This is from Paul Daugherty on Cincinnati.com. He's using some interesting statistics about Rivera as evidence that Aroldis Chapman would help the Reds more as a starter than closer. Whether you agree with that or not (or even care), these things are from an angle I hadnt considered before. How big an impact did Rivera REALLY have in the all important one run save? The kind pitchers like him are paid to convert? Cue yelling Yankees fans in 3, 2, 1..........GO!

"Chapman will get far more starts than he would appearances in one-run, ninth-inning save situations.

Still not sold? A stat from my pal Joe Posnanski:

During his career, Mariano Rivera converted 140 of 158 one-run save chances, in the ninth inning. That’s a conversion percentage of .886. During the 2000s, according to Baseball Prospectus, the major league average was .848.

Posnanski writes, “The average team with that lead would have been expected to hold the lead in 134 of those 158 games. With Mariano, the Yankees held the lead six more times over 16 seasons.’’

Roll that around in your seam head. The greatest reliever in history, the Muhammad Ali of closers, directly accounted for six more Ws than the major-league norm. In 16 seasons. For a team that was winning a lot of games in those 16 years."

Roll that around in your seam head. The greatest reliever in history, the Muhammad Ali of closers, directly accounted for six more Ws than the major-league norm. In 16 seasons. For a team that was winning a lot of games in those 16 years."

Yet, the most pertinent living eulogies yesterday did not come from the orchestrated press conference. In a fitting coincidence, the Braves were the opponent and it has become accepted wisdom the difference between the Yankees, not the Braves, being a dynasty at the end of the last century was one man — the son of a poor Panamanian fisherman.

“I would have two more rings if it wasn’t for Mariano Rivera,” said Atlanta bullpen coach Eddie Perez, the Braves’ backup catcher when they lost the World Series to the Yanks in 1996 and ’99.

Take yourself back to the eighth inning of Game 4 of the 1996 World Series. Atlanta was representing the NL for the fourth time in the last five Fall Classics and was the defending champs. The Braves had beaten St. Louis by a combined 32-1 to win the final three games of the NLCS, won the first two World Series games by a cumulative 16-1 score and were leading the Yanks two games to one and Game 4 6-3 when Mark Wohlers was asked to make a two-inning save.

Wohlers was 26, Andruw Jones 19, Chipper Jones 24, and Tom Glavine, Greg Maddux and John Smoltz were all 30 or younger. At that moment it was inconceivable to believe the dominant team of the era was in the other dugout to some large extent because of the guy who would pitch the bottom of the eighth, who ironically would become

Haha, man, you put a lot of work and research into that post zac. Dont you realize we dont care? And btw, does Eddie Perez really think that the whole reason his team lost was Rivera? Did Rivera start and bat? Play the field? Sounds like tongue and cheek from a guy whos mind is on the pen beause its his busniess. Lets not forget, also, that YOU would probably have "two more rings" if your boy hadnt blown game 7 in 2001, and blown game 4 of the ALCS in 2004. And youre kind of driving home the point of the article. The article was written to compare how a dominant pitcher like Chapman might possibly impact the team in a greater way starting as opposed to pitching in only one inning. Who is more valuable to a team: a guy who pitches 7 innings and gives up 1, or a guy who goes one shutout inning? You guys worship Rivera so much, I think you fail to recognize that his impact was much more psychological than statistical, as the figures in the OP imply. Furthermore, your postseason stats/bragging are irrelevant, as the article was more heavily about regular season trends when you look at the numbers 134 out of 158. The question wasnt what did he do in a few PS games, but what did he do on balance to GET his team there. Turns out not all that much overall, above what the MLB average was. In other words, someone else could have done about as good a job. Your reverance is psychological, not statistical. Teams were winning the WS long before closers were even a thought, but SP's have always been a requirement, and the Giants of last year lost their closer, and still won it all. In other words, Rivera is not all hes craked up to be. Without guys like Sabathia and Wells no one even knows who he is. And with the staff you have in NY this year, youre liable to find out what its like to have the Godfather and no one else out there. Youll find out then, how valuable he really is. For an example, refer to game 7 of the 2004 ALCS when NYY brought in Rivera trailing 9-3 and Joe Buck's comment was "... and the Red Sox could care less."

I dont care what you THINK troll, I started the thread because I think its funny. I laughed at it, and continue to do so. You and your sidekick seem to forget that this is A RED SOX FORUM. If you want to laugh at us amongst yourselves, go to a Yankees forum. Meanwhile, we will laugh at you here, and no, we will NOT play fair. We will use double standards, we will tilt the tables, we will make fun of the Yankees without basis or provokation, and enjoy every moment of it.

I dont care what you THINK troll, I started the thread because I think its funny. I laughed at it, and continue to do so. You and your sidekick seem to forget that this is A RED SOX FORUM. If you want to laugh at us amongst yourselves, go to a Yankees forum. Meanwhile, we will laugh at you here, and no, we will NOT play fair. We will use double standards, we will tilt the tables, we will make fun of the Yankees without basis or provokation, and enjoy every moment of it.

I dont care what you THINK troll, I started the thread because I think its funny. I laughed at it, and continue to do so. You and your sidekick seem to forget that this is A RED SOX FORUM. If you want to laugh at us amongst yourselves, go to a Yankees forum. Meanwhile, we will laugh at you here, and no, we will NOT play fair. We will use double standards, we will tilt the tables, we will make fun of the Yankees without basis or provokation, and enjoy every moment of it.

I dont care what you THINK troll, I started the thread because I think its funny. I laughed at it, and continue to do so. You and your sidekick seem to forget that this is A RED SOX FORUM. If you want to laugh at us amongst yourselves, go to a Yankees forum. Meanwhile, we will laugh at you here, and no, we will NOT play fair. We will use double standards, we will tilt the tables, we will make fun of the Yankees without basis or provokation, and enjoy every moment of it.

I'm the troll? That's pretty funny.

For once we agree!

Enjoy yourself then, since not much else is happening otherwise on the field, with any of your teams of late. And BTW, the Yankee Pitching isn't bad; it's the lineup; not that I should bother having a meaningful conversation with you, of course.

This is from Paul Daugherty on Cincinnati.com. He's using some interesting statistics about Rivera as evidence that Aroldis Chapman would help the Reds more as a starter than closer. Whether you agree with that or not (or even care), these things are from an angle I hadnt considered before. How big an impact did Rivera REALLY have in the all important one run save? The kind pitchers like him are paid to convert? Cue yelling Yankees fans in 3, 2, 1..........GO!

"Chapman will get far more starts than he would appearances in one-run, ninth-inning save situations.

Still not sold? A stat from my pal Joe Posnanski:

During his career, Mariano Rivera converted 140 of 158 one-run save chances, in the ninth inning. That’s a conversion percentage of .886. During the 2000s, according to Baseball Prospectus, the major league average was .848.

Posnanski writes, “The average team with that lead would have been expected to hold the lead in 134 of those 158 games. With Mariano, the Yankees held the lead six more times over 16 seasons.’’

Roll that around in your seam head. The greatest reliever in history, the Muhammad Ali of closers, directly accounted for six more Ws than the major-league norm. In 16 seasons. For a team that was winning a lot of games in those 16 years."

Would be in worth a fig if the other teams they compare Mariano against had the same person relieving for the past 19 years.

Only a statistician using weak stats can try to diminish Mariano or his importance. I see some problems with this post (though I will admit it is thought provoking)...

1) Why only one-run games? Mariano was better than all closers in 2 and 3 run games as well.

2.) You will have a hard time convincing anyone that when the Sox fell short in 2011 (Paps wasn't lights out) that a Mo like closer wouldn't have put the Sox in the playoffs.

3.) Pointing to a playoff game (like game 7 in 2004) and saying Mo can't help the Yanks because it's a blowout isn't a strong argument. That would be similar to blaming a pitcher on his off day.

4.) The stat Mariano's presence earned the Yanks 6 more wins in 16 seasons is suspect. In other words a great closer provides a team one more win every three years than an average closer... I'm sorry but it makes no sense. Maybe I'm just stubborn on that one.

That being said, there is little question a dominant starter is "worth" more than a dominant closer. The innings alone makes a starter more valuable.

Only a statistician using weak stats can try to diminish Mariano or his importance. I see some problems with this post (though I will admit it is thought provoking)...

1) Why only one-run games? Mariano was better than all closers in 2 and 3 run games as well.

2.) You will have a hard time convincing anyone that when the Sox fell short in 2011 (Paps wasn't lights out) that a Mo like closer wouldn't have put the Sox in the playoffs.

3.) Pointing to a playoff game (like game 7 in 2004) and saying Mo can't help the Yanks because it's a blowout isn't a strong argument. That would be similar to blaming a pitcher on his off day.

4.) The stat Mariano's presence earned the Yanks 6 more wins in 16 seasons is suspect. In other words a great closer provides a team one more win every three years than an average closer... I'm sorry but it makes no sense. Maybe I'm just stubborn on that one.

That being said, there is little question a dominant starter is "worth" more than a dominant closer. The innings alone makes a starter more valuable.

A cogent argument. To wit; Mariano has the top WAR by FAR among relievers, but is ranked only 252 in this category amongst all players. I'm not really fond of the WAR stat, but it is consistent & revealing within the context of this thread (not that that was the OP's intent, who, was trying to encourage NYY posters with the 3..2..1 stuff, then did an about face when a comment was made that he didn't like, falling back on the THIS IS A RED SOX FORUM card)

Mariano was great but he also blew 3 post seasons... Cleveland , Arizona and 2004.

Babe Ruth, Ty Cobb, & TW also failed 1/2 the time. TW stunk in his 1 WS. Sandy Koufax & Pedro blew key PS games as well. And don't get me started on Trevor Hoffman and Joe Nathan. They're all human. You have to give the opposition credit too (It's the Majors, after all), especially against a guy with a PS 0.7 ERA & the lowest career regular season ERA by FAR (2.2. min 1000 IP) since the deadball era (80+ yrs, Wilhelm is next post-deadball at 2.52).

Baseball Reference uses a measure known as fan-elorater to rank players. While all measures are flawed, it has Rivera as the top ranked reliever in the Pitcher category at 27; the next reliever is Trevor Hoffman at 216, although Wilhelm, who wasn't a purereliever (He was a starter for a few seasons), is at 56.

Is there something wrong with a Red Sox fan recognizing that Rivera is/was a great closer??

What he did isn't as impressive as how he did it. He could afford an occasional mistake because he was so overpowering when he DIDN'T make a mistake. During his last year in Boston the second best closer in during MR's tenure (that would be Paps) was a heart attack waiting to happen. A walk here, a single there, a long fly ball to the fence, then two men LOB. Every outing was an adventure. At the same time Rivera was having 1-2-3 innings.

During this time Rivera was overmatching some of the best hitters in baseball in some very clutch situations. Sure, occasionally someone caught up with him but on the whole there's nobody I'd rather have had closing games than Mariano Rivera.

While I've always had my doubts about the value of the ordinary specialist-closer at the same time when a team has someone of the capability of Rivera, a money-in-the-bank closer, I have NO DOUBT about HIS value.

Is there something wrong with a Red Sox fan recognizing that Rivera is/was a great closer??

What he did isn't as impressive as how he did it. He could afford an occasional mistake because he was so overpowering when he DIDN'T make a mistake. During his last year in Boston the second best closer in during MR's tenure (that would be Paps) was a heart attack waiting to happen. A walk here, a single there, a long fly ball to the fence, then two men LOB. Every outing was an adventure. At the same time Rivera was having 1-2-3 innings.

During this time Rivera was overmatching some of the best hitters in baseball in some very clutch situations. Sure, occasionally someone caught up with him but on the whole there's nobody I'd rather have had closing games than Mariano Rivera.

While I've always had my doubts about the value of the ordinary specialist-closer at the same time when a team has someone of the capability of Rivera, a money-in-the-bank closer, I have NO DOUBT about HIS value.

Disagree; Paps in his prime was nearly Rivera's equal. His command went south some after toying with a sinker & pitch count efficiency (ala the great Radatz in the 60s, who got a sore arm as a result)

Actually, what was most impressive was 2009, when MO had a painful shoulder-rib injury in the PS that restricted his top velocity to 87-88, yet still managed to get it done.

Anecdote about Radatz; Mantle nicknamed him the Monster; legend has it his lifetime #s against him was 1 for 63 with 44-47 Ks! And this includes his sore armed seasons! (Actually, it was 12Ks in 16 ABs)