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Re: Llewellyn Bikes

Originally Posted by WFSTEKL

I might suggest that you reinforce your Therapy by showing us some of your Gitanes, eh?

Ohh, that is so tempting. Mostly because I know just how much that would get up Dazza's nose. However, if I were to attempt to describe the workmanship on your average gitane, as compared to Dazza's workmanship (the point of this thread that I have led astray) then it would be something akin to comparing the beauty of the Sistine Chapel to the (insert sarcastic tone) panache of Paris Hilton. Thus, I will refrain from sullying this site with any photo of a gitane. They were simply the best marketed, cheap production bike of their day. (and were ridden by some very cool characters) Most people around here know a good shore line when they see one, and I'll not be responsible for causing 85% of the members of this forum to puke on their keyboards. Now, back to Dazza..........
Here is Kay's Cookie Monster.

Re: Llewellyn Bikes

Thanks Dazza, I got the same Columbus seat tube. I'll PM you for details.

I made a fixed gear this summer with your sloping lugset and it was a big hit with the customer...I look forward to working with the XL set too. Did you really design these in 3D CAD or did you start with physical parts?

Re: Llewellyn Bikes

Originally Posted by briordon

Thanks Dazza, I got the same Columbus seat tube. I'll PM you for details.

I made a fixed gear this summer with your sloping lugset and it was a big hit with the customer...I look forward to working with the XL set too. Did you really design these in 3D CAD or did you start with physical parts?

My way was
in the beginning the stem lugs and the XL Compact Lug set was done by fabricating a lug set (a lathe is a beautiful thing) along with which I drew some 2D AutoCAD drawings for some principle dimensions.
A draftsman at the foundry (LongShen) did the 3D working drawings that the tool maker uses.
However there is a loss of interpretation from the intended vision to the item in the hand during these processes.
Longshen's tool maker works in Solidworks, this got me thinking.........
I also took a trip to Taiwan (2005) and visited LongShen, to better understand the process and advance my Phd in lugs.
At home I got the text books, did the lessons and spent way too much time getting my head around a way to obtain true perpendicular shorelines to the tube axis in a lug. This is actually not done by their drafts person, they use a series of planes and cuts, which some times does not give the best result.
Anyhow I eventually got that to work well enough to do some lugs models.
I did the simple DT gear cable casting (the little fellas) in 3D and the whole process from design to item in the hand was sweet.
So from then on I knew the only way was the best way and that way was to create my own 3D models of the parts I needed here to make the frames I desired.
So yes, I did the 3D drawings here at my desk listening to Nick Cave and the Bad Seeds or Vivaldi.
The next three lugs sets from 2005 to 2010 are the OS compact, OS Custodian and the last one which was available last June is the XL Cadenzia lug set which was a Pegoretti Llewellyn collaboration. Also the socket dropouts with M5 eyelets and the Limpets are all started from 3D models I create.
One has complete control of the design as it is hard enough dealing with one's own incompetence let alone the incompetence of others.
One can email the CAD file and get plastic rapid prototypes made locally to confirm details and or aesthetics before the tooling is made. It is truly science fiction.
It is a lot of work and hassle, and I finance it all from the equity in our home, but I do this because the parts did not exist before, I need them here to make frames the way I desire, to allow things such as lugged construction in XL tube sizes.

I am not motivated to create and produce a part for exploiting any perceived need the market may suggest.
The part exists because I needed it to fill a hole in my day to day work in my workshop. I see no need or sense to duplicate any thing that already exists in the frame building world for my Llewellyn frame construction. However to justify the costs involved I offer the lugs to the market so eventually if all goes well I might recoup the outlays of $ and time and resources that my one and only pair if hands cannot do here with me just making frames with these parts.
It is rewarding to see and hear from builders using these parts, it is very nice and I thank them and I urge them to keep sharing their pics with us all.
So we now have a OS and XL lug set for sloping top tubes, and in June this year the Cadenzia lug set for XL tube lugged frames with a horizontal top tube.
No such lugs ever existed for road frames.
Any questions?

Re: Llewellyn Bikes

Originally Posted by e-RICHIE

dazza -

what do you consider to be the minimum standard(s) for taking money for a frame, as in - being in the framebuilding business atmo?

Richie, I have not forgotten your question
I just need the phone to stop
people to stop calling in
writing too much email
and work at the bench and ponder this question.
It is a question that I feel I need to give some thought to, considering the environment we find today.
I will be back later

Cheers Dazza The rock star is dying. And it's a small tragedy. Rock stars have blogs now. I have no use for that kind of rock star.
Nick Cave

Re: Llewellyn Bikes

Some people like to see where people started their business or adventure, the first step off the cliff as it were. The other day, Dazza and I stopped by his mom's house. I snapped these photos.

Listening to the echos of the files. The first frames were built here in 1989.Fromthebeginning.jpg
(The old frame on the wall is not a Llewellyn, it's Danny Day's old Hoffy that was too damaged to repair. 14 years later, it remains. The wheel stand is his first truing stand, purchased from Cerse Benedetto in the early 80s...

An old training wheel on the hooks. The hooks are old mud guard wires with felt. IMG_4245.jpg

Re: Llewellyn Bikes

Very cool, thanks for sharing!

The cast parts that I've made (~1000L vacuum vessels) were all sand cast...this process is really tough since you have to design in many of the process limitations: location of parting lines, draft angles, core shift, etc. With investment casting, I think a lot of this goes away? Did Long Shen help much with the transition to production?

Re: Llewellyn Bikes

Originally Posted by briordon

Very cool, thanks for sharing!

The cast parts that I've made (~1000L vacuum vessels) were all sand cast...this process is really tough since you have to design in many of the process limitations: location of parting lines, draft angles, core shift, etc. With investment casting, I think a lot of this goes away? Did Long Shen help much with the transition to production?

LongShen was well established and doing investment cast parts for bicycles long before I knew who they were.
If I remember correctly Allan Kerr and his wife Shirley worked at Giant, before starting their own foundry, LongShen.
They cast other parts besides steel frame parts.
So they have all the tricks and knowledge.
They will show you if there is a problem in the design and if some thing has to be modified to ensure production can proceed.
The tool maker takes care of details with the tooling, we just show them what we want, they do the rest.
They are good people.
I tried to do this in Australia, but they were frightened with the idea of casting many parts with 1.20mm wall thickness, and all the risk would be mine.
So one goes to the people who can do it, and have done it for every one for many years. (pic below)
I saw an actual pour of parts (pic below)

Re: Llewellyn Bikes

Ginger was reading her Craft arts INTERNATIONAL mag this morning, and as soon as I got back in the door from 60 ks on my training hack fixie
she bought this bit of text and quote to my attention from a chap by the name of Mark Grunseit. (#80 page 62/63)
because she knew I would appreciate it (She is a treasure!) and I would like to share it

Richard Morrell writes
Grunseit's work, which requires extensive manipulation of glass to create a painterly effect, has occasionally been misinterpreted (and devalued) as painting on glass. This misunderstanding has prompted him to think long and hard about striving for excellence and refined technique in the the pursuit of artistic expression, raising such questions such as the following:

'Is there any point making the work by the most arduous and technically difficult processes if the viewer doesn't appreciate or value what they are seeing? How much education of an audience is necessary before they understand? Does any body care?'
-- Mark Grunseit

Some thing to ponder while rolling the pedals over

Last edited by Dazza; 11-20-2010 at 08:09 PM.
Reason: nothing sinister, forgot to add a name

Cheers Dazza The rock star is dying. And it's a small tragedy. Rock stars have blogs now. I have no use for that kind of rock star.
Nick Cave

Re: Llewellyn Bikes

Originally Posted by WFSTEKL

If you are extrinsically motivated, it matters. If you are intrinsically motivated, then it matters not.

It was the audience education part that I thought interesting. Marc Grunseit is a glass artist who does some technically challenging work because it suits his vision.
Audience education and the appreciation or lack of appreciation of what they're looking at seems to go hand in hand and across many fields.

Here's a nice frame that Dazza picked up from Joe Cosgrove on Saturday. :)

Re: Llewellyn Bikes

Originally Posted by Dazza

This can be hard to bulls eye when you have a less than fit rider but one must take an aim.

Any before/after stories? The case of a cutom build for an unfit rider, who then became fitter? And ergo, ye two heads agreed to frame #2 for the fitter self, cuz frame #1 was for the client's unfit self? Kinda like fat pants and slim pants?

Re: Llewellyn Bikes

Originally Posted by Joseph Brian Starck

Any before/after stories? The case of a cutom build for an unfit rider, who then became fitter? And ergo, ye two heads agreed to frame #2 for the fitter self, cuz frame #1 was for the client's unfit self? Kinda like fat pants and slim pants?

No before/after stories
The rider and I have a chat, we decide and agree on the path and direction to suit the needs.

Cheers Dazza The rock star is dying. And it's a small tragedy. Rock stars have blogs now. I have no use for that kind of rock star.
Nick Cave

Re: Llewellyn Bikes

Archie, steam cycles are so cool.
I thought that in my next life I might make a flash steam powered cycle
and putter putter at 80 metric clicks an hour with leather helmet, coat and goggles
Not much of a water tank on that one compared to the fuel tank.

Cheers Dazza The rock star is dying. And it's a small tragedy. Rock stars have blogs now. I have no use for that kind of rock star.
Nick Cave