Competition and cooperation at sea will continue to be central features of the international security scene. Strategies
to address challenges emanating from the oceans and littoral spaces—70 percent of the earth's surface—will be a leading test of transatlantic and global partnership in the years to come.

The current renaissance in maritime security has been driven by important trends in the strategic environment. Attacks on commercial shipping in Southeast Asia, the Red Sea, Central America, and Africa have underscored the vulnerability of world shipping in unstable regions, and drawn attention to the close relationship between "ungoverned spaces" ashore and threats in adjacent coastal areas. The international response to the resurgence of piracy in recent years also points to the utility of multilateral responses, and the need for close coordination with the private sector.

Since 9/11, counterterrorism has acquired a prominent maritime dimension. NATO's Operation Active Endeavor in
the Mediterranean and joint efforts elsewhere, offer an example of what can be done and provide lessons for the future.
Links to energy and environmental security are also part of the equation, especially given the growth of liquefied natural gas (LNG) trade and the place of ports in "homeland security." Efforts to address weapons of mass destruction (WMD)
proliferation will continue to have a strong maritime component, and the refashioned U.S. approach to ballistic missile defense architecture will place critical assets afloat. Both efforts will have important implications for cooperation with
transatlantic partners, and place a premium on making the maritime space more "transparent."

Climate change, too, is reshaping the maritime security environment. Warmer seas are making the Northwest Passage a viable route for commercial shipping, and pose the possibility of new geopolitical competition in the high north. Government and private sector stakeholders are only beginning to come to terms with the implications of this question.

Finally, the global security scene will be influenced by the evolving naval postures of established maritime powers and the bluewater aspirations of rising actors, including China and India.

Ms. Susan Bonner

Susan Bonner is one of Canada's top political journalists, currently reporting from Washington, DC on the day’s top stories from the White House and Capitol Hill. Ms. Bonner's reports appear on CBC News Network, as well as CBC News' "The National." Most recently, she was a parliamentary reporter for CBC Television, where she played a key role in all federal political coverage for the network, including live hits and analysis on throne speeches, budgets, cabinet shuffles, party leadership and policy conventions, and first ministers’ meetings. Her 20-year journalistic career has taken her from daily reporting in Saskatoon and Calgary, to political journalism in Halifax and Montreal, where she was assigned to an elite investigative documentary unit producing high-profile documentaries for CBC Television. Ms. Bonner has worked the entire editorial chain, from desk editor at "The National" to producing a daily news and current affairs program for CBC Newsworld called "The Lead." Before taking up the national political beat in Ottawa, she was the economics reporter for "The National."

Admiral Mark Fitzgerald

Admiral Mark Fitzgerald is commander of U.S. naval forces in Europe and Africa. He is responsible for providing overall command, operational control, and coordination of U.S. naval forces in the European and African Command area of responsibility. As commander of Allied Joint Force Command Naples, Admiral Fitzgerald currently has operational responsibility for NATO missions in the Balkans, Iraq, and the Mediterranean. He assumed his duties on November 30, 2007. Admiral Fitzgerald graduated from Northeastern University, Boston. He holds a master's degree in aeronautical systems engineering from the University of West Florida and attended the Naval War College, Newport, Rhode Island. He was designated a naval aviator in October 1975. He flew the A-7E Corsair II during sea assignments in VA-195 (1976-1979), Carrier Air Wing 17 (1982-1984), and VA-105 (1985-1988) embarked aboard USS Kitty Hawk (CV 63), USS America (CV 66), and USS Forrestal (CV 59). He led the first Navy strike on Baghdad during the opening hour of Operation Desert Storm. Fitzgerald’s awards include the Navy Distinguished Service Medal, Defense Superior Service Medal, Legion of Merit (four awards), Distinguished Flying Cross with Combat V (two awards), Bronze Star, Defense Meritorious Service Medal (two awards), Air Medals, and numerous individual, campaign, and unit awards. He has logged over 4,800 flight hours and has made over 1,100 carrier arrested landings from the decks of 13 aircraft carriers.

Peter MacKay

Peter MacKay is Canada's national defense minister. He is also a member of parliament for Central Nova, Nova Scotia, a seat he has held since 1997. He is a member of the Foreign Affairs and National Security Committee and serves on the Treasury Board and Planning and Priorities Cabinet Committees. Before becoming defense minister in 2007, Minister MacKay was the country's minister of foreign affairs. He also played a leading role in the creation of the Conservative Party, which merged the Progressive Conservative Party and Canadian Alliance Party. Prior to pursuing politics, Minister MacKay worked as a lawyer, serving as the crown attorney for the Central Region of Nova Scotia, appearing regularly in provincial, family, and Supreme Court.

Eimert van Middelkoop

The Honorable Eimert Van Middelkoop attended Erasmus University where he obtained a bachelor's degree in sociology in 1971. In the years 1971 and 1972, he was a teacher at the Reformed Social Academy in Zwolle. In 1989, Mr. Van Middelkoop became a member of the Netherlands House of Representatives. He initially was a member of the Reformed Political Alliance until 2000, where he joined the Christian Union, a party formed by merging the Reformed Political Alliance and Reformatory Political Federation. As a parliamentarian he specialized in foreign and military affairs. Mr. Van Middelkoop led the investigation of a special committee investigating the role of the Netherlands in the fall of Srebrenica. From 2003 until 2007, Mr. Van Middelkoop was a member of the Senate. In the 2006 elections, the party doubled its seats and joined the fourth Balkenende cabinet. Mr. Van Middelkoop became minister of defense in 2007.

MODERATOR: We are going to bring you in as often and as quickly as we can. I wouldlike to begin by getting an overview of the issue from each of our panelists on the maritimesecurity challenges, the global challenges that we face, how you see them, how you see thethreats and how you see the response to those threats. We'll begin with you ministerMacKay.THE HON. PETER G. MACKAY: Before I make any remarks I would like to go high techand just roll a bit of video that is broadcast from the HMCS Fredrickson, commander SteveLiddell and 200 plus Canadian sailors who are transiting the Suez, have transited the Suez whoare south bound in the Red Sea toward the horn of Africa and are taking part in NATO taskforce anti?counter piracy exercises that are going on there as part of the broader effort. Just toput it in a bit of context before we start the discussions. So if we could roll that tape.SPEAKER: VIDEOWhat I would like to share with you today is a few things about my ship's company and whatthey firmly believe representing Canada and abroad. First we believe that they are in this partof the world because they are doing something that's important to Canada. There are fewbetter ways to indicate a resolve for a country to show what they need to do like dispatching awar ship. And indeed so many countries have done that over the water here. Many of mysailors have been here before, several times already and since 1991 in the first gulf war wedeployed individual frigates, [INAUDIBLE] and Canada contributes to this international effort atsea and we often lead it as well. Second we also understand we are here because navies givegovernments options. Last year [INAUDIBLE] of Quebec was deployed with the NATO taskgroup when the request came in to world food program to offer escort to humanitarian[INAUDIBLE]. If she hadn't been there at the time the request might not have been able to be inaction, so that was a great opportunity for foreign deployed ships to be able to act ongovernments requests. Similarly you can see the [INAUDIBLE] she was with the NATO taskgroup earlier this year when she was dispatched to the horn of Africa region, the very place weare going to be operating in the next few months.Third we also know we are here not just to counter piracy terrorism more broadly it isall about making sure the worlds oceans are free for all of us to use because an unregulatedmaritime environment is a threat to our very way of life. Maritime security is critical to globaleconomic prosperity and the delivery of humanitarian aid, international assistance, trade,development. Maritime nations understand this and they also know that the oceans no longershield this from distant events as they once did in the past. The implications of this are beyondthe reach of any single Navy in our nation. Addressing them requires collaboration. That's whywe are here with NATO. We are working alongside the European Union and other like mindednations. Even recently beside non?traditional partners and we are all here with a commonpurpose. The world's navies are all united by the common care of the seas. They require aunique opportunity that doesn't require translation from one language to another. And forcenturies this is served upon as the basis upon which the diplomacy of nations has been built.In closing as sailors know we are here to build trust among the nations of the world.They also know that I have every confidence in their ability to do just that. And for my ship'scompany at the end of the day it is really quite simple. They see what is happening in the worldand they want to do something about it. And their Navy is giving them that chance.THE HON. PETER G. MACKAY: I think you can see from Commander Liddells message there is avery practical element to this. The world's commerce much of which comes now by the oceansas well as the element of protecting and preventing attacks on vessels that are moving throughvarious ocean lanes now that require us to continue to keep those lanes open so that we cantake part in, for example, the reference to the world food program. That literally savedthousands, hundreds of thousands of lives during a drought in Somalia. Much of what we areseeing in terms of piracy today is brought about by desperation, first when you see very realcrisis of drought, of desperate poor situations, that leads to acts of piracy but also it hasbecome very much an organized crime in an element that is very deliberate and very pointed athijacking vessels, taking persons ransom, that has been a recent experience. And the numbershave, in fact, I don't want to say sky rocketed, that may be over stating the fact. But this is aproblem that is not going away. The international component and the partnerships that aretaking place right now on NATO operations on EU operations will require standardizing certainpractices particularly around what do we do with individuals we capture. Right now theemphasis for Canada is on protection and deterrents, but there is this very real issue of what dowe do when we catch somebody in the act of piracy. So there is an international component, adomestic component. Some have suggested you take pirates back to your own jurisdiction andthere is a great deal of debate on that. And I guess finally on the issue what we need todetermine is, is it necessary at this point because of this looming crisis to convene aninternational conference of sorts to set down some standardized approaches because it hasbeen rather ad hoc in my opinion what is the best body to deal with the issues of piracy? Howdo we continue to coordinate these efforts and how do we, for example, engage some of thosecountries most affected who are outside the bodies of the European Union and NATO. So I'mposing questions, I suppose, back, but Canada takes its role very seriously as demonstrated byour deployment of the Fredrickson, weve deployed ships previously the H.M. [INAUDIBLE] wasthere we had the Winipeg there last year which I had the pleasure to visit at Christmas. As youcan see first and foremost our sailors are extremely proud of the effort and the contributionthat they're making. And Canada as a maritime nation intends to continue its contributions foreconomic reasons and also for humanitarian reasons.MODERATOR: Thank you Minister MacKay. Admiral Fitzgerald you are not just at thecenter of this issue you are in some ways at the very top of it commanding fleets andoverseeing missions. Your perspective on the issue.ADMIRAL MARK FITZGERALD: A couple of thoughts. First of all, what really is our threatout there? When you look at what's happening in Africa because that's really what impacts inEurope it's not just the piracy issue in Somalia that's a crisis. Down in the Gulf of Guinea wherewe are doing a lot of work we are seeing violent piracy down there where it is not ships that aretaken it's people that are taken and held hostage and ransomed and people are getting killeddown there. We are seeing drug smuggling which used to come out of South America northwhich has now been pretty much I wouldn't say stopped but very slowed down. Those drugsare now coming into Africa by sea destabilizing countries in Africa but then working their wayup into Europe where places on the Iberian Peninsula like Spain who used to be the lowestconsumers of cocaine 10 years ago are now the biggest consumers. Piracy started by illegalfishing in Somalia. In the Gulf of Guinea it is a one billion a dollar year loss to the countries inthe Gulf of Guinea, plus the stocks of fish are getting fished out. Illegal immigration andmovement of illicit cargoes come by sea. And we have been doing in the MediterraneanNATOs Article 5 operation active endeavor since 2001 where we are going after counterterrorism, counter W M D. The list goes on. We just saw the Israelis stop a ship with UNSCRprohibited cargo heading in.So we have this whole conundrum of how we stop this trafficking at sea? The ministertalked very eloquently about how do we get to a point where right now we have almost a kindof shooting the arrow kind of problem. We are out there trying to catch pirates in small dowswhere there are thousands of small dows out at sea, how do we get at the root cause of this?We have a tactical piece which is the Navy at sea, we have a strategic piece which is the UNwhere they are steering committees and contact groups but we don't have an operational piecethat goes after the money.For instance I was down in Kenya not too long ago and they were complaining that all ofthese rich Somalias were coming in and buying up all the real estate in Nairobi and Mombassa,I wonder where that money came from. The logistics speak. Anecdotally we see fishermenfrom Yemen going to sea with numerous 55?gallon drums of gas on their ships that theyprobably don't need. We know that the price of out board motors in Yemen has gone up twoand a half times what they used to cost. And the law enforcement piece. How do we go afterthe middle men? How do we go after the financiers and how do we jail these pirates? Weneed something in the middle and whether that is commissioned under the UN, whether anorganization such as the euro NATO takes that on. I think NATO is probably not the right choicebecause it is a law enforcement piece that were talking about here, but something in themiddle there that brings all of that together has to come.And then other piece is building capacity. We tend to focus on single countries when wereally need to focus on regions. And we need to focus on functions, things like energy securityor whatever. When you look at the Straights of Babe el Mandel, more than 50 percent of theworld's oil flow through them. How do we build capacity in the countries around there so thatthey can competently protect these places and we don't have to be sending our ships from ourcountries down there?MODERATOR: Thank you very much Admiral. Minister Van Middelkoop, yourperspective.THE HON. EIMERT VAN MIDDELKOOP: You will realize this is very interesting becauseyou have a long history of thinking [INAUDIBLE] and liberal and he founded [INAUDIBLE] thefree sea and is today. In our days we do realize that in our global village the seas are more andmore also the domain of illegal activities: illegal fishing; illegal migrant; and proliferation ofweapons. That is one of the reasons why the UN had the Unifill Taskforce in the Mediterraneanfor the coast of Lebanon.The second issue, more specific, of course, is piracy. And I suppose we can come backon details later. [INAUDIBLE] When I start two and a half years ago as a Minister of Defense allof my focus was on Afghanistan. But it is also on the region south of Aden off of the coast ofSomalia. Now we are commanding a EU maritime taskforce [INAUDIBLE] for ships on aneveryday basis. I got reports from that area. I think it is on a general level interesting thatpiracy is part of the problems we have to face that there is a large part of this world that isdisconnected or the [INAUDIBLE] one of the famous [INAUDIBLE]. The poor people, especiallyin Africa but also in some parts of Asia ? and they can [INAUDIBLE] our interest in a lot of ways.One of the areas is piracy but it is only one of them. And we have to realize that the realcauses, of course, are not on the sea but is on the fragile state of Somalia. I can tell you moreabout that but maybe later.The third point is also interesting. After the fall of the Wall, after the ending, more orless, of the [INAUDIBLE] there was a kind of return from the high seas to more to thecontinents, from the blue water to the brown water. Also, a lot of people though that youcould sell your sophisticated [INAUDIBLE] and you could build less sophisticated ocean going[INAUDIBLE] vessel. And we are still in the process. Now we realize that upcoming countrieslike India and China, again, now are entering the high seas. For instance, China is building a lotof Navy stations in the neighborhood of India and I suppose that can be perceived as a threat toIndia. The high seas are dead, more or less, and we have to develop more maritime awarenessand it will be also a more prevalent place on our strategic analysis.MODERATOR: Thank you very much. As I listen to you I'm struck by what we havehere. We have so much in this issue. We have organized crime. We have piracy. We havesmuggling of weapons. We have international relations. We have military and navaldeployments. We have new alliances being formed. It is a huge subject and we're going tobring as many people into it as we can. Perhaps we can begin with the issue of piracy and seewhere that takes us because it does touch on some of these themes. I forgot to mention wealso have perhaps some power plays between some of our international organizations, theEuropean Union versus NATO for example, we may hear more about that.On the issue of piracy is this an issue in your view one that we can solve or is it aproblem that we are simply trying to manage?ADMIRAL MARK FITZGERALD: Piracy is not really a naval problem. I mean, the result isnaval but it is kind of like a bank robber. They are out there robbing the bank and then usingthe sanctuary of land as their hide out. And so you really have to go after the hide out here. Sohow do you get at the land problem of this? You can't just go in there and take a kinetic and goand bomb and [INAUDIBLE] because my count today was 13 ships and 270 hostages. So youcan't put those people at risk. So how do you get at those people? And as I alluded to in myopening remarks, I think you have to go after the money because that's what it is really allabout. It started as we have people illegally fishing in our economic zone but it is quicklyturning into organized crime. So you have to get after that piece of it.I think the other piece of it is that you have to start building some capacity in thegovernment. And the government of Putland is working with the Gibudi to start training outsome maritime professionals. That will take a long period of time but it is certainly a worthyeffort to start at. Whether you will ever get a stable Somalia I have some significant doubtsabout how stable you will get Somalia but you certainly can start to go after those pieces onland that enable the pirates to go to sea.MODERATOR: And yet you were suggesting that it is not just off the coast of Somalia.Obviously this is an issue that is in many of our seas.ADMIRAL MARK FITZGERALD: Absolutely. In the Gulf of Guinea we are spending a lot oftime because you have much more stable government governments you have much morecapacity there. 18 percent of the oil that is coming to North America is coming out of the Gulfof Guinea, so you have a lot of money down there trying to build up what we consider the fourpillars, having a picture, being able to train the professionals, being able to build up theinfrastructure and being able to respond and doing that in a regional way so that thosecountries can start to protect that economic exclusions.MODERATOR: Piracy, of course, has a long tradition. But it is really a problem that iscalling for a nontraditional response. Has the problem been enhanced because perhaps theinitial response was a traditional response of task force, naval task forces?THE HON. PETER G. MACKAY: I think that is very true, Susan. I think it has changed. Ithink just like the face of war changed dramatically to insurgency and counter insurgency. Wehave to modernize our approaches. And there is a whole basket of problems and differentelements to this what I would phrase the larger term of maritime security. Piracy being oneand perhaps the one that has received the most publicity. And I still think the public hasn'tquite dialed in to how important this is, imagine if you closed down some of the major shippinglines in the world today. Imagine if you took Suez and Panama out of commission for example.This is not the pirates of eye patches and peg legs and parrots. I mean, this is a very seriousproblem that could literally grind economies of the world to a halt if it is allowed to proliferate.And there is drug trade, there is very much human smuggling. There are elements, in fact, Idont want to sound alarmist or extreme but if a ship carrying a dirty bomb came into a port likeHalifax and we have seen the effects of a huge explosion in this harbor what it can do to apopulation, those are very real concerns that we have to address. And so I think thecommercial sector is actually responding quicker and with more dexterity than government.They are doing much more screening on containers, for example, they are taking the actualinfrastructure and port security more seriously. My concern is I don't think the internationalcommunity has a coordinated approach. I don't think we have even identified, for example,how we are going to address some of the major concerns about keeping shipping lines open.And the desperation in many of the countries of Africa as the Admiral has said, those are theroot causes that are the driver or the incentive, if you will, for pirates to go out on the waterand try to hijack ships for cargo or kidnapping purposes.MODERATOR: Mr. Van Middelkoop from the European perspective the effect of piracyto Europe's goods that come into Europe is immediate and present. We have already seensome examples of the European economy taking a hit from some of the action on the seas. Inyour view is the management of the problem now where it needs to be? We've been lookingat this for years and yet people see the same ship attacked this week that was attackedearlier this year off the coast of Somalia the Maersk.THE HON. EIMERT VAN MIDDELKOOP: Maybe further from the coast of Somalia than ayear ago. The area is huge. It is about a thousand miles from the coast of Somalia so it is verydifficult. I have been along side the NATO summiting and with Peter MacKay on this issue.[INAUDIBLE] say that NATO has the first responsibility and well being pragmatic I am a memberof the EU as well as from NATO. And it doesnt matter what flag is on it if it happens.On the other hand the strategic concept for NATO is of course is worldwide and I think[INAUDIBLE] so we have to use NATO. But on the other end Europe has a lot of experience withAfrica, in Africa. They have a lot more money for doing jobs like training, for instance. Thisweek, Monday and Tuesday in Brussels we took a decision to plan, only to plan [INAUDIBLE] inthe European Union to plan for training soldiers from Somalia or trying to [INAUDIBLE] thepossibility for the coast guards. I do realize it is a hell of a job and it will take years. But if youranalysis is that the real problem is on the ground you have to do something over there. Andthat's what we are doing.My compliments for the Navy is that they are very creative. The job is very traditional.The Navy is protecting the merchants. One of my new experiences is that I am now under aconstant pressure of [INAUDIBLE] I like it because I have a good Navy and I can answer. Thecompliment is that the EU and NATO together found solutions for protecting the corridor southwhere about 20 or 30,000 ships a year do pass. We don't have so many ships so we have tofind a solution. And they did. So the last year, I think, there was no ship hijacked in thatcorridor. And from a point of view of protecting real interest of what is very important.Side effect, a very interesting side effect is that we are now coordinating our efforts withthe Chinese, for instance, even ships from Iran. My view is that cooperating at sea is always farmore easy than land but that is a very general remark.MODERATOR: Why is that?THE HON. EIMERT VAN MIDDELKOOP: The interesting thing is even from a globalstrategic perspective the Chinese are coming out more or less, in the first place in economicsthey are becoming active in Africa. They are not the political global players the United Stateswas and is and shall be for a lot of years. But now they realize that their real economic interestsare threatened somewhere else far outside China in the world. So they have to do something.So their defense policies have to become global. About a month ago they were very hesitant orreluctant to cooperate with the EU. There was a conversation only with the Commander andthat was it. A couple of weeks later a Chinese ship was hijacked and within a couple of daysthere was a relation between EU [INAUDIBLE] and the Chinese. And I think that even theCommander or the Commander in [INAUDIBLE] went to Beijing for having some talks with theChinese. So a lot of ships are coming in. And that makes it more [INAUDIBLE] I do realize thatit was even before. So that is today my answer.MODERATOR: I think perhaps we can bring in the audience now. I see we have a lot ofquestions.AUDIENCE: Thank you for your time. Great to see you here. I am General Renuart, I amCommander of Norad and U.S. northern command and this particular topic is a particularlyimportant one for us. In our Norad role we are tasked by both the government of the UnitedStates and Canada to provide maritime warning of threats to each of our two nations. In myU.S. national hat I'm charged with home land defense and civil support which has a certainmaritime defense element to it, a significant one.Mr. van Middelkoop, you mentioned defense becoming more global. And AdmiralFitzgerald mentioned this is not a naval issue its a law enforcement issue and my dilemma and Ithink for many nations is that gray area that is between defense of a nations state threat andlaw enforcement or security of criminal activities and the like. And it seems to me that piracytoday fits in both of those domains. And so I ask maybe for the opinions of the ministers onhow nations come to grips with that gray area between what is traditionally a defense of thenation and traditionally what is a law enforcement activity and should we try to define it socleanly? Or should we accept the gray area that is there and understand that it is both a Navyproblem and a law enforcement problem? Thank you.MODERATOR: Would you like to begin, minister?THE HON. EIMERT VAN MIDDELKOOP: It gives me the opportunity to support Mr.MacKay when he says that we need an international conference on this issue. Because a lot ofproblems [INAUDIBLE]. You are right. It is law enforcement. But we are mandated by thesecurity counsel to do what we are doing there, NATO and the EU and [INAUDIBLE] we candeter and do something with piracy.I know there are countries where it's in their constitution forbidden to use militarymeans for [INAUDIBLE] not in my constitution, but they have to realize that if they have realsecurity problems at sea or commercial problems at sea they have to find an answer. You cantsend a policeman in a boat on the sea. There are more legal issues I'm faced with. Forinstance, what shall we do if a Somolian pirate is asking asylum when he is on my ship? Andyou all understand that is not very [INAUDIBLE] if you bring in every day pirates. We get 4 or 5.They had a very good time in our prison. It is far better living there than in Somalia. So thosequestions we have to solve. There is a constant 24 hours 7 days a week line between theCommander and the prosecutor in my country, to solve this crisis as soon as possible. Andespecially finding a solution there in that region. The EU has made a covenant with Kenya thatwe can bring pirates to Kenya and they will be prosecuted there.I'm afraid that will not last so there are also talks with the [INAUDIBLE] and I think wehave to find new solutions of being there for court. And there are ideas from [INAUDIBLE]court in the region, something like that but that I do realize is an issue for long term.MODERATOR: Minister MacKay.THE HON. PETER G. MACKAY: It is a penetrating statement obviously to say it is complexbecause every country unless you are land locked is going to have Admiralty laws that willapply. There are jurisdictional issues whether you are inside or outside territorial water. Thereare issues, of course, and I think that General Renuart and the Admiral's comments are correctthat it is a law enforcement issue. And I think if there was a simple solution which there neveris would be to build the capacity of coast guard because there are more appropriate means, Isuppose, to police the waters than the Navy. But as Admiral Dean McPhadden will agree thereis nothing that announces its presence with authority than a fully loaded battle ship in a sealane. However, that deterrents only goes so far. When you get into the thick of it and you haveto actually intervene and take prisoners as a result of the attack on a ship as we have seen on anumber of occasions, then you're seized with the issue. Now, do you put them shore in acountry where youre able to negotiate an agreement, a transfer arrangement? Does thatsound familiar, with a country like Kenya [INAUDIBLE] or others? Some of these countries, Ithink are now into a bit of a bargaining process with countries. Sure we would be willing toenter into an arrangement with you. By the way, what is our international aid and this hasbecome problematic. I am stating the obvious. There is no standardized approach thus far thatappears to be providing any real answers. We're taking a patchwork quilt approach to what hasbecome a significant problem. And that, again, we are still on the subject of piracy. There arestill broader issues and one that I think would be a concern to many in this room is theenvironmental impact because if a little dow goes out loaded with gasoline or oil or other toxicmaterials and capsizes or winds up in waters that are very sensitive it impacts on fishing,severely on the environment. I wont go into the subject of the arctic yet but our arctic watersare opening up. That puts a whole new front in terms of our vulnerability as a country, as acontinent as to who is navigating those waters and what impact that will have economically andenvironmentally.ADMIRAL MARK FITZGERALD: Just one quick comment which is the defense and thissecurity. We have a hard time struggling with that. And NATO as we develop our new strategicconcept we've got to come to grips with this because as we see in even Afghanistan drugsbecome a big issue to the security of the country yet that's not a traditional role of defense ofNATO. And so I think you're absolutely right, Gene, in that we've got to decide how thoseoverlapping capabilities of law enforcement and defense fit together and don't leave any seamsin there.MODERATOR: I know there are lots of questions in the audience and I'll start with thisgentleman right here. We just might come to you right away.AUDIENCE: You have rightly stressed the need for a closer scrutiny attention to the linkbetween piracy and failing states. There is indeed a positive correlation between the incidentsof piracy and the level of the sea ships here in the coastal states. What do you think of theproposal to expand the definition, legal definition of piracy to include the territorial waters offailing states? That's a tricky legal question. Another is associated with the problem ofprosecution of the pirates you mentioned. You mentioned the agreement between EU andKenya. But also it cannot last for long. What do you think for the proposal to establish ad hocinternational tribunal to deal with pirates?MODERATOR: Who would like to begin there?THE HON. EIMERT VAN MIDDELKOOP: Let me try. I'm not a legal expert but I can I thinkanswer your first question about expanding definition of piracy. It is, in fact, expound by theSecurity Counsel allowing us, NATO, EU, whatever, into the territorial waters to do the same asoutside. So there is no problem there as far as the definition is concerned. It is an internationalcrime and we can accomplish this inside the territorial waters. But we need a resolution of thesecurity counsel. So it is pretty important. Of course I do believe I have to believe that bringingto a court is a road you have to walk on because if you believe in the rule of law it is impossibleto live with a situation that they cannot be brought to court. But you realize how difficult it is.We have some experiences with Rowanda, Yugoslavia, etc.MR. YUKIO OKAMOTO: My Minister of Foreign Affairs is trying to find a solution tothat. But next to that trying to find the networks, where the money is going to, is, I think,almost just as important. There's one specific piracy issue that I have to mention. In myParliament there is a strong pressure on me to bring military owned ships. It is naive in acouple of ways because there are so many ships, etc. There are a lot of legal issues you have tosolve and it is almost impossible. One of the reasons I am resisting this is I am afraid of anescalation of firearms, dont forget they are interested not in fighting, but money and that isthe reason why you have to be careful with defense equipment and sometimes you have toaccept although we are not responsible ? that is a kind of bribery and money is paid, not bygovernments, I hope. Not by my government. That shows that it is not only a military problembut also a legal and far more broader problem.MODERATOR: Mr. MacKay you wanted to say something.THE HON. PETER G. MACKAY: Just briefly in the response to the suggestion that wewould essentially take control of a country's internal waters or coastal waters. I think thatwould be very problematic. There is the UN convention on the law of the sea that may havesome application here. But international and admiralty law is voluminous. I think it is downmore to the practicalities of how do we protect our own interests and those of countries wewant to assist. Its a bit analogist to everyone's desire to do something but without thecooperation of their government how do we bring effect? This subject of the shipping lanesthemselves coming under attack, until such time as we are able to come to an internationalagreement or solution in what is the best means to do so, not to [INAUDIBLE] the point onNATO versus EU, I do believe that NATO is more depth given its military capacity right now andits ability to partner with other countries while clearly not the best solution it seems to me tobe the most practical one until we are able to broaden the net, pardon the maritime pun, ofincluding countries like China, like Russia, like Turkey, countries that are currently not in the EU.NATO seems to be the epicenter of a solution that will include more countries. And I guessfinally what we really need to do is focus on those root causes of piracy and address thesolutions through the countries from which the pirates, themselves find their origins.MODERATOR: Another question from the audience.AUDIENCE: German Ambassador, former legal advisor, one brief comment. I fully agreethat there is nobody to simply allow in general to enter the territorial waters of failed or failingstates. The security counsel did it in the case of Somalia which was an individual case with theconsent of the Somalia government [INAUDIBLE] with an explicit line in the resolution that thiswould not set the precedents for other cases. My questions one is I see two defense ministers,one Admiral of mighty war ships say things [INAUDIBLE] the law enforcement questions. Doyou see any chance or would you deem it wise to build a kind of capacity for an internationalnaval police force because it is a lot of law enforcement? My second question, MinisterMiddelkoop, as you do, we do, we hand over detainees to Kenya for the time being. I don'tknow what Canada and the U.S. are doing. Would you prefer something like the ICC criminalcourt based in the [INAUDIBLE] to have jurisdiction over pirates? And my third question verybrief, away from piracy proliferation security initiative, trying to get rid of the proliferation ofweapons of mass destruction. You have the ships but you have no legal basis. It is not a legalinstrument, Resolution 1540 does not allow the interception of ships, the boarding of ships ifthey fly a flag and if they do not consent to it. So is there mainly a lack of legal instrumentsunlike in the piracy cases?MODERATOR: Admiral let me start with you. Would you like to comment on the ideaof an international police force?ADMIRAL MARK FITZGERALD: There's obviously a lot of things that go into thatparticular question. There's the practical issue of this is a long way from home. You've got tobe able to refuel the ships. You've got to be able to stay at sea for a long period of time. I'massuming a coast guard or small vessel kind of force they may not be able to get to sea. Theymay not be able to get the fuel, they may not have the distance. We are starting to see thepirates roam around half the Indian Ocean and that requires vessels with some stamina. I'mnot sure how you would build that force, who would fund it and once the piracy issue washopefully solved what you would then do with it. We've got ships that were developed formulti warfare missions. This is just one of those missions. It seems to be the best use of thoseright now.MODERATOR: So you have assumed the responsibility, in other words.ADMIRAL MARK FITZGERALD: Unfortunately but true, or maybe fortunately. One otherpiece we seem to be painting Kenya as the fix all, end all for the trying of pirates. To not getreal specific Kenya has significant problems in their jails. They are over crowded by a factor of 3to 4. Their judicial system has significant issues with it and is prone to bribery. And so I don'tbelieve we've yet had the first successful criminal trial of pirates there. And there have beenseveral let go. So there's some issues there. And so I think we do need a better solution to howwe incarcerate these pirates.MODERATOR: Ministers would you like to respond?THE HON. PETER G. MACKAY: Just to follow up on that point. Very complex issues. Ifyou turn over detainees and again the situation that Canada and others are seized with now.Then you have to institute a rigorous system of follow up and monitoring. You then, I think, aremorally obliged to do more as far as training of guards and officials as well as investing in theirlegal capacity. It is a subject matter of capacity building then within that country. As soon asyou take someone aboard you take responsibility for that person.That's why I think a lot of countries that are involved in the anti piracy issues right nowsimply don't take prisoners. They deter, they protect and patrol but they don't actuallyintervene which I suppose is the same as combat versus nom combat. If you are not preparedto take prisoners you are limited in your ability to fight a war. So this subject matter is one thatrequires logically thinking through the next step. And once you take on responsibility for aninternational policing effort of the water, where does that end? And how far does it extend?And clearly your own citizens are going to ask what does that cost. In the case of our countrywe have a massive coast line to patrol here in North America plus our NORAD responsibility formaritime approaches.So with each answer or solution comes 15 other questions that you have to be preparedto answer.THE HON. EIMERT VAN MIDDELKOOP: I can [INAUDIBLE] what is the [INAUDIBLE] butstill I need, I think the military equipment for this kind of intelligence we have a long traditionfor in the Caribbean because part of the Netherlands is the Caribbean. We do cooperate withthe Americans. [INAUDIBLE] we have airplanes for civilians. You have to use militaryequipment to solve this type of criminality. Because youre right. Its criminality. It is not aclassical war[INAUDIBLE]The second point, maybe there's kind of a solution in between, but now I'm improvisingand thats risky for a minister. You will realize that. Bringing in Kenya and the [INAUDIBLE]bringing them in the end you have Kenya will end. I'm sure. So that is the reason why the EU isnow bargaining with [INAUDIBLE] etc. You know and I suppose far better than I know how longit took for most of the countries in the world, not all, to accept that [INAUDIBLE] but if we aresucceeding to bring some back to Somalia itself that will be helpful to bring them to court inSomalia. I'm not sure which country it was but a couple of months ago some pirates werebrought to Somalia and brought to court there. And I can tell you the punishment was terriblefor those guys in that country. So if we are succeeding in [INAUDIBLE] for the government alsoin the role of law, we can give them back to the country where they belong.MODERATOR: I've got many questions building up. You're next but I want to beginwith you here. We have a microphone. You have been waiting patiently. Thank you.AUDIENCE: Thank you. [INAUDIBLE] German Ministry of Defense. I share lots of[INAUDIBLE] on comments that I've heard. I would like to come back to one. What is really ofvery importance about what Navy can do, what our missions can do and what is to go to theroots, maybe, of the issue. I wouldn't think that anybody here would be able to counterfereand counteract against the phenomenon of piracy which has occurred I think in the antiquetimes up to the future but maybe to decrease the number of piracy acts. If you fly he federalaircraft over Somalia and [INAUDIBLE] you are able to see where they are, where the[INAUDIBLE] you can see every individual. I would like to get a comment on how far you fromyour??admiral from your Navy experience in this region you could share the observation thattwo things we could and should do. The first is that we should organize somehow a regimewhich allows all the failed states, but the living citizens there to get by fishing an income. If yousee, by the way, how many [INAUDIBLE] in the Gulf of Aden are actually there from richcountries it is very interesting to see. How is the possibility that there could be assistance ofthe Navy in controlling because I'm very skeptical? But we have to report from the EuropeanUnion. And the second is what could be done about contingency building? I refer to the Frenchattempt, to have a police training of Somali policeman, especially in the sense of a coast guardto do that?MODERATOR: Someone will take that for you. Thank you. I think we have touched onthe policing a bit, but on the issue of the failed fishing industry in Somalia and the root causesof the piracy, the suggestion that these are social bandits and what kind of response that callsfor?ADMIRAL MARK FITZGERALD: Well, it's interesting because a lot of the countries thatfish in that area don't want to tell us where those boats are and the fishermen obviously roamthe seas. And clearly a country owns its economic exclusions on that. Up to 200 miles it issupposed to enforce that zone. If it can't enforce it does that give another person the right topoach in that area? I touched on that in the Gulf of Guinea. We are losing a billion dollars ayear down there. The stocks are getting fished out. The same thing is happening in Somalia.And so the nations that are responsible for that I think have to enforce that. Should the Navydo that? That's not a Navy task. Navies aren't empowered typically to do law enforcementactivities. We certainly can report but we are non enforcement.So anyway that's kind of my short answer to that.MODERATOR: Mr. MacKay, is this a topic for your proposed international conference?THE HON. PETER G. MACKAY: I think it is. I think we are touching on a whole range ofsubjects. There is an international legal framework that I think has to be addressed which iscomplex and like most legal things can become very convoluted quickly. There is just thepractical of how we coordinate what we're doing currently. Because in the short term that's allwe have. Its the international contributions of the countries like The Netherlands, NATOcountries, EU countries, those that find themselves outside those definitions and getting themthere which also involves, in my view, greater coordination because it is not happeningcurrently. Intelligence sharing which we know in military circles is always challenging,[INAUDIBLE] intelligence, human intelligence on the preventative side and that goes back to thesources of the countries where these pirates originate or launch their ships.And then that aspect, I suppose, that is, again, one of the practical nature which I tendto lean towards is how do we help those countries, those source countries, build their owncapacity, whether it is increasing their own coast guard or naval capacity, whether it isimproving their legal structures, injecting a greater robust system. My colleague, Eimert,mentioned the Caribbean. That has a direct impact on certainly North America. The drug tradethat is coming in through the Caribbean through Haiti, for example, which has become athoroughfare for much of the drug trade in North America, and it is this very gray line betweenpolicing and military as to who is tasked with the enforcement. What's happening in Mexico isinteresting not necessarily limiting this just to the drug trade but there the military havebasically taken over the fight against narco?trafficking, not the police.THE HON. EIMERT VAN MIDDELKOOP: Can I add a few words to that? We are more orless successful in the Caribbean. But you have to realize that the result is that the drugtrafficking is not coming from North America, not through the Caribbean that's the rest ofAfrica. [INAUDIBLE] are very, very involved. So I think that in the near future we have to facenew problems in that part of the disconnected world of the federal states.Coming back to the fishing question. Well, it's a serious problem. But let us be honest itis never an excuse for piracy, of course. And, if so, they didn't [INAUDIBLE] but a very moderateincome, I suppose. The problem is the lack of the rule of law in Somalia.And the last question about coast guards, this one extra thing I did mention was that theAfrican Union and I think we have to support the African Union whatever we can in Africa beingmore responsible in a far more cheaper way that we can of building up societies in Africa.There is an [INAUDIBLE] an African Union mission supporting that mission, for example,supporting [INAUDIBLE] supporting the Army that is contributing to [INAUDIBLE] is also one ofthe means we can use to do something in a positive way in Somalia.MODERATOR: There is a gentleman here who has been very patient with me. Righthere if we can have a micro phone in the second row.AUDIENCE: [INAUDIBLE] I'm from Turkey. I have two brief questions. One is for AdmiralFitzgerald. Do you make any assessments? It seems now this piracy is limited around Africa.Do you make any assessments in NATO or somewhere else that there is a possible proliferationof this piracy to somewhere else in the world?My second question is for Minister MacKay. There was no mentioning of a possiblelinkage between terrorist networks and piracy. Is there one? Do we have any intelligence onthis and do you think the terrorist networks including al Qaeda and something else can usethese pirates as some kind of financial means to the activities or to harm western interests?MODERATOR: Thank you for that question. We haven't hit on that aspect of this issueyet, so if we can start with that.ADMIRAL MARK FITZGERALD: The piece on Africa, piracy is going to go where theconditions are right for piracy, weak or failed states, low income, poverty level, large mailpopulation under 25, those kinds of things. All of those conditions are in Africa and you haveseen this not just in Somalia, you have seen it in Niger Delta with the [INAUDIBLE]. I personallyam worried of seeing it move from the Niger Delta but south or north. You have a lot ofvulnerabilities as you go either direction to the energy security piece.I want to go back a little bit to another question but to answer yours is: what is ourconcern with piracy? Should we be worried about all piracy? And if so then we're going tohave to put a lot more assets at it. Or should we be worried about those things that concernour vital national interests? And I think, Minister, you talked about it. We have [INAUDIBLE] offthe Gulf of Aden. We are not seeing problems there. That's where all of our oil is going throughand the energy security that goes through there is vital to our national interests. We're pickingoff these smaller vessels out in the middle of the Indian Ocean that did not take theirresponsibility correctly and did not defend their vessels. Should we be responsible for that?So just to liven the pot up a little bit Africa is a problem, but right now could this goother places? Yes, it could if the conditions are right.MODERATOR: Do either of the ministers want to touch on the issue of terrorism?THE HON. PETER G. MACKAY: Sadly I find myself agreeing with the Admiral and withsome reluctance, again, at a risk of being alarmist. There is no question that an internationalterrorist network that wants to impact on a nation, we do know that the shipping lanes, thetraffic coming on the water has gone up exponentially and will continue to do so. The ships,themselves, that are carrying these containers are getting larger and more difficult, therefore,to monitor. I mean, the percentages of containers that are actually monitored at source letalone at the point of delivery is quite minuscule when you consider the sheer volume. PostPanamax and the new Super Panamax ships carry so much cargo now, to slip a box in there thatmay have a weapon or a biological weapon, I mean, it is awful to think about, but that's whatsecurity forces are tasked to do and to try to disrupt and prevent. Which is why, again, I comeback to the issue of sharing intelligence on this front between nations I think is a critical pieceof the prevention and the protection that we have to really task our ourselves to takeresponsibility for. But the short answer is yes this is a real risk given our vulnerability and thesheer volume of traffic on the water these days, that is a clear point of vulnerability thatterrorists could exploit.THE HON. EIMERT VAN MIDDELKOOP: I do agree completely with Peter MacKay hassaid in general because we have to face terrorism also by ships after September 11. We try tomake some arrangements to our ports. The more specific question was around Somalia. I thinkuntil today it is difficult to bring a link between terrorist groups or deactivest groups or even alQaeda with the term piracy so I am careful using that argument. It has its own process. Andthere are even some examples that people were brought to court in Somalia and got a longtime imprisonment because they had to face the Sharia because it was forbidden in the Shariaso but it can happen. Those states are vulnerable for groups and terrorist links. As far as Iknow I'm choosing today that argument.MODERATOR: If we could limit the questions to just one question per person becausewe are coming up to the top of the clock. Yes, sir, right here. You have been waiting for awhile. Thank you.AUDIENCE: Thank you. My name is Yukio Okamato. I run a [INAUDIBLE] in Japan. Japannow has a problem. We are now likely going to withdraw our fleet from the Indian Ocean as apart of OEF. Mostly for domestic reason unfortunately but there are some in Japan includingmyself who are pushing for the idea of directing these naval vessels to the Gulf of Aden to joinour escort ships doubling our anti piracy capacity there. And we would like to think that this isa form of international contribution to the security because we have passed a law enablingJapanese naval vessels to be able to protect merchant fleet of other nationalities. But there arealso seniors from international [INAUDIBLE] who this could never be a substitute for yourcontribution because in a role as a fight against terrorists you are dealing with more than justpeople. Whereas pirates are just for money and what you're going to do is simply to protectyour own economic interests. So my fundamental question is: Given the threat of piratesposing to the international community, is that always the right attitude to treat them as amoney versus money issue and regarding pirates as less than [INAUDIBLE] more amiable peoplethat terrorists?MODERATOR: Would you like to ?ADMIRAL MARK FITZGERALD: We greatly value the contribution of those oilers becauseit allows our ships to stay at sea longer and it shows Japan's commitment to a very largeinternational armada. Just make sure they have forced protection decks on board so we don'tend up getting one captured.In the bigger context of how we view pirates, the guys that are there are people who aredesperate. The pirates that we're catching are emaciated. They don't eat well. In fact, somewho have been as we pointed out brought to some of the European jails love life there becausethey get three squares a day. Some of the ones we capture on our ships and had to keep on theships have gained 20 or 30 kilos while they are there.So the bottom line is that these are desperate people. And the command and controlstructure that allows them to get to sea, so the money that gets to them, the middle men,those are the people that we want to get at. For every pirate we catch at sea there are athousand lined up at shore to go out and do this in Somalia.THE HON. PETER G. MACKAY: I think if you are the captain of a ship and you see a[INAUDIBLE] coming towards you with people with rocket launchers aboard you are not askingwhat their motives are, whether it is terrorism, political or otherwise, or whether they arecoming because they are desperate. Although I do agree that the majority of them aredesperate and they are former fishermen and they are being exploited perhaps by a largernetwork of criminals. I don't think that many of the pirates are doing this on their owninitiative. I think there is, quite frankly, some equivalent of organized crime behind them whichis why in the short term having that presence there, participating in NATO or EU patrols,protecting those shipping lanes and specifically protecting operators of vessels, there is noalternative. That presence is the only way to deter those attacks and in some cases it takes avery forceful intervention to prevent the takeover of a ship.And once the takeover of a ship has occurred then we're into a whole other realm ofdifficulties and challenges. Most Navy vessels including our own do have a directcommunication back to their country of origin for legal advice. Our Judge Advocate General isin regular communication with captains and commanders of vessels.MODERATOR: If we can move on here now. Sir, you have a question. It's on its way.AUDIENCE: I'm former naval person who many, many years ago spent a few of myearly days chasing unsuccessfully pirates in the Philippians. I have actually a broader questionabout the maritime domain. If you take a look at western navies they are all in numericaldecline. The navies that are growing are the Chinese and the Indians. If the Indians have their10 year building program, they will build more war ships than the United States and NATOcombined. Some years ago the U.S. Navy came up with the notion of maritime partnerships. Iwould not like to use the term coalition of the willing, but it was a genius idea to bring togethercivilian and military forces to exchange information. I'm wondering in a broader sense if youhad a chance to think through a framework in the future that could be building on to theIncidents at Sea Agreement that was signed in 1972 between the Soviet Union and UnitedStates Navy but something more broadly to establish maritime cooperation globally that takesinto account some of the enlarging navies that may have the capacity and the ability to supportin new areas of the world.MODERATOR: Minister van Middelkoop, why don't you start with that? You talkedabout some of the new alliances and partnerships that have been forming almost on an adhoc basis. Why dont you tackle this question?THE HON. EIMERT VAN MIDDELKOOP: I think as a result of part of my analysis I gavebefore the answer would have to be yes. We have to think those questions. I don't have theanswers. And I will not put it on the agenda of our conference. [INAUDIBLE] part of my analysisthat we need more maritime awareness. I don't think that all the navies are in decline. MyNavy is in the process of transformation from blue water to brown water. Maybe you willdefine it as a Navy in decline. I can understand that. But maybe as a result of you thinking ofthe new strategic challenge of NATO this specific challenge can be arranged in a new way.THE HON. PETER G. MACKAY: I would respond positively, as well. Partnerships in thisparticular area, most important, I think maritime awareness, domain awareness goes beyondjust naval vessels. Obviously Eimert mentioned earlier patrol vessels over water, sonar buoysand satellite also very useful in terms of maritime awareness and the port security itself. Likeothers, Canada's Navy is in need of refurbishment. We are intending and have a long termCanada first offense strategy that very much involves the Navy. This is our 100th anniversary ofthe Navy. That centennial is coming this year. I hear regularly from naval officers the thing thatthey want most is new ships and that very much goes to the ability to recruit and retain andbring the type of people that we need to increase that presence on the blue water andelsewhere.MODERATOR: Admiral.ADMIRAL MARK FITZGERALD: I think there is a lot more progress on this then we wouldsuspect. But I just came from the International Sea Power Symposium two weeks ago in NewPort where we had 110 maritime nations represented, 85 chiefs of Navy there. And theconsensus was that we have gotten better in the last two years by a significant amount. Wehave started a system called the Maritime Safety and Security Information System. Sixty plusnations all contribute their maritime picture to that which allows us to share data. And trustbecomes the most important factor here. What are you going to share and how will you shareit? And we're getting there. I won't tell you that we're anywhere close. I would also tell youthat when you count NATO's partners and NATO's contact countries you have over half thenations of the world. You have about 120 countries. That allows you to do a lot of this kind ofwork. And it's something that we're building on and trying to expand.So while I wouldn't call it in the crawl, walk, run, we are not at the run but we are in thewalk phase.MODERATOR: Just a few minutes left and several hands. The woman here in the frontrow. Microphone coming. Thanks for being so patient. We'll try to get through as manyquestions as we can in the remaining minutes.AUDIENCE: [INAUDIBLE] U.S. Center for Naval Analysis and Former Deputy underSecretary of Defense. Thank you, Minister, for convening this excellent conference. Climatechange is a threat multiplier for instability in fragile regions of the world and is likely in futureyears to exacerbate some of the challenges we have talked about today as populations becomemore desperate from scarcity of water, food, extreme weather events, sea level rise andrelated problems. Do you see, Admiral, the need for increased capability to respond tohumanitarian assistance in disaster relief situations and what types of capability? And defenseministers, do you see any opportunity to increase maritime partnerships in the furtherance ofadaptive capacity that will be needed to begin to prevent some of the challenges faced byclimate change in the future?MODERATOR: Thank you for that question.ADMIRAL MARK FITZGERALD: I can start out real quick by saying on both the U.S. andthe NATO side I think we are positioning ourselves that way. The NATO response force whichwas 25,000 air men, sailors and soldiers are the real thrust of that whole organization on call isto be able to respond to an imminent catastrophe around the world. Certainly we arepositioning ourselves that way. And then the Navy is kind of one of those missions that'salways there. Will it increase over time? Very possibly. Within 8 percent of the world'spopulations within 200 or 100 miles, one of those numbers but it is very close to the coast andwe're going to have to be ready to do that.THE HON. PETER G. MACKAY: I would just say quickly yes and yes we very much viewour Navy and our increased capacity as the ability to do and deliver more and they are literallyand figuratively the delivery agent for compassionate humanitarian aide, disaster relief. Wateris certainly an issue that we understand very clearly is one of the necessities of life that have tobe addressed first. In places like Bangladesh we have seen areas where clean drinking waterwas the number one issue that had to be addressed. We had something called The DisasterRelief Team. Deploying that quickly is a critical enabler for humanitarian relief. And we haveseen the Canadian Navy participate in hurricane relief in places like Jamaica. By all means this isvery much into the plan for the future. And if there is one thing I know about the military isthey are constantly making plans and looking at contingency arrangements but they need theequipment to get it there.THE HON. EIMERT VAN MIDDELKOOP: Very briefly, there is, of course, not a direct linkbetween the climate change and security problems. It can be, but not always. And if so as theAdmiral already said one of the frustrations of us is that we [INAUDIBLE] cannot never[INAUDIBLE] but one or two times we did and it was in New Orleans with the Katrina. And inmy view the capacities we have now are capable to address those consequences. Maybe therewill be new challenges because we don't know where problems of climate change will end. Inmy view it will take centuries but I think that is the answer for today. So I don't see a veryserious [INAUDIBLE] for new capabilities.MODERATOR: I'm told we have time for one more brief question. I have had my backto this side for far too long. Sir, right here.AUDIENCE: My name is Earl [INAUDIBLE] from American [INAUDIBLE] and we operatesome of those large container ships. I would first like to thank the coalition forces for theprotection we do receive and they do a Herculean job. It took a while to get that going butwe're quite satisfied. So I guess if I were a pirate, hypothetically speaking, I see little risk ingoing out there. Not to say there isnt any risk, but generally speaking I'm on a catch andrelease program. I'm going to get caught. You're going to send me to shore. You might takemy weapons but I can buy more weapons. And the possibility of receiving [INAUDIBLE] is prettyhigh. From a stowaway and you catch me going up the gangway in a country who refuses torecognize me as a stowaway I'm stuck on a merchant ship for a long time until that merchantship can talk another sovereign nation to taking custody of me as a stowaway. So my wife is aprincipal. She tells me without consequences it's hopeless. So I think part of the issue and partof the challenge in addition to everything you talked about is a lack of international regime thatdishes out consequences. I appreciate your comments.THE HON. PETER G. MACKAY: I agree. I think we do have to have consequences. Justlike speeding down the highway and seeing a police car set up with a speed trap on the side ofthe road might force you to slow down but as soon as you get by him you're going to hit theaccelerator again. There has to be consequences and the stakes are very, very high. In the lawthere is general and specific deterrents. There is the message that it sends to the individual butif this catch and release scenario continues we can expect that piracy will continue, if notproliferate further.So I think the international community now and I'm glad to know that there is a lot ofeffort being put forward by many groups. We still have to convene, I believe, an internationalforum and hone in on the solutions. We've had some great discussion here today but very fewconcrete solutions as far as how we address piracy.THE HON. EIMERT VAN MIDDELKOOP: I don't agree with you. It is a risky question. Ithink you have the proper mindset for becoming a pirate so be careful with those type ofquestions. It is a crime. Like crimes here in, of course, not in Halifax, but in other cities of theworld. And there is no guarantee, not on land, not at sea that we could deter all crimes. But inthe Gulf of Aden we have given the last year almost 100 percent guarantee, thank God, to deterpirates. Your ships and all of your colleagues pass that corridor. In my view that is acompliment for all the commanders of all the ships. I think we have found a solution, a specificsolution or some solution by [INAUDIBLE] to solve that problem more or less.Of course, we realize that there is a proliferation but from the point of view ofprotecting real commercial interests and your interests I think we are doing a lot of good work.MODERATOR: Commander gets the last word.ADMIRAL MARK FITZGERALD: Whether it is a little risk or a lot of risk if you're desperateyou're going to take that risk. And so while your assessments are probably pretty closewhether that pirate thinks that he's got a 50/50 chance of success or probably doesn't go intothe equation because he knows that he probably doesn't have a future on shore. That's whatwe have to get after. How do we fix the problem on shore?MODERATOR: I think that brings our discussion, fascinating and interesting discussionto an end. Thank you to the audience for all our excellent questions. My apologies foranyone I overlooked or didnt get to quickly enough. And thank you to our excellentpanelists, Ministers MacKay and van Middelkoop and Commander Fitzgerald. Thanks verymuch.MR. CRAIG KENNEDY: And thank you. Thank you very much.