BTW, I did say "personally". If you have confidence in the efficacy of a product based on the merit of an analysis of the source and message - then act accordingly. I am more than happy to be proven wrong. My over riding message is to always investigate truth claims when it comes to health benefits of products and to always follow the evidence.kind regards,

Ben

“No lists of things to be done. The day providential to itself. The hour. There is no later. This is later. All things of grace and beauty such that one holds them to one's heart have a common provenance in pain. Their birth in grief and ashes.” - Cormac McCarthy, The Road

Learn this from the waters:in mountain clefts and chasms,loud gush the streamlets,but great rivers flow silently.- Sutta Nipata 3.725

"For a disciple who has conviction in the Teacher's message & lives to penetrate it, what accords with the Dhamma is this:'The Blessed One is the Teacher, I am a disciple. He is the one who knows, not I." - MN. 70 Kitagiri Sutta

“No lists of things to be done. The day providential to itself. The hour. There is no later. This is later. All things of grace and beauty such that one holds them to one's heart have a common provenance in pain. Their birth in grief and ashes.” - Cormac McCarthy, The Road

Learn this from the waters:in mountain clefts and chasms,loud gush the streamlets,but great rivers flow silently.- Sutta Nipata 3.725

the flax seeds themselves contain toxic compounds that could possibly cause health problems in the long term. no one knows for sure, but I would suggest you avoid using the flax seed itself and use an oil. flax oil is also not suitable for cooking so the best way to consume it is either just pouring a little on your food or making/mixing it into a salad dressing (my preferred way).

Mojo wrote:It looks like researchers are still confused about the our ability to convert ALA to EPA and DHA and the benefit of ALA alone. I am more confused now.

yes, the research has been all over the place. some studies show adequate conversion and some show almost none. it will vary according to diet & genetics. that's why i (we) suggested a flax oil supplement with some added DHA. you can get them on iherb.com for cheap. if you're not ethically opposed to eating fish you could always just take some fish oil a few times per week.

variety of sources is KEY!

"It's easy for us to connect with what's wrong with us... and not so easy to feel into, or to allow us, to connect with what's right and what's good in us."

It's great that you've decided to go vegan! I was vegan for about 6 months last year until I changed to a lacto-ovo diet due to low energy levels.

As far a eating cheaply goes, carrots, dried beans and cauliflower are your friends. The nutritional value of these three are awesome. Getting a large pot and some large tupperware and boiling the beans yourself/mixing them with veggies before a meal is a great time/money saver. You can then combine them with white or brown rice or any of the whole grains (my favorites are millet and buckwheat). You can make relatively cheap daily smoothies by mixing orange juice with frozen strawberries as well. You can buy a decently-sized blender pretty cheap, for around $20-25.

You can pretty easily make your diet more robust by adding whatever fruits you like at the moment. Some of them also help out with promoting active bowel movements (Especially Apples). Apples, Bananas, and Kiwis are my top picks. I'd also advise doing a cheap parasite cleanse (Black Walnut, Wormwood, & Cloves Tincture; Diatomaceous Earth; and Thyme/Oil of Oregano), followed by a good probiotic regimen. This will take ~2months to do, but you'll feel a lot better for it.

I agree about the need to take some ground flax seed/flax oil. I would cut back on oils in general and go more for avocados (a good Omega 3 source) if possible. Also, almond milk is a delicious substitute for cow's milk. Nuts in general are going to be your friends while on a vegan diet.

Have you considered going gluten free? That might be an excellent option to choose, although it might make eating within your diet a bit more difficult.

Lastly, I would try to eat raw as much as possible. If you keep at a vegan diet and don't go too hard on the sweets, all of your food will eventually start to taste better and sweeter; the diet takes some getting used to.

Glad I came upon this post. Although not vegan and recently vegetarian (still eating eggs/milk/honey), I wanted to know if any of you could share some knowledge with me. I was a vegetarian in the past when I was in my early teens but got sick...ended up becoming anemic. I've become wiser and more careful since then lol plus there are now more options than just salad and tofu on the table!

I'm curious about the fish oil vs. flax/other oil for not only omega 3s but also the DHA/AHA? I know that fish oil has DHA if I am not mistaken, which deals with brain functioning/memory/eye sight...I am more concerned about this since I don't seem to have any issues with cholesterol or heart at this point. Overall I'm quite healthy and fairly fit (knock on wood). But, I want to ensure that I am getting the same benefit from another type of oil as I would from the fish oil, especially for the brain/eyesight aspect. Do any of you have any knowledge of this and comments? Is it impossible to get DHA from any other source but the fish? I still have a bottle of fish oil in my fridge as I have always been taking it on a daily basis so I intend on finishing it but would prefer not to have to go back to it if there are other options.

Furthermore, any vegan/vegetarian recipes you can all share that are filling and great for dinner? Hot and 'meaty' to keep you full? Always on the lookout for hearty veg meals. My husband is Indian...I'm Polish/Russian so I am always cooking south asian foods since the eastern europeans don't have all that many veg options....a few delicious ones, but not as many.

I eat flax, chia, and walnuts for ALA which the body can convert to DHA/EPA as it needs.

I also occasionally take algae supplements that provide DHA. Just search "algae DHA".

The best meal I've found for keeping full are rice/beans with some fat (olive oil) and some steamed vegetables. The grain that "sticks to the ribs" the most I've found to be oat groats. These are the least processed form of edible oats. I eat them with fruit, nuts, and seeds. You can get them on amazon.

"No tree becomes rooted and sturdy unless many a wind assails it. For by its very tossing it tightens its grip and plants its roots more securely; the fragile trees are those that have grown in a sunny valley."

I ran out of cheese a while back, and was dairy-free for a few days. Then, when I could buy some again, it tasted kind of 'off'. There was nothing wrong with this cheese, I realized that 'this is just how cheese tastes.' I started going off it naturally after that, and I've actually stopped buying it. I found the same thing with totally fresh butter. After a few days of a vegan diet, my body's initial reaction was, 'ew, that tastes odd'. But once again, there was nothing wrong with it, this was just how butter tastes. It's interesting how, if we eat a more pure diet for a while, that if we then taste something from an animal, we really notice it. I'm not saying animal products are bad, of course, just that I'm gradually going off them, that my body is responding in this way. (Still eating yoghourt for the good bacteria, and truly free-range eggs for the protein, however).

manas wrote:Still eating yoghourt for the good bacteria, and truly free-range eggs for the protein

Try diary-free probiotics for bacteria (Inner Health Plus dairy free) and for cholesterol and saturated fat-free protein - you can't beat beans and tempeh. Just take B12 tablet daily and you'll be fine.

“No lists of things to be done. The day providential to itself. The hour. There is no later. This is later. All things of grace and beauty such that one holds them to one's heart have a common provenance in pain. Their birth in grief and ashes.” - Cormac McCarthy, The Road

Learn this from the waters:in mountain clefts and chasms,loud gush the streamlets,but great rivers flow silently.- Sutta Nipata 3.725

This conversion may be better in those who do not eat EPA/DHA directly. Our bodies are incredibly smart: according to the study referenced in the link below, those who don't eat fish convert more ALA to DHA/EPA.

The body knows how much of what it needs. If you're eating fish and getting enough EPA/DHA, then there is no need for the body to waste energy converting ALA to more DHA/EPA than it needs. If you don't eat fish, then your body knows it has to synthesize the EPA/DHA it needs from ALA and will ramp this synthesis up.

A UK research group, led by Dr Ailsa Welch at the University of East Anglia, estimated dietary intakes and blood levels of ALA, EPA and DHA among 4,902 fish-eaters and non-fish-eating meat-eaters, vegetarians or vegans. Surprisingly, despite the significantly lower intakes of EPA and DHA among non-fish-eaters, their blood levels of EPA and DHA were much more similar to those of regular fish eaters.The researchers estimated the conversion of ALA into EPA and DHA by calculating the ratio of long-chain omega-3 fatty acids to plant-derived dietary ALA.This ratio was significantly greater in all the non-fish-eating groups than in the fish eaters, suggesting that in non-fish-eaters the body may compensate for the lack of EPA and DHA by boosting its conversion of ALA from plant foods.

Some really interesting points above. I've been vegan since 1984, which (in the UK, at least) means that for a lot of that time, most people I met casually didn't even know what veganism was.

I became vegan for ethical reasons - I worked for a time as a dairy herdsman, and didn't like what was going on in the industry. I never took any supplements, other than B12, and relied on the vague (and probably daft!) idea that if I mixed proteins and ate a good range of foods, then I would be OK. In fact, it has worked out fine so far. Fifty seven years old, everyone says I look a lot younger, three children, a demanding job, and (before the joints complained!) third Dan in a martial art. I have recently started taking a little ground flax seed because of all the publicity around it, but up until a couple of years ago I had never heard of it. I might of course have been very lucky health-wise, but I might also be a fit and healthy reason for vegans to drop some of their excessive worries. If I don't post for a while, someone might want to PM me to see if I have dropped dead due to my dietary deficits catching up with me!

Manas' points are very interesting. I am extremely aware of the smell of milk and egg products in food. For me, they are slightly repellent and just don't smell like food any more. The only time I knowingly deviated from the veganism was after a Vipassana retreat when there was a celebration and some Indian people cooked a big dish of sweet milky rice. Not wanting to disappoint them, and all too aware that "veganism" is just another identity to cling to, I indulged. Two hours later, I was wondering who had spilt the sour yoghurt on my clothes - a really cheesy and nasty smell which I couldn't shake off. I realised that I was actually sweating it out. It seems that I have lost the ability to digest milk etc., and now might lack the enzymes or whatever deals with it once ingested.

Anyway, that's just my story. Good luck with yours, and may whatever you eat bring you good health and happiness.

This conversion may be better in those who do not eat EPA/DHA directly. Our bodies are incredibly smart: according to the study referenced in the link below, those who don't eat fish convert more ALA to DHA/EPA.

The body knows how much of what it needs. If you're eating fish and getting enough EPA/DHA, then there is no need for the body to waste energy converting ALA to more DHA/EPA than it needs. If you don't eat fish, then your body knows it has to synthesize the EPA/DHA it needs from ALA and will ramp this synthesis up.

A UK research group, led by Dr Ailsa Welch at the University of East Anglia, estimated dietary intakes and blood levels of ALA, EPA and DHA among 4,902 fish-eaters and non-fish-eating meat-eaters, vegetarians or vegans. Surprisingly, despite the significantly lower intakes of EPA and DHA among non-fish-eaters, their blood levels of EPA and DHA were much more similar to those of regular fish eaters.The researchers estimated the conversion of ALA into EPA and DHA by calculating the ratio of long-chain omega-3 fatty acids to plant-derived dietary ALA.This ratio was significantly greater in all the non-fish-eating groups than in the fish eaters, suggesting that in non-fish-eaters the body may compensate for the lack of EPA and DHA by boosting its conversion of ALA from plant foods.

which is only an estimate and a preliminary study. It doesn't really prove anything. There would need to be well controlled, clinical trials to confirm the estimates made in that study and it even says so in the conclusion:

Conclusions: Substantial differences in intakes and in sources of n−3 PUFAs existed between the dietary-habit groups, but the differences in status were smaller than expected, possibly because the precursor-product ratio was greater in non-fish-eaters than in fish-eaters, potentially indicating increased estimated conversion of ALA. If intervention studies were to confirm these findings, it could have implications for fish requirements.

Do you have any links to well controlled, clinical, peer reviewed studies confirming these estimates? That would be interesting to see.

"No tree becomes rooted and sturdy unless many a wind assails it. For by its very tossing it tightens its grip and plants its roots more securely; the fragile trees are those that have grown in a sunny valley."

“No lists of things to be done. The day providential to itself. The hour. There is no later. This is later. All things of grace and beauty such that one holds them to one's heart have a common provenance in pain. Their birth in grief and ashes.” - Cormac McCarthy, The Road

Learn this from the waters:in mountain clefts and chasms,loud gush the streamlets,but great rivers flow silently.- Sutta Nipata 3.725