You need security clearance for pretty much anything in the military, but especially if you're working for military intelligence. Even if you're
riding a desk.

When I first joined the army, before I had even done any training or had any qualifications, I had a security clearance. I was given a secret
clearance once I was promoted to Corporal simply because I was now qualified to handle the radios, and the radios use proprietary NATO encryption and
such. You need a Top Secret security clearance just to work in the same office as a locked filing cabinet full of documentation detailing operational
readiness.

tldr; Just because you have TS security clearance doesn't mean you're doing anything special. The guy who delivers the mail has a top secret
security clearance.

My question: Why would anyone in a position of authority go through the trouble of framing this man, letting it become an international story - open
to dissection by a population that is developing quite the ravenous need and desire to not believe any "official story" that is offered... when this
supposed power could just have shot the guy in the head, blamed a crackhead and barely even made the local news?

Occams razor suggests that this is what it seems to be... A very angry man in some sort of a psychotic episode - acting out.

~Heff

I think that's a great question. There are a few possible scenarios, including the one you mention (though I don't think psychotic episode describes
what he's doing accurately). However, of course it all could be exactly as it seems.

Part of the problem, though, is that right now how it "seems" is highly tenuous. We have two people mysteriously killed inside a keylocked,
security-camera-covered parking complex by someone sitting in the back seat. In order to pin this on Dorner, we have to get him in that back seat. We
have to have some reason to know that he was there, and how he got there, and how he got out again without being picked up on any camera -- or why it
is the cameras are completely absent from the LAPD narrative.

Someone said, what about the manifesto where he threatens family members. Say I write down "I'm going to kill a unicorn" and show it to you, and
tell you I intend to send it to the newspapers. You happen to know a unicorn that really gets on your nerves, so you just got a free unicorn kill. You
know that I will be blamed even if not one shred of physical evidence connects me to the crime, because I said I was going to kill a unicorn, and
there's a dead unicorn, so I'm obviously guilty.

See the problem?

Sure, that wouldn't be "Occum's razor" simple -- but that's why we don't run the justice system based on the simplest possible scenarios. Human
beings have a tendency to get complicated. For every William of Ockham, there's a Rube Goldberg. It sounds improbable, but it's why Dorner has to be
convicted in a court of law, not in press conferences held by people so determined to kill him they're shooting innocent women.

Which is another response to your reasonable query, Heff -- this is the LAPD. If they were so intent on keeping a quiet public image, they wouldn't
be going around filling random pickup trucks full of bullet holes. Subtle has never been their forte. They also didn't have to release his manifesto
to the press, but they handed it right to them. That's a move designed to get a whole lot of attention. For some reason, the circus that would
inevitably arise around handing the media a "crazy cop with manifesto on the loose" story seemed like the best possible option to the LAPD. Why?

Moving on: why not just have him offed if he's got information? One thought: anyone with dangerous information and half a brain -- and I'll get to
the posts about whether he is or is not Black Rambo next, but I think we can all agree based on the manifesto that he does have at least *half* a
brain -- will have a "dead man switch" in place that would trigger release of the information upon his or her death.

Another thought: The LAPD, as I pointed out in the longer thread, is commonly known as a gang of mercenary thugs for hire. All kinds of criminals,
particularly gangs, have hired and used many LAPD officers for everything from covering up crimes to actually committing them.

Quan and Lawerence were killed in a silent, clean way by someone who either knew them, or was able to sneak into and out of a secure complex
undetected, as well as break into their car and hide in the backseat waiting for them.

Does Dorner look like a guy who would be very well concealed in the backseat of a regular car?
Is there any chance these two would willingly let him into the building, let alone the backseat of their car?

A smaller person might have hidden in waiting...or an officer they were friendly with through Quan's father's work could have asked them for a ride
and performed a hit which has nothing to do with anything we know about -- revenge, money, love, the usual suspects.

Then look at his behavior afterwards. Why would he go to such trouble to kill them so quietly they weren't discovered until the next day...and then
make no attempt to hide at all? Has there ever been a "snapped" spree killer who calmly checked into a hotel under his own name, showing a photo ID,
and chilled out until he was named as a suspect? If Dorner did it, he would know they'd be looking for him, but he doesn't start acting like a man
who is being hunted until they name him as a suspect. He couldn't possibly think they wouldn't connect him, if he had done it -- indeed, based on
the manifesto, there is no reason for him to have done it in secret at all.

Right, remember, he didn't join the Navy out of high school -- he started after college, a whole different story.

Speaking of different stories, I'd like to bring up the first incident where Dorner was supposedly encountered directly by the LAPD. Their story is
that Dorner opened fire on a group of officers guarding one of his possible targets, but despite doing enough damage to their vehicle that they were
"unable to pursue" when he fled, the only injury sustained by anyone was so minor that any cop would at least wonder if it had been self-inflicted
to substantiate a false claim, if it weren't part of another cop's story.

Even if every word of this is true, and Dorner somehow managed to be shot at by a whole bunch of cops at once without being hit by any of them despite
being in range to render their vehicle inoperable, and only managed to give one of them a "graze" wound to the head -- why did none of them pursue
on foot?

Why did none of them call for backup, or request after Dorner fled that the area's perimeter be locked down as firmly as possible? Are these things
not SOP? Are they not, indeed, simple common sense? You've got every warm body and your whole arsenal out looking for the guy...and you let him get
away without even trying to catch him?

In the general sub-topic of corrupt police departments... as a citizen of the Atlanta area I can relate. It's pretty common for our local cops to get
outed as members of either of the two big LA gangs ( red and blue ). In fact we've had situations very similar to this one happen in Atlanta - just
much lower profile it seems.

I think that some might have a chip on their shoulders already about the entire Second Amendment subject. But I don't see this as being anything that
TPTB would push in that regard. If this were some yahoo from North Dakota who left his compound, armed to the teeth - and going after the IRS, the
Fed, or just the government in general - I would honestly need to stop, do a whole lot of digging, and then digest it all before I felt secure about
forming an opinion. But this guy was ex-military and ex-cop. It would be counter-productive for the likes of Diane Feinstien to make him a poster
child for gun control because it would undermine the very forces the government relies upon to keep us from taking a swipe at them. The last thing
that anyone in government wants is for their footsoldiers to become English "Bobbies" - trying to fend us off with mace and batons.

I honestly don't know if there is anything fishy here or not. But my instincts tell me that, if there is, it will end up being a departmental issue.
Maybe this guy has the dirt on one of his superiors - or even a major issue regarding the department as a whole and their attempt at silencing him
went horribly, horribly wrong.

Regardless of that being possible... we will likely never know. At this point in the game there is little to no chance that this man will be taken
alive. Even if he walked out naked, unarmed, with his hands sky high - he's killed cops ( rather the cops will believe he has ) - and they will
likely light him up like a Christmas tree the second they see him.

The part that keeps catching me... he seems to have been upset about the abuse. But he joined the freaking LAPD. It isn't like they aren't world
famous for abusing minorities. Everyone knows about Rodney King. But it is also easy to find proof of abuses against Latinos, Asians, Pacific
Islanders, etc. In short, joining the LAPD and being shocked or angered about police abuse is somewhat like taking a job in a slaughterhouse and then
acting surprised that all those poor cows are being killed.

Great points, Heff, thank you. And to be clear, I'm not proposing that he definitely was a plant, or that he obviously has secret dirt, or anything
-- I have no one theory right now. I'm just trying to make sense of a narrative which, as you say, just doesn't add up.

Your point about the abuse is stellar. Shocked, he was shocked...to find corruption and brutality in the LAPD? To discover that police officers keep a
code of silent mutual protection? A college graduate and Navy SEAL believed so much in the system that these things drove him INSANE to encounter?

For me, getting him into the backseat of that car is the most crucial point, because there's nothing subjective about it. There's nothing about it
which requires knowing what he was thinking, which is always dangerous to try to predict when someone is unstable. He could be thinking the little
fairies told him to do it. But the little fairies can't open keypad locks or break camera security systems so badly they apparently had to go into
the witness protection program. The little fairies can't fit a nearly 300 pound man into a backseat and keep two people from noticing him before they
get into the car, and they can't convince those two people to let him into the car. So how do we get him there?

But whatever aspects you and others find to be compellingly mysterious, I want to try to document and explore, because I feel like if we put
everything we know and speculate together, a clearer possible TRUE narrative might begin to emerge.

What I've proposed as a possibility is that the manifesto either omitted even more incendiary, incriminating information which Dorner was threatening
to expose, or that he put it in the manifesto and the LAPD removed it before giving the manifesto to the press -- remember, the LAPD itself, the very
people trying so hard to kill this guy they're shooting innocent women, is our only source for this "manifesto", and we have no idea how accurate
it is or if Dorner even actually wrote it.

Anyway, why would Quan and Lawrence need to die in the above scenario? Dorner decided to break Daddy's little girl's heart by telling her some
hideous crime Quan participated in during his service days, and she had to be eliminated to keep the whole thing together, perhaps? I don't know.

But I do know there is no way Chris Dorner somehow shrunk himself down and surprised those two people from the backseat of their car, or was let into
it by them, and that there is no other way to put their killings on him. And I do know that the LAPD does not want to talk about the security tapes
from the parking complex at all.

I mean, this is the freaking LAPD. Even MSM-following people who usually tremble in social horror at the thought of being branded a conspiracy
theorist -- or, as I prefer, an alternative information enthusiast

-- if you said to them "I think maybe the LAPD could be lying about this"
would go "What made you think they might be telling the truth?"

I think it's a real possibility that Dorner was framed. I have a feeling we are witnessing the unravelling of of the MSM before our eyes.

I'm sure that if he was framed, that this isn't an isolated incident. The diference now versus 10 years ago is the speed at which information can
reach the masses. 10-15 years ago, we really only had a handfull of news sites, the TV, radio and newspapers.

Now, with sites like Twitter and FB -- (and of course ATS!) people can share and discuss information and collaborate to find the logistical flaws in
the purported "facts". We really are pulling the curtain aside and seeing what's probably been going on for a very long time. Other recent "events" (I
won't go off topic) starting around 01' are perfect examples of the blatant failure of not only our media, but our LEO's and agencies as well.

What I find interesting is that they do admit to security cameras, but won't even give us a picture of Dorner walking away. In the words of ATS:

Pics or it didn't happen!

ETA: (OK, we know it did happen, but maybe not the way LAPD wants us to believe it did)

The MSM, police and government can't keep pulling the wool over the eyes of the masses for much longer. There are more people asking questions than
ever before -- with access to more information, faster than ever before.

What if the daughter was killed to punish her father by someone (or some group) in LAPD? Her boyfriend is killed so there is no witness. Then Dorner's
facebook page is hacked and the manifesto is posted to frame him. Dorner is killed after he checks into the hotel and his body is in a freezer
somewhere waiting for the right time to be dumped. Or Dorner finds out that he is the suspect and runs.

edit on 9-2-2013 by Magister because:
Changed "a suspect" to "the suspect"

Why release all this information when, as with the Aurora and Connecticut shootings, media blackouts on information have become the new "norm"?

I think the release of information is obviously calculated and intended as character assassination, and that should be considered seriously. The
government has openly admitted they legalized the use of propaganda, and this may well be just what you are seeing.

Couple that with both media ineptness we witnessed from Connecticut, and media corruption from the likes if the NBC editing scandals, and take
everything with a bucket, not a grain, of salt.

I think you are asking all the right questions. A story is being presented, he is a high value target, a droneable, shoot to kill citizen.

It is only right to ask why. He is tried and convicted in the media, and we will witness his execution. All based on alleged, questionable
information, yet, people are eating it up as fact.

Welcome to the New America, where you are now guilty until proven innocent. And this story as it unfolds, is your raging proof.

Just on CNN website home page under US: VIDEO: Sniper Questions Dorners Skillslink
It shows a video of an interview with a sniper who plainly states that hopefully he is in the rugged mountains so the the DRONES can do some
work....words not verbatim.

WHAT IF this is all a way to bring the validity and "usefulness" of Drones to the forefront of how good they will be for our protection?? If this
man is killed by a drone, I will not be surprised.

Maybe this guy considers himself the first Judge Dredd? And maybe indeed he will be the one to start this up? Considering the current corruption
inherit in all branches of the legal system, from the highest judge, to the lowest cop, maybe this is what is neeeded. Someone to clear up the
corruption. Of course he will be painted in a bad light by the current administration, but if he is badass enough, he might just succeed.

Originally posted by MystikMushroom
This is a good thread. I like it. "Just the facts, ma'am!"

I think it's a real possibility that Dorner was framed. I have a feeling we are witnessing the unravelling of of the MSM before our eyes.

***OFF TOPIC REMARK***

I don't think that this is showing us that the MSM are unravelling, but rather this event is showing us
the MSM's weakness. They are forced to only present information handed to them by whom they're reporting on. If a News agency starts attacking a
group, then that news outlet is barred from attending anymore press releases from that group. Large News Agencies like the BBC, Al-Jazz, CNN, MSNBC,
and yes even FoxNews have to play nice at these press releases or else they get barred.

It's even worse for local stations that cover these events. If LAPD gets asked a question that makes them look bad (like how could someone with
special river operation training get a rope caught in a boats prop) then the LAPD would just call up that station and tell them that the reporter is
barred from attending anymore press releases. The station at that point either fires the reporter, or puts them on leave for a while.

We're all hard on the MSM, but in most cases their hands are tied.

***BACK ON TOPIC***

As I sugested in the other thread, what if Quan and Lawrence were killed by a cartel hit squad, or Al-Qaeda
in Mexico? Given the nature of how this situation is going down with little to no help so far from the Feds, I think we need to look at what each
player has brought to the game. (Players in this case refer to named people in the manifesto, and the game refers to the truth of whats taking place)

The evidence that points to Dorner being setup is very high, and it's good that some people in the media are beginning to dig a little more in to
what lead up to this event.

Originally posted by Starwise
Just on CNN website home page under US: VIDEO: Sniper Questions Dorners Skillslink
It shows a video of an interview with a sniper who plainly states that hopefully he is in the rugged mountains so the the DRONES can do some
work....words not verbatim.

WHAT IF this is all a way to bring the validity and "usefulness" of Drones to the forefront of how good they will be for our protection?? If this
man is killed by a drone, I will not be surprised.

If this man is killed by a drone, what happens next will make the Rodney King riots look like a bit of high-spirited mischief.

If this man is killed by a drone, no one will EVER dissuade me of the absolutely firm belief that this incident was staged in order to create massive
social unrest and justify national martial law.

You say words not verbatim -- I'll be back shortly with a transcript, though it should be kept in mind this person is not necessarily privy to inside
information and is just assuming and hoping that a drone will be used.

Currently, I have no reason to believe they would use a drone on him, so I don't think the above "ifs" will come true. I'm just saying, if that
did happen, we'd eventually be looking back at that day as the one on which everything changed...again.

Originally posted by Magister
What if the daughter was killed to punish her father by someone (or some group) in LAPD? Her boyfriend is killed so there is no witness. Then
Dorner's facebook page is hacked and the manifesto is posted to frame him. Dorner is killed after he checks into the hotel and his body is in a
freezer somewhere waiting for the right time to be dumped. Or Dorner finds out that he is the suspect and runs.

It's certainly more plausible than that she was killed by Dorner -- still can't see a way to get him into the backseat of that car where he has to
be in order to do that -- and also fits his unusually unconcerned behavior right up until he was named as a suspect days after the killings.

There's something interesting about Quan Sr. (who represented Dorner in the disciplinary hearing, for those following along), which I pointed out in
the other thread. Just like Dorner, aside from being former LAPD, he once had a job as a cop, a police chief, in fact, from which he was fired, and
which he appealed, claiming that his dismissal was the result of his complaints about a black woman being hired. The case was settled for around
$50,000. Quan is now a lawyer, and knows how to game the system. And lawyers collect enemies left and right. They also know a lot of criminals. DId
Quan practice criminal law? Will look into this.

Is the strangely short timeline of Dorner's LAPD career not due to any mysterious military work, but because he was running a long con that went bad?

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