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When individuals start adding others to "lists" just to watch what they MAY Do and they have no authority over anything, that leads to problems.

Emuna, i understand very well that you are innocent and also a victim on this issue....but from what i read, this (alleged) list seems to me like some kind of list made by the merchants to include the names of the members from the vip group of the thief store. I already said that you and anyone that bought the animations should be able to understand that from the point of view of the original animators all the members of that group are potential resellers of their stolen animations...I do not remember to have read that Xavier stated that the list including your name is being distributed or made public, nor that you and the other people included on that (alleged) list are tagged as "Thieves" or "copybotters". IMO, they are entitled to keep an eye to those who may have their stolen animations to be sure that are not resold.Please correct me if I'm wrong

I really believe that it's quite possible that Xavier were a bit rude and harsh, but i'm convinced that you also could have handled better the situation.There were other options than coming here to write a post...I think that if you would had suffered at some time in your own skin the experience of having your own work copied and distributed by the grid as full perm (wich i'm pretty sure you don't), maybe you would have had a little more understanding about Xavier manners...

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Deja - This is the statement that caused me to believe you thought that we had not researched this person. I sincerely apologize if that was not your meaning: "And before someone says well why should she pay when she has no proof they were stolen...I think we're all smart enough to be able to do a little research (as in go to their shop and see) if they really do belong to that creator. I think saying you can't tell is just not believable if you've compared them. I think it would be easy to play them side by side and be able to tell. I just don't think that has been done by the OP perhaps? I dont know."

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Deja - This is the statement that caused me to believe you thought that we had not researched this person. I sincerely apologize if that was not your meaning: "

And before someone says well why should she pay when she has no proof they were stolen...I think we're all smart enough to be able to do a little research (as in go to their shop and see) if they really do belong to that creator. I think saying you can't tell is just not believable if you've compared them. I think it would be easy to play them side by side and be able to tell.

I just don't think that has been done by the OP perhaps? I dont know."

Ah well let me elaborate then...if you look in that paragraph I said "I think it would be easy to play them side by side and be able to tell." That is referring to the ones you bought and comparing to the ones he is saying were stolen. Obviously if you have them...to compare side by side then it's after the purchase. And I was talking about purchasing them again from the legal creator...after you had already purchased them from the theif, just to keep your sales going (just throwing out ideas to keep your sales going cause you know I'm all about the sales lol). And I didn't know if you had actually done a side by side comparison with what you bought with what the creator is claiming got stolen from his store, which is why I said i didn't know if the OP had done that yet...I don't think I saw anywhere that you had done that (and most probably wouldn't...I certainly wouldn't.) Sorry for the confusion...it was all meant for after the purchase. I'm in total agreement with you on where you stand! promise!

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That's not true at all. There seems to be plenty of compassion to go around. Not everyone will always have it for everyone else, at all times. That is very much true. But that doesn't change the fact that there is a lot of compassion being tossed about here, in both directions. I think it's being overlooked though.

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I really believe that it's quite possible that Xavier were a bit rude and harsh, but i'm convinced that you also could have handled better the situation.There were other options than coming here to write a post...I

think that if you would had suffered at some time in your own skin the experience of having your own work copied and distributed by the grid as full perm (wich i'm pretty sure you don't), maybe you would have had a little more understanding about Xavier manners...

Emphasis is mine. This is the exact point many disagree with you,I think. It's the exact point I disagree with you on anyway, well one at least. There is never a need for poor manners, regardless of what is going on, never. If, or I should say when because we all do it, you cross the line and behave poorly with poor manners, it is you(in this case Xavier) that needs to have more understanding, not everyone else around you. We can all probably remember a time, if not current, then in the past, when we behaved poorly and wish we had done it differently. Sometimes some people use those moments as learning tools. An apology for our bad choices, or poor actions, can go a long way. Those of us who are parents raise our children to apologize for their mistakes and misgivings, do we not? Why do we let go of that ideal when it comes to grown adults, who really should know better and should practice what they preach?

ETA: This is my subtle version of an adult telling a child to "say you're sorry" after he's hit a little boy because someone else hit him first. In other words, two wrongs don't make a right, and hurting someone else because you've been hurt is NEVER the answer.

Not that I'm in any sort of authoritative position(or that anyone else is a child), NONE of us hold any sort of authority over one another. The two situations are just about as close to what happened as I can think of at the moment.

Camp 2 - Sees Emuna's side and Xavier's side, but think Xavier could have handled it better.

Camp 3 - Sees Emuna's side and Xavier's side, but think they both could have handled it better.

It took me hours to read the 16 pages of this thread (english is not my native language), and omg, i have now a hard migraine. If i had to choose a camp, i think that i would choose the 3rd one too.

Im mediteranean, and trust me i know what anger means better than a lot of other pp. Im myself a hothead. But, i have for me the fact i know how to admit my mystakes and apologize for them.

I think both are victims, i have full empathy for both, but i also think both has mistaken in some ways.

Xavier, you have contacted Emula in a really harsh way and even worst, you have (i say you, but imho, its not only you but all the pp of your watchdog group) quite a bit get Emula's business reputation in danger. Slander someone is something as reprehensible as steal someone. The way you talked to her or about her in the forum is wrong and just insinuating shes so guilty as the thief even if you never said she's a thief. Then, i guess your anger made you say some silly things like "when you will make so big incomes like me you will be able to talk" to Darrius (not your original words but i ve read yours in this meaning). So yes, anger can make pp missing some objectivity and drive them to say silly things. Im sure you didnt think them this way. Maybe your words have been over what you was thinking. It would be something really responsible to come here and just tell us, ok, you were under the shock to have been stolen, you thought that everyone here wasnt trusting the fact you have been stolen (i think now, its clear that everyone trust you). and ok, you ve talken with too much hot temp. And you aknowledge the fact there was better way to handle this problem and to contact Emula, but you're just human. Now you will know.

Emula, i know you felt scared first, and secondly wrongly accusated. This is something everyone can understand here and maybe it would have been better to answer directly Xavier before alerting the forum. I agree with you on the watchdog groups, nothing can be done good with this kind of things. Noone, in rl, is allowed to make justice by him/herself, and this for really great reasons, and i think, its same for SL. SL has TOS that have values of SL laws and the ones who have to make justice are LL themselves. But maybe you have stigmased Xavier a lil too fast. We know you were feeling wrongly accused. Just try too Xavier's shoes and imagine your anger then, if smth same happened to you. So all you need here is a lil empathy for Xavier too... he s been rude.. indeed... i could be the first one to condamn him for this... he has been stubborn in this forum too... but well... who knows how i (or you, or everyone else here, except the one who have lived this yet) would have reacted under the shock ? Ima told us he had a great behave, and i admire him for this (im sorry Ima, maybe you are a she, lol, sorry if i mistake), but we are not all Ima. So in the doubt its still better to not condamn. So maybe you could come here and just tell us that yes, youve been hurted, but so, you havent maybe seen Xavier's pain.

You are both victims of this stupid and shameless thief, but it wont help you both to fight against each other. Best will be prob to keep in contact both and to see if you can bring some help in both parts. Maybe Emuna can help Xavier to bring the evidence to LL that he has been stolen, and maybe Xavier can replace some of the animation that Emuna had to delete for a cheap price. The interest is here. If you fight, you wont have nothing more than more anger and at last bitterness and you will be looser both. If you act like responsible adults and consider you are both victims so in the same camp, you will bring something to each other and you will be winners both.

Of course this is more easy for me to say this because im not part of the argue and so i dont have any anger. I just try to bring you here an objective opinion. The one from someone that is also a merchant and also a customer and above all a SL resident that see this from the outside. When you are involved in a fight you just can see things with your subjectivity because it s the way it works. when you are not, you see things without any affectivity interaction. So, when its my turn to be involved, whatever the willing i have to beat my adversary to death, lol, i always keep an eye on outside pp opinions, bec with time, ive learnt they are more right at this moment that me when im angry.

Im not asking you become both best friend forever, but just consider the fact you are both victims from the same persons and if you dont aknowledge the fact you are both in the same camp, the thief will be the winner.

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Emphasis is mine. This is the exact point many disagree with you,I think. It's the exact point I disagree with you on anyway, well one at least. There is never a need for poor manners, regardless of what is going on, never. If, or I should say when

because we all do it,

you cross the line and behave poorly with poor manners, it is you(in this case Xavier) that needs to have more understanding, not everyone else around you. We can all probably remember a time, if not current, then in the past, when we behaved poorly and wish we had done it differently. Sometimes some people use those moments as learning tools. An apology for our bad choices, or poor actions, can go a long way. Those of us who are parents raise our children to apologize for their mistakes and misgivings, do we not? Why do we let go of that ideal when it comes to grown adults, who really should know better and should practice what they preach?

Ima...I'm not trying to justify the Xavier manners. I already said that he probably was a bit rude or harsh in the notecard (though none of us knows for sure how harsh he was as we have not seen such notecard)...I said as well that probably he could been nicer in the way to contact the OP...but seriously, is that a major reason to create such drama? not in my opinion.

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Emphasis is mine. This is the exact point many disagree with you,I think. It's the exact point I disagree with you on anyway, well one at least. There is never a need for poor manners, regardless of what is going on, never. If, or I should say when

because we all do it,

you cross the line and behave poorly with poor manners, it is you(in this case Xavier) that needs to have more understanding, not everyone else around you. We can all probably remember a time, if not current, then in the past, when we behaved poorly and wish we had done it differently. Sometimes some people use those moments as learning tools. An apology for our bad choices, or poor actions, can go a long way. Those of us who are parents raise our children to apologize for their mistakes and misgivings, do we not? Why do we let go of that ideal when it comes to grown adults, who really should know better and should practice what they preach?

Ima...I'm not trying to justify the Xavier manners. I already said that he probably was a bit rude or harsh in the notecard (though none of us knows for sure how harsh he was as we have not seen such notecard)...I said as well that probably he could been nicer in the way to contact the OP...but seriously, is that a major reason to create such drama? not in my opinion.

Congratulations Deja!!:matte-motes-grin:

I'm not trying to argue with you here either, but I'm not sure we define drama the same, to be honest, and it might be a language thing, I don't know for certain. I don't consider a lot, the majority even, of the replies here in this thread to be creating or even contributing to drama. I think it's a pretty good discussion and not only can we all learn better ways ot deal with things like this, but also that we CAN communicate pretty well here, for the most part. Even healthy discussions can be fuled by emotion.

Emuna's original post did not name Xavier. This is one thing that has stuck in my mind this entire thread. He came here to name his own self. Granted I am sure we all understand why he did, he didn't want his own name defamed, and may have thought that's what was happening. But I'm not certain Emuna did defame him when she came here, because none of us knew who she was talking about. Had the name remained anonymous, I'm willing to bet the thread would have gone differently.

Another point that sticks out to me is that LL told her to AR him. Surprisingly, as dumb as they might seem at times, they don't often say things like that unless they feel there is a need. If they felt so, then I believe Emuna had every reason to feel the same. There must have been something in that message that was worthy of an AR. Usually when bickering like that happens LL tells you(assuming they tell you anything at all) that they do not involve themselves in resident to resident disputes and they explain how to mute/ignore someone-which is their suggestion. AR-ing isn't a common answer, unless they actually see something worth it. (of course that also doesn't mean the AR will do any good, but the mere suggestion speaks a lot to me). I've been down that road with LL, on both sides of the fence, as the perpetrator of something worthy of an AR, and the victim(I did say I've made similar mistakes in the past, and overstepped).

As an aside about the defaming thing, this is another very bad side effect of lists, generally speaking. We know they are usually used for no good, even if the original intent was good. It's entirely possible Xavier looked at Emuna's post as if HE was now on "some list" as it were, or at least being judged harshly by some crowd. Much the same way Emuna felt being told she's "being watched". In fact much the same way most of us might feel, I think very few would think nothing of it. I think this might have been the point some other posters were making about how bad the lists really can be. Maybe he didn't think that at all, I don't know. But I can tell you, putting myself in his exact shoes mentally, making all the same steps he did, all the same statements, that's probably how I'd feel as well. I think it's safe to say plenty of us would.

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Emuna's original post did not name Xavier. This is one thing that has stuck in my mind this entire thread. He came here to name his own self. Granted I am sure we all understand why he did, he didn't want his own name defamed, and may have thought that's what was happening. But I'm not certain Emuna did defame him when she came here, because none of us knew who she was talking about. Had the name remained anonymous, I'm willing to bet the thread would have gone differently.

Another point that sticks out to me is that LL told her to AR him. Surprisingly, as dumb as they might seem at times, they don't often say things like that unless they feel there is a need. If they felt so, then I believe Emuna had every reason to feel the same.

I'ts not allowed by the rules of this forum to name people here. I guess that Emuna already knows about this rule, and that's something that also you should know^^....so Ima, that Emuna didn't name Xavier means nothing. About your surprise, anyone that have contacted at some time with LL support knows that the common response (especially regarding personal disputes) is "file a report". LL support do not act like judges, they suggest you to send a report because in this way the corresponding team (Abuse team) will investigate the issue. Emuna could have sent a report against Xavier, a whole different thing is if the abuse team would have found enough reasons as to have taken some action against Xavier's account.

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Emuna's original post did not name Xavier. This is one thing that has stuck in my mind this entire thread. He came here to name his own self. Granted I am sure we all understand why he did, he didn't want his own name defamed, and may have thought that's what was happening. But I'm not certain Emuna did defame him when she came here, because none of us knew who she was talking about. Had the name remained anonymous, I'm willing to bet the thread would have gone differently.

Another point that sticks out to me is that LL told her to AR him. Surprisingly, as dumb as they might seem at times, they don't often say things like that unless they feel there is a need. If they felt so, then I believe Emuna had every reason to feel the same.

I'ts not allowed by the rules of this forum to name people here. I guess that Emuna already knows about this rule, and that's something that also you should know^^....so Ima, that Emuna didn't name Xavier means nothing. About your surprise, anyone that have contacted at some time with LL support knows that the common response (especially regarding personal disputes) is "file a report". LL support do not act like judges, they suggest you to send a report because in this way the corresponding team (Abuse team) will

investigate

the issue. Emuna could have sent a report against Xavier, a whole different thing is if the abuse team would have found enough reasons as to have taken some action against Xavier's account.

I know that names are not permitted here, I didn't say they were. That "you should know" sort of response is what can seperate a good discussion, from an argument.

It does mean something that she did not share his name(here or elsewhere), whether it means something to you or not, I can't say, but it means something to me, which is why I said it. I didn't say you had to agree. She could have easily hinted, given enough clues for us to determine it on our own, could have shared his info outside of SL, if she so chose. But she did not. So yes, the fact that she did not reveal the other party, AT ALL, yet he did come in and reveal his own self, says something to me.

I have contacted LL multiple times, and have had plenty of experience both as the person that was reporting someone and as the person somsone else reported for overstepping when I shouldn't have. Their response is NOT always to file a report. In fact in most cases, they won't respond at all when you contact them these days. But for the times they do respond, there is a form message you'll get that has links pointing out how to mute/ignore. It's NOT common to get a message back telling you to abuse report someone-that's the advice other avs will give you, when you've already done so by contacting them in the first place. LL is extremely hands off, and has been for a very long time. They don't want the work involved with an AR, like investigating it. It's the last thing they'd suggest, when a mute/ignore would suffice, unless of course there was something they thought worthy of looking into. Of course you won't know if the AR does any good, because there won't be communication beyond it. That's LL's policy, unwritten of course, but we all know it's true.

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ETA: This is my subtle version of an adult telling a child to "say you're sorry" after he's hit a little boy because someone else hit him first. In other words, two wrongs don't make a right, and hurting someone else because you've been hurt is NEVER the answer.

This is so much the way I see it that it's worth repeating.

And as for camp 3 - This thread is NOT about what happened to Xavier. Anyone would have compassion for a merchant who experiences theft. But that is NOT the topic here. it's about what happened to Emuna, and the way Xavier treated her. So all this 'oh but be understanding because he was hurt' is a load of crap.

I've read pretty much all of this thread and haven't seen one valid point in how Emuna could have 'handled it better'. Is she expected to be understanding and compassionate towards someone who is practically accusing her of theft? Nobody would be.

Xavier forfeited his right to my compassion when he took his anger out another victim. Just like if a boy was bullied and he turned around and did the same thing to someone else, he would lose my sympathy.

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), whether it means something to you or not, I can't say, but it means something to me, which is why I said it. I didn't say you had to agree. She could have easily hinted, given enough clues for us to determine it on our own, could have shared his info outside of SL, if she so chose. But she did not. So yes, the fact that she did not reveal the other party, AT ALL, yet he did come in and reveal his own self, says something to me.

Ima, forgive me if i understood wrong...i already stated that i'm not english speaker^^. BUT...that still does not mean anything to me. Not being allowed to give names here in the forum, not much more she could have done to give clue about Xavier's identity (as far as i know she cannot name store, region, groups etc...either). But if you want to take this as a plus point to Emuna, i have no problem with it.

*EDITED: Xavier came to the forums when he could have remained anonymous. That what it means to me is that he's not hiding and has tried to explain the issue from his side...

About reports, depending on how you draw the situation LL support may suggest you to file a report, my point was that this is not a guilty verdict.

Rya, we can argue about Xavier manners or that he could have handled better the situation.....but to say (based on the posts) that he practically accused her of theft is too far from the truth.

), whether it means something to you or not, I can't say, but it means something to me, which is why I said it. I didn't say you had to agree. She could have easily hinted, given enough clues for us to determine it on our own, could have shared his info outside of SL, if she so chose. But she did not. So yes, the fact that she did not reveal the other party, AT ALL, yet he did come in and reveal his own self, says something to me.

*EDITED:

Xavier came to the forums when he could have remained anonymous

. That what it means to me is that he's not hiding and has tried to explain the issue from his side...

About reports,

depending on how you draw the situation

LL support may suggest you to file a report, my point was

that this is not a guilty verdict.

Rya, we can argue about Xavier manners or that he could have handled better the situation.....but to say (based on the posts) t

hat he practically accused her of theft is too far from the truth.

Seriously,

i give up...lol.

Good luck

to all with your business!

Precisely my thoughts. I only posted in the first place to give some encourgement to Xavier, who is not here anymore. Over and out.

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ETA: This is my subtle version of an adult telling a child to "say you're sorry" after he's hit a little boy because someone else hit him first. In other words, two wrongs don't make a right, and hurting someone else because you've been hurt is

NEVER

the answer.

This is so much the way I see it that it's worth repeating.

And as for camp 3 -

This thread is NOT about what happened to Xavier.

Anyone would have compassion for a merchant who experiences theft. But that is NOT the topic here.

it's about what happened to Emuna, and the way Xavier treated her. So all this 'oh but be understanding because he was hurt' is a load of crap.

I've read pretty much all of this thread and haven't seen one valid point in how Emuna could have 'handled it better'. Is she expected to be understanding and compassionate towards someone who is practically accusing her of theft? Nobody would be.

Xavier forfeited his right to my compassion when he took his anger out another victim. Just like if a boy was bullied and he turned around and did the same thing to someone else, he would lose my sympathy.

Since he's one of the 2 persons involved in the pb, i dont agree with you Rya. And no, this thread is not done to only condamn him. This thread has been started by Emuna bec she was revolted to have recieve a so rude email and was asking some opinions about it. Then Xavier came freely to join the discussion and to explain his point of view. We know all here that threads can start on something and quickly come to another point. There are 2 persons here and both are humans.

Do you think that in such case, Xavier should have start a second thread ? and so the discussion has to go over 2 threads ? Stop kidding... this is not serious. They argued here both.

Of course Xavier had a rude attitude and he attacked first. Emuna just defended herself. We all agree on this and noone is condamning Emuna for this, since we all condamn Xavier for his rudeness.

Both were angry and both have reasons for this. Both have been tactless. Emuna's behaviour was legitim since she has been attacked. But in her legitim need to defend herself, she didnt saw that Xavier was talking so rudly because he was hurted by the fact he has been stolen.

Now, after some days and since all have been said, i think its time to watch things with objectivity.

Xavier said in one of his posts "Maybe I could have chosen my words better, but keep in mind...i had just learned that I was robbed. And it was not a small theft, it was major."

The highlighted words mean that he aknowledge the fact that he didnt contacted her in the right way. Ok, he could have said it more clearly and i hope he will. We always learn from our mistake when we aknowledge them. Some people have already ask him to do it.

On the other hand, Emuna's fault, is surely to not have consider the fact he was talking under the emotion. A simply "hey ! i know you are hurted ! but its a not reason to talk to me like this ! im not your enemy" would have been really better than bring Xavier here in front of a kind Forum's jury to be condamned.

I see a lot of hypocrisis here. A lot condamn Xavier for his rudness, but how many of you would have Ima's wisdom if you find out you have been robbed ? I really would like to have this wisdom too, but well, since this never happened to me till today, i cant be sure.

Again, of course, Xavier's rudeness is nothing but condamnable. his stubborness here too. But damn, lets just consider the fact he was talking under emotion... just like Emuna was too. We cant ask pp not be perfect and never do mistake bec noone is perfect and safe to do mistake.

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I think this this has been a very worthwhile thread. As a reminder to all of us to treat each other with respect. Especially when dealing with customers, who are usually the more vulnerable. To see things from both sides. Put yourself in that person's shoes.

Trinity, I was referring more to how Emuna would have felt initially. I know how angry I would have been if I had been in her place. Not only to have lost the money but also to be threatened and placed on a list.

But as you say, maybe now is the time for both people to calm down. Hopefully, this thread has achieved that for them.

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Yeah, I also noticed Xavier has pulled the Big Exit. Not sure why though. I'm hoping that his conscience got the best of him and he decided to just go quiet. But .. there's always the possibility of the Mod-Hammer ..

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Yeah, I also noticed Xavier has pulled the Big Exit. Not sure why though. I'm hoping that his conscience got the best of him and he decided to just go quiet. But .. there's always the possibility of the Mod-Hammer ..

I assumed he just did not need any more grief right now with all he has to deal with.