This is a discussion on Spiritual divinity of torture in Christianity. within the The Debate Forum forums, part of the Topics of Interest category; Originally Posted by skycloud86
So? Fingerprints are not a sign of life or conciousness. You may as well say that ...

So? Fingerprints are not a sign of life or conciousness. You may as well say that a bruise or birthmark could be a sign of life.

How about the heartbeat?

When will I be able to hear my baby's heartbeat?

Fetal Heart Rate
From the date of the last menstrual period, the fetal heart will begin to beat on the 22nd day of development. This means that by the 5th week of pregnancy, the heart is beating. Until week 9, the fetal heart rate will increase 3.3 beats per day. In the early stages, the fetal heart rate is approximately 80-85 beats per minute (bpm). However, by the 9th week your baby's heart beat will be in the range of 155 to 195 beats per minute. Most expectant parents say that the fetal heart rate sounds like the galloping of a horse.

Or Brain Waves?"fetal brain activity" has been observed or "fetal brain waves" have been measured at 40, 43, or 45 days, or at 6 weeks after fertilization.

Originally Posted by skycloud86

In the US and Canada, are teenagers being taught about contraceptives?

Of course! I remember being taught in grade 7, I think kids are taught a lot earlier now though.

Originally Posted by skycloud86

If they are disposing of live babies in this way, then it is horrific and they should be dealt with and the practice stopped, but it's not an argument against abortion at all.

They are killing live babies once they are out of the mothers womb -- the definition of infanticide -- and that's not an argument against abortion? Huh???

Originally Posted by skycloud86

Most abortions take place very early in the pregnancy and for good reason - the woman was raped, the baby would be too disabled to survive, the woman's life was at risk. This is why teenagers need to be taught about contraceptives and safe sex.

People always use "rape" as a justification for abortion -- this is rarely ever the case. So, by that rationale we should just go and kill all disabled people, right?

Originally Posted by skycloud86

Then she's an hypocrite. It doesn't mean that all atheists or people who support gay rights are hypocrites. She's like the couple of Republicans in the US who rail against gay sex, then get caught in the bathroom of a public building with a rent boy.

What I'm saying is, in my experience, this is how most people are. While they say it's okay to be gay, they'll be completely offended if someone thinks they're gay, or whisper to friends about them and their lover in private. Very few are actually consistent in their beliefs.

Originally Posted by skycloud86

So should slavery be legalised? How about burning people at the stake for being "witches"? Maybe bring back feudalism whilst we're at it. Just because something is in the history of a country does not mean that it is a good or positive thing to have.

At primary school we had to sing hymns. I don't know what it's like in the religious schools we have here, but I think we in the secular schools got off lightly.

I doubt that. I was born in 1976 and we weren't allowed to read the bible, say the prayer or mention God in the pledge of alleigance after grade 3. And you're a lot younger than me. So, either you're lying or your situation was not the norm. Even if it was -- were you scarred? Is it happening today?
Christians have to listen to atheist ideology all the time in school.

Originally Posted by skycloud86

So is every other ideology. Are you saying that Christianity is special and should be given more protection than any other faith or ideology?

God was only in the picture after the Civil War. This is from the Treaty of Tripoli -

" Art. 11. As the Government of the United States of America is not, in any sense, founded on the Christian religion; as it has in itself no character of enmity against the laws, religion, or tranquillity, of Mussulmen; and, as the said States never entered into any war, or act of hostility against any Mahometan nation, it is declared by the parties, that no pretext arising from religious opinions, shall ever produce an interruption of the harmony existing between the two countries."

We seem to be running in circles here we have already stated the Government was not induced by Religious stronghold that would allow the Church to be in charge.
Everything you reply is just involving this aspect of the situation.
I rarely imply God or the term religion in many of my post or my writing that does not mean that I don't have Faith or what I say or do is based on that Faith.
You are ignoring the history of America and how it's first and earlier settlers and the Founding Fathers all had Faith in God. As I pointed out the Mayflower Impact was based on the people's Faith in God and this was a big influence not to mention the Bible was the biggest influence in writing the Declaration of Independence as well as almost every other past an most present influences in America.

Fetal Heart Rate
From the date of the last menstrual period, the fetal heart will begin to beat on the 22nd day of development. This means that by the 5th week of pregnancy, the heart is beating. Until week 9, the fetal heart rate will increase 3.3 beats per day. In the early stages, the fetal heart rate is approximately 80-85 beats per minute (bpm). However, by the 9th week your baby's heart beat will be in the range of 155 to 195 beats per minute. Most expectant parents say that the fetal heart rate sounds like the galloping of a horse.

Or Brain Waves?"fetal brain activity" has been observed or "fetal brain waves" have been measured at 40, 43, or 45 days, or at 6 weeks after fertilization.

Have you heard the common claim that "fetal brain waves" have been measured very early in pregnancy? Ever wondered how exactly that was done, and if it's true?
Good question, and no, it's not true. Instead, as with many "pro-life" assertions, it's based on very old research that has been taken out of context or misreported. It also depends on an incorrect, misleading definition of "brain waves," which is a nontechnical term anyway. Here's the real story.

The assertion is made over and over again that "fetal brain activity" has been observed or "fetal brain waves" have been measured at 40, 43, or 45 days, or at 6 weeks after fertilization. You can find the claim in "pro-life" and sometimes even nonmedical pro-choice literature. Sometimes a reference is cited, but most often not. This false information has passed into the general understanding about fetal development and is simply stated as fact. It is however a factoid instead, which is the name for a statment repeated often enough that people accept it as truth, though it's not.

One original source for the claim is Dr. Hannibal Hamlin's "Life or Death by EEG." This is a speech that was read before the Section on Nervous and Mental Diseases at the 113th Annual Convention of the American Medical Association in June 1964, and was printed in the Journal of the American Medical Association, October 12, 1964 (Vol 190, No 2, pages 112-114). Many claims reference it, for example this one from "Jack Dean" at a Compuserve address, cited by "The Pro-Life Advocate" on AOL:

At only 40 days after fertilization electrical waves as measured by the EEG can be recorded from the baby's brain, indicating brain functioning47, 48.
47. Hamlin, H. (1964), "Life or Death by EEG," Journal of the American Medical Association, October 12, 113.

As is typical of "pro-life" writings and websites, however, it's doubtful whether "Jack Dean" or anyone else has actually read Hamlin's speech, which makes citing it dishonest. Rather, the claim is coming from "Dr. Jack" Willke's Abortion: Questions and Answers:
When is the brain functioning?
Brain waves have been recorded at 40 days on the Electroencephalogram (EEG).
H. Hamlin, "Life or Death by EEG," JAMA, Oct. 12, 1964, p. 120

What does the speech really say? I've looked it up in an actual 1964 JAMA, and it's amazing that this antiquated document is still being used in ways that must have Hannibal Hamlin turning in his grave. For one thing, it's misleading and deceptive for people to quote it as if it were original research rather than a personal essay or opinion piece from one physician, and for another, the research Hamlin cited is ancient and long superseded.
Not surprisingly for 1964, Dr. Hamlin had nothing to say about abortion. Instead, the speech is a plea that "competent application and interpretation of the EEG should gain medical approval for legal pronouncement of human death." This was not medical or legal practice in 1964, when only the lack of a heartbeat and breathing determined death.

As part of the speech, which is largely a consideration of the brain and not the heart in defining human life and which includes quotes from Pope Pius XII and the poet Pindar, Hamlin said:

The electrophysiologic rhythm of the brain develops early. Detailed EEG tracings have been taken directly from the headend of 16 mm (crown-rump) human embryos at 40-odd days gestation, recovered from termination of pregnancies (Japan) 6 which revealed irregular slow waves, 0.2-2.0 per second at 10-90 mv with superimposed fine waves of 30-40 per second at 1-5mv. Recordings from embryos of 45 to 120 days gestation through surface and depth electrodes have shown reponses to sedative and stimulant drugs, normal sleep spindles, and the effect of lack of oxygen by paroxysmal high voltage slow waves and ultimate electrical silence.7 The intra-uterine fetal brain responds to biochemical changes associated with oxygen deprivation by abnormal EEG activity similar to that produced in the adult brain.7 Thus at an early prenatal stage of life, the EEG reflects a distinctly individual pattern that soon becomes truly personalized. This is not so the ECG in producing its various types of records at all ages, many specimens of each type being identical and lacking any individual quality.
This is the entire text regarding fetal "brain activity." Let's look at the footnotes.
6 is Okamoto and Kirikae's "Electroencephalographic Studies on Brain of Foetus of Children of Premature Birth and New-Born, Together With Note on Reactions of Foetus Brain Upon Drugs" (Folia Psychiat Neurol Jap 1951;5:135-146).

These researchers studied fetuses obtained through hysterotomy abortions (Cesarean sections), a procedure which is no longer used. They used electrodes on the surface of the fetal cortex or buried within it to obtain some of the activity mentioned (the technical details are incorrectly quoted by Hamlin) at 3 months of pregnancy, or more than 90 days, not at "40-odd days" as Hamlin said.

The first 7 actually also refers to this article. Contrary to what Okamoto and Kirikae found, however, in modern EEG studies "normal sleep spindles" are not seen in premature babies before 32-35 weeks, according to the medical textbook Electroencephalography: Basic Principles, Clinical Applications, and Related Fields, and no activity in the cerebral cortex, drug-stimulated or not, has been observed by anyone else as early as 120 days. This makes it likely that Okamoto and Kirikae's readings were mostly artifacts (electroencephalographic waves that arise from a source other than the brain). In partial corroboration, though, R. Engel (1964, 1975) is said in Electroencephalography to have obtained high-voltage medium (neither fast nor slow) waves from a 19-week (133 day) premature newborn as it died from lack of oxygen. In short, the Japanese research is either largely obsolete and uncorroborated, or incorrectly quoted by Hamlin, or both.

The second 7 refers to R.L. Bernstine's 1961 book, Fetal Electrocardiography and Electroencephalography. At this point Hamlin is talking about late-term fetuses, but the things he says are still questionable. No one was penetrating women's bodies to install electrodes on fetal scalps in 1961, or doing external fetal monitoring during labor, and the claim that the readings were done through a woman's abdominal wall or vagina and "the mother's brain waves subtracted out" is preposterous, given the susceptibility of an EEG to interference. Bernstine's work is not mentioned in any neurology or electroencephalography text I've searched (though Okamoto and Kirikae are). In any case, this reference isn't relevant to the "40 days" claim.

'Brain Waves' When??? (2)

Another source for the "40 days" claim is John R. Goldenring's "Development of the Fetal Brain," a letter published in the New England Journal of Medicine in 1982. "The Pro-Life Advocate" website quotes it along with Hamlin:
48. Goldenring, J. (1982), "Development of the Fetal Brain," New England Journal of Medicine, August 26, 1982, 564.
And so does Abortion: Questions and Answers:
Brain function, as measured on the Electroencephalogram, "appears to be reliably present in the fetus at about eight weeks gestation," or six weeks after conception.
J. Goldenring, "Development of the Fetal Brain," New England Jour. of Med., Aug. 26, 1982, p. 564
It's important to note that, like Hamlin's speech, letters published in medical journals are not subjected to the rigorous peer-review process that research is, and Goldenring's letter simply expresses his personal opinion that abortion might be banned after 8 weeks based on brain development:
...[P]hysicians have always determined when a person is alive by measuring for the presence of certain "vital signs." ...[W]hen it became possible to replace both cardiac and pulmonary functions with machines, physicians turned to measuring the function of the only truly unique and irreplaceable organ — the brain. I submit that from this effort, the following principle has clearly emerged: The presence of a functioning human brain means that a patient, a person if you will, is alive. This is the medical definition of human life. We use it daily.
Historically, physicians have approached fetuses in the same way as any other patient, seeking vital signs to determine the patient's status — hence the emphasis on quickening in legal and medical thinking before this century. If we consider the fetus with the more sophisticated modern definition in mind, we find that brain function, as measured by an electroencephalograph, appears to be reliably present in the fetus at about eight weeks' gestation.6,7,8

As with Hamlin's speech, no original research is being described here, which makes it dishonest and misleading to quote it as the source of a claim. But what did the sources Goldenring used have to say?
Andre Hellegers' "Fetal Development" was first published in Theological Studies, March 1970, and has often been republished in collections of writings on abortion. Hellegers was a professor of obstetrics and gynecology at Georgetown University Hospital and first director of its Kennedy Institute of Ethics who wrote about biomedical ethics. As with the other scientists and physicians quoted here, he never used the term "brain waves," but did write that

By the end of seven weeks tickling of the mouth and nose of the developing embryo with a hair will cause it to flex its neck, while at the end of eight weeks there will be readable electrical activity coming from the brain.9 The meaning of the activity cannot be interpreted.
Hellegers was talking about eight weeks from fertilization, not "at eight weeks' gestation" or "six weeks after conception" as Goldenring and Willke incorrectly claim, which makes it 56 days, not 40. But a bigger problem is that Hellegers was writing another personal essay, not reporting his own research. His source was D. Goldblatt's "Nervous System and Sensory Organs" in Intrauterine Development, a 1968 textbook which wasn't original research either.
On the other hand, Bergstrom's "Development of EEG and unit electrical activity of the brain during ontogeny" is original research. Only two courses of study on still-living aborted human embryos and fetuses have ever been done: Okamoto and Kirikae in Japan in the 1940s, and Bergstrom and Bergstrom in Finland in the 1960s. Like the Japanese researchres, the Bergstroms obtained live fetuses "immediately after separation from the maternal circulation" from hysterotomy abortions, which are no longer done, so for practical and ethical reasons this kind of research will not be repeated. But the Bergstroms, who also studied rat, guinea pig, cat, and chicken embryos, did not find anything that substantiates a claim of "brain function, as measured on an electroencephalograph" at six weeks of development, as Goldenring claims.

What they did find was published in various obscure Scandinavian journals or 30-year-old medical books that are hard to find. It's also very well described in The Facts of Life: Science and the Abortion Controversy, a book that's easily available in paperback.

They found "electrical activity" in fetal brainstem cells from 10 weeks of pregnancy (56 days after fertilization) on, but that doesn't mean much. An EEG involves measuring varying electrical potentials across a dipole, or separated positive and negative charges. Any living cell has an electrical potential across its membrane, and any living structure is a dipole, which explains why people have been able to put electrodes on plants, hook them up to EEG machines, and get "evidence" that plants have feelings. But this has nothing to do with "brain waves," which are a nontechnical term for a particular kind of varying potentials produced by certain brain structures that don't even exist in an embryo and associated with consciousness and dreaming as well as the regulation of bodily functions.

The Bergstroms did not find electrical activity of a kind that had anything to do with "brain function" until 84 days (12 weeks) of gestation, or 70 days after conception. The activity then recorded was not in any way similar to what is seen on a normal EEG, which includes what people call "brain waves." Rather, the Bergstroms stimulated the fetal brain stem and were able to record random bursts of electrical activity which looked exactly like the bursts they got from the fetal leg muscles when they were stimulated.

'Brain Waves' When??? (3)

At 17 weeks of pregnancy (119 days after fertilization) R.M. Bergstrom also reported finding "primitive wave patterns of irregular frequency or intermittent complexes from the oral portion of the brain stem and from the hippocampus" in the midbrain, according to Electroencephalography. Even the oldest fetuses that were studied, however, had no "brain waves" or other kind of signal from the cortex up to 150 or so days.
So all that this research showed, and reported, about the brain development of 56-to-70-day embryos and fetuses is that they have live nerve cells present in their brainstems. This is not the same as "brain waves" (Willke), or "electrical waves as measured by the EEG, indicating brain functioning" ("The Pro-Life Advocate"), or "coordinating and individuating brain function" (Goldenring).

In fact, of all the personal essays cited, only Hellegers got it right when he said that "readable electrical actitivity" is present at 56 days, but even he was wrong in saying that "The meaning of the activity cannot be interpreted." It can be interpreted: it means that fetal brain-stem cells are alive, interconnected, and react to stimulation, just the way fetal leg-muscle cells do.

Why has this subject not been researched since the 1960s? Apart from the fact that live aborted embryos and fetuses are no longer available, researchers now know more about the structure and development of the cortex, the highest part of the brain and the part that makes us who we are.

When people, including physicians, talk about "brain waves" and "brain activity" they are referring to organized activity in the cortex. While no embryo or fetus has ever been found to have "brain waves," extensive EEG studies have been done on premature babies. A very good summary of their findings can be found in Pain and its effects in the human neonate and fetus," a review article (often cited by "pro-lifers" writing about fetal pain, but not about brain development) by K.J.S. Anand, a leading researcher on pain in newborns, and P.R. Hickey, published in NEJM:

Functional maturity of the cerebral cortex is suggested by fetal and neonatal electroencephalographic patterns...First, intermittent electroencephalograpic bursts in both cerebral hemispheres are first seen at 20 weeks gestation; they become sustained at 22 weeks and bilaterally synchronous at 26 to 27 weeks.
There are reasons, based on the physics of the EEG, why this has to be so. Remember, an EEG involves measuring varying electrical potential across a dipole, or separated charges. To get scalp or surface potentials from the cortex requires three things: neurons, dendrites, and axons, with synapses between them. Since these requirements are not present in the human cortex before 20-24 weeks of gestation, it is not possible to record "brain waves" prior to 20-24 weeks. Period. End of story. Scientists do not attempt to find electrocortical activity in embryos and fetuses because they know more about the physical structure of the developing human brain than they did in 1963.
The irony is that Dr. Hannibal Hamlin himself would have been astounded at the use of his article to defend the personhood of embryos. The point of his speech, which only casually (and incorrectly) references fetal brain development, is to point out that

The sanctity of life must not depend upon cardiologic signs alone, with the brain excluded...Certainly the human spirit that emerges in man's unique individuality is the product of his brain, not his heart.
Willke, in Abortion: Questions and Answers, seems to agree:
Since all authorities accept that the end of an individual's life is measured by the ending of his brain function (as measured by brain waves on the EEG), would it not be logical for them to at least agree that individual's life began with the onset of that same human brain function as measured by brain waves recorded on that same instrument?
And Goldenring's discussion of "brain birth" as opposed to "brain death" makes the same suggestion:
I suggest that as physicians we should view human existence as a continuum from the first cell division of the fertilized ovum until the death of the last cell in the organism. When the coordinating and individuating function of a living brain is demonstrably present, the full human organism exists. Before full brain differentiation, only cells, organs, and organ systems exist, which may potentially be integrated into a full human organism if the brain develops. After brain death what is left of the organism is once again only a collection of organs, all available to us for use in transplantation, since the full human being no longer exists.

But the human part of the brain—the cortex—is not fully developed, as shown by "brain waves" on an EEG, until very late in gestation; in fact the EEG continues to change and mature into childhood. Indeed, the "individuating" function of a person's brain doesn't start to come into existence until the outer surface of the cortex begins to develop those deep furrows, grooves, and convolutions (sulci and gyri) that make a human brain look like a walnut, unlike the smooth brains of other animals. The furrows and grooves are what enable our brains to have millions more cells and connections between them than other animals, and so create our humanity. And the precise configuration of the grooves and convolutions are part of what determines our individuality; why, for instance, indentical twins have different personalities, and even, perhaps, why Einstein was a genius. However, these structures don't begin to form until the last 2 months of pregnancy.
So I have no objection to saying that "a human life" or "human personhood" begins when brain waves are measured on an EEG. That is well into the second half of pregnancy, however, no matter how many times the "40 days" factoid is repeated.

Of course! I remember being taught in grade 7, I think kids are taught a lot earlier now though.

So why are teenage pregnancy rates so high?

They are killing live babies once they are out of the mothers womb -- the definition of infanticide -- and that's not an argument against abortion? Huh???

Most abortions happen before a feotus can even be a living baby, and I disagree with the killing of these babies, who could be adopted. I don't see it as an argument against abortion, I see it as an argument for more ethical practising of abortion.

People always use "rape" as a justification for abortion -- this is rarely ever the case. So, by that rationale we should just go and kill all disabled people, right?

No, because not all disabled people have been disabled since birth and not all disabled people are seriously disabled. If a baby is so disabled that at best it could only live for a few hours, most likely in severe pain, you would rather that the mother went through a nine month pregnancy and hours of extremely painful labour just so that a disabled child could suffer for a few hours?

What I'm saying is, in my experience, this is how most people are. While they say it's okay to be gay, they'll be completely offended if someone thinks they're gay, or whisper to friends about them and their lover in private. Very few are actually consistent in their beliefs.

That's people who are socially conditioned to see being homosexual as a weakness, and can be found in all groups, including theists. I don't see how this reflects badly on atheists or atheism when people like your friend are found in all human groups.

I doubt that. I was born in 1976 and we weren't allowed to read the bible, say the prayer or mention God in the pledge of alleigance after grade 3. And you're a lot younger than me. So, either you're lying or your situation was not the norm. Even if it was -- were you scarred? Is it happening today?
Christians have to listen to atheist ideology all the time in school.

I'm from England and we have a different education system.

What atheist ideology are you talking about? Evolution?

The point is, we're given a lot less than others.

No, you're not. In fact, there are many groups who get far less than you - Jewish people, homosexuals, transgender people, transsexuals, the mentally disabled etc.

We seem to be running in circles here we have already stated the Government was not induced by Religious stronghold that would allow the Church to be in charge.
Everything you reply is just involving this aspect of the situation.
I rarely imply God or the term religion in many of my post or my writing that does not mean that I don't have Faith or what I say or do is based on that Faith.
You are ignoring the history of America and how it's first and earlier settlers and the Founding Fathers all had Faith in God. As I pointed out the Mayflower Impact was based on the people's Faith in God and this was a big influence not to mention the Bible was the biggest influence in writing the Declaration of Independence as well as almost every other past an most present influences in America.

Can you give me examples of how the bible was the biggest influence in writing the Declaration of Independence?

Jokes about rape, jokes about racial/sex stereotypes or blonde people. Most of what the Westboro Baptist Church regurgitates.

Why?

There is meant to be a principle of religious freedom and right to free speech in the United States, both of which would require the separation of Church and State.

The role of religion in early American government.

Because the United States was meant to be founded on the principle of liberty for all (although at the time, that meant liberty for white, male landowners), which would be contradicted by the idea of the US being founded as a Christian nation.

Believe me, dear Sir: there is not in the British empire a man who more cordially loves a union with Great Britain than I do. But, by the God that made me, I will cease to exist before I yield to a connection on such terms as the British Parliament propose; and in this, I think I speak the sentiments of America.
Thomas Jefferson, November 29, 1775

When in the Course of human Events it becomes necessary for one People to dissolve the Political Bands which have connected them with another, and to assume among the Powers of the Earth the separate & equal Station to which the Laws of Nature and of Nature's God entitle them, a decent Respect to the Opinions of Mankind requires that they should declare the causes which impel them to the Separation.

Believe me, dear Sir: there is not in the British empire a man who more cordially loves a union with Great Britain than I do. But, by the God that made me, I will cease to exist before I yield to a connection on such terms as the British Parliament propose; and in this, I think I speak the sentiments of America.
Thomas Jefferson, November 29, 1775

When in the Course of human Events it becomes necessary for one People to dissolve the Political Bands which have connected them with another, and to assume among the Powers of the Earth the separate & equal Station to which the Laws of Nature and of Nature's God entitle them, a decent Respect to the Opinions of Mankind requires that they should declare the causes which impel them to the Separation.

That just means that he believed in a god. He was either Deist (ie, not Christian) or Unitarian (which I doubt is your preferred brand of Christianity).

Our seventh President, Andrew Jackson, said concerning the Bible, “That Book, sir, is the rock upon which our republic rests.” Not only was that the opinion of President Jackson, but of every president before and since, as well as countless Americans. On the whole, Americans are a people who love the Bible and the God of the Bible. There is no book more powerful than the Bible to shape the morals and values of men and nations to be right and noble and just. It has proven itself over and over again in the formation and continuance of the greatest nation in history, the United States of America.

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