In theory, I agree that it should be about the sports. But it's never only about sports. In fact it's never about only one thing.

The message of a boycott is quite interesting though. Because of a specific angle the media takes and a specific conflict they centre upon and feed to us, we now hate you so much that we can’t even jump in your terrible country anymore. Yet competing against and losing to people from other countries, no matter what they do there, is no problem for us.

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Wra1th1s wrote:

When I meant EVERY black metal band of course I don't mean EVERY black metal band.

Everything is political. Every purchase is political. Why should these games be any different. Oh, thats right, they are not.

More than 60 countries boycotted the Summer Olympics in 1980 to protest what Russia was doing in Afganistan (maybe not Afganistan, but it certainly was one of the -stan's). An event as large as the games has the potential to reach many, many millions of people...the Games is a perfect political forum IMO.

The Chinese authorities promised the IOC and international community concrete improvements in human rights in order to win the 2008 Olympics for Beijing. But they changed their tone after getting what they wanted.

These games are not the only ones to be boycotted. Olympic Games as they are now are a disgrace to ancient Olympic Games. They should be generally boycotted. They are just a tool of capitalism and globalization.

[/end rant]

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Panopticon at Flag Burner, Torch Bearer wrote:

Tonight all flags must burn in place of steeples. Autonomy must return to the hands of the people!

More than 60 countries boycotted the Summer Olympics in 1980 to protest what Russia was doing in Afganistan (maybe not Afganistan, but it certainly was one of the -stan's).

The Chinese authorities promised the IOC and international community concrete improvements in human rights in order to win the 2008 Olympics for Beijing. But they changed their tone after getting what they wanted.

Boycott the 2008 Olympics in Beijing.

Well said. And it was Afghanistan. There's also a thread I started a couple weeks ago about the situation in Lhasa, in which you can read all about what a huge fan I am of Chiner.

Personally, I don't see how boycotting the Olympics will do anything positive for the human rights situation in China. I guess if everyone threatened to boycott now, China may be put under enough pressure to start dialogue with the Dalai Lama and take major steps towards improving the human rights situation in Tibet. However, in the end, if there is a major boycott and the Olympic games turn out poorly and Beijing finds that it has wasted a lot of money, the only thing I can see happening is the Chinese government getting extremely pissed off and nothing will be holding them back from harshly punishing those responsible for the riots in Tibet.
Not to mention that if many countries boycott the games, you're really punishing the 1 billion Chinese people, who are eagerly looking forward to something they can be so proud of (I know this as I've witnessed first-hand the excitement in China), more than the Chinese government.
And then there will be the crushed hopes and dreams of thousands of athletes who might have just discovered that all their hard physical and mental training has just gone to waste for a cause that may be good-intentioned, but won't make much of a difference in the end.

In the end, my opinion is keep sport and entertainment for the people out of international politics. I think the Olympics are being too caught up in politics nowadays, and is too often used as a tool against certain countries, instead of what it should be: a sports competition. Use other methods of pressuring Beijing into improving the Tibet situation, instead of using something millions of innocent people have their hopes hinged on.

But if I could have things my way, I'd get rid of the Olympics altogether. I enjoy the opening ceremony and some of the sports, but I have to agree with Mors: in modern times it's becoming too entangled with politics and globalization.

I also agree with Corimngul on that the Western media does take a specific angle on the situation and do hold a lot of bias. Spending most of my life in Western countries, I couldn't even imagine Western media could be so biased and manipulative until I compared most reports on the Tibet situation with detailed, unbiased studies on Tibet by experts, and one news report which I found was the only balanced one I'd seen so far. I'll fetch some links if you're interested.

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Metaluis90 wrote:

yeah, I like Fairyland, but I find their name brutally gay.

Last edited by Balth on Wed Mar 26, 2008 11:01 pm, edited 1 time in total.

And punish the innocent athletes? I don't think it would actually accomplish much beyond that.

It's true; it would certainly produce mass casualties on the collateral damage front, but measured against the "unfairness factor" visited upon average Tibetans just trying to live their lives and practice their culture and religion in the face of an evil, totalitarian, self-serving, cynical regime that has no interest beyond perpetuating itself by any means necessary, I think the aspirations of a few shot-putters, juiced-up NBA pro basketball players, and women running around twirling ribbons on the end of sticks ("rhythmic gymnastics" or something?), I'm always going to come down on the side of the people with a boot on their necks.

These games are not the only ones to be boycotted. Olympic Games as they are now are a disgrace to ancient Olympic Games. They should be generally boycotted. They are just a tool of capitalism and globalization.

[/end rant]

Noo, not necessarily the Olympics. The enhancement of capitalism and globalization sucks, indeed. Man, those ol' times when proper "states" didn't exist and Greece was composed of autonomous lands...

Balth wrote:

I also agree with Corimngul on that the Western media does take a specific angle on the situation and do hold a lot of bias. Spending most of my life in Western countries, I couldn't even imagine Western media could be so biased and manipulative until I compared most reports on the Tibet situation with detailed, unbiased studies on Tibet by experts, and one news report which I found was the only balanced one I'd seen so far. I'll fetch some links if you're interested.

Fetch those links, please.

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invoked wrote:

Remember kids, retardation exists across all races, nationalities, and universities!

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/w ... 599559.eceThere's the single unbiased report I've seen so far.
Let me explain why it's different to most other news reports:
- It shows a picture of a Han Chinese at the mercy of a Tibetan, unlike other reports who only show pictures that imply evidence of police brutality and Tibetan innocence and righteousness. Why don’t other reports ever (or very rarely) display photos of Han civilians wounded at the hands of the Tibetan masses? Why don’t they show the video of the devastated, sobbing Han shopkeeper breaking down as he tells how his 18-year-old sister was burnt to death when Tibetan rioters set their shop on fire? Because they want to avoid creating any sympathy for the Chinese side.
- It looks at some of the events from the perspective of the Chinese side, a refreshing change from constantly reading about what the rioters experienced and ignoring the Chinese.
- It explores some positives of Chinese occupation in Tibet, not just trying to condemn it as much as possible like other reports who deliberately ignore any good-doing in Tibet by the Chinese and focus only on the negatives and oppression.
- It orders in experts to reinforce the fact that the situation is not totally one-sided and that there are complexities in it that need to be taken into consideration to justify the actions of both sides.
- It describes the reactions of Chinese in other parts of China, not just the pro-Tibet opinions of Westerners, some of who are often hopelessly ignorant of the complexities of the matter.
- Using legitimate facts, it somewhat justifies the actions of the PRC in Tibet as well as justifying the anger at the PRC because of the actions, instead of just throwing biased condemnations at the PRC like other reports do.

And obviously it's not a blind, pro-PRC report either. Now that's my idea of a balanced, trustworthy report. Unfortunately some people are so used to seeing pro-Tibet reports that they've actually accused this one of being pro-PRC propaganda, which I hope you are intelligent enough to realize that it isn't.
Some of the comments by the public under the report are pretty insightful as well. I was pretty relieved to see that not everyone completely agreed that China was the only one at fault.
If you want to compare this report to the ones with anti-China bias that I've been talking about, they're not too hard to find, just look for 95% of news reports.
And of course, there's the pro-China biased reports. They're not hard to find either, just look for anything released by Xinhua regarding the Tibet issue.

As for those studies on the China-Tibet issue:
http://www.flonnet.com/fl1718/17180040.htmhttp://www.michaelparenti.org/Tibet.htmlhttp://newleftreview.org/A2380They're quite long and will take a bit of time to read through, but if you're really intent understanding the issue without relying solely on the often biased media reports, I'd advise you to read them.
The first one is from India's national magazine, the second is written by Michael Parenti, an American historian, and the third by a Chinese writer. I guess you could accuse the third one to be biased considering the author is Chinese, but after reading through it I don't think it holds much bias at all.

Anyway, there are the links and the evidence that there is such thing as Western propaganda. I don't want to spark another big debate about China (let's get back to the issue of the Olympics, as this post was a bit off-topic in the first place), and no, I am not a completely brainwashed pro-PRC Communist, nor do I fully back the Chinese side of the Tibet issue, but I'd rather look at things from multiple perspectives.

These games are not the only ones to be boycotted. Olympic Games as they are now are a disgrace to ancient Olympic Games. They should be generally boycotted. They are just a tool of capitalism and globalization.

You are right but I think they called Modern Olympics for the particular reason that there isn't any real connection with the ancient ones. And ofcourse they are deeply political in every aspect. All countries in conflict or dispute have something to prove by winning medals and giving huge publicity to whether their athletes beat the opossing country's ones so they are stronger as a nation and various such simplistic stunts. Ancient Greek Ideals have no place in the modern world.

No. Boycotting the games will not accomplish anything and will punish a lot of innocent people.

Yesterday I saw a tv program with the head of the olympic thing in Belgium and he said nobody is even considering boycotting the games. The only thing that might happen is that a handful of politicians will not show up at the opening ceremony, as a symbolic statement. Other than that everybody agrees that boycotting the entire event is a stupid thing to do. (except for the occasional 'rebel' such as Mors_Gloria ...)

He also said that there's a couple of athletes that think China should be stopped, but again nobody is actually considering to not go. People have sacrificed a great part of their life to be there and nobody wants to let this go.

Not only would a boycot be foolish, but nobody is actually considering it. The media are jumping right on it, but in reality none involved really care about Tibet.

I agree with all of your post except this part. I'm sure many athletes care about Tibet, but they're just sensible enough to realize that boycotting the games won't do much good for Tibet (if anything it'll make things worse), while ruining their own plans.

It's true; it would certainly produce mass casualties on the collateral damage front, but measured against the "unfairness factor" visited upon average Tibetans just trying to live their lives and practice their culture and religion in the face of an evil, totalitarian, self-serving, cynical regime that has no interest beyond perpetuating itself by any means necessary, I think the aspirations of a few shot-putters, juiced-up NBA pro basketball players, and women running around twirling ribbons on the end of sticks ("rhythmic gymnastics" or something?), I'm always going to come down on the side of the people with a boot on their necks.

swineeyedlamb wrote:

It's not like they're being kidnapped or killed. Yes, being in the Olympics is a once-in-a-lifetime opportunity for many of them, but they're also a little bit complicit for taking part in the whole thing. Ideally, individual athletes should elect as to whether or not the country hosting the games is worthy of doing so; their fucking governments tell them what to do often enough, so why can't they show some initiative?

These posts imply that the boycott would actually help the Tibetans, or that the athletes really want something else than participate in the opportunity of a lifetime. The truth is, there is no evidence that boycotting the Olympics will accomplish anything BEYOND punishing the athletes. Which is, um, what my post said.

You are right but I think they called Modern Olympics for the particular reason that there isn't any real connection with the ancient ones. And ofcourse they are deeply political in every aspect. All countries in conflict or dispute have something to prove by winning medals and giving huge publicity to whether their athletes beat the opossing country's ones so they are stronger as a nation and various such simplistic stunts. Ancient Greek Ideals have no place in the modern world.

Basically, I do not care about Ancient Greek ideals. They are long gone and they ain't going to return. I just want all this christian-capitalist wank fest to leave us alone. For fuck's sake, for the sake of these games they painted Kronios Lofos. Just in order to appear nice on the TV screen of the Westerns.

cinedracusio wrote:

Noo, not necessarily the Olympics. The enhancement of capitalism and globalization sucks, indeed. Man, those ol' times when proper "states" didn't exist and Greece was composed of autonomous lands...

I am not concerned about "good ol' times". I just do not care for the Olympics too. They are only about selling-out.

DGYDP wrote:

(except for the occasional 'rebel' such as Mors_Gloria ...)

I am not a rebel.

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Panopticon at Flag Burner, Torch Bearer wrote:

Tonight all flags must burn in place of steeples. Autonomy must return to the hands of the people!

Not only would a boycot be foolish, but nobody is actually considering it. The media are jumping right on it, but in reality none involved really care about Tibet.

Pretty much, Maybe I am alone here but honestly I could not give a shit what the chinks do to some hippies over there. Americans have better things to do like rewatch the last season of 24 on dvd for the third time.

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Thorgrim_Honkronte wrote:

I'd be more than welcome to take on the jihadists. If they think they are the only ones who know how to make home made bombs and use guns... well they know nothing about redneck America.

Not only would a boycot be foolish, but nobody is actually considering it. The media are jumping right on it, but in reality none involved really care about Tibet.

Pretty much, Maybe I am alone here but honestly I could not give a shit what the chinks do to some hippies over there. Americans have better things to do like rewatch the last season of 24 on dvd for the third time.

The french PM said in an interview that a good idea would be to boycott the olympic opening ceremony, that way the athletes can perform and everyone can show their disgust at china.

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red_blood_inside wrote:

I forsee a new metal style called Death-Grind-Power-Ranger-Potter of the rings, and its kvltnes and tr00ness will be beyond this world

Not only would a boycot be foolish, but nobody is actually considering it. The media are jumping right on it, but in reality none involved really care about Tibet.

Pretty much, Maybe I am alone here but honestly I could not give a shit what the chinks do to some hippies over there. Americans have better things to do like rewatch the last season of 24 on dvd for the third time.

The french PM said in an interview that a good idea would be to boycott the olympic opening ceremony, that way the athletes can perform and everyone can show their disgust at china.

Yeah, but most politicans probably don't want to do that as it will most likely get China pissed off at them and temporarily suspend ties (or worse, considering it would be a huge embarassment to China if an important politician boycotts the ceremony) with their country like they did with Germany when Chancellor Merkel met the Dalai Lama. China's over-sensitive when politicians show their support for Tibet in any form.

Oversensitive because they've been an oppressive state bent on destroying generations of culture and engaging in medical tests on religious minorities? Clearly we should not upset them.

That's the problem: China is too economically and politically powerful to be upset. I think it's fair to say that it is the second most powerful country in the world today. Plus the fact that the government is a Communist one (well, technically Socialist), so it's much more stubborn than most governments. We can only hope that they loosen up to international advice in the near future.

As for engaging in medical tests on religious minorities, I haven't heard of human rights abuses to this extent in China. Could you provide me with some links?

It was alleged that practitioners detained in forced labour camps, hospital basements, or prisons, were being blood and urine tested, their information stored on computer databases, and then matched with organ recipients. When an organ was required, it alleged, they were injected with potassium to stop the heart, their organs removed and later sold, and their bodies incinerated.

That is so wicked thank you for posting this.

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Thorgrim_Honkronte wrote:

I'd be more than welcome to take on the jihadists. If they think they are the only ones who know how to make home made bombs and use guns... well they know nothing about redneck America.

That's the problem: China is too economically and politically powerful to be upset.

FUCK that! People like me exist so that people like them don't. I will not tolerate ANY western nation being intimidated by China, nevertheless the goddamn United States. If we wanted to, or if Germany wanted to, or if France wanted to, et cetera, we could bomb the portion of their population that doesnt live in a state just above the stone age, back to it. If we wanted to, we could destroy their country on foot. I would backpack across China with a five five six, I think it'd be a hell of a time.

That's the problem: China is too economically and politically powerful to be upset.

FUCK that! People like me exist so that people like them don't. I will not tolerate ANY western nation being intimidated by China, nevertheless the goddamn United States. If we wanted to, or if Germany wanted to, or if France wanted to, et cetera, we could bomb the portion of their population that doesnt live in a state just above the stone age, back to it. If we wanted to, we could destroy their country on foot. I would backpack across China with a five five six, I think it'd be a hell of a time.

They could at least nuke the fuck out of all the western allies in Asia (including India), meaning economic collapse for whitey. This is on top of environmental catastrophe, and the potential for new diseases bred in the billions of unburied corpses, and the carrion-eaters.

I am pretty confident that the best minds of the most advanced civilization in history can find a way to destroy motherfucking China with little to no collateral damage. I am not going to try to argue foreign relations and global politics, I am just a damn grunt, it's not my place...just putting in my 2 cents.

That's the problem: China is too economically and politically powerful to be upset.

FUCK that! People like me exist so that people like them don't. I will not tolerate ANY western nation being intimidated by China, nevertheless the goddamn United States. If we wanted to, or if Germany wanted to, or if France wanted to, et cetera, we could bomb the portion of their population that doesnt live in a state just above the stone age, back to it. If we wanted to, we could destroy their country on foot. I would backpack across China with a five five six, I think it'd be a hell of a time.

They could at least nuke the fuck out of all the western allies in Asia (including India), meaning economic collapse for whitey. This is on top of environmental catastrophe, and the potential for new diseases bred in the billions of unburied corpses, and the carrion-eaters.

I am pretty confident that the best minds of the most advanced civilization in history can find a way to destroy motherfucking China with little to no collateral damage. I am not going to try to argue foreign relations and global politics, I am just a damn grunt, it's not my place...just putting in my 2 cents.

That is very immature thinking. Look at Iraq. It was smaller and much less powerful than China when it was invaded. Now take a look at how your great minds of the most advanced civilization are faring in Iraq. And Afghanistan. If your civilization is so advanced and perfect, why are hundreds of people still dying in Iraq each week? Why is it still a bloody war zone after all these years? As you can see, war is not as simple as "we have nukes, we're American and super-advanced, let's nuke the shit out of them lololol". Also, don't forget that China has another very powerful and close ally known as Russia, who are basically the third most powerful country in the world.
Things like these can only be solved through dialogue and reasoning. If there's a major war involving China and the US, everybody loses. The global economy will collapse, the environment will be fucked over like you've never seen (as in, the environment will not exist anymore after all the bombing), millions of people will die, and the human civilization basically self-destructs.
Why do you want to murder innocent Chinese civilians with nukes anyway? If you're going to think like that you're really no better than the most inhumane of CPC officials.

As for the persecution of Falun Gong, it is a shameful and gross violation of human rights (though the organ harvesting bit has not been confirmed, it was released by the Epoch Times after all, and there are still doubts among Western intellectuals so I wouldn't take that report as fact just yet), however I wouldn't consider is as testing on religious minorities. The Falun Gong are not a religious minority.

though the organ harvesting bit has not been confirmed, it was released by the Epoch Times after all, and there are still doubts among Western intellectuals so I wouldn't take that report as fact just yet

I've seen reporting on that in much more prominent, levelheaded, and well-respected sources than Epoch Times... I think the organ thing is very, very real, sorry to say.

Anyone familiar with the fictional works of Larry Niven will know that this was predicted forty years ago.

That is very immature thinking. Look at Iraq. It was smaller and much less powerful than China when it was invaded. Now take a look at how your great minds of the most advanced civilization are faring in Iraq. And Afghanistan.

Uh...he's talking about the US nuking China to oblivion, not pacifying it. From a purely pragmatic viewpoint, killing off the populations of Iraq and Afghanistan wouldn't be very difficult when compared to pacifying them.

In that case, he's a bigger monster than the government he's criticizing.

It is an entirely political thing, but the Olympics is all about politics now anyway, so much chest-thumping because it would be politically incorrect to go to war and prove your might (mind you, I don't support war except in retaliation to an enemy invasion). Somewhere, the whole world knows this may well put all previous Olympics to shame in terms of grandeur and what not and this is a good way to slight years of effort of China. You know what, I really don't care if they do, because sometimes Chinese pride suffocates me.

Chinese tennis player Na Li had said she would be glad if the Australian Open was shifted to Beijing because it would be just four hours away from her home. Oh really, what about players from the Southern Hemisphere (geographically speaking) and what about the many Australian Open tournaments she must have watched as a wide-eyed kid, does she really care so little about the game, about an arena named after Rod Laver? If indeed she's representative of general Chinese thinking, then I don't have much sympathy for them that their dream might be shattered because China is not THE World.

But I don't want to see politicians in the US and Europe make hay out of a non-issue (because like DGDYP said, nobody cared for Tibet until now when the Olympics are almost upon us) and politicize what is ostensibly a sporting event. So I want the Olympics to go on.