Wont happen. Mid table in the prem, the odd good performance mixed with the odd bad one. That is enough for the club. The squad we have is underachieving (in terms if the performances). Not consistent enough

HonkyTonkWont happen. Mid table in the prem, the odd good performance mixed with the odd bad one. That is enough for the club. The squad we have is underachieving (in terms if the performances). Not consistent enough

Absolutely, this is an elite level sporting team and budget (and ticket prices) to match.Bottom line, this is not about 'match day experience' it's about winning. I'm happy to accept falling short of our goals in the short term if I can see where it's going, the bigger 'vision' if you like, I just can't see it right now...............Mr Ellis needs to own this, you are responsible

For the last 12mths i've scorned this kind of talk and tried to be one of the more balanced posters on here, saying give it time, we'll see, we lost because of this that and the other.....
But i now have to admit that i regularly fantasise about winning the 150 million rollover on the Euromillions, buying the club....and sacking JK, Mapletoft, Osborne and (sadly) Minty on day one of ownership. (Nev and Rowntree get a pass).

[...and Day two i'd be ripping up the contracts with Greene King, DHL and Adidas. Day three would be getting the club motto changed from Nunquam Dormio to "Wake the **** up". Day four i'd offer PDJ a contract where he was paid to be placed in stocks behind the south stand before each match.]

Well it means we won't be in the Champions quarter finals! So that is failure. 3/3 in the Prem is kind of on the fence. Still think we need to see injured players back & firing. It's not looking good though, you can sense calamity about to unfold.

And since this wasn't a league game, it doesn't affect our end of season finish.

Good thing that the champions cup is played with entirely different rules and squads to the premiership. For a moment I was worried that today's game might have some bearing on where we are as a team and how likely we are to do well in the league.

I'm by no means firmly in the "JK must go immediately" camp, but nit-picking like that isn't going to change the mind of anyone who disagrees with you.

Understand being a stepmother may be challenging as is being a Quins fan but please no need to always capitalise your posts - agree we were awful and our discipline again let us down. The Yarde story will unfold but on balance we have not travelled well for last few seasons and I feared this result.

And since this wasn't a league game, it doesn't affect our end of season finish.

Good thing that the champions cup is played with entirely different rules and squads to the premiership. For a moment I was worried that today's game might have some bearing on where we are as a team and how likely we are to do well in the league.

I'm by no means firmly in the "JK must go immediately" camp, but nit-picking like that isn't going to change the mind of anyone who disagrees with you.

I'm not looking to change anyone's mind, just pointing out a few pertinent facts. Today's result has no bearing on our league position.

Dark PiesFor the last 12mths i've scorned this kind of talk and tried to be one of the more balanced posters on here, saying give it time, we'll see, we lost because of this that and the other.....
But i now have to admit that i regularly fantasise about winning the 150 million rollover on the Euromillions, buying the club....and sacking JK, Mapletoft, Osborne and (sadly) Minty on day one of ownership. (Nev and Rowntree get a pass).

[...and Day two i'd be ripping up the contracts with Greene King, DHL and Adidas. Day three would be getting the club motto changed from Nunquam Dormio to "Wake the **** up". Day four i'd offer PDJ a contract where he was paid to be placed in stocks behind the south stand before each match.]

We've all gotta have a dream...

Haha - sounds like a dream I can get behind. Let's start a Euro Millions syndicate.

That was awful. Why change a pack that looked decent last week (apart from the injury at TH)? Gray hasnt looked prem standard since his injury and Ward and Gunn were two of our best players last week. Robshaw a pretty good stand in at 7.
Care looked distracred and appeared to bottle a tackle on Hughes for the first try. 2nd try was good defence from Wasps and a couple of lucky bounces then finished off well. A decent 3rd try for Wasps and it was all over.
Even so Horwills decisions to not take repeated easy kicks with a ref who was happy to keep pinging them without risk of a yellow was odd, as our inabity to move a maul meant no real punishment for repeated infringement and Wasps just spoiled for fun. And for his dropping the kick off to 2nd half. Sign of a skipper with more than a game on his mind?
Something is fundamentally wrong at Quins and either players or management needs to change because too often the key men dont show up. Care Roberts Matthews Luamanu repeat offenders. Horwill Brown and Robshaw unusually poor today. Ward Visser and Marchant at least showed up. Wish Marler hadnt shown up. Pillock Joe back. Needs a slap. Cant see any of the current management being strong enough to stand up to our leading lights.
Dropping Yarde for being late? I'd be more impressed if he had subbed Marler and Care to prove a point yesterday.

Dark PiesFor the last 12mths i've scorned this kind of talk and tried to be one of the more balanced posters on here, saying give it time, we'll see, we lost because of this that and the other.....
But i now have to admit that i regularly fantasise about winning the 150 million rollover on the Euromillions, buying the club....and sacking JK, Mapletoft, Osborne and (sadly) Minty on day one of ownership. (Nev and Rowntree get a pass).

[...and Day two i'd be ripping up the contracts with Greene King, DHL and Adidas. Day three would be getting the club motto changed from Nunquam Dormio to "Wake the **** up". Day four i'd offer PDJ a contract where he was paid to be placed in stocks behind the south stand before each match.]

We've all gotta have a dream...

Haha - sounds like a dream I can get behind. Let's start a Euro Millions syndicate.

+1

"I disapprove of what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to bleat about it all over the internet"

And replace with who?
Does the blame only lie at JKís feet?
What has changed so much that we can clearly point the blame at one 1 person?
If someone can give a clear answer as to its all one persons fault and hereís how to fix it, Iím all ears.

How is it for season apon season we can go from excellent and exciting one week to clueless the next?
So many last week said the6 enjoyed the game and we looked good, it was like a different team yesterday and that cannot be down to one person. Can it?
Please explain how itís down to one person and what the fix is

You're right in what you say, Si. I'm not a fan of JK, but I'm very clear that it is not solely his fault. It's too early to point the finger at NEv and I'm not clear how much blame Easter and Rowntree should take as they are relatively new to the setup.

But when I write 'JK', what I really mean is 'JK, MM & CO' who have been rewarded with promotion for mediocre coaching in the past few years. I think everyone's just become a bit too comfortable.

As for who is available, there are plenty of coaches out there. For example, what about the Kiwi Milton Haig who's done amazing things with Georgia? Ben Ryan? Graham Henry? Nick Mallett?

T-BoneIn all the JK must go threads, the other coaches rarely seem to get any criticism.
Given that we can't defend a maul and have shipped 30+ points five times this season, you'd think Easter might get some more criticism.

Given how poor our attacking maul is and the number of important lineouts we lose, whoever coaches that ought to be getting a bity more stick.

Our attacking play does seem to have improved this season, so whoever coaches that is in credit.

I don't totally agree with this. Easter has taken a fair amount of stick. As has Rowntree. But I do agree that Mapletoft and Osborne seem strangely impervious to criticism. As I said in my earlier comment, they are every bit as much of the problem as JK.

What is it that people don't unerstand about the DoR role? If it's Easter's fault, or the players' fault, then the DoR should sack the coach or drop the player. Or instil a culture where the players don't think that tackling is optional, or where anyone would dream of showing up late for training. we know the players can play well, so there's something wrong with the setup. Buck stops with the top man.

RodneyRegisWhat is it that people don't unerstand about the DoR role? If it's Easter's fault, or the players' fault, then the DoR should sack the coach or drop the player. Or instil a culture where the players don't think that tackling is optional, or where anyone would dream of showing up late for training. we know the players can play well, so there's something wrong with the setup. Buck stops with the top man.

Exactly.

JK is the man responsible for the performances of the players and also the performances of the coaching staff.

I don't think anyone is saying he's responsible for the poor attack, or the poor defence exclusively. Or that he's responsible for our lineout issues, or even exclusively responsible for the players that are brought in.

But he is responsible for all of the people who are responsible for those separate areas, and he's doing very little about it.

And I think that's because he's comfortable in his position, and so then are all the coaches. It's become a bit of a job for the boys, and that attitude is bleeding into the performances.

So it's not all JK's fault. But getting rid of him is the only way we can start again and actually have some confidence that anything is going to change.

talkshowhost86
I wonder if those who do support the current coaching staff would then still be happy to give JK more time.

Personally, yes. It's where we are at the end of the season that matters, not at any other point.

Quote:

But he is responsible for all of the people who are responsible for those separate areas, and he's doing very little about it.

You assume. He could be searching for replacements as we speak. He could have told them their contracts won't be renewed unless we finish at least 4th this season. He could even have given them notice that they are out of a job when this season ends. None of us know. Or do you?

Similarly, we could do well over the course of this season, suggesting the coaching team don't need changing after every defeat or poor performance.

CookieSitting 7th, out of Europe after 2 games and with 4 of the top 5 still to play in the first half of the season.
No need to panic. Oh no. Let's wait till the end of the season and hope that everything miraculously improves.

Once again, green shoots of recovery trampled on by the same old inefficiencies. There really isn't any change, is there?

I seem to recall the same comments last season. You know, the season where we did improve.

talkshowhost86
I wonder if those who do support the current coaching staff would then still be happy to give JK more time.

Personally, yes. It's where we are at the end of the season that matters, not at any other point.

Quote:

But he is responsible for all of the people who are responsible for those separate areas, and he's doing very little about it.

You assume. He could be searching for replacements as we speak. He could have told them their contracts won't be renewed unless we finish at least 4th this season. He could even have given them notice that they are out of a job when this season ends. None of us know. Or do you?

Similarly, we could do well over the course of this season, suggesting the coaching team don't need changing after every defeat or poor performance.

So you'd happily see the current coaching team take us down before we did anything about it?

I'm not saying we'll get relegated, but this theory of not being able to do anything until the end of the season is ludicrous.

And if you really think that JK is doing something about the coaching, I'd love to know where that optimism comes from considering we seem to have hired one person from outside the club in his entire time as DOR.

Other than that it's just ex players or existing coaches moving around the club perpetuating the same problems that have got us into this position in the first place.

I'd sack the skills coach right away - far too many handling errors every week and the kicking in the 22 like it's a rugby league game and we're on the sixth tackle is ridiculous (is this skills or attacking coach?).
We are going nowhere except backwards. As I keep saying, there is no consistency in our performances. Every time JK says training has gone really well, we get thumped and yesterday was no exception.
Time For Change #TFC
RleQ

talkshowhost86
I wonder if those who do support the current coaching staff would then still be happy to give JK more time.

Personally, yes. It's where we are at the end of the season that matters, not at any other point.

Quote:

But he is responsible for all of the people who are responsible for those separate areas, and he's doing very little about it.

You assume. He could be searching for replacements as we speak. He could have told them their contracts won't be renewed unless we finish at least 4th this season. He could even have given them notice that they are out of a job when this season ends. None of us know. Or do you?

Similarly, we could do well over the course of this season, suggesting the coaching team don't need changing after every defeat or poor performance.

So you'd happily see the current coaching team take us down before we did anything about it?

I'm not saying we'll get relegated, but this theory of not being able to do anything until the end of the season is ludicrous.

And if you really think that JK is doing something about the coaching, I'd love to know where that optimism comes from considering we seem to have hired one person from outside the club in his entire time as DOR.

Other than that it's just ex players or existing coaches moving around the club perpetuating the same problems that have got us into this position in the first place.

But yeah...let's wait until the end of the season.

You really struggle with reading what's written, don't you?

No, I won't be happy if anyone "takes us down". I assume you won't be happy if the current coaching setup actually improves our position? You just want them out?

I don't know what they're doing about the coaching, which is the point I made. You seem to know that they're doing nothing, so why not share your information?

And what do you suggest the club does to change the coaching setup, that will have a positive impact this season?

Harleys Evil Step MumDid we REALLY improve???.....Scraped into the CC, lost most big games....Europe seemed over in a flash....Our International contingent lost value across the board (apart from Brown I suppose)

Yes. Our league position improved, and as you point out, we're in the top tier European competition this year. How can those metrics be used to show that we didn't improve?

Given we're 7th, Wasps are below us and the fact we still have to play most of the teams above us in the first half of fixtures, I'd say we'll finish 8th. Given we're out of Europe already, this would be dreadful.

So you're basically saying we'll improve on our current form and achieve the same as last season? Not much logic to back that up and not particularly aspirational.

Harleys Evil Step MumDid we REALLY improve???.....Scraped into the CC, lost most big games....Europe seemed over in a flash....Our International contingent lost value across the board (apart from Brown I suppose)

Yes. Our league position improved, and as you point out, we're in the top tier European competition this year. How can those metrics be used to show that we didn't improve?

what's the point of getting in it if the same old deficiencies mean you only stay in it for 160 minutes??

Given we're 7th, Wasps are below us and the fact we still have to play most of the teams above us in the first half of fixtures, I'd say we'll finish 8th. Given we're out of Europe already, this would be dreadful.

So you're basically saying we'll improve on our current form and achieve the same as last season? Not much logic to back that up and not particularly aspirational.

If we finish 5th, that's an improvement. People on here complain that we don't improve; last season we did, and people still complain. But none of us know until we've played all 22 games, exactly where we'll finish. We could get relegated, we could finish first, but I doubt either will happen.

It could also be argued that people looking to sack the DOR after every defeat isn't particularly aspirational.

talkshowhost86
I wonder if those who do support the current coaching staff would then still be happy to give JK more time.

Personally, yes. It's where we are at the end of the season that matters, not at any other point.

Quote:

But he is responsible for all of the people who are responsible for those separate areas, and he's doing very little about it.

You assume. He could be searching for replacements as we speak. He could have told them their contracts won't be renewed unless we finish at least 4th this season. He could even have given them notice that they are out of a job when this season ends. None of us know. Or do you?

Similarly, we could do well over the course of this season, suggesting the coaching team don't need changing after every defeat or poor performance.

So you'd happily see the current coaching team take us down before we did anything about it?

I'm not saying we'll get relegated, but this theory of not being able to do anything until the end of the season is ludicrous.

And if you really think that JK is doing something about the coaching, I'd love to know where that optimism comes from considering we seem to have hired one person from outside the club in his entire time as DOR.

Other than that it's just ex players or existing coaches moving around the club perpetuating the same problems that have got us into this position in the first place.

But yeah...let's wait until the end of the season.

You really struggle with reading what's written, don't you?

No, I won't be happy if anyone "takes us down". I assume you won't be happy if the current coaching setup actually improves our position? You just want them out?

I don't know what they're doing about the coaching, which is the point I made. You seem to know that they're doing nothing, so why not share your information?

And what do you suggest the club does to change the coaching setup, that will have a positive impact this season?

I can perfectly fine you condescending sod. You said wait until the end of the season whatever happens. Literally about 3 posts up. So with that, and unless you can show somewhere where I've said I'd want them sacked if we did well then I think you need to stop chucking around that sort of bilge in your glass house.

We know they're doing nothing because nothing is changing on the pitch. If they were doing something, we'd see some evidence on the pitch.

And I've already said what I'd do with the coaching set up to improve it. Get rid of most of them, especially those who have been at the club churning out the same dross for the last 5 years or so.

Harleys Evil Step MumDid we REALLY improve???.....Scraped into the CC, lost most big games....Europe seemed over in a flash....Our International contingent lost value across the board (apart from Brown I suppose)

Yes. Our league position improved, and as you point out, we're in the top tier European competition this year. How can those metrics be used to show that we didn't improve?

what's the point of getting in it if the same old deficiencies mean you only stay in it for 160 minutes??

I think you'll find that we'll be in it for another 320 minutes at least.

Of course we could just aspire to being in the lower tier competition, with a good chance of winning it. What would you prefer?

I can perfectly fine you condescending sod. You said wait until the end of the season whatever happens. Literally about 3 posts up. So with that, and unless you can show somewhere where I've said I'd want them sacked if we did well then I think you need to stop chucking around that sort of bilge in your glass house.

We know they're doing nothing because nothing is changing on the pitch. If they were doing something, we'd see some evidence on the pitch.

And I've already said what I'd do with the coaching set up to improve it. Get rid of most of them, especially those who have been at the club churning out the same dross for the last 5 years or so.

See that Ronald Koeman the Everton Manager has just been sacked...last sentence in the article amused me..'Koeman appeared to have lost the faith of the fans, his players seemed uninspired and the manager himself showed no sign of finding a route out of the current situation'

I can perfectly fine you condescending sod. You said wait until the end of the season whatever happens. Literally about 3 posts up. So with that, and unless you can show somewhere where I've said I'd want them sacked if we did well then I think you need to stop chucking around that sort of bilge in your glass house.

We know they're doing nothing because nothing is changing on the pitch. If they were doing something, we'd see some evidence on the pitch.

And I've already said what I'd do with the coaching set up to improve it. Get rid of most of them, especially those who have been at the club churning out the same dross for the last 5 years or so.

Temper!

Somebody's tired...

Really?

Is that really the level of your debate?

Insults and then when someone calls you on it you form the rather brilliant 'somebody's tired'.

Harleys Evil Step MumDid we REALLY improve???.....Scraped into the CC, lost most big games....Europe seemed over in a flash....Our International contingent lost value across the board (apart from Brown I suppose)

Quinky's going to cling onto that 2 point loss at saints in the final game last season for dear life.

Given we're 7th, Wasps are below us and the fact we still have to play most of the teams above us in the first half of fixtures, I'd say we'll finish 8th. Given we're out of Europe already, this would be dreadful.

So you're basically saying we'll improve on our current form and achieve the same as last season? Not much logic to back that up and not particularly aspirational.

If we finish 5th, that's an improvement. People on here complain that we don't improve; last season we did, and people still complain. But none of us know until we've played all 22 games, exactly where we'll finish. We could get relegated, we could finish first, but I doubt either will happen.

It could also be argued that people looking to sack the DOR after every defeat isn't particularly aspirational.

There is no logic to say we'll improve. Yes, we went from 7th to 6th, but the standard of rugby did not improve at all. That's of greater concern than anything as that's what ultimately brings results. Given that 2 of the teams above us were behind us and look really strong, it's hard to see how we'll finish 5th (or even 6th).

I'm happy to see how things progress over the next month or so, but this nonsensical 'you can only judge at the end of the season' view is a recipe for disaster.

Harleys Evil Step MumDid we REALLY improve???.....Scraped into the CC, lost most big games....Europe seemed over in a flash....Our International contingent lost value across the board (apart from Brown I suppose)

Quinky's going to cling onto that 2 point loss at saints in the final game last season for dear life.

Quinky doesn't base the whole season on any one game. Quinky looks at the bigger picture.

Quinky looks at facts - we finished 6th, we got into the European Cup. Two improvements on the previous season.

Harleys Evil Step MumDid we REALLY improve???.....Scraped into the CC, lost most big games....Europe seemed over in a flash....Our International contingent lost value across the board (apart from Brown I suppose)

Yes. Our league position improved, and as you point out, we're in the top tier European competition this year. How can those metrics be used to show that we didn't improve?

what's the point of getting in it if the same old deficiencies mean you only stay in it for 160 minutes??

I think you'll find that we'll be in it for another 320 minutes at least.

Of course we could just aspire to being in the lower tier competition, with a good chance of winning it. What would you prefer?

Ignoring the churlish retort (unless you genuinely think we'll we the last 4 games, which is the only way we could qualify), yet again you've just made stuff up again. At no point did I say I aspired to being in a lower competition. I want us to be in the Champions Cup and prove more competitive than the shambles of yesterday.

There is no logic to say we'll improve. Yes, we went from 7th to 6th, but the standard of rugby did not improve at all. That's of greater concern than anything as that's what ultimately brings results. Given that 2 of the teams above us were behind us and look really strong, it's hard to see how we'll finish 5th (or even 6th).

I'm happy to see how things progress over the next month or so, but this nonsensical 'you can only judge at the end of the season' view is a recipe for disaster.

I understand what you're saying, but I don't agree with all of it.

I'm happier that we finished 6th than I would be if we'd played better and finished 7th. Others may not be. Ultimately what brings the season's result is how we play over 22 games; we can have a few poor performances (every team does), but simply seeing who's behind us now is irrelevant. This season has thrown up some bizarre results. Look at who's beaten who and there really is very little logic there. We beat Wasps a few weeks ago and they trounced us yesterday.

Hypothetically speaking, what if we now have three or four good wins in the league? We could still implode and tumble down the table.

I get where you're coming from, but we're different - the league is decided over a season and I believe you have to play everyone twice to see how you've improved. Remember, there were some calling for a new DOR before the season started!

But I do respect your stance on this. I just don't entirely agree with you.

Ignoring the churlish retort (unless you genuinely think we'll we the last 4 games, which is the only way we could qualify), yet again you've just made stuff up again. At no point did I say I aspired to being in a lower competition. I want us to be in the Champions Cup and prove more competitive than the shambles of yesterday.

No offence meant Cookie, that wasn't entirely aimed at you. But my point is that we have done well in the lower competition; we were never going to win the senior cup this year. It's good for experience, and as a fan I'm happy to see Quins play against better opponents. In the long run I think the players will benefit.

There is no logic to say we'll improve. Yes, we went from 7th to 6th, but the standard of rugby did not improve at all. That's of greater concern than anything as that's what ultimately brings results. Given that 2 of the teams above us were behind us and look really strong, it's hard to see how we'll finish 5th (or even 6th).

I'm happy to see how things progress over the next month or so, but this nonsensical 'you can only judge at the end of the season' view is a recipe for disaster.

I understand what you're saying, but I don't agree with all of it.

I'm happier that we finished 6th than I would be if we'd played better and finished 7th. Others may not be. Ultimately what brings the season's result is how we play over 22 games; we can have a few poor performances (every team does), but simply seeing who's behind us now is irrelevant. This season has thrown up some bizarre results. Look at who's beaten who and there really is very little logic there. We beat Wasps a few weeks ago and they trounced us yesterday.

Hypothetically speaking, what if we now have three or four good wins in the league? We could still implode and tumble down the table.

I get where you're coming from, but we're different - the league is decided over a season and I believe you have to play everyone twice to see how you've improved. Remember, there were some calling for a new DOR before the season started!

But I do respect your stance on this. I just don't entirely agree with you.

CookieWhy are we condensing this argument into one game? This has been going on for years now.

It's not even a year and a half, and last year was an improvement.

Do you genuinely think last year was an improvement, or is that based purely on the fact that we scraped into 6th by the skin of our teeth?

I accept that in terms of a league finish it was an improvement, but did you think the team actually improved in terms of their performances last season? And do you think they are continuing to improve this season?

Fair enough if you do...maybe I'm missing something. I'd just be interested to see what people think has improved in our play since JK came in, rather than just getting the same answer of 'well we finished 6th therefore we must have improved'.

Ignoring the churlish retort (unless you genuinely think we'll we the last 4 games, which is the only way we could qualify), yet again you've just made stuff up again. At no point did I say I aspired to being in a lower competition. I want us to be in the Champions Cup and prove more competitive than the shambles of yesterday.

No offence meant Cookie, that wasn't entirely aimed at you. But my point is that we have done well in the lower competition; we were never going to win the senior cup this year. It's good for experience, and as a fan I'm happy to see Quins play against better opponents. In the long run I think the players will benefit.

All good. And agreed. We need to improve if we want to compete in the Champions Cup. We can agree on that!

CookieWhy are we condensing this argument into one game? This has been going on for years now.

It's not even a year and a half, and last year was an improvement.

Do you genuinely think last year was an improvement, or is that based purely on the fact that we scraped into 6th by the skin of our teeth?

I accept that in terms of a league finish it was an improvement, but did you think the team actually improved in terms of their performances last season? And do you think they are continuing to improve this season?

Fair enough if you do...maybe I'm missing something. I'd just be interested to see what people think has improved in our play since JK came in, rather than just getting the same answer of 'well we finished 6th therefore we must have improved'.

Mainly based on finishing 6th, as last season the low points were lower than anything I've seen for years, so they balanced out what I thought were some better performances.

I think we've improved again this season - attitude and attack. If we can make some strides with defence and discipline then great.

CookieWhy are we condensing this argument into one game? This has been going on for years now.

It's not even a year and a half, and last year was an improvement.

Do you genuinely think last year was an improvement, or is that based purely on the fact that we scraped into 6th by the skin of our teeth?

I accept that in terms of a league finish it was an improvement, but did you think the team actually improved in terms of their performances last season? And do you think they are continuing to improve this season?

Fair enough if you do...maybe I'm missing something. I'd just be interested to see what people think has improved in our play since JK came in, rather than just getting the same answer of 'well we finished 6th therefore we must have improved'.

Mainly based on finishing 6th, as last season the low points were lower than anything I've seen for years, so they balanced out what I thought were some better performances.

I think we've improved again this season - attitude and attack. If we can make some strides with defence and discipline then great.

But that mixture of very low points and the odd high point is exactly what we were seeing under COS, so I'm not really sure I'd describe the continuation of that as an improvement.

As I've said before on here I think we were very lucky Northampton were such a shower last season, and I think our move from 6th to 7th was as much about them having a shocker as it was about us actually getting any better.

And as for this season, I think last night and the London Irish game have been as bad if not worse than anything we saw last season, and we haven't really had the sort of performances to balance that out the other way. We could point to the Wasps win, but that seems to have been proved to be a flash in the pan very quickly.

I agree that elements of our attacking play have looked better, but not sure about attitude. I think the rank inconsistency suggests a real issue with attitude, and the discipline issues seem to back that up. Coupled with a defence that has gone backwards this season, and the fact that our home record has very quickly been torn up, I think it's very charitable to suggest we've improved.

The one thing in JK's favour remains the fact that we've got a lot of players out injured so he can point to that as an excuse. But whilst the injuries are bad, none of that really excuses a performance like last night's 'effort' and I just think a better DOR would be doing more to ensure that performances like that are 1 in a million, rather than 1 in 3.

Ive read many players books, reading Bomb's at the moment, and a recurring theme is one where not all the team buy into the coaching ideas. This obviously leads to problems well documented on here about playing structures not being adhered to. Bring in a respected hard line DOR and his coaches, who rule by fear but good man management. Any non believers are discarded (easier at international level) or re educated. Maybe harsh but effective. Saracens have done this, Tigers in the past and Exeter are doing it now.
One difficulty we have now is that hardly anybody can be dropped as we are so short of fit bodies.

Ignoring the churlish retort (unless you genuinely think we'll we the last 4 games, which is the only way we could qualify), yet again you've just made stuff up again. At no point did I say I aspired to being in a lower competition. I want us to be in the Champions Cup and prove more competitive than the shambles of yesterday.

No offence meant Cookie, that wasn't entirely aimed at you. But my point is that we have done well in the lower competition; we were never going to win the senior cup this year. It's good for experience, and as a fan I'm happy to see Quins play against better opponents. In the long run I think the players will benefit.

All good. And agreed. We need to improve if we want to compete in the Champions Cup. We can agree on that!

The saddest part of the current very mid table performance goes back the clubs insbilty to recruit a first class DOR given COS gave them stacks of notice and the clubís declaration about scouring the world to get the very best they could.To finish promoting everyone within is a tacit admission they missed the recruitment objective by a mile.Add Ellis statement 5:6 years ago along with COS to make Quins the numbe One club in the world is as far away now as it was then.It is very clear to me the rot starts at the top-JK is just symptomatic of the malaise the whole club is suffering from

You could also add in the Bath & Leicester comparison. Blackadder (courted as a DOR here) started well last season but faded. This term he is showing that he learnt well & Bath are proving to be a very tough outfit. Tigers were in a right mess & sacked two DOR's in one season. Personally I didnt think Matt O'Connor would be the right guy, but he's proving a lot of people wrong, Getting Toomua back fit & some interesting signings has worked wonders & given them a spark. Compare to Quins, where is our new spark? Its not good so far, & as the season goes on we're sliding further towards the 7th-12th area. I still feel though that we need to get Saili, Bothma, & as strong a squad as possible together for a number of weeks before a judgement can be truly made. Having said that, we signed players with known injuries so that goes against the current management. Its very 50/50 but we need to wake up & shake up very very soon. Erring to the Kingston out side here.

So we should not sign any player carrying any sort of injury, even if that injury is just a "normal" rugby injury? Is that how other teams sign players? We're going to wait a long time for our next signing!

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