I couldn't have said it better, and this isn't the forum for me to say that my views are endorsed by any prophet, messianic figure, or mysterious incarnation of the almighty.

That reluctance may change when my daughter is a teenager, understanding that she won't be listening to me anyway; I kind of look forward to being a crazy old codger.

I know what you mean. I know people who endeavored to bring up their children without a particular religious bent, compared to my dad who went out of his way to thoroughly indoctrinate me to what he believed was right. Of course somewhere down the line, I had to make my own journey to see what I exactly believed and why. But in retrospect, it was comforting to have an idealogical base to explore from.

I haven't been a father yet(want to) but don't really know what that must be like, some little person looking to you to explain the universe in general. How are you handling raising your daughter when she asks to explain spiritual things?_________________"I would rather die fighting on my feet than live the rest of my life on my knees"-Emiliano Zapata

How are you handling raising your daughter when she asks to explain spiritual things?

She's three years old. We explore stories together, and spend as much time as we can walking around in the woods talking about endless what and nothing. I try to be as open as possible to little leadings of insight, and other than that, I try to keep my trap shut to let the radiance of a boundless mystery speak for itself.

Most of all, I guess, my wife and I try to create an environment of openness and attentiveness. I try to nourish her imagination, conscience, and creative insight - those are the faculties that have been most valuable to me. Also, I think she's a genius, and will likely surpass me.

Right now we are reading Baum's original WIZARD OF OZ [she's a little too young for LOTR]. Durring Advent, we read a few different versions of the nativity story every night [Matthew, Luke, and Al-Qu'ran], without any interpretation or theologizing. Her favorite scene was Gabriel's message to Maryam in the Lukan narrative: "Do not be affriad ... GOD is with you and he wants to bless you." When we tell Hansel & Gretel, she imagines herself in the role of Gretel, and when we told the nativity story, I think she imagined Maryam in her own image and situation. I is sometimes very illuminating to see how the stories speak to her.

I don't have the answer, to be certain, and I'm not fond of the commercial spiritual materials for children. It has been a very beautiful experiment.

My new story FOR THE DIDDLUM DAY is actually the fruit of an ongoing bedtime story featuring Johnny Appleseed._________________--
http://beardedbaby.net
--
"Take heed, dear Friends, to the promptings of love and truth in your hearts, which are the leadings of GOD." - London Yearly Meeting Advices, 1964

Last edited by John Stephens on Mon Jan 12, 2004 10:56 am; edited 1 time in total

I'd be interested in Scott's answer to this. I don't know if you're religious at all, but every time I read something by Sky, I think you're doing something right. Maybe the best thing we can do is immerse our children in love, wisdom, and beauty._________________--
http://beardedbaby.net
--
"Take heed, dear Friends, to the promptings of love and truth in your hearts, which are the leadings of GOD." - London Yearly Meeting Advices, 1964

I try to nourish her imagination, conscience, and creative insight - those are the faculties that have been most valuable to me.

I don't have the answer, to be certain, and I'm not fond of the commercial spiritual materials for children. It has been a very beautiful experiment.

It's great you guys are trying to nourish her mind instead of programming her like some vcr. When I was a youth pastor I remember dealing with so many kids that couldnt really think critically about eternal things to save their lives(literally save their lives). While my dad taught me so much about the bible, he always went out of his way to express how important it is to be true to yourself.

Are you going to read any of the Chronicles of Narnia to her?

(my personal favorites-did you know Tolkien told Lewis they wouldn't sell?)_________________"I would rather die fighting on my feet than live the rest of my life on my knees"-Emiliano Zapata

This is fascinating stuff, guys. Even though I don't have the time to really contribute something of substance at this point, I'm following this with interest._________________Good morning! That's a nice tnetennba.

The crummy thing about not being logged in is that you can't edit your post.

icepick wrote:

When I was a youth pastor I remember dealing with so many kids that couldnt really think critically about eternal things to save their lives(literally save their lives).

I just think that all of these stories have so much internal sustenance for the imagination and heart. The intellect can't really get to the real essence. It's been a real education reading them again as though for the first time.

icepick wrote:

Are you going to read any of the Chronicles of Narnia to her?

If I don't, her grandfather will. There is so much beautiful literature that I'm just beginning to discover as a parent; my own favorite is THE LITTLE PRINCE, and I can't wait to explore that one with her.

Greg Stephens wrote:

This is fascinating stuff, guys. Even though I don't have the time to really contribute something of substance at this point, I'm following this with interest.

Thanks! I was afraid that we were derailing the thread, and apparently there are some who agree.

Cyborg Caveman wrote:

The more I study religions the more I am convinced that man never worshipped anything but himself. - - Sir Richard Francis Burton (1821 -1890)

P.S. I agree that mankind has worshipped nothing more devoutly._________________--
http://beardedbaby.net
--
"Take heed, dear Friends, to the promptings of love and truth in your hearts, which are the leadings of GOD." - London Yearly Meeting Advices, 1964

Last edited by John Stephens on Mon Jan 12, 2004 2:49 pm; edited 2 times in total

Rather than respond to any one point in particular as far as the recent spiritual angle of this thread goes I'll let this quote speak for me...

The more I study religions the more I am convinced that man never worshipped anything but himself. - - Sir Richard Francis Burton (1821 -1890)

Rather than respond to any one point in this particular post, I'll just let this quote from a Kabuki comic by David Mack speak for me...

RIUCHI KAI: God is dead. - Neitzche
KABUKI: Neitzche ias dead. - GOD

Thanks!

Since I'm not sure if this is a joke or not, and I am one of the posters that seems to be often prone to misinterpretation, I just want to clarify I am not attempting to prove or disprove the existence of "God".

There is definitely a spiritual (though not religious) component to my being. However, wether or not there is a higher power has no bearing on wether or not man (despite his vociferous protestations) is in fact worshipping it or following its edicts. In fact, there is no substantiative proof as to what this higher powers edicts even are. All in all, our actions as a species tend to speak louder than our words.

It is the final proof of God's omnipotence that he need not exist in order to save us. - - Peter De Vries

Religion has been a part of human life ever since humans could be distinguished from other animals. It's intimately connected to the way we create symbols and do everything else in life. Atheism is a new experiment, and being interested in the pursuit of Truth, enlightenned atheist and theists mustn't be unwilling to discern Truth with attentiveness and humility.

It was a joke, in both the comic and in the context of our conversation.

GOD, I think, is just a concept - what it refers to, properly at least, is beyond the compass of human thought. The concept of GOD certainly exists, and has a great deal of influence over people's lives. The Reality is something mysterious and infinite._________________--
http://beardedbaby.net
--
"Take heed, dear Friends, to the promptings of love and truth in your hearts, which are the leadings of GOD." - London Yearly Meeting Advices, 1964

GOD, I think, is just a concept - what it refers to, properly at least, is beyond the compass of human thought. The concept of GOD certainly exists, and has a great deal of influence over people's lives. The Reality is something mysterious and infinite.

There are so many concepts that we can't wrap our intellect around alone. Just in my own dogma, the trinity, redemption and creation can only be understood so much on a purely intellectual basis.

But on the other hand, man is a complex creature. I get the impression that you also believe that there is part of us that is ancient and eternal. A spirit, a soul, whatever you want to call it has been formed inside a body and mind. While that spirit may relate to a more eternal and ancient part of the universe, it has to receive some of its enlightenment from what the mind gathers. The spirit and mind and body can be separated only for study, but not easily for practice-they all affect each other.

Enlightment of the spirit comes from meditation, prayer, and time spent alone, but it also comes from studying the important texts that grapple with truth also.

(sorry, didn't mean to go all Shirley Mcclaine-just got going on a cosmic wave and couldn't stop surfing that enlightened tube of bliss)_________________"I would rather die fighting on my feet than live the rest of my life on my knees"-Emiliano Zapata

But on the other hand, man is a complex creature. I get the impression that you also believe that there is part of us that is ancient and eternal. A spirit, a soul, whatever you want to call it has been formed inside a body and mind.

That's a fair impression. I would say that the body and mind are temporary expressions of the eternal principle, rather than the soul being a "part".

icepick wrote:

While that spirit may relate to a more eternal and ancient part of the universe, it has to receive some of its enlightenment from what the mind gathers. The spirit and mind and body can be separated only for study, but not easily for practice-they all affect each other.

You're right. The physical, mental, and spiritual may be different orders or levels of experience, but they work best when there is an alignment and symbiotic union between them.

icepick wrote:

Enlightment of the spirit comes from meditation, prayer, and time spent alone, but it also comes from studying the important texts that grapple with truth also.

Again, I agree. You only left one thing out, and this is something that may be obvious to most people, but it took me a while to figure it out: meditation and study nourish the inner life, but loving service - love as a verb - is what makes it all burst into bloom._________________--
http://beardedbaby.net
--
"Take heed, dear Friends, to the promptings of love and truth in your hearts, which are the leadings of GOD." - London Yearly Meeting Advices, 1964

You only left one thing out, and this is something that may be obvious to most people, but it took me a while to figure it out: meditation and study nourish the inner life, but loving service - love as a verb - is what makes it all burst into bloom.

I was just listening to a sermon on that subject the other day. The man said that we often hear that if you get into the bible you will get your act together. But if you never do what the bible says, you will never benefit from reading it. Of course that goes for whatever sacred text all of you choose to see as your own guide._________________"I would rather die fighting on my feet than live the rest of my life on my knees"-Emiliano Zapata

I was just listening to a sermon on that subject the other day. The man said that we often hear that if you get into the bible you will get your act together. But if you never do what the bible says, you will never benefit from reading it. Of course that goes for whatever sacred text all of you choose to see as your own guide.

That's what bothers me about the so-called "Ten Commandments Judge." If he really wants to make a meaningful testimony of the Ten Commandments, he should exemplify them._________________--
http://beardedbaby.net
--
"Take heed, dear Friends, to the promptings of love and truth in your hearts, which are the leadings of GOD." - London Yearly Meeting Advices, 1964

Don't have much to contribute here, but I'd like to tip my hat to those posting in both this and the other thread that has ended up on religion. No argument, just rational discussion and exchange of both ideas and facts. That's a hard thing to do with something most people (for better or worse) hold much dearer than their politics.

I'm afraid I may have to drop out before long to focus on school - not to mention my comics. If you don't see me don't think I'm not watching your every move in reverse Fibonacci sequence! Swing by the BEARDED BABY forum if you need to track me down! I'll try to reply when I can, and I'll likley reply when I shouldn't._________________--
http://beardedbaby.net
--
"Take heed, dear Friends, to the promptings of love and truth in your hearts, which are the leadings of GOD." - London Yearly Meeting Advices, 1964