Posted - 2011.05.31 19:26:00 -
[1]
So it's time to say goodbye to my bulky but reliable Drake and start doing lvl 4 missions. I've read a lot on the forums but I haven't seen a real comparison between the Raven/CNR and the Tengu for lvl 4 PVE. I understand that the Raven have an insane amount of DPS. I've also see many saying the Tengu is the fastest and the most reliable way to do LVL 4 missions.

I would really like any useful hint you could give me to make the best choice.

Posted - 2011.05.31 20:03:00 -
[2]
The Tengu is to play easy-mode (skill and gameplay wise): just orbit and spam missiles.

The CNR requires more skills and tactics to shine, but is much more efficient simply because of its drones: you don't waste time shooting frigates, and when they're gone you can get the benefit of 3 sentries ;)

Originally by:SeitrimSo it's time to say goodbye to my bulky but reliable Drake and start doing lvl 4 missions. I've read a lot on the forums but I haven't seen a real comparison between the Raven/CNR and the Tengu for lvl 4 PVE. I understand that the Raven have an insane amount of DPS. I've also see many saying the Tengu is the fastest and the most reliable way to do LVL 4 missions.

I would really like any useful hint you could give me to make the best choice.

Thanks for the help everyone

N.B. Skilling and cost are not a concern.

The main advantage of the Raven and CNR is that they are a lot cheaper than a Tengu and training is at least a month shorter.

Tengus are popular because of subsystems. With L5 subsystem skills the Tengu will be a lot better than a Raven and even CNR. Tengus aren't slow like the Raven also, making it easy to adjust you're range (if you even need to).

I prefer Tengu. It's just hassle free. No slow-boating, and it runs missions a lot faster. And with a quick subsystem and module swap I can use it for incursions.

The only significant downside I see is the cost. While you don't need to pimp it out (and doing so is just asking to get ganked) it is still not cheap. You could probably but a standard T1 raven and give it a standard T2 fit and it will still be less money than a Tengu without subsystems.

Originally by:Zoe ArdentThe Tengu is to play easy-mode (skill and gameplay wise): just orbit and spam missiles.

The CNR requires more skills and tactics to shine, but is much more efficient simply because of its drones: you don't waste time shooting frigates, and when they're gone you can get the benefit of 3 sentries ;)

Posted - 2011.05.31 20:28:00 -
[5]
IMO, there's no reason not to go for both. Seeing as how you're in a Drake, I'd say you're most of the way to a HML Tengu with Offensive/Defensive Subsystems at 5 (~12 days?). If you have HAM Spec 4, go ahead and pick up a HAM Tengu for missions that you can use HAMs for. From there, perfect your missile+drone supports and get Caldari BS5. Pick up a CNR and use it for missions that don't require moving around. Then pick up a Golem and make sure you get salvaging 5 etc.

Final result is that you'll use the HML Tengu for some missions, Cruise CNR for some, and the Golem for some. This was how my Caldari alt was last configured before I sold all my mission ships.

Posted - 2011.05.31 20:29:00 -
[6]
If you are blitzing missions for LP a tengu is a good choice; it's a slightly faster, significantly more agile ship. This adds up over time when you're going for the LP. Tengu DPS is great only with kinetic missiles, and thus the DPS is frequently overstated. It will kill smaller ships faster, larger ships slower than a CNR.

For any other case I think the cruise CNR is the better ship. I blitz the missions that are incredibly easy to blitz, I full clear and loot/salvage the rest.

If you're going to be new to level 4s, it makes a lot more sense to just clear them steadily. Start with an overtanked CNR and then swap out to more gank once you know you way around most level 4s.

Originally by:Capitalist DeSandreIf you're going to be new to level 4s, it makes a lot more sense to just clear them steadily. Start with an overtanked CNR and then swap out to more gank once you know you way around most level 4s.

IMO, the Tengu does better with overtanking than the CNR. It really does require a pretty specialized fit to make the CNR better than the Tengu. It's probably why so many people incorrectly believe the Tengu is better.

Posted - 2011.05.31 20:33:00 -
[8]
Let me simplify my reply: For someone brand new to level 4s, I think you're best off in a CNR. It can do well in ANY mission, any range and any target. Good ship to get familiar with L4s in.

Originally by:Hermann FegeleinThe main advantage of the Raven and CNR is that they are a lot cheaper than a Tengu and training is at least a month shorter.

A CNR isn't cheaper than a Tengu. Your small deadspace shield booster (Tengu) may be expensive but large rigs (CNR) aren't cheap either.

Cruiser V takes some time though, admitted. You can fly a CNR with battleship IV, t2 modules and t1 launchers quite effectively, which indeed takes less time. On the other hand you don't need any drone skills for a Tengu. With a Tengu you'd want T2 launchers as T2 missiles kill battleships a lot quicker.

Personally I like the Tengu more as I really hate slow ships.

Originally by:Capitalist DeSandreLet me simplify my reply: For someone brand new to level 4s, I think you're best off in a CNR. It can do well in ANY mission, any range and any target. Good ship to get familiar with L4s in.

Don't know if that's true. Before doing L4s I really skilled up my Tengu skills to V, got a good fitting and it's been a breeze ever since - I remember it was quite an anticlimax.

But then again I'm always careful, I never lost a ship bigger than a destroyer in a mission.

Originally by:Capitalist DeSandreLet me simplify my reply: For someone brand new to level 4s, I think you're best off in a CNR. It can do well in ANY mission, any range and any target. Good ship to get familiar with L4s in.

I'd have to go with the Tengu being superior personally.

The ability to tank so well for such a small amount of isk in modules just makes it a whole lot less riskier for a new player.

The only problem with that is that you do need to have good missile skills to kill those tackle frigates quickly. Once you're there nothing is really a challenge.

Yes, the CNR is great for putting out DPS in some missions and clearing them faster than the Tengu, but the Tengu saves a lot of time in any mission where you need to travel to gates or to pick up required loot. So in terms of finishing a mission quicker they both have their advantages. I'd side with the one that's safer then, as a new player.

Originally by:Tenzeckbut the Tengu saves a lot of time in any mission where you need to travel to gates

Missions where this makes a difference are really rare. Most missions drop you out on the gate, or you have to travel some trivial distance (<10km). There's only 2-3 where it might make a difference (Recon 2/3 and another one that makes you travel ~50-60km). Really, your major savings are going to come from align time to/from the mission (and that's not a whole hell of a lot).

Originally by:Liang NurenEdited by: Liang Nuren on 31/05/2011 21:25:43[Missions where this makes a difference are really rare.

I disagree. I get plenty of them. It most likely depends on where you mission as I tend to get a small group of the same missions over and over and many of them include distant gates like The Score, Smuggler Interception, and Worlds Collide. There are also several missions where controlling range saves a lot of time if you can kill quickly enough, too. I am thinking of missions where you need to kill a specific ship/transport and loot an item or similar ideas. It's better for blitzing, in other words.

Quote:Non issue because of tractor beams.

A new player in a CNR sticks within 20km of his targets? Most often they don't have the tank to sit up close and so use that missile range. Much less of an issue with the Tengu's better tank and superior ability to close.

I suppose arguing about it is pointless. The TL;DR version of it all is: The mobility of a Tengu, and the additional tank it adds, is a very useful and versitile thing. Sure, that it's the better overall choice if you can only fly one is an opinion not everyone is going to share, but it's difficult to really argue that those advantages aren't big ones.

Posted - 2011.06.01 01:56:00 -
[13]Edited by: Captain Nares on 01/06/2011 01:59:19Tengu and any BS are very different. They are more different than a bird and a snake. Coz of this and coz I don't want to repeat 4000 time same things I won't compare them, sorry.

I'd choose Tengu, coz it is multipurpose ship and overpowered ship. It does lots of things better than "specialized" vessels You may do PvP, any kind of PvE including WHs and solo 10/10, travel in lowsec and nullsec safely on it.

And what is CNR? Obsolete hisec carebear ship, waste of SP You won't need those cruise missile and caldari BS skills anywhere else (yes, xept caldari caps, but thy are no good).

PS my personal experience: I used CNR, NM, Machariel and Tengu on lvl'4s. If I have to choose one ship, it would be Tengu, without doubt.

Posted - 2011.06.01 16:35:00 -
[14]
I agree with Capt. Nareas tengu is the Swiss army knife of ships. It can do all PvE efficiently. I have flown faction and T2 fits.....faction costs more, but for me is the most efficient money maker for lvl 4's.

That's a pretty stupid thing to say, given that there's many places that the CNR ****s on the Tengu for mission efficiency. Not that I'm trying to rain on the Tengu parade - I think I made my advice fairly clear and concise. But the above is just stupid.--Eve Forum ***** ExtraordinaireOn Twitter

That's a pretty stupid thing to say, given that there's many places that the CNR ****s on the Tengu for mission efficiency. Not that I'm trying to rain on the Tengu parade - I think I made my advice fairly clear and concise. But the above is just stupid.

Running a cruise typhoon in a WR C3, going to make a billion today. Clearly no use for cruise missiles. Remove them from the game and ban liang for mentioning them. (j/k).

To the topic at hand; *sigh* Liang is right. I fly both full t2 good skills, and the CNR is just better at some missions, and the tengu others.

Try rushing WC in the CNR for example. even for a ****ty minmatar agent I get 100 mil "an hour" in the tengu. with 4 in security.

Then fly "the blockade" in both and tell me who wins..Adapt and overcome or become a monkey on an evolution poster.

Quote:IMO, the Tengu does better with overtanking than the CNR. It really does require a pretty specialized fit to make the CNR better than the Tengu. It's probably why so many people incorrectly believe the Tengu is better.

-Liang

Liang, will you clarify what you said here, it seems contradictory (but maybe I am reading it wrong - I respect your opinion). I have another thread going on a similar topic (I am training toward a Tengu, but capable of flying a BS with pretty good skills, especially cruise missiles), and planned on using either an CNR or SNI for L4's until I get my Tengu skills compeleted (or adequate).

Quote:IMO, the Tengu does better with overtanking than the CNR. It really does require a pretty specialized fit to make the CNR better than the Tengu. It's probably why so many people incorrectly believe the Tengu is better.

-Liang

Liang, will you clarify what you said here, it seems contradictory (but maybe I am reading it wrong - I respect your opinion). I have another thread going on a similar topic (I am training toward a Tengu, but capable of flying a BS with pretty good skills, especially cruise missiles), and planned on using either an CNR or SNI for L4's until I get my Tengu skills compeleted (or adequate).

The damage projection of the tengu is better by default (HML >> Cruise), meaning target painters and rigors are less crucial. This in turn means if you lose ALL your mids and your rig slots the tengu will still perform, while the CNR will have lost a ton in performance. It also works the other way around, you can make a cheap, makedo capstable overtanked tengu and it won't be terribly terribad. A cheap capstable overtanked cnr is terribly terribad due to it's lack of damage application.Parrots, commence!

I don't remember such places for 3 years. Ah, wait, one guy from another whorum said that Torp Golem (almost Cruise CNR, yes) does The Damsel blitz faster than Tengu and I had to agree

Actually, I'd wager the tengu does damsel faster. Most if not all missions where you have to kill multiple foes and traveltime is irrelevant(unlike damsel) the CNR will beat it though. Examples would probably be rogue slave traders(mainly 2/2), silence the informant or vengeance.

Quote:My friend run C3 in an AF. Don't know whether he earned a bil or not. It is your/his problem, not achievement.

Originally by:Captain NaresI don't remember such places for 3 years. Ah, wait, one guy from another whorum said that Torp Golem (almost Cruise CNR, yes) does The Damsel blitz faster than Tengu and I had to agree

Uhm. What in the **** is this even supposed to mean?

Quote:My friend run C3 in an AF. Don't know whether he earned a bil or not. It is your/his problem, not achievement.

Which C3 site did he run? Which AF did he use? It might be possible on some of them, but on others the quad web/quad neut/2 battleships shooting you could prove problematic. And really, I'm not sure how he'd break the RR chains on a couple of the sites given the incredibly low DPS an AF has.

Quote:IMO Liang isn't right.

Ok, well its your choice to be stupid. IDC, and I CBA to **** with trying to convince you otherwise. I'd have to go re-buy a mission ship, and that would make me feel like an enormous loser *** tbh.--Eve Forum ***** ExtraordinaireOn Twitter

Originally by:SeitrimSo it's time to say goodbye to my bulky but reliable Drake and start doing lvl 4 missions. I've read a lot on the forums but I haven't seen a real comparison between the Raven/CNR and the Tengu for lvl 4 PVE. I understand that the Raven have an insane amount of DPS. I've also see many saying the Tengu is the fastest and the most reliable way to do LVL 4 missions.

I would really like any useful hint you could give me to make the best choice.

Thanks for the help everyone

Afaik the CNR is a little faster/better, generally. They'd both be included in the top-5 mission runners "elections" if there were any.It's mainly a matter of style though.

* A Tengu is fast and nimble, tanks by speed and signature and can permarun its small shield booster. Your only real threat are webbers/scramblers combined with high DPS, which hardly ever happens. The tactic is simple: stay out of web range, kill small ships first, then medium, then large - even though they spawn additional groups or cause you to aggro the entire room. You basically can tank everything that's thrown at you in L4s as long as you can keep your speed.

* A CNR just tanks every incoming damage but it has its limits. Be aware of what spawns additional groups as - unlike the Tengu - you're not able to tank every possible room entirely. Your DPS is higher and unlike with the Tengu your non-kinetic DPS isn&t 25% lower so you can always use optimum damage types and generally kill the rats faster. Compared to a fast cruiser you&re a bit sluggish though, so travelling may take some extra time.

Posted - 2011.06.02 00:15:00 -
[26]
Raven-->CNR-->Tengu-->Golem, That is what I recommend.

Why raven first ? its cheap and you can T2 fit it and sell it when ready to move on. But the main purpose for Raven is get you used to how active tanking works and does not work, losing it wont sting(much). A Drake's tank is a fit and forget, a Raven/CNR tank requires that you keep an eye on it and probably fiddling with hardeners depending on missions. It would suck if you lost that CNR due to being green with how it flys in lvl4's. Keep in mind you will want techII scout drones to deal with frigs, you could probably get bye with techI drones though.

CNR second, why ? once you are used to how it flys, its a very flexible mission runner with good dps and great range. You can set up tank and dps to fly any mission in any empire space with good completion times. You can relocate with ease using a CNR whenever you want a change of scenery. I find myself flying the CNR more than the Tengu or Golem for missions.

Tengu third, why ? Its fast fun and speedy. On kinetic weak rats the dps is very good, on other rats the dps suffers a bit, something the CNR does not suffer from. The tank on the Tengu is very strong but not invincible , kill the webbing rats first thing because speed is a large part of your tank. Tengu is great for missions that require traveling to gates.

Golem fourth, why ? it takes forever to skill for silly !!! For missions with a lota close range Battleships,a rage torp Golem will just melt them. Flying a Golem is a constant click fest however, tractor, salvage, target painters etc etc. The only time I fly the Golem is if I feel like looting salvaging a mission.

Mostly I just blitz missions, I almost never go back for loot salvage. The CNR's drones eat frigs while the cruise missiles go to work on the battleships/battlecruisers along with a damage type to match any rat. Which is why the CNR in general is faster than the Tengu for most missions. The Tengu is faster for some missions at blitzing, like worlds collide for example. Keep in mind that a Tengu is a prime suicide gank target, but with proper tactics that is a low risk. Right now the ship I fly depends mostly on the mission I receive, for example for recon mission 1-2 ill use a interceptor. For all around mission running the CNR is my ship of choice.

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