Loading, lengthening, healing.

I believe hanging to be an essential ingredient for any PE routine, I was just indicating skepticism to “elongation theories,” it is the weakening of suspensory tissue that allows for erectile pressure to result in greater exposure of the internal shaft of the penis.

So these studies suggest that if you do not exceed 4% stretch on a fibre from it’s original length, that it should start to elongate and avoid the scar-tissue healing response. Exceeding 4% stretch will cause injury and the healing thru the scare-tissue response.

Is this saying that if I have a 10.00 BPFSL, that my PE loading Technique should cause a stretch of no more than 4%, or 10.80, probably safer to stay at or under 3% elongation. This approach applies to pumping and clamping, as the loading and stretch is internal from the pressure.

It also sounds like, once you get the tissues into a elongation phase, that it’s best to keep it there, thru repeated loadings over time until the elongation goals are met.

Perhaps, that turtling can be avoided completely if one does not overload in the first place.

That our long term goals, or adaptation, are the culmulative result of very many mechanical deformations

06-17-2008, 08:08 PM

optimalss

Corrections:

The 10.80 above should read 10.40, ‘scare’ should read ‘scar’

06-17-2008, 09:58 PM

marinera

Well, optimalss, that’s what I think:

this studies are related to tendons, not TA. This number (4%) that produces “minor damage”, could be a bit different in the specific case of penile tissue - maybe 2%, maybe 6%, who knows. The same for the 8% that cause a major injury to tendons.

Things are moreover complex because, when stretching penis, you are often stretching TA and ligs - similar tissues, but not necessarily identic tissue, if you agree.

So, I believe, we should focus more on abstract principles than on a rigid transfer of numbers from those studies to PE.

What I get from those readings is:

a) a too high tension is counterproductive, because you are causing a fast thougthening and litlle elongation;

b) repeating the stretching can give some additional benefit, but not after a given amount (and this amount is tension-dependent, too);I have to briefly say here that the connective tissue has three kind of reponse to stretching 1) an immediate, elastic reponse - the tissue elongate, but return in it’s original state. 2) a semi-delayed, viscoelastic reponse, caused by the re-arrangement of collagenous tissue; 3) a dealyed reponse, that is: repairing damages with fibroplasia (that is a kind of hyperplasia - new matter is born, just to say it simply).

Now, we have seen that, according to studies, the elastic reponse in a given session (or day) doesn’t augment after repeating the stress for X time; the same for viscoelastic reponse. So, let’s call this the “optimum work”. How about doing 2X time-work? You tell me. I guess: nothing better. How about doing 10X? I think everybody would say: it’s overwork (or overuse, if you like).

I think if one believe that doing 6 hours of stretching/hanging in a day will produce more plastic deformation is overestimating both elastic and viscoelastic reponse of connective tissue, and forgiving the whole repairing process - where this collagenous continuatively elongating is coming from?

We should see 6” growth in a matter of few weeks, also. I’ve never seen - did you?

c) the adaptation is a process, a reponse to systematical (or cyclic) stress: doing 12 h of stretching in one day doesn’t cause the same adaptive reponse than doing 15 minutes of strech/day, 4 days per week, for 12 weeks - likely, in the first case you’ll have an injury, with the second approach you’ll have an elongation.

On the long run, both low loads and high loads will cause more resistant tissue; this is also necessary for real permanent deformation - this is what we call “cementing”.

But with too high loads the strengthening will be faster and the elongation smaller.The same with medium loads, but over-repeated.

Heat can aid reducing this thougthening - AKA stalling gains.

If I have done any mistake, anybody is the welcome to show where - that’s why I started a thread, and not an article, this is intented to be a dialectic reasoning.

Last edited by marinera : 06-18-2008 at 12:27 AM.

06-17-2008, 11:09 PM

diesel220

Marinera I never said that there wasn’t big gainers on both sides what I said was that more guys will report injury’s from expansion work such as jelqing clamping and pumping then from hanging or extender work.

On top of this I believe as do lots of guys on here that more guys see gains faster through hang then with anything else other then newbie gains. You find tons of guys that have done manuals till they are blue in the face and still nothing. Then they come to hanging and thing start to happen as I did.

I did every thing from 100 jelqs per day to DLDs 700 jelqs per day used the jelq device just as they said nothing nothing nothing, pumping by it self nothing. Then I did extender work I gained, hang and extender work and guess what more gains real world gains opposed to studies that are on paper.

Things you can do in a lab in a test tube don’t always equal what we see in the real world. Take for example weight loss I can put to people on the same diet and training and one guy loss tons of weight and muscle up put another guy on the same exact training and diet and very little response.

This is what we see with all these lab reports everyone puts up, if nine out of ten people gain from hanging then that is what I’m going to go with sorry that just seem logical to me. If we really could just look at these studies then it should be easy for us to devise a one program fits type of PE there are tons of smart guys on here.one of you guys with the lab reports should have stumbled on the PE method that has given you gain after gain after gain this is what really proves a theory doesn’t it some thing you can repeat over and over and get the same out come.

So the question is have you gained from the start of your work out with your new theory, and if so how much can we expect each month, and have you gained over an inch with your theory of how growth works in the last 6 months. Because if you have a 9 inch-er from this please share your work out and I included will follow it to the t.

I don’t think that it is that easy if it were we would all be doing the same program. Some guys see growth from 5 lbs and some from 10 lbs but I think constant stretching or hanging over time will give you the best gains with the most reproducible gains over and over. As for rest days 1 or 2 days may not hurt but I don’t think they help either.

If you hit your 1.5 hrs per day with 6 to 10 lbs 7 days per week your on you way to gains if you miss a day I think you will be ok but taking a month of may set you back if you haven’t cemented your gains. What I mean by cemented so ti is not confused is when you gain .5 the first .25 of that .5 you gained is more like there to stay as I found out when I stopped PE because of life I lost some of my gains and found that constancy is the main part of PE no matter what way you decide to chose to get to your goals.

As for Modesto I don’t know what he was doing or for how long or at what weight.

Current stats march 2008= Nbel 6.75 Bpel 7.5 Eg 5.5

Goal by the end of next year Nbel 8.5 Eg 6.5

06-18-2008, 01:14 AM

marinera

Originally Posted by diesel220

……………………………………..On top of this I believe as do lots of guys on here that more guys see gains faster through hang then with anything else other then newbie gains.

…………………………………

I’ve read of people claiming big gains by hanging, but not so much photografic evidence that manual PEers have, on the long run, less gains than hangers have. But it’s not the point. The topic of this thread is illustrated in the mine #1 post.

Let’s say it an a more clear way: let’s suppose that there is such a proof that “non-stop PEers” have, on the long run, better results than “rest-PEers”; that theory is still wrong - you can’t use an illogical theory to explain anything. We should search for some unknown mechanism that could explain those gains.

The reason why that theory is illogic is, synthetically: if healing is not required to gain, why stretching again and again and again, supposing that you have to avoid “healing in a shortened state”? On the other hand, if healing is required, you can’t go stretching/hanging no-rest, because “healing” requires rest: if the need of healing is generated by stretching, stretching again will generate new need of healing - the total healing requirement is augmenting session after session, and after some time something negative wil happen.So, healing or not, a given amount of rest can’t be counter-productive.

Originally Posted by diesel220

If we really could just look at these studies then it should be easy for us to devise a one program fits type of PE there are tons of smart guys on here.one of you guys with the lab reports should have stumbled on the PE method that has given you gain after gain after gain this is what really proves a theory doesn’t it some thing you can repeat over and over and get the same out come.

Studies have shown that running will make your fat-pad smaller. Empirical evidence has shown the same thing. Obeses are augmenting more than runners. You see my point: never suppose that man is a rational being.

Originally Posted by diesel220

So the question is have you gained from the start of your work out with your new theory, and if so how much can we expect each month, and have you gained over an inch with your theory of how growth works in the last 6 months. Because if you have a 9 inch-er from this please share your work out and I included will follow it to the t.

First of : which is “my theory”?

Second: I don’t want to convince you of anything.

Third: if I would to convince you of something, I would not use the trick of showing “my 9 inch-er” for that goal. You should not believe “the bigger the smarter”.

Originally Posted by diesel220

As for Modesto I don’t know what he was doing or for how long or at what weight.

Do a search about. It’s an interesting story. At least, to me it was.

Last edited by marinera : 06-18-2008 at 09:49 AM.

06-18-2008, 04:41 AM

Dick Builder

Originally Posted by marinera

Ok, I see we have to go back to basic things:

Ok, let’s go way, way back to your original premise

Originally Posted by marinera

The theory I’m referring to says: “You have to stretch/hang for many hours a day, avoiding rest, because rest will let your connective tissue healing in a shortened (or not elongated) state. Adversely, loading your penis hour after hour, day after day, your penis will become weaker, so it would be easily stretched, so it would heal in a elongated state”.

First off, hanging/stretching two to four hours a day is in no way shape or form ‘avoiding rest’. There are twenty four hours in a day. Secondly, in the case of hanging, hanging everyday is to establish daily consistency in your routine and to facilitate managing fatigue. Like I said in an earlier post, for me, every day I take off it takes another two to again reach fatigue.

Originally Posted by marinera

If I’m doing any mistake resuming that theory, feel free to correct me.

You’ve been corrected.

Originally Posted by marinera

Those who are supposing that definitive elongation happens only by collagen rearrangement, without production of new cells, are leaving out a “piece” of the adaptation to stress of connective tissue.

Defenders of the “continuative work” thesis started supposing that healing happens while loading - at the same time. When this thesis has shown to be hard to defend, they came supposing that healing is not needed at all.But this is even harder.

Like I said in an earlier post, utilizing an extender after hanging is for setting the elongation while cooling. ‘Healing in the extended state’ is a bit of a misnomer.

Originally Posted by marinera

We have seen that repeating the stretch many times has no real more benefits: after the first times, elongation does not augment; cumulative microtrauma are augmenting. Micro-tears, healing, fibroplasia, definitive elongation on the long run.

I’d love to respond to this, however, I have no idea what you’re saying.

I’m sorry, my mistake. It seems that you’re opposed to all forms of PE other than your own?

Originally Posted by marinera

Micro-tears, that you are supposing are caused by repeated strethcing/hanging, call for a repairing process: yuo can call it “healing phase”, “repairing phase” or whatever else.You can suppose that that phase requires 6 h, 12 h, 48 h or whatever you think is more likely.Things doesn’t changes.Connective tissue is living tissue. Long-term alterations are a result of adaptation, not of simple mechanic deformations.

Well, I guess “long term alterations” couldn’t possibly be the result of “adaptation” from “mechanical deformations”. Nope, that would be crazy.

I’d love to go on, and on, and on, going around and around and around, ad infinitum with you. However, doing so only leads me to a headache and tends to bring out the smart ass in me.

Take care my friend; I need a break for a while.

Then (4.5 nbpel x 4.75 mseg)

Now (5.625 nbpel, x 5.25 mseg)

06-18-2008, 10:03 AM

marinera

Originally Posted by Dick Builder

………………………I’d love to respond to this, however, I have no idea what you’re saying.

This was quite clear.

Originally Posted by Dick Builder

I’d love to go on, and on, and on, going around and around and around, ad infinitum with you. However, doing so only leads me to a headache and tends to bring out the smart ass in me.

I agree but funny none the less maybe it will get back on track, I have to say this is my favorite thread for the last week keeps me coming back and I do think both sides have sparked some thought on this issue. Although it will confuse the hell lout of the new guys.

Now, let’s see some anecdots, to see how they are consistent with the “guilty” theory :

Originally Posted by dlm4

Well, I have been PEing now for about 7 months or so. I gained about a half an inch the first two months doing the newbie. I use heat from a heating pad for my warm ups. After the first two months I stopped gaining. I ordered a heavy vac ……… I used it for about a month and gained a quarter of an inch in flaccid length, but then those gains stopped too. I never did see an increase in erect gains from this. I was using the vac as an ADS but loading it with more weight, about 5 to 6 pounds, up to 12 hours a day, about 5 days a week. At the same time doing the newbie. I ended up taking a month and a half decon break due to injury.

I have now been back at it for about three months. During my decon I did lose a quarter of an inch, but quickly gained that back the first month. However, I then stopped gaining. I cant seem to get past this half inch mark. ……..As I said before I load up the weight on the ADS from about 5 to 6 pounds, so I’m not using it as a typical ADS with only one or two pounds. I now use my ADS about 5 days a week, for an average of about 8 hours a day. I do notice that when I take days off, my dick wants to shrink a bit. Does this mean that I am over training?

We note that our friend had 1/2” gains in 2 months doing the newbie routine. After that, he did 4 months (1 month , stop cause injury, 3 months straight) of a kind of “no - rest - allowed” routine. Gains stopped. He notice that, when taking days-off, penis tends to shrink. How this is consitent with what we have said?

I’d say :

a) the “make it heal - don’t do continuative high-load work” routine gave him gains. So, it’s not true that when resting the penis will “heal in a shortened state”;

b) the “do non-stop-work or it will shortens” routine gave him no EL gains, bu FL gains : elastic reponse was worse due to overwork;

c) he noticed that the penis would shrink when taking rest-days; this is interesting because shows us two things : 1) the reason why many would think “I don’t have to rest!” 2) the fact that, as posted before, one could exchange effects of elastic reponse as effects of plastic deformation happening.

d) he had no EL gains : why? He was doing also stretching, as was doing before passing to “non-stop” routine.It seem convalidate that too much work would strengthening tissues, with less potential future gains.

Last edited by marinera : 06-18-2008 at 11:46 PM.

06-19-2008, 12:06 AM

diesel220

He was doing the newbie routine as well pick one type of method of enlargement and stick with that if you try to do everything you will injure your self. Anytime I have tried putting jelqing in to my workout I get a negative PI.

Current stats march 2008= Nbel 6.75 Bpel 7.5 Eg 5.5

Goal by the end of next year Nbel 8.5 Eg 6.5

06-19-2008, 02:32 AM

Dicko7X5

Originally Posted by marinera

What is different is this: you think that, repeating sets of hanging/stretching enhance the temporarily deformability of TA, and that there is a proportionate adaptations to this elastic elongation.

Both my personal experience and readings suggests it’s not the case. It seem that, one has done X time of stretching/hanging (most studies says 4-5x30”“), no better elastic reponse is reached, no faster plastic adaptation is going on.

Yes, I believe in the “low load, long duration” principle. But I’m having trouble understanding what you mean. Do you mean that, for example, 1 hour of stretching gives the same amount of elastic gains as 2 hours stretching?