When I meditate, namely by watching the breath, I find lots of random thoughts come and go. I don't cling to them, but they are still there just the same. Is that okay? Or must there be no thoughts? I am not talking about getting caught up in a certain thought to the point of forgetting the breath. I am talking about how you notice thoughts come and go EVEN WHILE you're watching the breath. Does that make sense?

I have been meditating for four years now and still have trouble with discursive thinking. I just keep practicing and hope the rushing thoughts will eventually calm down. Some days are better than others, but from what I understand the goal isn't to have no thoughts anyhow.Lise

lisehull wrote:I have been meditating for four years now and still have trouble with discursive thinking. I just keep practicing and hope the rushing thoughts will eventually calm down. Some days are better than others, but from what I understand the goal isn't to have no thoughts anyhow.Lise

For some people it takes years. One important thing is to remain in the present and enjoy the moment. Boredom often results in the mind wandering off into past memories or future possibilities. If you can enjoy the present moment and breath, then staying in the present becomes natural.

The point of single-pointed focus is to have pure untainted focus on the object (such as the breath). Even without proceeding to jhānas/dhyānas, such states are still contrary to afflicted states and thus work to remedy afflictions.

This is why after a solid session of śamatha such afflictions like fear, anxiety, desire and so on seem to vanish, though they're prone to reappear of course.

Meditation without thoughts is just another shape of meditation with thoughts. They are just like left and right hand. No one is better than another.

The key is understanding the nature of the thoughts and no thoughts. Both share the same nature, which is rootless and baseless.

Once you realize that rootless and baseless, nothing can shake you.

Now, your meditation can be shaken by the thoughts, because you feel your thoughts are very solid. You feel as if there a collision between you and thoughts, as if there is this collision between stone (the meditator) and stone (thoughts).

But, once you realize rootless and baseless, you will feel that there is no longer collision. It is like the mist meeting the mist. It will not bang and collide. It will just pass by without any essence. Rootless and baseless.

Because of that, there is stillness and serenity in the middle of thoughts, in the middle of no thoughts, or in the middle of anything.

There is absolutely no different whether you have thoughts or you don't have thoughts.

If you really find out this rootless and baseless at the direct experience level, and someone ask you - which one do you prefer, meditation with thoughts or no thoughts?

You don't prefer one of them. Any of them is not an issue, because they are essentially same.

Even you meditate for 50 years and you have 50 years of thoughts, it is exactly same with the meditation of 50 years without thoughts.

The key is in realizing this rootless and baseless.

I am not here nor there.I am not right nor wrong.I do not exist neither non-exist.I am not I nor non-I.I am not in samsara nor nirvana.To All Buddhas, I bow down for the teaching of emptiness. Thank You!

I've been meditating for over 26 years now. If you find it difficult to focus and focusing on breathing isn't helping I can give you a few tips that helped me and has helped my students.

If you have a flame, whether this is a candle flame, a small night light or a fake flame it is of no importance, it serves the same purpose. Focus on the flame, your sight will waiver but this is normal.

Imagine your at the top of a waterfall during your meditation. As the thoughts and worries travel through your head, imagine them leaving your mind and going into the waterfall, the water taking them away.

Also a clear quartz crystal helsp to centre and focus your energies.

It is best not to try to meditate if you have worries or concerns on your mind. Instead it is best to meditate later when your mind is calmer.

Having thoughts or no is of no revelance. I was taught that the purpose of meditation is to centre and ground yourself. Also to get your energies correct (re-aligned) before you start the day (in morning meditation) and before you go sleep (at night-time meditation).

"Dwelling on whether you have thoughts or no stops the flow of energy that meditation is supposed to have. It prevents this practice from achieving its full potential in you" Quote from one of my early meditation teachers.

bunny wrote:Having thoughts or no is of no revelance. I was taught that the purpose of meditation is to centre and ground yourself. Also to get your energies correct (re-aligned) before you start the day (in morning meditation) and before you go sleep (at night-time meditation).

"Dwelling on whether you have thoughts or no stops the flow of energy that meditation is supposed to have. It prevents this practice from achieving its full potential in you" Quote from one of my early meditation teachers.

This doesn't apply, really, to Buddhist meditation. Apologies if this is basic stuff to you but...

underthetree: that is no problem, I am not a Buddhist so my meditation pratices will be different. A few questions... Why apologise to me if you thought that this was basic stuff to me? and also surely the end goal is the same?

I would say it depends on what type of meditation you practice. I've practiced in both Theravada and the Zen tradition. In Theravada, my thoughts would eventually quiet, but only during intensive retreats. In zazen, my thoughts arise and fall depending on my state of mind. Others traditions may have different views.

The Great Way is not difficultIf only there is no picking or choosing--- Xin Xin Ming