TangoLima wrote:It seems to me that an electrical version of the Merlin Owl steam test on a remote island would be a good idea.

I'm... not quite there yet, but I'm getting really close.

If the final scene really IS a message from Schueler, then that would certainly imply that Schueler MIGHT have left behind a "do not fire on planetary targets under any circumstances" secret computer order, which MIGHT mean that electricity is safe now...

On the other hand, if that message was a forgery by the inner circle, I would definitely want to wait at least a decade or two to see what happened and how things developed, before i basically set out to see at EXACTLY what point the defense network would finally respond.

Either way, probably best if they don't have ANY witnesses or evidence after the fact, which might reveal that such an orbital response actually did happen. Safest place to run those tests would probably be on a wooden barge, in the emptiest possible ocean location on the far side of the world. Somewhere where not even a falling star, a nuclear flash, or a resulting shock wave could ever be seen by anyone, and no craters could possibly be left behind.

TangoLima wrote:It seems to me that an electrical version of the Merlin Owl steam test on a remote island would be a good idea.

I'm... not quite there yet, but I'm getting really close.

If the final scene really IS a message from Schueler, then that would certainly imply that Schueler MIGHT have left behind a "do not fire on planetary targets under any circumstances" secret computer order, which MIGHT mean that electricity is safe now...

On the other hand, if that message was a forgery by the inner circle, I would definitely want to wait at least a decade or two to see what happened and how things developed, before i basically set out to see at EXACTLY what point the defense network would finally respond.

Either way, probably best if they don't have ANY witnesses or evidence after the fact, which might reveal that such an orbital response actually did happen. Safest place to run those tests would probably be on a wooden barge, in the emptiest possible ocean location on the far side of the world. Somewhere where not even a falling star, a nuclear flash, or a resulting shock wave could ever be seen by anyone, and no craters could possibly be left behind.

Problem is, even if Schueller left such an order, there is no way to know what could Chichiro left as "backup" policy.

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- Who would won in battle between strawman Liberal-Democrat and strawman Conservative-Republican?- Scarecrow from Oz; he was strawman before it became political.

If the final scene really IS a message from Schueler, then that would certainly imply that Schueler MIGHT have left behind a "do not fire on planetary targets under any circumstances" secret computer order, which MIGHT mean that electricity is safe now...

Problem is, even if Schueller left such an order, there is no way to know what could Chichiro left as "backup" policy.

Well that's an ugly thought... if Chichiro WASN'T completely convinced in Schueller's loyalty, the total defeat of the Shan-Wei rebels, and the long-term reliability of the orbital defense network....

Then the logical emergency backup plan would be... what? Did Schueller have complete access to the Main Temple? If he was locked out of some of the Main Temple functions, there could easily be an entire fleet of assault shuttles and tactical nukes under the temple, with an Owl-like AI in command, and some sort of standing order from Chichiro...

an order such as, say, "In the event that the temple infrastructure detects recurring, intelligible, man-made radio broadcasts, reveal yourself, ask for a quorum of bishops, and grant any requests they might make for divine retribution or favors?"

I suppose any military bunker, anywhere, might theoretically have been secretly placed for that purpose, but the Main Temple would be the obvious choice... IF Schueler was satisfactorily locked out from most of those controls. otherwise, there might be an emergency backup temple somewhere.

I think it's time to re-read the introduction to Book 1, and figure out what assets might still have been lying around...

Krenn wrote:Well that's an ugly thought... if Chichiro WASN'T completely convinced in Schueller's loyalty, the total defeat of the Shan-Wei rebels, and the long-term reliability of the orbital defense network....

He most certainly wasn't sure of each. Even if he trust Schueller completely (which is doubtful, especially if Chichiro actually backstabbed Langhorne and was behind Alexandria destruction) he clearly could not trust all his staff. And, as I pointed in other topic - it was far too simple for some "demon" to hide a holoprojector or something in some enclave, programming it to lay dormant and activate after several hundred years for some unsheduled "Archangel revelation". SOME backups clearly need to be installed.

Then the logical emergency backup plan would be... what? Did Schueller have complete access to the Main Temple? If he was locked out of some of the Main Temple functions, there could easily be an entire fleet of assault shuttles and tactical nukes under the temple, with an Owl-like AI in command, and some sort of standing order from Chichiro...

Schueller mentioned to Wylsynns that "Archangels" would return. He clearly meant more than one, and probably not (just) himself - otherwise he would said that HE would return. And it was not a common knowledge - even the Inquisition have no clue about that.

an order such as, say, "In the event that the temple infrastructure detects recurring, intelligible, man-made radio broadcasts, reveal yourself, ask for a quorum of bishops, and grant any requests they might make for divine retribution or favors?"

Doubt that. It would basically means that the fate of the whole planet would be at hands of AI... and since even "operation Ark" planners weren't ready to rely on AI's and stored personalities for a long-time project, I seriously doubt that Chichiro would. Especially since it would be equivally simpler for him to just store himself as electronic personality and attend the matters personally.

I suppose any military bunker, anywhere, might theoretically have been secretly placed for that purpose, but the Main Temple would be the obvious choice... IF Schueler was satisfactorily locked out from most of those controls. otherwise, there might be an emergency backup temple somewhere.

Well, from the military point of view, it is pretty pointless to build bunker where its location is obvious for any opponent and there are a lot of population around, which would not only suffer the consequences of, say, nuclear attack against the Temple, but also would make check-ups much more troublesome, and (in case somebody blew Temple up with megaton-size nuke) would be at least a handful of vitnesses.

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- Who would won in battle between strawman Liberal-Democrat and strawman Conservative-Republican?- Scarecrow from Oz; he was strawman before it became political.

TangoLima wrote:It seems to me that an electrical version of the Merlin Owl steam test on a remote island would be a good idea.

No. Far too great a risk of waking up something you really want to stay asleep.

When you think about it though, a bigger response should've been triggered when Merlin first probed the orbital defenses and one of the platform defense satellites blasted his SNARC remote out of the sky with a laser. That's more than just Safeholdians with electric power. It's high tech, space capable hardware that could potentially reach the platforms and destroy them! A Schueler hack is one plausible explanation for why nothing significant ever came of that incident.

I don't know how you'd detect electricity itself from orbit. Magnetic fields around wires are weak, and drop off quickly enough, that even a hundred yards away you'd be lucky to pick up anything. Seems more like the assets in orbit would be keyed to look for indications of power plants and other infrastructure on the ground. Or the telltale night side signature of electrically illuminated cities. At additional expense you could hide that stuff from view. Minimize or eliminate plant emissions, put the lines underground instead of on poles, etc. And mandatory blackout curtains for everyone.

Oh, and no broadcasting of any power. Skip OTA and go straight to cable TV!

ecortez wrote:When you think about it though, a bigger response should've been triggered when Merlin first probed the orbital defenses and one of the platform defense satellites blasted his SNARC remote out of the sky with a laser. That's more than just Safeholdians with electric power. It's high tech, space capable hardware that could potentially reach the platforms and destroy them! A Schueler hack is one plausible explanation for why nothing significant ever came of that incident.

Actually, it isn't. Platforms were clearly programmed not to include Federation-level tech into search algorithms, so this may pretty well include orbital equipment. They essentially defended against unauthorised entry into the defended area, maybe without even analysing the threat - because it was of no concern for them. There are probably quite a lot of junk (including high-tech junk) remaining on orbit after Safehold colonization - old sattelites, broken SNARC's, just debris thrown out of colonial transport, ect. And lets not forget the WaF, during which the threat to Rakurai array was clearly considered as possible.

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- Who would won in battle between strawman Liberal-Democrat and strawman Conservative-Republican?- Scarecrow from Oz; he was strawman before it became political.

Dilandu wrote:Actually, it isn't. Platforms were clearly programmed not to include Federation-level tech into search algorithms, so this may pretty well include orbital equipment. They essentially defended against unauthorised entry into the defended area, maybe without even analysing the threat - because it was of no concern for them. There are probably quite a lot of junk (including high-tech junk) remaining on orbit after Safehold colonization - old sattelites, broken SNARC's, just debris thrown out of colonial transport, ect. And lets not forget the WaF, during which the threat to Rakurai array was clearly considered as possible.

There's no way to be sure without capturing one of those smaller satellites or hacking into a platform. At the very least (as you mentioned) there doesn't seem to be any real threat analysis going on - otherwise the length of time that's passed, and the sudden appearance of a high tech interloper, would've raised some kind of alarm. This is exactly what you'd expect upon the delayed activation of a secret depot.