Dow Williams wrote: My partner's guy had on $1300 dead bird, head to toe and an expensive bag. Supposedly quite experienced, in fact bagged more 11er's than either my partner or I. My guy hung. Dead bird guy cost us a bivy at 11K during unsettled weather. Had to be pitched out at every corner. Who knows what his shit weighed. As I brought everyone to the summit on a belay during the last bit of light we had....I was a cursing. Anyone who knows me knew way before this experience, I damn near make it a policy to avoid anyone wearing deadbird (unless the almighty dollar is involved of course). It just means trouble. I knew that and still got caught in the shit with a deadbirder.

i swear it wasn't me !!!!

i only wear my dead birdies to pick up ski bunnies these days ... really

courses ... bahhh ... can't let everyone see im a yuppie if i wear mec clothes after taking the courses

jschrock wrote:Just in case y'all missed it...this guy Dow climbs a lot. And real hard too. He even climbs real hard a lot. He's also a hard alpine climber who climbs all the time ... and hard.

Just in case you missed it...or didn't get the memo or something.

Yeah, I got the memo, the guy climbs a lot. And hard. And only with dirtbaggers. Or, with guys who don't measure up but wear expensive gear,(and perhaps pay the way?) resulting in their scorn from Dow. At least here on the internets. . .

Hey Dow, btw, I certainly did not take anything, not one little bit, personally. Rather, your posts provide great comic relief. Amazing, really,(coming from some dirtbag climber like yourself), and semi-regular. Your judgemental generalizations of bullshit couldn't fill the largest crevasses on Rainier. But keep at it, you'll someday really get your point across.

Last edited by dskoon on Thu Dec 09, 2010 6:13 am, edited 1 time in total.

One more thing there, Dow, seems Welle and I aren't the only ones disagreeing with your posts. But, if you want to call us both out and say we were taking it "personal," well, it just adds more to the comic relief you provide.

Why do you give special thanks to OR, Osprey, and Backcountry.com in your profile if you think people who buy their stuff are Kooks ??

Perhaps, as a guide, you serve yourself and your clients better by keeping your opinions of those you have guided to yourself.

Many people make choices in life and wonder what the other side of the coin feels like. they spend their weekends and their extra dollars chasing it but it's never the same as living it every day. Most of these folks get into the usual trappings and try to keep steady as the bills pile up, the kids need braces, the dog ate a beer can, the wife wants to remodel, etc. they live vicariously through sites like this, blogs, topo software, and research their gear and it helps them to inch closer to that one week a year where they shed it all and live like you live for a brief moment. Had they the experience to know that a walmart windbreaker works about as well as a Mountain Hardware one then they may have rethought it. But you know how good these companies are marketing. So they pay an extra 40 or 50 bucks for the pictures of the guy on the portaledge looking happy in his warm jacket. But you know, the Patagonia Jacket is well thought out and has the design benefit of 100 pros for over a decade tweaking every last thing about it. And if you have any kind of sense you simply wait for the sale anyway. I don't pay full price ever, no reason too. Know what you want and wait for it, it always comes.

I had the good fortune of running into a true dirtbagger this summer and yes, mearly by talking to him for a bit I got some good insight. Guy was a climber and a burly hiker for sure. He stayed at the trailhead and caught us the next day after we had camped overnight and were slogging up a pass to our second night stay. he bagged a peak with my buddy while I fished. I admired him as he had very little gear and only a loaf of bread and a luna bar. He drank from the high lakes and filled his gatorade bottle up before splitting. He had a long way out and left an hour before dark. Cool dude and you know he is tough. He did comment about my BD tent and how his was from Wal-Mart. I didn't really care as that night it blew 60mph all night and I slept like a baby with a belly full of food and good scotch, tucked in my nice warm sack of dead birds, while my expensive tent barely moved in the gusting wind, only staked at the 4 corners.

Now don't get me wrong saying that I need expensive gear, but knowledge comes from experience, as does skill. The more I head to the backcountry, the more things come out of my pack and I do find that some of my more expensive purchases were overkill. But then some of them were way worth it and I shivered for years in a crappy cheap bag, and got chased off my stargazing rock one too many times by cold wind. I got the goods and they work great.

Dow, what is your problem with amateur climbers who don't climb full time (who also happen to be your bread and butter)? They don't spend every day climbing and training hard like you do, therefore they have to compensate with better, warmer, lighter gear to avoid epics.

I have looked pass your little "personal" attacks on me and for the sake of a good legitimate discussion, while generally agreeing with you, I was trying to make an argument for either side. It is interesting that you have selectively ignored Crackers' comments and decided to pick on me and Dskoon. I get it - we are the "5.6 climbers" of this forum - non-controversial weaklings.

I climb with hardmen who still wear painter pants and climb on straightshaft tools (I actually started clibming on straightshaft too), but I also climb with hardmen who can afford better gear and choose to support local businesses. I choose my gear (and everything else I own) wisely so it lasts for years - I usually wear things to the ground. My pack is 3 years old, has holes from crampons etc. and is my year-around pack for cragging, alpine, ice and backpacking - my partners shame me into getting a new pack, funny to hear that from men to a girl. I have one sleeping bag that I use from summer into winter (I did buy an expensive -20F sleeping bag for a canceled expedition, but it has to go, since I've decided if I can't climb fast and light I should probably be better off not climbing that mountain). I work 9-5 and only climb on weekends, so I'm not hard enough to rough it Carhartts in below-zero temps yet, therefore I have my softshells - what's wrong with that? Less mountain statistics and less work for SAR. For the record, I do give money to conservation non-profits and also donate my time as a volunteer webmaster for one, and have hired a guide.

I come from a fairly warm clime, so perhaps this is a biased observation. But most of the climbers I see have a lot more money invested in their racks, versus their clothes. Dirt-baggers and nouveau riche both have similar goals about staying alive, and I doubt either group is inclined to scrimp on hardware. The dirt-baggers are possibly more likely to sleep in their cars versus motels, and more likely to liberate booty before it is ripe.

We have a pretty good SAR team out here, so folks are usually rescued rather quickly (well, sometimes it takes 5 years if the climber was solo). But shock, and hypothermia, set in rather quickly (even at 55F) when people get injured and stop moving, so it might be nice if more folks carried warm emergency items. It wouldn't take a fancy jacket, but people would be more likely to carry it if it didn't weigh much and packed up small (quite ironic, when people are will to carry 50lbs of gear, but that's the way it is).

since it's worn by all types of sponsored athletes, wearing it yourself will elevate you to their level ...

never mind the fact that the materials are the same as any outdoor brand, and the quality the same ... and that its mostly made over there (land of the dim sum) these days ... just the mystique of the name will justify the price

There you go Welle, good post, I knew you could discuss the subject at hand versus worrying about how many homes I might own....dude, the post is about why some of you guys get conned into paying $600 for a jacket or $1000 for a bag that, in my (and many others opinion who spend a lot of time in the field testing clothing systems in harsh elements) do not serve you well. Some of you are mislead that you can buy a bag or jacket that will save your life (one such guy stated same in this thread!). Learning how to properly dig a snow cave might save your life, but not some $1000 bag over a $200 bag made of the same friggin material. For $600, I guess you think you are buying a bomber jacket....but as already pointed out, that does not do anything for you but make you sweat more. Sweat kills. Keeping dry should be your utmost concern. Agreed that if you are not climbing hard, but more or less going at a steady hiking rate, it is not as much of an issue. But as you progress to more technical routes....layering becomes that much more critical. And if you are climbing a lot, worrying about putting a hole in your $600 pants or jacket should be the furtherest thing from your mind. It is marketing. It is hype. It is branding. There are many great brands out there, but dird bird is not one of them in my opinion.....their proud logo wearing customers remind me of the same folks who use to pay twice as much for the same Landrover model that had the exact same engine in it than the lessor priced model. The lower priced model, everyone concurred, was so much more durable when put to the test in west Africa. Yes, I always express my opinions openly and without sugar coating......and never worry about who is insensitive enough to think they were shit on personally. Some love it, some loath it. It is no act.

But, here is something real you can actually bite into versus making shit up about how many homes I own, how much I drink, etc...the junior high debate style several of you seem attached to.....my lovely wife asked what I was typing out yesterday afternoon...she knows my policy about climbing with someone covered in deadbird all to well....I told her and she chuckled as she pointed out that I had a dead bird shirt on!!!! Dude, I don't think I knew I even owned one.....it has been one of the most comfortable lay around the house shirts in my closet for years. I obviously don't pay much attention to my clothes, I looked down on my chest and sure enough, there is the dead bird. Now that is some funny shit if you ask me.

PS, I know someone gave me this shirt somewhere along the line!!!! I did not buy it.

It's also one of the portfolio brands of AmerSports, a holding company in distant Helsinki, where decisions are driven by bottom line.Not to be confused with Feathered Friends, a family owned company that still manufactures their stuff in Seattle.

welle wrote:Not to be confused with Feathered Friends, a family owned company that still manufactures their stuff in Seattle.

I have a good friend, not particularly wealthy, who gets most alpine gear from Feathered Friends. Why? Well, when she went to Denali she was quite fit, but... about 110 lbs and slim. Fit and weight were important to her, and the extra expense was fairly trivial compared to the costs of taking 2 weeks off from work and getting to the mountain and back.

If anyone knows a brand of sticky rubber-soled shoes, made in the USA, please tell me; I'm serious. The closest I've found is NB trail runners.