[Debate] Talismans

This applies across all different adaptations of Sailor Moon, so I am curious as to people's thoughts on the subject regardless of the source.

Is Venus' Love Whip and the Moon Sword (and I guess by extension Jupiter's Lightning Rod (and depending on the incarnation, Flower/Petal Belt), Mar's Jewel, and Mercury's Visor/Computer) a talisman in the manner of the Outers, or is it something other?

Luna Love

Pyramidal Crystal

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Subject: Re: [Debate] Talismans Wed May 18, 2016 3:36 pm

I think it's something other. They could be similar.

As far as I know, only the 90s anime made the talismans part of the outers bodies and made from their own powers.

In the manga, they were given to the outers by Queen Serenity for the sole purpose of alerting them to Sailor Saturn. They have other powers with other purposes but they aren't correspondent to their planetary powers.

I feel as if the inners things, aside from the Moon Sword as that belong to all the inners and the Princess, directly correspond to their powers and were made specifically for them and not for any other purpose than that.

I'd imagine if they were given talismens, those things would be rather awesome though.

east02west

Pyramidal Crystal

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Subject: Re: [Debate] Talismans Wed May 18, 2016 4:10 pm

The Moon Sword belongs specifically to Venus, but Crystal made it the case that it was shared by them all.

As to the talismans of the Outers, Crystal cites that they're an extension of their powers, so while given to them by Queen Serenity, I think that it suffices to say that they're a part of them. It might be the one explanation for why they didn't need henshin wands, and why they were able to summon their talismans at random.

Luna Love

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Subject: Re: [Debate] Talismans Wed May 18, 2016 4:15 pm

It was in the manga that it was USED by venus, not owned by her an in the manga Wink Chain Sword didn't always require an actual sword let alone that specific sword. It's never been hers, she was entrusted with it only as the leader of the inner Senshi to priest the princess but it belongs to them all and was given for that some purpose by Queen Serenity.

[size=49]I missed the part where called the talismens extensions of their powers, that wasn't in the manga. Which episode was that again? I'll have to watch it but it could easily share the same meaning as a sword being an extension of the arm.[/size]

[size=49]The talismans had specific purposes and the main was to warn of Sailor Saturn. They could have been made directly for them though [/size]

I have believed that the Inners get their talisman equivalents in Dream Arc of the manga. Mercury=Harp, Mars=Arrow, Jupiter=Leaves of Oak, and Venus=Love Whip (an upgrade from Love-Me Chain).

___________________________

east02west

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Subject: Re: [Debate] Talismans Wed May 18, 2016 11:38 pm

Right.

I mean theoretically all the Outer senshi are capable of wielding their talismans outside of their senshi forms, though it might not be practical to walk around with a sword, scythe, and garnet orb in hand... However, Neptune carrying around her hand mirror all the time is somewhat awkward and makes her come off extremely vain. Curiously it was yesterday episode of Crystal that made me realize that it's a mirror which doubles as a shield.

But I digress.

What to make of Venus' Love Chain/Whip? She seems to be the only Inner capable of things that the others aren't. She's still able to use Moon Power to disguise herself, which I have to admit is quite impressive. Still, I find her rather weak. Mars and Jupiter appear to be the strongest.

Speaking of talismans, aren't Mars' ofuda to be counted as specialty items?

She's able to use them as part of her attacks, so I think they're not just spiritual items, but rather that her abilities came to conform with this particular incarnation. Most of Mars' attacks are particular to the duties of a miko.

Luna Love

Pyramidal Crystal

Posts : 139Join date : 2014-01-29

Subject: Re: [Debate] Talismans Thu May 19, 2016 5:46 am

The moon power isn't a Venus power, it's just another tranformational item given to her to use.

I image when Naoko created the disguise items, she could have made some for all the senshi if it had remained relevant but it was really only relevent in Sailor V when enemies were weaker and acted more human on a daily living basis.

In the new series focusing on Sailor Moon, once the first season is done we see disguised used maybe once more and even then it was just unnecessary use for show in the manga.

They have powers and etc. that make the need for discretion silly when their hensions are already disguises.

The old anime even goes to show the power can be used by anyone.

Using items is Sailor Moon's main thing and I've always viewed the need for items to generate power as weakness.

I always preferred the versions of wink chain sword using swords made of pure energy and light like Minako's powers usually are made of, the chain representing her metal powers aside from her light/energy powers.

Crystal disappointed me by turning a cool Venusian attack into an impossibility without the help of a moon item, the Holy Moon Sword.

Wood and Air are separate elements. Makotos elements are storm based but just storm based when it comes to air. Her powers are mostly nature based in the sense of weather/lightening storms and wood.

Haruka's powers are solely air. Even ground shaking is an air based attack. With enough air pressure, she cracks and manipulates the ground.

Since her air powers aren't limited to weather or storms, and it's more about directing wind and Air force, this explains her speed (think Aang from Avatar:The last airbender) and her strength when using that power on a condensed form like the outers usually do with their attacks.

Spiritual powers are great for fighting evil. That's usually what they are believed to exist for so it's no wonder an ofuda can exorsize an evil spirit.

Mars could be a spirtual planet but I imagine as Sailor Mars reborn in the present, she incorporated the ofudas into her attacks instead of always having them in the silver millennium.

I imagine all Senshi items can be used outside of Senshi form as we've seen of the vast majority of them. It's not practical to do so but they could.

The Mercury Computer, the Aqua Mirror, the Crescent Compact, Usagi's compacts/broaches, and all transformational pens are disguised as every day items and so can be pretended to be used as such.

Staffs, swords, lightening rods that only form with Jupiters Senshi Tiara and etc. could be used outside of senshi form, if Makoto wore her Tiara or they needed to use weapons outside of transforming whether they are all talismens or not.

The three talismans; the Garner Orb, the Aqua Mirror and Space Sword are like a holy trinity of powers that togetger form a special purpose despite having separate uses. The reason they are talismens in the Sailor Moon universex and nothing else is, is because they are connected by a singular purpose and that purpose wouldnt work without all three.

No other items do this.

Thenwhole talisman ordeal was special because of when these three items work together, not separately or they'd just be regular senshi items like all the rest of them.

east02west

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Subject: Re: [Debate] Talismans Thu May 19, 2016 6:42 am

I disagree on the Air/Wood front in relation to Jupiter. Think woodwind instruments and you'll see what I mean.

If memory serves in the traditional Chinese system of elements,Wood takes the place of Air, with Metal taking the place of Earth.

Lightning comes about from the expansion and contraction of air pressure. The same is true of hurricanes and cyclones.

The relationship between trees and thunder/lightning goes back to ancient times across cultures. When a tree was was struck during a thunderstorm it was believed that they housed the energy of the deity. As such, various trees were sacred to them. Stones and various other mace like objects are likewise employed in the same way. Her lightning rod is basically a mace stuck to her tiara, which theoretically is her talisman weapon. Her upgrade in Dreams reflects that. There is also the fact that as a daughter of Jupiter, she is born from the crown of his head. She is Minerva,which explains her strength,though we never quite see her display wisdom. Ami for some reason came to represent knowledge, though in accord with the mythology Mercury is more craftiness and wit.

Luna Love

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Posts : 139Join date : 2014-01-29

Subject: Re: [Debate] Talismans Thu May 19, 2016 10:59 am

Lightening isn't solely created by air pressure and there are several different types of lighting actually.

Naoko may have been influenced by some Chinese elements but they weren't the final influence. Makoto as someone else said before, is a mixture of the wood element but also had her Roman counterpart Zeus is a big influence.

Aside from lightening and storms there is no air element and lightening isn't always seen as an air element in all cultures. Some times is quintessence, some times it's a result of fire, sometimes it's not viewed as an element but just pure energy.

Hurricanes and cyclones have way more to do with water tempature than simply air pressure. Especially hurricanes.

I feel as if a wooden musical instrument doesn't explain a Wood and Air power as an element but as a musical instrument only.

It's hard to put the senshi directly to any mythical ancient deity and say, that one is solely her and no other diety can fuly Represent her because they aren't copies of a single diety but simply inspired by a bunch of them.

I'm sorry but I just disagree her lightening rod or anything other than the Three Talismens are the same as the Three Talismens.

As I said, what makes those three items a Talisman is their COMBINED purpose of alerting to Sailor Saturn.

What purpose could be brought of combining any other Senshi items to make them special talismens and not just weapons or items?

east02west

Pyramidal Crystal

Posts : 333Join date : 2015-03-14Age : 30

Subject: Re: [Debate] Talismans Thu May 19, 2016 2:21 pm

Lightning is created by the encounter between an electrically charged cloud and another cloud, or between it and the earth (CG lightning). As such it has to do with air in the broader sense of the term.

Makoto's attacks aren't all lightning based, which is why I favour the explanation that she is Air. Aether (which is what Quintessence refers to:the fifth essence/element) isn't the same as lightning. Aether in my understanding is more like the light/life force of divinities. It's not the same as lightning. For some reason I think you might be referring to W.I.T.C.H with that particular characterization, and if so, you'll not that Wilhemena's powers are closer to Usagi's.

Hurricanes and cyclones do have to do with water temperature, but it the combination of torrential winds, rain, and thunderstorms which allow for a hurricane to form. Howling winds are a trademark of hurricanes.

RE: Wood-Wind:

"The trigrams are related to the five elements of wu xing, used by feng shui practitioners and in Traditional Chinese Medicine. Those five elements are wood, fire, earth, metal, and water. The Water (Kan) and Fire (Li) trigrams correspond directly with the Water and Fire elements. The element of Earth corresponds with both the trigrams of Earth (Kun) and Mountain (Gen). The element of Wood corresponds with the trigrams of Wind (Xun) (as a gentle but inexorable force that can erode and penetrate stone) and Thunder (Zhen). The element of Metal corresponds with the trigrams of Heaven (Qian) and Lake (Dui)."

-https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bagua

True, but they do correspond to them in certain and particular respects. Wood corresponds to the planet Jupiter which though a masculine element can display feminine qualities. That's basically Makoto in a nutshell. The senshi's powers and personalities are influenced by different sources of mythology. Pluto's upgrade in Dreams corresponds to Zeus' Crown:

"AristophanesinPlutusmakes a humorous comment on victorious athletes who are crowned with wreath made of wild olive instead of gold:[7]

Quote :

Why, Zeus is poor, and I will clearly prove it to you. In the Olympic games, which he founded, and to which he convokes the whole of Greece every four years, why does he only crown the victorious athletes with wild olive? If he were rich he would give them gold.

Birth[edit]

After he swallowed her pregnant mother,Metis, Athena is "born" from Zeus' forehead as he grasps the clothing of Eileithyia on the right;black-figured amphora, 550–525 BC, Louvre.

Although Athena appears before Zeus at Knossos — in Linear B, as

Luna Love

Pyramidal Crystal

Posts : 139Join date : 2014-01-29

Subject: Re: [Debate] Talismans Thu May 19, 2016 4:01 pm

I still don't see it I'm sorry, all of my previous arguments still stand for the theory to me.

To elaborate on why I view lightening as a fifth element is not because of W.I.T.C.H. but because it's viewed that way by a lot of cultures and and lot of mediums.

It's not really just an air thing, that's if you take the meaning a different way.

In a philosphical way it's just refering to energy and is often called heaven's energy, energy of life and etc. In some cultures. This in relation to lightening as a fifth element.

Ether is not viewed as an air element by all. I didn't even know it was honestly. It was always viewed like a seperate unexplanable energy used in veils, other realms, pure energy, a combination of elements (Fairy Tale is unique to this idea of ether). I've personally only ever heard of either used like this in reference to a fifth element and never as synonymous as an air element.

The fifth element is either portrayed as a energy source be it lightening, life, love or pure energy.

In a way, Usagi, Minako and Makoto if we broke down their powers into elements could be considered weilders of the fifth element over any other element.

Usagi-life, love, light, energy

Minako-light, energy, love

Makoto- Lightening(often associated as a power directly linked to life, light and pure energy)

We're making elements to broad to categorize their powers as a single element for something like storms which is a combination of multiple elements.

Ami could be water and Air considering her powers aren't just water but ice and you can't have ice without cold "air".

Hurricanes can NOT exist without water. They form over oceans, its not just the air pressure or water temperature. The same goes for rain, you can't have rain without water.

Makoto is more of just lightening storms and hurricanes and cyclones generate lightening.

Lightening is viewed as a fifth element, or air or even fire. Volcanos generate lightening. Extreme heat can generate lightening.

Lightening is the only thing connect in her to storms, and I view the lightening as the important part, not the mention of hurricanes and cyclones because those powers don't come with wind and water, only lightening and her wood element come with lightening as well meaning her connection to lightening is not fire or air, but a fifth element.

If we make the element so broad, than technically we could argue Rei has a connection to a fifth element too.

It's been theorized that Vesta or another Asteroid Senshi has animal based powers.

Most of Mars attacks include life elements.

The words of animals, pheonix, snake, her crows. A Mandela is representative of the cycle of life and creation.

Spirit powers are often seen as a fifth element, an ability beyond the normal connected to life and death.

To shorten and hone in on a specific element we need to look at the powers and not just the names.

We have to look at it as a whole using the powers WITH the names together.

Then we can start debunking the ones that don't fit fully because there are only so many elements and their powers are too broad to be broken down into a single one sometimes.

What is the meaning of the Fifth Element?

In classical thought, the four elements earth (γῆ), water (ὕδωρ), air (ἀήρ), and fire (πῦρ) frequently occur; sometimes including a fifth element or quintessence (after "quint" meaning "fifth") called aether (αἰθήρ) in ancient Greece and akasha in India.

These two aether and akasha are not air elements. They are represenetive of a higher power, either by knowledge, life, lightening, energy, love,heaven, and other such things, that is what fifth elements are usually portrayed as. Air is its own element.

That aside, I still don't see any other items currently existing in the series as a Talisman because those were created to be used together for a single purpose despite having separate abilities.

There aren't any other items I can think of that do this so they just seem like individual items and weapons to me and not necessarily talismens.

It doesn't mean that like Queen Serenity, Neo Queen Serenity won't make talismans for a different purpose later in the future.