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There have been so much interest in these skills here lately that I think these posts deserve a thread of their own. If that is OK with admins I will start by moving here related posts I have under 'Cristina's Swami Xpress' thread ... Maybe copy and paste here and delete them from there .. ?

I do have the Nourishing Traditions recipe and many others from the net which I have not tried yet, but my permaculture teacher makes the most beautiful, tasty, light fermented bread, so I am following her recipe adapted to my type:

Mix together in a bowl until all lumps disappearcover bowl with tea towel tied with rubber band to the bowlset it on top of my ip phone box overnight (another nice and warm spot)

Now so that I do not get mixed up and forget later one, the smaller bowl is the one with the water starter, the bigger bowl (both stainless steel), is the one with the soy milk starter. (Tie the string to the finger!!)(shhh)

Posted by: Lola, Wednesday, June 30, 2010, 5:40am; Reply: 3

I ve been having great results fermenting my sprouts!!!yes, unbelievable yet true!I simply process these with sea salt......let ferment a few days, voila!

I can also use a batch to add to my focaccia if need be, or simply make a sourdough fauxmanna with the fermented sprouts......experimenting is such fun.

Posted by: Lola, Wednesday, June 30, 2010, 5:46am; Reply: 4

lol.....just mentioned two in one a while back....you won t get any precise amounts from me, sorry....I cook by ear>>>>>>>lol or should that be by touch?? ;)

I do an all inclusive if I feel like it......for me it s just having fun.......happy it turns out right.....

Posted by: Cristina, Wednesday, June 30, 2010, 6:49am; Reply: 5

Thanks Lola, you are the inspiration pushing me on!! I know you have been doing this for many years and are living proof everything works!! One step at a time though, I am getting the feeling how these little creatures should look like, what the different smells, colours textures produce, moving things around my kitchen to make it all flow much better ... fermenting sprouts is on the cards soon!!! ;) :)

Posted by: Cristina, Wednesday, June 30, 2010, 7:19am; Reply: 6

Shall we make it fermenting and sprouting for our type then? ,,, have just the one thread instead of the two? :) ;)

Posted by: Munchkin76, Wednesday, June 30, 2010, 8:28am; Reply: 7

Cristina

Thanks for starting this thread! I've always been curious about sprouting and fermenting, but have never really got my own experimentation off the ground so to speak. Just received my kombucha tea brewing kit yesterday, so am very excited to start brewing this fine beverage again (used to brew my own many years ago when I was still living in Brissie).

Those were stainless steel bowls, I have since, transfered the mixtures to glass jars, to keep an eye on their progress, easier to see. The one with the rubber band has the soy milk mixture, the other one has the water mixture.

I am suppose to stir them every so often and leave them ferment for a few days, watching their texture, smell ..

Strangely enough, after a few hours, the water mixture has thicken up a lot more than the soy milk mixture, yet, at the start, the water mixture was a lot more runnier than the soy milk one. :)

Both mixture shown a few bubble holes indicative of some activity. I have given them a couple of stirs so far ...

Smell wise, I do not notice any difference between the two, they both smell floury/yogury to me ... :)

After a good 21hr brewing (may be not the right word to use, but cannot think of any other now), I noticed that the soy milk mixture has developed an oily liquid layer on top, it has thicken up a bit, but not as much as the water one. No changes in the smell of either. Also I should point out that the water mixture is a lot whitish in color than the soy milk mixture. They both had a good stir and I will probably leave them alone until the morning. :)

Getting on the third day since I started the 'starters'. I think the cold weather is not very encouraging for the little pets to do their thing!!

They both still smell nice and look healthy. The soy milk base starter developed a bigger layer of oil at the top. I have now removed this layer, I believe it to be the oil they use on soy milk!! As expected it floats to the top forming a barrier (which we do not want) between the mixture and the air. So, oil out, I will keep on removing it as more builds up at the top.

Makes me think how much oil is in these commercial milks!! It pays to do your own, but I ran out of beans and they did not have them at the shop last time I went! Bonsoy milk should not have this problem, but I was finishing off the other brand milk I had, not thinking about the oil content ... Too late now, lets see what comes out of it ... :)

So at this stage, the water mixture is still thicker. I transfered it to a bowl, as instructed in Nourishing Traditions, feed it some more flour (1 cup) and more water (1 cup), stir it and back into the glass jar it went.

I also added a bit more flour to the soy milk one, but not water because it is soupy enough compared to the water base one ... Hope this is making sense. I will summarize everything at the end ... :)

PS: feel free to chip in with comment if you tried something similar before and want to share ides ...

Well, 2:00am and here I am after the soccer fanatics at home spent the night watching the first game of the world cup. To their disgust I went to bed before 9:00pm!! But here I am now, sipping a cup of tea and taking this opportunity to attend to my two new pets: soy milk and water fermented bread starters!

What a difference a few hours had made!! My rescue efforts for the soy milk one had worked wonders!! The water culture has actually outgrown its jar, bubbling happily away, multiplying beautifully!! The soy milk one, all of a sudden has woken up and in gratitude for me liberating them from that 'gulf type' oil barrier have double in size and is also bubbling away!!

I need at least 3 quarts of each culture to make the breads, so I will keep on feeding them until desired quantity is reached. I added one cup of flour and one cup of water to each culture and whisk away to smooth the flour in nicely. Since I do not have big enough glass jars (take shopping note), they are now sitting in two stainless steel bowls bubbling away ... (cone base bow with soy culture, rounded bowl with water culture, they are both fairly similar in color, texture and smell, sign that the lactic creatures are doing their job? digesting their medium and producing what they are meant to ....)

Cristina, I need to start a water culture sour dough for the man, who can't use soy or milk (Explorer) ..hoping to gain confidence from your trial. Is what you are doing a fairly routine sour dough process? I made a spelt loaf from your recipe, adjusting some of the proportions, ie less molasses, more yeast, and it is nice, funnily enough rather like sour dough bread even though it is yeasted. It is much denser than my usual wheat bread. I love my breadmaker, so much fun, and the smell is delicious. One small loaf lasts me a week. :K)

Hi Jenny, glad you are enjoying your Spelt bread. My family loves it!!! But now with Metta not being able to have any wheat, I think that it will be safer to have the fermented one in the house in case she gets tempted. It may be less damaging for her ... and certainly a lot more beneficial for the rest of us!

Regarding density of the yested Spelt bread, I have not been able to reproduce the lightness of that one in the picture from the other day. Mind you, they are all still nice and light !! I think that it may have something to do with the yougurt I use. That first week I use a yogurt that had a lot of whey sediment, it was the end of the yogurt tub! Since I have been using new yogurt tubs where the contents are a lot more creamier and less wheayish, if you get the idea ... :)

The water culture I am trying is very similar to the Nourishing Traditions one, except that they use Rye flour and that is not compliant for some of us.

The Soy one is based on some I have done before many moons ago, but using real cow's milk. it is my first experiment with soy milk. Still using cow's yogurt though. ;) :) Will keep posting the process ...

So far I have added 3 cups of flour to the starter. This morning I took some pictures of both starters before and after adding one more cup. So the photos in the glass containers are from just after adding the 4th cup of flour.

They both started with one cup of flour, but as you can see by the photos, the soy milk one (in the 2 litre water jug) has outgrown its water counterpart in the glass 2 litre container (1litre = 1 quart). The soy milk one took off the moment I removed that oily film (remember? from the oily soy milk a few post back). They are both doing well, considering how cold it is here. They have outgrown their location on top of my warm router, so they have been sitting on a filing cabinet in the warmest corner of my office space, away from drafts ...

Once they reach the 3 litres stage, I will make the breads!! One or two days at the most ... all going well ...Going to photobucket to add the photos and then PS: them here...

These little creatures are really happy!! The soy milk one has gone berserk!! It has overgrown the glass jar! The water base one has about 4cm about 2" of bubbles, a bit slow but very active too. Check the photo:

So, back to a bigger stainless steel bowl they go, I do not have any glass containers big enough to hold the 3 litre (3quarts) mixture!! I transfered them to the bowls and added the 5th cup of flour. This is great, I was expected to only add this tomorrow, but although it has only been about 8hours since I added the 4th cup this morning, they are growing so well, so I keep them happy by feeding them good stuff: flour and water (Yes, remember, everytime I add a cup of flour, I also add same amount of water). At this rate, I will be making fermented bread tomorrow night!!!These are the photos taken immediately after whisking in the 5th cup of flour. The bowl with the wider rim is the one with the water mixture.Of course they are covered with light material to keep them safe from foreigh matter, but still allow the goodies in the atmosphere in my home to home in the mixture and chump chomp chump ;D :)

I'm up to 24 hours on my starter..I am using only spelt flour and bottled water, and keeping it in a glass jar in a yoghurt maker..have to use that as there is no where else in my house that has regular warmth, and we have been going down below freezing regularly in Canberra this past week.It seems too hot in the yoghurt maker actually, but if it is alright for yoghurt, surely it would be ok for the natural yeasties?.Not much action yet, but I see a few bubbles.My question is, how much of the starter do I use when I eventually get to use it?My guess would be that I use it instead of the water quotient in the recipe, of course eliminating the dried yeast quotient. Would this be right?I will also be attempting to create a diffent time sequence on my bread maker so that there is an extended raising/ punching cycle.

yogurt airtight container? mmmm, the whole idea is to allow the air bacteria to get to your culture, the good stuff will find its way to your starter and get it bubbling soon enough. If yogurt maker is airtight, it may not be enough air, only what is originally in it? Suggestions for warm places: Maybe inside the oven with the light on or on top of your coffee maker with a plate in between, or put the slow cook on low with water in it, the lid upside down, place a couple of plates on it and sit the starter on top covered with a cheesecloth or a dishcloth (using a rubber band to hold the cloth so nasties will not get in) ...

I will keep the starter in an airtight container in the fridge when I want it to be in dormant mode, waiting for the next batch of bread making ...

That is my understanding ...

Regarding how much did I make/use, I am explaining that in the next post, reporting on my bread making / preparation day today!!! I spent the day in the kitchen (well part of it) getting things ready, kneading, forming loaves, creating warm places to rise and cleaning up ....

Ahhhh, so satisfying .... My arms are so grateful for the exercise too!! :)

This is for yesterday. Sorry I did not get to report earlier or took pictures of the start of the 6th cup stage (had visitors at home ...).

Anyhow, at some stage during the day yesterday I got around to my two pet colonies and fed them the 6th cup of flour and water as usual. Stir away and leave them alone again to do their job. That's it!! No more cups to add, tomorrow (today) is bread making day!!

This morning I checked my two starters and they both looked like they peaked at some stage during the few hours prior and then collapsed, as expected! They had this wine like aroma, not overpowering, but a hint of it and also, as you can see in the photo, they have this liquid layer underneath the top thicker layer.

My efforts of the last few days, have produced me two batches of about 1.5 litres (1.5 quarts) of starters. Ihave put aside in an airtight container about half a litre from each to keep them in the fridge until next bread making attempt in a few days time.

With the 2 x 1.5 litres starters I proceeded to make the breads (next post) ... :)

Nourishing traditions calls for 13 cups of flour, I think I ended up with about 10 cups in my mixture.

I disolved 1 tablespoon of coarse salt with one cup of water in the starter and then added the flour a couple of cupfuls at a time, kneading it in to form a lovely, elastic, silky soft dough, enough for two big loaves:Each starter mix with flour, after about 20 minutes of pounding, kneading, turning and now ready to be divided into loaves, bread rolls ... :)

I was stuck!! My loaf pans are too small, and not enough of them (I only have one!! :o) I knew I forgot something!! I was meant to buy them but Woolies only had small ones, meant to search somewhere else!!

So I improvised, I took a thick baking tray and using a glass garlic bread type of dish in the middle, I created a pseudo two loaves oven tray.

;D ... and after 3 hours resting, as you can see the glass dish did not do such a good job of staying in the middle, sort of collapsed on top of one of the breads: ;)Anyhow, after about 1 hr baking at 350F (180C - just under 200 in my oven), I finished with two beautiful, although uneven shaped loaves. BTW, we have not cut them yet, but tasted the bits that fell off when removing the glass dish and it is yummy!!! ;D

This is just the soy based starter, check next post to see what I did with the water based starter: :)

I decided to use the breadmaker for half and a muffin tray for 12 bread roll with the other half!Although I had already knead this though, I pop half of it in the bread container for the machine and set it to just knead. The machine did it for about 1 hour and then I let it rest for another couple of hours. After about 3 hours altogether, I let the machine bake the bread (bake only setting). It did it automatically for 45 minutes!! at the end of which I got this:

Sorry for the quality, but I think I have overworked the camera and it is needing to be recharged!! If the bread last that long, I will try again tomorrow for better photo. ;D

And here are the 12 fermented bread (muffin) rolls:Except that there are now only 9!! DD tried one and she is now grabbing two more: another one for her and the other for DGD. DD had tried fermented bread before elsewhere and could not eat it, she loves this one, even without butter! But with Ghee is delicioso!! Baker in the house !! ;D ;DThis is now the end of this project, I hope it has encouraged others to try ... :)

Cristina, I have not had the lid on the yoghurt maker, I understand about the need for it to be exposed to the air. In fact I really don't think any cover should be required. After a couple of days, there is very little progress using wholemeal spelt flour and pure water, so I may have to start again, perhaps with white flour and some yoghurt after all. I am printing off your reports so that I can refer to it once I start making some progress. :-/

Jenny, I thought you would!!! I agree with you on the no cover, but out here, I have to, otherwise pesty little insects, even this winter time, can get residence in no time at all!! If you can use rye flour, nourishing traditions uses that for their starter. I used organic, white spelt flour which I get from either Woolies, or a wholesaler natural organic shop in 5kg bags! Rye is black dot for us, so I used Spelt. According to my process it also took a couple of days before i notice any activity ... But if you say it is bubbling, then it could still be hope ... How many cups of flour have you added already?

Too much heat kills the bacteria, so make sure yogurt maker is not too high ... Feed them a bit more flour and water and put them somewhere else ... they may have their favorite spot! They seem to like it in my office corner, on top of the filing cabinet behind me ... :) no artificial heating in here, just the warm feeling emanating from this forum ... ;D I must be radiating it to them too ;D

I can't alter the temperature on my yoghurt maker, it is fixed at just above blood temp. But this may be too hot. No, it is not really bubbling at all. I only add a tablespoon of flour every day because the container is so small, and I keep the moisture level at about unwhipped cream level.There is no where else in the house that is consistently warm because overnight we drop to freezing or below, and I don't leave the heater on at night.Perhaps I need to get a pet electric blanket pad!!!If nothing has happenned by tomorrow, Thursday, which will be about 4 days, I will start again with yoghurt and rye flour. There must be a solution to this, but I have yet to crack it. ::)

4 days without activity, may be a bit too much, I am surprise it has not gone sour? I suppose the freezing temps may keep the mixture from deteriorating ... Yes, you need to find a warmish place in the house ... bed side table? with a cosy wooly cover on top, like you get for traditional tea pots? ;D You'll figure it out ... crafty warrior and all ... ;) ... the battle is on and those creatures do not know what is coming to them if they do not start working soon!!

BTW, my long loaves produced about 32 slices of bread each, the one from the breadmaker about 14, so I have been slicing them and bagging them in batches of 4, 6 or 8, before they get too dry and crumby!! I should have done it early this morning but, we had trades people setting up the concrete slabs for our new sheds. Lots of activity here, hoping it will not rain tomorrow so they can pour the concrete!!!

what temperature would you say is optimal? (ie what I have been doing in my freezing climate is having the yoghurt maker on 24 hours at a warm temp which as I said is hotter than blood temp)Next to my bed would drop to maybe 8-10 degrees Centigrade overnight.thanks for the vote of confidence Cristina.Yes I am battling on, but don't know how long my patience will last!!!

Jenny, my ambient temp here is about 12 (considered freezing), mostly around 16C in winter, it escalates to mid twenties in summer. So, it seems my battleground is in my favor here! :)

Have you considered crock pot or slow cooker, it will not help during the night, where the babies will go into dormant mode, but if you wrap them well then, and then during the day use the top of a crok pot on very slow, with a few plates in between the lid and your babies, well covered, it may help ... ??)

or even on a plate on top of the yogurt maker without the lid (the plate holding the jar with the babies become the yogurt maker lid?

Jenny, some more warm places I know from making yogurt without a yogurt maker:

Next or on top of your hot water system, in the oven with the pilot light onput glad wrap over the top sometimes might hold any heat inarmpits ha ha

On another thread recently re: probiotics Lola had the brilliant idea of using a blood type specific probiotic to start your own homemade yogurt. Probably a very healthy for you sourdough could be started the same way. Lola's idea :)

Great loaves there Cristina, they look delicious. Recently made the best spelt loaf so far (with yeast) and made sure it was sticky (previously I've been adding more flour to stop it sticking to my fingers and everything and they had been too dry). Are you sure that spelt can be kneaded that long? I thought kneading has to be at a minimum to prevent the gluten being stretched too far and falling in again (though I love to do it too! - great for the heads and the head)

Did you make your loaves with just white spelt? I've been mixing half and half wholemeal and white and love the flavor and the lightness that you get from both. Got a bulk pack of wholemeal spelt and it's lasting a long time along with the packets of white spelt from woolies (yeh glad they have it eh). The sweet taste of spelt is so nice! Put some nutmeg, herbs in and some ghia seeds ontop of my last loaf. Little additives change the flavor dramatically.

Made pizzas this week with spelt too but they didn't rise so well as it was about 15 (freezing for brizzie) was lovely anyway. When I was rising the bread it also took longer as drafts stop it rising. So had to put it in the oven on the lowest temp possible (for rising).

Just a quickie Symbi because the family is getting ready to watch Avatar on box office and I have not booked it yet!!

Yes, I kneaded it it for about 20 minutes manually and the one on the machine got another beating with the machine, forgot how long for!! So, figure that one out!!! My bread did not fall down as you can see by the pictures. I have also heard about the gluten thing and kneading too much but of course, I did not remember it then!!!!

yes, i only use white Spelt flour, only because I wanted to make sure about this process first, then I will experiment with combinations and flavours later... Your suggestions sound very yummy!!

Come back later ... :)

PS: the gluten thing, is it that if you knead too much it makes the bread crumbier? too dry? I noticed mine had the perfect consistency on the first day, not as moist and dense as other sour breads I have seen or cooked before, but nice and lighter. It did not crumbed down when I sliced the bread the next day either ... Maybe because I used white Spelt flour only. ..

Next time I will bypass the machine extra kneading and see if I get same result with the machine baking. I do not think I will knead for less than 20 minutes manually for any of the loaves, they have to be kneaded until you get that elastic, silky soft texture ... I got my kneading worked out, got the skills from grandma, grew next to her making home made bread and baking it in the clay wood ash oven outside, every Sunday, for the whole week ... :)

Symbi, you are so cute..have done the yoghurt maker to death, will try the pilot light today.Love Lola's idea of the probiotic..what lateral thinking!!!My spelt loaf (yeast based) collapsed yesterday in the bread machine..I think the mixture was too moist, but it still cuts up nicely, and tastes as good as ever.Must away to another day of activity and scientific work with the bacteria.It would be good to have a precis of Cristina's discoveries for simple application for beginners in the sour dough arena...I know its all there in the messages, but just one final summary would be great if you don't mind pal? ;)

Sure Jenny, I thought about it, will work on one today, now that the youngsters are all out for most of the day (holidays here today: show day!! - have you had yours yet?).

I will do the summary, we all try the process a few times ( different people) and then post it in recipe central. BTW I also find some of the book instructions a bit cryptic or too assuming, ending up doing things totally different to what is intended ... Good in these forums, we can keep checking on each other ... I love your feedbacks, I learnt so much from hearing you all saying things and from reading countless books ... :)

Ingredients:1 cup bonsoy milk (too impatient to wait for my beans to be ready to milk!!)1 capsule Polyflora (for your type)1 stainless steel saucepan (just big enough to warm the cup of milk)1 yogurt maker (or any other device you have to keep the mixture warm)1 glass jar big enough to hold your milk and place in yogurt maker. I do not like using the plastic container the yogurt maker came with. I gave those to my DGD to play. I much rather use recycle glass jars! 1 small glass or ceramic bowl to act as the 'lid' for the glass jar inside the yogurt maker

The Process:

The first 4 dot points indicate how I sterilize my glass jar using microwave. You can substitute with your own sterilizing method (pressure cooker, boiling, etc). The rest of the instructions indicate how I start the process of yogurt making using yogurt maker

Select glass jar where to make yogurt (I recycle one of those big mayonnaise jars I used to get )

Fill jar with water to about half an inch (2cms) from the top

Place jar in microwave and nuke for 5 minutes at full power

Let it cool down for a few more minutes while preparing milk and then discard water

warm milk in saucepan to just below boiling point (just when bubbles start forming on the side)

Place warm milk in warm steriled glass jar

Place glass jar inside yogurt maker to cool down to just above blood temperatureUse sterile spoon to test some milk on your skin to check the temp if you do not have a thermometer. The drops of milk should feel just lukewarm on your skin.

Once the milk has cooled down enough, brake contents of Polyflora capsule into the milk

Stir in lightly by shaking the jar, do not use spoon.

Close and set yogurt maker to desired length of time, I start with 4 hours

Let it rest undisturbed for required period of time

Place resulting yogurt in fridge as soon as you can to thicken ...

Unfortunately I do not have any cows or goats milk at home to also test this procedure. I may buy half a litre tomorrow just for this purpose.Since I am starting this project at 10pm (while watching world cup soccer with hubby), the yogurt will be sitting longer than required before placing it into the fridge. Will report in the morning about the results of this experiment ...

BTW, if the experiment above works using soy milk, for sure it will work with any other animal base milk, or plant base milk ...

I intend to use this yogurt to start another batch of fermented bread culture tomorrow morning ... this time will be true to type culture ... Might do it behind the scenes though and just report here at the end only ... ?? :)

mmmm, all this got me thinking now, if my O, B or AB friends come to visit, they will be required to send me a couple of their respective Polyfloras so I can bake their true to type bread!!! It will certainly raise a few eyebrows in the post if they happen to notice all these pills popping around the place ... ;D

Checked status of mixture at 4sh this morning: too liquid, if any activity, it did not show it at all. So, I added another two Polyflora capsules (remember it is all experimenting still). Set the yogurt for another 5 hours planning to re-check after completing a few chores this morning like shopping for raw milk and more spelt flour!!! Grrrrr!! Spelt grains are not available here yet!!! May have to source them from down south!!!

It is now noon and I am happy to report that I have now a wonderful cup of 'True to type A' Soy yogurt sitting in my fridge!!!

Taster hubby: I like it, tastes sweetish, I will eat ittaster DD: nope, I would not eat it, I did like the one you (meaning me) served this morning (yogurt I made based on commercial yogurt and cow milk)Taster me: I will happily have it on my homemade granola any time!!

Conclusion: As Lola already told us, the system works. Now I have an idea of quantities, I will continue making my true to type yogurt using for the time being raw cow milk, at least until I get around to doing my own soy milk again. :)

I will use the cup I just made of Type A soy base yogurt to create a Type A fermented bread starter, at the latest this evening ...

The fermented bread batch I made earlier (page 16), is disappearing very fast. I think it gets better and tastier as it gets older, sort of like all of us here !!! ;D ;D Can't help it to love this journey ... :) ;D :)

I have not tried any other milks yet, I soon will and post my results, but according to Lola, yes, you can use different milks. It makes sense to me too.

Regarding the ratio, so far has been trial and error: I started with one polyflora tablet, as you can see in my descriptions here, but, at least given my conditions, it was not enough, so I added a couple more and it worked! You may find out it is enough with just one or two ... Like I did, start at the lower end and add more if needed.

I think that with culture mixtures like yogurt, it all has to do with your ambient conditions, so results may vary, take everything just as a guide rather than gospel.

I used yogurt maker for convenience: set time and forget. It is also airtight and will keep constant desired temp for me. But, until recently I used to have a jar immerses in hot water in an ski. Also in the past, particularly in summer, just used to sit the yogurt mixture on a warm place in a corner in my kitchen. Again, play with whatever resources you have. Nice, cosy warm in an bigger airtight container is best for yogurt making, I think ...

Well, that did not work!! Either I heated up the milk too much and killed whatever the creatures need from it to make the yogurt or the creatures did not like the raw cow milk (being A type probiotics!! Lola, you mentioned something earlier about the creatures not liking anything processed, does that apply too in regards to anything not good for type As, like cow milk, no matter how raw it is??!!

I will start again!! Glad I am only just using a couple of cups of milk and nobody in the house is missing them (being an A household), well, they shouldnt anyway!!! ;)

PS: CORRECTION!!!! YES!!! it did work!! I took the jar of the yogurt maker with the intention of throwing it away, but then I noticed some sort of viscosity at the bottom. I decided to add another Polyflora and put it back in the yogurt maker for another 3 hours. Had dinner, went to bed for a nap, got up again to start the new batch and surprise! The yogurt was formed! May be we need 4 polyfloras for 2 cups of milk? Maybe this bacteria likes to take its time and needs 8 hrs to incubate rather than the usual 5?? Whatever it is, I am not complaining and accept the success and the learnings that come with it!! :)

I am so pleased that, after all, the raw milk process did work! I PS my post previous page (reply 423) with the update.

I have now started another batch of yogurt with raw milk:

2 tablespoons from the previous batch

2 Polyflora tablets

about 6 cups of raw milk just above blood temp

Glass jar in yogurt maker with timer set to maximum: 10 hrs. Give those creatures plenty of time to feel cosy and do their business overnight!!! ;) :)

In the meantime I have almonds and walnuts soaking in salt and brown rice soaking in lemon water.

Yesterday I flaked my groats, soaked them in water with lemon and a bit of wheat flour. Today I drained them, chopped some home soaked and dehydrated nuts, added olive oil and honey, some flax seeds and put them in the dehydrator for a few hours. We now have phytic acid reduced granola to enjoy as finger food for the kids (and not so kids) or for the odd breakfast. :)

5 am next morning and I have a big jar of 'Type A' yogurt!!! Fantastic! The timer must just switched off because the yogurt is still warmish. I put the yogurt in the fridge.

It is very thick, custard like, I will taste it and take photos later. I am now busy drinking my lemon water and will soon do the OOPulling, flossing, etc.

I am also working on the new bread fermentation project based on the cup of 'Type A soy yogurt' I made (previous page). Not much activity with it, but, no need to panic, it is early days. I keep on stirring it a few times a day. I also fed it with a little bit more flour because it seemed too watery ... maybe because I made the silly mistake of putting a plate on top of the stainless steel bowl I am using for it (the ferment starter). What was I thinking!! That did not allow my ambient creatures to find residence in it, slowing down the process ... Must not get mixed up with the yogurt process: reduce air for yogurt, increase air for bread starter.

BTW, all that fermented bread baked back in page 16 is almost finished. Family and visitors made a good job of enjoying it! It looks like we will have a few bread-less days while I work on the 'sponge making' process again for the next batch of home made fermented bread!! This time with the 'Type A' creatures only at work! ... ;) :)

I am getting so frustrated, and unlike me, almost in tears..just can't make the sour dough work. Have tried a beat up crock pot which got too hot, have tried the pilot light, have tried the lowest possible temp in the oven...nothing works.It is really important to me to get this right as my sensitive Explorer man can only eat millet/rice non-yeasted bread, and none of the commercial ones are any good as either they are unpalatable or have some wrong additives. I will be persuading him to try spelt bread, but I have to do it with sour dough, not yeast as such. :-/

Oh dear Jenny!! I understand your frustrations fully! I am still trying to make to work the type A fermention bread starter. I started it with the cup of soy yogurt I made using Polyflora but it is not moving, it just sits there, a silky, runny custard like mixture that is not bubbling away, except when I stir it. I just added the 4th cup of flour to it and I promised myself I will not add any more. Will leave it sitting there on top of the coffee maker for the next 48 hours: there is bound to be some activity by then, even if it is the kind that require us to use a peg in our noses!!!

The yogurt making part worked fine, so I do not see why this is not working!! I need to summarize my process and see if I missed something there ... Sorry Jenny, I have not done that yet!! got side tracked with lots of other things happening here with the building works, world cup soccer and pantry re-arranging (yes, again, not happy with previous layout, OK for just me, but not working for Metta and I together, so re-arranging together... should be OK now, work in progress) and so on ...

I do not know, maybe you are right and the cold weather sends the good little creatures running away, hybernating somewhere else and keeps them away from our bread starters ....!!! I do not want to cry though ... so, don't you start!!! ;)

Oh, oh, oh, sour dough...not crying anymore, there are bubbles...I added a smidgen of honey to both the spelt and the rye starters, and that seems to be working.Left them in the slow cooker bath overnight, (faulty old cooker that barely heats up that I got through freecycle), and when I stirred them this morning they started to bubble....then would you believe it some friends told me that you can get sour dough starter from No Knead in a local IGA supermarket.!!!! ;D ;D ;D ;D ;DLater...I find that there is not any sourdough preparation in the supermarket, only a kind of pretend 'sour dough' flour. As I am avoiding commercial yeast this will be no good.Never mindMore news later.

Jenny, we must have been 'in tune' on this, because in reviewing my posts I noticed I have put some sweetener to one of the starters, so I added some barley malt to this one and also, noticed some activity!! We may get there yet ...

Ahh!!I could not go to bed tonight without making the breads!! We are breadless at the moment and I do not know how much longer the youngters will last without rushing to the shop for the commercial bread!!! That will not be necessary now, since the little creatures arrived and they seem to have done their job!

But, before I go any further let me summarize my process so far to make the Polyflora based bread starter.

Starter Process:

1 - 1 cup Polyflora A soy yogurt2.- 2 cups Spelt flour (or any other of your choice)3.= 1 cup water 4.- sweetner (optional, I used barley malt, had to add it half way through process as explained below)

Mix together these ingredients long enough to take most of the lumps off. Let it sit in a warmish place for a few days, stirring frequently and adding equal parts of flour and water each day.

Observation 1: It seems to me that this Polyflora base starter is a slow starter, or sometimes the ambient conditions are not right (not enough creatures in the air), but, as long as there is no foul smell and mixture looks healthy, it pays to be patient. Once bubbles appear, it usually takes off. You can keep on adding flour and water until you reach the desire volume for your project. Last batch I used 6 cups for the starter, this time only about three.

Observation 2: If you notice a whey like liquid underneath the top layer, that means that at some stage the mixture came to a 'head' and then collapsed. It is now ready to make bread, but if you require more quantity of starter, you can keep on adding equal parts of water and flour to it to your heart's content.

Bread making process:

1.- Salt to taste = about 1 tablespoon for about 1.5 litres of starter. I used about half for this one because it is about half that volume.2.- about a cup of warmish water (do not want to shock the residents)3.- enough flour to make nice, silky, stretchy bread dough

Add the cups of flour one at a time, mixing it together until you can get your hands to it and then: Knead, knead, knead for about 20 minutes, or as long as you need to get desired dough consistency. I know they say Spelt bread should not be kneaded too much, but I do mine and it turns out great.

Make like a dough ball and let it rest in a warmish place for a few hours or until it grows a bit. Sometimes they raise quite a bit, sometimes not so much. Patience is the key ... When you are satisfied that it has risen enough or at least you have given the dough enough time for to raise, bring it back to the kneading table and knead some more, only a few minutes, just to push the mixture back down and smooth it out again to make the loaves.

Divide the dough into desired loaves of bread and place in trays.

Let trays of dough rest, covered and in a warmish place for another hour or so, or until they have risen enough to bake.

Bake them in oven at about 350F (just under 200C) for just under an hour ....

I ended up with two starters again this time: Because it was not working, I divided my mixture into two to try to awaken the creatures, I put barley malt in one, and added Polyflora raw milk yogurt culture to the other. Both mixtures woke up then in a surge of activity producing enough starter volume for two loaves.

One loaf went into the breadmaker for further keading, raising and then baking. Except that I set this up late last night, was tired, went to bed for a couple of hours with the intention of giving the breadmaker enough time to knead and proof the bread, then I will have to press the 'bake' button, for it to do it (I use the manual settings for all this). But, I fallen asleep and hubby woke me up this morning saying 'what is wrong with the bread in the machine, it did not cook!!' Of course not, I did not press the button last night!! So, I tried to bake it this morning, during the night the bread had risen beautifully to the top of the container!!! 5 am in the morning it is still too dark around here, where I have the breadmaker is a darkish spot, even with the lights on! In fiddling with the electronic set buttons, instead of setting it to 'bake' I set it to the one above it, the one for 'knead'!!! The moment I realized my mistake, it was too late, the machine had already broken down my beautiful up to the top raised bread. So, at the moment, the breadmaker is still kneading this dough, then I will wait again for a few hours hoping it will raise again to its top of the container glory, and finally allow the breadmaker to 'bake' the loaf by pressing the right button this time!!!

It will be interesting to see what comes out of all this extra kneading and raising of the dough! 'There she is again with her experiments ...' rolling eyes hubby ... I hope this works ...

As for the second starter dough, last night I placed it in a small loaf tray, let it proved for a while to a certain height and then baked it. So, this morning at least we do have some bread choices ready for breakfast ... :)

Jenny, I hope you are having success with yours. Notice my rescue attempts above. I came to the following conclusions (at least until otherwise proven):

1;-If using soy milk based starter we may need to add the sweetener. It worked with the process described in page 16 for the soy milk one, and it did the trick here too.

2.-On the other hand, it also seems to work by adding the raw milk based yogurt, the one I made using the Polyflora tablets as explained in previous pages ...

Interesting findings ... If you just use soy milk, the creatures like a bit of swwetness to get them moving. They do not seem to care where this sweetness comes from, either from a 'normal' type of sweetener like barley malt or honey? or the subtle sweetness of the raw milk yogurt ... ?

Of course, this is an on-going process. I preserved about a cupful of the starter mixture to start a new batch. I will keep feeding it flour and water for the next few days and so on, so in a week's time I can be making fermented bread again, and so on, and so on ....

Beautiful type A fermented Spelt bread ... so far made using organic white Spelt flour sourced from a HFS or even supermarkets ... I am still waiting for my organic Spelt whole grains, so I can then soak them, dehydrate them just enough to get them dry and be grinded into my own 'Phytic reduced Spelt flour'!! The shops around here are unable to get the grain yet due to last year's crop failures in aussieland ... Aussi forum dwellers, I welcome source names from Qld ... ;D

Making your own phytate-reduced wholemeal spelt flour will be brilliant! I've only been getting the flour from Make it and Bake it at Redcliffe and from The Ironwood Cottage at Sandgate (great for all healthfood especially bulk) and white spelt from Woolies.

Thanks for explaining the steps on here that will help lots of people.

Look forward to chatting when I get back. Aren't we busy bakers? Gotta make some bread today myself so I have some in the freezer for when I come back and for the next few days. Very happy that DH has ditched his commercial fruit cake and since he liked spelt bread so much, asked me to make a fruit loaf for him. It's taking a long time but he is bending to healthy food (gave up ham / bacon just recently!) and I hope to blood type him while we are away. If not I'll continue chasing him after he shaves and any other spurting opportunity. :o (bunny) :) Chat when I get back. Keep posting Cristina! :K)

Here are the photos of this last lot. This is the one that got triple kneaded, twenty minutes by hand and then twice on the breadmaker (by mistake), knead, rise, knead again, rise again and finally baked in the machine!! The other smaller loaf that I baked in the oven was gone before I had a chance to take photos. This one just came of the 'press', all youngsters gone, so it will last us a few days ... she hopes ...

and why it is healthy:Quoted Text * Sourdough bread has a lower glycemic index — a measure of how high and how quickly blood sugar spikes after eating a food — than bread made with commercial yeast. This makes it a better choice for people with, or at risk for, diabetes. * Sourdough makes certain minerals (iron, zinc, magnesium, and others) in whole grains more available for absorption by our bodies by facilitating the breakdown of phytic acid, a compound in grain bran that inhibits mineral absorption. * Sourdough shows promise for people with celiac disease, which renders people intolerant to gluten. Not only can sourdough improve the taste, texture, and overall sensory quality of breads made with gluten-free flours, but it may also act to degrade or deactivate proteins in gluten that adversely affect gluten-sensitive people. * Sourdough makes people happy, thereby diminishing stress, which is good for all-around wellness. (Okay, this one is anecdotal, but I completely believe it, don’t you?) * Sourdough bread has a lower glycemic index — a measure of how high and how quickly blood sugar spikes after eating a food — than bread made with commercial yeast. This makes it a better choice for people with, or at risk for, diabetes. * Sourdough makes certain minerals (iron, zinc, magnesium, and others) in whole grains more available for absorption by our bodies by facilitating the breakdown of phytic acid, a compound in grain bran that inhibits mineral absorption. * Sourdough shows promise for people with celiac disease, which renders people intolerant to gluten. Not only can sourdough improve the taste, texture, and overall sensory quality of breads made with gluten-free flours, but it may also act to degrade or deactivate proteins in gluten that adversely affect gluten-sensitive people. * Sourdough makes people happy, thereby diminishing stress, which is good for all-around wellness. (Okay, this one is anecdotal, but I completely believe it, don’t you?)

Wow! Make sourdough bread, live long and prosper!

The low GI component is going to be worth it Jenny, keep trying those wild yeasties will play soon.

Didn't read all of that but it's giving me good reason to try sourdough (except it sometimes gives me a headache - probably the amines). Gotta go!

Thanks Chloe, Symbi! and Symbi, I love those links, thanks. Actually the Sourdough info is the best i have seen so far, even Nourishing .... does not explain it that well! Rye flour is black dot for us, but according to that site, once you keep on feeding the starter, the Rye gets eaten and replaced with whatever you use!!

I think Jenny was going to try the Rye starter, it is quoted as being better fermenting flour, usually giving activity much sooner than any of the other flours ... I have Rye flour and I think I will experiment with it. See what happens ... Love this classromm ... very nice, friendly, helpful and knowledgeable company ...

Yesterday I baked one in the breadmaker, set it up manually, experimenting, it has like 3 raising times and kneading times, I set it to knead for 30 first, then 5 minutes and gave it a lot of time in between to rise, like an hour the first time and 40 minutes the second time ...

The final product was very nice.

1.- height: It raised quite a bit, but not as much as my previous breads, this one was about a couple of centimetres below the top of the container, the previous ones were right at the top of it. 2.- Texture: This one is more dense, not as crumby as previous ones that received a lot more kneading time3.- this one is sweeter, not as soury as the others. You would not know you are eating a sourbread ...

I can see that the more you knead the loaves, the lighter the texture, the crumbier they become ...

I have 4 cultures going on at the moment ... a couple I started with just Rye flour and water, no yogurt, hope the yeast pores are well established now at home ...

Got myself a couple of extra glass bowls to ferment extra vegies and do a fruit kimchi (love this dish, is delisioso with all that ferment good for our guts!!).

Got some plain wholewheat grains to sprout as well ...

We have been eating pinto beans, black beans, soy beans, ... soak them for many hours (over 24), with a little bit of lemon juice, not too much or it affects the taste ... then cook them slowly on crock pot ... rinse and mixed them with sauces, grains, something a different colour and texture every day!! :)

Symbi, thanks for that information and for the suppport; yes, my babies have started to grow healthily I think. They are about 7 days old now, in a rye starter, sitting in a heavy ex-coffee jar, tall, in a water bath in an old slow cooker that only works on the lowest level. I don't cover them at all now, as I need to stalk as many wild yeasts as I have in my house!I am very tempted to do a loaf today, and have to decide whether to do themanual or machine process.I am very confident about the rye starter even though the person for whom I am making this is not a rye eater, because the literature says somewhere that it is transformed in the process. Basically I will be after the most pure and healthy spelt/sourdough combination. Once you start searching you do find that spelt is considered better than modern wheat, and sourdough much better than commercial yeast. Slow cooking rules! :P I see that there is no useful sourdough material in recipe central yet, so maybe it is time? Maybe all of this on this project will contribute our best efforts in succinct form?I hope to have good news very soon.Jenny

Posted by: Cristina, Wednesday, June 30, 2010, 11:18am; Reply: 54

Ok, that's it! I think I brought over all relevant posts a few of us have been busying ourselves with under my other thread. Like many things in life, started as just a small experiment one afternoon, and now it has transformed into a whole new life form!!! It deserves a thread on its own, in the lifestyle or cooking section within these forums ...

Jenny, have you noticed how powerful the aroma is from the Rye flour when first start the fermenting? It dies off once the creatures get going, but the first time I mix the rye flour and water, wow, it hit me!

I have baked another no knead bread on the bread maker, mix the ingredients manually first and then put the blob in the machine, manual setting, no knead time and about 1.5hrs rise time ... The result is a very yummy bread, but not very height, about 5cm or 2 to 3 inches tall ... :)

Posted by: Cristina, Wednesday, June 30, 2010, 7:25pm; Reply: 56

No knead, natural fermented bread in Cast Iron pot:

This morning I am experimenting with the dutch over style, that is, no knead, no yeast mixture baked in a cast iron pot in the conventional oven (electric in my case).

I had the dough prooving (on top of my coffee maker machine) overnight and it has more than double its size!

I am waiting for my cast iron pot to heat up. I have the oven on max (250F).

I will then, gently, trying not to kill the bubbles as U-tube videos recommend, fold the dough over to make a nice neat loaf and put it in the steaming hot cast iron pot (with lid on) for about 20 minutes.

Then, lower the heat a bit, remove lid, and cook for another 15 minutes or so ...

Lets see how I go with this one ... ;D

Posted by: Cristina, Wednesday, June 30, 2010, 7:42pm; Reply: 57

No knead, natural fermented bread in Cast Iron pot:progress report 1:

Talking about blob!! That is exactly what my dough turned up to be. One cup of starter and 3 cups of flour as suggested by one of those U-tube videos, produced too runny dough for me (this time anyway).

The 'blob' seemed to have a live of its own in my hands while I was trying to fold it over, it was trying to run away through my fingers ...

Somehow, I managed to gather it in my two hands and drop it in the steaming hot cast iron pot inside the oven!! It was an adventure of its own, just to try to avoid scorching my hands in the process!!!

Now, with the oven that hot, and this dough in this 'blob' state, I am not looking forward to what I may find in the next twenty minutes when i remove the lid from the cast iron pot ...!!! :-/

I am getting the weirdest looks from my hubby at the moment "why can she just make 'normal' bread?..." ... 4:30am ... ;D

Posted by: ruthiegirl, Wednesday, June 30, 2010, 8:18pm; Reply: 58

Has anybody ever had success with oat or rice flour in sourdough? Spelt is a black dot for me, and I don't know if I'll tolerate it better as sourdough or if it will still give me trouble. Oats are officially a neutral for me, but I've had bad experiences with it pre-BTD and I haven't tried it recently. I'm guessing that it would be easier to digest as sourdough than as oatmeal cookies?

Posted by: Cristina, Wednesday, June 30, 2010, 8:24pm; Reply: 59

ruthiegirl, I have not tried that, but I love experimenting, and I do happen to have rice flour and could get some oat flour later ... ;)

My feeling is that you could use the same sourdough starter made of rye and spelt and then use the rice or oat flour at the time of making the bread dough ...

But, I do not know, I could also give it a try of starting the ferment with Rye, and using oats or rice flours to get the starter going ... I am sure I saw something on those lines somewhere in my google travels ... :)

Posted by: Cristina, Wednesday, June 30, 2010, 8:30pm; Reply: 60

No knead, natural fermented bread in Cast Iron pot:progress report 2:

The blob is out!! As expected did not raised much from its original state, but it still looks so cute!! I am posting some photos in the next few minutes.

It sounds hollow when tapped and it has that sort of county, 'out of the campfire' type of look! Hopefully by the time I post the photos, it would have cool down enough to cut it and report from the taste buds ... ;D

Posted by: ruthiegirl, Wednesday, June 30, 2010, 8:32pm; Reply: 61

Or maybe I'll just wait until my health is a bit more stable before experimenting with this. Rye and spelt are both black dots for me- so, if I was healthy, the trace amounts in the final product that are left after using them in a starter wouldn't be a problem. But I don't want to throw another wrench in the works when I've been feeling "off"- I should eat simply and focus on beneficials right now.

Has anybody started talking about fermenting vegetables yet? It seems like all the commercially available fermented foods (sourkraut, kombucha, kefir, yogurt) are either black dots or avoids for me. If I'm to get probitocs in my diet (and my budget), I need to do my own fermenting.

Posted by: Cristina, Wednesday, June 30, 2010, 9:00pm; Reply: 62

ruthiegirl, there is fermented rice our there two, there are some very nice indian dishes to experiment with ...

Regarding fermented vegies, it is very simple:

grab a glass bowl and place some very fine shredded cabbage (and carrots and any other vegies you want to experiment with),

work it with your hands to draw some juice out sprinking with salt every now and then

After a while, you should have quite a bit of juice worked out

pack the vegies into a wide mouth glass jar, making sure they are submerged in their own liquid, add more liquid if need be. Glass jar should be wide enough to allow you to put another container on top of the vegies to keep them submerged in the liquid (brine). I use a small coffee expresso type of plate pressed down with a skinnier jar full of water.

Keep these fermenting vegies on the counter top for a few days until ready to refrigerate. Now when that is ready, depends on your taste. Have a little taste every day or two and when you are happy with it, refrigerate indefinitely!

I intend to document this process, but if anyone starts it before, feel free to post and share your process please .. we all learn from each other ... :)

Posted by: ruthiegirl, Wednesday, June 30, 2010, 10:17pm; Reply: 63

Cabbage is a black dot for me. I intend to make carrot/ginger kraut in a day or two, after I have a chance to buy more carrots, and today I made beet kvass. It's just so hard to remember to prepare them when it doesn't help me feed myself or my family that very day. The ginger carrots take half a week and the kvass takes 2 days- but then it takes food prep time and energy away from what we need to eat right away.

Posted by: Cristina, Wednesday, June 30, 2010, 11:45pm; Reply: 64

Once you get into the rhythm of things, it 'becomes second nature' as Lola said to me earlier ...

Showering, bathing, dressing, cleaning up the house, everything requires effort and a certain rythm for us to do it, we can either make it worse by adding our tune of discontent to the task or make it re-energize us by tuning it with content!!

It becomes easier to me to prioritise these tasks when I think about all those good fermenting, sprouting, culture little beings, re-enforcing my good genes, healing my gut and nurturing my inside. It spurs me on and makes me want to sing along ... :)

Posted by: Cristina, Thursday, July 1, 2010, 1:50am; Reply: 65

No knead, natural fermented bread in Cast Iron pot:progress report 3:

It may look pitty to the experts out there, but with morning coffee, ghee and honey in this cold cloudy day after a long walk at the beach ... priceless!! :)

Posted by: ruthiegirl, Thursday, July 1, 2010, 2:13am; Reply: 66

So, how did it taste?

I know that fermenting will become "second nature" once I get into it again, when I'm eating it daily and I make more because I notice I'm running low, and I want the next batch to be ready by the time this batch is finished. I'm just not quite there yet.

Posted by: Cristina, Thursday, July 1, 2010, 2:53am; Reply: 67

I thought that 'priceless' comment at the bottom of the photos said it all!! Tasted wonderful! Not as sweet as my previous bread, but still nice, texture was easy to cut, crusty on the outside, well cooked, airy ... The different in taste from previous ones was subtle, as expected with the culture being from a different bottle, you see, with this method there is always a subtle difference in taste each time ... different environment conditions, different air quality, different creatures ...

Regarding the environment conditions I just want to point out that I do not use any sprays or perfumes at home at all, sometimes they (the spray) can have a bad effect on the good fauna (or is it flora?) in the air ... So if you come to my place loaded up with perfumes do not expect to get (from me at least) any nice comments of how nice you smell. On the contrary, I will try to keep you as far away as possible from my kitchen and even invite you to eat out instead ... some sort of packed picnic ... ;D

(you see, I will still look after you ...) ;)

Posted by: Cristina, Thursday, July 1, 2010, 3:03am; Reply: 68

One of my bottles went bad, threw it out! It became all black at the top, it happens, just be aware ... The other three are doing great! Like bought yeast when you put it in water to activate ... You know is OK ...

I have a bottle with ferment on the counter, it is in its infancy, the matured ones are in the fridge, to get them to dormant state, will keep on feeding them and looking after them, like you do when you have babies and have to prepare food very carefully for them and store their food in the fridge .... these are our babies .... :B

Has anybody ever had success with oat or rice flour in sourdough? Spelt is a black dot for me, and I don't know if I'll tolerate it better as sourdough or if it will still give me trouble. Oats are officially a neutral for me, but I've had bad experiences with it pre-BTD and I haven't tried it recently. I'm guessing that it would be easier to digest as sourdough than as oatmeal cookies?

As I type, I have got resting a mixture inspired by your post (not exactly what you asked for, but could be easily substitute for rice later on if this works):

I mixed all this together, put it in a small glass bowl and once risen (if it does rise at all), I will put it in a small dutch oven and into the oven ... high temp for first 20m, lower temp next 15 minutes and see what happens ...

If nothing palatable comes out of this, I will just delete this post, so not to waste anyone's time and space ... ;) ;D :)

it is 2:00pm Thursday here ...

Posted by: Lola, Thursday, July 1, 2010, 5:10am; Reply: 70

if it doesn t rise, flatten it out and bake a focaccia......nothing goes to waste....all are perfectly nutritious ingredientsor make pizza bases and refrigerate covered for future use....make tortillas, ingera, whatever!

Posted by: Jenny, Thursday, July 1, 2010, 10:36am; Reply: 71

I'm so happy to report that my first loaf of sourdough bread is a wonderful success.I ended up doing it in the machine, but manipulating the times so that it had far more rising than the regular set up. It was more than 6 hours in all.I will report on the exact details after refining it again tomorrow.it's all good xxx

Posted by: Cristina, Thursday, July 1, 2010, 11:36am; Reply: 72

Great news warrior!! I knew you will crack it!!! Enjoy it!! Cannot wait for the details. In the meantime I had been experimenting with the dutch oven type, like in a cast iron pot in the oven, I have just finished baking the second one ... They do not rise as much with this no knead, no commercial yeast, but they certainly make up for texture and taste! Very earthy feeling ... :)

Well, after good 7 hours I can report that the mixture has risen!! about double in size, maybe a bit less, but certainly risen it has!!

What I have done so far:I had a small cast iron dish in the oven getting hot at full temp ...

after a few minutes, once I knew it would be hot enough I removed it from the oven (carefully, very hot) ...

I turned the glass bowl (with the dough) upside down over this cast iron dish (scorching hot still), so that the dough will fall in it gently, trying to avoid breaking any valuable bubbles ...

I put the cast iron dish lid on, and the dish back into the oven for the next twenty minutes ...

Twenty minutes later, I reduced the oven temp to moderate, just under 200F and removed the lid from the cast iron dish (carefully avoiding hot surfaces) ...

After another twenty minutes I removed the dish from the oven and removed the fermented almond, lentil and oat bran bread from the dish to cool down ... (well, I will once the twenty minutes are up)

The aroma emanating from these cast iron fermented type breads are embracing the house and are unbelievable!! I am not too sure how these two loaves are going to taste tomorrow when we cut them (after intensifying the flavours overnight), but if the aroma is anything to be guided by, I am really happy already!! :) :)

Posted by: Munchkin76, Thursday, July 1, 2010, 5:11pm; Reply: 74

Can't wait to hear how it tastes Cristina :P

Posted by: de_nogent, Thursday, July 1, 2010, 8:37pm; Reply: 75

Christina,

Thanks so much for all of your research, time and effort. Absolutely fascinating! There is definitely a complex science behind all this stuff. I propose that we start individual recipe threads for each: fermenting, sprouting, and yogurt (BTD Recipe Center?). You should write a book, too. I'd buy it! ;D

Thanks again, and I can't wait to make a complete mess of my kitchen.

Posted by: Cristina, Thursday, July 1, 2010, 9:21pm; Reply: 76

Thanks for your kind words. I am not doing anything special or be expert at anything ... I think it is my INFP, just a case of the Extrovert side of my Introvert personality coming out, with the help of my Ntuitive nature, supported by my Feelings to help and share with other people and feeding in my Perception of the need for such information to be available here ...

This thread is not meant to replace Recipe Central. In Recipe Central we post our final products, here we vent our frustrations or share our successes, propose experiments, try things out ... apply that old thing that 'four eyes see better than two', well, we have a million eyes here ... It also allow us to identify environmental and food items differences ... shortcuts, or be the magic box of genie ideas for when we lack the 'proper' devices (ie: if I do not have a yogurt maker what do I use, how to keep cultures warm in cold weather, how to improvise when you do not have big loaf pans to bake your breads in ...).

And, as some others here pointed out, although they are individual techniques, they are all related. For example, when you are sprouting, you may be sprouting for your salads, or for your baking. If you are sprouting for your baking you will be discussing what length to stop the process so they ferment better, dry better and can be grind better. In this case you may find yourself jumping from the sprouting thread to the fermenting thread ... Even with the yogurt making ... use it in bread fermenting too ... So, as a research, learning project, having it all together in the one thread, will be advantageous ...

BTW, I started that way, with the two threads, but since we have (admins have) joined them into one ... Hope it is OK for you too and will find it easier to use ... ;) :)

Taste = it is an acquired one! For me, when you put the piece of bread on your mouth, it gives you like a sweetness of almond melting through, but then the bitter aftertaste from the lentils fighting against the sour yeastery ferment knocks you down!! I think, if I had used rice instead of lentil, it would have been a much appreciated bread loaf! As it stands, Metta had to rinse her mouth (typical supertaster nonnie), hubby quickly grabbed the more familiar spelt loaf sitting next to it and our visitor today gave us all the look of 'what kind excuse can I use to run to the nearest coffee shop for breakfast?' ... ;D

Texture = Perfect! dense but soft, like a cake, easy to cut and keep

I spent a good part of an hour trying to find ways of making it more palatable ...

ghee and honey did not work - too much contrast: bitter to sweet ...

Feta cheese was fine to me, the saltiness of the cheese mixes well with the bitterness of the dhal ... Metta could at least swallow it this time ... she even suggested maybe serve it with tomato paste or guacamole ...

Since I do not have either at home at the moment (tomato or avocado to make the pastes), I kept on trying with other toppings ...

I used Miso spread on it: I am sold on this one, the combo worked very well for me, but I was not going to push my luck and ask Metta or anybody else in the household to have another try ... I decided to surprise them at lunch ;D

Conclusion: I will not delete the post because although not for everone's taste, it is a palatable enough healthy combo (specially with the right topping), high in proteins, packed with B vitamins and full of gut healing sugars as a result of the fermenting action of the culture used to make the dough.

As an afterthought: Maybe if I had used some herbs and spices, like cummin seeds, thyme or even curry powder, would have made a different to the taste results ...

I am not baking it again though, not using dhal (lentil) like I did here. I will try to make another one, similar, but using rice flour instead, as suggested by Ruthiegirl earlier ... (rice flour: shopping list reminder ...).

This experiment does answer the question of whether you can use other kinds of flours in fermenting: the answer is obviously YES, that is easy enough, the complexity lies in finding the right palatable combo for the dough ... My vote is in for the rice flour being a favorite one for most people ... as a viable alternative to wheat ... :)

Posted by: Cristina, Friday, July 2, 2010, 3:18am; Reply: 78

Sprouting:Wheat berries:

OK, time to start sprouting, get off my chair, grab those wheat berries waiting in the cubit and set them up for sprouting:

I am using:

4 ex-coffee glass jars4 cups of wheat berries - whole wheat, that is all I have at home at the moment ...4 knee high stockings as lids (instead of the plastic mesh and thick rubber bands suggested in the videoenough water to rinse and fill jars

Process if pretty simple, 1 cup of berry in each jar, fill with water. All dirt and foreign particles will rush to the top, tip over the rubbish, continue filling jar until water is clear.

Cover jars with preferred method, improvise, it is fun. I am using the knee high stockings over the top and to self tie around opening ...

It is 1:00pm Friday. I am curious to see how long these berries will take to sprout, and if they will sprout at all. This is the moment of truth, to judge our suppliers and see if what they say is raw and organic, it really is ... or maybe is the farmer sneaking in GM berries ... >:( Hope not!!!

Come on, go and get yours going, lets see whose sprouts come out first!!! Lets have fun with it ... Some users from Australia will be nice too to be able to compare our sources ...

I intent to sprout to make fermented sprouted bread, or just sprouted bread, which one is healthier?

As you can see, I am downsizing heaps from what the author of that video suggests, just using it as a guide. Also, I have a small 5 tray Ezi-Dri dehydrator, it is doing the job for us so far, it cost us about $200, just under ... :)

Posted by: Lola, Friday, July 2, 2010, 6:10pm; Reply: 80

this is precisely the reason why I always make thin foccacia out of my experiments....the nutrition value is high, the results are always perfect, and each square rerves either as an open sandwich or mini pizza or whatever you feel like smearing on it.

oh and before I forget....get yourself a flaker!!!

you soak all grains, legumes, or whatever you wish to flake.....once air dried.....you pass them through the flaker mill....this adds a whole new dimension to your home made granola, or whatever.... ;)

Posted by: Cristina, Friday, July 2, 2010, 9:25pm; Reply: 81

Thanks Lola, I do have a flaker, the problem at the moment I cannot get my grains ... some sort of scarcity due to bad crops ... had to buy already rolled oats ... I tried soaking those, but it is not the same as soaking the grain and then creating the flakes ... :)

PS: and by the way, that lentil bread, we loved it, I cooked adzuki beans, made a pate type of thing with onions, garlic, tamari, lemon, olive oil, smeared over the bread and we had that for lunch and dinner yesterday ... by dinner type, the lentil betterness had settled down into a more subtle taste ... like the bread had aged and had time to blend the flavors into a more even, yummy savory taste ... :)

Posted by: Lola, Friday, July 2, 2010, 9:58pm; Reply: 82

sounds delicious! :)

Posted by: Cristina, Saturday, July 3, 2010, 5:20pm; Reply: 83

Yes, I was actually pleasantly surprised by the end result, after the 'aging' longer time. I kept it in the fridge too, rather than on the counter top like the Spelt bread ... Because of the lentil flour, it sort of game me the feeling that it was better to keep it that way ...

Wheat Berries Sprouting:

After over 24 hours soaking (I think), I now have them draining on a glass oven tray ...

Unlike the author of the video link referenced before, my wheat berries do not show any signs of sprouting ... hopefully they are not too old ... lucky it is winter here, therefore the chances of spoilage are lessen, got a bit of time to wait and see if these berries are good enough ... Hope they are not too old ...

Has anyone else had much luck sprouting wheat at home? are you doing that now? how soon before you get yours to show any signs ...? :)

Posted by: Lola, Saturday, July 3, 2010, 7:18pm; Reply: 84

mine always sprout after I leave them draining for a whole day and night, try to keep them in a dark place.....the tray needs to be a colander type material, where no extra water is stored, so your grains don t drown.....

Posted by: Cristina, Saturday, July 3, 2010, 10:23pm; Reply: 85

Ok Lola thanks ... :)

Posted by: Cristina, Monday, July 5, 2010, 6:01am; Reply: 86

Sprouting wheat berries progress report:

After 24 or so hours draining I can see shoots coming out, not on all of them, but in some. Have been rinsing them a few times a day and they are happily draining on a colander over an oven tray! ;) ... Will let them sprout for another day or two ... :)

Also, the soybeans I soaked the other day and I have kept in the fridge for a day or so in water, then I removed the water and still left them in the glass jar in the fridge, today when I took them out to cook, some of them had sprouted. Tiny shoot at the end ... I am blanching them for 15 minutes (rapid boiling) and then I will slow boil them until cooked. I do not think they have sprout enough, or rather, that not enough of them have sprouted to warrant eating them just by blanching ... So, boiling them may be safer ... :)

Posted by: Lola, Monday, July 5, 2010, 6:27am; Reply: 87

twice a day rinsing is more than enough......

Posted by: Cristina, Monday, July 5, 2010, 10:48pm; Reply: 88

Sprouting wheat berries:

thanks again Lola! ;D

By now, about 70% of the berries sprouted, some of them got two or three branches, so, it is time to dehydrate or slow down the process, or they will become too bitter ...

I have put the contents of the one jar (sprouted or not berries) in the dehydrator ...Unfortunately I only have ONE tray thin enough to hold the berries, my other 5 trays got openings that are too wide to hold them. I wonder what can I use, that is safe enough to put in the dehydrator as a temporary tray sieve to hold my wheat berries ...??

While i figure that one out, or someone gives me any suitable ideas, I have put the other three jars in the refrigerator ... waiting their turn to go in the dehydrator ... for how long? ... maybe 24 hours, this time tomorrow I can put the next batch, or maybe tonight I can use a tray in the slowest setting in the oven ... for the others ... what temp? ... too many ??? research ... help!!! .... ;D :)

Posted by: Cristina, Tuesday, July 6, 2010, 12:37am; Reply: 89

Sprouting wheat berries:

My last post was one hour ago and the wheat berries in the dehydrator are already dry!! i had it on medium ... maybe too hot? ... do not have the manual for it yet!! they did not supply it with the unit, supposed to sent it to me soon ...

Anyhow, I put the second lot in, this time at the lowest setting in the dehydrator, (only 3 settings: low, medium, high) ... Lets see how long they take to dry ...

I am very proud of my wheat berries sitting in a glass jar in my pantry, waiting to be converted into sprouted/soaked wheat flour, using my stone ground milling device !!!

Can't wait to taste bread baked using it !!! .. ;D

Posted by: Chloe, Tuesday, July 6, 2010, 2:10pm; Reply: 90

I have a question about culturing vegetables.

Wondering if I could add a few capsules of Polyflora A to my cultured vegetables as a starter..

I noticed that the Body Ecology company sells a probiotic starter and I watched a youtube video thatshowed a woman chopping her vegetables, but then adding a cup full of those vegetables toa blender with a cup or two of water and she dumped in a culturing powder they sell on the BodyEcology website...plus salt.. All that was in that powder was various strains of good bacteria....which made me think of using polyflora so I might wind up with custom cultured vegetables.

What do you think?

Posted by: Cristina, Tuesday, July 6, 2010, 5:21pm; Reply: 91

can't hurt, go for it and tell us how it works, I made do the same with mine ...

Wonders of experimenting ... Lola will sure step in to put us right ... ;) :)

Posted by: Lola, Wednesday, July 7, 2010, 12:26am; Reply: 92

I add one to mine......heck, I add one to anything I can get my hands on!!! ;)

Posted by: Cristina, Thursday, July 8, 2010, 10:20am; Reply: 93

All my bread cultures (I am maintaining 3 starters at the moment), have one Polyflora cap in them. :)

Seed variation Sponge:

Tonight I have started a new sponge type. It will produced a no knead, no yeast loaf, with seeds and more than one rise (all my previous no knead only had one overnight rise):

Mixed everything into a thick batter and I am leaving this mixture in a big bowl overnight on top of my coffee machine (warm place) ...

Will continue tomorrow ... ;D :)

Notice I am using the flour made from the wheat berries I sprouted earlier (as explained in my previous posts). I only have about 5 or 6 cups of it, I have already used a few on keeping my cultures alive tonight, so I will probably have to complement this flour with bought spelt white flour I have in the pantry ... we will see ... :)

Seed variation Sponge:Progress report 1

At 4:00am (morning after) I have added one more cup of flour and a bit less than a cup of warm water to the mixture. Back to the warmish place on top of my coffee maker ...

Progress report 2:

At 9:30am gently folded in one cup white spelt flour and back to its warm place ... covered with dish cloth and all to keep it warm ... :=

AT 2:00pm glentle folded 2 whole wheat flour, the one I have soaked, sprouted and grinded earlier ... By then the dough was thick enough to the point I had to use my hands to blend all the flour in and form two neat balls. I placed each in a divided oven dish I have. It has been sitting on top of the coffee maker growing nicely ... It is 5:00pm now, I wait until it doubles in size, maybe a few more hours and then I should be able to bake it in a hot oven ...

The slow rising is what is important with the sourdough, you do not want to rush it ... :)

Progress report 3

At about 7:00pm I finally put the dish in the oven at about 350F (200c).I sprayed the top with water, I repeated this every ten minutes twice more (I saw this in one of those U-tube clips, I liked the look of the crust then) ;DIn all I baked it for about 50 minutes, 40 at highest 350F, the last ten a bit lower temp!! Still not too clear temperature wise ...

I have removed the two loaves from the dish and they are now 'resting', all wrapped up in a warm place in my kitchen (guess where??) ... ;) ;)

We will probably have some for breaky tomorrow morning, will let you know how they taste, but as for looks ...

Top: is crusty and shinyColor: is dark, understandable given it is majority spelt flour and sprouted whole wheat flour and grains ... Texture: seems to be denser, will not know for sure until I cut it, later ...Aroma: wonderful, fill the whole house with this sweet, home baked bread smell, what else?? ;D ;D

'No knead' bread means gluten is not developed, gluten is the elastic type of fiber in the dough that forms a barrier to retain the gases caused by the yeast eating the protein ... that is why kneaded bread rises higher, there are more gas pockets lifting the dough ... no knead, no gluten, no barrier to hold the gases, more of them scape out ,.. you can actually see the bubbles at the top breaking out, you see more wholes on the top crust than in a kneaded bread where the crust is smoother ... something like that ... :)

... and BTW ... I am able to report about the taste now!! The warriors at home did a good job of 'tasting' it while I was talking to you guys here! well, it is yummy! I will definitely bake this again!! I like the texture too, it is dense, but soft and well baked, not gummy or heavy ... Adding the flour in stages allowed for the dough to process more of it, slowly, so more complex tastes develop ... These breads sort of taste better with time too, that 'aging' thing, can't wait too long though, or I will miss out ... ;)

The blob is out!! As expected did not raised much from its original state, but it still looks so cute!! I am posting some photos in the next few minutes.

Sounds good..can you help it along with some regular yeast..? I found that adding whole egg to the dough makes it rise higher also..adds protein too.

Posted by: Cristina, Thursday, July 8, 2010, 7:56pm; Reply: 96

MF:Yes, commercial yeast could be used when everything else fails, :'( but,I am trying to be self reliant with the yeast, create my natural one, :) also regular yeast has too many additivies :X, I am trying to avoid it ... ( I will try to find the link in the net where they talk about the additives in some commercial yeast and post it here as a PS maybe).

Chloe:Thanks for that link, it reminds me at home when we used to ferment the grapes to make wine!!! Have you tried fruit Kimchi (I have posted the recipe in other thread some time ago, will have to do that here too) where you can ferment fruit and nuts with a bit of salt and water, like sauerkrat. It is very yummy too, not as alcoholic ending as using sugar, and you get to rinse and chop the fruit and you can also use dry fruit ... :)

Posted by: Cristina, Thursday, July 8, 2010, 8:10pm; Reply: 97

Seed variation Sponge:Progress report 1

I posted this report at the end of the original post (reply 93), to keep it together. :)

Posted by: Chloe, Thursday, July 8, 2010, 8:54pm; Reply: 98

Never even heard of fermented fruit until a friend who is not on this forum sent me the link today. She's a diabetic and on her forums people say that they can eat fermented fruit without it raising theirblood sugar. And that made me think....Is fermentation one way to normalize blood sugar? What about good gut flora affects blood sugar? Obviously this is very important for everyone toknow about.

Wouldn't it be amazing if a natural blood sugar stabilizing solution is simple fermentation? Not drugs?

OK..so Cristina...can you please explain how to go about fermenting fruit? What's a good fruitto use? Pears? Peaches? Apples? And is this going to be salted?

coarsely chop everything. I thought I got clever and threw all my nuts on my new blender: it pulverised them!! in a couple of seconds!! Oh well, a few got left in bigger pieces, so I am still using the lot (finely chopped and all), see what happens ...

I put everything in my slow cooker bowl (obviously I will not be able to slow cook anything for a few days ;) ;D). Mix everthing up with a handful of coarse Celtic salt, added warm boiled water to cover, put a plate and some heavy lids on top to hold the fruit and nuts underneath the brine. Some of the seeds scaped, impossible to keep down, they are floating in the water on top of the plate, but everything else is held tight!!

Put the bowl and lids in the slow cooker, placed a bigger loose lid over it all and left it in the counter, near my stove, where I can keep a good eye on it all the time!!!

The plan is to let this ferment for a few days, 5 or 7 days. Then I will put the contents in a glass jar and keep it in the fridge. I am following the guidelines from my permaculture teacher here, did the course a few years back, got the books ... but it is all rough, by feel, measurements not necessary here, just put it together with resources and ingredients you have ... using compliant ingreedients of course! have a try, something yummy is bound to come out of it !!! ... ;) ;D :)

Posted by: Vicki, Friday, July 9, 2010, 4:07am; Reply: 102

What a great adventure, Cristina!

Posted by: Lola, Friday, July 9, 2010, 5:15am; Reply: 103

I have had no need to add the water using mango and pineapple, jicama as well lets out so much juice.....beets......sweet sour like chutney! ;)

Posted by: Cristina, Friday, July 9, 2010, 6:32am; Reply: 104

Thanks Lola, spot on as usual! Did not have any of those and wanted to start it now rather than tomorrow!!1 Maybe should have juiced some apples and pears and use that instead, but I do not think I had enough either ... Need to do big shopping tomorrow .... I have plenty of lemons in my trees, I wonder if I could have used that? would it have been too acidic? ??)

for fermenting veggies or fruits and nuts and whatever, I believe best is to simply use the juice you can process out of whatever it is you are fermenting.....

lemon juice you can add once the process is done fermenting and you serve yourself a portion of it on your plate.......I would avoid the citric environment during the fermenting process.

Posted by: Cristina, Friday, July 9, 2010, 7:48pm; Reply: 108

thanks, I will have that in mind next time! :)

Posted by: AKArtlover, Friday, July 9, 2010, 9:28pm; Reply: 109

I don't know that I have the willingness to make the time to do this now, but I am enjoying reading this thread. I am wondering if you have ever had issues with mold? We tend to get mold growing on fruit/veg on counters within a week. Wondering if that is an issue.

Posted by: Cristina, Friday, July 9, 2010, 10:10pm; Reply: 110

Aha!! we are going through our winter months here now, so I can afford that luxury! I have used these techniques many years before, but I was then living in a very dry place, very hot, but very dry, so as long as you cover your cultures well, there was no danger of molds developing, not the unwanted ones anyway ...

If we keep this thread alive long enough, we will see how I fare during the summer months in this humid subtropical coastal climate I am in now. ;)

Others may be able to tune in with their experiencies and what techniques they use in dialing with humid, hot environments to successfully ferment, sprout and grow culture food in general ... :)

Posted by: Cristina, Friday, July 9, 2010, 10:21pm; Reply: 111

Regarding making the time to do these things now or not, that is fine, I've been there myself too, and, like you, even though we may not be able or willing to make time for these things then, we are still blessed with the spark within us to be interested and keep in touch reading, learning, these techniques.. Keeping in touch, for that 'you never know when we might need it' kind of thing ... At least knowing that if one day, we cannot get any yogurt or Polyflora tablets, or commercial yeast because of catastrophic transport chaoes or some other horrible thing (please not!!), we will know there is a way to get around these shortcomes and we will still be able to look after the goodies in our guts by baking our own, breeding our own cultures, fermenting, sprouting away ... :)

Posted by: Jenny, Friday, July 9, 2010, 10:35pm; Reply: 112

Woo-hoo ;D ;D ;D ;D ;DI got fed up with trying to use the slow cooker as a bath for the sour dough starter--it just seemed to go on forever with not enough activity despite one small window of success, so I just left the bowl of starter on the bench overnight --very low temperature in my climate--this morning it is frothing and bubbling in a most satisfactory way, looks like a lambswool blanket that has been through the wash.all I can think is that the slow cooker on the lowest temp is still too hot. However it is not wasted, I think it will be right for a couple of jars of yoghurt sitting in the water. I am guessing that yoghurt 'cooks' at a higher temp than sour dough.Now I will try to figure out a recipe for the machine with the correct proportions of starter, flour and liquid. It is such a lucky chance art, not really a science,(like Cristina's) in my kitchen.I only want to make one loaf at a time. Perhaps I could do the initial mixing by hand then put it in the machine and fiddle with the timer buttons so that it virtually starts half way into the process? I will be giving it maximum rising times, so that the whole process takes twice as long as normal.

Posted by: Cristina, Saturday, July 10, 2010, 4:59am; Reply: 113

WooHoo!!! ditto!!! Well done!!!

It is a chance thing here too, trying to capture what I have been doing to make it less chancy, but still, environment, how the little beasties feel, the quality of berries, flours ... even the rain water, all differs with each attempt!! and we love it!!! no assured commercial artificial staff for us!! ;)

If it is kneaded bread you are after I would just set a medium crust, basic setting and let the machine take care of the rest. That is what I did with my earlier machine ones, with great success, I think the posts are still under Cristina's Swami X thread.

If it is the no knead bread, then, that is the one you need to use manual settings, select 0 time for almost all knead sessions, set longest time possible for first rise, a few 3-5 minutes or so of punch down time or second knead time (just enough to gather the dough again), about another hour or so for second rise, no knead time for third rise and start with another hour for the last rise, but if you think your loaf got where you want it with height any sooner, remember that for next time and adjust ...

Mine has 3 knead and rise times, plus a punch down I think, your manual settings (if any) may be different ... Whatever you do, please keep us informed!! I feel you are in my kitchen already!!! The wonders of cyberspace .... ;) :) :)

Posted by: Cristina, Sunday, July 11, 2010, 8:41pm; Reply: 114

In spite of my last post, here is a formula I tried for my last loaf, just out of the oven:

2 cups starter1 cup warm water1 tbsp celtic saltabout 6 cups flour

Mix salt and water, added it to starter and mix wellAdd the flour one cup at a time, mixing well with a fork, but I used my hand for the last cup. Turned it and twisted it around to blend in all flour.Covered it with dish cloth and put it in warm place overnight.

That was at about 8:30pm last night. At 4:00am this morning it had more than doubled in size!! To the top of the casserole dish I had put the dough in.

I set the oven to very high temp (250C). Normally I would have transfered the dough to a proper loaf pan tray, but it was so high and beautiful, I did not want to run the risk of letting everything fall down and then have to go through the process of waiting for it to raise again!!! My crew wanted to have the bread yesterday!!

So I just put the caserole dish with the lid on in the hot oven and set the timer to 20 minutes. After the 20m, I lowered the temp to about 200C, I removed the lid (happy to see the dough kept its height), sprayed water on top, closed the oven and set it for another 20 minutes. during that time I sprayed the top twice more for the first 10 minutes.

Removed the loaf, put the dish upside down on a cooling rack covered with dish cloth. After one hour or so, removed it from the casserole dish (had to use a knife to dislodge it from the dish), took photos, cut it, took more photos. It is now ready to be enjoyed with the coffee I am preparing as soon as I finish typing here ...

In the meantime, the final has gone into extra time (soccer ...) ... Will be a few more minutes before I get to upload photos to Photobucket and post links here ...

This bread is the top of the range in my collection of sourdough breads!! Maybe my dough starters are getting better as they mature ... ;) :) ;D :)

Posted by: Ribbit, Monday, July 12, 2010, 12:41am; Reply: 115

I haven't read this whole thread, but I wanted to add that I've been sprouting green peas and/or lentils lately. They taste like dirt, but I find that I actually really want to eat them and enjoy the energy they give.

Posted by: Lola, Monday, July 12, 2010, 2:30am; Reply: 116

my sprouted peas and lentils don t taste like dirt..... :P

Posted by: Cristina, Tuesday, July 13, 2010, 8:56am; Reply: 117

No knead, spelt bread using home made starter. Recipe in Reply 114 above ... :) :)

:D(drool)(drool)Andy Won the bet!!! (sending cyber slice of it ... ) :D(drool)(drool)

I really surprised myself with this one!!! it is the highest no knead bread I baked!! It leaves those bought sourdough breads out there begging!!! ;) ;D :) Have you noticed one of my starter jars in the background? ... :)

This morning I transfered it from the slow cook bowl to 3 glass jars. Tonight they are overflowing!! I may need to split them into more jars ...

This morning I was in a roll! I started lots of vegie fermenting:

2 jars of sauerkrat using green and red cabbage, 2 jars of celery and lebanese cucumber with a couple of leaves of cabbage to stimulate lactic acid ...

I only use salt, no water at all ;) ;)

They are bubbling away ... what a nice colouful picture!!! :) My good gut inhabitants are already arranging a festival in preparation for the arrival of these goodies to their home .... ;D ;D

Posted by: Munchkin76, Tuesday, July 13, 2010, 9:26am; Reply: 121

Cristina, you're a star!

Yes, I did see the jar fermenting away in the background ;). I have yet to get myself sorted on the fermentation front. I have done one brew of kombucha (3L approx) which is in it's secondary fermentation (bottled) in my cupboard. It'll be ready on Thursday - will let you know how it turns out.

What do you do with the fermented fruit? Is it high in alcohol? I might give this a burl next!

I'm waiting a few weeks (trying to shed a few more pounds accumulated during the Aussie relative visitation) before re-introducing any grains - apart from quinoa breakfast every other day.

Posted by: Cristina, Tuesday, July 13, 2010, 9:57am; Reply: 122

I had this fruit kimchi as a dessert in one of my permaculture classes where everything was home made self sufficiency driven ;D We then had the choice to have it with home made yogurt, fresh cream (from teacher's own cows) and or cheese curds. All made in class, except the cream, I think she brought that up already whipped or something ... Needles to say I was nowhere near BTD lifestyle then, but knowing me, i think I either had it with the yogurt or the cheese curds, I was never too found of cream on its own, ... It was Yummy!! :) :)

Posted by: Jenny, Tuesday, July 13, 2010, 10:34am; Reply: 123

Just to let you know that I am finally making some reasonable sour dough breads with various flours. Haven't quite finalized the best recipe yet, but have learned a lot of tips from Cristina and will continue to practice the art. I do notice that my sourdough seems to get more active all the time, and after using the bulk of it for a loaf, and reviving it with a cup of rye and a cup of pure water, it is bubbling in no time, and could be used 24 hours later if I wanted to.To be honest I prefer the taste of hybrid modern flour v spelt, so will sometimes make that loaf with various alternative variations such as seeds. These flavours are definitely acquired tastes, and members of my wider family are sometimes less enthusiastic than I am. But my man is very happy with my Explorer loaf made with half spelt, quarter rice flour and quarter millet along with sour dough as he does not like commercial yeast.The funniest thing of all is that in the end I have found that capturing the wild yeasts in a wide metal mixing bowl on the kitchen bench has turned out to be perfectly successful despite all my hysteria with my cold climate.Has anyone posted recipes at Recipe Central yet? 8)

Posted by: Cristina, Tuesday, July 13, 2010, 10:46am; Reply: 124

Jenny, that is great!! True kitchen warrior, conquering the beasties!!! Once you get your starter going, it seems to be such an easy process ... Are you baking the knead or no-knead versions? :)

Andy, I am sure we can try something for you, most of your benes are also mine and so are the neutrals ... So any sourdough starter based on any of the wheats or rye is a no, no for you? Today i bought a packet of organic buckwheat flour, i wonder if I could make a starter with that ... might start one tonight, just for the sake of it ... or I will not be able to sleep if I do not try that!!! ;) ;D

Posted by: Cristina, Tuesday, July 13, 2010, 11:16am; Reply: 127

... and then we can try a combo of the benes to actually make the dough ... something small to start with ... we will see ... :)

Posted by: Munchkin76, Tuesday, July 13, 2010, 11:17am; Reply: 128

Cristina, you're a gem!! Do let me know if you do go for a try with the buckwheat!! I think I've got some of the flour in my pantry - if not, it's easy enough for me to buy some. I'm placing a delivery order with an amazing online organic healthfood store on Thursday so I can add some buckwheat flour to the order if I don't have any!!

Thanks again :K)

Posted by: Cristina, Tuesday, July 13, 2010, 11:20am; Reply: 129

;D as usual will keep you posted! Time for me to log off now, getting a bit late here ... got to grab a bowl or jar and the buckwheat flour before going to bed ... talk to you again tomorrow ... cheers ... ;D :)

Posted by: Munchkin76, Tuesday, July 13, 2010, 11:44am; Reply: 130

Thanks again Cristina, sleep well! Off to Southampton tonight for work tomorrow. Will be back online again on Thursday am.

Take care till then...

Andy

Posted by: Ribbit, Tuesday, July 13, 2010, 3:25pm; Reply: 131

Andy, you can make a nice bread with millet flour and flax meal. That's sort of my standard now. But rice flour isn't as depressing as you might think.

Well, those are more snacks and desserts, but you can take that idea and make unsweet bread to go along with soups and such.

Posted by: Jenny, Tuesday, July 13, 2010, 9:05pm; Reply: 132

Cristina, I am using my machine, as my kitchen is so small, therefore the bread is the kneaded variety. I program the machine to rise 3 times at 99 minutes each which is the maximum available, so the whole preparation and cooking time is marked at 6.36 hours. I also alter the knead time from 20 back to 15 minutes as it seems that the more it kneads, the more damp the dough becomes especially with spelt. I still haven't perfected the proportions to my satisfaction so will not post the details yet.

Posted by: Munchkin76, Thursday, July 15, 2010, 5:44am; Reply: 133

Leanne (Ribbit)

Thanks a million for these brilliant recipes (woot), I can't wait to give them a try! I sure miss spelt just now, but am sure I'll be fine once I get more used to using the grains on my allowed list.

Cristina has kindly volunteered to conduct an experiment in her lab (ahem... I mean kitchen) using a buckwheat starter and rice flour. She's so wonderful!!

Cheers again

Andy :K)

Posted by: Cristina, Thursday, July 15, 2010, 12:18pm; Reply: 134

Buckwheat project sourdough:

Warning:

Do not repeat this process yet, it is still in experimental stage, let me finish it first, see what comes out of it, then we can summarise and integrate it or start again ... ;) :)

As promised the other night, I mixed:

1 cup of buckwheat flour1 cup and a bit of water

and mixed it into a glass jug to a very thick paste. I had to add a bit more than a cup of water because the paste was too stiff, as it was, it ended up being a lot thicker than spelt flour starters. The mixture had that gluten type elasticity and adding more water would have made it too runny. It seemed to me that there was not 'in between' either too thick or too runny, so I opted for thicker ...

Literally left the jug on the counter next to all my other fermenting projects ... did not touch for the last couple of days.

All the time though, I was noticing some activity, like lunar domes appearing on the surface and this morning everything looked peaked. It had expanded, it had the look and feel of a very good starter ... So, I made the dough.

I did not have bought flour, but since I have a stone milling machine, and organic brown rice, I just made my own brown rice flour ... I know, Lola would be telling me now that I should have rinse, soaked and dry the rice before making the flour, but that would have taken a few days too many, for the sake of this experiment, this shortcut will have to do! ;)

I mixed the salt and water and added to the starter. Mix it in well, then added the flour one cup at a time. Used a fork to start with, until the dough became too stiff, then I used my hand to gather the last bit of flour and tydied the dough up into a ball.

Oiled casserole dish, put the dough into it and set it up to rise for the rest of the day ...

For comparison, I also made a spelt bread dough and placed it in a dish next to the buckwheat / rice dough ...

8 hours later, the spelt dough has risen to over half way mark, in contrast the rice dough has expanded a bit, showing lots of cracks at the top ... but was unable to rise ...

My intuition tells me it needs another element to it, so in looking at Andy's list of benes, I decided to add Quinoa flour.

I punched down the mixture, added 1.5 cups of quinoa flour (again home made from quinoa grains) and a bit more water ... Mixed it all together to form a bigger ball of dough. It will sit overnight and I will bake it tomorrow, rise or not ...

will keep you posted ... ;) ;D :)

Posted by: Lola, Thursday, July 15, 2010, 2:57pm; Reply: 135

for flakes I would have soaked, then dried......but for flour......think what you did was fine!rice doesn t sprout easy, so grinding dry whole grain brown rice is fine,provided your grain mill is a good one! :)

Posted by: Cristina, Friday, July 16, 2010, 12:38am; Reply: 136

Buckwheat fermented bread experiment:

The round one is the Spelt no-knead, sourdough bread, the long one is the Rice/Quinoa dough with a buckwheat flour starter. The round one, although looks burnt, it is not, although it is much darker on the outside than usual due to using different dish to cook it in! I used my normal dish with the buckwheat one!! They shared the baking for the last twenty minutes of the spelt bread cooking process. Then I cooked the buckwheat one for another 15 minutes or so on low.

I will not say much about the spelt bread, you have heard me before, this one does not even have the sour taste to it, it is the sweetest spelt bread yet!! I changed the proportion of salt and a couple of other things, posting recipe next. Lets talk about the buckwheat experiment:

Rising rate: Another 8 hours after the punch down and addition of quinoa flour saw hardly any rise on the dough. Lots of cracks on the surface which indicated activity from the starter effect on the dough, but nothing to retain the gas and elevate the mixture ... more about this below.

Texture:

Surface: cracked, crunchy crumby surface on top and harder, toasted crust at the bottom. This difference in crust results may be explained by the fact that I have water sprayed the surface twice during the cooking process. You know, like I do with all my breads.Inside: dense, compact, but not gummy. Soft and melting in mouth. I tried a couple of slices toasted and it had an easy bite to it.

Taste:Within the first hour out of the oven, cool enough but still warmish, it had a very strong sour, salty taste. I nearly jumped here to declare it unpalatable!! But then I remember what happened with the dahl fermented loaf I cooked the other day and waited. Hubby tasted it a few minutes later and could not stop eating it, he loved the salty nutty taste of it! But then, he is forever adding salt and sauce and mayonaise to everything he eats!! When I toasted a couple of slices and complemented them with ghee and honey, I find it nice enough to want more. I will try to keep it hidden until tomorrow, to allow for the sourness to settle into a more subtle level and taste it then.

Conclusion:I will bake it again as a gluten free alternative. Even for those of us non-gluen sensitive, it is good to do that. I will want to make the following changes to my process though:

Use less saltInclude more buckwheat flour in the mixtureInclude barley malt and oil in the dough mixture

Being an experiment, I just wanted to try it in its simplest form, to get a feeling of the flour behaviours.

Before you rush into making this, wait for my update tomorrow on the tasting side of things, unless you are used to strong sourdough taste.

The beauty of this process is that it gives those on gluten free an option to include the goodness of sourdough in their bread choices, Polyflora included!! Goes so well with a cup of coffee or tea!! ;D :)

Posted by: Cristina, Friday, July 16, 2010, 12:52am; Reply: 137

I have buckwheat grains (the whole grain with its husk) soaking to be used in sprouting. Has anyone had any success with these? :)

Posted by: Lola, Friday, July 16, 2010, 2:11am; Reply: 138

yes they sprout nicely, like rye

Posted by: Cristina, Saturday, July 17, 2010, 12:13am; Reply: 139

Sourdough Pikelets (called crumpets in some places?):

You have got to try these!! it is the ideal solution for your sourdough excess.

Save the excess from maintaining your starter until you get about a cup or two of it.

The night before you want pikelets for breaky, take that cup or two of starter and add enough flour (whole meal spelt flour is best) to make it a stiff batter, not too stiff like a bread dough, but not as runny as the starter. Somewhere in between. ;)

Leave it overnight.

The next morning take about about 2 cups of it and mix it with a standard size egg (free range, organic). If you have more than 2 cups of batter then use a larger egg or more, if less use a smaller egg, not a biggie. Mix it well and if necessary add some more liquid in the form of your allowed milks or even water. I did not have to add anymore liquid to mine. The addition of the egg made it pretty runny, more than I would normally use for pancakes, but the next step fixed it.

Add a little bit of bicarb soda. I used about less than a teaspoon for about 2 cups of this batter. The batter will then start to thicken and froth.

Cook spoonful of it in your favority skillet, frypan with your favorite ghee.

You do not need to add any sweetener to this batter, the overnight fermentation transforms the complex sugars into sweet simple sugars ...

We ate them on their own, with ghee, with honey and barley syrup ... tried them in different ways ... they were all fantastic!!! ;D ;D :) Organic home grind coffee complimented the superb breaky!! :) :)

Posted by: Cristina, Saturday, July 17, 2010, 12:29am; Reply: 140

I have a buckwheat sourdough going, once I get enough of it, I will try this pikelet recipe with it, to make buckwheat pikelets ... ;) Has anyone experimented with it? :)

Posted by: Munchkin76, Saturday, July 17, 2010, 9:00pm; Reply: 141

Cristina

Sorry, have been down on the south coast visiting friends for the last few days so haven't been online.

Thanks tonnes for cracking on with your experimentation with the buckwheat/rice flour combo! Sounds like you've had a reasonably successful outcome all-in-all. I can't wait to give it a burl! I'm waiting for a health food store delivery in the next day or so and then I'll get going. Perhaps, if I add some sort of emulsifier I might overcome the cracking (gas escapage (made up word??)) issues. I have coconut oil (good for emulsification) as a bene so will give that a go and let you know how it works - will follow your lead and post pics.

You made pikelets for breaky!! Yum, I haven't made them for ages - since I went gluten-free on the diet. Such an Aussie thing right!! Love 'em.

You are such an amazing ambassador for this lifestyle - thanks again for trying your experiment for me!

Big (((hugs)))

Andy :K)

Posted by: Ribbit, Saturday, July 17, 2010, 9:47pm; Reply: 142

Christina, you could try mixing some flax meal (mixed into a jell with hot water) in there. That always helps the gluten-free consistency.

Posted by: Cristina, Sunday, July 18, 2010, 2:04am; Reply: 143

Andy, south coast, cold down there? I was wondering what happened to you! Nice to enjoy time away with friends ...

The experiment: we are still eating the loaves, rice and the spelt one. I am very novice, amateur to the minus minus exponential!!! Learning though ... you are right, a emulsifier will probably work and Ribbit suggested the flax meal, easy to use ...

Keep us posted of your experiments, we can learn from each other ... I will also keep trying different things ... and posting ... :)

Regarding the pikelets, I want to try the same thing with buckwheat. Can you eat eggs? If not, I may use the Ribbits flax meal trick instead. And a bit of bicarb soda, is that ok in your Swami? Otherwise what else is in your condiments? :)

Coconut oil is a no no for us ... :-/

thanks Ribbit, will use that flax meal more with these gluten free mixtures, it may be what makes a difference ... :)

Posted by: Ribbit, Sunday, July 18, 2010, 2:47am; Reply: 144

I've been using millet or rice flour combined with golden flax meal. Golden flax seems to bind better than the brown. I usually use as much as half and half. I know flax meal is expensive, but I get the whole seeds in bulk at the farmers market for pretty cheap. Probably if I didn't have that option, I wouldn't use it!

I made some really nice pizza dough tonight for dinner.

A cup of millet flour, a cup of flax meal, some yogurt to react with the baking powder, some yeast, honey, salt....and hot water. I think that was all. I let it sit in the oven with just the light on (so it was warm) to let it rise a little. I was impressed.

The trick with flax meal is using hot water to make it gummy. And you gotta stir it quick and get it in the pan before it loses its fluff.

Posted by: Cristina, Sunday, July 18, 2010, 3:41am; Reply: 145

Great tips Ribbit, thanks. We cannot have millet here, so I will try that with rice flour instead. I will also use one of my sourdough starters instead of yeast. It should work, I think. Thanks so much for the recipe, sounds delicious ... :)

Posted by: Munchkin76, Sunday, July 18, 2010, 7:52am; Reply: 146

Cristina/Ribbit

The flax meal option sounds like a great one! I always have some golden flax ground up in the freezer so it'll be easy for me to give this a try (when the buckwheat flour arrives that is).

Cristina, yep I can have eggs, bi carb etc - they're all good on my Swami - here's what my condiments say:

The south coast was lovely and toasty. Went on a few nice country walks and had a big BBQ yesterday with lots of friends and tonnes of little ones running around. Was nice!

Posted by: Cristina, Monday, July 19, 2010, 7:26am; Reply: 147

Buckwheat Sourdough Pikelets project:

These pikelets are yummy!! And so easy to make!! Gluten free and sourdough...

Well, this is worth a try!!

Here is a summary of the process:

1.- Make a sourdough starter with one cup of buckwheat flour, one and a bit cup water as explained in previous post

2.- I added 1 cap of Polyflora A to it, but you do not have to if you do not have that

3.- After a few days, you will notice the starter getting a few bubbles, it will not grow as much, if at all, as the wheat (spelt or rye) starters, but it will spand and take on that sponge consistency when you move the glass jar you are preparing it in.

5.- if you want to increase the quatity of it for bigger batchs, just add more flour and equivalent amount of water.

Note: I made those 12 small pikelets with just half a cup of this dough. I am keeping the other half for tomorrow morning's batch! :)

6.- the night before the pikelet making morning, take some starter aside, maybe a cup or half a cup, add same amount of flour (no water this time) and let it rest all night

It was lovely!! Added about 1/4 cup of chopped hazelnuts and about 1/2 cup or so of fresh blueberries right at the end before putting into the loaf pan.

Turned out lovely and moist and all 4 of us enjoyed it immensely - thanks Ribbit!!

Andy :D

Posted by: Cristina, Monday, July 19, 2010, 8:48am; Reply: 150

Bananas are avoid in this 'A' household, but I do not see why the same recipe will not work with apples! ;D May try that one of these days. :) thanks for sharing and to Ribbit for her guidance ...

Anyhow, an update on my fermented vegies!! They are ready and in the fridge and today I used them in a lovely creamy rissotto made with creamy pearl barley!! They made such a difference to the dish!! Added depth and flavour without requiring the use of salt since the sauerkratt and celery and cucumber fermentation provided that (I did not rinse them, just put them straight into the pan and stir fry a big with carrots, onion, bell pepper and leeks).

The fruit kimchi is also ready, but except for trying a bit on the first day, we have not had a chance to eat it. That is the beauty of this diet, so many options available, such variety of colours, textures, flavours ... Heaven!!! :)

Bananas are avoid in this 'A' household, but I do not see why the same recipe will not work with apples! ;D May try that one of these days. :) thanks for sharing and to Ribbit for her guidance ...

Anyhow, an update on my fermented vegies!! They are ready and in the fridge and today I used them in a lovely creamy rissotto made with creamy pearl barley!! They made such a difference to the dish!! Added depth and flavour without requiring the use of salt since the sauerkratt and celery and cucumber fermentation provided that (I did not rinse them, just put them straight into the pan and stir fry a big with carrots, onion, bell pepper and leeks).

The fruit kimchi is also ready, but except for trying a bit on the first day, we have not had a chance to eat it. That is the beauty of this diet, so many options available, such variety of colours, textures, flavours ... Heaven!!! :)

Could you try pumpkin as an alternative?? I mean being in Q'land and all??!! ;D If it isn't an avoid, :-/ that is... ;)I agree with Andy you are indeed a terrific ambassador for ER4YT ;)

Posted by: Ribbit, Monday, July 19, 2010, 3:56pm; Reply: 152

I'm glad y'all have found it helpful!

You can use pumpkin in place of banana. You could use carrot shreds in place of the zucchini in the zucchini bread. Just add spices as desired to give it the proper flavor.

Posted by: Lola, Monday, July 19, 2010, 8:37pm; Reply: 153

shredded apple is also great

Posted by: Cristina, Monday, August 2, 2010, 3:22am; Reply: 154

I need to change grain suppliers, my grains are not sprouting well!!!

I have been using my fermented celery and cucumber mix in my turkey broths, but have not used much of the sauerkratt (now cabbage is an avoid :o) )

We have been eating the fruit kimchi, but to be honest it has turned out a bit too vinagratish ... that is because I used fresh apples in it, apples tend to cider ferment .. and I do not like them ... so the problem is easy solved for me, I just removed the apple pieces from my plate ... remind me not to use them next time!!!

We had the fruit kimchi with yogurt sprinkled with carob and a bit of honey (only because i knew about the vinegarish taste). We really enjoyed it!! and it really fill us up!! Now in this fruit kimchi I have:

I still got quite a bit of this kimchi, so I may make some spelt fruit bred with it and my sourdough bread starter. :)

Posted by: Lola, Monday, August 2, 2010, 6:28am; Reply: 155

depending on the mix you are using and which group you put into each mix....

I would never ferment dried fruit for example.....nor nuts or grains, which do not have a natural water content when processing for fermentation.

I like mixing veggies and fruits but both fresh and juicy.....to these I add the necessary sea salt for fermentation

Posted by: Cristina, Monday, August 2, 2010, 7:21am; Reply: 156

I hear you. My recipe includes any fruit and nuts ... I like it, I know I used water on this fruit kimchi, I need to confirm that, maybe that is why they use water, because they are using fruit and nuts, I should not have mixed the fresh fruit with it ... Need to contact the owner of the recipe to confirm ...

I will put this half and half, neutral vegie protein and fruit ... :)

Posted by: honeybee, Monday, September 6, 2010, 11:53pm; Reply: 157

i have sprouted some white french millet and added it to a blueberry / spirulina/ yoghurt smoothie just now - not bad. (then i had some CLO - feeling like I am making friends with my swami :) ) I decided to sprout the millet as cooking it did not soften this grain at all - not like the usual millet.

I have soaked quinoa last night, it is already sprouting, very fast sprouter - apparently you only need to soak 30mins, not the usual 8-12 hrs.

I am using a jam jar and a metal strainer that sits over a bowl to catch any water drainage.so far so good - no e coli :D that was my concern! using organic grains, sterilising jar to defend myself from thee critters.

Thinking of making a sprouted millet / quinoa milk with what is left... any one done this? thinking maple syrup and water maybe some lemon juice / sea salt?

Posted by: Cristina, Tuesday, September 7, 2010, 12:00am; Reply: 158

I soak my Quinoa for hours in the fridge, just enough water to cover the grains to start with and they end up sprouting in the fridge ... I keep a jar always handy there and I have sprouted Quinoa on demand! :)

Posted by: honeybee, Tuesday, September 7, 2010, 12:08am; Reply: 159

they are super fast sprouters. do you rinse / change the water daily?

Posted by: Cristina, Tuesday, September 7, 2010, 12:18am; Reply: 160

What I do is this:

Put a cup of quinoa in a jar (glass of course) with enough water to cover it by 1cm or so. Then add a couple of drops of lemon. Leave it on the counter for a while. Then, eventually (it could be a couple of hours or longer but on same day for sure) I rinse them, put them back in the jar with new water and put it in the fridge to keep until I am ready to use it ... it could be that same day, it could be a few days later ...

I tend to do that with my beans as well, until I am ready to cook them, they stay in the fridge, soaking ... once I cook them I also keep the excess in their own boiling water in the fridge in a glass jar until ready to eat ... Life becomes so simple to cook meals in a hurry when you use these shortcuts ...

I do the same with rice, white or brown ... soaking happilly in the fridge ... I do not have to worry about rinsing daily so much then ...

I only rinse them when I take bits for cooking, then excess goes back to the fridge with fresh water ... it has been working great for me this way ...

I did notice, but I questioned it. Why the difference? (I'm sorry if you've already mentioned in another post; I'm too lazy to go back and read...)

Posted by: Cristina, Tuesday, September 7, 2010, 2:37am; Reply: 162

Check the quotes below, but also, we had looooong discussions about this in previous thread, so for those who do not mind reading, you will be able to do it to your hearts content by searching our forum for 'phytates' ....

In the meantime, here is a extract that may simplify things a bit and the link it originated from ... :)

... “Nuts are easier to digest, and their nutrients more readily available, if they are first soaked in salt water overnight, then dried in a low warm oven (or dehydrator). This method imitates the Aztec practice of soaking pumpkin or squash seeds in brine and then letting them dry in the sun before eating them whole or grinding them into meal. Salt in soaking water activates enzymes that neutralize enzyme inhibitors….” “Soaking the nuts and seeds in water neutralizes the enzyme inhibitors and can increase the vitamin and mineral content.”

“Because they are acidic, buttermilk, cultured milk, yoghurt and whey (as well as lemon juice and vinegar) activate the enzyme phytase, which works to break down phytic acid in the bran of grains. Sour milk products also provide lactic acid and lactobacilli that help break down complex starches, irritating tannins and difficult to-digest proteins. Soaking increases vitamin content and makes all the nutrients in grains more available. This method has the further advantage of so softening whole meal flour that the final product is oftenindistinguishable from one made with white flour.”

I usually soak my nuts and seeds in salt water this way they will be salty and I know that salt helps digest protein. I will soak my grains in plain water or yogurt if I am making a recipe like pancakes.,,

I want to happily report that I had great success . . GREAT success at making goat yogurt with my Polyflora capsules! I don't know why I was so hesitant to experiment. Well, yes I do; I only get a goat milk delivery from the farm once a week and didn't want to risk messing up the milk in a way that might not end up making any kind of yogurt. I realize that is unlikely, but, there you go. ::)

Thanks for the inspiration, Cristina and Lola!

I used the ratio of 1 Polyflora capsule for every 12 oz. of warm milk. That measure is just an approximate size of the containers I was using. It could be that 1 capsule per 2 C would work fine. I found that it cultured faster than the milk did when I had been using a store-bought goat yogurt as the starter. 8 hours was perfect. The first time I made it, I left it for 10 hours, because with our chilly nights this time of year, it was taking that long with the way I had been making it. 10 hours gave the culture too long and the smell was rather yeasty. 8 hours is fresh and clean smelling.

The yogurt is creamy smooth and very mild tasting, which is the way I enjoy yogurt. It's thick like a pudding. Now I'm using a Tb of that yogurt per 12 oz of milk to make new batches. (ok)

Posted by: Cristina, Tuesday, September 7, 2010, 6:26pm; Reply: 166

:)

Posted by: Lola, Tuesday, September 7, 2010, 9:14pm; Reply: 167

glad you gave it a shot!!!it takes courage!! ;)

in short,it only takes but 1 polyflora for continuous yogurt delight! ;D

Posted by: honeybee, Wednesday, September 8, 2010, 2:08am; Reply: 168

good links and that yoghurt sounds delish...

now to become an efficient and productive sprouter. (demand > supply)

your shortcuts sound great - but afraid our fridge is overflowing - no room for bowls of grains in water... bench has been sufficient for now.

I want to happily report that I had great success . . GREAT success at making goat yogurt with my Polyflora capsules! .......I used the ratio of 1 Polyflora capsule for every 12 oz. of warm milk. That measure is just an approximate size of the containers I was using. It could be that 1 capsule per 2 C would work fine. I found that it cultured faster than the milk did when I had been using a store-bought goat yogurt as the starter. 8 hours was perfect. The first time I made it, I left it for 10 hours, because with our chilly nights this time of year, it was taking that long with the way I had been making it. 10 hours gave the culture too long and the smell was rather yeasty. 8 hours is fresh and clean smelling.

The yogurt is creamy smooth and very mild tasting, which is the way I enjoy yogurt. It's thick like a pudding. Now I'm using a Tb of that yogurt per 12 oz of milk to make new batches. (ok)

I just tried this using 1 Polyflora for each 8oz milk. I heated the milk to scalding, then let it cool to slightly higher than body temperature before adding the cultures.

It didn't work after 10 hours, came out just like milk.

I am wondering if the Ployflora could have been too old? I had just a few left in a bottle about 3 months old.

Also, do you think it is necessary to heat to scalding if the milk is not raw, but pasturized?

Posted by: Victoria, Monday, September 20, 2010, 1:40am; Reply: 172

How did you keep the temperature of the milk at the right level for those 10 hours?

I use warm water in a small 6-pack sized cooler that has been pre-heated first. The chest is then wrapped in thick towels, and sits on a thick towel, as well.

It's usually perfect for me after 9 hours. 8 hours and it is sometimes too thin still. Once I left it for longer, like 15 hours and it passed the thick stage and grew thin again, and tart. My bottle of Polyflora is at least several months old, because I buy more than one bottle at a time and store on the shelf.

How did you keep the temperature of the milk at the right level for those 10 hours?

I use warm water in a small 6-pack sized cooler that has been pre-heated first. The chest is then wrapped in thick towels, and sits on a thick towel, as well.

It's usually perfect for me after 9 hours. 8 hours and it is sometimes too thin still. Once I left it for longer, like 15 hours and it passed the thick stage and grew thin again, and tart. My bottle of Polyflora is at least several months old, because I buy more than one bottle at a time and store on the shelf.

I followed your technique mentioned on another thread. I heated to scalding, let it cool until it didn't hurt held up to my face, added ingredients of capsules, put into cooler of hot water, wrapped in thick towel, set on another hot towel and left for about 10 hours. It worked perfectly back about May when I used an organic yogurt for cultures. Unfortunately, I got a bout of my long gone diverticulitis right after eating it. I thought I would try again with my blood type Polyflora cultures. My bottle of Polyflora had been opened for about 4 months. The milk was organic pasturized. I am looking for a raw goat milk source. Goat milk may be easier in the long run on my intestinal tract, but I was hoping to at least try the capsules first until then.

Posted by: Victoria, Monday, September 20, 2010, 5:46pm; Reply: 174

I think making yogurt is a very subjective art, and kind of fickle, honestly. ::) There are times my yogurt just doesn't 'yog' for some unknown reason.maybe the milk is too hot and kills the culturemaybe there is some bacteria on the inside of the jarsmaybe the chest doesn't hold the heat well enoughmaybe it sits too longmaybe it sits too short a timemaybe some competing microorganisms got into the mixmaybe it's the milk, and a different brand/animal/? would change the outcome

Hard to say. I just keep at it because healthy probiotics with some kind of healthy dairy seems to be essential for my gut health. Right now, I've found a good source of clean, raw, local goat milk, and the Polyflora B is working well. Otherwise, I'd just keep making yogurt, using the best choice of milk that I could find; and use a ready-made yogurt with live culture in it. Or I'd buy packaged culture if I had to. I just keep on ticking, like that Energizer bunny! ;)

Posted by: Drea, Tuesday, September 21, 2010, 2:18am; Reply: 175

I learned something interesting: split peas won't sprout. Am I the only one who didn't know this before experimenting?

I think making yogurt is a very subjective art, and kind of fickle, honestly. ::) There are times my yogurt just doesn't 'yog' for some unknown reason.maybe the milk is too hot and kills the culturemaybe there is some bacteria on the inside of the jarsmaybe the chest doesn't hold the heat well enoughmaybe it sits too longmaybe it sits too short a timemaybe some competing microorganisms got into the mixmaybe it's the milk, and a different brand/animal/? would change the outcome

Hard to say. I just keep at it because healthy probiotics with some kind of healthy dairy seems to be essential for my gut health. Right now, I've found a good source of clean, raw, local goat milk, and the Polyflora B is working well. Otherwise, I'd just keep making yogurt, using the best choice of milk that I could find; and use a ready-made yogurt with live culture in it. Or I'd buy packaged culture if I had to. I just keep on ticking, like that Energizer bunny! ;)

I'll keep trying with Polyflora B. I think I'll order some new. I am encouraged by your results. We did it the same way this time as we did with the organic yogurt culture. The organic yogurt turned out fine, but I got diverticulitis. I am not going to do that again. I would rather stick to my B cultures. My husband boiled the very-clean-already jars and I am a germaphobe, so I am certain we had good clean technique. I won't give up. Still looking for a souce of raw goat milk. I'll try a different organic cow's milk in the meantime.