Gothic.net Panel of Experts: BDSM in Horror

Question: Does a storyline seem more or less frightening to you, when BDSM themes are included, such as those in Hellraiser or Ichi the Killer?

Some of us find BDSM imagery aesthetically pleasing or erotic and some of us find it unappealing or dull. However, we nearly universally feel that, no matter what the elements of a story are, the most important feature is the skill of the story creator. A story is not necessarily scarier for utilizing BDSM themes. Some of us might find it sexier and some of us might find gratuitous use of BDSM a cheap shock. Or both. It is hard to significantly move anyone on our panel of experts with mere cheap shocks. We seem to agree that a BDSM-infused story will be scary, funny, romantic, or evoke any other sentiment, based only on how it is executed and not at all whether BDSM is included as subject matter.

Some of us are troubled that others confuse BDSM and torture and a couple of us point out that The Secretary has more BDSM than Hellraiser, yet it is not exactly structured to be a scary movie. Some of us who find BDSM elements sexy find that comfort or arousal is a good antidote to fear. Many of us find the Hellraiser theme of being conquered by our own desires to be a disturbingly relatable terror, whether or not we desire BDSM specifically. Context is crucial for a quality story.

More. Much more. Who isn’t afraid that following their passions will lead to their demise?

I think within the context of horror BDSM often represents the urge for self-destruction. If it is merely sexualized rape and mutilation, for instance as in Hostel or Turistas, I think that’s something different and less interesting.

There have been very effective horror stories with genuinely sadomasochistic or fetish overtones, because of the sense by which power exchange can be corrupted well beyond the ways in which it’s often perceived to be already corrupt, by its nature. In that event, sadomasochism becomes a compelling stand-in for all forms of power exchange. The film The Night Porter springs to mind as an example of this kind of horror. Lucy Taylor used to write a lot of very effective horror stories on similar themes.

The more BDSMy bits of the Hellraiser movies appealed to me because they looked cool, but they weren’t the scariest bits of the movie.

Ichi and Miike’s movies in general are criticized as being campy and cartoony in the way they portray gruesome violence, but I will argue that his narratives follow a sort of nightmare logic. One senseless horrible thing happens, and inexcorably some worse horror follows, layered on in a swirling fugue until you wake up screaming or hit pause to go get more snacks.

More to the point: The later Hellraiser movies suck because they lost the notion that people were obsessively trying to find the boxes and summon the Cenobites because they wanted to experience the ultimate torment. (They sucked for a lot of reasons, but that’s a big one.)

Sorry, actual answer: When BDSM themes are incorporated, instead of used as eye candy, they have a lot of power to draw you into characters and their motives even as you are horrified and repulsed. Ichi is a great example of this. The need for pain and intimacy draws characters together and reveals them, and we sympathize with the complex characters and are disgusted by the mere bullies.

When they’re used as eye candy, like in the Underworld movies, that’s actually fantastic, but it isn’t scary. Kate Beckinsale snugged up in leather and rubber doesn’t scare me a bit, but I’ll certainly watch.

I don’t react well when B&D are included as horrific elements as I think they should be treated with more respect than that. Perfectly good sexual roleplaying. Sadism I cannot condone. It doesn’t make a story more frightening, just more annoying, to me, if we’re asked to get into a sadistic point of view or the movie is overly sadistic. Hellraiser didn’t seem so much that way to me. Audition did, though–so I don’t get into “horror porn” films like SAW or THE DEVIL’S REJECTS. I also have seen and experienced a lot of suffering first hand and can imagine sharply what I haven’t seen so I take it quite seriously, and I’m not gleefully into horror. (I can laugh at it, though–I do like Army of Darkness, Shaun of the Dead, and so on. )

I generally avoid themes that I feel are written purely for shock value. It cheapens the story. I don’t find it entertaining and tend to believe a good story can be written without the need to be exploitative.

It scares me that the story might not be a tidy as I like. Too many stories use BDSM themes as a superfluous shock ingredient that really has little to do with the story being told. There are some examples, such as Ichi the Killer you’ve mentioned, which can effectively use BDSM themes for character exposition, but by and large it’s just ‘dark’ window dressing. The themes themselves don’t tend to add much in the way of fear or suspense to a storyline for me. The only element of danger BDSM themes tend to bring up for me is the danger of being taken out of the story as a reader or viewer. I usually just start thinking about how the writer doesn’t know what they are doing. If it’s done really really well, I think it could add, but I’m having a hard time thinking of good examples.

I don’t find anything about BDSM frightening at all. It’s always come across as for show and not for fear. I don’t know how you’d make it scary unless you didn’t know the person and they actually kept you and you didn’t want to be kept. The clothing, the situation, none of it is threatening. Attractive, sure. Scary, no.

BDSM is a game and a vehicle for an erotic element to horror. There’s nothing particularly frightening about it, to me at least, so I guess I’d have to say neither. It’s merely an element of the story. Now had the question been, “Does a storyline seem more or less erotic to you when BDSM themes are included…” then I probably would have said “more,” depending on who is in control. Strong female archetypes are sexy in my opinion, and if they travel the dominatrix route, even more so. Of course, maybe I’m just a little bent.

Horror is all a matter of context for me. Whether or not I interpret something happening to a character as bad, depends on whether or not the character feels it is bad. Watching someone get a papercut will make me wince, if that person really hates papercuts. But watching someone experience the ultimate torment because they wanted to, as in Hellraiser, seems like a happy outcome. Plus I tend to enjoy fetish aesthetics and I find the look relatable, familiar, and comfortable in a way which tends to be antithetical to horror.

For me, it doesn’t alter the fright level one direction or another — that’s purely a factor of execution. But it does make it more intriguing, because there’s this entire additional level of transgression going on, and it can add a deep level of ritual or initiation to the story. That’s what really struck me about Hellraiser, in particular. It seemed much less about damnation per se than initiation, with the Cenobites serving as these incredibly stately elders.

I don’t think BDSM makes a storyline any more or less scary, but I do think horror can be an interesting conduit for discussing real-world issues, including the fascinating oddity that is human sexuality. So, sure, bring on the whips, chains and ball gags.

Oh yawn. They’re less frightening to me because they represent how the mainstream fears sexuality (specifically my sexuality). Sex isn’t scary to me and it bugs the crap out of me that our culture presents alternative sexuality as something to be feared.

I get a bit squeamish when I see people hanging by fishhooks, I must admit. I would say that relentless punishing of victims like in the SAW series leaves me wanting to see a movie where something spooky is possibly around the corner. Again, it is all about atmosphere instead of some victim being relentlessly tortured while strapped to a plywood pillory.

I tend to be a bit numb to those elements. I find Ichi the Killer, Audition, et. al., plenty repulsive, but that’s different from being frightening. For me, they elicit an almost purely physical reaction, which may be powerful, but lacking an accompanying cerebral and emotional engagement, they tend to fall short. I suppose I found such stuff more powerful in my younger days, but now I am old, with a somewhat more experience under my belt.

A story is easily more frightening to me with characters I have little problem identifying with. I think this applies to any kind of story but the more a reader can empathize the more engaged they are. BDSM is far from where I am in my life now, I mean I’m on the PTA at my kid’s school and I drive a mini van – which leaves little time to bind women with spiked leather straps and tickle them with peacock feathers. Which is fun, well, not for the peacocks, obviously. Safety Tip: Always remove the feathers from the peacock before engaging in BDSM activities. That is not a lesson I needed to learn twice. And on a side note: What I thought terrifying about Hellraiser wasn’t the BDSM theme but the Cenobites themselves, and the human compulsion to seek them out.

I’ve read and watched the screen versions of several of Clive Barker’s Hellraiser tales, but they’re not my cup of tea. In the 1980s we had splatterpunk horror, but I never gravitated in that direction. Likewise, I don’t go to Texas Chainsaw or Freddy Kreuger movies. I’m more in line with the Brits and offscreen horror or mysteries that then become a game of wits–either extricating oneself from a bad situation or solving a crime.

I’ve never seen those films, and I rarely watch anything that has BDSM themes. Nothing comes to mind. Being restrained and at the mercy of someone else, though, is one of the worst things I can imagine. You can’t even try to fight back. All you can do is lie there and wait for whatever the maniac has in store for you and pray that the end comes quickly.

Probably less frightening because I’m just not interested in BDSM. Much. haha I found Hellraiser very interesting, but the BDSM bit was very much secondary to the more general theme of getting what you asked for.

Storylines that hinge on BDSM often seem gratuitous to me, and not at all frightening. But there is a market for that and I think there always has been. That said, if a story has well-developed characters and a strong moral core, I’m much more attracted to it than one that simply exploits a lifestyle like that without providing any insight into the people who practice it. A good example of a movie done well on a similar theme is THE SECRETARY, which was about the characters themselves as much as it was their sexual proclivities.

Depends which of my playful moods I’m in. I find the cruelty-for-shock stuff thin gruel, both too easy and not nourishing. I’m much more interested in fear, worry, doubt, and other mental and emotional stresses.

BDSM isn’t what makes something more or less frightening (people pay good money for it), but the fear can stem from seeing a protagonist who is, say, restrained and unable to defend themselves. But again, it’s the skill of the writer or filmmaker that makes the scene chilling. If we (the audience) don’t care about the characters, then their predicament doesn’t matter.

Again, it goes back to the quality of the rest of the writing; if the rest of the movie (or book) sucks, that’s not going to help! (And the reverse is also true – if it’s a great story, that’s not going to detract.)

I think that sexual trauma is more frightening than garden variety violence, but so much of what I’ve read in the past decade from the extremists seems to glorify sexual violence as a sort of exotic kink. It’s just not that exotic to me. I find the role playing that goes into BDSM rituals to be primarily contrite and forced, and that’s not very interesting to me. I’d rather focus on real instead of false emotions. I’m also not a power tripper. Anymore. Ha!

I am still disturbed by well-handled transgression, though. No horror film you could name (and I’m taking about well made films here) would be more disturbing to me than Irreversible. And I think that Gaspar’s film is a film of merit. I don’t need to see it again any time soon, but I think that he conveyed a message about the horrors of rape, portrayed it as an act of violence (not of sexual urge), and did so completely non-salaciously.

I can imagine a successful, humorous story with BDSM themes. Likewise, I can imagine a terrifying story with BDSM themes. Or a ludicrously bad story with BDSM themes. I don’t think the theme a writer chooses has much to do with how frightening the end product is.

Neither really. I think with movies like Hellraiser or the Saw series what is scary is the loss of control and submitting to someone else’s will. In that regard I see how a BDSM element can become scary but in and of itself I don’t really see that as too frightening.

No. If it’s non-consensual BDSM, then it becomes part of the general theme in most horror stories, which is that someone has had their power ripped away from them by a force greater than they are. It’s not a situation whereby you’re working through anything, experiencing yourself in a way that transforms you for the better because you’ve handed over power. The ultimate is a loss of life but before that comes a loss of soul, which is never a good thing.

Pass the Tums, please. I did meet Ron Perlman of “Hellboy” and Guillermo del Toro recently. That’s about as close as I can come to an answer. Guillermo was a sweetheart, and I just hope he will write a “blurb” for “It Came from the ’70s.” (I gave him and Danny Boyle copies of the book.)

For me, if a story is well written by an author with the ability to invoke fear, it doesn’t matter what the theme may be. The use of BDSM doesn’t make a story or film frightening, it’s how the author uses his skills and imagination to make it work.

I loved “Hellraiser”, but BDSM themes don’t make a story more frightening. Probably the opposite, but I can imagine some ways of incorporating BDSM in a way that inspires fear. It just has to be realistically portrayed and it absolutely must make sense to the story. Tossed in for erotica sake, it would take away from the horror and the story.

Usually, I think these themes take away from the horror elements and replace them with a measure of silliness. I suppose it could be done right, like maybe the way GERALD’S GAME started off (despite the tacked on and awful last 100 pages) But I just haven’t seen it done well consistently or memorably.

No. Sometimes these kinds of things can actually be comedic. It’s how the character reacts to what is happening, how believable that reaction is, and how well the writer or film maker has allowed the reader or viewer to identify with the character, that creates the fear. Unless, of course, the audience is by its nature already terrified of whatever is being depicted. But that’s a pretty shallow audience.

You’ll see up above I included dismemberment [in real life fears], which is why I am loathe to see 127 Hours, even though it is supposed to be brilliant… I love good gore, but not torture for its own sake… I find the scenes where the Cenobites are slowly surrounding the young woman in Hellraiser scarier than the guy getting pulled apart by hooks and chains – one is all anticipation and dread, the other is visceral and laid out for you – who can compete with the dark stuff you supply out of your own fears?

I’ve never really thought about it. I suppose so, because of the loss of control. My favourite film of all time is Hellraiser, but I think it’s a culmination of things that make it frightening and interesting – for example the powerful nature of the Cenobites, who can tear you apart with a single thought, or the idea of a skinless man hiding away; literally the monster up in your attic…

Neither. I don’t find BDSM frightening in and of itself, so its addition doesn’t make a horror tale any more or less frightening to me. There are a thousand reasons why HELLRAISER works and why it’s scary, not the least of which is that it’s a damn good, cracklingly original story. The BDSM undertones merely add an extra layer to it. Besides, there’s far more BDSM to be found in the film SECRETARY, and that’s hardly a horror flick!

BDSM is quite misrepresented in our mainstream, because most into BDSM are not unbalance individuals addicted to pain. It gets lumped, like a lot of things in mainstream culture, as always an addiction to abuse, and is painted in a negative stereotype. I know many people in the BDSM culture who are healthy, happy individuals, who simple enjoy an alternative sexual lifestyle that is based on deep trust and a complex interplay of dominance and submission, not just finding some level of pain pleasurable. Many of these people who engage in a BDSM lifestyle are often dominant personalities in their careers or various aspects of their lives, and BDSM offers them a way to relinquish that control for a while, let go, and relax through role play and role reversal.

But taken to its extreme to explore addictions to pain, to suffering, like used in Hellraiser, are frightening and also fascinating. What is it that takes humans over that threshold where, no matter how bad something is for you—it could even be killing you—you still can’t resist it, must have it. That is definitely frightening, because a total loss of control over your desires, to where they become harmful addictions, is frightening.

I haven’t seen Ichi, but Hellraiser was no less frightening because of the BDSM. What did make it less frightening, though, were the American voice actors dubbed over the real actors’ British accents. The voice acting gives it a soap opera feel, I think.

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