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Re: Attack on Logic

you forgot to mention using animals as communication devices
instead of smoke screens you'd simply write a note and the bird delivers it
less people would die and they'd have more time to prepare and evacuate people now having the information gives them ample minutes. (to set up traps)
how could the scouting region not think of this, what if all members die how'll any information be given to humanity
seems kinda stupid using messengers who could easily get killed
(titans dont attack animals)

Re: Attack on Logic

Quote:

you forgot to mention using animals as communication devices
instead of smoke screens you'd simply write a note and the bird delivers it
less people would die and they'd have more time to prepare and evacuate people now having the information gives them ample minutes. (to set up traps)
how could the scouting region not think of this, what if all members die how'll any information be given to humanity
seems kinda stupid using messengers who could easily get killed
(titans dont attack animals)

You are right to some extent, but it depends on the animal truly. Dogs are smart enough to be trained to deliver messages in a moving army, but nonetheless they could be scared of titans and are not as fast as horses. Pigeons are not as smart, but they are faster. However they cannot be trained to deliver messages from a stronghold to a moving army (they can be trained to do the opposite though), much less from a part of a moving army to another.

I can't really think of other animals that were used for relaying messages unless you count crows, owls and ravens which are used to relay messages in certain work of fiction.

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Characters don't nee extra armor because as a rule of manga/anime determines that important characters are made of plot. Plot, as you may or may not know is actually the strongest force in all of manga/anime. Anything or anyone who is important to the progression of the plot (or relevant to the plot) is thus made of plot and thus cannot die or be harmed more than the plot allows.

You are correct, but nonetheless a writer should make plot armor very subtle. By the way, I like your signature, although you should replace "gut" with "lecker" (which means tasty). Your signature makes sense, but "lecker" is more commonly used when referring to food.

Re: Attack on Logic

Personally I really only care about the traps and things that are not physically possible within the world's existing physical logic. I do think there should be more of those (primitive mines which can be well-marked because titans are mostly stupid, and also can be designed not to be trippable by humans... sinkholes, etc.). Also if one set of planners/engineers failed at the underground tunnel thing (like they have in Wall Sina), then at least see about getting someone else onto the job. That said, I know very well how easily people can get turned off/develop an aversion to something based on only a single setback. Unfortunate, but I'm sure you've all seen/experienced examples of that yourselves...

Re: Attack on Logic

Originally Posted by tobirama

you forgot to mention using animals as communication devices
instead of smoke screens you'd simply write a note and the bird delivers it
less people would die and they'd have more time to prepare and evacuate people now having the information gives them ample minutes. (to set up traps)
how could the scouting region not think of this, what if all members die how'll any information be given to humanity
seems kinda stupid using messengers who could easily get killed
(titans dont attack animals)

Animals would not work, even if they did would be MUCH less efficient than smoke signals.
So you see a Deviant Titan running in the formation, you get own a notebook and quill/ink-pot (they didn't have pens back then) while on a horse, write a note, tie to a bird that's somehow on the horse, tell it to go to command, it then flies of, Irwin receives so many notes it takes a few minutes to read them all and see where they come from, then sends his bird out to deliver a note to everyone telling them to change coarse. Or just get out a black flare and fire it so everyone can see.

The only animal that could do it fast enough are birds and how do you keep them on horses? How does Iwrin receive all the notes constantly and compare where they're from before deciding where to go (with smoke he just looks up and see's what direction the smoke points in)? How do birds know where to go on the formation that is constantly moving? How do you have time to write notes/read them? How does Iwrin send a bird out to everyone telling them where to go? How do people on the formation know where Titans are if the signals can only communicate between Irwin and individual soldiers (if you're on the SC constantly look around to see if there are smoke signals). Plus birds can become injured, picked of by predators, and take a while to go across the formation whereas smoke is instant.

Sorry if this sounds like a rant but there's no way the SC could use birds or animals like that.

Re: Attack on Logic

Originally Posted by epictoads

Animals would not work, even if they did would be MUCH less efficient than smoke signals.
So you see a Deviant Titan running in the formation, you get own a notebook and quill/ink-pot (they didn't have pens back then) while on a horse, write a note, tie to a bird that's somehow on the horse, tell it to go to command, it then flies of, Irwin receives so many notes it takes a few minutes to read them all and see where they come from, then sends his bird out to deliver a note to everyone telling them to change coarse. Or just get out a black flare and fire it so everyone can see.

The only animal that could do it fast enough are birds and how do you keep them on horses? How does Iwrin receive all the notes constantly and compare where they're from before deciding where to go (with smoke he just looks up and see's what direction the smoke points in)? How do birds know where to go on the formation that is constantly moving? How do you have time to write notes/read them? How does Iwrin send a bird out to everyone telling them where to go? How do people on the formation know where Titans are if the signals can only communicate between Irwin and individual soldiers (if you're on the SC constantly look around to see if there are smoke signals). Plus birds can become injured, picked of by predators, and take a while to go across the formation whereas smoke is instant.

Sorry if this sounds like a rant but there's no way the SC could use birds or animals like that.

i didnt mean during intense battles, i meant in situations like connie's village instead of people having to rush by horse to warn people of incoming titans a bird would get there in ample time (as they could train birds to fly from one place to another i.e point a to point b
within the wall) and carrying a bird or two during missions is quite easy, thus having a bird capable of flying from where ever, in the outside world back to base would insure even if all members of the scouting legion died it wouldnt be in vain as the info would be delivered to humanity

Re: Attack on Logic

Originally Posted by tobirama

i didnt mean during intense battles, i meant in situations like connie's village instead of people having to rush by horse to warn people of incoming titans a bird would get there in ample time (as they could train birds to fly from one place to another i.e point a to point b
within the wall) and carrying a bird or two during missions is quite easy, thus having a bird capable of flying from where ever, in the outside world back to base would insure even if all members of the scouting legion died it wouldnt be in vain as the info would be delivered to humanity

Maybe it would be useful in the situation with the Ape-Titan but that was unexpected. I haven't seen birds around the series anyway so getting/breeding them then training would take a while. I don't think they would think of that at the point they are at. I think they have domesticated dogs but not birds. Not saying it wouldn't be useful just that it would be awkward and they probably haven't considered training birds like that. You have to consider that things we take as normal now would be unthinkable 100 years ago. Then again I think we used hawks and stuff for hunting at that time but I'm not sure.

PIS and eternal sunsets.

There are two things in my mind about SnK that I just had to come here and bitch about.

1-Eternal sunsets.

2-Plot induced stupidity.

First one is somewhat irrelevant( and no, it has nothing to do with the Eternal Sunset of Kenichi), but the second is when it gets real.

First thing I'm gonna talk about, is the eternal sunsets.

I don't know if that's just an Anime thing, but for some reason, every time something relevant happens, it's at sunset! A sunset, that apparently never ends, not while titans are around. Let's look back at things :

Colossal Titan's first appearance, death of Eren's mom and the Armored Titan attack. All of this happened in what appears to be a very long sunset.

Second example. After Eren de-transformed and was surrounded by soldiers. He woke up, talked to them, then they talked amongst themselves, then they decided to kill him, then he half-transformed, blocked the cannons, talked with Mikasa and Armin, Pixis' arrival, them thinking a plan to retrieve Trost, Pixis' speech, initiating the plan, Eren losing control, people dying, Eren gaining control of his titan form, carrying the rock, and sealing Trost's gate. All in a very, very long sunset...

It's the same thing with Eren's first expedition outside the walls, but you get the point already.

Onto the real deal.

Plot Induced Stupidity.

Which makes up about 50% of the show.

First off, why not use gun?. I know people will say that guns can't kill titans, but they can blind them. And as we see, a lot of titan fights involve blinding them. You're on a horse, a titan chasing you, and you want to slow him down, pick up your gun, and blind him. It's not a big deal, but it can help tremendously. You're in a tag team, you shoot the eyes, your friend cuts the nape.

But that's not that important really, the true most annoying and stupidest thing out there is.......why don't they move at night? Not titans, humans.

Why won't the Survey Corps, go out at night and investigate titans to their hearts' content? I'm just saying, they could avoid getting slaughtered. But no! They have to go at the moments of sunrise, when titans just woke up and are looking for a delicious breakfast.

Then, the plan to retrieve Trost. So you're telling me, that when Pixis was giving his speech, no one raised his hand and said:

"Hey, about this plan...can we wait until the sun is down?"

And Pixis, the smart guy, didn't think of initiating the plan at night? Why? He just went in there, and was all like :

"We're going to retrieve Trost, right now. Heavens forbid we wait one more hour until the sun sets so that we can retrieve Trost without any casualties. We're going and dying, NOW!"

There are more things, but these two things have been on my mind for a while, especially the latter thing, which I'm surprised no one from SnK's huge fanbase ever mentioned.

Maybe I missed something about why they can't go at night, and if I did, tell me about it. So what do you guys think about my bitching?

Re: PIS and eternal sunsets.

Okay I will start explaining as good as I can.

The first one.
The sunsets.

It is a matter of time here.
A sunset lasts for surprisingly long if you sit down and take time on one.
I for example can sit for over one and a half hour in the sunset and take wonderful pictures of it when the colors are just right. So It´s perfectly justified that the sunsets lasts for an hour or so and to be honest, most of the elements of the plot take place in a shorter amount of time than the anime shows them as we see flashbacks, dreamworlds and well, everything that takes place at the exactly the same time as something else plays out. Parallel events.
They gets noticeably darker as you might notice when the Colossal titan shows up which is the beginning of the dawn. the armored titan showed up in the late dawn as it´s almost night when Eren makes his "rage against the titans" speech.
So time still moves, only slowed down by thoughts and our perspective of things.
...
2
The so called SID

Guns only worked at one time because they literally pointed these things in the eyes of the titans at overkill close range.
on a distance, it would not work because these guns only fire one bullet at the time before needing to reload. and in the middle of battle? that is not a possibility as a titan might show up and take a bite of you while you stand there and reload, unable to escape.
So guns are worthless in that regard, as more people would die that way.

Yes, it is true that titans can´t move at night but your suggestions are not making sense either as the scouts can´t see for squat in the dark either so they won´t be able to fight titans that way.
and if they bring a torch then they might wake up the titans and they would still be in a mess.
And besides, would you go in pitch black territory, knowing that you at any moment´s notice can walk right into a titan´s ass or mouth by accident?
You have not seen the nights in SnK, if there is no moon, then it´s darker than a black-out.

The Trost plan.

Do you have any idea how many titans that would manage to get in during that time it would take for the sun to settle?
And they thought against time since the titans would try to press their way inside the inner gates with numbers as the barricade showed at one point.
They acted immediately to decrease the number of titans that would be trapped with them and save a lot of lives in the process. So the nighttime plan would not work since we don´t know if the Rouge titan even can move at night... ever considered that?
Maybe it wouldn´t work at all?
and that´s why they acted while the sun was up.
they needed a shift solution.

Note that the town isn't that big, if I estimate from the very first scene in Chapter 1, it's about 1km across (4 minutes at running speed.)

That's 30 minutes. Sunsets last longer than that I believe.

EMA getting cannon'ed scene:
Whole conversation lasts 10 minutes at most (I mean, the episode is only 20 minutes, and only half the episode at most is concerned, with a lot of slow-mo and flashbacks.)
Pixis's getting ready with Eren + speech (15 minutes)
EM getting in position (5 minutes)
Eren unconscious (including Armin spotting the red signal + running over to help, 10 minutes)
Eren carry boulder (5 minutes)

Again, ~30 minutes.

Guns:
Accuracy problem. Given shotguns, wider pattern but decreased effective range, especially with high-speed regen it won't give you too much of a window before they recover.
Remember, range is not simply the distance between you and the titan's feet. It's between you and the titan's eyes. Small mobile target means you have a hard time unloading enough damage on it to be effective.
Titans can come in groups, so teamwork complications (tactics for multiple targets depend on the survival of the gunners.)

Re: PIS and eternal sunsets.

Fair enough about the sunsets.

Originally Posted by Nanozom

The so called SID

Guns only worked at one time because they literally pointed these things in the eyes of the titans at overkill close range.
on a distance, it would not work because these guns only fire one bullet at the time before needing to reload. and in the middle of battle? that is not a possibility as a titan might show up and take a bite of you while you stand there and reload, unable to escape.
So guns are worthless in that regard, as more people would die that way.

Yes, it is true that titans can´t move at night but your suggestions are not making sense either as the scouts can´t see for squat in the dark either so they won´t be able to fight titans that way.
and if they bring a torch then they might wake up the titans and they would still be in a mess.
And besides, would you go in pitch black territory, knowing that you at any moment´s notice can walk right into a titan´s ass or mouth by accident?
You have not seen the nights in SnK, if there is no moon, then it´s darker than a black-out.

Was it ever shown that guns require that long to load? Especially considering that most titans take their sweet time to walk. If a titan shows up at your face, then of course you can't blind it. That's why I put in two scenarios, the horse back one and the tag team one. So no, they're not THAT useless.

We've seen Survey Corps member move and fight perfectly at night time and we've also seen a certain plan to move at night. So I don't see how visibility is an issue here but not in these two cases.

Quote:

The Trost plan.

Do you have any idea how many titans that would manage to get in during that time it would take for the sun to settle?
And they thought against time since the titans would try to press their way inside the inner gates with numbers as the barricade showed at one point.
They acted immediately to decrease the number of titans that would be trapped with them and save a lot of lives in the process. So the nighttime plan would not work since we don´t know if the Rouge titan even can move at night... ever considered that?
Maybe it wouldn´t work at all?
and that´s why they acted while the sun was up.
they needed a shift solution.

Does more titans getting in to Trost matter? It's far better than sending valuable men to their deaths. The only titan that can breach the inner gate is the Armored Titan(as mentioned by that scared commander), so regardless of how many titans gather near the inner gate, I don't see the problem. Not to mention that it was sunset, so waiting one or two hours can't hurt when they waited a couple of hours for Eren to wake up. One or two deviants that can move at night, are far better than all of those titans. Though deviants were never said to be able to move at night.

Guns:
Accuracy problem. Given shotguns, wider pattern but decreased effective range, especially with high-speed regen it won't give you too much of a window before they recover.
Remember, range is not simply the distance between you and the titan's feet. It's between you and the titan's eyes. Small mobile target means you have a hard time unloading enough damage on it to be effective.
T

Nighttime boulder plan:
Threat from the Armoured Titan, cannot afford to have Titans pouring into the inner gate and effectively deal with two fronts.

Again, like the small spoiler above. Visibility is not an issue.
Some. Most aren't likely to stay that long.

The threat of the Armored Titan is far greater with that many titans walking around. Ordinary titans can't breach the inner gate. They already waited for Eren to wake up (which was likely from noon till near the end of the sunset), a few more hours can't hurt.

Re: PIS and eternal sunsets.

the only thing I find illogical is that they do not use ballista. think about it. wqhile a balilsta bolt won't kill a titan, it will still incumber it. sp[ecially a big enough one. best case scenario is if it hits the neck of the titan. the nap of the neck must be destroyed, often by amputating it as seen but other times by destructive force, as with the rogue titan crushing the nap. a balista with an altered head could do this job from the front potentially, bpassing through the neck and destroying the specific area.

Re: PIS and eternal sunsets.

Originally Posted by lordoffantasy

the only thing I find illogical is that they do not use ballista. think about it. wqhile a balilsta bolt won't kill a titan, it will still incumber it. sp[ecially a big enough one. best case scenario is if it hits the neck of the titan. the nap of the neck must be destroyed, often by amputating it as seen but other times by destructive force, as with the rogue titan crushing the nap. a balista with an altered head could do this job from the front potentially, bpassing through the neck and destroying the specific area.

It´s called resources, and a Ballista only have one arrow.
And how would they move it around fast enough? what good does one stabbed titan when a hundred is coming closer as you stand there and speak?
And I doubt they would give the scouts one like that...

Re: PIS and eternal sunsets.

Originally Posted by KingOfNight

The threat of the Armored Titan is far greater with that many titans walking around. Ordinary titans can't breach the inner gate. They already waited for Eren to wake up (which was likely from noon till near the end of the sunset), a few more hours can't hurt.

I think you've misunderstood me there. I mean to say that the A.Titan is posing a very big threat by potentially damaging to the inner gate and allow normal Titans to rush in. I think one of the characters has mentioned it, saying they don't know when the A.Titan will appear etc.

Also, I think morale is a serious issue to consider. I would've also followed-through the mess at that point, bring their family and loved ones into the talk for the threat, and bring Eren to create a final ray-of-hope, limiting their options to either walk away from their family or helping Eren succeed, using and turning their confusion into some pitiful or near-death courage or whatever you might call it, for the sake of crowd control. If you read that bit again you'll realise there're soldiers already on the verge of killing their superiors. Even Eren himself notes that and reminds Armin of the deeper problem within the force.

Originally Posted by KingOfNight

Again, like the small spoiler above. Visibility is not an issue.
Some. Most aren't likely to stay that long.

Nanaba and the other 3 are fighting under the moonlight. It's not much, but certain enough to fight with. They were lucky to get the moon, you can't always count on a clear sky if you can't predict the weather too well.

Re: PIS and eternal sunsets.

Originally Posted by Utsune

I think you've misunderstood me there. I mean to say that the A.Titan is posing a very big threat by potentially damaging to the inner gate and allow normal Titans to rush in. I think one of the characters has mentioned it, saying they don't know when the A.Titan will appear etc.

No, I get your point. It's that the Armored Titan would still be a threat if he appeared as Eren was carrying the boulder. So he's a threat in both cases. The scared commander also implied that they are preparing to face the Armored Titan.

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Also, I think morale is a serious issue to consider. I would've also followed-through the mess at that point, bring their family and loved ones into the talk for the threat, and bring Eren to create a final ray-of-hope, limiting their options to either walk away from their family or helping Eren succeed, using and turning their confusion into some pitiful or near-death courage or whatever you might call it, for the sake of crowd control. If you read that bit again you'll realise there're soldiers already on the verge of killing their superiors. Even Eren himself notes that and reminds Armin of the deeper problem within the force.

Still really doesn't explain why not do it at night. After convincing the soldiers with his plan, Pixis could have just waited 30 minutes (as you counted).

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Nanaba and the other 3 are fighting under the moonlight. It's not much, but certain enough to fight with. They were lucky to get the moon, you can't always count on a clear sky if you can't predict the weather too well.