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Note that Ruka doesn't even need to bet with Nagi about the debt. She can just give Hayate the money and ask him to use it to pay back Nagi, which she sort of implied she would do when she asked Hayate what if he didn't have the debt and he didn't give any answer to her.

This is false, considering she can't even pay off her own debt. Where exactly does this spare money needed to pay off Hayate's debt come from when she can't even pay off her own?

It's also a logical fallacy to assume that Ruka can do it easily simply because she is an idol. Idols are not multi-billionaire celebrities on the same calibur as solo artists like Michael Jackson, Whitney Houston, etc. In Korea and Japan, they're a dime a dozen that have to answer to the agencies that manage them as well as all the middlemen such as the record companies. Idols may make more than the average salarymen, but they're not as rich as you think.

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Originally Posted by evil|plushie

Of course she doesn't want Nagi's help. Thanks to Hayate, she thinks Nagi and his debt to her is the reason he can't date her. What do you expect her to do? Ask Nagi to force Hayate to date her? Wait for Hayate to finish paying 150million in yen to Nagi? If you're so smart and so much better, then you tell me what is the best solution in that situation and we'll see if it can't be nitpicked at all.

And Nagi isn't refusing Ruka's claim over Hayate's debt. She basically told Ruka to give up on her feelings for Hayate. Let me make that clearer; she told Ruka; a person which owes her nothing and has no debt to her, to give up on her own personal feelings for Hayate; someone who is indebted to her. It's got nothing to do with Hayate's debt at this point.

The only way this would be even comparable is if Ruka's bet was 'you give up on Hayate' to Nagi

Once again, you miss the point. Both girls are competing with their feelings on Hayate using his debt as the prize. If you find fault in one, the same fault exists in the other. If you ask what right Nagi has to refuse Ruka's request to let go of Hayate's debt, then you should also ask what right Ruka has to demand power over Hayate's status without the consent of the man in question.

This is not something where you can claim one of them moral superiority.

And FYI, considering Hayate is obligated to stay with Nagi because of the debt, regardless of his personal feelings of compassion or loyality, Ruka telling Nagi to pardon the debt or give it away does in fact imply giving up on Hayate (at least to Nagi).

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On a side note, apparently Hata released a (non-h) doujin named Sore ga Seiyuu! EX for Comiket 83.

If it's her, I think she would actually prioritise paying Hayate's debt off first before hers in this particular case. That or work even harder. I'm not saying it's the smartest thing to do, but it's awfully straightforward, like her.

I'm saying that, contrary to what you've said, she does need a bet with Nagi to settle Hayate's debt. That, or take out a(nother) loan, or something to get the money.

It's not like when Isumi (or Nagi) did it. Isumi can do it out of petty cash. Ruka can't.

So Nagi's giving her more of a fighting chance than she needs to. She could refuse to sell the debt at any price. She could insist of Ruka coming up with the money somehow. Instead she's giving Ruka an opportunity to win the necessary money with a contest that most people would think Ruka's overwhelmingly more likely to win.

Not to mention, she forced Hayate out of his denial regarding Ruka's feelings.

This is false, considering she can't even pay off her own debt. Where exactly does this spare money needed to pay off Hayate's debt come from when she can't even pay off her own?

It's also a logical fallacy to assume that Ruka can do it easily simply because she is an idol. Idols are not multi-billionaire celebrities on the same calibur as solo artists like Michael Jackson, Whitney Houston, etc. In Korea and Japan, they're a dime a dozen that have to answer to the agencies that manage them as well as all the middlemen such as the record companies. Idols may make more than the average salarymen, but they're not as rich as you think.

I never said she would pay it off immediately in one lump sum. We all know she doesn't have the cash. But if she had to, she would pay it off, the same way she's paying off her own debt, with whatever money she can earn and not need.

And nobody is saying Ruka will do it easily. However, in the manga, the characters themselves comment that Ruka CAN pay off her debt if she works hard enough; either as an idol or mangaka.

Quote:

Once again, you miss the point. Both girls are competing with their feelings on Hayate using his debt as the prize. If you find fault in one, the same fault exists in the other. If you ask what right Nagi has to refuse Ruka's request to let go of Hayate's debt, then you should also ask what right Ruka has to demand power over Hayate's status without the consent of the man in question.

This is not something where you can claim one of them moral superiority.

And FYI, considering Hayate is obligated to stay with Nagi because of the debt, regardless of his personal feelings of compassion or loyality, Ruka telling Nagi to pardon the debt or give it away does in fact imply giving up on Hayate (at least to Nagi).

---

On a side note, apparently Hata released a (non-h) doujin named Sore ga Seiyuu! EX for Comiket 83.

You pretty much just shot your own argument in the foot. Someone who's just using a debt to coerce people into staying with her because she thinks they'll leave her otherwise is obviously morally inferior to someone who would help someone they loved get rid of an obstacle that might keep them apart.

And FYI , I never said Nagi couldn't refuse to hand over the debt to Ruka. I found her saying 'if you lose, give up on Hayate' to be the WTF portion of the bet.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Anh_Minh

I'm saying that, contrary to what you've said, she does need a bet with Nagi to settle Hayate's debt. That, or take out a(nother) loan, or something to get the money.

It's not like when Isumi (or Nagi) did it. Isumi can do it out of petty cash. Ruka can't.

So Nagi's giving her more of a fighting chance than she needs to. She could refuse to sell the debt at any price. She could insist of Ruka coming up with the money somehow. Instead she's giving Ruka an opportunity to win the necessary money with a contest that most people would think Ruka's overwhelmingly more likely to win.

Not to mention, she forced Hayate out of his denial regarding Ruka's feelings.

Win what money? Ruka still has to pay off Hayate's 150million debt if she wins; unless they changed the agreement of the bet. That's not really a 'win' per se.

I never said she would pay it off immediately in one lump sum. We all know she doesn't have the cash. But if she had to, she would pay it off, the same way she's paying off her own debt, with whatever money she can earn and not need.

And nobody is saying Ruka will do it easily. However, in the manga, the characters themselves comment that Ruka CAN pay off her debt if she works hard enough; either as an idol or mangaka.

You pretty much just shot your own argument in the foot. Someone who's just using a debt to coerce people into staying with her because she thinks they'll leave her otherwise is obviously morally inferior to someone who would help someone they loved get rid of an obstacle that might keep them apart.

And FYI , I never said Nagi couldn't refuse to hand over the debt to Ruka. I found her saying 'if you lose, give up on Hayate' to be the WTF portion of the bet.

Win what money? Ruka still has to pay off Hayate's 150million debt if she wins; unless they changed the agreement of the bet. That's not really a 'win' per se.

I may have to reread the chapter but isn't the bet, whoever wins gets 150m Yen?

Just so we're all clear here, Nagi does in fact have money like that to give away, right? or is she just going to forgive Hayates debt?

Does Nagi still have money like that to give away? IIRC, she had 20million yen left for buying the apartment and she never really gained any more substantial amounts of money from that.

And it's not really clear on the bet. Ruka says she will take on Hayate's debt if she wins while Nagi says there's 150million riding on the bet, which doesn't preclude the scenario that Ruka's betting terms are to transfer the debt over to her.

You pretty much just shot your own argument in the foot. Someone who's just using a debt to coerce people into staying with her because she thinks they'll leave her otherwise is obviously morally inferior to someone who would help someone they loved get rid of an obstacle that might keep them apart.

And FYI , I never said Nagi couldn't refuse to hand over the debt to Ruka. I found her saying 'if you lose, give up on Hayate' to be the WTF portion of the bet.

It's only morally inferior if you choose to romanticize Ruka's actions without understanding that even what she wants has negative consequences. You do realize that Ruka is the one who provoked Nagi into this bet without thinking about the perspective of the man she loves, right? Ruka also never told Hayate about it. If you want to nitpick at something "wrong" about this whole competition, I can name plenty of reasons why both girls are being selfish.

And once again, you don't seem to understand that Ruka also implied Nagi should give on Hayate as well. Neither girl is being "nicer" than the other about it.

Nice words you're using there, like 'provoked'. I somehow suspect you just don't like Ruka. And when did Ruka imply Nagi give up on Hayate? Nagi feels so because deep down, she feels Hayate is with her for the debt, but there's no indication Ruka feels so.

Nice words you're using there, like 'provoked'. I somehow suspect you just don't like Ruka. And when did Ruka imply Nagi give up on Hayate? Nagi feels so because deep down, she feels Hayate is with her for the debt, but there's no indication Ruka feels so.

And state the negative consequences for Hayate if Ruka wins her bet

Personal feelings do not (or at least should not) have any influence on a logical argument. Personally, I think Ruka is the best thing to happen to this series since Golden and and the End of the World arc. Hayate's wishy-washiness common to all harem protagonists is being challenged for once, and Ruka actually has the guts to be honest with her feelings.

But that's not the point. The point is that I don't see why you feel to blow Nagi's actions to be some sin when it's clear that Hata is pushing these two girls against each other to compete for their feelings. Whatever morals you want to push onto others while on top of your slanted pedestal was never important. I merely played the devil's advocate to present the notion that what Ruka is doing is not ideal to others either, and you became defensive, bringing something as irrelevant as personal opinion that has nothing to do with what happened in the story.

Once again, neither Nagi nor Ruka bear any hostility toward each other. You apparently know Ruka so well, but remember that Nagi is the one who told Hayate to take Ruka's feelings seriously and encouraged him to help out Ruka, her opponent. Then there was the manga arc where it's clear that they are friends and how Nagi greatly respects her.

Neither one of them was thinking about how they could hurt each other. The point was that they just want to take (or keep) the man they love. The fact that you believe if one of the two girls will allow some indecisive double dipping when the entire goal of this silly competition is to reach a decisive conclusion to the romance appears more hypocritical to me than what either of the two girls had said or done.

Oh Hayate, yet another girl (from his perspective) appears to confess to you, and you shoot her down by calling her stupid. Hopefully this develops and wasn't a one-and-done chapter. Always enjoy me some Izumi.

In fact, I think every single girl who likes Hayate is richer than him

Except Ruka, who also has a massive debt. But yeah, every other girl comes from serious money, such that they can get into Hakuo. Or, in Ayumu's case, a normal family who isn't swimming in millions of debt.

Except Ruka, who also has a massive debt. But yeah, every other girl comes from serious money, such that they can get into Hakuo. Or, in Ayumu's case, a normal family who isn't swimming in millions of debt.

Even Ruka is technically doing better than Hayate since she should be earning some fair cash for her idol work.

I don't think Nagi or Maria is paying or keeping track of Hayate's debt anymore, so all that leaves is his part-time job at the cafe.

^ It's some what wrong if they aren't. The whole reason Hayate became her butler was so that he can of his debt to Nagi.

Hardly. In chapter 5 when Nagi disguised herself as Mask The Money to save Hayate from the yakuza, she said that she paid off his debt as a present. Hayate insisted that he should pay it back and made a remark about how weird her costume was. That resulted in Nagi becoming angrily tsundere, and in reaction she told him to work and pay it off in full.

At this point, the debt is only a front for their relationship. Hayate genuinely cares about Nagi, and Nagi has always liked Hayate, to the point where she gave up her family fortune to help him.