Nikon counts down to new mirrorless

Following an earlier leak, Nikon has officially started the clock on a countdown to its upcoming 'special event', widely assumed to be the launch of a new mirrorless system. The timer is counting down to 1pm, on the 23rd of August (Tokyo time). That's midnight in New York, 5am in London and 9pm on the previous day for the DPReview office here in Seattle.

What are you hoping to see announced? Let us know in the comments, and don't forget to vote in our ongoing poll.

I really hope that this announcement is a camera, that it's released soon, and that it's awesome. Sony's cameras are extremely impressive, but they have some rough edges that Canon and Nikon sanded off of their lineups long ago. I'm really interested to see what happens to the FF ILC space once Canon, Nikon, and Sony are all competing with each other. Canon and Nikon obviously have way more experience than Sony, but at the same time Sony must have known for years that this day would eventually come. Canon and Nikon must know that they need to come correct, and hopefully they'll be able to deliver something truly excellent. Hopefully Sony is ready to fire back with more of the sort of innovation that they've become famous for. If all three companies are able to deliver, we should see some great innovation and some really impressive cameras over the next few years. The winner will be photographers, regardless of what system they each prefer.

Not sure about released "soon" as they did say 2019 the last the spoke of their mirrorless. Now that could have been a "lie" to fool people (including competitors). I mean, if it came out this year, that would be great, but I'm not betting on that but am willing to wait until 2019. I'm thinking this will just be an unveiling at most and that the real thing won't be available (even for pre-order) until Q1 of 2019, at the earliest. Again, if they can get it in stores by Christmas 2018, that would be great too, but quite unlikely.

Quite the contrary, Sony have far more experience of making full-frame mirrorless cameras than Canon or Nikon, and that's what we are talking about here. In fact Sony are so far ahead in this category the question is whether Canikon can ever catch up.

It's mostly the "improve their software a bit" part that gives me pause. Identifying and effectively remedying the frustration points in their UX seems to be something they're struggling with a little. Granted, it's a hard problem—but that's why experience is such a big advantage. Most of Canon and Nikon's existing software can and should carry over from their DSLRs.

After all we're not just talking mirrorless, we're talking *cameras*. All cameras—FF mirrorless competes directly with FF DSLR now, and it looks to be the way of the future. A big transition point is coming in the industry, and it will be interesting to see what new developments come out of it, especially if global shutter becomes feasible on FF.

Personally I think we'll see the benefits of global shutter first at the smallest sensor sizes. That will be very interesting. This is interesting too, even if there's a chance that FF ILCs in general start looking kind of like dinosaurs soon.

Nikon Mirrorless are going to have strong motors, to focus the lenses as fast as D5. They are going to have fast processors for burst shooting, and they will use XQD and CFexpress cards to keep up with the RAW shooting bursts and video.

@taruaS: Nope we're talking about cameras in general. And Sony - although having experience in mirrorless fullframe, which is actually nothing more than just a different size sensor - has still not managed delivering the finished product quality of a Canon and Nikon. That already begins in menus and ends in actual weather resistance or ergonomics.

@ShiranaiNikon has no finished menus either lol.You cannot even have both single-press and press+wheel keybinds at the same time for some reason.Their whole design concept for changing essential settings is inconsistent. Canon has everything at the same place so you need only 1 hand and Sony has 4 wheels for ISO, shutter speed, sperture and exposure comp anyway.\

D850 grip sucks as well. Most of what you said is a myth born out of buyer's remorse except weather sealing.

Okay, long time Minolta/Sony user here. One thing that has kept me from switching to mirrorless is the size of Sony's E mount bodies. Tried them several times at my local camera store and it just felt wrong - at least in my hands. I can't really tell from the video, but hopefully the Nikon version will have more of a DSLR size/feel. Also, hopefully someone will come up with an adaptor that will let me use my Sony and Minolta lenses with the camera.

@Will MurrayNo it is adapted, not native.You are using lenses made for a different flange distance so you have tons of wasted space between the back element and sensor which is not ideal.Basically you have big lenses that were made for big cameras with big grips and now you make those lenses even bigger with the adapter while using a way smaller camera at the same time.And none of those lenses have motors that will be able to keep up with the focusing systems mirrorless will be able to offer.

Has Canon or Sony made adapters to their system? I don't actually know, but I'm guessing no. Sony with adapters is not perfect, especially if you want to use a nikon lens. The previous nikon adapters for the 1 system worked flawlessly, and I would expect no less here, considering how important this will be until they can flesh out the lens line up. But if sony shooters want to point a lack of lens choice from a manufacture, they better look in a mirror. You don't have many native lenses either, and what you do get is more expensive, and usually larger, which is just the cherry on top. You can ride Canon coat tails all you want, this system is going to have a very large impact on the market.

The camera has a FF sensor, but it's not clear if the mount can support medium format. If you look at a Fujifilm GFX, the back glass on the lens is quite smaller than the sensor. Even if the mount throat is 50 mm, it is theoretically possible to support a medium lens and medium sensor.

The Z mount is neither designed for fast lenses, nor medium format. It is a new mount and that is the size required for optimum performance on digital, which requires light rays to exit the lens as telecentrically as possible.

Looking at existing FF lens mounts will not give you a good idea of the necessary size as almost all of them are legacy mounts from the film era.

The exception is Leica's L mount, which was designed for FF digital sensors. It's 48.8mm. Z mount is rumoured to be 49mm.

E-mount was designed for aps-c and super 35 so it's diameter of 46.1mm is sub optimal for FF.

I've seen the fat, bald guy with the tats claiming the mount is large to accommodate a MF sensor and ultra-fast lenses of f0.95, but it won't be a surprise to anyone to learn that he's talking complete nonsense.

Neither Nikon, Canon, nor Sony has released a lens in the digital era larger than f1.4 and they never will for reasons I can go into if you want.

"optimum performance on digital, which requires light rays to exit the lens as telecentrically as possible"

Maybe back in the day, but now microlenses are configurable to eliminate this issue. Just like the original A7R had color shifts on some vintage lenses because it basically used the D800E sensor. It's since been fixed via corrective microlenses, along with the rest of Sony's lineup. Otherwise, Nikon's new camera would be useless with any lens other than DSLR or native, as the same color shift will happen.

Also, something to note about Leica's L mount lenses: they're huge! Even in comparison to Sony. ;) Whether that's just from overengineering (Otus-level) or just because the rear element can be larger, you better hope Nikon's new lenses don't follow that trend.

One more thing, Canon entered the digital era in 2000 with the D30. 6 years later, Canon launched not one, but TWO ultra fast lenses: the 50mm f/1.2 L and the 85mm f/1.2L II USM.

"Maybe back in the day, but now microlenses are configurable to eliminate this issue. Just like the original A7R had color shifts on some vintage lenses..."

Colour shift is only one of the issues that result from using film era wides on a digital. The most prevalent issue (affecting all FLs) is vignetting, followed by corner smearing (again on wides). It is true that later versions of Sony's sensor have some local correction in the corners that have eliminated colour shift - it was only really an issue with the Voit 15 anyway IRRC.

Vignetting is a bigger issue and the only solution is software correction. Even a 54mm mount will not be wide enough to avoid significant vignetting. This is one of the penalties of mechanical light collection over film.

The 85/1.2 was developed in 1976 and has updated coatings and electronics but is unchanged optically since then. They may have added an air-space, but my point stands.

From Nikon we can at least hope for ergonomics, good batterylife und weatherresistence... the rest are Sony-sensors anyway. So, the will be the same as the A7R3 but all weaknesses from Sony will be gone. If someone likes mirrorless this will be the cam to use. Or the one from Canon. Soon.

Just because a sensor is manufactured in a Sony fab doesn't mean it's designed by Sony, too. Nikon designs most of their sensors and there are rumors they might start producing them somewhere else, too.

@PHtorino Since when is updating camera bodies more often than Nikon/Canon a bad thing? Innovation is a good thing, whether it happens every year, 3 years, or even every 6 months. I'd rather my camera brand innovate and release new cameras than to sit and be worried about cannibalizing sales.

You realize that the A7R3, A73 and A9 already have best in class battery life?Button layout on Sony is nearly perfect and don't expect a way bigger grip or buttons from the new Nikon because you will be disappointed. It just isn't that much bigger than the Sonys or Fujis to have this option.

Weather resistance is maybe true. But the new Sonys don't just die under conditions that are warranty-covered anyway.If your Nikon gets rained on and breaks you are fckd. Weather resistance is a nice-to-have feature but not something you should ever have to DEPEND on.

You are quite uninformed or overestimate the amount of information you have on this upcoming mirrorless considering you jump to such naive conclusions.

@vscdNikon has never made a FF or aps-c mirrorless camera. You cannot extrapolate much from their DSLR cameras - mirrorless cameras are essentially video cameras and entirely sensor dependent.

They rely on technology that Nikon has yet to demonstrate any real mastery of. For example Canon DSLRs have good battery life but their milcs have the worst battery life on the market according to CIPA.

"So, the will be the same as the A7R3 but all weaknesses from Sony will be gone."

The A7III sensor is the IP of Sony imaging. It is not in the Sony semi-conductor catalogue for Nikon to buy. Nikon does not have eye AF - they will have to develop this, as well as unbinned 4K and video PDAF.

There is much that is uncertain regarding Nikon's mirrorless. Much of their expertise in DSLR engineering is non-transferable. They will have to recruit extensively.

"Because unlike sony, nikon makes real cameras with good ergonomics and they have a century of experience to back that up."

Fanboys such as yourself continue using this talking point because it's all you have, without thinking it through. Sony's ergonomics are pretty nice on their huge DSLRs also. It's not difficult when you aren't constricted by compactness.

"It hasn’t stopped Canon and Nikon so far. Maybe if we were discussing something the size of a sugar cube."

How are the ergonomics on their FF mirrorless again? Oh yeah I forgot they don't exist. Please start making sense.

@PHtorinoHow does the market position affect your shooting experience? What is your point?Afaik Canon is probably #1 in mirrorless. So what? Does not say anything about the product quality, just about popularity.

"terrible cameras with dull colors and impractical design."- They are objectively not terrible.- "dull colors" - Ironic because in most recent color science blind tests, Sony comes in first and Nikon last.- "impractical design" - Sounds like any modern Nikon button layout. Just look at the D850 where you have to do button+wheel combinations to change super basic settings. Some of those buttons are on the top right-hand side, some on the top left-hand side and one is even at the freaking front.The customization is also heavily flawed. Can't even have both single-press AND wheel-combo fn buttons.

Either do it right like Canon and collect all those buttons right next to the shutter or do it like Sony where you actually get 4 wheels for SS, aperture, ISO and exp. comp.

The issue was because Nikon was being stubborn. Sony offered them the 42MP A7R II sensor, but Nikon declined. So they had Sony build them a 45MP version instead. -___- The yields on new sensors are low, resulting in sensor shortages. So it's basically Nikon's arrogance that caused this situation. All over a completely insignificant 3MP, and the A7R III still beats it.

Steven Blackwood: That's not a supply chain problem, it's what every manufacturer would like to have happen, sell every unit you make.B&H shows 'Expected availability: Jul 30, 2018' for the D850. So people have to wait a few days to get one, Nikon is smiling all the way to the bank with this 'problem'. Nikon could spend the money to add another production line and that would solve the short term backorders for the D850, but why would they. And thanks, it's nice to see a Canon owner who's concerned for all the people who have to wait a few days to buy the D850. Are you planning on switching systems to Nikon?

A 48 ton truck with semi-autonomous driving modes helped by the well respected Nikon cameras all around, including a forward facing high definition video live view projecting the road ahead to the rear wall of the semi-trailer.

Yes, really. Vehicle camera sales are booming and Nikon should take a big slice of this massively growing market.

In my opinion the mount given its enormous size, and so the system, will be compatible with medium format glass in the future (also if this first camera and the accompanying lenses will be full frame only). This will mean that this system will last more than sony's.

From the video it seems for me, that the camera has very-very few manual controls. But it has a quite big LCD screen. So maybe the first FF camera running Android? :) Frankly, who of you would buy an FF camera with touchscreen only user interface? Me not for sure...

Plus it's not like Sony can go using the sensors that it may co-develop with Nikon or anyone else. I'm sure in their agreements (if they are doing joint-designs) there is verbage that Sony can't go using the designs in its own devices.

All of this teasing won't do a thing without an actual product. Worse, people will keep dreaming about what the final camera will be, to the point of being unrealistic (remember the D850 hybrid EVF rumor?), eventually leading to disappointment. Not a good idea to be too vague these days...

I would agree, but I'm thinking they started development a while back (like a year ago or more) but were just a little secretive about it. Sometimes making big announcements too early can be a bad thing as well. Maybe they learned from the DL line. Lots of hype early on, no product in the end. Maybe they'll switch it around this time and have little hype in the beginning but an actual physical product this time.

Since the D850 Nikon is putting more effort into pre-release publicity. Sure, it's all pretty silly when you get down to it but as a business strategy it's sound practice for a major release like this.

Well, it may not flawlessly accept all Nikon glass (F-mount DSLR glass at least). The adapter should help, but I'm sure that there will be some exceptions that just won't work right unfortunately. But you are correct, this needs to be a home run for Nikon or their days may be numbered....

MILC man - any chance that you could tell us why you’re here then - dragging Sony into a thread on Nikon’s new mirrorless.

Can I ask you a serious question, hoping for a sensible answer? You will see from my reply below that I admire Sony’s technological progress and their current stuff. I don’t knock it. I assume you’re happy with it - so why do you bother making fanboy comments as above? What are you concerned about if the camera is of no interest to you? Why aren’t you out using your excellent gear? Basically, what’s your problem?

RIght. If Nikon or Canon will not open fully own new lens mount specifications for third part manufacturers and make them as a open standard, they will be failed. Success of Sony is inside their open- standard mount and good quality adapters for Canon lenses.

I'm wondering who makes the sensor. Has Sony sold them their latest and greatest, as they did for the 800 series, or is this from somewhere else? If Sony, it could be great. If not, if Sony is holding back their best stuff now for their own cameras, then it is very unlikely Nikon can catch them, and the gap may continue to widen down the road.

Nikon and Canon designing own sensors, Canon also doing it by self. And there is many manufacturers who can make sensors and will do them for any companies like Nikon or others. And they will do any kind of sensors, even better then Sony do it. Nikon use sensor's by Sony because of they are cheap and Sony working on sensor market and want a customers, as any manufacturers want customers, otherwise their sensor's factories will be not profitable and few other companies will begin to produced sensors very fast if Sony will not supply them to market. In modern economy to do something is not difficult, but sale own products is very hard, including sensors. If Sony will not sales own sensors, Samsung (for example), Renesas, Kodak, Panasonic and some other companies will supply them, maybe few months later...

wb2trf: Sony manufactures the D850 sensor but that doesn’t mean Nikon bought it off the shelf. It is very common for a company like Nikon to work with someone else to design a sensor that will only work in their camera, then have the sensor manufactured by the other company. In this case that other company is Sony: they are a subcontract manufacturer of a sensor designed at least in part by Nikon.

With this kind of agreement, there is a hard wall placed between the group that consults with the designer and the rest of the company. Sony employees working on a Nikon sensor never talk about Nikon technology with Sony employees working on Sony-only sensors or sensors for other camera companies. This is well understood in the high-tech world (where I work).

Problem is, only Sony seems to have the ability to mass produce these sensors at any reasonable speed. You can see how slow the new D850 sensor was to roll out, because it was a modified design of the A7R II sensor, requiring retooling and time to get the process down.

The offset between the curves is because Nikon's sensor is set for a lower base ISO, but the sensor response for everything is roughly exactly the same between cameras. No denying that they're based off the same sensor. Always take Nikon's claims of designing their own sensors with a full shaker of salt...

You do need that to really up the game with a new mirrorless system, and yes, image stabilization on the same level as Olympus would completely change the game for this new camera system! nobody is sure of anything, but rumor says that they do have 5 axis ibis, but how good it is, is anyone's guess. I use the OMD-EM 1 Mark ii and trust me, the ibis in that camera is formidable!

I don't even need that much; believable path forward, a plan how to transition current users to the new system and some immediate benefits with this new camera. Personally it would be enough to have things that help with manual, non-stabilized lenses (focus peaking?), but other benefits over d850 could sway me over too.

The Z mount isn't 'extra large', it is the required size for a FF digital sensor. Don't compare it to legacy film mounts, like Nikon F.

The Sony A7rIII already has 5.5 stops of image stabilisation (CIPA) and it's mount diameter is smaller than the Z mount.

The compensational movements for IBIS are not that large and a slightly larger mount is unlikely to make any noticeable difference. The amount of movement is constrained by the imaging circle of the lens in any case. The theoretical benefit of the Z mount over E is less vignetting.

1. If you liked the teasers, the camera is in your head, you will look at it - job done.

2. If you hated the teasers, the camera is in your head - you’ll look at it.Job done. If it’s not for you, no harm done, who cares if you dislike the teasers.

3. If you hate the teasers, the camera is in your head, you’ll look at it. Job done. But if you then want the camera, are you going to turn it down solely because you don’t like the teasers? I doubt it.

Brilliant marketing but It’s all dependent of course on the camera delivering or Nikon will have flak of their own making - but I’d be more concerned without any teaser.

1. In general, I don't "hate". I'm no fanboy and I don't "hate" anybody or any company.

2. A serious / simple / modest press-release would have caught my attention in the same way, but this teaser is awkward in my opinion. If I look at the DL and 1 Products, this teaser shows signs of hope and despair (IMHO).

3. Nevertheless they have my attention, because I'm a potential customer.

I'm a Canon user but I'll be following the Nikon development very closely, and wish Nikon the very best with their new mirrorless system.

Nikon nowadays are setting the pace with DSLRs, and I fully expect them to produce one or more FF mirrorless cameras that will beat Canon's FF mirrorless on specification, image quality and value.

It saddens me that I don't have the same faith in Canon, who I predict will arrive late on the scene, with an extremely durable but less well specified workhorse model, just as they did with the 5DMkiv.

@ttranPoor dynamic range, limited AF through OVF, mediocre tracking and AFc, For 2k there are better options out there. Then again if you must have a full frame sensor with a selfie screen then Bob's your uncle

ttran88 - What's the relevance of mentioning the 6DMkii? As it happens I think the 6DMkii is a perfectly decent camera, as are all Canon cameras.

My point was that Nikons are generally better specified, better value and (arguably, depending on ISO) marginally ahead on image quality.

If I had my fabulous Canon 5DS, 5DMkiv and L glass stolen, I'd be hard pressed deciding between replacing it with identical equipment or switching to Nikon D5 and D500. I might also be tempted by either Canon or Nikon FF mirrorless, but the jury is out on that until I've seen them reviewed and had a chance to try them out.

Of course I know uncle Bob. He is the one that shows up at every family outing with a Canon 5d Ii with a battery grip ,70-200 2.8 , and 600 exrt getting in everyone's way and telling everyone to say cheese

KEnrique - You have a fertile imagination. Check prices of Nikon vs Canon and you'll see that Nikon always offers higher specifications and cheaper prices on *comparable models*. The only time when Canons are cheaper are in cases of old models that are due for replacement e.g. 7DMkii vs much more recent and better specified D500.

@golfhov if Uncle Bob arrived with an A7II, battery grip, FE 70-200mm F/2.8 and F60M do you think it would look any less cumbersome lol I suspect many non-photographers would be hard put to tell the difference between the big white lenses in their face

@james If you think I was mocking the size of the equipment then you misunderstood me. That really wasn't much of the joke and your point is correct. It was a joke based mostly on how a lot of people of a certain age get stuck in their habits or prconcieved conceptions/misconceptions about what they are supposed to be doing with a camera. First he is a guest at the event and seems to forget that. The part about getting in everyone's way. The 5dii is used because it is a "pro" body. Has no idea how good modern cameras have become. The 70-200 2.8 is used cause he has seen pros using it. He has a grip ......again because he saw a pro doing it or it makes his 5dii look like a 1dx.......that he saw a pro using. Do you see a theme? He tells people to say cheese because he has always done that. Etc, etc, sad thing is now we need a new phrase for the selfie obsessed millennials and the tablet happy auntie's standing in the aisle. It's not like Uncle Bob is the only pariah out there.......

@entoman. My imagination is fertile indeed, won't argue with that. But maybe you need to check your math. Put the 5DS with the 70-200 2.8, and it will set you back $5,300. The D850 with the same Nikon lens is $800 more expensive. Or grab a 5D IV with a 24-70 2.8, and it will cost you $4,700. The D810 with the respective Nikon lens is $500 dearer. Do it for the 1Dx II + the 100-400 2.8 and you will spend $7,400. The equivalent with the D5 is pricier by a full $1,200. Even the 6D II with the 16-35 2.8 is cheaper than the D750 combo by $150... In most of these cases the Canon cameras have the higher specs AND the Canon lenses are better and sharper...

@ken. Meh. The d810 is easily comparable to the 5ds. Even the newest D850 is priced about the same. Retail price USA. The Nikon 24-70 is considerably more expensive but it has a wild card of stabization. Some people would take the stabilization over a few megapixels all day long. The Canon 2.8 zooms quality and pricing are overall unrivaled. I will give Canon that. The 6dii may have better "specs" than a d750 but outside of liveview the D750 holds it's own in an overall comparison. The 6dii was also priced higher than the d750 was selling at release. So in short I think it has hard to generalize an entire ecosystems "value"

KEnrique - We can argue cases if you like, but your selection does not compare like with like.

Your first example of 5DS vs D850 is a crazy comparison. The 5DS (which I own) is a 3 year old camera long overdue for replacement and selling at a discount price to clear stocks, whereas the D850 (which has a considerably better specification) has barely hit the shelves, so is selling at full price. You can be your life that when Canon release the 5DS replacement that it will have a spec roughly similar to the D850, but will be significantly more expensive.

Comparing the 5DMkiv (which I also own) with the D810 is better, because both have similar specifications and performance. The Nikon is cheaper simply because it is a discontinued model, having been replaced by the D850.

I'm sure that if I adopted your selective "pick and choose" I could find plenty of body & lens combinations that contradicted your view of relative costs.

Your final comment that "in most of these cases the Canon cameras have the higher specs" is simply untrue, e.g. while the 5DS has fractionally more pixels than the D850 which you compare it with, in almost every other respect (ISO, dynamic range, fps etc) the D850 is significantly superior.

And "Canon lenses are better and sharper" is an inaccurate generalisation. Both brands have bad lenses in their respective ranges and both brands have other lenses that are stunningly sharp. Some Canon lenses are "better" than Nikon equivalents, but there are an equal number of cases where the reverse is true.

@entoman. I also own the 5DS and a Pentax 645Z and a bunch of other cameras. I don't know what that has to do with the price of broccoli... I gave you a bunch of combos to provide you with examples. The reality is that most people are going to have one or two bodies, and a bunch of lenses to go with that. Pick the holy trinity of zoom lenses and Canon smokes Nikon in both price and quality. Bodies don't exist in a vacuum, you know... With a few exceptions, most Canon lenses are better AND cheaper than Nikon.

@Kenrique I think in actual real world use the lenses are close enough for any differences to be all but meaningless . Certainly you can cherry pick the best or worst in each system to favour which ever side of the fence you sit on. An update on one system may come with better VR/IS or some other "value proposition" of debatable value. Smokes is a gross exaggeration when comparing lenses fractionally better is a more realistic term.

Prices here in the UK for lenses of similar age and tech are not too different. It seems the trend { as ever} is when a new version of a lens gets released it comes with a leap in price. Sadly not always indicative of the same leap in performance . In the end countless professional shooters in every area of photography somehow mange to get by using either system

KEnrique - my reason for listing the gear I use has nothing to do with the price of broccoli, but is relevant as a demonstration that I am not anti-Canon. I prefer Canon cameras to Nikons for several reasons.

For me personally the specs and performance of Canon cameras are adequate for my needs and the costs are affordable, but I do recognise the fact that Nikon cameras are generally better specified and better value than Canon equivalents.

Ken. You are acting like photography is some zero sum game with "one camera to rule them all". Real life isn't like that. If you used enough equipment you may know that. We never even discussed Pentax. We never discussed aesthetic preferences. We never discussed a lot of things. You have a narrow definition of how Canon was "best". Some of it was bluntly wrong. Canon don't have the best sensors

Part 2. Your 2.8 zoom scenario is PARTLY correct. They probably do have the best bang for the buck in those three lenses.......BUT not everyone uses those lenses. Some people are also willing to pay more for less, or more for more. They don't have a monopoly on quality. The 6dii is an example. There were Canon users willing to line up and hand over 2k for it. That is up to them but calling it The best value overall is absurd

perhaps "best" is innacurate. Here are a few" In most of these cases the Canon cameras have the higher specs AND the Canon lenses are better and sharper..."Both parts of that are at best vague and misleading. "Canon systems will produce higher quality images for less money" Dead wrong. A d81o and various Nikon primes best most all Canon cameras. Definitely anything in their price range. Stills anyway. Nikon doesn't have a strong video feature set but then again you need to spend 3500 in Canon for a body if you want 4k......and on and on and on

@golfhov, seriously, you have no idea what you are talking about. A 5DS R with a Canon 300 2.8 will produce a more detailed image than anything Nikon can do. The same is true for the 600 2.8 mm, the 400 2.8 mm, and the list of primes goes on and on and on... Have you ever used any one of those lenses? "If you used enough equipment you may know that"... LOL

@kenHow much does a 5dsr cost right now? I don't know. A good bit more than a D810 and an a7rii. These three cameras have been compared to death by people with far more skill than I. Edge to Canon in resolution, edge to Nikon at base DR, all within spitting distance depending on your criteria. Even those willing to throw the Pentax in concede it is a good sensor. With very limited glass.......I will take your word on the 400 and 600. That is two lenses. You can find ok comparsionss on DXO and very good comparisons on LenRentals. They all have an array of good glass with certain lenses that shine brighter than others. Canon isn't as competitive in quality and price with every lens. Some like the 85 1.8 aren't very good. Cheap tho....Your free to have the last word. You clearly are not listening to what at least three of us have said. Two with a lot of Canon experience. You are on a cruise and I wish you luck

Well, thank you for letting me have the last word. The problem is that none of the things you say stand up to any scrutiny. You mention DXO Mark. The Canon 85 1.2 is $1,600 and gets a sharpness score of 30. The Nikon 85 1.4 has the same sharpness and it is $2,200 (that is $600 more expensive). I don't care if a hundred people all say that Nikon is better value. The facts show otherwise. Nikon has better dynamic range, that is it. If you are willing to pay a premium for that, great. But saying that Nikon is good value for money compared to Canon is just nonsense. And by the way, you can pick up a brand new 5DS R for $2,150. That is pretty good value if you ask me... https://www.e-infin.com/ww/item/2642/canon_eos_5ds_r_digital_slr_camera_body_only_

LOL, I knew I would not have the last word, and that is OK. To me this is not personal. You keep on mistaking my premise. I never said "Canon is best". All I said was that when you compare Nikon vs Canon, Canon is the better value system of the two. I am not saying there will be none, but so far you haven't been able to come up with ANY examples that contradict that. If you want to talk about other brands, go ahead, but it has nothing to do with what I said. And again, your DXO Mark link shows that both Nikon's and Canon's top of the line 85mm primes deliver the exact same quality, except that the Canon has slightly more vignetting but also a wider aperture. And yet the Nikon is almost 40% more expensive! And between picking up a D810 or a 5DS R for basically the same money, I rather have the 5DS R, because it is better value... You really are not making the case for Nikon being the better value system, you know?

is my point here to say Canon is bad? Nope. Absolutely not. They make plenty of fine stuff. I also agreed if you were comparing ONLY the holy trinity Canon lenses probably have the best "value". I never looked up your 400 and 600. Canon may very well have the best "value" here. Point is it is pretty hard to say a complete system is the best "value" when there are so many parameters that go into it. I would have completely stopped replying but this far down I think you and I are the only ones reading this

Ken. The only "win" I wanted was to broaden your perspective. You are free to have whatever opinions you wish but the facts don't back it up. If you narrow your definitions Canon can easily be the best "value". Your 2.8 zooms is a good example. The 5dsr isn't. If you prioritize video and only compare to Nikon then the 6dii , 1dxii, and 5div run circles around what Nikon offers. That was all. The conversation also started about an unknown variable. Nikon would shock me if their new mirrorless is a better "value" than what Sony already offers .........but I cannot really argue that because I don't know anything yet. I am actually rooting for them to have at least a decent release to put pressure on Sony. I would love some price drops.......cheers man

Golfhov, it is useless arguing with you. You don't even understand plain English. I never said Canon is "best". Again, Canon offers better value than Nikon. I don't think you even understand what that means. The Canon EF 35mm f/1.4L II USM is THE SHARPEST lens in the list you mention (Number 1 in that list). The equivalent Nikon lens costs the same and is Number 16 in that list. Again, you don't seem to understand even basic concepts such as value for money, so I am not going to argue with you anymore.

Ken, you gotta learn to read. In 35mm lenses the Canon was third. A Zeiss first. A Sigma on Nikon second. Both options less expensive than the Canon lens that was third. The Sigma on a Canon was fourth. All of those lists the placements are not universal for any brand. How you got that Canon was first and Nikon was 16th is mind boggling. You find different results on different focal lengths. No one line is number one every time. Those measurements are also done with a discontinued Nikon, a retail $2000 Sony, and a retail $3300 Canon. How the heck is that "value"? I have done a better job make jg the case for Canon value than you have. BTW look up the 400 and 600s. Canon isn't number one again........It's not so much an argument as it is we disagree. I have shown facts and figures about my opinion and you just keep repeating vague unsubstantiated claims.....

LOL... It is so funny. Go back to your DXO link and click on the sharpness column so that the results are shown by sharpness and not by score. I am not concerned about your opinion; but I'm worried about your IQ...

Wow, FINALLY, you manage to come up with ONE example where Nikon provides better value than Canon. What is that, the 6th time that you come up with some examples? And in all the previous times, Canon provided the better value. I am still a little amused that you keep on bringing other brands. I keep on telling you that this is not about the best camera system, but a value comparison between Nikon and Canon. I repeat, Nikon vs Canon. Anyhow, man, I have no desire to keep on arguing with you. You don't even seem to understand the basic concept of value for money. So I am going to stop wasting my time with you...

Nikon here is hoping to produce a hard edge and a turning point for photographers' expectations vs the story of Sony and how it fashioned a soft edge with its revolutionary products. In this sense, there is a heavier burden on Nikon than ever before and above Sony's efforts and their constant anxiety to produce and to keep up.

Sony executives are uncomfortable. A feeling they haven't experienced for a while. Will Nikon show an ace card?

I agree Stevie despite being very happy with my Sony FE gear . I still have a boatload of Nikon gear. I can't see me abandoning my Sony kit as it does what I need. I can see me looking very hard at the high MP Nikon mirrorless as a way to get my lenses on the latest sensor. It is fun for sure though some do get a bit carried away lol

That is true MILC , I have fiddled with it myself , but unlike using Canon lenses the AF performance is very poor . I am assuming that Nikon will bring a much better ad pater to the game . From the Canon side a lot of folk using them on Sony bodies with the latest adapters say the performance is getting close to native

So you went from saying it's not different, to now asking if it's different?

Here's some advice, instead of making blatant speculative posts that could blow up in your face (look at how the D850, D5, and D500 stack up as the latest cameras) and just wait to see what it actually is.

Don't really think people forgot? It is just faith. I sent my d750 and it came back with a new shutter! I suppose every brand has its flaws. Sony suffers from the stars and stripes. Fuji has other shortcomings, as do Canon, and probably others.

MILC man - you should be a politician as you have a knack for ignoring a topic and throwing in some random comments. The Nikon 1 system was a failure - Nikon discontinued it. Does that make you happier - and where did I even comment on Nikon 1 in this thread?

"i'm looking that three d750 recalls, the d600 fiasco, the dl line that failed before even one camera was sold, snapbridge, three Nikon mgmt. reorgs, etc."

As someone that owns a D750, could you tell me about my recall? I mean, Mine wasn't in the recall, so who gives, but please tell me about how it ruined my life again? Recalls are about supporting your product and customer. Where is Sony's overheating recall, PDAF mark recall, or Start Eater recall?

please add-24-70 G lens zoom stiffness-sb900 overheating-D800 left side af defect-300 f/4 pf recallI think though that nikon has learned a valuble lesson. ..oh wait, the d500 had battery issues draining very quickly. and almost all 3rd party batteries were purposely made to not work with it.

and yes im a nikon user with heavily invested gear. I hope they dont eff up and make a great reasonably priced (under $200) adapter for f mount glass

I would rather see a bigger battery than the ENEL15, this camera is going to use more juice no matter what, so something different would be ideal. Now, if they make a different battery, but the camera was backwards compatible, then that's a different story.

MILC man - entirely agree that it won’t affect Sony users if I was one with their great gear I’d be out using rather than hanging around here concerning a product that has no interest to them - presumably. What’s the worry?

MILC man - oh come on, let’s drop the ‘banter’ and the sniping and just have a reasonable discussion shall we.Check my gear list - you’ll see that I’m heavily invested in Nikon and have been for 35 years - pro-grade stuff - I’m a registered Nikon pro , I shoot weddings and am also a registered photographer for the National Trust here in the UK so please don’t patronise me.

This gear has NEVER let me down and it performs magnificently - but does that mean that I cannot look at other gear and admire it - as I have done with Sony’s progress with mirrorless?

You seem to know my financial circumstances (I should have changed already - really!!??) which is just a puerile comment.

So - can I hope/expect a reasonable reply to the above now? You will not find a single ‘anti-Sony gear’ post from from me in any forum -I have watched it’s progress with interest - but do you seriously expect me to dump £££s whilst they were perfecting it - and when Nikon had this camera coming?

MILC you are attacking the wrong windmill neither Sheepstar or Stevie made any such claim quite the opposite in fact . Other than jumping on anyone who praises Nikon or hurts your feelings about Sony and that is what it is an emotional response . Why even bother to post in a thread for a camera that no matter how good you would never buy ,when you jump into a thread just to attack folk for holding different opinions to you. Or for being excited about a new bit of kit you are out of orderAlas there are no perfect cameras I have a litany of minor niggles with my D810 or GX8 or A7rIII, in fact every camera I have owned no matter the name on the front .They are just minor and frankly if you cannot get superb results from Nikon or Canon or Sony FF cameras the camera is not the fault. I am happy with the results from my Sony gear , I am happy with the results from my Nikon gear. Why not just let the Nikon users enjoy the excitement of the upcoming mirrorless , it has been a long wait

"do you really think that this Nikon milc will be ready to go, right out of the gate?"

I would wager a considerable sum { after getting my wives permission lol } that it will be far far better than Sony's early efforts and I will not be in the least surprised if it works as well as current Sony models. The Nikon 1 system which has nothing to do with this, that you seem fixated on was never a failing of technology in fact at the time of launch it was market leading tech . As of today Nikon has the best APS DSLR on the market in the D500 , the best high MP DSLR in the D850 { a camera still on waiting lists a full year after it came out } and the best pro DSLR in the D5. Nikon will have no problem making a great camera, will it be perfect I doubt it show me one that is

looks like some Nikon fanbois are getting their panties in a bunch ;-)

@james stirling - of course a new milc body _should_ be better than sonys early efforts, because early sony was done starting back in 2013 or so, and ospdaf technology has developed immensely since then... duh! spare us those genius observations next time.

"The Nikon 1 system which has nothing to do with this" - try telling that to all of the Nikon fanbois, who are constantly bringing it up as an example of how Nikon can do milc, lol... stop ignoring what your own fanboi camp is saying.

"Nikon has blah blah aps-c ff best dslr" - dslr is NOT milc, Nikon does not sell any ospdaf ilc's, they don't sell any dslrs or lenses that are capable of 15-20fps, they don't sell any cameras that have zero blackout, etc... Nikon is primitive, by modern milc standards, there is nothing there to suggest any kind of milc capability.

which is why you failed to give even one nikon milc example, that proves that Nikon can do it.

@James Stirling - "MILC you are attacking the wrong windmill neither Sheepstar or Stevie made any such claim"

you are living in a dreamworld... Nikon fanbois have made numerous specific comments relevant to what I posted, including the maxiso fake account, several posts up from here: "When Nikon drops the best ML on the market,"

A milc a place on my ignore list awaits , I really cannot be bothered with rampant fan boys of any format . You are the one in this entire thread trolling . Your response to that thread was the usual blind fanboy approach where according to you 70% AF success at 11fps in some magic way trumps 85% AF success at 20fps .

Just for chuckles I really hope that Nikon hits it out the park just for the laugh at the expense of Sony fanboys like yourself. Anyway you carry on with your trolling if it makes you happy though happy is not the first word that jumps to mind lol At least you gave yourself a wee like thats nice lol

I've gone the opposite direction: this month I've sold a D200 (after 11 years) and a 12-24, bought a D5600 and an AF-P 10-20.Great sensor-lens combo: small, light, cheap and convenient. I'm frankly impressed by the image quality.I'm not the client for this upcoming mirrorless but whish them luck.

The Nikon has to beat my GH5 and G9. Top video performance is absolutely essential, as are (for me) a fully articulated screen and ace audio.Looking forward to seeing what they've got for us, all the same!

Looking at the images so far a fully articulated screen looks unlikely , which is unfortunate . I do not under stand the reluctance to add FAS to these typw of hybrid cameras. I shoot Panasonic , Sony and Nikon DSLR for video the FAS is for me nearly a necessity

Right, and they also have to beat the Scheimpflug capabilities of my Linhof and spit out instant prints like my Polaroid... As a Nikon user, I primarily expect them to preserve the Nikon gestalt (implying focus on still photography, carrying over the best of their ergonomics and UI). That's what absolutely essential!

Michael , Though I am also principally a photographer I do use video quite often and FAS seems such a simple thing to put on these cameras which after all are also very capable video devices. I am currently using Nikon DSLR and Sony mirrorless a better grip and ergonomics would be welcome for sure

@James - fact is that Nikon is "guilty" of starting the video trend, perhaps an engineering experiment or marketing gimmick? They (just like many users) don't seem to care enough about video to perfect it and I don't expect this to change. For sure I wouldn't like them to become "distracted" by video to the point of compromising core still values.

The difference with mirrorless is that to provide data to the EVF mirrorless cameras always have a live video stream as such . So tapping into this is an easier matter than with DSLR'S , so you might as well do it as best you can an FAS is very handy indeed for video.

@James - Good point about the video feed for that dreaded EVF! I believe the challenge will be to provide controls/UI that will not compromise "classic" still experience and enable/add new features. Single do-it-all model may not be the best approach, curiously Mister J mentioned two "must beat" Panasonics above... I just don't think Nikon set out to please everybody with their first take.

Michael I also shoot Panasonic cameras and believe me they are like all the rest far from perfect lol. As for EVF's certainly the early models such as the bolt on model the LVF1 for my GF1 were frankly rubbish . The latest EVF's like the 3.7 million dot number in my A7rIII are totally different beasts. A good EVF has an awful lot going for it . I am very happy with my Sony gear and it delivers great results so I will not be getting rid of it . However the Nikon mirrorless is on my radar for sure I have a lot of Nikon gear { too much my wife says , as if lol }

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