Wayne L.

I think the reason Sometime In NYC bombed at the time on the Billboard album charts if you follow it is because it was so unlike John as an artist & a former Beatle especially after his solo masterpieces John Lennon Plastic Ono Band & Imagine despite the music itself being great even though his radical left lyrics are too extreme. Its similiar New York Times album cover with Nixon & Mao dancing naked which was possibly too offensive besides hanging out with Yippie leader Jerry Rubin which probably turned off some fans at the time but Sometime In NYC is one of Lennon's most underrated classic rock albums which shouldn't be ignored.

[quote by=The_End link=Blah.pl?b=lennon,m=1081884028,s=1 date=1081887989]It was probably TOO radical for most people - especially in Britain! The British tend not to buy albums which contain pro-IRA songs!

Among young people (I mean up to early 30s, the market for Lennon stuff in those days), the political attitudes expressed in SINYC were pretty well accepted. So I don't agree that the album was too radical.

I think there were a two or three of severe problems with SINYC:

*Yoko was much in evidence. This album was the first mainstream attempt by the two of them to present as a double act on record.

*The lyrics were frequently slogans strung together. After a couple of listens, you get tired of that. The songs lacked subtlety. There was little room for listener interpretation. John and/or Yoko are telling you how it is, no argument. It is a hectoring, bullying album.

*John Lennon was being increasingly seen as having nothing to say. Or, at the least, he was no longer a "spokesman". In other words, his credibility was shot. It's interesting to speculate on why Lennon so quickly became "passe", but surely Yoko has to accept part of the blame.

I'm sorry, The, but many many under-30s (inlcuding Englishman) thought then that the British Govt was behaving disgracefully in Northern Ireland. The "young" view at the time was that the British should get out of Northern Ireland.

You quote from "Sunday Bloody Sunday". Most thinking people were appalled at the soldiers' behavior on that terrible day: and did not believe the lies in the susequent cover up. To further quote that song: "Not a soldier boy was bleeding when they nailed the coffin lids".

it failed because it sucked.................still does and always will...sisters o sisters is the high point loljohn was hanging with some of the chicago 7 then wasn't he?and a few black panthers too....there was the one guy that killed a few people malcom m or whatever letter the guy used.face it john was in a position where the gorernments were scared he could sway the youth into rebellion against their authorities.but he never had that much power anyway so that was the wrong tree.alot of people hated john for protesting war.considered him a non conformist.a hippie.i have met lennon haters of this sort.the album sucked in any era.maybe a single album would have sold it better.

*Yoko was much in evidence. This album was the first mainstream attempt by the two of them to present as a double act on record.

*The lyrics were frequently slogans strung together. After a couple of listens, you get tired of that. The songs lacked subtlety. There was little room for listener interpretation. John and/or Yoko are telling you how it is, no argument. It is a hectoring, bullying album.

*John Lennon was being increasingly seen as having nothing to say. Or, at the least, he was no longer a "spokesman". In other words, his credibility was shot. It's interesting to speculate on why Lennon so quickly became "passe", but surely Yoko has to accept part of the blame.[/quote]

I agree with those statements, as far up to John being Passe. I think it was just he was just at a musical stalemate perhaps. And this album didn't have much to do with his talent, just points to get across. Alos I think yoko's influence was dramatically evident in EVERYTHING that he did after and some during the beatles. But it wasn't always bad. Just mostly in this album

He wasn't helped by Elephant's Memory. They seem to have been hired by the Lennons because (A) they were fairly competent and (B) their name, combined with Plastic Ono, formed the word POEM. That was Yoko's contribution, deep as usual!

Dear Lord. See I learn something new every day. Yeah I never particularly liked anything related to yoko. I liked Most of Johns contributions on Double fantasy, but nothing could really save that album from her either..

I agree very much. I respect the decisions she's made (most of them) since his death in releasing certain things. I though the John Lennon Anthologies were great. I bought Wonsaponatime, and its very ... Graceful? I guess you could say. Its just shows him in the form he should be remembered for, but her musical influence in John can be summed up in one mature word... PTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTHHHHHHHHHHHHHPPPPPPPPPPPPTTTTT!

Here's something controversial (coming from a HUGE Lennon fan)... at the time of John's death, I actually think Yoko's musical direction showed great promise, and for me, one of the most memorable stand-out tracks on Double Fantasy is Kiss Kiss Kiss (and not because of the "orgasm" bit!!!).

I also love Walking On Thin Ice; the song which John and Yoko were mixing the night of his murder. Yoko seemed to be the one with the hard cutting edge, whereas John seemed to be... I dunno... still sleepy. It seemed to me all the wheels weren't yet turning... and then...

We'll never know what turn John's music would have taken, although the scraps of songs released as "Milk And Honey" showed great promise. I would have loved to have heard how Grow Old With Me would have sounded in its finished form.

[quote by=The_End link=Blah.pl?b=lennon,m=1081884028,s=16 date=1082036980]We'll never know what turn John's music would have taken, although the scraps of songs released as "Milk And Honey" showed great promise. I would have loved to have heard how Grow Old With Me would have sounded in its finished form.[/quote]

Do you really think they showed "great promise"? A lot of them were rejects from the Fantasy sessions, so John can't have regarded them too highly.

The one song that has a bit of the old John about it is Nobody Told Me. But it isn't that great. Grow Old With Me seems very domestic, sentimental and over-sweet to my ears. A few other songs from that era are like this too (eg Beautiful Boy).

I'm not disagreeing to upset or provoke anyone here. I genuinely find the material by John on DF and M&H fairly ordinary.

I really do think they showed great promise. And I don't think you can all the tracks on Milk and Honey rejects from Double Fantasy; John had a lot of songs to record, and it's obvious they wouldn't have fitted on a single album - especially when it was decided that Yoko would be on half the tracks.

Do you think John would have filled up his next album with so-called reject tracks from his previous one? It is highly unlikely that John would have discarded that many new tracks - more likely he would have revisited them at a later stage and maybe refurbished them. These were SURPLUS tracks not rejects.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't think John ever had much 'rejected' material in the vaults - Menlove Avenue and Anthology were basically collections of demos, out takes and alternate mixes. He didn't throw much away.

We all have different opinions on John's final recordings, and I agree that Double Fantasy wasn't any where near the standard of Plastic Ono Band and Imagine. There are a few stand-out tracks from John - Watching The Wheels and Woman for example, but I don't think Lennon's 'edge' was quite there yet...

Regarding Grow Old With Me, I always imagined this as as "Oh My Love" kind of production - simple guitar/piano/vocal. I never visualised it with full orchestral accompaniment - although John DID I seem to recall. There's nothing wrong with a bit of sentimentality, but I agree, it was over done on Double Fantasy.

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Wayne L.

Sometime In NYC could have been more popular back in 72 because it has some great music on it despite the radical left lyrics but some fans were EXPECTING way too much at the time after Imagine which is why it bombed. I think Double Fantasy is a great music collaboration between John & Yoko which was their most mainstream & most commercial album they ever did but it's no JLPOB.

Here's something controversial (coming from a HUGE Lennon fan)... at the time of John's death, I actually think Yoko's musical direction showed great promise, and for me, one of the most memorable stand-out tracks on Double Fantasy is Kiss Kiss Kiss (and not because of the "orgasm" bit!!!).

I also love Walking On Thin Ice; the song which John and Yoko were mixing the night of his murder. Yoko seemed to be the one with the hard cutting edge, whereas John seemed to be... I dunno... still sleepy. It seemed to me all the wheels weren't yet turning... and then...

I couldn't agree more. As I'm trying to catch up with all the old threads I'm sorry if I'm repeating myself, but Yoko was good for John. That's the main thing, and he wouldn't approve if you disrespected that.

When I first heard DOUBLE FANTASY I thought Yoko had improved greatly, while John was okay but not as prolific as I expected. Maybe it was the intent to promote Yoko more, but her stuff definitely sounded more in tune with 80s music. And I absolutely LOVED the song "Walking on Thin Ice". It actually played in dance clubs I used to go to.