French horn pitching...

Not sure if this should be in here...
But I was wondering if anyone else who plays french horn finds that when you play top Ds they sound flat unless you use the Bb side? I can't play the Ds in tune they always sound flat but I can play the E above it
Please help!!!

That's due to the harmonic series. Some notes sound naturally flat, and others are sharp. For example, the 7th harmonic always sounds flat. When you go from one side to the other you are changing into a different harmonic series, which may be naturally tuned differently.

Well, that's the theory anyway - I'm sure if you ask MikeLyons he can explain it so much better than I just have!

Personally (and totally irrelevantly), I used to play virtually everything on the Bb side because I found it easier to pitch. But then, I'm not really a French horn player - I just took it up in 6th form because my teacher thought it would be a good idea, and I only just about managed to scrape grade 7 by the time I left. I've hardly touched the thing since then.....

Well, it should be played on the Bb horn side. From 3rd line D and up should be on the Bb horn. 2nd line G# to C# can be played on either horn. Below G#, play on the F horn. I almost always switch to Bb right at D. C# on F horn, D on Bb.

A common mistake for brass players whose main instrument is not Fr Horn, is to play these D notes 1st valve on the F horn. If you insist on playing it on the F horn, it should be played open. Remember, on Horn, you are one octave higher in the harmonic series than on other brass instruments.

Well I am currently switching from the F side to the Bb side for higher notes as it's easier and my Ds don't sound flat but it just doesn't sound as nice on the Bb side as the F side. But I'll try playing it open, the fingering charts I have for french horn both say first so that's what I played. Thanks very much.
And Dave I did understand what you were saying! Almost anyway... What's the harmonic series? Is that a really stupid question?

Well I am currently switching from the F side to the Bb side for higher notes as it's easier and my Ds don't sound flat but it just doesn't sound as nice on the Bb side as the F side.

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The ease of attack for the D on the Bb horn will be much easier. The tonality may be a bit richer on the F horn, but I never found it enough to warrent playing it on the F side. BTW, what model horn are you playing?

yonhee said:

But I'll try playing it open, the fingering charts I have for french horn both say first so that's what I played.

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The problem with these fingering charts is that they are not written by actual horn players (probably trumpet players ). But, they may be specifing 1st valve to make it a bit easier for the beginner playing a single F horn. The C, D, E in a row all open could prove difficult for the beginner.

The harmonic series is the range of notes you can play on a fixed length of tube. For example, on your horn with open fingering you can play bottom C (on 4 lines and a space below the treble clef stave), C the octave above it (one one leger line), G, C, E, G, Bb (on one ledger line and a space above the stave) and C. You can also carry on upwards, but we'll ignore that for now.

When you press your first valve, you add a bit more tube so that the pitch is lowered by a tone. This means you can play Bb (on 5 ledger lines), Bb, F, Bb, D, F, Ab and Bb. This is the basic principal of brass playing; if you keep adding more bits of tube, you get a different range of notes and eventually you have enough tube to be able to play all the notes.

However, as I said above, not all notes are tuned the same. So if you try to play a top Bb (one line and a space above the stave) on open it will sound flat because it is a 7th harmonic. However, if you play it on first it is an 8th harmonic and it is closer to being in tune so we never use open fingering to play that note. The accepted fingerings that we all know and love are chosen purely because they are closest to what we consider as being in tune, and as you know there are often several different "false" fingerings. These are in fact just different harmonics from different harmonic series.

Thanks Dave! That could be why my form tutor from last year told me I should take physics if I liked music. That confused me a lot at the time.

Brass Nut said:

The ease of attack for the D on the Bb horn will be much easier. The tonality may be a bit richer on the F horn, but I never found it enough to warrent playing it on the F side. BTW, what model horn are you playing?

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It is harder to pitch open on the F side cause it's c,d,e all open but it sounds nicer when I concentrate enough to get it. It depends on what notes I have around it as to which side a play on. I'm on a boosey and hawkes, don't know if it's any good but it's the only one at school.

mikelyons said:

Yonhee, who's let you loose on a French Horn? Do you know which end to blow into? ;-)

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My music teacher! Yes I do! It's the little end. They're silly though they don't have spit valves. Can you imagine if you're right in the middle of a solo and you have to empty the spit It takes ages you have to spin it around.

As for the spit thing, you shouldn’t have to spin it too much to drain it. If you do, it’s a bad design. On my Holton, there are two places that gets 99.9% of it drained.

One, is the main F tuning slide (holding the horn upside down).

The other is the 3rd valve slide on the Bb horn. I angle the horn so the 3rd valve is at the lowest point of the center of gravity, hold down the 3rd & thumb valves for a few seconds to let the spit flow into the slide. Then pull the slide out and empty.

Of course, it all depends on the wrap of the horn. But, it gives you some ideas to try.

Ta, I think mainly I get the spit from the valve that you change from Bb to F on but it just seems to get trapped and then I can't play.
But I'm sure you will all be pleased to know that I can now play Ds!