</div><div><br></div><div>So Bitcoins are the exact antithesis of fiat currency. They CANNOT be controlled by any one group, or government. You had your definition completely wrong. </div><div><br></div><div>And let me give you an example. I buy a product/service from China or Brazil using Bitcoins. They absolutely refuse to accept dollars. What do I use? We use Bitcoins as our currency because it has a value we both agree on (since we are exchanging it for a product/service) and its easily tendered between us. You simply can't use a very localized reference (IE transaction in the United States) when you are talking global currencies, which is exactly what Bitcoin is. It being a global currency, free from government regulation makes it non-fiat and highly tenderable. The value of it is established upon the parties doing the transaction (albeit goods, services, or anything else).</div>

<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><p dir="ltr">Go to a gas station. Right now. Pay for gas and a soda with bitcoins.</p>
<p dir="ltr">Don't take out your credit card. Don't use cash. Use bitcoins.</p>
<p dir="ltr">Why can't you? Because they don't understand its value?</p>
<p dir="ltr">I could say I have sea shells. I believe they have some value to me, but people don't understand their value, so I can't use them to pay for products immediately. But maybe I can trade someone else who values sea shells in trade for cash. Suddenly my sea shells have worth, despite the apparent lack of actual value as a wide currency.</p>

<p dir="ltr">Randy and Lynn are right on.</p>
<p dir="ltr">The more important part of this is that we ought to have competing currencies to keep whomever the issuers are honest. No one wants bad money. This criticism of no one taking Bitcoins is totally off base. First, not everyone knows about bitcoins or how it works. Secondly, the dollar is propped up for two reasons.. People have to use dollars because that's what the government forces banks to accept and because people think the government's handling of the money supply us trustworthy because most people don't understand the political motive to devalue currency</p>

<p dir="ltr">Lynn, while you may MAKE money off bitcoins, the value of the traded bitcoins and the inherint value you get from them is.....in dollars.</p>
<p dir="ltr">While some (very few) retailers may accept bitcoin, even their expectation is to either gain more bitcoins which they can then launder into dollars or exchange them as well for another service, but even THAT service expects the value of the bitcoins they pay to transfer to dollars somehow.</p>

<div dir="ltr">Chad,<div>I disagree. Bitcoins are just like anything, the value of it is determined by the demand/supply for it. The supply is very fixed by the network, and cannot be manipulated. Therefore the value is directly linked to the demand of the currency. </div>

<div><br></div><div>The exception with Bitcoin is that people are actually using as a medium of exchange for goods, services, and even currency exchange. I use it for all 3 of these. I don't think people used POGs as a medium of exchange.</div>

<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><div dir="ltr">It's like POGs.<div><br></div><div>Remember POGs?</div><div><br></div><div>BitCoins are like POGs. Really, in and of themselves, that have absolutely no value. But, for a while in the 90s, some people got RICH off of POGs. Why? Because they were able to convince people they needed to have them.</div>

<div><br></div><div>People bought into it - and some of <b><i>those</i> </b>people also got rich - because they collected and traded and sold them.</div><div><br></div><div>Eventually, it all came crashing down, because it is very hard to keep convincing people they need to spend actually real-world money on little cardboard discs.</div>

<div><br></div><div>BitCoin is POGs for the Twenty-Teens Tech Geek. It won't last. But there will be people who make money off of it. To them I say "Enjoy it while it lasts."</div></div><div class="gmail_extra">

<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><div dir="ltr">Aaron,<div>This is something I have been doing for the last couple of years. Bitcoin mining, and trading has been very profitable for me. I can't say for certain that it will always be this profitable, but I am damn sure going to ride this curve for as long as its making me money. </div>

<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><div dir="ltr">Agreed. Lets stop arguing about its merits and downfalls and focus on the important parts... Make the money now before they figure out how to devalue it. <div>

<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
<div style="word-wrap:break-word"><a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xmFXEcI_AA4" target="_blank">http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xmFXEcI_AA4</a> This about sums it up.<span><font color="#888888"><div>
<br></div><div>-B</div></font></span><div><div><div><br><div><div>On Aug 22, 2013, at 11:27 AM, Stephen Kraus wrote:</div><br><blockquote type="cite"><p dir="ltr">All you are doing by proposing replacing a regulated form of currency with a limited by design crypto currency is introducing the same problems we ditched by leaving gold backed currency.</p>

<p dir="ltr">It is deeply ironic that bitcoiners decry regulation without fully understanding that is exactly what large, monopolistic buisnesses want, or a magical free market thatwe technically had in the early 1900s and only led to massive worker and market abuses.</p>

<p dir="ltr">It is with even deeper irony that you decry government manipulation of markets, when the exact opposite led to massive and disastrous market fluctuations.</p><p dir="ltr">It is with the deepest irony that you decry manipulation of markets without realizing that studying and learning to manipulate markets is the ENTIRE point of economics.</p>

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<a href="http://www.cnbc.com/id/100923551" target="_blank">http://www.cnbc.com/id/100923551</a><br>
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<br>
On 08/22/2013 10:57 AM, Stephen Kraus wrote:<br>
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<blockquote type="cite"><p dir="ltr">If it happens, I'll be waiting for the flying pigs.</p>
<div class="gmail_quote">On Aug 22, 2013 10:00 AM, "Matt Keys"
<<a href="mailto:mk6032@yahoo.com" target="_blank">mk6032@yahoo.com</a>>
wrote:<br type="attribution">
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
<br>
Bitcoin is already an accepted form of payment. Some employers
like the Internet Archive already give that option to their
employees. In other words I see bitcoin as a stabilizing
factor in a crisis like that. In order to keep food, water,
shelter, etc. you'd need to pay those employees that keep
those utilities going... so you're gonna pay them in
sandwiches, water, and bullets -- or bitcoin? How would you
collect payments if you're an employer?<br>
<br>
What happened in Cyprus is a fact. Another fact that took
place around 80 years ago... "executive order 6102".
Governments historically try to seize or ban when they're
loosing control or wanting control of something -- land,
water, shelter, guns/ammo... even money.<br>
<br>
On 08/22/2013 08:59 AM, Stephen Haywood wrote:<br>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
If the Euro, or Dollar go belly up, the most usable currency
for a few weeks or months will be water, food, shelter, and
protection, not bitcoins. Now, after things stabilize,
bitcoins might rise up to be the new Euro/Dollar but it is
very unlikely.<br>
--<br>
Stephen Haywood<br>
Owner, ASG Consulting<br>
CISSP, GSEC, OSCP<br>
<a href="tel:423.305.3700" value="+14233053700" target="_blank">423.305.3700</a><br>
<a href="mailto:stephen@averagesecurityguy.info" target="_blank">stephen@averagesecurityguy.info</a><br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
On Aug 22, 2013, at 6:05 AM, Matt Keys <<a href="mailto:mk6032@yahoo.com" target="_blank">mk6032@yahoo.com</a>> wrote:<br>
<br>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
Yeah, have fun...<br>
<br>
Have fun trying to keep track of who's behind the IP in
each transaction... have fun trying to "regulate" a
peer-to-peer network with no central authority.
Downloading copyrighted material using bittorrent has been
deemed illegal and has been "regulated" by various
authorities... does it still happen? Do the authorities
know exactly how often this happens, from where, to/from
whom?<br>
<br>
The usual political fear mongering won't work. I think
what's happening is that governments are starting to wrap
their heads around this gigantic problem -- "how the hell
are we going to continue business as usual if this really
takes off worldwide?"<br>
<br>
This guy quoted on the cnbc article has the right idea,
but he's thinking about it in the wrong direction : "If
the euro does go belly up the German authorities could
potentially still collect tax if everyone started using
the bitcoin - that's a good example of German
forward-thinking!" -- <a href="http://www.cnbc.com/id/100971898" target="_blank">http://www.cnbc.com/id/100971898</a>
. If the Euro goes "belly up" nobody is going to give a
shit about German taxes. They're going to dump their Euro
money, as fast as possible, to bitcoin and another forms
of money. Think Cyprus crisis v2.0 on an exponential
scale.<br>
<br>
<br>
On 08/21/2013 04:21 PM, Stephen Kraus wrote:<br>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
Yeah, guess what it means.<br>
<br>
You have to report any profit you make from Bitcoin on
your taxes. Have fun!<br>
<br>
<br>
On Wed, Aug 21, 2013 at 3:59 PM, Tyler Mittan <<a href="mailto:flashbatmanquestion@gmail.com" target="_blank">flashbatmanquestion@gmail.com</a>>
wrote:<br>
Looks like Bitcoin is being recognized as "private
money" by Germany:<br>
<br>
<a href="http://www.cnbc.com/id/100971898" target="_blank">http://www.cnbc.com/id/100971898</a><br>
<br>
For those that don't take Austrian economics seriously,
notice the name drop of F.A. Hayek.<br>
<br>
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