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Although Ricetec was initially awarded a patent, India took a very aggressive stance against it with the US and this was later revoked. I was in the US for close to 7 years and had been following this very closely. Right now, the only patent Ricetec holds is for the 3 strains developed by it.

Another personal observation here that India is perceived as a "soft nation" in various posts here. I think not. If you see the recent international incidents-Devyani Khobragade, Augusta Westland bank guarantees encashment, Italian marines and WTO stand recently, we DO KICK ASS. This is more apparent if you travel abroad and see our stand as viewed by Western point of view.

The fact today is our IAF have yet to get the Su-30 working properly. It has an abysmal availability rate of less than 50 per cent. Its radar keeps failing, its expensive Israeli jamming pods have failed to integrate with the aircraft.

One defense analyst told me that while India has spent huge amount of money in 'MKIsing', IAF is not able to get 'MKI' to perform what it was intended for. He said Chinese have taken the base Sukhoi model and developed on it and it is a working aircraft for Chinese. He went on to say that one of the reason behind IAF's decision for MMRCA is because of the SU-30 unavailability.

What is the opinion of the experts of BRF on availability, integration, radar etc?

The fact today is our IAF have yet to get the Su-30 working properly. It has an abysmal availability rate of less than 50 per cent. Its radar keeps failing, its expensive Israeli jamming pods have failed to integrate with the aircraft.

One defense analyst told me that while India has spent huge amount of money in 'MKIsing', IAF is not able to get 'MKI' to perform what it was intended for. He said Chinese have taken the base Sukhoi model and developed on it and it is a working aircraft for Chinese. He went on to say that one of the reason behind IAF's decision for MMRCA is because of the SU-30 unavailability.

What is the opinion of the experts of BRF on availability, integration, radar etc?

The writer of this article, has a long history of writing nonsense which has been documented repeatedly on the forum. He belongs to the "think tank" Observer Research Foundation of Ambani. Other gems from this individual in the past from New York Times:

Forum members should do basic research before posting the opinions of all and sundry, think for yourself not what others are saying, doing etc., better still no need to post at all. This fellow is everywhere, Sandia, Los Alamos, etc etc. He also thinks the Nuclear posture of India is bad. He does not want India to raise conventional forces as it hardens the nuclear posture of TSP. On the other hand he does not say it but leaves to the reader to guess that he wants India to openly declare withdrawal of NFU. The decision is already foregone no, with Arihant soon to go on operational patrol. Will they keep things de-mated now and ask a DRDO team to be on board all SSBN's to do the mating? This NFU is just a red herring nonsense, means diddly squat. Sorry OT but I wanted to just point out what drivel this Abhijit Iyer-Mitra writes.

With all the respect to the defense analyst (unless he was Zaid Hamid - mods my apologies), can you ask him whom did we impress in Red Flag exercises with Training (wonly) Mode radar ON with 80-90%+ mission availability ? Please also ask him when first MKI was introduced in IAF and when did IAF projected the MMRCA requirements?

One defense analyst told me that while India has spent huge amount of money in 'MKIsing', IAF is not able to get 'MKI' to perform what it was intended for. He said Chinese have taken the base Sukhoi model and developed on it and it is a working aircraft for Chinese. He went on to say that one of the reason behind IAF's decision for MMRCA is because of the SU-30 unavailability.

I dont vouch for this person... But I did see a recent conversation posted by Stratpost in youtube in which a retired IAF chief's claimed something similar... Saurabh Joshi (Stratpost Blogger) also claimed in the same video that as per Govt. of France rafale availability was around 45% in front of all the retired chiefs \ vice chief's.. to which one replied it was shocking ... I do know that Saurabh is inclined towards (or probably lobbying) for Gripen..

Bhaskar_T wrote:With all the respect to the defense analyst (unless he was Zaid Hamid - mods my apologies), can you ask him whom did we impress in Red Flag exercises with Training (wonly) Mode radar ON with 80-90%+ mission availability ? Please also ask him when first MKI was introduced in IAF and when did IAF projected the MMRCA requirements?

One defense analyst told me that while India has spent huge amount of money in 'MKIsing', IAF is not able to get 'MKI' to perform what it was intended for. He said Chinese have taken the base Sukhoi model and developed on it and it is a working aircraft for Chinese. He went on to say that one of the reason behind IAF's decision for MMRCA is because of the SU-30 unavailability.

With no replacement engines. Which nation had the highest availability?

Most of this enlightened questioning is only to muddy the waters for MKIs and Rafales. Usage of pet peeves and personal difficulties of ex-honchos, general funding anemia and simple accumulated karma of indigenous incapabilities, to malign everything and by inference the targeted systems too.

Not related to the ongoing discussion, but found this interesting article on the different variations of SU 30s and what India and the other countries got. Apologies if this was already posted, and pls. delete if not relevant

A Sukhoi-30 MKI fighter aircraft crashed at Wadegaon near Wagholi, outskirts of Pune. Both the pilots managed to bail out safely from the aircraft that crashed soon after taking off from Lohegaon airbase. This is 5th crash of Su-30 MKIcourtesy : IBNcourtesy :jetphotos.net

The jet appears to be SB 050 from 20th Squadron "Lightnings" based at Lohegaon Air base in Pune. The aircraft is from 3rd batch, 2002 and is not HAL manufactured .

previous crashes of su-30 mki1. 30 April 2009 at Rajmathai village, around 170 km from Jaisalmer, incorrect position of critical switches behind the pilots and outside their field of view. one pilot dead and the other injured.2. 30 November 2009 in Jathegaon, about 40 km from Jaisalmer , attributed to accidental ingestion of a foreign material in the engine intake. Both the pilots ejected safely.3. 13 December 2011 at Wade-Bholai village, 20 kilometres from Pune, crash was due to a malfunction in the fly-by-wire system. Both the pilots ejected safely4. 19 February 2013 at Pokhran range during the rehearsal of the Iron Fist Exercise, caught fire soon after trying to drop a 100kg bomb from the aircraft. Both the pilots ejected safely.

One thing to note is that the aircraft has comedown almost wholly in one piece, I am not sure if it can be salvaged which is besides the point. couple of positives:1) the Plane had just taken off, so it should be pretty full with fuel but there is no fire.2) both Pilots bailed out safely (thank god) so essentially the plane was in a high speed free fall. But still it has not broken down into peices.3) Tail is still intact.

What is surprising is the fact that the site has not been secure and people are even standing on the wing? As it was pretty close to the Lohegaon AFB, I would have expected MPs and Garud to be there before Presstitudes show up.

looks to like it glided in and did a controlled belly landing. the droopy nose did crack which might not happen on a more upturned bartania type f16/f15 nose. the pilots might have got time and electrical power to pump out all fuel before landing.

most of the avionics on the dorsal bays and maybe even the engines could be salvageable. even the radar in the cone might be intact.

I suspect a belly landing effort by the pilots. A jet without a pilot can't end up like that in my view... and Pilot must have exited while the aircraft was pushing through tall grass --- the air-frame is old---2002..... and it has been a display aircraft on many airshow..

Gentlemen, if you look up wadegaon on Google maps, you'll see it almost straight line from main runway. And not very far. So, pilots had very less time, a few seconds maybe, to take the decision they did. Also, Wagholi is a major habitation and almost a peripheral suburb of Pune. So, my hunch is that pilots encountered a problem the moment they took off. But instead of ejecting straight away, they literally guided the a/c to this area. Had they ejected right away, this plane would've landed on a pretty thickly populated area.

I suspect an engine problem the moment they took off at pretty shallow altitude. They've literally ploughed that a/c there.

Sometime soon, I expect to hear a good account about pilots risking their lives to ensure plane did not harm people and property on ground.

rohitvats wrote:Gentlemen, if you look up wadegaon on Google maps, you'll see it almost straight line from main runway. And not very far. So, pilots had very less time, a few seconds maybe, to take the decision they did. Also, Wagholi is a major habitation and almost a peripheral suburb of Pune. So, my hunch is that pilots encountered a problem the moment they took off. But instead of ejecting straight away, they literally guided the a/c to this area. Had they ejected right away, this plane would've landed on a pretty thickly populated area.

I suspect an engine problem the moment they took off at pretty shallow altitude. They've literally ploughed that a/c there.

Sometime soon, I expect to hear a good account about pilots risking their lives to ensure plane did not harm people and property on ground.

Bird hit? If you check out the video, the jet has crash landed right in front of a temple.

New Delhi: A Sukhoi-30-MKI - India's mainstay fighter jet - crashed 20 km from Pune on Tuesday evening; fortunately, both pilots ejected safely from the plane which had taken off from the air force base in Pune for a training sortie.

The Sukhoi, which was first introduced in the Air Force in 1997, was for years considered a safe and reliable aircraft. Yesterday's accident marks the fifth crash by a Sukhoi.

Concerns about the reliability of the Sukhoi-30 MKI have been accruing in recent months with several planes reporting engine failure.

India has 200 of these planes currently; another 70 jets have been ordered from the Russian manufacturer.

Based on recent complaints, the Air Force has started servicing the engines of these fighter jets after 700 flying hours, instead of the stipulated 1,000 hours. The Air Force says this hits its operations fairly hard - the servicing required is a lengthy process which leads to the plane being grounded for about a week.

As another precaution, the engines are also being modified according to specifications provided by the Russian manufacturer. That engineering is being handled in Odisha by HAL - Hindustan Aeronatuics Limited, which is a state-run company. The engine modifications will be carried out in batches over the next 18-24 months, said sources. They will then go through extensive testing before being fitted for the fleet.

Analysis by the Air Force shows that the Sukhois have been malfunctioning regularly since 2012. For the last four years, many of the fighter jets have been forced to make emergency landings using only one of the twin engines.

The Su-30MKI can fly at 2,400 kmph or achieve a rate of climb of 230 metres per second. The Sukhoi-30MKI are scattered across the country at bases including Bathinda, Jodhpur and Tanjavur in Tamil Nadu, where the planes are tasked to police the Bay of Bengal and Andaman Islands.

rohitvats wrote:Gentlemen, if you look up wadegaon on Google maps, you'll see it almost straight line from main runway. And not very far. So, pilots had very less time, a few seconds maybe, to take the decision they did. Also, Wagholi is a major habitation and almost a peripheral suburb of Pune. So, my hunch is that pilots encountered a problem the moment they took off. But instead of ejecting straight away, they literally guided the a/c to this area. Had they ejected right away, this plane would've landed on a pretty thickly populated area.

I suspect an engine problem the moment they took off at pretty shallow altitude. They've literally ploughed that a/c there.

Sometime soon, I expect to hear a good account about pilots risking their lives to ensure plane did not harm people and property on ground.

Bird hit? If you check out the video, the jet has crash landed right in front of a temple.

Twin engines are relatively immune to bird hits. Could be like something worse - like fuel line or sudden loss of control/hydraulics or something. Anyhow the pilots will be able to state what happened. Thank god they are OK

I am surprised that the authorities do no cordon off the immediate area to prevent anyone from approaching the air craft. Are there no concerns about someone accessing the remains of the avionics, and other machinery in the aircraft?

Kashi wrote:I am surprised that the authorities do no cordon off the immediate area to prevent anyone from approaching the air craft. Are there no concerns about someone accessing the remains of the avionics, and other machinery in the aircraft?

This seems to be the case with all air crashes

Since the crash site is near to an airbase, the populace around that area are aware of importance of aircraft parts, so they will not let anyone to pick up a part and runaway. At best, they will allow of photography and at rare cases allows a few chaps to climb up of aircraft (to assess damage and for curiosity).

rohitvats wrote:Gentlemen, if you look up wadegaon on Google maps, you'll see it almost straight line from main runway. And not very far. So, pilots had very less time, a few seconds maybe, to take the decision they did. Also, Wagholi is a major habitation and almost a peripheral suburb of Pune. So, my hunch is that pilots encountered a problem the moment they took off. But instead of ejecting straight away, they literally guided the a/c to this area. Had they ejected right away, this plane would've landed on a pretty thickly populated area.

I suspect an engine problem the moment they took off at pretty shallow altitude. They've literally ploughed that a/c there.

Sometime soon, I expect to hear a good account about pilots risking their lives to ensure plane did not harm people and property on ground.

The improved safety standards today ensured a safe evacuation.

My uncle , demonstrating a crappy MiG 29 to a visiting defence minister from the very same airbase in Pune, tried to guide the crippled aircraft away from habitation, but lost his life when he was unable to eject in time.

narendranaik wrote:And US maal is equally unreliable. Time to prop up our own factories

Yes, and Indian maal, a country which has lesser experience in making fighter aircraft and industrial production in general, will be far better in reliability to these other countries' who have been making them since 1915?

mahadevbhu wrote:Yes, and Indian maal, a country which has lesser experience in making fighter aircraft and industrial production in general, will be far better in reliability to these other countries' who have been making them since 1915?

Not necessarily, but then you have more control over the quality, better mechanisms for redressal, better chances of feedback being carefully and seriously considered and of course faster turnover that if you were to source stuff from overseas.

Asa for your comment about since 1915, British made the first trains and introduced them to Japan who only started making theirs much later. Now which country makes trains with better performance, reliability and quality?

Add in the factor that the MKIs are now made in India,"70%" indigenous materials,etc. We earlier had decades of quality control controversies between the IAF and HAL.The more sophisticated the aircraft,the greater the need for zero defect manufacture and maintenance.I've posted in the JSF td. the engine [problems plaguing the F-35.What is happening is that as more and more composites are being used,esp. for structural members,the failure rate,cracks,etc. are increasing.In the case of the JSF engine fire,the engine "flexed" after a 2 second manouevre causing rubbing of stators,blades,etc which led to the fire.We have to be exceptionally careful in ambitions of increasing composite % in the LCA,FGFA and AMCA from the JSF's experience.

Nevertheless,a through inquiry should be held into SU-30MKI engine failures if they are as frequent as the report suggests.

Philip wrote:Add in the factor that the MKIs are now made in India,"70%" indigenous materials,etc. We earlier had decades of quality control controversies between the IAF and HAL.The more sophisticated the aircraft,the greater the need for zero defect manufacture and maintenance.I've posted in the JSF td. the engine [problems plaguing the F-35.What is happening is that as more and more composites are being used,esp. for structural members,the failure rate,cracks,etc. are increasing.In the case of the JSF engine fire,the engine "flexed" after a 2 second manouevre causing rubbing of stators,blades,etc which led to the fire.We have to be exceptionally careful in ambitions of increasing composite % in the LCA,FGFA and AMCA from the JSF's experience.

Nevertheless,a through inquiry should be held into SU-30MKI engine failures if they are as frequent as the report suggests.

You seem to have already made up your mind that it was HAL's fault. We should have the decency to wait for CoI.

Two crashes five years apart. Two punch-outs. Two very close shaves. Twice lucky. That's the story of the pilot in command of the Su-30 MKI that crashed yesterday in Pune: Because it turns out he was also the pilot in command of the first Indian Su-30 MKI that crashed in 2009. And both crashes with apparent similarities.

Wing Commander Sidharth V. Munje survived the Su-30 MKI's first crash in Indian service five years ago, while his co-pilot on that flight Wing Command Pushpendra Singh Nara succumbed to injuries sustained post-ejection. In yesterday's crash, both Munje and his co-pilot Flying Officer Anup Kumar survived without any major injuries and currently being treated at a Pune military hospital.

Lots of similarities too. The first time, it was engine trouble. This time that appears to be the case too (though it's still too early to say). Both times, Munje and his co-pilot ejected at very low altitude.

Details of precisely what went wrong yesterday are still trickling in, but what's available strongly suggests that Munje and his co-pilot were real heroes in the air yesterday. They grappled to control a doomed fighter and eject only after ensuring it would glide into a sugarcane field, away from a built-up area that may have been the site of impact had the pilots chosen to eject earlier. The zone where the aircraft may have gone down is a built up area that has therefore likely had a close shave.

The IAF is still piecing together the full sequence of events, though it appears clear at this time that Munje and his junior had mere seconds to take a decision after lift-off. It isn't clear yet what happened once they got airborne from Lohegaon. Will be staying with this story to get you more this week.

James B wrote:Details of precisely what went wrong yesterday are still trickling in, but what's available strongly suggests that Munje and his co-pilot were real heroes in the air yesterday. They grappled to control a doomed fighter and eject only after ensuring it would glide into a sugarcane field, away from a built-up area that may have been the site of impact had the pilots chosen to eject earlier. The zone where the aircraft may have gone down is a built up area that has therefore likely had a close shave.

This is where this relative of mine, Rakesh Madan, flying the MiG 29 in 1992 met his end - trying to guide the bird away from civilian areas.