[No] Trying to understand Vavoom's 3d engine

Fri, 04 Aug 2006 15:29:29

Mago KH

Sorry if this has been posted before or if's too dumb to deserve an answer, but anyway I was thinking about it yesterday, after all the talks about the limitations the sectors mechanics causes to true 3D possibilities (for example, not being able to move horizontally, not being able to overlap each other's limits, etc) - I recognize having a true 3d engine working through Sectors mechanics (at least that's what I got) seems to make it fairly easy to understand and intuitively go from standard "vanilla" doom map making to Vavoom map making, plus you get to use the same map Editors that are totally compatible and only need the config file to add Vavoom-specific features such as 3d floors specials and Slope things, etc.
As said before, moving "sectors" or objects and the sort could be done by true 3d models imported to the map (and this is still a mistery to me, but Ill have to get back on this later). Still, 3d models are referenced from ouside the engine, and probably can't be altered in any way once inside right? What I'm trying to ask is:
Isn't there in Vavoom any "object" system that is neither sector-based nor 3d-md2-models imported and referenced? Something like Vavoom's OWN 3d models/obejcts? I have seen engines like Cube and to me it seemed as if they were actually not much different than a 3d program, the difference being that they have the structure that allow you to actually play what you built in it. Being a true 3D engine wouldn't the same apply to Vavoom, or am I totally worng? Probably even if it exists, the act of building the 3d world would not be accessible by ordinary 2d Doom map editors...
This is just curiosity though, I'm not complaining about anything nor do I think it's terribly important to have something like this if it isnt possible right now, just that I was interested in some "complex" activities applied to map objects, and I can't picture a way to do it in regular sector-maping, or that would need real-time physics (like a castle's entrance bridge that goes up and down, or a wall that could actually break and have true pieces that fall one over the other, this type of things, nothing really big). <!-- s:? --><img src="{SMILIES_PATH}/icon_confused.gif" alt=":?" title="Confused" /><!-- s:? -->

Fri, 04 Aug 2006 17:14:32

Firebrand

Let me see if I get what you are asking here (please correct me if I'm wrong), what you are asking is if there's something like a prebuilt construction that can be used freely in any map? Like an arch or something that can be applied freely, right?
If that's the case, I'm sorry to say that there aren't any of those, but that they can be created <!-- s:) --><img src="{SMILIES_PATH}/icon_smile.gif" alt=":)" title="Smile" /><!-- s:) -->, if you, for example make an arch using slopes and 3d floors (something like a castle entrance), you can then save it as a prefab in some editors (DoomBuilder can do this, I don't know if WadAuthor had this function or not), and then use this prefab structure anywhere in any map you wish <!-- s:D --><img src="{SMILIES_PATH}/icon_biggrin.gif" alt=":D" title="Very Happy" /><!-- s:D -->, with some work, we could create a special repository for this kind of prefab structures, hope this can help in any way <!-- s:) --><img src="{SMILIES_PATH}/icon_smile.gif" alt=":)" title="Smile" /><!-- s:) -->.

Fri, 04 Aug 2006 17:54:05

Mago KH

Hehe, no, not exactly. What Im trying to know is if there's in Vavoom ways to build objects that are not bound to sectors (like 3d floors or slopes are) but are not 3d models imported from outside.
A simple example of this would be to have a flying plataform like those in Mario Bros, but unlike any trick that might make that work in ordinary map making (I dont know which), it would be simply a 3d object done by vavoom itself, and as a free 3d object, it would simply be able to cross secotrs boundaries without any problem, which isnt possible in simple doom because it isn't real 3d.
I think the differance between built-in solids and imported 3d models is very fdifficult for me to express, mostly because i don't possess the technical knowledge...
Just imagine a 3d floor - it's a solid with certain dimensions and positioned in a certain z value - but now imagine a 3d floor that isn't bound to obey sectors-specific mechanics, and thus could move freely over other sectors, rotate, grow, change shape, etc, all this possible because it's NOT a sector-constrcut but a native Vavoom 3d object - thus it isn't limited to the rules normal sectors, even if new ones as 3d floors, are. It's just a big curiosity, hopefully I made it a bit more clear for you guys educated in these matters. <!-- s;) --><img src="{SMILIES_PATH}/icon_wink.gif" alt=";)" title="Wink" /><!-- s;) -->

Fri, 04 Aug 2006 18:09:00

Mago KH

Just to say that if Vavoom can render 3d models, what I'm saying must be pretty obvious to be at least simulated by using 3d models. But here's another differance between the imported 3d model and the built in 3d solid - don't know about new systems of doing it, but at least till Quake technology (from what I know) everything a model can do must be pre-animated in order for the player to interact with it; a engine construction on the other hand would accept the input and react organically, that's why I gave the example of the wall being destructed - you can animate a wall breaking, but it's a predefined action; the map object wall would brake according to it's own rules of physics, gravity and resistance. I'm not saying Vavoom has or needs to have interactive environment or real-time physics, I'm just trying to highlight the exact topic here: if Vavoom can render it's own created solids that are not bound to sectors language. If there were to be a map editor capable of that, you would be able to draw those solids in-game, and not placing a 3d model prefab somewhere.
Bah, I'm tired of writting. <!-- s:D --><img src="{SMILIES_PATH}/icon_biggrin.gif" alt=":D" title="Very Happy" /><!-- s:D -->

Fri, 04 Aug 2006 18:35:46

Crimson Wizard

In other words that is - dynamically shifting map geometry. Currently it may only change ceiling/floor heights, simulating vertical movement.
EDIT: oops, sorry, plus Hexen's polyobjects, ofcourse, but they are highly limited in abilities.

Fri, 04 Aug 2006 19:02:04

Mago KH

But why only vertical movement? Because the solids are limited by the sectors mechanics no? But isnt Vavoom a full 3d engine? I so, I understand it bases it's main structure upon Doom's sectors language (the so called "2,5D") but doesn't that mean it would ALSO have to naturally allow rendering map geometry on a totally 3d way, independent of Sectors? Who am I kidding, I don't understand anything about 3d engines, just wanting to kno, that's all. <!-- s:) --><img src="{SMILIES_PATH}/icon_smile.gif" alt=":)" title="Smile" /><!-- s:) -->

Fri, 04 Aug 2006 19:25:40

Crimson Wizard

I cannot answer that. I can only guess that there's some problem with converting map structure from Doom's (2,5D) to full 3d, but I am not sure at all. It is Janis who is to be asked since he's engine's author.

Sat, 05 Aug 2006 11:39:55

Janis Legzdinsh

Doom engine level has a 2D BSP tree which makes impossible to modify anything in XY space (polyobjects are a special case). Vertical changes are possible.
Basicly you must understand this: just because it can render things in 3D doesn't mean that it's a full 3D engine.

Sat, 05 Aug 2006 12:26:11

Mago KH

Sure, I understand this perfectly, just there was no way for me to knowing it unless you or someone told me. <!-- s;) --><img src="{SMILIES_PATH}/icon_wink.gif" alt=";)" title="Wink" /><!-- s;) --> It's a shame but nothing really serious, as I said most important issues could be achieved by creative use of 3d models I guess, and that leaves me with another doubt but I think this topic is better off in the Editting section. Thakns for the answer.