Hi all and greetings to the rest! I'm glad to see some of the same old people touting around your bloated intellects like so many dung beetles trekking across a sandy wasteland of lameness (=28)cough .

It is good to see that your families are thriving and that the geysers of bile are erupting blissfully as ever before, I recollect often and think warmly of punching my monitors in the face those many hours wasted whilst attempting to communicate with you great elitist F-tards.

I hope that none had been killed or maimed too horriblied, except for Nobby; of course. Mobiuslawd may do well to be maimed so as to have chance to improve his face.

Now that those pleasantries are out of the way I am starting this as a thread not just about Christianity but rather the questions of existence, everything, 42, et al.. WHAT else is new!? RIGHT? No **** I'm going to try really hard not to make a wall of text here about this though; yeah..

So after all of the spiritual blah blah blah and searching and attempting to formulate so kind of coherent answer or indeed even question of just what the **** is going on around here with the universe etc by way of life and death and the world and observations and meditations into the depths of the religions and philosophies of both East and West; through attempting to map the paths of the Soul through twisting and spiraling layers of layers of space and time through branches of cultures and languages; the meaning of emotion and memory coupled with eternity and love..,ALL of this, have I finally made a conclusion. This forum has witnessed many of my speculations and suppositions; to the delight of some and the dismay of others. Of this I say that a great deal of the QUESTIONING itself was in vain, as indeed the question was completely false: trying to seek enlightenment. The great irony of enlightenment is that the seeking of it in itself is purely vain; as in the end you die. yay! "I'm enlightened!!" we shout; well even if we learned to float in the air and speak telepathically it wouldn't change the fact that we are never truly in control and are finite creatures and thus indeed OMNIA VANITAS.

Now there were several statements in that previous line which I'm sure many would argue with. I'm sure that it will be in vain.

So the one fundamental thing here is the belief in a CREATOR. Without regurgitation of philosophy 101; Were you to believe in a SOURCE for something then you must logically conclude that stuff comes either from One or Many. To go farther, of course, you have to come to regard this source as having a source and down the line; I mean this is simple ;logic here. From thence , however, we have the question of an Ultimate Source that is to say a ONE. If you can come to believe that a Terminal Source is the source of all creation; that is to say that we are Created by One and not Many.. then you are on the right track.

After this point; (that is if you have come to terms with the notion that you were CREATED..) then to proceed you must ask of the nature of this creator. The problem here being that being the creature, that which is created, you are not going to ever come to see the utterly true nature of that which is Creator. As so and so put it; like a river trying to reach higher than its source (CS Lewis?).

I think one major issue is if this creator is conscious or not. This is also a matter of people trying to bring that which is high to that which is lower and if you really consider the logic of people rejecting the notion of a living God because they can't fathom the mere fact that they can't fathom it is just garbage, really. It's is poor investigation if one cannot think of a thing from all angles. When one contemplates the reality of God seriously, one will actually attempt to consider the possibility that it is real and then take a look at the world around them. Quite often people reject what they see because that which they see doesn't coincide with THEIR OWN personal notion of what THEY think that the Creator should be; it doesn't meet to THEIR standards.. and once again a case of the river trying to go higher than the source and thus rejecting the source because it is not on the same level ground as lower parts.

Does this make any sense? Is this not just simple logic here? Is it so far fetched that people are so egocentric that they cannot accept a notion that does not make THEM the center of universe? Think about it; I'm not talking about 10 armed elephant gods and lofty pasta dieties; I'm talking about the one and true living God that created everything and never had shape that man conceived of.

Why did I come to conclude that YHWH is this God? LOGIC LOGOS?

Here it is; IF there is a supreme being who created people then one would ask "WHY did this supreme being create people?" Honestly for a human to ask why God did anything is an effort in futility; people say that it is a copout; but if I refused to lift up a bus off of a person its not a copout, its because its impossible. Therein even lies the concept; FREE WILL. I profess that above other creatures that we know of; human beings above all things have free will; we can recognize a Good and and Evil above other creatures and we can CHOOSE to reject God. Now this is the hard part for so many people, but to come to terms with a Creator God, then one must consider the meaning of Good and Evil; not a standard of human but a standard of God.

Back to Free Will.. The concept if pretty simple to consider. If you come to terms with a Living God, that is to say God that is all knowing etc, then WHAT IS THE POINT? Free Will answers that question. We were created so that God may have beings who have freely of their own accord chosen to turn toward their creator. I mean truly FREELY without domination. People often say "Well if God wanted everyone to believe then why doesn't God appear on everyone's TVs and monitors or in the middle of Times Square on New Years and 'say worship me'!?". Well if that happened that would kinda defeat the purpose of free will wouldn't it? I suppose another good analogy is like a billionaire trying to find someone who loves them just for them.. What do you do? How do you get them to prove that they truly love you and turn to you? You set something up that will prove their willingness to be with you beyond the greed. That of course is where The Anointed One comes in and where the debates really get tricky.

Many people are willing to say that there might be a God, but they usually just stop right there.. because to go any farther might mean that they might have to start paying attention alittle better... they don't actually stop and consider that (once again):

- IF this God exists - Designed to have beings to share perfected creation with - Designed these beings to be able of REJECTING their creator

We see it as Flaws.. people say "Why did this god of love create us with flaws??" Is the freedom to willingly choose a flaw?? If we were designed to simply love our creator then we would be no different than animals. God doesn't want robots. God want those whose faces are toward him by means of their own personal faculties. To continue:

- God needs a way to communicate his message while at the same time not dominating people and thus negating free will. - The Jews - The Anointed One (Jesus Christ) - The Rest of Humankind

Why? Because this Earth is a corrupted place as its roots are in corruption; here's why; Our existence in the flesh is that which separates us from God. Therefore the Earth as we know it and even as our flesh knows it is in no way going to last. Hence those who have indeed demonstrated to God that they indeed have their faces turned toward him shall indeed be the ones who will share that eternity. There are many who say that this is a fairy tale make-believe land all made up so that we sleep better at night..

I say that most people sleep better at night NOT believing that judgment may await them for the actions of their mind, body, and soul. I can see that logic in saying that people made up a lot of things to make them feel better about life and death; but most people are too trapped staring at their world through the mirror of their flesh to realize that that logic is a two-way street.

So then, to try to wrap this up, Why Jesus? It seems to me that the lengths that people go to NOT believe it are wholly irrational; but really it is the Spirit which enables us to truly believe. What is the need for Faith? How else can a Jew or Gentile be free from the trapping of the flawed physical universe, when their traditions and religions never have carried true salvation and liberation?. HOW ELSE would a Creator God come to gather the people of the earth to him of their own free will and while not breaking that free will for which we were created for??? By setting up this Jesus.. as a way.. as the ONLY WAY that a person may ACKNOWLEDGE to God that they are truly willing to turn their faces toward their creator.

Is not everything else nothing but vanity>? tell me, does this make any sense? you may go on with your lives pretending that its all good and that nothing that we do matters.. but do those who think that really truly ask themselves the right questions? I hope that they will learn to for their sakes.

Prior to all of this I did have some pretty elaborate ideas about things, and even know I do not discount many of them, yet even though all of the worldly knowledge and enlightenment in the universe will not bring you salvation in eternity unless you are willing to accept God in the way that God has ordained that we accept him; that this the anointed king of the Jews, Jesus.

Does it sound crazy and strange? Of course it does; it has to. If it were easy to accept then there would be no value in it would there?

Numbers 21:8-The LORD said to Moses, "Make a snake and put it up on a pole; anyone who is bitten can look at it and live."

John 3:14- Just as Moses lifted up the snake in the desert, so the Son of Man must be lifted up.

I thought you were still here but changed your name to something else?

tl;dr

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publiusvarus wrote:

we all know liberals are well adjusted american citizens who only want what's best for society. While conservatives are evil money grubbing scum who only want to sh*t on the little man and rob the world of its resources.

I leave for Europe tomorrow! Fear my American tourism dollars, you ungrateful sots.

Europe is a big place, be more specific!

What the Brit said.

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Theophany wrote:YOU'RE AN ELITIST @#%^ AETHIEN, NO WONDER YOU HAVE NO FRIENDS AND PEOPLE HATE YOU. someproteinguy wrote:Aethien you take more terrible pictures than a Japanese tourist. Astarin wrote:One day, Maz, you'll learn not to click on anything Aeth links.

Wow, you just regurgitated all of the WORST arguments for the existence of god. No, literally--no philosophers, even the theists, or even religious orders take these arguments seriously because they are full of GAPING HOLES.

Your defense of free will is ludicrous. Your argument for why there must be a single source is logically invalid. Your argument for why there must be a source at all is nonexistent. Your argument for why the source must be conscious is invalid (and has never been taken seriously). You assume a definition of good and evil without bothering to try and substantiate them.

Your post sounds crazy and strange, yes. But not for the reasons you think it does. I know plenty of theistic people who accept the logical problems with their religion and work to overcome them (they put faith in the fact that the arguments are wrong somewhere, but fully accept that they seem to be completely valid).

The fact that you actually blame logic for hiding the truth is the most laughable part.

I thought you were still here but changed your name to something else?

No way!; just lurking really.

lolgaxe wrote:

I care that I exist. My caring about existence extends two, maybe three people beyond that.

Is it not wise to consider the will of that which caused you to exist ?(not causality)

Nilatai wrote:

How did you get around the fact that free will and omnipotence don't stack well together?

Free will exists from omnipotence. That which is omnipotent and has a will may endow that which it has created with a will as well. This is not against the creators sovereignty as our free will only exist as to either turn toward God or to turn toward darkness. Everything else that we consider free will is really a myth as we are ALL at the wills of our fleshly selves.

Wow, you just regurgitated all of the WORST arguments for the existence of god. No, literally--no philosophers, even the theists, or even religious orders take these arguments seriously because they are full of GAPING HOLES.

Where are you going to go with this? Ever hear of Socrates? Plato?

Morans

So sure... Prime mover yada yada yada.. Even the classics agreed that there was probably a God.. but they also agreed that all human beings were DAMNED..Do you seee and understand where this goes?

The GOd of Israel did not appear in a vacuum of circumstance. Our existence is and always has been to fellowship with God... even when all of your little slogan spitting philosphers were digging their holes to nowhere for millennia.

Quote:

Your defense of free will is ludicrous.

What am i defending? What is your stance?

Quote:

Your argument for why there must be a single source is logically invalid. Your argument for why there must be a source at all is nonexistent.

My only real "argument" for why there must be a source is the fact that there is anything. The only people who don't believe ther is a source or String Theory fanboys who suckle off Hawkins' teats like he were the cattle goddess herself.

Quote:

You assume a definition of good and evil without bothering to try and substantiate them.

By what standards? the Perception of Good and Evil are either going to come from a LOCAL or NON LOCAL viewpoint.. doesn't seem that complicated to ME.. especially considering that we are the only things that are have Good and Evil and we didn't create ourselves..

How did you get around the fact that free will and omnipotence don't stack well together?

Free will exists from omnipotence. That which is omnipotent and has a will may endow that which it has created with a will as well. This is not against the creators sovereignty as our free will only exist as to either turn toward God or to turn toward darkness. Everything else that we consider free will is really a myth as we are ALL at the wills of our fleshly selves.

Ooops, I slipped up there, sorry. I meant to say, omniscience. If your creator is all knowing, this means it already knows everything that is ever going to happen. Which presupposes that everything is preordained from this creator's perspective which renders any free will we might have irrelevant as any choice we are going to make has already been seen to have happened.

How did you get around the fact that free will and omnipotence don't stack well together?

Free will exists from omnipotence. That which is omnipotent and has a will may endow that which it has created with a will as well. This is not against the creators sovereignty as our free will only exist as to either turn toward God or to turn toward darkness. Everything else that we consider free will is really a myth as we are ALL at the wills of our fleshly selves.

Ooops, I slipped up there, sorry. I meant to say, omniscience. If your creator is all knowing, this means it already knows everything that is ever going to happen. Which presupposes that everything is preordained from this creator's perspective which renders any free will we might have irrelevant as any choice we are going to make has already been seen to have happened.

Just because it knows the choice doesn't mean that it makes the choice for you. Really it also knows every choice that you will ever make in all possible circumstances but it is still you making that choice. It think that then reverts back to the question of omnipotence again.. of which I have already touched on.. most then argue about how we were created either to choose one way or the other.. But however we were created we have the choice nonetheless.

How did you get around the fact that free will and omnipotence don't stack well together?

Free will exists from omnipotence. That which is omnipotent and has a will may endow that which it has created with a will as well. This is not against the creators sovereignty as our free will only exist as to either turn toward God or to turn toward darkness. Everything else that we consider free will is really a myth as we are ALL at the wills of our fleshly selves.

Ooops, I slipped up there, sorry. I meant to say, omniscience. If your creator is all knowing, this means it already knows everything that is ever going to happen. Which presupposes that everything is preordained from this creator's perspective which renders any free will we might have irrelevant as any choice we are going to make has already been seen to have happened.

Just because it knows the choice doesn't mean that it makes the choice for you. Really it also knows every choice that you will ever make in all possible circumstances but it is still you making that choice. It think that then reverts back to the question of omnipotence again.. of which I have already touched on.. most then argue about how we were created either to choose one way or the other.. But however we were created we have the choice nonetheless.

does that make sense?

Not really, no. Omnipotence causes issues here all by itself. If an omnipotent, omniscient being has perfect knowledge of what will happen without it's intervention, and it's intervention is guaranteed to bring about a different result, then it has absolute control over what will happen. By refusing to intervene, the being has effectively chosen the course of action.

That aside, assuming your presupposition that this being knows every possible course of action one could possibly take. Then in what sense does free will exist? If all your decisions are known by God before you make them then it's not clear if you are really making any "choices" since all the things that you do are predestined.

This would also be a good time to ask if you think this creator has a plan for you, I think. So, do you think it does?

Is it not wise to consider the will of that which caused you to exist ?(not causality)

Nilatai wrote:

How did you get around the fact that free will and omnipotence don't stack well together?

Free will exists from omnipotence. That which is omnipotent and has a will may endow that which it has created with a will as well. This is not against the creators sovereignty as our free will only exist as to either turn toward God or to turn toward darkness. Everything else that we consider free will is really a myth as we are ALL at the wills of our fleshly selves.

I'm assuming Nilatai meant omniscience, not omnipotence.

If god is omniscient, he knows what any agent will do before they do it,and he is incapable of being wrong.

A such, in any situation, an agent could not have done otherwise. What I will type in this post would be known to God, despite the fact that I haven't "freely" made the choice to type it yet.

As such, my action isn't truly free. God knows what I will do, which means I have no actual choice in the matter--it's impossible for me to make god wrong.

This is a problem that churches around the world are aware of, and every large denomination has their own theory (none of which I find convincing at all).

The most common attempt to escape the argument is to assert that god is timeless, in the sense that he exists outside of time. The other most common solution is to argue that god doesn't have knowledge of what you will actually do, but rather has knowledge of what you would do in a given situation (and he sets it up so that those situations occur). The latter is the position of the Catholic Church on the matter.

These responses are unimpressive for the same reason. Even if God lacks temporal clairvoyance, he still must maintain logical clairvoyance. He knows, atemporally, how every agent will act in every situation that occurs in the temporal world.

The story is intended to suppose that, being outside time, God can experience everything simultaneously. As such, we "make" our choices and he is aware of them all outside the scope of time.

But frankly, this is still an issue. For one, the fact remains that, for me, God knows what word I will type next, before I have even decided on one. The theists allege that he knows because it is what I choose to do in time, and he exists without. That doesn't change the fact that, logically, he knows exactly what I will do in that given situation (and knew it before time even began).

Why? Because God allegedly has a specific end in mind for the world. He is said to have a purpose for humanity that WILL be reached. Furthermore, he's omniscient. So he logically processed his decisions in order (atemporally) and created the universe that would bring about that end. He chose which actions you would take, because he knew you'd take them. That means your choices were set in stone since time began.

Molonists (the Catholic sect that supports this idea) tries to argue that God knows what you'd do because you'd do it, and so you still make the choice. But the fact remains that God knows what you'd do before he even actually creates you, and so you--the you existing in time--have no choice in any matter. The "you" that gets to make a choice is the conception of you in gods mind, long before he ever creates you or your soul.

Sorry, but that's not impressive. And it isn't free will.

This remains one of the biggest problems for organized religions that hold that their deity has some ultimate plan for the universe. It's so problematic that many organized religions don't actually hold that god is omniscient--they claim he has no knowledge of the future. He's just bumbling along as oblivious as the rest of us. It isn't until a future event is certain that he gains knowledge of it.

I see no reason to praise such a god, should he exist. He clearly isn't there to guide me, because he doesn't know how to. He can't guarantee that I won't die in a horrible, drawn-out, painful death in a natural disaster because he has no clue where I will be when one strikes.

FURTHERMORE, remember that, for free will to be valuable, God can't violate it as an omni-benevolent God. So even if he learns that you're headed for disaster, he won't do crap--you are experiencing the effects of your choice, the part that makes it valuable.

If an omnipotent, omniscient being has perfect knowledge of what will happen without it's intervention, and it's intervention is guaranteed to bring about a different result, then it has absolute control over what will happen.

The willingness to turn toward God or away from God is not intervention; if you are getting at it being some retroactive intervention then I would say that is just twisting logic. We were created and given the ability to choose; but we will always choose the flesh when we have a choice.. What God has provided is a simple way to choose to turn toward Him without having to really understand how it works or even why it works.. but I will testify that it does and it will work. It is the one way that we are actually given to choose between the finite flesh or the eternal spirit.

If an omnipotent, omniscient being has perfect knowledge of what will happen without it's intervention, and it's intervention is guaranteed to bring about a different result, then it has absolute control over what will happen.

The willingness to turn toward God or away from God is not intervention; if you are getting at it being some retroactive intervention then I would say that is just twisting logic. We were created and given the ability to choose; but we will always choose the flesh when we have a choice.. What God has provided is a simple way to choose to turn toward Him without having to really understand how it works or even why it works.. but I will testify that it does and it will work. It is the one way that we are actually given to choose between the finite flesh or the eternal spirit.

It's fine, your heaven always sounded kind of crappy to me. All that prostrating and grovelling to a god who has just done his job by creating you. I think I'd rather worship Thor, Valhalla sounds like more fun.

If all your decisions are known by God before you make them then it's not clear if you are really making any "choices" since all the things that you do are predestined.

This would also be a good time to ask if you think this creator has a plan for you, I think. So, do you think it does?

God will do and plan whatever God want with you because God already knows what you would do in all possible circumstances that could possibly happen to you. God can either allow things to happen that are based on your choices.. God knows you better than you know yourself.. keep that in mind at all times. Yes God indeed has a plan for all of us.