There is no way to checkmate a christian, it can't be done. they always find a way to get out of thinking their king is cornered. I don't know what it is, most of them are smart enough to see the logical fallacies in their beliefs, but they just downright deny how their beliefs really are.

I think the cause you’re looking for is called “Brainwashing”. And it’s been proven to be extremely effective. Evidence indicates higher education has no effect on it either. Once the God virus infects a brain it becomes almost impossible to extract it. And it is contagious too.

There is no way to checkmate a christian, it can't be done. they always find a way to get out of thinking their king is cornered. I don't know what it is, most of them are smart enough to see the logical fallacies in their beliefs, but they just downright deny how their beliefs really are.

Deeply held beliefs are , well ... deeply held. Emotional attachment keeps them that way. A Christian told me (when I too was a Christian) a good reply to someone trying to hit me with an anti-Christian argument is, "That's nice, but I choose to believe in Jesus." So, just summarily dismiss whatever a non-Christian was trying to hit me with, regardless of whether it made sense. I think the key is not to allow yourself to even consider it...because critical thought Satan will get into your mind like that.

It's interesting that my Christian friend had to consciously suppress critical thought to give me his advice about supressing critical thought. I guess it gets easier with practice.

I had some trouble being a Christian as it was antithetical to common sense , which was how I was raised. But I still managed to allow myself to be programmed somewhat.

There is no way to checkmate a christian, it can't be done. they always find a way to get out of thinking their king is cornered. I don't know what it is, most of them are smart enough to see the logical fallacies in their beliefs, but they just downright deny how their beliefs really are.

More to the point, from where I'm standing, there's no way for Christians to checkmate me. They can't find a way to get me thinking their king is mine. I'm mostly smart enough to see the logical fallacies in their beliefs, and I just assert the the reality of how their beliefs are.

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I'd like to add that it may not be the best goal if your desire is to "checkmate" any believer of a religion. The bigger picture might be one trying to prove people wrong, no matter the topic.

If one does desire such things, then I hope the person can ask themselves why they desire to prove Christians or believers of religion wrong. Are you in your attempt being truly altruistic? Or maybe your motivations are based on your own stance, rather than saving them from theirs.

We all want the truth I suspect. Personally, I do believe that in the end, all we have left is the truth, and I find that quite acceptable.

There is no way to checkmate a christian, it can't be done. they always find a way to get out of thinking their king is cornered. I don't know what it is, most of them are smart enough to see the logical fallacies in their beliefs, but they just downright deny how their beliefs really are.

I read something recently which touched on this general topic and I've lost the link

But something like: the world is really complex, and we generally can achieve only a fairly limited understanding of a great many things with the info available to us. So, it's almost always possible for intelligent people to find ways to manipulate their working theories of the world to account for inconvenient facts while preserving the core of their beliefs. It's a form of rationalization. We probably all do it to some extent: it's easier to try to tweak our views than to have to reject our entire framework wholesale. With religious beliefs being so central to most people, there's a lot of incentive to do that. A lot of Calvinist theology and the machinations people come up with to make it all seem coherent always reminds me of that.

I wonder, for people who deconvert slowly (most of us?) I wonder if there is still that a-ha moment when you finally really decide to cease believing. Even when it's gradual there's still like an inflection point, and I wonder if that is because of that difficulty with finally rejecting an entire paradigm of thinking, so to speak.

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I embraced nontheism because, it seems to me as aspoused by David Boulton in 'Godless for God's sake', that this allows me to define my atheism whilst accepting that others have their gods - which, of course, I believe they have created from their own imaginations (and that is not meant to be a critical statement). So I don't have to crusade for atheism.

However, some time ago, in the frustration that I felt because my old fundmentalist friends had grown distant, I took time to write down my journey from faith to nontheism. It was therapeutic. I decided not to send it to my friends but to mention in my Christmas round-robin letter that I had written it and that it is available to anyone. How many responded? None. I did the same next year and a couple responded. But that's that - no engagement with me, rather 'I am praying for you to return to the Lord. I know my belief is correct' from one old friend. Is he brainwashed? I suspect so, otherwise surely he would want to know more of my story.

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Remember, there are plenty of times in verse where the believers are encouraged not to read the writings of other religions ("Touch not the unclean thing and I will receive you"). Some have come to think to do so is a sin and won't even let them in their homes, as if those other books would somehow bring down the wrath of their god on their house and family.

Silly pagan fears die hard and certain men understood that and used that knowledge to play the masses.

Remember, there are plenty of times in verse where the believers are encouraged not to read the writings of other religions....

It's more broad than that. Many Christian sects interpret other passages in the Bible to mean that rational thinking, skepticism and curiosity are to be shunned and avoided, and the related religious indoctrination and peer pressure promote that interpretation to their as of yet not infected children and already infected members.

Even though the seed you planted might be ignored or rejected, you never know if it will eventually begin to take root. That was true in my life. Some of the "bad" seeds that were thrown at me took 20 years and a combination of life experiences to start taking root. What I originally considered to be bad seeds, turned out to be good seeds. I finally admitted I had been checkmated years earlier. I don't suggest being offensive with it, but keep on dropping a few seeds along the way.

I decided not to send it to my friends but to mention in my Christmas round-robin letter that I had written it and that it is available to anyone. How many responded? None. I did the same next year and a couple responded. But that's that - no engagement with me, rather 'I am praying for you to return to the Lord. I know my belief is correct' from one old friend. Is he brainwashed? I suspect so, otherwise surely he would want to know more of my story.

I didn't offer my story through a Christmas letter, but have in other ways. In over 10 years have only had 2 takers. One I haven't heard from in 9 years. The other has had his for 2 years and I finally heard from him a few days ago wanting to continue our conversation. I'm anxious to see where it goes.

I didn't offer my story through a Christmas letter, but have in other ways. In over 10 years have only had 2 takers. One I haven't heard from in 9 years. The other has had his for 2 years and I finally heard from him a few days ago wanting to continue our conversation. I'm anxious to see where it goes.

All the best with that.

I've just remembered that in my youth I heard it stated that 'They are filling the pulpits with degrees and by degrees they are emptying the churches'. Needless to say this was the opinion of people who were 'charismatic' without having academic qualifications. And fundamenalist - yep, we don't need anything more than the Bible.

I've just remembered that in my youth I heard it stated that 'They are filling the pulpits with degrees and by degrees they are emptying the churches'. Needless to say this was the opinion of people who were 'charismatic' without having academic qualifications. And fundamenalist - yep, we don't need anything more than the Bible.

Anybody else heard that?

Yes, and I agree with you. Not all Seminary or institutions are equal. Generally, Pentecostals and Charismatics are very uneducated and appeal to emotionalism. Fundamentalist believe they are Neo and receive some type of matrix download of everything needed to know by simply parroting what Scripture says. They can be heard saying I am taught by the Holy Spirit. They haven't any reservations about blaming the Holy Spirit for horrible interpretation.

Yes, and I agree with you. Not all Seminary or institutions are equal. Generally, Pentecostals and Charismatics are very uneducated and appeal to emotionalism. Fundamentalist believe they are Neo and receive some type of matrix download of everything needed to know by simply parroting what Scripture says. They can be heard saying I am taught by the Holy Spirit. They haven't any reservations about blaming the Holy Spirit for horrible interpretation.

But the reformed, the reformed such as yourself are the bees knees yes? You have the true revelation?

Like I've said before - there is no way to distinguish, out of all these groups, who has the truth. My father thinks he has it so you can add him to the line up of people like yourself proclaiming truth.

Serious question: What makes you special? Why should anyone here pay any more attention to what you say over and above what any other Christian says?

I will create a topic in the Lion's Den entitled "What Makes @Christforums Special?" for responses, proselytizing, explanations, etc. People who may be in the early ages of deconverting don't need to see any of Christforums' (or any other really true believer's--doctrinally sound or not) posts in this subforum. When our people, those for whom this website was created, are ready, they'll venture into the Lion's Den. In the meantime, they can rant about believers knowing that believers won't be allowed to tell them they're wrong, misguided, doctrinally unsound, or anything else.

I will create a topic in the Lion's Den entitled "What Makes @Christforums Special?" for responses, proselytizing, explanations, etc. People who may be in the early ages of deconverting don't need to see any of Christforums' (or any other really true believer's--doctrinally sound or not) posts in this subforum. When our people, those for whom this website was created, are ready, they'll venture into the Lion's Den. In the meantime, they can rant about believers knowing that believers won't be allowed to tell them they're wrong, misguided, doctrinally unsound, or anything else.

Zeus has a large stash of lightning bolts. They are made especially for him by the blacksmith Hephaestus -- noone besides Zeus gets them. Have you seen lightning before? What, you've seen it often? Well, that's proof that Zeus exists! Think about that -- there's real, visible evidence for Zeus that is seen quite often!

Now Yahweh / Jehovah... what does he do that you can see every day? You say he makes the flowers bloom in Spring? No, that's Persephone. Springtime is evidence of Persephone. Try again!

Even though the seed you planted might be ignored or rejected, you never know if it will eventually begin to take root. That was true in my life. Some of the "bad" seeds that were thrown at me took 20 years and a combination of life experiences to start taking root. What I originally considered to be bad seeds, turned out to be good seeds. I finally admitted I had been checkmated years earlier. I don't suggest being offensive with it, but keep on dropping a few seeds along the way.

Ah! The parable of the sower! One of the few semi-true things in the New Testament. Right along with "Ye shall know the truth and the truth shall make you free".

I didn't offer my story through a Christmas letter, but have in other ways. In over 10 years have only had 2 takers. One I haven't heard from in 9 years. The other has had his for 2 years and I finally heard from him a few days ago wanting to continue our conversation. I'm anxious to see where it goes.

The conversation continued. It was one more effort on his part to bombard me with scripture and the same old worn out arguments from the days of our childhood. The seed was turned into poop.