Friday, November 23, 2012

Charles Manson... Superstar?!?

Heres a warm-up for the Nicholas Schreck Interview on StarCityRadio. (Nov. 25, 2012, 8PM) It's a Documentary Schreck made in 1989 called "Charles Manson Superstar".

From Wikipedia:"Charles Manson Superstar" is a documentary film about Charles Manson, directed by Nikolas Schreck in 1989. Most of the documentary (the entire interview) was filmed inside San Quentin Prison. Schreck and Zeena narrated the segments while images were shown, and music played in the background. There was brief footage of Spahn Ranch, and a short clip of James M. Mason being interviewed about the Universal Order, and Manson. Olivier Messiaen's "Death and Resurrection", Bobby Beausoleil's "Lucifer Rising",Krzysztof Penderecki's "Apocalypsis", and Anton LaVey's "The Satanic Mass", and Manson's own songs "Clang Bang Clang" and "Mechanical Man" from the album LIE The Love and Terror Cult, were played during the film.To Me, the film shows itself to be very much Pro-Manson, but I'll leave it up to the viewer to decide for themselves.It does make me wonder about the objectivity of Schreck's new book on the case, which from what I've read, has some very interesting theories on the TLB murders. I'm just wondering if he has some kind of evidence to back up his theories.

I'm hoping Brian Davis will ask Schreck to back up his theories with fact. Whether you agree with Nikolas Schreck or not, it's certainly going to be an interesting Interview.

Thats why i'm looking forward to this interview...If theres some facts behind the conjecture I'm all Ears. And Mr p I don't have that problem,I'm using Adobe and its always worked fine for Me, I guess some other Folks have had Problems with the file freezing up on them but I don't know what reader they're using.

Matt I typically use Acrobat pdf reader but the reader for pdf I downloaded for the Schreck book was Ilivd or something like those 5 letters. It also downloaded some other shit along with the new pdf reader so I deleted the reader and all associated files.(uninstalled)

i have read schreck's new book and find his theories plausible. i wish he had more sources but i believe his main source was manson himself. yes schreck did some pretty nasty things in the past such as the 8-8-88 celebration but he appears to have grown up and at least his book has many avanues we can all explore on forums/blogs.

The most interesting thing for me in the documentary "Charles Manson Superstar" is the pic at 39:16 that is purported to be Atkins knife found sticking out of the chair cushion. I've read that knife wasn't found until 2 months after the crimes and I've also read that pic is a fake and the knife was planted.

Finding accurate info about that pic and/or that knife is pretty difficult.

Sunset, Susan's knife was mentioned in the First Tate Homocide Report. They found it under a chair cushion:

#4, A "Buck", clasp type knife found under the seat cushion of an overstuffed chair, which was located in the living room seven feet south of the north wall of the living room and four feet east of the west wall of the living room. This chair is marked "C" in addendum number 7. For a list of fingerprint lifts and eliminations see addendum number 8 of this report.

See if you can pick out our gal. She's got a dog sitting in front of her.http://www.google.com/imgres?hl=en&sa=X&tbo=d&rlz=1I7DLUS_en&biw=1006&bih=540&tbm=isch&tbnid=PmBCYdnNrZMJXM:&imgrefurl=http://srpaulina.blogspot.com/2007/12/helping-prisoners.html&docid=-q6Zj8jqz7BleM&imgurl=http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_l5XttUJEWTk/R1Exbw4fDeI/AAAAAAAAAqA/r3il9KJPpPY/s1600-R/cst%252Bnh%252Bprison%252Bdog%252Bprogram%252Bjoe%252B085%252B%252BSMALL.jpg&w=722&h=398&ei=Xl2yUMi7NMbX0QHkwYCQBA&zoom=1&iact=hc&vpx=212&vpy=160&dur=933&hovh=167&hovw=303&tx=167&ty=115&sig=106699451447793975688&page=1&tbnh=134&tbnw=270&start=0&ndsp=14&ved=1t:429,r:1,s:0,i:91

I am gonna skip the hoopla tonight. I am old and tired and just flat out don't like Schreck and so as such am unwilling to let him or his ideas be a part of my life. I suppose that could be called anything from wimpiness to bigotry, but truly one of the pleasures of becoming a grumpy old man is that you can tell the parts of the world you don't like to piss off.

But I would ask this one question of everyone who will listen tonight. I asked it of Lynyrd recently - when does motive become moot?I mean if you accept that Lizzie Borden whacked her stepmom and dad, does it matter if she did so because of financial desire or lesbian fallout or whatever?If you accept that Oswald did it, and 49 years later there is still no solid proof of a second gunman, then does it matter if Lee did if out of rage or ego or delusions of grandeur? He did it because he was an asshole, pure and simple.So finally, if you believe Charlie told Tex to go 'chainsaw massacre' on Cielo and Waverly, 44 years later does it really matter what specific prickly burr was up Charlies ass on 8/8/69? Race war, drug burn, robbery, Melcher payback, Mafia hit, etc etc. Would the pubic care, or would history change if somehow it could be proved that the murders were done for Reason Two or Reason Three?It's like a blog world parlor game.No question the killers were caught and will die in jail.And for 99.99% of us no question that Manson was the force behind the killings. And he will die in jail.Manson will take his delusions and denials to the grave with him because they are his only currency, the only thing that keeps him relevant.I'm just sayin...out of intellectual curiousity it is fine to pursue motive theories. But a dose of reality should be part of the dialogue too. I loved the line in Friends where Joey says, "It's like a cow's opinion, you know - mooooot".

Picking? Me? Naw, I say I say, just offering up an unsolicited, and most certainly minority opinion at least here, that maybe after all this time the question of motive has become somewhat moot.

If Lizzie did it she did so because she was a bitter bitch. And if Lee Harvey did it alone he did so because he was an asshole in a thousand different ways - including beating his wife.And if Manson did in fact give Tex the orders to kill then I am comfortable with the explanation that he did so because he too was/is an asshole galore - just a delusional miserable prick. It works for me.

I gave it my best shot too, but with the audio issues, I just couldn't stay focused.I left around 9:10.Every time things started getting good, the sound went off.So, very unfortunate.There were probably just too many people loading the server.

Katie I have my doubts about R,L. Not beingInvolved in some for of illegal activity she had an estate valued at 2.6 million dollars in1969 roughly 7 million today seems an awful lot of money for a dress shop ownerI just recently read Shrecks original MANSONFile from 1989 was very unimpressed not sure if I'm willing to fork over 85 dollars to a racist Satanist

Even if She was that might not have anything to do with the murders. It might...but it might not. There is such a thing as coincidence, unless a link can be proven its all supposition. Boy I hope He gets that Podcast up soon.

Schreck stopped just short of claiming that William Garretson was really a mastermind mafia millioniare dequised as a dog sitter. I gguess their are things even Schreck won't claim.....................nah-h-h.

Also, the property on the right of the la Bianca's was brought up a few times...not much info on it except it was donated to the Catholic Church...

I know a guy that rented the la bianca house in the '70s....he was always freaked out by the stuff that went on at the "big mansion" on the right...he told me some stories but they are best left at just that...stories...

Katie"I can't imagine what illegal activity Rosemary was involved in, raking in money hand over fist, and no one on earth knew about it."

No ONE knew she had $2 million either...her strip mall dress shop wasn't so full of customers that people thought she could turn that kind of coin. have you ever heard of any unique Rosemary Labianca designs? No, her dress shop bought wholesale and sold retail, did alterations, etc. Ir was located in the same strip mall that the Gateway Market was in. Not exactly Rodeo Drive. And she had a partner to split the proceeds with. You think she cashflowed enough to bank $2 million?

Shreck discusses how the LAPD were surprised to learn that the LaBianca house phones were tapped.

I've always wanted to ask this - has there ever been any developed speculation that Rosemary could have been in the sex business in some capacity. A high end call girl service perhaps? I've read that she was rather sexually adventurous herself. Would that explain the infamous 'black book' item?

Johnny, I haven't had time to listen to the podcast. Been busy the last few days. Thanks Brian for expediting that podcast. I know you worked overtime for that. Many thanks!! :)

Johnny, you said in an earlier post that Rosemary's dress shop was just in a strip mall.

Back in the 60's, the strip malls were new. They were the up and coming thing. You've probably seen pictures of what it looks like now...slumlord stuff. But back in its day, the strip malls were packed. Prior to that, you had to go downtown to the finer stores, look for a parking space, maybe even pay for parking and it was a hassle. The strip malls were closer to neighborhoods and had easier access, with the same fine clothing they sold downtown. So don't brush Rosemary's store off as a "Goodwill Center". She sold high quality high end clothing.

Now...correct me if I'm wrong...but didn't Schreck say in his book that Rosteau went to meet Sebring on August 8th at Cielo Drive to drop off a large drug shipment, but he was unable to because his "supplier" was out of town? The supplier I'm assuming was Rosemary??

Leno & Rosemary didn't leave town to go to Lake Isabella until August 9th to retrieve their boat.

There are too many "facts" that are not right in this book.

I will listen to the podcast with an open mind when I get a chance. But I won't accept opinions and assumptions not based on factual events.

BTW on the video Charles Manson Superstar, Schreck says that the Waverly Drive house was formerly owned by Walt Disney.

It was not the Waverly Drive house Disney owned, but the house they lived in previously at 4053 Woking Way. Disney used to own that home and it was a virtual palace. But the LaBiancas couldn't afford it, so they moved into Mama's house on Waverly Drive.

katiewhy do you think anyone else would accept opinions and assumptions not based on factual events?

yep, that decades old Charles Manson Superstar got the Disney House wrong. Along with others who recited that factoid. Anything else in error?

you say the LaBianca's couldn't afford it? imagine that, but didn't she own that 'high end' dress store that was making all that money?

Rosemary may not have 'left town' until the 9th but that doesn't mean she was easily reachable on the 8th if Rosteau was trying to get ahold of her. When he went looking for her she may not have been around.

okay, as to all those factual errors in book after you read you can discuss 'em.

Is there any proof that "The Mafia" did in fact visit Paul Watkins and put him up in a fancy hotel? Remember this is the part where Crocket called Watkins and told him to get out of there. Why would Crockett of all people know anything about the mafia unless of course this is the Death Valley branch of the mafia?Maybe it's just me but I always roll my eyes when someone blames something on "The Mafia".Remember the Archie Bunker episode when a nice mafia gentleman came to Archie's door and told him to keep quiet?Frankly, I never saw anything bad about the mafia. We got all those great Jimmy Cagney movies about the mafia? The mafia never messed with anybody but other mafia members. They would have shunned Charlie anyhow because he talked to much.

Just listened to the Podcast last Night and it was just as interesting as I thought it would be. Schrecks Theories tie up some loose ends if They're true but at the same time Most of the Facts seem to come from Manson Himself and from People Who don't want to be identified (is Mr. x Robert evans?). While Manson Himself is probably the only Person who knows the real story of what Happened do I trust Him to tell Anyone the Absolute Truth? I'd love to sit down and read the whole thing but its too expensive for my right now. Maybe It will end up in a local library someday and I can read it for free.

Matt ProkesThat is one thing that Nickolas Shreck is doing for people who want to research the case. He is arranging to put this book in a number of Libraries.

He is also going to be releasing a US version at some point. The purpose of releasing this current version is to get it in the hands of serious readers of the case.

From Cielo Drive came a great term: 'Helter Skeptic.'

"...The first comprehensive study of Manson's life, times, crimes, and thought, this is the ultimate guide to the Manson mysteries, portraying the human being behind the media-created monster's many masks.Drawing on police evidence suppressed during Manson's trial, Schreck exposes the "Helter Skelter" legend as one of the twentieth century's greatest cover-ups, unveils the hidden Mafia drug-dealing background of the "Manson murders" and traces the underworld connections linking the victims to their killers. The author's recent conversations with Manson and others directly involved in the psychedelic era's apocalypse allow the true story kept secret for decades to be told at last.Since its publication, The Manson File - Myth And Reality Of An Outlaw Shaman has inspired a grassroots movement known as "Helter Skeptic" which aims to spread public awareness of the book to dismantle the "Helter Skelter" theory argued by prosecuting attorney Vincent Bugliosi."

Thanks MattP. I listened to a large portion of the Schreck interview today and I have to say that the man is very well spoken articulate and has a good vocabulary. Things I like in a man. HA HA.

And he does have some very interesting hypotheses, but unfortunately he can't back them up. At least not on the interview. I'm assuming not in the book either.

To say someone came to him with vital information regarding these murders (someone who hasn't revealed this to anyone else I'm assuming) and he can't divulge their identities isn't valid proof to me.

If I don't agree with his assessments, it's because I haven't seen any valid proof of them. If there was any tangible evidence of this new information, I'd grab onto it like a bulldog with a bone. LOL. But there are inconsistencies.

If the Cielo Drive murders were just Tex's "mistake" why did 5 people end up being shot, stabbed and bludgeoned beyond recognition? That doesn't sound like a mistake to me.

If Charlie didn't order the murders at Cielo Drive, why did he ask if they had remorse when they got back?

If Cielo Drive was all about a drug burn, why is it that none of the 3 girls have said that? They have all described the same thing: they climbed the wall, entered the house, asked for money, then started killing. Not one of them has mentioned trying to score drugs. If that was the point of the visit to Cielo Drive that night, wouldn't one of them say that?

As far as the LaBianca's are concerned, I still don't see any evidence that Rosemary was selling drugs. Some relative (who isn't related to Rosemary's family??? I don't get that) tells him that Rosemary was selling acid and she gave him her contacts? If this relative knew this information when she was murdered, why not tell the police about it? Why hide it? And why was there no evidence in their home, her car or her office that she was a big time drug dealer? I think there would be some evidence.

Jay Sebring's hair styling business was a front for drugs? Jay Sebring had gone International with his styling products. I really don't think it was a front. His styling products are still are on the market today.

And one more question: If Rosemary & Jay were such big drug dealers, why was she rich and he was always broke?

Schreck certainly doesn't sound like a nut does He? I'm trying to leave what I feel about his Beliefs(or his former Beliefs)at the Door and just concentrate on what Hes saying. Like You Katie I sure think one of the Girls would have said something if the Murders went down the way Schreck says they did. Maybe not back in the 70s but why not now...what do they have to lose at this point?

It took Schreck 25 years to get it all wrong.Rostau had no relationship with Sebring. It was Rostaus flighty GF who knew what both Rostau and Sebring were up to individually. She then connects them in her mistaken reality. Rostau knew Frykowski but not Sebring. Schreck takes the two of them and ties them together and also enrolls them both into the mafia. Just for fun he then enrolls Rosemary into the mafia as well. After all, Leno was Italian wasn't he? Hint, Hint, nudge, nudge. Italians are all mafia aren't they?I love the part about Rosemary and Leno being ridden to the Gateway store safe and back to their Waverly home.Somehow Leno is broke and in debt from gambling but yet he has a safe full of money. Schreck then escalates Joe Dorgan's status. As a straight Satan member this implies that Dorgan..............well Schreck is off and running and never stops. He has the FBI, CIA, Mafia and Straight Satans all running around Hollywood like the Keystone cops. Oops, I mentioned the Keystone Cops. I shouldn't have done that because Schreck will entwine them also into the murders. You have to be careful mentioning things to Schreck for he makes everything cummulative no matter how seperate they are as individuals. All the murders in Hollywood history are all one big uninterrupted single crime drama with everyone knowing everyone. Schreck doesn't know when to back off. He's a snowball going down hill in Hollywood only it doesn't snow in Hollywood! Oh and I forgot.....the boat that Leno left on the roadside. He was going to put the boat up but got murdered while he was reading the paper. Duh!

Interesting Mr P, you say that it was Charlene McCaffrey Rastau's live in Girlfriend and also the Receptionist/Secretary for Jay Sebring gets it all wrong. She knew them both very very well. One well enough to be his live in girl and the other to work with on a daily basis.

This schrek deal has really struck a nerve with some people.....Helter Skelter seems a fairytale with mind control and spining watches and reattached weiners and reviving dead birds.....and on and on......a drug burn sounds more likely considering everything else going on in the vicinity of all involved. Not to be morbid, but when all these sources finally kick the can, we can all find out with whom Mr. Schrek was conversing.

Helter Skelter or Helter Skeptic....I'll take the latter at this point. we all know 'who dunnit' it is the 'why dunnit' that fascinates me.

one thing that Shreck points out in that podcast, there is a world of difference between someone who sits behind a keyboard -like myself and others- and those that have gone out and done the first person interviews with former and current manson members, retired police officers, show biz types who knew the victims/manson/, the underworld types who knew rastau et al.Shreck spent over 25 years on this. he will be the first to tell you that he still doesn't have all the answers. what the book represents is what he has found to be true to a point BUT that further research needs to be done.

i just hope that those who style themselves as researchers/writers will take the opportunity to go forth and continue forward.

unless of course you are a Helter Skelter type. then the case is solved and all questions have been answered.

what the heck did DA Aaron Stovitz mean when he said to Col Scott circa 2004, and lets give the devil his due here that was an excellent interview:

"“Hey Son, your interest is grand, and you aren’t wrong about Manson being wronged, at least legally, but before you go get too stressed, ask yourself- don’t you think he’s happier now that Vince made him who he is?”

johnnyseattle said...Interesting Mr P, you say that it was Charlene McCaffrey Rastau's live in Girlfriend and also the Receptionist/Secretary for Jay Sebring gets it all wrong. She knew them both very very well. One well enough to be his live in girl and the other to work with on a daily basis.

How do YOU know she got it wrong?(end quote)

Poiroit replies:

Because Rostau stated in police interview he didnt know Sebring, that he only knew who he was. Rostau said he knew Frykowski quite well in that same interview. Ms McCaffrey assumed Sebring knew Rostau because she knew both when in fact they didnt know each other as friends. That relationship never had time to develope because of the murder of Sebring.

I will not buy Shreck's book because he enjoys creating the fantastical. He is too casual with facts and links things that are seperate and is prone to be grandiose. But I'll keep my mind open. If you believe him fully then fine. Maybe you know things I don't. I still have my eyes open and my ears listening.

Mr PFirst off, i do not believe everything in the Shreck book. I believe some of it, some of it I will accept on faith, and other parts I need to see the source documents or independent verification. And lets be honest here, many reputable non fiction writers -award winning types- use un-named sources as support for their stories. If over used or if the author hasn't been proven credible in his earlier work then the story suffers. As long as it is labeled as such, i have no issue with it.

So you mean to tell me that Joel Rastau only tells the truth when talking to the Police?

As an honest broker of information, shouldn't you also put in why -per Shreck- that Joel Rastau had a very good reason to downplay his connection with Jay Sebring? A very logical reason stemming from a real fear of one day ending up with a 22 slug in the head and stuffed in the trunk of a car parked outside of LaGuardia Airport might make it seem a whole lot easier to downplay certain relationships. A limited hangout, ie admit to the Voytek relationship but deny the shadier one? A fear that came to fruition? Anyone doubt that Rastau was involved as a drug dealer and had underworld connections?

Now you mention in detail that you have issues with Shreck's credibility and then in the same post you say your mind is open? How can that be? It wouldn't be with me.

i'll give you a for instance. now that i have heard both Alissa Statman and Stephen Kay I have come to the conclusion that Alissa was wrong. It's not just a 'she said and he said' standoff situation. If it had happened as she wrote, Stephan Kay would have mentioned it forever more in subsequent parole hearings to show that Krenwinkle was not suitable for parole during the 80's and 90's. He never did. Moreover, the story made him look heroic as Statman told it. Given that, the fact that he stills categorically denies it happened tells me in fact that it didn't happen. Which probably explains why she felt on safe ground to write the story as she did. AS SUCH, i would have a hard time giving her the open mind treatment. So can you tell me that given your feels toward Shreck you are going to give him a true 'open mind' or has your mind already been made up. if so, that's fine. Free country, all of that. But don't tell me you have an open mind...By the way, I love the moniker Hercules Poiret. It is not lost on me.

Ms Statman mafia? nah, Mr P. I was just giving you a for instance -and my rationale- of an author who I would need more from to give me credible information. So if you haven't read the book I have a hard time understanding how you can disclaim it unless you have preconceived notions. And I want to make clear, I didn't mean to come off snarky. I have read many of your posts before and I respect you. So let me get that out there. You are one of the good ones. Take care buddy and hope to see you around here and Star City.

Johnny I had listened to Schreck on the podcast several times and will again. I did enjoy his interview. My opinion of him is not the be all, end all nor am I the most knowlegable. If you enjoy Schreck's book then fine. That's why most of us are following the blogs. I wouldn't follow this stuff if it wasn't enjoyable but i'm still trying to get the money to get Hendrickson's book. Maybe we should get up a group in here and all go in on the higher priced tomes.

FRIENDS

"Charlie Manson is a five foot seven schizophrenic, who if it weren't for the murder of Sharon Tate, would never be known or discussed. And I'm not saying he isn't funny and entertaining. I'm saying he's a dime a dozen criminal-class punk, who had the good fortune of running into some middle class pseudo-revolutionary white girls." -- Tom G

"The simple and undeniable truth, is that Charlie and the gang were/are the biggest idiots, morons and imbeciles on the planet." -- Leary7

"Them fucking fruitcakes could not pour piss out of a boot, with the bottom written on it."--Harold True