The goal of this is to give the Thief more sustainability by reducing the incoming damage as well as shortening fights by reducing the enemy's ability to heal.

Yes, this is basically a combination of lesser versions of Poison and Weakness. This is following the concept that the Deadly Arts traits Deadly Ambition and Lotus Poison: to weaken opponents by poisoning them (it makes sense).

Unlike the Deadly Arts traits, however, the new Debilitated condition (or effect if desired) does no damage to the target. It also does not negate critical hits. Additionally, it stacks in duration with a maximum stack of 2. What this means is that this condition is NOT lethal, it does NOT affect endurance, it does NOT negate critical hits, and while it has no cooldown, it is limited in duration. The damage output reduction also applies only to the Thief that applied the condition, making it much less effective than Weakness. If it does take the form of a condition (instead of an effect), then it should always be applied behind both Poisoned and Weakness, meaning those would be cleared first. Poisoned and Weakness would also overrule Debilitated, so the reductions do not stack.

This would reward aggressive Thieves. By keeping pressure on the enemy, you can shorten the fight by keeping them from healing regardless of the amount of damaging Poison application you have. You would gain the equivalent of Protection (against the target only) by maintaining pressure. However, if you do not maintain pressure, the duration is low enough to not be too debilitating to the target.

Yes, at first glance, it may seem way overpowered. But perhaps that's not the case in actuality. Thieves lack the sustain that others possess (health, armor, passives, blocks, boons, etc.)...

Even if you assume maintaining 100% uptime against the target (1 hit per second), you are reducing 25% of direct damage. If you looked at it as increasing your healthpool by the equivalent amount instead, you would increase it from 11,645 (baseline) to 15488 (compared to Marauder's 17245). That's even less than the medium healthpool of 15,922. That means you could actually play Berserker to get the extra Power instead of requiring the use of Marauder just to stay alive.

The Thief still lacks heavy armor, many passives, blocks, and Protection/Resistance boons... so it's still lacking in many sustaining abilities. The only lethality increases are completely indirect by allowing a more powerful Amulet and by the easier upkeep of healing reduction.

By doing this, Anet can then deal with the issues of "Immortal Staff Daredevils" and whatever else may arise without harming the Thief itself as a whole (there are now even calls to nerf the Shortbow of all things).

The whole purpose is to encourage Thieves to be aggressive, and to allow them to do so against the excessive amount of damage being put out without having to rely 100% on evades. It shouldn't break the game any more than the addition of the Marauder amulet or the Protection boon. And it does require constant pressure to maintain.

Even if you had to shave down the numbers (healing and damage reduction to 20%) or only allow a single stack (that would be renewed with each hit), then it would still give a big incentive for Thieves to maintain high pressure on their foe. And an aggressive Thief should be a happy Thief, not necessarily a dead one.

EDIT: Notice that both Poison and Weakness will OVERRIDE Debilitated. The healing and incoming damage reductions WILL NOT stack. Debilitated itself will only reduce healing when Poison is NOT also applied (Poison will always reduce healing when applied). Debilitated itself will only reduce incoming damage when Weakness is NOT also applied (Weakness will always reduce the incoming damage as normal when applied).

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Comments

This would be overpowered imo, definitely on DE but probably on DD too, because of the amount of damage reduction traits already available. When I'm capping towers solo, I take SA 333 CS 123 DE 111 (so not far off the ganky glass cannon traits), and I basically spam skirmisher's shot for malice then DJ as soon as reveal allows. I can easily build 7 malice in the 3s revealed window after a DJ because of the fast cast on skirmisher's shot, so whenever I'm revealed I have -10% damage from the lord because of mark, -33% damage from flickering shadows, protection from M7 so another -33% damage, and I'm healing 20% of my damage from invigorating precision. Daredevil doesn't have the protection access deadeye does, but with the damage reduction from weakness trait, dash and scrapper runes it might as well have. I can pretty much facetank a tower lord on marauder gear while maintaining max health already, an additional 33% damage reduction would be getting into silly levels of damage reduction imo.

Super busted. It's basically bumping the class to medium tier HP and provides a huge hit to enemy sustain all in one, especially given how there's already so much poison access on the class.

The thief is held back because there's just too much low-investment spammed control and damage by certain elite specs that also get to play very safely. That's pretty much about it. Nerf those, because they're also OP to most other options in-game, and the class becomes fantastic again.

@DeceiverX.8361 said:
It's basically bumping the class to medium tier HP and provides a huge hit to enemy sustain all in one

Yes, that's the purpose. The Thief lacks sustain, and others have too much. This shortens the fight (needed for PvP) and allows the Thief more chance to see the fight through before having to withdraw.

The thief is held back because there's just too much low-investment spammed control and damage by certain elite specs that also get to play very safely. That's pretty much about it. Nerf those, because they're also OP to most other options in-game, and the class becomes fantastic again.

That's why it's marked as a quick fix. Unfortunately, it's easier and more likely for the Thief to be brought up to the level of others than the others to be taken down to the level of the Thief. It's an arms race, I know, but that's how it seems to be going, unfortunately.

I guess the question is, when was the last time that the Thief was fantastic in PvP combat? It was before HoT. It was before the trait system changes. It was before I began playing.

@DeceiverX.8361 said:
Super busted. It's basically bumping the class to medium tier HP and provides a huge hit to enemy sustain all in one, especially given how there's already so much poison access on the class.

The thief is held back because there's just too much low-investment spammed control and damage by certain elite specs that also get to play very safely. That's pretty much about it. Nerf those, because they're also OP to most other options in-game, and the class becomes fantastic again.

Very much this. Thief is in a good spot for once, It just doesn't seem like it is some cases due to certain specs still over performing. If arenet tones down some of the OP specs the the rest will be inherently buffed so to speak and things will seem far more in line balance wise.

I'm a little more concerned with what is more likely:
1) Anet toning down the other overperforming specs (something they've been utterly failing to do since HoT)
or
2) Giving Thief some weird-kitten, wibbly wobbly buff as a band-aid fix so builds that deviate slightly from the meta don't immediately implode when faced with your typical spvp build (Something they've been doing to all classes since ever).

Considering their complete(? near ?) lack of communication.

This would be an excellent change for my d/p-rifle deadeye.

On the other hand, I would probably alt-f4 if I had to fight any of the meta thief builds that had this, or daredevil in any form.

Condi Thieves can already keep 100% uptime on heal reduction, and 65% uptime on damage reduction (100% with Daredevil) from those two traits alone. Not only that, but also deal a lot of damage and negate critical hits with them. In other words, Condi Thieves already have the sustain to stay in the fight, the ability to reduce the enemy's sustain, and can get full damage from their attacks. The Poison and Weakness also linger unless cleansed, meaning they don't have to stay as aggressive to keep up the heal/damage reductions.

Power Thieves can also get the base 60% uptime on heal reduction and 40% uptime on damage reduction (more if Daredevil) from those two traits traits alone, both of which are stronger than the Debilitated condition I suggested. The question is... has those two traits made Power Thieves (not Daredevil) overpowered fighters, especially in PvP? Can we get a consensus that the answer is no?

Not only that, but in order to get that sustain, Power Thieves are forced into Deadly Arts (which is a natural choice for Condi Thieves) instead of a truer Power-oriented traitline like Critical Strikes. Even taking Deadly Arts, to get that heal reduction rate (also an easy upkeep for the damage reduction), you're forced to give up other, more power-suited traits.

The other question to ask is this... what is keeping a Power Thief from being competitive as a fighter, in PvP especially? Isn't the general consensus is that it lacks the sustain to stay in a fight while other professions have too much in relation? The suggested Debilitated condition would exist purely to solve that. It does absolutely nothing other than allow an aggressive Thief to stay in a fight a little longer (Power benefits the most, Condi less, and Daredevils very little) and to reduce the enemy's ability to stay in a fight a little more (benefiting Power almost exclusively because Condi already does this). It does not damage the enemy (like Poison), it does not heal the Thief, it does not negate critical hits/effects or stop endurance regeneration (like Weakness). Its benefits do not stack with Poison/Weakness.

Debilitated requires constant application. If you let up at all, its effects wear off. It does not protect a Thief from an ambush... the Thief is just as vulnerable and fragile against them. It does not protect a Thief if outranged... the Thief is just as vulnerable and fragile. It does not protect a Thief in a team fight... the Thief is just as vulnerable and fragile to a target's teammates. The Thief is not protected from conditions... the Thief is just as vulnerable and fragile to them. The Thief MUST successfully strike whatever it is to gain the advantage of Debilitated from, and it must do so at a rate of once per second.

TL;DR: Debilitated gives the sustainability to aggressive Power Thieves that Deadly Ambition + Lotus Poison already gives to Condi Thieves, though without the lethality. Condi Thieves (especially Daredevil) already have the virtual-equivalent to Debilitated, and also with full condi damage/trait-synergy, where Debilitated would allow Power Thieves to build for full power-synergy.

My point is, if you make your suggestion baseline, then you just made Condi Thief overpowered since Poison and Debilitate will stack on top of each other reducing healing efficiency by 66% and making your target's damage output to mash potato.

As for your argument in sustainability, I would argue that Flickering Shadows has given me a lot of sustainability. Shadow Arts is no longer a stealth-only playstyle, but you can also take it for an active playstyle. If you spec Flickering together with Revealed Training, you effectively improved your staying power and damage output. This is not even counting the benefit from Deadly poison and Lotus.

The problem with the PvP is not about the Thief's sustainability, but the sustainability of other professions. Regardless of how much damage the Thief deals, it gets negated by passive and low cooldown heals and damage mitigation. Adding your suggestion to the mix will not solve this problem, it will only make it worst. It will only make everyone tanky and increase stalemates.

Scholars, for example, should not have damage mitigation since they have a lot of fire power. The Thief and other adventurers should be the one to take the Scholars out. The Soldiers then takes the Adventurers out in a rock-paper-scissor scenario. However, ArenaNet have developed the professions, especially the Elementalist, to be well rounded which broke the balance of the profession. Guardian is a rock that burns papers and blunt scissors...it shouldn't be this way.

I personally do not want Thief to be more tanky. I think ArenaNet has found the balance with the Thief. However, what I want to see is for stealth attacks to deal unmitigated damage. Meaning, Protection buff, Armor, damage reduction trait, etc. will do nothing to mitigate the damage. Of course they need to reduce the damage of the stealth attack to balance it out, but this will ensure that Elementalist and Necro cannot just bunker up while nuking.

@Sir Vincent III.1286 said:
My point is, if you make your suggestion baseline, then you just made Condi Thief overpowered since Poison and Debilitate will stack on top of each other reducing healing efficiency by 66% and making your target's damage output to mash potato.

First, I must officially say that mashed potatoes are absolutely wonderful, especially when served with brown gravy! :-D

Secondly, yes, that is very true. After rereading the initial post, I can see where it could have been easily missed, but the concept of Debilitated was always to be secondary, redundant, and much lesser versions of Poisoned/Weakness. And as such, it was meant to be placed after those two conditions, so the more devastating ones would always be cleansed first. Also, Debilitated reductions were to be superseded by those of Poisoned/Weakness (conditional on their presence), so they would not stack...

Basically, if a target had 1 second of Poison and 2 seconds of Debilitated, while both conditions are present in the first second, Poison's heal reduction (along with condition damage) will supersede the heal reduction of Debilitated, meaning the target only suffers Poison's normal 33% heal reduction. However, after the Poison wears off, Debilitated will still be present for another second. Now, the target will suffer from Debilitated's 33% healing reduction (the same rate as the second before), only there will no longer be any condition damage done.

The same will be true for the presence of both Weakness and Debilitated. Weakness will supersede Debilitated, so endurance reduction and true glancing blows (no critical hits) are in effect. However, once Weakness wears off, Debilitated's damage reduction will activate, which does not reduce endurance or create an immunity to critical hits.

As for Debilitated's damage reduction, I put it at a constant 25% to equate to Weakness's average damage reduction (though I believe Weakness is much stronger due to removing critical damage). However, if it is best to completely mimic Weakness' damage reduction, save for immunity to criticals, then have it remove a flat 50% of damage 50% of the time.

That is why I would suggest that balance wouldn't be automatically thrown off by this addition. Again, Condi Thieves can already get 100% Poison uptime and 65% Weakness uptime (100% with Daredevil). So if a Condi Thief selects Deadly Arts for the condition damage (and why wouldn't they?) then they would be gaining a possible 35% damage reduction from Debilitated, but only if staying aggressive, and Condi Daredevil would hardly benefit at all. If Condi Thieves/Daredevils did not take Deadly Arts or Expertise, then while they would gain healing/damage reduction uptime, they would be losing out on damage output and critical immunity/endurance reduction uptime. Where Power Thieves would be free to get the sustain without committing to Deadly Arts, allowing more viable versatility.

As for your argument in sustainability, I would argue that Flickering Shadows has given me a lot of sustainability. Shadow Arts is no longer a stealth-only playstyle, but you can also take it for an active playstyle. If you spec Flickering together with Revealed Training, you effectively improved your staying power and damage output. This is not even counting the benefit from Deadly poison and Lotus.
...
I personally do not want Thief to be more tanky. I think ArenaNet has found the balance with the Thief. However, what I want to see is for stealth attacks to deal unmitigated damage. Meaning, Protection buff, Armor, damage reduction trait, etc. will do nothing to mitigate the damage. Of course they need to reduce the damage of the stealth attack to balance it out, but this will ensure that Elementalist and Necro cannot just bunker up while nuking.

I can definitely understand that. My playstyle is very aggressive (too aggressive for what the Thief is capable of now). I'd love for the Thief to be able to punch straight through defenses (a trait in Critical Strikes, maybe?). Unfortunately, I may be in the minority. I'd prefer an encounter to be like a high-speed game of chicken... somebody is going to die, and they're going to die fast (relative to normal fights of today). Unfortunately, if someone does die quickly, it is consistently the Thief (in PvP, anyway).

My ideal Core Thief build would probably be Berserker Dagger/Pistol and Sword/Dagger with Deadly Arts/Critical Strikes/(new) Shadow Arts. Unfortunately, Trickery with Preparedness is so vital, especially to take advantage of the Stealth traits with D/P. And the Shortbow's mobility is also so vital, it's terribly limiting to Thief diversity as a whole. If Preparedness were made baseline, I could at least try with mobility runes.

Also unfortunate, it seems everybody hates getting hit by invisible Thieves, so doing anything to increase the effectiveness of Stealth Attacks may meet with a lot of resistance. I was thinking that the damage could be lessened (from all attacks in Stealth) if they were given very effective control abilities in order for the following visible attacks to gain a big advantage (perhaps also raising lethality of attacks when visible)... but I definitely like the idea of Stealth Attacks being able to punch through defenses.

What's sad is that I don't really have faith in Anet to make such changes to help the Thief out... even if there is a simple solution to balance the Thief up to the other professions. I definitely don't have faith in them to bring everything else back down to the level of the Thief.

Ps. I cannot stress how much I love Critical Strikes... especially in combination with Deadly Arts. Unfortunately, the third line must always be Trickery for me (if playing Core). But without Shadow Arts or Acrobatics, it's like I may as well delete myself... like throwing a snowball into Hell. Hmm, I think I want to get back on the topic of mashed potatoes! :-D

@Sir Vincent III.1286 said:
My point is, if you make your suggestion baseline, then you just made Condi Thief overpowered since Poison and Debilitate will stack on top of each other reducing healing efficiency by 66% and making your target's damage output to mash potato.

First, I must officially say that mashed potatoes are absolutely wonderful, especially when served with brown gravy! :-D

Secondly, yes, that is very true. After rereading the initial post, I can see where it could have been easily missed, but the concept of Debilitated was always to be secondary, redundant, and much lesser versions of Poisoned/Weakness. And as such, it was meant to be placed after those two conditions, so the more devastating ones would always be cleansed first. Also, Debilitated reductions were to be superseded by those of Poisoned/Weakness (conditional on their presence), so they would not stack...

Basically, if a target had 1 second of Poison and 2 seconds of Debilitated, while both conditions are present in the first second, Poison's heal reduction (along with condition damage) will supersede the heal reduction of Debilitated, meaning the target only suffers Poison's normal 33% heal reduction. However, after the Poison wears off, Debilitated will still be present for another second. Now, the target will suffer from Debilitated's 33% healing reduction (the same rate as the second before), only there will no longer be any condition damage done.

The same will be true for the presence of both Weakness and Debilitated. Weakness will supersede Debilitated, so endurance reduction and true glancing blows (no critical hits) are in effect. However, once Weakness wears off, Debilitated's damage reduction will activate, which does not reduce endurance or create an immunity to critical hits.

As for Debilitated's damage reduction, I put it at a constant 25% to equate to Weakness's average damage reduction (though I believe Weakness is much stronger due to removing critical damage). However, if it is best to completely mimic Weakness' damage reduction, save for immunity to criticals, then have it remove a flat 50% of damage 50% of the time.

That is why I would suggest that balance wouldn't be automatically thrown off by this addition. Again, Condi Thieves can already get 100% Poison uptime and 65% Weakness uptime (100% with Daredevil). So if a Condi Thief selects Deadly Arts for the condition damage (and why wouldn't they?) then they would be gaining a possible 35% damage reduction from Debilitated, but only if staying aggressive, and Condi Daredevil would hardly benefit at all. If Condi Thieves/Daredevils did not take Deadly Arts or Expertise, then while they would gain healing/damage reduction uptime, they would be losing out on damage output and critical immunity/endurance reduction uptime. Where Power Thieves would be free to get the sustain without committing to Deadly Arts, allowing more viable versatility.

As for your argument in sustainability, I would argue that Flickering Shadows has given me a lot of sustainability. Shadow Arts is no longer a stealth-only playstyle, but you can also take it for an active playstyle. If you spec Flickering together with Revealed Training, you effectively improved your staying power and damage output. This is not even counting the benefit from Deadly poison and Lotus.
...
I personally do not want Thief to be more tanky. I think ArenaNet has found the balance with the Thief. However, what I want to see is for stealth attacks to deal unmitigated damage. Meaning, Protection buff, Armor, damage reduction trait, etc. will do nothing to mitigate the damage. Of course they need to reduce the damage of the stealth attack to balance it out, but this will ensure that Elementalist and Necro cannot just bunker up while nuking.

I can definitely understand that. My playstyle is very aggressive (too aggressive for what the Thief is capable of now). I'd love for the Thief to be able to punch straight through defenses (a trait in Critical Strikes, maybe?). Unfortunately, I may be in the minority. I'd prefer an encounter to be like a high-speed game of chicken... somebody is going to die, and they're going to die fast (relative to normal fights of today). Unfortunately, if someone does die quickly, it is consistently the Thief (in PvP, anyway).

My ideal Core Thief build would probably be Berserker Dagger/Pistol and Sword/Dagger with Deadly Arts/Critical Strikes/(new) Shadow Arts. Unfortunately, Trickery with Preparedness is so vital, especially to take advantage of the Stealth traits with D/P. And the Shortbow's mobility is also so vital, it's terribly limiting to Thief diversity as a whole. If Preparedness were made baseline, I could at least try with mobility runes.

Also unfortunate, it seems everybody hates getting hit by invisible Thieves, so doing anything to increase the effectiveness of Stealth Attacks may meet with a lot of resistance. I was thinking that the damage could be lessened (from all attacks in Stealth) if they were given very effective control abilities in order for the following visible attacks to gain a big advantage (perhaps also raising lethality of attacks when visible)... but I definitely like the idea of Stealth Attacks being able to punch through defenses.

What's sad is that I don't really have faith in Anet to make such changes to help the Thief out... even if there is a simple solution to balance the Thief up to the other professions. I definitely don't have faith in them to bring everything else back down to the level of the Thief.

Ps. I cannot stress how much I love Critical Strikes... especially in combination with Deadly Arts. Unfortunately, the third line must always be Trickery for me (if playing Core). But without Shadow Arts or Acrobatics, it's like I may as well delete myself... like throwing a snowball into Hell. Hmm, I think I want to get back on the topic of mashed potatoes! :-D

I get where you're coming from now you've spelled out how you play etc, I can't help but feel but that's the point of playing glass tho, it's always going to be that squishy. ANet have done a good job at making the new shadow arts more of an all rounder defensive spec imo, not just for camping stealth, so making a change like you're proposing would give little reason to trait shadow arts at all. I do agree with preparedness limiting build diversity tho, just my two cents here.

You forgot to address one of my points;
"The problem with the PvP is not about the Thief's sustainability, but the sustainability of other professions. Regardless of how much damage the Thief deals, it gets negated by passive and low cooldown heals and damage mitigation. Adding your suggestion to the mix will not solve this problem, it will only make it worst. It will only make everyone tanky and increase stalemates."

Basically, there is no need for debilitate if ArenaNet simply make everyone less tanky.

I can definitely understand that. My playstyle is very aggressive (too aggressive for what the Thief is capable of now). I'd love for the Thief to be able to punch straight through defenses (a trait in Critical Strikes, maybe?). Unfortunately, I may be in the minority. I'd prefer an encounter to be like a high-speed game of chicken... somebody is going to die, and they're going to die fast (relative to normal fights of today). Unfortunately, if someone does die quickly, it is consistently the Thief (in PvP, anyway).

My ideal Core Thief build would probably be Berserker Dagger/Pistol and Sword/Dagger with Deadly Arts/Critical Strikes/(new) Shadow Arts. Unfortunately, Trickery with Preparedness is so vital, especially to take advantage of the Stealth traits with D/P. And the Shortbow's mobility is also so vital, it's terribly limiting to Thief diversity as a whole. If Preparedness were made baseline, I could at least try with mobility runes.

Yes, Preparedness should be baseline. Perhaps in a a near future, when ArenaNet choose to re-visit Trickery and revamp it, they will make a lot of the traits in there as baseline. With the addition of Preparation, I would assume that Trickery will be the trait line that will affect it. Probably the new effect for Preparedness when they make the +3 init baseline. Which makes sense.

Also unfortunate, it seems everybody hates getting hit by invisible Thieves, so doing anything to increase the effectiveness of Stealth Attacks may meet with a lot of resistance. I was thinking that the damage could be lessened (from all attacks in Stealth) if they were given very effective control abilities in order for the following visible attacks to gain a big advantage (perhaps also raising lethality of attacks when visible)... but I definitely like the idea of Stealth Attacks being able to punch through defenses.

Stealth attacks by no means invisible Thieves. So I disagree with that characteristic. What everybody hates is when Thief stays in stealth for longer than 3 seconds.

And yes, we should be the profession that punches through defenses. Steal it, remove it, break it. Warrior Spellbreaker is an insult. That's the Thief's job. They don't even do a good job at breaking spells.

What's sad is that I don't really have faith in Anet to make such changes to help the Thief out... even if there is a simple solution to balance the Thief up to the other professions. I definitely don't have faith in them to bring everything else back down to the level of the Thief.

A couple of years ago, most Thief players believe that the Thief is dead which includes me. I started playing Necro and Guardian. But now, with the recent changes, I'm back in my Thief. You gotta have faith.

Ps. I cannot stress how much I love Critical Strikes... especially in combination with Deadly Arts. Unfortunately, the third line must always be Trickery for me (if playing Core). But without Shadow Arts or Acrobatics, it's like I may as well delete myself... like throwing a snowball into Hell. Hmm, I think I want to get back on the topic of mashed potatoes! :-D

Yeah, DA is competing with CS for me right now and I cannot just take both. I have to have Shadow Arts for Flickering and my playstyle favors DA more than CS due to Revealed Training and Exec. And yes, Trick is staple for Core build, But I have to drop Trick for Elite Spec.

@Jugglemonkey.8741 said:
I get where you're coming from now you've spelled out how you play etc, I can't help but feel but that's the point of playing glass tho, it's always going to be that squishy. ANet have done a good job at making the new shadow arts more of an all rounder defensive spec imo, not just for camping stealth, so making a change like you're proposing would give little reason to trait shadow arts at all. I do agree with preparedness limiting build diversity tho, just my two cents here.

Yes, I love the thought of glass assassin builds. Well, I shouldn't say assassin, necessarily. But I do like the thought of ambushing a lone opponent, getting a good opening burst, and hoping that both makes the rest of the fight more even and also shortens the length of the fight so reinforcements won't force me to withdraw before the duel is over (my opponent may still win, but at least it's 1 on 1, and I'm fine with that).

When I started playing, it was in the D/P meta (right before the HoT/traitline changes), so there weren't super elites around. I can't even remember how I used to put points in the traits (like 5-4-2-0-5... or whatever it was back then), but it was pretty close to DA/CS/T (which is what I played after the change). I ran around with Traveler's Runes and without Shortbow... I was full combat-mode with both D/P and S/D. If one set wasn't effective against an enemy, the other one would usually do the trick. Alas, I miss those days where the basic opener was a Backstab from Stealth with Basilisk Venom... and it actually was effective.

You mentioned that you play Deadeye. It was fun in WvW (haven't gotten the hang of it in PvP) after the Silent Scope change (removing the ICD), but I'll even admit it was really too easy to play (before the nerfs) compared to the normal Thief. I was killing some kind of Super Platinum GodEmperor Commando (or however WvW ranks go) even after they got the first hit in without me even know they were there. Just dodge to Stealth, gain distance, the pew pew... he's down. Completely shocked me...

And that's what I don't really understand about Anet. I was extremely lethal as a Deadeye with Rifle from a very good range... even with Shadow Arts. I could 1v3 in the middle of an enemy camp even with enemy AI up. It didn't really matter the enemy profession... except other Deadeyes turned into a stalemate. And a few seasons ago, I had the same experience in PvP with Pistol/Pistol. I basically used the same build and tactics that I used for Dagger/Pistol. To my amazement, it was twice as effective as my Dagger ever was. Just because I didn't have to get into melee range or AoE spam fests on point. If it was a team fight, I could literally be one my way from Home to Far, and provide fire onto a target from the perimeter of Mid without ever stopping... and my target was usually down by the time I was on the other side of Mid, making my job as a decapper much easier and streamlined...

So it seemed that I was very effect as a ranged Thief just because I had so much damage output... but I didn't even have to expose myself. I didn't have to jump straight into the fire with melee. I can understand the safety of staying at range, but what I don't understand is the extreme lethality I had without the risk of melee... but when I do use a melee weapon (Dagger especially), my lethality goes way, way down. It's not simply that I couldn't sustain long enough to do damage... it's that my actual damage (when compared to ranged weapons) was so low, and so much more difficult to land in relation. Funny enough, my favorite fights are against other Thieves. While it may just be because I know the class much better than I know others, the fights seem to be much fairer and more balanced.

I guess that's the thing... I would really like to have the incentive to go into melee instead of ranged. But the risk/reward ratio seems to be way out of balance. There seems to be too much defense, too much sustain, too many obstacles that are primarily melee-oriented. I wouldn't mind running into that gauntlet if my melee attacks were hitting hard, but they aren't reliable enough to do so... at least not in my experience and opinion. And the incoming damage to me seems to be much too high (I do run Marauder or greater because I'm usually not insane) in comparison with my own outgoing damage.

I would be so happy to take DA/CS/SA for Dagger/Pistol right now... or DA/CS/Acro for Sword/Dagger... or even DA/CD/Elite. But that dastardly Trickery and its stranglehold on Preparedness... it's terribly frustrating. As the old saying goes, "you can't live with it, you can't live without it."

@Sir Vincent III.1286 said:
You forgot to address one of my points;
"The problem with the PvP is not about the Thief's sustainability, but the sustainability of other professions. Regardless of how much damage the Thief deals, it gets negated by passive and low cooldown heals and damage mitigation. Adding your suggestion to the mix will not solve this problem, it will only make it worst. It will only make everyone tanky and increase stalemates."

Basically, there is no need for debilitate if ArenaNet simply make everyone less tanky.

I must confess, I didn't really follow there. Do you mean that it would force the meta to adapt into a more tanky one?

I'm not saying that others are invincible. I can do some good damage to others (the glassier I am, the more I can do), but it's just not enough to put them down generally. By up-time of heal reduction, the damage I already do would be more effective, and by keeping up the "lesser Weakness," then I can take an extra shot or to before withdrawing or healing.

Again, I may not be following the reasoning of why everyone would become tanky.

Just as an aside here, one thing I really like about the concept of Debilitated is that it would really be focused on improving what a Thief should be about: 1v1 and 2v1 in the Thief's favor. But it would barely be an improvement at all in a teamfight because it really is a single-target focused condition. Sure, if a Thief gets lucky enough to cleave multiple foes, it would help, but that's really the fault of the enemy.

Yes, Preparedness should be baseline. Perhaps in a a near future, when ArenaNet choose to re-visit Trickery and revamp it, they will make a lot of the traits in there as baseline. With the addition of Preparation, I would assume that Trickery will be the trait line that will affect it. Probably the new effect for Preparedness when they make the +3 init baseline. Which makes sense.

I pray that happens soon! :-D

Which other (partial) traits do you believe should be made baseline? A lower ICD for Steal? Perhaps a single boon (stack) on Steal?

A couple of years ago, most Thief players believe that the Thief is dead which includes me. I started playing Necro and Guardian. But now, with the recent changes, I'm back in my Thief. You gotta have faith.

I will try to be strong! :-P

Yeah, DA is competing with CS for me right now and I cannot just take both. I have to have Shadow Arts for Flickering and my playstyle favors DA more than CS due to Revealed Training and Exec. And yes, Trick is staple for Core build, But I have to drop Trick for Elite Spec.

Indeed, I'm so used to 15 initiative, I usually run Trickery even with elites. I'm actually lost as to what to play these days, so it's all in flux. Just trying out different things, and seeing if old builds have any effectiveness anymore. But we shall see.

@Jugglemonkey.8741 said:
I get where you're coming from now you've spelled out how you play etc, I can't help but feel but that's the point of playing glass tho, it's always going to be that squishy. ANet have done a good job at making the new shadow arts more of an all rounder defensive spec imo, not just for camping stealth, so making a change like you're proposing would give little reason to trait shadow arts at all. I do agree with preparedness limiting build diversity tho, just my two cents here.

Yes, I love the thought of glass assassin builds. Well, I shouldn't say assassin, necessarily. But I do like the thought of ambushing a lone opponent, getting a good opening burst, and hoping that both makes the rest of the fight more even and also shortens the length of the fight so reinforcements won't force me to withdraw before the duel is over (my opponent may still win, but at least it's 1 on 1, and I'm fine with that).

When I started playing, it was in the D/P meta (right before the HoT/traitline changes), so there weren't super elites around. I can't even remember how I used to put points in the traits (like 5-4-2-0-5... or whatever it was back then), but it was pretty close to DA/CS/T (which is what I played after the change). I ran around with Traveler's Runes and without Shortbow... I was full combat-mode with both D/P and S/D. If one set wasn't effective against an enemy, the other one would usually do the trick. Alas, I miss those days where the basic opener was a Backstab from Stealth with Basilisk Venom... and it actually was effective.

You mentioned that you play Deadeye. It was fun in WvW (haven't gotten the hang of it in PvP) after the Silent Scope change (removing the ICD), but I'll even admit it was really too easy to play (before the nerfs) compared to the normal Thief. I was killing some kind of Super Platinum GodEmperor Commando (or however WvW ranks go) even after they got the first hit in without me even know they were there. Just dodge to Stealth, gain distance, the pew pew... he's down. Completely shocked me...

And that's what I don't really understand about Anet. I was extremely lethal as a Deadeye with Rifle from a very good range... even with Shadow Arts. I could 1v3 in the middle of an enemy camp even with enemy AI up. It didn't really matter the enemy profession... except other Deadeyes turned into a stalemate. And a few seasons ago, I had the same experience in PvP with Pistol/Pistol. I basically used the same build and tactics that I used for Dagger/Pistol. To my amazement, it was twice as effective as my Dagger ever was. Just because I didn't have to get into melee range or AoE spam fests on point. If it was a team fight, I could literally be one my way from Home to Far, and provide fire onto a target from the perimeter of Mid without ever stopping... and my target was usually down by the time I was on the other side of Mid, making my job as a decapper much easier and streamlined...

So it seemed that I was very effect as a ranged Thief just because I had so much damage output... but I didn't even have to expose myself. I didn't have to jump straight into the fire with melee. I can understand the safety of staying at range, but what I don't understand is the extreme lethality I had without the risk of melee... but when I do use a melee weapon (Dagger especially), my lethality goes way, way down. It's not simply that I couldn't sustain long enough to do damage... it's that my actual damage (when compared to ranged weapons) was so low, and so much more difficult to land in relation. Funny enough, my favorite fights are against other Thieves. While it may just be because I know the class much better than I know others, the fights seem to be much fairer and more balanced.

I guess that's the thing... I would really like to have the incentive to go into melee instead of ranged. But the risk/reward ratio seems to be way out of balance. There seems to be too much defense, too much sustain, too many obstacles that are primarily melee-oriented. I wouldn't mind running into that gauntlet if my melee attacks were hitting hard, but they aren't reliable enough to do so... at least not in my experience and opinion. And the incoming damage to me seems to be much too high (I do run Marauder or greater because I'm usually not insane) in comparison with my own outgoing damage.

I would be so happy to take DA/CS/SA for Dagger/Pistol right now... or DA/CS/Acro for Sword/Dagger... or even DA/CD/Elite. But that dastardly Trickery and its stranglehold on Preparedness... it's terribly frustrating. As the old saying goes, "you can't live with it, you can't live without it."

Tbh I'm of the opinion that it's necessary for ranged to be an option for thief given the AoE spam meta (I'm a WvW player primarily, for context), and I agree that DE did it's job too well pre silent scope nerf. It feels about right now tho, and the damage is good. A large part of that is rending shade imo, that one trait makes such a difference on DE it's unreal as it means almost every DJ is going to be ignoring protection, that is worth way more than anything CS can offer in competitive settings. I run SA trickery DE which makes me something of a rarity, although I don't understand why since it's arguably one of the best duelling specs for DE at the moment. You get much more damage from CS over trickery and you can afford to drop trickery because of M7, but if they can counter the big hit you've got nothing else. The extra ini and boon steal from trickery also gives any spec a flexibility that is sorely missed otherwise. I usually run S/D as my offset as it's reliable and I never much liked D/P, sword covers a lot of the weaknesses of DE, giving malice gain through unblockables if necessary, evades and a good port.

I duelled a holo in my guild earlier today both on acro staff daredevil and on DE, and the difference was huge. On daredevil I lost every duel, as I couldn't deal with his sustain, staying in range was a royal pain and sooner or later I'd fail to dodge something meaty, but on DE I won every duel, I could easily out damage his heals and pressure him due to the much more reliable boonsteal. Vault was hitting him for 5k, DJ was hitting for 10k with full malice, and the daredevil build had 360 more power due to swindler's equilibrium and staff mastery. Sure I'm not one shotting him but as you say, it's a safe build.

Honestly tho, I do think the problem is less that melee thief is weak and more that boons and damage mitigation on other classes doesn't make it worth the risk. 20k backstabs are possible on daredevil, every now and again I get blown up by one that catches me out, but that's a rarity. As I said earlier, I can get 33% damage reduction while revealed, protection and 10% reduction from mark, even thief has loads of % damage modifiers these days, so imo it's not enough to try to brute force past defensive effects with glass traits, that approach simply doesn't work vs competent enemies with decent builds unless you're going for the full ganky assassin playstyle and you get lucky. You need to deal with the protection boon and build for reliability over high numbers these days imo, dagger has always been a pure DPS weapon so it can't deal with bunkers like sword builds can, and until damage reduction across the board is toned down I don't see that changing tbh.

@Jugglemonkey.8741 said:
I get where you're coming from now you've spelled out how you play etc, I can't help but feel but that's the point of playing glass tho, it's always going to be that squishy. ANet have done a good job at making the new shadow arts more of an all rounder defensive spec imo, not just for camping stealth, so making a change like you're proposing would give little reason to trait shadow arts at all. I do agree with preparedness limiting build diversity tho, just my two cents here.

Yes, I love the thought of glass assassin builds. Well, I shouldn't say assassin, necessarily. But I do like the thought of ambushing a lone opponent, getting a good opening burst, and hoping that both makes the rest of the fight more even and also shortens the length of the fight so reinforcements won't force me to withdraw before the duel is over (my opponent may still win, but at least it's 1 on 1, and I'm fine with that).

When I started playing, it was in the D/P meta (right before the HoT/traitline changes), so there weren't super elites around. I can't even remember how I used to put points in the traits (like 5-4-2-0-5... or whatever it was back then), but it was pretty close to DA/CS/T (which is what I played after the change). I ran around with Traveler's Runes and without Shortbow... I was full combat-mode with both D/P and S/D. If one set wasn't effective against an enemy, the other one would usually do the trick. Alas, I miss those days where the basic opener was a Backstab from Stealth with Basilisk Venom... and it actually was effective.

You mentioned that you play Deadeye. It was fun in WvW (haven't gotten the hang of it in PvP) after the Silent Scope change (removing the ICD), but I'll even admit it was really too easy to play (before the nerfs) compared to the normal Thief. I was killing some kind of Super Platinum GodEmperor Commando (or however WvW ranks go) even after they got the first hit in without me even know they were there. Just dodge to Stealth, gain distance, the pew pew... he's down. Completely shocked me...

And that's what I don't really understand about Anet. I was extremely lethal as a Deadeye with Rifle from a very good range... even with Shadow Arts. I could 1v3 in the middle of an enemy camp even with enemy AI up. It didn't really matter the enemy profession... except other Deadeyes turned into a stalemate. And a few seasons ago, I had the same experience in PvP with Pistol/Pistol. I basically used the same build and tactics that I used for Dagger/Pistol. To my amazement, it was twice as effective as my Dagger ever was. Just because I didn't have to get into melee range or AoE spam fests on point. If it was a team fight, I could literally be one my way from Home to Far, and provide fire onto a target from the perimeter of Mid without ever stopping... and my target was usually down by the time I was on the other side of Mid, making my job as a decapper much easier and streamlined...

So it seemed that I was very effect as a ranged Thief just because I had so much damage output... but I didn't even have to expose myself. I didn't have to jump straight into the fire with melee. I can understand the safety of staying at range, but what I don't understand is the extreme lethality I had without the risk of melee... but when I do use a melee weapon (Dagger especially), my lethality goes way, way down. It's not simply that I couldn't sustain long enough to do damage... it's that my actual damage (when compared to ranged weapons) was so low, and so much more difficult to land in relation. Funny enough, my favorite fights are against other Thieves. While it may just be because I know the class much better than I know others, the fights seem to be much fairer and more balanced.

I guess that's the thing... I would really like to have the incentive to go into melee instead of ranged. But the risk/reward ratio seems to be way out of balance. There seems to be too much defense, too much sustain, too many obstacles that are primarily melee-oriented. I wouldn't mind running into that gauntlet if my melee attacks were hitting hard, but they aren't reliable enough to do so... at least not in my experience and opinion. And the incoming damage to me seems to be much too high (I do run Marauder or greater because I'm usually not insane) in comparison with my own outgoing damage.

I would be so happy to take DA/CS/SA for Dagger/Pistol right now... or DA/CS/Acro for Sword/Dagger... or even DA/CD/Elite. But that dastardly Trickery and its stranglehold on Preparedness... it's terribly frustrating. As the old saying goes, "you can't live with it, you can't live without it."

@Sir Vincent III.1286 said:
You forgot to address one of my points;
"The problem with the PvP is not about the Thief's sustainability, but the sustainability of other professions. Regardless of how much damage the Thief deals, it gets negated by passive and low cooldown heals and damage mitigation. Adding your suggestion to the mix will not solve this problem, it will only make it worst. It will only make everyone tanky and increase stalemates."

Basically, there is no need for debilitate if ArenaNet simply make everyone less tanky.

I must confess, I didn't really follow there. Do you mean that it would force the meta to adapt into a more tanky one?

I'm not saying that others are invincible. I can do some good damage to others (the glassier I am, the more I can do), but it's just not enough to put them down generally. By up-time of heal reduction, the damage I already do would be more effective, and by keeping up the "lesser Weakness," then I can take an extra shot or to before withdrawing or healing.

Again, I may not be following the reasoning of why everyone would become tanky.

Just as an aside here, one thing I really like about the concept of Debilitated is that it would really be focused on improving what a Thief should be about: 1v1 and 2v1 in the Thief's favor. But it would barely be an improvement at all in a teamfight because it really is a single-target focused condition. Sure, if a Thief gets lucky enough to cleave multiple foes, it would help, but that's really the fault of the enemy.

Yes, Preparedness should be baseline. Perhaps in a a near future, when ArenaNet choose to re-visit Trickery and revamp it, they will make a lot of the traits in there as baseline. With the addition of Preparation, I would assume that Trickery will be the trait line that will affect it. Probably the new effect for Preparedness when they make the +3 init baseline. Which makes sense.

I pray that happens soon! :-D

Which other (partial) traits do you believe should be made baseline? A lower ICD for Steal? Perhaps a single boon (stack) on Steal?

A couple of years ago, most Thief players believe that the Thief is dead which includes me. I started playing Necro and Guardian. But now, with the recent changes, I'm back in my Thief. You gotta have faith.

I will try to be strong! :-P

Yeah, DA is competing with CS for me right now and I cannot just take both. I have to have Shadow Arts for Flickering and my playstyle favors DA more than CS due to Revealed Training and Exec. And yes, Trick is staple for Core build, But I have to drop Trick for Elite Spec.

Indeed, I'm so used to 15 initiative, I usually run Trickery even with elites. I'm actually lost as to what to play these days, so it's all in flux. Just trying out different things, and seeing if old builds have any effectiveness anymore. But we shall see.

PS. By the way, guys, thanks for the dialogue! :-D

S/D works out well in wvw on most builds because it can evade out of circles with untargeted flanking strike coupled with it's boon steal on top of trickery, rending shade, and other boon steal can keep me in melee longer but stripping a target of everything under quickness gets me in and out of circles faster anyway. You can have more than one resource pool to stagger out your evades and blinds. I fight upfront a lot on rifle still anyway because that's just how fights snowball but Snipers Cover is nice to roll over and gives blind also.