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This study group is for fun and basic accountability in working on the ideas presented in Chris’ videos.
We will start with Blues and Rhythm changes scale outlines, and move on 10/9. Let’s start off with our personal goals for this first month, what we hope to gain, speeds to reach, plan of attack etc

be sure to support his channel

Edits: Page 5: Episode 6 added as a long term assignment (the 4 scales of chords)Page 9: Month #2 looking at 5-4-3-2 concept from episode 3, and continuing work on chord scales from episode 6Page 10: Month #3 Looking at the ABCs and Barry's chromatic scale from episode 4, and continuing work on chord scales from episode 6

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so my goal is to be able to run these at 200 bpm in all keys/positions. I use CAGED, so i’ll do 5 positions. this might be a stretch, but hey why not. I think i’ll just go back and forth between blues and rhythm— one’s not really any harder than the other.

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A couple of things I've* learned that I'll share for the total novice who might come to this thread, especially if like me they came from a blues/folk background:

1) Chances are, if you were like me, you learned the minor pentatonic and played it as a scale to "shred". Maybe a little jumping around, but most of the color was in attack, rhythm, and bends. You played the notes up and down in mini runs. It is reasonable to assume we are starting with these scales because you are going to do the same thing: make your lines by running the scales.

Chris says this, BH says this, but somehow it really bears making explicit. We practice the scales to get the basic harmonic movement in our ears. Barry Harris DOES NOT improvise by just running scales. His own improvisation features very little playing straight scales. Running scales is not a way to build lines for BH. That may seem obvious to most, but I find the hardest thing about beginning is that no one ever states the obvious. Building lines in your solo will come later after you have the chord progression completely internalized. This is a tool for doing that.

2) Blues to a jazz player is not the same as the Blues you learned when you first picked up the guitar. People coming from the blues may think that the blues is 2 bars of C7 answered by 2 bars of C7/2 bars of F7 answered by 2 bars of C7/2 bars of G7 answered by 2 bars of C7 (or something like that). Where the heck does the 3rd of the "A" come from?

Jazz players tend to think of the blues form a little differently. 1 bar of C7, 1 bar of F7, 2 bars of C7, 2 bars of F7, then a turnaround for 4 bars, followed by a turnaround for 2 bars. A basic jazz "turnaround" is playing I-vii-ii-V7-I. In the key of C, Amin7 is the vi chord. Blues and jazz lived side by side and cross-pollinated, but no one said they were the same thing.

But wait, there's more! Amin7 doesn't really propel you to the ii chord, so we turn it into an A7 chord. That gives it more drive to the ii. Yes, yes... there is no diatonic A7 in C. But jazz cats don't care. So it just goes unsaid that you need to play the major third of A7 in bar eight. No explanation needed, right? Obviously .

Whew!! So if you are new to all this, BH's "basic" blues isn't really all that basic. But don't let that throw you. Call it a "jazz blues" or "BH's blues" or just a jazz tune that vaguely reminds you of a blues...whatever, but use this method of running the scales to really get the sound/changes into your ears.

*This is one man's understanding laboring alone in his former office/now daughter's bedroom somewhere in California. There will undoubtably be a dozen on this forum alone yelling at the screen, "WTF is this guy talking about!!! That is so wrong on so many levels. Where is my insult thesaurus?!!! I'm going to burn up the keyboard on this one." So take what I say in the spirit it is offered: to help a fellow journeyman with what I know.

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Oh, and in the spirit of the first assignment:

My goals are to be able to play these scales from the root on the 5th-4th-3rd string starting with my middle finger AND starting with my pinkey. I want to be smooth with no hesitation, speed is not really too important to me right now. Finally, I hope to have anyone call out any key and specify which string set and be able to launch right in. To do that I will probably work it through a circle of fourths for 4 or 5 cycles. I have strong opinions why I don't think practicing in "all 12 keys" makes sense for a guitarist, but that is for another discussion.

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Thanks Joe. I'll be learning these in all positions. Ive already watched all these videos, so will be throwing some suggstions from future videos as well, but will make sure I can do these in all keys and positions first.

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It took me a couple of years to get the scale outline thing up to speed, I still get roasted on it sometimes, but I used to just sit there in the class drooling out the corner of my mouth, so that’s a step forward

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Just had a thought - if a pianist is using Barry’s methods and takes a solo, where the left hand plays chords and the right hand plays single notes, do they simultaneously use the ‘harmonic system’ in the left hand and the ‘scale system’ in the right hand?

E.g. on a Gm7b5 does the LH play Bbm6/dim chords while the RH plays Eb7 lines? Could get complicated to think about, at least in the ‘learning’ stage!

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Originally Posted by grahambop

Just had a thought - if a pianist is using Barry’s methods and takes a solo, where the left hand plays chords and the right hand plays single notes, do they simultaneously use the ‘harmonic system’ in the left hand and the ‘scale system’ in the right hand?

E.g. on a Gm7b5 does the LH play Bbm6/dim chords while the RH plays Eb7 lines? Could get complicated to think about, at least in the ‘learning’ stage!

Good question.

My general vibe with how most bop pianists play, including Barry and Pasquale Grasso, is that when they are in soloing on faster tunes they tend to play sparse shell left hand (7ths, 3rds, 6ths) and bebop lines in the left hand. The shell voicings are more punctuation... The classic Bud Powell thing.

Even Bill Evans tend to play this way.

The lush types of harmonisations that Barry uses the 6th dim scales etc for tend to be more for heads, slower tunes and comping...

In practice, I don't think there would be a huge issue using one over the other, but I think for practicalities sake it rarely comes up?

When I comp, I often use the 6th dim scale to create voice movement and colour. I don't think it clashes or messes up the soloists lines... (?)

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So for scale outlines I like to think of the interval shape - the octave (although of course we don’t run the scale to the octave.

Find all the the octave positions on the guitar, and run scales between them going to the 7th and back.

I find this less unwieldy than CAGED

i think it ends up relatively similar, doesn’t it/innit? i see the separate octave shapes too, but certain ones are just connected. your way would be better for smooth fingering and moving around the fretboard though. I like visualizing connected octaves because it helps with things like pivoting, added note rules etc

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Originally Posted by christianm77

My general vibe with how most bop pianists play, including Barry and Pasquale Grasso, is that when they are in soloing on faster tunes they tend to play sparse shell left hand (7ths, 3rds, 6ths) and bebop lines in the left hand. The shell voicings are more punctuation... The classic Bud Powell thing.

yes makes sense. In fact listening to Barry on faster tunes, he sometimes plays just one loud note in the left hand, as a sort of rhythmic punctuation.

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yes makes sense. In fact listening to Barry on faster tunes, he sometimes plays just one loud note in the left hand, as a sort of rhythmic punctuation.

Right. Even on medium tempo tunes his left hand is not too busy. And when you do hear him occasionally comp between lines, it usually equally involves his right hand.
One of Barry's common complain about piano players (in his videos at least) is that they put their left hand too high on the piano register. I think that's apparent in his playing. The left hand usually hits a bass note, and maybe one extra note. The right hand is where the color comes from, even when soloing I believe.

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One drawback of playing BH scales always starting from the root is that the brain loves shortcuts. When you do something always in the same specific way, brain learns to rely on certain cues/landmarks that apply only to that specific way. These cues/landmarks are usually subconscious. If you play scales always starting from the root, you're learning just that.
Scales should be practiced starting from different degrees and with different targets. Some people call them "modes" I prefer mastering a scale deeply, rather than skimming all it's modes as separate entities. But that's a different subject.
BH scales of course are for ear training and learning a tune's changes. But one doesn't have to play scales from the root to "sound" the changes. So you can pack more to your practice time by being creative with the scales. This might be obvious to some. But since we established that there is a value in stating the obvious,I though I'd state this as well.

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Another proof of the "subconscious" landmarks the brain relies on is playing things in different keys.
Logically there is no point to practicing things in different keys on guitar because if you can play something in one key, then it should be trivial to play the same thing up a couple of frets, right? It never is!
Take a bebop head you know very well in it's original key. Try to play it up a HALF fret. I'm completely thrown off when I do this.
Never mind a bebop head, this is true even with much simpler things.

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One drawback of playing BH scales always starting from the root is that the brain loves shortcuts. When you do something always in the same specific way, brain learns to rely on certain cues/landmarks that apply only to that specific way. These cues/landmarks are usually subconscious. If you play scales always starting from the root, you're learning just that.
Scale should be practiced starting from different degrees and with different targets. Some people call them "modes" I prefer mastering a scale deeply, rather than skimming all it's modes as separate entities. But that's a different subject.
BH scales of course are for ear training and learning a tune's changes. But one doesn't have to play scales from the root to "sound" the changes. So you can pack more to your practice time by being creative with the scales. This might be obvious to some. But since we established that there is a value in stating the obvious,I though I'd state this as well.

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Tal, with all your arguments on what’s a better way to practice it gives me the feeling that you are under the impression that this is all we will be doing for a month. we are all working other hings, this will be about 10% of my practice

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Originally Posted by joe2758

Tal, with all your arguments on what’s a better way to practice it gives me the feeling that you are under the impression that this is all we will be doing for a month. we are all working other hings, this will be about 10% of my practice

This was a general remark. Not at all an attempt to address any specific thing regarding this thread. BH workshop scale outlines are given in root position. I believe this was done to clearly show what scales to play where. Not necessarily to indicate how to exactly practice these tunes. That's my take on it. I'm not suggesting the thread is saying otherwise.

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The rhythmic aspect is the most important. Musicians on other instruments would be coming from the context of having learned scales octave- to- octave classical-style probably. Learning to play them up and down, but ENDING on the root ...on the strong beat is the important aspect - and the thing which differentiates them as being more bebop than classical.

The "trap" aspect is over blown and not helpful in this case. Of COURSE, if you practice always starting from the root, that's what you're going to be ABLE to do. And it's absolutely the truth for ANYTHING you "always and only" do, but this simply IS NOT a "restriction".

The fact that many guitar players learn things only one way is somewhat beside the point in my opinion. Most players who know scales, know how to play them up and down an octave and need separate practice playing then up-and-down a 7th, the way Harris prescribes.

Beginning exercises and starting points aren't RESTRICTIONS. They are in a way, by default, if you NEVER progress past that point, but that's kind of a false problem , and again, somewhat beside the point.

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Originally Posted by matt.guitarteacher

The rhythmic aspect is the most important. Musicians on other instruments would be coming from the context of having learned scales octave- to- octave classical-style probably. Learning to play them up and down, but ENDING on the root ...on the strong beat is the important aspect - and the thing which differentiates them as being more bebop than classical.

The "trap" aspect is over blown and not helpful in this case. Of COURSE, if you practice always starting from the root, that's what you're going to be ABLE to do. And it's absolutely the truth for ANYTHING you "always and only" do, but this simply IS NOT a "restriction".

The fact that many guitar players learn things only one way is somewhat beside the point in my opinion. Most players who know scales, know how to play them up and down an octave and need separate practice playing then up-and-down a 7th, the way Harris prescribes.

Beginning exercises and starting points aren't RESTRICTIONS. They are in a way, by default, if you NEVER progress past that point, but that's kind of a false problem , and again, somewhat beside the point.

Matt, as usual you are disagreeing with something just for the sake of it. The words "trap", "restriction" are your interpretation.
I believe an average reader can read my posts and yours and decide if there is a value in your "correction". I'm really not getting into this with you again.

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Originally Posted by Tal_175

This was a general remark. Not at all an attempt to address any specific thing regarding this thread. BH workshop scale outlines are given in root position. I believe this was done to clearly show what scales to play where. Not necessarily to indicate how to exactly practice these tunes. That's my take on it. I'm not suggesting the thread is saying otherwise.

Hi Tal,
You are absolutely right. In one of the recent videos by Chris (episode 22 - about playing over the rhythm bridge) he say that after Barry have them play the scales of the bridge, he tell them to come up with phrases and play the same phrase in each of the keys over the changes.

Check out this episode. In only 15 minutes, Chris cover so much of Barry's stuff. It's pretty amazing. It also show the importance of the ABCs of Barry, because eventually everything is connected (playing in thirds, triads, chords, half steps, etc.)

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Originally Posted by Tal_175

One drawback of playing BH scales always starting from the root is that the brain loves shortcuts. When you do something always in the same specific way, brain learns to rely on certain cues/landmarks that apply only to that specific way. These cues/landmarks are usually subconscious. If you play scales always starting from the root, you're learning just that.
Scales should be practiced starting from different degrees and with different targets. Some people call them "modes" I prefer mastering a scale deeply, rather than skimming all it's modes as separate entities. But that's a different subject.
BH scales of course are for ear training and learning a tune's changes. But one doesn't have to play scales from the root to "sound" the changes. So you can pack more to your practice time by being creative with the scales. This might be obvious to some. But since we established that there is a value in stating the obvious,I though I'd state this as well.

I like your thinking. So, as an example, how would you specifically incorporate this in your practice?

For eg, the blues. Would you run the scale from the important minor to the 11th, and maybe also from the b7 to the 13? Or are you mechanically going through ALL modes?

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you both have points, but let's move on. Everyone here is choosing to work on the same thing regardless of why. My experience with study groups has been really positive, so let's just support each other at the task at hand. Tonight I'm going to see what my base line speed is for these things and how close i can get. I'm expecting around 170 before I get sloppy

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I like your thinking. So, as an example, how would you specifically incorporate this in your practice?

For eg, the blues. Would you run the scale from the important minor to the 11th, and maybe also from the b7 to the 13? Or are you mechanically going through ALL modes?

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro

I haven't watched it yet but the Chris's video above posted by tamirgal sounds like has some good pointers.
One example of what I do is to build a one bar phrase starting from a specific chord tone and adapt the phrase to each chord of blues and play with a metronome (on 2 & 4) or with a looper. Phrase can be triadic, scalar or mixed. I might practice initially 4 bars at a time. Example of a simple phrase is just the usual 1, 2, 3, 5 but starting on the 5th. Then you can do 1, 2, 3, 5, 7, 6. This starting on different chord tones while adjusting the quality of the degrees (say 3 can be b3 based on the chord or scale degree phrase is starting on).
Another example of a phrase 3 down to 6 chromatically.

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I attended Howard Rees workshops for a couple of moths a while ago. They were excellent. A lot of the workshops were about building phrases that work over certain chords or common chord changes (for example 1 going to 6) and applying them to tunes. Much like the 1 going to 6 examples in the BH Workshop videos.
I believe the format and style of the workshops followed the original BH workshops closely.

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Originally Posted by Tal_175

One drawback of playing BH scales always starting from the root is that the brain loves shortcuts. When you do something always in the same specific way, brain learns to rely on certain cues/landmarks that apply only to that specific way. These cues/landmarks are usually subconscious. If you play scales always starting from the root, you're learning just that.
Scales should be practiced starting from different degrees and with different targets. Some people call them "modes" I prefer mastering a scale deeply, rather than skimming all it's modes as separate entities. But that's a different subject.
BH scales of course are for ear training and learning a tune's changes. But one doesn't have to play scales from the root to "sound" the changes. So you can pack more to your practice time by being creative with the scales. This might be obvious to some. But since we established that there is a value in stating the obvious,I though I'd state this as well.

Playing BH scales with his half step rules, right? I am guessing BH would approve, but I never met the gentleman.

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is anyone going to be working on the material in the video? no problem if not, but otherwise I'm not going to worry about posting my progress. I think I saw like one other guy say he was going to participate and learn in different positions, and the thread is two pages long...

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You're right Joe. Though I think just one clarification is due. Some people took my posts to mean, "BH wants you to only practice scales from the root, don't play them in any other way". If so, then I'm sorry looks like I didn't state my post well.
What I meant was to the contrary, playing over tunes by applying all the tools described in the videos to the scales as well as coming up with new creative ways. I did say that may be this would be obvious to some. But because all the tunes in Chapter 2 are outlined by scales from the root(along with some phrase building), it might be easy for some to "over emphasize" this form during their practices.

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Ok. So, through October 9, the primary focus is the blues up-and-down as in the video and goals related.

Personally, I'll aim for 200 bpm in a couple of new positions, solidifying about 5 of them.

What I'm personally talking about - and what I would speculate Christian is basically talking about - is playing one -octave dominant scales:

from 2nd finger roots on 4th, 5th, and 6th strings...
from 4th finger roots on 4th, 5th, and 6th strings...
and another from 1st finger root on 3rd string...
( Be curious to know how these lime up with Christian)

The first time I looked at doing some of this, I found the number of possibilities for things to be frustrating. So, for anyone in that potential situation, I'll offer one person's approach. Take what you like and leave the rest. :-)

My approach finally became to start with one "position", like the one he uses in the video, and learn those 3 patterns. It has three dominant fingerings patterns, one of which you would alter for C major down to C# (apologies for terminology). Anyway, if you've never done these, they can be more technical than mental. So, I found it helpful to work the entire progression using a single fingering. Then, rinse and repeat with the other 2, and finally, all 3 "in position".

Then, you can cycle 4ths backwards or forwards to add new "positions". Go back one, to G major in that third position, and you're only adding one new fingering. Eventually you'd want to go back one more and get that D major position At the third fret as well, but I would do a different order - first cycling forward to an F position, 3rd fret.

Anyway, there are only five if you do this, And you're only adding one new fingering at a time. If you're some kind of efficiency nerd, you could skip forward to, but you have to pick up all of them eventually regardless. I am lazier. personally I would just look at this as a long-term organizational approach to the order in which you MIGHT learn things. I would never seek to do ALL of these in any short timeframe.

Too much text. It's much simpler in practice. I can illustrate slowly if anyone's interested. Would be cool if C Miller got on with video though. Just saying. :-)

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This is also how I've been approaching the fretboard in the past year or so. I also discovered this independently and I was very excited about it as I thought it removed a lot of the clutter of the other systems I was using before and allowed for deeper understanding of the fretboard. Then I was happy to find out that there were other people who use/teach this method. It's a great mystery to me why it doesn't get as much attention as, say, CAGED or 3 note per string methods.

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Joe,

I'm totally with you. Been doing just as I said, working on running the scales from root to seventh exactly like Chris suggests. Did it as I was planning last night: root on 5th, 4th, and 3rd. Starting with middle finger and then pinky (index and ring finger starting on 3rd string). In C and F (didn't get to Bb or Eb as I was hoping).

We are all excited about this material. Don't let our side conversations derail the study group. I'm video challenged right now, but I thought I would record a before and after. If I get time in my home office this evening, I'll do the "before" video.

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I have what is probably a stupid question on one of the scales in the blues progression in Chris' video 1 and in the Barry Harris Workshop Video book 1. Of course in the key of C.

On all the chords, you start at the root and play up, only playing down if the chord lasts more than one measure. So why in bars 7 and 8 do we ascend the C7, descend th C7 and end on C#. I know the C# chord fits the A7 here, so I'm not questioning this. To keep consistent, I would think in bar 8 we would start on an A note and ascend an A7 scale (A B C# D E F# G) based on what we did against C7 and F7 earlier.

Is there something he is going to set up later?

Some background on me. I've been doing the chording side of Barry Harris study for a few years and am really liking what it has been teaching me. Thus decided to launch into single note solo study. I've played Jazz a long time and am comfortable soloing on much stuff but not pro level. I know why the descending line in bar 8 sounds good, just wondered why the departure from the other dominant chord scales.

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OK, I had to go home this afternoon and thought I would just shoot the "before" video starting on the scales. After all it all about one take and no editing if I'm going to be honest about it. It is really hard to post a raw video with flubs and all!!! Makes me cringe to watch it, but that is the point.

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Originally Posted by Petimar

On all the chords, you start at the root and play up, only playing down if the chord lasts more than one measure. So why in bars 7 and 8 do we ascend the C7, descend th C7 and end on C#. I know the C# chord fits the A7 here, so I'm not questioning this. To keep consistent, I would think in bar 8 we would start on an A note and ascend an A7 scale (A B C# D E F# G) based on what we did against C7 and F7 earlier.

Here is my take on this. This is a way of playing I7 chord into VI7 chord that addresses a few ways the harmony of bars 7 and 8 of blues is played:
| I7 | VI7 |
| I7 | I7 VI7|
| I7 | iii (minor or half diminished) VI7 |
or even
| iii (minor or half diminished) | VI7 |

Playing the way BH shows addresses all of them reasonably well. Like I said this is my take on it, others may disagree.