Hey all, it's definitely been awhile since I posted, but I need some serious advice concerning my male cat Angus. I've posted about his urinary issues before, but these past 2 weeks or so have been a living hell for us.

He always urinates on piles of clothes, but it's pretty random and infrequent, we find the pee and clean it up , no problem. Maybe a few months go by then he does it again. One offs, here and there. Once in a while he goes on a bender and pees several times in a few weeks. Every time his urinalysis and other tests come back normal.

About 2 weeks ago he started peeing on stuff but it was every few days, we let it go for a week or so. Then it was daily, and he moved on to more expensive things to clean/get rid of. He pissed on the guest room bed (since we rarely go in ther it took a while to realize that he had done it, and several times at that) and then our bed while we were at work, he has never peed on anything but dirty laundry.

Off to the vet we go on Monday, they keep him overnight to get a good urine sample, do other tests... Everything comes back completely normal, no reason to think he has an infection/crystals. Vet suggests idiopathic FLUTD/behavioural issues.

Today I found a large urine spot on my new sofa. I pull off the cushions to realize that he's peed there several times. Everything smells like urine, no matter how much I clean. I am seriously losing my mind and thoughts of getting rid of him are pushing forward in my head.

Here's what we've been doing:
-wet food
-feliway diffuser on every floor, and by the litter box. we spray his collar down with the feliway spray on a weekly basis.
-lots of toys and activities, catnip, windows to look out of.
-has very private litterbox room. We have 2 boxes (we have 2 cats), we'd add a 3rd, but only one box really gets used, they seems to like using the same box.
-gets lots of attention, he's a very affectionate lap cat.
-I've been trying to eliminate urine smells all over the place with Nature's Miracle, Vinegar, baking soda, borax, everything I can think of to prevent him from going back to the same spots, especially furniture.

My only idea about his behaviour is that he is very focused/obsessed with going outside, he waits at the door when we leave and come home and tries very hard to escape. We often allow him to lounge on the front porch supervised for a few minutes, but inevitable he tries to bolt, so we bring him in. We sometimes put him on a harness and tether as well. He meows incessantly at the door when we're home or if we're outside doing something. Often it seems that when we haven't let him go outside when we've been in and out during the day, that's when he pees. ie: I was out washing the car for a few hours, while he meows at the door for me, I came in and discovered the pee on the sofa

Should we allow him to be an outside cat? Will this solve our problem? I'm just so nervous to do it, there are too many dangers. But if this will end the peeing...

I'm sorry this is so long, I am literally writing this through tears of frustration and my hands are just flying across the keyboard.

aww Stacer I can't imagine what you are going through. I too would be starting to think of other options if my cat was peeing on everything. Cat pee is NOT a pleasant smell!

I don't know much about cats but a few questions popped into my mind
- what is Angus' background? Was he a stray cat before you got him? How old was he when you got him?
- what is his relationship with the other cat in the house??

Sending good and hope that you can find a solution soon!

__________________
Dogs are not our whole life, but they make our lives whole.
http://mollywogblog.blogspot.com/

Oh gosh, that is incredibly frustrating. I would also be leaning towards idiopathic cystitis, which is often influenced by stress. And yes, it's very likely related to Angus wanting to go outside, and/or to his relationships with other critters in the house. It can be hard to find a treatment plan that works in these situations but here is a link to a very thorough article on the subject: NON-OBSTRUCTIVE IDIOPATHIC/INTERSTITIAL CYSTITIS IN CATS: THINKING OUTSIDE THE (LITTER) BOX

Here are some quotes:

Quote:

The neuroendocrine abnormalities in cats with recurrent idiopathic cystitis suggest a sensitized response to stress indicating that these cats may have greater needs for enriched surroundings than do healthy cats.

Quote:

Intercat conflict commonly is present when multiple cats are housed indoors together and health problems are present. Conflict among cats can develop because of threats to the cat’s perception of their overall status in the home, from other animals in the home, or from outside cats. The goal is to reduce conflict to a more manageable level for the cats involved. Treatment for conflict between indoor cats involves providing a separate set of resources for each cat, preferably in locations where the cats can use them without being seen by other cats.

Some veterinarians also recommend Cosequin to help support urinary bladder health. The inner lining of the bladder wall is protected by a layer, which contains some of the same compounds as are found in cartilage. This layer prevents urine and the waste products contained within it from seeping into and damaging the lining. Since the low molecular weight chondroitin sulfate found in Cosequin is available to more than just cartilage cells, the bladder may use it to help support this protective layer.

Also marshmallow root powder and/or cornsilk (from a health food store) can help sooth any bladder or urinary tract inflammation.

And lastly, pain meds may be something to think about, although these are very tricky to use in cats. Cystitis is quite painful and a vicious circle of cystitis causing stress which exacerbates the cystitis can be difficult to break. Here's another quote: http://www.catinfo.org/#Common_Felin..._Ties_to_Diet_

Quote:

Diet is not the only issue involved with cystitis but it is an important one and one that we can control. Stress is also thought to play a very significant role in cystitis and even cats that are fed a 100 percent canned food diet may experience bouts of cystitis. This is a very frustrating disease to deal with and one that the veterinary community does not have all the answers for. What we do know is that decreasing stress and increasing the water content of the diet are the most important management issues to address. The water content of the diet is easy to control. The stress issue is another matter and is not always easy to address since cats can be very sensitive and are often 'silent' in their stress.

Cystitis can be extremely painful and it is very important to address pain management in these cats. Remember: pain = stress and we are trying to minimize the stress in these patients. Buprinex is a good choice for a pain medication. This is superior to Torbugesic which has been used for pain management in the cat in the past. (Burprinex is a prescription medication that you must get from your veterinarian.) Unfortunately, many veterinarians overlook pain medications as a very important part of the treatment of this common feline problem.

Approximately 70% of cats with FLUTD will positively respond to canned food versus dry food. The increased water intake can help reduce the concentration of the urine which can reduce the inflammation of the bladder. Addition of water to the wet food and use of a cat fountain can also be beneficial.

Also DHA (an omega 3 fatty acid found in fish oils) is thought to help reduce inflammation of the bladder wall. For this reason it is added into some prescription urinary cat foods.

Cosequin is occasionally used with anecdotal success. This comes from human medicine, where some women with non-bacterial bladder wall inflammation have shown to their bladder walls deficient in a glucosamine like connective tissue and respond to a supplement close to cosequin. For this reason, some cats are placed on cosequin. Cat specific testing has not been done to my knowledge.

If FLUTD is the cause, then some precription medications can help. Some that are used include amitryptilline, prozac and prednisolone.

We adopted Angus and Finn at around 8 weeks old (they're 4 now), so we've had them for almost their entire lives. Angus and Finn have a good relationship, they often sleep together and groom each other.

We do have a dog, Skylar, who is a relatively new addition (we've had her for1.5 yrs). For the most part the dog and cats ignore each other, but if the cats start to play and chase, Skylar tries to join in, which sends the cats running for the highest point in the room. This could be part of the problem, and we do try to prevent Skylar's chase instinct.

SCM, I quickly read through the article you provided and I see some things that I can implement; change the type of litter, perhaps be more vigilant with litter cleanliness (we're pretty good, but I guess we can always be better). Find some better games and toys for Angus. I also think I may put the baby gate up again so that the cats can have a dedicated area of the house away from the dog.

Unfortunately due to the type of townhouse we have (no backyard) we can't build an enclosure for him. I went out and bought a new harness today and may have to spend more time outside with him.

The vet suggested some meds (antidepressants, I think). But according to that article, the effectiveness is hit or miss and can cause worsening in some cases.

This may be a horrible thing, but it was also suggested to me at the vet's office by one of the techs. Put Angus in a bathroom with food water and litter for a week so he's forced to use the litterbox. As of a few hours ago, I've done this. Perhaps doing this just when we're not home would be better? I'm still very angry right now and can't really stand the sight of him, and he's probably safer in there right now as I'm cleaning the mess.

So how does he get along with Finn? Did he do this before Skylar came along or is it since the addition of a larger, more dominant animal?
Is there a room that could be just his? As in, no other animals come in? Maybe you have a small room or a large closet that could be set up for his use only. When you are home and can keep an eye on him then he is out with you but when you are gone or outside working then he can go into his room. I'm just throwing out ideas here.
If you are interested in an outside enclosure I can send you a link for a picture of the one hubby made for KMK. H doesn't want to come out of his. I open the door so he can go explore with the rest of the kitties and he runs to the back of the enclosure. It is 6d x 8w x 6h with a section at one end closed off for his food, litter and bed. Not saying that Angus will want to be outside 24/7 but just in case. You could add shelving, hang ropes, a hammock, lots of things for him to play with and do. Maybe something like that so he can be outside would be enough to make him happy. You would still bring him in at night or let him stay out if he is happier. At least you would know he is safe. If you have no shade trees you could use a large tarp for the top.

Stacer would you be willing to go to a Homeopath Vet? A Homeopath vet will look at the whole cat to get an understanding of not just the physical but also Angus' emotional state. They would look at the results from previous tests but won't just focus on the urinary system and may ask questions about what type of personality Angus has ie is he shy or bold, does he like warm or cold weather, is he bothered by loud noises etc - these all relate to his coping abilities. Often there is an event, minor or major, that happened at some point in their lives that we may not realize still affects them and results in different medical issues. A single or a combination of remedies would then be prescribed based on all symptoms and issues to rebalance the harmony of the system.

__________________
Avoid biting when a simple growl will do

The Spirit Lives As Long As Someone Who Lives Remembers You - Navaho Saying

Vindication ~ For all those pets who became sick or lost their lives from tainted pet food

I find with Jasper if there is an intact male cat outside and if he doesn't get outside to spray he will spray all over the furniture to protect his territory. If I take him outside at least once a day so he can spray his territory and he won't in the house. Snowball was the same way, he needed to go outside to mark his territory.

So sorry you are going through this....My thoughts are this is stress related cystis (another animal, territorial, etc.) or something in his environment that is causing him to pee outside the box. I am going to throw a bunch of things ot there for you to consider I think the other posters gave some great advice as well that I strongly suggest you give a try as well.

You had mentioned that he is peeing on piles of clothes, etc. Is the house cluttered with many things lying around. Many cats DO NOT like clutter or anything lying around. Could you keep things off of the floor. Buy tall hampers with lids. Keep things in your closet with the door closed. My sisters cat did not like lots of things lying around (especially laundry) so he would spray on them. She finally stopped leaving much lying around and leaving everything in the closet with the door closed and this has helped tremendously

Yo had mentioned that you have perches for kitty to look outside. Do you have kitty condos for him to play on? Could you install shelves on the wall for him to climb on?

Since your kitty is peeing on soft surfaces I am thinking that maybe the litter is hurting his behind when he pees. He may not like the feel of the litter. He may want to pee on softer surfaces. Could you put a litterbox down with something soft in it like puppy training pads, a towel, newspaper, etc. to see if he will use this? Are the litterboxes big enough for your kitty to move around in comfortably? Is it covered? Some cats do not like covered litterboxes. You said that the cats only use one litterbox. Are both the litterboxes the same type? If you have to buy another litterbox you could buy a Rubbermaid container. They are much cheaper and you can get really big ones.

I was going to recommend a product called Justrite to get rid of the smell and stains. It is an amazing product. Better than any product I have ever used. The only thing is it is only available off of the website and in the US. If you know someone that can get it to you from the US I would HIGHLY recommend this product. http://www.justrite.com/123kit.htm

Could you get plastic bed protectors for your bed until you get this under control? You can get them at Walmart, Home Outfitters, etc.

This could also be one of those cases where he wants to go outside so badly because he is always seeing the neighbourhood cats. And is very territorial. My girl cat is like this but thank god she does not spray. She does the motion of spraying but does not release any liquid. Taking him out on the leash supervised more often may help the situation

I think I covered what I was thinking....if I think of more I will post
Good luck!

I really have alot to think about, thanks so much to all of you for all of the advice.

I went out yesterday and bought a new type of litter with a cat attractant in it, so I'm keeping my fingers crossed there. I completely cleaned and sanitized their litter area and am in the process of tracking down any source of odours that could cause him to pee again.

Today I'm heading to the health food/vitamin store to find some cosequin, marshmallow root and perhaps some DHA.

14+,unfortunately due to the type of property we own, we can't build a cat run, a yard is on the list of needs for our next home.

I've been looking at our space and trying to determine how to divide things up with gates so he can feel secure in his lounging and playing without doggy interference.

Growler, I am totally willing to go to a homeo-vet. I can't believe I didn't think of this already!!!

Love4, there are no roaming cats in our neighburhood, so I don't think he's stressed in that way. And he has never actually sprayed, just urinated.

Khari, we are super vigilant about what we leave lying around and thought we knew his preferences for peeing. This time around he changed the rules on us. He used to only pee on things that were on the floor, so we never left clothes lying around, as long as they were up on the dresser or on top of the hamper, things were cool.

We have been using giant rubbermaids for a few years now, Angus would often over-shoot the smaller boxes and pee onthe wall, so tall rubbermaids were the solution.

Ok, haven't completely given up on this outdoor thing yet. I know there are rules about what you can erect in places like yours but could you do a kitty veranda? I went looking for dmc123's threads from when she and her roomie got theirs last year. Maybe something like that would let Angus get some fresh air and save your furniture and whatever else he is using.

Today I'm heading to the health food/vitamin store to find some cosequin, marshmallow root and perhaps some DHA.

Oops, I should have mentioned that Cosequin is only available from your vet (or online). For the DHA, look for capsules of omega3 fish oil (I like sardine and anchovy, which I think is better than salmon for environmental reasons) without any added omega 6 or 9. Some good brands are Genuine Health, Natural Factor's, Nordic Naturals.....

Oops, I should have mentioned that Cosequin is only available from your vet (or online). For the DHA, look for capsules of omega3 fish oil (I like sardine and anchovy, which I think is better than salmon for environmental reasons) without any added omega 6 or 9. Some good brands are Genuine Health, Natural Factor's, Nordic Naturals.....

Ah, that would be why I couldn't find it anywhere! The girl at the one supplement store was calling around to other stores for me, trying to find it and no one had even heard of it, lol.

14+, we do have a fair sized second story deck over our driveway which he frequently goes out on, he fell from it about a month ago and we've been reluctant to let him out very much lately. So today I went and bought some plastic garden fencing and put it over the rails so he can't slip through. Now he'll be able to lounge and hang out safely. And today my mom brought us a shallow rubbermaid bin with some sod in it so he can still have some grass under his feet/something to munch on when he's out there. Gotta love moms!

DH just came home from his 4 day boys weekend to find the loveseat covered in a tarp, the cushions strewn about and the slip covers soaking in every sink and tub in the house. He had a great weekend, I had one of the worst ever! I think I'll let him take over now. I need a mental break.

I am so sorry about your cat and his urination issues. I can't imagine how frustrating that must be for you and your pet. As an interesting aside, I am studying to be a sommelier and "litter box" is a favourable smell in white wine. We are often sniffing trying to find it...

[QUOTE=14+, we do have a fair sized second story deck over our driveway which he frequently goes out on, he fell from it about a month ago and we've been reluctant to let him out very much lately. So today I went and bought some plastic garden fencing and put it over the rails so he can't slip through. Now he'll be able to lounge and hang out safely. And today my mom brought us a shallow rubbermaid bin with some sod in it so he can still have some grass under his feet/something to munch on when he's out there. Gotta love moms!

[/QUOTE]

I hope he won't be able to jump over the banister. We have a balcony on our house, but I have yet to figure out a way to keep the cats from jumping up over the banister. It would have to have a cover over it I would think.

__________________
~Friendship is like a bank account. You can't continue to draw on it without making deposits~

I'm getting more and more frustrated by this cat. We've been so vigilant, especially these last few days. Bedroom doors closed, furniture covered in tarps when we're not home and when we're sleeping. I really can't live this way, it's mentally and emotionally draining to have to tarp and untarp furniture and keep all rooms closed off, our house isn't a home anymore it's a piss proof zone. It feels like we're punishing all the animals for the actions of one. The others can't sleep on the bed, the sofa or any other comfortable soft surface, can't roam the house and explore. I feel so helpless.

Tonight, I opened my bedroom door to get ready for bed, then went five steps across the hall to the washroom, I walked back into the bedroom as I'm brushing my teeth and Angus is pissing on the bed, yet again!!!! This is literally a few moments from the time I opened the door. I just bought a new comforter yesterday to replace the one he ruined last week and it's now covered in pee.

I have done so much to try to curb this. I'm waiting to hear back from my vet about the Cosequin and pain meds. I'm going to call again tomorrow.

I've been checking the litterbox frequently the last few days and noticed that there has only been one pee per day in the box, I'm assuming this is Finn's pee due to the sheer volume of pee that Angus deposited on my bed a few moments ago. He isn't using the box to pee at all, and seems to be holding it all day in the hopes of having a place other than the litterbox to relieve himself.

It's possible, or maybe he isn't in pain at the moment, but he remembers past pain while peeing in that particular litter box or in that location. Are your boxes covered or uncovered? What do you clean them with?

Are the 3 litter boxes in the same area of the house? What happens if you put new ones in different locations?

Peeing on these soft surfaces might mean he's in pain - when a cat has a UTI/bladder infection/kidney infection they usually find somewhere soft to stand (clothes/rug/bed/) when they go, in the hopes it won't hurt the same way it did when they tried in the litterbox.

When he had his last full bloodwork test did they check the T4? HyperThyroidism is normally an older cat condition but it's possible

Did they check his kidney functions?

__________________
Avoid biting when a simple growl will do

The Spirit Lives As Long As Someone Who Lives Remembers You - Navaho Saying

Vindication ~ For all those pets who became sick or lost their lives from tainted pet food

aww poor guy, and POOR STACER! I can't even imagine living like that. Sugarcatmom - good question about the location of the litter box. If he is in pain, I bet he would associate the litter box with that pain. I reallly hope you can resolve this soon :sad: and get back to leading a normal life!

__________________
Dogs are not our whole life, but they make our lives whole.
http://mollywogblog.blogspot.com/

Stacer, this sounds far fetched, but my sister had a male cat that would do anything to get outside, she'd take him on a leash and he'd make a beeline for the garden/flowerbed and do a pee....inside he'd pee everywhere, she was also at the point of letting him be an outdoor cat, but just for fun she took ground/earth from her garden, grass clippings and all and filled one litter box with it and left one with litter (she had three cats and one small dog in the home) well her male used the earth litter box, it took a couple of weeks for him to quit peeing on her sons beds and use the earth/ground litter completely. could that be worth a try? Or would it be too messy in your home?

-feliway diffuser on every floor, and by the litter box. we spray his collar down with the feliway spray on a weekly basis.

I'm not sure why I didn't notice this before but for some reason it popped into my head as I was getting up this morning. The last place you want to put a Feliway diffuser is near the litter box! They're supposed to go in areas that you DON'T want a cat to pee. Facial pheromones, which are the happy friendly ones that Feliway mimics, have opposite intentions from the territorial "aggressive" pheromones that are associated with urine and feces. This is why you'll rarely see a cat rubbing its chin on things near the litter box. It could partly be that Angus is now confused by the facial pheromones existing where only butt-end pheromones should be. I would move that diffuser to a location where Angus is currently peeing, like in your bedroom, and I'd also stop putting any on his collar. You want the pheromones to be site specific in this case.

I'm not sure why I didn't notice this before but for some reason it popped into my head as I was getting up this morning. The last place you want to put a Feliway diffuser is near the litter box! They're supposed to go in areas that you DON'T want a cat to pee. Facial pheromones, which are the happy friendly ones that Feliway mimics, have opposite intentions from the territorial "aggressive" pheromones that are associated with urine and feces. This is why you'll rarely see a cat rubbing its chin on things near the litter box. It could partly be that Angus is now confused by the facial pheromones existing where only butt-end pheromones should be. I would move that diffuser to a location where Angus is currently peeing, like in your bedroom, and I'd also stop putting any on his collar. You want the pheromones to be site specific in this case.

If I think of anything else, I'll let you know.

Jeez, that's a good point! I'll move it right away. The litterboxes are in the laundry room on opposite sides.

I just got off the phone with my vet, she's trying to figure out the proper dosage for the Cosequin. She's also going to prescribe some Metacam. She wasn't sure that the Buprinex was available in Canada, but was going to look into it. She also suggested a homeopathic remedy called Cantharis which might be effective.

I'm going to pick up the Metacam tomorrow. Has anyone used the Metacam for cystitis? If so, what has the effectiveness been?

Growler, when I had him in last week they only did the regular urinary work up, no blood work. I could ask about it when I go in tomorrow morning.

Melinda, he has never once peed outside when we've had him out. He rolls around on the front porch like he's in ecstasy, chews the plants in my garden, then tries to visit the neighbours. We've been buying catgrass and my mom brought us a shallow rubbermaid bin with sod in it for him. He loves to eat grass, so we thought this might appease him to a certain degree.