Paul Piet, Los Angeles County Deputy Sheriff, testified that in response to a call from Michael Erwin he arrived at 964 Old Topanga Canyon Road in Malibu on July 31, 1969. He discovered the body of Hinman lying on the floor of the living-bedroom-type room. It was badly decomposed. Investigation disclosed a bullet hole in the kitchen cabinets. Near the body were Buddhist prayer beads known as "Jizu." Blood was on the body and clothing and splattered around the inside of the house on the walls and furniture. Written in apparent blood on the living room wall were the words "Political Piggy" and a drawing that appeared to be like a paw print of an animal.

An autopsy established that Hinman had been stabbed twice in the chest; that the cause of death was a stab wound through the heart. There was a large cut on the left side of the face through the left ear to the left lip of the mouth, which could have been caused by a sword. [71 Cal.App.3d 13]

On and for some time prior to September 1, 1969, Manson was the leader of the so-called "Manson family." People v. Manson, supra, 61 Cal.App.3d 102, describes the composition, activities and modus operandi of the Manson family and need not be repeated here.

A fingerprint of Beausoleil, who was a member of the "Manson family," was found in Hinman's house on a door frame between the kitchen and the hall. A nine millimeter bullet was recovered from under the sink which could have been fired from a nine millimeter Radom gun. Hinman's Fiat station wagon was seen at the Spahn Ranch, where the Manson family lived, fn. 4 on July 28, 1969, by Deputy Sheriff George D. Grapp and other officers.

Beausoleil was found in the Hinman Fiat station wagon on Highway 101 in the San Luis Obispo area on August 6, 1969, by Forest J. Humphry of the Highway Patrol. Beausoleil was arrested. After Hinman's Fiat was impounded, officers found a knife in the rear spare tire well under a rubber mat.

Ella Jo Bailey testified for the People that she had known Manson since 1967 and travelled extensively throughout the southwestern United States with him, Mary Brunner, Patricia Krenwinkel and Lynne Fromme, and that they moved to the Spahn Ranch in 1968 where she met Davis and Beausoleil. Several times during May and June 1969, Manson talked to Bailey and others about "going out" to get money to buy dune buggies to go to the desert to live.In July of 1969 Manson talked to several members of the family about the need to get money and names were discussed of various persons from whom they could get money. Hinman's name was discussed and the fact that he owned a house and stocks and bonds. On July 26, 1969, Manson told Bailey and Bill Vance that he wanted them to go to Hinman's house and persuade him to join the "family" or sign over all of his property and automobiles.Vance said he had better things to do and walked away. That night at about 6 p.m. Bailey saw Manson talking to Beausoleil and Davis. Beausoleil had a knife (People's exh. 18) and Davis had a nine millimeter Radom gun (People's exh. 30). Subsequent investigation by officers established that Davis had purchased the gun under an assumed name. Bailey saw Brunner and Atkins dressed in dark clothes. Bailey saw Brunner, Atkins, Beausoleil and a fourth unidentified person drive off in [71 Cal.App.3d 14] a ranchhand's car which was driven by the fourth person. Davis was still in the parking lot.

Two nights later Bailey saw Brunner and Atkins drive up to the Spahn Ranch in a Volkswagen microbus which Bailey had previously seen in the possession of Hinman. Bailey went with Brunner in the microbus to a eucalyptus grove on the Spahn Ranch. Bailey observed that there was no key in the microbus and the ignition wires had been wired together. On the seat of the microbus Bailey saw a purse with $27.64 in it. With Bailey's help, Brunner wiped off the microbus. The next morning Bailey saw Hinman's Fiat station wagon at the Spahn Ranch. Later that morning Bailey saw Manson in the presence of about six other people carrying a sword. Bailey testified:

"Charles [Manson] stated that after the phone call had come to the ranch asking for help, fn. [5] he and Bruce Davis had gone to Gary Hinman's house, and he stated at the time that they arrived, Mary [Brunner] and Sadie [Atkins] and Bobby [Beausoleil] had gotten the gun back away from Gary Hinman.

"He stated that he had words with Mr. Hinman, and they had a heated argument, and then it became necessary for him to quiet Gary Hinman down, and he stated that he used a sword and cut Gary Hinman from his left ear down to his chin. ...

"He also said that he had quieted Gary down, and the girls put Gary in bed, and that Mr. Hinman asked for his prayer beads and after that he said that he had left Bobby to finish up. ...

"He said that two or three shots had been fired at the house. He also said that Bobby was foolish to ever let Sadie hold the gun on Mr. Hinman. ...

"He said that all they had gained from going to Gary's house were the two vehicles and around $27."

Alan Leroy Springer testified that he spent a night at the Spahn Ranch about August 10 or 11, 1969. In effect Manson tried to recruit him to join the family. Manson explained how they got things: "Well, we will go up to the door and knock on the door of their houses, and when they come [71 Cal.App.3d 15] to the door and open it up, ... we'll just do them in or stick them. ... Everything behind the door is yours, then, ... for the taking." Manson said that he had "whacked a guy's ear off; ... a Hinman." Manson said that he took Hinman's truck away from him. Manson said: "Well, we cut this guy's ear off" and somebody asked "Who was that?" and Manson said "That was Hinman."

On August 10, 1971, while the instant case was on trial, during the testimony of Springer and while the prosecutor and Manson's lawyer were at the bench conferring with the judge, Manson who was seated at counsel table leaned over to Sergeant Paul J. Whiteley, fn. 6 who was also seated at counsel table and said (according to Whiteley's testimony): "Springer is lying. I've never met the man. He just jumped on." Whiteley said: "I didn't put you at the Hinman house. Mary Brunner did." Whiteley then testified further:

"And then Mr. Manson stated, 'Sure, I went to Hinman's house and got the gun and sliced his ear. I don't deny that. I told Bobby [Beausoleil] how to stand up like a man. He had a woman's thoughts. I told him what to do -- no. [Interruption] ...

"Uh -- 'I told him what to do. Hinman deserved to die. He was selling bad dope.'

"And then there was a pause, and he said, 'He was greasy.'

"And that's the end of the statement."

Whiteley's testimony was corroborated by the testimony of Officer Clifford Patrick Blackburn who overheard the counsel table conversation between Manson and Whiteley except that Blackburn testified that Manson said: "... I held the gun on him, and -- I told Bobby ... [Bobby Beausoleil] -- to kill him. And I even showed him how to do it. ... it wasn't really a conversation. ... Manson did all the talking." When the court was trying to determine whether Manson's statements to Whiteley were made voluntarily, Blackburn testified in chambers that about a week previously Manson had made a similar voluntary statement to Whiteley. [71 Cal.App.3d 16]

When Manson testified fn. 7 in support of a motion to suppress the testimony of Whiteley and Blackburn, he also corroborated the conversation stating: "In general Mr. Whiteley's statements were right. ..." He admitted going to Hinman's house, that he took the gun away from the guy "... and I had to cut him." and he requested the girls to stay there and clean the place up and clean Hinman up. Manson testified that he didn't look at Whiteley as "anything but a brain that I could program. And I dropped a lot of information in his head that would be useful to me later on." Manson testified that he talked to Whiteley "Every chance I get." Some of the conversations occurred in the presence of Manson's lawyer. The court concluded that Manson's statements to Whiteley were not solicited by Whiteley and that they were freely and voluntarily given by Manson for some purpose of his own, and that they were spontaneous. The court said that it had witnessed conversations between Manson and Whiteley at counsel table while Manson's lawyer was seated between them. [71 Cal.App.3d 17]

Marius John Arneson testified that in 1969 he lived at the Spahn Ranch, that he left the ranch and returned in late July or August 1969, that Beausoleil drove him and Manson in a white Fiat station wagon to look at a Volkswagen microbus which was on the Spahn Ranch, that Manson gave him Hinman's Volkswagen microbus which had to be "hotwired" to drive, that Manson gave him a pink slip and instructed him that if he ever got in a hassle over the registration to say that he had gotten it from a Gary Hinman who was supposed to be a Black Panther.

Brunner was called as a witness by the People. By means of prior inconsistent statements (a transcript of her testimony at the trial of People v. Beausoleil, supra), fn. 8 the People established that in the latter part of July 1969, around midnight, Brunner, Beausoleil and Atkins were driven to Hinman's house by Davis. Beausoleil asked Hinman for money. Hinman said he did not have any.Beausoleil pulled a gun. Beausoleil and Hinman got in a fight in the kitchen. Beausoleil hit Hinman over the head more than once with the gun. Hinman's head was cut and bleeding. Beausoleil asked Brunner to clean up Hinman and gave Atkins the gun to hold on Hinman. Beausoleil went into the living room. Hinman took the gun away from Atkins. Beausoleil returned to the kitchen and resumed the fight with Hinman. During the struggle the gun discharged and a bullet went under the sink. Manson and Davis entered the house. Manson had a sword. Manson and Hinman struggled in the living room. Brunner was in the kitchen. Manson came into the kitchen with his finger cut. Brunner bandaged Manson's finger and went into the living room where Atkins was bandaging Hinman's ear. Hinman's ear was cut in two and he had a cut running down his cheek. Manson and Davis left Hinman's home in Hinman's Fiat station wagon. Atkins, Brunner and Beausoleil stayed at Hinman's house Saturday and Sunday for two days and nights. During this period Atkins answered the telephone and, using an English accent, told the callers that Hinman had gone to Colorado because one of his parents was sick.

Jay Hofstadter and Richard Siegel testified that they telephoned the Hinman home. Hofstadter testified that he telephoned Saturday, July 26, 1969, that a female answered the phone and said that Hinman had gone back to Colorado because his parents had gotten in an automobile accident. The girl said she came from London. She spoke with a British [71 Cal.App.3d 18] accent. Siegel called on Sunday, July 27, 1969. Siegel testified to the same effect.

Brunner's prior testimony also established that during the two-day period that Atkins, Brunner and Beausoleil stayed at Hinman's house, Hinman lay bleeding and sleeping. Atkins, Brunner andBeausoleil searched the house for things of value. They found "about twenty bucks" and two pink slips and two white slips to the cars. Beausoleil had Hinman endorse the pink slips. While Atkins and Brunner were in the kitchen, they heard a noise and rushed into the living room and Brunner found Beausoleil with a knife in his hand. Hinman had been stabbed. He was bleeding from the chest. They cleaned the place up obliterating fingerprints. Hinman went into a coma. Beausoleil said it was all over. Hinman then started breathing with a "loud raspy breathing." Beausoleil put a pillow over Hinman's head. He asked Brunner to hold it. Brunner did so for about two minutes and gave it to Atkins. They left Hinman's house in his Volkswagen which they had to "hotwire." Brunner took the nine millimeter Radom gun with her.

66 comments:

Well it's obvious that the only people who claim that Gary was making/dealing drugs was Charlie & Bobby.

The reality is what I've said before. Charlie thought Gary had money and he wanted it. He sent Bobby to get it. Had nothing to do with a "bad batch" of drugs.

End of that story. Gary didn't make or sell drugs. Gary was getting ready to leave the country for search of inner peace with his religion. But Bobby's "god" cut that short.

I think about that VW bus that's still out there, carelessly wrecked and disgarded, rusting and deteriorating, going slowly back to mother earth, much like Gary himself was, by this lecherous band of killers. A bus that Gary was probably very proud of. That he obviously kept in good condition.

Gary was nothing but nice to these people. And this is how they repaid him. And they had no remorse.

katie you're right gary was killed because manson heard he had money from ella jo. even if gary was manufacturing drugs (a lot of people, especially chemists were at that time) he was murdered over money.

Katie there was also besides the supposed money they wanted from Gary a matter of 1000 dollars of bad LSD that Bobby aquired from Gary and then sold to the Bikers, who in turn complained and wanted Bobby to get their money back. I know you dont believe this to be true, but I do believe that story since there where too many ppl who talked about it. I think Charlie wanted money as well and it was all part of the whole scenario. I dont think drugs had to do with any of the other murders, but I do think that Frykowski did do some small time dealing with the MDA and it was known in Hollywood that Jay in the past had gotten good drugs ( I dont what kind, perhaps coke) but I know an old hairdresser whom worked in his shop who is in his 80s now and still works in a shop on Santa Monica and Fairfax once in a while even though he is retired and he told me (I know his son) that Jay did in fact always had, and supied (on a small time level) "good drugs". It is not uncommon for people to move drugs on a small time level just to make a few extra thousand bux once in a blue moon. Also I saw that clipping of the Gary wife and it was a tabloid piece since Gary was not married and believed to be fabricated.

I received the following email (below) today, from an individual named "Riley"..

Although this individual has contacted me in the past under various names.. I honestly have no idea who this person actually is.How would I?Therefore, I make no assertions or assumptions, as to this persons validity or authority on this topic.

This individual surfaces every time the topic of Hinamn arises, and claims to be a relative.That's his/her prerogative.I have absolutely no problem with that, at all.It's an open forum, and he/she is most welcome.Bear in mind however... as I said... I have no way of confirming or disproving his/her claim (of being a relative).

I'm quite certain that he/she has posted under the names Molly and Miranda in the past... as well as contacting me under at least 2 email names... if memeory serves correctly.

As I said...I make no assertions or assumptions, as to this persons validity or authority on this topic.

Bottom line:This person could be a relative of Gary's, or not... I honestly have no idea.

If my bloggers are communicating with others (off-blog), as this message (below) suggests... I admonish all to exercise both caution and discretion.

-----------------------------------

Riley Writes:

"Since the comments have to be approved on your blog.I will answer some of these questions for you.

1. There are no other homicide reports on Gary that I know of I have checked into this already.

2. Gary had no Mescaline Lab in his house. Sanders book is the only source that quotes this and it is false.

3. Gary did not sell bad drugs nor was he a dealer. I think you know this since you have read Bobby and Bruce's letters.

4. Gary did not have Inheritance Money. Only a small amount he put aside for emergencies.

5. Gary did have a small drug problem (Pot) He eventually went into recovery program and received help. Right after that he went into Buddhism.

6. Gary and his wife were divorced in 1967. They did not have a friendship after this. The article Katie is asking about is false.

7. Gary was killed because he did not give them money. I know people don't want to believe it. But these are the facts. I'm sure Bruce and Bobby will confirm. PVM is wrong.

8. Gary's personal life is really nobody's business. Such as his exwife and their relationship. He did have a girlfriend at the time of his death but she had moved out of state a few weeks before his death for a new job. I am talking about PVM777 she did not know Gary.

9. I hate rehashing my relatives murder and personal life on the blogs.

10. Yes he was going on a trip to Japan and that is why he didn't have any extra money to give to Bobby and Charlie. Charlie is lying and making the victims at fault for their deaths. Katie is correct.

11. I don't hate Bobby or Bruce and I am semi-friendly with both.

12. I wish I could comment on the blogs but I can't it makes me feel uncomfortable and I have told Katie and Beauders this.

13. Gary was hardly a person who would want any media attention at all. He was very private and would not want his name in the news constantly. I have alreadly discussed this with an attorney.

14. Some things I am not able to talk about right now. But I will answer any questions I can. But I do not want Gary's life being made a circus like everyone on the blogs do.

15. I don't think drugs applies to any of the murders. At least that's what I am told. None were killed due to a drug burn.

16. I really appreciate Katie and Beauders helping me. They are both very nice people.

He needs to provide facts or else. I am serious herehe is nuts. you people are bent on making Gary a badguy just so you look good"

-----------------------------

Lynyrd Replies:

Hi Riley.I have no interest n bad-mouthing Gary,, and have absolutely nothing to gain (personally) by doing so... and I haven't.I posted the related documents, and that's it.

Starship is gentlemanly to all, and has never caused any problems online.I've known him for years.He's far from being a callous trouble-maker.

Riley... this is just a discussion.I apologize if the subject matter is sensitive to you.I haven't seen anything outrageous or outlandish posted... and, I'm certain no one is taking pleasure or personal interest, in making Gary look bad...

I also recieved an email from a "dhhatz" from gmail. I dont know if it is the same person. I dont ever think I called Gary a "DEALER". A DEALER is someone whom deals drugs regularly, kind of like a career. I do not think that Gary delt drugs as a career. I believe Gary was an extremely nice, generous person, Music teacher, student, player who got mixed into the wrong crowd due to his generosity. One transaction does NOT make someone a frickin "dealer". I got that information from a book/s and articles that were written and "ALLEGEDLY" friends of friends of friends type thing- SO OF COURSE that infomation may be wrong, but going after a blog member and emailing them personally instead of writing all this to the blog itself is a waste of time. Why cant this "dhhatz" person who claims they want to clear up Garys reputation write the information on the blog. That way it would reach more people than just one resident of L.A. Enclosed is the copy and pasted email (I dont know if LSB is going to allow it)Also maybe if we all can dig up all the places/books/articles that say this about Gary so that dhhatz will know who to go after. LIKE FOR INSTANCE THE PEOPLE WHOM PUBLISHED THE INFORMATION INTO CIRCULATION Like I said, I am just a resident, not an author and UNLIKE some people IF I were writing a book I would NOT print that Gary was a drug dealer, but I would point out that it has been said.......And if you are a relative of Gary's and you want to clear his name up I invite you personally to be on the TLB radio show and you can clear anything you want up! EMAIL #1-"You are not an expert on Gary's life. So stop repeating your bullshit lies.Listen up I am one of Gary's relatives. I know for a fact he wasn't a drug dealeryou don' t know shit other than you are just another washed up Manson Blogger.I have spent hours trying to clear his name up and I am not going to let some idiot blogger fuck things up for me. Keep your mouth shut regarding Garybecause you don't know shit about him Really. I have already confirmedthe whole drug dealer thing with a few of the killers. Too bad you don't know your facts."

EMAIL #2-"I bet you wouldn't like it if everyone thought your relative was a piece of shitdrug dealer would you? people like you really piss me off. Maybe you can gettogether with A.C. fisher you seem to have alot in common.

I happen to think Gary was a nice man who did nothing wrongother than befriend his killers who took advantage him.He was a much better person than you will ever be. please stoptalking about Gary as if you know him personally because frankly youdon't. You have no proof either so stop repeating bullshit about Gary.

I hope your Happy because I am really pissed off."

Once again Mr or Ms D Hatz- you are going of on the wrong person and good luck clearing Gary's rep up, I sincerely mean that.

Hey Lynyrd- just incase you dont print those emails that were sent to me and that really is a relative of Gary's Perhaps they would like to clear Gary's name up in our TLB Star City Radio show! That way everyone can hear their side!

Paulina...love ya Babe, but I'm not convinced that Gary manufactured any drugs, good or bad. Charlie made this up in a "CYA" move. Some people talk about it because some people like to think Charlie tells the truth. He doesn't....

There was no drug paraphernalia found in Gary's house when the police investigated his murder. Now, some people like to say that maybe he got rid of it because he was going to Japan. I say..why would he do that? If this was his income why dispose of it? He had no way of knowing that the cops would be in his house.

Okay, I figured the ex-wife story was fake. That's what I was going to talk about. It made no sense anyway.

Paulina, I don't doubt that Jay had some "good drugs". Doesn't mean he was dealing.

The cops found drugs in his car. I never said he didn't TAKE drugs...just that he wasn't dealing. I know you think that maybe he was dealing "small time" but there really isn't any evidence of that. "Possessing drugs" and "dealing drugs" are way different.

It's a well known fact that Jay was in debt. That can't be disputed. But to me, it would seem that if he was a successful drug dealer, he would be "rolling in dough", not broke.

>>>Starship said: Yes, Katie, the police have it that Hinman was a known user of lsd, mescaline and piote. Solid place to start.>>>

What police report said that?

>>>Also, he majored in chemistry.>>>

So majoring in Chemistry = Drug Dealer???? What am I missing?

>>>And it's said he along with another couple who lived with him for a bit (rumor) that they manufactuired synthetic drugs in the basement...rumor.>>>

Yes I've read that silly nonsense. There wasn't any drug manufacturing equipment in the basement. Unless all you need to make mescaline is some dusty empty boxes, a rusty hot water heater, a light bulb, a gallon of gas, some cobwebs and some snubbed-out cigarette butts. LOL.

I agree with you. I'll say again what I've said before about Gary Hinman.

I think that Gary Hinman was just a super nice guy. He went out of his way to help Bobby, Mary and other family members because he had a good heart. Unfortunately, he was too nice. He befriended people who ultimately took his life.

Bobby & Charlie decided to come up with this "bad drug" crap to make them look less heinous. It didn't work. They still got the death penalty.

If you want to even read anything Susan said about Gary's death (which is so ridiculous because it changed every time she told the story), she did mention that he was so peace loving that he gave the gun back after he got it away from her. That, unfortunately, was his last mistake.

It says in the transcript on this thread that Ella Jo said she saw Bobby, Mary & Susan get in the car with a "4th person" and drove off that night. Bruce was still in the parking lot. So I'm assuming it wasn't Bruce who drove them there.

Bruce was involved later because he and Charlie drove to Gary's house after Bobby called up whining that Gary wouldn't give him money. That's how Bruce was involved.

PLEASE FOLKS... PAULINA... AND EVERYONE...LET ME MAKE A FEW THINGS CLEAR:

Molly...aka Miranda... aka Riley... aka Patrick Walsh... aka DHHatz... comes out of the woodwork EVERY TIME Gary Hinman is discussed on my blog.

If ANYONE infers, implies or suggests that Gary, so much as MAY have been involved with drugs... He/She takes immediate action, and begins contacting me.

This person wants me to ENSURE that the subject of Gary and Drugs, is forever banished from the blogs... put to rest... and never discussed again.Not just here mind you... but, on ALL the blogs.

Here's the Rub:

This individual (Molly/Miranda, etc) gives me WAY too much credit.

There's no way I can personally convince EVERY blogger in cyberspace, that Gary's death did not involve drugs.There's no blogger in cyberspace, who has that kind of clout.Bottom line... I'm really not sure what this Molly/Miranda wants from me?

This individual is quite cordial, when I sympathize.But... let someone on my blog make ONE inference about Gary and drugs... and he/she turns into Mr. Hyde!The insults and uncomfortable veiled threats start flying.

--------------------------------

Paulina:If you want to interview this person on Starcity Radio... be my guest.It could be quite revealing.We either have a bonafide family member here, with legitimate information and insight... and understandable sensitivity to this subjetc.OR... we have a raving lunatic.Maybe your radio show, could shed some light on which of the two options we're dealing with here.I'd seriously recommend pre-recording this interview."Live" may not be such a great idea, with this one.

--------------------------------

I PERSONALLY have never stated point-blank that Gary was killed over drugs.I also, have never PERSONALLY seen any documentation which clearly illustrates that assertion.That's not to say such documentation DOES or DOESN'T exist.I can't be EVERYWHERE and read EVERYTHING at all times!I'm here to learn like everyone else... and truth be told... I haven't even had a chance to read all the documents on this very thread yet! LOL

----------------------------

Does anyone have any clear-cut sources regarding Gary and drug-dealing?

If so... please share them here.

----------------------------

Lastly...

What Molly/Miranda HAS to understand, is that I DO NOT personally AGREE with EVERY post which is made on this blog... nor, do I DISAGREE with all, either.It's an open forum, where hopefully facts will emerge.I cannot be held PERSONALLY responsible for every opinion expressed here, as being my own.I also CANNOT control the opinion of EVERYONE who visits here (or elsewhere)... much as Molly/Miranda believes...

-------------------------------

I personally believe that Gary was most likely killed over money (not drugs), as Beauders suggested.I believe 'they" went there looking for money, and when things got "messy", Beausoleil got afraid and acted in haste.What others believe is their prerogative and business.I don't claim to be the final word (or authority) on this subject, by any means.

Lynyrd, I agree with 1000 percent. When you said this-"I personally believe that Gary was most likely killed over money (not drugs), as Beauders suggested.I believe 'they" went there looking for money, and when things got "messy", Beausoleil got afraid and acted in haste.What others believe is their prerogative and business." I dont have the energy to type, butthe key word here is "Perogative".....

sanders presented a lot of rumors he heard as fact such as manson's association with the solar lodge of the o.t.o and their influence on manson and the family. as far as i know watson went to an o.t.o. party and that is the only contact between the family and the o.t.o. maybehinman's drug manufacturing and being gay was just a rumor sanders heard and presented as fact. believe me hinman was murdered over money.

>>>Beauders said: sanders presented a lot of rumors he heard as fact such as manson's association with the solar lodge of the o.t.o and their influence on manson and the family. as far as i know watson went to an o.t.o. party and that is the only contact between the family and the o.t.o. maybehinman's drug manufacturing and being gay was just a rumor sanders heard and presented as fact. believe me hinman was murdered over money.>>>

Well Beauders, the reason I think that is because from everything I've read, Rosemary worked in a "dress shop". I've been in many "dress shops", and they sell accessories, such as belts, hats and such, but not WIGS.

I've never even seen a wig shop. They are all on line.

I've never seen it mentioned that she sold wigs, not even from her partner in testimony.

Have you?

If Rosemary sold wigs before she met Leno, I don't know about that, and neither do you. And neither does anyone else. She was a waitress from what I've garnered, and nothing else.

Waitresses don't sell wigs.

If Rosemary sold wigs 20 years before she met Leno, then how in the hell would Tex know her? He would be in elementary school.

Katie, this is ONLY in responce to your wig question, lol... Here in LA I know of 4 wig shops.So yes, there are wig shops here. They sell wigs and "falls" and the ones I know of have been there a long time. Thats the ONLY thing I want to add. I have no clue if she worked at one. We have one here right in between a Kmart and a WHole foods on 3rd and Fairfax. And at some of the cheap dress shops they sell those "clamp on" falls...I call those "phony ponys", lol

Lynyrd- I dont know how to email you off the blog but I just wanted to let you know that that person wrote me AGAIN to apologize and said that he was upset cuz he couldnt post on your blog. You dont have to post this- but I thought it was nice that he apologized.... we will see about the show ;)

Katie, I am reading the handwritten portion of the autopsy report that Lynyrd posted. And, Katie, how do you know what was found or not found at Gary Hinman's home post-murder? Is there a document you can share? That's the kind of thing I am looking for.

Yes, I have no way of knowing how involved with drugs or not Gary Hinman was. I have no way of knowing whether or not he was a good man, although I suspect he was from everything I have found and read.

None of us ever invented the THEORY that Gary Hinman was making synthetics. The first I ever heard of it was in a Truman Capote book which had an interview with BB.

But in trying to connect dots and make sense of all this it becomes very intriguing to consider, especially if any possible bad 'deal' had the Straight Satans involved...and if Dorgan was ever a member or an associated hanger-on of the SSs.

It must be very painful for any of the victim's family members to have to deal with the notoriety of a loved one's murder some 40 plus years later, I know. But this case rises to the level of historical significance because of what it has meant to our laws and our culture, so inquiries will continue long after we have left the blog world...unless the pieces fall into place which provides a satisfactory ending.

Whatever all this means, it certainly doesn't mean that any of the victims deserved their fates. I am in no way sympathetic to their killers other than to be inclined to think that they really aren't going to cause us any more trouble in their old age, but that's just how i see the world.

"Lynyrd- I dont know how to email you off the blog but I just wanted to let you know that that person wrote me AGAIN to apologize and said that he was upset cuz he couldnt post on your blog. You dont have to post this- but I thought it was nice that he apologized.... we will see about the show ;)"

It's all good.I have no personal problem with Molly/Miranda/Riley/Walsh/DHHatz.No problem what-so-ever.I wish him/her the very best.

I'm simply stating, that I have no way of verifying the authenticity of this persons claims... which is the truth. AND, I have no control over other people's opinions of the circumstances surrounding Gary's very unfortunate, and undeserved demise.This is by no means intended as a personal shot, towards this person.

This person is more than welcome to post comments on my blog.I have no idea where he/she got the idea that this blog is not open to him/her.ANYONE can submit a comment for approval on this blog, so long as they have a google account.97% of all submitted comments are approved.I have never "banned" anyone from this blog.That's a misconception on the part of this individual.

The first I heard of the Gary/Drug connection was from Beausoleil, as well.

Personally, I'd like to see a bit more documentation in that area, beyond the testimony of Beausoleil himself (and it's subsequnt off-shoots), before I am personally convinced.I have my doubts about Beausoleil's credibility.

I'll be the first to admit however, that my knowledge in the area of "Hinman" is not complete.I'm much more solid in the areas of Tate and LaBianca.

For me... the jury is still out on this topic... and I'm erring on the side of "money", until I come across something really solid.

You've done nothing wrong by researching the drug angle, and pursuing those leads.Molly/Miranda... (assuming he/she truly is a relative)... is understandably sensitive to this topic... and protective of Gary's reputaion.As I said... thts is completely understandable.BUT... no one (including you) has said anything overly derogatory regarding Gary in malice... and research should not be considered offensive (in, and of itself).

What Molly/Miranda should kow, is that you would be the first to state that drugs had nothing to do with Gary's death, if your research brings you to that conclusion.There's no underlying angle or agenda here, to make Gary look bad.

Also, over at eviliz, they have posted a link to Deana Martin's trial testimony and have quoted some of Melcher's testimony against Watson. Very interesting stuff, assuming it's authentic, which I do. Deana confirms Manson at Wilson's beach house after the move from Sunset and Melcher states that tex was up at Cielo Drive many times with Jakobsen in 1968.

Starship, a judge has blocked LAPD from getting Tex's tapes until he can hear Tex's arguments. Lame.

Regarding Deana Martin, I read her autobiography. I'm sure she's a nice girl, but she's somewhat of a flake. She claims in her book that she was Terry Melcher's girlfriend in 1968 and spent a lot of time at Cielo Drive, which isn't true. I'm sure that Candice Bergen would love to hear that.

Starship, I don't know what was found in Gary's house. But from everything I've read, no one has mentioned finding a mesc lab in his basement.

If Charlie & Bobby hadn't said anything about "bad drugs" from Gary, no one would ever had brought it up again.

Bobby has even admitted to lying about the bad drug theory to make himself look less liable.

So why do we keep beating a dead horse? There's no evidence that Gary was selling drugs.

I didn't know Gary personally, of course. But from everything I've read about him, he was a kind, considerate, compassionate human being. It's a fact that he kept Mary's clone son when the authorities were going to take him away from her for abuse. And it's a fact that he let Bobby crash there many times when he had nowhere else to go.

They killed Gary in cold blood and stole his vehicles. One of them ended up getting given away by Manson and the other is still rotting somewhere in the desert.

As far as Dean Moorehouse (sp?) living at Cielo Drive, I think I read read in Sanders' book. A perpetuated myth?

I always thought that was suspect. Why would Rudy let some fat, bald, Dom DeLuise "look-alike" loser live for free at his rental property? Was someone paying his rent? Because other than that, I can't see it happening.

katie i just thought you knew something definate on the labianca wig issue. ed sanders is the one who started that, that is that romemary was bringing in drugs to th u.s. and hiding them in the wigs. i don't know if she did or not that's why i asked.

I emailed our friend to invite him onto the radio show and they never replied...yet..what do you think that means? Hmmm... It is good that you invited him or her to post on here though(whomever they are)....

I hope this person does (in fact) do the radio show, because he obviously has a real need to be heard on this subject (of Hinman).Like I said, he gets involved off-blog (and sometimes on-blog) every time the subject is raised... and in no small way.

If nothing else, it will be good for him to finally be heard by a wide audience, and get some of this off his chest.It might be downright therapeutic.

I don't recall Sanders saying that, but that doesn't mean he didn't. I've slept since I read that book.

I think the "wig" stuff with Rosemary was some concoction that someone contrived to make the story more interesting. I don't think Rosemary was selling wigs.

You know, if Rosemary wanted to get drugs from Mexico, she could have just gone there and gotten them. How far is Mexico from LA?? 2 hours?

I just don't buy into the drug thing with the LaBiancas. Yes I know they were into other things: Leno was a gambler and Rosemary was evidently a "hot chick" out for "woman love", according to the police report.

But that doesn't mean they were selling drugs. Rosemary's partner in the dress shop never mentioned wigs OR drugs that I know of.

People like to wonder how Rosemary got so much money. Well, from what I've read, her dress shop was pretty up town, i.e., selling very expensive designer dresses (one reason why Leslie went GA GA and stole her dress after ripping her to pieces) and I can see how, if she was careful, she did make money.

Brian said he talked to "them" on the phone, their name is "Riley" and we will see what is up with that. I couldnt figure out if they were a girl or guy from emails- BUT I told them to post your board here, and they replied that they couldnt "automatically"/I remember when that happened to me. So I think they were frustrated that they couldnt say anythging immediatly and that is why they emailed me out of frustration. They said they may be on the show next month. BTW Brian had some problems in his area with the power going out and all his electricity is down right now, so lets hope it comes back on by tomoorow!!!!

Interesting that Kay revealed he has PTSD from his duties as prosecutor.I also got the impression his knowldge of the huge TLB saga at times in the interview seemed to end around 1980 and at other times what he knew was only what I knew.Though Kay does still attend parole hearings and help victims advocasy groups I got the impression that he went on and lived his own day to day life on his job and isn't at all fixated on the past. I got the feeling that he will answer if asked I don't think he really cares to know anything about the present day activities of the criminals who made TLB happen.My one question of Kay would have been how many of the tons of books on TLB has he read himself.I suspect it is similar to Debra Tate who said she doesn't care to read the books about what happened. She judges the Manson Family by what she herself saw. She has her own opinion.

katie, i've not heard of dean martin living at cielo. i do know that manson and "fats" waltz did deliver cocaine to martin's house for his use. deanna martin was also a girlfriend of dennis wilson's and manson supposedly gave a ring. she tesified at watson's trial and some suspect she is watson's girlfriend rosina kroner. as far as kay having ptsd i would believe it her proecuted lawrence bittaker and roy norris. these two are the most hideous serial killers i have ever heard of. they tortured, raped and murdered teenage girls. they used pliars on them and recorded it on audio tape. kay had to play the tapes repeatedly for evidence and for the jury. kay and the jury received therapy after the trial. bittaker is still on death row (convicted in 1980) and norris is at pelican bay, where he met manson and they became friends. kay also lost an adult child and that destroys parents.

deana said she and some friends would sit around at Charlie's feet while at Cielo partying as Charlie sang. She pretty much glossed over her connection to Charlie in the autobio. Dean was royally pissed at Deana and had her followed by private detectives after learning that Deana had brought the family name into the Manson crap. Deana's book is actually a Mommie Dearest job on Dean. Dean left Deana the least of all his kids in his will.

FRIENDS

"Charlie Manson is a five foot seven schizophrenic, who if it weren't for the murder of Sharon Tate, would never be known or discussed. And I'm not saying he isn't funny and entertaining. I'm saying he's a dime a dozen criminal-class punk, who had the good fortune of running into some middle class pseudo-revolutionary white girls." -- Tom G

"The simple and undeniable truth, is that Charlie and the gang were/are the biggest idiots, morons and imbeciles on the planet." -- Leary7

"Them fucking fruitcakes could not pour piss out of a boot, with the bottom written on it."--Harold True