So Curt Schilling officially retired earlier this week. Is he a Hall of Famer in your mind, or not?

The stats:

216 wins (light for a HOFer, it's like 80th all-time)
146 losses
.596 Winning Percentage
No Cy Young Awards. Came in 2nd 3 times, and 4th once.
6 All Star Appearances
3.47 ERA
ERA +/- is a whopping +127
3116 strikeouts (15th all time)
11-2 record in playoffs with a 2.23 ERA in 19 starts
3 World Series rings
20 game winner 3 times
The Bloody Sock!
An ungodly K/BB ratio.

It's a close call. The stats alone point to "no", but I keep coming back to two things -- first that he isn't tainted by steroids, and second that there are damn few pitchers over the last 15 years that someone would want starting Game 7 of a World Series over Schilling.

Sully

03-25-2009, 10:14 AM

If we include public relations, he's a unanimous HOFer.

Baseball-wise, probably.

Katipan

03-25-2009, 10:14 AM

Yes but I'm biased from his time in Arizona.

seclark

03-25-2009, 10:19 AM

yes
sec

doomy3

03-25-2009, 10:22 AM

Not before Blyleven. He can't get in and trumps just about all of Schilling's stats.

penchief

03-25-2009, 10:26 AM

Not before Blyleven. He can't get in and trumps just about all of Schilling's stats.

Agreed. I tend to think that Mussina deserves a look before Schilling, as well. Mussina played in the toughest division in baseball his entire career and racked up 280 wins. He always seemed to get the best of Pedro Martinez when they went head to head.

Delano

03-25-2009, 10:26 AM

Not before Blyleven. He can't get in and trumps just about all of Schilling's stats.

They both need in.

I can not believe Blyleven has not made it yet.

DaKCMan AP

03-25-2009, 10:29 AM

DaKCMan AP says yes, and that's all that really matters.

sedated

03-25-2009, 10:32 AM

I've never bought all the stat freaks when it comes to baseball. They are the same people who give the Cy Young to the pitcher with the most wins, even though wins are more a product of the team than the pitcher, and is a less significant indicator than the pitcher’s individual numbers (ERA, K/BB, hits, etc).

doomy3

03-25-2009, 10:33 AM

I've never bought all the stat freaks when it comes to baseball. They are the same people who give the Cy Young to the pitcher with the most wins, even though wins are more a product of the team than the pitcher, and is a less significant indicator than the pitcherís individual numbers (ERA, K/BB, hits, etc).

Those "individual numbers" are stats. All of it is weighed in IMO.

Katipan

03-25-2009, 10:34 AM

They are the same people who give the Cy Young to the pitcher with the most wins, even though wins are more a product of the team than the pitcher, and is a less significant indicator than the pitcher’s individual numbers (ERA, K/BB, hits, etc).

I think it's the whole "if you can STILL get labeled the win even after having 8+ other guys in your koolaid"... thing.

sedated

03-25-2009, 10:35 AM

Mussina played in the toughest division in baseball his entire career and racked up 280 wins.

he also played on the team that won the most, regardless of division. it makes sense he has a lot of wins.

RJ

03-25-2009, 10:37 AM

No way.

Schilling just doesn't have the stats, for most of his career he was a good but not great pitcher. I like the guy, but he's no HOF'er.

doomy3

03-25-2009, 10:38 AM

he also played on the team that won the most, regardless of division. it makes sense he has a lot of wins.

He played 10 seasons with BALTIMORE and 8 seasons with the Yankees.

RJ

03-25-2009, 10:38 AM

he also played on the team that won the most, regardless of division. it makes sense he has a lot of wins.

They were under .500 5 of the years he was with them, and over .500 the other 5 years.

They were basically an average team. They weren't the Devil Rays for Chrissakes.

RJ

03-25-2009, 10:58 AM

They were under .500 5 of the years he was with them, and over .500 the other 5 years.

They were basically an average team. They weren't the Devil Rays for Chrissakes.

Yeah, ok.....but as an Orioles fan it sure felt like it....still does. :(

The O's never should have dealt Schilling, but if I had to pick between him and Mussina I'd take Mussina.

Amnorix

03-25-2009, 11:04 AM

Yeah, ok.....but as an Orioles fan it sure felt like it....still does. :(

The O's never should have dealt Schilling, but if I had to pick between him and Mussina I'd take Mussina.

For an entire career, or for Game 7 of a World Series?

BTW, the same years that were basically .500 for Mussina's Orioles weren't nearly so good for Schilling's Phillies. If you want to adjust their candidacy for the suckiness of the team around them, then Schilling gets a bigger adjustment than Mussina:

Yeah, ok.....but as an Orioles fan it sure felt like it....still does. :(

The O's never should have dealt Schilling, but if I had to pick between him and Mussina I'd take Mussina.

Also....right, because you were in the AL East. One year you were 4 games below .500, yet in 4th in teh 5 team AL East, and we were all speedbumps for the ridiculous Yankees. You were 35 games out of first.

3116 strikeouts (15th all time)
11-2 record in playoffs with a 2.23 ERA in 19 starts
3 World Series rings
20 game winner 3 times
The Bloody Sock!
An ungodly K/BB ratio.

RJ

03-25-2009, 11:13 AM

[QUOTE=Amnorix;5608937]For an entire career, or for Game 7 of a World Series?

For the career, Mussina.

For the game 7 I'd say it's a tossup between the younger Mussina and the older Schilling. Schill was certainly the more dominant pitcher in terms of being a power arm but Mussina always had such beautiful control. Maybe not Maddux type control, but still excellent.

Schilling's post-season numbers are where he leaves his mark on the game.

11-2, 2.23 ERA, K/BB 120/25, WHIP 0.97

Schilling has the best K/BB ratio of all time among guys with a minimum of 1,000 IP / 100 decisions.

Only Blyleven has retired with more strikeouts and has not made into the HoF.

kcfanXIII

03-25-2009, 05:35 PM

my two best schiling memories:

1. who could forget the bloody sock?
2. being a part of the team that knocked the yankees off in the 2001 world series.

based on these two memories, yes.

Jethopper

03-25-2009, 05:48 PM

A pitcher with no sy youngs = A pitcher with no entry into the hall of fame (9 times out of 10).

wild1

03-25-2009, 05:51 PM

He doesn't really have the numbers, and I agree with the good but not great argument about his career as measured by his peers. But the 3 rings will get him a lot of mileage, and it's certainly debatable whether those teams would have won the rings without him.

If he gets in, it's a later ballot... in my opinion

MIAdragon

03-25-2009, 05:53 PM

A pitcher with no sy youngs = A pitcher with no entry into the hall of fame (9 times out of 10).

WTF is a "sy young"?

Nolan Ryan has zero Cy Young's.

MIAdragon

03-25-2009, 05:54 PM

Strikeouts- 3116 15Th all-time

No doubt he gets in.

'Hamas' Jenkins

03-25-2009, 05:56 PM

It's close, but no.

Good big game pitcher, elite attention whore, but not a HOF caliber arm.

wild1

03-25-2009, 05:56 PM

3000 strikeouts is his case, really, outside the world series

If this guy had played for Milwaukee and Texas, no way would this conversation be happening.

Katipan

03-25-2009, 06:04 PM

He doesn't really have the numbers, and I agree with the good but not great argument about his career as measured by his peers. But the 3 rings will get him a lot of mileage, and it's certainly debatable whether those teams would have won the rings without him.

If he gets in, it's a later ballot... in my opinion

Arizona certainly rode it's two horses hard in 01. Randy never got us to a World Series with his Cy Youngs. Had no problem doing it with his Curt Schilling.

Miles

03-25-2009, 06:07 PM

He is pretty close with his postseason performances, his first two seasons with ARI and first season with BOS, but his win/loss record will ultimately keep him out.

MIAdragon

03-25-2009, 06:13 PM

He is pretty close with his postseason performances, his first two seasons with ARI and first season with BOS, but his win/loss record will ultimately keep him out.

IMO win/loss stats is a piss poor measurement. Can the pitcher control what his team does in the field or at the dish?

Jethopper

03-25-2009, 06:24 PM

WTF is a "sy young"?

Nolan Ryan has zero Cy Young's.

Hence the 9 out of 10.

MIAdragon

03-25-2009, 06:27 PM

Hence the 9 out of 10.

he finished second in Cy Young voting three times I dont see that holding him back

Miles

03-25-2009, 06:28 PM

IMO win/loss stats is a piss poor measurement. Can the pitcher control what his team does in the field or at the dish?

Yeah I agree that its a shitty measurement but one that sportswriters seem to constantly bring up when evaluating a player.

kcxiv

03-25-2009, 06:37 PM

If you count his post season play then absolutely. I lvoed watching hiim pitch in his prime, he was a bad ass. He definately deserves to be in there. If you needed someone to pitch in a big game, there wasnt many better then him for that kind of pressure.

While he only has a little over 200 wins, he was fairly consistant. I hope he makes it to Cooperstown, he deserves it.

Tiger's Fan

03-25-2009, 06:42 PM

No way. He always ran his mouth about the roids, while posting better numbers once he got past the age of 30. Besides not being remotely close numbers wise, I bet he was a roided up hypocrite.

kcxiv

03-25-2009, 06:44 PM

[QUOTE=Buster Hymen;5610425]No way. He always ran his mouth about the roids, while posting better numbers once he got past the age of 30. Besides not being remotely close numbers wise, I bet he was a roided up hypocrite.[/Qoute] I seriously doubt he roided up. He lost his fast ball a few years back. He had to adjust his pitching style and he still had good years.

Say what you want about Curt, Yes he's is outspoken and sometimes should just shut up, but he's a straight shooter. Plus he's a video gamer as well. He's ok in my book. lol

Schilling's post-season numbers are where he leaves his mark on the game.

11-2, 2.23 ERA, K/BB 120/25, WHIP 0.97

Schilling has the best K/BB ratio of all time among guys with a minimum of 1,000 IP / 100 decisions.

Only Blyleven has retired with more strikeouts and has not made into the HoF.

Like I said, he doesn't have the stats.

But he'll get in, the media loves him.

RJ

03-25-2009, 08:19 PM

Strikeouts- 3116 15Th all-time

No doubt he gets in.

Is Jim Thome a HOF'er?

MIAdragon

03-25-2009, 08:37 PM

Is Jim Thome a HOF'er?

I donít think so, nor do I think they are even close in their respective categories either.

'Hamas' Jenkins

03-25-2009, 08:44 PM

I donít think so, nor do I think they are even close in their respective categories either.

Thome is 14th in career homers, Schilling is 15th in strikeouts and 80th in wins.

JASONSAUTO

03-25-2009, 08:48 PM

Thome is 14th in career homers, Schilling is 15th in strikeouts and 80th in wins.

schill will get hurt by the win total. IMO and yes blyleven should get in 1st

MIAdragon

03-25-2009, 09:01 PM

Thome is 14th in career homers, Schilling is 15th in strikeouts and 80th in wins.

Thome is 230th in all-time career hits.

Third on the all-time strikeout list.

A career .229 post season batting average.

I dont see the comparison.

MIAdragon

03-25-2009, 09:02 PM

schill will get hurt by the win total. IMO and yes Blyleven should get in 1st

Blyleven will get in, if he wasnít such a dickbag he would already be in.

Simply Red

03-25-2009, 09:04 PM

Strikeouts- 3116 15Th all-time

No doubt he gets in.

yeah, no question, he was always tough to hit, he's a winner, imb.

MahiMike

03-25-2009, 09:08 PM

Of course. Not even a debate.

JASONSAUTO

03-25-2009, 09:19 PM

Blyleven will get in, if he wasnít such a dickbag he would already be in.

i agree, but that shouldnt matter IMO

RJ

03-25-2009, 09:29 PM

I donít think so, nor do I think they are even close in their respective categories either.

Comparing the two I'd give the edge to Schilling, but not by too much.

Thome is to HR's as Schilling is to K's, and Thome will move up the list this season. Thome also has always been an OBP monster. His postseason avg sucks but his HR's and RBI are strong.

Neither, IMO, are HOF worthy, but they've both been very good players.

And both will probably go in.

Braincase

03-25-2009, 09:42 PM

If you were to take away all of Roger Clemens' Cy Youngs and give 'em to a pitcher that wasn't tainted by reports of steroid use, how many of them would go to Schill? That, and he's started a company to create his own online role-playing game.

I'd vote him and his sock in.

RJ

03-25-2009, 10:28 PM

Came across this tonight.

Interesting piece about a great player who never made the HOF. The basic idea is that, for recognition purposes, it's better to be great at a couple of things than good at many things.