00:00:19 drewc: these little snippets on how you do things are interesting. you seem to have setup a very comforting environment
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00:20:03 madnificent: well, working as a CL developer for the last 8 years or so has made me make sure that my env is proper and comfortable, for me. Most of the things I have done are related to issues that I have, and since I code CL for 6-18 hrs every day, comfort is important, and fixing the 'issues' doubly so/
00:20:07 .
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00:21:42 anyone use cl-plplot?
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00:23:21 jasom: stability is probably the real reason why no telco will deploy an Oracle-backed product in anything smaller than HA cluster ;)
00:24:52 heh ... the last time I had to deal with oracle was lisp-related! I added UTF-8 to the C program that CL connected to with a socket to talk to oracle... that was 2007 or so.
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00:25:25 drewc: I'm unfortunately starting an utterly lisp-less job where the database is Oracle
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00:26:17 there's another project that might result in a bit of using sensible high-level languages, but it's uncertain
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00:27:42 well, I can recommend learning SQL and oracles version of pl/pgsql, whatever it is called. , before chosing an unrelated high level lang ;)
00:28:46 drewc: no-one is planning on touching the PL/SQL stored procedures, afaik. No one gets them, either ;)
00:29:00 (maybe DBA can grok that code... :D)
00:29:20 but the other project is basically startupping on the side
00:29:38 wonder if anyone has bothered embedding ecl into postgres yet (:
00:29:44 lisp stored procs that would be neat (:
00:30:49 drewc: that's exactly why i like them
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00:32:37 antifuchs: I did so like 2005 or so... before I realized that lisp was not made for CREATE FUNCTIONs at all :)
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00:33:53 drewc: well, there are tons more supported languages now.
00:34:07 (stored procs in js? check)
00:34:09 mainly because there are very few lispers who are also postgresql experts, and since I know/have worked with one of the postgresql developers, well ... I do not mind PG experts at all :)
00:34:19 s/are/were/ I think (:
00:34:45 I'd consider postmodern a revival of postgres in the lisp world (:
00:36:03 yup .. we use it so much that we know everything that is wrong with it, which is a lot, but s-sql is pretty good and the rest can be 'fixed' :)
00:36:24 heh
00:37:42 and, heh, (:raw ...) works , and S-SQL:SQL-COMPILE is there, so yeah, not so bad at all.
00:39:22 (I prefer to write raw sql to s-expressioned sql tbh)
00:39:33 grep -ir postmodern ./ |wc -l
00:39:36 281
00:40:28 well, the thnig that I like about s-sql is the fact that I do not forget the syntax very often.
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00:41:06 that said, raw sql vs sexp, I do not mind sql and do not mind sexps, so it really depends.
00:41:34 heh, yeah. I like "it depends" as an answer (:
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00:42:44 hell, last week i did probably over 350 lines of raw SQL code, and not a single bit of sexps, so how can I say I prefer s-sql over STRING :)
00:45:03 it seems to me that any time i"ve done significant amounts of db work, I end up having to generate SQL a lot. s-sql is much nicer for composing funny things than raw sql :\
00:45:04 haha, sounds like you're going the quantified self route (:
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00:45:59 we also have thousands of lines of pl/pgsql at work, which makes me die a little inside every time I see it.
00:46:03 sykopomp: heh ... I feel/know the exact opposite :)
00:46:32 *drewc* has very few lines of pl/pgsql, but when he does it is needed
00:47:04 we had a macro-ified 50-join-or-so query at a previous place I was at.
00:47:17 for example the HSTORE trigger thingies is one where pl/pgsql is required.
00:47:17 :<
00:49:47 yikes... I am glad that I usually am a part of the design of databases, and beyond that, would _never_ have more then say 5 joins per SELECT ... CREATE TEMPORARY TABLE, WITH and WITH RECURSIVE are how to avoid that issue, imo
00:50:33 it was necessary
00:51:00 that query created the big rollup table that we did much simpler queries off of.
00:51:39 *sykopomp* is probably exaggerating the number of joins, but remembers the query being about 2+ pages of s-sql.
00:51:50 well, without seeing the code itself, WITH can get rid of that 50 joins things in a single select, so exactly what was needed?
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00:52:02 oh .. heh .. lispers doing sql. nm.
00:52:15 :P
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00:52:28 I actually like writing raw SQL just fine.
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00:52:49 when I code Lisp, I like s-sql because I get to use paredit, and actually doing weird metaprogramming isn't that common at all.
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00:53:17 the Erlang counterpart to s-sql seems like an abomination with funny dependencies, though, so I haven't touched it.
00:53:18 I just hate the single quote thing when going back and forth between lisp and sql ...
00:53:33 'string' vs "string" ... ugh
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00:53:58 irrelevant in most cases, since you should be using $1/?/whatever your library uses.
00:54:01 ;)
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00:54:31 select * from message where message_type =
00:54:46 'offer' .... damn! :)
00:54:46 select * from message where message_type = $1
00:55:00 select * is naughty, drewc
00:55:03 tisk tisk
00:55:05 :)
00:55:14 true dat :)
00:56:47 *sykopomp* is off to do unimportant things.
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00:57:12 *drewc* will now mention that the function I wrote last week has a $10 .. 10 args ... ugh
00:57:25 s/I/he .. or whatever
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05:08:41 how can i find out how many arguments a function takes?
05:14:17 PCChris [~PCChris@dhcp-199-74-100-55.res-hall.northwestern.edu] has joined #lisp
05:15:17 in sbcl you can use (sb-introspect:function-lambda-list #'function)
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05:16:07 though the best way is simply to use slime and let autocompletion figure it out
05:17:06 no portable way? i wanted to do it programatically
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05:18:13 frx, FUNCTION-LAMBDA-EXPRESSION exists portably, but there's no guarantee it'll be able to return the information you want
05:18:30 frx: implementations are allowed to not keep track of that information.
05:18:37 implementations may choose to throw away information like lambda lists after being compiled
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05:23:21 function-lambda-expression didn't work. swank-backend:arglist did though. :)
05:25:31 paste.list.org is still down? Or did it ever come back from the Friday downtime?
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05:32:12 another Sandy victim? :|
05:34:51 sykopomp: Dunno. I know that paste.lisp.org was down at the end of last week, presumably from the Friday "traffic surge" in N. America (never did follow that one up). And now, paste.lisp.org is down. The question is: "still" or "again"?
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06:08:42 fa
06:08:47 yikes
06:08:55 wrong window :)
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06:27:23 *nydel* is away: msg-me-if-you-like
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08:19:24 My memory must be slipping away.... In CL, how does one escape the newline in a string so that the newline doesn't appear in the result i.e., write a long string on multiple lines?
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08:21:45 moore33: http://www.lispworks.com/documentation/HyperSpec/Body/22_cic.htm
08:22:19 Does anyone have an opinion about "ANSI Common Lisp" by Graham? I noticed that it is a book with exercises.
08:22:48 guaqua:Thanks, but that is only in FORMAT.
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08:23:40 mrcarrot: it's an ok introduction. graham has a few non mainstream opinions about CL.
08:23:58 moore33: strings as such do not have such mechanisms in CL
08:24:41 mal_: Is it possible to give short explanation of what he differs with?
08:24:52 you can bake a reader macro for that
08:25:00 (and there are probably a few already)
08:25:22 mrcarrot: he's not a big fan of LOOP or CLOS. his style is more scheme like.
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08:26:28 jdz: I'm guessing you are right, though I thought I remembered something. I want to write the doc string for a class slot without the newline introduced by the editor for formatting, and I was trying to avoid having a long line in the source. Oh well. Thanks but no thanks for the reader macro suggestions!
08:26:47 no prob :)
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08:27:16 mal_: With more "scheme like", does it mean that he is using more functional programming, or what do you mean with it?
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08:27:45 mrcarrot: He's big on tail recursion, which is not so ideomatic in the CL world.
08:28:20 mal_: yes, and things like more Lisp-1 style. it's a small detail but naming his parameter lst when he could just as well use list in CL
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08:34:36 moore33: you could also use read time evaluation instead of a custom read macro, e.g. #.(format nil ...) in place of the docstring
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08:35:18 Vivitron:Cool idea.
08:35:59 moore33: and that does not count as a reader macro?
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08:37:56 jdz: Sure, and I don't think I'll use Vivitron's suggestion. When guaqua mentioned reader macros, I was thinking more of a custom macro character for parsing strings.
08:38:02 Well, it's not introducing a new one -- I assume he's alreadying using #\' and #\( &c
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08:40:24 moore33: btw, what's the problem with newlines in docstrings? every other code has them.
08:43:00 I've considered this before myself because it's convenient for me to have docstrings formatted at a similar width to my code, but default indentation of slot docstrings makes it awkward to get that without line-wrapping in the code
08:44:14 Vivitron: line wrapping in code or in docstrings?
08:45:30 jdz: to get 70 or 80 chars for a line in the slot docstring would result in a longer line in the code with the code formatted as desired
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08:46:34 Vivitron: so the docstring has a newline in there. docstrings usually are longer than that, right?
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08:49:04 jdz: I like the first line of the docstring to be a self-contained summary of the item. It's a minor nit, really, and I never used the #.(format nil ...) trick myself
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08:49:20 is there any ide equivalent to netbeans for common lisp?
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08:50:22 blbef: no, but there is a superior environment.
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08:51:11 I believe there exist CL plugins for eclipse if you're not going the emacs route
08:51:11 blbef: superior because it is called "The Superior Lisp Interaction Mode for Emacs"
08:51:24 -!- paul0 [~paulo@177.41.243.179] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds]
08:51:54 never mind the real origin of that word in there
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08:54:07 jdz, so slime is better than netbeans?
08:54:36 blbef: for many values of "better", yes
08:55:21 blbef: for starters, using slime implies using a real editor
08:55:32 to use slime effectively, you need to learn emacs. if you are against learning, that is bad. if you are for learning and would like to not learn a new ide every 5 years, that is good
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08:58:13 thats completely my intention
08:59:09 blbef: programming lisp is very interactive, usually writing/trying one defining form at a time
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09:04:05 blbef: it's less graphical, but it doesn't tend to get in your way as much. much of why slime is better is, imho, emacs being a superior editor. similar to vim, it offers a way to minimize the physical travel your hands have to make to get complex editing done, and that turns out to be quite important.
09:06:33 -!- foo303_ is now known as foo303
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09:09:15 interesting but is it true that its compared to other uncommon and if yes why?
09:11:37 blbef: the best (and easiest) way would probably be for you to try out for yourself
09:11:49 jdz: it takes some time to learn
09:12:18 blbef: if you want to become a good programmer, emacs certainly isn't a good skill to have. even if you don't want to become a programmer, it may save you a lot of time. look at org-mode for instance, it's just handy :)
09:12:26 madnificent: yes, one will never learn by reading about it without actually sitting down and using the damn thing
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09:18:15 s/isn't/is in what madnificent said (since he himself did not correct it)
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09:26:43 blbef: indeed, with 'look at' i mean 'try out' :)
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09:32:40 jdz:Not to beat a dead horse, what Vivitron said re slot documentation. I don't mind the newlines in function docstrings.
09:33:33 blbef: Clozure Common Lisp has an integrated IDE that people seem to like, especially if they have been Macintosh Common Lisp users.
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09:55:49 (let ((x 1))) because let is a special operator; normal evaluation rules don't necessarily apply
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10:02:39 let is not a function
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10:05:39 let is a macro expressed using lambda?
10:06:13 no, it's a special form
10:06:15 no, let is a special operator.
10:06:25 one of the few fundamental parts of the language
10:06:33 isn't it implemented as a macro?
10:06:49 no.
10:07:19 doomlord: it could be expressed using a lambda, but it's a special operator. close though
10:07:46 it is implemented as a special operator.
10:09:02 i guess the special operator is a toolchain optimization, it would get out of hand nesting so many lambdas
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10:10:02 let* is a nested set of lets then perhaps
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10:10:49 CLHS says (3.1.2.1.2.2): "An implementation is free to implement a Common Lisp special operator as a macro."
10:10:51 let* is also a special operator.
10:12:20 morphling: sounds like that fits :)
10:12:26 morphling: it's a welcome addition though
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10:14:49 doomlord: I understand that SBCL transforms let into lambda.
10:16:04 internally in the compiler yes, but it is not implemented as a macro.
10:17:02 (i.e. try MACROEXPAND on it)
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10:23:38 yes, I was just replying to doomlord's speculation that "it would get out of hand"
10:23:59 that is why I said 'transforms' rather than 'macroexpands'
10:24:11 as it is a compiler transform, not a macro expansion.
10:24:56 though it couldb e expanded to a bunch of lambdas depending ont he implementation, and then doing bunch of reductions ... scheme does it all the time.
10:25:06 anyway, it is still a special not a macro :0
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10:26:44 'then doing a bunch of reduction' , ok
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10:28:09 doomlord: yes ..
10:28:12 what part was unclear?
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10:34:55 ams: that's not necessarily correct either though. it's a special, but it can be implemented as a macro. saying that it's not a macro needs a lot more context, at best.
10:35:22 either case, i think everyone gets it by now
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10:59:28 I really like "ANSI Common Lisp" by Graham. Out of all the material I have looked at so far, it is the most clean and without too much unnecessary talk.
10:59:58 mrcarrot: It gives pretty poor treatment to several important features of Common Lisp.
11:00:17 mrcarrot: graham is a great writer. you'll need to read other books to fully grasp common lisp, though.
11:00:27 -!- agumonkey [~agu@183.217.72.86.rev.sfr.net] has quit [Quit: Lost terminal]
11:00:38 particularly the object system and package system
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11:00:43 mrcarrot: sonya keene's book is a good treatment of clos
11:01:01 and xach's upcoming book on the cl package system is also recommended :)
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11:02:00 *phrixos* needs to make more reading tme
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11:18:23 It will be an ebook of delightful size and content
11:21:03 and very moderate pricing
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11:22:06 blbef [~chatzilla@089144206127.atnat0015.highway.a1.net] has joined #lisp
11:22:17 moderate, but fair
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11:27:32 how can this be made with lisp ide? -> "Design GUIs quickly and smoothly by dragging and positioning GUI components from a palette" -> http://netbeans.org/images_www/v7/design/overview/ui_development.png
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11:28:21 blbef: look at allegro cl or lispworks if you need a lisp that supports gui development conveniently
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11:31:08 there is clib
11:31:18 common lisp interface builder
11:31:29 ams: show some screen shots.
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11:32:33 blbef: i personally found ltk to be reasonably nice to work with too, though a tad limited in what it supported at the time (don't know if it has evolved). we use the brawsers of teh interwebz as a target platform here.
11:33:22 ams: where is clib?
11:33:23 clim interface builder even ..
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11:34:29 http://www.cs.cmu.edu/afs/cs/project/ai-repository/ai/lang/lisp/gui/clim/clib/0.html
11:34:38 people who write GUI CL applications for money often use LispWorks CAPI
11:35:14 i write cl for money, i don't use software that deprives me of my freedom to hack though.
11:36:01 -!- [SLB]` is now known as [SLB]
11:37:16 Here's a cookie.
11:37:25 Xach: thanks, would you like a beeR?
11:37:31 H4ns, i would like to use open source, but these seem to be good
11:37:59 madnificent, ltk , is there a windows version?
11:38:05 blbef: personally, i'd just use clim and be done with it...
11:38:07 blbef: there is no open source interactive gui construction toolkit for common lisp.
11:38:12 never seen the benefit of using a IB
11:38:18 H4ns: CLIB.
11:39:05 blbef: if you are into osx, i think you can use lisp and apple's interface builder together.
11:39:37 "requires CLIM 1.1" whoo boy
11:39:47 apple tools have lisp support?
11:39:58 they used to use lisp long ago?
11:40:00 H4ns, i have no apple computer
11:40:01 doomlord: no, clozure cl has apple tools support.
11:40:32 I think I read the paper on CLIB years ago; it's cool that the source is available.
11:41:01 i ported clib to clim II ... and some other stuff.
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11:41:45 I take that back. Where is the source?
11:42:59 for clib? check one of the old cmu ai-repo directories...
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11:43:09 for my stuff? ~/lisp/clib/
11:43:53 ams: The link to the cmu repo that you posted above has a tgz that contains... fasl files.
11:44:32 moore33: You have Allegro CL for SPARC, right? Just load it.
11:44:59
11:45:05 moore33: oh? maybe i disassembled it... go figure, was a bunch of years back
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11:45:30 anyway, a good retirement project :)
11:45:32 m|
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11:48:50 moore33: ah, no i asked the author to send me the code..
11:49:35 which still reminds me that i should publish lisp lore somewhere; got the copyright from springer and lamson to do so.
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11:51:51 isn't that the tutorial text for a specific version of genera that has never been updated to newer versions? if i regret buying one lisp book, then it is this one. :)
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11:52:20 but please publish it to save other people from making the same mistake.
11:52:52 H4ns: yeah
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11:53:03 That's a great book.
11:53:08 -!- [SLB]` is now known as [SLB]
11:53:17 H4ns: some years ago i asked springer for premission to publish it, verbatim, etc...
11:53:39 H4ns: was on basis that i would get ack from the authors, so lamson, and that other guy i forgot (for the 2nd ed)
11:54:38 H4ns: richard had the source for the book on a TD8, but we couldn't find anyone with a machine to read it ..
11:54:51 think it was also the 1st ed..
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11:55:38 but now i've gotten it scanned, and such and well, just publish it somewhere, with written permission from springer.
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11:57:07 ams:I'm seperated from my copy by 600km at the moment... I think my edition of the book uses Flavors. Do both editions?
11:57:25 moore33: i'm not sure about the 1st one.
11:57:39 2nd ed uses flavours..
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11:58:35 For those of us who never used Genera in anger, I found it a pretty good introduction to Dynamic Windows and CLIM ideas.
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11:58:48 yeah, it is a good book
11:58:58 even if it was for bolix
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12:00:25 wouldn't mind getting my hands on cltl1
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12:00:44 I've got one of those in a box somewhere.
12:01:06 1st ed?
12:01:10 Yeah.
12:01:22 GIVE ME NOW!
12:01:28 GIF M33!!
12:01:32 precious ...
12:01:41 Again, 600km away... until next week.
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12:01:56 run.. run now..
12:02:00 Seriously, if you are interested, I'm sure something could be arranged.
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12:02:07 i am :-)
12:02:13 i collect old lisp manuals.
12:02:45 jtza8 [~jtza8@105-236-248-68.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has joined #lisp
12:02:55 as do i :)
12:03:49 ams: What continent are you on?
12:04:01 moore33: europe
12:04:15 ams: Even better.
12:04:40 Can anyone explain this one: (apply #'list 1 nil )
12:05:08 mrcarrot: what is there to explain?
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12:06:29 ams: I know it will return (1) but I do not understand why.
12:07:10 mrcarrot: (describe 'apply)
12:07:25 Slight change of topic: I remember CLtL2 being dissed at the time of the ANSI effort as not being about actual ANSI CL, a distraction from the standards effort, stelling x3j13's thunder, etc.... but it's all bullshit. It's a very readable reference.
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12:07:55 moore33: it is a reference to a language that has no implementations.
12:08:05 neither did cl :-)
12:08:17 H4ns: Are you sure? :)
12:08:58 moore33: from the perspective of #lisp, i am sure.
12:09:05 I would say that several CL implementations were pretty close to CLtL2 at the time.
12:09:13 Is CLtL2 still in print?
12:09:18 prolly not
12:09:46 not many lisp books are longer in print :(
12:11:07 is there a reason why the biggest open source ides are not supporting lisp?
12:11:37 blbef:Lisp developers don't hack on those IDEs.
12:12:30 why
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12:12:44 Why would they want to?
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12:13:03 I realize that this sounds pretty obnoxious :)
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12:14:44 blbef: don't use CLIM, and I don't know.
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12:19:06 blbef: becasue we have emacs, and emacs was designed for lisp.
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12:19:23 and to be a sane editor... which can't be said about "ide's"
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12:21:41 to wit, show me one ide where i can modify things to make it easier for me to hack...
12:22:39 my favourite example is using sawnk and stuff like swank::menu-choices-for-presentation
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12:31:15 blbef: i think you can run lisp in eclipse
12:31:49 ams: also, that's a very very poor reason to use Emacs. something is either good, making it worth using, but being designed for something doesn't make it worth using.
12:32:33 ams: in an analogy i assume you'll like: microsoft windows was built for users which know little about computers, but that doesn't make it the 'best' operating system for them, not by far.
12:33:49 blbef: my guess is that many people who get into lisp learn emacs because it's the best supported environment. once you know either VIm or Emacs, you'll likely not want to swap to a more modern-day IDE anymore because they are less efficient to work in. editing text and code is simply slower in said editors. though that's my guess. i certainly wouldn't mind better support in the 'modern IDEs'
12:35:54