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Someone on another thread mentioned that Irmler is a Bluthner managed, Chinese made piano. That would make it the only Chinese manufactured brand in Tier 2 (and the only one other than Perzina that is not in the {bottom} Tier 4.)

If this were true, then it would seem that the Irmler would be the steal of the century, as obviously being Chinese, it must an inexpensive instrument.

Or maybe Larry Fine made a mistake? Or maybe some funny business going on?

Someone on another thread mentioned that Irmler is a Bluthner managed, Chinese made piano. That would make it the only Chinese manufactured brand in Tier 2 (and the only one other than Perzina that is not in the {bottom} Tier 4.)

I haven't seen the most recent LF rankings but I always thought Haessler was Bluthner's second product - and so prob Tier 2 - and Irmler would below that (and not Tier 2). May well be out of date of course.

Basil is correct. Haessler seems to be higher tier than Irmler. The Haessler is made in Leipzig, so I guess that former East Germany is considered a higher quality location to manufacture than Poland, but lesser quality than the former West Germany.

I have a friend Ivan Kahn of Encore Pianos in Dallas who is adding the Bluthner, Haessler, Irmler, Breitmann line to his store. I asked him about this and he gave me the name of a factory source. So I called him and asked him where Irmler is made. He said "Why don't people ask if they want to know." So he was happy to answer my questions but it is complicated.Bluthner has always been made by the best quality of craftsmen in Leipzig, Germany.Haessler has always been made by the best quality craftsmen to a new and different Bluthner design also in Leipzig.Irmler has been made in Poland and China and will now be made in Korea by Samick but this is complicated and see below.Breitmannn is made in China to German specifications and supervision and sold in the US only. These pianos are no longer being made but are still being sold.

Irmlers and Irmlers Europe were made in Poland but the Polish factory has been sold. The current supplies in the US and Europe were made in Poland. In Poland they used many German parts and they were Bluthner designs and supervision. In Europe they sell Irmler Students which were made in China but no longer are being made. In the US these are sold as Breitmann pianos. The new Irmlers pianos which are shipping now to dealers in the US and Europe are made by Samick in Korea to German specs., German design and use many German parts.

I was told that this is further complicated by the fact that most pianos are made from parts from many different locations. Bluthner, and others, are striving to make the very best pianos possible at different price points. And so a company such as Bluthner is looking all over the world to find the best parts made from the best materials with the best labor. Bluthner feels that they need to control design, materials, quality and therefore product as much as they can.

Bluthner also owns the Shiller name and these pianos are the same as Irmler (and Irmler Europe) and were made in Poland.

Methinks that Bluthner wants to capitalize on the good reputation of Irmler (currently Tier 2C) by now sourcing that brand by the cheap Korean production. This will work until Larry Fine catches up and demotes it to Tier 3 (or lower.) But it looks like Haessler will continue to be a good solid Tier 2 product.

sw,[/b] the Irmler decision is puzzling. The original arrangement seemed ideal: Polish-made instruments checked in Leipzig meant that low wage workers produced a product whose quality control could be easily exercised by the parent company.

How much lower - if at all - are wages in South Korea? Will Bluthner maintain an on-site presence?

"Not everyone can afford 40,000 euros [$60,000] for a piano. Our dealers need a range of instruments to sell,"

from wiz

Quote:

Bluthner wants to capitalize on the good reputation of Irmler (currently Tier 2C) by now sourcing that brand by the cheap Korean production. This will work until Larry Fine catches up and demotes it to Tier 3 (or lower.) But it looks like Haessler will continue to be a good solid Tier 2 product.

So, which do you believe?

1. The company is trying to offer desirable products at different price levels.

[or]

2. The company is trying to outfox the public and stay one step ahead of Larry Fine

Wiz,

No offense, but I don't think your comments have any credibility whatsoever.

Why is Korean production "cheap"?Why is Haessler a "good solid" product?

Have you ever seen or played a new Irmler?Have you ever seen or played a new Haessler?Hacve you ever seen or played a new Breitmann?

Thanks tunandot. I agree with you. I have never played or seen these pianos except for Bluthner. So I have no personal experience with them. However I do believe that Ingbert and Christian Blüthner-Haessler are among the finest piano manufacturing people in the world. I also believe that like Steinway, and even more than Steinway, they are trying to make the best pianos anywhere at different price levels. I personally like German pianos and I am interested in how the best Germans are working with our world economy to thrive in the 21th century.

By the way I am interested in how BMW owns Rolls Royce and Mini and has designed better cars which are made in England and the US and elsewhere. Boy I love my BMW car and have a bias. Yet we also own a Japanese car.

I look forward to playing these Bluthner pianos when they get to my friends store.

No offense, but I don't think your comments have any credibility whatsoever.

Why is Korean production "cheap"?Why is Haessler a "good solid" product?

Have you ever seen or played a new Irmler?Have you ever seen or played a new Haessler?Hacve you ever seen or played a new Breitmann? [/b]

I say that Korean production is cheap because as of yet, there has been no product that is Tier 2.

I have not seen or played the brands you have described, but I have read excerpts of Larry Fine's latest book. And even if I were to have auditioned these brands, I am not the expert that Larry Fine is.

Norbert, the bias which shows by the brands that you sell is showing badly in your comment above. The comment above is a poor description of your category 1. Your comment also leaves out the German brands which are in between your categories 1 and 2., such as Bechstein and Schimmel. Lastly, please remember that there have been several brands in your category 2 which are now out of business, such as Ibach. I'm sure that you mean well with this comment, but you need to do a better job with less bias.

Your comment also leaves out the German brands which are in between your categories 1 and 2., such as Bechstein and Schimmel.

Jordang I don't understand what you mean.Although Norbert did not mention any brands, when you say Bechstein and Schimmel are between his 'categories 1 and 2' you probably refer to the Bechstein Academy (with it's confusion about build location and parts used) and the Vogel line by Schimmel (made in Poland)?

However I would still put Bechstein and Schimmel in 'category 1' as they both have the Asian built Euterpe and May Berlin lines respectively.

Norbert, the bias which shows by the brands that you sell is showing badly in your comment above. The comment above is a poor description of your category 1. Your comment also leaves out the German brands which are in between your categories 1 and 2., such as Bechstein and Schimmel. Lastly, please remember that there have been several brands in your category 2 which are now out of business, such as Ibach. I'm sure that you mean well with this comment, but you need to do a better job with less bias.

Jordang,

I think you may have misinterpreted Norbert's comments. I don't think he showed a bias in that post. He mentioned perils that are connected with both market approaches. Those that get involved in Asian parts sourcing and contract building may be " risking 'blemishing' your [their] own good name and/or end up in a quagmire of credibility - perhaps affecting the entire line along the way". Those that stick to what they do best may be missing out on "the huge Chinese domestic market, a market with incredible future potential". This 'missing out' is no small argument because demand for acoustic pianos in Europe is declining even if nowhere near as precipitously as it has declined in the US. Even if the acoustic piano becomes a cultural curiosity in the West, it may become a cultural necessity for families of means in China.

Certainly Norbert's representation of Grotrian and Sauter indicates he is comfortable with these two companies who stay true to what they do best, but I really don't think he's making an absolute endorsement of that business model here. One thing that Norbert does not mention is that no maker in Germany can be assured of permanent sourcing of all needed parts inside Germany or even inside Europe. If and when more piano parts suppliers there shut down or move to Asia, the option of remaining pure German or pure European in terms of parts pedigree may be lost, even if the spare-no-expense execution of the build design is not.

I think your examples are a bit off as well. Ibach was certainly in Norbert's first group, not the second. At the time of its demise, several of its German rivals commented on the factors that brought it down. The consensus opinion was that Ibach never recovered from the mis-step of having pianos manufactured in Korea that wore the Ibach fallboard name. If that analysis is correct, the Ibach case is an example of "blemishing your own good name and ending up in a quagmire of credibility".

Schimmel is not between categories. It is solidly in Norbert's first group as well. Schimmel's May Berlin pianos are made in China of parts from different Chinese manufacturers. Schimmel's Vogel line is made in Poland and Schimmel's own Classic line is at least partially made in Poland as well. I'm not saying that's bad or good. I don't think Norbert is saying that either, just as he's not saying that the Steinway strategy is bad either.

Bechstein is not such a clear-cut case as Schimmel, but Karl Schulze's own comments about the company's activities in Asia leave no doubt as to which approach Bechstein is pursuing. Even if you accept the Bechstein Academy as a German piano, you cannot dismiss its Bohemia and Hoffmann lines which are stated to be manufactured in the Czech Republic, or its Euterpe line, which is clearly manufactured in Asia. Again, I'm not knocking this. It may be the most rational approach going forward. I'm just saying that if you read Norbert's group descriptions carefully, Bechstein, like Schimmel, is clearly in the first group.

One comment I would add to the discussion is that the 'stick-to-what-you-do-best' approach will probably work only as long as it results in, or is perceived to result in, a superior product. If it becomes economically attractive for Asian builders to focus on building Asian pianos to the European standard of builder's intent, parts sourcing, and execution of build, then they may pose a threat to those European boutique brands that spare no expense to themselves or to you--the buyer. At the moment, the stereotype of Asian manufacturers cutting corners on quality still holds sway, especially in esoteric places such as this forum. Should Asian pianos become available which prove conclusively that not every cost savings is a corner cut, then the perception of Asian pianos will be re-defined except for those who need, for whatever reason, to maintain a cultural bias.

Every time I read something like the sort of "pure blood" argument (e.g., what's "purely" made in country X, what's not), I feel like resurrecting the Asian Piano Club thread. Heck, I'll go do it right now. It's overdue for an update anyway.

Norbert's first category is a German company building in China. His second category is German company which is pure German and he describes it as having order "books looking great." Many German companies are using low wage Central European countries to source brands and parts. They seem like the middle category to me. And to describe the first category as the losing one and the second category as the successful approach as Norbert does is not accurate. Some companies in the second category have lost great sums of money, such as Bosendorfer.

Norbert also leaves out the whole Japenese and Korean companies. Plus many German companies used to have pianos made in other countries such as South Africa and England. (By the way that is an interesting story in itself. Ivan Kahn was telling me many of the details of how his family made pianos for German companies in S. Africa.)

My point is that their are not two simple categories of German and how it does or does not buys Chinese. Even the name of this thread is misleading. Irmler has not ever been made in China.

My point is that there are not two simple categories of German and how it does or does not buy Chinese. Even the name of this thread is misleading. Irmler has not ever been made in China.

No argument about there not being simple categories....many different ways that the game is played in terms of levels of disclosure, levels of hype, branding, requirements placed on dealers, etc. I don't think you want to say that Irmler has never been made in China though, especially in light of your post here of the information received from your friend Mr. Kahn.

N, [/b]I think that there's a place for companies with B and C lines. For example, The Steinway family of pianos. Profits from the sales of the B's and C's can be applied to promoting the A's.

Asian manufacturers probably will move up-market, but their products won't have the caché of the storied brands. The premium pianos will attract sophisticated shoppers. Those folks will be able to distinguish between incarnations, e.g., Samick's Knabe, and the real deals.

There will be some status-seeking buying and the 'Net will be a source for forming opinions re desirable brands.

I'm more concerned about Baldwin. If as someone recently posted, that company has decided to brand everything as a "Baldwin," I fear that they'll end up muddying their own water.

Turandot I stand corrected. Yes the Irmler Students sold in Europe were made in China and these same pianos are sold in the US as Breitmann.

Norbert. I guess that you will be wrong. I understand Steinway to be a German brand also making many pianos in Germany. So you are predicting that Steinway, Bluthner, Schimmel, Bechstein, and Yamaha Bosendorfer and maybe others will be "eaten alive." I hope and guess not.

Originally posted by FogVilleLad:Asian manufacturers probably will move up-market, but their products won't have the caché of the storied brands. The premium pianos will attract sophisticated shoppers. Those folks will be able to distinguish between incarnations, e.g., Samick's Knabe, and the real deals.[/b]

Aside from the 2 mainstream Japanese manufacturers - Yamaha & Kawai - no Asian manufacturer has been able to get its premium brand into Tier 2. So obviously, the piano experts have been able to distinguish between the incarnations.

The Blüthner factory has recently expanded to accommodate among other things increased Irmler production. Instruments bearing the Irmler name originate in different parts of the world and are shipped to different parts of the world.

All of the instruments that are sold outside of the Chinese market are finished in Leipzig. Many final and critical decisions are executed in the factory to guarantee the best musical performance and the best value for the individual.

The Irmler pianos sold in the United states represent the finest Irmler pianos available anywhere in the world and compare favorably to many tier 2 and some tier 1 instruments IMO.