Transcript

CASSIDY: So the Prime Minister says the economy is recovering and recovering strongly. Do you agree with that?

SHORTEN: I don't think that most Australians think that they're doing very well at the moment. I'm not talking about the Government, I'm talking about how well Australians see their own lives. I hear what they're saying and I agree they're hurting. The most common sentence I get from people is they say that the price of everything is going up. Except, of course, their wages. And people want to see a Government who's acting for them. I think that people think that this Government has stopped working for them and what they ask me as the head of the Labor Party is - do we get it? Do we understand what's happening in the lives of people? And are we willing to do something about it?

CASSIDY: And the other point that the Prime Minister made there is - where are your policies that boost jobs and investment, and at the same time, you want to boost wages?

SHORTEN: Well, I think we've ripped up the rule book as an Opposition by not being a small target. We already made it clear that we think that one of the biggest problems in this country is a massive loss of confidence. And at the heart of this loss of confidence by many Australians, is a sense that inequality is increasing and that fairness is going out the back door.

CASSIDY: We'll get to the inequality, but what boosts jobs and investments? Your policies - from your policy, what really does boost jobs?

SHORTEN: Confidence is what boosts economic activity and what boosts confidence, for example, is making sure that whenever we spend money, we spend it on infrastructure, which is job creating. Not by handing away big, unsustainable corporate tax cuts to large profitable companies who will just put them into bank accounts and take them as profits.

CASSIDY: When you talk about inequality, what's the problem here, is it flat wages? Is it the high cost of energy and housing?

SHORTEN: All of the above Barrie. But let's go to jobs. The reality is that nearly a third of Australians are in casual employment. They could be dismissed at a minute's notice. We see growth, which is happening, but it is not generating new jobs. With the technological revolution that we're living in, the GIG economy, we're seeing lots of jobs replaced by very few. And inequality isn't just a problem for young people. We keep telling our young people that if they go to university and if they study in nursing or engineering or teaching, there will be a full time job at the end of it. But the reality is that the full time jobs are not what the promise is. And as I said, it's not just young people. Older Australians, people in their 50s and 60s, go to job interview after job interview and get the knock backs. Women aren't paid the same as men. And if you look at the regions, they're getting a second class NBN. I mean if you want an example of inequality and how this country's not working for people, we're contorting ourselves about having a plebiscite on marriage equality when the LBGTI community say, why do we have to have a separate law making process for us? There's too much inequality. We're an energy rich country yet our energy prices are going up. We're telling people we've got to act on climate change yet this Government can't even agree on the science of climate change.

CASSIDY: You spent a bit of time though in your speech the other day on inequality and it's about the tax structure. That's a challenge because it is one thing to raise it as an issue and another to fix it.

SHORTEN: Well, first of all you've got to agree that it is an issue and we do have a 2-class tax system. For most Australians we're now heading towards the end of July, many of them will have filled out their tax returns. They'll claim a couple of vanilla deductions. Maybe a salary sacrifice motor vehicle if they're lucky and maybe some work costs. But there is another tax system where if you have enough money, you can basically choose to opt out of many of the taxes. Now Labor is already tackling this. We defied the critics and we've now said that we want to reform negative gearing and capital gains tax concessions. In my budget reply, I said it's a joke that people can claim limitless amounts for paying their accountants to deduct, to provide advice on how to deduct tax. It's a double dip. So why can someone claim $1 million for the cost of going to their accountant because their accountants managed to make them pay no tax at all?

CASSIDY: You have talked about negative gearing, capital gains tax, you've mentioned you'd restore the budget repair levy. But where else can you go in the tax area?

SHORTEN: Well there are areas to go. But I want to go to that point that you said about the budget deficit repair levy. We've taken a different approach already on the budget. We think that this is exactly the wrong time to give a tax cut to millionaires. I mean if you earn $1 million in the next 12 months, courtesy of the Government, you'll get a $16,400 tax reduction, yet, this Government want to introduce taxes, income taxes, through the form of the Medicare levy by half a percent on people who earn 60-thousand dollars -

CASSIDY: You're the one increasing the tax because you're taking the top threshold to 49 per cent because of the budget receipt pair levy.

SHORTEN: We want to keep the budget deficit levy on, because there is still a budget deficit, but we're the only party who are opposing increasing taxes for 8 million Australians. It is a matter of deciding what your economic plan is. This is a Government whose only economic recipe is to give more help to the people who are already at the front of the queue, who are already well off. I'm going to take a different attitude. My party is taking a different attitude. We want to help and put the emphasis on middle class and working class salary earners, wage and salary earners and small businesses. People who are not at the front of the camp.

CASSIDY: But I invited you to talk about initiatives beyond those that we've already mentioned and you haven't come up with any.

SHORTEN: Well, let's be very clear here. We are very close to announcing some further initiatives.

CASSIDY: Around what area?

SHORTEN: The tax system. We think it is not right -

CASSIDY: Yes, but... what area of the tax system?

SHORTEN: Well Barrie I'm going to check our detail and the devil is always in the detail, but watch this space. Very soon we're going to make further tax reform announcements. But what I'm also prepared to say here is that we, as a party, are doing the hard work to create one tax system for all. The fact of the matter is that people want a change of attitude from the Government. They want a Government that's acting in the interests of people.

CASSIDY: Until you come up with the details, it's just words, and in the meantime, Scott Morrison yesterday talked about Labor introducing death duties and inheritance taxes and those kinds of things.

SHORTEN: Oh well, we'll put Scott out of his misery soon and we'll announce further policies. But let's be straight here. When in your time of surveying politics have you seen in the last 10-15 years, people actually putting policies out well ahead of an election? But what I'm doing, as my whole party is doing, is we're saying that the challenge in the Australian economy is to get the Government working for the people. We've got to rebuild confidence. At the heart of confidence is dealing with inequality and a lot of people don't think that they're getting a square deal. Look at the wages system. Most Australians haven't had a wage rise for two or three years.

CASSIDY: What about family trusts? This is the system where profits can be shared around the family to minimise taxes in effect? What do you think about the principle of family trusts?

SHORTEN: Well, trusts as a legal protection I think are sound. But I've made it very clear that I do have a principle which say that is we should have one tax system for all.

CASSIDY: So you can make changes around family trusts?

SHORTEN: Well we're not going to announce our policies on this very, very good show, Barrie. But I will just remind people that when it comes to tax reform, I'm not even bothering in this interview to talk about the other side of politics. They're consumed by themselves. What I want to do is do what Australians want from both sides of politics. What is it that we're going to do for them. I've made it clear. I want to put the dream of being able to afford to buy your first home back within the reach of working middle class Australians. I want to see us have a bipartisan approach on the problems of climate change and energy prices. The single greatest driver of energy prices in this country going up and up and up is a lack of national policy certainty. And yet, the Government is still struggling over the chief scientist's report.

CASSIDY: Reading your speech, it does seem to be a total rejection of trickle down economics, market driven economics and it's heavy on intervention, government intervention.

SHORTEN: Well, the Government's basic economic policy for the people is that they're going to give an unaffordable tax cut to large companies, which will explode the national debt. They've decided that it's the best thing they can do is give a tax cut to millionaires. At the same time, they're cheering the cutting of penalty rates. They want to increase the taxes on people who earn $40,000, $50,000, $60,000, $70,000 a year. Their policies are all about looking after people who are already doing very well. I'm interested in everyone else. And what people want is a change of attitude. This Government is not going to change its attitude so my message is - if they change the Government, we will make sure that we stand up for these people.

CASSIDY: Do you resent the wealthy?

SHORTEN: No.

CASSIDY: Because, it just seems here that you're tracking Jeremy Corbyn, Bernie Sanders, or both of them?

SHORTEN: No, I've made clear in my speech, which you've quoted from already, that I respect wealth. It's good that people make money in this country. But they're not the reason why I get out of bed every morning. The people I want to help are the people for whom the link between hard work and rewards seems to be fraying.

CASSIDY: But are you impressed by Jeremy Corbyn and Bernie Sanders? Are you influenced by them?

SHORTEN: I'm not influenced by them. I am influenced by the hundreds of thousands of conversations and people I've met since I've become leader of the Labor Party. What people tell me in the supermarkets, at the Town Hall meetings and in work places is they're hurting and doing it tough. They're having to dip into the savings just to make ends meet. Wages are flatlining. Penalty rates are getting cut. Energy prices are out of control and they worry about whether or not they're going to hand on a better standard of living to their kids. The fact of the matter is that the most likely predictor of whether or not you're going to be able to buy a house at the moment is do you have rich parents. That isn't good enough is it? That's not the deal which we promise your kids, that's not the deal which we promise to Australians working hard.

CASSIDY: Kevin Rudd was back in the news this week and he once said of asylum seekers on Manus Island and Nauru that they would never, ever, be resettled in Australia. Now he says that they should have been resettled in Australia, or New Zealand three years ago. Which one is the Labor policy?

SHORTEN: Well, we've made it clear that we're not going to see the people smugglers back in business.

CASSIDY: Never, ever?

SHORTEN: We don't want the people smugglers. -

CASSIDY: Is your policy that they would never, ever return to Australia?

SHORTEN: Let me explain our policy. That is part of it, yes, just to go to the short answer. But the longer explanation is this. 1,200 people that we know of drowned at sea. I don't ever want to see that happen again. This is not a matter... and the Government would love us to...

CASSIDY - And that was under Labor's watch?

SHORTEN: The Liberals could helped with the Malaysia Solution. That would have I suspect, prevented some of the deaths. Let's call it as it is. But let's be really straight. The Government want to say that Labor wants to see the people smugglers back. We absolutely don't. I think it's shameful that Dutton and the rest of the crew are trying to encourage the people smugglers by saying that Labor wants to see them back in business. We don't. But what I do respect is the legitimate concerns, not just of former prime minister Rudd, but a lot of people, that this Government has been so derelict that there's still a lot of people in these facilities in what is now seemingly indefinite detention. I, for one, want to see this Government succeed in its arrangement with the United States and I would like to see them do more to tie up arrangements with other nations. There's got to be a way that we defeat the people smugglers, avoid the terrible deaths at sea without keeping people in indefinite detention.

CASSIDY: There are reports that there are moves afoot within the Labor Party to tackle this at the national conference and that they'll want a softening of the "never, ever" policy.

SHORTEN: Well I know that the Labor Party as least as well as anyone else. And I respect the concern that people have about indefinite detention. But I also know that people never, ever want to see people drown at sea in the manner which happened courtesy of the criminal syndicates and people smugglers.

CASSIDY: When do you think that the next election will be? And what are you preparing for?

SHORTEN: I don't know when the next election will be. I actually, that's up to Mr Turnbull and his team. What we're preparing for is to have policies to speak to the lives of middle and working class wage and salary earners and the small businesses. I said that we wanted tax reform, infrastructure. We want to make sure that we've got an energy policy which puts downward pressure on prices and of course, we want to make sure that we have the best education system.

CASSIDY: But you see there's no certainty around elections either and in every state now, Queensland has now signed up beyond the next election. Every state in Australia now has 4-year terms.

SHORTEN: Yeah, I think that you make a good point. And a lot of people do raise this with me. The federal political system seems out of whack in that everything is so short-term. The average life of a Federal Government is two and a half years. It's not even three years. I, for one, would be happy to see 4-year terms. I for one -

CASSIDY: Are you prepared to put it out there as a referendum proposal?

SHORTEN: well, let me put it out there on this show, then. We need both Labor and Liberal to cooperate on 4-year terms. If Labor just said we wanted 4-year terms, it would fail. But I think that it is not about Labor or Liberal, I think it's about the nation. I think the nation needs 4-year terms. Governments can be more daring and more determined if they're not constantly thinking about the next election. If prime ministers of the day don't have the tempting trigger to pull that if they have an improvement in the short-term position, they race to the polls. What this country needs is long-term policy making. Over the cycle of polls and 2.5 year cycles. Now, I'm saying that I would be prepared, and it is Labor policy to have 4-year terms, to say that before the next election, why couldn't the Government of the day, Mr Turnbull or whoever is in charge, and myself, agree that whoever wins the next election, that together, we would have an agreed change to the constitution which we would put to the Australian people of 4-year terms.

CASSIDY: You know the problem with this in the past is that 4-year terms in the House of Reps means an 8-year Senate. That's always been the sticking point?

SHORTEN: Well, I think that there's two steps. If the Liberals would agree with the proposition which Labor has for 4-year terms f they agree that that is the target, then let's work out how to deal with that Senate question. It shouldn't be a deal killer in my opinion. But what I'm saying is before the next election, when we're not sure who's going to win or lose, but what is more important is that we want to have long-term policy, certainty, builds confidence. Perhaps both sides of politics could sign up to a commitment to jointly support, regardless of who is in charge after the next election, 4-year terms in the constitution. That's that sort of certainty, which I think people are looking for. You know, we opened up with that discussion about what's Labor's policy? We want to put confidence back into the system. We want people to think that the Government is working for them. That's why we think that tackling inequality is fundamental. But a measure such as 4-year terms, well that also adds certainty, confidence. People can get on with making decisions.