The first ingredient in this dog food lists chicken. Although it is a quality item, raw chicken contains about 80% water. After cooking, most of that moisture is lost… reducing the meat content to just a fraction of its original weight.

After processing, this item would probably account for a smaller part of the total content of the finished product.

Which brings us to brewers rice… the second and (more likely) the dominant ingredient in this dog food.

Brewers rice represents the small grain fragments left over after milling whole rice.

The ninth ingredient is oatmeal… a whole-grain product made from coarsely ground oats. Oatmeal is naturally rich in B-vitamins, fiber and is also (unlike many other grains) gluten-free.

The tenth ingredient includes fish meal. Because it is considered a meat concentrate, fish meal contains almost 300% more protein than fresh fish itself.

Unfortunately, this particular item is anonymous. Because various fish contain different types of fats, we would have preferred to have known the source species.

Fish meal is commonly made from the by-products of commercial fish operations.

What’s more, the controversial chemical ethoxyquin is frequently used as a preservative in fish meals.

But because it’s usually added to the raw fish before processing, the chemical does not have to be reported to consumers.

We find no public assurances from the company this product is ethoxyquin-free.

Without knowing more, and based upon this fish meal’s location on the list of ingredients, we would expect to find only a trace of ethoxyquin in this product.

Animal digest is a chemically hydrolyzed concoction of unspecified body parts… from unspecified animals. Animal digest is usually sprayed onto the surface of a dry kibble to improve its taste.

From here, the list goes on to include a number of other items.

But to be realistic, ingredients located this far down the list (other than nutritional supplements) are not likely to have much of an effect on the overall rating of this product.

With four notable exceptions…

First, garlic oil may be a controversial item. We say “may be” here because we are not certain of the oil’s chemical relationship to raw garlic itself. Although the majority of experts favor the ingredient for its numerous health benefits, garlic (in rare cases) has been linked to Heinz body anemia in dogs.1

However, the limited professional literature we surveyed provided no definitive warnings regarding the use of garlic… especially in small amounts (as it is here).

Next, we find no mention of probiotics… friendly microorganisms applied to the surface of the kibble after processing.

Thirdly, the minerals listed here do not appear to be chelated. And that can make them more difficult to absorb. Non-chelated minerals are usually associated with lower quality dog foods.

And lastly, this Purina One recipe also contains menadione… a controversial form of vitamin K linked to liver toxicity, allergies and the abnormal break-down of red blood cells.

Purina One Dry Dog Food
The Bottom Line

Judging by its ingredients alone, Purina One Dry Dog Food appears to be a below-average kibble.

But ingredient quality by itself cannot tell the whole story. We still need to estimate the product’s meat content before determining a final rating.

The descriptions and analyses expressed in this and every article on this website represent the views and opinions of the author.

The Dog Food Advisor does not test dog food products.

We rely almost entirely on the integrity of the information posted by each company on its website. As such, the accuracy of every review is directly dependent upon the quality of the test results from any specific batch of food a company chooses to publish.

Although it's our goal to ensure all the information on this website is correct, we cannot guarantee its completeness or its accuracy; nor can we commit to ensuring all the material is kept up-to-date on a daily basis.

Each review is offered in good faith and has been designed to help you make a more informed decision when buying dog food.

However, due to the biological uniqueness of every animal, none of our ratings are intended to suggest feeding a particular product will result in a specific dietary response or health benefit for your pet.

I have fed my dogs Purina One for years. The last bag that I bought smelled bad. It had a real strong odor which has prompted me to explore other dog foods. I am going to try Evolve. It has gotten good reviews and it seems like a good premium food.

Gayna

My 2 dogs and cat all are raw fed and they never have any health problems or digestive problems they are 2 massive german shepherds and have healthy teeth bones an shiny coats what more could u want for your pets.

Gayna

Why not try the raw feeding it is all natural and as a major dog and cat food provider you should surely consider it

brian

just purchsed a large bag of purina one smart blend lamb and rice a week or 2 before christmas , after i recently opened the bag and strted useing it my wifes dog got diarrea and now my dog has it , not sure if its the food as ive used the brand for several years and its the only one they will eat or something they got out of the trash in the kitchen garbage but currious as to if it could be a bad batch of food and if any one else has been recently experinceing any issues with the same brand of dog food they recently purchased ?

Lab lover

Don’t be fooled. Dog food companies know that shiny coats and normal poop is how we judge a good dog food so they add ingredients that will make the coat shiny coat and “healthy” looking poop.

Bill

Having the same problems. Have fed my dogs this brand for years, must have gotten a bad batch. many complaints on-
line for this product in 2013. No FDA recall though.

Pattyvaughn

This is not Purina. This is the Dog Food Advisor.

Dora

has there been any recall on your dog food? I use maximum nutrition purina one dog adult good.. For I am having problems with my dogs and they are having diareah..

Cyndi

Are you serious? I feel sorry for your dogs then.

mike berger

This is all garbage…There are too many variables to try and judge a food by ingredients. The only way to objectively judge a dogfood is by PERFORMANCE. Overall health, stamina, coat,cleanup e.t.c.

Pattyvaughn

Where do you get your information?

Melissaandcrew

There are better quality foods for the same or less. Look at HDMs post. Also inquire about frequent buyer programs. Most are buy 10 or 12 get one free. Some I know of are Propac, nutrisource,, HI TEK. All three are decent foods at a lower price point.

Hound Dog Mom

Why not try to improve what’s not broken?

patluvlabs

Nutro killed 2 of my friends dogs – BEWARE!! They have recalls all the time, but don’t publicize them.

patluvlabs

We had our oldest lab put down last year, 2 weeks shy of 16, and she ate either Purina One or Pro Plan all her life. I’m reading this, but thinking, don’t fix what’s not broken.

Iloveblacklabs

Now my dog is chewing her paws and my mom will not do a other dog food because we did a lot of other foods before and the goods ones are so much money so where on the 7+ my dog is 7 hope you can give me some good but not so much money dog foods thanks

beaglemom

Yes, please consider Purina One Beyond! She may seem fine now but this food will contribute nothing to her long term health.

Hound Dog Mom

If your dogs seem to be doing well on Purina One, Purina One Beyond would be worth a try. The ingredients are a bit higher quality so you may find that your dogs do even better on this formula.

Iloveblacklabs

My dog Dixie just Loves this Food and a great cheaper than what we were paying before and shes loves it too and no problems with it so were saying with it!

Angwha

I dont know why anyone would. Feed their dog a food with by byproducts and u should look yourself ive found people who work at pet stores still dont know what they are talking about. Ots sad when they argue and u have to take them in their own store and prove them wrong by products are not good

Fordogtraining

NO, a 3 star rating means it is not optimal and not a good choice. This rating system is on being biologic appropriate not on a case by case basis.

HOpe this helps. Of course, every dog and their stomach is different– a three-star rated food here might be a five star to an individual dog. Just gotta see what works.

Melissaandcrew

dsw500-

I think we would all like for the bags of dog food to be bigger : ) While I can understand your concerns, I don’t feel that dog food caters to a luxury industry. There are plenty of foods that are lower priced still available on the market today, and more appear every day.

Personally, I do not have a problem with some corn from time to time in my dogs diet-therefore, i would go with ProPac over the Purina line. Its 33lbs for $28.99 and each bag has a $2 coupon inside-plus, buy 10, get one free-you can’t beat it for the price point. They also make a 44lb bag. There are many others under $50 a bag as well.

For me, I tend to want preservative free, chemical free, and as fresh as possible. I also want China free, and a company w/out a huge list of recalls on its resume. For that ,I understand that I will have to pay more as it costs more to take the “non cheap” route. I would lower my dog food standard if financially I were unable to maintain it, before giving up any of my dogs. However, I would NOT get another dog, if that meant lowering the quality of food for my existing ones.

Congrats on the new adoptee and good luck in choosing a food!

Melissaandcrew

Pittlover-

Are you sure you are not using Proplan salmon/rice for sensitive stomachs? I have to say that in the past, I had excellent luck/results with it for rescues that have had issues when they first came in.

dsw500

I’ve been feeding my two dogs (one German Shepherd and one Lab) this food for about six months. I used to use a very expensive brand when I had only one dog, but I decided it was better to use a less expensive food rather than not be able to rescue another dog. One of the problems with dog food today is that it has become a luxury industry that caters to high end and very expensive food. Bags used to be 40 lbs as the standard and are mostly 30 or 31 lbs now, but the price is mostly around $50 a bag. I wish someone woud produce a reasonably priced, good quality food that would allow more people to rescue more dogs. I just found this site and will look to see if there is a better choice in a price that I can stomach. Thank you for the info.

Pittylover

You can be displeased all you want. My dog has colitis of some sort. It got to the point I was feeding her plain boiled chicken and rice and she was STILL vomiting. She seems to be able to keep the sensitive systems stuff down. Call it garbage if you want, but it’s garbage that is saving my dog from wasting away.

Pittylover

Actually, the sensitive systems brand that is under this heading is entirely different. In fact, it is the only thing our dog can stomach. She’s had some problems with colitis the past few months, and after trying several veterinary quality dog foods that she either wouldn’t eat or threw right back up, we tried this. She actually eats it AND doesn’t throw it back up. She had lost 15 pounds in less than a month and is now back up to a healthy weight after eating this for two weeks. Say what you like, but results matter.

LabsRawesome

Zorro, don’t you think dogs deserve species appropriate food? They are not vegetarians, or garbage disposals. And I am not at all pleased or impressed with garbage dog foods, like this one.

Pattyvaughn

No, it can be real chunks of tame animal instead.

Zorro

Ah, so this is one of those sites that isn’t pleased with a dog food brand unless it has real chunks of wild animals in it…

BryanV21

Although it’s not a horrible food, I’d be hesitant feeding my dog anything with corn gluten meal, animal digest, or any ingredient that’s generically named. This has “animal” fat… what animal? That can be an important piece of information, as some dogs are allergic to certain animals.

Not saying you should change foods, but don’t be afraid to look into other foods. Trust me, it’s worth the trouble.

Jemjag

I have an 8-yr. old Shih-Tzu and she was tearing her skin up from allergies (even with the Vet’s medications.) I switched her to Purina One for Sensitive Systems….the one with Salmon as the Primary ingredient, and the difference has been amazing. I wouldn’t ever consider even consider changing her to another brand.

Hound Dog Mom

Gmcbogger,

I understand where you are coming from, however there are several higher quality brands that cost the same or only slightly more than Purina One. A 34 lb. bag of Purina One (2 stars) generally runs about $35. A 35 lb. bag of Merrick’s Whole Earth Farms (4 stars) runs about $40, a 30 lb. bag of Eagle Pack (4 stars) runs about $35, a 35 lb. bag of Nutro Max (3.5 stars) runs about $33, a 35 lb. bag Nature’s Recipe (3 stars) runs about $35, a 35 lb. bag of Pro Pac (3.5 stars) runs about $30. All you need to do is look around, if these foods aren’t available in your area all can be found online on various sites that offer free shipping.

Gmcbogger

I currently feed my dogs Nutro, but due to cutting back costs I am switching them to Purina One. It’s not the worst dog food and I had a dog live to be 17 years old and all she ever ate was Pedigree and Purina One. I’ll gladly feed my dogs purina one than have to give them up.

http://www.dfwpugs.com/ sandy

The liver is a filter. It filters out toxins that can come not only from food, but also medications that include vaccines, heartworm preventatives, flea and tick meds, outside exposures to yard chemicals. A lifetime of these things can also be damaging.

Dkeithjones

May be unrelated, but I have fed my dog purina one dog foods her entire life… she now has liver damage

Hound Dog Mom

This site is unbiased reviews of all brands. It’s not funded by any company. The ingredients list for Purina One is really all the explanation the review needs. That’s great that the Purina One is working for you though, although if you’ve never tried a higher quality brand I don’t know what you really have to judge the Purina One against. I used to feed Purina back before I started learning about canine nutrition. My dog did fine on Purina, he was healthy and everything, but after switching to a better quality diet and seeing the difference it made (shinier coat, cleaner teeth, better breath, more energy), I would never go back to Purina.

Janethamel18

Purines 1 is all I’ve ever given my cat and dog. They both are in perfect health. They have beautiful coats and teeth a nd are the perfect weight and their poop is regular. All of our vets (military family that has moved around) have been impressed with ow beautiful our babies are and only have good things to say about the brands I feed them. I think this link must be sponsored by a particular company trying to boost their profits by their slanderous comments of other brands. Purines 1 works for us and I will continue using it.

Jadagu1985

I have been feeding this food for about a month and one of my dogs have loss about a 1 pound on the light dog food

Jernigan007

my doberman grew fatty tumors fromth is food. not recommended!!! NUTRO ULTRA IS THE WAY TO GO. do not feed your pets junk food , like purina one!

http://twitter.com/dau1776 aardvark

Our Lab mix (spayed, fem., avg. weight is 50 lbs) has been on Purina ONE dry since we got her at 10 wks. in the pound). We fed whatever life-stage she was (puppy, adult, now senior). She is 13 1/2 and the vet is always stunned she is in such great shape, fit, trim, active for age. Says she sees all these overweight dogs. Our dog is now slowing down and is looking like a pretty senior dog (stiff, much less active, but for a Lab-ish (small) size, we think she IS pretty old.

Not changing horses mid-stream; might make a different choice for next dog after we …sniff… let this one go…sometime.

Johnandchristo

Popeye kahn……..

I’m with you, that is the truth.

http://BrothersComplete.com/ Richard Darlington

Jrandsr

You can order it onLine at BrothersComplete.com

You can also just click on my name to take you to the website.

Check out the Brothers Document on the left side for a nutritional perspective,

The shipping is free.

Jrandsr

Where can I purchase Brother’s Complete?

Popeye Kahn

Common commercial pet food is poison, loaded with excessive minerals, salt, and ash. This is particularly important if you have cats, because the high ash content in common commercial preparations can interfere with their ability to urinate, and can ultimately kill if the pet is not taken off the commercial food. both wet and dry foods have this issue. Buy a low-ash-content food ink a pert store or from your yet…the brands in grocery stores are manufactured to make money for the businesses (just as most human food is today), NOT to safeguard the health of your animal.

Mcartelami

I’ve been doing my research on Purina brand products and I have to say I’m shocked at how many pets have been sickened by their food. I’ve personally decided to give my cats & puppy a Raw Diet as nature intended it to be. I’m comforted in knowing that at least I know what’s in their food.

My dog loves Purina One and his digestive system runs best on it to be honest. Even when compared with some expensive premium nutritional dog foods.

Megs

I’m happy you found out in time! We weren’t so lucky with our golden and she had the same issues as your dog. We had to put her to sleep one day because she was groaning all day from the pain.

Donnie2545

Your dog does the same thing as mine. He picks out one of the bits and spits the others out on the floor. I guess it’s time to find another type of food he likes. Speedy is my descerning shopper. If he doesn’t like it I won’t buy it.

My vet told me to get off the grain free and feed her Purina,Iams,science diet,or beneful. He said Purina inspects all the corn batches and the ones rejected ends up in the cheaper foods….wow do you believe that??? My vet is a good surgeon though so I have to keep seeing (just in case).Very nice people but doesn’t get dog nutrition.Feel bad for owners that take that advice.

LAURA

MY 5 YR OLD BASSET/TERRIER MIX WAS EXTREMELY SICK VOMITTING AND HAVING TROUBLE WALKING LAST NITE. TOLD MY VET TODAY I WAS FEEDING HIM BENEFUL DOG FOOD. SHE SAID THERE IS AN ARTICLE ON A SITE SHARED BY VETS THAT WAS CALLED “BENEFUL BELLY” AND THIS DOGFOOD COULD BE THE CULPRIT BEHIND HIS PROBLEMS. HAVE FOUND MANY COMPLAINTS FROM OTHER DOG OWNERS ONLINE ABOUT BENEFUL. DO NOT FEED YOUR DOGS THIS FOOD. IT IS MADE BY PURINA. PLEASE SPREAD THE WORD ABOUT THIS. SHE SAID OLD ROY DOGFOOD USED TO BE THOUGHT AS THE MOST WORTHLESS FOOD, BUT BENEFUL MAY BE JUST AS BAD. THANKS!!! LAURA

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ninja Dog Food Ninja

Lucy, from your post, it seems you think you are sending a message to Purina… Dogfoodadvisor.com is a review website. Not Purina’s. Clearly, they would give their own product a better rating. lol

Lucy

My lab has been on Purina one almost all of her 13 years and she’s eaten it without any problems. Since you changed, and a third of the food is now soft, I have food all over my floor. She won’t eat the soft bits. Feeding times take forever as I have to remove each piece of soft, and pepper the remaining with bits of chicken and chopped up doggie sausage. Now I have to look for another dog food which she likes and without corn as it’s main ingredient. Not pleased

Liza

Also, since the formula change for Purina One we have noticed that our GSDs coat is not as shiny, more shedding than usual, less energy, stool changes and increased frequency, increased gas

Liza

We’ve had our GSD on Purina One since he was a puppy (he is now six). He seemed to do well with it until they changed to the Smart Blend. After being on it for two weeks his ears were bothering him. We took him to the vet and she asked what his diet was. We told her and she said that he was the third dog she’d seen that day that had the same ear infection (one of those dogs was actually the dog seen before us) and all three of them had been eating Smart Blend. She gave us meds for his ears and they don’t bother him like they did before but they still seem a little sensitive. Now he won’t eat it unless he’s really hungry so we’ve just switched to Nature’s Domain so hopefully that will help.

S Fowler

FYI…I’ve been feeding my 8 yr old lab Purina One Healthy Formula for years. Recently he became lathargic, diarreah, and couldn’t walk, refusing to drink, eat and couldn’t pick his head up. We took him to the vet and after complete blood work and several xrays they were showing all inconclusive. The vet told us to take him home and “enjoy him while we got him”. So that’s when I thought about his food. I immediately started feeding him something else that I had in the pantry from months ago when the store was out of Purina. Thank God! He’s been a new dog since I did. I Googled “Purina dog food complaints” and there is a slew of them. For some reason there is no recall yet, but there are many pets suffering because of this company. I’m just thankful mine isn’t anymore.

Bob K

Sarah – You should be happy, you now have free access to all the information on this website as valuable tool for you and your friends. Many of the brands and Mfgs and food formulas did not exist 12 years ago. We know much more about both human and pet nutrition than ever before and websites like this one empowers consumers. I fed my dog ProPlan for 12 years starting about 20 years ago. Its not a bad food but for what I paid I now learned I could have provided better nutrition for my pet and and had more money in my pocket. Purina One is better than many mass marketed dog foods available at many big box grocery and discount stores. Check out Kirklands at Costco – What a bargain.

Sarah

I am so sad. I wish these reviews had been around twelve years ago. I switched my three dogs over to Purina One because a vet told me that it would help my new puppy’s dandruff. I thought it was a high quality dog food, the price certainly seemed to reflect that. It did clear up his skin and my other dogs seemed to like it and had no ill effects until they were about 10-11 years old. They ALL developed fatty tumors which were worrisome but did not harm their health. But as seniors they were all pretty sluggish. I didn’t know that they really shouldn’t have been acting so old. After two died- one from unknown age related disease and one from cancer- we switched the youngest to a home made diet. At twelve years old, he is a puppy again! I am absolutely certain that if we had switched them all years ago we would have not only added years to their life, but life to their years- as they say.

http://DogFoodAdvisor.com Mike Sagman

John… After reviewing this and similar comments posted by you here or on other articles on this website, it’s apparent you’re either working together with others (or as a fraudulent individual using multiple identities) from the same computer IP address. Any further postings by you designed to deliberately defraud our users will be deleted.

http://www.facebook.com John

Okay here is my story. I feed my dog pinnacle (good food) but due to the economy I switched over to purina (bad food) my dog had diarrhea, lost a lot of hair, went skinny. I even found a peace of plastic once. Now that I got my job back I’m switching to pinnacle. I remember the day I came home with the bag of pinnacle my dog got so happy it was unbielivable!!! So if you want a good healthy long lasting dog..Don’t feed him/her purina.

http://brotherscomplete.com Richard Darlington

Darren

It is NEVER too late to switch to healthier food in my opinion. Two of our four dogs were fed the same mass marketed junk for about 14 years or so and we switched over to a combination of raw for one meal and a good grain free for the other meal (and later a grain/potato free kibble for the other meal). They are still going strong at 20 and 21 years of age (a Yorkie and Lhaso Apso).

i just had a customer come into the store who spoke to me 6 months ago when her Yorkie was on junk food and required constant doses of phenobarbital for his frequent siezures. I recommended she put the dog on a good grain and potato free kibble (Brothers Complete) and she came in today (six months later) to tell me that the dog was now completely off all phenobarbital and was doing great. She brought the little bugger in to show me. So a bad diet can cause ALL kinds of problems that are not necessarily connected to diet. Get your dog off grain and potato and watch him bloom. Feed him some raw each day (as well as the kibble) if you can, or at least a raw meaty bone every few days for dental health.

We hear all the time in the store that Vets and other dog owners caution against mixing kibble with raw. Normally I agree unless you are using a kibble that is grain/potato free and has digestive enzymes added. We have been able to mix the Brothers Complete with raw on all four of our dogs with no problems. Recently, however, we have put our 21 yr old on just Brothers but I think the reason most kibbles cannot mix with the raw has more to do with the grain/potato that doesn’t combine well with the raw in a dog.

So take the leap of faith, put your best bud on 5 star food and report back in three months so we can see if you have joined the long line of the “good food converts”.

Darren

I’ve been feeding my dogs Purina One SmartBlend for a couple of years now. While they seem to like it and have had no obvious health problems from eating it, I now feel terrible about feeding it to them, given the poor rating. I am going to switch them over to a much higher rated food, but I now worry that I may have done them irreparable harm by feeding them this junk food. I would certainly welcome any thoughts as to whether upgrading their diet now will help offset any damage done by this inferior food.

peter b

Hi guys,

i used to feed this food from my local supermarket and it didnt do a great deal in keeping my kelpie healthy. he would often eat grass and even his own poo…yuck! and i noticed i was taking him to the vet for this or that on a regular basis. it could have been from beneful to but i dont like eirther now from my experience. 4 months on and hes on a totally different type of diet and is so far doing good and it to early to see whether his vet visits will slow down but well see. i can see why now with all the red flag stuff that this is a bad food.

Antonio

Man you guys sure have some highly intelligent responses. I’ve never read either book your referencing, maybe I need to pick it up a bit and get more information since it’s readily available. Between work and training my time gets a bit congested.

http://www.drianbillinghurst.com Gordon

aimee – lol @ just reading the cover of Dr. Ian Billinghurst’s book. The short answer is no, that doesn’t count. But thanks for the honesty.

I actually agree that Dr. Tom Lonsdale’s arrogance didn’t do him any favours, however his message comes from his passionate heartfelt educated opinion. I admit, he could have handled himself a little more moderately, in his blatant accusations of the mainstream pet food industry.

No aimee, we are not at war, hence the ‘lol’ at the end. It’s all in good faith.

aimee

Richard,
I have no idea what study you are referring to as I can’t conceive of any research being done in which grain is put into a dog’s colon. Perhaps if you provide a link I can then discuss it with you.

Richard wrote “How about wearing out the “Islands of Langerhans”

I’ve heard of this idea before but it just makes no sense to me. Does not drinking enough water cause Diabeties Insipidus because we wear out our Anti Diurectic Hormone producing cells? Do we develop Addison’s disease because we are under stress and wear out our cortisol producing cells?? This idea of wearing out our cells only seems to be mentioned in relation to Diabetes Mellitus. Why that is I have no idea.

Richard wrote “and whose degeneration leads to – DIABETES MELLITUS. So much for the geniuses who are telling you type II diabetes is not in the pet population.”

To clarify type 2 diabetes is well recognized in the cat. Type 2 diabetes is due to insulin resistance and it is not recognized in the dog. If you have a loss of beta cells what would result is type 1 diabetes.

Richard wrote “because science has said love cannot be proven?” Love transcends science but many biochemical markers have been identified : ).

aimee

Hi Gordon, As promised, I’m back.

Gordon wrote “Is pub med and NRC American government endorsed sources?”

From the website, PubMed is a free resource that is developed and maintained by the National Center for Biotechnology Information (NCBI), at the U.S. National Library of Medicine (NLM), located at the National Institutes of Health (NIH).
“over 20 million citations for biomedical literature from MEDLINE, life science journals, and online books. PubMed citations and abstracts include the fields of medicine, nursing, dentistry, veterinary medicine, the health care system, and preclinical sciences.

NRC is the National Research Council, one of the National Academies from the website “private, nonprofit institutions that provide expert advice…..”

When I refer to NRC I’m referring to the book Nutrient Requirements of Dogs and Cats, by the NRC.

Gordon wrote “I would try and finish my Biology Major if I was you” Actually, truth be told I did go back to school… but instead of finishing the bio major I decided to take classes to round out my education as it was previously all so science based. I took English lit, and history, and religion and lots of classes in psych /sociology department, including research methods and statistics in prep for writing a thesis. But… the prof. that I would be under, I had no respect for (he was eventually fired). So as embarrassing as it is, I admit to almost finishing not one degree, but two! : ) I was thinking of going back for a degree in nutrition, who knows maybe the third times the charm! Congrats on finishing your degrees!

In reference to Ian Billinghurst, Gordon wrote “He’s written books such as the very well renown ‘Give Your Dog A Bone’. Have you read it. Let me guess, you have”

I’ve seen the cover does that count??

I’ve read a bit of Lonsdale’s stuff but it read more like a political manifesto than a nutrition book. I found such things he wrote like “foul mouths AIDS” to be offensive, Frankly, I just couldn’t continue to read it. If he was expelled from the AVA based on what I read of his I’d have to say it was the messenger not the message that was the problem.

Gordon wrote “aimee, you wrote, “As I don’t know of any veterinary nutritionists”

What I refer to here are board certified veterinary nutritionists, in US they are members of the American College of Veterinary Nutrition.

Gordon wrote “I got plenty more ammunition, lol” Are we at war??
I have no love of commercial dog foods. They exist because of convenience and costs. As I said before, man is arrogant if we think we put every nutritional need into a dried kibble. What I do like though is objective data instead of emotional rhetoric when discussing diets.

http://brotherscomplete.com Richard Darlington

Aimee,
I’ll save you an inquiry regarding my “research”. My “research” is a compilation of over 5 years of experience with our customers dogs and changing their diet to remedy “skin” associated problems. The problems included, itching, licking / gnawing of paws, hot spots, excessive shedding, biting tail or base of tail, general scratching, repetitive ear infections, rashes, loss of hair in large areas, dull eyes, dull fur, or any other condition that exhibited problems on the skin (generally Candida overgrowth will cause Candidiasis which can produce a wide variety of issues including hypersensitivity to things that might otherwise not bother the dog and would often exhibit as a skin condition).

I think I can hear your mental gears turning and you are wondering if the Candida was diagnosed and confirmed with a test. Actually this was very rare but not unheard of. The strain of Candida which gets out of hand in the colon must be tested for with a stool analysis and must be specifically targeted so not many were verified. Having had personal experience with a systemic Candida overgrowth I was familiar with the problem and the solution. To bring Candida back into balance takes a concerted effort over 6 to 12 months on a diet of no grain, potato, or sugar along with the addition of probiotic strains that are specific to a dogs gut (the bacteria in a dogs gut do not necessarily match those in a human). This helps the other bacteria to flourish and crowd the Candida back into balance. Our experience was that approximately 20% of the dogs had Candida to some extent but responded when kept on a grain / potato free diet for at least 6 months.

Over a fairly long life and association with scientific studies I find that without a healthy dose of skepticism and common sense they can actually be misleading. An example of how science can twist something is the test they did where they “proved” that dogs could metabolize grains by injecting them directly into the colon of some test dogs and measuring to what extent the grain was metabolized. This looks good on the surface but for two salient (at least in my opinion) points not addressed.

First, dogs do not ingest grain directly into their colon where their Pancreas actually does have some Amylase to help break it down. It goes into the stomach where it changes the PH in the wrong direction (more basic). The enzymes that digest meat function best at very acid levels (Ph 1) or thereabouts. The other thing not addressed is that before it goes into the stomach it does not get salivary Amylase mixed in with it as is the case in humans because dogs do not have enzymes in their mouths. Besides, their mouths are designed to rip and swallow so even if they did have salivary Amylase (which they don’t) the enzymes wouldn’t have a chance to be very effective. So now the grain, which is NOT being predigested and broken down by salivary Amylase and the grinding, mashing effect of flat molars, dumps into the stomach and then into the small intestine where it is absorbed in very quickly. Unlike people, dogs have very short small intestines because their extremely low stomach PH does most of the work so the small intestine just absorbs what’s left in short order.

Second, Dogs historic diet has been very low on the glycemic index as meat basically has a zero rating. The fact that the test shows the grain is metabolized in the colon does not even address the issue that it would cause a huge spike in the dogs blood sugar. The Pancreas in a dog has two functions: First, produce digestive enzymes to augment what enzymes are already in the raw food that has been their diet for at least 4 million years. Since we cook their food the enzymes are killed (at 118 degrees F) so the Pancreas must work overtime secreting enzymes. Second, regulate blood sugar which is quite a big job when we are dumping high glycemic starches into them and their historic diet has been high in meat and fat which are zero on the glycemic scale. It should be mentioned here that the Glycemic index of foods is based on human consumption. Humans pre-digest grains/potatoes with an enzyme in their mouths called Amylase which mixes with the grain as it is crushed by our molars. I’m not sure how the glycemic rating of foods in dogs would be different but that it would be different seems apparent.

Now, as a quick side note, we’ve all heard that too much fat in a dogs diet can cause Pancreatitis and yet have you ever heard anyone say anything about chronic overproduction of enzymes or the chronic overproduction of insulin necessary to balance a dogs modern diet having any effect on wearing out the Pancreas? How about wearing out the “Islands of Langerhans”
whose beta cells job is to produce insulin and whose degeneration leads to – DIABETES MELLITUS. So much for the geniuses who are telling you type II diabetes is not in the pet population. They are apparently unaware that we are capable of doing our own research. Actually they are just trying to con the masses who still think if it’s from “science” it’s real.

So this was a case of a wonderfully misleading scientific test (paid for by one of the four mega companies who own 90% of all the dog foods made and who are filling their dog food with grain). This is hearsay from our PH.D. nutritionist who was actually doing some work for this large company at the time.

Keep in mind that science has “proved” that woman’s intuition or psychic phenomenon does not exist because they cannot reproduce it at will in a laboratory. As a sentient human being who has lived a few good years I can tell you unequivocally that I have personally experienced psychic phenomena on numerous occasions and it has even saved my life a few times.
I do understand the desire to hold on to the safety of “proven” data only, but life is so replete with examples of todays “proven” facts giving way to tomorrows new realities that you must take it all with a grain of sand in my opinion. As Jonathan so often reminds us, the people that have the money or interest to fund these scientific studies very often have a hidden agenda. In this country it is often wise to follow the money trail.

Not everything can be “proven” anyway. Sometimes the organic process of life is far to complex to understand every detail and it is wiser to look at the whole and rely on empirical observation in my opinion. I will leave you with a final thought on the efficacy and reliability of science in all things. I understand you have a child, as I do. Science cannot prove that love exists – so do you, for one moment, discount your ability to love your child with all your heart because science has said love cannot be proven? Who said, “Life is a mystery, wrapped in an enigma, etc”?

Unfortunately for everyone this is a topic that I can go on about endlessly so I will show some compassion and just shut up right now.

http://www.drianbillinghurst.com Gordon

Well aimee, better to make you laugh than cry hey? You take your time now ya hear? I got plenty more ammunition, lol.

Oh yeah, I also went over what I wrote as we all do, and I realised when I asked, “Is pub med and NRC American government endorsed sources?”, that, that might have implied some racism. If it did, I apologise for that was not the intention of the question. I’m weary of any government endorsed or otherwise sources, including my own. Not always, just some of the time, lol.

Anna

A lot of dogs don’t like the smell of ‘duck’ or can’t tolerate it at all. I know mine can’t to this day. A 13 year old dog of mine.

aimee

Gordon,

You make me laugh: ) I promise I”l get back to you but it may not be for a few days.. plumbing in kitchen spewed water everywhere… long day.

In regards to my dog.. She was on a home made diet of, as I remember, corn starch, dried milk, beef lard, corn oil?? molassass and I’m sure other things. All I remember is after mixing the stuff up it looked like a bunch of brown sugar! This recipe was provided to me from her vet . She was on that for maybe her first year??? Then she was put on crimminy… I can’t remember I think it was either Hills RD or WD. She had a real problem with fat, but her protein couldn’t be too high either. At some point Iams came out with a restricted fat diet that was lower in fat than the Hill’s and she stayed on that the rest of her life. When she was 7 she got into my cat’s food and that is what triggered the severe pancreatitis. At that point in her life she was probably on the Iams food??? There was no diet change as a result of her pancreatitis episode.
Yep, steroids cause insulin resistance. I was terrified of putting her on them, because I already knew she had a damaged pancreas and her glucoses ran high. But she needed them as part of her cancer treatment and we( her Dr and I) figered if we tipped her over into DM we’d just have to deal with that with insulin. She was probably 12 at the time she started steroids.

<<>>

Perhaps I should have said “saved by very weird diets” and left the “a” out. As it is written each dog was saved individually by a single weird diet. For my dog the weird diet saved her in her first year when she was vomiting just about everything. Passionate referred to explaining how a weird diet can be life saving. I’m sure there are lots of weird diets out there… Til later

http://www.drianbillinghurst.com Gordon

aimee – My apologies re the links I provided that references my quotes of your comments, which won’t work from your end if trying to click on them. The error in the 3 links I’m referring to contain “https…” at the start, instead of just “http”. They appear that way, because I left clicked the mouse and chose the “copy link location” then pasted it. Because I often use Secure Socket Layer encryption when writing in forums, when I copy any link location with in that website/forum, it will automatically add the “s” at the end of “http” which if you click on your end, won’t work.

So to rectify that, just in case you do read and click on those links I’m referring to above, same are below shown correctly:-

Hi Antonio, Seriously, You have proof that dogs have lived 20+ years on completely vegetarian diets? With no meat / protein whatsoever? I, for one, would love to see your proof.

http://www.drianbillinghurst.com Gordon

aimee – You turn me on, as does Shameless. In different ways though. (Gee I hope that didn’t sound sleazy. I mean in a good way) You wrote, “Wow that guy is busy!! That is on average nearly 11 homes a day, 365 days a year. If he has tracked and accumulated all that data he should publish it! Where can I read Richard Darlington’s published research? I don’t see anything in pub med or google scholar, which are my go to sources for publications. Nor can I find anything published by Ian Billinghurst, in a recognized peer reviewed journal.
It all maybe may be completely true but without that “measuring stick” I have no choice but to file it all as opinion.”

Actually, the dog trainer I spoke of who claims to have visited about 60,000 homes in 15 years, is not Richard Darlington. With regard to Richard Darlington, where I eluded to his claimed research was actually not under the ‘Dry Food and Cleaner Teeth’ Article but rather the ‘Are Dogs Omnivores or Carnivores….’ You’ll have to ask him directly if he can provide you with recorded data. However, you can find one of his comments that I was referring to here, https://www.dogfoodadvisor.com/canine-nutrition/dogs-carnivores-omnivores/#comment-22892

The dog trainer that I was referring to works in Australia. I’m not aware that he’s written any books, however he has written articles and does conduct seminars as well as give advice over email correspondence. I think he’s retired from actual dog training field work, but as I said, still travels to conduct seminars through out his state and the rest of Australia, I think.

Is pub med and NRC American government endorsed sources?

With regard to Dr.Ian Billinghurst his credentials are BVSc (Hons), BSc.Agr,,Dip.Ed. (The BVSc with Honours is equivalent to America’s DVM with Honours). He’s written books such as the very well renown ‘Give Your Dog A Bone’. Have you read it. Let me guess, you have, just like when ever someone else refers to a source, article or book, you seem to say, that you’ve read it.If you have read it and all the rest you say you have, then Madam, I would try and finish my Biology Major if I was you, being that you knit pick every single rebuttal someone else discloses, impresses that you’re more than capable of completing your Biology Major. Because you can do it such via correspondence nowadays that may help balance your understandable house wife and child care duties. I plan to complete my Electrical Engineering degree the same way, having completed the Electrical Associate Diploma and Bachelor or Electrical Technology diploma and degree. I’m uncertain that Dr. Billinghurst has input in peer reviewed journals, however such journals can unwelcome unconventional and pet food industry threatened thinking and theories, and therefore may not have even been able to make such inputs. However, his books…. “explain why processed foods are the major cause of growth, reproductive, dental and most of the degenerative diseases including problems such as cancer, diabetes, arthritis, kidney failure, cardiac disease, the auto-immune diseases etc.”

“This book has changed the thinking of tens of thousands of people worldwide.
More importantly, it has in most instances improved the health of these people’s dogs.
Many of these people now look to Dr. Billinghurst as ‘the authority’ on feeding pet carnivores their evolutionary diet.
Some say that “Give Your Dog a Bone” has become their “Bible.”

“Give Your Dog a Bone” is essential background reading for Dr. Billinghurst’s second book “Grow Your Pups With Bones.”

Sorry aimee, but I’ll believe the greatness of experts such as Dr.Ian Billinghurst on the subject at hand than that of you and your arguments, whether based on some government endorsed pubmed or otherwsie full stop (Period).

Another example of an enemy against the appeasement of the Pet Food Industry and conventional and brainwashed Veterinary ideology is that of Dr. Tom Lonsdale’s expulsion from the Australian Veterinary Association (AVA). His ideology with proven results is a threat to the very establishment and you can read the report about his expulsion and more here http://www.rawmeatybones.com/tdt.htm

aimee, under https://www.dogfoodadvisor.com/dog-food-reviews/purina-veterinary-diets-ha/#comment-22806, you wrote, “She was eventually changed over to a veterinary specific diet’. This being after you stated sometime prior that you placed her on a home made diet 20 years ago resembling Purina’s HA formula, which I’m not disputing, however how did you even know back then that such a home made remedy could have had success, given your Vet was ready to euthanise her? This tells me that you have some knowledge more than your willing to disclose about your back ground. And what Veterinary specific diet was she put on if you don’t mind me asking, and if not Purina HA as you say your home made formula resembled?

You also wrote, “She lived another 7 and a half years on a high glycemic food and never developed diabetes despite having little functional pancreas left and being on high doses of steroids as part of her chemo treatment”. Aren’t steroid medications such as corticosteroids or progesterone a possibility in inducing canine diabetes? I don’t profess to know the different types of steroids, but Dr. Julia Adams who I quoted also stated as follows “…..and chronic administration of drugs such as corticosteroids or progesterone (in dogs) can predispose to diabetes mellitus.”

You also wrote, “I can identify with Jewel because of the experience with my dog. Both her dog and mine were saved by a very weird diet (Not diets as in plural – eluding more belief that you’re referring to the exact same diet). I guess this is why I’m so passionate about trying to explain it” So which diet are you trying to explain that saved your dog’s life. Could the “Veterinary specific diet” actually be the one about Purina Veterinary HA diet, of which is the very thread you posted your perspectives and defense over?

aimee – Please don’t take offense in these probing questions and this post in general. I want you to know that I speak from the heart and only seek the truth with out distorting and questionable influences.

The profession I’m currently trained in, also teaches me to note the most subtle of changes or pecularities in all sorts of communications. Please take no offense and allow me to reiterate, that your comments and posts are challenging and interesting, but sill unpersuasive.

Mary

Wow, just for fun I wanted to look and see what score Purina One would get, and I stumble upon this heated discussion. I have commented only one other time on the Solid Gold food. All I can say is, I am a veterinarian, and about 5 years ago after REALLY educating myself on nutrition (we don’t get any instruction on this in school, I graduated in 1991) I no longer recd Science Diet, Purina products, Iams, etc. to any of my clients. Kudos to Mike for this site and for all his and his wife’s hard work. I currently feed Blue Buffalo to my golden and boston, I used to feed Solid Gold – love both diets. We now carry the Blue at the clinic where I work – largely in part because I tweaked everyone’s thinking (including the owner) about dog food and cat food. Don’t even ask me what I think about Rx diets – it’s difficult to move away from them. My feeling is if the pet is at least started on a quality diet to beging with, then hopefully we won’t see as many disease processes later in life requiring a special diet. I love the idea of cooking for your pet and feeding quality “people” food – for example, my dogs get appropriate fruits and veggies for treats instead of junk. Anyway, I choose not to feed a diet with artificial anything or with Menadione. Another good website for anyone interested is thedogfoodproject.com by Sabine Contreras, and a good periodical is the Whole Dog Journal.

Antonio

Honestly I think Aimee’s comments has caused problems for many b/c it does force us to learn and to think. B/c just when we think we know it all, we are presented w/ factual information. I for one have no problem with someone telling the truth and prooving it with factual data to back up the claims. I mean I hear all the time about the dogs need meat comment and I always ask the simple question how are some many dogs THRIVING 20 plus human years eating vegetarian diets? That would imply to me that it’s not 100% true that dogs must have meat in their diet to survive and thrive.

aimee

Gordon and Michelle,
Actually these discussions have nothing to do with Purina. It is just a coincidence that I read posts on Purina product threads that piqued my interest.

My dog that needed a special diet never was on Purina products.

And as I said in the very first post I ever made “ I‘ll start by saying that I don’t work for Purina, nor do any of my relatives, friends or acquaintances. I am not a mole, nor have I received payment, of any type or form from Purina.:)” I started off that way because it seems common that if you post anything other than “this product (insert favorite derogatory term)” on a product that rates lower on Mike’s star rating, the poster automatically works for the company in question.

Realistically, I think that there is no one diet that all dogs will do well on. So just as there are dogs that will do better on a 5 star product that will be others that do better on a lower rated product.

aimee

Mike,
I included the information from the cat company because you and others frequently ask why companies don’t use fresh sources of Vit K in their foods. This response from a company that needs active Vit K in their diet is indicating that natural sources are not stable.
Also, I knew that you were planning on launching a cat food advisor so this is an issue you will have to address in that forum. How though you can even keep up with this site in amazing to me I can’t imagine you adding more to your workload.

I’m sorry you see my contributions as “your relentless mission to find fault with so much of my work” I’m only trying in some small way to expand upon the wealth of information on this site. You and others ask questions and so I try to find those answers and post what information I find. It is as Shamelsss stated, to provide “Food For Thought.

aimee

Gordon,
I apologize for the delay in getting back to you. In regards to diet induced diabetes. What you posted agrees with what I posted earlier. High fat diets are a risk factor for pancreatitis, and pancreatitis is a risk factor for diabetes. The reason I said diet induced diabetes doesn’t exist is because there isn’t a direct cause and effect.

We really are saying the same thing here but the semantics is different. Any caloric source in excess of need can be stored as fat. Obesity in dogs causes insulin resistance, but this on it’s own doesn’t cause diabetes. There needs to be concurrent destruction of the beta cells.

The examples I gave regarding correlation were not meant to give an impression I thought these things were related, though I have seen it written that others do. They were simply examples that things change over time in parallel with each other. Vaccinations use has increased, commercial food use has increased, and parasite control increased.
<<<>> Wow that guy is busy!! That is on average nearly 11 homes a day, 365 days a year. If he has tracked and accumulated all that data he should publish it! Where can I read Richard Darlington’s published research? I don’t see anything in pub med or google scholar, which are my go to sources for publications. Nor can I find anything published by Ian Billinghurst, in a recognized peer reviewed journal.
It all maybe may be completely true but without that “measuring stick” I have no choice but to file it all as opinion.

In regards to natural sources of Vit K in food, I can’t see how there would be enough kale, spinach etc to supply the manufactures needs. Additionally, the reference I supplied in my reply to Mike points to a lack of stability.

I had asked you to name a carb source and protein source so we could do some direct comparisons of nutrient analysis of source ingredients. Picking fruits and vegetables isn’t a primary carb source in any dry food I know, and it would make your work very complicated. But if you want to play along, find a nutrient analysis for poultry meal, cite your source and I’ll find one for poultry by product meal and we can compare.

http://www.drianbillinghurst.com Gordon

True Jonathan, but there’s always an exception to the rule regarding your last sentence above. She is articulate and vehement because she’s behind an agenda, or who the hell knows, lol. Anyway, I’m off for now.

Jonathan

I still have trouble understanding her determination in defending this and other Purina foods. It’s almost like some one going to a health food forum and trying to explain to everyone there with all sorts of research that McDonald’s is actually good for you. Usually, people who defend low-quality products aren’t quite so articulate and vehement. Oh well, what do you do.

http://www.drianbillinghurst.com Gordon

Yeah Michelle, that’s what I thought and actually made the written assumption that she’s a shill for Purina, and got attacked in no uncertain terms about my accusation. So it’s probably better to give people the benefit of the doubt and not make such accusations with out actual proof. So I’m happy to entertain the notion that what she explained about her experiences, and to believe that she’s not related to Purina in anyway despite her constant impressionable advocacy for them, even though I still have my doubts about her actual agenda. Other than that, she is quite intelligent and astute and these forums are all about debating each of our perspectives.

In the end, it’s all good!

Michelle

Gordon, we have no way of knowing this for sure but, maybe she works for Purina? I’m with you, I can’t see how this concoction of grains, by products, and toxic “vitamins” could help any animal live, except for providing calories. I too have seen a huge difference in my pets. I started out with Purina One lbp when my Lab was a pup. Went to Natures Recipe. Finally moved my dogs to Holistic foods Fromm, Merrick, Orijen, and meat based canned.I also add human grade meats,eggs,fish, and throw in some fruits-veggies. My dogs went from looking okay on the old junk food,to looking great on their new diet.Bright shiny eyes and super soft shiny coats, and nice firm stools.And much higher energy levels. They would probably look even better on raw…… One thing I know for sure, I will never return to cheaply made grocery store food again!

http://www.drianbillinghurst.com Gordon

To Michelle – aimee has provided many references to spin her side of the story. If you re-read all her posts (I know they’re long) she does back up her perspectives, albeit a as a predilection to predispose or sway people to consider and believe that in particular Purina products and its concoction of grain riddled and synthetic properties are actually good for our dogs. I guess, since one of the hypoallergenic Purina products saved her dog’s life from its particular illness and prolonged its life for another 7 years or so, might have given her a lease of reason to maintain Purina’s defense. I’m only speculating.

As someone else said (can’t recall who now…too many posts, but with out scrolling up it may have been Jonathan?), most research findings in favour of such products and/or particular additive/ingredient, may be funded by the very institutes who ultimately gain to benefit from sales of same.

The evidence that aimee (Not that it’s probably conspicuous, but I normally spell someone’s posted name as they have posted it, hence is why I don’t quote aimee’s name first with a capital “A”) requests many times to contradict her’s, has really been in front of us the whole time. I last spoke of it in my last post under this thread and since it was way too long, I wouldn’t hold it against anyone who couldn’t be bothered reading it. The general evidence, I’m speaking of, is the very fact that there are so many articles disclosing findings from studies and in the course of source work, that show just how dogs have shown dramatic improvements in their overall health from a change of diet from these types of grain riddled doggy biscuits/pellets to the way more naturally formulated and bonded grain free doggy biscuits, processed wet, air-dried and biologically appropriate raw foods. This is evidence of sorts that will suffice me just fine aimee. Not to mention that my dogs who went from being fed Pedigree, to Purina Pro Plan, to a rotation of Artemis and BARF, have shown (with out exaggeration) an astonishing improvement to their coats, stools, breath, gum lines, energy levels, and overall content and happiness.

Michelle

Shameless, from your name, I am guessing that you feed your dogs raw. Please correct me if I am wrong. If so do you add Menadione,BHA,BHT,and Ethoxyquin to their raw diet? Dumb question right? Of course it is. No one in their right mind ever would. That’s all I’m saying, tons of people have done a lot of research on the effects of these additives. So in my opinion why risk it? Thanks to the research that I have done on various websites, I have taken these out of my pets as well as my 6 year old son’s diet. Check cereal boxes for BHA, BHT. I am not willing to risk any of my babies health. If Aimee isn’t convinced,then that’s up to her, but she may be swaying people’s opinions about this site that are just starting to learn / research for themselves, into thinking (incorrectly) that Dr. Sagman is incorrect, so maybe they will just continue with low grade food. I agree with Dr. Mike about these Controversial ( to say the least) ingredients.

ShamelessRawFoodie

I don’t view Aimee’s questions or comments as a “relentless mission to find fault with” Mike’s work on this website. Mike has indeed done a fabulous job with this website. He provides valuable information so that readers can make informed choices about dog food.

Since most commercial dog foods are scientific formulas with highly processed ingredients and fortified with chemical vitamins and minerals, there will always be doubts, questions, concerns, and disagreements. Especially if comments are made as if they are fact.

In reviewing the dialogue with Aimee in several threads, it appears that Aimee posts a comment or a response just like anyone else, and then Mike and others post their comments, and on it goes. It seems to me that Aimee is relentless in two things – providing research data that explains her point, and requesting research data from others who make statements as if they are fact.

I personally loathe the Rocket Science aspect of processed food. But because these commercial dog foods are based on scientific formulas, I respect Aimee’s assertions and I think she offers Food For Thought!

Mike P

Some people are just button pushers . I guess out of bordom or just a way of getting attention . Who knows and really , who cares ? I know that this site has helped me feed my dog better . Mission accomplished . Most of the posters are well meaning and just interested in keeping their pets healthy . I enjoy this place and will always come back to it . I for one thank Mike and his wife for all the hard work they put in . My advice is that if someone here annoys you , don’t bother reading them . Thanks to all that make this a fun place to visit .

Michelle

Aimee, You are intelligent,no doubt about it. But I, like Dr. Sagman, am confused as to why you have made it your mission to find fault with his work. There are endless websites with different Authors / Vets / Researchers, that all agree on some controversial ingredients. Menadione, BHA, BHT, Ethoxyquin, just to name a few….. If you disagree with their research, then I have one question- What research have you personally done to prove that these controversial ingredients are safe?

http://DogFoodAdvisor.com Mike Sagman

Hi Aimee… Regarding your comment, “I came across this in response to a consumer question regarding menadione in cat food and found it interesting.”

Yes, I agree. This is indeed interesting. However, with all due respect, since this is not The Cat Food Advisor (a project I look forward to launching in the future), I will continue to reference AAFCO nutritional profiles for dogs.

And menadione will remain listed here as a controversial ingredient.

This thread (along with many of your previous comments) has certainly been interesting. But for me, they’ve also been extraordinarily time consuming and have unfortunately distracted me from recipe updates, a long and growing list of reviews to be written and other articles I’m looking forward to sharing with other readers.

In closing (and as I’ve mentioned here before), I’m not sure I understand what drives you to pursue your relentless mission to find fault with so much of my work… work which I’ll be the first to admit is not without its flaws.

In any case, this website is still a labor of love. And a well-meaning personal effort by me and my wife meant to be beneficial to all those who still yearn for help when choosing dog food. So, forgive me as I move on from this subject.

http://DogFoodAdvisor.com Mike Sagman

I’m still working on my response to Aimee. But seeing patients this morning. And addressing other comments. Will finish and post my answer later today.

ShamelessRawFoodie

It appears Mike’s comment was removed (from this morning). How did that happen? Maybe my computer is playing tricks!

aimee

Mike,

“No, Aimee… I did not misunderstand what you said. You must not have noticed the very first sentence where I cautioned you, “The following represents my response (April 27, 2010) to another reader with a similar question.””

Sorry I jumped the gun there…I wasn’t sure where the old response was starting from.

“Aimee… I had no trouble finding a reliable reference regarding menadione toxicity”.

I specifically was asking for a reference regarding linking menadione, as it is supplemented in pet food, to toxicity in a dog or cat. Sorry I wasn’t clear on that.

“However, I thought I had done a fairly satisfactory job of explaining why I chose to label menadione a “controversial”

And I’ve said all along that you have every right to label it as such.

“ …..to defend the use of a nutritionally unnecessary government-banned supplement without questioning its safety defies logic.”

Ouch!! Not sure how you meant that… but you make it sound like I am not logical. Apparently the government banned it from people because of consumption/injection of massive quantities. ( Heck, “the government” is looking to ban bath salts as people have come up with neat ways injuring themselves with them.) So I questioned the safety, (looked at the data) and am comfortable with menadione as an ingredient in pet food. I feel it is completely safe, you don’t. No Biggie : )

I came across this in response to a consumer question regarding menadione in cat food and found it interesting. Apparently in cats there IS an AAFCO requirement for Vit K??? I know in NRC it is written “Diets containing a high proportion of fish should have menadione added.” whereas supplementing with menadione in dog food is only recommended.http://www.traciehotchner.com/blog/533/why-is-menadione-in-weruva/
(1) AAFCO REQUIRES US TO PUT MENADIONE IN OUR SEAFOOD BASED CAT FOOD FORMULAS IN ORDER TO BE SUITABLE FOR EVERY DAY FEEDING The vast majority of pet food does not require the supplementation of vitamin K in any form. However, according to AAFCO, cat food that contains at least 25% seafood on a dry matter basis must contain a certain level of vitamin K, and according to AAFCO, the only approved source of vitamin k is menadione.
Natural Vitamin K based ingredients – Based upon our research and advice from nutritional consultants, we have learned that there may be “complete depletion” of phylloquinone, the main component of vitamin k, during food processing. Our food is cooked once, put in a can and sealed, and then cooked again in a retort process at high temperatures at extended periods of time in order to “sterilize” the product. Under ordinary heat treatment, vitamin k is relatively stable. However, we are not lightly cooking the food.
Please see this report on the stability of natural vitamin k:http://www3.interscience.wiley.com/journal/118510171/abstract
So apparently this company of high end canned food adds menadione to its products for the reasoning given. As there is no such requirement for Vit K in dog food companies are free to leave it out… which is what most of them do.

Anna

Supposedly some of the top breed that get or are prone to diabetes mellitus are: beagles, dachshunds, miniature pinscher, poodles, cairn terriers, keeshonds, miniature schnauzers and pulis.

Anna

Good Dena Beebe. Glad to know I ‘helped’ you. Together we’re getting somewhere

Anna

Boy, you better go to obedience school Bob K. I’ll stick with the rest of my friends for now

You said, “But remember diabetes in dogs is not diet induced.” Some may beggar to differ including practicing Vets. The following is a response I received from a Vet I often correspond with who is one, a great human being, and two, a fine Veterinarian, always replying to my inquiries in a timely manner. Her only form of gratitude sought, is that she appreciates her inquirers send her pics of their pets as she enjoys looking at pet photos.

“Hi Gordon,

Yes, both cats and dogs do get diabetes. Most cases occur in middle-aged dogs and cats. In dogs, females are affected twice as often as males, and incidence appears to be increased in certain small breeds such as Miniature Poodles, Dachshunds, Schnauzers, Cairn Terriers, and Beagles, suggesting a genetic component, but any breed can be affected. In one study, male cats were more commonly affected than females but there is no breed predilection seen in cats.

Diabetes results from decreased insulin production or secretion, which is usually caused by the destruction of certain cells in the pancreas, secondary to either immune destruction or severe pancreatitis in dogs, or amyloidosis (abnormal protein deposits) in cats, which occurs in some cats as they age. Insulin resistance and secondary diabetes mellitus are also seen in many dogs with hyperadrenocorticism (an endocrine disorder), and chronic administration of drugs such as corticosteroids or progesterone (in dogs) can predispose to diabetes mellitus. Obesity also predisposes to insulin resistance in both dogs and cats.

In her above response she does infer, “….secondary to either immune destruction or severe pancreatitis in dogs….”. Isn’t pancreatitis also induced by fatty diets? And aren’t dog owners with dogs who suffer pancreatitis advised to eat low fat foods (Ok, low fat, not low carbohydrate foods). But out of the 3 main nutrients in foods (fibre is not regarded as a 4th because it is a carbohydrate), can’t carbohydrates’ calories as well as proteins’ and fats’ same, contribute to conversion into fat if not expended?

Another source from Ingleburn Vet clinic states

“The causes of pancreatitis are not well understood.
In dogs it may be associated with a recent rich, fatty meal, or in some cases might be caused by drugs or toxins. In cats, viral infections are a possible cause.

Any dog of any age can be affected, but some dogs seem to be at greater risk:

Overweight dogs are at most risk.
Dogs fed fatty foods.
Dogs greater than 5 years old.
Dogs with diabetes or other endocrine diseases.
Females are at slightly more risk than males.
Schnauzers and terriers are at slightly more risk.”

You stated, “I don’t know if we have good data “pre commercial kibble era” to even start to compare! I also consider that the level of veterinary care that the family dog received was much different 50 years ago than it is today and that many maladies likely went undiagnosed.

I still maintain that this is a correlation and one that can be made in a number of contexts.

You could just as easily say “As the frequency of vaccination has increased over the past 40 years, so have “cases of pets that have become allergic, malnourished, infirm-prone, disease and cancer prone”.

Or “As the use of heartworm preventatives, flea and tick control products has increased over the last 40 years, so have “cases of pets that have become allergic, malnourished, infirm-prone, disease and cancer prone””………I know of a dog trainer who has spent a good 15 years visiting approximately 60,000 homes during that time, who from such empirical experiences came to the educated conclusion that from all the illnesses and diseases in dogs he came across, and in liaison with Vets, that it was the diets of those ill-fated dogs mostly being from fed grain riddled kibbles that coincided with the majority of cases of those same dogs with those illnesses and diseases.

Aren’t vaccinations’ constituents the dead viruses of what the vaccination is intended in immunising against? I, personally get the flu vaccination every year. My Pancreas or any other organ for that matter has not fallen to illness so far…knock on wood. Aren’t we, people, living longer lives? Isn’t heartworm, intestinal worm, flea and tick treatment medications just like human medications making us generally better. Now, I’m not saying that I have confidence in all the veterinary medications, and prefer more natural alternatives. However, I do deem from a layman’s perspective, de-worming meds safe. However, I am also skeptical on just how safe conventional flea and tick treatments actually are over long term use. Especially the topical versions.

Have you read the long term research that Richard Darlington claims to have been part of and witnessed, re diets playing a direct role in 95% of cases where canine illnesses improved with improved grain free diets. The thread he divulged this was under the “Dry Food and Cleaner Teeth” Article.

I’ve personally spoken to Dr. Ian Billinghurst over a phone conversation where he explains just as he does on his website and books, just how direct a role in cereal and grain riddled kibbles can contribute to numerous pet illnesses!

You quoted me, “…why use the synthetic version of vitamin K?” From another thread…” As it is actually not illegal to use natural sources of K1 and K2, why not use it, such as from rich green type vegetables?

You asked me, “You pointed out that in your opinion the carbohydrates in this diet are inferior. Can you expand on that? What do you consider a superior carbohydrate source and why?

You also stated that the protein source is inferior. What protein source would you rather see and why.”

That’s easy……Aren’t actual vegetables and fruits over grains superior sources of carbohydrates? Isn’t actual poultry meal a richer source of protein than poultry by-products? Mot to mention that by-products. Meat meals are much higher concentrates of protein than by-products.

You say in your next post addressed to a Michelle, that Dr. Becker couldn’t actually provide you with references to her claims. This is not uncommon as doctors and scientists often have theories gained from empirical practicing experiences forming in their minds of educated opinions on theories that are very likely with out finding that actual silver bullet. I would still put my money on such educated forms of opinion even with out direct evidence given that such professionals are in the game that they are in, day in day out, hence are more likely to be on the mark figuratively speaking than you or I.

http://DogFoodAdvisor.com Mike Sagman

No, Aimee… I did not misunderstand what you said. You must not have noticed the very first sentence where I cautioned you, “The following represents my response (April 27, 2010) to another reader with a similar question“. This was an unedited copy of my response to that reader.

Sure. Menadione is the only form of synthetic vitamin K approved by AAFCO for use in livestock feeds. However, what you fail to mention here is that AAFCO doesn’t need to “approve” natural sources of vitamin K (like kale, spinach, broccoli, Swiss chard, parsley, etc.).

What’s more, since most dog’s don’t even require a dietary source of the nutrient, AAFCO lists no requirement for vitamin K in either of its recognized growth or adult maintenance profile specifications (AAFCO Official Publication, 2008 Edition, page 132).

Aimee… You are certainly welcome to quote the NRC or AAFCO ( or any other “scientific” study you like). For that is your privilege.

However, I thought I had done a fairly satisfactory job of explaining why I chose to label menadione a “controversial” ingredient. To reiterate, the fact a synthetic form of vitamin K (menadione) has been banned from use in human supplements is reason enough for me to question its use in a dog food.

Once again, the very idea that a dogmatic belief in science (nutritionism) would allow anyone (lettered researcher or not) to find some isolated scientific paper (or book) to defend the use of a nutritionally unnecessary government-banned supplement without questioning its safety defies logic.

You may choose to dismiss this crucial fact in favor of another. But I choose to label this suspicious and unnatural ingredient (menadione) as what it really is… a controversial synthetic supplement.

aimee

Mike,

You misunderstood what I said. I didn’t say anything about “what versions of vitamin K can or cannot be sold in supplements, it appears you may be in error.”

What I did say was “I did read that K3 is the only Vit. K form approved by AAFCO”

And yes, if you inject menadione it will cause problems, and yes, if you ingest massive quantities of menadione (1000 times the NRC recommendation) it will cause problems. (Heck drink enough water and it will kill you).

From the farther of toxicology “All substances are poisons, there is none which is not a poison. The right dose differentiates a poison from a remedy.” (Paracelsus, 1493-1541)

You can label any ingredient you want as controversial. It is your site! Just as there are ingredients I may choose to avoid in pet foods that you don’t deem controversial, there are others that I’m perfectly comfortable with that you are not.

We are looking at the same information and coming to different conclusions. It is all fine, really. Provide information and let owners make informed choices. Let owners know it takes 1000 times the amount in food to be toxic. Let owners know menadione is rapidly metabolized and excreted and that there are no reports of toxicity at levels supplemented in the food. Let owners know NRC recommends it be supplemented in commercial foods.

From Nutrient Requirments of Dogs and Cats,2006 pg.211
” However as a precaution, the NRC (1985) suggested that 22 ug menadione/kg BW/day be added to the diets of adult dogs and 44 ug menadione/kg BW/day to diets of growing puppies.”

Jonathan

Again, I’d like to mention: who’s going to pay of these studies to “prove” that real food is superior to low quality ingredient carb pellets? If there is no way for a big company to make money (I don’t have an extra 10 million or so laying around) then there will never be such a study. That is what it’s come to. Big business has spent a lot of money (because they MAKE a lot of money) convincing millions of people that their products are better than nature and no one questions it. They watch the TV commercials and see the happy dogs playing fetch and buy the colorful bag of food that says “complete and balanced” on the front. We are a society of consumers that assume way too much and ask too few questions. Sooo, open your mouth and close your mind… and you will get a sad surprise.

aimee

Michelle,

I did read that article. I’m not sure why you wanted me too though.

I’m familiar with Dr. Karen Becker, and have read her book.
What is troublesome to me though is that she frequently makes statements for which there is no evidence. I have personally asked her to provide references for some of her statements and she has told me, through her receptionist, that she has no references, it is just what she believes.

http://www.drianbillinghurst.com Gordon

aimee – I’d be more than happy to address your latest questions to me, with enthusiastic anticipation, but will do so in about an hours time, because I’m currently on a job and I’m about to endeavour in some anticipated actions. I’ll reply soon.

http://DogFoodAdvisor.com Mike Sagman

Aimee… I had no trouble finding a reliable reference regarding menadione toxicity. The following represents my response (April 27, 2010) to another reader with a similar question…

The real question here is why pet food formulators even use synthetic vitamin K in the first place? After all, dogs do not require much vitamin K for survival. The natural versions of vitamin K (K1 and K2) can be easily added to a dog food in the form of natural ingredients (like kale, lettuce, spinach, Swiss chard, broccoli, etc.). And the normal intestinal flora are another rich and natural source of K1, too.

Also, regarding your claims about what versions of vitamin K can or cannot be sold in supplements, it appears you may be in error.

“In the U.S., vitamin K1 is available without a prescription in multivitamin and other supplements in doses that generally range from 10-120 mcg per supplement. A form of vitamin K2, menatetrenone (MK-4), has been used to treat osteoporosis in Japan and is currently under study in the United States.

Safety and Toxicity

Although allergic reaction is possible, there is no known toxicity associated with high doses of the phylloquinone (vitamin K1) or menaquinone (vitamin K2) forms of vitamin K ). The same is not true for synthetic menadione (vitamin K3) and its derivatives. Menadione can interfere with the function of glutathione, one of the body’s natural antioxidants, resulting in oxidative damage to cell membranes. Menadione given by injection has induced liver toxicity, jaundice, and hemolytic anemia (due to the rupture of red blood cells) in infants; therefore, menadione is no longer used for treatment of vitamin K deficiency. No tolerable upper level (UL) of intake has been established for vitamin K.”

Written in May 2004 by:
Jane Higdon, Ph.D.
Linus Pauling Institute
Oregon State University

On this website, we feel justified to have have classified menadione as (at the very least) a controversial dog food supplement. And since there are safer ways to introduce vitamin K into a dog’s diet, we feel it’s both fair and appropriate to list K3 as a controversial ingredient.

aimee

Yes, Mike,

This discussion about carbohydrates was never meant to be any form of commentary on your rating system. This is your site and you can rate foods by your criteria.
I operate under a different paradigm than you and that is OK : )

I appreciate that you have used this wording “ it is my “personal belief” that refined carbohydrates represent “a credible cause of the current canine obesity epidemic” and hope you will continue to do so in the future when posting on this topic.

Gordon,

“I guess I was jumping to conclusions with out attempted confirmation…..I thank you for being a blog cop of sorts”

I find this to be very common occurrence no matter what the forum. I’ll give you a hint that may save you some time in your future research. If I ask for a reference… it is because I am quite certain that one doesn’t exist ; )

I’m not quite sure what you were trying to say… but if you feed calories in excess of expenditure no matter what the source of those calories weight gain will occur. But remember diabetes in dogs is not diet induced. Obesity causes insulin resistance but the beta cells increase insulin production. For an obese dog to become diabetic there has to be loss of beta cells.

“Your intellectual capacity is impressive.” Thank you for that compliment: very kind.

“that it coincides with more cases of pets that have become allergic, malnourished, infirm-prone, disease and cancer prone, than that of the pre-commercial kibble era”

I don’t know if we have good data “pre commercial kibble era” to even start to compare! I also consider that the level of veterinary care that the family dog received was much different 50 years ago than it is today and that many maladies likely went undiagnosed.

I still maintain that this is a correlation and one that can be made in a number of contexts.

You could just as easily say “As the frequency of vaccination has increased over the past 40 years, so have “cases of pets that have become allergic, malnourished, infirm-prone, disease and cancer prone”.

Or “As the use of heartworm preventatives, flea and tick control products has increased over the last 40 years, so have “cases of pets that have become allergic, malnourished, infirm-prone, disease and cancer prone”

“…why use the synthetic version of vitamin K?” From another thread…

6.Menadione: Mike is correct that there is no AFFCO requirement for Vit K, but NRC has recommended it be added to the diet. I have not seen any diet supplemented with K1or K2. Mike, are there any that you are aware of? Most companies seem to just leave it out altogether. I did read that K3 is the only Vit. K form approved by AAFCO so perhaps this is why added K1 and K2 are not found in food. If a company decides to follow NRC recommendations the choices are to technically break the law, or use menadione.

There is a report on pubmed of a cat which hemorrhaged out and died when fed a high fish diet without supplemental Vit K. This doesn’t by any means seem a common occurrence. But maybe this report coupled with NRC recommendations leads some companies to include this ingredient. NRC reports that it a “metabolized and excreted rapidly” I wouldn’t think this builds up in the body leading to toxicity.
Since you can not prove a negative, could you please direct me to a published reference that links menadione as supplemented in food to toxicity? I can’t find any. Nor have I found any PhD nutritionists or ACVN’s say it isn’t safe.

Gordon,
You pointed out that in your opinion the carbohydrates in this diet are inferior. Can you expand on that? What do you consider a superior carbohydrate source and why?

You also stated that the protein source is inferior. What protein source would you rather see and why.

Meagan

Haha nice.

Mike P

Meagan , bike riding is great exercise for both of you . My question is … Does your dog use training wheels on his bike ? Does your dog have those blocks on the pedals or can he reach them on his own ? Anyway keep biking and good eating !!

Jonathan

I just talk down to my dog until she has poor self-esteem and then eats a lot of diet pills and purges.

Lol just kidding. We play “super fetch”. My fiance and I throw the ball across the yard between each other, which puts Sadie in a constant run for as long as she can stand it.

Meagan

I bike ride with my dog. Its great exercise for both of us. I also walk daily and take her to run in fields when I can.

Mike P

I’m with Antonio on keeping a dog fit and lean . I carefully measure every serving of food I give and also exersise her daily , no matter what the weather . Snow , rain , cold ,heat .Doesn’t matter , dogs thrive on exercise and a purpose in life . So many people feed great food and walk the dog twice a week . They let them out in the yard for an hour where they take a nice nap in the sun . Any happy healthy dog has good nutrition , and lots of activity / exercise . They go hand in hand .

I know I said I was going to lunch, but one more thing to note. While I’m not saying Purina dog food is by far the best stuff out there, they did do one of the most important research’s in the history of Pet Food and that was the test to see how long dog’s average eating their products. For me the test didn’t prove that Purina products are so great, but it did prove one of my philosophy’s and that is DO NOT overfeed your animal and keep them at a ideal weight, those factors I believe are the major contributors to longetivity in our dogs, which is likely the reason our grandparents had dogs living the long lifes they were able to sustain at a time when pet care wasn’t on a family’s list of things to do for sure.

Antonio

Jonathan

Antonio

P.S. @ Jonath, you really make me put my thinking cap on thru the day on this blog LOL.. Keep up the good work and research bro.

Antonio

Raw meat was part of our diet millions of years ago, but we have been using fire to cook foods for long enough that we have evolved the need for foods to be cooked.

Sooo based on your observation of things we have evolved to a point that we can nutritionally eat cooked meats over raw meats, but somehow animals “mammals, ominvores” like dogs don’t have this same capability do nutritionally digest a cooked grain? I’m going get some lunch so if I’m delayed on the reply I’ll be back in a hour or so. Also when doing nutrient absorption test on pet food “i.e. checking a dog’s stool to see how much it absorbed in it’s intestine, versus what wasn’t passed thru a bowel movement”, how is it possible that these nutrients can be absorbed in a system unable to digest them? Just a principle question.

Jonathan

Raw meat was part of our diet millions of years ago, but we have been using fire to cook foods for long enough that we have evolved the need for foods to be cooked. We have evidence that we were controlling fire 300,000 to 400,000 years ago. Raw veggies are harder to digest and cause a lot of gas. Raw meats can be dangerous because we lack the proper defences against some of the bacterias that can infiltrate them. As far as grains go, they are actually toxic when not cooked, and being that they are really just grass seeds, they only appear for a short time. The process of gathering them is very important, as is the growing. You have to create an unnatural habitat where only the type of grass you want can grow. Then, when harvested, the grain must be in some way processed and cooked in order to use. And even after cooking, grains still contain various mycotoxins. The most starchy thing primitive man would have eaten would be root veggies and seasonal fruit.

Antonio

As I’ve stated MANY times on here, I don’t have a problem w/ raw fed dogs, I actually feed my dog leftover “cooked” meat that I don’t eat. But I do have a problem when others try to force their OPINIONS down the throat of others on the issue and make it become absolute truth. The fact remains that many dogs eating Purina and other foods like it “grain-based”, are living just as long and healthy as those eating 5-star grain free and raw prey model based diets. Until the statistics began to show that one choice is CLEARLY better than the other I think people will continously use their better judgement and proceed to use what has worked for them.

Antonio

Jonathan I’m not playing devil’s advocate here, and I’m not a scientist, I’m not batting for Purina in any way, shape, or form, I’m dealing w/ the issues of grains on this subject. I don’t have enough proof to debunk that man didn’t eat grains consistently until about 12,000 years ago, about 10,000 BC, but I think that wasn’t b/c we weren’t meant to eat them but most likely do to the fact man didn’t start doing agricultural work and living in communities instead of being nomads until about that time frame, so gardening would have been out of the question. It’s also important to note that people didn’t began eating many of the different meat based proteins until long after this period also. So would one assume that eating raw meat is how people were meant to eat meat?

http://DogFoodAdvisor.com Mike Sagman

Hi Everyone… The dramatic increase in the use of grains and refined carbohydrates in dog food products coincided with the invention in 1956 of the extrusion process used to make kibble.

http://drianbillinghurst.com Gordon

I dont mind being corrected at all Antonio, and if I agree, you can bet I’m man enough to admit it. However, I’m going more on the general consensus of kibble’s birth rather than established literature of its birth confirmation. Such general consensus I speak of, also comes from professionals just like the Doctors I mentioned. As much as I read, which is quite a lot, one can never read enough, and there is also so many different aspects and angles on just one subject, that people can read about. So whether kibble’s birth was 1894 or the 1940, I don’t think this is too significant to distort my point. It’s a bit like knit picking, but your point is also taken, although to be honest, I’m not really concerned with when kibble whether first born by Purina or otherwise, was born, as I still believe its birth nonetheless or should I say, its popularity hence use, coincides with sicker pets over the course of kibble diet inclusion.

Jonathan

This is my last input with this conversation, as Aimee seems capable of digging up all sorts of obscure research (most of which are probably funded in one way or another by a big pet-food company… who else is going to pay for research?).

Dogs have no dietary requirement for refined carbohydrates. None. Not one need. Not sorta don’t. Not maybe a little. None. Zero. There is no “essential carb”. So when you are dealing with any kibble, the carb is just a cheap filler (cheaper than meat that is) and the binder that alows a kibble to become a kibble. So with that knowledge, the less crappy the carb filler is, the better the food is. and the less carbs in general, the better.

This food is made almost entirely from industrial waste. There is hardly any actual meat in it. It is a pile of trash. This, IMO, is not disputable, no matter how much Purina spends on research and advertising to claim otherwise. Sorry.

Antonio

Gordon, I hate to do this to you since Aimee already got you one time, but facts are facts. You stated and I’ll copy/paste

Having said all this, and like others here and elsewhere have said, it is too much of a coincidence that since the birth of synthetically compiled dog food being kibble, since 50 to 60 years ago, that it coincides with more cases of pets that have become allergic, malnourished, infirm-prone, disease and cancer prone, than that of the pre-commercial kibble era, according to many Vets,

Commercial dog food has been around MUCH longer than this, heck Purina was actually founded in 1894 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nestl%C3%A9_Purina_PetCare, but I think it’s still a possibility that your right b/c most people didn’t start buying commercially available pet food until about 50 – 60 years ago.

http://drianbillinghurst.com Gordon

As promised aimee, I’m getting back to you regarding one of your questions that was addressed to me.

By the way, thanks for making me do some extra reading and research (Not being disingenuous as I enjoy extra reading), although I’ve been unable to devote too much of it, on topic since your last post. Nonetheless, I can’t find any “smoking gun”, let alone a “silver bullet” linking carbohydrates to pancreatic problems in dogs, nor cats, hence I retract the “….as it already proven in cats.” portion of my sentence you quoted.

I guess I was jumping to conclusions with out attempted confirmation. However, out of the 3 main nutrients here, carbohydrate is the largest in the pie. Given that the majority of this food’s carbohydrates come from inferior grain based ingredients that make up the high level of carbohydrates, it might be fair to say, as speculation with good and popular reason only, that the calories derived from same, as well as the inferior fat source of generic animal fat and the protein source of poultry by-product, which are all in this food in place of better quality counterparts, with out the balance of the missing better quality or superior counterparts’ nutritional values, still all have calories from such sources that are inferior, and unless the dog who eats this food is given an opportunity in burning these calories sufficiently, then it may be also fair to say that such calories (probably more so, from the higher carb content), would eventually convert to fat and because high fat is as you know linked to pancreatic problems in both dogs and cats, could be fairly suspected that in this way, carbs could indeed contribute to canine diabetes, just like in humans.

Again, I thank you for being a blog cop of sorts, and pointing out my overzealous ill-factual comment in an appropriate and civil manner in which you do quite well.

Your intellectual capacity is impressive and is actually very stimulating and even attractive (Yes I know you’re married and no I’m not trying to sweet talk you). It is a genuine compliment. I don’t mind and even like when women can prove their intellectual capacity that can more than match my own.

Having said all this, and like others here and elsewhere have said, it is too much of a coincidence that since the birth of synthetically compiled dog food being kibble, since 50 to 60 years ago, that it coincides with more cases of pets that have become allergic, malnourished, infirm-prone, disease and cancer prone, than that of the pre-commercial kibble era, according to many Vets, including Dr. Ian Billinghurst, Dr. Tom Lonsdale, Dr. Karen Becker, and even many in well known advanced industrialised and scientific disciplined countries such as Germany, which first comes to mind.

Whats more, and this question I have, as others have already asked before, why use the synthetic version of vitamin K?

In conclusion aimee, your point is very well received, but personally, I am unmoved on my belief that this food is any good at all. I wouldn’t even give it an extra half star.

dena beebe

i am using purina one beyond. my english bulldogg is doing great on it! so is my ten yr old lab.

Bob K

Anna – Purina One is a 1.5 star food. For the same money you can get many 3 and 4 Star foods that would probide better nutrition to your loved pet and leave more money in your pocket.

Anna

Health wise, this can get 2.5 stars.

http://www.drianbillinghurst.com Gordon

aimee – I’m only going to address your questions related to my comments that you quoted. I’m also going to, but not now, as it’s early Monday morning in Sydney and I’ve been dozing on and off and I’m not back on my job until 1pm, defend, elaborate, or correct my comments because my thought process is currently vulnerable given my fatigue and time of morning here. But I do believe, I stated my comments were based on belief and not fact, contrary to what you just claimed. Unless of course I’m misreading what you just commented on? Anyway good night for now or good morning, depending on where you are. Ciao for now.

http://DogFoodAdvisor.com Mike Sagman

Aimee… In my professional lifetime, I’ve watched as the fickle pendulum of “science” has wobbled like a drunken sailor from one “fact” to another.

For example, medical science first blamed diet as the primary cause of peptic ulcers.

It then pointed a condemning finger to anxiety and stress as the main cause of the condition.

Next, medicine moved on to cite a patient’s overproduction of stomach acid as the primary suspect. And feverishly began producing a number of inhibitory drugs to suppress acid production.

Yet in the end, it was a simple bacterial infection (H. pylori) that’s now considered the primary cause of peptic ulcers.

So, until proven otherwise, popular or not, it is my “personal belief” that refined carbohydrates represent “a credible cause of the current canine obesity epidemic”.

Until science proves the superiority of a human engineered (and profit-driven) carbohydrate rich design over Nature, I will continue to use a biologically appropriate model based upon a dog’s natural ancestral diet as my gold standard.

On this website, compared with its peers within any given category (dry, wet, raw), the further any product deviates from that natural model and the lower the quality of the raw materials used to make it, the lower that product’s rating will be.

Nature. Real meat. Raw food. Biologically appropriate recipes. High protein. Moderate fat. Low carbohydrates. These are the hallmarks I find most compelling in a dog food.

In closing, although I realize that by downplaying the role of carbohydrates in the etiology of obesity you’re not writing here to intentionally impugn my rating system, I feel it’s important to address this issue in order to justify my admitted bias against today’s carbohydrate heavy recipes.

Thanks for your well-written response.

aimee

Mike,
I assumed since you said “modern studies……” That you had read some and I just couldn’t find them!

I usually am pretty good at finding information but I found few studies that look at diet composition and obesity in dogs. I found those two Romsos studies and a reference to Borne et al 1996 in which overweight dogs lost more weight when an isocaloric diet contained fewer calories as fat was fed. Then I came upon all the “moderate fat fed dog model” literature. In this study that model is explained. A mere 8 percent increase in the percentage of calories fed as fat ( no increase in total calories fed) resulted in a twofold increase in body fat.http://diabetes.diabetesjournals.org/content/52/10/2453.long

“although it’s easy to question my assumption that carbohydrates play an important role in the etiology of obesity, I must question your implied assumption that they don’t.”

I never said they don’t play any role, If you feed an overabundance of calories from any nutrient, in excess of energy expenditure, weight gain will occur.

What we can definitively say though is that studies regarding diet composition and body fat do not support the idea that feeding a high proportion of calories as carb leads to increased body fat or weight gain. In fact it is quite the opposite.

“And that dietary fat is the primary (and only) cause of adiposity”.
I never said that though did I? I have only reported the data I found and asked you for data I might have missed.

Dietary composition is only one of many factors, and in my opinion likely a very small one, that have contributed to the ever increasing waistlines of dogs.

“Are you suggesting here we overlook any potential link…” I’m saying we should not put undue emphasis on it, as correlation doesn’t mean causation. There is a study published which shows the clear correlation between priest’s salaries and the price of beer. Does that mean raising priest’s salaries drove the price of beer up, because priests had more money to spend on beer and drank so much as to shift the supply/ demand curve?

“If this is what you believe, Aimee…” It is not about belief, it is what the evidence supports.

“why don’t you cite a scientific study that proves unequivocally that carbohydrates are NOT the primary cause of the current canine obesity epidemic” As you very well know Mike, science can never prove a negative. I can not prove unequivocally that the Loch Ness monster does not exist. So since what you are asking is impossible, we are left with the possible, which is for you to cite a study in which carbohydrates in diets are implicated in obesity. But as you said you can not find any such study.

We can look to the studies that have been done regarding obesity in dogs and those discount the type of food fed in the role of obesity.( Edney and Smith, 1986, Kienzle 1998) Factors that have been identified point to what Mellissa brought up, “heavy handed owners overfeeding” and “failing to provide enough excercise to the dogs.” which is the other side of the coin.

Antonia pointed out that neutering is a risk factor for weight gain. I’m certain that the percentage of dogs neutered today is far far above the percentage of dogs neutered prior to the introduction of commercial foods. So this could well play a factor. Additionally, there has been a shift to an indoor living lifestyle with a resultant decrease in exercise.

Jonathon.. I realize this is a common belief ….Diabetes? cancer? arthritis? all these body failures can be attributed to the sudden introduction of grains into our diet. If all due to grain, why then is the occurrence of all these things very low in Japan where the diet is very high in rice. As their diet though is being “westernized” the incidence of these maladies is increasing as well.

Gordon,
What is the link between pancreatic problems and carbohydrates? Pancreatitis in dogs has been linked to dietary fat, not carbs, and is treated/prevented with very high carb, low fat diet.

“…probably eventual cases of diabetes in dogs as it already proven in cats.”

Please provide a reference here. I can not find research that even remotely suggests it is proven that carbs cause diabetes in cats. Neutering and high fat diets not high carb are risk factors for obesity in cats “These data provide evidence that in cats, high dietary fat, but not carbohydrate, induces weight gain and a congruent increase in insulin.” http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/17524182

I understand the belief that carbohydrates are responsible for obesity and related health problems in dogs is a popular one. But even as Mike has admitted, there is no research to support that belief. It would be prudent when discussing this idea to present it as a personal belief and not as fact.

Jonathan

I don’t “feel good” about giving horse grains. lol Really, though. No animal eats grains. Most are toxic if uncooked, and we, last I checked, are the only animals that have figured cooking out… And sure, oats are eaten raw… and of all grains, it seems to be the least toxic, and “gluten free”, although avenin protein seems to have a very similar effect on the body. But oats are still toxic none the less. really, I am interested in what ALL animals evolved eating vs what they are being FED by us. I’ll look into horses further when I have the time.

melissa

I believe there are many different avenues we take with our animals that lead to obesity and I do believe the number 1 culprit is the owners. Every animal is different, they have different metabolisms, and those things change over the years(most dogs I see in this area that are obese are middle age and up). The owners continue to feed them as if they were a high energy, growing pup and fail to see the weight gain until their 20lb beagle is now 50lbs.

I have fed high protein, low protein, high fat, low fat, high carbs, low carbs, the list goes on. The only dogs that have ever been overweight are those that I have overfed based on what they had “been eating”. Each food has a feeding requirement just for that purpose.

Jonathan-

Many things have been added to the diet of animals in general that may not be “found in the wild” so to speak, but I do not know that we can blame obesity on just carbs. Take horses for example-true herbivores-they eat grass. Its unnatural for them to have grain, but we humans feel good about giving it to them. Carbs are not a natural part of their diet, but most tend to gain weight from the carb loads. However, drafts are a stand out from this crowd. They can develop a condition that results in severe weight loss from too many carbs-one could argue “Aha, they need the natural grazing diet to thrive” This would only be half true-in order to get them to gain weight and muscle, you actually have to “fat load”-a minimum of 25 percent of their cals a day from FAT(unnatural)

My whole point being is that one can not point the finger at any one singular aspect of obesity when each animal is uniquely different. What causes weight gain/loss in one is not the same for another : )

http://www.drianbillinghurst.com Gordon

I think it’s common sense about exercise being an integral part of burning calories/energy and also fat if calories are left to turn into fat which is the inevitable when allowed to occur with out a regular routine of exercise in both humans and dogs, and most mammals for that matter.

But I have to agree with Jonathan and Mike on the fact that the increase in domestic canine and feline health issues and in particular, pancreatic problems, obesity and suspected possible onset of probable diabetes sometime down the track, have dramatically elevated in cases since the introduction of kibble to such pets’ diets since about the 1940’s even.

I think, just like it was suspected that smoking in humans was commonly linked to lung cancer for many years until that “silver bullet” in direct evidence famously and finally was provided back in I think 1998 or roundabouts (with out looking it up), which finally put to rest any doubts that smoking can indeed cause lung cancer as well as other smoking related diseases.

It’s just a matter of time before actual linkable scientific evidence will be set in concrete re direct links of excessive carbohydrates to causing obesity and probably eventual cases of diabetes in dogs as it already proven in cats.

Antonio

Jonathan, congrats on the weight loss, and hopefully the weight loss is true body mass/fat, and not 23 pounds of water weight which is generally what happens w/ a rapid weight loss, but however congrats on the accomplishment. I think most of you know I tend to side w/ Melissa’s point of view in the fact that most animals & people for that point don’t get enough exercise. We can point our fingers back and forth over the debate of grains vs fat, but over feeding of both are mistakes, and the fact is most of us overfeed our pets and ourselves, while minimizing daily exercise to walking to the restroom. Another thing that should be noted while many disagree on this as well, is that I’ve noticed a vast amount of dog(s), they have been spayed/neutered tend to be prone to weight gain as well which can and does often lead to a variety of other health issues down the road. Case and point it’s common practice to casterate a male boar to help speed up his weight gain/fattening process before taking him to the market for sale, b/c the increased bulk/fat will bring in more money based on the $ per lb received for his meat.

Jonathan

Melissa, there is some truth to that… Dogs need exercise, and food should be measured. Okay. But from my own experience, in the last 3 weeks I have stopped eating all man-made carbs. I eat only animal protein and fat, veggies, and some fruit. Note that I have not made any net changed to my caloric intake. I lost 23 pounds and got off my stomach Rx which I’ve been on for over 2 years. Let me reiterate that it has been only 3 weeks. You know that the problem is even with many of the better kibbles? They STILL contain starchy carbohydrates in an unnatural proportion. 30% is too much. And I know that someone is going to say dogs are not people. Yeah, I know that. They are even LESS capable of using carbs, which is evident from their biological construct. Even beyond just the teeth and intestines argument, how would wild dogs eat a diet where more calories came from grains and potato than meat? Did they use to have thumbs and small equipment know-how to process grains into edible items like flour and bread? Being able to survive on vegetables and small amounts of found fruit is hugely different that eating refined man-made carbohydrates. There is no way in hell that this sudden food change has not had negative effects on dogs. And us. Grains are ripe with antinutrients. One group, Phytates, actually binds to calcium, magnesium, iron, copper and zinc and inhibits the absorption of these items. And lectins in legumes are extremely inflammatory and cause a host of problems.

melissa

With all due respect to both of you(and I enjoy your back and forth immensily presenting different sides of the proverbial coin) I do not believe there are enough studies available to prove either statement. (fats vs carbs)

I do not believe that either is the main cause of obesity in the canine world, but rather heavy handed owners overfeeding and failing to provide enough excercise to the dogs.

Jonathan

Aimee, both dogs and people have never eaten grains or any other calorically dense starchy carbohydrate in our entire evolutionary history up until 10,000 years ago for people, and about 80 years ago for dogs. Both of these time frames are nothing compared to the time required by evolution to restructure an entire animal’s biological requirements to fit around a new food-stuff. Sure, dogs and people can live off of the stuff we concoct. But at what cost? Diabetes? cancer? arthritis? all these body failures can be attributed to the sudden introduction of grains into our diet. And it got worse for us when we started feeding our livestock grains. There is nothing good about grains for omnivores, be they man or beast.

http://DogFoodAdvisor.com Mike Sagman

Aimee… Let’s disregard my previous statements about diabetes. For that is not the primary purpose of this website. And obviously, not my area of expertise.

Instead, let’s focus on obesity. And particularly the role of carbohydrates in its etiology.

When searching the literature, I find the number of studies proving the true scientific cause of canine obesity to be unexpectedly scarce and inconclusive.

And (unfortunately) that includes any definitive link between carbohydrates and obesity you asked me to reference.

However, although it’s easy to question my assumption that carbohydrates play an important role in the etiology of obesity, I must question your implied assumption that they don’t.

And that dietary fat is the primary (and only) cause of adiposity.

Are you suggesting here we overlook any potential link between the dramatically growing number of obese dogs and the introduction of commercial dog foods that are historically high in refined carbohydrates?

Should we simply write off the dramatic increase in obesity and the concurrent rise in the use of these popular carb-heavy commercial recipes as mere coincidence? Should we ignore any possibility of something more than just an arbitrary relationship between the two?

If this is what you believe, Aimee… then why don’t you cite a scientific study that proves unequivocally that carbohydrates are NOT a credible cause of the current canine obesity epidemic.

For if you do, you’ll also be impugning Nature. And all biologically appropriate dog foods (including raw feeding plans)… menus which universally attempt to mimic a dog’s natural (low carbohydrate) ancestral diet.

aimee

Mike,
Frankly, I was surprised to read this as well.” There is no evidence… that obesity is a risk factor for canine diabetes.” because I too have seen diabetes lumped into lists of conditions associated with obesity in dogs but association doesn’t mean causality.
Even the study you cite, Lund (2006), makes this clear: “A relative risk estimate does not necessarily reflect a causal relationship (for example, that obesity causes diabetes mellitus),

Rand 2004 does allude to the association by virtue of altered lipid profiles in obese animals. The authors suggest that this in combination with a high fat diet contribute to the development of pancreatitis which predisposes diabetes. You can see in Lund that the relative risk of diabetes parallels that of pancreatitis.

Interestingly enough we have quoted from the same authors, but in the more recent 2004 article that I cited they make it clear that the diet recommendation for the prevention of diabetes refers to cats only” Low carbohydrate, high-protein diets may help prevent diabetes in cats at risk such as obese cats or lean cats with underlying low insulin sensitivity.” Whereas in regards to dietary factors and dogs they report “Environmental factors such as feeding of high-fat diets are potentially associated with pancreatitis and likely play a role in the development of pancreatitis in diabetic dogs”.

Mike, will you please cite a canine study here? “most modern studies support the scientific evidence that carbohydrates are the single greatest factor in the cause of obesity in both humans and dogs” I can not find ANY studies, not a single one, supporting the idea that carbohydrates “are the single greatest cause of obesity” in this species. I understand your reasoning regarding carbohydrates and insulin, but based on the published studies the expected fat deposition simply does not occur in the dog. In every study I have seen in dogs, obesity is associated with dietary fat. In Romsos, 1976, the dogs on the highest carbohydrate diets had the lowest percentage of body fat. That bears repeating, the dogs fed the higest composition of their diet as carbohydrates 62%, in the form of corn starch. a high glycemic starch, had the least body fat. Body fat composition increased with increasing calories fed as fat in the diet (isocaloric basis). In Romsos, 1978, dogs were fed isocaloric diets and when a higher percentage of those calories were fed as fat, body weight had increased compared to feeding those calories as carbs.

When studying glucose and insulin responses in dogs, it seems across the board that moderate fat diets are used to induce obesity. This is called the “moderate fat fed dog model.” Dogs are fed an increased proportion of their calories as fat and a decreased proportion as carbs to induce obesity. If carbohydrates were the greatest factor in causing obesity wouldn’t researchers have a high carb fed fat dog model??

In West 1998, Dietary Fat, Genetic Predisposition and Obesity: Lessons from Animal models. “It is evident from animal experiments that the percentage of energy derived from fat in the diet is positively correlated with body fat content. With few exceptions, obesity is induced by high-fat diets in monkeys, dogs, pigs, hamsters, squirrels, rats, and mice” Furthermore “In contrast with the animal studies, studies in humans that have examined the relation between dietary fat content and body fat are inconclusive”

Dogs and humans respond differently which is why I’m asking you to cite a canine study, not human, in regards to carbs causing obesity.

“It would be foolhardy to ignore the potential link between chronic canine diabetes and the historically high amount of refined carbohydrates introduced into today’s dog foods about 50 years ago”. Of course, as you know, correlation does NOT mean causation and there have been many changes in canine husbandry over the last 50 years that could account for the changes we are seeing.

http://DogFoodAdvisor.com Mike Sagman

Aimee… First, I’d like to remind you I’m only responsible for the single remark you reference here calling diabetes “rampant” in the human and dog populations. The other comment was posted by another reader.

I can understand your questioning my claim regarding type 2 diabetes in dogs. After all, it appears type 2 diabetes is not commonly found in dogs (but it is with cats).

In any case, I was surprised to read in that article “that obesity is (not) a risk factor for canine diabetes”. The scientific literature clearly refutes that claim.

Numerous studies and articles published in multiple peer-reviewed journals confirm the fact that obesity is a significant risk factor for diabetes mellitus.

In a 2006 article by researchers at the College of Veterinary Medicine at the University of Minnesota and the Advanced Research Department of Hill’s Pet Nutrition and published in The International Journal of Applied Research in Veterinary Medicine, the authors concluded:

“The prevalence of combined overweight and obesity in domestic canine populations has been reported to range from 23% to 41%. Other studies in canine pet populations have found relationships between canine obesity and musculoskeletal disorders, cardiovascular problems, glucose intolerance and diabetes mellitus and bladder and mammary cancer.”

That same article goes on to provide a more specific association between obesity and diabetes:

“An obese dog is 2.6 times more likely to be diagnosed with diabetes compared with an adult dog of normal/underweight body condition (all other factors being equal).”

In another 2006 article Nutrition by Klinkenberg et al in the Journal of Nutrition, the authors found:

“Obesity has been proven to be a significant risk factor in feline type 2 diabetes and is thought to account for the variations in insulin responses in all types of diabetic dogs.”

In 2003, Rand et al from the Centre for Companion Animal Health, School of Veterinary Science, The University of Queensland reported in the Asia Pacific Journal of Nutrition:

“Consumption of diets with low carbohydrate, high protein, and moderate fat content may be advantageous for prevention and management of obesity, impaired glucose tolerance, and diabetes in cats and dogs.”

It appears the literature is flush with studies linking obesity with diabetes. Yet the debate of what mechanism actually causes obesity itself remains controversial.

In the past, there’s been considerable disagreement (even in much more frequently studied human populations). However, for proof, you need to look no further than the vast catalog of human diet books currently in print.

Since the late 1970s, most experts have blamed obesity on the consumption of dietary fat while others cite excessive calories. But the most modern studies support the scientific evidence that carbohydrates are the single greatest factor in the cause of obesity in both humans and dogs.

My understanding is based upon the physiologic fact that the high glycemic index associated with refined carbohydrates causes a rapid increase in blood insulin… which (in turn) induces the deposition of excess body fat.

And excess body fat is associated with dogs suffering from a myriad of serious chronic diseases including diabetes mellitus.

It would be foolhardy to ignore the potential link between chronic canine diabetes and the historically high amount of refined carbohydrates introduced into today’s dog foods about 50 years ago.

Solom Fay

Tis stuff is da worst crap food ever!! it killed ma baby staf. She was only 5 mannnn. to me she was ma baby! get away from tis crap dudes seriosly

aimee

Many interesting points in this conversation.

I’m a bit puzzled as to where the following statments come from.
“Dogs are becoming diabetic for the first time in their history and it’s because of the trash carb fillers that companies like Purina put in their food.”

“Has anyone here noticed the scientific fact that the human (and dog) population are rampant with Type 2 diabetes?”

I know everyone here prides themselves on providing accurate information. In reviewing causes of diabetes in dogs I can’t find any references to carbohydrates causing diabetes in dogs or that type 2 diabetes is prevelent in the canine population.

” There is no evidence that type 2 diabetes occurs in dogs or that obesity is a risk factor for canine diabetes.”

The article is a nice review of the causes of diabetes. Yet I see no mention of carbohydrates in this review as contributing to diabetes in dogs so I’d be very interested in seeing the reference that supports the idea that “Dogs are becoming diabetic for the first time in their history and it’s because of the trash carb fillers ”

Thanks in advance,

Mary Lou

Cathy ~ he is presently eating Nature’s Variety Instinct canned duck; so I was going to try their brand of frozen raw. However, the folks at the store suggested Stella and Chewys Duck, Duck, Goose. Gave him a taste tonight and he threw it up ~ ha ~ may be slow going.

ShamelessRawFoodie

Mike – So Very Cool… that you’ve added some of Dr Karen Becker’s videos to your website!

MaryLou – Glad to know I gave you some insight into raw feeding. I’m curious to know the brand of commercial raw that you choose to feed, as well as an update as to how the transition to raw goes for you and your spoiled rotten bichon.

Jonathan

Hey Cathy! Thanks for the use of your catchphrase.

Mary Lou

Shameless (Cathy) ~ I was wondering to myself where did she go. I just want to say thanks to you. Due to your insight, I have changed the way our pup eats. About a month ago, I removed all kibble from his diet. He has been eating totally 5 star wet food. But now ~ after listening to you, and Dr. Becker, we are taking the next step to commercial raw. Three months ago ~ I would never have even thought about giving our spoiled rotten bichon anything raw. Amazing! I just hope he, and his tummy, likes it. : )

Welcome back Cathy, hope you enjoy your vacation, I was thinking the same when I took two weeks out of the country vacation just isn’t longg enough, but I was happy to be back b/c I was missing my dog(s).

ShamelessRawFoodie

Hey all – I’m baaaack. Thanks for missing me; went on a long vacation…… but not long enough!
I can see I got back just in time for a lively Purina banter.
Jonathan, You can always use my line:
!Nutrition isn’t rocket science!

Thawk

To Mike and Johnathan’s points about the vet schools having some bias are correct. The large companies throw freebies to the vet students. My point is Purina One is the food the dietitian gives her dogs. If it was literally toxic as some have suggested, I doubt she would do so. This person is without a doubt a highly intelligent scientist; the merit of this should not be demeaned just because Purina gives vet students free pens and binders. There are certainly better foods out there but to call Purina toxic is a bit much. Regardless of quips about their teeth, dogs are by any honest measure opportunistic omnivorous that likely adjust their diets based on their lifestyle. My dog does not have the same dietary demands as a wolf. As I said, some people want to make this an argument about worldview. They have a romanticized vision of their dogs as timber wolves when in reality, if left to their own devices, most of our dogs would eat rancid carrion and whatever else they could find to keep themselves alive. Also related to worldview is the pathetic rhetoric about the superiority of organic or natural products. The thing that always kills me is that these products tend to be worse environmentally and socially.

Antonio

Moderation is the key. Your right, 50% carb load is a lot, but the natural lifespan of animals consuming ALL MEAT isn’t that high either. I know many factors come into play like environment lack of vetinary care, etc.. but the fact remains that a wild dog & wolf in their NATURAL environment live much shorter than do our domestic friends. So this topic will always be opinionated at best until the tables turn and MEAT eating carnivores start to experience a longer life than our domesticated carb eating companions.

http://DogFoodAdvisor.com Mike Sagman

Has anyone here noticed the scientific fact that the human (and dog) population are rampant with Type 2 diabetes? It’s a real epidemic in geographic areas that consume a modern Western diet. And people didn’t eat like this prior to the last century.

The facts contained in this book (and others like it) point a condemning finger directly at the high refined carbohydrate diet worshiped by humans in the past 100+ years. Not 6,000.

A diet boasting a 50% carbohydrate content is nowhere near a dog’s natural ancestral diet. For this reason, I urge everyone to read Gary Taube’s scholarly book, “Why We Get Fat”.

LOL !Nutrition isn’t rocket science!,, that definately sounds like Cathy, is she the one posting under ShamelessRawFoodie now? I agree to some extent about the grain thing although I’ve found personaly eating grains in proper portions w/ daily excercise isn’t a bad thing. I haven’t had issues w/ my health from consuming grains neither have any my dog(s) past/present. I think the problem w/ anything is overconsumption, and grains in overconsumption would definately cause a problem, but people have eaten grains well over 6,000 years while some might argue that’s not a long time on a planetary calendar, it still proves that diabetes didn’t run rampid from eating grains until our lifestyles began to mimic that of a starfish (no longer mobile), that we began to run into a host of problems healthwise.

Jonathan

Where the hell is Cathy, anyways? Hey Cathy, I’m using your line, okay?

!Nutrition isn’t rocket science!

Jonathan

“You miss understood me Jonathan, I was referring to the lifetime study on Golden retrievers that Purina did w/ their Dog Chow line, not the AAFCO standards”

Yes, Antonio, that’s why I went on to say..

“If you mean to say that Purina an Hill’s perform their own “life time” tests, it has nothing to do with AAFCO and everything to do with seeing how cheap they can make their food and have it still keep a dog alive. Also, I am not impressed with any company that keeps companion animals as test-mules. Iams in particular gained notoriety for the awful conditions in which their animals lived. Plus, I don’t think a food trial is necessary UNLESS you are concocting something completely unnatural and have to figure out “what works”. Dogs are scientifically noted to be meat-bias and therefor grains would be the furthest thing from natural foods for them. We shouldn’t even be eating grains, and we are much closer to the conventional definition of “omnivore” than dogs are. We are hunter-gatherers. Dogs are hunters that CAN eat grasses and fruits they come across, but usually only when meat is scarce.”

Antonio

“Antonio, AAFCO feed trials are not “life-span” tests.

“AAFCO feeding trials consist of at least eight dogs being fed the same diet for a mere 26 weeks (approximately six months). ”

You miss understood me Jonathan, I was referring to the lifetime study on Golden retrievers that Purina did w/ their Dog Chow line, not the AAFCO standards that were created for Purina. But you would have to wonder, if the AAFCO guidelines are not important why do ALL companies make sure it’s clearly written on the packaging somewhere, I don’t think it’s mandated by law that all pet food be AAFCO approved. I know this discussion could go on for days.. I’ve saw it both ways, dogs thrive on horrible ingredients as oppose to the better ingredients and visa versa, in the end you still have to find what works best for your particular dog. And make sure your getting the animal plenty of excercise and outdoor fun.

Jonathan

Antonio, AAFCO feed trials are not “life-span” tests.

“AAFCO feeding trials consist of at least eight dogs being fed the same diet for a mere 26 weeks (approximately six months). During this time, 25% of the dogs (so, two animals) can be removed from the test and the dogs eating the food can lose up to 15% of their weight and condition; the food will still pass the test and be labeled “complete and balanced.” But extrapolate these figures to the number of animals eating this food for much longer than 26 weeks and you will have much more of a problem! If a food caused dogs to start losing condition over the 26 week period yet still passed, imagine how many animals would fail to thrive in real life while being fed this food for years? As long as the remaining dogs in the trial appear healthy and have acceptable weights and certain blood values, the food passes and is considered ‘complete and balanced’ nutrition for whatever lifestage for which it was tested (puppy, adult maintenance, geriatric, etc.).”

If you mean to say that Purina an Hill’s perform their own “life time” tests, it has nothing to do with AAFCO and everything to do with seeing how cheap they can make their food and have it still keep a dog alive. Also, I am not impressed with any company that keeps companion animals as test-mules. Iams in particular gained notoriety for the awful conditions in which their animals lived. Plus, I don’t think a food trial is necessary UNLESS you are concocting something completely unnatural and have to figure out “what works”. Dogs are scientifically noted to be meat-bias and therefor grains would be the furthest thing from natural foods for them. We shouldn’t even be eating grains, and we are much closer to the conventional definition of “omnivore” than dogs are. We are hunter-gatherers. Dogs are hunters that CAN eat grasses and fruits they come across, but usually only when meat is scarce.

Antonio

Jonathan,

That’s a great analogy to my above post, when I asked how come other pet food companies don’t step forward and debunk these claims made by Purina since they are absolutely false, and your main point of reasoning is b/c the tests are so expensive. I think most companies can afford such a simple test to evaluate their product over the lifespan of a couple of dogs. Case and points here’s the annual sales for Diamond Pet Food http://www.manta.com/c/mmflc1w/diamond-pet-foods-inc they are raking in between $100-500million in annual sales, you don’t think they can do this simple test and combat the information? But it’s not a point about being argumentative since this is pretty much suggestive opinion at best, but I feel more companies should start doing inclusive tests instead of using the mediocre standards set by AAFCO (which by the way these standards were pretty much created by Purina).

http://DogFoodAdvisor.com Mike Sagman

Hi Thawk… Your point about your dog eating sun-dried earthworms on your driveway is well taken. However, our website provides dozens of articles that help readers get more than simply a “world view” of pet food.

As one can readily see from our analysis, the low quality of the ingredients and their use of plant-based meat substitutes (corn gluten meal) do not support the price paid for many of these products.

What’s more, there may be another reason so many veterinarians support the same few brands of commercial dog foods (many we rate very poorly for reasons explained in each review).

In legal and ethical terms, that reason can be considered “a conflict of interest”.

This flawed concept is the same as if your medical doctor prescribes a specific medicine that’s only available for purchase in the pharmacy he happens to own in his waiting room.

Using a powerful system of incentives and profit, many vets are influenced (either during professional training or in practice) to promote only a few pet food companies. And that’s OK.

As long as that truth is duly disclosed and understood.

For proof, I refer you to this recent comment posted on our review of Hill’s Prescription Diet I/D Canine formula by a practicing veterinarian…

Hi Mike,

I am a veterinarian. Though I see that you are not, I share your views regarding the low quality ingredients in Hills’ foods. This was not always the case. Once upon a time, they were a great, much smaller company. However, in veterinary school most of our nutrition education comes from these big companies who “brainwash” us and schmooze us by offering free food for reading their “educational material” and taking quizzes. I think what you have done here is a good thing in trying to make people more aware of these ingredients. I personally try not to recommend any food that I would not feed to my own pets and this includes all of Hill’s diets and most of the other highly commercialized brands. Most holistic veterinarians have taken extra time to become more knowledgeably about food since what an animal eats can have a tremendous impact on their health, much the same as humans.

Elisa Katz, DVM

Admittedly, this note cites Hill’s. But much of its points could be considered appropriate for Purina, too.

There are hundreds of quality dog food companies and products out there. Not just three corporations. And many of them deserve at least some serious consideration by pet owners. Therefore, I’m not so sure our analysis can be called “online hysterics”.

In a free and diverse economy as large as ours, if most of the veterinary profession recommends (and profits from the sale of) the same few dog foods, I’d question those recommendations at least as much as the views of one independent website.

Jonathan

Antonio, Purina didn’t start out doing this “advanced research”. now they are a mega-corporation and they can afford to make any study sound great and they can afford to train vets in dog nutrition.

Thawk, that is the great trick of the big dog food companies. They train the very people that are suppose to know what’s good for your dog. Would you trust a nutritionist that was put through school and trained by McDonald’s? Do you not think that these big companies have huge financial gain at stake to convince millions of vets that their cheap ingredients are the most healthful for dogs? It doesn’t take any amount of schooling to look at a dog’s teeth and go, “oh, clearly, he’s suppose to primarily eat meat.” It also doesn’t take a rocket-scientist to realize that before the agricultural revolution just 10000 years ago, no animals ate grains. And more pointedly, dogs didn’t really start to eat grains until about 70 or so years ago when kibble was invented. stop excepting the status quo of dog food. Dogs are becoming diabetic for the first time in their history and it’s because of the trash carb fillers that companies like Purina put in their food.

Antonio

Thawk, I have fed Purina Products in the past (Purina One & Pro Plan) with good results, actually the Pro Plan Performance gave me excellent results. The only problem I have is that the prices became a bit ridiculous in the past couple of years, so I found a more reasonably priced product that could give me the same results. I have seen many online critics bash companies like Purina, but I find it amazing that none of the “new comer Pet food companies” will spend the substantially small amount of money it would take to do a lifespan test on their products like Purina and challenge Purina on those findings. As far as I know none have stepped forward to date. So if Purina works for your pack stick with it, don’t change based on the biased opinions of others.

Thawk

I feed my Dog Purina One. Hold your sympathy please. My sister attended (and graduated) the University of Pennsylvania Vet Program which is regarded as one of if not the best in the country. The Canine Dietitian at UPenn advised my sister that she feeds her dogs Purina One. Personally I am far more likely to take that recommendation than put stock in online hysterics. Some people on here are clearly promoting a world-view and not providing any actual advice about canine diet. Some may find it crass, but I find that a little perspective is in order when deciding what to feed to an animal that sits out on my driveway and eats earthworms that baked before they made it off the asphalt.

Chris From Korea

Yeah, the post my husband and I are stationed at is pretty small. They have a very limited selection. Like I said before, I don’t remember them stocking Nutro before, just the Purina and Iams. I was very happy to see something else!

Jonathan

Cool, man! Nutro is WAY better than One. Do they only have the one flavor of Nutro?

Chris From Korea

Thanks for the replies

Well, as it turns out, many companies will not ship dog food here and if they do, it costs an arm and a leg. A close friend of mine who also lives here looked into it, and told me it can cost between 50-80 dollars per bag of food, and that’s not including the cost of the food. It has to do with the weight of the dog good, apparently.

However, recently they started stocking another dog food product at the Commissary called Nutro Natural Choice: Small bites. It has a 3 star rating on here, and 4 controversial ingredients but it certainly has less than the 10 or so listed for Purina ONE. I also haven’t seen horrifying reviews for that product like I have for the product reviewed in this listing.

So ultimately, I think it should be okay to feed my dogs the Nutro Natural Choice food for about 1 year before we are back in the states and able to find a local PetCo or PetSmart with better food. In the end, I am still glad to find a 3 star food here now instead of a 1 star. I figured I would leave an update since you were kind enough to respond.

http://DogFoodAdvisor.com Mike Sagman

Hi Chris… There are quite a few online pet food retailers. Unfortunately, I’m not sure which ones (if any) would be willing to ship to Korea. Maybe one of our other readers knows the answer to your question and will leave a comment.

Bob K

Chris from Korea – Talk to your Commissary – You might be amazed what they can get you. If they have Purina One, I am sure they can order Purina One Select. Remember to transition your food slowly. You can also top marginal dog foods with a little Chicken, Fish, Lamb, Eggs, Turkey, Pork, Rice, Oatmeal, etc… Then you are adding great protein to a marginal dog food.

Chris From Korea

I have a question for Mike.

I am currently stationed in South Korea the types of dog foods offered are very mediocre. For instance, the puppy food offered at our local commissary is Purina Puppy Chow, which I noticed had a one star rating. The adult dog food is Purina ONE Lamb and Rice and the Purina ONE line seems to have a low rating on this site as well. These are the only two types of food offered on post and I fear the Korean dog food may be even worse for them.

I am wondering if there is a 4 or 5 star food I can order and have shipped here to South Korea? I even asked my husband to check out the food available at the largest post in South Korea which is in Seoul, and they too, only offer the bare minimum quality of dog food. They only had Iams Healthy Naturals which is only a 3 star food on this site.

I really want to provide the best food for my dogs and some of the reviews left on the Purina ONE listing are really scaring me. I just don’t know what to do considering the circumstances. There are no PetCos or PetSmarts here in Korea so my only other option is to try to order online.

Meagan in Iowa

My dog wouldn’t even touch this food when I bought a bag of it. This was like around when we first adopted her 7 years ago.

Antonio

Maybe you didn’t say no-carb, but still I think most people trying to compare a dog to a wild dog or wolf, fail to miss a huge point. A wolf might go several days w/o eating, and it’s also very likely is he’s chasing his prey that can last for milesss so a wolf/wild dog eating high protein low carb would be ideal for the success of his own survival, plus the protein levels would be utilized for energy, but most companion dogs are not even dreaming about that kind of work load on a regular basis.

Jonathan

High amounts of LEAN protein, low fat, low “refined” carbs, and lots of fiber and water dense veggies. That is how we are suppose to eat. Atkins went overboard with the beef fat. Trans fat will kill you no matter how “fit” you appear.

Cathy

I never said no-carb. How did you assume that?

Antonio

And Cathy, I’m not saying a carb loaded diet is the best for anybody, but when you go on the no carb frenzy (too far right) I think we know the results, case and point (Atkins diet founder), I think most people know how his life ended.

Cathy

Yep Antonio – It’s like analyzing different levels of inferior: minimally inferior, moderately inferior, grossly inferior.
There are also different levels of superior food. I prefer to choose a superior REAL FOOD that is high-end in quality. I’m glad you say you’re “not the type to turn this into a war”.

Antonio

Cathy, not saying I don’t believe your story, but I find it difficult to “digest” <– pun intended :D, am not saying this isn't possible, but from what you described the guy is pretty much what is commonly referred to as a gym rat (ME), and typically even the worst of us, don't eat this bad as mentioned above. But again are you saying that middle of the road dog kibble is pretty much the same as eating junk food?

Cathy

Hey Antonio – The middle-aged guy with heart disease and diabetes felt perfectly fine last year. He’s lean, has good muscle tone, and *looks* fit. He exercises at the gym for several hours during the week. He works in his yard every weekend and is a regular sports referee for football and soccer. But he eats mostly nutrient-inferior carb-laden food loaded with toxins.

Antonio

I mean not to brag or anything, b/c I know genetics play a major part as well, but you can see on the pic my dog’s coat is super slick and shiny, the eyes are bright alert and his muscle tone speaks for itself. I don’t think a diet of garbage would produce these type results regardless of the animals genetics wouldn’t you agree?

Antonio

I’ll 2nd the Wendy’s LOL :D, it’s unfortunate about the middle aged guy with diabetes though as it is a serious illness in this country. I guess I’m just trying to figure out where I fit into these discussions you have about real food versus the cheap garbage, b/c me and my dog(s) alike are very healthy. I can’t speak for others, but my dog can handle rigourous training as well as I can w/o ill effect, in fact he seems to enjoy it. If you ever compete with a dog you will realize when that dog is not properly fed, the dog simply can’t keep up the pace. So I guess since I evaluate the results I have using what is considered mid-grade type kibbles I’m trying to figure out where my dog fits into the discussion about eating the crap and garbage that you preach so often. I am not the type to turn this into a war about who’s dog is better or who’s food is better etc,, you already informed me earlier that you don’t compete in any events w/ your dog. But I still seem a bit shocked about how you consider all this stuff garbage when the results of some of the products speak for themselves.

Jonathan

Jonathan

I’d go with Wendy’s.

Cathy

Antonio – More lively discussion…. You asked……
I agree with you. REAL FOOD doesn’t mean only ORGANIC REAL FOOD. I prefer local organically grown/raised; but for nutrient value, just plain Real Food is superior to processed food. Most mainstream conventional food is highly processed, refined, hydrogenated, and chemically-fortified. And that box, bag or can of most processed food started out as ingredients that are laden with pesticides, herbicides, hormones, antibiotics, steroids, etc.
Food consumption shouldn’t be rocket science. We have become the land of robotic slaves, willing to settle for almost anything that’s on the QC radar. QC is Quick Cheap!
Nutrient-dense REAL FOOD should be more desirable than a tattoo, a manicure or a new TV. Mucho money is spent on non-essentials while the health of people and pets continues to be challenging. My hope is that more people will want superior nutrition. And for their pooch, why just settle for a lesser toxic dog food than they’re currently feeding?
There’s a middle-aged guy who has been feeling ill for the past few months and was diagnosed with heart disease and diabetes. He’s been eating primarily burgers, fries and soda for decades. He figures some of the burgers must be inferior, but they can’t all be inferior, so he’s doing research to decide which fast-food restaurant has better quality food so he can cure his diseases. Burger King, McDonald’s, or Wendy’s.

Jonathan

Anne, it’s just a lively discussion, really. We all mean well! Also, you may notice that all the posters above are Top Commentators.

Anne

Those of you attacking each other in the last 2 days should move to another site to do that (there are many out there that seem to be just for that!!)

A lot of us have gotten good information from this site and have enough common sense not take everyones comments to heart.

Antonio

Cathy-

I’ve hear you throw around the terminology REAL FOOD quite often. Please give me your definition of the term. Remember I grew up living the rural life, and still have access to many large agricultural farms as well as the chicken houses, etc. What qualifies as real food? If your comparing kibble to meat then I understand your argument but if your argument is Organic vs Non Organic then I fail to realize how one is real and the other is not. And here’s something to ponder if you look in most grocery stores now days you will see the organic label on a majority of the products, how do you think organic products are able to be produced in such large quanities year round and also look on the label to see who produces these products, it’s the same companies that produce the non organic products. I don’t agree w/ the hormones given to chickens, cows, etc, but I have saw organic chickens roam the yard as well, and I’m not to keen on eating a chicken that has eaten ticks, worms, and mites his whole life, I actually don’t have a problem with corn fed chickens. I’m not saying you should stop feeding your dog(s) or yourself in the manner you do, but the thing is you come off a bit snobbish to those who don’t share your ideology. See below for the comment:

“Like I’ve posted before, there isn’t enough clean food to go around, so somebody has to eat the toxic stuff.”

Now w/ that in mind it would seem to me that your implying that if we don’t eat the way you do, then what we deem credible as food is nothing more than garbage. That’s petty and offensive to say the least. I really use to enjoy this blog site , but lately it has started to become a bit rude and senseless. If there was a sure one thing fix all diet, then we wouldn’t even be having this debate about which is better, but since many different methods have been proven effective, I think it’s better that we share those philosophies instead of bash the others who don’t believe that way.

Cathy

Melissa,
It’s really OK that you won’t be satisfied with anything short of a government-funded scientific study to prove that REAL FOOD is better for long-term good health (nutritional excellence). Like I’ve posted before, there isn’t enough clean food to go around, so somebody has to eat the toxic stuff. That’s the sad plight of our planet, that we’re so smart over the past half-century to figure out how to make mega-tons of food-like substances that will reasonably sustain the mega-population of the world in a manner that’s satisfactory to the bulk of the population. If everyone wanted REAL FOOD, most of those people would be out-of-luck. There’s not enough REAL FOOD for everyone.

Antonio

I agree with posts made by Melissa and Ed, but I would like to elaborate on something that Melissa stated a bit more in detail, it’s true that a great many dogs have lived full, healthy lives eating Purina products without suffering spontaneous combustion as many will have you believe. And I pretty much assure you that you will not find a pet food company with more research, more scientists, and more veternarians on board than Purina? and those AAFCO feeding trials, where pretty much developed by and for Purina as well, but yet no one has a problem using the AAFCO terms for ingredients lists but a lot of people have a problem w/ the company that pretty much set the standard for the entire industry. My dog has always done well on Purina foods, the only problem has been that I have fallen prey to much of the online hype concerning the ingredients in pet foods. I know we can say well Purina is a large company and they pretty much just try to find ways to poor quality ingredients digestible while taking the customers money, well sure that’s what they do, it’s called Pet Care INDUSTRY they are in it to make a profit like every other multi million dollar a year pet food company. I think there’s a good bit of info we can learn on Mike’s website w/o sarcastically attacking each other like I’ve seen on some other pet food sites.

Melissa

Cathy-

Argue? LOl.. Hardly-merely pointing out that ANYONE in the food industry can just as easily be pointed at as “self serving” as any owner who posts here saying that they have had good luck with a particular brand of dog food. Simply because they have had good results with a food, does not equate to “sales rep”. That is one of the reasons I like this site-Mike is a DENTIST, not a vet, and from what I see holds no “shares” in any dog food, making his analysis more valid, imo, then listening to someone who does have a financial gain to be had.

As for pay now/pay later-many many dogs live full healthy lives with a “longer than normal” life span eating foods that are not organic or raw etc. Screaming that their dogs WILL develop health issues later in life is a scare tactic aimed to shame owners into feeding what the poster believes and fails to educate as to the WHY of feeding higher quality foods. People respond better to calm thoughful insight rather than chicken little.

Cathy

Melissa,
It’s quite amazing what you’ll focus on to argue. As I recall from other posts, Jonathan’s store sells a range of products from low-end to high-end. He attempts to steer pet owners to better feeding. It is clear to me that he is not just profit-driven for his store, but that he genuinely wants to educate people about quality feeding so they will make a healthy choice for their pet.
Also, just because a dog (or person) eats inferior food for a really long time doesn’t mean that it’s not doing damage all along the way. Most symptoms of nutrition-related health problems aren’t noticeable for many, many years, sometimes decades. Look at smokers and drinkers. Same as McD and Bk eaters. It takes way more than a few years for the negative effects of poor choices to appear. You are what you eat. You get what you pay for. Pay now or pay later.

Melissa

I am with Antonio on this-Save the sacarasm. Some people see “boogeymen” around every corner, apparently some see “food reps” in every post here. Good grief-

Just because a dog does great on a lower rated food does not mean the person is a rep.My dogs ate Purina One and Purina proplan for YEARS. Never had stomach or skin issues. I only had issues with the dogs ONCE I started looking for a “better/higher” quality food as I did not like the ingrediants-while they sat well with the dogs, they did not sit as well with me.

Since that time, I have been through more foods than you can imagine-all with mixed results. Simply because I choose not to list every last one, does not make me a rep. The biggest problems came with the corn/wheat/soy free, and many of the 4-5 star foods.

Its not outlandish to think that a dog can be cured in short order of stomach issues by switching food. Think of this-when a dog has intestinal upset, its typically recc to feed boiled rice with a little boiled chicken to calm the intestinal tract. Why would a food that is mainly rice and corn not achieve that? It would.

Jonathan-does your store carry foods that are under 3 star? If not, one could argue that you as well could be considered a “rep” Afterall, the more consumers that buy products sold by your store, the more of a benefit to you : )

Bob K

Jonathan & Anthony – Year ago I thought ProPlan Chicken and Rice was one of the best foods around, Boy did this website open my eyes along with a little research on my own. My experience the last 2.5 years fostering 33+ German Shorthairs have given much insight to dog behavior, care, training and feeding. I suspect I have more first hand experience that most typical dog owners see in their lifetime. Somehow feeding a Duck, Bison or Salmon food 5 star food makes me feel like the dog is eating better than I am. I am all for saving a dollar from a big name company selling me a 1, 2 or 3 star food and moving to 4 stars and saving money – Now thats a wise educated consumer to me. If you really love your animal, want the absolute best and have money to spend – go for it 5 Stars for everyone. I am freugal ok cheap so 4 star food that is easy to get is good for me and my dogs as I save money and the dogs get a quality meal.

Jonathan

Calm down, Antonio, the sarcasm was directed at the tone of the post seeming very Purina rep like. If it’s a genuine post, then by all means, she should try different 3, 4, or 5 star food. When a poster goes from a dog on “great” food (that’s never named, mind you) to some one-star corporate product like Purina One, it just makes sense that it’s a plug. There are two things that bug me…

1) She never names the “great” food she was feeding the dog for all those years. So if it’s a rep, they probably didn’t mention any foods in just case this post came back at them some how. Then they could be sued by who ever they slander. If she’s not a rep, then we have no idea if she was feeding her dog some other 1 or 2-star food that she THOUGHT was a good product. There are too many variables. We don’t know because she only refers to what she was feeding as “healthy stuff” and “expensive”. (which we all know healthful foods need not be all that expensive.)

2) The idea that a dog with intestinal problems suddenly being cured over night by a food made from brewers rice, corn gluten meal, whole grain corn, and whole grain wheat is just outlandish, man! That would be like me curing my G.E.R.D. with a Jr. Bacon Cheese Burger and a pint of chilly from Wendy’s. I’m not saying it can’t happen. But the fact of the matter is, every time I am dealing with a customer that has a dog with intestinal problems, it turns out they are feeding One, Beneful, Pro Plan, Pedigree, Kibbles ‘n’ Bits, Ol’ Roy, etc and when they get their dog transitioned over to Blue, Wellness, Natural Balance, etc, they slowly get better over the course of the first full bag. This is just what I see all the time.

So that being said, Yogi’s Mom, if you are not a Purina rep, then sorry about the previous snip. It was really meant in jest, anyways. I like to make funnies. And I would also really recommend you give Natural Balance Limited Ingredient Diets a try. I have recommended NB LID’s to many dogs with tummy problems with, so far, 100% positive results. Well, I recommend it to the owner of the dog to feed to the dog. I don’t actually converse with the dogs.

That would be cool though.

Antonio

You guys can save the sarcasm while Purina One doesn’t have the most eye appealing lists of ingredients the food isn’t the worst thing out there. I even used it with success before trying to do “the right thing” and like Yogi’s mom my sensi tummy Dobie wasn’t bothered w/ runny stools or gas either on this food, I think Bob K made the best analogy in encouraging the original poster to try to step up to some better ingredients while maintaining a economical pricing approach.. The sarcasm will not win any fans when it comes to people pets.

Yeah, this “story” doesn’t smell right to me, either, Cathy. It’s like, “I had a horrible cough all those years of not smoking, then, presto! I light up a Newport, and bam! No more cough!” lol

Cathy

Mike P – You and I both wish Yogi had a decent meal.

Mike P

Cathy, I don’t get it ? I know you favor raw , but I wish Yogi had a decent meal . Even a 3 star would be a huge step up .

Cathy

Yogi’s Mom – As Mike Sagman explains on his ABOUT page:
The Dog Food Advisor’s approach to choosing dog food is based upon one very important concept…
No dog food can ever be magically better than the ingredients that were used to make it.
How could it?

Cathy

Gee Yogi’s Mom – I’m waiting for the Rest Of The Story:
You eating organic and “healthy” caused you to suffer from constant gas, bloating and soft to runny poops, and horrible smelling gas.
Smelly story.

Mike P

Yogi , with 11 red flag items in this food , your dogs health is amazing . Must be one hella gene pool he has . Glad it’s working for you .

Bob K

THere are lots of factors that effect a dog. Sometimes just being on the same food constantly is easier on a dogs digestive system than all sorts of different foods. Now that you know your dog does well on kibble, how about some better 3 or 4 star foods that have a similar ingredient list to the Purina One you are currently feeding him but only cheaper in price not quality or ingredients. In other words, better food for a lower cost. Remember to transition foods slowly, It shold take at least a week to move a dog from Purina One Smart Blend to something else. How does it make you feel that you are paying a premium for a big brand name and your dog is eating a 1 star food? There are dozens of 3 and 4 star foods that are cheaper than what you are paying. Best of luck

Yogi’s Mom

Here’s a review that will throw you. I have owned a dog, Yogi, for 13 years and he is a stud. He still plays with the pups at the park and is always ready to go for a walk or a car-trip. Bottom line, aside from a bit of hearing loss and some arthritis in his back leg, all due to aging, he’s doing great. For several years I only fed Yogi expensive, meat and vegetable only dog food because our vet recommended it since he was getting older and starting to have arthritis, etc. I am a healthy eater myself and try to feed my family as much organic produce and meat as my budget allows. I stay away from hydrogenated oils, sweets, sugary beverages and overly processed foods, thus approaching my dog’s diet the same way made sense to me. However, during those years of feeding Yogi the “healthy” stuff, he suffered from constant gas, bloating and soft to runny poops, and horrible smelling gas. I tried several different brands of the “good stuff”, but nothing seemed to help. I even fed him regular doses of canned pumpkin to help ease his digestion. Luckily, about a year ago, I forgot to bring Yogi’s food with me when we went out of town for the weekend, so I was forced to buy a “cheap” brand at the local Safeway. I opted for Purina One Smartblend, Chicken and Rice. I have to say, that ever since that lucky day, Yogi’s digestion has improved DRAMATICALLY! I have stuck with this food for over a year because his poo is now like tephlon, his gas is only stinky if he eats something other than his dog food (cat poo outside or other things dogs can get into sometimes). When he stays strictly on Purina One, Smartblend, his system works really really well. Not to mention, he loves that stuff. Go figure. I’m sticking with it for now.

Michael

I’m shocked after reading these comments! Lucy switched to Purina One two weeks ago. She gorges & drinks lots of water. I just spent $524 at the vet for an ear infection & rash on her belly. She was very healthy on Blue Buffalo. We’re going back to Blue Buffalo first thing tomorrow!

Leigh

I have a rescue dog that will eat anything you put in front of him. Having run out of Hill’s Prescription that the vet managed to “sell” me (yes, I have read the reviews), I picked up a bag of the Vibrant Maturity out of necessity (PetSmart had closed for the night). I knew it wasn’t the best food on the market, but figured it would be okay to feed him one small bag. After just one serving, he became nauseous and was hungry shortly after. These issues are what led me to this website. Now that I have taken the time to read up on the nutritional values of common dog food ingredients, I feel more equipped to make a sound decision when choosing what to feed my dog. There definitely are some affordable, high quality options out there. Thank you!

Ash

Wow! I am so sad about this. We always thought we were feeding our dogs great food! I guess that is what you get when you only look for the most expensive food! Thanks for the time and research you put into this

http://DogFoodAdvisor.com Mike Sagman

Hi Lindy… Purina One Beyond is already on my To Do list. However, due to our current backlog of products for review, it could be a while longer before we get to it.

Jonathan

The new food looks like a three star deal. About as good as one could expect from Purina. Not bad in a pinch, though.

Bob K

Linday – The best Purina products – Purina Pro Plan Select is a 3 Star food, so I would not expect too much. There are many other dog foods with higher stars that are much cheaper than the 1 star that Purina One offers.

Lindy

I just learned of a new Purina product – Purina One Beyond. Do you know anything about this product? The ingredient list reads a whole lot nicer than their products of the past. I’m thinking of giving the Lamb and Whole Barley (for dogs) a try. I’d be happier doing that after I read your review of this product. Thankyou!

David ES

Hi Mike,
Fast response so thanks. The breeder gave me a small sample of what she was feeding and I did a transition from the Purina One to Wellness over less than a week because I ran out of the old stuff. No problems so I guess we were lucky. Will hold off on the cooked chicken until later as you suggest. She has a vet appt. this Friday for a full checkup. I have to tell you, at her tender age she is a handful. So much energy in such a small package. It is full out then nap.

http://DogFoodAdvisor.com Mike Sagman

Hi David… Since your baby was just weaned, it may be better to wait a few more weeks until your dog has become fully acclimated to her current diet. But don’t start something you’re not prepared to continue forever. She’s gonna love it.

David

What a great site. Just found it and glad I did. Last week we brought home a 7 week old English Shepherd. The breeder was feeding Purina One due to economic circumstances. I did a little reading and started feeding Wellness Super 5 Puppy as soon as we got her home.

Now I have been reading more on this site and see it was a good decision. In the past we have fed our dogs Kirkland both dry and canned with no obvious ill effect. But, reading how dogs are basically meat eaters we will avoid any food that is not basically heavy in meat or meat products. I also avoid any food containing corn, wheat or soy.

Only pet stores or online sources are good for true premium dog foods. Grocery stores are only selling the cheap aka low quality junk.

One question – is it too soon to add a little bit of cooked chicken to her measured amount of kibble? She is roughly 8 to 9 pounds now at 8 weeks. Expected adult weight of 45 to 55 pounds.

Roberta

My dog HATES this food. He won’t touch it. I thought to myself, “maybe he knows something that I don’t.” That’s when I started investigating and I found this site. Thanks dogfoodadvisor!

http://DogFoodAdvisor.com Mike Sagman

Hi David… Thanks to your tip, I’ve added Purina One Beyond to my To Do list. However, due to our current backlog, it could be a while longer before we get to it.

David R.

Purina One Beyond is their new one. A few less red flags, but not near enough for me to remotely think of switching from Taste Of The Wild brand.

Jonathan

T.J., while I agree that you should never use this product again, the contamination you mention could happen to any dry food product with a long shelf life. That type of contamination is a result of the little creatures finding their way into the bag through tiny rips or holes. It has more to do with how the food is stored and handled and shipped than with the manufacturing process.

Mind you, i am NOT defending this food… it is most certainly trash! You should as you said, never by it again simply because, as you now have read, it’s not good for your dog! If you ever have a contaminated bag, do as you say you did and just return it to the store for an exchange or refund. If it keeps happening with the same store, I would wonder about their dog food handling practices.

T.J.

We switched to Purina One 3 years ago for our two dogs. A year ago I purchased two large bags and both bags contained webs and live flying insects from a pet store chain. I can’t believe it happened again. Last month we purchased another bag filled with even more webs and bugs walking throughout the dry food. We taped it up and decided to return it to the store the next day. By the next day, magots were stuck in the tape and some were making their way out. After reading these reviews, we won’t purchase Purina One ever again!

Kathy

Oh, and Sammie also had the red spots on her ears and a yeast infection in her ears like Kimberly’s dog on the Purina One new formula.

Kathy

Wow – finding this site and reading this was so informative. I had the same experience as Kimberly. When I adopted my rescue lab/chow mix, Sammie, the shelter said she was eating Purina One Lamb and Rice. So that is what I kept feeding her without knowing what I know now that I have read this site. But it seemed ok – she had really hard poops sometimes but otherwise seemed great and her coat was soft and shiny, enough so that people commented on it. THEN after the formula change this year, the itching started and the poops became worse (hard more often.) Then her fur got rough, dusty looking and then started shedding more than anything I’d seen in the 2 years I had her. It seemed like she lost 1/2 her fur! The vets told me this was not likely the new food formula of her same food…well after hundreds of dollars of vet bills and a miserable summer for her all itchy all of the time, I decided to change her food. I picked Halo after talking to a friend who is in to nutrition (people and dogs.) I changed her over slowly – about 9 days. The itching and fur remained a problem…until the day she was only on Halo. Poof! No more itching – that very day no more itching. After a month her fur was shiny and soft but sparce (I’d added Halo’s Dreamcoat supplement too.) After 2 months her fur is shinier, softer and more full and lush than ever. Her poops are regular like clockwork and soft – like they never were on Purina One. And she *loves* the food! (I do a mix of canned and kibble.) She has a passion for that food she never had for Purina One – even before the formula change. I wish I’d listened to my instincts and switched the food after the first symptoms! Whatever Purina did to that food is a nightmare.

Jonathan

Good call, Aurora. I would also add that Pro Pac, if you can find it, (usually at Pet Sense) is much cheaper and much better than Beneful. 3 star food, 33 pounds for $28.99.

Even Nutro max can usually be found for just under $30 for 30lbs if price is a problem.

If price is not an issue, just go to the pet store and buy a 4 or 5 star rated food like Wellness, Blue Buffalo, etc and try it out!

aurora

dee- if you have a petsmart in your area, authority is a very decent bargain for your money, its the same cost per ounce as beneful (and cheaper than purina one) for much better nutrition. i dont understand why purina one and beneful charge so much for such utter junk

Jonathan

Dee, most folks haven’t heard of 90% of these brands! So don’t feel bad about that. There are so many dog foods out there that it’s kind of crazy. But Here’s the $50,000 question… do you shop for dog food at a pet store or a grocery store? If the answer is “grocery store” than that would be why you have never found any good brands! Grocery stores almost always carry only the worse, TV ad having, corn, wheat, and by-product based, profit-first dog foods. So go to the pet store and try to find a 3 or more star food in your price range. And good luck!

http://DogFoodAdvisor.com Mike Sagman

Hi Dee… There are hundreds of better quality dog foods than Purina or Beneful. Check out some of the 3, 4 or 5-star dog foods on our website. Hope this helps.

Dee

I have 2 lab-mix rescue dogs, about 65 lbs ea. who have been told to lose a few pounds. They’ve always been picky eaters so I’ve often added grated cheese or a tbsp. of canned food to their dry food. Recently I tried the Smart Blend Lamb & Rice and they loved it, eating the full cup & half immediately. I only feed them morning & evening that amount, with a couple biscuits after their last potty break at night. I was hoping this would help them lose a bit of weight. However, now that I’ve read these comments, I can’t, in good concience, continue with the Smart Blend after they finish this bag. I can’t trust any of the brands anymore, as none of what I’ve fed them in the past is even on the lists with the exception of Beneful. I’ve never heard of a lot of those recommended brands. I’m just at a loss as what to get next, considering the price also. But thank goodness for this site.

Tiff

Well at least I know its not just my dog. She has been eating Purina Chicken and Rice for years and loved it. Now the change to “Smart Blend” pfft. Dumb blend. She too only eats the chicken pieces and leaves the rest. I tried switching her to Beneful only to end up treating her for food allergy… It was breaking my heart to see her itch and shake her head… She would look at me so pitiful. I then had to medicate her with Benadryl. This makes me so sad that she had to suffer. I really wish Purina would switch back or offer the classic formula as well. I may switch to Blue… I have heard good things. I fear Purina has lost a very loyal Puppy.

http://DogFoodAdvisor.com Mike Sagman

Hi Bill… We’ve already reviewed Exclusive Dog Food. It’s actually made by PMI Nutrition (a company remaining after the Nestle purchase of Purina). I’d rate this food a little higher than the review suggests (something more like 3.5 stars). But with corn gluten meal used as a plant-based protein booster, I’m reluctant to award this dog food a full 4 stars. Still “recommended”, though. Hope this helps.

Bill

What’s your impression/opinion of Purina Exclusive? My local feed store sells it, so it would be convenient but the priority is if it benefits my dogs.

Thanks ~

Jessica

I had some horrible issues with the new Purina 1 smartblends. I have given my lab purina 1 for 5 years until now. Lately she has had bowl problems, throwing up and incessent water drinking. She didn’t want to eat her new food. I didn’t understand why until yesterday when I put a cup of food in her bowl and noticed mold on the meat pieces and worms crawling around and flies in our sealed container. It was disgusting and I am now in the process of trying to find her a new food. I will never feed her purina again! This site has been incredible useful with researching new foods.

John M

We fed our Lakelands ONE for years, they lived to age 17+ so at least it’s not toxic. But I read this analysis and am now trying to get our new dog into a better, more meat-centric food.

But Purina must put some kind of doggie crack in this stuff because I cannot get him to eat something else. So far he’s turned his nose up to Kirkland and Merrick Whole Earth Farms. I’m crushed because they are both such great values.

Bob

Wow, what a valuable website! After trying different foods to help with persistent diarrhea problems we settled on California Naturals Lamb and Rice (lamb and rice being the main suggested change). He definitely improved but then we found what we thought would be a lower cost alternative in the Purina series. We had fed our previous dog Purina One all his life and he did well, so ‘why not?’ After switching to the Purina we noticed more erratic poops, weird slimeyness, inconsistent potty breaks. We’re going to try another recommended 4 star brand (Nutri Source) and after reading these reviews and comments I’ll never feed any dogs Purina again. BTW, I was told California Naturals was bought by Proctor and Gamble, that’s why we didn’t switch back. Not sure if it is true or has started to affect the brand yet if it is, but I don’t feel like taking the chance.

Bob

Wow, what a valuable website! After trying different foods to help with persistent diarrhea problems we settled on California Naturals Lamb and Rice (lamb and rice being the main suggested change). He definitely improved but then we found what we thought would be a lower cost alternative in the Purina series. We had fed our previous dog Purina One all his life and he did well, so ‘why not?’ After switching to the Purina we noticed more erratic poops, weird slimeyness, inconsistent potty breaks. We’re going to try another recommended 4 star brand (Nutri Source) and after reading these reviews and comments I’ll never feed any dogs Purina again. BTW, I was told California Naturals was bought by Purina, that’s why we didn’t switch back. Not sure if it is true or has started to affect the brand yet if it is, but I don’t feel like taking the chance.

http://savethespeciesworldwide.com John Capobianco

I wouldn’t feed this junk to a stray rat………Need I say more?

patty

my two dogs have been eating the oringional purina one chicken and rice their whole lives, they are almost two. the last bag i bought for some reason they will NOT eat anything but the dried little chicken pieces. $20 down the drain, thanks purnia for changing something that didnt need changed : (

Stephanie

My Lhasa has always had a beautiful coat and no food allergies, until Purina changed to their new formula. I agree that my dogs are gorging more and drinking a lot of water. The formula change seems to be the obvious cause, and this site is verifying it. Thanks. Purina changed and so can I.

Tracey

I feel like such a bad parent! I only recently was made aware of all the differences in dog foods. I gave my last dog Purina One for 12 years (he died of cancer….hmmm) the food was recommended by my vet so I trusted it completely. 2 years ago I got my current dog and I’ve naturally been using PurinaOne because that’s what I knew. Even though my dog has not shown any signs of trouble, ie: good coat, no allergies that I notice, great energy, I’ve made the switch just yesterday to NurtiSource Chicken and Rice. I feel I’m doing the right thing after reading all this info but it is all overwhelming right now. So much information and not knowing which to choose now, more expensive dog food during financially tough times right now, etc. I just hope I’m doing the right thing for my pet.
Tracey

http://www.loveyourpet.biz Alisa Cook

I used to buy Purina One for my dogs, and I selected that brand because (at the time) there were no by-products. But, then I noticed that they were adding by-products, and far inferior ingredients. Just goes to show that you must always read the label, as the formulas DO change, and are marketed as ‘improvements!’

For the price of Purina One (which is quite a bit more than other one or two-star offerings), we buy a 4-star brand, and supplement with real food.

http://DogFoodAdvisor.com Mike Sagman

Hi M… Haven’t heard of any other incidents like this with this product. You might want to call Purina customer service and report your findings. Maybe they can shed some light on this issue.

M

I opened 3 cans of Purina One Dog Food from the same 12 pack that had a considerable amount of pure red blood. In all of the Purina One can Dog food that I have used I have never seen this before. Is this common or has someone had an accendent at the factory?

Jill

I loved the old Purina one, but the new brand my dogs will not eat. I didn’t have problems with their health other than the fact they wouldn’t eat it. I contacted Purina and they said they had not had any complaints but if you look on the websight there are 7 pages of complaints. I am now on here trying to figure out the dog food I need to purchase that they will like and is good for them. It is a tough choice. All I want is the best for them and something I can afford. I have a kennel of yorkies and maltese. 25 in all and I want a good quality dog food. I bought Diamond tonight, we’ll see how that goes. Enjoyed reading your feedbacks. Thanks guys

Trisha

Bruce, I just had the same issue with my 13 year old beagle. I was just at the vet today after spending $500.00! My dog usually took two days just to eat one bowl of the old purina. I started feeding her the new smart blend about 4 days ago and she too would gorge herself and finish the bowl in about 2 minutes. She also drank an excessive amount of water and was also very energetic. I ended up taking her the the vet because she was very bloated. The vet said there was a large amount of food in her system that had not been digested. What is worse, her liver is very enlarged and the blood work is very concerning. The vet thinks this is all related to the food! I would stop using this food immediately!

Bruce

I’m here looking around around for what people think of the new Purina one formula for a different reason. Our little 13 year old bijon, who has always controlled herself and stayed trim and fit with a bowl full of food always sitting there (the old formula), has now started gorging herself on the new stuff. It’s alarming! She’s only a 10 pound dog and she wiped out probably close to two cups of food in one feeding! As in she didn’t leave the bowl… She also drank a full bowl of water that day. She seems more energetic than usual, which also worries me. They wouldn’t put some sort of chemical in there, would they?
So now, we only put one cup of food in her bowl a day. She eats it all.
Anybody else notice this?

Terri

All three of our dogs have been shedding like crazy all through the summer. We have had two of them for over five years and nothing like this has ever happened. I am wondering if this could be due to the change in the forumula of Purine ONE. The shedding is beyond unbelievable. They go to the vet regularly and there has been no change to our lifestyle, schedule, etc.

Kimberly

I’ve been feeding my JRT dog Purina ONE as long as I can remember. My dog is 9 years old now. The last bag I bought of Purina ONE was the new smartblend formula Lamb & Rice. I didn’t think much of it because I’ve never had a problem with Purina and this food. Until recently, my dog would pick at the food and only eat the meat chunks out of it and left the kibble pieces on the floor. This had me a little worried. Then I noticed my dog started itching a lot, she made he ears bleed she was itching so much and caused a yeast infection in her ears. I started also noticing red spots on her body. I looked online and saw that other people telling the same story. I stopped feeding her the new smartblend food as soon as I realized it was the food causing her these problems.

I took her to the vet to get treated and they sent me home with some medication to give to her for to help with her infections and to stop the itching. 2 days of giving her these meds. She’s throwing up black stuff with spots of blood in it. I took to the vet and they kept her all day yesterday and I might be able to pick her up this evening if she’s doing better. They said she was dehydrated and had to put her on iv fluids and that they were giving her some medication to coat her stomach and to help with that because of the blood.

This all started because of the new Purina ONE formula. It has been a nightmare for me. From the research I’ve been doing online and going on the Purina One chat forum, other people are complaining about the new smartblend formula too.

http://DogFoodAdvisor.com Mike Sagman

Hi Kevin… I wouldn’t discard that bag of usable dog food. I never worry about most any dog food so long as it is fed for a short while. My concerns increase when a pet is fed a lower quality food day after day for years. This continuous feeding process tends to magnify the built-in shortcomings of any product (even the better ones).

There are many good dog foods out there that won’t break the bank. And all of them get cheaper when you buy larger sizes. We’re planning to publish some lists of the more economical 3, 4 and 5-star foods later this Fall.

In any case, thanks, Kevin, for caring enough in these hard times to adopt that “rescue”.

Kevin

Hello Mike,

I just adopted a Blue Heeler from a rescue shelter, and he is a one year old that is under weight. I bought the Purina one “Smart” blend chicken and rice in a twenty pound bag. I have been hit hard by the economy like many others, yet we eat skinless chicken breasts a lot. Should I just throw this bag away? Will it harm him to finish the whole bag? And if I were to add REAL chicken breast, and maybe carrot and green beans to this kibble, would that make it OK until this bag runs out? And for this breed of dog and age, what would you recomend, that won’t break the bank? It would really mean a LOT if you can help us. Sincerely, Kevin.

http://DogFoodAdvisor.com Mike Sagman

Hi Claire… Purina One SmartBlend is included in this Purina One dry product line. So, what I say here (for the most part) applies to SmartBlend, too. Hope this helps.

Claire Sellers

Can someone post a review for Purina Smartblend please? everyone is saying that it is a healthy brand.

Kathy

And here I thought I had been giving our Lab a good dog food. I am absolutely horrified to think euthanized pets could be part of the “animal fat” content, nevermind what some of the other definitions of this are. Sadly, I’m not trusting enough of “nonhuman” food manufacturers to say this is just not possible!