RoyBatty:Bathia_Mapes: What part of In loco parentis don't these idiots understand?

Just the loco part.

(I fell off the monkey bars and broke my arm too...)

Yep. I, too, broke my arm falling off the monkey bars, except the monkey bars were part of the Big Toy (one of those massive playground structure doohickeys). Fortunately for me, my school had ice packs and my dad is an orthopedist. But they didn't call 911 or a hospital either. Unless the bone is through the skin or there are signs of concussion, calling the parents first is normal.... or was in the 80s.

On the other hand, I broke my thumb in first grade, because they were trying to teach us to set a volleyball.... with the choice of either full regulation-weight ones or foam ones that were falling apart so badly you had to close your eyes so foam bits didn't fall in. Regulation weight ones are plenty heavy enough to bend a 7-year-old girl's thumb back if her hands are too far apart when setting, as it turns out. The damn nurse didn't even realize I'd broken it, and didn't even call my parents.... again, fortunately, my dad is an orthopedist. (Breaking your thumb turns out to entail an actual cast, not just a finger splint, btw. Don't ever do it. Especially your writing hand. >.<)

You sound insured and well employed. This is the first time I've heard of ambulances being free. Maybe, instead of wasting their money on "click-it-or-ticket" bullshiat that's already built into all cars by law they could go ahead and advertise "Cost of 911 call: $0 Cost of ambulance: $0 Being alive: Priceless"

fusillade762:sendtodave: Were they stupidly negligent, on afraid of getting sued?

Because they're going to get sued.

And taxpayers will pay for it.

You know, I figured out that is a lot of what taxes are for. Stupidity insurance.

It's a charter school. Not sure taxpayers will be on the hook for this.

GOP-controlled Michigan. The girl whose Ivy League education is about to get paid in full is black.

If there isn't already a law on the books in Michigan that says that private schools can get their lawsuit settlements paid for by the taxpayers instead of the school itself in situations like this, then expect such a law to pass by the end of the Session (if not the end of this week).

Also expect said law to be carefully written so as to only apply to this particular case, and possibly have a Tort Reform™-style cap designed to limit her maximum potential settlement payout from "full scholarship at Harvard Law School, including room & board and Spring Break in Aruba" down to "10% off one semester's tuition at Hollywood Upstairs Medical College."

Finally, expect these provisions to also be carefully written so as not to run afoul of the whole "No Bills Of Attainder" bit in the US Constitution... or at least make it financially unfeasible for the girl or her parents to challenge that law.

/and if all else fails -- if they can't stop them from getting a respectable settlement through hook and crook -- then expect the Governor to send State Troopers to her house so they can "find" some crack, and use the existence of the totally-not-planted drugs to legally seize all their assets, worldly possessions, every last penny they got from the lawsuit, and also to pin down any pets they have and blow the pets' brains out with a shotgun at point-blank range//did I mention that I'm a cynic?

Well in that case, the lawsuit will most likely be paid for in full by taxpayers regardless of whether or not those turd burglars in Lansing pass the hypothetical "private schools don't have to worry about losing one penny to darkies" law I described above.

/still, I fully expect them to pass a law designed to reduce the new home they'll be able to buy from "chateau with a foyer big enough to hold a rugby scrum" to "3 bed, 2 bath, 2 car garage, oh by the way its copper wiring and AC ducts have been stripped out completely and it's in Detroit"

Compound fracture, sure that's a 911 call. But a regular broken arm? From personal experience both times I broke an arm in the public school system (middle school) it was to nurse's office for an ice pack (one of those gel ones wrapped in paper towels) and a call to my parents to come pick me up since it wasn't imminently life threatening. Certainly the orthopedist's office was far faster (l waiting around in pain) and more cost effective than an ambulance ride to sit in an ER waiting for any real emergencies to go first. And no, this wasn't onion-belt days, it was the early 90's. Unless those are the onion-belt days now.

But the school in TFA should have at least had a damn ice pack somewhere. What kind of crap school doesn't have a simple ice pack? Kids get hurt, basic first aid supplies should be a thing to have on hand.

Gyrfalcon:The 911 call is free, dumbass. The paramedics respond because that's what your tax money pays for. You know, the guys sitting down at the fire house waiting for someone to call 911? You don't pay for that. (Well, not extra)

Eh, not everywhere. Were I am air and ground ambulance service is a separate entity that's not part of police or fire or any hospital, and they don't receive any tax subsidies.

You sound insured and well employed. This is the first time I've heard of ambulances being free. Maybe, instead of wasting their money on "click-it-or-ticket" bullshiat that's already built into all cars by law they could go ahead and advertise "Cost of 911 call: $0 Cost of ambulance: $0 Being alive: Priceless"

I had a cataplexy attack (collapsed, couldn't move for awhile) in public and someone called an ambulance, and I didn't have to pay anything. I believe you're missing that if they don't transport you, there isn't a fee. So they can come see if you need to see a doctor immediately.

My CSBs:

I had a fever of 103 in gym once and tried to tell my teacher I was sick. He dismissed it, think he even called me honey. Guy was kind of a dick. I also farked up my knee in dodgeball. Knocked my legs out from under my and I landed on my kneecaps. One is still numb (the skin all over the knee) and I can't kneel with pressure on them because its extremely painful. I have to have all my weight on my shins or ankles. Waited forever to see a doctor for it, and the doctor did nothing (he was a shiatty doctor).

On the plus side, this thread reminded me of a few times when I had to go rest on a couch in the home ec room in high school that I'd forgotten and I think those might've been cataplexy attacks. I'd had trouble just collapsing in the hall a few times too, but I wasn't diagnosed with narcolepsy for years so I never thought about it.

Glendale:Compound fracture, sure that's a 911 call. But a regular broken arm? From personal experience both times I broke an arm in the public school system (middle school) it was to nurse's office for an ice pack (one of those gel ones wrapped in paper towels) and a call to my parents to come pick me up since it wasn't imminently life threatening. Certainly the orthopedist's office was far faster (l waiting around in pain) and more cost effective than an ambulance ride to sit in an ER waiting for any real emergencies to go first. And no, this wasn't onion-belt days, it was the early 90's. Unless those are the onion-belt days now.

But the school in TFA should have at least had a damn ice pack somewhere. What kind of crap school doesn't have a simple ice pack? Kids get hurt, basic first aid supplies should be a thing to have on hand.

/CSB?

I dunno, I mentioned in my post that my experiences happened in the '90s and the only direct response I got was "We've come a long way since the 1800s." So yeah, I guess twenty years ago now counts as long ago in the dim ages, when bear and bison swarmed the forest and the prairie.

(1) Most hospitals will not treat a minor without parental consent for something less than a life threatening injury.

(2) Many ambulance and rescue services have started billing the callers/patients again for services rendered -- which can be quite pricey.

(3) Having the child taken to the hospital without notifying the parent first opens the school up for several lawsuits, which, even if they 'win' they have to pay out half the national debt in legal costs.

(4) The school probably did not have a legal release paper for the girl, signed and notarized, giving them permission to release her to emergency services in the event of an incident.

(5) Budget cuts have nearly wiped out the old 'School Nurse' who used to be on duty and on campus for just such incidents and the 'School Nurse' would have to carry liability insurance, paid for by the school. Parents will sue if you put a band aid on a cut without their permission.

(6) Since the incident happened on school grounds, the administration was probably trying to contact their lawyers to find out how much it was going to cost them and what they could or could not do.

(7) Budget cuts probably eliminated having an ice machine which runs 24/7, requiring the school to buy bagged ice or make their own in trays.(7-A) Ice machines can become contaminated by frequent use, which might make a student ill, which can result in a lawsuit for medical expenses, pain and suffering and neglect.

(8) Chances are the school did not have a physical education program, where the coach would have had an ice machine for use in treating soft tissue injuries obtained by athletes. They probably did not have the program because the parents listened to their winy kids about how exercising is too hard and they're exposed to the cancerous sun and if they loose, their feelings get hurt, which can scar them for life.

Cardiac arrests and car fires. I hope I go the next 13 years without making another one. No chance of that though

My first car fire as an EMT was in 2005, about two months after I graduated EMT-IV. We pulled up before the engine company, and the car was already fully involved after striking a transformer. The guy was still alive inside, screaming and flailing.

By the time the engine company got there and put hoses on it, he had stopped screaming. We watched him burn alive, because there was no way to get him out.

You sound insured and well employed. This is the first time I've heard of ambulances being free. Maybe, instead of wasting their money on "click-it-or-ticket" bullshiat that's already built into all cars by law they could go ahead and advertise "Cost of 911 call: $0 Cost of ambulance: $0 Being alive: Priceless"

I had a cataplexy attack (collapsed, couldn't move for awhile) in public and someone called an ambulance, and I didn't have to pay anything. I believe you're missing that if they don't transport you, there isn't a fee. So they can come see if you need to see a doctor immediately.

My CSBs:

I had a fever of 103 in gym once and tried to tell my teacher I was sick. He dismissed it, think he even called me honey. Guy was kind of a dick. I also farked up my knee in dodgeball. Knocked my legs out from under my and I landed on my kneecaps. One is still numb (the skin all over the knee) and I can't kneel with pressure on them because its extremely painful. I have to have all my weight on my shins or ankles. Waited forever to see a doctor for it, and the doctor did nothing (he was a shiatty doctor).

On the plus side, this thread reminded me of a few times when I had to go rest on a couch in the home ec room in high school that I'd forgotten and I think those might've been cataplexy attacks. I'd had trouble just collapsing in the hall a few times too, but I wasn't diagnosed with narcolepsy for years so I never thought about it.

Dodgeball gave me a concussion -- I went home with a headache to sleep it off -- school called my mom later to say to go to the ER and not to let me sleep.

shiat, I realize now elementary school almost killed me a couple of times.

doloresonthedottedline:I had a fever of 103 in gym once and tried to tell my teacher I was sick. He dismissed it, think he even called me honey.

He was a gym teacher. They're supposed to be dismissive of physical ailments. Most people are impressed when they are able to refrain from kidnapping the fat kids and forcing them to become athletes in a boot-camp style setting with planned meals and daily calisthenics.

I can see not calling 911 for a broken arm. If it was a compound - obvious break then 911 should have been called. If no contact with parent or emergency contact then 911 should have been called and school acted according to parentis locos.

I am more bothered that the skill doesn't have basic first aid necessities. In a school ice packs should be part of their first aid kits because kids fall all the time. At my daughter's middle school they had real ice packs and they had paper towels frozen in zip lock bags. If you got a real ice pack you most likely were going home.

Heck, I even think the first aid kit at my work has instant cold packs for injuries.

You sound insured and well employed. This is the first time I've heard of ambulances being free. Maybe, instead of wasting their money on "click-it-or-ticket" bullshiat that's already built into all cars by law they could go ahead and advertise "Cost of 911 call: $0 Cost of ambulance: $0 Being alive: Priceless"

I had a cataplexy attack (collapsed, couldn't move for awhile) in public and someone called an ambulance, and I didn't have to pay anything. I believe you're missing that if they don't transport you, there isn't a fee. So they can come see if you need to see a doctor immediately.

My CSBs:

I had a fever of 103 in gym once and tried to tell my teacher I was sick. He dismissed it, think he even called me honey. Guy was kind of a dick. I also farked up my knee in dodgeball. Knocked my legs out from under my and I landed on my kneecaps. One is still numb (the skin all over the knee) and I can't kneel with pressure on them because its extremely painful. I have to have all my weight on my shins or ankles. Waited forever to see a doctor for it, and the doctor did nothing (he was a shiatty doctor).

On the plus side, this thread reminded me of a few times when I had to go rest on a couch in the home ec room in high school that I'd forgotten and I think those might've been cataplexy attacks. I'd had trouble just collapsing in the hall a few times too, but I wasn't diagnosed with narcolepsy for years so I never thought about it.

Finally, someone gets it. Jesus H Christ on a pogo stick.

In a city, where this child was, the fire response is free. The transport is what is optional and what costs money. No drivee to hospital, no payee the money. And as I've been saying apparently to myself since people keep arguing that calling 911 costs money IF THE MEDICS DETERMINE CHILD MUST GO, SHE GOES. Parents have the option of not paying the ambulance later, saying they would not have agreed, and will probably win in court. You think this doesn't happen in other cases where kids' parents are unavailable and medics have to make a snap decision to transport injured kids?

Considering all the b/s calls medics DO roll on, if it did cost money just to respond paramedics to your bruised ego or annoyed poodle, cities would be rolling in cash. Since they are not, you can safely assume that merely calling 911 for a medical response does not cost money in any town of any size. There is nothing to indicate this child lived in backcountry Alaska or the depths of Wyoming where a medical response might have been more expensive.

My son jumped off a slide at daycare and got a greenstick fracture in his forearm. He sat in the office for an hour after they called me. I drove over to daycare, picked him up, and took him to the ER. A greenstick fracture in a little kid isn't a life-threatening injury.

Everyone thinks it costs money. Not everyone can afford to fight bills in court.

It's nice to learn this information, but it's not relevant to the situation in the article because a bunch of elementary school teachers at a school so small they don't have an ice machine probably are not well versed in the ins and outs of medical billing.

hardinparamedic:Suckmaster Burstingfoam: But yeah, I don't see why anything below a displaced fracture merits a 911 call. It seems more sensible to call the parents to drive the kid to the hospital, or drive them yourself.

911 for this seems a waste of the paramedics' valuable time.

It's not a waste of their "valuable time". It's their job.

Fractures, at the very least, are incredibly painful. Paramedics can provide immediate pain control appropriate for the level of pain that patient is experiencing. They can also perform proper splinting and re-alignment of the extremity, both preventing further injury to the extremity, as well as decreasing the on-going damage from an unstable fracture. In addition, it's far more comfortable and safer for that person.

A fractured humerus or tib-fib can cause a loss of around 1/12 the volume of the blood in the body. A Femur can cause 1/6th that volume to bleed out into the fracture site.

Paramedics can identify neurovascular compromise and injury, and either intervene to attempt to restore critical perfusion flow, or rapidly transport a person quicker and safer than someone in a private vehicle can to definitive, proper care.

It's not as simple as "oh, you broke a bone".

Peter von Nostrand: That was the old days before private ambulance companies realized they could make money off non emergency transports

Suddenly EMS became part of comprehensive community health care

You think ambulance companies make money off any 911 calls? That's cute.

The real money is in IFT transports. 911 is a general money loss, period.

And EMS has always been a part of comprehensive community healthcare. The only people who don't want to make it that way are certain industry unions who lobby for decreased professional standards and making an EMS License an add-on certificate to Firefighter I.

Community Paramedicine is a real thing. And if the Field EMS bill passes the house and gets to the Senate, it'll be a nationwide thing, rather than a regional experime ...

I'm an EMT in CA, and I never heard the term, "Community Paramedicine" before. After reading a couple of the links, I'm still unsure what it really means. What's your understanding? EIP.

cardex:On the scale of when to call 911 with 1 being you should go to jail for a very long time for calling including things like McDonald did not give me one of the apple pies I ordered or the guy at the cell phone place told me to make a test call and 911 was the only number I can think of. And 10 being you should go to jail for a long time for not calling including things like being in your 40s 9 months pregnant with a downs baby traveling halfway across the county when you water breaks but you decide to fly to Alaska from Texas then drive for hours to a small town doctor or your frat buddy had 3 5ths of vodka then stopped breathing. Calling 911 over a grade school kids broken arm with no signs of shock and no bones outside the body is about a 3 the only problem I see is letting a perfictly good ice cream sandwich get used like that

This happened to me as a kid. I broke the bones and smashed the growth plate in both wrists. Asshole nurse and school admins wouldnt call ambulance. Parents were working. I suffered for 6 hours waiting to get help.

School can only call the police on your kid - and they probably have a couple in the building anyway to cart them off to juvie. Despite a million and one medical emergency forms filled out in quadruplicate, they ware unable to call 911 to take your kid to a hospital.

Sliding Carp:Lady Indica: I can't believe some people in this thread are that stupid too. Of course you farking call 911.

Who pays the $1000 for the ambulance ride, and the $300 just to walk in the door of the ER?

/number out of my butt, but not insanely wrong.

You're actually pretty accurate about the ambulance bill.

I had a heart scare two years ago, and the university infirmary called for an ambulance to take me less than two miles to the emergency room. It was a five-minute ride in a trainee unit, and for that I was charged $1500.

/ER diagnosed me as "prone to anxiety attacks"//Gave me antianxiety meds which I will need to have on hand the rest of my life///Grateful for the ambulance, but waaay to expensive////Thanks, Acadian Ambulance of Lafayette, Louisiana

maram500:Sliding Carp: Lady Indica: I can't believe some people in this thread are that stupid too. Of course you farking call 911.

Who pays the $1000 for the ambulance ride, and the $300 just to walk in the door of the ER?

/number out of my butt, but not insanely wrong.

You're actually pretty accurate about the ambulance bill.

I had a heart scare two years ago, and the university infirmary called for an ambulance to take me less than two miles to the emergency room. It was a five-minute ride in a trainee unit, and for that I was charged $1500.

/ER diagnosed me as "prone to anxiety attacks"//Gave me antianxiety meds which I will need to have on hand the rest of my life///Grateful for the ambulance, but waaay to expensive////Thanks, Acadian Ambulance of Lafayette, Louisiana

Should have signed up for them when the enrollment period was open. Free market ambulances (well.. local monopoly), aren't they great!

Just down the road to the east of you, had the parish ambulance service drive my wife to the hospital once (really, really bad food poisoning. She was out of her mind, demanding an ambulance). Bill: $0. ER was a different matter.

Should have signed up for them when the enrollment period was open. Free market ambulances (well.. local monopoly), aren't they great!

Just down the road to the east of you, had the parish ambulance service drive my wife to the hospital once (really, really bad food poisoning. She was out of her mind, demanding an ambulance). Bill: $0. ER was a different matter.

St Mary? Or Terrebonne? I wasn't even aware any parish had its own ambulance service. I've lived in Louisiana my whole life and just assumed Acadian was a governent-allowed monopoly.

Having broken my arm at a private school in '92 for which my parents paid a lot of money, they did the same farking thing. Broke my arm, ushered me into one of the small side rooms and laid me down. I was going into shock. Who did they call? My father who has half in his death bed with severe bronchitis. I didn't even get any farking ice cream sammiches.

It's true. There are people running schools now who have no experience or knowledge on how to do certain things, and this is a prime example. These people are being hired by people who also have no idea what the fark they're doing. It's like a lib arts major weaseled his way into an IT organization and started hiring more lib arts-tards to do the job of the company.

Should have signed up for them when the enrollment period was open. Free market ambulances (well.. local monopoly), aren't they great!

Just down the road to the east of you, had the parish ambulance service drive my wife to the hospital once (really, really bad food poisoning. She was out of her mind, demanding an ambulance). Bill: $0. ER was a different matter.

St Mary? Or Terrebonne? I wasn't even aware any parish had its own ambulance service. I've lived in Louisiana my whole life and just assumed Acadian was a governent-allowed monopoly.

EBR. Orleans Parish has it own EMS as well. AA has some fine techs working for them I'm sure, but their business model sucks for EMS type service IMO. Its fine for patient transport.

Should have signed up for them when the enrollment period was open. Free market ambulances (well.. local monopoly), aren't they great!

Just down the road to the east of you, had the parish ambulance service drive my wife to the hospital once (really, really bad food poisoning. She was out of her mind, demanding an ambulance). Bill: $0. ER was a different matter.

St Mary? Or Terrebonne? I wasn't even aware any parish had its own ambulance service. I've lived in Louisiana my whole life and just assumed Acadian was a governent-allowed monopoly.

I'll be in Terrebone parish, like every year, mowing down Mama's jambalaya and dirty rice and uncle Boo's gumbo at Christmas.

My question is how are you guys on the inter webs? In my experience without my wifi hot spot it doesn't exist there.

Gyrfalcon:The 911 call is free, dumbass. The paramedics respond because that's what your tax money pays for. You know, the guys sitting down at the fire house waiting for someone to call 911? You don't pay for that. (Well, not extra)

That hasn't been true in a long time. There are an increasing number of cities that bill for each fire, medics, or police response.

fnordfocus:Gyrfalcon: The 911 call is free, dumbass. The paramedics respond because that's what your tax money pays for. You know, the guys sitting down at the fire house waiting for someone to call 911? You don't pay for that. (Well, not extra)

That hasn't been true in a long time. There are an increasing number of cities that bill for each fire, medics, or police response.

In California, Vallejo and Tracy are preparing to charge 911 callers, which is a good way to discourage good Samaritans.

Yeah, I've been billed for 911 calls for pretty serious emergencies that were no one's fault.

Six months after a heart surgery I experienced a wildly racing heart and thought should I drive 3 miles to the ER or call 911. I called 911 and an Fire Department ambulance arrived within minutes. I was billed north of $500 for the ride, which definitely makes me want to rethink that decision: drive 3 miles or call 911.

Just for anyone who really thinks like the guy that prompted hardinparamedic's reply:

An ambulance that is sitting still is losing money and trucks dedicated to 911 response are often sitting still. In those parts of the country where 911 trucks are running all the time (large metro areas), many of the calls are medicare or total non-pay meaning once again the truck is losing money.

If your 911 service comes from a private provider, he's subsidizing that service off non-emergency pickups and interfacility transports

mikeray:LavenderWolf: ArkAngel: You don't need to call 911 for a broken arm and the school could be held liable for bringing the child to the hospital if anything happens

Actually, you really should, unless it has already been enough time that you know no further injury has occurred.

Take it from me, I have led a very stupid, unlucky life. Broken bones need attention immediately. Farking IMMEDIATELY. What you think is a simple fracture could end your life within a few hours.

She fell off the monkey bars no out of a plane.

Do you have reading comprehension problems? Long story short, yes, you can die from a broken arm. Faster than you'd think, too. That's why emergency rooms have triage nurses, to recognize when a minor injury is not a minor injury.

If this had been me, I would've put on my big girl panties and dealt with it. No way my parents would have wanted an ambulance called. They couldn't afford it and had no insurance.

On the other hand, I did learn the difference between life-threatening and non-. When I was sick, I didn't end up at the doctor unless my parents thought there was something the doctor could actually do about it. Viruses, for instance, were allowed to run their course.

I think I would have been more traumatized by the ambulance than the injury. If you make a huge deal out of something, kids are bound to think it's worse than it really is. This could even create a phobia of playground equipment.

Being told to suck it up is hard, but it's good that kids learn the relative threat level of various things. Pain sucks but it mostly won't kill you.

In the meantime, "Call a cab" is perhaps the most obnoxiously middle-class thing you could say in a situation like this. A cabbie isn't trained in stabilizing a wound, a cab isn't built to handle shock and heavy divots in the road while transferring minimal energy to the rear compartment, and perhaps most importantly, a cabbie wastes your time by fiddling with billing and the like the moment you get to your destination, costing you time between getting the kid into the hospital and treated for something that could very quickly go from bad to worse.

Are ambulances free? No. They will bill you. If you have insurance, you'll get a reduced bill. If not, well, medical bills can be taken care of over time. A couple hundred in long-term low interest bills is a lot better than your child being permanently stunted for life because you decided to see if you could squeeze oil out of a penny.

In the case of serious injury(Which a bone break applies as), 911 needs to be called no matter what. The possibility that it can go from seriously bad to a hell of a lot worse in the case of a bone break is astronomically high, and a school nurse is not trained to handle that. Hell, these days they can barely be expected to be able to handle stabilizing the injury.

Also, Pineapple, I'm curious. How exactly would you consider an ambulance ride(With an O2 feed which will CALM the child) MORE traumatizing than "Hey, my arm hurts now more than anything in my life ever has and is suddenly the wrong shape"?