Re: NYC Attack

Posted: Tue Dec 12, 2017 8:12 am

by c_hawkbob

You're really using this idiot for I told you so points?

Re: NYC Attack

Posted: Tue Dec 12, 2017 9:20 am

by RiverDog

I have to agree with IDHawk on this one. We do need to toughen our entry requirements, particularly these family visas, which is how this suspect entered the country. Each applicant needs to be judged on their own merits independent of any family ties they might have in this country. The fact that they have family here is not a good indicator of their potential to become good citizens. I just have a problem when they start introducing religion into the equation.

And I want to point out that the suspect did not come from Trump's list of naughty countries in his original travel ban from back in January. He came to us from Bangladesh.

Re: NYC Attack

Posted: Wed Dec 13, 2017 7:18 am

by idhawkman

c_hawkbob wrote:You're really using this idiot for I told you so points?

RiverDog wrote:I have to agree with IDHawk on this one. We do need to toughen our entry requirements, particularly these family visas, which is how this suspect entered the country. Each applicant needs to be judged on their own merits independent of any family ties they might have in this country. The fact that they have family here is not a good indicator of their potential to become good citizens. I just have a problem when they start introducing religion into the equation.

And I want to point out that the suspect did not come from Trump's list of naughty countries in his original travel ban from back in January. He came to us from Bangladesh.

Yes, I'm using this idiot because of the following.

1. ISIS said they wanted to infiltrate the refugee program with their fighters. So we knew they were trying to immigrate here.2. The NYC truck driver that ran over all those people a few months ago came here on a "LOTTERY VISA". He put his name in a hat and was picked from that hat to get his visa. That's all he did to get "selected". No other vetting was done. They he chain migrated 15 more "family members" into the country based off his non-vetted visa lottery winnings.3. The kid yesterday was one of the chain migrated "family members" to come here off of a (wait for it, wait for it....), yup a lottery visa. That's 2 terrorist attacks on NYC in the last year when there was none for 15 or so years there preceeding.

So you may not think that ISIS is targeting small countries like Uzbekistan, Kirgistan, Bankladesh, etc for the foothold into the U.S. through the Visa Lottery but I sure do. Its their stated goal to infiltrate and attack from within. Its been a long time since we've had a war on our shores (save for Pearl Harbour) but I think it is coming. Just like in real wars, what I think we are seeing now is the probing of our defenses and readiness to respond to the larger assault that is being honed to a very sharp edge.

Sorry to be so "doom and gloom" on a Wednesday but its due.

Re: NYC Attack

Posted: Wed Dec 13, 2017 1:46 pm

by Aseahawkfan

Well, I can't agree. We're American. We don't punish an entire group for the actions of one man. Fact is that Muslim terrorists and tyrants are killing more Muslims than Westerners. They believe in a religion like most of the Abrahamic religions that believe there is only one way to do things. If you're not doing things that way, then someone may have to kill you. I believe given time the Middle East will go the way of Europe by moderating their religion to a modern viewpoint that will allow peace. It's not going to happen until they have something to lose like a prosperous life. It's not hard to recruit insane people from an impoverished group to do insane things like bombings and the like.

I do think we need to better educate Americans on the concerns with Islam like their view on apostasy, freedom of religion, their view of Israel (haven't met a Muslim yet that trusted Israel, though some do like Jewish people) and how they can treat their women and children in the West. I think most Muslims are open to the changes. Most of them are tired of living in lands where they will be killed for an alternate viewpoint. Also all Muslims are not alike in their belief. Often their beliefs are moderated by their national culture as well.

I don't like the idea of treating an entire group of mostly good people differently because of a handful of psychopaths. It would be like judging all blacks based on gangs or all whites based on the KKK or neo-Nazis. It's not how I want to operate as an American. It's not what we believe in or should believe in.

Muslims for the most part make good citizens that want to work, take care of their families, and have a quality life. They don't like to commit crimes or standout in a group. It's unfortunate that certain individuals buy into religious viewpoints that are extreme and cause them to do extreme violence. But that group is fairly small not including Civil Wars in their nations.

I won't try to sell people that Islam is a religion of peace even though they say Islam means peace. It's obvious that's not how it really works. It is a religion of conversion aimed at uniting and controlling large groups of people like most old world religions that haven't been moderated to a modern viewpoint. But the people from those areas are still humans first. They do not enjoy being war zones or killing or oppressing others. They mostly want to manage their lives as that is hard enough for most people including all them folks.

I want to tighten illegal immigration, while still ensuring we provide a succor against the evil of the world. We still prove that one nation can stand strong against tyranny, not change due to external or internal terror, and show why our values are some of the greatest in history that made an entire world want to be free and Democratic. Americans don't change our views because of terror. We don't punish groups for the actions of individuals or small groups. It's why I continue to support the 2nd Amendment regardless of mass shootings and why I don't want to target certain people because of a small number of extremists. We don't suddenly give up rights or prejudice our immigration against certain nations because of individuals or small groups of scumbags.

Re: NYC Attack

Posted: Wed Dec 13, 2017 1:51 pm

by Aseahawkfan

idhawkman wrote:Yes, I'm using this idiot because of the following.

1. ISIS said they wanted to infiltrate the refugee program with their fighters. So we knew they were trying to immigrate here.2. The NYC truck driver that ran over all those people a few months ago came here on a "LOTTERY VISA". He put his name in a hat and was picked from that hat to get his visa. That's all he did to get "selected". No other vetting was done. They he chain migrated 15 more "family members" into the country based off his non-vetted visa lottery winnings.3. The kid yesterday was one of the chain migrated "family members" to come here off of a (wait for it, wait for it....), yup a lottery visa. That's 2 terrorist attacks on NYC in the last year when there was none for 15 or so years there preceeding.

So you may not think that ISIS is targeting small countries like Uzbekistan, Kirgistan, Bankladesh, etc for the foothold into the U.S. through the Visa Lottery but I sure do. Its their stated goal to infiltrate and attack from within. Its been a long time since we've had a war on our shores (save for Pearl Harbour) but I think it is coming. Just like in real wars, what I think we are seeing now is the probing of our defenses and readiness to respond to the larger assault that is being honed to a very sharp edge.

Sorry to be so "doom and gloom" on a Wednesday but its due.

ISIS is targeting everywhere including here and Europe. They will find any insane person and try to light a fuse under them. So are anarchists, racist groups. gangs, and the like. You can't pick out who will go crazy. Las Vegas shooter some insane guy we can't even explain why he did what he did. I don't see you talking about regulating all guns because nutjob went looney and killed 50 people. Or did you suddenly become pro-gun control and we should start running mental checks on all middle-aged white men? Or maybe only all middle-aged white men that lost money in Vegas?

Fact is 99.99999% of Muslim immigrants do not engage in terrorism or extremism. Many are learning to survive in America and barely doing so. No use making this whole thing that much harder. We should be working with them to ensure they understand this is a safe haven. They should tell us if anyone appears to be losing their mind in their community, though many won't because they feel ashamed when it is their child or relative. We gotta try.

Re: NYC Attack

Posted: Wed Dec 13, 2017 5:01 pm

by idhawkman

Aseahawkfan wrote:Well, I can't agree. We're American. We don't punish an entire group for the actions of one man. Fact is that Muslim terrorists and tyrants are killing more Muslims than Westerners. They believe in a religion like most of the Abrahamic religions that believe there is only one way to do things. If you're not doing things that way, then someone may have to kill you. I believe given time the Middle East will go the way of Europe by moderating their religion to a modern viewpoint that will allow peace. It's not going to happen until they have something to lose like a prosperous life. It's not hard to recruit insane people from an impoverished group to do insane things like bombings and the like.

I do think we need to better educate Americans on the concerns with Islam like their view on apostasy, freedom of religion, their view of Israel (haven't met a Muslim yet that trusted Israel, though some do like Jewish people) and how they can treat their women and children in the West. I think most Muslims are open to the changes. Most of them are tired of living in lands where they will be killed for an alternate viewpoint. Also all Muslims are not alike in their belief. Often their beliefs are moderated by their national culture as well.

I don't like the idea of treating an entire group of mostly good people differently because of a handful of psychopaths. It would be like judging all blacks based on gangs or all whites based on the KKK or neo-Nazis. It's not how I want to operate as an American. It's not what we believe in or should believe in.

Muslims for the most part make good citizens that want to work, take care of their families, and have a quality life. They don't like to commit crimes or standout in a group. It's unfortunate that certain individuals buy into religious viewpoints that are extreme and cause them to do extreme violence. But that group is fairly small not including Civil Wars in their nations.

I won't try to sell people that Islam is a religion of peace even though they say Islam means peace. It's obvious that's not how it really works. It is a religion of conversion aimed at uniting and controlling large groups of people like most old world religions that haven't been moderated to a modern viewpoint. But the people from those areas are still humans first. They do not enjoy being war zones or killing or oppressing others. They mostly want to manage their lives as that is hard enough for most people including all them folks.

I want to tighten illegal immigration, while still ensuring we provide a succor against the evil of the world. We still prove that one nation can stand strong against tyranny, not change due to external or internal terror, and show why our values are some of the greatest in history that made an entire world want to be free and Democratic. Americans don't change our views because of terror. We don't punish groups for the actions of individuals or small groups. It's why I continue to support the 2nd Amendment regardless of mass shootings and why I don't want to target certain people because of a small number of extremists. We don't suddenly give up rights or prejudice our immigration against certain nations because of individuals or small groups of scumbags.

I may have missed it Asea, but what are you Not agreeing with? That we should make immigration merit based and those that are admitted are vetted to discover if they want to add to the collective American dream or something else?

Re: NYC Attack

Posted: Wed Dec 13, 2017 5:05 pm

by idhawkman

idhawkman wrote:Yes, I'm using this idiot because of the following.

1. ISIS said they wanted to infiltrate the refugee program with their fighters. So we knew they were trying to immigrate here.2. The NYC truck driver that ran over all those people a few months ago came here on a "LOTTERY VISA". He put his name in a hat and was picked from that hat to get his visa. That's all he did to get "selected". No other vetting was done. They he chain migrated 15 more "family members" into the country based off his non-vetted visa lottery winnings.3. The kid yesterday was one of the chain migrated "family members" to come here off of a (wait for it, wait for it....), yup a lottery visa. That's 2 terrorist attacks on NYC in the last year when there was none for 15 or so years there preceeding.

So you may not think that ISIS is targeting small countries like Uzbekistan, Kirgistan, Bankladesh, etc for the foothold into the U.S. through the Visa Lottery but I sure do. Its their stated goal to infiltrate and attack from within. Its been a long time since we've had a war on our shores (save for Pearl Harbour) but I think it is coming. Just like in real wars, what I think we are seeing now is the probing of our defenses and readiness to respond to the larger assault that is being honed to a very sharp edge.

Sorry to be so "doom and gloom" on a Wednesday but its due.

Aseahawkfan wrote:ISIS is targeting everywhere including here and Europe. They will find any insane person and try to light a fuse under them. So are anarchists, racist groups. gangs, and the like. You can't pick out who will go crazy. Las Vegas shooter some insane guy we can't even explain why he did what he did. I don't see you talking about regulating all guns because nutjob went looney and killed 50 people. Or did you suddenly become pro-gun control and we should start running mental checks on all middle-aged white men? Or maybe only all middle-aged white men that lost money in Vegas?

Fact is 99.99999% of Muslim immigrants do not engage in terrorism or extremism. Many are learning to survive in America and barely doing so. No use making this whole thing that much harder. We should be working with them to ensure they understand this is a safe haven. They should tell us if anyone appears to be losing their mind in their community, though many won't because they feel ashamed when it is their child or relative. We gotta try.

Yes, ISIS is targeting everywhere which means you should be extra careful when considering your immigration rules, laws and screening. Every society is going to have its loons but by no means should we compound our own issues with a whole other factor that adds to the nth degree a larger threat.

Honestly, I don't care where they are from. I want them to be vetted to determine if they are coming here to add to the collective society or to try and destroy it.

Re: NYC Attack

Posted: Wed Dec 13, 2017 10:00 pm

by Aseahawkfan

idhawkman wrote:I may have missed it Asea, but what are you Not agreeing with? That we should make immigration merit based and those that are admitted are vetted to discover if they want to add to the collective American dream or something else?

I'm disagreeing with the higher level of vetting and the removal of family visas. These people rely a lot on family. What I'm seeing more from these bombings and such by individuals is more insanity similar to the Las Vegas shooter than terrorism. These people come over. They find life is much harder here than they thought. A family member like this guy may start to go insane. He tries to do something insane like a bombing or shooting. Then ISIS takes credit. A basic case of insanity gets turned into an ISIS terrorist attack, a bunch of innocent Muslims get blamed as a group, then our illustrious president starts his tirade about vetting and the like. It's better to keep families together because it forms a better support system for them.

Though I want increased focus on illegal immigration, I was never buying into the Mexicans are rapists and the like garbage. I don't even think Trump was saying that so much as pointing out that illegal immigration can lead to criminals crossing our border without being checked. And that isn't a good thing.

But most of these Muslim folk are well vetted. Many get visas because they have a family member vouch for them or they did something useful for the United. I don't see the point of increasing an already very vigorous vetting process.

Re: NYC Attack

Posted: Thu Dec 14, 2017 7:10 am

by Sox-n-hawks

Islamic Extremism in the opinion of this guy anyway, is a result of a group of Tribal people, essentially stuck in the 14th century that suddenly were given access to the entire world via modern technology. They went from terrorizing local tribal villages who practiced different versions of their religion and beliefs to doing the same on a worldwide basis whenever possible. The problem was then compounded when a group of their own attacked the sleeping giant and we rained down hell on their villages. Now there is an entire generation of military age males within the most extreme and hateful sects of the Islamic world that harbor hatred for the sleeping giant and the entire western world. We need to eradicate THAT ideology from this world. There is no place in this world for the kind of hatred terrorists spread.

Don't forget, 9-11 was carried out by LEGAL immigrants and we have yet to make significant reforms to that process.

Re: NYC Attack

Practically every mass shooting that happens in America is committed by people born here.

Re: NYC Attack

Posted: Thu Dec 14, 2017 11:24 am

by RiverDog

Aseahawkfan wrote:I'm disagreeing with the higher level of vetting and the removal of family visas.

I don't think it unreasonable to insist that each applicant be evaluated independently without consideration to family over here.

And as far as vetting procedures go, I'm good with a very rigorious vetting procedure, but what I am against is any reference to religious beliefs or country of origin except as it applies agreed on maximum we would allow from each country. I'm also against Trump's proposal to cut the total number of immigrants allowed into this country unless an argument could be made that they would hurt our economy or social services programs.

And as long as we are on the topic of the effect immigrants have on social services, they actully help in that regard as immigrants tend to be quite a bit younger than the average worker. We can't allow 60+ year old people to enter then immediatly go onto Medicare

Re: NYC Attack

Posted: Thu Dec 14, 2017 1:06 pm

by Aseahawkfan

RiverDog wrote:I don't think it unreasonable to insist that each applicant be evaluated independently without consideration to family over here.

And as far as vetting procedures go, I'm good with a very rigorious vetting procedure, but what I am against is any reference to religious beliefs or country of origin except as it applies agreed on maximum we would allow from each country. I'm also against Trump's proposal to cut the total number of immigrants allowed into this country unless an argument could be made that they would hurt our economy or social services programs.

And as long as we are on the topic of the effect immigrants have on social services, they actully help in that regard as immigrants tend to be quite a bit younger than the average worker. We can't allow 60+ year old people to enter then immediatly go onto Medicare

I'm not sure what type of immigrants you worked with. I work with a lot of Muslims. The current vetting process is not easy at all. It is not easy to bring over families. If this guy made it over, it wasn't on some easy family visa. The only people brought over easy are wives and younger children. If this guy was brought over on a family visa when he was underage, no amount of vetting would have stopped him. No family can foresee their children going insane. It's like the two Boston Bombers that came over as kids, then lose their minds. How can the mother foresee that?

It's still a very small number. If we were getting hit by even more than .01 I'd support the extreme vetting. The percentage of terrorist attacks is .00000001 or lower. It's the occasional madman or organized group. We could just as easily attribute the attacks to our foreign policy decisions as we could some small group of extremist decisions. I don't see folks supporting making less invasive foreign policy decisions to take ourselves off the radar for some small improvement with relations that may reduce our already extremely low number of terrorist attacks. Vetting is good enough without breaking up the vast majority of families that haven't committed any crimes.

Re: NYC Attack

Posted: Thu Dec 14, 2017 1:15 pm

by Aseahawkfan

Sox-n-hawks wrote:Islamic Extremism in the opinion of this guy anyway, is a result of a group of Tribal people, essentially stuck in the 14th century that suddenly were given access to the entire world via modern technology. They went from terrorizing local tribal villages who practiced different versions of their religion and beliefs to doing the same on a worldwide basis whenever possible. The problem was then compounded when a group of their own attacked the sleeping giant and we rained down hell on their villages. Now there is an entire generation of military age males within the most extreme and hateful sects of the Islamic world that harbor hatred for the sleeping giant and the entire western world. We need to eradicate THAT ideology from this world. There is no place in this world for the kind of hatred terrorists spread.

Don't forget, 9-11 was carried out by LEGAL immigrants and we have yet to make significant reforms to that process.

That's part of the problem. Not all of it, but definitely part of it. Some of these people have real political issues involving America. We did a lot of nation building in the Middle East as well as our support of Israel. We weren't having as many problems prior to the establishment of Israel and our support of them. Since we don't plan to change that support, the Middle Eastern Muslim nations will have to accept it at some point...we hope. We did a lot of strange things we don't learn about in America that the Middle Eastern people do learn about. When you talk to foreign people, you hear some strange tales including names and verifiable evidence of our interactions in the Middle East that weren't well-explained in America. Those people remember and distrust interactions with America based on some of what we've done in their nations prior, some of it that led to the death and tyranny of their citizens.

To put it in laymen terms, some Middle Eastern nations have very real beefs with America not based on on religion. Grudges I understand and would feel the same way about had it been done to America. Our government plays some very dirty games in some places in the world. Sometimes we help, sometimes we're supporting some very evil people for goals related to stability and control of a region for reasons unrelated to ethical behavior or the promotion of our values. It's the old, "He may be a bastard, but he's our bastard" policy. And sometimes we just pick a side that doesn't win and the other side holds a grudge. It's much more complicated than the simplistic "Muslims hate us for our freedom" tagline they tried to sell us during the Bush Jr. Era.

Re: NYC Attack

Posted: Thu Dec 14, 2017 8:18 pm

by Sox-n-hawks

I don't really care what their "Beef" is with the the US. Terrorists are the enemy, regardless of race, creed religion or national origin. Their actions cannot be justified.

Re: NYC Attack

Posted: Fri Dec 15, 2017 6:26 am

by RiverDog

Aseahawkfan wrote:I'm not sure what type of immigrants you worked with. I work with a lot of Muslims. The current vetting process is not easy at all. It is not easy to bring over families. If this guy made it over, it wasn't on some easy family visa. The only people brought over easy are wives and younger children. If this guy was brought over on a family visa when he was underage, no amount of vetting would have stopped him. No family can foresee their children going insane. It's like the two Boston Bombers that came over as kids, then lose their minds. How can the mother foresee that?

It's still a very small number. If we were getting hit by even more than .01 I'd support the extreme vetting. The percentage of terrorist attacks is .00000001 or lower. It's the occasional madman or organized group. We could just as easily attribute the attacks to our foreign policy decisions as we could some small group of extremist decisions. I don't see folks supporting making less invasive foreign policy decisions to take ourselves off the radar for some small improvement with relations that may reduce our already extremely low number of terrorist attacks. Vetting is good enough without breaking up the vast majority of families that haven't committed any crimes.

I work with immigrants from all around the world. About the only area of the globe that I haven't came in close contact with immigrants from is Australia, New Zealand, etc, which includes Muslims. As a matter of fact, I have a very good Muslim friend who immigrated here from Iraq that came and spent several hours with me while I was in the hospital immediately following my knee surgery. And I don't just consider them my employees. We're good friends, many of us coming from numerous countries like Peru, Vietnam, Bosnia, et al going out and watching a Seahawks game at a local watering hole, doing stuff with families, etc. The point I'm trying to make is that I'm not just throwing out a canned line ("some of my best friends are black" is one I used to hear from my dad) just to validate my position. I truly do have a very clear idea of immigration from a much different point of view than others might have.

I do not know the specifics of our current vetting procedures. I was merely stating what I felt was right, in particular bringing entire families over. I feel that each applicant be judged on their own merits without regard to other family members already in this country. But I agree with you about the percentage of terrorist attacks. We'd have to virtually cut off all immigration if we didn't want anymore attacks, and even that wouldn't insulate us against a well motivated person that wanted to do some damage from entering the country illegally.

My biggest rub with Trump is his stance on immigration and race relations. If not a racist, he's an extremely biased person, and not the type of leader I want as my POTUS. I'll admit that I'm probably working with the cream of the crop regarding my close immigrant friends, but I've seen enough immigrants that are not as educated or motivated as my friends are to give me the impression that this fear of immigrants that Trump is promoting is irrational and better characterized as a phobia.

Another note: At work on Fridays during football season, a very large number of our people will wear Seahawk jerseys to work even though they don't know the first thing about the game. And if we win, they'll make a point to come up to me and say "how about them Hawks" or something because they know that I'm a huge fan. They just want to be like the rest of us, to be accepted. They want to be Americans. It's pretty hard not to get emotionally attached to them, even for a cold hearted SOB like me.

Re: NYC Attack

Posted: Fri Dec 15, 2017 7:15 am

by Hawktawk

Not to muddy the waters but I will. Terrorism is awful but cops say things like Vegas are not “terror related”

Excuse me? I read an account from a man who was released from the hospital and he described a wall of lead moving towards him and knew he was about to be shot . That’s terror.Trump wants to ban entire populations of countries, people of the Muslim faith. But tens of thousands die from gun violence annually and we can’t even ban bump stocks.It’s the elephant in the living room.

Re: NYC Attack

Posted: Fri Dec 15, 2017 1:13 pm

by Sox-n-hawks

Hawktawk wrote:Not to muddy the waters but I will. Terrorism is awful but cops say things like Vegas are not “terror related”

Excuse me? I read an account from a man who was released from the hospital and he described a wall of lead moving towards him and knew he was about to be shot . That’s terror.Trump wants to ban entire populations of countries, people of the Muslim faith. But tens of thousands die from gun violence annually and we can’t even ban bump stocks.It’s the elephant in the living room.

The leading cause of death in America is heart disease. Let’s ban processed foods and laziness. People are profiting off of slowly killing us.

Homicide by firearm is listed as #50 by the CDC.

Some studies show gun homicides have dropped by as much as 49% since 1993

Re: NYC Attack

Posted: Fri Dec 15, 2017 2:48 pm

by RiverDog

Hawktawk wrote:Not to muddy the waters but I will. Terrorism is awful but cops say things like Vegas are not “terror related”

Excuse me? I read an account from a man who was released from the hospital and he described a wall of lead moving towards him and knew he was about to be shot . That’s terror.Trump wants to ban entire populations of countries, people of the Muslim faith. But tens of thousands die from gun violence annually and we can’t even ban bump stocks.It’s the elephant in the living room.

It should be called domestic terrorism. The KKK is a domestic terrorist group. The Timothy McVeigh Oklahoma City bombing event was an act of terrorism. But the media will quite often drop the term when it involves domestic groups or events, part of the scare tactics to make us believe that all bad things come from international sources.