WTB / WTS / WTT ADSAll Advertisements, including Want to Buy, Want to Sell, Want to Trade, Belong in the MARKETPLACE ONLY. Any new threads posted offering an item for sale, looking to trade or buy an item which are posted outside of Marketplace will be deleted without notice or warning. Existing threads will be moved to marketplace.

Marketplace Feedback RatingsThe Marketplace feedback ratings system is now back. You can now leave feedback for your Buy / Sell / Trade transactions. Instructions on how to leave feedback ratings can be found HERE

This movie is excellent. I haven't done research yet to determine if every single point made was correct, but having been in OK at the time of bombing, I remember a lot of it taking place. I also have been reading the Sipsey Street irregulars blog a lot lately -- aka the guy who broke Fast and Furious -- and have noticed a lot in common with the movie as well.

Anyway, I want to point out a few of the things that stood out the most to me in my viewing.

One of the first cops on the scene was an OKC policeman who rescued at least four people from the rubble and who friends stated had a great deal of documents compiled about the bombing. It is thought that he perhaps saw some things he wasn't supposed to see. One night he was going out of town to store all of the documents in a storage center, when he was found stabbed thirteen times, his wrists bruised from being handcuffed, shot from the top of the head at a downward angle, and found over a mile away from where his car was parked. This was ruled a suicide, and the documents he had compiled were never seen again.

The man I referenced earlier who looked a great deal like someone thought to possibly be John Doe #2, even down to a similar tattoo on his forearm. He was found with bruises all over his body, including the soles of his feet, with a fractured skull in two places, bruises from his hands being cuffed (sound familiar?), and cuts all over his body in what was probably an interrogation of the wrong person. This was ruled another suicide. What was also interesting was OK law enforcement was not allowed to do an investigation into the homicide with access to the cell until six months later, and in the mean time the video camera for that part of the prison malfunctioned, as well as all of the clothes for the man murdered so no blood evidence was present. McVeigh himself contacted the brother prior to his execution and stated that the FBI had to have mistaken him for being John Doe #2.

Footage was shown at the time from local OK media of the sketches the FBI released and the manhunt for John Doe #2, who they now state never exist. Multiple witnesses contradict that claim, ranging from a strip club that Mcveigh entered with him to a downtown mechanic who gave them directions. All of the OKC tv media reported on at least one other suspect being with McVeigh the first day, but then quickly changed their story the next day to match with what the national media and feds were saying. The one exception that continued to report the truth and get to the bottom of what took place for the next year was Channel 4, who was then bought out by the NY Times company and all of the people involved in investigating the OKC bombing stories were fired.

ABC news apparently did a lengthy segment on other accomplices to McVeigh and what all the government was not saying about the attack that was pulled with pressure from the federal government.

Multiple witnesses who were in the building at the time report hearing more than one explosion. A few different experts agreed that the damage done was not possible with one bomb in the manner that the FBI said it was done, including the inventor of the neutron bomb to an Air Force general specializing in the effects of bombs.

A grand jury member of the OKC grand jury attempted to call into question the official government story. When he correctly stated that anyone on a grand jury can call any witness for any reason and wanted to get to the bottom of the OKC event, he was promptly dismissed by the judge.

I had always thought that there were just a few ATF agents there that day, but apparently eye witnesses claim none were there. Three atf agents who claim to have escaped the rubble all had ridiculous stories -- including one who supposedly used his martial arts training to punch down walls! Another claimed he kicked out the top of an elevator to escape, but an investigator after the bombing took place stated the top was still locked and the agent would have had to have fallen five floors straight down first.

Carol Howe, the fed informant, had warned the government that something was about to take place soon, and that Strassmeyer had specifically referenced taking out a federal building. One eye witness came forward and stated that congressman Ernest Istook almost immediately after the bombing that OKC had happened because of Waco, indicating he had some sort of prior knowledge. He later refused an offer to take a polygraph test about whether he had prior knowledge or not. Governor Frank Keeting's brother wrote a bizarre book prior to the bombing about militia groups blowing up an Oklahoma federal building who had the name "Tom McVey" years before it took place.

A document was shown from the FBI head at the time writing to other aspects of the FBI commenting on how the SPLC had informants in Elohim City prior to the bombing. This was the location where McVeigh was at for several months, as well as German intelligence agent Strassmeyer. Strassmeyer was able to escape the nation and avoid arrest for overstaying his visa or being implicated in Elohim City. Apparently the majority of the adults in Elohim City were fed informants of some sort. It is disturbing to see the amount of power the SPLC have with the Feds, and that are basically doing the work of the FBI/ATF for them without the legal oversight.

Whenever the lawyer brother of the murdered man mistaken for John Doe #2 requested that the CIA turn over all documents related to Elohim City, McVeigh, and the SPLC, they refused citing "national security concerns" as the reason why. While it prevented documents from being turned over, it confirmed that some sort of CIA operation took place.

McVeigh's relatives had their phones tapped after the OKC bombing and were recorded asking one another why the media continued to state that McVeigh failed out of Special Forces (Green Berets) try outs when they were under the impression he had passed them and had been recruited by US intelligence. There is also a letter McVeigh wrote his sister stating the same thing. I have a friend who was a Green Beret who said the CIA was constantly recruiting them and what sleazeballs they are, so I know there is a potential link there. What was also strange is that McVeigh's occupation on his death certificate was listed as US Army, even though he had been out of it for years. This may just be related to his last job known though, so I am not sure how that is supposed to work. There is a very good possibility from looking at the McVeigh info, however, that he was attempting to infiltrate militia and pro gun type groups as part of Operation PATCON.

Operation PATCON goes back to at least the 1990s, in conjunction with the SPLC, of infiltrating and compromising militia, pro gun, evangelical, etc groups that the government deemed to be a threat.

A scientists for the FBI who stated that the FBI scientist who had handled the testing material for the McVeigh trial relating to the bomb just basically just made it all up, according to the whistleblower.

There was a great deal of strange things involved in the OKC bombing, but one of the weirdest was a Tulsa cop of 27 years claiming that he received tips from federal agents that Whitewater documents about the Clintons were in the building, which is another fact I have never heard before.

I strongly recommend anyone interested in what happened in OKC, how our federal government operates domestically, or just interested in how much stranger truth is than fiction check this out. It is only about twenty dollars from Amazon, and well worth it. If I had to sum up the movie with one theme, it would be that there is way too much smoke for there to not be some sort of fire.

Sorry! I apologize for the length of the post and was intending for it to be pretty short, but there was just so much shocking info and claims that I just started typing away. Here are some other good sources that say a lot of the same things:

Today the guy who literally broke the Fast and Furious story put up a short paragraph about it on his blog today. He only has issues with a couple things like the arab connection angle and pre-planted bombs, but likes the rest of it.

Glockfan, when you crack the OKC case, Google "TWA Flight 800" and get that one figured out.

I'm not trying to be a dick, and in the end I have no doubt our own government had a hand in OKC, thats how federal police get funding. But so much time has passed that no one but the families of those lost care anymore

Fast and Furious is here, now, today. Those people can still be punished for their crimes. Would'nt your time be better served DEMANDING your congressmen look into F&F now, today?

"The constitutions of most of our states [and of the United States] assert that all power is inherent in the people; that they may exercise it by themselves; that it is their right and duty to be at all times armed; that they are entitled to freedom of person, freedom of religion, freedom of property and freedom of the press." - Thomas Jefferson

Fast and Furious is part of the same broad program that OKC is. I have contacted my congressman and Senators repeatedly about F&F, but unfortunately we are playing with house money in that game. The guy who literally broke the F&F story is spending a great deal of time talking about OKC, and making sure that the next big story that eventually goes viral is how PATCON included OKC and programs like Fast and Furious. Unfortunately, he has also been reporting what is very predictable: that the GOP establishment, for whatever reason, has been pressuring Issa not to go too far and limit his investigation. One can speculate why, but it does not surprise me at all. As regular citizens, our only chance is to make the info go viral and take away as much credibility as possible from groups like the ATF. We certainly aren't going to get much help from our wonderful Republicans in DC.

One can't be mad about F&F without also understanding the other programs that have been associated with it like the OKC operation, as the guy who broke the Fast and Furious story makes very clear. As far as people being punished now for their crimes, the interesting thing is that they both involve some of the same people. The more important thing is the political reality is that Fast and Furious by itself won't cause anyone to get punished as it stands right now, but the understanding in the general public of what all PATCON involved possibly could. If the general public became aware of the pattern of behavior over the years by the Feds and just how many "botched operations" there have been, it would be almost impossible to dismiss Fast and Furious as just a gun running sting that went wrong. It is also important because it shows how complicit the SPLC is in everything, including current and future attempts at taking away gun and speech rights and attacking "right wing extremism" as determined by the SPLC.

Otherwise, the feds wouldn't have put the pressure on to spike the Newsweek article that had already been written a few months ago and set to publish. Again, this is literally the guy who is the reason you and I even know about F&F, and he disagrees with the logic that we should only focus on Fast and Furious:

That was Alan Dulles at the REAL big company, brother John was in charge of state dept. and had his own crew.
I couldn't remember Allen's name,, he was CIA Directer under Ike as I was leaving military service,,, to my knowledge he never really saw my legs either,,, they have ruined several employment opportunities for me,,, but they do keep my ass from dragging on the ground.

Fast and Furious is part of the same program that OKC is. I have contacted my congressman and Senators repeatedly about F&F. However, they are one and the same -- both part of Operation PATCON. The guy who literally broke the F&F story is spending a great deal of time talking about this issue, and making sure that the next big story that eventually goes viral is how PATCON included OKC and programs like Fast and Furious.

You can't be mad about F&F without also understanding the other programs that have been associated with, as the guy who broke the Fast and Furious story that you know about makes clear. As far as people being punished now for their crimes, the interesting thing is that they both involve some of the same people. The more important thing is the political reality that Fast and Furious by itself won't cause anyone to get punished, but the understanding in the general public of what PATCON involved possibly could. The reason is because it is far too easy to dismiss what happened with Fast and Furious as "just a gun running op gone wrong" instead of a consistent pattern of behavior from federal law enforcement. It is also important because it shows how complicit the SPLC is in everything, including future attempts at taking away gun rights.

Otherwise, the feds wouldn't have put pressure on to spike the Newsweek article that had already been written. Again, this is literally the guy who is the reason you even know about F&F, and he disagrees with your logic:

GF, You and I both KNOW PATCON has long legs and the same old players in OKC are now AG and DHS heads.

But I guarantee you with 100% certainty if you try and frame your argument that Fast and Furious is all one big long, decades old conspiracy to get partriots and gun owners - 99.9% of the people you talk to will report you to DHS!!

Say it to your Rep's and you'll get on a no fly list, and have a 3 day hold on your 4473's

You have to understand, most people are public educated, weak minded idiots that would only put down thier beer long enough to complain if the game was canceled, the EBT card didn't work, or the internets down too long.

Any talk of government conspiracy makes them uncomfortable and if you look into their eyes when you do it, you can actually see them glaze over.

Write/call your reps, letters to the editor and talking with people about F&F as if it were a single issue is the only way you don't get a tin foil hat in the minds of people you do talk to

Oh, I understand how they work. I have never mentioned it when speaking with them, and probably never would until a large enough amount of info circulated with the public. The argument I am talking about as far as Patcon is different from conversing with my reps. I do remember though people saying the exact same thing about Fast and Furious, and how conspiratorial it sounded on the face of it. Now we know that it is actually worse than it first sounded as more facts come out every day, like today's news about a second gun being linked to the murder of an ICE agent.

I actually went back and edited my post above a bit because when I looked at it again it came across as more abrasive than I meant it to sound. Anyway, the problem is that the same guy who broke the Fast and Furious story is reporting that the GOP establishment is intentionally slowing down Issa and having him back off from going for the throat. If that is the case, and I would bet it is, then contacting one's congressman won't do a whole lot of good compared to investing in the same effort towards getting the word out about the SPLC/PATCON/OKC, etc. Believe me, I still have contacted them, and will continue to do so, but without sufficient public outrage, this will get swept under the rug as a gun running op that went wrong. Then we will have the next operation to look forward to that attempts to justify gun control laws.

I don't think we disagree on any of the facts, just on the strategy to implement with the info that is known. I am of the mindset that we are playing a rigged game, so a better course of action is through getting the word out on the internet and to mainstream media when possible about PATCON and OKC. Taking time to contact congress isn't very long, but unfortunately I don't think it is all that helpful in the big picture.

Most of the PATCON stuff is going to all eventually get out at least to an extent, but the question to me is how long will it take and how far it will go. We really could ask the same of Fast and Furious because there is still a great deal of info being hidden by Holder. Even Mother Jones, the leftist rag that it is, seems a bit concerned about the PATCON stuff getting traction:

Vanderboegh is now working on other big scoops. In late November, Newsweek/Daily Beast published a story about a man who worked as a paid FBI informant in the 1990s, going undercover among neo-Nazi and white supremacist groups. But Vanderboegh says Newsweek didn’t run the full story, which he says included damning information about an FBI operation in the 1990s called PATCON (for Patriot Conspiracy) that allegedly involved giving weapons, explosives, and money to neo-Nazis as a way of infiltrating their networks.

Vanderboegh snagged an unedited copy of the Newsweek story and posted it on his blog under the title, "Hiding mass murder behind 'national security.' What Newsweak & the FBI didn't want you to know about PATCON and the OKC Bombing." Vanderboegh claims that the FBI had a role in repressing parts of the Newsweek story, and he's confident PATCON is going to be the next big scandal. (Asked whether the FBI pressured the magazine to cut references to PATCON, Newsweek spokesman Andrew Kirk said, "Of course not." He wouldn't comment on how Vanderboegh might have gotten the story.)

It would be easy to dismiss Vanderboegh's obsession about this latest FBI "scandal" as the healthy imagination of a conspiracy theorist with too much time on his hands. But then there's Fast and Furious.

The Africian truck bombs were of high grade explosives ,and the distance from the truck to the target was MUCH closer in Africia. Blast force drops expotentialy with distance, also in OKC, there were two VERY inmportant support columns STILL STANDING ,with exposed rebar whose concrete covering was "powdered ",instead of cracked and chipped, in front of alot of devestation behind them ,that susposedly was created by the same blast force. I also remember hearng the reports of "stoppages,in the rescue efforts" while eod guys removed unexploded ordance, from INSIDE the Murrow bld.

the exposed rebar and powdered concrete ,plainly seen in most pics from the first reports,tells me that charges were in DIRECT contact with the concrete , If the edges were jagged, and the peices rough, one could think that it was a blast wave that "broke the beam. But to have the concrete beam "dissoloved / powdered " around the exposed rebar indicates direct contact with explosives.
I know this for a fact.

I don't think it matters that much exactly how the bomb was done, V Guy. I think the reason the FBI stuck with the story they did was to make sure everyone thought there was only one bomber and pretend that their sketch release for John Doe number 2 never happened. It was easier to do that when the FBI has been unable to find the tapes recorded that morning, despite a person who was contracted out to make copies of them all swearing that they exist.

FYI though, the inventor of the neutron bomb, a Tulsa police officer with years of experience investigating bombs who was used to help investigate OKC, and an Air Force General who specialized in bombing damage all disagree that this was possible to be done the way the FBI claimed it was, not to mention the FBI whistleblowing scientist who pointed out how the FBI cooked the books on the investigation and the people in the building at the time who swear they heard multiple explosions. As far as the middle eastern bombing, as OHC already pointed out, it was done much, much closer with a far more powerful bomb.

I was watching tv live after the bombing though, and remember what OHC is talking about (the movie also shows the footage) of the crowd being pushed back because another bomb had been found. One explanation was that the ATF had explosives stored there even though they weren't supposed to, but the ATF denies this. Of course, if they are denying it, then they are probably lying given their past, ha ha.

Again though, I don't think this matters that much compared to the rest of the story. The guy who broke the Fast and Furious story has written that the feds love it when the discussion about OKC turns to this issue and away from PATCON because it is a distraction compared to the other parts of the story and a lot less damaging, and I can see why. Which would the ATF and FBI rather have us talk about? How they have been doing all sorts of illegal and immoral things along with the SPLC to discredit gun groups and to take away gun ownership rights, or how the bomb was set off?

I am sure that the mix was augmented by Padilla, not some bomber crew.
Padilla knows what he did; the question is why he has not spilled the beans on alqaeda--it is not as if it would change things much, except for Bill Clintons legacy.

Lets see, the same crew who entered the Twin Towers on 911, also applied the explosives to the columns, posing as painters and janitors, eh?

Why do you just make stuff up and accuse other members of saying it? What purpose ,other than demeaning the poster,or damage control thru disinformation, does what you posted do to further the search for what really happened?
I agree Vguy's post was to get us off topic, but I WILL answer his question, in the spirit of conquering ignorance.-----
The "crew " that wired the World trade centers ,were "electricians" working in the elevator core. Supposedly for a month ,prior ,on weekends,. The cover story was that they were running new comunications trunk lines from the sub basement ,all the way to the top.Just the kind of wiring harness necessary to trigger hundreds of charges in split second delays. I would suspect that a "different crew" would have attached the actual charges to the NEW wiring buss. That way those who did the cabels were not in the know, and would probably be scared to death to speak up, even if DID suspect something. OR migh have already been "visited" or "arkansided".
Quite possibility run by the Izzies that got caught and then released across the way in jersey that morning, having a champaine celebration on a roof top, while filming the events.

Being fair, I can see that Koresh was the beginning of Hillarys attempt to disarm America.
Dems in the current F&F debacle exhibit the same deranged thinking as Maxine Waters and Bill Clinton, the insane dynamic duo. He screwed her, you know.

The OKC deal had to be cooked up by a small group of dedicated Clinton operatives seeking to clean their skirts of the shit that hit after DK.
It is likely that they used alqaeda types or pretended to be Arabs, when they approached McVeigh and the farmer to do the deed to avenge Koresh.

That means the single bomb was in the truck and pretty high grade. That OKC building was a flimsy glass and lightweight concrete structure with a steel frame. McVeigh did not realize the gov't sting operation was hand in glove and helped out the mix with RDX.

What likely happened is that the damn bomb went off, instead of being discovered by agents in the nick of time.

THAT is a gov't op under Clinton.

Bush simply made sure McVeigh never talked about the details before he had a change of heart.

I sincerely believe that there was no crew of demo guys wearing janitor uniforms applying sheet explosives to any columns.

I don't want to get distracted about the bombing issue, but it doesn't matter that much. We can just agree to disagree. I personally think the only reason the FBI came out with the story it did about how the bomb was done because that would have been possible for one person to do alone, which would lead to far less questions about John Doe Number 2 and who else was helping McVeigh.

The other stuff is pretty difficult to disagree with, and it is obvious that this was in a lot of ways a 1990s Fast and Furious predecessor.

the okc fed building was destroyed with a van full of fertilizer, simple as that. this discussion reminds me of the jfk conspiracy. fact is, jfk was shot with a cheap rifle by a former marine. i have been to the site and the shots would have been easy. same with an improvised car bomb, its done every day around the world. if some raghead in crapistan can make a car bomb, cant be too hard.

the okc fed building was destroyed with a van full of fertilizer, simple as that. this discussion reminds me of the jfk conspiracy. fact is, jfk was shot with a cheap rifle by a former marine. i have been to the site and the shots would have been easy. same with an improvised car bomb, its done every day around the world. if some raghead in crapistan can make a car bomb, cant be too hard.

Great, and since we all know that cause the government told us so, lets see the many video tapes the government refuses to release. If it's all true, we should see little Timmy pulling up in the Ryder truck ALONE and walking away. What could be the harm in that?

Hunters, it is a very simple explanation: the FBI, the world's leading law enforcement investigative unit, cannot find the tapes. It is really that simple. Are you some sort of nutjob who thinks the government would ever lie to us or mislead us about something they are involved with? I bet you are even extremist enough to think Obama and Holder aren't telling us the truth about what happened with Fast and Furious, aren't you?