unconditionally, the absolute keyword. hopeless, surely the consequence. & all the girls are in love with being in love. why can't a woman love someone while keeping both feet on the ground at the same time? why?! what does it take for an oestrogen driven creature to go without her daily dosis of testosterone? total utter passivity, robbing her blind, complete domination, verbal abuse, cheating, a good fucking beating?? are we really -that- fucking incomplete? do we -really- depend on those tiny moment *someone* takes the effort to make us feel alive & like we're worth living? is it self-confidence, or self-respect that's lacking in the female homo erectus? a deep gaping hole that needs to be filled with the presence of Him? or are we just addicted to the love-hormone once we've tasted it?

while I'm typing this, millions of women are dreaming of that someone being out there, that someone that belongs to them & to no one else. the One. like Matrix's fucking Neo. what's worse is, that while I'm typing this, millions of girls are knowingly with someone who doesn't deserve her. I don't get it. I really don't.

a friend of mine recently broke up with her depressed boyfriend, who wouldn't get out of bed, who quit his studies, who didn't have a job, who kept borrowing her money, untill she had nothing left, who was crawling around in self-pity so much, he even forgot to call her for weeks & weeks sometimes. years of promises went by; "I'll start with my study psychology next year. & I'll take a job, of course. I'll pay you back every penny I ever borrowed from you. I'll call you more often. I'll ask you how your day was. I'll be more interested. I love you."

& she loved him too. they were together for five years. FIVE fucking years of her life. five years of promises before she hit the age of 21. & it's not even her confidence in herself that is lacking, because she's a happy, active, confident girl in life. then WHERE did that gaping hole come from, that she so desperately felt like she needed him to fill it up?

whenever I asked her why she was still with him, she said; "I love him. he's so sweet. & I know he loves me too. he'll change, he has to." I admit the guy's sweet & very obviously loves her, but are THESE our conditions nowadays? "I'm looking for someone sweet to love me"?

right now he owes her over 500 euros, he's still job- & studyless & he still hardly ever gets out of bed. looking back, she doesn't understand how on earth she ever managed to love him so much, that she wouldn't leave him for five years. a boy, just a boy, without any positive personality qualities, except being sweet. no future dreams, no present dreams, no nothing. I just can't wrap my mind around it.

I know many single & non-single girls that say; "if my boyfriend would hurt me, even if it's only once, I'd leave him". a nice theory, but practice tells us otherwise. because when high on love-drug, we assure ourselves that we make such a great difference in that someone's life, we can actually *change* them. or that they'll change, grow up & suddenly become somewhat responsible. & what does it take to see someone's true character can't be changed?

five years, obviously.

just my thought for today. & of course I wasn't talking about the entire female race, though I generalised writing this. just a whole bunch of them.

the_GoDdEsS

11-12-2005, 05:14 AM

Being in love and being in a partnership are two essentially different things. As long as you're in love only, it is what you have described and it doesn't happen to females only. Chemicals, hormones and the like. Guys get it too even though it's not necessarily the same.

And actually expecting someone to change won't do it because the person has to feel like they want to change themselves too. Sure you can be their motivation or support but there's more to it coming from the person alone. You know hormones are not a stable thing and you won't be all lovey dovey and sweet all the time because eventually you'll move in together and have to face real life and live like partners and love each other like partners, not just two silly careless teenagers who think everything is rainbows and butterflies.

JoY

11-12-2005, 05:22 AM

I know my friend's boyfriend was sincere when he said he wanted to change & she's tried so much (so hard, lolz) to support him & help him all ways she could. it was just.. wasted time. because he essentially IS the bum she got so sick & tired of. after approximately 2.5 years love hormones disappear from your bloodstream. meaning she wasn't just being IN love. she was genuinely loving. to the point it almost distroyed her spirit. it happens so much, that someone gets lost in the other & somehow it's mostly females this happens to, that it just kind of freaks me out. I know it's kind of happened with me before too & it took me a LOT to rip myself away from it.

the_GoDdEsS

11-12-2005, 05:24 AM

I understand. But it happens to a few guys too, trust me. And not just the emo ones. Plus, guys don't make a drama out of things on the outside.

Sin Studly

11-12-2005, 05:26 AM

I read part of that but there weren't any boobs or explosions so I gave up.

JoY

11-12-2005, 05:36 AM

I forgot to say Justin's not allowed to reply. well, he is, but he isn't.

<3 ;p

Simmah, I know what you mean & I know you're right. but doesn't *everyone* pretend to the outside world that everything is fine, peachy & all lovey-dovey?

wheelchairman

11-12-2005, 07:02 AM

a homo erectus is not a homo sapien...thus not human.

That's my contribution to the topic.

the_GoDdEsS

11-12-2005, 07:07 AM

Sapiens. *giggle*

wheelchairman

11-12-2005, 07:14 AM

Sapiens makes you giggle? but not erectus? jeez what did Amsterdam teach you?

TheUnholyNightbringer

11-12-2005, 07:16 AM

About your friend with the self-pitying guy - I think a woman's maternal instinct has a lot to do with it. The maternal instinct is a built-in function to look after what you care for and obviously she did so.

And for the record, it's not just women. WHenever I get a girlfriend I go giddily happy and it takes a LOT, usually, before I feel I have to break up with them. There've been exceptions but mostly I prefer the happy giddy feeling, even if I have to convince myself that it's there.

JoY

11-12-2005, 07:58 AM

About your friend with the self-pitying guy - I think a woman's maternal instinct has a lot to do with it. The maternal instinct is a built-in function to look after what you care for and obviously she did so.

And for the record, it's not just women. WHenever I get a girlfriend I go giddily happy and it takes a LOT, usually, before I feel I have to break up with them. There've been exceptions but mostly I prefer the happy giddy feeling, even if I have to convince myself that it's there.
I agree & totally get what you mean. I have the same. with my last boyfriend I really just convinced myself I was in love, when I really wasn't. because it took me no trouble at all to end it, when it didn't appear to work out. (I wonder why ;p) I sometimes catch myself now doing the same with my current boyfriend, when the feeling seems to be gone. the only difference is that it originally *was* there & it always unexpectedly turns up every now & then to last for another good period of time.

Per; WATTA HOMOS.

Megs

11-12-2005, 08:12 AM

i know what you're on about with the whole "*sighs* i'm so in happy and in love and...*sighs again*" but it's true women seem to need a guy there, like a sense of erm....maleness.....and if they're like not there suddenly it's like a huge bump from the happy feeling. um. you're not going to be able to make any fucking sense out of this, but still. i hope you get my point, that i agree with basically all that you just said. i mean, i stayed with a guy for 9 months on and off, only because i didn't like being without him. it felt sort of...wrong. but i've so say "got over" him now.

EDIT: but even then, it's probably because i have someone else.

JoY

11-12-2005, 08:18 AM

I think Dave made an excellent point to; the maternal instinct. women, or at least me, do feel they need to take care of people. I know many girls who take the problems of others on their own shoulders, desperately trying to help them. I'm also one of those, that can't watch a person unhappy, or not feeling well. no matter if their problem is physical, or not. I just.. care. without even knowing why in most cases.

killer_queen

11-12-2005, 10:19 AM

like Matrix's fucking Neo.
Awww. My exact thought.
Anyway, how do you know guys don't feel the same things when they are in love? I've always thought guys are more sensitive than girls. People always say that love is blind. Well, this is fucking true. I'm not sure girls can see all the little and big problems about their relationships or boyfriends.
And TUNB is right. I get very excited when people I know have problems. I just love helping, love taking care of them. I wish I had a boyfriend that I can spend my time on helping him to get over his problems. But guys are just not in that way. They want to stay alone with their problems and get over them alone "like a real man". That's annoying.

Nicole

11-12-2005, 10:41 AM

Some women never stoop that low, some women learn from their mistakes, and some women think that they don't deseve better.

I've been having chats with one of the girls in my course. She's 23 and she's dating a 48 year old. She has a kid and she doesn't like the way he treats her sometimes and her daughter, who is 4 or 5. He gets drunk all the time and she constantly complains that he's drunk all the time and that she wants to leave him. She feels that he talks down to her because of the massive age gap and he doesn't understand that it hurts her that she lost a baby and had a really fucked up life. I've been doing this course for almost 5 months and she still hasn't left him. The trouble is she's the best she's ever had (which says a lot about the previous guys) and she thinks she doesn't deserve better, and that somebody better wouldn't understand or like her.

Personally I've made mistakes and thought people would change and they didn't. I did have low self esteem and put up with it, but it's all a growing experience. Unfortunately some don't.

HornyPope

11-12-2005, 12:19 PM

Bella makes a very good point. I've seen girls stick by a worthless bum and abuser and alcoholic for years at a time. Makes me wish I could murder each and one of those filthy bastards and free them, but the stupid girls want none of it. They look for those very rare "happy" moments in their misery to keep the relationship going.

Betty

11-12-2005, 12:55 PM

The maternal instinct is a key point for sure. I have to take care of my boys. But then, they have to take care of me too.

I don't even really know what to add to this discussion since so many good points have already been made.

One comment is that it can TOTALLY be reversed to the male point of view. It's not just women who stay with terrible guys, but a lot of guys stay with terrible women. Who mentally abuse and take advantage of them and who are generally bitchy. And like, there are terrible people out there in general and in a lot of cases maybe they just come together out of desperation and from each individual's point of view, their partner isn't perfect, but as a partner they are far from perfect as well. It IS sad when fantastic people stay with losers though just because they don't know any other way.

And you know that thing you talked about? Being in love? That tingley excited feeling? That elation you feel everytime you see them/talk to them/think about them? Yeah, I think I could go for some of that. It's been a while and I have the urge to feel that way again. It might be a little harder to find this time around though.

Endymion

11-12-2005, 01:08 PM

psh, you have nothing to worry about michelle. you're the coolest kid in school and brilliant to boot.

Izie

11-12-2005, 02:48 PM

Haha, let's see. Why do we stay with people who don't deserve us? Well, for one, habit. You're used to having someone around, you can't really imagine your life without them. And here's the second point - fear. Michelle said it well - "I'm not sure it'll be that easy to find this time around", and that's it. It's more difficult to find every time around, but in my experience, every next time you fall in love it's stronger. Not that you're less rational every time, just that you're more willing to make it work. Covering up for previous failure? Maybe.

Maybe we feel our time is running out and people worth our time are hard to find so we stick with what we have because we're too scared to be alone. Because we are all afraid of ending up alone, even if only subconsciously.

Now, I'm one of the people who will try and try and try until every single of my limits is crossed, but once they're crossed... We're done. It takes a lot, but it IS possible. It has happened.

I don't believe people change. I believe only people who are already extraordinarily good can actually change some of their traits for the better. Maybe I don't even believe it's change, it might just be a temporary compromise. God knows I do those. If I change, I'll change for myself, and I'm pretty sure that's the case with everyone (otherwise it's just lies). I've wanted to change for people, I actually honestly did, but guess what? I failed quite miserably. I don't want to change for someone, if they need me to change then they don't need ME, they need someone else. So either live with it or fuck off. Same goes with me. When I can't live with it anymore, I fuck off.

The only problem here is when, I suppose. We all have limits. It's just scary how far some people allow themselves to be pushed and manipulated until they decide it's time to say when. Some of us are too scared to say when, I suppose. We need someone to need us. Someone to love us. I don't know why. If I did, my life would be very simple, heh.

I can say when. It's utterly terrifying though. But doable. Boo.

/rant.

Note to self: don't attempt serious posts when tired/just back from work.

JoY

11-12-2005, 03:14 PM

Bella makes a very good point. I've seen girls stick by a worthless bum and abuser and alcoholic for years at a time. Makes me wish I could murder each and one of those filthy bastards and free them, but the stupid girls want none of it. They look for those very rare "happy" moments in their misery to keep the relationship going.
exactly. if I ever would've told my friend her boyfriend was a total bum, she would've been mad at me for weeks for sure. I just figured she had to discover it for herself. it's still lame, though. frustrates me.

Izie - I don't believe in changing personalities either. I just believe in improving them. definitely not changing them. if your boyfriend is a depressed, hopeless fucker, lying around all day, taking your money for rent.. he'll never be -that- much good.

I'll get to the other points later, but first I've got to entertain my non-worthless guy.

JoY

11-13-2005, 07:45 AM

Awww. My exact thought.
Anyway, how do you know guys don't feel the same things when they are in love? I've always thought guys are more sensitive than girls. People always say that love is blind. Well, this is fucking true. I'm not sure girls can see all the little and big problems about their relationships or boyfriends.
And TUNB is right. I get very excited when people I know have problems. I just love helping, love taking care of them. I wish I had a boyfriend that I can spend my time on helping him to get over his problems. But guys are just not in that way. They want to stay alone with their problems and get over them alone "like a real man". That's annoying.
clichés aren't always true, but there's always some truth in them. "love is blind" & yes, it is. like you said. & as for girls not seeing the problems in their relationship/boyfriend.. I guess it's most of the times a bunch of little problems they -do- see, but erase as not being relevant, or meaningless. & as it all piles up they end up in a relationship in which they keep having to ignore little things. I guess the line of what can be ignored & what really can't be ignored just fades. & after years of ignoring, it feels unfair to suddenly say it bothers you, because you never said that before, because you were ignoring it. I think some people just make themselves blind & like staying as ignorant/naive as possible, just because it's convenient.

does that make any sense? it does in my head. :/

& trust me, you don't want a boyfriend you need to help out all the time. it's peachy, normal & human if sometimes he has a problem, or two, or three even, but wah.. a boyfriend with a bunch of problems is REALLY not what you're looking for. *shudders*

JoY

11-13-2005, 07:49 AM

Some women never stoop that low, some women learn from their mistakes, and some women think that they don't deseve better.

I've been having chats with one of the girls in my course. She's 23 and she's dating a 48 year old. She has a kid and she doesn't like the way he treats her sometimes and her daughter, who is 4 or 5. He gets drunk all the time and she constantly complains that he's drunk all the time and that she wants to leave him. She feels that he talks down to her because of the massive age gap and he doesn't understand that it hurts her that she lost a baby and had a really fucked up life. I've been doing this course for almost 5 months and she still hasn't left him. The trouble is she's the best she's ever had (which says a lot about the previous guys) and she thinks she doesn't deserve better, and that somebody better wouldn't understand or like her.

Personally I've made mistakes and thought people would change and they didn't. I did have low self esteem and put up with it, but it's all a growing experience. Unfortunately some don't.in her case it's definitely a huge self-esteem problem-thing. meh, I feel bad for her. I knew a girl in a very similar situation & just seeing the relationship absolutely demolishing her spirit was just horrible. can't you try to talk to her? well yeah, although of course it IS her own business. but maybe she just needs a little push, or just someone who cares, or whatever.

Tizzalicious

11-13-2005, 07:51 AM

Haha, let's see. Why do we stay with people who don't deserve us? Well, for one, habit. You're used to having someone around, you can't really imagine your life without them.

Totally true. It's just hard to leave someone when you are used to being with them, even when they are scum. And if you do, it's hard to realise you are better off without them, because you are alone, and you are used to being with them, and you start forgetting how lousy they were, and start missing them.

I guess that's all I have to add here, most has been said.

JoY

11-13-2005, 08:05 AM

so maternal instinct, habit, chosen ignorance, low self-esteem & the love for love are all reasons, I guess. [hah, everyone contributed so much =)] did I leave anything out? but what has happened to our boundaries, instinct for what is right/wrong, knowledge (theory, or practice, it does make a difference) & reason?? why do some girls just choose to stick with someone terrible for so long, they (almost) lose their complete identity? why are women so fucking irrational sometimes? it's just.. arrrgh. fucking stupid.

Sunny

11-13-2005, 10:13 AM

Personally, as someone who was stuck in a destructive relationship for quite a while, I can't really criticize that kind of behavior. Well, my reasons for putting up with it were.. the usual. low self esteem ("i don't deserve better anyway") and fear of ending up lonely. And, of course... the hope that I can change him and live happily ever after. :] It went on for quite a while without actually accomplishing anything... it was a cycle of crying, hurt, listening, believing, trying, trusting, only to be proven wrong again. Looking back at it, I don't understand how I could've been so ridiculously dumb. I tried to change him and I gave gave and gave, my love and trust and patience, til I ended up empty-handed. And then there was nothing left to say or do or feel, except for the overwhelming urge to kick him in the balls.

And Iz, you talk about boundaries and instinct. I'm afraid that in my case both were completely compromised because I thought it was "worth it".

it wasn't.

ya know something funny, i'm still in touch with the man in question. and I don't feel resentful in the slightest... in fact, I don't feel anything towards him. There's not a single positive or negative emotion in me when I see him. It's sort of a funny feeling. I suppose he used up his quota for this lifetime. =p

i like to think i learned from my mistakes. i hope i never get to find out if i actually did.

Nina

11-13-2005, 12:15 PM

I dunno if this has already been said...but I dont think one can generalize it like that. Not all female human beings are like that, and with "not all" I do mean that a whole lot of women actually aren't. I've heard enough stories of girls taking advantage of their boyfriends in the worst-freaking-way ever.

Having said this...I agree with and relate to everything that Sunny said.

Offspring7

11-13-2005, 12:38 PM

so i finally took the time to read this thread and i'm amazed with some of the thought processes. i've never had a real boyfriend, and i constantly feel incomplete without that extra male in my life. i don't know why it feels like this, but i'm going with the low self esteem. i don't think highly of myself, and i feel like i need a guy to confirm i'm pretty, cool, smart etc. and if i got one, i would stick with him as long as i could, even prolonging feelings that aren't really there just because i'd be afraid i wouldn't be able to find another. the maternal instinct is a good point, but i don't know how much that has to do with actual relationships, maybe just the abusive relationships. and i don't think that made much sense.

Izie

11-13-2005, 12:41 PM

And Iz, you talk about boundaries and instinct. I'm afraid that in my case both were completely compromised because I thought it was "worth it".

I compromised mine. To a point. The thing is, I never think I don't deserve better and it's just not worth it if I'm not happy. Then again, I'm just geenrally selfish to no end (allright, that's a lie, I'm extremely giving to a point, but from that point I'm extremely selfish, and with me it's quite a clear boundary).

I don't know how women stay in a relationship that doesn't make them happy. I'm all pro being happy, and if it's not working the way it should be... Well, there we go. Either fix it or find a new one. *shrug*

It's only worth it if there's a GOOD chance of it making me happy (hence no illusions of changing people).

Fuck I'm selfish/cynical these days.

Sunny

11-13-2005, 12:43 PM

I dunno if this has already been said...but I dont think one can generalize it like that. Not all female human beings are like that, and with "not all" I do mean that a whole lot of women actually aren't. I've heard enough stories of girls taking advantage of their boyfriends in the worst-freaking-way ever.

Having said this...I agree with and relate to everything that Sunny said.

i'm glad you agree, but not glad that you relate... because it's a shitty thing to go through. ;z

i also agree about the generalization thing. i myself know plenty of males who kept coming back to their lying, cheating, emotionally abusive whorebag girlfriends and kept getting used and hurt again and again. it's not a specifically female thing to do.

Nina

11-13-2005, 12:44 PM

Fuck I'm selfish/cynical these days.

I dont see how that makes you selfish. Everyone tries to be happy in their life, why should you be any different and call yourself selfish for feeling the need to be happy? You're completely right, if a relationship doesnt make you happy, you need to end it.

the_GoDdEsS

11-13-2005, 12:46 PM

Maybe it does have something to do with the roles. When females love somebody, they feel like taking care of them whereas males feel like protecting the one they love? Maybe?

Sunny

11-13-2005, 12:46 PM

Again, I agree with Nina. you don't sound cynical or selfish, actually, you make perfect sense. =p

Izie

11-13-2005, 01:20 PM

Yeah, but I used to be a happy little give-all-I-can bundle of joy. Now I'm just me again. Maybe that's a good thing though :p

Anyway, wowza Sim, women protect! I mean take care, protect, it's quite similar, and I dunno, I do take care, but MAN, do I protect! Don't you EVER try to hurt someone I love, I'll dig your eyes out!

the_GoDdEsS

11-13-2005, 01:35 PM

I'm more into eyescratching. =P

Izie

11-13-2005, 01:36 PM

Yeah, that. I'm a bit braindead today.

JoY

11-13-2005, 03:07 PM

I agree with Nina. life IS about being happy. =) if you won't take your concerns into account, who will? never expect someone else to look after your happiness, take it into your own hands. you can spend a lifetime making someone else happy, but if you aren't, it's wasted time. everybody's got to be selfish to some point.

that's exactly why I don't get why so many women have gone through/go through such incredibly shitty long lasting relationships. I'm not saying it's all girls & that it's never the other way around. I tried to level things with the last line in my original post, because I could see those reactions coming. I have two female friends who absolutely don't seem to have any trouble taking advantage of people. why they're my friends? because they're goddam loyal to me & they accept it if I correct their behaviour, or something. or just, well.. disagree. they accept me & I accept them. anyway.. they're both 'single', but I'm absolutely certain they can tear a man's heart apart.

still it only seems to be men with a bad self-esteem problem that stick to worthless girls. in girls' case it doesn't even have to be a self-esteem problem. like killer_queen pointed out (sorry, I STILL don't know your actual name, babes) she'd take care of a guy with a bunch of problems & I think many girls are that way.

*sigh* there won't be a true solution to this problem anyway, will there? maybe in my little head females are just more irrational than they really are, or maybe this bbs represents them real fucking badly with a bunch of well organised, responsible, rather powerful women. I think the girls that replied in this topic, or at least most of them, definitely belong in that last category.

Sunny

11-13-2005, 03:38 PM

like killer_queen pointed out (sorry, I STILL don't know your actual name, babes) she'd take care of a guy with a bunch of problems & I think many girls are that way.

that might be true, but I don't necessarily think guys (or girls) with problems are an automatic no-no. Maybe I'm saying this cause I'm a big bundle of issues and I like the fact that someone is willing to help me deal with them. But generally, I don't think it's the problems themselves that should be a big flashing warning sign. It's more the willingness to change yourself, the ability to acknowledge that there are problems, the desire to combat them, and a certain amount of empathy towards your partner that matter... and if the person with problems lacks those, that's where real trouble starts.

JoY

11-13-2005, 11:59 PM

I fully agree with that.

& I myself am not really the most problemless type either. :/ but that's okay.