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"...health will finally be seen not as a blessing to be wished for, but as a human right to be fought for." Kofi Annan

Nymphomaniac: a woman as obsessed with sex as an average man. Mignon McLaughlin

HIV is certainly character-building. It's made me see all of the shallow things we cling to, like ego and vanity. Of course, I'd rather have a few more T-cells and a little less character. Randy Shilts

Are these the people who think that AIDS is caused by something else other than HIV? If so, you can enjoy some of their scintillating conversation once in a while in the poz room on gay.com, always a source of the 'most' reliable information. cough cough cough

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Floating through the void in the caress of two giant pink lobsters named Esmerelda and Keith.

Well, I guess you gotta break down the two different types of denialists (the one's who have HIV) and the other crackpots who don't.

I don't know what Roswell hole these morons crawled out of, but I can't fucking stand stupid people. Seriously, I ran into several of these lunatics when I was first diagnosed and I think they are either spun out on drugs or have some serious mental health issues.

I'd go so far as to call them terrorists! I don't have time for thier bullshit.

I still havent a clue who we are talking about.... I guess I don't get out much... Or, you Moderators are blowing em out of the water before they have a chance to bread.....

HIV denialists claim that either there is no such virus as HIV or there is but is harmless to humans. They claim AIDS is a disease of sexually promiscuous, disco-hopping, popper-snorting gay men and that in the 3rd world the vast HIV fraud machine has simply reclassified existing diseases as AIDS.

Like Ann said, they are truly dangerous. As some dead white guy said the 1st Amendment doesn't give one the right to yell "Fire!" in a crowded theater. Except with Denialists they're keeping quiet while a dangerous fire rages out of control, claiming people who are tricked into believing their absurd hypotheses.

This is a snippet from W(ick!)ipedia about Christine Maggiore, a prominent Denialist:

"Maggiore became a controversial figure following the death of her 3-year-old daughter, Eliza Jane Scovill, on May 16, 2005. The Los Angeles County coroner concluded that Eliza Jane had died of Pneumocystis jiroveci pneumonia as a result of untreated AIDS. Maggiore had not taken medication to reduce the risk of transmission of HIV to her daughter during pregnancy, and Eliza Jane was never tested for HIV during her lifetime.[2] A toxicologist (and AIDS dissident) retained by Maggiore to review the autopsy report disagreed with the coroner's conclusion, stating that he believed Eliza Jane's death was due to an allergic reaction to amoxicillin."

Maggiore's been chanting the same babble for almost 20 years and her ignorance and hubris caused the death of her own daughter. How much worse can it get before someone finally admits being wrong?

Boo

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String up every aristocrat!Out with the priests and let them live on their fat!

Boo, thats amazing... I learn what there is to learn via Dr. Ben and here... I do not venture to much further out cuz the information starts getting a bit convoluted... Ill stick to my beleif system that seems to be in line with yours...

I suppose these people would say that this was a painting by Piccasso and not AIDS?

Wow -- these people can watch people dying and say that people are 'FAKING' it or that doctors are just reclassifying existing diseases? I love a good conspiracy theory as much as the next person, but I think at some point you've gotta realize that something is really happening. What about breast cancer, etc? Are people faking that too?

Yeah, I'm glad I don't see any posts from these folks...

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It is pretty amazing denialists leave this site alone or the mods do a really incredible job of sniffing them out fast. I've never seen any outright denialist posts and that's a definite plus. I've left other online places because I cannot stand arguing with a granite wall for more than a few minutes without wanting to push the Euthanasia button mercifully.

Boo

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String up every aristocrat!Out with the priests and let them live on their fat!

They're dangerous and we do not allow them to post on this website because of the danger they pose to the unwary.

There used to be a lot more of them around. Sadly, most of them are dead now.

Ann

I agree. They are dangerous and I applaud you for not allowing them to disrupt these boards with their garbage.

They preyed on too many people for too long who wanted to believe they weren't going to die, allowing people to believe they didn't need to protect themselves, not getting the health care they really needed until it was far too late, and for that, I will never forgive them.

Freedom of speech doesn't mean anyone has to provide them with a forum to spread dangerous crackpot ideas.

Freedom of speech doesn't mean anyone has to provide them with a forum to spread dangerous crackpot ideas.

How does freedom of speech come into play here? This forum is not the government or a government agency and is, as such, not bound to protect first amendment rights. It's a private establishment and can make its own rules regarding membership and content.

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Floating through the void in the caress of two giant pink lobsters named Esmerelda and Keith.

"...health will finally be seen not as a blessing to be wished for, but as a human right to be fought for." Kofi Annan

Nymphomaniac: a woman as obsessed with sex as an average man. Mignon McLaughlin

HIV is certainly character-building. It's made me see all of the shallow things we cling to, like ego and vanity. Of course, I'd rather have a few more T-cells and a little less character. Randy Shilts

How does freedom of speech come into play here? This forum is not the government or a government agency and is, as such, not bound to protect first amendment rights. It's a private establishment and can make its own rules regarding membership and content.

That's exactly my point. When you start to tell denialists that they are unwelcome on a forum, they usually start spouting that they have a first amendment right to speak their ideas. But the fact remains, no one is under any obligation to host them.

That's exactly my point. When you start to tell denialists that they are unwelcome on a forum, they usually start spouting that they have a first amendment right to speak their ideas. But the fact remains, no one is under any obligation to host them.

They also have their own forums and websites. Should one try to exercise one's right to free speech on their bandwidth, they seem to have NO problem deleting both postings and accounts. They are hypocrites of the tallest order.

"...health will finally be seen not as a blessing to be wished for, but as a human right to be fought for." Kofi Annan

Nymphomaniac: a woman as obsessed with sex as an average man. Mignon McLaughlin

HIV is certainly character-building. It's made me see all of the shallow things we cling to, like ego and vanity. Of course, I'd rather have a few more T-cells and a little less character. Randy Shilts

I hope I meet one some day. Just so I can offer him a syringe of my blood so he can put his money where his mouth is. I would be HAPPY to pay for a full STD panel and Dr. checkup and all that to show him the only thing in my body is that "FAIRY VIRUS" called HIV! (Note...I used the word Fairy there as a tinkerbell type non-existent being moniker, however with their views I guess it could go the gay way too!) Then we would see who the TRUE believers are!

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LIFE is not a race to the grave with the intention of arriving safelyin a pretty and well-preserved body, but, rather to skid in broadside,thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and loudly proclaiming--WOW! WHAT ARIDE!!!

I was going to post this as another topic until someone started this one.

We got a witch doctor here in Austin injecting people with God knows what and claiming to be a "Naturopath"

I belong to a group that has social parties for people with HIV and one member has been trying to invite people to get in on this great deal like some kind of Amway pryamid scheme.

Naturally, I opened my mouth and brought up this witch doctor's website was bullshit.

Here is a link: http://awakeninghealth.com/aim.asp

My favorite part from crazy witch doctor's site:

"About five years into his work, Dr. Tollett realized that not only had his patients been healed of HIV, but virtually all of their pain symptoms, allergies, and auto-immune diseases were gone, as well."

This woman named "Meridian" is seducing people around Austin into her house and getting them hyped up on a bunch of bullshit. Then she is injecting people with whatever and people are going. Notice she doesn't claim to cure HIV, but her site reflects that's the jist of it.

I didn't want to start another thread because I didn't want to derail all the other topics which people want and need to find.

I think these people are complete crackpots, and I think people should be very careful when seeking out "holistic" or alternative therapies.

To me, from this woman's website alone she should be charged with fraud and put in jail.

well, I am not advocating them in any way, but their theories are a bit more complex than what people seem to be describing them as. plus, they are coming from a good heart, really, i don't think they mean some deadly harm.

well, I am not advocating them in any way, but their theories are a bit more complex than what people seem to be describing them as. plus, they are coming from a good heart, really, i don't think they mean some deadly harm.

I don't think their theories are so much "complex" as "convoluted". They base much of what they say on outdated information and they misrepresent much of the data they use as well.

As for meaning anyone deadly harm, tell that to the people they've beaten up or issued death threats to. Some are just plain deluded, others boarder on being sociopathic sickos.

"...health will finally be seen not as a blessing to be wished for, but as a human right to be fought for." Kofi Annan

Nymphomaniac: a woman as obsessed with sex as an average man. Mignon McLaughlin

HIV is certainly character-building. It's made me see all of the shallow things we cling to, like ego and vanity. Of course, I'd rather have a few more T-cells and a little less character. Randy Shilts

"...health will finally be seen not as a blessing to be wished for, but as a human right to be fought for." Kofi Annan

Nymphomaniac: a woman as obsessed with sex as an average man. Mignon McLaughlin

HIV is certainly character-building. It's made me see all of the shallow things we cling to, like ego and vanity. Of course, I'd rather have a few more T-cells and a little less character. Randy Shilts

Ann's right, there is a difference between fake doctors and denialists. Sorry, I've a bad habit of hijacking topics.

But there are tons of these denialists and conspiracy theory freaks on Myspace. They use outdated scientific studies from 20 years ago to convince other people that HIV does not cause AIDS.

A vast majority of them claim that HIV/AIDS don't exist at all and the virus isn't real.

I do think they are dangerous in many ways. Once you rip apart one of their antiquated theories they go berzerk. ; )

What really bothered me was just how much of it was on the internet when I first started educating myself on HIV. I'd pull up some site thinking I was reading a legit scientific study only to later discover I'd been reading some propaganda from a bunch of wierdos.

That was very frustrating to me as a newly diagnosed person lookng for information!

Its not complex or convoluted. Retards are incapable of having complex OR convoluted thoughts. They like peanut butter. These guys are fucking IGNORANT and have to be mostly retarded. I actually would put them in the same category as fanatical muslims, and those that believe in the POOF theory of the world!

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LIFE is not a race to the grave with the intention of arriving safelyin a pretty and well-preserved body, but, rather to skid in broadside,thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and loudly proclaiming--WOW! WHAT ARIDE!!!

"...health will finally be seen not as a blessing to be wished for, but as a human right to be fought for." Kofi Annan

Nymphomaniac: a woman as obsessed with sex as an average man. Mignon McLaughlin

HIV is certainly character-building. It's made me see all of the shallow things we cling to, like ego and vanity. Of course, I'd rather have a few more T-cells and a little less character. Randy Shilts

I've known a man for many years who denies that HIV virus causes AIDS. He believes in macrobiotic, uncooked stuff and that's about all. His partner who was poz, took up the same views. The partner died last month of meningitis, coincidence? So thinks he. And he's never tested either. Some people are too proud and stubborn to admit being wrong, even in the face of overwhelming evidence.

well, I am not advocating them in any way, but their theories are a bit more complex than what people seem to be describing them as. plus, they are coming from a good heart, really, i don't think they mean some deadly harm.

egello,

With no disrespect to you I challenge your assertions one by one. Denialists' theories are pseudo-science and claptrap that may have originated in the early 80s as semi-legitimate questions but all of their "facts" and "proof" have been discredited many times since. I haven't checked any of the sites in a while but last time I did most of the "news" was from the 90s. Their engine ran out of gas years ago yet they keep pushing that Edsel as far as they can.

If some of them have good intentions they are deluding themselves and others by spreading lies and confusion about HIV and its role in AIDS. Good intentions mean nothing if you're encouraging people to die needlessly. Christine Maggiore's little girl didn't even have to contract HIV, much less die from AIDS, but she is dead due to her parents' neglect.

I'm glad you escaped their clutches before it was too late.

Boo

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String up every aristocrat!Out with the priests and let them live on their fat!

Yes, the sad part is that there are people out there who actually believe them. They give a convincing argument to someone who wants to believe that anything other than a little virus is the cause of so much pain and suffering. I'm glad this site is aggressive when it comes to denialists, because they can cause a lot problems for other websites.

While I think that these people are complete crackpots, I kind of think that people really do have the fundamental and inalienable right to choose their belief systems, even if it is life threatening. I am a firm believer in things like the right to die and, in a way, that includes the right to believe some crazy idea that will cause you to die if you don't take action like take medicine to heal yourself.

Basically, human beings, when faced with crisis, will devise any number of belief systems to explain that crisis. History is replete with examples of all shapes and sizes. In a way, I liken them to the Flagellants of the Bubonic Plague era.

I am not saying these people aren't dangerous to others, and I am not saying they should be allowed to post here... but I am saying that they have the right to choose their beliefs. And, if they recruit someone else to believe, then the most effective way to convince their new recruit of the error of their ways is not to ridicule or criticize, but to evaluate what exactly makes this person tick. When you figure it out, you probably can figure out a more persuasive way to make your case.

It's like religion. People will believe whatever they want to believe, regardless of how crazy or delusional it appears to others. The more strongly you criticize, the more likely they are to become intransigent.

« Last Edit: February 06, 2007, 06:22:16 PM by dtwpuck »

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Floating through the void in the caress of two giant pink lobsters named Esmerelda and Keith.

I had no choice really, I couldn't breath nor move while PCP-ing... and I kept saying it was Candididas moving up into my lungs. =)

My partner practically dragged my ass to HIV doc (who is super hot) and then they dragged me to the hospital where I thought I would die by just being there. Just imagine if I was alone, I would have probably just died or something much more deadly.

However, what I don't get is, why did all this occur when my cd4 was at 11? Why not sooner? does that mean that thrash line of cd4 200 is rather kinda high?

You guys still have to understand where the dissidents are coming from though, I think. Just imagine that you feel fine, then you get a positive blood test and the doc tells you that you have very low immune system while you are feeling all fine and that you have to go on all these toxic medication for prevention, what would you feel? Thats how I felt! I was like what the f. they are just trying to sell me more medicines.

This HIV disease is sort of like science fiction. It came out of nowhere really, and only supposedly target our immune function, and people ends up dying of OI which could happen to hiv - peopel as well. Maybe its the education system? I think most of peopel don't really konw how HIV works,, and that its not the HIV itself that kills, but the OIs. OIs are caused by hiv but by lowered immune system and blah blah blah. So it gets confusing. I mean, I was never re-educated in HIV/AIDS since middles school. The image of skinny dying man and spots on their skin and its relation to HIV and using condoms were all that I had learn, and that having safesex works. Since then of course, never really paid much attention to how HIV really works. Not tto metion how some can go for 15 years with hiv without showing any symtoms. Anyhow,,, it is very complex disease that can be misrepresnted and misunderstood which I think is the reason why so many people turn to dissidents side, initially, which was the case with me, and also being soooooooooo sky crushingly upset by my test result that it sort of made me feel good to be part of something called dissidency, you konw,, the rebels, the antiestablishements and etc....

Anyways, having been one myself, I can tell you guys this, whatever you guys have said about them, they say the similar things. They will say things like how you guys are brain washed by the medical establishement using non specific science and that clinical data aren't worth anything because they reject symtoms and etc... that don't conform to the previously held theory,,, and also where is the real pics of hiv virus,, why never been isolated and how come hiv virus don't effect peopel the exactly the same way,,, and i am sure you guys all know their questions.

The reason why I so feared starting the meds was because on Christine Maggiore's website, she talks about how dangerous these PIs are and there could be sudden death associated with these pills.

They could be right or this could be right, but I don't care as long as I am currently living, and I learned that cd4 count really mean something, which according to Christine, cd4 count doesn't mean anything which was what was wrong with me.

So being a dummy that I am, I first went to a homeopathic doctor that I found in Christine's site, and paid wopping 400 for the first visit,, and all he asked me was what my dreams were and told me to take some fucking lycopodium and iron. What a fucker that he was....

Thanks for your insight having previously been amongst the other category. It sounds to me like you grasped onto that belief system as some sort of coping mechanism to deal with HIV. I can see how people could easily fall into this much like the many outlandish religious beliefs that people subscribe to. I'm just glad you aren't one of the pod people anymore

Puck, Don't even get me started on the religious fundamentalist nut jobs

I'm all for free speech, God knows I like to talk. I just feel sorry for volunerable people who are looking to latch on to anything or anyone, and I despise those who would take advantage of them.

I guess the only interesting bit I got out of the conspiracy theory people and denialists was where did HIV come from and some of the interesting theories.

I personally don't have that answer although I feel it's entirely feasible this was a dormant virus that reappeared or even perhaps manmade (an experiment gone awry). Could be!

The question to me is does it really matter? Not unless there was some scientific research that could come with that discovery. And, ultimately the fact is we all have the Virus and have to learn to live with it.

puck, I agree 100% that adults (and children within slightly different circumstances) have the right to believe what they want, no matter how insane, as long as they don't cause harm to others (like their children, who have no choice). AIDS dissidents prey on ignorance and fear to convince others, some of whom are already or might become poz, to ignore medical fact and allow themselves to die. OK, if it's just adults involved then I'm still with you since I firmly believe in the right to end one's life (ain't that a big surprise!) without causing physical harm to others (e.g., blow your own brains out, not your lover's and then yours). Their right to free speech ends when it impedes a minor's right to proper medical care, IMHO. But, again, depending on the minor's age and general maturity, if a 17 year old wants to ignore his poz status and allow himself to die I would try to dissuade him but it would be his choice. So, to iterate and expand a point I made in an earlier post, I believe Christine Maggiore and her husband should be charged with a crime for allowing their 3 year old daughter to die from AIDS. It was willful negligence at the very least.

Quote from: dtwpuck

the most effective way to convince their new recruit of the error of their ways is not to ridicule or criticize, but to evaluate what exactly makes this person tick. When you figure it out, you probably can figure out a more persuasive way to make your case.

I don't possess the ability to figure out another person's "worldview," for lack of a better word, without spending a lot of time getting to know her/him. Maybe it's my people skills. My experience has been people are complex, even the dullest of the bunch, and cannot be quickly evaluated and classified. Besides, once someone is indoctrinated it is much harder to change his/her view than it would be to properly educate the person in the first place, eliminating the dangerous path of denialism. I'm under no delusion the last statement is realistic but in my ideal world it would be. Finally, if you've ever discussed the subject with a denialist you quickly understand you might as well be talking to a bible-thumping christian zealot or a member of the KKK. Both christian (or other) zealots and KKK members have the right to their beliefs but that right stops when they try to force me or you to bow to their belief(s).

egello, I can easily understand the fear of being poz and desperately wanting to "cure" myself. Scam artists of the lowest kind prey on people with cancer, HIV, and other diseases because of the very human desire to change the irrevocable. We know much, but not nearly enough, about HIV in 2007. Its existence and direct relation to AIDS have been qualified and quantified numerous times by independent researchers across the globe. Many microphotographs of the virus have been taken all around the world in different labs. The theories denialists still claim as truth were discredited and invalidated many years ago. If they were proponents of the Flat Earth theory new recruits wouldn't be in danger of dying because of the belief. New recruits to the denialist's camp are at risk of contracting HIV and ignoring disease progression and in my view that's a public health matter. That's my personal belief but I live by the same proscription I ask others to live by. I cannot force someone to believe the medical/scientific fact of HIV so in this less-than-perfect world denialists exist and are still recruiting new believers, although I hope that number is gradually heading toward 0.

In my perfect world denialists would have disappeared by now since their "science" has been completely negated by the real world experience with HIV over these last few decades. I don't discredit alternative/complementary approaches to dealing with HIV like homeopathy or eastern medicine or herbalism or whatever, but the basic fact of HIV's existence and relation to AIDS is irrefutable and anyone who denies this is refusing to accept medical fact, just like stating varicella-zoster doesn't cause chicken pox (and possibly shingles later). I'd rather have varicella-zoster denialists out there since chicken pox usually isn't fatal.

God, I even bored myself with this one. What can I say? A new bag of pot (used strictly for medicinal purposes to lower intra-ocular fluid pressure so I don't get glaucoma like my twin).

Boo

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String up every aristocrat!Out with the priests and let them live on their fat!

Boo said: My experience has been people are complex, even the dullest of the bunch, and cannot be quickly evaluated and classified

Exactly, Boo... which is why criticizing someone just because their point of view disagrees with your own is not an effective way of convincing them. (not that I am saying you did this personally... I am saying this in general) If your goal is to change someone's mind, the least effective way of getting your point across is to come across as confrontational. In fact, the way that organizations like the KKK are effective in finding recruits is to find things they have in common with the victim. It's the "don't you feel that such and such is blah blah" approach. All effective persuasion is done with a smile, whether it is for evil or good. You may feel your people skills are lacking on this regard, but my reading of your posts is that you have a considerable amount of passion about this particular topic. Passion, in my opinion, implies that you care enough about the people effected by this issue to want to change their minds.

At any rate, I disagree with you about whether or not these people are prosletyzing to children. Heck, you can't even talk about sex in half the schools out there. And, frankly, children get indoctrinated all the time by a whole slate of ideas that can be categorized as offensive by others. If it were up to dinks like Ted Hubbard, we'd all be running around looking for the edge of the world and not questioning that the earth was created in 4763 BC. Children are frequently exposed to that kind of dubious sputum as well. But I don't hear a cry to arms to "protect the children" against such nonsense. I wish there were, but to me, a call to arms to "protect the innocent" is a political cliche with little practical application. You cannot, and should not, protect the "innocent" from ideas. You can only present them with better reasoned ideas.

The fact is, it is part of growing up for people to decide for themselves what is wrong or right. A chorus of heterodox ideas, in my opinion, is healthy and welcome. And, believe me, the ideas presented with the most attention effective persuasion are the ones which take root.

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Floating through the void in the caress of two giant pink lobsters named Esmerelda and Keith.

I'm all for free speech, God knows I like to talk. I just feel sorry for volunerable people who are looking to latch on to anything or anyone, and I despise those who would take advantage of them.

Hi, Wesley.... I feel sorry for them too. I also despise anyone who takes advantage of another person's weakness for their own personal aggrandisement. But, I will still make the case that, if we really do care enough about this issue, we make the case to those people with intelligent compassion rather than clutching our pearls and burning a cross about it. The higher our dais, the more likely we are to be ignored. Some of them will be lost, some will not. That's the way it goes. Some people cannot, and will not, change their minds about things, simply because a rosey world view is easier to reckon with than the uncertainty presented by a nasty little virus which, at least at the height of this particular debate, was usually fatal.

I guess I focus a bit on delivery. But, I have worked a lot convincing people that their harmful ideas were harmful to themselves. So, I have no reservations in saying that the only effective approach for convincing someone of an idea you care about is to communicate with them on a level that they themselves will respond to, without a whole lot of negative projection...to which, unfortunately, many of us are prone.

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Floating through the void in the caress of two giant pink lobsters named Esmerelda and Keith.

The last time I ran into an HIV denialist online, I told them if they were so sure that HIV was harmless that I'd be happy to provide them with a pint of my blood to transfuse into himself to prove his assertion.

Strangely enough, he didn't take me up on my offer. In fact, I've never seen someone come up with so many lame excuses so quickly.

They first said "what if you have something else like HepC?". I told them I had been tested for HepC and was negative.

Then it was...."I am not going to inject myself with blood with all those toxins you call 'medicines' into my body" I offered to take a drug a drug holiday and explained that the given the half life of my meds, I could be clean in less than a week.

And then he got all defensive about how it wasn't necessary anyway since HIV was already a disproven theory and went on to tell me some cock and bull story about how some moron in Spain or Germany already injected himself with HIV contaminated blood to prove it and that settles it.

Of course, he didn't bother to mention the man he claimed injected himself died of a heart attack less than a year after supposedly injecting himself, thereby nullifying his experiment.

That's what it is like to argue with a denialist. It's all very entertaining, but ultimately futile. Unless they already have HIV, they aren't going to budge....they will just equivocate and run in circles.

I already knew this, of course, but since it was an open discussion, I decided to argue my side just so I could put the information out to people who were reading how ludicrous their arguments were.

I particularly liked pointing out how Huw Christie, one of their big denialist leaders died of "not AIDS" (that rather odd disease that afflicts many denialists which remarkably has all the exact same symptoms you would expect in AIDS, but couldn't be AIDS since AIDS is just a big hoax). And how overnight, in the eyes denialist community, he went from "heroic challenger of the status quo" to "drug abusing workaholic who didn't take care of himself".

Or Ronnie Burk and David Pasquarelli who were part of the people that hijacked ACT-UP San Francisco to promote their denialist bullshit. They went around preaching their "gospel" to anyone who would listen and loved to disrupt real HIV organization meetups and meeting by shouting "AIDS IS OVER!" and encouraged people to stop taking those poisons being handed out by the drug companies. They also both died of "not AIDS" in the same year. Ronnie wasn't seen much in his last few months. Apparently he was suffering from debilitating fatigue brought on by "stress" that left him bedridden until he died of officially of a "stroke" at the ripe old age of 47. David, on the other hand, died officially of CMV which is pretty damned rare for someone with an intact immune system to die of. Of course, you never know. I suppose it's plausible that it was not really HIV/AIDS. After all, don't we all know non-HIV infected people who suddenly suffer a complete collapse of their immune system at the age of 36?

But it was a fascinating look into an almost obsessive cult-like group. Apparently, the person I had been arguing with became so frustrated with my taking him to task that he called in some help from denialist msn group and I got all the fun of going round and round with self-styled denialist Paul King and few other friends from their little group.

But don't think for a minute they aren't still out there proselytizing to this day. They are still around and sadly probably always will be. Some people also believe the world is 6000 years old, despite all evidence to the contrary.

That was a very educational and entertaining story of yours. Rest assured these people are out there, only we have a whole new generation of em. Most of the ones I run into are teenagers or early 20's. There are so many of them on Myspace they've all but ruined most public forumns on HIV.

I got a bit of a history lesson here from all of you who posted stories recounting the early ones who've all bit the dust now. I can't imagine having to deal with psychotic harrassment at some public meeting.

I've always wondered how people get indoctrinated into their beliefs whether it be the aids denialists, anti abortionists, fundamentalists or foreign radical terrorists. All of em so obsessed with one issue or another that they are willing to die or kill. I can't figure out if it's some mass brain washing or mass hysteria or a combo. Maybe they are just Freaks!

Anyways, I got no idea who this Christine person is or was. Now I'm wondering who produced this new breed of em. I blame the Republicans

ok, you guys are all pretty much to the point there, however there are many sides to the "dissidents" I feel like I am defending them, but its sort of like know your enemy before making any criticism of their belief kinda thing.

Its funny because how much what we say about the dissidents is so much like what the dissidents say about hiv/aids believer and medicine takers. They consider this whole medical science as pseudo and modern religion. They believe that we believe in the modern science, pharm. companies and hiv/aids movement, cancer, toxins and etc.. almost like how religious peopel believe in their religion without question. They consider them as poison and they view religion as poison. As Austin pointed out how they are indoctornated, they believe that we are indoctornated by all that constant media hype, false advertisement, crazy infection rates and constant buzzing of hiv/aids theory. (The begginging of hiv descovery by Rober Gallow and Luc Montganier was very fishy in my opinion) Anyways, they believe that the whole hiv/aids is an industry and everything has been manipulated and created to support that industry which is really trillion dollar industy. Also, they belivee tthat the funding by the government to hiv/aids agencies plays importnat role in people not wanting to examine other theories besides hiv/aids.

These people are not republicans nor conservative, they are actually very liberal or ultra liberal kind of people who pride themselve in not believing the masses and not trusting what the government tells you, like CDC or FDF. They consider those agencies to be working with the Pharm companies to make maximum benefit. They consider AIDS to be brought on my modern toxins (processed food and drugs) and how some people who test postive are just filled with many viral antigens, and not specifically HIV that react in one's system so that that person ccan't deal with all the toxins and ends up having compromised immune system.

They also believe that all the scientist and researchers are there to get funding so they don't cross line of hiv/aids theory when working or doing their experiments. They don't believe in guiding one's health stautus by cd4 count because how its unspeicifc marker and only 5 percent of them flow freely in your body and how rest are stored in your lymphatic node or tissue according to them. They also don't believe in viral load test becuase the person who created PCR is a dissident himself and thinkgs that PCR shouldn't be used to test viral load. They belive that hiv cannot be cause of aids because it hasn't spread into the straight community as opera or others have hyped about in the past. In africa, aids is caused by malnourishment and disease causing water and poor hygene.

There is another idea of how sperm contains something that is very immunosuppresive, so receptive anal partner have high chance of compromising his immune system as inesteine is very absolvant of these toxic sperm.

They also believe that PIs and modern hiv meds works only because they are killing off mass amout of other virals that are constnatly causing problems in sick person's system. (in my case, as soon as i started bactrim, my stool became hard)

They also don't believe in the test becaue the hiv test only looks for not hiv antibodies, but whole collection of antibodies which the establishement thinks that is the produced by hiv

Hughie,,, that was tough

But the most important of all that really turned me around was,,, they had no cure, and they had aboslutely nothing to say when I was starting to get sick. NOTHING They were all aware that I lived almost too perfect healthy lifestyle and I didn't do anything that would have caused this compromised immune system to come about. I avoided medicines and used only non toxic stuff and ate extremely healthy with lots of supplements. One person suggested ginko for prohylaxis for pcp and another one even said maybe all that combination of "good for you" stuff were cancelling each other out and was making me ill. I could curse, but i won't. Some stupid lady name Bee said garlic tea with cure pneumonia. Arggghhhh.... Anyways, I always had my doubts and I guess I sort of experimented all that on myself and dragged on that belief as long as I could until the day when I couldn't move due to not being able to breath. This whole time, my b/f was scared as shit and was in contact with my current doc. Anyways,,,,, so freaking dramatic.

They belive that hiv cannot be cause of aids because it hasn't spread into the straight community You sure they aren't Republicans? ; )

Hmm, Well Eg, I'm actually glad you are here and shared your personal account. I've got a few friends who are absolutely militant about everything they eat and working out etc and ultimately it probably won't do em much good as your case illustrates.

I still fail to see how anyone could be that obsessed with sperm or what not, and I'm a gay guy.

This gave me a lot of insight into how they think although most of it seems so strange to me. I'm glad your partner was there for you and that you've gotten to the doctor.

Thanks for giving me the inside scoop. I learned more than I could have imagined already.

And I hope you don't think my criticisms of denialists are indicative of any real hatred toward those who are just misguided. I can certainly understand the human desire to convince yourself that something truly awful isn't real. One could say it's a defense mechanism. People who feel they have no hope tend to gravitate towards to groups that offer hope, even if that hope is a false one.

The people in the dissident movement I take real issue with tend to fall into two groups:

1) Infected people who go out of their way to disrupt the people who have aligned themselves with the mainstream scientific and medical community on HIV and AIDS. Telling people to not take their meds, that meds cause AIDS, disrupting meetings of people who are trying to fight this, etc....

2) Uninfected people who treat denialism as a cause celebre. Peter Duesberg and Celia Farber spring to mind instantly. And I have been familiar with them since the late 80's when Farber was writing monthly drivel in SPIN magazine from every crackpot alternative cure to the rantings of Duesberg.

I still maintain that the denialist movement is a dangerous thing to the infected and uninfected alike. Especially in light of the empirical evidence that exists since 1996 and the advent of HAART.