Controversy: Is the SLS AMG faster than the 458 Italia stock for stock?

A debate has been raging on the BenzBoost forums and we decided it was finally time to put together information on these two cars to help sort out the video below. There are three races and the SLS gets the jump in the first two. In the first race the SLS is lined up ahead and gets on the gas first pulling. In the second video a mix-up in the honks has the SLS jump again leading the 458 to have to run it down which it can not. The third race is the cleanest with the SLS still pulling away and rather quickly.

Now, this has led to people from each side yelling and screaming at each other. Here is what we know, the SLS dyno's more on a dynojet stock. There are variables involved of course but based on the graphs we have thus far the 458 baselines around 450 wheel and the SLS around 488 wheel. Advantage, SLS.

This may help explain why the 458 Italia gets a better elapsed time in the 1/4 mile versus the SLS stock for stock. It's rear engine launch is also a large factor helping it get off the line better. Going back to Road and Track, the numbers are 11.0@128.5 versus 11.6@124.3 for the Italia and SLS respectively. 0-120 numbers favor the Italia by 1.2 second stock for stock, not a small difference.

Shift speed has been stated to favor the 458 with the SLS at 100ms to its 40ms. This disparity seems too large for the same technology from the same supplier, Getrag. As a matter of fact, they are basically the same unit. So is there really that large of a disparity here? We don't think so.

So how do you explain the outcome of the video? The only explanation is that the SLS is not stock. Logically, this is the only conclusion one can reach to explain how the SLS leaves the 458 the way it does. The weight is not as large of a factor once the cars are moving but even so we should see the 458 slowly pull not the SLS jumping out and destroying the 458. A stock SLS simply is not capable of it based on the data presented here. The stock claims are likely misleading and for SLS owners to boast. This is why we prefer track numbers for support but even without them a video can still be broken down. If we are incorrect, someone do this same race with two stock cars and prove us wrong. One thing is certain, both are fast cars and examples of some of the best vehicles available today.

How is the video you posted any different ? Your video is of a roll on race, same as the Jaguar videos. How do you explain the Jaguar videos ??

GTboard.com are not always honest when it comes to racing and listing the mods on the cars they test. Just like the orange Balboni that killed the Stock SLS. The Balboni had evotech tune and exhaust mod. It was featured in the Moscow unlimited 500 race

GTboard.com are not always honest when it comes to racing and listing the mods on the cars they test. Just like the orange Balboni that killed the Stock SLS. The Balboni had evotech tune and exhaust mod. It was featured in the Moscow unlimited 500 race

Balboni ? No clue what that is and it's only one example - the GTboard had multiple races with the same outcome(s). I still think the SLS from the OP was tuned.

Actually, the Ferrari was not tuned, it was stock and on 20" stock tires. It ran 11.0 to 11.2 almost all night long. I know the owner personally so it wasn't just any stranger. His 458 did have some type of light-weight package from the factory though....which the other 458 did not have. The other 458 was running 11.3 to 11.5 all night long (and it also was stock). I think what helps them on the launch is that the engine rests on the rear axles providing a little better grip.

Usually, an 11.0 second 1/4 mile run is not too difficult for a stock 458 Italia though. In good weather and the right launch, they should be able to hit flat 11s. Here are a couple of magazine tests showing very close results in the 1/4 mile as well: 11.0, 11.1, and 11.2

Actually, the Ferrari was not tuned, it was stock and on 20" stock tires. It ran 11.0 to 11.2 almost all night long. I know the owner personally so it wasn't just any stranger. His 458 did have some type of light-weight package from the factory though....which the other 458 did not have. The other 458 was running 11.3 to 11.5 all night long (and it also was stock). I think what helps them on the launch is that the engine rests on the rear axles providing a little better grip.

Usually, an 11.0 second 1/4 mile run is not too difficult for a stock 458 Italia though. In good weather and the right launch, they should be able to hit flat 11s. Here are a couple of magazine tests showing very close results in the 1/4 mile as well: 11.0, 11.1, and 11.2

Thanks for the informative post. You have good evidence to back up your claim .I have never seen a 458 in person tap less than 11.8 arond here. Anyway, I do believe a 458 outpreforms the SLS in th 1/4 mile. However, the top end belongs to the gullwing. There is another Mbworld member (I started this thread @ mbworld on the SLS forums as well), who also raced a 458 italia and overtook it.

Thanks for the informative post. You have good evidence to back up your claim .I have never seen a 458 in person tap less than 11.8 arond here. Anyway, I do believe a 458 outpreforms the SLS in th 1/4 mile. However, the top end belongs to the gullwing. There is another Mbworld member (I started this thread @ mbworld on the SLS forums as well), who also raced a 458 italia and overtook it.

Please remember that I do NOT believe that all stock Ferrari 458 Italia's can "easily" hit 11.0 in the 1/4 mile. I know the standard 458 Italia will probably hit 11.3 to 11.5 fairly easily, and in good weather, maybe even 11.2. However, I do believe that there are a few stock ones that can "easily" hit 11.0 to 11.2; more specifically, the ones that come equipped with the super light rims and additional carbon fiber parts (do not know the name of those packages); I heard someone referring to them as the $50k packages :shocked:, and although it does not particularly add any power to the engine, it does shed some good weight which frees up a few ponies at the wheels.

Anyway, I do believe a 458 outpreforms the SLS in th 1/4 mile. However, the top end belongs to the gullwing. There is another Mbworld member (I started this thread @ mbworld on the SLS forums as well), who also raced a 458 italia and overtook it.

While I don't doubt your statement about the SLS overtaking the Ferrari at very high speeds (as I haven't seen much comparisons), it made me think why exactly does that happen? I'm not arguing but just looking for a good discussion. It seems to me that:

1) Both engines make about the same amount of power (speaking in terms of US rating): 565 hp but one of them is 6.2L while the other is 4.5L
2) The Ferrari is lighter: 458 Italia weights around 3300 lbs while the SLS weights 3600 lbs
3) The Ferrari seems lower and more aerodynamic.

While I don't doubt your statement about the SLS overtaking the Ferrari at very high speeds (as I haven't seen much comparisons), it made me think why exactly does that happen? I'm not arguing but just looking for a good discussion. It seems to me that:

1) Both engines make about the same amount of power (speaking in terms of US rating): 565 hp but one of them is 6.2L while the other is 4.5L
2) The Ferrari is lighter: 458 Italia weights around 3300 lbs while the SLS weights 3600 lbs
3) The Ferrari seems lower and more aerodynamic.

SLS .36 drag coefficient Drag Coefficient

458 .33 drag coefficient Drag Coefficient

458 is slipperier but not buy much and it also has more downforce which hurts it at higher speeds. But that still doesn't explain the Jaguar videos previously posted.

The curb weight which Ferrari advertises, is not with a driver and no spare tire. If you add those two up the Ferrari's weight comes close to the SLS.
Also the SLS has +100Nm of torque higher than the 458. Alot of people forget about torque when it comes to racing.

the dry weight is actually 3100 LBS (1390Kg) as advertised by Ferrari. Their curb weight is 3300 LBS (1495Kg), which does not comply with the Curb Weight of European Union (EU). Non-EU curb weight is the car's full wight with fluids and fuel. EU Curb Weight includes a 75Kg driver.

So if we add 75Kg to the Ferrari's Non EU Curb Weight it becomes 1570Kg which is 50Kg away from the SLS. The 458 has 110Nm of torques less than the less. That 50Kg less weight will not help it at a street race from roll on.

The curb weight which Ferrari advertises, is not with a driver and no spare tire. If you add those two up the Ferrari's weight comes close to the SLS.
Also the SLS has +100Nm of torque higher than the 458. Alot of people forget about torque when it comes to racing.

It's torque that wins races

Torque does not win races. Just because carroll shelby (bless him) said this does not make this true. Total horsepower under the HP or torque curve divided by weight wins races.

Torque is a force - and has no relationship to time or work. A 200lb man can stand on a 100 foot pole attached to a bolt and create 20,000 lb-ft of torque - that doesn't mean anything, because we are missing a component (how fast can he turn it?)... This is where horsepower comes in. Horsepower is derived from torque; torque without any speed means nothing.

Think of a diesel car - like the 335d with tons of torque. It's not faster than a 335i simply because it has 125 more lb-ft of torque, right? No, it has less area underneath the power curve - and with similar weight, will lose in a race given enough distance.

Torque does not win races. Just because carroll shelby (bless him) said this does not make this true. Total horsepower under the HP or torque curve divided by weight wins races.

Torque is a force - and has no relationship to time or work. A 200lb man can stand on a 100 foot pole attached to a bolt and create 20,000 lb-ft of torque - that doesn't mean anything, because we are missing a component (how fast can he turn it?)... This is where horsepower comes in. Horsepower is derived from torque; torque without any speed means nothing.

Think of a diesel car - like the 335d with tons of torque. It's not faster than a 335i simply because it has 125 more lb-ft of torque, right? No, it has less area underneath the power curve - and with similar weight, will lose in a race given enough distance.

Great explanation above, repped.
FINALLY someone who gets it. Torque gets you rolling but it's HP that wins races especially when they are from a roll when the rolling resistance is no longer a factor. I don't know why so many people don't understand this - especially these guys who are so big into roll on racing. When you are revving a car out to redline racing over a distance it's the HP that is most important as you wind through each gear. F1 cars are a perfect example of this. Very little torque yet they make lots of power at high rpms. I'm sure some of these "roll on racing" experts will tell us that a car with twice the torque of a F1 car will be faster in a straight line LOL.

Torque does not win races. Just because carroll shelby (bless him) said this does not make this true. Total horsepower under the HP or torque curve divided by weight wins races.

Torque is a force - and has no relationship to time or work. A 200lb man can stand on a 100 foot pole attached to a bolt and create 20,000 lb-ft of torque - that doesn't mean anything, because we are missing a component (how fast can he turn it?)... This is where horsepower comes in. Horsepower is derived from torque; torque without any speed means nothing.

Think of a diesel car - like the 335d with tons of torque. It's not faster than a 335i simply because it has 125 more lb-ft of torque, right? No, it has less area underneath the power curve - and with similar weight, will lose in a race given enough distance.

However, I do believe that there are a few stock ones that can "easily" hit 11.0 to 11.2; more specifically, the ones that come equipped with the super light rims and additional carbon fiber parts (do not know the name of those packages); I heard someone referring to them as the $50k packages :shocked:

Mo, i'm not aware of such package. What you are describing is Scuderia, but it will hit the market next year.

Great explanation above, repped.
FINALLY someone who gets it. Torque gets you rolling but it's HP that wins races especially when they are from a roll when the rolling resistance is no longer a factor. I don't know why so many people don't understand this - especially these guys who are so big into roll on racing. When you are revving a car out to redline racing over a distance it's the HP that is most important as you wind through each gear. F1 cars are a perfect example of this. Very little torque yet they make lots of power at high rpms. I'm sure some of these "roll on racing" experts will tell us that a car with twice the torque of a F1 car will be faster in a straight line LOL.