My least favorite story about Mike was when he was in a fraternity in college. They were having a keg party and when the dean came to the door, the person who answered the door took credit for the alcohol thus sparing the fraternity punishment. But when Mike when answered the door, he led the dean straight to the keg. Wonder if he had plans to treat Trump like that?

Quote

During one rowdy bash, the brothers found out a dean was coming to the house and tried to hide evidence of their illicit activities, according to the article.

The future vice president greeted the dean at the door and proceeded to direct him straight to the kegs, telling the official they belonged to Phi Gamma Delta, his former brother said.

This was a major departure from the fraternity’s usual practice: Whoever answered the door took the blame for the booze so the whole house wasn’t formally disciplined, according to Murphy. But after Pence allegedly snitched, the entire fraternity was handed a harsh punishment.

“They really raked us over the coals. The whole house was locked down,” Murphy told the magazine.

But when Mike when answered the door, he led the dean straight to the keg. Wonder if he had plans to treat Trump like that?

Huh. He was totally willing to participate in the party and the drinking, but when they got busted, he wanted to be sure that everyone took the hit together, contrary to long-standing "understood rules" of the fraternity.

So he had no issue with committing the "crime", he just wasn't willing to take the fall by himself. While I understand the thinking (I don't agree with it, but I can see how it works), the unwillingness to take one for the team says some very ugly things about his real word behavior - he thinks he is being directed by Jesus His-Own-Self.

Quote

The only soul Mike is interested in saving is his own.

Given that it sounds as though he believes he and Jesus have personal chats, I don't think he is worried about the state of his soul. I'm concerned about the state of his mental stability, but that's a different issue.

Logged

"Tell people that there's an invisible man in the sky that created the entire universe and the majority believe you. Tell them the paint is wet, and they have to touch it to be sure." ~George Carlin

I've always had a problem with that philosophy but that is a different conversation. My question is this; If Pence was unwilling to take one for the team or follow understood fraternal protocol, why was he the one who answered the door?

Logged

I just do what I always do, what I have always done. I am me. Take it or leave it.

I've always had a problem with that philosophy but that is a different conversation.

It's certainly not a thing I think should be deployed at random - but when it IS part of an understood social structure, I think it says something worth noting about the person who violated the boundaries. We're not talking about covering up harm to other people, we're talking about (possibly underage) drinking at a fraternity.

Quote

My question is this; If Pence was unwilling to take one for the team or follow understood fraternal protocol, why was he the one who answered the door?

Because Jesus told him to.

j/k, I wondered the same thing.

Edited to add: Maybe it was his turn? If so, that makes what he did even more "wtf dude, really?". Now I wonder if he helped hide the keg, he certainly knew where it was hidden.

« Last Edit: February 14, 2018, 12:20:43 PM by Jag »

Logged

"Tell people that there's an invisible man in the sky that created the entire universe and the majority believe you. Tell them the paint is wet, and they have to touch it to be sure." ~George Carlin

pretty typical. Pence's chrsitianity (and most versions of it) are very selfish at their core.

I know. I'm dealing with someone who has a wife that has gotten a hip replacement. Everything leading up to, and during, the procedure was discussed via email. Probably 3-4 emails a day about how God is working this miracle on her hip. I emailed him back saying "I hope it goes well - we're lucky we have the surgery advancements of today that we didn't have 100 years ago." Just went over his head basically, or he didn't want to hear it. More emails came asking for prayers from his congregation. Everyone would reply all, and there were over 100 people on the email listing.

Then an email comes in titled "Setback." She had fallen from walking after surgery, and he asked everyone to pray that God would ensure the stitching was ok. Now she's home resting comfortably and it's a miracle, etc. God is deeply concerned about a woman in her mid-50's hip replacement, but 9 million kids under the age of 5 die every year, millions die of starvation, etc. It's the height of arrogance. I remember when Harris debated Craig he talked about this and had a few comments like "Just when we thought Mom was about to lose her house, a new banker came in and gave her a new rate, praise God" or "But God loves me, don't you know? He cured me of my eczema." I think we're all just sick of hearing it.

pretty typical. Pence's chrsitianity (and most versions of it) are very selfish at their core.

I know. I'm dealing with someone who has a wife that has gotten a hip replacement. Everything leading up to, and during, the procedure was discussed via email. Probably 3-4 emails a day about how God is working this miracle on her hip. I emailed him back saying "I hope it goes well - we're lucky we have the surgery advancements of today that we didn't have 100 years ago." Just went over his head basically, or he didn't want to hear it. More emails came asking for prayers from his congregation. Everyone would reply all, and there were over 100 people on the email listing.

Then an email comes in titled "Setback." She had fallen from walking after surgery, and he asked everyone to pray that God would ensure the stitching was ok. Now she's home resting comfortably and it's a miracle, etc. God is deeply concerned about a woman in her mid-50's hip replacement, but 9 million kids under the age of 5 die every year, millions die of starvation, etc. It's the height of arrogance. I remember when Harris debated Craig he talked about this and had a few comments like "Just when we thought Mom was about to lose her house, a new banker came in and gave her a new rate, praise God" or "But God loves me, don't you know? He cured me of my eczema." I think we're all just sick of hearing it.

Yup, god is always the cure never the cause.

Logged

Mankind is not likely to salvage civilization unless he can evolve a system of good and evil which is independent of heaven and hell.

George Orwell

When you believe in things you don't understandThen you sufferSuperstition ain't the way

But when Mike when answered the door, he led the dean straight to the keg. Wonder if he had plans to treat Trump like that?

Huh. He was totally willing to participate in the party and the drinking, but when they got busted, he wanted to be sure that everyone took the hit together, contrary to long-standing "understood rules" of the fraternity.

So he had no issue with committing the "crime", he just wasn't willing to take the fall by himself. While I understand the thinking (I don't agree with it, but I can see how it works), the unwillingness to take one for the team says some very ugly things about his real word behavior - he thinks he is being directed by Jesus His-Own-Self.

Quote

The only soul Mike is interested in saving is his own.

Given that it sounds as though he believes he and Jesus have personal chats, I don't think he is worried about the state of his soul. I'm concerned about the state of his mental stability, but that's a different issue.

These follow up posts got me to thinking; Would Pence betray Jesus if the situation warranted?

Logged

Mankind is not likely to salvage civilization unless he can evolve a system of good and evil which is independent of heaven and hell.

George Orwell

When you believe in things you don't understandThen you sufferSuperstition ain't the way

I'm definitely not a big fan of Pence. Republican's should have to conclusively prove when a "being" has rights as a U.S. Citizen and self determining being. The second a sperm hits an egg, that's not a U.S. Citizen in my book.

Of course, they can't do that.

I wonder though... am I seriously the only one who has more dismay at Democrats and Liberals over this last election than Republicans?

I'm horrified at the magical thinking of the extreme left that PUSHED swing states to vote for Trump. All of the objections that Bill Maher raised about liberals shutting down debate, or shouting down anyone they don't agree with, and all of the objections that Sam Harris raised about not being able to criticize Islam in the same way that we're totally free to criticize Christianity (among the left)... I'm feeling those guys.

Social programs designed to help the poor end up being so botched by the time they come through Congress it just cripples anyone earning at the mid level, so you had all these middle class families in my own neighborhood skipping vacations or not able to replace vehicles because of health-care bills after the ACA passed.

This state, this neighborhood, is NOT typically a Republican state. Most people I know that voted for Trump didn't want to vote for him, but felt driven to... they're not proud of it (and it makes me sick too that anyone could vote for the guy).

I just feel sick that the next generation of liberals is so "victim-minded" so "need-a-safe-space" so "idealistic but not logical" so "quick to label anyone who disagrees as hate speech"... it's driving normal, intelligent voters to do something so hideous as to vote in Trump.

Magical thinking, shutting down honest discussions, impractical idealism... those should be the domain of the Right, shouldn't they?

Hillary was relatively centrist, but by showing the most extreme social media movements on the left, and students shutting down free speech, etc... the Right is able to take the worst examples on the Left and say, "This is what they're all about." And the backlash results in the least qualified president in the history of the country.

Logged

You can't spell BELIEVE without LIE... and a few other letters. B and E and V and I think E.

I'm horrified at the magical thinking of the extreme left that PUSHED swing states to vote for Trump. All of the objections that Bill Maher raised about liberals shutting down debate, or shouting down anyone they don't agree with, and all of the objections that Sam Harris raised about not being able to criticize Islam in the same way that we're totally free to criticize Christianity (among the left)... I'm feeling those guys.

Fair points, and I remember when he had Harris and Ben Affleck on, and Affleck was defending Islam as a peaceful religion. Hollywood didn't help at all in this case. Neither did Debbie Wasserman Schultz. I think that may have played some outcome in the election but who knows? So many people that voted for Sanders were so dismayed that the DNC chairman was in the tank for Hillary that maybe they just decided not to show up and vote. So I put Schultz in that category of shouting down anyone not in agreement - you vote for Hillary and that's the only option. We're not all free to criticize Christianity - I think comedians like Maher can do it because no one is going to have the guts to interrupt a show like that, particularly when a lot of people are there to support him. But if you criticize Christianity to a Christian friend, there's hell to pay and they will get extremely hurt.

Quote

Social programs designed to help the poor end up being so botched by the time they come through Congress it just cripples anyone earning at the mid level, so you had all these middle class families in my own neighborhood skipping vacations or not able to replace vehicles because of health-care bills after the ACA passed.

That's definitely interesting and something I don't think about, having health care as a Government employee that's at a nice rate. What kind of premium rises were these people facing?

Quote

Hillary was relatively centrist, but by showing the most extreme social media movements on the left, and students shutting down free speech, etc... the Right is able to take the worst examples on the Left and say, "This is what they're all about." And the backlash results in the least qualified president in the history of the country.

Maybe Hillary was just a flawed candidate, and Trump came in at the right time. Remember how he was winning states in the primaries because there were so many candidates that you didn't need a big percentage of the vote to win? Then you had Jeb Bush, who would have been a much more formidable candidate had his brother not already been president. Ted Cruz? Chris Christie? Just a lot of uninspiring candidates (the one that surprised me the most in flopping was John Kasich).

Hillary also had lost the nomination in 2008 and as I mentioned earlier, she darn well could have lost this one to Sanders, who won a bunch of states. I thought he might do the same thing that Obama did - win a bunch of small states and win the nomination that way. If I'm remembering right, Hillary won a lot of the big states in 2008 but just got annihilated in the smaller states like Colorado, Maryland etc and that made the difference. David Axelrod got a ton of credit for that strategy. Did Hillary also have the problem of Jeb, in that another Clinton was already in office, and was polarizing? (albeit very popular when he left office).

Still though, you're right - how the heck could this many people vote for Trump? Let's hope the Dems have a decent candidate in 2020.

I'm horrified at the magical thinking of the extreme left that PUSHED swing states to vote for Trump.

That sounds like bullshit to me. I do not believe the left pushed anyone right. I believe latent racism, panic over a black president and nonstop right wing lies and propaganda pushed people to vote for trump. Most analyses I’ve read support that.

All of the objections that Bill Maher raised about liberals shutting down debate, or shouting down anyone they don't agree with,

That again sounds like a right wing fabrication. What debate was shut down? Do you mean when students didn’t want Ann Coulter or neonazi leaders getting paid to insult them on their own campuses? That’s not honest debate. And are the student protests over those dipshits speaking on their campuses not also free speech?

I’ve had a hard time putting my finger on it, but I read this today and he articulated it well:

From my point of view, debate is something you engage in with a shared set of assumptions about the rules, and that includes what passes for a fact and what constitutes evidence. To be productive, there must be good faith from both parties, and that’s what broke down during the Reagan years. There’s really no point in debating Milo Yiannopoulos or Ann Coulter or Donald Trump because they don’t operate by these rules and they define bad faith. What the college students of today have internalized is that the conservative movement isn’t offering guest speakers on their campuses for the purpose of having a debate. They’re there to insult and create divisions. They’re there to question the entire intellectual process and the values that underpin academic discovery.

and all of the objections that Sam Harris raised about not being able to criticize Islam in the same way that we're totally free to criticize Christianity (among the left)...

See above. I don’t buy harris’ argument. You’re free to criticize Islam. You’re not free to be a bigoted asshole about it. Well, I mean, you are free to be a bigoted asshole, but people are going to say you’re being a bigoted asshole. They’re free to do that.

Social programs designed to help the poor end up being so botched by the time they come through Congress...

? Congress isn’t just democrats. A lot of vandalism is done intentionally by repubs. And laws aren’t always perfect the first time around. By time problems with the ACA were discovered, dems had already lost the house and Republicans were adamant against even trying to fix it. So, blaming the dems for this is not rational.

That sounds like bullshit to me. I do not believe the left pushed anyone right. I believe latent racism, panic over a black president and nonstop right wing lies and propaganda pushed people to vote for trump. Most analyses I’ve read support that.

Trump didn't win because the Religious Right supported him, they were always going to support any Republican over Hillary. He won because states like Pennsylvania went Trump. The "rust belt" states that swung red.

I live in a suburban neighborhood in a rust belt state. While I am not a pollster, I can only tell you that I've repeatedly heard from neighbors, friends, family, and a few folks who run local small businesses that many of them voted for Trump with a bad taste in their mouth. They were not racists. They did not vote for Trump because they were scared.

The reasons that I was told, because I asked... because I'm an atheist independent voter who is not at all in favor of the religious right being in power, so I asked because I wanted to better understand why they'd vote for a former reality TV host and failed businessman. Pennsylvania went MASSIVELY to Obama both terms, and many of these people voted for Obama.

Again, consider this the word from the street, so I understand it is biased to my area... but areas LIKE THIS are what swung the swing states to Trump.

- Two of my friends pointed out that their healthcare costs had more than tripled under Obama. We might agree that it's not his fault, or was going that way, or it's anecdotal, but would you agree that passing something called "The Affordable Care Act" works best if it coincides with healthcare becoming more affordable to the middle class too?

- I saw with my own eyes this happen with the healthcare at my own company. My company was putting fines on employees who insured their spouses (to discourage them from taking coverage with us if they could take it at their job). I personally co-paid $200 for a ONE OUNCE prescription for eye drops. (nothing cutting edge, just an antibiotic/anti-inflammatory drop). My buddy's kids have a few dangerous allergies and the cost of their rescue meds went through the roof.

- What I think happened is every drug company, every insurance company, every corporation providing insurance, every hospital sat down in board meetings after Obamacare was passed and said, "How do we insure that none of the cost of providing this free coverage to low income citizens is passed on to us? How do we pass 100% of this cost to the people who can't dodge it?"

- I see a chiropractor due to a back injury. He was going on and on about the problems of the ACA, and he stopped providing on the job insurance coverage after it was passed, letting his employees get it on their own at a higher cost. Not a rich guy, not an extremist... I know Chiropractic is questionable but it does help to recover from whiplash.

I'll cover a few other points below, lined up with your points. But the above feedback that I got above came from middle aged women and men, normal, intelligent people who voted for Obama... these weren't pro-lifers or evangelists.

Myself, I'm an atheist who voted for Obama, so why would I offer this criticism if I wasn't genuinely concerned about it.

All of the objections that Bill Maher raised about liberals shutting down debate, or shouting down anyone they don't agree with,

That again sounds like a right wing fabrication. What debate was shut down? Do you mean when students didn’t want Ann Coulter or neonazi leaders getting paid to insult them on their own campuses? That’s not honest debate. And are the student protests over those dipshits speaking on their campuses not also free speech?

I’ve had a hard time putting my finger on it, but I read this today and he articulated it well:

From my point of view, debate is something you engage in with a shared set of assumptions about the rules, and that includes what passes for a fact and what constitutes evidence. To be productive, there must be good faith from both parties, and that’s what broke down during the Reagan years. There’s really no point in debating Milo Yiannopoulos or Ann Coulter or Donald Trump because they don’t operate by these rules and they define bad faith. What the college students of today have internalized is that the conservative movement isn’t offering guest speakers on their campuses for the purpose of having a debate. They’re there to insult and create divisions. They’re there to question the entire intellectual process and the values that underpin academic discovery.

By that standard, it's pointless for Matt Dillahunty to debate anyone that he does. You debate calmly because you want to let your opponent expose their ignorance to the audience. Anne Coulter, though she might be hideous in many ways, is NOT Adolf Hitler. Myself, I'd happily debate her. Bill Nye helped enlighten people by debating Ken Hamm. Comparing people to Nazi's or Hitler is part of the problem.

Here are examples of liberals like Seth McFarlane or Bill Maher talking about this or making fun of it:

and all of the objections that Sam Harris raised about not being able to criticize Islam in the same way that we're totally free to criticize Christianity (among the left)...

See above. I don’t buy harris’ argument. You’re free to criticize Islam. You’re not free to be a bigoted asshole about it. Well, I mean, you are free to be a bigoted asshole, but people are going to say you’re being a bigoted asshole. They’re free to do that.

Listen to this clip, and tell me if Sam Harris is being a bigoted asshole? I don't think he's being bigoted or an asshole. But Ben Affleck calls him out as if Sam Harris is a Nazi or a bigoted asshole.

Ben's calling Sam a racist... if you listen to what Bill and Sam are saying, they're not being racist... but Ben's reaction is the reaction of many liberals if you ever disagree with them on anything.

And I believe that if Sam was ripping Christianity in the exact same way that he was ripping Islam, Ben wouldn't have said anything. This is a hypocritical double standard held by many social justice warriors.

Do you watch romantic comedies? My wife loves them, and we watch them together. Sometime, count the number of romantic comedies where a woman is celebrated for punching a guy in the face, bloodying his nose, whatever... now imagine the situation reversed? It's horrifying right? I take some martial art classes and trust me, some of the ladies in that class could kick my ass or yours.

You know how Christians have double standards when it comes to taking criticism, or what they expect? So do many on the left.

Most followers of Islam are... for sake of comparison, more like casual Catholics... they're not extremists. But what is ACTUALLY WRITTEN and TAUGHT in the Quran is just as bad as what is taught in the Bible. The only reason Islamic folks that are reasonable is the same as the reason many Christians are reasonable... they don't take the teachings too literally.

My view: When deciding if something is right or wrong, you should be able to decide without knowing the gender or race or sexual preference of the acting parties before deciding if it's right or wrong. If something is sexism, it's sexism either way. If something is racism, it's racism either way. If something is abuse, it's abuse either way.

Social programs designed to help the poor end up being so botched by the time they come through Congress...

? Congress isn’t just democrats. A lot of vandalism is done intentionally by repubs. And laws aren’t always perfect the first time around. By time problems with the ACA were discovered, dems had already lost the house and Republicans were adamant against even trying to fix it. So, blaming the dems for this is not rational.

I know... this was a big deal, and it needed to be passed through when the majority of Congress and the majority of Americans wanted it, so that it could be done correctly. I agree with you that Obama had good intentions, but the results were horrible. Are the republicans, or greedy corporations responsible for that, at least in part? Abso-fucking-lutlely...

But isn't it the job of highly intelligent Democrats to realize that this is going to happen, and try to ensure that the side effect of the social program doesn't have such a massive negative impact or blowback?

I knew this would happen when Obama stuck the bill through... I was like, "Shit... this is going to go poorly." Obama is smarter than me, why didn't he know it?

I just feel sick that the next generation of liberals is so "victim-minded" so "need-a-safe-space" so "idealistic but not logical"

That’s worse than fascists, corporatists, billionaires, white supremacists and the general dismantling of the entire federal government?

I've absolutely brought the points up that 100% of the cost of social programs are passed along by corporatists and billionaires to the middle class. I hate it. My expectations for Republicans and rich-assholes are low... they meet those expectations. My expectations for Democrats are higher. Shouldn't they be?

I believe that the Alt-Right and Social Justice Warriors only succeed in creating more Alt-Right and more SJWs. They're extremists with nothing good to offer on either side. Maybe with good intentions, but completely unwilling to consider criticism.

The Alt-Right actually HURTS the Republican cause in the long term... the louder they get, the more Trump would cater to them, the more likely swing states swing back to Democrat.

I can't think of a woman who couldn't kick Aziz Ansari's ass if she didn't want his advances and wanted out of a room with him. She had a bad date with him, and jumped on the #MeToo movement, where all it takes is accusations to destroy a guy's career.

Al Frankin?

Seriously? You can't tell Al Frankin to fuck off if you're not interested? I have a hard time understanding this... when I was in college, I waited tables. I was a fairly good looking guy. My female boss used to flirt with me, once she slapped my ass. I made it clear that I wasn't interested or comfortable with it, without being an asshole, and that was the end of it.

When I picture Al Frankin, it's hard for me to imagine him not respecting, "Dude, I'm not interested. Do you respect women or not? I'm not interested in you sexually."

Stuff like this gives actual abusers like TRUMP ammunition to make light of ACTUAL VICTIMS.

Quote

What does Black Lives Matter want?Not sure? How about this. Can you cite a moment in which a BLM leader passionately and eloquently denounced the recent shooting deaths of eight police officers in Dallas and Baton Rouge? Can you name one or two leaders from the movement?Chances are the answers to those questions fall all over the place. Four years after its founding, BLM is still a movement without a clear meaning for many Americans. Some see it has a hate group; others as cutting-edge activism and yet others as just a step above a mob.

Look... are you still reading this far?

Do you want to understand where I'm coming from? Here's a liberal, black-leader, black-activist, who has literally de-converted hundreds of KKK members simply by talking to them. Do you know who Daryl Davis is?

Members of BLM are against this guy... they're angry that he has discussions or meals with the enemy, but what he's doing is working. It's not pushing people to take sides, it's bringing the other side over to his side of the fence by listening to their crazy bullshit for a bit, and then offering up thoughtful responses.

This guy converts racists and bigots like Matt Dillahunty converts religious delusional people. Not everyone, but enough that it wins the war.

If we can't listen to people we don't like, and debate them, and show the audience the problem with their positions... if that's not worth doing, then things happen like losing many swing states to an orange skinned moron.

Picture women like Anne Coulter, with her same values, hijacking the #MeToo movement to damage the careers of Democrats. Impossible?

I can easily picture them taking advantage of a lower bar being required for proof before someone's career is ruined.

YRM, is it the insurance companies you have an issue with or your employer or Obama? If the health companies some how got together to screw you, then why blame anyone but them?

You claim that people voted for Trump with a "bad taste" in their mouths. But you don't say why they voted for Trump. IF they weren't scared, if they aren't racists, then why? You seem to want to blame liberals, but what did those liberals supposedly do, to somehow force these people who you claim didn't want to vote for Trump, to vote for him? Expensive meds? Daring to question the status quo? again, blaming the ACA doesn't work since it didn't make anyone try to screw you over; they chose to do that. The chiropractor chose to screw his employees about some "problems" with the ACA which you don't specify. And if it was questioning the status quo, then anyone who votes for a sexual abuser, a liar, a cheat, etc, has some big problems if that's what makes them vote for such a person.

Logged

"There is no use in arguing with a man who can multiply anything by the square root of minus 1" - Pirates of Venus, ERB

I think it was perfectly played by the scared insurance companies ( that they would be obsolete) and the American public (conservatives that stood to lose, but hate all things liberal) fell for the insurance company ruse, and so they (insurance companies) live on, and prices rise

YRM, is it the insurance companies you have an issue with or your employer or Obama? If the health companies some how got together to screw you, then why blame anyone but them?

You claim that people voted for Trump with a "bad taste" in their mouths. But you don't say why they voted for Trump. IF they weren't scared, if they aren't racists, then why? You seem to want to blame liberals, but what did those liberals supposedly do, to somehow force these people who you claim didn't want to vote for Trump, to vote for him? Expensive meds? Daring to question the status quo? again, blaming the ACA doesn't work since it didn't make anyone try to screw you over; they chose to do that. The chiropractor chose to screw his employees about some "problems" with the ACA which you don't specify. And if it was questioning the status quo, then anyone who votes for a sexual abuser, a liar, a cheat, etc, has some big problems if that's what makes them vote for such a person.

I'm not YR, but IMO it was choosing the wrong candidate, Hillary Clinton. The extreme left saw her as a corporate shrill. It did not help when she called Trump supporters deplorable, called black men predators, and stood by her man after several affairs. That's not feminism. A feminist would dump that arse.

People were easily persuaded she had 44 people assassinated. She did destroy emails relevant to a federal investigation. Crooked Hillary!

Obama let people down. Congress let people down. A vote for Trump was a vote against the status quo.

The sad part is Trump supporters don't understand how Citizens United is a huge part of the problem. They think the problem is big government and socialism and/or communism.

YRM, is it the insurance companies you have an issue with or your employer or Obama? If the health companies some how got together to screw you, then why blame anyone but them?

You claim that people voted for Trump with a "bad taste" in their mouths. But you don't say why they voted for Trump. IF they weren't scared, if they aren't racists, then why? You seem to want to blame liberals, but what did those liberals supposedly do, to somehow force these people who you claim didn't want to vote for Trump, to vote for him? Expensive meds? Daring to question the status quo? again, blaming the ACA doesn't work since it didn't make anyone try to screw you over; they chose to do that. The chiropractor chose to screw his employees about some "problems" with the ACA which you don't specify. And if it was questioning the status quo, then anyone who votes for a sexual abuser, a liar, a cheat, etc, has some big problems if that's what makes them vote for such a person.

The people who voted for Trump are scared, but the ones I know are definitely not racist or sexist.

I do not blame liberals for Trump being a bad candidate or bad president... I blame the delusional, or extremist, among the liberals for pushing swing voters towards Trump.

Consider a football game where two teams are playing. One team has better players, smarter players, a better coach, better ideas... and the other team hasn't won in years. The game comes, the favored team spends the pre-game protesting the anthem, arguing about player salary, getting into social media wars with the underdog team... there's so much noise the fans don't know what to make of it. The game comes. The better team has some poor calls go against it, but generally blows a game that they should win because they focused on the wrong things ahead of time and got some bad breaks.

As a fan, I could blame the refs. I could blame the other team. Or I could call my favorite team out on why they lost. I doesn't mean I hate that team... it doesn't mean I wanted them to lose.

As far as this part:

Quote

If the health companies some how got together to screw you, then why blame anyone but them?

Because instead of fixing what's wrong with Healthcare, the ACA leaves all the problems, but insists that free care be provided to those who can't pay for it... so then, 100% of the cost of that care is folded up into less drug research, fewer hospitals, higher costs for the middle class, worse coverage... My wife was given a knee brace after an MRI in the past year. Nobody told her the cost, and couldn't even when she asked. She was later billed $400 for the knee brace. A similar knee brace was available on Amazon for $45.

It's not entirely that companies are ripping off consumers... in some ways they are just trying to figure out how to, say, cover free $30,000 drug rehab for a person who hasn't worked and can't pay for it, so they pass the cost on in every other way.

Here's the problem with healthcare as I understand it.

Insurance companies were sending large groups of people to Hospitals and because of that, they tried to negotiate lower prices for themselves, a bulk discount. Hospitals were already charging reasonable prices at the time, so in order to win over insurance companies, they raised prices so that they could offer discounts. This then put anyone not on a company plan at a severe disadvantage. Combine that with frivolous lawsuits, increasing insurance cost against that, increasing regulations on research time and cost... coupled with peoples idea that none of us want to die, and frivolous use of healthcare services because they were "free" with good healthcare... People were overprescribed antibiotics, on and on. All of the problems went unchecked for decades under both Democrat and Republican presidents.

It created a perfect storm for price gouging. Obamacare fed dramatically into the storm for price gouging. Consider instead, if there was some law that prevented certain % of markup over cost? What if a drug that cost $10 to make couldn't be sold for $1,000? What if, instead of providing free healthcare to a small % of people, government money was funneled into speeding and lowering the cost of research, so that drugs could be provided more affordably? What if health care monopolies were broken up? What if there was a limit on the amount a non-profit could spend on advertising?

Here... locally, the local healthcare monopoly spends millions and millions and millions running commercials, literally every 15 minutes to "win people over" to their healthcare plan. They ran a fcking ad on the super-bowl.

Do I blame them for this? Sure.

But do I blame the government for "solving the wrong problem" or "making it far worse" with careless execution of new laws? Yes. Why wouldn't I? If I am not a politician, but I can recognize why some of this went so poorly, why couldn't people get this right whose full time job it is to recognize it?

One of the best things Democratic presidents did in the past decade was ALLOWING GAS PRICES TO GO UP... this caused changes in awareness and behavior. Less people drive gas guzzling SUVs now, car manufacturers have buyers that are interested in cars with the best MPG. So there may be some good that eventually comes out of broken healthcare costs but consumers need smart options. How do I buy... "The hybrid car version of Healthcare". How does the government encourage that?

Quote

It did not help when she called Trump supporters deplorable, called black men predators, and stood by her man after several affairs. That's not feminism. A feminist would dump that arse.

You hit on another key point, and that's the hypocrisy of many social justice warriors. At the last 3 companies I've worked for, in all 3 cases, I've seen a white man lose his job over allegations that were unproven or not tied to any unwelcome harassment. Companies are afraid of lawsuits or bad press, so any accusation is met with job loss, proven or not.

Case 1 - A girl, who dressed completely inappropriately for work, was told by co-workers that our nerdy boss (think an old Leonard from Big Bang Theory), made a comment about how she was dressing. This young woman never heard him say this. Many of us in the group never heard this guy make any inappropriate comments (not at lunches or in privacy or on trips, never, the guy was a square). Outraged at the idea that someone might have called her on plaid mini-skirts that barely covered her upper thighs or a V neck that might as well have been a giant neon arrow... she reported the manager to HR. I had no personal problems with this girl, but the people who told her about these 'comments' wanted the manager's job for themselves. Because the company couldn't risk lawsuit, the manager was transferred to a new position with no direct reports, then after time passed, he was laid off for "other reasons". It didn't matter that several of us went to HR and told them that the accusations seemed highly out of character for this guy... the accuser believed that her accusations were true, but she never actually heard these supposed comments directly. Result, the guy lost his job. Fortunately his wife knew him very well and didn't buy into the drama for a second... but let's be clear, the comment that he was accused of making about this woman was 100% true... she absolutely dressed inappropriately for work. If I went to a corporate office in ass-less chaps, I don't see how it'd give me the right to complain about it if someone else noticed. Nobody raised the issue about her dress choices with HR because she was friends with the lady from HR and they went to lunch together.

Case 2 - A manager had two women on his analytics team. The overall VP was a strong personality, she was friends with several of the women in the group. The two analytics staffers were friends, and one had referred the other, but one of them wasn't working out. My manager let one of them go for poor performance, and the other was quietly furious about it (we know this because I heard them talking about it at lunches). Later, she traveled with manager to a trade show. When she came back, she claimed that he made passes at her (never claimed that anything more than that occurred) to HR. It was his word vs her word, but the company couldn't risk him being in charge of the group anymore, so they came to a settlement and let the guy go. I don't know if he was guilty or not, maybe he was... but, again, without any proof or due process, he lost his job. His marriage survived this, but barely.

Case 3 - A manager was dating a woman in another department. This should have been ok. However, she'd previously been in the same group as him before they started dating. One of this guy's underlings was unhappy that a bad review was given, so, the "dating" was reported up to HR. The manager and his s/o both talked to HR, neither was abused or unwilling or had been treated differently, and they hadn't dated during the time they were in the same group. HR told him that everything should be fine, then fired him two weeks later. She kept her job.

This stuff all occurred before the #MeToo movement. These are just cases that I've personally witnessed. My feeling is that guys who are actually abusers, intimidating, powerful, untouchable, get away with abuses for decades, and companies jump all over these fringe cases to make it appear that they're enacting justice out of fear of running afoul of protesters and lawsuits from the left. Non-alpha guys who aren't actually guilty of anything make great targets.

It's not actual justice that people are after, it's the appearance of justice... and if you're not a minority, it's ok to sacrifice you.

This leads to people on the right being able to write articles like this... and they're NOT LYING...

Why give the right genuine ammunition, why not pursue gender-blind, color-blind, orientation-blind justice for all that focuses on using some common sense and judgment rather than having to be a non-stop witch hunt and everyone trying to gain attention and drama?

One of my co-workers, she's super cool and super talented... she's underpaid. I love working with her, but we were discussing her pay one time and she was pretty pissed about it. I raised a few points with her:

- When you took this job, did you negotiate on the salary they offered you at all? "No."- When you write your self reviews, how do you rate yourself? "Average or below average."- Why do you rate yourself poorly when you're a good worker and everyone loves you? "I dunno, I hate saying nice things about myself."- But you're legitimately good at your job, if you don't fight for your own cause, why would anyone else, please, start... "I guess that makes sense."- Do you think you missed out on any raises or promotions when you took 4 years off for having kids? "Probably"- Have you ever asked for a raise or a promotion? "No."

So was she underpaid because she's female? Or was she underpaid because of her actions? That very year, I helped her write her review, and gave her points to bring up with our manager. She got the largest raise in the group... 8%. I also privately talked to the guy and said, "If there's not enough raise to go around, give mine to her... I'm happy with what I make and I negotiated a good deal when I came in."

But should we pass laws that now penalize people who assertively fought for the salary they make?

My problem with socialism is that it sort of pulls the rug out from under the need for people to make decisions to take actions to better themselves. I feel like... I'm a feminist. I took personal action to support a co-worker who deserved it, and helped her to become stronger at self-advocacy going forward. You can't fix that problem with legislation. It takes encouraging more behavior like the two of us engaged in.

The point is... most men I know and work with, at corporate environments, have a low grade fear of being unfairly screwed over on unproven accusations. These don't have to be outright lies... it could just be anything... he said, "You look nice today." And she decides that there's some kind of meaning behind that comment? It's potentially a lost job. Guys are terrified of saying the wrong thing.

Some of Hillary's comments fed into this. So when a shit-heel like Trump hides behind "due process" there are plenty of guys in the country saying, "Yeah, it actually would be nice to have due process before a company can just get rid of you over any accusation."

How do liberals fix this? Be interested in actual blind justice instead of constantly trumpeting these causes and protests... when we live in the best time in history, the least sexist, least racist, least bigotted time in history... but complaining is at an all time high, it rubs people the wrong way.

When I listened to people that... I couldn't believe would vote for Trump... honestly I can empathize with their fears and concerns. Of course I pointed out that Trump is the type of guy who actually has abused his fame and power to take advantage of women, that he's a failed businessman who takes advantage of his lowest paid employees. I pointed out that Trump would appoint conservative judges who would potentially harm pro-choice rights. I pointed out that he's a hot-head with command of nukes and a super-power military. Of course I point out the problems, and I think many of them regret voting for Trump.

However, had their concerns been heard in the first place, before the election... maybe Trump wouldn't have won this state. They felt pushed out of the Democratic Tent because they're not part of the trans-gender fringe.

These are folks who don't care if someone gets a sex change, or wants to wear a dress and makeup... they just don't want frivolous lawsuits about adding a 3rd restroom, or feeling pressured by political correctness to have to insist that Bruce/Kaitlyn Jenner is such a brave and wonderful person, in spite of being a drunk driver and having many personality flaws regardless of their personal lifestyle. Why do we have to pretend that anyone who is a minority can't possibly also be a bad person? South Park, and their liberal creators, made fun of this... just like years prior, The Simpsons made fun of extremist feminism when Homer was crucified publicly for taking a gummy bear off the baby-sitter's back-side.

None of these shows to point out these fears and problems are coming from the Right. Matt Parker, Trey Stone, Seth McFarlane, Bill Maher, Sam Harris, on and on... these are all liberals pointing out problems on our side of the fence.

I say this stuff because it's an opportunity for individual democrats and liberals to be more open to the fears and concerns of swing voters... if all of us engaged in dialogue that was calm and reasonable and made swing voters felt heard... how many votes do we we really need to insure that a guy like Trump doesn't win again? The rust belt states hadn't swung to a Republican since... what? Reagan?

We should be better than the opposition at trumpeting color-blind justice, making people feel heard, and winning debates (rather than needing to shout them down).

Quote

They think the problem is big government and socialism and/or communism

Consider things like this... my wife had to step out of the workforce to care for a disabled person for years. When she re-entered the work force, she makes a few bucks more than minimum wage. This is unfortunate for us, but at least she's making more than minimum wage.

If the minimum wage goes up to $15 an hour... what happens to her salary? Does anyone honestly think her employer is going to say, "This is a woman who's overcome a tough situation, works hard, and is in a job that isn't a minimum wage type job... we should give her a proportional raise!"

Does anyone think that happens for us if my state raises minimum wage?

All it does for us, if that happens, is cause 16 year old workers to make the same salary as my wife, who has a job that requires extensive people skills and medical knowledge.

She's pursuing options to increase her pay, but the situation where we care for a disabled person is still there (just not to the degree that it was before), so she needs some flexibility in her schedule.

Plenty of hard working people have fought and scraped to get above the poverty line... if you raise minimum wage to their salary, what happens to their income? It is now "the minimal income" that they could earn?

What socialism needs to figure out is how to stop generating the exact opposite of it's stated intent with it's efforts to help the poor and lower-middle class.

What if... a law prevented a certain amount of disparity between the highest paid and lowest paid employee at a company? So that the CEO and all their buddies couldn't hand each other giant bonuses and huge salaries while underpaying everyone else? Then ask questions like... what would this law cause? Would corporate leaders just relocate to another country? What loophole would the rich then exploit to avoid any consequences of this social program.

We'd be better off with a sort of... slow burn... like... we have a progressive tax system, but it stops at, is it $500,000 or a million? Why not add .5% for each half-million a person earns?

Make the increase such that it's hard to avoid, not worth fleeing the country to avoid, but would result in much more taxation for the wealthiest of the wealthy.

Much of the rich in the country are liberals... just about 100% of Hollywood is liberal. Every documentary on HBO or Netflix or anywhere is designed to educate people against conservatism or Trump or whatever... (and I'm not saying they're wrong).

For example, don't sell me on "Free college education"... tell me how offering that won't increase the cost of college for everyone in the middle class, reduce options of which schools to attend, stop price gouging for credits, or increase our tax rates from 25% to 50%

If colleges are already price gouging on credits while raking in billions from College Football... isn't there a better solution to reduce the cost of college credits? Fix the over-billing and waste. Fix the insanity that people over-value degrees over experience or qualifications for a job. Now colleges have to compete for students and their $$$ instead of students falling over themselves to pay way too much money for a grad-student to teach an absentee professor's classes.

Socialism needs to fix the problem of overpricing... certain bullshit...

I could walk onto many top campuses and take free classes just by wandering into giant lecture halls. I could learn everything I need to know and never pay a dime. But the cost of that piece of paper that says I have a degree in something is vastly over inflated.

There are these real problems with delusional thinking that our society runs on... and corporations abuse these delusions... I don't often hear other people talk about "fixing that". (which would then make it far easier for low income people to afford healthcare, drugs, and education)

Anyway, enough ranting... hopefully some of what I've explained rung true to a few people and maybe this conversation results in a few dozen people converted from swing-voters to Democrats in the future. Self-criticism is healthy for any intelligent group.

« Last Edit: March 15, 2018, 11:45:46 AM by YRM_DM »

Logged

You can't spell BELIEVE without LIE... and a few other letters. B and E and V and I think E.

One of the best things Democratic presidents did in the past decade was ALLOWING GAS PRICES TO GO UP... this caused changes in awareness and behavior. Less people drive gas guzzling SUVs now, car manufacturers have buyers that are interested in cars with the best MPG. So there may be some good that eventually comes out of broken healthcare costs but consumers need smart options. How do I buy... "The hybrid car version of Healthcare".

People often lie, specifically to themselves, or just plain don’t understand their motives. For example, Screwtape senior does not think he’s a racist and would probably physically attack you (or me) if you (or I) said as much. He sees racism as interpersonal relations. Do you hate black people? Do you burn crosses in yards? No? Then you cannot be a racist.

Nevertheless, he is a racist. He does not understand that a lot of his favorite policies inherently hurt black people. He doesn’t see that every time he mentioned president Obama, a man he despised like I have never seen him despise anyone, he referred to him as “the black king” or “that black sonofabitch”.

He told me no fewer than four times in a 12 month period, “you know why black people don’t like being called gorillas? Because they really look like them!”

He laments that Howard Cosell got in trouble for saying of a black college running back “that little monkey” And he truly thinks none of this is racist.

Properly constructed polls will sus the racial attitudes out and they have.

Yep. I’ve read dozens of similar articles that let white people off the hook. They all say it was anything but racism. And none of it bears out. I posted an excellent article about trump voters in the “Trump is a moron” thread. It explains their mentality and it’s based on data, not informal conversations with neighbors. You might take a look at it.

- Two of my friends pointed out that their healthcare costs had more than tripled under Obama.

I don’t know your friends or the specifics of their situation, so I cannot speak to it. I do know that a lot of people were buying garbage in the first place. Prior to the ACA, a lot of cheap insurance didn’t actually cover anything. They were frauds. People who were healthy bought it for catastrophic situations because it was cheap. But these policies often did not pay off even then and did not meet broader goals of maintaining health in good times. So their perceived surplus cash was an illusion, particularly if something bad actually did happen.

- I saw with my own eyes this happen with the healthcare at my own company. My company was putting fines on employees who insured their spouses (to discourage them from taking coverage with us if they could take it at their job).

? Fines, you say? Fines. Are you sure they were fines, per se, And not your interpretation of realistic costs? I saw this too. It probably has to do with companies covering employees, but not wanting to take the hit on spouses and kids. I would not call that a fine.

I personally co-paid $200 for a ONE OUNCE prescription for eye drops. (nothing cutting edge, just an antibiotic/anti-inflammatory drop). My buddy's kids have a few dangerous allergies and the cost of their rescue meds went through the roof.

Dude, that’s not democrats or the ACA. That is pure, unadulterated, republican, free market capitalism. Look up that little bastard Martin Shkreli. That explains it in a nutshell.

I agree that the ACA only addressed health insurance and not the drivers of health costs. Nothing will in this country because the way to do it is for the government to step in and set price limits. This is what other, more civilized countries do. But not us. We are capitalists to a flaw.

I’m not going to jump to conclusions about you for using this term. But many people will. Let me help you avoid being unfairly labeled. People who use this term are usually racist or sexist pieces of shit. Men’s rights assholes and the like. Eschew that phrase. It will cause problems for you.

I agree with you that Obama had good intentions, but the results were horrible.

They weren’t horrible. They were fucking great. Something like 20 million people who previously had no health insurance, got it. Health care cost inflation slowed.

Granted, some people were stuck in between, but it was the republicans who were at fault for it not getting fixed. Saying dems are at fault and thus pushed people to vote like rage drunk assholes is not the rational conclusion.

But isn't it the job of highly intelligent Democrats to realize that this is going to happen, and try to ensure that the side effect of the social program doesn't have such a massive negative impact or blowback?

Some things cannot be predicted and can only be discovered through trial and error. Even smart dems are fallible.

How about accusations against liberals who are basically normal guys but just a little weird or dorky or perverted?

So, one questionable accusation out of... how many?... makes the whole pro-women movement “extreme”? I don’t understand. Did you read Salma Hayek’s account of Weinstein’s harassment? Rachel Evan Wood’s? Most of trump’s accusers?

There are a couple of people in my office who called the whole MeToo thing a witch hunt. When a new guy was accused of something they’d wring their hands and ask, “when will the madness end?” Then, they’d read what actually happened and they’d have to agree the bastard du jour really was an asshole after all.

LISTEN TO WHY PEOPLE WHO VOTED FOR TRUMP VOTED FOR HIM. UNDERSTAND WHY. THEN WIN THEM BACK OVER.

No. They will not directly tell you why because they either do not know and are completely deluded or they know it is socially unacceptable to say “because I’m a bigot and an asshole”. And in any case, the answer is not “placate the bigots and rage drunk assholes”. No.

I can’t even. You just dropped like 10 notches. F minus. It’s just cracking your knuckles. There is nothing therapeutic about it.

Do not speak to me of this again.

Oh for fuck sake.

I was injured twice in car accidents that occurred 15 months apart (rear-ended at controlled intersections both times no less). Medical care did nothing to expand my mobility, and aside from drugs, had nothing to offer to manage my very real back and neck pain. The top of my spine, where it connects to the brain stem, was tilted in the wrong direction, and literally tugging on my brain when I moved my head. The headaches were fucking horrible. I went to see a chiropractor, and between the x-rays that clearly show month over month that my spine realigned correctly (while still not perfect it IS much better), and my much improved mobility, I'd go back in heartbeat were I to be injured that way again. While I still get the occasional headache, it's NOTHING compared to what it WAS like. I continued getting spinal adjustments for almost two full years, and I ended up feeling nearly as good as before the accidents. Yoga and core training are helping me regain strength and keep my muscles from getting too tight, which triggers aches and pains.

There are absolutely crazy claims made about chiropractic care, yes, but my first hand experience and the x-rays are proof enough for me that it IS useful in certain cases and to treat certain things. The only alternative I had was to wait long enough for the doctors to be satisfied that it wasn't going to get better and then have surgery on my spine. This was much less invasive, had no recovery time from procedure, and I could get an adjustment on demand if I was in pain until I was healed enough for the pain to mostly disappear.

Now, back to the topic at hand. Next post will get back to the broad topic under discussion.

Logged

"Tell people that there's an invisible man in the sky that created the entire universe and the majority believe you. Tell them the paint is wet, and they have to touch it to be sure." ~George Carlin

I think screwtape and YRDM are both making good points. In my opinion, both have captured part of 'the truth' we're apparently in search of, and of course, there's more truth in the mix.

I'm quite likely to ramble a bit, so please bear with me.

There are '-isms' at play here, I think we all agree on that, at least to a point. Starting with racism, my opinion is often unpopular, but it's well supported by social science: we ALL have at least a trace of racism in us, we're programmed to be that way. It's not the instinct that's the issue, it's what follows. Most people do have a twitch of something or other when they come face to face with something unfamiliar, and that's ok. It's the behavior that makes the difference.

I like to think that I'm well along the path to erasing unintentional racist language from my speech, but I still trip and fall on my face often enough. And I'm making a genuine effort to stop! It's all around us, and so insidious we rarely notice it as such. I could spend days on this topic, but will instead say that I can find really good examples if there is interest in specifics.

Racism is real, and most of us fall into it at least once in a while, regardless of our own race. I'm REALLY biased against an entire region of the US and have to consciously guard against condemning them en masse.

A candidate that speaks to people who are openly racist will absolutely get their support. For the people who are not aware of their mild to severe racism, he will still get support, but they will have other explanations for why, and they will believe those reasons to be the entire truth, because they really do not know that they have strong racial biases. In this way, they are no different than a theist who believes that people of other faiths are condemned to their version of an afterlife.

I know a person who voted for Trump, and would stake her life on not being a racist. I completely understand why she did it, and what she articulated as her concerns, but I also heard a fair amount of unrecognized racism in her speech as we discussed it. She worked as a a site manager for a temp agency, and dealt with a lot of immigrants. She was as sweet as the day is long, but she had racist views that she was completely unaware of. Her articulated concerns included Supreme Court nominations, and the future consequences of that pick. Can you guess that she is also anti-abortion? Can you guess that for her, this was the pivotal issue? If so, good job! She claims that she voted against Hillary[1]because she believes that abortion is wrong. And I believe her, but I can't forget that she holds some very racist ideas that she seems oblivious to, and I should have taken the time to point them out when I had the chance. That said, I don't believe racism was a big influence on her choice, but that also means she chose to overlook it when it was on full display.

Next up, sexism.

I was part of an exchange (ok, I actually just butted in) between a young man and a young woman, on a college campus. The guy said "seriously? You're gonna vote for Hillary? She's as old as your grandmother!" I watched her face fall, and a look of disappointment landed and made itself at home. I stopped right there, looked her right in the eyes and said, "sure, but I bet your grandmother didn't spend her entire life in public service did she? And I bet Trump is as old as your grandfather - plenty of our presidents have been - and that never stopped anyone from voting for them. He's giving you a bullshit argument that he didn't even think through for himself." I glanced at him and his jaw was a little bit dropped. She lit up like a Christmas tree, laughed in his face, gave me a hug (!) and walked away saying "Damn straight I'm fucking voting for her!" I was so ridiculously proud of her, a complete stranger. Made my entire day.

So how many times did someone make that argument and there was no one like me there to counter it?

Anyone who tried to deny that there was BLATANT sexism in the campaign is fucking blind. I mean that with complete sincerity. Some of the attacks on her were so fucking sexist it was nauseating. Why the fuck did anyone care about her clothing, or her make up, or how much sleep she was getting - her looks, her looks, her looks, over and over and over. And it was everywhere, about everything, while the male GOP candidates debated dick size on national television. What. The. Fuck.

And let's not forget two groups of people in all this - the men who would DIE before casting a vote for a woman, and the women who feel the same way.

Finally, demographics. Let's remember that literally HALF of the country could not be bothered to get up and cast a vote. So while we argue about the motives of Trump voters, let's keep some perspective about how many people we are actually talking about. Roughly 25% of the eligible voters chose Trump. A quarter of the voting population.

Yes, Hillary was a poor candidate. Yes, the DNC fucked up, bigly.

Yes, there was Russian interference in social and news media. We NEED to accept that this IS a factor. We all want to believe that we are immune to such attempts but it's clearly not the case that we are.

Yes, Trump voters include a significant number of racist individuals, and a not insignificant number of voters who were willing to ignore HIS racism in favor of whatever reasons they had for not voting for Hillary.

I spend very little time at right wing news outlets, but after the Trump dating kerrfluffle, I had to CONVINCE my daughter that The Daily Caller is an actual right wing news site and not a parody. She was certain that it was a joke site, even after she had read a few articles. Since then, I've been sticking my nose in (and right back out in a hurry usually, these people are scary AND nuts!). If you haven't been into many of then, it's worth the time to get a sense of how those who are openly speaking are presenting themselves.

There is no single explanation of why people voted the way they did. It's complex and multi-layered, with sexism, racism, fear of a changing world that they feel unprepared for, fear of a loss of privilege and status, even if mostly unrecognized - all these factors and more played a role.

It's not as cut and dried as we might prefer, but it's undeniable that racism did play a part, and sexism did as well. It may not be a blatant among the people we know (or at least not on as obvious a display) but it is there, in a large number of people.

I'm grateful that the worst whatever-ists I have the misfortune to know IRL are too disengaged to bother voting or the outcomes may have been much uglier. Then again, if those couldn't be bothered had cast votes as well, who knows what the outcome would actually have been? There's no way to know, but there is evidence in what people are saying NOW that indicates regret on the part of some, and vindication of the part of others. Both are real.

Yes, Trump voters include a significant number of racist individuals, and a not insignificant number of voters who were willing to ignore HIS racism in favor of whatever reasons they had for not voting for Hillary.

to me, the ignoring of someone else's racism when one would get a benefit from doing so makes them directly racists. they were willing to sell out any concept of equality. it's them above everybody.

Logged

"There is no use in arguing with a man who can multiply anything by the square root of minus 1" - Pirates of Venus, ERB