The Meek Shall Not Inherit My Vagina

Several months back, I emailed a guy on OKCupid. We exchanged about 3 messages,most of which revolved around our thoughts on the site and online dating in general. Since I don’t do the extended email exchange thing, I responded to his last email by saying, “So, Mr. Username. What’s our next move?”

I was giving him the green light. I awaited his email response with a suggestion of when to meet. Instead I got this:

“Ha well what would you like? And what kind of guy are you attracted to physically?”

Wrong answer. For starters, I emailed him. Ergo, I must have found him physically attractive. I get a question like that and I wonder why it’s being asked. To me, that’s a bad sign. Like maybe he no longer looks like his photos. Or that he’s insecure and needs coddling. Whatever it was, he was stalling. The moment I sense that, I bail. Of course, within 20 minutes, I had another message from him asking if he had scared me off. I replied and told him that all the questions were giving me pause and that I prefer more assertive men.

He replied assuring me that he was confident and assertive when need be. But, see, what he didn’t do was show me how confident he was. Remember, online dating is about showing. Not telling. That was his opportunity to seize the moment and suggest a certain night when we could meet for a drink. Instead he offered a series of excuses. I didn’t reply. He then emailed me again saying, “Oh well. Guess you’re not interested. If you change your mind you know where to find me.”

Block.

Three strikes and you’re out. Between the multiple follow up messages and strange questions, this guy made it abundantly clear he was ambivalent. Maybe even not terribly interested. Either way, I punched out.

Some will say, and I see their point, that I could have asked him out. But, much like some of you red pillers, I have my own filters. I open the door. If he walks in, then that’s a sign he’s confident and, hopefully, will be easy to deal with. It also indicates a level of genuine interest. If he stalls, as this guy did, that means he needs cajoling or is hesitant for some reason. Not for me. While submissiveness has a time and place, passivity does not. I also threw away my tap shoes, which means I don’t feel a need to perform for some stranger. Meet me or don’t. Just don’t waste my time.

Many will say that I was quick to judge. Yup. Welcome to online dating in 2012. Where everybody judges swiftly and harshly and there are no second chances.Whether this is accurate or not, we all believe we have plenty of options. Granted, many of us have fewer than we realize. But you are never going to convince someone that they aren’t as great of a catch as they think they are. So don’t bother.

This is why messages that simply say, “Hi” get ignored by most women. ( Unless the guy is hot, of course. Then his two character greeting is considered succinct and direct. That’s sexy. The truth is that many people have these arbitrary rules and guidelines that, in the end, mean and prevent us from nothing. They don’t actually work. We just think they do.) It’s not that we all need to feel inordinately special, though many do. We want to meet people that seem like they want to meet us.

I assume that men are communicating with multiple women at any given time. But I don’t want to know it. But that’s how the whole “let’s throw this against the wall and see what sticks” attitude conveyed in exchanges and messages like the ones discussed here come across. Aimless. Random. I’m happy to show interest , but it has to be mutual.

40 Responses to “The Meek Shall Not Inherit My Vagina”

I think you handled that very well. He was probably just enjoying the attention you were giving him, and hand no intention of meeting you unless you chased the hell out of him and told him you were DTF.

Generally, my view of women who message first is that they are of lower value than the ones you have to work for. Completely illogical, but that’s the impression I get. Especially if she’s older, overweight and not so attractive. I generally don’t reply to those, but I can see how some guys with approach anxiety would get an ego boost from these broads.

If I’m interested in someone who messages me first, I would ask her out before someone else does. But then if I was really that interested in her, I would have messaged her first.

Generally, my view of women who message first is that they are of lower value than the ones you have to work for.

I totally disagree. A couple of the loveliest women I dated online contacted me first. Perhaps the ones contacting you specifically are of lesser value – but that says more about you than them. Whoever seeks one out is a common indicator of one’s league. Meanwhile the people you have to work far are probably out of your league. So I think you may have to adjust your valuation of women. If a woman really wants to swing for the fences, she’s likely going to pursue someone a lot better than you (or me for that matter). Water seeks its own level.

I think your definition of league is a bit simplistic. For example, the hot 25 year old blonde who gets messaged from everyone aged 18 to 65. Only a small percentage of the men are in her league. The rest are just hoping to get lucky.

The old fat guys contacting the hot blonde are no reflection on her, unless you’re read The Secret, and actually believe in that crap.

You make a good point. The worst of who we attract is indeed not our league, however the best of who we attract is. So the question is: what is the best you are consistently attracting online? Instead of prejudging all women who contact you as having less value, you ought to get off your high horse and be flattered that someone thought highly enough of you to reach out. We all get replies from people we’re not interested in. Doesn’t mean they have less value as people – they’re just not for us. You can seperate the wheat from the chaff without belittling people.

Bottom line: if you are worthy of a woman of “high value”, then you shouldn’t have to work so hard for one. They would want you as much as you want them without all the work. Food for thought.

I think you were quick to judge, but you judged correctly. First impressions are pretty accurate. He seemed hesitant, which sounded like he enjoyed the ego boost he was getting from you, no more, no less. Would you ever consider a matchmaker? I think these kinds of interactions with people at online sites has to be tiring after a while, or are you enjoying dating and aren’t in a rush?

This is why messages that simply say, “Hi” get ignored by most women. ( Unless the guy is hot, of course. Then his two character greeting is considered succinct and direct. That’s sexy. The truth is that many people have these arbitrary rules and guidelines that, in the end”

This is precisely why I only write “hi” or a few words in an email, and usually wait for some indication of interest before contacting someone. “Hot” is a relative term. This may be surprising, but I WANT the woman I’m contacting to think I’m hot. Who needs to spend time and energy trying to convince someone that you’re good enough for them? Let them ignore my email if they are offended by “hi” or don’t think I’m hot enough.

The thing with the ‘hi’ emails: 90% of the profiles are the same: “I have great friends, I love to travel.” there’s very little personality in them; something to latch on. So you have no choice but to send a ‘Hey, I like your profile’ email. And honestly, there’s so many men online and women rarely ever email back, so there is the whole ‘throw spaghetti against the wall to see what sticks’ mentality. Bottom line, maybe online dating has run its course: there’s too many square pegs online trying to find round holes, and the round holes aren’t interested, which is why I find the whole Match.com events idea amusing: men spend their time emailing women online who aren’t interested and don’t email back…so you want to put them in a bar together?

While Moxie’s interpreted ambivalence in the guy, there’s also something else going on here. Too many men in their 40s were raised and taught to NOT be assertive and direct with women, to let women take the lead regarding dating and relationships. I think it’s a weird, new-age form of putting women on a pedestal and also a wretched side-effect of the whole notion that the masculine sex drive is demonized.

Moxie called it, she saved time and effort. When doing the online dating thing, the man must always be escalating. Meekness is not politeness, it’s simply meek.

Meakness is also the antithesis of sexy in men. I think that most women want a man who is somewhat more dominant than they are, if not a lot more dominant. I don’t mean the extreme, but a guy who sees what he wants and pursues it communicates strength and masculinity.

“a guy who sees what he wants and pursues it communicates strength and masculinity.”

Well, I agree that this is something that women say but I wonder if that’s really a source of attraction. My experience is that women in fact prefer a man who is somewhat unavailable and aloof, eg a man projecting that he has options, not in active pursuit of a single thing. Sure, if your fantasy man is in active pursuit of you, you think you’re happy. But, that’s your fantasy. In reality, the guys “pursuing” you are annoying and too available.

Even in Moxie’s example, she bantered with guy by email for a while before deciding he was meek and giving up. Meanwhile, I’m sure there were suitors that she was blowing off as undesirable. There were guys commenting on this blog that were falling all over themselves for her the other day. Were they viewed as more masculine and attractive?

You always make good points, DMN. You’re right. I would say, on average, it’s a balance. Directness only wins if we’re already interested (which Moxie demonstrated by contacting him first and bantering with him via e-mail).

There are two things here…first, flattery isn’t the same as seeing something and going for it. If you are an attractive woman at all, you get a lot of flattery. To a large degree, as a single person, I tuned it out. Maybe guys think they’re being direct by flattering us, but they aren’t. Being direct is saying, “Let’s go have coffee. I would like to spend more time with you.” Flattering is throwing bait out but avoiding the risk of rejection. I don’t think women respond to the latter. Flattering falls into the category of pandering, and I don’t think pandering works. Pandering is George Costanza. Being direct is Don Draper.

Secondly, you are right, it is possible for a man to be too available. I am as fucked up in this regard as any other woman–I did not want a guy who made it too easy for me. That would cause me to lose respect for him. When J and I met, we had a date. Then, I didn’t hear from him for several days. He e-mailed, then I would e-mail back, but never too fast, and never more than he contacted me. His scarcity made him more mysterious and interesting to me. I wasn’t even sure that he was romantically interested in me until our 3rd date. I wouldn’t necessarily recommend that strategy for every guy, some women would probably have given up, but he was enough of a challenge (and attractive enough to me) that I didn’t. I kept my options open, but he was the guy I wanted. If he had been less attractive (in personality and appearance), the fact that I didn’t hear from him every day probably would have been caused me to write him off. So, it’s a delicate thing. If you are attractive enough, some scarcity will only make you more attractive. If you aren’t, it might cause her to lose interest. If you are too available, I’m going to think that you’re needy and desperate.

As we got to know each other better, I started realizing that he was very inexperienced at dating (particularly at starting a relationship with a stranger) and that he is very introverted and probably wouldn’t feel a need to contact a woman more than once or twice a week (probably less) if he wasn’t in a committed relationship with her. These are all reasons why such a great guy was still single at 40 and had never been married.

Writing all of this out makes me understand why men find us so complicated at times.

Many things. Not contacting you too soon after your first date, not contacting you “daily,” being somewhat unavailable, keeping you guessing a little bit about his intentions, but giving just enough interest to keep you interested. All classic game techniques. But techniques that come natural to some men.

Generally, my view of women who message first is that they are of lower value than the ones you have to work for.

I actually read a profile of a guy who said this very thing. People with this mentality are in denial of the fact that, for the most part, the people who email them are their league. That’s what they can feasibly pull. The ones you have to “work for” are the ones who don’t want to be caught or who have so many options they don’t choose.

I don’t know. I met my Ex on OKC and dated him for several months. I contacted him first. The guy after that I met on OKC (he viewed my profile and I contacted him first) and dated him for a couple months. Guy I’m dating now is someone I met on OKC (he contacted me.) What’s the point of dating online if you’re going to make such illogical assumptions?

Agree and disagree. I agree with the proposition that women who show interest generally define the outer limits of your league. But. Women often “show interest” in ways other than sending an email. They may view your profile openly, for example. So, your league is not limited to those who send you an email online. Second, you may get contacted by women who are way below your league, who are either delusional, or throwing a hail mary pass. So, your league is not defined by the most hideous woman that contacts you. But, it is fair to say that the “hottest” woman that “shows interest” (however she does it) is generally the best you can do. This is in general and, of course, all relative.

It seems to me that people who exclusively date online are constantly finding more reasons not to go out with someone than they seek reasons to go out with them, and they will use something arbitrary like the person contacting them first. Like, “How dare you show interest in me? Can’t you just ignore me while I actively chase you so we can go on one date and I can complain about how women who I show interest in don’t want to date me?”

I think you guys are looking into my comments a little too much. If the woman contacts me first, and I find her unattractive, I ignore. If she’s attractive, I’ll ask her out, but would not work so hard to impress her on the date, as she has already indicted that she’s interested in me.

I disagree with the assertion that everyone who contacts you online is “your league”. The women who contact me range from age-appropriate attractive professional women with great profiles, to fugly cougars, BBWs, and one guy who said I had a nice eyes.

Your league is the average of the women YOU contact, who express a genuine interest back. /i guess for women, their true league are the fellas who actually want a relationship with them, and not a pump and dump.

If she’s attractive, I’ll ask her out, but would not work so hard to impress her on the date, as she has already indicted that she’s interested in me.

Right. But if she’s emailing you, and you find her attractive, then other men probably do, too. So while you’re actively trying not to impress her, some other guy who doesn’t drink the Kool Aid is.

It just seems like you spend way too much time and effort analyzing things and strategizing, and I can’t imagine it results in anything productive or worthwhile. It seems more important to you to always come out on top than to date or even have sex. You’d rather spin your wheels on a woman who is probably dating multiple people than to focus on someone who might have fewer options and is more interested/available. You’re out to prove that you can do better than you probably actually can.

Your league is the average of the women YOU contact, who express a genuine interest back.

Nope. You have no idea, of those women who respond, which of them are genuinely interested and not just looking for something to do or looking for someone to buy them a free meal.

/i guess for women, their true league are the fellas who actually want a relationship with them, and not a pump and dump.

Same goes for men. Their true league are the women who want relationships, not just attention and free meals.

Did he hope (expect) to get physical when you met? Did he want you to describe him? Does he have a “type” and believe you must have one too? What happens if you describe something he doesn’t quite match? Does he plan to make himself into what you described?

If the emails were initially small talk about your respective thoughts about OKC and online dating in general, is it possible he hadn’t truly understand your interest up to that point?

I personally cringe when someone asks me how the site is going for me. To me it’s akin to someone walking up to me in a bar or at a party and asking me okay so what’s the scoop? Any Interesting people here? Hot girls? Know anyone you can introduce me to? Or should I leave and not waste my time.

Like you mentioned, I also don’t want to know that guys are dating multiple women. I know it’s probably occurring, just don’t tell me. So I make a small gesture saying it’s everyone’s unique experience (being on OKC). Then I wait to see if he expresses some connection to why he contacted me.

He said ‘ha, what would you like’ The ha part to me said this girl’s got moxie. The what would you like part gave you an open invitation to say something like ‘maybe get to know more about you…see if we click’. A connection to him.

Did this guy really get a fair shot? He asked what do you like physically. Maybe could you have flirted with him? You are precious and great with words. If he didn’t run with the ball at that point, yep I agree, time to bail, knowing you made the effort, no regrets.

No one is perfect online or in person. I just think if you’re gonna reach out, then be ready for a few strikes before the home run.

is it possible he hadn’t truly understand your interest up to that point?

What’s to understand? If she contacted him, her interest should be clear. It’s a dating site.

He said ‘ha, what would you like’

Both the “ha” and the “what would you like” are inherently a weak response. She asked a specific questions: what’s your next move? And he didn’t have one. That’s a red matador’s cape of a question and he failed to charge.

Did this guy really get a fair shot? He asked what do you like physically.

He got several fair shots. The question he responded with is completely inappropriate. It could have several meanings, as in “what physical characteristics do you like in a man?” (dude, she’s seen your photo so unless you’re faking, she’s already answered that question: potentially you) or “what do you like to do physically with a man?” (I hope I don’t need to point out why this is a fail).

Maybe could you have flirted with him?

Or he with her. If you have to do the guy’s job for him, you’ll likely have to continue to do it.

I just think if you’re gonna reach out, then be ready for a few strikes before the home run.

He got three meaty fastballs, straight over the plate and whiffed at each one. Which is why it’s a strikeout.

There is no “guys job” here. It’s about timing, and this guy was moving too slowly and unclearly. I tend to think that people have far too many “rules” they use to reject others online. The majority seem to think too highly of themselves, and too lowly of others. But I think Moxie was right here. She made the first move. He could have easily said something like “Do you want to get a drink sometime soon?” The fact that he kept wallowing around leaves the door open for too many interpretations. Including that he just was online for the banter. I am not one for rushing dating in general, but I do think this is a classic case of why its so much better to aim for a few emails and then make an ask.

The truth is that many people have these arbitrary rules and guidelines…They don’t actually work. We just think they do.

Of course you can tell if your rules and guidelines, arbitrary or not, are working: are you getting dates and are you happy with the quality of those dates. If the answer is yes, then they’re working; if the answer is no, then they’re not and you need to reexamine them.

I’m about 50/50 on dating women I contact and who contact me. As for the women who contact me, I see no pattern about whether they are in or out of my league, except to say that I’m not often contacted by women who I see as clearly above my league; they’re either in or below.

But I agree completely with Moxie on her approach and don’t think it quick judgment, just appropriate judgment. Whether I’m contacting or replying, no more than 3 rounds of messaging before I start asking for a meet-up, usually within a few days. I’ve been building a list of appropriate bars or coffee shops in various parts of Manhattan so I have a ready suggestion once I learn what part of town she’s in.

And when contacting, I always send a short, customized message based on something in her profile. If she doesn’t have something interesting I can riff on in her profile, she’s probably not worth it anyway. Usually just three sentences, one of which is a question designed to give her something to respond to. I’m just helpful that way, I guess…

I’m not sure that even the meek would want to “inherit” a vagina, since probate can be long. Then again, Jesus said that they would inherit the earth–likely after the rest of us are done with it–but he never actually specified whether the inheritance would be above ground or below.

I think the key was back in her very first sentence – “So, Mr. UserName, what’s our next move?” She said OUR. That gives a sense that there is, if even in the most fledgling sense, an ‘us.’ It says she is willing to be led to the next step. The ONLY correct response from him should either start with “Let’s…” or “How about if we…” To throw it back in her court with ‘ha, well what would you like?’ is SO passive and weak that it makes my skin crawl. And I’m not particularly into dissecting and overanalyzing. But her ‘meaty fastball’ (lol) was SUCH a clear ‘buying signal’ that for him to demur….. just yuck and no. I think Mox handled it perfectly.

I think that Trouble’s experience is interesting and relevant. I used to read her blog (and appreciate it) and it is clear she is a very strong, assertive (and sometimes maybe even aggressive) woman. So the fact that she connected with someone shy or slower, and they are happily married…well, I think there is a lesson there.

I could relate my own experience, which is similar in some ways. Our first date was unbelievable and some of the things he said/did were so wrong in almost every way imaginable. But there was a spark of something, and here we are 16 years later, married for 6 and more in love than ever.

That leads me to a question. It seems from this site that the consensus is that dating is a skill (or set of skills) that is important to be good at. BUT you aren’t looking for someone who is a serial dater, you are looking for someone for a relationship (and possibly more). So IS IT POSSIBLE that some of the people who get disqualified for being bad at dating, having no game, being awkward at first meetings, having trouble setting up the right place to meet, suggesting a Bennigan’s (horrors!) or whatever other faux pas, could actually be GOOD at the deeper parts of a relationship? Is one necessarily connected to the other? In Trouble’s case, and in mine, I would say no.

So THAT is why I think dismissing someone too quickly is possibly disqualifying someone with potential.
Just something to think about.

This is why online dating can become such a huge waste of time for a lot of people. There’s too much dithering and no one wants to put themselves out there. Early on, I wasted time with a lot of these guys too, until I realized we were never going to meet. Even if we finally did, I didn’t want to feel like I’d had to drag him kicking and screaming. I don’t mind an easygoing guy- I find the hard-charging aggressive types wearying- but, I still expect him to be at least as assertive as I am.

I frequently recommend that women take the initiative online. Once I started doing that, I found the quality of my interactions and the frequency of dates went up considerably. By taking the initiative, I don’t mean “chasing.” Let him know you’re interested, and see how he responds. I contacted my husband first, but he reciprocated quickly and enthusiastically. If he hadn’t, I would have moved on.

So many online daters seem to get trapped in endless email/text banter, so it’s best to keep in mind that the goal is to meet in person, and if steps aren’t taken to make that happen fairly quickly, just keep at it until you find someone as interested as you are.

You are right on Amy. And this reflexive contempt & restless delusion that this superficial velvet roping of many feeds a delusion that progress is being made & there always is someone more “perfect”

nobody could blame Moxie for moving on. But it would be worth saying something like “Dude, I found you appealing enough to reach out to, & clearly asked you to follow up & take some initiative. Do so if you like but now, soooo many of us are tired of timid guys or those unable to move forward in real life”.

That would be a reasonable challenge that could wake him up. I can understand if too put off to continue, but it is possible that he reacted with reflexive banter & is not so passive or a game player. Possible.

I could never date from OKC. I had an account there for 2 days and everyone seemed to be wanting to meet up right away and everyone was trying too hard to seem cool. No thanks.

Having that said, I understand why his question put you off. Him asking what you like shows he has no creativity and isn’t interested in putting forth much effort. Bad sign. His question to you about his look I would suspect was an attempt to fish for compliments, hoping that what you like in a man mirrors what he is. In a way, I think trying to meet after 3 messages is way too soon…but maybe I am behind the times since I haven’t dated online in almost 10 years.

Isn’t the point of dating sites like OKC to meet in person? A certain number of messages exchanged, maybe a phone call, should be enough to screen out obviously incompatible people. After that, there’s little to be gained except by meeting in person for a low-key “date.” Which is why coffee or a cocktail is a low-risk way of learning if there is any basis for going forward.

Those guys have to make an effort to try to stand out among all the other guys. If that’s trying too hard to seem cool, that’s the playing field we find ourselves on.

Three or four messages should be enough to meet up. I’m not online to find pen-pals. Yes, things have changed in the last decade.

Say what you will, but you passed judgement too soon and you may have lost out. I just got a new girlfriend, but if I followed your advice, I never would have even met her because she took a little bit more time responding to emails. Its like they say, good things come to those who wait. Also, I dont think that he was necessarily stalling, or hesitant or whatever. Maybe he wanted to get to know a little more about you so he could plan a date he thought you would enjoy more.

I assume that men are communicating with multiple women at any given time.

Maybe, maybe not. I think a more accurate assessment would be to say I assume that men are trying to communicate with multiple women at any given time, at least up until the point where they meet someone they are interested in. Of course, what that may be true, its probably more likely they are communicating with few or no women. I think you overestimate the amount of play the average guy receives.

I assume that men are trying to communicate with multiple women at any given time, at least up until the point where they meet someone they are interested in.
He’ll still be trying even after meeting a woman he’s interested in, because the odds of things working out with any particular person he just met, regardless of how great she might seem at first, are very low.

Of course, what that may be true, its probably more likely they are communicating with few or no women.
That is true, but that is not what one should assume. Even so, one of the truly annoying parts of dating for men is that it’s usually feast or famine; we may go months with no luck at all, find one gal we’re interested in, and all of a sudden dozens of other women will come out of the woodwork. And it would be stupid to ignore all those others or “put them off for later”, because they’ll usually disappear as soon as the first woman does.

Generally, my view of women who message first is that they are of lower value than the ones you have to work for. Completely illogical, but that’s the impression I get. Especially if she’s older, overweight and not so attractive. I generally don’t reply to those, but I can see how some guys with approach anxiety would get an ego boost from these broads.
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Wow oh wow. And yet Dan wonders why he’s Single. lol

The author seems too full of herself. She approached the man. She was interested in him. He did not have sufficient information to be interested in her, except perhaps a photograph and a profile and some lame early messaging about the site itself (as she mentioned), to know whether he should be interested in her.

If you want the man to be interested in you merely based on the superficial, I’m sure there are many of those men. You will think they are assertive, but most of them have merely learned some tricks from other men who advice them on how to get the vagina. You will get what you deserve. Good luck on that.

The guy you rejected was probably the more genuine kind, who wanted to learn more about you before asking you out. He does not live inside your head. He does not know what goes through your head. If you want him to be interested in you, tell him more. If you want him to be attracted to your breasts or whatever other body part men have fetishes for, you will find your right match who will want to screw your photo and hence is eagerly asking your out very early knowing nothing about you. Once you fulfill his need, you are meat.

Yes, people are arbitrary, although they, as you via your whole essay, attempted to rationalize your arbitrary decisions. In a sense, you are damaged by your own inability to accept a feeling of vulnerability.