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just from a toronto fans point of view i like this trade to a certain extent. it would hard to give up vince and all that he brings, but the need for depth is far more pressing. the raps would gain above average quality depth at two of the hardest postions to get it for, the 4 and the 5. also at the same time they would get rid of rose's contract. as well if the raps trade away vince they need someone to fill his shoes as far as pr goes and the only players that have as good of chance of selling in canada are nash and magloire.

i know a lot of people doubt vince's abilities, but i have been able to watch every game he has played in over the last couple of years and when he is healthy he can score 30 points more easily than anyone in the league. of course the knock on him is that he is always hurt. last year he was hurt, but the injury he had was a cheap shot from bowen that would have put anybody out.

as for rose he is not a cancer perse, just someone who wants to win at all costs. no doubt he is a chucker and complains to the refs all game, but he is a creative passer and has a great post game. with rose and vc, the hornets 1,2, and 3 would be the best in the league. it's just too bad they give up there front court to do it.

as for bosh, there is no chance he will be leaving toronto for a long time. the only reason the raps feel they can trade vc is that they think they can build around bosh and have him as the franchise player for years to come. personally i don't think this trade was ever really seriously discussed, but more just put out there to gauge value probably by both teams.

we need to see the positives out of this proposed deal...think about media attention this team lacks huge, think about national TV appearences...think about full capacity crowds for at least 82 games...

think about the most spectacular and best backcourt in the entire legue with BD and VC...and Rose can be dealt elsewhere for some ecent big men...the more i think about it the more i want this deal to go through...

PJ is on the bad side of the 30's...JMag is young and promising with lots of upsides, but he wasn't intimidating and no one really feared him down low...everyone is replacable in some kind...

maybe the deal will somehow go through with some other players!? it seems like the HORNETS aren't interested in that way...

1) VC wants out. Toronto is in no position to dictate terms of that trade. They're not going to get players of equal or greater value for VC who's grumblings weaken Toronto's trade postion. Moreover, the Hornets are not going to trade JMags for VC, maybe PJ and DW, but JMags won't be close to that deal without Toronto giving up their young bigs.

2) Toronto is in no position to take advantage of VC's trade demand to try to dump Rose's bad contract - see #1 above. Toronto's the one looking to make the move, so they pretty much have to decide whether to take what other teams offer rather than dictate what other teams take.

3) If Toronto wants to trade VC and Rose to the Hornets, then there's no way that deal gets done unless Mash is part of it and you don't get PJ and JMags.

Really simple when you look at it. Toronto is in no better position than L.A. was with Shaq - if L.A. had to settle for a lesser trade to move Shaq, then Toronto shouldn't look for any better.

AGHF - if Toronto can't move Rose without trying to force him into a VC trade, what makes you think the Hornets could?

Originally posted by Saints Fan in A Actually, they have all of the control and can dictate terms. They have him locked into a contract that he can't opt out of. They trade him on their terms or they don't trade him at all.

Furthermore, we can't trade in injured player and that is what Mashburn is. Teams watched the Magic get burned with Grant Hill. Not going to happen unless he's healthy.

While they can control whether or not they accept a trade, they're the ones in the position of looking to deal a disgruntled player, teams know this and are not going to offer the best deals - Toronto doesn't have to accept any of these deals, but then they're the one stuck with the disgruntled player and the other teams can smell the blood in the water.

Originally posted by JPHesterly Everyone keeps saying how Mags in untouchable. Nobody in the NBA is untouchable. Ask shaq. But now here's where we are stuck between a rock and a hard place. Do we keep mags and make the playoffs again with lukewarm attendance and no excitement? Or do we risk being out of the playoffs with VC but selling out the arena everynight and making this team a "big" deal in the big easy. I want this team to succeed period. Whether its in attendance or wins, i'd choose wins. But this team has made the playoffs twice in N.O. and still no excitement around the team or in Louisiana. I'd pull the trigger. I'd rather have an exciting team than be 8th place and lose in the first round. We will not win a championship with Jmags and BD. Sorry, but we just won't.

Well said, I couldn't have put it better! Why dont others realize thsi!?

As much as I really, really, REALLY want to get rid of Magloire, there's no way the offseason can be finished if we make this trade. Birdman is NOT a center and emphasized that in his interview upon signing with the Hornets. We'd have to be guaranteed we could get some sort of center somehow.

I don't know, from what I heard for Toronto to match Mo Pete's offer they'd have to trade off Vince Carter I could be wrong though. If that's the case then there may be something valid to this. I was wanting David West to take over from P.J. late in the year last season so I don't mind losing P.J. J-Mag we'd have to get Dampier to agree to the MLE for it to work, he may be agree to a short contract to play on a team with the kind of talent New Orleans would have after acquiring VC and Rose. I'd have to think hard about this deal. I would guess it has to be done by Saturday if that's the deadline for Mo Pete. I know they say they are matching Mo Pete but I don't see how unless they actually trade Vince Carter, I guess we'll see in a couple days.

Toronto matching MoPete is in no way connected to a VC trade. The Raptors don't gain any cap space by trading VC to the Hornets b/c they have to take back equal salary. The only way to gain cap space is to trade to a team under the cap and Toronto apparently is not looking to do that, or has not drawn any interest from those few teams.

Every person who is against this trade, they would say if we found a decent replacement for Mags, then they are happy with it. If the Hornets sign or traded for a good center, then this trade all of a sudden becomes more than fair.

Fact is, value for value, this trade is a steal for the Hornets. I personally don't want to give up PJ also, but the money can be tuff.

Look, let's put it this way. Whether it's after the trade, next year, maybe two years from now, players will change. The question is, is a trade of Jamal Magloire for Vince Carter a fair trade. It's not even close. Magloire isn't taking us anywhere. Shoot, since when has he been able to cover Yao Ming, or Tim Duncan anyway. Ming destroyed him.

Vince is 27. BD and Vince Carter give us a bright bright future. Who's to say we couldn't get a sign and trade for Eric Dampier afterwards? Does that trade all of a sudden make this one more fair?

The NBA rule: A team needs two stars, however that may be, and then a handful of role players. Baron Davis and Vince Carter are both top 10 players in this league. How many teams can boast that??? Let's try not to be short sighted on this one. Not having a solid 5 may hurt for a year, but the chance to get Vince Carter or a player like him may never come again.

I ask also, would you trade Jamal Magloire for Baron Davis? This is an easy question people.

Trueblood is going to have to clarify this, but the problem with trading for Araujo is that he can't be traded until mid-December b/c he just signed his rookie contract. I'm not sure of the specifics, but I recall seeing this somewhere - maybe in one of Trueblood's posts. It wouldn't change my opinion that we would need him and/or Bosh if JMag was a part of the trade, it just means the trade would be delayed.

There's no way you can have dominant starters at every position. Right now our 2 and 3 is weak, with a strong 4 and 5.

A PJ/Mags deal would weaken the 4 and 5, but the benefits gained in the 2 and 3 would be much, much better, I think.

If we could somehow do a deal with Mash and then either Pj or Mags, we should do it in a heartbeat, because then we are upgrading the 2 and 3, while only weakening the 4 or 5.

BD
Rose
Vince
PJ
FA

or

BD
Rose
Vince
West
Mags

These two lineups are much better than anything we could do right now. Yes, any FA center is not going to be anywhere near as good as Mags was, but the tradeoff we're getting at the 2 and 3 more than makes up for the loss.

Ok look, I'm sick of everyone saying we can't trade Magloire. Like Spaniard said, we can sign another center. I hate to tell everyone, but the West isn't exactly overloaded with great centers. Tim Duncan is a power forward.. the west hhas Yao Ming and Brad Miller. Everyone is still so obsessed with teh fact that we have to have a top notch center to succeed in the West. Well I think we don't. Either way, I don't think Magloire would be a top notch center ANYWAY. He's heavy footed, gets all our garbage points. That's why he scores 13 a night. Anyone notice that his only move in the post is that stupid wimpy hook shot? I've said that at least 10 times on these boards. I like Magloire but I dont' think we need him as much as you guys say. LET'S JUST SIGN A FRICKEN CENTER WHO CAN REBOUND!!!

Another thing, Jalen Rose.. I don't like him, don't get me wrong. But he DID make it to the Finals with Indiana, which means it's not impossible to succeed with him being a part of the team. And about Vince Carter.. I don't know. But if this trade involves Mash, I say make this trade and get another center. Because like someone else said, we ain't gonna win with just BD and Magloire.

HEY!! I NEVER said that we would give up Mags AND Pj.. That deal is just fricken ridiculous. If that's the only way we can make this trade then screw it. Find another one. Also, if we can't get rid of Mash, we can ALSO screw it. I don't care who we get, we're getting rid of Mash and we're keeping at least one of our starting big men. If the Raptors think we're going to trade PJ and Mags then they should just go to hell.