The Team Fortress 2
Blog announces the release of a new Source SDK on
Steam that includes some
of the .vmf source files for official TF2 maps, and stating that more map & model
sources will be included in future updates. They say: "This is something we've
wanted to do for a while, especially as we've been growing the range of game
modes in TF. Here's the list of maps that are included in the update:
Lumberyard, Ravine, Badlands, Dustbowl, Granary, Gravelpit, 2Fort, Badwater,
Goldrush, and Hydro." Also, a new
Steam client update is
now automatically available.

Actually, Blues story came from the TF2 blog because they wanted to mentioned the release of the maps...the official news release was via the HLDS, and the Steam news site which I linked to, which provides the full release notes for the SDK.

I recall Tripwire stating that when they were making the Red Orchestra mod, they were very limited in what they could change as the the full SDK was NOT available to them, with much of it left inaccessible by Epic.

This has to do with the design of the Unreal engines. Epic does provide basically all of the gameplay source code to its games. What it doesn't provide to mod authors is the source code to the engine, and that is what Tripwire was commenting on. But, almost no one outside of id does that, and even id only does it for its old games (Quake 3 and before). Valve has never given out any of its engine source code unless you count the code stolen and distributed by the hacker in 2003.

But this is really not much different than Valve limiting what users can change in the Source SDK when it comes to specific titles.

Yes, it is very much different. Valve doesn't provide even the gameplay source code to its games in its SDK. That is why it is referred to as a "Source" SDK and not one for specific games. The code for the specific games is not provided. Valve does provide example multiplayer and single-player gameplay source code in the SDK which can be used to build games for it, but it basically amounts to the gameplay source code to the single-player version of Half-Life 2 and to Half-Life 2: Deathmatch. That is why so many HL2 mods are just deathmatch recreations with no bots or are built upon the source code from previous incarnations of the mod for HL1. It's relatively hard to make a new mod like TF2 which is substantially different using only the example source code from the SDK. Just look how long it took Valve to so it, and it is still at it. In contrast while the Unreal engine with its virtual machine is a much different architecture than the Source engine, Epic provides all of the gameplay source code for the virtual machine to UT3 with the game. So, mod creators can build upon Epic's work in the game to make their mods. So, if they want to add some weapons, vehicles, or change some of the rules to warforce mode for instance, they can do that with the provided source code. They don't have to start with a blank slate or with just the deathmatch source code. And, the Unreal engine is flexible enough that if they want to make a mod which is quite different from UT3, they can do that as well. Checkout the Make Something Unreal contest winners for some examples.

Maybe you should learn to read. Nowhere does it say this is a TF2 SDK.

You are arguing semantics. First, the news post comes on the official TF2 blog. Second, my point was that This should also piss off TF2 developers because this is not a real SDK. There is no source code to the game in this so-called "SDK." The phrase "TF2 SDK" is irrelevant to that. What matters is the contents of the SDK or in this case the lack thereof. It is not a real SDK for TF2, and there should be one.

As was already noted by someone else, the Source SDK applies to all the Source engine games,

I never disputed that as unlike you I knew full well what is in the SDK and what isn't.

allowing mod authors to do what they want.

I have never disputed that either. Mod authors can technically recreate TF2 or any of Valve's games if they choose and have the tremendous knowledge, time, and resources to do so. But, in truth it's a question of practicality, and it isn't practical for them to attempt it. That is why I pointed out all of the real SDK's for those other games in my first post in this thread. Contrast what they provide versus what Valve doesn't, and see who has a real SDK and who comes up short. Only a fanboy like your would take exception to that comparison (and you did).

One last point to add. I recall Tripwire stating that when they were making the Red Orchestra mod, they were very limited in what they could change as the the full SDK was NOT available to them, with much of it left inaccessible by Epic.

I'm not sure on the state of the UT3 SDK as I don't follow the UT3 modding scene. But this is really not much different than Valve limiting what users can change in the Source SDK when it comes to specific titles.

This should also piss off TF2 developers because this is not a real SDK. There is no source code to the game in this so-called "SDK." Valve doesn't even provide the unencrypted weapon definition files. The TF2 "SDK" is nothing but a map and model editing kit.

Maybe you should learn to read. Nowhere does it say this is a TF2 SDK.

Considering the sheer number of HL2 and other Source engine mods that are available, this is yet another claim that has no merit.

Learn to read. I am not talking about source engine mods in general. I am talking specifically about mods for Valve's multiplayer games especially TF2 and its lack of a real SDK (which if you knew how to read, you would know is the subject of this thread).

Again...if it's so difficult and Valve is so mod unfriendly, then why are there so many user mods based on the Source engine?

But, none for games like TF2 and L4D. It's because no one wants to have to go to the tremendous trouble to remake those games when they just want to make some additions or changes to them. It took Valve's professional programmers years to make them, and modders don't get to benefit from that code because Valve doesn't let them have it.

Having hundreds or thousands of servers all running various gameplay altering mods is hardly conducive of "higher quality"

Learn to read. What the statement you quoted means is that it greatly lessens the incentive to create and release substantial and high-quality mods like The Ship for free because Valve will sell them on Steam instead.

If someone does want to make small gameplay altering mods, that ability is still there. The various CSS and DoDs gameplay mode servers are proof of this.

No thanks to Valve. Those minor mods are only possible because of user-created, reverse-engineered hacks like the Metamod which hook into the source engine. And, there are real limits to what can be accomplished through such hacks.

Wrong. Independent developers sell their "mods" on Steam.

You are arguing semantics there. The point is that the mods are being sold (and Valve is profiting from it) instead of being given away for free as in the past.

Good for you. Doesn't make Valves methods wrong.

That does make them bad or inferior by comparison. And, it's not just good for me. It's good for all Unreal Tournament customers.

Epic and it's "Make Something Unreal" partners were nowhere to be found then, were they?

Epic and its partners paid at least in part for Red Orchestra's development with both the free Unreal engine license and the prize money. Without them there would have been no full game. Plus, neither Epic nor its partners like Nvidia and Intel are game publishers so of course they didn't publish the full game. However, Tripwire did have a publisher, Destineer, as the game was sold at retail and not just on Steam.

The price of the Unreal engine is far overpriced for those that do not win the contest.

No, it hasn't been when you consider the large number of budget games have been made with the various incarnations of the Unreal engine. Independent developers made those games. Groove Games has published more than a handful of them.

Valve's methods allow those Indie developers to use the Source engine and sell over Steam, but for a greater percentage of profits going to Valve rather than a hefty engine license fee.

That re-enforces my complaint that Valve's restrictions and policies with regards to mods are done to enrich itself at the expense of its customers getting high-quality mods for free. This greatly reduces the incentive to create and release mods for free when Valve and the mod creators can financially benefit by selling them instead.

As mentioned above, the sheer number of Source engine mods available nullifies your claims that they are somehow prohibiting or limiting free mods.

That nullifies nothing because you are wrong on two counts. First, those source engine mods aren't official HL2 content. The statement you quoted referred to Valve not mod authors. So, despite your attempt to obfuscate the issue, it is certainly true that Valve has released the two episodes for sale but no free additional content for Half-Life 2. Second, you obviously haven't read or understood the rest of my post because if you had you would know that I did not claim that Valve is limiting or preventing all free source engine mods. What I do claim and what is true is that Valve prevents and limit mods of its own multiplayer games like TF2 by not releasing a real SDK for them, and Valve discourages the free release of high-quality, substantial mods of its games by selling them on Steam instead.

Portal has a ton of user made maps. That's all Portal needs.

Valve obviously thinks Portal needs something extra as it is making a sequel for sale rather than releasing free content for it.

Regardless, there has been mod/mods released enabling the Portal gun in HL2.

Those mods don't enable the portal gun in HL2. The modders recreated the gun themselves with their own source code added it to Half-Life 2. And, all that really proves is just how limited and easy to create Portal was. Also, those mods are not official game content from Valve.

But according to you, Valve has limited the mod creators from releasing modified Portal content...again, wrong.

Again, you are wrong because those are not mods of Portal. They are recreations for Half-Life 2. And, they would have been easier to do if the modders had the Portal source code.

As already mentioned, Tripwire has 2 Unreal engine games that were formerly mods for sale on Steam. They could not get a publisher, and had great success releasing on Steam. Epic and it's "Make Something Unreal" partners were nowhere to be found then, were they?

The price of the Unreal engine is far overpriced for those that do not win the contest. Valve's methods allow those Indie developers to use the Source engine and sell over Steam, but for a greater percentage of profits going to Valve rather than a hefty engine license fee.

With the next contest ending, let's see if those are considered mistakes to be learned from.The stuff currently on the website is really cool.

Nothing if you are a game developer or publisher who hates freedom of choice, loss of control, and wants to make it much harder for your customers to make and receive free content for your games so as to not undermine the sales of your products or your control over them.

Considering the sheer number of HL2 and other Source engine mods that are available, this is yet another claim that has no merit. There is no point in me posting mods sites with links to everything available as any monkey can use Google "half-life 2 mods" to get the facts.

However if you were a mod author or aspiring to be, you'd already know exactly what is wrong with that.

Again...if it's so difficult and Valve is so mod unfriendly, then why are there so many user mods based on the Source engine?

t's bad for users when it eliminates or lessens the number of free game mods especially substantial ones of higher quality.

Having hundreds or thousands of servers all running various gameplay altering mods is hardly conducive of "higher quality", only quantity. The method being used by Valve is conducive of higher quality mods. If someone does want to make small gameplay altering mods, that ability is still there. The various CSS and DoDs gameplay mode servers are proof of this.

Today Valve sells mods through Steam when it can get away with it.

Wrong. Independent developers sell their "mods" on Steam. Not everything comes at a price, only a select few. Tripwire, is one of them. Red Orchestra, Killing Floor, both based on the Unreal engine...

I much prefer the way Epic handles this issue with mods.

Good for you. Doesn't make Valves methods wrong.

Some of the winners also get the opportunity to release improved versions of their mods for sale as games in the future like Red Orchestra and Damnation. This way users don't lose out on substantial free content and mod creators get a financial reward.

As already mentioned, Tripwire has 2 Unreal engine games that were formerly mods for sale on Steam. They could not get a publisher, and had great success releasing on Steam. Epic and it's "Make Something Unreal" partners were nowhere to be found then, were they?

The price of the Unreal engine is far overpriced for those that do not win the contest. Valve's methods allow those Indie developers to use the Source engine and sell over Steam, but for a greater percentage of profits going to Valve rather than a hefty engine license fee.

Half-Life 2 has had two episodes for sale rather than free expansions or content

As mentioned above, the sheer number of Source engine mods available nullifies your claims that they are somehow prohibiting or limiting free mods.

Portal has had no free official content added to it and is instead getting a sequel

Portal has a ton of user made maps. That's all Portal needs. Regardless, there has been mod/mods released enabling the Portal gun in HL2. But according to you, Valve has limited the mod creators from releasing modified Portal content...again, wrong.

Nothing if you are a game developer or publisher who hates freedom of choice, loss of control, and wants to make it much harder for your customers to make and receive free content for your games so as to not undermine the sales of your products or your control over them. However if you were a mod author or aspiring to be, you'd already know exactly what is wrong with that.

So your claim is it's a bad thing indie developers have a platform to sell their creations?

It's bad for users when it eliminates or lessens the number of free game mods especially substantial ones of higher quality. In the past those mods and similar one were free. Today Valve sells mods through Steam when it can get away with it. I much prefer the way Epic handles this issue with mods. It and the partners it solicits sponsor the "Make Something Unreal" contest which pays cash and other prizes (but mostly cash) to the entrants. This gives modders a financial incentive to create mods and rewards the best of them financially for their work while at the same time providing the game's customers with lots of professional quality mods and game content for free. If you look at the winning "Make Something Unreal" entrants, you will find that most of them either work in the game industry now (for smaller developers or as contractors) or did soon afterwards. Some of the winners also get the opportunity to release improved versions of their mods for sale as games in the future like Red Orchestra and Damnation. This way users don't lose out on substantial free content and mod creators get a financial reward.

Considering they haven't done so with Half-Life 2, Portal, TF2, CSS or DoDs

Yes, Valve has. Half-Life 2 has had two episodes for sale rather than free expansions or content (other than Lost Coast which is nothing but a tech demo with a few minutes of derivative gameplay), and Portal has had no free official content added to it and is instead getting a sequel (which likely won't be much content given how little was in the first one). As for those multiplayer games they still sell as-is so Valve hasn't had to worry as much about cashing in on sequels yet.

That's just your hateful, biased perception.

This isn't hate or bias. I am simply dispelling the myths about Valve which get repeatedly spouted in forums like this one when I see them.

So long as they have the tremendous time and talent to reinvent the wheel or make it all themselves.

What's wrong with that? As I and someone else already pointed out...weeds out the hundreds of basic gameplay changing mods that would be released fragmenting the community. You might disagree, but 10's of thousands of people seem to agree that Valve's focus is in the right place. Why don't you just leave it at that and move on instead of harping about it in every thread?

Yes, so it can sell them on Steam like The Ship, Garry's Mod, and Zeno Clash.

So your claim is it's a bad thing indie developers have a platform to sell their creations?

No, Valve mainly does it to prevent mods of those games that so it can sell its users sequels like L4D2 with marginal improvements and additional content instead of having modders expand existing games with the same or similar additions for free.

That's just your hateful, biased perception. Not everyone agrees with you. You can certainly make that accusation with regards to L4D2, but just because you say it, doesn't make it fact. Considering they haven't done so with Half-Life 2, Portal, TF2, CSS or DoDs, your accusation is only 1 for 6. Hardly gives your claim any merit based on their past actions.

------

At one point someone had shown something to suggest you worked for Monolith. If this is actually true, is it really in your best interest to continually spread hate and bash a company and service that is trying to help you sell your product?

So long as they have the tremendous time and talent to reinvent the wheel or make it all themselves.

Valves goal is to get more original mods available

Yes, so it can sell them on Steam like The Ship, Garry's Mod, and Zeno Clash.

which would just fragment the community.

No, Valve mainly does it to prevent mods of those games that so it can sell its users sequels like L4D2 with marginal improvements and additional content instead of having modders expand existing games with the same or similar additions for free.

I would not doubt that Valve is very concerned that mods of TF2 would fragment the community. The sad thing is that they are probably right.

We have a winner!

The capabilities are there for a mod team to make whatever they want.

Valves goal is to get more original mods available, not hundreds of half-assed gameplay mods to their games, which would just fragment the community. They learned that lesson from Epic and the UT modifiers. As much as you want to claim how great Epic's methods are, fact is their community from UT2K3, UT2K4 and UT3 with all the modifiers (not to mention game modes) is fragmented to hell and back.

Valve cares more about its own control over its games and users than it it does for its users.

This is probably closer to the truth, at least as far as TF2 is concerned. I would not doubt that Valve is very concerned that mods of TF2 would fragment the community. The sad thing is that they are probably right.

While Valve should provide a real SDK if it actually gave a damn about mod development and its gaming community, no, it doesn't owe its customers an SDK. The complaint I have is that Valve should stop calling its "SDK" for TF2 an SDK because it isn't one, and Valve's customers and even fanboys like you should stop excusing that deception and omission.

but whining about it won't do shit. How about trying to get Valve's reasoning

I agree that complaining won't change it because Valve doesn't actually care about its mod community. The notion that it does is a myth. And, I already know Valve's reasoning. Valve cares more about its own control over its games and users than it it does for its users. But, that doesn't make it right.

You're a damn idiot. The SDK that is available is for the Source engine, which TF2, HL2 and L4D all share. If any mod team wants to build a TC for that engine they have everything they need.

You're a damn idiot as you obviously didn't understand a thing that I wrote and have never actually used the Source SDK. There is no source code to TF2 in it or CS:S, DOD:S, or L4D for that matter. A mod team therefore does not have everything it needs to build a mod for TF2, CS:S, DOD:S, or L4D which is my point. Yes, if you want to build a completely different game, like a TC, there is some basic example multiplayer and single-player source code in it, but that was not what I complained about now is it?

Holy shit GT, calm down. Valve doesn't owe you an SDK. I agree it sucks that you can't get the code you want, but whining about it won't do shit. How about trying to get Valve's reasoning on this instead of pretending they owe you anything =P