No he didn't, he said something totally divorced from reality which you demean yourself by agreeing with. Seriously, did you even read it? A leap from mocking someone's nose size to declaring their entire race inferior is completely incoherent. He summed up my position very well in his snide response: he's being stupid.

hiamnotcool wrote:

There is no way to argue with your point without being too complicated because your argument is trying to make the issue confusing.

You're confused because you have no idea what the Hell you're talking about.

hiamnotcool wrote:

Anyone that is familiar with it aside from people who will go into hysterics and lie trying to cover up the fact that their might be ONE racist Korean person out there there ...

Given I said:

Fox, One Page Back wrote:

Plenty of South Koreans are racist...

your attempt to portray me in this fashion is blatantly foolish.

If I don't know what I'm talking about then the Korean people who explained the meaning of 코쟁이 to me had no idea what they were talking about. I have had it explained to me quite a few times btw, although I have actually never been called it.

I get that you think plenty of South Koreans are racist, but it doesn't change the fact that arguments like the one you are giving right now are always there whenever ANY South Korean person is accused of ANYTHING. There is always an excuse, or it is always canceled out by something someone in the west does. Scorpion called it, it can't be tucked under the rug anymore. These arguments maybe enough to help you sleep at night, but at the end of the day foreigners aren't buying them.

Anyway, are you ever going to explain why you aren't disgusted by a musician talking about murdering and torturing innocent civilians in a concert? It seems like a lot of posters on here want to talk about the people that are attacking PSY but they don't want to express their real feelings about those lyrics.

Oh the state of our generation, where the simple assertion that a war protester lobbing a physical insult at another group while protesting their totally blatant military atrocities is insufficient to qualify as racism is "radical sophistry," while a convoluted attempt to claim the song in question is racist because the singer was perhaps channeling the influence of North Korean propaganda constitutes reasoned argumentation.

geldedgoat wrote:

But it's clearly time to give up and move on.

Then give up and move on, because your vapid accusations of racism to dismiss otherwise legitimate criticism of atrocity is nothing of which I am begging to hear more, geldedgoat. If genuinely think he was seriously issuing some sort of racist call for violence, that's fine. Here's what I care about: the people whose torture and murders were being protested. Here is what I don't care about: the hurt feelings of middle class hedonists who are upset that they got called big noses and called on the murderous policy of their elected representatives.

Oh the state of our generation, where the simple assertion that a war protester lobbing a physical insult at another group while protesting their totally blatant military atrocities is insufficient to qualify as racism is "radical sophistry," while a convoluted attempt to claim the song in question is racist because the singer was perhaps channeling the influence of North Korean propaganda constitutes reasoned argumentation.

geldedgoat wrote:

But it's clearly time to give up and move on.

Then give up and move on, because your vapid accusations of racism to dismiss otherwise legitimate criticism of atrocity is nothing of which I am begging to hear more, geldedgoat. If genuinely think he was seriously issuing some sort of racist call for violence, that's fine. Here's what I care about: the people whose torture and murders were being protested. Here is what I don't care about: the hurt feelings of middle class hedonists who are upset that they got called big noses and called on the murderous policy of their elected representatives.

You said the word 코쟁이 wasn't racist. Nobody ever said protesting a war was racist. The argument was whether or not the word 코쟁이 is racist, which it obviously is. I'm not upset at being called a big nose, I'm just fascinated at how you can't come to terms with its underlying meaning. You seem unable to come to terms its racist implications, which I find odd.
If you don't like torture then you might think about condemning anyone who conducts or encourages it. PSY was encouraging it, he yelled that out in front of a bunch of enraged, impressionable youth. I will support people's right to protest, but he took it too far. He still had the right to say it, but what he said was disgusting. You seem unable to come to terms with that. I find that odd.
If you are looking for a middle class hedon, you might look at PSY, who grew up in a well off family in Gangnam and wasted his education in Boston. He's pretty much the definition of a spoiled brat. And here you find yourself defending a middle class hedon against a bunch of other middle class hedons.

So you have found in PSY, a "middle class hedon" who encourages torture and the murder of innocents and uses racial slurs. You might look for another victim to defend somewhere, man. I don't see his actions having a postitive impact anywhere.

I've been called it. Guess how "disgusted" I was. Seriously, you're all like whiny little girls, bemoaning the pettiest things.

hiamnotcool wrote:

I get that you think plenty of South Koreans are racist, but it doesn't change the fact that arguments like the one you are giving right now are always there whenever ANY South Korean person is accused of ANYTHING.

So what? I almost never come to the defense of South Korea on these boards, and I'm not doing so now either. This is about the ridiculous, hysterical attitude the common man has come to take over the most casual and petty of commentary about other groups. "코쟁이" is trivial. A calm, composed self-assured western reading those lyrics ought not even give it a second thought, and it genuinely disappoints me that so many here are hysterical over it. You know what I'm hysterical over? The same thing as the Psy singing that song: actual cases of torture and murder. You know what I could care less about? Him calling you a big nose. The two things aren't even remotely on the same scale.

hiamnotcool wrote:

Anyway, are you ever going to explain why you aren't disgusted by a musician talking about murdering and torturing innocent civilians in a concert?

I've already explained this: because he wasn't genuinely calling for people to be murdered and tortured. The fellow was an angry performer tapping into a totally legitimate national (perhaps even global) frustration regarding how the west -- American especially -- has comported itself, not a terrorist calling for actual killings. Hell, given the current state of his career, the far more legitimate accusation against him would be that he wasn't actually serious in his condemnation of that torture and those killings, but rather just trying to cash in on popular sentiment. It's complete buffoonery to try to paint him as some sort of instigator of mass murder, the kind of radically incorrect analysis that would be fine on Fox News, but has no place in ostensibly intelligent discussion.

hiamnotcool wrote:

It seems like a lot of posters on here want to talk about the people that are attacking PSY but they don't want to express their real feelings about those lyrics.

I expressed my feelings about the lyrics: I'm fine with them, because I'm not fool enough to take them in a completely literal fashion.

hiamnotcool wrote:

You said the word 코쟁이 wasn't racist.

It's not. You don't understand what racism is, which would be fine if you did not insist on shrieking like an angry chimpanzee in response to what you falsely perceived as such.

hiamnotcool wrote:

If you are looking for a middle class hedon, you might look at PSY

True! Good thing I'm not here defending Psy, right? The fellow was completely correct to criticize the American military, but that doesn't make him my hero. No, I'm not here to defend him, I'm here to attack you, and people like you. You geldedgoat, edward, that other fellow whose name I don't remember just now, you're all more or less the same thing: not an individual, but a phenomenon. A whiny, petty, incoherent, unvirtuous, hypocritical, obtuse phenomenon that is strangling western society. That's what I care about, not Psy.

More proof that you can't escape the dumb stuff of your past. Those protests after the two girls were killed were inflammatory and showed a stunning lack of self-awareness on the part of the protesters, given the very poor traffic fatality record in South Korea at the time (and probably still now, haven't checked)

Showing the actual photos of the crushed girls on main streets was nothing but a blatant attempt to whip up hysteria, something that it appears Psy was more than willing to jump into.

True! Good thing I'm not here defending Psy, right? The fellow was completely correct to criticize the American military, but that doesn't make him my hero. No, I'm not here to defend him, I'm here to attack you, and people like you. You geldedgoat, edward, that other fellow whose name I don't remember just now, you're all more or less the same thing: not an individual, but a phenomenon. A whiny, petty, incoherent, unvirtuous, hypocritical, obtuse phenomenon that is strangling western society. That's what I care about, not Psy.

You seem to hate the USA so much you are willing to overlook anything someone does as long as they are criticizing it. I'm glad you didn't get your feelings hurt when someone called you a racist name, but it is still racist. That was the main point I was arguing with you about, and the initial argument you gave was ripped apart by edward. Now you are just making this personal, and trying to make us sound like we are too sensitive about the whole thing. I would think if you were against torture as you say you are you would be one of the first people to step up and say his comments were out of line. It seems like maybe you really just have a problem with the USA in genearal, and not torture. Maybe some self reflection is called for.

What's up with the "obtuse phenomenon" haha, whhaaaat? You are definitely smarter than me man, that must be that college edumucation at work right there.

You seem to hate the USA so much you are willing to overlook anything someone does as long as they are criticizing it.

If it seems that way, it is because you are confused.

hiamnotcool wrote:

Now you are just making this personal, and trying to make us sound like we are too sensitive about the whole thing.

Sound too sensitive? You are whining like babies because an anti-war protester called the murderers he was criticizing big noses. That's so ridiculously beyond sensitive that I almost suspect it's all feigned.

hiamnotcool wrote:

I would think if you were against torture as you say you are you would be one of the first people to step up and say his comments were out of line.

If I was too stupid to differentiate between genuine calls to violene and rhetorical devices, I am sure I would. I seriously cannot get over the fact that your main argument relies on a personal inability to understand non-literal language.

Look, this is getting boring, and getting the average person to understand why you can use a group-specific insult without being racist is probably impossible.

For God's sake, there's more to racism than saying mean things about some group of people. "We ought to rule over you genetically inferior big noses," is racism. "Stop killing people, big noses!" is just angry frustration and lashing out. Seriously now, I posted the definition of racism in this thread. Angrily calling someone "big nose" in response to atrocities very clearly does not qualify. What's so difficult about that?

The definition you posted of racism is not the commonly held usage. Discriminating against anyone based on Ethnic/Racial lines, is viewed as racist - as are racial slurs.

So, yes, although some definitions of racism have to do with superiority, there are also uses that go beyond that - "equal, but separate", might be one example.

I thought having a big nose here was a good thing. I've been told Koreans think big nose = big johnson. Then, there's all the nose surgery Koreans have, people always telling me they like my nose, wishing their nose was like my nose, or how much they hate their small noses... they're obsessed with noses/are very superficial, in general. I'd never really even thought about people's noses before, apart from the J stereotype . They're obsessed with big eyes as well, to state the obvious. But, I find that all quite bizarre.

I mentioned this in a different thread, but I got called kojangee by a group of ajummas once, as they all giggled like school girls. I felt there was a negative, or mocking, connotation in that instance and gave them an earful for it.

I'm still confused... it's a, ahem, "racist" insult (the word "kojangee" itself), but Koreans are also envious of our noses and make it rain on surgeons who will style their noses to look like ours. I think, as others have said, it's obviously the Korean word itself that is derogatory. But, having a big nose is a good thing? That's an odd phenomenon, to use a facial feature as an insult... but one which a large percentage of the population is actually envious of and longing for themselves. Definitely some weird psychological factors at play on that one IMO.

Koreans will have to change their attitudes if they are to progress much further.

For the past 10-20 years they have been attempting cultural conquest abroad while pretending to actually respect their non-Korean audiences.

They want the worlds money and adulation, while concealing the fact that they view other races as aliens or vermin. The mask is beginning to slip however.

Quote:

These arguments maybe enough to help you sleep at night, but at the end of the day foreigners aren't buying them.

What is very telling is the stand-offishness of Koreans when faced with outsiders. You can see this really obviously in TV interviews and so on.

Girls generation was painful to watch. When getting off their tour bus you could see their total discomfort- almost disgust- at being surrounded by real live foreigners.

Also the cliche call to nationalism. At some point in interviews, korean stars always go on about "korea power" or say korean phrases and codewords that basically show they are in some sort of nationalistic cult that excludes all non-koreans.

These performers also never have any message for the world, never any substance. They're just about making profits, using any tactical spin that protects their bottom line.

At some point there must come a sea change in this country. It will only start to happen though when there is a large enough community of permanent foreign residents here able to stand up for themselves and force issues.

I think there's a lot of truth in what Nautilus says. There are apparent problems, cultural issues, etc. in this country. And, whether people want to address them or not, they are often blatant. Of course, other countries have similar problems, different problems, and everything in between, but this is a Korean forum, with people who are currently living in Korea, so the focus should be on that alone.

This is just a story, don't make too much out of it. But, I was on a bus after work today talking to a Singaporean Indian guy who has run his own textile business here for 35 years. Old guy, but he's been here 35 years, and not married to a Korean. It was about a ten minute conversation, but what he was saying was that, although Korea has made him pretty wealthy, and offered him a good living... dealing with Koreans in day to day business practices has made him into a complete cynic. It was a comical and strange conversation. He also praised English teachers and expressed disdain towards the way we're often portrayed here. I've met/known/know people in non-teaching positions here, and a lot of them feel the same way about the general culture in Korea towards foreigners. There's us and them, and that's usually just the way it is. Somewhat unfortunate circumstances.

Here's the problem. PSY did not say something that shocked anyone in Korea. Noone in the media came out and said, 'Psy dude, there are legitimate ways to express opposition to war, but what you said was disgusting." In Korea talking negatively about other ethnic groups is part of the culture. The young audience at his show (supposedly the 'progressive generation')gobbled it up, so much so that he performed it again at another concert. The young people here are conditioned by the Korean education system not to be shocked or disgusted at this. Korean history classes are basically propaganda exercises pitting Koreans against 'the other'. They fill their head with nonsense about 'one blood' and the 'crimes' committed against Korean by foreigners. The way black people are depicted in school texts (admittedly there has been an improvement over the past two years) is also troubling. When the students laugh and ridicule a colored person in a video there is no correction from the Korean teacher. Indeed, they occasionally smile or chuckle along. These attitudes are further reinforced in the home.

Then there is the depiction of Western English teachers in the media. Always the nose is exaggerated, and our crime rate is exaggerated beyond belief. Yet Koreans gobble it up. Why? Because they have been conditioned to instinctively believe negative things about non-Koreans. The Anti-English Spectrum crowd can spew their racism at foreigners and then get invited to government meetings to consider changes to the E2 visa. They stalk foreigners, but instead of the police charging them with harassment they receive an official police commendation. Most recently there was the MBC program, "The Real Truth about Relationships with Foreigners'. They phoned up Koreans asking them "if they have been the victim of a foreigner." No one in the Korean media, church groups, politics, university groups, or human rights organizations condemned the program. Silence. And don't get me started on foreigners who are dating Koreans but feel the need to conceal the relationship from family and friends for years.

This scandal surrounding PSY is about much more than one clown spewing racist hatred, and that all we need to do is focus on the individual. The truth is that racist attitudes are ingrained in Korean culture from top to bottom. They start in public school and carry on through to the grave. As I see it Korea has two choices. Remove the cancer at the heart of this culture, or return to the 'hermit kingdom' and simply block out the outside world. They can't have it both ways. If they want the international spotlite and respect, then fine. But don't expect the Western press to focus exclusively on bibimbap, hanbok and the four season's thing.

Here's the problem. PSY did not say something that shocked anyone in Korea. Noone in the media came out and said, 'Psy dude, there are legitimate ways to express opposition to war, but what you said was disgusting." In Korea talking negatively about other ethnic groups is part of the culture. The young audience at his show (supposedly the 'progressive generation')gobbled it up, so much so that he performed it again at another concert. The young people here are conditioned by the Korean education system not to be shocked or disgusted at this. Korean history classes are basically propaganda exercises pitting Koreans against 'the other'. They fill their head with nonsense about 'one blood' and the 'crimes' committed against Korean by foreigners. The way black people are depicted in school texts (admittedly there has been an improvement over the past two years) is also troubling. When the students laugh and ridicule a colored person in a video there is no correction from the Korean teacher. Indeed, they occasionally smile or chuckle along. These attitudes are further reinforced in the home.

Then there is the depiction of Western English teachers in the media. Always the nose is exaggerated, and our crime rate is exaggerated beyond belief. Yet Koreans gobble it up. Why? Because they have been conditioned to instinctively believe negative things about non-Koreans. The Anti-English Spectrum crowd can spew their racism at foreigners and then get invited to government meetings to consider changes to the E2 visa. They stalk foreigners, but instead of the police charging them with harassment they receive an official police commendation. Most recently there was the MBC program, "The Real Truth about Relationships with Foreigners'. They phoned up Koreans asking them "if they have been the victim of a foreigner." No one in the Korean media, church groups, politics, university groups, or human rights organizations condemned the program. Silence. And don't get me started on foreigners who are dating Koreans but feel the need to conceal the relationship from family and friends for years.

While things are better back home and there will be an uproar, I'd caution that "ingrained racist attitudes" can be quite prevalent. Ask black folks or Latinos or Asian-Americans about the subtly racist attitudes and media experiences they see.

As for why Koreans perceive that foreigners will be a danger, if you are from the UK or the US, you don't exactly have the best historical track record when it comes to other nations and non-Anglo people especially.

But I agree that this is symptomatic of some of the excesses. If it had just been about the soldiers, meh. But the lack of outrage over the women and children aspect of it is sickening. It's one of the basic principles of the rules of war and such. I do think that any Koreans are embarrassed by what he said, but their sympathy with him over the issues he was singing about it overrides that, which I don't think it should.