When I read someone with a massive influence talking about some of the same things I do, I take note. Michael Zipursky wrote a recent blog piece about how to get published in industry publications to boost your exposure. He’s been featured in big media platforms like Huffington Post, Fox News, American Express’ Open Forum and more. Turns out his methods are incredibly similar to what you’ve heard me talk about here.

Learning From People In Different Industries

Yet we work in 2 completely different fields. Michael works with consultants in business. I work primarily with musicians and entrepreneurs in the creative industries. His methods for getting big media companies and the people behind the publications to take notice are very similar to what is detailed in The DIY Musician’s Radio Handbook. Did I know Michael’s methods when I wrote my book? Nope. However, like attracts like.

A few of the past DIY Artist Route podcast guests have come from non-music related industries. There have been a few people on social media who balked at learning non-musicians about music growth. Here’s the thing: growth principles are bigger than any industry. Don’t choose to close your mind off to people in a different field or industry because it seems to not apply. That’s a dangerous place to live.

Instead, have a teachable mindset. Teachable folks can learn from anyone. If you want to know how to do something someone else is doing, or you want to connect with them, it’s not hard. After reading his blog article, I reached out to him and made a connection. The result of that connection is this podcast conversation.

Michael Zipursky Secrets To Media Exposure

How do you get someone to pay attention to you? You start by paying attention to them. It’s what Dale Carnegie talks about in How To Win Friends And Influence People. Remember this quote from Carnegie: “You gain more friends in two months showing interest in other people than you can in 2 years trying to get other people interested in you.” That matters when contacting media to get their attention.

The majority of emails sent to media are Spam. Same is true in business when people are trying to get the attention of others. It doesn’t work.

“It’s all about the relationships. When you can establish a relationship with an author or editor, you’re going to get a lot more focus from them than if you send a Spam message.”

In the podcast, Michael lays out 5 specific steps to take to get yourself and your work in front of big media publications. The method is the same for getting in front of radio. The step-by-step process is detailed in 9 videos, a comprehensive training workshop, and coursebook in the Indie Radio Promotion course.

As a coach to coaches, I pay close attention to what Michael talks about on Consulting Success. His platform is about how to be a better leader, how to guide leaders to create more wins, and how to keep growth happening on a regular basis.

His success is in leading people of all walks of life to achieve more using systems and structures. The most successful people in the world have coaches and mentors who work with them to make magic happen in their lives and professions. No one gets to the top on their own.

“One of the big keys to success for every successful person I know and every successful person out there is having a coach. Music artists, athletes, actors and so forth all have a success coach. They identify who is out there and who can they learn from to get that help. That helps them fast-track their success.”

Like Michael, I’m driven by creating big wins for creative people like you. Whether that’s launching your next project, growing your audience, or simply figuring out the next steps to take in your journey, I’m here for you. For more on working with me as a coach to growth farm your success in music and business, contact me here.

Remember wanting to be cool when you were younger in grade school? As I get older, the desire to be cool in the eyes of other people still lingers but it’s not near as strong as it was in an
earlier time in my life. Part of that change is due to age, and hopefully a little maturity, but most
of it is because I know who is going to be interested in me, what I have to say, what I do and
who I am. Who I am is not for everyone, and that brings me comfort instead of fear.

The desire to be liked or to be cool with people is the same as the desire to be popular. Often
times, I think we confuse our desire to be respected and appreciated for a desire to be praised
by everyone. As technology keeps allowing for individuals to connect with each other across
spectrums without the former barriers of distance, time, or even language, there are more and
more people to potentially appeal to.

For people who don’t know their specific craft in life, or the certain colors that they paint better than others and the unique story that separates them from the crowd, coming to this realization can be daunting.

This is why I work with musicians and creative entrepreneurs as a coach and mentor. These struggles kept me from fulfilling my dreams for a long time, and they keep talented people stuck for far too long.

Musicians feel some version of this fear in several ways, as do entrepreneurs and creative startups. One way this fear comes into play is how it’s becoming harder and harder to promote your music and your business on a small scale or limited budget.

For musicians this is because the amount of indie and unsigned musicians (not including artists on major labels) is vast and large and growing by the day. For entrepreneurs, often the marketing and development side of networking isn’t something they’ve given a lot of thought to, but is absolutely necessary to reach the levels of success we all dream about.

All of these artists are creating and trying to sell their music. Innumerable options available to a
limited number of people creates fears of how it will work.

The music fan has changed too, because he or she is able to access so much more content
than any period in history, from anywhere in the world, and not have to have a hard copy of it to listen to,or have to take up room on their computer. Oh, and it’s free too. How do you sell a
product to a populace who is used to getting something without cost and who just wants a taste
of it without taking any ownership or commitment to it?

The whole identity thing is bigger than just knowing who you are and what makes you cool. It
helps you know what makes you and your story appealing to others. When you know the what, you can find the who. All you have to do is look inside.

I created a radio program (The Appetizer Radio Show) over a decade ago. Originally it was designed for people who love music. I’m a big fan on noncommercial artists, but also love the B-side tracks on some very well-known albums. Those songs don’t get heard on the radio, not the big named stations. I was sick of having to listen to the same 40 songs repeated constantly. So I made a show that featured nearly every genre and type of artist. The radio program was called The Appetizer Radio Show, because like food, we sample different types of music regularly for our music diet.

As I tried to appeal to fans of all music, I became frustrated with the inability to really grow the
program. It’s hard to move forward when you’re trying to carry the weight of the world with you.

The whole world wasn’t going to follow one idea, and when I started to discover the stuff I was
drawn to the most, and then started featuring more of that, our audience grew. Growth was not
just in numbers but in quality of connections and relationships. I used my ability to connect with
people to single-handedly syndicated the show to markets across the country and even a few
international ones without using a high priced marketing agency (I did look at a few of those and the cost versus the return was outstanding).

Working with indie artists over the years has taught me a lot, and it’s made me a better
professional, both in music and in the relationship business that is life. One of the biggest
lessons I can give, and help people with in their process, is drilling down deep within themselves to discover the specific elements about themselves that make them great, so that they can know who will be most drawn to their art. If you want to make a million dollars in music, good luck. No one has discovered the formula for making that work, not even the billion-dollar labels. They lose money constantly trying to promote artists who don’t make real music or connections with people.

Relationship building through good old-fashioned methods has brought me more growth and
opportunity than I could have achieved using any other way. It’s what I want to pass on to
others, especially musicians and entrepreneurs.

There is a LOT of competition out there, but there is also a lot of opportunity. People are searching for stories, powerful ones that empower them and inspire them to do more. We’re looking for interesting people worth celebrating and connecting with, who value true connection instead of flash-in-the-pan fakery. Syncing up with the people who fit your music and artistic identity is the key to you finding the ongoing, long-term success that makes for legendary artists.

That’s what I do, that’s what I love. That is my why. Tell me your why. What is it that drives your music or your entrepreneurial endeavor? Connect with me to discover new ways of getting your story out to the audience that is hungry for it.

Dreams changing shape or mutating into new things is good, not something that should make you nervous. I’ve heard people say with alarm, “But I used to want to do this thing with all my heart but I don’t know if I want that anymore.” It’s ok for your dreams to change if you are changing too. And it’s also worth noting why your dreams are changing.

Steve Harvey has a great book that tackles this idea called Act Like A Success, Think Like A Success. In it he talks about how to take your gift, the thing that you do naturally that no one else can with the greatness that you do, and use it to make your dreams come true. Harvey calls this your vehicle. Your gift needs a vehicle to take it to the next level, but you won’t always stay in the same vehicle to get to your end result.

Vehicles change. Dreams are the destination.

Here’s a little insight into my story and how my vehicles have changed a few times in the last few years, which was a little scary to me because they’d stayed the same for over a decade. I should have been cautious about the fact that I’d stayed at the same place doing a lot of the same things for so long. Instead, I was proud of the fact that most of my young adult friends were working on their 3rd or 4th job before turning 30 and I was still doing the same work I’d started when I was a teenager.

There is something to be said for commitment and longevity. But you have to look at the lifeblood too. I wasn’t stagnant in my job, but it also wasn’t fulfilling me in the ways that I wanted (and needed) to be fulfilled. Actually, I’d reached the ceiling on how far in the organization I was going to be allowed to go by age 29. And I knew it. But I didn’t do anything to try and improve my situation until faced with some startling realities and that forced me to move.

The fact that I had peaked in terms of how far I could grow in a company before turning 30 should have been alarming (in the ways described earlier) in my pursuit forward and should have led to a shifting in what my goals were. However, since I didn’t have clarity on my dreams, I couldn’t see that there was something really wrong with where I was and what I was investing my energies in.

I wanted to be a big success in the radio industry, but I didn’t want to be in the Pop-Radio space (think Top 40, Taylor Swift, Katie Perry, etc). I also didn’t want to move to a bigger city. So, in essence, I’d pigeon-holed my growth to have to be only where I already was. The dream itself needed to shift and the vehicle to get me to the real dream needed to change.

I worked at a public radio station that operated on a university campus with an all-student on-air staff, but a professional staff of 5 people who maintained the station’s revenues, operations, administration, marketing, and community connection. My role as Operations Director involved every aspect of the station some form or fashion (a bit in the fundraising and administration but not as much as the operations and community connection).

It was a leadership role that gave me a ton of experience in community building, organizational leadership, effective communication, teaching, networking, and management. But as I got into my 30s things around me started to change, meaning co-workers changed jobs and other factors, but I didn’t shift my outlook on the future. I didn’t have a direction.

What I enjoyed most was working one-on-one with college students as a mentor and leader. Teaching someone to talk on the radio takes time and patience. Teaching students how to ask questions that lead to other questions that lead to deeper questions when interviewing someone for a news story is what creates powerful radio. I really enjoyed that. Outside of the teaching of radio operations, I had a direct line into a many young people’s lives and had the opportunity to lead them in ways that went beyond working in the radio or journalism industry. I got to coach them on life stuff, like how to balance their budgets, what to look for in a job and career atmosphere, leadership development, and more. That was the best part of the work that I did, and the one thing I miss most from not being there.

I didn’t see it at the time but I do now. My dream wasn’t to work in radio, or be a big deal in the industry. The dream really was to work with individual people and lead them to bigger and greater things. Radio was the vehicle for that. The same is true for The Appetizer Radio Show. I created the show to be able to hear really great music on the radio instead of the same, boring 15 songs by the same boring 10 artists every day.

The music and media culture has shifted much since 2003 where now you can listen to the most obscure musicians online and on FM from a variety of channels. The dream for The Appetizer really wasn’t about doing something new or different. It was about making a difference in people’s lives and taking them to the next step in their journey, especially for the DIY/unsigned/indie musician. Everyone needs a platform that will give their work a start. The Appetizer Radio Show has been that platform for many artists who have gone on to bigger and greater successes.

It’s important to not confuse your vehicle with your dream, but it’s very easy to mistake one for the other. The key is looking deep within yourself and finding that gift that you have. The gift is the one thing you do naturally without bringing in education or training. It isn’t something someone taught you. It is something you were born with. What is it that people around you say you do naturally that is better than anyone else? That’s your gift.

If you don’t know what your gift is, ask some of your closest friends what they think. Then compare notes. I know that I’m naturally an Empoweror (made up word for “one who empowers”). My communications with people, whether online or in person, are done naturally and intentionally to lead to a positive result, even when I’m upset or holding someone accountable. Yet empowering and encouragement aren’t my gifts. They are a part of the gift, but not the whole enchilada.

My gift is that I’m a great listener who thinks objectively and puts pieces together to create a strong perspective and clarity. I can hear the stories people tell me and naturally connect the dots to what is really going on without knowing all the specifics. I’m good at reading people’s mail, as the saying goes. My natural inclination is to take that discernment and communicate in an edifying way that brings encouragement to the person I’m speaking with. Positive results and outcomes are the results produced. This gift moves people forward, gives them clarity and direction, and takes them to new successes.

I see now how my gift has been used in the past careers I’ve had, yet none of the jobs or careers were the dream. The dream is bigger. What I think is my dream now is probably bigger in reality than what I imagine it is at this point. As I grow and increase the spread of who I am and become more recognizable, the dream will grow too, and the vehicles that take me there will change.

The same is true for you. The vehicle you’re in now to take you to your dream will morph, switch, change, or mutate. Some vehicles you’ll still interact with or catch a ride with periodically as you grow. Others you’ll never see again. The vehicle is what changes, but not the dream itself. The key it to really understand and have confidence in what the heart of your dream is so that you don’t confuse yourself and your direction like I did.

Do you know what your gift is? Can you recognize where you are right now as being a transport to get you closer to fulfilling your dream? How has your dream and your vehicle shifted or grown in the past year? These are the questions to reflect on to see how you’re progressing.

Since you know my gift, let me utilize to benefit you. Reach out to me and tell me your dream and the transport (vehicle) you’re in right now to get to your end goal. Leave a comment or Contact Me and let’s talk.

There’s the thing everyone else is doing that seems like the popular choice, so it’s tempting to try it. Likely it won’t work for that reason.

What often works in building connection, gaining attention, and creating success for you is what others aren’t doing. That’s the uncommon choice. It has the real value.

*Warning, I’m going to reference Boxing in this post. There are a lot of reasons for that. Boxing has played a big role in my life, and is an underlying theme in my upcoming book Be Solid: How To Go Through Hell And Come Out Whole. Read on if you want to truly win with your growth farming and be an uncommon creative person.

Though I work in radio and with musicians, I haven’t spent all of my free time doing music related things. I used to work out at a boxing gym where Coach Rivas kicked my ass every day.

I loved it (strangely enough) when each workout session ended because we all had collectively done above and beyond what we believed we could do physically, mentally and emotionally in those workout sessions.

However, I did dread those workouts before going up there each day, because I knew they would be intense, and would require everything I had and then some.

We were in the gym Monday through Friday for about 1.5 hours a day and were pushed beyond
the limits of what our minds told us we could do. I remember days of doing nonstop cardio
workouts for 20-­30 minutes at a time, to switch to doing wild bag work combinations.

My mind would be saying “I can’t do anymore, please let us stop,” but Coach kept pushing us, and we ended up being able to do more than we thought we could.

Though I didn’t fight in competition, I did go to events to support the team. I’m on the far right in the back behind a few people

I learned a lot from those experiences. I learned that listening to just the common thread of thought in your mind can be very limiting, because often times you won’t push yourself past your own limits unless something else is driving you.

To get to the real results you want, the kind where things change and you reach new levels of growth and success, you be uncommon. It was one of the first times in my adult life to have a coach who did such things. The results were amazing.

While I was in the gym, I got into the best physical and psychological shape of my life. Being a
relatively small person (standing 5’ 7” and weighing 112 lbs soaking wet), I’d struggled with
insecurity and fear my entire life.

This is a regular thing that people feel, especially dealing with bullies. I’m no stranger to this stuff. But I backed down from challenges and endured way too much emotional setbacks in my youth and early adulthood, all on account of fear.

I never ended up being very good at boxing, but I still enjoy the sport. Having done it on an
amateur level showed me so much about the unspoken and irregular aspects of the game,
something similar to how musicians who closely study their instrument and playing something
beyond chords or basic scales might understand.

I got in great shape boxing but what has stuck with me more than the exercises and the
knowledge of fighting is something that Coach said at nearly every session:

­ “Be uncommon!”

When I was in grade school, I wanted to fit in. Just about everyone wants this. No one really
wants to stand out, so we try and dress like the popular kids. We would follow
someone else’s leadership in what we would do, what we listened to, how we wore our hair,
and so on.

Sometimes we would be followers of rebels instead of doing our own version of
rebelling, because following is easier than being a trendsetter and throwing popular opinion to
the wind. Standing out is difficult. Fitting in is desired because it’s common to blend and not
make waves.

Everyone feels that on some level. We all want to be loved for our uniqueness yet are afraid
that what makes us unique might also be what causes others to criticize, mock, or reject us.

So many of us hide our uniqueness and do what everyone else does so we can fit in. In the
process, we lose part of our hearts and a sense of self (or sometimes a sense of purpose)
because the road regularly traveled is quite dull, and so beaten into the ground.

Until the advent of social media, we didn’t let our opinions dictate our course of action like we do today. In music and in business, I keep seeing the majority of people do things that don’t make sense. The only reason I can think of for some people’s behavior is “That’s what everyone else does, so it must be what works.”

Everyone can be wrong. Look at the trends in pop culture on a societal level and it’s easy to agree.

This is why when you look at those super­-successful people in any industry, they’re the minority of the group. A small portion (usually 1­5%) of an industry or business type are the most successful in the short term and long term. They’re not doing what everyone else is doing, because if they were they wouldn’t be successful.

In boxing, an uncommon fighter is one who doesn’t make lazy decisions like dropping their
hands.

An uncommon fighter looks for ways to strike at angles instead of standing directly in
front of their opponent and just throwing punches.

Other traits that uncommon boxers have is they work harder, longer, and more consistently. They don’t let their bodies get out of shape between matches. There’s a reason why Roy Jones Jr and Bernard Hopkins could not only still fight in their 40s but remained champions as long as they did. Those two were always, always, always in shape. That’s not common.

The traits that make for a successful boxer (in being uncommon) also make for a successful entrepreneur and a successful person in any capacity.

It’s not about fitting in. It’s about being unique.

Look at the highly competitive world of indie music

Music success doesn’t depend solely on talent, though talent does help. It doesn’t depend on
popularity, though that can be a blessing. Music success depends on an artist’s ability to draw
a listener into their world using notes, beats, and words (unless they’re an instrumental
performer).

One hit wonders are a form of music success but who really sets out to just create
one great or memorable thing?

I’ve seen it and experienced it firsthand, where outstanding artists craft brilliant music and
draw global fans into their realm through excellent songwriting, performance and sound
quality. But how do you get your music to a level of greatness that beckons a global
audience?

Don’t do what everyone else does.

It’s common to hope that winning the lottery is the answer to achieving the fulfillment of your
dreams so that you never take the steps and the time necessary to invest in reaching your
goals.

It’s common to think you can become an overnight success just because you have a desire
for greatness and a little talent. Add patience, diligence, and hard work into
effect along with gauging your work over time and making improvements/adjustments when
necessary.

It’s common to do just enough to get by instead of giving more than is asked.

It’s common to do one thing well and expect the world to faun over you instead of being
gracious and thankful while seeking refinement and improvement.

It’s common to expect people to just open doors of opportunity for you that others have spent
their lifetimes working hard on and then having a bad attitude when things don’t work
perfectly the first time.

It’s common to act like a complete diva. Many artists demand that
their music be showcased, promoted, and talked about, then act butt-hurt when that
opportunity isn’t given to them.

It seems that everyone wants to shortcut the process of paying your dues, cutting your teeth,
and struggling through the early stages of growth to achieve something truly great that has
lasting value.

Don’t do what everyone is doing.

Don’t be common.

Common people can’t change other’s lives or become inspirational heroes because there’s
little inspiration in the life of someone who just gets by.

Common people don’t recognize the beauty and glory in the transformation process, the kind that takes time, commitment, hard work, and difficulty to reach monumental results.

Honestly one thing I’ve struggled with for a long time is admitting my mistakes. The fear is that if I show chinks in my armor, I’ll be less appealing and less trusted by the people I want to help. But the truth is, without revealing my errors and mistakes I let you down and don’t allow for real connection to take place.

Since I’ve not done this much in the past, or in our previous interactions, I apologize. I want to serve you in the best way I can, so that you can have the success with your music and projects that you dream of.

One thing that has kept me from moving forward with some of the work I’ve done over the last year is not knowing which direction to go, what steps to take, or if I made a decision about one thing and it didn’t work, I would have wasted time, energy, emotion and money on a dead end.

Do you ever feel that way?

That fear kept me stuck for several months. Two years I left one job I’d been at for over a decade and started doing something completely different. A year later that new job transitioned into something different, and I couldn’t stay on as I had originally planned. I found myself in an unknown space, with the future not looking so certain as I had planned.

Continuing to work on The Appetizer Radio Show and doing a some projects with a few emerging musicians kept me connected to music and media instead of leaving all of that past life behind. But I was honestly without direction on what to do with my experience and passion, where to go, and what to do.

I read a lot on a variety of subjects, especially small business growth, marketing, entrepreneurship, and leadership. One subject that became a constant thread in my reading was teachers and mentors. Several outlets stated that one of the best ways to weed through the noise, overcome obstacles and find pathways to reach your goals is to find a mentor or coach. So I started looking for one.

The difficulty in this search is that there are plenty of teachers and coaches for small businesses. There aren’t many coaches for people whose experience is in radio, media or indie music. I did find a few well-meaning individuals who weren’t really interested in taking on new people, and one who was willing to talk with me for 30 minutes about what I was looking for. But he wanted $120 for me to just talk with him for half an hour.

I couldn’t do that financially, so I moved on.

It took a while to find a coach who spoke my language, I connected with right away, and who shared a similar path and journey. After much searching, I did find that coach and mentor. We’ve been working together for about 10 months now and it has been more than worth the investment. Actually, working with my coach has paid for itself a few times over. Here’s why:

I know that I’d still be spinning my wheels, questioning my decision making and living with more frustration in the lack of results for my efforts if I hadn’t taken that next step and sought help from a coach and mentor.

Yes, I am a coach for musicians and entrepreneurs. But I don’t have all the pieces figured out in my own path, which is why I have a coach whom I trust, respect, and value. Working with him has helped me find the next steps in my journey. All of the great leaders and coaches in any field have others who are helping to guide them to their next win.

Your next step could be the result of a conversation with a potential mentor and coach.

You and I are both on journeys of finding growth and success with the work we do. You are passionate about your project, career and what you create. That passion carries forth in everything you do. It’s a part of your story.

If you’re like me and want to know how you can take the next step in your journey, then we should talk. Don’t worry, I don’t charge people anything to find out where you are and what you’re wanting to do. Let’s have an initial chat to see if I can be of service to you, or if there is someone else who can be a good match for you in my network. Contact me below for details or email me at dgrantsmith@gmail.com.

It’s becoming increasingly harder to get things done with the number of messages, emails, social engagement posts, and other content all targeting us with headlines that offer something we think we need (or worse, something we think we want). How to gain more money through your network, how to improve your booking and sales, to offerings for a better XYZ option, it’s really difficult to utilize these resources for what they are and take their suggestions to heart.

I do realize that many of my offerings here fall into this category. Which is why I’m going to make a suggestion that might seem to contradict my content, and in some ways not serve the purpose of my business. I want you to pick 2 sources for content to help you grow your music career or your business.

Just two.

Three only if you want a backup option. But don’t continue down this road with 4 or more memberships, subscriptions, and outlets that are constantly sending you the latest tips on how to do this or that.

This requires a more precise focus than we’re used to having as individuals surrounded by constant media and incoming content.

Why would I say such a thing? Because chances are, the more possibilities you have for how to improve your work, the less likely you’ll be to implement even ONE of those options.

The reason is simple. When we have more than 2 options for how to move forward, we spend a lot of time debating on which option is best. When we have various subscriptions to different email newsletters or Facebook profiles that mostly send us content offering to help you improve what you do, it’s really hard to block out the necessary time to truly plug in to what that one message says. Because your inbox just received a new article or post on 5 ways to improve something else, or 10 things not to do to be successful. Are you going to really take the time to read each of these, or are you going to save them for a later time and never really go back to them?

I’m speaking in many ways from experience. I’ve been a subscriber to only a few e-newsletters and sites that send content to help me improve my business. Ultimately as much as these folks want to be helpful, they also me to buy their stuff, which is why they offer what they do for free. And to be honest with you, it’s why I offer what I do for free in some instances. I want your business. But more importantly, I want a relationship with you where we can talk one-on-one and dive into the specifics of your situation to really make an impact where you are right now and create new opportunities for growth both in your audience as well as your pocketbook.

I can also speak from experience on the value of having a mentor and coach to help focus my energies and endeavors moving forward to reach my goals. I do practice what I preach. Having a coach to help me narrow my focus on only a limited number of options in the direction I’m headed has proven to be monumental in my professional work in reaching specific milestones faster than I ever did before on my own. On my own, I was too distracted most of the time from the never-ending barrage of options. Maybe you’ve had a similar experience.

I also realize that if you have too many voices offering you similar but different paths forward, it’s really hard to choose which one to take. And it’s even more difficult to not subconsciously combine a few suggestions from one person and something else from another into an amalgamation of options that might end up benefiting you in the long run, but also might end up causing unnecessary confusion and frustration.

So make a choice for a few months. Stick with receiving content, updates, and tips from only a few select professionals or individuals. Follow through with their suggestions and how they can best be used to benefit you. If you choose me as one of those sources, excellent! I really appreciate the honor. If you don’t, that’s ok too. Check on your results after 3 months. If you’re not where you want to be, evaluate who your teachers, mentors, and suggestion-box people are and make the appropriate changes.

Ultimately you have to serve the best interest of yourself, and having the fewest number of options serves you best. Good luck, and thanks for choosing to follow me up to this point.