A very talented boxer artist friend of mine is designing the logo for my future online boxer retail store Boxerhaus.com She sent me a copy of what she had worked up but I would like to get your opinions. The logo can be seen online at:

I think she did a beautiful job on the artwork but I feel like my name gets lost in it. I want the customer to be able to put the logo and name together at the same time and I am not sure that is accomplished here.

Any suggestions/ideas/recommendations I can give her would be most appreciated!

WOW! I truly appreciate all of the help that is being offered in my direction from everyone! Thank you Nuevolution for the suggested design, TJ for looking for an artist to help me out, and to everyone for their advice and opinions. Some differing opinions for sure and I honestly can see and follow everyone`s point. They all make sense and what it all comes down to is for me to process all of the information and suggestions provided me and pick a direction.

And yes Mary, you are absolutely right in that the online store I am opening will be akin to a boutique/boxer specialty store.

Good news is, I think I do have a direction and I have worked up some sketches of my vision, discussed them with my artist friend, scanned my sketches and am e-mailing them to her. Like myself, she is a fellow boxer breeder and dogshow exhibitor who specializes in fine art as well as graphic art so I know she will portray the boxer in the form I am looking for. The boxer is not a breed that is easily replicated and, because I am a bit of a boxer breed snob (not truly a snob in a general sense but I love a well bred boxer), I know my friend is the perfect artist for this job! After discussion with her, she is going to work up some new samples for me that are more graphic art in nature and which combine the business name with the graphic more intimately (I can`t believe I just said that! ). Anyhow, you know what I mean; putting the name and art together like they are with companies such as McDonalds, Pepsi, Amazon, Nike, etc.

I can`t wait to get the new sketches and would like to share them for opinion when they arrive. I told my friend how much I did love the artwork she presented to me initially and she said she would be happy to allow me to use it on my website in addition to the logo name so I am excited about that as well! She even suggested using the original submission as a watermark on the page which is definitely something I will be considering.

Thanks again to EVERYONE for all of your wonderful advice and for taking the time to help me with this! I appreciate each and every one of your comments and because of your efforts, I know I will absolutely love the finished product when I have it!!

First I want to thank everyone for their input and comments in this discussion. Everyone made very valid points and I appreciate the excellent advise and opinions on what a logo should be to in turn be effective.

I wanted a logo that would stamp the Boxer Haus name in people`s memory. I wanted a logo that not only pictured a boxer but also represented the company name and should someone see the picture standing alone after seeing it as part of the name, they would identify it as being Boxer Haus. I wanted the name and the picture to work together jointly.

And I am VERY pleased to announce my artist was able to capture my wishes perfectly! She came up with a logo that is exactly as I had hoped it would be. The name Boxer Haus means of course House of the Boxer and the new picture she integrated with the name is represented of a much simpler window in a building with two boxer puppies hanging/looking out.

If you would like to take a peek, the new and final logo is already up on my store website which is currently under construction. The logo is in the header on each page of the website. Please go and have a look at www.BoxerHaus.com and let me know your thoughts!

Thank you again to everyone! I am very much looking forward to opening for business soon and settling on a logo design that achieves exactly what I had hoped for was most certainly a very important step in the process!

First, I think the "double dog" image makes it too busy on the windows edge. I thought I was looking at a two-headed dog at first. I do like the dropped foot into the verbiage. Also, you might want to think of making the verbiage shorter to be contained under the windows ledge. Last comment. The window… is it a window? To the basement? It’s a short window and I am not understanding what you want me to gather from seeing that short window. Why not a dog house door opening? (that’s a rhetorical question)What I am saying is you have an opportunity to say something there. What do you want to say?

Thank you very much for you opinion Vincent! I truly do appreciate your taking the time to let me know what you think! However, I will have to disagree and I think the logo will work beautifully for what I need to accomplish!

I disagree with it being busy. It is a very simple logo and what I love about it is the dogs in the window could stand alone to represent the business if need be. The reason 2 dogs were used was to represent the House of Boxers so 2 works better than one in that it shows multiple boxers can be found here. I didn;t want to go with a logo that was streamlined. I wanted something inviting, warm, attractive, memorable and artistic and I think I have it here.

Shortening the verbage to me would not make the logo as attractive. The idea of the window being situated where it is, is to draw attention to the word Boxer since that is the fancy I am trying to attract as customers.

The window is representative of an old stone building like you would find in Germany where the breed originated. The window is only short because that is how the artist creatively incorporated it . I don`t want to use a dog house because for one - it is so common for doggy related businesses to use a doghouse and I want to be different, and two - a doghouse would defeat the purpose of the window being represented of the word Haus which means House in German.

What do I want to say? I do believe I am saying it with a picture and logo incorporated together both of which could also stand on their own. I am saying this is the House of Boxers and the logo is represented of that:

1) The puppies show the boxer is the breed the store is about (and that we aren`t about prize fighters or underwear).

2) The window represents an old stone house which is commmon in Europe.

3) The word "Haus" is represented of Germany where the breed orginated.

4) And the word "Boxer" speaks for itself.

5) The window was placed strategically mounted on the B and the H to further represent it as a window - as if the B and H were part of the building structure under the window.

6) The puppy reaching down into the verbage helps to direct the eye to the BoxerHaus name.

I personally feel the artist was brilliant in how she came up with all of the above to allow the logo to work with the store name and to leave an imprint with the customer so that the name is not easily forgotton. Additionally, it has been commenetd to me by others who have seen the final logo that the rich earth tone colors used in the logo design give it a warm and cozy feeling when they go to the site!

Your logo has to be able to hit multiple forms of media and not look cheesy. This design works great. It doesn`t have 256 colors in it, its colors appear to be traditional (more web friendly) colors that work well on the webpage as well as print, and if converted to black and white it doesn`t lose any detail. In fact you could take out all of the colors except the black and it would make an awesome single color illustration. The illustration doesn`t need the name under it to hold its own. I personally like it. Its a lot less busy than the last one.

Thank you Engraver!! I think it will work out great and I am glad you like it. I am finding that just about everyone so far who has seen the final logo, do like it and agree it works well with the website! It does print very well in black and white or even just in browns so I can use it in color printing as well as B/W and it will still be attractive. I am truly very pleased with the artists end result!

First let me say thank you to everyone who has posted on this subject! However, I have found that many people are still referring to the original logo design when posting and not realizing that I changed the logo to the current one being used at www.boxerhaus.com now. To prevent further confusion I updated the link of the original logo to explain to anyone who goes there that this is not the logo currently being discussed but it is there should anyone be curious to see it.

Is that a boxer puppy? It looks a little like a St. Bernard....I might go with a type solution for your logo...and let your products and perhaps reader photos of their boxers speak to the warmth and cuteness of the Boxer...Take another look at the boxer on www.the-petset.com...I think you`ll see we used the AKC standard as our guide.

Thank you for your input Kim, it is very much appreciated! And in answer to your question, yes they are boxer puppies and not adult boxers in the logo. The artist, like myself, is a boxer breeder of several champion boxers and current dog show exhibitor and I feel she has captured the breed very well in puppy form. She certainly should know the Boxer Standard since she is as involved with the breed as closely as I am.

The reason for choosing a puppy for the logo as opposed to an adult boxer was, believe it or not, the ears. Since boxer people vary on their preference of cropped and uncropped ears, by using a puppy, the artist felt it was safe for both preferences since puppies are naturally born uncropped of course!

Nice to know there are fellow boxer lovers and owners out there! The boxer certainly is a breed very near and dear to my heart and it is always a pleasure to "meet" others who have the same passion for these wonderful family members.

Thanks HDean! Great link to give examples of logo identity! I know the logo I decided on is not streamlined like the examples you shared, but I didn`t want streamlined for my store. I chose to go with warm, fun, and inviting - at least I hope I accomplished this!

With regards to the same, all of the boxer owners I queried outside of SUN on the final logo loved it so I think I accomplished what I had hoped for. If BoxerHaus.com ever goes corporate, I expect I would then have to change the logo to a more streamlined design but for now, I am content with the one I have chosen.

I tried a little stylization of your logo, Showboxers. I tried a more stained glass effect with the dog but it came out looking like bad modern art. Here`s what I did come up with in terms of stylizing it up a little bit.

I apologize if it looks bad in any way and while I`m sure mchutch would definitely do a better job, this is my little crack it. I can try a little font redesign too.

---"Forget inspirational quotes to keep you going. If by doing what you do, you get an hour every day to relax, be with the ones you love in comfort without doing wrong, then it is all worth it." -Anon.

I like the design.Remember though, that`s a full color CYMK logo right? or is it RGB? regardless of what it is...It`s going to be pricey when you start printing out Marketing stuff for your company.I would go with something two color or one color, it does look good for a web site splash page. Let`s animated it, in flash...

---Edgar Monroy
Web Developer / Owner / Consultant
When starting your own business the need to "know-how" is greater than money!
http://www.nuevolution.net

Yes, the image is nice for t-shirts, Cups, and promotional items, but remember you will run into high prices just because it`s a full color logo. for 1000 business cards you will be looking at around $180.00 as to having a two color logo, it would run you about $59.00 dollars. Big difference, so imagine you decide to hire 4 people with their own business cards. It will get in the 600`s very easy.

Like everyone is saying stick to something, that even if you don`t put the name of your company, they will still know it`s you. It took me 14 Logo designs, before landing the Logo that represents my company. It also took time and money for branding and marketing my logo. Now at times I don`t have to incude the name "nuevolution web design & Consulting" I`ve tried using the logo by itself and people did recognize my company. I have some good logos, if you`d like I can send you samples... of what may work for your company...

---Edgar Monroy
Web Developer / Owner / Consultant
When starting your own business the need to "know-how" is greater than money!
http://www.nuevolution.net

I just happened to come upon this posting and I took a look at your logo. I am a creative director and graphic designer.

To be really honest, it is not a logo. It is an illustration with type at the bottom of it.
The font is very illustrative and hard to read.
A logo is a visual mark that represents your brand. Simpler is better for logos.
Does your mark hold together as a unit? Since your business deals with
boxers, I would focus on the boxer and simpler type. That doesn’t mean
it should lose it`s character. I like the Elusive Treasures logo
because it simple to read but it still tells me that it has something
to do with antiques or hand crafts because of the type treatment. The
Nuevolution logo is a solid logo as well, it says technology to me.

Other things you will have to consider is how will the logo hold up
when it is reduced very small like it would be on a business card or on
a web page.
How will it look when you don`t have the luxury of 4-color printing? A
true test of a logo is how does it look in black and white or one
color? for when you print out invoices, shipping labels, flyers, etc.

Actually, I can visualize all the logos of all the .com companies listed by TJG.

I have to disagree with the idea that a logo is not as important to an online
business as it is to a brick and mortar store. The Amazon logo though
it looks deceptively simple went through a lot of design iterations
before arriving at this. It is not only a smile but the arrow points to
"everything from A to Z" which was one of the goals of Amazon. I should
know, I worked on the early logo designs with a team of designers at a
Seattle design firm I used to work for prior to starting my own studio.
Jeff Bezos had retained several design firms in town to explore logo
designs because he thought the logo was important enough to do so. You
know you have a shipment from Amazon when you see the logo on the side
of the box.

Hotwire has a red arrow, it is an offshoot of Expedia.com. Ebay and
Priceline are nondescript logos. They have managed to promote their
brand through heavy marketing. Priceline does it with William Shatner
as a spokesperson (creepy if you ask me). Most startups do not have the
budget to do that. These sites are also function based "get the
cheapest price" sites so they do not necessarily have to look good,
just functional.

Boxerhaus seems like at first glance a niche market, and it is what
could be a boutique specialty store (Beth, please correct me if I am
wrong). So, it would not necessarily be the place to get cheapest
things. The logo should convey a sense of being a premium store for
owners of boxers. I do agree with TJG that a memorable name is
important too, but that is a given when building your brand and only
part of the story. A logo is also important to building a brand, even
more so when as a startup you don`t have a large marketing budget. It
is only one of the components in a brand but it is one of the first
calling cards or impressions a business can make to an audience or
customer base.

Beth has a great name for her busines, all she needs now is a logo (not an illustration with type attached to it).

I think Beth already has someone on board that is helping her with logo design. She just needs some art direction.

I also do not think that she needs a "corporate" logo.An example of a logo that is hardly corporate looking and has character it (and incidently that uses a boxer in it`s logo) can be found at www.baguettebox.com.They have excellent gourmet baguette sandwiches. There is something quirky, charming and boutique feeling about the logo, not corporate at all. The site was designed by a design colleague of mine. I don`t know who designed the logo but I think Eric the owner/chef may have started it and it was refined by the designer.

Beth, I hope this example helps as reference and it helps you to develop your own unique logo for your own business.

I think it is up to Beth to decide if she needs a professional designer to help design her logo. All she had asked for in this forum was for some opinions, advice and suggestions for her logo not a total logo redesign. We have all given her ideas and suggestions.

Over the years, in a my previous big agency life, I have designed logo identities for online-only businesses that do not appear on my site (www.onvia.com is one example). The work on my website is only the most current projects I have completed. Of the company logos that I have designed that appear on my site, the only company that has a "brick and mortar" store is a restaurant, O’Asian. The other companies have goods, products or services they promote or sell on their web sites but no physical retail store.

I guess the Hotwire logo was so memorable that all I could remember was red and something pointing up (airplane, arrow, etc.)

I agree with you Vince.4-color logo or not, I have received a lot of badly designed logos and business cards. Also,
I would add don`t skimp on the paper. Cheap paper just makes a business
look cheap. Think about it, a business card is sometimes one of the
first impressions of your brand. What do you want your brand perception
to be?

I do think the final identity image (now on your site) is a huge improvement over the original illustration you invited the SuN gang to review. The end result does look nice as a header on your web site. Still (I`m with Vincent on this one), I do think it is a much more complicated image than I would ever present/suggest to a client as a true "logo."

When I create a logo for a client I do avoid the "bell and whistle" software treatments used by many - like 3-D effects, bevels, patterns in text, detailed illustrations, etc. Simplicity is the common element in most successful and memorable logo images. It`s all part of what I was taught in design school 30 years ago as the K.I.S.S. principle of design. I also make sure a logo is easily reproduced, and has readabilty, down to less than one inch in size. I let clients know that I am not creating a logo only for their web presence - but also for the stationery, business collateral, advertising signage, possible use as a silk-screened or embroidered image and so much more. I won`t even consider the color treatment of a logo design until a client has approved the design in black and white. If a logo is not successful in conveying what is needed/desired in one color, adding multiple colors is not likely to make it any better. There is also still a need for a logo to reproduce well as a one color image for purposes such as one-color newspare ads, clear and readable photocopies, strong fax imagery and more.

I do think the image you selected will serve you well and will be successful in identifying your business. The creation of a business identity and brand is an evolving process. Many seem to think the selection of a logo design is something that is set in stone. Well, it isn`t - unless you literally have the design selected etched or carved into stone. Logos do often invite or require changes or alterations over time. I`ve even been asked to re-design several of the hundreds of logos I`ve created during my career as they may need freshening up after a decade or so, there`s a tweaking of the business name, the scope of the business has changed, or other factors. It`s all about creating a current image that will best serve a client`s business needs and requirements.

Best of luck with your new business image - and thank you for sharing the process with all of us.

Don`t worry about printing as much as you worry about logo branding quality.

BINGO!

And printing a successful (and reasonably priced) project is often the result of developing a good relationship with a printer or print rep. For the client not familiar with working with print houses it often best to rely on the recommendations of your designer or a designer you know - instead of just running your project down to the corner quick print shop.

I`ve been working with printers for over 30 years and have only run into one real "con artist" - and I never did business with his firm again. I worked with great large print houses doing press runs of one million pieces on a job. My favorite print shop is a little two-man, two-color press operation that takes incredible pride in what they allow to go out their door as a finished product. I have print reps I`ve worked with for 10, 12 and 16 years. These individuals have become friends who are looking out for my best interests as a business person as much as they are trying to sell their product.

ALWAYS get multiple estimates on a print job. If you get high bid from a printer with whom you would like to work, take the lower bid of the other printer back the them and ask if they can match or beat the competitor`s estimate. Sometimes they simply can`t offer a comparable price (often due to some of the reasons Vincent listed in his post), but they`ve always been upfront with me.

I`ve always prided myself in the quality of my design work. Working with a quality printer just makes me look that much better - and better serves my client`s needs.

Thanks for posting the link to Luka`s work. I`d lost track of the firm`s URL when the company name was changed (from Yellofish) and have often wanted to include some of their work as illustrative elements in articles I write about identity and logo design.

In defense of Mary, I`m sure she is doing fine as it is and while I`m sure there were good intentions on TJ`s part, it wouldn`t be fair to her to just donate time while sacrificing current clientele at her practice. It doesn`t make her a bad person if she doesn`t. But it takes more time than most people are led to believe to do a logo. I`m not just talking a simple 10 hour of work either guys.

The creativity field is often underappreciated but yet it has such a powerful impact on the world we live in. As Fast Company`s latest issue said, "Designers are the new rock stars." Tom Peters and Dan Pink pretty much said the same thing in their books as well. So, big shout to all the creative right brained professionals such as interior designers, graphic designers, web designers who aren`t appreciated by their clients

H. Dean -

So very true. While I do often give business advice, and serve on informal advisory groups, for the businesses of friends, I seldom have the time to "donate" my services to other for-profit ventures. I`m always suggesting that "creative types" carefully select nonprofit causes, in which they have a passion, as vehicles for donating their services. In fact, my bLog-oMotives entry today was on the topic: Designing pro bono projects for "win-win" results

Loved your "designers are the new rock stars" mention. I`ve heard it before. Four years ago I was speaking, as part of a panel of four designers, to over 700 international design industry conference attendees. At the end of the session a large group gathered around the stage to get our autographs. When I left to find a book editor friend of mine, I found her leaning against a wall laughing. She looked at me and said, "You guys are like rock stars!" I`m still not real comfortable with the autograph thing - but it happens more all the time.

By the way, Dan Pink is an incredible speaker. He spoke at the same design conference two years ago.

I have to admit that I haven`t read through all 3 pages of these posts, but one reply from Nuevolution at the beginning caught my eye. I`d like to let everyone in on a little secret relevant to the conversation.

Print shops are major con-artists

...generally speaking of course.

One "printer trick" is that full color costs more than 1 or 2 color printing. Printers typically price everything on a cost basis so that they can nickel and dime you to death and keep you from accurately comparing one company`s price to anothers. In short, it sucks...and isn`t true!

In fact, full color (also known as 4-color printing) shouldn`t cost any more. We`re talking about ounces of ink, not pounds. 4 inks used to make full color printing doesn`t really cost any more than 1 or 2 colors of ink. In some cases, it`s less expensive!

Full color logos look great! I read some comments about how logos should be simple, look good in one color and full color and also communicate your message clearly. I couldn`t agree more with all of these statements. I`d just like to encourage people to keep from limiting themselves because of a gimmick that printers have used for years.