MANtisB wrote:A unit tasked with Combat has two jobs: defeating enemy boarders and boarding the enemy ship. Thus, evaluations of combat proficiency should factor in offensive and defensive abilities. The Mantis comes in first; it will win a 1v1 against any non-Mantis, making it the best unit for both offense and defense. That it's the fastest unit helps a lot, as well. Next up is where the split comes in. Rockmen are the next best unit on offense because they win a 1v1 against any non-Mantis non-Rockman unit. However, the Crystal, despite being worse than the Rockman in straightforward combat, gets the edge on defense; its Lockdown ability is key to pinning boarders in a room without a system and killing them before they can do any damage, and its superior movement speed makes it a better defender as well. After the Rockman/Crystal there's Slugs and Humans, edge of course to the Slug slightly; and then rounding out the bottom are Zoltans and Engis. I'm not sure which is worse, only that neither should ever see combat, because they lose to everyone except themselves.

I disagree, I find Crystals to be the best boarders. Of course, you wouldn't want a boarding party of, say, four crystals, you'd want 1-2 crystals and the rest mantis/rockmen.

Lockdown is ridiculously powerful when used offensively. It basically allows you to immediately destroy an unmanned system, or kill the guy manning it, or in some cases both. Using the Crystal B, for example, you can board with two crystal and two mantis, enter the weapon system room, lock it down, kill the gunner, re-lock it down, and destroy the weapon systems. It's unfairly powerful.

Using Mantis in your boarding party is powerful. Using Crystal in the boarding party, however, is like getting a five-power missile with the pre-igniter augment and no chance of missing.

MANtisB wrote:Engi are indisputably the best with full movement and fastest repair speed.

Amen to that. Mantis are hillarious with a wrench, but not in a good way. Rockmen get more than a slight edge because they're immune to fire and have high HP which is why i like a Rock pilot. A cockpit hit with any other results in an nasty injury, trip to medbay, delayed repair. A breach or fire makes it worse. Engi pilots at least move very quickly and repair quickly so they're my 2nd fave pilots.

MANtisB wrote:Zoltans are the best ... because they power the system they're manning.

Strongly disagree. They're a crutch best not relied upon because they die far to easily and at later stages of the game, losing a specialised crewmember can be great loss. The fact that they basically have to be tied to their post also makes them a liability. If i use them at all, it's only in the engine room. Free power is not free if i cant use it during an invasion, hull breach, fire or direct hit to whatever post the Zoltan was at.

MANtisB wrote:Engis are next because they're the fastest repairmen, meaning that if the system they're manning is damaged, they'll be able to get it back online quickly. Mantis get a slight edge in manning weapons because they level up in combat skills faster.

All races level up the same, and Mantis are completely wasted on any manned station since they cant repair it. Engi are the best.

Now i'm just nitpicking. Rocks are way to slow for combat but can defend their post better then anyone (I dont use Mantis on manned posts so they dont count for me). I dont understand why Slugs get an edge over Humans, they fight the same. Best fighters in my troll opinion are Mantis closely followed by Humans and Slugs.

I still havent read why Humans are worst. So i will continue to tout them as 2nd best. 2nd to Mantis in combat, and 2nd to Engi in non-combat. They dont have limitations other races have and to me, that means more than bonuses. Picking up a Human at any stage of the game allways means picking up a usefull crewmember. The others, not quite so.

Humans and slugs don't seem very great at first glance. But in practice they get a ton of points for being the generalists in a game about things not going according to plans. Slugs get the telepathy thing which can be somewhat useful at times while also costing a bit more, but other than that they're the same.

Mantises damage and speed make them hands down the best security unit and probably the best boarders followed closely behind by rockmen. Unfortunately their terrible repair speed and standard health pretty much mean that if they aren't in hand to hand combat (which doesn't actually take up a whole lot of this game), then they aren't doing much.

Rockmen, if you only have one then you might leave him on standby to put out fires but really their slow speed makes them pretty terrible at responding to things. Even at security I find them to be pretty subpar simply due to how poor they are at medibay cycling. A couple of humans can fight off any number of boarders that way, but if a rockman isn't winning the first fight then it's going to be forever before he moseys on back to the medibay, regains his 150 health, and then makes it back to the fray. They can be pretty effective boarders, especially if you are able to start fires, and there are a number of situations where the additional health would actually be preferable to using mantises. Additionally I would mark these guys as the best at manning systems because it's a job where they don't have to move, and thanks to their additional health/fire resistance there is very little that will be able to make them move.

Engis honestly seem almost a little bit over-powered with their repair speed and you really can't go too wrong with a number of them. The only downside is that they are bad at combat, but even then they have enough health/cycling ability to soak up damage for combat-ready units. As long as you have anything else they are probably the best unit in the game.

Zoltans I'm not really a big fan of. Their low health means that they are not only poor at combat but also die far more quickly to things like fire and hull breaches. They are also the only unit I have had trouble with losing just to enemy weapon damage, if you don't pay close attention there are some in the game that will turn Zoltans from "slightly injured" to "green paste" in a single hit. And you'd best believe that as soon as he steps out of a room to run for the medibay all of your power allotments are going to get messed up. Their special abilty can be handy late game once you've maxed out your reactor, but really most of the time I would much rather just buy a human and another bar of energy for about the same price.

I must amend my view of Rocks as boarders. They are more effective then igave them credit for. I was biased agaist them due to their slow speed which hurt me when my boarding plans become a mess. Usually when i screw up i'd like to execute orders fast, and Mantis are gold if you wish to split up the enemy forces or attempt to sneak into their medbay. I never had a pair of Rocks either (just never happened) and it's important to have equal HP boarders since i can't leave one to fight alone, esp if they're slow.

UltraMantis wrote:I still havent read why Humans are worst. So i will continue to tout them as 2nd best. 2nd to Mantis in combat, and 2nd to Engi in non-combat. They dont have limitations other races have and to me, that means more than bonuses. Picking up a Human at any stage of the game allways means picking up a usefull crewmember. The others, not quite so.

Humans are worst because specialization is better than generalization. There's almost never a situation in the game where you need a crew member to fulfill more than one or two tasks at a time.

You always want mantis/rockmen/crystals as combatants, you always want engi/zoltan manning systems, you always want engi on repair duty, and slugs are better than humans with no downside for any extra slots. Humans are only better than an empty slot.

Last edited by Madhax on Tue Oct 23, 2012 4:34 pm, edited 2 times in total.

Madhax wrote:Humans are worst because specialization is better than generalization. There's almost never a situation in the game where you need a crew member to fulfill more than one or two tasks at a time.

This is where we differ. Specialisation is for communists and insects, Humans are dependable in any role and that makes them dear to me. To each his own.

I realize that I probably won't convince you of my line of reasoning, UltraMantis, I just want to clarify my thought process.

In my experience, over the course of a game you'll acquire a wide variety of aliens. Sure, there are exceptions that must be adjusted for (In my most recent game I beat the boss with a crew of four zoltan, three engi, and a human), but usually you'll get the opportunity to customize your crew as much as needed. With a diverse crew, you should be able to offset the downsides of your aliens and simply reap the benefits that they bring.

For example, Engi can't fight worth a damn. That's fine, because chances are your ship will have a couple Mantis or Rockmen to handle a brawl. Mantis can't repair, but chances are you'll have at least one Engi on board who can quickly patch your ship up. Zoltan are fragile, but there are other crew available to stomp out a fire or repel boarders.

If crews were made up of eight of one species, then I'd agree, humans would be one of the better choices. But with the potential for diversity, and the necessity for only 3-4 crew actively manning systems, I see no purpose in valuing versatility over specialization.

I'd hate to further hijack the debate, and lately it's just Madhax and myself shooting back n forth and agreeing to disagree. I though he was shortselling Humans and he thought i was overvaluing their versatility which may not even be a factor in a single game. There was also some disagreement on Zoltan but that is normal. I dont insisnt on being recognised as correct and dont want to appear hostile, and i honestly dont have anything new to add. I'd just like to politely reply to a polite post.

In the end we both fly a ship with a mixed crew, and use each race to it's fullest. The only difference is in how we rate the Humans, but despite that deiference we'd both use the Human in pretty much the same way. No specialist available? Use the Human. The core of the crew is indeed 3-4 members and you use the best available, and "the best" is largely defined by the player's needs and his current situation.

I allways get more crew than i need. Usually 9-12 and the record is 15 in a single run. The only time a crewmember is truly useless is if you get extra Mantis since they suck badly at repairs and you can't realy employ more than 4. One pair for possible defense and the other for assault.

Late in the game, rookies of any race are less usefull but it all depends on the circumstances.