The full story...

Retiring Archbishop laments 'individualistic' society

TONY EASTLEY: The Anglican Archishop of Sydney, Dr Peter Jensen, has made his last address to the Anglican Synod before his retirement.

He's been in the job for 11 years and held sometimes controversial views on gay marriage and the role of women in society.

In his address, Dr Jensen used his hour-long speech to decry the modern cult of "malign individualism", which he said had corroded the family, faith and community.

I spoke to him earlier this morning.

Dr Jensen good morning. In your last presidential speech you railed a bit about modern society and how you're upset that there was too much individualism. What did you mean by that and what are the dangers posed by modern society?

PETER JENSEN: Well I've isolated individualism Tony because the effects of it are all around us. Psychiatrists for example refer to the way in which people are simply not sick, they are lonely, and we can see in the breakdown of marriage relationships, family relationships, and the way in which so many people are living on their own, our choice has been to live in a sense for ourselves, to take all the advantages of the modern world and to live that way, but we have no committed ourselves to the relationships which are the very stuff of life.

TONY EASTLEY: How have we gone in that particular direction?

PETER JENSEN: Well partly because of technological mastery, where we seem to not need each other as much as we used to and that's just a fact of modern life.

TONY EASTLEY: You mention technology - aren't we more these days, more interconnected than ever before?

PETER JENSEN: No I think that's a myth. The sort of interconnections we're talking about. I mean yes and no - obviously at one level we are, with Facebook, Twitter et cetera, but these are spurious interconnections and people are finding who are using them, it's narcissistic, you're not actually getting to relate to people, you're missing out on all the signs of being with another person, all the sort of visual signs we have.

And there are deep issues here. I'm not against these things in themselves, but if they take the place of real relationships then we're in for a bit of a hairy ride.

TONY EASTLEY: Is politics in part to blame, because political leaders pander to the individuals and what-is-in-it-for-me type attitude?

PETER JENSEN: No I think that overstates how important politics is. The problem is not politics or politicians, it's us. In the old days we used to belong to running clubs, we now go running on our own. I always think that's a sort of parable of what's happening here.

TONY EASTLEY: You are, if you like, the president of that running club that you talk about. Why are the people not running with you?

PETER JENSEN: Well that's a bit of a myth too if I may say so.

TONY EASTLEY: Well they're not running as much as they used to. Is your club still doing quite well?

PETER JENSEN: Yes thankyou. Yes, our numbers are increasing. More people are coming to church, it's not vast but we've added 7 per cent of our people over the last decade. What we're trying to do is meeting the needs of people.

Let me put it this way. When I go to our local churches, I meet people from a cross section of the community. It's rare to do that these days. I meet people who've got significant needs.

TONY EASTLEY: Do you think you may alienate some members of the community by the very strong views that the church holds on various issues.

PETER JENSEN: Well I hope so - I'm not here to be popular. Strong views, if put in the right way, in a civil way and a courteous way I think, are necessary in our community and yes it alienates some people but it draws other people in as they recognise that what we're standing for is the love of God and love of neighbour.

TONY EASTLEY: Does that extend to asylum seekers as well?

PETER JENSEN: Yes. I'm cautious here because I can see that the difficulties - it's easy to criticise politicians isn't it, when you're not actually doing it yourself, but we certainly need, as a community, to act with love towards those who come amongst us, however they arrive and to make sure that we treat them both with justice and love.

We don't always succeed in doing that.

TONY EASTLEY: You say you wish you'd done more to do it - what prevented you from speaking out at a time when it would have been more timely?

PETER JENSEN: Well I have from time to time of course, it's not always reported and I have visited the jails but there are so many other calls on your time that you do what you can when you can. I'm sorry I didn't give more time to this one in particular.

TONY EASTLEY: And if I could take you back to that asylum issue, does that mean you would have spoken or you should have spoken out earlier about say, for instance, offshore processing?

PETER JENSEN: Well I did on the very first day I became Archbishop, this was a subject for discussion which was widely reported. On the offshore processing one, once again, we need to be careful not to do the politicians' job for them.

They're faced with a very difficult circumstance. As far as I can see both sides of politics are trying to do the right thing in saving human lives.

Now wether they've got the right method or not is another matter, but they are trying to do the right thing, and it's not easy to see what best to do.

Now offshore processing may be such a way but I have to say that if we're going to do that, it has to be done with love and justice and I'm not sure it is or has been in previous times.

TONY EASTLEY: And as a community leader, you believe you could have taken a greater role in that at the time?

PETER JENSEN: Among other things, there's quite a number of things about which, looking back, you'd say, “oh I wish I'd said more about that” and that I guess was one of them.

TONY EASTLEY: You railed against the song I Did it My Way being used at funerals, what are they going to use at yours?

PETER JENSEN: I'm hoping that we have a great Charles Wesley hymn which talks about Jesus. I'm hoping at my funeral we're not going to talk about me, I'm hoping we're going to talk about Jesus. I have no hope, I'm a sinner like the rest of humankind, I have no hope before the judgement seat except Jesus Christ, he is my hope and so therefore in my funeral, I hope we talk a lot about Jesus and not so much about me.

From the Archives

Around 500 Indigenous people fought in the First World War, and as many as 5,000 in the second. But many Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander diggers who made it home received little or no recognition for their contribution. On Anzac Day, 2007, the first parade to commemorate their efforts and bravery was held in Sydney. Listen to our report from that day by Lindy Kerin.