It seems to me that with the availability of computers these days, all permutations and combinations of every single set of historical statistics in baseball could already have been added, subtracted, multiplied or divided by all possible sets of all of the others, and any player could be shown to be better than any other player, by some metric that someone would feel was important, probably because it showed that a hero of their team was good or a hero of another was bad. For instance, if you multiply Ted Williams' lifetime batting average by his ERA, he's a god, but if you divide he's a slacker.

When I was a kid, everything you needed to know fit on the back of a baseball card, and you got a stick of very durable bubble gum too.

Wow, now that's a great baseball name. This guy just surpassed Clyde Klutz on my All Star list. Didn't he play designated hissyfitter for the Cleveland Pantywaists until he was traded to the Virginia Silicosi?

Nabb1:I'm guessing Derek Jeter. He's not even the best shortstop on his own team. His defense has always been sub-par. Yeah, yeah, great leader, good (not great) offensive stats, but defensively terrible.

If a 315 lifetime BA with over 1500 runs scored over 1,000 RBI's and the likelyhood of reaching over 3000 hits (as a shortstop no less)are just average offensive stats to you, then I'm guessing your baseball knowledge woudn't fill a thimble

gridlocksammy:Nabb1: I'm guessing Derek Jeter. He's not even the best shortstop on his own team. His defense has always been sub-par. Yeah, yeah, great leader, good (not great) offensive stats, but defensively terrible.

If a 315 lifetime BA with over 1500 runs scored over 1,000 RBI's and the likelyhood of reaching over 3000 hits (as a shortstop no less)are just average offensive stats to you, then I'm guessing your baseball knowledge woudn't fill a thimble

You're right. I gave the career offensive numbers short shrift. My mistake. I was thinking more of recent production. His numbers were down last year, but he seems to be doing better so far this year. I notice you aren't sticking up for his defense.

Nabb1:gridlocksammy: Nabb1: I'm guessing Derek Jeter. He's not even the best shortstop on his own team. His defense has always been sub-par. Yeah, yeah, great leader, good (not great) offensive stats, but defensively terrible.

If a 315 lifetime BA with over 1500 runs scored over 1,000 RBI's and the likelyhood of reaching over 3000 hits (as a shortstop no less)are just average offensive stats to you, then I'm guessing your baseball knowledge woudn't fill a thimble

You're right. I gave the career offensive numbers short shrift. My mistake. I was thinking more of recent production. His numbers were down last year, but he seems to be doing better so far this year. I notice you aren't sticking up for his defense.

The Dynamite Monkey:the biggest redneck here: /one of these makes up for an awful lot of regular-season missed grounders against Tampa from before they were good

Best goddamned play I ever saw.

Jason Giambi deserves an assist on that out for not using what passes for a brain in that thick skull and not sliding. At least, the play might have been closer if Posada had to reach further to get the tag.

[Checks] Well, nearly as good. But, of course it should have course say "defensive infielder", and also it should say "relative to others playing his position".

lunchinlewis:Mark Belanger won like 10 gold gloves at short stop for Baltimore back in the 70's. He was also THE WORST offensive short stop in the history of the world over that time.

You can make stats say almost anything.

The stats say Belanger was a brilliant defensive SS, second only to the Wizard of Oz in the modern era. And I've never seen any offensive metric that said anything other than terrible with the bat in his hand. Whether you like RBI's or OPS+, Belanger sucked with the bat.

Every time I read about how Jeter is the worst defensive SS in baseball, I have to wonder if the person making the claim has watched the Indians at all for the past few seasons. I can't believe that Jeter has a worse range than Jhonny Peralta.

Nabb1:Jason Giambi deserves an assist on that out for not using what passes for a brain in that thick skull and not sliding. At least, the play might have been closer if Posada had to reach further to get the tag.

I agree with you. But if Jeter doesn't make that ridiculous shovel pass, he wouldn't have had to slide, and he didn't expect he'd have to.

senorpogo:Every time I read about how Jeter is the worst defensive SS in baseball,

That's not (quite) what is being said. They say he's been a poor SS, for a very long time. Peralta won't get the chance to build up that much cumulative defensive suck, because he doesn't hit like the young Jeter.

gwowen:senorpogo: Every time I read about how Jeter is the worst defensive SS in baseball,

That's not (quite) what is being said. They say he's been a poor SS, for a very long time. Peralta won't get the chance to build up that much cumulative defensive suck, because he doesn't hit like the young Jeter.

I didn't mean this specific article/measure, but rather the general conversation that always seems to follow in the wake of such articles.

Truly bad defensive middle infielders don't stay middle infielders for long. They either get shipped out of the league or relocated to somewhere else on the diamond (usually early in their career).

So while Jeter may be the worst of the guys who can cut it at shortstop, he's nowhere NEAR the worst infielder of all time like the headline suggests.

congrats stat geek with a grudge! next week an 82 page random stats account on why Mariano Rivera is the worst closer in modern history and you'll have achieved "stat geek for a bad baseball site" hall of fame status.

that much work to make your point actually works against your objective.

Just wanted to point out that by ~1890 every other second baseman had adopted the new-fangled "wearing a glove" strategy. McPhee never did. The last 9-10 years or so of his career, he was the only one not wearing a glove. And he still was a better fielder than the lot of them.

gwowen:senorpogo: Every time I read about how Jeter is the worst defensive SS in baseball,

That's not (quite) what is being said. They say he's been a poor SS, for a very long time. Peralta won't get the chance to build up that much cumulative defensive suck, because he doesn't hit like the young Jeter.

But Jeter is the worst defensive SS in baseball (out of starters, at least). If you compare him to Peralta, Jeter has slightly worse range, and is much worse at turning DPs. Peralta makes more errors, but not a lot more.

Jeter's actually been getting a bit better, though. Over the last two seasons, he's looked roughly average. Bravo!

Nabb1:The Dynamite Monkey: the biggest redneck here: /one of these makes up for an awful lot of regular-season missed grounders against Tampa from before they were good

Best goddamned play I ever saw.

Jeremy Giambi deserves an assist on that out for not using what passes for a brain in that thick skull and not sliding. At least, the play might have been closer if Posada had to reach further to get the tag.

DeWayne Mann:But Jeter is the worst defensive SS in baseball (out of starters, at least). If you compare him to Peralta, Jeter has slightly worse range, and is much worse at turning DPs. Peralta makes more errors, but not a lot more.

Do you a source/link with said info?

Not trying to be hard here. Not saying it doesn't exist. I'd just like to look at it.

I just seriously have trouble believing than anyone out there has worse range than JP.