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Wednesday, May 05, 2010

I've given my opinion about the new stop signs on Winnequah Road, so it's your turn.

What do you think? Good, bad, or ugly?

Addendum: Marked crosswalks and stop bars will be installed next week, weather permitting.

May 8 Note: Despite my note of May 6, readers just can't say enough about these stop signs and the comments keep rolling in. I'm caving in and publishing nine more comments this morning.

While some of them may be approaching Jane Curtin-Dan Ackroyd territory,they have not fallen to the level of the UW student sections' cheer-response at Badger football games (yet). You know the one.

May 6 Note: The comments are slipping into the SNL version of Point-Counterpoint and so I won't be posting any more opinions right now. (I have a couple more comments in the hopper that I have to look at again.) If you see something factual worthy of reporting, submit it and I likely will post it.

And please, let's use some patience out there folks. Like it or not, Winnequah is not a free flow road anymore, so expect to stop a couple times and maybe wait in a short line of cars during peak hours.

Don't do what school bus #136 did this morning and try to pass the Green Valley garbage truck when it stops to collect trash on Winnequah at the Frostwoods intersection.

***

And note the invitation from Monona's Community Officer Jeremy Winge:

For those of you who have problems in your neighborhood please contact me. My name is Community Officer Jeremy Winge. You can call and leave me a voice mail any time day or night at 222-0463 or shoot me an email at jwinge@ci.monona.wi.us

46 comments:

Love them! Compliance at intersections so equipped seems to be good and improving. We are actually seeing cyclists using the bump-outs as intended to be able to pass cars stopping at the intersections (this is how they were intended to work anyway, right???). A few people asked if the stop signs were going to be permanent, but as we know there is a sunset period for them after the installation. It is absolutely wonderful not to have to sit at any of the South Winnequah intersections forever waiting for traffic to clear to turn onto Winnequah; the signs appear to be provideing good gaps in the traffic flow allowing side street traffic to turn onto Winnequah more efficiently.

How about 'gates' at Maywood and Bridge Road, creating a Winnebago Squaw Community, charging fees to use this access to Monona. These folks could then contract for public services and have a quiet and peaceful residential community.

I almost ran one of the stop signs yesterday because it took me by surprise. I noticed a couple of cars ran the stop signs. The stop signs don't seem natural because those intersections weren't originally designed with those stop signs in mind.

Overall, it's a good drive spoiled now. I always liked the leisurely, stop-free drive down that one mile stretch of Winnequah.

Issues I see are when heading south the signs are difficult to see and the one at Frostwoods is almost invisible. Also no stop lines painted on the roadway. I know that they are supposed to be "temporary" but I think that the stop lines and maybe "Stop Ahead" should be on the roadway.

Road my bike back and forth from the Bridge Road/Winnequah Road intersection to the WQ/Maywood Rd intersection. There did seem to be pretty good compliance, although I did hear what sounded like an angry honk from one car.

Having said that, I think the signs may be a recipe for some minor rear-end collision for those used to driving WQ unimpeded.

And I still don't understand the concern over utilization of speed bumps. I know comparing things in this town to Madison is verboten, but I drove through yet another Madison neighborhood this week on a similar semi-main thoroughfare that used bumps effectively to keep speeding to a minimum. If excessive speed really is the most important issue surrounding WQ (moreso than bumps-out, traffic flow, or emergency vehicle speeds on that road), speed bumps seem like a decent alternative.

The signs are a bad idea for the reasons you, the Police Chief and City Engineer indicated. I encourage folks to contact the City Council members and tell them the signs are a bad idea. Maybe we can get the sunset date moved up a bit.

Thumbs up for the Maywood and Winnequah stop signs. It was the most dangerous intersection my children had to cross. Now we have a ban on texting coming this fall. I can't tell you how many cars used to veer into the bike lanes while rounding that corner at 30mph+ with their smart phone. Definitely made for a nerve-wracking walk to Maywood park with the kids. I hope these stop signs will remain in place after the trial period. We need better crosswalk striping here as well. Thank you for installing them.

I hate them. Ran practically through the first one (going 25 mph, too). I am not a fan. I saw a biker run right through them. So much for compliance on their part. I thought it was a complete waste of my gas to stop and start at them. I found them awkward in their placement and really didn't solve the problem in my humble opinion.

I received this comment by email from Brian Mink. He has given me permission to post it here.

Mayor Kahl,

Drove to my lab at about 4:00 AM this morning and returned this afternoon to two annoying stop signs on Winnequah. I understand from talking to Alders and local police that you are somewhat annoyed by the speed of vehicles passing by your house. Did you really need to use you influence and power to have stop signs placed on Winnequah so we can all be inconvenienced? What's wrong with issue tickets to speeders versus generating frustration and ill will for all?

Stop signs may work to slow traffic, but they also cause a significant increase in fuel use, which causes more air quality issues. What in the world are you thinking????

I would like to see the signs removed as soon as possible. They are as ill conceived as the ridiculously costly traffic calming measures that the all wise city council included in the remake of Winnequah Drive. Those measures created a nice set of raised platforms for garbage cans and brush and tend to piss off the snow plow drivers, but they have done nothing to slow traffic. I suspect your stop signs will elicit a lot of comments like mine and similar requests. Time to step back in time Mr. Mayor and remove the signs!!!

I mostly want to stay in the background for a day or so and let the comments play out. However, I did want to mention one item regarding bicycles.

It is unclear whether bikers are required to stop at the Frostwoods/Winnequah stop because of its placement within the bump-out. This morning going southbound I slowed down on my bike for that stop sign and then realized I was on the 'sidewalk' so I don't think I'm required to stop and I didn't. (Going NB is technically the same situation, but not as safe because you cross the path of other traffic that probably expects you to stop.)

I spoke with a Monona police officer this afternoon. He is thrilled with the signs; also informed a cyclist that came by to ask about the signs and the officer informed the cyclist that yes, the cyclists are indeed required to stop when rolling south on the west side of WQ as well as northbound on the east side path. I don't know if bike enforcement will be as heavy as for cars and delivery trucks. But this officer also mentioned to me that there has been a significant traffic increased on WQ because of the Monona Drive rebuild.

But all I can say is that the signs appear to be working well. So, we would home that the nay sayers would simply suck it up and deal with the traffic management experiment. This is an experiment to see what the best way to control speed and also allow local residents ease of crossing the street and improving the safety for pedestrians all along Winnequah. If the signs slow you down, then simply plan your day better so that you are not so over-scheduled that you need to speed.

I run on Winnequah, often early in the morning. The only time I ever worry about my safety is at the curve at Maywood. Regardless of whether I'm wearing brightly colored reflective clothing, the curve is blind heading northwest. I sometimes hop into the grass as I round the corner if traffic seems to be moving quickly, and I've had a couple of close calls with speedy cars that cross into the bike lane. I'm not saying stop signs are the only way to improve safety on Winnequah, but I do appreciate any measure that would offer more protection to pedestrians (walkers, runners and otherwise). I also don't think urban chickens are a sign of Armageddon (but a hog farm next door certainly would be).

Please stop with assaults toward the mayor with regard to stop signs. It is not his personal issue any more than anyone else who lives in the neighborhood that walks, bikes, or has children, and it need not be mentioned that the at-large elected council voted to approve this measure. Striping (a low cost item) for cross walks at the stop locations is needed to help visually with those of us who are used to cruising at constant speed- it will help to have striping done asap. It will take some time getting adjusted to the new stop signs for all of us who use Winnequah, but it will become the new norm in time and your angst will fade. Stop signs are not "ridiculously costly" to install. No argument on the chokers.

The review posted above for using "unwarranted stop signs" for traffic calming is quite instructive and overwhelmingly indicates that unwarranted stop signs do not slow traffic and cause a multitude of other problems. The Council has already erred with the costly installation of bump outs for calming speeds. Its track record and recommendations are not based on science, research or common sense.

So for all of you who claim that the naysayers should just suck it up; I say read the scientific research, accept the facts and let's remove the signs. We have every right to criticize, whine and bring science based rationality to the table.

As a regular commuter on that stretch of Winnequah, I have so far found the Stop signs to be an annoyance, especially during low traffic times . . . and both times heading south during 'rush hour', cars from Maywood blew through their Stop sign (continuing a common occurance).

Anecdotally and speaking from experience, I can't imagine 'wanting' a Stop sign out side my door; the increased noise and the increased volitles from exhaust are not pleasant.

I think the opposition to having controlled intersection for our children to cross the street safely is truly sad. Yes there is hope to slow traffic, but the real issue is pedestrian safety! If I can't feel safe crossing Winnequah than how can I trust that my children will be safe...cross walks are to be painted next week as Doug pointed out, maybe then people will understand the installation of these signs! I really don't get the negative feedback...other than "Overall, it's a good drive spoiled now. I always liked the leisurely, stop-free drive down that one mile stretch of Winnequah."Of course it is going to take some getting used to, especially the first few days...

While stop signs might not be adequate for controlling speed, and you are irritated by them, can you make a better, more cost-effective suggestion for creating a safe environment where pedestrians (especially children) can cross this busy stretch of road with the reasonable expectation that they can do so safely?

I've participated in this long and in-depth conversation for some time - and I've lived on Winnequah Road with young children for 13 years. I don't recall ever meeting you.

It is hard to have respect for your demands and accusations of undue influence, noting that I don't recall that you participated in any way in the process that got our city to this point. There were plenty of other options on the table that you were welcome to show up and support, but you didn't, as far as I am aware. And here we are.

It's a democracy. Input was received and a vote was taken. It's great that you want to weigh in, but I think it's quite short-sighted of you to whine about your commute, without taking into account any other users of this stretch of the street.

I would argue that your "inconvenience" is worth it - are you the only street user with the "right" to an easy commute? All we want to do is provide an opportunity for our kids to get off the school bus (it drops them off on the west side of the road, we live on the east side of the road - as do MANY other families with school-bus riding children) and have a safe way to get from one side to the other.

Much study and analysis has proven that drivers of this stretch of road (you included?) either CAN'T or WON'T control their speed and follow the law. All of this information is available to the public and has been presented and explained at a multitude of meetings. Therefore, Public Safety and Public Works recommended to the Council that we address it in this manner, since we don't have the funds to patrol this street for speeders on a daily, or even weekly or monthly basis.

I find it energizing and enlightening to have conversations with people about how to best address issues in our great community - but people who only complain about the end result of the democratic process with unfounded accusations and selfish reactions about their daily schedule, as well as throw out insults to the people who volunteer their time to serve on the Council - and then make unreasonable demands - I don't have much time for that.

I think it is a little difficult to argue that there is NOT undue influence.

My understanding is that the mayor makes several well placed calls every time this issue is on the agenda and his neighbors show up for the meeting-fair enough. The rest of us do not have that advantage for right or wrong.

I agree that there is too much speeding on Winnequah and different things need to be attempted.

Yet. it is sad that pedestrian safety in other parts of our city are being ignored while the problems on Winnequah are highlighted. Yes, we can argue they are more acute in that location, but it is strange that a few months after the mayor moves in-the town and council are trying to fix the problem and that is all we are talking about.

My daughter was darn near smacked by driver walking to her stop that is not on Winnequah. There are not crosswalks for her bus stop and no discussion about putting them in a four way stop.

I can understand other residents concerns about undue influence and I can I understand the people on Winnequah concerns-who cares about influence this problem has been here and it needs to change.

I don't like them. However, I completely understand their reasoning for them being there to control speed. Yes, many people do speed on Winnequah but wouldn't a cop doing radar do the same thing as the stop signs? I've seen many people blow through the stop signs, not even making an attempt to slow down. This may be because they're so new still or because people just don't care.I would think that having a cop doing radar randomly but still frequently would teach people not to speed, whereas people may barely or not even stop at all at the stop signs making their purpose useless.As far as a child's safety goes...if your child is old enough to walk alone don't you think they should also be old enough to understand to watch out for cars? If you're walking with your child don't you think it's your responsibility as a parent to protect your child?

"While stop signs might not be adequate for controlling speed, and you are irritated by them, can you make a better, more cost-effective suggestion for creating a safe environment where pedestrians (especially children) can cross this busy stretch of road with the reasonable expectation that they can do so safely?"

Well, Ms Fuss, yes I can make a cost effective recommendation for reducing the excessive speed on WQ. Many school zones are installing sign based speed displays which are proven to be effective at reminding drivers to slow down with an immediate visual warning. You may have noticed that the city of Madison is using this method which is based on reliable research.

Despite your contention, I've written nothing that impunes the democratic process or citizen efforts. I'm just contending that the result, just like the failed bump outs lacks reasoning based on science and should therefore be reconsidered. Now your Democracy might not like criticism, but the one I hope I live in encourages it.

I don't hate children, I don't speed, I don't undermine constitutional rights, or any of the other things you accuse me of; I do however question the end result of this particular democratic process.

"it is sad that pedestrian safety in other parts of our city are being ignored while the problems on Winnequah are highlighted."

The city has actually done some things in response to citizen concerns in other areas.

If you have identified a safety problem in a specific location, please contact city staff (the police chief or city administrator to start), send me an email at dwood@ci.monona.wi.us, or drop in at a Public Safety Commission meeting during the public appearances at the beginning of the meeting, or contact the alders on that committee (Jim Busse and Mike Veserat).

As far as the mayor's influence, I don't entirely get the complaint. We did identify speeding problems and concerns about pedestrian safety. It's the busiest residential street in Monona. So, he didn't invent a problem. I don't agree with the stop signs as the solution, but I lost 5-1 on that vote.

Maybe the mayor calls people to get them to show up at meetings, but I also know that some of the neighbors see things on this blog and get the word out to neighbors and they have a neighborhood association. They follow this stuff, they show up (again and again - the process grinds fine and slowly), they make their voice heard.

Yes, my children are old enough to walk alone,as am I, and we are well-schooled in looking out for cars after living for many years on Winnequah Road. However, looking for a car speeding at us as we walk down the street won't do us much good as it is plowing into us at 35 miles per hour or more - these speed rates have been documented by our PD.

And, my comments to Brian Mink are to remind him that if he doesn't participate in the process, I've got little patience for his rude commentary now. If he's got so much to offer, he should show up and contribute. For his information, there were speed tables, lighted LED speed signs (as in Madison) and several other things proposed, considered, and discussed as options. Do I think that the stop signs are the best that we could do? Probably not. But it was all that was offered to council as an option, and it is certainly better than nothing.

So, thanks Mr. Mink for your advice. I do remember someone suggesting an LED sign as a supplement to the stop signs, so perhaps one will still appear - you can check the various minutes of the meetings for confirmation. By the way, the accusations that you make at the end of your 2nd post are interesting - I re-read my post to you. Pretty sure I didn't call you a child-hater, etc, etc.

The Police Department has a portable speed trailer. Currently it is not working. We are trying to get it repaired as quickly as possible. Once it is fixed it will be out as much as possible. It is battery operated so it must be charged back at the police station every so often.

For those of you who have problems in your neighborhood please contact me. My name is Community Officer Jeremy Winge. You can call and leave me a voice mail any time day or night at 222-0463 or shoot me an email at jwinge@ci.monona.wi.us

As your community officer I will be more then happy to address any problems you are having in your neighborhood.

I'd like to thank Cari Fuss for helping us address an issue that has been a cause for concern on South Winnequah for some time - problems with traffic and safety. I agree with all of her poinst and thank her for carrying the torch.

Mr. Mink, there are no such "scientific" studies, only "engineering" studies. Scientific studies are published in journals. Are you a scientist?

I certainly did not see you at any of the meetings of the Public Safety and later, Public Works. Did you comment? And, please tell me, how are the stop signs as they are currently installed so offensive to you? Does it add any more than perhaps 2 minutes to your commute? Seriously?

The issue with Winnequah is that it it is a road that it's not a road that can easily be pigeonholed into a convenient category of feeder, residential or any other type of street. Thus, solutions for dealing with pedestrian and bicyclist safety are going to fall out of convenient engineering solutions so some creativity is needed. The stop signs are to stay in minimally until November when the first phase of Monona Drive is complete. This will NOT change, so other writers here who have told the naysayers to suck it up and deal with it are correct.

I absolutely disagree with Alder Doug on his vote, but as he has a right and responsibility to vote as he sees fit. he has also mentioned that the only way that the issue will be reconsidered would be if one of the majority brings the issue up again.

But to echo earlier comments here - slow down, deal with the stop signs in a mature manner, and let's see how they work in assisting accommodation of cars, bikes and walkers on to a busy street. Remember that the next step may be something even more onerous to some...speed tables.

As a Monona resident living on Winnequah Road, we have been battling speeders for 12 years. The stop signs are working to slow down traffic. Winnequah is a residential street, not a "country drive" not solely a collector street. The safety of our school children and residents is the issue to slow down traffic to the speed limit of 25 MPH. I applaud the mayor for highlighting the speeding issue on Winnequah. If everyone followed the 25 MPH speed limit we would not need the stop signs. Since 25% of the population speed, we need the stop signs. Stop the speeding and reckless driving, and we would be happy to take them out.

"But to echo earlier comments here - slow down, deal with the stop signs in a mature manner, and let's see how they work in assisting accommodation of cars, bikes and walkers on to a busy street. Remember that the next step may be something even more onerous to some...speed tables."

I certainly accept the will and outcome of Democratic decision making. I don't speed on WQ like 75% of other Monona residents. Much of the fair weather part of the year I am a bicycle commuter and certainly understand the pedestrian and cyclist safety issues.

What I don't quite get is that there is an underlying current in these threads of criticism that put forth the notion that unless citizens are actually sitting at or before the council they do not have a legitimate voice. I did not appear before the council on this issue, but it's my understanding of Democracy that one has a voice even if you're not part of the most active group of citizens. You all don't own the process. You may have influenced the outcome more than citizens that don't have the time due to work and other obligations; but don't accuse those of us who raised concerns after the final outcome of being anti democratic. Even less than active citizens of this community have a voice, even if you do not believe it's appropriate or legitimate.

I'd say suck it up and listen to other citizens even if haven't met them face to face.

I strongly voiced opposition to the original traffic calming designs and even went so far as to ask the Cycling and Pedestrian Coordinator for the DNR to look at the design(who wrote the DOT textbook on this topic), which does not conform to DOT design criteria in some ways.The city did not ask for DOT oversight and involvement and they (the DOT) would not respond to a citizen request for intervention. The end result was an expensive mistake.

There are engineering studies based on scientific survey principles and design that conclude that non warranted stop signs do not reduce traffic speed. SO, once again the council and citizens appear to have side stepped a body of knowledge that presents an opposing and important point of view.

Speed tables may indeed be more effective as they do indeed reduce speed without stopping traffic. I'd suggest that if the stop signs fail to accomplish the goal that Monona consider borrowing temporary speed tables from the DOT to study their effectiveness.

In the meantime, I will, just like the majority of other Monona Citizens, comply with the stop signs in an adult manner, as I do believe in the rule of law.

I'm not sure if you're still accepting comments (somehow missed this yesterday), but I think that the calls to remove the stop signs *immediately* are way off base. The city has been trying to address these problems logically and factually, and have speed readers that they can place in various areas to gauge exactly how many people are following the law, how many are breaking the law, and by how much. Guess what, if the data ON WINNEQUAH shows that cars are indeed traveling at their prior speeds (speeding) in between the stop signs, then as noted the stop signs will be removed come November. It will have cost a few hundred dollars and a few precious moments of drivers' time, and the city can move to more onerous methods of speed control, including possibly more police time on Winnequah, speed tables, etc.

Not sure if this qualifies as fact based, please feel free to bag my comments.Speeds seem slower from Maywood to Frost, but faster from Frost out to bridge. Traffic is up on bridge-I know cause I went there trying to avoid Winnequah.

These comments made me laugh thanks everyone.Issues.1. Safety2. FlowTricking drivers and confusing bikers with chokers, and or stopping and starting for no reason??? Not Green, Not Wise! When I trailer down this road I have a tire on each line, not safe. Drive around the Monona Bay Neighborhood with the speed platforms, nice flow for drivers, bikers and walker/runners. Doesn't seem that difficult? Why did this become such a mess?If the people who live on Winnequah really cared about the safety of the children and peds. They should have opted for the sidewalks when it was an option. Does anyone no the safety record of ped vs auto accidents on this road?

I actually crossed the street with my child at the Maywood intersection and felt safe doing so for the first time since we started taking walks in that area three years ago. Thanks to the alders and Mayor Kahl for realizing it is not just the cars that use this busy street.

I'd echo the comments of a poster that suggests this problem has been pushed from Winnequah Road over the Bridge Road. Both roads are experiencing traffic increases due to Monona Drive work, and Bridge Road is in many ways more conducive now to speeding that Winnequah -- it's wider, no bump-outs, no stop signs from Owen Road south to Winnequah, and there is far less bike traffic that in some ways acts as a speed inhibitor on Winnequah. Ironically, one of the most effective ways I've seen speed reduced on Bridge Road is the fairly consistent presence of a police car, near Bridge Road park, which does pull cars over (as I can attest to personally.)

I still don't get the true prevailing issue here. Is it speeding? Is it slowing down traffic to allow children to cross the street? Is it providing controlled (stop-signed) intersections along Winnequah to allow children to cross the street? Is it overall pedestrian/bicycle safety? I'd argue it's much safer to bike on lower Winnequah, with its dedicated bike lane on each side of the road, than on Bridge Road. Pedesetrain safety is best insured by building sidewalks, which unfortunately the city seems too unwilling to pay for and/or impose on property owners. Too bad.

"I'd echo the comments of a poster that suggests this problem has been pushed from Winnequah Road over the Bridge Road. Both roads are experiencing traffic increases due to Monona Drive work."

I passed your comment along to the Monona PD.

I am curious, though about traffic diverting from Winnequah to Bridge. It seems like shifting to Bridge wouldn't be a viable switch except for a pretty small area of town. There isn't any reasonable alternate route to Winnequah for most drivers.

"I still don't get the true prevailing issue here. Is it speeding? Is it slowing down traffic to allow children to cross the street? Is it providing controlled (stop-signed) intersections along Winnequah to allow children to cross the street? Is it overall pedestrian/bicycle safety?"

I think all of those things are elements of the problem. Speeding has gotten the most attention, but if had sidewalks, then I suspect the current speeds would not be perceived as a big problem.

The exception was at the bottom of the Maywood Park hill where about 35-45% of all traffic traveled at least 5 mph over the speed limit. That's a huge number. Between 5-10% traveled at least 10 mph over the speed limit.

(For the cynics out there, please that by far the biggest speeding problem was at the curve by the mayor's house. So the mayor had good reason to be very interested in this problem both from a personal standpoint and from a city standpoint.)

But really until we get the pedestrians out of the street along that stretch we are going to have a safety issue.

I think anyone who lives south of Nichols Road, that wants to avoid Monona Drive south of Nichols Road (now torn up), and is traveling to and from work that requires getting on the Beltline, views Bridge Road as a pretty decent alternative to Winnequah. It's pretty easy to get to via Midmoor Road (Monona's inner north/south Beltline) or Pheasant Hill -- just a short jog on Panther Trail and you're on Bridge Road, with just the Owen Road stop sign slowing things down (and the aforementioned police car, which I'm glad is there). If you live on or west of Maywood Road -- yes, Winnequah is probably the favored route. But east of Maywood extended (like McKenna) -- for many people, I'd think Bridge Road is just as easy to access as Winnequah. Bridge just seems busier lately, now that construction is in full force on Monona Drive, and it'll be interesting to see if it picks up more with the Winnequah signage issue. (And I know there are Bridge Road residents who are concerned about speeding -- they sometimes yell at drivers excessively exceeding the speed limit on the road.)

"Drive around the Monona Bay Neighborhood with the speed platforms, nice flow for drivers, bikers and walker/runners. Doesn't seem that difficult? Why did this become such a mess?If the people who live on Winnequah really cared about the safety of the children and peds. They should have opted for the sidewalks when it was an option. Does anyone no the safety record of ped vs auto accidents on this road? "

Oh I sooooo agree with you Mr Jaworski!

If speed is an issue then stop with all the dancing around it and DO something that has been shown to work . . . bumps not stop signs.

Stop signs don't seem to mean much to Monona drivers as far as I can tell.

Several of us advocated for speed tables, speed bumps, removable speed bumps, etc. I believe that the Public Safety Committee forwarded this recommendation. They were overruled at some point in the process (perhaps by Public Works? Missed that meeting.) and so we got stop signs instead. Again, not perfect. Again, better than nothing.

Can I split the difference? I think the upper stop sign at the curve is not a bad idea. I sometimes walk that stretch and it's a very dangerous spot for pedestrians. Sidewalks are the ultimate solution, but unless that happens I like that stop sign.

But I feel completely different about the one at Frostwoods. As I understand it, this is to provide safe crossing for children? Well, it is not a blind corner and any child who can safely cross a street can cross there without a stop sign. Any child who is not old enough to cross a street should not be crossing it - stop sign or not. Further, I do not see what it does for the section of road between Bridge and Frostwoods. The pedestrians down that way still do not have a controlled place to cross.