Vengeance change makes the current power of SS already heavily nerfs, between both nerfs SS would probably only be worth about half as much as it is in live in any given scenario. An SS nerf was always likely, but they get it through vengeance. Would be surprised if it actually sticks.

And every RPPM proc dead with it so no synergy anymore with gear, gems, enchants, very exciting.

Is it justifiable that GC will be broken vs a bunch of melee adds and completely useless if you're not getting hit or tanking a caster?
Wouldn't it be better where it could be very strong with adds and not saying strong, but at least present while you're doing your own thing with your attacks? <-- cause that way (the way that makes sense) was the previous way not the new one, also, another nerf to haste here.

Yup, everyone who didn't have haste to begin with.. but had crit.. and now they have riposte.

I think you mean an immense amount of overhealing, that was always 3rd to Seal of Insight and Sacred Shield anyway.

I thought the nerf for this was capped vengeance? why cap vengeance and nerf it 30%?

Also why nerf it for Ret when it needed a buff for Ret, that one it's just plain unjustifiable.

Apparently I missed another round of changes to vengeance and the way we're granted it. Have to come back to this.

A nerf for ret is stupid. It was 25k bubble every 4.5 seconds or so. 75k of bubbles that you have to maintain a buff and only active on one target vs an instant fol with no buff maintenance and heals for 60% more on other players. It's like blizzard wanted SH to be the only possible choice for ret.

Originally Posted by Choice

Vengeance change makes the current power of SS already heavily nerfs, between both nerfs SS would probably only be worth about half as much as it is in live in any given scenario. An SS nerf was always likely, but they get it through vengeance. Would be surprised if it actually sticks.

Nerfing it for ret was completely unnecessary. We don't have vengeance as ret so doesn't even absorb much. This will force all rets take Selfless Healer, as if they didn't already. Didn't Blizz say that they didn't want mandatory glyphs or talents for certain specs? Even with normal mode gear my haste is already so high that I rarely have to cast Judgement because there is almost always a higher prio spell available.

That's only "For Say" not really ment to go by that line. There is and Always will be cookie cutter build no other choice since 6-7 years now they have repeated that line many times and always phailed to get it right.

As with all the nerfs to paladins thus far, my Opinion and I've said it many times. Its time for a shift of power again as we see every xpac; What classes sucked will now be awsome and What classes were awsome its time to suck.

With the SS nerf, Glyph nerfs (Nothing new to make up for it), skill nerfs Prot and Holy will fall from the top of the tree to middle or ground level of the tree for SoO (We held the Crown for 3 tiers in MoP )
With the buffs in the last 2 patches Ret will rise from the middle of the tree to the top of tree ( Have fun while you can )

With the buffs in the last 2 patches Ret will rise from the middle of the tree to the top of tree ( Have fun while you can )

From the middle of the tree? I don't play ret myself, but Ret is far from the middle of the tree. If you take the best dps spec from each class bases on the logs from world of logs this is what you get:

Don't take the rank below as an exact fact, it only gives an decent hint of how good or bad different classes are doing

Has there been any testing/clarification on what exactly the 30% is? Are we talking 30% off of the baseline shield, at which point the nerf would be pretty harmless? Or 30% off of the scaling, which would be pretty painful for Prot survival?

Originally Posted by Malthanis

We'll all be appropriately shocked/amazed when Nairobi actually gets an avatar, but until then, let's try to not derail the thread heckling him about it.

Originally Posted by Blizzard Entertainment

If it was that easy don't you think we would have figured that out? (Source)

Has there been any testing/clarification on what exactly the 30% is? Are we talking 30% off of the baseline shield, at which point the nerf would be pretty harmless? Or 30% off of the scaling, which would be pretty painful for Prot survival?

To be honest, even if it is a flat 30% nerf with scaling and all, I am not too concerned, it still serves it purpose.

Volun-told - A supposedly optional event, award, assignment, or activity in which a person (or persons) are required to attend either by persons-in-charge nominating them or their peers expecting them to be there. The individual often has no say in the matter, and non-attendance in frowned upon.I am so tired of seeing terrible people, being admired, for being terrible people.

Has there been any testing/clarification on what exactly the 30% is? Are we talking 30% off of the baseline shield, at which point the nerf would be pretty harmless? Or 30% off of the scaling, which would be pretty painful for Prot survival?

I think a 30 % "nerf" of the baseline shield wouldn't be noticable at all. Even if they reduce the vengeance-buffed shield by 30 % it wouldn't be too hard (but of course noticable). I checked my last logs and sacred-shield counted for 25-30 % healing done on me. So a 30 % nerf of that wouldn't be too harsh. Especially when I got overhealed by 55 % of all heals (and my own seal of insight overhealed me by 50-70 %).

10m speaking here, where dmg-done on tanks is.....yeah you know^^ I could imagine for 25m this is a painful nerf.

@Nairobi, funny thing: Was also out for the weekend and then come back to see this^^

I think a 30 % "nerf" of the baseline shield wouldn't be noticable at all. Even if they reduce the vengeance-buffed shield by 30 % it wouldn't be too hard (but of course noticable). I checked my last logs and sacred-shield counted for 25-30 % healing done on me. So a 30 % nerf of that wouldn't be too harsh. Especially when I got overhealed by 55 % of all heals (and my own seal of insight overhealed me by 50-70 %).

10m speaking here, where dmg-done on tanks is.....yeah you know^^ I could imagine for 25m this is a painful nerf.

@Nairobi, funny thing: Was also out for the weekend and then come back to see this^^

Yeah it won't really be tangible in low-V situations, but I'm looking at all of the high-add/high-V situations where it really earns its keep, currently.

Like, on HC DA, at the start I can currently 1) cap V, 2) not suffer DR on V from extra adds, and 3) get SS ticks of ~450-600k rolling.

Now, yes, that is OP as hell, but we also build the strat around it. In 5.4, we're going to see:
1) Vcap potentially dropped to 30% of what it is now, so ~225k instead of ~750k
2) V DRing with amount of adds (details yet unknown, but sounds as though anything above n=2 will give progressively less V).
and 3) SS reduced by 30%

If it was JUST #1, the SS ticks would be ~250k tops. If it was JUST #2, we'd see ticks ~300-500k max, likely. If it was just #3, we'd see ticks ~200-420k.

But adding them all together means (in this scenario) we'd be faced with ~180k SS ticks, which would pretty much gut the strategy, or at least make it far more prone to failure.

That's my big concern: the times that we NEED those big SS ticks are the times we'll see the most drastic reductions in their efficacy. Thinking also about running up V prior to HC LS transitions, final phase HC Horri, or HC Empress when it was relevant, etc. Since SS is relatively "tame" at low to moderate V, it won't show as effective when scanning overall healing/absorbs in Skada, compared to key situations.

I dunno, not panicking, just a bit confused/worried.

Originally Posted by Malthanis

We'll all be appropriately shocked/amazed when Nairobi actually gets an avatar, but until then, let's try to not derail the thread heckling him about it.

Originally Posted by Blizzard Entertainment

If it was that easy don't you think we would have figured that out? (Source)

I think a 30 % "nerf" of the baseline shield wouldn't be noticable at all. Even if they reduce the vengeance-buffed shield by 30 % it wouldn't be too hard (but of course noticable). I checked my last logs and sacred-shield counted for 25-30 % healing done on me. So a 30 % nerf of that wouldn't be too harsh. Especially when I got overhealed by 55 % of all heals (and my own seal of insight overhealed me by 50-70 %).

10m speaking here, where dmg-done on tanks is.....yeah you know^^ I could imagine for 25m this is a painful nerf.

@Nairobi, funny thing: Was also out for the weekend and then come back to see this^^

ask yourself a question: if it's a barely noticeable nerf to base absorb, why would they implement it in the first place?

I'm hinting at that it might not be only base absorb nerf.

Be wary of the ones who yell: "Off with the satire!", for trash is always displeased with the broom.

Okay. So now i actually found it. They nerf the shield with those 30%.
OP should have listed all the changes though.
The shield will be applied instantly, so if you get a hard hit, and it's not on cd you can shield yourself up with a nice big bubble right away(albeit 30% less than the current).
Overall still more damage taken, but seems like it can be used as an extra emergency-button with that change, on top of the normal usage.

Okay. So now i actually found it. They nerf the shield with those 30%.
OP should have listed all the changes though.
The shield will be applied instantly, so if you get a hard hit, and it's not on cd you can shield yourself up with a nice big bubble right away(albeit 30% less than the current).
Overall still more damage taken, but seems like it can be used as an extra emergency-button with that change, on top of the normal usage.

and how does this "change" make it even remotely competative with SH for Ret?

Be wary of the ones who yell: "Off with the satire!", for trash is always displeased with the broom.