Originally posted by Parts UnknownMy favorite little segment, weirdly enough, was the one where he was sitting at the announce table. He turned the camera, cracked a huge grin, flipped his pencil into the air in a very elaborate way and caught it flawlessly. The look on his face...one of pure joy and happiness...just broke my heart.

That bit made me so sad. The unabashed glee on his face.... Anyone else would have rehearsed that or insisted on its taping. For Hennig, it was just a thing. And he looked so happy, joyful, just giddy. It was as if Mr Perfect was being all the things we wanted to be, as kids; and he was the biggest kid of all. He was in on a joke that only we got. Sure, Vince had him wrestling and doing something  but the real fun, that fun belonged to us and him.

That smile, that joy.... I can't ever forget that. And I want to smile with him, but I can't. I feel as if I have to smile for him now. That grin, that little pencil flip.

Originally posted by Parts UnknownMy favorite little segment, weirdly enough, was the one where he was sitting at the announce table. He turned the camera, cracked a huge grin, flipped his pencil into the air in a very elaborate way and caught it flawlessly. The look on his face...one of pure joy and happiness...just broke my heart.

That bit made me so sad. The unabashed glee on his face.... Anyone else would have rehearsed that or insisted on its taping. For Hennig, it was just a thing. And he looked so happy, joyful, just giddy. It was as if Mr Perfect was being all the things we wanted to be, as kids; and he was the biggest kid of all. He was in on a joke that only we got. Sure, Vince had him wrestling and doing something  but the real fun, that fun belonged to us and him.

That smile, that joy.... I can't ever forget that. And I want to smile with him, but I can't. I feel as if I have to smile for him now. That grin, that little pencil flip.

Very well spoken, Jeb. I'm going to tape Confidential this weekend just to have that moment captured.

"Also, don't incur the wrath of P.U. It can only lead to trouble." - Torchslasher

Was Curt Hennig a talented worker? Sure, but so was Adrian Adonis and he didn't change the business.

Was Curt Hennig the heir apparent to Ric Flair? Seemskinda laughable with Ted DiBiase, who was larger andmore talented and more significant in the companyalready there, but let's ignore Ted and say Curt was theheir apparent anyway. So was Barru Windham in thelate eighties. Did Barry change the business or haveany lasting impact beyond matches that you and I lovebut that few fans have actually seen?

And sure, if Curt hadn't gotten hurt he might well havebeen pushed like Bret Hart and Shawn Michaels, buthe did get hurt while they got pushed. Adonis mighthave had more impact if he hadn't chubbed out andWindham certainly would have had more impact if hehad taken better care of himself, but what is the pointof counting those missed opportunities?

During Curt's actual WWF career he had "IC champ"and second tier guy written all over him. His "pursuit"of Hogan was no different than more than a dozenguys who came in, got pushed up to a match withHogan, then got dropped to some lower level. Well,actually it was a little different, Hennig never got tochallenge Hogan for the title on SNME. Poffo did.

This brings me to a particular section of Hogan's MyDad's post which called for more thought and research.

"Before Bret Hart had his first singles push Hennig was an occasional headliner against Hogan and the matches were well-received. Hennig was a non-bodybuilder and while certainly well-built, you can't say he was in the mould of most of Hogan's heel foils from 1984-1990." - HMD

And what was the "mould" of most of Hogan'sheel foils from 1984-1990?

"Even mid-sized men Hogan faced during that period, most notably Savage and Orndorff, were jacked to the maximum of any point in their careers during their programs with Hulk. And Perfect, in his prime, looked quite small compared with those guys during their Hogan runs." - HMD

Interesting, so Hogan's typical opponent was gassedout of his mind on steroids?

How many Hogan opponents did you go throughwhen developing that thesis?

I decided to do some research into Hogan's "typical"opponent by looking at SNME results.

Looking at that list, "muscular" doesn't jump out at me.Sure, Savage was muscular and he didn't happen toface Hogan on SNME, but neither did Piper (averagebuild) or Kamala (really fat guy) or Adonis (chunky).

Hogan took on all shapes and sizes and he took onsmaller wrestlers early and often from Roddy Piper,Bob Orton, and Terry Funk to Lanny Poffo.

Hennig's "pursuit" of Hogan, touted as proof that asmaller man could chase the champ was merelyfiller until the Hogan vs Warrior main event atWrestlemania. Yeah, Warrior was muscular andmaybe that's why he won, but then doesn't thatprove that Curt's filler program didn't changeanything?

As for Hennig pioneering the "cool heel" role, aquick review of Starrcade 87 will reveal that heelchallenger Flair was getting cheered heavilyagainst babyface champ Garvin. Heels like Piperhad large fanbases as well. In fact, people whocomplain about Backlund point to Jimmy Snukabeing seen as a cool heel way back in 1982.

You liked Hennig. That's great. It doesn't meanhe had much impact on the business. Had he notgotten hurt he might have had impact, he was avery good worker, but he did get hurt and otherslike Hart and Michaels did have that impact.

Curt's vaunted "pursuit" of Hogan was a mirage,a fond fanboy remembrance of the way thingsshould have been, not the way they were. Curtwas never seen as being on par with Ric Flair,or even Ted DiBiase for that matter. He was agreat worker tabbed for an IC level push, muchlike one of my favorites, Don Muraco. Curt gotpushed into a program with Hogan, but it wasas filler until Hogan could face the Warrior.

Frank

==========

Bigger names than Curt Hennig (unordered, but numbered to make it easy to count) :

I have no doubt Curt could have been a bigger namethan many on this list if he hadn't gotten hurt and ifhe hadn't milked the insurance settlement, but he did,so he isn't even in the top two dozen from any ten yearstretch one cares to select.

Is it necessary to go on such a tirade to dispute a recently deceased man's impact on wrestling?

Hennig was a talented performer who left his mark on the wrestling industry. He had the utmost respect from his peers and it would have been nice to see where how far he would have gone when Vince made the transition to smaller guys due to the steroid scandal.

Very few people changed the wrestling business, Curt wasn't one of them but he was very good at what he did.

: Is it necessary to go on such a tirade to dispute a : recently deceased man's impact on wrestling?

I believe it was the Mad Hungarian who posted:

:: ...we should all stop and reflect on how important :: he was to the business.

So that's what I'm doing, reflecting on the facts ofCurt's career rather than inventing fictions abouthis supposed "pursuit" of Hulk Hogan where heapparently pursued Hogan into the waiting armsof the Ullltimate Warrior.

: Hennig was a talented performer

Agreed.

: who left his mark on the wrestling industry.

Not really.

: He had the utmost respect from his peers

As a performer, yes, but as a person they hated him.Check out Bradshaw's backhanded "rememberance"of Curt on the WWE website. Curt had a reputationfor being a total asshole and shitting, literally takinga crap, on other wrestlers clothes in the locker room.

: and it would have been nice to see where how far : he would have gone when Vince made the transition: to smaller guys due to the steroid scandal.

Agreed, and we can certainly discuss that, but weshouldn't claim that it actually happened. For avariety of reasons including a real injury and alsoincluding faking injury to defraud an insurancecompany, Hennig never lived up to his promise.It happens to lots of guys, but it's an insult to thosewho were influential to overrated Hennig's influence.

I know it's nice to say nice things about dead people,but how is making stuff up a sign of genuine respect?

: Very few people changed the wrestling business,: Curt wasn't one of them but he was very good at: what he did.

Boston, your "top 25" list doesn't hold much water without any sort of... you know... facts to back this up. What're you basing this list on, aside from personal preference?

I mean, Rick Rude? Sid? Jake Roberts?

These guys were all big names, but none of them were any bigger than Hennig was. Rick Rude was out for extended periods exactly the same way Perfect was, and the only time he was ever higher on the card than IC level was in WCW with their bogus "International" title. If Hennig had been in WCW at the time? He'd have been in the exact same spot, for the exact same reason.

Sid was pushed time and again because bookers are marks for big people, and his consistent lack of drawing power or any major crowd reaction to him at any point is a testament to just exactly how out-of-place on your list he is. And hell, if you're going to dq Hennig for being gone with a LEGIT injury, why is Softball Sid even on the list at all?

And hell, I'm a huge Jake mark and there's no WAY you can sit there and tell me with a straight face that he was ever higher up on the food chain than Mr. Perfect. He wasn't ever really a serious contender to any belt.

Curt Hennig, Mr. Perfect, was important to this business because he was good at what he did. He left a mark because he had a memorable character, who did things no one else did. You can look at a lot of the arrogant heel characters today and see some of Mr. Perfect in them. If that's not leaving a mark by your standards, well, I'd say that's your problem.

Kansas-born and deeply ashamedThe last living La Parka Marka: HE raised the briefcase!

And of course, ranking Rick Steiner above Hennig is simply insulting. Not even Scott. Oh, yeah I know, they were a great team with some great matches, but certainly not at Hennig's level, especially late into their careers (while Hennig was still wrestling decent matches and Rick and Scott went to hell).

Of course any such list is completely subjective, and your list is no less correct or incorrect than any other person's. The fact that so many of his fans have showed up on message boards like this one and the fact that the WWE is going out of their way to honor him, however proves that at the very least that he had a big impact on both the business and its fans.

: Boston, your "top 25" list doesn't hold much water: without any sort of... you know... facts to back : this up. What're you basing this list on, aside: from personal preference?

Rick Rude main evented for the WWF world titleagainst the Ultimate Warrior at SummerSlam 90.

I'll let you bring the facts for Hennig.

: Sid was pushed time and again because bookers are: marks for big people

Agreed, Sid was a choad, but he was as you say"pushed time and again" higher and harder thanCurt Hennig.

: And hell, I'm a huge Jake mark and there's no: WAY you can sit there and tell me with a: straight face that he was ever higher up on: the food chain than Mr. Perfect. He wasn't: ever really a serious contender to any belt.

His gimmick was better known, in part because oflongevity, and I note than he also main eventedfor WCW against Sting at Halloween Havoc.

Speaking of Havoc, there is Rude again, 3rd fromthe top one year, in the semi-main the next.

Again, I'll let you bring the _facts_ for Hennig.

: Curt Hennig, Mr. Perfect, was important to this: business because he was good at what he did.

So was Paul Orndorff. Wait, Orndorff drew more than 60,000 opposite Hogan for the WWF title.

Hennig drew _____ opposite Hogan for the title?

Should I add Paul Orndorff to the list, too?

: You can look at a lot of the arrogant heel : characters today and see some of Mr. Perfect: in them.

"Ric Flair: The Arrogance of Greatness" - PWI in the mid-eighties

Arrogant heels may have been new to you whenCurt came along. Some of us are a bit older.

====================

The MASKED Hungarian posted:

: 1) I agree that lists are very subjective....

Nah, that's a red herring for people who don'twant to face facts in this case. We're notdebating who was a better worker, I wouldn'tbe listing Dusty Rhodes and Andre the Giantif that were the case.

Who had more impact on the business? It's easyto go back and look at where people were slottedby their promotions. Curt was mainly slotted bythe WWF at the IC level, with the exception ofthe Hennig/Poffo time filler with Hogan priorto Hogan vs Warrior, the important rivalry.

: but you're going to argue that the British : Bulldog had a greater impact? Not Dynamite: Kid....but Davey Boy Smith??

Impact at the gate and in terms of fame goesto the man who fought for World titles in two real promotions. I'm not talking here about"influence" as in inspiring copycats, simplyimpact during a career. But, if you want toargue that Dynamite also had more impact thanHennig, be my guest. I'm comfortable thatDavey Boy Smith had more impact than Hennig.Of course Davey had more time to have impact.

:: 2)"As a performer, yes, but as a person they:: hated him."

: So you've interviewed how many wrestlers to: come up with that conclusion?

Point me to anyone in this thread who hasinterviewed a wrestler, yourself included.

Why is it that gushing never requires research?

: 3) MASKED Hungarian...not Mad - its the: little things

Little things like Rude getting pushed at theWorld Title level while Hennig was scratchingaround with the IC title?

Curt was a better worker than most of the guyson my list, but he wasn't a star in both theUS and Japan like the Steiners, he didn't getpushed as hard as Sid... in both promotions,and he didn't have nearly the longevity orname recognition of Jake "The Snake" Roberts.

I jumped into this thread to refute the notionthat Curt was a major figure in the business,he simply wasn't. He probably meant less tohis promotions than Arn Anderson, though Arndidn't get pushed as high as Hennig.

Frank

(Editing to replace "long" with "known".I'd also like to apologize to the MASKEDHungarian for getting his name wrong.)

Originally posted by Hogan's My DadI think actually, Hennig's influence on the business is a lot larger than you think.

And I'll give you the number 1 reason. Number 1. The piece of vide we say dominating the tribute the other night. With Curt making half-court baskets and so on, were, to my knowledge, the 1st long-term, pre-entry, get the product over viginettes I ever remember seeing. They GOT Curt over even though he was coming from the AWA, which, to be frank, wasn't much by that time.

And the WWF later used the same concept with other players coming in:Flair, for one had this, as did others. And it's common today (Nathan Jones is a current example)

Hennig did hold the AWA title, while it didn't mean much by 1987 the fact that he was a world champion should not be dismissed. As a fan in the 80's being AWA world champ meant as much to me as being NWA or WWF champion.

-also- Hennig fought for the WCW title against Goldberg on ppv at Bash at The Beach 1998.He was in (and a pivotal part of) the Fall Brawl 98 main event.Hart vs. Hennig at Summerslam 91 is second to the top as the sub main event.I also remember much of the (non Luger/Yokozuna) hype for Summerslam 93 being about Hennig vs. Micheals.Hennig seconded the world champion in the co-main event at WM8.Hennig played a major role in the suspense and eventual outcome of Summerslam 92.Hennig fought in the main event of Survivor Series 92.Hennig was present in the co-main event at WM10.Hennig was a legit challenger to Hogan's title in '90 (I have never forgotten the image of Hennig smashing Hogan's world title)He nearly won the royal rumble in 90, being the last man eliminated and again TWELVE years later in 2002 making the final four.

I'm not saying Hennig was the greatest, but his career was an impressive one that should not be so easily rejected. Obviously the outpouring of grief and kind words by his fans, friends and family prove that the man was important to the wrestling industry.

My question for you is why are you so eager to dismiss the career of Hennig?

1) Point me to anyone in this thread who hasinterviewed a wrestler, yourself included.

Why is it that gushing never requires research?

There is a huge difference between MY opinion of how impactful Henning's career was and YOU stating the opinion of wrestlers you've never talked to about the man. If you said YOU hated him that's fine...because it's YOUR opinion...but you're throwing a blanket statement about men you've never met hating a guy.

If Curt Henning did NOT have a deep impact on this business then McMahon wouldn't be devoting the time he is to his career. I'm trying to remember the last time someone received the still screen treatment then a video package and finally a Confidential piece. Vince McMahon has never been accused of being a humanitarian so for him to do this something must be special.

AWArulz wrote:: And I'll give you the number 1 reason. Number 1.: The piece of vide we say dominating the tribute: the other night. With Curt making half-court: baskets and so on, were, to my knowledge, the: 1st long-term, pre-entry, get the product over: viginettes I ever remember seeing.

Outback Jack had them earlier. As did others DiBiase's Million Dollar Man gimick. Heck, the Fab Ones had them in Memphis long before that.

: And the WWF later used the same concept with: other players coming in:Flair, for one had: this, as did others.

Actually, Flair didn't. Hennan showed his belt at SummerSlam. Hennan talked about him on the shows a bit. Then Ric showed up on Primetime and one of the Syndicated shows. Hogan also did an interview acknowleding Flair.

I rarely open fire on anyone here on the board, but Boston Idol, you are a moron.

Just because Sid and Rick Rude were pushed harder than Hennig means he made less of a contribution to the business? Since when does McMahon's "big man push of the month" constitute a contribution to the business?

I guess Ludvig Borga made more contributions than Hennig, huh? How about Giant Gonzalez?

Most of us (the IWC) will always think of Hennig when we remember that special era of the WWF when we were children and when we were marks. Screw Lex Luger, screw Hall and Nash, and screw 90 percent of the other guys on your list: Hennig is etched in my memory for his skill, his personna and his charisma. He epitomizes the joy I used to feel as a kid when I turned on Prime Time Wrestling...and that's more than enough of a "contribution" for me to honor Hennig.

"Also, don't incur the wrath of P.U. It can only lead to trouble." - Torchslasher

Masked Hungarian wrote:: If Curt Henning did NOT have a deep impact: on this business then McMahon wouldn't be: devoting the time he is to his career. I'm: trying to remember the last time someone: received the still screen treatment then: a video package and finally a Confidential: piece.

Confidential hasn't been around long, so it's moot when comparing with prior wrestlers who dropped dead. But Rood and Davey Boy and plenty of others got pieces. Owen got a whole show, and Pillman had a show built largely around him (teasing towards that horrid interview Vince did with his wife).

Perhaps a better question is which WWf guys from that era *haven't* gotten pieces? I mean, obviously guys like Louie didn't. Some of these guys died before the "Kinder Gentler Vince" era, such as JYD and Studd. Does anyone remember what they did for JYD?

: Vince McMahon has never been accused: of being a humanitarian so for him to: do this something must be special.

Nah, Vince has been accused of trying to get himself over. Using death to get over is a common thing, especially in the wrestling business. From Fritz to RYDER to Vince to Meltzer to Lano.

And, since I'm psychic, I'll get this out of the way right off the bat. One of the (many, thank you krakken for the faster-than-myself work) facts krakken brought up was his world title match against Goldberg. "Well," I can hear you huffing, "He was just being fed to the Goldberg machine. He had no real chance, and everyone knew it."

And Rick Rude had a chance against the Ultimate Warrior in the first big match after he won the title. Both matches had the same purpose: to get the champs over as dominant. Thus, they are, at best, equal in determining any sort of status for the participants.

-Agreed, Sid was a choad, but he was as you say-"pushed time and again" higher and harder than-Curt Hennig.

Yes. And each time, that push bombed. Sid's impact on this business so far has essentially been as a champ who can't draw and doesn't excite the crowd. I'd say that's a negative impact, wouldn't you? If you're not taking positive vs. negative into account and only looking at the size of the splash you should've had Ole Anderson and the mythical, diabolical IWC version of HHH on your list waaaaay high up there.

And again, the fact that Sid cared so little about the biz that he bailed to play softball counts for a lot against him.

-His gimmick was better known, in part because of-longevity, and I note than he also main evented-for WCW against Sting at Halloween Havoc.

Well, whether Jake "The Snake" is a more well-known gimmick than Mr. Perfect is highly debatable. (And, ultimately, subjective.) And as far as his one-shot against Sting... where did that go again? Ohhh yeah. Nowhere.

Okay, now you're grasping at straws. The Orndorff-Hogan feud was a completely different beast. It took place much earlier in Hogan's career, before he'd started to become stale, and had a hell of a lot more behind it than Hennig's run at Hogan, which was basically just a placeholder until his loss to the UW. (Note that I have never implied otherwise.)

-Arrogant heels may have been new to you when-Curt came along. Some of us are a bit older.

Yes, and age automatically gives you a great deal of authority... if you're talking about where to cash your Social Security check. Don't be an asshole.

The Flair-style heel and the Perfect-style heel may be similar, but they're pretty easy to distinguish if you, you know... pay attention. Flair played the playboy, high-flyin', I'm-the-champ-and-you're-not type of character. Never claimed to be the best, per se, just that he would beat you, by hook or by crook. Perfect was the best. He was lost in his own ego, to a far, far greater extent than Flair. Jericho combines the two of them, as does HHH and Kurt Angle. Hell, there's a fair amount of Hennig's ego in Chris Benoit's heel character, too.

And if you're going to say that Arn Anderson wasn't a major figure in the WCW... well, you're just deluding yourself, but that's a whole other thread. And is also fairly obvious.

Kansas-born and deeply ashamedThe last living La Parka Marka: HE raised the briefcase!

:: Arrogant heels may have been new to you when:: Curt came along. Some of us are a bit older.

: Yes, and age automatically gives you a great: deal of authority...

No, I was just trying to provide an excuse forsome of the comments made on Hennig's behalf inthis thread which seem rooted in the belief thatpro wrestling began around 1990.

Curt wasn't the first character to be introducedby a series of vignettes, he wasn't the firstcool, arrogant heel, etc. Anyone who startedwatching wrestling prior to 1990 would know that. The Outback Jack promos were legendary.

: Flair played the playboy, high-flyin', I'm-the: -champ-and-you're-not type of character. Never: claimed to be the best...

Nowhere did I claim that Mr. Perfect was the first arrogant heel, or any of the other things you mentioned. I said he was damn good at what he did, good enough to be remembered by the fans and imitated/admired by his peers, and that some of your choices of people who had a greater impact in the business than he did were highly debatable.

If you're going to get snarky about something you read, get snarky with the person who said it. All you're going to accomplish by pulling that on me is make yourself look like a prick, and this is far too interesting a subject to just walk away from because of the asshole factor.

Kansas-born and deeply ashamedThe last living La Parka Marka: HE raised the briefcase!

Nate, Parts Unknown - let's try to back off the namecalling, please. I'm pretty sure both of you are perfectly able to attack Frank's position without having to resort to attacking Frank.

Originally posted by jdwDoes anyone remember what they did for JYD?

Hey, I do!

Jim Ross: "Last Tuesday, Sylvester Ritter, better known as the Junkyard Dog, was tragically killed in an automobile accident. The Dog's big heart and undeniable charisma made him one of the most beloved WWF superstars of his era. JYD will always hold a special place in our hearts, and our thoughts, and our prayers go out to his family." "JYD" Sylvester Ritter 1952-1998