That's your children, though. What if they weren't your children? What if they were people you didn't know?

Would you say that your love fpr these people is conditional on them being your children?

first if you believe in creation it is not unreasonable to accept that the creators are like our parents and we are their children which makes my love for some one I do not know such as the people I have met here or someone I have not met based on them being like my brothers and sisters. Not in a weird incest way but in a spiritual way we are all connected to each other. That incest thing is another reason I can't buy in to the Genesis version of creation, that is why I suspect there are many different gods and when they created humans several at a time with no relationship of blood line, just the relationship of being created together. that could be why we have different blood types so the creators could tell us apart. Who knows? It is possible.

Logged

Hope this day finds you doing well... prepare yourself so you can be a rainbow in somebody else's cloud. Somebody who may not look like you. May not call God the same name you call God - if they call God at all. I may not dance your dances or speak your language. But be a blessing to somebody. Maya

that's an awesome question, my thoughts keep leaning towards energy. I don't see us being able to understand unless it is revealed after death or we invent a time machine, seriously. And even if you invent the time machine could our physical bodies endure the trip. Doubtfully. I really think energy has something to do with it some how. I have asked myself that same question and i have to admit it is a tough one. One thing I'm sure of is that a lot will be learned as we try to answer it. there has to always been something out there because you can't get anything from nothing, but where did that come from, couldn't have come from nothing, thinking about it I am going to say that is another good reason to believe in something, how else will we ever know other than life after death on a higher realm where we are free from the restraints of the human body?

So, in short, you have no clue about most of the stuff you're spouting.

Logged

The truth is absolute. Life forms are specks of specks (...) of specks of dust in the universe.Why settle for normal, when you can be so much more? Why settle for something, when you can have everything?We choose our own gods.

Do yourself a favor, and be very specific for everyone, not just for screwtape. Lots of theists arrive here and speak in generalities, but as the discussion progresses, more details emerge that clarify the specific version of belief any particular theist subscribes to. Since we consistently uncover a great deal of variation in beliefs among theists (even those that do follow a particular tradition), the best way to ensure that everyone understands exactly what is or isn't part of any person's particular dogma, specifics are a necessity.

No need to feel put on the spot, we simply need to understand your personal specific beliefs in order to discuss them. Doubly so for a theist who arrives claiming no denomination. This will help avoid any mistaken assumptions on either side of the discussion. You already made an error regarding charity (and accepted your correction with grace, thank you); it goes both ways. Feel free to ask questions of us as well - you may be surprised as how much we vary on many topics. You may also be surprised by how much we have in common, with you.

So who created your god? If complexity is evidence of design, then your god must've been designed as well. And the god who created it. And the god who created the god who created it. And so on ad infinitum.

that's an awesome question, my thoughts keep leaning towards energy. I don't see us being able to understand unless it is revealed after death or we invent a time machine, seriously. And even if you invent the time machine could our physical bodies endure the trip. Doubtfully. I really think energy has something to do with it some how. I have asked myself that same question and i have to admit it is a tough one. One thing I'm sure of is that a lot will be learned as we try to answer it. there has to always been something out there because you can't get anything from nothing, but where did that come from, couldn't have come from nothing, thinking about it I am going to say that is another good reason to believe in something, how else will we ever know other than life after death on a higher realm where we are free from the restraints of the human body?

You might find the following talk interesting but it does last a hour.

Logged

No testimony is sufficient to establish a miracle, unless the testimony be of such that its falshood would be more miraculous than the facts it endeavours to establish. (David Hume)

first if you believe in creation it is not unreasonable to accept that the creators are like our parents and we are their children which makes my love for some one I do not know such as the people I have met here or someone I have not met based on them being like my brothers and sisters. Not in a weird incest way but in a spiritual way we are all connected to each other. That incest thing is another reason I can't buy in to the Genesis version of creation, that is why I suspect there are many different gods and when they created humans several at a time with no relationship of blood line, just the relationship of being created together. that could be why we have different blood types so the creators could tell us apart. Who knows? It is possible.

So what I can glean from all that is that despite the fact that you may hold a sort of brotherly love for all of humanity, the specific kind of love you have for your children is indeed conditional on the fact that they are your children. You don't love other random people in the same way that you love your children.

Junebug, I find the above-quoted statement of yours to be offensive in the extreme. Yes, there are atheists who are out there in the trenches, feeding the hungry and clothing the naked.

sorry astraja, 12 hit a nerve, I don't believe God is responsible for hunger or poor. He gave us every thing we need on this planet, mankind is responsible for not sharing it. So if poverty angers you or anything mankind does to one another it is not God you should be angry with.

i'm quoting!!! yes!

NO JB I was asking YOU why he is there when YOU need him but he ignores the starving child who pleads with him for life giving food,and is ignored by you god,until the child dies.

I asked YOU what makes you so special that he is there at the drop of a hat when you need him,,,,HELL it does not even have to be a starving child,it could be a rape victim pleading for gods help if you wish,or the alter boy being buggered by his Priest. Sorry to read about your past,that is truly tragic.

what exactly is the difference where God sees fit to help you but ignores other people pleading for his help?

« Last Edit: February 17, 2013, 10:35:15 PM by 12 Monkeys »

Logged

There's no right there's no wrong,there's just popular opinion (Brad Pitt as Jeffery Goines in 12 monkeys)

all around you, look under a microscope at how complex life is, it may not be evidence but it is certainly a clue that it took intelligence to create life on earth, some freak explosion could not have intelligence. Explosion + intelligence makes sense.

Your God was just a minor God in a pantheon of gods (there were many gods) the Story has evolved over the centuries to the single "god" you now see.

Logged

There's no right there's no wrong,there's just popular opinion (Brad Pitt as Jeffery Goines in 12 monkeys)

Unlike the xians doctrine God does love us no matter what we do. Whether we are gay, black, whores, or whore mongers the love is there.Whether your atheist, pentacostal, baptist, buddhist, pagean, it just don't matter,

Indeed, if one accepts the parable of the prodigal son, then your god loves all those people MORE than he loves you. How do you feel about that?

That was screwtape's point - that a god that loves everyone unconditionally is deeply disturbing. It means exactly what I've said here - that he loves the guys who raped you when you were a child just as much as he loves their victim.

it is our place to feed people if they're starving i don't see many atheist out there handing out food to the poor. i wander why that is. there are 100's of thousands of people being fed because of God's love. the good in the world I mentioned earlier.

Please theists, for the love of......bacon, stop telling us about how freaking great you think religious charity is, and how atheists don't do anything charitable, when just ONE unbeliever can make more of a difference than BILLIONS of theists.

sorry i shouldn't have been offensive, i should've checked the facts before shootin off my mouth.

i was replying to 12 monkeys comment about starving people. And just wanted 12 to know there were people out there feeding the hungry because they believe through their faith they should and that is how God's love is manifested on earth through us.

And herein lies the problem. You didn't bother to check on whether or not atheists can be charitable. You just went ahead and made a post about how religious people hand out food to starving people, and that since you don't see this happening, it must not happen. The apparent implication is that people can only help the starving if they are theists. It is also implied that people can only help the starving if they are doing it because of fear of punishment or hope of reward. If God's love is manifested in people through things that can be done without divine assistance, it really doesn't say much for the power of God's love. In fact it seems to me to diminish God's love. Either way, you are left having to explain, again, why it is that one non-believer can make more of a real difference than billions of believers. Maybe religious people would be incapable of doing these things without religion, but that only seems to indicate that those religious people are selfish and immoral.

If people handing out picnic baskets because God wants them to is a good thing, then someone like, say, Norman Borlaug, whose secular and scientific endeavors have prevented an estimated one BILLION people from starving to death, must be a far better example. It really leads me to wonder why religious people bother talking about charity, since, as you freely admitted, they don't even KNOW what they are talking about. Note that it would be entirely possible for religion to do things like Mr. Gates and Mr. Borlaug have done, but they DON'T. In spite of the inestimable wealth of the Catholic Church, they are not making nearly as much of a difference in the real world. Sure, tossing a 20 into the collection basket can make the believer FEEL like they are doing something, but try to get a straight answer out of a Catholic official as to how much of the church's congregant generated income actually goes to doing the kinds of things Jesus said to do, as opposed to being used to build churches, convents, and spread propaganda. Giving ten percent of one's income is the most common practice among Christians, yet Bill Gates, a non believer, has pledged to give 95% of his wealth to charity. He's not being commanded by some holy book or a priest to do this, he has done it on his own. Compare that to Christians who think that if they don't give 10% they will face judgement for it, and tell me who is setting the better example.

I realize that you are sorry for this error, but realize yourself that it is due to your ignorance on the subject. This is a common reason for religious people making such errors. Ignorance is strength for the religious, just like it is in 1984.

So, in short, you have no clue about most of the stuff you're spouting.

I have a clue what I'm talking about sorry if you can't keep up. Maybe you should try going over it again without your attitude and then maybe you will understand. You seem very heartless towards some one who genuinely cares whether you live or die, happy or sad, perhaps your content would be better placed on some one else. You will never convince me that we are better off without God real or not as long as you set this kind of example for the atheist.

Logged

Hope this day finds you doing well... prepare yourself so you can be a rainbow in somebody else's cloud. Somebody who may not look like you. May not call God the same name you call God - if they call God at all. I may not dance your dances or speak your language. But be a blessing to somebody. Maya

Do yourself a favor, and be very specific for everyone, not just for screwtape. Lots of theists arrive here and speak in generalities, but as the discussion progresses, more details emerge that clarify the specific version of belief any particular theist subscribes to. Since we consistently uncover a great deal of variation in beliefs among theists (even those that do follow a particular tradition), the best way to ensure that everyone understands exactly what is or isn't part of any person's particular dogma, specifics are a necessity.

No need to feel put on the spot, we simply need to understand your personal specific beliefs in order to discuss them. Doubly so for a theist who arrives claiming no denomination. This will help avoid any mistaken assumptions on either side of the discussion. You already made an error regarding charity (and accepted your correction with grace, thank you); it goes both ways. Feel free to ask questions of us as well - you may be surprised as how much we vary on many topics. You may also be surprised by how much we have in common, with you.

Thank you for you kindness

Logged

Hope this day finds you doing well... prepare yourself so you can be a rainbow in somebody else's cloud. Somebody who may not look like you. May not call God the same name you call God - if they call God at all. I may not dance your dances or speak your language. But be a blessing to somebody. Maya

You will never convince me that we are better off without God real or not as long as you set this kind of example for the atheist.

That's because you don't understand how happy I am without religion.

Logged

The truth is absolute. Life forms are specks of specks (...) of specks of dust in the universe.Why settle for normal, when you can be so much more? Why settle for something, when you can have everything?We choose our own gods.

Do I need to use a different font? I have said I am not religious. I think religion has the world twisted. I am not a theist, I prefer to not be put in a box. I am not stupid, there is a part of me that wanders, could I be wrong, I have my doubts, but more so I have to trust my on mind and my heart to where it leads me. We have all had different experiences in life that has brought us to where we are today. I have been as specific as I can as far as my experience goes. I had hard times and I do believe a spiritual force helped me thru it, maybe we weren't created by that force maybe we were, I'm thinking the jury is still out on that one, but there is a spiritual force in this world. There have been far to many instances to just disregard. I chose to respect that spiritual energy on the planet and explore it.

You will never find the evidence your seeking unless you open your mind.

Hope this day finds you doing well... prepare yourself so you can be a rainbow in somebody else's cloud. Somebody who may not look like you. May not call God the same name you call God - if they call God at all. I may not dance your dances or speak your language. But be a blessing to somebody. Maya

So what I can glean from all that is that despite the fact that you may hold a sort of brotherly love for all of humanity, the specific kind of love you have for your children is indeed conditional on the fact that they are your children. You don't love other random people in the same way that you love your children.

hey Az,

I am not God, thank goodness you'd all be in trouble!!! lol[/font]

Logged

Hope this day finds you doing well... prepare yourself so you can be a rainbow in somebody else's cloud. Somebody who may not look like you. May not call God the same name you call God - if they call God at all. I may not dance your dances or speak your language. But be a blessing to somebody. Maya

You might find the following talk interesting but it does last a hour.

sorry wheels i only have 4G's.

Logged

Hope this day finds you doing well... prepare yourself so you can be a rainbow in somebody else's cloud. Somebody who may not look like you. May not call God the same name you call God - if they call God at all. I may not dance your dances or speak your language. But be a blessing to somebody. Maya

NO JB I was asking YOU why he is there when YOU need him but he ignores the starving child who pleads with him for life giving food,and is ignored by you god,until the child dies.

I asked YOU what makes you so special that he is there at the drop of a hat when you need him,,,,HELL it does not even have to be a starving child,it could be a rape victim pleading for gods help if you wish,or the alter boy being buggered by his Priest. Sorry to read about your past,that is truly tragic.

what exactly is the difference where God sees fit to help you but ignores other people pleading for his help?

yea I know the world could use a super hero indeed.

Logged

Hope this day finds you doing well... prepare yourself so you can be a rainbow in somebody else's cloud. Somebody who may not look like you. May not call God the same name you call God - if they call God at all. I may not dance your dances or speak your language. But be a blessing to somebody. Maya

Well, then I guess I just got lucky that they were right. What I don't think you understand is that God is a spirit, and those that worship Him worship in spirit and in truth. Not everything taught me had to be perfect, because men and their understanding is imperfect, but where men's wisdom and understanding may have fallen short, the Spirit of God takes over and supplements the understanding of the devout. There is a lot of bad information to sift through, but the loving God can guide, and He is willing if you are. My parent's weren't perfect but there love for God and me is a source of my good result.

How do you know you got lucky? How are you separating fact from fiction? This is exactly what I was speaking of earlier Wayne. Every religion claims "My deity is the right one (i.e. - I got lucky) and everyone else is wrong." I'll ask you again Wayne: How is this any different from SUPERSTITION?? You are being uncritical and gullible (and that's all faith really is anyway).

Second, quoting the bible ("God is a spirit...") doesn't prove there is such a thing. What the heck is a "spirit"? Please demonstrate. Quoting the bible is just confirming what I said earlier - namely that you are holding to an ASSUMPTION you accepted uncritically and now want to defend. Can you not see how credulous you are being? Every religious person does this. It fails for both of you.

Whether or not men are "perfect" (whatever that means) has absolutely nothing to do with whether you can demonstrate your deity. You are continually trying to pull the ye old "hide my God from critical thinking" trick. In other words, when you don't have any answers, and can neither give logically valid reasons (as you would do in everyday life) or give demonstrable evidence you just quote the bible - in some round about way (i.e. - "God is a spirit...", "I had an experience with Jesus...", "The spirit leads me..." etc).

You are trying to use Circular Reasoning Wayne. And using circular reasoning is NOT validating your beliefs in Yahweh (no matter how badly you want it to).

Some things are subjective, but my spiritual faith in God has been a good result.

You just dodged my questions Wayne. Having beliefs based on irrational arguments, credulity, gullibility, and uncritical examination are good things?? No, they are not. What you should be doing is demonstrating a little bit more critical thinking (i.e. - showing that you actually care if your beliefs are true) while leaving the confirmation bias behind.

My testimony is proof to me, and an offer to you, that you might also believe, without having to 'see' proof.

Your "testimony" is not proof. This statement demonstrates (clearly) that you do not understand the nature of proof or evidence. Must it be repeated? Evidence is DEMONSTRABLE to others. There is no such thing as "proof to me". If you had some experience that you can't repeat or demonstrate to others (as the bible clearly says you should be able to do) then you don't have proof! All you have is your say so - but that isn't proof. So when you came here stating that you could validate your beliefs in Yahweh you should have been honest by admitting that you can't do it - instead of playing these "I had X experience...and it's proof" circus games.

You haven't shown proof Wayne. All you've given is hear-say and skewed interpretation.

The only thing that keeps me from self deception is my reliance that the Holy Spirit would answer my prayer and intervene in those cases. I certainly, on my own and fully capable of being self deceived. I can only pray not to be.

Just like the other religions, your claim to have "faith in the Holy Spirit" is unreliable (b/c it cannot produce consistent demonstrable positive results). It is also extremely dishonest because 1) you haven't demonstrated that there is such a thing as "Holy Spirit" and 2) because (at every turn) you have demonstrated an immediate willingness to do anything and everything you can to protect your precious assumptions from critical analyses (by you or others). Therefore, you cannot honestly say that you are relying on any actual "spirit" (whatever that means). What is quite clear is that you have assumed the bible in advance (i.e. - you have a big fat presupposition that you are unwilling to analyze) and you are willing to defend it at all costs (even the cost of good reasoning).

"We all" includes YOU Wayne. So why not practice what you preach and actually use some critical thinking w/out confirmation bias? Are you open to the possibility that your current interpretations of your experiences could in fact be in error due to the presuppositions you bought into in your youth?

I'm not sure God is going to allow me to make that claim. I have said many times that I have absolute confidence and certainty about the power, omniscience and omnipresence of God, and very little confidence in my ability to interpret it all. My confidence is in Him, not in me. I think He agrees with me on that assessment.

But now you've just contradicted yourself (while, once again, assuming the bible - Proverbs 3:5-6 passage). This is (again) Circular Reasoning, Wayne. You can't assume your bible is the word of God. You need to DEMONSTRATE how you know it is - and practice good critical thinking in the process (i.e. - the same kind of critical thinking you use when a salesman comes to your door making extraordinary claims). So far, you haven't done that. But that is what is needed (and what we are waiting for you to do).

I like to think that I am open minded to God's leading and sceptical of following men. I care that my beliefs are true, but my confidence is in not in my beliefs, but in my maker. If I find out that the fourth day of creation lasted a millennium, I won't be broken hearted because I'm never afraid of the truth, (or don't want to be.)

Wayne, like it or not, you "follow men" (including yourself) every-single-day. If you didn't, it is likely that you would be dead. But again, just because you claim to be "following God's leading" doesn't mean that you are. Saying it is so, doesn't make it so. Lots of religions say they are following their God's calling. So what. Just because you BELIEVE (have faith) that a God is "guiding" you doesn't mean your belief is in anything actually real. Lots of people are wrong (dead wrong) about things like this all the time. Indeed, you must admit this is true (in regard to every other religion). Except, for some strange reason (a reason based in assumption) you decided to just believe the one religion your parents taught you.

Since you haven't given any good reasons (to us or yourself) to think that a supernatural deity named Yahweh is actually/truly "guiding" you, you yourself should be skeptical of this stuff (namely because your personal subjective experiences are highly suspect of confirmation bias, misinterpretation, and error - just like the claims of your religious competitors around the world). Your "confidence" is being called into question here (which is why we have asked you to validate your beliefs - instead of producing mere CLAIMS or hear-say).

Finally, the funniest part about this (which it seems you are incapable of seeing) is that your "beliefs" are indistinguishable from the object of those beliefs (i.e. - a child's belief in Santa Claus and the 'object' of Santa Claus). You keep saying that you aren't trusting "man's wisdom". Yet you haven't demonstrated that there is ANY-OTHER-WISDOM besides "man's". You just keep saying it (i.e. - re-quoting parts of the bible over and over in paraphrase). But that doesn't prove your claim to "God's wisdom". All it proves is that you are capable of regurgitating the assumption you made. Again, saying it is so doesn't make it so (no matter how many times you repeat it).

If you are really not afraid of the truth, then why not start using the only critically capable brain you have to access it?

I'm going to allow you to define my testimony as anecdotes if it suits you. In fact, with the moderators permission I'm going to publish here kind of a comprehensive Wittenburg door anecdote challenge to be nailed to the galley door of the Church of Atheists that congregates on the Pirate Ship WWGHA.

The anecdotes are not self generated so your diminishing them and saying they are not somehow worthy of peoples time does nothing to insult me. It's not as though I went to school, misunderstood the lessons, turned in my homework and got an F. I would deserve the insult, and the humiliation of failure, and even the charge that my homework was not worthy of discussion. But it's not my homework and my intellect, and my personall worthiness were talking about here, we are talking about evidence, real evidence, Lots or anecdotal evidence of the intervention of an intelligent being, one so intelligent as to be (at least) 23 years patient and forknowing, and to be demonstrably either capable of causing an earthquake, or at least all knowing enough to pinpoint its eruption to the second. Pass that off as not worthy of discussion if you like, All I can do is report.

Wayne, this should have been "All I can do is repeat" because you haven't provided any reliable method for determining fact from fiction. All you keep doing is posting YOUR INTERPRETATION of said (or hear-say) facts and acting as if that's going to cut it. Well, it doesn't (and rightly so). Your practice of credulity and confirmation bias is not a reliable tool for determining what is actually true and what is actually false. If any other religious person did what you are trying to do, you would reject it. Can you not see this hypocrisy? Apparently not...

Btw, you keep making references to "Church of Atheists" or "atheist pov", as if atheism is some kind of worldview. IT IS NOT! As I said before (which you apparently did not read), atheism is a "No" answer to a single question. "Do you have a belief in a God?" THAT-IS-ALL. Atheism says nothing else about anything else. Materialism/naturalism are COMPLETELY DIFFERENT from atheism. Please get this straight. There are LOTS of people who don't believe in any God (i.e. - atheists) who believe lots of different things about the universe/world. Please try to understand that atheism is not a way of looking at the world (like materialism is). Atheism is simply the lack of a belief in any gods. That's it, nothing more. So to say "Church of Atheists" is absurd. Are you part of the "Church of A-Santa-Clausists"??

Do I need to use a different font? I have said I am not religious. I think religion has the world twisted. I am not a theist...

By the standard definition of the word, if you believe in a god -- Any god -- Yes, you are a theist.

And no matter how fervently you believe yourself to be "not religious," your beliefs become a religion when you attempt to transmit them to another human being. You may have no specific prayers or liturgy or rites or hymns, but you have definitely been advocating on behalf of the god you believe in.

Quote

You will never find the evidence your seeking unless you open your mind.

How do you know that our minds aren't open? Disagreement does not equal a closed mind.

How do you know you got lucky? How are you separating fact from fiction? This is exactly what I was speaking of earlier Wayne. Every religion claims "My deity is the right one (i.e. - I got lucky) and everyone else is wrong." I'll ask you again Wayne: How is this any different from SUPERSTITION?? You are being uncritical and gullible (and that's all faith really is anyway).

Are you a pantheist that just wants to make sure the God of the Bible is dismissed? The God that has performed the works described in my episodes is the God of the Bible. I cannot dismiss what he has done nor can I attribute those works to another non biblical God. You continue to repeat that my parents lied to me and that I'm gullible. It is your recurring theme, you cannot stop asking it because you8 will never accept anything but that which satisfies you predetermined result. What you need to admit to yourself median is that for all your effort, the one thing you are not allowing into your reasoning is that there is one true God that performs the kinds of works that I have described. You are the one locked in an endless loop, not me. My God is capable of proving himself to me and all you can say is that my parents lied to me and that is the only place I could be getting my information. I don't just mine it form my past indoctrination, I have a personal experience that completely reinforces it

You need to read four or five of the accounts of intervention by god and ask me questions with regard to those examples of proof I have because all your questioning along the same lines will not persuade me that the supernatural events I report didn't occur. There is apossibility that you have read none of them and are only talking to me from what you have read here, If that's the case, we are both wasting time. Please tell me what of mine you have read so I can determine whether to continue this discussion with you.

Second, quoting the bible ("God is a spirit...") doesn't prove there is such a thing. What the heck is a "spirit"? Please demonstrate. Quoting the bible is just confirming what I said earlier - namely that you are holding to an ASSUMPTION you accepted uncritically and now want to defend. Can you not see how credulous you are being? Every religious person does this. It fails for both of you.

I know what you are thinking when you think I'm being credulous for believing there is a spirit. You are flat out wrong, but I don't fault you. I'll give you an example. The Spirit prompted me to do an unusual thing. While getting ready to leave my house for church I stopped at the door and my attention fixed upon a rock my daughter picked up on a hike. I put it in my sport jacket side pocket, and I had no idea why. During the first meeting at church someone tapped me on the shoulder and asked if I wouldn't mind sitting in for an absent teacher and team teach a class. I had never been asked to do anything like it and I agreed. The other teachaer had prepared the lesson but in the middle of the lesson came to a part that required a rock, and confess that he had failed to bring one. I took the rock out of my pocket and tossed to him and I knew that the spirit prompted me to pick the rock up because the spirit knew the lesson plan and I didn't. I didn't even know I'd be in the class. I was amazed when that happened, but not surprised because I had many encouters of the Spirit leading and that was just another example. So, you may want to abstain from accusing me of simply being credulous. It may apply to people worshipping false gods, it does in no way apply to those worshipping the God of the Bible in Spirit and in truth.

I'd ask you to explain how I knew to take a rock without the supernatural guidance, but I'm afraid that you will parrot everyone else here and say I have super intuition, or I just got lucky, or that statistics allowed it, but I'm hoping you don't because it's embarrassing to see people make fools of themselves. There is one very simple explanation. God was blessing me and that teacher with proof of his favor and guidance. Please don't try to explain it away.... It's just how it is. And don't tell me I can't prove to you that I took the rock to church, or that I imagined it, or I forgot the account. It's gettin tiring. Oh, and by the way I'm totally qualified to report exactly what happened to me, I don't need a theology degree or a doctorate in statistics, or psychology, or critical thinking. Read the stories and you will know that God intervenes.

You just dodged my questions Wayne. Having beliefs based on irrational arguments, credulity, gullibility, and uncritical examination are good things?? No, they are not. What you should be doing is demonstrating a little bit more critical thinking (i.e. - showing that you actually care if your beliefs are true) while leaving the confirmation bias behind.

You say I have beliefs, I say they aren't just imaginations that have no basis in fact and experience, what I know about God is supported by solid examples of intervention so they are anything but the result of being irrational arguments, credulity, gullibility, and uncritical examination. You may as well give up on those charges, they may work in other cases they are useless in discussing my case.

I wouldn't bother if I was you. This is not a court of law, you must weigh, in my case whether my testimony is accurate, and make your decision. You either call me a liar, or you accept the testimony.

Your demand for the kind of evidence that God is denying you is not proof that my testimony is false, it's that an all powerful God can keep anything he wants from you, he doesn't care how much you demand it.

Evidence is DEMONSTRABLE to others. There is no such thing as "proof to me".

You are so wrong! You must know it. God has proved Himself to me, it is ridiculous for you to declare that he hasn't proven himself to me just because it's not proof to you. That is arrogant. Now in time, as you would get to know me and as others have observed that are close to me, you would begin to see that I have exceptionally frequent demonstrations of supernatural occurrences, like that rock in the pocket thing, and you would after a while realise that something abnormal to nature is occurring and too frequently. I know it must be hard to grasp. I can tell you one thing, I personally have nothing to do with it. I have never called up a incident at will, they just happen to me. It's true. You will never be able to crack this case with your critical thinking, it is meant to confound.

If you are really not afraid of the truth, then why not start using the only critically capable brain you have to access it?

You'd like to think that I'm not but you are the one blinded by confirmation bias. I'm going to predict that you are going to dismiss the guidance I got to take the rock to church as confirmation bias and you will be demonstrating confirmation bias of your own that has blinded you from the reality you have decided never to face, and that is that there is a true God and he is the one men describe in the Bible.

Thanks for your comments.

« Last Edit: February 19, 2013, 02:01:33 AM by WayneHarropson »

Logged

The reason one writes isn't the fact he wants to say something. He writes because he has something to say. F. Scott Fitzgerald I write because I've been given something to say.*** SEARCH FOR PROOF OF PSYCHOSIS HERE***> http://tinyurl.com/WaynesEpisodesHave Wayne Committed, Win a Prize! (V

a personal relationship with my Creator. ..... when i need Him He is there, not always with the answers I want, but with the answers I need. There has been so many times He was the only One that I had

which mirrors the personal relationship that Christians speak of. You capitalise the G in god, you capitalise the personal pronouns, which again are things very specific to the Christian god, and then went on to say (my bold)

God as I know Him is the Creator of this solar system, earth, and mankind. He lives every where in everything, and when I need Him He is there. God loves us all no matter what ..... i searched God out to find out if my eternal life was condemned and God revealed to me that it wasn't through years of study and searching for truth.

Again, very specific, very personal, very reminiscent of the Christian god. And perhaps the clearest reference:

I am not religious......I do believe a spiritual force helped me thru it, maybe we weren't created by that force maybe we were, I'm thinking the jury is still out on that one, but there is a spiritual force in this world.

...and go from a very specific and personal god-with-a-capital-G to a "spiritual force" - are you surprised that we not only don't understand what you believe, but are left wondering whether you yourself know what it is you believe? Can you define "spiritual force", for example?

Its very rare that we have two believers come to this forum who agree on exactly what their god is - and yet they are all invaribly convinced that their experiences are conclusive proof that THEIR god exists. To look just within this thread, there is you and there is Wayne. You have both had experiences. You are both sure that those experienced led you to knowledge of "god". But you both have very, very different ideas of who and what that "god" actually is, and it is this that makes it so difficult for us.

Difficult for us on the practical level, because (without extensive questioning) we have no idea of what the latest believer actually believes about their chosen god. And difficult on the philosophic level because the important step - the detailed discussion of the causality between experience and conclusion - there is nothing to prove that their conclusions are correct: nothing that makes it possible to say "Junebug experienced this, so therefore her explanation of the reasons behind the experiences is correct" in preference to Wayne, or Afadly, or Dominic, or Shin Kairi.

That's why you will experience resistance to any half-explained ideas you put forward: we've heard the same arguments time and time again, but ALWAYS with a different conclusion. Which is why statements like this....

You will never find the evidence your seeking unless you open your mind

....are singularly unhelpful. Members who were around at the time will remember Afadly, and his carefully constructed case for Allah being the one true god. "He said it before YOU did", is the point I'm making, so if I'd had that open mind I'd now be specifically a Muslim, and be vigorously opposing your blasphemous assertions that everyone goes to heaven.

If you can grok why I'm not a Muslim, you'll be able to understand why I'm not merrily accepting everything you say with that "open mind".

do we not punish our children when they misbehave, but continue to love them. I have a son and even if he committed the most horrible crime I would certainly be very disgusted and hurt by what he done but I would still love him and try to help him learn from his terrible mistake.

So your god is not a just god and there cannot be such a thing as sin. If the mass murder of 30 million people by starvation is not unforgiveable, nothing is. I'm sure I would want nothing to do with your god if it existed. And the irony is, it would love me anyway.

for such an intelligent person I can't believe that was too vague for you. let me be more specific.

Thank you for being specific. I am an intelligent person. The problem is I cannot read minds very well. I have an especially difficult time with mushy words that are ambiguous which people use for different meanings depending which way the conversation is blowing. Spiritual is one such word. Faith is another. So when people say things like "spiritual journey" it can mean a lot of things. I just want to make sure I understand exactly what you mean.

I would like to add, I'd appreciate if you didn't get your panties in a twist because I ask questions. Most of the time I ask in order to not misunderstand you. You should take that as a sign of respect and a willingness to understand you correctly.

Pretty hard to be convinced of this, considering that you made an unsupported assertion regarding the charitable efforts of theists vs atheists. I pretty much tore that notion to shreds. After I did, you said

Quote from: junebug72

i should've checked the facts before shootin off my mouth.

If you don't check your facts before shooting off your mouth, then by your own admission and by definition, you do not know what you are talking about. Now this was only a part of your arguments thus far, but you have also asserted that you have a close personal relationship with capital G God, that you have been helped by the Holy Spirit, and are here trying to convince us that there is a God, and of course it's YOUR God. Then you say that you are not a theist or religious at all. I'd try to keep up, but all of this running in circles is making me dizzy. A person simply can not assert that they have a personal relationship with God and that they are also not a theist.

Quote

Maybe you should try going over it again without your attitude and then maybe you will understand.

Who has the attitude here? You're the one getting your panties in a knot because we refuse to accept the argument that you are both not a theist and have a personal relationship with God. It would be like believing that the Earth is only 6,000 years old and simultaneously believing that the Earth is 4.5 billion years old. You can't just say that you hold two mutually exclusive positions and expect people to pat you on the back for your brilliance.

Quote

You seem very heartless towards some one who genuinely cares whether you live or die, happy or sad, perhaps your content would be better placed on some one else.

How has anyone been heartless? I believe that your response was to One Above All, who is hardly a heartless person. He just has (as anyone should) a finely calibrated bullshit detector, and you are setting it off. If you think that someone is heartless just because they strongly disagree with your very confused definitions of theism and religion, then you just might have some unaddressed emotional problems.

Quote

You will never convince me that we are better off without God real or not as long as you set this kind of example for the atheist.

What? Is this a serious statement? So, because we are not willing to accept your claims because they have not reached anything like a burden of proof, you don't believe we would be better off without God? Look at all of the evil perpetrated by religious people, specifically because the holy books, church doctrine, and religious leaders say that it had to be done. If you can't be convinced that living in a world without God would be better, then I assume you would much rather live in Iran than Norway, Saudi Arabia instead of Iceland, or Afghanistan instead of Denmark. If you say you would much rather live in any of those northern European countries, then congratulations, you have just demonstrated your own point to be false. Note also that instead of addressing whether or not God is real, you are more concerned with how you feel about the question than what is actually present in reality. You don't care about what's true, just that religion makes you feel all warm and fuzzy. Why should we ever respect this? If by your own admission you are not interested in what is true, but rather how things make you feel, how can you possibly say that we are not open minded?

first if you believe in creation it is not unreasonable to accept that the creators are like our parents and we are their children

I am an engineer. I have worked in several industries. Once, I worked in automotive. I did not look at my creations - engines - as my children. I do not think watchmakers have such feelings about watches. Nor garment makers about socks. Etc.

I find it to be no more than wishful thinking or narcissism to imagine that the omnipotent creator of all being would see us as its children. More likely, it would see us more like the way we view bacteria. Only, since this god is supposedly infinite, we would be infinitely less to it than bacteria is to us.

The God that has performed the works described in my episodes is the God of the Bible. I cannot dismiss what he has done nor can I attribute those works to another non biblical God.

You've consistently failed to provide evidence to show that this is the case, or even that a god was involved at all. All you have is your emotional belief that it is true, but emotions are easily fooled. That's why the topic is about validating your belief in your god, rather than (say) making an emotional appeal for your god.

Quote from: WayneHarropson

the one thing you are not allowing into your reasoning is that there is one true God that performs the kinds of works that I have described. You are the one locked in an endless loop, not me. My God is capable of proving himself to me and all you can say is that my parents lied to me and that is the only place I could be getting my information. I don't just mine it form my past indoctrination, I have a personal experience that completely reinforces it

No, actually, he's not accepting any god as an explanation. The reason is simple - nobody has been able to show evidence for the existence of any god. All they can do is point to coincidences which they interpret as the work of their god, but are better explained by coincidence and chance. You are hardly unique in your insistence that it must be the god you believe in who's doing these things, and you are hardly unique in your inability to demonstrate that your belief is true.

Quote from: WayneHarropson

You need to read four or five of the accounts of intervention by god and ask me questions with regard to those examples of proof I have because all your questioning along the same lines will not persuade me that the supernatural events I report didn't occur. There is apossibility that you have read none of them and are only talking to me from what you have read here, If that's the case, we are both wasting time. Please tell me what of mine you have read so I can determine whether to continue this discussion with you.

What we're questioning is your insistence that those events are 'supernatural' in the first place. Right now, it seems to be the case that if you can't explain what happened, it must be supernatural. That logic does not fly, however. Long-shot coincidences happen; indeed, they're actually fairly common[1]. And, ultimately, all of your personal events boil down to long-shot coincidences combined with subjective experiences.

Quote from: WayneHarropson

The Spirit prompted me to do an unusual thing. While getting ready to leave my house for church I stopped at the door and my attention fixed upon a rock my daughter picked up on a hike. I put it in my sport jacket side pocket, and I had no idea why. During the first meeting at church someone tapped me on the shoulder and asked if I wouldn't mind sitting in for an absent teacher and team teach a class. I had never been asked to do anything like it and I agreed. The other teachaer had prepared the lesson but in the middle of the lesson came to a part that required a rock, and confess that he had failed to bring one. I took the rock out of my pocket and tossed to him and I knew that the spirit prompted me to pick the rock up because the spirit knew the lesson plan and I didn't. I didn't even know I'd be in the class. I was amazed when that happened, but not surprised because I had many encouters of the Spirit leading and that was just another example. So, you may want to abstain from accusing me of simply being credulous. It may apply to people worshipping false gods, it does in no way apply to those worshipping the God of the Bible in Spirit and in truth.

The reason people are accusing you of being credulous is because you take a coincidence like this (you pick up a rock, and end up needing a rock later on) and attribute it to the hand of your god. That's what credulousness means - too great a readiness to believe something. In your case, it's the god you believe in, and you end up attributing anything that is the slightest bit unusual to your god (or, I suppose, to your devil, if it's sufficiently bad).

Quote from: WayneHarropson

I'd ask you to explain how I knew to take a rock without the supernatural guidance, but I'm afraid that you will parrot everyone else here and say I have super intuition, or I just got lucky, or that statistics allowed it, but I'm hoping you don't because it's embarrassing to see people make fools of themselves. There is one very simple explanation. God was blessing me and that teacher with proof of his favor and guidance. Please don't try to explain it away.... It's just how it is. And don't tell me I can't prove to you that I took the rock to church, or that I imagined it, or I forgot the account. It's gettin tiring. Oh, and by the way I'm totally qualified to report exactly what happened to me, I don't need a theology degree or a doctorate in statistics, or psychology, or critical thinking. Read the stories and you will know that God intervenes.

You didn't know to take the rock. You were struck by it and decided, on impulse, to pick it up, and it just so happened that it came in handy later. The problem with your 'simple' explanation is that it really isn't simple at all. It requires a number of unwarranted assumptions that are conveniently packaged within the 'simple' explanation. For example, that your daughter brought the rock home at your god's urging, that he made sure your daughter would put it down right where you could see it, that he directed you to notice it, that he directed you to pick it up, that he made the other teacher forget the rock he intended to bring (or at least allowed him to forget it)... I'll bet I'm just scratching the surface here.

You seem to be expecting a bunch of skeptics to read about your experiences and take them at face value (credulously, in other words). Like it or not, Wayne, "please don't try to explain it away" doesn't fly here. If it did, we wouldn't be skeptics. We need more than just coincidences that you've assumed are supernatural. We need more than just a pile of anecdotes that you dump on us. We're extremely non-credulous people, Wayne, so we need factual evidence that we can check and verify.

Quote from: WayneHarropson

God demonstrates to me, I don't demonstrate anything.

If you can't (or won't) demonstrate these things to us, why are you here? We aren't credulous, so we aren't going to take your word for it.

Quote from: WayneHarropson

God might be hiding something from you but I have no intention of hiding anything from critical thinking.

Oh, I don't doubt that you're telling the truth as you believe it is. I simply don't accept that the truth is what you believe it is.

Quote from: WayneHarropson

You say I have beliefs, I say they aren't just imaginations that have no basis in fact and experience, what I know about God is supported by solid examples of intervention so they are anything but the result of being irrational arguments, credulity, gullibility, and uncritical examination. You may as well give up on those charges, they may work in other cases they are useless in discussing my case.

Nobody's saying these are things you just dreamed up, you know. The credulousness, irrationality and gullibility come from your unwillingness to consider any cause but the supernatural for these events.

Quote from: WayneHarropson

God is forbidding you to have the evidence you demand.

So, your god wants you to fail abjectly at convincing atheists and skeptics? That's certainly how it seems from this end; if (and bear in mind that this is a mighty big if) your god is real, then he sent you here completely unprepared to deal with atheists and skeptics, meaning he wanted you to fail, and fail repeatedly. Success would have required that evidence that you say your god 'forbade' us to have.

Quote from: WayneHarropson

I wouldn't bother if I was you. This is not a court of law, you must weigh, in my case whether my testimony is accurate, and make your decision. You either call me a liar, or you accept the testimony.

False dichotomy. There are other options; you could be mistaken, you could be delusional, you could have been misled...

Quote from: WayneHarropson

Your demand for the kind of evidence that God is denying you is not proof that my testimony is false, it's that an all powerful God can keep anything he wants from you, he doesn't care how much you demand it.

More likely, this is your attempt to rationalize away the fact that you cannot provide any such evidence, and to blame your god for it.

Quote from: WayneHarropson

You are so wrong! You must know it. God has proved Himself to me, it is ridiculous for you to declare that he hasn't proven himself to me just because it's not proof to you. That is arrogant. Now in time, as you would get to know me and as others have observed that are close to me, you would begin to see that I have exceptionally frequent demonstrations of supernatural occurrences, like that rock in the pocket thing, and you would after a while realise that something abnormal to nature is occurring and too frequently. I know it must be hard to grasp. I can tell you one thing, I personally have nothing to do with it. I have never called up a incident at will, they just happen to me. It's true. You will never be able to crack this case with your critical thinking, it is meant to confound.

Why must he be wrong? It's very simple; if your god proved himself to you, then it would have been child's play for him, an all-powerful god, to provide you with the evidence you needed to prove yourself to us. The fact that you cannot provide such evidence contradicts your assertions. And, as I stated before, long-shot coincidences happen frequently (once every few minutes, somewhere in the world). You've given us barely a dozen examples of so-called supernatural occurrences through your entire life. Given that you, yourself, could have had over a hundred long-shot coincidences just in the past decade, you will have to excuse me for not being willing to accept your assertion that they are "exceptionally frequent".

Quote from: WayneHarropson

You'd like to think that I'm not but you are the one blinded by confirmation bias. I'm going to predict that you are going to dismiss the guidance I got to take the rock to church as confirmation bias and you will be demonstrating confirmation bias of your own that has blinded you from the reality you have decided never to face, and that is that there is a true God and he is the one men describe in the Bible.

There's no reason that you couldn't also be blinded by confirmation bias. There are, in fact, four possibilities; neither of you are, both of you are, he is but you aren't, or you are but he isn't. Confirmation bias is when someone favors information or interpretations that confirm what they already believe (while disregarding alternate interpretations). You believe that there is a god, described in the Bible, and you are favoring interpretations of events that confirm this belief of yours (and disregarding alternate interpretations). Certainly seems like confirmation bias to me.

Have you ever had a conversation in which some old movie was mentioned, something like “The Golden Child” or maybe even something more obscure?

You laughed about it, quoted lines from it, wondered what happened to the actors you never saw again, and then you forgot about it.

Until…

You are flipping channels one night and all of the sudden you see “The Golden Child” is playing. Weird.

The next day you are reading a news story, and out of nowhere it mentions forgotten movies from the 1980s, and holy s**t, three paragraphs about “The Golden Child.”

You see a trailer that night at the theater for a new Eddie Murphy movie, and then you see a billboard on the street promoting Charlie Murphy doing stand-up in town, and then one of your friends sends you a link to a post at TMZ showing recent photos of the actress from “The Golden Child.”