Oh South London is non discriminatory in terms of the human detritus that exists there. All the creatures there, regardless of creed or colour, are human waste, sent there to rot by the rest of civilisation.

I mean, if Satan were given the option of living in Camberwell, he would prefer to stay in hell.When the flu epidemic hit london this year, it had to get a south london vaccine to protect itself.

Seems like there is A LOT misunderstanding going on here. And still there is a lot assumption going on, what's not getting us anywhere. Some argue on their personal level, some argue on a macro-society level. Some bring personal experiences, some are thinking about social theory. That's different fields that can't be discussed against each other or compared in any way. That I am treating everyone equal is a good thing and is beyond all question, but it won't contribute very much to a change in society, where unequal treating and discrimination is standard. It will just contribute my own personal behaviour.It's not me making skin color, gender, ... an issue. It's the society. It's big and real. And it won't become unreal because of just me treating everyone nice (what I'm doing and again, what's beyond all question, btw.). So to me it's about acknowledging and dealing with this social reality. This is what I'm doing and I'm considering it as ONE aspect in my booking, instead of ignoring it. I'm also considering cash, arrival, overnight accomodation, ... because i have to. Would you say everyone in big companys should just be nice to each other and this would be enough to change unequal treatment of women there? It would in your personal environment, but not much more. Would you say #metoo is shit and it should left be, because it makes discrimination visible? You have to face discimination and it's strutures and powerful impacts, when you want to do something about it. You have to make it visible, discuss it and show that it's ignored/ invisible/ not acknowledged in most cases (what's often a big problem for people affected by discrimination, they're facing relativisation of their experiences, victim blaming and so on). It's about hung-up social structures that have to be broken, about distribution of social ressources, about access to goods, services and rights for everyone, about being able to participate like everyone else and so on. Not concidering this would lead me to a major white male booking with very good music, where I'd have a nice festival, but also replicate the discrimination that's going on out there. Even if i was treating everyone gently. And again and as my last statement: why is the idea of not having a major white male booking that important to discuss, that there are six sides filled in that short time? Yes i know, it should be about music, not something else. And you're right with this, same opinion here. It should be. But it sadly isn't only about music in most festival bookings, clubs, raves, .... It's often about names, sex, profit, access to the right people, that know someone that knows someone. Or at least affected by this. That's what I'm against, because it clealy prevents a lot of raves of being raves where everyone let's loose and can be free. And for sure, if I'm not after a bigger political impact I'm doing good with underground raves, reaching my scene here, where i don't have to worry that much about discrimination. That's what I'm doing on a local base, too, for years now. Sorry, but my english is pretty bad when it comes to sociology, politics and stuff, so I'm not easily able to explain what my exact position is. Being exact is pretty important in this. Without it'll only lead to misunderstanding or assuming wrong point of views again and again. Over and out, need my energy to plan a festival .

postscript: we're gonna build a crashed UFO as dj-booth, where the dj's will be located only on the side of it and not in the focus of the crowd. the idea goes the way that the djs can see what's going on, but to not have a herd like dancing crowd facing the djs.

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Last edited by Root on Tue Jan 23, 2018 7:50 pm, edited 3 times in total.

I might be ignorant and out of the loop, but to what extent does the underground techno scene have a problem with racism and sexism? Or are we just talking about equal representation of minorities, women etc?

I might be ignorant and out of the loop, but to what extent does the underground techno scene have a problem with racism and sexism? Or are we just talking about equal representation of minorities, women etc?

I can't speak for racism but ask basically any female DJ and they can tell you endless tales of sexism straight out of some chauvinist 50s fantasy. I have heard some crazy stories. There are a LOT of guys out there that think that women have no business DJing, especially when it cames to harder, "male" music like techno. To be fair most of it does come from random drunk punters although it also exists with other DJ and promoters. I think they tend to be a bit more subtle about it than drunk bros at the club though.

That said women are more likely to get booked on the underground level than comparable male DJs (A-list festivals is still almost exclusively men). They also get criticized a lot more though. Female DJs get a lot more scrutiny when they screw up, whereas with men everyone is used to bad male DJs so people don't really care as much. Not everyone has tough skin, DJing in front of hundreds or even thousands of people is enough pressure as it is. I can see why many would fold and not pursue DJing further.

I think y'all are overthinking this a bit. Love techno but it can be a bit stale and same-y. One of the reasons I find the new cohort of female DJs/producers so exciting is that it broadens the horizon of perspectives people bring into music. And yeah, women can face a shit ton of sexist bullshit that the rest of us just don't see (or shrug off) because it doesn't affect us. I don't believe in positive discrimination but I do believe in giving a signal boost to people who may have to overcome more barriers than the average bloke. (And not just by race or gender, also by where they are from, how they came up, whatever.) You can do that without getting into quotas or different standards or whatever. It's all good.

I think y'all are overthinking this a bit. Love techno but it can be a bit stale and same-y. One of the reasons I find the new cohort of female DJs/producers so exciting is that it broadens the horizon of perspectives people bring into music. And yeah, women can face a shit ton of sexist bullshit that the rest of us just don't see (or shrug off) because it doesn't affect us. I don't believe in positive discrimination but I do believe in giving a signal boost to people who may have to overcome more barriers than the average bloke. (And not just by race or gender, also by where they are from, how they came up, whatever.) You can do that without getting into quotas or different standards or whatever. It's all good.

I think y'all are overthinking this a bit. Love techno but it can be a bit stale and same-y. One of the reasons I find the new cohort of female DJs/producers so exciting is that it broadens the horizon of perspectives people bring into music.

I used to believe this, but I am not so sure anymore. Does being female necessarily bring in a new perspective to a music style that is primarily instrumental? I am not dismissing this notion, but I like to hear some examples. My feeling is that cultural background, creative ability and personality factors play a much larger role.

Female DJs get a lot more scrutiny when they screw up, whereas with men everyone is used to bad male DJs so people don't really care as much. Not everyone has tough skin, DJing in front of hundreds or even thousands of people is enough pressure as it is. I can see why many would fold and not pursue DJing further.

It's a tough game. And everyone that is starting gets scrutinized by the top alpha dogs. It has always been like that. Back in the 90s any top DJ acted like an idiot whether the newcomers were male or female. But I would suspect that tough-minded female DJs act somewhat the same (maybe using other, subtler, tactics) and are just as succesful as male DJs. And as you say, the underground scene might even favour female DJs at the moment.

I think y'all are overthinking this a bit. Love techno but it can be a bit stale and same-y. One of the reasons I find the new cohort of female DJs/producers so exciting is that it broadens the horizon of perspectives people bring into music.

I used to believe this, but I am not so sure anymore. Does being female necessarily bring in a new perspective to a music style that is primarily instrumental? I am not dismissing this notion, but I like to hear some examples. My feeling is that cultural background, creative ability and personality factors play a much larger role.

Experiencing life differently = a different perspective. And yes, women generally experience life differently than men. Is that the only difference that matters? No, of course not. But techno has always been culturally/nationally/racially diverse. It has never really been gender diverse. Now it feels like techno is opening up in a way it wasn't too open before, and that's always a good thing, in my opinion.

I honestly don`t feel anything opening up at all that wasn`t open in the first place.It just feels a little forced and more strongly marketed now.Maybe you weren`t aware of the amount of women in the scene because you weren`t "in" the scene as such, but there have always been plenty of women working away (and it is kinda insulting to them to think otherwise).Now everything is on fucking farcebook, and everyone gets their new weekly black and white promo headshots done, you might be more aware of it, but nothing has really changed.It has become a trend to market, so you are now seeing it marketed, that`s all. Techno is commercial as fuck now. Look at drum and bass when it was the hot shit in dance music, plenty of women were in that game then.Once whatever the latest hot topic has superseded "Look evvry boddy...Wimminz" you`ll see the next bullshit in your weekly RA feed.

I honestly don`t feel anything opening up at all that wasn`t open in the first place.It just feels a little forced and more strongly marketed now.Maybe you weren`t aware of the amount of women in the scene because you weren`t "in" the scene as such, but there have always been plenty of women working away (and it is kinda insulting to them to think otherwise).Now everything is on fucking farcebook, and everyone gets their new weekly black and white promo headshots done, you might be more aware of it, but nothing has really changed.It has become a trend to market, so you are now seeing it marketed, that`s all. Techno is commercial as fuck now. Look at drum and bass when it was the hot shit in dance music, plenty of women were in that game then.Once whatever the latest hot topic has superseded "Look evvry boddy...Wimminz" you`ll see the next bullshit in your weekly RA feed.

Every time i try to explain this to people, my point automatically gets dismissed and i am classed as a sexist, misogynistic male who is 'part of the problem'. This mainly comes from the crowd that strongly follow R.A, mixmag etc - which are all heavy on the social-justice side of things.

I honestly don`t feel anything opening up at all that wasn`t open in the first place.It just feels a little forced and more strongly marketed now.Maybe you weren`t aware of the amount of women in the scene because you weren`t "in" the scene as such, but there have always been plenty of women working away (and it is kinda insulting to them to think otherwise).Now everything is on fucking farcebook, and everyone gets their new weekly black and white promo headshots done, you might be more aware of it, but nothing has really changed.It has become a trend to market, so you are now seeing it marketed, that`s all. Techno is commercial as fuck now. Look at drum and bass when it was the hot shit in dance music, plenty of women were in that game then.Once whatever the latest hot topic has superseded "Look evvry boddy...Wimminz" you`ll see the next bullshit in your weekly RA feed.

Dude, you've known me on techno boards for well over a decade now, and we've had plenty of conversations about how things were back in the '90s. So I think you *know* I'm not some new guy on the block who doesn't know shit from shit about how things have been. But in my experience, in Detroit, New York, London and LA, it's always been 90+% dudes at the DJ/producer level. Why? Probably a complex set of reasons, ranging from sexism to maybe women are just less interested in this kind of thing (I'm not commenting on why). I'm just saying that, for me, more perspectives going in makes music more interesting going out. And there certainly seems to be more interest in female DJs right now than any point I can remember.

I like what I'm hearing right now from some female producers, like Peggy Gou and Amelie Lens. I find their music refreshing and interesting--and of course I would if they were dudes as well. Good music is good music, no matter who makes it--and the same goes for bad music or bland music. Something isn't good or bad based on who made it. It's good or bad if it's good or bad. That said, I just tend to find music more interesting when there are more different kinds of people (along any number of axes) putting their own stamp on the template.

It's like, a few years ago I discovered there are some really fantastic science fiction writers from Africa. They publish in regional journals, and while some write in English, others don't. But then a couple anthologies were compiled, including translations, to be sold in Europe and North America. If they were shit stories, then whatever. But these were good stories, so it's *great* that someone decided to give them a signal boost. To me it's that simple. If someone is doing good stuff, and maybe it's a bit harder for them to get noticed, then there's nothing wrong with giving them a signal boost.

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