<AnnaBelle> Third time it's
given me "This passcode is not valid" for 3694.

<AnnaBelle> Will try again in
about 5

<AnnaBelle> Glad Andrew
likes!

Andrew: The Indie UI diagram is
great.

Easy Checks - Flow

Shawn: This is about the order of
the checks, Suzette brought up a good point - what is the story
we are telling? Are we saying, here is a process you can go
through. Or are we saying, here are important, common things to
check?
... Suzette had an idea for reorganization. She put that in a
new wiki page for us to review. Thanks Suzette for doing
that.
... several people commented

Andrew: reads the flow
comments

Suzette: The main content is
changing as we are still discussing it. I was glad to see
trying out the new format with the Forms content. I think this
order might be easier for the novice to relate to.

Shadi: Can you say more about the
elements?

Suzette: Wanted to put things
into terms that can be understood by those who don't develop or
may not be familiar.

Shadi: To start with page title
seems like it may be confusing because the accessibility issue
is not as clear. Starting with something like headings might be
better because it involves design.

Jennifer: But starting with page
title is good becasue it is so easy. it begins with soemthing
that is very easynto accomplish and understand.

Liam: If you only have access to
CMS, headings are easier to change than page title.

Shawn: We're expecting that
people may not be on their own site.
... so in summary, the questions are - do we want an easy win,
and easy check, a clear accessibility issue, or what is the
emphasis to be?

Sharron: I agree with
Jennifer

Shawn: It is the simplest in
terms of the instructions themselves - easy to do.

Sharron: I am not sure that
people will be making judgements about what is or is not an
accessiiblity issue

Shawn: And there is a short
reference in the intro

<shawn> q/

Shadi: Jennifer convinced me. The
better chance of winning is a positive encouragement so I want
to move away from the idea that the order is not relative to
the importance of the issue.
... color contrast then seems as though it would come before
keyboard access

Suzette: Must identify which page
you are testing and so if there is a good title, you will be
more able to do that.

AnnaBelle: Are we going to
explicitly state the order in the introduction?

Sharron: That would support
Shadi's comment that we need to get away from the idea that it
is in order of importance

Shawn: When we move this to a
page, we will nto have numbered order.

Jennifer: No strong opinion.

<Andrew> not in order of
importance, rather in (sort of) order of complexity - worth
mentioning

Shadi: That may be a bit too
formal. In the How to Use this Document section, perhaps make
sure that there is no misunderstanding about ordered for
importance.

Shawn: Are we OK saying to just
watch for this later?
... that is something we can check out at CSUN. Informal user
testing, and see what people assume?

<trackbot> Created ACTION-269
- Add note about order to evaluation analysis page. Will add
section on notes for usability testing. [on Andrew Arch - due
2013-02-15].

Shawn: I had some comments on the
headings and will see if we have time to come back to that

Easy Checks - Indicating nonvisual and visual
checks

Shawn: Did you ahve a chance to
look at that? Some steps require you to see the page visually.
We have also been mindful of including checks that can be done
without being able to see.
... Sharron and Vicki said the current way of labeling is
cluttered, what do others think?

Jennifer: Absolutely agree with
the clutter comment. I'm just having a hard time estimating how
many sub points will there be?
... I think blind people will be able to figure out what they
can and cannot do.
... in a wierd kind of way it shows that blind users may be
limited if they are hired as a tester.

Sharron: one short sentence

<Bim> q1

<shawn> Some checks require
you to be able to see the visual rendering of the page. These
are marked [visual]. We've indicated checks that do not require
seeing the page with [non-visual].

Jennifer: Yes that is what I was
thinking and if people catch it in the intro , fine.

Shadi: Is it only visual that is
an impact. What about multimedia aspect that may be
inaccessible to some?

Bim: I was thinking about using
the word concentrate. The test concentrate on ... or something.
Many of these tests can be performed by everyone and if not,
they are indicated.

Shawn: So the point is to say
that everyone can do most things

Suzette: One of the benefits of
ordering by elements as I suggested is that it moves away from
the idea that people with disabilities cannot do effective
evaluation.

Shawn: if youa re a screen reader
user, or you are deaf and you can't do some of these checks,
would it be annoying to realize that while you are in
process?

Andrew: I think that most people
will read through the checks first and be able to self-regulate
about whether they will be able to complete the process before
they jump in and find out while in process. They will recognize
their ability to complete.

Bim: Blind people are very well
aware of what they are/are not able to do. In many cases, if a
blind person is testing, they are often assigned a work buddy.
Let's don't be too precious about it.

Shawn: Take all references off of
the section headings and add to the watch items.

Shadi: Yes, I support that. And
related to the ordering, we should be mindful to start with
things that can be perfromed by all.

Jennifer: Yes I can't think of
anyone who can't check for page titles.

Andrew: Well I think most people
with standard hearing should be able to make a brief judgement
about whether it is comprehensible.

Jennifer: It is an easy check but
since this sectin is short and sweet, do we want to make it
longer and more complex?

Shawn: And it is not really an
easy check to make a final decision about it, only that it
MIGHT be an issue for further investigation.

<shadi> +1 to liam

Shawn: since not easy to finally
determine and not a frequently occuring problem, we can leave
it out. Or we can say it is an easy one to understand and so we
could include it.

Liam: I am in favor of leaving it
out as a rare and unusual problem that could only confuse
people.

Shawn: OK, if no objections we
will leave that out.

Liam: and putting in specific
instructions, such as how to turn on captions.

Shawn: Thoughts on that?
anyone?
... Do we need to say how to in YouTube only? Vimeoas well?

Liam: We should do both.

<Andrew> I sometimes recomend
also offering a download option to play in the agent of
choice

Shawn: Because the multimedia
issues may be quite complex, we have simplified to the point
that an assumption might be made that every video must have
audio description, captioning and transcript. Which is not
true.
... is ther a good place to point about explaining the levels
well for multimedia
... do we need to say something about conformance levels in
relation to multimedia.

Bim: I was just thinking that it
is very complex although it could be explained in a few words.
Is there enough explanation of the fact that its audio
description OR transcript to meet level A?

Shawn: It is not easy to find
that answer in the current guidelines.

Sharron: Should that be in the
intro?

Bim: Could it be in What to Look
For? Audio description for AA, AD or transcript for A?

<Andrew> talk of levels would
just seem to add a layer of confusion for new folk - especially
if just on some checks

<trackbot> Created ACTION-270
- Take comments about multimedia and revise for review [on
Sharron Rush - due 2013-02-15].

Subtopic: Page titles

Shawn: This one is getting close,
want to pull out few remaining things. Comments were made about
visual complexity, needed simplification. Edits have been made,
what to people think. Particularly about Tips.

<Andrew> examples are good to
aid understanding

<Bim> like the examples

Sharron: +1

<Suzette2> +1

Shawn: I deleted a bunch of
things, is it OK as is?
... a few actions that need to be done.

<trackbot> Created ACTION-271
- Look up keyboard equivalents on FF toolbar instructions for
page title and other places where @@keyboard equivalent occurs
on wiki page.? [on Andrew Arch - due 2013-02-15].

AnnaBelle: Do we talk about
trying to get images in. I thought about trying to do this on
my own site as a sandbox.

Shawn: send me the images?

AnnaBelle: I like to work with
them a bit first. I will point you to that when I am
done.

<trackbot> Created ACTION-272
- Figure out how to add images in the wiki. [on Shawn Henry -
due 2013-02-15].

Subtopic: Alt Text

<shawn> Alt text depends on
content. For example, for an image of a dog on a kennel club
website, the alt text might include the breed of the dog;
however, the same image on a dog park website may be there just
to make the page more attractive, and the image might not need
any alt text (null alt explained below). [@@ new sentence:] One
way to help think about appropriate alt text is: if you were
helping

<shawn> someone read and
interact with the web page and they cannot see it, what would
you say about the image?

Shawn: Does the new sentence
help?

Jennifer: Yes and is clear as is,
do not need the phone reference in this context.

Sharron: +1 to Jennifer

Shawn: If the image is
sufficiently described in the text � for example, a simple
diagram illustrating what's written in the web page text � it
does not need additional alt text. [@@ suggest null or
"illustration described in main text" or other? Andrew: I
usually suggest alt-text along the lines of "Diagram of
(something) as describe above/below"]

<Andrew> important iomage
still, so not NUL

Jennifer: I personally prefer
diagram xyz is described below but not sure if I am in the
minority.

Andrew: So a person who does not
see the image, knows that it is there in case of conversation
about it with a sighted user.

Jennifer: Yes, I like to know
that the diagram is there

Shawn: The alt text does not need
to include the words "button", "link", or "image of".
[@@suzette: because the screen reader will indicate this
automatically. shawn: too screen reader focused? what about
others not seeing images? andrew: alt-text for PWD is primarily
for screen-reader users]

Suzette: It is important to help
people understand how it is announced so that they know why it
is redundant.

<Andrew> Suzette's suggestion
adds explanation

Shawn: We generally want to be
careful about feeding the myth that it is for blind users
only.

Sharron: Could say assitive
technology instead

<Andrew> people will wonder
why not to add 'button' etc if they're new

Bim: Does it have to be about
screen readers?
... There is normally a placeholder related to the size of the
image so you would be aware that the image was not there.

Shawn: But if you are a sighted
user, with images turned off, you might not know it is a
button.

Shawn: There is in the EOWG notes
section a link to the decision tree. We would not want to
reference now, but maybe after publication as a draft
... question is whether to possibly confuse people about the
Easy Check

<Andrew> +1

Sharron: Why not put it in the
"To Learn More" section?

Jennifer: +1

Shadi: you mentioned earlier the
Application Notes and I know this draft is coming out before
that, but you could add that there will be more information
coming. This might help us prioritize the Application Notes

Shawn: Andrew vbrought up the
possibility of confusing people about the fact that CSS images
will not have alt. But the explanation itself could add
complexity. Thoughts?

Bim: I don't think it is that
complex to explain.

Shawn: Our target audience for
this may not know what CSS is.

Liam: Stay away from it. We can't
get them to do everything, let's get them to do something that
they understand fairly easily.

Andrew: Must accept that they
will be confused in some circumstance.

Shawn: But during usability
testing, we should look out for that confusion and see how much
of a problem it is.

Topic - Title Ideas for Easy Checks
document

<shawn> Easy Checks - A First
Look at Web Accessibility

Shawn: Current title is "Easy
Checks-a First Look at Web Accessibility"

Bim: I like it, it is reassuring
but gives the clear message that it is not a complete audit. It
has the right kind of wording for those who use search
engines.

Andrew: I can live with it

<Zakim> LiamM, you wanted to
ask about confusion with 'Preliminary Review of Websites for
Accessibility'

<Andrew> proposed title
doesn't quite work for me, but it's ok

Liam: Wondering if the title
clearly provides a signpost to differentiate from previous
documents.

Shawn: This will replace that
document.

<Andrew> "A First Look at Web
Accessibility" is misleading - it's just a first look at
testing/checking

Shawn: probably should put
somewhere "formerly known as..."
... Right but it does asay checks.

Andrew: But this really does not
describe web accessibility but does describe a testing
process.

Shadi: I had a similar reaction.
It is different than a first idea of web accessibility.