Just wondering if any of you use propane (we call it LPG in Oz) in your car and if you've noticed a sudden "launch for the moon" in bowser prices in the last two months? Here the price has gone up around 50% across the entire country in the last 2 months. The oil companies are saying it is down to the Arabs setting the price (even though we don't import any of it from Arabia and produce all our own-even export it).

we dont use propane in our cars. i do in my fork lifts though. ill have to look at my next bill when my propane guy fills up my tanks again.

Wow, not at all? I know Australia has one of the biggest LPG car usage in the world, but I thought the US particularly California were into it. I remember reading many books on LPG that were US based. Maybe it's gone into non use for cars in the US now. All the taxis over here run it.

we dont use propane in our cars. i do in my fork lifts though. ill have to look at my next bill when my propane guy fills up my tanks again.

Wow, not at all? I know Australia has one of the biggest LPG car usage in the world, but I thought the US particularly California were into it. I remember reading many books on LPG that were US based. Maybe it's gone into non use for cars in the US now. All the taxis over here run it.

Thanks for your reply.

we use natural gas in some of the buses and trash trucks but thats it. i wonder what would cost less right now? were paying around 4.20ish a gallon. and at 15 miles to the gallon its keeping me from making the so cal meeting in LA this month

The town I live in just converted its City Buses to LPG, and it opening its first public LPG filling station in a few weeks.

0

In my post I sometimes express "MY" opinion. Please do not feel insulted if your opinion differs from my opinion. That is fine. You get to have one, I get to have one. Its kind of like they teach you in Kindergarten, but we don't even have to share. Any data in this post is provided 'as is' and in no event shall I be liable for any damages, including, without limitation, damages resulting from accuracy or lack thereof, insult, or lost profits or revenue, claims by third parties or for other similar costs, or any special, incidental, or consequential damages arising out of my opinion or the use of this data. The accuracy or reliability of the data is not guaranteed or warranted in any way and I disclaim liability of any kind whatsoever, including, without limitation, liability for quality, performance, merchantability and fitness for a particular purpose arising out of the use, or inability to use my data. Other terms may apply.

There are a number of cars that use Propane gas here, but it isn't popular. The big problem is that it's hard to find it sometimes, at least compared to gasoline. But, they are around, especially taxis, meter-maid mobiles, and some "Green companies" who like to show off.

As to the prices, good question.

If OZ exports propane, that might be the problem right there. Demand is up on all that stuff worldwide, and prices can and likely will rise if demand gets high enough. I can imagine prices rising through the roof, even if we drill in Yosemite . . .

0

Let's keep our forum fun and friendly.

Any data in this post is provided 'as is' and in no event shall I be liable for any damages, including, without limitation, damages resulting from accuracy or lack thereof, insult, or lost profits or revenue, claims by third parties or for other similar costs, or any special, incidental, or consequential damages arising out of my opinion or the use of this data. The accuracy or reliability of the data is not guaranteed or warranted in any way and I disclaim liability of any kind whatsoever, including, without limitation, liability for quality, performance, merchantability and fitness for a particular purpose arising out of the use, or inability to use my data. Other terms may apply.

Very interesting guys. I always thought the US and especially California were leading edge with LPG in every day cars for pollution reasons and the like.

I just had my SUV (Ford Territory, similar to Ford Explorer but Aussie designed with 4L VCT straight six) converted to dual fuel using a new form of liquid LPG injection. It has 6 injectors next to the fuel injectors and it injects liquid LPG which gets very cold and this gets brilliant fuel consumption and emissions are really low for the size of it. It meets Euro6 emissions with it, even though it was designed for Euro3 levels. It cost me a bit, but now the price has taken the edge off running it. When I bought it I could buy a litre for around 59c AUD. Now its up to 92.9c per litre and I only had it fitted last October. Mines a real efficient system (I'm glad I paid extra to get the efficient one) but many people are running much less efficient systems and they'll be switching back to petrol now. 91RON fuel (basic unleaded) is $1.42 a litre and Ultimate 98 is around $1.60 a litre.

Ford have just released a new range of Falcons over here running straight LPG and the same system I installed. They get great economy, and more power than the petrol ones (285HP) but I think they may not sell as many as they could have if LPG stayed normally priced. The Australian arm of GM have done the same but with a slightly lower tech system and they'll be hurt too.

Reportedly there are 550000 registered LPG vehicles in Victoria alone.

I thought the US were big users of LPG, maybe Australia is the biggest user then.

The oil companies own us and the government here in Oz. They make the rules up as they go along. At the moment they are robbing Australia.

we dont use propane in our cars. i do in my fork lifts though. ill have to look at my next bill when my propane guy fills up my tanks again.

Wow, not at all? I know Australia has one of the biggest LPG car usage in the world, but I thought the US particularly California were into it. I remember reading many books on LPG that were US based. Maybe it's gone into non use for cars in the US now. All the taxis over here run it.

Thanks for your reply.

we use natural gas in some of the buses and trash trucks but thats it. i wonder what would cost less right now? were paying around 4.20ish a gallon. and at 15 miles to the gallon its keeping me from making the so cal meeting in LA this month

We're paying $5.04US/US gallon at the moment. LPG is $3.30US/US gallon but you only go 80% of the distance on a gallon of LPG to a gallon of gasoline if the LPG system is tuned right. There are about 3600 LPG outlets in Australia spread right through the country and into the outback as well. Most are in cities though.

An old WB ute I bough from my brothers brother in law ran on straight gas , and he had driven it around Australia . I actually got a free fill one weekend to help a service station owner win a bet . His mate insisted that no one was stupid enough to drive a straight gas car in north Qld . Mechanic mate of mine worked at taxi depot doing conversions all the time ..It was less than half the price of petrol; for many years sometimes a third ..big savings .

0

Michael in palm paradise,
Tully, wet tropics in Australia, over 4 meters of rain every year.
Home of the Golden Gumboot, its over 8m high , our record annual rainfall.

Is LPG in Australia made mostly from refining oil or natural gas? I would imagine that as more and more people are using LPG in Australia, the refining of oil and nat gas will need to keep up with LPG demand, otherwise prices will sky rocket for LPG.

0

Ron Wellington, Florida Zone 11 in my mindZone 10a 9a in reality13miles West of the Atlantic in Palm Beach County

An old WB ute I bough from my brothers brother in law ran on straight gas , and he had driven it around Australia . I actually got a free fill one weekend to help a service station owner win a bet . His mate insisted that no one was stupid enough to drive a straight gas car in north Qld . Mechanic mate of mine worked at taxi depot doing conversions all the time ..It was less than half the price of petrol; for many years sometimes a third ..big savings .

Yes, straight gas is not a problem in Australia unless you go to Denham in Shark Bay where there is no LPG bowser except for back at the roadhouse on the main highway 130km away. If you're towing a van and don't have at least 100-120l then you'd get stuck if you want to do a bit of touring around Shark Bay.

Is LPG in Australia made mostly from refining oil or natural gas? I would imagine that as more and more people are using LPG in Australia, the refining of oil and nat gas will need to keep up with LPG demand, otherwise prices will sky rocket for LPG.

Well it used to be burnt away at the wellhead on oil wells before it was used in cars. The actual cost of the stuff is a few cents a litre. Australia has enormous gas reserves too and produces way more than it uses. I don't think much oil is used to create LPG though. LNG is produced in very large quantities and I suppose LPG can be refined from that.

The line the oil companies are taking is that the Arabs have set the price high due to the demand for LPG for heating in Europe. But we don't buy Arabian gas. I know it's a world market but it is a bit like the Arabs setting the price of bananas at $57/kg and then the Queensland banana industry uses the Arab price to sell bananas at $57/kg. Ridiculous when you put it into that sort of perspective. World markets unfortunately make big business lots of money and leave the locals penniless.

Well, Tyrone, if the companies are free to sell to whoever they want, it's easy to imagine LPG going for more money overseas, sell to the highest bidder.

Prices will get higher, unless and until something major changes.

0

Let's keep our forum fun and friendly.

Any data in this post is provided 'as is' and in no event shall I be liable for any damages, including, without limitation, damages resulting from accuracy or lack thereof, insult, or lost profits or revenue, claims by third parties or for other similar costs, or any special, incidental, or consequential damages arising out of my opinion or the use of this data. The accuracy or reliability of the data is not guaranteed or warranted in any way and I disclaim liability of any kind whatsoever, including, without limitation, liability for quality, performance, merchantability and fitness for a particular purpose arising out of the use, or inability to use my data. Other terms may apply.

Very interesting guys. I always thought the US and especially California were leading edge with LPG in every day cars for pollution reasons and the like.

I just had my SUV (Ford Territory, similar to Ford Explorer but Aussie designed with 4L VCT straight six) converted to dual fuel using a new form of liquid LPG injection. It has 6 injectors next to the fuel injectors and it injects liquid LPG which gets very cold and this gets brilliant fuel consumption and emissions are really low for the size of it. It meets Euro6 emissions with it, even though it was designed for Euro3 levels. It cost me a bit, but now the price has taken the edge off running it. When I bought it I could buy a litre for around 59c AUD. Now its up to 92.9c per litre and I only had it fitted last October. Mines a real efficient system (I'm glad I paid extra to get the efficient one) but many people are running much less efficient systems and they'll be switching back to petrol now. 91RON fuel (basic unleaded) is $1.42 a litre and Ultimate 98 is around $1.60 a litre.

Ford have just released a new range of Falcons over here running straight LPG and the same system I installed. They get great economy, and more power than the petrol ones (285HP) but I think they may not sell as many as they could have if LPG stayed normally priced. The Australian arm of GM have done the same but with a slightly lower tech system and they'll be hurt too.

Reportedly there are 550000 registered LPG vehicles in Victoria alone.

I thought the US were big users of LPG, maybe Australia is the biggest user then.

The oil companies own us and the government here in Oz. They make the rules up as they go along. At the moment they are robbing Australia.

Best regards

Tyrone

Tyrone,

I don't think the US is leading the world in any form of energy conservation. Don't you know our motto is bigger is better and just buy a new one? Everyone else is ahead of us in solar, wind, and other forms of energy. Auto makers brag about getting 33mpg in a car. My VW in the 60's got that much! And it was German not American made. I can't believe we can send men to outer space and yet can't make an engine that will get 100mpg. I am convinced there are patents locked away that can make that happen, either by the auto makers or the oil companies.

Engines have been developed that are economical. An example is the orbital engine. It had a lot of promise, but one of the major car manufacturers bought the patents and shelved it. All current literature about it says the design was flawed, but I don't remember it that way...you have to wonder!

Engines have been developed that are economical. An example is the orbital engine. It had a lot of promise, but one of the major car manufacturers bought the patents and shelved it. All current literature about it says the design was flawed, but I don't remember it that way...you have to wonder!

Daryl

ive heard these rumors too. but id think that if a car company could come out with a car that got 50+ miles to the gallon they would build it asap and make a ton of money. id seriously doubt any company would hold back such an engine, if they did they would be awful business men.

Auto makers brag about getting 33mpg in a car. My VW in the 60's got that much! And it was German not American made. I can't believe we can send men to outer space and yet can't make an engine that will get 100mpg. I am convinced there are patents locked away that can make that happen, either by the auto makers or the oil companies.

Don't forget that there were little or no smog controls necessary in the 60s. And from what I hear, most of those controls cut into your mileage. And the gasoline itself was much different. Now there are a dozen different formulations necessary in the U.S. for different jurisdictions and times of year. And I am guessing all of them are more expensive to produce and yield less mileage than what was universally used in the 60s.

But what is never mentioned in this gas price equation is that you could buy a gallon of gas in the 60s for about 30 cents. Today those same 3 silver dimes can buy you over 2 gals of gas. So in "real money" gas is a lot cheaper today.

But what is never mentioned in this gas price equation is that you could buy a gallon of gas in the 60s for about 30 cents. Today that same silver quarter and nickel can buy you over 2 gals of gas. So in real money gas is a lot cheaper today.

thats a cool way to look at it but doesnt that just show that silver and gas have gone way up in price with silver being way more valuable?

But what is never mentioned in this gas price equation is that you could buy a gallon of gas in the 60s for about 30 cents. Today those same three silver dimes can buy you over 2 gals of gas. So in real money gas is a lot cheaper today.

thats a cool way to look at it but doesnt that just show that silver and gas have gone way up in price with silver being way more valuable?

We are veering into a political discussion here so we have to be careful. But the way I look at it is that many things we think are going up in price are only doing so because the value of the dollar is going down. Or in other words, a dollar backed by gold or silver had an intrinsic value, while a dollar backed by faith in government does not.

Engines have been developed that are economical. An example is the orbital engine. It had a lot of promise, but one of the major car manufacturers bought the patents and shelved it. All current literature about it says the design was flawed, but I don't remember it that way...you have to wonder!

Daryl

That was Ralph Sarich. My grandfather worked for him on that project. I'd often talk to him about it when he was alive. The problem was the wear on the seals which are equivalent to the rings on a piston engine. I think the patents were sold to Ford, and yes, Ford shelved them(Ford US were going to do something with them, and they even had cars fitted with them driving around. I seem to remember one around Perth vaguely). That would have been almost 30 years ago. With modern technology I reckon they could have solved that seal problem by now. It had 50% of the moving parts of a conventional engine and as it wasn't reciprocating and made a ton of power from a smaller capacity without the use of a turbo etc. It was vastly more economical too. After selling the patent, Orbital as they are known now went into cylinder head design and did things with outboard motors for Mercury I think. Then they looked at LPG technology, and developed the LPG injection system I've fitted to my Territory which is what is fitted to the new EcoLPi Falcon and the Holden HSV LPG versions. Sometimes some goods things come out of Perth.

As for vastly economical cars, well I'm sure we are being fed smoke and mirrors all the time. Oil makes the world go round. Whole regimes rely on the dominance they have over it. We are fed a load of ....... about it all the time. The reality of the situation is probably much different. Car manufacturers are in bed with oil companies. Petrol was virtually thrown out before cars came along. Kerosene was the substance of choice before cars came. Petrol was burnt for street lighting. The marriage of the new device called the horseless carriage and the refining byproduct "gasoline" was a stroke of genius by someone back then. But it is not the best fuel to run on by a long shot, especially when it comes to pollution. Hydrogen is by far the best as it contains no carbon and you can drink the exhaust as it's just pure water. But until oil doesn't make the world go around, polluting petrol is what cars will run. Manufacturers will incrementally make improvements in economy and emissions, but the powers that be will leave us dependant on oil and lots of it. I take my hat off the Ford Australia and GM Australia for going the LPG route at all.

But what is never mentioned in this gas price equation is that you could buy a gallon of gas in the 60s for about 30 cents. Today those same three silver dimes can buy you over 2 gals of gas. So in real money gas is a lot cheaper today.

thats a cool way to look at it but doesnt that just show that silver and gas have gone way up in price with silver being way more valuable?

We are veering into a political discussion here so we have to be careful. But the way I look at it is that many things we think are going up in price are only doing so because the value of the dollar is going down. Or in other words, a dollar backed by gold or silver had an intrinsic value, while a dollar backed by faith in government does not.

Interesting that in OZ, we are in a weird situation. Our dollar keeps on going up in value, but then so does the price on everything else, so I actually think our buying power is dropping. Weird.

i don't know about any of that stuff, but i do know here in California Propane isnt as readily availiable as is CNG, or Natural Gas. Many cities use CNg for their buses, trash trucks, etc. Here on the west coast, we have an overwhelming amount of gas transported through major pipelines from Texas and Mexico. We also ship a great deal overseas, and it is dirt cheap. there has been several recent discoveries of natural gas here in the united states, primarily in the midwest, and i believe they'll be drilling it out soon, if not already. The problem with natural gas, is that we have yet to discover a way to fuel a vehicle for as long as gasoline, i.e. 300+ MILES on one tank, not to mention how much more difficult it is to fill, as opposed to gasoline through the pump.

Until vehicle manufactures can effectively replace the convenience and durability of gasoline, i imagine it will be some time before we're filling our cars with Propane, Natural Gas, or anything else for that matter! While they're at it, you think they could find a
way to make salt water combustible! Then we'd be on to something!

-FINS!!!!!__

0

Living in the valley of the dirt people in the inland empire, "A mullet on every head and a methlab in every kitchen." If you can't afford to live in the tropics, then bring the tropics to you!

Interesting that in OZ, we are in a weird situation. Our dollar keeps on going up in value, but then so does the price on everything else, so I actually think our buying power is dropping. Weird.

Tyronne,

I could look it up, but maybe you know or could do so more easily. How many Aussie dollars did it take to buy an ounce of gold in the 60s, and how much does it cost today? So, the Aussie dollar may be "going up" when compared to other paper currencies, but when compared to commodities with "real" value like gold, silver, and oil, it may not. They call it the "gold standard" for a reason.

i don't know about any of that stuff, but i do know here in California Propane isnt as readily availiable as is CNG, or Natural Gas. Many cities use CNg for their buses, trash trucks, etc. Here on the west coast, we have an overwhelming amount of gas transported through major pipelines from Texas and Mexico. We also ship a great deal overseas, and it is dirt cheap. there has been several recent discoveries of natural gas here in the united states, primarily in the midwest, and i believe they'll be drilling it out soon, if not already. The problem with natural gas, is that we have yet to discover a way to fuel a vehicle for as long as gasoline, i.e. 300+ MILES on one tank, not to mention how much more difficult it is to fill, as opposed to gasoline through the pump.

Until vehicle manufactures can effectively replace the convenience and durability of gasoline, i imagine it will be some time before we're filling our cars with Propane, Natural Gas, or anything else for that matter! While they're at it, you think they could find a way to make salt water combustible! Then we'd be on to something!

-FINS!!!!!__

Yes CNG doesn't get good MPG, so you need a huge tank. But it's cheap. Even in Oz we only use CNG in buses, as you'd need a huge tank to go far. LPG is different. 300 miles on a tank is easy. Filling up isn't an issue either. Running dual fuel means you extend your range anyway. You need the network of service stations though.

Salt water combustible. Yes. Pass an electric current through a platinum electrode through salt water and collect the hydrogen. Hydrogen goes bang real good.

Interesting that in OZ, we are in a weird situation. Our dollar keeps on going up in value, but then so does the price on everything else, so I actually think our buying power is dropping. Weird.

Tyronne,

I could look it up, but maybe you know or could do so more easily. How many Aussie dollars did it take to buy an ounce of gold in the 60s, and how much does it cost today? So the Aussie dollar may be "going up" when compared to other currencies, but when compared to commodities with "real" value like gold, silver, and oil, it may not. They call it the "gold standard" for a reason.

Good point. I don't know. Gold has gone through the roof lately. It's a symptom of investors having no face in the wider economy. Record gold prices historically precede an economic crash on a world scale.

or we could make a fusion reactor (were almost there) then make them small enough to fit in a car then all our energy problems will be solved... until the demand for hydrogen skyrockets then we wll be back in the same situation once again. we will always need fuel and there will always be someone getting rich from it..

or we could make a fusion reactor (were almost there) then make them small enough to fit in a car then all our energy problems will be solved... until the demand for hydrogen skyrockets then we wll be back in the same situation once again. we will always need fuel and there will always be someone getting rich from it..

The beauty about hydrogen is you can make it yourself if you have the equipment. The hardest bit would be compressing it into a liquid and pumping it into a tank. Water is everywhere, so no one in Arabia or anywhere for that matter can gain a monopoly on it. If you use solar power to electrolyse water, the running costs are zero.

Someone mentioned all the natural gas discovered in the midwest part of the US. Doesn't that require fracking to extract it? If so, there are way too many problems with that method for me to buy into it.

And I do think that the oil companies and automakers are in bed together to keep the fuel economy low. Why not take some of that money and do some real research on clean, renewable energy?

And, yes, I am sure that with today's technology, we could solve the problems with the seals. If they had wanted to, they probably could have solved them when they were discovered. Weren't we in space by then? Seals are certainly important in space vehicles!

I guess I am just too cycnical about oil and auto makers. I don't trust either to tell us the truth.

Besides the fact that collusion is illegal, I don't see what the auto makers would gain by colluding with the oil companies. If its cheap prices at the pump, well the oil companies broke the trust long ago. Secondly, I don't know how you would pull off the collusion on such a massive scale without getting all the foreign car makers to go along and what would be in it for them? Some of them are partly owned by their government, so you would have to get them to go along too. All it would take is for one to say no and the collusion efforts would be undone in an afternoon. Thirdly, there is no way to enforce a collusion agreement, so you would have to have this agreement on blind trust. Blind trust may work among friends, family and the mafia but rarely does it ever work in business. The only way I can think you could possibly get this to work would be for big oil and automakers to form a cartel with the US government.

I honestly don't think that any of the car manufactures care one way or the other about the desires of the oil industry other then perhaps the impact high fuel costs have on their sales figures. If anything, when gas prices rise as they are, its hurts their bottom lines by compelling people to buy the cheaper barely profitable fuel efficient product lines, or worse to buy cheapo foreign cars or worst of all preventing people all together from buying cars. If they could come up with a car that got 100mpg, and was under US$20k and could be made with the profit margins of a truck, they would be pumping those things out all day long to acquire market share from the others. This is because the car manufactures care about one thing and that is making a product that people will buy at a price that allows them to make a good profit. Look at the electric car. Its a great concept and gets you away from the pump (excluding the volt), but they will most likely prove a failure not because they didn't try, but because consumers know its economics are horrible and its terribly inconvenient on top of that. There are a lot of challenges involved in developing a safe and reliable fuel efficient car at a price that makes it affordable for the consumer and profitable for the auto company.

I also don't think the major oil companies fear alternative energy solutions as all of them are heavily invested in those technologies already. Check out the web sites of Exxon, BP, Shell, etc and you'll see that they are in everything from natgas to bio-fuels from algae to lithium batteries to hydrogen fuel cells. Go to the lubricants sections and you'll see that they are ties in with wind industry. The oil companies also have a distribution network in place already for what ever alternative fuel comes along. So they benefit regardless. I also think the oil companies understand that oil will be around for a long time since we are dependent on more fractions then just fuels. You can't get the other important fractions without refining oil. And even worse is that if refining does decline, since fuel is the biggest driver, prices will go up for those products that are dependent on the non-fuel fractions, so the savings in alternative fuel may be lost in the cost increases of other products.

0

Ron Wellington, Florida Zone 11 in my mindZone 10a 9a in reality13miles West of the Atlantic in Palm Beach County

I agree with you Ron. Car company's are a business and want to stay ahead of there competitors. To hold back technology would just be dumb. Look at how bad the US car companies are doing, if they had an engine that would change the world I'm sure they would make it.

i don't know about any of that stuff, but i do know here in California Propane isnt as readily availiable as is CNG, or Natural Gas. Many cities use CNg for their buses, trash trucks, etc. Here on the west coast, we have an overwhelming amount of gas transported through major pipelines from Texas and Mexico. We also ship a great deal overseas, and it is dirt cheap. there has been several recent discoveries of natural gas here in the united states, primarily in the midwest, and i believe they'll be drilling it out soon, if not already. The problem with natural gas, is that we have yet to discover a way to fuel a vehicle for as long as gasoline, i.e. 300+ MILES on one tank, not to mention how much more difficult it is to fill, as opposed to gasoline through the pump.

Until vehicle manufactures can effectively replace the convenience and durability of gasoline, i imagine it will be some time before we're filling our cars with Propane, Natural Gas, or anything else for that matter! While they're at it, you think they could find a way to make salt water combustible! Then we'd be on to something!

-FINS!!!!!__

Yes CNG doesn't get good MPG, so you need a huge tank. But it's cheap. Even in Oz we only use CNG in buses, as you'd need a huge tank to go far. LPG is different. 300 miles on a tank is easy. Filling up isn't an issue either. Running dual fuel means you extend your range anyway. You need the network of service stations though.

Salt water combustible. Yes. Pass an electric current through a platinum electrode through salt water and collect the hydrogen. Hydrogen goes bang real good.

YES, Tyronne,

Hydrogen is combustible, very much so. However at this point, salt water in of in itself has not yet proven to be a viable solution to our current leader of gasoline. The moment some genius scientist, heck maybe you, can figure out how to make salt water, the most abundant resource on our planet, fuel our vehicles, plants, trains, lions and tigers and bears you're in business. If there is one thing you can count on is this. If Americans could figure a way to make propane cheaper and easier to use for consumers and more profitable than liquid petroleum you'd bet a months pay they'd be doing it! We're about the profit over here bud!

-FINS TO YOUR RESEARCH!!

0

Living in the valley of the dirt people in the inland empire, "A mullet on every head and a methlab in every kitchen." If you can't afford to live in the tropics, then bring the tropics to you!

Ron (and Eric) understand that it is purely economics that drives this complicated framework - not conspiracies. The first entrepreneur or company that can get a person or product from Point A to Point B, in an environmentally friendly manner, for substantially less money, while providing comparable convenience and safety, would quickly become more profitable than the largest oil and car company combined. They would have no trouble attracting unlimited capital, and they would instantly have billions of customers - if the oil and car companies didn't jump on it first.

Hydrogen is combustible, and a byproduct of burning it is -- water vapor.

Don't know about you, but if we started burning H we might usher in a era of climate change. Water vapor forms clouds, which might block the sun and lower the temperature.

Someone correct me, about the chemistry, anyway.

0

Let's keep our forum fun and friendly.

Any data in this post is provided 'as is' and in no event shall I be liable for any damages, including, without limitation, damages resulting from accuracy or lack thereof, insult, or lost profits or revenue, claims by third parties or for other similar costs, or any special, incidental, or consequential damages arising out of my opinion or the use of this data. The accuracy or reliability of the data is not guaranteed or warranted in any way and I disclaim liability of any kind whatsoever, including, without limitation, liability for quality, performance, merchantability and fitness for a particular purpose arising out of the use, or inability to use my data. Other terms may apply.

Hydrogen is combustible, and a byproduct of burning it is -- water vapor.

Don't know about you, but if we started burning H we might usher in a era of climate change. Water vapor forms clouds, which might block the sun and lower the temperature.

Someone correct me, about the chemistry, anyway.

your right dave. water vapor is (i think) the #1 proven greenhouse gas. if the reason to switch to H is only for getting rid of Co2 then IMO you could make a problem worse. with hydrogen fusion the only byproduct is helium (an inert gas). fusion will change the world. weve made a fusion reactor using lasers but as of now it takes more energy than it produces. they say in 20 years we will be able to make fusion a reality. the problem with gasoline is that its a very efficient form of energy. so until we can come up with something more efficient gas is going to be king.

Hydrogen is combustible, and a byproduct of burning it is -- water vapor.

Don't know about you, but if we started burning H we might usher in a era of climate change. Water vapor forms clouds, which might block the sun and lower the temperature.

Someone correct me, about the chemistry, anyway.

your right dave. water vapor is (i think) the #1 proven greenhouse gas. if the reason to switch to H is only for getting rid of Co2 then IMO you could make a problem worse. with hydrogen fusion the only byproduct is helium (an inert gas). fusion will change the world. weve made a fusion reactor using lasers but as of now it takes more energy than it produces. they say in 20 years we will be able to make fusion a reality. the problem with gasoline is that its a very efficient form of energy. so until we can come up with something more efficient gas is going to be king.

Hmm.

I'd be careful about too much helium, too. The world is complex and sometimes things get annoying when they go out of balance, as we're discovering to our present and ongoing chagrin.

0

Let's keep our forum fun and friendly.

Any data in this post is provided 'as is' and in no event shall I be liable for any damages, including, without limitation, damages resulting from accuracy or lack thereof, insult, or lost profits or revenue, claims by third parties or for other similar costs, or any special, incidental, or consequential damages arising out of my opinion or the use of this data. The accuracy or reliability of the data is not guaranteed or warranted in any way and I disclaim liability of any kind whatsoever, including, without limitation, liability for quality, performance, merchantability and fitness for a particular purpose arising out of the use, or inability to use my data. Other terms may apply.

Hydrogen is combustible, and a byproduct of burning it is -- water vapor.

Don't know about you, but if we started burning H we might usher in a era of climate change. Water vapor forms clouds, which might block the sun and lower the temperature.

Someone correct me, about the chemistry, anyway.

your right dave. water vapor is (i think) the #1 proven greenhouse gas. if the reason to switch to H is only for getting rid of Co2 then IMO you could make a problem worse. with hydrogen fusion the only byproduct is helium (an inert gas). fusion will change the world. weve made a fusion reactor using lasers but as of now it takes more energy than it produces. they say in 20 years we will be able to make fusion a reality. the problem with gasoline is that its a very efficient form of energy. so until we can come up with something more efficient gas is going to be king.

Hmm.

I'd be careful about too much helium, too. The world is complex and sometimes things get annoying when they go out of balance, as we're discovering to our present and ongoing chagrin.

I here planting palm trees is great for the environment and makes you get better gas mileage plus it makes you more attractive. . .

Hydrogen is combustible, and a byproduct of burning it is -- water vapor.

Don't know about you, but if we started burning H we might usher in a era of climate change. Water vapor forms clouds, which might block the sun and lower the temperature.

Someone correct me, about the chemistry, anyway.

your right dave. water vapor is (i think) the #1 proven greenhouse gas. if the reason to switch to H is only for getting rid of Co2 then IMO you could make a problem worse. with hydrogen fusion the only byproduct is helium (an inert gas). fusion will change the world. weve made a fusion reactor using lasers but as of now it takes more energy than it produces. they say in 20 years we will be able to make fusion a reality. the problem with gasoline is that its a very efficient form of energy. so until we can come up with something more efficient gas is going to be king.

Hmm.

I'd be careful about too much helium, too. The world is complex and sometimes things get annoying when they go out of balance, as we're discovering to our present and ongoing chagrin.

I here planting palm trees is great for the environment and makes you get better gas mileage plus it makes you more attractive. . .

Coming to the meeting?

0

Let's keep our forum fun and friendly.

Any data in this post is provided 'as is' and in no event shall I be liable for any damages, including, without limitation, damages resulting from accuracy or lack thereof, insult, or lost profits or revenue, claims by third parties or for other similar costs, or any special, incidental, or consequential damages arising out of my opinion or the use of this data. The accuracy or reliability of the data is not guaranteed or warranted in any way and I disclaim liability of any kind whatsoever, including, without limitation, liability for quality, performance, merchantability and fitness for a particular purpose arising out of the use, or inability to use my data. Other terms may apply.

Besides the fact that collusion is illegal, I don't see what the auto makers would gain by colluding with the oil companies. If its cheap prices at the pump, well the oil companies broke the trust long ago. Secondly, I don't know how you would pull off the collusion on such a massive scale without getting all the foreign car makers to go along and what would be in it for them? Some of them are partly owned by their government, so you would have to get them to go along too. All it would take is for one to say no and the collusion efforts would be undone in an afternoon. Thirdly, there is no way to enforce a collusion agreement, so you would have to have this agreement on blind trust. Blind trust may work among friends, family and the mafia but rarely does it ever work in business. The only way I can think you could possibly get this to work would be for big oil and automakers to form a cartel with the US government.

I honestly don't think that any of the car manufactures care one way or the other about the desires of the oil industry other then perhaps the impact high fuel costs have on their sales figures. If anything, when gas prices rise as they are, its hurts their bottom lines by compelling people to buy the cheaper barely profitable fuel efficient product lines, or worse to buy cheapo foreign cars or worst of all preventing people all together from buying cars. If they could come up with a car that got 100mpg, and was under US$20k and could be made with the profit margins of a truck, they would be pumping those things out all day long to acquire market share from the others. This is because the car manufactures care about one thing and that is making a product that people will buy at a price that allows them to make a good profit. Look at the electric car. Its a great concept and gets you away from the pump (excluding the volt), but they will most likely prove a failure not because they didn't try, but because consumers know its economics are horrible and its terribly inconvenient on top of that. There are a lot of challenges involved in developing a safe and reliable fuel efficient car at a price that makes it affordable for the consumer and profitable for the auto company.

I also don't think the major oil companies fear alternative energy solutions as all of them are heavily invested in those technologies already. Check out the web sites of Exxon, BP, Shell, etc and you'll see that they are in everything from natgas to bio-fuels from algae to lithium batteries to hydrogen fuel cells. Go to the lubricants sections and you'll see that they are ties in with wind industry. The oil companies also have a distribution network in place already for what ever alternative fuel comes along. So they benefit regardless. I also think the oil companies understand that oil will be around for a long time since we are dependent on more fractions then just fuels. You can't get the other important fractions without refining oil. And even worse is that if refining does decline, since fuel is the biggest driver, prices will go up for those products that are dependent on the non-fuel fractions, so the savings in alternative fuel may be lost in the cost increases of other products.

I'm skeptical of the conspiracy theories out there, and you are entitled to your view, but energy resources are big business, and countries put enough emphasis on energy resources to even go to war over it. If it is viewed that seriously by the world in general, it is easy to see that the issue would even drive the foreign policies and diplomatic ties between nations. I'm talking at levels above the car manufacturers. Oil runs the world, and I don't believe that the oil companies are our benevolent friends either. There are ways to make pollution free cars, but ti would change the dynamics of the entire world and the level of order (or disorder) that we presently have. Rich nations would suddenly become nations without much wealth, and the balance of power would shift like a tsunami across the globe. In the light of those facts, why would we the public ever be told the real truth.