I'm glad I had my madeleines out of the oven before I started reading. Jenny, why didn't you bring Socrates?.

Socrates was a wise and clever man, he never could be wrong. That's why near the end of his book I thought he did not deserve the poison, but he sure did deserve Xantippe.

Tsuwm's advise to write offline and copy is really a good one. Far more relaxed. To me the outcome looks very undetermined in spite or maybe just because of the 99 species of determinism in the wiki article.

Dear, dear, tsuwm; disarticulated facts are the stuff of idiot savants. Read here the semantic evidence for Determinism. And if after reading it you don't understand it go back and read it again because you have done a poor job of putting it together.

1) In your mind multiply the total number of atoms in the universe times their interactions with other atoms since the Big Bang exploded fifteen billion years ago.2) Life is defined by self-replication and change.3) Lifeforms as entities extend into the environment.4) Thoughts and words are physical extentions of lifeforms.5) Nothing can't beget something.

But, it you believe in an omnipresent and ompnipotent god, all that is necessary is the (mind; will; existence? pick what you want) of god. Surely, that is what St John was saying? The universe was made extant by the Word.

[personally, I don't believe any of the above, but I think it is a viable argument]

PS And te Word of God is not of us, though with us, and is, therefore, not a pre-existing condition!

The concept of an omniscient God who is outside of time and the concept of free-will seem to me to be mutually exclusive. But that's why we try not to talk about religion here.

What, Faldage? You got a mouse in your pocket? WE here can discuss whatever we please as long as WE are not rude or vulgar. RC, Olly, BranShe, you, and me, are not talking religion, we are talking Determinism so stay on point. Now listen closely...

In the begining was the Word. And the word was God and the word was with God.Which translates deterministically as...

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