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It's a nice park/school site, but it hardly replaces or does what a back yard/front yard does. You're certainly not going let your kids play in this park unsupervised while you are in your kitchen cooking supper, and also I echo what chumpking said.. you can't enjoy a beer or have a fire.

It's a nice park/school site, but it hardly replaces or does what a back yard/front yard does. You're certainly not going let your kids play in this park unsupervised while you are in your kitchen cooking supper, and also I echo what chumpking said.. you can't enjoy a beer or have a fire.

but it's a nice park.

That`s correct, which is why you see young parents socializing on the benches while their wee ones play in front of them.

"You're missing the point" says the man incapable of seeing other people's viewpoints as he attempted to move the goalposts to make his flimsy, barely coherent argument even somewhat plausible.

A public park & amenity spaces are no substitute for a proper backyard for the vast majority of people & their use cases. Why have a private space when you can spread the activities any normal family engages in their backyard across a handful of parks & amenity spaces scattered across the Downtown core? Sounds positively idyllic.

Giving less of a damn than ever… Can't laugh at the ignorant if you ignore them!

Hey, Grandin School playground is only one busy arterial road & a handful of side streets away! I know that this same distance/isolation is seen as a giant ordeal when it comes to grocery shopping but evidently it's completely appropriate for playground-age children to navigate in order to play.

Giving less of a damn than ever… Can't laugh at the ignorant if you ignore them!

"Why can't you guys just support my assertions & dubious arguments without thinking about them or criticizing them? Geez! I was only trying to put forward my personal agenda free from repercussions or feedback on the agenda within! C'mon! Be a sport! A-holes!!!"

Giving less of a damn than ever… Can't laugh at the ignorant if you ignore them!

Posting a photo of my front/backyard where the neighbourhoods kids, families, dogs play and how wonderful it is to have this for our community/neighbourhood and having the usual/classic/tired group jump on it and criticize it... yup, bravo.

It's not your front/backyard. It's a public park which supports a very limited subset of activities available in a suburban backyard. Other public parks offer other subsets but even aggregated there's still a dramatic amount of stuff that's simply not feasible in public parks or amenity spaces, which you completely disregard or otherwise attempt to sweep under the rug in order to try and make your point.

Furthermore, suburban neighbourhoods have community gathering areas, community halls, parks AND backyards. Downtown doesn't have a monopoly on parks or access to the river valley.

Giving less of a damn than ever… Can't laugh at the ignorant if you ignore them!

None of this was urban versus sub, but simply showing how liveable Downtown and urban neighbourhoods are.

Bravo for doing what you always do by taking it as something else.

You should really try to develop some self awareness on how your posts are going to be perceived and reacted to. As soon as I saw your post I was like "oh great, here we go again". I don't think you were intentionally trolling for responses from your fan club, but you may as well have been.

It's not your front/backyard. It's a public park which supports a very limited subset of activities available in a suburban backyard. Other public parks offer other subsets but even aggregated there's still a dramatic amount of stuff that's simply not feasible in public parks or amenity spaces, which you completely disregard or otherwise attempt to sweep under the rug in order to try and make your point.

Furthermore, suburban neighbourhoods have community gathering areas, community halls, parks AND backyards. Downtown doesn't have a monopoly on parks or access to the river valley.

Actually, these spaces are very much viewed as 'our front or backyards'.

None of this was urban versus sub, but simply showing how liveable Downtown and urban neighbourhoods are.

Bravo for doing what you always do by taking it as something else.

You should really try to develop some self awareness on how your posts are going to be perceived and reacted to. As soon as I saw your post I was like "oh great, here we go again". I don't think you were intentionally trolling for responses from your fan club, but you may as well have been.

Celebrating our neighbourhood park/yard? You only were 'like that' due to the usual suspects assuming I am trying to start something versus what the actual intent is.

None of this was urban versus sub, but simply showing how liveable Downtown and urban neighbourhoods are.

Bravo for doing what you always do by taking it as something else.

You should really try to develop some self awareness on how your posts are going to be perceived and reacted to. As soon as I saw your post I was like "oh great, here we go again". I don't think you were intentionally trolling for responses from your fan club, but you may as well have been.

Celebrating our neighbourhood park/yard? You only were 'like that' due to the usual suspects assuming I am trying to start something versus what the actual intent is.

Or not.

listen to what he said.... learn from it rather become defensive ........., have fun with it ! Because, really....it's funny.

By sharing a photo of my green space and celebrating how it contributes to urban living? Hardly.

But I certainly expected the usual suspects to do what they do.

No, you shared a picture of OUR (not your) public green space & tried to make it seem like a public park obviates the need for private green space like a backyard. Once your point was thoroughly dismissed you attempted to move the goalposts & got all defensive about your "sharing" & now here we are.

Maybe if you could fess up to your foibles instead of trying to weasel out of the accountability for your own terrible posting people like myself wouldn't feel the need to correct your constant & continuous missteps. But no, you'd rather keep trying to explain how you're always right & other people are just taking you wrong (which is a hilarious position for someone in a communications- & spin-centric role like yours to take).

Giving less of a damn than ever… Can't laugh at the ignorant if you ignore them!

Nothing wrong with your photo, but your accompanying sarcastic comment did not at all help your case. maybe something like:
"Our next-door park. For many, it's as good as a back yard". You probably wouldn't incite your fan club that way.

By sharing a photo of my green space and celebrating how it contributes to urban living? Hardly.

But I certainly expected the usual suspects to do what they do.

Is that really ' YOUR ; green space ?. Cause I'm pretty sure... to do anything, with that back yard. You need extensive approval ! , documentation, licensing, permitting.....I want to see you set up a slip and slide for the kids .

Nothing wrong with your photo, but your accompanying sarcastic comment did not at all help your case. maybe something like:
"Our next-door park. For many, it's as good as a back yard". You probably wouldn't incite your fan club that way.

Yep.

Giving less of a damn than ever… Can't laugh at the ignorant if you ignore them!

It's a nice park/school site, but it hardly replaces or does what a back yard/front yard does. You're certainly not going let your kids play in this park unsupervised while you are in your kitchen cooking supper, and also I echo what chumpking said.. you can't enjoy a beer or have a fire.

but it's a nice park.

Isn't that cultural, though, and not entirely rational? I'm in my late forties, and I certainly played in analogous places while my parents were in their kitchen cooking supper (from a very young age) as a child. And my friends in the Netherlands who live in cities certainly "let" their kids play in neighbourhood parks without supervision even right now.

Even the laws that produce the "can't have a beer" situation are more a product of our culture than anything rational (i.e. it's certainly not like that in the UK).

Posting a photo of my front/backyard where the neighbourhoods kids, families, dogs play and how wonderful it is to have this for our community/neighbourhood and having the usual/classic/tired group jump on it and criticize it... yup, bravo.

Anyways.

I drive by this park site often. It's mostly empty all the time, outside of when the DECL organizes a clean the neighbourhood thing, which is what your photo is from no?

It's a nice park/school site, but it hardly replaces or does what a back yard/front yard does. You're certainly not going let your kids play in this park unsupervised while you are in your kitchen cooking supper, and also I echo what chumpking said.. you can't enjoy a beer or have a fire.

but it's a nice park.

Isn't that cultural, though, and not entirely rational? I'm in my late forties, and I certainly played in analogous places while my parents were in their kitchen cooking supper (from a very young age) as a child. And my friends in the Netherlands who live in cities certainly "let" their kids play in neighbourhood parks without supervision even right now.

Even the laws that produce the "can't have a beer" situation are more a product of our culture than anything rational (i.e. it's certainly not like that in the UK).

In our day . Information was limited....we didn't know what Agenda 21 was....we were in the dark . Similar to how this city is acting . working behind closed doors, breaking laws ! deceiving and manipulating the public.

I don't see anything wrong with your comments IanO. Nothing wrong with promoting downtown or any other part of Edmonton. Good job. Its too bad there could not be more urbanization and building in downtown though. In your block alone I count seven vacant lots turned into parking. Old buildings should not be bulldozed unless a new one is coming in. I would much rather see an old building fixed up with a small business or something than to see the empty lots. The older buildings also add character and add to that urban feeling. Maybe some lots could be rezoned to allow duplexes and fourplexes to attract people downtown. Even single family on the periphery as long as they were upscale homes. Annexation will be taking place in the fall with new lands right out to EIA and Beaumont and from Devon to Meridian Road. Developers must be licking their chops. The Crossroads Industrial Park may finally get going now, just north of EIA. We can use the industrial taxes for sure. In this economy it may be slow going though but there seems to be demand out there still. It will be interesting to see how things go but I think new ideas outside the box for vacant lots in central Edmonton should be looked at. Continued success and thanks for your perspective.

I drive by this park site often. It's mostly empty all the time, outside of when the DECL organizes a clean the neighbourhood thing, which is what your photo is from no?

Pretty much. It's like that 1940's Downtown picture that gets posted right before people start getting wistful for the way we were & the former vibrancy of the Downtown core while ignoring when it was taken.

Giving less of a damn than ever… Can't laugh at the ignorant if you ignore them!

I drive by this park site often. It's mostly empty all the time, outside of when the DECL organizes a clean the neighbourhood thing, which is what your photo is from no?

Pretty much. It's like that 1940's Downtown picture that gets posted right before people start getting wistful for the way we were & the former vibrancy of the Downtown core while ignoring when it was taken.

You can't force vibrancy ! or think you can buy it !. ... it's natural ! No amount of money you throw at it

Anyone imagine that not everyone can afford private yards or that private yards as many understand them attached to a SF home is unsustainable and unachievable for many? Keep the posts up, Ian. I understand your message, and the idea that there needs to be a better balance of amenity and housing options in Edmonton. Urban living is possible and comfortable in Edmonton when the infrastructure reflects that possibility.

It's a nice park/school site, but it hardly replaces or does what a back yard/front yard does. You're certainly not going let your kids play in this park unsupervised while you are in your kitchen cooking supper, and also I echo what chumpking said.. you can't enjoy a beer or have a fire.

but it's a nice park.

Isn't that cultural, though, and not entirely rational? I'm in my late forties, and I certainly played in analogous places while my parents were in their kitchen cooking supper (from a very young age) as a child. And my friends in the Netherlands who live in cities certainly "let" their kids play in neighbourhood parks without supervision even right now.

Even the laws that produce the "can't have a beer" situation are more a product of our culture than anything rational (i.e. it's certainly not like that in the UK).

In our day . Information was limited....we didn't know what Agenda 21 was....we were in the dark . Similar to how this city is acting . working behind closed doors, breaking laws ! deceiving and manipulating the public.

Information may have been limited, but it was generally better. Agenda 21 is a non-binding UN sustainability document, and illusions that it is some sort of conspiracy to suppress the middle class is conspiracy-theory level dis-information. People let kids out of their sight much less these days for three big reasons:

Increased traffic and increased numbers of distracted drivers make streets less safe than they were in the past. so do improved vehicles that protect their drivers, smooth out the ride and make them feel comfortable driving at speeds that they wouldn't have 30 years ago. It's an increased danger.

TV news has brought every child disappearance on the continent into our living rooms. Non-family child abduction is incredibly rare, but we don't think of it that way.

Less overprotective parents are shamed by others, and in some cases are arrested or have children apprehended. Let a kid ride a tricycle *just* out of sight of the parents and passersby imagine the child has been abandoned. Don't strap an awkward bit of styrofoam to their heads before they ride in a bike trailer strapped in and people imagine that you're putting their lives at risk.

Anyone imagine that not everyone can afford private yards or that private yards as many understand them attached to a SF home is unsustainable and unachievable for many?

This is not the case in Edmonton, where the majority of current & forecasted growth for the next decades is expected to continue much like we've seen now, with the vast majority of growth (over 80%) to be in suburban neighbourhoods on the periphery. Land is cheap in Edmonton & we lack many of the constraints/limitations that forced the densification & urbanization that we're trying to induce artificially.

Originally Posted by GenWhy?

Keep the posts up, Ian. I understand your message, and the idea that there needs to be a better balance of amenity and housing options in Edmonton. Urban living is possible and comfortable in Edmonton when the infrastructure reflects that possibility.

The flight to the suburbs occurs in cities with the type of urban infrastructure that gives the "Downtown Uber Alles" contingent on C2E a planning priapism. Like, say Paris. Or London. Or any of the other cities trotted out after a vacation, divorced from context & used as the baseline for a "Why can't we do x like y?" posts. All the infrastructure & urbanist planning in the world won't make the tradeoffs palatable to the vast, vast majority of people/demographics.

Giving less of a damn than ever… Can't laugh at the ignorant if you ignore them!

Anyone imagine that not everyone can afford private yards or that private yards as many understand them attached to a SF home is unsustainable and unachievable for many?

This is not the case in Edmonton, where the majority of current & forecasted growth for the next decades is expected to continue much like we've seen now, with the vast majority of growth (over 80%) to be in suburban neighbourhoods on the periphery. Land is cheap in Edmonton & we lack many of the constraints/limitations that forced the densification & urbanization that we're trying to induce artificially.

Originally Posted by GenWhy?

Keep the posts up, Ian. I understand your message, and the idea that there needs to be a better balance of amenity and housing options in Edmonton. Urban living is possible and comfortable in Edmonton when the infrastructure reflects that possibility.

The flight to the suburbs occurs in cities with the type of urban infrastructure that gives the "Downtown Uber Alles" contingent on C2E a planning priapism. Like, say Paris. Or London. Or any of the other cities trotted out after a vacation, divorced from context & used as the baseline for a "Why can't we do x like y?" posts. All the infrastructure & urbanist planning in the world won't make the tradeoffs palatable to the vast, vast majority of people/demographics.

That's FAKE NEWS buddy !....... I can bring up every report, every statistic, every economic update and its projections are always wrong .... would you like me to tell you WHY its wrong ?
FAKE NEWS . FAKE PROPOGANDA !

So my taxes should go up and up so poor planning and zoning can continue and be sustained? Suburban growth on the periphery is fine, as long as it's planned and zoned well, and is efficient. Land is cheap, sure, but zoning dictates that mixed-use, monocultures, SF homes all exist. People want to live within the Mature Neighbourhood Overlay, and we should encourage better more diverse housing options within it, better transit, and better infrastructure. That is happening, and that's a good thing for the suburbs too. We can have a healthy core and a healthy suburb, but changes to design on many minor levels need to occur in both areas.

This recent derailment of the original point is brought to you by… False equivalency.

I see this a lot in the downtown versus suburban arguments. The OP starts out saying things in a rather unfortunate sarcastic tone about how a downtown park allegedly provides you the same amenities as your own backyard. The problem, outside of grass, a place to sit, the odd tree, and if you’re lucky a fire pit, there is no equivalency in form, function, or feel.

Your own backyard provides you a modicum of perceived freedom, and definitely a lot more control. While you are subject to noise bylaws, and your fire pit can come under (pardon the pun) fire from your neighbours, you have the right to invite who you want, when you want, and as many as your backyard can legally handle. You don’t need a permit, you can control the people you are mingling with, and for the most part you won’t be bothered by other people. This is what people are saying when they deride the original post. There is no lasting equivalency between a backyard that you own and control versus a park space (suburban or downtown) that you must share with everyone.

I will give you an example on the other side of the coin. A lot of this thread would be like me posting a very sarcastic post about my 6 acre yard and my 500 acre farm and somehow making the equivalency that it’s just like downtown living without the excess people. You talk about urban farming, I have a 2 acre orchard, a half-acre garden, and a 1 acre campground immediately adjacent my house. That doesn’t mention the yard around the house. I have 3 fire pits, can accommodate 40 RVs, multiple tents, have hosted parties upwards of 300 people, had MLA’s and politicians as well as local people show up, have reserved 220 acres as a nature preserve, have access to another natural 277 acres that is landlocked and only accessible by me, and of a partnership with local farmers which gives me access to another 3000+ acres of land. I have high-speed Internet, full cable, excellent cell service, I can get any coffee I want, I eat well, and every year I have a colossal fireworks display to celebrate whatever we feel like celebrating that year. Yes I do have photos to prove it.

So, if I opened up with that type of a post in a sarcastic delivery style, I would rightly be setting myself up to be called out on bragging, or on people saying that I’m sprawling, or people saying this is nowhere near being like downtown. They would be right. I’ve lived downtown – I’ve actually lived in downtown’s of many cities that would make Edmonton’s look like a farm. How I live now is nowhere near how one lives on 47th and 7th in New York, nor how I lived in Jasper Properties. There is no real equivalency between living downtown and living rural, even if I can access the same porn you do at the same speed you do (that should keep Top_Dawg happy).

And please...can we stop with the "sustainability" excuses? The NDP government is approving projects that blow this ideal out of the water (along with climate leadership goals)...and just because you don't "sprawl" doesn't make the lifestyle any less or more sustainable. It really comes down to a lifestyle choice because all types have issues especially as they grow.

That said...

A better way to open this conversation would be to say this:

I know this is not like having your own backyard, but living downtown gives me options like this. For those who want the downtown lifestyle, you can have access to green space.

Then post your pictures. If it degrades into an us v them yet again, at least you can say it started well.

Since calm logic doesn't work, I guess it is time to employ sarcasm. ...and before you call me an a-hole...remember, I am a Dick.

Posting a photo of my front/backyard where the neighbourhoods kids, families, dogs play and how wonderful it is to have this for our community/neighbourhood and having the usual/classic/tired group jump on it and criticize it... yup, bravo.

Anyways.

I drive by this park site often. It's mostly empty all the time, outside of when the DECL organizes a clean the neighbourhood thing, which is what your photo is from no?

Posting a photo of my front/backyard where the neighbourhoods kids, families, dogs play and how wonderful it is to have this for our community/neighbourhood and having the usual/classic/tired group jump on it and criticize it... yup, bravo.

Anyways.

I drive by this park site often. It's mostly empty all the time, outside of when the DECL organizes a clean the neighbourhood thing, which is what your photo is from no?

Actually no, it is well used.

I see lots of people using it as well.

Since calm logic doesn't work, I guess it is time to employ sarcasm. ...and before you call me an a-hole...remember, I am a Dick.

That's FAKE NEWS buddy !....... I can bring up every report, every statistic, every economic update and its projections are always wrong .... would you like me to tell you WHY its wrong ?
FAKE NEWS . FAKE PROPOGANDA !

Ok, then go ahead and start a thread on why the idea is fake news. I'd like to see the research.

Since calm logic doesn't work, I guess it is time to employ sarcasm. ...and before you call me an a-hole...remember, I am a Dick.

Eh, my backyard is just a patch of lawn I walk across to get to my car. It's pointless. Not a single neighbour uses their yard for anything more than a place to let their pet take a dump. If we had front yards, they'd be even more useless. I'm confident that over 99% of all people in Edmonton don't use their yard(s) ever, for anything.

"Men never do evil so completely and cheerfully as when they do it from religious conviction" - Blaise Pascal

Eh, my backyard is just a patch of lawn I walk across to get to my car. It's pointless. Not a single neighbour uses their yard for anything more than a place to let their pet take a dump. If we had front yards, they'd be even more useless. I'm confident that over 99% of all people in Edmonton don't use their yard(s) ever, for anything.

Can't believe you call others losers.....a real man be feeding his family with that space. . a slide . park ...making use ! you seem like the real ...you know /.....l

Eh, my backyard is just a patch of lawn I walk across to get to my car. It's pointless. Not a single neighbour uses their yard for anything more than a place to let their pet take a dump. If we had front yards, they'd be even more useless. I'm confident that over 99% of all people in Edmonton don't use their yard(s) ever, for anything.

I'd debate you on that 99% figure and I am confident I'd win. When I had the single family home in Edmonton...or other places...the back yard was well used for a lot more than a walk to a car or a pet dump. I used mine extensively, and during the summer, almost daily. Others in Parkview and Laurier Heights were the same. It was not uncommon to have backyard get-togethers nightly. In Parkview, we intentionally built easy access gates between neighbours so that we could visit on a whim. People had hot tubs, fire pits, sandboxes, swing sets, gardens, pets, koi ponds, gazebos, barbeques, smokehouses, botanic gardens...you name it. Front yards, while not as well used and really there due to setback constraints, still had some life.

Public parks are as much as, if not moreso, a place people walk through or let their pets take a dump ad nauseum. Ask some of our RIverdale re

Since calm logic doesn't work, I guess it is time to employ sarcasm. ...and before you call me an a-hole...remember, I am a Dick.

Eh, my backyard is just a patch of lawn I walk across to get to my car. It's pointless. Not a single neighbour uses their yard for anything more than a place to let their pet take a dump. If we had front yards, they'd be even more useless. I'm confident that over 99% of all people in Edmonton don't use their yard(s) ever, for anything.

Can't believe you call others losers.....a real man be feeding his family with that space. . a slide . park ...making use ! you seem like the real ...you know /.....l

What the....?

Calm down.

Since calm logic doesn't work, I guess it is time to employ sarcasm. ...and before you call me an a-hole...remember, I am a Dick.

Eh, my backyard is just a patch of lawn I walk across to get to my car. It's pointless. Not a single neighbour uses their yard for anything more than a place to let their pet take a dump. If we had front yards, they'd be even more useless. I'm confident that over 99% of all people in Edmonton don't use their yard(s) ever, for anything.

Can't believe you call others losers.....a real man be feeding his family with that space. . a slide . park ...making use ! you seem like the real ...you know /.....l

What the....?

Calm down.

Richards. maybe you should go look at what he said . in my homeless project . before settling down. ....Chmilz made enemy with a lot of people!

Richard, why not just get rid of champking? this is the same person that's been banned here many many times under various usernames, as he physically threatened people who were involved with certain companies, amongst all the other stuff. He posts all sorts of crap too that just serves to rile people up. Someone called him a loser, but that isn't much in return for all the various name calling he does on just about every single post. Don the Con, Scamdel, IanQ, I could go on. I wonder how Ken feels about this person being around again?

Richard, why not just get rid of champking? this is the same person that's been banned here many many times under various usernames, as he physically threatened people who were involved with certain companies, amongst all the other stuff. He posts all sorts of crap too that just serves to rile people up. Someone called him a loser, but that isn't much in return for all the various name calling he does on just about every single post. Don the Con, Scamdel, IanQ, I could go on. I wonder how Ken feels about this person being around again?

It's a good test of our ability to think for ourselves and not let words, words typed by anonymous posters no less, control our brains, our thoughts and our emotions.

In the end, urban people are comfortable relaxing surrounded fairly tightly by strangers. Suburban people are not, and this is the only sensible tidbit of argument here.

Indeed, all urban paradises are always chock full of ordinary people enjoying themselves. The problem -- to the extent you may or may not wish to consider it one -- comes when the common space empties out and the underclasses and/or hoodlums move in. The moment of nightfall, in other words, which need not come strictly at sunset.

I've had my share of disagreements with IanO, but in this one I'll gladly join his corner.

I don't think there really is that difference between urban and suburban people. Suburban people seem are just as comfortable at their cramped coffee places, restaurants and the like as urban dwellers are in theirs.

It is not about coffee shops, it is about lifestyle. AShetsen says it correctly. If you like an environment of density, then an urban park will not be an issue for you. You may or may not liken it to a backyard. Suburban people like that modicum of "ownership" and "privacy".

When you go to a restaurant, you aren't expecting an empty place. Indeed, when you go for that experience, a dead place is usually an ominous sign of bad quality.

The real conversation is about what you expect out of your home life. To compare the two experiences as equitable is unfair to either experience. One is not necessarily better than the other...it is just what you want. So, we can leave the dripping sarcasm out. I'm glad that Edmonton is developing its urban core. But as of now, I am happier with my life outside the core. I don't expect an urbanist to enjoy my world.

Since calm logic doesn't work, I guess it is time to employ sarcasm. ...and before you call me an a-hole...remember, I am a Dick.

Coffee shops or not, there is no separate species of urbanist, no innate crowd philia or phobia related to where one lives.

Suburban people and urban people alike relax at crowded festivals and crowded beaches, and in deserted wilderness, and in some situations there is a special kind of privacy in a large enough crowd that you're not expected to greet your neighbour.

There are so many other things in everyone's life that combine to influence the kind of place each prefers.
How we value free time versus yard work (or whether we find it to be not work but a pleasure), the size of your family or social circle, and where they are. Whether you need space for a hobby or business, what you need to be close to, time issues and money issues. A million things and it may all come down to one good or bad experience.

Richard, why not just get rid of champking? this is the same person that's been banned here many many times under various usernames, as he physically threatened people who were involved with certain companies, amongst all the other stuff. He posts all sorts of crap too that just serves to rile people up. Someone called him a loser, but that isn't much in return for all the various name calling he does on just about every single post. Don the Con, Scamdel, IanQ, I could go on. I wonder how Ken feels about this person being around again?

Eh, my backyard is just a patch of lawn I walk across to get to my car. It's pointless. Not a single neighbour uses their yard for anything more than a place to let their pet take a dump. If we had front yards, they'd be even more useless. I'm confident that over 99% of all people in Edmonton don't use their yard(s) ever, for anything.

I'd debate you on that 99% figure and I am confident I'd win. When I had the single family home in Edmonton...or other places...the back yard was well used for a lot more than a walk to a car or a pet dump. I used mine extensively, and during the summer, almost daily. Others in Parkview and Laurier Heights were the same. It was not uncommon to have backyard get-togethers nightly. In Parkview, we intentionally built easy access gates between neighbours so that we could visit on a whim. People had hot tubs, fire pits, sandboxes, swing sets, gardens, pets, koi ponds, gazebos, barbeques, smokehouses, botanic gardens...you name it. Front yards, while not as well used and really there due to setback constraints, still had some life.

Public parks are as much as, if not moreso, a place people walk through or let their pets take a dump ad nauseum. Ask some of our RIverdale re

Ok you might win if I stick to 99%. But I'll stand by "the majority". I know all the reasons why people use(d) back yards, however I don't think they do as much. It's entirely anecdotal, but I have a fantastic vantage point, I can see into the yards of about 50 single family homes, and there's a total of two neighbours that I see using them. By use, it's important to make a distinction between operating the BBQ and having a BBQ event with people in the yard. And even then, those two neighbours only do it maybe 3-4 times per summer.

"Men never do evil so completely and cheerfully as when they do it from religious conviction" - Blaise Pascal

Well, as long as everyone is bragging about the size of their yards, mine is the river valley!

My condo is just a couple of minutes hike from the bike trails and picnic tables around and near Rossdale, and about 5-10 minute walk to LMP. I have a great view of the valley from my patio, from which I have enjoyed many morning coffees, afternoon beers, and evening BBQs. Don't want my own private yard, I can do without all the maintenance that comes with it. I have only considered a yard when giving some thought towards canine ownership, but get put off by the fact that dogs are such needy creatures.

“You have to dream big. If we want to be a little city, we dream small. If we want to be a big city, we dream big, and this is a big idea.” - Mayor Stephen Mandel, 02/22/2012

Eh, my backyard is just a patch of lawn I walk across to get to my car. It's pointless. Not a single neighbour uses their yard for anything more than a place to let their pet take a dump. If we had front yards, they'd be even more useless. I'm confident that over 99% of all people in Edmonton don't use their yard(s) ever, for anything.

I'd debate you on that 99% figure and I am confident I'd win. When I had the single family home in Edmonton...or other places...the back yard was well used for a lot more than a walk to a car or a pet dump. I used mine extensively, and during the summer, almost daily. Others in Parkview and Laurier Heights were the same. It was not uncommon to have backyard get-togethers nightly. In Parkview, we intentionally built easy access gates between neighbours so that we could visit on a whim. People had hot tubs, fire pits, sandboxes, swing sets, gardens, pets, koi ponds, gazebos, barbeques, smokehouses, botanic gardens...you name it. Front yards, while not as well used and really there due to setback constraints, still had some life.

Public parks are as much as, if not moreso, a place people walk through or let their pets take a dump ad nauseum. Ask some of our RIverdale re

Ok you might win if I stick to 99%. But I'll stand by "the majority". I know all the reasons why people use(d) back yards, however I don't think they do as much. It's entirely anecdotal, but I have a fantastic vantage point, I can see into the yards of about 50 single family homes, and there's a total of two neighbours that I see using them. By use, it's important to make a distinction between operating the BBQ and having a BBQ event with people in the yard. And even then, those two neighbours only do it maybe 3-4 times per summer.

House design plays a big role here. Growing up we had a front drive, rear garage. Would often get out of the car and talk with neighbours, do gardening, play with the dog, sit, etc. And the yard had a large shade tree and perimeter vegetation etc that was quite nice. A low fence along the side alley meant that we'd often even talk with more distant neighbours out for a walk or out on their rear driveways.

Bought my own house and we drive into the attached garage and talk to no one. The back door is down a hallway. Horrible design that gave absolutely no thought to incorporating / integrating the huge yard into the house. The family roo's patio doors were equally bad. Our renos have helped somewhat but it's still highly flawed. I'd love to design and build my own home. Nonetheless, were in the yard frequently in the summer playing something of other.

Now, my grandparents' house that was downtown had a front covered porch, but interestingly, they had a very tall hedge across the front next to the city sidewalk with a hole cut in it for the front sidewalk. The backyard was all garden and the front was the play area. However, they obviously wanted privacy from the street out front.

I don't think there really is that difference between urban and suburban people. Suburban people seem are just as comfortable at their cramped coffee places, restaurants and the like as urban dwellers are in theirs.

True. True in part. The comfort is the same but certainly the places and maybe the people are different. And the distinction between urban and suburban "their" places is more universal than it may seem.

Tati's movie "Mon Oncle" was all about this very thing, but in 1950s France. What is urban and suburban there is pretty well what we're talking about.

Ok you might win if I stick to 99%. But I'll stand by "the majority". I know all the reasons why people use(d) back yards, however I don't think they do as much. It's entirely anecdotal, but I have a fantastic vantage point, I can see into the yards of about 50 single family homes, and there's a total of two neighbours that I see using them. By use, it's important to make a distinction between operating the BBQ and having a BBQ event with people in the yard. And even then, those two neighbours only do it maybe 3-4 times per summer.

I'll still take you up on that bet. It is very telling on your confidence in your "majority" when you then qualify it with removing the gaggle of everyday regular uses vs a BBQ "event" or other such case where more than just your family's personal use would be needed to count. Remember, you made the point that all a yard was...was a dog dump and extra steps to the car. So, you can't keep changing the definition of use...but even given this desire to have more than your family involved as a metric...I'd still take you up on the bet. I know when I go to visit, especially during the summer months...sitting inside is not what happens.

...but this still points to the conversation of lifestyle choice. Coffee shops and restaurants aren't the metric here, as like I said before and you all conveniently ignored, coffee shops and the like are expected to be busy. Business 101...no patrons...no business.

Since calm logic doesn't work, I guess it is time to employ sarcasm. ...and before you call me an a-hole...remember, I am a Dick.