A place for Catholics who don't find their Catholic identity in the standard definitions.
"He drew a circle that shut me out.
Heretic, rebel, a thing to flout.
But Love and I had the wit to win:
We drew a circle that took him in."
Edwin Markham

Saturday, July 24, 2010

The Trident Ballistic Missle Submarine was front and center in another Vatican attempt to quash progressive Catholic dissent against US military policy. Doctrinal orthodoxy was also the excuse under which this battle began. It didn't end there though.

The following statement according to Maryknoll priest, Fr Joe Veneroso, is the Maryknoll General Council's official position on the matter of withdrawing funding from SOA:

On May 24, 2010 Father Edward Dougherty, Superior General of the Maryknoll Society, met with Father Roy Bourgeois to discuss the Society's decision to discontinue financial support to the School of Americas (SOA) Watch.

Given Father Bourgeois central role as founder and public face of the SOA Watch, Society leadership has determined that it cannot continue its financial support of that organization without giving the impression that it also supports the actions of its leader concerning the issue of women's ordinations. (Those actions led to his automatic excommunication [Latae sententiae] by the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith in 2008.)

This decision is not intended to be punitive and is not designed to put pressure on Father Bourgeois, or on the SOA Watch organization and its activities. Maryknoll continues its solidarity with the people of Latin America and the Caribbean, and is unambiguous in its support of the goals of the SOA Watch. (This is too funny.)*******************************************I am having a very difficult time swallowing this tripe of an official response from the Maryknoll General Council. Something stinks to high heaven about this. It's bringing back memories of John Paul II's and Cardinal Ratzinger's attempts to corral the authority and voice of Archbishop Hunthausen of Seattle during virtually the entire Reagan administration. Actually, now that I think about this conflict between Rome and Archbishop Hunthausen, the lessons in it are ripe for review and very pertinent to today's Church.

This story of the Vatican vs Hunthausen includes some of the opening strikes in most all of today's hot button issues. Not surprisingly it also includes some of today's main characters. As an example here's a quote from Joseph Ratzinger as head of the CDF, directed to Archbishop Hunthausen's handling of a particular Catholic population:"The Archdiocese should withdraw all support from any group which does not unequivocally accept the teaching of the Magisterium concerning the intrinsic evil of homosexual activity. This teaching has been set forth in this Congregation's Declaration on Sexual Ethics and more recently in the document, Educational Guidance in Human Love, issued by the Congregation for Catholic Education in 1983."

Archbishop Hunthausen was a prominent leader of the progressive wing of then NCCB. He once stated in a speech that the Trident Nuclear Submarine base outside Seattle was the Auschwitz of Puget Sound. He did not endear himself to the Reagan White house with his outspoken dissent with St Reagan's nuclear arms build up. He refused to pay the portion of his personal income tax which went to the defense budget. Needless to say he had meetings with the IRS as well as the Vatican. It was Hunthausen's opposition to Reagan's arms build up which most observers felt triggered the conflict with Rome over Hunthausen's lack of 'orthodoxy'.

The supposed trigger for Rome's investigation of Hunthausen were the complaints of a right wing conservative group, Catholics United For The Faith, whose current honorary chairman is--are you ready--Archbishop Raymond Burke. Their headquarters are in Steubenville Oh, and they have a very active chapter in Colorado Springs, Co. Shock and awe. You can probably connect some dots.

CUF objected to Hunthausen's pastoral leniency on matters of divorced and remarried Catholics, lay participation in the Sacraments, the pastoral outreach to gays, practices in Catholic hospitals surrounding sterilization, and use of laicised priests for some sacramental functions. Rome responded with a CDF led Apostolic Visitation under the then Archbishop James Hickey of DC who later became Cardinal Hickey. In 1985 the CDF responded with a letter outlining certain changes and JPII appointed Donal Wuerl as an Auxiliary Bishop with a mandate to take over some of Hunthausen's Episcopal authority.

That's when it really got fun because Hunthausen maintained Rome stepped on his independent authority as the installed head of an Archdiocese. All of a sudden this wasn't an issue of orthodoxy but an issue of episcopal authority vis a vis Rome. Needless to say this got the interest of the NCCB, who could see some ominous signs about the extent of their own authority.

The dispute was finally settled in 1989 when the Vatican restored Hunthausen's full authority and appointed a coadjutor archbishop, Thomas Murphy, who took over upon Hunthausen's retirement two years later in 1991. Archbishop Hunthausen, who recently turned 90, lives outside Helena, Mt and still fills in when needed. To the best of my knowledge he is the last living US bishop who took part in the entirety of the Second Vatican Council.The following excerpt is the final paragraph from a study published on the University of Utrecht website by Timothy Peter Schilling. The study analyzes the conflict strategies and use of power in the Hunthausen/Vatican conflict. The entire 364 page study is on line and for those with nothing to do this weekend it might make interesting reading.Schilling makes a lot of good points, one of which is that Catholicism has no real appreciation for and finds no value in conflict and because of that, doesn't know how to deal with conflict situations or take any lessons from them. In the interests of the facade of unity, conflict amongst official representatives isn't supposed to exist. To maintain the facade any strategy which minimises or hides these conflicts is preferable to the truth. Secrecy is one of the big strategies:

"One of the main points I make in my study of the case is that, while arguing for an “openChurch” – for transparency and broad participation in the leadership of the Church –Hunthausen himself remained complicit, off and on, in the restrictive practices of silence and secrecy that he himself argued against. I believe this proved to be the case because Hunthausen was so strongly socialized to do so (thus, it was to a degree a matter of unconscious habit), and because ultimately he realized that he could not say what he wanted to say and change what he wanted to change and still remain in the hierarchy.

I cannot help but feel that on some level Hunthausen knew all too well that the self-protective mechanisms of the hierarchical culture – which are fully operative when Church conflicts of interest arise – pose a danger to the credibility of the hierarchy and to the viability of the Church.

One need only look as far as the recent crisis around the issue of pedophilia to recognize the calamity that comes when bishops put the appearance of the Church and of the hierarchy ahead of the open and honest acknowledgment of real problems. My sense is that Hunthausen felt himself to be, to some extent, trapped within structures that he could not see a way to change and that he felt frustrated as a result. I do not imagine him to be alone among bishops in feeling this way.

I'm pretty sure the Maryknoll General Council feels the exact same way Archbishop Hunthausen probably did. Frustrated with the whole system but conditioned to participate in and enable it, and in their case devoid of Hunthausen's courage to defend their own mission. So good bye SOA and hello duplicitous ass kissing statement. It's just one more example of the kind of power games-some of them obviously political- which have become institutionalized in the Vatican under the past thirty years of the JPII, Cardinal Ratzinger/Benedict XVI Vatican. This is why the same names and same issues of orthodoxy are still in play twenty years later, and seem to be even more effective.

In my estimation the most depressing and potent messages sent by Rome in the Hunthausen affair were: 1) Rome's treatment of the progressive Hunthausen coupled with the promotions and career advancement of men like Hickey and Wuerl, 2) the reinforcement and pandering to groups like CUF and 3) the availibility of the Vatican to be bought by fascist or conservative governments. The treatment of Hunthausen should not be understood as separate from the treatment of Archbishop Romero.

Hope in the Hunthausen saga can be taken from the fact that Ratzinger's Vatican will blink in the face of determined, principled opposition --especially if it has public lay support. If only there was just some sitting bishop who understood this and had the guts to test this theory. There is no shortage of potential lay support for such a stand, just bishops willing to take one. Maybe someday, somewhere, some bishop will be thoroughly sick of being embarrassed by this kind of Vatican manipulation and will find his voice. One can certainly pray such a thing comes to pass.

27 comments:

Well at least the Maryknoll priests have some principles. If it was the Legionaries of Christ they'd simply put the unmarked bills in an envelope. They'd have an underling press the envelope in someone's hands...

" The expression is opera carita — 'We're making an offering for your works of charity.' That's the way it's done. In fact you don't know where the money's going." He paused. "It's an elegant way of giving a bribe."

I am also reminded of how Opus Dei works. Apparently they think they can reconcile the utilitarian "end justifies the means" principles with the gospels by putting holy in front of "intransigence, coercion and shamelessness".

Jesus, Mary and Joseph save us!

Does anyone remember Butch Cassidy and the Sundance Kid? There are no rules in a knife fight!

Your posts are mind boggling and I am flabbergasted as more and more disgusting revelations come to the surface from my church.Thankyou for the time you take to research and present this. I hope your cup does not run over with too much pain.Blessings

Phil, I actually knew Archbishop Hunthausen when he was bishop in Helena. The man is a truly pastoral priest. Most of my anger has more to do with some of the appointments that followed Hunthausen in Helena. One of those bishops now serves on the over site board of the SOA.

Lot of reasons for me to be somewhat connected to the Maryknoll story and the SOA story. What's amazed me is reading back on the Hunthausen saga and coming to grips with the fact the Vatican has single mindely engaged in a program to crush all independent episcopal authority and centralize all teaching authority in the Papacy. In Hunthausen's case the accusations from the 'thought police' began in 1978. The very year JPI died and JPII was elected.

I left a long comment on the previous thread, Colleen. After yours to me. I have another thought. If there is a non-violent resistance of people seeking communion, while wearing a ribbon distinguishing them as having taken actions which the Vatican opposes or calls "sin" (birth control, homosexual relationships, divorce, women seeking ordination, etc), I also suspect that not all communion ministers will OBEY an order to refuse communion to those wearing the ribbon. There are so many ways to non-violently resist here! And giving communion to all who come will make for another very, very powerful non-violent message!

Things, to me, seem to be coming to a head. But people need a way to demonstrate their convictions. See end of previous thread (at least as I post this now).

As I say there, I can envision lots and lots of "fallen away but caring baptized RC's" taking part too!

Hart Lyman Stebbins was inducted into Skull & Bones at Yale University in 1933.

http://www.mindfully.org/Reform/Skull-And-Bones1833-1985.htm

Stebbins was born in NYC in 1911, the son of nominal Episcopalians. His dad left the family Wall Street firm to become a Broadway theatrical producer, introducing Kitty Carlyle (Hart) to the stage. The family came from England to Mass. in 1624.Lyman's great-granfather, Henry George Stebbins, was President of the New York Stock Exchange & one of the founders of the Metropolitan Museum of Art.

After Yale he worked in a Wall St. brokerage house. His conversion to Catholicism is largely credited to C.S. Lewis (a fave of Opus Dei) & his writings. Converted, he lived in monastaries & then as a layman in the 'novitiate of the spiritual life". His spiritual directors included Dietrich Von Hildebrand of MI5 fame......

Mouse, it is tiring to keep connecting the same dots over and over and over.

I just finished reading the heart of Schillings analysis of the Hunthausen/Vatican stand off and his analysis is just amazing. I will never read another vatican document without using Schilling's system.

I also wonder what really went on in all the 'secret' meetings. It was also interesting to see that Wuerl was thoroughly despised by the Seattle priesthood and other religious groups. I doubt all that animosity was soley because of his position and authority. He was simply not trusted.

I would have been happier if Maryknoll had said something like, "In this difficult economic times, we have had to make painful cost-saving moves..." I would have found that disingenuous, but less obtuse than saying helping the SOA Watch equates to supporting Bourgeois' for women's ordination. That's a non sequitur if I ever heard one.

TheraP as to Eucharistic ministers, if sharing the Eucharist with other faiths now constitutes an excommunicable offense I wonder how many of them also would be wearing ribbons.

Kevin57 they could have done themselves a spiritual favor and just told the truth. If it involves Vatican pressure, so be it. The trouble is the Vatican has been so coercive on some of these hot button issues that even if the General Council truly did believe what they say in this communique, most of us wouldn't be inclined to believe them. Which is a real testament to the loss of credibility of any Church official.

Colleen, I likely didn't explain myself well. Picture a protest movement resulting in some protesters being excommunicated for wearing their ribbon, which would indicate they had transgressed the "party line" - in whatever way. And then... picture the protesters continuing to show up for Sunday Mass and continuing to line up for communion. Then picture the Eucharistic Ministers - some of whom might decide to, in effect, join the protest by giving communion to the "excommunicated". That's what I meant about how this could play out in many different ways. (I hope I did a better job of explaining this time.)

"If Wingle’s whereabouts was the only issue, the silence could be seen as respect for his privacy. But the say-nothing approach extends to a sex scandal that partly unfolded under Wingle’s watch — and that has parishioners and priests increasingly concerned.

Some are openly challenging the diocese’s silence, demanding an accounting from authorities suspected of shrugging off sex abuse complaints against Donald Joseph Grecco, a former priest who pleaded guilty March 23 to sexually molesting three altar boys between 1978 and 1986. He has yet to be sentenced."

It would seem that the commenters here think that 'all will continue' in the world. As if protests,wearing sashes in church, etc. are somehow meaningful. Or will accomplish anything.

They will not. Neither will hankering for female priests. Nor any other "Liberal agenda', no matter how well intentioned or justified.

The basic fact which ppl need to face up to is: Time is up. For the Vatican & the world system as we know it. This present Age is near the end. Those who cannot comprehend this need to read Scripture.

There will be no glorious liberal/Left future. That is a fairy tale. What will shortly be is a Fascist/Ultra-Right global regime, worse then any before. It will come about via the secular elements cooperating with what you know as "Opus Dei".

You need to face up to this reality & we must each get out spiritual house in order. We are speaking of that which is nearly upon us, not decades or even many years off.

If you do not pray the Rosary...START NOW! Ditto for the Via Crucis. Make little silent daily sacrifices for the conversion of sinners, known only to God. Pray for your enemies. Make amends, where possible, to any you have offended.

That will save your soul. Storing up canned food will not. Neither will wearing sashes.

Mouse, I've already declared myself as a very uncomfortable conspiracy theorist. I must say, the dots you've continually shown as connected make quite an impression on me. You just might be right.

I find that, if I think so negatively of the people around me, I just can't continue to believe. We are part of the Body of Christ on earth. If there is a deep conspiracy, a confederation of evil controlling our church, then the vast majority of the churches are full of either evil conspirators or stupid sheep. My entire faith experience calls that wrong, for me even selfish. So many times, the blind road we believers go down starts with "No one else seems to know what I know."

I must believe in the Spirit. Even lousy, selfish prayer is a cry to God, the healer who can change hearts and still storms. Those silly sheep are praying, and praying hard.

You might be right. It seems you know an awful lot, and when you draw the threads together they seem to fit. However, I don't stand idly by. I feel a tremendous pull to be a fool for Christ, to keep banging my head against that wall. There's no way I can make a difference, but I must follow where my Lord calls me. I guess parenting teaches me that, because four boys who never quite got it are showing us that they get it. My head hurts, but they get it.

Please don't take this in any way as a rejection of what you've said. Like I said, the threads seem to come together much more than I want them to. It's one of the reasons I appreciate this blog, group, and our guide Colleen. I think there's a huge sales job going on, telling us that the right wing is winning and all else will fall away as chaff. It's just not true, and you all are the proof. The right and the left will continue, and faith will always need to embrace them both (Let's face it -- it was the imposition of V II from the left, trampling the right, that created the steely eyed monster conservatives we can't even talk to today). The right wingers really need this, a faith they cannot ignore telling them not to box God into a smallness unbefitting Him. Keep praying, Mouse. I'm right there with you.

mjc What got trampled at Vatican II was the call to change our world view and our approach to God.

To take God out of the box, to find Him in connections we have with each other and the communities we build, so we would have a reference for finding connections with Him and the Communion of Saints and Angels.

The truly spiritual Natives who practice the old ceremonies understood the power in the cermonies comes from a mind set the puts the welfare of the tribe first, and makes connection with the greater reality from that mindset. They do not trample on the rights of others. They respect personal boundaries. They take responsibility for their own actions. They forgive others without feeling a need to change those others, believing those others will change when they finally understand their actions are not efficient, do not work towards their happiness. They will banish those others if their persistent behavior becomes detrimental to their community.Finally they live the great Law of Peace as it was given to them by their own spiritual connections. It is the same law Jesus taught. The same great commandment of Love. They see their version of Jesus as a medicine person of enormous connections and power.

Medicine here means ability to connect to the greater reality in which answers are found and reality is created. The place where the dream is dreamed and all dreams exist as potential. Quantum physicists like David Bohm sought these elders out because they sensed what these elders did was connect with the quantum reality in such a way that it effected and transcended the newtonian reality.

Catholicism is not totally devoid of similar 'medicine' people. We call them mystics. They were for all intents and purposes ethical anarchists or ethical antisocials who lived life very differently from their ordained bretheren. Their's was and is authentic spiritual power and their Masses and other rituals were authentically powerful expressions of community that created from the greater reality.

The official clerical hierarchy is operating from a very different paradigm, and too often connected to a very different aspect of the quantum reality. It needs to be reformed not just in it's practice, but in it's world view of how spirituality operates, of how quantum reality operates.

Jesus taught His disciples to go within to find the kingdom long before He gave Himself in a totally new ritual at the Last Supper. He could never have given us the opportunity to experience Him in the Mass if He had not gone with in Himself to see it's potential and reality. The price for this knowledge was the total sacrifice of the material expression of His far more transcendant self. He had to lose the expression of His biological reality in order to manifest the transcendant self reality. Love is the energy that made it all possible. It makes a lot of very transcendant, seemingly miraculous things possible.

Man's days are like grass. Like a flower in the field he blossoms; then the wind passes over it, and it is gone; forgotten forever is the spot where it grew!

But the Lord's love for those who revere him lasts forever and ever.

We are finite and imperfect but "nothing can separate us from the love of God". In spite of trials and every sort of suffering, we can trust in God - who will never leave us, who hears the cry of his people.

The Christ-Event pervades all: "The Mystery of Christ is at work in everything."

"If there is a deep conspiracy, a confederation of evil controlling our church, then the vast majority of the churches are full of either evil conspirators or stupid sheep."

That is basically the 'lay of the land', with pitifully few having any real mundane or spiritual cognition.

This is neither a call nor even the suggestion of elitist thought. Of thinking that one is better then the 'sheep'...or the 'evil conspirators'. On the contrary, both are in need of your prayers for conversion.

True conversion is not mere assent to a laundry list of doctrines. It is a sea change of heart & mind, as the soul is transformed. So one should pray for the conversion of the 'conspirators' (priests, bishops & certain laity). One should pray for the conversion of the sheep.

Both are, in truth, spiritually Blind & Deaf - in the sense in which Christ used those words. They neither see nor hear Truth, as neither group is capable of tuning into the correct frequency. Once the Holy Spirit begins to act in the person's soul, the Blindness & Deafness begin to be healed. The person will (gradually) be able to See & Hear clearly.

This is one of the prime reasons Our Lady has continually requested the frequent recitation of the Rosary: for the conversion of sinners. That they might See & Hear. Not as mere rote rattling off of prayers as a mindless mantra. That is NOT prayer! Prayer is asking, in conformity with the Will of God. And it is His Will that ALL have the possibility of salvation.

So it is in your hands. The Blind & Deaf will not be healed without your help, as they do not know how to pray. Or even that they should. God only helps those who WANT His help. The soul must be motivated to 'dial for help'.

Well.....while I would not express it in those terms, to a degree....'yes'. But a very 'qualified yes'.

Put it in terms of Fascist Vs Anti-Fascist. That is not perfect, but slightly more accurate.

In any legitimate model of a NWO, "religion" is key, without which such a construct is doomed to failure. Man wants to worship or believe in something. So using & manipulating this need is critical.

The Fascist model for such will obviously have the ultra-conservative/traditionalist/fundamentalist aspect & mindset at its core. The details become irrelevant; the emotional & psychological manipulative factors of the above are crucial to its success.

Obviously, not everyone would willingly go along with this. Some, if not many, would resist. Or at least try to.

This 'resistance' will not be purely of the Left. It will consist of those who are truly Catholic. Who believe in the true core of the faith, which is one & the same with what Jesus taught. Which was believed & lived by Christians until the Council of Nicea created a (Fascist) sea change. It will also include those of non-Xtian faiths plus Agnostics & Atheists. Those to whom such Fascism is untenable. Many of these latter groups will convert. Not as they are forced or coerced, but out of a genuine internal conversion (as Christ intended).

These forces will (even literally) fight against the very short lived Fascist NWO.

The greatest lie ever told was that'Communism is Anti-Catholic'. In point of fact, it was Fascism disguised in a Marxist suit. You may connect the rest of the dots....

"The 'Communism'in Russia has nothing more to do with Communism, then the 'Christianity' taught in most churches".

- Pete Seeger (a former Communist & very much a Christian in the REAL sense)

Mouse I kind of see communism as an attempt to sell fascism without God. The trouble the godless fascists ran into was that humanity carries genetics which predispose us to seek God. Not surprising godless fascism fell first. The other 'god filled' fascism is going take more time.

I think many people don't actually get what conversion means. It's not just a one time shot where you are struck by some mystical insight and have a personal relationship with Jesus. That's only getting the door open. One has to change their entire world view and live the teaching of Jesus. It means giving up notions of needing more for one's comfort than one really needs. It means giving up power in this world for the connections in a greater meta reality. It means freely taking care of each other and not out of some predetermined surplus. It means being responsible for your won actions and consequences. It means striving to love more and fear less.

It means praying 'help me be the person You need to me to be' not "I want to be" or the pope says I should be.

Indeed Anon E Mouse, we should pray for the fascist and their conversion to Christ Jesus. They are so deaf and blind that they "know not what they do." To be Christ-like is to forgive them their trespasses against us.

Regarding the NWO, it is an OWO that is reformed or conformed to the present day fears & greed for power, in the tradition of Satan who even tried to lure Jesus to evil and worldly riches and similar to a Church conformed to Roman law and Constantine and not in the tradition of Christ.

"Mouse I kind of see communism as an attempt to sell fascism without God."

A good point. Of course if that situation were intentionally engineered, it would trigger the in built desire for God you referenced. Our friends at OD were waiting in the wings with their brand of 'god filled' fascism - which has now infected the Catholic element of Eastern Europe.

BUT one cannot predicate one's understanding of Communism on what one learned in HS. Much less on EWTN.....

Talk to Poles, Russians, Ukranians, Czechs over a few drinks (as I have). Both young & older. Listen to what they tell you.....and you will never believe EWTN or HS history texts again.

The majority of ppl in those country are NOT religious. Not because of any 'Commie influence', but because of the Church & its clergy. They are sick of being lied to & manipulated. Many of them DO believe in God, though want nothing to do with organized religion. And many have become Agnostic due to the Church.

Just as in Western Europe, the only ones going to (any) church are either a handful of genuinely pious elderly.....and the Fanatics of (insert name of group of your choice). OD, LC, Communion & Liberation, et. al.

Mouse, this is where I agree with you most. The love of Jesus, the search and service of truth, and scientific learning must all dovetail. It's the true Holy Grail, the oneness of all that is good and Holy. The present bastardization of Christ's Word is being sold as some kind of culmination, when in fact so much of God is ignored or belittled.

Instead of sheep, I tend to think of most people as willing to be led, uninterested in how the sausage is made like you and I and a smaller faction. The church has previously been able to control that faction, mostly with a lack of knowledge and the hammer of celibacy. In this day and age, the world is much smaller and the info flies. How prescient, how blessed was the V II insight that freed the laity from those chains, and bound the laity to be responsible for itself.

Sometimes I hear you as not having hope for those folks, maybe just a mistake on my part. Nice to see your latest posts, which are faithful and powerful and speak to me.

Colleen, a small aside. You responded to my comment about V II causing the virulent right wing we see today. To be a bit more clear, the problem was not the opening windows or the thoughts. I think the Fathers were so used to control that they didn't foresee a lot of things. They expected rapt obedience to a change that they brought to the unchanging Church. Those who tried to remain unchanged were belittled, persecuted in a way. The Fathers never would have believed that allowing the vernacular while keeping Latin in its place of honor would become such a fierce preference for the simple, for understanding the Word. It's the implementation that brought the problem, the lack of understanding and trusting in communication that families learn and lone wolves fear.

mjc I agree to some extent, but a large number of those 'simple' had a lot of encouragement from rank and file clergy who did not want the changes themselves and fought implementation every step of the way.

Therap. Yep that integration is crucial, but to accomplish it will take a huge shift in how we relate to and interact with the world and each other. The attitude in which mistrust and fear characterise our interactions has to go. We are not inherently evil and Mother Nature is not out to get us.

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Lord, sometimes “the spirit of fear” can dominate our lives. We place before you the self-doubt that questions if we have the necessary ability to deal with the pressures of life. We embrace your grace that enables us to experience power, love and self-discipline to face the storms of life and navigate them in such a way that we are neither shipwrecked or drowned. Help us, Lord, not to live small or to settle for routine because we underestimate you. With a heart filled with gratitude, we will live this day for you.

—The Jesuit Prayer Team

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About Me

I am a Catholic mystic/psychic whose mission has been to find out what other spiritual traditions and scientific discoveries have to offer to understand the message of Jesus Christ. It's been a trip and a half. One I hope to share with you.