In the 2011 class, RR/Hoke brought in Countess and Taylor, who have both proven to be quality players on the field with a lot of eligibility left. If Norfleet stays at corner, that makes four Rivals top-250 players at the position in the 2012 and 2013 classes.

This is easily the best we've recruited at that position in the recruiting ranking era.

that i think has not been talked about enough is the lack of any bright points from the 2012 freshman class except at line backer.

with the kind of fanfare the 2012 recruiting class came in ...i expected much better things...i know they are just freshman ...and give them time ...and blah blah....but overall i was dissapointed by the 2012 class till now (except the lb ers)

Who here has said that Michigan is great right now, and who has shown an inability to come to terms with that? Here's what I've seen so far:

You say you're disappointed in the 2012 recruiting class (linebackers excepted), because they didn't have much of an on-field impact.

You detailed why you were disappointed (you somehow expected a kid, 1 year removed from high school, to perform at Ndamukong Suh levels).

Everybody else explained that your expectations are way off base and you need to chill out a little bit.

Nobody claimed that Michigan is great or expressed an inability to come to terms with that fact. In fact, it seems like everyone (besides you) understands that this team is still under construction, and that to expect true freshmen to come in and make an impact is setting yourself up for disappointment.

You're an idiot with incredibly unrealistic expectations. Go back to MLive.

Edit: Also, you realize Pipkins is a DT, right? It's rare for interior linemen to get sacks. How many DTs can you name who had more than 2 sacks for the season (regardless of whether they were "highlight reel" material or not)? I'll hang up and listen.

How can you even say that when 9-10 of them saw the field this year and Bolden, Pipkins, Funchess, Ross, Ojemudia all saw very good time for freshman and they all played very well. Kalis could have played but it didnt make sense to burn his redshirt. Then you see a few players that are on the Lines which is extremely tough to play as a freshman. Clark and Wilson were sposed to replace Kovacs and Gordon....absolutly not.

Seriously, this is silly. The guys you mentioned played a lot, two of the top rated players in that class were OL, and four of them total, so you can't expect them to contribute much, AJ Williams saw a lot of the field, and Chris Wormley tore his ACL and didn't have a chance to contribute. How many guys from one class can you really expect to play in their true frosh year?

Give the kid a break, WolvinLA2. He was supposed to be in bed two hours before he posted that comment. The little fella was plum tuckered out, and I for one, enjoy hearing the perspective of Wolverine fans in middle school.

To support your point, Alabama had only 4 true freshmen on their two-deep: Amari Cooper, TJ Yeldon, Denzel Devall, and Geno Smith. Cooper was the only starter, and none of them were offensive or defensive linemen.

I (although not a recruiting expert by any stretch) was more reassured after Green's performance @ the AA Bowl more than anything. I thought his film wasn't overwhelming for a 5 star, top-in-the-country RB. However, he did pretty damn well in a setting that seems to favor the defense more than the offense. And he did a whole lot better than Ty Issac did.

Green seems more like a bruiser RB than someone who is going to break away from the second level like some of the Michigan RBs of old (Wheatley, Biakabatuka)

I like Deveon Smith too! But as you should know Green is a must with only one runningback in this class and 2 last year both 3 stars. green is a must for us and with the addition of smith to put us right back where we need to be for Michigan hard nose football

I don't know the kid, but he doesn't seem like he's really sought out a ton of attention, and he also said that he's going to announce his decision by keeping it quiet and calling each of the team's coaches. I like Taylor Lewan, but he's enjoyed being in the spotlight every step of the way.

Thanks for the clarification. I was under the impression that he was making a special "announcement" after reading only the commentary here. In my mind, I envisioned local TV or radio coverage, a full HS gym, etc.

I suppose, in this day and age, any high-level athlete (even one who doesn't like it) is going to get attention no matter how hard he tries to aviod it.

When David recommitted. This would just be gravy, and not even the awesome kind. I know we won't get him, but I'd rather be surprised over the next couple of weeks by landing Rueben Foster or someone of that caliber. I'd also love for the Lions to win a Super Bowl and for Chappelle Show to come back on the air. Am I really asking for that much?

i think what has happened as a fan base is we have become complacent and apologetic...

we have gotten used to mediocrity and greatness is something we dont demand. we need to change ....in our dreams we keep trying to push mediocrity to greatness ...but it falls down eventually...time to call apples as apples

We need to start beating Ohio regularly and putting up 10 win seasons like we used to. Until we get back to doing that, all this talk about recruits and what ifs will be just that - talk. Our fan base is too arrogant to admit this, but right now we are Little Brother and Ohio is Big Brother. It wasn't always like this and it will hopefully change in the future, but until it does we have to accept the facts - we are not as good as we think we are.

Personally, I'm hoping that Meyer and Crew get busted sooner rather than later for the SEC-esque recruiting practices many of us suspect they're up to. Of course, since the NCAA has done nothing to bust the most obvious offenders in the SEC, I doubt they'll be looking to drop the hammer on Ohio anytime soon.

Dear Lord I hate that team. No wonder why my blood pressure is so high.

They soundly beat us like 7 years in a row - I think we all were fully admitting it. I wouldn't call it little brother simply because that would imply at least a modicum of positive feeling towards them.

Sorry but wtf are you talking about. We went 11-2 last year and 8-5 this year which averages out to 9.5-3.5 which is very close to the average of 10 wins per season. In that span we went .500 against our rivals and won a bcs game and have recruited at as high a level as we ever have. We did all of this with a depleted roster. I don't have diminished long run expectations for the team but sometimes you have to think rationally about what's actually possible.

The last 2 seasons have definitely been an improvement, but we are not where we need to be yet as a program. The OP I was responding to had his comment hidden, so maybe my post read a bit out of context. Yeah, we "averaged" close to 10 wins because of 2011, but we still haven't won a significant game on the road during that time and we have yet to see how we'll perform on a recurring basis against an Urban Meyer run Ohio program. Losing to them this year was not a good way to get things started, obviously.

Just so we're clear, I like Hoke and believe in what he's trying to do but the relative mediocrity we've been mired in goes all the way back to 2004/2005 at this point. Ohio has been consistently better than us as a football program since that time, both in terms of on field results and recruiting. I was there at Michigan when we were having similar success against Ohio in the 90's. Eventually it got to the point where we always expected to find a way to win that game, and in the rare instances when we lost we still found something positive to take away from it ("Cooper's contract just got extended - awesome!") and assumed we'd win the following year.

Ohio is in that same position now thanks to the years of Tressel and RichRod. Even when they finally lost to us in 2011, they could rationalize that we were finally due, the game was in Ann Arbor and their team was in total flux at the time. And despite all that, they still almost won the game, then turned around the next day and hired Urban Meyer who proceeded to salvage/assemble a Top 10 recruiting class in less than 2 months.

When you get to that kind of position in the rivalry like where Ohio's at now....where every recruit we lose to them, every time their coach opens his disingenuous mouth on camera, every time we lose to them in football, basketball or checkers.....it gets under our skin and causes us to lose all perspective, that's how you know we've reached the Big Brother-Little Brother stage of this relationship.

Because when we were winning our fair share of games against them, the fear factor and paranoia around everything Ohio does was not like this. We knew we couldn't win them all, but we definitely felt good about our chances and didn't question our strength as a program relative to those bastards.

I think more Michigan fans need to accept and understand this is the reality of the situation in 2013, and that until we get back to consistently performing at the level we used to regularly do, we are going to have to deal with being the Little Brother. I hate it, it sucks, bit it is what it is.

Hopefully, Hoke's recruits turn out to be as strong on the field as they appear to be on paper, and that these more talented players are able to play for Hoke with the same level of passion and effort that their less talented predecessors from the 2008-2011 classes have done over the last 2 years. IF all that happens, we should be ok longer-term, but we are not there yet.

This is all fair, but what more would you have the coaching staff do? Clearly they are recruiting as quickly as they can. I don't doubt that we'll be back in elite form sooner rather than later. We're not where we need/want to be but that's really no fault of the current staff.

It's just more general venting, than anything else. My complaint is not with Hoke or the current staff, but rather the collective Michigan football program of the past decade. I do think that with Urban Meyer entrenched in Columbus, we will have to make a choice at some point in order to effectively compete:

1. Do we change our recruiting strategy and academic standards to make Michigan more appealing to the five star recruits from the South? ( Less of a concern if Meyer struggles to bring a number of these guys to Columbus but if business picks up for him with those type of recruits it will put us in a tough spot)

or

2. Does Brandon give Hoke 5-6 years to see if he can turn the tide against Ohio and if not, go for broke and try for Harbaugh again even if it means screwing over Hoke? I really hope this doesn't happen. But if we're going 9-3 every year while Ohio is going 11-1, will the Natives grow restless? Harbaugh is the only guy in the Michigan family who has the "IT" factor and national-level credibility that Meyer has. My hope is that Hoke is able to get things to an even playing field with Ohio. I feel he would have had no problem doing so against past Ohio coaches like Tressel, Cooper and Bruce. But Ohio's never had anyone like Meyer before. Most Big 10 schools don't have anyone in their coaching tree like Meyer, but Michigan does - the question is whether or not we'd feel compelled to try to land him once he finishes his run in SF.

Based on SAT scores for our football team, I think it is safe to say that many of our scholarship athletes in the football program are already being admitted with much lower academics than the typical student.

As for giving Hoke time, Hoke has had to use players that he didn't recruit, many of which just didn't have the level of talent Michigan has formerly enjoyed with its football players. In a couple of years, the talent should be in place. At that time, if we go 9-3 every year and Ohio goes 11-1 and they continue to dominate in head to head, yeah, that will be a problem.

Are you suggesting Michigan has higher acadmeic standards for elite football recruits than Ohio State? I believe Northwestern is the only Big Ten school to not admit elite football players at the basic NCAA clearinghouse level. Do have evidence otherwise?

You might have a difficult time finding someone who thinks we are there yet, but your comments give the impression that you think we should be.

Hoke can't go back and rerecruit classes from a time when he wasn't the coach. What he has done indicates that there is an upward progression. Success breeds success, so as talent increases (and depth) there will be more games won which focuses the attention of young talent on the program. That increases the chances of winning more games.

Very few fans have gotten complacent about the UM football program, the realists among us take into account that the program is rebuilding and that takes some time. What realists want to see is consistent improvement, the establishment of a working system on both sides of the ball, and solid recruiting. Winning big road games is still on the "to do" list, as is establishing an offensive identity. The recruiting is already solid; in fact, it's rather spectacular considering Hoke is not Urban Meyer and he's rebuilding a program.

I dont' know if you know this, but we played the national champion this year, and we likely wouldn't have done any better than ND at the end of the season. The realist fans aren't complacent, you're unrealistic to expect that in year two of the Hoke era UM should be recruiting 5 stars left and right and winning every game.

I didn't expect us in Year 2 of the Hoke program to be 12-0 and winning national titles, etc. The OP who I originally responded to was venting out of frustration, and my main response to his post was that we can stress about recruiting commitments, etc all we want, but nothing is going to change for us as Michigan fans until the program reaches a point where it's winning 10 games regularly again.

In no way do I think we should be at that stage yet given all the damage from the past 5-7 years that needed to be undone. All I'm saying is that until we get back to that point (be it next year, 2015, or whenever), we will have to deal with the frustrations that come with losing to Ohio and/or being percieved nationally as the inferior team among the two schools. And that's something that should/ will continue to make our blood boil as Michigan fans.

around the early to mid 80's or so, give or take. Here are our records for the first 15 years following that stretch:

85: 10-1-1

86: 11-2

87: 8-4

88: 9-2-1

89: 10-2

90: 9-3

91: 10-2

92: 9-0-3

93: 8-4

94: 8-4

95: 9-4

96: 8-4

97: 12-0

98: 10-3

99: 10-2

So over a 15 year period, we won 10 or more games 7 times for an average of nearly every other year. I'd say winning 10 games every other year for a sustained period qualifies as a regular occurrence. Considering we were playing a 12 game schedule in most years during this stretch rather than 13, this makes our performance even more impressive. Were we the best program in the country during this period? No, teams like Florida State and Nebraska were more dominant. But in most years during this stretch, we were an elite team and our records generally reflected this.

We started to slip a little during the back half of the Carr era after Tressel came in, but even through 06 we were still doing respectably when it came to double digit win seasons. Below you can see that from the 7 year period from 00-06, we won 10 or more games 3 times:

00: 9-3

01: 8-4

02: 10-3

03: 10-3

04: 9-4

05: 7-5

06: 11-2

So in total, we won 10 games or more 10 times in a 22 year stretch following the end of the Big 2/Little 8 Era. If you want to say that this means we didn't win 10 games on a "regular" basis during this stretch, I suppose you could make that argument on a technical basis. But we certainly had a very healthy number of 10 win seasons over a period of 2 decades plus, and that's the cadence I'd like to see us get back to as a Michigan fan.

The Big Two really ended with Woody leaving, which was after '78. The years after that?

8-4

10-2

9-3

8-4

9-3

6-6

That turns it to 11 in 28 years.

and a multitude of things have changed over that time. The Big Ten is a lot tougher with the bad teams being good. (Wisconsin in those days was worse than Indiana). We've added to major powers in Penn State and Nebraska. And back in those early days, teams like Notre Dame weren't regular OOC teams. In the favor is there's an extra game on the schedule (which is why I didn't include those later Michigan teams, who got ten wins playing 13 games).

Since Bo what does that add up to? 19 with at least 10, and 25 with less? So I don't know what "regularly" means. If it means multiple years in a row, then we haven't really done that regularly. If it means close to 50% of the time, then we've done that. But then we've never stopped, because we had ten wins in 2006 and 2011. Then you're saying just don't suck for 3 years. But that was hardly the first stretch without ten wins.

I started in the mid 80's as a guesstimate. Woody left in 78 but from 79-84, Ohio and Michigan still combined to win 4 out of the 6 B1G titles (79 and 84 for Ohio, 80 and 82 for Michigan). Iowa became a legit Top 10 team in 85, and MSU got pretty good under Perles during the second half of the 80's. Jeff George was also playing at Illinois in the late 80's and even Indiana had a couple respectable teams with Anthony Thompson at RB during that time.

Obviously, I could have picked an earlier date to start and the results would have been skewed a bit the other way - it's a fair point. I just thought it was worth observing that there was a solid 15 year period, well after the Big 2/Little 8 era ended, during which Michigan had a healthy number of 10 win seasons despite the the increased competition in conference.

As far as the more recent times go, our rate of 10 win seasons has slowed a bit. If you go back to 06, we've done it twice in 7 seasons. That's not nearly as close to 50% of the time as we saw during a much larger sample period, and it's further exacerbated by the fact that we had a couple losing seasons thrown into the mix as well.

The larger point in all of this is that for Michigan to truly get its mojo back as an elite football program, we need to get back to the level of success we saw from 1985-1999, rather than what occurred from 2007 onward or even from 2000-2006, for that matter. The strength of competition within the B1G is not radically different from what we saw throughout the 90s, so with good coaching and strong recruiting this is a reasonable goal to strive for. But until we get back to that level of success, Ohio will have the advantage over us as a program.

This was the point I was trying to make when I alluded to the 10 win seasons in the first place, and I think it's still a valid argument.

Why is with Michigan we just accept a ten win season and a trip to the rose bowl each season. It seems to me thats the high goal..Look I love Michigan with all my heart and bleed blue.But as a Michigan fan who has seen every game since the mid eighties we have won one national title and we say around here thats good enough that HORSE SHIT!!! I guess as a Michigan fan the standard is to win a National Title every 25 years. For a program that showed Notre Dame how to play it back in the day and for having the most wins of all time is great!! but I want some tropies like Alabama

There are overreactions, and then there are reactions that are so far removed from that which would be reasonable given the purported trigger that you pray that the Internet made a mistake, and that the comment was meant to be a response to something else. But no, invariably the Internet confirms that it was, in fact, not an error. It was simply DERP of the highest order. Damn you, Internet. Damn you.

Not with the proclamation of Little Brother but we speak of expectations all the time with Hoke. Way to early to judge his plans. But if we are still on the low end of the national scene and can't beat ohio or don't win Big Ten titles then its time to go. Hopefully Brandon's idea of success are wins and not profit.

Will not start at corner unless Blake or Raymon are injured. Taylor was Michigan's best cover corner this past season and most teams picked on Floyd instead of Taylor. He has the size, speed, and experience for the position.

...do not equal game day stars. Jake Ryan was a consensus 3 star recruit. Would you rather he have gone elsewhere? I would not. I trust the coaching staff to evaluate, recruit and offer the kind of players that we will be proud of on and off the field

...gives me a slight impression that he might stick with Illinois. He likes the academics at Illinois, and apparently they've told him he can play early, which probably wouldn't be the case here. I'd like to see the kid land here though...he's tall and has legit speed (claims a 48.8 400).

We have an open cornerback spot, one presumed starter is coming off ACL surgery, and none of the other cornerbacks have played (except slot corner Avery, who's a senior). He might not be able to start from Day 1, but I think there's a high probability that he can play early if he's good enough.

The coaches need to put the full court press on CBs for the 2014 class. With the overwhelming amount of teams running spread offenses, you need a lot of cover guys and they must be physical and athletic enough to make tackles in space.

but I'll take any speculation, really. It seems to me that Toussaint did a good job in 2011 with a good O line, and this year, logically, regressed. Are people not expecting him to come back next year that he isn't being discussed as a realistic runningback option along with our incoming people? Obviously, we'd get at least one more year out of him as an option if he were to come back.

He was expected to consider the NFL if he had a good season in 2012, partly because he's a father. Obviously, he had a poor season and then got injured. I wouldn't expect him to test the NFL waters unless he gets some really terrible advice, and I think the deadline for declaring for the draft is tomorrow.

I think Toussaint is the likely starter next year because of his experience (and considerable talent), but you never know how quickly he'll heal from his injury/surgery. You always need a backup option, though, so whoever the #2 running back is should expect to get lots of playing time, whether it's Toussaint, Rawls, Green, or someone else.

By the way, I think Toussaint's regression was partly because of the offensive line and partly because of himself. He looked slower this year, and I would not be surprised if a guy who got caught drunk driving didn't really have the best off-season of preparation. I would think he'll have a little more motivation to come into 2013 in the best physical condition of his life.