The other side of the story regarding Bavarian Solutions and Herrubermensch's (Peter's) forced induction M5 build/motor issues

Here is the other side of the story that includes pieces from Bavarian Solutions perspective. This information was sent to BimmerBoost anonymously and we will present the information to you to come to your own conclusion. Thus far, Bavarian Solutions has been relatively quiet while many have taken the owners side some having jumped to conclusions. What we present here is inside information to balance out what was been written thus far and provide additional insight which members have requested.

The owner of the car, Peter, goes by the name Herrubermensch and is a financial/bankruptcy attorney. What we have learned is the owner has bluffed about the motor being disassembled for "forensic" evidence and the car is currently sitting as is at Northeast Motorsports. The owner has been difficult to please and has thrown his weight around as an "attorney" from the beginning. His deal for the built motor was, well, quite the deal. How good? Almost cost on parts and very little on discounted labor. He was in constant communication with Dave at Bavarian Solutions and received quick responses to all of his frequent inquiries, any time of day. We have been told he is difficult to please and demands things to be done his way. Some would describe this as suffering from "attorney syndrome." He makes it very clear to everyone he is an attorney, how important his firm is, how much they bill, etc.

Now, it is true the first built motor was blown and Bavarian Solutions rebuilt it. However, the cause of the failure has been determined to be a defective bank one VANOS unit. Mike from NorthEast Motorsports verified that the defect caused a binding issue. It would seem Peter (the owner of the car in question) agrees with this assessment. When the motor was spun by hand it would lock and when this happens it causes the pistons to collide with the valves which is obviously not a good thing. Bavarian Solutions received blame for this motor although it is my opinion it should be directed at Dr. Vanos. Bavarian Solutions has stayed out of it and is not slinging mud at anyone even though they are taking heat for a failure caused by something which was not their responsibility.

The second failure is either a result of the tuner or the installation. We do not definitively know yet as the motor has not been taken apart to determine the point of failure. We will not delve into the pricing and such but the second motor was not done for free and that is the most we can say about that. Due to the VANOS issue not being sorted they decided not to install it on the second motor. There are a couple videos on M5board that show the motor running fine prior to the tuning. There was nothing wrong with the motor at this point except for a rough idle obviously due to the cams not being calibrated. When the oil was analyzed from the second failure after the tuning, there was no copper in it which has to do with the bearings. There was only aluminum and since Bavarian Solutions uses these pistons in their forced induction builds they are familiar what the results look like due to a piston failure from lack of fuel which is what they believe accounts for the aluminum in the oil.

The tuner was the mysterious Mr. X who has a reputation as a guru. However, why the need for anonymity? All other tuners do not hide behind a secret name. What is the reason for it here? Well, Mr. X's amazing abilities may be a bit overblown. There are two high-dollar failures in South Africa that are attributed to him and he quickly vanished from the scene after the failures, smart move when dealing with big dollar builds in South Africa. This is an area where the anonymity works in his favor as there is apparently a price on his head and a warrant seeking his arrest. There happen to also be a few clients in Puerto Rico who are not too happy with his work. Now the motor ran fine before it was tuned and during the tuning process they heard a loud pop which is documented and they pushed forward.

So what is the true story here? Well, you decide, but our job is to provide you all the pieces. The first failure it would not appear was the fault of Bavarian Solutions and all parties decided to stay away from the VANOS for a reason it would seem. No copper in the oil of the second failure shows it likely was not a build issue. Dave the owner of Bavarian Solutions offered to take the motor apart at his cost to determine the cause of failure. That speaks of confidence in the build and of a courtesy to the customer even though Bavarian Solutions does not have to do this by any means. In addition, Dave offered to do this disassembly in front of Peter with any witnesses he wished to show there was nothing to hide. Peter has not taken Bavarian Solutions up on this and instead has decided to flaunt his legal muscle.

We will keep you updated on any additional developments but this is where things currently stand.

Thanks, but I actually read many more boards than just M5Board. And even more helpfully, I just made it through Banish's books on tuning and was signed up for the initial EFI class, but that was the weekend my engine blew, so I wasn't exactly in the mood. Your underlying thought is a good one, namely, that the M5Board guys, who are really much more sophisticated than you guys give them credit for, should branch out and see what the more serious BMW FI crowd is doing. Conversely, that's precisely what lead me to Dave Vilanova and my current mess.

That is our fundamental point of disagreement. I suspect had you been present when the car was on the dyno and seen the way that it exhibited problems from the very beginning, you might feel different. We literally could not even do one single complete baseline pull. The engine simply would not spin freely.

Perhaps, but I do know individuals who have been present with this motor and they state there were no problems until it was touched by the tuner. A proper, documented disassembly will put this all to rest as this amounts to nothing but a war of words.

Originally Posted by herrubermensch

I agree that disassembly bolsters my case, which is one of the reasons I'm doing it. But it's not necessary.

With all due respect, disassembly is necessary and I believe it is necessary for your knowledge base on vehicles as well.

From some of your posts on M5board recently you have made a few fundamental errors which leads me to believe experts should really be diagnosing this. I know a bit but am nowhere near the level of diagnosing this and neither are you. I do know you made these errors though:

How is it possible for the motor to exhibit piston slap if aluminum expands faster than the steel liners? There would have to be aluminum particulates in the oil from the piston wearing away, not ferrous metal.

You mention that the bore is not concentric due to the bore process not using a torque plate. I hope you are aware that unless a torque plate is fastened to the block, the bore WILL NOT be concentric, as it is not supposed to be when not torqued. It is supposed to be concentric when the block is torqued.

The experts are going to have to diagnose this. If you intend on having VAC do this though there will be problems with Dave not being present. Obviously he isn't going to pay VAC to do it. This is just going to be a mess.

Originally Posted by herrubermensch

My son and I do most of my installations together in a tiny one-car garage in Richmond. Together, we installed my ESS supercharger kit, my RMS intercooler and related heat exchanger, deleted the under-plenum heat exhanger and installed the "Gulf" oil filter housing and stand-alone oil cooler, and many, many other mods. Thus, he is as invested in the car, at least emotionally, as I am. He found the posts by Googling my screen name. He is a regular poster on the M5Board.com, but as you know, that is a significantly different type of environment than this and most other automotive-related boards.

Yep, Google will do the trick Our Google optimization is going quite well so glad it is working.

Nice to hear you and your son work on this together. That is a great father son relationship and I'm sure he appreciates it. My comment was more along the lines of keeping him away from certain sections but since this is your name and not his should not be a problem. As an attorney you are likely familiar with COPPA agreements.

M5board is a very different environment for several reasons. One, the base is not as educated on BMW performance as this one. Secondly, it is run primarily for profit which means even factual dissent is silenced. You likely are not familiar with ASR or Discovery Automotive but M5board censors and shelters members from the real information which led to HUGE losses for members. Numbers that actually put yours to shame with no way to recoup. M5board playing a huge role in those losses.

We are a bit more raw and enthusiast, nor profit, driven. Ultimately, we care about the best for the users and having all the information available which is why you may sometimes see things that are unpleasant yet necessary. It definitely is not an atmosphere for children, M5board would be much better for him and his knowledge level is likely on par with the posters there anyway. Still cool he is into cars at such an early age and you encourage it, props.

Thanks, but I actually read many more boards than just M5Board. And even more helpfully, I just made it through Banish's books on tuning and was signed up for the initial EFI class, but that was the weekend my engine blew, so I wasn't exactly in the mood. Your underlying thought is a good one, namely, that the M5Board guys, who are really much more sophisticated than you guys give them credit for, should branch out and see what the more serious BMW FI crowd is doing. Conversely, that's precisely what lead me to Dave Vilanova and my current mess.

I'm just taking a guess here but were you led to Dave through bimmerforums? If so, you may have seen a car using Bavarian Solutions parts just hit the mid 950's in whp. If they can help accomplish something like that, do you really believe they can't build your project?

They have heads, cams, and various other parts available for some of the strongest builds in the forced induction community. If Dave is taking the high road here and not bashing others and has the confidence to take apart the motor in front of you doesn't that say something? Does his previous track record mean nothing?

There are some great guys on M5board, but mostly it is filled with individuals with more money than brains and in the BMW forum sphere it is the last stop for up to date technical information. Partially due to an older crowd more reluctant to mod their cars to a high level and also due to a highly censored atmosphere. Great place to buy DVD's from Gustav though.

With all due respect, disassembly is necessary and I believe it is necessary for your knowledge base on vehicles as well. From some of your posts on M5board recently you have made a few fundamental errors which leads me to believe experts should really be diagnosing this. I know a bit but am nowhere near the level of diagnosing this and neither are you. I do know you made these errors though: How is it possible for the motor to exhibit piston slap if aluminum expands faster than the steel liners? There would have to be aluminum particulates in the oil from the piston wearing away, not ferrous metal. You mention that the bore is not concentric due to the bore process not using a torque plate. I hope you are aware that unless a torque plate is fastened to the block, the bore WILL NOT be concentric, as it is not supposed to be when not torqued. It is supposed to be concentric when the block is torqued. The experts are going to have to diagnose this. If you intend on having VAC do this though there will be problems with Dave not being present. Obviously he isn't going to pay VAC to do it. This is just going to be a mess.

You mistate my posts, and the facts are that there is a ton of ferrous material in the pan (there may be some aluminum, too, but the salient material is ferrous), the engine will not spin freely even with the vanos deleted (it still does not), and piston slap occurs in every cylinder. There is no opinion about any of this. They are simply facts. Nothing that Mr. X did to the car--which consisted of idle control, then trying to get a baseline--could have been the proximate cause of the foregoing. My point about disassembly not being necessary is a legal one; that is, it is not necessary to prove breach. Nevertheless, as I stated above, I am having VAC perform a complete teardown and analysis in order to refute any "supervening cause" defense that Dave may try to establish, and Dave is, as I also said above, more than welcome to attend--the same offer he made to me. If in fact I prove breach, Dave absolutely is responsible for the teardown costs as part of the damages. Again, that is a legal point, not opinion.

Originally Posted by Sticky

Perhaps, but I do know individuals who have been present with this motor and they state there were no problems until it was touched by the tuner.

I know to whom you are referring, and that person was not present when the engine was put on the dyno. That person had no basis on which to draw the extremely broad conclusion that "there was nothing wrong with the motor" before it was touched by the tuner.

Originally Posted by BigM62

I'm just taking a guess here but were you led to Dave through bimmerforums? If so, you may have seen a car using Bavarian Solutions parts just hit the mid 950's in whp. If they can help accomplish something like that, do you really believe they can't build your project? They have heads, cams, and various other parts available for some of the strongest builds in the forced induction community. If Dave is taking the high road here and not bashing others and has the confidence to take apart the motor in front of you doesn't that say something? Does his previous track record mean nothing?

And about Bavarian Solutions. I picked them to do my motor through contacts on multiple boards, starting with one on the M5Board, and as a result of precisely the "track record" you refer to (as to S50 and S52 builds) and Dave's own statements about their capabilities. The problem is that they have no track record at all when it comes to S62s, and they subcontract out each component to different vendors, leaving no one tech responsible for the assembly and blueprinting of the engine--something I have come to discover after the fact. Bavarian Solutions is exactly the same as Discovery Automotive in the sense that it is nothing more than an aggregator of subcontractors, though unlike D/A, Bavarian Solutions does not even have an actual shop of its own. If you ever meet Dave at "his shop," you will go to Headway Motorsports in the Bronx, which is run by Ramone. That is who does all of Dave's headwork, and he seems like a very knowledgeable and respectable guy. In fact, his heads and the custom cams he designed with his software may very well be the best custom parts that Dave sourced for me. Dave is a very good salesman, and I do think many of the parts he sourced for me are very high quality. Fortunately, it looks like I will be able to reuse many of those parts.

In any event, contrary to your presumption based on my M5Board.com membership, I know D/A and Bill Knobloch and G-Power and the tuner behind it and so on. Also, you speak as if I haven't spent the better part of a year speaking almost daily with Dave Vilanova about my project and before that about Bavarian Solution's purported capabilities. I know what Dave claims to be capable of, I know I bought it hook line and sinker, I know I paid exactly what he asked for (he did not reveal the purported "huge discount" until after the first motor blew up) when he asked for it and then some. I paid extra for the engine build to be expedited the first time around and clearly didn't get the benefit of that bargain. What I wound up with after $50k and nearly a year of dealing with Dave is essentially a bunch of parts, some of which may in fact be very high quality and reusable. That result may be acceptable to those on this board, but it is not to me. It won't be right to a judge or jury either. But as you said, there's no point to continuing to beat that horse and try the case by Internet. It is what it is, and the result will be what it will be.

And Big M62--Raza is not in high school. He's an engineering student at the University of Texas.

I know to whom you are referring, and that person was not present when the engine was put on the dyno. That person had no basis on which to draw the extremely broad conclusion that "there was nothing wrong with the motor" before it was touched by the tuner.

My reference was plural.

Originally Posted by herrubermensch

You mistate my posts, and the facts are that there is a ton of ferrous material in the pan (there may be some aluminum, too, but the salient material is ferrous), the engine will not spin freely even with the vanos deleted (it still does not), and piston slap occurs in every cylinder. There is no opinion about any of this. They are simply facts. Nothing that Mr. X did to the car--which consisted of idle control, then trying to get a baseline--could have been the proximate cause of the foregoing. My point about disassembly not being necessary is a legal one; that is, it is not necessary to prove breach. Nevertheless, as I stated above, I am having VAC perform a complete teardown and analysis in order to refute any "supervening cause" defense that Dave may try to establish, and Dave is, as I also said above, more than welcome to attend--the same offer he made to me. If in fact I prove breach, Dave absolutely is responsible for the teardown costs as part of the damages. Again, that is a legal point, not opinion.

You would have to take a look at my earlier post regarding piston slap. You have steel liners right? Aluminum expands faster, there would have to aluminum in the oil then not ferrous material.

Hasn't the oil already been analyzed?

I agree with you, if you prove the breach which you have not yet but that will all take place. Once again, this is the point of contention and in my opinion to prove it the way you are going to need to it will involve a teardown.

Originally Posted by herrubermensch

And about Bavarian Solutions. I picked them to do my motor through contacts on multiple boards, starting with one on the M5Board, and as a result of precisely the "track record" you refer to (as to S50 and S52 builds) and Dave's own statements about their capabilities. The problem is that they have no track record at all when it comes to S62s, and they subcontract out each component to different vendors, leaving no one tech responsible for the assembly and blueprinting of the engine--something I have come to discover after the fact

I have not seen many of their builds with M62/S62 motors, true. Their track record with the S50's is spectacular.

Subcontracting as you refer to it is pretty common. Parts are going to come from different companies and shops. The main thing BavSol learned here I think is to not trust others the way they have in the past. The Vanos being a key example.

Originally Posted by herrubermensch

Bavarian Solutions is exactly the same as Discovery Automotive in the sense that it is nothing more than an aggregator of subcontractors, though unlike D/A, Bavarian Solutions does not even have an actual shop of its own. If you ever meet Dave at "his shop," you will go to Headway Motorsports in the Bronx, which is run by Ramone. That is who does all of Dave's headwork, and he seems like a very knowledgeable and respectable guy. In fact, his heads and the custom cams he designed with his software may very well be the best custom parts that Dave sourced for me. Dave is a very good salesman, and I do think many of the parts he sourced for me are very high quality. Fortunately, it looks like I will be able to reuse many of those parts.

Bavarian Solutions has never hid this, they are essentially the German branch of headway. This is all pretty well known.

It is actually Discovery Automotive that has no shop, operates out of Bill's garage, and the business if you even want to call it that is uninsured. I'm sure you saw the whole debacle with him wrecking a customers Ford GT and essentially covering it up by going into hiding?

Originally Posted by herrubermensch

In any event, contrary to your presumption based on my M5Board.com membership, I know D/A and Bill Knobloch and G-Power and the tuner behind it and so on. Also, you speak as if I haven't spent the better part of a year speaking almost daily with Dave Vilanova about my project and before that about Bavarian Solution's purported capabilities. I know what Dave claims to be capable of, I know I bought it hook line and sinker, I know I paid exactly what he asked for (he did not reveal the purported "huge discount" until after the first motor blew up) when he asked for it and then some. I paid extra for the engine build to be expedited the first time around and clearly didn't get the benefit of that bargain. What I wound up with after $50k and nearly a year of dealing with Dave is essentially a bunch of parts, some of which may in fact be very high quality and reusable. That result may be acceptable to those on this board, but it is not to me. It won't be right to a judge or jury either. But as you said, there's no point to continuing to beat that horse and try the case by Internet. It is what it is, and the result will be what it will be.

I speak knowing what I do as many have not been privy to information from the other side. When something like this happens, people are quick to jump to conclusions. I really don't know what more Dave can do for you other than offer to take the motor apart in front of you to determine 100% accurately what went wrong. If Mr.X is shown to blame are you going to be able to get him to cover it? Of course not.

I have no idea what you paid but have been told it was a considerable discount almost at cost. I can't figure out what you paid $50k for from what you have stated. I am building an E92 M3 with a custom low compression motor, custom built DCT transmission (these retail for around $20k from BMW), supercharger, custom exhaust, custom tuning, custom DCT cooler, headers, meth, etc., which is well beyond your build and it isn't $50k.

A built BMW V8 should not cost that much. I just don't understand where it is coming from?

Either way, this will get settled one way or another I just hope it is done in a manner that is fair to all parties.

Do you still intend to press forward with VAC and try to get Dave to pay for the disassembly?

M5board is a very different environment for several reasons. One, the base is not as educated on BMW performance as this one. Secondly, it is run primarily for profit which means even factual dissent is silenced. You likely are not familiar with ASR or Discovery Automotive but M5board censors and shelters members from the real information which led to HUGE losses for members. Numbers that actually put yours to shame with no way to recoup. M5board playing a huge role in those losses.

There are some great guys on M5board, but mostly it is filled with individuals with more money than brains and in the BMW forum sphere it is the last stop for up to date technical information. Partially due to an older crowd more reluctant to mod their cars to a high level and also due to a highly censored atmosphere. Great place to buy DVD's from Gustav though.

lol you can talk bad about me on a personal level all you would like. my work speaks for itself.

you have been talking about your car since october 2009, i have yet to see you back anything up. does your car even run? or you a bunch of smoke?

please tell me it at leasts runs!

I take it you have not read my thread on my fully built S62 camshaft 4.9L M62? That build took almost 1 year because I kept changing my ideas about the build. Now, my car is at RMS getting a Vortech V7 ysi, 8 ribbed, custom 1 in the world aftercooler/intake manifold for the E34 540i. Thank-you for following my build though, and I am happy for your kit also. My apologies that I though you were still in HS. What class are you at UT? Senior or grad student? Engineering is a noble profession and good luck!

I take it you have not read my thread on my fully built S62 camshaft 4.9L M62? That build took almost 1 year because I kept changing my ideas about the build. Now, my car is at RMS getting a Vortech V7 ysi, 8 ribbed, custom 1 in the world aftercooler/intake manifold for the E34 540i. Thank-you for following my build though, and I am happy for your kit also. My apologies that I though you were still in HS. What class are you at UT? Senior or grad student? Engineering is a noble profession and good luck!

i have read your thread, which is why i asked if your cars running, you never said anywhere in the thread your car was running, i dont even think its tuned, but since oct 09 you've been saying it is going to RMS next week. so since oct 09 (thats when your engine was done, so project probably started sometime around march 09) your car still has not run, but yet you were quick to insult me? last i checked my cars not a big paperweight.

i have read your thread, which is why i asked if your cars running, you never said anywhere in the thread your car was running, i dont even think its tuned, but since oct 09 you've been saying it is going to RMS next week. so since oct 09 (thats when your engine was done, so project probably started sometime around march 09) your car still has not run, but yet you were quick to insult me? last i checked my cars not a big paperweight.

makes perfect sense to me?

but i do accept your apology.

-R

Why don't you discuss his car in his thread about his build? Let's keep this on topic.

I have no idea what you paid but have been told it was a considerable discount almost at cost. I can't figure out what you paid $50k for from what you have stated. I am building an E92 M3 with a custom low compression motor, custom built DCT transmission (these retail for around $20k from BMW), supercharger, custom exhaust, custom tuning, custom DCT cooler, headers, meth, etc., which is well beyond your build and it isn't $50k. A built BMW V8 should not cost that much. I just don't understand where it is coming from? Either way, this will get settled one way or another I just hope it is done in a manner that is fair to all parties. Do you still intend to press forward with VAC and try to get Dave to pay for the disassembly?

I assure you (and Dave, as I'm sure he is lurking) that the process will be fair and open. I have nothing to hide. I absolutely will promulgate the results of the tear down and analyses--regardless of how they come out. The invoices I paid to Dave by wire transfers for parts, labor and all the shipping/expedited costs alone total $35,204.41. The headwork was $5,295.95. The billet cams $3,650. The pistons $2,494.95. The 300M rods $2,495.95. Sleeving of block $2,850. Shimming of the solid lifters $850. And on and on. The engine I bought and sent to Dave to build cost $5500, as it was a very nice example of a low mileage S62. (I bought this in lieu of buying a new block and new heads for Dave to build). Finally, I have incurred nearly $10k of out of pocket expenses for the costs relating to both engine blow ups and the costs of rebuilding the car the both times. Admittedly, these costs would have been much higher had Dave not stepped up to the plate the first time around.

The upshot is I just want my car back and running at least as well as it was before this debacle began. I was hitting 500-550 whp with pre- and post-SCer methanol injection at 7-8 psi boost on a very tired engine with a ton of blow-by and 140k on the clock. And my car was a constant source of happiness for my son and me, rather than the logistical, legal and monetary mess it has become. I simply cannot trust Dave to handle this--not this time. It took him five months last time to provide me with an engine that didn't even make it through establishment of the baseline on the dyno. Three times the charm? I don't think so.

I assure you (and Dave, as I'm sure he is lurking) that the process will be fair and open. I have nothing to hide. I absolutely will promulgate the results of the tear down and analyses--regardless of how they come out.

That is absolutely fair. I just think it is important to make sure if you are not willing to let Dave tear it apart that a third party does so and shows the pieces. I'm not saying I do not trust you just that it is best to have the experts handle it.

Originally Posted by herrubermensch

The invoices I paid to Dave by wire transfers for parts, labor and all the shipping/expedited costs alone total $35,204.41. The headwork was $5,295.95. The billet cams $3,650. The pistons $2,494.95. The 300M rods $2,495.95. Sleeving of block $2,850. Shimming of the solid lifters $850. And on and on.

Yes, I heard something in the 30's which made much more sense to me.

Originally Posted by herrubermensch

Finally, I have incurred nearly $10k of out of pocket expenses for the costs relating to both engine blow ups and the costs of rebuilding the car the both times. Admittedly, these costs would have been much higher had Dave not stepped up to the plate the first time around.

This I am surprised to see from you. Well done, a little contrition and admitting that Dave did accommodate. These aren't bad people and although I don't know you I'm thinking you are ultimately a car enthusiast. We can get past all this nastiness as it is a dark cloud hanging over the S62 community at the moment.

Originally Posted by herrubermensch

The upshot is I just want my car back and running at least as well as it was before this debacle began. I was hitting 500-550 whp with pre- and post-SCer methanol injection at 7-8 psi boost on a very tired engine with a ton of blow-by and 140k on the clock. And my car was a constant source of happiness for my son and me, rather than the logistical, legal and monetary mess it has become. I simply cannot trust Dave to handle this--not this time. It took him five months last time to provide me with an engine that didn't even make it through establishment of the baseline on the dyno. Three times the charm? I don't think so.

Look, I understand your line of thinking. My personal belief is that you are incorrect but let's simply look at it as each of us having differing opinions. Really, when you tear it down and the analysis takes place we will know much more. This is a BMW performance site and really is becoming the preeminent source of technical information in the high end BMW modification scene. If anything positive can come from it is adding knowledge to the base for future reference so that these problems can be avoided in the future. For now, I think it would best for all of us to simply wait until we see the internals and go from there.

We can all be civilized and learn something from this. I know it is a lot of money, trust me I know your frustrations (I'm sitting on a build going over one year now), and it isn't easy.

When you modify cars to this high level you have to understand there really isn't a time frame. It gets done when it gets done and there will be problems along the way. I have NEVER seen a top tier build go exactly as planned on a set schedule. There will be hiccups, although blown motors are a bit more than a hiccup.

I'm not telling you to have Dave build your motor a third time, but if Dave was willing to help you the second time after the Vanos failure I think it would at least show some decency and respect on your part to involve Dave in the disassembly. That can't be too much to ask or unreasonable.

i have read your thread, which is why i asked if your cars running, you never said anywhere in the thread your car was running, i dont even think its tuned, but since oct 09 you've been saying it is going to RMS next week. so since oct 09 (thats when your engine was done, so project probably started sometime around march 09) your car still has not run, but yet you were quick to insult me? last i checked my cars not a big paperweight

makes perfect sense to me?

but i do accept your apology.
-R

I AM sorry, you are correct Raza, you are not in high school, you just act like you are.

"I'm not telling you to have Dave build your motor a third time, but if Dave was willing to help you the second time after the Vanos failure I think it would at least show some decency and respect on your part to involve Dave in the disassembly. That can't be too much to ask or unreasonable."

I think this a fair and honest assessment of the situation. However, from Peter's point of view, this hardly matters. I believe most here just want Peter to have a awesome running M5 for the community to embrace. Too bad we are such a litigious society where sue first seems to be the norm. Either way, I commend Peter and Sticky on a very interesting and informative thread.