You see, there are a LOT more people that want new dungeons than the amount of people that want harder scenarios.

Dungeons also are content for more people (ie, healers) while scenarios are only for DPS.Scenarios are not fun, not for many of us, you saying they are wont make them fun. Dungeons are fun for many of us, so please stop fooling around and start making the dungeons NOW.

To be fair, Blizzard has numbers that you don't. Your attempting to speak for the entire community. I could argue for "many of us", we don't like dungeons either. They are just a means to valor cap. I'm thrilled when I zone into a dungeon and it's the last boss. But I'm not sure I really speak for that many.

From what I read from Blizzard thus far, is overall, there were no plans for any dungeons past the opening dungeons in MoP. Scenarios didn't suddenly shut dungeons down they were an addition of quick little things that also made for better story telling.

I don't view Dungeons and scenarios in the same light, even though they are closer than Dungeons and pet battles.

I'll take the faster patch releases and better raids at the expensive of dungeons. I don't want another Cata enviroment where we have months on end of nothing but two dungeons (Za and ZG) over and over.

Of course, if the numbers show that the majority of the playerbase really cares more about 5 man dungeons than anything else, then by all means, lets have more dungeons.

You see, there are a LOT more people that want new dungeons than the amount of people that want harder scenarios.

Dungeons also are content for more people (ie, healers) while scenarios are only for DPS.Scenarios are not fun, not for many of us, you saying they are wont make them fun. Dungeons are fun for many of us, so please stop fooling around and start making the dungeons NOW.

To be fair, Blizzard has numbers that you don't. Your attempting to speak for the entire community. I could argue for "many of us", we don't like dungeons either. They are just a means to valor cap. I'm thrilled when I zone into a dungeon and it's the last boss. But I'm not sure I really speak for that many.

From what I read from Blizzard thus far, is overall, there were no plans for any dungeons past the opening dungeons in MoP. Scenarios didn't suddenly shut dungeons down they were an addition of quick little things that also made for better story telling.

I don't view Dungeons and scenarios in the same light, even though they are closer than Dungeons and pet battles.

I'll take the faster patch releases and better raids at the expensive of dungeons. I don't want another Cata enviroment where we have months on end of nothing but two dungeons (Za and ZG) over and over.

Of course, if the numbers show that the majority of the playerbase really cares more about 5 man dungeons than anything else, then by all means, lets have more dungeons.

I never said i was speaking for the whole community. I used terms like "many of us" or " a lot" and not terms like "mayority", "whole" or any other like that.

Also, yes, Blizzard have numbers, and they already said it was a mistake not to make more dungeons.

And yes, dungeons and scenarios are in the same light, they both uses art, bosses mechanics and balance (although less than dungeons in every single item).We are having less dungeons AND one less raid tier than in Wrath, when they said (4 years ago) that they would hire more people to release more content and faster. They are releasing content faster, but at the expense of one of the core elements of the game, which is UNACCEPTABLE.

I would argue about better raids too, ToT is not better than Ulduar.

Cata was the worst expansion, and its unfair that you try to compare MoP with it, but the reason why it was such a bad expansion is because they made the same mistake thay are doing now. They focused too much in one type of content and ignored the rest. They are doing the EXACT same mistake now.

Wrath had more raids, more dungeons and it was a better expansion overall, Wrath just needed faster production and harder heroic raids (except for last bosses).

Now they are trying to make us accept that they stop doing one core element of the game just because it "takes too much effort to continue to do it". Well, i wont accept it, and no one should.

We should not be happy with them making worse quality content so that they have an easier time making content and releasing patches.

I only play WoW with my husband, don't really interact with our guild (only joined for the perks), our only other real-life friend who plays WoW is rarely free to run something at the same time we are.

We haven't even been inside challenge modes because we can't queue for them, even though it sounds like a lot of fun.

You say you don't want to let us queue for heroic scenarios because they are too hard for a random group to complete? People are still going to use random groups. They're just going to have to create them manually by spamming in trade chat. How are those strangers better than the ones you get matched with when queuing?

I never said i was speaking for the whole community. I used terms like "many of us" or " a lot" and not terms like "mayority", "whole" or any other like that.

Ok fair enough, I'll concede that too you.

Also, yes, Blizzard have numbers, and they already said it was a mistake not to make more dungeons.

I don't want to split hairs, but he said he wished they had added dungeon in 5.3 maybe (or 5.4 maybe) that's not completely saying it was a mistake not to make more dungeons. But ok..close enough.

We should not be happy with them making worse quality content so that they have an easier time making content and releasing patches.

And this is where I'll completely disagree with you. What is the wose Quality content ? The raids we have are considered great. We got Pet battles and Brawlers guilds and we got sceneraios and challenge modes. None of which has been view as a failure unless you just don't like them, which doesn't mean we're getting poor quality. I'd say the quailty of content as been pretty great overall. I think your complaint is over quanity.

Again, if the actual majority of people really want dungeons than more dungeons away. I think they are a waste of dev time that could be better spent elsewhere And I think it's a shame that a thread aimed at taking feedback about heroic scenarios needed to get hi-jacked to complain about something that I don't believe there is anyway will get done before the end of the expansion.

You say you don't want to let us queue for heroic scenarios because they are too hard for a random group to complete? People are still going to use random groups. They're just going to have to create them manually by spamming in trade chat. How are those strangers better than the ones you get matched with when queuing?

Because it does add a sense of community, you're intereacting with people that you could very well see again. You could make a new friend out of the process and they could become your new heroic scenarios buddy. People tend to behave better when they are grouped with people on their on servers, mainly for the reasons above. You could still get a douchbag jerk that AFKs the whole time as well, but the odds drop a bit. And that's not even counting the language difference you could get when queing randomly.

I do realize that it is hard to create brand new content and you guys have great ideas! But should blizzard start a creative idea forum chat? This would create idea that would help blizzard come up with models, dungeon set up and new patch ideas. Taking an idea from the public is one of the most important things in a creative game, it would draw in people to say "oh, this is what I was looking for". Of course blizzard does have the people for these ideas but, why not see what people have to say! cause why not? some fun content that wow public can relate to. sorry if this sounded rude.

Quote: "If math seems easy, you are probably doing it wrong"

We consider the entire forums (all of them) to be an opportunity for you all to share your ideas/constructive feedback etc. with us. We're always reading. It's also worth noting that Heroic Scenarios are a first go for us in giving players who want a bit more of a challenge within the Scenarios a way to get it. That said, that doesn't mean that these are the last "new" thing we'll ever add to the game. We're always looking at new ideas or concepts to push the gameplay within World of Warcraft further. We can't talk about all those ideas until we know we are able to make them work and are going to implement them (or at least we try not to if we can), but that doesn't mean we aren't listening or planning on our end too.

I understand that many people would like new dungeons and we've addressed this a few times now, but at this point in time, we're not adding them. We have a lot of other things that we're putting efforts into that we think will be great additions to the game. Again, we're not ready to talk about those just yet, but once we can share that information with you all, we will. For now, we wanted to share a bit more about what the new Scenarios will bring.

If you haven't tried them on the PTR, you may just want to give it a shot. They're fun and add some great story elements as well.

Excellent post! Thank you for shedding some light on this topic. Not that other topics are less important, or that this topic is any less important than those topics either. I feel this topic is equally as important as the other topics. As a whole, topics are important to be addressed. They bring the community together and gives us a little more insight on the your company's direction. While I may or may not agree with every step the company has made, I think you've all put in a lot of hours into your work.

While I am part of this community I do not speak for the community's behalf. Therefor do not take my personal opinion as the community's voice. It can be said that the game changes with each expansion. Some may think change is good. I think change can be both good and bad at times. There are aspects of the game that I find both appealing and some I i think can be improved upon. Not that they are bad. I think overall there is enough content in the game to give players what they're looking for.

One thing we need to remember is that WoW is a game and the ultimate goal is to provide entertainment. I believe each and every member of Blizzard's team offers something unique to add to the "pot" of entertainment and what we, the customer, get is this diverse game. While everyone has different opinions on what makes the game fun, there is at least something for everyone to do. I'd like to make it clear that I am not saying Blizzard is only doing the bare minimum to keep us entertained but rather that there is something we can all enjoy is this game.

I'd just like to reiterate that these ideas and thoughts are my own and in no way express the community's opinion. I think each and every person on these forums have their own ideas and some of them may be great.

I agree with this -- but I think the devs should be very cautious with whatever "usage stats" they employ to make design decisions. Just because a lot of people do something in WoW 5.x does not mean they necessarily enjoy it. Lately I've found myself doing a lot of things I don't enjoy (dailies/scenarios) just to get the stat sticks I need to raid with my friends once a week. The "work to fun" ratio in-game has most definitely taken a turn for the worse as of late. It's been a week since I last logged in now, mostly because I'd rather do anything on the planet than perform the now-exorbitant number of video game chores necessary to get the gear needed to perform adequately in the actually fun part of the game (raiding with friends). Grinding on a semi-daily basis just so I can qualify to participate in the once-a-week thing I actually want to do in game does not feel at all like a wise investment of my leisure time, regardless of how fun that once-a-week experience is. We used to be able to do that "grinding" exclusively through 5-mans, but that didn't feel like grinding to me, because that was actually stuff I enjoyed doing anyway.

In other words, Blizzard has succeeded in giving me an abundance of things to do in MoP, but none of it is particularly compelling, and it has caused one of the most popular features of WoW (5-mans) to fall into development limbo. As a result, and in spite of all their good intentions, all the devs really seem to have done is replace one evil (losing subs because people have capped out and are bored) with another (losing subs because there are just too many boring in-game chores to do to get to the fun stuff).

(Also, as a bit of an aside, there appears to be a bit of a design conflict when Ghostcrawler uses a "we don't want every 'class X' player to be the same" rationale for denying tri-spec, while at the same time shoehorning players into having a DPS spec to be effective in a large percentage of the current [and upcoming] content. I really enjoyed having a prot/holy paladin and a holy/disc priest up until this xpac, but neither are at all effective in efficiently clearing scenario/daily content).

I get the rationale behind the move to scenarios -- people who DPS outnumber healers and tanks, and DPS queue times for "traditional" PVE content has become far too long -- but scenarios certainly are not more compelling content to those of us who have taken the time to learn the intricacies of healing and aggro management, and find real satisfaction in participating in a good, coordinated dungeon run or raid.

On the flip side... as reflected by the queue times, maybe the number of players who share my appreciation for certain aspects of the game is so small now that catering to what we feel makes the game fun is no longer a prudent business decision. I guess the proof will be in subscription stats going forward. /shrug

Lately I've found myself doing a lot of things I don't enjoy (dailies/scenarios) just to get the stat sticks I need to raid with my friends once a week. The "work to fun" ratio in-game has most definitely taken a turn for the worse as of late. It's been a week since I last logged in now, mostly because I'd rather do anything on the planet than perform the now-exorbitant number of video game chores necessary to get the gear needed to perform adequately in the actually fun part of the game (raiding with friends). Grinding on a semi-daily basis just so I can qualify to participate in the once-a-week thing I actually want to do in game does not feel at all like a wise investment of my leisure time, regardless of how fun that once-a-week experience is. We used to be able to do that "grinding" exclusively through 5-mans, but that didn't feel like grinding to me, because that was actually stuff I enjoyed doing anyway.

In other words, Blizzard has succeeded in giving me an abundance of things to do in MoP, but none of it is particularly compelling, and it has caused one of the most popular features of WoW (5-mans) to fall into development limbo. As a result, and in spite of all their good intentions, all the devs really seem to have done is replace one evil (losing subs because people have capped out and are bored) with another (losing subs because there are just too many boring in-game chores to do to get to the fun stuff).

I get the rationale behind the move to scenarios -- people who DPS outnumber healers and tanks, and DPS queue times for "traditional" PVE content has become far too long -- but scenarios certainly are not more compelling content to those of us who have taken the time to learn the intricacies of healing and aggro management, and find real satisfaction in participating in a good, coordinated dungeon run or raid.

Great post. I wholeheartedly agree.

During 5.0 and 5.1 I was still trying to get my character up to date on gear and content, through Scenarios and LFR -- it was never as fun as running dungeons, but I was willing to give it a try. Ever since 5.2 came out, though, I don't feel at all compelled to keep doing that. The game has been feeling like a list of chores I have to complete. Go to the Isle to farm dailies, farm rares, farm charms. Where does the fun begin?

My only real option for progression, Throne of Thunder LFR, is usually a soul-crushing experience. Jerks everywhere. No fun at all. Healing LFR is all about spamming AoE heals, with nothing of the triage that drew me to the role. Tanking LFR... with an audience of 24 strangers ready to insult me for the slightest mistake... I don't even wanna think about it.

I gave up on progression. I am having a hard time finding something fun to do in WoW, other than leveling alts and doing old achievements - but I am sure that cannot hold me for too much longer.

Cataclysm was an expansion with many flaws, but at least I could progress my max level characters (DPS, tanks and healers) through those three Dragon Soul dungeons. Three was too few, yes, but it was much, much better than zero.

I'd like scenarios > dungeons (faster que's) only if they are to be made much, much more difficult than the current MoP heroic 5 mans for example.

Or at least... if some scenarios were easy and some were really difficult. Bring back CC etc in scenarios.

I just don't understand the mindset Blizz has always had of PvE content "If it's going to be hard, it's going to require a ton of people" Why not both have difficult options?

They won't be harder than the current heroic 5 mans... they will require no heal or tank, they will be face roll easy like HOT 5 mans. They won't bring back CC for this either because only 3 people in it. Everyone's expect these new heroic scenarios to be great, they will be a joke and Blizzard will learn the hard way and lose subs.

Summer is coming, I don't think introducing more scenarios over 5 mans is the smart plan.

We are having less dungeons AND one less raid tier than in Wrath, when they said (4 years ago) that they would hire more people to release more content and faster. They are releasing content faster, but at the expense of one of the core elements of the game, which is UNACCEPTABLE.

I would argue about better raids too, ToT is not better than Ulduar.

Cata was the worst expansion, and its unfair that you try to compare MoP with it, but the reason why it was such a bad expansion is because they made the same mistake thay are doing now. They focused too much in one type of content and ignored the rest. They are doing the EXACT same mistake now.

Wrath had more raids, more dungeons and it was a better expansion overall, Wrath just needed faster production and harder heroic raids (except for last bosses).

I'm sorry but I'm going to have to call BS here. Whether or not the raids in MoP are better than wrath is purely an opinion one, but the numbers are not. Yes, Wrath had more dungeons than Mop does...definitely not up for debate. But raids? There may have been a larger number of raids...but let's take a look at the number of bosses shall we?

By my count there were a total of 50 raid bosses in Wrath (not counting VoA, although if you did, it's the same number of world bosses we have now). However, can we really count the 15 bosses from Naxx? A completely rehashed version of a Classic WoW raid. Oh and let's not forget Onyxia...same fight again, 20 levels later. Without those bosses that brings the count down to 34.

So far MoP has had 29 bosses in raids. So, in order for your statement to be true, the Siege of Orgrimmar raid would have to have fewer than 5 bosses. Sorry, I just don't see that happening.

We are seeing a much faster release schedule (something I bet very few people are upset by) with far more content and things to do than ever before.

We are having less dungeons AND one less raid tier than in Wrath, when they said (4 years ago) that they would hire more people to release more content and faster. They are releasing content faster, but at the expense of one of the core elements of the game, which is UNACCEPTABLE.

I would argue about better raids too, ToT is not better than Ulduar.

Cata was the worst expansion, and its unfair that you try to compare MoP with it, but the reason why it was such a bad expansion is because they made the same mistake thay are doing now. They focused too much in one type of content and ignored the rest. They are doing the EXACT same mistake now.

Wrath had more raids, more dungeons and it was a better expansion overall, Wrath just needed faster production and harder heroic raids (except for last bosses).

I'm sorry but I'm going to have to call BS here. Whether or not the raids in MoP are better than wrath is purely an opinion one, but the numbers are not. Yes, Wrath had more dungeons than Mop does...definitely not up for debate. But raids? There may have been a larger number of raids...but let's take a look at the number of bosses shall we?

By my count there were a total of 50 raid bosses in Wrath (not counting VoA, although if you did, it's the same number of world bosses we have now). However, can we really count the 15 bosses from Naxx? A completely rehashed version of a Classic WoW raid. Oh and let's not forget Onyxia...same fight again, 20 levels later. Without those bosses that brings the count down to 34.

So far MoP has had 29 bosses in raids. So, in order for your statement to be true, the Siege of Orgrimmar raid would have to have fewer than 5 bosses. Sorry, I just don't see that happening.

We are seeing a much faster release schedule (something I bet very few people are upset by) with far more content and things to do than ever before.

I say keep up the good work, Blizz.

Of course we can count the Naxx bosses, why wouldnt we? They were currwent content bosses, and lets face it, 99% of players havent experience those bosses, at least not on current level, so they were really new for them.

MoP will have one less raid tier than Wrath, it will have less raid bosses and have a lot less dungeons, with 3 of the dungeons of MoP being rehashed versions but still counting them, they are a lot fewer than the Wrath ones.

You can try to twist the numbers all you want, but that doesnt change the FACT that Wrath had 4 raid tier in comparison to the 3 of MoP, had more raid bosses, had a lot more dungeons and was a more succesful expansion.

We are seeing faster release dates, but that comes at the cost of less content and lower quality one. They are releasing more content by cutting off completely one of the core elements of the game, which is dungeons, not by increasing their production capacity.

Of course we can count the Naxx bosses, why wouldnt we? They were currwent content bosses, and lets face it, 99% of players havent experience those bosses, at least not on current level, so they were really new for them.MoP will have one less raid tier than Wrath, it will have less raid bosses and have a lot less dungeons, with 3 of the dungeons of MoP being rehashed versions but still counting them, they are a lot fewer than the Wrath ones.You can try to twist the numbers all you want, but that doesnt change the FACT that Wrath had 4 raid tier in comparison to the 3 of MoP, had more raid bosses, had a lot more dungeons and was a more succesful expansion.We are seeing faster release dates, but that comes at the cost of less content and lower quality one. They are releasing more content by cutting off completely one of the core elements of the game, which is dungeons, not by increasing their production capacity.

I remember a blue post not too long ago stating the reason Wotlk had so many dungeons at the start was because some of them were leftovers from development in Vanilla that didn't make the original cut.

But honestly, why does the number of raid bosses matter? There were a lot of 1-room raids in Wotlk: RS, ToC, OS, EoE, Onyxia (sorta). I'm not particularly fond of them.

Not sure how you can say we're seeing less content. Maybe it's less content that you enjoy because it's not a dungeon, but it's not less content. Not in the slightest. When I logged in for Wotlk, I thought, well, it's not raid time so maybe I'll do dailies, heroics, or PVP. When I log in now it's maybe I'll do dailies, PVP, pet battle, run LFR, do heroics or scenarios, brawler's guild, hunt down rares, work on my farm, or finally start a Challenge Mode.

Of course we can count the Naxx bosses, why wouldnt we? They were currwent content bosses, and lets face it, 99% of players havent experience those bosses, at least not on current level, so they were really new for them.MoP will have one less raid tier than Wrath, it will have less raid bosses and have a lot less dungeons, with 3 of the dungeons of MoP being rehashed versions but still counting them, they are a lot fewer than the Wrath ones.You can try to twist the numbers all you want, but that doesnt change the FACT that Wrath had 4 raid tier in comparison to the 3 of MoP, had more raid bosses, had a lot more dungeons and was a more succesful expansion.We are seeing faster release dates, but that comes at the cost of less content and lower quality one. They are releasing more content by cutting off completely one of the core elements of the game, which is dungeons, not by increasing their production capacity.

I remember a blue post not too long ago stating the reason Wotlk had so many dungeons at the start was because some of them were leftovers from development in Vanilla that didn't make the original cut.

But honestly, why does the number of raid bosses matter? There were a lot of 1-room raids in Wotlk: RS, ToC, OS, EoE, Onyxia (sorta). I'm not particularly fond of them.

Not sure how you can say we're seeing less content. Maybe it's less content that you enjoy because it's not a dungeon, but it's not less content. Not in the slightest. When I logged in for Wotlk, I thought, well, it's not raid time so maybe I'll do dailies, heroics, or PVP. When I log in now it's maybe I'll do dailies, PVP, pet battle, run LFR, do heroics or scenarios, brawler's guild, hunt down rares, work on my farm, or finally start a Challenge Mode.

TBC and Cata also had many more dungeons than what MoP will have. They also had leftover dungeons?

Cata had lower content because Cataclysm sucked, probably because of the huge effort that rebuilding the old world took, but yes, MoP has less content than TBC and Wrath, specially if we take into consideration the amount of time it takes to make a dugneon and the amount of time to do an scenario.

TBC and Cata also had many more dungeons than what MoP will have. They also had leftover dungeons?

Yes, for BC. I can't recall what they said about Cata's dungeons. Those were also times when dungeons were the only thing to do besides raid and PVP, also prior to raid finder which is no different than glorified dungeons.

MoP has less content than TBC and Wrath, specially if we take into consideration the amount of time it takes to make a dugneon and the amount of time to do an scenario.

Aside from the fact you're comparing two full xpacs with one that is half implemented, you're also claiming that because the scenarios are shorter to create there's less content, as in less things to do in the game. I don't see that as the case. There are a lot of scenarios, on top of dungeons and all the things I named earlier.