Absolutely, but the plan was never to put a full-strength side against them, and to add salt to injury starting scrum-half broke his nose a few minutes before the game leaving his 18 year-old brother in charge. The first half was a disaster, then things became much closer.

In general I would Spain is able to compete with any team outside Tier 1, understanding "to compete" as having the level to be a decent opposition and not suffering heavy defeats, but we are awful at scoring and securing wins. First half against Argentina XV in 2017 Nations Cup was a clear example, we spent 35 minutes in their 22 and went to halftime losing 0-10. Then floodgates were opened and subs were done just to rest players for the game against Uruguay... And when you think that going to RWC obliges to pick up all possible bonus points in 2018 REC or beating Tonga or Canada or Uruguay, it's hard not to believe we should already be thinking about 2023 rather than 2019.

By the way, there is an interesting tidbit disclosed by FER's media manager during women's national team media day prior to WRWC. Their WRWC qualifier away against Scotland has been the most watched rugby game on TV this season, above any men's match. It took a place a Friday evening, so I wonder whether it would be possible to hold test matches or REC games in that slot...

And it's true Spain Women have had lots of luck with their TV slots. Their Olympic quarterfinal took place in prime time and that game in Scotland was also an ideal timing... but because they were able to reach such stages on the field. We must be really thankful to them.

From FER press release of their General Assembly:- División de Honor will start on 17/9 and will finish on 27/5.- División de Honor Femenina (women's league) will now be played on a home and away basis. Will start on 8/10 and finish on 8/4.- An agreement has been reached with Teledeporte (public sports channel) to broadcast a División de Honor game every week, all national teams games and a weekly rugby show.- Budget for 2018 is 3,3 M€.

Unfortunately TV news aren't as promising as they look. Games won't be live and clubs have big doubts on who will pay for this. And budget concerns me. If in the moment of history where rugby grows the most and has the biggest media exposure in Spain the budget isn't increased we've got a serious issue here.

No. There aren't official details yet, but it seems from what has been tweeted by some clubs that RTVE could broadcast games anytime from 14:00 to 20:00 on Sundays. Exposure will be there, but diehard fans won't have any interest on following games they already could have seen by streaming.

FER has uploaded their draft 2018 budget. Good news, there are proposed training camps and games with Portugal at U18 and U20 levels. Bad news, they don't seem to have a clue about RWC repechages and there is some sponsorship lost or unconfirmed (LaLiga, most notably):http://ferugby.es/userfiles/file/Transp ... 202018.pdf

Armchair Fan wrote:FER has uploaded their draft 2018 budget. Good news, there are proposed training camps and games with Portugal at U18 and U20 levels. Bad news, they don't seem to have a clue about RWC repechages and there is some sponsorship lost or unconfirmed (LaLiga, most notably):http://ferugby.es/userfiles/file/Transp ... 202018.pdf

Extremely good news from Madrid. For two years its Town Hall has been holding participative budgets where people could vote for new investments in their neighborhoods. Well, last year a rugby pitch was voted. This year two new projects passed through (one of them in Hortaleza, a place that holds 3% of all Spanish rugby players). And different works are in progress in other current pitches, as many as seven could be built or reformed in the next year.

Probably the most important will be Las Terrazas in Alcobendas, considering its horribly muddy state and its club ambitions.

@ Armchair fan i used to have some ties with your rugby, some of my fellows used to play rugby in Spain. You always look like having the potential, good players and great team attitude.Despite what people generally think you have some good teams even back to the '80 &'90. But always looks like you sabotage your own rugby because of your union personal struggles&vendettas.But 2016 looks different story, different approach & a better structure.Everybody seems going in the same direction. What's changed in your rugby?Do you have a different management? Do you think that if you don't qualify to the World Cup it will throw you back to chaos?Or everything looks put on a course and despite successful/unsuccessful campaign the things looks on the track for your rugby?What is your view on this? I must admit that next year game in Madrid it gives me shivers .

Nothing has changed, Bogdan. There is a clear direction regarding senior international teams because after near-bankrupcy in 2014 and World Rugby + Spanish Sports Council rescue package the same management has been in place, not even holding a proper election in 2016. But conflict exists between clubs and union or even between clubs. It could be seen when 2017 Copa del Rey final host had to be decided or with the way Eurosport TV deal was mismanaged.

There is a balance, but a very fragile one and only because everybody knows that until debt is repaid (75% is already done) it's not the time to ask for changes. There is a big lack of transparency in the union. There are clubs with totally opposite views of where the national league should be heading. And in spite of the good vibes surrounding Spanish rugby, private investments are yet to come.

I don't think not qualifying for RWC will send us to chaos, because it's the most probably outcome to be honest. But it will for sure slow down growth. I don't know for how long players will keep growing at a 10% yearly rate if senior performances don't improve. And if we don't make the most of the next four, five, six years, it's pretty clear to me Germany will overtake us quickly. Some Spanish pundits are quite spot on when they say Spain faces the risk of becoming world rugby's Benidorm. A place to come for rugby holidays, holding the odd international match between foreign nations for foreign fans and that's it.

I used to play against a very good Santander junior team, back to 1998 or 1999 i think .I remember talking with Spanish boys and they tell me something like playing senior rugby in Spain is expensive because clubs must pay a fee to union and probably they quit after finish their age grade rugby. This is true or maybe i understand this wrong?I always think that rugby is anything but not expensive to play.

So you can imagine how Spanish rugby really is... Santander has a club in División de Honor, Independiente RC. They used to have a sponsor, Bathco. They lost it last year saying they were fed up with rugby and false promises from public instituions. And now that very same sponsor has decided to sponsor a club from the very same city, CR Santander, with the goal of reachng División de Honor. This team is now called Bathco Rugby Club after reaching División de Honor B (second tier). Instead of having one big club in a small talent pool region you've got two at war.

División de Honor is semi-pro. Most of paid players are those born abroad. Very few clubs pay Spanish players, most of them give them other facilities like housing (it's usual to see clubs partner with public housing institutions or real estate companies) or grants (Cisneros works like this to attract young talent from outside Madrid, other clubs partner with private universities) so they can continue with their studies. So you've got very good players that prefer to keep playing with their local clubs in División de Honor B or simply playing with second or even third teams from División de Honor as a hobby as long as they study or work. In fact, División de Honor clubs work on having multiple senior teams, whether in national second-tier or regional leagues, so they don't lose their young players forever and some of them can be back after a few years.

Most often it's not a question of how expensive it is to play rugby but how much do they lose by playing rugby instead of studying or working. We very recently lost our Sevens captain, Ángel López, aged 25 because he had been accepted to work as a doctor in national healthcare system. Jesús Recuerda, XV captain, has totally disappeared from rugby fields after returning from France and accepting a new job in a multinational corporation, even though he was expected to play for Alcobendas.

It's changing little by little and you find in División de Honor B very interesting projects like Burgos (although very reliant on foreign talent), Marbella (great academy but didn't shine at senior level until now, they're trying to repatriate great players) or Valencia (lots of clubs, all of them trying to go pro but on their own...). But Rome wasn't built in a day and promotion/relegation ladder doesn't favor big changes in the teams that play top-tier.

Armchair Fan wrote:I don't think not qualifying for RWC will send us to chaos, because it's the most probably outcome to be honest. But it will for sure slow down growth. I don't know for how long players will keep growing at a 10% yearly rate if senior performances don't improve. And if we don't make the most of the next four, five, six years, it's pretty clear to me Germany will overtake us quickly. Some Spanish pundits are quite spot on when they say Spain faces the risk of becoming world rugby's Benidorm. A place to come for rugby holidays, holding the odd international match between foreign nations for foreign fans and that's it.

That would be a sad outcome. I always felt Spain had so much potential for the 6N because people from the UK & Ireland love the place and obviously there is a lot of historical rivalry to build upon.

Out of interest, if the plan for Argentina to play out of Madrid in the 6N had happened a few years ago, what impact do you think this would have had for the growith and popularity of Spanish rugby?

If it had happened by 2008 or 2010, I would say it would have failed or at least it wouldn't have drawn as many local fans as today. Even if the structure is more or less the same and our rugby is still amateur, things have changed a lot on the interest side in just five or seven years.

Interesting article on VRAC Quesos Entrepinares new season:- They had 2,000 'socios' (club members/season ticket holders) in 2016-17 and they are targetting a 20 or 25% increase this season, either 2,400 or 2,500.- Believed to be the richest club in Spain, they declare to have a 715,000€ annual budget. 40% is allocated to the senior first team (286,000€).- Spanish Supercup moves from early September to mid-October but has no venue confirmed yet.- Copa Ibérica is scheduled to take place on December 23 with a single-game format but talks are still on-going with Portuguese clubs so to involve in the tournament best three teams from both sides of the border. I fear this clashes directly with CDUL involvement in Continental Shield.- Argentina is giving a warm farewell to Mario Barandiarán, new VRAC General Manager.http://www.diariodevalladolid.es/notici ... 96281.html

División de Honor starts this weekend and according to @jmibanezca (the man behind Revista Veintidós) it will have a title sponsor: Heineken. Since they are an old FER sponsor I wonder whether there is extra money involved or they are just trying to make happier a serious partner. So yeah, it should become Liga Heineken de División de Honor.

Most games will be live streamed on YouTube like always, but TV coverage is secured on Teledeporte, public broadcaster sports channel. Normally on tape delay, but some games are expected to be broadcast live as well. I'm not particularly positive about this, because the channel has a history of crazy programming, but it's something.

Regarding newly hired players, Valladolid teams and Alcobendas seem to have focused on maintaining their core group and signing a few high quality players, whereas others are in rebuilding mode. I leave under spoiler the full arrivals and departures list, as shared in El Salvador forum, even though players are still to come, particularly from Southern Hemisphere as their championships finish:

Apart from that it will be interesting to watch out how some clubs develop in the second tier competition. UBU-Colina Aparejos from Burgos are still pushing after being close to promotion last season, newly promoted CRS Santander caught Bathco sponsorship and was renamed as Bathco Rugby Club with the aim to reach División de Honor, I still have high hopes for CAU Valencia or Trocadero Marbella and there are always interesting teams around Madrid and Barcelona.

I’m not sure why, but I find myself particularly interested in the development of Spanish rugby – probably because many of the ingredients are there for growth (moderately popular already, close to southern France, large population, relatively wealthy, even a large ex-pat British population etc).

I’d be keen to see the Division de Honor emerge as the fourth serious league in Europe behind the English, French and pro-12. Is this viable? Could it stand on it’s own two feet as a professional league with maybe 2,000 average spectators in future?

Another question I have is whether there has been scope, or potential for Spain to host a major team in an international. It strikes me that Spain are not far behind Tonga, USA, Canada etc, and with big stadia and a strongish economy they could draw a big crowd and big revenues for a game in Madrid against a Wales, Scotland, Australia type team. Has this been explored?

Finally, are there any firm statistics for the league in spain? Attendances, TV audiences, nationality of players etc?

Let's be honest. Spanish league will be behind Russia, Romania and even Italian Eccellenza too. At least for the next decade. We've got our strengths, as extensive streaming coverage, increasing media exposure (two rugby podcasts from the biggest national radio stations and a lot more at a local level) and decent attendances, but a lot of weaknesses too. Financially-wise our clubs are miles behind, you only need to have a look to the previous post to find out how much champions spend.

The ingredients for growth even if real, contradict each other somewhat. Populated cities hold lots of registered players (Madrid, Barcelona, Valencia) but the amount of clubs spread fans and often hampers their performances at national level. It's hard to see big crowds for the games in these cities. Even the national team has suffered in the past some low-key attendances when its game clashes with other games in Madrid region, people feel attached to their club, as small as it may be, rather than rugby.

Doesn't sound like the ideal environment for professional rugby, specially in the form of a franchise league. So if professional rugby ever happens again in Spain, it will be under a club model with promotion and relegation. But there is a long way to walk yet. Have you seen the transfer list for División de Honor this year? It's full of foreigners, but are they really professionals? Many of them come to Spain under the promise of a once in a lifetime experience for a season (Kiwis), because they are able to study and clinch some academic diploma (Argentinians), because if they stay here a couple of years they will be given EU citizenship (Latin Americans) or simply because they feel it's a nice place to build a name and then jump to France (you've got a few Saffas or guys from Argentina gone that way). Very few of them are fully paid and expecting to remain in the country and the same club for a long time.

There are rules forcing team to have at least six eligible players on the pitch at anytime, but some teams import dozens of players every year, mainly from Argentina. And there are many coaches coming from Argentina too, there was a first wave due to corralito in the early 2000s and I feel there is a new big wave now. Reasons are diverse: their economy not performing in latest years, the feel that Spanish rugby is growing and they can make the most of it, fights with their regional unions or that they feel safe and think they can give their families a brighter future here. Anyway it's always a huge talking point among rugby fans in Spain, you know, the usual speeches on how third class SH players rob Spanish youngsters of quality minutes and that kind of BS... But things are very crazy right now, as rugby has turned somewhat 'cool' you find third-tier clubs hiring more players for their regional leagues than half top-tier clubs. Today I clicked on a website from Argentina announcing how two players were coming to Spain and they claimed to be fully pro to play in the regional league from Galicia.

Regarding expats, they are key for some teams like La Vila or Marbella, but these clubs seem doomed to ever lasting instability, even if the latter have a decent academy and are trying to settle a more serious project. Balearic Islands could be another example, after they have decided to build a franchise-like team in Calvià (Babarians XV) after one of their clubs reached second-tier this season.

Can Spain host a major team? I don't think so. FER marketing capabilities tend to zero and external promoters see more profitability in holding games between foreign teams. We will play whoever World Rugby wants us to play and the lack of strong sponsors doesn't help either.

Regarding statistics, there is no firm data on attendances, but I would say that for sure they are stronger in Valladolid than anywhere else and both clubs from that city claim to have over 2,000 season ticketholders. Whether they attend every single game is a different story. I'll give you TV figures from the last four years on Spanish public channels under spoiler. My bet is that under new TV deal figures will be around 50-60,000 TV spectators for each game, nothing to become crazy about. I hope I'm wrong.

JamesWales wrote:I’m not sure why, but I find myself particularly interested in the development of Spanish rugby – probably because many of the ingredients are there for growth (moderately popular already, close to southern France, large population, relatively wealthy, even a large ex-pat British population etc).

I’d be keen to see the Division de Honor emerge as the fourth serious league in Europe behind the English, French and pro-12. Is this viable? Could it stand on it’s own two feet as a professional league with maybe 2,000 average spectators in future?

Another question I have is whether there has been scope, or potential for Spain to host a major team in an international. It strikes me that Spain are not far behind Tonga, USA, Canada etc, and with big stadia and a strongish economy they could draw a big crowd and big revenues for a game in Madrid against a Wales, Scotland, Australia type team. Has this been explored?

Finally, are there any firm statistics for the league in spain? Attendances, TV audiences, nationality of players etc?

Gracias!

The Wallabies played Spain in Madrid some time ago. I'd like to see something similar to that occur again.

Liga Heineken 2017-18 Week 1VRAC Quesos Entrepinares 35 - 18 FC Barcelona (current champions suffered until the second half against a heavily changed Barça team that made the most out of its kicks)CR La Vila 21 - 36 SilverStorm El Salvador (pretty easy win for Valladolid squad. Bad TV ratings for the tape delay, only 33k viewers and 0.3% share)AMPO Ordizia 23 - 44 Sanitas AlcobendasUE Santboiana 32 - 35 Senor Independiente (not so surprising if you had a look to transfers list. But Independiente may be penalised: 6 players on the field must be eligible for the national team and 3 of theirs were sinbinned in the last 10 minutes of the game...)Hernani 22 - 28 Complutense CisnerosGetxo Artea 12 - 26 Bizkaia Gernika