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Topic: Pete-zza's Papa John's Clone Pizza (Read 440859 times)

This is my first homemade pizza and my family thinks I'm Wonder Woman of the pizza world. I'd like to thank Pete-zza for all of the work you've put into cloning the Papa John's. Wow! I've been making the 2-day version of the Papa John's clone and we think it's fantastic! I've made it on the 3rd day and it's still wonderful. It took me a few times to get the time/temperature perfected in my persnickety oven, but I think I've fine-tuned it. Here are a few minor modifications I made:

1. I use canola oil and Dakota Maid bread flour because it's what I have on hand.

2. I have to use a water temperature of 90 degrees F to get the final dough temperature at about 81 degrees when I take it out of my Bosch Compact mixer.

3. I've had some problems with getting the dough out of the bowl after it sits out of the fridge to warm up. It's too soft for me to handle. I'm guessing this is because I'm using Dakota Maid bread flour instead of King Arthur? I found that if I put a piece of plastic (sprayed with Pam) on the bottom of the dough bowl and let it extend over the sides, then I can just lift the plastic to get the dough out without wrecking the shape. Once I have it dusted, it's easy to work with.

4. I have to use an oven temperature of 475 degrees with the screen on the second lowest rack for 8 minutes, then 1 1/2 minutes at the top rack under the broiler to get the top and bottom just right. (I burned the crust at 500 degrees.)

5. I'm always two slices of pizza short for my family, so I ordered a 16 inch pizza screen. I used the calculator to get the following dough ingredient amounts for one 16 inch pie using the 2-day method:

This is my first homemade pizza and my family thinks I'm Wonder Woman of the pizza world. I'd like to thank Pete-zza for all of the work you've put into cloning the Papa John's. Wow! I've been making the 2-day version of the Papa John's clone and we think it's fantastic! I've made it on the 3rd day and it's still wonderful. It took me a few times to get the time/temperature perfected in my persnickety oven, but I think I've fine-tuned it. Here are a few minor modifications I made:

1. I use canola oil and Dakota Maid bread flour because it's what I have on hand.

2. I have to use a water temperature of 90 degrees F to get the final dough temperature at about 81 degrees when I take it out of my Bosch Compact mixer.

3. I've had some problems with getting the dough out of the bowl after it sits out of the fridge to warm up. It's too soft for me to handle. I'm guessing this is because I'm using Dakota Maid bread flour instead of King Arthur? I found that if I put a piece of plastic (sprayed with Pam) on the bottom of the dough bowl and let it extend over the sides, then I can just lift the plastic to get the dough out without wrecking the shape. Once I have it dusted, it's easy to work with.

4. I have to use an oven temperature of 475 degrees with the screen on the second lowest rack for 8 minutes, then 1 1/2 minutes at the top rack under the broiler to get the top and bottom just right. (I burned the crust at 500 degrees.)

5. I'm always two slices of pizza short for my family, so I ordered a 16 inch pizza screen. I used the calculator to get the following dough ingredient amounts for one 16 inch pie using the 2-day method:

Sounds like you've done your homework PalePixie. I'm just curious; if you and your family are enjoying your pizzamaking experience, why not get the King Arthur flour and give yourself all the help you can? Not available to you?

As previously reported, Papa John's uses a proprietary high-protein flour that is milled exclusively for them. I estimate its protein content to be somewhere between 13-13.6%. The dough formulation you used was predicated on a higher protein content, somewhere around 14% (which I believe PJ used several years ago). In your case, if you find that the dough is a bit too wet or damp, you can lower either the hydration value or the amount of oil. Also, for the 16" size pizza you want to make you can use a 26-26.25-ounce dough ball weight in the expanded dough calculating tool or, alternatively, a thickness factor of 0.12992-0.133317. I mention these changes since we discovered some time ago (after I posted the version of the PJ clone dough you used) that PJ was using a slightly smaller dough ball weight than I calculated from my analysis and experiments in my standard electric home oven.

It looks like you found a good way to get the dough out of its storage container. My practice is to remove the dough ball from its storage container as soon as I take it out of the refrigerator. I dip the dough ball into flour and then put it on my work surface and cover it with a sheet of plastic wrap so that a "skin" doesn't form on the dough ball. Using this method, the dough ball tempers faster than if it is kept in the storage container because the storage container (which is usually quite cold) has to warm up before the dough ball can.

I'm just curious; if you and your family are enjoying your pizzamaking experience, why not get the King Arthur flour and give yourself all the help you can? Not available to you?

Bob

I have nothing against King Arthur. I like using Dakota Maid because it's produced by my family in my back yard. I live in North Dakota. I would have switched to King Arthur if it would have been necessary.

Peter: thank you for your suggestions on the weight of the dough for the 16 inch pizza. You are wealth of information.

I have nothing against King Arthur. I like using Dakota Maid because it's produced by my family in my back yard. I live in North Dakota. I would have switched to King Arthur if it would have been necessary.

Peter: thank you for your suggestions on the weight of the dough for the 16 inch pizza. You are wealth of information.

Sorry, perhaps I misunderstood your statement... "I use canola oil and Dakota Maid bread flour because it's what I have on hand."Didn't know this flower is produced by your family and thus it must always be "on hand".

Papa John's uses the same dough for its breadsticks as it uses to make its pizzas. However, the amount of dough to use to make the breadsticks depends on the type of breadsticks you want to make. As noted at http://order.papajohns.com/nutrition/2/subMenu.html, Papa John's makes three kinds of breadsticks--the regular Breadsticks, Parmesan Breadsticks and Cheesesticks. For the Breadsticks and Parmesan Breadsticks, PJ uses the same amount of dough, around 20 ounces, as it uses to make its large (14") pizzas. This is confirmed by the PJ Nutrition Facts. For its Cheesesticks, PJ uses the same amount of dough, around 14.5 ounces, as it uses for its medium (12") pizzas. This is also confirmed by the PJ Nutrition Facts.

You should also know that the serving sizes for the three forms of breadsticks and the way they are made are not the same. For example, the PJ Breadsticks and the Parmesan Breadsticks have 10 pieces. The Cheesesticks have 14 pieces, although some PJ stores cut the final product into 16 pieces. The way that the Breadsticks and Parmesan Breadsticks are made can be seen in these YouTube videos:

For the Cheesesticks, see this YouTube video:

Since I started this thread, there has been some new information brought to my attention on the PJ dough. I have also revisited the PJ Nutrition Facts and have done some additional analysis as a result. My suggestion at this point is to use the dough formulation at Reply 5 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,25719.msg259461.html#msg259461 for a 14" PJ clone pizza (or for the Breadsticks and Parmesan Breadsticks), and the dough formulation given at Reply 6 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,25603.msg258178.html#msg258178 for a 12" PJ pizza (or for the Cheesesticks). The two formulations are for a 5-8 day cold fermented dough as was discussed on the first page of this thread. I do not think that the modified formulations as referenced above will produce materially different results than the original version in terms of the crust flavor or texture. Any differences in that respect will be masked by the sauce, cheese and toppings put on the pizza. The crusts will be thinner, however, using the modified formulations. There may also be some flavor and textural differences if the flours suggested in the abovereferenced links to the modified dough formulations are used instead of the KABF.

For those who prefer to use the other modifications of the original formulation set forth in this thread, the other formulations can still be used but they should use the same baker's percents for the oil and sugar (and maybe some minor changes in the hydration values) as noted in the new versions of the dough formulations mentioned above.

Many of the ingredients looked familiar to me. For example, the items underlined above are commonly found in soft margarines. Some brands even have the same preservatives or equivalent ones. It might be possible to replicate the Special Garlic Sauce by adding some butter (or imitation butter flavor or possibly some "butter buds"), garlic powder and fresh garlic (finely pureed) to such a basic soft margarine (e.g., Imperial or Parkay soft). It may also be necessary to add some soybean oil to thin out the margarine, depending on the brand.

For those who are interested in the latest research that I have conducted on the PJ Garlic sauce, see the relevant posts starting at Reply 20 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,25603.msg258314.html#msg258314. Maybe the research will encourage some members, especially those who are intimately familiar with the PJ Garlic sauce and have samples to play around with, will use different garlic forms to see if the margarine products (sticks or spreads) sold at retail in supermarkets can be modified to get a final product that is a credible clone of the PJ Garlic sauce.

For those who are interested in the latest research that I have conducted on the PJ Garlic sauce, see the relevant posts starting at Reply 20 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,25603.msg258314.html#msg258314. Maybe the research will encourage some members, especially those who are intimately familiar with the PJ Garlic sauce and have samples to play around with, will use different garlic forms to see if the margarine products (sticks or spreads) sold at retail in supermarkets can be modified to get a final product that is a credible clone of the PJ Garlic sauce.

Peter

Peter,

I would be interested in playing around to see if I could make a credible clone of the PJ Garlic sauce and also the PJ cheesesticks. I am not offering any cheesesticks at market right now, so that might be something I could offer if I could make credible clones. I have to see first if I can obtain some of the PJ Garlic sauce.

If you are able to achieve that, a monument will be erected in your honor, and people will throw roses and bow to their knees in your presence.

Peter

Lol, I sure don't need what you posted, but would be interested in seeing if a PJ Garlic Sauce clone could be made. I have to go near a Papa John's tomorrow, so I will see if I can purchase the Cheesesticks and some PJ Garlic sauce. I also am thinking about myself in this endeavor. If I am successful I might offer both at market. I don't recall that I ever tasted the PJ Cheesesticks or PJ Garlic sauce.

I know you have researched what goes into the PJ Garlic Sauce, so I shouldn't have too do much work to see if it can be done.

I went to Papa John's later this evening and purchased the side of the cheesesticks and some little tubs of the garlic sauce. I also asked and took photos at Papa John's of the shift manager making the cheesesticks and some pizzas, so I could actually watch the shift manager make the cheesesticks. I then went to the Giant supermarket, and forgot to take the print of what kind of product to try for the garlic sauce. I could not see the photo of what the Parkay Original Squeeze margarine product looked like when you produced the link at http://www.hannaford.com/product/Parkay-Squeeze-Margarine/711225.uts and for Nate at Reply 50 http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,25603.msg259010.html#msg259010 because a pop-up came up to fill in. I don't know if I purchased the right Parkay product at Giant, but it doesn't say original and just says Parkay Squeeze. I didn't see any Parkay product at Giant that said Original.

I had to resort to the Hannaford website because the Parkay website does not list the ingredients in their products, only the Nutrition Facts. Apparently retailers like Hannaford and Walmart and Shoprite require the ingredients lists and that is where they can usually be found. In the case of the Hannaford website, I didn't need to see the Parkay container since I already knew what it looked like. However, I found that if you enter a location where Hannaford has a store, the pop-up you mentioned will disappear. I entered Massachusetts, where I knew Hannaford had several stores, and the pop-up disappeared.