and a boatload of cap space that will be almost useless in place that has NEVER attracted top FA's

Cap space can be useful in other ways, such as accepting toxic contracts in trades for the price of a likely lottery pick. You're more likely to get a good draft pick with a chance to get a star that way than by trading Pierce and Garnett.

Right! Rather than another 20 years wandering in the wilderness, I think the C's are about where they were in 2001/2002 or 2002/2003 again. Good enough to make the playoffs and *maybe* the Conference Finals and with huge luck the Finals, but trending down toward mediocre.

This year and even next year the C's can be good enough, with minor tweeks, to be competitive, good enough to have a *very* long shot at the championship. Yes, it's a shot, but a very, very, long shot. Danny, and the current ownership, came in at this point and I expect they know what needs to happen next. Twain has got to be traded. Eric Williams and Tony Battie have to go. It's going to make fans angry, it's going to hurt, but it's got to be done. Assets must be acquired, developed, and traded for upgrades, developed and traded again for upgrades and for five years the C's will bounce around the 8th seed, maybe more lottery than playoffs, but eventually, the assets will be the core, or be turned into the core and we get 2008 again.

I'm optimistic for 2018. And that's if everything goes well, almost every move pans out, and that's without having a 24 year old Paul Pierce already on the squad.

and a boatload of cap space that will be almost useless in place that has NEVER attracted top FA's

Cap space can be useful in other ways, such as accepting toxic contracts in trades for the price of a likely lottery pick. You're more likely to get a good draft pick with a chance to get a star that way than by trading Pierce and Garnett.

Very good point

Yeah, that's how Cleveland landed Kyrie Irving. (How monumentally stupid of the Clippers not to insist on #1 protection on that pick.) OKC also obtained the draft pick they used on Serge Ibaka by taking on excess salary.

True to say, but why would you wait to get picks, and take on bad contracts, when apparently we're already being offered players like Bledsoe,DJordan,Barnes,Ezelie,KLeonard,TSplitter(though none of these absolutely confirmed), and or picks, with expiring contracts RIGHT NOW, when you have a team that most would concede has virtually no chance at winning a title---just so you can see KG and PP retire in green??We could start rebuilding NOW, with young players with execellent potential to ADD to RR,AB,Sully, and maybe Melo and be off to a good start TODAY, not two or three years from now!

Because all those players you mentioned are good players but not difference makers

Right! Optimally, the C's want to have the next young Paul Pierce on their team when the real rebuild starts. Is there a 24 year old Paul Pierce in your list? Nope!

None of the guys you list come close to being as good as Pierce was at 24, or at 21...or even now when he's 35. Rondo isn't even close either.

Remember, he who gets the best player wins the deal. Even at 35 Pierce is still a better player than anybody I've seen mentioned, and so is KG at 36.

I think I'm starting to get the pattern with Rondo. Every time he makes a great pass, he's simply trying to pad his assist stats. Every time he beats everybody else on the floor for a loose ball, he's simply trying to pad his rebound stats. Every time he makes a good read and steps in the passing lane to pick off a pass, he's simply trying to pad his steals stats. The only time he's not being an egotistical player is when he shoots the ball.

I think I'm starting to get the pattern with Rondo. Every time he makes a great pass, he's simply trying to pad his assist stats. Every time he beats everybody else on the floor for a loose ball, he's simply trying to pad his rebound stats. Every time he makes a good read and steps in the passing lane to pick off a pass, he's simply trying to pad his steals stats. The only time he's not being an egotistical player is when he shoots the ball.

Honestly, this is getting ridiculous.

That's when he's trying to pad his scoring.

Yes. He's doing that now.

We have on our hands an egotistical monster who only cares about stats and will try so hard to get the next rebound, steal, assist, point or win.

"The Owners hate the look of that building when the team is headed for the lottery and nobody cares"

I can't agree with that assessment. Casueway street fans are pretty consistent in their passion. The Celts and Bruins have experienced very recent years of turmoil and a strong fan base has always been there.

I think that's one of the reassuring points for management regarding the Celtics' current situation. Wyc knows that, if he chooses to, he can ride out the Peirce/KG years & fall back into rebuild mode while still maintaining a high level of support from the fans.

But as Jeff said, i think that taste of success is going to make swallowing that pill pretty difficult.

2000-02 I only attended a few games and they were playoff games and the garden was hopping. I was also like 18 years old so maybe I was just that amped up.

2005-07 the Garden was very weak. I attended a couple games a year and there were always empty seats. It was one of those places where you went to the game to see the opponent's star players [Lebron] almost as much as you went to see the celtics. I would sit in complete frustration as CP3 completely locked down whoever we threw in there at pg and it seemed that nobody around me cared at all.

2008+ the Garden has been hopping again to unbelievable levels.

In terms of attendance:

2003: 17,293 per game2004: 16,201 per game2005: 16,001 per game2006: 16,899 per game2007: 16,843 per game2008: 18,624 per game

The Celtics have been at full capacity every year since except for 2010, when they still averaged over 18,000 fans per game.

So if you notice the range of years I mentioned, there is a difference of 2000 fans per game. That's pretty significant. But my point was actually more in regards to the atmosphere than # of butts in the seats. During 2005-07, when I went to a couple games per year, the atmosphere was DEAD in the garden compared to now. We'd get owned and people wouldn't even notice, nevermind care. Now, we do have plenty of people who just go to go, but at least you still hear many grumbles from behind you if we aren't playing well.

Rondo is not a stat padder, he is a guy who loves to give his teammates the ball.

That is it.

Rondo loves to pass.

He loves it to a fault. Rondo's unselfishness is akin to KG.

Sometime Rondo has to score even if he don't like it.

The offense is better when the ball's more free-flowing, though. Rondo can be the facilitator, but he doesn't always need to be the guy who makes the pass that directly leads to the basket. At times, it's almost like he morphs into the uber-Stephan Marbury, pounding the ball like crazy and there's really only one pass in the whole possession. The team's offense would have looked better if Rondo was getting more "hockey assists."

Rondo is not a stat padder, he is a guy who loves to give his teammates the ball.

That is it.

Rondo loves to pass.

He loves it to a fault. Rondo's unselfishness is akin to KG.

Sometime Rondo has to score even if he don't like it.

The offense is better when the ball's more free-flowing, though. Rondo can be the facilitator, but he doesn't always need to be the guy who makes the pass that directly leads to the basket. At times, it's almost like he morphs into the uber-Stephan Marbury, pounding the ball like crazy and there's really only one pass in the whole possession. The team's offense would have looked better if Rondo was getting more "hockey assists."

Rondo gets plenty of "hockey assists". I've seen tons of plays where we get a mismatch on offense (frequently created by Rondo) where he'll swing the ball around to someone who has a better angle to make the entry pass.

So if you notice the range of years I mentioned, there is a difference of 2000 fans per game. That's pretty significant. But my point was actually more in regards to the atmosphere than # of butts in the seats. During 2005-07, when I went to a couple games per year, the atmosphere was DEAD in the garden compared to now. We'd get owned and people wouldn't even notice, nevermind care. Now, we do have plenty of people who just go to go, but at least you still hear many grumbles from behind you if we aren't playing well.

Buddy of mine was telling me how when he used to work in Boston, the company he was with couldn't even GIVE away their tickets to people. This was back at the end of the Gaston era, I believe. "Hey kid, you want some free Celtics tickets?"... "Uh, no thanks. I need to do some laundry tonight."

Especially given the competition with the Sox, the Pats, and with the Bruins being so good now, I don't blame nmanagement for trying to stay relevant in people's minds.

Rondo is not a stat padder, he is a guy who loves to give his teammates the ball.

That is it.

Rondo loves to pass.

He loves it to a fault. Rondo's unselfishness is akin to KG.

Sometime Rondo has to score even if he don't like it.

The offense is better when the ball's more free-flowing, though. Rondo can be the facilitator, but he doesn't always need to be the guy who makes the pass that directly leads to the basket. At times, it's almost like he morphs into the uber-Stephan Marbury, pounding the ball like crazy and there's really only one pass in the whole possession. The team's offense would have looked better if Rondo was getting more "hockey assists."

Rondo gets plenty of "hockey assists". I've seen tons of plays where we get a mismatch on offense (frequently created by Rondo) where he'll swing the ball around to someone who has a better angle to make the entry pass.

I don't have any stats to back this up, but it seems like there was a lot less of this this season. "Eye test" is telling me that there's less ball movement.

Rondo is not a stat padder, he is a guy who loves to give his teammates the ball.

That is it.

Rondo loves to pass.

He loves it to a fault. Rondo's unselfishness is akin to KG.

Sometime Rondo has to score even if he don't like it.

The offense is better when the ball's more free-flowing, though. Rondo can be the facilitator, but he doesn't always need to be the guy who makes the pass that directly leads to the basket. At times, it's almost like he morphs into the uber-Stephan Marbury, pounding the ball like crazy and there's really only one pass in the whole possession. The team's offense would have looked better if Rondo was getting more "hockey assists."

Rondo gets plenty of "hockey assists". I've seen tons of plays where we get a mismatch on offense (frequently created by Rondo) where he'll swing the ball around to someone who has a better angle to make the entry pass.

I don't have any stats to back this up, but it seems like there was a lot less of this this season. "Eye test" is telling me that there's less ball movement.

He's been dribbling and ballhandling more, as the C's have cut back on how much Pierce handled.

Rondo is not a stat padder, he is a guy who loves to give his teammates the ball.

That is it.

Rondo loves to pass.

He loves it to a fault. Rondo's unselfishness is akin to KG.

Sometime Rondo has to score even if he don't like it.

The offense is better when the ball's more free-flowing, though. Rondo can be the facilitator, but he doesn't always need to be the guy who makes the pass that directly leads to the basket. At times, it's almost like he morphs into the uber-Stephan Marbury, pounding the ball like crazy and there's really only one pass in the whole possession. The team's offense would have looked better if Rondo was getting more "hockey assists."

Rondo gets plenty of "hockey assists". I've seen tons of plays where we get a mismatch on offense (frequently created by Rondo) where he'll swing the ball around to someone who has a better angle to make the entry pass.

I don't have any stats to back this up, but it seems like there was a lot less of this this season. "Eye test" is telling me that there's less ball movement.

He's been dribbling and ballhandling more, as the C's have cut back on how much Pierce handled.

I think they've also cut back on the number of plays with PP that start inside the foul line for a mismatch. Paul used to go down low a lot of the time when he had a pg on him, now he seems to prefer to start his move from the three point line.