In the continuing absence of any interesting current Scottish politics, we thought you might enjoy this Sunday Mail piece from exactly 11 years ago yesterday, confidently asserting that a quick chat would disabuse Scots of any notion of leaving the UK.

(Click the pic to enlarge.)

The editorial leader followed on from a page 2 piece claiming that only 31% of voters favoured “separation”, and suggesting that rejecting it would lead to the devolution of broadcasting, pensions and immigration – the latter of which, alert readers may recall, was still being emptily dangled by the UK government just before the EU referendum.

(More interestingly, in 2007 both the Tories and the Lib Dems focused on dismissing the idea of independence on the grounds that there was a clear majority against it in the Scottish Parliament, a rule which they appear to no longer set quite such store by.)

“The corpse of independence” seems remarkably reluctant to be buried so far. But we look forward to reading the exact same articles in another 11 years’ time (probably under a headline about an “intervention” from Gordon Brown promising “home rule” again), unless we do something about it.

113 to “The corpse of independence”

Eleven years later… still no control over broadcasting or immigration and as a point of fact those parties fought tooth and nail to deny the Scottish parliament those powers. Also? That whole UK being a poorer place without… thing. Wonder if the same author is today thinking life comes at you fast?

One other thing the original author should mibbies consider.

The principle of independence, (even interdependence), self government, self determination, isn’t a corpse. You give up on that? You give on the right to choose. You give up on the right to think for yourself. You may as well give up on life really.

Timely reminder of what was and to some extent what still is from a Yoon point of view
We now have vast majority of people in Scotland politically aware and not taken in.
So I dont think Broon will be aroon tae get anither go at Better together, cause we will be Independent.

You could probably paper your living room with articles promising “Vote NO and we’ll give you a better deal”.

Since we’re still waiting for broadcasting, immigration, energy and pensions to be devolved, and anticipating agriculture and fishing and environmental protection to be re-reserved, we can just imaginge the tsunami of promises coming our way in another referendum.

It has to be said, in those long distant days of youthful naivety, no one could have for seen the rise of the far right in England to the extent where it has moved from the fringes to being mainstream. Nor predicted the astonishly stupid idea of Brexit, never mind its post referendum handling by the most inept government since … well, since never before perhaps.

Eleven years ago, who could have imagined Scotland being chauffeur driven by the Tories to independence? Nor, for that matter, a time when many Six County Unionists are openly thinking they would be better off out of the UK and in a United Ireland.

I never yet got my head round politicians who actively worked against improving the lot of Scots – Iain Smith, Cathy Jamieson, ‘a Tory spokesman’. And I still don’t. It’s like they have a completely different reality, one where Scotland prospers more without independence than with it.

Interesting reading these articles and noting the ‘negative’ words associated with independence thus highlighting to the unenlightened a constant subliminal message with the connotation being independence is bad for Scotland….however to the enlightened these ‘negative’ words stand out in neon and are obvious in their usage.

This is what we are up against…a media who are reaching out to the uninformed and politically disengaged voters knowing full well how easy it is to manipulate those who take no active interest in seeking information from alternate sources and rely on the MSM for all of their news and information .

The media are the official spokespersons for whatever political party they support and because most…nearly all….support Unionist parties then they also endorse the Unionist message with gusto.Unbelievably there are still people who believe the press are honest and……non-partisan and report objectively.

Like many on this site the only ‘corpse’ I want to see buried is this pretend union. Best we ‘leave’ this non UKOK Union and allow the others in UKOK to get what they so desperately want, that is to ‘leave’ the EU.

It sickens me that Unionist political parties promote the message majority of Scots do not want independence and yet are so very reluctant to highlight the message that majority of Scots do not want to leave the EU. Reason ? Their UKOK or rather the majority of England voted to leave EU.

You see they do not want to promote that they recognise or distinguish any difference between separate parts of UKOK because they would then have to recognise and distinguish how different we all are in the separate parts of UKOK….and that does not fit their message of Scotland remaining and being a part of a ‘United’ Kingdom.

There is no doubt in my mind that, we, i.e. Scotland, are now and will still be post Brexit, treated as the eternal Bridesmaids to England’s Bride….and it is with deliberate intention that the media fail to promote this and instead promote the lie that Scotland is somehow safer, wealthier, respected , recognised , listened to,supported and a valued partner ? Region ? part ? of UKOK.

The real question is when push comes to shove will enough Scots say…Enough is Enough with the lies and false promises better separate than together in a Post Brexit UKnotOK.

If there is one thing everyone in Scotland should take away from this and the “promises” made by the Three Amigos party in 2014 and 2016 is … do not believe a word that is ever said by any member of the Three Amigos Party … they are nothing more than a bunch of greed driven self important LIARS!

In the last week we have heard that WM is going to follow Scotland and reduce the age for bowel cancer screening to 50 and that it is being proposed to again follow Scotland and adopt the much maligned Baby Boxes.

These are just 2 instances of the many Scottish Government initiatives which our backward WM lot have adopted.

It is time that we started shouting this from the rooftops and an article listing said measures should be produced.It is unlikely that the msm would carry it but carrying it on social media and leaflets would help to get the message through that Scotland can do better than that lot at WM.

Furthermore, on the subject of Brexit why are we not campaigning on the threat to our European Citizenship.

There is perfidious Albion right there. Before the “normally” word took over.
Also a reminder to us there is no Unionist parties that would ever support real Scottish democracy. The writing is on the wall for them.

On a different note, I came across an article the other day, where the Orange order said they would leave Scotland if Indy happens.
That should also go on our leaflets,a sure winner for us.

So they have tried belittling us, they’ve tried threatening us, frightening us, telling us they love us, telling us we are genetically incapable of self-governance and telling us we are, when all is said and done, equally British.

Far as I can see they have nothing left to use – with one great big glaring exception – Tanks, helicopters, fighter planes, drones, bombers and hand to hand fighting in the streets.

I came across an article once that said that the oo would “not allow” an independent Scotland.

Clapper57 said

“This is what we are up against…a media who are reaching out to the uninformed and politically disengaged voters knowing full well how easy it is to manipulate those who take no active interest in seeking information from alternate sources and rely on the MSM for all of their news and information.”

Great comment overall. Put me in mind of this –

“There are only some people who can be fooled all of the time. That’s who we need to focus on.”
George W. Bush

British nationalists and their toxic corrupt media have only to hold their line and they may well scrape through again next time and if that happens it’s all over for Scotland. Those who think we can just keep coming back again and again are deluding themselves, another no vote and one of the first things that will happen is that campaigning for Scottish independence will become illegal and they’ll make sure that it carries heavy penalties.

If you want to help prevent the premature death of Scotland then help this fundraiser

It started off well but is now sputtering, perhaps a victim of the ennui and apathy that the Yes “movement” – which as far as I can see so far isn’t moving much of anything anywhere – seems to be prey to.

We shouldn’t need a “date” to start campaigning we should just be out there switching minds to Yes on the basis of the facts supporting the case for indy, even if no brexit had ever come on the horizon. However the announcement of a date for a referendum or an election with the SNP on an independence ticket would of course concentrate minds wonderfully.

So these Britnats must have gotten a real shock in the run up to the 2014 independence referendum, they had to pull out all the stops, in a panic, last minute.

By god they must have had some major help to get their ‘vow’ out last minute, and to get their faux ‘love you’ lies, from all sorts of insignificant people out there.

I notice that article says ‘the UK would be a poorer place without Scotland’. There in lies the problem, the REST of ‘UK’ could continue to call themselves whatever they like, after Scotland votes for Independence, and of course the ‘poorer’ bit is the crux of the matter. When it says, ‘place’ note they don’t say countries, or nations of. No the UK is a ‘place’.

Another problem, the indoctrination of the people right across the ‘UK’ in thinking it is a ‘country’ is deliberate.

If Scotland was a ‘subsidy junkie, living off the backs of the English, the London controlled UKgovernment would ditch Scotland in a flash, that must be the most ignored fact right across their ‘UK’, except of course within the halls of power! They know full well that Scotland is not subsidised but in fact subsidises the REST of the UK.

Why is their no equivalent to GERS for the rUK? I think we all know the asnwer to that, we need to make sure more people know that every single day. Scotland is kept poor by the Britnats, has been for over 300 years.

Devolution is a joke, because as soon as a Britnat party were ever to get their dirty scheming paws on power at Holyrood again, they’d be instructed to and follow orders to make sure that Scotland is in fact a ‘region’ of England. It’s what they are paid for.

I was thinking, when Scotland does vote for independence, what do these British Nationalist parties’s branches in Scotland mean anymore, what do they do? Just a thought.

Sorry long comment and capitals.

Good article, the past is important, and the number of books written about Scotland is massive, so plenty to read.

For the benfit of those who might have missed it, as I posted it at the end of the last thread, I’m reposting Part 5 of “Techniques for dilution, misdirection and control of a internet forum”.

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Technique #5 – ‘ANGER TROLLING’

Statistically, there is always a percentage of the forum posters who are more inclined to violence. In order to determine who these individuals are, it is a requirement to present a image to the forum to deliberately incite a strong psychological reaction. From this the most violent in the group can be effectively singled out for reverse IP location and possibly local enforcement tracking. To accomplish this only requires posting a link to a video depicting a local police officer massively abusing his power against a very innocent individual. Statistically of the million or so police officers in America there is always one or two being caught abusing there powers and the taping of the activity can be then used for intelligence gathering purposes – without the requirement to ‘stage’ a fake abuse video. This method is extremely effective, and the more so the more abusive the video can be made to look. Sometimes it is useful to ‘lead’ the forum by replying to your own posting with your own statement of violent intent, and that you ‘do not care what the authorities think!!’ inflammation. By doing this and showing no fear it may be more effective in getting the more silent and self-disciplined violent intent members of the forum to slip and post their real intentions. This can be used later in a court of law during prosecution.
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Fed up having ‘conversations’ with Tories, Labour and LibDems? Aye, exactly, nae result is always the way. Promise you the earth and then don’t deliver…

Ironic that we are now in the opposite situation with Brexit! The Tories won’t enter any meaningful discussions with Scotland on any aspect of it. Now it’s all about taking powers away from Holyrood. Then, TMay even had the cheek recently to suggest Nicola should get behind her Chequers ridiculous already been rejected ‘plan’.

Perhaps it’s time the Scottish Government and Parliament issued an ultimatum. If there is no guarantee forthcoming soon (date to be decided) that Scotland will be in the European single market post Brexit/transition, then The Scottish people need IndyRef2 shortly after that to decide our future.

No Brexit is good, we don’t want any of it. Nicola has already set the single market as a red line. If that ain’t going to happen the, along with everything else that’s gone one, we need ‘make our minds up time’.

I have feared for months that Brexit will become a reality with no real idea of the final outcome. We need this settled asap.

Watched ‘The Handmaid’s Tale’ finale last night. Set in a dystopian world, human births have plummeted, as many men and most women become infertile. Women who can still conceive are highly prized. Christian fundamentalists have taken power in the USA and removed all women’s rights. Women cannot read or write, work, vote etc. Women are servants to men as (a)wives (b) ‘Marthas’ (housekeepers) (c) Aunts (Female Brownshirts) (d) Handmaids. The latter are fertile & highly prized, systematically raped by the elite men (Commanders). It’s quite the nightmare.

Anyway, the Commanders’ wives belatedly wake up to the fact that their new baby daughters will suffer the same selection. They petition the Commanders Parliament, begging for their daughters. They are told neutral platitudes. The ring leader, with her husband’s consent, has a finger cut off, as retribution for reading from the Bible.

All of this reminded me of Scotland’s struggle for self-empowerment. The unionists will always promise to ‘consider’ and ‘think about’ new powers but Westminster promises are as stillborn as the Commanders’ assurances to their powerless wives.

Scotland has no power other than what our rulers deign or feign to bestow. From 7 a.m. until 10 p.m on 18th September 2014, for the first time in 307 years, indeed, for the first time ever, as there was no universal suffrage in 1707, Scots held power over destiny. Then we gave it back to our masters. Some ‘staunchly’did so willingly in their ignorance but most did so out of fear or believing devomax was now on offer, (as Gordon Brown, George Galloway, Jackie Bird, and all the others too numerous to list assured us). Indeed, Blair McDougall, leader of Better Together admitted afterwards, victory was only won through fear.

Like the Commanders in ‘The Housemaid’s Tale’ they know the power they hold. It is as they often repeat, precious to them. And like Gollum, once they hold real power they will not relinquish it.Now is not the time, really means ‘never again’.

The lackeys of our masters, the legions of Tom Harris’s in the press and television, are all more concerned about their mortgages and their children’s education and their cosy futures, to risk playing by the rules. The British Empire wasn’t won by playing by the rules. British fair play is a myth.

In the Handmaid’s Tale, the underclass (women) are not allowed to read or write or learn. Our masters can’t stop Scots reading or watching TV, so they must control what we read and what we watch and learn from them only.

That is why the BBC sought to remove Wings from You Tube. They may have played their hand too soon but the threat has not gone away and when Indyref2 is called, I fully expect the BBC and other Govt machinations will do all they can to take down Wings, Bella, the Dug and others. Information is power. As Orwell summed up, ‘Who controls the past, controls the future. Who controls the present, controls the past.’ The BBC and the Britnat right wing press is doing just that, right now.

We must stop playing by their rules. It is a mug’s game which they will always win, if we play by their rules. We need to start paying attention and we need to get busy.

Now we know what the donkey following the carrot on a stick feels like!
The unionist just keep hanging real devolution in front of us but always just out of reach and never to be tasted.

One day they may even grant more powers if it buys some time. It will not be a difficult step for them because they know with devolution they can remove anything granted in a heartbeat. Therefore devolution is a false solution simply an extending lead or dog run at best.

…why do we keep falling for the false promises promoted by unionist servants in Scotland and presented by a treacherous media?

We didn’t get the things they promised but then again Scotland never does so the SNP went a different way and now Scotland is the No1 tourist destination in the UK and this European championships have set Glasgow as the future No1 sporting city in the world (the BBC said that not me)

Scotland’s becoming a world noticed country on the sly thanks to the SNP and that wasn’t what the British Nationalists intended with their Myth Commission was it
and you know what’s really good about it, the scabby British Nationalists can do nothing about it, even Jackie Burd’s rotten face was *siech* having to report it

Labour had how many years to do something in Scotland? but all they did was steal from us, now in the space of 10 years the SNP have put Scotland on the world map, and there’s more to come and still the British Nationalists can do nothing to stop us

the Scottish Government and Parliament issued an ultimatum. If there is no guarantee forthcoming soon (date to be decided) that Scotland will be in the European single market post Brexit/transition, then The Scottish people need IndyRef2 shortly after that to decide our future.
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i’m not sure this is a good idea. we have only a few weeks left beforethe final position is known official, at which point we will see leadership challenges to both tory and lab leaders, most likely followed by a ge.

we already have a mandate for indyref2, why introduce an ultimatim that gives wm a means of stopping it? in the bun fight to follow, wm will give little or no thought to scotland but that also includes their own north british branches who will have a hell of a job selling a “no deal” manifesto to their own voters.

I do not want to leave the EU and i believe that leaving the SM/CU will be a disaster. but it is from this disaster that yes will win indyref2.

” … Why is their no equivalent to GERS for the rUK? I think we all know the asnwer to that, we need to make sure more people know that every single day. Scotland is kept poor by the Britnats, has been for over 300 years.”

I find the easiest way to get that one across is not to just tell them the answer but to ask them to explain the answer to me.

Ask them the question, “If Scotland gets a block grant and they tell us they are subsidising us with English taxpayer’s money where does all the tax I’ve paid all my life go?

No matter what they answer they are caught out. If they say that Scots tax doesn’t cover the cost of the block grant then you ask them, “How is it then that the Scottish Per Capita GDP is usually higher than that of both England and of the UK as a whole”?

Then ask them how they know which countries tax papers pay the most tax and, of course, you have already set them up for being caught out as ignorant. You have already made the point that the Scots Per Capita GDP is highest in the UK and per capita GDP is the measure of that tax. So Scots pay more per head than any other part of the UK or of any other country, including England in the United Kingdom.

This leads to the stone cold fact that Scotland does NOT get the highest per capita funding in any case because Northern Ireland does. Scotland is next highest and Wales the lowest and England is funded directly by the London Ministries. You now have them beaten because the reason that the three devolved administrations have different per capita funding is because they have different devolved functions and the Block Grants are the funds devolved from the Westminster ministries to pay for the functions taken from them and devolved to the devolved administrations.

It is all very logical and explainable and also very, very wrong as a system. Even if they had devolved powers to England what of the real UK wide functions like Army, navy. RAF and security services?

Not to mention the Civil Services based in London?

Per Capita GDP is the total revenue that the Treasury gets from any given area divided by the total population of the given area.

But be ready to rubbish any attempt to claim that the London per capita GDP is higher with the fact they are comparing a financial city with a country. Then again remember that While Scotland is both a single country and a single kingdom the country of England is a single country but a three country kingdom – be sure that when comparing per capita GDP with per capita GDP that the geographic areas are comparable.

That is don’t trip yourself up by comparing the whole of Scotland with the City of London or even London City as these are two different Londons and neither is comparable to a country or a Kingdom.

BTW: The reason there is no GERS figures for England is because England, (the country of), is funded as the United Kingdom and thus gets the funding for United Kingdom assets like the, several National Museums, National Ballet, National Opera, National Theatre, et, al. – it also gets the benefits of them as tourist attractions along with such as the Greenwich Observatory and the several Royal Palaces and the Grace & Favour residences.

I need help. The two worst swear words I know are both four letters long. I am now finding that these are no longer adequate to express my disgust at the mindset of the Britnats and their actions. They are much too mild. I need a worse swear word. Are there others I don’t know? If not, can we invent some?

i believe that leaving the SM/CU will be a disaster. but it is from this disaster that yes will win indyref2.

Well, there it is in a nutshell, and that just encapsulates where we fundamentally differ. You decry being dependent on certain events happening, yet nevertheless rely fundamentally on another particular event happening (“the disaster”) to win people over to independence. But what if this event doesn’t happen?

It seems to me far more likely that if Brexit is allowed to just happen to Scotland regardless, most people will fatalistically shrug their shoulders and accept the fait accompli, no matter how bad it may eventually turn out to be. The BritNat media will go full “Dunkirk spirit” over the whole thing, and we won’t see another indy chance for another generation or more.

It’s exactly this passivity in the face of historic events that troubles me most, not least since it seems to have infected a portion of the SNP leadership as well as some posters on here. An inability or unwillingness to grasp events by the horns and turn them to our positive advantage, and instead to passively rely on things somehow turning to our advantage all on their own. As if.

Well, damn that. Brexit is but one instance, but a particularly salient one, of how we are totally “owned” by the British state, devo or no devo. Sooner (and very much sooner) rather than later we need to confront this situation head-on and positively lever our case for a different future to the max, not run away hoping things will work better for us some other day. If we fail to do this, as Nicola gave us a solemn promise we would, we will reap the miserable continuing “tag-along” outcome we will truly deserve.

Abulhaq says:
13 August, 2018 at 6:01 pm
If independence is not to become ‘a corpse’ the SNP and the wider nationalist movement must shape up. There is a leadership issue here. Does the queen have no clothes?

So where have you been hiding troll? RJ Sutherland has you well sussed. Give up abulhacker.

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um, pretty sure brexit is going to happen, i cant see corbyn stopping it. btw, if it doesnt happen, we wont have a mandate for indyref2 anymore.
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It seems to me far more likely that if Brexit is allowed to just happen to Scotland regardless, most people will fatalistically shrug their shoulders and accept the fait accompli, no matter how bad it may eventually turn out to be. The BritNat media will go full “Dunkirk spirit” over the whole thing, and we won’t see another indy chance for another generation or more.
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most people isnt all, we only need 5% to switch from no to yes for us to win. I take your point tho’ there are unionist who will vote no even if wm boils them in oil.
but i disagree with the notion that events, especially negative ones, dont effect voters regardless of the propaganda
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It’s exactly this passivity in the face of historic events that troubles me most, not least since it seems to have infected a portion of the SNP leadership as well as some posters on here. An inability or unwillingness to grasp events by the horns and turn them to our positive advantage, and instead to passively rely on things somehow turning to our advantage all on their own. As if.
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indyref2 will happen, no question, this discussion is about timing, nothing more, grasping the initiative also includes keeping your head down until the enemy runs out of ammunition

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Well, damn that. Brexit is but one instance, but a particularly salient one, of how we are totally “owned” by the British state, devo or no devo. Sooner (and very much sooner) rather than later we need to confront this situation head-on and positively lever our case for a different future to the max, not run away hoping things will work better for us some other day. If we fail to do this, as Nicola gave us a solemn promise we would, we will reap the miserable continuing “tag-along” outcome we will truly deserve.
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we are owned by westminster, unfortunately, a force far greater and more powerful than ours. you dont win by confronting such a force head on, that only plays to their strengths. you win by playing to your strengths, you hide, you move quickly, You chose the moment to attack, you chip away at their defences, you use their own momentum to lure them over a cliff. and yes, sometimes you run and hide.

It’s true, I’m not very brave…. but you would be amazed at how smart I am

we have only a few weeks left beforethe final position is known official

I reckon we won’t know. That’s my point, and potentially a big problem.

May will continue to avoid the issue. IMO there will be a change of wording regarding the Irish fallback and she will agree to that. The Withdrawal agreement will then be signed, and a transition period ‘won’. As for the accompanying unbending statement about the future relationship it will be woolly – it really won’t tell us how hard the final Brexit will be.

I may be wrong. The EU may insist on some firmer. However, they won’t want a no deal Brexit and may be pragmatic about getting the WA out of the way and allow discussion about future trade to be moved into the transition period.

My understanding is that Article 50 relates to the formulation of the WA, while Article 128 which concerns trade negotiations can only kick in after the UK has become a 3rd country. So real trade talks were never going to start until after Brexit.

heard the same from a friend in wales who has a farm with a lot of sheep. he was also worried about the knock-on effect on rural communities if the farms go by the wall, job losses, retail finished, land de-valued.

In response to schrodingers cat saying: “we have only a few weeks left before the final position is known official”, you wrote “I reckon we won’t know. That’s my point, and potentially a big problem”.

I agree with you – I hope for the best (full clarity soon) but fear for the worst, and the worst is prolonged ‘can kicking’, uncertainty and fudge. And while much of this ‘worst’ may be down to the UK government’s position, the position taken by the EU may also contribute to ‘gradualism’ or ’emergence’ of a post-Brexit relationship over a prolonged period of time.

If only Brexit did mean Brexit! But its nothing like that simple. We still face many questions and many dimensions of uncertainty: what will the Brexit/transition deal look like; when will the Scottish electorate be able to forecast what it means for the UK and Scotland: when will the impactful effects of what it means actually be felt by Scottish families and businesses – by which parts of Scottish society/business and how suddenly or gradually will the direct impacts be felt; how will the media influence public perception of these effects and the perception of the potential mitigations available to us in Scotland; and what other ‘events’ will emerge ‘naturally’ or be created which divert public attention away from the effects of Brexit?

I do not envy the task of our FM and her leadership team in adjusting their strategy and particularly their tactics, potentially on a daily/weekly/monthly basis, with respect to calling an Indyref2 whilst also: (i) doing the day jobs of government; (ii) protecting our Parliament from the ‘power grab’ – a crucial ‘backstop’; (iii) still trying to argue how to avoid the worst Brexit for Scotland and the rUK; and (iv) still keeping a close eye on how to prepare to retain and enhance representation at the next Holyrood and (if necessary) Westminster elections – a second crucial ‘backstop’.

It must be like playing chess on multiple chess boards at the same time but with the boards also overlapping to a greater or lesser extent at different times!

On farming, the big farmers lie the smug ones in Angus who think the Tories will bale them out, there is this, Brexit isn’t a single industry problem (catastrophe).

Promises, which won’t be kept, from Tories that they will help the fishing and farming industries are meaningless. Supplies, fuel, haulage, local services, national services, financial services, domestic markets, airlines: all the other industries farming and fishing need to work, are going to be hit too.

um, pretty sure brexit is going to happen, i cant see corbyn stopping it. btw, if it doesnt happen, we wont have a mandate for indyref2 anymore.

You miss my point here by a mile. Of course Brexit will happen, and your latter point is right infofar as the electoral mandate is concerned, although it’s not as though we’re totally lacking other examples.

No, I thought I had made it clear, but in case of doubt, let me repeat: your presumed reaction won’t happen. There won’t be any positive consequence for indy, but a negative one.

People won’t react against Brexit being forced upon them, they will passively accept it as a done deal, and resent anyone trying to push it any further. It will be a chorus of “sit down and shut up” like you’ve never known it before. And any opportunity will have gone with the wind.

indyref2 will happen, no question, this discussion is about timing, nothing more, grasping the initiative also includes keeping your head down until the enemy runs out of ammunition

Up until now I’ve been happy to agree about that, what with a possible snap GE, the October deadline still looming, and whatever. All fair enough. But you just threw that all away, and stated a desire to wait until the show is all but over.

We’ve been promised a choice while it still matters, but you have just declared that all null and void.

I used to agree with you about timing, but you have just blown the gaff. It’s one thing to be asked to wait by people whom you believe have a plan, are ready and willing to act, and are only waiting for the right opportunity to spring into action. That we can all support. But it’s quite another matter to be asked to wait by people whom you suspect have no plan at all and have good reason to believe from out of their own mouths have no intention of acting on any effective timescale whatever, and are working to ignore every assurance publicly given that we will have a meaningful choice while it matters.

Sorry, but I don’t care how “smart” you think you are. If you think you can maintain our steadfast allegiance by publicly stating as you did tonight that you want Brexit to be fully visited upon us before even considering lifting a finger, or giving us any say in the matter, then you can go to hell. You don’t deserve any support from anybody.

ot- The right wing in England and a few in Scotland support Israel on all issues it appears. I can remember my old man bitter about the Stern Gang who murdered British Soldiers, Diplomats and others. Many of the conspirators led Israel post ww2 supported by the USA.
I take it Murphy, Blair, Hodge Tompkinson and the other tories would condemn such terrorism? or do they view them as Freedom Fighters? Would they plant a wreath to them? Life is complicated if you are a Daily Express or Mail Reader NOT.https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lehi_(militant_group)

Senior figures in all three parties believe they should put up a united front in order to highlight the Nationalists as the only party in Scotland who want to return to being a normal independent country.
– – – – – – – – – – – – – – – – –

The “break up” of the UK is the resulting consequence of Scotland’s return to being independent again, not the reason.

Gala and RJS I agree with both your views , anyone who thinks treeza and the rest of her carpetbaggers are not kicking the can down the road to wait to see what Nicola is doing and playing for time , is deluded or not paying attention

The establishment know fully what the financial implications of loosing Scotland will be , they have also guaged correctly the infinite patience and cumbersomeness of the EU . The EU have made it clear that the Uk EU market is very important to them that is why they have put up with the ongoing shenanigans , I wouldn’t doubt that they would be amenable to further ongoing negotiations during the transition , and even that the transition could be extended . that then means that we or Nicola have run out of time and the plebs will settle in to make the best of it .

As for reasons to have another ref I think that the blatant theft of returning powers ,challenging the continuity bill and wastemonster asserting sovereignty over Scotland aligned with the denigration and ignoring Scotland’s government would be reasons enough

“Reports are coming in that NI sheep farmers will be destroyed in the event of a No deal Brexit.”

“heard the same from a friend in wales who has a farm with a lot of sheep. he was also worried about the knock-on effect on rural communities if the farms go by the wall, job losses, retail finished, land de-valued.

“Breeks @0509 “, agree your interpretation of the “ Chequers deal” . Also even if there was a “ Chequers deal” , this is completely unacceptable to Holyrood and the people of Scotland.( May has continuously reiterated no SM/CU ), therefore only conclusion is Indyref2 ,as well as same outcome re catastrophic “ No deal”. Consequently , with the possibility that May could still be deposed and GE outcome ,then the only reason I can see for our FM to “ delay” Indyref2 announcement would be if a single issue mandate for the dissolution of the union could be an option for FM if majority SNP MP’s elected? ?

https://archive.fo/pm45e
Quote..
“As I argued before, in positioning himself as a gently mocking opponent of the burqa, Boris has done his political cause no disservice: at little personal cost and with zero effort he has suddenly established himself as Britain’s Voice of Common Sense — the politician who says what everyone is thinking.”

The burqa comment seems to have been calculated. Boris is the UK’s trump and would appear to be making his move…

Greg Philo of @glasgowmg on how @BBCNews shapes the public’s perception of Israel & Palestine: “People will hear that the Palestinians have fired rockets and that Israel has ?????????. What they won’t hear of is the thousands of Palestinians killed before that attack
Video herehttps://twitter.com/robn1980/status/989550510058496000

It’s also a tactic being played by TMay and the loyal msm. By using the word ‘deal’ rather than say ‘proposal’, it’s an attempt give the impression to more gullible voters than progress has been made. Instead it has achieved nothing and moved negotiations nowhere.

However, the msm continue to give this already rejected document and credence. TMay continues to push it. Jeez, she even had the gall to suggest Nicola back it!

IMO it was only ever intended as an excuse and ploy to waste time, yet give the impress (to some people) of having achieved some progress.

@ effijy – I heard a BBC announcement this morning that the SNHS is on RED ALERT!
That sounds scary. Should we be cancelling our appointments so that priority cases get seen first? I switched off at that point. It was a mistake to switch on in the first place.

A cliff jump Brexit will be bad, very bad. (But might be good when it comes to declaring IndyRef2).

Firstly, if the Withdrawal Agreement isn’t signed, then what sort of credibility rating does that give the UK in future dealings with other countries? It sends a message that the UK won’t accept responsibilities. If the financial exit bill isn’t paid, might the EU not pursue the money through courts?

Secondly, Treasury forecast suggests that if the UK reverted to WTO trade rules, it would reduce growth by 8% over the next 15 years. Since EURef, the UK’s growth has dropped to between 1-2%, ranked 26th out of the EU28. I’m certainly no economist but to me it looks like the threat of Brexit is costing at least 1% per annum! The Treasury’s 8% seems low by that benchmark!

… and while only a minority of Tory MPs subscribe to this, the membership in the shires do!

The battle, IMO, is between those who want to kick the can and achieve a Brexit with little detail – a Blind Brexit, as Nicola called it ….. and those who are more extreme.

Where in all of this might the Labour Party be? Does anyone know? Do the Labour Party know!

And, what of the People’s Vote? It won’t happen. If there is any vote it will be a general election because the Tories go into full meltdown and/or lose DUP support.

If there is a GE, then the SNP need a rerun of 2015 NOT 2017 when half a million of its voters stayed at home. For me, that means Indy has to be a big issue in the campaign. They previous YEs vote needs to be mobilised as it was in 2015.

We are told of the great trade we have in the U.K,with England,WHAT TRADE? Oil,Gas,Water,Electricity and Whisky stolen resources.We have high standard food,Stornoway Black pudding,all brands of whisky,our veg and fruit,sent down to England for rebranding,this isn,t trade it,s theft!!WE also had so many promises,(supposed to be carried out!!)Shipbuilding,Safe guarding fishing and farming e,g To Grimsby,many more glorious trade ideas.Because the trade is so good,(un-equal) They are now using us to fund W.T.O,s,through lobbyists in America and elsewhere to push their risky deals poor quality etc,the money from these sources then goes into Tory M.P,s pockets, used as dark money (illegal) to promote more lies and promises to buy YOUR votes.Out of the E.U. in a hurry to safeguard their offshore accounts 2019. Lethargy is the last thing we need

Not enough room to write about so much is wrong in this dictatorship(who voted for Theresa May,never mind trigger article 50!?? I would like to mention Scotland England,s dumping ground.The M.O.D. sights all over Scotland ,but we do NOT have any defence our army stripped to a regiment,no air force no navy,unless a single tugboat with a rifle on board counts.Air craft carriers,No planes,will need to go to sea in an expensive convoy for protection,(OH! the planes cost £160+ each how many,and money from where??).Trident,fracking,(in Cumbria also nuclear plant and stocking nuclear rods,(FAR ENOUGH AWAY from LONDON!!??)

Cllr Arthur seems to be a bit of a self publicist, can never keep himself off air. He is the equivalent to Tory Annie Wells and LibDem Alex Cole-Hamilton. Though I believe he is a PHD (it’s an old joke I heard on Friends years ago).

” … The BritNat media will go full “Dunkirk spirit” over the whole thing, and we won’t see another indy chance for another generation or more.”

On what evidence do you base this daft claim that, ” … we won’t see another indy chance for another generation or more”?

Who says Robert?

Will that be Westminster, Holyrood or the Tories, (blue, red and yellow)”, or the people of Scotland?

A majority of the people of Scotland do not, legally or actually, require anyone’s permission to decide to hold a referendum. We, being legally sovereign as recently affirmed by the Supreme Court, can legally decide anything we want to. That’s exactly what being legally sovereign means. All that has prevented it being done long ago was that there was not a majority of the legally sovereign people of Scotland demanding such an action. Perhaps we already have that majority but we need indyref 2 to prove it.

That and nothing else is what holds back the democratically elected Government of Scotland from declaring the United Kingdom being over. The only risk is that an indyref 2 shows that a majority of the legally sovereign people of Scotland do not yet desire the United Kingdom to end.

Mind you there has always been, (kept in the background), the alternative solution that no one dares to air in public – a renegotiation of the terms of the Treaty of Union.

The reason for this suppression being that Westminster does not want the truth that Westminster is the de facto,unelected as such, Parliament of the country of England assuming they are the masters and subjugating their only kingdom partner in the United Kingdom, (as well as the other countries of Wales and N.I. that are/were parts of the Kingdom of England), as devolved legislations of the de facto parliament of the country of England. Yet that Country of England parliament has not a single member elected to it as it actually ceased to legally exist in April 1707.

We could indeed legally announce to the World that:-

“We, the legally sovereign people of Scotland have decided by a majority that the Treaty of Union which formed the United Kingdom is no longer treating the Kingdom of Scotland as an equally sovereign partner kingdom in the bipartite United Kingdom.

We thus declare the United Kingdom is disunited and wish our former Kingdom of England neighbours well as the Status Quo Anti, “Kingdom of England”.”

” … It’s exactly this passivity in the face of historic events that troubles me most, not least since it seems to have infected a portion of the SNP leadership as well as some posters on here,

Or so you claim in your above comment, and I directly quote you, ” … not least since it seems …

Seems to who, Robert? Certainly not to me and I very much doubt I am alone in so doubting your claim made as if it were a proven and accepted truth.

I could go on and pick holes in your whole concept of the real situation but I won’t.

To me, and I suspect many, if not most, other independence supporters – trust the SNP and SNP/SG who will obviously be far better informed than we are and we believe they, and certainly not the FM who is in no way a dictator, are keeping their powder dry until the time is right for holding a referendum.

The most disastrous thing that could happen is for a referendum to be prematurely called and be lost. Historically far more battles have been lost by ill-advised early attacks or the troops charging upon the enemy lines before the best strategic moment and being mown down by better equipped and better armoured enemy lines.

To put that in perspective I’ll trust a well informed FM long before I trust the feelings of such as yourself – for all I know you could be an agent provocateur.

@gala
If there is a GE, then the SNP need a rerun of 2015 NOT 2017 when half a million of its voters stayed at home. For me, that means Indy has to be a big issue in the campaign. They previous YEs vote needs to be mobilised as it was in 2015.
—————–

I have just read the NHS “Red Alert” article on the BBC website.
a) It is probably true that a shortage exists but no context is given to performance comparison with the rest of the U.K.
b) No attempt is made to investigate any impact from issues such as Brexit. Have people left the UK contributing to shortfall.
c) The efforts of the Scottish government to recruit abroad are diminished by positioning of the emotional statements from health staff. It is understandable that those involved will feel strongly about the issue and I do not blame them, I blame the BBC for using that emotional reaction to promote fear and concern.

It is one more example of “a truth” being used out of any wider framing and using selective emotive statements in order to spin a SNPbad story instead of bring focus to a an issue which impacts on the entire UK.

Why is it the case when something is going badly in England we suddenly have a deluge of “…Scotland is just as bad or worse”

Back again,Talking of jam what ever happened to Robertsons of Paisley, are Keillers of Dundee still in business.When are Bells Whisky going to start using Thames water for their British/English whisky. London will need all the help when negotiating with Geneva instead of Brussels on their W.T.O. deals,some long waits and very hard bargaining. At the moment they are stealing quality goods produced in Scotland and Wales being rebranded as British. Because Maggie Thatcher made so much on services that is about all they have to offer on W.T.O. deals to countries that they plundered.Trying to flog our products at knock prices for them to survive. Their new party the PRESERVATIVES.

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