cameroncrazy1984:Debeo Summa Credo: What happens when rates return to historic averages and we have to refinance all our debt?

What do you think this is, a credit card?

Yes, that is absolutely what the austerity jihadists think. They constantly make comparisons to running the most complex global society in history to balancing a family checkbook. Then they snarkily tell you about how it's "Economics 101".

It's scary that these people can get into power, and get SO close to having control over the country. In fact, you could argue that over the last 2 years they HAVE had control of the country.

t3knomanser:cameroncrazy1984: What do you think this is, a credit card?

On one hand, they say debt is bad. On the other hand, they say government should be run like a business.

Well which is it, yabbos, because if you're running a successful business, at some point, you're going to use debt to leverage your business up and expand it. And that's just a small business.

Of course, the half-life of a business is about 8-years- can you imagine if you Federal government had a 50% chance of failing every 8 years? Maybe we shouldn't run the government like a business.

Governments should NEVER be run like a business.

The simple single goal of a business is to make profit by any and all means necessary that are compatible with the owner's morals or lack thereof.

Treating employees like crap, getting substandard materials, misleading advertisement, outright cheating, lying and breaking the law whenever they can get away with it. As long as 'profit' is attained, then everything is kosher.

A government's singular purpose is to provide for the common good of the governed. Without consideration for 'profit'. It's there to look out for 'us'. Republicans want to confuse us on that fact, get us to forget that government is a contract devised solely to ensure that the common good is served.

They count on people being willfully ignorant, suspicious of 'different' people, bigoted, fearful and blind. That is why they're get hated on so much, because they 'require' the basest nature of humanity in order to cling to power. They are the id of the nation's political scene. Selfish, greedy, unthinking.

Infernalist:t3knomanser: cameroncrazy1984: What do you think this is, a credit card?

On one hand, they say debt is bad. On the other hand, they say government should be run like a business.

Well which is it, yabbos, because if you're running a successful business, at some point, you're going to use debt to leverage your business up and expand it. And that's just a small business.

Of course, the half-life of a business is about 8-years- can you imagine if you Federal government had a 50% chance of failing every 8 years? Maybe we shouldn't run the government like a business.

Governments should NEVER be run like a business.

The simple single goal of a business is to make profit by any and all means necessary that are compatible with the owner's morals or lack thereof.

Treating employees like crap, getting substandard materials, misleading advertisement, outright cheating, lying and breaking the law whenever they can get away with it. As long as 'profit' is attained, then everything is kosher.

A government's singular purpose is to provide for the common good of the governed. Without consideration for 'profit'. It's there to look out for 'us'. Republicans want to confuse us on that fact, get us to forget that government is a contract devised solely to ensure that the common good is served.

They count on people being willfully ignorant, suspicious of 'different' people, bigoted, fearful and blind. That is why they're get hated on so much, because they 'require' the basest nature of humanity in order to cling to power. They are the id of the nation's political scene. Selfish, greedy, unthinking.

This.

Plus, if you think about it, what they want is government by lowest common denominator, which only makes problems worse. A profit-based, market-driven model for government would mean that the bottom line would dictate that only the most profitable choices would be made, based on what's most common. The people on the ends of any bell curve in a given market would be totally excluded.

To use a shoe analogy, it's not economical for a shoe company or its retailers to stock the very small or very large sizes. There's a "gut shot" range of shoe sizes and even styles that sell the most, and that's what goes to market. The rest is special order, if its available at all.

Government-as-business types may not be consciously doing so (who knows) but they're asking for a government that will exclude those in our society that don't fit the most profitable demographics and profiles. There is no market solution for that, and it is one reason civilization has EVOLVED to create government in the first place.

The other important bit with "government as a business" is that businesses operate on highly compressed time scales. With a half-life of 8 years, it doesn't make sense to plan more than a handful of years out into the future. Couple that with executive rewards based on quarterly stock behavior, businesses are not suited to long investment periods with unclear returns.

On the flip side, that's what governments excel at. Governments don't need to plan for short period returns. The only hindrance is our electoral cycle, which means that elected officials won't lay plans if they won't pay out before the next electoral cycle. Fortunately, the vast bulk of government lives in the hallways of bureaucracy, and those individuals are going to be there until they die or retire- they can plan along long time horizons.

nmrsnr:Obama has as much as said that if we pass Jan. 1 without a compromise he's going to ask Reid to enter a no-frills, straight up tax cut on everyone making less than $250k and dare the GOP to filibuster a tax cut for 98% or Americans.

Yeah, but couldn't the GOP amend the bill to include people making over $250k and then vote for that and make the Dems vote no?

max_pooper:cameroncrazy1984: Debeo Summa Credo: What happens when rates return to historic averages and we have to refinance all our debt?

What do you think this is, a credit card?

Yeah I dont have a GED in finance or anything but I'm pretty sure treasury bonds are fixed interest.

Wow. Each individual treasury issued is fixed rate (other than TIPS) but, as I said above, most of our issuances are on the short end- 5 years or less. When those bonds mature, we have to pay the principal back. Absent a surplus at that time, we'll need to reissue new treasury securities to obtain funds to pay back the principal. And the rate we will pay will be the market rate at that time.

So, all the great 1% 5 year notes we can issue now to finance your infrastructure projects will have to be refinanced at whatever the rates are in 5 years. Get it now?

Crown_of_Shoes:nmrsnr: Obama has as much as said that if we pass Jan. 1 without a compromise he's going to ask Reid to enter a no-frills, straight up tax cut on everyone making less than $250k and dare the GOP to filibuster a tax cut for 98% or Americans.

Yeah, but couldn't the GOP amend the bill to include people making over $250k and then vote for that and make the Dems vote no?

Debeo Summa Credo:Crown_of_Shoes: nmrsnr: Obama has as much as said that if we pass Jan. 1 without a compromise he's going to ask Reid to enter a no-frills, straight up tax cut on everyone making less than $250k and dare the GOP to filibuster a tax cut for 98% or Americans.

Yeah, but couldn't the GOP amend the bill to include people making over $250k and then vote for that and make the Dems vote no?

Of course they could, and they likely will.

Is there any sort of strategy the dems could use to still gain tax increases on the wealthy? Is this called a "rider"?

Crown_of_Shoes:nmrsnr: Obama has as much as said that if we pass Jan. 1 without a compromise he's going to ask Reid to enter a no-frills, straight up tax cut on everyone making less than $250k and dare the GOP to filibuster a tax cut for 98% or Americans.

Yeah, but couldn't the GOP amend the bill to include people making over $250k and then vote for that and make the Dems vote no?

They could try, but the Democrats could always just vote against the rider. And Obama could tell the GOP to lick his taint -- and he probably would, too, although he'd likely do so in slightly more family-friendly words if there are cameras present.

Besides, that kind of attitude on the part of the GOP -- refusing to vote for tax cuts for the poor, middle class and rich unless there are also tax cuts for the super-rich -- is part of why we're in this mess in the first place

Debeo Summa Credo:max_pooper: cameroncrazy1984: Debeo Summa Credo: What happens when rates return to historic averages and we have to refinance all our debt?

What do you think this is, a credit card?

Yeah I dont have a GED in finance or anything but I'm pretty sure treasury bonds are fixed interest.

Wow. Each individual treasury issued is fixed rate (other than TIPS) but, as I said above, most of our issuances are on the short end- 5 years or less. When those bonds mature, we have to pay the principal back. Absent a surplus at that time, we'll need to reissue new treasury securities to obtain funds to pay back the principal. And the rate we will pay will be the market rate at that time.

So, all the great 1% 5 year notes we can issue now to finance your infrastructure projects will have to be refinanced at whatever the rates are in 5 years. Get it now?

Those interest rates aren't going to increase until the economy starts showing some robust growth. If the economy starts showing some robust growth, government revenues increase dramatically and the problem manages itself. I've been hearing you ninnies complain about government debt my whole life, all the way back to the Johnson administration, and it's always been a load of nonsense.

BMulligan:Debeo Summa Credo: max_pooper: cameroncrazy1984: Debeo Summa Credo: What happens when rates return to historic averages and we have to refinance all our debt?

What do you think this is, a credit card?

Yeah I dont have a GED in finance or anything but I'm pretty sure treasury bonds are fixed interest.

Wow. Each individual treasury issued is fixed rate (other than TIPS) but, as I said above, most of our issuances are on the short end- 5 years or less. When those bonds mature, we have to pay the principal back. Absent a surplus at that time, we'll need to reissue new treasury securities to obtain funds to pay back the principal. And the rate we will pay will be the market rate at that time.

So, all the great 1% 5 year notes we can issue now to finance your infrastructure projects will have to be refinanced at whatever the rates are in 5 years. Get it now?

Those interest rates aren't going to increase until the economy starts showing some robust growth. If the economy starts showing some robust growth, government revenues increase dramatically and the problem manages itself. I've been hearing you ninnies complain about government debt my whole life, all the way back to the Johnson administration, and it's always been a load of nonsense.

Autistic Hiker:Apparently negotiations in the Senate have ground to a halt.

Less than 36 hours before the new year, when the Bush tax cuts are scheduled to expire, budget negotiations on Capitol Hill ground to a halt, and an increasingly restless Mitch McConnell - the Senate Minority Leader - enlisted the help of Vice President Joe Biden to resolve the remaining differences between Democrats and Republicans over whether and how to avoid the fiscal cliff.

McConnell's gesture suggests a desire to avoid an uncomfortable New Year's Eve conundrum. If he and Biden come up empty, Senate Majority Leader Harry Reid has pledged to introduce legislation that would extend the Bush tax cuts for income up to $250,000, extend emergency unemployment benefits and protect millions of middle class taxpayers from having to pay the Alternative Minimum Tax. McConnell and Senate Republicans would then have to decide whether to mount a filibuster, and bear responsibility for the economic impact of across the board tax increases and spending cuts next year, or allow the legislation to pass on a majority rules basis, and pass the measure over to House Speaker John Boehner.

Negotiations broke down Sunday after McConnell pressed Reid to include in a year-end deal a provision that would re-index Social Security payments to a less generous measurement of inflation called chained CPI. Dems say including Social Security cuts in a deal that doesn't increase the debt limit is a non-starter.