So centuries of tradition should be changed in the USA because individuals want to pick and choose it? I know the protestants have taught most people in this country to have worship focus on the "me" but in Orthodoxy it is usually about "us" and not "me" in fact, submission and taking things as they are are normal experineces. But then again I grew up with the old timers before the younger me generation converted in and started demanding things that just make no sense.

American evolution. I'm tired of seeing people sneer pysanky but praise the jesse tree, I'm tired of innovation. The next thing we'll see if girl altarboys, guitars and everyone holding hands around the "table of sacrifice" and liturgical dancing... all in the name of "they did it that way in the early church."Want to live that route I'm sure you can find a slew of churches under one column in the yellow pages that will let you fairy dance around the altar while the priest raises the cookie

So centuries of tradition should be changed in the USA because individuals want to pick and choose it? I know the protestants have taught most people in this country to have worship focus on the "me" but in Orthodoxy it is usually about "us" and not "me" in fact, submission and taking things as they are are normal experineces. But then again I grew up with the old timers before the younger me generation converted in and started demanding things that just make no sense.

As far as I'm aware, the prayers were originally read out loud. They began to be read silently to speed up the service. So the trend is really restoring the original practice.

From Metropolitan Hilarion Alfeyev:

Quote

The active participation of lay people in the Liturgy presupposes the possibility of their responding to the exclamations of the priest and hearing the so-called “silent” prayers. In contemporary church practice these prayers, as a rule, are read by the priest silently, which creates an additional barrier between the priest and his flock. More importantly, this habit deprives the faithful since the main point of the Liturgy passes them by. I have heard many arguments in favour of the practice of silent prayers, but none has seemed convincing to me. The so-called “silent” prayers were originally read aloud by the celebrating clergy. I think that in our time the faithful should have the opportunity to hear these prayers in their entirety, not only their concluding subordinate clauses (these signify that the prayers have been read but do not give the least notion of their content: “That being always guarded by Thy might”, “Singing the triumphant hymn, crying…”, “Thine own of Thine own, we offer unto Thee…”). At least the prayer of the anaphora, which summarizes the essence of the Liturgy, should be read aloud.http://orthodoxeurope.org/page/12/1.aspx

There are just some things that ought to be restored. Personally, it includes not just the "silent prayers", but also the Kiss of Peace as well. In addition to the parishioners saying "Amen" at the end of each petition during the Epiclesis.(one note, I noticed in Greece that everyone bowed at the waist, or at least their heads, and remained dead silent during the Anaphora/Epiclesis, I would love for this to spread)

Quote

There is then brought to the president of the brethren bread and a cup of wine mixed with water; and he taking them, gives praise and glory to the Father of the universe, through the name of the Son and of the Holy Ghost, and offers thanks at considerable length for our being counted worthy to receive these things at His hands. And when he has concluded the prayers and thanksgivings, all the people present express their assent by saying Amen. This word Amen answers in the Hebrew language to γένοιτο [so be it]. And when the president has given thanks, and all the people have expressed their assent, those who are called by us deacons give to each of those present to partake of the bread and wine mixed with water over which the thanksgiving was pronounced, and to those who are absent they carry away a portion. - St. Justin Martyr, Ch. 65 "First Apology"http://www.ccel.org/ccel/schaff/anf01.viii.ii.lxv.html

So centuries of tradition should be changed in the USA because individuals want to pick and choose it? I know the protestants have taught most people in this country to have worship focus on the "me" but in Orthodoxy it is usually about "us" and not "me" in fact, submission and taking things as they are are normal experineces. But then again I grew up with the old timers before the younger me generation converted in and started demanding things that just make no sense.

Hate to break it to you, but those sorts of minor changes to the liturgy have been going on for as long as there has been a liturgy. If you want to see the liturgy done exactly as it was by St. John Chrysostom, I suggest a time machine, because you aren't going to find it in any church, Orthodox or otherwise.

So centuries of tradition should be changed in the USA because individuals want to pick and choose it? I know the protestants have taught most people in this country to have worship focus on the "me" but in Orthodoxy it is usually about "us" and not "me" in fact, submission and taking things as they are are normal experineces. But then again I grew up with the old timers before the younger me generation converted in and started demanding things that just make no sense.

Hate to break it to you, but those sorts of minor changes to the liturgy have been going on for as long as there has been a liturgy. If you want to see the liturgy done exactly as it was by St. John Chrysostom, I suggest a time machine, because you aren't going to find it in any church, Orthodox or otherwise.

That's a good point. At the same time, it can also be leveled at a lot of the folks in favor of the anaphora prayers being audible, since they argue that this is the ancient practice. Everybody is looking for time machines, just set for different centuries.

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Radiates, vegetables, monstrosities, star spawn— whatever they had been, they were men!

Surely the best reason for the anaphora prayers remaining inaudible (unintelligible, to be more correct) is a practical one: It is quite distracting to hear the clash of voices of clergy and choir during the most sublime and sacred period of the Liturgy. Anaphora versus We praise You .... , This is greatly compounded by the modern tendency for priests to wear radio mikes - what was a distraction becomes a disgraceful cacophony. Any sense of compunction and reverence is destroyed.

Surely the best reason for the anaphora prayers remaining inaudible (unintelligible, to be more correct) is a practical one: It is quite distracting to hear the clash of voices of clergy and choir during the most sublime and sacred period of the Liturgy. Anaphora versus We praise You .... , This is greatly compounded by the modern tendency for priests to wear radio mikes - what was a distraction becomes a disgraceful cacophony. Any sense of compunction and reverence is destroyed.

In the Antiochian Archdiocese "We praise You..." comes after the audible Anaphora.

Surely the best reason for the anaphora prayers remaining inaudible (unintelligible, to be more correct) is a practical one: It is quite distracting to hear the clash of voices of clergy and choir during the most sublime and sacred period of the Liturgy. Anaphora versus We praise You .... , This is greatly compounded by the modern tendency for priests to wear radio mikes - what was a distraction becomes a disgraceful cacophony. Any sense of compunction and reverence is destroyed.

In the Antiochian Archdiocese "We praise You..." comes after the audible Anaphora.

Surely the best reason for the anaphora prayers remaining inaudible (unintelligible, to be more correct) is a practical one: It is quite distracting to hear the clash of voices of clergy and choir during the most sublime and sacred period of the Liturgy. Anaphora versus We praise You .... , This is greatly compounded by the modern tendency for priests to wear radio mikes - what was a distraction becomes a disgraceful cacophony. Any sense of compunction and reverence is destroyed.

In the Antiochian Archdiocese "We praise You..." comes after the audible Anaphora.

Surely the best reason for the anaphora prayers remaining inaudible (unintelligible, to be more correct) is a practical one: It is quite distracting to hear the clash of voices of clergy and choir during the most sublime and sacred period of the Liturgy. Anaphora versus We praise You .... , This is greatly compounded by the modern tendency for priests to wear radio mikes - what was a distraction becomes a disgraceful cacophony. Any sense of compunction and reverence is destroyed.

In the Antiochian Archdiocese "We praise You..." comes after the audible Anaphora.

Not the case in Greek or Russian churches.

That would be distracting.

It is quite nice if the "se ymnoumen" / "we praise you" is sung sufficiently quietly.

I don't think it's correct to delay the hymn until after the epiklesis as it actually completes the "ta se ek ton son" / "Your own of Your own" prayer. If seems to make more sense to delay the epiklesis until after the hymn if they are not to be prayed concurrently.

Surely the best reason for the anaphora prayers remaining inaudible (unintelligible, to be more correct) is a practical one: It is quite distracting to hear the clash of voices of clergy and choir during the most sublime and sacred period of the Liturgy. Anaphora versus We praise You .... , This is greatly compounded by the modern tendency for priests to wear radio mikes - what was a distraction becomes a disgraceful cacophony. Any sense of compunction and reverence is destroyed.

In the Antiochian Archdiocese "We praise You..." comes after the audible Anaphora.

Not the case in Greek or Russian churches.

It just depends on which church you're attending. I've been to quite a few Greek ones where they do indeed delay the chanting of "We praise you" until after the triple "Amen" of the Anaphora.

I never said I want a time machine to take me back anywhere. I just want the liturgy in my tradition (Slavic) to be performed per the sluzhebnik/Служебникъ. Looking at the OCA, ROCOR, Ukrainian, ACROD, Serbian Служебникъ it doesn't call for the silent priest prayers/epiclesis to be read aloud. Sorry, I'm not someone that was welcomed into the family and then came into someone else's house and immediately told everyone how to be.

Can't agree. Hearing "Send down Thy Holy Spirit upon us and upon these gifts here spread forth" was one of 3 related events in my life that reinvigorated my baptism at the age of 17 years old. Also, the mystically read prayers are too very beautiful to be said silently, in my opinion. Thank God each of the 3 presiding priests who have served my parish over the past 41+ years conduct so the Divine Liturgy.

I have yet to see any priest be that exacting with the rubrics. Keep in mind that we have only had standardized liturgical texts and rubrics for a couple centuries. To become dogmatic over them ignores liturgical history and, I think, the spirit of liturgy in the first place.

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I would suggest most persons in general avoid any question beginning with why.

I never said I want a time machine to take me back anywhere. I just want the liturgy in my tradition (Slavic) to be performed per the sluzhebnik/Служебникъ. Looking at the OCA, ROCOR, Ukrainian, ACROD, Serbian Служебникъ it doesn't call for the silent priest prayers/epiclesis to be read aloud. Sorry, I'm not someone that was welcomed into the family and then came into someone else's house and immediately told everyone how to be.

Well, it isn't just converts that are calling for this, as I posed above, even Metropolitan Hilarion, who in my opinion, will be the next Patriarch, has even called for it, or at least supported it.

I never said I want a time machine to take me back anywhere. I just want the liturgy in my tradition (Slavic) to be performed per the sluzhebnik/Служебникъ. Looking at the OCA, ROCOR, Ukrainian, ACROD, Serbian Служебникъ it doesn't call for the silent priest prayers/epiclesis to be read aloud. Sorry, I'm not someone that was welcomed into the family and then came into someone else's house and immediately told everyone how to be.

Well, it isn't just converts that are calling for this, as I posed above, even Metropolitan Hilarion, who in my opinion, will be the next Patriarch, has even called for it, or at least supported it.

I never said I want a time machine to take me back anywhere. I just want the liturgy in my tradition (Slavic) to be performed per the sluzhebnik/Служебникъ. Looking at the OCA, ROCOR, Ukrainian, ACROD, Serbian Служебникъ it doesn't call for the silent priest prayers/epiclesis to be read aloud. Sorry, I'm not someone that was welcomed into the family and then came into someone else's house and immediately told everyone how to be.

Well, it isn't just converts that are calling for this, as I posed above, even Metropolitan Hilarion, who in my opinion, will be the next Patriarch, has even called for it, or at least supported it.

Patriarch of where? What Metropolitan Hilarion?

I'll repost it:

Quote

The active participation of lay people in the Liturgy presupposes the possibility of their responding to the exclamations of the priest and hearing the so-called “silent” prayers. In contemporary church practice these prayers, as a rule, are read by the priest silently, which creates an additional barrier between the priest and his flock. More importantly, this habit deprives the faithful since the main point of the Liturgy passes them by. I have heard many arguments in favour of the practice of silent prayers, but none has seemed convincing to me. The so-called “silent” prayers were originally read aloud by the celebrating clergy. I think that in our time the faithful should have the opportunity to hear these prayers in their entirety, not only their concluding subordinate clauses (these signify that the prayers have been read but do not give the least notion of their content: “That being always guarded by Thy might”, “Singing the triumphant hymn, crying…”, “Thine own of Thine own, we offer unto Thee…”). At least the prayer of the anaphora, which summarizes the essence of the Liturgy, should be read aloud.http://orthodoxeurope.org/page/12/1.aspx

It is Metropolitan Hilarion Alfeyev, who currently holds the position that the now-Patriarch Kirill held before the repose of Patriarch Alexis. Due to his amount of accomplishments, position, writing, composing, etc... I could easily see him making Patriarch after +Kirill. (and his theology/church relations is very Orthodox as well!)He's written 42 books in 12 languages, and has done 7 musical compositions, in addition to being the chairman of the Department of External Church Relations for the Russian Church.

In the Antiochian Archdiocese "We praise You..." comes after the audible Anaphora.

In my parish, "We Praise you" comes before the audible Epiclesis.

The only exception is that when Bishop BASIL come to serve the Hierarchical Liturgy, during "We Praise You..." he said the Epiclesis and then immediately prostrated. People we horrified that they somehow were "left out" of this.

In the Antiochian Archdiocese "We praise You..." comes after the audible Anaphora.

In my parish, "We Praise you" comes before the audible Epiclesis.

The only exception is that when Bishop BASIL come to serve the Hierarchical Liturgy, during "We Praise You..." he said the Epiclesis and then immediately prostrated. People we horrified that they somehow were "left out" of this.

Forgive me, I should have said "at my Antiochian parish." At my parish we had a visiting older priest do it as your parish does. He told us that that we shouldn't be changing the order of things when having an audible Epiclesis.

On Sundays my priest usually reads the silent prayers aloud. The people bow at the waist at "take, eat...", "drink of it all of you...", "make this bread...", " and that which is in this cup..." and "changing them by the Holy Spirit." The last three are ended by "Amen" (the last one a triple "Amen") and those in the altar prostrate after the last of the triple "Amen"s. The last three are occuring at the same time as "We Praise Thee" is sung by the choir, which they start immediately after "Thine Own of Thine Own..."

On weekday Liturgies, however, our priest is more likely to say the prayers silently.

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"Hades is not a place, no, but a state of the soul. It begins here on earth. Just so, paradise begins in the soul of a man here in the earthly life. Here we already have contact with the divine..." -St. John, Wonderworker of Shanghai and San Francisco, Homily On the Sunday of Orthodoxy

I never said I want a time machine to take me back anywhere. I just want the liturgy in my tradition (Slavic) to be performed per the sluzhebnik/Служебникъ. Looking at the OCA, ROCOR, Ukrainian, ACROD, Serbian Служебникъ it doesn't call for the silent priest prayers/epiclesis to be read aloud. Sorry, I'm not someone that was welcomed into the family and then came into someone else's house and immediately told everyone how to be.

Well, it isn't just converts that are calling for this, as I posed above, even Metropolitan Hilarion, who in my opinion, will be the next Patriarch, has even called for it, or at least supported it.

Patriarch of where? What Metropolitan Hilarion?

I'll repost it:

Quote

The active participation of lay people in the Liturgy presupposes the possibility of their responding to the exclamations of the priest and hearing the so-called “silent” prayers. In contemporary church practice these prayers, as a rule, are read by the priest silently, which creates an additional barrier between the priest and his flock. More importantly, this habit deprives the faithful since the main point of the Liturgy passes them by. I have heard many arguments in favour of the practice of silent prayers, but none has seemed convincing to me. The so-called “silent” prayers were originally read aloud by the celebrating clergy. I think that in our time the faithful should have the opportunity to hear these prayers in their entirety, not only their concluding subordinate clauses (these signify that the prayers have been read but do not give the least notion of their content: “That being always guarded by Thy might”, “Singing the triumphant hymn, crying…”, “Thine own of Thine own, we offer unto Thee…”). At least the prayer of the anaphora, which summarizes the essence of the Liturgy, should be read aloud.http://orthodoxeurope.org/page/12/1.aspx

It is Metropolitan Hilarion Alfeyev, who currently holds the position that the now-Patriarch Kirill held before the repose of Patriarch Alexis. Due to his amount of accomplishments, position, writing, composing, etc... I could easily see him making Patriarch after +Kirill. (and his theology/church relations is very Orthodox as well!)He's written 42 books in 12 languages, and has done 7 musical compositions, in addition to being the chairman of the Department of External Church Relations for the Russian Church.

My impression overall is that innovations in praxis are OK so long as they arise from human mistakes. If they arise from intentional efforts at reform then they're evil.

Improvement is from the devil, but error is divine?

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Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.A hasty quarrel kindles fire,and urgent strife sheds blood.If you blow on a spark, it will glow;if you spit on it, it will be put out; and both come out of your mouth

So centuries of tradition should be changed in the USA because individuals want to pick and choose it? I know the protestants have taught most people in this country to have worship focus on the "me" but in Orthodoxy it is usually about "us" and not "me" in fact, submission and taking things as they are are normal experineces. But then again I grew up with the old timers before the younger me generation converted in and started demanding things that just make no sense.

If it makes you happier, the Emperor Justinian outlawed the practice of silent prayers, which originated among the Nestorians, btw.

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Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.A hasty quarrel kindles fire,and urgent strife sheds blood.If you blow on a spark, it will glow;if you spit on it, it will be put out; and both come out of your mouth

My impression overall is that innovations in praxis are OK so long as they arise from human mistakes. If they arise from intentional efforts at reform then they're evil.

Improvement is from the devil, but error is divine?

Exactly.

So St. Basil is burning in hell for revising the DL of St. James the Brother of God, and St. John Chrysostom joined him there for revising St. Basil's DL. And the Fathers of the First Ecumenical Council are burning in hell for their intentional efforts at reforming the calculations of Paschalion.

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Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.A hasty quarrel kindles fire,and urgent strife sheds blood.If you blow on a spark, it will glow;if you spit on it, it will be put out; and both come out of your mouth

My impression overall is that innovations in praxis are OK so long as they arise from human mistakes. If they arise from intentional efforts at reform then they're evil.

Improvement is from the devil, but error is divine?

Exactly.

So St. Basil is burning in hell for revising the DL of St. James the Brother of God, and St. John Chrysostom joined him there for revising St. Basil's DL. And the Fathers of the First Ecumenical Council are burning in hell for their intentional efforts at reforming the calculations of Paschalion.

My impression overall is that innovations in praxis are OK so long as they arise from human mistakes. If they arise from intentional efforts at reform then they're evil.

Improvement is from the devil, but error is divine?

Exactly.

So St. Basil is burning in hell for revising the DL of St. James the Brother of God, and St. John Chrysostom joined him there for revising St. Basil's DL. And the Fathers of the First Ecumenical Council are burning in hell for their intentional efforts at reforming the calculations of Paschalion.

You said it.

I surely hope you don't expect to be taken seriously.

Logged

"Hades is not a place, no, but a state of the soul. It begins here on earth. Just so, paradise begins in the soul of a man here in the earthly life. Here we already have contact with the divine..." -St. John, Wonderworker of Shanghai and San Francisco, Homily On the Sunday of Orthodoxy

My impression overall is that innovations in praxis are OK so long as they arise from human mistakes. If they arise from intentional efforts at reform then they're evil.

Improvement is from the devil, but error is divine?

Exactly.

So St. Basil is burning in hell for revising the DL of St. James the Brother of God, and St. John Chrysostom joined him there for revising St. Basil's DL. And the Fathers of the First Ecumenical Council are burning in hell for their intentional efforts at reforming the calculations of Paschalion.

My impression overall is that innovations in praxis are OK so long as they arise from human mistakes. If they arise from intentional efforts at reform then they're evil.

Improvement is from the devil, but error is divine?

Exactly.

So St. Basil is burning in hell for revising the DL of St. James the Brother of God, and St. John Chrysostom joined him there for revising St. Basil's DL. And the Fathers of the First Ecumenical Council are burning in hell for their intentional efforts at reforming the calculations of Paschalion.

You said it.

I surely hope you don't expect to be taken seriously.

Why? Are you taking me seriously?

sarcasm is really hard to pick up on the internet without accompanying smileys or indicators

So centuries of tradition should be changed in the USA because individuals want to pick and choose it? I know the protestants have taught most people in this country to have worship focus on the "me" but in Orthodoxy it is usually about "us" and not "me" in fact, submission and taking things as they are are normal experineces. But then again I grew up with the old timers before the younger me generation converted in and started demanding things that just make no sense.

If it makes you happier, the Emperor Justinian outlawed the practice of silent prayers, which originated among the Nestorians, btw.

So exactly what chariot racing club would I then be for in Constantinople at that time? Ok, I guess then since the response to the Epeclesis is a deacon's prayer and the people are now performing diaconal duties I guess then Mary can incense the church while Peter or Johnny recite the litanies. Why not let Francis or Sue celebrate the proskomedia with the priest while we are at it? It's ok if we do, since according to ANorth American protestant ideals, if it feels good and makes the individual happy who cares about the scred order orf things? I guess its ok to invent things and reassign duties assigned to ordained clergy to the laiyity

My impression overall is that innovations in praxis are OK so long as they arise from human mistakes. If they arise from intentional efforts at reform then they're evil.

Improvement is from the devil, but error is divine?

Exactly.

So St. Basil is burning in hell for revising the DL of St. James the Brother of God, and St. John Chrysostom joined him there for revising St. Basil's DL. And the Fathers of the First Ecumenical Council are burning in hell for their intentional efforts at reforming the calculations of Paschalion.

You said it.

I surely hope you don't expect to be taken seriously.

Why? Are you taking me seriously?

sarcasm is really hard to pick up on the internet without accompanying smileys or indicators

I know. I admit I was partly amused by the prospect of winding some people up. But I'll stop now.

So centuries of tradition should be changed in the USA because individuals want to pick and choose it? I know the protestants have taught most people in this country to have worship focus on the "me" but in Orthodoxy it is usually about "us" and not "me" in fact, submission and taking things as they are are normal experineces. But then again I grew up with the old timers before the younger me generation converted in and started demanding things that just make no sense.

If it makes you happier, the Emperor Justinian outlawed the practice of silent prayers, which originated among the Nestorians, btw.

So exactly what chariot racing club would I then be for in Constantinople at that time? Ok, I guess then since the response to the Epeclesis is a deacon's prayer

Why not let Francis or Sue celebrate the proskomedia with the priest while we are at it? It's ok if we do, since according to ANorth American protestant ideals, if it feels good and makes the individual happy who cares about the scred order orf things?

According to North American Protestant ideals? What North American Protestant ideals? I ask this because your words sound like a tactic I've seen used quite a lot. If you don't like something, smear it by calling it Protestant, even if you can't identify what's so Protestant about it.