First question: Are you using a Mac? That might be it. They have problems surfing the 'web. They crash when viewing many popular websites.

That's simply nonsense and no more an issue on the mac os than on windows - poorly executed script and code will kill a browser dead. I have no more issues when browsing on mac then when on windows and the sites which cause issues cause issues on both platforms.

I wuz just watching some Hulu on my older non glossy MacBook pro with firewire and an express card slot so I can get an air card from another provider besides At@T. Ah, freedom.

But I will admit the bottom of the computer did get a might bit toasty.

Cool - you obviously weren't outside then, cause the tiniest bit of sunlight and the screen becomes a complete white-out. And when was the last time you bought a device with a firewire 400 connections which didn't also offer USB-2 or firewire 800?

And what exactly do you slide into that express card slot, can only speak from UK experience, but every wireless provider in the UK offers their services via a USB dongle...

People just simply do not get it do they??? The article quoted "fastest growing" and "most popular" smart phone while at the same time showing that Adobe says Flash is "critical to the web". LOL! OBVIOUSLY NOT! Seriously... The numbers don't lie people.

AFAIK, the fastest growing is Android, and the most popular is Nokia. iOS no longer is the former, and never was the latter.

That's simply nonsense and no more an issue on the mac os than on windows - poorly executed script and code will kill a browser dead. I have no more issues when browsing on mac then when on windows and the sites which cause issues cause issues on both platforms.

Yes, mainly mac owners who don't spend an even amount of time on windows and mac os - they both have their strengths, but to say the mac is a bad platform for viewing the internet is complete toss, sorry.

When viewing a web page, your machine is subjected to the code provided by the web developer - and there is some very ropey script running around free on the net - the issue is not one of platform, it is one of the quality of the code presented - which is often the case with inexperienced flash developers throwing together slow running, memory leaking crap and uploading it. Most of the flash issue is about amateurs with pirate copies of flash producing crap and grinding sites to a halt.

AFAIK, the fastest growing is Android, and the most popular is Nokia. iOS no longer is the former, and never was the latter.

Don't confuse sales figures with popularity. The iPhone is the best known, most famous single model of cell phone on the planet. It's gone from zero market share to 14% in two years - that is an incredible achievement.

People just simply do not get it do they??? The article quoted "fastest growing" and "most popular" smart phone while at the same time showing that Adobe says Flash is "critical to the web". LOL! OBVIOUSLY NOT! Seriously... The numbers don't lie people. If it were absolutely essential and demanded SO much then we would have it. But of course we don't and people still keep on raising the sales figures. Flash is not a "standard" by any means... it's f*cking proprietary plain and simple! And most definitely NOT needed... Adobe has secured that for sure with their bloated tendencies. Nice to have in some cases (more for others), but not a necessity and thus proving (in more ways than one) it is not a standard.

You can argue that point until you're blue in the face but it won't change the facts (or the numbers).

Great first post.

Dick Applebaum on whether the iPad is a personal computer: "BTW, I am posting this from my iPad pc while sitting on the throne... personal enough for you?"

Don't confuse sales figures with popularity. The iPhone is the best known, most famous single model of cell phone on the planet. It's gone from zero market share to 14% in two years - that is an incredible achievement.

That's simply nonsense and no more an issue on the mac os than on windows - poorly executed script and code will kill a browser dead. I have no more issues when browsing on mac then when on windows and the sites which cause issues cause issues on both platforms.

Agreed. Can anyone post a couple of links to reputable sites that use flash that will crash (not just use more resources, but actually crash) my browser? I know of the site created to highlight the flaw in the current version of Flash that supposedly crashes the browser but it did not for me and is a proof of concept site anyway, not one that users would visit on a day-to-day basis.
I went to one site listed here as crashing both Safari and FF, http://www.christianmingle.com/ and signed up quickly for an account and clicked through 15 - 20 photos and no crashes. No matches either!

Agreed. Can anyone post a couple of links to reputable sites that use flash that will crash (not just use more resources, but actually crash) my browser? I know of the site created to highlight the flaw in the current version of Flash that supposedly crashes the browser but it did not for me and is a proof of concept site anyway, not one that users would visit on a day-to-day basis.

Do you see any implications of that for a touch-only device marketed as the best way to surf the 'web?

Not really, just create (web)applications without a cursor in mind.
I see lots of new challenges for interactive content, whether that is in the form of applications or web based, especially for the bigger screen devices with more screen real estate.

I just hope that adobe & apple will make sure that they won't let the old/current flash content come to these devices, it will just be a horrible enduser experience.

I have no idea. The general discussion here has been about Flash performance on Macs. If there is anyone here who could respond to my previous post about creating interactive content not using flash, I would love to hear it (esp. if you are in the business of creating such content) and if anyone has links (preferably that they have tested on a Mac) of reputable sites that crashes Safari or FF I would like to see those too.

I have no idea. The general discussion here has been about Flash performance on Macs. If there is anyone here who could respond to my previous post about creating interactive content not using flash, I would love to hear it (esp. if you are in the business of creating such content) and if anyone has links (preferably that they have tested on a Mac) of reputable sites that crashes Safari or FF I would like to see those too.

Just do a search on internet, i am sure you will found dozens of sites and links providing you information you require.

Just do a search on internet, i am sure you will found dozens of sites and links providing you information you require.

Sorry my bad, I should have been a little more precise. If there is anyone, other than souliisoul, who is interested in having a meaning conversation about alternatives to Flash (per my earlier post) and has some actual experience creating interactive content, not just google'ing the term, I would love to hear it.

And why not? If Steve Jobs wants to force people to go beyond Adobe Flash, he should force real Mac users to stop using Flash altogether by banning Flash from MacOS X 10.5.x and 10.6.x versions. Let's see how fast that hurts Mac sales until the rest of the Internet evolves to HTML 5.0 4-5 years from now.

After all, Jobs once said a mouse pointer didn't need more than one click button; the current Magic Mouse and the previous Mighty Mouse has incorporated two-button mouse functionality--something Apples have done when MacOS X 10.0 came out over a decade ago.

As for the lack of Flash with the iPhone, remember the iPhone has fairly limited computing power--especially considering there's no user pre-emptive multitasking on iPhone OS 1.0 to 3.2. Besides, given the relatively low computing power, Flash doesn't make much sense.

But now that CPU's based on the ARM architecture have gotten a LOT faster lately, Flash has become viable even on the iPhone. With the rumored iPhone OS 4.0 likely coming this summer, which may include user pre-emptive multitasking for the first time, Flash 10.1 should actually work quite well on the iPad once that device goes to iPhone OS 4.0.

Remember, this is not like in 1998 when the original iMac lacked parallel and serial ports in favor of USB ports and lacked a floppy drive in favor of a CD-ROM drive. In 1998, Windows-based PC's were already starting to sport CD-ROM drives, and USB ports were also starting to appear on PC's, too (in 1998 ATX-form factor motherboards already had at least two USB 1.1 connectors).

And why not? If Steve Jobs wants to force people to go beyond Adobe Flash, he should force real Mac users to stop using Flash altogether by banning Flash from MacOS X 10.5.x and 10.6.x versions. Let's see how fast that hurts Mac sales until the rest of the Internet evolves to HTML 5.0 4-5 years from now.

You write that yet you honestly can't see that Apple sees Flash as viable on the desktop (where all Macs come with Flash preinstalled) but not on mobiles where it's still not designed to run. Where no mobile OS is shipping with Flash in going into the end of February 2010, yet this is Apple's fault back in January 2007. Seriously?

Dick Applebaum on whether the iPad is a personal computer: "BTW, I am posting this from my iPad pc while sitting on the throne... personal enough for you?"

You write that yet you honestly can't see that Apple sees Flash as viable on the desktop (where all Macs come with Flash preinstalled) but not on mobiles where it's still not designed to run. Where no mobile OS is shipping with Flash in going into the end of February 2010, yet this is Apple's fault back in January 2007. Seriously?

I am absolutely serious. Jobs dislikes Flash because 1) he's right that current versions of Flash use too much CPU cycles under MacOS X 10.5.x/10.6.x and 2) Apple--along with Google--has a MAJOR vested interest (both financial and technological) in making HTML 5.0 succeed. As such, if Jobs really wants to get everyone off Adobe Flash, what better way than essentially making Mac Mini, iMac, Mac Pro, MacBook and MacBook Pro users use only HTML 5.0 technologies? Such a move will make WAY more of a statement that the web site designers and managers should evolve to HTML 5.0 technologies.

You are running beta code and moaning about the performance of it? Maybe you should go back to the product version, those sites, while they increased the processor levels, did not make my 2.16GHz iMac go into "cardiac arrest"

And why not? If Steve Jobs wants to force people to go beyond Adobe Flash, he should force real Mac users to stop using Flash altogether by banning Flash from MacOS X 10.5.x and 10.6.x versions. Let's see how fast that hurts Mac sales until the rest of the Internet evolves to HTML 5.0 4-5 years from now.

Come on, seriously? So Jobs would spend a bunch of engineering hours to prevent a specific plug-in from being loaded on all browser on the Mac? It's not like the iPod or iPhone where Apple controls what software get onto the device. Maybe he could just disable Flash on Safari and see how popular that would turn out. And there is always Parallels where we can still run Windows.

Jobs is the largest on the board of Disney and their website has a bunch of Flash videos. So does Disney owned ESPN and ABC. Without being a Flash lover or hater, there is just a lot of Flash video out there.

I am absolutely serious. Jobs dislikes Flash because 1) he's right that current versions of Flash use too much CPU cycles under MacOS X 10.5.x/10.6.x and 2) Apple--along with Google--has a MAJOR vested interest (both financial and technological) in making HTML 5.0 succeed. As such, if Jobs really wants to get everyone off Adobe Flash, what better way than essentially making Mac Mini, iMac, Mac Pro, MacBook and MacBook Pro users use only HTML 5.0 technologies? Such a move will make WAY more of a statement that the web site designers and managers should evolve to HTML 5.0 technologies.

I see what you're saying, but that isn't a message to send. Macs can handle Flash, albeit much more poorly than HTML5 video tag for the same function. Flash wasn't designed for mobiles and Adobe dropped on the ball on development so it makes absolute sense not to include it there, but that doesn't mean Flash can't run on the desktop and doesn't have uses on the desktop. Let's not forget that the way Flash interacts with the user is by and large designed for a mouse and keyboard, not a finger-based touchscreen which makes most of the Flash world inaccessible for even Windows tablets.

Like many on this forum, I have Flash installed with ClickToFlash installed to control it. Not installing Flash on Macs would mean another thing to install on a new Mac. I listened to BBC Radio 1 all morning with Flash. It was taking 100%/200% across two-core for several hours for 48Kbps HE-AAC audio but that is that. If I were using just the battery Id get 1hr:37min out of a brand new 4400mAh battery. Not good!

edit: I just found an unofficial Dashboard Wdiget for BBC Radio. Reduced my load to 5%. Awesome!

I am absolutely serious. Jobs dislikes Flash because 1) he's right that current versions of Flash use too much CPU cycles under MacOS X 10.5.x/10.6.x and 2) Apple--along with Google--has a MAJOR vested interest (both financial and technological) in making HTML 5.0 succeed. As such, if Jobs really wants to get everyone off Adobe Flash, what better way than essentially making Mac Mini, iMac, Mac Pro, MacBook and MacBook Pro users use only HTML 5.0 technologies? Such a move will make WAY more of a statement that the web site designers and managers should evolve to HTML 5.0 technologies.

He doesn't dislike it as much as you think. His beloved Disney owned websites (Disney, ABC, ESPN) has lots of Flash video. It is just a rally cry to get people to buy from his iTunes store.

You are running beta code and moaning about the performance of it? Maybe you should go back to the product version, those sites, while they increased the processor levels, did not make my 2.16GHz iMac go into "cardiac arrest"

I remember not to long ago computers were running with single core CPUs at 800Mhz or something, and 512MB of ram. In fact, my parents still have one: a 2002 iMac. They could surf the web just fine, back then, but today it's often a struggle. No YouTube, that's for sure. And not because the computer has any hardware issues either. I find it amusing how something as simple as viewing a document or video on the web nowadays practically requires dual core 2.16Ghz and 2Gb of ram. We sure are using that extra computing power efficiently, aren't we?? And what of the increased energy required to run a 2.16Ghz processor? Battery life = s**t compared to the possibilities with 800Mhz.

Personally, I think most flash pages look like s**t, artistically, with an equal value in functionality.

HTML 5 is open source, you can write the tags in a text editor if you want, it will run in any browser, even IE with the Google Frame plug in.

Firefox and Opera take it even further by using open source codecs for video and sound rather than the proprietary (and free to use) H.264 and MP3 codecs.

Quote:

Originally Posted by SactoMan01

I am absolutely serious. Jobs dislikes Flash because 1) he's right that current versions of Flash use too much CPU cycles under MacOS X 10.5.x/10.6.x and 2) Apple--along with Google--has a MAJOR vested interest (both financial and technological) in making HTML 5.0 succeed. As such, if Jobs really wants to get everyone off Adobe Flash, what better way than essentially making Mac Mini, iMac, Mac Pro, MacBook and MacBook Pro users use only HTML 5.0 technologies? Such a move will make WAY more of a statement that the web site designers and managers should evolve to HTML 5.0 technologies.

Better than my Bose, better than my Skullcandy's, listening to Mozart through my LeBron James limited edition PowerBeats by Dre is almost as good as my Sennheisers.

Being even more daring and announce that MacOS X 10.5.x and 10.6.x will no longer support Flash. If there is ANYTHING that will get Adobe's attention, dropping Flash support in MacOS X will finally show we can go beyond Flash on a desktop/laptop operating system using the supposedly open HTML 5.0.

That's going to be the next shot in the flash/html5 conflict. Not disable flash completely but build in ClickToFlash as a Safari option and default it to on. It's a dramatic improvement in the browsing experience with no loss of functionality.

Firefox and IE8 may add it by default as well. That's already a very popular Firefox add-on so it's not a big stretch to imagine it part of the stock installation. And Microsoft wants to push Silverlight.

The use of flash is driven by advertising dollars. Already virtually all the mobile ad space can't use flash. Safari with ClickToFlash knocks off another 10% of the ad market for flash, Firefox another 30%. If my ads can't be seen by most mobile users and 40+% of the desktop users, ad designers will switch to something else very quickly. Once the ad designers are gone, flash becomes just a specialty plugin for certain kinds of interactive web sites.

That's going to be the next shot in the flash/html5 conflict. Not disable flash completely but build in ClickToFlash as a Safari option and default it to on. It's a dramatic improvement in the browsing experience with no loss of functionality.

Firefox and IE8 may add it by default as well. That's already a very popular Firefox add-on so it's not a big stretch to imagine it part of the stock installation. And Microsoft wants to push Silverlight.

The use of flash is driven by advertising dollars. Already virtually all the mobile ad space can't use flash. Safari with ClickToFlash knocks off another 10% of the ad market for flash, Firefox another 30%. If my ads can't be seen by most mobile users and 40+% of the desktop users, ad designers will switch to something else very quickly. Once the ad designers are gone, flash becomes just a specialty plugin for certain kinds of interactive web sites.

Interesting points and welcome to the forum. I agree that ads will have to switch from being Flash to webcode, but I have my doubts about ClickToFlash or its equivalent will be added to Safari, though I hope you are correct. Would there not be any anti-trust ramifications if Apple, Google, MS and Mozilla started offering that as part of the browser?

Dick Applebaum on whether the iPad is a personal computer: "BTW, I am posting this from my iPad pc while sitting on the throne... personal enough for you?"