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It's part of the same sentence genius. It's a comma..... It's, most of you say.....everything you quoted....look at the rest of the post that you cut out. Look at the other quote I put at the end.

I didn't say I want them to use even older ideas. I said it's what people are asking for.

Really? No way, how about now looking at the part where I point out HOW could "most of" be asking for even older gameplay ideas when "most of" those players weren't even playing back then?!? There were less than 2 million MMORPG players 13 years ago so how can most of the over 30 million MMORPG players of today be asking for crap they didn't take part in, and WHY would they when everything we have today is using all of those ideas in an evolved form?!? That's like saying people would want to go back to the hand crank automobiles to get away from using a key ignition instead of wanting a voice activated hover-car.

It is clear that it is your perspective you are giving because you are tossing out all logic in favor of something that makes no sense at all.......not to mention the fact that most of these damn clones got their ideas from those very same old games you are referring to. WoW did not start everything, it took almost every idea from previous games. THAT is why players are SICK of the same old crap over and over again because its just the same pile getting bigger and bigger.

We don't want whats at the bottom of that pile, because its part of the SAME pile. Its old, boring and been done too many times. Most people want something NEW AND DIFFERENT.

All TESO is doing is taking the same pile of crap and placing it in a new bag, with a popular brand on the package.

"People who tell you you’re awesome are useless. No, dangerous.

They are worse than useless because you want to believe them. They will defend you against critiques that are valid. They will seduce you into believing you are done learning, or into thinking that your work is better than it actually is." ~Raph Koster http://www.raphkoster.com/2013/10/14/on-getting-criticism/

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It's part of the same sentence genius. It's a comma..... It's, most of you say.....everything you quoted....look at the rest of the post that you cut out. Look at the other quote I put at the end.

I didn't say I want them to use even older ideas. I said it's what people are asking for.

Really? No way, how about now looking at the part where I point out HOW could "most of" be asking for even older gameplay ideas when "most of" those players weren't even playing back then?!? There were less than 2 million MMORPG players 13 years ago so how can most of the over 30 million MMORPG players of today be asking for crap they didn't take part in, and WHY would they when everything we have today is using all of those ideas in an evolved form?!? That's like saying people would want to go back to the hand crank automobiles to get away from using a key ignition instead of wanting a voice activated hover-car.

It is clear that it is your perspective you are giving because you are tossing out all logic in favor of something that makes no sense at all.......not to mention the fact that most of these damn clones got their ideas from those very same old games you are referring to. WoW did not start everything, it took almost every idea from previous games. THAT is why players are SICK of the same old crap over and over again because its just the same pile getting bigger and bigger.

We don't want whats at the bottom of that pile, because its part of the SAME pile. Its old, boring and been done too many times. Most people want something NEW AND DIFFERENT.

All TESO is doing is taking the same pile of crap and placing it in a new bag, with a popular brand on the package.

You're reading comprehension is atrocious. Even after telling you a third time to go back and read the first post all the way through you're still clinging to things I didn't say and miss quoting parts of it. I'm not sure explaining this a 4th time is even worth it but it will be the last time.

"most of" ...talking about people posting on the forums asking for "old school". That's a very specific group of people....not what you read into it. You, and your inability to read a full post that's only a few lines long seemed to have missed that.

It's clear that it's my perspective..... that you have no idea what I want in an mmo because nothing in that post implied I want any of it. You want to rant about that and you want me to have said it. The only person talking about what " we all" want is you. The only thing I said in that post is Henry Ford was right, you can't leave innovation up to people who don't even know what it is.

You really seem to have a bad habit of not reading all the way to the end and fabricating your universe to fit what you want it to mean.

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Originally posted by funyahns

Why shouldn't he talk about it? Do you just want to have a hug fest of people who only love the game to discuss it? You don't want dissenting views that may dissuade people from purchasing it? Sounds like you have an agenda yourself.

The problem with him is, he's putting words in peoples "mouths" so he can post his rants. It doesn't make for much of a discussion when it doesn't matter what you say, he's deciding what it means.

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Originally posted by DamonVile

Originally posted by funyahns

Why shouldn't he talk about it? Do you just want to have a hug fest of people who only love the game to discuss it? You don't want dissenting views that may dissuade people from purchasing it? Sounds like you have an agenda yourself.

The problem with him is, he's putting words in peoples "mouths" so he can post his rants. It doesn't make for much of a discussion when it doesn't matter what you say, he's deciding what it means.

That's correct, and this JJ82 is a throw away flaming account, the bulk of the 211 posts are ESO bash posts.

Gonada Dahung,over 20 years of mmorpg's and counting....Please Lord, let someone make a game that had all the awesomeness of UO, EQ and EVE...

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Originally posted by DamonVile

Originally posted by funyahns

Why shouldn't he talk about it? Do you just want to have a hug fest of people who only love the game to discuss it? You don't want dissenting views that may dissuade people from purchasing it? Sounds like you have an agenda yourself.

The problem with him is, he's putting words in peoples "mouths" so he can post his rants. It doesn't make for much of a discussion when it doesn't matter what you say, he's deciding what it means.

Funnyahns has a point. If you only want to read cosy little love fest comments about ESO then you are probably better off heading to the official temporary forums.

Seems you and others can't even take anything bad said about the game even if they are constructive comments. Straight away you accuse them of being trolls even if they have played the game. Funny that you claim their opinions don't matter but you still find time to reply to said posts.

If someone makes a thread with the title "eso is crap" then i can understand but don't come to the rescue like some ZeniMax knight in shining armour to every single thread/post that does not share your opinions on the game.

As for me, having played the game and being in beta, ESO is pretty average linear themepark MMO with a couple of twists IMO.

The IP will carry the game through more than how bad or good the actual game is IMO.

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For me the death of the subscription model means the death of the MMO. I like their explanation on why they went with the subscription model. I hate the fact that my gaming experience revolves around deciding what features to pay or not to pay for. I miss the old days where I spend a small monthly fee and just play.

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Originally posted by UtukuMoon

Originally posted by DamonVile

Originally posted by funyahns

Why shouldn't he talk about it? Do you just want to have a hug fest of people who only love the game to discuss it? You don't want dissenting views that may dissuade people from purchasing it? Sounds like you have an agenda yourself.

The problem with him is, he's putting words in peoples "mouths" so he can post his rants. It doesn't make for much of a discussion when it doesn't matter what you say, he's deciding what it means.

Funnyahns has a point. If you only want to read cosy little love fest comments about ESO then you are probably better off heading to the official temporary forums.

Seems you and others can't even take anything bad said about the game even if they are constructive comments. Straight away you accuse them of being trolls even if they have played the game. Funny that you claim their opinions don't matter but you still find time to reply to said posts.

If someone makes a thread with the title "eso is crap" then i can understand but don't come to the rescue like some ZeniMax knight in shining armour to every single thread/post that does not share your opinions on the game.

As for me, having played the game and being in beta, ESO is pretty average linear themepark MMO with a couple of twists IMO.

The IP will carry the game through more than how bad or good the actual game is IMO.

No he doesn't have a point, because ....

I don't care about eso, wont be playing it at launch and don't know enough about it to say if it's good or bad. Everything I know about eso comes from seeing it at pax..and there wasn't much to see at that point.

The post he quoted is from a guy who can't read and just wants to rant. He picked a comment at almost random and went off. The rant he made had nothing to do with the comment he quoted what-so-ever.Now there are follow up posts like yours that accuse me of being a fanboy to a game I don't really give a shit about and have never defended.

So yes the original poster in this quote does have an agenda and the people responding like you and funny are more victims of a fool, than making a point against a fanboy of the game.

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Originally posted by DamonVile

Originally posted by UtukuMoon

Originally posted by DamonVile

Originally posted by funyahns

Why shouldn't he talk about it? Do you just want to have a hug fest of people who only love the game to discuss it? You don't want dissenting views that may dissuade people from purchasing it? Sounds like you have an agenda yourself.

The problem with him is, he's putting words in peoples "mouths" so he can post his rants. It doesn't make for much of a discussion when it doesn't matter what you say, he's deciding what it means.

Funnyahns has a point. If you only want to read cosy little love fest comments about ESO then you are probably better off heading to the official temporary forums.

Seems you and others can't even take anything bad said about the game even if they are constructive comments. Straight away you accuse them of being trolls even if they have played the game. Funny that you claim their opinions don't matter but you still find time to reply to said posts.

If someone makes a thread with the title "eso is crap" then i can understand but don't come to the rescue like some ZeniMax knight in shining armour to every single thread/post that does not share your opinions on the game.

As for me, having played the game and being in beta, ESO is pretty average linear themepark MMO with a couple of twists IMO.

The IP will carry the game through more than how bad or good the actual game is IMO.

No he doesn't have a point, because ....

Yes he does have a point, your response to my post and his makes it pretty clear. And this "i'm not interested in ESO" is the oldest trick in the book.

You don't like the thread then you really don't have to partake in it, do you?

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They spent too much money making another average theme-park game, and thus it will be hard to recoup the investment.

And it has nothing to do with which business model they chose, instead they depend on the IP to sell boxes instead of creating deep gameplay mechanics and innovative systems. (Plus it is the company of "That's too hard....")

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From what I've seen so far, the game is average at best. But...it will not fail as hard as SWTOR, simply because of it server structure. It will not lose additional, ready to quit, players, due to empty servers, the way that SWTOR did.

And, it will also recoup some investment through console sales, no matter what.

The only way I see it flopping hard is if public media and players completely trash it after playing open beta (if they even go with open beta, that is).

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Originally posted by CelciusThat article is more about claiming the sub model is dead then using specific reasons as to why the game will be a big disaster.

This is the most salient point in the this entire thread. Blaming SWTORs failings on a sub is ridiculous.

Star Citizen anyone? Hundreds of thousands of players will line up to give you hundreds and thousands (totaling millions) for just the idea of a game they want. A great game could EASILY charge 30 or 40 bucks a month and be a huge success.

The death of the sub model is biggest heist by corporations in recent years. They make more money off fewer players and everyone screams about how great it is. With the downside that devs are forced to create content to attract whales and get the company paid every month rather than creating genuine content that is good for immersion and the game universe itself.

SWTOR failed for so many reason, and a sub wasn't a single one of them.

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They spent too much money making another average theme-park game, and thus it will be hard to recoup the investment.

And it has nothing to do with which business model they chose, instead they depend on the IP to sell boxes instead of creating deep gameplay mechanics and innovative systems. (Plus it is the company of "That's too hard....")

That is the problem.

Did you even read the article? ofcourse you didn't. They are just basing their predictions on viability of sub model in todays market.

It being an average themepark is your own opinion.

"The problem is that the hardcore folks always want the same thing: 'We want exactly what you gave us before, but it has to be completely different.'-Jesse Schell

"Online gamers are the most ludicrously entitled beings since Caligula made his horse a senator, and at least the horse never said anything stupid."-Luke McKinney

Why shouldn't he talk about it? Do you just want to have a hug fest of people who only love the game to discuss it? You don't want dissenting views that may dissuade people from purchasing it? Sounds like you have an agenda yourself.

The problem with him is, he's putting words in peoples "mouths" so he can post his rants. It doesn't make for much of a discussion when it doesn't matter what you say, he's deciding what it means.

Funnyahns has a point. If you only want to read cosy little love fest comments about ESO then you are probably better off heading to the official temporary forums.

Seems you and others can't even take anything bad said about the game even if they are constructive comments. Straight away you accuse them of being trolls even if they have played the game. Funny that you claim their opinions don't matter but you still find time to reply to said posts.

If someone makes a thread with the title "eso is crap" then i can understand but don't come to the rescue like some ZeniMax knight in shining armour to every single thread/post that does not share your opinions on the game.

As for me, having played the game and being in beta, ESO is pretty average linear themepark MMO with a couple of twists IMO.

The IP will carry the game through more than how bad or good the actual game is IMO.

No he doesn't have a point, because ....

Yes he does have a point, your response to my post and his makes it pretty clear. And this "i'm not interested in ESO" is the oldest trick in the book.

You don't like the thread then you really don't have to partake in it, do you?

Are you jj82's other account or something? I find it hard to believe there are two of you that share the same affliction that post one right after the other.

The oldest trick in the book was a laugh though. You know I do have a post history right ? It wouldn't be very hard to look at what I think of the game. I've posted it a few times. They're really brief.... I wont be playing at launch. If it fails I'll be glad I didn't pay for it. If it does well, I'll buy it when it's on sale.

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They spent too much money making another average theme-park game, and thus it will be hard to recoup the investment.

And it has nothing to do with which business model they chose, instead they depend on the IP to sell boxes instead of creating deep gameplay mechanics and innovative systems. (Plus it is the company of "That's too hard....")

That is the problem.

Did you even read the article? ofcourse you didn't. They are just basing their predictions on viability of sub model in todays market.

It being an average themepark is your own opinion.

Yes I did read the article, and to me it comes down to the fact that it is not that people won't pay for a sub, it is that they won't pay for a sub, in the current market for the same game, again, for the Nth time. Because they can play plenty of average games for "free". As such, it will be hard to recoup what they spent on it.

Were ESO some great, groundbreaking, super game, it would make back plenty of money and then some, regardless of the revenue model. But the isn't great or groundbreaking in any way, it is simply set in the ES world.

And that is not enough.

As for being average, I tried the beta, and the game is average. Most other people, if they are honest about it, will say the same thing.

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They spent too much money making another average theme-park game, and thus it will be hard to recoup the investment.

And it has nothing to do with which business model they chose, instead they depend on the IP to sell boxes instead of creating deep gameplay mechanics and innovative systems. (Plus it is the company of "That's too hard....")

That is the problem.

Did you even read the article? ofcourse you didn't. They are just basing their predictions on viability of sub model in todays market.

It being an average themepark is your own opinion.

Yes I did read the article, and to me it comes down to the fact that it is not that people won't pay for a sub, it is that they won't pay for a sub, in the current market for the same game, again, for the Nth time. Because they can play plenty of average games for "free". As such, it will be hard to recoup what they spent on it.

Were ESO some great, groundbreaking, super game, it would make back plenty of money and then some. But the isn't great or groundbreaking in any way, it is simply set in the ES world.

And that is not enough.

As for being average, I tried the beta, and the game is average. Most other people, if they are honest about it, will say the same thing.

Of course it was average to you. Since you were probably limited in what you could do. Unless you participated in the meat and potatoes of TESO, that being the warfare in Cyrodil then I highly doubt you would call it average.

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I'd like to see PS3 numbers for FF XIV:ARR before I can formulate an opinion on console owners' pockets.

However, the monthly sub has been a demanded request for quite some time now. In my opinion however it is an easier way out of designing a solid funding system like the one GW2 has. Normally people DO pay some money to support the games they like anyway. Personally I throw 5-10$ a month for F2P titles I enjoy, because that's as much as I find suitable; while friends of my throw somewhere between 5 and 50$ a month. I actually don't know any people who have played a F2P for more than 6 months but never paid a penny for it.

The article is clearly written by a random "forum"-level IQ person who posted on Forbes just because their contributor section is famously retarded. Basing an argument on random internet hearsay and an admitted lack of any serious information is sad and misguided. So I will not talk about it.

However, the themes are interesting:

Can a subscription MMO be successful? I think so, console games cost a TON more than PC games usually anyway. (Thank you Steam Holiday Sales!)

Can an Elder Scrolls game be an MMO? I'm split. I always liked TES because I could choose whichever path I wanted. The MMO space is arguably inappropriate for such endeavours. TES can be a great game to play with a small group of friends, but if you have to grind away against 9999999999 other kids for the chance to become the Archmage for a week or smthg, I would rather stick to solo play.

Will ESO have enough of a catch to become a major player? VERY much doubt it. There are already so many other good MMOs out there now...WoW, EVE, GW2, etc., all with decent fanbases + FF XIV + upcoming AAA MMOs: Wildstar, Destiny, etc. ... no game will probably go above 10m subscribers again in the near future. It might be reasonably successful, but like ALWAYS, it will depend on the long-term playability...NOT on IP.

AND you make such a panic because of this stupid person who did no research and didn't study the game both games ESO SWOTR before creating the post?

To be honest today I don't trust any one every one dose everything with a hidden purpose. And this is definitely a try to put a seed of insecurity that TES will flop in mind of masses. I even get message on Skype look what he thinks and .. see it works perfectly I mean some people believe and go to mmorpg.com and post about HOW HARD TES WILL FAIL

(Just for my own interest Zenimax can sue them for creating such a down rating topic about their product ?)

By the way go to forbes.com and read some comments which are better structured and based on facts not on "I must make a flop topic about TES"

They spent too much money making another average theme-park game, and thus it will be hard to recoup the investment.

And it has nothing to do with which business model they chose, instead they depend on the IP to sell boxes instead of creating deep gameplay mechanics and innovative systems. (Plus it is the company of "That's too hard....")

That is the problem.

Did you even read the article? ofcourse you didn't. They are just basing their predictions on viability of sub model in todays market.

It being an average themepark is your own opinion.

Yes I did read the article, and to me it comes down to the fact that it is not that people won't pay for a sub, it is that they won't pay for a sub, in the current market for the same game, again, for the Nth time. Because they can play plenty of average games for "free". As such, it will be hard to recoup what they spent on it.

Were ESO some great, groundbreaking, super game, it would make back plenty of money and then some. But the isn't great or groundbreaking in any way, it is simply set in the ES world.

And that is not enough.

As for being average, I tried the beta, and the game is average. Most other people, if they are honest about it, will say the same thing.

Of course it was average to you. Since you were probably limited in what you could do. Unless you participated in the meat and potatoes of TESO, that being the warfare in Cyrodil then I highly doubt you would call it average.

And that just highlights one of the crux's of why the game might not do so well, it has been proven repeatedly, in i don't know how many surveys in various games, that the number of PVE orientated players vs PVP orientated players is roughly about 80% PvE to 20% PvP, of which 'some' of the PvE orientated players are willing to participate, 'in a very casual' fashion in PvP, its simply because TESO is focusing so much on the PvP aspect that the game is perceived to be less than satisfactory, it may be that the PvE side of the game isn't quite as bad as it looks, but it still remains that they are trying to force PvP into a IP that does not have it, so people who buy the game on the strength of the IP, or who might have bought the game on the strength of the IP, are probably going to be dissapointed. I know for one that i certainly am, and as a long time Elder Scrolls fan, i am certainly not happy about how much focus there is on PvP. They should have made a solid PvE based game first, with PvP just being an option, not the focus of the entire game.

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The Forbes "article" is not a analysis of any kind and only a opinion piece offering no real empirical data to back it up,the only thing close is the author's own opinion on what happened with SW:TOR,which is the author's only real argument and a dubious one at that.

I personally do not think that TESO will be a great game but it might be a successful one financially.A lot of the people on the forums championing it are also the ones who only seem to care about games having "realistic" graphics and can't see beyond that one thing.I can appreciate many graphic styles and am not hung up on realism so it's not a selling point to me personally.

But I am willing to give the game a go and am willing to be surprised,it's just that my initial impressions on what I've been represented so far are meh.I say this as an old DAoC fan who was very disappointed with RvR as it was done in GW2.

This article however to me is completely unreliable as a basis to form an educated guess on TESO's future.