Bad Heat Pump Compressor?

Our two year old Trane XL1400 stopped working about a week ago. The
hint was the aux heat was on nearly all the time - outside temp in the
40's. I felt the "fat?" pipe coming out of the heat pump - it was
cold. Measured the compressor motor current, it was about 7.7 Amps.
Indicator LED was flashing once per second (normal).

Called the service guy, when he opened the heat pump panel, the light
was flashing 2 per second. First he thought it was the ambient temp
sensor, went to his truck, came back saying he didn't have one with him
but remembered the sensor was only used for cooling. He checked the
fluid pressure, said it was OK. After a while he measured the motor
coil resistance - it was open. Said it was a bad compressor and he'd
have the guy in the office order a new one. I asked if it could be the
motor internal protection being open. Maybe. Later, his boss calls,
says leave the fuses disconnected so they can check in the morning
after the motor has time to cool. It had been a few hours so I check
the motor resistance and it looks OK so I start it up - no heat, motor
current 7.7A, light still flashing 2X per second. Turn it off, decide
to measure ambient temp sensor. In the process I disconnect and
reconnect the main cable to the defrost control board - the light
returns to one flash per second (normal), so I turn the whole thing
back on and it works. Tech comes out next day and says everything
looks OK, it must have been a clogged filter in indoor unit (I had just
replaced it).

Finally, my question <g>: is it likely that the compressor is really
bad? Given that it ran OK for a couple of days I'm a little confused.
The motor current seems reasonable to me. Is it likely that the motor
could be running OK but the compressor itself is bad? Also, although
the tech is very pleasant, I'm somehow don't quite trust his diagnostic
abilities yet. He seemed surprised when when turned the thermostat up
4 degrees and the aux heat came on.

They are to come out today and install a new compressor ($840 for
labor).

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"gary64" <> wrote in message
news:...
> Our two year old Trane XL1400 stopped working about a week ago. The
> hint was the aux heat was on nearly all the time - outside temp in the
> 40's. I felt the "fat?" pipe coming out of the heat pump - it was
> cold. Measured the compressor motor current, it was about 7.7 Amps.
> Indicator LED was flashing once per second (normal).
>
> Called the service guy, when he opened the heat pump panel, the light
> was flashing 2 per second. First he thought it was the ambient temp
> sensor, went to his truck, came back saying he didn't have one with him
> but remembered the sensor was only used for cooling. He checked the
> fluid pressure, said it was OK. After a while he measured the motor
> coil resistance - it was open. Said it was a bad compressor and he'd
> have the guy in the office order a new one. I asked if it could be the
> motor internal protection being open. Maybe. Later, his boss calls,
> says leave the fuses disconnected so they can check in the morning
> after the motor has time to cool. It had been a few hours so I check
> the motor resistance and it looks OK so I start it up - no heat, motor
> current 7.7A, light still flashing 2X per second. Turn it off, decide
> to measure ambient temp sensor. In the process I disconnect and
> reconnect the main cable to the defrost control board - the light
> returns to one flash per second (normal), so I turn the whole thing
> back on and it works. Tech comes out next day and says everything
> looks OK, it must have been a clogged filter in indoor unit (I had just
> replaced it).
>
> Two days later, no heat. Tech comes out, intalls "fast start?" kit.
> No heat. Says compressor is bad.
>
> Finally, my question <g>: is it likely that the compressor is really
> bad? Given that it ran OK for a couple of days I'm a little confused.
> The motor current seems reasonable to me. Is it likely that the motor
> could be running OK but the compressor itself is bad? Also, although
> the tech is very pleasant, I'm somehow don't quite trust his diagnostic
> abilities yet. He seemed surprised when when turned the thermostat up
> 4 degrees and the aux heat came on.
>
> They are to come out today and install a new compressor ($840 for
> labor).
>
> I'd appreciate any suggestions.

Before they touch the compressor, and bend you over for $840, tell them
bring out a *REAL* tech and not just a compressor salesman, then call Trane
and tell them everything you said here. You might also call another Trane
dealer and get a second opinion... it might cost you $100 for the service
call, but thats a lot better than $840.

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Guest

There are three types of "techs"...

one is highly skilled , ethical....will take pride in diagnosing your
problems and fixing the problem...he wont just bandaid it either...he
will find the root cause of your trouble and make it right too.
compressors just dont fail...there is a reason behind the failure....a
good "technician" will find out why the compressor failed and will
remedy the situation.

Two..."tech" is more of a salesnician...he has minimal hvac
troubleshooting training and is more familiar with selling you a new
compressor or other part..... when he sticks his leak detector into the
unit cabinet without removing doors and says it has a non repairable
leak...its a salesnician... they can also be recognized by replacing
multiple unrelated parts on a system with the excuse that ones failure
caused the other....(" the compressor capacitor went bad and it fried
your thermostat") Sometimes tech two is pushed into his situation by
his employer...many employers pay on a scale based on what parts or
equipment sales the tech generates...some provide bonus money on parts
or equipment sold...this leads to greed on many a technicians part.....

Third guy has a good heart but just lacks training...he wants to do a
good job but he works for a hack outfit who provides no in house
training and wont send the guys to school or even to the many supply
house sponsered training sessions.
He wants to find out the cause but just lacks the knowledge...a good
kid...and would probably make a great tech one day if he gets some
training.

You have tech two or three....more than likely three...just an
uneducated "technician"

I think you're right, he's a three. I just don't want to pay his
tuition.
>
> Third guy has a good heart but just lacks training...he wants to do a
> good job but he works for a hack outfit who provides no in house
> training and wont send the guys to school or even to the many supply
> house sponsered training sessions.
> He wants to find out the cause but just lacks the knowledge...a good
> kid...and would probably make a great tech one day if he gets some
> training.
>
> You have tech two or three....more than likely three...just an
> uneducated "technician"

"is it likely that the compressor is really
bad? Given that it ran OK for a couple of days I'm a little confused.
The motor current seems reasonable to me. Is it likely that the motor
could be running OK but the compressor itself is bad? "

"gary64" <> wrote in message
news:...
>I still have my basic question:
>
> "is it likely that the compressor is really
> bad? Given that it ran OK for a couple of days I'm a little confused.
> The motor current seems reasonable to me. Is it likely that the motor
> could be running OK but the compressor itself is bad? "

Let me get this straight.... you do a hard reset on the defrost control
board, then it starts working and you still want to replace the
compressor??? Maybe if you called a *competent*, licensed, insured,
professionally trained, HVAC technician to properly diagnose and repair the
system, you will find that the problem has nothing to do with the compressor
at all.

On 1 Feb 2006 08:33:53 -0800, "gary64" <> wrote:
>I still have my basic question:
>
>"is it likely that the compressor is really
>bad? Given that it ran OK for a couple of days I'm a little confused.
>The motor current seems reasonable to me. Is it likely that the motor
>could be running OK but the compressor itself is bad? "

Yes Gary. Your compressor is bad. Usually, a couple days before the
compressor finally quits, it acts like yours has been doing.
Sometimes, it does this several times before it quits all together.
Do yourself a favor. Replace the whole system. Dont just replace the
compressor or outdoor unit only. Get yourself a new 19 SEER heat pump
with a variable speed air handler. Should only cost you around 10K
which is a great deal because of the higher SEER ratings this year.
You'll save tons of money and probably pay back your system in only 2
years. It should save enough to take the family on a Hawaiian
vacation.
Bubba

"gary64" <> wrote in message
news:...
> Our two year old Trane XL1400 stopped working about a week ago. The
> hint was the aux heat was on nearly all the time - outside temp in the
> 40's. I felt the "fat?" pipe coming out of the heat pump - it was
> cold. Measured the compressor motor current, it was about 7.7 Amps.
> Indicator LED was flashing once per second (normal).
>
> Called the service guy, when he opened the heat pump panel, the light
> was flashing 2 per second. First he thought it was the ambient temp
> sensor, went to his truck, came back saying he didn't have one with him
> but remembered the sensor was only used for cooling. He checked the
> fluid pressure, said it was OK. After a while he measured the motor
> coil resistance - it was open. Said it was a bad compressor and he'd
> have the guy in the office order a new one. I asked if it could be the
> motor internal protection being open. Maybe. Later, his boss calls,
> says leave the fuses disconnected so they can check in the morning
> after the motor has time to cool. It had been a few hours so I check
> the motor resistance and it looks OK so I start it up - no heat, motor
> current 7.7A, light still flashing 2X per second. Turn it off, decide
> to measure ambient temp sensor. In the process I disconnect and
> reconnect the main cable to the defrost control board - the light
> returns to one flash per second (normal), so I turn the whole thing
> back on and it works. Tech comes out next day and says everything
> looks OK, it must have been a clogged filter in indoor unit (I had just
> replaced it).
>
> Two days later, no heat. Tech comes out, intalls "fast start?" kit.
> No heat. Says compressor is bad.
>
> Finally, my question <g>: is it likely that the compressor is really
> bad? Given that it ran OK for a couple of days I'm a little confused.
> The motor current seems reasonable to me. Is it likely that the motor
> could be running OK but the compressor itself is bad? Also, although
> the tech is very pleasant, I'm somehow don't quite trust his diagnostic
> abilities yet. He seemed surprised when when turned the thermostat up
> 4 degrees and the aux heat came on.
>
> They are to come out today and install a new compressor ($840 for
> labor).
>
> I'd appreciate any suggestions.
>

Bubba, this unit was installed in Aug 2002 - complete with variable
speed air handler, etc etc. Its not 19 seer though. I'm not very
knowledgeable about seer ratings but aren't they only about cooling?
We use our air conditioning maybe 5 to 10 days a year. That's one of
the reasons we live here (Pacific Northwest).

I apolgize, I miss-stated the model number in my original post. Its a
2.5 ton Trane XL14i. We also have a XL18. Both have digital
thermostats. The smaller compressor failed in the XL18 after about 4
years. I won't likely buy another Trane.

My wife was in the process of composing a letter to the President of
Trane when the local installation/service company called wanting to
postpone the install of the new compressor - sick child at home. My
wife let him know that she was writing to Trane and, in the process
said she'd also send it to The Home Depot - the dealer works with Home
Depot and has a space in the local store to sell Trane. That got his
attention! He sent out his "senior" tech.

This tech was obviously much more knowledgeable than the first. He
went throught the entire system - starting with the indoor unit (in the
attic, 60 ft of pipe from it to the outdoor unit). When he looked at
the outdoor unit, he said it was 2.5 ton, the fan speed on the air
handler was set for 2 ton. Next he hooked up his gauges, clipped on
temperature sensors, and fired up the outdoor unit. Motor current was
7.5 amps and it seemed to be working OK. After 15-20 minutes, he said
the pressure was higher than he'd like (over 400 psi) so he shut it
down, went upstairs and changed the dip switch settings on the air
handler. Started the test again, pressure still rose to over 400 psi,
then he bled some of the gas from the system. Finally, the pressure
stayed under 400 (I don't recall reading). He said it really needs to
be set under air conditioning conditions.

Told me to watch it and call them if it failed again. There was really
no need to tell me that <g>.

> I apolgize, I miss-stated the model number in my original post. Its a
> 2.5 ton Trane XL14i. We also have a XL18. Both have digital
> thermostats. The smaller compressor failed in the XL18 after about 4
> years. I won't likely buy another Trane.
>

I just popped in for a moment, I've been too busy to hang around here lately

First, its not a Trane product. Did you know Trane has some of the LOWEST
compressor failures in the HVAC industry?
So, if you lost all these compressors it isn't Tranes fault, guess whos
fault it is.
1. Who ever hired the company who installed them, you or the general
contractor who built the house is at fault for hiring hacks
2. The installers either of the equipment or air supply is at fault, along
with the designer of the system
3. Probably brazed with no inert gas and caused all kinds of nasty things
inside the copper refrigerant lines. This ruins compressors

> My wife was in the process of composing a letter to the President of
> Trane when the local installation/service company called wanting to
> postpone the install of the new compressor - sick child at home. My
> wife let him know that she was writing to Trane and, in the process
> said she'd also send it to The Home Depot - the dealer works with Home
> Depot and has a space in the local store to sell Trane. That got his
> attention! He sent out his "senior" tech

Thats your problem right there, HOME DEPOT!! Do you REALY think a dealer
who knows his stuff will do work for them for half of what he makes with a
regular install? Your going to see a lot of this in the future. NEVER buy
technical stuff from a company who sells lumber!!!! You sound like you have
a lot of money but no common sense! I'm not being insulting here, just
honest! You go to a place where they pay thier people minimum wage, contract
with dealers who have to give them a percentage of the sale and you expect
quality?

> This tech was obviously much more knowledgeable than the first. He
> went throught the entire system - starting with the indoor unit (in the
> attic, 60 ft of pipe from it to the outdoor unit).

60 feet of pipe, I QUARANTEE that the pipe isn't sized correctly or has oil
traps in it or kinks.

When he looked at
> the outdoor unit, he said it was 2.5 ton, the fan speed on the air
> handler was set for 2 ton.

That means NOTHING! NOTHING NOTHING! Did he VERIFY the Cubic Feet per
minute of air flow? I bet he doesn't even know how!

Next he hooked up his gauges, clipped on
> temperature sensors, and fired up the outdoor unit. Motor current was
> 7.5 amps and it seemed to be working OK. After 15-20 minutes, he said
> the pressure was higher than he'd like (over 400 psi) so he shut it
> down, went upstairs and changed the dip switch settings on the air
> handler. Started the test again, pressure still rose to over 400 psi,
> then he bled some of the gas from the system.

How did he bleed the gas? What procedure did he use?

Finally, the pressure
> stayed under 400 (I don't recall reading). He said it really needs to
> be set under air conditioning conditions.

YOU HAVE TO BE KIDDING ME!!!! This is the BEST TECH????
THIS IS TERRIBLE, absolutly crimininal!!

Paul, don't tell this guy to go away because this is really exciting to see
how this 'best tech' is fixing this high COP heat pump!LOL
>
> Told me to watch it and call them if it failed again. There was really
> no need to tell me that <g>.
>
> So far, its still working (6 hours later).

So far the unit is STILL charged incorrectly, and soon enough due to it you
WILL loose the compressor, and then you will blame Trane again.

If you want to blame Trane, the only real thing you can do is tell them the
truth, they make a great piece of equipemnt but they suck at selling
equipment to those companies who should not even have a license.

I make no false claim here, every experienced tech will tell you what I'm
telling you is the truth, That company is a HACK and should be out of
buisness!!! You ARE paying too much for energy, you ARE ruining your
compressor, and if you continue to use this dealer your a fool, that is if
what you say this guy did is true.

Tell us where your at, there are good people on this group that CAN and will
tune it correctly and tell you the truth about what needs to be done.

>
> We'll see.
Nothing to wait for, its a dead issue, litterally, the compressor is going
to fail, period. I can't begin to number the offences that this jerk
commited.
Too tired to spell check, will stop back next week if possible.
>

<.p.jm@see_my_sig_for_address.com> wrote in message
news:...
> On 1 Feb 2006 05:35:13 -0800, "gary64" <> wrote:
>
>>Our two year old Trane XL1400 stopped working about a week ago. The
>
> Alt.home.repair, not here.

OK, so you hired a hack like the asshole who told you not to post here.
That's water under the bridge, where do you go from here?
Unless I missed something, you have no obligation to this company. They
tried to charge you $840 labor for a compressor you don't need. The "senior"
tech may have actually removed refrigerant that first guy added. Did he let
the refrigerant out into the atmosphere, or did he put it into a container
when he "bled some of the gas from the system"?http://www.epa.gov/ozone/title6/608/subrecsm.html
If you still have problems, ask friends and neighbors for recommendations
and then call someone else. The new company should check to see if the
system is installed to Trane specs, like properly sized refrigerant lines,
proper duct work, proper refrigerant charge, etc.

"gary64" <> wrote in message
news:...
> Thanks for the responses:
>
> Bubba, this unit was installed in Aug 2002 - complete with variable
> speed air handler, etc etc. Its not 19 seer though. I'm not very
> knowledgeable about seer ratings but aren't they only about cooling?
> We use our air conditioning maybe 5 to 10 days a year. That's one of
> the reasons we live here (Pacific Northwest).
>
> I apolgize, I miss-stated the model number in my original post. Its a
> 2.5 ton Trane XL14i. We also have a XL18. Both have digital
> thermostats. The smaller compressor failed in the XL18 after about 4
> years. I won't likely buy another Trane.
>
> My wife was in the process of composing a letter to the President of
> Trane when the local installation/service company called wanting to
> postpone the install of the new compressor - sick child at home. My
> wife let him know that she was writing to Trane and, in the process
> said she'd also send it to The Home Depot - the dealer works with Home
> Depot and has a space in the local store to sell Trane. That got his
> attention! He sent out his "senior" tech.
>
> This tech was obviously much more knowledgeable than the first. He
> went throught the entire system - starting with the indoor unit (in the
> attic, 60 ft of pipe from it to the outdoor unit). When he looked at
> the outdoor unit, he said it was 2.5 ton, the fan speed on the air
> handler was set for 2 ton. Next he hooked up his gauges, clipped on
> temperature sensors, and fired up the outdoor unit. Motor current was
> 7.5 amps and it seemed to be working OK. After 15-20 minutes, he said
> the pressure was higher than he'd like (over 400 psi) so he shut it
> down, went upstairs and changed the dip switch settings on the air
> handler. Started the test again, pressure still rose to over 400 psi,
> then he bled some of the gas from the system. Finally, the pressure
> stayed under 400 (I don't recall reading). He said it really needs to
> be set under air conditioning conditions.
>
> Told me to watch it and call them if it failed again. There was really
> no need to tell me that <g>.
>
> So far, its still working (6 hours later).
>
> We'll see.
>

>
> You might want to follow through with the letter to Trane. This dealer
> obviously doesn't deserve anything less than some personal attention
> from them.
>
Trane won't give a hoot about this, all they care about is keeping the
plants open. Proof of this is the very real fact they started letting lumber
yards sell their equipment! If this dealer sells equipment they wont do a
thing about it.

Also, remember in the late 80's, early 0's when GE was no more? In one city
near Cleveland there were 3, yes THREE Trane dealers at one intersection,
the other corner was vacant!!! This was near Marks old store that he use to
work at~ So, Trane could care less about this dealer, they only want to
keep their plants in operation and will do it no matter what.

Its sad, but in my opinion they (the old GE) actually tuned the industry in
for heat pumps back in the 70's and 80's. Then they didn't care any more.
Lennox and others are training their dealers far superior than American
Standard or Trane does. Its all about numbers.

Guest

"Geoman^^" <Geo2> wrote:
>
>>
>> You might want to follow through with the letter to Trane. This dealer
>> obviously doesn't deserve anything less than some personal attention
>> from them.
>>
>Trane won't give a hoot about this, all they care about is keeping the
>plants open. Proof of this is the very real fact they started letting lumber
>yards sell their equipment! If this dealer sells equipment they wont do a
>thing about it.

Rich, Its painfully obvious you know absolutely zilch about the Home
Depot/Trane TCS program. Suggest first you learn the facts. Granted,
certainly there are Trane Comfort Specialist Dealers who should not be
in the program.

Where were you when HD purchased Apex Supply in Atlanta? At the time,
apex was one of the largest Trane distributors on the east coast.

On 2 Feb 2006 11:34:42 -0800, "RSESFSC" <> wrote:
>PLEASE FORWARD YOUR INFORMATION TO ME VIA E-MAIL AND I WILL HAVE THE
>APPROPRIATE FIELD SERVICE REPRESENTATIVE FROM YOUR AREA CONTACT YOU.
>
>THE 14 SEER UNIT THAT YOU ARE DISCUSSING IS A VERY RELIABLE UNIT AND
>UTILIZES A CLIMATUFF/DURATION SCROLL COMPRESSOR.
>
>OVER 50% OF COMPRESSORS RETURNED FOR AUTOPSY ARE MISDIAGNOSED.

Yeah right. You are going to try and correct a problem when you cant
even figure out how to turn your caps lock key OFF.
Bubba

"gary64" <> wrote in message
news:...
> Thanks for the responses:
>
> Bubba, this unit was installed in Aug 2002 - complete with variable
> speed air handler, etc etc. Its not 19 seer though. I'm not very
> knowledgeable about seer ratings but aren't they only about cooling?
> We use our air conditioning maybe 5 to 10 days a year. That's one of
> the reasons we live here (Pacific Northwest).
>
> I apolgize, I miss-stated the model number in my original post. Its a
> 2.5 ton Trane XL14i. We also have a XL18. Both have digital
> thermostats. The smaller compressor failed in the XL18 after about 4
> years. I won't likely buy another Trane.
>
> My wife was in the process of composing a letter to the President of
> Trane when the local installation/service company called wanting to
> postpone the install of the new compressor - sick child at home. My
> wife let him know that she was writing to Trane and, in the process
> said she'd also send it to The Home Depot - the dealer works with Home
> Depot and has a space in the local store to sell Trane. That got his
> attention! He sent out his "senior" tech.
>
> This tech was obviously much more knowledgeable than the first. He
> went throught the entire system - starting with the indoor unit (in the
> attic, 60 ft of pipe from it to the outdoor unit). When he looked at
> the outdoor unit, he said it was 2.5 ton, the fan speed on the air
> handler was set for 2 ton. Next he hooked up his gauges, clipped on
> temperature sensors, and fired up the outdoor unit. Motor current was
> 7.5 amps and it seemed to be working OK. After 15-20 minutes, he said
> the pressure was higher than he'd like (over 400 psi) so he shut it
> down, went upstairs and changed the dip switch settings on the air
> handler. Started the test again, pressure still rose to over 400 psi,
> then he bled some of the gas from the system. Finally, the pressure
> stayed under 400 (I don't recall reading). He said it really needs to
> be set under air conditioning conditions.
>

I have one of those, and could fax you the charging charts if you've like
lost yours...but pretty sure they're also pasted inside one a the panels.

You can correctly charge it under either cooling or heat mode, either way no
prob....

IF the compressor will reliably start and pump up to 400 psi, then the
compressor likely in perfectly good condition, FWIW.

Sounds like maybe a stuck piston in the AHU to me...not enough info to tell
for sure--nobody can see it from here...let alone even feel the pipes to
tell where your heat is getting hung up at.

Suggest get it running, and isolate the RV electrics.......then jumper so as
to toggle from heat to cool mode several times with the compressor
running--a good possibility that'll clear it up at least temporaily.

All bets are off if the charge isnt currently reasonably correct though.

On Thu, 2 Feb 2006 01:59:11 -0800, "Jim McLaughlin" <jim.mclaughlin>
wrote:
>Damn right this is the proper place for the OP to ask quesions.
>
>Paul and his band of imbeciles should be ignored at all times and kill
>filed by everyone using this group.
>
>Imroves the signal to noise ratio remarkably well.
>
>And paul -- rant and rave in your pathetic existence -- you are killfiled
>in all your various combinations of addresses, so I'll never have to see
>your foolishness.
>
>How does it feel to know that you are a futile non entity?

Are you a newbie, or what?
If you've filtered his posts, then why do you ask him a question?
How are you going to read his reply?

You might as well go ahead and filter me too, while you're at it,
because I'm just as big of an asshoole as is Paul.

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