To the ASSHATS who destroyed desert and built two jumps off Quartz in the McDow

...I dismantled your work. Don't do it again...it's a DESERT PRESERVE!! If you have any questions, I'm happy to give you my phone number or meet you in person to discuss it.

I've been riding in the Preserve for 11+ years, and that's the first time I've seen this. I found these going down Quartz, just past the steeper parts towards the top:
First jump, after I dismantled it and blocked it
Closer shot; I then smoothed that all out
From the other side; you can really see the damage...right through the bushes
Second jump and cut-through
Closer view
Other side; shows the damage
Dismantling #2
Done, but look at the damage. I should have blocked it off more, which I'll do next time. If someone gets out there, please build up a barricade.

Philbo - I am a MSP Bike Patroller and I've let the Patrol Lead as well as the city of Scottsdale staff know about this too. This is the crap that we mountain bikers are constantly defending against, even if was neighborhood kids who built this, we will be blamed as a group.

Waltaz & CoyoteKis, thanks again for the photos and the impromptu trail work!!

If it was a mtbr who built these, and you happen to read this, your jumps will constantly be torn down, I promise. Stop destroying the preserve.

Walt a year ago I noticed a couple kids out there with a camera, a spesh demo and an sx trail. These were the same ones that built the jumps off Gateway south/west of the Paradise cutoff. Wouldnt doubt if these were the same. They come from lower paradise

good job backing up your critique with more than words. Must confess I am of mixed minds cause I would love some b-lines in the McDs, and given all the houses, development, off-trail hikers, and trailheads the damage is not a big deal in comparison. But Walt and Tjkm make good points about the Preserve, and a proper b-line should not cause damage or spider trails. At least these jumps have clear lines-of-sight, the ones on Bell were into some corners which is just dangerous.

I think some decent B-lines could be made at the very bottom of Quartz where it cuts through the golf course. There are some small natural cliffs there along with some slope for speed, easy loop back to the top, water from the golf course, and its just a scar of a cut-through anyway so its not causing damage and probably no one would care. If you see the builders, maybe politely suggest that or some better alternatives. Gotta at least appreciate how the local kids feel about wanting different variety in their neighborhood -- I feel the same way .

good job backing up your critique with more than words. Must confess I am of mixed minds cause I would love some b-lines in the McDs, and given all the houses, development, off-trail hikers, and trailheads the damage is not a big deal in comparison. But Walt and Tjkm make good points about the Preserve, and a proper b-line should not cause damage or spider trails. At least these jumps have clear lines-of-sight, the ones on Bell were into some corners which is just dangerous.

I think some decent B-lines could be made at the very bottom of Quartz where it cuts through the golf course. There are some small natural cliffs there along with some slope for speed, easy loop back to the top, water from the golf course, and its just a scar of a cut-through anyway so its not causing damage and probably no one would care. If you see the builders, maybe politely suggest that or some better alternatives. Gotta at least appreciate how the local kids feel about wanting different variety in their neighborhood -- I feel the same way .

Maybe the trails are not meeting the current growing demands for more challenging and creative trail building? I'm just playing devils advocate here.

stuff like that down on the flats is local kids on huffy's....seen it in other places too...they never last long because they're pretty crappy and poorly thought out, but ugly nonetheless. Good on you for for killing the lines.

It would be another thing however, to see some tabletops coming off of Windgate on the east side, straight line descent.......that would just be irresponsibly rad.....kinda like when after the snowpacalypse, someone built a kicker off the cornice into Rustler and folks were hucking their meat in clear sight of folks riding the lift....that was also irresponsibly rad.

stuff like that down on the flats is local kids on huffy's....seen it in other places too...they never last long because they're pretty crappy and poorly thought out, but ugly nonetheless. Good on you for for killing the lines.

It would be another thing however, to see some tabletops coming off of Windgate on the east side, straight line descent.......that would just be irresponsibly rad.....kinda like when after the snowpacalypse, someone built a kicker off the cornice into Rustler and folks were hucking their meat in clear sight of folks riding the lift....that was also irresponsibly rad.

I agree with Chollaball that some well placed, APPROVED, b-line options would be appropriate in some of the lesser used areas, that is just my opinion and not that of the MSC. I think it would be extremely difficult to sell that to the city and MSC though, as the 'Preserve' designation is there to minimize disruption to the land/ecosystem while allowing approved, restricted access to users.

you know, when an idiot cuts across a desert to get to another point on the trail. the worse part is the section I am speaking of the approved trail is only 20 yards away and yet someone cut straight through to they don't have to make a hard right or left turn (depending which direction the rider is going)

Last edited by TacoBeer; 06-09-2013 at 03:56 PM.

"Not drinking is the Single Speed World Championships version of doping" -Jacquie Phelan

Tjkm - the Preserve decision-makers view 'construction' differently than access. Access is their mission, and they have no problems justifying restrooms, horse-trailer dedicated parking, amphitheaters etc. in the name of access.

From today's AZ Republichttp://www.azcentral.com/community/s...trailhead.html
"The $3.8 million Brown’s Ranch Trailhead, 30301 N. Alma School Parkway, provides parking and other amenities for visitors to better access the newly acquired desert, which runs east of Pima Road and south of the Tonto National Forest."

I dont see how you can spend 4M on something and call it access, and not 'features', but that is how the powers-that-be interpret it. I encountered this ingrained viewpoint at a planning meeting for Brown's Ranch TH a couple years ago. Nearly got laughed out of the room when I proposes a pump track in the parking lot. A shower facility was taken seriously, however. There is no way at all any approved b-lines will ever become a reality. No building, period.

The criteria the Somo rangers seem to use for b-lines is if its on rock (ie, non destructive), and no constructions (no ramps), and not putting the main trail users in any risk, they will allow it to remain open and unblocked. But, even that doesnt allow ramps. So, you are now left with the reality that neighborhood kids and others want those features, are going to make them, and you just need to be prepared to tear them down. To think we have all that land, all those TH's, and its all for XC-style travel seems kinda...I dunno...dull, uncreative, confining.

Prob 12-22 year old kids who doesn't read this...Write them a letter and tie it to the spot if you want them to learn. Kids who build jumps in the desert when it's 100+ out are probably head headed. They will just do it again if they don't know why they can't build jumps...The desert is just a vacant lot to most kids

Isnt the desert just a vacant lot to urban sprawl? I get it. I really do. I was pissed when I found a bunch of corner cutting at Hawes this winter and spent my own time shutting down as many as I found. That being said I cant help but feel hypocritical on getting upset about a 10 ft corner cut when how much desert did the construction of my home destroy? How much for the roads I travel on everyday and on and on. Why is it acceptable to destroy so much on one hand and then a little 12 inch wide trail is unacceptable? Im not judging anyone just sharing my internal struggle with the issue.

Last edited by Douger-1; 06-11-2013 at 12:55 PM.

“Twenty years from now you will be more disappointed by the things that you didn't do than by the ones you did." Mark Twain

Isnt the desert just a vacant lot to urban sprawl? I get it. I really do. I was pissed when I found a bunch of corner cutting at Hawes this winter and spent my own time shutting down as many down as I found. That being said I cant help but feel hypocritical on getting upset about a 10 ft corner cut when how much desert did the construction of my home destroy? How much for the roads I travel on everyday and on and on. Why is it acceptable to destroy so much on one hand and then a little 12 inch wide trail is unacceptable? Im not judging anyone just sharing my internal struggle with the issue.

I've thought the same thing. I've just always kept in the back of my mind that I don't 'own' said land, and am just happy to be able to ride it. I can't say that I'm never tempted to add things to trails (I have not in AZ) since in CT it was acceptable to do it, depending where of course.

“Think of bicycles as rideable art that can just about save the world.” -Grant Petersen

The whole point of a Preserve is to keep it in as natural state as possible, users out hiking/biking want to enjoy the beauty and serenity of the desert without seeing man made objects (Jumps,etc.) everywhere.

To the ASSHATS who destroyed desert and built two jumps off Quartz in the McDow

Originally Posted by Azpilot

The whole point of a Preserve is to keep it in as natural state as possible, users out hiking/biking want to enjoy the beauty and serenity of the desert without seeing man made objects (Jumps,etc.) everywhere.

Like the houses that are noticeable in the pic? To me, that ruins the serenity more than a jump/B line on the trail. Hell, I probably would have ridden them!

Isnt the desert just a vacant lot to urban sprawl? I get it. I really do. I was pissed when I found a bunch of corner cutting at Hawes this winter and spent my own time shutting down as many as I found. That being said I cant help but feel hypocritical on getting upset about a 10 ft corner cut when how much desert did the construction of my home destroy? How much for the roads I travel on everyday and on and on. Why is it acceptable to destroy so much on one hand and then a little 12 inch wide trail is unacceptable? Im not judging anyone just sharing my internal struggle with the issue.

Yep. Phenis, diverting water into the desert for swimming pools and golf courses, how un-natural can you get. Preserve? What a joke.

I guess we could always pave over the Preserves so as not to be hypocrites. Not sure what it would solve though....

I see the value in the preserves but come on man, the irony in this thread is overwhelming. It's like if in ten years from now the tribe is complaining about trash in the confluence after they built the tram.

CB - It would be nice if there were a bit more open minded views on what could be done in the immediate areas adjacent to the trail head, like the pump track idea you proposed. It seems to work well at McDowell on the county side. At least you went and proposed an alternate view of what could work at these trail heads. I personally think it is a lost opportunity. Lets see if the $70M proposed 'Desert Discovery' center gets approved to be built at the Gateway Trailhead. Ever wonder why the current TH is set so far back from Thompson Peak......? These alternate uses are okay, as long as it's their idea and fits their agenda.

Originally Posted by chollaball

Tjkm - the Preserve decision-makers view 'construction' differently than access. Access is their mission, and they have no problems justifying restrooms, horse-trailer dedicated parking, amphitheaters etc. in the name of access.

From today's AZ Republichttp://www.azcentral.com/community/s...trailhead.html
"The $3.8 million Brown’s Ranch Trailhead, 30301 N. Alma School Parkway, provides parking and other amenities for visitors to better access the newly acquired desert, which runs east of Pima Road and south of the Tonto National Forest."

I dont see how you can spend 4M on something and call it access, and not 'features', but that is how the powers-that-be interpret it. I encountered this ingrained viewpoint at a planning meeting for Brown's Ranch TH a couple years ago. Nearly got laughed out of the room when I proposes a pump track in the parking lot. A shower facility was taken seriously, however. There is no way at all any approved b-lines will ever become a reality. No building, period.

The criteria the Somo rangers seem to use for b-lines is if its on rock (ie, non destructive), and no constructions (no ramps), and not putting the main trail users in any risk, they will allow it to remain open and unblocked. But, even that doesnt allow ramps. So, you are now left with the reality that neighborhood kids and others want those features, are going to make them, and you just need to be prepared to tear them down. To think we have all that land, all those TH's, and its all for XC-style travel seems kinda...I dunno...dull, uncreative, confining.

It's interesting to see the trails that have been built in the Anchorage city parks. They got tons of flow, tabletops, doubles, some drops, etc, and everything has a ride-around of course. It's neat to see an area where they really "get it", vs the miles of mediocre trails put in year after year in other places. For some reason, other places just can't get past the flat-trail idea and can't put in anything other than a beginner to low intermediate trail. If you just look at the miles of certain kinds of trail put in vs others, it tells a story. Doesn't make what these punks did right, but it's approaching the "something's got to give" point in many places.

"It's only when you stand over it, you know, when you physically stand over the bike, that then you say 'hey, I don't have much stand over height', you know"-T. Ellsworth

It's interesting to see the trails that have been built in the Anchorage city parks. They got tons of flow, tabletops, doubles, some drops, etc, and everything has a ride-around of course. It's neat to see an area where they really "get it", vs the miles of mediocre trails put in year after year in other places. For some reason, other places just can't get past the flat-trail idea and can't put in anything other than a beginner to low intermediate trail. If you just look at the miles of certain kinds of trail put in vs others, it tells a story. Doesn't make what these punks did right, but it's approaching the "something's got to give" point in many places.

It's interesting to see the trails that have been built in the Anchorage city parks. They got tons of flow, tabletops, doubles, some drops, etc, and everything has a ride-around of course. It's neat to see an area where they really "get it", vs the miles of mediocre trails put in year after year in other places. For some reason, other places just can't get past the flat-trail idea and can't put in anything other than a beginner to low intermediate trail. If you just look at the miles of certain kinds of trail put in vs others, it tells a story. Doesn't make what these punks did right, but it's approaching the "something's got to give" point in many places.

That's why it's painfully clear we do not have "biking" or even "multi-use" trails here. We have hiking trails where bikes are permitted. Nothing more.

That's why it's painfully clear we do not have "biking" or even "multi-use" trails here. We have hiking trails where bikes are permitted. Nothing more.

BigO - I was hoping you'd come on a Tom's Thumb ride with me and provide your unique blend of color commentary!! FWIW, all the hikers I passed at the top last weekend were super-friendly and stoked to watch us ride down.

@Philbo - the rules were written years ago by a bunch of dusty old farts who didn't know what an mtb was. We are underrepresented in the project plan - one look at trails like Sonoran ought to make that clear. To use the existing ruleset as a basis for judging right and wrong is tautological. This kind of pressure is essential if you ever hope to see an archaic access plan modernized. Every time it happens, there is a lot of chest-beating and doomsaying, but the mtb community usually comes out better for it. If AZpilot wasn't such a tool he'd inform us about all the improvements and additional bike-friendly trail in Chicago 10 years after his 'example' of illegal bike activity. Dont you see the improvements to mtb'ing in Sedona, despite your hatred of TrailDoc? Its a fact that some of the Scottsdale city planners read this board, and I guareatee with tjkm being a steward they will be informed of mtbrs' opinions on the matter. The takeaways for them are 1) most mtbrs think bad jumps in bad places are a bad idea 2) mtbrs are willing to act on bad trail design to both change it to suit them AND police it, and 3) many mtbrs think the current system and rules need some modification to include our interests specifically.

BigO - I was hoping you'd come on a Tom's Thumb ride with me and provide your unique blend of color commentary!! FWIW, all the hikers I passed at the top last weekend were super-friendly and stoked to watch us ride down.

You'd be carrying me down if I tagged along! I can't handle that kinda elevation gain I definitely would like to try it sometime but I'd be slower than sh|t so wouldn't want to burden anyone with waiting for my slow self. I need to find some friends that are slower than me and talk them into it. Problem is, the friends that are slower are also smart enough to know I'm setting them up. Maybe when it starts to cool in October I'll set that goal. I'll put it right underneath Goat Camp!

Funny you mention the hikers. Almost all the hikers I meet are friendly and I make sure to say "morning" to everyone I pass. Sometimes they are surprised when you yield to them. That shows how poorly we are thought of.

I stopped a couple weeks ago on National for a group of 4 or 5 hikers and said "come on up" and the guy in front of the group said, "oh, we wanted to watch you ride down this." I said, "alright. I'll try to make it interesting." It wasn't a super tough section but it wasn't flat but something that looks difficult to someone that doesn't ride.

BigO - I was hoping you'd come on a Tom's Thumb ride with me and provide your unique blend of color commentary!! FWIW, all the hikers I passed at the top last weekend were super-friendly and stoked to watch us ride down.

@Philbo - the rules were written years ago by a bunch of dusty old farts who didn't know what an mtb was. We are underrepresented in the project plan - one look at trails like Sonoran ought to make that clear. To use the existing ruleset as a basis for judging right and wrong is tautological. This kind of pressure is essential if you ever hope to see an archaic access plan modernized. Every time it happens, there is a lot of chest-beating and doomsaying, but the mtb community usually comes out better for it. If AZpilot wasn't such a tool he'd inform us about all the improvements and additional bike-friendly trail in Chicago 10 years after his 'example' of illegal bike activity. Dont you see the improvements to mtb'ing in Sedona, despite your hatred of TrailDoc? Its a fact that some of the Scottsdale city planners read this board, and I guareatee with tjkm being a steward they will be informed of mtbrs' opinions on the matter. The takeaways for them are 1) most mtbrs think bad jumps in bad places are a bad idea 2) mtbrs are willing to act on bad trail design to both change it to suit them AND police it, and 3) many mtbrs think the current system and rules need some modification to include our interests specifically.

Yeah, I'm opinionated.....but to try an answer your question.

"the rules were written years ago by a bunch of dusty old farts who didn't know what an mtb was. "

The statement above has absolutely nothing to do with the rules in the preserve.

The definition and purpose of a Preserve are different then a Maricopa county park (Mcdowell, White tanks,etc)which is why the parks have a competitive track,races ,etc. something you will never see in a Preserve......enjoy it for what it is.

To my point about things being a bit hypocritical, this is a perfect example. Doing a little math and assuming an avergae singletrack trail is 2 feet wide, 40 miles of trail yields a total of 422400 sqft of "illegal trail" which equals about 9.7 acres of land if you were wind it all up together.

A quick internet search shows Cook County Forest Preserve to be over 68000 acres total.

So does no one find it hypocritical that those 9.7 acres out of 68000 are bad and have an impact on the local plant life etc etc when (as a resident of Cook County for 30 years) I can attest to the countless 4 lane roads that run through those very same preserves.

How about the 3700 acre Busse Woods preserve that has 11 miles of 8 foot wide paved trail running through it which comes out to 10.6 acres of paved pathway alone?

Im not saying to go out and pave the preserves. Im not saying illegal un-controlled building is a good thing. Im mearly pointing out what I feel is some seriously hypocritical logic when it comes down to trails.

I think its great that Walt wanted to save 40 sqft of desert. Ive done the same at Hawes. It means we are passionate. Im mearly saying I find it interesting that we as people, can be so passionate about 40 sqft here and yet totally disregard several 100 acres somewhere else simply depending on how its classified. Maybe Im being too deep. Maybe I think too much about stuff (I think my wife would agree on this). Maybe I need to get back to work. I will shut up now.

“Twenty years from now you will be more disappointed by the things that you didn't do than by the ones you did." Mark Twain

You'd be carrying me down if I tagged along! I can't handle that kinda elevation gain I definitely would like to try it sometime but I'd be slower than sh|t so wouldn't want to burden anyone with waiting for my slow self. I need to find some friends that are slower than me and talk them into it. Problem is, the friends that are slower are also smart enough to know I'm setting them up. Maybe when it starts to cool in October I'll set that goal. I'll put it right underneath Goat Camp!

Funny you mention the hikers. Almost all the hikers I meet are friendly and I make sure to say "morning" to everyone I pass. Sometimes they are surprised when you yield to them. That shows how poorly we are thought of.

I stopped a couple weeks ago on National for a group of 4 or 5 hikers and said "come on up" and the guy in front of the group said, "oh, we wanted to watch you ride down this." I said, "alright. I'll try to make it interesting." It wasn't a super tough section but it wasn't flat but something that looks difficult to someone that doesn't ride.

To the ASSHATS who destroyed desert and built two jumps off Quartz in the McDow

Originally Posted by Douger-1

To my point about things being a bit hypocritical, this is a perfect example. Doing a little math and assuming an avergae singletrack trail is 2 feet wide, 40 miles of trail yields a total of 422400 sqft of "illegal trail" which equals about 9.7 acres of land if you were wind it all up together.

A quick internet search shows Cook County Forest Preserve to be over 68000 acres total.

So does no one find it hypocritical that those 9.7 acres out of 68000 are bad and have an impact on the local plant life etc etc when (as a resident of Cook County for 30 years) I can attest to the countless 4 lane roads that run through those very same preserves.

How about the 3700 acre Busse Woods preserve that has 11 miles of 8 foot wide paved trail running through it which comes out to 10.6 acres of paved pathway alone?

Im not saying to go out and pave the preserves. Im not saying illegal un-controlled building is a good thing. Im mearly pointing out what I feel is some seriously hypocritical logic when it comes down to trails.

I think its great that Walt wanted to save 40 sqft of desert. Ive done the same at Hawes. It means we are passionate. Im mearly saying I find it interesting that we as people, can be so passionate about 40 sqft here and yet totally disregard several 100 acres somewhere else simply depending on how its classified. Maybe Im being too deep. Maybe I think too much about stuff (I think my wife would agree on this). Maybe I need to get back to work. I will shut up now.

I agree with this, view of logical thinking.

On a side note, if done correctly, logic could be used to prove any point. Buddy Hackett once used logic to prove a point about goldfish owners.

Personally I believe one of the lesser spoken motives behind creating a Preserve is to keep Joey Billionaire from buying a huge lot, putting up a giant house and then closing access to all but themselves. So really it's about access for everyone. I like tech, jumps, and drops. Phoenix caters to 1 of the 3 and even then it's only the older trails. A lot of the new stuff is just shy of wheel chair ramps (ie. the "improvement" on the Go John Trail).

Jibro- your Joey Billionaire scenario is exactly what was going on at Pinnacle Peak about 10 years ago, thankfully public access was gained and we have had close to a decade of hiking and climbing access (and some serious scenery). You can bet your a$$ if the preserve was not there, you would have homes all the way up and in Windgate Pass. Think about all the development fees and property tax the city COULD have collected if they allowed building to occur vs. preserve establishment. So, I disagree with your assessment that is not about access for everyone. It would have been even easier to let Pima / Dynamite turn into golf courses and more Troon neighborhoods, but again, access was gained and investment made in the preserve. BTW, the Browns Ranch Trailhead opened Monday morning with 54 miles of new trails. I plan on checking this out over the weekend.........

Originally Posted by Jibro

I agree with this, view of logical thinking.

On a side note, if done correctly, logic could be used to prove any point. Buddy Hackett once used logic to prove a point about goldfish owners.

Personally I believe one of the lesser spoken motives behind creating a Preserve is to keep Joey Billionaire from buying a huge lot, putting up a giant house and then closing access to all but themselves. So really it's about access for everyone. I like tech, jumps, and drops. Phoenix caters to 1 of the 3 and even then it's only the older trails. A lot of the new stuff is just shy of wheel chair ramps (ie. the "improvement" on the Go John Trail).

The spot where the jumps were aren't in the official preserve, it's a right of way trail owned by the city that provides access into the preserve. That doesn't make it OK to build features that weren't in the original trail design. Preserve, park, vacant lot, wide open desert, forest, etc.; whatever the "ownership" is, if you don't have the legal title to it then it ain't yours to do whatever you please.