A Charmless "Threshold" with Virtual Desktops?

Power users rejoice: If recent rumors are true—and I'm told they are reliable in this case—then the next major version of Windows, currently codenamed "Threshold," will give you a lot to smile about. Microsoft is apparently removing Charms, one of the most reviled Windows 8 features, from the OS. And it is also—finally—adding a virtual desktop feature to the OS.

Each of these rumors originated from different blogs. But both have been confirmed by Mary Jo Foley's sources—sorry, I'm a bit disconnected this week—so I'll accept them as fact. And as noted, both are cause for celebration in their own right.

Charms no more

According to a report in WinBeta, Threshold will further Microsoft's efforts to make Windows once again more natural for users with traditional, non-touch PCs. And one of the ways it will do so is by removing the Charms from at least those versions of Windows that work with such PCs. WinBeta says it is not sure how or if this will impact Windows on tablets, but Mary Jo's sources stated that Charms "will be going away completely for all desktop, laptop and tablet users with Threshold." Folks, the Charms are dead.

Of course, this does lead to some questions about how we'll access some of the system-wide functionality that is currently exposed by the Charms. If I were a betting man, I'd guess that Microsoft is working on something consistent that will work between both Windows and Windows Phone. But Mary Jo says that Modern apps in Threshold will now display a standard title bar that will include menus with Charms components listed. Developers will be free to add a Share option, as you see now in Windows Phone.

Virtual desktop

While NT-based versions of Windows have in fact support virtual desktop functionality for years, Microsoft never built the feature into the OS because it was afraid that users would "lose" running applications on hidden desktops. So while rival desktop OSes like Linux and, more recently, Mac OS X have embraced this functionality, Windows has had to make do with third party or add-on solutions like Sysinternals Desktops (which, as I noted on Windows Weekly last night was written by Mark Russinovich). It works fine in Windows 8.1 as you can see here:

According to the reliable Brad Sams over at Neowin, however, Microsoft has finally gotten over its reticence and will add virtual desktops directly to the next version of Windows. This feature "is said to have similar functionality to that of Ubuntu," Sams notes. "You can activate the desktops with a button on the taskbar (subject to change) and there are keyboard shortcuts that let you jump between active desktops." Actually, that's exactly how Desktops works too (see above).

Mary Jo has confirmed this report as well: Virtual desktops will be included with Threshold.

Discuss this Article 67

I've only ever used the Charms bar for setting background themes on metro, AND, for Settings> Power Off. For search, I select my browser (desktop and metro) type away. Devices I've never bothered with.

Either way, I think the original idea (see a Jensen Harris Video somewhere) of Left/Right boundaries for System, Top/Bottom for the app, is sort of falling by the wayside.

Microsoft may as well give it a total overhaul. I googled Ubuntu's flavour of Virtual Desktop, nice, quite nice. I hope Microsoft can improve it.

I'm not a bitter man either but I'm quite worried by the disappearance of the Charms. Indeed, I'd think system-wide features need to be centralized some more rather than being left to developers and their apps. The Charms, while imperfect when using a mouse is much better with keyboard shortcuts and near perfect with touch.
Gee, most of the more virulent Windows 8 opponents didn't complain about the Charms bar in touch mode and just fought the idea in desktop mode.

Anyway, in a mobile-first world this is bad news IMO because the Charms are great with touch. Now, it may be harder to access stuff and I'm not sure how they can improve the touch UI without it.

Instead, I'd have expected more system-wide features added to the Charm bar. A better way to activate it when in desktop mode...
I would also have expected the Start Screen to be developed with more customization options like in providing us with a solution to drop any tile whereever we want as it is the case with Windows Phone.

The thing is MS is making two steps backward after one step forward (coming from them, this is not very surprising) not because Windows 8.x 's UI has been poorly designed but because they did a terrible job at demonstrating why it is superior and failed to teach users how to use it right. Sad.

I use the keyboard shortcut for the search charm in a custom action for my Microsoft touch mouse. I've really gotten used to just two-finger swiping up to search. Hopefully at least the keyboard shortcuts to the functionality remain.

Me too. Charms are great for touch. Unless they are only referring to the "share"charm, which seemed inconsistent in everyday use. When 8.1 removed the option to share to onenote, I think I stopped using that feature for anything but printing.

You say that as if Microsoft is one big unified entity. The group in charge of Windows now is completely different than the group that originally designed these.

I neither loved nor hated the Charms. I think they're handy when I'm using my surface tablet as a tablet. When I'm working in the desktop, they kind of get in the way. As long as there is a reasonably well thought out alternative, I'll be happy.

What does concern me a little is that almost all of the changes that are being made recently seem to be to accommodate people who use the desktop exclusively (or ALMOST exclusively.). While I think that's absolutely necessary, I would also like to see the modern interface improved as well.

To my knowledge, Windows is still supposed to be an OS that supports both traditional devices and modern touch devices. I would like to see Microsoft evolve both user experiences rather than just devolve the current version into Windows 7. Don't get me wrong, I love Windows 7, but I already bought that years ago.

I want the new Windows to allow me to use my desktop as a desktop, but I don't want it to try to turn my tablet into one.

I like the charms bar also and have never had a problem using it with any input method. Eliminating the charms bar may make sense, however, taken in the context that MS is rethinking the start process. Hopefully whatever new process they come up with will work well with a mouse and with touch, although I though the charms did that just fine.

I'm in two minds about the loss of charms. I think they are annoying to control using a mouse, however with touch they make a lot of sense. Windows 8 for tablets lacks any other easy way to perform a universal search. And printing and sharing from a consistent location just makes sense.

I think the best solution would be to replace charms on tablets with a notification centre of sorts, which would swipe in from the right side of the screen and (similar to the windows phone version) show both quick settings and notifications.

For desktop users, any of the required functions from the charms bar could be added to the tray, along with a notification centre that pops up from the tray to deal with notifications from metro apps (which will now be running in windows on the desktop).

I think any solution that doesn't involve some other easy way to access print, settings and share is inadequate and will be a big step backwards for tablet users. And as windows products both big and small continue to merge, the importance of having a notification centre in tablet windows 8 cannot be underestimated.

The thing I worry about is Microsoft will go totally off the whole Modern/classic desktop Gui and create a Windows ecosystem of Windows 7, Win 8 and Win 9 which will be so different that software makers will have a hard time developing for all 3. This to me is the worst scenario of course but you could very well have such a difference in all three operating systems that Microsoft has ever had. At least when Windows 7 was introduced to replace Vista, it was not any real Gui change. It was more about speeding up the OS and reducing annoying security prompts. If Windows 9 is a dramatic reversal of Windows 8 re invention of Windows. It could hurt more then help anything.

Charms aren't that bad, they are just hard to bring up with a mouse. Personally I'd just change it so that there's a settings button to the right of the clock on the desktop that brings up the charms (instead of hovering in the top right corner and hoping they appear). Once it's easy to activate there shouldn't be the issues there are now, and indeed they could then add even more options to it.

While they are at it they should merge the taskbar with the metro task-switcher, having two ways to see and move between running apps is confusing.

I always thought the charms, power and logoff/login buttons should have been placed at the bottom of the metro task switcher right above the start button. With one motion to the lower left and drag up you would have quick access to everything. Same if you swiped in from the left. Only one new muscle memory to develop instead of three and on big screens, a lot less mouse movement.

I think the charms functionality was a good idea poorly implemented. It was probably ok for touch (I have limited experience here) but with the desktop, it was too easy to activate accidentally while scrolling, which people do all the time. I don't have a scroll wheel on my trackball and even if I did, not all apps/websites work properly.

They could naturally move to the start screen, since that is where the power and user options are. BUT then the start screen is going away, eh?

I'm excited by Microsoft finally shuffling the deck with the decade old Windows 95 design, and that's a big reason I was excited by Windows 8. So far, we haven't seen very much refinement in the UI for desktop scenarios, so this is a big step in the right direction. Even if I personally don't use virtual desktops, it's good to see MS rethinking things.

Hopefully they'll bring back floating shortcut bars or have a modern desktop equivalent.

I agree - poor for non-touch but makes sense for touch. I use Win8 tablets daily and found I really like the Charms bar over. (I am now used to using the Charms on my non-touch desktop, either by mouse or WIN+C key combo).

Hopefully they will make improvements that make the non-touch UI more 'modern' but still keep useful UI features like the Charms bar (or make it better) on tabletss

I never understood why they just didn't add a little tab sticking out you could click with your mouse to open charms. Seems like a simple fix. I guess throwing babies out with bathwater is all the rage at MS now.

I know one thing. They need to stabilize Windows FAST. You cant ask customers to learn a new GUI every year. End users and developers will tire of this and move on.

I don't work in retail, but I've "sold" many Windows tablets by demonstrating how quickly you can swipe with your thumb to change volume, brightness, wifi, notifications, and more. Compared to iPad's method of digging through apps and settings, the Settings charm is the most elegant feature, and it really sells users on the tablet. I'm shocked they are going to get rid of such easy universal access to system settings.

Mixed feelings on the charms ... but of course virtual desktops will be welcome. On desktop I can almost see why they might need to re-engineer it because it can be a little clunky with a mouse, but on my Surface it's fine. Here's hoping whatever solution they come up with is something I (we) can adapt to.

I too will miss them but on the other hand I do like the way it is handled on my Nokia Icon.... I think it would be nice to see it the same on both, whichever way that turns out to be...The charms really are magically delicious!.... Sorry couldn't resist

I think the charms are great on touch albeit a little tough to discover. Once you know they're there and what they do it's gravy. That said, it's horrible for desktop/mouse users. When using the desktop app, it would be great if I could right click on an image, document or link and in the context menu would be the OS share charm. They kind of have that already with "Send To" but that's not open to application developers as far as I know.

It is. A lot of apps over the years have added to the list of choices that appear under the Send To submenu. The problem is that only a small percentage have ever gotten in the habit of using it. I know it's there but 9 out of 10 times, if I want a desktop shortcut, I drag the item there using the right mouse button so that the context menu appears at the destination to choose between copy, move, and shortcut.

It's kind of like the Briefcase that appeared on the desktop for a few generations of Windows. It was never widely understood what it did and how to use it, so it was largely ignored and even removed.

I guess I'll jump in here too, and state that I really like the Charms Bar. I use it all of the time on my RT and desktop. I've become quite used to it on both, and have no issue initializing it on the desktop, although it did take a little muscle training.
Hopefully MS leaves the functionality, but implements it in a way that hopefully makes sense, and pleases the masses, if that's possible.
Reading tech articles, and the resulting comments sections on articles about Windows 8, WP 8, I get the feeling that there is some secret club that has agreed to bombard all of these articles and slam the hell out of anything MS does. Kidding of course, but damn!
I get that MS has made some missteps with this OS version, but it really is nowhere near as bad as so many are making it out to be. It simply seems to be the trendy thing to do: Slam MS and their products, whether you've used them or not.

Wow, virtual desktops. Haven't heard about those in years. Maybe I should reinstall some of those replacement shells (litestep, hoverdesk?, desktopX) and relive 2003! Wait, I thought the desktop was supposed to be going away ;) but instead we're getting the ability to have more of them? Either way, color me excited.

I'm cautiously optimistic about Windows 9 because of changes like this. I also really like the Charms Bar on my Surface. On my desktop it's alright, but is pretty clumsy for use with a mouse. I think with the undeniable disaster that Windows 8 has been, they'll now be able to pull of a modern OS, with all the benefits of an app store and cloud-powered convenience, but without it being the mess that Windows 8 was. I'm one of the people who has stuck with Microsoft's solutions (Windows, Windows Phone, OneDrive, etc.) and bought into Windows 8… but I do understand now how flawed it was and difficult to understand for most users.

One thing that frustrates me, though, is how much everyone's been focusing so much on the start menu and windowed apps. While necessary and useful, those are just reverting Windows back to what it was. Windows 9 will hopefully go far beyond that. Wed the desktop and Metro interfaces so that they're not even two separate things anymore - the desktop should be able to access things like the share contract. Updated system icons are long overdue. There are other things if you're imaginative, which is exactly what the Windows team needs to be, and I think the virtual desktops and Cortana integration are great steps in that direction. Plus the modern part of Windows is supposedly being merged with Windows Phone. With a strong marketing message there's a lot of potential for Microsoft to have a fresh start and not only get past the negativity, but convince the general public that they're exciting and worth looking at.

Public don't care if they keep pushing Desktop side. Consumers are already moving to tablets and touch stuff. It's clear that business will follow since people will demand same experience as they use in home. That was reason why Windows gained it status in companies and that is reason why it will crumble in future.

It comes down to the central complaint of Windows 8 for existing users: having touch features jammed into the desktop space with no configurability options. If Windows 8 had been released with a 'classic' mode it would have avoid so much bad PR. Remember how XP could be easily made to look like the simpler Windows 2000 with a single check box in a control panel? Having that fallbck mode in Win8 would probably have been worth $2 or $3 billion in sales to a more accepting public.

On a tablet the charms bar is a clever GUI element but just plain irritating for a desktop setup when it shows up when not desired and mainly does stuff the desktop user already knows how to do. (Or was never going to learn in any case.)

In my fantasy alternate reality, Microsoft would ship the Surface RT with Windows RT but delays producing a x86 Windows 8 until it has the needed elements to make it acceptable to existing desktop users. A Service Pack for Windows 7 to update the code base and introduce some new features could be released, laying the ground work for what would eventually be released as Windows 8.

I rarely comment when I'm annoyed about something that Microsoft is doing, but this one makes me groan. I didn't know that the charms were an ongoing painpoint that needed to be eliminated, but here it is. The awful part for me is that I've finally gotten all but one member of my stuck-in-its-ways family understanding the design of Win8. My mom was the biggest challenge of them all, and now I don't know what to expect. I hope it's a logical evolution that she can understand "Oh, this used to be the charms" or something.

I'm not concerned because I like the charms (I do) because I will learn the new way and adapt, but it is not so easy with all the people I've gotten to move to Win8.

There was no way I was going to subject myself to the hell of trying to teach my parents to use Windows 8.
Windows 8 always had a temporary feel about it anyway, so I didn't see the point in teaching them.
The Windows 9 UI developers need to have a "Bring your mother to work day". If their mothers can use Windows 9 anyone will be able to use it.

I had honestly forgotten that the charms even existed since 8.1 made it easier to shut down your computer.

Even for tablets this seems like a good change. Windows phone shows you a search button if you can search (or share, or whatever) rather than expecting you to remember which charms work in different apps.

Finally...Microsoft is using its collective "head" and once again striving to make Windows a compelling PC operating system. There are tons of things that can be done that would be interesting and exciting--new file systems, improvements to the DX API, virtual desktops--the sky is the limit, actually. When Microsoft does a new OS these are the kinds of improvements people expect to see--under the hood, basic feature additions, etc. This is the kind of strategy that drives the industry and makes genuine innovation possible. The either-or people are wrong once again, but that was always expected to be the case--it was never going to be "either" touchscreen devices "or" PCs. PCs won the mainstream long ago, but touchscreen devices have their place, too.

I turned off my charms bar long ago (an option under the Classic Shell start menu) but as a sort of experiment I left my access to the start page unhindered (Windows key) just to see if I might actually use it along with the start menu. I didn't use the start page at all (because I had no need to do so.) It's so much better on a desktop to be able to access every file on the box from *one* desktop "page." Including search. Programs like Device Manager or Control panel are either short-cuts on my desktop or single-click taskbar pins. There's no functionality exposed by charms that cannot be exposed on the current 8.1 desktop (or even the Win7 desktop, for that matter)--and that's the beauty of Windows. Empower your users with options and choices and let *them* choose how to do things for themselves--it's the "Windows way."

Hopefully, Microsoft will reserve "Metro" for touch-screen devices only--that's what it is made for! For touch, Metro is the ticket, but it's an abomination on the desktop. There was never any chance at all that these highly limited (compared to a PC), proprietary devices would usurp the PC's role in the scheme of things. Now that Microsoft seems to have gotten copying Apple out of its "system," I'm really looking forward to what they can bring to the table...! I'll wager there is no shortage of great ideas just waiting in the wings.

No to the touch only thing for Modern UI. I normally stay away from Modern UI on my desk machine, but occasionally I need to go there to handle tasks that I'll carry over to my tablets. It needs to still be available. Power Users would understand.

I kind of see what you mean, except that so far with Metro I haven't seen anything that isn't also served by an explorer.exe UI element. Indeed, there are many functions under 8.1 that are strictly explorer.exe with no Metro UI counterparts/parallels available at all, so even on a touch tablet the user is forced back into explorer.exe to accomplish certain tasks. Metro is specifically suited to touch, obviously (huge text, tons of wasted screen space that has to be assigned to touch functionality, etc.)--and as such is specifically unsuited for "power use" (it isn't clear what you mean by that) on the desktop w/mouse and keyboard. It's a matter of opinion and personal preference, of course, but generally I find that everything to do with Metro, including Metro apps, is strictly lightweight software pretty much unrelated to "power use" on a desktop...;)

But, as long as Microsoft configures Metro as a UI *option* for Windows that can be completely ignored if a user so wants, I'll be content. I expect to also see continuing improvements in the explorer.exe elements, as well, as Microsoft moves ahead.

I don't mind the charms bar, but Paul had an interesting comment with trying to unify the UI between Windows and Windows Phone. IMO, a perfect (and more user-accepted) replacement for the charms bar would be the notification center that's already in Windows Phone.

That was well implemented and provides quick access to certain settings. With the larger screen area that Windows occupies, it would be easy to stick "Share" and other such buttons in there too. Makes perfect sense to me.

In addition, there is already a desktop equivalent of this, called "Action Center," that is available in the notification area. Desktop users wouldn't need to learn anything different. Or you could even stick stuff like this is a modified start menu, since they've decided to bring that back.

Oh goody. Now I will likely have a half inch tall title bar on metro apps because it needs to be touch friendly, because there are actually touch screens out there. Surface anyone? The charms work just fine on a touch screen/tablet. Granted, not so much on the desktop, or with mouse and keyboard. So make it smart enough to know what you have, or are using, or let me configure it. Quit throwing things at the wall.

The removal of charms doesn't do anything for me. I don't use them on the desktop, and they don't get in the way. I've install Classic Shell and it's got them turned off. So why would this bug a REAL power user like me? I just don't get it. Seems power users these days are really not that good as they used to be...

And virtual desktops? Again, something easily obtained with 3rd party software. Why is Microsoft spinning it's wheels on this instead of fixing other REAL problems? I personally have never found virtual anything to be better than the real thing, so I use 3 real monitors on my desk machine. Virtual desktops have limited usability IMHO. I never found the "hide and seek" world of virtual desktops that much fun.

I would like to see virtual desktops treated like modern apps in terms of navigation. Win+Tab to switch between them. Pin each separate desktop to Start Screen/MiniStart/Taskbar. Maybe even snap multiple desktops side-by-side.

As usual MS responds to bad press by going too far and not sticking to their original design ideas. Doesn't makes sense for desktop but I use if everyday on my Win8 tablet.

You swipe up on iOS to get to some settings. Makes sense to me. Why is Charms so silly on a tablet? On WindowsWeekly, Charms were dumped on but it was really just from a desktop point of view. I agree with this. However, comments on WW seemed to ignore Charms on a tablet. Yes it was mentioned. This is similar to the bad press/comments on Win8. It is a 'disaster' is the common statement. But it works on a tablet. Very few ever make that distinction.

Count me as another who is sad to see the Charms bar go. It works great on touch-based tablets and laptops (I use it all the time on my touch screen laptop), and only needs a minor tweak or two to work well with the mouse on non-touch-screen desktops. With this change and the addition of the stupid Start Menu that apparently many think they just have to have, this feels like a step backwards to me. I really hate to see Microsoft going this route. Instead, they should be thinking forward on how to merge the aspects of modern and desktop together, but still keep the advantages of both when working exclusively in one or the other.

IMHO, they should move as many control panel like settings as possible to the modern interface. I would find it easier to use that way -- both with mouse and touch.

I personally don't find using the modern interface any harder to use on a mouse-based system than the desktop. In some ways, it's easier, as the larger buttons mean easier targets to click, requiring less precise mouse movements and thus are less tiring. People complain of having to move the mouse further. What are they talking about? I've never noticed it. And when on the Start Screen, or using the Bing news apps, etc, the scroll wheel works wonders in moving horizontally through the tiles and pages. It actually takes LESS movement of the mouse to find the app / page to launch that it does on the stupid start menu, with its tiny scrolling lists, scroll buttons, etc. It's more taxing having to precisely land on a small scroll item than it is to move the mouse a bit further between targets.

I installed Start8 for a while, but found I could get along just fine without it, and subsequently got rid of it, and have not missed it since.

Personally, I hope they allow us to continue to use the Charms bar and the Start Screen as they currently exist. They work just fine on a mouse-based desktop (well, the Charms bar does need an easier way to be popped up with the mouse, and it getting in the way sometimes when going from one screen to another in a dual screen setup needs some tweaking).

I really don't get why people are hating on the new modern approach. I guess there are a lot of people who simply resist change no matter what. So they drag the rest of along with them. I wish instead, Microsoft would further refine the new modern look, and flesh it out better. That was its only true failing -- that the new suite of modern apps was unfinished at best, and stinking bad at worse. They've gotten better over time.

I really hope they fold some of the new Win 8 Runtime features into desktop apps, start making them look and act more the same, without losing the advantages of desktop apps.

I never got the "jarring" experience people are always complaining about when switching between the desktop and the modern side. There is simply nothing wrong with having two modes of operation on a single computer. They serve two different purposes. It's like having two machines in one machine, which to me is a nice advantage.

And I have to shake my head at the praising of the announcement of adding virtual desktops. Wait, what? Won't that lead to a "jarring" experience as people switch from one desktop to another? How is this not "jarring", but switching to a modern app somehow is? When I go to the modern side, it IS like another desktop -- a different place to work with a different mode of operation, one that suits itself to browsing, entertainment, etc. And that's even on a mouse based desktop machine.

I have to disagree on the virtual desktops. I think for basic users who only have an internet window with a few tabs this feature will be irrelevant, and hopefully Microsoft will make it easy to ignore or even turn off.

For the power user this enables resizing of multiple windows to fit the screen whilst still allowing the user to switch between groups of windows conveniently. People worry about 'losing' apps, but all open apps will still appear on the taskbar.

Switching between modern and desktop UIs was a completely different story because the whole UI was different. That meant that people had to switch from using the taskbar to app switch, from using file>print to charms bar devices>print, from resizing windows to snapping apps. IMO it was jarring because of the inconsistencies in UI not because apps were open in a different 'desktop' or space.

I've often argued that the problem with windows 8 is that it addresses the problem of putting the same OS on multiple form factors in the wrong way. Instead of sticking 2 different UI's for 2 different form factors on the same device and expecting users to adapt, they should have put only a touch optimised UI or only a mouse/keyboard optimised UI on that device, with the same underlying code, apps and APIs across all devices. These are the problems threshold is solving by enabling modern apps on the desktop and removing charms (though some of its function needs to remain for touch devices - perhaps in a notification centre). And finally the desktop is not being ignored any more and is getting feature improvements of its own like virtual desktops.

I always found the degree of precision with which a mouse user needed to hit the exact corner to bring up the charms was annoying. They should have made the target a bit wider, is all.

And so far as touch is concerned, I still hate having to hit tiny little bullet squares with a big fat fingertip. It's funny they couldn't improve the smartness of the screen and magically enlarge those tiny little boxes when your fingertip gets nearby.

In many ways, I think touch is over-rated: it often involves too much arm movement to perform a simple task which is much better handled by rescaling the touch surface to the size of a typical touchpad. Fortunately, we already have that, but 'full scale' touch is not that smart on anything much larger than a phone, IMO.

I'm getting worried. Seems like they're just caving to the brain dead desktop users and giving up on producing an OS that can win share of the tablet and mobile market. If MS can't play in that space, they are as good as dead. It is only a matter of time before Android takes the Enterprise market from them. The billions of young Android device users won't have any loyalty toward Windows because they will have had zero exposure to it.

It seems like eliminating charms, which work well for tablet use, and adding the useless virtual desktop feature is just pandering to the boo birds. I'm hoping they surprise us with something clever. Otherwise, it just feels like putting lipstick on a pig.

I love my SP1. Had been waiting to try the i7 SP3 before purchasing. Now I'm thinking I should wait for Threshold to see if I will still enjoy using the SP in tablet mode after the changes we're hearing about.

I guess I just don't get it. I really don't see why people are making such a big deal about the charms. In desktop mode, I almost never accidentally open a charm. Even if I did, it wouldn't be a big deal. I guess I don't understand people who complain about things you don't even have to experience, like the Modern UI. And still less than 10% of the so-called power users I've ever spoken have been able to explain why they just have to have the start menu. Most I've come in contact with and barely backup their complains about Windows 8

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