UPDATE: Giants VP Bobby Evans said Major League Baseball took Villalona off the restricted list and he is applying for his U.S. work visa now. Evans said the club is “not anticipating problems.” Original post below is updated throughout.

The Giants added six players to the 40-man roster to protect them from the Rule 5 draft, and the headliner is obvious: Former slugging first base prospect Angel Villalona, who hasn’t played in two years because he was charged with murder in the barroom slaying of a man in the Dominican Republic.

Villalona eventually had the charges dropped due to lack of evidence. (It’s been reported that witnesses changed their stories.) A few months ago, he sued the Giants in a Dominican court for $5 million for breach of contract. The team settled that suit. Now, apparently, Villalona is off the restricted list. Major League Baseball made that decision, allowing the Giants to purchase his contract.

He still must re-establish a U.S. work visa, which is no sure thing. Without that, he cannot begin his baseball career again.

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Giants VP Bobby Evans said the club was “not anticipating problems, but at the same time, this certainly has a high profile nature to it. So i don’t want to pretend to know all the reasons for these decisions.”

Villalona signed as a 16-year-old in 2006 for $2.1 million, easily setting a club record for an international free agent. (Outfielder Rafael Rodriguez, a disappointment to this point, received $2.55 million two years later.)

Villalona is currently at the Giants’ complex in Santo Domingo, where he has shown off the same powerful swing that earned him the big bonus.

He is in the midst of trying to get in baseball shape to return to playing activity,” Evans said. “We’ve seen him swing the bat and he’s clearly got the bat speed. he’s got to get into baseball shape and that’s the hurdle in front of him right now.”

Villalona had taken personal leave home in September, 2009, to visit his mother while he was on the disabled list with a strained muscle in his leg. That’s when he was arrested in connection with a fatal shooting at a La Romana bar.

Charges were dropped earlier this year. Regardless, it’s believed there was much debate in the front office about whether to welcome Villalona back into the system. Ultimately, it’s fair to speculate that the lawsuit might have made some impact on the decision.

“This was very complex and I think it’s hard to summarize the process or the ultimate complexities involved,” Evans said. “The reality is, he’s a player that has been cleared under Dominican law of any involvement or wrongdoing and we are not the jury in that sort of case. We don’t have the benefit of all the facts — certainly not to the same degree as the Dominican legal system.

“A decision was made and we’ll focus on what our options are under the current scenario. He’s been cleared and taken off the restricted list by Major League Baseball. So we’re reacting to his current set of circumstances, just as we reacted in the past.”

Evans acknowledged that Villalona won’t be just another prospect in camp.

“There’s still a lot we have to learn about him on and off the field,” Evans said. “He knows he has a long process in front of him and he has a lot to prove. That process has just now begun for him.”

The Giants also protected OF Roger Kieschnick, 2B Charlie Culberson, RHP Dan Otero, RHP Hector Correa and OF Tyler Graham. Of those, only Graham was a major surprise to me. He’s an overachiever but is a favorite of Triple-A Fresno manager Steve Decker, has plus-plus speed and is ultra-aggressive on the basepaths.

The club took two players off the 40-man, including another speedy center fielder. Darren “the Bullet” Ford had trouble staying healthy and couldn’t compete well enough at the plate. He got designated for assignment along with right-hander Waldis Joaquin. The Giants already did this once to Joaquin and ended up re-signing him. We’ll see if that happens again.

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Indeed, Evans said the moves don’t necessarily mean that the club won’t try to re-sign Ford and/or Joaquin to minor league contracts.

As for Graham over Ford?

“We brought in some other options for us,” Evans said. “Graham brings a lot of speed and ability in center field.”

–
Here is a bit on Graham I wrote earlier this month for Baseball America. I was going to direct you to the link to this organizational report, but it doesn’t seem to be posted.

And yet he probably saw the red light more than any player on Manager Steve Decker’s roster.

“I had to red-light him most of the time, actually,” said Decker, whose club stole a league-high 209 bases. “He was so aggressive, he’d be flashing me the green light pretty much every time. I’d have to say, `No, Tyler, we’re down by three.’ But that’s his personality. He plays so hard.”

Graham’s hard-charging style hasn’t always worked to his benefit. His diving, wall-crashing escapades have led to injuries going back to Oregon State, when he helped lead the Beavers to consecutive national championships in 2005-06.

Oregon State coaches were stunned when Graham returned for his final season, turning down an offer from the Chicago Cubs after going in the 14th round of the ’05 draft. The Giants spent a 19th-round pick on him the following year.

Graham is 27, he lacks power and his arm is fringy in center field, but Decker calls him the organization’s best playmaker at the position – a true compliment, considering Gary Brown excelled at Single-A San Jose and Darren Ford can run down almost anything.

“Brown has great range and instincts, but nobody else will run into gap like (Graham can), leave his feet, climb a wall, you name it,” Decker said. “He makes game-changing plays.”

Graham didn’t have high school baseball while growing up in Great Falls, Montana. Maybe that’s why he never turns down a chance to play. After hitting .273/.337/.338 at Fresno, he immediately headed to play for Culiacan in the Mexican League.

Andrew Baggarly

Andrew Baggarly has witnessed and documented the most eventful era in San Francisco Giants baseball history, having covered the team since 2004 for th​ree major media outlets including the San Jose Mercury News and the Oakland Tribune​. This will be his 20th season as a baseball writer.
​Baggarly is the author of the bestselling book, A Band of Misfits: Tales of the 2010 San Francisco Giants. A second title, Giant Splash, is due to be published by Triumph Books in April 2015.
Baggarly’s other notable life accomplishments include running as the Bratwurst in the Milwaukee Sausage Race and becoming a three-time Jeopardy! champion.

He was in the top ten of the Giants farm system as a 18 year old in high A

Dinero

I like the Graham move. He could definitely bring some energy to the big club, as a fourth or fifth OF. He’s been sort of up and down for Culiacan, but he had four hits yesterday and two (including his first homer of the winter) on Wednesday. He’s four years younger than Christian as well.

Woj

Please tell me Eli Whiteside is done as a Giant. Dropping him off the 40 man and out of the organization would free up space for Ford.

muzak

It’s the decision to protect Villalona over a guy like Ford that’s curious. Maybe they’re still avoiding the law suit in so doing. Ford at least offers something to the club now with his speed. Villallona’s ethics seems roughly like the Dominican courts: not exactly a steller example. A kid like Villalona is a lot more valuable in his home country as a free man making mlb bread- but to say he’s got some character issues would be putting it mildly.

http://www.gravatar.com ClutchUp

Woj:

Eli is probably a done deal no longer a Giant. Ford is a done deal as you know per Andy Baggs. You can’t steal first base and he has sadly shown that he is a one trick pony albeit with WORLD Class speed. After he beat his criminal charge we all thought he would progress but his small ball game has never developed. With TWO strikes he should pound the ball into the 3.5 hole and MAKE the defense on the left side prove that they can throw him out.

He got picked off about 2-3 times down the stretch.

The BULLET is a Giant NO LONGER.

@Anti Lasorda: Are you in heaven yet? Andy posted three times in three days.

http://www.gravatar.com ClutchUp

Pacman:

Villalona was part of the Latin Scouting Bureu rookie crop and then Felipe Alou gave his blessing. I saw him play at SJ Muni 2008-2009.

Was either framed in his home country for the murder due to the perps knowing about his signing bonus or he was involved and his bonus helped pay off the corrupt judges.

Huge Body at times after he ate Westernized Grub. Has gotten back in the gym lately after the Giants and his agent stopped suing and counter suing each other.

Ford and Fords character vs. Villalona and his are unrelated. Villalona is a RH future power bat. How future is WAY UP for debate.

http://www.gravatar.com ClutchUp

@Muzak: personally I loved the way Ford could impact a game but he had become an enigma and only seemed to thrive or get an opportunity as a September call up.

Can out run a ball in the gaps and up the alleys but as far as taking a spot on a 25 man roster he apparently would be retarding the development of other younger players in the system.

He NEVER showed any improvement with his hitting. Never at any level.

Ram

Ford was a good Giant, wish him well.

walt kovacs

they cant seriously be afraid that villalona is gonna get rule 5

this move has gotta be due to his needing a work visa

ford could stay with the org…but i have a feeling the nats are gonna grab him

I like that the Giants weeded by selecting the higher upside players (Correa and Graham) over the marginal-ceiling bound (Joaquin and Ford, respectively).

Lefty

Walt,

Right after that, Tyler LaTorre tweeted: “I am a firm believer in second chances and pray that everyone learns from their mistakes and is one with God.” (I saw it because Brandon Crawford retweeted it.) Maybe he had second thoughts about Bobby Evans, too.

One should always be careful when using social media, but I gotta say that I have some sympathy for where those young guys are coming from. No one’s perfect, but I’m this particular case, someone ended up violently dead. I’d be a bit freaked out, too.

JD4SF

It seems Villalona is yet another 1B, bats right. Initially predicted for 2012 MLB majors. 1B seems to be getting crowded for the next few years, which suggests potential trade fodder going forward from that group.

I can understand letting Ford go. Awesome speed, but his biggest value was as a pinch runner … and I seem to recall he was showing a tendency to get picked off at first.

JD4SF

“Matt Kemp and the Los Angeles Dodgers staked their futures together Friday, finalizing a $160 million, eight-year contract that matches the seventh-highest deal in baseball history.”

I told the usual suspect pundits that Ford was NOT worth the hype. He could NOT hit a beach ball with a guitar, DUH? If I had phrased the latter differently I would had been accused of racism. So much for that infatuation, DUH?

Walter Guest

Angel Villalona is another of those free swingers that the Giants waste money on year after year. He has a lifetime 4% walk rate. The most walks he got in any season was 18, and that was in 500 plate appearances.

Combine that with his low batting averages and he has small chance to be of any value in the majors

Obsessivegiantscompulsive

Villalona could possibly play 3B if he is in better shape. He had continued to take balls at third in practice before because he wanted to return there.

I recall that Rule 5 is different for players way down low, maybe since singleA, he could be got by AA portion of draft?

People naturally will be scared, due to the lack of knowledge, but it will probably dissipate once he is in the clubhouse if he behaves like the sweetheart that his house mom described him as. If he acts guilty, it will be a whole other matter.

Also, 40-man means that there is now a timetable to DFA him from our system. Without that, maybe he sues again when DFA if he does not think he was given enough chance if not 40-man. Another reason could be that this was part of the legal settlement for him to drop his lawsuit. Or combo of all speculation.

Get Villalona in shape. Hope he puts up power numbers in A ball and trade him. There’s obviously no future for him in SF, might as well recoup some value on the initial investment. Giants will need every trade chip they can get for the deadline.

Tyler Graham has a fan club. And I am a card carrying member. He had a .393 OBP in 2010 AAA. It’s crazy how light and quick he looks on the basepaths. 5th OF candidate for sure.

Say Hey

Cutting Ford is meaningless, no matter how much speed he has. He’s a wasted roster spot for two out of every three games. He had a few great plays and I wish him well, but choosing some power potential over a guy who will never, ever be a major league hitter is just fine by me.

got my gravatar registered, have a nice image ready to go. What’s the next step? How do I get this site to recognize my URL and put that nice picture up by my handle ? Gravatar FAQ aren’t extremely helpful.

Help .

Leonard Bonilla

I don’t think the Giants need a “Fringy” Center fielder, I don’t care how fast he is, if he can’t throw and can’t hit leave him in AAA. At least Ford can throw and run. he may or may not hit but he hasn’t shown it in AAA yet. I’ll take Brown over both of them.

http://www.gravatar.com foothillsryan

testing gravatar

Husker

I don’t see any danger at all that any of the players added to the 40-man would be taken in the Major League portion of the Rule 5 draft, as no club could possibly think they can make their 25-man roster for the season.
However, I don’t know how the minor league portion works, except that it is even more complicated, so maybe there’s a reason for protecting these guys.
Ford and Joaquin are players whom I thought had some talent that could be major league-worthy a couple of years ago, but neither has shown much since.
I suspect nobody else will pick them up and they’ll be re-signed, but it is not at all likely to matter.

maninwoods

Villalona- Please. Over weight, let’s himself go,who does that remind me of? Do the Giants need to babysit another to keep himself in “baseball” shape? I hope to G not. It just smells to me.
I can see it now. The Giants promotions/marketing dept. selling little orange or striped DOC jerseys. Adorable.

The Wisdom Cow

Gotta think the Giant OF may be ripe for a rule 5 draftee coming in, as thin as they are and as cheap as it would be. If anyone sees a story on possible OFs left off major league rosters, throw up a link. [and thanks for the support, guys]

http://channelclemente channelclemente

Folks here frequently lament the Giants ‘modest’ plate presence. Well, given the limitations of $$, it’s a choice, pitching or bats. Unless you get lucky with a prospect being a suprise, the bats are always going to be marginal if you draft and pay with a pitching bias, no options, IMHO. However, speed and base running/stealing skills are not premium priced. That’s the excitement of guys ‘like’ Ford. That, IMO, is also how the Lincecum guys beat the Kershaw guys. That is especially true in the NL West and at AT&T given how the parks play. So, I think, since pitching wins championships, and speed amplifies the effectiveness of a pitch focused team, the Giants path forward seems clear.

totalfan62

Adding my thought on some really good posts and thoughts from the previous Baggs thread (pretty impressive for Giants…), since most of you will go here first.

@ Clutch: good observations on Belt, his physical and mental makeup potential and issues. Like many of us, I’ve watched countless games and multitudes of players over the years, and I just think this kid has “it”. He has a sweet swing, good pitch recognition and strike zone discipline, and very strong defensive skills. No doubt he needs to continue to mature and develop, and at the plate find that delicate balance between being aggressive and making the pitcher work. Maybe we all made too much of the way he was handled this year, but the Giants did him no favors with their treatment of him.

Regarding Beltran: whether or not he’s a good fit for our team (and I’m strongly on record saying he’s not), we cannot afford to and should not invest $10M+ on a declining skills OF, when the major priority is locking down two top 10 NL pitchers that will consume $35-40M of a $130M budget. We’re built on pitching and we can win with role players and our budding superstars (Posey and Sandoval).

As I’ve said many times, I believe if Pablo can hold his weight at 225-230 lbs he is a top 10 player in the NL if not all of baseball, and will be a $100M contract by 2014-2015. Pablo and Buster should be the heart and soul of our lineup over the next 4-5 years and hopefully beyond.

Interesting observations on the possibility of trading Timmy. Like many others it would break my heart, and he shows no signs of decline or leveling off. We are fortunate to have two other outstanding pitchers behind him (Cain and MadBum, righty and lefty), but the trading a star player for a handful of prospects is risky at best.

I can’t believe some of you guys. Even if the Giants decide there is no place for him on the team, he has trade value.

Remember a few years back when SF was kicking the tires on Miguel Cabrera? One of the guys the Fish wanted in the package was Villalona.

The Marlins have an excellent track record when it comes to evaluating hitting talent (they picked off Dan Uggla from the Snakes, remember?)

Good move by the Giants.

http://www.gravatar.com ClutchUp

@ maninwoods: What you say may be true to all of “us fans”, but when he was working out at 14-15 in the Dominican their were reps from every MLB club on the planet and SF signed him at 16.

His body may resemble Livan Hernandez, but he has that thumper potential exhibited by some great Dominicans from past baseball history. YES, he is out of shape and or fat, but us fans are just banging out stuff from our emotions whereas Bobby Evans and probably 8 other domiciled Dominican Giant Scouts are living at the Giants-Dominican Academy as we speak…

Nate’sFanMom

@Total

That Beltran, an excellent hitter, hasn’t been signed by an AL team confirms your doubts about his potential health.

That said, signing Beltran would be good for the Giants. His potential for injury can be minimized by playing him in LF and giving him regular days off. He can still play at good OF, but is clearly overmatched in Right, the most difficult position at AT&T.

Even if he were only to play 120-130 games, his hitting would be a game changer.

It also alllows the Giants to play Crawford, and perhaps Belt full-time.

For the latter to happen, Huff would have to be traded. And that is not a bad thing. His fatalistic, just another off year excuse, his indifference to getting in shape, and his party attitude have worn out his welcome.

http://www.gravatar.com ClutchUp

foothillsryan says: November 19th, 2011 at 8:46 am Clutch, got my gravatar registered, have a nice image ready to go. What’s the next step? How do I get this site to recognize my URL and put that nice picture up by my handle ? Gravatar FAQ aren’t extremely helpful.Help .

—Would not be the first time that twitter got somebody in trouble. Ashton Kutcher and MANY athletes. Justin Fitzgerald should probably “not hit send” before he thinks it over. BEvans will have that twitter removed soon…IMHO

Lefty

Totalfan: I think Belt got caught in the crossfire in a very challenging year for management. Defending the championship, Showtime, and the catastrophic injuries–Sabean, Bochy, et al. were in reactive/panic mode.

I’ve heard Sabean on the radio saying that if Belt hadn’t broken his wrist when he did, his year would have turned out differently. It seemed like an indirect acknowledgment that maybe some mistakes were made.

I don’t necessarily fault them for sending Belt down in April (but the comparisons with Freddie Freeman are hard to ignore). Nor did I particularly think it was a mistake to send him to Fresno after he covered from the wrist–he needed to get his swing and confidence back.

Here’s where they went wrong, IMO: They called him up in late July when he’d been raking in Fresno. He had a huge game against the Dodgers his first day back (home run and game-winning RBI double). Then they started him the next day against Kershaw, another 1-0 loss for Lincecum, and we went hitless (like mostly everyone else). Parked him back on the bench, and in two weeks, they sent him back to Fresno to activate DeRosa (whom they then parked on the bench for weeks).

I think he should have stayed up from July on and gotten to play. Now that we know there were problems with Huff, it’s ridiculous that Belt didn’t get some starts at 1B in July/August. (It’s also ridiculous that they kept Pill in the minors for so long, but that’s another rant.)

They compounded the jerking around of Belt by badmouthing him to the media (both Bochy and Sabean), even making pointedly complimentary remarks about Pill that were clear jabs at Belt.

Final movement of the rant: I HATE how Giants’ management criticizes their own players to the press. That includes “Fat Panda” last year and “Rally Thong” Huff this season. If there’s a problem, deal with it. You have lots of options (see: Tejada, Miguel; Rowand, Aaron). Don’t publicly humiliate and undermine your players.

http://www.gravatar.com ClutchUp

@ Lefty says: November 19th, 2011 at 10:46 am 36..

Impressive +++++

Foothills Ryan

Clutch, sent you an email. thanks in advance.

Lefty, I just don’t buy the mismanagement of Belt arguments anymore. It doesn’t matter at this point. Water under the bridge. If he’s going to be a stud he needs to be tough and get it going this year. Although the batting average wasn’t there, there were plenty of at-bats that he can draw confidence from.

http://channelclemente channelclemente

Foothill,

Belt doesn’t so much need confidence as bat speed.

Sansui-Sans Haiku Corner

Ford was a real thief…
Angel (like Uribe) framed
What is the downside?

http://channelclemente channelclemente

Another tall, thin, gangly, and awkward guy Belt should give thought to studying.

Uhh….the Splendid Splinter. Props to Ted. He did not suffer FOOLS at all.

Hits HR in his last at bat. Bean Town wants a Tip ‘O the Ball Cap and Teddie Ballgame provides, instead, his Middle Finger.

-Classic Ted Williams.

I LOVED those final years sitdowns with Tony Gwynn. Gave me chills.

http://www.gravatar.com ClutchUp

November 19th, 2011 at 11:16 am Lefty, I just don’t buy the mismanagement of Belt arguments anymore.

—Agree that is way in the past but perhaps we NEEDED a new phrase to discribe what actually happened because I was fortunate to talk to a Chicago Cub Ex who has “just moved on” and he said most baseball people were saying stuff like “what’s going on over there”.

Lefty nailed it. The Giants brass has a (bad) propensity to publicly OUT players at news conferences. This is in direct contrast to IN YEAR moments where Bochy and Sabean NEVER say a peep about somebody like Miggy going 0 for 35 (exageration) or OCab in front of OUR very eyes (the Eye Test) inexplicably awkwardly dropping a pop up with very little height on it. But after the last game of the season Bochy and Sabean have nailed those that Lefty commented on.

Adding another wrinkle is whatever they did do to Belt happened during – In – with the season going on in perpetual motion. I will just say SOMETHING occurred that was ODD, Random, Awkward and unnecessary but thankfully is now in the Past.

The Wisdom Cow

It’s only “in the past” if we let it go, and so long as Bochy is a manager that makes the youngsters have to force their way into playing time, with no chance to learn and adjust in the majors, I won’t be letting it go.

———————————

And how come people can now discuss the possibility of trading Tim civilly, when I got blasted for trying to discuss the merits shortly after Buster went down?

http://www.gravatar.com ClutchUp

@Wisdom

Very Good Point Sir.

Southbayray

Debate, argue and hurl veiled insults at each other but it’s all about baseball.

The new baseball collective bargaining agreement should be announced within the next 10 days.

Labor peace between the players and the owners. Can the NBA make that claim?

Enjoy baseball in the off-season. Who is going to be offered arbitration, who is going to be declined. Who is going to selected by the Giants in the Rule 5 draft?

Is a deal between the Giants and Cubs (Z for Z…Zito for Zambrano) possible?

Does adding Tyler Graham to the 40 man spell the end for Justin Christian and/or Andres Torres?

Does keeping Angel Villalona on the 40 man roster insulate the Giants from a lawsuit or is there some baseball talent that can yet be recovered?

Is Charlie Culberson the eventual successor to Freddy Sanchez?

I dub thee Brandon Crawford…heir apparent to the role of shortstop (with Omar Vizquel in the role of backup and mentor)

Dan Runzler….this is your year to prove you can inherit the role when the Giants eventually dispose of “Z” curse.

“It’s baseball guys. People will come. They’ll come to Pacific Bell Park (that’s the true name) for reasons they can’t even fathom. They’ll turn off at 3rd and King not knowing for sure why they’re doing it.

They’ll arrive wearing Orange and Black longing for 2010 and knowing that if it happened once it can happen again. You won’t mind because it’s baseball…Giants baseball.

They’ll watch the game and it’ll be as if they dipped themselves in the magic waters of McCovey Cove. The memories will be so thick they’ll have to brush them (and the tears) away from their faces.

People will come. There is peace in baseball and the grass is green. How many more days until Opening Day?

http://www.gravatar.com ClutchUp

Southbayray

—-Good stuff you posted

I will go with Joe Panik to be the heir apparent to Freddy.

http://channelclemente channelclemente

@CU,

did you ever hear about the ‘warmup’ talk Williams used to give himself before a game?

channelclemente says: November 19th, 2011 at 12:07 pm 49..@CU,
did you ever hear about the ‘warmup’ talk Williams used to give himself before a game?

—NO! I can’t wait!

http://channelclemente channelclemente

Just my two bits worth on Belt’s attitude. It seemed to me that his attitude changed on or around the time his apartment in Fresno was broken into. As I heard the story, it was his nagging concern for his wife’s safety in Fresno that got him distracted. Then, not being with the Giants to stay just exacerbated the problem, because he could never get settled with his family in the Bay area or find his rhythm with the club. Fresno does not qualify as a garden spot in anyone’s travel brochure and if that story is true, can you blame him for being distracted.

http://www.gravatar.com ClutchUp

When Doug Mapson first saw Brandon it was said that ONE had to squint to EVER see a potential major league swing.

Lets first remember that Belt was drafted first out of Texas as a Lefthanded pitcher. (maybe by the RedSox)

The scout that UNCOVERED Belt – Doug Mapson is a loyal servant and a baseball lifer and at every SF Giant meeting he has stood up and fought for his “guy”.

One of Belts biggest upsides is at first base and his anticipatory skills on the base paths. At 6’5 he can “read a ball in the dirt” as well as anyone while he is leading off first base. He was taught early on about pitchers pick off move tendencies by his college coach Augie Garrido. Belt has stolen second base easily at times, not due to blazing speed but by being attentive. He will NOT beat out the average infield hit but he will go from first to third easily on the PROPER outfield hit or score from second base easily with on base hits to the outfield because he gets great reads on balls leaving the infield. Both skills were taught heavily at the University of Texas by Garrido’s staff.

Fans need to sit back and let the evolution HAPPEN (that is like Wisdom Cow said IF Bochy let’s him). Belt will NOT be an overnight success. He is being groomed to drive IN runs not create them. He will have games where he is on fire and games where he looks over matched. That has happened to players in the HOF and will continue to happen historically in MLB. Pitching dominates hitting at every level of baseball.

I, when I was a kid in Houston, overheard (at a kitchen table of all places) one of Johnny Keanes friends relate the story. He said Ted would come into the tunnel to the dugout before a game with a bat and swing it a few times. That was the signal for other players in the vicinity to scatter. At some point he would start to swing it back and forth and start to growl something under his breath. He would swing more violently and began to say something like ‘I’m Ted Fu**kin Williams and nobody can get a pitch by me. That Son of a Bit*h is going to try, but who in the f**k does he think he is, I’m Ted Fu**kin Williams and nobody can hit a baseball like me.’ More of the same would come out and by the time he was done, it’s said he had a real combat rage going. Until that first AB, he was like some kind of possessed, semicontrolled maniac. A real Marine, I guess. I wasn’t there, of course, but given his public demeanor, and willingness to tell anyone to GFThemselves, it has the ring of truth. I heard a similar rendition from a kid from Martha’s Vineyard who lived in the dorm across the hall from me a few years later. Reminds of Wilson’s act, it’s just not a pitcher schtick though.

Lefty

Foothills:

I agree with this part of your response to me: “If he’s going to be a stud he needs to be tough and get it going this year. Although the batting average wasn’t there, there were plenty of at-bats that he can draw confidence from.”

I think the emotional makeup might be the biggest question about Belt going forward. Maybe he just got too much attention with Showtime and even his “Rook” blog and the Baby Giraffe hats.

Both can be true: The Giants mishandled him at points AND he needs to move on and learn from his experiences, not whine or hold a grudge. (I don’t know that HE is, but some of US do!)

Maybe it’s because I spend my life working with students around his age, but I see everyday how they are still in process of becoming who they are going to be. Encouraging words timely spoken can change lives at this stage. Being shot down and undermined can take years to recover from. (See: Smith, Alex)

Also, different people react differently. Few people are as Zen and together as Buster at his young age. Look at what a rough year Sandoval had at age 22-23. Good player development involves some psychology, I would think, but I’ll leave that to those of you who coach and work with youngsters.

http://www.gravatar.com ClutchUp

CC:

Ted Williams Story. Wow and thank you. That all fits. He WAS a gentleman as the years winded down. His radio commercial/HOF audio story that was created… (“Proud to be a Marine”) was chill bump city.

The early Ted story also fits with his middle finger salute (Rumor) to the Fenway crowd as he was circling the bases after his final HR.

Speaking of Runzler, I see in the Twitterverse that he’s getting married today. It’s an epidemic with the young guys this month–Brandon Crawford is next week, and Charlie Culberson just tied the knot a week or two ago.

http://www.gravatar.com ClutchUp

I guess Twitter can be wonderful or dreadful. I guess RHP Justin Fitzgerald started a fires storm about “Villalona back in our clubhouse” etc. Some people GUYS especially should take a breath before the hit send on Twitter like Ashton Kutcher and his take on Penn State.

Thanks for the matrimonial updates. I know my niece will be in mourning now that Crawford is off the “menu”…

http://channelclemente channelclemente

Fascinating interview with Bob Costas and Ted Williams. He credits Left O’Doul of Seal’s fame with the best advice he ever got on how to hit. Williams had a lifetime OBP of .483, how’s that even possible.

If we fans don’t watch out he is going to be a player that NEVER makes certain fans happy. He is NOT a finished product, not even close.

He MAY have been a kid who never swung wood enough in his youth ball adventures. He played at San Jacinto College as a left-handed pitcher and designated hitter before he went to the University of Texas. High school baseball was spent at Hudson High School in Lufkin, Texas. Born BKB in Nacogdoches, Texas. Nacogdoches ?!?! Can’t be all that bad coming from a town called Nacogdoches

-Selected by the Boston Red Sox in the 11th round of the 2006 MLB First-Year Player Draft.
-Selected by the Atlanta Braves in the 11th round of the 2007 MLB First-Year Player Draft.

Prediction: He is going to be a big time project offensively. Many fans will be impatient and will want to move him. The Giants decision making brass (including Steve Decker) will weigh in regarding his propensity to at times seem overmatched.

His 2011 treatment and perceived mental makeup will have NOTHING to do with it. It’s baseball like when Jason Heyward was being propped up as the Messiah for ATL.

Enjoy the good Brandon Belt brings and tolerate his roller coaster future. He is a Giant and a good one!

Lefty

Clutch,

It was Tyler LaTorre who said that in response to Fitzgerald saying “Villalona…”
LaTorre immediately followed up with the Tweet I quoted earlier about believing in second chances. I think maybe they forget they’re not just texting their buddies, and unlike Facebook, Tweets can be read by anyone.

I think the Giants take the Twitter thing pretty seriously. Sandoval got censored for saying (accurately) that Posey was out for the season before the team was ready to say that. He was off Twitter for awhile after that and resurfaced with a different handle.

If you’ve seen pix of Crawford and his fiancée, you’ll agree that they will make some good looking kids in due time.

walt kovacs

whats wacky about craw is that he is going to hawaii….tomorrow

who goes to hawaii before you get married?

btw…its kind of a tradition that ballplayers get married in november

season totally done, and doesnt affect winter ball or off season workouts

marry a ball player, and you can forget about being a june bride

walt kovacs

Lefty

forget good looking kids…they are gonna be popping out olympic athletes and lifetime giant fans

mitchvman

Panik, again really impressed!

While Crawford started to fall off the cliff again as he got more ABs in the AFL. Panik got stronger.

Look for an invite to spring training and an heir apparent to takeover for Jeff Kent over at Second!

2013 infielders,

Pablo 3b
Reyes SS
Panik 2b
Belt 1st

Gold glove caliber defense! All potential .300 hitters with power at the corners!

Nate’sFanMom

Wow, Barmes to the Pirates for 2yr/$11mil.

Looks like Sizemore is staying put.

So the queston is: Beltran? No Beltran and take our chances with Belt in LF? Or sign Beltran, trade Huff, and move Belt to 1B?

I don’t think Cuddyer is coming here. For the kind of money he is going to get, Beltran is a better option. Better hitter, too.

Nate’sFanMom

mvm–where do get that Jose Reyes is going to be here? There is absolutely no indication that’s a remote possiblity.

Desire is not proportionate to probability.

http://www.gravatar.com ClutchUp

Channel: Ted Williams being told by Lefty O’Doul “don’t ever let them change you kid…” (1) At 17 that might not have been a huge leap (2) That wasn’t a leap because #9′s mechanics were probably pure due to the fact that WILLIAMS never hit with a metal bat. (3) As you know Williams mental frame of mind was unparelled. Tougher than most and became even tougher due to his War Time Pilot Missions.

His Art and Science of Hitting was so appropriately named because MOST books that are written (just like newspaper articles) there is ANOTHER person who Headline Titles the authored piece. NOT Ted Williams: That was his hand picked title. Hitting is an Art (it can be taught) and it is Scientific (there are certain bonifide principles)

I once yellow highlighted this statement in Ted’s book. Hitters in the World/Globally who swing at Pitch ONE of their first at bat were hitting collectively .196. His famous: “You can’t hit what you haven’t seen” – is still valid to this day along with: “Get a good pitch to hit and Put a good swing on it”.

The trouble is, not many modern day hitters KNOW what either actually is. Gwynn and Bonds were the last one to follow that mantra 100%.

http://www.gravatar.com ClutchUp

@ Mitchvman….Jeff KENT….that was funny. I wish Kent was still a Gigante.

HOF baseball cap that he wears? Giants or…

Foothills Ryan

testing gravatar…

http://www.gravatar.com ClutchUp

Lefty: Thanks to the clarification on who said what regarding Villalona.

I dont do twitter or facebook. I made a $ bet in 2009 with another assistant coach who said I would cave in. Nope. My cell phone is not quite the ‘brick’ but close…

Did see the Crawford pics. Lot of female haters saying he could have done better. WoW haters come in any gender, size, shape, height, weight and mental capacity. She is gorgeous and you know about Brandon Stamos already

http://www.gravatar.com ClutchUp

John Wooden:

Don’t Confuse Activity For Achievement

—Damn: I was almost Barmes’ Agent next to Marty Lurie

walt kovacs

mitchvman

reyes is not gonna be a giant….please put down the crack pipe

and how exactly did craw “fall off the cliff”?

walt kovacs

ClutchUp

girls really commented on craw’s bride to be?

not only is she hot, but she is smart, talented and funny….and has a twin sister

http://www.gravatar.com ClutchUp

WoW Anti Lasorda’s Saturday Post when available will be 25 inches long.

http://www.gravatar.com ClutchUp

@ walt kovacs – Yep, will send in a few.

mitchvman

Nate 68.

Oh yee of little faith!

Do not be surprised. Stars are lining up. Por ejemple; The half/hearted looking for that “Band-Aid” SS. The steady decline of Crawford in the AFL which predicts his future and confirms his past. (All glove no bat)

Furthermore, there is “indication” everywhere. From every sports source. Just because the Giants are not saying it doesn’t make it so. That is, by the way, completely their MO. On the flip-side they have never said “no way”. For that matter they haven’t said that about Fielder either. My guess is they are waiting to see the market develop without them and then make a decision!

mitchvman

Clutch 70.

Kent obvious Giant hat! First off it is MLBs decision not the player. Secondly he played longer with the Giants than any other team. Third, His “success” was with the Giants as well. MVP, HR record for Second Basemen , etc.

I actually believe, in the wake of the Steroid era, he may just be a first balloter!

http://www.gravatar.com ClutchUp

@ Mitchvman:

Scary, you’re beginning to sound like he who shall not be named…when you state “Just because the Giants are not saying it doesn’t make it so”

After the initial success in the AFL (due to his seeing Major league pitching this year) he was figured out and slowly, dropped his average daily. Hence, “fall of the cliff”

I like the kid but let’s be honest. He is a very good fielder, a hometown boy and looks good in the Uni. He will NEVER hit and the Giants can’t afford to have him plugging up the lineup! (Unless they sign Fielder instead)

As far as Reyes, While you may believe that I am smoking crack you are certainly drinking the Kool-Aid!

The Giants are a LARGE Market Team PERIOD! They are trying their hardest to make everyone believe that they can’t afford big ticket guys. That is a complete farce.

Furthermore, it seems that Reyes price is not quite what everyone thought it would be. Instead of 6 yrs. 145, (ala C. Crawford) he could easily be had for 6yrs 100.

It’s a done deal re Barmes? Pirates for 2yrs/$11M? Seems that Pittsburgh paid more than market value, as I had him at $8-9M. Pirates have a lot of young players making minimum so it works for them. Wish we could have signed him.

Lefty

Mitch,

While I’d love to have Reyes’s bat and speed, I’ve never heard anyone say he’s GG caliber at SS. I guess if we had Reyes, Beltran, and Ross back, we could afford to give up a few more runs w/weaker defense!

mitchvman

Clutch 80.

Nooo! I am offended!

Everything I said is completely reasonable, logical. The Giants may completely stay their cheap selves and sign (an) O. Cab to a 3 year 20 million dollar deal. However, they are not seeming to bite on these 2nd, 3rd tier guys this year. Why not? Perhaps, they are lurking!

Remember, We are not a small market team and the only reason would be just what I said, cheapness!

Considering Crawford a comparable speed/skill asset to Reyes can be useful. If you can make that logical leap, that they have similar values toward their WAR, then a speed player like Reyes has more potential value, via longevity than a simple bat, like say Fielder, in a long term contract. The gospel according to Tangotiger.

Impressive kid. Wouldn’t be surprised to see him with San Jose in ’12.

http://channelclemente channelclemente

@CU,

my son calls him, the zombie guy.

snarkk

Where were the Giants media “insiders” on the Panda “bad left eye” story the past two years? Anybody paying attention knew he had some kind of eye issues in early season 2010 when he tried those goggles, etc., then we all guessed that whatever “it” was with his eyes may have contributed to his hitting falling off the cliff in 2010, along with his weight. Now, he says he’s had an eye problem since 2010, gets the surgery. Last offseason, Franchez got surgery on his shoulder outta the blue, no report for a month, now this. The “insiders” apparently need to get inside a little more…

http://www.gravatar.com ClutchUp

CC:

“Toting some Doors” with those wings on the side of his noggin’ he could save air fair and fly solo.

Also I love Dennis Haysbert aka Pedro Cerrano but there is something “just wrong” about the Mayhem guy on the Allstate commercials. A tad jolting if I might say…sipping my tea.

http://www.gravatar.com ClutchUp

Snark: Amen!

I was shocked at how much knowledge FSanchez shared on the KNBR Marty Lurie podcast.

Freddy mentioned stuff about himself that had NEVER been public before.

http://www.gravatar.com ClutchUp

Dinero: Oropresa very physical looking Frame. Me like

http://www.gravatar.com mccoveycovedave

Love MitchVman’s dream 2012 Giants line-up. That would be a dream come true!

http://www.gravatar.com ClutchUp

Dinero: So I watched him stroke a single to LCField. Leave the yard over the LCF fence and then stroke a base hit down the LF line.

Wow What is not to like about Oropress. Looks good in #33

RUMOR RUMOR – SF now back looking @ Rollins….

http://channelclemente channelclemente

At this point, just Cuddyer at 2B would be good news. It’s enough, more than enough.

Eff SC. Bruin here. Brandon Crawford represent! I was born and raised in Fullerton, so Gary Brown and Brett Pill represent. Would love to go back in time and try to walk on for the Bruin team. Was throwing low 80′s then, more 80 then 82 with some tenderness in the rotator cuff. But a few years ago I was feeling pretty strong and throwing 82-85 in a Fresno league. Would have been tough to get on that Bruin team which featured MLB players Jim Parque, Troy Glaus and Eric Byrnes. Doug DeCinces son was on that team as well. At any rate, Eff the trojans

walt kovacs

so how is oakland considered a small market team?

http://channelclemente channelclemente

Walt,

Wolf is Seligs old college frat buddy, just a guess?

walt kovacs

mitchvman

if giants get reyes, ill get you a case…and pour it personally

re oropresa

have watched a lot of vid on him…both in wood bat summer league and college…kid has a sweet swing, great upper body strength and a very good eye

his ceiling is def mlb

again….this was a very good draft for the giants

the didnt overspend and got some quality…and may have replaced some arms

they definitely drafted more for team, then for future trade chits

Lefty

Foothills,

I’m a UC prof and my daughter went to Cal, so I’m used to haters. ‘SC paid for my graduate education, so I’m loyal for life. It’s only right.

See you back here next week, right? Is Neuheisel gonna last much longer, do you think?

Oh, well, once they’re Giants, we love ‘em all.

http://en.gravatar.com/emails Foothills Ryan

Here it is: a 2012 payroll that includes a 3/33 contract for Jimmy Rollins

Now I’ve gone cheap in a few spots such as Gillaspie and Crawford at utility infielders. And this is hoping Pill can play left field. You can save a little by replacing Ramirez with Edlefsen. Salaries are from Cot’s contracts and arbitration estimates on MLBtraderumors.

testing for hgh…but as far as i know, there still isnt a great test….so watch for the fur to fly if someone gets busted

http://channelclemente channelclemente

Foothills,

you may have something with your Rollins speculation. I noticed the Phillies have set a more or less $10MM/year ceiling on his salary cap and moved Venezuelan SS phenom Freddy Galvis to the active roster. A message in the Rollins negotiations, perhaps. With the new MLB contract changing the Type A (which Rollins is) compensation formula (I’m not sure how), wonder what the impact would be on draft choice loses?

mitchvman

Walt 114.

Looking forward to it!

Imported of course!

http://en.gravatar.com/emails Foothills Ryan

Rollins’ roster cont’d…

you can have a Torres in there or Ross (RH Pop!) over Pill. But you get the picture. This is doable with the 130 million imposed budget.

there’s a then that needs to be a than above but nice this blog is not AR.

You can also take Rollins 11 out and put in 13 for Beltran and this can be done in that 135-140 range which I image is where an elastic 130 million dollar budget could stretch to.

Exciting as it unfolds. With Barmes signing in Pitt, the SS situation becomes cloudy. C’mon are they really going to go Crawford with Fontenot backing him up? Ryan Theriot? Cedeno ? Burriss ?

Lefty,

I’m not into the college rivalry thing. College Football is pretty grotesque. It is a nice minor league system for the NFL however. And USC is like AAA.

JD4SF

Lefty says:
November 19th, 2011 at 10:46 am
I think Belt got caught in the crossfire in a very challenging year for management. Defending the championship, Showtime, and the catastrophic injuries–Sabean, Bochy, et al. were in reactive/panic mode.
[...] If there’s a problem, deal with it. You have lots of options (see: Tejada, Miguel; Rowand, Aaron). Don’t publicly humiliate and undermine your players.
==========

+++++++

http://channelclemente channelclemente

Foothills,

the Giants are going to cap at $130MM hard. But, their might be a lot of flexibility in Rollins, as an example, to move $$’s into the out years, and relieve the current salary pressure.

Sansui-Sans Haiku Corner

Gimme some Jimmy!
Foothills roster I’m digging
‘cept owing Rowand…

Sansui-Sans Haiku Corner

Stupid Giraffe hats
Made the kid feel like a fool
…and play like one too

http://en.gravatar.com/emails Foothills Ryan

Read that SI link on the new agreement. Looks like all the minimum salaries players will get a bump from 435K to 480K.

Anything that levels the playing field for the Yankees and Red Sox is right with me. Anyway that they can be penalized for signing every type A or shelling out huge bonuses to international FA’s works for me. They should be taxed when their payroll exceeds a threshold and the tax going into a kitty for small market teams paying signing bonuses.

http://channelclemente channelclemente

What’s that weird change about FA pitchers ( A level) not requiring draft choice compensation, does that go for bench players as well, or is that exclusive to pitchers. That seems to help the Red Soxs and Yankees, if it’s just pitchers.

JustGuessing

After reading all of the above, from people with much better knowledge than I, my gut says:

#1 no-brainer by far: Trade Huff ASAP. My job involves shallow psychology and he’s done. If he stays, another season of him playing way too much while management hopes he’ll shame himself into waking up. Nope. And I really like the guy. If he’s opening day first baseman it will have very bad chemistry repercussions.

Panik is going to be a starter on the team someday.

Freddy, who has at times been my favorite player, is a total question mark: surgery on his throwing shoulder, the way he throws? Yikes.

I’m on the fence about Timmy being traded.

I don’t want a murderer on my team. I don’t care how good he is.

Reyes is not coming to the Giants.

JD4SF

On the Giants budget …
“The Giants, projecting a payroll of about $130 million next season, will need to draw at least 3.2 million to break even, one source said. The team, which drew nearly 3.4 million last season coming off its first World Series title, cannot afford much slippage.”

gravatar testing…. (works on WordPress w/o any kind of registration or login)

Foothills Ryan

oh well on the Gravatar for this site.

RE: trading Aubrey Huff. Seems the giants would have to eat about 8 million on that salary.

foothillsryan

final avatar test on this site. works on sfgiantsnirvana so I know the problem is with this site.

some folks do like Cedeno to hold fort at SS.

http://www.gravatar.com ClutchUp

Padres still trying to peddle their DP combo: Bartlett and O Hudson…

Phills talking to Grady Sizemore even tho Indians now want him back…

No more BJ Upton talk ala Giants…what happened to that…

Barmes: Must be all about the $. Pittsburg 3-4 years away…

I have my subliminal tape ready for bed…

Jimmy…Jimmy….Jimmy…Rollins…Rollins…Rollins….J_Ro coming ‘home’…

JD4SF

foothills -
If your gravatar is working elsewhere it should automatically appear here, too .. assuming the same log-in ID. If it wasn’t working here, other gravatars here wouldn’t be working. You have a mystery! Hoping a reboot will solve your problem.

I think a 2012 reboot / new season will also help the Giants tremendously. Time to relax, get the head together, and move forward like pros.

JD4SF

“murderer”
============
My ex-cop background just raised a red flag. I have no desire to become Blog Police, but I will mention that being charged with a crime – and later released – is not remotely the same as a convicted “murderer” status.

We can speculate, but have no FACTS other than Villalona was apparently charged and later released due to lack of evidence. Just because someone is charged doesn’t mean they are guilty.

I tend to be a “hang ‘em high” person, but also tend to wait for evidence and trial prior to the hanging.

Tahoe Dirt

Note to Mgmt- Please do not sign Beltran- He is just more of what’s been wrong with this team. We don’t need any more over paid, old, slow, over the hill, injury prone tired veterans- Did anyone else notice him dogging it on one of the last important plays of the season when he wouldn’t even go down or over to cut that ball off in the corner ??
Younger and Faster Please.

http://www.gravatar.com ClutchUp

JD4SF: ++++ on both. I’ve been communication with Foothills via email and he seems to be doing everything correct.

My only far fetched guess is that someone else already has is avatar registered. I think I remember McCoveyCoveDave having trouble today also; He was going to use a Roy Hobbs avatar and I remember al oha using it one time. Maybe I am on to something…

Villalona’s home country is corrupt. He either did it and his bonus $ paid off the more corrupt system or they “saw him coming” and decided to point the finger at him.

Personally I think he was set up. Young kid on leave from SF System to go home to see his mother….

@Tahoe Dirt: Many feel similar to you, but I like the way he rakes from both sides, just do not want him in RF. Every older Vet was young once and every Youngster gets old eventually…but not many get hit like Beltran.

foothillsryan

I’m still trying this and that such as reclearing cache and deleting my bookmark for this page. will try another image. But I want the Roy Hobbs carnival scene, ready to throw it by the Whammer. Mentioned I played some ball in a Fresno League. There was a guy whose team nicknamed him the Whammerm and true to form, he’d swing out of his shoes. When he’d hit it, it’d go 450 feet (alloy bats). Needless to say, he wasn’t someone you just challenged with the fastball. I’d run the fastball in on the hands or up in the zone for show, but mostly changeups and an occasional breaking ball in the dirt. I think I had the Whammer’s #, but it wasn’t for throwing it by the Whammer.

http://giants-prospect-watcher.blogspot.com/ Dinero

JD4SF November 19th, 2011 at 11:56 pm – +++++++ infinity.

The concepts of due process and innocent until proven guilty seem to be falling by the wayside in today’s immediate gratification society.

foothillsryan

changed my gravatar image from harddrive image of cowpie. change took hold immediately on giantsnirvana. if it doesn’t here, it’s not a surprise, this blog has had gliches in the past and its set up is pretty rudimentary.

As for due process. The Sandusky guy is pretty much guilty, right.? He’s not just guilty in the eyes of the public, but he’s being sentenced to castration in the vengeful heart of others. He hasn’t been to court but do you know anybody who say’s ‘innocent until proven guilty’?

http://channelclemente channelclemente

In the DR, murder has a rather loose connotation. For instances, resisting a kidnaping, by killing the kidnapper can be construed as ‘murder’ if the failed entrepeneur has paid all his police bribes and the kidnappers relatives are as upstanding commercial agents as the deceased. About all the verifiable facts support is Villalona can shoot straight, which argues for good hand eye coordination, I suppose. The DR ain’t Kansas, more like Deadwood.

Franco Harris came out for ‘innocent until proven guilty’ and he was fired promptly from his casino gig. Although, in truth he was supporting Paterno, and not Sandusky. I suppose either no one was molested or aliens did it, as an alternate theory of events. Maybe Sandusky will just hang himself in the closet and save all of us the angst of due process. Wait for the camera/no camera fight, that’ll be interesting with children involved. I blame McQuirey for not bashing in Sandusky or the aliens head with a dumbell or bat in 2002.

TitoMac

Tahoe Dirt

No did not see Beltran dog it.

Did Notice the facts.

.323 average .920 OPS for the Giants

Selected to the Alll Star game by the fans in right field 2011

Selected by the managers and coaches as a gold glove finalist in right field 2011.

TitoMac

Tahoe Dirt

Besides NatefanMom

Did Nate Schierholtz get a vote by the fans for right field in the all star game this year?

TitoMac

Its so funny how We tough guys can talk about murdering Sandusky with out all the eveidence and due process of the Law. And how we can convict and call Villalona a murderer with out all the eveidence and due process of the law.

Maybe Villalona was murdering a Sandusky. Would he not then be a hero in some of your books. hmmm

FUNNY! Sad and a sign of the times.

Know your maker?

Keep’n It Real

Buster Olney’s Blog Today (ESPN): The San Francisco Giants’ priority is to add an outfielder, but they’re having conversations about shortstops.

TitoMac

Who was that guy that came on here last year and Said Alex Smith was not the problem with the 49ers, but the solution.

Oh yeah that was me.

Alex Smith NFL MVP! GO 49ers!

IN Alex We Trust!

Walter Guest

As far as I’m concerned Villalona has a clean slate. There is no telling what happened there. He may have just been the richest man in the room.

I have worked in many countries. The laws and enforcement thereof can be uncertain. I know several Americans who were spirited out of a country overnight when a problem came up. In Northwest Iran, a friend of mine was driving some workers home in the back of a pickup. One of them jumped out when opposite his hut. Trouble is the truck was doing 60 and the guy was killed. That is manslaughter in Iran. My friend was out of the country that night. A similar thing happened in Peru.

Nate’sFanMom

Another sermon from the Rev. I(dio)t.

http://ezbeachbody.com Andrew Muncher

The following time I read a weblog, I hope that it doesnt disappoint me as a lot as this one. I mean, I know it was my choice to read, but I truly thought youd have something intriguing to say. All I hear is actually a bunch of whining about one thing that you may possibly fix really should you werent too busy looking for attention.

Walter Guest

Alex Burg is putting up slow-pitch softball numbers in Australia:

356/380/733/1.113

I have no idea how competitive it is but some pretty good players have come from there. With all hoopla given Timmy Joseph and Hector Sanchez at San Jose this season, Burg was by for the best hitting catcher, posting:

298/369/550/919

I’ve never seen the 23-year-old on a prospect list so maybe his fielding is atrocious

http://www.mercurynews.com @@Baggarly Commentatory

Hey Andy Mulcher…complain ALL you want, but we did not ASK you to link your cheesy web site to this site either.

BodyBuilding Sites are a dime a dozen.

Bad try for somebody who hardly ever IF ALL comes on this site.

ByeByeByeByeByeByeByeBye…

http://www.mercurynews.com @@Baggarly Commentatory

@ 1049, its a baseball blog…but of course your IQ is attached to what you post…

The Rev_Idiot aka Rev_Ike and his infamous PrayerCloth Sales. “Send me a dollar and I’ll send you a Swath of Prayer Cloth”.

Both were fraudulent as in Mail Order Legends in their Own Minds.

TitoMac

@@@@@@ Baggarly Commentatory

Your rude just like all the other click my name people on this Blog.

working for the Mercury suk that bad.

Your all kinda the same rude individual.

TitoMac

Clutchup can you teach me how to beg on the internet.

Please! JA @@@@ Baggarly Comentatory

TitoMac

So Ronny Cedeno has a lot of Nate Schierholtz in his DNA

Nate lets see the shortstop has the ball he is 10ft in front of me which way do I go oh heck I will run to him. Cause he can not go for a double play nobody on first. I know I know I am smart George. Maybe Ronny can come hold hands with me and Kevin Frandsen soon.

@Tito Mac: You’re full of it. Beltran was not selected to start the All-Star game by the fans; Bochy tabbed him as the starting RF after injuries affected the roster.

Also, if you payed attention to any of the games last year, it was pretty obvious that Beltran looked like an old man out there in RF and was clearly inferior when compared to Nate Schierholtz.

Yes, Beltran could really help this team in 2012, but don’t create lies in an attempt to prove your point.

http://giants-prospect-watcher.blogspot.com/ Dinero

Don’t feed the troll people.

http://giants-prospect-watcher.blogspot.com/ Dinero

RE: Alex Burg

First things first, Alex is actually 24, which is pretty old for a guy in A ball. Thing is, the great year he had for San Jose in 2011 really came out of nowhere, and — so far at least — is more an anomaly than the norm, even taking his college seasons into account. He’s never been considered a top prospect, being drafted in the 24th round of 2009.

I saw him play a couple times in San Jose, I was definitely impressed by his bat. I don’t recall being either impressed or dismayed by his defense. For those few games he must have been at least decent but not great.

He is definitely raking in the ABL right now though, he hit his fifth homer in just his 11th game for the Perth Heat.

I wish the kid all the best, I hope he can build on his success and make a run at the big leagues, but it is understandable why he has not been on any prospect lists to this point. If he can keep hitting like he is though, he’ll be on some of those lists soon.

http://www.gravatar.com ClutchUp

@ Dinero says:November 20th, 2011 at 8:09 pm

- Don’t feed the troll people.

*** The most powerful – 5 word post ++++++

Walter Guest

Dinero:

Burg’s baseball age this season was 23

Average age of position players at San Jose this year was 22.6.

As a 22-year-old he hit 245/331/443/774 for three teams so his 298/369/550/919 this year is not out of the blue but looks like natural progression.

It’s not great for a hitter’s park in a hitter’s league but he outhit the other catchers who seem to be held in higher esteem.

That was my point.

Jstreet

Please I beseech you! That means I really want you to do this. Don’t refer back to Tito Mac in any way shape or form. When you take his bait (subject matter, player reference, bigoted viewpoint, ad infinitum.,) you are then ceding the content of this blog to his state of mind. Which has shown repeatedly to be unbalanced, rhetorical and untruthful. Ultimately irrelevant. No big deal. But it is a big deal inasmuch as it steers the conversation around here towards the inane and insane, to the detriment if this fine forum. There is too much good commentary here to foster such idiocy. Band together and resist the urge to fight back with this party.

So again DO NOT FEED THE INSANE. They have enough to deal with.

JD4SF

ClutchUp says:
November 20th, 2011 at 12:35 am
My only far fetched guess is that someone else already has is avatar registered.
============
Suspect that is not an issue. It shouldn’t matter if 100 other people choose that same image, they should be able to do their own image upload under their own identity, regardless of any duplicate image or even duplicate image file name.

JD4SF

Dinero says:
November 20th, 2011 at 8:25 am
The concepts of due process and innocent until proven guilty seem to be falling by the wayside in today’s immediate gratification society.
====

Lots of stuff appears to be “falling by the wayside in today’s immediate gratification society.” You can apply a similar concept to baseball and how some fans view the players. For example, the player who fails to get that clutch hit may well get fan-bashed even hitting 3-4 in that game … it was that missed 4th many fans will remember.

I agree that only position players should win the MVP, but every once in awhile a pitcher’s season is so outstanding that he enters the discussion for MVP. That’s Verlander this year.

That being said, my first-place vote would be Adrian Gonzalez, closely followed by Miguel Cabrera and Jacoby Ellsbury.

Relief pitchers tend to get slighted in the CY vote, so maybe they deserve an opportunity in MVP.

totalfan62

@ JStreet, appx #168 at 2:20 AM: spot on, sir. Major ++++++

This post should be forwarded to Bud Geracie at SJMN/BANG, with requests to once and for all rid this great blog of the interminable pest. Thanks for saying it so well.

As suggested by Dinero: please do not feed the troll!

Lefty

I read that story about Verlander on MLB and thought it sounded a bit self-serving–not to mention irrelevant given that the voting happened weeks ago!

As to the substance, I think the pitchers have their own award. Totalfan’s point about relievers is well-taken, but maybe they should have their own award within these prestigious postseason categories. Starters and relievers are apples and oranges, but relievers are incredibly important.

http://channelclemente channelclemente

Of all the ‘facts’ about Verlander’s season, the one that got me was, he had 16 stops, where he ended a 2+ game losing streak and got a win to strat a 2+ game winning streak. If so, that’s a remarkable, bigger than WAR, stat.

http://channelclemente channelclemente

Avatars,

I found out over at Spalsh, that an avatar has to undergo a copyright search that can, depending on the image, take up to 7-10 days to complete.

no more worries about the Avatar, works on most sites so I’m not totally incompetent.

Are the Giants interested in Jason Bartlett this time around for 1 year and 5.5? Probably won’t take a real prospect to swing that deal.

Don’t hear much about Furcal but he could be a difference maker at leadoff and SS.

http://www.gravatar.com ClutchUp

Lefty – TotalFan and Others:

The once was a “Rolaids Fireman of the Year” award. Think it went to guys like Suiter, Fingers, Lee Smith and Danny Frisella back in the day. There should be a Yearly award (if there is not already).

I don’t feel Verlander should get both awards this year. MVP type years IMHO for Starting Pitchers or Relief Pitchers have to be more like Koufax or Eckersley (tho I did not agree with Eck’s award either)

I will go Ellsbury, Cabrera and Granderson.

Good luck on the I.T. department at the Merc. Andy, Jon Becker, Carl, Alex Pavlovic and Bud have no time to hire a Live Moderator. When they did guys like Sargento aka Rkstr were banned. The Only automatic Moderation occurs now with Double Links or words spelled correctly like shi**y or bi*ch.

Pretty sad than this violator “just doesn’t talk ball or strategy”. Many have CLEARLY supported Beltran’s baseball accomplishments BOTH past and current and most ALL agree that he is the BEST current switch-hitter in the game. Although his demeanor has upset me and many others, it is clear with mild investigation that his past and current teammates say he is a solid teammate and well liked within the clubhouse INSPITE of how we (think) we have observed him sitting aloofly in the dugout. At this point, IMO, the two major concerns are the health of both knees and because of that only, his perceived range in RF at ATT. I am not sure it would be healthy for him to play RF and then on his and the clubs built in rest days = insert Nate into RF, because baseball being what it is, there is then going to be some awkward moments once again. Leaving the East Coast to play on the West Coast in 2011 may have made Carlos seem even more introverted to US fans. Letting it play out is going to be the only way the real truth of the matter is clarified. As much as I chimed in about how I perceived his worth to the club in 2011 – I would gladly turn the page. With Beltran IN THE BATTING ORDER and IN LF we have a much better chance to advance to post season in 2012.

http://www.gravatar.com ClutchUp

@ Foothills: Finally and nice Avatar!

I know AntiLasorda also LOVES that line in the movie: “Pick Me Out a Good One, Bobby”.

The number of wins when he started for his team was 16 over .500 the rest of the starting pitchers combined record of club when they started was 12 over .500

That is down right valuable.

Talk about win day.

IEE YIE YIE!

MOST VALUALBLE!

Foothills Ryan

ClutchUp says:
November 21st, 2011 at 11:00 am

@ Foothills: Finally and nice Avatar!

That doesn’t mean you can see it here , right? I can’t. And yes, great avatar, cropped it myself.

Bartlett anybody ? Furcal ? Quiet on the Rafael front. Not sure why…

http://www.gravatar.com ClutchUp

Ryan: Your Avatar is Up and Running and Is visible (to me)

Come out of the Foothills, maybe the reception is poor (kidding)

http://www.gravatar.com ClutchUp

—There are eight teams chasing Furcal, four of them want Furcal at second base and four are interested in him at shortstop. Interest is heavy enough that the veteran should be able to get a deal to play shortstop.

—The Tigers, Blue Jays, and Rockies all like him at second base. He is believed to be seeking a three-year deal, with two years and an option a possibility.

—The idea of a multiyear free agent deal for Furcal at the time of his July 31st trade to St. Louis was laughable, given his health issues. 217 decent plate appearances for the Cards may have changed that, in the same way that a short stint after a trade earned Aaron Hill a two-year, $11MM contract.

—The Brewers have some level of interest in Furcal for their shortstop opening, and the Rockies, Tigers, and Blue Jays checked in on him as a second baseman.

http://www.gravatar.com ClutchUp

Remember how different the Lineups were on the last two Opening Days compared to the End of Season(s)

Furcal has stated he wants to be in St Louis, No free agent has laid there cards on the table like Furcal has and stated St Louis is the best stop he has ever had in baseball. compared to Atlanta and LA.

Its going to take a whole lot of over bidding to pull him away from there.

Bartlett a .615 OPS in SD last year really you want that? It would have to be in a way buy low scenario. I see his 2009 year. He has never come close to that year. I think he is closer to somethng in the middle of his Career numbers and last year .685 OPS .320 OBP that would be a very minamal upgrade but none the less an upgrade along with solid defender. again it would have to be a buy low scenario.

With Bartlett you would be again pissing off your Crawford youth movement fan base. why create that scenario with a marginal upgrade. Thou Bartlett much better then Crawford at this point in thier careers.

Foothills Ryan

Am out of the foothills and on the valley floor. Right by the Kings River. What gives? As long as you can see it, that is all that matters. You will know my comments are coming at you like a Roy Hobbs fastball at a train-stop carnival.

Nice little synopsis on Furcal activity and rumors. With the steep inflation on middle/utility infielders, the Giants would be wise to go with Crawford at short and back him up with Fontenot and/or Burriss. Tender and trade Keppinger for some middling AAA arm.

http://www.gravatar.com ClutchUp

It is very visable to me Ry.

TitoMac

clutchup

The click my name and sign up for an avatar supporting your crack habit also?

TitoMac

clutchup

The click my name and sign up for an avatar supporting your crack habit also?

If it was not coming fromw such a shady character as yourself, I would not say anything but you have a track record of deception.

Warning to all gravatars are away of following your internet use and patterns. so you may be spamed accordingly.

Well said, Ryan. UCD signs my paychecks, too, and I haven’t slept much since Friday. Enjoyed watching my two football teams win this weekend, but other than that have been too exhausted and too upset to think very clearly.

Back to baseball: Ugh, I really don’t want Furcal. He seems like exactly the kind of SS we keep signing over and over–we pay too much and they’re either injured (Renteria) and/or underperform (Tejada and O. Cabrera). If the difference between Furcal and Crawford is one win, I’d rather save the money and buy that win somewhere else (fifth starter? corner outfielder?). At least Crawford is young and maybe he’ll keep developing. Furcal is what he is, injury-prone, and on the downward slide of his skills. (Same with Rollins, I guess, but he has more upside IMO–knows how to win and maybe a return to the Bay would invigorate him.)

http://channelclemente channelclemente

Foothills,

you know when I was looking at the ‘pepper spray’ film, I wondered something similar. I lived in Davis for a while and found that community among the friendliest and most accomodating I’ve lived in in CA. I was reminded of that trip into darkness that a group of Berkeley professors made back in the early 1950′s, trying to explain the behavior of a civilized societ,y such as the German’s were believed to have, pre-Hitler. It was called The Authoritarian Personality, as I recall. Among it many proscriptions was, it’s in us all to behave as a ‘German’, and to remember that fact is, in part, the prescription for never letting it out.

I know this, you better be committed deeply to non-violence if you participate in OWS. You will, it seems, be tested mightily, in the name of civil order.

ClutchUp

Ryan: Amen…You and Lefty may have common ground. She teaches at UC Davis or is it Sac State?

Looks like several UCD people are on Admin. Leave and the Chancellor may step down or need to. The guy using Pepper Spray “like he was using bug repellant in his back yard”…. should be dismissed from Law Enforcement…ASAP and forever.

I teach at UCD, but before that I was at Sac State for 18 years. We’ve lived in Davis for the past 20 years. Some of those kids sprayed like insects on the quad may have been there for Picnic Day with my kids growing up.

ClutchUp

Lefty:

I don’t agree with “Everything_Occupy”, but that vid was disgusting.

Baseball wise – One of my former players plays for the Varsity. Good kid who has improved a TON. Starting Catcher for Matt Vaughn.

http://channelclemente channelclemente

Sometimes you wonder if being a being a traditional fan and reality just isn’t more than most people can balance. I read this about the Penn State craziness, and I have to admit, I just shook my head with disbelief.

I don’t necessarily get everything about “Occupy,” either. Cool about your player, and I hope he has a good experience here. Go Ags!

JD4SF

- I think it is fair to say of the UCD situation that there were some poor decisions made by many involved. Kudos to the students and participating faculty for keeping it non-violent under duress. I’m remembering tear gas used at UC Berkeley 4 decades ago during activist demonstrations that became riots …

Flip side is (per article) a warning was made to disperse or pepper spray would be used, so those students made personal decisions that had consequences. But IMO the incident should never have reached that point of escalation.

- Foothills – I still don’t see your gravatar, but it is promising that Clutch does.

- Not sure that I support pitchers in MVP since they have their own position MVP, but Verlander’s value just jumped with that additional recognition.

Walter Guest

Meanwhile, speaking of baseball and speaking of catchers, our catching corps at Salem-Keizer intrigued me. To put it in perspective, the low A Northwest league was an extreme pitching league with an OPS of .704. But it also is a short-season league so any numbers put up could be regarded too small a sample. So I decided to combine the numbers of all three catchers (Dan Burkhart, Mike Murray and Joe Staley) to see what they’d look like.

Together they had just about the equivalent of a full season with 543 ABs. They had 33 doubles 18 homers and 99 RBIs. The hitting line was:

302/374/462/836

That gave them an OPS+ of 1.188. That is excellent for catchers.

A smart organization would take the best hitter and concentrate on making a good catcher out of him. Knowing the Giants, they will take the best hitter and convert him to 1st baxe.

http://giantspipeline.com Dinero

Nice info Walter, thanks.

Jeez the Giants sure seem to be loaded with good catching prospects, and Susac hasn’t even gotten into the mix yet. Seems like they are going to need to convert a couple guys to 1B. Either that or trade a couple of ‘em.

http://giantspipeline.com Dinero

Joe Nathan going to the Rangers according to MLBTR. I thought he wanted to be a closer. I’m pretty sure that job is taken in Texas. Well, I’m happy for him that he got signed on somewhere anyway.

Lefty

JD4SF,

Definitely various people made bad decisions. The campus police were in violation of written UC police policy that states the use of pepper spray (and the like) is only for self-defense or for keeping bystanders from getting hurt. That was clearly not the case here.

I just posted a comment on Facebook saying that I found the vitriolic demonizing of the UCD chancellor deeply troubling, as well. I expect to lose virtual (FB) friends over this and maybe even some real ones.

On this baseball blog, we keep pleading with each other for civil discourse, and it’s a worthy fight. If we can’t have a conversation about ANYTHING without insults and name-calling, what kind of a society have we become?

OK, off the professorial soapbox. On a lighter note, I loved this:

- Foothills – I still don’t see your gravatar, but it is promising that Clutch does.

So…Clutch…do you “see” a lot of things that other people can’t?!

Bapah

I see stupid people.

GFaninTx

@Dinero
Word on the ranger beat is that Feliz will be moved to starter therfore Nathan will be the closer

JD4SF

Lefty says:
November 21st, 2011 at 5:13 pm
JD4SF,
On a lighter note, I loved this:

- Foothills – I still don’t see your gravatar, but it is promising that Clutch does.

So…Clutch…do you “see” a lot of things that other people can’t?!
======

LOL! Great question!
Something in the water? in the air? inhaled? imbibed? magic? superpower? The EYE has expanded capabilities???

I agree that attacks on the chancellor are not justified. However, the buck does have to stop somewhere and she should be out of her job.

As far as discourse here, it really has come a long way. The majority of posts are relevant. If someone goes off base, it’s still the internet afterall. Maybe Tito needs a hug now and then. I think by and large, he has come a long way and should be lauded for his efforts to engage in civil discourse.

Some baseball blog this is. Maybe the hot stove should heat up.

RE : catchers in the system. Definitely a strength. I have Tommy Joseph as a major trade chip to fetch an outfield bat (Quentin) at the deadline while Beltran is playing in Boston.

http://channelclemente channelclemente

Foot,

so is there any news out of Chicagoland on whether new, new wunderkindt will continue shopping Soto?

Well, I am staring at the small little tiny pic of RobertRedford_RoyHobbs rocking back on his rear foot with his front foot up in the air, dressed in a vest and trousers w/white long sleeve shirt…(not sure if that is the Ferris Wheel in the back)

—The only funny thing from MY end is that Hobbs is throwing the baseball at the Carnival right handed and I had thought in the movie Hobbs threw left-handed.

—I don’t have “Favorites” on my computer. Every time I log on I just go to Googe and type in baggs…and up comes the site.

Lefty, have you “refreshed” the page and done all the computer gizmo things that I personally don’t understand?

Foothills Ryan

my avatar only showing up on Clutch’s screen is weird. Isn’t there an IT person in the house. C’mon, take a break from WOW and help us out. Help out the merc. I kid the computer savants.

Roy Hobbs throwing from the right, tearing the cover off the ball from the left side. I need to buy that movie, it’s pathetic I don’t have it. Have been watching the show Damages and it’s to funny recall the virtuous Glenn Close’s character, Iris Gaines. Here’ a poignant line:

Iris Gaines: You know, I believe we have two lives.
Roy Hobbs: How… what do you mean?
Iris Gaines: The life we learn with and the life we live with after that.

This talk of the Natural makes me miss watching Buster Posey. He’s got that quality. If he’s back strong and healthy does he hit .300/.360/.500 with about 25 bombs? Possibly.

http://www.gravatar.com ClutchUp

Foothills, Lefty et al….

I am spooked now. Just got home from after work dinner and my home PC has NO Foothills Avatar and No McCoveyCoveDave.

The most common cause for this issue is the e-mail address case. Gravatar uses lowercase e-mails exclusively for serving content, so an md5 hash of FOO @ BAR.COM is not the same as foo @ bar.com. In php, try md5(strtolower($email)); (adapt for other languages) The gravatar verification check tool might prove useful.

http://giants-prospect-watcher.blogspot.com/ Dinero

I also never saw an avatar for Foothills. I’m an engineer and I honestly don’t know how it could have possibly shown up for one person and not another — not saying you are lying CU, just don’t get it.

ClutchUp says:
November 21st, 2011 at 10:25 pm
Foothills, Lefty et al….
I am spooked now. Just got home from after work dinner and my home PC has NO Foothills Avatar and No McCoveyCoveDave.
======

[humming the theme music from Twilightt Zone]

Foothills Ryan

I’m so glad I started an obsession with the avatar issue. Rod Serling has some material to work with here. However, I’m not concerned as I put all the blame on the funky web engineering this site has. The avatar works perfectly fine on other sites such as Fangraphs, Baycityball, SFGiantsNirvana, etc. So it’s not me. I’ve cleared the cache and erased bookmarks, closed firefox etc. It’s this site. As with the reloading page to update issue, and the all bold case incident, this site has issues. It needs a total overhaul; specifically the ability to reply to invidiual posts. I don’t know if it needs thumbs up or down, but definitely some reply action.

Foothills Ryan

Chris Haft’s mailbox is like slow pitch softball, but I like his Beltran answer. I didn’t see him with the ice bags on the knees. I’m started to come around on Beltran being a liablity. He was probably fortunate to stay healthy enough to rake and get himself the forthcoming 3/40 mil contract from the Red Sox.

Channelclemente,

you asked about Boy Genius shopping Soto. Doubt it. They’ve got to have some core of talent or nobody will come. There’s talk of them shopping Garza. They should hang on to their talent and see what happens in the central. They could collect a nice bounty at the trade deadline. You just never know, they may be in the hunt and looking for an upgrade.

Bapah

Foothills,
It shows up on mine and has for a few days now.

TitoMac

Baseball news is slow when you start talking Chris Haft

YAAAWWWWWWWWNNNNNNNNN!

totalfan62

Been thinking more about the pitchers eligible for MVP thing since Verlander won. I actually like the ambiguity of MLB’s MVP award. It’s not just about statistics and numbers–there’s the intangible element that is an integral part of baseball.

Every fifth day the Tigers knew that Verlander would almost certainly give them a plus-quality start, giving the bullpen a day off (for the most part) and fulfilling the role of the true stopper. The positive after-effect of his starts had additional value to the entire staff and team.

It is rare that a starting pitcher would be a viable MVP candidate, but I think he deserved it. Koufax in ’63, McLain and Gibson in ’68 were other good examples of that same thought process.

Also agree that the Rolaids (or whatever sponsor) Fireman of the Year award should be a more high-profile and prestigious award, so that closers (and maybe a great set-up man) have a chance to win a big award limited to just that group of players.

Lefty

I actually like Chris Haft’s stuff and really enjoyed his co-authored book on the 2010 Giants. I think we forget that these beat writers have to interact with the team everyday; if they’re too aggressive, the players and management won’t “play ball” with them, and then their livelihood is on the line. They’re beat reporters, not Woodward and Bernstein.

There were some interesting topics in the mailbox. I’ll comment on the two that caught my eye the most:

1) Heath Hembree as future closer: Grant Brisbee at McCovey Chronicles made a thoughtful argument a day or two ago against the Giants ever signing Wilson to any long-term deal. I have mixed feelings. I’m excited about Hembree and looking forward to seeing how he develops. Dinero, I assume you watched him in SJ; your thoughts?

However, after watching one closer after another melt down in the 2011 postseason, I have renewed appreciation for our Brian “XXL Chalupa” Wilson and his 2010 accomplishments. In recent years, I can only think of Lidge in 2008 and, of course, the peerless Mariano Rivera as comparable. If you want to be the closer for an elite team in the hunt every year, it may not be enough to get 40+ saves and get your team into the playoffs–you have to have the mental/emotional makeup to get the job done once you’re there in October. It’s hard to predict who will and won’t be able to handle that among young closers. We know already about Wilson.

2) Moving Posey to another position: Well, moving him back to SS is ridiculous for all the reasons Haft enumerated. But with so much organizational depth at catcher, is it better for the team to have Posey move to another position (for his bat) and groom one (or two) of the other youngsters to be the catcher?

The jury’s out on that for me, too. Posey is such a GOOD catcher. If it turns out that someone else can be just as good defensively and at calling games AND Posey can thrive at 1B or 3B or RF, then it could be a win-win, especially with Buster’s injury.

However, I think Haft makes a really good point about not forcing Posey to change positions YET. Not only is he coming back from a very serious injury, we must remember he hasn’t even quite played a full year in the major leagues yet. If anyone can handle it, Buster probably can, but no need to put extra pressure on him to learn a new position until Joseph or Hector or Susac are closer to ML-ready.

ClutchUp

The dynamics of Posey returning to his catching spot is far reaching. This is a kid/phenom that converted from SS to C at Florida State solely because head coach Mike Martin’s son, Mike Jr. went up to his dad and said “we NEED a catcher”. Buster then went from an All American Freshman SS to catching all 62 college games for Florida State.

As a Giant catcher, he became a TRUE receiver versus just a ball blocker and thrower. His 2010 growth was remarkable because of his athletic DNA, listening to Bengie and his past work with Steve Decker.

His intangibles were thrust into the forefront when Giant advance scout Steve Balboni stated how remarkably that Buster assimilated TONS and TONS of knowledge on the Braves – Phillies and Rangers. Much of THAT story (Balboni) came out late and reluctantly by Giant Insiders.

I say the change to another position should have 90% input from Buster and 10% from the SF Organization. It “will be like” – whenever Buster eventually retires from the game – I predict he will leave on his own terms and 12-15 yrs down the line he will know that exact moment better than any person off writing or speculating about the decision.

Verlander: OK, not all those writers/voters can be wrong so HipHip. I just have a personal belief that (for example) guys like Fielder who make “162 Starts”…can impact the game more than someone who starts 35 games. Do I know how many games Detroit won – when he started? Yes, so Bravo to Verlander.

Chris Haft: One of the Best of his particular Craft.

Wilson: Ultimately there is more to the story. He fell in love with some of the movement on various Lincecum’s pitches and dabbled with different grips and arm slots. Let us NOT forget that bull pen guys do a TON of side work during the season; Long Toss, Bullpens, Core Work and run the stairs at ATT. The soreness in Wilson’s elbow was probably there most of the season but Brian is not the greatest communicator to the trainers according to Head Athletic Trainer Dave Groeschner.

Willie’s bullpen success came after an early minor league go at being a starter and by his admission he was putrid. I would take 93-94 with more accuracy than I would with his 95-96 with occasional loss of location. Similar to Buster, Wilson probably knows where his own health stands better than the SF Med Staff.

Foothills Ryan

Closers are fungible. Relievers are volatile. It’s a grueling job having to be ready to go with your best stuff just about every night. It’s also possible we may have seen the last of Wilson. We don’t know what’s really going on with that elbow. Hoping for the best, but it’s wise to prepare for the worst. If he’s healthy and strong, he’s not a FA until 2014, but paying 10+ mil for a closer seems like a luxury, he could bring in a nice prospect haul. Time to groom the heir. Casilla did a great job of filling in last year.

The thing about the Giants catching depth is that they all have a long way to go before becoming an everyday MLB catcher. Hector is projected to be backup material. I think the depth at C gives the Giants some leverage where the rest of the league is thin.

ClutchUp

F_Ryan:

Re: Boy Genius shopping Soto.

Theo is ‘considering’ letting Zambrano come back, so I would not put anything past Epstein.

Theo has reached out to Steve Bartman to lip sync one of Harry Carey’s Take me out to the Ballgame.

Foothills Ryan

oh snap I thought for sure Kemp was going to win. Wow!

ClutchUp

IMO…If Whitey or Stew could attempt to fill in 24/7 for Posey in 2011 – then sooner hopefully then later, Hector can do it with on the job training. There MIGHT be a tradeoff of the knowledge base regarding learning the league/hitters, but I am ready for the eventual experiment.

Fact is the Giants Pitching staff from top to bottom DO NOT hold runners on very well at ALL. It is time that Rags – Gardy and the 12 pitchers start to OWN it somewhat. Bumgarner has some Andy Pettite in him but MOST if not ALL of the relievers are poor at controlling the running game.

Enter Stewart and he deodorizes the issue.

ClutchUp

More politics. Writers not wanting two Dodgers to revel.

Braun’s Brewers went to post season. What a coincidence in that – that is NOT supposed to matter.

Congrats to Braun. Kemp will win it 2-3 times in his career.

Foothills Ryan

“Kemp will win it 2-3 times in his career.”

No he won’t. He’ll be fortunate to win one. Let’s see him put together two seasons like last first. Oh and let’s see how he performs now that he has the extension. Just sayin…

JD4SF

A bit of history in 2012 …
Sat, 6/2 , Giants vs. Cubs: Turn Back the Century Game (both teams will be wearing uniforms styled from 1912)

Lefty

I thought Kemp would win, too. Can’t say I’m boo-hooing about a Fodger missing out. Braun is also extremely deserving, and HIS team won the division. The Panda got a 7th and 8th place vote. I won’t be surprised if at least one of them was Schulman. IMO, Sandoval deserved the recognition. The Giants won 86 games (somehow), and Sandoval was BY FAR the best position player. It’s the same kind of respect our rotation got with the Cy Young voting.

Clutch: Watching Stew gun down baserunners (“Bang, bang, I shot you down”) was one of the few pleasures of the last two months of the season. Posey’s really good at that, too, but Stewart is just so FAST! I wish somehow he could be on the roster for late innings or teams with a lot of rabbits or Posey’s days off from catching–especially since Stew works really well with Lincecum. But with the offensive woes, it may be a luxury the Gs can’t afford on the 25-man roster.

Also agree with your comments about Posey. The thing with him is he’s seriously SMART–he was a great student in high school and college, and it appears he’s working on his Ph.D. in studying hitters and his own pitchers. Another year or two, Lord willing and his leg holding up, and he’ll be Dr. Buster and a perennial All-Star at the position. Love that guy!

I never weighed in on the baseball movies. Can I add one to the list? I really loved the HBO movie “61″–or is that cheating because it’s not fiction? Of the other ones:

1) The Natural
2) Bull Durham
3) Field of Dreams

I’m contemplating designing a freshman (elective) seminar at UCD called “Baseball Across the Curriculum”–each week would look at how baseball interacts with various academic fields (law, business, science, race/justice, literature, film…).

ClutchUp

Kemp Clarification…Ok, I’ll put it differently. His MVP moment will/may/could come before his career is done.

Makes me wonder what MLB would be like if the whole Andy Messersmith, Catfish Hunter and Curt Flood era’s had turned out differently in our judicial system.

Lefty

P.S. I agree with Foothills about Kemp. I predict either Kemp or the Dodgers or both are going to come to regret that eight-year deal. Kemp had a great year in 2011, but let’s not forget what a disappointment and attitude problem he was in 2010.

ClutchUp

Lefty @1124 +++++++++++

Kudos to Posey if he adds PHD to his resume. What a novel idea although probably not the first (Posey-PHD) most ball players from the past were street smart rather than book smart. Times have surely changed in the last 20 years with most players having played college ball.

It is FUN to read Posey’s Florida State Bio. One thing that really stuck OUT was him being World Wood Bat Association top 15 prospect out of HS which means he NEVER had to adjust from metal to wood like so many do. And as Lefty intimated was ranked as 4th best student out of 302 at his HS.

Matt Kemp’s attitude: That is one of the HUGE reasons that Colletti, Mattingly and lol probably Lasorda retrieved Davey Lopes back from the Phills to return to the Fodger Fold. Under Lopes tough love, Kemp had to fish and cut bait.

Probably hurt his pride (or hers) but parting with Rihanna was probably another move towards more stability…

ClutchUp

I have to laugh at how many times the word EX is placed in front of someones name, but it never keeps the photo from being displayed as in the ex-girl friend or ex-wife of _____________ (some athlete)

Kemp could win those 2-3 MVP’s after all and cement his place as one of the greats of this generation, but I see him regressing some. I could just as easily see a .280/.360/.540 season which is still great, but a line that Posey or Belt could put up. Sandoval would have a smaller gap between avg. and OBP.

Foothills Ryan

Lefty,
I like the Baseball spectrum course idea. Good place to weave in some statistics as well. Can cover regressions, small sample sizes, weighted averages and predictability of stats.

I also agree with Haft about switching Posey’s position in 2012 — seems like a really bad idea. It does make sense down the road a bit though, maybe even as early as 2013. I don’t see Posey playing 3B or SS, however. Certainly not on any consistent basis or for any real length of time. So that leaves 1B, which leaves even more questions.

What about Belt? He’s a decent OF, but he has the potential to be a gold glover at 1B.

Seems like, before too long here, there’s going to be a real logjam between C and 1B. I wouldn’t be shocked to see a couple guys traded at some point.

Take Hector, for example. The way that guy is hitting, and the progress he has made as a receiver, he’s going to need to be an everyday backstop by 2013 IMO. If he’s the everyday C, that leaves Belt and Posey battling for 1B. Don’t want to leave either one of them out, either. Seems like Hector would be nice trade bait, especially considering all the guys coming up behind him.

ClutchUp

Foothills Ryan says: November 22nd, 2011 at 11:54 am 257..Lefty,
I like the Baseball spectrum course idea. Good place to weave in some statistics as well. Can cover regressions, small sample sizes, weighted averages and predictability of stats.

Now now, Lefty has to compose a curriculum that appeals to the aspiration of higher education. Think of it from the business angle. You’ve go to know how to evaluate your assets. You’ve got to know whether or not your metrics are valid indicators of future performance. You’ve got to develop new assets. Can discuss Branch Rickey and the advent of the farm. Go into Marvin Miller, Curt Flood and free agency. Would be great !!

ClutchUp

@Foothills Ryan

Hmmmm….I best sign up for that class. How many credits I wonder?

How about the aeronautical engineer (YouTube) whose wife responded on Baggs last week…as a guest speaker…

I think he now resides “up that way”…

Lefty

Clutch: Susac is from Roseville and played HS ball at Jesuit in Sacramento. As you probably know, he went to college at Oregon State. Pedroia is from Woodland (just 10 min. north of Davis).

Still don’t see Foothills’ avatar–sorry.

Everyone: When I get around to drafting the course proposal, I’ll post the list of topics for your input. That would be great! And Foothills, absolutely there will be (at least) a week on stats/Moneyball. I’ve actually been thinking about this for quite awhile. Freshman seminars are fun one-hour a week electives where the freshmen get to have a small class (19) on a topic the prof is passionate about(!). You have to make some kind of academic connection, of course. It’s an extra (overload) for the prof–you get a bit of travel money, but it doesn’t take you away from your usual duties.

I taught one last year called “Sex and the Soul,” and you won’t be stunned to hear that it filled up and had a waiting list in no time!

JD4SF

Dinero says:
November 22nd, 2011 at 11:57 am
Seems like, before too long here, there’s going to be a real logjam between C and 1B. I wouldn’t be shocked to see a couple guys traded at some point.
=====

+++++

http://channelclemente channelclemente

Lefty,

I understand that “The Book” is available at a student discount price on Kindle. That and a copy of Dixon and Massey’s stat book ought to do the trick.

http://channelclemente channelclemente

Lefty,

you should also put it out on the grapevine in Davis that high butterfat milk is the appropriate solvent for pepper spray washing of the eye, not water.

http://channelclemente channelclemente

Foothill,

I’m of the opinion baseball is a little like viticulture and enology, the application of a pinch of science and a dash of mathematics can only help. Just think, one day there will be a two buck chuck version of baseball, oh, sorry, that’s the Oakland A’s, isn’t it.

http://channelclemente channelclemente

Foothill,

if you can induce Bradley Woodrum out of Chinatown in Chicago for a visit, He writes for Fangraph and he’s also an economist by trade.

http://channelclemente channelclemente

What does Yonder Alonso, in the Reds system look like to you guys. They are desparately looking for a closer and this kids swings a pretty effective bat. I heard the A’s might give up Andrew Bailey for him.

Believe Alonso was in Posey’s draft class, taken a couple picks after him.

Nice little 100 AB’s in the bigs last year but you know what they say about SSS. Hear lots good things about his swing. The power is not there, but not afraid of the BB.

I would think Alonso for Bailey would be an overpay on the Reds part. Maybe Alonso for Gonzalez.

Anti-Lasorda

Belt is the trade bait for 1B. Low round draft choice, the club shows impatience for his ups and downs. A couple of Belts into the cove and he’ll be shopped to clear out for Buster…..

See Clutch, not too long. Barmes means the middle infield options are either high end.. or Cedeno… I’m inclined to think more of the Cedeno variety…..

Be interesting to see the tendet decidions tommorrow….we’ll know a lot more then.

I’m guessing Torres, Fonty, Rameriez all get tendered. I wouldn’t have said that a month ago…..

Walter Guest

About baseball movies, I have mixed feelings about “The Natural.” I had read the book years before and they changed the ending so radically that it put me off.

In one of my lives I was a failed screenwriter. The only movie I wrote that went into production was never finished, this after they changed my script extensively.

I talked to Brian Garfield about that. He told me that it bothered him so much that they changed his story for “Death Wish” (Charles Bronson) that he decided to produce “Hopscotch” ( Walter Mathau, Glenda Jackson) himself. He went on to say that they inserted a segment in “Hopscotch” that wasn’t in the book (the part where Mathau rents his boss’s house that then gets shot up). He told me this with a straight face, evidently not seeing the irony. There is no doubt the insertion of that segment improved the story. In Garfield’s novel, “Death Wish”, the Bronson character is not portrayed as such a clean, do-gooder vigilante as the movie made him to be. The movie script probably improved the story and made Garfield wealthy when it led to four sequels.

There is no doubt in my mind that the changed ending improved “The Natural.” It became the signature. The original ending was kinda weird, probably reflecting the writer’s loser life or his losing view of life.

But the book had been fixed in my mind and with my own experience with tampered stories; I still have mixed feelings about the movie.

Foothills Ryan

I’m thinking of Amazoning the book and Netflixing the movie. My wife likes when I read baseball books aloud such as Ball Four and Moneyball, I think it’s time for another. Told her I’d read Twains Connecticut Yankee in King Arthur’s Court because I keep falling asleep to the audio version on her phone. I digress…

“In one of my lives I was a failed screenwriter. The only movie I wrote that went into production was never finished, this after they changed my script extensively.”

Nice line Walter. Sucks. But you must have learned a lot.

Anybody have thoughts on the new CBA. A lot to sift through.

Jerry Hairston probably in the Giants crosshairs. Will be competition from other teams like Brewers and Dodgers, so sounds like it will take a 2 year commitment.

@CC posted a link some time ago showing how fielding position does indeed affect hitting, so, don’t move Buster. We need his bat desperately (& his keen mind).

With regard to Buster playing SS–no, pls! He’s not known for speed or for nible feet. Was moved from this position in college bcuz of this.

————————–
re: Belt, Pill, etc.
Belt belongs at 1B–he’s the best D 1B on the team. Put Huff out in LF. If Huff can’t hack it, put Pill or (? new-to-be LF?) out there, or platoon Pill w/ Belt at 1B to do matchups.

Agree w/ @Anti–they’ll prob trade one of the kids to get a bat. I hope they don’t stock us full of old creaky vets who can’t run the bases. (I actually picture Pill being trade bait more than Belt.)

————————–
re: Willie.
I’m very concerned about his elbow. Hope it heals 100% during off season. Assuming he comes back 100%, my vote still goes to him as closer, cuz of his *mental* preparation.

(Luv’d the job Casilla did, but he’s not as acclimated to the pressures of closing.)

————————–
re: Hairston.
I don’t remember if it was Scott or Jerry Jr, but one ‘o those Hairston bros gave r pitchers a very difficult time (hit a couple ‘o bombs; never struck out). Hairston bros got some good bats.

Did NOT like the poor D by Brewer’s Jerr (or wz it Scott) in playoffs this year–my only big concern ’bout this.

————————–
re: Beltran.
Luv his bat, don’t like his wheels.
Yea, if Valentine becomes BoSox GM, maybe familiarity will trump proximity to his baseball school (any FL locale), or a contending team (SFG, others?). Dunno.

————————–

Happy Turkey Day to all!

http://www.gravatar.com ClutchUp

@ Foothills: Smokeless TobaccoPlayers will be prohibited from using smokeless tobacco during interviews or club appearances, and cannot carry tobacco tins in their uniforms.

—Hard to believe this will be inforcable…. Already kids 14-17 are walking around with tins in their back pockets with GUM in the cans. Got so bad the umpires associations NOW say = if you have a TIN, gum or otherwise, player out of the game.

—Selig must have had to promise to the players union that he would not procreate anymore off spring.

—We haven’t heard the last of MLB and Smokeless. Understood about Milb.

Just for fun: Jimmy R*O*L*L*I*N*S

Walter Guest

Speaking of smokeless tobacco:

In another life I was chief surveyor building some high risers in Orange County (Koll Center on Macarthur a block off the 405). In the upper levels the wind messed with my cigars so I switched to chaw. Only thing is, I never spit. (Take a moment and think about that.)

In that same timeframe, on off-days I drank four ounces of vodka before breakfast and ate Jalapeños like they were M & Ms.

People ask me to what I owe my longevity (I’ll be 81 tomorrow).

I have no answer.

JD4SF

Great tale!
Happy Birthday, Walter, and may you celebate many more!

My late father played some semi-pro baseball as a kid – keep in perspective this was @ 1916-17. The way he told the tale, back then ball players were *expected* to chew … so he tucked some in his lip and went out to play 3B. He fielded a ball, forgot the chew and swallowed. Not long after that he was green, followed by upchucking. Next game one of the players handed him more, and he gradually learned to tolerate it.

The rest of the story …
Dad decided to focus on football, made the team that went on to become the Cal Wonder team, dislocated his shoulder in practice before the season started, and that ended his “sports career.” (Not that he wanted one – his UCB degree would today be Civil Engineer.) And while he smoked, he never willingly dipped from a can after that initial experience at 3B.

Anti-Lasorda

Cody offered arbitration today?

Foothills Ryan

No way on Cody arbitration. Only chance is to rework a deal. What’re we talking, 4 million $

Bapah

Just thinking…
Although I hate to even think about losing him…Timmy to Seattle for Hultzen and Nick Franklin and ?. Nah, I’ll keep Timmeh.

http://giantspipeline.com Dinero

I hate to say it, but trading Belt does make some sense.

We have two guys, Belt and Posey, who at some point will need to be playing 1B more often than not. Something’s got to give, and it sure as heck shouldn’t be Posey. I’d hate to see Belt go, I believe he is going to develop into an excellent big leaguer, but it also doesn’t make sense to stick him in the outfield when he was born to play 1B.

Not even mentioning Pill…or Oropesa for that matter. Ricky may be knocking on the door himself here in a couple years.

I think there is no way they would trade Belt right now. Young, cheap hitter with plus-power potential?

It’s also too soon to say what will happen with Posey, the other young catchers in the pipeline, and what positions Posey and Belt might be playing in a couple of years. Who knows–maybe Posey will do just great behind the plate. Maybe Belt will develop into a stellar outfielder. Maybe Huff will have such a great bounce-back year that the Giants pick up his 2013 option. (OK–I believe the first two possibilities way more than the third.)

But a year or two down the line, if it becomes apparent that Posey needs to move, either for his health or because there are other young catchers that need to be in the mix as well, and if Belt is hitting 20-25 HRs a year–I suppose they could look at trading someone, including Belt. Maybe for a pitcher. We might need one by then.

http://channelclemente channelclemente

Since the Phillies and SS are an issue, sometimes it’s interesting to visit the thinking they have on the subject.

my suspicion is that Posey will be lucky to catch over 80-100 games this year. We need depth at catcher and Sanchez just isn’t ready for prime time, IMO.

Lefty

Channel,

I’d have to agree. I’d really like to see a veteran catcher signed to a one-year deal as insurance. Still mad that Sabean didn’t go out and get one after Posey was injured.

http://giantspipeline.com Dinero

I think Sabean is still mad he didn’t go out and get a C after Posey went down. Then again, the market wasn’t exactly bristling with Cs. Certainly not many that were better options than what we had.

shellfish

Gathering of the Tribe or Black and Orange Brigade

Sat home games in 2012. The last I saw, could be wrong, peeps were thinking a Saturday game was the best for those traveling. Since I am slowly losing my ever lovin mind with no BB, I thought I’d give us all something to ponder during our holiday weekend…

if I were you guys, I’d give some thought to the pitching matchups before focusing on a given date.

Lefty

Dinero,

So he said, but if we were going to give up Wheeler for a Rent-A-Car(los) and Neal for O-Cab, surely there was some deal he could have made. Not convinced he really tried that hard.

shellfish

Channel, yes, excellent idea! I was under the impression people wanted a saturday so I think that may be where we start…Plus, with the sometimes last minute pitching changes (although maybe not too many) that might be difficult to do. I live close so I am not restricted by the travel issues.

You are coming, right???? We all must meet the infamous Channel Island, Mr. San Clemente, no???

Well, I hope so anyway. It would be great to meet the characters on this blog.

I actually think a travel weekend to San Diego in August would be a blast!

http://channelclemente channelclemente

shellfish,

I’m, unfortunately, more or less, house bound or at least Sac area bound. I just know I wouldn’t spend money on a Brewer’s game, for example, unless Greinke came with it. Maybe a Rivercats game might be in my future, but I usually wait for them to play the Griz here for that.

http://channelclemente channelclemente

By the way, to those who are interested, I’m about to renew my campaign to have the Giants move the CF TV camera to dead away CF, where you can actually see the break and action on a LHP’s pitch. It would be nice for a team that has an arm like Baumgarners to showcase it where fans could see it and Krukow could talk about it. The camera in St Louis is in dead CF, and you cannot appreciate what Baumgarner can do with that ‘double dip’ break on his slider to a RHB any other way. That kid’s stuff has nohitter written all over it.

Anyway, email your contacts and let’s see what can be done.

shellfish

Well, I would travel to Sac to see a Griz game if some folks wanted to! I really don’t care, I just want to see some baseball and meet some of us and have a good time with fans who love it as much as I do.

Sometimes, I just go to games alone cuz I love it and just want to focus on what is going on. Some others don’t feel the same and want to chat or get up an cruz the stadium to see what’s going on. I hate to leave my seat even to pee!!!!

Housebound? Ug. I hope you are in good health.

I know Dinero would be up to see a Griz game prolly, he seems to get to lots of minor games (at least in San Jozer) which I would also be willing to check out sometime.

The more one partakes the less of the game one sees! Bathroom trips at the Stick were brutal. All you heard was the roar of the crowd.

ClutchUp

channelclemente says: November 23rd, 2011 at 3:40 pm

“As ONLY a classic FanGraphs afficiendado….”….could state (moving the cameras)

Go Channel,GoGo Channel…I hope it happens. Then maybe the Willie Mays Field at ATT Park wouldn’t seem like such a pipe dream.

ClutchUp

Pitching Matchups vs. Attending ANY game at the “Yad”. Never mattered one bit to me.

It’s “all about” building great relationships with great fans.

I WON’T Go if I have to sit anywhere near Lori Gruschka. I respect the game too much and she gave me a headache using rather inappropriate language coupled with a voice only a mother with bad hearing could love.

Happy Thanksgiving, everyone! Great posts at the end of this thread; not much baseball to talk about right now, so thanks for keeping the blog interesting.

Regarding a gathering of Baggs Blog Nation, I would be coming from Atlanta so lead time and expense become issues. My homies in the central valley would be pumped that I’m coming, so that’s another positive. The boys usually organize a spring training trip and they’re already hawking me about that.

I’m somewhat embarrassed to say that I have not yet attended a game at AT&T. Not much reason to get out to California anymore, but that’s no excuse. Just one more reason to make this happen!

totalfan62

I’m disappointed that Pablo was only named on two ballots for MVP from the 32 BBWAA writers. The six weeks he missed early in the season kept him from having enough plate appearances to qualify for the batting title, and reduced his HR/RBI numbers as well. That being said, he was clearly our MVP and should have received more recognition.

Many of the writers will include an unsung hero from their team, usually in the last 2-3 spots on the ten-person ballot (Baggs placed Affeldt in the #10 slot in ’09), but this year it seemed that sentiment became excessive as 26 players received votes. Shane Victorino got nine votes, which basically proves my point.

Foothills Ryan

I’ll bet Pablo gets a heck of a lot more MVP votes next year. By Fangraphs, he had 5.5 WAR in 117 games. Stretch that out to 150 games and he is a 7 WAR player. By comparison, 2011 MVP Ryan Braun had 7.8 WAR in 150 games played.

Imagine Sandoval getting hot and staying hot (coming into camp in great shape). He’s hitting splash hits, he’s showing some pop from the right, he’s squaring up everything. He hits 33 homeruns. He finishes the season with a .340/.380/.570 line and gets nods from the fielding bible…

… this is not that hard to imagine, is it ? Sounds like an MVP year to me.

Foothills Ryan

those weekend dates are all good. I’d see the Pirates. I’d see the Brewers for sure. I’d see the AL Champ Rangers for a 2010 rematch. Bring on the Rockies, Braves, Dodgers.

I’ll try to catch more Grizzly games in Fresno.

Foothills Ryan

Picking random dates for the Giants you really can’t lose with the pitching matchups. I’d see Lincecum. I’d see Cain. I’d see Bumgarner. I’d love to root for Vogelsong. And I’d would pay to see Barry Zito throw a complete game gem.

http://channelclemente channelclemente

Foothills,

Imagine Sandoval with two functioning eyes. You might get your wish.

http://channelclemente channelclemente

total,

if you haven’t been to AT&T, it is a rare treat. I’ve seen several parks, and I’ve never seen anything to compare. It can be truly breath taking, depending on one’s seats.

Walter Guest

From the bedroom of the house I grew up in you could see the rightfielder in Candlestick Park if he was playing deep. Yeah, I grew up on that hill. But I had moved out long before that monstrosity was built, although my parents still lived there. Charlie Harney ruined my neighborhood, paving over Gilman Park, Candlestick Point and Candlestick Rock itself.

Candlestick Point was once a rounded peninsula at the apex of which was a rock about twenty feet high in the shape of a candlestick, if you had a little imagination. The whole area was named after that rock Although it was more commonly known as Bare A$$ Point among the kids for some reason.

There’s some Giant history on a quiet day.

Foothills Ryan

Walter getting some MVP votes here.

http://giants-prospect-watcher.blogspot.com/ Dinero

AT&T is indeed a rare treat. What a gem of a yard. Definitely a must for baseball fans IMO, not even just Giants fans.

I’d love to catch a Grizzlies game some day, never been to a PCL game. I absolutely love watching SJ games though, minor league ball is just awesome, I love it. I’m almost looking more forward to going to the Muni this year than I am AT&T. Almost.

In other news…Belt is out of the lineup tonight for the second straight game. Wondering if something is up with him or if he’s just done with his stint in winter ball. I seem to recall he wasn’t going to be playing the full season. Did anybody hear anything?

Lefty

Belt: He’s back Stateside. The Mrs. Tweeted a couple days ago that she would be home that night. I replied and told her to make sure he has three helpings at Thanksgiving, and she wrote me back! She said he eats a ton!

Baggs Brigade: We’re in and can make those weekends work. Totalfan, you HAVE to come. You will love AT & T, I promise. Just walking up to it makes me happy thinking about the first time I ever saw it in April 2000. I felt like a kid seeing Disneyland for the first time!

Anyone wants to come for a Rivercats/Grizz game, I’m in, too. 20 min. from Davis and a great park and fun time. Happy to host a before or after game gathering at our new Irish pub here, too.

Lefty

Sorry–HE would be home that night (Belt).

http://giants-prospect-watcher.blogspot.com/ Dinero

thanks Lefty, missed that tweet

Lefty

No arb for Ross or Burrell.

Foothills Ryan

It’s weird that you guys follow players wives’ tweets. Not that you’re weird, just the process. Modern times.

Add Cesar Izturis to your backup/platoon shortstop plate next to Jerry Hairston Jr. and Ronny Cedeno. Remember when he was a Dodger? Seems like forever ago.

Lefty

I don’t, actually, except for Nicole Vogelsong because she’s pretty entertaining. Haylee Belt’s tweet about BB coming homr was retweeted by some Giants source I do follow.

I agree that would be a bit much–a bit too celebrity stalkerish for me. I do follow some minor league prospects, and they’re pretty fun. Unlike the big leaguers, they’ll even tweet back. I’ve had a few interactions with Heath Hembree. He’s actually a pretty funny guy.

http://giantspipeline.com Dinero

I follow a bunch of the minor leaguers, as many as I can find. They are a lot of fun, as Lefty said. They aren’t so polished as the big leaguers, they mess around a bit more. Some of my favorites are Brown, Daryl Maday and Verdugo (yes, I still follow him even though he’s not a Giant…just because he’s funny)

Lefty

I also followed Thomas Neal until he was traded, and I enjoyed him a lot. Very happy, upbeat guy.

Anti-Lasorda

Does Mr. Lefty appreciate you hitting on younger men?

Lefty

Anti,

Just scouring the market for my daughters.

totalfan62

@ Lefty: OK, you have convinced me that 2012 has to be the year I make my initial visit to our beautiful ballpark. I’ll start planning now for spring training visit and hopefully our BB gathering. Also need to start working Mrs. totalfan so she will be on board as well.

JD4SF

Dinero says:
November 23rd, 2011 at 12:15 pm
anyone for an enitrely home grown lineup in 2013?
==============
+++++++++++++++++

JD4SF

I won’t be very picky about which Giants game to come see – it just needs to fit on my calendar. That said … for your consideration …

Saturday July 28 6pm home against the Dodgers seems to fit the parameters well … regardless of pitching match-up we all could work up plenty of enthusiasm as fans.

Happy Thanksgiving to all!

JD4SF

I agree that 1B has potential to be crowded in a couple of years with potential for Buster to move out from behind the plate. Even in 2012 if Buster spends some time at 1B to stay on the roster but get out of the squat it will be crowded.

So in a few years time if Belt is doing a GG routine with big bat at 1B … Buster does have prior experience playing SS in college and apparently has a good glove. We know he has a cannon arm. Maybe he could be groomed for another position … or more?

What options might there be for Buster that would keep Belt AND Buster in the starting lineup?

How about when you also take into consideration Panda, the players coming up through the farm system, and other players aging / getting notably more expensive, etc? How might Buster compare, for example, at SS or 2B or LF?

I suspect he’d be more versatile and adaptable than Belt. For my next wild idea …
I’m also thinking going forward Buster has the potential to be a helluva utility player with the skill and temperament to be able to play a different position daily, rotating other players out for a break. This would be part of a “utility platooning” line-up strategy that keeps more players fresh while keeping Buster on the field (and at bat!) for the vast majority of the games. If Buster could rotate in as starter for C, 1B, 2B, 3B, SS, and maybe LF, then maybe sit a day … have I lost my mind? Thoughts?

http://cccccerewrsadsvcvcv.es Porsche Miyasaka

Aw, this was a really nice post. In concept I would like to put in writing like this additionally – taking time and actual effort to make an excellent article… but what can I say… I procrastinate alot and not at all seem to get something done.

Anti-Lasorda

WIth Posey’s wheels and the girth he’s picked up from being an 18 year old FSU freshman SS to know as a 24 year old MLBer he only has 5 positions he capable of playing, and really, at AT&T that maybe only 4….

C, 1B, 3B, LF just like Bench. He maybe at another park be able to play RF, but I think his lack of wheels might make that a no-go. His wheels will only get slower as he gets older.

I got news for you fellas… Buster’s a gamer, and he’ll be able to rake for a long time, but I think he’s a Victor Martinez long term….

Nothing wrong with that, but after his team control years he’ll be much better suited for the American League. I would expect by 2015, he’ll be the #3 catcher, and play more games at 3B than anyplace else.

YMMV….

Walter Guest

I would prefer a Joe Torre-like career for Posey. Torre stayed at catcher as long as he could handle it, then moved to third and finally to 1st. To move Posey to first in the next year or two might be good for his career because it would extend it, but that move would be disastrous for the Giants. He might be Hall of Fame caliber behind the plate but pretty average at first. Good hitting first basemen are everywhere.

An illustration of that kind of move is when the Cubs moved Ernie Banks to first while he was still a good fielding short stop. He went from being the premier shortstop in the National League to a below average first basemen, and the Cubs, as a result, suffered in the field.

That’s why good hitting catchers in the system should be kept at catching. They all should be groomed as trade bait.

On that subject, Hector Sanchez continues to have a spectacular time in Venezuela. That is a strong pitching league. He is starting to look like the real thing,

Foothills Ryan

In 1971, Joe Torre played in 161 games posting a line of .363/.421/.555 and belting 24 home runs en route to the NL MVP.

1971 appears to be the year that he shed the ‘tools of ignorance’ and was plugged into third base full time.

@ Lefty:I suspect he’d be more versatile and adaptable than Belt. For my next wild idea …I’m also thinking going forward Buster has the potential to be a helluva utility player with the skill and temperament to be able to play a different position daily, rotating other players out for a break. sit a day … have I lost my mind? Thoughts?

—-Mind is sound…but…The so-called culture of MLB baseball would not allow the rotational approach. Buster apparently played all 9 positions in one meaningless game at FSU, something a lot of coaches have allowed for a talented player.

I can’t minimize the fact that Belt wears his glove on his right hand making the sprinting to the left field line catch a more feasible play than the type catch a RH Left fielder is challenged with.

The Giants staff will suffer with a mini rotation until Aubrey is gone and then it will smooth out. The ONLY thing that would escalate a change is another front half season of 2012 with poor offensive performance.

Or, if Carlos returns the Belt – Huff and Pill have to be thinned out sooner rather than later.

I am thankfull for all you turkeys, talking baseball. even if it is only rarely it is still baseball talk.

I fear for some of you turkeys, cause tis the season.

Do not stuff yourself to much. Fat fingers and typing do not mix.

Thanks,

God Bless All!

http://www.gravatar.com ClutchUp

Walter Guest says:November 23rd, 2011 at 6:27 pm

Seals Stadium: Opening Day – My dad somehow thought it was okay to take me out of Catholic School.

I always liked the intimacy of that yard and knowing which PCL players starred there gave me chill bumps.

Then there was (I think) the Falstaff Beer sign.

At the Stick my uncle thought he always knew driving shortcuts. In via 3rd and Gilman and out the same way only PD would not let him make left turn so my uncle always hung a U turn in some donut shop parking lot.

Happy T Day to all the great posters here.
-CU

http://channelclemente channelclemente

Those of you who might be interested in a game in Sac, be it a visiting Griz game or Rivercat’s game, should consider grabbing a train up. The ballpark is close by the station and the ‘voyage’, is often quicker than driving. When I lived in the Bay area, I found Bart to Berkeley, onto the train, and out to Sac to work OK. Otherwise, the station in Emeryville is OK.

Urban’s current only media outlet is FM Radio 95.7 the game. He will pop up somewhere as in Chronicle KRON Live which is Independent.

By the way KNBR has had Kevin Lynch and Jim Kozimor on lately for Byrnes. Both so much better than Byrnes, although I have to say Kozimor’s 2nd in fill in was less thrilling for me.

He tried to evoke some of what I do not like about EB, jiving with words that surely don’t fit his TV persona, plus he let some guy from Modesto babble incoherently for an eternity…

mitchvman

Thanks Lefty & Clutch

Be interesting to get the “skinny” on Urban

I don’t care who does Sportsphone just not Byrnes. I don’t care about his knowledge and/or comments.

His drawn out inflection on his voice is simply like nails on a chalkboard. It takes away from everything else!

You have heard “You have a face for Radio”

Byrnes has a voice for writing books!

Anti-Lasorda

I’m thankful Brian Sabean got more than a bucket of balls for Dirty Sanchez…..

My Thanksgiving wish is he gets more than used sweat socks for Zito…….

If it comes down to it, I might settle on the socks…..

Happy Thanksgiving All, and to All a Good Night…..

ClutchUp

Thankful for the former PED era being over. The new testing will be dicey. Might have 20 players dinged the very first time. I think they should test MORE with the new enhancers but the penalty should be less. If they are really guilty than two 20′s will eventually add up to what they are now posting as a first time offense.

God help Eliezer Alphonso if scores positive…he’ll have the hat-trick.

Whether Verlanders MVP award was agreed by everyone or not (not me) it also shows a directional arrow back to pitching dominant, especially in the AL where 9 actual hitters bat.

It was not lost on us that a high % of position players punched for HGH testing demanding that there be a return to an even playing field.

SOME day far far away I hope with can give thanks for the AL banning the DH. Although La Russa had great success with the A’s and WS, he was very pointed when asked on what baseball needs to do going forward and without hesitation he said to get rid of the DH.

Maybe Sabean can use his old Yankee-player connections to grab a guy who has been know to pitch one year – take the next one off and come back another year.

Pitching at ATT would make him happy as a 5th starter. Be useful with Bum and Surkamp (eventually) – a mentor like the unit was to Tim and Matt.

—Andy Pettitte

ClutchUp

Forgetful here:

Happy Thanksgiving and get well to Mavo and The Wisdom Cow.

Aloha and blessings to al oha, as well as feel better Channel.

So thankful for JD4SF, Shellfish and Lefty and there is more from the female brigade that I am forgetting thus happy T day to ‘you’ also.

Off to huge family gathering and Harbaugh_Bowl.

JD4SF

Thanks for the responses re Buster beyond C position. 3B and 1B seemed the more obvious to me – I agree his speed isn’t overwhelming – and I was wondering if he might have enough talent to pick up other positions.

Consider that 3B is pretty locked in by the Panda. 1B may be locked in by Belt. That makes it a bit more challenging if Buster needs a break from C but you want to keep him in the lineup.

Good suggestion to consider Amtrak as an alternate to distance driving to a Giants game, assuming you have a decent train connection. I’ve ridden Amtrak round trip from the southern end of the central valley to the East Bay several times. My Kindle and laptop entertain me, and I arrive more rested because I haven’t been focused for 4 hours on driving, much less wrestling with the unfamiliar city traffic.

Happy Thanksgiving, all! Even with ups and downs, we can still find things to be thankful for in our lives.

http://dasdasdasdasdadsddrrrr.pl Lisette Peck

When I was younger, in about 2000-2001, there was a line of barbie-esque dolls called Get Real Girls. They were snowboarders, skateboarders, soccer players, etc. They had a “passport” filled with visas from their world travels, and they came with a slight personality profile. I loved those dolls. They were “women’s empowerment” type… they weren’t all boob-a-rific, and they had normal, athletic figures.
I don’t know if they still make them, but I think I still have mine…

Shellfish

Pumpkin pie and coffee for breakfast…. Woo hoo!

Channel, thx for tip on the train. Maybe you could suggest a game you would be able to attend ( weekend) and a bunch of us could train it up! My son would love the train ride and it could be a great way to get nor cal peeps together before the at t gathering.

Foothills, is this near you at all? I forget exactly where u are..
Dinero, would your boy enjoy the train? Lefty?

Well, it would be fun!

Foothills Ryan

Foothills can take the train from Fresno to Sacramento or Oakland.

Happy ‘Buy Nothing’ Day everyone! The only thing you should buy today are items related the Black & Orange. The owners need every dollar they can get so that payroll can stretch just a little bit more for the right early Christmas present

http://channelclemente channelclemente

Apparently the snakes, among others, are making a serious run at the White Sox Mark Buerle. Not good.

“Well, the Miami Marlins, Washington Nationals, New York Yankees, Boston Red Sox, Toronto Blue Jays, Minnesota Twins, Texas Rangers, Kansas City Royals, Arizona Diamondbacks, St. Louis Cardinals and even the Cubs have given them a reality check. The list of interested teams continues to grow, and several three-year offers have come in already.” from the Sun-Times.

http://channelclemente channelclemente

I’d suggest any game in Sac be in the Spring, through mid June, Rivercats stadium is nice, but very hot late in the summer. I have to organize my wife and sun for the trip to haul me down, but with planning it’s doable.

You can see the proximity of the Amtrak station and Raley Fiels on this map.

Just wanted to let you all know that Giants single game tickets can be purchased today. Go to sfgiants.com and you’ll see where to get to the tickets purchase area.

It was crazy earlier today, so you may want to plan on exercising some patience.

ClutchUp

Lisette Peck says: November 25th, 2011 at 8:45 am

Question to JStreet, TotalFan and anyone who cares. Any luck on informing Baggs or Bud Geracie concerning the former topic and others namely a the top of my post who come here to spam Andy’ site? WoW I just saw a Thread from Andy where by another language (Maybe Russian) is being spoken. In other words some on here are using hi site to actually communicate back and forth about contraband NOT associated with this actual site.

Other topic: I knew the gals would jump to the front with their organizational skills regarding Baggs Brigade China Basin Gathering (or he other site) I am impressed.

If I can pull a few strings… I am trying to “Check out” a 16-20 person Suite for sometime in 2012. Sometimes those Monreal Expos on a Tues night…..No wait….maybe the Pirates…early in the seaon…

Maybe Lefty, JD4SF or Shellfish can compile a geographical list of how far spread out we ALL are…. Some may not want to be specific for security reasons…. I know JD4SF is about “250″ miles away.

I’m in San Carlos, California
CU = Go Giants as in Go Giants No Matter Who is on the TEAM! Been a fan to long to sweat the small stuff.

http://channelclemente channelclemente

@CU,

I’m told a discrete request to move the CF camera is a very good conversation starter.

http://channelclemente channelclemente

To illustrate how desperate the baseball situation is, I have been watching snatches of the 25 best games played in MLB channel the last week or so. They’re about half way through it. A game they picked was the 1980 NLCS between the Astros and Phillies. Bouchy was catching the Astros and he took the full Pete Rose treatment in a bad hop throw at the plate. Had Rose dead but the ball was in the dirt and Rose cleaned his clock. I can see where his passion about the Posey situation comes from.

Journal of Quantitative Analysis in Sports. LOVE IT. I can totally use this for my Baseball Across the Curriculum class!

Walter Guest

(On a quiet day, with no one around….My son encourages me to tell him stories from my life. This one is ball connected.)

I have many baseball stories, few of them are about me, but here’s a story about a curious at-bat I had.

In one of my lives I was a 20-year-old Air Force Staff Sergeant on Guam. (A friend commented “My oh my, you got one stripe for every five years of yo’ life.” His point being it sometimes took that long in the service! This was four years after getting expelled from Balboa High school in SF for failing every class, a record that could be equaled but never beaten.) I was running a survey crew for a civilian contractor, Vinnell, that repaid the Air Force for my services.

The only game in town was fast pitch softball (not a totally sissy game) so I joined the Vinnell team. I could have played for my Squadron team but I didn’t want to be the token white guy there too. This was 1951 and Truman had decreed the end of segregation in the services. When I transferred in from Okinawa they put me in an all-black squadron. The squadron team was the reigning champs. They would’ve taken me on out of courtesy but they sure didn’t need me, so I played for Vinnell.

In an at-bat in one game I struck out swinging, but on the last swing a curious thing happened. I saw the ball perfectly and timed it perfectly just swung and missed. In that instant I knew I’d get a hit the next time up. It was like déjà vu in reverse. This was a certainty. I didn’t say anything to anyone for fear of breaking the spell. Next time I came up with the bases loaded and singled to left on the first pitch.

That was the only time something like that ever happened to me. Did it hold over? I lost that feeling and in my last at-bat popped to first on a 3-2 pitch.

JD4SF

ClutchUp says:
November 25th, 2011 at 5:08 pm
If I can pull a few strings… I am trying to “Check out” a 16-20 person Suite for sometime in 2012. Sometimes those Monreal Expos on a Tues night…..No wait….maybe the Pirates…early in the seaon…
=====

Wow – Weather wouldn’t really matter other than a rainout! But I’m betting a weekend / Saturday is the only real option for those of us who would travel any distance to SF.

I’m thinking “nicer weather is likely” would be something to consider for scheduling. I have gear to draw from that would include thermals, down parka, and waterproof pants and jacket, but others may not have that option, or may not be able to tolerate the cold even if bundled up. And it would be VERY disappointing to schedule then have a rained out game.

You might also want to get a general head count. For example, I’d be a party of 2.

I don’t think where people are coming FROM really matters. The pertinent question is if folks can ARRIVE for a game. LOL But I’ll mention I’m notably closer to Fresno than I am to SF, so if folks put together a Saturday Grizz game I might be able to make it.

primetimedonna

Clutch
I work at the ballpark, in a section down on the field, but would love to join everyone as long as I have notice so I don’t schedule that day. Otherwise maybe you can just come by and say hi.

Lefty

Agreeing with JD4SF: for a group traveling, probably a weekend from June on is safest (as to weather).

Someone asked me awhile back about the train to Sac for the Rivercats: The Capitol Corridor train line goes multiple times a day. I’ve taken it several times to go to SF from Davis. (You can switch to/from BART at the Richmond station.) It’s actually a lovely ride and quite comfortable, and I think anyone, including a child, would enjoy it. Several of my colleagues live in Berkeley or Oakland and take the train regularly to teach at UCD.

It’s not the cheapest option in the world, but these days neither are gas, bridge tolls, or parking. (Parking at Raley Field is substantially cheaper than near AT & T, though.)

http://channelclemente channelclemente

Speaking of trains, walking from Amtrak to Raley takes you by the Railroad Museum, it’s free for kids uner 12 I think, and speaking from experience, and a train lover, it is great.

Not the ones where they empty the park (TwiNight)…just Game One with game Two following in 30-45 minutes.

Thoughts?

Lefty

Old-style double-headers? Probably not. Guessing the players don’t like them (long day) and why would the owners like them?

Too bad. Went to many at Candlestick as a kid. My Uncle Steve, who grew up in Boston, took me to a DH with the Braves every year. When I got a bit older, I’d take the bus to the park with my friends for Sunday DHs. In hindsight, I’m surprised my parents allowed that. Times were different then.

ClutchUp

Lefty:

I agree, and it is too bad. It might help the post season end earlier than November.

I’m not sure I see the value in investing in Hairston as utility and SS when he doesn’t have much of a bat. Think I’d rather take my chances with DeRosa, who may not still have a long ball but certainly ended the 2011 season with reliable small ball hitting and is versatile as a utility player.

Bapah

Double Headers? Only for make-ups late in season. What’s the gate on one game at WMF @ China Basin?

http://channelclemente channelclemente

There are a minority of club owners who seem to want to work the WS back into early October. They’ve proposed a 154 game season and 10 doubleheaders per year, per club. As it stands now, they seem to feel that the college and NFL football is costing them a bundle in primarily TV revenue in October and early November, not to mention NBA’s small contribution in early fall.

totalfan62

I’m glad to see us discussing the possibility of bringing back old-fashioned doubleheaders. My first Giants game was a DH vs. the Cubs. We used to drive over from Stockton only on Doubleheader Sundays.

Every team should schedule six a year–appx one a month–and the season would end before the end of October. Yes, that’s six gates they would lose, but the goodwill and additional TV money could offset some of that. They could charge 1 1/2 times a one-game ticket and most everyone would be happy with that arrangement.

My most memorable day at Candlestick: June 22, 1986. The Humm Baby year, Giants come back from 100-loss season to compete all year for the NL West. My wife Debbie and I drove up from SoCal for the weekend. Giants won the Friday night and Saturday afternoon games, bringing them to within 1/2 game of first place. They won the first game of the DH 4-2–Krukow with a nifty complete game effort–then won the nightcap 3-2, last play a leaping catch at 1B by Mike Aldrete. Between games, the ‘Stick was rocking like I had never seen. Bring back Doubleheaders!

Lefty

Totalfan,

1986 was a great year, and I loved Aldrete. A few memories:

1) Watching the opener on TV in our apartment in Sacramento. Will Clark takes Nolan Ryan deep in his very first AB (foreshadowing of the 2010 World Series–who knew?!)
Hank Greenwald’s call: “How do you do, Mr. Ryan? I’m Will Clark.”

2) We spent that summer teaching English in China. Way before the Internet or smart phones. Every few days we’d walk to the campus library to find an English language newspaper to see how the Giants were doing.

3) Returned from China and moved to LA so I could start grad school at USC. Went to Dodger Stadium for the last game of the season and saw Krukow win his 20th!

Good times.

http://sonchongtham bang can nuoc sonchongtham

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Mavo

Thanks to Clutchup for the Thanksgiving shout out! I hope everyone had a good Thanksgiving! We have so much to be thankful for … our families and our health!

Happy Holidays to all of our fellow Extrabaggers!

foothills ryan

Polling for expected outcomes (not what you want to happen but what you think will happen):

What are the chances you think the Giants land Carlos Beltran? Jimmy Rollins? Jose Reyes ?

Presently, I think there is a 55% chance on Beltran. This could change depending on satellite images to around 40 by tomorrow.

@ Lefty: I sure hope we put together a gathering of Baggs Blog Nation so that we can meet and carry on the conversation.Teaching English in China–very impressive!

As mentioned earlier we were living in SoCal (Nor Org Cty) in ’86, and we were at that last game of the year as well. Candy Maldonado hit a grand slam to clinch Kruk’s 20th, I stood to cheer loudly and got pelted with hot dog foil and empty cups. Dodgers fans showing some passion!

That was also the year we saw 38 Giants games in six cities, highlighted by a road trip to Chicago, St. Louis and Pittsburgh. We got to know Mike Murphy, and had a couple of dinners with him and some of the players (Vida Blue, Robby Thompson, Chili Davis). Definitely a very memorable year!

http://giantspipeline.com Dinero

I’ll go with:

Beltran 30%
Rollins 10%
Reyes 0%

Lefty

Totalfan:

That is awesome. My husband and I are a year away from the empty nest, and we’ve been talking for years about taking a series of trips to see different ballparks once we’re freer to travel. We’re for sure going to see the Giants play in Seattle this June.

I met Vida just a couple of years ago at 2010 spring training and even got a picture with him! He’s quite a charmer and still looking pretty darn good, I must say.

http://www.mercurynews.com ClutchUp

channelclemente says: November 27th, 2011 at 11:08 am 357..@CU,
An epistle, or explanation of why you have such a difficult time coming over to the bright side, sabermetrics, true enlightenment. I’m smiling!

@CC: I think you’re giving science or logic too much credit. I recently said here on EBaggs that the ONLY way to really judge talent is to mesh both SABR and the Eye Test used by the majority of baseball evaluators over the age of 45.

Me: I spent too many summers sitting quietly while the Older Baseball People waxed poetically about this “kid” or that kid. Whenever those same ‘fellas’ caught wind of some NEW way to evaluate a newbie, boy the BS and expletives increased.

I personally can deal with position players who can: Catch (defense) Throw (defense) Run (can’t coach speed) and hit for average. The hitting for power is nice, but I can do without it because any slightly built player with the ability to see the ball along time – increases his bat speed. (See Mike Fontenot) Fontenot does not hit with power but he might hit for power IF he sees the ball well out of the pitcher’s hand and is also “looking for” a certain pitch.

I can also deal with power hitters who do not hit for average, as historically speaking baseball has always had those thumpers who could not do both.

—I can feel your smile as you got me to read the link.

http://www.mercurynews.com ClutchUp

Mavo says: November 27th, 2011 at 1:57 am 323..I hope everyone had a good Thanksgiving! We have so much to be thankful for … our families and our health! Happy Holidays to all of our fellow Extrabaggers!

Kudos to Mavo. We, me included have been giving ourselves and our eventual “meet-up” our various names and here it kind of was staring us in the face the whole time (altho I like all the variations) ExtraBaggers kind of also “says it all”.

http://www.mercurynews.com ClutchUp

@TotalFan:

I am not sure about the dates but some personal in attendance days stand out with me.

—Marichal vs Spahn 16 innings-Both went the distance
—Mike Ivies GSlam with Simmons doing radio
—Mays Ties Mel Ott @ 511
—Almost anything Stretch McCovey: Dealt away by incompetent management/front office people – he spent 1974, 1975 and 1976 with the Padres and 24 ABs at the end of 76 in the A’s green and gold.
Montanez and Murcer both whined about how they didn’t want to play in SF. The Giants signed Stretch as a free agent at the start of 1977 and he won Comeback Player of the Year at age 39 with 28 HRs and 86 RBIs. In 1979 in the home opener, Stretch hit a pinch single with two out in the ninth, followed by a pinch hit walk-off HR by John Tamargo. Mays is the best ball player that ever put on a uniform but #44 was home grown SF Giants. McCovey’s last game was in the middle of the 1980 season at Dodger Stadium, when he graciously gave a speech saying that he felt he had to get out to give Rich Murray a chance to play. He then drove in a go-ahead run with a pinch hit sac fly in the 8th in his last AB. Giants won 7-4 in 10 as the Dodgers and Steve Howe gagged.

—Looking around and seeing ONLY 5000 people or less during “those” years… of futility and even worse futile management.
—Joe Morgan’s 3-run HR off Terry Forster in the final game of the 1982 season eliminating the Fodgers after Rick Monday had eliminated us the day(s) before.
—One of Atlee’s rare Up moments 5th inning strike-out of Jack Clark in the ’87 play-offs.
—Matt Williams’ HR in the ’89 NLCS, spoiling one pitch after the other.
—All of the 103 win 1993 season minus the wild card. Watching the entire Braves series with Crime Dog hitting against Swift and Burkett
—Will the Thrill (“I am just thrilled to be here=history of nickname) vs Mitch Williams Game 5 of NLCS with Hank’s call on the radio.
—Brian Johnson’s HR in the B12th after Shooter Beck (throwing 84-85 max on pure guts) induces Eddie Murray to hit into a Jeff Kent – to Brian Johnson – to JT Snow double play.
—Almost anything Bonds related at the Stick…

—-The 1989 Quake and realizing how many MORE people in the Bay Area would have died, had they not been at the game or home watching…

Many More, but… it’s almost 2012…

http://www.mercurynews.com ClutchUp

Bapah says: November 26th, 2011 at 4:52 pm 378..Double Headers? Only for make-ups late in season. What’s the gate on one game at WMF @ China Basin?

+++++ I am digging the letters WMF +++++++++

http://www.mlbtraderumors.com/san_francisco_giants/ ClutchUp

Mavo and others: I just finished this book. Well written. Throughout the books chapters they went 1 chapter Joyce and 1 chapter Gallaraga.

Giants hats with extrabaggers embroideried on it, classy and to the point.

foothills ryan

Extrabaggers waaaay better than Teabaggers !!

foothills ryan

Some elementary statistics for stat lovers taken from today’s poll.

n=3 (three intrepid souls)

Extrabaggers say:

There is a 38.33% chance the Giants sign Beltran (SD= 14.43)

There is a 25.00% chance the Giants sign Rollins (SD=18.03)

There is a 1.67% chance the Giants sign Reyes (SD=2.89)

I won’t report the n=2 data. Better luck next time.

http://giants-prospect-watcher.blogspot.com/ Dinero

I’m really starting to like the idea of Graham as a fourth or fifth outfielder in ’12. He’s coming on strong right now in the MWL, he’s got a ton of speed, he plays excellent defense, he’s aggressive as all get out on the base paths. Of course he’d be dirt cheap (in relative terms of course). I’m having trouble seeing a downside right now, seems like he has everything anyone would want from a backup outfielder. Besides, you know the guy would be hungry if he finally got a shot at the bigs.

Now…if it was Doc Ellis ( on shrooms ) I would read/listen to the story.

ClutchUp

Dinero says:November 27th, 2011 at 9:37 pm

I am partial to Christian…but will settle for Graham. Note: he is going to have to learn to not run through/into walls.

Decker says he is a baller and did anything and everything the team needed during situational baseball.

JD4SF

Dinero says:
November 27th, 2011 at 9:37 pm
I’m really starting to like the idea of Graham as a fourth or fifth outfielder in ’12.
=======

Much depends on if he – or other – can handle being an extra instead of a starter.

foothills ryan

Here’s a hypothetical roster with Graham and some Beltran guy. I don’t like it. It’s too left handed. Fontenot and Gillaspie as the middle infield backups and both left handed hitters. Gillaspie doesn’t really play 2b. Yet. The outfield is also too left handed. Can Pill really play 2B. Plug him in there, I dunno.

As our Dinero as been noting elsewhere, Hector Sanchez is making a serious case in Venezuela that he is ready NOW, at least with the bat, hitting for average, power, and run production.

As the supply of veteran backup catchers dwindles (Jose Molina just signed with TB), it will be interesting to see if Sabean decides to run with Stewart or Hector as his best backup options (assuming Whiteside is out of the picture).

Christian vs. Graham: They kind of seem like the same guy to me, and I’m guessing with Graham being added to the 40-man, they both may get an opportunity in ST to win a 5th-outfielder position. (Who’s the 4th? Well, it depends whether we buy another FA outfielder–Beltran, Crisp, even Ross–and/or retain Torres.)

Foothills: We keep struggling with the “too left-handed” problem in our rosterbations, so that’s a good argument perhaps for having the backup middle infielder be right-handed, i.e., not Fontenot. I think the OF is OK. Beltran and Cabrera can hit RH, and maybe it’s OK to have two lefty OFs (Nate & BB) and have the fifth be RH. It’s definitely an argument for having Pill as the backup 1B, to (so maybe not Fontenot AND Gillaspie).

Anti-Lasorda

This is why the Rays have one of the smartest front offices in baseball…. from MLBTR….

The Rays officially announced the signing of catcher Jose Molina today to a one-year deal with a club option. The $1.8MM deal pays $1.5MM for Molina’s 2012 salary and includes a club option at the same price for ’13 with a $300K buyout.

He would have been perfect Posey insurance at an affordable price. Benji could have even been a ‘special assistant’ all for $1.5M….

Another missed opportunity….

That leave either Ramon or going with the Stew, Sanchez as the only opitions at backup.

I would place my money that Sabean is going to start with Stew, and bring Sanchez up around July to stay.

YMMV…

ClutchUp

November 28th, 2011 at 12:04 am 410..Dinero says:I’m really starting to like the idea of Graham as a fourth or fifth outfielder in ’12. JD4SF = Much depends on if he – or other – can handle being an extra instead of a starter.

> What am I missing?. Graham has not been up in the SHOW as of yet, thus I am sure he would be thrilled to be on any MLB club regardless of which capacity.

ClutchUp

Looks like in 2011 there was roughly 52 non-tenders.

Speculation for 2012 is about 50. Most of our musings are speculative guesstimates. I know its driving us crazy.

Good points about Christian vs. Graham, they are definitely very similar players, very similar skill sets. I could see leaning towards Christian for the backup OF role, especially since he’s already seen time with the big club. Graham is four years younger though, and seems to perhaps be a bit better of a base stealer — I keep looking at that 2011 total of 60 bags and thinking that could be awful useful.

But, either one could probably fill the role very nicely.

http://giantspipeline.com Dinero

If Christian does make the ’12 team though, someone is going to have to smack Kuip in the head every time he calls him Christiansen.

Eli Whiteside (700K) – no arm, no glove, no bat, no speed…. called a no-no and has a ring. Not bad for a Zero tool player.

Emmanuel Burriss (600K)- he’s fast, has a decent glove at several positions, but is very limited offensively. Despite plus speed, and the omniously large OF at AT&T, he couldn’t find many extra base hits. Perennial 4A type player.

Graham and Christian will spar to the death in the Spring for the 5th OF and potential CF platoon. If Torres is brought back on a reduced contract it will be an all out Steel cage deathmatch, with one of them perhaps earning the everyday job in CF depending on the F/A signings. Torres IMO is being thought of as on the roster one way or the other (see him wearing Giants gear in Tawain) , and he will need a RH hitting platoon partner not named Cody Ross who the club anticipates losing.

Right now, my assesment is Cabrera is the starting LF, with the club still in search of a CF. Cabrera can fill in in center if anyone of the three bantied about free agents are signed.

Beltran, Cuddyer, Willingham all seem much more suited to LF than anyplace else. If price are all the same (and it looks like they will be, I like Carlos’s bat better. I’m still cool on his clubhouse persona…..)

Coco signing or a Cody resign would make an interesting choice for who plays where for Bochy. Only Crisp having the fleet feet required and Ross having the arm and a much need RH bat for the lineup. A thin Cabrera would be a compromise on both.

http://www.mercury.com ClutchUp

Dinero says: November 28th, 2011 at 11:18 am 182..If Christian does make the ’12 team though, someone is going to have to smack Kuip in the head every time he calls him Christiansen.

Dinero: Christian vs. Christiansen.

Thank You. Flemming did it. Miller did it and almost all of ComcastSports Net. I watched the kid play 4 yrs of HS varsity ball then 2 yrs at Skyline Community College, Auburn U, and then South East Missouri State (SEMO). His name was NEVER miss-pronounced as much as it was during his call up time.

Justin is as hungry of a player that I have encountered. Of course he has been on the proverbial bottom rung a few times so the fire in his belly is 24/7/365.

Anti-Lasorda

Clutch spent all last week charming the ladies….. Keep it up good buddy!

As far as the Baggers trip to the AT&T, Raley or the Chuck I would be interested in joining depending on the trip and day.

The Chuck is a nice park, but go three or four block the wrong way and uh-oh…. straight tarp tents on the freeway off ramps….

Raley is nice and I have been there on several occassions. But should Giants fan’s be going to a A’s game? *lol* It should be a Rivercats v Grizzzz throwdown. There are plenty of match up during the season.

Any excuse for AT&T is fine by me, but attendance will be best on the weekend for me. As a working stiff with a toddler at home a weekend pass is much easier to pull….

http://www.mercury.com ClutchUp

CC: My apologies. I was thinking of Steve Ellis the internet pitching guru who has made as much money as did the infamous Dick Mills and the legendary Tom (do it my way) House.

Rob Ellis is a well respected hitting instructor as is Rudy Jaramillo who Theo is attempting to retain with the Cubs.

One reason if not more that Meulens is not going anywhere soon is because he is a regular at 7am at the parks looking at film of the good and bad of both his young hitters as well as the vets. It is clear to ME that the SF brass from top to bottom has to find a way to instill the fact that 81 games at least are to be played at ATT/WMF. Balls leaving the infield with too much air under them are F7 – F8 or F9. Channeling the spirit of Dorrel Norman Elvert Whitey Herzog’s clubs would help immensely.

Meulens also never throws his guys under the bus apparently the way Carney did in 2008-2009.

All MLB hitting instructors “know ball” – however its the connection between instructor and pupil that is the contemporay measuring stick. (McGwire and Aldrete)

http://www.mercury.com ClutchUp

Anti-Lasorda says: November 28th, 2011 at 12:09 pm 416..Clutch spent all last week charming the ladies….. Keep it up good buddy!

I was worried about you…Commander A-L. Thought you were in Singapore visiting Walter working on your Acronyms for moments of pleasure.

I wonder if any of the E_Baggers is named Vance?

http://www.mercury.com ClutchUp

Past tense. Would local boy John Baker – injuries and all (elbow) have been a decent back up for Buster.

.271 Career/LH bat. Just traded to the Padres.

Foothills Ryan

With apologies to the over-lefty-heavy roster posted earlier…
…no dice on Beltran. Infield help required. Conor, go play some second base in Fresno. Welcome back Cody Ross. Hello Ronnie Cedeno. Graham nudges out Christian by a hare (photo finish) – got to love the pinch runner/defensive replacement option.

You can decide whether you can get Ross or Crisp for about $5M and which way is better to go. Both have pros and cons….

Fontenot’s $1.3M maybe cannibalized to get Torres on the roster depending on how the front office feels about it’s ability to sign either Crisp or Ross. This would bring Gillespie up to fill Fontenot’s role. I am currently projecting a Graham/Torres CF platoon with Christian challenging pushing Graham in the Spring. This woud make Fontenot’s $1.3M an easy swallow.

Current scuttlebutt is Harriston over Cedeno is the front office preference. I would go with the younger Cedeno. His wife will nicely replace Heidi DeRosa in the wives pin-up contest and I think he’s better suited for playing 100+ games at SS. Crawford will get an extended look, but his AFL splits suggest he is in need of at least a platoon partner to play 60+ games at SS and I think you have to prepare to fill more than the first 50 or so games with someone in case he fails to make the adjustments at the plate. If that guy is Harriston it scares me and makes me think of O-Cab, Tejada type defense.

I somehow think Rollins will sign at something like 4 for $38-$40M. I did not predict this coming in September and I don’t think it’s the best move; but, if the deal is structured right it may work. The commitment will seem much better than the 7 for $90 being thrown at Reyes.

http://www.mercurynews.com ClutchUp

Lefty says: November 27th, 2011 at 5:34 pm 395..

++++++++++

Great stories including the then little one saying Yay and Boo where appropriate. Classic SF vs. LA sentiments.

I thought the Governator could have at least converted California into two states during his tenure. I am still trying to determine where the middle line would be drawn…

http://www.mercurynews.com ClutchUp

Foothills Ryan says: November 28th, 2011 at 12:31 pm 426..

Whoa…yee of little faith and a former J_Christian advocate. What makes you think that “JC” is not a late game def. replacement or a base running threat. ???

I will be waiting

http://www.mercurynews.com ClutchUp

BTW….Foothills…are OTHERS viewing your avatar or is the Twighlight Zone theme song still playing in the background?

That North-South line when I was a kid used to be Bakersfield. Gorwing up down under, once you got over the hill you felt like you were in a different country.

Now a days, based on the cultural composition it may have to move all the way up to Salinas……

Though the Central Coast from Pismo to Monterrey does present an interesting challenege.

Okay, I’ll draw the line at just south Coalinga at the Fresno County line….

Anti-Lasorda

No go on the Foothills avatar

Anti-Lasorda

Clutch…

On coaxing Baggs out of his winter cave, I usually find a Schulman’s posting more than you sort of blast effective. With Hank on sabbatical until the arbitration deadline, I suspect Extrabaggers will be running this thread up for the next two weeks before we see a Baggs post.

Anti-Lasorda

What do we care about the hill in CF and the plag pole in play.

3 games every 6 years after next season. It won’t matter what Ten-run Field…errr… Minute Maid Park looks like…

Keep’n It Real

ClutchUp – I just wanted to share with you that I sent an email and received a response. Let’s just say that “they” are aware of the situation and we’ll leave things at that.

Bapah

I still see (dead) avatars. Can’t make out what it is though.

http://www.moviesnextweek.com Linda Finkel

This is very interesting, You are a very professional blogger. I have joined your feed and sit up for in quest of extra of your excellent post. Also, I’ve shared your site in my social networks!

Bapah

A-L Where does it hit the coast? I’d like to keep Santa Barbara, but not Oxnard.

http://www.mercurynews.com ClutchUp

Keep’n It Real says: November 28th, 2011 at 1:28 pm ClutchUp – I just wanted to share with you that I sent an email and received a response. Let’s just say that “they” are aware of the situation and we’ll leave things at that.

Hoping every May 6th is a party for #24 at Willie Mays Field at ATT Park.

http://mercurynews.com ClutchUp

Anti-Lasorda says: November 28th, 2011 at 2:32 pm

Yep…I hated that format personally. One of the big reasons to divvy into two is just that….LA…SoCal and SF…NorCal are Wider Apart than any two planets in the Universe.

Anti-Lasorda

Clutch,

Let’s just say if they split the state, it won’t be done with any common sense and the proposal in the article is more likely to happen with all the sure-fire gerrymandering than drawing the easy SLO-Kern-SB county line accross the state. That would be too easy.

primetimedonna

If California is being divided because SoCal and NorCal are like different planets, what does one do with San Francisco? ;>)

http://mercurynews.com ClutchUp

Primetimedonna:

We will cordon off certain parts of SF in “Eureka Valley” possibly with Occupy Castro Protestors.

Will have to remember to enforce the “Use a Towell Rule” reminding those that putting a towel between your backside and a seat is “basic etiquette”…

I think Mark Littell has taken one too many baseballs in his head. Funny how his Montana-Speak probably would not “cut it”… most places.

HaHa…what does he call the young Lady in his video…”A Sweet Lookin’ Little Thing”…

Mark Littell might be brain dead…

Keep’n It Real

Not meaning to go back to the movies discussion, but does that young relief pitcher in “The Natural” (gives up the final Hobbs homer) remind you of Matt Cain??

Lefty

Oh, and Buster just posted pix of himself playing Augusta National with his dad and two other guys. He said it was “one of the best experiences of his life” (and included a picture of him swinging in a sand trap!)

Great to see him looking so well and sounding so happy.

http://www.mercurynews.com ClutchUp

Lefty says: November 28th, 2011 at 3:35 pm 424..

My brain was not working that fast, but thanks for the mention. Something will shake out sometime in 2012. I predict success on most fronts, especially for some of us that live relatively close. Personally I have to fix the fact that I am way too spoiled heading out to WMF aka ATT Park at China Basin.

San Carlos Bullet Train to the end of the line is like 30 minutes if I can live through the under 29 crowd with open containers who ACTUALLY do not even have tickets. The female % of that group has only a few rules. Wear as little clothing as possible and consume as much alcohol as is humanly possible. The restrooms on CalTrain are “occupied” by 99% females within that group.

Which also brings up THIS: Ladies…please stay out of the MENS room at ATT, or at least be POLITE. I was asked (more like a demand) during game 162 by an “in need” female if she could have my spot in line and when I declined I got booed by the other guys in the “room”.

http://www.mercurynews.com ClutchUp

Lefty says: November 28th, 2011 at 3:47 pm 421..

Okay….I guess I will HAVE TO make an exception for Gerald Dempsey Posey III but mark my word…no…just kidding…but golf swings and baseball swings DO NOT mesh together and equal success, but again for Dempsey III I will make an exception since its November.

99% of the time, baseball players who golf (in season) are pitchers only.

http://www.mercurynews.com ClutchUp

Anti said:
Would you do Pill, Pegeuro, Graham and Runzler for McCutcheon?

Answer: Yes Please.

Lefty

Clutch,

Wow, that was you who wouldn’t let me cut in line? How rude!

(Kidding. Who DOES that? I’d be scared to death to crash a men’s room, no matter how “in need” I might be!)

Lefty

Speaking of Buster, in that video clip of Freddy’s walkoff on Willie’s 80th, one of the first people you see running out with a huge smile is GDP III himself.

Everything seemed possible on May 6, 2011.

http://www.mercurynews.com ClutchUp

Going Out On a Ledge Here, but Oh well it’s only November.

Not a pure baseball item thus OFF topic. In fact I am not going to defend or try and defend what I am about to author because sports fans will either “get it” or they won’t. I am NOT even taking on criticism although I KNOW it’s on its way. I am going by the eye test, adversity overcome, intangibles unexplained, golly-aw-shucks demeanor and the so called throw-back-type athlete, so hear it goes.

These Three Amigos Have Amazingly Similar Traits, and #3 had to grow on me. I wasn’t convinced, am not a big praise the almighty (during sports) and so on and so on, but all three are authentic.

1. Buster Posey
2. Andrew Luck
3. Tim Tebow

http://www.mercurynews.com ClutchUp

@ Lefty says: November 28th, 2011 at 3:56 pm 419..

—I know any % over 100% is hard to compute but let me assure you it is 1000000000% out of control.

It is now taken on a cult-like atmosphere and I think it needs a dedicated, thoughtful, intelligent, hall-monitor-type like yourself to control those offenders. (kidding of course, but maybe not)

Anti-Lasorda

I am just wondering if there is a foot tap system in those bathrooms?

http://mercurynews.com ClutchUp

Sen. Larry Craig hasn’t been seen in SF since Sean Penn invited him to the premiere of “MILK”…

Lefty

Clutch,

I love your list and think I do get it.

I know I’m biased, but I’ll add USC QB Matt Barkley to that list. He is a person of faith like Tebow is–was seen on camera having a word of prayer with two teammates before the Notre Dame game–but (like Buster) not talking about it ALL the time. (No knock on Tebow there. Barkley and Buster just have a different style.)

The really impressive thing about Barkley–besides the fact that he’s become a damn good QB whose stats this year rival Luck’s (Barkley on Sat. night broke the Pac-12 single-season record for TDs)–is that he STAYED after the NCAA sanctions came down and his coach (Pete Carroll) abandoned the ship. He could have transferred and would have had plenty of places to go, but he loves ‘SC and believed that staying for the dark years was part of his purpose there. (Google Barkley’s “I am Second” YouTube video if you’re interested in this story.)

Last year, knowing he wouldn’t be preparing for a bowl game over the holidays, he and his parents decided that rather than moping around, they would go serve needy children at an orphanage in Africa for a couple of weeks. He took along his girlfriend (high school sweetheart, soccer player) and his punter, Kyle Negrete (who I’d bet will be a preacher someday).

Like Buster and like Luck, Barkley is a very strong student and was just named to this year’s Pac-12 All-Academic team.

The Trojan Nation is hoping (and yes, praying) that he’ll come back for his senior year, but whether he does or doesn’t, he’s a very impressive young man who’s going to do well wherever he goes, personally and professionally. Doesn’t that sound like Buster, too?

JD4SF

On the “too many left handed hitters” issue, particularly in the infield, I’m back to looking at Mark DeRosa.

http://mercurynews.com ClutchUp

Lefty:

Barkley has really grown on me. Sorry to say that because I am such a detractor of Lane Kiffin that I cannot wrap my head around the cause, although nothing against the institution and while I am at it at least USC has exposed Rick Neuheisel and UCLA for what his knowledge base really is or isn’t. (Is this Neuheisel’s tour of Head Coach Duty? If so what were they thinking?)

I will like him more (Barkley) if he remarkably returns for his Senior Season but I doubt he will. Luck ONLY came back for his Junior year correct and I think one of the Washington kids returned for his 12th yr and it bit him…

http://mercurynews.com ClutchUp

Woops. Luck IS a Senior. Kudos.

http://mercurynews.com ClutchUp

JD4SF says: November 28th, 2011 at 5:12 pm 469..On the “too many left handed hitters” issue, particularly in the infield, I’m back to looking at Mark DeRosa.

JD: That works for me, but the What-Ifs are so LOUD. DeRo NEVER got to show the SF fans what he looked like during his former MLB yrs when he was a feared gap to gap drive the ball type of guy who you better not hang a curve ball to…

That said, contrary to those of us that like him, there are SO many fans who are already standing on the ledge if he and his wrist are the same as 2010-2011.

Wife Heide needs to massage the dickens out of the scar tissue that has built up in this wrist area…so can once again DRIVE the ball. I am hoping for a positve DeRosa resolution.

Anti-Lasorda

DeRosa situation is resolved.

He is out of contract. I would invite him to Spring training on a minor league deal if he wanted to give it a go, but I think he’ll want Heidi massage more than just his wrists after all those years on the road.

Stand up guy, could have been a good Giant if only……

JD4SF

I was also there for Willie Mays’ 80th birthday. The pregame recognition had me in tears. Yes it was cold! Yes, we loudly chanted “Fred-die!!!” until the staduim was roaring!

May 6th for the Willie Mays 81st birthday game would work for me as an ExraBaggers game because I have the flexibility to travel home on Monday. That Sunday is an afternoon game, but if I come by train a return train connection wouldn’t work for me Sunday night. But others may greatly prefer a Saturday game due to their personal schedules.

I’m thinking it may be a good idea to select a game date sooner instead of later. Folks who buy season tickets would then have the opportunity to work around that date, assuming we’d try to sit together during the game.

Or, we can get greedy and try to schedule more than one game.

JD4SF

On splitting California …
L.A. area and SF area are BOTH like different planets as far as I’m concerned. LOL

Lefty

Clutch,

Yeah, I didn’t care for Kiffin either and wasn’t excited when ‘SC hired him. Gotta say, though, he has done a remarkable job with that team this year (10-2, beat Oregon, went to 3 OT before losing to Stanford). I also read he’s been stockpiling recruits and redshirts against the scholarship reductions that start next year. He also has a rep as a stellar recruiter. So while he doesn’t have the charm or charisma of Harbaugh or Carroll, clearly he’s doing something very right there.

As for Barkley, with him and those two amazing young wide-outs, Robert Woods and Marqise Lee, USC could be in the national championship mix next year. If Barkley does go pro, I believe he’ll be a high draft pick and a good NFL QB.

Did you hear Neuheisel was fired by UCLA today?

Sorry, everyone. Back to baseball in my next post, promise!

JD4SF

CU & A-L on DeRosa …
Wish I could remember where I found the stats on DeRosa for Aug/Sept 2011. He was WAY over .300 … .350+ as a small ball hitter after he returned from his injury and adjusted his hitting strategy. He racked up a bunch of hits and RBIs. Seem to recall his last Giants game included a 2-run single.

Whatever DeRosa was before as a hitter, he’d certainly be a valuable asset for 2012 if he continued to hit in the .300+ category. And being a pro’s pro I’m betting he is using the off-season to strengthen that wrist along with other conditioning.

Last I heard DeRosa is now a free agent. I haven’t heard of other teams pursuing him, so he may be more affordable than projected. If he wants to play, I hope the Giants give him a look. If he can repeat his Aug/Sept even with .280+ his versatility as a utility player, right handed bat and situational awareness would be valuable. A bonus would be keeping his Mentor contributions around for the younger players.

http://channelclemente channelclemente

Anybody want to:

1. Weigh in on metal bats and MLB rookie hitting deficiencies.

2. Go dig up the data on minor league hitting ability over time and the advent of the metal bat.

I have read a few pieces lately castigating the users of metal bats for destroying baseball hitting. Some even lay the decline in MLB BA to metal bats. Me, I lean toward the cut fastball.

Lefty, thanks for the 411 on Barkley. I’m a Tennessee Volunteers fan (college football only), so Lane Kiffin is definitely NOT one of my favorite people. He is a great recruiter and a decent coach and he will have USC back to their exalted status very soon.

As a man of faith it warms my heart and soul to see young athletes stand up for the Lord. Tebow may be a bit out there, but it’s real. Buster and Luck are fine young men as well. The Showtime feature with Buster and his pregnant wife was a great look at a fine young man who was raised right by good parents, and will pay it forward as he builds his family. I hope he’s a Giant for Life, but that’s a tough thing to expect given the realities of today’s game.

ClutchUp

channelclemente says:November 28th, 2011 at 7:47 pm

CC: I got into an email argument (who me) with the owner of a bat-rolling business. He told me to mind my own business, and I almost called him immoral. LOL.

Google those bat-rolling suckers. They do huge biz with those mens adult softball teams where all the guys resemble “Git er Done” comedian (don’t know his name)

I am happy to see my Extrabaggers name seems to be catching on with the group!

I bought the video on iTunes of the 1965 7th game of the World Series and watched it tonight. It was a masterpiece by Koufax who shut out the Twins and their powerful lineup on TWO days rest … after throwing 336 innings during the regular season!! Twins pitcher was Jim Kaat and it was a great game… brought back so many fond memories for me. Koufax was and still is the BEST I’ve ever seen pitch! Those five years between 1962 and 1966 were probably the most dominant pitching in history!

I did not watch the World Series as a 13 year old in 1965 as I found it too painful after the hated Dodgers edged out my Giants in another close hard fought pennant race that year. So I boycotted the whole World Series that year! I DID watch it in 1966 when the Orioles got some revenge for my Giants by outpitching and sweeping the Bums that year!!

Mavo

Just a few things I noticed in watching the 1965 Game 7 of the World Series …

Maury Wills batting without a batting helmet
Both catchers, Battey and Roseboro without any helmets behind the plate … just the regular cap turned around backwards!

They liked to live dangerously back then … especially with headhunters roaming the diamond like Drysdale and Gibson!!

And watching both pitchers throw off the 15 inch mound. Looks like a mountain now!!

A couple more names I’m sure Sabean will check in on for backing up SS:

Jack Wilson -> Freddy Sanchez’ ol’ buddy !

Ryan Theriot -> Mike Fontenot’s ol’ buddy !

I see the Nationals are ‘interested’ in Mark DeRosa. They do realize he’s a singles hitter now, right. No speed, steady glove, one heck of a mentor. Isn’t the best gig for DeRosa as a bench coach.

Bapah

Hey Mavo,
I was at the game when Koufax struck out 18 (or was it 19) and have always thought Sandy was the best I’ve ever seen (TV, film or live) by a long way. Good call!

Anti-Lasorda

@ Channel

“Some even lay the decline in MLB BA to metal bats. Me, I lean toward the cut fastball.”

Not to quote Ralph Barberi, but both things can be equally true.

You get hitters used to fisting inside pitches above their hands by inside-outing them to right field with aluminum bats combined with cut fastballs boring inside and you have a recipe for lots of broken bats and weak ground outs.

I think they both contribute…

Keep’n It Real

Story about the Giants (possibly) being active at Winter Meetings. I hope so, because this quietness is driving me crazy(er).

Anyone purchase single tickets this past Friday? If yes, how was your purchasing experience? The Giants said they sold over 30K tickets; which was way above their “we’d be ecstatic” estimate of 25K tickets.

http://giantspipeline.com Dinero

A cut fastball in on the hands doesn’t feel good, no matter what bat you are using. I highly doubt anybody is trying to hit anything off of their fists.

I’d also suggest that the end of the PED era may be contributing.

Anti-Lasorda

Dinero,

I don’t think that’s what the player is trying to do, every player wants to barrel up the ball, but many are trying to replicate the Brett Boone approach to that inside pitch by keeping your hands back, rotating your hips through first and then inside-outing that fastball to the opposite field.

If your timing is off, and your bat drags too long you end up with that ball right off your hands. The nice hard aluminium bat won’t punish you in the batting average (although it stings your hands like the dickens) the way a wood bat would. It also discourages Little League pitchers to throw inside when they make good pitches and keep giving up the gorks to the RF who is often the worst player on the team.

You combine the transition from wood to metal with professional pitchers boring more balls inside on hitters with the cutter, making it so the ball gets in faster than the hitter thinks, upsetting his timing and he fails to get the barrel through the zone and Viola! Instant dribbler…. if not a sawed off special. Some young hitter never really have to learn how to hit the inside pitch.

Even with the move towards the harder maple bats, I would like to see the numbers of sawed specials and compare those to the era before the younger levels used aluminium.

I bet it would be an interesting study. Too bad no one kept the statistics….

Keep’n It Real

Bochy and Sabean get their extensions (source: KNBR)

http://giantspipeline.com Dinero

A-L – yeah, you may have a point. I certainly agree that metal bats are more forgiving in terms of the “sweet spot”. There’s definitely a bit more room for error when barrelling a ball up.

TitoMac

Yep,

Bochy and Sabean extended thru 2013 with an option for 2014

Bapah

Besides, metal bats (or composite) just don’t sound right.

Does anybody remember the weird variations in the handle sizes in the G.O.D.s. I hated those really fat handles, but wooden bats, ash and hickory, better than those weird maple ones, just have the right sound. Someone should do a study on the success of hitting inside pitches vs. wood species. My guess–maple loses.

Question: Can you see Aaron Cook or Brad Penny signing a 1 year deal with the Giants as their 5th starter, since Righetti had great success with Vogelsong? Penny did well with the Giants a couple years ago.

Answer (David Schoenfield – ESPN): Yes, I’d guess the Giants would bring in a low-cost veteran like that. Penny had $3 million deal with Detroit and would probably be looking at a similar deal based off his 2011 performance.

TitoMac

A-L & Dinero

Your discussion on metal bats. It is truely more andvantageous for a player with a metal bat to crowd the plate then with a wood bat. That is for darn sure.

expecially at the levels where metal bats are allowed.

Anti-Lasorda

All I know is as a kid, we aluminium bats were first coming up, we were taught to “get out in front” of the inside pitch. Mays used to famously step in the bucket to help him clear his hips and throw the barrel out in front to pull the ball.

Nowadays, many kids with aluminum are trying to let that pitch get deeper. They are keeping the bat back and trying to take the inside pitch to right. The metal bats help them do that. If they are late, they can still get hits……

Letting the ball get deeper is a good habit to get into if you can still get the barrell through the zone. We hear big leaguers stress it all the time. It just not the way I was taught to hit the inside pitch….

Anti-Lasorda

KIR,

I would sign Penny as a $3M insurance policy in a heartbeat. Would also consider Harang on a similar, if not more expesnive deal.

I think until the F/O decides on the Beltran/Rollins expenditures will determine if they feel they have the funds to go that route.

I think at this point, you’re looking at one of Carlos / Rollins / Willingham / Cuddyer and a budget bin RH hitting SS

Rather than leave a specific URL or link to aluminum bats vs. wood, here is a plethora of stories. The Ron Polk thread is enlightening and amusing (Think Joe Kapp). Polk has pretty much done it all in College Baseball as has Rod Dedeaux, Gordie Gillespie and Augie Garrido. (Can’t same for ASU former coach Pat Murphy who disgraced ASU baseball by violating recruiting tactics).

Guys like Posey were playing and succeeding in Cape Cod Wood leagues when he was very young. Current MLB hitters often times will talk in revered tones about their respective minor league hitting instructors or College Summer League Hitting Instructors (guys like Jeff Pentland, Jerry Stitt and Kevin Long)

The inside-out swing reference can be both a clinical term and/or a misnomer. After the fact video, coupled with a gazillion broadcasters just spewing out “he inside-outed-that ball”…means we all have decided to also try to define it.

To me personally its all about timing and where the pitch is located. No right handed-hitter ever “pulled” an inside pitch by inside-outing the pitch. Home runs to LF/CF on inside pitches by a RH hitter were “pulled” or hit straight away by either getting the bat-head to the ball “early” or by squaring-up the ball and hitting it to CF.

Good hitters who do not let their hands “get-away” from them (keeping them closer to their chest) are more likely to be able to stay inside the ball and THUS fight off good pitches…to the opposite field. One of the WORST baseball expressions on the planet is “so and so got extended”. In truth most balls are ‘powered’ at contact with a ‘bent-armed’ approach similar to punching in boxing. Its hard to inflict harm on a gym heavy bag by standing far away and contacting that bag at extension.

http://channelclemente channelclemente

What I took from the ‘Ellis’ article I posted, was that among the biggest issue with metal bats in young hitter, is the lack of development of bat speed with the lighter, metal bat. It’s not a matter of the wooden bats being heavier, it’s the nerve/relex develpment young players would get from the heavier wooden bat while learning the art of hitting, what folks allude to as ‘muscle memory’.

I would speculate as well, that id true, the more forgiving ‘sweet spot’ on metal bats makes a lot of kids lazy, in that picking up spin and trajectory become less of an issue with a metal bat.

In any case, I quit watching little league and college ball because of that horrible sound the ball makes when struck by a metal bat. Nails on a chalk board to me.

That’s what makes those former MLB good players great, thus having “starred” careers. Mays was good…Mays had great games…Mays had great sustainable years…Mays had MANY years where he played great, thus the definition of what and who was great and thus Who Were the (real) Super Stars of Baseball.

People now throw the word great around for any-ol-player. Sorry. Nada.

You could not teach Mays’ hitting mechanics to kids of today. Mays knew WHY he stepped in the bucket. Could not teach Koufax’s mechanic’s to young kids of today (nor Marichal nor Lincecum)

Each sporting community or each era should just chill out as to who was better than whom. Enjoy the moment (game/thank you Jeff) more. Like the boxing community who claimed Ali/Clay was the greatest. Ok by me, but Joe Louis made a bigger impact on the world historically.

http://channelclemente channelclemente

@CU,

you should wax eloquent on ‘time in the zone’ on a given batters swing. I know that was a very big issue that Ted Williams used to harp on. He felt that hand position and not swinging up on the ball were critical to ‘contact hitting’.

http://channelclemente channelclemente

@CU,

interesting thoughts about mechanics. I saw some old film on Bob Feller, pre WW2, and his motion was the closest I’ve ever seen to Lincecums. Similar leg kick, and reach back to extend and hide the ball, and his grip.

Anti-Lasorda

Am I the only one that thinks that we may need to put Belt in Fresno to start the year to keep a RH bat on the bench?

The more I looke at it, we are so left handed, I dunno if it makes sense to keep Belt playing Travis Ishikawa and clogging the bench with another LH bat for late innings.

All things being equal, Pill would be better in the Ishikawa role behind Huff and he’s RH giving Huff off days for Kershaw and other tought lefties.

That means Belt is viewed more as the 4th OF, and he doesn’t platoon well with anyone. Melky switch hits, Schierholtz is LH, Torres is only good for the left side and most likely platoons with the Graham/Christian winner….. who does Belt split time with?

Despite his fair results in the DWL, I could easily see him starting in Fresno with a good spring from Pill just to have a RH bat on the bench.

Of course, maybe Brandon poisoned Brett which is why he never was a Tomatero……

MLB scouts, area scouts and crosscheckers would agree with you. There are many more jobs now because of one thing the SABR world can’t control.

MLBaseball will NOT talk about or touch a HS/College kid unless those scouts have sat in the stands and physically watched so and so swing with wood at 60 game short season, A, High A, AA, AAA and so on.

The sweet spot on minus 5′s was about 4 1/2 inches with a trampoling effect that proved fatal on balls hit back to the mound. Minus 3 metals were still violent. BESR’s were better. BBCOR’s are getting more like wood. Not as much PING, but still a disgusting dead/hollow sound.

I absolutely don’t think Belt should start the year in Fresno, or play there ever again for that matter. I think we should stop thinking of him as an Ishikawa type and start thinking of him as the future 1B of the franchise. I think he has the potential to hit .300+ with 25+ bombs, and I think he should be playing every day in ’12 — for the big club.

http://channelclemente channelclemente

Anti,

that Belt question is a tough one. I think his body needs another year in Fresno, but I don’t know if his head can indure it. If he could deal with stepping in for Huff in August at 1B, after several 100 AB’s in Fresno (assuming the best), it might be the best for all concerned. Oddly enough, it may depend on whether Crawford hits or not.

Hard to dispute ANYTHING Teddy Ballgame #9 THE splendid splinter reflected on. Listening to Ted talk hitting with Gwynn near and Costas moderating should be mandatory viewing for all…several times over.

Mike Epstein got rich telling ALL that he was Ted’s disciple (not). It would also be difficult to teach what Williams did to any up and comer….although Brandon Belt should submerge himself in the Art and Science of Hitting.

Again, so and so’s bat staying in the hitting zone a ‘long time’ may be either real or a manifestation of what we think we are looking at. Like saying that Will Clark or Ken Griffey Jr had a ‘pretty swing’. It is almost difficult to articulate what we mean when we say that. Probably more than anything we actually mean “compared to so and so” those two had a ‘pretty swing’…

You are on to something though, since ones hands hold the instrument (bat) ‘me’ thinks the hand placement controls the ‘angle of swing path’ and what our eyes seem to tell us is so and so’s bat stays in the hitting zone ‘longer than others’ (or so it seems)

Anti-Lasorda

If that’s the case, the future is now and play him at 1B and put Huff in LF…..

Brandon IMO will start at 1st base in 2012, and Huff will be drinking beers with Pat in the Marina. We all know this.

Brett would be good to have as the Ishikawa role this yeasr and he will have a similar role for Brandon next. Give him the occassional day-off, RH bat off the bench, play against tought lefties. You just won’t be doing it for late inning defense as well as we were with Huff….

Knowing that Brett would be valuable as the back up role, and that if he stays with the org. we all see that as his long term role, might not it make more sense to get him in that role now in 2011 and let Brandon play everyday in AAA rather than squeeze at bats from the OF and 1B every few days?

I agree, that it might make the most sense to just turn 1B over to Belt like we tried to this season, and put Huffy in the OF. I just don’t see that happening. Having Huff in LF and Cabrera in CF leaves massive defensive holes. Of course, then Torres could be your late inning defensive replacement, moving Cabrera to left.

I guess that could work.

If we go with Huff/Cabrera/Schierholtz we best get a SS that can leadoff……

Rollins anyone?

I just don’t see that happeneing early on in the season.

Anti-Lasorda

Ignore the last sentence in my last post…..

I was thinking I didn’t see Bochy turning over 1B to Belt early on in the season.

I think he did exactly what he needed to do in the DR — he stayed consistent. He was productive, night-in and night-out, despite rotating between LF, RF and 1B. Sure, the numbers weren’t flashy (like the numbers Hector is putting up, for example) but they were steady. Sure, it would have been great if Belt had demolished DWL pitching. But, after the up-and-down (in more ways than one) ’11 season, I think it was important for Belt to show that he can be consistent, that he can produce on a daily basis. Especially also when taking into account that he was facing a ton of off-speed stuff down there.

I hope and expect to see Belt hit the ground running in the Spring, strong, refreshed and full of confidence. I hope and expect to see him take an everyday starting job — be it OF or 1B for now — and never look back.

I’m taking issue with ball players with huge contracts that are terribly underachieving and are a super drag on the capability of the teams to bring in fresh talent. What about this scenario: take Barry Zito, for example, how about if he went to the Giants organization and said, “I’m giving you back all this money you owe me, so you can improve the team with it’”? What a revelation! That would be the best way he could help the team, not with his arm but with his pocketbook.

Now I’m pretty naive about the financial workings of these matters behind closed doors and what implications there might be beyond what is evident to he fans. There are, I suspect, other considerations that don’t meet the eye of outside observers. If there are, it would be really informative to all of us out here what kind of shift might be possible in the way these things are handled.

Now, I like and respect Barry Zito. I have no doubt he is doing the best he can with the talent he has, and I’m sure he’s as frustrated as any of us about this recent performances. In addition, I’m sure he has many money commitments he’s made to community service organizations and foundations that dramatically reduce his actual take. So there is probably a fine line we’re treading here. But it’s just a thougnt.

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