I’ve published this new blog posting regarding the Trayvon Martin – George Zimmerman shooting as the original map posting was getting overly lengthy with case updates and incredibly insightful comments. Without further ado…

On 5/14, Angela Corey files a list of witnesses and evidence in the George Zimmerman – Trayvon Martin shooting case:

The list includes new video evidence from the night of the shooting — both from the 7-Eleven store where Trayvon reportedly purchased Skittles and Arizona iced tea and from a clubhouse in Retreat at Twin Lakes, the townhouse complex where the teen was killed.

Also included in the evidence are phone records — Zimmerman’s from Feb. 20 to Feb. 28 and from March 7 to March 22, Trayvon’s from Jan. 1 through March 1, and those of an unnamed witness labeled “W8” from Feb. 26 through April 2.

Five fire-rescue personnel are listed as witnesses. So are a fingerprints expert with Sanford police, and FDLE experts in the fields of firearms, DNA, trace evidence and fingerprints.

Look for updates — plenty of them are to come! But, I’m guessing this blog posting doesn’t pick up as much traction as the other so your eyes won’t be bugging out while your concentration wanes. 🙂

Update from 5/14 (I found it 5/15) – FBI may charge George Zimmerman with a hate crime in the shooting of Trayvon Martin:

Update from 5/15 –Though completely unrelated to this case, I experienced – first hand – a young African American male being chased earlier today because somebody thought his music was too loud. Video here:

Just like the bond hearing when the MSM was infatuated by who threw the first punch, ABC News is reporting something that’s insignificant/doesn’t matter. Why, though? To keep the case alive and well so that people continue viewing their stories? That’s my guess. “This is an ABC News EXCLUSIVE!”

Zimmerman’s head injury that required soap/water as treatment, a likely broken nose, and back pain – all seen by pausing the above clip at the :31 mark – doesn’t matter to this murder case…at all.

What does matter? The fact that Zimmerman should have ended his 911 call, walked due west (update: or north as seen in this map) to his parked truck, and waited for police to show up instead of stalking, harassing, and preying upon his unarmed neighbor.

Update from 5/16(I found it 5/17) – Trayvon Martin Case Shadowed by Series of Sanford Police Department Missteps:

Florida teenager, Trayvon Martin, died from a single bullet wound to his chest fired from a gun at intermediate range, according to an autopsy report prepared by a medical examiner and reviewed today by NBC News. There was one other fresh injury on Martin’s body, according to the report, an abrasion, no more than a quarter of an inch in size to his left ring finger below the knuckle.

Thank you,tchoupi.caillou.

Here’s an example of a MSM (Fox News) story that should apparently be redacted/corrected…

Because this wasn’t entered in as evidence yet? I’m not sure as I haven’t read the entire file but the screams for help apparently not being Zimmerman’s deserves at least a footnote in this article, right?

The above link also mentions a witness saying the confrontation came closer to him (as blog commenter Toneii points out) and that Zimmerman and Trayvon were in a mixed martial-arts combat position (as blog commenter CommonSenseForChange points out). Interesting since Zimmerman was said to have been unsuspectingly attacked from behind. Or, was he attacked from behind, then there was an argument, and then they got into a grappling position. Right…

Update from 5/18 –Here’s the MSM (via CNN.com) unnecessarily stirring the pot w/ both Trayvon Martin and Zimmerman supporters (though THC being in Trayvon’s system didn’t have any part in his death and could have been from days/weeks prior):

If ABC News really believes this case comes down to who started the confrontation (by leaving his vehicle and stalking, harassing, preying upon, etc. an unarmed teenage neighbor walking home with some snacks), then they just contradicted themselves in the report above.

Note: Harvard Professor Alan Dershowitz has been attacking Angela Corey on this case for sometime. At one point, he even said Corey took on the case (by APPOINTMENT of Rick Scott) for political reasons. I wonder what his beef is with Ms. Corey?

Update from 5/23 –A new map that Zimmerman’s defense team will not like…at all:

I wondered why, on 5/10, Frank Taaffe would blow Zimmerman’s Stand Your Ground and/or self defense case. See map and YouTube video in the header of this posting.

Not that Taaffe’s sloppy reenactment matters – Zimmerman still should have never been a step south of the T in the original “final” map – but, the hurdle will be insurmountable for O’Mara if this new “final” map ends up being correct.

Brandy Green – Tracy Martin’s girlfriend – stated the day after the murder that Trayvon was sitting on her porch and then somebody shot him up by the T.

I’m guessing, as blog commenter aussie mentioned on 5/16, there’s a witness (Chad?) and/or some sort of evidence at/near her porch that hasn’t been released yet. And, that, my fellow amateur investigators, is the nail in Zimmerman’s coffin.

Rightfully confused by the Twin Trees part of the map above? Here’s some text to accompany it…

Zimmerman would be looking over his left shoulder or in his mirrors at Trayvon starting to head towards the south portion of Twin Trees around the 1:34 mark of his 911 call. Note: Even though he was horrible at giving direction during the entire call, this route also coordinates well with Zimmerman eventually saying Trayvon is running towards to back entrance.

Trayvon starts running south on Twin Trees around the 2:08 mark of Zimmerman’s 911 call. Zimmerman leaves his vehicle around 2:15, starts chasing Trayvon south on Twin Trees around 2:17, mentions that “He ran” just past the first gap between the buildings around 2:39 (Trayvon is just about to turn east on Twin Trees at that same time), and Zimmerman no longer has the unarmed teen in sight. Zimmerman slows his pace around 2:47 – well after being told to stop following Trayvon – and either continues walking or completely stops. Note: You can clearly hear audible clicking, tapping, knocking, etc. noises starting around the 2:49 mark of Zimmerman’s 911 call which ends around the 4:12 mark.

In the meantime, Trayvon is on his back porch catching his breath and talking to Dee Dee. Note: I assume he let Chad know he was home and that some creepy dude was chasing him but maybe not. As – or shortly after the 911 call ends – Zimmerman continues stalking, harassing, and preying upon his unarmed neighbor by proceeding east on Twin Trees instead of returning to his vehicle as instructed.

While walking east on Twin Trees, Zimmerman spots Trayvon on his porch talking to Dee Dee and heads north towards the teen. In an attempt to protect Chad and/or not allow a stranger to somehow enter his house, Trayvon runs away from the porch towards the T to the north and the scuffle, wrestling match, etc. eventually begins south of it.

Update from 5/23 –Is Zimmerman’s vehicle parked in crime scene pic #91? As noted here on May 31st and as mentioned in Zimmerman’s reenactment released June 21st, Zimmerman drives a Honda Ridgeline. The Nissan Titan pictured below is similar in size/style to the Honda Ridgeline and may have been used in lieu of Zimmerman’s actual vehicle.

The location of the vehicle seen in this pic is exactly where Taafee and my final maps indicated Zimmerman’s vehicle was parked the night of the shooting…

“Prosecutors said some of Zimmerman’s statements were inconsistent with physical evidence and statements from other witnesses.

“(The) Defendant has provided law enforcement with numerous statements, some of which are contradictory …” the prosecution’s motion said.

Zimmerman’s attorney Mark O’Mara also wants to keep private text messages, emails and journal entries the defendant made, at least until he can review them.

O’Mara said releasing the information would “adversely affect the proper administration of justice in this case, and may make it impossible to find an appropriate jury unaffected by this information.”

If granted – Florida is about as open as it comes with public records – there must be some pretty intense/damning stuff that we’ll be hearing during the trial…

Update from 5/24 –Photos from the evidence dump of Zimmerman’s shoes:

BccList.com commenter CommonSenseForChange asks:

“In the evidence photos, the pictures of Zimmerman’s boot show debris, grass and a some serious soaking on the FRONT, but the back of the boots looks pretty clean. Wouldn’t that mean he was the one on top?”

“John” was the 6th caller within the gated community to phone 911 that night. The first was Zimmerman’s and the second was the call where you can hear the fatal shot. Here are calls #3 – #6 with time stamps (but no need to watch this clip now).

Thank you, Sproutlette.

The murder is said to happen at 7:16:58 pm. The police arrived at the scene of the shooting around 7:19:30 pm and Zimmerman surrenders seconds thereafter.

“John’s” call came into 911 at 7:18:00 pm. So, 1:02 after the gunshot and around 1:30 before the cops show up at the shooting scene.

So, why is “John” going to have a hell of a time on the witness stand? Use the timeline text below and see the YouTube clip embedded here…

At the 9:45 mark of this video, “John” said he locked the door, dialed 911, and as soon as he…

“Picked up on 911 (so, at 7:18:00 pm)...a couple seconds later as we were about to make our way upstairs…it sounded like a rock hit a window. I’ve never heard a gunshot before but now knowing that was the gunshot that I heard…”

To recap, “John” heard a gunshot at 7:18:00 pm as he picked up with 911 and was running upstairs with his fiancee. That, of course, is impossible since the shot was recorded at 7:16:58 pm. Yes, “John’s” recorded statement was under oath.

Some more things I noted about the interview on YouTube (again, seen here)…

At the 14:40, 16:50, 26:26, and 28:34 marks, “John” says he went back inside. At 19:09 he says, “When I first walked out there.” At 28:11, he caught himself saying, “I ran back inside.” At 29:15, “John” makes sure the interviewers know how long he wants investigators to believe he was outside. “It was 1, 2, I’m calling 911, inside.”

But, before the 14:40 mark and also at the 24:28 mark, “John” said he only opened his patio door to see what was going on and yelled at the two people wrestling around.

Also, during “John’s” recorded witness statement on YouTube, he stated that his fiancée told him to not open the patio door when the voices came closer to their unit. That’s probably not true. Somebody would likely never say “Don’t open the patio door!” if it was being opened in an attempt to listen to whatever the unidentified commotion was outside before the shot. The fiancée may have said, “Don’t go outside!” — just like the female caller that was scolding Jeremy during her call when the gunshot is heard — but “John’s” fiancee probably wouldn’t have told him to not open the door to hear more.

Finally, “John” says, “No lie, at least 20 seconds later, the cops were there” during his recorded witness statement. Why is he so adamant about something like this? He wasn’t able to give specific timing during the whole witness account – he said everything just flew by which is understandable – but he clearly states the cops showed up 20 seconds after the shot. The first officer actually showed up around 1:30 after the shot was fired. This would give somebody that was outside during the scuffle and/or shot plenty of time to ??? and then run inside whereas the 20 second time-frame “John” SWEARS by is obviously much narrower.

The ultimate question is: Was “John” outside during the scuffle and shot? At the 32:54 mark of the recorded statement on YouTube, he apparently lied again about hearing a shot after/as he connected with 911 and ran upstairs. But, why?

My guess: “John” did NOT want to be known as somebody that was outside when the scuffle and/or shot occurred. But, why not? The truth is easier than apparently lying under oath. Unless, of course, “John” was doing something outside that he shouldn’t have been.

Lastly: Was “John” wearing a white tshirt as 911 caller #3 noted? You guessed it — caller #3 was “John’s” next door neighbor…

Though, it would be the first time “John” changed a story that he gave under oath.

Update from 5/31 –Why isn’t the state of Florida charging Zimmerman with 1st Degree Murder…yet?

During the bond hearing, we were told more charges could come. Is the prosecutor referencing a 1st Degree Murder charge?

Until (literally) today, I figured it would be tough to prove – as required by law – that Zimmerman’s murder was premeditated or planned (unless new evidence comes out). And then a light bulb went off…

“These assholes, they always get away.”

It’s an obvious fact that Trayvon, an unarmed teenager returning home with some snacks, didn’t get away. So, was Zimmerman’s murder premeditated? A jury may be left to decide whether Zimmerman intended to make sure this “asshole” didn’t get away by murdering his prey minutes before police arrived.

1st Degree Murder in Florida:

For a charge of first degree murder based on a premeditated killing, the prosecutor must show the defendant’s specific intent to kill.

(“These assholes, they always get away.”)

The prosecutor often must establish an advance plan or design formed to carry out the homicide. To establish premeditation, the prosecutor may need to present evidence about the defendant’s activities or steps taken to prepare for the killing.

Florida requires the prosecution of “felony murder,” which also leads to a first degree murder charge, when the defendant commits homicide while during the commission of a specified felony or an attempt to carry out a felony. State laws include a list of felonies that qualify a homicide as first degree murder. These felonies include burglary, home-invasion robbery, kidnapping, sexual battery, and many other offenses, including the murder of another person and aggravated stalking. While the prosecutor must prove that the defendant intended to participate in the underlying felony, the state can proceed with the charge even if the defendant did not personally perform the killing.

2nd Degree Murder in Florida:

Second degree murder lacks the premeditation often required for the prosecution of a first degree murder.

To prove second degree murder, a prosecutor must show that the defendant acted according to a “depraved mind” without regard for human life. Florida state laws permit the prosecution of second degree murder when the killing lacked premeditation or planning, but the defendant acted with enmity toward the victim or the two had an ongoing interaction or relationship. Unlike first degree murder, second degree murder does not necessarily require proof of the defendant’s intent to kill.

Update from 6/1 –Prosecutors are asking for Zimmerman’s bond to be revoked and he be sent back to jail for the shooting death of Trayvon Martin:

Prosecutors in the George Zimmerman case contest that Zimmerman told his wife about the PayPal donations he was receiving while in jail, and that she lied in the bond hearing about being aware of these funds.

Prosecutors also said that Zimmerman had a second passport in addition to the one he surrendered to police after he was released on $150,000 bond.

The prosecution went on to say that Zimmerman “intentionally deceived the court” with wife and talked about monies received “in code to hide what they were doing.”

If a judge decides that there was wrong-doing and Zimmerman’s wife lied, he can be sent back to jail.

I have a feeling this isn’t the last time we hear about a lie that George and Shellie Zimmerman have told.

Update from 6/1 –Zimmerman’s bail revoked, has 48 hours to return to jail in the shooting death of Trayvon Martin:

1) Seeing that a defense case hasn’t been established yet for Zimmerman – and it seems impossible to dream one up given what’s currently known – I wonder if he makes it back to jail alive.

Meaning, if Zimmerman was being painted as a gun totting hero (instead of goat), I can see how he would possibly be interested in serving time. But, as a goat, I can’t imagine somebody of his nature wanting to be told what to do for the next 20+ years starting this Sunday.

2) Now that Shellie Zimmerman could face charges for lying under oath during the bond hearing, I wonder if she comes clean if/when Zimmerman makes it back to his jail cell.

I’m also confused as to why – less than 12 hours later – CNN pulled the story from their homepage about Zimmerman’s bond being revoked due to his lies. Moreover (but maybe more understandably), I don’t know why there wasn’t ongoing nightly news coverage on Saturday about Zimmerman’s deceitfulness.

However brief the MSM’s coverage of his shadiness has been to date, if Zimmerman’s smart he’ll turn himself in VERY early today (Sunday) and avoid the media covering his case (and numerous lies to date) again on Monday.

Florida teenager, Trayvon Martin, died from a single bullet wound to his chest fired from a gun at intermediate range, according to an autopsy report prepared by a medical examiner and reviewed today by NBC News. There was one other fresh injury on Martin’s body, according to the report, an abrasion, no more than a quarter of an inch in size to his left ring finger below the knuckle.

Meaning, lethal force via Stand Your Ground obviously wasn’t called for based on these minor injuries that Zimmerman sustained.

What bushes near the sidewalks did Trayvon jump out from behind (especially with witnesses saying the yelling voices were coming towards them)?

In an initial interview with police just after the shooting death of 17-year-old Trayvon Martin, George Zimmerman described a life-and-death struggle that began when the youth “jumped out from the bushes.”

Update from 6/21 – George Zimmerman Reenacts Trayvon Martin’s Murder:

Question: Why is ABC News not showing the full reenactment (seen in the YouTube video above)?!?

Here’s a comprehensive link from Zimmerman’s legal team including his reenactment, interviews, and statements:

“It looks like George Zimmerman drove around the gated community for about 2 minutes passing by the clubhouse 5x before stopping at the mailboxes for 10 seconds and finally parking further east after a U-turn (pointing west) so that he could face the mailboxes right before calling SPD.”

Update from 7/5 – Zimmerman’s 2nd Bail Set at $1 Million by Judge Lester:

I admittedly don’t get and/or follow law but another bail amount being set for Zimmerman after everything that’s known to date is absolutely ludicrous.

Without being said, the State of Florida has already proved their general judicial incompetence during Casey Anthony’s trial but is the entire judicial system in the US completely messed up or just Florida (and/or presumably most of the deep south)?

And, O’Mara states Zimmerman isn’t a danger to society. Hmmmm. Trayvon Martin, the officer he punched at a bar, his ex-fiancée, those that hired him as party security, and his doctor’s records definitely noted a history of Zimmerman’s aggression.

Judge Lester better hope Zimmerman can keep his thoroughly documented – even in medical reports – mood swings under control over the next year or so until the trial. Otherwise, Lester and O’Mara will have a lot of explaining to do.

Also, if her husband had mood swings caused by Vyvanse (see bottom of Zimmerman’s doctor’s report) during their time together, Shellie Zimmerman will have lied under oath…again.

Lastly, from the above BBC link:

“The racially charged Trayvon Martin case has divided the US.”

I highly disagree. If you thoroughly look into what happened during Trayvon’s final 30 minutes or so, there’s no divide…at all.

Update from 7/9 – New Trayvon Martin George Zimmerman Evidence to Be Released at 10 a.m. Thursday, July 12, 2012:

Yes, Mark O’Mara and George Zimmerman have officially burned every bridge with Judge Lester. I don’t understand this strategy. Seeing that Lester would oversee the hearing, I don’t think Zimmerman’s legal team is preparing a Stand Your Ground defense.

Blog commenter aussie also notes that Mark Osterman can (possibly) be seen in the M & I bank video. He’s (possibly) the last person shown to use the ATM around 6:37 pm (did Osterman see Trayvon Martin and alert Zimmerman?) in the first axiom amnesia clip below.

Of course, the only thing the Sanford Police Department dispatcher wanted Zimmerman to do was NOT follow Trayvon Martin. Instead, he harassed, stalked, preyed upon and murdered an unarmed teen.

Per the above, it sounds like the defense was going to suggest Zimmerman only exited his vehicle to get an address for the dispatcher. Meaning, that’s why Sondra said Zimmerman listened to police and got his ass kicked for doing so. We heard this explanation during Zimmerman’s reenactment video as well. If only police department audio recordings could lie. I also love how Sondra insists that once the evidence is released, naysayers will look like fools. I’m still waiting.

Yes, this screenshot of Sondra’s facebook wall is creepy as hell and I hope Mark and Sondra Osterman’s child (blurred out profile pic) somehow gets a shot at normalcy. I’m not joking or being overdramatic when I say that I’m genuinely scared for parts of this country like Central Florida.

Update from 7/16 – Witness 9 Accuses George Zimmerman of Molestation, Zimmerman Family of Racism:

It seems reasonable that if one needs to establish that a person was defending himself, that the other party had a history of violent behavior. As it has come out over and over again that TM’s history is less than spotless, establishing reasonable doubt on the notion that TM made no aggressive moves on GZ. Any reasonable defense lawyer would do the same. If he didn’t, he should be fired.

The prosecution is going to have a field day with this, a mention that the defense has gone over TM’s records and found only passive offenses they can’t use. As opposed to GZ, where there is much that is of use.

The other was getting a bit hassle to load. It also makes sense to start a new chapter when we start to get this new evidence.

The 7-11 one? should put paid to the nasty blogs that were taking a “he probably didn’t pay for the skittles so he was a thief so he was a thug therefore he attacked GZ for a fact” type of line.

Video from the clubhouse should be VERRRY interesting (if it shows anything, in the damp dark). It should, minimally, tell us which direction TM arrived from, and possibly just maybe a glimpse of the truck.

TM’s phone records from January can’t really see the relevance of, unless the seek to show he was visiting the estate on previous occasions.

GZ’s from the hour or two before the shooting will be important.

Unnamed witness?? useful if we also know where exactly they lived.

Of course I don’t know how much they will actually show, as they’d not be able to include the phone numbers of innocent persons. Here we are eagerly waiting, and they’ll give us a piece of paper with a list of dates and everything else blacked out 😉

I think the SP has been collecting evidence and not doing much speculative work on paper, so they don’t have to hand over what they’re thinking.

If we get the time TM left 711, then using the time of arrival to where GZ spotted him, we can calculate the distance TM should have traveled. The excess distance then, equals the time spent sheltering from the rain.

If we get the time GZ started driving, then we can figure what time he should
have arrived at the front gate, approximately. If these two times, do not coincide closely, then GZ should never have met TM at the gate without having laid in wait. You can get an idea by calculating GZ’s trip to the front gate, using an assumed time of 0:00 for a starting point. Then you can calculate TM’s travels, using 0:00 for leaving his house, 3 minutes in the store and 4 minutes sheltering. That should give a view of how closely or not, the times coincide, by making adjustment assumptions. The trick is, if you have to put in more time waiting places, to get TM’s path to coincide with GZ, Then you have to adjust the time GZ lays in waiting.

Hopefully later we’ll get some actual times. But my feeling is, if GZ has to spend much time waiting for TM to arrive, he’s toast! He could not possibly know that anyone would be arriving in the rain, during his “trip to the store”, without some kind of notice from someone. Not a big thing in and of itself, but it shows that GZ was on patrol, not on his way to the store as he claims.

I said this on another blog and got jumped by Zimmerman followers. I said that he saw Trayvon before he made it into the neighborhood, Zimmerman followers want to say that Trayvon doubled back but Zimmerman himself said he was running toward the back entrance, this would mean he had to go all the way around in order to get the jump on Zimmerman. The Sanford police department has no idea where the truck was parked really because they admit they thought he was on foot so they never checked his vehicle and his wife moved his vehicle from the scene. I am like what? Anyway, Frank Taaffe told us in his many interviews that Zimmerman knew the neighborhood very well because he patrolled it. On the 911 he acted like he didn’t know where he was but yet told the 911 operator to have the police call him instead of him going and meeting them above the mailbox as he first said he would do.

Thats what gets me! How is it you know every resident that belongs in a 200 unit community but you need to get out of your vehicle to walk to street signs? He leaves Twin Trees to walk over to Retreat View….but he LIVES on Retreat View!

It will be interesting to see if the FBI or the SP got any videos of GZ actually at the store? That would mean he was on his way back. His wife moved his truck before the police could get to it, so the easy way is out; just have a look in there to see what was purchased.

In any event, I definitely don’t have the feeling that GZ’s meet with TM was accidental. Because the “windows” in time are just too small to easily coincide without some sort of “massaging”.

the un named witness is probably deedee. Really looking forward to the videos too…and aussie….i don’t think a video of trayvon paying for his skittles will help, they will probably just say he must have used drug money or jumped a pregnant lady and stole her purse to purchase the goods, lol.

Right!!! Frank Taaffe was on last night Jane Valez Mitchell show last night on HLN and he had the audacity to say when they check Trayvons pockets he had 40.00 and a lighter, she said what does that have to do with it and he said that he doesn’t work so where did he get it from. That crap made me so made, as if he didn’t have parents to get it from. I watched it 5/18/12. Maybe you can find it.

Yes! Theresa, I was just going to mention this interview…what you left out is that “Laaffe” Taaffe was trying to imply that Trayvon some how managed to ‘rob’ someone for the $40 after leaving the store…His statement was that “well, we don’t know what happened from the time he left 7-11 and arrived in the complex, now do we?”

Taaffe is arrogant and has proven to be a big idiot. They have made him think he is relevant by allowing him to go on tv and spew his bs everywhere. Zimmerman has a problem if he is his only friend. I think Taaffe played a big role in this murder even if he didn’t play a role exactly on that night. I see him influencing him to hate because it helped him feel powerful. Taaffe is an idiot to sit up and have such a criminal history and call Trayvon and other black males thugs. He solidifies the word thug. I bet he thinks he is gonna make out like a bandit with after this trial is over. Like I said before, I hope they interrogate him into bad health. I also believe that the defense wouldnt want him as their witness, I think the prosecution is the one who wants him as a witness and I imagine this is not gonba be pretty. If they wanted just a character witness why not use his brother who felt so strongly to go on media outlets and told his brothers story. Taaffe like I said is an idiot with an agenda. Typo alerts*** I am using my phone.

You hit it dead on the nail. I couldn’t agree more. Frank’s own son’s were thugs. Heck, Frank is a thug who knows all about thug life. Frank and his sons have all been arrested for drug use and all sorts of criminal activities.

His son, William, bragged on his MySpace that he got a kick out of committing hate crimes, “They’re a blast”, he posted. William was also arrested for aggravated battery against a LEO, just like the confessed murderer. He also committed other crimes.

I agree, I’m thinking he will most likely be a witness for the prosecution. Sure hope they bring up that voicemail message the confessed murderer left on his answering machine, and Frank’s daughter, Meredith’s message she posted on the internet.

Taaffe and anyone who believes him are jerks! Okay, let’s play his little game: How many people are out there walking that night, who TM could have robbed? The video at the store shows there wasn’t anyone in there the whole time TM was there. Worse yet, most people come and leave by car. So how well would a thief do on foot in such an area?

Also, nobody seems to realize that one big reason that crime stats have dropped over the years is: (drum roll please) Nearly everyone has cell phones, with cameras to boot!!! Criminals aren’t so successful at escaping detection anymore, when their picture can be snapped, or the crime called in, right from the scene by anyone.

I once saw a guy trying to rob someone at 41st street and 7th avenue. I found a payphone and called it in, the police took 1 minute and 45 seconds to respond, by car, the guy was caught! Today, in such areas we have beat cops, with feet on the ground. With plenty of cell phones around, they’d have gotten many more calls even faster. My guess is it took me at least 30 seconds to locate and get to the pay phone. I don’t know where the car came from, but they didn’t use sirens so they had to slow for intersections and lights, they were probably 7 or 8 blocks away when they got the call.

Point is, where are these potential victims Taaffe is dreaming up? TM is alone on the streets walking, everyone zipping by in cars. But Taaffe doesn’t think, we can guess that he had a brain at birth, but there’s little evidence that it’s still around now. 😀

I was hoping there were more security cams, but the club house cam should show when/where GZ drove in. With a little luck it may disprove the TM circling scenario.

Frank Taaffe as a witness? So the initial call to GZ theory and Frank’s appearance at the scene of the crime theory are both alive and well.

Finally, while it is likely TM ran past GZ’s truck to the T, both Frank Taaffe and Chief Bill Lee were relying in GZ’s story for their info. Unless GZ saw TM turn south at the T, GZ’s “he’s heading for the back gate” line would indicate a Twin Trees route.

I love free beer! And, I hear Sacramento is nice. I may take you up on that one of these years. Ha!

At first, I thought it was interesting that Taaffe was named. But, so was Joe Oliver. I’m on a mobile device and can’t do much digging around but somebody please tell me Joe Oliver doesn’t reside in this gated community!!? The prosecutors may have just named everybody that’s already come out publicly regarding the shooting.

“He’s running” is at the 2:08 mark of Zimmerman’s 911 call. So, that would mean Trayvon was about 10-20ish feet from the road if he took the sidewalk route instead of Twin Trees. If the sidewalk path was lit – which I only assume it was – Zimmerman would have been able to see Trayvon’s motions.

Did George Zimmerman commit reckless manslaughter and
defend himself at the same time?

I have been reading a lot about the Trayvon Martin shooting and have come up with a lot of thoughts about it so I have been documenting them for the last few weeks. This is all just theory but what the heck, everybody has one so why not me. We will know a lot more pretty soon but for now here is my theory………..I don’t write so good but I think pretty good….At least I think I do.

Most people seem to focus on the 07:12 PM cell phone call from Trayvon Martin’s female friend (not girlfriend) but there were 2 other calls before that.

Jim – thank you for the comment. This was a great breakdown of the event’s timing!

I won’t speculate whether your analysis regarding the confrontation is accurate until more information is released but what you’ve described adds up quite well.

There is one part I disagree with…

“At this point I believe GZ did what he was told and did not follow TM.”

If Zimmerman didn’t return to his car by heading due west when the 911 call ended, he continued following/harassing Trayvon even after being told to stop.

A few questions…

Do you have a link that mentions Zimmerman leaving his house at 7:09? It could have been earlier — 7/11 (Trayvon’s designation) is en route to Target (Zimmerman’s supposed destination) so they could have crossed paths earlier than 7:09. Unless, of course, there’s a source/link stating otherwise.

Believe it or not, I’ve never seen Mary and her roommate’s account of the events. It may have been mentioned in the original posting’s comments but I missed it. Do you have link? I’m on a mobile device and unable to effectively search much.

Cool — I saw the logarchism link before. I could be as right/wrong as that blog posting but I have a weird feeling they crossed paths as Zimmerman went to and/or came from Target. Now I’m trying to remember where I read he was running errands at Target. Things are blurring together…ha!

As I understand it, there was a 3ish minute gap between Zimmerman’s 911 call ending and the shooting. It would have taken Zimmerman about a minute to walk back DUE WEST (so, not south of the T at all) to his vehicle:

I wish he would have done that instead of continuing to stalk, harass, and prey upon an unarmed teenager. Or, did Zimmerman return to his vehicle and then head back to the scene of the eventual shooting? If so, why? This round trip would have taken about 2-3 minutes after the 911 call ended. I can’t wait until Zimmerman’s stories go public — they should be interesting.

Thanks for the Anderson Cooper link regarding Mary and her roommate. I had read about – but not seen – this interview. I should start watching his show given the other interview you posted of the teacher’s account is also very interesting.

”
“As I understand it, there was a 3ish minute gap between Zimmerman’s 911 call ending and the shooting. It would have taken Zimmerman about a minute to walk back DUE WEST (so, not south of the T at all) to his vehicle:”

2 minutes and 41 seconds to be exact. NLME, if you look at the Taaffe video and stop it at 1:57 and look behind Taaffe you will see the down spout the water trickling sound was coming from and about 2 to 3 feet to the right you will see a path in the grass. It is on that corner I believe GZ stood and finished his call.

7:13:39 PM-Dispatcher

You’re welcome.

NOTE: End of call. At this point I believe GZ did what he was told and did not follow TM. After all, he did not know where TM was and GZ seemed to be a little nerves about that. I think he just continued looking out in the dark trying to see some kind of movement with his cellphone in his hand waiting for the SPD to call.

GZ would be able to see the SPD pull in from there (Lights) and still keep a eye out for TM, but it only lasted about 30 seconds or so and then he spotted TM by the teachers window and went after him. So give another 45 seconds or so to get to TM and exchange words and another near 90 seconds for the fight and that’s about got it.

Once Trayvon ran at the 2:08 mark, Zimmerman couldn’t have seen whether he went south at the T or continued east to Retreat View Circle since his parked vehicle was due west and there are houses to the south. So, it would make sense that he cleared the area. The slowing of wind interference, breath, pace, etc confirms this.

Once Zimmerman cleared the area (this wasn’t even necessary as he was instructed to stop following the unarmed teen well before the T in the sidewalk) and while still on the phone with a 911 dispatcher, he should have returned to his parked vehicle due west and waited for police. Instead, he continued to stalk, harass, and prey upon Trayvon Martin leading up to the fatal shot. Therewithin lies the defense’s insurmountable hurdle.

Thank you Jim!
This IS THE most compelling BELIEVABLE theory I’ve run across. I believe your theory is very near the truth. I hadn’t thought of GZ pulling the gun to apprehend TM till LE arrives. But when you add”You got me” it makes perfect sense to me. That utterance was out of place unless it happened as you described.
I love this blog, I’ll be back.

I read it, if it were true, GZ would not be charged with 2nd degree homicide, it’d be 1st degree! It doesn’t matter what he intended to do, if he drew that gun, for any reason and pointed it at Trayvon, he was guilty of assault with a deadly weapon. He has no right to detain anyone, which is one of the reasons that the SPD tells NW’ers not to follow suspects!

So, he draws his weapon, intending to hold TM for the police. But, under the law, he has no reason that justifies any such action. So, he’s also got kidnap, unlawful imprisonment to add to his assault with a deadly weapon! So, it’s into that mix, the commission of three felonies, that he pulls the trigger and now he gets 1st degree murder.

GZ is a law student, he would know that if he drew his gun, without a good reason for doing so, he’d be committing a crime. So lose the gun threat and holding and try again. GZ has witnessed no crime, so he has no right to hold anyone. All he has is a hunch that TM doesn’t belong around there, because he doesn’t know him. Of course, there’s a lot of people in the community who GZ probably doesn’t know. Does he follow every stranger he sees walking around the estates? The record shows that he only follows the black ones, and even then, only if they’re way smaller and very much younger than himself.

Hi Lonnie,
You’re exactly right about GZ knowing the law. Detaining someone is against the law which is probably why he won’t admit it happened.
I’m feel like Jim. Fingerprints will tell the story..that’s IF GZ didn’t wipe them away.

Yes KATE, but I never bothered to challenge or investigate this claim of his, because it does him more harm than good. But, now that you’ve posted the reality of it all, he was a “wannabee law student” as well as a “wannabee caped crusader”. The man is mentally ill.

A quarter inch scratch just below the knuckle on the left ring finger. Could have been a grass cut when he fell with his hands under him.

I like the way they dismiss, that a kid whose a very gentle soul. One who says please and thank you to store clerks, has lots of friends, none of whom are afraid of him, even in spite of his size. Gets painted as a thug boy when the need arises. That’s not real life for people his age. Everything I’ve been able to find, paints him as a very gentle person, not thuggish or dominant at all. Definitely not the type to throw punches at an adult. But, possibly developmentally delayed a bit, by, perhaps 3 or 4 years.

So he played football. Like that means he’s some kind of linebacker? Com’on people, he’s a kid, kids play football for fun, not for stats for next years free agents bidding. He doesn’t have to have any skills to play football with other kids.

As for the story about him slamming GZ’s head against the pavement, that would be more work than this kid has done in many a year. He just hasn’t the muscle to tangle with a 200 lb 28 yo male. It’s a sheer fantasy to think so.

It’s more likely what NLME said, the kid was scared witless and didn’t know what to do. GZ had total control! The rest is a likely story made up to free GZ from blame. So when GZ cornered him, he “temporized” by asking the question “Why are you following me?” That’s not a challenge, it’s an attempt to make some sense of the situation, in the hopes that the follower isn’t really ill intended, has a good reason and will answer.

GZ had no good reason and was ill intended! If the SPD had encountered him there, with this kid, and his gun in it’s holster. GZ would have been humiliated by having his Neighborhood Watch Command taken away from him.

When TM’s parents came home and heard what happened, they’d be at the next Association meeting asking some serious questions. Why did GZ follow? Why was he armed? Why didn’t he heed the advice of the 911 operator? Why didn’t he identify himself? Is this the kid you were accusing of being a criminal? Why? GZ would have no good answers, all he could do would be to stutter and stammer and splutter. He’d be removed from NW as a loose cannon who would not follow orders. Therefore be likely to cast the entire program into doubt, if not attract a lawsuit.

As it is the family now has a right to know how the SPD, who admitted to setting up this program, managed it! Who was responsible for supervision?
Because Mr. Taaffe claims to have gone on patrols, in the area under GZ’s supervision as “Commander”, it begs the question, who told him he was qualified to go on patrols? Did anyone ask him? Did anyone tell him what the rules were? We know that GZ knew the rules, why did he break them all? Could it be that he did so, because he felt there was no one to answer to? There’s probably a good dollop of SPD responsibility here.

Thank you for pointing out that it was only 1/4 scratch, on his ring finger nonetheless. I get them at least 3x per week. He could have scratched himself on a household garbage can, playing sports, anything.

You’re right about his character. His teacher said he got A’s and B’s and majored in cheerfulness. According to his mom, when he had to change schools to be closer to their new home, the teachers begged him to stay because he was such an agreeable and likable child.

How many teenagers, especially boys, really like being kissed by their parents? The picture of his dad hugging and kissing him tells me they were both gentle and affectionate people.

Although his uncle, who’s a paraplegic, disabled veteran, has nursing care, Trayvon enjoyed assisting in his care and bringing him meals according to the family. He was the inspiration for Trayvon wanting to study aviation, a career his uncle once had before he became disabled.

According to the autopsy report Trayvon was 5’11” and weighed 158 lbs, A STRING BEAN. So there you have it, those of you still ignoring the facts and still looking for this 6’3″ 250lb. linebacker.

The bottom line is, the confessed murderer should have stayed in his car or gone back to his home to wait for the police.

the report was from the next day. Why didn’t they insist on a report that night since someone was killed. What about forensics? If my ass was on the block because i killed someone i would make sure i was sporting injuries for the doctor the next day too.

Most especially since the wounds GZ had, were a critical part of his self defense claims. As such they are not merely injuries to be poo-pooed at. But they are substantial evidence of claims being made in a homicide case. To refuse to have them documented, as if they were so inconsequential as to be of no probative value at all, is insane!

Remember how ballistic the public went when they believed there was no evidence of any wounds? So, then, why is this guy who has taken law courses and passed, thinking that a critical part of the evidence — supporting his claims, that he was being so badly beaten that he feared for his life — being so casually treated by himself?

The only answer I can come up with is, he did not believe that his injuries, if examined professionally, would support his story that they were the result, of an attack, sufficient to make him fear for his life. A view that is more substantially supported by his own lack of reciprocal defensive reactions.

After being treated on the scene by SFD for his injuries, the confessed murderer was given the opportunity by SFD to be transported to the hospital in order to have his injuries examined by doctor. HE DECLINED.

While enroute to SPD he complained that his head hurt and he felt a little light headed. I asked him if he would like to go to the hospital. He stated he WASN’T SURE WHAT HE WANTED TO DO. I advised him that it was his choice, and I would drive him to the hospital. HE DECLINED ONCE AGAIN TO BE TAKEN TO CENTRAL FLORIDA REGIONAL.

Once I arrived at SPD with him, he was placed in an interview room. He was provided with tissues and a bottle of water. He was asked once again, if he felt the need to go to the hospital, or if he wanted SFD to come back out to take another look at him. HE DECLINED, STATED, “I THINK I’LL BE OK.”

I kept a constant watch on him through a 2 way mirrored glass. At no point did he exhibit any behaviors that warranted my concern for immediate medical attention.’

I also made contact with him every 15-20 minutes (approximately) to check his status, or to see if he had any requests. During my contact with him, he only requested more tissues, more water, and to go to the bathroom. HE DID NOT MAKE ANY MORE COMPLAINTS ABOUT BEING LIGHT HEADED.

Broken skin on knuckles probably came from Trayvon Martin’s body being rolled over by Zimmerman after the shooting — hands under his body scraping up against the ground/rocks/whatever. Does one ordinarily break the skin of their knuckles when punching? I would expect bruising, but not necessarily broken skin.

Seems to me that what we need to focus on next is, was TM’s body moved and why? We have witnesses saying that TM was on the bottom, the wound, being straight ahead and probably higher than where GZ would hit if they were both standing, probably means GZ was either standing over TM, when he shot him, or straddling him on the ground when he fired the shot.

But, if GZ was straddling TM on the ground when he took the shot, GZ would have to be leaning forward, to make the barrel level and straight, perpendicular to TM’s chest. Otherwise the shot would be lower or have an upwards path.

Try it: Sit in a chair holding a gun like article and point it downwards. Now you will see that your wrists don’t bend enough, so that the barrel points straight down easily. Now, as you lean forward you’ll see that the barrel begins to straighten out on a line perpendicular to the ground.

So, is he leaning forward and saying “you’re gonna die tonight” to TM when he fires??? BUT WAIT!!!
Hells bells… Witnesses see him on TM’s back?
What the hell is going on here?

Shot by a shorter man, high on his chest, in a straight through angle?
The angle should be upwards, no?
Then TM has to be on the ground with GZ either standing over him, or
down and straddling him.

So, who rolled the body over on his stomach with his hands under him?

GZ, first pretends that he shot TM while TM and him were standing:
“He turned around and fell down”.

Next GZ says he took the shot while TM was straddling him on the ground.
But then, TM could not turn around and fall down with his hands under him.
If anything, from that position, he’d fall forward on top of GZ, and GZ would then have to roll out from under him, most likely leaving TM on his back. If so, then how does any witness see GZ on TM’s back pressing down?

The only thing that’s clear is, the body has been moved! The only reason it could have been moved for, is to try to cover up what really happened.
What really happened had to be covered up, because it’s incriminating.

Well it appears now that Jon’s testimony has become *karate-style-chops* (“throwing mixed-martial-arts-style punches”) to Zimmerman now instead of the plain old one-two punches. Which came first, the hole in the evidence or the testimony. One can only wonder.

I’m definitely looking forward to seeing more crime scene/police station photos of Zimmerman’s face/head since the ambulance coming to pick him up was called off and there was no blood or latex gloves seen in the previously released Sanford PD surveillance video.

The 2 head wounds are of significance to me b/c I believe they were described as vertical in one article. and the pix taken 3 min afterwards were more horizontal-slant. blacks eyes can vary by individual.

Here comes the strategic release of evidence piecemeal. O’Mara’s strategy to benefit the defense. And let’s guess, he’ll block the release of any evidence that doesn’t support his clients defense. I too think TM had a right to stand his ground. Apparently, the only one who seemed to be fighting for his life was TM. If this was the life and death situation that GZ claims, he certainly never fought like it. In my mind that gun came out rather quickly, because he never uses his hands even in defense.

Ooooo… just thought of something. That report said nothing about Zimmerman having lacerations on his knuckles or any kind of defensive wounds, even though it was detailed enough to include low-back pain.

Zimmerman definitely knew how self defense laws worked given the fact that he carried a concealed weapon, both of his parents worked in the judicial system, and he wanted to be a cop but couldn’t make the cut.

That said, while it’s natural to think a person fighting for their life would definitely use their hands/knuckles like Trayvon apparently did, Zimmerman figured all he had to do was take a few punches (as applicable), feel vulnerable during a wrestling match, and fire a shot that made sure the “f_cking coon” wouldn’t get away this time.

The problem: You can’t be doing something illegal like stalk, harass, prey upon, etc. a neighbor and have self defense cover your ass. Zimmerman had it about 90% figured out…all the way down to saying it was him screaming for help when that apparently wasn’t the case.

Well, , none of this is anything new to the SP, who decided that filing charges was in order. So, without knowing if, how and when this info, fits into the scheme of things, we can only suspect that O’Mara is selectively releasing info, to make the question of guilt more controversial, thereby giving hope to GZ’s supporters and causing them to give more. O’Mara should have stayed “pro bono”, not focused on raising money, and leave that matter to the court to decide. Now, his own credibility is called into question, by the selective release of the evidence. Obviously, now that he’s no longer pro bono, he has an interest in getting paid as much as he possibly can get.

In any event, we still don’t know, for example, if “white tee shirt” wasn’t on top of GZ administering these injuries. We don’t know what the injuries to TM’s hands were, or how he came by them. All we have is the suggested!

Even so, even if TM did attack GZ, this case will probably turn on the legality of his provocative actions. It’s a pretty high barrier for GZ to climb, since he, unlike an “ordinary citizen”, had a very specific set of rules that he should have followed. Rules that the SPD instructed him to follow, and that the 911 operator attempted to remind him of. Instead, GZ weaves a narrative, that attempts to build in reasons that his conduct that day, should be excused from those rules.

To my mind, the only thing that could possibly excuse him from the rules he had been given, would be if he had actually witnessed a serious crime. If he knew, for example, that he was following someone, who had actually committed a rape, burglary, assault, was illegally in possession of a weapon and was intending to harm someone. But GZ can know none of these things.
All he has, as a reason for assaulting TM (and it was an assault, to call the police on him, even if it might have been justified, it was even more of an assault to have followed TM). To think anything else, would be to give anyone the right to follow anyone, without any good reason, other than to make the claim that they thought that person was suspicious.

The police need “probable cause” for a reason, otherwise we’d all be subject to whatever invasion of our privacy, the police wanted to visit on us, at any time and for any reason. We clearly don’t give the Police that kind of authority! GZ, as a “neighborhood watcher” clearly has even less authority than the police. Which is why his Police training materials restricts him.

His problem will be to justify to a jury, why these restrictions placed on him, should not apply. I do not believe that him losing sight of TM, is reason enough for him to leave his car. Because that leaves him chasing a person, without any good and sufficient reason for doing so. The police, when they received GZ’s report, already knew that the suspect could run, they deal with such things all the time, yet they did not believe that it warranted, having GZ follow! GZ is therefore responsible for whatever occurred after that. Thus, his failure to attempt to end hostilities by identifying himself comes into play. The very same artifact he attempts to use against the police in an earlier encounter.

Yes, and I hope that the mortician took photos of TM to back up his claims that there were no injuries visible to him, that TM had engaged in any fighting.
Because his word is now being called in to question.

I note that he doesn’t release the “wound path” evidence from the gunshot. Which would be even more probative than any evidence regarding the wounds GZ may have suffered.

The evidence of GZ’s wounds, is only useable in comparison to the GZ delivered narrative of the fight. It is not the “break point” evidence needed here, and it won’t be a break point at the trial. It will only go to witness credibility, since it wasn’t properly “collected”. There should have been an examination and photos made at the scene, by people, at least regularly assigned to such duties. SPD may not have a crime lab, but they certainly do have cameras and people who know how to use them. Why such a person was not dispatched immediately to a homicide scene is beyond my understanding.

The family doctor also told Zimmerman to see his psychologist for evaluation. The family doctor also discussed with Zimmerman what would be the “red flag symptoms that would warrant imaging.”

Regarding the “closed fracture” the media is hyping, the family doctor’s report actually says at 1:10 that “we discussed that it is LIKELY broken but does not appear to have septal deviation.” Also note that the family doc advised Zimmerman to see EMT and Zimmerman refused.

NLME’s past speculation appears to be confirmed, the shot was fired while both of them were standing. Meaning as NLME has said, the physical part of the altercation was over, GZ was no longer under attack. They had to have gotten up off the ground, if they had been down there before. But now, it seems to me, that GZ has made an effort to munge the evidence, by getting down on the ground in time to be witnessed there. I have a very bad feeling that GZ’s wounds didn’t come from any fight with TM.

He had to have fired standing, where, at very close range, his elbows would need to move back past his body, or else he’d have to extend his arms, to get the gun close to TM’s body. You can’t extend your arms, and still aim a weapon, anywhere near the level, at a person straddling your body. Your wrists won’t bend enough to allow it. In fact the restrictions are such, you’re most likely to fire with a left to right, or right to left aim, or upwards. But not anywhere near straight head, with a wound path that goes only a very few degrees right or left and/or up or down. You only get the required range of motion if you and the victim are both standing.

I DEFINITELY don’t disagree with your comment but could the shot have been fired while Zimmerman was on top of Trayvon’s pinned down body? I imagine it could – I just wrestled some freaking pillows because my reluctant family member won’t be part of another test. Ha!

“DOCTOR PRESCRIBES LIFE THREATENING GEORGE ZIMMERMAN INJURIES BE TREATED WITH SOAP AND WATER!”

I must have missed this shocker!

The NYT does a splendid job of trying to clean up the GZ bio, to bad nobody in their right mind believes in the MSM anymore! Remember
how they tried to tell us that wmd’s could be mfg’d in the back of a tractor trailer? Or that you could make a fleet of UAV’s in a small desert bound shack?

If I’m elected I’ll pass a law that requires the MSM reporters, commentators and their “experts” to wear face paint, red wigs and size 40 shoes! 😀

Murder mysteries, novels and tee vee shows are rife with depictions of how self made wounds can be made to bolster false claims of injury, needed to escape blame. You’d certainly think that police authorities would be aware of this sort of thing, and seek to build into their procedures, the means to quickly document the findings discovered at homicide crime scenes. But, apparently not, eh? What gives?

A quick 9 mm pistol whip to the back of the head and one to the face could probably cause those injuries. I hope the photographs on the scene are detailed.

Again, I understand the defense is trying to win over public perception by leaking this info but I don’t get it. A broken nose, black eyes, and cut to the head don’t matter. It was well known Zimmerman and Martin had a fist fight/wrestling match.

Plus a total of 4 witnesses say the police gave a different account or tried to get them to modify their statements as to what they witnessed. Regarding the Selma and Mary, the police came out publicly against them attempting to discredit their version of what transpired.

Actually, I don’t think anyone gave an account of seeing Zimmerman’s hands. The closest evidence regarding Zimmerman’s hand movements are given by Mary and Selma (the two witnesses the police came out publicly against as the police attempted to discredit them and what they witnessed). Mary repeatedly said in 3 interviews with the police and media that she thought Zimmerman was checking Trayvon Martin’s pulse. How do you check pulse without using a person’s arms (presumably hands are attached, so SOMETHING made Selma and Mary think pulse-check)? Mary and Selma go on to say that Trayvon Martin was the skinny kid and there was no fighting before the shot and Zimmerman altered the crime scene. I think listening to all the 9-1-1 calls confirms that there was no fighting at the time of the shot. The witnesses are all scared. Mary and Selma expressed that they, too, were scared to give testimony.

All of the above testimony from Mary and Selma was prior to this case going national or international. Eventually, they went on TV news — possibly to make sure if anything mysteriously happened to them, at least their story would make it out there in the national news.

Witness 13, the picture taker has more pictures we may not have yet seen. Witness 13, however, does confirm that Zimmerman had walked away from Trayvon Martin’s body all the way back to the sidewalk Tee (where the so-called evidence Zimmerman thinks supports his story was possibly *dropped* just before the police arrived). This all occurred before the police took pictures, labeled evidenced, etc. This all occurred *after* witness 6 (John) saw Trayvon Martin’s body lying dead on the ground in a sprawled out position and *after* Mary and Selma saw Zimmerman straddling Trayvon Martin’s body after shooting himi. Witness 13 also confirms that Zimmerman moved to a crouched down position near/on the sidewalk after confirming blood was adrip; I think that Zimmerman did this to finalize his crime scene tampering by dripping a little blood near the Tee.

I think the “not normal” events Selma and Mary saw answers the trigger wipe possibility. They say Zimmerman’s actions while on top of Trayvon Martin’s dead body led them to believe Zimmerman was checking Trayvon Martin’s pulse (checking/moving Trayvon Martin’s arms). This is probably how Trayvon Martin’s hands end up in the inexplicable position under Trayvon Martin’s own body by the time the police arrived. Mary and Selma also say Zimmerman was pressing into Trayvon Martin’s back (I think he was checking for an exit wound to know which way to alter evidence). Mary and Selma also say George Zimmerman snapped at them when they asked if everything was ok and after the 3rd time, he responded with “call the police”. Moments later, Witness 13 says George told him he just got off the phone with the police as Witness 13 asked if he should call the police when he saw George Zimmerman walking away from the crime scene and the body towards the Tee in the sidewalk. Witness 13 also asked about whether George Zimmerman used the 40 or the 9 after Zimmerman told Witness 13 that he had just killed Trayvon Martin in self-defense.

Why had George Zimmerman left the crime scene and where would he have gone had Witness 13 not stopped him?

Those two women who witnessed George Zimmerman’s actions after the shot saw Zimmerman with his hands on his head. Selma Mora Lamilla and Mary Cutcher. The police came out publicly discrediting them. Wonder why the police would do something like that.

Unfortunately all I can offer is (hopefully) reasonable speculations to think about. I’d have to put odd protest down to guilty knowledge, thus, denial that GZ’s hands were on his head, would be an attempt to deflect the possibility that he could have injured himself at that time. Easy enough to conceal a small sharp piece of metal or razor blade, to be discarded and/or perhaps recovered unnoticed later by a cohort.

Speculations aren’t truth, all they do is give one directions to look for more evidence. Did GZ actually create NW “trees”? I can’t say, there is some evidence/testimony that appears to be the result of such an effort. Like Taaffe saying that he has gone out on patrols. My guess is that, as NW Captain, GZ would certainly want phone notice from Taaffe of events in the “hood”, and, of course, there are almost always other wanabee’s around, so they too would likely add themselves to any tree, as a way to participate in some way.

All too often, people with time on their hands, develop conspiracies about and around the projects that bring them together. So, I can easily imagine these people having confabs where, “If this happened then I’d do that, say this, swear in your defense… etc.”, holds sway. Taaffe’s actions after the shooting, seem to be the product of exactly that kind of discussion having taken place between the members in the past. Now, of course, the “order of the day”, would be to deny and cover up any kind of past discourse. Only community anecdote could reveal such a possibility. Phone records might indicate something as well.

I think the callS with DeeDee are going to sink Zimmerman. Even if she conflates what was said within each individual call, the totality of what she has said corroborates Zimmerman’s account that Trayvon Martin ran away from Zimmerman and confirms Trayvon Martin felt threatened at one point. DeeDee also speaks to Trayvon Martin’s mindset after Trayvon Martin felt he had escaped. DeeDee said Trayvon Martin told her he thought he had lost the guy.

I think Trayvon Martin is just chilling near his back porch as he continues to chat up his girlfriend. Brandy Green said as much early on. She said that Trayvon Martin was just sitting on the back porch.

In any event, this seems to establish two separate incidents in which Zimmerman followed Trayvon Martin. I think that’s when the following became stalking — Zimmerman did this stalking with a loaded gun, mind you.

Since Trayvon Martin thought he’d lost the guy and probably thought he had overreacted about the weirdo in the car, he’s now just chilling on the phone with his girlfriend until the weirdo is right behind him AGAIN!

Look at the Taaffe video again. Notice what you see at 1:49 in the video. That’s a long way from the Tee and this is where Zimmerman supposedly turned around to head back to his car according to Taaffe.

How would Brandi know he was sitting on the back porch? I know she said that, but she wasn’t even home. I think she remembers the last time she saw him and is trying to tie that with his being dead. It couldn’t have anything to do with what happened during those critical minutes unless Chad actually was home and saw Trayvon on the porch. But why didn’t Chad tell Tracy and Brandi that Trayvon never returned from the store?.

Brandy Green may very well know Travon Martin’s habits while staying at her home. Brandy Green may have experienced not being able to get Chad to respond to the door bell or knocks also. Maybe Chad has a history of NOT hearing door bells. Maybe Chad plays drums in the house, uses earphones to watch NetFlix movies or his room is soundproofed. I don’t know. All I know is that Brandy Green said Trayvon Martin was sitting on the porch.

I believe Trayvon Martin was chilling on the phone after he thought he had “lost the guy” and there’s evidence to back that up despite geographically challenged lawyers and newsers that give only half the story and demonstrate their lack of common sense by showing half a map.

But in Taaffe’s vid (at the 1:49 mark), Taaffe is w-a-a-a-y down the path and you can tell because the doggie can is at least 5 houses down and you can see two trees on the left of Taffe (which is on the side where the body was found) and the doggy poop station on the right of Taffe.

Looking at the google map, the first place two trees could be seen planted that close together on that side of the path is behind the second set of townhouses.

I’ve often wondered about that “porch” statement. The original story was very confused, quoting TM’s “mother Tracy Martin” when that is his father’s name and they were quoting Brandy Green.

Anyway she said “on the porch” not on “our” porch.

What I wondered was, how would she know where he was sitting? she wasn’t there. At the time it seemed to me almost a fabrication by the newspaper, considering how wrong they got the rest of it. Was she just taking a guess? did she really say that at all?

Where was TM’s phone found? (I read somewhere his pockets contained some change, no receipt for the purchase and no keys).

Where was the skittles and tea found?

That’s the sort of thing the police would/should look at, if truly trying to ascertain how/where a fight started. Did they?

Cancelling the ambulance I don’t think is a big issue. There was one at the scene already and it was not needed, as one victim was dead already. The other injured person was given first aid at the scene and didn’t require/ask for transport.

I don’t know the situation in Sanford, or the USA generally, but here they send a special van for a dead body, they don’t take them in the emergency ambulance.

The canceling of the 2nd ambulance is absolutely huge. Nobody away from the scene knew Trayvon was dead. In fact, the EMT dispatchers were actively trying to get him help via a ground or air ambulance.

Once the responding officers and/or EMTs found Zimmerman’s injuries to be minor, they canceled his ambulance and took him into the Police Department for questioning (rather than the Emergency Room). If there was absolutely any chance he suffered something as “small” as a concussion, he would have been questioned at the ER.

Very good point, where were the Iced Tea and Skittles found? They were mentioned very early on, that would leave us to believe that they were found at the location near where TM was found dead. Obviously the police nor GZ knew where TM was living back then. So, if they weren’t there, they’d not know to look for them, or if found some distance away, they’d not have known they were connected to these events.

If TM, for instance, had made it to his back porch, the rational thing to do would be to put this stuff down, to free the hands, if he were planning to confront GZ.

But, if you’re hiding from a follower and you plan to confront him, again you put things down to free up your hands while you have the opportunity.

Where were the skittles and iced tea when Trayvon supposedly first struck GZ by surprise? He could probably put the skittles in the pocket of the hoodie, but I don’t think the iced tea can would fit.

Anyway, I think public pressure is having an effect on O’Mara, whose plans to selectively release evidence/data is coming to an end, because it’s eroding his credibility.

It appears Trayvon Martin’s belongings and the rest of the evidence was tampered with prior to the SPD’s arrival on scene. Check Selma’s, Mary’s and Witness 13’s statements (both taped and written) again.

Yes, I’ve read that… The alteration of the crime scene by GZ means
that the blood evidence on TM’s sleeves is gone! It, and lots of other
evidence, that might have been of use to the defense, is now questionable!

However, the fact that the defendant altered the crime scene is incriminating.
He cannot now point to any of the physical evidence, and offer any explanation of it that can be relied upon. Only the things that could not be altered can stand.

okay, he was killed a long way from their porch. Eight or 10 houses away.

What made her think he was sitting on the porch?

Were his purchases found there? was he seen there? by Chad perhaps? in which case wouldn’t Chad have seen more (eg a chase or a fight?) and told the adults when they returned home from their dinner?

Or is she assuming, based perhaps on his going out there earlier, eg to have privacy for his girlfriend-phone calls? maybe he was out there when they left to go to that restaurant (7-ish is a reasonable time for that, it can’t have been very much earlier).

Of course if he ran, then felt safe (“lost him”) and sat down to finish his conversation, and then GZ comes around the corner and sees the suspicious *** ***** ***hole on somebody’s PORCH…… well he’s clearly got to be planning to break in there, eh?

So this “porch” business is either a mistaken assumption, or a very big issue. Strange it was never mentioned again after that one interview.

I think it’s going to be a big issue. It’s probably a habit of Trayvon to sit on Brandy Green’s porch and chat on the phone. It’s typical teenager behavior. I also read that Brandy Green works at a juvenile detention center or something along those lines. She’s probably very familiar with teen behavior if so.

Jon (I think) said he saw gunpowder on the hoodie, so Trayvon Martin still had it on him or with him.

On a side note, the picture of Zimmerman with what appears to be a cell phone at his ear with a bloodied scalp shows a dark grayish something on the ground. I think that portion of the picture could very well be Travon Martin’s body in his “dark gray hoodie” not yet covered in tarp.

The dark gray thing on the right is not Zimmerman’s jacket since his sleeves on that particular jacket are red. Look at the police video shown by abc. In the video at the police station, Zimmerman’s jacket sleeves are red. I think Zimmerman was on the phone right after he killed Trayvon Martin and whoever took the picture may have captured Trayvon’s hoodie on the ground in the picture.

Black/Dark grey shoulders. Black/Dark grey sides. I can’t see with 100% certainty what color of fabric is near Zimmerman’s wrists but it looks like the sleeve is 100% red from elbow down.

If that’s the case, there is definitely something black/grey in the picture – directly to the right of the phone and below the red patch that is seen – that should be red instead of dark grey/black. Interesting observation.

I assume this was already pointed out. My bad. Worth the recap though.

While watching Taaffe at the 1:47-1:49 mark on the above video, there is a further confirmation that Zimmerman went way down that dogpath. While explaining how George headed back to the truck, he is gesturing expansively up the path and off to the left. This is the way back to the truck, he says. The T and doggy-poo container in the far background have to be where Taaffe then goes on to claim the shooting happened, broadcast next in the video. Just how far up that dog path did GZ pursue TM?

@ Jim, I like your theory; except between 7:11 & 7:12p tray was hanging up with the 6:54 incoming. deedee’s 7:04 which lasted a min went to voice mail. so, then he accepted a 7:12 call from her which last approx 4 min. tray could not have lost connect with her at 7:11. check it.

@ Jim, tray could have called her and she him & both lines were tied up. normal biz during storm too. anyway plus or minus a minute is missing here, so we have to wait for more official records. a fight will ensue over the phone records getting in b4hd for both sides. just a thought.

I find this whole thing beyond belief. If Zimmerman was unarmed and the result of the conflict was only what we know… injuries to Martin’s hands and Zimmerman’s face and head, would we be seeking to forgive Martin or would we find Martin at fault? This is an important question because we are making the issue that a gun was used. This is an entire situaiton with causes and effects. A neighborhood watchman was within his rights to question why that person was out and about. Is that deniable? It’s the function of neighborhood watches.

What is also undeniable is that the wounds suffered by Martin were self-inflicted and the obvious result of his assaulting another person. It is also undeniable that it occurred prior to Martin being shot. There has been no evidence that Zimmerman did anything outside of the duties of neighborhood watch to provoke any action from Martin. That Zimmerman may or may not have followed Martin is irrelevant because under circumstances where no gun was used it would have come down to the question of who threw the first punch. And in this case, who threw repeated blows which were unanswered by the victim of the initial attack.

And in any and every situation where one-sided assaults of this sort occur, the blame is always place on the one doing the assault. That person is undeniably Martin.

Laying aside the question of Zimmerman’s actions and whether or not they were justifiable, let’s first admit that Martin’s actions, under no reasonable circumstances would be considered acceptable or justifiable. And if you believe otherwise, I would be very interested to know why.

It could be that Zimmerman thought he was in a superior position to Martin’s. Morally, Zimmerman must have felt superior. It was his job. Physically, it’s hard to guess one way or the other, but even if he did, it became very evident that Martin was more than capable of overwhelming Zimmerman having knocked him to the ground and was punching and beating his head against concrete.

You can draw maps about routes and stuff like that all day long but it changes nothing of the actions of the people involved took. And the physical assaults, by the evidence, started with Martin as the aggressor.

The news and many others are trying very, very hard to turn this into something it isn’t. Zimmerman is no racist. Zimmerman’s background and associations and even volunteer services paint a picture which opposes this view. The death was not racially motivated. If it were, Zimmerman wouldn’t have given Martin a chance to attack.

Nothing else can explain why Zimmerman’s face and head were wounded while Martin’s hands displayed wounds consistant with being the attacker. And surely no one is suggesting that Zimmerman assaulted Martin with his face targeting his hands and then fell down repeatedly hitting his head on concrete.

But let’s say that Martin was scared. That his reaction was one not unlike that of a cornered victim. Is it justifiable? I can’t imagine how. Even if Zimmerman was verbally assaulting Martin in the worst possible ways; even if Zimmerman was intimidating and threatening Martin, was physical violence by Martin against Zimmerman justifiable?

Given the wound evidence we know about, even under the worst imaginable conditions where Zimmerman was the devil himself, can anyone justify what Martin had done? Is violent assault a reasonable response to verbal confrontation? The law and society says “no” every time.

And for all that is “objective” stop saying “prey upon.” That’s a completely worthless word. And if you insist on using it, then it’s worth mentioning that Martin had a history of preying on others and that’s a matter of record.

@ Daniel: First, Neighborhood Watch has no right to follow anyone. GZ, as a trained NW’er, knew that he was not to follow suspicious people.

Second, GZ says that he was not engaged in NW activities when he first saw TM. He claims he was on his way to the store, obviously that would be, for an errand so pressing the rain was not an issue.

GZ says that TM knew he was being followed at some early point. At that point in time, when TM was approaching GZ’s car, “to check me out”! That is exactly when, by all sane metrics, GZ should have rolled down his window and identified himself. After all, as “your friendly Neighborhood Watch Commander” you can’t simply presume that everyone you see out walking in the rain, is an armed and dangerous suspect! Any person who knows they’re being followed, is not only unlikely to commit any crime, but also has a reason to be concerned for their own safety.

Thus, without a right to follow anyone, suspect or not, GZ should have immediately identified himself when TM drew near. If he had done that, because TM was no criminal, the matter would likely have ended there!

Instead, GZ allowed hostilities to persist, and further moved to aggravate them by continuing to follow, and later by again refusing to identify himself.
Thus, he presented a complete stranger with an oddly hostile and belligerent demeanor, which he made no effort to abate! Thus he allowed a hostile and dangerous situation he had created, to escalate!

Please google Neighborhood Watch and see what the concerns are about how they are created and what they constitute. Then you’ll have a better understanding of what you’re talking about when you say that GZ was doing what a NW’er was supposed to be doing. He wasn’t, none of the materials you read will confirm that he was. He was doing the opposite, and making himself a vigilante unlawful, a stalker/predator, possibly dangerous criminally intended person.

Even the understandings he GZ had gain during the 14 hour course, and his law studies, should have advised GZ that he alone was creating a dangerous situation and causing/allowing it to escalate. By withholding the identification of himself, he becomes and unlawful challenger, like a policeman who takes precipitous actions without identifying himself, he can cause others to respond with “excusable confusion”. “Excusable” because the courts recognize the rights of people to take reasonable defensive actions, when they feel their rights are being unlawfully transgressed upon.
Even GZ claims that, when he saw an unidentified person assaulting his friend, he responded to that friends defense, because he did not know that the assaulting person was a police officer. A claim which turned out not to be true.

Regardless of the experts claiming the voice was not Zimmerman, I find it difficult to imagine a scenario where a bloody-fisted person would be crying or pleading. The only evidence of which of the two is the aggressor indicates that it was Martin.

It is clear what you want to believe. But if someone wanted to point to “white on black hate crime” a worse candidate could not have been selected. This is a rather textbook example, in my opinion, of a black on white crime gone bad.

You are making assumptions and presumptions. I’m going by what forensic evidence which has been presented to the public. We have the 9-1-1 call which does not help Zimmerman’s case much except to show that he is willing to allow the police to do their job and to help them do so. Keeping a suspect in visual range does not exceed this.

The evidence showing that Zimmerman, a person who far outwighted Martin, was taken to the ground would seem to indicate he was overwhelmed and taken by surprise. If there was “preying” then it was done by Martin. In a situation where one’s face and head are being beaten, it doesn’t really fit that the person doing the act would cry for help.

I am a father of three sons and one is currently of teen age just older than Treyvon. The other two older and younger. I don’t find it difficult to imagine a 17 year old acting stupid and full of himself because it’s something teenage boys are prone to do. However, as a parent, it would be my worst fear come to life for them to defy my teachings to dress and act as Treyvon has. My first has survived his teens and has gone on to defend our country (whatever that means to you) and my third will hear this and other examples of how and why not to behave in certain ways. (Notably, I can’t tell my middle son anything because he thinks he knows everything already.)

And that’s the thing isn’t it. In a nation where we have guns permitted by constitutional law, people should be taught to be careful around strangers to say the least. Presuming Treyvon was completely innocent in everything else, the evidence shows he was not careful and that while he dominated the situation for a moment, did not guess that the person he was assaulting had a gun to defend himself.

Here is a question. At what point does Mr. Zimmerman politely say that he is the neighborhood watchman? How was Martin know who had rights to follow him? I don’t think any stranger has the right to follow me in the dark. That in itself is threatening. We don’t know who started the physical confrontation, but clearly a man, woman or child fighting for their life will inflict wounds through finger nails biting etc. Seems pretty suspicious that Zim can aim a gun, but has no inclination to fight with his hands. Could it be that his hands were full?

“Even if Zimmerman was verbally assaulting Martin in the worst possible ways; even if Zimmerman was intimidating and threatening Martin, was physical violence by Martin against Zimmerman justifiable? ”

Are you suggesting a person does not have the right to walk away from verbal abuse and intimidation?

They’re not allowed to push past an intimidator blocking their path, who has them cornered or backed up against a wall ? They should just stand there and put up with it?

Next thing you’ll be telling us a woman should not fight against an abusive partner who’s trapped her in the bathroom, or an intending to rapist who corners her in a car-park. And we should all hand our wallets over to anyone who says “gimme your money or I’ll thump you”. Nor should a kid fight back if a stranger approaches him from a suddenly-stopped car.

Different? not at all. What if he DID try to walk away, and GZ made a grab for his arm to detain him? that would leave no physical evidence on either of them…but that is no proof it didn’t happen.

You also seem to be saying it’s okay to shoot, to get out of being beaten with bare fists. Yet you don’t think it’s okay to shove someone, to get out of being subjected to further verbal abuse and threats? and punch them if they resist the shoving? Where is the physical evidence (or indeed just a statement) that GZ tried in any way to defend himself WITH HIS HANDS, before drawing and using the gun?

If TM was being abused or threatened by someone who had OBVIOUSLY been following him – and who never once identified himself — he’d have every reason to fear for his safety, even without/before being grabbed in an attempt to detain him.

Evidence of injuries on both parties proves nothing. It is already well known there was a fight. Plenty of people saw it.

But they did not see HOW IT STARTED, therefore who started it. That is what is relevant here.

All our map-drawing is aimed at working out, from the known times, what the likeliest/more possible scenarios could have been.

It is obvious that GZ is not telling the whole truth; even the police quite early on found discrepancies in his various statements to them. What is he hiding?

Some of his published statements make zero sense. Like, how come in over 2 minutes he still had not gotten back to a vehicle, from a spot it took him only 26 seconds to get to? Like how come he went the other way to look for a street sign (in a 3-street estate he’s patrolled for 2 years) when what the police wanted to know was where his truck is parked at? like how he got his nose broken when being jumped from behind (photographic evidence showing his nose is in the usual, frontal, position).

Like how come he never mentions any argument with TM even though several witnesses could hear one? (but which would belie the story about being unexpectedly jumped and bashed to the ground). Like how he never once states he identified himself to TM to explain WHY he was entitled to be interested in his activities? (once again, maybe because a prior discussion would make a lie of the innocent-jumped-from-behind story?)

You ask whose side we’d be taking if the gun hadn’t come into play. Just based on the other injuries.

Well, you see, in that case Trayvon Martin would be alive and well, to tell HIS version of what happened and who started it.

That is the crux of the whole issue.

Dead men can’t talk. The survivor can tell a lot of stories the victim would and could deny, were he still alive to do so.

The survivor also has compelling motivation to tell a story that will keep him out of jail, because whether he ends up there or not depends on what happened, and there is ONLY HIS VERSION available, because dead men can’t talk.

So the forensics, the witnesses to little snatches of the events, the map-drawers, the plotters of what could be true and what could not be true, are the ones who have to speak on behalf of the dead man, to get a view of the events other than that provided by the survivor, who has clear self-interest in making it look good for him.

It may yet be that, in court, these evidences add up in GZ’s favour. Well and good, if that happens. But until all the evidence is in, you can’t just accept his word for what happened, especially when it does not add up.

I’ll just say it again: there is only one truth, a million lies.

If someone tells more than one version of what happened, he is LYING. Even if one version is the truth, the other(s) cannot be. So using the fact that he said it as reason to believe him goes out the window. We need to seek other ways of determining which, if any, is the truth. That is what trials in court are all about.

You are extracting ridiculous meaning. According to the situation, Martin was not “cornered or trapped” so why are you even talking about whether he was? According to the 9-1-1 audio, Zimmerman actually LOST Martin meaning he got away. This means Martin returned or did not flee.

If Zimmerman was attempting to hold Martin in place for police to come and question him, it is evident that he did not use physical force or violence to accomplish it. So once again, responding with violence against non-violence is unacceptable and this is true in official matters as well as civil ones. (Don’t we all get outraged when we see police break up peaceful demonstrations?)

I fall back to the facts and I hope other people will as well.

Zimmerman had wounds consistent with being assaulted. Martin did not. Now we hear that the shot which killed Martin was at “point blank range” but not from a distance from which Martin couldn’t see there was a gun. If Martin was “shot in the back” we would know so it’s 99% certain that it Martin was shot in the front and that Martin could likely see the gun.

This leaves a question in my mind. Did Zimmerman fire because Martin was coming at him [again]? Or, as most people want to imagine, did Zimmerman fire because he was a racist hater of black people?

And for anyone who says “neighborhood watch should not follow” I have to say that’s crap. Neighborhood watches are there to provide information to police to help them in their investigations. It is a role not unlike other security people. I have had the displeasure of being trained as a TSA screener while between career jobs and we were explicitly instructed to keep suspects in sight for as long as possible and to follow them from a safe distance so that we can report anything we observe to a LEO (law enforcement officer). There may be other instructions which might appear to conflict with the mandate of being observant but they are not. One needn’t be confrontational to be observant. And so far, it has not been proven that Zimmerman did anything other than that… it has, however, been assumed that he somehow instigated everything and that Martin is blameless for everything.

Being pinned to the ground by a grown man that has been stalking, harassing, and preying upon you is not peaceful or non violent. Especially if Trayvon was looking down the chamber of a gun (or even felt one on Zimmerman’s body during the wrestling match).

You can think you’re commenting on the facts only but you’re not. The only fact that matters is that Zimmerman should have been waiting in his parked vehicle for the Sanford Police Department to show up…as instructed during his 911 call. Neighborhood Watch is a voluntary program whereas you earned a paycheck with the TSA. See the difference?

“Did Zimmerman fire because he was a racist hater of black people?”

I don’t know but his lethal shot made sure this “asshole” wouldn’t get away. Too bad the “asshole” was an unarmed neighbor simply heading home with some snacks.

“If Zimmerman was attempting to hold Martin in place for police to come and question him.”

Are you suggesting they weren’t wrestling on the ground when the shot rang out? Rather, Zimmerman was holding Trayvon in place while they were both standing up?

A grown man standing up and grabbing onto a teenager that is also standing up but crying for help is creepy, right? On that note, why was Trayvon screaming for help during an event you labeled non violent or peaceful?

I don’t think “point blank” means what you think it means. In classical terms, it means “from a distance at which missing the target would be impossible.” It does not mean in close contact or even in close quarters. As ex-military, I know my way around guns.

It is not really flattering for Sanford PD. However, they apparently quickly caught inconsistencies in GZ’s statement and therefore tried to build a case against him as told by Cheryl Brown the mom of the 13yo Austin McLendon.

* Officers did not thoroughly canvass the Retreat at Twin Lakes gated community, failing to determine that Trayvon was a guest, not an intruder.

* Some officers were skeptical about details of Zimmerman’s account, particularly the injuries he claimed he suffered and alleged threats made by Trayvon.

* An officer took only one photo of Zimmerman’s injuries — a full-face portrait, using a cellphone camera, showing a bloodied nose. Paramedics then tended to him. The officer did not download the photo for several days.

* Police did not secure Zimmerman’s SUV as part of the crime scene. Although he had called 911 from his vehicle and was instructed to stay inside until police arrive, officers said they thought Zimmerman was on foot.

* The police did not cover the crime scene to shield evidence, including blood, from the rain.

* Zimmerman was not tested for alcohol or drugs.

* Police did not have a complete background check in hand until midmorning the day after the killing.

* One witness said a police investigator twice declined her offer to show him “the close and unobstructed vantage point from a partly opened bedroom window where she had watched and heard the struggle.” The witness said the detective taped part of her account.

Well, now we know that the shot was not fired while TM was on top of GZ, while GZ was laying on the ground. Have someone sit on top of you while you’re laying on your back and using your finger as a gun, see what position you’re easily able to fire from. There just isn’t enough space to fire from even 3 to 4 inches away. With the gun in either hand the barrel is going to be most easily aimed either to the left or right, or up, but not down or straight head. This is because the length of your fore arms and bend in your wrists, will restrict the moves you can make while your elbows cannot go lower than the ground.

To fire a straight ahead shot, you need to be standing so that your elbows can move backwards past your torso, if the victim is very close and/or being held.

This means that the physical hostilities had ended when the shot was fired, if there was any fight at all. Trayvon had no means to answer while having a deadly weapon pointed at him. The efforts that GZ claims put him in fear of his life had ended and he had gotten up from the ground, both alive and able to draw his weapon. He did not need to fire it, since merely poking it in TM ribs would have been sufficiently intimidating to end all resistance.

I also note that since he now has control of his weapon, he also has yet another opportunity to identify himself.

If TM had lived to tell his side of the story, at the very least, without the killing, GZ would have lost his NW command, the SPD, after this performance, could no longer risk retaining GZ.

I just ran your experiment with a reluctant family member. If Zimmerman was on the bottom getting his head pounded into the grassy area, Trayvon’s autopsy would have undoubtedly shown a “near contact” gunshot wound. It would have also been very tough to fire a pinpoint lethal shot in this scenario.

There’s no way this thing even goes to trial, right? I think that’s what other commenters were saying in the original blog posting. Meaning, O’Mara is trying to buy time/money and then settle for a plea.

I’m not entirely sure Angela Corey is going to be willing to offer a plea deal though (and then Zimmerman and O’Mara still have to deal with the impending Federal Hate Crime).

Yes, just laying on a bed or flat surface, even without another person, one can see that it’s almost impossible to put any distance between the muzzle and the opponent. With the ground preventing the upper arms from moving backwards, the forearm has a very restricted range of motion. Trying to withdraw the hand, away from a person straddling you, then requires that your wrist bend more.

So, no intermediate range shot is possible, unless you extend your arm out to the side and twist your wrist back to point the gun at the opponent. A very unlikely thing to attempt, with an opponent sitting on top of you who can easily pin an extended arm to the ground. That would make any chance of hitting him impossible. But, if you did get off such a “intermediate range shot” that way, the bullet would be traveling from left to right, or right to left and upwards.

The shot taken goes almost straight through TM’s body, in the front and exits the back on an almost level trajectory. The sum total is, they both had to be standing up on their feet when the shot was fired, to get the range of 12 to 36 inches and a level flight path.

Since TM could no longer fight after being shot, the statement “he turned and fell” seems to be the true one. That means that whatever had happened on the ground was not the reason for the shot! But, something did have to happen on the ground, because GZ has grass stains on his back! But no lawn debris on his head wound.

This makes me think that GZ laid down on the grass and wiggled around, AFTER he shot TM. This is what was observed by a witness, who saw GZ laying on the ground some distance apart from TM. It may also be when “white t-shirt” came to administer GZ’s wounds, needed to make his claims.

Of course, like I said earlier, GZ could very well have worn those wounds from his house! By the time he lays down in the grass, the blood is congealed and no longer sticky enough to pick up debris, just wet a bit, from the time he left his car.

Also, it would be a very simple explanation as to why TM ran. After seeing the person following you, closer up and from behind as you passed, if you’d noticed they were also bleeding, you’d be very, very spooked indeed. Think Freddie Kruger Friday the 13th typed spooked. A bleeding man in a car following you in silence? You’d probably run, but run anywhere but home!
You definitely wouldn’t want such a person to know where you lived. So your only option is to run and try to hide. If they found you, all you could do is ask them why they’re following you, of course, you don’t expect any answer in that case, you’d just be temporizing.

If that person then started arguing with you, you’d play along and argue. Hell you’re scared witless, perhaps loud enough voices will attract more eyes and possibly help. When that doesn’t seem to be working, and your attacker gets a grip on you, you don’t plead with him, because you have no reason to think it will have any effect. He has to appear crazed! So you start screaming for others to come help you. Shows just what a ghoul GZ is, he’ll take a dying boy’s screams for his own.

He coldly puts his own words in Trayvon Martins mouth “you’re going to die tonight”. Why would TM say anything like that? He’s not a criminal, he’s never even thought about killing anyone. But Zimmerman is a criminal mind, and I believe he has often thought of killing someone. Lot’s of people who get concealed carry permits have such thoughts, some more than others, but they do have to think about it, otherwise what’s the gun for?

“The shot taken goes almost straight through TM’s body, in the front and exits the back on an almost level trajectory.”

Do you have a link? Again, this may have been covered/posted before but everything is starting to blur together…especially for 1st time readers.

“Of course, like I said earlier, GZ could very well have worn those wounds from his house!”

Can you explain further?

“He coldly puts his own words in Trayvon Martins mouth “you’re going to die tonight”. Why would TM say anything like that? He’s not a criminal, he’s never even thought about killing anyone.”

And, Trayvon’s supposed verbal threat doesn’t makes sense because he didn’t have a weapon capable of killing somebody. No, you can’t kill somebody in a fist fight/wrestling match. Ok, you can, but it takes some massive blows and fluke happenings. It would have made more sense if Zimmerman said: “This guy threatened me by saying, ‘I’m going to kick your ass tonight.'” But, that type of threat wouldn’t fit “nicely” into his Stand Your Ground defense.

Let’s see, it was in the last one posted about the records released here or on the other blog. I also posted a copy on my blog, but I’ve got so much to answer I can’t search right now. (inboxes full). They don’t say “straight through or level”, but give the location of the entrance and exit wounds and say that the left ventricle and lung are in the path. There aren’t many angles that will get the left ventricle and the left lung in the same path. So I surmise that the shot had to be pretty level. Especially since, when you factor in the closeness, that means that small angles mean small variations along the path because it take distance for small angles to cause much of a spread.

But, because I have to read and figure, it takes longer to figure which document says what. But I remember it was an article posted yesterday about the records release, and I got the link here (somewhere above), or on the court list.

If GZ ended up on top, you then have to explain how TM ended up down on his belly. Either, GZ flipped him over for some reason or TM was on top but not bending over GZ but rather straddling him on his knees or even maybe standing or anything in between.

If they weren’t both standing when the gun was fired, the wound path would not have been straight through TM’s body. If GZ was standing and TM was down, the wound path would probably be slightly upwards from front to back and/or quite a bit more left to right or vice versa, depending on which hand GZ used. Since he’d probably have fired while standing beyond TM’s feet.

If TM was up and GZ was down, the wound path would be clearly upwards.
So, the most likely stance for a level front to back wound path that’s nearly straight, is for them both to be standing. Any bending over on TM’s part, lengthens the wound path, while twisting the body causes the wound path to appear curved or out of line.

My guess is that some powder burning would be lessened by the cloth being damp, so I’d guess, after reading about it, the shot was most likely fired from somewhere between 15 to 25 inches away. Close enough that he could have been holding TM by his hoodie or arm. We shall see. I think the SP has quite enough to get a conviction. I also think that they may get even more, if they don’t already have it.

My guess is the FBI will do a more thorough check into GZ’s background looking for evidence of his thinking on racial matters. I think his applications and forms won’t bear out that he has any pride at all in his Hispanic heritage, he concealed this proud legacy from the SPD, and I think he concealed it from everyone else besides.

NLME “I just ran your experiment with a reluctant family member. ” I’m not sure if it sounds like fun being your family member or maybe kinda scary haha. I just have these visions of you putting all your relatives in position while you re-enact crime scenes, pinning people to beds, doing combat rolls on the ground and making shooting noises “pow pow pow”..haha

Apparently, TM was shot from intermediate range. I’m not sure what an intermediate range is supposed to be but I guess it means TM didn’t have the gun against his chest when the shot was fired.

The other interesting info is that TM had only one additional wound; a 1/4″ cut at the left hand, under his ring finger’s knuckle. So, I better grab SPD’s statement that TM doesn’t seem to have been beating GZ hard for 1 min.

The final point I take from that news report is that GZ’s wounds (a lie broken nose, black eyes, …) didn’t require stitches. We knew the ambulance was called off. Now we know the report shows GZ didn’t have it that bad.

In other words, the report confirms that there was a scuffle between TM & GZ. Beside the gun shot wound, TM looks in better shape than GZ but none of them had it terribly bad contrary to GZ’s statement of having his head banged on the concrete for a minute.

The whole report can easily fit with the hypothesis that GZ was trying to hold on TM until police arrives while TM was throwing punches to break free and run away.

There is no wound of any sort reported on GZ’s harms/hands. So, he didn’t really tried to protect his face. There is no wound on TM’s suggesting his been punched. So, what was GZ doings with his hands if he wasn’t punching back or protecting his face? Was he grabbing TM by his hoodie? Did he have his gun drawn already or was he trying to draw it?

The intermediate range shot wound may suggest the gun was fired at a moment TM was breaking free and just getting away. If the gun powder on TM’s hoodie is confirmed, it means that the sweater wasn’t against TM’s chest. So, where was it? In GZ’s hand?

TM was found lying face down on the lawn. That looks feasible if he was standing or in the process of standing up when he was shot. He would then have collapsed on the side of GZ. This could be an indication that TM was indeed breaking free.

“In intermediate-range wounds, the muzzle is held away from the skin but close enough that it still produces powder tattooing. This type of wound is also characterized by numerous reddish-brown to orange-red lesions around the entrance to the wound.”

Do we know for sure that Trayvon was shot from the front? I’m not suggesting Zimmerman shot him from behind (adds: unlikely given Zimmerman knew he had to be acting in “self defense” in order to pull the trigger), but, if so – we all know what that means.

Thanks for the information.
I’m still not clear though, because Flashlight, the man who took a picture of GZ’s head, saw the powder mark on TM’s hoodie which suggest that the intermediate range was to the sweater and not the TM’s body. The article suggests it was to TM’s body. Moreover, how could Flashlight see the gun powder mark on TM’s body if he was lying on it. The only ways I can see is that the sweater was wide open or the body has been moved.

explains it with illustrations of the residues (from which they determine the shot distance). The Intermediate description is right down near the bottom.

Screaming for help, even if you WERE the original aggressor, ties in very nicely with finding yourself suddenly facing a gun. Even more so if you already knew about the gun, was fighting to stop the other getting at it, and he finally gets it out and pointed your way.

YES the report says shot from the front, entry of shot into left ventricle of the heart.

“The person who took THE PHOTOGRAPH of a bloodied Zimmerman, asking not to be identified, told ABC News exclusively that THEY did not see the scuffle that night, but did hear it. The person recalled seeing Martin’s prostrate body on the wet grass and said the gunpowder burns on Martin’s gray hoodie were CLEARLY visible.”

I have edited abcnews article by putting in uppercase what I believe are key words.

@tchoupi, you raised same questions I did when the bloody head photo first appeared and witness states they could clearly see gun powder residue. How was that even possible?! I look forward to John being called as a witness…he’s given misleading statements, first on 911 call, then next day to Fox.

I want the witness “John’s” phone records and relationship to Zimmerman reviewed and disclosed. You don’t randomly help a stranger cover up a murder — if covering up a murder is indeed what John has helped do.

If I’m correctly understanding the NBC News report I just posted in the update section, the 1/4 inch single abrasion on Trayvon Martin’s ring finger was the only other injury to his body. There were no injured knuckles.

The way I understood the article is that there were only two injuries on TM’s body: one is the gun shot, the other is the cut below the knuckle on the the left hand finger.
It would be interesting to know if TM was left handed.
Per GZ’s statement, only one punch was thrown to the nose and that’s how TM would have started the fight that lead to his own death. The rest of the time was about banging GZ’s head, or suffocating him or fighting for his gun. So, it is not clear how the black eyes were made. Since black eye is a bruise, is it possible that the bleeding from the nose caused the black eyes by mean of blood flooding under the skin from the sinus
area?
Anyhow, if TM was throwing punches at GZ to break free as I’m supposing above, I guess he used both fits.

One interesting input from the report is that no stitch was required confirming GZ’s wounds were superficial.

I agree that it doesn’t take much to bleed from the nose. It happened to me at sport quite a few times after being hit on the nose. It may look impressive but is not necessarily an indication of something bad.

The entry would is deemed intermediate. Add whatever Zimmerman’s arm length is (or at a minimum 1/2 his arm length) to whatever measures they come up with for the intermediate wound.

Any way you look at it, that means George Zimmerman is lying about when he shot Trayvon Martin. It’s physically impossible to accomplish.

Other notes.. The can of Arizona Iced Tea does not appear to be dented, so it was not used as a weapon against Zimmerman. It was found inside Martin’s pockets before the officers attempting CPR removed it. (Evidence dump page 20: http://www.scribd.com/doc/93960335/Documents#fullscreen)

The NYT article also mentions that the Sanford police department did NOT take a picture of the back of Zimmerman’s head — only the front showing the bloody nose. According to the article, SPD took the photo with a cell phone and then forgot to download the picture for several days. Yeah right!

Important – does anybody have a link or source stating the device the original bloodied head picture was taken with? I thought I read in the comments section of the original blog posting that the date/time stamp was verified. By who and how?

If the date/time stamp was only verified by ABC News and not the investigators, this is the same mainstream media that first used the “most sophisticated equipment around” to report Zimmerman may have said “f_cking coons” only days later to say he may have said “f_cking cold.”

It was verified by the news organization. However, this is not a complex operation and this is not about bringing a signal above the noise level. With the proper tool, you can easily extract data embedded by your digital information into your picture.
More generally, this is a privacy issue since by handing out a digital picture taken from a smart phone, you give away more than what you think and tat may include when, where and even information on the owner of the phone.
There are tools to clean up a picture from that can of information.

Oh, I agree – it’s very simple. But, I don’t trust somebody trying to sell a story with a very simple task though…as we saw with the CNN “f_cking coons” enhancement. Any word if investigators have confirmed the picture’s authenticity?

And, I should note – I’m not saying the picture was faked. At all. I’m just trying to confirm that the authorities have confirmed the picture’s authenticity.

At the scene, or not long after, they may ave been able to find an emergency number on it, from whom they could have found out who he was.

But they can’t really go calling the last 5 people you called (Pizza Hut, your aunt, cab service etc) with “Hi, I’m from the XYZ police. Can you tell me whose phone I am ringing from? it’s just that we can’t ask him ‘cos he’s been shot dead?”

Well of course they can’t. So next morning, when he’s identified, unlocking the phone loses any urgency it may have had. In fact with no evidence he was on a call at the time of death, no urgency at all.

Meanwhile of course DeeDee doesn’t think it’s important, as the guy who did it was apprehended at the scene and admitted it, so he’s going to be charged, right? surely he is….

TM’s phone only becomes important when she finally does state that he told her about being followed etc., after it becomes obvious the guy is not going to be charged.

Everyone else’s phone records become important when there are doubts about GZ having come across TM by accident, and queries about who else did what in the aftermath.

IF GZ got a call from some other resident (say Taaffe) about someone acting suspiciously, just before “going to Target”, that would put the entire story into a different light.

For all we know GZ could have made another call/s between hanging up the 911 call and the confrontation starting. That, too, could be extremely relevant.

Phone records from the immediate aftermath would go towards showing any possible coverups. Who was GZ talking to, in the photo of the back of his head?

The police not getting into TM’s phone for days is not all that important.

It definitely explains why it could have taken awhile (ambiguous) for DeeDee to be contacted. Even though, the timing of Dee Dee coming publicly forward through attorneys doesn’t matter in this case. At all.

I want to know if the Neighborhood Watch crew used CB radios for communication. Seeing that Zimmerman’s car wasn’t secured, we’ll likely never know unless somebody from the NW comes forward.

Why do CBs matter? As Zimmerman pulled the trigger, he knew his phone records would be investigated. Just like he knew to say it was he – not Trayvon – crying for help in the event somebody overheard those cries. If Zimmerman had much to hide – like phone records showing calls to/from accomplices aiding in his stalking, harassing and preying – he doesn’t shoot Trayvon.

Some cell phones are two-ways. Unknown if people still use that, but good question. I still want to know how Zimmerman expected the witness Jon (I think) to know his wife’s phone number when he told him to caller her to let him know he’s shot someone.

I don’t recall Witness 13 telling anyone how he knew Zimmerman’s wife’s telephone number. In the evidence dump, Witness 13 says he called Zimmerman’s wife at Zimmerman’s request. Nobody asked during the interviews how he would know the number to call her. Witness 13 does state the he does not know Zimmerman or Trayvon Martin. Witness 13 took 3 pics of Zimmerman and the crime scene, BUT after Zimmerman altered the crime scene.

But, if you have an email subscription, you can comment on posts that are closed as many times as you like. Just go back into your trash folder and dig out a post and click reply.
Hope this helps some.

I’m only going off memory but everybody on Zimmerman’s team acted dumb during the bond hearing about how much money was in the PayPal account, correct? Did they ever say and/or deny what the money would be going towards? It would be interesting to see the login history with IP addresses.

When are they going to nail Zimmerman for lying under oath about Trayvon’s age during the bond hearing?

The fact that the stippling is symmetrical (2 inches square) suggests that the bullet entered the chest straight on, not an an angle. When a bullet enters at an angle, the stippling is elliptical, and heavier nearer the gun, because the gunpowder and particulates leaving the gun barrel spray out in a cone-shaped pattern. (Warning, pictures of gunshot wounds: http://www.bevfitchett.com/gunshot-wounds/cm.html)

It is impossible to actually give an exact distance fired, or even an estimated distance, until one takes the weapon (or a gun from the same manufacurer) and does sets of three test fires at 0, 3, 6, 12, 18, 24, and 30 inches. These results are then compared to the actual documented wound, soot, stippling etc. (http://www.firearmsid.com/A_diststandards.htm)

The gunshot residue can penetrate clothing and mark the skin. The reports I was finding were not particularly precise about what exactly was marked with the soot ring and stippling. A T-shirt would almost certainly allow some of the residue through to the skin, but the report doesn’t say if the marks are on the body or the clothing.

If we’re talking about marks on the clothes, we can make estimates based on the soot and stippling. Stippling marks are absent if the shot is fired from 4-15 feet away, depending on the gun and ammo. Visible soot has a maximum range of 6-10 inches, so that’s the maximum distance of the soot to the gun. (http://books.google.com/books?id=Y4Nvl1kan58C)

However here, they’re saying that this is the medical examiner’s report, and that suggests that we’re talking about marks on the body of Trayvon Martin. The distance calibration in the prior paragraph becomes useless, because without specific test pattern data shooting Zimmerman’s gun through a T-shirt and possibly the hoodie, we don’t know how much of the gunshot residue would have penetrated the cloth. Ball powder will go through clothing, flake powder usually does not. One would need specific data on the ammunition in use to be more specific.

NLME, the guy’s up for Murder 2 already. No need to throw the whole book at him.

Swearing to tell the truth, whole truth and nothing but is a formality. It is the defendant’s JOB to tell as many fibs as necessary to get off. Prosecution’s to catch him out on it.

Besides, he didn’t outright lie. He just uses vague terms that are easy to misinterpret. What is “young” ? what is a “couple of years” ?

“I didn’t know he was unarmed” translates to “I suspected that he was”.

What time frame is covered by “and then……….” ? immediate? 2 minutes? 5 minutes? if the listener is silly enough to assume immediate, that is a lot of action he doesn’t have to explain.

The PayPal issue is different. A lie by omission. Very technically not “his” money. They asked specific questions, do you own the house? what’s the equity? how much is the car worth? nobody asked do you have a PayPal and what’s in that, so “okay” to not mention it. Like “okay” to forget a loud argument before being “jumped”.

Thanks for posting that the reports are that the gunshot did not exit the body. I had read that elsewhere, too. Based on other news I read, the bullet type was a hollow-point which is designed not to exit the body.

The fact that the stippling is symmetrical (2 inches square) suggests that the bullet entered the chest straight on, not an an angle. When a bullet enters at an angle, the stippling is elliptical, and heavier nearer the gun, because the gunpowder and particulates leaving the gun barrel spray out in a cone-shaped pattern. (Warning, pictures of gunshot wounds: http://www.bevfitchett.com/gunshot-wounds/cm.html)

It is impossible to actually give an exact distance fired, or even an estimated distance, until one takes the weapon (or a gun from the same manufacurer) and does sets of three test fires at 0, 3, 6, 12, 18, 24, and 30 inches. These results are then compared to the actual documented wound, soot, stippling etc. (http://www.firearmsid.com/A_diststandards.htm)

The gunshot residue can penetrate clothing and mark the skin. The reports I was finding were not particularly precise about what exactly was marked with the soot ring and stippling. A T-shirt would almost certainly allow some of the residue through to the skin, but the report doesn’t say if the marks are on the body or the clothing.

If we’re talking about marks on the clothes, we can make estimates based on the soot and stippling. Stippling marks are absent if the shot is fired from 4-15 feet away, depending on the gun and ammo. Visible soot has a maximum range of 6-10 inches, so that’s the maximum distance of the soot to the gun. (http://books.google.com/books?id=Y4Nvl1kan58C)

However here, they’re saying that this is the medical examiner’s report, and that suggests that we’re talking about marks on the body of Trayvon Martin. The distance calibration in the prior paragraph becomes useless, because without specific test pattern data shooting Zimmerman’s gun through a T-shirt and possibly the hoodie, we don’t know how much of the gunshot residue would have penetrated the cloth. Ball powder will go through clothing, flake powder usually does not. One would need specific data on the ammunition in use to be more specific.

This certainly explains why GZ has no defensive wounds to go with his claimed offensive ones. It also is a good fit with TM’s gf’s claims that he said “Why are you following me?” That “push” or other physical reaction, in response to a question that should have drawn a verbal reply, is yet another piece of evidence that GZ escalated hostilities yet again. I’d say that GZ would look pretty darned frightening in the dark there, with his face screwed up in anger. My guess would be that TM tried to turn and run, but was prevented by GZ’s reaction of probably grabbing TM’s arm or clothes trying to hold him.

The argument would probably have been TM crying let go of me, who are you? What are you doing? With GZ getting more and more antsy realizing, if the cops found him there, holding the suspect, with a fire arm on him, after he had said that he wasn’t following, he’d have a whole lot of explaining to do.
He certainly doesn’t want to become a failed Neighborhood Watch Captain!
Not to add to his life long history of other failures.

The things that interested me the most were in the witness interviews. In the very long one, it goes from the witnesses handwriting to another handwriting of a transcript of a Q and A. It describes the argument and says the loud voice was “demanding and angry”. I can’t be sure of the first word. Then the questioner asks “demanding and argumentative?” It makes me think is Zimmerman confronting Trayvon like he is attempting to detain or fake arrest him.

The other big thing is one of the witness statements says she sees two men chasing each other towards the top of the T, about 10-12 inches apart. We know from the DD call that Trayvon wasn’t lying in wait to ambush Zimmerman, he was in fact surprised to see the stalker again. So I find it hard to imagine how TM would chase GZ towards the T. So it must have been GZ chasing TM. But towards the T? Then GZ came between the buildings? Or Maybe the confrontation was elsewhere, and DD heard an initial confrontation, then a longer chase ensued. Or maybe the chase was after TM knocked GZ to the ground where he bonked his head. Then maybe gz chased TM turned him around and shot him. But that doesn’t seem to fit the audio.

We also have the one statement in the autopsy that GZ shot TM and TM fell to the ground.

There were also some interesting partial notes on the bottom of one autopsy page that suggested a different characterization of the case when it was handed to the autopsy. “face down. Confronted by resident, fought, then shot to ground 911” then “called 911, confronted, then shot”.

2 different DNA samples on gun grip but martin has been ruled out as being one of them. There was blood under trayvons nails but no dna foreign to him so it must have been his blood…ME2A AND ME2B are the clippings from his right and left fingernails.

ME8 is trayvons shirt -Zimmermans blood was on trayvons clothes, there is a possibility of another dna contributor (??). On trayvons right cuff/sleeve there were no traces of dna foreign to trayvon. ME12 trayvons hoodie – no blood on his hoodie cuffs either left or right.

It says that TM’s headset was found in his pocket?!? I thought he was wearing it and it fell off??? If so, how did it get in his pocket?

The Skittles and Iced Tea were also found in the pocket of his hoodie.

I noted that there were two witnesses who saw GZ on the ground, with nobody on top of him.

Another anomaly is that one witness says that GZ was on the ground calling for help, with no one on top of him, and a neighbor who couldn’t be identified, was asking him if he needed help. And these accounts appear to have been from before the fatal shot was fired or heard.

I also noted that GZ had on a grey shirt under his jacket! Hmmm?!? eh?

As the story goes from GZ, he should never be on the ground, at any time alone, without TM either around or on top of him. But, it seems that he was seen on the ground with no one around but a neighbor asking him if he needed help.

The only speculation I can come up with that fits this would be:

GZ locates TM in hiding somehow, before TM sees him (phone rings?).
He then rolls himself on the ground, bangs his head on the sidewalk front and back, then goes and drags TM from his hiding place, throws his jacket
on TM on the ground and gets on top of him briefly, TM calls for help, GZ then gets up, puts his jacket back on, while TM gets up and then shoots him.

Okay, I just cobbled that together in a “quick and dirty” attempt to account for the evidence. It is admittedly weird.

When a headset falls off (or is snatched off), you, as a listener on the other end, don’t know where it falls or where it lands. It could fall inside your jacket. It could fall to the ground. It could be snatched off of you and land in somebody else’s pocket. Your opinion of where a headset falls is most likely formed after the fall and what you can hear afterwards.

The Wall Street Journal posted an article regarding all of the evidence that has been reported over the last few days. There’s over 100 pages worth of witness statements and the autopsy report is included. The documents are in the second link below. I find it interesting some of the media is reporting all of these injuries to TM’s knuckles when it turns out there was a small abrasion 1/4 x 1/8″ to his ring finger BELOW the knuckle. I am not sure why it’s not posted on the 18th Circuit Court website yet.

Uh oh, GZ is toast!!! The guy who says TM was on top of GZ, is obviously lying! Since GZ could not possibly shoot TM, with a nearly level shot that goes almost straight through his body. From GZ’s position on the bottom, the shot would have to go left or right and upwards through TM, because, being on the ground places severe limits on the range of motion for the hands, wrists and elbows.

The left ventricle of the heart only covers a very small area of the lung. Thus a shot that goes through them both, has to be in a pretty straight line.

Now, I’ve tried a few variations of position and learned it’s not entirely impossible to get a straight through level shot from a prone position. But it’s not only incredibly difficult, there’s another factor we have to remember.
The person sitting on top of you, at this point, knows you have a gun.
So, he’s not going to be just sitting their waiting for you to take your best aim. In fact he’s going to be in a superior position to prevent you from getting in a shot, from any difficult-to-reach angle. So, be sure to factor that in, when trying to figure what more than likely happened.

Both people standing makes the most sense, because that allows for the shot to be easily achieved, even if taken at random. While the other way, you need some very special conditions indeed.

The witness “John” had a few chances to come clean already. I wonder if Angela Corey gives him a few more chances.

Do we know the times for all the 911 calls yet? I’d like to know when “John” called. Did investigators fingerprint the area around the shooting scene to see if Trayvon was breaking into houses or anything suspicious?

If so, maybe George’s fingerprints are around that same area? Maybe even on “John’s” door and/or door knocker?

If Zimmerman’s fingerprints were around “John’s” property, why? Not to get his address — you’d never bother somebody for their address when you can go around the corner to the front of their house…which would also subsequently have brought Zimmerman closer to his parked vehicle — where he should have been waiting for Police.

There may be family videos of Trayvon that will show his demeanor and comportment. His teachers and others, like shopkeepers, store clerks, librarians and others in both neighborhoods who have come into contact
with Trayvon who can testify as to the childs demeanor and comportment.
It will not be that of a ruffian or delinquent, but of a very respectful and harmless, likeable child. Nowhere will be found anyone who is frightened
by Trayvon’s comportment. Thus, I can safely conclude that GZ was in almost total control of events.

This explains what GZ was doing on the ground, separated from TM’s body.
Because, by this time, TM would already be dead and not capable of moving around. The witness who saw GZ on the ground, with TM’s body not visible, probably had a bad angle and just couldn’t see it. As if viewing from between buildings or from behind a window or door where the fixtures or frame obscured some of the view.

NLME,
I can’t remember where, but I saw the time on “John’s” call was 1 minute after the shot. His witness report says he heard the shot when he was going upstairs, then he looked outside before he called 911.

His statements actually seem consistent to me. My guess is that his stating he would call the police got Trayvon to get up to run from the fight (where he was on top). Zimmerman took that moment to get up and shoot Martin.

But the part I can’t merge is how that gets into the calls for help.
Do the voices change? Could the first two cries be Zimmerman, and the last one Trayvon?

Or does John tell the truth, but leave out the space of time, maybe a minute, between when he was outside, and when he heard the shot?

wow bunny in that first link notice the witness that saw 2 men running towards the T with a FLASHLIGHT BETWEEN THEM……so unless they were practising the baton change in the relay for the olympics that means george was chasing trayvon.

NLME and Sprout, I too listened to 911 call placed by John and it displayed the actual time of call…it only lasted for about 1 or 2 mins max. I believe it began at 7:17 and ended around 7:18. Remember, he’s also same person that took photo of GZ’s head so was back down stairs by 7:19 which is time stamp on cell phone.

and what about the witness who said he saw a black guy on top of a white or hispanic..???? really, you could see that george may have been hispanic…i wouldn’t have picked him for hispanic even in the light of day. He couldn’t identify the men because of the lighting conditions, but could see that zimmerman may have been white or hispanic. It just seems to be a little bit too much information..this is also the guy that said martin was hitting zimmerman MMA style…sounds exaggerated. Wow and the witness (presumably the kid) who said a man in red was laying on the ground yelling for help like they couldn’t get up, like they had slipped, but DID NOT SEE ANYONE ELSE. Martin must have already been standing.

I am thinking the same thing. I think Trayvon made it to the back porch & thought he was safe. He sat on his back porch continued his conversation with DeeDee. George could hear Trayvon talking finds him on Brandy’s back porch and that’s when Trayvon tells DeeDee the guy is back. What are you following me for? What are you doing around here. Scuffle starts. Deedee hears Trayvon saying Get off get off then the phone dies. At this point I think Trayvon managed to get the lunatic off by kicking his butt and ran off after spotting the gun. George was probably furious from getting his butt handed to him and gave chase. George manages to catch Trayvon or Trayvon slips in the wet grass up near the T. Trayvon yells for help while George is on top of Trayvon. George shoots his weapon. I think George turned the body over searching for weapons or burglary equipment. Anything to justify the killing.

Only if you admit that using your own criteria that George Zimmerman who was tattooed is a thug. If you say that George Zimmerman didn’t have removable prank rims and there he is not the thug, you’ll be telling on yourself (as being unaware, out of touch, and unforgiving of teenage antics). Both Trayvon Martin and George Zimmerman were tatted. Trayvon had his mother’s name as a tatto and George Zimmerman had somebody named “Christina” tatted on his chest.

Additionally, the tattoos were of praying hands on his arm and his mom’s name was on his wrist. The only thug in this situation was George. We know of his domestic violence complaint, the assault on a cop, he disparaged Mexicans on his MySpace, and bullied his Middle Eastern co worker. Trayvon was by no means perfect but certainly doesn’t have a history of violence documented by the police like George.

“One witness in the case, a girlfriend of Trayvon’s, was nowhere near the scene. She was on the phone with him, calling from South Florida. The girlfriend told prosecutors the two were talking when Trayvon encountered Zimmerman.

“He was telling me that there was a man watching him,” she said, according to the records. She said Trayvon told her he was walking away. The phone disconnected. She called back.”

It look’s like the 6:54 PM- call lasted about 18 min. and the 7:12 about 4 Min. both TM’s female friend. This is huge!!!!

Huge? I think not. This was established long ago. What is interesting, however is the lengthy duration of time.

Neighborhood watch exists because the neighborhood has a history of crime problems. Those crimes have been done by… no need to state the obvious, but since crimes of the sort they had been experiencing were not committed by women, then a woman wouldn’t be considered as suspicious… you get the idea? If the truth is offensive, that’s just too bad, the truth doesn’t get changed, only denied or ignored.

Now then. Consider how long it would take someone to walk from the entrance the his father’s girlfriend’s place. Not 22+ minutes to be sure. Think on that hard. Was he really just walking around or was there something about his path and behavior which raised suspicion? If he were walking directly, he would have been safely at his father’s girlfriend’s place in about 5 minutes.

This really makes it seem like something else was afoot.

And let’s not forget that this is a gated community with an organized watch group. This means that everyone knows everyone else at least as far as who actually lives there. Martin did not and that naturally contributes to his being classified as suspicious.

And since it turns out that the neighborhood is actually quite diverse, I think it’s reasonable to presume that Martin’s ethnic background had less to do with his being identified as suspicious. Once again, looking into Zimmerman’s activities and associations, he does not demonstrate any visible hatred or fear of black people. He’s just not a good candidate for a “hate criminal.” Too many black friends and neighbors for that to be the case.

So why was Martin taking so much time going through such a small gated community? Weird right?

So I agree… it’s huge in the sense that Martin was “not suspicious and definitely belonged there.”

“Neighborhood watch exists because the neighborhood has a history of crime problems.”

“but since crimes of the sort they had been experiencing were not committed by women, then a woman wouldn’t be considered as suspicious.”

How many people were arrested breaking into houses in this gated community? How many of them were black? How many people were arrested in Seminole county for breaking into houses? How many of them were black?

Those facts would not be popular here, I promise you. And even if 100% were black males, people here would decry “profiling! you can’t do that! It’s wrong!” In a sense, that’s true. You shouldn’t rely on profiling. And that’s what I was getting at.

It took a ridiculously long time for Martin to make the walk and he hadn’t even completed it when he felt he was being watched. Actions like these should be considered suspicious. It was raining. He should have been hurrying to his father’s girlfriend’s house. (Note that I do not say “home” or his father’s home… it was neither and therefore he was a stranger to this gated community with an organized neighborhood watch who should know everyone there.)

It’s a gated community with a neighborhood watch program. “Suspicion” is built into the equation isn’t it?

Let’s get the facts! It will be fun. Make sure you get the average age of people arrested for breaking into houses in both the gated community and Seminole county. George seemed to think Trayvon was in his teens.

You were in the military, right? You’re not going to blow up any federal buildings like McVeigh did in Oklahoma City, right?

That question pissed you off — didn’t it? You think other people who get profiled are happy about it?

I am definitely not happy being profiled. I am a white, middle-aged, professional male with a background in military and security training. I get profiled because I’m white and because I’m male. I get denied opportunities afforded to “protected class” people. When crimes based on hatred of white males occur, hate crime laws do not apply to me because the laws were written only to defend a “protected class.” (Fact: no hate crime charges have ever been prosecuted where the victim was white.)

Believe me, it bugs me. I’m a male. I can’t be trusted around women. Here’s a stupid story that surprised me. For more than a year, I used the gym and the shower facilities at my office building. The door was never locked. I just go in and shower and go right? It never occurred to me that the women’s shower was locked and women were issued keys to their shower room. I only found out because a woman who was leaving the company left her key with me and explained to me what the key was for. I was like “What? The door’s locked? Why? Mine’s not locked!” Turns out that women need protection from men, but not the other way around. Seems unfair somehow doesn’t it.

I was actually offended to discover this. Some people think it’s perfectly reasonable. But it would never have occurred to me to enter the women’s rest room. They aren’t normally locked. The only difference between this restroom and others is that a shower is in there. Then it hit me that because I’m male, I cannot be trusted around women behind an unlocked door. What assumptions or presumptions are at play? Well, the woman who gave me the key didn’t think it was “bad” to profile men as potentially dangerous, but that was the explanation she offered…

This rural “neighborhood” in Michigan established a Neighborhood Watch so that the few surrounding houses could warn “suspicious” people that the area is being watched/protected…by any means necessary.

The boy said “Please” and “Thank you” to the 711 store clerk. His parents were not around, so he was speaking from “compulsion”, it’s what you are taught that is reflected in the way that you act. For example I was taught as a kid to sit up straight. So for many, many years as an adult, I always sat up straight, I still do when I catch myself slumping down in a chair.

We also used to call people Sir, Mrs and Miss when we were addressing older people, and please and thank you were drummed into our skulls. It became casual and reflexive. Meaning that TM was no thug! So, out goes Zimmerman’s attempt to attribute “smart-alerky” or gangsta talk to TM, he just wouldn’t do it, not if he says please and thank you to store clerks.

To reach the level of civility where you speak like that to people, who are basically servants, who do not expect it, don’t ask for it and don’t require it, you can not be someone who is generally disrespecting. To get a child to act respectfully, even when a parent is not around, takes long term training and admonishment at every transgression of etiquette over a very long time.

So now I can judge that TM’s demeanor was respectful and fearful of GZ!
GZ has shot and killed a very mild mannered child, there is no possibility that he was attacked by such a kid, zero! Such children, raised to be civil and respectful of others, just can’t bring himself to hit an adult no matter what. His only other option is to try to get away, which I believe he did, but was prevented.

So, in my opinion GZ’s injuries are fabricated somehow and are not obtained from Trayvon. An opinion that is backed up by the lack of evidence of any fight, on Trayvon’s body.

Which means that GZ has had help! People he knew have come to his aid or otherwise attempted to act on his behalf. This killing by GZ, looks to me to be, something GZ was intent on, but hesitant to do. But he finally managed to get over his qualms and pull the trigger, then let the “chips” fall where they may!
But, it seems to me, there has to have been somethings in past, in his relationships with police and certain others in the community, that gave him the confidence to go through with it. To do this thing, GZ had to believe that there would be people in position to help him substantially.

He pulled his gun, without provocation and fired! He was in no danger of anything from this child and he knew it!

“He again started walking. she told Trayvon to keep running, but “he said he ain’t gonna run. He said he’s right by his father’s house.”

“And in a couple minutes, he said the man’s following him again, he’s behind him,” she said. “I say, ‘Run,'” but he replies he’s too tired, breathing “real hard.”

“Then he tells me the guy is getting close,” she said. “Next I hear, ‘Why are you following me for?'”

She said she then heard a man’s voice ask, “What are you doing around here?” She calls out, “Trayvon, what’s going on?” but he doesn’t answer. “I hear something like, ‘bawmp.’ … You could hear that somebody bumped Trayvon. Cuz I could hear the grass.”

So Zimmerman knocked Martin or his phone down to the grass near his father’s house. Then we know the lady next to Taaffe saw a chase between two men, 10-12 in apart, go by her back door towards the top of the T….

I think the map at the moment is based on GZ and gun buddy Taaffe’s cover story. It doesn’t account for the close chase.

I think after they got to the top of the T, TM attempted to get away and punched his attacker in the face, knocking GZ to the pavement. TM straddled GZ and slapped him. TM gets up to go home. GZ gets up and pulls him again. TM turns around, sees the gun, lets out the anguished scream, and GZ shoots him in the chest. TM grabs his wound, getting his own blood in his fingernails and moves to run home again. He collapses from the hollow point bullet wound, right on his hands. The bullet has shattered and does not leave an exit wound, instead fragments tear up TMs insides.

GZ then straddles TM and holds him down, as TM cries for someone to help him and gurgles, making the Taaffe’s neighbor think she might hear Taaffe (the old man next door) having a heart attack.

As GZ is holding TM down, the blood drips from his head scratch onto the back of TMs hoodie. You can see Zimmerman had his head facing down by the way the blood ran down towards his ear.

That the phone was dropped to the ground is a reasonable assumption but even that detail is not known for certain. Hearing “grass” or the sound of a phone being put into a pocket can be remarkably similar.

What would be more likely (and I am not purporting this as fact) is that Martin was preparing for a physical confrontation and as part of that, emptying one’s hands for the purposes of readiness would be quite logical.

What is interesting about the statement by the girlfriend on the phone is that there was dialogue between the two parties. One asks “why are you following?” The other asks “why are you here?” This is a discussion and nothing about it indicates that it needed to go further than that and nothing in the testimony suggests that it did. That the phone was out of Martin’s hand is “likely” but everything after that is pure speculation and imagination.

And what’s this “they”? “Gun buddy”? Really? Do you imagine people have gun friends?

“And what’s this “they”? “Gun buddy”? Really? Do you imagine people have gun friends?”

This is true. I’ve been to gun events. People of varying backgrounds are brought together only because of their love for guns. The most recent one was awesome — we all got loaded, people talked about guns for a few hours, and I observed.

#6 seems to be indicating the arrow pointing to something in the grass in photo #48. Is something there? Is it the crushed grass?

The phone on the ground seems to corroborate Dee Dee’s story of hearing their verbal exchange, then the phone was dropped. (If Trayvon jumped Zimmerman, Trayvon would have has his phone in his pocket… not have it in his hand to drop it).

There is a comment in the police report that an officer was using a metal detector to look for the casing. He got a strong tone where he dropped a market. Another officer found the casing “just inches away” from that marker.

Check out photos #41 and #44 (GZ’s feet). I don’t know for sure (I’m on my Nook tablet) but it looks like bits of grass are all over the toes, but the heels and cuffs of his jeans are clean. Seems to me there should be a LOT more debris on his heels and grass stains on the cuffs if he’d been on the bottom of a wrestling-type scuffle….

something i noticed in your link to the crime scene photo’s. At the scene someone took photos of the head wounds as they bled. Zimmerman was cleaned up on the scene and was driven to the police station, we can see that the back of his head has small wounds but they had not bled on the trip to the station, nor did they bleed whilst on camera in the parking garage or as he walked through the corridors…..so why is it that there is blood running down his head in the later photos taken at the police station? hmmmm

I think we are looking at dried blood on Zimmerman’s head. I have no way of knowing, but the pattern of the dried blood is evidence that the bleeding occurred while Zimmerman was standing/leaning over someone, not underneath someone.

I have a lot of questions about those bloody head pictures too. If they were cleaned up by the EMTs or cops,( I have heard both), at the scene. how did they get those bloody head photos at the station or were those taken at the scene? They must have been taken at the scene because the EMTs would not have let him leave with the possibility of that much bleeding still occurring. I keep seeing that those photos were taken at the station but this must be impossible. Like Jo say the video at the station shows no such bleeding. Did they have time to take those photos at the scene considering the time in between when the first cop arrived at the scene and the time they arrived at the station. Also the enhanced picture ABC showed of George with all the blood on his head, that was supposedly taken by the person at the scene that GZ asked to call his wife, did anyone else notice how enhanced the blood stains are? That picture was apparently photoshopped and quite different from the evidence photos released.

Good day all,
Im new here and I have read every comment. 🙂 So, with that said, I would just like to give some comments on what I observed from some of the evidence, in particular the 7-11 surveillance video, being that Trayvon is portrayed/assumed to be a “Kind”/”Good” boy in his younger age/years, then a young boy who progresses over the years into a teenage “Thug”.

Well, I noticed in the video how Trayvon the “Thug” pants were not sagging at the initial approach to the 7-11 counter and his pants only went way below his behind/butt and sagged when he went to retrieve his money to pay for the items he wanted.

Then, you will see that Trayvon pulls his pants back up before leaving the store and he pulls them “way up” and as he comes back to the other direction you see his pants are still up and not sagging.

This is a positive action in my humble observation and opinion, as I am a mother who has two children, who are Males, 17 and 23 years of age.
I have my own story that relates.

It seems that Trayvon was trying. He was trying to change his ways, to pull his pants up says to me that he did not want to be seen as a “Thug” as his behavior had not been what it should have been,as I know no mother wants their child to behave in that manner, but things do happen, and can happen to any of our children.

I always have wondered if Trayvons mother had a therapist, counselor, pastor or a mentor for Trayvon, as it is a fact he was in need of some guidance so desperately.

Can’t find it. Been looking for it. One thing that has crossed my mind during all of this is that so many people saw Trayvon Martin that night and didn’t find his demeanor to be anything that warranted a call to the police to report suspicious behavior. Only George Zimmerman. Why? Was it the uppers and downers Zimmerman was on that led him to hallucinate and behave aggressively in response to his med-induced hallucinations?

i think it’s good he has had the balls to admit he was making assumptions, i suppose it’s an easy one to make. So many people in this case have picked a side and will stick to it no matter how many times they have to twist and turn to make the new evidence fit their agenda, so thankfully this guy realised he had mixed his assumptions with facts when he spoke earlier. Either that or he thinks people are onto him and he’s waving the white flag haha

Exactly. Angela Corey is doing a great job making sure everybody has an opportunity to tighten up the loose ends of their stories.

I think “John” has a little bit more to remember between now and when he takes the stand. I’ve always thought something was a little off with “John” since 3/27 when I first heard his 911 call.

Meaning, after “John” heard the shot – so, there was no longer a fight – he was a little too casual (ring a bell?) and adamant (I’d NEVER, EVER put myself in the position of being outside during the fight/shooting) about not going to help/see what was up.

The picture of a man, acting the way he says he did, when witnessing a fight, taking place on his back yard, just does not seem normal. A fight, usually get’s a mans juices flowing, especially when they’re not the target of either subject.
So, the normal thing to do, absent any weapons being used, is to go over and poke, prod and issue warnings “okay guys break it up”. What guy can resist the chance to sound authoritative and be completely in the right at the same time? As a general rule, it’s these urges to get involved that is the male downfall, not running away, even when we sometimes know that we should.

This is why John’s admonishments ring so false. The fight presented no apparent danger to him, so why should he be so cautious? Add that he knew GZ, and what do you get?

Now that I think about it, since GZ was taking so much time shooting TM, I kinda couldn’t help but speculate what if? What if John were part of something sinister? What if his appearance was merely to signal “hurry up GZ, we’re running out of time”, Then, what if, GZ can’t do it? So John takes the gun, shoots, wipes and drops it on the ground, then goes back inside to hide out, and/or make a cya 911 call. Well, in that event, GZ would pick up the gun and put it back in his holster, never touching the trigger again, after it had been wiped.

That would explain the oddity of GZ not having his fingerprints on the trigger of the gun he owned and used. Of course, theories and speculation are not evidence as we all well know. But, we all know that to formulate theories that may lead to discovery, we have to do the “what if” processes first. Only after doing that, can we then start finding the evidence needed to throw the “what ifs” out.

“Going deep” will be left to the FBI, who is also re-interviewing witnesses, collecting electronic communications and doing deep background on all involved. As they have said, they will pass their findings along to the SP.
But this means that the SP doesn’t even have it all. But the FBI isn’t covered by the discovery orders, so they can selectively release to the SP and everyone else. But it seems that “going deep” has uncovered enough to provoke witnesses to change their stories. I wonder what Taaffe’s story will change to? Stay tuned.

At the time GZ took the heat, he had the upper hand and the back up apparatus in place. So, if he believed that, then he wouldn’t think he’d
have to worry much about consequences at that point in time.

At that point in time he had, everyone who mattered, on his side.
And it certainly did turn out to be a “cake walk”. At least for the
first 46 days. So, for and during that time he would be a “superman”,
and he was as long as things remained under local control.

The only time that he needed a straight story, came 46 days later, when things heated up on the national scene. Something they never imagined would happen. If not for the national outrage, GZ would still be taking bows locally.

Now he’s on the griddle, he realizes that he can’t change his story
yet again. At least not now, or in this way, because that makes it
a conspiracy to commit murder one. He’s found himself locked in by
his own admissions.

– Anonymous witness says: George Zimmerman has racist tendencies and that she “stays away from Zimmerman because he’s racist and because of things he’s done to her in the past, but she didn’t elaborate on what happened between them. ‘I don’t at all know who this kid was or anything else. But I know George, and I know that he does not like black people. He would start something. He’s very confrontational. It’s in his blood. We’ll just say that,’’. Supposedly this call is recorded.

– A former co-worker at Zimmerman’s previous job who gave a statement that Zimmerman bullied him prior to Zimmerman’s firing said that Zimmerman wanted to “get in’’ with the clique at work so he exaggerated a Middle Eastern accent and when talking about him and repeatedly referred to him to other co-workers as a “fucking moron”. The employee told investigators that Zimmerman made reference to terrorists and bombings when talking about him, the man told investigators. The employee said Zimmerman was fired for his repeated calls to HR to complain about other managers and employees.
—- http://bostonglobe.com/news/nation/2012/05/17/autopsy-evidence-marijuana-martin-blood/A3rLl2WfLoUBQtyjWFfoYJ/story.html

Who are the two people here (pic #34 at Orlando Sentinel’s evidence release dump)?

The picture seems to be of a black guy wearing a white thermal and a hat and someone else (possibly a female companion) in a hallway in an apartment community unrelated to the the townhouse community of Retreat where the Zimmerman slaying of Trayvon Martin occurred.

yeah it could be, but i think nlme is correct. Even though they weren’t near the crime scene the investigators have to cross off every detail. I think the time stamp at the bottom of the photo says it’s around 10.30 so that matches with what tracy martin told the police.

Clearly, if you only grazed over the evidence, you would miss the fact that John never saw the shooting. The two witnesses who do, claim there was no fighting before they heard the pop. I am trying to figure out if they were actually separated.

I think being separated at the time of the shot is consistent with:
-No blood on Zimmerman’s clothes
-The shot went straight into Martin’s chest (no angle), even though the gun was at least a couple of inches away.
-Martin’s final position

yes and the young boys initial interview said a man was laying on his back yelling like he couldn’t get up, but there was NO ONE ELSE THERE. He turned to chase the dog and heard the shot. Martin must have got away from the struggle and been standing out of sight of this kid. GZ must have pulled the gun out after trayvon had pulled away from the fight, maybe he stood up pointing the gun and shot because he just lost a fight to a teenager and he was pissed off!!! maybe trayvon was shot when he tried to run. But two witnesses say at the time of the shot there was no fighting. Maybe thats murder 2 right there.

There’s a wrestle, GZ ends on top, pulls the gun, says “stay there and don’t move until the cops get here”. So TM stays on ground but keeps yelling for help. GZ a few steps away, in shadow.

Then he tries to make a dash for it, GZ grabs his front, shoots. Forensics find shirt looks like contact shot, body looks like intermediate. Body falls face down, arms under (in front from trying to grab the gun or the gun arm).

On Huffingtonpost, they’re having a bit of a field day with everything except the evidence. Seems they don’t realize the importance of NW or how it fits properly into the scheme of things, probably because they haven’t bother to read anything about NW, so they’re just speculating and guessing so wrong. I didn’t bother to wade into that fray, maybe later.

In any event, I’ll have to track down some of the terms being used “5th intercostal space” for example. But there’s a diagram at the bottom that shows a left of center chest shot. It looks pretty high to have hit the left ventricle, which I believe is one of the two lower heart chambers. I guess the other report I’d read was some sites own reproduction or interpretation, made to seem like it was taken verbatim from the actual report. So much for placing too much faith in them.

Working with the entrance wound location, it seems pretty darned high on Trayvon’s chest, to have been fired while he was straddling GZ on the ground. Also, (I could be wrong) but the wound path seems to be leftwards and downwards, internally. The hollow point bullet broke apart at some point and the fragments spread. But, there should still be enough evidence of it’s path, left behind before it broke apart, to tell which direction it was moving originally.

Assuming the heart is below the entrance wound, it seems to me, most likely Trayvon was bending over and leaning forward when the shot was fired. As if GZ was holding onto Martin’s right arm with his left hand, when he brought the gun up to fire with his right. If I’m even close to right, the FBI’s experts will now have enough evidence to give the SP an iron clad case. Since this entrance wound, and a downwards wound path, could only mean that they were both standing, with Trayvon bent over towards GZ and turned slightly, as if trying to pull himself away.

In any event, as you will easily see by the marked up image in the report, the entrance wound is much to high to be easily reached, with your back on the ground and the victim sitting on top of you. Worse yet, for any such theory, you’d have to overly extend your arm, giving the one on top, irresistible leverage against you getting a viable shot in that position.

A clue that the other report wasn’t quite as “faithful” was that it mentioned an exit wound, which doesn’t occur because it’s a hollow point round. I’d guess GZ would know that a center chest shot with a hollow point is not a shot, that someone who just fell down, is likely to recover from. The bullet is designed to break apart, even without hitting bone. If the person gets lucky and the fragments don’t strike a vital organ, the person goes down but keeps moving because of the pains. In this case TM’s lungs had collapsed and his heart was torn open. The brain would realize quickly this was fatal and shut down instantly. Yeah, I’ve read about how the brain works to protect one from suffering in the event it detects a fatal wound.

So, I may have been wrong in the details, but it seems I was right about GZ is toast!

When considering bullet entry angles, have a look at the idea that GZ may be left-handed.

The school yearbook pic showed him cutting a pizza with his left hand, when the photo, IMO, would be better balanced if he used his right (so I don’t think he was posed on purpose using the left hand, I think it’s his natural stronger one).

IF someone’s on top of you, but not touching chest to chest, you can end up with a downward trajectory and a 9 inch + distance, if you hold a gun up close to your own face. (easy way to get hit with recoil, too). In this case the path would be shallow, more parallel to the front of the chest than at right angles to it. I don’t know to interpret the damage for that.

That said, the entrance wound can’t be much above the heart, or it would have hit a top part of the heart (where it is wider) instead of the lower ventricle.

Even shot to the heart, a person would not cease to move immediately. The brain still has some blood supply for a second or so, and signals have already gone out to nerves to perform certain actions. Time enough to stagger a step or two in the originally planned direction.

Maybe time to grab at the chest from pure physical reaction. But NO TIME to mentally assess what happened and formulate and pronounce a verbal response to it.

IF and it’s a big if, but IF TM said anything like “you got it”, that was not his last words after being shot. That would be his last words BEFORE being shot, when he lost the struggle for control of the gun. But really, I think his last words were “HELP”.

The autopsy said TM was 71″ (5 feet, 11 inches). The wound was 17 inches down from the top of TM’s head so, if he’d been standing, it would be 54″ (4 feet 6 inches) from the ground. According to this police report: http://cnninsession.files.wordpress.com/2012/03/martinpolicreport.pdf Zimmerman was 5’9″. Shoulder height on a guy who’s 5’9″ is roughly 4’8″.

Is it possible to track the route of TM and GZ’s cellphones by GPS? Are the satellite readings tight enough to figure out where they walked? I’ve been looking for a mapped overview of the evidence photos, to find out where Treyvon’s cell phone was found with no luck so far.

If we take Treyvon’s words to Deedee as his last testimony: he was out of breath and tired because he ran all the way home just prior to the 7:12 pm call from her. Now we suddenly have a completely different scenario than the one George has promulgated. This is the only way Treyvon has to tell his own story, through what he relayed to Deedee while it was happening.

Treyvon said George was approaching him. This would mean George pursued Treyvon the entire length of the dogpath to confront him at his own doorstep. When challenged by his unknown pursuer, Treyvon would have suddenly become fearful and protective for the kid inside the house. He would have again tried to get away and taken off running with George pursuing him closely. I believe George’s (slight) injuries happened as they finally fell to the ground, perhaps with George grabbing for Treyvon but landing on his own nose. If there was any wrestling he easily could have scrapped his head. This explains the lack of physical evidence of any pummeling on either body, and especially on their hands. It is because the bulk of the elapsing time was spent running, not fighting. It also explains the moving argument, the quiet interlude between arguments, and the two running bodies, as reported by witnesses. Treyvon’s mom said that he was home on the back porch talking on the phone, and Taaffe even showed that George was heading “back to his truck” from far down that dogpath. This is becoming a logical explanation, accounting for far more witness statements than simply using witness #6 (Jon’s) view of events. His statement is no more accurate than other witnesses, yet it has predominated in most reports. And now that he has recanted part of his first statement about who might have been screaming for help, he is even less reliable.

The gunshot evidence is damning. They had to be standing. The clothing could have “close” powder burns because George held him by his clothes as he shot him. The cringing, screaming boy would have been farther away, at the intermediate distance. It looks like George profiled, hunted, chased down and captured Treyvon. Then George executed him. As said above: he is toast.

Wonder if Zimmerman refused nose x-rays and EMT because his nose had been broken prior to this incident? His pics in the suit prior to this incident show his nose looking a little off — no different than it does post-murder.

It was reported on ABC that the only reason George went to the doctor at all was to get medical clearance to go back to work. George couldn’t have been very hurt. He just wanted everything to go back to normal.

At the time, the doctor also recommended that George go see a psychologist.

The pictures of George at the police station show minor injuries only. I can’t see any signs of a broken nose, or black eyes, or even a mussed demeanor.

“Path of projectile:
Skin, left anterior 5th intercostal space,
pericardial sac
right ventricle of heart
right lower lobe of lung”

Now that I’ve attempted to decode the language, it appears that TM
was shot, “from above”??? It appears the bullet entered between
the 4th and fifth ribs and went downwards, breaking up as it went.

If someone were straddling you on the ground, you’d have to pull them down and push them backwards before taking the shot, with them apparently in the process of lifting themselves from a flat position. Hardly a reasonable construct.

The other, more likely way is, GZ has TM by the hoodie or arm and TM is bent over, while trying to pull away. Of course the SP has medical experts who will be able to give more precise descriptions of the actions around the wound. But this “ballpark” layman look, should not be too far from the mark.

The thing we can count on is, the wound is too high on TM to have happened while GZ was on the ground. The direction of the bullet isn’t possible for someone shooting from below.

I guess they needed to turn TM over, to get some grass debris on his back, to support the story of a fight on the ground. Or something like that, because it’s really weird that nobody can see who is who… yet… One witness can see that the man on the bottom was Hispanic. All of this in the poor light.

It sounds to me like Taaffe is trying to fulfill some pre-agreed upon obligation, rather than actually trying to help GZ. He is trying to help, he just isn’t aware of the many things he needed to know, to make really helpful remarks. Him and GZ talk “at” each other over time, but not “with” each other. So Taaffe doesn’t know, for example, about the 14 hour course the SPD gave GZ on NW. GZ hasn’t told him about it either, but I’m certain he’d have said things differently if he’d known.

Lonnie, your 3rd paragraph is along the same thing I was thinking earlier when I replied to a post on MSNBC about w#6 changing their testimony… here’s what I wrote:

The witness, isn’t changing the statement that Trayvon was on top…only about who he heard was yelling for help. John (W#6), is finally realizing that it’s not going to look good for him in the end to lie for GZ. Remember, this very same witness was quite ‘adamant’ in both written and recorded statements to the police about who was yelling for help. He gives the impression that he’s right outside his door, so even though it was dark, he had the best ‘hearing’ advantage of any of the other witness. He made it seem like he could clearly hear GZ’s voice calling out. Which if you think about it…if he was that close, unlike the rest hearing from ‘inside’, he couldn’t tell the difference between a grown man’s voice and the screams of a teenager.

If Trayvon was still on top at time of shooting, it’s my guess that he was screaming for dear life because GZ had already pulled the gun, and he had a good enough grip on Trayvon’s hoodie that he was unable to free himself. Could also explain why GZ didn’t have any defensive wounds to his hands. Gun in one, and holding on to Trayvon with the other. If you think back to father and brother Zimmerman’s account, as given by GZ, he was being beaten so severly that he nearly lost consciousness and Trayvon had his hand covering GZ’s nose and mouth. So at what point was it that the witness, in his inital statement, heard GZ yelling?

GZ might not have even needed to have a grip on the hoodie, if he had the gun in his hand. TM may have just frozen at the sight of it.

(I wrote the following as a reply a few comments up, but maybe I should have put it here instead):

The autopsy said TM was 71″ (5 feet, 11 inches). The wound was 17 inches down from the top of TM’s head so, if he’d been standing, it would be 54″ (4 feet 6 inches) from the ground. According to this police report: http://cnninsession.files.wordpress.com/2012/03/martinpolicreport.pdf Zimmerman was 5’9″. Shoulder height on a guy who’s 5’9″ is roughly 4’8″.

Gee, I feel like Inspector Clouseau, I’m getting to all the right conclusions, with all the wrong evidence lol.

That said, these odd witness statements, certainly seem contrived some how. I’m getting an impression that some of these witnesses may have been cowed, into giving testimony a certain way. If so, a few are going to be breaking ranks as the FBI begins grinding their way through it.

I’m going to guess at a few assumptions that could possibly made to explain the confusing situation we have here.

Is it possible that there are actually no black burglars?
Is it possible that ill intended people are causing these reports to be filed, claiming that blacks are the culprits?
Is it possible that a cell of white supremacists/racists, were intending to use this phony crime spree to terrorize the blacks in the community with racially driven “anti crime” work?
If so, I would not be surprised.

Given that so many folk only consider the sensationalized evidence, the prosecution is likely playing on the press’s ability to deliver it and ignore the details. Unless they are specialist, they can’t know how to interpret evidence. All of this superficial interpretations fit his rather generic, superficial self defense plea. GZ is probably filling real comfortable now. I mean to most of us the shot through the heart means a hole was in the heart, but medical examiner can see so much more. The fact that it was straight through the right ventricle tells us the position of the gun wasn’t one where two people are locked together, because that would probably go in sideways under an armpit or through he side. He had to have enough room to point the gun to the chest. Like they say the devil is in the details.

I can’t wait to see the emails that they referred to in the bond hearing. Some cases are solved by what people say after the incident. GZ thought that he’d gotten off, so he probably started firing off to his buddies. I suspect that this may be the racially damning evidence that the FBI is reviewing.

On overall crime statistics, quite likely there were burglaries., although I’d not say it’s a huge number, not exactly a “crime spree”. One a day, one a week, sure. A gated community is dangerous, a good place for a robbery if you can get in, as there is no constantly passing stream of traffic – there’s more privacy, fewer likely witnesses, and all with a false sense of security peole living on a main road don’t have.

Also on statistics, the culprit is more likely to be black person. The crimes that were reported there were reported by various different people, including some black ones.

There’s no evidence to say the non-white residents in the estate were being badly dealt with by anyone else living there. That’s not to say it was a big love-fest. Certainly some would have argued, some would have disliked others’ big dogs, noisy kids or loud music. A normal neighbourhood in other words. And a few didn’t like GZ, that’s normal too. (That number’s grown now, I guess).

And where are you statistics showing that most burglaries in gated communities are committed by black people? Blacks make up 13% of the U.S. population, so the idea that they commit most crimes in general, and most burglaries specifically, is absolutely preposterous. It is even more ridiculous to make the claim that most burglaries of primarily white suburban homes are black.

You know, they had this show on called, “to catch a thief,” and if you saw it, you’d notice the real life thieves were most definitely white. My parents have been burglarized twice in their white suburban neighborhood, both times by twenty something white guys.

Basically, your statement that thieves are more likely to be black is a complete work of fiction, absolutely racist, and built solely on incorrect stereotypes, not any factual evidence whatsoever.

Beyond this, even if your insanely racist statement were true, it still would not justify calling the police on every young black person in the neighborhood. http://censuschannel.net/cc/news/neighborhood-demographics-of-the-trayvon-martin-shooting-1579 As you can see, there is a small but still significant number of black families in the neighborhood. Despite what you may believe, the majority of people, regardless of race, are not drug dealers, burglars, or car thieves. It would be vastly inappropriate and unconstitutional to follow and interrogate every person of any race because a small minority of said race was of a criminal element.

Most crimes against white people are committed by white people. Most crimes against black people are committed by black people. People typically don’t wander into strange neighborhoods where they look out of place in order to commit crimes. Doing so would almost certainly get them caught. Criminals that don’t get caught on their first attempt typically commit crimes in neighborhoods they know well, typically their very own neighborhood. They also know to commit these crimes in areas where their presence does not raise suspicion and garner unwanted attention. A predominantly white neighborhood in a gated community with homes in close proximity (town homes) and wide open lawns without significant shrubbery and/or trees for cover would be an absolutely astonishingly terrible choice for a teenage black kid to attempt to rob. On the other hand, a white/Hispanic teenager that lives in the neighborhood, knows who is out for the night or on vacation, knows which neighbors are nosy, knows the patrol schedule of the security, and is recognized and does not raise suspicion of the local neighborhood watch…. well that sounds far more likely, and far less likely to get caught.

Taaffe claims the neighborhood was infested with black males breaking in their homes, he would most likely be the thief seeing how in 2000 he did 9 months for theft. Oh and HLN checked out the claim of the break ins. There were 8 burglaries to the neighborhood in 395 days as a result there are 4 complaints against blacks males, as for the other 4 these were crimes with no witness and did not identify suspects race. This came from Sanford police. Taaffe claimed there were 8 in 13 months. Wouldn’t it be something if Taaffe is the thief. He has a lot of nerves. But as I said before he is looking to make money off of George. Zimmerman also had never stopped a crime from happening nor is there a witness to Taaffe house ever being burglarized, when the police arrived after Zimmerman called about a suspicious black male, the police stated there was not a suspect when they arrived. Funny how Taaffe is really helping prosecution prove racism . This article can be found on headline news hlntv.com. I googled taaffe and burglarie, that is how I found this. Taaffee said in an interview back in March that George stopped the burglary of his home, the thief tried to go through a window he left open. Does anybody find that strange that he felts so unsafe he left windows open? Also go to mediaite.com and look for Soledad grillszimmermans neighbor.

I think you’re right. I hadn’t gotten around to asking about it yet, but it seems to me that the burglaries increased once Zimmerman and his side-kick Taaffe became neighborhood watchers. Also, George Zimmerman is the initiator of the Neighborhood Watch program for that community. Could have been a great cover for somebody wanting to do bad stuff. Zimmerman was totally in chum up to neighborhood police mode and also had snowed the HOA folks enough to have them make multiple mentions of him as the NW contact person even though the Neighborhood Watch program says the community’s program was never registered officially.

Despite the obviously smaller percentage of the population, the rates of specific crimes of violence and property are notably highest among blacks followed by hispanics. Amusingly interesting and most predictably, asians account for less than whites. It tends to follow a variety of stereotypes such as those associated with education and family strength.

As preposterous as certain things may seem, they only seem preposterous because we want to believe what we are told about a variety of things about equality. We accept easily that in some respects, black people are superior to white people. We make jokes like “white men can’t jump” and like that. That’s not an area we are uncomfortable with. But when it comes to other aspects, we tend to quietly back away from conversations which deal with these frightening issues. And yet we know a lot about genetic predispositions to behavior such as in the case of the Kennedys were risky behaviors and addiction are commonly identified.

If we are to understand ourselves as humans, ALL humans, we must acknowledge things about ourselves. Many of them fly against our most idealistic beliefs and values. It can only be by acknowledging our weaknesses, we will be able to overcome them. Conversely, by ignoring and denying our weaknesses, we are dooming ourselves to persist them.

Not in a snarky tone but what you’ve posted as been debated for decades. Yes, a higher percentage of some crimes are committed by African Americans. Then again, more African Americans live in poverty, have less access to pricey defense teams, and are targeted more frequently by law enforcement.

More specifically, do you have any data regarding the crimes committed recently in the gated community? How about Seminole County?

A commenter stated there were 8 crimes reported in the gated community over the last 13 months. 4 of those were said to be committed by African Americans and the race was unidentified in the other 4. I’m not sure of the above’s accuracy but it’s a starting point.

Even based on that small sampling, a trend is visible. A MINIMUM of 50% of a particular crime is identified as being committed by black people. The other 50% is undetermined… so let’s go with the other half is done by white people. Where the population is “black minority” it doesn’t fit that rates are equal in any sense.

Providing all other things such as “living in poverty” and access to other resources an completely apologist. Other “disadvantaged” groups do not display similar trends. READ the PDF I linked above. The notion that law enforcement “targets” black people has been debunked by statistics and studies all over. (You may think you know what it says already, but the speed of your reply indicates that you didn’t read it or that you read amazingly fast. I’m inclined to believe the former, but I will accept it if you were to tell me you really did read that quickly.) Trends of behavior mostly match culture and cultural values rather than economic status. In fact, attempts to connect economic status tend to show the worst behaviors are exhibited by people with the most resources, not the least.

This article is rather enlightening and goes a long way to show our human tendencies to belief over fact. And the studies which consistently showed that people will discard their own knowledge in favor of social ideas, beliefs and fact. (My favorite is the often repeated experiment where a test subject is placed with actors who are instructed to answer questions incorrectly. The result has been consistently that the subject would answer and even believe along with the actors even when the answers are quite obviously incorrect.)

The study mentioned above even attempts to cover the causation/correlation issues by placing subjects into situations where they might feel relatively inferior and relatively superior in terms of social and financial ranking and showed behavioral shifts as the subjects shift positions.

Discussion and studies linking genetics and behavior may be “old hat” and the tendency may be to criticize the validity of such ideas, but facts seem to support it and have done so for a very long time.

I read some of it. As mentioned, what you’ve posted has been debated for decades.

I’d like to look at both the gated community’s and county’s crime rates. Along with race – and the following is important – we also need to look at the age of offenders since Zimmerman was targeting/profiling a black male in his teens.

My intentions are to see if individuals fitting Trayvon’s description were more or less likely to commit crimes in the gated community as compared to data for the entire county. But, as you originally mentioned a few days back — not that this really matters since profiling is never justified in my opinion.

A little suspicious coming from you Daniel, in light of what you’ve previously been writing. Of course, we all know that the black population is harassed into taking low paying jobs. They are disciplined very much more harshly in school, discriminated in public and generally oppressed as a population. Hardly a wonder then, that police are constantly stopping and searching them, and arresting them on charges they’d let other people walk on, even if they did bother to stop and search them. We have that kind of problem here in NYC, where the stop and search program has resulted in 800,000 blacks being stopped and searched each year, filling the prisons with pot possession cases.

But let’s put that aside. Let’s just look at the community in question! Do you really think this community presents opportunity to unskilled burglars? We had a “ninja burglar” on Staten Island here, an Asian who burgled dozens of houses over several years time and was only recently caught, because of the high levels of skill he employed. He is believed to have stolen quite a fortune, having hit very prosperous estates that were alarmed to boot.

My lay assessment of this community is that it would rank very low down on the scale of “approachable” targets to un or low skilled burglars. Anyone of them who tried it, would have been moved out of sheer desperation to try it. They’d be caught before they “hit” more than one or two residences.

That leaves me to believe that although the reports were going up, the number of actual arrests either stayed the same or went down. These “gated communities” to the more educated people, don’t represent bastions of wealth!
The house values are too relatively low for the residents to have much of anything worthy of attracting your “Pink Panther” style burglar. You’re much more likely to lose a bike from your back porch, than jewels from your bedroom.
Not that there are likely many jewels worth stealing in this community. I doubt sincerely you’d even find one Rolex watch in the entire estate hold.

Yes, and you can add to that, that both GZ and Taaffe are the source of at least two burglary reports. I can’t remember where I read that, but it was from some tally of the SPD crime reports about The Retreat. That’s what started me thinking that, perhaps it was some group at The Retreat who were pushing to get the NW program started.

Looking at the lay of the land at that gated community, you wouldn’t think it’s such an ideal place for burglaries. The sight lines aren’t ideal for such activities.
The layout isn’t exactly great for breaking and entering and carrying things away. Too many open spaces, to easy to see any house from many other windows, both front and back. Thus the ideal approach would probably be to enter by car, park in the driveway and load from as close to the house as possible, then drive away.

Burglars like to know that people aren’t home, but there’s no easy way to figure that out here. The mailboxes are near the clubhouse, so no mail piling up at the door. There’s little opportunity to do any surveillance without being seen.
The point being, burglarizing this community is going to take more skill than the average run-of-the-mill criminal has, of the kind you see wandering around the streets. So that makes me suspect of these crime reports, they just don’t figure quite so reflexively.

daniel you seem to hell bent on bring race into every discussion here. Please give it a rest. Trayvon Martin was not committing any crimes so your stats don’t matter and Zimmerman had no right to follow him based on what he might do….a man in a business suit MIGHT commit a crime, so MIGHT a mother of 3. But so far there is nothing to show martin was doing anything other than walking down the street.

I can’t add a thing to your analysis of how crime works except that I know. I know. I have seen children set up to be self-fulfilling prophesies of who they are supposed to be. It’s a problem because it renders our education system and the goals of civil rights to be a waste. Shouldn’t be that way, but that’s all we’re going to get until somebody has the balls to call a spade a spade and make the judicial system really equally accessible to all. Justice should be separate from capitalism in a truly just society.

A volunteer community watch captain who shot an unarmed Florida teenager to death last month had been the subject of complaints by neighbors in his gated community for aggressive tactics, a homeowner said.

George Zimmerman has not been charged in the Feb. 26 shooting of Trayvon Martin, 17, who was walking home from a convenience store in Sanford, Fla., near Orlando. Zimmerman, who patrolled the Retreat at Twin Lakes development in his own car, had been called aggressive in earlier complaints to the local police and the homeowner’s association, according to a homeowner who spoke on the condition of anonymity.

At an emergency homeowner’s association meeting on March 1, “one man was escorted out because he openly expressed his frustration because he had previously contacted the Sanford Police Department about Zimmerman approaching him and even coming to his home,” the resident wrote in an email to HuffPost. “It was also made known that there had been several complaints about George Zimmerman and his tactics” in his neighborhood watch captain role.

“He came by here and talked about carrying guns and getting my wife more involved with guns,” he said. “He said I should have a weapon and that his wife took classes to learn how to use one.

“I do have a weapon, but I don’t walk around the neighborhood with mine!”

Actually, he does not walk around the neighborhood at all.

“I fit the stereotype he emailed around,” he said. “Listen, you even hear me say it: ‘A black guy did this. A black guy did that.’ So I thought, ‘Let me sit in the house. I don’t want anyone chasing me.’ ”

For walks, he goes downtown. A pregnant Quianna listened to her husband’s rationale, dropped her head, and cried.

“That’s so sad,” she said. “I hope our child doesn’t have to go through that.”

Travis Williams, a black 16-year-old who wears dreadlocks, said last year a man came to his house and accused him of stealing a bicycle. The police even came and checked the serial numbers on the bike in his garage.

An email was sent to residents to be wary of young black men. IMO, Zimmerman and Taaffe ran around the neighborhood in an official capacity scaring the hell out of the residents over property crime. There seems to be a history of bitterness that blacks (great-grandfathers withstanding) lived in the neighborhood. This was due to the down turn in the economy. Racial resentment and profiling was definitely in the mix.

Something puzzling to me I’m noticing and wonder if someone else can shed some light…reading pg.20 of investigator Serino’s report. It says that can of iced tea had fallen out of victims sweatshirt pocket during CPR…also had skittles and lighter in pockets and headphones next to him…now if I recall correctly, he was given tan plastic bag and put items in it before leaving 7-11. Evidence photos also show tan plastic bag in the grass. If Trayvon was intending to put items in his pockets why ask for a bag? How did those very same items end up on his person but the bag laying in grass empty? Also how is it the can of tea managed to stay in his hoodie pocket during the vicious beating he was supposedly giving GZ?

Initially he may not have wanted to put the tea in his pockets and get it warmed up. But if you’ve ever walked in rain carrying a shopping bag, you’d know the bag starts to collect water, and you have to have your had/arm exposed to the rain, too. So maybe when the rain got heavier he put the drink in a pocket and ditched the bag.

Evidence dump (p 16/183) officer Raimondo says he asked for some plastic wrap and vaseline ( to seal the wound) and “An Asian male returned with a plastic grocery bag……”

I’ve been off the case for a few days and came back yesterday night. I’m impressed by the amount of data that has been put out. I still have to digest it all. It’s going to take some time. Anyhow, I have a few comments to make.

1) TM at the 7-11
1a) He has a normal demeanor. There is nothing with him suspicious. He his polite. The 7-11 cashier and TM have a normal interaction.
1b) It is 6:22 so he must have left for home by 6:30 and therefore could have been home by 6:50.
1c) I noticed that he walks at a good pace. A very slow pace could have been seen has being on drug. It’s not the case. It also confirms that he could have been home before 7:00.
1d) I finally could see TM’s hoodie. It really is dark, almost black. I really have a hard time believing that it could be confused with a white t-shirt. GZ wore a light-grey t-shirt under his red jacket. That one could more easily be confused with white.
1e) TM’s hoodie has a large button on it as stated by GZ in his police call. I was wondering if GZ was referring to a buttoned hoodie. But in fact it might be a pullover hoodie. If that’s the case, it couldn’t be open and removed so easily during the fight. In any case, I couldn’t see if there is a white t-shirt under the sweater.

2) DeeDee was on the phone with TM all the way from the 7-11 to the shooting. I made the hypothesis in an earlier post that she hasn’t witness anything before TM ran. I was wrong. He told her everything in life. I knew from TM’s phone log that he indeed had several calls during that day, but I couldn’t tell with whom. Now, we know.
2a) She states that TM spent time sheltering from the rain at the mailboxes. Which may explain why he wasn’t yet home at 7:09. It also kills my hypothesis that TM was followed by GZ in the gated community prior to his call to police. So, the competing hypothesis that someone (F. Taaffe) tipped GZ becomes more likely else I have don’t understand why GZ would take the most complex way from home to the north entrance. That way goes through streets he even doesn’t know the name as he demonstrated by his inability to give proper directions to police.
2b) She states that GZ stared at TM from his truck all the time before that chasing.
2c) After running, TM lost GZ but then was out of breath. This is why he refused to run after GZ cornered him. This is consistent with a long time span between the running and the scuffle. This also confirms that TM lost GZ by taking a longer way between houses before walking south on the back path where GZ cornered him and forced him to walk back north.

3) GZ’s police call is placed at 7:11 in the files bundle. This is a shock to me. I still have the 911 call history that clearly states:
a) Connection: 19:09:34
b) Created: 19:11:12
c) 19:11:59 “Subj Now running Toward back entrance of complex”
d) 19:13:12 “Compl will 1056 [meet] at mailboxes of complex”
e) 19:13:41 “Compl now request LEO 1045 [call] before 1056 [meet]”
Knowing that the call lasts 4min & 7sec. If the call was placed at 7:11:12, dispatcher would know TM was running before 7:13:19, and GZ would change his mind at 7:15:01 and only then ask for being called by LEO . I hate that kind of discrepancies and I keep. So, I stick to the 7:09:11 which is consistent with c, d & e.

4) “John” retracted meaning he is not sure anymore whether the cries for help were from GZ. He admits that this was an assumption he made. All other witnesses believe the cries were from a younger man.

5) Somewhere in the bundle it’s written that the gunshot was at 7:17. That confirms my evaluation as I wrote in previous post (I have at least a few things right).

6) TM was killed by a gunshot to the heart. I’m not a specialist but it seems very unlikely that he could say “You got me” before collapsing. My best guess is that he went through an immediate shock stopping his screaming, passed out, collapsed and died in the following minute.

It looks to me like GZ drew his gun at a very early stage of the fight triggering a fight for it. TM & GZ would have fall to the ground with TM on top. There is a cut to TM’s hand but no bruises that could indicating he was punching GZ repetitively for 1min. There is zero indication GZ was fighting back by punching TM. There is no bruises on GZ’s hands or harms suggesting he was protecting himself from punches. The only explanation I can give is that he had his hands busy grabbing something while being hit.

Trayvon Martin also had on a light grey nike sweatshirt under his grey fruit-of-the-loom dark gray hoodie. It doesn’t seem at all that his hoodie exposed what he was wearing underneath because both his shirt had a bullet hole through them. That info is found on page 122 of the evidence. (FDLE items 15 and 18, Agency exhibits 8 and 12).

Yes, and then if HE was busy grabbing something, so would TM have been… therefore not punching. Well probably a bit of both, try to grab the hand/arm with the gun in it, then try to punch to distract him or keep him down.

GZ never told anyone he was fighting back. Told the family his nose and mouth were covered and he feared for his life, but nothing about trying to struggle, break free, hit back or anything. Which you could do even if being muzzled. In fact the sensible thing would be to grab at the hand over your mouth and try to bend the fingers back.

But nothing. He made no attempt to defend himself at all EXCEPT by immediately choosing the deadly force option. So, he already feared for his life when the first blow was just approaching his face?

What if he drew the gun DOWN NEAR TM’s house? ordered him to go up the path to the truck (and expected police) ??? still without saying who he is? then TM decides to ask him one more time who the hell he is, and tries to grab for the gun? the cheek of the suspicious ***** to still argue when held at gunpoint?

I’m also curious about who Trayvon’s photo pin is in memory of, but haven’t found anything. He seems to want to keep people in his memory between the tattoos and the pin. Now he’s in many more people’s memories and on many more pins than he would ever have expected.

And I’m curious how Will Taaffe died since he was 21 at the time, had the very strange quote on his MySpace page, and Zimmerman mentioned him all these years later.

Patient says he was assaulted and his head was struck on the pavement.

Pt’s GCS = 15 [Glascow Coma Scale, which is a level of consciousness scale and 15 is normal] and he is warm and dry with normal skin color. Pt has abrasions to his forehead + bleeding/tenderness to his nose and a small laceration to the back of his head. All injuries have minor bleeding. Pt also denies LOC [loss of consciousness], neck/back pain, and he has + PMS [pulse motor sensory function] X 4 [in all extremeties] with – paresthesia [no tingling]

[That means his pulse, motor, and sensory functions were all okay and functioning normally]

I also thing that he direction of the projectile is actually going to be key in this particular case. If you do an analysis of entry from front to back, it is more consistent with George being left handed, but it is not consistent with them being locked into a fight. It is more consistent with George being over him somehow or them both standing as I think Marilyn and a few others have mentioned. I don’t think that they were standing, but I do think that George regained the upper hand, but his fear and anger toward this kid made him pull the trigger. Clearly, the prosecution doesn’t have to explain to them how they fit the pieces of evidence together.

Just to be clear, regarding the graphic: The autopsy report noted that the entrance wound was 1 inch to the left of anterior midline (‘anterior midline’ is an imaginary line that would divide the breast bone into 2 equal halves) so the wound was approximately in line with the dots marked ‘P’, ‘E’, and ‘T’.
Also, the coroner noted that the entrance wound was round, and that the lead core of the bullet was recovered in the pericardial sac (which is a sac that surrounds the heart) behind the right ventricle. That means that the path of the bullet was straight front-to-back. (Plus, if the bullet had come in on any kind of oblique angle, the entrance wound have been more tongue shaped, and the stippling would have been concentrated on one side, and feathered out on the other, so the coroner should have described it as ‘elliptical’ or something.)

Also, Trayvon standing when he was shot would still be consistent with why he ended up face-down. Either he fell forward, or the force of impact spun him around.

A funny thing occurred to me, maybe it’s just stuff running together, but:
GZ is harrassing TM, and it seems to me he has good opportunities to take the shot, but he seems to be stalling. Then a witness appears and yells at them, that he’s calling the cops. The witness says he then went upstairs to call 911. But we have only his word for it that he does this.

He supposedly hears the shot as he’s heading upstairs. Is he the same guy who comes back outside and takes the picture of GZ’s head? If so, it has to be before the Police get there, because the police took some time to question GZ before disarming him. After which he put GZ in handcuffs and took him to the car. But, someone here says it looks like GZ is on the phone when the picture is taken. If so then the police had not yet arrived.
Then someone is showing no fear of the armed shooter.

Is it me or does it seem strange that these witnesses, who are GZ’s neighbors, don’t seem to know that he’s the NW Captain? Hadn’t they seen him at the meetings?

These were questions I had when the ‘bloody head’ photo first surfaced and was said to have been taken by a neighbor. Initially, I thought it to be neighbor Jon (recanted wit#6), but reading through evidence dump, there’s another male neighbor who it seems lives few doors down that hears commotion, then comes out with flashlight (remember, several witness recall seeing someone with flashlight, including John).
He also stated in his audio statement that GZ appeared winded as if he’d just gotten his but whooped. Now, what’s not clear to me is if this is possibly ‘Jeremy’, whose girlfriend was on with 911 when shots fired and hear her saying for him to come back up stairs. I believe page 87 and 103 of evidence dump are their statements.

It was Frank Taffee that stated he knows the person that took photo and he’s a friends with GZ. It does look like there’s phone to his ear…and no the cops hadn’t gotten there at that time. Reports state they arrived approx 7:17, but that’s when they entered the complex and weren’t yet behind the row of houses. Photo time stamp is around 7:19, so they arrived shortly afterwards.

Not sure how acquainted these particular neighbors were with him…reading emails about the NW program, only about 25 people showed up to the meeting.

I didn’t see anything in the store clerk’s behavior to indicate he was suspicious about Trayvon Martin. The store clerk seemed at ease to do other stuff his job entails and isn’t following Trayvon or paying much attention accept to make sure he’s back at the check-out counter when Martin is finished gathering what he intends to purchase. Good customer service personell probably does that sort of thing.

A commenter (Lonnie Starr) previously mentioned the courtesy Travyon displayed during the 7/11 video. I’ve only seen clips without audio (but haven’t done much digging around). Was there lip reading done on the footage, did the clerk mention his politeness, and/or is there a version with audio that I haven’t watched yet?

I think that was me, I picked it up on another blog where they said the clerk had been interviewed later. Not much of a stretch there, since the clerk did work at the store where the videos were retrieved. He also could have been on the phone as well, so whoever he was talking to might have heard it. Though I haven’t seen it turn up in official reports yet. But I suspect they will, as will other evidence of TM’s demeanor.

Like clerks in most convenience stores, he will be held responsible for “inventory shrinkage”, so he’ll follow even white customers, who the legends say steal even more than blacks do. Probably because there’s less chance they’ll be subjected to much aggravation if caught, so they’ll be bolder about it.

In total this video proves nothing. TM’s did not steal anything! He paid for his purchases and left. The clerk did just what he’d probably do for anyone in the store while he’s all alone. He’s got to watch because even good customers can help themselves if he doesn’t. Without sound, those jerky movements could just as easily have been comraderie as anything else.

Who brought the first aid kit to the crime scene and why is it marked as evidence and owner unknown? It’s on page 6 of the evidence dump.

First aid was administered by SFD in the back of a SPD police car, right? Why was this first aid kit found in the grass where the murder occurred? What was in this kit? Could the kit’s contents have been used to inflict vertical cuts/wounds to the back of the Zimmerman’s own head?

SPD took no picture of the back of Zimmerman’s head at the crime scene. That information appears in multiple places in the document dump, but page 18 of the evidence dump is the first place I found it. Officer Michael Wagner took the pictures of both Trayvon Martin’s face and George Zimmerman’s face, but didn’t take a picture of Zimmerman’s head injuries. Is this standard police procedure? Why would he not take a picture of the injuries he noted in his report, which incidentally was dated of 3/24/12 — almost a month AFTER the incident?

Could be, but I have never bought a first aid kit that came with vaseline in it. I saw some headline that mentioned twizzers were in the first aid kit. Didn’t read it, but will revisit.

I just don’t understand why a first aid kit was marked as evidence. What comes in those kits? I can’t remember, but I think gauze and antibiotic ointment (maybe) and band-aids and alcohol/antiseptic swabs. Some come with scissors.

It doesn’t say owner unknown. It says “owner not entered” (on the records) as it does for many items (including where the owner is clearly known, eg the money found in TM’s pocket). It rather looks like they only put “owner” when it’s an item that’s going to be tested for something?

The first aid kit, blanket, even used gloves lying around, are entered in evidence only because they were found at the scene. This doesn’t mean they will be in any way vital. They just record everything they find and where it was, and sort out meanings later.

Who was the “white male standing inside the crime scene standing next to the log officer” who was asked to leave the crime scene by Officer Joseph Santiago. (Page 16 of the evidence dump.) Taaffe, Jon, Jeremy, unknown picture-taker?

O-M-G! Did Zimmerman turn over the body and start feeling Trayvon Marin up in order to see if the bullet went through Trayvon Martin’s body? Had the bullet exited the body, Zimmerman would have to find it -OR- formulate his alibi around it. If no exit wound, he would feel he had more leeway to claim anything he felt was reasonably believable.

I believe when Mary Cutcher and her roommate Selma Mora Lamilla first got outside and saw GZ, what they saw was GZ frisking TM,disparately looking for a gun, a knife, any kind of weapon he could say TM threatened him with. In the video with Anderson Cooper You hear Mary say that when they first saw GZ he was on top of TM with one knee on each side straddling him and pressing on his back with his hands, but about 5 or 6 weeks ago I
watched what I believe was the same video that had at about the very end, Cooper said something to Mary and Mary kind of snaped back in a excited way and asked “then why was he running his hands up and down TM’s body like that?” At the same time she put her hands up in the air and was moving them up and down. Then she said it was just really strange because he didn’t seem to be trying to help TM. Right then a bell went off in my head but Cooper didn’t ask Mary to elaborate on it and I don’t know why. I played it over and over about 6 or 7 times so I know what I saw and heard but where did it go? I wonder why it didn’t dawn her or Cooper what GZ (may) have been doing. It just seems logical to me.Again where did that part go? The media drives me crazy.

Just realizing now after reading over Ms. Cutcher statement the following comment, “from the distance I could not tell the color of his skin. I also could not tell if he was trying to find something in his pockets”. When I initially read this I thought she meant GZ was looking for something in his own pocket. But now it makes perfect sense why, after he ‘frisked’ Trayvon’s body(which he certainly had no business doing!), he stepped back, put his hands to his head…then walks back over to look at the body, realizing in that very moment, “OH SH^T, I dun F’d UP NOW!”

After looking at the body for few mins, he walks away toward the road but the cops showed up…I wonder, if for a split second he thought about fleeing, but then remembered he was one that initiated first 911 call. Delusions of grandeur out the window…no news headlines to read, “NW Captain, a Hero! Shoots armed criminial!”

Tina
I think you hit the nail on the head. Mary said she got the impression that GZ just wanted her and her roomate to go away And I think he knew he got cought frisking TM so he was wondering what did they see? what did they hear?

As far the wandering off goes, I heard a interview with a witness about 5 weeks ago and I can’t find it now and I can’t remember who but she said she found it really strange the way GZ was walking up and down the walkway. She said it just seemed odd the way he was doing it. What I believe he was doing was looking for his cellphone that he lost when the fight broke out. I believe he had it in his hand because he was expecting a call from the SPD at any second. And I still believe GZ went to pull his gun to detain TM until the SPD got there. Just a shot in the dark, I could be wrong.

Zimmerman’s reaction is consistent with anyone – especially with ADD – intently focused on whatever they’re doing and not wanting to be bothered by “noise” not pertaining to their “mission.”

Source: Somebody with ADD. Ha!

Moreover, it’s going to be really difficult for Zimmerman to let a jury of his peers determine his innocence or guilt. REALLY DIFFICULT. His testimony – he definitely won’t be taking the 5th – on the stand is going to be downright manic if the prosecution does their job. O’Mara better have Zimmerman hopped up on adderall (or equivalent).

After listening to the full audio of Selma and Mary, I heard them say they also thought Zimmerman was “checking his [Trayvon Martin’s] pulse”. That could be the reason the hands were found in an un-natural position.

The witnesses saying Zimmerman was on top and/or Trayvon screaming for help seem to be of diverse ethnicities — perhaps White, Black, Hispanic and possibly others. The witnesses don’t seem to be a “black lynch mob” that’s being presented by the media.

It is more precisely an article about experts try to extract information from the back ground cries heard in Jennifer Lauer’s (Jeremy Weinberg’s girlfriend) 911 call.

The two experts reach different conclusions but not opposite per say.

The 1st expert (Alan Reich) a retired U of Washington professor could identify two voices: One older, assertive and in control, and the 2nd one younger, frightened and desperate. Pr. Reich could also extract words/sentences from the younger voice such as “I’m begging you” or “stop”. One interesting comment from his analysis is that sounds of a fight (punches, slapping, struggle, …) are absent. He suggest that whatever happened before Jennifer’s 911 call, GZ was in control during the call until the gunshot.

The 2nd expert, James Ryan, a former FBI forensic audio, video and image expert, seems not to have done a detailed analysis of the tape. However, he dismisses the possibility that any reliable information can be extracted from the tape due to its poor quality. James knows nothing about Alan’s work, so he doesn’t criticize it. What he says is more of a general statement.

I believe, that having worked in the FBI, James probably knows better what this audio evidence is worth in a trial. Alan, has been used as an expert in 100s of trials. However, because it was his job of audio expert, Alan may be too optimistic concerning what he can really do.

That said, I found it interesting that Pr. Alan Reich could confirm some statements made by two of the witnesses (including the Teacher).
1) There were two voices one more dominant and older & one younger and scared.
2) There was no fight in the seconds prior to the gunshot. The Teacher and the other witness said there was not much movement on the grass. Pr. Reich says there sound of a fight are absent.

I got to think that sense this information(thanx for the link BTW) Pr. Reich has got a hold of the original 911 call with the missing 8 seconds.(clearer and full, not a copy) and hopefully have more info.

In a reply to my comments above, CommonSense referred to the the page 122 of the FDLE document. This page is about the lab analysis of TM’s shirts. I was surprised to see that the conclusion:
“The sweatshirts each display a hole located in the UPPER left chest. The area around these holes were microscopically examined and chemically processed for presence of gunshot residues. Both holes display residues consistent with CONTACT shot”.

I put in uppercase the words that caught my attention:
1) The hole in the sweaters is at the upper left chest
2) This was a contact shot.

Both statement seem at odd with the report of autopsy (pg 126) that states that the bullet wound is 1/2 inch below nipple and is consistent with an intermediate range.

Therefore, the chest wound is consistent with an intermediate range shot while the shirt holes are consistent with contact shot. I’m not sure what to think about that.

In any case, it is clear that TM had his hoodie on him when the shot was fired. I wonder how flashlight man could see the shot residues on it if TM was belly down. It suggests flashlight man was still around the crime scene when police arrived. This is why the Teacher would see him leave. I’ll have to review again police reports but as far as I remember, T. Smith never mention the presence of a 2nd man on the scene.

My guess is, since the bullet was a hollow point round, it broke apart before it hit a major blood source. When it did hit the left ventricle and the lower lung lobe, it was near a chest cavity so that the bleeding proceeded internally.
Without the heart pumping the blood pressure drops really quick, so not much blood would be released before the pressure reached zero and bleeding stopped.

With a hollow point round gunshot wound, There will be a small amount of blow back blood from the entrance point, and it’s considered high velocity splatter. Hollow points are designed NOT to exit the body on the other side, and usually won’t unless there is some kind of unusual jacketing or a high propellant charge.

Also, is there anything to the 2 gunshots being heard by several (I think) witnesses? I’m sure the echoes are horrendous in that corridor but could an accidental (or warning) shot have been fired?

The female caller and Jeremy (in the background) both say “gunshots” during their 911 call with cries for help in the background. I assume that was by habit though — Hollywood never uses a gunshot scene (unless depicting a suicide of course).

I think the clothing displayed contact shots because Zimmerman was holding on to them. This was what he was doing with one uninjured hand, while the other uninjured hand was holding the gun. This would bring the clothing much closer to the gun than Treyvon’s body which would have been cringing away as far as possible.
If the shots went through higher on the clothing than the body shots, this is consistant with Treyvon bending over, trying to pull his body away by digging in his heels and “leading with his butt.” (sorry for the graphic word, but I want to make myself clear).
If this is what happened, using the clothing contact shot to “prove” that they were still wrestling or fighting would be a travesty. The shot that killed Treyvon was from an intermediate distance, regardless of how close George was pulling the hoodie and t-shirt to himself.

I made same observation few days ago that I posted on blog page related to the maps, about GZ holding Trayvon by the hoodie with one hand and gun in the other. If that’s the case, that could explain the “MMA” style punching and screams for help. It defies all common sense, that the person with gun would be yelling/screaming in anguish for someone to help them.

Chilling very chilling. When thi first started being talked about amongst me and my friends of all races( I think race is important because it shows tha not everyone jumps on a racial bandwagon but will come together for the truth as shown in the rallys of several different ethnicities) we would search and rad and watch, well I ran across a very chilling comment that said I belive young Martin was trapped by another person. Right then it made the hairs on my arm stand up. I pray that this didnt happen because I dont think his parents could handle that. This is why the prosecution wanted to know of Zimmermans phone calls. What if he called Taaffe and Taaffe is defending him to the end so that he will protect him. There is definately something a mist but please dont let it be that. I am a parent and this whole ordeal would kill me but to think he was trapped by 2 men would really drive me over the edge.

I read in a forensic article that a GSW will appear intermediate if the victim is wearing clothes. So it is possible that the gun was in contact with the clothes, but because of filtering, it will appear as an intermediate wound on the flesh. Also, some have suggested that “contact” in medical terms may not mean flush up against but just a very close distance.

Speaking of officer Smith, I saw a vid where Frank Taaffe mentions that George Zimmerman did not know the responding officer first on the scene of Trayvon Martin’s death. The police report clearly shows that officer Smith was there and was the one who recognized Zimmerman as part of the Neighborhood Watch for the community. Smith was also the officer that responded to the February 2, 2012 call by Zimmerman to report a black male outside a white male homeowner’s home who lived at 1460 Retreat View Circle — Taaffe’s home.

Why would Taaffe lie about this minor detail? Maybe it’s not a minor detail?

I find it interesting that the autopsy report doesn’t say whether the scratch on TM’s knuckle is from before death or after. It’s rather strange that a M.E. will just say that a wound is present, but not indicate before or after death if they can, or state they can’t determine it, if they can’t.

If TM obtained the wound on his hand before death, I’d expect it was encrusted with blood, or, if it didn’t go deeply enough to draw blood, that should have been observed and reported too. Since in a homicide case, you’re going to be looking for evidence of a fight/defense/offense. None of which can happen, after death. So there’s that.

GZ supporters have now lost their “bloody fists”, and they’ve lost their assault on GZ. GZ did not slobber and bleed on TM’s hands, when TM supposedly tried to smother him with hands over his mouth and bleeding nose.

TM, handling GZ’s bleeding, wet and slippery head, should again leave trace on his hands, if only dna as dead skin sloughs off onto them. Instead there’s only TM’s blood and no GZ dna on TM’s hands. Meaning that TM never even got to touch GZ, which fits with the true story emerging from behind the curtain of GZ’s lies. GZ was the aggressor all the way.

The entrance wound shows the gun is level when fired. The wound is high on TM’s chest to the left of center. The fifth intercostal space is below and a bit to the left of the entrance wound (as near as I can make out from the autopsy image).

So there appears to be a somewhat left and downward movement of the projectile. To my untrained, layman’s view, it appears that TM was probably bending forward and turned a bit, as if being held by his right arm or sleeve and trying to pull away, when the shot hits him. We’ll have to wait for the professional opinions, but so far it doesn’t look at all good for GZ’s account of the matter.

After the brief verbal encounter, with GZ being the dominant/aggresive voice, TM turns to walk away. GZ grabs hold of TM (DeeDee states she hears sound of someone pushing/shoving him and then grass sounds). TM tries to break free, but they both fall to the ground and TM lands on top of GZ (he hits/scrapes head on something). GZ, determined not to let anymore of these “a$$ holes” get away, continues his grip on TMs hoodie. GZ draws gun, TM freaks out and starts throwing punches, screaming/yelling for help and possibly pleading for his life. Then the gun shot!

I’ve always wondered how you could slam someone’s head on the pavement and that person have no hair. Could you really have a good enough grip on the side of the head that wouldn’t be counterbalanced by the person’s head you are slamming? How does that work? Most people will resist the backward motion but with no leverage to get a good grip, how does it happen?

I have been wondering about the rain. GZ ran around that corner trying to catch TM, I wonder if he might have slipped and cracked the back of his head on the sidewalk.

That would explain the back of the head injuries, and it would have pissed him off, which could easily (given GZ’s history of violent encounters) have made it more likely for Zimmerman to be really rough with TM.

The nose looks no worse than injuries I got being catching an elbow playing basketball, or a normal outcome from a minor bout of fisticuffs.

If you grab someone by the shirt, and they are pulling away, the shirt is CLOSE to you. The bullet, however, strikes their body where their body is, ie FURTHER away.

I bet if they’d dressed the body again they’d have found the 2 sets of holes don’t line up. Not too late to do it on a dummy, in court……….

Re BLOOD LOSS – you get a lot of blood loss only if the heart it still pumping. For example, a cut femoral artery (in the thigh) will SPURT out blood, leading to bleeding out in 2 or 3 minutes. I once saw a body at a crash with the leg torn off above the knee, and barely a tiny puddle under it (killed instantly by head injury… also barely bleeding). Dead = no pumping = only a small seepage of blood.

Perhaps there was a flicker of life. Hard to say. Nobody even looked at Trayvon for the first 3 minutes. In layman’s assessment he was dead. The ambulance guys had to do the CPR thing for X amount of time before making it official. Even if they can see it’s not going to work, because it’s their job to try.

Okay, now I’ve got the image of the autopsy diagram, and a medical image depicting the location of the 5th intercostal space, which, as I understand is just below the left nipple.LINK TO IMAGES

Soot travels only 8 to 10 inches from the muzzle. There’s no soot so they know the shot is from further away. They won’t know the more precise distance until they do comparison tests with the same weapon and ammo.

But the burn “powder stippling” on the skin is even around the entrance wound, if not a straight on shot they say, it would be oval. So they say the shot was straight on.

I guess the bullet deflects off the bone and moves to the 5th intercostal space to the left of the entrance wound and breaks up sending out three shards, two go into the lower lung lobe and the other chews up the left ventricle.

In any event GZ can’t reach TM’s chest, above the nipples, while laying pinned on his back with TM on top of him. His arms will easily reach that high, but his wrist won’t let him turn the gun so that it’s level with TM’s chest. Most especially not if they’re also struggling for control of the weapon.

But, here’s the kicker, there’s no GZ trace on TM, meaning that TM never touched GZ. So GZ’s story of being beaten to a bloody pulp is untrue!
He did not get those wounds from any fight with TM, so he had to get them from somewhere else and/or at some other time, just like I speculated before. I speculated then, that the wounds were made somehow at some other time because I just didn’t believe that TM would have hit GZ at all.

For a kid to attack an adult, he’d have to have a pretty nasty, tough and wild disposition that would easily be spotted in his interactions with other kids. They’d be frightened of him. TM had lots of friends who say that he was fun to be around. He says “please and thank you” in public places, that’s something no kid with nasty disposition would do at all. It’s the mark of a well trained and very respectful/gentle child.

So, now I’m going to stand by my speculation that someone or some group put GZ up to this. It looks more like some kind of initiation than an accidental encounter gone horribly wrong.

It seems to me, this is just my impression, during the time spent out there, GZ probably had a few chances to get in a good shot, instead he hesitated.
A “witness” shows up and goes away, and that’s when GZ seems to make up his mind and takes the shot. So, what did that appearance mean to him? Was he being signaled that time was running out on him? Was it encouragement and a “hurry up”?

I’ll bet that my speculation that the wounds were not examined because a medical professional would probably have put them down to more than just a few minutes earlier. Believe me, if that was even possibly the case, it would never do! GZ would also have to watch his mouth, he couldn’t identify himself, not with blood streaming out of his nose! He had to keep the appearance of escalating hostilities alive at all times, or his reason for shooting falls away.

Actually TM lost about 40% of his blood. The autopsy report states, in page 126, that there are 1.3L + 1L in the right & left pleural cavities respectively. Basically, the blood filled his chest.

The projectile perforated the right ventricle of the heart. From what I’ve read, this causes something similar to a heart attack though the heart may beat erratically for a few seconds.

The projectile perforated the lungs too. This reduces dramatically the ventilation. It is recommended to act very quickly to plug such hole. Without this, CPR would lack efficiency.

Chances of survival from such trauma are extremely small. There are a few instances of survival reported. It is said that to get that chance you better have the human and equipment help within seconds.

Oxygenation of the brain stops immediately. The brain as ~4min of oxygen stocked. The brain shuts down immediately meaning the individual passes out immediately.

From what I’ve found concerning a gunshot to the heart, it is very unlikely for TM to have said and done what GZ claims he did right after the shot. He likely collapsed unconscious immediately, victim of a massive heart attack. The bleeding and the asphixiation made him die within minutes.

There’s still a 1-2ish minute gap that Zimmerman should have spent heading back to his vehicle, correct? Walking down to Trayvon’s porch would take about a minute and running would obviously take less time.

I don’t think it changes much at all. Trayvon was still back behind the home where he was staying now and “near his father’s house” and simply chilling on the phone because he had “lost the guy”. George Zimmerman had time to walk all the way there to confront him and chase him back down the path towards the T (and still pretend he was walking back to his SUV).

I think the prosecution will simply need to prove George Zimmerman had no reason to be on the back path unless he admits he was pursuing Trayvon Martin as a criminal “up to no good” (which Trayvon Martin wasn’t) and preventing him from being another criminal that will “always get away” without him stepping in vigilante-style. He had a flashlight and could have given the police his location or a neighbor’s address from his parked vehicle without EVER having to enter the back pathway.

Case closed as far as reasonable doubt. No reasonable person would find it necessary to enter pathway behind homes (where home addresses are NOT posted) to get an address. George Zimmerman’s story is shown to be a complete fabrication.

Think about it, If GZ did not fight with TM, where did the wounds come from?
Better yet, if he had not shot TM, then look at what the result would be. He’d be standing there armed and covered with blood, with no good explanation as to why. TM meanwhile would be talking just like you’d expect a very frightened child to talk, giving away that he was no match for GZ and never even considered himself to be. Or, perhaps the police would have just sent everyone home, eh?

I think we’re going to get an eyeful when those text messages come out.
The defense has gone extremely quiet again. I don’t see any more blustering statements about how dangerous TM was supposed to be. Very telling!

I’d be more interested in seeing what Zimmerman texted and emailed 1+ week after the murder when he thinks he’s in the clear. Anything sent immediately or shortly after the shooting was sent to cover his ass.

I’ve been visiting lots of boards and I must say that GZ supporters exhibit a marked lack of analytical skills. Yet, even they have gone quite quiet, since this document dump has done nothing at all to help GZ’s cause. In fact, it’s hurt his case so badly, even a plea bargain should be incredibly difficult.
Look for GZ to roll over on anyone he can in order to get a deal that keeps him from execution.

Emails will only be “icing on the cake” or “more nails in the coffin” which ever you prefer.

The wounds on TM’s body are out of line with the holes in TM’s clothes, can only mean that TM’s clothing was being pulled on, at the time the shot was taken. There is no way “on gods green earth” you can be pulling on the clothing of an unarmed person, while holding a firearm on them, and claim self defense.

I’m not sure if legal discovery can access those post-incident phone records or no. But dayum, I’d like to see them to. I would bet my left pinkie finger that if you’d had phone taps on the Zimmerman family, there would be mongo evidence of conspiracy and coverups. I hope they DO get emails/texts, they’ll be very interesting.

Hello all!
I was wondering if anyone had read that Zimmerman’s DNA was found everywhere on the gun except the trigger. I believe that Trayvon’s DNA was not found on the gun. Was someone else there? How could GZ DNA not have been found on the trigger?

Wiped? Wiped with the back of Trayvon Martin’s hoodie while on his back inexplicably? Wiped with Zimmerman’s own clothes before realizing he can’t escape the justice he’s managed to escape so many times in the past?

Holy crap – that is awesome! Do you mind if I post it to the Update section? Note: I’ll use your link, give full credit and I don’t make a dime from the site (in fact my annual $100ish fee is up soon).

What I really need to do: Put together a BccList.com evidence dump. There’s some incredible stuff from commenters (both in the comment sections and emails) that would make for an EXCELLENT blog posting.

There’s a good idea… Why not get a free web page and post the collections of documents there? Obviously we don’t need to post comments to them, so it would just be a case based library that we could link to the pages of.

I’ve been running (so, paying for) the blog as a hobby for a few years now. I’m not complaining but like to mention that I make no money from the blog – and actually pay a little money – when posting other people’s stuff.

I will try to do this soon. Maybe a few pots of coffee, some ritalin, and an all-nighter will get the job done (until the next morning when I try to perform my “real” job). Ha!

So, maybe we can split up the comments on both postings, scrape them for anything we find pertinent, and add those links, comments, observations, etc. to a draft posting. I can put the final touches – including adding media files – and publish.

I’m in! Oh for others, it’s not your tech savvy that needed, just more eyes, hands and heads. I’m pretty disorganized myself, but I can spot errors and/or passages that seem like such and/or need more explanation. You can help, if only to point out how things can be moved around, re-ordered, to make a picture that makes more/better sense.

Oh and NLME, you should put the contributions button up anyway. I don’t go after donations, but I’ve got one on my blog (it’s hidden way down so no one ever seems to find it LOL) But, who knows what it might enable you to do?
You can get a paypal donations button that is easy to place, (it’s just copy and paste code) you don’t need any special knowledge and it works great, it even issues receipts if you want it to. You get a control page where you simply select the options of the behavior you want it to follow and that’s it.

@tchoupi caillou: re: George Zimmerman’s Route Deduced from Clubhouse’s Videos
It would be nice if you could put some kind of time points on this map. even mock or approximate times would be a big help at this point.
I’ve got your stuff in my collection at : http://zimmerman-vs-martin.blogspot.com/
which I use for reference (which is why it’s so disorganized) but it’s open to anyone who wants to use it as well. I’ve got comments moderated, to ensure that I see them all, otherwise I could miss suggestions etc., directed to me.
Also Blogger has added a new permissions interface I didn’t have before. So, maybe now if someone signs on, I can give them permission to move things around and post etc., which I tried to do before but couldn’t.
My other computer locked up, so I don’t have access to a lot of the old stuff yet.
I’m still working from scratch. Bcclist seems to have gone quite, but there’s some 160 posts a day on Frederick Leatherman’s law blog. You’re getting great mentions over there. Warm regards.

i would love to help but i have absolutely no idea how to do any of the things you just said haha i am not tech savvy at all. I’m not sure how much all of this costs (monetarily, i know the cost in time must be great) but have you thought of setting up a place for small donations to help keep this site or the new one you are proposing up and running while this case continues as i’d be more than happy to help contribute. I’m sure others would too as this site is my favourite by far to discuss the facts of this case and i really appreciate all the work you do here. I’ve seen other sites request donations although im not sure how it all works or if it’s worth the trouble, depending on the costs. Anyway, the new idea sounds great and i really look forward to it’s progress..

Thanks for the kind words. And, no worries — sifting through everything may end up not being that “daunting” of a process. My eyes hurt thinking about it though. Hahaha!

I’m (lower) middle class enough that I’d feel “dirty” soliciting donations for a hobby unless I, in turn, donated that money. The WordPress app is a major timesaver and I’m a consultant with an extremely flexible schedule. So, other than a sleepless day here and there when a project is due but something “major” breaks in the case, I haven’t had to make many accommodations.

I can supply material such as the 911 call records, police reports.
I also have tons of links more or less organized by topics.
I have screen grabs and pictures.
Finally, I can supply the result of my analysis work such as time lines and location of witnesses.

I’m still not clear on how wan can organize this but I think it must be a list of references with links to sources, a list of pictures, a map and a time line. We should probably list the witnesses and what they states and what we know about them. I was about to forget a list of evidences from official reports.

From there, all discussions in the blog can be referring to those items.

Cool – if you’d be willing to put together a comprehensive email of all the excellent info you have, that would be awesome!

I definitely – no sarcasm – made this too difficult by mentioning site contributors. Ha!

Maybe Lonnie, jo, and I can scrape the comment sections for additional stuff that we all reference on a regular basis.

We can do a single “evidence” blog posting and list out said evidence. For example…

911 caller 4: Audio and call transcribed.

911 caller 6: Address.

Frank Taaffe: Walk through.

I will set-up a hyper link directing to an “external” website (like YouTube), “internal” .pdf/image file (like a map), etc. for the above example words of audio, call transcribed, address, and walk through.

Thoughts?

So…

There are currently 379 comments on the original blog posting — the comment number can be seen to the left of the comment (as you likely know). Note: The replies to these comments are not part of this 379 number.

Lonnie – maybe you take take the first 175 comments from the original posting, scrape them, and email me the stuff referenced frequently?

I can set up another google blog, I haven’t checked to see how to set permissions, I will do so right away. Then we can work there and link back here. The good thing about the google blogger is, we can delete comments if we like. So we can take requests/suggestions/critiques and after we’ve made the adjustment, we can then simply delete the comments. Keeping the blog pristine. We can also play with the posting dates, as a way of keeping the docs in the order we choose. We can change dates to move the post back or forward in the chain.

In fact we can set up as many blogs as we like over there, so we can even use one as workspace and not publish it. Then just copy and paste it all into the public blog. Whaddayathink?

I’m down for whatever but the easiest/least confusing route may be for each of us to create an email and then post the accumulated evidence dump from those emails (I can/will do this) into a brand new BccList posting.

Adds: I’d definitely turn off comments for the evidence page in the benefit of brevity and page load times…great idea!

If the above sounds good…

Tchoupi – Feel free to email your info once it’s compiled.

Lonnie – Would you be able to review comments #1 – #175 of the original posting for useful, interesting, frequently mentioned stuff, etc?

jo – Would you be able to review comments #176 – #349 for the same?

I’ll review the new posting’s comments tonight and/or tomorrow night.

P.S. I think my disclaimer about not making a dime from the site (before asking to post content somebody else created) may have been confusing. Meaning, there’s no per posting, file, or storage fees. Just some annual fees that I gladly pay. 🙂

NLME i only just now saw this posting, sorry sometimes i just scroll down close to the bottom to check new posts and don’t go through all of them to see if anything has been added so i completely missed this, my apologies, but i’m more than happy to help. So i go through the comments mentioned and look for important links, important and frequently noted comments/ideas and forward them to you via email? Have i got that right? I will email you my email address so you can send me an example of what you are looking for and to make corresponding a bit easier because i sometimes miss new posts here. Thanks.

I was indeed looking at the FDLE report focusing on the conclusions concerning DNA search (pp 104-114).

Here is my summary:
1) GUN GRIP
GZ’s DNA is confirmed as major
TM’s DNA is excluded
The DNA of at least 1 more individual was found as minor
2) GUN TRIGGER
No reachable conclusion
3) GUN SLIDE
DNA of a male person found
No conclusion regarding the owner of the DNA
4) GUN HOLSTER
GZ’s DNA is confirmed as major
DNA of at least two other individuals found as minor
TM’s contribution to minor can’t be determined.
5) TM’s fingernails
No DNA foreign to TM was found on right hand
No DNA obtained on left hand
6) TM’s shirt (ME-8)
GZ’s DNA found (stain A)
TM’s DNA found (stain B & E)
Undetermined Mixed DNA (stain D) possibly GZ & TM
No DNA foreign to TM on right cuff/lower sleeve
Mixture DNA from 2 individuals on left cuff/lower sleeve
Can’t determine if GZ’s is one of the 2.
7) TM’s hoodie (ME-12)
TM’s DNA found (stain A)
No DNA on stain C
No DNA foreign to TM on right & left cuff/lower sleeve
8) GZ’s shirt (DMS-16)
Only GZ’s DNA was found on 14 stains
9) GZ’s jacket (DMS-19)
GZ’s DNA found in 9 stains
Mixed DNA profile of 2 individuals in stains E & BB
GZ is major
No determination concerning TM
Mixed DNA profile from 2 individuals in stain I
GZ is major
TM is excluded
Mixed DNA profile from 2 individuals in stain N
GZ is major
TM is minor
Mixed DNA profile from 2 individuals in stain U
GZ is undetermined
TM is possible
Male individual and/or non-Human DNA in stain Z

My conclusions
1) DNA isn’t the magical evidence.
2) There is no evidence TM ever touched the gun.
3) There is evidence GZ had the gun in hand.
4) There is no trace of GZ’s DNA found in TM’s fingernail
5) GZ’s DNA found on TM’s shirt but not on cuffs or lower sleeves.
6) No trace of GZ’s DNA on TM’s hoodie.
7) TM’s DNA found on GZ’s jacket

I have no information concerning the location of the various stains.

When reading, keep in mind that the absence of evidence isn’t the evidence of the absence. So, only keep positive results like GZ’s DNA found on TM’s shirt which was under the hoodie.

I don’t know a whole lot about forensics, DNA and all that, I leave that to people like you and others on this blog that seem to have a good grasp on how it works. I just try to understand it so if I’m wrong tell me. I’m more of a actions kind of guy. It’s fun to try to put the puzzle together : )

The DNA on TM’s inner shirt under his hoodie. It seems to me that depending on where they found the DNA , low or high on the shirt may strengthen the theory that GZ frisked TM after the shot. With that said It seems to me if they found the DNA high and on the front that would strenghen the theory many on this blog have that TM was on his back after the shot and before anybody got out there to see, GZ flipped TM over face down. In other words Frisked the front then flipped and then frisked the back and then got cought and then quickly stood up.

a witness (I think John) said gz said the gun is on the ground, the gun is on the ground … the police, however, retrieved the holstered gun from gz’s person according to the document dump. so maybe there was some handling of the gun b4 the police arrived, hence a wiped trigger. gz’s story wasn’t completely formulated.

Two people chasing tray is plausible. who would remain inside the crime scene and have to be asked to leave whilst LEO log guy is logging? maybe shot (s) were fired. Since all bullets for the tech 9 were accounted for … it possible the Flashlight could have been standing there watching throughout and it could have been taaffe. too much happened in that minute or so and gz peeps were there to snap a picture.

it’s possible taaffe called gz and said it’s on man. maybe both taaffe and john are on the NW tree. the witness that saw a Hispanic man on the bottom and the MMA stuff knew exactly that it was gz. taaffe knew how far down that path gz went (see walkthrough). and more that likely, this is the person that remained inside the crime scene tape and is probably the picture taker. yes he is a friend of gz and could of chased tm back toward gz near the T.

The following is a rather baseless comment but I think you can completely wipe off DNA. However, I can’t imagine Zimmerman purposely wiping the trigger off since he admitted to shooting the unarmed teen (but you never know).

Unless, Zimmerman wiped the entire gun while he was weighing his options, realized he had none but to say he shot Trayvon, and never touched the trigger again because there was no need to. That sort of makes sense.

Yes and No. Yes. He probably thought he could wipe on Trayvon Martin’s DNA while he rubbed the gun on Trayvon Martin’s clothing. No, he didn’t probably give a care to whether wiping his own DNA off since he’s got documented proof to explain his own DNA as Zimmerman has a concealed carry permit. The goal would be to ADD Trayvon Martin’s DNA without worries regarding Zimmerman’s own DNA being absent or present.

HI guys! I’m really enjoying reading this blog because you all are actually taking the time to examine the discovery evidence instead of childish name calling. Thought you guys might want some interesting info on Frank Taaffe. It seems that the good ole’ boy Taaffe was arrested for Criminal Trespass and PETTY THEFT. I got the info from a comment on Huffington Post.

Just click on Criminal and Traffic Case Records, then where it says Party Information enter Taaffe – Francis – Bruce, then click search. You’ll see all of his charges. Sorry if you already have this info. Frank is a criminal felon!! lol

I haven’t really read any other blog postings regarding the shooting but what you’ve mentioned has been said before — thank you for the comment! I’m pleased to continue hearing there’s at least one “civil” blog where visitors can review information on the shooting. As the comments are completely unedited, this was unintentional (but definitely desired).

Alas, it’s seemed to me that there was more than just GZ involved for a very long time.

Think about a man coming outside, when others are running away from the sounds that are scaring them. This guy tells a story that coincides with GZ’s story, then later recants it, when it seems like his further hanging onto the original story, will make him seem like an associate.

He sees GZ on the bottom and can see that GZ is hispanic. Another witness sees him standing outside talking to the man on the ground, but doesn’t see one of the people. She only sees two people not the three that have to be there.

John goes back in the house and heads upstairs when he hears the shot.
Trayvon’s clothing and body shows that he had the inferior position when he was shot. Meanwhile John, is pretending that GZ is a total stranger?!? He’s calling him “the white Hispanic male”??? Then GZ is asking him to call his wife? Why didn’t he simply say: “I saw George Zimmerman, Captain of the neighborhood watch on the bottom”? Why is he addressing his friend as “The white Hispanic male”? Things that make you go hmmm.

In the report of investigation (pg 49), there is an interesting witness statement. This is the witness that I positioned at 2821 RVC, the one that cared for an elderly person 4 doors north of hers.
Her 911 call doesn’t bring much information. However, her statement is really interesting as it cross checks John’s.
She was about to walk her dog going through her back door when she noticed two persons: One is her neighbor Johnathan Good, and the other one is a person laying on the ground, whom she identifies as “the kid”.

The added information here is that she’s heard John saying “Okay, I’m going to call 911” about 60sec before the gunshot which was at 7:16:56. The 60sec comes from a re-enactment.

We know she was too far south to see much and she admits it. Actually, she couldn’t even see the third person that was on top. So, when she says she saw the kid on the ground, it must be her interpretation. However, that interpretation must have been influenced by what she heard. She could clearly hear John’s words which means that once the back doors were open we could hear very well sounds, voices and words 3 houses south from the scuffle. In other words, she has heard who she thought was on the ground saying “Oh Oh, help me, help me.” and she identified it has being the voice of a kid. I believe, this is one more nail to the coffin of GZ’s claim that he was the one crying for help.

The other interesting point her statement makes is that Johnathan Good isn’t lying. He really was at his porch demanding that the fight stops.

The final interesting information is about timing. From the re-enactment, we now know that John was crying at TM & GZ before Jennifer’s (Jeremy’s girlfriend) 911 call (the one that caught the cryings for help). It also extends the scuffle to more than a minute.

I raised a question about this witness statement a few post back, and wondered about her timing of the events. Could it also mean that maybe, as others have stated that there was no sounds of a struggle when shots fired? Was TM somehow incapacitated enough to not be able to get up before being shot?. Even the statement given by the 13yr old coincides with what you point out and the female witness…that he heard someone on the ground moaning, but his dog ran in opposite direction before he could see what was happening. I’m not sure how that would factor in with what others here have posted about position both were in at time of shooting.

I certainly hope Angela Corey and her team are giving as much thought into all the possibilities as I’m reading here!

I was reading over your post again and where you say the witness states, “She was about to walk her dog going through her back door when she noticed two persons: One is her neighbor Johnathan Good, and the other one is a person laying on the ground, whom she identifies as “the kid”.

A thought popped in my mind and I went back to look at the statement as written by Inv. Serino. and this is what it states, “She noticed her neighbor talking to someone, and she noticed someone ‘else’, who she ID as the ‘kid’, laying on the ground making a groaning noise”. Now if I’m interpreting this correctly, it seems to me that there would be three persons outside: neighbor, GZ(this is who she sees neighbor talking to), and then TM laying on ground?! She then states that she hears the neighbor say, “Ok, I’m going to call 911”. She recalls all this having transpired prior to her heading upstairs for closer view out bathroom window before hearing gun shot. After re-enactment with Inv. Serino, the elapsed time was 60 secs.

Now, the thought that pooped in my head, is according to John, this would be about the same time he states he’s witnessing TM on top of GZ giving him “MMAs” to the face, yelling for help(before his retraction), and he tells the two men, “Stop, I’m calling 911!” at which time he states he locked patio door, runs upstairs and he also hears gun shot. Only similarities in the two stories I’m seeing, is the statement “I’m calling 911”, and they both hear gun shot when heading upstairs.

When I look at statement given by female witness, and given what most of us believe to be John’s involvement, it sounds as if John is agreeing to make call to 911 with his story that TM is on top of GZ pounding away and guy on bottom is yelling out to him to “help”. He doesn’t say that he was outside and witnessed this directly, just that he could ‘hear’…only in written statement does he mention he opened door and saw GZ getting hit.

What still is unclear to me is if there was indeed this period of ‘separation’ what happened that TM was unable to get up before being shot?

Could be that GZ is holding a gun on him? That would certainly prevent him from getting up, without providing the examiner with any injuries to examine.
John, it seems, is getting close to being an accessory after the fact.
Perhaps he already is. That would explain him changing his story.
Perhaps his phone, text or emails sunk him already and the SP is now working on roundup activities.

The FBI Lab boys have way more IT resources than the state boys, so I expect Taaffe to go down next. Stay tuned.

“Was TM somehow incapacitated…”? That is beyond speculation. The evidence indicates clearly that Martin was dominating the situation. This is to say that regardless of opinions about who started what, Martin was seen by multiple witnesses on top of Zimmerman beating the crap out of him. There is no evidence that prior to being shot, was Martin harmed in any way at all. Read it again. NO EVIDENCE that Martin was being harmed in any way at all… prior to his being shot.

I know most people here want to believe in the now “trademarked name and slogan” with the picture of a 13 year old boy… that he was kind, gentle and innocent, that he could not possibly have taken Zimmerman to the ground and brutally beating the man — the witnesses and the evidence are surely wrong. But get a grip. Don’t buy into the trademarked hype which is being pushed by clearly opportunistic people trying to turn this into something it simply is not.

The very idea that Martin was incapacitated prior to being shot speaks volumes of the fantasy living in your head.

It seems that you’ve already made up your mind about the evidence presented. Actually, there aren’t ‘multiple’ witness as you say, that saw Trayvon on top beating the crap out of GZ. Just one, John. Everyone else heard either, the verbal encounter, scuffle, or just the shot, and said it was too dark out to see who was who. NONE of those witness said they saw GZ getting a butt whooping, except for John! Several of them even state, they saw ONE person laying on the ground moaning/whining for help right before the shot is heard.
So, if it is GZ, as you and others suggest, where’s Trayvon? If he was ‘clearly’ the agressor and dominating the situation as you state the evidence shows…and he incapacitated GZ. He what, waited around for GZ to recover from near unconsciousness and allowed GZ to shoot him?!

For me, it’s not about being on any side/team. Just want the TRUTH to be known. So, perhaps you may want to get a ‘grip’ on reality and realize that GZ is not being TRUTHFUL!

TM was probably not an angel.
GZ was surely not one either. He had has problems of violence as soon as he left parental home. He is even not 30 that he has been fired from a job for violent handling of a female customer. He’s been charged for violence to a police officer. He violently dealt with his former girlfriend and finally he kills a boy.
Actually, it would be interesting to get statistics on that topic, but before, I want to answer to some of your points.
1) SYG law applies to TM too. He may have just used his right without gun in his pocket. So, to know who was really the aggressor you have to look to what happened prior to the scuffle. The scuffle in itself is meaningless. We all know there was one, we just don’t know who started it.
2) There is at least one witness who seriously contradicts GZ’s statement. That witness is DeeDee. This is enough to justify a trial.
3) I’m not claiming GZ’s intention was to beat TM up (even less to kill him). I believe that was a terrible accident caused by a man playing police. So, no GZ didn’t ran after TM to beat him up. He ran after him to get him arrested.
4) TM did not beat the crap out of GZ! You can’t discard the evidence that GZ required no stiches and could be released immediately to SPD (that’s in the report). It is true he was blooded though. But, if his head was banged repetitively on the concrete for a minute he would have needed stiches at minimum. Bleeding nose? Sure, any shock to the nose would make it and it’s always impressive. So, sure TM threw some punches, but he was definitely not efficient at that. And after all, if he was standing his ground, it was then his right to punch GZ.
5) No wound/bruise to TM? This is actually an issue to GZ. You’ll find no one in the world getting punch for a minute without defending himself one way or another. Typically, the aggressor would get his share of wounds. We also made the comment that a defensive GZ would protect his face with his harms/hands. That too should leave marks. None were found on the hands/harms.
6) Finally, if you are the victim. You don’t have to lie. You really really don’t. You don’t have to take an oath and say before the exact person that will judge your case that you thought he was a bit younger than you when you’re on police records saying “late teen” or “I don’t know where this kid is”. You don’t have to state that your aggressor had time to say western-type things before loosing consciousness from a gunshot to the heart because humans just can’t. Don’t claim you are merely looking for an address and walking back to your car after you rushed out of your car to chase someone without forgetting your gun and flashlights.

Side note concerning people trying to turn this into something it clearly isn’t. I can’t deny that the Martin’s Lawyer used pictures of a younger Trayvon to pressure the judicial system to do its job. However, pro-GZ media did not hesitate using pictures of thug-type black teenagers to make him look like he was one. BTW, the autopsy report clearly states that Trayvon’s teeth were natural and in good health.

tchoupi.caillou Says
“Tina, further down the report, it is written that the witness states that she saw nobody beside her neighbor and the person on the ground.”

Thanks for pointing that out. I wonder, though, if someone would pick up on that and question the discrepency. In any event, it still doesn’t explain why she and the young boy walking dog both state they saw just one person laying on the ground.

Tina, it was really dark that night on that back path. The former teacher couldn’t see any face from her house right across the path. John, who had it right at his porch is the only one identifying a black man on to of someone with a red jacket. One house down, the lady saw a guy with a white t-shirt. At this point, no other witness ever saw a white t-shirt. In front of her, Selena saw only shadows. One house down, Selma & Mary couldn’t see if the guy with a flash light was police or not. they just assumed he was and it happened he wasn’t. One more house down, the lady saw indeed only the shadows of two individuals one on the grass and one at his porch. So, I guess Austin McLendon, the 13yo boy, wouldn’t see much. If TM was with his dark hoodie on, they may have simply not see him.

You can check the pictures of that night, it really was dark down there. In one of the pictures, you can see police officers grouped at the T because they were right in the beam of the police car’s headlights. A few feets to the right, if you pay attention, there is an officer tying the yellow tape to a tree to secure the crime scene. You really have to watch closely to catch that officer, because what you really see is the shadow of the officer.

The autopsy mentioned Trayvon’s genitals. There were two sentences. One said something like there were no abnormalities seen. The other line didn’t say there were no abnormalities but I can’t remember what term/phrase was used. I’d search but you guessed it, I’m on a mobile device.

P.S. Completely unrelated but I find it super awkward that with all the police/EMT presence literally feet from their home, Trayvon Martin’s family didn’t file a missing police report until the next day. No, I’m obviously not suggesting anything…at all…I just find it weird.

I don’t find this odd. They may have entered from the back entrance and went into the front of the house completely missing all the police activity. Second, it would be unnatural for a parent to assume that their child in any way had something to do with what is going on. Literally, I think it would be the last thing they would think.

Yeah – this line was written on 3/27. So, the day of my original posting. So, well before I sort of understood what the heck happened that night.

I originally thought Tracy and Brandy were home while there was a ton of police presence, Trayvon didn’t show up later that night, and they didn’t think anything out of the ordinary had occurred. This obviously wasn’t the case.

I would like to know how long the police were actually even on the scene collecting evidence. The police already admit to not making an exhaustive search for information about the teen, which is odd, evidently they wanted to assume he couldnt possibly live in the neighborhod. He was only 70 feet away from his back yard and had they canvased longer the father would have actually came home and discovered this gruesome scene. It is just so weird that Sanford police dept was so easy to believe Zimmerman. I really find it hard to trust the Sanford police and their evidence.

At one point, the man says he started to wonder if he somehow misread Zimmerman’s verbal attacks because that’s how convincing and innocent sounding George was when talking to their supervisors about the harassment.

But, this is different. The Sanford Police Department – so, individuals that should be highly skilled/trained with situations like this – should be embarrassed they were (originally) duped by a convincing man whose story didn’t even add up on the night of the shooting.

I just listened to the interview with the “middle eastern co-worker.” I’ve got the following observations:

1. The interviewee had more problems “fitting in” than just Zimmerman. In fact, before his first interactions with Zimmerman he established that he was not completely comfortable.
2. The interviewee was reluctant to characterize Zimmerman as racist, but more like “junior highschool” stuff where singling people people out was occurring.
3. How did this ex-coworker get approached? I suspect it is more along the lines of this man coming forward after recognizing him in the news to assist in his lynching. I question his motivations, but I don’t doubt the truth of what he has said because the interviewer was asking some rather leading questions and he seemed to maintain his course.
4. It was a very interesting interview and helped to paint a believable character impression of Zimmerman. The more I learn about him, the less I like him, but the more I understand him. I know the personality well. Always looking for a chance to assert himself, establish himself as a leader or a superior, invariably at the expense of others. What’s more is the character traits collected from other sources and from his dealings seem to fit together pretty nicely.

He’s not a racist. He’s not uncomfortable with identifying people by race and he seems to feel he has license to do so because he’s “not white.” I see that in a lot of people… people often believing that only white people can be racist. He’s not really even a full on “bully” either. A bully goes out of his way to make people miserable and it is often planned out. Zimmerman doesn’t strike me that way. He performs best with an audience and in situations. It’s not fitting… he’s more of a performer trying to make himself look good at the expense of others, not someone who is specifically out to get anyone.

I am not denying he clearly has personality issues. He certainly does. I met many like him in schools and in workplaces and especially during my short time with the TSA. (The cop-wannabe types are the worst.)

What works for me at the moment, (and my impressions of things have evolved as information comes it as I hope everyone’s is) is that this guy was kind of self-important and wanted to prove how important he was by being an aggressive neighborhood watchman; asserting himself against anyone he might be able to characterize as suspicious. (Calling an unknown black person wearing clothes consistent with gangs or people trying to conceal their identity does NOT make a person racist. It just makes him observant to the fact that Martin was practically wearing a mask. We saw the 7-11 video. Could you see his face AT ALL?!) He went to confront Martin and he did. That’s not “murderous intent” it’s just bad personality.

The problem is that Martin most assuredly went off on him and wasn’t about to put up with Zimmerman’s bullsh!t. Frankly, I don’t completely blame Martin for being upset with Zimmerman’s approach or manner. I would be too. But a line was crossed… okay two lines were crossed.

The first line that was crossed was Zimmerman. He was acting like a wannabe-cop. And I can’t say what Zimmerman was expecting, but I am pretty sure he wasn’t expecting what he got from Martin.

The second line that was crossed was Martin. A verbal confrontation became physical and as the interviewee said, Zimmerman was not physically confrontational — he didn’t put his hands on anyone. Zimmerman is a big talker… a good talker too I’m certain. But it doesn’t fit that he would initiate a physical encounter. Martin, with a history of fighting and physically aggressive behavior and defiance of authority, is the most likely candidate for escallating the encounter to a physical conflict. And once again, it’s pretty evident that Zimmerman was not prepared for it.

Zimmerman was overwhelmed by Martin’s skill at fighting. Lighter, faster and stronger, Zimmerman didn’t stand a chance against Martin, the guy Zimmerman p!ssed off in the wrong way at the wrong time in the wrong place.

And that’s the thing. As I understand it, just making someone angry can’t be more than a misdemeanor and often isn’t even that. And it’s not much more than a public disturbance to hold a verbal confrontation in public. And that’s all this encounter ever should have been. Martin crossed that line. He beat the crap out of Zimmerman. Zimmerman, under this condition which he was clearly unprepared and untrained for, pulled his gun when the opportunity came about. Martin wasn’t shot in the back. Martin was shot while facing Zimmerman or so the evidence suggests.

[Pure Speculation] What granted Zimmerman the opportunity to pull his gun? Who knows? Maybe Martin “said what he had to say” and was turning to walk away ‘victorious’ when Zimmerman said “hold it right there!” causing Martin to turn around to see the gun pointed at him.[/Pure Speculation]

We will never know what really happened. We’ve got lots of bits and pieces, lots of questions and no good answers. The evidence shows Martin as the aggressor in a very one-sided fight. How and why the trigger was pulled, I am less certain about. Did Martin charge Zimmerman a second time? Did Zimmerman simply get Martin to face him before shooting so that he didn’t shoot him in the back? We can’t know. But it’s most important that we REALIZE what we can’t know and what we don’t know. Filling in those blanks with what we want to believe is simply bad and wrong.

Martin crossed a serious line by making the encounter physical. In a nation where concealed handguns are a reality, people are best advised to be cautious and to control one’s anger and reactions. By becoming the aggressor, he created a condition which potentially justifies a deadly defensive reaction. Martin was just too young to recognize the risk he took when crossing the line from verbal to physical. And this is not speculation, the evidence supports this view rather well.

I see this incident is nearly the same light as aggressive drivers on the road. Sometimes road rage becomes deadly. And in those cases, punishment is warranted. I actually can’t believe I am arriving at this conclusion today because even a few hours ago, I believed that as stupid as Zimmerman was, he doesn’t deserve to be punished for this incident. But now I am having second thoughts on that.

I am still not convinced that this was AT ALL racially motivated and does not fit as a hate crime. But the two created the situation but the more serious offender in that escallation and the one who made the most final and deadly choice was Martin. After Martin beat up Zimmerman, Zimmerman became les capable of thoughtful and rational behavior and he used the only tool he had to defend himself as he was clearly and demonstrably outmatched by Martin physically.

I can definitely agree with some of your thoughtful comment. There are obviously some things I disagree with.

For example, how do we know Martin wasn’t attacked, tackled, pushed down, etc. during a chase? This is what DeeDee suggests. It sounds like there is at least one other witness suggesting a chase scene leading up to a wrestling match (Note: definitely not an ass kicking).

Do you believe Zimmerman when he says he was attacked from behind while returning to his vehicle (even though his vehicle was due west of where the 911 call ended and not south of the T at all)?

I’m suggesting literally everything that has come out of Zimmerman’s mouth has been a lie to cover his ass. I’ll continue assuming this until a) Something he says is proven truthful and/or b) The prosecution or the Martin family lawyers present even one piece of evidence that is remotely questionable.

“He’s not really even a full on “bully” either. A bully goes out of his way to make people miserable and it is often planned out.”

Per what the middle eastern coworker mentions, Zimmerman was a bully by definition. Interestingly enough, he was said to only bully when he felt in a position of power. Meaning, the witness says (not verbatim) that Zimmerman would never go after somebody he felt was superior, bigger, stronger, etc.

He’s picking on a guy who is already beset by troubles fitting in.
That’s a guy who actually needs a connection and a friend.
GZ is making it harder for him to come by friends, because
of GZ ridicule of him. What has the guy done to deserve this
kind of treatment from GZ?

It’s kinda like GZ has found a guy hanging around the basketball
courts with a bum leg, and he’s constantly reminding him that
he can’t play basketball. What’s the point?

The police knew GZ was the NW Captain, my guess is, if I was a superior officer, I’d want to know, from the Community Relations Officer, who was in charge of NW, “what the hell happened here?” “What are you telling these NW’ers?” “I thought you were supposed to have admonished them very stringently not to patrol while armed and not to follow?”

At: Frederick Leatherman Law Blog, the lawyer seems to be mistakenly under the belief that these rules are pretty much optional for NW’ers. Such that a jury may or may not, be convinced that enforcement of these rules, is unnecessary and/or arbitrary. Of course, his point is well taken, that an untutored jury, might very well be convinced that these rules are just guidelines, that can be dispensed with at the Watcher’s choice.

It will fall to the prosecutor to teach the jury, that these are the rules, devised by LEO professionals, to separate the N-Watch program from vigilantism that is illegal, that nobody wants and the people should fear. Because, “following” cuts both ways, it is an activity that can be read as threatening, by an innocent person being followed. The law, then gives that innocent person, the right to respond reasonably, to that threat.

Suppose, for example, the person being followed is a young child of 8 to 10 years. Now, a neighbor who knows this child, but does not know the follower, may very well assume that the child is in serious danger. At the least this can provoke a dangerous confrontation, we can all imagine where a number of such events might lead.

So, these are “hard and fast” rules, needed to prevent NW from turning into an additional source of danger to the community where they work. So to re-cap, it’s not just that there’s a right way and a wrong way to provide a NW. It’s that the wrong way provides another danger to the community, just like the one we have here. These rules are fashioned by LEO professionals, both to eliminate the provision of a new danger to the community, and to keep the programs objectives within the bounds of the law.

Whatever else a NW’er may do, if they break these rules they’re given, it is the opinion of LEO professionals, that they would then be operating illegally.
This twin set of objectives, is what leave a jury no other choice but to enforce the NW rules. It is not “optional”, either you want a safe and sane NW in your community, or you want a group of ad hoc vigilantee’s, doing whatever they desire.

Unless someone believes that it is alright for the NW program to supplant the police, then they must make it clear that NW rules are as enforceable as law.
Because, NW’ers who step outside of these rules, are actually law breakers up to a point. There are only a very few situations where, a civilian is allowed to put themselves in harms way and not wait for LEO’s to respond. This, clearly was not one of them! Thus, if these rules are not enforced by a jury, at every opportunity, then Law Enforcement Officials, lose control of a program that can be very dangerous itself.

Again, let me stress, if GZ was not a trained NW’er, and he was following a suspicious person, then he may have been out of line for doing so, but we cannot know what rules he should have observed, because we don’t know what rules he was aware of.

While, on the other hand, we have a trained and informed NW’er who willfully sets aside the rules he has been given, and engages in the dangerous conduct the rules are designed to prevent. And that’s not to mention the several opportunities he had to unwind the hostilities by merely identifying himself and explaining his purposes!

While I see no evidence that TM actually struck GZ, I have to say that, if he did, it was only because he felt his personal activities were being dangerously intruded upon without good reason, by a person who could not, or would not, explain himself.

One thing no one can deny is, that Trayvon was due an answer when he asked “What are you following me for?” That question quite clearly demonstrates that Trayvon was being seriously put upon. GZ had no right to induce any such fears in anyone, not only because the law forbids it, but because his own rules should have forbade such conduct as well.

Instead GZ operates like the burglar who believes he has a right to be in your house, and therefore has a right to defend himself against your actions to control him. People who are excusing GZ from NW rules, are, in effect, saying that the burglar is somehow right!

I agree. I wonder if the police searched the grounds beyond the first grassy cut-through since they didn’t bother to do door-to-door searching for the whole block on either side of the cut throughs. What are we talking about — 12-15 houses on either side?

I wish they had reached Brandy Green’s home on the Retreat View Circle side and maybe they’d know Trayvon Martin wasn’t “john doe”. I wish they’d investigated the Twin Trees side more thoroughly as well and then we’d know for certain where George Zimmerman parked his Honda SUV before his wife moved it.

Give or take 25 feet or so, Zimmerman is toast if he tries to say he parked his vehicle anywhere other than where indicated on my map.

The clubhouse video from early the next morning could show the vehicle’s location. So could the dash cam from the responding police officers. And, I’ll be shocked if the investigators at the scene that night didn’t get at least a single picture of the parked vehicle. Why? Trayvon was doing something suspicious in the area per Zimmerman so they’d have a reason to comb his known path to the back corridor for stolen goods, weapons etc.

NLME that was a very interesting interview with the past coworkers. GZ is a con artist… I wish the anonymous caller would come forward, because it would be important to know what this guy did to her to make her so anxious. What if this was a past girlfriend or his wife? If people are truly scared of him, it may include his family.

Anonymous caller? The neighbor that was interviewed in disguise saying Zimmerman was an aggressive person that frequently profiled people? There’s a darn YouTube video somewhere — I just have to track it down.

Daniel I guess you have forgotten the domestic assault and assault of the officer, which were expunged for GZ’s record. If you are going to defend him, at least use the real past signs and signals. Look, I’ll give you that GZ was young when some of this stuff happened, but most none violent people don’t have these types of issues at all… This guy is no victim and is VERY calculating and likely intelligent. When the FBI profiles a killer or crime, they look at things like past behaviors. It IS relevant.

If Tracy Martin had looked out Brandy Green’s back window, what would he have seen? I don’t think the crime scene tape/markers were behind his home, but rather stopped further down the block (where they probably wouldn’t see in the darkness) because the police seem to have only blocked off section 1 and possibly section 2 of the townhouses. Brandy Green’s home would have been section 3 — out of viewable scope. IOW, nobody knew at the time of marking the crime scene that Zimmerman chased the child back down the path to where the slaying occurred.

Also, Brandy Green’s home is near the back entrance and she and Tracy Martin probably entered there — not seeing a thing related to what transpired in the hours prior to their arrival.

“He performs best with an audience and in situations. It’s not fitting… he’s more of a performer trying to make himself look good at the expense of others, not someone who is specifically out to get anyone.”

He *is out to get someone. He’s determined to not let his wrongfully perceived black young person get away. I *do agree that Zimmerman is skilled at performing in front of his audience and painting others as bad guys to make himself look like the good guy, like the hero.

The evidence of previous co-workers having the experience of first-hand experience of bullying them (or others) and interpreting Zimmerman’s need to put down others to ingratiate himself with the “in crowd” of non-minorities is very, very telling.

I have put some work on the witness that saw two people chasing each other. She is an interesting witness as her account also suggests a longer argument prior to the scuffle than what GZ states.

I’ve started with trying to locate the witness by using the edited report (cf. pp 40 & 41) and the witness location I have already provided. From that work, it appears the witness probably is Bahadoor Selene S living in 2841 RVC, the house right south from the Teacher’s and right north from Selma & Mary.

To find out the street name, I used a technique I’ve already used which is overlapping street names text (Retreat View Circle or Twin Trees Lane) with the text from the report to find out the edited address. The text from the report is a xeroxed from the original document, so there are distortions. However, I could get a very good match using bold-Arial font size 12 with minor resizing of the report. The only street name that would fit in the blacked out portion of the text is RVC.

From my previous work, I had the names of all home owners in the area. I had already identified most of the witnesses that we knew about. I’ve excluded them. That allowed me to focus on a smaller number of houses.

From the witness statements, we know she saw shadows of TM & GZ, she heard them arguing and she saw them fist fight all from her upstairs bedroom. Therefore, she had to be living near the spot of the scuffle.

Only one house matches all criteria given above that is the one on 2841 Retreat View Cir owned and occupied (she has a business running in there) by Selene Bahadoor (39).

Selene adds to DeeDee, the Teacher & Jonathan Manalo (not to be confused with Johnathan Good aka John) as witness of the seconds leading to the scuffle. In that sense, she is pretty key.

She was upstairs when she heard a commotion, which I understand as a loud argument. She looked out and saw the chasing between the 2 men 10-12 ft apart going north toward the T. Then she saw a fistfight and heard the gunshot.

From what I read the argument has started while they were still in a chase instead of having a chase followed by the argument.

GZ never stated that TM chased him. He said that TM approached him from the rear. He never stated that TM ran after him and that he ran away during their exchange of words.

Taken apart, none of the witness can give a good account of the events, but taken together, the story that is being drawn points to lies on GZ’s side.

We know that GZ’s lies often involve lies of omision based on leaving out his $200K revenue raise versus his indigent status, so I can agree with your synopsis that GZ lies — and he’s getting all caught up in his lies as more and more of the evidence is presented to the public. I understand from the news and from Zimmerman’s attorney, we’ve only gotten about half of the evidence. The State prosecution has much, much more.

Check out the Orlando Sentinal today. They have a video report on the front page of this witness recanting! She is now saying she only saw (heard?) feet running (and maybe only one person), but still attests to the fistfight.They are actually reporting that 2 witnesses are changing their stories.The lady who saw two people one atop the other is now sure the top person must have been Zimmerman because she now knows he was the far stockier person.
The lead line mentioned something about 4 witnesses changing their stories. The 3rd must be John. Who is the fourth?

“I truly can’t tell who, after thinking about it, was yelling for help just because it was so dark out on that sidewalk,” he said.

My note——————————=============———————–
Sounds like a comedy act: “I couldn’t see who was yelling because it was dark!”
——————————=============———————–

Zimmerman told him that Trayvon “was beating up on me, so I had to shoot him,” the witness told Serino. The Neighborhood Watch captain then asked the witness to call his wife, Shellie Zimmerman, and tell her what happened.

My note——————————=============———————–
You don’t have to shoot someone whose only beating you with their
hands. Especially not if you outweigh them by 60 or so lbs. All
you have to do is fight back with your hands. Instead GZ reached
for his gun.

In any event, the autopsy report doesn’t bear out that TM was
striking any blows, to what would have been GZ’s bloody face.
Blood is a very sticky substance, you can’t hit a bloody face and
not pick up dna! You can’t handle someone’s head and not pick
up dead skin cells with your hands.

He’ll probably change his story again, when the FBI interviews him.
——————————=============———————–

In two subsequent interviews about a month later — one with an FDLE investigator and one with de la Rionda — the witness described Zimmerman’s demeanor in greater detail, adding that he spoke as if the shooting were no big deal.

My note——————————=============———————–

Very odd for a person whose never killed anyone before and
who never intended to kill anyone then. I’ll leave that for the
psychologist to work out.
——————————=============———————–

Zimmerman’s tone, the witness said, was “not like ‘I can’t believe I just shot someone!’ — it was more like, ‘Just tell my wife I shot somebody …,’ like it was nothing.”

My note——————————=============———————–
That’s it??? Just tell my wife? Nothing in terms of personal
regret for a young human life taken? Sounds to me like he
came to this shooting psychologically prepared!

Now we really need to know how he get’s these wounds, since TM
never touched his head! Not every move out there was witnessed,
and there were people there moving around, that no one can say
what they were doing. Yet, the wounds seem to have congealed
blood on them, they don’t change shape or show orange spreading
from the rain. They have trails that seem to be already fixed in place.
Like they’re more than just a few minutes old.

Compare how they look in subsequent pictures, I don’t believe, if
more pictures were taken, you’ll see the blood has spread or the
trails extended. Hopefully more pictures than just that one were
taken then. Were there police taking pictures with their cell phones?
It seems there were. What say you all?

Daniel said: “Was TM somehow incapacitated…”? That is beyond speculation. The evidence indicates clearly that Martin was dominating the situation. This is to say that regardless of opinions about who started what, Martin was seen by multiple witnesses on top of Zimmerman beating the crap out of him.”

@Daniel: Apparently, only half of the evidence has been released for public viewing. I am beginning to think GZ fell and hit his head or nose when chasing and holding on to this kid. Too many people have been calling the interaction “wrestling”! I do think that TM was on top at some point, but when two people are wrestling they may trade positions. So who was on top at what time may not be relevant. I also don’t think the gunshot wound is consistent with TM being on top. Look at the position of the wound. If you are wrestling, how do you get the gun straight —between reaching for a holstered gun and wrestling—- in order to give a straight entry wound into the right ventricle. It would make more sense if it entered into TM’s side. Also the projectory had to have a slightly downward slant to deflect or continue downward between the 5th intercostal space of the lung. People here are talking about evidence and many witnesses testimonies not just about the words of GZ or one witness, Jon who saw a slit in time. If you read you will understand that Jon left and never saw the point of the shot going off, so he will not be a good witness for that point in the fight. Capish?

Exactly. There is no way that George Zimmerman shot Trayvon Martin from an on the ground position and achieved a straight in position. No possibility. None. I am not a forensic or crime scene expert and even I can see that just based on arm lengths and alternative scenarios.

Your description of wrestling is extremely speculative and interpretive. What you call wrestling seems to imply that the event is two-sided. I guarantee you there can be and have been very one-sided fights that could be described as wrestling. What’s more, the evidence supports the contention that it was one-sided as Martin didn’t exhibit any defensive wounding.

Given the ballistic evidence we have so far, it is completely unrealistic to suggest that Zimmerman was on his back when he shot Martin. I doubt anyone is currently suggesting that was the case. It seems evident that the two managed to put distance between themselves after the initial exchange. But we know Martin was facing Zimmerman when the shot was fired. “Shot in the back” would have been repeated a million times a minute if that were the case. We don’t know what motivated the pulling of the trigger. But we know the fight was one-sided and we know that Zimmerman must have been pretty badly shaken and possibly in a state of fear for his life.

Basically every witness called it a wrestling match or scuffle. There’s one witness that called it MMA style fighting but he later recanted this statement.

So that we’re on the same page: You know Zimmerman’s family doctor said he LIKELY had a broken nose (no X-rays needed?) and wounds that required soapy water (and didn’t even require a bandaid at the scene).

That is not an ass kicking. An ass kicking puts the victim in the ER with an unrecognizably swollen face for a few days/weeks. Moreover, the aggressor would end up with more than a single small abrasion below the ring finger knuckle.

There seems to be a LOT of recanting going on. This only helps Zimmerman’s defense. Recanting only means that a witness is less certain and less reliable. The physical evidence, which most definitely favors Zimmerman, will be the only reliable evidence in the case.

Not only that, but TM has no martial arts training. My guess
is that throwing MMA style punches requires some kind of
training. Did TM take martial arts courses? I didn’t see anyone
say that he did. Although, I get the impression that this witness
loves MMA programs. Will probably have CD’s to boot.

But the basic problem with TM throwing blows is, his hands have to exhibit contact with GZ, who’s bleeding and sloughing off cells. It doesn’t take
much in the way of contact with a person to pick up their dna. But there’s
no trace, no fibers, no dna on TM’s hands. So we can safely say they
did not come into contact with GZ in any manner, not just a violent manner.

Given this, I can just as easily say that GZ may have pulled TM down
on top of himself! If he did. But, it also seems more likely that the person
on top of GZ, if that was the case, wasn’t TM at all. Who knows? Because even after the shot is taken, there’s still time for GZ to get a few things done, even more if he has some help. I’m not saying that was the case, but just that I’m still thinking.

Hmmm… So here’s yet another opportunity for GZ to simply say: “I’m the Neighborhood Watch Captain, stop it! Instead GZ goes for his gun???
Why is he so intent on keeping his identity and title secret from TM?

At this point he has a clear idea that TM thinks he’s a hostile person!
Why does he continue to act with hostility? Is he mad because he’s
let this little teenager knock him down? Is his focus on getting even?
Is that why he dispenses with the opportunity to try to end the hostilities?

How come he never remembers how he got into trouble by assaulting a police officer who didn’t identify himself? The two ideas never seem to come together.
Even though, I’m certain that, that was one of the possibilities that was discussed and/or covered in that 14 hour course! That following could be mistaken by an innocent person as stalking for an illegal and perhaps dangerous purpose. Because that’s yet another reason why it shouldn’t be done. Most especially not with a weapon, since that raises the level to which such a misunderstanding can rise.

Actually, several witnesses used the word “wrestling”. I am not saying that Martin didn’t hit him in the dark. But he may have thought that was the only way to get away. I think that GZ tried to detain him somehow. How simple it would have been for GZ to introduce himself in the dark. Who follows people in the dark? If this were a woman and GZ got into a struggle with her, would our perception be different? A woman could be a criminal…. I guess the profiling is an issue because he didn’t wait for the cops and he scared another person by approaching too close and then ended up killing him. There is no evidence that this person had any reason to jump GZ. He had cash in his pocket and he retreated even though the law says that he didn’t need to. This was documented during the phone call to the dispatcher.

Also GZ says that he pulled the trigger while his head was being bashed into the ground. If it isn’t that, what is it? I think that he executed this kid by deliberately putting his weapon where he knew there was a heart.

If Trayvon is pinning his arms down as Zimmerman claims, wouldn’t the gun be behind Trayvon. So two questions – how does Trayvon go for the gun and more importantly how does Zimmerman get the gun. With all the verbiage spewed from the Zimmerman camp, they never once discuss how George gets his gun in position to shoot Trayvon.

This is a good article from OrlandoSentinel concerning 4 witnesses changing their accounts. It pretty much damages GZ’s defense. The last one from Flashlight draws a scary picture of GZ’s mind state that night.

Actually, four witnesses changing their accounts is not damaging to Zimmerman’s case. It is rather helpful to Zimmerman’s case. This is why the initial reports and interviews are the most important. Other people, discussion, speculation and even pressures have a way of changing our perceptions of what happened in the past. Any reasonably good defense attorney would make any story-changing witness look incredibly weak and unreliable. This is especially true of four accounts which were initially not similar became more consistent later… it speaks of collaboration.

The most important evidence will come from initial reports and forensic study. Anything after that tends to be warped by politics, and other human factors.

That the most damning testimony will likely be his own is true of most defense cases. Defense attorneys most often recommend the client not testify because this leaves them open to cross-examination. This is true in nearly all cases, not only in Zimmerman’s.

Your own belief that Zimmerman is essentially a sociopathic conman is in a bit of a conflict with the belief that he has told multiple, ostensibly conflicting stories of the events. To my experience those things are mutually exclusive. Conmen, and especially sociopathic conmen, are pretty good about keeping stories simple and believable. It allows them to be more consistent in the end and any deficiencies can be attributed to mental or emotional trauma of having just killed someone.

@tchoupi

1. No evidence? That eye witnesses saw one person beating another repeatedly about the face and that Zimmerman’s face and nose were consistent with those accounts? The “girlfriend witness” is always biased. Juries know this. Judges know this.
2. The former co-worker never asserted that he was violent. In fact, he started to assert to the contrary. I have no direct knowledge of the other assertions you have made. Produce a police report. Without it, it’s hearsay.
3. Good. We agree on that. The rest of the “revenge over truth” crowd doesn’t.
4. You ever been in a fight? I’ve been on both sides… the winning and the losing. Regardless of actual injuries suffered, the most critical is the injury to the brain while it’s going on. Thought, reasoning, logic, rationality — all gone in the blink of a survival instinct. Martin being right or left handed is nearly irrelevant. But clearly you show yourself as someone inexperienced in that area. But even a casual glance at fighters of all sorts would show you that they use BOTH hands. Of course “negative on fingernails.” If it were positive for DNA on fingernails, it would prove the fight was two-sided. Only defenders use fingernails especially in “wrestling.”
5. People can contradict each other and even themselves. That’s bad enough. But so far, I haven’t seen much in the way of Zimmerman’s actual testimony or statements. The real danger is when anything is said in contradiction of physical evidence. Has there been any?

There are reports of 5 different but occasionally similar stories from Zimmerman.

Not in a snarky tone but did you see the bond hearing? The prosecution questioned Zimmerman on why he didn’t remember certain details of that night whenever convenient. As previously noted, if Zimmerman on the stand would be like my Christmas as a kid, his stories being released would be like my birthday party.

That’s the thing isn’t it? You’ve got him all convicted and wrapped up before you’ve heard anything. That’s American justice isn’t it? Ideals like “beyond a reasonable doubt” and “until proven guilty” seem to mean nothing to you or most people.

And so far, there has been far more violence, destruction and hate as a result of this than the original incident. While this forum maintains its civility for the most part, it’s still one largely occupied by the “presumed guilty” side who seem as though they see this as a sport and they have placed all bets on the prosecution.

I think that it depends on how the story changes. It is clear that GZ contaminated witnesses by interacting with them on the scene. It is also clear from the report that the SPD’s investigation that they were partial to GZ and completely ignored victim’s right to have a proper investigation into his identity and homicide. I think that there is some pretty incriminating evidence that the defense is weighing on whether to release. I suspect that as people have been saying, GZ interacted with witnesses after the fact…

Daniel says: “This is especially true of four accounts which were initially not similar became more consistent later… it speaks of collaboration.”

You can’t cry conspiracy every time you’re contradicted. I’ve put hypothesis in here that happened to be contradicted later on. I just had to swallow it and build from it. Briefly, it may simply speaks of reason after emotion.

#####

Daniel says” “The most important evidence will come from initial reports and forensic study. Anything after that tends to be warped by politics, and other human factors.”

It makes sense that the defense would only feel comfortable releasing less damning evidence first. It also keeps the cash flowing in for longer. I think that these folks donating like he is a hero will feel like idiots once they release his emails and texts from after the incident. Also didn’t we see him on the phone in the bloodied head photo? I would really like to know who he was calling.

Your bring up some good points, and for the most part, I agree. I wonder how his supporters would feel if they knew, in addition to lying by omission about the funds in the Pay-Pal account, and indigency, etc., the family also lied about receiving death threats which caused them to move and allegedly quit their jobs. Shellie admitted it during the bond hearing.

Of course O’Mara would love nothing more than ride this out, if only for his own benefit.

Now, I slightly disagree with you about this latest 183 page media dump. Quite frankly, I don’t think O’Mara wanted some of this evidence to come out and this point. IMHO, it is not favorable, or “less damaging” to his client.

I’ve not seen anything that sheds a positive light on his client. At first it was just heresay about him having racist behavior, now there are witnesses who state that he does, and have been known to act in racist ways.

Even Ofc. Timothy Smith states in his narrative, on least 4 different occasions he offered him a chance to be taken to the ER or have SPF come take another look at him and he refused each time.

He stated he checked on him every 15-20 minutes while being interviewed at the station if he needed anything, and all he asked for was tissues, water, and to use the bathroom.

I’m still looking for the bloody nose photo with the 2 black eyes, or anything that remotely resembles “The Shaking Baby Syndrome”.

…And he’s not in pain. Pain has to be the aftermath of any serious beating. After the shooting there should have been some post traumatic stress. My guess is, that is what the officer was looking for. That he didn’t find it is telling.

I breezed by an article yesterday that mentions that the donations seem to have dried up. He’s getting less than 1k a day now, in amounts of just 5 and 10 dollars. I think it was either a Wapo, Huffpo or some other news site. I was only looking at the biggs then, circulation near or over a million.
Maybe it was an Orlando or Miami paper website. I can’t remember because I was looking for something else.

From your reply to post 77, I can see that you’re getting the bug. So, welcome to this blog. Even if I have to admit that the blog is biased against GZ, it really is discussing facts. You won’t find much disparaging, insulting, political comments. No conspiracy theory is needed.

Still, you have some way to go before you really get your facts straight:
1) There is no evidence TM attacked GZ. None. Zip. There is one witness who says so and that witness happens to be the killer. Moreover, there is a counter witness who saw nothing bet heard it all. That is DeeDee. She was on the phone all the way from the 7-11. She has her story to tell and it can’t be dismissed because the killer says something different.
2) In your reply to 77, you state that you can’t see GZ being violent. You’ll have to explain that to the lady threw by anger when he worked as a security guard (he was fired for that), or to the cop a fought with while being arrested, or to his ex-fiance. He had to take anger management training. The mister Hyde, as his former co-worker called him, may still be around after all.
3) Racism… I never bought into it either. NMLE can confirm it. However, there is more and more report suggesting he had a problem of that nature. I’ll wait to see if I have to change my views on that.
4) Beaten the crap out… Definitely not. Sure he had a bloody head after his introduction to TM but nothing serious. You can read the medical report from SFD. He was cleared to go with SPD right on the spot. He was certainly not massacred by TM. Even John, the only witness who saw TM punching GZ, now says that the MMA-style comment was wrong. There is zero evidence on TM’s body of a major fight, just on cut to a left-hand finger (you can see from the 7-11 video that he was right handed => no evidence he was punching for a minute). There is zero DNA evidence he grabbed GZ’s head to bang it on the pavement (Negative DNA test to finger-nails 7 cuffs/lower sleeves). Okay, not finding DNA doesn’t mean there was none. It only means it was below the detection level.
5) Finally, beyond being contradicted by DeeDee, GZ’s stories are not consistent with many witnesses’ and even not self-consistent.

Wow! I hadn’t even read your post here yet and I posted something similar above regarding DeeDee. She did hear it all right up to the confrontation. The defense can’t seem to get around that and instead try to attack her character.

Wow! As always, you are just so amazing! Thank you for calling that out, and with such accurate information.

I’m just dumbfounded by the fact that there are some people who are willing to suspend all logic and common sense in order to have this travesty fit their narrative.

I do feel a large majority of the people posting here are trying their best to be OBJECTIVE despite the overwhelming evidence that shows Detective Chris Serino had good reasons for wanting to arrest the confessed murderer, and attempted to do just that.

And it goes without saying, if the SP did not have cause, there would not have been an arrest.

Even O’Mara has to operate with a healthy dose of objectivity if he is to be of the greatest assistance to his client.

Daniel, you replied to my post in an earlier one.
I would again recommend that you to watch closely the details. you can find most of them in police reports without relying on medias.

1) You state that there is a witness that was beating up GZ. That witness is Johnathan Good aka John, he lives in 1221 Twin Trees Lane. The scuffle happened right at his back porch. He indeed is the one having the best view on what happened. Nevertheless, what he saw is the scuffle, not what lead to it. This is a huge difference. We don’t need John’s statement to know there was a scuffle between the 2 men. The only information you can get out of John’s account is that TM was on top of GZ at some point about 1min before the gunshot. Finally, John is one of the 4 witnesses who came later saying that actually, TM was not beating GZ so hard, which we already knew from the fact that his ambulance was recalled and from the SFD’s report.
2) Actually the co-worker called GZ Dr Jekyll & Hyde. GZ was fired for violently dealing with a drunk female customer. (http://articles.orlandosentinel.com/2012-03-30/news/os-george-zimmerman-trayvon-martin-coworker-20120330_1_security-guard-full-report-worker). For the rest, they aren’t hearsays. GZ went before justice for violence on a police officer (you must have seen the mugshot). He was actually ordered a anger management course. GZ also had a restraining order filed against him by his ex-fiance. So, it is pretty well documented.
3) We agreed on that one
4) I have to agree with you that I’m not an expert in street fighting. That said, I did/do enough martial arts over the course of my life to know that being left or right hand makes a difference. In any case, that was not my comment. Point #3 was about the fact that whatever beating GZ received, and in spite of the bloody pictures, his wounds were all superficial and required no medical treatment. This is also very well documented. And the fact that John now says TM was actually not MMA fighting just confirms what Emergency people said. Actually, at that time GZ agreed with it without realizing that by seeking no treatment and by looking for a doctor’s approval to go to work the next day, he was killing a line of defense.
5) The documents concerning GZ’s testimony haven’t been released yet. However, the bond hearing shows that GZ’s self contradictions is the prosecution’s big line of attack. For example in one account GZ states that he pulled his gun and killed TM because he feared for his life while in another account he said TM saw the weapon, said something like “you’re going to die tonight”, a fight for the weapon followed and GZ won. This is just one example among many others. The message here is that GZ lies about the events on that night. he would have been the victim, he won’t need lies.

I agree with you that it does make a difference which hand is one’s dominant hand contrary to what Daniel seems to think.

The confessed murderer apparently thought it was important enough to mention to SPD during their investigation that Trayvon covered his mouth with his LEFT-HAND, preventing him from breathing or yelling for help, while repeatedly bashing his head into the concrete.

I’m sure this, as well as his many versions of the incident will come up during the trial.

I have studied martial arts, and the only “safe” way to hit someone in the head is a ridge strike or a palm strike (safe for the martial artist so you don’t break your hands, I mean). (Okay, you can kick them in the head, too, but that’s harder in a street fight than you’d think.)

For a ridge strike, make the stereotypical “karate chop hand” with the thumb ticked under: the striking surface is the top of the index finger back to the base of the thumb. This is a blow you’d use to strike someone (perhaps quite fatally) at the temple, where the bone is not so thick. A knife strike is the same hand position but uses the opposite side of the hand much like a karate chop, but isn’t real useful for a head strike, it’s more what you would use on the neck or a joint.

For a palm strike, make your hand like you plan to claw something, fingers folded over but not obscuring the palm. Thumb is usually cocked back a little: the striking surface is the heel of the palm, what you are doing with your fingers and thumb is getting them out of the way so they don’t get broken.

If you strike a person in the head with a closed fist, you risk cutting your hand on their teeth (think severely nasty bacteria in the mouth infecting that cut too); if you strike a cheekbone, chin, or the skull, it’s very much like hitting a wall or punching your refrigerator, and at the LEAST you will skin up your knuckles, they will swell and bruise, and if real force went into it, expect boxer’s fracture.

As for bashing a skinhead into the ground in a light rain where it’s damp and he’s struggling, no hair for traction? No way, José! I’d think if you tried, you’d end up shoving your thumbs into the victim’s eyeballs. This is also not what a martial artist would do from this position, when there are many better ways to kill or disable.

Zimmerman’s nicks and scrapes on his head and face simply do not match a palm or ridge strike. He’d have bruising or worse with a ridge strike. A palm strike would have shoved his nose back into his face (which if done hard enough is fatal), or snapped his head back, possibly knocking him down, and he’d have been complaining of a whiplash injury.

Mary and her roommate observed Zimmerman putting his hands to his had in what they called “the universal gesture of OMG what have I done”. I think he was using that time to gouge small divots in the back of his head, personally. It’s not hard to do, and lots of people do it simply as a nervous habit. That would get those VERY small bleeding wounds.

NLME said:
“The middle eastern coworker that was harassed by Zimmerman stated during his interview with investigators that George was very convincing.”

Zimmerman thought this as well. His myspace page attests to this as well as his complete snow job on his family. One of the attorneys for the Martin family represented Sherman Ware, the homeless man assaulted by the SPD cop’s son. The Zimmerman family has put forth that he was out passing out flyers in support of Sherman Ware. One problem, the attorney, Natalie Jackson has never met Zimmerman and she was highly involved in the awareness campaign and protest as Ware’s lawyer.

His belief in his ability to be convincing is also evidenced by his arrest. O’Mara likes to say now that Zimmerman turned himself in. He didn’t. He had been trying to contact the prosecutors office for a few days to talk to them sans lawyer. On the day he was arrested, he went into the Jacksonville prosecutors office to talk with them, unscheduled and unannounced. Coincidentally, the charges came down while he was in the office and he was detained and arrested. O’Mara stated this the day of Zimmerman’s arrest in an article. Zimmerman had no idea he was going to be arrested but figured he could smooth it over if he could just talk to them. I can provide links if anyone needs it and apologies if this has already been discussed.*

* This may have come from the Orlando Sentinel article. If so, I won’t be able to get it because they’ve placed me behind a pay wall for accessing their website frequently. Hmmm…what a way to make a buck!

Natalie Jackson has changed her blog to private. She did post an open letter about Sherman Ware there and posted the link on twitter. No doubt she has moved it to private due to the high profile nature of the case and other unsavory issues. Here is the link http://attorneynataliejackson.wordpress.com

The lawyer has expressed fears for Zimmerman’s safety and he said Zimmerman went to the prosecutor’s office in Jacksonville Wednesday out of concern for his safety, unaware he would be arrested and charged with murder.

I’ve posted this on your blog about 1 1/2 month ago. I guess you didn’t see it. Don’t feel too bad, doesn’t seem as though anybody else saw it either. I can only imagine how busy you must be, trying to respond to each and every post. No problem, here it is again.

Sgt. Anthony Raimondo was the first high ranking officer on the murder crime scene of Trayvon Martin. I’m still trying to figure out what in the he$$ was he still doing on active duty 6 weeks after he covered up the savage beating of Mr. Sherman Ware. And to think that this is the same officer who, according to SPD police report, administered CPR to Trayvon.

In the video, you can actually hear the friends of Justin Collison, Lt. Collison’s son, telling him he’s wrong for what he is doing.

Something tells me the same person who wrote Wolf’s letter is the same person who wrote “The Zimmerman Family” letter. Both letters have the same, identical tone.

What’s really interesting about “The Zimmerman Family” letter is that it literally tells the NAACP to “call off your dogs”. Now this is coming from people who claim to not have a racist bone in their body, but they or their proxy, sends out a letter spewed with race hate, to the point of calling black people dogs. Go figure.

Sherman Ware has come up a few times tonight and I’m clueless. I read stuff about a cop, cop’s son, beating, homeless man, Martin family lawyer, Zimmerman saying he passed out flyers but may not have, etc. and have given up until I get in front of a PC again and can do some research.

And, again, I truly apologize for missing your comments. There was a stretch where I was basically just approving anything that wasn’t spam and/or leaving very brief responses to comments.

No need for an apology, no “snarky tone” taken. I tried my best in the last post to summarize it. Unfortunately, there are no short narratives other than Wolf’s.

We’re talking about, what 5 different links/stories?

Like I said before, I know you’re busy, don’t worry about responding until you’ve had a chance to read the links. I can wait. And besides, the people who post here have one another to exchange information with until you have time to read some of the post.

You’ve been kind of enough to allow us into your “living room” to share our insights about this needless murder of an unarmed teenager, the least I can do is allow you time to digest the information and re-group before you respond.

To take a page out of the confessed murderer’s book,
“Please accept my apologies” if I appeared to be pressing you for a response, and know that is never my intention.

@ No Longer Mass Emailing – No I didn’t read it in the same link. I based it on his prior two attorneys comments and the Prosecutors comments. He had been trying to talk to the prosecutors office for a few days and he finally came in from out of state against attorneys advice, really scared for his safety right, to talk to the prosecutors. I don’t believe he needed to speak to the prosecutors office about his safety. Connecting all the dots, IMO, he figured he could talk his way out of it as he had done so many times before, even bragging about doing just that on his myspace page.

David: I think his dominant hand will matter in determining where the bullet enters and where the victim is. I am envisioning GZ as being more toward the sidewalk and TM toward the houses when the shot went off. If he was right-handed the location of that shot would be impossible on the ground. He would have to be left-handed and above TM. If TM were on the ground and GZ were standing above him that would be almost execution style.

The Kel-Tec shown in the police info dump is clearly a right-handed gun, The clip release and slide release levers are on the left side, where you’d be able to get at them with your thumb. Lefties but left handed guns (they are available!) with a reversed configuration.

Question: What does it say about a 28 year old who has tattoos? I disapprove but he’s an adult and he can do what he wants.

Question: What does it say about a 17 year old [minor] who has tattoos? It says lots more. It says his parents aren’t watching or caring. It says he defies his parents if they were watching or caring. It also says he travelled in circles and circumstances where a 17 can get a tattoo as most professionals wouldn’t touch a 17 year old.

Like it or not, we have two standards. One for adults and one for minors. And for good reason.

I don’t think tattoos make a bad or misguided person. I was pointing out that Zimmerman apparently has a fondness for acting, performing, being on the stage, etc. This makes sense given what we’ve seen so far.

Minors can have tattoos if permission granted by parents. Tracy Martin has at least…who’s to say that maybe he was with Trayvon at the time or gave permission for them. Stop acting like he’s the first and only rebellious teen! Since when did ‘inking’ become a ‘Profession’?!

The tattoo story is just childish. Nothing in TM’s or GZ tatoos suggest they are gang members. TM tattoed his mom’s name. GZ seem to have some interest for acting, at least that’s what his tattoos show. There is no gang sign tattooed, no kind of reference to violence or whatever in either individual.
So, that tattoo story is just a waste of time. I was being sarcastic when I referred to GZ’s tattoos because some tried to depict TM as a thug using his tattoos as evidence. The issue is that they often had to dig for pictures of young black males that were not of TM to make their point. That’s why I had a good laugh when I read the autopsy report stating that TM’s teeth were all natural and in good health.

They had already proven that a white supremist faked those pictures of Trayvon that are still circulating, he owned up to doing it and was proud of it. Now we have a fight video that claimed it ia Trayvon fighting but this too has been proven false. Only people who are ignorant and know nothing of the case take this crap ans run with it because it makes them feel good. It is disgusting, the child is dead, what more do they want!!! Zimmerman is not nearly portrayed in such a way as Trayvon, he is just getting a pass all the way around isnt he !! The truth is, they know in their heart of heart Zimmerman is guilty, they only support Zimmerman because he killed a black kid point blank. Why else would the likes of a white supremacist and the likes of Bill Oreilly support Zimmerman. I am so sick of hearing about Al Sharpton etc, all this is brought up so they can justify their hate. Trayvon never asked for Al Sharpton to come to town because he is dead. Why is it that none of the hate is placed on the Sanford police and Zimmetman himself but instead they keep attacking Trayvon and his family. Calling them niggers, dogs, welfare recipients etc. I hope Zimmerman is proud of himself, what would his mothers father say or all those so called African American kids he mentored. What a piece of crap he and his lieing family who has covered his track for years is. He is a psycho and his anger and rage is out of control. Why else would a doctor prescribe a last ditch effort drug like adderall, this medicine is still being studied in labs in Universities. They wont even give it to kids, they try to stick to ritilin with them. This is, if he actually has adhd. We all assumed adhd but being in the medical field myself, I know doctors will prescribe drugs that are used for certain diseases on a patient just because of a certain situation. He is seeing a psychiatrist as well. I have a question, are there xrays for Zimmermans nose and head, I would like to know what it says, but I feel like their arent any. Zimmerman only went to the doctor so he could go back to work, was this related to the shooting or did he call in sick for something? I am curious as to how someone could kill a person and be so calm, if I killed somebody I would be a nervous wreck. Sorry for any typos I am using my phone. Thanks

I apologize, I totally misunderstood you. I have followed this case from day one and I may have become somewhat obsessed with details, evidence, etc. I love this site, having people who have the intellect to discuss this case and actually use facts is great. Thanks

I’d be interested in seeing these crosses, many groups select certain types of crosses to symbolize their ideals. GZ doesn’t impress as a particularly religious person. So these crosses may just hint at an affiliation.

Often tat artist will advise customers as to just what a certain image means.
Especially if it has been adopted by a gang or groups, the customer might not want to be associated with, even if they just picked the image because they think it is cool.

riisey i agree. Blaming the victim has come to an all new low in this case. I always wonder why some people are so hell bent on defending zimmerman and to the degree they go to vilify the victim of a shooting. Sometimes i just think it is because race got brought into it which pisses people off, but how is that enough to justify the outright hate filled rants by so called adults on an unarmed dead teen and his grieving family.

Also your comment about zimmerman wanting work clearance is a good one. I remember Taaffe or someone saying that zim was devestated and kept crying because of his distress, but the doctor said he sought treatment to get clearance for work (was he working at the time? i thought he wasn’t but never mind), doesn’t sound like someone who was cut up over the loss of life and crying all the time if he was just concerned with going back to work.

The defense of Zimmerman that we’re seeing across the internet isn’t entirely race driven.

Should Zimmerman be convicted, it’s a huge blow to the NRA and gun owners alike — regardless of their race (though the NRA is predominately made up and run by whites*).

So, that’s who is defending Zimmerman the most adamantly right now. Without being said, The NRA has the money and power to drive the narrative (I’m talking to you ABC News, Fox News, etc). Well, until the trial that is.

Daddy probably told him to get a doctor’s note and stay out of sight. The clearance piece was probably just to cover his absence for work the next week or so because he knew he would need to be hiding from his friends, co-workers and neighbors — people that would ask more detailed questions about what’s under the bandage he had on the next day. He needed nobody to see him.

His employer, Digital Risk, put out a statement almost a month after the murder to say that George Zimmerman hasn’t been at their office since the death of Trayvon Martin.

of course the NRA,i should have connected the dots, a lot of people throw out the ‘thug’ and ‘gang’ references and try to justify the shooting and yes it probably is more likely NRA related than a dislike of the ‘race card’ being used (i hate that term). I come from a country where we thankfully don’t have to deal with groups like the NRA or much gun related crime (a shooting makes national headlines) so i kind of forget how huge they are and what an influence they have. But now that you have mentioned it i am pretty sure that most of the malicious crap written about Trayvon and his family is probably coming from gun owners/NRA members (not all of course)….i guess it doesn’t look so good for them that trayvon was just a normal teenager and makes the argument to carry guns stronger if they can make out the victim to be a thug, gang member, delinquent, theief, druggie from a neglectful, greedy, oportunist family.

Heh – the comment about tattoos seemed out of nowhere. I’ve not read the article in a long time. I think the Zimmerman camp has done a lot of projecting and while I didn’t know he had tattoos, it doesn’t surprise me.

On another related vein, much is made of Trayvon’s THC levels but the only people that I’ve ever encountered that have refused medical care for wounds, cuts, etc. bleeding are those who do not want to have their blood tested. It boggles the mind that he refused care and then went to the family doctor. The reason they didn’t want their blood tested is because of some type of illicit drug use. Suggestive theorizing but in the face of the verbiage that the Zimmerman camp spewed the refusal of medical treatment is just such a salient point IMO.

And I’ll add, Zimmerman went to the family doctor the next day to get clearance to return to work. Under those circumstances, I can see a family doctor fudging some details. I don’t think the doctor had any indication that his report would end up central to high profile murder case. I would look at the report side-eye until that doctor testifies under oath. At the same time, the doctor also has a vested interested to stick with his story of the report, also something to keep in mind.

They could potentially still test him for drugs. There is a 90 day window that drugs are detected in a hair sample. I’m hoping that TMs family attorneys or someone was smart enough to request that. The longer they wait the smaller that window gets. But there is still a possibility that they could find out exactly what zimmerman was on

You continue to bring up some very valid points and observations. I’ve not read any articles, or anything in the latest 183 page dump, that indicates the confessed murderer ever told his doctor he had been in a scuffle with, or just murdered an unarmed teenager the night before.

ER doctors have a tendency to be more clinical in their assessments of injuries. They ask questions that you feel have absolutely nothing to do with your reported symptoms. If he in fact had a broken nose, ER’s are more likely to take x-rays, cat scans, urinalysis, blood work, etc.

They are also required by law to ask very specific questions if you are a suspected or known victim of a crime, and would have been very inclined to question him thoroughly about the nature of his injuries, especially if he’s being escorted by LE. I’m sure the confessed murderer knew this, and that’s why he went out of his way to reject any serious medical evaluations that night.

Didn’t the medical report indicate the family doctor was concerned about Zimmerman’s mental well-being after the shooting and suggested he see his psychologist? I’m going off of memory only.

I also agree regarding Zimmerman’s refusal to visit the ER. Worth noting: If the responding officers and/or EMTs thought Zimmerman had something as “small” as a concussion, he would have been heading to the ER without the option to visit the Police Dept instead.

Another interesting factoid – Officer Mead was on the scene that night. He indicates in his report that he knew Zimmerman was Neighborhood watch. I also believe Off Mead did the initial canvass. Want to figure out how the witness tampering, IMO, it starts with Mead.

Mead did not interview ‘John.’ Ricardo Ayala did. In fact, John was the only witness Ayala took a statement from. Doing the canvas was not part of his job. So, why is the only witness who talked to the officer that WASN’T on the canvas assignment, the one on whom the whole self-defense thing hinges? Could be coincidence — maybe John came out of his unit to look at the dead body in his backyard, and Ayala was right there, having just turned over his futile attempts to revive Martin to another officer. But the weird thing is Ayala does not mention talking to witnesses or anything like that in his written section of the police report. Strange.

TM & GZ, both had tatoos, and both may have had drug in their systems.
In the case of TM, this is already known that he had pot.
Now I find that GZ is on prescription drug and that these drugs may have side effects causing paranoia.

Quoting from above: “But, this is different. The Sanford Police Department – so, individuals that should be highly skilled/trained with situations like this – should be embarrassed they were (originally) duped by a convincing man whose story didn’t even add up on the night of the shooting.”

In regards to that, every LEO assumes that everyone is lying about something, which is a good assumption because it’s really true a lot of the time. Cops also get a good sense for when something is “hinky”, when the story doesn’t add up right.

I think a lot of this “hinky radar” comes from experience. People who are lying are literally “shifty”, they shift their eyes away from yours, often in short darting glances.

A person who is completely pulling a lie out of their ass will tend to look up and to their right. Note that the direction may depend on the person’s handedness, and is due to left brain vs. right brain processing.

Add into the general hinky meter an increasing feeling of hinkiness when evidence and witness statements don’t line up.

The fact that the investigators wanted to file charges and were over-ridden says to me that their hinky meters were telling them that there was a bunch of deep bullshit laying around in evidence.

Some people fall to pieces right away from any shock. Some don’t for days, weeks or months later. Look at the difference in the witnesses, a few were matter-of-fact about it even while it was going on, one fell to pieces and had to be comforted, on the phone, for 14 minutes.

Once he had a few minutes to physically recover (eg regain his breath, adrenalin to go back to normal) he’d not have to be visibly shaken.

But the blank look in the eyes could be a sign of being affected. (Also a good pose to adopt on purpose, to reduce “tells” like looking shifty when lying).

I’d like to see a map of the crime scene with positioning of the witness, abstracts of their statements, and the timing of what they witnessed. That would give us a clearer picture.

The whole “wrestling” characterization paints a picture of GZ trying to detain TM, while TM is trying to escape from his attacker.

We know from the glasses of lady that someone was running. We know another witness says the argument started farther away and got louder as it got closer. None of this fits “he cold cocked me at the T and beat me nearly to death”…

I think maybe TM was by his house, GZ came up and pushed him attempting to tackle (as Dee Dee heard) and hold TM until police arrived. Here the initial shouting occurs. “Stop!” “Let me go! Get off me!” TM got up or pulled away, and ran towards the T. Zimmerman follows, and again grabs TM’s clothes. Perhaps he pulls TM down, and this is the wrestling people see.

The whole time there is an argument that people hear. Has to be Zimmerman saying don’t move and Trayvon saying leave me alone. If anyone wants to imagine a different sentiment to the argument, go ahead and propose one – nothing else fits.

Zimmerman’s face injury could also be an elbow to the face; that would be very likely if GZ is grabbing TMs hoodie, while TM Is trying to run away. TM might easily spin around with his elbow and catch GZ in the face.

GZ might have been knocked to the pavement, scratching his head. Then GZ draws his gun. Grabs TM’s hoodie again, spins him around and the gun goes off. TM falls to the ground.

If you just look at what the physical evidence of the calls, we know GZ saw and convicted a criminal. He called police who are on their way. He follows TM. An Argument occurs, then a struggle. Clear motive on the part o GZ the whole time – he wants to capture this kid for the cops!

TM on the other hand, is freaked out, scared, and running away. No motive to attack a crazy, creepy stalker, until the stalker physically attacks him.

Yes, Toneli, this fits in neatly with the idea they both went down Twin Trees, NOT the inside path. TM loses GZ near the end cut-through, feels it’s safe to sit on his own porch talking to DD. GZ comes up the path from near the southern gate. TM challenges “why are you following me” and the argument/grabbing/chasing ensues back UP the internal path to quite near the T.

Certainly just making a grab for the hoodie is enough of a physical assault, on top of the earlier following, to entitle TM to hit GZ in self defence. If the gun then becomes visible in any way, he is totally entitled to fight, trying to prevent it being used. GZ said he’d “forgotten” he had the gun until he noticed that TM had noticed it (not saying how, exactly) so GZ himself is saying there was a fight over the gun.

Only he’s claiming it was after TM had knocked him down without provocation, because if he pulled the gun first, TM is entitled to Stand His Ground and that blows GZ’s use of it out of the water.

Don’t forget somewhere between drawing the gun and the shot, he’s got full control of it and TM is begging for his life.

If they both originally ran down Twin Trees and not the inside path, Zimmerman’s vehicle would have to be parked closer/further to/from the clubhouse (“Shit, he’s running” at the 2:08 mark). This would also mean Zimmerman could have clearly seen house addresses to his south or directly behind him since he wouldn’t be directly by the cut through. And, then the timing of Trayvon starting AT the clubhouse and then walking towards his parked vehicle (:55-1:00+) is all whacked out as well.

Nevermind – we may have a new map coming!!! “Shit – he’s running” at 2:08 could still happen given where I’ve placed Zimmerman’s vehicle.

But, instead of looking in his rear view mirror – there’s a change in his tone of an extending neck/face – Zimmerman would be looking over his left shoulder or mirrors at Trayvon walking/starting to run down Twin Trees. This also coordinates well with Zimmerman saying Trayvon is running towards to back entrance. But, again, I’m giving Zimmerman absolutely ZERO credibility with offering directions since he failed throughout the entire call.

So, Trayvon starts running south on Twin Trees around 2:08 of Zimmerman’s 911 call. Zimmerman leaves his vehicle around 2:15, starts chasing Trayvon south on Twin Trees around 2:17, mentions that “He ran” just past the first gap between the buildings around 2:39 (Trayvon is just about to turn east on Twin Trees at that same time), and Zimmerman no longer has the unarmed teen in sight. Zimmerman slows his pace around 2:47 – well after being told to stop following Trayvon – and either continues walking or stands. You can clearly hear audible clicking, tapping, knocking, etc. noises starting around the 2:49 mark and Zimmerman’s 911 call which ends around 4:12.

In the meantime, Trayvon is on his back porch catching his breath and talking to Dee Dee. Note: I assume he let Chad know he was home and that some creepy dude was chasing him but maybe not. As – or shortly after the 911 call ends – Zimmerman continues stalking, harassing, and preying upon his unarmed neighbor by proceeding east on Twin Trees instead of returning to his vehicle as instructed.

While walking east on Twin Trees, Zimmerman spots Trayvon on his porch talking to Dee Dee and heads north towards the teen. In an attempt to protect Chad and/or not allow a stranger to somehow enter his house, Trayvon runs away from the porch towards the T to the north and the scuffle, wrestling match, etc. begins south of it.

An armed Zimmerman doesn’t want to be seen by Police getting pinned down by an unarmed teen when he’s supposed to be playing the role of hero and pulls the trigger as police sirens can presumably be heard approaching the gated community.

OMG – this is obviously worse for Zimmerman’s defense than my original final map. If y’all have been suggesting this chase route, my bad for not concentrating enough.

NLME: I think that this is an interesting assessment. I have been wondering if there is evidence somehow that he tried to make it home. That would be big, perhaps a key in the grass, the button being on the porch, etc. They never list the button in the victims belongings. I believe someone mentioned this before. Perhaps the other kid saw him talking outside and thought he was on his way in and thought no more of it. If talking on the porch was his usual habit, you wouldn’t think twice about it. It also exposed a deep prejudice regarding the SPD assertion that TM should have simply gone into the house, while GZ hunted him down. Why should he? TM had every right to be in that pathway.

Was Chad home waiting for TM?
I looked thru the list of items belonging to TM found on the crime scene and I could not find any (house) key. I was wondering how he planned to go back home and whether he lost his keys.

Good call. If Chad wasn’t home, Trayvon could have been locked out (assuming there were no keys found at the scene). If Chad was home, Trayvon intelligently ran away so that there weren’t two potential victims of whatever the unidentified guy was doing.

I wonder if a neighbor of Brandy Green’s heard anything. Thus, Brandy Green was able to say Trayvon was on her porch and then somebody chased him north to the T where he was shot. Hmmmmm

maybe chad saw that trayvon had returned home and was outside finishing his phone call to his girlie. Maybe he wasn’t too worried because he knew trayvon had made it home from the shop and was safe, so when he didn’t come in later assumed he’d gone off to meet who he was chatting to.

Your comment: “They never list the button in the victims belongings. I believe someone mentioned this before.”

If you go to (page 4 of 7, 82 or 183) THE MEDIA DUMP, you’ll see the photo button listed amongst the victims items included in the SPD’s “Evidence-Property” report as follows:

(typed it exactly as it is worded in the dump)
“One (1) red “711” brand name lighter, photo button, bag of skittles, and headphones.
and collected from with in the victim’s pockets.
DMS-11 (1) CARTRIDGE CASE

The confessed murderer even mentions “the button” to the dispatcher in his “just too impeccable of a description” during the Non-emergency call.

This gives me the strong impression the confessed murderer saw Trayvon earlier while it was still daylight.

His description of Trayvon’s clothing, color of clothing and shoes, etc. is just too exact when you consider it’s dark and raining. It all gives the impression his actions were pre-meditated.

(1) There is no freaking way Trayvon would have seen this gun unless Zimmerman had drawn the gun.

(2) There is no freaking way that Zimmerman could have drawn this gun with another man sitting astride him. When you are sitting on someone whaling on them, you do not sit on their knees, you sit astride their waist. I do not know many males in a fight would would allow their opponent to go on a crotch fishing expedition, as Zimmerman would have had to do to get at his gun. If the guy under you appears to be going for your nuts, I’m pretty sure most guys will go for that hand to stop that motion.

I’ve been an avid reader on this blog (so much so that it is flagged as a fave so i can jump right to it) and one thing I havent seen is the evidence mapped out. In looking at the pictures that were leaked and the evidence dump a few things stood out.

1. TM didn’t have house keys so he could have very well kept moving if he wasnt able to get in the house and saw GZ coming towards him on his porch. If from a distance maybe he kept moving or took off. Which would have given GZ the idea that maybe he was trying to break in, and completely dismissing the fact that TM lived/was staying there.

2. As mentioned by a previous poster the FRONT of GZs clothes were wet and soiled. Mainly his lower pant legs and boots, as well as his back. So maybe TM did get him on his back at some point, but the lower pant legs and boots being wet/grassy would indicate he was on top.

3. the dried blood in the pictures showing the wounds on the back of GZs head (picture 14, picture 19, picture 23 which has been wiped away but you can still see the traces of blood along his jaw line leading to his beard) all of these running at an angle and NOT straight down would indicate that GZ was on top and looking down. If he was at the bottom for too long after these wounds occured or even standing straight up and looking forward then the blood would be running in an entirely different path.

4. ANOTHER THING THAT SHOULD BE ADDED TO THE MAP – EVIDENCE!!!!! Keep in mind that I do believe that GZ followed him, and as someone who has had a couple people follow me (maybe I was just a paranoid young girl at the time afraid of being kidnapped) but you do take different paths when trying to get away or even avoid leading them to your home when you know you will be there alone). But if you look at the pictures and consider DeeDees statement that the phone just dropped they would have to have started at the T. I’ll attempt to break it down a bit for you and forgive me if its rushed since I am at work.

Trayvons body was a distance from where he dropped his cell phone which would indicate that something happened to make him try to get away and just say forget the cell phone… In picture number 3 we can place his body somewhere between the two white fences in the middle of the grass/closer to the witnesses back door… And the cell phone near the walkway in front of the black covering on the first porch…. look at the picture number 7 is in daylight. Pay attention to that plastic covering in the grass… Picture 7 is similar to the night picture which shows trayvons body in picture 13. Flip through the pictures to number 55. Trayvons cell phone is near that same plastic covering in the grass also indicated as marker 7. This tells me that either he tried to get away and zimmerman grabbed him which started the fight, or the scuffle started where he dropped his phone and they wrestled a bit….

I would like to know a definite distance of where the cell phone was from the body. But I guess we wont get those measurements until we get the full evidence…I would also like to know, as I’ve seen it mentioned before whether gz called Taeffe or another NWer to help him trap TM. That 2nd person showing up right after the shot is sort of strange especially if someone was RIGHT there and they aren’t even a witness to it. Seems suspicious. I think they were trying to corner him… And I also heard TWO shots when I listened to 911 tapes. Seems kind of strange that they assume he’d be the only NWer with a gun if they seem to be peas in a pod it that was Taeffe that showed up. Maybe he fired a warning shot and GZ did the fatal shot. That being said we wont know since in the reports the officer says they went over once with the metal detector, found nothing, changed the settings and found something and stopped searching… Their detectives and police officers SUCK!

I do have a lot more to add (like i said i’ve been following this blog so i have a lot of ideas, opinions, and conclusions i’ve reached and just not decided to voice them) but being at work I have a couple things to take care of so I will be back later. But the pictures of the evidence do tell us a bit more if we can get that added in, that may narrow down our possible paths.

“4. ANOTHER THING THAT SHOULD BE ADDED TO THE MAP – EVIDENCE!!!!! Keep in mind that I do believe that GZ followed him, and as someone who has had a couple people follow me (maybe I was just a paranoid young girl at the time afraid of being kidnapped) but you do take different paths when trying to get away or even avoid leading them to your home when you know you will be there alone). ”

Sometimes you take an alternate path just to confirm you are being followed and that you’re not just crazy/paranoid. Trayvon Martin did that and concluded prematurely that he’d “lost the guy” so he probably drew the conclusion that his first conclusion about what was occurring (instinct) was baseless. On the second round, his instinctual fear was confirmed, but too late.

“GZ had no right to induce any such fears in anyone, not only because the law forbids it, but because his own rules should have forbade such conduct as well.”

In a nutshell, this is the point. In a civil society, those who appoint themselves to “protect” a community have no right whatsoever to do so in a manner that is threatening. And this is lost I believe by the focus on other sensational story lines.

If he was on NW, he was wrong. If he was on an errand, he was still wrong. His hostility towards Trayvon that night had no basis or foundation. His intent to harm and/or intimidate and infringe is clear throughout his 911 call and finally with his refusal to deescalate the situation by being forthcoming with a teenager that he had trailed and scared for several minutes. I don’t know about anyone else but I’ve trained my child to be wary of threats like Zimmerman presented that night. To not understand how hostile and threatening Zimmerman was that not, is to be in willful denial in my opinion.

Imagine if he exhibited the same behavior towards a teen aged girl. No one! NO ONE would question her correct assessment that she should fear the person following her. Especially given the person following her was seen in a car! Are you serious?

And at nighttime, Trayvon in unfamiliar area (layout and neighbors prolly unfamiliar to him), being followed by person in a car, tell me grave danger wouldn’t go through anyone’s head. And I think especially since I’m pretty sure, Zimmerman sat and watched Trayvon as he took cover from the rain under the awning. And if Trayvon noticed him at night in the heavy downpour, he was intrusive enough IMO. I’m rambling but it really incenses me that people want to discount Trayvon’s perceptions that night under those circumstances and pretend he should have just cozied up with a “creepy guy” who was relentless in pursuing him from car and foot!

Zimmerman thought he was The Retreat’s private police force. He crossed the line and whatever the outcome of this case, folks had better start looking long and hard at issues. He was wrong and so fixed that nothing that night would dissuade him from paraphrasing not letting this asshole get away. A picture of Trayvon post-mortem with a tear running down his face, suggests what? He was in mortal fear of his life and was crying why he died. Now no one but the confessed killer and the first witness suggest that Trayvon was the aggressor. We’ve know for some time that the SPD tampered with witnesses that did not support their rush to judgement that night.

Let’s say Trayvon did have the upper hand at one point. That one tear is proof to me that he lost that upper hand before he died. I don’t think he ever had the upper hand as wrestling to me connotes no one being dominant.

Go right ahead an unload. I’ve known for a long time that LEA’s like the FBI and sometimes even the local police, have people assigned to watch blogs and other net sites “of interest”, certainly prosecutors offices do, and we all know that political outfits of every stripe, monitor the blogisphere for ideas, clues and other errata. So, it can’t hurt to remind them all that there is an emotional/human side to all this. After all, these are the people they’re supposed to be keeping safe. If they want to keep their jobs, they’d better get a better handle on the “subversives” within their own ranks, who are ruining their credibility.

The National Sheriff’s Association, already knew that Neighborhood Watch was a potent source of potential danger to the very communities they intended to serve. Yet, they failed to recognize that they needed to emphasize one more rule: If and when spotted to be “interested in a subject/suspect”, the NW’er should then immediately be required to identify themselves, and that failure to do so, will make everything else that follows a criminal act by the NW’er(s).

“Imagine if he exhibited the same behavior towards a teen aged girl. No one! NO ONE would question her correct assessment that she should fear the person following her. Especially given the person following her was seen in a car! Are you serious?”

I remember a program where a police dept. used extremely young looking police officers disguised as kids to ferret out criminals. It occurred to me that had this been one of those cases, we’d be witnessing something very much different than what we’re seeing now. eh?

i’m not sure if anyone caught the fact that the pictures of his bloody head (i believe at the police station) the blood is running at an angle and not straight down. Some of which is running from the back of his head towards his face. That picture alone would indicate that zimmerman WAS on top since in order to get the blood in that angle you would have to be looking down! That’s one of the first things i noticed when I saw the pictures of the wounds on his head, well besides the fact that they weren’t gaping life threatening wounds.

Notice bandage on back of his head…but nothing covering the nose as the dad mentioned he was wearing some sort of mask? Wonder who his buddy is that’s lagging behind…they may want to find out what GZ said to him about that night. Looking forward to seeing additional evidence. I think those emails and texts will be very telling!

Wow! I had been avoiding that link because I’d seen another article about Zimmerman riding with the police. I had no idea there was a video on that page showing Zimmerman’s butterfly bandage 3 days after the murder as he walked freely through the police station. Wonder why he was there. Maybe another recorded statement? Maybe the next set of document dumps from the State will give us the recorded statement of 2/29/12, the date of the video. The “information flyers” were distributed within the community on 2/29/12 according to the current evidence dump.

I would guess he was going in for questioning. He didn’t seem phased at all. Now, neighbors said he had a bandage on his nose 2/27. Two days after that, no bandage on the nose? Why, when it would be easy to re-injure a broken nose? Further, why did he disregard the family docs order to see an ENT specialist? Wouldn’t you want to make sure your “likely closed nose fracture” was setting properly and not risk possible disfigurement square in the center of your face?

My theory – Zimmerman knows a broken nose can be feigned without bandages, so why bother? Secondly, I believe the bandages on the back of his head are there to cover up just how minor the damage was three days later. His own family doctor only prescribed soap and water and no stitches. I hope the SPD had the wherewithal to take a look under the bandages and possibly snap a few pics.

Finally, he bounded up those steps, like there was no problem. Signs of a life or death struggle three days ago – NON-EXISTENT other than the bandage. Where are the black eyes?

Speaking of walking freely through the police station, how do police collect evidence from the apprehended person? I had been meaning to ask why was Zimmerman’s underwear not listed in evidence? It could be that he didn’t wear any, but I wonder if he was allowed to change without an officer present the same room and kept them on either hiding evidence or simply taking it home with him undiscovered.

If he was merely escorted to a bathroom or something and the escorting officer was outside the door, that also gave Zimmerman an opportunity to get rid of something — maybe whatever he was searching for on the ground right after the murder.

Not necessarily true, the topic of the meeting being how terrible the police were being, Mr Hero would have to have some “inside info”.

I am sure some sloppy and lazy police exist. I can see them initiating a recruit into the secret hiding locations, but less likely they’d boast of them to a ride-along. The long-gun statement I’d believe, every sensible person tries to avoid additional paperwork.

This meeting was just after the case where he “handed out” flyers The beaten-up man’s lawyer says in this article ““They wanted to use Sherman to get Justin. Nobody really cared about Sherman. They cared about a little rich boy getting everything he wants..” (rich boy being the son of an officer).

This incident is what led to the resignation of the then police chief, opening the way for the promotion of Lee who was chief at the time of the TM shooting.

………….

We all know people like this. No matter what comes up, they are experts because of some job, family connection or the same thing happened to them, NOT PREVIOUSLY REVEALED. Bring up something else, they’ve worked in that, too. A third thing, they’re experts on because their Dad did it etc .

In other words, they believe personal experience is more accurate than any amount of expert knowledge, and will CLAIM personal experience (unprovable) to be “right”.

This attitude probably contributes to his feeling that he’ll be judged on what he says, rather than on external evidence. “External” to some extent doesn’t exist for him.

I’m laughing at work because you have described that type to a “T”. He is an opportunist, know-it-all that thought he knew more about everything than everyone else. The boy who cried Wolf essentially.

I would bet that his beef wasn’t even with Collison but with the fact that the SPD had not hired him as a cop. There is always something weird about tagger-ons and most trained LEO know to be wary of those who want to do their jobs and take the law in their own hands.

Short version of Zimm’s comments – Nothing happened like on “Cops” when I went on ride-along!!! Almost like a kid.

But his involvement with the NW program restored his faith in the SPD as per his emails. Probably because they enabled his nosy-body quasi-police state at The Retreats.

he seems to think he is pretty important. Could this new faith in the SPD be because he was in a position to be sort of calling the shots. He does the ground work then calls in his backup so to speak, he probably felt very important having the cops come running every time he picked up the phone, almost like they were working for him or something. Of course this is all speculation but he is a strange character and judging his demeanor and tone of voice, and attempts to contact the prosecutor, his vocalising his grievences about the police, ride alongs, history of bullying and assault etc i take him to be an entitled self important snot faced prat who thinks he is above the rest of us

He could care less. He did feature graffiti painted on the Ohio State black cultural center on his website. That graffiti said “Long live Zimmerman.” But goodness forbid you say he has some real questionable issues around race. How does someone take racist graffiti targeting the small AA community at Ohio State, post it on their website, but then scream…but I’m not a racist.

I just want to say thank you, NLME so much for this blog!!! This incident was so tragic and it has affected me deeply. Just knowing that other people care about this and justice, restores my faith in community.

If this is true, wouldn’t it make more sense that it was said BEFORE the shot, not afterwards?

@ NLME – nice new map showing Zimmerman’s alternate path. It’s definitely better than the one I sent. My map was only showing the entry points/route that George Zimmerman could have taken w/o details of calls. I think Trayvon Martin used the back pathway to escape the stalker in the car, but George Zimmerman knew where it would lead — the back entrance, so he followed along Twin Trees (or Retreat View). In any event, your new map made me revisit some of the old news reports again. Here’s a piece from April 19, but a reread takes on new meaning now that we have more details.

“As has been reported, Zimmerman told police officials that he lost sight of Martin and went around a townhouse to see where he was. Then he claimed Martin confronted him and punched him, knocking him down.”

Yours is better and indicates all the timing info. Mine was just a plain ole map indicating the cut-through points if Zimmerman had walked straight down Twin Trees (could have just as easily been Retreat View Circle). I only sent it because its often difficult to describe in words what a picture can do so easily.

We’ve all managed to figure out what each other has been saying now, so no worries. Totally understand. Blogging is a whole lotta, lotta work!

Keep it up. I can’t stress enough how I found your blog a godsend of good info!

“As has been reported, Zimmerman told police officials that he lost sight of Martin and went around a townhouse to see where he was. Then he claimed Martin confronted him and punched him, knocking him down.”

This comment aligns well with Toneii’s scenario. GZ just omits he was the one who initiated the confrontation. Partial truths.

I didn’t mind ignoring Zimmerman’s back entrance comment – he was an idiot the entire call – but the more I thought about Brandy Green saying Trayvon was just sitting on her porch and then he was chased/killed up the path by someone, the more I wondered how she could think/say this.

I originally thought maybe Trayvon dropped his hoodie or something else off at home (?) and went back up the path to see if Zimmerman was still stalking him. I suspected when Zimmerman continued down the path instead of returning to his vehicle, the confrontation ensued and the deadly shot was fired.

But, the evidence dump came and Trayvon was indeed wearing his hoodie at the time of the shooting while most of his items – there’s no mention of the pin? – were found near the shooting scene.

Once “John” started coming clean by saying two voices were coming up the path towards him (and Trayvon wasn’t doing MMA moves on Zimmerman), I really started wondering how a chase heading north towards his house/the shooting scene could have happened.

It took aussie saying “NOT (all caps) the inside path” for my mind to start racing this morning.

Again, my bad if this map and chase route has been previously suggested. It sounds like they have. And, I do remember saying in the past that Zimmerman’s back gate description didn’t mean much since he was so inconsistent/worked up during the entire call.

Well, that back entrance observation will likely cost him 20.5+ years behind bars (even though he blew his Stand Your Ground and/or self defense case in the original “final” map as well).

Actually the button is mentioned as being collected from Martin’s pockets on p. 58:
“One (1) red “711” brand name lighter, photo button, bag of skittles, and headphones. and collected from with in the victim’s pockets.”

Why would the can of iced tea be in the front pocket of his hoodie (removed during CPR), and the skittles be in his pocket, when he had been given them in a plastic bag @ 7-11?

I think it was a plastic bag… if paper in the rain, maybe it makes more sense. Or maybe he was using the plastic bag to protect his cell phone from the rain?

Button is weird… not sure if there is an interesting explanation for the button, or if it was misclassification.

But I’m going to focus on the bag for a moment. It looks like a small plastic bag, maybe broken, is at marker #2 in photo #15.

At photo # 68, you can see the position relative to the back porches. Can anyone tell how far down the path this is from the bench or other items?

If marker #2 is the 7-11 bag (it looks like it based on the 7-11 video), how did it break (during the initial scuffle?), then was there a pause in their altercation (maybe it seemed to end for a bit?) for Trayvon to put the contents of the broken bag into his pockets?

In any case, if the bag of 7-11 items were with him up near the ‘T’, I’m less certain Martin actually stopped on his back porch. Seems he would have left the bag there if he stopped off there, then felt he had to get away from Zimmerman.

I think your map is correct that Martin went down Twin Trees, but then I think he may have turned into the cut through between the houses just before the last set of town houses — the quickest route back home.

But then he had to decide whether to go to his porch, or hide, or turn back up the center lane to go away from his house with only had Chad there.

I think Martin almost made it to his porch, but didn’t actually pass or stop there.

Could be that TM always does something, that she has to later undo, like moving a chair or something on the porch, maybe that’s where he kept the key? If so, then he had to reach the back porch if he later had the key on him.
So she could be addressing some detail like that.

If he did get to the back porch, then the question is, why did he go back down away from the house? If GZ showed up there, he wouldn’t have time to put the key in the lock, he’d be scared witless and would run.

Remember, GZ says that he lied to TM about following him, way back by the gate, when TM walked past him in his car.

At first glance, since the sign at the gate says “neighborhood watch program”, you would think, if being followed, that perhaps this was NW. It could also be an undercover policeman, I’m sure TM is aware of that possibility. So, he goes over and GZ rolls the window down. TM asks “why are you following me?” Now, if it was undercover, you’d expect the answer to be “police”. If it’s NW, you’d expect them to say so as well. But, if it’s some ill intended, potentially dangerous person, you’d expect them to either give no answer or lie!

TM got a lie, so that excludes undercover police, and it excludes NW, so what’s left? GZ purposely incited TM’s fear levels to rise extraordinarily! So, TM decides not to let on that he’s fearful, he acts nonchalant as long as his racing mind will let him, then he runs!

Where does he run? Does he run all the way home? Get met by, or see some stranger lurking about and turn back? Does he get on the porch and retrieve the house key, then hear or see someone coming or nearby and get scared away? These are things that I’m looking for answers to.

Perhaps, if we list all the activities witnessed in order, we might see that some witnesses are seeing the same thing, but from a different angle. Then we can look at the time gaps and try to figure out what could have been accomplished in those gaps, from the last known positions of the actors.

I think somewhere they say that he had the skittles in his pocket and the iced tea in the bag. Then later he put the iced tea in his hoodie pocket. You can do that if the pocket is large enough, but usually the can has a precarious perch there, likely to fall out if you get vigorous, like running, falling or wrestling.
But in the end, the report says it was in his hoodie pocket. I don’t yet know what to make of it.

If the button was in his pocket, maybe Zimmerman pulled/knocked it off Martin’s sweatshirt during their initial pushing/altercation. TM hits him in the nose with the bag/iced tea can. There is yelling at each other during all of this. Zimmerman is dazed momentarily, and TM figures it’s over, putting everything back in his pockets (iced tea can, skittles, and button).

But it wasn’t over. Zimmerman is mad about the hit,and goes to take down TM. TM flips him and tries to pin Zimmerman down. Zimmerman now has taken a hit to the nose, and is being mostly pinned in this wrestling match. And he’s getting madder.

Maybe that’s how the fighting starts and escalates, and leads into the cries for help and the moment “John” sees them.

NLME said:
“There’s something that caused Brandy Green to say he was just sitting on the back porch and then someone shot him up by the T.”

I could be wrong of course… but are there any witnesses on the list that are unaccounted for? That would have seen him there? They would definitely want a witness of that, and I would have thought the family would have let that be definitively known early on, because it would be one of the biggest blows to Zimmerman’s case.

I thought he might have ditched that on the earlier walk, so he could put his hands in his pockets and out of the rain. There was a plastic shopping bag brought by an Asian male resident, when ambulance asked for some plastic wrap. I thought that might be the one in the evidence.

BUT WOW it makes so much more sense that he TOOK A SWING with it.

So okay now it goes like this…

a) at or near porch: “Why are you following me”…. bit of “discussion”
b) TM walks away (north), GZ follows, says something threatening and/or makes a grab.
c) TM swings around and takes a swing with the BAG.
d) GZ gets hit on nose (no injury on TMs hands, right?) slips over backwards in damp grass
e) TM picks up his shopping which fell from the bag… after all he’s suffered for that snack there’s no way he’s leaving it behind….decides to go north and back around to the FRONT of the house
f) GZ gets up MAD and chases again, may or may not grab again, but exposes or reaches for the gun
g) TM sees the gun, starts to fight for his life (but he’s pocketed his only weapon, the tea-in-bag cosh) and starts screaming HELP
h) GZ gets control of the gun, TM starts pleading, help, don’t, please……

I didn’t find anything remarkable with the bag at first glance – I was on my phone – but, I’ll bite and take another look. The odds of my plastic shopping bag making it home from a local convenience store without being roughed up a little bit – especially if I stuff it in my pockets so that my hands are free to mess around on my phone – are slim.

The plastic bag is south of the T near the shooting scene. I don’t see anything abnormal other than a weathered bag. Crime scene pic #68 shows its location with a marker that night and #77 shows the location without a marker during the day.

Ok, Ok, see this is getting good! With our collective ‘logical’ thinking we’ll get this case solved before it goes to court! Lol! Few posts back I bought up the fact that the can of tea was in his pocket but had only come out during CPR, and that the tan bag that he was given at 7-11 was included in evidence dump. After I reviewed full screen of 7-11 video it was shown that he placed the candy in his hoodie pocket…but tea was in the bag.

Someone else responded that the bag found at scene could very well have been one that the neighbor brought out when the officer requested one to cover the wound, and someone else offered that perhaps Trayvon ditched bag on his walk back and then placed the tea in his pocket. My gut feeling is that didn’t happen, and he still had the tea with him in the bag. Inv. Serino states in his report that when he ‘inquired’ about the tea laying on the ground, he was told it came out during CPR.

How/when did the button end up in his pocket? Remember, GZ tells dispatch that he’s wearing one and it’s clearly visible in 7-11 video. Did it come off during initial scuffle Sproutlette has described, and he placed it in his pocket after picking them up?

Yeah – I don’t get why the button wasn’t still attached to the hoodie. I’m not sure if this is significant at all and the pin definitely could have come off during any scuffle that Zimmerman and Martin had that night but…

After apparently falling from the hoodie, why wasn’t its location submitted as evidence?

All of the evidence had been tampered with by GZ. It goes back to what a previous poster said from the two female roommates statement.

Jim Says:

May 21, 2012 at 6:55 am
I believe when Mary Cutcher and her roommate Selma Mora Lamilla first got outside and saw GZ, what they saw was GZ frisking TM,disparately looking for a gun, a knife, any kind of weapon he could say TM threatened him with.

Maybe TM adjusted the tea in his pocket and GZ thought he was armed so he pulled his gun, leading to altercation, and the screams for help before the shot(s – I’m adding an s because i hear 2)… Maybe he thought TM had stolen something and emptied his pockets to find the stolen goods and only found the skittles, thought something significant was in the bag and after realizing it was nothing, placed the tea in back in his pocket and tossed the bag in a rush to search for something more meaningful. In frisking him he could have popped the button right off and stuffed it in his pocket thinking nobody would ever know the difference. He very well could have been searching for the weapon that in his mind the “suspected criminal” should have had on him and that’s why Mary and Selma saw that scene, and why the bag was out of his pocket and the button was inside his pocket.

I honestly don’t think Brandy meant anything by that comment. How could she have known that Trayvon was on his back porch? Wouldn’t DeeDee have said Tray was on the back porch? How would GZ know that Trayvon was on his way back home and on the back porch?

Because Zimmerman could see Trayvon – assuming the streets were somewhat lit – head south and then east on Twin Trees towards the back entrance.

As he followed Trayvon’s path, Zimmerman spotted the unarmed teenager on his own back porch and the rest – a confrontation, chase, wrestling match, and then fatal shot – is history.

I’m pretty sure Brandy wouldn’t have mistakingly said Trayvon was on the back porch before he was chased up the corridor and then shot by someone. The next evidence dump – if the remaining stuff even gets released to the media/public – could be further damning to Zimmerman’s case.

Could be something he always does when he leaves and again when he comes back. Like for example a key to the back door. He’s been admonished to be sure not to carry it with him, because his father or Brandy or family may need it.

So, he’d go out the door, get the key and lock it, put the key back.
Go to the store, come back, get the key, open the door then put
the key back and go inside.

So, if the key is with him when he’s found dead, then he made it to the back porch. Something like that, that she would know but we wouldn’t.

A long time ago I had a few friends who had keys to my place. I could tell which one of them had been there, by what had been done. ex: Orange juice low it was Bill, Tea pot warm it was Gina, tv on it was John. Everyone brings their habits with them wherever they go.