Seeking feedback on bible context discussion. - Atheist Nexus2016-12-09T17:46:52Zhttp://atheistnexus.org/forum/topics/seeking-feedback-on-bible-context-discussion?commentId=2182797%3AComment%3A2128470&xg_source=activity&feed=yes&xn_auth=noMaybe the reason I'm an athei…tag:atheistnexus.org,2012-12-24:2182797:Comment:21292012012-12-24T12:59:34.349ZDyslexic's DOGhttp://atheistnexus.org/profile/DislexicDoggy
<p>Maybe the reason I'm an atheist is my IQ score of 145, though I don't think so, because I was a believer for a short time, though I ran a series of tests that the Pentecostal Christian group failed badly on, so I left, never to return.</p>
<p>I believe that if even highly intelligent individuals fall into the superstitious traps that religious indoctrination practices, they too may become stolid theists. </p>
<p>Such as a highly intelligent man I knew that became a priest and 30+ years…</p>
<p>Maybe the reason I'm an atheist is my IQ score of 145, though I don't think so, because I was a believer for a short time, though I ran a series of tests that the Pentecostal Christian group failed badly on, so I left, never to return.</p>
<p>I believe that if even highly intelligent individuals fall into the superstitious traps that religious indoctrination practices, they too may become stolid theists. </p>
<p>Such as a highly intelligent man I knew that became a priest and 30+ years later, realized he was wrong. He retired and died an atheist.</p>
<p>Statistics are deceptive, they rarely give an honest picture.</p>
<p>Aye M8!</p> And that is ofttimes the resp…tag:atheistnexus.org,2012-12-23:2182797:Comment:21285322012-12-23T16:22:19.531ZJames Kzhttp://atheistnexus.org/profile/JamesKz
<p>And that is ofttimes the response one will get in such an argument.</p>
<p>The rules of debate have built-in a sort of humility, that is, if your position is shown to be false or lacking, you must acknowledge that fact.</p>
<p>In the case of your friend's debate, and his subsequent deletion of his replies, it shows he is not capable (at this time anyway) to even submit, "Gee, I don't know. I will go read my Bible, ask other Christians, &amp;c. and get back with you." I don't know is always…</p>
<p>And that is ofttimes the response one will get in such an argument.</p>
<p>The rules of debate have built-in a sort of humility, that is, if your position is shown to be false or lacking, you must acknowledge that fact.</p>
<p>In the case of your friend's debate, and his subsequent deletion of his replies, it shows he is not capable (at this time anyway) to even submit, "Gee, I don't know. I will go read my Bible, ask other Christians, &amp;c. and get back with you." I don't know is always an acceptable answer in science, heck, it is what drives scientific enquiry, the quest for an answer to "I don't know."</p>
<p>"I don't know" is anathema to religious faith. Faith must be certain, cannot question, or it is false faith. Yet 1 Peter 3:15 is quite clear. He must be able to give reason for the joy of his faith. The deletion of his posts shows he has none (neither reason, nor apparently joy). At least for the moment his faith is shaken, and he cannot adequately answer why.</p>
<p>Faith challenged ofttimes becomes faith frustrated.</p>
<p>Frustrated enough times by enough people, where he constantly has to withdraw from conversation, and he will either a) think himself a martyr for his faith, which puts him at odds with 1 Peter 3:15, or b) eventually cause him to think about what he is saying.</p>
<p>At the very least, he will put forth more reasoned apologetics. He should thank you for bringing up these questions, as they are legitimate questions to his faith he is commanded by the NT to answer.</p>
<p>One can hope the seed of doubt is planted, and he will evaluate his position more sceptically, but I doubt it.</p>
<p>One can also hope if he is not open to alternative views to his own, he will quit bringing them up, as proselytisation works best against the defenceless.</p> Thanks again for the replies.…tag:atheistnexus.org,2012-12-23:2182797:Comment:21284702012-12-23T15:50:33.353ZAgner J Santiagohttp://atheistnexus.org/profile/AgnerJSantiago
<p>Thanks again for the replies. Some very good points and the 1 Peter 3:15 verse is especially useful. This individual ended up deleting all his replies and disappeared from the conversation, it's a miracle....;)</p>
<p>Thanks again for the replies. Some very good points and the 1 Peter 3:15 verse is especially useful. This individual ended up deleting all his replies and disappeared from the conversation, it's a miracle....;)</p> There is also this. Many diff…tag:atheistnexus.org,2012-12-23:2182797:Comment:21282172012-12-23T13:55:31.579ZJames Kzhttp://atheistnexus.org/profile/JamesKz
<p>There is also this. Many different studies have indicated that the religious are generally found on the left side of this curve. Some non-religious also are, but the vast majority are found on the right-hand side. As intelligence is supposedly God-given, why do you suppose that is? God rewards the least intelligent? If he is only looking for the intellectually-challenged for his army in Armageddon, Satan will get the best generals.</p>
<p>(On the chart, a member of Mensa is in the yellow,…</p>
<p>There is also this. Many different studies have indicated that the religious are generally found on the left side of this curve. Some non-religious also are, but the vast majority are found on the right-hand side. As intelligence is supposedly God-given, why do you suppose that is? God rewards the least intelligent? If he is only looking for the intellectually-challenged for his army in Armageddon, Satan will get the best generals.</p>
<p>(On the chart, a member of Mensa is in the yellow, 132, a member of Intertel is in the purple, 148, a member of ISPE or Triple Nine is off the chart, 164). The chart shows the distribution of people and their relative ability to solve complex problems (IQ). God is not a complex problem: he can be demonstrated to exist, or he can't. 1 Peter 3:15 puts the onus of demonstration on your friend, not you. If he cannot follow the Great Commission, he is not a Christian.</p>
<p><a target="_self" href="http://api.ning.com:80/files/tVmzSqOjQqMWhK0kpAhWoamVW39KQMCIpr6rm5srURBDajP0dVtKcnxtGnZt395DWHZ5muCltf8W3ngCCrUBrhZVKGsqCgYJ/MensaIQ.JPG"><img class="align-full" src="http://api.ning.com:80/files/tVmzSqOjQqMWhK0kpAhWoamVW39KQMCIpr6rm5srURBDajP0dVtKcnxtGnZt395DWHZ5muCltf8W3ngCCrUBrhZVKGsqCgYJ/MensaIQ.JPG" width="479"/></a></p> Tell him he is wrong about yo…tag:atheistnexus.org,2012-12-23:2182797:Comment:21283982012-12-23T13:33:21.658ZJames Kzhttp://atheistnexus.org/profile/JamesKz
<p>Tell him he is wrong about you, and judged you unfairly, in accordance with his own holy book's admonishment against judging others. Certainly you're not close-minded, you are open to any evidence he can provide his position is true.</p>
<p>Should he actually provide such evidence, then you would be required by reason to alter, abolish, modify, or amend your own position. But if there were actual evidence for his faith, then it would be science, not faith, and no belief without proof would…</p>
<p>Tell him he is wrong about you, and judged you unfairly, in accordance with his own holy book's admonishment against judging others. Certainly you're not close-minded, you are open to any evidence he can provide his position is true.</p>
<p>Should he actually provide such evidence, then you would be required by reason to alter, abolish, modify, or amend your own position. But if there were actual evidence for his faith, then it would be science, not faith, and no belief without proof would be needed.</p>
<p>Belief without proof is not a virtue, it is gullibility. I have a bridge in New York to sell to anyone who has faith in me. Low price, good water view.</p>
<p>The anecdotal story of a police officer giving a homeless man shoes is specious.</p>
<p>I am an atheist and have bought new clothes and toys for the homeless, thus that particular moral idea (charity) does not proceed from the Bible.</p>
<p>I was also homeless and no Christian ever bought me anything I am aware of, certainly did not crow about it in the press, in violation of Jesus's own commands about humility.</p>
<p>"God gives us free will" is nonsensical.</p>
<p>A) if he gave it to us, it is not free.</p>
<p>B) if the penalty for unbelief is hellfire and damnation, it is coerced, not free.</p>
<p>C) if pearly-bliss is not simply given to all, it is not free (it has a payment).</p>
<p>D) if one believes for fear of punishment, one is hedging his bet (against ten thousand other gods he is atheistic about) in favour of one, he is not being faithful.</p>
<p>E) Your mind is not closed, his is. He believes without proof one religious interpretation of Christianity over thousands, does not adequately defend his faith (only denigrates you with an ad hominem attack - you are close-minded), and only believes one religion over tens of thousands of religions without any ever proved or any reason his is correct other than his holy book (and the others have holy books too).</p>
<p>You only ask for evidence. 1 Peter 3:15 requires him to provide the reason for his belief, not you for your unbelief. He is not following the demand of the New Testament, and if he is not following the dictates of his own faith, why should you?</p> Theists always favor the God…tag:atheistnexus.org,2012-12-23:2182797:Comment:21283912012-12-23T11:49:27.194ZDyslexic's DOGhttp://atheistnexus.org/profile/DislexicDoggy
<p>Theists always favor the God is the FIRST CAUSE argument (never a theory),</p>
<p>Though if you consider Stephen Hawking's theory, where the universe started as a Black Hole, then in such a Black Hole, time does not exist, thus there is no time for a God to exist before the Black Hole erupted into the expanding universe.</p>
<p>Theists always favor the God is the FIRST CAUSE argument (never a theory),</p>
<p>Though if you consider Stephen Hawking's theory, where the universe started as a Black Hole, then in such a Black Hole, time does not exist, thus there is no time for a God to exist before the Black Hole erupted into the expanding universe.</p> I would prefer public secular…tag:atheistnexus.org,2012-12-23:2182797:Comment:21284342012-12-23T11:42:02.567ZDyslexic's DOGhttp://atheistnexus.org/profile/DislexicDoggy
<p>I would prefer public secular schools such as ours have copies of the Bible, so when I denigrate the scripture for it's utter profound and obvious stupidity, it pays to have it freely available to students to investigate and understand that I am not telling lies. Reinforcing my teaching and thus adding extra shielding against their being indoctrinated into Christianity. Yes, the Bible is a good weapon against Christianity if approached the right way. I think this is why Richard Dawkins…</p>
<p>I would prefer public secular schools such as ours have copies of the Bible, so when I denigrate the scripture for it's utter profound and obvious stupidity, it pays to have it freely available to students to investigate and understand that I am not telling lies. Reinforcing my teaching and thus adding extra shielding against their being indoctrinated into Christianity. Yes, the Bible is a good weapon against Christianity if approached the right way. I think this is why Richard Dawkins supports their introduction. The bible can become the bane of Christianity, due to the absurd stupidity it contains if exposed correctly.</p> Oh, gad ... "fairness!" Some…tag:atheistnexus.org,2012-12-13:2182797:Comment:21221562012-12-13T19:31:29.189ZLoren Millerhttp://atheistnexus.org/profile/LorenMiller
<p>Oh, gad ... "fairness!" Someone needs to tell this dip that fairness and justice are not naturally occurring concepts. Ask a mother cheetah if she thinks it's fair if her cubs get killed by hyenas while she's out finding food for them, never mind ask a resident of Darfur if it's fair that the Janjaweed raise havoc with them when all they want to do is survive.<br></br><br></br>Fairness is a concept invented and defined by MAN, to attempt to create equity in a world which doesn't care if we live or…</p>
<p>Oh, gad ... "fairness!" Someone needs to tell this dip that fairness and justice are not naturally occurring concepts. Ask a mother cheetah if she thinks it's fair if her cubs get killed by hyenas while she's out finding food for them, never mind ask a resident of Darfur if it's fair that the Janjaweed raise havoc with them when all they want to do is survive.<br/><br/>Fairness is a concept invented and defined by MAN, to attempt to create equity in a world which doesn't care if we live or die. Justice is no different, and both concepts have been arrived at by cultures which existed before the old testament was ever penned.<br/><br/>The problem is that your opponent doesn't want to hear any of this. He can't conceive of a world without his deity, and so long as that is the case, any discussion will be fruitless.</p> Wow, excellent responses. I…tag:atheistnexus.org,2012-12-13:2182797:Comment:21219132012-12-13T19:09:57.884ZAgner J Santiagohttp://atheistnexus.org/profile/AgnerJSantiago
<p>Wow, excellent responses. I appreciate the information you've provided and the time, thank you very much. </p>
<p></p>
<p>Alas he's gone of the rails and posted the below response:</p>
<div class="UFICommentContent" id=".reactRoot[24].[1][2][1]{comment419945734742994_3762643}.0.[1].0.[1].0.[0]"><span id=".reactRoot[24].[1][2][1]{comment419945734742994_3762643}.0.[1].0.[1].0.[0].[0][2]"><span id=".reactRoot[24].[1][2][1]{comment419945734742994_3762643}.0.[1].0.[1].0.[0].[0][2].0.[0]">No…</span></span></div>
<p>Wow, excellent responses. I appreciate the information you've provided and the time, thank you very much. </p>
<p></p>
<p>Alas he's gone of the rails and posted the below response:</p>
<div class="UFICommentContent" id=".reactRoot[24].[1][2][1]{comment419945734742994_3762643}.0.[1].0.[1].0.[0]"><span id=".reactRoot[24].[1][2][1]{comment419945734742994_3762643}.0.[1].0.[1].0.[0].[0][2]"><span id=".reactRoot[24].[1][2][1]{comment419945734742994_3762643}.0.[1].0.[1].0.[0].[0][2].0.[0]">No matter what I say, as we have both already stated, you have made up your mind. This is evident in your response. God gives us free will and you freely choose not to serve Him or acknowledge Him.</span><br id=".reactRoot[24].[1][2][1]{comment419945734742994_3762643}.0.[1].0.[1].0.[0].[0][2].0.[1]"/><span id=".reactRoot[24].[1][2][1]{comment419945734742994_3762643}.0.[1].0.[1].0.[0].[0][2].0.[2]">I would however like to thank you. You have caused me to have an epiphany. Since you don’t believe in God, as I understand it, you also don’t believe in an afterlife. You live, you die, and your body goes in the ground and then nothing. I have to ask, where is the moral fairness in this? What is moral about living a life in poverty and then dying to nothing? What is moral about being born into an abusive family, living in fear, and then dying to nothing? By the atheist very definition, you must be the least moral people on earth, because you don’t believe in fairness at death. Fairness at death would require an afterlife where your fate is based on what you did while you lived. If everyone dies and receives the same ending, that being nothing, your definition of fairness is flawed. It would be morally wrong for a rich man to die to nothing and a poor man to die to nothing, because they were unequal in life. And men will never be equal in life. Case in point, just two weeks ago, a police officer in NY gives a homeless man shoes, and instead of wearing them he hides them. Oh by the way, taxpayers are supplying him an apartment, but he chooses to live on the street. Neither you nor I can force someone to improve their conditions. We can only bring down those above us through force, taxes, or unlawful laws.</span><br id=".reactRoot[24].[1][2][1]{comment419945734742994_3762643}.0.[1].0.[1].0.[0].[0][2].0.[3]"/><span id=".reactRoot[24].[1][2][1]{comment419945734742994_3762643}.0.[1].0.[1].0.[0].[0][2].0.[4]">When we serve God, we have the hope of an eternal life in Heaven. But if we don’t serve Him we have the promise of eternity in Hell. These statements are true for everyone regardless of wealth, social status, and circumstances of life. But you don’t believe them, because you think men make morals. The problem is your morals and my morals and the morals of every person that reads this are different. We can’t agree on homosexuality, divorce, remarriage, and in our case the word murder. You read kill and murder as the same thing. I read kill as what the government is authorized to do, and murder as what a man does in a theater. I believe if every person ever found guilty of murder and rape was put to death, we would have a lot less murder and rape in our society. I doubt you agree. I believe in self-defense, where if I am attacked I have the right to defend myself and if necessary kill my attacker. This isn’t murder.</span><br id=".reactRoot[24].[1][2][1]{comment419945734742994_3762643}.0.[1].0.[1].0.[0].[0][2].0.[5]"/><span id=".reactRoot[24].[1][2][1]{comment419945734742994_3762643}.0.[1].0.[1].0.[0].[0][2].0.[6]">I know I ask a lot of questions, but I have another one. Do you belief in the “big bang?” If so, wouldn’t you agree it takes a tremendous amount of faith to think that by pure chance a bang happened and something was created out of nothing? That by pure chance something evolved out of nothing for a big bang to accidentally occur. I would think it actually requires more faith to believe in the “big bang” than to believe in a supreme being. Thoughts?</span></span></div>
<div class="UFICommentActions fsm fwn fcg" id=".reactRoot[24].[1][2][1]{comment419945734742994_3762643}.0.[1].0.[1].0.[1]"><span id=".reactRoot[24].[1][2][1]{comment419945734742994_3762643}.0.[1].0.[1].0.[1].[1]"> </span></div>
<p>(Needless to say I'm pretty much done wasting my time with this individual as I don't have the time or patience to correct every single error in his statements. Instead I will try to provide links for him to read if he's really interested in the topic. Feel free to post any suggested links for him. I'm thinking Matt Dillahunty's superiority of secular morality as a good starting point? ( <a href="http://blip.tv/the-atheist-experience-tv-show/matt-dillahunty-the-superiority-of-secular-morality-4192742" target="_blank">http://blip.tv/the-atheist-experience-tv-show/matt-dillahunty-the-superiority-of-secular-morality-4192742</a> )</p> Hence my long post above with…tag:atheistnexus.org,2012-12-13:2182797:Comment:21218612012-12-13T15:51:37.725ZJames Kzhttp://atheistnexus.org/profile/JamesKz
<p>Hence my long post above with references, referring to the believer's commission in the Bible to justify his faith by reason as given in 1 Peter 3:15.</p>
<p>There is no possible context that slavery, murder, genocide, &amp;c can be justified as moral. None. But the Bible itself says the believer must give account, not the unbeliever.</p>
<p>I thought that was a pretty good bit of prose for an ex-Wiccan never-Christian who has no apologetics training other than self-defence against my…</p>
<p>Hence my long post above with references, referring to the believer's commission in the Bible to justify his faith by reason as given in 1 Peter 3:15.</p>
<p>There is no possible context that slavery, murder, genocide, &amp;c can be justified as moral. None. But the Bible itself says the believer must give account, not the unbeliever.</p>
<p>I thought that was a pretty good bit of prose for an ex-Wiccan never-Christian who has no apologetics training other than self-defence against my American religious bretheren.</p>
<p>If God is omnipresent, as depicted by Christians, no secular power could ever take him out of the schools. He is always there, by their own reckoning.</p>