If Logic Design doesn't get back to you, or he no longer sells the VF, I've found the Grex filter(got mine on Amazon) is pretty decent. It doesn't have the options of the VF(like forcing the WS bit) or possibly the ability to use it with component(it many but I've never tried it) and it does ever so slightly elevate the black level, but I consider mine money well spent and it works better than 3 out of 4 of my old Sima CT-2s.

Noticed an interesting note at the bottom of the HDfury page you linked - they're still pissing and moaning about getting stepped on by the hdcp consortium, but the part that interests me is they're pointing out the procedure to kill HDCP on a samsung DVD player

Who wants more?Now if that is not enough to convince you, let us tell you that ALL manufacturers, the very same that are also part of the HDCP consortium, included escape trick in their sources devices. Some would need firmware upgrade, some would need special service disk, some would just need remote control sequence.As an example for a Samsung HD850, the HDCP free mode can be reached as follow:
1. Power “ON” – “no disk” showing on display
2. Press “Angle” on the Samsung remote
3. Press “4 3 2 7″
4. Press “Angle” again – OSD will show “HDCP Free” confirming the changes.

wonder if the same feature or capability exists on other DVD players and if so, the procedure must be listed in the unit service manual - anyone have a service manual for any dvd player?

I really doubt it would work, AFAIK only a very few DVD players, mostly cheap Chinese knock offs, could be hacked to be MV free. Apex was one I know for sure but like the few DVDRs with component inputs like Polaroid(which again generally didn't have CP) they were so poor of a quality that you'd be better off using a quality DVDR with S-video inputs and a filter. I know the Apex I had more than a decade ago(not a model that could be hacked) had rather poor video quality. I also believe Apex was shut down for allowing this backdoor feature so I doubt very many other mfgs. would do such a thing.http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apex_Digital (read second paragraph in link)
I think I may just have that Samsung 850 DVD player mentioned in your link, I'm a little leary of trying those keystrokes though, I wouldn't want to tank it if it actually did something different than was described. If it's the DVD player I'm thinking about it's a decent quality player, I just prefer the feature set of my Sonys which is kind of my bread and butter players, and ain't NO! way Sonys going to offer such a setting

thanks but as others have mentioned, i've seen quite a mixed reviewed on the GREX -

The GREX is about as good as it gets short of the Logic Design. The LD is superb and versatile, but you pay more for superb and versatile. If you need utterly clean output, full component/HiDef compatibility, and 16:9 flag setting, the Logic Design is the better option.

If you plan on using a typical DVD recorder with the filtered signal, the Logic Design unit is overkill for most people (unless your budget permits overkill, of course- nothing wrong with buying the best). The Grex may "taint" the picture slightly, and requires a workaround when used with component HDTV recorders, but most standard-def devices will work just fine with it.

Quality control of the AVT-8710 went into the toilet some time ago, so the price is hard to justify now. Most buyers complain it has much worse image contamination than a Grex, and many new AVT-8710s don't even meet the spec required to call them TBCs anymore. In this price range, the Logic Design is a better unit by far. And the Grex is half the price of an 8710 with triple the reliability.

Video geeks have been arguing over how to identify a "good" 8710 for the past couple years, but I have yet to see a consistent theory aside from "get the oldest one you can find". Not much help since they all look alike. Another popular suggestion is to look for one in a green colored case, as those are supposedly better made, but I have seen terrible buyer reviews from people who bought the green ones at B&H. YMMV. If you opt for an AVT-8710, be sure to get a return guarantee and test it exhaustively.

Re using a DVD player with hidden MV defeat features: this does not always help if you are trying to dub to a DVD recorder or PC capture device. The MV kill switch only kills the analog MV signal, which primarily helps VCRs and older TVs. Commercial DVDs have an extra CGMS-A protection scheme piggybacked with MV, which is not necessarily disabled by the MV kill switch. In any case, it rarely makes sense to copy DVDs in this manner when software can do it perfectly in your PC.

Variations of the CGMS-A idea are used in cable and satellite transmissions: most people today looking for the Grex and Video Filter devices need them for those recording tasks.

Your example of the Samsung with its secret HDMI settings is fairly unique among players: I have not heard of any players that allow HDMI alterations, even unintentionally. The most common method of filtering HDMI involves buying an inexpensive switch or splitter, usually from some generic brand on eBay or Amazon, and connecting it between source and recording device. Lots of discussions cover this on various forums, the brands and models change constantly.

Noticed an interesting note at the bottom of the HDfury page you linked - they're still pissing and moaning about getting stepped on by the hdcp consortium, but the part that interests me is they're pointing out the procedure to kill HDCP on a samsung DVD player

Who wants more?Now if that is not enough to convince you, let us tell you that ALL manufacturers, the very same that are also part of the HDCP consortium, included escape trick in their sources devices. Some would need firmware upgrade, some would need special service disk, some would just need remote control sequence.As an example for a Samsung HD850, the HDCP free mode can be reached as follow:
1. Power “ON” – “no disk” showing on display
2. Press “Angle” on the Samsung remote
3. Press “4 3 2 7″
4. Press “Angle” again – OSD will show “HDCP Free” confirming the changes.

wonder if the same feature or capability exists on other DVD players and if so, the procedure must be listed in the unit service manual - anyone have a service manual for any dvd player?

is this old news?

I do own that DVD player, what do you think CB, do you think there would be any risk of trying those keystrokes? It's not my favorite DVD player but I'd hate to brick it if you think those codes may harm something.....Oh and did you say it was only for removing HDCP from HDMI output, I wouldn't care about that, I'd want to remove MV from the analog(composite or S-video) outputs, if it doesn't do this I'd have no interest in trying it.

The GREX is about as good as it gets short of the Logic Design. The LD is superb and versatile, but you pay more for superb and versatile. If you need utterly clean output, full component/HiDef compatibility, and 16:9 flag setting, the Logic Design is the better option.

If you plan on using a typical DVD recorder with the filtered signal, the Logic Design unit is overkill for most people (unless your budget permits overkill, of course- nothing wrong with buying the best). The Grex may "taint" the picture slightly, and requires a workaround when used with component HDTV recorders, but most standard-def devices will work just fine with it.

Quality control of the AVT-8710 went into the toilet some time ago, so the price is hard to justify now. Most buyers complain it has much worse image contamination than a Grex, and many new AVT-8710s don't even meet the spec required to call them TBCs anymore. In this price range, the Logic Design is a better unit by far. And the Grex is half the price of an 8710 with triple the reliability.

Video geeks have been arguing over how to identify a "good" 8710 for the past couple years, but I have yet to see a consistent theory aside from "get the oldest one you can find". Not much help since they all look alike. Another popular suggestion is to look for one in a green colored case, as those are supposedly better made, but I have seen terrible buyer reviews from people who bought the green ones at B&H. YMMV. If you opt for an AVT-8710, be sure to get a return guarantee and test it exhaustively.

Re using a DVD player with hidden MV defeat features: this does not always help if you are trying to dub to a DVD recorder or PC capture device. The MV kill switch only kills the analog MV signal, which primarily helps VCRs and older TVs. Commercial DVDs have an extra CGMS-A protection scheme piggybacked with MV, which is not necessarily disabled by the MV kill switch. In any case, it rarely makes sense to copy DVDs in this manner when software can do it perfectly in your PC.

Variations of the CGMS-A idea are used in cable and satellite transmissions: most people today looking for the Grex and Video Filter devices need them for those recording tasks.

Your example of the Samsung with its secret HDMI settings is fairly unique among players: I have not heard of any players that allow HDMI alterations, even unintentionally. The most common method of filtering HDMI involves buying an inexpensive switch or splitter, usually from some generic brand on eBay or Amazon, and connecting it between source and recording device. Lots of discussions cover this on various forums, the brands and models change constantly.

jjeff, I don't have any direct experience with hacking the Samsung 850: my reply to larryccf concerned the general notion that hacking the MV function in a player would make it possible to dub DVDs from it. In my experience with several old DVD players this was not accurate: killing the MV allows dubbing to VCRs but not necessarily to DVD recorders (which can still sense the secondary post-VCR signals not affected by the MV kill hack).

AFAIK, hacking the Samsung 850 was very common and does not damage the unit. I did not realize how old the 850 was: I thought larryccf was talking about a much newer player when I responded to his post (that I was shocked it could have its HDMI hacked at all). After doing a bit of digging, I see now that 8 years ago there were problems with a lot of expensive HDTV projectors that predated HDCP not working well with then-new HDCP compliant devices. So some mfrs included a back-door hack that would indirectly disable HDCP (in Samsung's case, the excuse was they couldn't unlock Region Free without also unlocking Component Upscaling, disabling HDCP and killing MV).

Apparently there are many variations of the 850 so the hack doesn't work consistently on all of them. Some owners had to repeat the hack several times before it "took." Combing thru multiple posts, each with a different tip, leads to this overall hack procedure:

Disconnect any HDMI cable from the 850.
Connect component cables from 850 to TV,
Use 850 setup menu to choose Component/HDMI connection.

1. Turn your television ON
2. Turn the DVD Player ON
(You should see the Samsung screen saver appear on the TV)
3. Ensure the DVD tray is EMPTY and CLOSED
4. Wait for the message 'NO DISC' to appear
5. Press the ANGLE button
6. Press the numbers 4, 3, 2, 7. You may or may not see "HDCP Free" flicker on your screen after hitting 7 (depends on player production date).
7. Press the OPEN/CLOSE button to open the disc tray. Wait 10 seconds.
8. Press HDMI Select and scroll to 720p or 1080i

You should now be able to select and view upscaling resolutions via component and HDMI, player should be region-free, and HDCP should be disabled via HDMI. MV may or may not be disabled: reports vary.

For in-depth discussion of Samsung 850 hacks, check the threads here and here. There are many more at the UK AVscience forum.

Nice find CB, especially the last AVS link. My 850(purchased used a few years back for probably <$20 second hand) is currently shelved so I think one of these days I'll have to hook it up(via component) and try the hack. I have little to lose since I paid so little, so I think I'll go ahead and try. Again I am only interested in it's ability to disable MV via S-video, don't really care about component nor region free ability.
The 850 is actually a decent player, quite good quality via it's S-video output to one of my DVDRs, I just didn't care for it's feature set, in particular it's rather odd search functions. I do remember though it had the ability to play select DVDs that might skip or lock in another player. Not that it would play any DVD, some would skip or lock on the 850 that would play on another player but some would only play on the 850. As I've heard you say in the past, DVD burning/playing is kind of voodoo science, who knows why one disc will play in one machine but not another but one thing I know for sure, for best chances it's best to have several different players of various brands to play most discs.

Nice find CB, especially the last AVS link. My 850(purchased used a few years back for probably <$20 second hand) is currently shelved so I think one of these days I'll have to hook it up(via component) and try the hack. I have little to lose since I paid so little, so I think I'll go ahead and try. Again I am only interested in it's ability to disable MV via S-video, don't really care about component nor region free ability.
The 850 is actually a decent player, quite good quality via it's S-video output to one of my DVDRs, I just didn't care for it's feature set, in particular it's rather odd search functions. I do remember though it had the ability to play select DVDs that might skip or lock in another player. Not that it would play any DVD, some would skip or lock on the 850 that would play on another player but some would only play on the 850. As I've heard you say in the past, DVD burning/playing is kind of voodoo science, who knows why one disc will play in one machine but not another but one thing I know for sure, for best chances it's best to have several different players of various brands to play most discs.

in case it serves - just got my samsung HD850 in last night, this morning had a few moments, and after setting it up & playing a dvd to check it out as it was bought used, ran the following instructions (first set from that string citibear linked to) and the "HDCP Free" came up in the upper left corner of the screen on first try and stayed on.

it did reset the component selection from "HDMI/Component" which i'd selected in the initial setup process, to "composite" - reset and resolution came up automatically set to 1080i. Popped a DVD in & it played fine. It definitely did not brick my HD 850

these are the instructions that got me to the "HDCP Free" status

Disconnect any HDMI cable from the 850.
Connect component cables from 850 to TV,
Use 850 setup menu to choose Component/HDMI connection.

1. Turn your television ON
2. Turn the DVD Player ON
(You should see the Samsung screen saver appear on the TV)
3. Ensure the DVD tray is EMPTY and CLOSED
4. Wait for the message 'NO DISC' to appear
5. Press the ANGLE button
6. Press the numbers 4, 3, 2, 7. You may or may not see "HDCP Free" flicker on your screen after hitting 7 (depends on player production date).
7. Press the OPEN/CLOSE button to open the disc tray. Wait 10 seconds.
8. Press HDMI Select and scroll to 720p or 1080i

I can't check if it's truly pumping a HDCP free signal till my pan EH59 arrives - B&H email sez delivery should be July 7th, so it's going to be a long ween for me

I can't check if it's truly pumping a HDCP free signal till my pan EH59 arrives - B&H email sez delivery should be July 7th, so it's going to be a long ween for me

fwiw

Thanks for the follow up. Do you currently have a DVDR or VCR? If you did you could just pop in a commercial DVD and try and record it from the 850s composite/S-video output. Note believe it or not not all commercial DVDs are CP'd, Shrink will report if it's encrypted but not if it just has MV. I guess if you had another DVD player(and again DVDR or VCR) you could use that for your MV test, if you get the warning or in the case of a VCR dark and bright flashing picture upon playback, you know you have a CP'd DVD, try the same DVD in your 850 and see what happens.
I'm guessing since it says HDCP (high definition copy protection) free, all the hack may do is to turn off CP from the component output, that or just allow a CP'd DVD to be upconverted to it's component output. I believe legally a CP'd source is not supposed to be able to be upconverted over component, although this messes with peoples ability to upconvert a DVD for older HDTVs that only have component inputs(not HDMI).

Of all players Sony will output CP I'd try the Sony first to the EH-59 and when you get a disc that gives you the CP warning on the Panasonic, substitute the Samsung and see how it goes, if it also gives you the warning then the Video Filter will get rid of the warning for you. Good luck and please post back your results. If the 850 works then I'll take mine out of retirement, currently it's sitting on a shelf and I'm using my Sony and Grex converter, if the 850 works my guess is the picture quality will be better using it vs the Sony and Grex which does degrade the picture a bit.

I'm guessing since it says HDCP (high definition copy protection) free, all the hack may do is to turn off CP from the component output, that or just allow a CP'd DVD to be upconverted to it's component output.

HDCP is digital copy protection and only applies to the HDMI output. The whole point of the HDMI spec. vs. DVI was that HDMI included HDCP compliance whereas DVI did not. HDCP does not apply to component analog inputs/outputs -- i.e. the analog hole. Those are protected by MacroVision or some other analog CP.

The only way to test the Samsung player would be to use a recording device that has HDCP compliant HDMI inputs. That would be a Hauppauge HD PVR 1512. The HDMI input of the 1512 allows recording non HDCP protected source which is primarily (only?) game-play for an Xbox or PS3 -- but not HDCP protected source such as a DVD/BluRay. If you can hook the HDMI output of the Samsung to a 1512 and record a DVD or BluRay, then the Samsung player is truly HDCP-free.

- kelson h

The bitterness of poor quality lasts long after the sweetness of the low price is forgotten . . . life is too short to drink bad wine

Do you currently have a DVDR or VCR? If you did you could just pop in a commercial DVD and try and record it from the 850s composite/S-video output. Note believe it or not not all commercial DVDs are CP'd, Shrink will report if it's encrypted but not if it just has MV. I guess if you had another DVD player(and again DVDR or VCR) you could use that for your MV test, if you get the warning or in the case of a VCR dark and bright flashing picture upon playback, you know you have a CP'd DVD, try the same DVD in your 850 and see what happens.
I'm guessing since it says HDCP (high definition copy protection) free, all the hack may do is to turn off CP from the component output, that or just allow a CP'd DVD to be upconverted to it's component output. I believe legally a CP'd source is not supposed to be able to be upconverted over component, although this messes with peoples ability to upconvert a DVD for older HDTVs that only have component inputs(not HDMI).

Most newer studio DVDs will record to VCR no problem because the major studios no longer bother with regular macrovision. However most newer studio DVDs will carry CGMS-A and won’t record to DVD recorders without using a filter.

Even the studio made DVDs I copied to SVHS without a problem won’t allow me to record those SVHS tapes to DVDr without using a filter. That’s because VHS/SVHS will carry/pass thru the CGMS-A signal but VCR playback is unaffected.

well the goal was to see if the "HDCP Free" status would allow it to record to a DVDR without the filter - if it doesn't, then i've got myself a $40 backup DVD player. I've got a video filter due in soon, so i'll have that angle covered as well.

HDCP is digital copy protection and only applies to the HDMI output. The whole point of the HDMI spec. vs. DVI was that HDMI included HDCP compliance whereas DVI did not. HDCP does not apply to component analog inputs/outputs -- i.e. the analog hole. Those are protected by MacroVision or some other analog CP.

The only way to test the Samsung player would be to use a recording device that has HDCP compliant HDMI inputs. That would be a Hauppauge HD PVR 1512. The HDMI input of the 1512 allows recording non HDCP protected source which is primarily (only?) game-play for an Xbox or PS3 -- but not HDCP protected source such as a DVD/BluRay. If you can hook the HDMI output of the Samsung to a 1512 and record a DVD or BluRay, then the Samsung player is truly HDCP-free.

What you say makes sense, although another test would be one of the new HD Fury(HDMI to Component) filters that are supposed to shut down when they detect HDCP. Of course the catch with those devices for us DVD recorders people is we'd have to add another device(component to S-video converter) which degrades the picture on it's own
As I said the 850 is a pretty decent player in it's own right, it's basic playback picture quality(especially from it's S-video output) is quite good so as you said even if the hack doesn't work in the way you want it to, it will work good to feed your video filter.

What you say makes sense, although another test would be one of the new HD Fury(HDMI to Component) filters that are supposed to shut down when they detect HDCP. Of course the catch with those devices for us DVD recorders people is we'd have to add another device(component to S-video converter) which degrades the picture on it's own
As I said the 850 is a pretty decent player in it's own right, it's basic playback picture quality(especially from it's S-video output) is quite good so as you said even if the hack doesn't work in the way you want it to, it will work good to feed your video filter.

It just hit me what Kelson was saying when he orig posted that - it makes sense but the Hauppuage 1512 wasn't on my list, and not really inclined to buying one just for the test. With that in mind, best i'll be able to confirm is that the macrovision security has been stripped out.

best i'll be able to confirm is that the macrovision security has been stripped out.

Yes and no. Keep in mind what jjeff and Super Eye posted: MV is only one of the two analog protection schemes used in commercial DVDs. Assuming the HDMI hack does kill MV in your Samsung 850, most likely it will NOT kill the CGMS-A. Thats the invisible analog protection meant to trigger recording lockouts when dubbing to a DVD recorder. So you may find the hacked MV will allow dubbing to VHS but not your new Panasonic EH59 (which is where the Video Filter comes in). In the DVD player spec, MV is created on-the-fly by the player when requested by the DVD, while CGMS-A is embedded in the actual video signal of the DVD itself (so MV can be hacked at hardware level but CGMS-A cannot).

The HDCP hack for the Samsung 850 is also a mixed bag if your sole intent is to dub commercial clips from it. If you don't have a PC recording system with HDMI input, the Samsung hack is probably pointless. To dub from HDMI to a DVD recorder, you'd need a HDMI>composite converter anyway, and those generally kill HDCP during the conversion process. Of all these options, the most direct and clean route would be Samsung 850 S-video output to Video Filter to Panasonic EH59 S-video input.

Yes and no. Keep in mind what jjeff and Super Eye posted: MV is only one of the two analog protection schemes used in commercial DVDs. Assuming the HDMI hack does kill MV in your Samsung 850, most likely it will NOT kill the CGMS-A. Thats the invisible analog protection meant to trigger recording lockouts when dubbing to a DVD recorder. So you may find the hacked MV will allow dubbing to VHS but not your new Panasonic EH59 (which is where the Video Filter comes in). In the DVD player spec, MV is created on-the-fly by the player when requested by the DVD, while CGMS-A is embedded in the actual video signal of the DVD itself (so MV can be hacked at hardware level but CGMS-A cannot).

The HDCP hack for the Samsung 850 is also a mixed bag if your sole intent is to dub commercial clips from it. If you don't have a PC recording system with HDMI input, the Samsung hack is probably pointless. To dub from HDMI to a DVD recorder, you'd need a HDMI>composite converter anyway, and those generally kill HDCP during the conversion process. Of all these options, the most direct and clean route would be Samsung 850 S-video output to Video Filter to Panasonic EH59 S-video input.

in reverse order - the S-video before the component connections?

there was another reason for the hack, for me anyway, but it allows the component connections to elevate to 720i output, whether by upscaling or whatever process, i don't recall but i'm barely literate in this stuff

on the CGMS-A security format, do you know when it was first used? - i'm hoping with the advent of HDMI connections, approx 2005/06 from what i recall. Reason i'm asking, my newest DVD is 2008 release, so hopefully it will have CGMS-A for me to test.

CGMS-A was part of the original DVD spec and has been around since the beginning.

Re dubbing from Samsung 850 to your Panasonic EH59: like most modern DVD recorders, the EH59 does not have component inputs, only outputs (I gather one of the SCART connectors can be configured as component input, but I believe ChurchAVGuy tried this and found the video quality severely compromised). So you would need to use S-video or composite.

If you mean the component connection on the Logic Design Video filter: yes, that might accept the component output of your Samsung 850 and convert it to S-Video for your EH59. Whether that will result in an improvement over direct S-video to S-video throughput is something you'll need to test for yourself. I have found fooling with either component or HDMI conversion to be more trouble than its worth unless I absolutely MUST use it to solve an unusual problem.

MV is created on-the-fly by the player when requested by the DVD, while CGMS-A is embedded in the actual video signal of the DVD itself (so MV can be hacked at hardware level but CGMS-A cannot).

Actually the Video Filter or any other filter for use with DVDRs would have to not only remove MV but also CGMS-A at the hardware level, it's the old VHS only filters that may only remove MV. Also while the Video Filter may be able to be used with component it won't convert from component to S-video or composite, it would be just a component in/component out device. Re SCART converters, AFAIK the SCART converters for use with international Panasonics don't convert from SCART to/from component but rather SCART to/from composite/S-video. I could be wrong on the last part as I've never used one but when looking at them I remember I wouldn't really gain anything from purchasing one, except another possible S-video input/output.
Larryccf, while a component input would be nice for sure, the international Panasonics do a very good job with S-video, using a decent recording speed(LP or shorter preferably with FR set ~2.5hrs) your copies should look almost like the original. A filter may degrade the picture a bit, but I've been told the one you ordered(Video Filter brand) is about as good as it gets.