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This - "You kill the sport in two way: first people don't like so much bolt and practically all sport climber who climb 5.11 in a gym have problem in 5.7 outside, if it is not an accident. At each accident, the popularity of the sport diminish", is the kind of rhetoric that takes away credibility from you and your arguments.

The popularity of climbing is on the decline? Not so if you take all kinds of climbing into consideration!

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"You have to decide to do a flag, where you can broke your vertebrae or a barn door depending of your pro" - the poster formerly known as Champ

I have pondered this for a couple years now and I think it is similar to a preacher in a railroad camp during the Great Expansion. He is completely fanatic in his convictions and truly believes his long winded preaching might save some souls.

I have pondered this for a couple years now and I think it is similar to a preacher in a railroad camp during the Great Expansion. He is completely fanatic in his convictions and truly believes his long winded preaching might save some souls.

(I may have been watching to much Hell on Wheels lately).

I wish he would go away because every thread now turns into the same bullshit and that is all it is! I have never met anyone so clueless.

Number 1 reason to sport climb or boulder and never trad climb.No LL to deal with!

I understand and accept your point of view on this, even though I disagree with you.

To wit: you have not taken in to account a key tenant of modern pedagogy. Everyone has a different learning style. What works for you may not work for me.

Some need to learn basic movement first.

Some are nervous types and need to learn to place pro first.

Some are nervous types and will never use any pro but a bolt.

Some are weak and need to get stronger before anything else happens.

Some have Outdoor Attention Deficit Disorder and need to experience new stuff regularly to keep learning.

Some need to find inspiration, and therefore need to try everything out first to find their niche.

Some learn by doing, some by hearing, some by reading, others by imagining.

There is no universal prescription. You cannot control the learning of others. This is especially true of climbers, who are a rebellious sort.

As many people said a sequence of learning from boulder to sport and to trad...I am a little bit confuse. Sport climber are very institutionel in there learning patern.

I think in consideration what you said and it is what I called working on our weakness. Even dgoguen will found bizarre to see at the north end practice people leading on aid to gain confidence in there pro with one aider at a time. Dgoguen use two set of aider as a leader and it is a good technique.

As I climbed with one guy, he place his life two or three time in danger of a ground fall or decking on a ledge and falling after...and he didn't understand it because he didn't have the knowledge...but he follow the rigid learning process of sport climbing.

In your list, You don't talk about how a person gain reflex. maybe you know about subliminal messages. It is when you are listening or doying some things a number of time, after a while, you do that thing automatically. It is one problem actually. As the climber learn to climb on bolt, he place his body in some particular position that he thing will be good. He follow some set of rules that work perfectly in sport route. He have so many reflex that when he go to a trad route an a new environment...he risk his life without knowing it.

Some one said that on cam the fall is more dangerous...look at your beginer in sport who trad and you will understand that they make many dangerous mistake and when they realizer those mistake...they need a bolt. The true reason it is that they learned different reflex and those sport climbing reflex are not adapted to some trad situation.

LL, since you do not sport-climb, what the heck do you know about "the rigid learning process of sport climbing."?

In fact, I do not believe there is or ought to be one. As Pete pointed out, everyone learns the same skill set in a different way. Does training improve sport climbing? For sure it does. Does it improve trad climbing? Sure it does. Do not confuse training with some rigid learning process.

As for "He have so many reflex that when he go to a trad route an a new environment...he risk his life without knowing it.", have you considered it is just plain bad moves sport or trad? If possible, please give examples of good moves one would do on a sport route that becomes life threatening in trad. So many of us want to climb like Edlinger - an exquisite technical climber. Should we climb less like Edlinger and more like you to be "safe"? Perhaps you should post up a video of your fine trad techniques. Maybe how you climb the crux of Diedre, seeing how you criticized the technique of a leader to no end based on a single still photo.

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"You have to decide to do a flag, where you can broke your vertebrae or a barn door depending of your pro" - the poster formerly known as Champ

I believe the most challenging aspect of trad climbing for most sport climbers is figuring out how to get their several gallon jugs of water up a multi-pitch climb. Therefore, sport climbers should probably first learn to aid climb.

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Have a quiche, now, or maybe a tort. You deserve it!-bristolpipe

I like to keep things simple, even if it's faaaken painful and miserable.-Stoney Middleton

This is grain, which any fool can eat, but for which the Lord intended a more divine means of consumption.-Friar Tuck

I believe the most challenging aspect of trad climbing for most sport climbers is figuring out how to get their several gallon jugs of water up a multi-pitch climb. Therefore, sport climbers should probably first learn to aid climb.

A+ even if I describe a situation where the climber was lucky to be in birds nest as all pro is so easily safe that a stopper can hold body weight even in the worst placement.

I agree that some one who go into a real A-1 or A-2 situation can learn a lot on safety in aid. Learning the basic from using sling and biner to the most recent technique of one aider at a time

So many of us want to climb like Edlinger - an exquisite technical climber. Should we climb less like Edlinger and more like you to be "safe"? Perhaps you should post up a video of your fine trad techniques.

Patrick Edlinger, grimper, was my book before I go to bed. The book is so use, that I have to fix it to save it. His book was wrote by two post graduate teacher in France and he discuss all dimension of climbing. Particularly the psychological aspect.

he said: the only think that a beginner can imitate from and expert climber, it is to chalk his hand in the chalk bag (la seule chose que le debutant puisse mimer correctement est le trempage des doigts dans le sac a magnesie)

To progress he explain that the climber have to know how to be safe and to know how to master his emotion...after he will learn the economy of energy by learning a better technique.

To control your emotion, a bolt can be very safe. You are controlling one emotion: clipping the bolt before you fall. In trad, you have to control many other emotion and the presence of your partner is one of them. As a leader I have to evaluate my partner and bring it at a higher level or follow a better leader than me. Base, marc Chauvin, Sa, Joe Cote...are stongly better leader than me. They know all what I am writing, but maybe they can't put words on it to explain it. and maybe they will loose the attention of the people because some guy don't try to understand what is good for them and what it is not, but just challenge other people who bring new argument (control emotion with heuristical clue, short cut of the brain etc is new). A layback is still a layback. But one can place his feet at a place so there feet will slip first and an other as his hand will slip first. This will make all the difference between hurting your back and hurting your feet in a fall. If you don't understand my example, maybe it is better to ask question to understand than to criticize someone who try to put words on some thing less evident than a bolt to solve all the problem.

LL, you can bet your Thanksgiving turkey (tho I know it is not the same day in Canada) that I, along with many on this forum, understand the basis of your point, and all that about how to do a layback "correctly". It is the wild extrapolation and over generalization that follows that is the problem for us. You have the correct starting point. But most of the time you end up at the wrong place and conclusion via a torturous journey.

How about that video how you think the crux of Diedre ought to be climbed? Or how you climb a layback. Teach us!

By the way, JBrochu is most likely poking fun youngish sport climbers who tend to lug too much water for a short day at Rumney, up the steep trails and down again. Sorry you missed the joke or at least what I think is a joke.

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"You have to decide to do a flag, where you can broke your vertebrae or a barn door depending of your pro" - the poster formerly known as Champ

How about that video how you think the crux of Diedre ought to be climbed? Or how you climb a layback. Teach us! .

To be challenge to show who his the best is not really climbing, in my opinion, what ever ethic you use. I can say which ethic I prefer and explain why so many accident happen in trad situation because people climb trad route with sport ethic.

Even if the last time I had real problem to do diedra crux, I still thinking that it is a 5.9, tricky faive nine that I did on sight without cam.

How about that video how you think the crux of Diedre ought to be climbed? Or how you climb a layback. Teach us! .

To be challenge to show who his the best is not really climbing, in my opinion, what ever ethic you use. I can say which ethic I prefer and explain why so many accident happen in trad situation because people climb trad route with sport ethic.

Even if the last time I had real problem to do diedra crux, I still thinking that it is a 5.9, tricky faive nine that I did on sight without cam.

Have you considered the reason why "so many accident happen in trad situation" is because so many "trad" climbers actually suck at climbing?

And, if "show who is the best is not really climbing…" why did you have to tell us you did it "on sight without cam??" Sounds to me like someone trying to show how he's "the best," (or at least soooo much better than the rest of us punters.

gobble, gobble;

ed e

ps i know i shouldn't have responded, but i'm still high on a turkey...

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pragmatic: (adj) dealing with the problems that exist in a specific situation in a reasonable and logical way instead of depending on ideas and theories.

LL, it is unproductive to critique others without telling us the "correct" way to do something you claim to know well.I agree with you Diedre did not feel .10 when I did it many years ago. Oh, I have no idea what gear I placed. Too long ago!

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"You have to decide to do a flag, where you can broke your vertebrae or a barn door depending of your pro" - the poster formerly known as Champ

Not sure about how to lead it but the correct way to climb the crux of of Didre on 2nd is to fall at the manky pin. you will then swing right through the tricky move to the good holds and it will be a piece of cake

As I've told you before LL, if ethics (which is highly subjective) is your bag (TRULY), then drop your rope and start hard soloing.Put your ass out where your mouth is.Otherwise, STFU.No. Really. It's the right thing to do.