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Reflecting Upon RTH -- SPOILER THREAD

"Hell's Gate" and "Hell Hath No Fury", by David, Linda Evans, and Joelle Presby, take the clash of science and magic to a whole new dimension...join us in a friendly discussion of this engrossing series!

My favorite of the series. Info dumps and plot is well balanced and the story moves along nicely.

It seems obvious that Harshu's force is toast, trapped as it is between two powerful Sharonian armies, neither of which he is strong enough to fight. It will be interesting to see if he has the good sense to surrender rather than getting his army slaughtered. I find myself wondering how that will impact the committee going out to investigate what's going on. Harshu looks to be sacrificed to mul Gurthak's plotting. But he apparently will achieve moral redemption by assuming responsibility for the wrongdoing on his watch, assuming he survives the Sharonians long enough to face the investigation...

Arthag, Velvelig etc. all can come out of cover now. The Sharonians control both the swamp portal and Hell's gate. I wonder if they have anybody watching to notice that...

Wasn't Shaylar absolutely magnificant when she confronted that committee of inquiry... I wouldn't want the lady pissed off at me!!!

Lots more to add, but this is good for a start.

Don

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When any group seeks political power in God's name, both religion and politics are instantly corrupted.

Let us extrapolate a tad with Shaylar and Jathmar, eh? They are bright, insightful and determined people. They have been used in ways that have infuriated each of them to trans-incandescent levels. One might say both have shown a nuclear level of anger towards almost the entire society of Arcana.

What will they do to vent this fury? I suspect vent is too a mild verb, more like venting through Bussard Ramjet's exhaust to target the Arcanan military structure or perhaps a Mythalan led Arcanan military.

Those two will extract their ton or two of flesh.

How, you ask? Suffice it to say that Jathmar's understanding of baseline physics, Gadrial's knowledge of Arcanan science and Shaylar's ability to read people will combine to undercut Arcana's ability to apply magic. Jathmar will make the connection that Gadrial made in RTH. Shaylar will find the most persuasive arguments to convince non-Gifted Arcanans and with Jathmar she will persuade as many non-Gifted Arcanas as she can get to listen that they no longer need to cow tow to thee arrogance of the Gifted.

Start with the Garthan and their hatred of the Gifted vos. Spread to the egalitarian Ransarans and see if those values survive a true test of their worth. Ransarans believing in individual liberty and worth will not stop the message Shaylar and Jathmar will spread. Plenty of Ransarans will see an opportunity and capitalize on the knowledge. Arndara will be caught up with the Garthan and likely they will survive the least scathed from the revelations. Although, their society will be rocked from the knowledge that its was a largely Andaran force that displayed so little honor in war and combat.

PeterZ wrote:Let us extrapolate a tad with Shaylar and Jathmar, eh? They are bright, insightful and determined people. They have been used in ways that have infuriated each of them to trans-incandescent levels. One might say both have shown a nuclear level of anger towards almost the entire society of Arcana.

What will they do to vent this fury? I suspect vent is too a mild verb, more like venting through Bussard Ramjet's exhaust to target the Arcanan military structure or perhaps a Mythalan led Arcanan military.

Those two will extract their ton or two of flesh.

How, you ask? Suffice it to say that Jathmar's understanding of baseline physics, Gadrial's knowledge of Arcanan science and Shaylar's ability to read people will combine to undercut Arcana's ability to apply magic. Jathmar will make the connection that Gadrial made in RTH. Shaylar will find the most persuasive arguments to convince non-Gifted Arcanans and with Jathmar she will persuade as many non-Gifted Arcanas as she can get to listen that they no longer need to cow tow to thee arrogance of the Gifted.

Start with the Garthan and their hatred of the Gifted vos. Spread to the egalitarian Ransarans and see if those values survive a true test of their worth. Ransarans believing in individual liberty and worth will not stop the message Shaylar and Jathmar will spread. Plenty of Ransarans will see an opportunity and capitalize on the knowledge. Arndara will be caught up with the Garthan and likely they will survive the least scathed from the revelations. Although, their society will be rocked from the knowledge that its was a largely Andaran force that displayed so little honor in war and combat.

In the end it will also be Andarn honor which retrieves the situation.

Actually, the sore tooth to which Garthan wrath needs to be applied is Mythal. IIRC, the Ransarans have a pretty civilized society.

Don

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When any group seeks political power in God's name, both religion and politics are instantly corrupted.

Whether Arcanan societies are civilized or not is less the issue than whether it can adapt to massive change. A massive change in how their economies and societies function. Adapting to those changes will undermine the ability of those societies to engage in a multi-universal war. From this perspective Mythal is going to get massively schlonged. Ransar will likely have significant tumult but take the most advantage of the new knowledge. Andara will remain somewhere in between.

PeterZ wrote:Whether Arcanan societies are civilized or not is less the issue than whether it can adapt to massive change. A massive change in how their economies and societies function. Adapting to those changes will undermine the ability of those societies to engage in a multi-universal war. From this perspective Mythal is going to get massively schlonged. Ransar will likely have significant tumult but take the most advantage of the new knowledge. Andara will remain somewhere in between.

I think you are pretty much on target here. It does appear to me that Ransar is the most elastic and likely to come the closest to dealing with change gracefully.

Don

When any group seeks political power in God's name, both religion and politics are instantly corrupted.

Kind of hoping Jathmar bites it, to be honest. I find him utterly uninteresting as a character, and he seems set up to do something really stupid.

The hearing scene with Shaylar was nice, though it kind of stretched my suspension of disbelief that these senior military officers were so intimidated by one civilian prisoner. And why were they seeing her as representing the Sharonan norm? After all, she's explicitly the first woman to be allowed to join a survey crew, so clearly she's exceptional, not average.

It was a pleasant surprise to see Chava Busar depicted as a competent villain, instead of an utter strawman. It would have been nice, though, if there were some more anti-Calirath conspirators who were genuinely good people. The notion of all these nations being so happy to give up their sovereignity...

All in all, I rather liked the book, though my eyes still glazed over at most of the Sharonan tech-info dumps.

"If-Then" constructions are my favorites, so: IF, at the end of Book 3, Harshu has not yet been destroyed by mul Gurthik's plot, and IF, by then,Harshu's Expeditionary Force has not yet been brought to bay, THEN, I expect that DW will do something unforeshadowed with them!

HTM

n7axw wrote:My favorite of the series. Info dumps and plot is well balanced and the story moves along nicely.

It seems obvious that Harshu's force is toast, trapped as it is between two powerful Sharonian armies, neither of which he is strong enough to fight. It will be interesting to see if he has the good sense to surrender rather than getting his army slaughtered. I find myself wondering how that will impact the committee going out to investigate what's going on. Harshu looks to be sacrificed to mul Gurthak's plotting. But he apparently will achieve moral redemption by assuming responsibility for the wrongdoing on his watch, assuming he survives the Sharonians long enough to face the investigation...

Arthag, Velvelig etc. all can come out of cover now. The Sharonians control both the swamp portal and Hell's gate. I wonder if they have anybody watching to notice that...

Wasn't Shaylar absolutely magnificant when she confronted that committee of inquiry... I wouldn't want the lady pissed off at me!!!

"If-Then" constructions are my favorites, so: IF, at the end of Book 3, Harshu has not yet been destroyed by mul Gurthik's plot, and IF, by then,Harshu's Expeditionary Force has not yet been brought to bay, THEN, I expect that DW will do something unforeshadowed with them!

HTM

Are you refering to book 4 rather than book 3? RTH is book 3.

Actually, I could see the series ending with the next one. In fact I think RFC has suggested the possibility. I don't think it will be as extensive as Safehold or Honorverse and I can see several satisfying ways to conclude it.

I wonder if it is going to be necessary to fight a battle to get Harshu to stand down. The other thing that is going to be intrguing is the investigating committee coming out from Arcana. How will they react to find the Sharonians between themselves and the army they have come to investigate?

Don

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When any group seeks political power in God's name, both religion and politics are instantly corrupted.

Karthak wrote:Kind of hoping Jathmar bites it, to be honest. I find him utterly uninteresting as a character, and he seems set up to do something really stupid.

The hearing scene with Shaylar was nice, though it kind of stretched my suspension of disbelief that these senior military officers were so intimidated by one civilian prisoner. And why were they seeing her as representing the Sharonan norm? After all, she's explicitly the first woman to be allowed to join a survey crew, so clearly she's exceptional, not average.

It was a pleasant surprise to see Chava Busar depicted as a competent villain, instead of an utter strawman. It would have been nice, though, if there were some more anti-Calirath conspirators who were genuinely good people. The notion of all these nations being so happy to give up their sovereignity...

All in all, I rather liked the book, though my eyes still glazed over at most of the Sharonan tech-info dumps.

The info dumps are a part on all of David's universes. I enjoy them although they do tend to slow down the movement of the plot. The bright side is that they do assist in immersing the reader in the world where the story is being told.

Don

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When any group seeks political power in God's name, both religion and politics are instantly corrupted.

No, I am referring to the status of Harshu and his army at the end of Book 3 (R2H), and making a Prediction for the future.

Of course DW can end this whenever he pleases. One way would be to give leaders who want peace to all sides. It depends on what story he wishes to tell. (As a reader, I find stories in which everything goes wrong, and all turning points are for the worst, to be irksome.)

HTM

n7axw wrote:

Howard T. Map-addict wrote:Thank you, Don.

"If-Then" constructions are my favorites, so: IF, at the end of Book 3, Harshu has not yet been destroyed by mul Gurthik's plot, and IF, by then,Harshu's Expeditionary Force has not yet been brought to bay, THEN, I expect that DW will do something unforeshadowed with them!

HTM

Are you refering to book 4 rather than book 3? RTH is book 3.

Actually, I could see the series ending with the next one. In fact I think RFC has suggested the possibility. I don't think it will be as extensive as Safehold or Honorverse and I can see several satisfying ways to conclude it.

I wonder if it is going to be necessary to fight a battle to get Harshu to stand down. The other thing that is going to be intrguing is the investigating committee coming out from Arcana. How will they react to find the Sharonians between themselves and the army they have come to investigate?