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Paradox Engine Combo

Yo, I had this idea in mind for ages, but I never managed to get a "decent" build (which means that this deck is currently pretty underwhelming), hope to get some help and maybe to spark some interest.

The idea is to abuse Paradox Engine in combination with artifacts that have busted tap abilities.

Is important to understand that we don't need much to win if we get the portal running, if we have enough mana (2 monoliths) to activate it freely we can cast our entire deck, also, the downside of temple bell is not that big of a deal during the combo because even if our opponent draws counters we can keep drawing and chaining spells.
To help getting the portal going I also run at least two free mana sources (Lotus Petal and Mox Opal), this way we can search for them and get the mana to cast a Grim Monolith, then we can cast all the mana rock and then all the deck.

Given that we won't always have Engine in play we should play more cards able to untap our artifacts, Voltaic Key is great (but then we can't play Chalice) and Clock of Omens is also pretty decent.

To end the game we can go for a giant Walking Ballista or nuke with Aetherflux Reservoir, we should also run a Spine of Ish Sah because we can play it (get a full untap) to destroy itself, which allows to easily go infinite as long as we have the mana to cast it endlessly.

Re: Paradox Engine Combo

Just throwing out some thoughts here...

Isochron Scepter with an imprinted card such as Fire//Ice should be GG with Engine and a Monolith ... then again you would need atleast a light blue splash and enough imprintables to make it worthwhile. Staying colorless; Warping Wail would also do the trick in the above scenario, as in creating infinite 1/1 spawns.

The upside of blue is getting access to Power Artifact + Monolith as another route to infinite mana, but that's UU and a heavy splash... which might be too much for mana consistency.

Likely, staying colorless and playing Chalice + Trinisphere + Ensnaring Bridge to stall until comboing off is the correct way to go about it. More card draw or filtering is needed... Azor's Gateway is the cheapest one for filtering.

Re: Paradox Engine Combo

Voltaic Key supercharges Ratchet Bomb, so I would likely include that in your 75. I made an underwhelming brown Tron list for modern that used Key, Bomb, Icy Manipulator, Lodestone Golem, and Myr Battlesphere. It was janky as hell and incredibly fun. The most surprising interaction I discovered was Ratchet Bomb + Voltaic Key. Bomb is usually too slow, but Key brings it online very quickly. If you're already committed to a set of Voltaic Key I think Bomb is a serious consideration.

I am counted amongst legions of the unrighteous
who dread not being immersed in pits of fire

Even if you stick with the original shell instead, I really like Trading Post in this deck. It has so many relevant modes and gets very powerful with repeated untaps! You can discard extra lands into life, make Goat tokens and sacrifice them to return Lotus Petals (to get more untaps), sacrifice extra artifacts to draw, recycle Spine of Ish Sah if you need to blow up multiple lock pieces, recur dead combo pieces, etc. It also combos with Spine of Ish Sah to give you infinite draws if your rocks can generate 8 mana, at which point you can trivially win the game.

You might have to have a transformational sideboard to avoid getting hit by gravehate. Or stuff like Silent Gravestone.

Ensnaring Bridge answers a lot of creature-based threats and conveniently can be found by Trophy Mage. Caltrops is a jank card nobody plays in any format, but it conveniently kills a lot of pesky weenies that sneak under Ensnaring Bridge and can let your Retrievers suicide in a pinch, so it might be worth a slot?

Trophy Mage might also be better as Fabricate so it can get Engine/Trading Post instead of just auxiliary stuff. Then -4 Caverns +4 Seat of the Synod.

Re: Paradox Engine Combo

i actually messed around with this style of deck for a bit. i had a list i ran at my lgs for a few weeks. it ran off the dramatic scepter combo but supported it with paradox engine as well. was much more combo focused though so it had some issues vs heavy disruption(discard or counters). it was definitely not a chalice deck with my build but it was pretty fast. it could win t1, but t2/3 wins were somewhat common and you needed a pretty bad draw to not be able to goldfish into a win t4 or later. im at work atm but i will dig up my list and post it later once i get home. it was blue w/ a splash of red.

fwiw fire//ice doesn't go under scepter anymore(i'ts a 4 cmc spell for anything that checks cmc now) but i still think scepter is a very potent option especially w/ engine backing it up.

Re: Paradox Engine Combo

Originally Posted by Jkibbs

i actually messed around with this style of deck for a bit. i had a list i ran at my lgs for a few weeks. it ran off the dramatic scepter combo but supported it with paradox engine as well. was much more combo focused though so it had some issues vs heavy disruption(discard or counters). it was definitely not a chalice deck with my build but it was pretty fast. it could win t1, but t2/3 wins were somewhat common and you needed a pretty bad draw to not be able to goldfish into a win t4 or later.

Re: Paradox Engine Combo

Saturn from MTGO here.

I built the deck originally to combat Workshop Aggro and Combo in Vintage. I wanted a deck that packed as many turn one wins as possible. I've put up multiple Top 8 finishes in the Vintage Weekly Challenge. You can find my results here. I've lost about half of my losses to risky keeps on the draw, half were to my opponents, and the remainder were to whiffs.

Aetherflux Reservoir doubles as damage mitigation and a kill condition. And Emrakul, the Aeons Torn is a great finisher. You can even pass the turn and discard it to shuffle your graveyard back. You could consider running Jalum Tomes over Temple Bells if you're worried about Emrakul getting stuck in your hand. Personally, I wouldn't worry about it because you have Staff of Domination to fill your hand to eight and discard at end of turn, if, for some reason, you can't generate 15 mana and just cast it. Or you can just crack Lion's Eye Diamond.

Chrome Mox is a weird card choice, but you don't really care if it adds mana or not as long as you untap and continue your combo.

You also have one flex spot. I'm not sure what I would consider here. I played Legacy competitively many years ago, but now I stick to Vintage. I suggest a single copy of Walking Ballista.

To address specific points raised:
I wouldn't consider Ensnaring Bridge. You should be going off faster than creature decks.
I wouldn't consider Metalworker. If you need an untap to win, you're probably going to lose.
Neither Chalice of the Void nor Ratchet Bomb help you win. They help you not lose. Play to win.
I wouldn't consider Myr Retriever. You don't care what's in your graveyard.Crystal Vein, Clock of Omens, and Serum Powder might be good.
Just stay away from not-lose combos like Trading Post/Spine of Ish Sah combo. You don't care about killing anything on the table game one. You just want to win as quickly as possible and be able to do so through countermagic and/or sphere effects. They're going to bring all their hate in game two, and your combos are going to lose their effectiveness.

Re: Paradox Engine Combo

Iím doing this from work so this wonít be formatted correctly but it gives the jist of the deck. I canít find my sb anywhere but it was a bit all over the place. Pretty sure it had some forces and some abrades but not sure after that.

Yeah for t1 win u need win con in hand along with the mana/storm generation too. Only pulled t1 off once but it was a pretty cool feeling winning t1 with a rogue home brew 😎

One thing to remember is that scepter combo also generates infi storm along with mana if u have a loop making 3+ mana, it can just make infi storm on a 2 mana loop which means if your loop makes red mana u can just win with grape shot and infi strom. If u win with ballista or grape shot the entire combo can be played under a resolves teeg which is a nice bonus. The cannon is so u can transmute into win. Ballista died to state based and obviously I canít go get grape shot easily. My original list actually ran a spell seeker package as it finds something to go under scepter, grapeshot or transmute. It also finds pull which can also go under scepter if u have win on board and just need a way to loop to make mana. U can loop a mox opal with an imprinted repeal with engine in play and I think 1 more mana but Iíd have to go back through the steps to be sure. This loop does draw your deck which allows u to win however u would like. Reversal can also be used ďfairĒ to make a bunch of mana and cast a fair large ballista. With engine u get 2 untaps with reversal which can make a lot of mana pretty quickly.

Just stay away from not-lose combos like Trading Post/Spine of Ish Sah combo. You don't care about killing anything on the table game one. You just want to win as quickly as possible and be able to do so through countermagic and/or sphere effects. They're going to bring all their hate in game two, and your combos are going to lose their effectiveness.

-Ensnaring Bridge isn't just for random dumb aggro racing for Turn 5 wins. It's also for stuff like Turn 1 Emrakul, the Aeons Torn/Griselbrand, which will outrace you. And aggro-control decks that will counter your engine and beatdown with Delver or Gurmag Angler. Creatures are a much bigger presence in Legacy.

-Legacy aggro-control, the biggest roadblock for glass cannon combo decks, is highly dependent on 1 cmc spells. That's where Chalice comes in. Otherwise they Thoughtseize you, cantrip into countermagic, etc... Ratchet Bomb could also answer things like Thalia, Guardian of Thraben that make it impossible to go off. You could try to race around disruption instead, but will this really be a better goldfish deck than Belcher or OopsAllSpells?

- Trading Post is a winning engine, not just a not-lose combo. Paradox Engine + Post + Myr Retrievers = unlimited draws and unlimited untaps. Draw your deck, play wincon. Post + Spine does the same thing (Spine target itself, in response sac to draw) but costs more mana. I suggest Trading Post+recursion as a way to "go off". The recursion is a side benefit, in case something got countered. It's mainly a draw/untap engine.

The weakest thing I think is the draw engine. Trading Post isn't great, but what else is there? Legacy doesn't have draw 7s, Top, or good tutors like Vintage. Even with Paradox Engine + mana rocks out, it's hard to win the game. Temple Bell sort of works, but every time you hit a land you brick, so you need other sources of untaps to save you when you hit bricks. It also feeds the opponent FoWs. Is there any other good engine? Temporal Aperture looks great but also requires more mana before you can go off. It also requires a lot of decisions to not fizzle, while Post loops you can shortcut. Experimental Frenzy looks cool but is there enough mana to make it work fast enough?

Re: Paradox Engine Combo

fwiw fire//ice doesn't go under scepter anymore(i'ts a 4 cmc spell for anything that checks cmc now) but i still think scepter is a very potent option especially w/ engine backing it up.

This made me sad aswell:-( Maybe we should imprint Dimir Charm/Warping Wail instead... I like cards that are good when not comboing, also, killing hatebears and countering sorceries should cover about half of all the hate we face pre/postboard. Both Charm and Wail end the game (soon enough) with Scepter+Engine.

-Ensnaring Bridge isn't just for random dumb aggro racing for Turn 5 wins. It's also for stuff like Turn 1 Emrakul, the Aeons Torn/Griselbrand, which will outrace you. And aggro-control decks that will counter your engine and beatdown with Delver or Gurmag Angler. Creatures are a much bigger presence in Legacy.

-Legacy aggro-control, the biggest roadblock for glass cannon combo decks, is highly dependent on 1 cmc spells. That's where Chalice comes in. Otherwise they Thoughtseize you, cantrip into countermagic, etc... Ratchet Bomb could also answer things like Thalia, Guardian of Thraben that make it impossible to go off. You could try to race around disruption instead, but will this really be a better goldfish deck than Belcher or OopsAllSpells?

- Trading Post is a winning engine, not just a not-lose combo. Paradox Engine + Post + Myr Retrievers = unlimited draws and unlimited untaps. Draw your deck, play wincon. Post + Spine does the same thing (Spine target itself, in response sac to draw) but costs more mana. I suggest Trading Post+recursion as a way to "go off". The recursion is a side benefit, in case something got countered. It's mainly a draw/untap engine.

The weakest thing I think is the draw engine. Trading Post isn't great, but what else is there? Legacy doesn't have draw 7s, Top, or good tutors like Vintage. Even with Paradox Engine + mana rocks out, it's hard to win the game. Temple Bell sort of works, but every time you hit a land you brick, so you need other sources of untaps to save you when you hit bricks. It also feeds the opponent FoWs. Is there any other good engine? Temporal Aperture looks great but also requires more mana.

This deck can flawlessy combo facing 2/3 sphere of resistance, thalia is not a big deal by itself, having mana is not a big deal once you go off (double monolith can cast basicly every single spell we play with thalia on board)

Once you get running, temple bell can literally feed your opponent 10 hard counters and you would still win, every spell you cast gets you a full untap, so you can keep casting free spells as long as you don't brick drawing too many (non blasted landscape) lands.

Talking about myrs, then we could just try KCI in legacy (maybe it is good, who knows), but its kinda hard to run a 3/4 piece combo in a deck that can't manipulate.

It is possible to run more disruption by playing chalice/bridge, but this deck clearly needs a critical mass of "spells that help you win" so we can't really play too many cards that are useless during the combo

"You either die a Onesto-Player, or live long enough to see yourself become a Dredger"

Re: Paradox Engine Combo

Originally Posted by Noctalor

This deck can flawlessy combo facing 2/3 sphere of resistance, thalia is not a big deal by itself, having mana is not a big deal once you go off (double monolith can cast basicly every single spell we play with thalia on board)

Yeah OK I can see that.

How's it performing?

How consistently can you assemble multiple Monoliths, Paradox Engine and a Temple Bell (i.e. enough gas to go off) through game 1 disruption without any maindeck protection. If they Force or Spell Pierce the first Paradox Engine, do you just lose?

Re: Paradox Engine Combo

originally when i sat down and decided to write this type of list i focused very heavily on scepter/reversal thinking it was my strongest option. as i played the list though i found that i was getting engine into play and just can-tripping into wins when i really had no business doing so. while i do think being conscious of the decks interactions with scepter, i think it can play a bit of a back up plan to engine(or at least let them share the lead role).

if i was to sleeve the deck up today it would probably be similar to the list i posted before but with some slight changes.

one of the really nice things about playing can-trips and scepter is that you have the reasonably strong play of sol land into scepter t1 imprinting a can-trip. this lets us get non combo value out of our combo pieces and can still lead to slamming an engine a few turns later and comboing out. this also means we don't have to run as many dead combo pieces as we have multiple avenues to combo out. reversal just doesn't quite do enough on its own so i think keeping copies of it to a minimum is a good idea, especially when we don't absolutely need it to combo. another option we could take would be to swap the red splash for black and run better rocks(talismans) and have tendrils as our new combo finisher. face laser could be an option too but i think i still like cannon atm, at least in my build. i could see running 2+ lasers but i'd like to see some testing before just slamming it in. with a different build i could see it being pretty interesting.

another card that i really thought about is mission briefing. you can have a pretty hilarious 2 mana win with it. set up infi cast loop off rocks/engine and imprinted briefing on scepter, then mill the deck multiple times with an eldrazi titan, and kill via crippling chill you could also set up interesting lines with rituals and imprinted briefing. start a 2 mana loop that makes black mana and mill until you start hitting rituals and then either cast more spells from hand or just mill the deck, cast all you rituals from yard and then tendrils(from hand or yard) behind it for the win. a combination of briefing and experimental frenzy could be interesting too, but then you are in 3 colors which i'm not sure is doable tbh.

Re: Paradox Engine Combo

Hi mistercakes and all the rest of you

I love playing around with this deck - it does some crazy hilarious things.

Just a couple of suggestions and wonderings?
1. Magistrate's scepter kan sometimes buy you enough time(/extra rounds) to win. It may be to win-more, but it's got me out of some otherwise non-winnable situations
2. A single Emrakul, the aons torn is really great in the deck. Especially when you bounce him with your paradoxical outcome, just to play him again...
3. The deck really needs som protection - be it sphere of resistance, lodestone golem or defense grid. A list of 16 lands and all combo-juice is not gonna make it far. I think you have to dedicate 4 maindeck slots for something (I really like defense grid)
4. Chain of vapor kan do amazing things - it should at least be in the sideboard
5. Why are some of you playing transmute artifact over a simple fabricate? The double U cost is very prohibitive, and you even have to sac one of your artifacts

To mistercakes list...
6. Why temporal aperture? It seems way to expensive to use, and is it really necessary? I would always play paradoxical outcome before aperture.
7. Why comes into play tapped-lands? I would rather play islands (and at least a single seat of the synod). I know they can make to mana the turn they untap, but it seems very slowing to me.
8. 4 Tezz seem too many. I wouldn't play more than 2. But having said that, it is an amazing card!

Re: Paradox Engine Combo

Originally Posted by meanee

Hi mistercakes and all the rest of you

I love playing around with this deck - it does some crazy hilarious things.

Just a couple of suggestions and wonderings?
1. Magistrate's scepter kan sometimes buy you enough time(/extra rounds) to win. It may be to win-more, but it's got me out of some otherwise non-winnable situations
2. A single Emrakul, the aons torn is really great in the deck. Especially when you bounce him with your paradoxical outcome, just to play him again...
3. The deck really needs som protection - be it sphere of resistance, lodestone golem or defense grid. A list of 16 lands and all combo-juice is not gonna make it far. I think you have to dedicate 4 maindeck slots for something (I really like defense grid)
4. Chain of vapor kan do amazing things - it should at least be in the sideboard
5. Why are some of you playing transmute artifact over a simple fabricate? The double U cost is very prohibitive, and you even have to sac one of your artifacts

To mistercakes list...
6. Why temporal aperture? It seems way to expensive to use, and is it really necessary? I would always play paradoxical outcome before aperture.
7. Why comes into play tapped-lands? I would rather play islands (and at least a single seat of the synod). I know they can make to mana the turn they untap, but it seems very slowing to me.
8. 4 Tezz seem too many. I wouldn't play more than 2. But having said that, it is an amazing card!

just testing for now, no list is absolutely necessary. aperture is not necessary, but i do enjoy it. i guess if i were more serious with aperture i'd probably run 2 emrakul, the aeon's torn for stealing games randomly.

it does allow for something like this though. turn 1 tomb + grim. turn 2 CoT -> paradox, tap grim for 3, cast aperture, (then have any 0 drop in hand or key in hand, and you can activate aperture. if you hit a non-land, you have a good chance of winning that turn. they kind of function like the draw effect.

seat of the synod is probably better than the fallen empires land, especially if you want to run thoughtcast, which is probably correct. synod also works very well with transmute artifact. AND it's good for mox opal. def run seat.

2 or 3 tezz is probably fine. i like that it's an additional win condition as well.

of course it doesn't have any way of defending itself right now, so it's possible there should be maybe a singleton trinisphere and a singleton ensnaring bridge in the maindeck. i also like the idea of 1 magistrate's scepter instead of 1 reservoir.

could also cut the thoughtcasts for 2 transmute and 1 bridge, or 1 transmute, 1 bridge, 1 trin: