I'm reading a John Connolly tale and came across "as Jimmy liked to say, quoting Oscar Wilde, 'sentimentality is the bank holiday of cynicism.' "

“A sentimentalist is simply one who wants to have the luxury of an emotion without paying for it. We think we can have our emotions for nothing. We cannot. Even the finest and most self-sacrificing emotions have to be paid for. Strangely enough, that is what makes them fine. The intellectual and emotional life of ordinary people is a very contemptible affair. Just as they borrow their ideas from a sort of circulating library of thought—-the Zeitgeist of an age that has no soul—-and send them back soiled at the end of each week, so they always try to get their emotions on credit, and refuse to pay the bill when it comes in. You should pass out of that conception of life. As soon as you have to pay for an emotion you will know its quality, and be the better for such knowledge. And remember that the sentimentalist is always a cynic at heart. Indeed, sentimentality is merely the bank holiday of cynicism.” -Oscar Wilde

I looked up bank holiday, and it is a day off with pay, but I still don't quite catch Wilde's meaning about paying for an emotion.

If one can be taught to believe absurdities, one can commit atrocities. --Voltaire

Tom Palven wrote: I looked up bank holiday, and it is a day off with pay, but I still don't quite catch Wilde's meaning about paying for an emotion.

I have no special knowledge about Oscar Wilde or Bank Holidays (In fact, I thought we here in the USA had them as well and it just meant the Banks were closed while the rest of us worked.) But I have a generic response that applies in more and more situations I'll post after noting:

Wild's point is the opposite of what you query: he says sentimentalists DO NOT PAY for that emotion. I take that to mean what you can see in most discussions: people identifying with the good part of some proposal and not addressing the bad parts of it all...usually like how to pay for it. Its the Pro's Only advocacy of a subject that has Con's as well.

PROS AND CONS TO EVERY POSITION. One that was just on TV was how Freedom of Religion as per Jefferson was really Freedom of Ideas to think as you wish and that applied to the Muslim Religion means we should not discriminate against them. That is the Pro Only or sentimentality of not considering the Con's/Negatives/Cost/Cynicism of inviting in any discordant minority view into a society.

THE SIN OF CONFLATION. Not all sentimentality is the same, not all issues on which it is applied is the same, not all people are the same, there are degrees of conviction to the pros and cons that exist and so forth. To me, that and most other aphorisms are simply label for a general discussion to follow for the maxim to have any value at all. The sentimentality of going to war is very different than the sentimentality of the smell of ginger at Christmas. The pros and cons are different. The associated cynicism is different if it even exists.

All adages are worthy of consideration. Consideration........not acceptance.

Real Name: bobbo the existential pragmatic evangelical anti-theist and Class Warrior.
Asking: What is the most good for the most people?
Sample Issue: Should the Feds provide all babies with free diapers?

(“A sentimentalist is simply one who wants to have the luxury of an emotion without paying for it...And remember that the sentimentalist is always a cynic at heart. Indeed, sentimentality is merely the bank holiday of cynicism.”)

scrmbldggs wrote:I think it means paying nothing = not using the bank/your account?

(“A sentimentalist is simply one who wants to have the luxury of an emotion without paying for it...And remember that the sentimentalist is always a cynic at heart. Indeed, sentimentality is merely the bank holiday of cynicism.”)

But I don't see why apparently a sentimentalist is a cynic trying to get warm emotions for free? Maybe something will jell in my sleep. And so far I don't see why John Connolly thought that was worth quoting.

I'll take another look at in in context.

If one can be taught to believe absurdities, one can commit atrocities. --Voltaire

Tom Palven wrote: But I don't see why apparently a sentimentalist is a cynic trying to get warm emotions for free? Maybe something will jell in my sleep. And so far I don't see why John Connolly thought that was worth quoting.

I'll take another look at in in context.

Yeah, I agree. You can make it make sense with a small contextual change. If and when a cynic is sentimental, THEN he is trying to get warm emotions for free. As stated....lots of different sentiments and people being sentimental are not cynical at all. some are.

Its how you get a reputation in the Salon for being a clever wit. Free Drinks. Loose Women.......or in Wilde's case.........but it would be cynical to think that Wilde was cynical just to get laid.

Real Name: bobbo the existential pragmatic evangelical anti-theist and Class Warrior.
Asking: What is the most good for the most people?
Sample Issue: Should the Feds provide all babies with free diapers?

scrmbldggs wrote:I think it means paying nothing = not using the bank/your account?

(“A sentimentalist is simply one who wants to have the luxury of an emotion without paying for it...And remember that the sentimentalist is always a cynic at heart. Indeed, sentimentality is merely the bank holiday of cynicism.”)

But I don't see why apparently a sentimentalist is a cynic trying to get warm emotions for free? Maybe something will jell in my sleep. And so far I don't see why John Connolly thought that was worth quoting.

I'll take another look at in in context.

It's like Trump expecting, demanding and proclaiming loyalty without really giving any in return...

I'm reading a John Connolly tale and came across "as Jimmy liked to say, quoting Oscar Wilde, 'sentimentality is the bank holiday of cynicism.' "

“A sentimentalist is simply one who wants to have the luxury of an emotion without paying for it. We think we can have our emotions for nothing. We cannot. Even the finest and most self-sacrificing emotions have to be paid for. Strangely enough, that is what makes them fine. The intellectual and emotional life of ordinary people is a very contemptible affair. Just as they borrow their ideas from a sort of circulating library of thought—-the Zeitgeist of an age that has no soul—-and send them back soiled at the end of each week, so they always try to get their emotions on credit, and refuse to pay the bill when it comes in. You should pass out of that conception of life. As soon as you have to pay for an emotion you will know its quality, and be the better for such knowledge. And remember that the sentimentalist is always a cynic at heart. Indeed, sentimentality is merely the bank holiday of cynicism.” -Oscar Wilde

I looked up bank holiday, and it is a day off with pay, but I still don't quite catch Wilde's meaning about paying for an emotion.

Perhaps Wilde's quote came on the heels of an opium-absinthe bender. People often believe they're incredibly wise when they're high AF. You can have an emotion without paying for it in personal experience, after all; it's called 'empathy.'

Consider the context. He's clearly saying that sentimentality is a lesser form of cynicism. Therefore, the implication must be that a bank holiday is a lesser form of holiday.

I asked my father for more information on bank holidays, and he tells me this: "Legally, banks could only be closed for two consecutive days unless there was a legal holiday. Bank holidays were days the bank chose to make legal holidays in order to be closed for more than two days consecutively." In other words, they're holidays only as a convenience, and not in the original sense of holy days.

Or not at all in just flapping his lips, high on absinthe, or scoring social points for meaningless word play. Favorite movie on point is Gene Wilders silimar word play in "The Corsican Brothers." Good movie.

Gord wrote: Consider the context. He's clearly saying that sentimentality is a lesser form of cynicism.

Define lesser.

Gord wrote: Therefore, the implication must be that a bank holiday is a lesser form of holiday.

No matter what lesser means, it doesn't affect what bank holiday means. This is the fallacy of the undistributed middle...or something like that. Middle assumptions not stated.

Real Name: bobbo the existential pragmatic evangelical anti-theist and Class Warrior.
Asking: What is the most good for the most people?
Sample Issue: Should the Feds provide all babies with free diapers?

Real Name: bobbo the existential pragmatic evangelical anti-theist and Class Warrior.
Asking: What is the most good for the most people?
Sample Issue: Should the Feds provide all babies with free diapers?

TP: do you have a meaning for sentimentality being an emotion without paying for it? Your question is compound, so specificity may help focus the discuss. As stated: I think Wilde is WRONG when describing sentimentalists as cynics. Not to repeat myself.........it is harder to understand something that is more wrong than right. Having thought about it some more myself........I think it more accurate to say that sentimentalists are more lazy than anything else. Less curious...more accepting any popular trope of the day. Thats because I'm a cynic..............

Real Name: bobbo the existential pragmatic evangelical anti-theist and Class Warrior.
Asking: What is the most good for the most people?
Sample Issue: Should the Feds provide all babies with free diapers?

bobbo_the_Pragmatist wrote:TP: do you have a meaning for sentimentality being an emotion without paying for it?

No, I don't know the meaning and don't know if I think he's right or wrong since I still can't figure out what he meant.

Btw, I'm going to throw out the book by John Connolly (The Lovers), where he quotes Wilde, when I'm done with it, because it has devolved into total nuttiness about angels and demons. I think it came with a bunch of books from my stepmother, but I wouldn't pass it on to anyone else.

If one can be taught to believe absurdities, one can commit atrocities. --Voltaire

Always a pity when a book/movie/art starts out with interest and then fails. Robin Hood, Prince of Thieves the movie with Costner and Morgan Freeman is like that. Started off with potential........now nothing but mindless improbable senseless "action". Arrows missed the good guys back then just as bullets do now.................

Real Name: bobbo the existential pragmatic evangelical anti-theist and Class Warrior.
Asking: What is the most good for the most people?
Sample Issue: Should the Feds provide all babies with free diapers?

bobbo_the_Pragmatist wrote:Always a pity when a book/movie/art starts out with interest and then fails. Robin Hood, Prince of Thieves the movie with Costner and Morgan Freeman is like that. Started off with potential........now nothing but mindless improbable senseless "action". Arrows missed the good guys back then just as bullets do now.................

Catering for those who after getting through 3 litres of 8% cider are in a state of not being able to follow the movie plot and seeing the screen in double anyway.

I watched that movie about a week or so before my first ever batch of H.Cider was ready to sample. But, Apple Drunk or sober, my complaint was not about the plot but rather the mindless actions. The PLOT of Robbing Hood is well known..and followed closely by the flick. Of note, the Costner remake still goes for that Errol Flynn light and merry flim flam but goes disjointedly heavy handed on the violence and gore.....or maybe not quite that but just killing people (repeatedly) to show how evil the Sheriff was. Overkill, not to abuse the notion.

Real Name: bobbo the existential pragmatic evangelical anti-theist and Class Warrior.
Asking: What is the most good for the most people?
Sample Issue: Should the Feds provide all babies with free diapers?

How about letting Oscar himself explain it ...
“A sentimentalist is simply one who wants to have the luxury of an emotion without paying for it. We think we can have our emotions for nothing. We cannot. Even the finest and most self-sacrificing emotions have to be paid for. Strangely enough, that is what makes them fine. The intellectual and emotional life of ordinary people is a very contemptible affair. Just as they borrow their ideas from a sort of circulating library of thought—-the Zeitgeist of an age that has no soul—-and send them back soiled at the end of each week, so they always try to get their emotions on credit, and refuse to pay the bill when it comes in. You should pass out of that conception of life. As soon as you have to pay for an emotion you will know its quality, and be the better for such knowledge. And remember that the sentimentalist is always a cynic at heart. Indeed, sentimentality is merely the bank holiday of cynicism.”
... is the full quotation.

As a bank holiday was one which affected lots more people and businesses than just bankers and banks, it was (and still is) regarded as an enforced (but very welcome) change from the norm - a time when you could do something which, normally, you could not do. A cynic would not, normally, be regarded as a sentimentalist, but could indulge in sentimentalism on the odd lazy occasion and be forgiven.

Poodle wrote:How about letting Oscar himself explain it ...
“A sentimentalist is simply one who wants to have the luxury of an emotion without paying for it. We think we can have our emotions for nothing. We cannot. Even the finest and most self-sacrificing emotions have to be paid for. Strangely enough, that is what makes them fine. The intellectual and emotional life of ordinary people is a very contemptible affair. Just as they borrow their ideas from a sort of circulating library of thought—-the Zeitgeist of an age that has no soul—-and send them back soiled at the end of each week, so they always try to get their emotions on credit, and refuse to pay the bill when it comes in. You should pass out of that conception of life. As soon as you have to pay for an emotion you will know its quality, and be the better for such knowledge. And remember that the sentimentalist is always a cynic at heart. Indeed, sentimentality is merely the bank holiday of cynicism.”
... is the full quotation.

As a bank holiday was one which affected lots more people and businesses than just bankers and banks, it was (and still is) regarded as an enforced (but very welcome) change from the norm - a time when you could do something which, normally, you could not do. A cynic would not, normally, be regarded as a sentimentalist, but could indulge in sentimentalism on the odd lazy occasion and be forgiven.

1. You probably know from my comments at this forum that I am not just skeptical about religon and politics, but cynical by the above definition.

2. Coming home on a plane the othe night I watched Murder on the Orient Express, and had tears running down my cheeks when hard-boiled Hercule Poirot turned his back on the criminal justice system and allowed a bunch of murders to walk.

3. I think I understand it now, too.

While Agatha Christie and Poirot didn't restore my faith in prevalent human nature theses days , I guess I was acting sentimentally and thus taking a bank holiday from cynicism.

If one can be taught to believe absurdities, one can commit atrocities. --Voltaire

I've seen that Poirot episode but don't remember the details. Whats "new" to me is evidently the person murdered on the train in some way "deserved it"? If that is true, well, no bank holiday is required. ALL the other murders in the Christie/Poirot universe were evil do'ers..... and treated appropriately, as are the murderers on the Orient Express?

or do you mean something else?

Real Name: bobbo the existential pragmatic evangelical anti-theist and Class Warrior.
Asking: What is the most good for the most people?
Sample Issue: Should the Feds provide all babies with free diapers?

Tom Palven wrote:I looked up bank holiday, and it is a day off with pay, but I still don't quite catch Wilde's meaning about paying for an emotion.

What I get from it is this:

When you think dragons are sacred, that's the sentiment.

When you're starving and the only meat available is a gravely wounded dragon, you're either going to pay - and starve - or find some way to weasel out of paying, justify it to yourself, eat the dragon anyway, and live, thusly becoming the sentimentalist rather than someone who genuinely embodies the sentiment.

"Oh, he was really going to die anyway."

"Well, I do think dragons are sacred, but I believe in survival of the fittest first, you see. What's a dragon to his species who gets wounded like that? I'm actually advancing my ideology by putting him out of his misery."

"Of course I think they're sacred, but life is sacred too! I never meant anyone to die over it!"

Just... STAHP. Rubbish, all.

All that matters was whether you paid... or took a day off from your sentiment.

Wilde was right. I find him deeply correct. Thank you for that beautiful quote.

Only bad emotions have a cost and the need for a holiday. Most emotions are "good" and actually provide income.

As usual: conflated non-think failing to make appropriate distinctions wrapped in the dishonesty/quick throw away wit of false equivalency.

Just Look.

Real Name: bobbo the existential pragmatic evangelical anti-theist and Class Warrior.
Asking: What is the most good for the most people?
Sample Issue: Should the Feds provide all babies with free diapers?

bobbo_the_Pragmatist wrote:Only bad emotions have a cost and the need for a holiday. Most emotions are "good" and actually provide income.

As a whole, yes. For example, treating other people with a certain degree of respect. Then they treat you with that respect in return and everyone is better off.

If you make exceptions, though, when you can get away with it... you're even better off. You can take that one time when you're going to have to take a really big hit to do what you know you should, and just suck it up, or you can justify and avoid paying.

The key here is that the universally followed rules (derived from emotions like sympathy) provide the most income. The cheaters destroy at least a portion of that for immediate self-advantage.

You'll have to give a specific example as the general description is too vague for me. ………. Could it be just me? for instance: you don't treat others with respect for the return but rather that is what gives yourself the most pleasure/comfort/reward. Unless you are a psychopath or libertarian.

Real Name: bobbo the existential pragmatic evangelical anti-theist and Class Warrior.
Asking: What is the most good for the most people?
Sample Issue: Should the Feds provide all babies with free diapers?