, for a mere $150.00:

On July 3-8th, the most significant gathering of warriors ever assembled converged in the Mile High City of Denver, Colorado, and engaged the principalities and powers that have defiled the mind set of God's people for 2000 years. The mandate from God to gather around apostolic revelation released an army of liberated, loving warriors into this nation and around the world, for the purpose of fulfilling the scriptural promise of the great ingathering of souls in these last days.

The theme of this enocounter is 'Liberation 2000: Divine Nature Alignment'. We must begin this Millennium with a breakthrough in the perception realm. True Liberty is a result of accurate perception "You shall KNOW the truth, and the truth will set you free"!

We encourage you to experience this Divine Community encounter. This could very well be the most important investment of your resources that you have ever had the opportunity to make. Experience the Love, experience the Liberty, experience Liberation 2000! This is a powerful merging of Christ's Body into true unity and love, not only in power, but also in demonstration.

All in all, the Archbishop is a busy man, a regular on the evangelical circuit and apparently hierarch of a few non-denominational churches as well, such as Deliverance Central in Springfield, MA.

Can I be a Patriarch or at least an Eparch - maybe a Monsignor :- ?

Many years,

Neil

« Last Edit: February 22, 2005, 09:49:27 PM by Irish Melkite »

Logged

"Not only is it unnecessary to adopt the customs of the Latin Rite to manifest one's Catholicism, it is an offense against the unity of the Church."

Seems you are familiar with this group. I was a member of Imago Dei before I tried to recieve communion in a real orthodox Church then I found out I was not really orthodox. Quite the stunning revelation. Needless to say I left the group because of the lies they told me about the real orthodox Church when I confronted them. I thank God my priest was honest and told me they were not orthodox as painful as that truth was to bear. I wanted to worship in the Orthodox CHurch without traveling 60 miles to do so. In seeking out a local orthodox Church I found out how fraudulent they really were.

This group is quite slick and insists they are orthodox when not one of them can commune in the Holy Orthodox Church. I dont believe they are bad people just duped. Many come out hunrgy for an orthodoxy they have not experianced. I know three others that have left that group and enter the True Faith. Praise God that He can use a lie by men for good!

In Christ,

Orthodoxy

Logged

"But if I say, I will not mention Him or speak any more in His name, His word is in my heart like burning fire, shut up in my bones. I am weary of holding it in; indeed I cannot" (Jeremiah 20:9)

Believe it or not some that come out of this group still hunger for the "orthodox" things that they teach. Although the teach some pretty goofy stuff they introduced icons and prayer, the eucharist and other aspects of othodoxy to otherwise duped protestants that think anything catholic is "devil worship". So some good can come from this "convergence Church". If we are made aware they exist then maybe if we run into some of this people we can be honest and tell then like my spiritual father told me "you have a misrepresented Jesus" in that brand of orthodoxy. I know it can happen because it happened to me.

Unworthy naive servant,

Orthodoxy

Logged

"But if I say, I will not mention Him or speak any more in His name, His word is in my heart like burning fire, shut up in my bones. I am weary of holding it in; indeed I cannot" (Jeremiah 20:9)

Hi Orthodoxy! Thank God you made it home, and took the right attitude when your spiritual father reprimanded you, instead of storming off in a huff.

I know that the people in the pews are not to blame. Obviously, most of them do not know better. But what about the leaders? Are they "in the dark" too? Or, having been exposed to authentic Orthodoxy, have they continued to "misrepresent Jesus" (in the words of your spiritual father) deliberately?

I would find it hard to believe that they have never dialogued with the Orthodox Church, and that no one has pointed out their errors to them.

Logged

My sins run out behind me and I do not see them, but today I am coming to judge the errors of another.

Seems you are familiar with this group. I was a member of Imago Dei before I tried to recieve communion in a real orthodox Church then I found out I was not really orthodox. Quite the stunning revelation. Needless to say I left the group because of the lies they told me about the real orthodox Church when I confronted them. ...

This group is quite slick and insists they are orthodox when not one of them can commune in the Holy Orthodox Church. I dont believe they are bad people just duped. ...

Orthodoxy,

I don't personally have any experience with them, but I am a long-time serious student of episcopi vagante, ecclesia vagante, and the "independent movement", both "Catholic" and "Orthodox", and Veron Ashe has been up and coming for some years unfortunately, so I'm very aware of him and his endeavors.

You are correct in your observation that some good may come out of these groups in that they introduce those exposed to them to some truths and features of Orthodox and Catholic theologies and praxis, but it is unfortunately tainted by the surrounding facade which is an empty expression of a true theology that doesn't exist within the group.

I would note that there are a small number of Churches within the broad genre that truly do spiritual good - such are, by Orthodox or Catholic standards, separated from the realm of what each considers to be canonical entities but are shepherded by well-intended and good people who truly believe that they are doing God's work. As a friend from the Byzantine Forum, a former priest in an Old Catholic Church, noted - there are men who are honest in their convictions that their reasons for having separated from and maintaining a separate existence from the mainstream Churches in which they originated were and remain valid. With such folks, some of whom I know personally, I can disagree, pray for their enlightenment and return to the truth of their parent Churches, but still respect what they do and how they go about it. They are, however, the exception and not the norm and they sometimes discover that they are existing side-by-side with others, who are modern day counterparts to the snakeoil peddler of bygone times.

Many years,

Neil

« Last Edit: February 23, 2005, 10:40:36 PM by Irish Melkite »

Logged

"Not only is it unnecessary to adopt the customs of the Latin Rite to manifest one's Catholicism, it is an offense against the unity of the Church."

At leat the guy took the time to research the Clerical garb. Not like Metro-patriarch Swift Eagle Justice!

Ian,

Unfortunately, while Dr. Chief Patriarch Swift Eagle Justice may look silly, he and his "Church" are less dangerous. They are typical of a style of vagante who were once the the norm but are much less prevalent these days - so bizarre in their presentation that most people will see them as farcical.

Veron Ashe's groups have the outward appearance of respectibility and look mainstream; as a consequence, they're much more inviting to the unchurched and inquirers.

Many years,

Neil

Logged

"Not only is it unnecessary to adopt the customs of the Latin Rite to manifest one's Catholicism, it is an offense against the unity of the Church."

My apologies if I sounded flipant. It was not the intetion. I know all too well what these false priests can do to harm the Orthodox and the fondation of the true church by proclaiming to speak for it and taking on the appearance therof. I have been there, and I am glad my life was turned from ought.

Not at all. I actually got a laugh from what you said and it was very true; I just wanted to make that observation because I have been following this phenomenon for a lot of years and don't think people always realize that those who play the part with some measure of reality are more a risk to folks than the ones who cause us to cringe and roll our eyes in disbelief.

Many years,

Neil

Logged

"Not only is it unnecessary to adopt the customs of the Latin Rite to manifest one's Catholicism, it is an offense against the unity of the Church."

Please explain the differance. The Orthodox Church in India is much differant than the Ashe Church represents. From my studies the Malankara Orthodox Syrian Church in India appearsa to be highly infulenced by the Anglican Church is this true? I have met preists from India and they are nothing like Ashe.

Mar Timotheos I (Rene Villatte), a French "Old Catholic," as Archbishop of an American Mission. Who is this man? Do you know?

I cannot find anything in the Antiochian geneology of the Church concerning this man or a man named Patriarch of Antioch (Mar Ignatius Peter III) of the Syrian Orthodox Church. Did this guy become a schismatic in the Antiochian Church?

Rene Villatte has a sorted past it seems and began "church hopping" looking for someone that believed his "Origen theology" of the "restoration of all thing" meaning all men and even satan will be reconciled to God and saved. I read he tried the Russia Church but they saw him a heretic. I am certain Ashe preaches this error and I have the tapes to prove it. Do you subscribe to this theology?

Thanks,

Orthodoxy

« Last Edit: February 26, 2005, 01:35:42 AM by Orthodoxy »

Logged

"But if I say, I will not mention Him or speak any more in His name, His word is in my heart like burning fire, shut up in my bones. I am weary of holding it in; indeed I cannot" (Jeremiah 20:9)

This is all getting a bit involved. I'm not Phil and won't presume to speak for him, but let me see if I can sort some of this out before folks get off on too many tangents.

Quote

What is this wannabe operation? Are they impersonating our church?

Matthew,

The short answer to your question is "yes", but the fuller answer is a bit more complex than that. Let me suggest you do two things. Read this thread from the beginning and also read a thread titled TOPIC UNFORTUNATELY HAD TO BE REMOVED, where I gave a detailed explanation of the terms episcopi vagante and ecclesia vagante. That will give you an understanding of the relationship of these types of Churches to mainstream Orthodoxy, Catholicism, and other Churches, such as Anglicans and Lutherans, which they attempt to mirror.

Please explain the differance. The Orthodox Church in India is much differant than the Ashe Church represents. From my studies the Malankara Orthodox Syrian Church in India appearsa to be highly infulenced by the Anglican Church is this true? I have met preists from India and they are nothing like Ashe.

Mar Timotheos I (Rene Villatte), a French "Old Catholic," as Archbishop of an American Mission. Who is this man? Do you know?

I cannot find anything in the Antiochian geneology of the Church concerning this man or a man named Patriarch of Antioch (Mar Ignatius Peter III) of the Syrian Orthodox Church. Did this guy become a schismatic in the Antiochian Church?

Rene Villatte has a sorted past it seems and began "church hopping" looking for someone that believed his "Origen theology" of the "restoration of all thing" meaning all men and even satan will be reconciled to God and saved. I read he tried the Russia Church but they saw him a heretic. I am certain Ashe preaches this error and I have the tapes to prove it. Do you subscribe to this theology?

Orthodoxy,

I suggest you read the same post to which I referred Matthew - although not specific to the differences between authentic Malankara Orthodoxy and Veron Asche's "Church" it should help you to understand the difference between mainstream and vagante Churches.

As to Joseph Rene Vilatte, a/k/a Mar Timotheos, see this on-line biography of him. It is reasonably accurate, although somewhat sympathetic, and was written by Donald Weeks, a long-time participant in the so-called "independent Catholic/Orthodox movement" and, last I knew, styling himself as bishop of The Apostolic Episcopal Church Anglican Rite.

Vilatte's "epsicopal consecration" was perfomed by Antonio Francisco-Xavier Alvarez, a/k/a Metropolitan Mar Julius I, an excommunicated Latin Catholic priest, founding hierarch of the Independent Catholic Church of Ceylon, Goa and India, who (at some point) became a hierarch in the Syrian Jacobite Church. Although consistently relied upon as one of the lines of Apostolic Succession by virtually every "Old Catholic" and "independent Catholic" or "independent Orthodox" bishop in the US (as well as many Anglican and Lutheran "independents"), Vilatte's consecration has been regularly described as of dubious validity by Syrian Orthodox sources and documentation produced in support of it has been variously described as "questionable" or worse. Read the following text, taken from a Line of Apostolic Succession purporting to demonstrate the validity of Vilatte's "Syrian Orthodox" orders - this comes from one "independent" Church site - but the exact same text appears on multiple sites across the web - pay close attention to the sequence of dates:

Mar Julius I (Antonio Francis Xavier Alvares) was consecrated July 28, 1889, by Paulose Mar Athanasius, under authority of Patriarch Ignatius Peter III to be Archbishop of the Latin Rite Independent Catholic Church of Ceylon, Goa and India

Joseph Rene Vilatte was consecrated on May 29, 1892 in Colombo, Ceylon, by Mar Julius I, under authority of a Bull of Mar Ignatius Peter III, to serve as Archbishop of North America

Mar Ignatius Peter III, more properly Mar Ignatius Peter IV (Peter III was Patriarch in the late 6th century, was Patriarch from 1876 until his repose in 1894.

The Syriac Church you describe as heavily influenced by the Anglicans would most likely be the Mar Thoma Church, which retains what has been described as a stripped-down form of its hereditary liturgy but tends to Anglican theology. I am unfamiliar with Vilatte subscribing to an Origen-influenced theology. By the time of his death, he had reconciled with Roman Catholciism (which, btw, was not his cradle faith - his parents belonged to a small French schismatic Catholic Church, called Petite Eglise; he was, however, raised as a Latin Catholic).

You are correct that he sought orders from both the Old Catholics and the Russian Orthodox, but he was ahead of his time - the flurry of "independent" activity in Catholic and Orthodox circles had not yet really begun in the US - he, in fact, would become one of the progenitors of it. At the point when he was soliciting the Russians, I doubt that they had a formed opinion of him - they just were unlikely to see any point in responding to some American quasi-Catholic who was dabbling with Episcopalians while serving a Belgian-French community of mixed lapsed Catholics, Huegenots, and potential Episcopalian converts in Wisconsin and aggravating both Latin Catholic and Episocopal hierarchs in his approach to doing so. The Old Catholics, on the other hand, from whom he had his presbyteral orders, considered him a potential ecclesiastical detriment to their cause and declined him episcopal orders. It's ironic that so many in the US labeling themselves "Old Catholics" now see him as one of the spiritual forefathers of their movement.

i'm certain Phil can speak for himself, but I assure you that he ascribes to no theology espoused by Veron Ashe.

Many years,

Neil

« Last Edit: March 04, 2005, 04:43:32 PM by Anastasios »

Logged

"Not only is it unnecessary to adopt the customs of the Latin Rite to manifest one's Catholicism, it is an offense against the unity of the Church."

Mar Timotheos I (Rene Villatte), a French "Old Catholic," as Archbishop of an American Mission. Who is this man? Do you know?

I cannot find anything in the Antiochian geneology of the Church concerning this man or a man named Patriarch of Antioch (Mar Ignatius Peter III) of the Syrian Orthodox Church. Did this guy become a schismatic in the Antiochian Church?

Rene Villatte has a sorted past it seems and began "church hopping" looking for someone that believed his "Origen theology" of the "restoration of all thing" meaning all men and even satan will be reconciled to God and saved. I read he tried the Russia Church but they saw him a heretic. I am certain Ashe preaches this error and I have the tapes to prove it. Do you subscribe to this theology?

I don't know much about Vilatte. I'm not aware of the sources which call his ordination into question, as I've always been told it was valid, and he was a member of our Church. I think I remember hearing that he went back to the RCC, though. Alvarez Mar Julius died in communion with the Church, to my knowledge, and there are some who want to canonise him. I think I'll yield to IM's post again.

I subscribe to nothing but the Orthodox Faith.

Logged

"Do not tempt the Mor thy Mod."

Mor no longer posts on OCNet. He follows threads, posts his responses daily, occasionally starts threads, and responds to private messages when and as he wants. But he really isn't around anymore.

I am a member of Imago Dei, I have met Bishop Ashe many times and am very close with the three priests of our church.We are a very real orthodox church, and how dare people judge us before they come and experience it for themselves!

I am a member of Imago Dei, I have met Bishop Ashe many times and am very close with the three priests of our church.We are a very real orthodox church, and how dare people judge us before they come and experience it for themselves!

I am very dissapointed in all of you people that claim to be Orthodox Christains. How can you sit on a website and complain about what others believe? The bible says never to judge a man in his worship, and you are going against that very thing. I am a proud member of St. Issac of Ninevah Imago Dei. We are a real Orthodox Church because we do take part in the eucharist and we do go through the whole liturgy every sermon. Our apostolic succession comes from St. Thomas. You think we are so naive to not know what we are practicing in our lives and our church? I am disgusted with the way you portray our church, because if you are saying all this bad stuff about our church and you have never even sat through a sermon or service, then how can you ever know what we experience? Therefore, you have no place to judge us in what we believe. I really hope that you realize that by judging us you have only cursed yourself. The reason we appear to be just a pentacostal or whatever you think, is because our Priest did come from that kind of bakcground. Most people in America are from that kind of religious background. We do continue to have convergence services for those that are not ready to embrace the full-on Orthodox life. Jesus said, "Go and make disciples of all men." and so we have to welcome any person seeking a christain life, or a change. We are a true Syrian Orthodox Church, and until you hear or attend one of our services, you have no right to say otherwise. And to the user id 'Orthodoxy,' I am sorry that you have to use the issues you have with St. Issac's and make other people think what we are not. You are only causing division between Christains. I'm sorry that you feel so mad that you have to make us look stupid just to make yourself feel righteous. You all will be in my prayers. Have a nice life.