Comments on YouTube can be the bottom of the internet barrel, as far as I'm concerned. Alot of crazies, there.

Yahoo!.com's comments sections are always a place of insanity, as well.

I'm an old fashioned (and just old) guy....I don't want to spend my time reading crazy, mean, or obscene. There are several sites I quit going to simply because you couldn't have a decent conversation with anyone.

By my experience...those that speak loudest and most often to represent the OT-Only side tend to be more negative/nasty than the other side...I actually think those that happen to be mean and love the whole saga have been conditioned by the internet to attack first or be defensive from the get-go due to the abuse that PT and its fans got on a regular basis the last decade. They take it personally just like those disappointed with the PT take it personally that the films weren't up to par to them - they act as if it was a direct slap in their face.

Those that defend the PT to the point of attacking OT-Only fans most likely do so because they're expecting a horde of negativity being sent their way for their opinions - making them defensive at the drop of a hat.

The OT-Only group attacks/insults and even threaten Lucas in the comments sections/forums and love to state who the 'real fans are' (which is insulting to those that love the PT/OT), not to mention have made a career of being upset, joking, making satire, complaining and picking apart the Prequels day after day, year after year. The fact that they won't end their crusade and have RLM and other places on their side makes PT fans feel outgunned and outnumbered, thus feeling intimidated therefore making a PT-Fan apt to feel threatened and feel the need to strike first and/or be mean.

Yes, I have watched most of RLM's Star Wars reviews.

I never said OT-Only fans were mean/negative people - but I am saying the vocal ones that speak the loudest end up representing that sect of the fanbase to be generally more mean spirited than those who love the whole saga. There are plenty of great fans who only love the OT.

I do pity those that love the whole saga - Star Wars fans for years had to fend off those who bullied them/gave them hell for being a Star Wars fan and now they have to fight inside their own fanbase for their ground.

I just think then it is still just listening to one side. There are extremists on both sides. Including a guy that was very negative to many of us (Jim Raynor and his rebuttal to RLM's reviews). Many of the Podcasts, (Star Wars ones) rip on people that don't like the PT, such as one recently went into detail how they hated Simon Pegg the actor because he is a avid PT (disliker). I've rarely seen OT people say that the PT people themselves are "not" fans of Star Wars, I rarely see that. However they attack the actual films, not so much the fans. RLM really attacks the films more so then anything.

So to me your research is still skewed. Funny enough I think meh of the PT I own all of them, from DVD and Blu-Ray. So that may say something. I see more PT fans call us "non Star Wars fans" then the other way around. Many of the OT people attack George Lucas and not necessarily the fans.

To me you've made some big assumptions with how little you claim you know about all this. I do question this.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jamiestarr

Do you all think the divide/debate is really about the movies though?

This stuff goes on with ALL types of fandom. At a point, it's not even about what the movies actually are.

I am sure there are countless Trekkies bickering about JJ's Star Trek Vs Original Trek vs Next Generation.

Solidus...come on. Let's make Star Wars fan club cards, and I'll put an asterisk on yours that says *Except for The Prequel Trilogy (Barf)

For a while I agree. At first TNG was not accepted, but in a few years that changed quickly. And most fell for it. With this, the gap seems to widen more. But I guess the future is unknown.

You don't have to say I hate the PT lol. I don't "Hate" them I just think they are inferior in film making. But there are aspects I enjoy. But sure, as long as I get a lightsaber with my member card lol.

Quote:

Originally Posted by C. Lee

I know they can. There have been some avid fans of various things that I have had to calm down on here.

I know. I meet some now and then.

But I wasn't speaking of the posts on message boards....I was saying that I rarely read any comments that appear after things such as youtube videos, news items, etc....When I do read some of those, the rudeness, crudeness, and just immature hooliganism (been wanting to use that word for awhile now) lowers my IQ.

I'm an old fashioned (and just old) guy....I don't want to spend my time reading crazy, mean, or obscene.

I find FaceBook comment sections for posts done by a band/film/news article to be of the same caliber of crazy, mean and obscene.

The fact that the internet is largely run by those types of people has kept me away from forums. On my GoogleChrome I have a feature where it keeps any comments on YouTube/News sites and such from being visible. I don't see them if it's toggled. Quite a luxury.

Sad thing is that our computers are windows to negativity on the internet. You have to know what's good for your mental health and what to stay away from, I suppose.

I just think then it is still just listening to one side. There are extremists on both sides. Including a guy that was very negative to many of us (Jim Raynor and his rebuttal to RLM's reviews). Many of the Podcasts, (Star Wars ones) rip on people that don't like the PT, such as one recently went into detail how they hated Simon Pegg the actor because he is a avid PT (disliker). I've rarely seen OT people say that the PT people themselves are "not" fans of Star Wars, I rarely see that. However they attack the actual films, not so much the fans. RLM really attacks the films more so then anything.

I see more PT fans call us "non Star Wars fans" then the other way around. Many of the OT people attack George Lucas and not necessarily the fans.

To me you've made some big assumptions with how little you claim you know about all this. I do question this.

I'm giving you my impression, not an assumption. If I can come in, expose myself to Star Wars fandom online in the form of PodCasts, YouTube videos, 90 minute reviews, endless comments, forums, news articles, debates and even documentaries for months - and come out with the impression that those that passionately and vocally (key word) oppose the PT are more mean-spirited in general - then that does say something. And I do get the impression that many that are hostile to those that oppose the PT have likely been conditioned to be that way - and I think everyone knows why.

If you're trying to say "Both sides are equally bad" then I call that a false equivalency. I got the steady impression that one side is generally worse than the other.

If those that dislike the PT had moved on after a year or so and not waged a war on the films and Lucas (and occasionally the fans of the PT themselves) then I highly doubt 'Entire Saga' fans would be as hostile.

When there's a documentary made against the PT by those that dislike it, you know disdain has gone too far and taken over. It's even touched on in 'The People VS George Lucas'.

You're a whole saga fan so I'm sure you'd know if I was on the right track, - is my theory in the post above yours likely or true in any form?

First of all, is there anyone that likes the Prequels, but doesn't accept/like/love the Original Trilogy? Again, I don't think MOST Star Wars fans really draw the lines. They don't have separate rooms for us at conventions.

I mean they are all part of the same thing/story/etc. For me, it's not because it's factually a "better" Trilogy, it's because it's what made me a fan in the first place. Again, I urge you all to read Roger Ebert's review of the Phantom Menace. It's first few lines are brilliant and so on point.

Secondly, let me put it like this:

OT only fans often comes across exactly like-

-Your dad saying "Back in my day music was real music."

-Your Grandpa saying "Johnny Unitas, now there was a REAL athlete."

-Your hipster cousin saying "Dude, this underground indie band that no one has ever heard of is the only RELEVANT music, not that crap on the radio."

-Anyone ever saying, "Oh, the book is soooo much better than the movie."

Basically, it comes off as smug and arrogant when it is completely subjective and boils down to preference.

In reality, we are still just arguing about spaceships, princesses, laser swords, muppets, cgi monsters, and fantasy BS that we own and buy all the merchandise for even though we claim to "love" or "hate" or "know about" it more than anyone else.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Solidus

Funny enough I think meh of the PT I own all of them, from DVD and Blu-Ray. So that may say something. I see more PT fans call us "non Star Wars fans" then the other way around. Many of the OT people attack George Lucas and not necessarily the fans.

You own all of the Prequels? What about not just buying because of a brand? :-) When you read your Star Wars Insider do you skip past anything dealing with Star Wars from 1999-2005?

See? You are an overall Star Wars fans who is VERY apt at picking apart the Prequels. The fact that you own them says a lot. Later, gator. :-)

I'm giving you my impression, not an assumption. If I can come in, expose myself to Star Wars fandom online in the form of PodCasts, YouTube videos, 90 minute reviews, endless comments, forums, news articles, debates and even documentaries for months - and come out with the impression that those that passionately and vocally (key word) oppose the PT are more mean-spirited in general - then that does say something. And I do get the impression that many that are hostile to those that oppose the PT have likely been conditioned to be that way - and I think everyone knows why.

If you're trying to say "Both sides are equally bad" then I call that a false equivalency. I got the steady impression that one side is generally worse than the other.

If those that dislike the PT had moved on after a year or so and not waged a war on the films and Lucas (and occasionally the fans of the PT themselves) then I highly doubt 'Entire Saga' fans would be as hostile.

When there's a documentary made against the PT by those that dislike it, you know disdain has gone too far and taken over. It's even touched on in 'The People VS George Lucas'.

I just disagree, and to me it's scratching the surface. If you are really doing a research project I figured you would look deeper into it. Impressions are one things, but looking into it deeper is different. Are you really writing this or was your purpose to get this debate going?

You would not know if the fans would not be as hostile. How has it gone too far? If the documentary has a lot of lies or things wrong I would say okay. But I think many feel these documentaries have solid stuff behind it. Again they are attacking the films and the creator as you would if someone made you a poorly constructed chair. It's again they attack that. While the PT guys attack those that attack the films instead of actually try to debate against it as much. To me who's right and wrong with the fighting? I dunno. But I think that a lot of these OT people have good thoughts/ideas behind them, and great criticism. Passionate? Yes. But still valid points.

Can they not do that? Is there negative people in there? Yes, but again you are looking at the extremes. They are on both sides. To me you've shut your ear on one side, just because one side is louder, does not mean they are necessarily the negative/evil ones.

There are many like myself, especially on these boards, they talk mainly about just the actual films. Like I've been doing and regwec and Jamiestarr. However Jedi-spirit came in and made some harsher points about how we are just haters. Again he attacked us, not our arguments. Get where I'm coming from?

First of all, is there anyone that likes the Prequels, but doesn't accept/like/love the Original Trilogy? Again, I don't think MOST Star Wars fans really draw the lines. They don't have separate rooms for us at conventions.

I mean they are all part of the same thing/story/etc. For me, it's not because it's factually a "better" Trilogy, it's because it's what made me a fan in the first place. Again, I urge you all to read Roger Ebert's review of the Phantom Menace. It's first few lines are brilliant and so on point.

Secondly, let me put it like this:

OT only fans often comes across exactly like-

-Your dad saying "Back in my day music was real music."

-Your Grandpa saying "Johnny Unitas, now there was a REAL athlete."

-Your hipster cousin saying "Dude, this underground indie band that no one has ever heard of is the only RELEVANT music, not that crap on the radio."

-Anyone ever saying, "Oh, the book is soooo much better than the movie."

Basically, it comes off as smug and arrogant when it is completely subjective and boils down to preference.

In reality, we are still just arguing about spaceships, princesses, laser swords, muppets, cgi monsters, and fantasy BS that we own and buy all the merchandise for even though we claim to "love" or "hate" or "know about" it more than anyone else.

You own all of the Prequels? What about not just buying because of a brand? :-) When you read your Star Wars Insider do you skip past anything dealing with Star Wars from 1999-2005?

See? You are an overall Star Wars fans who is VERY apt at picking apart the Prequels. The fact that you own them says a lot. Later, gator. :-)

Well with the Complete Set, you got all the special features for the OT, with the Trilogy by itself you did not. That and I'm a collector with films, and I like having em all. But again, I am giving an opinion on it, and not just a biased one where I just want to hate things.

As for the rest, again then what is the point. Roger should not have reivews at all. Because all those you described is people giving opnions. So it's almost you've contradicted yourslef. And saying it's just the itnernet, again that's your opinion and how can you know otherwise? Again there is a mass opinion on things does it make it right or wrong? Well that is subjective, but there is a mass opinion to a point. Again I was a kid when I saw this, I'm far form a hipster, ask Cal and many other people on these forums, I'm usually the one defending things. This is a rare exception. (maybe because I'm more passionate about Star Wars ) So in some ways maybe since it was aimed more at me as you say...I have more of an interesting view point yes?

Good talk though.

Quote:

Originally Posted by TheDevilIsMe

Exactly my point when I refer to those that defend the PT as those who 'Love the whole saga'.

And most fans may not draw lines, but the ones on the internet do which is who I'm mainly talking about.

I don't think the internet is some alien thing. Many normal people will rate things ect. Like I said earlier, Rottentomatoes User reviews, there is one million reviews almost for each of the Star Wars. And there is the massive difference. So are some of them these fans yes. But a million is a lot of people, and I think is a mixture of a little bit of everyone.

Exactly my point when I refer to those that defend the PT as those who 'Love the whole saga'.

And most fans may not draw lines, but the ones on the internet do which is who I'm mainly talking about.

People draw lines about everything on the internet. That's what I am saying, you go to one of the Star Wars Celebrations and everyone is dressed up as all iterations from both trilogies, all the shows, EU, and no one is getting into nerd fights, nor fist fights.

Again, George Lucas was onstage and they gave the mic to audience to ask whatever. Not one nerd got the guts to call Lucas out on How "he wrecked Star Wars" "Raped childhoods" or "Made crappy Prequels".

I just disagree, and to me it's scratching the surface. If you are really doing a research project I figured you would look deeper into it. Impressions are one things, but looking into it deeper is different. Are you really writing this or was your purpose to get this debate going?

You're basically holding up a standard of research that is impossible to achieve - what else could I possibly have done?

How do you suggest I look any deeper? If I had come out with a perspective you agreed with, you'd take no issue with how far I supposedly delved, I'm quite positive.

I didn't turn a deaf ear - but when one side is hammering on for ages and with plenty of vitriol, it does mean something and if it gives off an impression that is not properly representative - then that is not the fault of the observer but the fault of those shoving that image.

When I say "That's the impression I get" keep in mind I'm trying to be humble and not be mistaken for "making assumptions".

And plenty of normal people rate films online, I agree and this can pretty much validate a consensus of opinion - it's not an alien thing. But people with YouTube accounts making dozens of posts a day, people with thousands of posts on IMDB, SHH, TFN, etc...those are quite distanced from the general population.

If someone posts that "Most movie-goers hated the PT" - nobody says a word, nor do they ask if that fan "Called/Mailed/Faxed" everyone who went to see it.

Suddenly if the opposite is written - the guy saying that suddenly needs to have called/mailed/faxed everyone for opinions or else that statement is invalid.

Lack of criteria/Sweeping generalizations only work one way, is that right?

Dude you've seen one movie. How are you going to criticize a fan base when you haven't seen 85% of the saga? I've only seen like two James Bond films I am in no way able to laud those who hated the Pierce era. You are at no more liberty to judge anyone who likes or dislikes the prequels. You've made it very clear from the time of your first post you strongly believe the PT fans are the poor victims hounded by the relentless and cruel OT fans so why do you even bother? If you are really that worried that people won't like the 7th installment in a series you've seen almost none of, then just don't become a part of it.

You own all of the Prequels? What about not just buying because of a brand?

I can't speak for him....

I personally own all the STAR WARS movies because I like them all. But I am also a collector of various genres of movies. There are things in my collection that I don't particularily like and some I actually hate....but I'm a collector, so I have them. I have a copy of the SW Holiday special.....I'm a collector.

Dude you've seen one movie. How are you going to criticize a fan base when you haven't seen 85% of the saga? I've only seen like two James Bond films I am in no way able to laud those who hated the Pierce era. You are at no more liberty to judge anyone who likes or dislikes the prequels. You've made it very clear from the time of your first post you strongly believe the PT fans are the poor victims hounded by the relentless and cruel OT fans so why do you even bother? If you are really that worried that people won't like the 7th installment in a series you've seen almost none of, then just don't become a part of it.

Didn't I already explain directly to you why I avoided the films purposely on the first page? Reading comprehension helps, Ben.

I said that was the impression I kept getting. Nothing more...nothing less. I'm not clueless about the franchise, the stories and the critiques.

What you just quoted was me pointing out the fact that generalizations seem to only be okay going one way. It's a flaw in someone's consistency of argument.

Well with the Complete Set, you got all the special features for the OT, with the Trilogy by itself you did not. That and I'm a collector with films, and I like having em all. But again, I am giving an opinion on it, and not just a biased one where I just want to hate things.

Dude, I am just teasing you. Don't have to justify anything to me. I get it. I own the Superman box set. Think I love Superman III and IV? I don't.

Quote:

As for the rest, again then what is the point. Roger should not have reivews at all. Because all those you described is people giving opnions. So it's almost you've contradicted yourslef. And saying it's just the itnernet, again that's your opinion and how can you know otherwise? Again there is a mass opinion on things does it make it right or wrong? Well that is subjective, but there is a mass opinion to a point. Again I was a kid when I saw this, I'm far form a hipster, ask Cal and many other people on these forums, I'm usually the one defending things. This is a rare exception. (maybe because I'm more passionate about Star Wars ) So in some ways maybe since it was aimed more at me as you say...I have more of an interesting view point yes?

I can value, listen to, and appreciate your opinion...even if I disagree with it 100%. I don't have to fight you. Do you not get that? It's not about right or wrong. Its about seeing things in different ways, and noticing all the angles.
Again, I am not fighting a battle and to me, there is no conflict. See what I did there?

Quote:

I don't think the internet is some alien thing. Many normal people will rate things ect. Like I said earlier, Rottentomatoes User reviews, there is one million reviews almost for each of the Star Wars. And there is the massive difference. So are some of them these fans yes. But a million is a lot of people, and I think is a mixture of a little bit of everyone.

It is not some alien thing. Its just not comprehensive enough and a niche audience really does most of the posting/responding.

A million is not a lot of people in terms of the entire movie viewing audiences in the world. Is it?

You're basically holding up a standard of research that is impossible to achieve - what else could I possibly have done?

How do you suggest I look any deeper? If I had come out with a perspective you agreed with, you'd take no issue with how far I supposedly delved, I'm quite positive.

I didn't turn a deaf ear - but when one side is hammering on for ages and with plenty of vitriol, it does mean something and if it gives off an impression that is not properly representative - then that is not the fault of the observer but the fault of those shoving that image.

When I say "That's the impression I get" keep in mind I'm trying to be humble and not be mistaken for "making assumptions".

And plenty of normal people rate films online, I agree and this can pretty much validate a consensus of opinion - it's not an alien thing. But people with YouTube accounts making dozens of posts a day, people with thousands of posts on IMDB, SHH, TFN, etc...those are quite distanced from the general population.

Thousands of accounts? Nah. I think some just use that. I think that there are haters and lovers that fight on it, but the majority out of a million are actual people using it, not multiple accounts.

I just am questioning things. Because you said you knew nothing of this stuff, and now you claim you've seen RLM ect. I'm just starting to question what is this you are asking now? You joined in December, but brought this up now? But you are not a fan? Not that there is anything wrong with it, but I'm just questioning this. At the beginning of this post just a few days ago you said you knew nothing. But to me you've made up your mind quickly with knowing nothing at first.

No I would not because I agree with it or not. To me I've spent more time in these forum realms and seen vitriol as bad on both sides TFN is a perfect place of that. Tons of Star Wars 1977-2012 avvies ect.

I just am questioning what is this paper for? What is it's purpose? Why did you come in saying you knew nothing of it except seeing one film, and wanted to keep it this way, now you've said you've watched all the RLM things ect.

Thousands of accounts? Nah. I think some just use that. I think that there are haters and lovers that fight on it, but the majority out of a million are actual people using it, not multiple accounts.

I just am questioning things. Because you said you knew nothing of this stuff, and now you claim you've seen RLM ect. I'm just starting to question what is this you are asking now? You joined in December, but brought this up now? But you are not a fan? Not that there is anything wrong with it, but I'm just questioning this. At the beginning of this post just a few days ago you said you knew nothing. But to me you've made up your mind quickly with knowing nothing at first.

No I would not because I agree with it or not. To me I've spent more time in these forum realms and seen vitriol as bad on both sides TFN is a perfect place of that. Tons of Star Wars 1977-2012 avvies ect.

I just am questioning what is this paper for? What is it's purpose? Why did you come in saying you knew nothing of it except seeing one film, and wanted to keep it this way, now you've said you've watched all the RLM things ect.

I've taken a look at RLM, of course. It was integral to getting to know the critiques.

I never said I knew nothing. In my original post I make it a point to say I will watch the other 5 films in order to be fully literate on the continuity more than I am now, and in that first post I openly stated this;

Quote:

Originally Posted by TheDevilIsMe

I know alot about the films, the characters and such from reading about the films over the years - but I've still yet to see five of them.

And I wrote my paper about a year ago for an introductory film studies class - we were discussing critical success and target-audience consensus versus financial success and which means more to a franchise/studio's future - and we were free to write anything related to it so I chose to cover a fanbase and their divided opinions on two different hemispheres of a franchise and how it affects the integrity/success of the brand to the studio.

I think people are forgetting that the impression I had was up for contesting - but if you want to erase a huge amount of negative fanbase infighting I exposed myself to - I'd need more than "Well...both sides are mean" if you understand what I'm saying. I'm basically trying to get posters like you to prove to me that my impression was wrong and why.

People also forget that my main point was to discuss "...how most fans feel about the film - what is the general consensus on the idea of "New Star Wars"?"

But it's turned into "Who is meaner?" and "Who is the majority/minority?" type thing.

I personally own all the STAR WARS movies because I like them all. But I am also a collector of various genres of movies. There are things in my collection that I don't particularily like and some I actually hate....but I'm a collector, so I have them. I have a copy of the SW Holiday special.....I'm a collector.

Same reason I own all the Halloween/Friday the 13th/Nightmare on Elm street films. At least a third of each series I don't care for, but because theya re in the series, I want to collect them. Doesn't mean I am buying Halloween: The Board Game, or Friday the 13th: the Flamethrower though.

I've taken a look at RLM, of course. It was integral to getting to know the critiques.

I never said I knew nothing. In my original post I make it a point to say I will watch the other 5 films in order to be fully literate on the continuity more than I am now, and in that first post I openly stated this;

And I wrote my paper about a year ago for an introductory film studies class - we were discussing critical success and target-audience consensus versus financial success and which means more to a franchise/studio's future - and we were free to write anything related to it so I chose to cover a fanbase and their divided opinions on two different hemispheres of a franchise (c

I think people are forgetting that the impression I had was up for contesting - but if you want to erase a huge amount of negative fanbase infighting I exposed myself to - I'd need more than "Well...both sides are mean" if you understand what I'm saying. I'm basically trying to get posters like you to prove to me that my impression was wrong and why.

People also forget that my main point was to discuss "...how most fans feel about the film - what is the general consensus on the idea of "New Star Wars"?"

But it's turned into "Who is meaner?" and "Who is the majority/minority?" type thing.

Okay, but I'd say on both sides you have seen passion but civility in most of the conversation. I attack the films, not the people themselves. So to say you made your mind up would say you think I'm just being a loud angry yelling Youtube type of guy? I'd say that's not my case. I am passionate and have my reasons why I don't like it but most of us don't turn and yell at the fans that like it calling them names ect.

As for the Episode VII thing? I am beyond excited, It has given me spark of Star Wars I have not felt since 1998. I just feel back into it, and I have very high hopes with the team behind it. I think they will create something that will make "most" (you can never have universal) fans embrace them.

I just read the first post in this thread.....and decided it needs closing.

The starter says he spent a whole week studying STAR WARS fans (I unfortuantly have only studied them for 18 years, so I'm not sure I have as much expertise on the subject as he has) and decided that they were

Quote:

Originally Posted by TheDevilIsMe

I have never quite seen a fanbase so divided, angered, upset, whiny, nitpicky, devoted, polarizing and downright crazy