Quit reading about it and go and practice... Go Slow, tie into a completely separate backup rope with a bit of slack if you don't trust yourself.

If you cant talk a friend into getting numb legs while they hang around waiting for you, fill a big bag with water bottles or sand or something and get to it!

You can ask and ask, but plenty of people have given you reasonable ways to do things. I don't think you'll ever have the solve all rescue as it changes due to many variables... what if you don't have enough biners due to your mate having all the rack, or your partner wakes up and starts being combative (good story in Steve House book about that...).

If you're not comfortable going out and practicing/learning by yourself, pay a guide to show you.

On 15/08/2014 IdratherbeclimbingM9 wrote:>... ~> if you keep this up I shall have to bequeath you the mantle of>Chockypost-linker when I drop off this lifetime's route...>Heh, heh, heh.>
I've got at least 9000 posts to go before applying for the role of Chockstone librarian..

On 15/08/2014 maxdacat wrote:>dead and unconscious bodies are a real pain to move around - err allegedly.

Unconscious people are tricky to move around single handedly. Dead ones not so much because try as you might, they can't get any deader;)

Fair suck of the sav, in my opinion poor Jim jam seems to be copping it for asking a pretty straightforward question. Given the answer seems to be, 'there are a million ways to do it', is it a bad thing for him/her to ask for a few different ways to accomplish the task. People may think the situation is a bit off but that's ok, if it help them learn then giddy up I say...

> if you have no useful advice other than "avoidable or self rescuable" I'll invite you to butt out. >James.>
Don't know about a new ODH, but I am going to get a good supply of popcorn in stock as there might be more to this apart from a new route name.

On 15/08/2014 JimmyJimJam wrote:>I might be largely out of place here, being new to the forum, but honestly>Wendy, someone could quite easily be rendered unconscious by rockfall,>a wayward swing off an overhang, or any number of unlikely but possible>scenarios, even having taken the precautions of putting on their helmet>and tying their auto block. And, when a loose rock comes hurtling at your>head it makes no difference whether your on a big wall or a measly two>pitch route.

Try as I might, I can't think of any way an autoblock is going to save being knocked unconscious ... What I was suggesting was that someone who has chosen not to take the precaution of wearing a helmet is likely also to have chosen not to take the precaution of using an autoblock, (which I freely admit to doing rather a lot) and so in the event of being knocked out is going to slide on down the rope the whole way. And if the force of rockfall or hitting the rock is enough to knock someone out through a helmet, I think we might have a few more serious injuries to deal with. Like broken necks and skulls. I would have thought if someone could easily be knocked out rapping in these circumstances with a helmet on, I might possibly have come across it in 25 years.

Andrew offered you the text book answer to your question in about post 3. The following posts suggested that if your scenario ever happened, it was almost guaranteed to have poor outcomes because of the circumstances, time limitations and concurrent medical emergencies. I suspect your ASM course didn't cover it because it just isn't a useful scenario to practice.

I know I amped up the stakes in the beginning but if you have>no useful advice other than "avoidable or self rescuable" I'll invite you>to butt out.

Pfft, avoidance and self rescue are crucial survival skills! Especially in the case of this scenario, where the person is going to die. But as you may notice reading my post, I was not actually referring to this scenario at this point, I was offering scenarios that are far more likely to arise and therefore useful to be aware of, avoid and be able to get out of.

Following my avoidance strategy, my suggestion for this scenario is to piss off the autoblock and top belay the abseiler down. Then when a goblin jumps out of the rock, whips their helmet off and clonks them on the head with their hammer, you can just lower them down the rest of the route. Of course, this has problems on a multipitch steep route, but then if you prusik down to this person, you are still hanging in space and unable to swing either of you back into the cliff. Or if you are going to a hanging belay, but then have you thought what are you going to do to get this unconscious person out of a dead hang in a hanging belay?

I honestly think this is not a particularly realistic scenario and you would be better spending your time on the basic rescue skills, principles and strategies, how to apply them in the most common situations, practice them in more awkward situations as you gain confidence and using problem solving skills to work out how to best apply them in the given circumstance. Which is how we really learn everything in climbing. We get taught how to place gear or set up belays in relatively ideal situations and gradually progress to placing harder to find gear and difficult to rig belays. We start of on climbs with easy moves and obvious holds and progress adapting these skills onto harder climbs. We don't pick some obscure hard climb that almost never gets an ascent and ask what's the best way to do the crux so I can practice it!

I agree with Tim, go out and practise. I work in an emergency response team and we practise "pick offs" often. Even with all the fancy gadgetry they are difficult, painful and physically taxing. The methods described by some of the previous posts will work but require knowledge and understanding gained from practical experience, go and play.

On 16/08/2014 Wendy wrote:>We don't pick some obscure hard climb that almost never gets an ascent and ask what's the best way to do the crux so I can practice it!>
Yeh?
I guess Nyrie Dodd wasted her time getting ready for Passport to Insanity then.

On 16/08/2014 Duang Daunk wrote:>On 16/08/2014 Wendy wrote:>>We don't pick some obscure hard climb that almost never gets an ascent>and ask what's the best way to do the crux so I can practice it!>>>Yeh?>I guess Nyrie Dodd wasted her time getting ready for Passport to Insanity>then.>>

Go back to your popcorn .... Nyree didn't go from toproping hammer to a replica of passport! I'm talking about the process of progression. And I reckon Passport has had a lot more free ascents than the number of people have needed to be rescued from falling unconscious on a rap rope on a friendly 2 pitch rock route.

On 18/08/2014 E. Wells wrote:>Whats 'Passport' ? Is it good and what kinds of crux moves if its a climb>Im climbing alot lately maybe I can try it and not abseil? Its One Day>Heros Birthday today also aswell.
I think you're joking.. But for the benefit of others:Passport to Insanity

On 18/08/2014 E. Wells wrote:>Whats 'Passport' ? Is it good and what kinds of crux moves if its a climb>Im climbing alot lately maybe I can try it and not abseil?

I agree with martym>I think you're joking..
But for the benefit of others:
Nyree set up above her home verandah, a couple of timber planks, set apart at the 'small hands' crack width, to do laps on as training for the 'small hands' crack that is the roof crux of Passport To Insanity.

On 17/08/2014 Wendy wrote:>Go back to your popcorn .... Nyree didn't go from toproping hammer to a>replica of passport! I'm talking about the process of progression. And>I reckon Passport has had a lot more free ascents than the number of people>have needed to be rescued from falling unconscious on a rap rope on a friendly>2 pitch rock route.

When Nyrie attempted Passport it had no free ascents! It was also quite a jump in grades from what she had climbed previously.

And talking about abseiling accidents... what were the exact circumstances of Paul Pritchard's accident on the Totem Pole?

Although the unconscious abseiler scenario is very unlikely, weird accidents do happen. Todd Skinner's death from his belay loop breaking whilst abseiling is a classic example of something you would never imagine happening.

[begin official hijack]
I remember flicking through the gramps selected guide and seeing te photo of Nyree and then seeing she was the first ascensionist - and couldn't find any more info about her- I was a bit surprised; especially with the amount f detail given to HB's Welcome to Barbados.. Seemed like she was our own Lynn Hill.. A true One Day Hero... Then I read about her injury, climbing's loss.
[End Hijacking]

For Jummy JooJoo, here's the Totem Pole story - not abseiling, but definitely rock fall and if you've been to Cape Huay, you'll know this is pretty much the nightmare you've described:
"She prussiked the thirty meters back up to the ledge and rigged up a simple two-way pulley system through a carabiner. Now, I weigh eleven stone and she weighs nine stone, so you may ask how is this humanly possible? You must have heard about the child who lifted a car off her father who was being crushed when a jack failed. There are numerous such stories of superhuman strength fuelled by adrenaline. I can only put this down to just such an event. She says it was hard, but it had to be done, she had no choice in the matter. She either did it or I died. So there was no decision to make."

OK. I'm weighing in. Mark C passed out when I was belaying him on a route in Armidale. He just pulled onto the belay ledge, said "I fell faint" and passed out (onto the ledge). We did the only sensible thing. We made fun of him when he regained consciousness.

On 13/08/2014 JimmyJimJam wrote:>New to the site. >My question is; >What would you do if you were rappelling off a route and your partner>("ahead/bellow)" falls unconscious? Autoblock assumed. >A. Build a raising system to pull them up?>B. Prussik down to them (then what?)>C. Lower them if possible (how?) >D. Any and All ideas welcome.

my 2 bobs worth:
Assuming you don't have a spare rope, Prusik down (using Klemheists, Prusiks or VT Prusiks) and do a pick-off recue (believe me, pick-offs need quite a bit of practice to do efficiently) Whatever you do, you want to do quickly with an unconscious patient
then descend with your partner
the pick-off will be a bit more straightforward if you can abseil down on a spare rope
you could lower them if the abseil system has been set-up as releasable

On 21/08/2014 gnaguts wrote:>Even if not releasable, sufficient knowledge in rescue techniques could>make it so after the event.

that would be difficult wouldn't it, if he/she was abseiling double rope?
you'd have to have a spare rope, do a small haul to release load at the anchor point etc.
That would work if the abseil rope was threaded through a snaplink but not if through chains or something you couldn't undo or cut. (or cut the rope!!)

But then again if you had a spare rope (of sufficient length) would it not be easier to do a pick-off?