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This thread is to be used for discussing the complete work of Umineko no Naku Koro ni... your thoughts about the game(s), overall impressions, speculation on the possible fan disc, etc., etc…

A few subjects you might want to ramble on about:

General impression of the series.

Opinions on the overall story, writing & plot devices.

Characters

Thoughts about the technical side of the game: character design, effects, sfx, music, etc

What the franchise meant to you.

What could the writer could have done better.

Important Note: as the title suggests, this thread serve as grounds to discuss the franchise as a whole, thus the -complete- work.
Anything focused only on Episode 8, and notably its ending, should be posted in the Episode 8 thread. For all intent and purpose, this very thread is for Episode 1 to 8.

[Warning]: As this thread is meant to discuss the tale as a whole, it will obviously cover everything that the PC doujin games have unfolded. Therefore, for those who have followed the anime or english translated episodes only, I wholeheartedly discourage you to proceed, unless you are willing to spoil yourself.Please be aware this is not supposed to be a spoiler thread, therefore, please do not start asking about how the ending was done and so forth.

Suffice to say, in order to paint a pertinent and meaningful opinion regarding the franchise, please be aware you are expected to have read the complete work: I will not tolerate any supposed discussion with half assed impressions, regardless if it is positive, negative or neutral.
As another side note: please consider also that a fandisc similar to Higurashi no Naku Koro ni Rei is planned by 07th Expansion. Therefore, please keep in mind that it may have an impact on your overall impression.

Also, considering the ending and even the nature of the story being debatable, please do not start any fruitless debate whatsoever: everyone is entitled to their opinions, so insisting on personal points and the likes towards your peers will not be condoned. Regardless how you have enjoyed the franchise, do not start imposing your view and expectations to others, and more importantly: do not derail the topic into endless jousting.

Personally, the series has its ups and downs for me. If I were to rank the 8 epsiodes, from my favorite to least favorite, it would be:

ep5>ep4>ep6>ep1>ep3>>>ep8>ep2>ep7

Come to think of it, Erika definitely made the series more interesting. I did enjoy those logic battles, but wasn't a big fan of the fantasy fighting scenes (some are awesome, most are just a drag to read). I don't know if it's because Ryukishi07 had a good time writing it, but it gradually gotten boring. And he kept adding more and more fantasy characters, which started to dilute the series. EP7 had a bunch of farfetched logic, which didn't sit well with me. EP2 was an overkill with the fantasy horror, which I felt it went overboard. Ep8 had the obvious problem of not being able to provide the solution to existing problems and questions, and looking down on the readers as goats/pigs just doesn't help.

Characters

Spoiler:

As the episode count increased, the cast size also increased. Some characters remains somewhat the same, while other goes thru different changes. My top 5 character of the series would be:

5. Beatrice
There are lots of Beatrice, and I'm not saying all of them are awesome. The one I'm mostly referring to is the one that served as the GM for EP2-4. Back then, she was full of character. She has tsun, she has dere. She can act innocent, but also is shown to have an innocent heart. While she did go overboard in EP2, ep3 and 4 was probably the high point for her. She's not as good afterwards, when she's not herself (ep5-6), or when she doesn't do much (ep8).

4. Battler + GM Battler (but not including Touya-Battler)
Yes, he's useless. Yes, he might've committed the perfect crime and never got caught. Either way, he's been an awesome character. Whether he's acting all cool and coming up with logic, or just getting whipped around like a play thing. Lots of character there.

3. Eva+ Eva-Beatrice
It's hard to separate the two, especially after ep8. Granted, I never cared for Eva much, but I always thought that Eva-Beatrice was awesome in ep3. Ep8 definitely is the high point for her to recover the popularity. Eva, shouldering all the hate to protect Ange, is definitely one of the nicer twist of ep8.

2. LD
Granted, I didn't like her much from the start, as I also speculated that she might've been Takano from Higurashi. However, her role throughout the series has been solid, and always adds the nice surprises from time to time to balance out the two sides. While her performance in ep8 definitely helped, I think I've gradually started to like her more and more since ep4.

1. Erika
As said before, I think Erika is an awesome character. Very unique character with a very good twist on your good old detective type. Her reason for wanting to reveal the truth, her execution, and logics are awesome. Even as a "bad guy", she added much flavor to the episodes that she was in.

Come to think of it, many characters that I liked at the start aren't here. Bern used to be one of my favorite, but I get more and more confused by her (not because she's playing the bad guy). Many of the human characters just gradually did less, and mainly were used as pieces for the game only. Although if I were to have a #6, it would probably be Natsuhi.

Technical Stuff

Spoiler:

Since I played this mostly on a Mac laptop (as I'm usually away from home when the game comes out), I know I've definitely missed some graphical effects in the game, as the onscripter for mac doesn't support all the scripts. Overall I think the effects are done alright for a sound novel game. The effects for fight scenes are well done, no complains there.

Music. I liked many songs from dai, zts, -45, and Luck-Ganriki. My top 5, not including zts' songs (since I like most of them and they will all fill up my top 5 ), would be:

5. Engage of Marionette. Slower version of happiness, I like it better because it gives me a feeling of achieving something after working at it for a long time.

4. Ep8 ED. I have no idea what she's singing, but it sounds nice. Also, it reminds me of Ar Tonelico.

3. Happy_Maria!. I still have a hard time figuring out what the lyrics are, but magical gohda chef is definitely there. Plus it has a happy mood that went well with the fantasy elements.

2. Aoiro no Reishou (Blue jeer), Furuto Erika's theme. Not to be confused with "Meitantei wa shitteiru" (great detective knows), which is Detective Erika's theme. The music is nice and funky, and always makes me think of Erika's personality.

1. Final answer. It's fast paced, and used really well with the scene were Battler's resistance were proving to be fruitless against the court.

There are many more songs I like, tons from dai. If I were to say the song that's my least favorite, that would be...

Spoiler:

--I am going to leave it at this for now, maybe add more when I can think of more to write--

hmmm... a very great story but very confusing and has many trolling that can make your head explode because of anger, curiosity, nightmare fuels and the like. Has very awesome character design (especially when there is trolling) and 90% or more of the bgm's were just pure awesome!

Just like Rias I'll put my fav episodes and character as well:EPISODES

Spoiler:

The list would be:
ep5>ep4>ep6>ep7=ep8>ep1>ep3>ep2

I agree with Rias that Erika did made the story much interesting...
Reasons:
ep5 = the battle at the end is just pure awesome .
ep4 = same as above.
ep6 = i really like the act and trolling of Erika, Lamda and Bern.
ep7 = the only reason i love it because of Clair, Lion, and Will... and oh, I like how scary Bernkastel fight.
ep8 = i like the rainbow colored argument of purple, red, and blue. Ending not such.
ep1 = hmmm... first game I guess
ep3 = i really don't like eva-beatrice that much.
ep2 = its just so damn cruel

CHARACTERS

Spoiler:

4. Willard = the only character who (for me) in the story greatly was concern about the heart of the story.
3. Lambdadelta = I really love this wild card. She's so unpredictable.
2. Erika = She did made the story very interesting during her debut. I love her dialogues to Battler in ep6.
1. Bernkastel = She's the character I found very interesting. Her trolling since ep5 made me love her. She's mean and clearly love to tear out the guts. And I want her to be spank for some reason.

Overall, I really enjoyed everything about Umineko. I felt it was written really well, although there are a lot of places where the scenes drag on, specifically in Episode 4 and 8.

Spoiler:

It is hard for me to define Umineko as a genre, because it has so many moments of almost every type in it, and I feel that Ryukishi made it work well. It really feels like there's something in here for almost everyone no matter what genre you like.

As for the writing style itself, like I said above, it often times can drag on for way to long, and it feels like there's a lot of padding in the story made for the sole purpose of increasing the length of any one segment. I felt the more romantic and dramatic segments were the most well written, but the more tragic segments were the ones that seemed to drag on, like he wanted to be sure we understood that what was happening was very sad. The action segments, to me, felt fine, and I enjoyed them a lot. But then again, I don't read or watch a lot of 'action' things, so my expectations might be a bit low, as far as that is concerned.

The mystery itself was also very interesting, and despite not being completly answered in the end, I still enjoyed the process of thinking up theories with everyone and discussing them. This is one thing I enjoy about Ryukishi releasing 8 volumes within 4 years, is the length of time between each episode gives time to discuss and talk about the most recent episode and thoughts we had on it. As I've said in the episode 8 thread, I am a bit disappointed that the answer wasn't revealed completely, and that I feel that the motive is a bit 'weak'. I don't think he'll go against his plans and include answers in the 'Rei' arc, but if he did, it would certainly make my impression of Umineko much better.

The colored text were also a very interesting aspect for the mystery, and I feel it was a very creative and fun idea. Aside from leading to really awesome scenes in the actual novel, it has also lead to me doing some fun things outside of it.

The message that Umineko was conveying in the end, I feel was a really nice message. The several messages presented throughout the entire series (multiple interpretations, truth of the future, etc.) really made me think deeply about the way I think, and I feel it's influenced my thinking manner in a positive way.

When Umineko was first announced, I was thinking 'Oh no, this is going to be riding on the coat tail of Higurashi's fame', but I got a pleasant surprise in finding that I liked Umineko much more then I did Higurashi.

Now to discuss the audio of Umineko:

I absolutely love the music. There are very few tracks that I can say I wouldn't listen to outside of reading Umineko and only 1 or 2 that I can say I don't particularly like. However, even the ones I don't like I feel do an excellent job of setting up the mood in the story. I would say a lot of the 'creepy' tracks could use work though.

The sound effects are also very well done and used at just the right times to give the feel of the atmosphere.

As for the characters, I feel that everyone was given a separate character with distinctly different personalities, which is hard to do when you have as many characters as he had. Though, because of the amount, there were certain characters that didn't get to much character development, and it makes you wonder why they were there. While they had their own personality, it was more like they were there just to fill a quota rather then to be part of the story.

But overall, I enjoyed the presence of most of the characters. It's hard for me to pick a favorite one, as there are so many different qualities I liked about them. Battler's light heartedness and his being awesome at the end, Zepar and Furfur's perkiness, Erika....being Erika.

As for art, well, it tends to be a bit off-putting, but you get use to it, and Ryukishi's art has a certain 'charm' to it, for me. He is wonderful at drawing expressions though, and I would love to see his art improve.

The character designs, I really enjoyed. I'm not really sure what to add to that.

This does not really have to do with the main series, but I also enjoy a lot of the fan stuff to come out of Umineko.

As for the episodes themselves, these are in order from most liked to least liked:

Episode 7: I know this is a strange one to be my favorite, but I enjoyed the mix of jokes, revelations, and other feelings in the episode. As it got closer and closer to the end, I felt it got more and more awesome. And I really loved Golden Nocturne. I do wish that Will and Claire's duel at the end would have been, at the very least, a bit more descriptive, to lead up to Episode 8.

Episode 5: The first time we see Erika, who I really liked as a character. I liked the feel of this episode, and there were many parts that made me very excited to be reading it.

Episode 8: Yeah, I know. Despite the fact that it didn't answer much at all, I loved this episode. Throughout the whole thing I wanted to know what would happen next. I didn't really find the 'fans are the goats' thing to be an insult like many people seem to have done, and even if I did, I don't mind laughing at myself, so it didn't bother me. As I said with Episode 7, I would have enjoyed this more had there been more concrete answers and I feel that not showing Eva's diary, despite most of the episode being about it was too much. I didn't mind the fluff, and in fact I enjoyed it, but I tend to like things like that so...

Episode 3: I still remember the first time I read this, I got really excited when the magic battle started. There were several heart warming moments in this episode.

Episode 6: Once again, the introduction of some characters I really like, Zepar and Furfur. This was a very sad episode and I enjoyed a lot of the moments in it. This, behind Episode 4 and 8, is an episode that tends to be a bit to overly descriptive though.

Episode 1: The start of the series. I can't help but feel it's so low down on the list for me because I wasn't expecting it to be much when I started reading it. But, regardless, I still liked it. There might be a bit to much introduction, though.

Episode 4: I have trouble placing this episode. There are several good moments, light and heavy hearted, and I really enjoyed those moments. And Ange is one of my favorite characters. But, as I said above, Episode 4 is so over described, that, when I was reading it, sometimes I would be thinking "Hurry up!".

Episode 2: This is my least favorite episode, but despite that, that doesn't mean I hate it, and in fact, I still really liked this episode a lot more then most things. Battler's complete incompetence is probably one big reason I didn't like this episode as much as others.

Overall, I really really enjoyed the whole series. I certainly plan to read his next series, if the end of Episode 8 is any indication.

Overall, I think the complete series were 'above average'. I loved the first 4 arcs, but as I played through Chiru I just lost my feeling. I was not happy with the ending at all, there were still so many things I didn't get an answer to. Also, was I the only one that was hoping we'd see the 'Black Witch', that Maria was talking about? I mean, Siesta 556 was killed by the Black Witch, but in reality, Rosa broke it. And then Ange comes saying 'Yeah, Eva-trice is the Black Witch' and so on... I don't know, I was just hoping we'd might get an answer to who's really the Black Witch.

Anyways, I think that the script of the story was a great idea, but the execution of was pretty disappointing. I'm sure alot of people will be happy with the way it ended, but while many cared alot for the mystery it was not living up to expectations. I have to say, before Chiru got released I was starting to love Umineko more than I loved Higurashi, but I cannot say that now. In Higurashi, everything was answered clearly and yet, you got an awesome ending. So I must say that Higurashi still beats Umineko in lenghts. Although I enjoyed the series, and I'm hoping for another When They Cry to get released! (I need moar Bernkastel D

The only thing which made me stay with the series was the characters. I've always loved Ryukishis characters, and I think that Umineko had the best ones. Except for Maria... God, I hate Maria >_>

If I were to rank the Episodes in order, it would probably go something like this:

Great things about Umineko to me:
- Riddle game like feeling in arc 1-2-3-4 was really a lot of fun... make that arc 5 too.
- Characters are amazing. Character creation is Ryuukishi's real skill imo.
- Music is not only the best I've heard of any VN it's also used in a much much better way then any other VNs I've played.
- Red truth vs Blue truth was a really fun idea IMO.

Complaints are mostly minor but here's two.
- Twisting of the red truth left open too many interpretations of pretty much anything.
- Ryuukishi's artwork is something I understand being ... well not on the quality of a non-doujin VN like Fate or Kanon, but nontheless I cannot help but look down on his background editing skills. Better then in Higurashi at least but still... I'd be hoping for a When They Cry 5 that he hires a background artist or something.

Wrecking the red was inevitable, philosophically. I just wish when he finally did break it, he hadn't done so in quite such a blatant manner. At some point of course he had to twist something (otherwise the red wouldn't be any fun), but he definitely picked the wrong place to do it and the wrong time.

Conceptually, a lot of his ideas would work fine in a thriller. People expect twists and turns, shocks and reversals in those, but one isn't bound to "play fair" with information or anything. Higurashi was probably better for not making promises, despite being much weaker in many respects.

When I stop and think about how I would have liked Umineko better, the only thing I can honestly think of is including a Carr representing character, since Ryuukishi seems to have known of him and read his works, it feels like a wasted opportunity.

I mean, seriously. Gideon Fell being summoned from the depths of hell while dual-wielding canes of demon-logic-fire and then proceeding to smack the taste out of everyone. It'd have been a hell of a lot better than what Battler spent most of Chiru doing.

Which isnt to say that's my only criticism of the work.

To be honest, when I think hard about it, it's simply difficult to improve upon Umineko as a whole realistically, not that it was highly polished to begin with, but due to the sheer lack of depth in a lot of aspects. There's not much there to build on at this point. Would the series have been better if there was more closure to it? Of course. But Ryuukishi has made it clear from the beginning that that isn't what he was going for with this, in fact, the kind of closure we lament the lack of was something he intended to send a message about omitting in the first place. Ergo, closure would make this an entirely different work. Moreover, while we would have liked the mysteries presented to have a nice and neat solution explained to us...We're not gonna get it.

Like the nature of the Island isn't explained in any more detail than we got in Lost, that's what we're being treated to by Ryuukishi. In the end, the mystery aspects of Umineko were a ploy and a troll all in one. And the work is diminished for it...Because it is. The "mystery" of the story is not the centerpiece. It's an aside, a subplot at most, and is treated as one in the very end. Umineko is not a mystery, therefore, making it a mystery, while possibly creating a better story, is still making it a different story altogether.

That's why making Umineko into a mystery wouldn't be improving the work itself, it would simply be making it into an entirely different story, contrary to Ryuukishi's intentions. Which were terrible and ham-handed, but whatever. It is what it is.

The point I'm trying to say is that Umineko's depth is measured by Beatrice, the main character. And she is deep. But, BeatoYasuShkannonion is the only true depth in the story. All the other characters lack true depth, or are fictions within fictions, or fantasized ideals of departed individuals, or are just plain angsty. Angst is not depth.

Ange and Maria are not deep. They're filled with Angst. Eva is not deep, she's tortured, but only revealed to have had a face-heel turn at the very end. Or whatever you want to call it. Sure I'm being judgemental as hell, but face it, are you able to speak about anyone other than yasu in terms of real depth, rather than symbolism or metaphor? Maybe I'm just not able to see deeply enough, but for the life of me I can't. Not even Battler has any depth. Sure he's awesome except for when he's useless, but his character isn't really built upon. In fact, his major change of heart, at the end of episode 5, is shrouded in mystery, and we the readers gave it meaning rather than the author. And that change was taken for granted ever since.

Umineko is about big, flashy ideas and concepts being thrown around, with a good soundtrack and memorable characters. But it is by no means a deep work. It's a nice sandbox, to be sure, but there's only so much you can do with sand, and that's why a lack of Gideon Fell references and beat downs is the one thing that I feel Umineko is lacking for what it is.

Since he unfortunately spent most of it doing nothing, it wouldn't have been hard.

I still can't get over the nagging impression as the series winds down that the first two episodes of Chiru were literal filler. Ep7 has that "resuming where ep4 left off" feeling to it that I can't quite explain, like it was meant to be ep5 all along.

Since he unfortunately spent most of it doing nothing, it wouldn't have been hard.

I still can't get over the nagging impression as the series winds down that the first two episodes of Chiru were literal filler. Ep7 has that "resuming where ep4 left off" feeling to it that I can't quite explain, like it was meant to be ep5 all along.

If Zepar and Furfur weren't so bizarre on their own, I'd say Carr Demon Investigation Squad's Dr. Fell would have been ideal in Episode 6. When you think about it, the logic error is the perfect opportunity to smack around lolis with wooden canes made of corpulent awesomeness.

Alright, I'm gonna have to play the Umineko apologist here. Bear with me please.

I thought that EP7 answered nearly everything. I'm really not even sure what questions you all seem to be left with. So the fact that EP8 provides no more answers is irrelevant. EP7 closed everything up nicely, except for the Lion/Will situation, of course.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chron

Like the nature of the Island isn't explained in any more detail than we got in Lost, that's what we're being treated to by Ryuukishi.

Oh please. There is no magic smoke monster or psuedo-scientific bullshit in Rokkenjima. Don't let's be dramatic.

What exactly about the island did you want to know? There is nothing special about it, other than it is filled with explosives. And has a sizable lump of gold, and a secret mansion.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chron

But, BeatoYasuShkannonion is the only true depth in the story. All the other characters lack true depth, or are fictions within fictions, or fantasized ideals of departed individuals, or are just plain angsty. Angst is not depth.

Maria, angsty? No, no, she's unrealistically bubbly and happy, except when she's pretending to be a witch. Don't know where you got angst from. Children throwing temper tantrums is not angst either, don't pretend that it is.

But besides that, there are plenty of characters with multi-faceted personalities. Natsuhi for instance, is very interesting. She's motivated by her love for her family, her respect for Kinzo, her sense of duty. But she also feels out of place, lonely, and overwhelmed with responsibility because of her lackluster husband.

What more depth can you ask than that? I agree that there are many shallow characters in Umineko (Hideyoshi is fat and smokes, that's about all there is to him), but don't downplay the rest of the cast!

You say that Eva is "tortured" and dismiss her as if that sums up her entire character. I might as easily say "Holden Caufield is 'confused'", that is not depth. "Kurtz is 'mad'", that is not depth. "Atticus Finch is 'noble'", that is not depth.

I will agree with you that the lack of Dr. Fell is a glaring flaw, possibly the biggest flaw in all of Umineko.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Renall

I still can't get over the nagging impression as the series winds down that the first two episodes of Chiru were literal filler.

EP5 and EP6 were intended to be hints! Naturally, if you had already figured out the answer, those episodes seemed unnecessary. Although they were damned entertaining in my opinion, necessary or not.

Id forgotten about natsuhi, but frankly she is the obe exception to my point, and that can be explained as being a reaction to natsuhi culprit theory than intentionak design. It makes the lack of development in the rest of the cast all the more glaring. As far as angst goes, those are precisely the broad strokes ryuukishi paint rd d with. Eva has two modes: loving wife and mother, or tortured asshole. Neither are explored, she just acts in those roles and thats it. Eva and Eva-Beatrice make this point even clearer by making each sidr a.srerate individual. Maria is closer to being in denial, but even that is angst. Episode 4 showed most strongly what her deeper feelings were. Including her frustration and feelings of vengeance. At the end, she wasnt killing the.black witch, she was killing her mother. Maria was never a saint, she was just a naive child whos mother and environment embittered her. Ange is obvious, her angst is handwaved as being justified, but it is never anything more than that

One more thing. Everything about rokkenjimma we know is entirely within the context of fictions within fictions, with 8 different representations ogf events there. If anything the island in lost was more forthright in revealing its secrets than rokkenjimma.

Yeah, I know well the troubles of writing on a phone. You are forgiven for not being able to proofread.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chron

Id forgotten about natsuhi, but frankly she is the obe exception to my point, and that can be explained as being a reaction to natsuhi culprit theory than intentionak design.

You think Natushi being a well developed character was an accident? Yeaaaah, I'm sure Ryukishi totally meant to leave her bland and uninteresting.

Man, I totally wish I could unintentionally write good characters!

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chron

Maria is closer to being in denial, but even that is angst. Episode 4 showed most strongly what her deeper feelings were. Including her frustration and feelings of vengeance.

A character who is happy (if a bit weird) on the surface, but contains deeper layers of frustration, to the point of being vengeful?

It almost sounds as if you're saying that she has... depth? :o

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chron

Eva has two modes: loving wife and mother, or tortured asshole. Neither are explored, she just acts in those roles and thats it. Eva and Eva-Beatrice make this point even clearer by making each sidr a.srerate individual.

She acts like a vindictive bitch toward Krauss and Natsuhi. She acts like a jealous over-protective mother (not loving) toward Shannon. She acts like a good little daughter toward Kinzo. She acts like a bullying older sister toward Rosa. She acts like psychotic madwoman whenever George dies.

Really, the only person who gets the "tortured asshole" treatment is Ange.

And there's another character who has a lot of development whom we're not discussing: Rosa. A frazzled single-mother who abuses her daughter, but is nonetheless sympathetic (sometimes). She puts on a facade of weakness and stupidity to deceive her older siblings, but she's possibly the most competent of any of them, when it comes time to play ball. Like many other characters, she's very lonely and isolated, and she secretly wishes Maria's father would come back, even though he's obviously a jerk.

Depth!

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chron

Ange is obvious, her angst is handwaved as being justified, but it is never anything more than that

I don't like Ange much, so I won't press that point. I think she's more than just angst (she does get over herself eventually) but angst is a big part of it. But what do you expect from a teenage girl whose only living relatives want to A) steal all her money or B) make her life a living hell.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chron

One more thing. Everything about rokkenjimma we know is entirely within the context of fictions within fictions, with 8 different representations ogf events there. If anything the island in lost was more forthright in revealing its secrets than rokkenjimma.

It doesn't matter at all if it's fictions within fictions. The nature of Rokkenjima has been very clearly explained: There is nothing special or supernatural about it at all.

You haven't given me any examples of questions you still have about the island.

For instance, about Lost I can say, "Where did the smoke monster come from?", "What did the numbers mean?", "What the fuck was up with Walt?", "Where did the ending come from?", etc.

Checkmate. As far as the mumbers? Jacob. As for walt? Went past his expiration date. The smoke? Its what happens when you dump a corpse in a river. And the ending was a fan throwback, and possible near death vb hallucination.

With regards to eva, her acting like a bitch is a part of tortured bitch mode, brought on by generic jealousy issues. She never is shown kissing up to kinzo, and her treatment of rosa and shannon simply fill trope roles.

Rosa may have some depth, sure, but its mostly what we as readers give it aside from the ridiculously late game revelation of her wanting maria's father back. That struck me as a hamfisted attempt at garnering sympathy.for her.

Regarding natsuhi, I never said it was an accident. But that his hand was forced due to the apparent popularity of the natsuhi culprit theory. So he moved to discredit the theory completely, and frankly, the best way to do that was develop her character in episode 5. That bein gb said, I woildnt mind the ability to write good characters by accident myself.

Rokkenjima was an abandoned military base. Where they stored lots and lots of explosives.

But even without that, come on, it's not like explosives are hard to come by. I suppose a rich fellow like Kinzo could buy as much as he wanted in secret.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chron

As far as the mumbers? Jacob. As for walt? Went past his expiration date. The smoke? Its what happens when you dump a corpse in a river. And the ending was a fan throwback, and possible near death vb hallucination.

Yes, those were just examples, I'm not really all that curious about Lost. It's clear enough the writers of that series had no idea where they were going while writing the series.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chron

With regards to eva, her acting like a bitch is a part of tortured bitch mode, brought on by generic jealousy issues. She never is shown kissing up to kinzo, and her treatment of rosa and shannon simply fill trope roles.

Lust for power != tortured. She's power hungry before the incident, afterward she's tortured by the loss of her husband and son. She kisses up to Kinzo in the flashbacks in EP3 (by being a perfect daughter, getting perfect grades, beating Krauss at everything), even though Kinzo couldn't care less about her.

And just how exactly are "jealousy issues" generic? I can't even think of another character in all of fiction who acts like Eva does. Can you?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chron

Rosa may have some depth, sure, but its mostly what we as readers give it aside from the ridiculously late game revelation of her wanting maria's father back. That struck me as a hamfisted attempt at garnering sympathy.for her.

Everything about Rosa I listed in my previous post is explicitly explained in game. And I didn't even cover everything, there's also the trauma Rosa suffers because she killed Beatrice II, her feelings of being a failure due to her design company going bankrupt, her frequent "vacations" with rich clients, leaving Maria home alone.

And I don't think her wanting Maria's father back is ham-fisted at all. It's just an emotion that's buried very deep, because rationally she knows that he was only in it for her money. No one wants to look like a fool.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chron

Regarding natsuhi, I never said it was an accident. But that his hand was forced due to the apparent popularity of the natsuhi culprit theory. So he moved to discredit the theory completely, and frankly, the best way to do that was develop her character in episode 5. That bein gb said, I woildnt mind the ability to write good characters by accident myself.

Even if his hand was forced, does that somehow make Natsuhi less of a good character?

I mean, plenty of the other cast members had a lot of screen time, maybe it was just Natsuhi's turn? I've already shown how Rosa, Eva, and Maria are more than just shallow cutouts (in addition to Shkanontrice). I'm confident I could do the same for Battler. Maybe Erika, Geroge, Kyrie and Rudolf, too.

Regarding natsuhi, I never said it was an accident. But that his hand was forced due to the apparent popularity of the natsuhi culprit theory. So he moved to discredit the theory completely, and frankly, the best way to do that was develop her character in episode 5. .

Wait ... seriously?

People were seriously accusing Nats after EP2? Or EP3?
Based on what? I'm not gonna pretend I was able to solve very many of the murders on my own, but even I was able to rule Natuhi rather early.