There are times when it might be appropriate to have a less than lethal means of dealing with a situation where your advisary does not present a deadly force threat. I carry an ASP Street Defender which is about the size of a kubotan and serves the same purpose of acting as a keyring. Just interested in others thoughts on this matter.

May 8th, 2010, 10:36 PM

searcher 45

Do not carry OC, but have thought it to be a good thing to add to my EDC.

May 8th, 2010, 11:17 PM

glockman10mm

I started a thread on this sometime ago. I believe that it only makes since to have a lethal force option. Don't be suprised by the people who
thinks if they have a gun it's all they need.

May 9th, 2010, 12:11 AM

MN2Go

Here in Minnesota I'd have to employ the pepper before I'd use my firearm. To draw does not mean I'd have to pull the trigger.

I'm not going to play with pepper sprays.

May 9th, 2010, 12:32 AM

moggie6

I carry pepper spray when I carry. First if the situation indicates a non-lethal force situation it's a great asset to have. I know when I served papers I had on numerous times presented the pepper spray and people's attitude changed. There are times when you can't pull your gun on someone. We call it menacing where I live and it's illegal.

Since I live in the great state of New York we can't have tazers. I purchased the Kimber Life Act JPX as an alternative. People thought it was a tazer when I pulled it out. I also added a cheap airsoft laser to it to help with the psychological effect.

The other great option of having some sort of pepper spray is how it displays an escalation of force in your favor. Someone confronts you and threatens physical violence. You produce the pepper spray (which ever device you use) and retreat while telling the individual to stay back and giving loud clear verbal warnings. The subject then produces a weapon. You drop the pepper spray and you draw your handgun. This may be used as evidence to support you were following an escalation of force in a defensive scenario.

Now with that said pepper spray is like anything else out there. It can be turned against you. I highly recommend getting sprayed in the face with the pepper spray you will be carrying with you. Knowing what it is like and how you will react is a great idea. There are different forms of pepper spray as well as different concentrations. The pain you inflict on yourself is a small price to pay then to have someone grapple away your pepper spray and then take your primary weapon while your rubbing your eyes.

Just my long .02 cents.

May 9th, 2010, 12:41 AM

Bark'n

Yep, my wife, our daughter, son-in-law and myself all carry small key chain canisters of Fox Labs OC spray. My last visit with my mother I left her a 2 oz. canister for her as well. She liked the bigger can as she'd be less likely to fumble with compared to the tiny key chain canister.

I also have a 2 oz. can of Fox Labs OC mounted on the outside of my BOB and I carry another 2 oz. can of Fox Labs OC on my duty belt for the swat team.

My mom carries it in her hand when going to and from the car, then it goes in her purse when she's in the car. At home, she keeps it on the table next to her favorite chair and it goes on the nightstand in her bedroom when she goes to bed.

May 9th, 2010, 12:45 AM

can2boy

1 Attachment(s)

it's always nice to have options.... for me it's the kimber lifeact.

May 9th, 2010, 12:59 AM

glockman10mm

Quote:

Originally Posted by Old School

There are times when it might be appropriate to have a less than lethal means of dealing with a situation where your advisary does not present a deadly force threat. I carry an ASP Street Defender which is about the size of a kubotan and serves the same purpose of acting as a keyring. Just interested in others thoughts on this matter.

I dont know if you are aware of this or not, but a kubotan is not an impact weapon, but used for PPCT, PRESSURE POINT CONTROL TECHNIQUES. It is only effective against passive resistance where the subject is not really trying to assault you, and requires you to be in physical contact with the person. I see many people carrying this unaware of what it is really used for. If I were you, I would carry pepper.

May 9th, 2010, 04:03 AM

BanditJack

I used to carry pepper. Pretty useless here in Michigan, you can only carry 2% OC spray. After I heard about some of the different cities having different ordinances regarding it, I stopped. I rely on my closed knives now if I want to be less-lethal.

After I stopped carrying it, I sprayed myself with it to see the effects. Nothing... until I forgot it was on my hands, and went to the bathroom. Resulted in 45 minutes of awkward crotch grabbing.

May 9th, 2010, 08:01 AM

Old School

Glockman10mm the ASP Street Defender is pepper spray. The canister is made of aluminum and looks like a kubotan and can carry your keys in the same manner and if you are trained can be used for PPCT but it's main purpose is to dispense pepper spray.

Bark'n be careful of the small key chain dispensers as they tend to lose propellent rather quickly and have a very small amount of the actual product in them. I would recommend no smaller than the .68 oz MK IX dispensers. They have enough product to do the job and maintain propellent life.

BanditJack the closed palmed knife is fine if you are trained in closed quarters defensive tactics. I am getting older and like to keep distance if at all possible.

The C-2 Taser is another use of force option I now employ for that purpose. The carry case is no large than an eyeglass case and is very light weight and clips to your belt. My home state of Florida is not as repressive as some of the other more liberal states when it comes to law abiding citizens protecting themselves.

Thank you all for your replys.

May 9th, 2010, 08:24 AM

goldshellback

I kinda agree with banditJack, if you can't use the 'good stuff', then stick with hollow-points.

I carried OC spray on duty and that was about it. The only thing I got from it was some really entertaining ND and after-cert. qual stories.

OC has it's place and can be extreemly useful..........I do not carry any but I will have some for my girls when thier 'ready' to carry and use it.

Until my 'bat utility-belt' becomes the 'in-thing' I try to minimize what I have on me.

May 9th, 2010, 09:37 AM

mercop

There is no more widely recommended, sold, or carried SD option than OC. That said you would think that you would be able to find stories of people using it for OC but try googling it. During my career I never handled a case where OC was used defensively, but had several cases where it was used offensively as a robbery tool. Do yourself a favor and learn to use your hands and then a Kubaton / Pen / Flashlight and forget the Karate in a can.

Let’s look at number one, OC to be effective during a spontaneous attack situation has got to be pre-deployed. That means that it is not at the bottom of a pocket or purse. This takes constant effort and mindset to have it ready in the hand whenever in a danger area (anywhere outside the home).

Number two, use of OC without proper mindset can lead to even more violence, let me explain. Being light skinned and blue eyed OC tears me up. I have been sprayed with it in the line of duty dozens of times. Each and every time it made my eyes slam shut and my face burn. What it never did was take me out of the fight. If anything it make me fight harder. I just had to fight by touch. As we see time and time again in pistol classes people have a very bad tendency to stand still while shooting, this is even more so when deploying OC. What will your wife be able to do if the guy gets his hands on her?

Besides state and local laws there are lots of issues with the carry of OC. The first is that in today’s security climate they may be prohibited in courthouses, some forms of transportations and academic institutions. So depending on life style and environment you many not be allowed to carry your OC. Of course this changes for everyone, what percentage of your life will you need to leave your primary force option at home or in your vehicle? Then when you do carry it, will you have the presence of mind to pre-deploy it?

OC is good for two things, bridging and transitioning. Bridging is using a tool to move to remove yourself to a safe location or at least to a safer one. Transitioning is using a tool to get you to another tool. OC can be very effective when backed up by a firearm and quite possible save you from having to shoot someone. In police use of force OC is usually very low on the list right after verbal persuasion. Don’t use it as your primary force option. A guide for citizen use of force should look something like this-

Verbal commands

Impact tools (flashlights, pens, kubatons, stylus)

OC

Firearms/Edged Weapons

The impact tools that are mentioned can be carried in even the most prohibitive environments and can allow you to bridge or transition with little training as long as the mindset is correct. OC, firearms and knives can be added depending on lifestyle and environments. - George

May 9th, 2010, 11:36 AM

glockman10mm

Quote:

Originally Posted by Old School

Glockman10mm the ASP Street Defender is pepper spray. The canister is made of aluminum and looks like a kubotan and can carry your keys in the same manner and if you are trained can be used for PPCT but it's main purpose is to dispense pepper spray.

Bark'n be careful of the small key chain dispensers as they tend to lose propellent rather quickly and have a very small amount of the actual product in them. I would recommend no smaller than the .68 oz MK IX dispensers. They have enough product to do the job and maintain propellent life.

BanditJack the closed palmed knife is fine if you are trained in closed quarters defensive tactics. I am getting older and like to keep distance if at all possible.

The C-2 Taser is another use of force option I now employ for that purpose. The carry case is no large than an eyeglass case and is very light weight and clips to your belt. My home state of Florida is not as repressive as some of the other more liberal states when it comes to law abiding citizens protecting themselves.

Thank you all for your replys.

Ok, wow, sorry about that. Learn something new everyday!

May 9th, 2010, 12:03 PM

glockman10mm

mercop, I read your post and agree with you on all points with a few addendums. OC on my agencys force continuim is ranked with impact weapons. When wearing full duty gear I aways keep my OC on the weakside[left] and sidearm on my right, so that I can keep both hands on those tools when dealing with people so that I can immediatly go for which the threat calls for. With a little situational awareness exercises, civillians can do the same thing in a different carry method. I have employed OC many times, and have always had good results, although there are some people it does have the desired effect on. There are times when the use of the firearm may be warranted, but is not practical or safe due to the envioroment, such as a park full of kids, and the attacker is an overly aggressive dog, or a parking lot dispute where someone wants to get physical, or is menancing in nature. The use of OC, in my opinion, is a safer option due to the fact it does not require physical contact, or disparity of force issues. An untrained person with an impact weapon who strike someone in the head and causes a brain injury or death, may have just as well shot someone. If deadly force was not necessary as described in one of the scenarios above[and there are many more] you are in trouble. Now of course is the attacker is on you so quickly that you could not deploy OC, chances are that you would not have had time to deploy anything. That is where hand to hand training is important. You will fight like you train. With a little thought into your personal defense needs, a civillian can effectively put together selection of force options and be ready for defense situations with the confidence that they can deal with it.

May 9th, 2010, 12:12 PM

bruce272

Won't leave home without it.

Not carrying pepper spray, is like not carrying.

The three thing I take when I leave home (in no particular order) .45, knife, spare mag or two and wallet. (yeah, I know that makes four, but who's counting.