One serving a day of oatmeal or buckwheat might be fine, but the consumption of too many grains causes an eventual prolonged spike in blood sugar (symptoms of pre-diabetes) and subsequent body fat gain. Mind you, I am not saying this leads necessarily to obesity, but it definitely leads to having more body fat than muscle. A condition known as being 'skinny fat'. I also think humans need around 50-60 grams of healthy fat a day for the brain to function normally. A spoon of olive oil, or quarter cup of coconut milk would not kill anybody. And several studies indicate that it would actually be beneficial.

Jack Norris is a cofounder of vegan outreach who went back to school a number of years ago to study nutrition to specifically research and speak on vegan nutrition issues. He is a Registered Dietitian (RD) who regularly reads nutrition journals and often blogs about recent findings.

Would it be offensive to you if I asked what your education is in and what your field is?

Jack Norris is a cofounder of vegan outreach who went back to school a number of years ago to study nutrition to specifically research and speak on vegan nutrition issues. He is a Registered Dietitian (RD) who regularly reads nutrition journals and often blogs about recent findings.

Would it be offensive to you if I asked what your education is in and what your field is?

Jack Norris is a cofounder of vegan outreach who went back to school a number of years ago to study nutrition to specifically research and speak on vegan nutrition issues. He is a Registered Dietitian (RD) who regularly reads nutrition journals and often blogs about recent findings.

Would it be offensive to you if I asked what your education is in and what your field is?

By 'prolonged spike' what I was referring to was a cumulative effect, which is caused by constant bombardment to the body by glycoxidation end products and high carb foods (such as caused by eating dairy and high carb foods, all through out the day). Yes there is *some* relevancy to the GI chart, but most of it is pseudo scientific drivel. For example the myth that most wheat pasta's could qualify as low GI sources of carbs. Rice too. Both are very grainy foods. And even if whole grains cause 'less of a spike' than processed ones, they still cause way more of a spike than lower carb meals. My point here is that macronutrients are out of wack on vegan diets, which is what would account for many peoples failure at said diet. I think if people just steered away from the extreme fructose consumption and pathetically high carb intake, replaced *some* of it with healthy fats, got all the micronutrients from fresh vegetables, the diet would be perfect and very few people would fail it.

I respectfully disagree with some of his recommendations based on my education and personal experiences.

Under Omega 3's he wrote about cooking with oils. The only oils that I am aware of that do well heated are coconut oil and grapeseed oil. That being said, many oils are also pro-inflammatory such as flax seed oil. Much better to consume fresh ground flax for fatty acids. Any nuts are best eaten raw after being soaked to neutralize enzyme inhibitors, increase absorption of nutrients and reduce phytic acid.

Calcium is available in dark green leafy vegetables so no need for the man-made variety.

Vitamin A food recommendations were good.

Then came the protein recommendations which were shocking to see processed foods listed as a good source of protein - wow!

Loved the Vitamin C recommendations.

Zinc recommendations failed to mention dark leafy greens and did have some items I would steer clear of such as tempeh and a multi-vitamin.

Whole grains I find are totally un-necessary and for many of us a source of problems for digestion and overall health.

Then to see only 2 servings each of fruits and green leafy vegetables as enough, well that is just plain ridiculous. 1 apple sometimes is considered 2 servings of fruit.

It looks to me like a vegan version of the old antiquated food pyramid.

This was good to see what RD's are recommending for vegans and think through and analyze it. Thank you again for sharing this.

Jack Norris decided to become an RD after he was already working with Vegan Outreach by going out and trying to convince college kids to be vegan. He was inspired to go back to school by having people hand him back his literature and apologetically saying that they gave vegan diets a try, but felt like crap. Since being an RD he has also encountered many ex-vegans.

Basically, the sources he suggests are geared towards people who he thinks are not going to get certain nutrients at all or even get adequate calories. In other words, sloppy eaters and people who are not going to stretch themselves to try inconvenient foods.

Those people are not going to eat 3 - 4 cups a day of chopped, cooked greens to get adequate levels of calcium or put a lot of effort into their diets.

People on this board, who are more conscientious about their diets, but who may be in a position of not knowing if they are getting every nutrient they need, can find his recommendations useful as a checklist and can seek out better food sources by knowing what they already know.

My introduction to veganism and nutrition as a young man was through "alternative health" types who liked to hang around old fashioned health food stores and alternative health lectures. Those people liked their folklore and they loved to tell stories with warnings. Especially about tomatoes and other "nightshades", which billions of people ate and had no problems with whatsoever.

Given that the people in this thread seem to be better informed I don't think the anti-grain sentiment is coming from the common conflation of processed foods with all sources of carbohydrates.

A large portion of my calories for the last 30 years has come from whole grains (not whole grain pastas or breads, but whole grains ) and I have found it to be a health boon.

I think many people are simply not acquainted with whole grains beyond the 2-3 popular grains.

The PCRM has an anti-diabetes program that is very high carbohydrate ( whole grains, legumes and vegetables ) that was made into a PBS series and was created while working with the NIH. I have read anecdotal accounts from a number of people on the web telling others that the program has greatly ameliorated their diabetes and improved their vitality. I've also seen web sites from other people with nothing to do with veganism or the PCRM report how their blood sugar issues improved with the use of oats and sometimes other whole grains.

Given all of these things I don't think it is fair to dismiss Jack Norris's recommendations as a "food pyramid" or to make whole grains into "the new nightshade"

Yes, a few people have problems with grain, but a few people have problems with every single other food. That doesn't mean those foods should be labeled as deleterious.......only as not suitable for particular individuals.

No offense taken. I am not condemning grains and have tried almost all of them but do not do well on them. There are a lot of gluten-free grains. I think too in the US the growing and processing of grains may be very different than other parts of the world and this affects their digestion and absorption.

If someone who has adult onset diabetes just goes from processed foods to whole foods including whole grains of course that is going to help them. Just getting off the SAD diet onto a more plant-based diet would do that. But too many times I see folks who just stop eating meat but don't use enough real foods such as vegies and fruit to get their nutrition. And synthetic vitamins will not replace real food. (Synthetic vitamins are a whole discussion on their own.)

Just getting more people in the USA to eat more real food would help lighten the health care system load. From what you wrote sounds like Jack Norris has his target audience that he is trying to reach and improve their health. But to me it still looks like a no meat, no dairy version of the food pyramid. Just my opinion.

I am not an extremist on any front nor an alarmist. I do tend to be a rebel and usually about 10 years after I make changes either in the way I practice veterinary medicine or my own lifestyle it starts becoming more mainstream. But I am also practical, realistic and down to earth. I do appreciate your comments and information.

I don't think it is difficult at all to throw some raw vegetables together and simply eat them. In fact what could be easier? if cost is an issue shop farmers markets instead of normal grocery outlets. I am not nor was I suggesting total absence of grains from the diet to be necessary (for example, 2/3rds cups of oatmeal a day seems to be fine) but the over-consumption of grains and foods containing grains has created unbalanced dietary issues with people. Whether soaking or not soaking them for leeching out the phytate. The sheer amount of carbs are an issue for any normal human body seeking normal healthy, long term functioning. Particularly processed grains, but I also stand firm with regard to the cumulative effect I spoke of earlier. High carb foods affect the formation of Advanced glycation end products more than lower carb or moderate carb foods. All grains are very high in carbohydrate. vegetables contain healthy carbs, so it stands to reason that, when on a vegan diet these should be relied on for the bulk of ones carb and micronutrient consumption, because when you compared the nutrient profile of one serving of mixed vegetables and one serving of grains, the grains pale in comparison to the nutrient profile in the vegetables. And if you're already low in micronutrients the anti-nutrients in grains will deplete what little you are getting. Hence the failure of people who just do not research this and fail said diet.

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