Purchased some Pride and UFC fight videos this weekend. One thing I noticed, especially with the Pride videos, was it took like forever for the fighters to finally engage. They literally danced around for a good portion of the first round. I read on a boxing forum how little boxers seemed to respect MMA boxing capabilities. Maybe what I saw is why. Anyhow, heres the questions, if you had a fighter with the boxing skills of Lennox Lewis, and the ground skills of Rickson Gracie would he be the ultimate fighter?

MMA fighters ahve to be more cautious about range. Boxers just don't, and many just don't understand until they give it a shot. I remember a boxer who was asked how he would defend against roundhouse kicks to the knee. His response-"That's what hook punches are for." Teehee. I guess he never heard about those San Shou guys who were making boxers CRY at a tournament in Las Vegas a few years back.

**The most miraculous power that can verifiably be attributed to "chi" is its ability to be all things to virtually all people, depending on what version of the superstition they are attempting to defend at any given moment.**

Normally, I'd say I was grappling, but I was taking down and mounting people, and JFS has kindly informed us that takedowns and being mounted are neither grappling nor anti grappling, so I'm not sure what the **** I was doing. Maybe schroedinger's sparring, where it's neither grappling nor anti-grappling until somoene observes it and collapses the waveform, and then I RNC a cat to death.----fatherdog

Purchased some Pride and UFC fight videos this weekend. One thing I noticed, especially with the Pride videos, was it took like forever for the fighters to finally engage. They literally danced around for a good portion of the first round. I read on a boxing forum how little boxers seemed to respect MMA boxing capabilities. Maybe what I saw is why. Anyhow, heres the questions, if you had a fighter with the boxing skills of Lennox Lewis, and the ground skills of Rickson Gracie would he be the ultimate fighter?

No, because fighting isn't broken into neat little compartments of striking and grappling, like it is in sports, where you're either boxing or wrestling; striking and grappling skills must be integrated with trapping-skills to form a unified whole, which respects the interaction of relative movement to each other you get when you're touching or grabbing them or they're touching and grabbing you, as well as the absolute movement relative to the ground; it doesn't make any difference if you move behind someone or you turn them around, as long as you end up behind them, but you'd be surprised how many people think they can avoid principles by ignoring them.

For example, If someone grabs your wrist from a standing position, you have to break or reverse the grab or you're at the same disadvantage as a dog on a leash that someone's holding; even the dog is usually smart enough to grab the leash in that situation, but you'd be amazed at how many people just keep in fighting without breaking the hold first.

"I remember a boxer who was asked how he would defend against roundhouse kicks to the knee. His response-"That's what hook punches are for.""

Range with boxers isn't that much of an issue, since they normall sit within punch range. MMAists or someone who needs to defend oneself in reality has to be cautious of kick range, punches, knee range, grappling, which creates much more tention. Boxers generally don't emphasize on trying to get past any range, they just have to go in and punch without worrying of legs.

"those San Shou guys who were making boxers CRY at a tournament in Las Vegas a few years back." - I can imagaine, proper kicks often suprize unknowledgable people.

fighting isn't broken into neat little compartments of striking and grappling, like it is in sports, where you're either boxing or wrestling; striking and grappling skills must be integrated with trapping-skills to form a unified whole,

Sorry, not sure I understand this: are you saying thtat in MMA etc that trapping isn't needed because it's too much of a sport?

To answer the orginal question: No, but if you mean the best pucnher and the best grappler put together then no, becuase they would need to know kicks, elbows and knees, as well as having excellent takedowns.

Roy jones jr. and Mino would be a better match up...

Hand striking is more difficult when grappling is involved - when you start to grapple, it can be a lot more difficult to hit some one.

Edited by - blade windu on February 17 2003 13:06:56

"Training = pain." - I said that.

PizDoff when drunk: "I'm actually MOST pissed that my target for the evening got drink...then I gave her my Bullshido Canada hoodie like a gentleman because she was outside with not much on...did I mention she barfed twice when I got our jackets...steaming barf is kinda fascinating..." - PizDoff.

Rickson Gracie is so smooth in his technique. Lennox is fast and effective. I just read some info from Bas Rutten where he said Boxing and Submissions. He is a very good kicker! Of course, you wouldn't ignore the other areas (trap and kicking). However, from everything I have read so far punching and grappling (Also knees) seem to be where most of the real fights are won or lost. Could be wrong.

Range with boxers isn't that much of an issue, since they normall sit within punch range. MMAists or someone who needs to defend oneself in reality has to be cautious of kick range, punches, knee range, grappling, which creates much more tention. Boxers generally don't emphasize on trying to get past any range, they just have to go in and punch without worrying of legs.

Boxers can afford to sit in range, since at outfighting distance you can use your gloves as shields as well, and you're not allowed to rabbit-punch etc once you close and clinch. However infighting range is critical in boxing, since the most common knockout punch travels about 8 inches, with smaller punches travelling 1-3 inches, so if you have a difference in reach then you have to be VERY careful to mind the range-- even the best fighters forget this or else you fall short (Leonard-Hearns) or get jammed (Tyson-anyone but Holyfield). Like when a 6'4" heavyweight told me how he got KO'ed by a 5'7" karateka; the fact that he let the guy get that close inside his range is proof he wasn't very mindful of range.

In MMA it's not so easy; you have to use the range as a weapon as well as a defense, by bait-and-switching and outfoxing the other guy; there's also a lot more to watch for, mostly getting trapped while in range, or overstepping the line and getting beat to the punch/hold/clinch etc; likewise if you get clinched you can be rabbit-punched (they don't enforce the rule much).

"those San Shou guys who were making boxers CRY at a tournament in Las Vegas a few years back." - I can imagaine, proper kicks often suprize unknowledgable people.

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Sorry, not sure I understand this: are you saying thtat in MMA etc that trapping isn't needed because it's too much of a sport?
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I'm not sure how you get this from what I wrote. Read it again:

striking and grappling skills must be integrated with trapping-skills to form a unified whole"

This means that trapping is REQUIRED in MMA, in order to form a transition-stage between distance-striking and close-range grappling; this, in a nutshell, is Bruce Lee's big "secret weapon" but which is actually a big "no duh;" your opponent's hands and feet etc. are always closer to your hands and feet, than to your body, so you should obviously try to trap from a safe distance, and then follow up to take advantage-- and it would be just plain stupid not to trap. Contrarily, in boxing you CAN'T trap and follow up very well, since your hands are bound and you're not allowed to hold; even if you clinch then the ref breaks you up, while rabbit-punching in the clinch is strictly forbidden, while a KO by this is an automatic DQ.

To answer the orginal question: No, but if you mean the best pucnher and the best grappler put together then no, becuase they would need to know kicks, elbows and knees, as well as having excellent takedowns.

Roy jones jr. and Mino would be a better match up...

Hand striking is more difficult when grappling is involved - when you start to grapple, it can be a lot more difficult to hit some one.

It can be done, but most people haven't learned how, since they were only taught stand-up sparring-- and they're rote learners with no innovative skills. Also most people "telegraph" their punches while grappling, which is easy to do since the person is touching you and tell knows when you're positioning for a strike-- NOTHING works if the other guy sees it coming.

&amp;gt;Range with boxers isn't that much of an issue, since they normall sit within punch range

Astra I take you never boxed competitvely.
In boxing you DO have to worry about range, especially if you opponent has the reach advantage. And why do you hear sayings like "Stick and move?" Because if the guys is stronger and you are quicker you are not going to stand toe to toe with him you are going to hit and get out of his range.

It true boxers don't have to worry about legs (well kickboxers do but thats another story) But you still have to worry about get past the persons hands and defenses, or offense to counter attack.