Dammit. I'm going tomorrow with a big group of Tiger fans. Was looking forward to seeing them go up against Verlander with the one guy they have who could match him. This sucks.

Why, Robin, why did you have him throwing 127 pitches in mid-April???

Boondock Saint

04-21-2014, 05:31 PM

****. I'm going Sunday, and that game was gonna be Sale/Price.

hawkjt

04-21-2014, 05:32 PM

Dammit. I'm going tomorrow with a big group of Tiger fans. Was looking forward to seeing them go up against Verlander with the one guy they have who could match him. This sucks.

Why, Robin, why did you have him throwing 127 pitches in mid-April???

He still only went like 7 innings....I blame the damn Red Sox and their refusal to swing at pitches...or just foul them off.

Our bullpen was used up, and Robin left him in for 7 innings...should not be a capital crime.

Huisj

04-21-2014, 05:47 PM

Now that I think about it, I think this is the second time I've had tickets for a potential Sale-Verlander game only to have the rotation shuffled at the last minute. It happened in 2012 when they decided to give some random spot starts to Pedro Hernandez and Dylan Axelrod in the middle of a week so that everyone got pushed back, and it ended up being Peavy instead of Sale. It was like they were just picking names out of a hat for who would start each day.

amsteel

04-21-2014, 05:54 PM

Like Garcia, the loss of Sale for anytime isn't really gonna affect the outcome of the season. If this were next year, or more likely 2016, this might be a much bigger deal.

Foulke You

04-21-2014, 06:03 PM

Like Garcia, the loss of Sale for anytime isn't really gonna affect the outcome of the season. If this were next year, or more likely 2016, this might be a much bigger deal.
Still too early in the season to make that declaration. There seems to be a lot of parity in the AL so far this year with nobody running away with anything. While I agree that the Sox are hardly favorites to make the postseason, with two wild cards in play, it is too early to concede a season in April and quite disappointing to miss having your ace go up against the division favorites. The Sox injury bug has really been contagious this year.

amsteel

04-21-2014, 06:13 PM

Still too early in the season to make that declaration. There seems to be a lot of parity in the AL so far this year with nobody running away with anything. While I agree that the Sox are hardly favorites to make the postseason, with two wild cards in play, it is too early to concede a season in April and quite disappointing to miss having your ace go up against the division favorites. The Sox injury bug has really been contagious this year.

To even be in the conversation for the playoffs the Sox need to make a 25 game improvement over last year. I'd be thrilled to see a 15 game improvement.

doublem23

04-21-2014, 08:57 PM

Just pushing him back to the weekend so they can advertise tickets to the K-ZONE

Wedema

04-21-2014, 09:03 PM

Just pushing him back to the weekend so they can advertise tickets to the K-ZONE

They also need to add another section to the K Zone (how about one in right field corner as well) as I walked up around 6:30 p.m. on Thursday and it was sold out.

That one particular performance may not have caused the problem. The difference between going 105 pitches vs 127 is not that great when you consider the stress he's putting on his body in the type of games he's pitching on a consistent basis. It's probably something that's been building up over time. Either way, it is terrible news.

ChiSoxGal85

04-21-2014, 09:46 PM

****. That is all. :angry:

cards press box

04-21-2014, 09:50 PM

Hey, it sounds like the MRI could have been a lot worse!

shingo10

04-21-2014, 09:55 PM

Hey, it sounds like the MRI could have been a lot worse!

Way to be positive. Deep breathing everyone. We have an offense that, when its at its best, can sustain mediocre pitching.

Sale has had a track record of missing starts around this time period and he has bounced back so hopefully that will be the case this season as well.

Moses_Scurry

04-21-2014, 10:04 PM

Seeing this thread subject brought me crashing down from the buzz from tonight's win. Get well soon Chris. We need you!

During his last start, in the game thread, I stated that Robin is an absolute idiot for letting Sale go that long in a mid-April game. Sho-nuff here are the repercussions.

kittle42

04-21-2014, 10:19 PM

Thank you, Rob-in! Clap! Clap! Clap, clap, clap!

*Yes, I know it is not all Robin's fault or anything, but he sure as **** isn't helping.

Also, brilliant idea tossing Rienzo out there yesterday when you knew you'd have to start him in a few days.

Boondock Saint

04-21-2014, 10:20 PM

Oh, so you have proof that it was the last 10 or 15 pitches that hurt him?

There's no question that Robin overextended Sale there. How would it be even the slightest bit better if Robin kept him in the game to throw all of those pitches when Sale's arm was jacked up before it even got to that point?

WhiteSox5187

04-21-2014, 10:21 PM

Thank you, Rob-in! Clap! Clap! Clap, clap, clap!

*Yes, I know it is not all Robin's fault or anything, but he sure as **** isn't helping.

Also, brilliant idea tossing Rienzo out there yesterday when you knew you'd have to start him in a few days.

Seriously, Robin appears to be getting worse with each year. I know that last year there wasn't an awful lot he could do but he still made some very perplexing decisions (intentionally walking Getz, for example) and this year...man. I can't even attempt to understand his logic for some of these things.

JB98

04-21-2014, 10:27 PM

To say the management of the pitching staff this season has been brutal would be an understatement. Sale and Webb are two of the few guys on the staff you want to protect, and both have been handled recklessly. It's inexcusable. Hopefully, Sale makes a quick recovery and is able to pitch the rest of the season without incident. But no more 127-pitch outings on cold nights, please.

shingo10

04-21-2014, 10:32 PM

If only Robin would have had some damn managerial experience before being hired, he would have realized that 126 is Sale's limit.

anewman35

04-21-2014, 10:33 PM

There's no question that Robin overextended Sale there. How would it be even the slightest bit better if Robin kept him in the game to throw all of those pitches when Sale's arm was jacked up before it even got to that point?

If you say so.

Boondock Saint

04-21-2014, 10:36 PM

If you say so.

Dynamite counterpoint.

anewman35

04-21-2014, 10:42 PM

Dynamite counterpoint.

It's hard to argue with "There's no question". There is a question. He's had one-or-two week issues like this each of the past two years. Clearly not every one is due to Robin pitching him 127 pitches, since he's never done that before. You're the expert, exactly how many pitches should he pitch?

Additionally, here's a quote from Hahn: “There was certainly no indication at any point before that start or during that start that he was in the least bit of jeopardy of doing any damage to himself,” Hahn said. “I don’t know the cause, but I do know we’re not going to mess around with this guy if he doesn’t feel like he’s 100 percent or experiencing any soreness.”

Now, I fully realize that even if he somehow KNEW (like you KNOW) that it was due to Robin throwing him too much, he probably wouldn't throw Robin under the bus like that. On the other hand, I think I trust Hahn (even Hahn with a possible motive to lie) more than somebody just guessing on a message board.

Boondock Saint

04-21-2014, 10:57 PM

It is absolutely mind-numbing to me that, for a decade now, people on this site can rip Dusty Baker for overusing Mark Prior and Kerry Wood, especially in cold weather, then when Robin overuses Chris Sale in cold weather, it's backtrack city.

I'm a grown man with a basic understanding of the concept of causality. I'm not going to make a dismissive wank gesture with one hand while the other digs a hole in the sand for me to bury my head in simply because it's one of our guys who screwed up.

I'm not saying that Robin's ruined Sale, that would be ridiculous. But it absolutely was the wrong decision to have Sale throw 127 pitches on a cold night, and it didn't take hindsight to realize it.

TDog

04-21-2014, 11:03 PM

That one particular performance may not have caused the problem. The difference between going 105 pitches vs 127 is not that great when you consider the stress he's putting on his body in the type of games he's pitching on a consistent basis. It's probably something that's been building up over time. Either way, it is terrible news.

This is the most sensible post I've read in this thread. And, realistically, if throwing 127 pitches, with minimal work out of the stretch is going to be a problem, and it only gets a pitcher giving up just one run through six innings, some of the blame has to go to the pitcher, who knew that to win the game he was going to have to go deep into the start after the 14-inning loss the night before.

I can't blame Ventura for bringing Sale in for the sixth. I don't know where, at what specific point in the sixth I can blame Ventura for not going to the overworked bullpen. And I'm not so sure Sale would have been better for it.

Striking out hitters can run up your pitch count. If that is going to be an issue relating to the health of your arm, you need to find a more economical way to get hitters out. In this age when pitchers pithces are being counted, I find I'm more impressed with pitchers who get outs to contact and go deeper in the game.

gobears1987

04-21-2014, 11:05 PM

I'm just glad I got to see him pitch a few weeks ago in KC.

It's probably best to take precautions and preserve him by putting him on the DL. I don't care what his stats are this year. I care what he does in a few years.

ddog528

04-21-2014, 11:22 PM

Thank you, Rob-in! Clap! Clap! Clap, clap, clap!

*Yes, I know it is not all Robin's fault or anything, but he sure as **** isn't helping.

Also, brilliant idea tossing Rienzo out there yesterday when you knew you'd have to start him in a few days.

It was pretty much considered a side session. Big deal

Soxman219

04-21-2014, 11:49 PM

I'm not worried, we'll see him in two weeks. He's fine. In the meantime, I want to see how Leesman and Rienzo handle the Tigers lineup the next few days. Who's gonna be the 5th starter.

127 pitches is just ridiculous. Ventura has been doing that sort of thing since day 1. Pitched Jones and Reed 5/6 days last year for absolutely no legitimate reason at all and nonsense like that.

I don't know why the Sox refuse to hire a real manager.

LoveYourSuit

04-22-2014, 01:05 AM

Bring on Leesman. I'll take any LH pitcher since our pile of RH pitchers just suck.

cards press box

04-22-2014, 06:35 AM

127 pitches is just ridiculous. Ventura has been doing that sort of thing since day 1. Pitched Jones and Reed 5/6 days last year for absolutely no legitimate reason at all and nonsense like that.

I don't know why the Sox refuse to hire a real manager.

But doesn't Don Cooper have a lot of say about the handling of pitchers?

dickallen15

04-22-2014, 07:47 AM

But doesn't Don Cooper have a lot of say about the handling of pitchers?

Yes he does, and he doesn't think much of people who talk about pitch counts.

Noneck

04-22-2014, 09:20 AM

Anytime a pitcher goes on the dl its bad, its even worse when its early in the season and even worse when its the 25 year old star of a team with an unorthodox pitching motion.

voodoochile

04-22-2014, 09:34 AM

Anytime a pitcher goes on the dl its bad, its even worse when its early in the season and even worse when its the 25 year old star of a team with an unorthodox pitching motion.

Freak out much? Can we at least pretend the team is telling the truth that the MRI revealed a muscle issue but no tendon damage for a short while before jumping off the bridge into the sweet dark icy water to nestle in death's embrace?

asindc

04-22-2014, 09:37 AM

Freak out much? Can we at least pretend the team is telling the truth that the MRI revealed a muscle issue but no tendon damage for a short while before jumping off the bridge into the sweet dark icy water to nestle in death's embrace?

NO!! Someone must be blamed!

kittle42

04-22-2014, 09:43 AM

It is absolutely mind-numbing to me that, for a decade now, people on this site can rip Dusty Baker for overusing Mark Prior and Kerry Wood, especially in cold weather, then when Robin overuses Chris Sale in cold weather, it's backtrack city.

I'm a grown man with a basic understanding of the concept of causality. I'm not going to make a dismissive wank gesture with one hand while the other digs a hole in the sand for me to bury my head in simply because it's one of our guys who screwed up.

I'm not saying that Robin's ruined Sale, that would be ridiculous. But it absolutely was the wrong decision to have Sale throw 127 pitches on a cold night, and it didn't take hindsight to realize it.

You, sir, have won the thread.

kittle42

04-22-2014, 09:44 AM

It was pretty much considered a side session. Big deal

Oh. Makes me wonder why starters aren't routinely used in relief when their day for a side session comes up then. Probably because it would be a bad idea.

doublem23

04-22-2014, 09:45 AM

Freak out much? Can we at least pretend the team is telling the truth that the MRI revealed a muscle issue but no tendon damage for a short while before jumping off the bridge into the sweet dark icy water to nestle in death's embrace?

The only thing that terrifies me right now is that a flexor strain is the exact same original diagnosis that Gavin Floyd was given when he went on the DL last year before it was revealed he tore the muscle and UCL.

Oh. Makes me wonder why starters aren't routinely used in relief when their day for a side session comes up then. Probably because it would be a bad idea.

Holy ****, man, chill out, Reinzo's last start in Charlotte was April 14, he was definitely out there just to get a little bit of work in. He'll have thrown a grand total of 1 inning across all levels in the 9 days leading up to his start Wednesday.

SI1020

04-22-2014, 09:55 AM

I continue to be perplexed as to why so many modern day starting pitchers are so fragile. Robin's criminally incompetent because he had his ace throw 127 pitches in an early season game? If your ace is that vulnerable then he's not really an ace. No matter what happens with Sale I will not criticize our manager for this. Just as I thought Dusty Baker was unfairly maligned for the arm troubles of Prior and Wood. I have no idea why Robin Roberts, Fergie Jenkins, Mickey Lolich and Nolan Ryan were so durable for so long. Roberts and Jenkins were control pitchers with smooth pitching motions and good hard sinkers. Lolich and Ryan both not so smooth. Sale's mechanics, which contribute to his nasty stuff, may be producing extra stress on his arm, shoulder and elbow. I just don't know. I do believe that it should not be too much to ask your main guy to occasionally be able to throw more than 100 or so pitches on 4 days rest. Lastly, I did not intend for this to cause one of those pointless angry youngblood vs old fart baseball arguments. I just think good starters should be able log well over 200 IP and even throw the occasional complete game.

DSpivack

04-22-2014, 09:59 AM

I continue to be perplexed as to why so many modern day starting pitchers are so fragile. Robin's criminally incompetent because he had his ace throw 127 pitches in an early season game? If your ace is that vulnerable then he's not really an ace. No matter what happens with Sale I will not criticize our manager for this. Just as I thought Dusty Baker was unfairly maligned for the arm troubles of Prior and Wood. I have no idea why Robin Roberts, Fergie Jenkins, Mickey Lolich and Nolan Ryan were so durable for so long. Roberts and Jenkins were control pitchers with smooth pitching motions and good hard sinkers. Lolich and Ryan both not so smooth. Sale's mechanics, which contribute to his nasty stuff, may be producing extra stress on his arm, shoulder and elbow. I just don't know. I do believe that it should not be too much to ask your main guy to occasionally be able to throw more than 100 or so pitches on 4 days rest. Lastly, I did not intend for this to cause one of those pointless angry youngblood vs old fart baseball arguments. I just think good starters should be able log well over 200 IP and even throw the occasional complete game.

I think it's pretty difficult and perhaps even meaningless to compare pitchers across time. The eras are just so different and I don't know if the idea that pitchers are more fragile now even holds true.

asindc

04-22-2014, 10:01 AM

Oh. Makes me wonder why starters aren't routinely used in relief when their day for a side session comes up then. Probably because it would be a bad idea.

It's been done before in this type of situation.

dickallen15

04-22-2014, 10:04 AM

I think it's pretty difficult and perhaps even meaningless to compare pitchers across time. The eras are just so different and I don't know if the idea that pitchers are more fragile now even holds true.

Nolan Ryan was routinely at 140 pitches in his 40s. Even threw over 160.

Here's is Will Carroll's take. He is a little more qualified than several of the MDs on this board.

Will Carroll
http://bleacherreport.com/articles/2037473-chris-sale-hits-dl-with-arm-problems-sox-look-for-answers-on-aces-injury

Rick Hahn indicated that the soreness was in a similar location and width of location to his previous issues, but that he did not believe that there was any further damage to the elbow itself. (There's some debate as to whether the flexor mass is "elbow" or "forearm," but this illustration (http://jimmysmithtraining.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/10/anatomy1.jpg) shows that it's semantics.)

http://jimmysmithtraining.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/10/anatomy1.jpg

Several sources have told Carroll, there were a couple of teams using diagnostic ultrasound currently, though only a few had it available during games. (Most teams have the unit available but do not have the doctor trained to use and read it available during games.) One of those teams was the White Sox. They could have used this to check the integrity of both the UCL and the flexor mass.

doublem23

04-22-2014, 10:09 AM

I continue to be perplexed as to why so many modern day starting pitchers are so fragile. Robin's criminally incompetent because he had his ace throw 127 pitches in an early season game? If your ace is that vulnerable then he's not really an ace. No matter what happens with Sale I will not criticize our manager for this. Just as I thought Dusty Baker was unfairly maligned for the arm troubles of Prior and Wood. I have no idea why Robin Roberts, Fergie Jenkins, Mickey Lolich and Nolan Ryan were so durable for so long. Roberts and Jenkins were control pitchers with smooth pitching motions and good hard sinkers. Lolich and Ryan both not so smooth. Sale's mechanics, which contribute to his nasty stuff, may be producing extra stress on his arm, shoulder and elbow. I just don't know. I do believe that it should not be too much to ask your main guy to occasionally be able to throw more than 100 or so pitches on 4 days rest. Lastly, I did not intend for this to cause one of those pointless angry youngblood vs old fart baseball arguments. I just think good starters should be able log well over 200 IP and even throw the occasional complete game.

I have two general theories on this...

1) General survivorship. You remember the old workhorses Roberts, Jenkins, etc. for the same reason why when you walk around an old neighborhood in an old city or town, you look at all the beautiful old graystones and think, "they just don't built buildings like this anymore." And yes, you'd be right, compared to a lot of the plaster and drywall crap that gets built now that's no way going to survive a century, but the thing is, you're only seeing the really well built, strong homes from 1900 now because all of the ****ty **** that was built then is all gone. It's not that they ONLY built amazing houses 100 years ago, it's just that only the amazing homes have weathered a century.

Likewise, 50 years from now, people will know the names like Sabathia, Verlander, Maddux, Pettite, Clemens, etc. as the great pitchers of this era who went out and did pitch hundreds of innings every year and they're simply not going to remember guys like Brandon Beachy or Mark Prior or the thousands of other pitchers whose careers were derailed by arm injuries. The standouts get remembered while those that fizzled out just get forgotten. I'm sure there were plenty of pitchers in the 40s and 50s and 60s who succumbed to injury as well, we just don't remember them today because they don't hold the same place in baseball lore.

2) The fundamental nature of the game has changed, mostly due to hitters becoming more powerful. Back in the day, you didn't need to have a devaststing slider or sinker or whatever to get by, the game was much more of a pitch to contact, play defense, and slap the ball around at the plate kind of a game. In 1959, the Indians lead the AL with 167 team HR. Even with HR and offense ticking down a bit since the peak of the Steroid Era insanity, 167 HR was the per team league average in 2013; 8 teams hit more than 167 HR last season. So pitchers can't get away with the kinds of mistakes they did back in the day, which means their pitches have to be sharper and crisper and have a nastier bite which undoubtedly raises the risks of injury.

SI1020

04-22-2014, 10:12 AM

I think it's pretty difficult and perhaps even meaningless to compare pitchers across time. The eras are just so different and I don't know if the idea that pitchers are more fragile now even holds true. I guess you'd have to do an exhaustive study to prove or disprove that. What is without a doubt is that over time starting pitchers have logged fewer and fewer innings. It seems to me that so many talented pitchers in the last 20 or so years have flamed out prematurely. Every time a manager has one of his SP go more than 110 pitches in a game some want to fire them on the spot. You're a really good contributor here but I'm going to stick with my post, however lonely an opinion it may be.

SI1020

04-22-2014, 10:22 AM

2) The fundamental nature of the game has changed, mostly due to hitters becoming more powerful. Back in the day, you didn't need to have a devaststing slider or sinker or whatever to get by, the game was much more of a pitch to contact, play defense, and slap the ball around at the plate kind of a game. In 1959, the Indians lead the AL with 167 team HR. Even with HR and offense ticking down a bit since the peak of the Steroid Era insanity, 167 HR was the per team league average in 2013; 8 teams hit more than 167 HR last season. So pitchers can't get away with the kinds of mistakes they did back in the day, which means their pitches have to be sharper and crisper and have a nastier bite which undoubtedly raises the risks of injury. I like that, it's very interesting. Now back in the day pitchers threw hard breaking stuff but it does seem like there are more varieties of such pitches today compared to the 50's, 60's and 70's. This could very well be a contributing factor and being that I have one of those curious minds I'm going to look for this more in the future. You know watching pitcher's motions and noticing who is going on the DL and what does he throw.

dickallen15

04-22-2014, 10:25 AM

I guess you'd have to do an exhaustive study to prove or disprove that. What is without a doubt is that over time starting pitchers have logged fewer and fewer innings. It seems to me that so many talented pitchers in the last 20 or so years have flamed out prematurely. Every time a manager has one of his SP go more than 110 pitches in a game some want to fire them on the spot. You're a really good contributor here but I'm going to stick with my post, however lonely an opinion it may be.
"Back in the day" they didn't even post pitch counts on scoreboards, and they didn't make boxscores.

I agree, 110 seems to be where freak outs begin. Somewhere along the line it appears someone came up with the nice round number of 100 pitches as being the "safe" amount before something went south. I don't know who it was, but it is funny that it is exactly 100. People have been sold a bill of goods. If guys are trained properly, they can throw more pitches. Nolan Ryan supposedly threw over 200 many times and was hitting 140 into his 40's. Even went over 160 in his 40s.

Tanaka was throwing a lot of pitches and a lot of people were talking about "abuse". He seems to be doing fine. The studs pitch. If this injury turns into something major, it was bound to happen next week or next month, or next year, sometime......... even if Sale wasn't allowed to throw more than 100 pitches.

doublem23

04-22-2014, 10:29 AM

I like that, it's very interesting. Now back in the day pitchers threw hard breaking stuff but it does seem like there are more varieties of such pitches today compared to the 50's, 60's and 70's. This could very well be a contributing factor and being that I have one of those curious minds I'm going to look for this more in the future. You know watching pitcher's motions and noticing who is going on the DL and what does he throw.

I guess I should include the caveat that I'm born in the 80s so I'm kind of talking out of my ass in this arena, this is based solely on my observation of old baseball footage as seen in TV shows, documentaries, found online, etc. But it seems like back in the day, pitchers generally had a much more relaxed and natural delivery. You didn't have guys snapping their elbows like Kerry Wood or whatever. There wasn't a fascination with overpowering hitters, I get the idea that the general feeling was that pitchers weren't terrified of the HR so they were more willing to let guys slap the ball and let their defense work behind them, especially once you got away from the meat of the order.

Moses_Scurry

04-22-2014, 10:42 AM

I have two general theories on this...

1) General survivorship. You remember the old workhorses Roberts, Jenkins, etc. for the same reason why when you walk around an old neighborhood in an old city or town, you look at all the beautiful old graystones and think, "they just don't built buildings like this anymore." And yes, you'd be right, compared to a lot of the plaster and drywall crap that gets built now that's no way going to survive a century, but the thing is, you're only seeing the really well built, strong homes from 1900 now because all of the ****ty **** that was built then is all gone. It's not that they ONLY built amazing houses 100 years ago, it's just that only the amazing homes have weathered a century.

Likewise, 50 years from now, people will know the names like Sabathia, Verlander, Maddux, Pettite, Clemens, etc. as the great pitchers of this era who went out and did pitch hundreds of innings every year and they're simply not going to remember guys like Brandon Beachy or Mark Prior or the thousands of other pitchers whose careers were derailed by arm injuries. The standouts get remembered while those that fizzled out just get forgotten. I'm sure there were plenty of pitchers in the 40s and 50s and 60s who succumbed to injury as well, we just don't remember them today because they don't hold the same place in baseball lore.

2) The fundamental nature of the game has changed, mostly due to hitters becoming more powerful. Back in the day, you didn't need to have a devaststing slider or sinker or whatever to get by, the game was much more of a pitch to contact, play defense, and slap the ball around at the plate kind of a game. In 1959, the Indians lead the AL with 167 team HR. Even with HR and offense ticking down a bit since the peak of the Steroid Era insanity, 167 HR was the per team league average in 2013; 8 teams hit more than 167 HR last season. So pitchers can't get away with the kinds of mistakes they did back in the day, which means their pitches have to be sharper and crisper and have a nastier bite which undoubtedly raises the risks of injury.

I've also read, possibly even on this board, that in the old days pitchers were conditioned to be able to go more innings/pitches from the beginning of their careers, possibly even in high school. Now, pitchers are limited every step of the way, so they can't build up the ability to throw more pitches. I also have to think that the glorification of the strike-out has something to do with it. High K pitchers need to throw a lot more stressing pitches just to get through 6 innings than a Mark Buehrle.

dickallen15

04-22-2014, 10:46 AM

I've also read, possibly even on this board, that in the old days pitchers were conditioned to be able to go more innings/pitches from the beginning of their careers, possibly even in high school. Now, pitchers are limited every step of the way, so they can't build up the ability to throw more pitches. I also have to think that the glorification of the strike-out has something to do with it. High K pitchers need to throw a lot more stressing pitches just to get through 6 innings than a Mark Buehrle.
But they aren't limited every step of the way. They throw more pitches per outing in college and throw a ton in HS. Once they sign, they are cut back. What makes it even weirder, is back 20 years ago and further, if a pitcher hurt his arm and it required surgery, it was far more likely he was done, or nowhere near the same post-surgery as it is now. It's a CYA in play now for the babying of pitchers, and it seems even more wind up hurt.

SBSoxFan

04-22-2014, 11:10 AM

The only thing that terrifies me right now is that a flexor strain is the exact same original diagnosis that Gavin Floyd was given when he went on the DL last year before it was revealed he tore the muscle and UCL.

This is what makes me nervous as well - not regarding Floyd necessarily, but in general preliminary reports seem to be more innocuous. It isn't until later, when PT isn't working, that they realize something was "missed" on the original MRI. I mean, how come we never hear "Well, the preliminary report was that his arm fell off, but, after further testing, we realized it was a splinter."

I do recall that early in spring training 2005, there was concern Buehrle had a stress fracture in his foot, but it turned out only to be a stress reaction. And things went well that year. So, let's hope for a speedy recovery.

From a baseball perspective, it's a shame we don't get to watch Verlander/Sale tonight.

DSpivack

04-22-2014, 11:18 AM

I guess you'd have to do an exhaustive study to prove or disprove that. What is without a doubt is that over time starting pitchers have logged fewer and fewer innings. It seems to me that so many talented pitchers in the last 20 or so years have flamed out prematurely. Every time a manager has one of his SP go more than 110 pitches in a game some want to fire them on the spot. You're a really good contributor here but I'm going to stick with my post, however lonely an opinion it may be.
Yeah, I don't know if I've seen any studies along those lines, though I recall an article (FanGraphs?) a couple years ago looking at career length for pitchers.

sullythered

04-22-2014, 11:42 AM

This has happened twice before with Sale, and he came back both times and dominated immediately. Until further notice, there's nothing to be worried about. He has never missed significant time.

thomas35forever

04-22-2014, 11:47 AM

As long as we see him once the calendar flips to May, I won't be worried. He hasn't let DL trips stunt his growth as a pitcher before, so why start now?

The Immigrant

04-22-2014, 11:58 AM

He hasn't let DL trips stunt his growth as a pitcher before, so why start now?

This is the first DL trip in Chris Sale's career.

amsteel

04-22-2014, 11:59 AM

I'm guessing the truth is somewhere between 'slight discomfort and erring far on the side of caution' to 'we already know he's gonna be out 8-10 months but aren't telling anyone since we don't want people writing off the season already'

anewman35

04-22-2014, 12:13 PM

Will Carroll
http://bleacherreport.com/articles/2037473-chris-sale-hits-dl-with-arm-problems-sox-look-for-answers-on-aces-injury

But I don't understand! Everybody knows it's 100% because Robin pitched him 127 pitches, and this so-called "expert" says there is no evidence of that! How can the collective wisdom of this thread be wrong?

Noneck

04-22-2014, 12:36 PM

This has happened twice before with Sale, and he came back both times and dominated immediately. Until further notice, there's nothing to be worried about. He has never missed significant time.

As has been stated this previously never dl'd Sale.

Noneck

04-22-2014, 12:38 PM

Freak out much?

All the time.

kittle42

04-22-2014, 01:06 PM

Holy ****, man, chill out

I'm not angry.

kufram

04-22-2014, 01:24 PM

I guess I should include the caveat that I'm born in the 80s so I'm kind of talking out of my ass in this arena, this is based solely on my observation of old baseball footage as seen in TV shows, documentaries, found online, etc. But it seems like back in the day, pitchers generally had a much more relaxed and natural delivery. You didn't have guys snapping their elbows like Kerry Wood or whatever. There wasn't a fascination with overpowering hitters, I get the idea that the general feeling was that pitchers weren't terrified of the HR so they were more willing to let guys slap the ball and let their defense work behind them, especially once you got away from the meat of the order.

I was born in 1951 so there is a generational thing involved here. Bats were heavier back then and although the broken bat single was not rare the shattered bat didn't happen. That is a danger that I find hard to believe has not been addressed. Today's players have grown up in a much more risk averse society in many ways. Look at what is happening in football. That is not a criticism. It is better that people are safer.

I was far more safety conscious with my kids than my Mom ever felt the need to be with us. I played ice hockey with cardboard shoved up my trousers to my knees. I watched ice hockey played when the goalies didn't have masks on. I played goalie as a kid without a mask. Do you think I would have let one of my kids do that for one second? No. Those guys were tough and I don't think any of them made enough money to live the rest of their lives on. I also they didn't think much about their lives after sports.

So, if you tell pitchers and coaches that a they risk injury if they do this or don't do that, that information goes on board and becomes a policy. It is a microcosm of what is going on all around them in everyday life. Fear of bad things happening can stop a lot of good things from happening. I'm as guilty as anybody.

anewman35

04-22-2014, 01:36 PM

As has been stated this previously never dl'd Sale.

Just because he was never on the DL before doesn't mean that similar things haven't happened to Sale before. Hahn seemed pretty clear that he might have not needed to go on the DL, they're just being cautious.

Sale's 15-day DL stint is retroactive to Friday, the day after his last start. Eligible to come off next weekend.

XplodingScorbord

04-22-2014, 02:07 PM

NO!! Someone must be blamed!

Yep.

slavko

04-22-2014, 02:17 PM

I've heard it blamed on the slider being harder on the arm than the curve. Any truth to that, you experts?

shingo10

04-22-2014, 02:18 PM

Has anyone suggested yet that the K Zone has subconsciously affected Sale to only want to get strikeouts therefore leading to an increased amount of pitches and ultimately this injury?

Just checking.

It's hard not to expect the worst but there's nothing to do at this point except wait and try to muddle by every 5th day with our Charlotte boys.

kittle42

04-22-2014, 02:32 PM

Has anyone suggested yet that the K Zone has subconsciously affected Sale to only want to get strikeouts therefore leading to an increased amount of pitches and ultimately this injury?

Let's certainly hope no one has suggested that.

WhiteSox5187

04-22-2014, 02:52 PM

I guess I should include the caveat that I'm born in the 80s so I'm kind of talking out of my ass in this arena, this is based solely on my observation of old baseball footage as seen in TV shows, documentaries, found online, etc. But it seems like back in the day, pitchers generally had a much more relaxed and natural delivery. You didn't have guys snapping their elbows like Kerry Wood or whatever. There wasn't a fascination with overpowering hitters, I get the idea that the general feeling was that pitchers weren't terrified of the HR so they were more willing to let guys slap the ball and let their defense work behind them, especially once you got away from the meat of the order.

You didn't see the elbow snapping delivery that Kerry Wood had back then because even guys who threw hard had the drop and drive delivery, Seaver used to get dirt on on his pants because his knee would touch the ground. I don't know why guys stopped doing that but you seldom see that kind of delivery anymore.

Grantland had a piece about the increase in Tommy John surgeries this year and Dr. James Andrews said that a big part of it was the rise of year round baseball and kids throwing more breaking balls more often. And kids are only focusing on one sport earlier and earlier which means they are developing some muscles while neglecting others. High school kids aren't just throwing in season, they're on traveling teams, they're playing almost 12 months a year and by the time they even get to the big leagues their ligaments might be in tatters. A lot of times the damage is done well before a kid throws a pitch professionally.

kittle42

04-22-2014, 03:07 PM

Grantland had a piece about the increase in Tommy John surgeries this year and Dr. James Andrews said that a big part of it was the rise of year round baseball and kids throwing more breaking balls more often. And kids are only focusing on one sport earlier and earlier which means they are developing some muscles while neglecting others. High school kids aren't just throwing in season, they're on traveling teams, they're playing almost 12 months a year and by the time they even get to the big leagues their ligaments might be in tatters. A lot of times the damage is done well before a kid throws a pitch professionally.

Hawk, of all people, explained this issue really well about 4-5 years ago on a TV broadcast. I vividly remember it.

thomas35forever

04-22-2014, 03:16 PM

You didn't see the elbow snapping delivery that Kerry Wood had back then because even guys who threw hard had the drop and drive delivery, Seaver used to get dirt on on his pants because his knee would touch the ground. I don't know why guys stopped doing that but you seldom see that kind of delivery anymore.

Grantland had a piece about the increase in Tommy John surgeries this year and Dr. James Andrews said that a big part of it was the rise of year round baseball and kids throwing more breaking balls more often. And kids are only focusing on one sport earlier and earlier which means they are developing some muscles while neglecting others. High school kids aren't just throwing in season, they're on traveling teams, they're playing almost 12 months a year and by the time they even get to the big leagues their ligaments might be in tatters. A lot of times the damage is done well before a kid throws a pitch professionally.
Kind of makes you wonder if coaches and/or parents need to tell their kids they need to stay in shape throughout their body by playing multiple sports for as long as possible. I don't know if the number of three-sport athletes in high schools has decreased or not in recent years, but if those with the most potential to make it professionally are not among them, it might signify a bigger problem of the pressures at a young age. I know that pressure isn't likely to change, but it still could paint a picture of where we're at in youth sports today.

kobo

04-22-2014, 03:36 PM

As has been stated this previously never dl'd Sale.
So what? He's not out for the season and this has happened to him in the past around this same time of year. Would you rather have the Sox try what they did 2 years ago and move him to the bullpen, or would you rather he get a couple weeks rest and come back and pitch?

Noneck

04-22-2014, 04:15 PM

So what? He's not out for the season and this has happened to him in the past around this same time of year. Would you rather have the Sox try what they did 2 years ago and move him to the bullpen, or would you rather he get a couple weeks rest and come back and pitch?

Point was when this happened before it didnt require the dl, now it does. This is more than the day to day of previous times, we will see how this all plays out.

doublem23

04-22-2014, 04:35 PM

Can we all come to the middle ground and agree that while nobody here has either the inside knowledge of Chris Sale's body or medical expertise to pinpoint what exactly is wrong with him, it is still not a great idea to have your undisputed ace pitcher and most valuable on-field asset throw 130 pitches in a relatively pointless game on a cold night in April?

kittle42

04-22-2014, 04:44 PM

Can we all come to the middle ground and agree that while nobody here has either the inside knowledge of Chris Sale's body or medical expertise to pinpoint what exactly is wrong with him, it is still not a great idea to have your undisputed ace pitcher and most valuable on-field asset throw 130 pitches in a relatively pointless game on a cold night in April?

There is no room for logic and middle ground in our society these days! Attack! Defend! Attack! Defend!

TaylorStSox

04-22-2014, 04:56 PM

Can we all come to the middle ground and agree that while nobody here has either the inside knowledge of Chris Sale's body or medical expertise to pinpoint what exactly is wrong with him, it is still not a great idea to have your undisputed ace pitcher and most valuable on-field asset throw 130 pitches in a relatively pointless game on a cold night in April?
No.

amsteel

04-22-2014, 05:35 PM

Can we all come to the middle ground and agree that while nobody here has either the inside knowledge of Chris Sale's body or medical expertise to pinpoint what exactly is wrong with him, it is still not a great idea to have your undisputed ace pitcher and most valuable on-field asset throw 130 pitches in a relatively pointless game on a cold night in April?

At some point he's gonna have to throw alot of pitches on cold nights in October. If this team is gonna build around him, both the team and Chris himself need to know his limits.

If it were up to me I'd put him in bubble wrap and not let him out until 2015 at the earliest. The more he's out there, whether its April, July, or September this year it becomes more likely that he has a more serious arm injury (Hi, Jake Peavy!) or takes a 110 mph batted ball to the skull (Hi, Brandon McCarthy!) all in the name of the extreme unlikelyhood of them competing for a Wild Card. Put him at risk when it matters (ie: not this year).

I get it, all pitchers get injured the way all cars get scratched, but there's always the likelihood of a catastrophic injury/accident, the more you're out there the more probable it becomes.

Boondock Saint

04-22-2014, 05:36 PM

Can we all come to the middle ground and agree that while nobody here has either the inside knowledge of Chris Sale's body or medical expertise to pinpoint what exactly is wrong with him, it is still not a great idea to have your undisputed ace pitcher and most valuable on-field asset throw 130 pitches in a relatively pointless game on a cold night in April?

There is no room for logic and middle ground in our society these days! Attack! Defend! Attack! Defend!

No.

I love us.

dickallen15

04-22-2014, 07:55 PM

Can we all come to the middle ground and agree that while nobody here has either the inside knowledge of Chris Sale's body or medical expertise to pinpoint what exactly is wrong with him, it is still not a great idea to have your undisputed ace pitcher and most valuable on-field asset throw 130 pitches in a relatively pointless game on a cold night in April?

It wasn't cold. It was 60 degrees.

voodoochile

04-22-2014, 08:00 PM

I don't think modern pitchers are necessarily more fragile, but we do need a lot more of them and thus as a rule there are more guys whose bodies can't necessarily handle the strain, BUT...

I also think we are comparing all the pitchers who get hurt to guys like Nolan Ryan and Cy Young and all the other greats because we simply don't remember all the "meh" pitchers who donked their way out of the league in a season or two or blew out an arm trying to do what the strongest guys do.

It's as much about perception as it is anything else, IMO. We simply don't remember the names of guys who got injured and never pitched after their 4th season from 10-20 years ago let alone all through history so the people we are left comparing today's pitchers to are the strongest and best of the past. You think it's fair to compare Danny Wright to Verlander? That's what we do when we compare average pitchers of today to guys like Nolan Ryan who was a complete freak of nature.

lpneck

04-22-2014, 10:43 PM

Sale has the 2nd highest average number of pitches per start in all of MLB right now, behind C.J. Wilson.

Last year he had the 3rd highest average number of pitches per start in all of MLB behind Wilson and Verlander.

That seems to be a questionable strategy for a team that won 63 games last year to use on a pitcher they have invested $32 million dollars to have under their control through 2019, all while having injury concerns about him for at least 3 years now.

TaylorStSox

04-22-2014, 10:48 PM

I'm not going to pretend I know more about pitching than Don Cooper.

TDog

04-22-2014, 11:36 PM

At some point he's gonna have to throw alot of pitches on cold nights in October. If this team is gonna build around him, both the team and Chris himself need to know his limits.
...

I don't know if it's a matter of Sale needing to know his limits as much as the organization needing to know if he's a pitcher who can win big games as well as being able to put up impressive numbers. An April game against the Red Sox might not seem important, but considering how well Lester was pitching and the fact that no team in the AL Central has broken out as dominant yet, it gave Sale a chance to show he was a big-game pitcher, especially after a night where a utility infielder took the loss out of the bullpen. He didn't pitch out of the stretch much. The only hit he gave up was a home run. There were three walks and a hit batsman. If going that far against Lester is going to put him on the disabled list, obviously he is going to have to do better to be the big-game pitcher I've always believed he could be.

Lester outpitched him, not because Lester struck out more or allowed fewer baserunners, but because he pitched deeper into the game until his team gave him a chance to win, pitching against a team that so far this year has been stronger offensively than the one Sale faced. And Lester even survived to start tonight against the Yankees. Granted, the Yankees knocked him out in the fifth, but how he would have pitched tonight if he had come out after five to save his arm for the Yankees or even skipped his start against the White Sox is conjecture.

From what I've read, putting Sale on the disabled list is only a step or two more precautionary than it would have been to take Sale out an inning earlier in his last start. I hope that's the case, and the only reason I've seen to believe it's not would be reflexive pessimism. At least the team isn't telling Sale to be a man and suck it up, as Nardi Contreras apparently told Rocky Biddle. Maybe what comes of this is Sale learning his limitations, learning to put hitters away earlier in the count so he can blossom into a true big-game pitcher.

If he is throwing too many pitches, it isn't because Cooper and Ventura are going with him too long, but because he is using too many pitches to do what a major league team requires of an ace pitcher.

lpneck

04-23-2014, 07:20 AM

If he is throwing too many pitches, it isn't because Cooper and Ventura are going with him too long, but because he is using too many pitches to do what a major league team requires of an ace pitcher.

Which sounds great if it were true.

Last year Sale averaged 3.75 pitches per at-bat, which ranked him as #54 in MLB (and slightly more effective than Mark Buehrle, who averaged 3.77 and was ranked #51.)

He averaged 15.2 pitches per inning, which was #67 in MLB.

He is being left in games too long.

Look, I'm not saying that players can't be workhorses when needed. I thought it was absurd that the Nationals gave up a legit shot to win a World Series to shut Strasburg down two years ago.

But it's just as absurd to bring the most important future piece of your organization out to pitch the 8th inning when he is at 100+ pitches after 7 while you are one of the 3 worst teams in baseball, and that happened ALL THE TIME last year.

TDog

04-23-2014, 10:23 AM

Which sounds great if it were true.

Last year Sale averaged 3.75 pitches per at-bat, which ranked him as #54 in MLB (and slightly more effective than Mark Buehrle, who averaged 3.77 and was ranked #51.)

He averaged 15.2 pitches per inning, which was #67 in MLB.

He is being left in games too long.

Look, I'm not saying that players can't be workhorses when needed. I thought it was absurd that the Nationals gave up a legit shot to win a World Series to shut Strasburg down two years ago.

But it's just as absurd to bring the most important future piece of your organization out to pitch the 8th inning when he is at 100+ pitches after 7 while you are one of the 3 worst teams in baseball, and that happened ALL THE TIME last year.

Sale faced 26 batters in his last start and threw 127 pitches. That figures out to 4.88 pitches per hitter faced. It wasn't that he struggled. He was pitching a great game except for the fact that he threw more pitches than he has ever thrown before and he ended up more sore than ever before. The White Sox lost the game because he threw so many pitches that he had to be taken out of the game.

If Sale is going to be a big-game pitcher worth what the White Sox are investing in him, he is going to have to develop into a pitcher who goes deep into games.

MRI confirmed the inflammation/strain
Monday's examination, which included extensive testing of the arm by the doctor, Sale was told that it was "99.9 percent sure" that it was nothing to do with the UCL. If it was, he would have been jumping off the table during the tests.

Sale faced 26 batters in his last start and threw 127 pitches. That figures out to 4.88 pitches per hitter faced. It wasn't that he struggled. He was pitching a great game except for the fact that he threw more pitches than he has ever thrown before and he ended up more sore than ever before. The White Sox lost the game because he threw so many pitches that he had to be taken out of the game.

If Sale is going to be a big-game pitcher worth what the White Sox are investing in him, he is going to have to develop into a pitcher who goes deep into games.

LOL, he threw the 5th most innings in the AL last season, lead the league in complete games and is by any metric one of the 2-3 best pitchers in the American League, but yeah, he's got to get better.

TDog

04-23-2014, 12:28 PM

LOL, he threw the 5th most innings in the AL last season, lead the league in complete games and is by any metric one of the 2-3 best pitchers in the American League, but yeah, he's got to get better.

Obviously, Sale wasn't the best pitcher in his last start because he was the pitcher who didn't stay around to hive his team a chance to win.

My argument isn't that Sale isn't a good pitcher. My argument is that leaving him in to throw 127 pitches isn't a crime against nature.

I have no problem with the amount of work Sale got last year, as some seem to. Throwing 127 pitches last week shouldn't have put him on the disabled list, although in this case it seems to be to give him a rest instead of healing damage. Throwing 127 pitches in a pitchers'' duel is something you should expect your big-game pitcher to do. Last night Verlander stayed in the game against the Sox to throw 119 pitches when he had a six-run lead. And he wasn't pitching nearly as well as Sale was pitching last week.

If Sale's innings are going to be limited this year because he is throwing so many pitches, he will need to work to get hitters out earlier in the count.

Point was when this happened before it didnt require the dl, now it does. This is more than the day to day of previous times, we will see how this all plays out.
Seems like the point is that people are just going to start saying "I told you so" or "The Sox never should have signed him to that contract" which is just complete bull****.

kittle42

04-23-2014, 01:32 PM

Obviously, Sale wasn't the best pitcher in his last start because he was the pitcher who didn't stay around to hive his team a chance to win.

Hawk???

kittle42

04-23-2014, 01:33 PM

Seems like the point is that people are just going to start saying "I told you so" or "The Sox never should have signed him to that contract" which is just complete bull****.

Well, if someone hypothetically said that, that someone would sound ignorant.

SBSoxFan

04-23-2014, 01:44 PM

More (http://www.sportsonearth.com/article/73018432/white-sox-chris-sale-elbow-injury-is-minor-but-still-worrisome) on Sale. The article really doesn't have much depth; it's more about how slim the Sox are in pitching with Sale being out. However, it is interesting to note the guys who were originally diagnosed with flexor strains only to end up having TJ surgery.

sullythered

04-23-2014, 02:03 PM

Well, if someone hypothetically said that, that someone would sound ignorant.

Especially considering that the contract he signed is EXTREMELY team-friendly, even if he were to have a longer term injury.

Noneck

04-23-2014, 03:21 PM

Seems like the point is that people are just going to start saying "I told you so" or "The Sox never should have signed him to that contract" which is just complete bull****.