I’m sorry… #BritMumsLive

I have wanted to write this post for a long time. I have tumbled thoughts around in my head for months, not sure how to articulate them without risking a nasty backlash. I have privately raged about the ‘voices’ that other writers have appropriated on the subject, but not had the confidence to add my own. It’s only now that I know the right words.

Feminism.

God what a frightening word that is.

On Friday I had the pleasure of speaking on the opening panel of BritMumsLive. Alongside journalism icons Eleanor Mills and Bryony Gordon, as well as Stella Creasy, MP, I talked with the very lovely Sarah Ebner, about women’s voices in the media. I can call Sarah lovely, because she is. It’s just a fact. She’s also a smart, determined lady who handled a tough job up there on that stage very well. There was discomfort over the fact that reports on Angelina Jolie’s campaign against sexual violence in conflict included reference to how she looked in her press photos. She looked gorgeous. Because she is gorgeous.

We had all been wearing tiaras on our arrival on the stage – a tribute to keynote speaker Emma Freud, who loves a glam headpiece. Everyone removed their tiara before taking their seat on our panel, except me. I like my tiara, and I rarely get the excuse to wear it. As the mic travelled along the sofa, I felt increasingly silly for being the only voice up there still in a tiara. Then this was tweeted:

It was the shake of common sense that I needed. As the panel stared at me in disbelief, I described my vision for feminism. How looking good doesn’t negate intelligence; a love of fashion – or indeed, frippery – is not an indicator of weakness; how my wearing a pink mini-skirt to work didn’t stop me working my way to the top of an incredibly male-dominated industry – on my own merit. And how completely happy I am to have my shoes publicly admired alongside my ability to speak articulately and with credence.

During my planning for BritMumsLive I had done some research. I checked out what the famous ‘feminists’ were saying last week in blog posts, and on twitter:

And I mean every single woman in public. The ones you like and the ones you don’t like: all of us get that shit for speaking while female.

Maybe I’ve been lucky. I’ve never had shit from a man for speaking while female. Or if I have, I haven’t noticed, because I’ve been too busy getting on with being the best person I can be. Not the best woman. The best person. I have, on the other hand, experienced aggression from some feminists, for disagreeing with them.

I don’t mind this kind of statement, to be honest. What I don’t like are the abrasive, agressive statements made by women widely regarded as feminists, that, in my opinion, only succeed in undermining women as a whole. Denigrating men as a swathe of society doesn’t improve the lot of women. In fact, it fuels the motivation of the idiots who like to put women down. It gives them something worth criticising. I don’t like the view of some feminists, that women will never be equal until there are more of them than men in politics, in business, in science, in media. I don’t like the suggestion that employers have a responsibility to positively discriminate in favour of women. Of course they don’t! Their responsibility is to their business – they should take the best person for the job, be they male or female, black or white, able-bodied or in a wheelchair, blonde or red-haired.

It turns out I am a feminist. Because I want my children to live in a society where being a man or a woman doesn’t matter. Where employers support the needs of both sexes to work productively, have a career, and enjoy their families. Where men respect women. And where feminist women respect men, and other women.

I’m sorry…

I didn’t say enough on Friday. Because what I wanted to say was this: that every single one of you bloggers at BritMumsLive over the weekend has a voice. Blogging has done that. The women I admire are not the women who shout the loudest about how unfair it all is. They are the women who quietly and professionally prove that women are every bit as instrumental in change for the better as anyone else. Women like Chris Mosler, and Jennie, who, with gentle passion and intelligence raise the profile of their chosen causes. Women such as Cass, who share their knowledge to help families cope with a minimum income. And yes, women like Helen Wallen, who talks about gin and says fuck a lot. They all have a voice, and someone is listening.

A couple of people looked at me differently on Friday when I mentioned that prior to being a mum, a mummy blogger, I had been a senior director of a blue-chip plc. They shouldn’t have. You don’t have to be a high profile journalist, a regular contributor to the Huffington Post, or an MP, to have a voice in media. Whether you are read by 25,000 a week, or by your husband and your mum, you have a voice. If you write about politics, campaigning, depression, or simply the impossibility of going to the loo without a young audience, your voice is relevant to someone. Don’t let anyone, especially a feminist, tell you that it isn’t.

That’s having a voice. It’s being a feminist. That’s what I meant to say on Friday.

Comments

Helen, I agree with you 100%. I so wish people, women were not judged by the way they look, pretty, not pretty, silly or not, one should be judged for their work. The best person should get the job definitely.Catherine recently posted…Flying Poop

You’re right. The panel were concerned with the media portrayal of women as things to be admired or criticised for their looks, and I guess that does happen. I was taking a slightly different stance, in that irrespective of all that, it’s quite possible as a woman to make things happen in spite of all that. I’m not saying it’s ok, because it’s not, but some women waste time fighting that, while others crack on and do amazing jobs, and ignore what people say about their looks. I’d prefer to be the latter.Helen recently posted…Expressions #12: Let it go for #BritMumsLive

This is spot on. I’m so tired of some feminists thinking it’s ok to talk down to others or dictate how they should look. It’s really starting to give a bad name to feminism in general as some are almost hijacking it and there always seems to be infighting about what defines feminism. Really it’s all just about equality and empowerment isn’t it?Notmyyearoff recently posted…Silent Sunday / Project 52 – Week 25

We’ll said! You may not have said as much on Friday as the other panelists but I remember more about what you said than the others so no need to apologise. I tell my children all the time that we should never generalise about whole groups of people. We are all individuals – some good, some not so good.Angela recently posted…Barbecued Chicken Drumsticks and why you shouldn’t wash raw chicken

Well said Helen! You have articulated so well what I have wanted to say about feminism.

Like you, I have not experienced shit from men just because I am a woman. Yes, I have had plenty of disagreements with men, my uncle, brother and husband included but they never once have dismissed me because I am female but they articulate themselves without resorting to name calling or being aggressive. I don’t dismiss their views because they are male. In fact my uncle who is a senior partner and department head of a large law firm, is himself a feminist in much the same way you and I are.Mummy Glitzer recently posted…Silent Sunday

The more I think about it, it’s not men that are the problem, it’s idiots. I noticed an ill-informed, antagonistic person giving Bryony Gordon some flack on twitter last night. But it was a woman, not a man. Men don’t have the monopoly on trying to undermine women. It’s just stupid, badly educated (or quite simply angry and and rude) people who try to bring others down when they’re doing their best.

Helen, great post. I think this message about the compatibility of tiaras (actual and metaphorical) and feminism came through. Very articulate and inspiring words.Jennifer Howze recently posted…What Americans coming to the UK need to know

I am not a feminist, purely because even though half of those I’m come across have been lovely, the other 50% have scared me with the ranting. I’m a true believer in the fact that you can get your point across, as you say eloquently, using your brain and have a much more positive impact that by bringing out the defensive rage. Newspapers tend to show the more grrrr side of feminism, I don’t see that as ‘men trying to keep the feminist movement down’ by only publishing the extreme, more pity at those women who feel that the only way to get the feminist voice out there is to be constantly angry and bossy.
Me, I believe in egalitarianism, yes it would be great to issues improve, but not at the expense of the snide digs at men that I always hear at conferences on panels. There’s always at least one generic dig at men and that makes me sad, even if it’s meant as a dig at a section of men that’s never how it comes across.
there endeth the essay xMammasaurus recently posted…Let It Go with Actually Mummy & Mammasaurus

It’s those digs that first riled me up and made me pay attention to what other people think of feminists. To blatantly disrespect men as a whole, just because you want better for women, is to really lose the support of such a huge part of the population, many of whom want the same things as women. Yes there are idiot anti-feminists, but I do wonder how many of them would just calm down if they weren’t faced with such a barrage of aggression.

Well said on every level. I would have found it very daunting being on the stage with the other ladies on that panel. I was so pleased when you said it’s ok for us to like the clothes as well as the story. And you rocked that tiara. X

I think you’re spot on Helen. Feminism isn’t about women being better than men, or putting men down. It’s about equality. It bothers me when I hear women saying “I’m not a feminist” because if you’re not a feminist, by default it means you think women are inferior and should be treated as such. Likewise, when people say “I don’t like the word feminism” – it is a fantastic word. Some people might misuse it but it’s up to us to change people’s perception of the word. And as for wearing a tiara and complementing women on how they look, I couldn’t agree more. Just as I love my daughter to wear pink, it doesn’t mean she isn’t being brought up to play with cars and footballs, it’s just a colour. It’s just a tiara.Alison Perry recently posted…Too Fat For Zara

Ah now I am not a feminist and it most certainly doesn’t mean that I think women inferior! That the guilty bullshit that feminism brings – either you are ‘for women’ and a feminist or you are letting the side down. I happen to think that those spouting that are the ones letting the side down.
Soz xMammasaurus recently posted…Let It Go with Actually Mummy & Mammasaurus

Annie I wrote my comment above before yours appeared btw so it wasn’t referring to you – even though it looks that way.

Ok so to explain further what I meant (I can see now that I didn’t say it in the right way) – I genuinely believe that if you believe in equality for women then you are a feminist. That is all feminism is. Equality. So the chances are, lots of people who say “I’m not a feminist” actually ARE feminists… they are just basing their non-feminist stance on the warped interpretation of feminism that some people project. But that’s not true feminism, hence why I said we need to change people’s perception of the word.Alison Perry recently posted…Too Fat For Zara

“Because it means …..” No. I am sorry Alison. That is your opinion It is not fact. Me saying I am not a feminist is for that exact reason. Because I am then told that i have to believe certain things, do certain things and behave a certain way.

I LIKE my husband holding a door open for me
I LIKE being at home cooking my husband’s dinner

I have never been told by a man I can’t do something But I am constantly told by women I can’t do something

Like I explained above Tanya, I explained my thoughts rather clunkily in my original comment.

As for being told to do certain things or behave in a certain way, just like Helen wore a tiara onstage and I love my daughter to wear pink, you can still be a feminist and enjoy your husband holding the door open for you. Or wear heels. Or make jam. Those things don’t mean you’re not a feminist and don’t want equality for women, equal pay, equal materinty/paternity rights etc. Anyone who tells you that you can’t do those things is just wrong.Alison Perry recently posted…Too Fat For Zara

All three of you are amazing women. You are supportive of other women, appreciative of men, grateful for the courtesies that some of them extend to women, and like to wear pink. (Actually, that last bit may not be true – I’ve never actually seen Annie or Tanya in pink, but they do both look very fetching in flowery prints)… 😉

I think you’re actually all saying the same thing, and a version of what I was trying to put across. That ANY choice a woman makes – or a man, for that matter – is absolutely fine, and should be respected. Dressing your daughter in pink, working from home, not working at all, enjoying compliments about your appearance, or gentlemanly courtesies – none of these things stop you being a strong voice for women (which all three of you are, by the way). And THAT is what feminism should mean, not the shouty, ranty, aggressive mantle it has taken on thanks to a few very unhappy women.

Obviously not. There are good choices, and bad choices. And more importantly, there are choices which you can make as an individual, for understandable reasons, but which are toxic when taken in aggregate. No individual woman should bear the burden of being expected to be perfect all the time, but the idea that “any choice by a woman is a feminist choice” is obviously absurd.

OBVIOUSLY I didn’t mean that! I should probably have been more laboured and said “any choice a woman makes that doesn’t directly hurt another person,” and I did think about it, but assumed that would be implied from the other things I’ve said here that support women as whole.

Being devil’s advocate….Page 3 hurts other women. So does porn as it creates a culture of objectification. But they’re often lauded as ‘choices’ that women make as if it’s in an individual vacuum. I’ve got a big problem with the simplification of feminism to choice…Juliet Oosthuysen recently posted…Say my name

Good point. Page 3 is abhorrent. I would argue that the women who applaud themselves for making this choice have no respect for women in general, therefore their actions are hurtful. Thank you for raising this – there are certainly some fine lines.

Helen, I thought you did great on Friday. Especially by keeping your tiara on! Why shouldn’t you look sparkly AND speak sense? And I think Bryony Gordon acknowledged that when she popped hers back on too. 🙂

Women do have choices now, and that’s brilliant, but what we must never do is start eroding these choices by tutting and muttering about how women shouldn’t look a certain way or take certain paths. That’s what is brilliant about you and all the amazing bloggers you mention above – they are all forging their own paths. Irrespective of gender. 🙂

I have to say that I give precisely zero thought to whether or not I’m a feminist in my day to day like, except when I’m sat watching other women debating about it. I’m much too busy trying to be an almost decent human being. If you start mixing in complications like treating different sexes differently it seems like an over complication of a simple concept.

Well said you! It’s time for feminism to stop being so damn scary. I said last year when I was on the panel for the feminism discussion at BritMums that many of us feel scared to state our opinion for fear of a harsh dressing down, and it shouldn’t be like that at all. Feminism literally means the advocacy of women’s rights on the ground of the equality of the sexes, and I am yet to find a woman who doesn’t agree with that – yet we are often made to feel that wearing heels, or being a stay at home mum, or a million other individual choices we may make, are anti ‘the cause’. Of course they aren’t, they are just us being who we are as women and as human beings. I am a humanist I think, I want equality for everyone, whatever sex, colour, religion, or biscuit preference.Sonya Cisco recently posted…Gone Potty – Adventures In Toilet Training

Right, I’m not sure where this comment is going to take me and I might well receive flack for it. Maybe my attitude is as it is because I went to an all girls private secondary school and had strong females as role models? Maybe my opinion is based on having an incredibly strong mother who has taught me to be independent and not rely on men because the men in her life have let her down? I’m not sure but here goes…

I hate the word feminism and I by and large dislike the issues that feminists bang on about. Like you and Annie, I’m more of an egalitarian, although even that grates on me. I believe in ‘equality of opportunity’ not that men and women are created equal, because we aren’t. There are some things men are intrinsically good at, there are some things women are better at. Then there are some things that I’m good at, and some things that my husband is good at and our genders have bugger all relevance. It doesn’t mean that given the opportunity people can’t work hard and be just as good, but I think it’s about time we recognised that regardless of gender we are not all created equal. We do all however, deserve the opportunity to reach our own potential regardless of gender, race or religion.

I also think that rather than banging on about feminism that they should just get on with it and prove they can be their own best.

Does that make sense? Have I waffled? Am I about to be shot down in flames?

(Oh and the way a person looks has bugger all to do with equality of opportunity. What the hell is the matter with having pride in your appearance and looking the best that you can?! Slight irony at previous Britmums that people were oogling mostly naked waiters while banging on a out feminism)TheBoyandMe recently posted…F is for…

THIS. Perfectly said. I echo all of it. Except, I would like to keep the word feminism, and change it to mean what we’re all saying here. Feminism shouldn’t be about putting men in their places, it’s about putting women in a position from which they can show their value more easily, according to their choice, without fear of recrimination from either of the sexes. It’s wrong that strong, intelligent women feel unable to identify with feminism because of what other women (and some idiotic men) have done to the word.Helen recently posted…Expressions #12: Let it go for #BritMumsLive

I love this post Helen and I so wish I had been there to hear you speak – especially with a tiara on 😉

You’re so right that we do all have a voice and we really should be proud to use it.

I want my daughter to grow up in a world where she is equal to any man and for my son to grow up respecting and valuing women. For them both to know that it doesn’t matter what colour someone’s skin is, what sex they are, how old they are, what sexual orientation they are or even what colour their hair is. None of that matters because we’re all the same inside – where it really counts!

The best person should get the job — the problem is that the best person may not feel able to apply, because the way the job is structured and the expectations around it, mean that she – or he – feels that they cannot apply.

Yes! I probably need to edit that aspect in. When Eleanor said that women self-select out of some jobs (because they don’t want to spend Saturday evening putting the Sunday Times to bed), and Stella countered that the paper should change their systems so that women can do the job without having to be there overnight on Saturday, I agreed and disagreed with both of them. Much as I thought Kirstie Allsopp’s vision was spot on, but very naive.

What needs to change is society as a whole, and the expectations placed on both men and women that say you can’t be a success unless you commit 24/7 to the job. I know a whole heap of men who would love to be able to do the school run without risking their careers, just as I know women who could run FTSE100 companies if only they didn’t have to be there every night for the bedtime story.

It’s a vision which feels like too much of a mountain to ever be achievable, but equality should be for both men and women, without needing family or personal interests to be sacrificed. And we’ve got to start somewhere.

I absolutely loved it when you said you’d thought about taking your tiara off, but actually it didn’t make a difference whether you had a valid point to make (or words to that effect)

I think women won’t be equal until they stop fighting each other and just get on with it. There’s so much arguing over things that are really neither here nor there when you look at it from a distance!

My daughter is two and it terrifies me sometimes, to think of the world she might grow up into – a world where people frown at me if I put her in a blue pirate t shirt rather than something pink and frilly that gets in the way of her mud-pie-making shenanigans. I went to a girls’ school where we were taught implicitly that there was no gender difference; you got by on merit, and there was never any question of girls leaving our school to go on and study sciences or anything else that might have been considered a “male” profession – or whatever the hell else they felt like doing. My hope is that I can find a school like this for my daughter.

Also I was very surprised to find when I started my blog that yes, actually, I did have a voice, and some people did want to hear it.Single Mother Ahoy recently posted…Women Inspiring Women Awards

Feminism for me goes and in hand with equality. My own husband identifies himself as feminist because he believes in equal rights for women. Unfortunately in many parts of life we are still not there despite things being ‘better’. Women are trolled online for their appearances (Mary Beard) and for campaigning for women to be recognised on our currency. Women online are constantly being told to shut up, go home or I’ll *insert the most disgusting threat you can think of here*. I have always been surrounded by strong women and I think of myself as a strong woman but I think the need for some kind of equality movement is still very much needed. If you read my blog you will know that I am a keen runner and I regularly have cat calls and threats. It is my right as a woman not to have to experience this but it is not about putting all men down it is about changing attitudes from groups of men towards women. I don’t always agree with everything all ‘feminists’ say and there is no ruel to say that you have to. If another woman is questioning your choices then I would argue that she’s probably not a believer in a woman’s right to choose. I also think as with any other issues you can choose which ‘feminist’ you read. I am a scientist I suppose but I don’t agree with everything Richard Dawkins says or the way he expresses himself, that does not mean I do not believe in science. I would identify as a feminist but I do not always agree with some thing that feminists ‘bang on about’ (hate that phrase). I have never let my gender hold me back but until women are treated with the same respect as men and we no longer need campaigns like ‘No More Page 3’ then I feel we still need feminism.

Actually I need to say something else:
Feminism for me is about teaching boys that girls are not objects for their satisfaction. Feminism for me is about teaching a young woman that she can choose a goal and go for it regardless of her gender. Feminism for me is teaching society that when a young woman walks home alone in the dark ‘she is not asking for it’ (something that outrageously still comes up in our justice system as a reason NOT to convict). I think I read something differently into feminism than many of the commenters here. Sorry I’ll stop ‘banging on’ now.kathleen recently posted…Positive Spinning and Letting it Go.

Kathleen, you are incredibly wise. We definitely need to ‘bang the drum’ of feminism where Page 3 and the ‘she asked for it’ brigade are concerned. Sadly, we will never get rid of this kind of image in certain publications while it still draws readership. It’s a commercial fact. I’m not sure what the answer is, but I do know that ranting doesn’t work. We need to be a lot more clever in our campaigning to make this stop, and I do believe we will get there one day.

We have a responsibility to teach both our boys and our girls respect. Women will never be respected for branding all men misogynists, just as men don’t deserve respect for thinking they are better than women.

Helen, well done. For writing this, and for sitting up there with composure and not getting too annoyed at them. I totally agree with you (and even more what TheBoyandMe said – we are not all created equal, but we all deserve equal opps. I feel ‘equity’ is a better more accurate word). I find it hard to sometimes to describe myself a feminist for exactly the same reasons – i don’t want to be tarred with the same brush. And I feel the strident feminists have put men in a position where they feel they can’t do anything right and have been emasculated…all to the detriment of us women! But that’s another blog post.
Also, you are so right to point out those wonderful strong, quiet women bloggers that we all know and love who do the best job for the cause of women….
Lastly, I have to say I had a real problem with the whole debate and the timing of it as did many others. It felt like it was a forced, imposed debate that most people in the room weren’t expecting or wanting at that moment. Emma Freud had done a brilliant speech and then this…so many people were switched off or left the room, which said a lot. Plus, how on earth did the men feel who were in the room???? Anyway, thank you for kicking this off….!Siobhan recently posted…What’s the Story? Fathers & Sons

That’s a shame Siobhan. I think what the rest of the panel had to say was equally valid, there just wasn’t enough time for such a huge subject. Fascinating debates and I wish I could sit down with them all over a glass of wine – bunch of very interesting women!

Oh idiot me, I didn’t explain myself very well! They all had equally valid points, absolutely, I meant not getting too annoyed at them because of the very issues you raised in this post, annoyed with the situation if you like, not the women themselves. And the debate itself was important, it was the timing that was the issue and the angle it took – it would have been much more welcome if it had been the next morning when people were in the mood for that kind of debate, and took the angle you’ve taken here, not doing the usual ‘women have it hard, we have to have 50/50 women/men on boards’ etc. Now that really would have got people sitting up and listening. You’ve hit the nail on the head here – no wonder you needed to get home to write on Sat night! I normally am interested in these kind of debates (avid Woman’s Hour listener), and i couldn’t understand why i was struggling to concentrate until i realised afterwards, whilst talking with others who felt the same, why that was so. It was a shame, as the issues they were discussing are important. And I have to say, i sat up and listened to what you had to say precisely because you didn’t get much of an opp. to speak and you spoke so eloquently when you did. You made such good points (esp about not reacting in the same spirit, as i tweeted at the time). Oh and btw, I should have said in my first comment something i thought at the time: I’m not at all surprised you were a director of a blue-chip company – you are the director of a blue-chip blog…..Siobhan recently posted…What’s the Story? Fathers & Sons

So well put hun and as a female in a male dominated job until a couple of years ago too, it was rare for me to experience any negativity. If and when it did occur, I was quick to nip it before it became problematic.
And yes, we all have a voice. It’s fabulous that we all get to make a difference.Izzie Anderton recently posted…The Blog Spot

It’s an exciting time. As someone on the panel said, the reason there is so much fallout is that we are going through something completely new. Women have voices like they’ve never had, and of course it’s going to be unsettling, exciting, and controversial. Ultimately, it will be the individuals (men and women) who use their voices consistently and with respect who will achieve the most for women going forward.

I think by and large I agree with your post. I think we can be attractive without messing with the cause, but I also think that if the media want to talk about the attractiveness of a woman, they shouldn’t be doing it in the context of a more important issue that that woman is in the papers for in the first place. I always find the best way of seeing whether something is a feminist issue is to imagine an article or piece and swap the womans name for a mans. If it holds up ok, then great, if not….it is a feminist issue.
I consider myself a feminist now. I’m a passive feminist. I talk within my immediate group of friends and family and slightly wider via my blog. However, I am grateful for those scary feminist. The ones that put their balls on the line to make a point and raise important issues. Something I could never do. They will have an impact, create a story, raise a debate far quicker than I could. I’m using a much queiter slowly, slowly approach.
We need both sorts.
And if a scary feminist has a go at you, brush it off. They are so hooked up at being angry about stuff on our behalf it’s often difficult to see the wood for the trees. Taking the higher road and know that you are still doing good out there, you’re just doing it differently.the40yearold recently posted…I’ve Judged You

Fair enough, although I do think that the way a female celebrity looks is used deliberately to draw attention to a campaign very often. Angelina Jolie is a case in point, and I suspect there are articles that refer to Brad Pitt’s looks when he has a serious point to make too. So I still think it’s fine to draw attention to it in the media.

That said, where derogatory remarks are made about a woman (or a man, and it does happen) because of how she looks, that is wrong, and has to change. The trouble is, it’s like schoolyard bullying: the most effective way to stop it is to ignore it, not fan the flames with tit for tat commentary.

There are women in public life who have taken unspeakable flack – Oprah Winfrey, Hillary Clinton – and have enhanced their profiles because of the quiet, incisive manner in which they have stuck to their purpose, and ignored it all. That kind of approach wins every time, for me.

Great post 🙂 people tend to be surprised that I was once head of internal audit and risk management for a FTSE100 plc before I left the rat race and set up my own business.

In my years in corporate finance I never really let the thought that I was female affect my career choices and I never felt it had an effect on my promotions, I was often promoted over the opposite sex mainly because I was just bloody good at my job and driven by doing well.

Of course I’m also female and I like pretty dresses, flowers, beautiful nails and dressing my kids in pretty clothes. I find it lovely when people hold a door open for me, offer me a seat or stand as I leave the table. I don’t class it as anything except good manners really. In the same way I teach both my kids to open doors and offer seats to people.

I guess for me it’s not about whether somebody is male or female, it’s just about doing your best at whatever you choose and being polite and considerate to other people. I don’t label myself as a feminist, maybe a better word would be an equalitist?Dawnie Brown recently posted…Mixed Mushroom Stroganoff Recipe

*Applauds* I have often felt the need to explain my history and the levels I reached in my career, to both men and women who have judged me based on their own presumptions about what they see me doing now. I shouldn’t have had to. Not once did I miss out on a promotion to a man who wasn’t better than me for the job.

But I have been dismissed by both women and men for what they think my current focus in life says about me. I cannot fathom why other women don’t take time to listen to what hey hear, rather than what they think they see. Having a huge job in my past doesn’t make me any better than someone who has never worked or earned a salary.

I think Alison’s point a while back about being proud of the the tag Mummy Blogger says it all. It doesn’t matter what you’re called. It matters what you do.

I wasn’t at Britmums, but I applaud your post. If there’s one thing I want to print out and have in bold across the front of my house, it’s ‘your voice is relevant to someone’.
I find feminism a complicated concept and I’m with Annie on much of what she says around this. I just want equality, for me and for my daughter. I have found that the biggest criticisms I’ve ever experienced have actually been from other women. If it’s not articulated, it’s implied.
I’m not a shouter, I simply try my best to be the best I can. I would hope that most people live by this, but I’m not sure this is true. But it won’t stop me trying.Iona recently posted…Silent Sunday

I really do agree with you wholeheartedly, and also The Boy and Me. I wrote a post a while ago entitled ‘Pink is for girls’ and commented (not as eloquently as you!) on the issue I have with thre presumption that being girly and successful are somehow mutually exclusive and that actually, telling little girls (and their mothers) that they shouldn’t like something is inherently wrong. We don’t tell boys that their favourite colour shouldn’t be blue… (Taking colours as a very simple metaphor for everything, how girly of me..). I am a qualified engineer and project manager, I left a very senior role in one of the largest global construction consultancies when we moved to the US. I love crafting and baking with the kids… I never, in almost twenty years in the construction industry felt that I was being marginalised for being female, maybe I was lucky, but really I was just good at my job and respected as such. And I wore dresses. I hope that doesn’t sound flippant, because I truly hope that my daughter will grow up in to a world where this debate is no longer necessary. There are many wonderful woman doing amazing things, just as there are many men doing wonderful things. We all deserve the opportunity to be the best we can be. Feminism is equality. It is sad that the word has come to mean different things. Sorry, this has become the longest comment ever!Sara ( recently posted…Ordinary Moments: imaginary sandwiches

Well put Helen, I really can’t add to what you say here. I’m afraid I walked out of the session on Friday just before you spoke as it just wasn’t registering with me, the form of feminism you express here however is one I can associate with.Coombemill recently posted…Silent Sunday / Project 52

Fab post! I was applauding you during the session. I’m all for equality for ALL. I don’t want my daughter to be discriminated against, nor my son. I do feel like there’s a elitist attitude adopted by some feminists – that somehow THEIR strain of “feminism” is better than anyone else’s? There seems to be an element of what I call “intelligence-snobbery” about it all which makes me really uncomfortable and I think it undermines what we’re all striving for. The irony that some feminists are actually the biggest barrier to feminism makes me sad.Katy Hill recently posted…#winning!

I want to say sorry because I think the nerves overwhelmed me when I asked my question and it came out wrong. Your advice to ignore the pile ons that can happen was definitely valid (you didn’t get a chance to finish speaking) and something I’ve been doing quite successfully. It’s the female aggression that happens between women that leaves me so uneasy. We all make different choices, have varying opinions and I think we all need to be accepting of that. Now the fact (not sure that is the right word) that some of the choices we are faced with are shaped by patriarchy and misogyny is wrong.
I believe in equality for all – I want to live in a world where this is true and unfortunately it just isn’t…
Similarly to you the 2 managers I’ve had problems with have been female yet I’ve also been managed by women & men who have inspired me.
I hope I haven’t rambled…
You rocked the tiara with your lovely red necklace & jumpsuit x

Your question was fine Beth, and it’s reflective of why so many women find raising their voices difficult. I find it distressing that there are such huge numbers of women who don’t feel able to speak up, not because of what men will think, but because of the fear of other women! As I said on Friday, girls do this on the playground aged 9, but some of them never move on to a more considered style. The only thing to do in these cases is to step away, disengage, and keep doing what you know you’re doing well. Of course there are individuals you can’t ignore, and that’s when I think you have to take it offline and tackle it privately.

But please never be afraid to have your say – that’s the wonderful thing about current society, and specifically about blogging. Everyone has a right to a voice, and those who speak up will shape things for the future.

I think you’ve said exactly what I’ve tried to say on my blog and to friends over maybe the last ten years or so. Only rather better and more eloquently 🙂 Yes. I agree with you. Yes.Merry recently posted…For Freddie. #EveryNewborn

The word feminism actually scares me a bit because i’m not entirely sure what it even means. And by that i mean i am scared of putting my foot in it, as demonstrated by above comments but that in itself doesn’t seem very feminist either. It shouldn’t be a scary word and it shouldn’t have so many connotations. I loved your post and thoughts Helen 🙂
p.s lovely to say hi yesterday too xxxKatie recently posted…Piles of stuff and boxes of crap

Great post – I loved that you kept your tiara on during the debate, and the points you made then, and now. To be honest, I was really disappointed with the keynote speech and would have loved to had heard more from you on the whole feminist topic and in general. So much more approachable, relatable and life-affirming… Thank you! xJude recently posted…What I REALLY thought about BritMumsLive

Well said Helen.
I agree that you can have an intelligent opinon and articulate yourself well even if you happen to have a tiara on your head!
I know that some people think what’s that all about then? and that wearing tiaras was somehow silly or pointless but I saw wearing the tiara as all part of the fun of joining in!
Marilyn Monroe once said “Always act like you are wearing an invisible crown” – the quote is about valuing yourself and empowerment. Not settling.
As far as I am concerned, there’s nothing wrong in having a crown/tiara that is not invisible!
I did just that 8 years ago when I wore my tiara to present a radio show! I tried to show you by putting the link to the article here but your blog said I had too many URLs in the post! Just search Google for BBC Radio Leeds Nadine Hill tiara and you will see me in mine!
A great post Helen and wow- you’ve had a lot of comments! Keep it up girl!!xJuggleMum Nadine Hill recently posted…An Award Winning Blog

I was not at Britmums this year so couldn’t hear what all the panel said. I love your post and agree with what you said. I don’t know if i am a feminist or not i just believe in people rights and the fact that a person needs to be respected and supported for what that person wants to be being a woman, men, bisexual, transsexual or homosexual. That doesn’t matter…..otilia recently posted…#FridayFoodie Dessert Round-Up + linky

I have no qualm calling myself a feminist in that I personally define that as meaning gender equality. I think sexism and sexual harassment still affects many women even in the UK and US. I find it shocking that – as highlighted by the UN report and One Billion Rising – on average one in three women globally are beaten or raped in their lifetime. I find it disheartening that high profile women like Yahoo!’s Marissa Mayer or the singer Kate Perry publicly say they’re not feminists because they view it as a bad word or a militant man-hater. I thought the project last year where students (both genders) from universities in UK such as Cambridge and Anglia Ruskin – as well as in the US – wrote individual placards answering the question “why do we need feminism…” was brilliant.
I also personally will never forget the positive vibe and dynamism of women when as a journalist I covered the UN Women’s Conference in Beijing in 1995, including a sit down one on one interview with Benazir Bhutto, then the PM of Pakistan. Women such as Aung San Suu Kyi and NGO groups from around the world were there to push for equality and more opportunities for women.Kriss MacDonald recently posted…The week that was in photos – 25 + 24

This is exactly why I think feminism needs a rebrand Kriss – for high profile (or otherwise) women to feel they need to opt out, something is very wrong with the image feminism has taken on. Thank you for sharing your experiences – it’s an inspiration xHelen recently posted…Expressions #12: Let it go for #BritMumsLive

What a person looks or sounds like is irrelevant, it’s what they represent or how they live their life , warts and all, that is important .
I’ve spent a lot of time in recent years battling with those in ”authority” who don’t understand, or want to understand, the everyday problems of those with disabilities . It never eases to amaze me how those in local government belittle and try to discredit those who try to put their point across when you’re a disabled woman with white hair !! Even little old ladies DO have things to say which ARE relevant and represents the views of large numbers in society . Never be afraid to stand up and voice your views even though you might say something controversial and get crapped on from a great height ! It’s called free speech .

Hear Hear! I can only begin to imagine how frustrating it is Sandra, and yet sadly I know it’s coming one day for me too. A young man on a telesales call recently called me luvvie as he tried to sell me his wares. After a while I was so incensed that I told him to stop – I am neither 7 nor 70, I said. But actually, even that was wrong – it’s disrespectful and patronising, whatever your age is!
Oh goodness I am going to have so much fun telling people what I think when I’m a little old lady! As you say, it’s not just about women’s voices, it’s all those who are judged because of what they are, rather than who they are and what they do.
Thanks for commenting.

I loved reading this and hearing you speak at the event. I really think, in light of some of the other things I heard over the weekend which were perhaps a little demeaning to our sex, that this and you are wonderful. Exactly the type of blogger and woman I want to hear about. So thank you! xPottyMouthedMummy recently posted…The Newbie Class: Part 1

Absolutely love this post and first can i say that you do not need to say sorry – you spoke with relevance, clarity and sanity. Not everyone does on this subject and nor did they at the weekend.
I totally relate to what you said about not having the confidence to join the debate. I have written and not released a post again after this year’s britmums (as I did last year) about the fact that whatever feminism is – it’s sticking together and that means not only saying the right thing, but doing it. Sadly whilst some of the bloggers absolutely do that I’m going to controversially say that not everyone does.
Maybe I will write that post! lol

Feminism is unique to each female.
Well said you !
I am not a feminist because I got my nails down before the conference , I was trying to channel my inner girly for one moment.
Angelia Jolie rocks in every sense of the word as did Audrey Hepburn.
I upset some folk on this issue before but you know what if folk can’t take me for who I am then bandannas I mean bananas.ninjacat recently posted…Speech is a doorway

Helen, you might not have elaborated your point on feminism to this degree on stage, however what you did say, you said eloquently and to the point.
Unfortunately we live in an image led society, where what you look like is more important than what you say. From recent research I’ve read, this is increasingly affecting men as well. You are right: how we counter it is by using our voices to promote equality irrespective of gender, race or any other discriminating factors.

We need to celebrate (maybe debate) our differences, but not rip each other apart on it… well maybe just rip the extremists apart, who are hurting people.

Ahaha Monika, it’s just practice. That’s what my job taught me how to do 🙂
You’re right, men are being judged on appearances too – look at Boris! How everyone handles that is what dictates whether we’re viewed as a success or not. Thanks so much for your comment.

There is a massive difference between women supporting other women and women never, ever challenging another woman for fear of being ‘rude’. It absolutely okay to challenge a woman who has written a post which ignores the reality of the lives of the vast majority of women who aren’t middle class, well-educated and white. It’s not rude to point out that Black women are grossly under-represented in every field because of structural racism and misogyny. It’s okay to point out that white middle class women who have 3 children are ‘good mothers’ whilst a Black woman in a low-income job with three kids would be treated as shit in the media.

Confusing kindness with never holding a woman accountable for expressing opinions which actively harm other women is not acceptable. It’s not mean or rude or aggressive to point it out. Feminism is about helping ALL women – not just individuals.

Thank you Actually Mummy! Everyone has a voice whether they blog to thousands or just a few. I was struggling this morning with how I feel about my ‘voice’. Mummy blogger, feminist, journalist or simply just writing for yourself…..you have got it bang on when you say that whatever the voice, it’s important.Margot Tries the Good Life recently posted…Ticking off the list

I think you are very correct wanting equal opportunities and rights for everyone, but that not all people are equal and want the same things, a very valid point. Wearing your Tiara on stage was fabulous! However throughout the speeches I heard the other panel members talk a lot about the injustice to women in the work field, and I kept wondering about the injustice to woman in day to day life? Where woman are expected to and have a perfect career with a good income, be a perfect parent and meanwhile serve the husband. I don\’t know at all how to formulate my opinion correctly, nor do I know where to start, but I keep wondering if the blogging community can rise for a better cause and support one another?

I have recently started a new blog to blog about the behind the scenes or our more happy and family friendly blog. the post selected by RSS feed is the basically the questions I had after the Female Voices in the Media panel.Niki recently posted…I made it to #Britmums: where all the strong women were (1/2)

Gosh Niki, I would so love for parent bloggers to galvanise and make this change happen. We live in such a different society to that of 50 years ago, as Eleanor Mills said, and we are just finding our way at the moment.

I personally have a “thing” about feminism. I steered clear of the word for a very long time because I didn’t recognise myself within it. Until my sister one day pointed out that I had my “own brand of feminism” which was her way of showing me that feminism is one single viewpoint, but can be interpreted in many ways. And for me that is what had happened – I had been scared by the strong feminist voices that scared me with how strict they were in their viewpoints because I thought that if I didn’t agree I couldn’t possibly be a feminist. I hope that makes some kind of sense… what I’m trying to say is that I really enjoyed hearing your vision during that debate because she really complimented and balanced out the discussion by providing a different view to some of the others, yet finding common ground which pulled you all together.

I’ve never really understood how “equality” has been interpreted to mean that men and women should do the exact same things. I always thought equality meant that everybody (regardless of gender or any other factor) has the same opportunities, but that this didn’t mean they had to want to take them up. I think expecting the same number of women as men to be in the workplace at the same level ignores the fact that some women want to stay home while their children are young etc, like it is invalidating their choice to do that. Again, I’m not sure if I am making any sense because I do find this a very difficult topic. But just know that I really enjoyed listening to you on Friday, it started off the whole weekend just perfectly for me! So thank youAmanda recently posted…BritMums Live 2014 – Got Butterflies? Here’s My Essential Guide

Makes total sense Amanda. The pressure to be a board director or a politician is not something that every woman wants or needs. Nor is it for men. And I know so many men who would like to be more flexible around their work/home life arrangements. Doing the dishes doesn’t emasculate a man, just as being city power figure doesn’t guarantee happiness for a woman!

What I would have liked to have seen is some – any – analysis here. Why is Sarah (who is a feminist, not a ‘feminist’) being beasted for writing challenging pieces? Why do prominent women receive hideous, misogynistic hate mail when they do nothing more than appear on television, like Mary Beard? Why are only 4/23 of the cabinet women? Why did only 1 black woman make a film – ANY film, globally, in 2011? Why is domestic violence so prevalent? Why are no women going into STEM subjects? Why is rape used as a military weapon? And so on, and on and on and on and on.
I’m afraid it’s not enough to say that you did well in your chosen field whilst wearing what you wanted. Feminism is about so much more than a meritocracy with choice for everyone. It’s about dismantling the patriachal structures which enable all the examples I quoted above. And men – not all men, etc etc etc – have to take responsibility here for benefiting and perpetuating them. They have to apply peer pressure to challenge their friends and colleagues when they see women being kept down. They need to take active steps to help women feel safe in their presence. They have to not make assumptions about women that they wouldn’t make about men. They need to make structural changes to the workplace, education, selection processes et al which allow all the people you quoted to make it to where you did, as I’m afraid you are the exception, not the rule. And whilst I’m sure you’re an intelligent, hardworking woman, millions of others are too, but can’t achieve equality because of a thousand invisible strands of prejudice and structural hurdles, which pin them to the ground like Gulliver.
This isn’t about being tough on men – many are as much a casualty of the Patriarchy as women, with expectations placed on them to which their personality type isn’t suited and make them miserable. It’s about working for the underclass, to liberate them from a system which they didn’t make and in which they can never win.

This article is just my opnion. I can’t definitively answer all your questions, though I suspect you don’t need me to. Yes, there are many systemic problems that hold women back – and that stop men being able to live the way they want to, as well. I don’t know why there is only one black female film-director, or why only 4 women are in the cabinet. But wilst I know that there is inequality and discrimination out there, I also know that some women just wouldn’t want to do the things you mention here. In the same way that some men don’t. I don’t think it’s constructive to insist that they should want to, either. If they have those ambitions, women should be supported and facilitated to achieve them – I totally agree on that. But not everyone does, and I just wanted to suggest that perhaps that is a factor too.

The campaign against sexual violence in conflict is vital – I don’t think anyone will argue with you there, and yes, the issue is indicative of a global male attitude to women that is despicable. And of course that has to change.

In terms of my experience of the workplace, I don’t think I could have been in a more male-dominated industry, and yet the only discrimination and undermining behaviour I ever experienced was at the hands of a woman. And even then I didn’t let it stop me. I think that says more about me as a person, than it does about me as a woman. As you’ve no doubt seen from some of the comments here, so many women have felt like they shouldn’t step up, and I think we’d do well as a society to facilitate their confidence in doing so. Because in my experience, when they do, and when they are right for the job, they get it. As I said, this is just my experience, and my opinion.

As regards the system, there is a huge need for change. Not so much in attitude, but in the practicality of enabling both women and men to manage a family as well as a career. As a nation we are archaic in our business and employment systems, and until that changes to allow individuals to work more flexibly, and to know that their children are thriving whilst they do so, we will always have this problem.

So I kind of don’t get it now; are there real problems in the world, or not? Your blogpost seems to say that angry ‘feminists’ are wrong to be angry about all the issues Juliet mentioned – violence against women and girls, rape in war, domestic abuse and so on. But it also said you have worked as hard as you can to be a good person. What kind of good person sees these things and is *not* angered by them?

The overall impression here is of you saying “welp, I go mine girls, so stop your grousing: you’re making me look bad”. It’s great that you never faced (or noticed) sexism & discrimination in your career; but to take potshots at women who are fighting to make sure everybody is as lucky as you have been lacks grace and generosity. Not good person behaviour, in my book.

Of course there is a problem. I’m not negating that. And of course people have a right to be angry, and they should be. My issue is how that anger is used, and personally, I feel it could be used more productively.

No, I don’t think that’s true – or at least it’s not coming through in your original post and in the majority of your engagement with the comments.

You specifically say that what you consider a more productive way of using one’s energies is to be the best person you can in order to do well in life and in your career. That’s not an approach that is going to bring benefits to anyone but yourself – especially if you stop along the way to pause and criticise those women who are trying to do something for all women, or at least more than just themselves and their little group, as being too angry, too loud, too unpleasant, too aggressive.

If the suffragettes had been nice & polite, you would not have the right to do well for yourself in your career. If you think high profile feminists today are angry, go back & read what they said about campaigners for women’s votes & education back in the day: harpies, deranged destroyers of family & womanhood who should be imprisoned, force-fed (they were) and medicated (they were). That is the tradition you’ve aligned yourself with in your original post, not the tradition of mad, bad, annoying women who actually do something about the problems in the world.

It’s a shame really; you’re an intelligent woman & it would be good to have those abilities used for something better than self promotion & the parroting of 100-year old anti-woman propaganda.

I specifically said that using your voice intelligently, in whatever way you see fit, will empower you as an individual. Some will use that to further their own careers – which actually will help the cause of women as a whole. Nobody thought there’d be a woman in my position until I was in it, after which a lot of other smart women began to see that as an option for themselves.

Angry and loud is fine. Unpleasant and aggressive is not – in my opinion. I’ll go back to the example of Angeline Jolie. She isn’t rude, she doesn’t antagonise, but she uses what she has to highlight the plight of women, and to win people over to her view. That’s clever feminism – again, in my opinion.

Thank you for getting back to me Helen. I actually think, probably unwittingly, you’ve dismissed a reality that has demoralised, dominated and sometimes even ended the lives of millions of women with a panacea of, ‘Try hard and it’s usually fine.’
I don’t think we’re going to agree but I would urge you to read some of the blogs of women who really get under the skin of this, better than I can and delve into a really useful structural analysis. The New Statesman is well known for hosting some good ones.Juliet Oosthuysen recently posted…Say my name

Hi Juliet. I have read many of the posts you talk about in your comment. And actually, many of those posts hit the nail on the head for me, and I applaud the women stepping up and putting themselves on the line to raise issues. I know that there is more to the issue of feminism than what happens in the workplace. However, I believe that there is a difference between anger and aggression. Anger can be immensely productive; aggression and name-calling is never helpful when you’re trying to make a credible case. Unfortunately I think even intelligent women make this mistake, and lose support, which is a shame, when their campaigns are ultimately sound.

I absolutely agree. The aggression online is appalling. I’ve found myself slipping into it at times as things get heated, but feel, ‘anonymous’. (I’ve made a number of pretty public, grovelling apologies). We should all be able to express ourselves in whatever medium we like, without attracting hatred and insults. Unfortunately, I think that both sexes are guilty of this and I do see a straight line back to The Patriarchy. When a woman speaks out, as Sarah says, she is often shouted down, as being ‘uppity’, or ‘abrasive’ or ‘outspoken’ in a way that men simply aren’t. Due to our heavy socialisation, it’s not unusual to see women turning on other women with, ‘the gobby bitch’, ‘mouthy cow’ accusations because we don’t like, as a society, strong women speaking their minds.Juliet Oosthuysen recently posted…Say my name

You’re right, it is much easier to slip online, but I think when you have a high profile voice, and claim to be supporting a cause, you have a responsibility not to. As soon as you start swearing and ranting, you undermine your credibility, which invites criticism. Plus you frighten off a load of people who might otherwise add their voices to yours, and that’s a shame.
Thank you though, for continuing to add yours to this debate.

I’m so grateful to have scrolled to the bottom of the comments and found a sole voice that has gone a little deeper here. While I understand some women are reticent to use the word feminism, and very few really understand the total whole of the struggle, I was surprised that so few challenged some of the notions put forth in the post and comments. In fact, most of what was written here about the lack of need for xyz (positive discrimination, for example) has showed a woeful lack of appreciation for anything than their own experience. That is to say, most ladies here appear to me to be white, middle class women in their 20s and 30s. I might be wrong about the demographic, but it seems to me there’s a lot of back patting going on here – gosh darn it, why are all these feminists angry- just get on with it instead of complaining and you’ll be just as successful as the menfolk.

Of course, as you pointed out, Juliet, it’s not that simple by a long shot. On a large scale such as the statistics around women in professional fields, politics, the entertainment industry, etc, because women ARE held back institutionally and economically. But also on a smaller level – why do women want get their nails done or shave or wear tiaras? Why do they like men opening doors for them? It’s the constructs of patriarchy that make us want to do that. It’s not free will – we are collaborating with our own oppression. I do it too – I wear make-up, pretty clothes and everything that makes me feel attractive – I collaborate with the need to feel desirable to the opposite sex when I leave the house. Even though I choose my clothes, I did not make that choice without these influences. We need to appreciate that rather than pretend it doesn’t exist.

Yes, I agree. Feminism is being depleted of all meaning. I just read another post on this blog by Stu Heritage saying, ‘It can mean whatever you’re happiest with’. No – it can’t. It means, ‘something.’ And what it should mean is an examination of the constructs that see women treated as lesser beings as men. It’s indisputably true, we don’t need to quote the stats, although I started to in my first post. There is a culture which minimises women as humans and obviously then their contribution to life. Some women escape this, but unfortunately, most don’t. I didn’t look this in the eye for years, but I think once you start reading, and opening your eyes, you swallow the red matrix pill, and that’s that….Juliet Oosthuysen recently posted…Say my name

I just said icon. She has a very high profile. I didn’t say anything about her ability or any of her personal traits. So far she hasn’t said or done anything hurtful or derogatory to me. Therefore I will stay out of any judgement for the time being.

‘So far she hasn’t said or done anything hurtful or derogatory to ME’ and that my love is why you will never be a feminist ME ME ME the inability to see the damage down to other women. Selfish. self centred and arrogant.

…. Because jumping on another woman, who has eloquently and respectfully said she’s staying out of judging another woman is exactly what feminism is all about, right?! How about we all just try and be decent human beings.Steph ( recently posted…Giveaway – Canvas Print From Your Image 2 Canvas

I think you’ve massively missed tfk’s point. You can’t proclaim yourself to be a feminist and then only care about yourself. Feminism is a movement and a struggle for women, not the individual. Not all women are to be celebrated, so by saying ‘oh she hasn’t done anything to me’ suggests that you don’t care what they are doing to negatively affect other women, society and/or the movement itself, and that you only care for yourself and life from your own perspective. Some people are going to feel negatively about that…

I get that Claire, but I’m not going to condemn someone based on what another person tells me about them. I’d rather wait, follow, engage, and make my own judgements about Bryony. I have no idea who she’s offended, because I haven’t followed her before now. But she is an icon – she has made a name for herself. She may be an icon that some people dislike, and that’s fine. I’ll decide for myself.

I would describe myself as a feminist. If the word feminist means that I believe that women are equal to men. And, like you say, that women should be judged as people and not as anything else. I do believe that cans of worms are opened with the word ‘feminist’ – I have experienced this. My humble opinion is that women ‘PEOPLE’ should be able to do whatever they want with their lives and not be held back by their gender. If I want to be a student, and a Mum and a wife, have a job and wear pink or blue or put a pair of knickers on my head, then I can. As can every woman. Or not. Whichever. And I definitely won’t be judging!
Thought provoking post xKerrie McGiveron recently posted…Do What You Like. Be Yourself. Write For Yourself.

I believe in equality for all, men and women alike and with Wimbledon starting today this topic will be spoken about a lot as the female competitors will earn less per match at Wimbledon than the men.
I however do feel that if I want to be equal to a male in the workplace I should do equal work (partly why I believe the Wimbledon pay structure is correct – less sets to win a match less pay) I don’t agree that it’s okay for a working mom to be allowed time off to be with an I’ll child then a man get frowned upon if he makes the same request.
Also I don’t think you can be a feminist and moan about being ogled by men then think the diet coke ads are okay!
Sorry for the waffled comment and sorry if it doesn’t make senseTammy recently posted…On my way to Brit mums live – a mini post!

Ah Tammy, I get where you’re coming from, and actually, that’s my take on Wimbledon too. More entertainment = more demand for tickets = more income = more available pay. It’s not discrimination, it’s a fact of life. The women involved may not like it, but they could earn more than a man in a different work arena. It’s their choice. No doubt someone will come and correct me on this, but it’s fact for me.
I’d take a guess that most feminists – including the ones I struggle with, don’t like diet Coke ads any more than they like page 3. I hope so, anyway.
Thanks for your comment.

Gutted I missed this, I always shy away from feminism as I find the ones with the loudest voices on the issue are very far over in the feminism spectrum. Well done for having your say and keeping the tiara firmly in place.Kizzy recently posted…Reviews – Love or loathe? #NaBloPoMo

Gah! Kizzy, this is exactly what made me write this! It makes me so cross that so many good people, good women are discouraged from joining the debate and supporting the cause, supporting women, because of fear of backlash. To be fair to most of the commenters to day, they have been strongly opinionated, but largely respectful, and I welcome that. God knows we have to argue to get anything done! But to feel afraid to get involved because of the worry about backlash is just such a sad thing. It’s only now I’m brave enough to add my voice, and strong enough to ignore the stupid and unhelpful comments that do nothing to help women in general.
Thank you so much for commenting, and I do hope you will feel able to get involved at some point.

I think it was Sunday evening when I read this post for the first time. I’d spent the WHOLE day in the sun, OFF social media, surrounded in LOVE, with my nieces, son, and brother in law. Upon arriving home, I wanted to dip my toe in the BritMumsLive water and stumbled on this post. Reading it raised so many feelings, both from BML and from the Mumsnet Blogfest seminar, which was the start of this Feminist debacle (for me anyhow – I know you (Helen) had the whole Lush/pink thang way before that). Basically reading this post made me cry, but what raised my spirits was how beautiful ALL of the comments were. I have revisited quite a few times, to read new comments, as this is a subject close to my hear, for a whole host of reasons. Today I had time to kill on a long coach journey and came across the recent wave of comments. When I start to hear that the comments I had considered beautiful are merely white middle class ladies back slapping each other, I get considerably sad. When I then read that we are “collaborating with our own oppression” I just want to hide under a duvet and stay there for a week. Claire you do not speak for me, when you speak on behalf of women, to say that.

You know ladies, (the ones who say we shouldn’t just be concerned with ME), you seem to think we should take on the battles of our whole gender. Sorry, I cannot. You same ladies use the word “struggle” a lot…. can’t you see the irony there? Men class our PMS, and all our baggage as struggle enough, without US ourselves, calling our campaign in itself a struggle….. Have you not heard of positive affirmations. Like when you want to clear your debt, you project PROSPERITY… you do NOT focus on the debt. You do not focus on what is going wrong, you do not focus on the scarcity, you do not focus on the struggle. Have you also not heard of “be the change you want to see in the world”. If we started with ourselves, and were NICE to each other……. we’d come a whole lot further. Maybe EVERYONE needs to see the Good Enough Mums Club musical. There are so many strong messages in there, sung and danced by strong women, who don’t feel the need to academically throw the book at other people.

BTW I don’t feel that the girls on the panel did that to Helen… I have my own views about what was going on there, but I do think it is recently starting to raise its ugly head in these threads. Out jargonning people because you have 8 shelves of Feminist books and know how to say words like subjugation and self abnegating doesn’t make you right. LOVE is what makes the world go round, and ironically speaking of round, circular energy is OUR terrain, as women, and we do NOT have the monopoly on it. Just like men can embrace FEMININE energy to be top chefs and top hairdressers, so too can women access MALE energy to be scientists, engineers and forklift drivers. You do know right that both women and men BOTH contain both aspects of the gender, and it doesn’t do either any good when we focus on one, at the expense of the other. As with food, all things in moderation. So I am not going to give up my femininity to be a card carrying Feminist. I am going to BE the change I want to see in the world. THAT instead of bashing each other with terminology, is what will see us get ahead. Men are attracted to us (God forbid?) when we are grounded, centred and P/OSITIVE, not focussing on a struggle…. Perhaps less people would be trolled if they were comfortable in their own skin?

I know some of you recent commenters may think how does someone in London, emanating positive energy help someone in a 3rd world country thousands of miles away, who would benefit from us fighting the struggle, but negative thoughts and always looking at what is wrong with the world, instead of what’s right, simply pollutes the consciousness that we all share. My comment is already too long, but people on my wavelength will already intuit what I am trying (badly) to say, like some did when I shouted my choice words about boobs from the balcony of Blogfest (yes that was me) and no I do not regret it, but I do regret the aftermath which shook me up for weeks. Just like Helen’s only “struggle” in her career came from a fellow women, it was women who shook me, post conference. It’s not entirely necessary. There was a beautiful blogger, on the F side of the debate that time, who made her points eloquently without making others feel inferior. I think it’s a skill we all need to practice.

There is a massive difference between women supporting other women and women never, ever challenging another woman for fear of being ‘rude’. It absolutely okay to challenge a woman who has written a post which ignores the reality of the lives of the vast majority of women who aren’t middle class, well-educated and white. It’s not rude to point out that Black women are grossly under-represented in every field because of structural racism and misogyny. It’s okay to point out that white middle class women who have 3 children are ‘good mothers’ whilst a Black woman in a low-income job with three kids would be treated as shit in the media.

Confusing kindness with never holding a woman accountable for expressing opinions which actively harm other women is not acceptable. It’s not mean or rude or aggressive to point it out. Feminism is about helping ALL women – not just individuals.

There is a massive difference between women supporting other women and women never, ever challenging another woman for fear of being ‘rude’. It absolutely okay to challenge a woman who has written a post which ignores the reality of the lives of the vast majority of women who aren’t middle class, well-educated and white. It’s not rude to point out that Black women are grossly under-represented in every field because of structural racism and misogyny. It’s okay to point out that white middle class women who have 3 children are ‘good mothers’ whilst a Black woman in a low-income job with three kids would be treated as shit in the media.

Confusing kindness with never holding a woman accountable for expressing opinions which actively harm other women is not acceptable. It’s not mean or rude or aggressive to point it out. Feminism is about helping ALL women – not just individuals.

(I tried posting this from my phone but it looks like it’s posted in the wrong place)

Call me psychic or intuitive but I am just throwing a guess out there that you yourself Louise may be “middle class, well-educated and white” – Hhhhhmmm why do you have an issue with that?
I don’t, which is why my son is half Nigerian. Have you actually ever been to Africa?
Please don’t raise the race card here, when it is wholly unwarranted…….. and irrelevant.
What is as you say “mean or rude or aggressive ” is some of the things I have seen written above, in recent comments.Liska recently posted…Discovered This Morning That I am a Morning Person – Who Knew?

Yep, I’m white and middle class and well educated and I know that my options have been greater since birth because I was born white to a middle class family with access to a good education. Suggesting that race doesn’t limit women’s options is an asinine position to take and one which flies in the face of several hundreds of years of history.

Sorry but I don’t feel the need to compensate or be apologetic for being white, middle classed or educated. My friends, peers and relatives many of whom are of colour, from several continents, are more enriched physically, mentally, spiritually and financially than the white people I know. A child in Africa often experiences more joy with one toy than our children do with 30. Women in Africa often do not get PND or such things, because they adhere to the old adage “it takes a village to raise a child”. It’s never worked out well when I have fought other people’s battles for them, so whilst I will battle against discrimination and obliterate it from the elements of my life I can control, I will not apologise for my sex, colour, creed, nationality, class or standing. Too many people think women for example are made to cover up, yet I know many hijab/turban wearing women, none of whom have been asked to don it by a man. It’s sometimes best to battle the things you experience and can understand and not those you don’tLiska recently posted…Discovered This Morning That I am a Morning Person – Who Knew?

sorry but that is nonsense. Have you ever been to Africa? I can’t speak for the entire continent, but I will speak from my experience visiting Kenya – the women aren’t getting PND because they are DYING in childbirth. They aren’t getting PND because they are being ‘married’ (ie raped) when they are 13 years old. They are bearing several children before they are in their twenties, and if they survive that, they are very lucky.

It is not about being apologetic for being middle-class, but about looking beyond your front door and seeing that not everyone is so lucky.

If you have been to Africa, why are you spouting nonsense about children there being happy with just one toy?

I am sorry, but this makes me so angry. I saw a child whose head was swollen with encephalitis, he was very ill but his mother couldn’t afford to take him to the doctor. I met young girls who stopped going to school when they started menstruating because they would then be seen as ‘sexually ripe’ and be at risk of rape. I met women who lost their babies in a hospital that had been found to have been selling children. A hospital that the taxi driver told us that he wouldn’t take his wife to because of that and other previous scandals.

How can you perpetuate the myth of the happy African children, who just need one toy? And women not having PND. They don’t have PND because they are DYING in childbirth. They don’t have PND because they are too busy fighting HIV and TB.

You don’t have to go to Africa to see this, it is reported daily in the media, if you take a look.

I didn’t answer it because your assumption of Black -women = living in Africa is crass and completely lacking in understanding that, oddly, Black people happen to live all over the world. Not just in Africa.

No, what IS crass is someone upthread taking the time and effort to assume that EVERYONE on this thread was white + middle class + educated (thanks for the compliment in the latter, as it is never a word I feel when talking to you guys). Sorry but I have no time for people who live in homogeneous places, yet escape to other worlds via their bookshelves and campaigns. The only thing white about me is my skin, and I say again, I am not going to apologise for it. I will change the world via the means I have at my disposal and not adhere to a prescription of what being good looks like to you. Still have NO idea how colour was brought into this. It was a way of putting down, the ladies on this thread, in a cheap misguided way, that lacked grace, thought and compassion, yet we are expected to feel those for women all over the world who desperately need our help. How about charity begins at home, get good at it, and then branch outLiska recently posted…Discovered This Morning That I am a Morning Person – Who Knew?

I was the one that said it and I stand by it. I read and looked at each and every comment and many of the blogs of the women commenting to get an idea of what I was wading into because I wasn’t at BML. It wasn’t said to make anyone feel bad for being white, no, it was said because everyone was talking about themselves and their own experiences. My comment was intended to serve as a reminder that when a majority of people in a thread are of the same socio-economic racial and sexuality background, and only talk about their own experience, it’s not enough to say: oh I was never bullied in the workplace or discriminated against, as this diminishes the experience of women who don’t fit that profile. What you have then gone on to do is take it to a whole other place of defensiveness and tried to legitimise it by saying, for example, black women in Africa are fine because they don’t get PND or we’re not understanding that muslim women wearing a burka have made that choice freely, showing a depressing lack of understanding of the reality of what those ‘choices’ are for these women. Race and class and sexuality are absolutely vital parts of the discussion of feminism – they intersect and it makes a huge difference to these women to be part of the discourse.

Claire there isn’t a reply button under your comment so this will appear in the wrong place – sorry. I totally “get” every word of your recent comment. BUT, if your words jumbled my brain enough that I started to talk gobble-de-gook, and be defensive, even though I am on a thread which is 95% voicing opinions I can agree with and own, then how in the name of God would those minorities you speak of, even have the courage to come on here at all. So I guess what I am saying in a round about way is, you lose your campaign, and any support for it, if you have to label people in order to elevate it. I don’t appreciate being told who we all are. Oh and by the way, when we voice opinions, we don’t have to cover EVERY area of the debate. What is so very wrong with voicing opinions from a personal standpoint. THAT is the place we start from, and we can’t all take on the world. Even when we do, there isn’t room to include bragging rights in each and every conversation – again I am saying something that doesn’t 100% reflect my position, but you’ve taken me so far away from the debate I can’t even articulate myself anymoreLiska recently posted…Discovered This Morning That I am a Morning Person – Who Knew?

Well you’ve made my exact point. If everyone is agreeing and talking about their own experiences without opening up to the possibility that there’s more beyond their own, no one with a different experience is going to come along and add to the discussion. You’ve already excluded them.

If you think my comment about asking people to think beyond their own lives and experiences and understand the intersection of class, race and sexuality in the feminism debate is the one scaring them off instead, I emphatically disagree. But we can leave it at that. You (and others) appear to have taken my comment as an attack – I was not attacking anyone, merely trying to show another point of view. Aside from one comment from tfk, which could have been worded more politely, but was in no way that bad, the comments disagreeing have been fair, clear, polite and to the point. If this level of discussion and debate is what puts women off feminism, I’m sadly disappointed. We have to be able to have strong reasoned debate on these issues and, when putting forth controversial ideas, we should not interpret strong responses and articulate disagreement as personal attack.

I can’t tell if you mean that comment genuinely or not Liska because I have actually never read a comment as so stupid as “women in Africa don’t get PND”. Firstly, Africa is a continent – not a country and the lives of women differ greatly from Egypt to Nigeria to Sierra Leone to Rwanda and to the Democratic Republic of Congo. Parts of Africa have vast wealth and others are war zones. 48 women are raped every hour in the DRC. They are raped to force pregnancy and they are raped to cause miscarriages. 6 month old babies are raped – as 65 year old women.

Many women have no access to clean water and the maternal and infant mortality rate in such areas is astronomical. Do you seriously believe a mother whose infant dies at birth from a preventable disease won’t have PND? Or, a 12 year old girl sold, raped and forced to give birth to a stillborn child won;t develop PND? Or, a mother who gives birth prematurely having seen her whole family slaughtered? Or, a child raped by a family member who gives birth in private desperate to hide the baby lest they kicked out of their community? You don’t think these women will develop PND? Or, that women living in wealthy families are somehow exempt because they live in “Africa”?

What about young girls who have experienced FGM which, at its most severe stage, inhibits the bodies ability to urinate and menstruate. Do you think these girls, who have to be cut open to have sex or deliver a child, are somehow magically exempt from PND because they live in Africa?

not being at BML I have totally missed this and a whole load of other stuff BUT I have read your post and I think it is very wise and I also enjoyed reading what TBaM said in her comment as that seemed to make sense to me too. I like common sense ideas and your post above , your apology which i dont think you needed to write, is just that.
here is what I think:
I dont really get into all this feminism crap to be honest. why do we have to be feminists to show how strong and independant we are as women ?? I think the term is a bit old hat now actually. I am me, a women, now a mum and a friend to other women and a blogger. We are all different and interpret things in different ways so why do we all have to be lumped together under the title of feminism??
Lets just be women – good or bad ones we are all women and we should be proud of all ourselves for the hard work we do in our lives whether that be as mums, career women or both and why cant we support one another without being bitchy or judgemental??
This makes no sense – this is why I will never be up on a stage addressing people lol xxxxjenny paulin recently posted…Brazilian Footballs BBQ Kebabs

Just a note, I’m not a feminist to show how strong and independent I am as a woman. Feminism isn’t like a Brownies badge, you don’t just wear it like a label to prove how awesome you are (well, some people do of course, there’s always someone).

Feminism is a political theory, one which underlies a social movement (I should probably say many social movements) that seeks to establish equality between the sexes and access to full human rights for all women globally. Don’t like it? Don’t think it’s important? Don’t believe there is inequality or injustice? Fine. Don’t call yourself a feminist. We’re not selling anything here: if all you can offer the movement is a shiny badge of how strong and independent you are, you’re quite welcome to sit this one out. Not sure what your contribution would be, anyway.

We had a similar discussion after last year’s Blogfest, and I will say now what I said then.

Feminism isn’t a dirty word, it is a movement that has brought great advances to women around the world. As someone said upthread, without the suffragettes, our lives today would be very different.

I have a problem with the expression that ‘feminism is all about choice’ as that gives people the impression that they are free to make whatever choice they wish to make. This is however an illusion. We are all limited by the society in which we live. Here in UK we have more choice, but you only have to look at Saudi Arabia or Afghanistan to see how women live when there is no feminism, and no choice.

If I make the choice to become a politician, I will face obstacles put in my way by our society.

“It cannot be right that there are more male MPs in the House of Commons today than the total number of women MPs ever elected,” MP Gloria De Piero recently said in the Guardian.

We have to distinguish between personal choice, and the choices available to women as a whole. It is disheartening to see so many women on this thread say ‘I haven’t been on the receiving end of discrimination’, as if that evens out the millions of women who’ve been denied a job because of their gender, or as a combination of their gender, and their skin colour.

The choices that my daughter has as a white middle-class girl are very different from the choices of a black, working-class girl from a bad neighbourhood in London. This isn’t playing a ‘race card’, it is facing facts. That young black girl will have to work twice as hard as my daughter, and three times as hard as my son to get to the same position in life.

I think that we need both kinds of feminists, and we can be both types at different times. Mostly I am a positive, change things slowly, inspire girls kind of feminist, but sometimes I am a bit angry and ranty, because there is so much damage being done to girls AND BOYS by our society. Girls who are teased for being a tomboy, and boys who are bullied for being a sissy, if they show emotion.

Refusing to see this, and going through life blinkered, in an ‘I’m all right, Jack’, fashion is really quite insulting to all the women who’ve fought to get us to this relatively privileged point in the history of feminism in UK.

We seem destined to disagree which makes me sad, as you are ALWAYS the most composed of the ranty lot Lynn lie you were last time too. I am related to 3 of “black, working-class girl from a bad neighbourhood in London”. They have ALL done very well for themselves career wise, property wise and in and of themselves, which again takes me back to my point upthread as you call it: “be the change you want to see in the world”. I did however go to a Graduate Interview at Selfridges with an A-level black peer/close friend of mine, and whereas I had a 45 minute interview followed by a computer psychometric test, she was told her “name’s not on the list”, until she leaned over the desk and pointed it out, and was then given a going through the motions 10 minute interview with no computer test. I did speak to them about it and years later was delighted to see black Department heads. I don’t know… I guess we’d probably agree on a lot if we had a coffee, but online, it always seems to come down to (not you but t’others) academic bashing, and people wanting to discuss what’s wrong in the world instead of what’s right. And by the way, I think when women got the right to vote, and the right to work, they also gave up A LOT, AND it also meant they went from having one role, to five, which is why we’re all often so God damned tired all the time. It was progression that came at a cost, which is why so many women are now running around with knitting needles and cupcakes trying to fill the gap xLiska recently posted…Discovered This Morning That I am a Morning Person – Who Knew?

Don’t you see though, that the only reason that your friend was able to reach across the table and demand equal treatment is because of the years of fighting on her behalf? By women and men who would not stand for racist and sexist treatment. You are erasing the years of work done by angry people – and they HAD to be angry, they had to be loud, they had to be heard.

The laws we have now to protect women like your friend were brought in against the will of the establishment.

I agree with ‘be the change you want to see’ but lets be honest, it is a lot easier for me to say that than your friend who had to fight that little bit harder to get where she is today.

See, again I have to disagree. I didn’t reply last night, as I wasn’t angry enough to at that time of night, as there are no put downs in your comment. Thank you.

I believe she was able to reach across the table and demand equal treatment because she had strong role models in her African mother and father, who would expect no less of her. I believe the respect and confidence they endowed on her at home was mirrored and echoed by what she experienced in our Catholic secondary school, at which there was no discrimination whatsoever, as ethnic minorities were in large, not small numbers, due to a wave of immigration from the commonwealth. She’d never had any reason to feel “different” and wasn’t about to tolerate it at the recruitment stage.

I prefer to concentrate on the good work that is done by people who shine a light on things, with love and hope, not anger. People who are powerful, yet passive. People who radiate good and change through their inner light. People like Mother Theresa and Princess Diana, who can stop you in your tracks with a smile.

“The laws we have now to protect women like your friend were brought in against the will of the establishment”. See I don’t agree with this either. The establishment does nothing that it does not want to. They’ve opened the doors to Europe now, to gain a workforce, just like they did, each and every time they need more women to work. It’s all a numbers game.

See that word fight again, in your closing paragraph. I see words coming up again and again like “struggle”. I don’t find this kind of language empowering which is why I won’t be recruited to this kind of Feminism.

I don’t wish to derail this discussion any further, Liska, but would only point out that you are doing exactly what some of the ‘ranty lot’ as you so charmingly term us have warned against. You reduce the discussion of feminism, to ‘me and my friend’.

It is truly fantastic that your friend was able to assert herself, but we are talking about more than one person, or one group of friends, or a small section of the internet represented by ‘mummybloggers’.

Lets take one simple example. Women earn on average about a third less than men who do the exact same job. Now, you could say, ‘Oh, but that isn’t always true, because I earn the same as my colleague’, but that would not change the basic fact. Women earn less than men. That is not equality, and we should protest against it.

When we do have equal pay, would you like to hand your extra 1/3 over to me, because you prefer to be fluffy and light, and I fought for it?

I agree with Helen, we do need to have respect for each other. I respect the fact that you and some others would prefer not to fight or struggle, because you don’t find the language empowering, but I would ask you not to refer to those who are taking up the fight as ‘ranty’ and ‘aggressive’ as I find that quite hurtful.

I realise that most of the readers of this blog won’t know me, but I actually do a lot of very positive activism for young people, alongside the more ‘protest’ side of activism. It is possible to do both, it doesn’t have to be one or the other.

I apologise profusely if I have been hurtful, that was never my intention. Like a recent commenter has explained just now better than me it was jfk or tfk (something like that) upthread, who first got my bones rattling, not you.

I just think some people expect this post to take on the subject in its entirety and for this to be reflected in the comments, but it is an opinion piece, not an article in the New Statesman, and a lot of us don’t live and breathe this subject, so I for one am not good at arguing my way around it. So sorry if my approach is a bit “me and my friend”. I’ll get back into the hole I crawled out of, and remind myself once again to stay clear of these debates. They go over my head and that is where they should stay.

If you want me to say I am grateful for all of the work that you all do, then I am I truly am, and I honestly know you to be a good person. Just like it was sad that Helen on stage felt she needed to emphasise her prior blue chip experience it is sad that you have now had to highlight your good work. If I have in any way contributed to you feeling the need to do so, I am sad for that, so will have the good grace to walk away from this thread.

Liska, please don’t take your voice away from the debate in its entirety, because you do make some good points. And to answer Claire and Lynn, I completely agree that apart from one or two unconstructive comments, the debate has been respectful, if strong. I welcome the strength of debate – it’s absoutely the best way to raise the profile of the need to change things for women. And I’m so so glad that my putting my thoughts into the pot has brought such strength of opnion over from one group of women’s voices, to another.

It is very difficult, when emotions are high, not to take things personally, but you mustn’t. If I was trying to achieve anything on Friday, and subsequently, it was to bring some of the more moderate voices out to add theirs to the cause. We can’t all view things the same way, and Lynn, I’m afraid aggressive is a relevant word for some women – not that I have ever seen that in you, nor in most of the commenters here.

And thank you for giving us this space to do so. You have held the space, and the energy of this conversation with composure and intelligence that has shone through in the post and the replies to comments. Good on ya! (Hope I don’t get accused of back-slapping) But I don’t care 😉
xLiska recently posted…Breakdown and Breakthrough at BritMums Live 2014

Lynn, again, I’m not trying to be simplistic, and I do know that these stats are incontrovertible, but I’m going to play devil’s advocate, in the same vein as my original post.

I’ve said that I haven’t experienced discrimination at the hands of men, and that’s not entirely true. I have, and I’ve experienced the inquality of pay. But whenever I have come across it, I’ve fought it, argued my case, and stepped in to prevent it happening to colleagues, where I could. But I think that’s because I feel strong enough to do so. I don’t assume that I can’t, or that I’m not worthy. Unfortunately, so many women do feel that way, and this, in part, is what my post, and my original comments on Friday, is about.

I want women to stop putting themselves down, and speak up. I do appreciate that there has been a culture of them feeling unable to do so, but I was hoping that my words would help some of them to realise that they can, and should.

I’m not prepared to debate and blame history for what has caused this to be the case – it’s not relevant to moving forward, in my opinion. I know what has caused the situation. I’m interested in women changing things for themselves where they can. And where they can’t, I’m glad to know that there are other women (and men) on their side helping to change that for them.

I just think that so many women with strong voices, who would like to help, feel bullied out of doing so, because of some of the nastiness that happens between women (and I’m not talking about the commenters on this post so far). I also worry that it prevents the women who would like to speak up on their own behalf from doing so, for fear of being branded – as someone has already said – ‘uppity and aggressive.’ When a woman doesn’t want to associate herself with feminism because of a handful of very influential figures who (again, my opinion only) diminish their stature with some of their actions, I think that’s a terrible shame.

I have immense respect for you, and most of the commenters here though. Thank you for adding your voice to the discussion.

I love your post. Didn’t go to BML, so I didn’t hear you talk. Love the idea that you were the only one wearing the tiara and had one of those sitting at the Christmas table moments and realising you are the only one still wearing the paper hat. I’m sure everyone knows that feeling, one way or the other.

I’ve read through all the comments and find it fascinating. Such passion is good to see. I can’t help thinking that the word feminism and all its baggage should be put into room 101. It muddles the whole debate. Too many interpretations and too much history. I’d like to propose that we go for the word “respect” instead. It has no gender, creed or ability (or favourite cookie). It gives equality. If we have respect for each other, then the rest will follow.Cheryl recently posted…A Teepee for the summer

Thanks Cheryl. I worry you’re going to get some strong replies on this so I’m going to step in first and be moderate.

I think some people will say that respect isn’t enough, although of course, if everyone had respect for each other, the problems would all be solved. My view on the most recent comments here is that there is a huge variation of levels of feminism. And that IS ok. The atrocities being suffered by women globally must be tackled, and I respect those who lead that charge, provided they do with intelligence and respect. Just because some people don’t show them the respect they deserve, there is no need to reciprocate with aggressive backchat, and risk losing the respect their strong voices and support they might otherwise harness. That achieves nothing for women.

If one woman is capable of changing the rights of women in Africa, or Afghanistan, and another is only capable of changing the employment opportunities of one woman in white, middle-class Britain, that doesn’t make the one better than the other. And such infighting will only lead to us all losing credibility.

So no-one here has a right to tell me that I am not a feminist. I am not a feminist who believes that the best way to make change is to swear and antagonise. I am not a feminist who feels guilty about not being able to do everything to help everyone, all of the time. But I am desperately supportive of any campaign which seeks to improve the lot of women the world over, and for me the best way to do that is to continue to support women who want to add their voice to campaigns, but who are too intimidated to do so.

I think Feminism is essential, but without your word – respect – it risks imploding on itself.

Totally agree about giving women a voice. All people need a voice. Women, children, men. (would add any living creature – but wrong discussion) People with passion need to talk, but so often the arguement is drowned out by people shouting, undermining and competing. Messages can be lost. This is where the word feminism diminishes in many people’s minds. Labelling becomes unhelpful and blocks the fabulous messages that are being voiced.

Some of us have quieter voices, but no less important to get them out there. If we all showed respect and reached out, as we can, wouldn’t that be a far more productive route. Whether its teaching our children to respect others or writing to our MP. I’m sure we can all think of positive actions that we can take. Use the passion in a positive way.Cheryl recently posted…A Teepee for the summer

P.S. Usually, I avoid any discussion with the word feminism in it. No interest in getting my head bitten off. I’m sure I’m not alone. Which leaves other angles on the discussion unsaid. Just because we don’t voice it, doesn’t mean we’re idling.Cheryl recently posted…A Teepee for the summer

A brilliant, brilliant post. I can’t agree more!! My response is not going to be as articulate or well written as your post but I want to agree fully with your point about woman in board rooms, or going for a job. When I go to an interview I want to get the job because I am me, not because I am a woman and that will make their figures look good. In fact if you are only going to give me the job because I am a female, well that sort of flips the whole concept of feminism on it’s head doesn’t it?

Also the other thing that gets my goat is the fact some woman will not admit that there are differences between men and woman. Some men are physically stronger, they are built difference and so sometimes when I am struggling I will have to admit that I am not strong enough to do something and have to find a stronger person to help, usually this stronger person is male.

When did society get so messed up, so PC that common sense stopped applying. Slightly off subject but it gets my goat with the whole fitness tests for Police. Did you know that not enough woman were physically able to carry the required weight (which is like the weight of an average person, imagining your partner had been shot and you had to drag them to safety) to join the firearms unit of the police and so they got rid of that part of the requirements. I’m not saying that woman shouldn’t be in the police, or the military or anything but I think common sense should play a fact not figures. Likewise I would like a fireman that turned up at my house if it is on fire to be able to carry me out of the burning building, I do not want a ‘minority’ (old, weak, etc not race related just to clarify!) to turn up who makes up the quota but gets to stand there and watch while I slowly burn to death!!Lauranne recently posted…A bad weekend

Sorry I am back yet again, but it is just to say, that I have sat here tonight baby sitting my computer for four hours so that I could upload the footage of the session. Actually it won’t let me put the link here. Anyway on You Tube I am NewMumOnline, it is my most recently uploaded video on my channel xxx

Edit: If you click the link to Liska above this comment it will take you to her video for anyone who would like to watch the session that finally made me want to write this post: Liska recently posted…Breakdown and Breakthrough at BritMums Live 2014

Thank you Helen, for making a click of my name take you directly to the You Tube video. THAT is fabulous. Not many people have discovered it yet as it has only had 7 views but then I did upload it in the middle of the night and everyone’s probably at work. Thank you again xLiska recently posted…Breakdown and Breakthrough at BritMums Live 2014

I saw this post the other day, but I was making tea and didn’t have time to comment. Since then I can’t tell you how many times I’ve said “you can be intelligent even if you’re wearing a tiara” to one or more of my kids. I always liked you. Your daughter has an amazing role model 🙂Jenny recently posted…The LEGO Ghostbusters Ecto-1 Vehicle and Minifigures set 21108 Review

I didn’t get to see you speak as I was with 12 week old Isobel and she had other ideas – so it’s great to have been able to read this post instead! I kind of wish I’d been able to watch it now… I really don’t have strong views about feminism but hey, if you want to wear a tiara then you should be able to – whoever you are!Lauren recently posted…Review: Maya breastfeeding dress PLUS win Â£40 to spend at Milk & Mummy

Hear-bloody-hear! What a brilliant post, and thank you so much for sharing it. To be honest, I didn’t even register that you were the only one wearing a tiara on that panel, I was too busy listening to what you were SAYING – and that is the point. I can listen to your intelligent commentary, and then afterwards or during clock what you’re wearing or look like, but quite frankly, first and foremost it is who you are, and what you think and do that matters. I remember being told that being non-white meant I would face adversity in the workplace, but honestly refused to take that chip onto my shoulder – what matters is what I do, not what I look like doing it, although I love a gorgeous pair of shoes as much as the next gal (or perhaps inordinately more as my husband points out at my 200-strong collection!).Mama and More aka Zaz recently posted…All About You Link & Pin Party – week 25

You’re right Zaz, and I like what you say about the chip on the shoulder. Exactly that. Of course I have faced discrimination, but I countered it and made sure it didn’t affect me. I know that this isn’t a possibility for everyone, but I also know that if more women felt their voices were strong enough to counter it, it wouldn’t have the effect that it does.

I wasn’t at BML so forgive me if I comment based on what I’ve read here rather than with experience of the event itself.
Firstly, didn’t this same issue arise last year? I recall reading about a feminist rant that upset a number of people and here we are again – a year later and the same debate is still rife. It is such a shame.
I agree with your point of view entirely. Like you, I’ve never been treated badly because I’m a woman. I have never used the fact that I am female as an excuse for not succeeding. In my distant career years I wore heels and a skirt but that neither negatively or positively impacted on my ability to do my job. I never consciously gave a thought to it because it is of all things in life the least important. My primary concern has always been to aquire knowledge to empower myself through learning and that has nothing to do with my sex.
One of my biggest pet hates in life is the women who seem to believe that it’s okay to undermine men and make mean comments about them. In my experience these women have been the ones who call themselves feminists – they are the ones who seem to enjoy putting a target on their own backs because they are so angry. The men I know believe in women and equality but they dislike feminists. I don’t blame them, the feminists I’ve met have terrified me and if I was a fella I’d run a mile.
The best way in my opinion of championing equality is to ‘get on with it’. Do a good job, have a voice and enjoy doing the thing you do.

I wouldn’t categorise myself as a feminist in the same way as I wouldn’t wear a badge saying ‘woman’. Infact, if I’m honest, I’d be frightfully embarrassed to be a feminist because the femist label itself only serves to widen the gap.

Thanks Prudence. It was Mumsnet Blogfest that sparked this last Autumn, and I’ve been wanting to write about it ever since, but only just now has it cemented for me.

This is a brave comment, and I agree with all of it. You say it very well. And that’s not to deny the fact that for women in different parts of the world, and in some sectors of society in the UK it is a different story. As the comments have pointed out, we are a certain socio-economic class of women, for the most part, on this blog, but there are many women within it who, as you say, use the fact that they are female for not succeeding, and wear feminism as a chip on their shoulders.

I would love to change the world for all women, and where I can, I add my voice to those campaigns (as is evidenced in various posts on my blog), but right here, in this post, I’m tackling that which is closest to home, that which is easiest for me to do something about. And I’m unapologetic about that. Because if to suit some feminists I have to do all or nothing, then those are the women obstructing the process. Surely it’s better to say/do what you can, even if it’s deemed to be small (as in, only helping a small section of the problem), than to give up and do nothing at all, for fear of criticism?

I absolutely agree. You must do what you can to improve the horrific injustices against women globally.
As middle class women who can articulate our thoughts reasonably well ( and you do a much better job of this than I ) we have a duty to use those voices to impact positively on issues where we can. Using those voices, especially in a public forum like BML, to in fight about how terribly unfair it is to be a woman is, at best, saddening. I wasn’t there as I have said but I do hope that the conversation was turned to wider global issues rather than just about the fact that you wore a tiara.

I totally agree with you and I think that it is important that you have decided to comment on it. My ‘voice’ is tiny as I’m a niche blogger (home-education) but I comment where it is appropriate because it is always better to try to do something positive than to run away or turn your back for fear of criticism. Like you, I wish that I could help on a much greater scale one day and I think, or I hope, that this is true of all the bloggers who have commented here.

Maybe one of the categories of debate next year should be how bloggers can come together to raise awareness of the plight of women who don’t have a voice? Shouldn’t we all try to work together to effect change or am I just an idealist?

I think that’s a really good idea. To be fair to the women on the panel, no-one disrespected me for my tiara, or (outwardly, at least) for anything else I had to say. But as you mentioned, there is a sector of feminists who have tried to do that to me online in the past, and have made women like themselves and others look less credible as a result.

I also hate the time and breath that is wasted airing grievances about ben who’ve admired our hair/dress/shoes/cupcakes, when it could be put to a better use.

I’ve just revisited this thread after a few days and have read all of the later comments. While it’s fantastic that this is being debated and discussed, it does make me feel anxious that we are seeing the aggression that you refer to in your post, Helen.

I really don’t want women to read through this and dismiss feminism because of the words of a few.

Feminism should be supportive and encouraging. I’m not suggesting we can’t disagree about aspects but doing it with respect and kindness is surely the most feminist way of doing it?Alison Perry recently posted…10 Signs Summer Is Here

Thanks for coming back Alison. I think most of the comments that are much stronger here are still reasonably respectful, and I’m guessing those commenters would argue that to make a difference you have to use strong words.

I can totally see the need for both approaches, but you’re right – if some women are put off joining the discussion because of some of the commenters here, then this post (and those commenters) will have failed to help women as a whole.

I really hope, as you say, that women who have tentatively come here to support other women, and figure out how they can start to make a difference, are not discouraged from doing so, because they truly will find support and a friendly shoulder amongst so many of us.Helen recently posted…See the Child #seethechild

Feminism is about equality so surely every woman is a feminist of a sort. I agree with you Helen, we should not get jobs just because of our gender. Although we do need to look at what puts people off going for the top jobs and we are undoubtably slightly restricted by our desire to have a family (and actually see them). Until the culture and way of working changes in many businesses, it is a difficult choice for women to make. But then that is why we have become such amazing entrepreneurs. More women than ever are getting out of the rat race and working for themselves – and so they should. Lets do things our way on our own terms!

I am really thankful of your discussion at BritMums Live – it got me thinking and writing – inspiring me to write a blog post on it (Stop The Jolie Bashing and Unite). We are doing really well here in the Uk and have moved forward enormously. We should use this, yes, to continue to improve things here but we must remember how lucky we are here to have a voice. Others in the world don’t have the luxury to speak out. At least our voices are heard and together they are even stronger.Elizabeth recently posted…Stop The Jolie Bashing & Unite

This is spot on Elizabeth, and exactly what I’ve been trying to say. We need to be pushing – as a population, not just as women – for working conditions that reflect our ability to show what women are capable of, and that allow men to spend more time with their families.

I’m sorry there wasn’t enough time to delve into this more at Britmums, but felt very lucky with my panel of articulate, intelligent women. I just wanted to say that the tiara issue seems to have got a little out of hand. Anyone is welcome (was welcome) to wear a tiara, and they looked grand. However, I am not a hat/tiara or even jewellery person, so it wouldn’t be my choice. I don’t think there was any judgement in this at all – and, as you mention, Bryony put hers back on.
There’s not enough space, is there, to go into everything and answer all the points made, although there are many, many good ones. However, I think the point I wanted to make, which funnily enough, goes alongside the tiara one, is that no one is saying women shouldn’t want to look good (if that’s their choice) or that there shouldn’t be any pictures of gorgeous celebrities in the newspapers, or that there is anything wrong with make-up/nice clothes/short skirts/having your hair done/wearing a tiara. What irritates me is when the media put a picture of someone in their paper simply for (can I say this?) “totty value.”. They don’t say what that person is doing, or talking about, they just publish a picture.
That is why I was pleased with the coverage of Angelina Jolie’s end to sexual violence summit. It wasn’t just a photograph of her looking fabulous, with no mention of what she was doing. Instead, the coverage did mention the summit and how she trying to change things for many women across the world. It wasn’t only about how she looked or what she wore (as might have been the case in the past). It’s great that she looked great. It’s even better than people also took notice of what she was saying.

Agreed Sarah. Where a woman is undertaking important work, I would also be irritated if no mention were made of that. And I do accept that this happens in the press – you only have to go back a few years to the insults suffered by Mo Mowlem and Ann Widdecombe to see how reporters bring women down based on appearance. But I stand by what I said on the panel, women are more interesting to look at than men, generally, and so comments on their appearance are going to happen. Personally, I don’t have a problem either, with photographs of women being used in papers to draw interest into other stories (provided it’s not photos of the Page 3 variety).
It’s a personal thing I guess, I just don’t think that being admired or criticised for your appearance (it happens to men too – David Beckham vs John Major?) is a bad thing, as long as it isn’t proactively used to diminish your policies/campaign/scientific accomplishments, etc. And if the press decided to only feature the way I looked, I’d take that as a message that I wasn’t making enough impact with my work, and I’d step it up.
But that’s just me. Thank you so much Sarah for adding your thoughts – as I’ve said numerous times here, I sorely want to see more women having their say in a moderate forum, as there are a lot more interesting opinions just waiting to be heard, I think.

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About Helen

I am an online copywriter and editor by trade. My background is in business management. If you are looking for professional copy that tells a compelling story for your website, do get in touch to discuss your needs. Read More…