seriously i agree that every1 should have their opinion. satanist, becuase what you have just come out with is rather funny. im not being nasty... but
my father is a mason and my grandfather was a mason and they DID NOT worship the devil.... and for rich business like persons. that is laughable
because we live in a counsil house! ok just expersing my opinion cheers x oni x x

seriously i agree that every1 should have their opinion. satanist, becuase what you have just come out with is rather funny. im not being
nasty... but my father is a mason and my grandfather was a mason and they DID NOT worship the devil.... and for rich business like persons. that is
laughable because we live in a counsil house! ok just expersing my opinion cheers x oni x x

But there have been individuals involved with both the use of occult magick and Freemasonry.

This cannot be denied.

And ritual... That couldn't possibly have anything to do with the spiRITUAL could it now? So if Freemasons wish to stop the accusations that secrets
are being kept from them and US, and that they are a group with Spiritual teachings, they should just drop all the Ritual.

Seems like a nice simple way to clean up the mess? Of course, they could replace the ritual, no sense in keeping them from doing that!

Originally posted by akilles
But there have been individuals involved with both the use of occult magick and Freemasonry.

Based on that logic....I know Presbyterians who belong to the Rotary Club. Does that make the Rotary Club "Presbyterian" I'm an Episcopalian
myself and a member of the Missouri Association of Realtors. Does that make the MAR "Episcopalian" or does that mean every Episcopalian in
Missouri is a "Realtor"?

C'mon Akilles ....you're smarter than that. We've established that there were (and are) bad Masons. There have been some who CLAIMED to BE
Masons who were and are bad....doesn't make Masonry ITSELF bad.

So if Freemasons wish to stop the accusations that secrets are being kept from them and US, and that they are a group with Spiritual teachings, they
should just drop all the Ritual.

...and become what....NOTHING. Masonry's teachings come through the ritual....the experience of ritual is the very essence of Masonry. Without it,
we'd be.....the Rotary Club or Lions Club (nothing wrong with that...I'm a Lion myself) but those are not fraternal societies. The ritual is a
very essential part of Masonry, to drop it would be to stop being Masons.

Seems like a nice simple way to clean up the mess? Of course, they could replace the ritual, no sense in keeping them from doing that!

Interesting statement. Funny thing is even though several of us (and several Masons on web-sites and other forms of media) try to get the truth
about Masonry out to the general public...when it all comes down to it, our rituals are OURS and OURS ALONE and really not any one else's
concern...so we're not likely to "clean up the mess" as you put it.

I've said it before but it's worth repeating. Masonry isn't for every man....and certainly we don't WANT every man to be a Mason.

Those who firmly believe it's evil, or wrong, or a religion or satanic or "luciferian" (whatever that made-up word means) are chief amongst those
that we do not want.

Quote: "And ritual... That couldn't possibly have anything to do with the spiRITUAL could it now?"

Dude - now you are really stretching! So What? There are Rituals & there is Spirituality & there are even Spiritual Rituals! Have you ever been to a
Mass at a Church - Shocking Front Page Stuff no (Sarcasm)?

Quote: "So if Freemasons wish to stop the accusations that secrets are being kept from them and US, and that they are a group with Spiritual
Teachings, they should just drop all the Ritual."

Come on Akilles you are starting to sound like a Whiney Child. FreeMasons have no Obligations to disclose anything to YOU - only to the Members of
their Fraternity. Don't get me wrong they do Plenty of Charity Work - but come on Seriously - they don't have to Disclose any Private Ritual, Secret
Handshake or Financial Information to YOU or the Public at Large. Has it not occurred to you that said "Spiritual Teachings" might be
Integrated/Incorporated into the Rituals themselves & that this was done for a Reason. Who are you to say that they should get rid of their anything?
If you are so Curious Akilles - then why don't you Join?

Those who make Accusations without any Evidence/Proof/Experience/Knowledge/Common Sense are simply Ignorant Propagandists - this is more than Evident.

Quote: " didn't say they should get rid of anything.
I said the rituals should be erased, deleted, whatever."

Once again you are Contradicting yourself! What if the Rituals (and the Bonds of Brotherhood that they help to Form) is what MAKES FreeMasonry what it
is? Since when did you become an Expert Authority, Akilles? Are you a "Grand Master" or something (I don’t think so)?

Before you can be come a Member of FreeMasons you have to be able to ride a Goat around the grassed areas of the F/M Hall. Before you go inside for
some grazing (supper). Thats what my work-mate told me.....

Originally posted by Asteroid
Before you can be come a Member of FreeMasons you have to be able to ride a Goat around the grassed areas of the F/M Hall. Before you go inside for
some grazing (supper). Thats what my work-mate told me.....

Your work-mate's joking with you. Most Masonic Lodge Halls don't even HAVE a grassed area in the first place. Masonic initiation is VERY
serious and VERY dignified.

Besides, I can't speak for other countries, but in the United States if grown men were actually using goats for initiation (the mere idea of which is
silly) the animal rights whack-o's would have a FIELD DAY!

Originally posted by akilles
I didn't say they should get rid of anything.

I said the rituals should be erased, deleted, whatever.

Now akilles, erasing or deleting the rituals would be "getting rid" of them wouldn't it?

And I want to see the new rituals that Freemasons THEMSELVES design to replace the old, while still incorporating all the old teachings, surely
something could be added?

One of the most important charges to the newly installed Master of each Lodge is that "it is not within the power of any man or BODY OF MEN to make
innovations in the body of Freemasonry" [emphasis mine]

New rituals would be an innovation. Our rituals are ancient and we're proud of them...whether the world at large is fond of them or not...

This is really what I am most curious about, is how Freemasonry would develop if it continued to use its ancient teachings, but was able to make the
rituals over in any image it chose.

Some pseudo-masonic groups have done this...as well as other fraternal societies that have modeled themselves after Freemasonry. Worked for
some...not for others.

Or is the purpose of the ritual to be ancient, and mystifying?

Not so sure about "mystifying" I guess that depends on one's interpretation of the word, but certainly ancient, impressive and very important to
Freemasons.

Originally posted by intrepid
Yet another admonition to not circumvent the censors.

Sorry. I just don't understand how Akilles can think that Freemasonry owes him some kind of explanation, or revelation, of what it does. It's none
of his damn business or concern, as he is not a Freemason.

Originally posted by intrepid
Yet another admonition to not circumvent the censors.

Sorry. I just don't understand how Akilles can think that Freemasonry owes him some kind of explanation, or revelation, of what it does. It's none
of his damn business or concern, as he is not a Freemason.

This content community relies on user-generated content from our member contributors. The opinions of our members are not those of site ownership who maintains strict editorial agnosticism and simply provides a collaborative venue for free expression.