The boss swiped our dept. issued shotguns and all I have left is my 45acp and my AR. I've never hunted or shot an animal on purpose other than the 12ga, but I'm told that the 223 is a crap round for putting down injured deer on the side of a roadway.

I'd like something that can do it quickly in as few shots as possible. If there's really nothing out there, I can try the .45.

This came up last night and as I arrived on scene the doe kicked the bucket, saving me the trouble, but my Sgt. had no clear answer.

finz50

05-29-2011, 11:06

A .223/5.56 through the lungs or brain is just as deadly as a 30-06, especially at that close of a range....

lwt210

05-29-2011, 11:18

Lead through the head.

I have dispatched two on duty. 9mm on the first, .38 special the second time.

Both did the job well and put the critters out of their misery. In your situation, I'd opt for the .45 auto for that purpose.

I am assuming you carry a good hollowpoint .45 load.

msu_grad_121

05-29-2011, 11:30

I've only put one down, with a 9mm. A friend of mine that has dealt with this a lot tells me good things about the 62 grain ballistic tips from Black Hills, or their 77 grain OTM, but like finz50 was saying, at that range, I doubt it'll matter.

blueiron

05-29-2011, 11:39

Any bonded bullet or a projectile that is not a varmint bullet should work when used for a cranial shot.

If I had to buy my own rounds for this type of situation, I'd go with this or something like it: http://www.hornadyle.com/products/detail10aa.html?id=130&sID=86

txleapd

05-29-2011, 11:40

I hunt with a 270, but I've only used a 12 ga (and/or my K-Bar) to put down a wounded deer at work. We used to be able to check out 22 cal rifles to put down deer, but they pulled those years ago. I had an FTO who used to check out a 22 rifle back in the day, and had no problems putting one down. Any 223/5.56 round shouldn't be an issue.

RetailNinja

05-29-2011, 11:45

Lead through the head.

I have dispatched two on duty. 9mm on the first, .38 special the second time.

Both did the job well and put the critters out of their misery. In your situation, I'd opt for the .45 auto for that purpose.

I am assuming you carry a good hollowpoint .45 load.

The dept pulled our HPs, having us use them at range days until they were all gone, and replaced it with WWB ball. I still carry two mags of gold dot in my door cards.

blueiron

05-29-2011, 11:46

You are using ball ammo for duty use???

Kahr_Glockman

05-29-2011, 12:05

The dept pulled our HPs, having us use them at range days until they were all gone, and replaced it with WWB ball. I still carry two mags of gold dot in my door cards.

WTF!:wow:

If you guys are using WWB Ball for duty,..... EJECT!!!!

MeefZah

05-29-2011, 12:08

Ummm... I'm not the great white hunter by any means, but I've put down a few deer, and the ones I've shot in the head with a handgun have mostly tried to get up and walk off afterwards, sometimes looking at me like I had annoyed them. Brain stem shots seem most quick / useful, and provide the fewest dirty looks from the deer afterwards. Junction of the neck and back of the head. With a rifle I'd think a heart shot would cause relatively fast exanguination.

BamaTrooper

05-29-2011, 12:28

A veterinarian told me to aim from behind ear to the opposite eye and transect the brain.

blueiron

05-29-2011, 13:06

A veterinarian told me to aim from behind ear to the opposite eye and transect the brain.

This.

blueiron

05-29-2011, 13:16

With a rifle I'd think a heart shot would cause relatively fast exanguination.

Unfortunately, that is not the case. Deer, elk, etc. can run surprising distances with solid lung and or heart shots with hunting calibers. I had to track my first deer for about a 1/3 of a mile before it finally ran out of adrenaline and blood after a solid lung shot with a 7mm Remington Magnum, using a 150 grain Nosler partition bullet. A cranial shot is the best way to go to put down an injured animal.

DaBigBR

05-29-2011, 13:32

Shot placement, shot placement, shot placement. Generally with an injured deer, you're going to have the benefit of shooting at a non-mobile target at close range. The .223 is a perfectly suitable deer killer through either the melon shot method mentioned above, or a well placed heart-lung shot (yes, it will take longer with a heart-lung shot). Most officers in my area (where the deer are practically a vermin they are so overpopulated) use their handgun and can do the job with minimal expension of ammunition.

FWIW, my choice of .223 load is Speer Gold Dot in 64gr. It's bonded, but not as insanely priced as the Federal Tactical Bonded (TBBC).

USAFE7

05-29-2011, 15:36

If you are shooting an injured deer....a head shot would be the quickest and most humane means of dispatching it. With that said...whatever ammo you have in 5.56 will do that trick.
A 600 meters head shot with a SS109 will drop a human INSTANTLY, so at close range, a deer is east pickings.

Roadkill_751

05-29-2011, 15:58

A veterinarian told me to aim from behind ear to the opposite eye and transect the brain.

Is that how Alabama handles driver license suspensions!!!!:tongueout:

The ammo I use for my M-4 is Hornady 75gr BTHP TAP. It make a fine mess of a head..

lwt210

05-29-2011, 16:09

The dept pulled our HPs, having us use them at range days until they were all gone, and replaced it with WWB ball. I still carry two mags of gold dot in my door cards.

So they are okay withi overpenetration and taking out bystanders?

Is there a reasoning behind this other than cost?

VA27

05-29-2011, 17:17

.223? I use a 22 with whatever ammo I have. Subsonics work as well as HV. Shot placement is the key.

Denied

05-29-2011, 18:30

I carried a 22 colt woodsman in my bag just for deer and other injured animals, it did the job as long as the shot was in the right place, usually head shots.

Unistat

05-29-2011, 18:50

The dept pulled our HPs, having us use them at range days until they were all gone, and replaced it with WWB ball. I still carry two mags of gold dot in my door cards.

Stop. Start a whole 'nother thread on this subject.

blueiron

05-29-2011, 18:53

.223? I use a 22 with whatever ammo I have. Subsonics work as well as HV. Shot placement is the key.

I used them to slaughter cows on a ranch, but a .22 LR isn't the choice for culling road injured wild animals. They can be on the road, or the side of the road, but they can drag themselves off the road and down embankments or brush for a sizable distance. Leaving an injured animal to die isn't the humane option in such instances. The other problem to consider is that deer/elk/etc, are not domesticated and do not always allow someone to get close enough to get a clear precise shot.

A box of suitable ammunition for the AR is still the best option, IMO.

nitesite10mm

05-29-2011, 19:26

Winchester Power Point 64-gr JSP works well. I think the cranial stem or brain center shot is best. But if a head is positioned badly for that type of shot I like the above mentioned bullet.

BamaTrooper knows the right technique for brain shots. Works with most animals, BTW not just deer.

Remember with an AR at close range that the bullet will strike about 2-3/4" low if you use iron sights.

rudeboy3

05-29-2011, 19:39

The dept pulled our HPs, having us use them at range days until they were all gone, and replaced it with WWB ball. I still carry two mags of gold dot in my door cards.

WTF are you serious?

collim1

05-29-2011, 21:29

Why pull your shotguns?

I happen to be a real fan of the shotgun for LE work. Nothing wrong with having a rifle or carbine also, but I tend to grab the 870 with 00 buck first.

Also just as others are concerned, are you really carrying WWB FMJ for duty use?

razdog76

05-29-2011, 23:07

I get to regularly dispatch injured deer. I have shot deer with numerous handguns calibers, including my current duty gun which is a .45acp... many require a couple of shots to humanely take them to that pasture in the sky.

Shotguns are great, especially being able to choose between buck or slug depending on the circumstance, but no longer an option for you.

.223/5.56 for deer will slay them like a shotgun, but with ball ammo you will probably have mixed results with the shot presented.

As with any gun, a neck, or chest shot will work best. Head shots are very small targets, and the deer tend to flinch at close range turning a good sight picture into a marginal hit.

With the .223/5.56 ball, I would be very concerned about overpenetration if it does not hit bone causing the bullet to frag, especially with a marginal head hit. With a chest hit, the bullet will still cavitate and yaw, then probably continue base forward if it did not hit bone.

BTW get some ear plugs for your duty bag, especially if you will be using a rifle for dispatch deer. There is no sense in damaging your hearing for a deer.

VA27

05-29-2011, 23:24

I used them to slaughter cows on a ranch, but a .22 LR isn't the choice for culling road injured wild animals.

Nobody told me that when I hired on! I've been using the wrong gun! I've even put a deer down with a 950 Beretta...25ACP!:shocked:

They can be on the road, or the side of the road, but they can drag themselves off the road and down embankments or brush for a sizable distance.

Yup, sometimes you have to actually get your shoes dusty to take care of business.:tongueout:

Leaving an injured animal to die isn't the humane option in such instances. The other problem to consider is that deer/elk/etc, are not domesticated and do not always allow someone to get close enough to get a clear precise shot.

I have a big gun if I need it. I've used it exactly once in 35 years.

DaBigBR

05-29-2011, 23:48

BTW get some ear plugs for your duty bag, especially if you will be using a rifle for dispatch deer. There is no sense in damaging your hearing for a deer.

+1

I keep a set of the reusable rubber ones with the cord on them in my pocket for audible alarms and dispatching animals. Invaluable.

RetailNinja

05-30-2011, 11:44

You are using ball ammo for duty use???

Yes:crying::dunno:

RetailNinja

05-30-2011, 11:48

Is that how Alabama handles driver license suspensions!!!!:tongueout:

The ammo I use for my M-4 is Hornady 75gr BTHP TAP. It make a fine mess of a head..

I was thinking something heavy with a soft point. I'll look for that stuff too.

EOD3

05-30-2011, 12:23

Do try to remember that the bullet from an open sighted AR at a foot or two will strike low enough for a clean miss. Good entertainment for the bystanders but not so good for your reputation. You could be nicknamed "Quigly" befor you get back in the cruiser... :rofl:

DaBigBR

05-30-2011, 16:40

I was thinking something heavy with a soft point. I'll look for that stuff too.

The T2 75gr TAP is some pretty wicked stuff. Make sure you have a suitable barrel (1:8" or 1:7") for that weight.

GackMan

05-30-2011, 19:37

A .45 will do it just fine.

Behind the ear is good... but don't be like me. Deer hit by car, spine broken, still trying to get up using only front legs. I was going to shoot it through the brain but going behind the ear. But I aimed a little below the ear because the antlers were kind of in the way - I didn't want the shot to strike the antler and send pieces of if bouncing around (mainly at me - "how'd you lose that eye? deer antler."). Well... deer don't have big brains. Below the ear is the jaw, evidently. Shot the deer in the top of the jaw at the hinge. And basically un-hinged the thing and it was still trying to stand up with its lower jaw hanging loose.

Second shot put it out of its missery...

Panzergrenadier1979

05-30-2011, 19:55

I've termintated 3 deer and a rabid racoon so far. Each time I used my duty Glock 22 with Federal 180 grain Hydrashoks. The last deer took two head shots to finally die. The first shot just made the poor thing run at a full gallup while laying on it's side. Five minutes later it was still breathing, the second round finally killed it.

I've actually killed FOUR deer while on duty; the very first one was killed by the push bar on the Crown Vic while I was on FTO. I don't think that one counts. :supergrin:

Did someone say something about BALL duty ammo?!? :wow:

CJStudent

05-30-2011, 22:12

We also use XM193 55-grain ball as our duty load in mini-14s. Never seen it used except on the range, though. This is for tower use in a prison, though.

oliussw

05-31-2011, 01:09

We have to shoot alot here in semi-rual OK. Why even use a rifle? Pistol is cheaper, quieter, and works fine. Head shots work good for all injured animals.

Beeman

05-31-2011, 03:42

The local Wildlife Officers shoot them with .22's. I've never had a problem killing them with a handgun. Shoot them in the head using Bamatroopers method or if the deer is facing you make and "X" with they eyes and ears. Shoot for the middle of the "X". Please don't use your ASP... I've seen that attempted once.

razdog76

05-31-2011, 05:49

I looked for the old article Dr Fackler published in the Police Marksman, but could not find it. This one looks like a trimmed up version without the pictures and diagrams of the ballistic gelatin... http://www.olyarms.com/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=14&Itemid=26

At close range, ball should work great especially in the heart lung area.

As Panzergrenadier1979 indicated, sometimes the head doesn't always work for a quick end.

On a side note, think about how much less effective a pistol is compared to a rifle/shotgun on a 150+ pound, pissed off, adrenalin filled critter when you respond to calls with the potential for serious business.

golden_eagle

05-31-2011, 08:35

Please don't use your ASP... I've seen that attempted once.

:shocked:

sapper1911

05-31-2011, 14:00

:shocked:

My asp has one raccoon and one opossum credited to it. Both in areas were it wasn't safe to shoot off a round. Not ideal, but you gotta do what you gotta do. There is an infamous story of a deputy in the past trying to break a buck's neck with his hands.

I have no question that a 5.56 will do a fine job dispatching a deer. However being that both will get the job done, would you rather run a bore snake through your pistol and drive on or spend 30 minutes cleaning your AR?

old_pigpen

05-31-2011, 19:26

My asp has one raccoon and one opossum credited to it.

I dated the sister of the woman who killed the biggest deer ever killed in Coosa County, Alabama.....with her Pontiac Fiero! :wow:

The deer was DRT.....and so was her Fiero :supergrin:

Panzergrenadier1979

05-31-2011, 19:52

I dated the sister of the woman who killed the biggest deer ever killed in Coosa County, Alabama.....with her Pontiac Fiero! :wow:

The deer was DRT.....and so was her Fiero :supergrin:

A Fiero?! Really? I'd just assume that a Fiero would bounce off a good sized deer; possibly annoying the deer in the process. :upeyes:

RetailNinja

06-01-2011, 00:08

I've settled on 75 grain.. Not sure whether to order some TAP or ASYM...

Of note -

I was advised against headshots for the reasons mentioned above, missing can be gross, a pain in the ass, and make a spectacle.

Sharky7

06-01-2011, 00:24

Sorry off topic. They seriously pulled your HP duty ammo? If they would let you...I would just drop the 50 bucks and buy myself some HP for carry. Sheesh...what kind of numbskull made this decision. Obviously someone who carries more about budget and not enough about their officers.

Kahr_Glockman

06-01-2011, 09:22

They will suddenly start caring about the budget when they get sued for over penetration.

wprebeck

06-01-2011, 09:48

[COLOR=black][FONT=Verdana]My asp has one raccoon and one opossum credited to it. Both in areas were it wasn't safe to shoot off a round. Not ideal, but you gotta do what you gotta do. There is an infamous story of a deputy in the past trying to break a buck's neck with his hands.

There is a story around here about a man who retired as a rather high-ranking individual that once chased a wounded deer down the road in an attempt to dispatch it with a sword.

CJStudent

06-01-2011, 09:49

There is a story around here about a man who retired as a rather high-ranking individual that once chased a wounded deer down the road in an attempt to dispatch it with a sword.

That has to be PMed; I wonder if I know this guy, lol.

wprebeck

06-01-2011, 09:54

That has to be PMed; I wonder if I know this guy, lol.

Old county guy...your folks are all city, right?

He was a captain out in Baker a few years back - begins with a W. If you know him, that'll tell you who it was. If not you likely don't.

CJStudent

06-01-2011, 11:12

Old county guy...your folks are all city, right?

He was a captain out in Baker a few years back - begins with a W. If you know him, that'll tell you who it was. If not you likely don't.

My folks are actually county. I don't think I do know who that is, but the highest people I knew there were Lieutenants (though my grandfather and aunt probably do). I know my aunt worked in Baker a lot--I'll have to ask, lol.

RetailNinja

06-01-2011, 13:00

Sorry off topic. They seriously pulled your HP duty ammo? If they would let you...I would just drop the 50 bucks and buy myself some HP for carry. Sheesh...what kind of numbskull made this decision. Obviously someone who carries more about budget and not enough about their officers.

The old Sheriff was extremely tight with money. He figured he could save a couple hundred dollars by having us use up our duty ammo and replacing it with our range ball ammo, and simply buying more WWB. He did start us out using Gold Dot in the beginning when we switched to Glocks way back when.

The new sheriff is continuing with the ball ammo. Their thinking is simply that .45 ball has killed plenty of people since its inception, so why change things up.

...Their thinking is simply that .45 ball has killed plenty of people since its inception, so why change things up...

Well, as long as they're thinking...:upeyes:

Seriously, with that kind of logic they could give you .22 LR, after all that caliber has probably killed more people and animals than any other. Then you would have your duty gun and animal dispatcher in one weapon.

DaBigBR

06-02-2011, 09:57

At least .45 is already a big round and will likely overpenetrate less than 9mm or .40 ball...but still.

RetailNinja

06-02-2011, 22:13

At least .45 is already a big round and will likely overpenetrate less than 9mm or .40 ball...but still.

My experience also has me wondering where the heck the jacket will go, since when shooting things other than paper, the jacket seemsto go its own way.

EMTCOP

06-03-2011, 01:34

I'm sorry. What was the original topic again? I got lost at " WWB FMJ for duty."

Bren

06-04-2011, 08:33

The boss swiped our dept. issued shotguns and all I have left is my 45acp and my AR. I've never hunted or shot an animal on purpose other than the 12ga, but I'm told that the 223 is a crap round for putting down injured deer on the side of a roadway.

I can't imagine why. I have hunted deer with an AR-15 before - 2 55 gr. softpoints = 2 dead deer from about 100-125 yards. Should be a lot easier on the side of the road, but I'd probably just use a handgun.