For the record, changeup guys like Peavy and Johan shouldn't even be brought up. Filthy is having stuff people couldn't hit even if they knew it was coming. Changeups are basically deception. Both can be very effective... but tricking someone and throwing a 80mph fastball is not filthy.

I think tinfoil has a great point here. The point of filthy is that it is unhittable not just trickery. Something like a split-finger, the hitter knows it's a fastball but then it's in the dirt and you're swinging over the top of it. Clemens, Lowe, Haren and Harden's infamous "spluckle" all come to mind when i think of naaasty splits.

tinfoilxtouch wrote:For the record, changeup guys like Peavy and Johan shouldn't even be brought up. Filthy is having stuff people couldn't hit even if they knew it was coming. Changeups are basically deception. Both can be very effective... but tricking someone and throwing a 80mph fastball is not filthy.

People know Johan is going to throw his change-up. They just can't hit it. All pitches are deception except for perhaps Mariano's cutter. Pitchers all have at least 2 or 3 pitches so that they can keep batters guessing and off-balance.

tinfoilxtouch wrote:For the record, changeup guys like Peavy and Johan shouldn't even be brought up. Filthy is having stuff people couldn't hit even if they knew it was coming. Changeups are basically deception. Both can be very effective... but tricking someone and throwing a 80mph fastball is not filthy.

tinfoilxtouch wrote:For the record, changeup guys like Peavy and Johan shouldn't even be brought up. Filthy is having stuff people couldn't hit even if they knew it was coming. Changeups are basically deception. Both can be very effective... but tricking someone and throwing a 80mph fastball is not filthy.

Peavy's not a changeup guy, he mainly throws a 2-seamer and a hard slider. And they're both filthy.

I have to go with Zambrano. He couldn't throw a ball straight if his life depended on it. Everything moves. He has terrible control and people still can't hit him. If he ever grows up, he will win multiple cy's.