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That, I think, is ultimately the flaw with the "all-in" subscription system. The fans who care only about vintage re-releases directly "combat" the fans who support other factions and new characters. The reality, because of the "all-in" system, is that both sides of the fan base need each other for things to survive over the next couple years... and that means everyone is not going to be able to get 100% of what they want. Everyone's personal preferences and pocketbooks are going to have to compromise, to some extent.

That's not the flaw of the "all-in" subscription - that's the strength of it. The flaw is in us. The fans who, given a system that only gets each of us what we want by getting *all* of use what we want, still demand selfishly.

IE, at the end of the road, MOTU vintage fans would have a full set of Classic figures of the vintage line, but they would get it in time, while the New Adventures fan also got his complete line, and the Princess of Power fans got his complete line, and 200x fans got theirs, and minicomics got theirs, and so on.

The concept of this line was conceieved with a sense of community and camaraderie - morals condoned and expounded upon by the very cast of characters we all claim to be fans of. And yet, the divisiveness continues. So much so, that the line itself has been changed, removing lesser known characters to the line-up for 2014, but not removing the communal and all-encompassing nature of the line, and some buyers are still complaining.

That's not the flaw of the "all-in" subscription - that's the strength of it. The flaw is in us. The fans who, given a system that only gets each of us what we want by getting *all* of use what we want, still demand selfishly.

IE, at the end of the road, MOTU vintage fans would have a full set of Classic figures of the vintage line, but they would get it in time, while the New Adventures fan also got his complete line, and the Princess of Power fans got his complete line, and 200x fans got theirs, and minicomics got theirs, and so on.

The concept of this line was conceieved with a sense of community and camaraderie - morals condoned and expounded upon by the very cast of characters we all claim to be fans of. And yet, the divisiveness continues. So much so, that the line itself has been changed, removing lesser known characters to the line-up for 2014, but not removing the communal and all-encompassing nature of the line, and some buyers are still complaining.

And with that, I throw up my hands.

This is a good post. I am a vintage fan, but the Four Horsemen have made me a fan or at least an admirer of the other factions.

The only figures I have not been keen on, are the ones none of us asked for to begin with- Mo-Larr vs. Toothless Skeletor, The Mighty Spector, Sir Laser Lot, Cy-Chop, Snake Man-At-Arms, and Vykron. None of these were fan demanded. I think other eras like NA and 200x get lumped in with these unfairly. The line would be stronger without those few slip-up figures we never wanted.

That's not the flaw of the "all-in" subscription - that's the strength of it. The flaw is in us. The fans who, given a system that only gets each of us what we want by getting *all* of use what we want, still demand selfishly.

IE, at the end of the road, MOTU vintage fans would have a full set of Classic figures of the vintage line, but they would get it in time, while the New Adventures fan also got his complete line, and the Princess of Power fans got his complete line, and 200x fans got theirs, and minicomics got theirs, and so on.

The concept of this line was conceieved with a sense of community and camaraderie - morals condoned and expounded upon by the very cast of characters we all claim to be fans of. And yet, the divisiveness continues. So much so, that the line itself has been changed, removing lesser known characters to the line-up for 2014, but not removing the communal and all-encompassing nature of the line, and some buyers are still complaining.

And with that, I throw up my hands.

Thanks for your note. I think we are actually saying shades of the same thing. The "all-in" for subs equates to "all or nothing" for whether there is/is not a line. Clearly the fan base is split (to some extent) between cherry pickers and the "all-in" folks. Instead of putting all the eggs in the "all-in" basket, Mattel should increase the allocation on select figures (like MOTU vintage) to allow for the cherry picking dudes. OR SUPPORT A PRE-ORDER SYSTEM. (Such worked for Castle Grayskull.) Being an "all-in" dude, I am concerned that fans who are more concerned about their own wants may jeopardize things for everyone. Everyone wants vintage... a lot want vintage+. It is like this:

"I am hungry and I want a sandwich." says Dave. "I'd like a half-sandwich."
"Hi Dave, I have a whole sandwich for you. I can't give you a half, but I will give you this full sandwich." says Steve.
"That's not acceptable," says Dave. "I want a half sandwich."
"OK. Well, I guess you'll get nothing (and I'll get no money from you either) because I refuse to split the sandwich into halves." states Steve.
"But my friend Mark will buy the other half of sandwich, so you'll be fully compensated." cries Dave.
"That's crap. I will not split up this sandwich." says Steve. " You and your buddy will both buy a full sandwich or you will both get nothing."
"Come on Mark," sighs Dave. "Lets see what kind of specials they have across the street."

OR

"I am hungry and I want a Turkey sandwich." says Bill.
"Hi Bill, I have a Chicken sandwich for you. I can't give you Turkey, but I will give you this Chicken sandwich so you are not without." says Randy.
"That's not acceptable," says Bill. "I want a Turkey sandwich or nothing."
"OK. Well, I guess you'll continue to be hungry because I can't give you 100% of what you want." sighs Randy. "I'd hoped Chicken would be acceptable as both Turkey and Chicken are in the poultry family."

While the two arguments above may sound absolutely ridiculous, it is precisely these kinds of arguments that we read all the time.

To avoid being starved of our hobby, we (as the collective fan base and Mattel as well) need to be more open to compromise. Elements of the fan base needs to broaden its horizons beyond what it had [and loved] in the 80s. (It is a big world out there folks.) In addition, Mattel needs to soften their "all-in" or nothing stance for subs because it is not working for a seemingly large size of the fan base. (In the process they need to gain confidence in their line and understand that if they want things to grow, they need to adjust their model to support (and grow) the existing fan base. I personally think that larger support for cherry picking will do that.) I think this approach is the only way to keep "everyone" mostly happy. In the process maybe such will also eliminate some of the frequent complaints.

Thanks for your note. I think we are actually saying shades of the same thing.

Sounds like we are, but you're still looking for better solutions. And after 5 years, we've figured out there is no better solution. The one Scott came up with in 2008 is still the only way we all get what we want, but it requires every fan of the line to support the wants and desires of every other fan - which isn't going to happen in this community.

Instead of putting all the eggs in the "all-in" basket, Mattel should increase the allocation on select figures (like MOTU vintage) to allow for the cherry picking dudes.

But by increasing production runs, the scarcity rule isn't in effect, and interest in the line goes down. We don't have enough knowledge of production to determine that Mattel can "easily" up the production on one figure over another, nor do we know how many units above the Sub # they are already producing, so this really is not in our realm of speculation.

Basically, if they can do it, they already are.

OR SUPPORT A PRE-ORDER SYSTEM.

This doesn't work because Scott has flat out said if they went to figure-by-figure pre-orders, only MOTU vintage would get made. That's the point we're going to go back to every time this argument comes up (even if we're on the same side). In order to budget 12 figures into a year, Scott and the Horsemen need to balance the year with low-cost figures and high cost figures. Without easy repaints to offset the 100% new-tooled characters, Mattel cannot justify the line.

Without a cost-averaged line, a pre-order for 1 figure with full tooling would be priced based on what that single figure will cost Matty to design, tool and produce (since they can't guarantee the pre-orders of low-cost repaints, they cannot offer a price off-set by those cheaper figures). That price will probably be multiple times more expensive than that figure would be in the subscription.

Which brings us back to the beginning of the conversation - I'd rather pay $30 for Ram Man, and *also* get 2 other figures from the less popular spin-off lines. And for those that don't want 2 extra figures - ok, but at least you're *getting* them, and they can be sold (even at a loss) and your overall cost to buy Ram Man will be cheaper than if you just paid the pre-order price.

Sounds like we are, but you're still looking for better solutions. And after 5 years, we've figured out there is no better solution. The one Scott came up with in 2008 is still the only way we all get what we want, but it requires every fan of the line to support the wants and desires of every other fan - which isn't going to happen in this community.

But by increasing production runs, the scarcity rule isn't in effect, and interest in the line goes down. We don't have enough knowledge of production to determine that Mattel can "easily" up the production on one figure over another, nor do we know how many units above the Sub # they are already producing, so this really is not in our realm of speculation.

Basically, if they can do it, they already are.

This doesn't work because Scott has flat out said if they went to figure-by-figure pre-orders, only MOTU vintage would get made. That's the point we're going to go back to every time this argument comes up (even if we're on the same side). In order to budget 12 figures into a year, Scott and the Horsemen need to balance the year with low-cost figures and high cost figures. Without easy repaints to offset the 100% new-tooled characters, Mattel cannot justify the line.

Without a cost-averaged line, a pre-order for 1 figure with full tooling would be priced based on what that single figure will cost Matty to design, tool and produce (since they can't guarantee the pre-orders of low-cost repaints, they cannot offer a price off-set by those cheaper figures). That price will probably be multiple times more expensive than that figure would be in the subscription.

Which brings us back to the beginning of the conversation - I'd rather pay $30 for Ram Man, and *also* get 2 other figures from the less popular spin-off lines. And for those that don't want 2 extra figures - ok, but at least you're *getting* them, and they can be sold (even at a loss) and your overall cost to buy Ram Man will be cheaper than if you just paid the pre-order price.

Yes, I am looking for a better solution. The system that is currently in place has challenges that need to be overcome for the good of the line. What I have been suggesting is maintaining the subscription BUT offering some additional options too. That includes additional allocations for day of sale and expansion of the pre-order system. The fan community was less polarized and sales were higher when emphasis on subs was lower and larger sale day allocations were available.

IE, at the end of the road, MOTU purists would have a full set of Classic figures of the vintage line, but they would get it in time, while the New Adventures fan also got his complete line, and the Princess of Power fans got his complete line, and 200x fans got theirs, and minicomics got theirs, and so on.
.

Yep... At the end of the road they would have had a full set of classics. Though instead of paying about $20 for the ones they wanted... they paid closer to $100 a piece so that they could have another 4 figures they never would have bought willing.

I know it wont happen but i would love "The Collector" as a vechile or filmation Attack Trak, i think if they do vechiles they could be smaller jet sleds or even Fistos and Jitsus rides. They may run 1 set amount but changing the decos half way through.

Happy that 2 bad will be the same size as the regular classics characters. For me im hoping to see as many filmation characters as possible, that would be my first choice but am a subber and want everything im given anyway.

The answer with Granamyr sellout is interesting and I am happy about that. Hope this means more oversized items - I love these. Especially vehicles. The design of the vintage vehicles is incredible - probably the best thing in the vintage line. Add to that 4H sculpt and detail, the result is awesome. Wind Raider is an example of excellence! For me it is the best piece released in MOTUC so far. Hopefully we will get more.

Originally Posted by MegaGearMax

It's an even bigger shame that they shoot down vehicle pre-orders until the Wind Raider finally sells out.

I would like to know how many are left. Would be nice to have a thermometer of the remaining Wind Raider stock.

The answer with Granamyr sellout is interesting and I am happy about that. Hope this means more oversized items - I love these. Especially vehicles. The design of the vintage vehicles is incredible - probably the best thing in the vintage line. Add to that 4H sculpt and detail, the result is awesome. Wind Raider is an example of excellence! For me it is the best piece released in MOTUC so far. Hopefully we will get more.

I couldn't agree more. The WindRaider is IMO, by far, the most incredible piece in this line. (To put it in perspective, I never really liked the Wind Raider from the vintage line...it seemed too plain to me).
I would love to see how the 4H would tackle the Attak Trak, Dragon Walker, Land Shark, or Spydor!

That's not the flaw of the "all-in" subscription - that's the strength of it. The flaw is in us. The fans who, given a system that only gets each of us what we want by getting *all* of use what we want, still demand selfishly.

IE, at the end of the road, MOTU vintage fans would have a full set of Classic figures of the vintage line, but they would get it in time, while the New Adventures fan also got his complete line, and the Princess of Power fans got his complete line, and 200x fans got theirs, and minicomics got theirs, and so on.

The concept of this line was conceieved with a sense of community and camaraderie - morals condoned and expounded upon by the very cast of characters we all claim to be fans of. And yet, the divisiveness continues. So much so, that the line itself has been changed, removing lesser known characters to the line-up for 2014, but not removing the communal and all-encompassing nature of the line, and some buyers are still complaining.

And with that, I throw up my hands.

The flaw in the sub is that it is now the end-all, be-all of the line. People aren't being selfish; they are simply frustrated that Mattel and DR use the sub like a caveman's club, and every August we get the same "Sub or DIE!!!!!!!" strongarming from them. And it's no coincidence that, as they got lazier and saw the sub as easy, sure money, the line started to have problems.

The sub was supposed to be for folks like me who love the idea of getting a broad range of characters, from vintage heavyweights to Fighting Foe Men. It was to be a service for us, making it easier to get the figures while the folks who didn't want everything picked and chose. And when they did it that way, the line thrived because it had a solid base but could also grow as new folks came in to sample the figures. Now you can jump on once a year, and you have to commit hundreds of dollars while knowing maybe a fourth of what you will be getting.

Mattel took something that was supposed to be a convenience for collectors, and turned it into bludgeon with their "my way or the highway" marketing strategy. Some folks rightly complain that to get what they want, they have no choice but to buy a bunch of things they don't or take a chance on the 15th of each month and hope that Mattel actually made enough to sell that day.

The disrespect comes from Mattel, not from fans.

"I will use this power for all the good that can be done, to work for peace, to encourage virtue, and above all, to preserve life in all its forms..." Superman

That's not the flaw of the "all-in" subscription - that's the strength of it. The flaw is in us. The fans who, given a system that only gets each of us what we want by getting *all* of use what we want, still demand selfishly.

IE, at the end of the road, MOTU vintage fans would have a full set of Classic figures of the vintage line, but they would get it in time, while the New Adventures fan also got his complete line, and the Princess of Power fans got his complete line, and 200x fans got theirs, and minicomics got theirs, and so on.

The concept of this line was conceieved with a sense of community and camaraderie - morals condoned and expounded upon by the very cast of characters we all claim to be fans of. And yet, the divisiveness continues. So much so, that the line itself has been changed, removing lesser known characters to the line-up for 2014, but not removing the communal and all-encompassing nature of the line, and some buyers are still complaining.

The flaw in the sub is that it is now the end-all, be-all of the line. People aren't being selfish; they are simply frustrated that Mattel and DR use the sub like a caveman's club, and every August we get the same "Sub or DIE!!!!!!!" strongarming from them. And it's no coincidence that, as they got lazier and saw the sub as easy, sure money, the line started to have problems.

The sub was supposed to be for folks like me who love the idea of getting a broad range of characters, from vintage heavyweights to Fighting Foe Men. It was to be a service for us, making it easier to get the figures while the folks who didn't want everything picked and chose. And when they did it that way, the line thrived because it had a solid base but could also grow as new folks came in to sample the figures. Now you can jump on once a year, and you have to commit hundreds of dollars while knowing maybe a fourth of what you will be getting.

Mattel took something that was supposed to be a convenience for collectors, and turned it into bludgeon with their "my way or the highway" marketing strategy. Some folks rightly complain that to get what they want, they have no choice but to buy a bunch of things they don't or take a chance on the 15th of each month and hope that Mattel actually made enough to sell that day.

The disrespect comes from Mattel, not from fans.

^^^^^This exactly! Last year there was at least one figure a month I wanted, sometimes too......figured this year would be the same but then the reveals came and there were a few I didn't want. But with the line on the chopping block I bit the bullet and subbed. Now so far with the reveals there are already 5 characters that I'm trading or selling off. That's almost $200 I woulda saved by not subbing as I'm not an all in collector. If it wasn't for "sub or die" I'ld still be picking or buying from the marketplace like I did last year from our awesome sellers.

Actually, the vintage figure had different boots and gloves on each side, and the purple side had scales and ridges on his limbs. Both sides were completely different.
The only big discernable difference the 200X version added was a split loincloth, which in my opinion looked ghastly mainly due to the horrible shade of green they used on one half. I will be more than happy if it is based on the vintage.
Check out the differences: http://he-man.wikia.com/wiki/Two_Bad

I have had the toy since I was a child so I know what it looks like. Those differences look far to tame to me. I much prefer them really looking like two different creatures/characters. The sculpting of each side needs to be exaggerated far more than it is on the 80s toy to appeal to me.

I couldn't agree more. The WindRaider is IMO, by far, the most incredible piece in this line. (To put it in perspective, I never really liked the Wind Raider from the vintage line...it seemed too plain to me).
I would love to see how the 4H would tackle the Attak Trak, Dragon Walker, Land Shark, or Spydor!

Oh I would love to see those vehicles too ... actually I would like to see all the vintage vehicles! Looking at Wind Raider I also imagine how Astro Sub or Bola Jet would look like in MOTUC. The NA stuff would be incredible too - I am sure! C'mon the NA He-Man that will be soon released will not ride on Battle Cat! Right?

Of course Granamyr is piece of art and a must have but maybe it is because I study engineering that I find the MOTU vehicles more interesting in general.

I like that there was this Road Ripper race at Power Con 2012 to support vehicles in MOTUC. It was very nice of Toyguru to join - he can be seen at the race in one of the videos. Terry Higuchi - designer of Mattel also mentioned in the interview in Roast Gooble Dinner that his favorite piece in MOTUC he worked on is the Wind Raider. They need to persuade the management and give us more vehicles!

I'm sorry if I missed it and someone had already brought it up in this thread but did Toyguru confirm if he'll reopen the Castle Grayskull Preorder again for the NYTF. If not, does anyone know how I can submit that question to have him answer it? I missed it and I now realize it would have been wiser to have just ordered it at the lesser price.

Yep... At the end of the road they would have had a full set of classics. Though instead of paying about $20 for the ones they wanted... they paid closer to $100 a piece so that they could have another 4 figures they never would have bought willing.

You do understand my point, don't you? If it weren't for those 4 other figures costing out the total of 5 figures to $20 each, we'd be paying that $100 for just the one figure anyway. Pre-orders for individual figures means Matty figures out how much the figure will cost to make, and divide that by how many pre-orders they sell. If it costs 100,000 to make a Flying Fists He-Man, and only 1000 people pre-order, it'll cost us $100 per person.

And lemme tell you, between the steel molds, the raw materials, Asia factory costs, 4H's payroll, Mattels Payroll, shipping and whatever Digital River costs, that's a pretty conservative guesstimate. If the figure were 100% new tooling, or a bigger item like Modulok or Stridor, if it weren't for the guaranteed sales of an all-in sub, the prices would be astronomically higher, and the end result would still be that only some of us get what they want, and some of us are told to bugger off.

He said that if they reopen the Castle Grayskull Preorder the price would probably go up
and that we might not see CG at NYTF if the prototype isnt finished in time

Thanks for the info Zodac666. So if they reopened the preorder, the price would probably go up. Then Toyguru acts shocked when he sees the subscription numbers go down. Instead of questioning our resolve and commitment, why doesn't Toyguru do something as a show of good faith and keep the preorder price the same. It would be a nice small start.

Have to love this answer in regards to higher international shipping (and higher shipping in general):

Totally hear you.

Alas shipping costs are not something we can control. I am actively looking into any and all options but at the end of the day, there isn't much way to cost reduce shipping.

Part of participating in (and "collecting") a very low quota high end collector line is accpeting that it is only available online and there are costs to this such as paying for shipping. We are WAY under the quota to ever put any of our Matty.com lines at retail. So really it comes down to "accepting" the fact that to continue to get new MOTUC figures every month, paying online prices which include shipping is just part of the over all collecting experience.

I've always said we will try to make these figures as long as their are fans buying and that one day it will cost more to make (and ship) these figures then fans are willing to pay. I hope we are not there yet, but if we are, it's been a fun run!

We can affect things like character choice (which if we get a 2014 line we will do our best to only focus on the vintage line and main animated figs) but affecting shipping or the cost of prodcution are not factors we have much control over. It costs what it costs and hopefully we have enough customers willing to pay for more figures. If not, we'll wrap things up for Classiocs in 2013 and look forwards the future for something different and maybe less expensive to make and ship.

Alas shipping costs are not something we can control. I am actively looking into any and all options but at the end of the day, there isn't much way to cost reduce shipping.

Part of participating in (and "collecting") a very low quota high end collector line is accpeting that it is only available online and there are costs to this such as paying for shipping. We are WAY under the quota to ever put any of our Matty.com lines at retail. So really it comes down to "accepting" the fact that to continue to get new MOTUC figures every month, paying online prices which include shipping is just part of the over all collecting experience.

I've always said we will try to make these figures as long as their are fans buying and that one day it will cost more to make (and ship) these figures then fans are willing to pay. I hope we are not there yet, but if we are, it's been a fun run!

We can affect things like character choice (which if we get a 2014 line we will do our best to only focus on the vintage line and main animated figs) but affecting shipping or the cost of prodcution are not factors we have much control over. It costs what it costs and hopefully we have enough customers willing to pay for more figures. If not, we'll wrap things up for Classiocs in 2013 and look forwards the future for something different and maybe less expensive to make and ship.

Well that's not going to make him very popular now is it

"A knight is sworn to valor. His heart knows only virtue. His blade defends the helpless. His word speaks only truth. His wrath undoes the wicked."

The sad thing is that the death of this line will be because of Scott/Matty's stubborness and refusal to make the buying experiance anything but a pain in the ass for the customer. They won't fix the current problems while at the same time creating new ones which further frustrate an already irritated consumer. The only policy is buy the figures this way or not at all.

Well it's nice that there's some kind of post-Classics scenario, but it still makes me nervous seeing this kind of remark.

Yes it does. I will follow that up by saying, if the line ends Scott and Mattel can thank themselves. The shipping expense and the DR problems could've and should've been addressed much sooner than NEVER. Saying these costs are accurate is bogus. It's been said over and over, $25 is absolutely tolerable, but the shipping is inexcusable. Simply adjusting the shipping schedule would've helped yet they wouldn't do that either. Bimonthly shipments would suck but it's better than no shipments. I just hope something changes and 2014 is a go. I Think Mattel owes us that much at least.