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I think an infintely small and infinitely dense point of matter that somehow simply existed from nothing exploding to release pressure and creating this universe and all we know along with laws to govern the universe with such precision leading to the existance of mankind and me typing this right now by blind chance is even more rediculous.

Perhaps so, but why should such a creative mechanism bother watching over the likes of us ? No sir, we are on our own, and some of us conjure comforts between ourselves and the heart-stopping vastness of the reality.

Nothing wrong with that. There are times when we all need some company and security.

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"Science without religion is lame, religion without science is blind."

- Albert Einstein

How can science be intelligent? We have no way of knowing if it was designed or created by some astronomically extroadinarilly almost impossibly rare to the 58th power probability.

Perhaps God did not want to impose on man's free will to decide for himself therefore not making too much evidence for his existance. Just remember, the laws that apply to us do not apply to anything outside them. Something that seems rediculous and impossible in our world may not be rediculous out of the dimensions of it.

Because you have seen me, you have believed; blessed are those who have not seen and yet have believed." (John 20:29)

Many may think the idea of a God is rediculous. I think an infintely small and infinitely dense point of matter that somehow simply existed from nothing exploding to release pressure and creating this universe and all we know along with laws to govern the universe with such precision leading to the existance of mankind and me typing this right now by blind chance is even more rediculous.

I can stare at a computer and know it was manufactured and created. I don't sit in a psychology class and learn about how the human brain works with a trillion nuerons and think, wow, even though it is 10 billion times more advanced and powerful than a supercomputer it was created by pure chance and some funky accident.

Religion is based on Faith. Genesis tells us God created, not how, nor does it have to have occured in 168 earth hours.

To say we evolved from apes I don't believe that, yet I believe much of what evolution teaches. Pesticides become ineffective because organisms adapt (evolve) to the conditions. Science and Religion do not have to be mutually exclusive, you can believe both.

You can not seek God with your intellect and know the nature of Him or His Plan, you must seek God as a child seeks a parent with that same blind faith.

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I don't see a big difference in saying that God exists and always existed and saying the universe exists and always existed. If you say that it requires a God to create a Universe don't you then have to ask the question of where did God come from and who created him? After all the logic of the argument is that something cannot come from nothing. So where did the something "God" come from. If you believe that God exists and always existed you might as well believe the universe exists and always existed.

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Perhaps so, but why should such a creative mechanism bother watching over the likes of us ? No sir, we are on our own, and some of us conjure comforts between ourselves and the heart-stopping vastness of the reality.

Nothing wrong with that. There are times when we all need some company and security.

I know how you feel. I wasn't a believer for a while.

But who says it has to be that way? Maybe it doesn't have to be such doom and gloom.

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I don't see a big difference in saying that God exists and always existed and saying the universe exists and always existed. If you say that it requires a God to create a Universe don't you then have to ask the question of where did God come from and who created him? After all the logic of the argument is that something cannot come from nothing. So where did the something "God" come from. If you believe that God exists and always existed you might as well believe the universe exists and always existed.

The question is futile because you are assuming god is in the same constraints as we are in the universe. Our laws are only inside our universe. They could be totally different outside it.

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I still want someone to answer to me , if not under God, Then under WHO????

Bout Time to do some firing and re- hiring in politics agian!!

under the people, in a free democratic society the people rule under no one. It may just be a few words, and on a general basis it does not disturb me, however when it is analyzed it pretty much stands against everything America is about.

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under the people, in a free democratic society the people rule under no one. It may just be a few words, and on a general basis it does not disturb me, however when it is analyzed it pretty much stands against everything America is about.

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The rules outside of our universe may be different? So that means Gods may come and go and create themselves(?) at their whim? So out side of the rules of our universe (a bit of a problem since by definition it includes all existing things) these gods, who created them?

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If I were to have complete power and control over a very large mass of people, on a global scale, I would invent, or adapt to my uses, the oldest , and most common, stories in all the world. I will teach the youngest people from the day they understand language that they are the most special people ever created by a powerful and unseen being. The young and vulnerable will be drilled, in nursery rhymes and poems and chants, in the belief that when all others abandon them or hurt them, the great unseen powerful being loves them and will make it all better. The great mysterious being is so powerful that the world was "made" by this being. This being is so very powerful that it can make lightning and thunder, make terrible things happen to those who do not seek the favor of the most powerful being. If you love this being, when you die this being will take you to a wonderful place, and everything you ever wanted will be given to you, including all the love and comfort you ever wanted in all your life..

Sounds great, count me in...

Your country is such a wonderful place to live and work and make money, that it expects you to be loyal to the common causes over the years. Your country also demands that you serve to defend the country when needed, and stand ready to help others in time of need. Your country demands your loyalty, and wishes you to declare your loyalty in a simple poetic verse.

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If I were to have complete power and control over a very large mass of people, on a global scale, I would invent, or adapt to my uses, the oldest , and most common, stories in all the world. I will teach the youngest people from the day they understand language that they are the most special people ever created by a powerful and unseen being. The young and vulnerable will be drilled, in nursery rhymes and poems and chants, in the belief that when all others abandon them or hurt them, the great unseen powerful being loves them and will make it all better. The great mysterious being is so powerful that the world was "made" by this being. This being is so very powerful that it can make lightning and thunder, make terrible things happen to those who do not seek the favor of the most powerful being. If you love this being, when you die this being will take you to a wonderful place, and everything you ever wanted will be given to you, including all the love and comfort you ever wanted in all your life..

Sounds great, count me in...

Hmm.

As far as I know many historians and scholars have overlooked the bible and found no evidence for it to control people. How can religion be used to control people? Explain to me why when Christianity was first introduced 80% of the Jews converted? They already had Judaism. Why "create" a new religion when people were fine? Do you really believe 80% of the Jews who became Christians were decieved? Do you think they really didn't witness what the bible says they did? Matthew, Mark, Luke and John were crucified after the death of Jesus. They were told to either destroy the bible and admit it was a lie or hang on the cross. They chose death and it has historical evidence. Would you give your life for a hoax?

As far as I can see the God of the bible is extremely demanding. Why create such a demanding god? Why make him so holy? Why not make him like superman. The bible never says God creates lightening. I'm afraid your confusing greek mythology with Christianity. The writers of Christianity wrote that Jesus appeared to disciples. Why did not one single disciple refute it? Why did they not claim it was a lie? Why did they include embarassing things about themselves? They wrote that they even had doubt themselves and felt foolish. Would you write something so embarassing about yourself?

How could such a man as Jesus be invented? He is something beyond imagination and human comprehension. If you don't agree, read what he had to say.

If you have a passion for this sort of thing this book is for you. I finished it in 4 days. Many of the skeptic questions asked here are shot down in this book with amazing facts to back them up. I have read many books on the subject and that book is by far the most spectacular peice of writing on the subject I have come across. If anybody doubts I suggest you read it. You may realize you have a lot of catch up work.

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The point I was trying to make is that--- cristianity, by design , controls its adherents through guilt, shame, and intimidation. However, you cannot intimidate anyone unless you first indoctrinate them in the negative effects of violating the implied contract with the social organization --- by implying that the contract is with an unseen and unprovable force or being. There are several methods of controling persons through guilt shame and intimidation, most of which work best when started with very young and vulnerable.

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Students are in no way required to recite the pledge if they do not feel inclined to do so.

So I guess you would disagree with the Province of Ontario's recent decision not to endorse or codify sharia law as a means of resolving civil disputes, in response to claims that doing so would amount to accepting cultural coercion in a democratic society.

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"As far as I know many historians and scholars have overlooked the bible and found no evidence for it to control people. How can religion be used to control people? Explain to me why when Christianity was first introduced 80% of the Jews converted? They already had Judaism. Why "create" a new religion when people were fine? Do you really believe 80% of the Jews who became Christians were deceived? Do you think they really didn't witness what the bible says they did? Matthew, Mark, Luke and John were crucified after the death of Jesus. They were told to either destroy the bible and admit it was a lie or hang on the cross. They chose death and it has historical evidence. Would you give your life for a hoax? "

I think that there may be an error in the figures here.

First how can you know when Christianity was first introduced in order to determine that 80% of Jews converted. Was it introduced at the birth of "Christ" at which point the birth mother and her husband weren't convinced that it was a new religion and they were only 2 people. Or was at the time of the crucification? Maybe it was at the time of the alleged resurrection? Was it at the time that the disciples fled out of fear of their life immediately after the crucification. There really would not seem to be much evidence anywhere that 80% of Jews converted 'at the introduction of Christianity'

As for why create a new religion when Judaism was fine. I think that this is a good argument. I guess it explains why the prophet Mohamed came after Christ and founded a new religion which is growing faster than Christianity. But wait haven't there been lots of "new religions" founded since Christ? Didn't people join David Karesh? Hasn't the Mormon church been founded since Christ? Isn't it the fastest growing Christian faith (even though many Christians do not accept it as a Christian faith)? Isn't the Church of Scientology one of the wealthiest Churches in the world and rapidly expanding?

As for the disciples being told to destroy the Bible before they died. That was a neat trick since the Bible includes the new testament and that was not written until all or perhaps all but 1 of the disciples were deceased.

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1. Under God in the pledge of allegiance. I believe that America was based under certain religious principles and Under God does indeed reflect these principles. Additionally, Under God ia sufficiently generic that it does not favor one religion over another. Although clearly, this irks the atheists, I do not feel that atheism is a religion and should not be considered as one under the constitution.

2. Creationism vs evolution. This should be a separate thread. There is scientific evidence that evolution exists in nature. Plus it also describes many human behaviors and provides an excellent analogy in the business world. However, this does not lead my to the conclusion that man is descended from apes. In fact, other than this theory, there is little evidence that man is descended from ape.

On the other hand, we have creationism or intelligent design. The problem with is a constitutional one I believe. The intelligent design/creationism theories come from the Old Testament in the Bible. This favors Judeo/Christian thinking over other relgions that do not have this in their Bibles. Therefore, I believe that these matters should be taught in religion class where the matter can be properly explored as a whole. But it should not be taught in science class.