Not sure what your point is. If I sold a software product, I'd want to make sure I was up to date on feedback about that product coming from a range of sources. Google, Bing, Yahoo queries would be one source for such feedback. Customer surveys, media reports, Conan O'Brien videos poking fun of my product would also be another source.

The non sequiturs keep coming. The salient point I made is there are far more switching to Mac than away from it. Your googling was irrelevant in the context of that discussion.

From Apple ][ - to new Mac Pro I've owned them all.Long on AAPL so biased"Google doesn't sell you anything, Google just sells you!"

Because for some things it still runs better than Lion, and has fewer bugs.

And there are a number of annoyances ("features" I guess) in Lion that can't be turned off. I'd also argue that iCloud is too buggy to bother with at this point.

Lion is the first version of OSX I haven't switched over to as fast as I could, unless there are major improvements I'll probably hold off until I have newer software that requires it or maybe even skip it for 10.8.

2nd- What program are you planning on running on Windows that won't run under OSX?

I don't like Lion. I have it on my MBP. At work I run CS5, FCP7, Handbrake, Audio Hijack and Maya on a Mac Pro. On my iMac I use Xcode. I do use iDisk but only until June 2012 apparently. I may quit sooner it is getting really slow. I suspect that Apple might be intentionally slowing it down to motivate people to migrate to iCloud which I have no intention of doing. I will just use Dropbox. I think my .mac email is dead too as I discovered just recently I can no longer receive mail at that address even though that is my iTunes user id.

The non sequiturs keep coming. The salient point I made is there are far more switching to Mac than away from it. Your googling was irrelevant in the context of that discussion.

So again, I ask, why not use those data points to continue improving your products? Even if you are getting 1M new customers a day, I'd still like to know why that 1% decided they wanted to turn back. Even if that 1% is meaningless to my bottom line, I'd still like to know.

Wouldn't you? You will come back with some clever reply, pointless to continue bantering. You are right, I am wrong, you win, I lose, you are better than me!

So again, I ask, why not use those data points to continue improving your products? Even if you are getting 1M new customers a day, I'd still like to know why that 1% decided they wanted to turn back. Even if that 1% is meaningless to my bottom line, I'd still like to know.

Wouldn't you? You will come back with some clever reply, pointless to continue bantering. You are right, I am wrong, you win, I lose, you are better than me!

We agree at last

From Apple ][ - to new Mac Pro I've owned them all.Long on AAPL so biased"Google doesn't sell you anything, Google just sells you!"

I agree with you for the most part. I did a multi camera edit the day I got FCProX but it is a work around.

My personal biggest issue is the overly automated nature of the beast but that is probably because of many thousands of hours using 7 and it's predecessors. It's akin to the Lion apps auto saving when I want to save something to a specific folder. I know how to do my way it but it threw me for a while and maybe their way is better ... still thinking about that .

I also developed some idiosyncratic tricks that I'd developed over the years that are hard to stop. I always made TV shows backwards. I did a ton one hour shows for ESPN in FCPro and I'd start with the endings and then add the ad breaks and then the going to breaks and so on ... finally filling in the gaps. Not as easy in X although I'm sure it could be done with slugs. But I digress...

Two tips: One, you can select a project in the project window (command+0), right-click on it and Duplicate. Or, you can export a version of the project as an XML to archive it, so you can revert back to it at any time.

Second, you can definitely use gap clips (slugs) to edit from the end back to the beginning. Use the position tool (P) to move a clip anywhere you want in the timeline, and it will build a gap clip in the magnetic timeline for you. You can even create secondary storylines above the primary storyline, with its own cuts and transitions. Sometimes when I'm working on a project with a hard time limit (like a 30 second promo, for example), I'll actually set the primary storyline to only contain a gap clip equal to the length of the project. Then, I'll use connected clips and secondary storylines for everything else. It's not perfect, since you have to make sure you've selected the correct storyline in the timeline or else your keyboard shortcuts will default to the primary storyline when adding clips, but does help me keep clips locked at certain locations. That lets me be free to edit anywhere in the timeline and not have to worry about knocking anything out of sync later on. It's a workaround, but it works =).

I don't like Lion. I have it on my MBP. At work I run CS5, FCP7, Handbrake, Audio Hijack and Maya on a Mac Pro. On my iMac I use Xcode. I do use iDisk but only until June 2012 apparently. I may quit sooner it is getting really slow. I suspect that Apple might be intentionally slowing it down to motivate people to migrate to iCloud which I have no intention of doing. I will just use Dropbox. I think my .mac email is dead too as I discovered just recently I can no longer receive mail at that address even though that is my iTunes user id.

I like having Snow Leopard as well as Lion for many of the reasons you mention. That slip up by VMWare last week enabling a standard install of Snow Leopard rather than the server was awesome. I suspect they did intend it and were clipped around the ear by Apple Legal given the fact they had a dialog asking if it was authorized.

BTW and off topic sorry ... but is anyone else seeing Safari act weird after today's update? Mine keeps giving me the spinning wheel. Not snapper at all so far! I am disabling all extensions in case they are the cause.

update: I seems to have been Ad Blocker going nuts.

From Apple ][ - to new Mac Pro I've owned them all.Long on AAPL so biased"Google doesn't sell you anything, Google just sells you!"

Two tips: One, you can select a project in the project window (command+0), right-click on it and Duplicate. Or, you can export a version of the project as an XML to archive it, so you can revert back to it at any time.

Second, you can definitely use gap clips (slugs) to edit from the end back to the beginning. Use the position tool (P) to move a clip anywhere you want in the timeline, and it will build a gap clip in the magnetic timeline for you. You can even create secondary storylines above the primary storyline, with its own cuts and transitions. Sometimes when I'm working on a project with a hard time limit (like a 30 second promo, for example), I'll actually set the primary storyline to only contain a gap clip equal to the length of the project. Then, I'll use connected clips and secondary storylines for everything else. It's not perfect, since you have to make sure you've selected the correct storyline in the timeline or else your keyboard shortcuts will default to the primary storyline when adding clips, but does help me keep clips locked at certain locations. That lets me be free to edit anywhere in the timeline and not have to worry about knocking anything out of sync later on. It's a workaround, but it works =).

Thanks nice tips. My problem is more than likely not enough real life work in X to learn the work arounds. It's been very quiet for the last year or two ... Nothing beats a real job to learn fast!

From Apple ][ - to new Mac Pro I've owned them all.Long on AAPL so biased"Google doesn't sell you anything, Google just sells you!"

Many times the sound is synced to camera #1 at the sound booth in the back of the concert hall. The other cameras are not recording audio and even if they were there would be a delay since they are some other distance from the source. That is why they use timecode. It doesn't take more than about 20 meters to make a huge difference. Speed of light verses speed of sound.

After reading a lot of the complaints about Apple not catering to the "pros" anymore, I'd like to just make a few observations, if I might.

When the Mac Pro was introduced a lot of people, myself included, were very impressed with a computer that finally "got it". It could be upgraded with ease because of it's great design. Hard drives, memory, all sorts of internal bits and pieces ... no problem. There is absolutely no reason that the Mac Pro one bought years ago had to remain the same (waiting for Apple to "re-design it) and about the only thing I think it lacks, even now, is thunderbolt capability, which did not exist then and I think we'll see it on new Mac Pros next year, so the never ending complaints about lack of upgrades to Mac Pro are completely unnecessary and unwarranted, imho.

As far as FCPX is concerned, it was noted, at the time, to have been designed with digital media in mind and most of the complaints were coming from people who still had a need to work with tape. I can understand that ...... with change comes uncertainty and a degree of discomfort .... but the fact is that the future is digital and to ignore that fact is to invite "obsolescence through ignorance" .... and that has never been a part of Apple's DNA, nor should it be.

The main difference between Apple and PC (Windows) has usually been that PC tries to drag the past along with it, while Apple has been more than ready to give up some of the past in order to redefine the future.

Finally, as important as the "pro market" may be ... the fact is there are a whole lot more of "us" than there are of "them". I think Apple can serve both markets .... but there should be no doubt as to who drives sales .... and with it the profit to develop machines capable to service both markets. It's the same reason that there are more "people cars" sold than "race cars".

Apple has long ago stopped being a niche company .... and I'm glad it has.

Your points are all valid arguments for sure. However there are minor points I'd make. For example even if a job you were in the middle of was 100% digital it still couldn't be opened in FCProX if it was originated in 7. That is akin to Excel not opening an earlier version's spread sheets. That was pretty amazing from Apple and really a major scary fact for studios with masses of projects archived away that were called upon in new jobs.

I'd also say that many companies have long kept their high end product going for both prestige and R&D. Many a feature accepted as normal in cars today were created in F1 race cars. I truly hope Apple maintain a high end even if it is break even for them on paper. I suspect they will.

From Apple ][ - to new Mac Pro I've owned them all.Long on AAPL so biased"Google doesn't sell you anything, Google just sells you!"

2) Sound sound syncing (if the sound is recorded on each camera) is an easy to get close -- then it is a relatively easy matter to manually tweak each camera clip a frame-at-a-time to get video sync.

Tweaking the sync is not always as easy as you say. For lip sync, not every part of a songs lyrics is easy to visually align the audio using free form frame at a time nudging. It would be way too tedious especially with multiple cameras. You need to do it by the numbers, not just eyeballing it.

Tweaking the sync is not always as easy as you say. For lip sync, not every part of a songs lyrics is easy to visually align the audio using free form frame at a time nudging. It would be way too tedious especially with multiple cameras. You need to do it by the numbers, not just eyeballing it.

My point exactly, so far it's an excellent prosumer product ...

From Apple ][ - to new Mac Pro I've owned them all.Long on AAPL so biased"Google doesn't sell you anything, Google just sells you!"

I wonder if the reason why Apple is "ditching" the pro market can be traced back to fact that the pro market never really adopted the NEXT platform and Job held kinda held a grudge against the pro market...

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Update: Harrington later provided clarification via Twitter, saying he did not hear the information first-hand, but rather that it was simply a rumor passed along with an off-hand comment.

This means you can put away the pitchforks, people. Apple loves Pro uses again
Blur35mm can return to paying a premium for OS X.

When Apple was "Apple Computer, Inc." they were more concerned with making powerful Macintosh computers that were used by the publishing, graphic arts, film making, and other creative industries. The higher-end models even echoed some of the high-end workstation-class systems from NEXT. To have an G5 Tower used to be the mark of an accomplished power user. The Apple website would have a front page link to the Pro Story of the week, talking about some business or government or University that deployed a huge IT solution using Apple Pro software and Pro-level Macintosh systems.

Then Apple went consumer, got into making iPods and selling music, and iPhones, and had a whole ton of non-pros using their products, many of whom thought Macs were too difficult to switch to. So Apple worked on making Macs easier to switch to and even easier to work with those consumer products the non-Pros were buying.

Then, Apple became "Apple, Inc." They are getting way more money from non-Pros and pro-sumers than the actual Pros... and they've shifted.

Apple's target market went from University/IT/Creative Pros to middle-to-upper class households that drink Keurig Coffee while they use iPads to read books on their IKEA couch, pondering which wine to have with their Chicken & Gnocchi soup for dinner tonight, as their MacBook Pro is downloading the latest iTunes Movie Rental over 50MB broadband in the living room of a $150K house or $2000/mo apartment in the city, while their Ugg boots dry nicely in the corner beside their North Face winter coat.

You need to get a life outside this fantasy world you live in. Or get someone to unlock the basement door.

I don't like Lion. I have it on my MBP. At work I run CS5, FCP7, Handbrake, Audio Hijack and Maya on a Mac Pro. On my iMac I use Xcode. I do use iDisk but only until June 2012 apparently. I may quit sooner it is getting really slow. I suspect that Apple might be intentionally slowing it down to motivate people to migrate to iCloud which I have no intention of doing. I will just use Dropbox. I think my .mac email is dead too as I discovered just recently I can no longer receive mail at that address even though that is my iTunes user id.

I'm holding out until June 2012. Then I'll switch to Lion. Hopefully, you all will have finished beta testing it for Apple

Tweaking the sync is not always as easy as you say. For lip sync, not every part of a songs lyrics is easy to visually align the audio using free form frame at a time nudging. It would be way too tedious especially with multiple cameras. You need to do it by the numbers, not just eyeballing it.

I have to yield to your greater experience -- I wouldn't begin to know how to approach editing something like you described in your prior post.

However, Apple has said they will add [true] multi cam support in the next FCP X release. I suspect that they well understand what the pros require.

In addition, this should be a good test to see if Apple can add features to the new FCP X code base in a timely fashion...

...Supposedly, that is one of the major reasons for rewriting from the ground up and abandoning the FCP 7 architecture.

"Swift generally gets you to the right way much quicker." - auxio -

"The perfect [birth]day -- A little playtime, a good poop, and a long nap." - Tomato Greeting Cards -

So Apple please go back and finish it! There is room for FCPro 8 and Final Cut X. Just drop iMovie for X and you're all set.

Fortunately, you're not runnin Apple. Despite all the whining FCP X is absolutely pro quality, and offers up a new paradigm for professional editors. Apple also has a roadmap for adding more features soon. Meanwhile, iMovie is much simpler and perfect for the types of projects the average consumer does at a very attractive price point.

I have to yield to your greater experience -- I wouldn't begin to know how to approach editing something like you described in your prior post.

However, Apple has said they will add [true] multi cam support in the next FCP X release. I suspect that they well understand what the pros require.

In addition, this should be a good test to see if Apple can add features to the new FCP X code base in a timely fashion...

...Supposedly, that is one of the major reasons for rewriting from the ground up and abandoning the FCP 7 architecture.

Once they get multi-cam and my subtitles xml plug-in is compatible, I could see it being usable since I don't work in a multi seat environment. It is just me. I just need those two things, although I am definitely not looking forward to the learning curve. Except for the speed issue I'm am fine with FCP7. It just isn't that fast at rendering or previewing.

I was actually meaning the references to other regulars here on AI and their attributed levels of credibility nothing to do with your thread.

Meant to respond to the other guy but responded to your post by mistake. The point is had that one person not spoken up and called to complain about the smoke, Apple would never have known their actions were inadvertently affecting others.

BTW you obviously have an axe to grind with MSFT, I on the other hand pick the tools that work best for me. Some people hate Apple because of Chinese labor conditions. Some people hate MSFT because they are considered an evil capitalist corporation that buys up competitors in monopolistic fashion. Pick the lesser of two evils if you wish, but for me, it's what works best for what I do.

Nothing so dramatic. I, like The Crazy One, believe that Microsoft "has no taste." Microsoft has thrown some pretty awful products into the market with little or no care, just to grab marketshare. Simply put, I hate using Windows, Office, and all the rest. I'm still forced to every day on the job. It's a horrible user experience. So, on the suggestion of none other than Bill Gates himself, who once said in an interview that Microsoft was not a monopoly because customers could CHOOSE to use their software or not, I made a choice about my own computers: to not use Microsoft technology. In other words, I followed Bill Gates' advice. He's right: they are not a monopoly. Apple makes the non-Microsoft choice tolerable, even gleefully enjoyable (and it sure beats the Linux user experience).

Apple's target market went from University/IT/Creative Pros to middle-to-upper class households that drink Keurig Coffee while they use iPads to read books on their IKEA couch, pondering which wine to have with their Chicken & Gnocchi soup for dinner tonight, as their MacBook Pro is downloading the latest iTunes Movie Rental over 50MB broadband in the living room of a $150K house or $2000/mo apartment in the city, while their Ugg boots dry nicely in the corner beside their North Face winter coat.

This is one of the stupidest things I have read on this forum - and that includes the time before I put DaHarder on my ignore list! If Apple didn't care about the pro market, they wouldn't have even bothered with Final Cut Pro X.

Final Cut Pro X is geared for the future of video - tapeless, file-based editing. If you still need tape, there are several plug-ins that will handle the gaps. Final Cut Pro X and the plugins cost less than the old FCP suite.

Not communicating on issues like Multicam and cutting sales of the previous Final Cut before Final Cut Pro X had feature parity with the old suite were perhaps Apple's biggest mistakes. Releasing Final Cut Pro X was not a mistake, nor a sign that they don't care about the Pro market. In two years, new projects will start to be cut on Final Cut Pro X, and as more and more video shifts to tapeless workflow, the gap between the rest of the industry and Final Cut Pro X will grow.

This reminds me of the fuss on the change from film to digital - most of what I read about Final Cut Pro X is exactly the same. Apple is once again pushing forward ahead of the rest of the industry and their users - good for them! Otherwise we would be stuck with traditional editing interfaces for who knows how long

Pssst - why don't you cross reference to the release schedule of the Intel Xeon CPUs contained within those Mac Pro's?

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If this isn't enough to convince you they are abandoning the Pro's

No, it's not since all it proves is you don't understand the technology you are attempting to comment on.

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...also - by the time they have those features studios will have cross-graded already.

And they will switch back once tapeless becomes the normal workflow and FCPX is the only app written from the ground up around that workflow.

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Apple has given ZERO assurances that they are not abandoning the Pro's.

Huh? The lead developer demoed a pre-release version before a major show. They have actively engaged respected editors throughout the industry. They have publicly stated multiple times they are not abandoning the pro market.

It has "Pro" in the name!!! If they didn't care about pro's why even bother naming the product like they did?

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During the FCPX debacle they begrudgingly caved

If you are referring to reversing themselves on selling the previous version, I do agree there - that was their biggest mistake - followed closely by waiting far too long to talk about future plans for obviously missing features like multicam. But I don't begrudge them for shipping it now - there are plenty of people who don't need multicam that are benefitting from FCPX now.

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and they have done nothing to counter the Mac Pro death rumors.

Apple never discusses future product plans - so I'm not sure, other than pouting, what people are upset about here. And they are not getting rid of the Pro. It may not have the volume of other systems, but it has far to many attributes that make it necessary. It's not an Xserve waiting to happen...

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If they want us to buy iMacs that we cannot get in and out of easily for 3rd party cards and upgrades then why bother?

I have a Mac Pro and I still can't get decent third party graphics card support without hacking I'm far less concerned about them dropping the Pro and far more concerned that they seem to be loosing interest in releasing better graphics card choices

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It is going to take a long time for manufacturers to catch up with Thunderbolt so what happens in the mean time?

Thunderbolt can't replace a single 16 lane PCI express card slot - let alone two of 'em and three 4 lane slots. Thunderbolt is cool, but it can't touch the bandwidth available in the Mac Pro.

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Can get faster hardware cheaper and the days of apps being exclusive to OS X are gone as Windows developers have come a long way. Basically you are paying a premium for OS X.

Yup, I happily pay a premium for Mac OSX. And windows "coming a long way" may be good enough for you, but not me.

Choice is good.

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I am struggling to understand why they are abandoning power users and Pros. Makes no sense to me.

Perhaps because they aren't? Couldn't that be the real source of your confusion?

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Again, if they give us some assurances then my arguments will go away but having been a life long Pro Mac User it is disheartening.

If you are looking for warm fuzzies and daily affirmations then Apple is not the company for you. I'm sure Dell or HP would be more than happy to tell you their future plans. Heck, Microsoft too. Then again, it doesn't mean they will make those days or deliver on their promises - but at least they are assuring you

I never get this "need" by people about what isn't shipping. If it isn't shipping, it doesn't exist. I'm far more interested in a companies overall track record of delivering - and Apple delivers. Not always in the ways that people expect, but the vast majority of the time they are right vs. wrong.

Below is the Mac Pro Refresh Schedule from MacRumors. If this isn't enough to convince you they are abandoning the Pro's...also - by the time they have those features studios will have cross-graded already. Apple has given ZERO assurances that they are not abandoning the Pro's. During the FCPX debacle they begrudgingly caved and they have done nothing to counter the Mac Pro death rumors. If they want us to buy iMacs that we cannot get in and out of easily for 3rd party cards and upgrades then why bother? It is going to take a long time for manufacturers to catch up with Thunderbolt so what happens in the mean time? Can get faster hardware cheaper and the days of apps being exclusive to OS X are gone as Windows developers have come a long way. Basically you are paying a premium for OS X. I am struggling to understand why they are abandoning power users and Pros. Makes no sense to me. Again, if they give us some assurances then my arguments will go away but having been a life long Pro Mac User it is disheartening.

When you think about it, wouldn't the "easy path" be to simply update FCP8?

Actually, it's not. There was no "simply" - FCP7 is full of legacy code, and with the 64 bit push of Lion combined with all the cool technology like OpenCL that FCP7 didn't take advantage of, I can see where Apple rightly decided to "burn the house down" and start over.

The worst thing they did was drop sales of FCP7 - they should have kept it up until FCPX and the plugins caught up. But as for FCPX? In a couple of years these discussions are going to look pretty silly...

By easy path, I meant it's easier (and more economically rewarding) to cater to people who fall for buzzwords like "magical" and are happy if their Angry Birds player comes in multiple colors, as opposed to making products based on what the user requires as opposed to what looks pretty.

Again, what a load of crap.

If that is really what Apple was doing they wouldn't have expended the energy to write FCPX from scratch - they would have just dropped FCP7 after milking it for another couple of years.

Sheesh - the inability of some to see the big picture - particularly after being practically smacked over the head with it - is hard to believe.

And it didn't happen overnight. Avid used to be over 80% at one point.

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I wonder how many of those are now using FCProX instead ... I seriously doubt many: I really hope Apple are looking into going back to 8 and finishing it for pros.

Not gonna happen. FCP8 is dead - and thank goodness! FCPX, like the original, will mature and come into it's own over time. The foundation is there, as has been pointed out in quotes provided in quotes throughout this and other threads by those who make their living day in and day out doing this stuff.

FCPX is the future, and for most it's a little ahead of the game. Once the everyone else catches up to where FCPX is now, FCPX will be a mature and well entrenched app. Competitors aren't going to be able to simply slap a few UI tweaks on and continue with business as usual.

Heck, things like OpenCL are still evolving... and FCPX is built from the ground up fully embracing all of the modern foundations that Apple has been laying over the past 10 years in Mac OSX.

As I said, the biggest bungle that Apple did was to cancel FCP7 simultaneously with FCPX - which they finally (and as others said, grudgingly) reversed. But that's just a political/perception issue. It has nothing to do with the long term strategic direction Apple is moving with FCPX which in the long run will more than pan out.