Top Cryptocurrency Experts Talk about Bitcoin, Blockchain and ICO’s

Cryptocurrencies. It’s the talk of the day, a live history and, stay in your seat, but perhaps an end of the financial and social system as we know it.

Yet, it feels as only a few understand cryptocurrencies’ deep foundations, how it works and where the notion heads for.

We gathered cryptocurrencies experts, real experts. They know the technology, the conflict inside the Bitcoin world, the aspiration, the obstacles and much more.

Meet The Experts

Please tell our readers about yourself and your company. What is your first experience with Cryptocurrencies? What is your relation to the crypto world?

Mr. Rosenfeld: I’m a mathematics M.Sc. graduate of the Weizmann Institute of Science, specializing in machine learning. I have worked as the head of research of the internet startup Similarweb, where I was in charge of developing algorithms for measuring connections between websites and analyzing web traffic.

I first heard about Bitcoin in March 2011 from a blog post on lesswrong.com. Shortly after I’ve quit my existing job to focus exclusively on activities in this area.Among other things, I have established the Bitcoin community in Israel, founded Bitcoil – Israel’s first Bitcoin exchange service, and performed mathematical research on the algorithms that underlie the functioning of the Bitcoin and blockchain system.

I now serve as the chairman of the Israeli Bitcoin Association, a nonprofit organization with the goal of maximizing the benefit that the people in Israel gain from the Bitcoin/Blockchain technology.

Mr. Herzog: Eyal Hertzog is a venture-backed technology entrepreneur for over 20 years. Since 2014 Eyal has been working in the cryptocurrency space, beginning with AppCoin, empowering local communities with local currencies, and now Bancor Protocol, an on-chain, fully decentralized conversion solution between tokens connected to the network, through a low-cost, perpetual and adjustable smart contract liquidity mechanism. Bancor successfully completed a record-breaking token sale in June 2017, raising over $153 million for BNT, the Bancor Network Token, which serves as the hub connector for the Bancor Network™, a decentralized liquidity network allowing every integrated token to be instantly converted to any other, with no counterparty.

In addition, Eyal is a talented piano and bass musician and enjoys windsurfing and snowboarding in his free time.

After reading a bit about Bitcoin I got hooked, downloaded a Bitcoin wallet and bought my first Bitcoin. Later on, I decided to create an information website since I figured what better way is there to learn about something than teaching it to others. Today 99Bitcoins (which was officially founded in January 2014) serves almost 2 million readers each month who are looking to take their first steps into Bitcoin and cryptocurrencies.

Ms. Torteman: Deloitte’s global experience with blockchain technology started with Blockchain 1.0 back in 2009, when the major focus was on the bitcoin and other cryptocurrencies application, and developments were mostly concentrated around payments implications. Ever since throughout the “evolution” toward the Blockchain 2.0 and to the Distributes Ledger Technology (DLT), Deloitte has been operating substantially as a thought leader to encourage cultural and market education of the DLT business potential, and in developing proofs-of-concept and production-ready solutions across different sectors.

Industries ranging from the Financial Services to the Industrial Sector, Retail and Distribution, Supply Chain, Life Science & Health Care, State Governments, Telecom, Real Estate, Energy and Resources, Automotive, Media, and others. Up until today, Deloitte has launched globally over 45 POCs exploring different blockchain application, in use cases such as International Trade, Supply Chain, Cross-Border Payments, KYC and others, and holds many strategic collaborations with many of the world’s leading blockchain players. Deloitte operates today 4 blockchain labs globally, devoted to developing, delivering and deploying blockchain business application. We offer diverse practices and professional services to accompany both blockchain initiatives and startups, as well as enterprises and corporates.

Mr. Assia: I started trading when I was 13 years-old when my father taught me about the markets, and have been fascinated ever since. My brother and co-founder Ronen Assia who comes from an industrial design background used to say that I have the hobbies of an accountant and how he understood nothing from all the screens and charts in my room.

It was clear to us from the beginning that the global markets and economies were connected to one another, yet somehow 99% of the world was disconnected and disengaged from this ecosystem. In 2007, we invented eToro under the vision that we wanted to open up the global markets for everyone to trade and invest in a simple and transparent way. Today, eToro is a global trading and investing platform, with over 6 million registered members and thousands of new accounts opened each day. eToro’s mission is to revolutionize the way people access the financial markets.

We started looking at Bitcoin in January 2011, after a long romance I had (and still do) with creating new and better currencies for the world. Back then we bought some Bitcoins and tested the technology – which fascinated us. In September 2012, we started a project which became www.coloredcoins.org, the main mission of this project was to enable anyone to create additional currencies to be traded as P2P assets on the blockchain exchange.

When we started writing the specifications of the new colored coins protocol – we started working with Vitalik Buterin, who later on decided to start his own path and created Ethereum. When we realized that in order to build the coloredcoins infrastructure we will need to invest a lot of money and it’s premature for the core business of eToro, we decided to spinoff coloredcoins, and since then Colu coin has raised more than 15M USD and launched virtual currencies for local communities.

As cryptocurrencies are considered to be an alternative to central banks and Fiat money, how do you see cryptocurrencies integrate into our financial system in a regulated and responsible way?

Mr. Rosenfeld: I believe cryptocurrencies are a challenge for regulators and will continue to be so, and that is a good thing. In general, I believe that less regulation is needed than the one that we currently have, but so far the technology for a less-regulated financial system did not exist. The advent of Bitcoin and other blockchain applications necessitate rethinking the goals of regulation and how the current approaches should be adopted.

The first step is that cryptocurrencies are used without a clear regulatory framework. The next step will be that the traditional framework will be expanded to encompass cryptocurrencies. However, many of the existing definitions were not intended to cope with the new concepts that have been introduced; and eventually, completely new frameworks, which are appropriate for this new economy, will have to be devised.

In the following decades, cryptocurrencies will coexist side by side with traditional currencies, but it is plausible that within 30-40 years, they can replace them completely.

Mr. Herzog: I believe that this will be a long process and we can also learn from the process that we’ve already seen take place on the internet.

For example, many services that were heavily regulated, such as radio and TV, migrated into digital networks and took on new forms in terms of content creation, approval and distribution. This created a very different landscape that could not be easily compared to the previous reality and so required new thinking around how to best protect consumers while upholding freedom of speech among other considerations. So the regulations we have today for the financial sector, which is in many ways designed to protect end users and customers from fraud and other dangers, may not be relevant to a new reality of an interconnected world of cryptocurrencies. It will likely require a different set of tools, different types of protections and different thinking.

Mr. Beigel: Sure, I think many currencies will jump on the opportunity to solve major banking issues just like Ripple is doing. Also, I personally believe Bitcoin will become regulated eventually. That, of course, doesn’t mean everyone will follow regulations (the same way people avoid regulation on US dollars), but it will eliminate a lot of the fear surrounding Bitcoin and cryptocurrencies in general.

Ms. Torteman: Cryptocurrencies interests across the Financial System worldwide is indeed on the rise. More than 80% of the world banks today are experimenting with blockchain and bitcoin technologies, and this figure is predicted to increase in the coming years. Government organizations worldwide are exploring the use of blockchain technology to improve their operations, where notable examples include Japan who approved this year recognizing bitcoin as a legal method of payment while also categorizing it as a kind of prepaid payment instrument; The U.S. Federal Reserve plan to issue a FedCoin cryptocurrency which will provide two way physical convertibility between the fiat money and electronic reserves, and in China, the National Central Bank (PBOC) is developing its own digital currency. Market adaptation of the bitcoin within stock exchanges worldwide is increasing as well, as bitcoin has proven its practicality and viability as a safe asset with the potential to serve as a counterpart to economic uncertainty, leading to both investment firms and individual investors to continuously purchase bitcoin.

Despite these amazing developments and the wide advantages cryptocurrencies brings, their successful implementation and cross-global adaptation face a number of challenges and critical questions. First, in terms of theory: cryptocurrencies are neither intrinsically valuable, like gold, nor do they have roots in a commodity expressing a certain purchasing power.

What kind of economical long-term impact would yield their mass global adaptation and their potential replacement of existing monetary paradigms? Cryptocurrencies represent the first time that a societal function such as the transference of funds, thought to require a trusted party, is replaced by algorithms and protocols. Will these adaptations change our existing global monetary system? Do we need to redefine how we understand economics today? And will other societal functions such as Law, Government, Corporation, and Academia follow suit and be replaced? Second, there remains considerable uncertainty in many markets over the future of the regulatory environment, and whether cryptocurrencies are considered a foreign currency; a commodity or asset, treated like goods; or represent a completely new form of currency which requires a whole new financial paradigm.

As modern currencies have always been created and regulated by national governments, what would be the implications of shifting from this “historic model”? We believe that answering these questions and others is essential for the true integration of cryptocurrencies into the financial system, and we are seeing that regulators worldwide are indeed exploring these issues.

Mr. Assia: The technology that powers Bitcoin and other cryptos, is a disruptive invention in the computer science field, called the blockchain. As a computer scientist myself, I believe this technology is comparable to when I first discovered the internet in 1995 and learned about TCP/IP. It’s as big invention as electricity and the internet; While new technologies might disrupt it, there is a clear network effect and first mover advantage when launching this type of technology. I believe that governments will have to adapt to blockchain technology. In a recent research paper that I read, it stated that a significant number of central banks in the world are already looking at blockchain technology, and due to the gravity of blockchain it will be inevitable that they will have to adopt it.

Bitcoin and other cryptocurrencies are under pressure since the beginning of 2018. What are the main reasons and how do you think cryptocurrencies will perform in the rest of the year?

Mr. Rosenfeld: We’re seeing now the aftermath of a textbook bubble in the price of Bitcoin and other cryptocurrencies. The hype and media attention outpaced the capacity for growth in the fundamentals, leading to inflated expectations. During the peak, we’ve warned that the bubble would likely burst, and it did. This is all par for the course and we’ve been there before – there was a major bubble in Bitcoin’s price in 2011, and twice in 2013.

In the long run, I expect continued growth in all parameters. What happens in the short run is anyone’s guess, but I hope that 2018 will be the year where we get much more regulatory clarity and the adoption of new exciting technological improvements to Bitcoin such as the lightning network.

Mr. Herzog: The prices of cryptocurrencies have been volatile historically. This is a new and unfamiliar space, with limited successful case studies and a lot of speculation, so investors sentiment can change quickly. Current sentiment seems to be on a positive trend but until we witness more successful examples of blockchain solution, it is expected to remain highly speculative.

Mr. Beigel: The main reason for the pressure so to speak is mainly government regulation. That’s actually a good thing because it means Bitcoin is becoming more and more mainstream. What we should be focusing on is not the fact that the hype has died down but rather the fact that even with all of this pressure Bitcoin is still growing in adoption day by day. Other cryptocurrencies are just following Bitcoin’s lead as far as I can tell and at the moment I personally don’t pay a lot of attention to them. My guess is that 2018 will be the year of Bitcoin regulation so to speak, and that will lay the foundation for mass adoption once the next price spike arrives. Since by then it will be considered “normal” to buy Bitcoin.

Mr. Assia: The early part of the year is historically a tricky time for cryptocurrencies, but speculation about regulation in recent months has also been weighing on the market. Even long-term investors have been tested by continued sideways price movements. But it’s important to remember that cryptocurrencies are in the early stages of development, so these cycles are to be expected. We expect to see the price of cryptocurrencies continue to rise over the long term, although price volatility will remain a feature while the market matures.

Bitcoin prices rose exponentially during 2017, creating bubble talk. Although cryptocurrencies suffered a sharp drop in prices during 2018, do you believe that the current prices actually reflect the real value or perhaps prices are overvalued?

Mr. Rosenfeld: It’s no secret that currently, Bitcoin is used for speculation much more than for actual commerce. While this remains the case, the exchange rate will be volatile and there will be no clear-cut answers to questions about the sustainability of any given price point.

It also means that Bitcoin price is strongly tied to the probabilities of different future scenarios, rather to actual current usage. In the most optimistic projections of Bitcoin replacing all existing currencies, the price per unit can easily surpass $10M of today’s USD. A price of $5000 per bitcoin represents a chance of 0.05% of this happening, which I think is not completely far-fetched.

Mr. Herzog: I actually don’t think that there is a specific right value for Bitcoin because the value of Bitcoin is basically a speculation. It’s the current sentiment of the people that are interested in or trading with Bitcoin regarding the future of that particular cryptocurrency in relation to the evolving blockchain landscape, such as what role will Bitcoin play, how big will it be, how fast it will get there. I think these are wild speculations and the potential is unprecedented because we are talking about a product that can compete with money itself as a solution for commerce. So you can expect any kind of jump in prices at any point. I think it’s important to mention that even though it is volatile and it has been very volatile throughout its lifetime, the long-term direction is quite clear.

I remember many people talking about the stock market in the same way, that even though it may be volatile and may drop from time to time, the overall long-term prospects are very positive. So I think that this is a similar situation and I believe that in the long term, cryptocurrencies will continue to gain in value, while it is unlikely to predict any specific one.

Mr. Beigel: The previous year and this year as well:) I actually believe Bitcoin is undervalued. I think that if we want Bitcoin to serve as some sort of reserve currency then its price should be much higher than what it is at the moment.

Ms. Torteman: There’s clearly a lot of interest in the crypto world, reflected by the continuing rise of the bitcoin value. We think that bitcoin and other cryptocurrencies high volatility of prices represents some of the challenges these currencies are facing, caused first due to the regulatory uncertainty, the differentiation of governments acceptance, and due to the entrance of many “non-crypto community” newcomers, which don’t necessarily hold a thorough understanding and hence are much more influenced by any external developments.

Mr. Assia: The big players are still on the fence, most of them have not invested in cryptocurrencies yet. Since the supply of Bitcoin is limited, and there are still very big pockets that have not started buying yet, I think we are still in the early days of cryptocurrencies and we won’t see the full value for a long time.

ICO’s are a legitimate new way to raise funds and its popularity increases significantly during 2017 &2018, what do you think is the correct way to approach ICO’s? Should it be regulated?

Mr. Rosenfeld: I believe things should only be regulated as little as possible – but that said, the current trends in ICOs clearly highlight the problems that regulation was intended to solve, and what can happen in its absence. There are 3 key problems we can identify:

Investors in ICOs don’t get actual company stock (which provides well-defined rights and benefits), but rather tokens of questionable long-term value.

The ICO market is bubbling, and funds raised by companies are an order of magnitude higher than appropriate.

ICOs are marketed to innocent laymen, who are unable to discern the above two problems and are tempted to invest indiscriminately, fueling the bubble.

To become legitimate, ICOs will need to start offering company shares instead of tokens, be more transparent, and set sane limits on the funds raised.

Mr. Herzog: Token Generation Events are providing an amazing new solution for an innovative project, and in a digital format and liquid format, we’ve never seen before. It’s like comparing the printing press to the Internet. Similarly to above, the regulations that are in place today did not have this specific technological environment in mind, and so will likely undergo evolution to be effective for this new reality. Until we get there, it would be great if the industry could self-regulate in order to help both participants and regulators find the best path forward.

Mr. Beigel: Definitely. At the moment the ICO market is a complete disaster in my opinion. People are investing their money only because of hype and probably less than 5% are actually doing their due diligence as they should be.

Too many people are taking advantage of this situation and the lack of knowledge about cryptocurrencies to make a quick buck. I really hope the ICO mania calms down because a lot of people are going to lose their money the way it currently looks.

Ms. Torteman: 2017 was indeed the breakthrough year of the ICOs with investments raising over $3 billion USD, compared to $300m the previous year (the sums reflects the value at the issuing). 2018 is a continuation of the trend. ICOs are interesting vehicles as they enable monetization to open code initiatives and consist another complementary element to the “blockchain philosophy” by serving as a token that represents some kind of value. ICOs defiantly represent an aspect of the consolidating “New Economy” as a new investment vehicle which expends and innovate the existing fundraising methods, and its effects have the potential to influence and innovate traditional methods as well.

We in Deloitte IL see the cryptocurrencies evolution as part of an economic and social development and operate to assist ICO enterprises with the standard business establishment of their operations. We currently accompany multiple ICOs initiatives of Startups, Tech companies, and VCs with diverse professional business services such as Accounting, Taxation, Business strategy and more. Similar to other new technological developments, it takes some time for the market and for institutions to understand the advantages and disadvantages and to react accordingly. We believe that given the continuously growing volumes of ICOs it is essential to define standardization for the process and to make sure certain concrete criteria regarding the commercial, technological and financial details of the new ICO, as well as its potentials investors, are well defined. Regulation can also assist in preventing frauds and hacker’s thefts, and in preventing potential money laundering. Until the process will be standardized, potential investors interested in entering an ICO should carefully study the company and its product, and conduct sufficient due diligence before entering.

Mr. Assia: ICO’s are an innovative platform to raise funds for companies but before one decides whether they want to invest, they should perform an appropriate level of due diligence so they are comfortable with the investment. I believe that in the medium-long term, regulators will find an adequate balance between innovation and protecting investors, in a way that enables innovative models to grow to disrupt obsolete areas in the financial services.

Bitcoin’s community suffered many divisions and conflicts so far. Do you support one decentralized Bitcoin currency or the notion of other Bitcoins (Bitcoin Cash, Bitcoin Gold, etc) as well?

I do strongly prefer that there will be one currency, and right now I prefer it to be according to the vision of the Bitcoin Core team. But I recognize the fact that other people disagree, and I believe that if we find ourselves unable to reconcile these disagreements, splitting the currency is a healthy thing to do, with each of the forks have the right to coexist peacefully with the others.

Mr. Herzog: I believe that having multiple currencies used by different groups using different technologies and trying different ideas in different models is actually a good thing. I think this is how evolution occurs faster when various groups try multiple different options to see which ones work best. So I’m not a big fan of this monolithic model of one single currency in the middle. I don’t think it works as well. I think that what we’re seeing with Bitcoin is actually a leadership challenge.

There are different interested groups and those interests are pulling Bitcoin in different directions. And I think it’s very hard to make a progress or make important decisions to move forward quickly in this way. Now, given that cryptocurrencies and blockchains are very young technologies, I think we still have a very long way to go, and a lot of improvement to make in order for these to be useful for the average person. So I do think it’s really the best thing that can happen that several hard forks will lead to several diverse teams compete with different approaches.

Mr. Beigel: In general, I support the market, and the market at the moment shows support for Bitcoin Core. Also, after reading quite a lot about the matter, I believe that the Bitcoin Core team are the most capable team to lead Bitcoin forward.

There are many who criticize Bitcoin as a tool that can create frauds, what is your opinion about that and what would be the best way to prevent it in the future?

Mr. Rosenfeld: Bitcoin is actually much less suitable for illegitimate uses than is commonly believed. Its pseudonymity strikes a good balance between a degree of privacy, and the ability to spend resources on tracking any suspected illegal activity.

In any case, Bitcoin-related crime should be condemned and fought just like any other kind of crime. Like any technology, Bitcoin can be used for a lot of good but also for evil. It is rarely a good idea to write a technology off just because of the latter and “throw the baby out with the bathwater”.

Mr. Herzog: I think that there is definitely a risk of people using Bitcoin for unsavory tasks or purposes. We’ve seen it used for ransom and other activities which are illegal in many places. And I believe that the same thing was said about the internet in the beginning, that people might use it to connect terrorist cells, defraud people or other unwanted behaviors. And of course all of these things did and do happen on the Internet, and yet, generally people would likely still prefer the risks than losing the benefits of having this technology. While it’s easy for us to think about all the negative things that a new technology can bring, it’s actually harder for us to realize and envision all of the positive things it can bring as well. It is likely that eventually, we will be much more appreciative of the benefits blockchain technology is bringing to society, than the inevitable risks.

Mr. Beigel: I find it amusing how people blame Bitcoin for fraud. It’s like saying that dollars create bank robberies. People who make such claims seem to be affected by the FUD (fear, uncertainty, and doubt) created by the media instead of thinking for themselves.

Sure, Bitcoin can be used for paying a ransom, but so can Euros, British pounds, and Dollars. You don’t see anyone banning those currencies. Having said that, there are 2 main ways to make Bitcoin safer for the public:

Continued development of the Bitcoin protocol and Bitcoin services that make it easier and safer to use Bitcoin.

Market education – The internet wasn’t safe back in 1994 and isn’t a safe place today. However today, people are more educated about the risks involved in the online activity. The same will happen for Bitcoin, I’m sure of it.

Mr. Assia: I don’t think Bitcoin creates more fraud than other segments of the financial sector. People have learned to abuse every invention that humanity has created since the dawn of history, but it didn’t prevent humanity from keeping on innovating. I believe that as long as the Bitcoin community grows, and more people and institutions are getting involved, regulators will create a clear regulatory framework that will strengthen the ecosystem and minimize fraud.

Regulation has continued to be main the main catalyst for cryptocurrencies’ legality and price fluctuations. China, Japan, Russia, South Korea and other leading economies are the driving force of cryptocurrencies regulation. How can you evaluate the current situation? Can you vision a global regulation of cryptocurrencies?

Mr. Beigel: At the moment it’s hard to assess since each country is acting on its own accord. You don’t see countries “copying” regulations of one another. In the end, I do believe some sort of main guidelines will emerge since the world is moving toward globalization of taxation but it won’t happen in the next year or so, it’s just too soon. At the moment each country is dealing with itself with how Bitcoin and other cryptocurrencies are disrupting their own sovereignty.

Mr. Assia: Governments across the world are looking into how cryptocurrencies are affecting consumers and the best ways to regulate them. The recent G20 summit suggests that some international cooperation is possible, but it’s too early to say whether a global regulatory framework is on the cards. Ultimately we are supportive of appropriate regulation for cryptocurrencies, both to protect customers and help secure the long-term future of the industry.

Mr. Herzog: There seems to be more clarity in some of the jurisdictions such as Switzerland and Singapore, where we can see the industry thriving. I believe that it is a matter of time until more jurisdictions will recognize the potential of the technology and embrace it. The less welcoming jurisdictions will experience talent drain and slower economic growth. It’s pretty clear that if a country would choose to block the internet 20 years ago, it would have a devastating effect on its economy. Banning blockchain technology would probably result in an even worse setback for any country that chose to do so.

Mr. Rosenfeld: Over the next few years I expect to see countries adopting Bitcoin and cryptocurrencies in general as part of their existing regulatory frameworks. Since those differ by country, each will have its own approach to Bitcoin, we will not see a global “one size fits all” treatment. It might take a decade or more to construct entirely new frameworks specially tailored to this new innovation. Progress in regulation can definitely boost mainstream adoption while making it difficult to abuse the technology for criminal purposes.

How do you see the crypto world evolution in the future?

Mr. Herzog: I think that the first killer app of cryptocurrencies was Bitcoin, a decentralized, permissionless private currency. Unfortunately, the best feature of Bitcoin also challenges its brand, because if you have a permissionless, private currency then it works best for things that are unpermitted or that you would like to keep private. For other things, credit cards actually work better. They have significant advantages such as they are safer, easier to protect, harder to steal and more accessible to most people. The next killer app we’ve seen develop is crowdfunding, specifically on Ethereum, thanks to smart contracts. I believe that we will continue to see growth here and the attraction of new entrepreneurs, investors, technologists, and participants to space as a result. From there, the next big innovation will emerge.

Mr. Beigel: 2018 is going to be super exciting. I think we will witness Bitcoin’s transition from the early adopters to the early majority, governments will start taking a stand on cryptocurrencies and hopefully, cryptocurrencies will become more dominant in everyday transactions.

Mr. Assia: It has been a breakthrough year for cryptocurrencies and I see this continuing in 2018. The crypto markets will get more mature, innovation will rise along with new internal and external regulation, which will help create a more stable market. In addition, we will experience the first government to POC blockchain technology in the core technology of the financial services. It will no doubt be a fascinating market for cryptocurrencies.

Mr. Rosenfeld: Over the next few years, we should see steady growth in all parameters – more businesses accepting Bitcoin, more startups developing new blockchain applications, more users, more regulatory clarity, more academic research, and of course a higher exchange rate.

In 20 years, I expect that when you go to any shop in the world, you’ll be sure that it accepts Bitcoin.

In 30 years, when you go to a shop, you won’t be sure that it accepts the local currency.

Ms. Torteman: We believe that we are standing in the middle of one of the most interesting technological developments of the past decade. The blockchain is to value, what the internet is for information. It is an enabler, applicable to diverse industries. We see cryptocurrencies as representing the first wave of the technology, where the big potential for cross industries adaptation across different use cases will be DLT based. We predict that we will see in the coming years more industries continuing to explore and adopt blockchain based solutions. Organizations will further continue to explore scenarios in which blockchain could reinvent parts of their operations, value chains, business models and even products, and will continue to invest resources and to discover how blockchain could help bring new efficiencies to costly, slow, or unreliable transactions, and to introduce new models for partnership and collaboration. Business, government, and society are built on trust. As such, any promise to use modern computing principles to transform how we achieve and apply trust is indeed, disruptive.