if everyone who is from SoCal stays in SoCal then SoCal would be the toughest,..but we lose a bunch of our top players to the USTA and they go train in Florida year-round and this makes our section weak...

I think it's the depth of players not just the few who are blue chippers that make a section tough.

I am often surprised when juniors move from our section (Texas) where they were ranked in the 40 -50's and they show as being in the top 10 in their new section and sometimes #1 in the state that they move too.

Probably should be a new thread but how is every section set up to track/manage juniors? In Texas there are 3 levels, ZATs, Champs and Super Champs. To move onto each level you have to accumulate points from the best of 3-4 tournaments (# of tournaments depends on level) on a rolling calendar year. So for B12's there are around 584 ranked players in all three divisions. Boys 16's has close to 1200 ranked players.

One kid is listed as #1 Oregon but is in the 60's (after playing a year here) in TX.

16 zonals is wrapping up in Texas and 2 TX teams will be playing for the championship. The order of the first 5 finishers is 3 Texas teams, 1 of the Eastern teams, the 4th Tx team. Texas and Eastern sent 4 teams, Pacific Northwest 2 and Northern 2.

Of note was the how dominating the TX teams were in doubles.

I would agree with Florida and the California sections being 1, 2, 3 but would put Texas after that.

I have heard from college coaches that they also list the sections in that order.

16 zonals is wrapping up in Texas and 2 TX teams will be playing for the championship. The order of the first 5 finishers is 3 Texas teams, 1 of the Eastern teams, the 4th Tx team. Texas and Eastern sent 4 teams, Pacific Northwest 2 and Northern 2.

Of note was the how dominating the TX teams were in doubles.

I would agree with Florida and the California sections being 1, 2, 3 but would put Texas after that.

I have heard from college coaches that they also list the sections in that order.

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Your Zonals example is not a good one - check the local ranking of the Eastern girls who are playing there. I believe they could not even find 24 girls and are using local substitutes. Not many players who qualified for Supernats will also fly across the country to play at 120F heat in Waco, TX.

And 1/2 the TX girls were 13 and only 3 of the boys were in the top 20 of the section. This is my point exactly about depth.

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The hosting state at Zonals should have the inside track. But Zonals doesn't draw all the best players so it's not an accurate indicator of what section is the best. The reason Zonals doesn't draw include:

There are still a lot of high rank players there from every section that participated. Eastern and Texas are probably at a disadvantage just because they both field 4 teams.

Of note - the official said they were on the court more at this zonals than and other. Mostly because of a few Eastern players who didn't seem to know that balls on or near a line inside of the courts were still good balls.

Probably the team that surprised us the most was the Pacific Northwest. Horrible doubles but all but 2 single matches were tight.

They should.....but not the case in both years my kid played. (local section got killed)

But Zonals doesn't draw all the best players so it's not an accurate indicator of what section is the best.

Maybe not the best couple of kids....but many of the 5-25 play which (as the other poster mentioned) & since (say) 15 of the best 18 boys or girls are playing, then the results of these matches would indicate the depth.....or lack of depth of the various sections.

The reason Zonals doesn't draw just about everyone include:

1. Time commitment. Agree. It's another week long commitment in the summer.

2. Expense (hotel, travel, food). Agree.

3. No impact on rankings. In my observation....Not accurate. My kid earned the same number of points at Zonals that he did in winning the L3 Regional tournament.

(maybe if you're top 10 in the nation, 300 points wouldn't help a kids record, but line 1 or line 2 kids who win all or most of their singles matches earn serious national points).

4. Too close to hard courts. Very much agree. In fact it's a couple of days after the CLAYS & exactly one week prior to the hard courts. Few kids are able to do all three of these events. I wish they'd move one to late June.

Agree completely. Just got home from 14 Zonals in Cary. Great experience for the kids including lots of good matches including one to three three set matches everyday. Leaving in four days for Hard Courts and didn't do Clay Courts because of the time commitment and added cost - as a working parent couldn't take three weeks off in a span of six weeks. The team atmosphere was wonderful for the kids - to see the boys pulling for the girls and the girls pulling for the boys was great but wish it was at a different time of year - the tournament calendar is so full from the end of June through early August - moving the Zonals to third week in August and moving Hard Courts up a week would be my suggestion.

Agree completely. Just got home from 14 Zonals in Cary. Great experience for the kids including lots of good matches including one to three three set matches everyday. Leaving in four days for Hard Courts and didn't do Clay Courts because of the time commitment and added cost - as a working parent couldn't take three weeks off in a span of six weeks. The team atmosphere was wonderful for the kids - to see the boys pulling for the girls and the girls pulling for the boys was great but wish it was at a different time of year - the tournament calendar is so full from the end of June through early August - moving the Zonals to third week in August and moving Hard Courts up a week would be my suggestion.

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What amazes me is the vastly different experiences at tournaments. Compare your post to the very last post in the "Emira Stanford" thread below.

One person went to a tournament and said they had the best experience with a great atmosphere. Another went to a tournament that sounds like junior tennis purgatory.

Thanks did read the post - our group of kids that had a great time are all good sports - one of the team won the Boys Sportsmanship award.

However there are some crazy kids and parents at all tournament. One of our players got a retaliation call on match point - ball was at least two feet in - player that was losing hadn't liked a close call two points before questioned the call but then called the match point ball out to make the score duece but to make things worse when he called the ball out walked off the court, crossed over a court where two girls were playing their match, walked out into the crowd about 50 feet to find a ref and then having found the wrong ref (not overseeing his court) had the ref call for another ref all while the game was still in progress. Parents sitting right there encouraging him. Match went to third set and that player lost with a double fault on match points.

Point of the story is that there are clearly parts of the country where the parents/coaches teach and encourage poor sportsmanship as a part of the game.

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Point of the story is that there are clearly parts of the country where the parents/coaches teach and encourage poor sportsmanship as a part of the game.

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Yea, parents and tennis coaches are blatantly encouraging and teaching poor sportsmanship. It's so clear I can't believe the USTA is allowing it.

All parents who see their kids make even one close call and who hear or see their kids act out in anyway should pull them off the court in every instance. I can see the lines of a players court from the sideline much better than the players can from the actual court they are playing on. All kids except mine act out and make bad calls. It's just awful out there on the junior tennis circuit. I'm thinking about going to an activity like painting or water ballet.

No, but the USTA has a responsibility to promote fair play for all it's participants. That's one of the primary things a sports governing body is supposed to do.

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It is nice to come on this board, and learn that everyone is frustrated by:
the lack of refs at the tournament,
or the lack of competency of the refs,
or the refs that are too busy talking to each other,
or the refs that are eating lunch,
or the refs that are on the court, but say, "Sorry, I wasn't watching".
or the kids cursing, throwing their racquets, cheating, parents coaching, etc.

Folks, you have to document it.

Eventually, the sectional and national office do have a stack of complaints on kid x....

We had one kid from our section at zonals who cheated every match.
The parents from other sectionals were upset and said they would be putting it in writing....

The hosting state at Zonals should have the inside track. But Zonals doesn't draw all the best players so it's not an accurate indicator of what section is the best. The reason Zonals doesn't draw include:

No, but the USTA has a responsibility to promote fair play for all it's participants. That's one of the primary things a sports governing body is supposed to do.

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I don't think putting an official on every court is the answer. And, I don't think it's a problem of that magnitude. If there is a problem, file a grievance. Encourage other parents to do the same. Put the hooks on notice. I have done it with positive support from our section.

LOL, and I'm sure your player was an angel in that whole mess right, Mom?

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If she's talking about the same zonals that I was at, there was one team from a section that had 5-6 players call for referees or accuse the opponent of cheating within the first 2-3 games of the first set 3 days in a row. I saw this one kid forget the game score when the court next to there's was arguing for about 15 minutes and the official was trying to settle a dispute on whether a point was game point for one kid or deuce. (ended up playing the entire game over) with the kid that "forgot" the score losing.... again.

I don't think it's the area of the country, I think it was one or two of the top players or leaders on the team being enabled by a coach and parents that read Brad Gilbert's little book about Winning Ugly that fosters the idea, "if you're not cheating, you're not trying" mentality. I like the idea of the zonal tournaments because of the high number of matches that the kids can play with kids from different areas of the country. Naples and Alabama in the past were great, but for some reason it got ugly early and never improved. Oh well, karma is a nasty thing and gamesmanship is not going to elevate anyone's skill set.

I don't think putting an official on every court is the answer. And, I don't think it's a problem of that magnitude. If there is a problem, file a grievance. Encourage other parents to do the same. Put the hooks on notice. I have done it with positive support from our section.

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I agree on reporting and putting cheaters on notice. Not sure a ref on every court is even possible, but it would certainly help. Every other sport has refs and I've seen kids and parents get ejected from little league games for bad behavior, swearing, etc. Tourney fees keep going up and it stinks to get hooked right out of one. I've seen it happen, but not had it happen to my kids yet.

I don't think it's the area of the country, I think it was one or two of the top players or leaders on the team being enabled by a coach and parents that read Brad Gilbert's little book about Winning Ugly that fosters the idea, "if you're not cheating, you're not trying" mentality.

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I've read Gilbert's "little book" multiple times. Pray tell where in his book it encourages cheating?

Brad Gilbert's book is not like that at all. It does go into gamesmanship such as a club player who warms up early, then pretends to show up late to a match and not have time to warm up. Gamesmanship like that, and Brad is careful to say even that is a little skeevy. He NEVER advocates cheating at all. In fact just the opposite.

Winning Ugly is about knowing which games mean more in a set and match. When to go for it, when to play defense. When to drop shot, when to use angles. He does advocate taking extra time if you are struggling to try and throw an opponent off who is rolling....but he mentions it must be done within the rules.

He also tells about the garbage Connors and Mac got away with back in the day. He says it worked for them but he also says the tournament organizers did it to keep big money guys happy. He talks about it matter of factly, not as an advocate.

Erman seriously misunderstood the book. The main point he makes over and over is that many tennis players have no clue about little things such as which games mean more, when to use legal gamesmanship, etc. He tells how many players don't even attempt to scout opponenents by asking around about their styles.

I've read Gilbert's "little book" multiple times. Pray tell where in his book it encourages cheating?

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Exactly, it doesn't. He totally misrepresented or misunderstood the book. The only times he mentions illegal stuff is in a matter of fact way to let people know what some players do so they can be prepared.

He NEVER advocated cheating. He advocates being prepared, scouting, knowing when to use certain shots, which games mean the most in the course of a match, when to slow things down a tad within the rules to get some rest.....he teaches players to use their brains a little.