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Topic Review (Newest First)

10-01-2012 11:19 PM

flyingriki

Re: Seller agreed to offer, but set a clause,"no discounts after survey"

Quote:

Originally Posted by Squidd

That's like negotiating best price on a new car and "then" asking how much for my trade in...

It's EXACTLY the way I negotiate for a car -what's the problem? Why pay too much? They can always say no.....

10-01-2012 09:34 PM

sailordave

Re: Seller agreed to offer, but set a clause,"no discounts after survey"

Well, I have two experiences to relate. Almost bought a (boat) spring of 2011. Was a little leery of the seller to begin w/ due to the circumstances and he really was pushing to complete the sale. I wanted to get a survey (which he said would not be grounds to renegotiate). I was happy w/ that as it was a good price. I just wanted to be sure the boat was as advertised and had no inherent, serious defects. Found out that the rudder was completely delaminated as well as the cored transom soaked. And being the rudder had had the bearings replaced just a couple years earlier he had to know. ( I found out later that was the case!) While the survey is ongoing, he's calling me to find out when it will be over, how soon can he get the $$$, he REALLY needs to get this deal done. He also was telling me that he was selling to concentrate on family issues, his mom was sick, kids, etc.. blahblahblah. I was already pissed b/c he wasn't straight w/ me about known defects.
I had a call in to someone I knew could give me a straight answer on the approx. cost to fix the few things the survey turned up and I told the seller this in the late afternoon. Told him I would have an answer in the morning but I was still intending to go through w/ the deal; I just wanted to know what I was getting into. He went ballistic, ranted, raved, yelled. To his credit he did call back later w/ an apology.
However, I went home and thought about it and decided I didn't NEED this boat and I didn't want a boat that came w/ that bad karma and if anything else turned up I'd be pi$$ed at myself. Told him to take a hike. Found out later that the whole time he was working the deal w/ me and I was lining up a surveyor he was playing someone else too! Oh, and he was selling and had to get it done b/c he was buying a bigger boat! Which I saw him in later that summer. Glad I walked.

Now the boat I DID buy several months later... Having looked at a LOT of boats that were in crappy condition, I called the broker and he told me it was a one owner boat and the guy was an engineer, the boat was in really good condition and he told me what was lacking- windlass, dodger, refrigeration. I said okay, wife and I flew up to see the boat.
Having been around boats, worked on boats and read the boat buying trip thread here on SN decided things looked pretty good. Ended up making an offer and came to terms. Flew back up for the survey. Turned out my impressions were spot on.
BUT the survey did turn up some things I would NOT have known about. Need overcurrent breaker, galvanic isolator, new propane line. Few other minor things. Needed them done before launching for insurance purposes. I had these things done up north at a cost of about $1500. Otherwise a fine boat. We did ask for some relief on the price b/c of the survey but the owner said no. I was okay w/ that; never hurts to ask. I could have walked but the boat really was (is) a nice boat and it was a fair deal.
Do your research, know what you're looking at and take your time. Don't let someone rush you into a deal. Boats are NOT a necessity.

10-01-2012 07:13 PM

Jgbrown

Quote:

Originally Posted by Minnewaska

True, particularly for the lowest price surveyors that charge by the foot. Buyers should learn to pay sufficiently that they can do a thorough job.

My current boat took two guys a day and a half. You don't get that for a fixed price per foot.

Expense is no qualification in my books.
If looked at hourly, I paid around 200$ an hour for my surveyors time. Official company and everything. Considering he was surveying a boat with manual everything, single ac outlet, 6 thru hulls and one light, with no liner to get in the way, it's amazing he was able to find ways to spend the few hours he did take. Even more so that he missed everything from the non functional sea cocks(they spin but don't close), to the misrepresented engine, batteries and the delaminated mast beam and tabbing.

When it comes time to sell her, I will be quite happy to wait for a buyer who appreciates the condition she'll be in then. The buyers who want to bend me over a barrel and squeeze every nickel they can out of me will be more than welcome to learn the hard way as I did, on one of the mis represented boats because I'll be selling a solid well equipped boat at a fair price based on the market at the time.

The 10k(at least) for me to get her there is my cost of my learning, but if a buyer is going to use a padded survey to beat me down in price then I'll be happy to refund their deposit and keep the boat a bit longer.

Sent from my SGH-I747M using Tapatalk

10-01-2012 06:15 PM

Minnewaska

Re: Seller agreed to offer, but set a clause,"no discounts after survey"

I would love to bash some unscrupulous sellers for a minute. I had one that I went to see that didn't have the dinghy, nor the sail inventory as advertised. How does one misrepresent these? They weren't described incorrectly, they didn't exist.

Before I went to even look at another, I learned that it had run aground at full throttle and all but tore the keel clean off, buckled the hull and took on two feet of water. All repaired, but wold have been discovered as undisclosed upon survey. I actually found out when calling a surveyor to get lined up. He knew the boat's reputation.

10-01-2012 06:12 PM

Sumner10

Re: Seller agreed to offer, but set a clause,"no discounts after survey"

Quote:

Originally Posted by davidpm

...That fact that you were upset that the boat was misrepresented is not really important to anyone including you as you bought the boat.

Because we bought the boat doesn't mean that it wasn't important and it did cause us to be upset at the time to the point that we just about walked. Yes we bought the boat and did negotiate some on the final price but where do you draw the line on what is acceptable and not acceptable in the terms of what is represented in printed advertisement and by the broker. We found the boat on the internet and then talked to the broker and asked about the items in question.

I would of much rather of looked at MS's boat than going to look at a boat that the seller or broker or both either intentionally misrepresented or misrepresented due to sloppiness. The problem is that it isn't always so easy to tell from a phone call and the actual advertisement if you are being mislead. There are people spending a lot more than we did to go look at boats that the same thing has happened to and it isn't right if it could of been avoided.

I'm not trying to pick the add or what they told me on the phone apart for the sake of a lower price, but from the standpoint is it worth my time and money to go look at the boat in the first place. Yes we ended up buying the boat so you can say the broker won on that point. Would we of still gone and seen the boat in the first place if it was represented factually. Maybe not, maybe yes, and there were other boats we could of driven to,

Re: Seller agreed to offer, but set a clause,"no discounts after survey"

Quote:

Originally Posted by denverd0n

I've had my butt saved by a surveyor on more than one occasion, who caught something that I missed--something that the seller HAD to know about, had not disclosed, and that would have cost THOUSANDS to fix!

Mind sharing what exactly was found that caused you to skip the boats?

10-01-2012 05:45 PM

davidpm

Re: Seller agreed to offer, but set a clause,"no discounts after survey"

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sumner10

Then we drove 500 miles round trip to look at the boat we did end up buying and it was advertised with a dodger and bimini, both in shreds and the dodger you couldn't even mount to the frame. Then there were 2-3 items advertise like the swim ladder that didn't even exist.

The above quote says it all.

If the broker gave you all the information over the phone you would not even have looked at the boat according to your own comments.

That fact that you were upset that the boat was misrepresented is not really important to anyone including you as you bought the boat.

Not saying you did anything wrong I'm sure you discounted for the missing items.
Hard to fault the broker though he did sell the boat and that is his job.
PS, I would have been annoyed too.

10-01-2012 05:00 PM

Sumner10

Re: Seller agreed to offer, but set a clause,"no discounts after survey"

Quote:

Originally Posted by denverd0n

.....Too often the pictures turn out to be years old, from before the boat began suffering from neglect. Too often the "9 out of 10" turns out to be more like a 3 or 4 at best. Too often the boat that's on the hard, but promised to be in "sail away condition," is actually not even safe for a sea-trial, let alone sailing away anywhere!

How true. We drove 500 miles to look at one boat that looked wonderful in the pictures and I couldn't even believe it was the same boat. The broker did nothing to indicate that the boat was in nowhere near the condition represented in the photos.

Then we drove 500 miles round trip to look at the boat we did end up buying and it was advertised with a dodger and bimini, both in shreds and the dodger you couldn't even mount to the frame. Then there were 2-3 items advertise like the swim ladder that didn't even exist. Was it just outright deception or merely the broker not doing his job and confirming if the items existed or were even functional.

If we ever buy another boat and travel some distance to it I won't go unless the broker guarantees that all items listed are actually on/with the boat and are somewhat functional. If they aren't I'd sure like to figure out a way that they at least paid our gas ,

Re: Seller agreed to offer, but set a clause,"no discounts after survey"

Quote:

Originally Posted by Minnewaska

Post survey adjustments should be reserved for either undisclosed or unexpected squawks.

I agree. The problem for the buyer is that all too often there are a LOT of undisclosed squawks.

I have to say that the sellers who have chimed in on this thread do not strike me as "average." That doesn't surprise me. The very fact that they participate in a forum like this indicates that they put more time, thought, and just more of "themselves" into their interest in boats and boating than the majority of boat owners.

So, the folks on this forum--I suspect--are more likely to be honest about the condition of their boat when they sell it. Beyond that they're more likely to take care of it and have a boat in better than average condition to sell.

As a buyer, though, who has studied websites, talked to brokers and sellers, and who has put in time, effort, and money to go and look at boats, I have to say that most sellers are not quite that honest.

Too often the pictures turn out to be years old, from before the boat began suffering from neglect. Too often the "9 out of 10" turns out to be more like a 3 or 4 at best. Too often the boat that's on the hard, but promised to be in "sail away condition," is actually not even safe for a sea-trial, let alone sailing away anywhere!

I've had my butt saved by a surveyor on more than one occasion, who caught something that I missed--something that the seller HAD to know about, had not disclosed, and that would have cost THOUSANDS to fix!

I would have to estimate that somewhere around 3/4ths of the boats I have looked at, there has been some sort of significant deception on the part of the seller and/or broker. Is it any wonder that buyers are suspicious, and attempt to negotiate for every little thing that they can? I would happily deal in an open and honest fashion with every seller that I meet--if only I could. When 3/4ths of them are trying to take advantage of the buyer, though, can you blame the buyer for coming to the table with the expectation that he is going to have to try to do everything possible to take advantage back?

I know I sound very cynical. I wish it wasn't so. I have absolutely treasured the few boat purchases I have made where the seller turned out to be honest with me (same for the few car and home purchases that were likewise). I hope for it every time. I embrace it when I find it. But experience forces me to proceed cautiously and with a fair degree of suspicion until the seller's honesty has been confirmed.

You honest sellers out there shouldn't blame us cautious and suspicious buyers for that. Instead, blame all of the other DIS-honest sellers out there who force us to be that way!

10-01-2012 02:20 PM

Minnewaska

Re: Seller agreed to offer, but set a clause,"no discounts after survey"

Quote:

Originally Posted by CharlieCobra

Surveyors miss stuff routinely. Learn to be your own surveyor.

True, particularly for the lowest price surveyors that charge by the foot. Buyers should learn to pay sufficiently that they can do a thorough job.

My current boat took two guys a day and a half. You don't get that for a fixed price per foot.

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