by Milla. Most of the time she is used as a gender neutral word for third person singular in this blog.

It was a young woman in Finland who came up with this. In Finnish there is no s/he divide. There’s only one word: hän. So she got really frustrated with having to make that difference in other languages, and came up with she.

I think it’s brilliant for so many different reasons.

1) It turns the current power system on its head: in most languages the gender “neutral” word is masculine. for instance in Spanish, where a group of women would be called “ellas” – feminine form of they – while a group of men would be “ellos” – masculine form of they.

a mixed group of men and women will always be in masculine form – “ellos” – even if there would be an overwhelming majority of women and only one man.

2) For the same reason as the above, it’s nice to question what feels “natural” (habitual!), by using she as the gender neutral. For most people it feels very strange and uncomfortable.

3) Woman is always pushed into second place, and made invisible. For this reason it’s nice to create a shift with more visibility towards the word she.

4) It’s about time we stop perpetuating the segregation between the (artificial) construct of male/female [human behavior separated in two categories – or: gender – expectations on a person’s behavioral patterns from birth, mostly based on the arbitrary occurrence of cunt or penis]. We don’t use different words for brown or blond haired persons. So why should we think it’s important to know the sex (cunt or penis) of the one that’s being talked about? Unless we think it’s important to maintain this system called patriarchy.

5) The current bipolar (“One or The Other” – Two Options Only) system ignores the fact that many humans are born intersexed. If the word ‘he’ or ‘she’ is supposed to be a reference to the biological sex of a person, then intersexed persons are excluded from existence within the current use of language.

After getting some comments on this page by intersexed persons. I will now add the quote below to make it clear that I am not speaking for a point of view generally accepted within the intersex community. Click here to read more:

First, how would we decide who would count in the “third gender”? How would we decide where to cut off the category of male and begin the category of intersex, or, on the other side of the spectrum, where to cut off the category of intersex to begin the category of female?

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35 Responses

Calling a male person ‘she’ and ‘her’ is sexist. Although using male pronouns towards women is sexist, using female pronouns towards men does not solve the language problem. “Male pronouns should be used only in relation to males.” (http://www.ucc.ie/equalcom/language.html#Page3)

Can you explain why it is sexist to call third person singular by the same pronoun? In this case using ‘she’ as a gender-neutral word expressing the same as the finnish ‘hän’ (meaning third person singular). [What does sexism mean to you?]

And could you explain why it is not sexist pointing out what sex (and in everyday language then excluding persons who are born intersexed – with different genitalia than penis or vagina) a person has in 3:d person sing? (I see it as the same thing as wanting to express what color or whether the person is able-bodied or not — it makes no sense whatsoever to point out what sex a person has in everyday speech. unless we want to reinforce a bipolar gender system with “masculine” behavior and “female” behavior instead of seeing us all as humans.)

Look, Milla, you cannot pretend that the word “she” is a gender-neutral term in English, along the lines of “han.” This would be akin to me calling you a “cunt,” but pretending that “cunt” means person. Whatever my intent is, “cunt” will still maintain its original connotations just as will “she.” If you really want a new sexless third-person singular pronoun, you will have to invent a new one. I thought this conclusion would have been obvious for an intellectual group.

1. Your wording ignores the right of people to define their own bodies as well as intersexed people who do have a vagina or penis. It also ignores the fact that people are not their bodies. There are quite a few male-bodied men with vaginas and female-bodied women with penises.

2. You’re also ignoring some aspects of intersexed people. Many of them have genders within the binary- “he” or “she” is ACCURATE for them. For intersexed people who identify outside the binary- you’re ignoring their preferred pronouns instead of creating a situation where they have the right to be referred to how they want to be referred to.

3. Pronouns should not refer to assigned or assumed sex- but the gender of the person. The fact that these two things often match up is irrelevant BECAUSE genitalia isn’t anyone else’s business. If a person with a labia asked you to call him “he”, you should call him “he” because his having a labia isn’t your business- you probably wouldn’t even know unless he felt like telling you. This is also why asking people what their preferred pronouns are is a must- you can’t always tell a person’s gender or pronoun preferences by looking at them.
And, no, gender is not defined by traits. There are masculine women and feminine men and they are still very much women and men, respectively.

4. Mis-pronouning is a part of gender erasure and misgendering. And you’re actually doing this to everyone by using a gender neutral pronoun for everyone. Some people have a neutral gender- but their preferred pronoun usually isn’t ‘she’ (and you’re removing their right to be called by the correct pronoun).
Most non-binaries get just as offended by the wrong genderqueer pronoun as they are by being called “she” or “he” because the person isn’t respecting their pronouns in both situations. I’m sure it’s different in finnish and other languages, but in english people have preferred pronouns that should be respected.

5. For many trans people, ‘she’ and ‘her’ were used to oppress, erase, and deny their gender for decades of their lives. Trying to justify ignoring their preferred pronouns with “I’m using a neutral ‘she'” doesn’t take away the sting. I’m sure that there are trans people who will accept being called a generic she- and if they do, then using it is respecting their wishes and that’s cool- but there are others for whom it just brings up the scars of past trauma. Being misgendered can be extremely painful and triggering- and it wouldn’t surprise me if even cis people feel it, but I really wish Ty had figured out a better way to express this if they do rather than squawking about sexism. That was really just nonsense.

6. Your goal of making people think would be accomplished by replacing the (bogus, busted, offensive) “generic he” or (grammatically awkward) “singular they” with “she”. Use it when there’s an instance of gender-not-specified- which comes up pretty often. People do this with other non-specified/neutral/queer 3rd person singular pronouns as well. You don’t need to ignore peoples’ pronouns to make people think.

my intent has never been to catch on to a larger crowd. it’s just to make people think. and to change my own way of thinking. (to me: ‘she’ is gender neutral, and at the same time doing all the things mentioned in the post above.)

as an intersex person i find it annoying and rude for you to make assumptions and draw conclusions about intersex people. i and most of the iS people i know are not concerned about being mis-identified as the wrong pronoun, nor do we feel we need to be identified as ‘neither’- we are more concerned about important things like the medical treatment we find it so difficult to get, because most intersex conditions either cause or lead to serious health problems.

i hope the changes i made are perceived as less offensive in relation to intersex being mentioned when i’m giving my reasons for and ways of using “she” in the patriarchal gender binary system we exist within and relate to regardless of body & gender identity.

no, not really. your co-opting of intersex people as an excuse for your tirades against patriarchy are misplaced, and as i can safely assume from your false assumptions that you aren’t intersex yourself, you can’t speak for any of us.

i’m hoping to with my 1-5 list on this page, point out the reasons for why i as an individual – and yes, you are right, i am not intersex, i am a person with a female biology – stuck in a system that, in my opinion, is falsely propagating the idea of only two biological bodies (the female and male sex) and only two human behavioral patterns (the female and male gender role) and how i see the divide in the english language “she”/”he” reproducing this, in my opinion, false binary idea of sex and gender.

my mention of intersexed is in no way meant to represent the ideas of individuals within the intersex community, but is here on this page to point out the FACT that biological bodies come in MORE than TWO (“male” & “female”) forms, and that the english language omits this fact IF – that is IF – the language is supposed to give a representation of biological sex when speaking of “she” and “he”.

i am NOT speaking on behalf of the intersex community with this text. and i’ve added a disclaimer to the text to hopefully make that clear.

depending on if you have the will or energy, then i would welcome more specific criticism as to “false assumptions” i’m making of intersexed persons on this page. (this is not clear to me, but it is not your task to educate me either, so i take your dislike as is. no need to explain further, if you simply don’t feel like it)

You’re still making the false assumption that intersexed people can’t be men or women. And I’m not sure if you aren’t replying to my comment because you haven’t had a chance to get to it or if you’re ignoring me. If it’s the latter, then this comment really doesn’t matter anyways.

”
The current bipolar (“One or The Other” – Two Options Only) system ignores the fact that many humans are born intersexed.
”

i just made a change on the page, since it seems like the sentence “bipolar (“man or woman”) system ignores” was a phrase triggering a lot of discontent.

so hopefully the change explains better what i mean. (it wouldn’t surprise me if it doesn’t, but still)

i see “men” and “women” as social constructs, ways of interrelating (gender), as well as the biological setup explained as “female sex” and “male sex” and i use those words carelessly meaning one or the other. i changed the sentence above to make it less confusing with what i mean. focusing more on a flawed system saying there is only two options for human bodies.

If this had been left at this, at “I have a very hard time using gendered pronouns because my native language doesn’t have them, so I just use ‘she’”, I don’t think I’d have cared. I don’t care if people who don’t have articles in their native languages throw up their hands and say “I just don’t get it- I don’t need them!”, either. I can’t think of a single part of Icelandic grammar I can ignore- but by guð I wish there were. English really is a complex freaking language. It’s what comes next that pisses me off to all hell, this just aggravates me because it seems like it’s trying to justify not learning a part of English grammar by shouting “GENDERED PRONOUNS ARE SEXIST!” and ignoring just about everyone in the process. (isn’t it great that they call out gendered pronouns as upholding the patriarchy, while their arguments uphold quite a few -archies of their own?)

Now, remember that I don’t speak Finnish. But I have this niggling feeling that Finnish isn’t English, and you can’t apply grammar concepts from one to the other and expect it to work perfectly. Here is the declension of the Finnish 3rd person pronouns. 13 distinct cases. English barely has 3- and 2 get smashed together in nouns- and a reflexive (ex. myself). Finnish verbs also have considerably more conjugation (puhua, to speak) than english verbs(to speak, puhua). While this isn’t a universal- the more conjugation and declension you have, the more specific and less confusion you have. In other words- you can probably get away with only having one pronoun with very little confusion when in English I still really wish we’d go with the “one pronoun per person” idea. Now, I’d need someone who speaks Finnish to comment on grammar in Finnish to say anything for certain, but my point is still made. Finnish is, indeed, not English. You cannot apply grammar rules from Finnish to English and expect them to work out all hunky dory- you can barely apply english grammar rules to english.

[…] problem. If they match, you probably won’t notice. This pisses me off because, after a person objected to “she” being used for men (“sexism” wasn’t the best argument, IMHO), this person came back with “Why […]

you wrote:
”
1. Your wording ignores the right of people to define their own bodies as well as intersexed people who do have a vagina or penis. It also ignores the fact that people are not their bodies. There are quite a few male-bodied men with vaginas and female-bodied women with penises.
”

my wording tries to point out that >TO ME< the thought system "man/woman" (female/male sex, female/male gender) is a social construct (affecting most of us in relation to how we're treated and how we identify or do not identify with[in] these concepts).

i made changes in the text. so i no longer speak of genitals in point 5, where intersex are mentioned. i can see that the original phrasing is easily reproducing the (FALSE) idea that ALL intersex and not just SOME intersex have outer genitals not matching the current norm for "penis" and "cunt". (which for a lot of people living in the binary gender system is the "great divider" when it comes to how a human being is to be treated from birth — by saying this and speaking of gender, i do not wish to minimize other social constructs such as white/non-white, ablebodied/with disability, adult/child also affecting our way of thinking, feeling, and interacting in this world) To make this clear: THIS IS MY OPINION. I AM NOT CLAIMING TO SPEAK FOR THE WORLD VIEW OF ALL.

i don't think that i'm giving an answer you would be content with since you have a more floating concept on (non)identity and how it's constructed than i do. we have different lives and have come to different conclusions. i can not write in a way that you feel 100% comfortable with since i am not you. i do not think like you. i do not feel like you.

chartreuse flamethrower wrote,
”
2. You’re also ignoring some aspects of intersexed people. Many of them have genders within the binary- “he” or “she” is ACCURATE for them. For intersexed people who identify outside the binary- you’re ignoring their preferred pronouns instead of creating a situation where they have the right to be referred to how they want to be referred to.
”

i agree with you that my way of using words are not fitting in with what everybody feels comfortable with. as far as i know there are only a handful of people in finland using “she” in a similar way, and i can not speak for what their reasons for doing so are, i can only speak for myself. i am hopefully not ignoring people, giving them the right to feel strongly about pronouns/gender/identity in the same way as i feel strongly about pronouns/gender/identity. i am hopefully not with this text ignoring a reality where the majority of people in the english speaking world feel comfortable with either “he” or “she” and feel uncomfortable and agitated with something that does not feel accurate to them.

i can not say how i act in every individual case. with all the preferred gender pronouns there are. i would say that most often i would not use “he”, cause i wouldn’t feel comfortable using that. and that i am okay with not using “she” if somebody feels very strongly about this.

chartreuse flamethrower wrote,
”
3. Pronouns should not refer to assigned or assumed sex- but the gender of the person. The fact that these two things often match up is irrelevant BECAUSE genitalia isn’t anyone else’s business. If a person with a labia asked you to call him “he”, you should call him “he” because his having a labia isn’t your business- you probably wouldn’t even know unless he felt like telling you. This is also why asking people what their preferred pronouns are is a must- you can’t always tell a person’s gender or pronoun preferences by looking at them.
And, no, gender is not defined by traits. There are masculine women and feminine men and they are still very much women and men, respectively.
”

i don’t believe in gender as something essential or something worth hanging on to. i feel very strongly about this. so i don’t really know what to say when you say things i don’t really see i fit in with. we think and feel differently. and i think and feel differently with a lot of people.

i don’t believe in gender as something essential or something worth hanging on to. i feel very strongly about this. so i don’t really know what to say when you say things i don’t really see i fit in with. we think and feel differently. and i think and feel differently with a lot of people.

chartreuse flamethrower wrote,
”
4. Mis-pronouning is a part of gender erasure and misgendering. And you’re actually doing this to everyone by using a gender neutral pronoun for everyone. Some people have a neutral gender- but their preferred pronoun usually isn’t ‘she’ (and you’re removing their right to be called by the correct pronoun).
Most non-binaries get just as offended by the wrong genderqueer pronoun as they are by being called “she” or “he” because the person isn’t respecting their pronouns in both situations. I’m sure it’s different in finnish and other languages, but in english people have preferred pronouns that should be respected.
”

as i said. i don’t believe in gender as something essential, and i see it as something worth getting rid of. i feel just as strongly about this identity/way of seeing and feeling about things as you seem to feel about what you’ve been writing above.

chartreuse flamethrower wrote,
”
5. For many trans people, ‘she’ and ‘her’ were used to oppress, erase, and deny their gender for decades of their lives. Trying to justify ignoring their preferred pronouns with “I’m using a neutral ‘she’” doesn’t take away the sting. I’m sure that there are trans people who will accept being called a generic she- and if they do, then using it is respecting their wishes and that’s cool- but there are others for whom it just brings up the scars of past trauma. Being misgendered can be extremely painful and triggering- and it wouldn’t surprise me if even cis people feel it, but I really wish Ty had figured out a better way to express this if they do rather than squawking about sexism. That was really just nonsense.
”
we walk around in individual trigger landscapes. i’m pretty scared when writing this reply since i figure that a lot of what i say can be triggering to others.

i appreciate the realities brought out in your points. sentences speaking of identities and feelings around gendered pronouns. for me it’s essentially misplaced to have essentialist ideas around gender (promoting the existence of it, without discussing power relations and how gender and how uncritical coexistence with other socially constructed concepts [whiteness, ablebodiedness, adulthood, class] affect the interactions on earth [and most likely on this blog as well. i feel a huge gap, and i’m afraid standing on the edge of trying to describe what i see. i fear that we might end up desperately screaming across the gap without really hearing the other]

being in put in the category of “other” in relation to a mainstream uncritical “self” is pain. i do realize that i am that “self” now, and i don’t know how to overcome speaking of my experiences of growing up and into a gendered system that has caused me great mental harm as well as physical attacks (rape etc) because of rituals and habits, mostly invisible and never talked about, pushed me into the role of “female”. a role i’ve never felt comfortable with. yet sometimes felt comfort in, the safety of habits, the safety of being appreciated for doing the “right” thing, behaving in the “right” and according to “expectations”. dreaming that “if i’m only a good girl” then everything will be alright.

i know my socialization has deeply traumatized and scarred me. and i know that i have the power to scar by saying “gender is not real” “gender is not true” when being in a body perceived as “cis” and thought of as a person thinking and feeling “cis”. i know i can cause trauma and deep feelings of rejection when i say i have different experience because of being cis and not trans. different fears, different scars. i have different experiences than someone who knows they’re intersex.

i accept that gender is something that a lot of people believe in and want to hold on to in whatever way shape or form. i also accept that i can speak clearly that i’m a non-believer and that i want to go in to every part of my social being and look and see and ask “why?” and change into something not trapped and reactive. and the way for me to experience freedom and choice is a total rejection of gender other than as “religion” or “cage”.

when being in a body perceived as “cis” and thought of as a person thinking and feeling “cis”.

i accept that gender is something that a lot of people believe in and want to hold on to in whatever way shape or form. i also accept that i can speak clearly that i’m a non-believer and that i want to go in to every part of my social being and look and see and ask “why?” and change into something not trapped and reactive. and the way for me to experience freedom and choice is a total rejection of gender other than as “religion” or “cage”.

Sounds to me like you’re more genderless than gendered- which reiterates my earlier point. Why do you call yourself a woman if you feel that gender is a cage? Woman is a gender-based word.

When a person is an atheist- that person does not say “religion doesn’t exist, I refuse to accept htat people are christians or jews”. Even if that person says “I think those people are irrational nits”, they still acknowledge the reality of people being christians and jews.

chartreuse flamethrower wrote
”
6. Your goal of making people think would be accomplished by replacing the (bogus, busted, offensive) “generic he” or (grammatically awkward) “singular they” with “she”. Use it when there’s an instance of gender-not-specified- which comes up pretty often. People do this with other non-specified/neutral/queer 3rd person singular pronouns as well. You don’t need to ignore peoples’ pronouns to make people think.
”

i don’t know what to say. if i need to say anything. at first when i read your reply i figured that you wouldn’t be interested in hearing what i have to say and how i feel about things. i don’t know how you think or feel. i responded now since you made a comment on the blog asking for response. your main point seem to be a deep respect for bodies and behavior labeled as “wrong” and “other” by a dominant unthinking non-reflective “fitting the mold” mainstream. i don’t know if this is correct. a deep respect for the humanness in us all. and a deep respect for each and everyone to find their own ways of labeling and defining, within a system that easily do that for us (either in social groups – friends, family – or through institutions – school, health care system, state.)

i don’t know if we can create that sort of space here and now. where there is calm and peace and learning in the interaction between us. somehow i doubt it. i have too many experiences with speaking leading to disconnection and pain (screaming across the gap, in fear, anger and anguish)

i appreciate you giving me advice, or expressing how you would prefer me to do in order to get people to think. i just don’t know where the boarders go of me trying to express myself more clearly (causing less frustration by misunderstandings) and me changing the meaning of what i say (corrupting what’s alive in me in order to please another). i wish to be clear. i don’t know how to be “non-offensive” in expressing militantly that i do not believe in gender so i don’t use “he/she”. it’s like saying “i don’t believe in god” so i don’t pray. and then seeing where to move on from there.

i wish communication would not be so TRIGGERING. but unfortunately we live in a world made of words.

I think this is obviously something I’m having a very difficult time with. I don’t have a gender: cool. I wish the world was less gendered: sure, why not. I don’t get gender: who does? I refuse to accept anyone’s gender or respect how they wish to be referred to as: … Okay, wow, insisting that people aren’t allowed to decide what they’re called isn’t at all insulting or demeaning.

Let me see if I can express this in a different way, as I really had no idea this is the direction you were going so my first comment was a bit off. Quite frankly- I assumed you were a feminist doing the same thing as herstory and womyn and all that other good stuff, not a gender abolitionist. So here goes.

I am asexual. I experience no sexual attraction and have no interest in sex. And I have been burned by the idea that everyone is sexual, make no mistakes about that.

So this is a bit like if I were to insist that, because I am asexual, no one is sexual- that sexual attraction is a cage that people must free themselves from.

I would openly disregard anyone’s sexuality, because sexuality doesn’t exist- it’s all a social construct that leads to and supports heteronormativity. I would reject sexualized language- attack culture for being so sexualized and deflect people who try to argue with me by pointing out what groups are harmed by the idea of sexuality. If someone came to me and said that they actually do experience sexual attraction, that the attraction they feel to people is very real and valid and an important part of their identity that they feel should be respected- I’d brush this aside because, to me, it’s misplaced to have an idea that sexuality is important (it doesn’t exist! Why place importance on something that doesn’t exist?).

i assume that you are willing to engage in dialogue around this. and i would very much not like to drop it. would you be okay with having a skype conversation?

i’ve recently had a relapse into unhealthy drinking (i’ve been an alcoholic for 15 years) and threw up blood with the whiskey. so i’m physically and mentally not feeling very okay at the moment. just wanting to let you know that i’m not ignoring you. i will take time and read everything you’ve made an effort to put into text. but still wondering if you would be okay with having a skype chat,

cause it would be less exhausting for me. i’m tired (TIRED!!) of having “differences” with people over the internet in text (usually leading nowhere).

I’m very sorry about that- I hope you feel better soon. I realize we have differences- but I wouldn’t want to make things any worse than they are just because we disagree on this. I have a skype, but I never use it so I’m not sure I remember a password. My gmail is RDraconis@gmail.com if that’s what you’d like to use.

We could just put this off until you’re doing better, that’s fine with me.

thanks for the email address. on monday i’m hopefully having a wisdom tooth pulled. i’ve had an infection lasting for quite some time and to avoid the physical annoyance i got into drinking again (not very smart. i’ve been sober for 8 months :p ..) and this totally crashed my mental health. so i’m in some self-hating thoughts. bashing myself. if i get the tooth pulled i expect to not be in shape for some week/weeks. i will send you an email once i feel “better” (i’m never okay. depression i guess. plus loneliness and a lot of dissatisfying conflict.)