Chuck's just an old fart. He thinks the upcoming Civil War is going
to be like a "Road Warrior" set. He lacks the education and mindset
to see that if there were real fighting, the techno-geeks with their
biologicals, bombs, and computer knowledge, not to mention the
lawyers, will be the ones on the front lines.

Some disinfranchized white males who don't have degrees in
engineering or the hard sciences seem to be enamoured with Mad Max
scenarios occurring the near future. Don't ask me why.

your goobernment and reinstituting the Constitution? You KNOW this
means an armed action.

I would like to share the closing paragraphs of a book I just
finished by one of my more favored authors. Book is a re-prise of the
Odyssey, set in his trademark universe. Author was part of one of the
more unique Armor units on VietNam.

His closing:

Quote:

--------------------------------------------------

The use of force is always an answer to problems. Whether or not it's
a satisfactory answer depends on a number of things, not least the
personality of the person making the determination.

Force isn't an attractive answer, though. I would not be true to
myself or to the peole I served with in 1970 if I did not make that
realization clear.

David Drake

--------------------------------------------------

As we ALL look at the continuing "situation" (don't want to get a
flame) in FLA, and as we look around and listen and hear people
getting more and more upset. With more and more people talking about
it being "time" and them being almost ready to "do SOMETHING", and as
we see the gathering clouds which harken the whirlwind, we NEED to
consider what we are contemplating.

You NEED to strip out the glamour (spilled guts ain't pretty), the
sexxy attractiveness (rebels don't get wonderful, chick-magnet
uniforms) and consider exactly what we are talking about.

We are NOT talking about a bunch o' guys out camping with their guns,
going off to do a little shooting but at live targets.

We ARE talking about skulking house to house to wherever the target
is, doing our dirty work and going somewhere and hunkering down in an
unheated abandoned factory or warehouse, and going out and sortieing
for food and water. Getting clean at irregular intervals (measured in
terms of DAYS or WEEKS not hours), eating a hot meal once or twice a
week as time, and other Patriot contact permits.

We are talking about not trusting ANYONE, even the guy right next to
you in the action. We are talking about living a life that denies the
existence of the sun because we sure won't see it or enjoy it. We are
talikng about not being real sure when the next time we would be able
to get warm might be, or when we'd get a full 6 hours of sleep
uninterupted by the fear that we'd been found.

not knowing when we will get a pair of clean socks and shorts...

We're talking about being thankful for 40 degrees and rain as it
would keep the goons in so we could do whatever we needed to do.

We're talking about leaving a friend behind with a gut wound because
he would just slow you down, or "giving him grace" with a round to
the back of the head.

We are talking about not trusting your spouse, child or parent,
unless they were dead.

I can't paint this dark enough.

DAMN IT I DO NOT WANT TO GO THIS ROUTE!!!!!

DAMN IT I UNDERSTAND THE REALITIES AND I HAVEN'T HAD THE "PLEASURE"
OF BEING THERE!!!!

THE ABOVE IS LOOKING ON THE BRIGHT SIDE!!!!!!!

F*CK PEOPLE LOOK AT WHERE YOU ARE HEADED!!!!!!

WHY in God's name are they forcing us to look over this particular
edge of the Abyss??? Why are they pushing something they can not HOPE
to win???

I agree with Z. Chuck posted of the horrific consequences of going
down the road he's seen, but he's ALSO blaming someone for FORCING
folks to go down this road. I read the entire thread, and Chuck is
NOT discouraging militant action. He's simply pointing out what he
felt others had not previously considered.

Discussions of this kind remind me of the discussions on TB2000 last
year. A small group of people band together by design because they
share the same beliefs. People with beliefs outside the acceptable
belief system are discouraged from engaging, or outright banned from
engaging. The result is a closed system, wherein the group within
cite reports from others who share the belief system, confirming in
their minds that their belief system is true, and leading them to
believe that their belief system is commonplace.

I haven't seen Cin post to this thread, so I'm thinking you thought
my comments were from her. I raised this question once before, and
someone called something like Freaky Patriot raised them
again...WHO exactly is the enemy here? Will they knock off
anyone/everyone who has a Gore lawn sign? Will they randomly kill
anyone who doesn't believe as they? WHO is the enemy here? There IS
none. Their logic is Quixotic.

You may be wrong. I remember a group of so-called
environmentalists who were arrested for planning to blow up
windmills on a power farm in CA [these things are murder on
migrating birds]. This was I while ago but I will try to find a
reference. Probably won't succeed.

People with beliefs outside the acceptable belief system are
discouraged from engaging, or outright banned from engaging. The
result is a closed system, wherein the group within cite reports from
others who share the belief system, confirming in their minds that
their belief system is true, and leading them to believe that their
belief system is commonplace.

If I didn't know better, Anita, I could easily imagine your comment
being about the Republican and Democratic parties and their beliefs
at this time...

I finished my (sometimes) annual trip to the Heart of the Mohawk
Valley to see my family yesterday with the (typical) trek through the
snow around Rochester, Buffalo, and Silver Creek. Driving through
that snow while my wife slept, and riding while she drove, I had a
LOT of time to think. This, for me tends to be dangerous.

I now have several more reasons to pray for a BITR. My 4 year old
nephew enters the hospital Wednesday, when his family gets back to
Naraganset from mom's house. He will be there for about 3 weeks in
traction. At the end of this time the Orthopods will re-evaluate his
hip and decide on surgery to repair a shallow to the point of flat
acetabulum and possibly to repair a femoral head which is not exactly
round.

He is then scheduled (with or without surgery) for about 3 months of
body cast to allow the hip to grow/develop into a normal hip. The
situation is called Perthes, or Congenital Hip. I had the same
condition, but in 1953, they put you in traction for 6 months in the
hospital while your hip grew in correctly.

CLEARLY I am praying for a BITR.

My grandmother-in-law, where we stop on the way home (devoirs, if you
knew Aggie you'd understand how tough that devoir is), parted with us
by asking about stocking water etc. IMPOSSIBLE for her to have done
any real prepping where she is and impossible for us to help her for
so MANY reasons. When the biggest DGI you know can become concerned
by the front page article in the Buffalo paper, you KNOW the "herd"
is about to move....

CLEARLY I am praying for a BITR.

My mom, who is a wonderful lady, has MAYBE a few days worth of food
in the house, a fireplace insert she almost totally refuses to use
because she can't breathe as it gets hot in the living room. She is
on a series of meds that are pretty much required for her to maintain
a quality of life that is comfortable. From Cleveland I can't do
squat for her.

CLEARLY I am praying for a BITR.

My brother is looking at a job change, to a little company that
appears to want him to build a Solutions Group to go with their
Hardware/Software products, before they IPO. This change could be how
I get back into IT, as I talked with him about exactly that and he
indicated he'd be interested in my (somewhat rusty) talents.

CLEARLY I am praying for a BITR.

SO before you all acuse those of us who are able to see a possibility
of uglyness, of DESIRING this uglyness, stop and reconsider. We each
have families. We each have relatives that we KNOW may be impacted if
the promised BITR turns into a Will-o-the-wisp. Most of us,
regardless of the rhetoric, are FRANTICALLY praying for a BITR. Many
of us have very intense, personal reasons for this prayer.

LOL, don't try to give us that crap that you have a high IQ, you're a
fucking retard! You sit on your fat ass all day supervising a looney
bin and talking about how you want to start a revolution with all your
redneck friends and toy guns. Sheesh, get a life, loser.

Basically I like Chuck,after rollover he stood up and was counted among
us that were wrong,very graciously,I admired that and he was true to
his persona.

But when the split happened,and along with it,the uproar of
censorship,I fully expected Chuck to migrate with us here. But that
never happened,and I'm still perplexed .I thought the *1* dude that had
a sense of fairness and the American Way wouldn't stand for that
bullshit,boy was I wrong.

After reading the "manifesto of 3 strikes and your out",that he
apparently had some say in,I WAS FLOORED!.

Chuck now had become everything he had espoused to stand against,and
was the antithesis of justice and fair play.

YOU may think Chuck is a "thinker", but methinks he is an idiot. He
rarely exhibits any true intellect, and mostly just spews aggressive
pseudo-patriotic blowhard tough-guy crap which originates from his own
paranoid insecurities.

Increasingly I find myself in agreement with capnfun. I am sure
this is as much a concern to he as me... ;)

I am no psychologist, but in my opinion Chuck either had the
ability to appear a stable and free thinker most of the time, or he
actually was a stable and free thinker who digressed
horribly.

He opposed the fascism of the Hysterium - or appeared to oppose
it - when initially handed the keys. But, though not solely, he is
most responsible for the unashamed fascism and censorship that
occurred at the Hysterium about one year ago. His "new sheriff in
town" post started the entire decline of the place. And he appears to
be acting in similar fashion (fascion?) at the new and improved
Hysterium.

One may ask: What has changed in a year? Indeed.

Personally, I exchanged email with Chuck. My impression at the
time was of a person of integrity.

Now I mourn.

For either I was duped by yet another petty dictator cowering
beneath Y2k fears and generated reports and horribly misinterpretted
half-to-zero - truths while in search of mental salve; or a truly
noble person has succumbed to the memetic maladies of those who
befriended him - the Ed Yourdons of the world.

I agree with Capn and AR. Chuck spoke out on TB2000 and I respected
his willingness to swim against the red tide of censorship and
personal attacks (sounds melodramatic, don't it?) more so because he
was writing from within the belly of the beast, so to speak.

I wish those folks over there a happy Thanksgiving. Eat, drink, smile
and love. And don't forget to exclaim a healthy dose of gratitude for
the blessings bestowed upon us, for they are many.

Although I don't post here very often, I'm still a lurker. I find
many of the familiar "forum names" still sharing their insights and
wisdom, thats why I continue to lurk.

But, for the truth to be told, I do lurk and post at TB2000 on a
regular basis. I would hate to thing that would make me an enemy
here. Strictly a choice is all. We all have to find our confort
levels and apparently I have.

Now as for Chuck and your concern for his loss of principals, I see
it a little differenty, since that board is moderated, many decisions
are not arbitrary, pretty much requires a concensus of opinion.
Personally, I feel Chuck took a stand in what he beleived was the
best interest of not having the board self-destruct. The majority of
us have all experienced that now, haven't we?

I think his, and other moderators, heavy handedness during that time
of turmoil made the end product better. JMHO

May everyone have a great "Happy Thanksgiving" and enjoy what makes
you happy.

We all have our moments; even you; even Chuck. It's really horrible
the way you are all dissecting him like this. I think Chuck was and
still is a good guy. To publicly stone someone who you once
considered to be your friend simply because you think they have made
a mistake is SHIT. Fair-weather friends you are.

For those who are so opposed to censorship and the rule of the
Bourgoise, I am amazed that you could stoop this low.

For those who are so opposed to censorship and the rule of the
Bourgoise, I am amazed that you could stoop this low.

I don't see how one relates to the other. Nobody is censoring
Chuck, they're simply expressing their opinions about him.

Whatever you may think about him, the fact remains that it was
his "I HAVE RETURNED" thread that began the
global deletions, which led to the spamming, which led to the
forum split and the new forum that we have here now. Not long
after he posted his now-famous thread, a concerned forum
member posted a plea for a truce to end the flame wars. As
you can see from the thread, Chuck's response was to ". . .plead
3 am and go hide." Make of that what you will.

Just for the record,I'm not throwin' stones or being a fair weather
friend.I am merely making an observation on the devolution of an online
persona.

If you EVER see me turn my back on the principles I proclaim,stomp on
the foundation of integrity I espouse so dearly or deny by my actions
or speech that which I so clearly state you have my full permission to
not only throw stones at me but to PLEASE hit me up side the head with
the biggest rock you can find,in hopes that it will jar me back to
reality.

And if my backyard is cluttered,just give me a holler I'll fix it,cause
I hate a trashy neighborhood too.

Anita- Trying to reason with the clan on EZboard is like trying to
eat soup with a fork.

Re your request for clarification from chuck- Perhaps this quote from
him (which was written earlier in that thread) will shed some light
on where his head's at...

While I am one of the small-time, less inflamatory folks
(absolutely TAME compared to, fer instance Zog) that is what makes me
a good target fer the JBT's. In Cyber-Space I am a voice of reasoned
objections, much harder to dismiss than some who inhabit the REAL
fringe, and thus, far more dangerous.

Some day I'll vanish from the board. Your priv messages or e-mails
won't get answered. The AOL-IM might be answered but the answers will
be by someone who can type. the same will be true of mIRC.

THAT will be your clue that things have gone WAY past time to act.

I fully expect to serve as a trip-wire to this community.

(I can only assume, Anita, that if you don't get a personal response
from "Mr Trip-wire", he has more than likely been abducted by those
omnipresent Jack Booted Thugs.)