Friendly Debates

Since there has been a lot of interesting debates recently, I thought I'd start up a thread just for such debates (that way the fan thread participants and those wishing to debate (regardless of their shipping/fan preferences) don't get offended, but can come on here and have a roaring good time talking about all the things they love and hate about all ships, all characters, all films! Everything is welcome, but try and keep it nice and friendly. Debate away, mates!

katelovespirate

Here's something i want to be debate about.

if YOU really had to choose between elizabeth and bootstrap, or between the love of your life and your blood relative who ditched out and broke your mom's heart, which would you pick?

i believe in family and all, but i'd go for love of my life.

Sifzensinril

I'd go also for love of my live, because if he ditched out once, how can I know he won't ditch out again?

SelinaAndBruce

Originally posted by katelovespirate
Here's something i want to be debate about.

if YOU really had to choose between elizabeth and bootstrap, or between the love of your life and your blood relative who ditched out and broke your mom's heart, which would you pick?

i believe in family and all, but i'd go for love of my life.
True but Will was a man of his word. So I understand why he had to do what he did. Besides he didn't plan on saving his father in that way he got killed and that was the only way he could conceivably achieve both goals and really Captain Jack Sparrow heroically made the decision for Will

willofthewisp

It's a hard one to ponder, Kate, because (I hope) we all have good relationships with our dads and that none of them have ever left us. I think had I been Will, I still would have promised to help him...not stab Davy Jones' heart, though. I'm not that poetic when it comes to murder. It would have been nice to see a scene where Will confides in Elizabeth about his dad since when he first mentions it, she doesn't react to it at all. But if I found out I had to be the captain of the Flying Dutchman in order to save my dad that left me and made my mom raise a child by herself, I would probably make the love of my life the top priority and help whatever other way I could.

SelinaAndBruce

The thing is I think Captain Jack Sparrow could have freed Bootstrap too so I don't think it should have ended with Will having to do it except he got killed.

katelovespirate

Well, it's difficult because they really tried to make bootstrap out ot be a pathetic tragic figure who was depending on WIll in that one scene with elizabeth--- and then three seconds later, he kills one of the best characters in the series, who had already been jilted and pummeled around a lot by our other leading characters.

SelinaAndBruce

Originally posted by katelovespirate
Well, it's difficult because they really tried to make bootstrap out ot be a pathetic tragic figure who was depending on WIll in that one scene with elizabeth--- and then three seconds later, he kills one of the best characters in the series, who had already been jilted and pummeled around a lot by our other leading characters.
I agree with that I did not like Norrington much as I said but he did not have to die that way that was stupid and I didn't get why Bootstrap did it I was like what is his problem?

aelizabeth

Well, I think part of the reason Will promised to rescue Bootstrap WAS because he never met him. Bootstrap is his claim to piracy fame, he has heard so much about him, and has been told he's so much like him. He likely wanted to get to know him. And when Bootstrap saved will during the dice game, it sort of sealed the deal.

The biggest "...What!?" moment in the whole movie for me, besides the calypso crab ordeal, was when bootstrap killed James. It was random and apparently out of character. Or at least that's what i thought.

IheartPocky

Yeah, Bootstrap killing James was sad because he wouldn't have done it if it if he was sane still. He was being taken over by the ship because he had been on it so long. It's like he was possesed almost.

willofthewisp

Oh agreed, pocky, agreed. When you stop to think about it, it's very easy to feel sorry for Bootstrap and even though he abandoned his family, he stood up for Jack when no one else would, so he doesn't deserve that fate. But in that moment, you don't feel sorry for him, you feel sorry for James. The guy just saved Liz and a bunch of pirates and confessed his love. It's out of a girl's fantasy where a guy poetically says he loves her and risks his life for hers.

katelovespirate

Sometimes I wonder, if James wouldn't have died (GRRRRR) what would have happened between him and Elizabeth?

maybe I'm just playing Surreal here, but I think that there would have been an open door perhaps. I mean, Elizabeth just got into a massive fight with Will and ditched him on the Pearl, basically handing him over as a traitor to the other pirates (we never do analyze that scene enough--- and we should) and more or less saying she's ready to sell her body to Sao Feng (or at least, agree it might come to that) to save herself and get them out of that last scrape. She's obviously still pretty angry at him, and then here she is, trying to hold her own as captain after almost being raped and who should show up but Knight in Shining armor James?! Looking dashing and playing the hero, no less.

And she's like, "James, come with us... come with me." and then doesn't seem at all averse to the kiss with him... hehe. personally, i think his survival may have complicated things for Will and Elizabeth. it's too bad she didn't realize what a catch he was before he died.

willofthewisp

Subtle hints that maybe James was the best choice for her after all. She obviously didn't get the greatest ending with Will and didn't open herself up to having one with Jack...or he didn't open up to having one with her....whatever. The deleted scenes in COTBP show Elizabeth had a soft spot for him and she felt like she should love him and he definitely had a lot of qualities she admired. But she thought he was lacking in some areas. And we can assume she learned he did possess those qualities in DMC when he went pirate briefly. And, to top it all off, he never stopped loving her or putting her first. He wasn't thinking about a possible future with her on the deck of the Dutchman. He was thinking about making sure she'd live.
It's an interesting thing, Kate. Maybe when you're done analyzing the films as sparrabeth you can do norribeth. Little things are everywhere to imply they would be more successful than her and Will or even her and Jack.

sailorleo

Originally posted by katelovespirate
Sometimes I wonder, if James wouldn't have died (GRRRRR) what would have happened between him and Elizabeth?

maybe I'm just playing Surreal here, but I think that there would have been an open door perhaps. I mean, Elizabeth just got into a massive fight with Will and ditched him on the Pearl, basically handing him over as a traitor to the other pirates (we never do analyze that scene enough--- and we should) and more or less saying she's ready to sell her body to Sao Feng (or at least, agree it might come to that) to save herself and get them out of that last scrape. She's obviously still pretty angry at him, and then here she is, trying to hold her own as captain after almost being raped and who should show up but Knight in Shining armor James?! Looking dashing and playing the hero, no less.

And she's like, "James, come with us... come with me." and then doesn't seem at all averse to the kiss with him... hehe. personally, i think his survival may have complicated things for Will and Elizabeth. it's too bad she didn't realize what a catch he was before he died.

oh god kate, I KNOW!!!!! I'm still pissed about that...and any ending is better *nearly any* than the one he got, oh well I guess it gives a story line for his spin off that T&T will make about the adventures of Sailorrie ((they will make this or i will...do not nice....things////i can be very annoying...))

texgodiva2s

He really doesn't seem interested in the offer when she says come with us--not until she says come with me. Is that how Jack did it, to raise his crew--found those that were "in love" with him one level or another and just kept adding more--the crew owns the captain, the captain owns the crew--what a bizarre love unilateral triangle? Heckydo, I don't know.

Also, I said this before and it's still bugging me: Jones got 'hired on' to ferry the dead, promised !?! by Calypso, who then didn't be 'there' when he got the one day--he petitioned the brethern court (no king then) to bind her in her bones, taught them how--pillow talk intell? and then he cuts out his heart, burries it up etc. So how come Will's heart got removed--filleting himself was Jones' gig, some real bad testerone poisoning, gender defect--not a prerequiste of captaining Dutchman, was it?

SelinaAndBruce

I felt bad for Norrington because he loved Elizabeth and she really overall I don't think didn't care t hat much about him. They had too many people fawning over that character though. That was annoying.

willofthewisp

Lol, Everybody Loves Elizabeth.

Tex, it's one of the many problems with the curse. I don't get it either.

texgodiva2s

Ta Willowisp, it's good to know I didn't totally fail supernatural goofiness 101. Lord, when I have more sense than the guys what wrote it? Now that's disturbing. Oh, the baby Barbossa--good grief, I fell over laughing and then got twisted....with this crew it gnarly, it's knotty, it's never dull!!

piratexrory

Originally posted by willofthewisp
It's a hard one to ponder, Kate, because (I hope) we all have good relationships with our dads and that none of them have ever left us. I think had I been Will, I still would have promised to help him...not stab Davy Jones' heart, though. I'm not that poetic when it comes to murder. It would have been nice to see a scene where Will confides in Elizabeth about his dad since when he first mentions it, she doesn't react to it at all. But if I found out I had to be the captain of the Flying Dutchman in order to save my dad that left me and made my mom raise a child by herself, I would probably make the love of my life the top priority and help whatever other way I could.

Agreed. Well, except for the fact that I don't have a good relationship with my dad, and that yes.. he's left me for some other brat..
I would have chosen "love of my life" too, instead of father - but maybe I'm basing things on personal experience. Meh, I don't know..

texgodiva2s

I loved my daddy bunches--and we had some major issues, but the deal is aren't we supposed to leave our homes of origin and go to be with tha person with whom we will make a new home--boy, yucko, that sounds way Biblical--probably is. The who has dominion over what/who usually goes back to Bible or English law in my history. Who knows--

I want to ask and I don't know if here is the spot, however--on the spit of land during the parlay (AWE), Barbossa calls Jack blackguard I understand. Then they do that nose to nose thing where Barbossa says "if you've got something to say, I might be saying something back" and Jack says "okay first to the finish then?" What was that all about? I have racked my pea brain for what went on? haven't been able to make a serviceable answer yet. So, I appeal to the court, what say ye pirates?

willofthewisp

More vague writing, tex. That's what it is. Lol. What I think happens in parlay is that Elizabeth catches on that Will and Jack have an understanding. She learns that whoever stabs the heart will be the captain of the Dutchman, thereby defeating Davy. She also sees that Jack wants to do this, so she makes the exchange. What I think happens is that Barbossa figures this out too and sees what's going on. He doesn't want Jack to leave because they need his Piece of 8 to release Calypso (his plan). So I think, "if you got something to say" means "I'm onto you" and Jack says "First to the finish" meaning that he has his plan to be immortal and cheat death forever and Barbossa is just going to have to figure out a way on his own. So then Barbossa nabs the Piece of 8 and lets Jack do his thing because Elizabeth made the order and she is king.

willofthewisp

I pose this question: if you were Will and were dying there on the Dutchman and felt Jack move your hand to stab the heart, would you do it, or would you use your last bit of strength to resist that and just die?

T.Maria

me personally?

i would stab it... but i just dont like the idea of missing anything important or amusing, so death is pretty much a really big inconvenience for me

As to your question: Now that's a plait stroker, innuit? I know right now in my comfy chair typing this I would very grandly say--no way not me I'll just go on my merry way to the great whatever. I also know that human nature being what it is that no one will ever give over if there is any straw at which one might grasp--not good bargins, just desperation. So I vote no, I'm into the ebb and flow, seasons of life time space river. I can' see forever being a good thang--I keep seeing that scene from the original Highlander, when his Scottish wife says remember me on my birthday and he says "aye, Blossum". I don't think I could bear that kind of lonliness. Good question as usual I suppose it's okay to think in the middle of the week. lol

SelinaAndBruce

I think the only reason Will wants to live is to be with Elizabeth. Which makes it kind of sad he can only see her once ever 10 years but I guess better than never seeing her again at all.

Would I stab it? Well I don't like being out to sea too long I get motion sick and I don't want to be with Elizabeth forever so, prolly I wouldn't lol.