PS I spent formative years in King of Prussia and am now in Bahstin, where when we cut you off, we do so without Rs, unless the word ends with a vowel. Plus we also tend to vowel shift for no apparent reason.

I think one of the major reasons for this lengthy discussion is that people outside the United States have a very different way of dealing with their fellow man than us here.
The wonderful common courtesy that we enjoy in this country is simply non existent in Europe for instance. I know - I am from there and on my very first trip to America I was amazed how civilized Americans are to one another.
So where are you from Horatio?

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I am a barbaric German but at least I am not a jingoist.

By the way, I did not argue against politeness, I argued against the expression of politeness via an aristocratic term which seems mildly ironic from a historical perspective as the US wanted to get rid of British monarchy.
I have an egalitarian worldview so I will never ever use or like a term like "Sir" which implies that somebody else is above or beneath me.

I think one of the major reasons for this lengthy discussion is that people outside the United States have a very different way of dealing with their fellow man than us here.
The wonderful common courtesy that we enjoy in this country is simply non existent in Europe for instance. I know - I am from there and on my very first trip to America I was amazed how civilized Americans are to one another.
So where are you from Horatio?

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I am a barbaric German but at least I am not a jingoist.

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I can understand that you are not a jingoist as there is nothing much to be proud of in the old BRD.
As a fellow landsmann I feel your pain.

I can understand that you are not a jingoist as there is nothing much to be proud of in the old BRD.
As a fellow landsmann I feel your pain.

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You can only be proud of personal achievements, not of the state of an entity that consists of millions of people. Only nationalists feel pride or pain concerning a nation (hence the term nationalist).

I think one of the major reasons for this lengthy discussion is that people outside the United States have a very different way of dealing with their fellow man than us here.
The wonderful common courtesy that we enjoy in this country is simply non existent in Europe for instance. I know - I am from there and on my very first trip to America I was amazed how civilized Americans are to one another.
So where are you from Horatio?

Click to expand...

I am a barbaric German but at least I am not a jingoist.

By the way, I did not argue against politeness, I argued against the expression of politeness via an aristocratic term which seems mildly ironic from a historical perspective as the US wanted to get rid of British monarchy.
I have an egalitarian worldview so I will never ever use or like a term like "Sir" which implies that somebody else is above or beneath me.

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If you're walking down the street and a total stranger a few paces ahead of you drops something and doesn't notice, how do you get his attention?

But like I said, it makes no logical sense (even in Starfleet) to call female superior officers "sir", because that word is inherently male. You wouldn't call male superiors "ma'am", so why call females "sir"?

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Many lawyers in the U.S. use the title "Esquire" after their names, whether they're male or female, for no apparent reason.

Actually, there is a reason, particularly if you're female (re Esq. after an attorney's name in correspondence). Before your name gets on the letterhead (this used to take a while; back in the Stone Age when I practiced, firms wanted to get their money's worth out of purchased letterhead stationery - that stuff ain't cheap!), you put Esq. after your name so that no one thinks you're a paralegal. It's also something of a title, much like MD after a physician's name.

But I do have to say I don't miss going to court and being asked, by anyone who didn't know me, "When's the lawyer gonna get here?"

Daily brushing and flossing will cure the filthy mouth and instead of sir I will accept your suggestion of addressing me as "Paragon of Courtesy"

I can understand that you are not a jingoist as there is nothing much to be proud of in the old BRD.
As a fellow landsmann I feel your pain.

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Do you have anything to offer about this discussion but nonconsequential snide comments? Before you showed up insulting about 6,727,531,000 people without provocation, we were having an interesting discussion about the use and origin of the word "sir". But I guess standing on the sidelines throwing thrash is easier than actually having a discussion.

By the way, I did not argue against politeness, I argued against the expression of politeness via an aristocratic term which seems mildly ironic from a historical perspective as the US wanted to get rid of British monarchy.
I have an egalitarian worldview so I will never ever use or like a term like "Sir" which implies that somebody else is above or beneath me.

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If you're walking down the street and a total stranger a few paces ahead of you drops something and doesn't notice, how do you get his attention?

I would say, "Excuse me, sir! You dropped this."

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I cannot reply for horatio, but in Italian (and if I understood correctly, also in German), there is no distinction between "Sir" and "Mister" used as an honorific address, so I guess that's what it is going to be used.

If you're walking down the street and a total stranger a few paces ahead of you drops something and doesn't notice, how do you get his attention?

I would say, "Excuse me, sir! You dropped this."

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I'd say the same without Sir which is due to German featuring two forms of you, one formal and one personal (this also influences the verb and the first sentence).
I totally understand why it is necessary to have a term like Sir in English. All I am saying is that a term like Mister would be more appropriate because it lacks any "farmer speaks to a knight" connotations.

^In the cited service sector where it used to address customers it doesn't imply that they are above or below you. It's simple away of being polite, English as a language evolves, and words gain new meanings whilst retaining their existing meanings.

So Sir means

An address to a superior military officer
An address to a male espically if his name or proper means of address is unknown
A man of higher rank or position.

When used in the service sector by an assitant to address to a customer they are using the second defination. It does not imply in that situation a person of higer socail standing.

Maybe it's really a matter of language internalization. As foreign speakers, we look at words from a slightly different perspective. Having learned the meaning and origin of the word before getting accustomed to use it, all meanings are present to me at the same time, without any specific order of precedence: the common form of courtesy, and the aristocratic title. For native speakers, who started using the word before they learned the specific etymology, the use as common form of courtesy is overwhelmingly dominant, and you don't ever think about the aristocratic title when adopting it.

All in all, a very interesting discussion about the use of languages, and different perspectives on it.

Maybe it's really a matter of language internalization. As foreign speakers, we look at words from a slightly different perspective. Having learned the meaning and origin of the word before getting accustomed to use it, all meanings are present to me at the same time, without any specific order of precedence: the common form of courtesy, and the aristocratic title. For native speakers, who started using the word before they learned the specific etymology, the use as common form of courtesy is overwhelmingly dominant, and you don't ever think about the aristocratic title when adopting it.

All in all, a very interesting discussion about the use of languages, and different perspectives on it.

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Good point. I'd also add that in the States, where the class system is more fluid (no hereditary titles), we don't even think about social rank when using "sir" or "ma'am."

Good point. I'd also add that in the States, where the class system is more fluid (no hereditary titles), we don't even think about social rank when using "sir" or "ma'am."

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Here in Italy we don't have hereditary titles as well (we discarded them when we became a republic), so I don't think about social ranks when using courtesy forms as signore/signora. (Well, some people still insist on being addressed by their ancient titles: usually they are laughed in their face by us commoners.)

When speaking English, on the other hand, the subtext is present in my mind. Funny that. Maybe because of the perception of (British) English as being the language of a country where nobility titles are still in use. I dunno.