A few thoughts about the rumors around the downing of Kogalymavia Flight 9268

Well, I tried to avoid writing about this topic until more hard facts became available. But since this is apparently turning into a political fight between, on one side, Russia and Egypt and, on the other, the US and UK, I think that I can at least offer a few general thoughts.

What we know so far is this: Kogalymavia Flight 9268 had left Sharm el-Sheikh International Airport, Egypt, en route to Pulkovo Airport in Saint Petersburg. The aircraft reached an altitude of 33,500 ft (10,200 m) at 404 kn (748 km/h; 465 mph). Then something absolutely catastrophic happened. The pilots did not radio anything at all, the plane dropped and crashed. The tail section was found 5km away from the rest of the plan. Just from that data we can come to some initial conclusions: this was not a “regular” mechanical failure (like, say, an engine fire) but something which happened so fast that the pilots did not even have the time to react. The aircraft broke up in mid-air. Only three things could have caused this:

A sudden and catastrophic structural failure

A anti-aircraft missile

A bomb inside the aircraft

The first option is possible, and there are reports that the tail had a crack in the back. Other reports mention that the aircraft was involved in an tailstrike 14 years ago. However, this aircraft was inspected, several times, the tailstrike incident was recorded and the long term dangers of tailstrikes are also well known. So the possibility of a catastrophic structural failure is sound.

The second option makes no sense to me at all. I know of no man portable or even SUV-mounted missile which could strike an aircraft flying at over 10km high and at over 700km/h. As for a bigger missile, well, we would have the same problem as with MH-17, only worse: not only would such a larger missile leave a visible plume, and make a very loud noise but, unlike in the Ukraine, in the Egyptian desert the missile launcher and crew would have nowhere to hide after the launch. In fact, even getting such a large missile into the crash area would be very difficult: just like the Ukraine, Egypt is a war zone and there are a lot of “eyes in the sky”. Finally, unless the missile can acquire an infra-red signature at 10km altitude, it would have to be cued to the aircraft by radar and that emission would also be detectable. I cannot prove a negative, and I suppose one ought never to say never, but I don’t buy the missile hypothesis at all.

Which leaves the bomb. To my great regret, this is the version which I find most plausible, if only by Occam’s razor. No offense to anybody here, but the Egyptian security services don’t exactly have an impressive track of protecting tourists. And while it is clear to me that the US and UK are trying to capitalize on this tragedy, I would note that Medvedev just publicly ordered the Russian security services to provide point security in airport terminal were Russian aircraft take off from. Could it be that the Russian security services have already come to the same conclusion as the Brits and Americans?

So it boils down to this: what is more likely – a massive sudden structural failure or a bomb. I believe that the latter is much more likely.

Still, we really should wait for the official report. “Much more likely” does not mean that this is what happened. It is “much more likely” that a coin will fall heads or tails, but sometimes they do end up standing on the edge. There have been tailstrike induced catastrophic failures in the past, and the Kogalymavia airline was facing some financial difficulties, so maybe maintenance was less than stellar.

So what if it really was Daesh which blew up Flight 9268?

Horrible as this may sound, I don’t think that this is very significant, at least not on a political level.

First, Russian officials have always said that the terrorist threat for Russia was real. As soon as the Russian military operation in Syria began, officials were asked whether this would not dramatically increase the risks of terrorist attacks against Russian. Their answer was always the same one: “we already are under maximal threat, this does not make it worse“. This is forgotten in the West, but Russia is still battling a terrorist insurgency in Dagestan. Wahabi crazies are regularly arrested even in Moscow! The anti-terror war for Russia has never stopped and the intervention in Syria is just one more episode of a war which really began following the Soviet invasion of Afghanistan. Yes, this is an immense human tragedy, but it is no worse than Budennovsk or the Nord-Ost episode. Russian expect no less from the shaitans they have been fighting for decades now.

Second, the fact that Daesh had to strike abroad indirectly indicates that they did not have the means to strike inside Russia. Again, one should never say never, but the FSB-protected Russia is a tough one to crack for the Wahabi crazies.

Third, while I would not put it past the Egyptians to lie in their report (they really have a lot to lose!), I don’t think that the Russian officials will lie about the cause of this crash. This is too high visibility a case and, unlike the “Kursk”, this is not a military or national-security matter. The risks of attempting a cover-up much outweigh the potential benefits. Simply put: unlike the Egyptians, the Russians have no imperative reasons to lie (and that is not to say that I suspect the Egyptians of lying; I am only saying that they have much bigger motive to do so than the Russians).

Fourth, regardless of what the final report will say in a couple of months, the Egyptians will pay a huge economic price in lost income as there will always remain a suspicion about what happened. Even if the Egyptian security services did nothing wrong, and even if the final report fully clears Egypt from any wrongdoing, the panic induced by this precedent (fueled by US and UK statements) will badly hurt Egypt. In that sense, Daesh has already greatly benefited from this tragedy.

All of the above leads me to a paradoxical conclusion: whatever the final report will say, it will make very little difference to the situation on the ground. The damage has been done and there is nothing which will undo it.

The Saker

The Essential Saker: from the trenches of the emerging multipolar world

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339 Comments

This was the work of none other than Prince Muhammad bin Salmaan with advise from the mossad, the Deputy Heir Apparent and the “Minister of Defense” for the imploding kingdom of mental squalor. That’s right. When this arrogant little pimp left the office of President Putin, in Socchi, he mumbled a threat which was recorded by the Russian minders in the building. The best effort at decrypting it produced a threat to punish Russia for its help to Dr. Assad and to pay Mr. Putin back for the rude treatment the prince received.

Possible, but from the way the UK and USA are hinting that they know the facts, and refusing to share their ‘information’ with Russia, it seems that they are the more likely suspects. If not them, then one of their proxies, al-Qaeda or Daash. In any case, as an excellent article in WSWS makes clear today, with a report on US Congressional hearings, the USA is openly planning a war of aggression against Russia and China in the near future. And the obvious lack of sympathy for the Russian victims, and the efforts of Western MSM scum to blame Putin or predict his downfall or forced retreat from Syria as a result of ‘outraged Russian opinion at his adventurism’, shows that Western publics are being brainwashed in preparation for war.

My thoughts exactly. The Egyptians should respond by sending ground forces to Syria to crush Daesh completely. Russia will provide a response that will stun us all, I suspect (unless this was structural failure).

The official report does not matter. It is of no use. I shiver endlessly in my little hole, for I will never fly again. The monstrous, cynical charade goes on.

“A flash was seen in the sky” by a pair of eyes in the sky..
“There was chatter on social media”
“More likely than not to have been caused by a bomb on the plane.” David Cameron

“British investigators looking at what caused a Russian airliner to crash in Egypt believe a bomb was put in the hold just before take-off, the BBC has learned.”http://www.bbc.com/news

Just before? By what laws of physics, chemistry and math did the British investigators conclude that the bomb was placed in the hold JUST BEFORE take-off? Why not the first thing the terrorists put in the plane before take-off? Or half-way into the victims luggage in the plane’s cargo hold? Why the last thing the terrorists put on the plane before take-off? How can anybody know thie time for the crime who did not know before or during the commission of the crime?

The important thing, the most glaring thing that this crime should show the Russian oligarchpoly is how terribly weak the Russian security apparatus has become!

All speculation of course, but noting what sort of propaganda is put out by whom, and when, has in the past indicated what the real story turned out to be. Sometimes such propaganda, or reporting, can even be discovered before the event (classic example is BBC reporting building 7 collapse 20 minutes before it did).

blue, it’s getting more obvious from the actions of the propaganda sewer. The BBC cess-pit, with one of its more crapulous residents, Jonathon Markus leading the way, has pulled of a trade-mark ‘reversal of narrative’ today. Now it’s Russia that has information it is ‘not sharing with the USA and UK'(why should it, at this stage?)about the crash. The familiar disinformation trope of ‘terrorist chatter’ has now appeared as the source for the UK’s mysterious ‘inside information’, a sign, I would say that wiser heads have cautioned against too obvious prior knowledge. As for Markus, the ‘aristocrat of humanity’ went on a small master-class of propaganda, twisting the disaster to become caused by Putin in not bombing Daash, but concentrating on the noble, pro-Western, ‘moderate’ opposition, and that he would now wake up and join the USA and UK in concentrating on attacking Daash. As they say, he could sleep on a cork-screw, but couldn’t they all.

“Of course the Australian government – as you’ve said – extends its sympathies to countries which have lost citizens here and the families of those citizens, but I must ask you minister does it strike you as ironic that Russia wants to wait until a full investigation is conducted into the causes of this plane crash, before making any further comment, given how hostile President Putin was to a full investigation into flight MH17?”

Although Bishop preferred not to speculate until more was known about the cause of the crash, she prefaced with this comment:

“yes I’m sure the irony won’t be lost on people, but now is not the time for me to make such a comment.. (..considering the grieving relatives and friends..)”

Oh, yes Sanctuary-I heard that exchange, typically evil. Kelly is repulsive and very stupid, the type of presstitute preferred, and Bishop made her name as a lawyer by deliberately delaying asbestos compensation cases through legal tactics, until the plaintiffs died, which with mesothelioma is quick and awful. The victims’ relatives and their supporters revile her, but that is the ruling global elite type in all its filthiness. I see, too, that the scum at Charlie Hebdo have added their vile talents to the all too plain Western celebration of this tragedy, then had the filthy impudence to criticise Putin as a ‘dictator’ or some such crap, because his spokesman complained of the psychotic lack of empathy. You can really see the true nature of Western elites, evil, psychopathic, murderous, narcissistic, more and more every day. For a while the glorious West seemed content merely with ignoring the Sinai tragedy, but the note of gloating and barely suppressed satisfaction, particularly, as these harridans illustrate, in relation to MH17, is growing. And one wonders if the Western ‘intelligence’ forces will ever publish a recording of the terrorist ‘chatter’ they claim to have recorded, re the crash, unless, of course, it was merely the Western created liver-eaters reporting success to their Masters.

So what sense does it advise me to visit Russia in December?
You see, I have reviewed the estimates of average temperature in late December, and I get values between -3º and -13º C,
Really, will I be able to find any Russian on the street after noon?
What am I supposed to do when everyone goes home to take refuge in a warmer environment? To visit the Lenin Library? Lenin himself? Or steel myself, put my high mountain clothes ( well I’m not Siberian and this is what I have ) and visit the other grandpas out there? Or to visit the museum of the KGB in The Lubyanka? By the way, will be heat there, and a cafe for tea?

On people out in the basis of the mausoleum, on 7th November, I could see the other day the parade commemorating the 1941 parade during the Great Patriot War, so moving, with all those uniforms and vehicles of the time …. You know, I saw myself moved to tears when in the middle of this representation the anthem of the Russian Federation rang ( what nonsense…. you most likely will be thinking…..well, I really do not know what this feeling is….) and even more when I saw the old veteran with a picture of Koba in his lap …..

Well, a charming parade, almost all participants were so young, almost teenagers, and there, stoically enduring the cold, was Mr. Ivanov, on behalf of the Presidential Staff…… Do you know what? I loved the “plebeian street style” he chose for the commemoration on that Saturday morning ….. very in tune with the public…..ordinary people….. people who looked all like very good people ….. suffered ….. but able to get excited about such an heroic history as is theirs…..

(….)” Also ignored are Merchant Navy veterans. The Morning Star newspaper has reported how organizers of the Festival of Remembrance at the Royal Albert Hall have prevented merchant Navy veterans (the youngest of whom is in his late eighties) from taking part in the parade at the event – despite them having participated in years gone by. The Merchant Navy’s Arctic convoys played a key role in supplying the Soviet Union’s war effort against the Nazi invaders, but it seems this is not deemed important enough to allow the men to parade. Instead, the Merchant Navy Welfare Board were offered “a small number of seats” in the audience. Is this really the right way to honor war heroes?”(….)

No, this is not the right way, indeed, a nation who ignore its heroes has nothing to wait from its people in the future….

Fortunately, not all nations on Planet Earth do the same, and there you have that Russia, not only recognizes and honors its own heroes, but does not forget those from other lands who risked everything to help her……

Very, very interesting. Thanks.
I found that interview days ago on TASS and posted here ( do not remember the thread ) in case anbody would find it also of interest. Well, eimar, found it….
Anyway, is always interesting to read Mr. Mercouris insight.

I knew he was a very important person as was he who stood at the mausoleum past 7th November…..
As I can remember, I read that Mr. Ivanov was also in Uganda…..sometime…..and maybe I am wrong, but , is he not also a fishing enthusiast? Like you…..and me……well, really…. more than of fishing what I am fond of is “big blue”…..

Tell me friend, I would like your opinion on something that haunts me lately and I would start asking:

Do you find in any way useful ( for the Russian Federation ) that I continue commenting on this blog?

You see, after two years commenting ( and something else ) here, with greater or lesser intensity, and especially after the massive attack from the “Anti-Zionist Liberation Front”, after my attempt to defend Stephen Cohen, I begin to feel, with increasing intensity, the futility of such an effort ( well, mostly, I steal time from sleep and from my time to be outdoors, with the consequent effect on my health and wellness ).

I feel like the audience, according to my perception mostly from the countries of the “5 eyes”, was too sure of its own knowledge / belief and was impervious to consider any change of opinion / view on anything or learn something new ( with few exceptons, of course ).
I do not refer only to issues about Russia, but as Spanish and Basque, I see that the opinion of some about my country ( the small and the large) remains the same as the rest of the US population that some call contemptuously ” sheeple “( believed to be out of that set ) and is considered abducted by the government/media disinformation and lives in the most absolute ignorance……

The other day, paradoxically, I felt like if falling on me all the “Popular Front of Judea”……

The opponents’ overt “media” strategy is predicated on the notion that the subject/object binary is key, and that people can be “convinced”.

The opponents’ wider understanding is that “perception management” is multi-facetted and requires not only ideological immersion but coercion – legal system, socio-economic relations etc.

Many of the opponents’ overt “media” strategies consicously or unconsciously – by design and/or default – seek to reinforce ideological immersion – this is their definition of the process of “convincing” or “news” – over-writing – “olds”. .

Some do not seek the belief of others but seek to catalyse the testing of hypotheses with others.

Your remarks on flowers show your immersion in at least two aspects of the opponents’ ideologies.

I never ignore anything you say/recommend me. I have all ( all I can catch here or in the ether ) bookmarked, only I have not still the time to read such amount of information.

About Koba, I can not help it, I love him, I do not know what will happen when I read all that, but my love, when I give it, is quite unyielding, and perhaps you also should understand Koba as a man of his time, as points Mr. Cohen, with great responsibilities, self-taught, with no major training opportunities, and without forgetting his personal load from his upbringing. Not everyone is resilient enough to avoid the effects of such a hard breeding.

What evil can do some flowers in his tomb? That’s all that I can do for him now, that… and salvage something from what he did right.

Your remarks on flowers show your immersion in at least two aspects of the opponents’ ideologies.

1. The great man in history.

“salvage something from what he did right.”

2. Sole or primary agency.

These orientations/practices are not/were not restricted to Mr. Stalin – the broadcast was fuller.

Ideologies are immersive, a metaphor sometimes used is being akin to a swimming pool from which you start to emerge still carrying water droplets on your skin.

“I never ignore”

One of our most unsettling aspects is memory.

The context was Memorial and Mr. Figes – the response aversion due to source.

“I feel like the audience, according to my perception mostly from the countries of the “5 eyes”, was too sure of its own knowledge / belief and was impervious to consider any change of opinion / view on anything or learn something new ( with few exceptons, of course ).”

The opponents encourage others to emote, sometimes known as “feeling”.

Which source do you get that? “Within minutes”? Anon sources have stated unofficially quite a lot of hyperbole so far, but not within minutes though. Unconfirmed, uncorrelated, unchecked info doing the rounds of social networks ago go.

The plane was brought down by external force, that’s sure – although Moscow has to be clear to leave no doubt over the exact kind of explosives used in that act of terror.

The “ejaculatio praecox” from the western intel with the leak of a hypothetical bomb on board serves three agendas:

– First, to put pressure on the Russian Gov. by trying to sow fear amongst it’s citizens (which will backfire and hardly work)

– Second, to distract from what really happened

– Third, signalling a diplomatic/political solution/wording towards Moscow through laying out a path of the minimal mutually acceptable: A bomb by Daesh. (although everyone knows who DAESH/ISIS/ISIL really is…)

——–

The 3rd option would be the logical proceeding if there was a third party trying to drive a wedge between Russia and the West. This 3rd force could originate from the Deep State, Ind.Mil.Complex with global Multis as Serco or Thales e.g..

Graeme, I looked up this evil creature, having never seen her ‘product’ before and, yet again, was gob-smacked by the sheer viciousness of the Russophobic hatred and the sheer arrogant effrontery of the lies. The scum who infest the upper ranks of The Western elite grow more vile and dangerous by the day.

“In 2015, an Australian journalist, Helen Womack, who spent over 30 years reporting from Russia was denied accreditation after listing on a nationalist-operated “list of enemies of Russia” website and forced to leave the country”

Mulga, you have to make allowances here -she might be smarting a bit and consequently less than objective. Ha-ha!

I also find it curious that every russophobe, to a man and woman, be they Nuland, Freeland or Womack, say they love Russia.

What strikes me with the ‘Womacks’ of the world, is the sheer viciousness of the hate. The lies flow from that, arrogant, impertinent, repeated even when disproved. The depth and sheer depravity of the lies and hatred is even more marked here in regard to China. Last week there was a segment on the local ABC’s ‘Religion and Ethics Report’, that peddled the old Falun Gong (ie CIA)lies re. China’s organ transplant practises.
This tripe was last ventilated a year or so ago, with a vicious attack on the leading Chinese organ transplant surgeon, to whose defence local medical figures rushed, denouncing the propaganda. But now, they’re back, with the usual vile garbage portraying the Chinese as evil sub-humans, without ‘our attitude to human life’, or ‘any sense of shame’, according to one American ‘academic’ interviewed, and the familiar accusations of vivisection of victims, the proverbial ‘kitchen-sink’. The imbeciles are expected to believe that the evil Chinese only half-kill the executed prisoners, so that they are still alive as their organs are ripped from their bodies. And the ‘atrocities’ and roster of victims have now been extended to Uighurs and ‘Chinese Christians’, in a crude propaganda tactic that would be all too obvious with a population less brainwashed than that of the West. How this shite comes under the heading of ‘Religion’ or ‘Ethics’ is puzzling, but it’s par for the course as we are ruthlessly brainwashed in preparation for war.

Link worked fine for me; but what a bitter person this Womack is and what vile lies and spin she spews:

“the embarrassing matter of Malaysia Airlines flight MH17 seems to have been forgotten, as the Kremlin requires”

and

“Fresh in US President Barack Obama’s memory is the way Mr Putin “came to the rescue” in 2013 when Damascus crossed a US “red line” with its use of chemical weapons. Thanks to Russian diplomacy, the Assad regime was spared American punishment and continued to pursue its side of the deadly civil war”

Like so many of her vicious villainous, vile type, the lies are regurgitated even after they are refuted time after time. An evil liar whose career has been based on creating fear and hatred-the Western presstitute par excrescence.

After the last 500 years, the entire western infrastructure is geared and setup for imperialism. Kind of hard to see for anyone already in the system but very obvious to anyone outside and who are the targets.

The thing is, the very people who don’t believe in imperialism are the ones who support and enable it.

No one can tell me, the soldiers who create and make up strategy who do it to project their country cant see that attacking and killing people half way around the world cant see it. They use some high words.. But when you come down to it, they are no better than the slavers and robber barons of past. At least in the past these people were not using words to feel good about their actions. These days they use patriotism… But these are scum no matter what.. stealing from the poor to make masta rich.. no better than the organ stealers.. attacking the premier Chinese surgeon giving life while themselves taking lives by stealing the organs of the slaves. There is no pride and patriotism involved in blowing pregnant women up.. And ultimately this is what they call their greatest lives achievement.. and western civilization’s greatest moment.. In a few hundred years it sill be synonymous with the wedding party bomber.. go west young lovers.. don’t get married here or the west will get ya..

Looking at a picture of the creature, I thought it was the fragrant Masha Gessen. Have the two ever been photographed in a room together? The sheer vicious imbecility of the lies betray that psychotic hatred that has been a millennial feature of certain groups, now globally highly influential, and they project their hatred far and wide. Little pustules of infection, metastases from the central tumour. Her hate propaganda is certainly unhinged, and one wonders why it took thirty years to expel the hate-mongering creature from the country.

I wonder what the Russian government will do if it turns out it was ISIS, what will be their retaliation, they are already bombing ISIS. Perps they will send more troops or send more special forces and attempt to capture or kill ISIS higher-ups.

Russia is bombing both terrorists USA backs openly in the west and terrorists USA backs more covertly in the east(ISIS) one of the main areas of the Syrian offensive is to liberate the military airbase located in ISIS territory to the east.

I think they will intensify security for Russians abroad. And use intelligence and police action to go after ISIS in other countries. I’m surprised they were not already doing this in Egypt as its popular with Russian tourists. Thats a problem. However, ISIS could be getting help from its sponsors in carrying out this sort of attack. Thats a very big problem.

I don’t think this should change their Syria strategy. Its a horrible tragedy at a human level. But at a geopolitical level its not that big a deal.

“I’m surprised they were not already doing this in Egypt as its popular with Russian tourists [..]”

And that’s the problem I have with this whole story, and not for lack of sympathy to the victims and their grieving families, but why go to Egypt, for any reason whatsoever!?!?
With all that’s been happening for over a decade now in the Middle East, anybody choosing MENA as their holiday destination has to be completely out of his/her mind.
It was bad enough with what happened to MH17, but I doubt the passengers were informed they would be flying over a war-zone when they purchased their ticket. It’s a safe to assume they would have thought they would be flying over Europe and Russia mostly – all reasonably safe areas – and into Malaysia.

But Egypt?!? What’s their excuse? [And by “their” I don’t exclusively mean the victims on the downed Russian plane, I mean all the other idiots lined-up to fly into Egypt or any other MENA destination]
Point being; if you’re going to Egypt, you’re bound to fly over dodgy zones, not to mention Egypt itself is a dodgy country, why go there?
That’s like me saying: Hey, I’m going to Congo! Fantastic weather, delicious African food, exotic culture, awesome natural beauty, and yes… the machete wielding lunatics can be a drag… but hey! The flights are cheap! – (WTF?!?)

I’d looove to visit Egypt, I always wanted to since I was little, and not for their holiday resorts, but to visit the Pyramids, the Museum of Cairo where all the best ancient Egyptian treasures are displayed, the Valley of the Kings (etc). But as much as Egypt was my number one destination since, like, forever, you couldn’t pay me to go there. Not after the “Arab Spring”, and I wasn’t too keen on Mumbarak regime anyway either, not to mention they’re a Muslim nation and you have to follow certain rules which I can’t be bothered with, so no! I can’t go there, doesn’t matter how much I’d like to.
And yes, people should be able to chose where they wanna go and be safe, but that’s not the world we live in, I’m afraid.

So, what is possessing these people to visit these dodgy MENA countries? I’ll tell you what it is! For the most part (those who not going there for work, or to visit family)cheap holiday destinations! That’s what! Can’t they cough-up a bit more cash and go to nice safe countries like Spain, Southern France, Portugal (etc), if they sooooo must have a holiday!? Jeez!
Why turn yourself into cannon fodder, or easy targets, all because it’s cheap to go to certain places rather than others (?).

Oh! And another thing… it’s not like taking holidays abroad is mandatory! You can always choose to stay put, or travel domestically, if you so ‘must.’

I disagree with some things that you say, but certainly similar sentiment will go through many Russian people’s minds and they will no longer go to Egypt in such large numbers (wasn’t that the purpose of this attack by the US and UK anyway, to damage egypt as Russian ally?).
But I hope they will not choose Spain, Southern France or Portugal as alternatives (where all sorts of sh*t can happen to them because Russia has been demonised so much), but they go to Sochi, or Crimea. This will be the best for them and the best for the economy of Russia.
And, having been to Crimea myself last summer, I was very pleased to learn that Aeroflot and other Russian planes fly over Russia only – no flying over Ukraine thanks god!

“(wasn’t that the purpose of this attack by the US and UK anyway, to damage egypt as Russian ally?)”

I doubt Egypt is a Russian ally, specially not under Al-Sisi. They’re as trust worthy as the Turkish regime, I’m sorry to say.

“But I hope they will not choose Spain, Southern France or Portugal as alternatives (where all sorts of sh*t can happen to them because Russia has been demonized so much)”

While I don’t doubt Russia – and by extension the Russian people have been demonized by the utterly corrupt European media, the truth is that they do have a lot of popular support within the regular people (in some EU countries Putin himself is nothing short of a rock star, particularly after his intervention in Syria) well… maybe not in places like the Netherlands, Sweden or Finland, but that’s why I didn’t list them. Also, I did mention those Mediterranean countries because of their weather, they’re relatively warm all year around and not too far from Russia, which is probably the main reason for Russians to choose a holiday destination like Egypt. I could have suggested other safe, sunny places like the Caribbean, but one would think the flights alone are much more expensive purely for being far away.

“[..] but they go to Sochi, or Crimea. This will be the best for them and the best for the economy of Russia”

Absolutely! Crimea and Sochi should be number one destinations for Russians (and non-Russians alike, btw), it’ll keep them safe, they’re beautiful destinations on their own right and it’ll help boost Russian tourist industry. What’s not to like? :)

Why did they go to Egypt? They had their reasons and probably paid for their vacations well in advance. Anyway millions go every year, the vast vast vast majority return safe and sound. It’s a risk. But then we have had MH17 and the other Malaysian jet that disappeared. Plus 911 and all the rest of them.

And that was kind of my point. Why risk it? It is really worth it to play silly games with your life and your family’s life (if your traveling with loved ones, particularly minors who have no say in where their parents/custodians takes them without their consent).
Sure, millions go there and get back with no scares at all, but it only takes one ‘disaster’ or one ‘atrocity’ to put things into a rather dark perspective and then it puts an entire nation in mourning.
Not to mention; if this ‘accident’ is proven to be intentional rather than accidental, it’s bound to have huge geopolitical implications [of the WWIII kind].
So! At that point, potentially, you’re not only gambling with your own life or your loved ones lives, but an entire nation and/or nations’ fate.

And under no circumstances whatsoever I trying, nor even implying, to place the blame on the victims [that is a huge no-no on ethics], the blame will forever rest with the actual perpetrators [if proven not to be an accident] and their sponsors, and we all know where that trail leads to… [CIA-USA-Mossad-MI5/6 and the rest of them].

In any case – and I can’t remember how “popular” or “unpopular” this guy is around this specific corner of the internet – but he seems to agree with me. And before I get flamed, being a pessimist myself, I must say I don’t agree with his overall somber message. But! Pessimism – particularly in war times – is always preferable over unfounded optimism:

Dugin on Sinai crash: “These are victims of war just like those in Donbass”

“[..] Russia is in an acute phase of confrontation with the West. We are essentially fighting on several fronts at once. We are winning in some places, and in others we are suffering losses. The innocent people from the plane crash over Sinai are victims of war. Just like all those murdered in Donbass. These are our losses”

“[..] Maybe the Russian government would like to be relieved of the stress, but this is not in the interests of the US. For this reason alone, everything will only continue.

In connection with this, there is a question: does a level of awareness of the seriousness of these challenges exist? It’s clear that the people who flew to Egypt did not think so much about what is happening in the Middle East, Syria, and what happened in Cairo a few years ago. They died returning from vacation, but they were in fact on the front line. If our government doesn’t ban relaxing, then again and again, as if spellbound, we’ll be dragged there again until the next crash of a plane exploded by Islamists or another heartbreaking tragedy”

“I wonder what the Russian government will do if it turns out it was ISIS, what will be their retaliation, they are already bombing ISIS. Perps they will send more troops or send more special forces and attempt to capture or kill ISIS higher-ups.”

It’s quite possible that the purpose of the downing of the airliner (if that what it was indeed) was to draw Russia into sending boots on the ground in Syria. That was my first thought anyway.

B in Oz, thanks for the Bollyn link. Until the idea that hackers can take over an airliners navigation (if so, this capacity has to be systematically eliminated…ASAP!!! Who needs it??) is disproven Saker needs to add Bollyn’s hypothesis as possibility # 4. particularly as that hypothesis seems to uniquely account for the reported gyrations of the plane that may have destroyed it at high altitude.Particularly if no bomb explosive residues are found! Also could explain the pilot’s initial alarm, before things got catastrophically out of hand in first seconds of loss of control.

I don’t know, but if such a capability is real there are apparently numerous instances in recent years, 9-11 thru Sinai, and many in between, where this remote takeover of navigation must be suspected. Is it real??

A couple of quotes from the Bollyn site… in particular ‘victory without leaving fingerprints’

Carmi Gillon suggested that today a terror organization could take over a jet plane and “achieve something like 9-11” without fielding any flesh and blood attackers.
– Carmi Gillon, former head of Israel’s Shin Bet security service, “The double-edged sword of cyber warfare,” Times of Israel, June 24, 2015

“Cyberspace enables the attack of another nation state in offensive action, even reaching victory without leaving any fingerprints, even if it is suspected. We are already there; we are not talking about some distant future. We have experienced this in Israel’s day-to-day actions against its enemies.”
– Israel Defense Minister Moshe Ya’alon, Ibid., Times of Israel, June 24, 2015

Ted said: “”Until the idea that hackers can take over an airliners navigation … is disproven Saker needs to add Bollyn’s hypothesis as possibility #4. particularly as that hypothesis seems to uniquely account for the reported gyrations of the plane that may have destroyed it at high altitude. Particularly if no bomb explosive residues are found! Also could explain the pilot’s initial alarm, before things got catastrophically out of hand in first seconds of loss of control.”

Right. The Saker and everyone else may care to look at the graphic in Bollyn’s article entitled “Metrojet flight 7K9268 – raw data from Flightradar24.com”, which shows that “The radical changes in the plane’s vertical speed (i.e. diving and climbing in feet per minute) may have caused the plane to break up at a high altitude.” Bollyn is suggesting that drone technology was used to hijack the Metrojet flight. “The Russian aircraft reportedly broke up in flight. This break-up may have occurred as a result of the extreme forces the plane was subjected to as it went through radical dives and climbs in the last thirty seconds before it disappeared from radar.” The data in the graphic is derived from (or confirmed by) the data given at Flightradar24.com’s page at http://www.flightradar24.com/blog/crash-of-metrojet-flight-7k9268/

Which entity in the vicinity of the Metrojet flight is likely to have the technology to have enabled it to electronically hijack that plane, cause it to go through “radical dives and climbs” way past what the plane was designed to handle, resulting in the plane breaking up and falling to the ground?

R. Roth posits the same scenario for the planes in 911: the planes were taken over by a system installed years earlier that allowed ground based personnel to control all systems on the planes, including the plane-to-ground as well as the internal system.

I have read both her books: “Methodical Delusion” and “Methodical Deception.” They are novelizations of her research. (www.methodicaldeception.com) R. Roth is the first person with genuine credentials and experience to address the whole issue of what happened to the planes and passengers. She has persuaded me that the planes and passengers were diverted to Westover Air Base in Massachusetts and the calls from passengers that could not have been made from the planes in 2001 were made after the planes were on the ground in hangers at that air base.

Those videos are excellent. Her research led me toinvestigate the Gelatin.net website. It is a Mossad front full of homosexual Zionist psychopath “artists” it is currently holding an exhibition in London. The real proof however is that the men who planted the explosives were part of the E-team (Emergency Team) and the sick ***** even have a current Netflix show detailing their false flag activities in Syria right now!!! GUESS WHO IS A CURRENT MEMBER OF THE E-TEAM…JAMES FOLEY THE FAKE BEHEADED MOSSAD AGENT…PROOF IS HERE: http://www.eteamfilm.com/#!contact/c16fm

The E-team is literally a multi decade front for Mossad and its Zionist Austrian members in 2001 were the psychos that physically planted the nano thermite in the towers. Their names are a matter of public record…they ever advertise their abilities to the world security services via this front “art” group

James Foley is a current member of the E-team Mossad cell that planted the explosives on 9/11…The gelatin.net hit squad and the E-team are currently still active murdering for Israel…The sick paedophiles still advertise their work and even have a new Netflix show!

Since the system exists, you can be sure that UNIT 8200 has all the details (passed to them – no questions asked – by the NSA).

http://www.bollyn.com/home/#article_15282 reports that
“UNIT 8200 – Israel’s main satellite signal intelligence facility – is located on Kibbutz Urim, less than 60 miles NNE of the location where the Russian plane went down. UNIT 8200, an institution of computer hackers, is the largest branch of the IDF and is responsible for the military’s offensive cyber capabilities.”

I highly doubt Israel had anything to do with this or 911, Israel sent some information on 911 which the us decided to ignore and they sent people to follow up, the students interviewing people and the ones filming.. Since that was an inside job, Cheney and gang had to discredit any Israeli narrative. Israel is in an existential threat mode, they would never piss off a super power. They are good at blackmailing the US but not Russia. They did try but Putin called their bluff about arming Ukraine and Georgia. They have also come out and said they have no comment on the political process in Syria, it is none of their business. They can threaten UK, france, Germany, iran etc.. But countries like china, Russia, india etc they have never threatened. Anyone really think something that could wipe them off the map for real will even be considered? Anyone seen Israeli tv shows? They do quite a few good ones, compared to American shows, the reality is striking. They do try to show iran as a bad guy, but they never try to make iran as a super villain, just another villain. What I mean to say is, they are reality bound, they take risk/reward into every action. They are not going on hubris, they know they are no match for any real army no matter how good they are. If they alienate Russia, they also throw away china, india, brazil and south Africa in just one shot. Also their chance in the EEU.

Now could a stray missile have done it? If so I would have expected them to have contacted the Russians and accepted responsibility. It would cost them, but that is money and reputation but it would not be existential.. Just imagine, Russia secretly arming Hezbollah.. With latest TGM and Manpads.. The new ones can hit 8-10KM unlike the old ones of 4-5KM.. The new ATGM can take out any modern tank, the active system is only good for 1 in 4 chances.. So even with their tech advances they are looking at going against hamas with a 80% chance of getting blasted.. Not good odds.. Seems Syrian airforce is getting A2A missiles in case Russia has to leave Syria.. Syria is getting S300 and greyhounds.. Israel seems to be locked out of Syria already.. Imagine if Syria can hit all of Israel and lock down Israeli air space.. Anyone really think someone would do anything where they would be defeated even with out war? The risk/reward is so huge that even the business loss of not having Russian companies sell Israel gas from the stolen territories would end up costing trillions.. In every way, Israel has more to lose here than everyone else combined.. It would be the end of the state.. And no one would even need to fire a single shot to do it.

IF Israel was going to do anything, they would have done it to some small European country and blamed iran.. Or taken out an Iranian airline.. I doubt Israel would do any thing where its existence would be in danger… nutyahoo yells and screams and practices bitch slapping everyone.. but real actions??

The members of E-team and Gelitin “art” groups and their B-thing demolished those towers with the consent of senior US Continuity of Goverment officials within the Pentagram and the CIA, NSA etc. Zionist traitors positioned within all the FIVE EYES and Saudi Arabia and Pakistan consented to this murder for the promise of arms sales, stolen resources and protection of the petrodollar system. But they were all betrayed as the Zionists merely used the Goyim debtslaves to expand their territory for a GREATER ISRAEL whilst continuing to infiltrate their next host victim China…but the Goyim will not sleep forever and I SEE FEAR IN THE FIVE EYES…:)

Good analysis; I’d knock out (B) and add a distant fourth possibility – there are one or two belly tanks on an A-321 in the fuselage luggage/freight area just behind the root of the wings. An electrical spark could have ignited fuel vapour.

A small point but I believe the set altitude was for FL320 which it never reached -the 33,500 is almost certainly erroneous and caused by the shock wave/skewed airframe giving false ambient pressure on the static vents.

Those that have analysed the ADS-B packets (which is what flight tracker etc. use for height, position, speed on any aircraft) have noticed impossible information in the last ‘normal’ moments of flight before the plunge.

” There are three packets within three seconds reporting altitude 29750, 30975 and 33275, and clearly all of them can’t be right. The aircraft was at 30750 just prior to this time”

It is unknown if the crashed plane had auxiliary tanks. They are generally fitted for long haul apparently, but the wing and center tanks were more than sufficient for Egypt to Saint Petersburg.

Electrical fault in the fuel tank causing a spark? Possible, but petrol is far more flammable than jet fuel (kerosene) and petrol cars have electric fuel pumps and bare electrics on the fuel gauge resistor inside the tank.

In addition to belly tank fumes I am thinking more of fuel leakage and electrical sparking. It’s a very remote possibility but should not be discounted. If the rear pressure bulkhead blew out like the 747 in Japan it could take out the fuel lines to the APU and start a fire but even there an explosive fireball as seen in the video is only likely in a Hollwood movie. Assuming the video is real.
On Pprune there’s a lot of informed discussion about the APU and the rear pressure bulkhead.

Looking at the comments on Pprune, most seem to think there was a fuel fire on the ground. This is where I differ, as aerial shots and close up shots of the wing show virtually no ground fire. From the aerial shots, slight sooting of the ground can be seen in a couple of places behind the wing, but from the closeups, unburnt wreckage can be seen under the leading edge of the burnt wing.

I think what most people are missing – that type of windswept arid country has an oxidised surface, perhaps iron oxide that is very dark to black. Kick the surface and the true colour of the ground shows. It can be seen by the wheel tracks and also where debris has hit and disturbed the surface. I have lived and worked in that type of country.

So I am beginning from what I believe is the fact that there was no fuel in either of the wing tanks nor the the center tank/s when the wing section hit the ground. For both wing tanks to drain so quickly yet the complete wing remain intact is very odd.

There is the remote possibility of some sort of fuel explosion that was not deliberate, but given the political situation, the threats / warnings that have been given, the actors involved, if an explosion has caused the crash then it is very likely to have been deliberate.

This tragic event appears to be another Lockerbie incident. The Russian authorities will discover who was involved with the planning, funding, execution and the means of escape committed by the perpetrators of this heinous act. Russia will not let this stew in the pot of international intrigue. It will remain an active case until solved.

Who stood to gain from doing this and who had the means to do it? We should explore this while we wait for the “official’ Russian response.

Most if not all commentators seem to be conspicuously avoiding the other possibility that an attack could have been carried out, not by ISIS, but by another actor in the conflict – why is this explanation nowhere to be seen?

ISIS is just a brand name in which a number of states have shares.
I can’t see a fanatical, hairy, useful idiot sneaking into the airport to plant a bomb. More likely to be one of the brands owners, then the brand takes responsibility.

Peter-exactly. One of the doped-up liver-munchers-not likely. But a Special Forces expert? Absolutely! And they are, bit by bit, exposing their ‘inside knowledge’ like the bullies they are, as if daring Putin to ‘do something about it’, while their MSM scum spread lies and disinformation, as ever. I think we just entered the Final Countdown to WW3.

Which actor would that be? It is not Syria; put simply they have neither the motive, nor the resources to do so. It is not the government of Egypt, because they need all the (declining) tourist income they can get, and they certainly cannot afford to be caught red-handed committing an act of war against Moscow. If you believe that ISIS is a creation of NATO+Israel+Saudi Arabia, that would suggest it is either the jihadis themselves, or the individual espionage agencies of each NATO country, Saudi Arabia, and Mossad.

Dick Lenning, Turkey. Egypt charges that Turkish intell is behind the ISIS, et al attacks in Sinai. They arrested an 18-member group of Turks, headed by a colonel in MIT + at least 4 other intell guys.

Does anybody know for sure whether Israel’s international air drill really ended on Oct 29? We haven’t considered air-to-air. Seems to me the US is awfully anxious to make us think it was a bomb. If they have a satellite photo showing a “flash”, why not provide it?

I completelly agree with that statements. I know there were some drills in that region at that time. And find very suspicious that the anglozionists jumped to clumpsy conclusions in such a hurry. Preparing the MSM bed of lies??

Been looking trohught the comments for the one possibility that Saker seemed to have missed and that is air-to-air. So you may have a realisitc option.

With all the satellite surveilance of the area, an air launched missile may be foolhardy, but with stealth technology, what then? And who has stealth technology? Why those apple pie eaters and no doubt in my mind that they would gladly share it with their Middle East allies, especially Israel.

For a number of factors such as poor maintenance, counterfeit parts, chasing the bottom line especially for cut-price airlines and harmonic aeroelastic oscillation leading to an aircraft breaking up in mid-air this below makes for interesting reading.

I am not suggesting any of these factors are relevant today or to Flight 9268 nor am I pushing sensationalist FUD. This all happened over 25 years ago -1989.

From an analysis viewpoint though it is indicative of the number of factors sometimes required for a catastrophe and the fact that removal of any one of them could often have negated the incident entirely.

In short, non-authentic bolts holding vertical stabilzer were not heat treated properly and had only 60% of the strength that they were supposed to have, one of the two generators required for legal flight could not be fixed and so the crew ran the APU (auxiliary power unit) that is normally only running on the ground and which, unknown to the pilots, had a broken mount. The vibration foced the rudder over giving aerodynamic forces that broke the plane apart:

Valid points made there. It is quite possible for the integrity of the HS or even the VS to made been compromised, or the very least weakened. Any accident investigator worth his or her salt will look at every aspect with a process of elimination. What is difficult to understand from open sources is the unequal in flight burning of parts of the aircraft, with one engine remaining untouched and the other totally burnt.

It is not beyond the realm of possibility of a series of chain events taking place, that we know took place very suddenly. Having done a little time on airframes work, a long time ago, repairing damaged historical aircraft, it is nevertheless interesting to compare.

“Thank you for your words of condolence. No one person whom I know suffered. Our computer manager had returned from Egypt just a few days before the catastrophe. I was surprised to his fearlessness to have vacation in Egypt. Russians often do not care much about risks to their life. Many have traveled to Egypt, although in my view this was always a risky place. I mean the terrible catastrophes with tourist buses that had happened many times on Egyptian roads.

I suspected from the very beginning that the A-321 catastrophe was a response of the ISIS terrorists on the Russian campaign in Syria. If the Egyptian officials now confirm that this was a bomb, then it seems to be true, because they initially preferred alternative versions not deteriorating the reputation of Egypt as a resort for Russians.

I agree that this terrible crime has many dimensions. On the one hand, I am afraid that the terrorist attacks on Russian planes may continue. On the other hand, this is the sign that Russian military actions in Syria are really very effective and painful for the terrorists. ”

Anent the last comment, can one infer that Russian attacks have been much more effective than American ones, hence, revenge on Russians? Or, perhaps it is an opportunistic crime, and there are no American airliners flying over the Sinai.

The ISIS “did it alone” theory seems weak to me. If retribution for Russia attacking the terrorists in Syria was the objective, why hasn’t the U.S. suffered the same fate since they have returned to combat ISIL, etc. in Iraq? The Benghazi Libyan attack in 2012 targeted embassy personnel and CIA assets not innocent civilians.

I’m more inclined to believe a nation State provided the intelligence, plan and money behind the murders of those Russian tourists. The question is; who was it?

Yeah, I agree. This IS did it without help theorizing strikes me as disinformation intended to point the fingers away from the zionazis/nazis. If the plane was attacked, it’s obvious it was a state entity behind it. And that means Isreal-America ultimately.

From my reading on the aviation forum, the plane was on the ground for twelve hours in Egypt.
From a contributor who had spent time as ground crew, there is very little security on catering and dunny cart at any airport let alone Egypt.
Apparently most security goes into checking passengers.

Daash is 100% Made by the USA, with assistance from its stooges, so any way you look at it the ultimate responsibility is with Mordor-on-the-Potomac. There is no need for a suicide bomber at all, just a parcel put on the plane. Air Cubana Flight 455 comes immediately to mind as a precedent.

“perhaps it is an opportunistic crime, and there are no American airliners flying over the Sinai”

Katherine, I think that revenge on Russia is part of the motivation, and also revenge on Egypt, which, as someone said here, is a shaky ally of Russia, and thus may look like beeing an easy target for shaking completely out of this alliance with the economic damage The Saker attested to this operation, adding that he does not understand its aim… However, I am convinced that strategic damaging of the self-esteem and the exterior image of the attacked is much more important: if you can demoralize your enemy and its allies much earlier, he falls into your greedy hands without your needing to combat him – as proved in WW3 (RU counting) in 1989.
This is what I think about this series of Smolensk – Grabovo – Sinai, and the sly MAK lies re Smolensk may turn out to not just have been “a fast one on Joey” ((c) Eric Berne) but “c’est pire qu’un crime, c’est une faute” ((c) Putin’s colleague, Joseph Fouché) – Russia’s credibility did not suffer then, in 2010, but may now: “You cant’t trust their aircraft crash investigations”.

I am much interested in what your professional contact in Moscow thinks about Elena R** (born 1980-11-01) having been a passenger of this plane, and what her being killed among others may mean in the strategic-psychologic-esoteric sphere where the questions of overall victory or defeat seem to be processed and decided. I found her name in the complete passenger list as published on http://www.gazeta.ru/social/2015/10/31/7863983.shtml#, and I assume that an american airliner whithout this passenger on board would have encountered no problems, even when flying over Sinai for Brisco Travel.

forgotten in my comment which “awaits moderation”: Elena R*** on board may have been of enough symbolical (“magical”) value to destroy the whole plane for her, but other bits work in the same direction – e.g. that the A321 in question made his first flight on 1997-5-9: destroying R*** and and a child of Victory Day with one stroke…

One of Orwell’s major points is how the basic tools of human communication (language) are weakened by Totalitarian Oligarchs, through their media and means of mis-education/brainwashing.

*A need for correct translation is evident.*

1. ISIS and the other Mid-East and South-East European Terrorist Groups are not just some loose floating ethnic groups of unhappy dislocated Arabs, perhaps under the influence and employ of the Imperialist powers, but………..

These terrorist Groups ARE the Jewish and Americans Financial Oligarch Elite, with some help from the English and the French and the Turkish and other junior partners. They are them. They are they. With a few Arabs and Muslims thrown in to flavor/season the terrorist mix. They are nothing else, but……….

2. A Global World War is being waged – between those still capable of loving, and those already spiritually dead. The war is not quite Nuclear, yet, although it is getting more vicious by the day. The parameters of hope are limited by whether or not the sheeple in the imperialist nations become Citizens and come over from the Dark Side – and, like Mighty Mouse, save the day.

Are You Listening?

I don’t expect you Democrat gang members and others who have given up all hope and worship at the bar of the Zionist American Bought Congress and one dimension approved 2 gang electoral circus of dems and repubs, to agree with this Anarchist. That is fine. But, Are You Listening/Reading? Do you realize what your leaders have done? [I believe Vladimir Putin just asked that question.]

The Russians, Syrians, Palestinians, Lebanese, Iraqis, Iranians, Yeminis, even Ron Paul, and a few other Americans, are doing their best. They are in a war! We are in a War! What the Hell do you think is going on out there?

On the other side of the planet, the Chinese military and the American military are making armed passes at each other in the Pacific, as Heavily Radiated Water continues to be flushed from Fukushima – toward California. Do you think only Anarchists can make this stuff up?

**On a lighter note, and to put things in perspective, which is the point of this missive. The people officially in charge of the Kiev Junta are no more incompetent, cruel, or corrupt, (actually substantially less so), than the Zionist owned Congress in DC. And Poroshenko, unlike Obomber, is not a Hollywood actor, and is not responsible for fronting for even 1% of the imperialist murders that Obomber has fronted for.**

“The Horror The Horror” We must work/fight to end the horror. But to end it, we must understand its true dimensions, and take off those rose colored glasses.

Considering this is a Western created site by an ex pat and every one here speaks English, Yes We are all listening. And this communication in the age of the internet they cannot stop so far. And thanks to Saker. it is going around the world in so many languages. I have hive like experiences often where the words I am reading seem to be coming out of my own mouth. Not bad Cross Talk the other day a few of them seem to be getting it also.
Yours,
RR

Some still ask, who they should vote for (of the media approved slate of Zionist bought traitor candidates). They have no concept of, let alone desire to face the truth, confront the controlling Terrorist Oligarchs, and restore the Republic.

Saving their Nation and the world appears to them to be such an impossible task, that they surrender in advance. Many mask their surrender with cynicism and feigned ignorance and endlessly repeated questions. Or, they pretend courage; “oh Sanders sounds interesting” “Trump tells it like it is” “Obomber does his best, but they just won’t listen to that kind decent man.” Add your special BS here……

Meanwhile, nation after nation burns. The Mid-East is being depopulated (as was Jericho), for the rebirth of the Greater Judah.

Americans still won’t publicly admit what occurred on November 22, 1963. The rest of the peoples of the world also hesitate to mention that date. [Why is that?]

RR, that’s funny that you are offended by the term ‘sheeple’…Paul Criag Roberts – do you know him ? He’s a really good writer on the topics we discuss here….he uses that term all the time, and so we all do too…many of his fans also read Saker.

I guess it was shocking to me too, when I first heard it…I got offended because of the abuse of the idea of poor sheep….

Paul Craig Robert’s Here is what he says..oh yes it’s terrible…and nothing we can do about it. Where is the political upshot of his analysis. NONE DEFEAT! Every article of his your read he tell you you are beat!
RR

It does seem a demeaning term.But that’s because its meant to be.Its really pathetic that so many people (hopefully with functioning brains,and at least some native commonsense) would continually let themselves be fooled by the government and media lies.In the Soviet Union the majority of people were able to recognize overloads of propaganda over the years.If they could,what is our excuse.My only qualm with the “sheeple” term is that it is used constantly.It should be varied with,fools,idiots,saps,etc.I think people using that term want to be as “pc” as possible.But it gets boring seeing the same term over and over.And doesn’t really portray the depth of disgust with their behavior it should (that’s my two cents).

I think it is part of a strategy of tension introduced by limited hangouts like inforwars. Keep degrading your self folks. I will make it that much easier to round you up and put you in the oven.
Cheers,
RR

1. Sheeple is not actually a term of “class” bigotry. Sheeple denotes no particular “class,” working class, petite bourgeois, ruling class, capitalist, or feudal, or any other class.

I could vary my choice of descriptions in the future. I have used “rubes” on more than one occasion, but could also interspace with the suggested “fools,idiots,saps,” as necessary.

2. On a more serious note: concerning the recent Horrific Cartoon celebrating the Zionist/American/ISIS destruction of the Russian civilian airliner in Egypt, (the cartoon was designed at the Zionist Center for the Arts in Washington DC, and placed in their-terrorist magazine, “Charlie Hebdo”).

Je ne suis pas Charlie.

* I hope for more comment from The Saker, who understood these Charlie Hebdo scum, from the first.

Look, people, ordinary people can be misled. Many of the same good Russian people who now support Putin so wholeheartedly (and are proven correct in doing so) thought that America’s ‘help’ during the change from the USSR was a wonderful thing – if I had been Russian I might have thought so too. But it wasn’t. And for many the rot that has infected the US government has been such a slow happening, their memories of better times so clear – they didn’t realize it could be possible.

We oldies are like the old Communists who can remember that the regime wasn’t all bad for them personally. We indeed participated in the downward spiral simply out of trust that our leadership meant what it was saying. All of the world, Russia included, did so also. The US had built up a peacetime image that benefited my and my parents’ generations. That started to erode with the multiple leadership assassinations and Vietnam. I often think many of America’s potential leaders perished then, along with so many victimized in South Asia. And all who seemingly survived were maimed by those experiences.

Calling us sheeple may make you feel virtuous but you are simply blaming the victims. We are not the ones who lied; we are the ones who were lied to. There are a few who still refuse to see, but their numbers are diminishing. How can one choose leadership in a country where those who can run for office are already corrupt, weak, subject to unknown dangers no sane person would wish to face? It’s really, really hard. The person has to have that core of integrity that reinforces his words by his deeds. And be self-sacrificingly brave to boot. Not many of such around, especially these days.

The loss of trust has been a gradual process because once there were people, ordinary people with faults aplenty, who faced the dangers and ran the political gantlet having to make compromises we can all criticize – and we were lucky to manage to elect the right ones, as Russians did with Putin – or we took what we thought was a new path that turned out to be a worse one, as US citizens did with Obama. We are all the same people, the same human race. We want to choose well.

You (the sheeple) are not “the victims” (as you call yourself). The victims are the Vietnamese – 2 million dead, the Indonesians – 1 million dead, the Guatemalans – 100,000 dead, the Palestinians, no Homeland, the Syrians, the Libyans, the Iraqis, 1 million dead, the Afghanis, the Novorossyans, the Yemenis, the Serbians, and a dozen other nations. The Sheeple are not the victims, they are the sheeple, the rubes, the fools, idiots, saps, and a few other names I can think of, but they are definitely Not the victims. Now, the Kennedys, ML King, Malcolm X, Lennon, and you’re getting warm.

The $64,000 Question is:

Now that you know, what will you do?

“To be or not to be, – that is the question:” Shakespeare

*It is not a question of “want to choose well” (as you express it). In other words, expecting others to magically appear, perfectly, morally formed, ready to storm the barricades and do battle for you. That approach will always allow excuses. Well, Obomber “promised” “looked good” “was black” “had a nice smile” “was a democrat,” & much the same for the other professional wrestlers.

I was not making excuses, nor was I expecting others to storm the barricades. I will say that we agree on some of the heroes, Mr. Antonsen, and I will not call you a sheeple for putting John Lennon in that mix, even though I don’t consider he belongs in the leadership class. I love his beautiful music and I’m sorry he died.

The point I was making was that it serves no purpose to insult ordinary people whose lives you cannot begin to imagine. It’s a bit like claiming percentages of casualties in war – they are all horrific. I can imagine one such death and be in mourning – that is human nature. I am using your big word IMAGINE. I don’t think you do Mr. Lennon credit. The imagining you are doing is the opposite of the imagining he did.

The unpeopled might not have much say in things, but you cant say they dont try.. If 10% of germans can take a broken down bankrupt country on the verge of collapse into the terror that scared the most powerful empire in the world.. It shows what a small number of people can achieve when they put their mind to it, A victim will always remain a victim until he decides to change the situation. It is hard, very very hard.. Going along with injustice makes you a sheepie…

The sheepie are not victims, they live the high life.. And as long as they get their iphones, the suffering of others are not their concern.. When it does become their concern and they decide to do something, then they become the victims.

Peter, how do you know the filthy Charlie Hebdo cartoon was created elsewhere? I don’t doubt it, because the sheer, vicious, hatred behind it, and the utter lack of human empathy and compassion is a trademark of fundamentalist Judaism.If the plane had been El Al full of Israeli Jews, you would not see this sort of ‘cartoon’, you can be sure of that. And if it did, anywhere, there would be a firestorm of rage and abuse from the Sabbat Goyim, and ‘Freedom of Opinion’ would disappear in a trice.

I believe that Rag “Charlie Hebdo,” is prepared elsewhere, (at least its major political content is decided upon by the Zionist/American Oligarchs – as it is for almost all of the mainstream media). For absolute proof, I would need the investigative infrastructure of a major, or at least medium size, world power (nation). Then I could follow the $paychecks, phone & email instructions, and other day to day operational patterns of the rag.

Certainly, it would be a surprise if the immoral wrecks who prepare the rag were permitted to make the major political statements (such as that cartoon epitomized), all by themselves.

We mere mortals make our best judgements, concerning the deeds of others, by relying on clues they provide, and their (repeated) operational patterns. It is rare when they let slip clear evidence of their crimes. Although their cartoons leave little doubt as to their heartless, bloodthirsty inhumanity, and their complete lack of any sense of (actual) humor.

Peter, I see. No absolute proof but an informed surmise, with which I have to concur. I was just listening to the radio today as I planted some trees and vainly weeded, and there was yet another story about some poor Jew who had had their precious art-work stolen, by the Nazis, and-can you believe it- it’s going to be turned into a movie! That’s getting to be a crowded genre, very quickly. Then a story on Iraqi music, but, who would have thought it- it was all composed by Jews. Much wailing and lamentation about the the Iraqi Jews that cannot visit Baghdad any more (none concerning the two million dead Iraqi goyim murdered since 1990, of course)and-happy days- it’s a movie already.
Not that I would recommend that real Jewish suffering be as ignored as, say, Roma suffering, Soviet or Chinese suffering during WW2, or even Palestinian suffering (a slightly different case as they are generally portrayed as roundly deserving their suffering)is, but the way it is drummed into our heads, day in day out, as if the Jews were some sort of Chosen People whose affairs matter more than those of any other people, is really annoying. That you are not allowed to notice this queer situation, let alone mention it, in polite society, however, is very, very, off-putting. I hate to say something so ‘antisemitic’ but I actually think Jews are just like the rest of us, and their human worth is not one jot more or less than any other human being.

There is a 4th possible cause – that is no longer in the realm of science fiction:
d. New technology ‘energy’ type weaponry.

There are also ‘conspiracy theorist’ reports of military exercises between US-Israel on the border.
Whilst I cannot confirm that, it most certainly fits a now recognisable pattern, and would be a first stop investigation.

Tin foil hat nutter you may label me – but AngloZio MSM push, push, pushing the “bomb on board” narrative makes it the LEAST likely imo.
And this was most likely a technology demonstration message to Russia … fulfilling the proxy force “IS” promise a convenient cover, and punishing Egypt’s disobedience in joining the ‘wrong’ alliance.

According to the sleuthing done by Rebekah Roth in her 0911 investigations, all those underwear – shoe etc hijack- bombers coincidently had the same airport security agency.
I see the Anglo press are making far more noise about Sharm el Sheik airport security than was ever aired on 0911.
I remain a cynic on any narrative pushed by the Anglo’s.

” I traveled through Russia two months back. In Moscow SVO, the check-in counter personnel asked a man if the passport of every passenger is OK for check in. he scanned the passport into his notebook computer and physically checked verified it and then gave OK.

I asked who is this person. Answer: He is the airlines security. I asked about his badge. I was told that he works for a Russian security company. I said his accent is not Russian. He works for a Russian company that is a branch of a European company. I said he does not look or talks like a European. He is an Israeli who works for a Russian Security company which is a branch of a European company with headquarters in Israel. I said, yes, that makes sense because Israelis provide best security.

They agreed and told me that the passenger document scans, body searches, luggage searches, food security, airplane cleaning, garbage collection, and airplane and airport security are all handled by Israeli company. In Moscow Vnukovo and in St. Petersburg and in Kazan and in Novosibirsk, Israelis provided all security.

I asked an airline executive why is that a big country like Russia can’t provide its own security? He explained that, if Russian airlines and airports do not use one of the approved security firms, the airplanes from Russia will be deemed unsafe and will not be allowed to travel to Europe/US. All the security companies in the list approved by FAA are Israeli owned.

Then I noticed all airports all around the world, including Asia, Middle East (even Dubai and Mecca where Israeli citizens are not allowed to enter the country), Egypt, and China use local Security companies, which are branches of European/American companies with headquarters in Israel. (Iran and North Korea are exceptions. But they don’t fly outside.)

US is forcing them to use Israeli companies or be banned from Europe and US. Israeli companies decide who gets on an airplane and what bags/items are loaded onto the plane, anywhere in this world. If any bombs explode on any airplane anywhere, you know who placed it there.”

” Russia used to fly Russian made TU planes. But now all Russian companies have ditched TU planes and use Boeing or Airbus.

I asked the question to a charter company CEO. I was told that if they did not use an aircraft from an approved manufacturer, that airplane and the airplanes from that company will be deemed unsafe and will not be allowed to enter Europen/US airspace.

The FAA approved aircrafts are Boeing and Airbus. When Russia built their Sukhoi Superjet, they used American engines and controls. The Chinese airplanes are fitted with American engines as well. Still they are not approved for European / US airspace.

So, everybody in the world has to use Boeing/Airbus.

Boeing and Airbus aircraft need to be regularly serviced by their personnel in their own shops. These facilities are invariably Israeli owned. There are no facilities in Russia to service Boeing or Airbus.

CIA/Mossad can fit any of these aircraft with whatever they want, including remote controls and spying equipment, during scheduled maintenance. So, if you see an Airbus or Boeing disappear or go straight down, don’t be surprised.”

It’s actually Stage III noise regulations that shut out the Russian made Tu-154 airliners from European and American airports, not safety. The Tu-154s were perfectly good planes otherwise, fast and able to land on gravel runways like typical Russian planes. The Sukhoi superjets have passed Stage III and a few of them are making commercial flights to European destinations. Seating capacity is at most less than 100 passengers, though, which takes them out of the jumbo jet long haul markets.

” In the olden days, every country used to print their own passports. They all looked different. Then US required all countries to make their passports using American/Israeli equipment, if they want their citizens to be allowed into US/Europe.

Now passports of every country in the world look identical except for the wordings and color. These passport equipments have backdoors and code to transmit information on all passports printed on it, to a website in Israel. They have to be regularly serviced by manufacturer. All the passport info may be retained inside for retrieval by service personnel. “

Migrants are using documents stolen from Syrian refugees, identity cards manufactured to order or simply papers borrowed from friends and relatives to support their asylum application, Mr Aehnlich, of the Lower Saxony Criminal Forensic Institute has revealed.
This means applications for refugee status have been allowed to proceed because the authorities cannot prove they are fake.
He told MailOnline: ‘Some of the passports contain the false personal information in fake documents, some passports contain genuine personal information in fake documents and some passports contain genuine personal information in genuine documents. But we cannot prove which ones are genuine and which are false.’
Once in Europe they can set up sleeper cells or live freely under a new identity without facing the consequences of their brutal past actions.
As the forger chillingly put it: ‘ISIS fighters are among the people going to Europe in this way. They are going to wait for the right time to become a fighter for ISIS again.’
Following an analysis of the fake Syrian passport police forgery expert Joerg Aehnlich confirmed: ‘This is genuine, this is a real Syrian passport.’
The passport book MailOnline acquired is authentic, made from a batch seized from one of the many Syrian government offices captured by advancing opposition forces.
Mr Aehnlich is one of just a handful of forgery experts in Germany that are called upon to provide expert opinions on documents in contested asylum application cases.
But he, and others like him, have been inundated with work since the migration crisis exploded in Europe this year.Forgers buy ‘empty’ passports without pictures or information from government officials, or from fighters who seize them from government offices.
Syrian passports do not have modern security features such as biometric chips, making them easier to forge.
Fake passports have been sold for as little as $700 in Syrian opposition held town of Azaz in September

Laser weapons have been demonstrated years ago, tested recently and are scheduled to be added officially to the american army. And if i am not mistaken, laser air and tank defence is already part of Israels army, or has been prototyped.

A stealth jet with a one-shot laser could quite realistically cut the tail of an airliner, maybe even from decent distance. No science fiction involved.

I don’t know what the current state of development is — undoubtedly secret — but a possibility is a kinetic energy weapon: a piece of metal (or something) shot at extreme high speed, maybe from a rail gun. A thing like that cold take down a commercial plane without much of a heat trail. Like being hit with a slow moving meteor, probably. It could also cause an explosive impact. Aiming would be computer controlled, of course.

Hard to tell what new stuff is being worked on or at a stage where it could be tried.

The only way to find out about these things is do a good investigation from the physical evidence — and see if there could be anything close enough to fire on the plane.

Kolgalymavia: I Agree with you Saker, although my military Guru says that the tail could have disintegrated in a way that could have caused the fuel to explode so he is with- holding judgement on the cause of the accident ( evidently a Japanese airliner with a similar history disintegrated completely mid air several years ago when the tail dropped off–no explosion though in that case). But he did find it interesting from a psych media war perspective that US satellite photos were so readily available so quickly unlike for MH17. And that the UK has stranded many of its citizens in Egypt in an over dramatic show of concern. He feels that this is an attempt , feeble and uncomprehending of the nature of the Russian people, to demoralize the citizenry of Russia. Remember Ashton Carter did talk about “body bags” due to Russian intervention in Syria?

He says they do not understand the Russian’s acceptance that war entails casualties and that the intervention in Syria is war, not a play date. And they will know where to put the blame for the body bags if it comes to that.

As for my non political friends–one of them said, bomb? Oh, was it the CIA? This is a result of too many Hollywood movies, but then, sadly, people in high places seem to act like they are following one.

So, the missile option has to include air to air missiles, which eliminates difficulties with manpad range, getting in position, and lack of visible smoke trail. It also eliminates consideration of US claims satellite surveillance saw a heat flash but ruled out a missile, since whose missile would it have been, do you think? Possibly that PR release may have been entirely to insert the ‘not a missile’ claim in the news stream. That ‘ISIS’ apparently managed to video the plane’s high altitude destruction further suggests US-Iraeli planning. Since ISIS is a CIA-Mossad creation as convenient enemy, and would have received instructions on time and place to video from their masters.

Point being that air to air missiles are generally fairly small, as they are designed to disable fighter planes. The initial damage may have been localized enough for the plane to be somewhat controllable – until fire or progressive structural damage broke it apart. As for why no mayday, if it was an air to air missile then presumably those responsible could have imposed radio jamming as well. Or maybe the radio antennas/cables were damaged? Or just the flight crew too busy trying to fly a rapidly failing plane.

I think we can ignore all public statements about contents of the flight voice recorder. Russia won’t be signaling what it knows, until after it acts.

Structural damage on airbuses: on veteranstoday I found a link to a discussion of the danger of the airbuses’ backside being made entirely of plastic, especially when the connection between metal and plastic is, at the request of Airbus, to be only superficially controlled. Not so many airbuses broke up in the air until now as one might fear after reading this article:http://novororssiyaupdates.blogspot.com/2015/11/could-accident-of-flight-7k9268-have.html

If you check the MSM only the UK/US/CAN/AUSSIE/NZ are fast to say this is ‘probably’ a bomb.
Why are they so fast?Why are the other more prudent on this?
If they were innocent and not involved(via proxies probably)they would not act so fast and wait at least a bit.Not a single word from Israel…or Erdogan.
What do they(us-uk) think wrong again?That there will be a maidan in Moscow to ask Putin to stop the ops in Syria?
Is it is their view, it seems that they still have not learned anything about Russia and Russians.
Even after almost two years of ukraine action…

I don’t know about the others, but UKGOV have plenty of political problems at the moment – people are saying that it’s like the last days of Thatcher.

UKGOV’s seizing on this story is entirely predictable and standard news management here.

It’s possible that UKGOV could be involved in this one – they’re not a force for peace in the world – but the avalanch of Russia/Syria “news” suggests that these are just good days to release bad news.

This is very bad for the Egyptian economy. Isis is destroying tourist attractions in other parts of the ancient Near East, but they don’t dare demolish the Pyramids and Sphinx or Luxor or Karnak. They (or whoever) attack the tourists instead. Somebody wants to totally ruin the economies of these Middle East countries that rely so heavily on tourism. Talk about spreading chaos.

Good point.
Why do they destroy these architectural heritage sites?
A people’s—and the world’s—sources of inspiration.
Liike destroying or poisoning a water source.
Is it supposed to be for some weird religious reason, as seemed to be the case with the Taliban’s destruction of the enormous (I think) Buddhist monumental statues?

Or is it just viciousness?

Good point is that the tourist economy and intellectual and scholarly community, too, who study these treasures (and they do intersect) is being attacked. .
Katherine

Is it possible that in a world getting more violent; America in particular, that the terrorists must do ever louder publicity stunts? Would this be implicit that they’re part a scheme to get more funding for the MIC?

How is that possible?
How can they be sure(RF,passengers,egyptian authorithies etc)that there will be no more attacks on these flights as well?Or why not on other flights(just to make some kind of diversion).
Normaly Daesh is ‘supposed’.. to be ‘officaly’ against the ‘West’ also?
It is true that the bombing from the so called’ western coalition’ are so ‘light’….no real danger.

Saker,
A bomb did cause the explosion aboard the aircraft. That we can be sure of but while ISIS is happy to take credit for it, NO! they did not do it. The sophistication required to perpertrate an act of this kind is not to be found in ISIS.
It is much more likely that Western/Israeli Intelligence did this and clandestinely furnished ISIS with the requisite material evidence so that they can say they can take claim.
You and I know full well that ISIS are just useful pawns. Something and Someone way far sinister is behind this crime. ISIS is being played for pasties on this one.
Putin must weigh this one very carefully because the findingds will have Global Implications….
Selah..

Good point.
Why do they destroy these architectural heritage sites?
A people’s—and the world’s—sources of inspiration.
Liike destroying or poisoning a water source.
Is it supposed to be for some weird religious reason, as seemed to be the case with the Taliban’s destruction of the enormous (I think) Buddhist monumental statues?

Or is it just viciousness?

Good point is that the tourist economy and intellectual and scholarly community, too, who study these treasures (and they do intersect) is being attacked. .
Katherine

In Islam and Judaism any depiction of God or other religious personage’s is thought of as Idolatry.The religious fanatics consider it a sin to have the old statues in existence.Most people in the World see those monuments as historic reminders of the ancient civilizations of the past.But not the fanatics, they want to “honor” God (Allah) by destroying them.The Spanish did that in the “Conquest of the America’s” with native American religious art.We saw the Taliban do the same in Afghanistan.And now the jihadis are doing that in the World’s “Cradle of Civilization”.And they are licking their lips hoping to do the same in Egypt to the ancient glories still left intact from the Age’s of the Pharaohs.If they and their Western backers get their way,only things like the “Golden Arches” of a McDonald’s will be considered as “historic reminders of our past”.

Which brings us to Iconoclasm – including the one in Christianity. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iconoclasm .
And if that movement one finds utterly silly, then so is religion itself. To be fair, these are only some of a myriad of ways for people to waste their valuable time, instead of trying to improve their living conditions.

And that land carrier in the ME has all the requisite skills. And given the fact that they have been grounded over Syria. This is right up there alley. I knew this was coming after I heard Nutenyahu at the UN. He had already been given stand down orders on Syria.
RR

Egypt will get more involved with Russia, not less. Security will be refined and strengthened. Tourism will get greater protection, particularly at this beachfront destination. Russian tourists will be favored by Egyptians because of the losses. Deeper friendships will result.

And Russia will get basing rights to help clear out the Sinai, and other parts of Egypt and then Libya.
This is a long war to eradicate ISIS and AQ and the Muslim Brotherhood terror factions.

Who has tried to hurt Egypt in the last 48 hours? The Western nations have reacted to cripple tourism.

20,000 Brits there, and they didn’t do squat about ISIS for over a year. Now, it’s Egypt’s problem.

And who did the West want to continue to run Egypt? The Muslim Brotherhood loons.

Egyptians know the score. They will be tight with Russia for decades to come.
Weapons, nuclear power, gas field development, tourism and trade. That’s the long future worth the long war.

I would like to know what you base that on…I argue that these increasing hostilities follow a historical pattern under the specific laws of motion of the laws of capitalist development…depression war depression war depression war….we are again at depression war. At least in 3 quarters’ of the globe…do you think this is going to magically stop in Fort Russia or China and that they won’t be attacked….Good Luck with your analysis. I think we have to stop them. Or Else and soon.
RR

The main target of this attack is Egypt not Russia, it’s convenient that the aircraft was Russian so two birds with one stone, but Egypt is the one that will suffer the consequences. This incident will further strengthen Egypt’s alliance with Russia.

I’ve spent an AF career in mil-aircraft R&D…little public understanding is known about airframe fatigue failure. It is deadly without rigorous lifetime inspections and repairs. A hard landing or tail drag take-off can easily start the process of later fatigue failure. Then at 30k ft a run-in with frequent “CAT” aka clear air turbulance and it becomes an all familar (non public) catistrophic disaster. No winners here: Egypt looks bad for security reasons (easily bribed) ; Russia looks bad for aircraft maintence & safety (not unusual). The findings will I’m afraid be highly politicised…watch carefully how the findings ( a year later) are worded. In the real and present world it will public opinion which will affect the geopolitics. Kj

Be mindful that the aircraft was owned by an Irish company, the Russian operators having leased it. The owners would have certainly made sure that “their property” was correctly looked after, so suggestions that “poor maintenance on behalf of the Russian operators” is the cause do not hold, especially since the aircraft was assessed by Airbus technicians as being of acceptable airworthiness prior to the lease being signed (as would be expected – the Russians would not be prepared to lease rubbish).

You will know that airframe surveys are done regularly, but periodically, and the most recent complete survey for this aircraft was not that long ago (i.e. well within the accepted 5-year interval). In view of repair history, areas where there could be dormant structural issues (i.e. post-repair issues) are subject to particularly stringent assessment (including dye penetration testing).

Not a “particularly old” or hard-worked aircraft either; from what I can gather, apart from the tail strike incident, there have been no other “major” incidents involving (or likely to affect) structural integrity during its operational life.

The most recent alternative news article I read theorises that Israeli and Jordanian spy agencies built the sophisticated bomb, smuggled an ISIS “special film crew” into Egyptian Sinai to plant the bomb, place them in the right spot to film, and then extracted them through the Red Sea back into Jordan.

Saker stated he is not sure what more Russia can do to punish ISIS, but I have also read that Putin is about to order Russian strategic bombers to drop thermobaric bombs on the ISIS capital of Raqqa. Would this actually provide any strategic value, or is it better to patiently and systematically allow the Syrian army/Iraq/Hezbollah/IRGC alliance to “re-conquer” ISIS?

This event if terrorist will steel national resolve even further. And it appears at this point all the West has are media wars and terrorist attacks….it has been 5 weeks….and there is a sea change afoot at least in Canada…a local radio show was saying how these early pronouncements appear to be politicized while stating how professional Russia and Egypt are carrying out the investigations. Adding how disrespectful it was of the relatives of the loved ones. I was astonished. This from the Niagara Region. The cracks in the cabal grow larger by the day.
Yours,
RR

In the mean time compare and contrast the way Russia and Egypt are handling this entire event compared to the crash in Ukraine. In Egypt the entire process will be legitimate. In Ukraine the entire process is illegitimate. None of the evidence in the Ukraine event would be admissible in a functioning court of law.
Yours,
RR

If this was a bomb placed on the plane in Egypt it would not be the first time this has happened. Arrow Air Flight 1285, a charter flight where most of the passengers, were members of the 101st Airborne Division, who were assigned as a peace-keeping force in the Sinai Peninsula, enforcing the Camp David accords of 1978. However, there may have had Special Forces on board coming back from an aborted hostage rescue attempt in Lebanon. Unlike Pan Am Flight 103, this story was buried with all the evidence.

I believe I saw an episode on Bill Kurtis Investigative reports about this, but now I cannot find any major sight that tells the story. The only story I can find on the web these days that questions http://www.rense.com/general69/gander.htm

Saker you made some predictions about how the war would be fought in the Ukraine….so much % military so much % information….how do the numbers look today? You do see these as same war don’t you? And what are your percentages today on how much info and how much military and where are we heading?
Yours,
RR

I feel so sad for the loss of life and the relatives and friends of those innocent people, I’m so sorry….
Re. the disaster…as said here a bomb would be easy, structural failure possible. But, for me, I wouldn’t have been going anywhere near the Middle East at the very least least since 2003 & I’m not Russian.
For the Russian Federation, seems to me there are only Iran, Syria & Hezbollah on side everyone else including Egypt is opposition. Commendable and necessary as it is to seek a diplomatic solution, the other side will have to suffer severe losses to submit….their minds are closed….and I can’t stand seeing all this from far away.
…So much death and destruction….for ideology in the sand….

How long would it take to make a fake video after news that plane had crashed.

Old video? ISIS found it in a matter of hours yet nobody else has found previous footage?

If the video is genuine, then judging by the angles, with the plane approx 10k altitude, the cameraman would be aprrox 10k behind and off to the left of the aircraft.

Checking this on google puts the approx area of the cameraman in some very rough country with several hours driving across numerous watercourses to the nearest collection of humpies that may have an internet connection.

” Egypt has promoted the airport chief at Sharm al-Sheikh days after a Russian plane that took off from the Red Sea resort crashed in a disaster that killed all aboard and was claimed by Islamist militants.”

The thing that has me doubting the bomb hypothesis is the fact that nobody has come out to claim that they have done it. The point of conducting terror attacks is to try and sow terror among the populace you oppose. Having people doubt whether or not this was a terror attack is a basic failure at completing the main objective of a terror attack. To cause terror.

Which leads me to my second point. if this truly was a bomb. Who did it? Daesh, Al Qaeda and other Wahabi groups stands a lot to gain in propaganda, funding and new recruits by coming out and claiming responsibility, yet they have not. The only people who would want to hide their responsibility when it comes to a terror attack, are those that stand to lose from it. That would mean national governments or the US supposed ‘allies’ in Syria.

These things, along with the fact that the US yet again makes claims that their intelligence has proof. But is yet again unwilling to share it to prove that their proof is real. They had more ‘proof’ to show that Iraq had WMDs than they have here or in Ukraine. And as we all found out, Iraqi WMDs were all a lie.
Of course the fact that the US has nothing to show may also mean that they do have proof and don’t wish to reveal how their intelligence gathering operates. Since it is easier to share forged files than real ones. But again, we should never ever base our decisions on someone’s word. Let alone someone that has been known to lie before.

Serving the interests of the empire I would say.The empire provides plenty of bribe money to the MSM in different countries.And they expect those countries media to obey.BTW ,the Netherlands was one of the countries that helped out the US the most in plotting the maidan in Ukraine.So don’t be surprised that Dutch media serves them too.

Lucius: As long as the Saker has not yet responded to your question I feel like suggesting to you that you may have become a victim of your own wording: “The point of … terror attacks is to … sow terror among the populace you oppose… the main objective (is) … to cause terror”. Yes, this is a tautology. But what about “reminder attacks” or “discourage attacks”? It is also not a universal law that such attacks are directed against the populace – in most classical cases the attacks were meant to make governments act (the palestinian terror in the 60s). IF the populace is the target, then terror is best spread by spreading terror and not those words that Elisabeth Hunover hates to the degree of forbidding them to their tribe: “No complaints, no explanations!” Every stupid american horror film shows that horror is created when unknown forces do terrible things for unknown reasons: “The killer tomatoes attacked us!” we are to understand only at the end.

Yes, this is something to remember: when the terrorists do not claim anything, they were a government, as in the case of MH17. But you can shut up completely and still post messages. It is sad to see how many brains are speculating about the hardware that destroyed the hardware of this A321, and how little is done to understand the software of these acts: what they are meant to achieve. The Metro Bombings which Russia under Putin is famous for (including this plane crash of a *Metro*jet) are to convince Putin and his voters that ‘the security specialist Putin is incompetent, he does not even understand his own profession’. Other details may be meant to tell other governments but *not* the populace who is so powerful that he can stage such events and never be punished for them – this is how I explain why the Smolensk crash and the MH17 crash were performed at jubilee dates of Hitler’s very probable daughter, “Merkel”, and were performed at the exact moment which would point to that personal date. With that either the nazi regime of “Merkel” or her handlers in angloamerica or both tell the world, first, that this stupid thing out of the FDJ and Stasi “is a world power one has to reckon with” (i.e. “shut up and comply!”, which the head of PO government of Poland, Tusk, understood very well and was nicely rewarded for, in public, by “Merkel” personally), and second, that hitlerism is not “reappearing” but is here for a long time already, and only thinks, it can now act openly again (which the german gov tells the other govs so that they all can inform their populace later), and third, that what hitlerism wants of everybody else (but governments in the first place) is to do again what hitlerism always does: start a world war against Russia, with all the lovely democracies of Europe taking part. Since Hitler started his war with the completely sufficient pretext of a faked terror murder attack (on Radio Gliwice), it had to suffice to start this next world war (with everybody joining in) by nearly the same kind of person (daddy’s daughter in daddy’s office) in the same fashion: a staged faked mass murder in the world war rhythm of “every 25 years”, thus after 1939, 1964, 1989 in 2014. Most of the MH17 “victims” were stinking corpses *because of the message*: we want war, and a lie must be again enough for you, populace. Since something misfired (the internet and nasty blogs may have used their secret power), we (the governments of the world and their unimportant populaces) are now to wait, in terror, stoicism or agony, for “Merkel”s next jubilee on 2015-11-22 (10 years bundesführer) for a final jump start of WW3(4 for the Russians). The governments have been informed by these open exercises, but those who are not accustomed to decipher coded meaning will be surprised.

You have pointed out correctly that “such acts” (I generalize your “terror attacks”) are a transmission of meaning, and that is: the use of a language. Understanding “such acts” would mean to understand more than One Word (“terror”), there are many others. That an eminent linguist like Chomsky cares about “such things” is not only good but also logical – not understandable is why Chomsky himself seems not to understand this and is on our side, the side of the good ones, only “as a citizen”, and not as a linguist who might decipher all of this to all of us. Perhaps he did already, and I am only unaware of it.

I am sorry but if the airplane was involved earlier in a tailstrike accident, then this would be the main suspect of the crash. A tailstrike is enough to cause important (or even massive) structural damage on the plane.

Also, there are TWO instances of airplanes involved in tailstrikes that were deficiently repaired and, years later, crashed due to structural failure. Those were:

Japan Airlines Flight 123
China Airlines Flight 611

Both were Boeing airplanes. I would look into the kind of repairs that were done on the airplane first, before jumping to conclusions. In both crashes, the repairs of the tailstrike incidents were not done according to the Boeing Structural Repair Manual (SRM): the repair doubler plate (that was supposed to reinforce the affected area) either was improperly fixed or did not cover the whole area. And note that the Japanese plane was incorrectly repaired by Boeing technicians.

Also, in case of a serious tailstrike accident, structural damage to the plane may be hard to assess; in these cases, it is possible that the procedure indicated by the Boeing SRM could be insufficient.

Now, it would be bad publicity for Boeing if the cause of the accident turns out to be a defective repair (if done on Boeing’s watch). No pun intended, here; airplanes are very complex machines, and unpredicted things (unpredicted by engineering) may happen. Anyway, this will not be terribly hard to investigate; we will soon know the truth.

When first I hear about this tragedy my first reaction was a terrorist act and still (until proved otherwise) I believe that. Egypt has a poor tract protecting tourists, ie a few months ago a group of Mexican tourist was killed by Egyptian security personal giving very poor explanations of how this could happened. Then we know that there are fundamentalists, IS sympathasiers/active amongt egyptians no question. Then going more conspiratory (which I do not believe) there are connections between Egyptian government and Saudi (Egypt is recipient of Saudi help) but I do not think they (officials) would dare to do so against a civilian plane.

keep responses factual
blip in flightradar24 data.
a child’s body was found 25k back along the flight path
this seems to be wrong
a childs body
blip
found
back along
the flight path
the body of a child
flight path for the soul
blip
this seems wrong
the tail debris field is 500-1000 meters
this seems wrong
latest news
the fields of heaven
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“Horrible as this may sound, I don’t think that this is very significant, at least not on a political level.”

Evaluation is a function of purpose.

If the purpose is transcendence then the salient questions remain:

Does a drowning man suit your purpose?

If not, how to drown a drowning man with the minimum of blowback?

In any lateral system “blowback” can be deflected/minimised – it can never be wholly avoided.

Some may be of the view that increasing the noise to signal ratio precludes minimisation, however given the system is lateral and hence not dependent on sole or primary agency, any action by opponents can be used to deflect/minimise “blowback”.

Encouraging opponents’ resort to bridging doubt by belief, and reliance on belief also affords opportunities for lateral challenge.

A further catalyst in this lateral process is the opponents’ marked tendency to “rush to judgement”.

There are many uses of the aspects outlined above.

“Well, I tried to avoid writing about this topic until more hard facts became available. But since this is apparently turning into a political fight between, on one side, Russia and Egypt and, on the other, the US and UK, I think that I can at least offer a few general thoughts.”

Appearances can be deceptive; deception can also be used to make appearances appear so.

A philosophical breakdown of an analyses is interesting, and definitely refreshing, but nonetheless, theoretical and dense with hypothetical considerations.. don’t get me wrong, it really is very nice, but I cannot understand it. Could you make it more descriptive, or more explanatory, in some simple language.. or… perhaps that would be risky, at this stage,.. hmm…

But that is impossible the material and ideal and are not dualistic entities but aspects of a single whole…idea’s do not fall from the sky…even wrong-headed one’s, they are the result of real world processes. The mind is the result of matter in motion…brain matter…
Just Imagine!
Cheers,
RR

Perhaps your lack of agency forms part of the reason you project your expectations onto another whom you assume has little resolve and limited agency?

If so you are projecting a hologram of your expectations which could constitute engaging in hermeneutics.

“randomsentence”

As to the notion “random”, like infinity it is a construct to bridge doubt engendered by that which is not presently understood. Sometimes this is attenuated for example in Heisenberg uncertainty principle.

Some hold that practices such as random number generation are possible, but since number is a linear system randomness is not possible since number remains within a linear paradigm.

The same logic is extended to random sentence generation since even neologisms follow a linear logical system.

It is also interesting that you cite one publication of the University of Chicago but not another to test hypotheses, say Thomas Kuhn’s Structure of Scientific Revolutions.

Perhaps comparing the rigour exhibited in both publications would illustrate interesting developments in the US “academy” including the University of Chicago over time.

Perhaps a close reading of Mr. Bulgakov’s Heart of a Dog will illustrate how dogma is dangerous .

“Society is fundamentally meaningless,” says Baudrillard; however, according
to la Tournier[1] , it is not so much society that is
fundamentally meaningless, but rather the defining characteristic, and
therefore the stasis, of society. However, McElwaine[2]
states that we have to choose between conceptualist theory and neosemioticist
nihilism.
[…]

I hope that at least two positive things arising from this tragedy: an even closer relationship between Russia and Egypt, and even greater control and surveillance of the Russians on internal and external security.
I also hope that instead of a wave of fear, the Russians experience a further wave of patriotism and inner strength.

A hug to everyone from São Paulo – Brazil.

P.s.: Saker, this analysis was expected a long time, was disappointed with your silence on this tragedy … Great read the analysis at last!

You say: “I don’t think that the Russian officials will lie about the cause of this crash”.

As much as I am a 100 % supporter of Putin the Great ( that’s what I call him) AND Russians, the Russian officials might indeed lie.
Why? because the Russian citizens might begin expressing vocally, that the lives of their own countrymen are not worth the strikes in Syria. This dissent of the regular Russian citizens is what the Israelis, Saudi Arabia and Western countries desire fervently—-for the Russian people to go against the actions of their Russian government. It’s a way to hurt Putin and Russia by putting the idea in the heads of the Russian citizens not to go ahead with the strikes actions against ISIS that are going so well for Putin and Russia and for the citizens of the world as well.

Putin is the greatest strategist and statesman so far of the 21st century, and anything he does and all he represents the Zionists want to smash it.

because the Russian citizens might begin expressing vocally, that the lives of their own countrymen are not worth the strikes in Syria.

No. The Russian people fully understand that Daesh is a threat to Russia no less than a threat to Syria. Thus, this also understand that it is better (for Russia) to fight Daesh in Syria rather than in the Russian Caucasus or Central Asia. This is the key thing: Russians accept the reality that they are in a war and that in a war there are casualities. They do not blame Putin for this attack and they are smart enough to know that Daesh and the AngloZionists are already at war with Russia. Of course, they are horrified by this massacre (assuming that is what we are dealing with), but they also accept that this is the world we are living in.
And while I 100% agree that Putin COULD lie in order to preserve Russian national interests, I simply don’t think that in this case he has any reason to lie. None at all. IF this plane was really bombed, then Putin can say that and all he will get from the Russian people in response is even a stronger mandate to go and kill as many Daesh freaks as possible.

Here is another question I wonder about.I firmly agree with you that that would strengthen the resolve of people not turn them against Putin.But there should be a large question in Russian eyes if ISIS could have done the bombing “without help”.And if not,”whose help”.And if it was connected to the West,what retaliation to take.In the “correct” past, when a country murdered your citizens you took punitive action at once on them.In today’s World countries too often “grin and bear it”.They should demand justice be done for their murdered citizens.And if they are refused ,turn the FSB loose to deliver that justice.

Why do so many readers who make comments on this blog seem to feel that the RF needs a babysitter and needs to be told what to do all the time? They are big boys (and girls) over there, they will figure it out on their own. Russia has only been around for a thousand years.

That comes under the heading of people sharing their opinions.That’s what people do on posting boards.One might also ask why do some people on the board seem to need to tell other posters on the board what they should do or not do.We are (most of us) adults and can make our own minds up.Besides, do you serious think high government officials in the RF are reading comments here and would be offended if we gave them advise.Over my weekly lunch with Vladimir Vladimirovich , I’ll ask him if he feels offended by my suggestions.

Some representatives of the Russian Federation recognise that useful fools are useful and this is partly the reason why Russia is not the Soviet Union.

Some representatives of the Russian Federation also recognise that they have opponents not enemies, and that targeted assassinations that you have recommended in the past give rise to questions such as – Whatever happened to Stepan Bandera?

“Why do so many readers who make comments on this blog seem to feel that the RF needs a babysitter and needs to be told what to do all the time?”

It is generally a marker of immersion in the ideology of exceptionalism – the beacon on the hill, the indispensible nation, the bringers of light into the darkness, subject/object, active/passive, manifest destiny etc.

Subsumed within all of these aspects are contempt for others and denial of agency/adulthood/humanity to others – the state of unequal and different which is the basis of the opponents’ system.

A similar framing was achieved during the British Empire under the notion of “White man’s burden”.

Ideology is more dangerous than weapons of any destruction.

Ideology is a form of blindness facilitating opportunities of lateral challenge of the opponents – a variation on the theme of hoist by their own petard.

Bob, I would bet my right leg that Western intelligence was behind this, and the response of the West, dropping hints about bombs, planted ‘just before take-off’, changing the narrative at the drop of the hat,claiming that this will demoralise the cowardly Russians, claiming that, somehow, bombing the noble ‘moderates’ rather than Daash, caused the attack, and making quite plain their lack of interest in dead Russians (some of the loval MSM comment here, drawing on the lies around MH17 has been viciously psychotic)etc, seems quite calculated. Like a challenge to Russia. Do something about it, if you dare. And if you don’t, there’s more to come. In a way I think the atrocity at the MSF hospital in Kunduz is part of the same process. A version of Dayan’s ‘rabid dog’ doctrine, only these Exceptional dogs really are barking mad. Check out WSWS and their report on the Congressional hearings where the planning and preparations for near-term wars of aggression against Russia and China were made sickeningly plain.

You could very well be right.I think if the plane was sabotaged the West had to be involved (or at least have known before hand about it).No real evidence I can point to.But it seems to fit their MO and style fully.

It has been said elsewhere. If there is foul play in this instance, and only once established, there will be an appropriate response in a time and place of RF choosing. I am sure the emotional impact for russians will inform such response, but will not drive or off track it. I would either not be surprised if the response will not hit the headlines at all.

Thank you for explaining to me in a concise and transparent manner the minds of the every day citizens of Russia.
Your post has made me sighed relief ! as I was very concerned that the Russians might end up doing just what the Demons in Cahoots have been wanting.

Saker, I wish I could share your conviction. But what if the investigation reveals a sophistication beyond of the ISIS’s capabilities? What if it proves a direct US/UK/etc. involvement? Now wouldn’t it put Putin in a hot seat by being forced to respond? How is more bombing ISIS targets going to avenge the downing of the airliner? I am afraid that Putin will have to lie and the cabal knows it.

The best revenge is chasing ISIS into the toilet. That’s how Putin avenged the Moscow apartment bombings. The Russian military probably has rockets specially made for latrines. There’s nowhere to hide.

“What if it proves a direct US/UK/etc. involvement? Now wouldn’t it put Putin in a hot seat by being forced to respond?”

Chomsky has said something rather clever: that an effective response does not mean it has to be violent.

If there is enough to establish that US/UK or ‘empire’ was responsible for the crash, it is sufficient to publish it and make it a matter of record, as in the UN, and let the world-wide political chips fall where they will — on heads of those responsible. Additionally, legal action, and other non-violent responses, are possible.

The only problem with responding to this plane crash by bombing ISIS is that that is the wrong response.

ISIS were not responsible for this atrocity, they are patsies taking credit for the work of others – whether CIA, Mossad, Saudi or Qatari intelligence.

Clear the U.S. & UK releasing stories about ISIS bombing the plane are to force Putin into one of two responses, backing down and looking weak by not confronting ISIS with the full force of Russian military might, or, going beserk and going all out to smash ISIS.

Why else are they so quick to finger ISIS? They are clearly laying some sort of trap for Putin to walk into.

If this was in fact Saudi intelligence, or Qatari even, the correct response is to do what the U.S. did in response to Lockerbie.

I find it suspicious that the Brits and Americans are so positive it was a bomb before all the investigation and testing is done. Do they know something, or is this just part of political gamesmanship? Either way it seems like they really want to provoke the Russian bear into an act of aggression.

@”it and English want to make Russia provoked into war before Russia is fully ready for real war ( that is before 2020)

That may well be.
Lots of provocations of different sorts, different levels, some concrete (bombs on passenger jets; F-whatevers flying near or within Syria) and some rhetorical or just plain mean (Charlie Hebdo jokes). I think PUtin is smart enough not to be lured into an unwise, too rapid reaction. He will watch and wait and choose teh time and territory that suits him and Russia to take revenge and also stake out the battefield. That wil include the diplomatic front, but< I hope, not to "make nice" with people are not nice (maybe pretend to make nice), but to firm up strategic partnerships and develop the infrastructure of defensive alliances. Think The Godfather. Memory is long. I wonder wehther long-term planning could include inserting political or military sleepers of various kinds into the West.
Katherine

I met a traveller from an antique land
Who said: Two vast and trunkless legs of stone
Stand in the desert. Near them on the sand,
Half sunk, a shatter’d visage lies, whose frown
And wrinkled lip and sneer of cold command
Tell that its sculptor well those passions read
Which yet survive, stamp’d on these lifeless things,
The hand that mock’d them and the heart that fed.
And on the pedestal these words appear:
“My name is Ozymandias, king of kings:
Look on my works, ye Mighty, and despair!”
Nothing beside remains: round the decay
Of that colossal wreck, boundless and bare,
The lone and level sands stretch far away
P.B Shelley

It’s was clear case of a bomb on board – that’s why Israeli investigating team was first to arrive at the scene.

Now, here why I smell some rotten eggs in this story; 1) Gen. Sisi is a Crypto Jew and very popular within Israeli regime, 2) Israel has offered its “help” to investigate (remove any evidence of Mossad involvement as it did France, Argentina, Spain, Kenya, the US, UK, Turkey, etc. in the past) the accident, 3) US-Israel’s baby ISIS has taken credit for shooting the plane to revenge Russian airstrikes in Syria against anti-Assad rebels, 4) Egyptian Sinai Peninsula which borders Israel, was occupied by Israel for nearly two decades, 5) Egypt has welcomed Russian military involvement in Syria claiming that would root-out Salaafi/Wahabi terrorism, 6) Israeli poodle governments in Bonn and Paris have banned commercial flights over Sinai Peninsula, and 7) Rita Katz, the Jewish ‘video expert’ has already released a video in support of ISIS claim.

1) the degree of political controversy bwn West & Russia has been exaggerated by sloppy news reporting that describes careful and *not* mutually extensive statements by officials on both sides as “controversy”.

2) I agree on net effect so far, but that might change if there are more attacks.

My first thought when hearing about the crash was that this was Israel’s revenge for Russia getting involved in Syria.

Could the sharp rise just before the loss of the signal be due to the pilots trying to avoid something showing on their radar?

Of course not knowing what really happened I propose the following scenarios >

1. US supplying Syria “moderates” with antiaircraft missiles for the purpose of them getting in the hands of Daesh for them to perpetrate this disaster.
2. Saker’s B-scenario made possible by burying evidence in the sand of which I suppose there is plenty in the Sinai.
3. A missile fired from across the border

A few thoughts crossing my mind …

The story pushed by the UK / US seems like a red herring.

The US sending F15 fighters to Turkey and with Russia rushing antiaircraft missiles to Syria gives me the feeling that the “official” start to the new great war is not far.

A strong autocratic ruler is much preferable to the fake democracy we live under.

138 women, 69 men and 17 children are dead if not due to mechanical failure then by the hand of remorseless villains. The provocateurs are not only the assassins but the black hearts that recruited them, planned this monstrous deed and paid them 30 pieces if silver.

The Russian authorities will put this case together, piece by piece and reveal the entire chain of evidence and bring it forth into the light of justice. The punishment will be severe for those criminals who gave birth to this evil. The shashka may strike a military base on land or at sea or the disappearance of an important politician, bureaucrat, banker or oligarch may occur.

What Putin won’t do is punish the innocent. No passenger aircraft or tourist bus or train or ferry will feel the sword. He won’t order that because Vladimir Putin is not only a great leader and Statesman but his very foundation is a morality that western powers are devoid of: a soul.

“I wonder what the Russian government will do if it turns out it was ISIS, what will be their retaliation, they are already bombing ISIS. Perps they will send more troops or send more special forces and attempt to capture or kill ISIS higher-ups.”

It’s quite possible that the purpose of the downing of the airliner (if that what it was indeed) was to draw Russia into sending boots on the ground in Syria. That was my first thought anyway.

ISIS is a terrorist franchise created by the US and its allies. It is made up of little armies of mercenaries who are supplied with propaganda props along with weapons, i.e. flags and guns. It is an intelligence community operation.

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