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Boycs wrote:Warne says England are in prime position ahead of the first test following the selection of the Aussie team

Leaving out maxwell has got to be a smart decison though

Warne also predicted Roland-Jones would be a danger this summer, a kiss of death if ever I've seen one. As a Commentator Warne makes a great Leg Spinner. Just can't stay out of the limelight for 5 mins.

They all look good in English conditions but on the flat tracks that will be served up this summer it will be a different story.

Heh - this sums up almost all leading England bowlers since Botham played.

That said, TRJ wasn't hooping it sideways or nipping it skiddishly around violently in England like Philander was. He gets consistent nibble but he was bowling in the channel with good and variable bounce off a length in the channel where noone else, not even South African bowlers were. These were'nt cross seamer deliveries neither but wobbly straight seam presentation. I guess you could say he bowls into the pitch like Morkel, slower but he has arguably better control and inarguably a much better seam release, which is typically straight but wobbly.

Would he have succeeded like Tremlett? Injury has taken away any certainty, but I do recall writing on here in his debut season that I fancied his chances in Straya (more than say Anderson's).

Last edited by Paddles on Mon Nov 20, 2017 3:18 am, edited 6 times in total.

"Your inclination to assume and contradict is typical of Narcissism which is nothing about being pretty like the Narcissus fable."

Read my post again, its critical definitely, but agenda driven? Again you're a slave to ad hominem or you believe an alternative is almost certain - like him successfully bowling a suffocating Hazlewood type off stump line strictly in the channel? You really think Cummins has that in his radar without the wide looseners? No - I bet ya his role as previously wil be to bowl fast and intimidate according to Waugh and Lehman. Want me to find urls for you? Completely with you on Cummins Paddles. The plan is to have Cummo and Starc fire up from one end while Haze bowl his pressure building, suffocating, make the batsman play a shot when he should not, line and length. I see Cummo with the real intimidating pace to worry the bejus out of the Poms. So when he forces Root and Cookie back on the stumps then Starc comes in with his full searing, swinging yorkers.

Last edited by baggygreenmania on Mon Nov 20, 2017 1:50 am, edited 1 time in total.

not sure why they'd pick Paine and BancroftI thought Bancroft was a keeper. Is he not a good a keeper?

I dont have a problem with Paine selection otherwise.Contradicting yourself there. One reason they have picked Paine. He is the best technical keeper in the country.. always has been..he and Hartley. His form with the bat is secondary. Bancroft's elevation to a Baggy Green is well overdue. He was chosen to debut two years ago before the Bangladesh tour was abandoned. He has blasted 600+ runs in his past 4 FC matches, incl. two doubles.. one here and one in England. He could not have been left out as his form is too irrestible.

baggygreenmania wrote:not sure why they'd pick Paine and BancroftI thought Bancroft was a keeper. Is he not a good a keeper?

I dont have a problem with Paine selection otherwise.Contradicting yourself there. One reason they have picked Paine. He is the best technical keeper in the country.. always has been..he and Hartley. His form with the bat is secondary. Bancroft's elevation to a Baggy Green is well overdue. He was chosen to debut two years ago before the Bangladesh tour was abandoned. He has blasted 600+ runs in his past 4 FC matches, incl. two doubles.. one here and one in England. He could not have been left out as his form is too irrestible.

no contradictionmaybe comprehension fail on your behalf

I would pick Paine, but if they're going to pick another keeper then it'd make sense to play him as keeper and select another batsman...unless he's a poor keeper

Agreed for opening test, but I additionally think that Renshaw has not nailed his spot down yet and needs some scores in tests, if he fails and a few big scores by Shield opener could see a change. But so far his home tesr record is strong vs Pak and Safrica.

"Your inclination to assume and contradict is typical of Narcissism which is nothing about being pretty like the Narcissus fable."

Baggers and Katto, gentlemen; as much I am tempted to pour petrol on the flames, it appears to me that you're both valid and talking past each other a tad.

Paine by all accounts is the much better keeper and a useful bat. Bancroft is not always the first choice keeper for WA and has less than a full time keeper reputation in the red ball format. He didn't keep in his first shield game of the summer for instance. He is however scoring a truck load of runs as an opening bat.

So you're both making valid points.

On these facts, there is a part time keeper, or better, keeper keeping for one state make a tonne of runs in Bancroft, and a technically proficient and gifted keeper in Paine playing as a specialist bat in another state.

Katto, I do suggest one further caveat argument to you tho, when the 6 best batsmen in Australia includes Shaun Marsh, who is significantly better as a bat than Tim Paine is to Bancroft as a keeper? Even if Bancroft was average or mediocre with the gloves or better but significantly not as good as Paine? Would you take a dropped catch or missed stumping for Maxwell's inclusion? Is Maxwell worth so much more than Paine's batting and superior glove work?

Katto, I don't disagree with your theory per se, it is sound and logical as you presented it, but when applied to the actual facts, its not as though there are a stack of proven batsmen waiting in the wings all with great claims to be in the Australian team right now to tinker so as to improve.

Further, an opening bat keeper in tests is quite unusual. But hey, if he's doing at FC, that is meant to be the preparation ground for the big show after all.

Last edited by Paddles on Mon Nov 20, 2017 4:41 am, edited 1 time in total.

"Your inclination to assume and contradict is typical of Narcissism which is nothing about being pretty like the Narcissus fable."

Paddles wrote:Baggers and Katto, gentlemen; as much I am tempted to pour petrol on the flames, it appears to me that you're both valid and talking past each other a tad.

Paine by all accounts is the much better keeper and a useful bat. Bancroft is not always the first choice keeper for WA and has less than a full time keeper reputation in the red ball format. He didn't keep in his first shield game of the summer for instance. He is however scoring a truck load of runs as an opening bat.

So you're both making valid points.

Katto, I do suggest one further caveat argument to you tho, when the 6 best batsmen in Australia includes Shaun Marsh, who is significantly better as a bat than Tim Paine is to Bancroft as a keeper? Even if Bancroft was average or mediocre with the gloves or better but significantly not as good as Paine? Would you take a dropped catch or missed stumping for Maxwell's inclusion? Is Maxwell worth so much more than Paine's batting and superior glove work?

Katto, I don't disagree with your theory per se, it is sound and logical as you presented it, but when applied to the actual facts, its not as though there are a stack of proven batsmen waiting in the wings all with great claims to be in the Australian team right now to tinker so as to improve.

This is why I asked if Bancroft is a poor keeper. If he's decent there's no reason to play two keepers when there are better batsmen than Tim Paine around the country.

If you want to get technical we actually have 3 keepers in the test squad. We should be playing the 6 best batsman in Australia if they are all Keepers so what. Fortunately both Bancroft & Handscomb are also very good Fielders especially in catching positions.

Paddles wrote:Baggers and Katto, gentlemen; as much I am tempted to pour petrol on the flames, it appears to me that you're both valid and talking past each other a tad.

Paine by all accounts is the much better keeper and a useful bat. Bancroft is not always the first choice keeper for WA and has less than a full time keeper reputation in the red ball format. He didn't keep in his first shield game of the summer for instance. He is however scoring a truck load of runs as an opening bat.

So you're both making valid points.

Katto, I do suggest one further caveat argument to you tho, when the 6 best batsmen in Australia includes Shaun Marsh, who is significantly better as a bat than Tim Paine is to Bancroft as a keeper? Even if Bancroft was average or mediocre with the gloves or better but significantly not as good as Paine? Would you take a dropped catch or missed stumping for Maxwell's inclusion? Is Maxwell worth so much more than Paine's batting and superior glove work?

Katto, I don't disagree with your theory per se, it is sound and logical as you presented it, but when applied to the actual facts, its not as though there are a stack of proven batsmen waiting in the wings all with great claims to be in the Australian team right now to tinker so as to improve.

This is why I asked if Bancroft is a poor keeper. If he's decent there's no reason to play two keepers when there are better batsmen than Tim Paine around the country.

baggy seems to be having difficulty r e a d i n g

Katto, read his post again without the contradiction sentence that has offended you.

Baggers answered you that Paine is the best keeper in the country, thus better than Bancroft, without labelling Bancroft as "not a good keeper" as you directly asked for. At best you got a comparative answer, and at worst you got a counter selection theory of 6 best batsmen and best keeper.

"Your inclination to assume and contradict is typical of Narcissism which is nothing about being pretty like the Narcissus fable."

I haven't seen enough of Bancrofts Keeoing to know if he is a good keeper or not but he would lack experience keeping to a quality Spinner on a Turning, Wearing Wicket and that is probably what cost him the Keeping spot.

Mick180461 wrote:I haven't seen enough of Bancrofts Keeoing to know if he is a good keeper or not but he would lack experience keeping to a quality Spinner on a Turning, Wearing Wicket and that is probably what cost him the Keeping spot.

What about the fact he opens the batting? This would be highly unusual in test cricket. Flower batted high in the order, so did Sanga and Tilikiratne at times. But opening? Stewart would have kept and opened before I guess. But he had a problem with spin bowling but no problem with seamers, so scored better as an opener. Who else?

Being unusual is no problem for me if its logically a good idea (and the particular player is upto the task). But the idea against it is exhaustion. Australia gets pretty hot. I can just imagine the critics piling it on to CA selectors if he got a duck after keeping for 2 days. I can just imagine Chappel, Taylor and Healy ad nauseam saying 6 or 7 is where the keeper should bat so as to have time to recover before batting and what a step up test cricket is from first class. Not that these are necessarily good reasons to not implement it, but do all want to gamble with that kind of possible career ending criticism in the face of "its just common sense" criticism from a comfy selectors job? Personally I like novel out of the box thinking if logically founded, but then again I don't blame the new 6 hitting on big bats. But I know less about Bancroft's physical and mental endurance levels than I do that batsmen could range hit in practice to see if they can clear a boundary or not, but First Class is meant to be the testing and breeding ground for tests. On the facts, I'd have to say he's more than a chance of being upto it. But I still think he his opener spot would cause a spot of doubt in at least one selector's mind.

[Edit] I nosied to Alec Stewarts history, he did it once in Kolkata and Kingston, and the remaining times he did opened and kept were in England. He didn't do it all that often in his 130 plus tests.

News out today that the final Aust-Eng ODI will be played in front of 60,000 at the new Perth Stadium. It will be opening day for the Stadium, they wanted to play the Perth Test there but it wasn't ready in time.The Stadiums main users will be the 2 Perth AFL Football teams over Winter but will be available for Cricket during the Summer. The WACA will be modernized in comming years with a lower capacity but better facilities.

Mick180461 wrote:News out today that the final Aust-Eng ODI will be played in front of 60,000 at the new Perth Stadium. It will be opening day for the Stadium, they wanted to play the Perth Test there but it wasn't ready in time.The Stadiums main users will be the 2 Perth AFL Football teams over Winter but will be available for Cricket during the Summer. The WACA will be modernized in comming years with a lower capacity but better facilities.

will likely be the only ODI played in front of a sizable crowd as Australia has fallen out of love with the format

I get a feeling keeping wont play much of a part in this series as spin wont play much of a part.AO will be a green top for the pink ball farce, while the other venues will be roads with barely any turn.

Ali and Greig? Not sure, eras withstanding, how to make that comparison Boycs.

Greigs a lot taller Boycs to exploit some Aussie pitch bounce.

Vettorri is tallish, he could hold up an end but not snag a bag of wickets.

Pretty sure Aus has seen Ashwin and/or Jadeja rested during a series.

See how the Safrican went last year. Santner found no holes the year before. Don't even think leggie Yasir had the happiest tour last year.

Ali's best hope is if he has mastered the over spinner lately like Lyon, cos if he hasn't - and even leggie Warne says it is incredibly difficult for offies to master - he may lack any tools to get assistance in Aus conditions. The dip and bounce on bouncy Aus wickets is Lyon's best friend to get what appears to be like variable bounce to a batsman.

Still - there's Sydney for hope and Adelaide grass - if it seams, it spins.

"Your inclination to assume and contradict is typical of Narcissism which is nothing about being pretty like the Narcissus fable."

Australia has added Glenn "big show" Maxwell to their squad as cover for Dave Warner who has a stiff neck but is expected at this stage to play. If Warner was to fail to come up fit, Marsh would move up to open and Maxwell bat 6.

Yeah - England are likely to go with his experience over debuting Overton. After 3 tests, 2 wickets at 114 runs each, Ball is lucky his experience counted for and not against him. Overton is surely the better bat.

"Your inclination to assume and contradict is typical of Narcissism which is nothing about being pretty like the Narcissus fable."

Mick180461 wrote:I haven't seen enough of Bancrofts Keeoing to know if he is a good keeper or not but he would lack experience keeping to a quality Spinner on a Turning, Wearing Wicket and that is probably what cost him the Keeping spot.

Bancroft open innings with Warner so he is selected on his opening batsman’s skills

bolero wrote:I don't rate Ali highly. He is suspect against the short stuff. As a bowler, he will get exposed one of these matches.

If his bowling only gets exposed in one match, the tour will be an unexpected success for him as a bowler and arguably place him in the top echelon of spinners in the world.

His batting to me often always seems suspect to any bowling threat, but on some days, his days, before too long he passes 50 and then starts appearing far more accomplished when he then gets on top of the bowling and keeps the scoreboard ticking over. He's not very aesthetically appealing to me as a batsman bar his cover drives, but I've come to appreciate his leg side flicks and glances, and his prods for singles; but he has many effective innings under his belt, some crucial ones too. His odi SR of 108 as against a test sr of 53 displays he has vast gears to his batting tempo.

He hooks with a fair degree of success in England. But Aussie grounds have much longer boundaries if he wants to take fine leg on; albeit the bowlers and pitches are faster to help the ball travel.

All that said, if he goes all 5 tests without getting rested; either he or the team isn't a complete disapointment.

I said before I think he is the possible dark horse with the bat. It would not surprise me for him to play a few vital 50s or higher. Mind you, neither would a 5-0 Aussie whalloping of England neither.

Last edited by Paddles on Wed Nov 22, 2017 2:48 pm, edited 2 times in total.

"Your inclination to assume and contradict is typical of Narcissism which is nothing about being pretty like the Narcissus fable."