laren

I think he loves unconditionally, but that doesn't mean he doesn't know where to draw the line.

37 "O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, the one who kills the prophets and stones those who are sent to her! How often I wanted to gather your children together, as a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, but you were not willing! 38 See! Your house is left to you desolate; 39 for I say to you, you shall see Me no more till you say, 'Blessed is He who comes in the name of the LORD!'"--Matt 23

But the line has been drawn and completed. The old is done with; the new is here to stay.

The reason those who have heard and haven't "changed" and continue on in sin haven't actually heard it. Just because someone proclaims the Lord's name doesn't mean they have.

Not only that, evil is a perspective. Hittler's followers thought of him as righteous. Those wth power are always considered holy or abominable depending on whoever is judging them.

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What about them? There are a handful of people who are suppressing all of humanity for their own ends. They create wars, fund both sides, make a killing literally and figuratively, withhold technology, allow children to die of starvation and lack of medicine, cause horrible suffering and destruction on purpose. These are the people Jesus identifies as being like their father the devil.

ActuLLY Jesus identifies the Jews as that;

John 8: 37 "I know that you are Abraham's descendants; yet you seek to kill Me, because My word has no place in you.

38"I speak the things which I have seen with My Father; therefore you also do the things which you heard from your father."

39They answered and said to Him, "Abraham is our father " Jesus said to them, "If you are Abraham's children, do the deeds of Abraham.

40"But as it is, you are seeking to kill Me, a man who has told you the truth, which I heard from God; this Abraham did not do.

41"You are doing the deeds of your father " They said to Him, "We were not born of fornication; we have one Father: God."

42Jesus said to them, "If God were your Father, you would love Me, for I proceeded forth and have come from God, for I have not even come on My own initiative, but He sent Me.

43"Why do you not understand what I am saying? It is because you cannot hear My word.

44"You are of your father the devil, and you want to do the desires of your father He was a murderer from the beginning, and does not stand in the truth because there is no truth in him Whenever he speaks a lie, he speaks from his own nature, for he is a liar and the father of lies."

Jesus is identifying the Jew for not being like Abraham and listening to God's truth. Just as Adam and Eve came forth from God yet they were obedient to the devil they were honoring the devil therefore He became their serogate father, this is what Jesus was chaging the Jew with.

As far as you personally judging who is evil, that's not even your right if you are claiming to be in love with Jesus;

2 Corinhians 5:14 "For the love of Christ controls us, having concluded this, that one died for all, therefore all died;

15 and He died for all, so that they who live might no longer live for themselves, but for Him who died and rose again on their behalf.

16 Therefore from now on we recognize no one according to the flesh;"

Jesus died for all, therefore all died. He was raised for all therefore they were all raised. That is why none are recognizable to us who know Christ according to there own standing. To us we only see them as raised unto perfection.

« Last Edit: June 29, 2008, 08:10:41 AM by Dallas »

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laren

Hi Dallas--could you just explain to me, if everything is completed and Jesus is reigning--why is the world in such bad shape with unspeakably evil people still running around doing unspeakably evil things?

I'm still confused by what you are saying, I guess.

I expect his kingdom to rule on earth one day.

I think this a very valid question. I participate at a universalist/fulfilled forum where these type of questions can further be explored for any interested.

I have never heard the description above, as "nations" referring to non hebrew and "earth" to hebrew. do you come to that conclusion through scriptural comparison? or how do you come to that conclusion??

thanks for your reply, and I see as as basically "children" of the new covenant. I think that's kind of what u were saying too.

any way you look at it, imo; GOD is LOVE, and he is at PEACE with us. I agree; we are not all at peace with HIM, but LOVE is exponential imo.

Glad to see ya back online.

Spiritual Coomparison? What is that?

Just as many words develop throughout scripture, like water and fire and more and more types and shades of dynamics are added to the significane of the meanings until an ultimate giant concept is displayed.

Have you read the chapter on prophetic language by David Chilton in his book Paradise restored? If you have you'll get what I'm talking about, if not, definatley read it. I'll post some of it here...

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laren

I have never heard the description above, as "nations" referring to non hebrew and "earth" to hebrew. do you come to that conclusion through scriptural comparison? or how do you come to that conclusion??

thanks for your reply, and I see as as basically "children" of the new covenant. I think that's kind of what u were saying too.

any way you look at it, imo; GOD is LOVE, and he is at PEACE with us. I agree; we are not all at peace with HIM, but LOVE is exponential imo.

Glad to see ya back online.

Spiritual Coomparison? What is that?

Just as many words develop throughout scripture, like water and fire and more and more types and shades of dynamics are added to the significane of the meanings until an ultimate giant concept is displayed.

Have you read the chapter on prophetic language by David Chilton in his book Paradise restored? If you have you'll get what I'm talking about, if not, definatley read it. I'll post some of it here...

I tried reading some of Chilton in the past, but i really struggle reading stuff off internet, rather than paper.

I would love for u to post some of it re: this question.

"spiritual comparison", ha, ha "scriptural" is what I meant, actually what i wrote i think; i'll go check.

but basically what u said; as you read verses, one gets a clearer understanding;

well, I think those that practice brainwashing would like us to think so--that reality is somehow malleable--but I disagree with that,-- reality is a child's leg blown off and a mother's tears.

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But the line has been drawn and completed. The old is done with; the new is here to stay.

I agree that the new is here to stay, but I don't see where it is running the world yet.

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John 8: 37 "I know that you are Abraham's descendants; yet you seek to kill Me, because My word has no place in you

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16 Therefore from now on we recognize no one according to the flesh;"

Jesus is saying we are identified as Abraham's children according to the spirit, not the flesh. Abraham's children would honor Christ as their father did. It is the children of the promise who are Abraham's children--and, that, by the grace of God.

Matthew 3:9And think not to say within yourselves, We have Abraham to our father: for I say unto you, that God is able of these stones to raise up children unto Abraham.

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As far as you personally judging who is evil, that's not even your right if you are claiming to be in love with Jesus;.....

16 Therefore from now on we recognize no one according to the flesh;"

I think it might be ok to judge by the spirit. Wouldn't that be judging in righteousness? How else are we to learn to discern between good and evil as Paul exhorts us to do? I think that when we see lies, we are suppose to name the truth, when we see evil, we are suppose to expose it to the light. It worries me that Christians bounce between being too self righteously aggressive and too passive, leaving everything to God. Aren't we the agents of Jesus Christ on this earth?

1 Corinthians 6:3Know ye not that we shall judge angels? how much more things that pertain to this life?

Evil is evil, but there are many people who do evil, who themselves are not evil. There is bundled up in the minds of men, constant either/or fallacy, in which 'grey' or 'colour' does not exist, only black and white. That doesn't mean that evil is still not evil, we just are unable or unwilling to see an alternative.

Not black and white, you say--people have families, jobs, and lives--nobody is perfect. Yet, every man will come to a point where he must tell the truth or lie, and any truth that matters is always costly. What decision will he make? Whether to take the easy way and lie, or risk everything to tell the truth,--this is where the rubber meets the road.

Luke 9:24For whosoever will save his life shall lose it: but whosoever will lose his life for my sake, the same shall save it.

37 "O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, the one who kills the prophets and stones those who are sent to her! How often I wanted to gather your children together, as a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, but you were not willing! 38 See! Your house is left to you desolate; 39 for I say to you, you shall see Me no more till you say, 'Blessed is He who comes in the name of the LORD!'"--Matt 23

This Blindness of CHRIST in ISRAEL, is IMPOSEDupon them BY GOD, and in the chronology of the manifestation of His PURPOSE in TIME, is later LIFTEDfrom them, ...BY GOD ('till you say', "blessed is He who comes in the name of the Lord")...

Paul notes this "lifting" ...(Rom 11:25-33)... GLORIFYING His COMPLETE, IMPARTIAL, ...and ALL ENCOMPASSING Salvation... Placing the First (Jews) as last, and the Last (Gentiles) as first...

20 Then the LORD said: "I have pardoned, according to your word; 21 but truly, as I live, all the earth shall be filled with the glory of the LORDó 22 because all these men who have seen My glory and the signs which I did in Egypt and in the wilderness, and have put Me to the test now these ten times, and have not heeded My voice, 23 they certainly shall not see the land of which I swore to their fathers,nor shall any of those who rejected Me see it.

26 And the LORD spoke to Moses and Aaron, saying, 27 "How long shall I bear with this evil congregation who complain against Me? I have heard the complaints which the children of Israel make against Me. 28 Say to them, 'As I live,' says the LORD, 'just as you have spoken in My hearing, so I will do to you: 29 The carcasses of you who have complained against Me shall fall in this wilderness, all of you who were numbered, according to your entire number, from twenty years old and above. 30 Except for Caleb the son of Jephunneh and Joshua the son of Nun, you shall by no means enter the land which I swore I would make you dwell in. 31 But your little ones, whom you said would be victims, I will bring in, and they shall know the land which you have despised. 32 But as for you, your carcasses shall fall in this wilderness. 33 And your sons shall be shepherds in the wilderness forty years, and bear the brunt of your infidelity, until your carcasses are consumed in the wilderness. 34 According to the number of the days in which you spied out the land, forty days, for each day you shall bear your guilt one year, namely forty years, and you shall know My rejection. 35 I the LORD have spoken this. I will surely do so to all this evil congregation who are gathered together against Me. In this wilderness they shall be consumed, and there they shall die.'" 36 Now the men whom Moses sent to spy out the land, who returned and made all the congregation complain against him by bringing a bad report of the land, 37 those very men who brought the evil report about the land, died by the plague before the LORD. 38 But Joshua the son of Nun and Caleb the son of Jephunneh remained alive, of the men who went to spy out the land.

laren

20 Then the LORD said: "I have pardoned, according to your word; 21 but truly, as I live, all the earth shall be filled with the glory of the LORDó 22 because all these men who have seen My glory and the signs which I did in Egypt and in the wilderness, and have put Me to the test now these ten times, and have not heeded My voice, 23 they certainly shall not see the land of which I swore to their fathers,nor shall any of those who rejected Me see it.

26 And the LORD spoke to Moses and Aaron, saying, 27 "How long shall I bear with this evil congregation who complain against Me? I have heard the complaints which the children of Israel make against Me. 28 Say to them, 'As I live,' says the LORD, 'just as you have spoken in My hearing, so I will do to you: 29 The carcasses of you who have complained against Me shall fall in this wilderness, all of you who were numbered, according to your entire number, from twenty years old and above. 30 Except for Caleb the son of Jephunneh and Joshua the son of Nun, you shall by no means enter the land which I swore I would make you dwell in. 31 But your little ones, whom you said would be victims, I will bring in, and they shall know the land which you have despised. 32 But as for you, your carcasses shall fall in this wilderness. 33 And your sons shall be shepherds in the wilderness forty years, and bear the brunt of your infidelity, until your carcasses are consumed in the wilderness. 34 According to the number of the days in which you spied out the land, forty days, for each day you shall bear your guilt one year, namely forty years, and you shall know My rejection. 35 I the LORD have spoken this. I will surely do so to all this evil congregation who are gathered together against Me. In this wilderness they shall be consumed, and there they shall die.'" 36 Now the men whom Moses sent to spy out the land, who returned and made all the congregation complain against him by bringing a bad report of the land, 37 those very men who brought the evil report about the land, died by the plague before the LORD. 38 But Joshua the son of Nun and Caleb the son of Jephunneh remained alive, of the men who went to spy out the land.

you say that you see the "Ishmaels" and the "Isaacs" are still existing side by side still. We are told who the "Ishmaels" are:

Gal 4:22 For it is written, that Abraham had two sons, the one by a bondmaid, the other by a freewoman.

Gal 4:23 But he who was of the bondwoman was born after the flesh; but he of the freewoman was by promise.

Gal 4:24 Which things are an allegory: for these are the two covenants; the one from the mount Sinai, which engendereth to bondage, which is Hagar.

Gal 4:25 For this Hagar is mount Sinai in Arabia, and answereth to Jerusalem which now is, and is in bondage with her children.

Gal 4:30 Nevertheless what saith the Scripture? Cast out the bondwoman and her son: for the son of the bondwoman shall not be heir with the son of the freewoman.

So, just who are these "Ishmaels" in your opinion? Who is that God made a covenant with, now; that still are living under that covenant (out of ignorance).

Who do you see these "Ishmaels" as??

And how do you handle all the scripture referring to the "soon" coming of Christ to abolish the old, which was "vanishing away, yet still defer it to 2000 plus years.

Were the apostles wrong in their time predictions??

Heb 1:1-2 God, who at various times and in various ways spoke in time past to the fathers by the prophets, has in these last days spoken to us by His Son, whom He has appointed heir of all things, through whom also He made the worlds;

Act 3:24 Yes, and all the prophets, from Samuel and those who follow, as many as have spoken, have also foretold these days.

1Pet 1:20 He indeed was foreordained before the foundation of the world, but was manifest in these last times for you.

1Cor 10:11 Now all these things happened to them as examples, and they were written for our admonition, upon whom the ends of the ages have come.

Heb 9:26 He then would have had to suffer often since the foundation of the world; but [u]now[/u], once at the end of the ages, He has appeared to put away sin by the sacrifice of Himself.

Jas 5:3 Your gold and silver are corroded, and their corrosion will be a witness against you and will eat your flesh like fire. You have heaped up treasure in the last days.

1Jn 2:18 Little children, it is the last hour; and as you have heard that the Antichrist is coming, even now many antichrists have come, by which we know that it is the last hour.

Interestingly to me, that in Matthew, Jesus says no one knows the "hour", but yet less than 40 years later; it "is the last hour".

Dan 12:4 "But you, Daniel, shut up the words, and seal the book until the time of the end; many shall run to and fro, and knowledge shall increase."

Mt 24:34 Assuredly, I say to you, this generation will by no means pass away till all these things take place.

Jn 14:19 "A little while longer and the world will see Me no more, but you will see Me. Because I live, you will live also."

Heb 10:25 Not forsaking the assembling of ourselves together, as is the manner of some, but exhorting one another, and so much the more as you see the Day approaching.

Heb 10:36-37 For you have need of endurance, so that after you have done the will of God, you may receive the promise: "For yet a little while, And He who is coming will come and will not tarry."

Rom 13:11-12 And do this, knowing the time, that now it is high time to awake out of sleep; for now our salvation is nearer than when we first believed. The night is far spent, the day is at hand. Therefore let us cast off the works of darkness, and let us put on the armour of light.

Rom 16:20 And the God of peace will crush Satan under your feet shortly. The grace of our Lord Jesus Christ be with you. Amen.

Jas 5:7-9 Therefore be patient, brethren, until the coming of the Lord. See how the farmer waits for the precious fruit of the earth, waiting patiently for it until it receives the early and latter rain. You also be patient. Establish your hearts, for the coming of the Lord is at hand. Do not grumble against one another, brethren, lest you be condemned. Behold, the Judge is standing at the door!

why would James tell them to be patient "until" the coming, if the coming wasn't yet for more than 2000 years.

1Pet 4:7 But the end of all things is at hand; therefore be serious and watchful in your prayers.

Phil 4:5 Let your gentleness be known to all men. The Lord is at hand.

1Cor 1:4-8 I thank my God always concerning you for the grace of God which was given to you by Christ Jesus, That you were enriched in everything by Him in all utterance and all knowledge, Even as the testimony of Christ was confirmed in you, So that you come short in no gift, eagerly waiting for the revelation of our Lord Jesus Christ, Who will also confirm you to the end, that you may be blameless in the day of our Lord Jesus Christ.

1Cor 7:29 But this I say, brethren, the time is short, so that from now on even those who have wives should be as though they had none,

Rev 1:1 The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave Him to show His servants--things which must shortly take place. And He sent and signified it by His angel to His servant John,

Rev 1:3 Blessed is he who reads and those who hear the words of this prophecy, and keep those things which are written in it; for the time is near.

Rev 22:10 And he said to me, "Do not seal the words of the prophecy of this book, for the time is at hand.

and on and on....

I understand your view, by looking at the world and applying your paradigm to it.

but;

I have a hard time seeing that all these "imminent" scriptures are yet to have happened;

I see the 'Ishmael' as the flesh. God's covenant [with Abraham] was with the spirit.

John 4:23But the hour cometh, and now is, when the true worshippers shall worship the Father in spirit and in truth: for the Father seeketh such to worship him.

The apostles were right--soon is soon--or 'quickly-'-and, they did, indeed, see the resurrected Christ.

From the time Christ began his ministry, the kingdom was 'at hand'--right next to you.

These are the 'last times,' 'the ends of the ages.' So has it been for 2000 years (two days).

The antichrist reared his ugly head while Jesus was still walking out his ministry. He is still present in the world now.

Jn 14:19 "A little while longer and the world will see Me no more, but you will see Me. Because I live, you will live also."

Those who know Jesus, do see him. It is his spirit we are seeing and comparing to every other spirit in the world--using it as a touchstone. Some who are more fortunate see him fully realized in his resurrected body.

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I understand your view, by looking at the world and applying your paradigm to it.

I don't have a 'paradigm.' I just look and see what I see.

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I have a hard time seeing that all these "imminent" scriptures are yet to have happened;

They have happened to thousands of people. But the world is still ruled by satan--at least on the surface of things.

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these types of scriptures have led me to question my paradigm.

Not sure what this means. Just because the mountain of God has not yet filled the world doesn't mean that it isn't in the process of happening. Do you have a new paradigm?