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The article says nothing about actual exposure. It's not even known whether the guy is positive or not. This guy may have been using condoms all along and his partner is negative as a result of it.

And the quote you mentioned might just be due to the ignorance of others that him, you, and I know exist. Not saying I agree with non-disclosure, but I can certainly understand his stance. I'm going to reserve judgement on this one until more details are given.

We don't even know if the former partner is HIV+ -- but that doesn't make a difference, does it? It's the law.

Almost all HIV/AIDS legal organizations decry laws such as the one under which Mr. Chiacchia is charged. Jesus, in Louisiana I could be sentenced to prison for spitting on or biting someone, but since it's the law it must be right. "In 2008 in Dallas, an H.I.V.-positive man was found guilty of spitting at a police officer and is serving 35 years in prison." -- from the article above. I guess you hate that bastard too?

I have always disclosed my status and believe it is the only ethical option but that is my personal belief. Until I know more about this case I feel it's unfair to pass judgment on anyone. I have no qualms about sending someone to prison who knowingly infects another (without that person's "consent") but if the virus hasn't been transmitted it's just a stupid law.

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String up every aristocrat!Out with the priests and let them live on their fat!

He knew he was HIV+ and slept with someone without telling them. Essentially he took the choice out of their hands on whether or not they wanted to sleep with someone who was positive. No amount of moral relativism can distance him from that statement. Disclosure is all we have to protect ourselves from stigmatization. Give someone else the decision to make instead of selfishly keeping the information to yourself and >potentially< putting them at risk.

I will cheerfully agree to prosecute those who do not disclose their status before having sex if the other, presumably consenting partner is prosecuted and treated for attempted suicide for the same act.

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"Many people, especially in the gay community, turn to oral sex as a safer alternative in the age of AIDS. And with HIV rates rising, people need to remember that oral sex is safer sex. It's a reasonable alternative."

He knew he was HIV+ and slept with someone without telling them. Essentially he took the choice out of their hands on whether or not they wanted to sleep with someone who was positive. No amount of moral relativism can distance him from that statement. Disclosure is all we have to protect ourselves from stigmatization. Give someone else the decision to make instead of selfishly keeping the information to yourself and >potentially< putting them at risk.

"moral relativism" -- are you related to William F. Buckley, Jr., by any chance?

"protect ourselves from stigmatization?" What dimension do you live in, Trey? I'm very open about my status and being gay but there are tons of other people who, for reasons I may or may not understand or agree with, live in their HIV closets. Many do so because they know they would be stigmatized by disclosing. From personal experience I know once I disclose it's a 50/50 shot if the other guy runs off but I will always disclose no matter what happens.

My gay.com profile has always indicated my status. I've never had a mancunt account. I think anyone who hides his status in an online profile is a cowardly jerk. What's the point of attracting someone if he's going to run off when you disclose in person?

Since you only discovered your status when you were seriously ill in the hospital you clearly hadn't been tested in some time if ever. How many people did you infect? How many people did you kill? Ignorance is no excuse.

P.S. You might want to consult a dictionary for the definition of "moot."

« Last Edit: April 15, 2010, 09:39:58 PM by Boo Radley »

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String up every aristocrat!Out with the priests and let them live on their fat!

So the only way to avoid being a jerk is to never get tested. Because anyone with an axe to grind can claim that a person never disclosed.

Problem solved. Well, except in California, where the lines are murky enough to disallow ignorance of one's status as an excuse.

Seems to me that the people who beat this particular drum the loudest are those whose own pasts hold acres of guilt and shame. It also leads directly into the "innocent victim" versus "predator" argument. In this way, it is strikingly similar to the oral sex transmission argument.

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"Many people, especially in the gay community, turn to oral sex as a safer alternative in the age of AIDS. And with HIV rates rising, people need to remember that oral sex is safer sex. It's a reasonable alternative."

"I'm actually kinda curious why they don't have some sort of mandatory testing for HIV. Even if it was only once every 4 years (say with your driver's license) it would be a way to make sure everyone is being checked for the communicable potentially lethal virus."

I was too stunned to respond to such a brilliant suggestion. How could anyone refute such logic?

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String up every aristocrat!Out with the priests and let them live on their fat!

Why not go one further, and publish test results each week in the paper? Like they do for divorces? Based on the logic that nothing beats the stigma more quickly than disclosure, then surely this is the ultimate answer.

Granted, a negative result is tricky, given current standards of testing. But it's a start!

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"Many people, especially in the gay community, turn to oral sex as a safer alternative in the age of AIDS. And with HIV rates rising, people need to remember that oral sex is safer sex. It's a reasonable alternative."

Why not go one further, and publish test results each week in the paper? Like they do for divorces? Based on the logic that nothing beats the stigma more quickly than disclosure, then surely this is the ultimate answer.

Granted, a negative result is tricky, given current standards of testing. But it's a start!

Typical namby-pamby bleeding heart liberal ideas... as much as I detest dirty, godless commies I think Fidel Castro had the right idea -- quarantine us all. I think Carville is available since most of the lepers have left but we may need a bit more room.

I mean, if we're really serious about ending AIDS in the USA this is the only solution. The Final One at that.

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String up every aristocrat!Out with the priests and let them live on their fat!

If I find myself back in the dating/sex scene, I couldn't have anal sex without telling the person my status--I'm talking about even when using condoms. I couldn't let the guy suck me either without disclosing. However, if I were sucking him only, I wonder if I would tell. I have read the receptive partner (the suckee, if you will) of oral sex can get other STD's from the sucker's mouth, but virtually impossible to get HIV--unless I was bleeding to death all over his dick and he had an open sore.

So, I would tell for all other sex, but probably wouldn't if I were the one performing oral on him. Does that count as not disclosing when we should? Maybe it does??

"I have tried hard--but life is difficult, and I am a very useless person. I can hardly be said to have an independent existence. I was just a screw or a cog in the great machine I called life, and when I dropped out of it I found I was of no use anywhere else."

So, I would tell for all other sex, but probably wouldn't if I were the one performing oral on him. Does that count as not disclosing when we should? Maybe it does??

Yes, thats a big sticking point for me.

Here's my thought process...If I disclose that im Poz chances are I wont be sucking dick with the guy in question. If I dont disclose and he finds out that im Poz somehow, how will that make me look? Or what if by some weird cosmic occurence sucking his dick turns into a commited relationship (lol, right), what then? I'm still not clear on what needs to happen regarding disclosure in this (me sucking) situation.

It's all to worrisome for me, perhaps I shall just become a celibate HIv+ Monk.

Here's my thought process...If I disclose that im Poz chances are I wont be sucking dick with the guy in question. If I dont disclose and he finds out that im Poz somehow, how will that make me look? Or what if by some weird cosmic occurence sucking his dick turns into a commited relationship (lol, right), what then? I'm still not clear on what needs to happen regarding disclosure in this (me sucking) situation.

It's all to worrisome for me, perhaps I shall just become a celibate HIv+ Monk.

-Will

I see your point. If he found out I was poz and he turned out to be poz as well from someone else, I could see where he could say I gave it to him. We've all been seeing many stories about people being prosecuted. That brings up something else. In a case where you do disclose, how would you prove you told that person if they got it from someone else or from you. Do you need to video the disclosure process? Sounds ridiculous, but it seems like there is a prosecution story every week. How do they prove you didn't disclose to them? In the cases where several people come forward saying you didn't disclose, I could see. If it is just one person, it is their word against yours.

Here's my thought process...If I disclose that im Poz chances are I wont be sucking dick with the guy in question. If I dont disclose and he finds out that im Poz somehow, how will that make me look? Or what if by some weird cosmic occurence sucking his dick turns into a commited relationship (lol, right), what then? I'm still not clear on what needs to happen regarding disclosure in this (me sucking) situation.

It's all to worrisome for me, perhaps I shall just become a celibate HIv+ Monk.

-Will

But didn't you read the breathless posts about the women who pre-chewed food for their babies? Oral transmission is not only possible, but LIKELY. As is KISSING, apparently. Forget the research and the long term studies. Forget the science. This is about reactionary supposition!

After all, to quote the departed but remembered Luke, there is not a scintilla of science to support the notion that saliva is harmless, that oral sex is a theoretical mode of transmission (at best) and that stigma will vanish as soon as we all 'fess up to our vampiric nature.

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"Many people, especially in the gay community, turn to oral sex as a safer alternative in the age of AIDS. And with HIV rates rising, people need to remember that oral sex is safer sex. It's a reasonable alternative."

He knew he was HIV+ and slept with someone without telling them. Essentially he took the choice out of their hands on whether or not they wanted to sleep with someone who was positive. No amount of moral relativism can distance him from that statement. Disclosure is all we have to protect ourselves from stigmatization. Give someone else the decision to make instead of selfishly keeping the information to yourself and >potentially< putting them at risk.

I see your point. If he found out I was poz and he turned out to be poz as well from someone else, I could see where he could say I gave it to him. We've all been seeing many stories about people being prosecuted. That brings up something else. In a case where you do disclose, how would you prove you told that person if they got it from someone else or from you. Do you need to video the disclosure process? Sounds ridiculous, but it seems like there is a prosecution story every week. How do they prove you didn't disclose to them? In the cases where several people come forward saying you didn't disclose, I could see. If it is just one person, it is their word against yours.

Videotape each and every encounter. its the only way to be sure.

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"Many people, especially in the gay community, turn to oral sex as a safer alternative in the age of AIDS. And with HIV rates rising, people need to remember that oral sex is safer sex. It's a reasonable alternative."

In a case where you do disclose, how would you prove you told that person if they got it from someone else or from you. Do you need to video the disclosure process? Sounds ridiculous, but it seems like there is a prosecution story every week. How do they prove you didn't disclose to them? In the cases where several people come forward saying you didn't disclose, I could see. If it is just one person, it is their word against yours.

May sound ridiculous, but unfortunately it may be a safe bet. If I was on the scene myself I would have a document notarized with the negative woman's signature perhaps, or just go the safe route like I did and only date positive women.

The law is definitely unfairly stacked against us, if I've learned anything over the last 5 years through observance it's that. Some of these people are locked up without anyone becoming positive, done so simply cuz they didn't disclose.

Thank goodness, there is no personal responsibility for the poor IHV negative victims o us monsters! And I agree with the earlier. If INSERTIVE oral is considered a felony without disclose, then surely KISSING would be. And given that HIv can be claimed to spread through saliva, then any human contact would be a potential risk. Maybe that guy who sat in a puddle of liquid in Vegas a few years ago was right?

Maybe all HIV science is wrong?

Maybe we are, upon infection, monsters, and the rest of the world, potential victims?

I mean, if we are to follow this logic to it's obvious conclusion.

And it's not like I have a shred of evidence to the contrary, unless you ask

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"Many people, especially in the gay community, turn to oral sex as a safer alternative in the age of AIDS. And with HIV rates rising, people need to remember that oral sex is safer sex. It's a reasonable alternative."

I guess to protect yourself, we should get out our cell phones and video ourselves telling the person and have them agree they know and the date of the video. It does sound ridiculous and ruins the mood, but after reading those stories about HIVers being prosecuted, like Skeebo said, when no one even turned up poz, would make me worried if I were in the dating/sex scene again.

Thank goodness, there is no personal responsibility for the poor IHV negative victims o us monsters! And I agree with the earlier. If INSERTIVE oral is considered a felony without disclose, then surely KISSING would be. And given that HIv can be claimed to spread through saliva, then any human contact would be a potential risk. Maybe that guy who sat in a puddle of liquid in Vegas a few years ago was right?

Maybe all HIV science is wrong?

Maybe we are, upon infection, monsters, and the rest of the world, potential victims?

I mean, if we are to follow this logic to it's obvious conclusion.

And it's not like I have a shred of evidence to the contrary, unless you ask

Here's my thought process...If I disclose that im Poz chances are I wont be sucking dick with the guy in question. If I dont disclose and he finds out that im Poz somehow, how will that make me look? Or what if by some weird cosmic occurence sucking his dick turns into a commited relationship (lol, right), what then? I'm still not clear on what needs to happen regarding disclosure in this (me sucking) situation.

It's all to worrisome for me, perhaps I shall just become a celibate HIv+ Monk.

I've not been in the situation yet but I don't think I'd disclose my status. It's my business and I'm choosing not to disclose. But I would do everything possible to make sure the sex was protected and the guy wasn't at risk.

I have to agree with Miss Philicia there does seem to be alot of overthinking the disclosure thing.Either you feel morally obligated to disclose or you don't. Let it go, don't judge, take a breath because some of us have a harder time disclosing than others. I truly think if it is such a big deal stick us on an island and allow us to freely fuck our brains out I refuse to worry anymore I hear it is bad for my t-cells. Plus if kissing becomes a problem then might as well call the police cause I ain't disclosing shit before I kiss cause if you can't kiss I can't trust you or want anything else...

If we are just thinking about the moral choices of the accused, remember, the NEWS IS INCOMPLETE:

we do not know if he and his ex were having safe sex. we do not know if he was on HAART and undetectable. We don't even know if the ex was informed or not - maybe the ex is on some revenge trip after a messy break up or o something. And we don't know if there was transmission.

And these laws sorta suck, by the way. but they have their advantages, as well.

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“From each, according to his ability; to each, according to his need” 1875 K Marx

We do actually know that he didn't disclose and he also details why. To summarize he states that he couldn't tell him with the threat that his partner might leave and tell other people he was positive. No excuse in my opinion. This guy was sleeping with him for at least a year and half the entire time being knowingly positive. You guys can chide me for being newly infected or riding atop my moral high horse all you want, but I figure that the negative partner in this situation had a right to know what he was getting into, once his partner found out. I do however agree that this should not be 30 year prison sentence worthy.

I think the bottom line is that everyone has a responsibility to protect yourself , I got my transmission from my x lover ,and I should have protected myself and not leave it to anyone else , I mean personly I tell my partners that I am pos,but many people really dont know ,and trully accidently pass it , then those like this man who knows and still passing it or exposing to others is wrong ,and needs to be punished but everyone please protect yourself and be responsible ..thats all I am saying

We do actually know that he didn't disclose and he also details why. To summarize he states that he couldn't tell him with the threat that his partner might leave and tell other people he was positive. No excuse in my opinion. This guy was sleeping with him for at least a year and half the entire time being knowingly positive. You guys can chide me for being newly infected or riding atop my moral high horse all you want, but I figure that the negative partner in this situation had a right to know what he was getting into, once his partner found out.

No one is saying he shouldn't have. All of us here support disclosure, look up just one of the people you are currently arguing with posting history and I can guarantee you will find proof of this. Please don't take this wrong, I am typing gently here, but a lot of newly infected people have a difficult time accepting their responsibility in their own infection. It's one thing to say you do, but it's sometimes difficult to in the beginning and to be honest... once again I'm saying this nicely, I don't think you've fully accepted your own part in your infection. I know it was a huge problem for me...

I do however agree that this should not be 30 year prison sentence worthy.

And you are further along than I was, because I wanted them dead and buried under the jail. How would any time spent behind bars help? It kind of sends a message to the negative population, a false sense of security mind you, that people are going to disclose their status... never taking into account the person honestly may not know. Each of these cases puts a red X on all of us, and consequently makes disclosure harder for many.

I truly think if it is such a big deal stick us on an island and allow us to freely fuck our brains out I refuse to worry anymore I hear it is bad for my t-cells.

DONE!!!!!!

Purchase a one way ticket to Mexico, with a connection to Havanna, and your wishes can be accomidated. ALL HIV+ people in Cuba are placed in camps, with huge fences around them, on the western part of the island; and locked up for life!

Enjoy, your wish is already done!

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The Bible contains 6 admonishments to homosexuals,and 362 to heterosexuals.This doesn't mean that God doesn't love heterosexuals, It's just that they need more supervision.Lynn Lavne

Cuba boasts the lowest rates of HIV/AIDS in the Caribbean—if not the world. Should the credit go to the country’s early, internationally condemned policies aimed at stemming the spread of the disease? And what’s in store for this island nation now that its borders may reopen to Americans?

"The government is deeply concerned that this newCuban society will undermine one of the revolution’sgreatest achievements: its health care system. Cubanhealth care officials worry about the impact thatprostitution and the increase in tourism will have onthe incidence of sexually-transmitted diseases(Márquez, 2000). As countries around the Caribbeansuffer from AIDS epidemics, Cuba has remained almostintact. Only .02% of the Cuban population isafflicted with the virus. In Haiti, 190,000 people(5.17%) and in the Dominican Republic 83,000(1.9%) suffer from the disease (www.webster.edu).23

In the 1980s and early 1990s, Cuba took an aggressiveposition to limit the disease. In 1986 the entireblood blank was destroyed and replaced with new,tested blood. By 1994, 96% of the population hadbeen tested for AIDS. Thirteen AIDS sanatoriumswere set up for afflicted patients. HIV patients are requestedto spend 3-6 months at these sanatoriumswhere they receive medical care and counseling onhow to live with the disease. By 1999, only 577 peoplehad died of AIDS and 2142 were infected withHIV (http://www.cubasida.net).

Over the past several years, there has been an increasein new HIV cases. According to Doctor Jorge Pérez,director of the Los Cocos sanatorium, gay men, whoconstitute 56.3% of the afflicted population, aremore prone to contract the disease. The El NuevoHerald reported that many gay hustlers would havesex upon request without a condom. One hustlerclaimed that he would have unprotected sex, butwould charge $100-$150 for the added risk (“Laprostitución,” 2000).

The government relies on sex education and AIDSawareness to stop the further spread of the disease.Sex education is mandatory for students and beginsin 6th or 7th grade. Condoms are widely available andvery affordable."

PROSTITUTION AND SEX TOURISM IN CUBACharles Trumbull

Given how hunky a cuban gigolo can be, and the cheap price, maybe Cuba should have HIV travel restrictions. Just kidding, but isn't this one of the reasons for the Cuban Revolution in the first place, that it was a mob-controlled immoral pleasure pit?

Back to the thread's topic:

What about prostitutes and johns. Whats the disclosure ethics there? I know two cute kids in my town who are positive and turn tricks without saying a word.

« Last Edit: April 16, 2010, 06:01:36 PM by mecch »

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“From each, according to his ability; to each, according to his need” 1875 K Marx