the defense was playing well early- season. I believe they can again. Englelland and Bortuzzo have to rotate, or with despres.Of course overall defense is great if the forwards are incline to play in their own end, in conjuction-junction, with their D!!!

columbia wrote:Hence my suspicion that a shiny new toy behind the bench will change things (in the near to medium run).

my broad take is that sid, geno, neal, letang and fleury are the foundation of this team, and they're all head cases to some degree. and they aren't getting traded, so you need to be able to manage them. i have my doubts bylsma can do that.

Bioshock wrote:Why are we considering firing the coach? I know Bylsma has his flaws but he's a pretty darn good coach IMO.

Because many think that this team is unlikely to win the Cup. That's it. There is no other goal for this team with 87/71 in their mid-20s. Not, "we can make a run", not" we're in the mix" -- we have to win and win now. If there is any doubt over the coaching staff's ability to make that happen, then you make a change. There's been enough in the last playoff series and so far this season that indicates it should be under discussion.

This. If the team can't win the Cup under the current coaching staff, you make a change, period. Even if the team has to resort to trapping. I'd rather watch them play Devils style hockey and win games with their power play than watch them go down in flames. Taking countless penalties out of frustration is inexcusable, and it happens every single game.

Bylsma is not going to get fired if they're 2nd in the conference. If they slip out of the playoff picture, then I think the seat will get hot just like it did for Therrien. They aren't far away from being in 7th and aren't far off from being in 1st. That being said, I don't think there really is much reason to have faith in Bylsma at this point. They have had a lot of different personnel since the cup and none of those moves have seemed to get this team where it needs to be. Injuries have also been a problem. But at some point, you have to look at the coaching. I know there is a lot of parody in the league right now and they can't win the cup every year, but they should be a better team than this. Did anyone honestly think after they won the cup, they would be bounced early in the playoffs three years in a row?

I'm not saying they should fire Bylsma now but I disagree that he's a darn good coach. He certainly is not a great fit for this current team. No improvements whatsoever from last years meltdown other than PP.

the riddler wrote:Bylsma is not going to get fired if they're 2nd in the conference. If they slip out of the playoff picture, then I think the seat will get hot just like it did for Therrien. They aren't far away from being in 7th and aren't far off from being in 1st. That being said, I don't think there really is much reason to have faith in Bylsma at this point. They have had a lot of different personnel since the cup and none of those moves have seemed to get this team where it needs to be. Injuries have also been a problem. But at some point, you have to look at the coaching. I know there is a lot of parody in the league right now and they can't win the cup every year, but they should be a better team than this. Did anyone honestly think after they won the cup, they would be bounced early in the playoffs three years in a row?

I agree, the league is pretty good at poking fun at itself

No but I agree, I don't think anyone could have preditcted the successive playoff failures right after winning the cup with a super young core. Something has to give, and quick.

the riddler wrote:Bylsma is not going to get fired if they're 2nd in the conference. If they slip out of the playoff picture, then I think the seat will get hot just like it did for Therrien. They aren't far away from being in 7th and aren't far off from being in 1st. That being said, I don't think there really is much reason to have faith in Bylsma at this point. They have had a lot of different personnel since the cup and none of those moves have seemed to get this team where it needs to be. Injuries have also been a problem. But at some point, you have to look at the coaching. I know there is a lot of parody in the league right now and they can't win the cup every year, but they should be a better team than this. Did anyone honestly think after they won the cup, they would be bounced early in the playoffs three years in a row?

I agree, the league is pretty good at poking fun at itself

No but I agree, I don't think anyone could have preditcted the successive playoff failures right after winning the cup with a super young core. Something has to give, and quick.

Why does no one mention that one of those playoff "failures" occurred with Sid and Geno out of the line-up? By all accounts that team over-achieved. Now all of a sudden people want to use that season as a measure of failure for HCDB? That's just silly. If you take the top 2 players away from any team in the league they would struggle to make the playoffs, let alone push a team to seven games if they got into the playoffs.

- Two/Too much losing to RED (FLA, Canes) teams. This must STOP pronto, cause the Pens play the Habs next!

- Agree, Neal is not quite "clicking" with Sid, but everything needs time- I like the idea of a shakeup. Nothing major required (unless its GMRS magic), but an honest and beneficial shock to the team- Shero will spend to the cap at some point this season, likely a rental (unless he can pull off magic)- The youth experience movement needs more attention. It deepens the team, increases speed, energy, future- It also allows guys to take a break. Guys like Glass, TK, Orpik... they play a physical game and could use a break in a compressed schedule, and it benefits youth movement- Agree, puck luck didn't work for them in this game, nor the playoffs last year, or the year before.

watched my first non-pens game of the year couple days ago - kings/red wings - pretty eye opening. pens roster not big enough, physical enough. like it or not, this is a finesse roster and had better be smarter and more accurate than their opponent every night.

passing and stick-checking, chipping and dumping have to be dead-on-balls-accurate and they have to sucker more physical teams into making mistakes

This roster has to be smart, clever and ruthless if they want the cup.

the riddler wrote:Bylsma is not going to get fired if they're 2nd in the conference. If they slip out of the playoff picture, then I think the seat will get hot just like it did for Therrien. They aren't far away from being in 7th and aren't far off from being in 1st. That being said, I don't think there really is much reason to have faith in Bylsma at this point. They have had a lot of different personnel since the cup and none of those moves have seemed to get this team where it needs to be. Injuries have also been a problem. But at some point, you have to look at the coaching. I know there is a lot of parody in the league right now and they can't win the cup every year, but they should be a better team than this. Did anyone honestly think after they won the cup, they would be bounced early in the playoffs three years in a row?

I agree, the league is pretty good at poking fun at itself

No but I agree, I don't think anyone could have preditcted the successive playoff failures right after winning the cup with a super young core. Something has to give, and quick.

Why does no one mention that one of those playoff "failures" occurred with Sid and Geno out of the line-up? By all accounts that team over-achieved. Now all of a sudden people want to use that season as a measure of failure for HCDB? That's just silly. If you take the top 2 players away from any team in the league they would struggle to make the playoffs, let alone push a team to seven games if they got into the playoffs.

They were up 3-1 against Tampa Bay. I consider that a disappointment. Even if you want to ignore that series, the series against Montreal in 2010 and Philadelphia last year both were series they should've won. This isn't a small sample size, this is three consecutive seasons and they seem to be on target for another disappointment.

Realistically, Bylsma isn't likely to get fired until after they blow it in the playoffs again. They'll win a few games over the next couple weeks and "everything will be alright again." Until the next time they go through a stretch where they're giving up ~4 goals a game for a while. We'll be talking about this same stuff in April, people will still be saying it's just one game, some will talk about them flipping the switch for the playoffs. They lose in the first round to a lower seed. Hopefully this year they understand that they need to make a change. I said all this stuff last April and really, part of me is still surprised it's actually happening. Gotta keep lowering the bar for this group.

Henry Hank wrote:Hopefully this year they understand that they need to make a change. I said all this stuff last April and really, part of me is still surprised it's actually happening. Gotta keep lowering the bar for this group.

This is exactly how I feel. And exactly the reason I believe they need a new Billy Guerin this year. They need someone to kick them in the ass and say "Settle down!"

Henry Hank wrote:Realistically, Bylsma isn't likely to get fired until after they blow it in the playoffs again. They'll win a few games over the next couple weeks and "everything will be alright again." Until the next time they go through a stretch where they're giving up ~4 goals a game for a while. We'll be talking about this same stuff in April, people will still be saying it's just one game, some will talk about them flipping the switch for the playoffs. They lose in the first round to a lower seed. Hopefully this year they understand that they need to make a change. I said all this stuff last April and really, part of me is still surprised it's actually happening. Gotta keep lowering the bar for this group.

And then they will fire Bylsma, and we will get a new coach and they will go on a surge with new energy and then after 6 months we will be talking about this exact same thing again. This is way deeper than coaching, there are clearly core elements of this team that has a huge problem with mentality. This was apparent during HCMT era and changing coach hid the problems for some time but they have resurfaced. The team that won in 09 was not that good but they won because they had the right mentality, even Crosby said it in an interview lately that he attributes much of that win to just force of will.This culture of occasional lack of discipline or sulking when things are not going well has to at some point come down to core players that have been here all along since the same issues keep arising. That means Crosby, Malkin, Letang, Fleury, Orpik etc. They get it into their head that they are entitled to win games because of their talent and they play as if they don't need to work for it. I don't know how to solve that, I don't think that changing coaching staff is going to fix it because its already been tried once. I think it will only get solved by having Guerin like veteran players on the team that can be that force in the locker room and on the bench to counteract this mentality.

the riddler wrote:Bylsma is not going to get fired if they're 2nd in the conference. If they slip out of the playoff picture, then I think the seat will get hot just like it did for Therrien. They aren't far away from being in 7th and aren't far off from being in 1st. That being said, I don't think there really is much reason to have faith in Bylsma at this point. They have had a lot of different personnel since the cup and none of those moves have seemed to get this team where it needs to be. Injuries have also been a problem. But at some point, you have to look at the coaching. I know there is a lot of parody in the league right now and they can't win the cup every year, but they should be a better team than this. Did anyone honestly think after they won the cup, they would be bounced early in the playoffs three years in a row?

I agree, the league is pretty good at poking fun at itself

No but I agree, I don't think anyone could have preditcted the successive playoff failures right after winning the cup with a super young core. Something has to give, and quick.

Why does no one mention that one of those playoff "failures" occurred with Sid and Geno out of the line-up? By all accounts that team over-achieved. Now all of a sudden people want to use that season as a measure of failure for HCDB? That's just silly. If you take the top 2 players away from any team in the league they would struggle to make the playoffs, let alone push a team to seven games if they got into the playoffs.

1: If we go on some losing streak and putting us in danger of missing the playoffs in the next few weeks.2: We are bounced in the first round of the playoffs3: *We are bounced in the second round of the playoffs while being a top 3 seed team4: We lose in any round (even the finals) by playing the way we did vs Flyers last year

*There are more details to this but for the sake of keeping it short and sweet, I'm not listing my version of the "ifs" on this one.

And to be quite honest, the only person I want coaching this team is Mike Babcock.

Henry Hank wrote:Realistically, Bylsma isn't likely to get fired until after they blow it in the playoffs again. They'll win a few games over the next couple weeks and "everything will be alright again." Until the next time they go through a stretch where they're giving up ~4 goals a game for a while. We'll be talking about this same stuff in April, people will still be saying it's just one game, some will talk about them flipping the switch for the playoffs. They lose in the first round to a lower seed. Hopefully this year they understand that they need to make a change. I said all this stuff last April and really, part of me is still surprised it's actually happening. Gotta keep lowering the bar for this group.

And then they will fire Bylsma, and we will get a new coach and they will go on a surge with new energy and then after 6 months we will be talking about this exact same thing again. This is way deeper than coaching, there are clearly core elements of this team that has a huge problem with mentality. This was apparent during HCMT era and changing coach hid the problems for some time but they have resurfaced. The team that won in 09 was not that good but they won because they had the right mentality, even Crosby said it in an interview lately that he attributes much of that win to just force of will.This culture of occasional lack of discipline or sulking when things are not going well has to at some point come down to core players that have been here all along since the same issues keep arising. That means Crosby, Malkin, Letang, Fleury, Orpik etc. They get it into their head that they are entitled to win games because of their talent and they play as if they don't need to work for it. I don't know how to solve that, I don't think that changing coaching staff is going to fix it because its already been tried once. I think it will only get solved by having Guerin like veteran players on the team that can be that force in the locker room and on the bench to counteract this mentality.

I don't think I buy into the idea that there's something toxic with this group of players. The reality is there has been remarkable coaching stability for the Penguins over the last seven plus years. Most coaches don't last as long as either Bylsma or Therrien have with the Pens. The Devils, for example, are on their seventh coach since the time Therrien was hired. Bylsma has the longest single tenure of a Penguins coach ever. Therrien was only a handful of games away from having the longest Pens tenure at that time. They've never had coaching stability like this. They're hardly driving coaches away at an abnormal rate. I think it's just natural that groups of players outgrow a coaching style after a time.

I think there's merit to bringing in the right veterans to settle this bunch down. It disappoints me that we aren't seeing a more mature team with as much experience as the long-term members of the team have. Still, most of these guys are relatively young. It's hard to say how much these kinds of intangibles matter but if it's not realistic to change the coach at this point, maybe bringing in guys that play smart, responsible, simple hockey and whose voices carry weight can help reinforce the way the rest of the team needs to play.

I always thought that in the Cup season, beyond the coaching change, it was important that they brought in Kunitz, Guerin, and Adams to reinforce what they wanted to do. All three were previous Cup winners, played with some grit, and most importantly played simple north-south games. It's funny but that's exactly the kind of thing that needs to be reinforced again. This group clearly knows how they have to play. A lot of them were doing it two years ago when Crosby/Malkin were hurt and last year without Crosby. With the full squadron, they get stupid and try to play video game hockey for some reason.

Penspal wrote:- Two/Too much losing to RED (FLA, Canes) teams. This must STOP pronto, cause the Pens play the Habs next!

- Agree, Neal is not quite "clicking" with Sid, but everything needs time- I like the idea of a shakeup. Nothing major required (unless its GMRS magic), but an honest and beneficial shock to the team- Shero will spend to the cap at some point this season, likely a rental (unless he can pull off magic)- The youth experience movement needs more attention. It deepens the team, increases speed, energy, future- It also allows guys to take a break. Guys like Glass, TK, Orpik... they play a physical game and could use a break in a compressed schedule, and it benefits youth movement- Agree, puck luck didn't work for them in this game, nor the playoffs last year, or the year before.

Neal hasn't been clicking at all this year sans the power play. The 2nd line has been bunk ES.