I probably am a bit overly vocal on this topic, but I see people asking for something like "deep, thought provoking JRPGs" and I can't help but think they really need to look elsewhere, even if it's just other game genres.

If what they want is a JRPG, then no, they can't look elsewhere.

Maybe they do want an example of a JRPG that's more mentally stimulating in narrative. Or they just want a mentally stimulating narrative period, in which case they DO need to look elsewhere, in either case the only compelling example I can think of in recent years is NieR.

I probably am a bit overly vocal on this topic, but I see people asking for something like "deep, thought provoking JRPGs" and I can't help but think they really need to look elsewhere, even if it's just other game genres.

If what they want is a JRPG, then no, they can't look elsewhere.

Then they'll need to settle for looking a long time; deep, thought provoking JRPGs are few and far between.

The problem, Eusis, is that you're trying to tell other people how they should be spending their time. Specifically, you're not just making a recommendation, you're telling them how they are spending their time is wrong. You also seem incapable of understanding that people who play games with cruddy game play because they enjoy the story are still enjoying playing the game! It is worth their time, even it's not worth yours.

Is there anything inherently wrong if they're enjoying themselves? No, but depending on what they want they may be doing themselves a disservice if they pay too little attention to other forms of media that cover the subject matter or themes that they really want to see, especially in cases of games like Xenogears or Xenosaga where there aren't many alternatives within video games, and the alternatives outside (like Dune) generally do a much better job. However if they're really not enjoying themselves or getting anything from actually playing the game outside of when story pops up, perhaps even getting deeply frustrated by the game, then I'd say there probably is something wrong with how they're spending their time, though I have to admit most people aren't THAT masochistic anyway. That's more like why you don't want to bother playing Metal Gear Solid though, whereas someone playing Drakengard but not minding the gameplay is really in the same position as I am for something like NieR or Killer7; I know for some people those games are utterly unacceptable to play through too.

I probably am a bit overly vocal on this topic, but I see people asking for something like "deep, thought provoking JRPGs" and I can't help but think they really need to look elsewhere, even if it's just other game genres.

I think that in cases of Xenogears or Xenosaga it isn't the ideas behind them that were the problem but the direction that they received. In Gear's case it was a victim of the designer's unbridled ambition and the fact that he forgot to establish a fanbase and a demand to his grand dream. In Saga's case it was a victim of the developer wanting to make a 3 part game into 6 parts. Basically one of the first rules to video game narratives should be "Never make a game that doesn't fully address the conflict at hand.". In fact if you look at Dune versus Xenogears and the first Xenosaga game, the example of the first case would be like if the Dune series had started on Heretics, spent the first half of the book covering Duncan and Sheeba (or something close to that as I forget her name but she was the one girl on Arrakis who could communicate to the worms or something), spent the second half covering Miles', the Bene Gesserit sister's/Miles' daughter's (or was it grandaughter)/Duncan's escape from the initial onslaught of the invasion, and the last ten pages covering everything else in a wall of bullet points. The second example would be cutting the first Dune book in half and having the events of the second half take place in the second book. The tl;dr of this is that the core ideas aren't bad, just the direction used in bringing them to the medium.

Additionally, I have no fucking clue what the fuck you are trying to say about Drakengard. Drakengard was a terrible game but with such a unique narrative and ascetic that it ends up being worth an LP watch because seriously, nevermind the mindnumbing low quality Dynasty Warriors cloned gameplay, that final boss fight was an utterly ridiculous rhythm game in a game that's not particularly designed for an utterly ridiculous rhythm game and was utterly ridiculous and near impossible to beat even with cheating.

Additionally, I have no fucking clue what the fuck you are trying to say about Drakengard. Drakengard was a terrible game but with such a unique narrative and ascetic that it ends up being worth an LP watch because seriously, nevermind the mindnumbing low quality Dynasty Warriors cloned gameplay, that final boss fight was an utterly ridiculous rhythm game in a game that's not particularly designed for an utterly ridiculous rhythm game and was utterly ridiculous and near impossible to beat even with cheating.

That was what I was roughly what I was saying in the first place! I was just pointing out that if someone managed to tolerate/enjoy the game then more power to them, it's just not a good idea to be bothering to play through it if you're NOT one of those people, certainly not through all the endings anyway.

And yeah, your points with the Xeno games summed up one of their bigger problems, not being able to properly create a whole narrative until it came time to wrap it all up.

Maybe they do want an example of a JRPG that's more mentally stimulating in narrative. Or they just want a mentally stimulating narrative period, in which case they DO need to look elsewhere, in either case the only compelling example I can think of in recent years is NieR.

I think the leap you're trying to make is absurd. Why would somebody ask for a recommendation for a JRPG when what the really want is a movie or book? By asking for a JRPG they've pretty much made the whole "mentally stimulating' qualifier relative to the medium (i.e. video games). I do agree that in recent years story in RPGs has been quite lacking, but there is still plenty of good recommendations.

IF someone really just wants a deep, intellectual story first and foremost then no, it really isn't an absurd jump given that story is what books and (to a lesser degree) movies specialize in, especially since some may simply have tunnel vision in this regard and are staying in a comfort zone. You twisted my words there somewhat anyway, given that elsewhere can just mean other game genres if it's an interactive experience they want seeing as how RPGs definitely don't have the monopoly on storytelling they once had.

But then this is branching off even more off of what's more or less a throw away statement, something like an engaging story is an entirely different matter anyway.

Edit: Added a line, and since "great stories" and "deep stories" aren't always one and the same so I switched that word out.

IF someone really just wants a deep, intellectual story first and foremost then no, it really isn't an absurd jump given that story is what books and (to a lesser degree) movies specialize in, especially since some may simply have tunnel vision in this regard and are staying in a comfort zone. You twisted my words there somewhat anyway, given that elsewhere can just mean other game genres if it's an interactive experience they want seeing as how RPGs definitely don't have the monopoly on storytelling they once had.

Yes it is absurd because the person in question is asking for a recommendation for a video game. Specifically a JRPG. The question is conditioned on the medium and the genre. It doesn't matter if a book or a movie has a better story BECAUSE THEY ARE NOT VIDEO GAMES. In case you didn't notice, video games tell stories in different ways than books and movies. Just like books don't tell stories in the same way movies do. I watch a lot of movies, read a lot of books, and play a lot of video games. When I'm in the mood for a video game with a good story (dare I say a JRPG with a good story!) I don't need some bozo telling me I should be spending my time doing something else. Even though you are directing your statements directly at me, you are being that bozo.

Let's get back on track here. I am a big fan of a good story in a game, I will even put myself through some less than stellar gameplay, as long as I'm digging the narrative. Yes, despite all that was wrong with XS II, I played through it. That being said, I think what Eusis was commenting on is that the JRPGs just aren't packing strong stories these days, and if you're really looking for a standout story, maybe video games aren't the best medium. There are some great JRPGs in the PS2 era that I have no doubt would be worth your time. I really enjoyed the Suikoden games, because the story took me on such a great journey - I love being surprised and blindsided.

Logged

"We're all lying in the gutter, but some of us are looking at the stars" -Oscar Wilde

"To be a star, you must shine your own light, follow your own path, and don't worry about the darkness, for that is when the stars shine brightest."

The poster who was actually doing the asking and Eusis settled this how many posts ago, and you're STILL dragging it out because you don't like a suggestion that wasn't aimed at you to begin with? And calling him names? Knock it off.

Let's get back on track here. I am a big fan of a good story in a game, I will even put myself through some less than stellar gameplay, as long as I'm digging the narrative. Yes, despite all that was wrong with XS II, I played through it. That being said, I think what Eusis was commenting on is that the JRPGs just aren't packing strong stories these days, and if you're really looking for a standout story, maybe video games aren't the best medium. There are some great JRPGs in the PS2 era that I have no doubt would be worth your time. I really enjoyed the Suikoden games, because the story took me on such a great journey - I love being surprised and blindsided.

Suikoden really took me by surprise. It's been less than a year since I actually played the first one, I posted about it back in the last Game Journal. I really wasn't expecting a lot from it, but I had nothing else to play at the time and I fell in love. I don't know if I loved it so much BECAUSE it took me by surprise, or it is just that good. I'm going for just that good, I've played every one bar 3 now. For such a large cast they give everyone a decent personality. Kudos to them.

Let's get back on track here. I am a big fan of a good story in a game, I will even put myself through some less than stellar gameplay, as long as I'm digging the narrative. Yes, despite all that was wrong with XS II, I played through it. That being said, I think what Eusis was commenting on is that the JRPGs just aren't packing strong stories these days, and if you're really looking for a standout story, maybe video games aren't the best medium. There are some great JRPGs in the PS2 era that I have no doubt would be worth your time. I really enjoyed the Suikoden games, because the story took me on such a great journey - I love being surprised and blindsided.

Suikoden really took me by surprise. It's been less than a year since I actually played the first one, I posted about it back in the last Game Journal. I really wasn't expecting a lot from it, but I had nothing else to play at the time and I fell in love. I don't know if I loved it so much BECAUSE it took me by surprise, or it is just that good. I'm going for just that good, I've played every one bar 3 now. For such a large cast they give everyone a decent personality. Kudos to them.

Valkyria Chronicles did the same thing to me, for various reasons the game had slipped under the radar for me and I had little expectations...and what a really pleasant surprise the entire game turned out to be!

Tales of's (Symphonia up), Trails in the Sky, Radiant Historia, Personas, Star Ocean (plot is in the negatives though), Suikodens (surprisingly), Valk Profile, Nier, um what else, the FF's if you havent played one by now. I think these are all considerably deep. Hell, sometimes the one saving grace of a poor plot comes in the form of it's characters.

Tales of's (Symphonia up), Trails in the Sky, Radiant Historia, Personas, Star Ocean (plot is in the negatives though), Suikodens (surprisingly), Valk Profile, Nier, um what else, the FF's if you havent played one by now. I think these are all considerably deep. Hell, sometimes the one saving grace of a poor plot comes in the form of it's characters.

So far the only SO character I found even remotely interesting is Maria. Also when you say Symphonia up do you mean all the games between Symphonia and the latest one (including such gems as Legendia and two of the three DS games) or just the ones done by the Symphonia team?

The poster who was actually doing the asking and Eusis settled this how many posts ago, and you're STILL dragging it out because you don't like a suggestion that wasn't aimed at you to begin with? And calling him names? Knock it off.

Sorry, I didn't notice. Just thought it was a stupid suggestion and when I explained why I just kept getting the same response after same response. I actually thought I could explain it better. Also, it takes 2 to drag it out (with you, 3).