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Time for me to think about new batteries....and I believe I am starting to get a little understanding of the systems from reading older posts.

First off what I have are two Everstart marine 24 DC batteries, 690MCA, 101 1 amp hours powering my 115 yami, 9.9 yami kicker, both 4 strokes, fish finder/gps, down riggers, no radar, batteries are in the stern. My battery switch is the (old style) off, 1 bat, both batteries. The batteries are cabled together. These two batteries have lasted a couple years but got real weak (slow to turn over the main) last year so I gave them a good charge during the off season and now with less use this year they are weakening again needing a charge - I do not have any "battery savers" hooked up to them when not in use.

So for now, I should charge these two again or maybe just buy another dual purpose marine battery but with a higher MCA - CCA? My thinking is the existing batteries rated a little low?

In the off season I may go to a newer "blue sea" switch with the "add a battery kit" and go for a "starter" battery and a "house" battery as this seems to be the desired set up - I think :shrug9:If I go with the new system it will be because I decided to do a complete rewire. Besides the weakening batteries, I have not had any other battery issues, no dead batteries and no house issues concerning any of the electronics....

Good idea to charge/maintain batteries if they sit for long periods. Flooded cells will self discharge just from sitting, and if left that way over time it can cause premature battery failure. If it isn't too much hassle, giving them a charge once a month is great.

I fish offshore and I'm paranoid about maintaining batteries. If they are suspect, I replace them. Do you know what the manufacture date on your batteries was? Should be a sticker on them somewhere. Flooded cells are good for about 4-5 years if well maintained, 3 if not.

I have an on-board charger and a Blue Sea ACR (what comes in the add-a-battery kit.) Had the Blue Sea set up on the Arima to. It's nice and a great way to go, but you can do fine just keeping the batteries maintained with a good charger once a month.

Battery stickers have a 6/14 date. One battery charged quickly and the 2nd battery is taking quite a bit more time. If I stay with the same set up I'll try to charge batteries more often than once a year.

The past 2 years I ran the battery switch on "both" all year long, this year I ran "one" battery the first half dozen trips then started running the switch on "both" - with my system "both" should be ok?

When you run on "both" you are combining the two... instead of two isolated batteries, you have one big battery. It won't hurt anything, but it kind of negates the benefit of having two batteries. A short will kill both batteries, and if one battery is failing it can kill the other.

Both is intended to be your "get home" option if neither battery on its own has enough charge to start your motor.

I start on my "starting" battery and run on it while heading to the fishing grounds to recharge it then start my kicker and then switch to my deep cycle while trolling and running the FF/sonar, radar if needed and my black box electrolysis unit so the deep cycle gets kept up by the kicker charge. That way I have the start battery fresh for restarting the main motor to get home. I pretty much count on replacing batteries every 2-3 years since I buy Interstate wet cell batteries instead of Optima's!

Over the years I’ve learned that if you deeply discharge a battery even just once, it will probably never be the same and you may as well plan on replacing it early.

I watch my system voltage carefully and try and make sure my voltage never goes below 12.0 volts. If it gets below 11.9 volts, damage is being done. If it gets so low that it won’t start a motor, I consider it toast. Rather than recharge and wait for it to become an issue, I change them out.

Now that I have installed an ACR and have an onboard charger that I plug in when I get home, my batteries are lasting 5 plus years even with my super heavy load. I replaced batteries last year after I noticed the batteries would drain(fishfinder voltage would drop from 12.6 down to 12.0) relatively quickly when I was sitting on anchor.

I really like having the ACR. The voltage shown on my fishfinder is from the house battery. My motors are hooked up to first charge the starting battery, and then when it is topped off, the ACR switches over to charge the house battery. Throughout the day I can watch the voltage on the fishfinder go up when the ACR switches over and my house battery is being charged. Gives me a good feeling to watch the ACR cycle on and know it is all working as designed.

When you run on "both" you are combining the two... instead of two isolated batteries, you have one big battery. It won't hurt anything, but it kind of negates the benefit of having two batteries. A short will kill both batteries, and if one battery is failing it can kill the other.

Both is intended to be your "get home" option if neither battery on its own has enough charge to start your motor.

Threeeweight is correct if both batteries are identical that it becomes one large battery...But many issues that can arises by manually combining, see the below link there are many factors to consider before you put them in parallel.

This is why a ACR is perferred as the charge relay will manage the charge.

My motors are hooked up to first charge the starting battery, and then when it is topped off, the ACR switches over to charge the house battery. Throughout the day I can watch the voltage on the fishfinder go up when the ACR switches over and my house battery is being charged. Gives me a good feeling to watch the ACR cycle on and know it is all working as designed.

This is not true the ACR dose not manage wich battery is charged first nor dose it charge the battery that needs it the most.It will manage when to safely combine and disconnect the batteries in parallel.It simply relys on the system charge voltage to be above 13v for two minutes it then combines the two batteries so that one charge source can be used. It will also not combine if one of the batteries is below it’s under voltage lock out threshold (9.5v) or the charge source is over 16v. If the voltage across either batteries drops below 12.75v for 30 seconds it will disconnect and isolate the batteries.

My motors are hooked up to first charge the starting battery, and then when it is topped off, the ACR switches over to charge the house battery. Throughout the day I can watch the voltage on the fishfinder go up when the ACR switches over and my house battery is being charged. Gives me a good feeling to watch the ACR cycle on and know it is all working as designed.

This is not true the ACR dose not manage wich battery is charged first nor dose it charge the battery that needs it the most.It will manage when to safely combine and disconnect the batteries in parallel.It simply relys on the system charge voltage to be above 13v for two minutes it then combines the two batteries so that one charge source can be used. It will also not combine if one of the batteries is below it’s under voltage lock out threshold (9.5v) or the charge source is over 16v. If the voltage across either batteries drops below 12.75v for 30 seconds it will disconnect and isolate the batteries.

https://www.bluesea.com/resources/1366

Dev

You are correct. I should have used the word “combine” instead of switch over. In practice, on my boat, it combines the batteries once the starting battery voltage goes above 13v and I can watch that happen by monitoring the system voltage on my fish finder. In practice, my house battery discharges while I’m bottomfishing or anchored and then once I start the main, the ACR verifies the starting battery voltage is over 13v and then combines them to recharge the House battery.

Do ACR's fail? Is there a way to test to see if they are operating properly?

Title: Re: Batteries
Post by: DevMah on October 26, 2017, 07:12:34 PM

Yes they do fail but it is rare...Testing/troubleshooting http://assets.bluesea.com/files/resources/technical_briefs/Technical_Brief_ML-Series_FAQ_Matrix.pdfhttp://assets.bluesea.com/files/resources/technical_briefs/Technical_Brief_7610_FAQ_Matrix.pdf

I have a ACR combine led on my dash and dual battery digital meters. I can watch them combine and disconnect just like First Cabin.

Is it necessary to add in the start isolation on the smaller blue sea ACR?

My mechanic friend wasn't too keen on tapping into the start circuit when I asked him about it but he doesn't get too deep into electrical.

I don't have a voltage indication other than the warning light (though I'm not sure it/my eye would pick up the transient voltage drop on a gauge when cranking) so I can't tell if voltage is dropping low enough to damage the electronics.

Mods,Let me know if this should be a separate thread.

Title: Re: Batteries
Post by: DevMah on October 27, 2017, 02:54:58 PM

Start Isolation is always good when cranking your engine over it protects sensitive electronics from voltage spike and drops. When the SI (start isolation) is activated the ACR is disengaged and both batteries are isolated. This isolates the house battery (electronic side) as you apply the cranking load to the start battery any voltage spike or drop that is created is not passed over. As the design of the ACR will not allow it to recombine until there is a 13v charge any voltage spike oscillation has stabilized (oscillation is caused by back EMF of the motor).

This is dependent on the system also ...batteries (age, type, CCA,...) the starter draw,voltage drop, and amount of electronic load.I have installed some systems that the battery are so large and the starter draw so small that the voltage drop dose not go below 12V.For example a new Group 34/78 battery with a 800 CCA installed on a 60 hp motor the start draw is less than 80A, and only one fish finder.

However I always recommend Start Isolation of some type there are many ways to do this...-simply turn off your electronics when starting your engine-Switch off the house battery during cranking(if no ACR installed)-Install the Start interrupt on your ACR

Excellent thread. So many great questions and so many great answers. One question I've had for a long time is is it OK to switch the battery switch from battery "1" to battery "2" while under way? I've heard yes and no but thought I'd throw it out here to get everyone's thoughts.Thank you.

Excellent thread. So many great questions and so many great answers. One question I've had for a long time is is it OK to switch the battery switch from battery "1" to battery "2" while under way? I've heard yes and no but thought I'd throw it out here to get everyone's thoughts.Thank you.

Most(all?) of these Marine switches are “make before break” switches, which means they combine the two batteries briefly as you cycle the switch and never interrupt the flow so everything is fine.

Excellent thread. So many great questions and so many great answers. One question I've had for a long time is is it OK to switch the battery switch from battery "1" to battery "2" while under way? I've heard yes and no but thought I'd throw it out here to get everyone's thoughts.Thank you.

May I ask what is your reason to switch the batteries?Why while under way not idle?

IMOIf I was to switch in the correct make before break switch direction I would do it idle.. not while under way.Assuming that your switch is a make before break.Dev

I normally charge my starting battery while running and never switch over while the engine is running. I've heard both sides of the argument and I haven't been willing to take the risk. If I've been charging the starting battery for several hours, I'd like to switch over and charge the "house battery" but never do as I'm more concerned with keeping the starting battery fully charged.

I normally charge my starting battery while running and never switch over while the engine is running. I've heard both sides of the argument and I haven't been willing to take the risk. If I've been charging the starting battery for several hours, I'd like to switch over and charge the "house battery" but never do as I'm more concerned with keeping the starting battery fully charged.

You can switch both batteries here is what I would recommend:-Make sure your switch is make before break -Have battery meters installed to make sure the battery’s are between 11 to 12.75v...-Switch at idle so that the alt output is low

Once again an ACR is one of the safest ways to combine and charge batteries.

My battery advice is to go with AGM's. They offer so many advantages over lead-acid I can't understand why anyone still uses them.

If you don't have an ACR, I recommend you run with your rotator switch set to "Both/All" while the engine is running. This will keep BOTH batteries charged. Switch it back to 1 or 2 when you are stopped. This way, if you encounter a problem starting and run one battery dead, you are more likely to have charge left in your other battery to keep trying. I also recommend EVERYONE carry an emergency lithium starting pack just in case. Those things are nothing short of amazing.

Lastly, if your batteries will ever be combined (as is the case if you have a traditional rotator switch) you should always replace your batteries at the same time, and with the same type of battery. As they age, a battery's full-charge "float" voltage will drop. If combined with a new battery with higher voltage, the voltage regulator on your engine will see the combined voltage as an average of the two. This will cause the charging circuit to stay open and "cook" the new battery prematurely. Also, to prevent this on a new set of batteries, you should alternate between the two batteries as far as which you use for starting the engine.

Thanks for the info GH, I would love to go with the AGM's but recall they are pretty spendy.....I think I have settled on moving my battery's under the passenger seat, I would put them up front as I do not use the porta potty but I have a 2nd fuel tank in the cuddy and I don't feel comfortable putting the batteries up there - makes me nervous with the rear tank saddled by two batteries but at least there is more venting in the rear.

I'll shop for AGM's and see what I can find, time allowing I'll move my batteries but the rewire will wait till next year.

Re: AGM's... check your local Bimart (if you have them). They carry Exide brand AGM's in the dual-purpose flavor, series 24 size, and are around $150. Cabelas has their house band as well, and sometimes has them on sale.

I am going to replace my batteries this year as well. Currently I have lead acid one start and one deep cycle house battery. Some say it’s not good to have mixed types. I am set up with the Blue Sea switch and ACR. What are the thoughts on start and house deep cycle mix. Been looking at Lifeline AGM’s

Re: AGM's... check your local Bimart (if you have them). They carry Exide brand AGM's in the dual-purpose flavor, series 24 size, and are around $150. Cabelas has their house band as well, and sometimes has them on sale.

No Bimarts in Cali, but I will shop around - I thought the AGM's were twice that.

Thanks

Title: Re: Batteries
Post by: ATGEP on February 13, 2018, 02:28:46 PM

I just replaced my house battery with group 31 agm duracell from Batteries plus. Price was ok at $239 but has a 30month replacement warranty. My start battery is normal wet cell. Time will tell if there are compatibility issues. My logic is all charging starts on the start battery side and the acr will link the 2 batteries when either engine is charging the start battery. Since the AGM can supposedly charge at a fast rate, I dont see how the start battery/engines will overcharge the house. Super excited to have a 105ah house battery for this season.

IMOI strongly recommend you do no not combine a wet cell and AGM.They are two different battery types,

Your logic makes absolutely no sense.When the engine runs it will combine both batteries as soon as 13.5 v is reached (the ACR is not managing the charge to which battery first...but simply combining).both batteries are put into parallel. In parallel the two batteries act as one.The AGM will recover faster then the wet cell.The system will overcharge and damage the AGM as your charging system will still try to charge the wet cell even thou the AGM is fully charged.

I have experience with the 1000 amp lithium ion jump packs are probably sufficient for any Arima-sized outboard. Big enough to jump a v6 or small v8 gas engine if it starts quickly.

From what I have read, big gas V8's are better with the bigger 2000 amp units. Diesel truck engines need bigger still (2500 amps or better).

I have an 800 amp unit that I have used to start my Tahoe (5.3L V8) several times. It usually fires right up despite the main battery being completely shot, and still registers at 99-100% after doing so.

GuysIMOI don't think you need to carry a jump pack if you have a two battery system, why not just add the ACR so that there is no possible way to discharge the start battery and make it automatic... For the added price of a ACR or battery kit and having this switching being done automatically... I would seriously think that common sense kicks in and that you check your batteries/fuel before you head out.

If that's the case then better keep 2 jump packs in case the one you brought was not charged...

The only way this would make sense if you had a single battery system, but I would recommend that you add a second battery... if your charging system was to ever fail while you were out, once the start battery was depleted you would be dead in the water, the jump pack would do nothing for you (as it has a short duration of charges). This also goes if your battery all of a sudden shorted, so you can start your motor to get running with the jump pack but strain/possibly damage your charging system.This is when you would switch to your second deep cycle and have a better chance to make it back to the nearest dock, or be able to use your good battery to radio for help.

If you have a 2 battery system here is what I would do in the event the start battery failed-Switch to battery 2 only try to start-If a no go as a "Hail Mary" combine the battery's and try again.If both battery's combined wont start the engine then you have a possible charging/connection/battery/fuse or starter issue...-Try to pull start or if you have a kicker use it.

If you want to combine batteries manually to charge, please install Voltmeters to check each batteries voltage before combining. Make sure you have over 12v per battery, the worst thing is to combine a good and bad battery and cause further damage.

I always keep my batteries fully charged. I carry a third battery dedicated to the Fishfinder. I always check the terminals for corrosion. I replace my batteries after three years, even if they are good....

GuysIMOI don't think you need to carry a jump pack if you have a two battery system, why not just add the ACR so that there is no possible way to discharge the start battery and make it automatic... For the added price of a ACR or battery kit and having this switching being done automatically... I would seriously think that common sense kicks in and that you check your batteries/fuel before you head out.

If that's the case then better keep 2 jump packs in case the one you brought was not charged...

The only way this would make sense if you had a single battery system, but I would recommend that you add a second battery... if your charging system was to ever fail while you were out, once the start battery was depleted you would be dead in the water, the jump pack would do nothing for you (as it has a short duration of charges). This also goes if your battery all of a sudden shorted, so you can start your motor to get running with the jump pack but strain/possibly damage your charging system.This is when you would switch to your second deep cycle and have a better chance to make it back to the nearest dock, or be able to use your good battery to radio for help.

If you have a 2 battery system here is what I would do in the event the start battery failed-Switch to battery 2 only try to start-If a no go as a "Hail Mary" combine the battery's and try again.If both battery's combined wont start the engine then you have a possible charging/connection/battery/fuse or starter issue...-Try to pull start or if you have a kicker use it.

If you want to combine batteries manually to charge, please install Voltmeters to check each batteries voltage before combining. Make sure you have over 12v per battery, the worst thing is to combine a good and bad battery and cause further damage.

Once again this is just my :twocents: the decision is always yours.

Dev

Sure. But why NOT carry one?

I mean, they cost $60 and take up as much space as a bottle of water. It's not like it's a big investment or hassle to bring along. Plus, if you run into another boater in need of a jump, you can use it to help them. Heck, the moment I realized I needed one was when I was camping and my car battery died and I asked someone if they could give me a jump. He walked down to his boat at the dock and pulled out the jump pack.

GuysIMOI don't think you need to carry a jump pack if you have a two battery system, why not just add the ACR so that there is no possible way to discharge the start battery and make it automatic... For the added price of a ACR or battery kit and having this switching being done automatically... I would seriously think that common sense kicks in and that you check your batteries/fuel before you head out.

If that's the case then better keep 2 jump packs in case the one you brought was not charged...

The only way this would make sense if you had a single battery system, but I would recommend that you add a second battery... if your charging system was to ever fail while you were out, once the start battery was depleted you would be dead in the water, the jump pack would do nothing for you (as it has a short duration of charges). This also goes if your battery all of a sudden shorted, so you can start your motor to get running with the jump pack but strain/possibly damage your charging system.This is when you would switch to your second deep cycle and have a better chance to make it back to the nearest dock, or be able to use your good battery to radio for help.

If you have a 2 battery system here is what I would do in the event the start battery failed-Switch to battery 2 only try to start-If a no go as a "Hail Mary" combine the battery's and try again.If both battery's combined wont start the engine then you have a possible charging/connection/battery/fuse or starter issue...-Try to pull start or if you have a kicker use it.

If you want to combine batteries manually to charge, please install Voltmeters to check each batteries voltage before combining. Make sure you have over 12v per battery, the worst thing is to combine a good and bad battery and cause further damage.

Once again this is just my :twocents: the decision is always yours.

Dev

Sure. But why NOT carry one?

I mean, they cost $60 and take up as much space as a bottle of water. It's not like it's a big investment or hassle to bring along. Plus, if you run into another boater in need of a jump, you can use it to help them. Heck, the moment I realized I needed one was when I was camping and my car battery died and I asked someone if they could give me a jump. He walked down to his boat at the dock and pulled out the jump pack.

Nothing personal... I just giving my opinion...Lets not compare being stuck on land vs water or car to a boat.I'm sure I can ask the same questions...-Why not add the ACR so you don't have any of these issue?

FYI the cost for mini ACR is approx $60 also .https://www.amazon.com/gp/offer-listing/B00DQ9PU7U/ref=dp_olp_new_mbc?ie=UTF8&condition=newhttps://www.ebay.com/itm/Blue-Sea-7601-DC-Mini-ACR-Automatic-Charging-Relay-65-Amp-/112321371163?_trksid=p2385738.m4383.l4275.c10

You can carry a jump pack.. its up to you.

It is very common in forums to discuss what the Pro's and Cons are, at the end of the day we can only recommend things... it up to the user to decide.

Not unless you are running a monster 1 killowatt transducer. Or have a weak battery. More typically I think issues that arise on the water are from tired old batteries, or a short that causes a severe draw. Both are good arguments 2 battieries + a good switch that isolates the two circuits, and an auto charging relay of some kind.

I don't have an issue with the lithium jump packs at all, but IMO they are an emergency backup item, not a replacement for redundant systems. 30 miles offshore, I'd prefer to have 2 batteries than 1 and a jump pack (but maybe 2 batteries + a jump pack isn't a bad idea).