Commentary on popular culture and society, from a (mostly) psychological perspective

Saturday, August 09, 2008

Where have all the Vikings Gone?

This morning, I read the magazine What Is Enlightenment that Glenn picked up for me from a local health food store because the cover had a number of articles about men including "Constructing the New Man," "19 Powerful Women Tell the Truth about Men," and "A Scandalous Look at Scandinavia: Where women are women and men are too."

Uh, okay, I thought, this can't be good, it's a magazine from a crunchy organic healthfood store with what I assumed would be a somewhat biased picture of the male gender complete with articles describing how men should be more like women. I was mildly surprised to find out that the articles were actually somewhat enlightened themselves. While I didn't exactly love them, I didn't hate them either. The articles were not too bad.

Due to time constraints, I will tell you about the main article that caught my eye--the one on men acting like women in Scandinavia. The author, Elizabeth Debold, sets out to Scandinavia to find out how "gender equality" is playing itself out in that culture. She starts out the article describing how in Sweden, for a man to pee standing up is increasingly considered to be "the height of vulgarity and possibly suggestive of violence." Debold seems surprised to find out that gender equality is not all it's cracked up to be, especially when she discovers that the new equality is nothing more than "patriarchy in drag." Despite progressive sources that suggest that Scandinavians, particularly Danes, are the happiest people in the world, possibly because they are so egalitarian, Debold finds out that men there are not doing so well.

Apparently, relationships and having a good sex life is of the highest value in places like Denmark. Yet, Denmark has one of the world's highest divorce rates. In eight out of ten cases, the woman ends the marriage. Debold attends a men's group in Copenhagen and notes that "the men speak about a vague, almost inchoate experience of victimization."

One man responds to the sense of victimization, "There's a kind of victimization with not knowing which way to go, how you are supposed to be, what to do in a relationship. We're in a double bind." Another man states, "I have tried to give women what they say they want, but they always want something else. Women think that what they want is for the man to really talk and to be at home with the kids. But she doesn't want that for long. She wants a strong man."

A guy named Bo states, "We end up relating to women in a way that is more like woman to woman, not man to woman. We are feminized in our relationships, and they don't last."

There is constant fear in the men there that they are always doing something wrong, and who can blame them? They are told that they are somehow guilty of oppressing women from a young age. In Sweden, little boys are given dolls to play with and girls are given tractors. Pupils in Demark are sent to do traditional women's jobs because of an "equality" project. All of this indoctrination and brainwashing is, in my opinion, sick and abusive.

Let's hope the US never goes the way of Scandinavia--for all the talk about equality, it sounds like the men there are nothing but second class citizens who are lost, lonely and victimized. We must all keep up the fight for men's rights and fight male bashing and misandry whenever we see it in order to keep this from happening in our country.

238 Comments:

Great commentary! And not to be flippant, but I consider it a positive sign in the US that "manly" reality shows such as Dirty Jobs, The Deadliest Catch, and Ice Truckers have caught on. Perhaps we could send Mike Rowe to Scandinavia?

That article is surprising and sad. Denmark has always been a hardy, proud, tough little country. Their response to the Holocaust was magnificent. I'd hate to think they're giving that up in the name of political correctness.

I don't really believe in equality -- people's intelligence, abilities, and character differ too much for me to do that -- but I'd think that even the people who did would realize that equality doesn't have to mean sameness.

Kimberly, I agree that's a positive sign. I think the trouble in American culture is that we're all encouraged to be eternal teenagers, not men and women, but a nation of boys and girls is at least more interesting than a nation with only one gender. The catfights in Scandinavia must be awful. :)

Be warned that there are people in the U.S. that want to feminize boys, make them play with dolls, and such. I remember a women who gave my oldest son, on his first birthday, a child's book on girls becoming doctors, policemen, etc. Ironically, her son later spent time in the federal pen for child pornography.

Considering standing to pee "the height of vulgarity and possibly suggestive of violence" shows how one-sided the Scandinavian version of "equality" is. Conceptually and in real life equality is great, to a point.

Equality loses its worth when it begins dragging people down, or makes them sit to pee. Talk about penis envy! In prison people live more equally than just about anywhere else. But they're still in prison.

Dr. Helen This is not new in the USA. Phillip Wylie wrote about "The age of Momism" fifty years ago. Among the things at that time were 'Moms' railing against the military for being 'abusive' to recruits. What the drill instructors were doing was teaching them to save their lives and defeat the enemy. It has progressed to the effort to reduce all chance of injury on the playground. Can't play dodge ball anymore. Can't ride a bicycle w/o a helmut (even though for the average kid the chances of a severe head injury are minimal). Can't allow kids to take chances of any kind. How does that prepare them for real life. AND sexual harassment is taken to the extreme where a boy (of six) who kisses a little girl is suspended and put in a special school. What idiocy!

I read Michelle' Langley's book "Women's Infidelity 2" that is in a format of an interview with a woman cheating on her husband. Langley lays out all the ways our society oppresses men very effectively.

One good example she gives is sexuality versus emotionality. She said every woman in America understands that there is something completely unfair about the rules of sex: a man can have quite a few partners and few condemn him, but a woman is constantly monitoring her sexual behavior as to not be labeled a slut.

What most woman don't realize is that the same dynamic is in play with emotionality. Women can freely indulge their feelings the way men can freely indulge their sexuality. And similar to the woman who monitors her sexuality to avoid being seen as a whore, men constantly monitor their behavior and feelings as to avoid being labeled a *ussy.

She admitted that she used to believe that men had it made, and came to realize that nothing could be further from the truth, since we've been kicking down men for half a century at live in a time when its almost sacreligious to say anything negative about women.

Arguably a little off-topic, yet memorable:Mark Steyn:The invaluable Brussels Journal recently translated an interview with the writer Oscar van den Boogaard from the Belgian paper De Standaard. A Dutch gay "humanist" (which is pretty much the trifecta of Eurocool), van den Boogaard was reflecting on the accelerating Islamification of the Continent and concluding that the jig was up for the Europe he loved. "I am not a warrior, but who is?" he shrugged. "I have never learned to fight for my freedom. I was only good at enjoying it."

Ironically, Discovery Channel's European version of Dirty Jobs has... a Danish host.

It's Peter Schmeichel, a world famous soccer player ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peter_Schmeichel ). A 6ft 4in brick famous for his on-field temper and shouting. So yeah, manly.

Not necessarily disagreeing with the post, but I would probably focus more on e.g. attempts to force company boards to have more than 40% women (in effect in Norway, being discussed in Denmark), than I would things I consider distractions like (some) men not standing up to pee. But I know that Americans think of things like that differently. (I'm Danish, btw.)

@smitty1e: "I have never learned to fight for my freedom. I was only good at enjoying it."

That's a great point. Here in America, I see the people who have always enjoyed freedom undermining those who sacrifice for it. What's more, it is the ones who have never known anything but freedom that think they are oppressed (spoiled I guess).

@sebastian: "than I would things I consider distractions like (some) men not standing up to pee. "

I can't get over that absurd notion. Banning peeing standing up because women can't do it like men can. Maybe someone should ban multiple orgasms since men can't do that like women can.

Sorry, if that sounded "vulgar" as they put it. But come on people, on the listing of world problems, a nature-made physical difference seems to rank about 4,956,423,276,249,187th on the list of world problems. I'm much more world about the threats of terrorism, feminism, and socialism.

I spent some time in Sweden about 15 years ago some years after they had introduced paternity leave so dads could help raise children from infancy. The story I got from the women was that at first the men tried to act like women and wore things like loose corduroy pants. After a few years they realized they were not women and went back to wearing jeans and being men. "And then we all heaved a sigh of relief, and we could all go back to being women." I believe we have not worked out all the social consequences of 'the emancipation of women' - it is still a work in progress, but compared to cultures that have not even started we are doing pretty well. Just ask Ayaan Hirsi Ali.

"THE YEAR WAS 2081, and everybody was finally equal. They weren’t only equal before God and the law. They were equal every which way. Nobody was smarter than anybody else. Nobody was better looking than anybody else. Nobody was stronger or quicker than anybody else. All this equality was due to the 211th, 212th, and 213th Amendments to the Constitution, and to the unceasing vigilance of agents of the United States Handicapper General..."

rh, "inchoate" is imperfectly formed, not completely formed; same root as chaos.

I think the "don't stand to pee" thing is stronger than one might suspect: at least in German, to be a "sitzpinkler" is a fairly strong word for "sissy". I'd bet money that a similar idiom exists in Scandanavian languages.

To pee standing or sitting for a man ought not to be a question of masculinity, but of circumstances. In a home situation, sitzpinkeln is the courteous thing to do -- ever cleaned a bathroom, fellas?.

OTOH, an alleged male who opts to sit when there's an available pissoir or appropriate tree is probably just a candy-ass, but a guy who splatter's all over kingdom come in a house (especially someone else's) is acting like an inconsiderate boor.

Not quite on-topic, but while considering Sweden or Scandinavia vis-a-vis America, it's worthwhile, I think, recalling prominent American socialist Michael Harrington's comment as to why in his view socialism never caught on in the United States, versus Sweden, for instance, where it did. From an interview on the MacNeil-Lehrer Newshour, broadcast 1989-08-02:

Robert MacNeil: “Finally, tonight, we remember political activist Michael Harrington, who died yesterday; he was 61 years old. Harrington began his career as a leftist political organizer, author, lecturer, and teacher in the early 50s. He became co-chairman of the Democratic Socialists of America in 1983. Among his books was The Other America: Poverty in the United States, published in 1962; it was widely viewed as helping set the scene for the Johnson Administration's War on Poverty. I spoke with Harrington a year ago, when he was already suffering from the cancer that led to his death. I asked why he thought socialism had never caught on in the United States.”

Michael Harrington: “I think that's very complicated, but to just tick off a number of the reasons:

“Number one, we're a presidential country, not a parliamentary country. In Canada, so much like us, there's a socialist party which in the polls right now is at about 28-29 percent, which has been 20 percent or better for years. In part that's because in Canada you can vote for your socialist candidate for Parliament, and he or she can then affect the Executive in the Parliament.

“Number two: Because the United States in the period when most European workers were becoming socialist, which was the period roughly from 1880 to 1914, in the United States that was the period in which it was more important that you were Catholic, Protestant or Jewish, white or black, Italian, Irish, etc. That is to say, our race, our ethnicity, all of those complexities made it difficult to develop a class consciousness when people were much more ethnically and religiously and racially conscious.

“Finally, the most complex of all, in my opinion. There's a sense in which I think America is the most socialist country on the face of the earth right now — which is one of the reasons we don't have a socialist movement. By that I mean that the United States I think has always been one of the most egalitarian, open, non-deferential societies. We've never had any real Tories — any real conservatives — in America. One of the reasons that Canada has a socialist movement is that our Tories went to Canada after the Revolution, and sat around and told the workers that they were human refuse: that they were no good! And one of the things that generates socialist consciousness is having a bunch of upper-class snobs trying to push people down — we've never had it. And, I think, in a crazy way — socially — I've always thought that America is really much more socialist than Sweden!”

It sounds like in Scandinavia the old saying "If I had two, I'd be king said the queen" has morphed into "I don't need two to be king said the queen; I've got yours". It might be interesting to trace this legacy from Betty Friedan. I wonder how many would say: "But I didn't mean this!" But they did. The whole idea is to destroy the male. Though this is a bit off the topic, a great book is Morton Hunt's "The Natural History of Love". Get the 1994 revision if you can still find it. I got mine on Amazon.

Nicole - Thanks for the link to Harrison Bergeron. I read the story years ago. It may be the best illustration of the folly of the blind pursuit of "equality" out there. Plus, Vonnegut always came up with great names like "Diana Moon Glampers."

It doesn't sound like the Danish women are any happier, even though they are better off than the men. They have been taught to expect one kind of behavior from men, they ask for that, and obviously that doesn't do it for them because they wind up leaving the guy. So they're missing the more traditional male role/behavior and can't fix the situation either. What a mess.

Helen Smith wrote: "Debold seems surprised to find out that gender equality is not all it's cracked up to be, especially when she discovers that the new equality is nothing more than 'patriarchy in drag.'"

What do Debold mean by "gender equality?" It's good that one is not prevented from voting because of one's gender.

The end result of any radical activist movement, e.g. militant feminism, is unlikely to be considered positive by anyone other than the radicals. Unfortunately we have a major political party (no names, but begins with "D") that embraces activist groups including environmental radicals, feminist radicals, Black radicals, gay radicals, abortion radicals... And they attract these groups (and votes, and fawning press coverage) by creating and supporting legislation/laws which are sympathetic to their causes. In the absence of that party's worldview and pandering, we as a country would be far better off.

P rich wrote: “The end result of any radical activist movement, e.g. militant feminism, is unlikely to be considered positive by anyone other than the radicals. Unfortunately we have a major political party (no names, but begins with ‘D’) that embraces activist groups including environmental radicals, feminist radicals, Black radicals, gay radicals, abortion radicals..”

What do you mean by “radical activist movement?”

P rich wrote: “And they attract these groups (and votes, and fawning press coverage) by creating and supporting legislation/laws which are sympathetic to their causes. In the absence of that party's worldview and pandering, we as a country would be far better off.”

You people need to get out more. I've been to Sweden and Denmark. The men there are perfectly masculine, and if anybody had actually complained about men peeing standing up (which I doubt,) they'd be ridiculed. The article is nothing fodder for small-minded provincialism. What, getting tired of making fun of the girly French?

1. I knew a Danish guy when I was working overseas in Saudi Arabia. Great guy. One day he told me that he has always told his daughters to "use men for your pleasure, and then get rid of them!" Okay. Maybe not such a great guy.

2. All this talk about men peeing. Alright. I like to pee outdoors. Particularly with my Dell Jukebox blasting "Everybody Have Fun Tonight" by Wang Chung. I can dance around while I whizz all over the juniper bushes.

I'm not so sure what all this peeing stuff has to do with the post, but I am perfectly happy to play along if that's what's required.

I think Marcus Aurelius said something about peeing outdoors...or did I just dream it?

Well I lived in Finland for over three years a couple years back and still get over there once or twice a year and at least the Finns have no problem peeing. Not only in the urinals but on weekends most everywhere. Not only that but Finnish women have this nasty reputation of also going pee wherever they feel comfortable to relieve themselves. Helsinki was also the only place I have ever seen women take over a stall in the mens room. As for the peeing standing up mentioned for Sweden, if anything it might be a response to Swedish men peeing in public because I have been told that it is a problem there as well.

One thing that does become obvious when living over there is that many of the men do seem to display strong feministic traits. Starting with their hair, facial features and body movements. It doesn't help when they then go an wear a man skirt. Yes, men wearing ankle length skirts, normally over a pair of pants.

I wondered if this feminization is partly a result of all the 'manly' genes going to sea with the exploring vikings, never to return. And which men got to stay home and watch the flock?

"Be warned that there are people in the U.S. that want to feminize boys, make them play with dolls, and such." -- DADvocate

I used to play with 'dolls'. Albeit they were rather rigid in nature and frequently mono-colored. Nor did they speak or bat their eyes. And I didn't put clothes or accoutrements on them. They were all ready all accoutremont. [Please pardon my French.]

And they all had guns. They were toy soldiers.

Regards,

Chuck(le)P.S. When I grew up, the 'toy soldiers' would dress and equip themselves....

I should point out to all the foreign commenters that even if Dr. Helen were guilty of the oh-so heinous crime of "xenophobia" (and she isn't), it's not against the law to be such in the United States -- and it's especially not against our law to say so.

However, acting like a bunch of whiny little twerps doesn't exactly help your cause, you nannystatist girlymen.

And if Blogsnot takes action to silence Dr. Helen, I know of several alternative hosting services that would pounce on the opportunity to host her website.

We Americans don't have to hide behind the skirts of authority figures to get our point across: we're capable of standing up for ourselves.

Cuz is understandably upset by the uncritical presentation and acceptance of absurd lies that denigrade his heritage. You would be too, if the shoe were on the other foot. But if it makes you feel better, why don't you start calling Swedish meatballs Freedom balls, or something. That'll show'em. And yes, I do believe the reason for your acceptance of this claptrap is xenophobia. It's fun to ridicule people who you know nothing about, isn't it?

Does anyone know if Scandinavia has increasing problems with gangs/fighting and similar activity? I can imagine that many young men would react towards de-masculinization by rebelling. I think that a society that suppresses reasonable forms of masculinity (to the point of making boys piss sitting down!) would end up with unreasonable forms, as boys and men have to learn how to act without any real guidance from society.

She starts out the article describing how in Sweden, for a man to pee standing up is increasingly considered to be "the height of vulgarity and possibly suggestive of violence.

May be she is talking about a few anecdotes that you haven't heard about - not widespread, but possibly signaling the onset of an alarming trend? In any case that is only part of the article and it isn't wise to make much of a fuss about it.

That men are always told that they are likely to be instigators of violence is a fact, and more so in more liberal countries. That is perhaps much more of an insult to the true Scandinavian heritage than anything has been written in this article.

Here is an example : there is no popular movement with a tag line "All men are bastards" - but if you search facebook you can find at least four "men are bastards" groups - two with over 600 members and two with over 200 members. This certainly is a bad trend, but not the kind that one is likely to notice in his/her society.

Similarly there could be trends that have started showing up in certain ultra-liberal Swedish institutions but haven't gained much popularity yet. All I am saying is : perhaps you should take the trouble of listening to which specific incidents Debold is referring to. Let us wait and see if Dr. Helen will clarify on the matter.

Froginthewell: Again sweden is a small country and there are no hidden-agenda-parties etc lobbying for this matter.Besides making girls and boys more equal is a positive thing to us and we dont see its a negative thing at all.

"Besides making girls and boys more equal is a positive thing to us and we dont see its a negative thing at all." -- Cuz

Yeah. That's why the Scandinavians have been such fierce warriors since Finland v. Soviets '39. But I'll give the Norwegians credit for resisting the Nazis better than most others in the area. The Finns had problems with the Soviets that interfered with their policy decisions.

As for the Swedes and the Danes....well...history speaks for itself.

By the by....I'm 100% Scandie descent; 75% Finn, 25% Dane.

But I'm 1000% American. When the 2000 Census form can around, I scratched out all references to ethnicity and nationality and wrote in "AMERICAN".

The way I see it, if you came here to be free, you need to commit to the ideals of this country.

Hope that helps....but I have my doubts.....

Regards,

Chuck(le)[Great men, great nations, have not been boasters and buffoons, but perceivers of the terror of life, and have manned themselves to face it. -- Ralph Waldo Emerson]

P.S. US has a lot of 'terrors of life' facing US, but at least we recognize them better than you report the Danes and other Scandies do.

"Yeah. That's why the Scandinavians have been such fierce warriors since Finland v. Soviets '39. But I'll give the Norwegians credit for resisting the Nazis better than most others in the area. The Finns had problems with the Soviets that interfered with their policy decisions.

About the peeing... I don't know about Scandinavia but I recently read on a blog that it's an issue in Germany. The thing is that toilets are made with a ledge inside (it's complicated but likely googleable) and peeing standing up is likely to splatter pee all over. If they have similar toilets in Scandinavia I might be sympathetic to the idea that peeing standing up is aggressive toward the person who is likely to clean up.

Second point: The first comment mentions Dirty Jobs and Deadliest Catch, etc. These are my kid's favorite shows; daughters and son. Those and Good Eats. I suppose it's a good sign for young men in particular because it shows people doing hard dirty dangerous work (oh, they like that pest control show too) that needs to be done and gives a great deal of respect to those who do it. I think it's valuable for girls, too, to see that admiration and respect for the unpleasant and often thankless tasks that keep the world working.

Pelto: thats offtopic, besides if you are american blaming sweden for their positions in wars etc you cant be bright.I could go on for days lacing up artrocities that us made (all from nazi collaboration to the 911-made-up-plot)

An anonymous internet troll, scurrying off to "tell Teacher" about a blog post he doesn't like, is in no position to talk about masculinity. I've got a published article in a left-leaning magazine, and I'm supposed to believe it's wrong based on the authority of some guy named "cuz"?

However, I hope you really are a Swedish man. Now that you've learned to stand up to an American woman, at least a little bit, maybe you'll manage the same thing closer to home.

Cuz, the point was that Fins and Norwegians are/were fierce warriors (and/or resistors) and that the Swedes were collaborators with the Nazis. I'm not sure I've heard much about Danes (that was good).

It's sort of a shallow insult but I'll take it, being of Norwegian and Swedish decent myself, and caring a great deal for my heritage of stoicism, warrior spirit, and exploration.

There's a whole lot to be proud of and most of it is, for lack of a better word, "manly". I'm curious as to why it was ever so necessary to work so very hard for women's equality when it seems to me that the heritage for Scandinavian women is to be fierce, physically strong, and utterly capable people.

Unless it's not about women and men at all but about pacification. Heck, Cuz doesn't even see anything wrong with submission as a standard of behavior, insisting that Dr. Helen submit herself to the judgment of others... something this descendant of Scandinavian immigrants finds repulsive to be sure.

I find it hard to believe that there is not a negative reaction in Scandinavia, no matter how much it turns certain person's stomach to hear unwelcome ideas, to the pacification of the culture and promotion of submission as a virtue. I *do* think I've heard there is a bit of resurgence in paganism, for example. And while that tends to appeal to women, it gives a very clear and very war-like role to men. (I half expect that this will be the answer to Islam in Northern Europe since Christianity has been made to have so little backbone. I have faith in those who share my heritage that when push comes to shove they will not lie down passively in the name of tolerance or any other excuse for submission to the whim of History, even if it means resurrecting Thor.)

The push for equality for women in this country has had a negative result for men, and it's not the equality that's the problem.

Consider 6th grade orientation last night for my daughter. The Math and Science teacher made a big point to show a CBS news report about how girls are every bit as good as boys in math. They needed encouragement when everyone thought boys did better and now they need encouragement when it's proven that boys aren't better.

"Are you asking if he's a Scottish Highlander?"Nope. Kilts are OK if your Scottish or playing bagpipes.

What I am referring to are skirts made for men. Kind of hard to describe. If you have been to Helsinki for long enough, you have probably seen one. Kind of like a skirt for a woman but cut for a man's shape.

I have never seen anyone in the US wearing one, bu if they were here, it would be something the real liberals would be putting on.

"Consider 6th grade orientation last night for my daughter. The Math and Science teacher made a big point to show a CBS news report about how girls are every bit as good as boys in math. They needed encouragement when everyone thought boys did better and now they need encouragement when it's proven that boys aren't better." -- Synova

Why am I suddenly reminded of the passage in that Old Book...

...thy [woman's] desire shall be to thy husband... -- Genesis 3:16

Not to leave out that last part about how...

thy desire shall be to thy husband, and he shall rule over thee.

I'm beginning to wonder about what He meant by that. And how that other 'guy' might be playing upon that of late.

Regards,

Chuck(le)[The greatest trick the devil ever pulled was to convince people that he doesn’t exist.]

We are not blaming Sweden for anything, just laughing at trends that seem to be occurring throughout western socialized countries - & yes partially here in the US – where the traditional roles of men are in essence being feminized. You know, the point being made.

We in no way meant to imply that Swedish or Scandinavian men are in fact less virile or manly than their American counterparts, your birthrates alone do this. Why would we be xenophobic to a nation that in all likelyhood will cease to exist within 50 years?

Fred Fry said:What I am referring to are skirts made for men. Kind of hard to describe. If you have been to Helsinki for long enough, you have probably seen one. Kind of like a skirt for a woman but cut for a man's shape.

I realize this isn't her blog, but given Ann Althouse's aesthetic critique of men in shorts, wouldn't you think she'd bear similar severe criticisms of skirted men? Where do you throw your lot in that great debate, Helen?

I see you raised the white flag since you moving away from my questions and instead beggining to complain on my english skills, you know better grandpa. Or should we flip it? You write in my languange? Or any other languange for that matter? hah

You are just jealous for living in the the biggest terror-country ever.

Do you want me to proceed the "look up" list?

Cuz,

As far as your poorly written, bullet-point list of anti-American & conspiracy laced talking points, funny you overlooked the majority of great qualities the US has actually accomplished.Provided the needed support to beat the Germans in WWI & WWIIFunded & aided in rebuilding Europe after WWIIProtected Europe by providing technology, money & troops throughout the Cold WarCare to compare the number of Nobel Prizes of won by America vs. Sweden, or the number of medical cures/breakthroughs, vaccines or technology of America?Care to compare the amount of aid, resources, money, time, food, energy given by the US to any nation on the planet vs. Sweden?

If you & the rest of the European anti-American blowhards can do it better then us, then for once & all, shut your pie-holes & do it! Out produce us, defend yourselves, govern yourselves & stop running to us when your own idiotic political schemes falter & leave your continent in ruins, because the next time it happens, as it has time & time again, it may not be in our best interests to provide it.

Instead of mocking your more productive betters, squandering your time on raising unfounded cries of racism, maybe you & your country should actually work at reproducing enough citizens to maintain your welfare laced, over-burdened economy.

cuz - Swedes are the same race as the majority of Americans and myself. Makes it hard to be racist against Swedes.

Maybe the info in the magazine was erroneous. Now Boris rather civilly disagreed with the article although was somewhat insulting to Helen. He made to threat to shut her down.

However, I disagree with Boris' statement: "Cuz is understandably upset by the uncritical presentation and acceptance of absurd lies that denigrade his heritage. You would be too, if the shoe were on the other foot."

Boris misses the point in saying you are "understandably upset." If the article is untrue, being upset is understandable but your actions aren't. Boris also presupposes feelings on our part by saying "You would be too,..." It's always fun to assign some supposed action, feeling or belief to someone else but logically incorrect.

Dadvocate: Yepp Its correct I was mad because I dont like when people talk trash about your country, I wouldnt comment at all if it were any substanial truth in it but there is none and therefore I comment.

You are more than welcome to visit scandinavia and see for yourself how the situation is :)

Cuz,Fine, though we outnumber you & produce what I assume you consider a moderate amount of goodness per population. Shall we compare New York City w/ it’s 6 to 10 million people & their accomplishments alone? After all numerically the numbers match… accomplishments still don’t, funny that.

But unfortunately for you & your “ultra-male” counterparts all throughout Europe, you are not reproducing fast enough to maintain the lifestyles you currently enjoy & all w/o having to maintain a free standing military. That might explain why the female initiates 80% of the divorces & why you have to import more fertile -likely to reproduce - people into your wonderfully, natural populous declining country?

It's not strange at all seeing this since the 60s and 70s and with all the talk of women's rights. I believe women should have equal rights but that doesn't mean denying men their rights to be men either.

One of my favorite writers, Andre Norton, wrote science fiction and fantasy but she dealt with the relationships between men and women and true equality. In her Witch World series she wrote about a civilization in decline because the witches took the best and brightest female children to train as witches who were brought up to believe that if they had sex with a man they would lose all their powers. Into this mix came Simon Tregarth of Earth who met, fell in love with and married one of the witches, Jaelith, who did not lose her power but gained a new kind of power that combined with Simon's to make them formidable allies. The witches ostracized Jaelith and were shocked because she didn't lose her powers.

The balance of power between male and female is a common thread through most of Norton's books and one that we would do well to emulate or we might find ourselves in a situation where women are women and so are the men and our numbers rapidly dwindling.

I'm pure Scand. The Karlings were even friggin' royalty. I'm having a gas reading this stuff. Fun and if you can't laugh at yourself and your history, you are not a decent enough man. Yet one more strike.

Guess what Boris, rob fetters provided a link to a very detailed story supporting the topic. And the response?...............................................................

Chicken permo: I googled your name and got some interesting stuff, maybe a pic(!) plus I saw you love that mcgayn candidate, and you like the bible, ! gee maybe we got something in common becaus I read this really good science fiction novel the other day.

"Chicken permo: I googled your name and got some interesting stuff, maybe a pic(!) plus I saw you love that mcgayn candidate, and you like the bible, ! gee maybe we got something in common becaus I read this really good science fiction novel the other day." -- Cuz

...I've become a 'love interest'.

Must have something to do with the problems Dr. Helen is discussing in this thread.

"One of Phillips's most attention-grabbing chapters posits the theory that the Bushes were involved in the rise of Adolf Hitler. While he correctly notes that Brown Brothers Harriman, an investment-banking firm employing Prescott Bush and George H. Walker (George W.'s great-grandfather), invested in Nazi-era German companies, Phillips fails to note that it was Averell Harriman, later FDR's ambassador to Moscow and Truman's commerce secretary, who initiated these investments (and some in Soviet Russia) before either of the Bushes joined the firm. Prescott Bush did not oversee these investments; the reality is that he was involved almost exclusively in managing the firm's domestic portfolio. It was Harriman who largely managed the foreign investments and, accordingly, it was he who met German and Soviet leaders."

Cuz is understandably upset by the uncritical presentation and acceptance of absurd lies that denigrade his heritage. You would be too, if the shoe were on the other foot.

Well no. I'm Jewish and Jon Stewart called me a kike (in jest to make fun of exaggerated sensibilities). I don't give a damn. As long as you are not coming for me at 3AM. And if it gets to that I plan to have a few surprises. I will not go quietly.

But other than that call me anything you like. I will judge accordingly. Free speech does have its advantages. You know who your enemies are.

What has wussified the Euros is they lack the Right of self defense. Get a gun. Shoot a few rounds. The exaggerated fears tend to evaporate. Or if you are a Brit get a knife. If you are an Ozzie: get a new government.

I dont wanna be affiliated with such "people" on this board in case people google my nick.Embaressed,..you said it.I would also be embaressed if I got caught posting up false informations about people in a country Id never met/heard of, ..just base my facts and life by articles I came by..

I'm sympathetic to your language problem. Lots of people speak American. Few speak Swedish. It is in the main a function of the Anglos saving the world from that German with the funny mustache and exaggerated oratorical style.

But I hear you guys did pretty well in that dust up, iron ore, bearings, and what not. And not far to ship it either. Keeps the profits up. I don't blame you for having so much pride in your country. You have a lot to be proud of.

I think it balances out in the end. WE took a lot of scientists from Germany after the war. And before and during. (that Einstein guy for instance) You sold them iron ore. Even steven then?

I think you are just afraid people who read your words will see that you have no repect for liberty or freedom of speech and think of you as a real symbol of McCarthyism (as Ed above noted). Anyway, why not take up your cause with the magazine that wrote the article, why come here to say that I am putting out false information? If you really cared more about your cause than trolling on this blog, then you would write a letter to the editor and make your views known. The link to the magazine is included in my post.

Ive made a letter and sent it before I entered this blog.Im not against freedom of speech but again, spreading false information about a particular type of people hasnt nothing to do with freedom of speech, I guess you guys wouldnt like if I put up a blog clowning USA with false information.

"Ive made a letter and sent it before I entered this blog.Im not against freedom of speech but again, spreading false information about a particular type of people hasnt nothing to do with freedom of speech..."

It has everything to do with free speech, which is either permitted or it's not, particularly on the Internet.

"I guess you guys wouldnt like if I put up a blog clowning USA with false information."

We'd view it as potential blog fodder, not threaten to have their account deleted.

But I get your resent because we put your best customer out of business. That has got to hurt.

We are truly sorry. I hear that the Russians could use some commercial help. Have you made them an offer? Seems like just your kind of people. Or them Iranians. They seem to have it in for the Jews. It is not too late to give them a hand. And if any one complains well tell them: "It is just business." We are not responsible. Especially when a good opportunity comes up to sell at above market rates. No customer with cash refused.

OK, so let's get this straight--in order to defend your blowing a gasket over an article on gender relations in Scandinavia, your defense is that "Hitler started out making false information about a type of people in 40s"?

How is this off-topic? Isn't your response "Hitler started out making false information about a type of people in 40s, but I guess you accept such acts" a direct follow-up to "Ive made a letter and sent it before I entered this blog.Im not against freedom of speech but again, spreading false information about a particular type of people hasnt nothing to do with freedom of speech, I guess you guys wouldnt like if I put up a blog clowning USA with false information."

I thought those two posts of yours were connected. Am I mistaken about that?

Cuz: "I guess you guys wouldnt like if I put up a blog clowning USA with false information."

Uh, that's what you've been doing in this thread. All that crap about the EEEVVVILLLS of the US? Either false or purposefully interpreted in the most twisted manner possible.

If the information in the article Dr. Helen is discussing is false, you should be able to cite sources quite easily. Instead, you've been blustering and abusive -- which makes it appear you CANNOT refute the article's claims.

"Incidentally, mentioning McCarthy is pretty rich from a guy who threatened to turn a blogger into Google because he didn't like one of her posts."

Maybe we should talk about what free speech is because it's blindingly obvious that people don't know anymore.

Free speech is EXACTLY the speech and opinions that you don't want to hear. Other wise it would be approved speech only.

And as much as we want to lable Cuz a troll, it is, in fact the definition of free speech in Europe. All APPROVED speech is free speech. Un-approved speech is illegal. (Europe and Canada, too.)

And the thinking behind this... Cuz is concerned that if Helen is allowed to say these things that suggest there might, maybe, be something unhealthy happening to men in Sweden or Denmark or Scandinavia in general, that everyone will uncritically believe it.

Just LIKE Cuz uncritically believes all the crap he has been spewing about America.

The only way to keep people from believing all this vastly untrue stuff is to stop it from being printed and stop it from being said. Speech must be approved speech or people will believe bad stuff.

Point on Cuz's side of this argument is the demonstration of Cuz believing all sorts of outlandish lies... I suppose that because those lies were not *suppressed* that they must be true.

Not so, friend.

In America people are not suppressed from putting up stupid web sites that lie about America or lie about 9/11 or have opinions that people think are stupid. This is the OPPOSITE of fascism. Fascism is controlling what people are allowed to say to be certain that bad stuff doesn't spread. It's requiring that speech be approved speech only.

So maybe you don't realize that you can't believe all you hear and all you read because you're used to having someone sort it all for you and approve it ahead of time and punish those that would mislead you.

I fully support the right of others to hold and express beliefs that I disagree with, even ones that are obviously wrong.

What I take issue with is trolling, i.e., not necessary just having different beliefs, but raiding sites with the express intent of stirring up trouble, inciting confrontation, etc., with no real interest in dialogue. With trolls, there can be no point of agreement or discussion, just havoc.

Young Swedish women now demand that their men use the lavatory in a strictly sedentary posture - partly, I am told, for reasons of hygiene, but, more crucially, because a man standing up to urinate is deemed to be triumphing in his masculinity and, by extension, degrading women.

Any women who can't understand why men don't want to get married, the statement above is part of the answer your searching for.

Since we are discussing Sweden and Hitler, why not throw socialism/communism into the mix as well:

***********************A recent opinion piece in Biblioteksbladet magazine (a periodical for Swedish librarians) denounced the government's plan to spread knowledge to students about the horrors of communism.

In the article, two school librarians write that informing students about the crimes of communism would be wrong as it would risk making the pupils' views more right-wing. - The Local, Sweden

Cuz: "You cant because its just a made-up-out-of-the-blue accusations against scandinavians."

False accusations are easy to show false, particularly when there are specific claims made. Are 80% of divorces in Denmark started by the wife? Are there programs crafted specifically for the purpose of "gender leveling" or what ever you want to call it?

It's impossible to disprove the anonymous quotes, certainly, but no one's saying you need to. What we're saying is, if you're going to argue about facts, argue with facts.

Living in Norway, I guess I haven't really seen any evidence of this here. I think the things that are stated in the article, about women expecting the man to act like a woman in the emotional department and then giving up on the man when he does so, is a problem all over the place.

When a man starts becoming more and more like a woman's female friends, she will more often find other more masculine more attractive and dump the "refined" boyfriend for the new apparent alpha male. Rinse and repeat.

Men have to find a tough balance between taking the time to listen and be sensitive, with acting manly and masculine. Women aren't really expected to be anything other than feminine. At least not by men. Maybe by feminists, but not by men.

George is right, I'm sure. It's a problem all over. And no, no woman really wants to be married to her female friends. It *sounds* good though, and the culture (certainly in the US) insists that our True Love is our Soul Mate and will fulfill all of our emotional needs.

Fact is that we women need men *and* girl friends. No one person is the end-all of personal fulfillment for another person.

But... fellas... I have to think that when you want a feminine female who acts really "girly" that you pretty much get what you asked for and it's not really fair to blame women for that. A whole lot of them don't act at all the way women are portrayed by some people here.

There are women who, time after time, pick men who are abusive. If you're picking women who are abusive, maybe you should pick a different type of woman.

Anyone actually ever talk to a real Viking? Ask them how they liked it? Maybe the reality didn't live up to the mythology. It isn't always possible to be on the fun end of the sword - someone always ends up on the un-fun end.

Maybe Scandinavian women in the goodle days liked Vikings more than the Vikings actually liked being Vikings.

It seems that Scandinavian men have much less of a problem with the way they are these days that American men, or particularly American women, have with it.

"Viking" is actually a verb, not a noun. Generally trouble makers were sent out a viking (or whatever the heck construction would be accurate) or those trying to make their fortunes would go. A whole lot of "vikings" were actually traders rather than raiders. But the raiders were feared from Britain to Constantinople.

Norse society was rather egalitarian, even way back, with the gathering called the Althing (or however the heck that is spelt) and a form of democracy before the rest of Europe got a clue.

The sword, or ax, was important but most people were farmers, just like in any culture where people need to eat, which last I checked was all of them.

Did they *like* living that way? When the boats came home with the plunder I'm sure they did, but even after there was no need at all the Scandinavian countries produced far more than their share of famous explorers and adventurers who were at that time clearly doing it just because they could.

I can't see the Christianization of Scandinavia as a bad thing but it wasn't easy. The "white Christ" was an insult and He was denegrated as a weakling and a coward. Red was the color of strength. The conversion from one religion to the other wasn't easy or quick.

Fred fry: Sweden is concealing crimes? Open your eyes god damnit, u livin in the biggest artrocity of all time. Its actually funny that you trying to put sweden in a bad name when you are from that "democratic" country.

Cuz "Fred fry: Sweden is concealing crimes? Open your eyes god damnit, u livin in the biggest artrocity of all time. Its actually funny that you trying to put sweden in a bad name when you are from that "democratic" country."

Yes, that's what you and the other 'progressives' would like everyone to think. Anyway, read your own news. The whole point is that bad actors in the national stage (like Russia at the moment) get away with what they are doing, because of other countries that act as enablers. Clearly you didn't read my posts.

--------------------------This information gap has roots that date back many years, according to Anders Hjemdahl.

"There were strategic reasons. For example, I think the Social Democrats only won one absolute majority in the post-war years. Therefore they had to rely on the support of smaller parties, one of which was the communist party.

"Another reason is that a large majority of Swedish journalists are left-wingers, many of them quite far left," he said. - The Local, Sweden--------------------------

Communism is just a form of socialism. The US would have to nuke half the planet to get anywhere near the damage that communism has caused...

Taking a break from Cuz:@Synovavike: verb:I vike we vikeyou vike you vikehe/she vikes they vikenoun:examples: He was told to take a long vike of a short pier.I'm ok; you're ok -- I just don't vike you.

Fred Fry: Im very happy for your reputation that Fred Fry isnt your real name because flashing your real name with that false interpretation on the subject history is embarassing:I see that you dont read my posts, but Ill make it easy.America, that will say - your country have killed (indirectly) by supporting all kinds of dictators and other scum of earth more people than communism.

I see that you have been brainwashed that communism is the dumbest thing in the world.You are just sheeps doing whatever the media tells you to.They created the fear they put in some you people over there and the result is this overacted tension and fear for people from other countries, fear for politics you have no clue what they are about etc.Sorry man but you cannot judge the world just by viewing Fox news.

Communism it self isnt bad its the combination with dumb dicatator etc that made it a bad rep. you see.

Communism it self isnt bad its the combination with dumb dicatator etc that made it a bad rep. you see.

When I was doing my MBA in Finland, another communism defender tried to explain that it was people who screwed up communism. Maybe that's why they are so big on killing anyone and everyone who didn't follow the party line. (we'll just forget about all the true believers they offed as well.)

As for being brainwashed, I spent years living in Europe. he group think there is ten times worse than over here where 300 million Americans have 300 million opinions. the planet would be a much nicer place if Europe to a stand on something, anything, other than hating America......

synova, in regards to your post way up there, historically, public bathrooms have been labeled "men" and "women". All womens' bathrooms have toilets, as they use them for numbers 1 and 2. It is a best compromise for the female anatomy, considering where and how the female form expels waste.

Men, on the other hand, have public restrooms with urinals, for number 1, and toilets, mainly for number 2, but are often times used for when the urinals are full. Why do men use urinals? For speed and convenience. And because we can. They also use much less water per flush.

If women are concerned about guys with lousy aim, as everyone is to be frank, I suggest they leave the restrooms separate, and the women won't have to deal with it. All men have to do is back up another step. There is an old saying that holds true. "No matter how many times you shake the peg, the last drop always goes down your leg." If I'm lyin', I'm dyin'.Ask anyone with a prostate gland. Even those men who squat to pee.

It is my personal belief, the folks in Sweden are mixing up "equal" with "same".

A bulldog can whip a skunk. But is the smell worth it?

Oh, and cuzzy poo, please don't delete any of your posts. Let it all hang out. The more interesting things you have to say, as far as others are concerned, may well be contained in the deleted comments.The feminists in Sweden can only make you a *ussy if you let them.

@br546: There is an old saying that holds true. "No matter how many times you shake the peg, the last drop always goes down your leg." If I'm lyin', I'm dyin'.Ask anyone with a prostate gland. Even those men who squat to pee.

Another common misconception women don't understand (and have no way to understand) about the way men expel waste (via number 1) is that there is not one stream, there are two, and they occasionally (frustratingly and embarrassingly) go in different directions covering a square area that is larger than the target. This is why so many men, while attempting to harness the dueling dragons, look like someone playing the flute.

"When I was doing my MBA in Finland, another communism defender tried to explain that it was people who screwed up communism. Maybe that's why they are so big on killing anyone and everyone who didn't follow the party line. (we'll just forget about all the true believers they offed as well.)"

If you actually read what communism is about and exclude what people in the history turned it into.Who are you to say that USA is more open? Your country supress people, its turning into a straight police-state. I wonder why there are so many cult starting in the USA and why so many tend to give up their mind and follow the leader.. give up their belongings and belief just because a charismatic leader tell them to.They seem to be dependent of someone, isnt it Fox propaganda its Jim jones or Koresh.

@jay: "You can shake and you can dance, but the last three drops go down your pants." --Seneca the Elder

@br549: Women worried about men with lousy aim? There's a really cool laser-sight that you can strap onto an automatic that can be readily adapted for a gentleman's schwanz. It costs a bit (and I heartily recommend avoiding the use of bolts or epoxies), but it helped me to no end! Now when I write my name in the snow, I can even dot the i without too much discomfort. I'm even giving some thought to buying a Zeiss spotting scope for those hard-to-reach targets. But, damn!, is it heavy!

@cuz: "Your country supress people, its turning into a straight police-state."

Yup. And for the past 75 years, the United States of Fascist Repression has been the #1 Country-of-Choice for Immigration. Everybody and their sister wants to get into this hideous wasteland of Fascist Repression. Come and see the violence inherent in the system! Help, help! I'm being repressed!

Kevin: Are you flegmatic? To the very core communism isnt what people have turned it into..ohh the red are gonna get ya, exactly like cannabis are gonna kill ya..gee I really like your constant fear of things, wasnt it communism who produced homosexuals?

"McCarthy and Undersecretary of State John Puerifory claimed that there was a "homosexual underground" that was abetting the "communist conspiracy." Numerous reports of the "pervert peril"-so called by the media-were filed in the spring of 1950. In June of 1950, the Senate ordered a full-scale investigation of the claims. Many business owners and bureaucrats were so afraid of being accused of protecting subversives, they began to quickly dismiss homosexual workers. From 1947-1950, dismissals of homosexuals averaged about five per month in civilian government jobs. In the April-December 1950 period, more than sixty per month were fired. "