AuthorTopic: WCDT: 13-17 Dec 2010 (1816-20) (Read 150061 times)

I read through most of that - weird of me. Well, there was no dick-brooms present in the discussion, and I truly missed them. But sure, they would have added to the length of the discussion as well... it's a two-sided weapon, it is.

And after all, it was a few people who got some of it right (according to me), I'll sum up the pieces:

Marten wasn't revealing some hidden truth. He said that either sarcastically, or simply to offend Faye. He was certainly angry, and for sure he was way drunk - and she was the only one in the near.

Faye didn't really react rationally either. It triggered her old habit of punching anyone that gets too near her, be it physically or mentally. Not the long-term thing though, not now. Just a punch, and the matter is settled.

We don't really know what their hands were doing in panel 3, but it don't really matter anyway.

We don't really know just how and where Faye punched him. (Stars usually mean unconscious, but judging from Faye's pose, this is immediately after the punch. Although I'm somewhat troubled by the fact that we don't see the sound of Marten hitting the floor in that panel, I think we should...)

(so far, the "nobody wants to rape a fat chick" fallacy is still holding, knock on wood).

Not just fallacy - outright lie.

Seriously, knockin' on wood along with ya, but yeah, better to be prepared.

I'm gonna second that, being both a fat girl and a survivor of sexual assault. Please learn how to defend yourself. It might save your life.

And I know there's a lot of discussion about how appropriate Faye's reaction was- but I'll tell you that I see it as very appropriate. Not only would this have pissed her off, it must have HURT. Here is her friend, someone she trusted, and he's treating her just as she's always stated she would not want to nor allow herself to be treated. I can also see her forgiving him, but it's going to be a long time before she really trusts him again, if ever. And it's not like she was the most trusting of people to begin with. I see this leading to a trip to her therapist, at least.

EvilDog, I'm having trouble following your argument here. In the first paragraph you seem to shout "J'accuse!" at Faye for somehow giving her loyalties over to Dora, and then you opine that Marten desperately needs alone time and to be apart from everyone. This seems somewhat mutually exclusive--he needs hugs, but GO AWAY.

My apologies if I wasn't clear. It just seems that Dora seems to be getting a lot of sympathy from the others, while Marten has barely gotten a "How are you feeling?" There is a difference between needing to be left alone and to be given some space. Marten most likely needs to be left alone, and needs to be given some space. But at the same time, his friends should feel concern for Marten, but also know when they aren't helping by being up in his face. Sorry if there was some confusion there.

...Well, thank you for the polite response, but I'm left to wonder if you read the rest of my post? It was meant to call to fallacies in the argument you're making as much as it was to ask for clarity, or in other words what you want is to see people worrying about Marten but not interacting with him. Which seems...odd, to me.

Hanners gave Marten his worry hat back but still treated him like a child, admittedly, because of they way Marten explained about how the worry hat worked, and Hanners has slept on that couch on at least two occasions, sitting on it is alright after a scalding shower. Tai just thinks that Marten is missing free coffee and baked goods, and even insulted him before giving him a hug (which is negated but the bad attempt at a nipple joke). Sven? Well, Sven acted like Sven. Veronica invited herself even despite Marten's protests.

Let's deal with this case-by-case:

-Hanners is not treating Marten like a child. She is being worried and fussy over her good friend who's helped her with her anxieties. Hannelore, out of anyone, is the most upset and the most honest about her feelings, out of the whole circle--it's just circumstance that dictated she be around Dora rather than Marten when she was bawling her eyes out because both of them were sad. And her worry about his alcohol-medicating was pretty clearly justified. If one of my friends got a fifth of Hobo and declared his intent to drown his sorrows, I would probably say something along the lines of "that's not a good idea" too.

-Tai gave him a hug and honest comfort when his psyche cracked a little, and other than that, she's not a good enough friend to do much more. I mean, she tried to help him see the lighter side of his bitching, but he wanted to sink himself deeper into Bitter Jerkass Pond, and then lashed out at her in a dickish manner, and he still got a hug.

-Veronica is his Mom, for fuck's sake. I...I don't know what else to stay about that. Of course she's coming out, if only to bring him cookies, hug him tight, and tell him that that girl wasn't good enough for her boy anyhow, it's her loss, there there there. If you have a mother with whom relations are not completely dysfunctional, this should be familiar.

-Sven is....is Sven. Blood's thicker than water, and that he reached out at all made me think well of the guy, because it's hard to be nice to the dude that's making your sister cry.

As for Faye, so ok, she cut her evening with Angus short, but the fact remains that she still spent enough of the evening with him for some heavy petting (enough to lose her bra anyway). Look at when Sven slept with Gina Riversmith. Marten went home and comforted Faye, put an arm around her. Now that Dora and Marten have broken up, Faye has threatened violence, then again, there probably isn't a day where the resident southern belle hasn't threatened someone with violence. But she never asked if he was ok. As far as I can see, no one has asked Marten "If he is alright". It isn't much, but those four words can do more for someone than what the others have done.

This is, as I have said over and over, Faye. She knows he's not all right. That's the reason she wanted to murder Dora--did you think that was to satisfy her sense of honor? No. She knows that he's hurting, but he essentially has told her, like he's told everyone else, that he'll be fine, he can deal with this on his own by moping and sighing and being a general dickface. I think she always intended to come home and give the stupid boy a hug and let him cry, but what has he done? He drank an entire bottle of alcohol, which--and I will wield this particular dickbroom with wild gesticulations and frothing rage until people get it--does not make you truthful, it is a brain poison, it makes you STUPID. And then he acted stupidly and like a fucking jackass towards the one person currently in NoHo who deserves his trust and his absolute honesty.

The problem is not with his friends, the problem is that Marten is not dealing in a healthy manner. If Jeph does not intend to go deeper into Misery Town, I am sure he will get back on his feet, but unfortunately, at the moment he is inviting life to dump on him.

This goes for everyone else on the "poor Marten, give him a break" train.

....

Not even going to touch the argument about the definition of sexual assault, and as for this umpteenth "FAYE IS SO VIOLENT OMG" train of thought, please go TVTropes the definition of "tsundere", recognize the violence is absolutely positively overstated for comedy, and recite the MST3K mantra about a billion times.

Faye didn't really react rationally either. It triggered her old habit of punching anyone that gets too near her, be it physically or mentally. Not the long-term thing though, not now. Just a punch, and the matter is settled.

I wouldn't really say Faye didn't react rationally. I mean, I've been around drunk people before. I've been drunk before. If Marten is drunk enough that he's being that much of a dick to her, then there really isn't much she can simply say to him that will get him off it.

And his advance, though most probably in jest, was definitely not something she could handle. And she shouldn't have to handle things like that, because they shouldn't happen. In the moment, I suspect that what was going through Faye's head was:

"This boy is making a physical advance toward me, it's making me feel uncomfortable, and there is no way that I will be able to say something to him that will make him stop."

The only recourse there is to do something physical. Yes, it might have been better for Marten's physical well being if she had simply pushed him away, but Faye's situation kind of had her backed into a corner, in my opinion.

We can only hope that she did not punch Marten in the head, or if she did, that she did not punch him too hard. Though if this is the darkest this arc will get, as Jeph's tweet suggests, I'm sure we won't have to worry about any Marten-concussions any time soon.

I don't think we'll see concussions. Faye punched a lot more and way harder (it has to be harder to punch a non-drunk person to the ground) and we never saw anything coming near to the realistic consequences of such beatings.

I always felt the punches were overdone for comedic effect, otherwise Marten would never have stayed with her or just kicked her out of his apartment. Seriously, that would have been serious abuse, and their relationship could not have developed that way.

It's so hard for me not to read this with my own biases an past experiences clouding my perceptions, cos I have actually been in Faye's position, with a friend who went off on a drunken tirade after a breakup - although the trigger for the (in his case Bacardi 151 Limón) overdose was also a job loss - and said some wrongful yet subtly 'was he always thinking that?' things to me --and I just laughed my ass off at him. XD;I just couldn't take a thing he said seriously, and I knew he was talking out of anger/hurt/drunkenness/his ass. I just went 'you are so full of shit man! Now c'mon let's talk about this," so I was honestly surprised at Faye's reaction. (Her first reaction, not her second.)

But then it took me a minute to realize that she's still healing and coming out of her own insecurities - the panic attack after her first date with Angus wasn't that long ago, was it - and so her reaction makes a lot more sense if you realize Marten pretty much hit all her '!!!' fight-or-flight triggers - especially the unwanted physical contact.

(Although personally I kind of don't think he was -actually- going in to kiss her [and certainly not grope her] but I think he was just again saying shit to poke the bear, but that's really personal perception.)

However, I really don't think this is going to ruin their relationship, I have a lot of faith that Faye is smarter than that, and more capable of reading every nuance in this situation. She knows Marten's losing his shit, and she knows why that shit is being lost. In fact I bet she could infer that there's probably (in my opinion at least) a lot more behind this rant than just the breakup, which brings me to my next thought:

I think Marten's next arc is going to be all about him -getting his shit together-. Y'know when I was in my twenties, the intentions I had for my life fell apart - I had to drop out of school, I lost my home, lived in a shitty studio apartment, had a dead-end job that made me want to shoot myself, but -I had a stable relationship-. By fucking god, I had a stable relationship! Which, at the time, was much more stable than everybody else's, even tho their personal lives had prospects and futures mine did not. I HAD A BOYFRIEND, WE LIVED TOGETHER LIKE REAL PEOPLE DO, EVERYTHING WAS OK.

This, of course, was a terrible lie (even the stable relationship part, in hindsight, lol.) So I really read a lot of that in Marten's life atm - (maybe) the only thing that made him feel like an actual well-adjusted successful adult member of society is gone. I doubt he's thinking about it like that, but I sure bet his subconscious is.

I really hope that what Jeph has in store for him is a lot of effort put into areas of his life that have been awfully neglected for awhile.

Okay I think my ridiculously-long post hit every point I wanted to hit!

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Our integrity sells for so little, but it's all that we really have. It is the very last inch of us, but within that inch, we are free.

He drank an entire bottle of alcohol, which--and I will wield this particular dickbroom with wild gesticulations and frothing rage until people get it--does not make you truthful, it is a brain poison, it makes you STUPID.

It's my general experience with alcohol that it turns off the "Hey, wait a minute, that's a STUPID idea" center of your brain. This leads to ill-advised drunken actions like fights, hookups, and drunk driving. But when combined with solitude and time, it allows that most hazardous of thought processes - drunk logic. Sure, alcohol can lead you to honestly express opinions you'd rather have kept hidden, but it also allows you to form opinions that in the absence of alcohol you know are stupid. And when you're in Marten's position of having just suffered an emotional trauma, and having been left alone to think about that trauma in silence for the last hour or two, and being a generally somewhat reserved, thoughtful guy already - your brain can come up with some pretty crazy ideas.

Two: Isn't there a saying that goes "sometimes what people take seriously are hilarious, and what people think of as a joke should be taken seriously?" For all you "he was just kidding and drunk!" that's something to ponder.

Of course that could be turned around to those who say "Sexual assault!" "grabbed her crotch with the hand that is far outside the panel" or "I can see stuff happening in 4 still images that totally show that he is trying to grope and force kiss her" people. So, it equals out and we should just say "Let's see what will happen next time, first before jumping to conclusions."

Because Marten did say those "Come on, let's make out." lines more than once earlier in the comics, while not being drunk. As a joke of course. And there is really no telling from those few panels if he was being serious or just sarcastic when he said it, also she punched him out while he was still in mid-sentence. In my opinion he's just bitter/depressed/angry for reasons we all know and being sarcastic at the end there. "Yeah, you couldn't fall in love with me but you fucked that womanizer and the guy who pissed you off every day in COD is your boyfriend now. You REALLY like the assholes. So now I am one too. We should totally make out." That + drunk = looks worse than he might have intended and you know you don't think much about consequences when drunk.

Right. And Faye judged the situation based on how it looked, since I'm guessing (unless Jeph's really going to give us a plot twist later) that Faye is not psychic and cannot read Marten's mind.

1. [edit: I skimmed most of the thread and didn't want to go back for quotes. ]

2. I doubt Martin was joking. As they say, "there's truth in the wine". That said, I don't think Marten is still in love with Faye. I think Marten is feeling inadequate and crappy about his life and Faye just served as another reminder of what he wanted and didn't get. He vented, he was a douche about it, he got punched. I doubt Faye is going to call the authorities or tell anyone else in the social circle, although Faye and Marten will probably have a talk about the incident later. (I hope!)

3. Marten needs to learn how to be single. Its not the same as just happening to be single, it's a way of being fulfilled in your own self, your worth and emotional stability are not dependent on someone else. At the moment I don't think Marten is capable of that, and I kind of hope that MartenMom (Who seems like someone with experience in being a secure single person) can come in to town and help Marten see the value of being single.

4. Where are Steve and Hanners? They should be drinking alongside Marten, commiserating and supporting him, hell, that's what they did when Marten and Dora had a fight! http://questionablecontent.net./view.php?comic=1103

5. I think it's kinda weird that Faye went on a date w/ Angus while Marten is so down. I can see why she wouldn't want to be drinking, but they could have gone bowling or something, anything where you get to vent anger by throwing things around.

One thing to keep in mind is that Marten has been drinking alone while having reason to be depressed for, like, probably hours now since Hanners left. Meanwhile, Faye has been out making out with Angus. That set off my 'shouldn't you be with Marten? He's always been there for you' alarms yesterday and I'm sober and only thought about it for a minute. Poor guy's super drunk and had a long time to build up resentment. 'Why is Faye with Angus and not here' is a question that could reasonably lead a drunk person to reach the conclusions he has. Does that excuse his behavior? No. But really, Faye made out with Angus the whole night the day after an earth-shattering moment for her best friend. I don't know about you guys, but when bad things happen to people, friends are supposed to be there for them, not show up after hours of drinking alone and brooding to receive the brunt of their mood and then play the victim when their friend is mean.

If Faye had punched Marten because he went off on her verbally- telling her all the things he said and worse, I would see why (and probably agree) people think she was being extreme in her reaction. He grabbed (or made a grab for) her. That's not OK, and she did what she felt she needed to do (or reacted instinctually to threat, but I can't blame her for it). I don't like violence myself, but I can empathise with the reation.

*Carefully picks up a dickbroom*I've never held one of these before. It isn't going to... well get all over me, is it? Meh...

So for my

100th POST!!!!!

I figure I'd just like to throw two pennies into the "Drunk Marten Confession Hour" hat.

Q. Did Marten really mean what he said to Faye? Does he actually believe all this deep down?A. No. I really don't think he did. Marten is angry, and bitter, and drunk. As the good Dr. ROFLPWN put so well, Marten is not dealing with his problems well. Can you blame him? This is the second relationship - in a row as far as we know - that Marten has put himself 110% into making a relationship work, and it still failed on him. His go with the flow attitude cracked, and he turned to the booze looking for some small form of comfort. Lying there on that couch he started to think normal drunk thoughts, such as blaming everybody else for your own problems. Hell, if anything he borrowed the idea from Dora, who was initially pissed that Faye hooked up with Sven for basically this exact same reason. Marten didn't mean any of what he said, he was simply drunk and angry and trying to find any possible way to point a finger.

That's all I have to say. Jeph said this is a deep as he's willing to go, so I'm pretty sure we're going to see Veronica showing up shortly to lend Marten a shoulder to cry on.

Warning - while you were typing a new reply has been posted. You may wish to review your post.One of these days, Warning. One of these days

I don't know about you guys, but when bad things happen to people, friends are supposed to be there for them, not show up after hours of drinking alone and brooding to receive the brunt of their mood and then play the victim when their friend is mean.

Okay, except that 1.) Marten pushed Faye away, insisting he'd be fine and that he'd prefer to be alone, and 2.) Faye is not his mother. Her life isn't going to come to a screeching halt because her best friend's love life imploded. She's not going to hover over him like a mother hen after he asked for space and then have him resent her for it.

I think her going out and seeing Angus after was the right thing for her to do. It gave her a chance to decompress after spending the workday with weepy!Dora and weepy!Hanners (before Hanners left to see Marten), and it gave Marten some of the space he asked for. I'm sure she expected him to be in a state when she got home, but we've all been there.

In other words, I guess what I'm trying to say is that I don't think it's fair to pick on Faye for allowing her life to go on despite her adult friend's personal problems, particularly since she's given every indication that she intends to be there for him as much as he needs her.

He grabbed (or made a grab for) her. That's not OK, and she did what she felt she needed to do (or reacted instinctually to threat, but I can't blame her for it). I don't like violence myself, but I can empathise with the reation.

He didn't put his arm around her to make out with her, he put it around her so he wouldn't collapse into a puddle on the floor whilst talking to her. Ill-advised makeout request came later. Of course, the physical proximity made his request that much more threatening, leading to the violence - but I still think that a strategic step to the left (http://www.questionablecontent.net/view.php?comic=873) would have worked just as well.

Okay, except that 1.) Marten pushed Faye away, insisting he'd be fine and that he'd prefer to be alone, and 2.) Faye is not his mother. Her life isn't going to come to a screeching halt because her best friend's love life imploded. She's not going to hover over him like a mother hen after he asked for space and then have him resent her for it.

In other words, I guess what I'm trying to say is that I don't think it's fair to pick on Faye for allowing her life to go on despite her adult friend's personal problems, particularly since she's given every indication that she intends to be there for him as much as he needs her.

While I'll agree that Faye is in no way required to help Marten out, your claim that "Marten pushed Faye away" is simply incorrect. He went to be alone in his room immediately following the breakup, and he asked her not to hold a grudge against Dora. I don't see where he indicated that he wanted Faye to let him drink his sorrows (and pretty much everything else) away by himself. Did Faye have the right to prioritize her interests (making out with Angus) over helping out Marten? Of course. Was it ultimately the best choice for her to make? I really don't think so.

Hitting a drunk dude who can barely stand, let alone defend himself ? Thats like hitting a blind person. Or a cripple. Or a child.

Drunkenness is not an excuse or a free pass, no matter how often Rugby League players and other louts use it in defence of their actions in court in Australia. Unlike the blindness or disablement you apparently regard as comparable conditions, drunkenness is a choice. People who pour alcohol down their own throats until they lose control of themselves are, in my opinion at least, wholly responsible for what they do while drunk. Drunk guys can be very scary to be around, and are potentially extremely dangerous. I utterly reject the very widespread idea that they are somehow entitled to indulgent treatment.

I've been assaulted and I've been a recipient of unwanted advances from drunk friends. They're different situations completely, and the drunk friend clumsily hitting on you is not a bad person.

I would say that they are different only in degree, not in what they are. The drunk guy who thinks he's got a right of feel you up, even after you say no, and the full-on rapist, both are saying "what I want is important and I'm entitled to have it, your feelings don't count". That makes both of them bad people (though we are all bad people to some extent IMHO). The drunk is very much less bad than the rapist, but in the morning, I would still re-evaluate whether I still wanted to be their friend. A lot, for me, would depend on whether they took responsibility for their actions, or tried to cop out with the "I was drunk" excuse.

« Last Edit: 15 Dec 2010, 19:51 by Akima »

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"I would rather have questions that can't be answered, than answers that can't be questioned." Richard Feynman

I really feel that a lot of people in this topic are equating 'hitting on a girl' with 'rapist'. As has been pointed out, Marten was leaning on Faye originally so he wouldn't fall down, and just sort of stayed there through the rest of what he said. I refuse to believe A) that he would go for a grab on Faye, it's an awkwardly drawn angle and B) if he did, that Jeph would make it in any way debatable. With that in mind, it's pretty much 'I helped you out, now make out with me'. That isn't sexual assault/harassment. That's a drunk dude being drunk. If that was sexual assault/harassment, what Dora did to Marten when she first kissed him was sexual assault/harassment because she forced it on him as a surprise. Men would never be allowed to say anything in your world.

I think I'm starting to like New Marten. He still got his drunk ass knocked out, but he's venting finally. Bet that one was building up for a loooooong god damn time. Totally all true. Faye spilled her guts and then started making out with every boy that wasn't Marten or Steve. THAT IS A DICK MOVE! You cannot claim it isn't. Eat an umbrella stand's worth of dickbrooms, it is a dick move.

Marten needs to stay like this after he sobers up. By god, the fury that'll come if he and Dora just wind up together after a few simple therapy sessions, though. He needs to be more open, he needs to be honest, and he needs to be single for awhile.

A few years ago, a friend of mine went through a drawn-out situation at his work that mirrored the situation we see here with Marten and Faye, at least in how the characters are viewed by people on the outside of a given situation. It has nothing to do with drinking or sex though, so it's not quite as fun, but bear with me anyway. There's a point on the other side of this.

So my friend was working as a security guard at a fairly major corporate headquarters as a college job. He's the kind of guy who you'd trust with anything in your life: watching your house while you're on vacation, getting your mail, watching your kids, driving you to the hospital as your aorta tears, and so on. He's the most trustworthy, responsible person I've ever known. Anyways, he was on time to his job without fail, always in full, perfectly cleaned and ironed uniform, ready to go, and never got so much as a "Very Good" on a performance review. The person who would relieve him at midnight, however, was a walking, talking, 175-pound sack of worthless shit. He'd ROUTINELY be 1-2 hours late for his shift with no warning call, would often show up out of uniform (one time he came in wearing his shirt that had a huge ketchup stain on it, sweatpants, and ONE FLIP-FLOP.) I swear to God I'm not making any of this up.

It took this stumblefuck mess of a man being FOUR HOURS LATE to his job on multiple occasions before the bosses gave him so much as a verbal warning, and then after that, no follow-up whatsoever. In contrast, my friend got caught in traffic ONE TIME, resulting in him being a whopping fifteen minutes late. For this transgression, he was called into a meeting and threatened with termination, even though it was his first incident and he called ahead to give fair warning. The reasoning given for the much harsher reaction was that "the 4-12 shift is more important than the 12-8 shift, because you deal directly with the client and your relief doesn't."

So, to sum up:

1) Punctual, professional, excellent worker is fifteen minutes late one time = job threatened.2) A completely unprofessional, chronically late, irresponsible jackass is late almost every night = nothing but a "talking-to."

Here's how this relates to the current story: Marten represents my friend: kind, good to the core, never steps on anyone's toes, helps those in need, and so on. He crosses the line ONCE and others come down on him with the force of God for his transgression. There is to be no forgiveness, and any metaphorical (or literal) kick to the teeth is "justified." His colleague is represented by the remainder of the cast: they're all completely messed up in one way or another, and yet nobody gets too upset when they do something wrong, despite it being a common occurrence. It's brushed off as, "well, that's Faye" or, "well, they're getting better at controlling their rage" or something like that.

Why is that? Why do the "good guys" get shit on so much harder when they screw up, no matter how rarely it happens?

Personally, I agree full heartedly with Marten's reaction. He should get to be a dick. Not saying it was at the right time, but for once he's finally able to strike back. I mean look at Faye, if not for Marten meeting her, she would have been the same chick from the beginning not even close to being as normal as she is now. She says to him, "I get your upset and your drunk, but you're being a dick." Fact is, despite the fact that he is upset and drunk, he's right about everything he is saying. No matter how ugly or slurred it comes out. He got her out of her shell. He gives and gives, and people take him for granted. But when he needs to take something, he gets slapped away without a single thought otherwise.

I've been in the same boat, not in the same circumstances, but definitely in his position. Should he have acted in this way? No. Should he have gotten this drunk? Of course not. But its how he's doing it. Faye isn't entirely wrong with how she acted, but she ain't completely right if you see my point.

Also, I've done this before. The whole drown your sorrows thing. Truth be told, he's gonna regret it in the morning. I've done so almost every time it's happened to me.

@Armadillo: Thank you, this actually made my point much better. I've been "Marten" in that situation many times. It sucks and it isn't fair at all. Hopefully Marten can continue this and be able to unleash his fury for once. He's a good person, but now we get to see the dark side.

It's the expectation. Set a standard, and a deviation from it will be noticed. It isn't fair, but it is obvious that being late five minutes for the first time in your life attracts more attention than being an hour late like always. That doesn't excuse the reaction, of course - even if you notice a bad exception more than a bad routine, the former should be dealt with less harshly than the latter.

I haven't followed all ten pages of this topic, so I haven't seen the "force of God" reaction. My view is that his being drunk and acting like a dick is excusable since it is a rare exception, and under exceptional circumstances, but he is still drunk and acting like a dick. For once in all these years, Faye was right to clock him, especially before he had time to embarrass himself even more.

<snip>My friend said that she very deliberately STOPPED testing for belts (judo IIRC) after a certain level precisely BECAUSE if she stayed below a certain registered level of proficiency, she would not be held as responsible for excessive violence than she would be if she actually got all the way up to black belt. (I don't know if the bit about needing to register herself as a deadly weapon was literal or hyperbole.)

I knew a guy who was legally required to inform someone of his level of proficiency in I-forget-which-martial-art (I think it may have been Muay Thai) before he could lay a hand on them. He got laughed at for warning someone once, and then never again.

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You know, they tell you, "Never hit a man with a closed fist," but it is, on occasion, hilarious.

I think I'm starting to like New Marten. He still got his drunk ass knocked out, but he's venting finally. Bet that one was building up for a loooooong god damn time. Totally all true. Faye spilled her guts and then started making out with every boy that wasn't Marten or Steve. THAT IS A DICK MOVE! You cannot claim it isn't. Eat an umbrella stand's worth of dickbrooms, it is a dick move.

The hell?

Funny, I seem to remember Faye repeatedly telling Marten it wasn't going to happen even before The Talk, then during The Talk telling him not to wait for her, and then shortly (almost immediately actually) after The Talk, Marten started dating Dora. It wasn't until a little while after that that Faye ended up having her thing with Sven, which took her as much by surprise as anyone else. After that blew up in her face, I seem to recall her still having serious misgivings for quite a stretch of time before she agreed to start seeing Angus, and that was pretty stop and go for a while until they got a handle on things. Of course, through all of this, Marten was still with Dora.

So please, please tell me: at what point did Faye start making out with every boy that wasn't Marten or Steve? More importantly, at what point did she commit herself solely to Marten once her problems were dealt with? When the hell did Faye make any sort of promise to Marten at all?

And OF COURSE it was all Marten that helped her work through her problems. Therapy? Pfft. The whole thing with Sven teaching her important life lessons? Pish tosh. Clearly, it was all Marten's doing.

That was some grade-A slut-shaming and entitlement you had going there, though. After all, everyone knows that every girl is supposed to just pine after the guy who originally declared his feelings for her regardless of his relationship status and never move on.

A few years ago, a friend of mine went through a drawn-out situation at his work that mirrored the situation we see here with Marten and Faye, at least in how the characters are viewed by people on the outside of a given situation. It has nothing to do with drinking or sex though, so it's not quite as fun, but bear with me anyway. There's a point on the other side of this.

So my friend was working as a security guard at a fairly major corporate headquarters as a college job. He's the kind of guy who you'd trust with anything in your life: watching your house while you're on vacation, getting your mail, watching your kids, driving you to the hospital as your aorta tears, and so on. He's the most trustworthy, responsible person I've ever known. Anyways, he was on time to his job without fail, always in full, perfectly cleaned and ironed uniform, ready to go, and never got so much as a "Very Good" on a performance review. The person who would relieve him at midnight, however, was a walking, talking, 175-pound sack of worthless shit. He'd ROUTINELY be 1-2 hours late for his shift with no warning call, would often show up out of uniform (one time he came in wearing his shirt that had a huge ketchup stain on it, sweatpants, and ONE FLIP-FLOP.) I swear to God I'm not making any of this up.

It took this stumblefuck mess of a man being FOUR HOURS LATE to his job on multiple occasions before the bosses gave him so much as a verbal warning, and then after that, no follow-up whatsoever. In contrast, my friend got caught in traffic ONE TIME, resulting in him being a whopping fifteen minutes late. For this transgression, he was called into a meeting and threatened with termination, even though it was his first incident and he called ahead to give fair warning. The reasoning given for the much harsher reaction was that "the 4-12 shift is more important than the 12-8 shift, because you deal directly with the client and your relief doesn't."

So, to sum up:

1) Punctual, professional, excellent worker is fifteen minutes late one time = job threatened.2) A completely unprofessional, chronically late, irresponsible jackass is late almost every night = nothing but a "talking-to."

Here's how this relates to the current story: Marten represents my friend: kind, good to the core, never steps on anyone's toes, helps those in need, and so on. He crosses the line ONCE and others come down on him with the force of God for his transgression. There is to be no forgiveness, and any metaphorical (or literal) kick to the teeth is "justified." His colleague is represented by the remainder of the cast: they're all completely messed up in one way or another, and yet nobody gets too upset when they do something wrong, despite it being a common occurrence. It's brushed off as, "well, that's Faye" or, "well, they're getting better at controlling their rage" or something like that.

Why is that? Why do the "good guys" get shit on so much harder when they screw up, no matter how rarely it happens?

Because competency is its own punishment. And so is kindness.

People may like you for being competent, kind, and a host of other positive qualities....

But liking someone and respecting them are two entirely different things.

Very few people will respect you if you keep setting yourself up to be basically a doormat. Sure they may like you for being so nice and helpful, but way down deep, you are just a convenience to them because you never enforced respect. This is what happens when you are so generous that it becomes appeasement behavior. You send the message that you don't have to be respected. Because gosh darn it, you are such a nice guy no one has to respect you in order for you to be nice!

And then when you have the temerity (translation: self respect) to finally bite back when getting stepped on, or just plain screw up, or in any other way just be plain inconvenient....

They of course react badly. You disturbed their calm, because it wasn't normal expected convenient behavior from you.

I don't get where this whole "Marten has a right to be a dick" thing is coming from. Is his bad behavior understandable in light of his depression and drunken stupor? Possibly. But being understandable does not equate being justified. He was being a shithead. Fay made it abundantly clear she was not interested. HE basically said "You know you want it" and tried to force a kiss on a woman (a friend no less) who made it perfectly clear she wasn't interested. Claiming he had the right to do that jsut because his love life fell apart is BS. Akima is right, drunk guys scary and being drunk does not excuse shitty behavior. I say this having done shitty things myself while drunk.

That said, I don't think this dooms Marten as a person, but to say he has the right to act like this goes too far in the other direction.

I don't think too many people are saying he has a "right" to behave like he did, but instead that his body of work has to be taken into consideration before condemning him to eternal hellfire. He's hammered out of his mind, depressed to all hell, and his life is a giant ball of stress right now, most of it not self-inflicted. All of these situations are what we call "extenuating circumstances," and have to be factored in when passing judgment. Again, not that he has a "right" to behave like a selfish jackass, but seeing as how this is literally the first time we've seen it happen in all the time we've known these characters, I think he can be allowed to slide on this one, with a caveat of "don't let it happen again."

Sort of off topic, but-Why is it that as soon as trouble comes, these characters reach for alcohol? Is this common for 20 somethings? I do know people like this, but they are the exception, not the norm.

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We all have a cross we must bear.... as a blunt object to bludgeon others with. Purinpuff

Sort of off topic, but-Why is it that as soon as trouble comes, these characters reach for alcohol? Is this common for 20 somethings? I do know people like this, but they are the exception, not the norm.

When I was in my early 20s, it was an easy out for me. I know I wasn't the only one among my friends.

But yeah, it is kind of weird that they're still doing this, especially in light of all the hullaballoo over Faye's drinking problem earlier on.

With that in mind, it's pretty much 'I helped you out, now make out with me'. That isn't sexual assault/harassment.

Yes. Yes, that is, in fact, sexual harassment. It's probably one of the best examples of sexual harassment you could have given.

Gotcha. A guy who tells a girl and says 'lets make out' deserves to be beaten and then arrested. A dude who has had a crush on a girl for a long time and is alone with her, if he leans in for a kiss, she should scream 'RAPE' and call the police. If a guy says 'aw, come on' to a girl, he's a criminal who should be beaten because there's no telling how far he might go! Extenuating circumstances and past experiences with the person be damned, Marten is basically a rapist now.

With that in mind, it's pretty much 'I helped you out, now make out with me'. That isn't sexual assault/harassment.

Yes. Yes, that is, in fact, sexual harassment. It's probably one of the best examples of sexual harassment you could have given.

Gotcha. A guy who tells a girl and says 'lets make out' deserves to be beaten and then arrested. A dude who has had a crush on a girl for a long time and is alone with her, if he leans in for a kiss, she should scream 'RAPE' and call the police. If a guy says 'aw, come on' to a girl, he's a criminal who should be beaten because there's no telling how far he might go! Extenuating circumstances and past experiences with the person be damned, Marten is basically a rapist now.

I'm pretty sure that's absolutely nothing like what I said. Sexual harassment =/= rape, dude, and I don't recall saying anything about Marten being arrested, because that would be asinine. Thanks for putting words in my mouth though!

ETA: Coming on to a girl isn't automatically sexual harassment. Pushing the issue after she's clearly said no? That is. And it's STILL not rape.

With that in mind, it's pretty much 'I helped you out, now make out with me'. That isn't sexual assault/harassment.

Yes. Yes, that is, in fact, sexual harassment. It's probably one of the best examples of sexual harassment you could have given.

Gotcha. A guy who tells a girl and says 'lets make out' deserves to be beaten and then arrested. A dude who has had a crush on a girl for a long time and is alone with her, if he leans in for a kiss, she should scream 'RAPE' and call the police. If a guy says 'aw, come on' to a girl, he's a criminal who should be beaten because there's no telling how far he might go! Extenuating circumstances and past experiences with the person be damned, Marten is basically a rapist now.

I'm pretty sure that's absolutely nothing like what I said. Sexual harassment =/= rape, dude, and I don't recall saying anything about Marten being arrested, because that would be asinine. Thanks for putting words in my mouth though!

ETA: Coming on to a girl isn't automatically sexual harassment. Pushing the issue after she's clearly said no? That is. And it's STILL not rape.

Sorry, sexual harassment is a crime so I sort of assumed you'd prefer it be dealt with similarly to other crimes. My fault that you used the wrong term for it, I guess. And reread the comic. Faye never says no to Martens advance. She says 'you're being a jerk', he says 'we should make out' and then she punches him out. I think you imagined the intervening panels where Faye says 'I don't want to make out' and then Marten forces himself on her, because those aren't there.

With that in mind, it's pretty much 'I helped you out, now make out with me'. That isn't sexual assault/harassment.

Yes. Yes, that is, in fact, sexual harassment. It's probably one of the best examples of sexual harassment you could have given.

Gotcha. A guy who tells a girl and says 'lets make out' deserves to be beaten and then arrested. A dude who has had a crush on a girl for a long time and is alone with her, if he leans in for a kiss, she should scream 'RAPE' and call the police. If a guy says 'aw, come on' to a girl, he's a criminal who should be beaten because there's no telling how far he might go! Extenuating circumstances and past experiences with the person be damned, Marten is basically a rapist now.

I'm pretty sure that's absolutely nothing like what I said. Sexual harassment =/= rape, dude, and I don't recall saying anything about Marten being arrested, because that would be asinine. Thanks for putting words in my mouth though!

ETA: Coming on to a girl isn't automatically sexual harassment. Pushing the issue after she's clearly said no? That is. And it's STILL not rape.

Sorry, sexual harassment is a crime so I sort of assumed you'd prefer it be dealt with similarly to other crimes. My fault that you used the wrong term for it, I guess. And reread the comic. Faye never says no to Martens advance. She says 'you're being a jerk', he says 'we should make out' and then she punches him out. I think you imagined the intervening panels where Faye says 'I don't want to make out' and then Marten forces himself on her, because those aren't there.

Really? Because "You're being a jerk" totally screams "Hey let's get to hot makeouts". She's also told him no in the past and is currently dating someone. The word "no" doesn't always have to be used for it to be apparent.

I also didn't say he was forcing himself on her; I said he was being a pushy douche. (Actually, I don't think I used the word douche, but I definitely said pushy.) She's physically pushing him away from her and he's STILL asking for something she's made pretty clear both in the past and from her current behavior that she's not interested in. That? That's harassment. He's her friend and I'm sure she'll take the drunkenness into consideration in the morning, but it's still harassment. I'm sorry if this is a difficult concept for you or if for some reason you're taking this personally, but it is what it is. Marten was acting like an entitled, pushy dickwad and, by the time Faye decked him, had started harassing her. It might have been mild to you, but you really can't call it anything but harassment.

I really feel that a lot of people in this topic are equating 'hitting on a girl' with 'rapist'. As has been pointed out, Marten was leaning on Faye originally so he wouldn't fall down, and just sort of stayed there through the rest of what he said. I refuse to believe A) that he would go for a grab on Faye, it's an awkwardly drawn angle and B) if he did, that Jeph would make it in any way debatable. With that in mind, it's pretty much 'I helped you out, now make out with me'. That isn't sexual assault/harassment. That's a drunk dude being drunk. If that was sexual assault/harassment, what Dora did to Marten when she first kissed him was sexual assault/harassment because she forced it on him as a surprise. Men would never be allowed to say anything in your world.

There is a difference between "hitting on" a girl, and subjecting her to a drunken pawing, even after she's made it clear that it's not welcome. Drunkenness does not give anyone a license to be a dick, or to escape responsibility for their words and actions. Even if Marten was only leaning on Faye for support in Panel 2, he was not in the same position in Panel 3. Faye was pushing him away, and he was no longer leaning any weight on her. A guy doesn't have to go for a "grab" to step over the line, just not stop when he's asked to, and Faye's push away, facial expression, and "you're being a dick" amount to a clear Red Light.

I don't demand that a guy "not say anything" in my world, as you put it, but I do insist that he stop "hitting on" me when I make it clear that his approach is unwelcome.

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"I would rather have questions that can't be answered, than answers that can't be questioned." Richard Feynman

Marten kind of had Faye with the 'you like jerks though' line, though. Faye had arguments with Sven and then had sex with him. She also told Sven on multiple occasions that they'd never have anything happen, but it still did. Yet Marten being a jerk and being told on previous occasions that it can't happen = NO. That's absurd. Marten was wrong, but all makes a kind of sense to the point that I find it hard to condemn the guy. It's not like he forced anything on her. He raised the idea and got punched out. Even if he was going to, Faye reacted prior to the harassment.

Marten kind of had Faye with the 'you like jerks though' line, though.

No. No, he didn't. Even if it were true that Faye liked jerks (which as far as I can tell, the only one who qualifies for that is Sven), that still doesn't excuse his behavior. It doesn't make her open game for any old jerk that walks into her life because, you know, she likes jerks (which I don't think she does).

Quote from: Razgriz

Faye had arguments with Sven and then had sex with him. She also told Sven on multiple occasions that they'd never have anything happen, but it still did. Yet Marten being a jerk and being told it can't happen = NO. That's absurd. Marten was wrong, but all makes a kind of sense to the point that I find it hard to condemn the guy. It's not like he forced anything on her. He raised the idea and got punched out. Even if he was going to, Faye reacted prior to the harassment.

Sven was not her friend. Sven was not someone she trusted. Marten is not Sven. Marten is her best friend. Marten promised that things could remain platonic - it's there, in one of the linked comics earlier on, shortly after the talk.

Even if none of those things are true, you don't get to drag someone's sexual past up and use it to justify your assholishness in the present.

Sorry, sexual harassment is a crime so I sort of assumed you'd prefer it be dealt with similarly to other crimes. My fault that you used the wrong term for it, I guess. And reread the comic. Faye never says no to Martens advance. She says 'you're being a jerk', he says 'we should make out' and then she punches him out. I think you imagined the intervening panels where Faye says 'I don't want to make out' and then Marten forces himself on her, because those aren't there.

At this point, it is sexual harassment and if Faye DID care to press the issue, she could probably get some money, or Marten forced into counseling, or something. (All I could find about Massachusetts law involved harassment in the workplace, which this isn't.) The fact that they're roommates would almost certainly work against her, and if Dora wanted to be vindictive the thing about her dumping Marten because she believed he still wanted Faye could be brought into play. In this case, Faye is the victim and I think she recognizes the extreme circumstances and that Marten would not normally act like this. She'll let this drop with a "don't do that again" and/or "how much of what you said last night was you, and how much was the alcohol, and don't fucking lie to me" conversation. If the victim has no interest in pursuing the crime and has the ability to make that decision (not, y'know, DEAD or something), why waste law enforcement's time with it?

Marten kind of had Faye with the 'you like jerks though' line, though. Faye had arguments with Sven and then had sex with him. She also told Sven on multiple occasions that they'd never have anything happen, but it still did. Yet Marten being a jerk and being told on previous occasions that it can't happen = NO. That's absurd. Marten was wrong, but all makes a kind of sense to the point that I find it hard to condemn the guy. It's not like he forced anything on her. He raised the idea and got punched out. Even if he was going to, Faye reacted prior to the harassment.

But by the simple fact that Marten was imlying she "owed him", it does fall under the realm of harassment. I can see where you're coming from though Razgriz; I don't want to be mad at Marten either. And I can say for sure that this will blow over, that while Marten isn't entitled to act like a jerk, the extenuating circumstances and his past history will exonorate him eventually. I'm confident that Faye will chalk this up to the alcohol and the stress and forgive him, and maybe even rib him about it in the future. "Hurr durr, I'm drunk Faye! Let's make out! Hurr Hurr!"

And as for Marten's intentions? I dunno, I kind of like the "self-fulfilling prophecy" theory someone mentioned. (sorry I forget who!) But I can see it being something along the lines of "Making the criminal fit the crime."

But then again, for all we can tell, Marten may have just been trying to be a dick. He's been known to get snarky on occassion and some liquid libation lubricant may have loosened his tongue too much. I do feel for the guy, I do. Many many of us have said things under the influence that seemed fine and rational at the time that turned out to be competely over the line, and now Marten has to deal with said consequences.

But then again, for all we can tell, Marten may have just been trying to be a dick. He's been known to get snarky on occassion and some liquid libation lubricant may have loosened his tongue too much. I do feel for the guy, I do. Many many of us have said things under the influence that seemed fine and rational at the time that turned out to be competely over the line, and now Marten has to deal with said consequences.

I could see that. Lashing out at the first person available that isn't Hannelore (because really, I don't think he could do it to her) when he's tongue's nice and loosened and he's a hurtin' puppy? Makes sense to me.

This is absolutely going to be a flash-in-the-pan, try-it-again-and-i'll-knock-out-your-teeth, but-how-are-you-doing-now-sweetheart? moment.

...Putting dashes between words instead of spaces is tougher than I thought.