I was recently discussing this issue with a few friends and thought I would bring it up for all to discuss. Many times a question or subject will be brought up by an Orthodox Christian that pertains to Eastern Orthodoxy. As this is an open, public forum, many non-Orthodox will naturally feel inclined to respond. I certainly don't want to sound as if I'm advocating for censure, but many times, though the non-Orthodox poster may well be well intentioned, the responses are often not Orthodox. In order to help ensure clarity, I wonder if it would be possible to either A) have all members choose and state their religious affiliation so other posters can discern the validity of the responses or B) ask that all non-Orthodox refrain from replying to questions having to do with the Eastern Orthodox faith. I mean absolutely no disrespect towards my non-EO friends, but when everyone responds to EO issues, confusion can easily spread, making the replies difficult to discern.

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"The Scots-Irish; Brewed in Scotland, bottled in Ireland, uncorked in America." ~Scots-Irish saying

Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.A hasty quarrel kindles fire,and urgent strife sheds blood.If you blow on a spark, it will glow;if you spit on it, it will be put out; and both come out of your mouth

Obviously I won't vote in the poll, but as for my opinion, I've always been up front with my religious affiliation, even when I would have been better off personally by not disclosing it. I've even changed my username in the past based on the idea that I didn't want to mislead or confuse anyone (Paradosis --> Asteriktos, which means "unstable," so it's like I'm warning you right up front ). Isn't the point of having a "faith" category at the side of your posts so you can identify what faith tradition, if any, you are a part of? Also, aren't all the issues discussed on the forum "EO issues" in some sense? Whether we're talking about politics, evolution, or Jesus Christ, Orthodox Christians are going to approach the subject from an Orthodox perspective, and the majority of the discussion will naturally have an Orthodox tone to it. Those are my thoughts, anyway. And unlike GiC, I'm mostly here to have fun and learn something. Mostly.

Also, can you be a little more specific? Are you suggesting that when a thread is started by an EO, that non-EO's should not be able to post in it? What exactly is an "EO issue?"

My personal inclination is that if an EO asks a question pertaining to the EO faith, non-EO's should refrain from responding. As I say, that's my personal inclination, but I left open the possibility that anyone can answer any question asked as long as they state what faith they belong to. I think it makes good sense to know who's answering so that I can make a better informed decision.

Do my replies answer your questions (I'm being sincere! )

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"The Scots-Irish; Brewed in Scotland, bottled in Ireland, uncorked in America." ~Scots-Irish saying

Obviously I won't vote in the poll, but as for my opinion, I've always been up front with my religious affiliation, even when I would have been better off personally by not disclosing it. I've even changed my username in the past based on the idea that I didn't want to mislead or confuse anyone (Paradosis --> Asteriktos, which means "unstable," so it's like I'm warning you right up front ). Isn't the point of having a "faith" category at the side of your posts so you can identify what faith tradition, if any, you are a part of? Also, aren't all the issues discussed on the forum "EO issues" in some sense? Whether we're talking about politics, evolution, or Jesus Christ, Orthodox Christians are going to approach the subject from an Orthodox perspective, and the majority of the discussion will naturally have an Orthodox tone to it. Those are my thoughts, anyway. And unlike GiC, I'm mostly here to have fun and learn something. Mostly.

Also, can you be a little more specific? Are you suggesting that when a thread is started by an EO, that non-EO's should not be able to post in it? What exactly is an "EO issue?"

My personal inclination is that if an EO asks a question pertaining to the EO faith, non-EO's should refrain from responding. As I say, that's my personal inclination, but I left open the possibility that anyone can answer any question asked as long as they state what faith they belong to. I think it makes good sense to know who's answering so that I can make a better informed decision.

Obviously I won't vote in the poll, but as for my opinion, I've always been up front with my religious affiliation,

You have; in fact I'd like to give you some public recognition. In the past, when I've asked a question and asked for EO only responses, you have always complied and instead, PM'd me with your thoughts/replies. I thought that was very considerate and gentlemanly of you.

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"The Scots-Irish; Brewed in Scotland, bottled in Ireland, uncorked in America." ~Scots-Irish saying

Also, can you be a little more specific? Are you suggesting that when a thread is started by an EO, that non-EO's should not be able to post in it? What exactly is an "EO issue?"

My personal inclination is that if an EO asks a question pertaining to the EO faith, non-EO's should refrain from responding. As I say, that's my personal inclination, but I left open the possibility that anyone can answer any question asked as long as they state what faith they belong to. I think it makes good sense to know who's answering so that I can make a better informed decision.

Do my replies answer your questions (I'm being sincere! )

Are you guys loosing the Chalcedon debates to the OO again?

Truth be known- I rarely visit the OO forum so I have little idea what the current topic is. Although I will say that I have a tremendous amount of love and respect for my OO brothers and sisters.

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"The Scots-Irish; Brewed in Scotland, bottled in Ireland, uncorked in America." ~Scots-Irish saying

I admit that I understand part of what Gabriel is talking about. When I was learning about Taoism and went to The Tao Bums discussion forum, I was totally lost. Not only were there various types of Taoists there, but there were also various types of Buddhists, among other belief systems. It was difficult at times to figure out who was saying what, and it could become a huge jumble of opinion. Having said that, I don't think my posts here detract from the forum, and I think most people can figure out that I'm not Orthodox. But in the interest of keeping things clearer for new comers, in the future I'll try to remember to say at the beginning of posts whether I am giving what I understand to be an Orthodox view or whether I am giving my own non-Orthodox view.

I was recently discussing this issue with a few friends and thought I would bring it up for all to discuss. Many times a question or subject will be brought up by an Orthodox Christian that pertains to Eastern Orthodoxy. As this is an open, public forum, many non-Orthodox will naturally feel inclined to respond. I certainly don't want to sound as if I'm advocating for censure, but many times, though the non-Orthodox poster may well be well intentioned, the responses are often not Orthodox. In order to help ensure clarity, I wonder if it would be possible to either A) have all members choose and state their religious affiliation so other posters can discern the validity of the responses or B) ask that all non-Orthodox refrain from replying to questions having to do with the Eastern Orthodox faith.

This isn't monachos.net or some other such high-Orthodox-theology web site. Why, then, would you take anything that is said here so seriously that we would ever need to ask the non-Orthodox on this forum to keep silent?

"There is a cult of ignorance in the United States, and there always has been. The strain of anti-intellectualism has been a constant thread winding its way through our political and cultural life, nurtured by the false notion that democracy means that “my ignorance is just as good as your knowledge."" Isaac Asimov

I don't know if identification as EO or non EO is actually helpful; there are far too many EO whose beliefs lie on the fringe of the faith's spectrum, and certainly quite a few who offer their opinions as the dogma of the Church without supporting documentation. Personally, I'd rather see a more widely utilized phrase in people's posts: "this is my opinion." Or at least "this is what I think the Church believes."

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"There is a cult of ignorance in the United States, and there always has been. The strain of anti-intellectualism has been a constant thread winding its way through our political and cultural life, nurtured by the false notion that democracy means that “my ignorance is just as good as your knowledge."" Isaac Asimov

I was recently discussing this issue with a few friends and thought I would bring it up for all to discuss. Many times a question or subject will be brought up by an Orthodox Christian that pertains to Eastern Orthodoxy. As this is an open, public forum, many non-Orthodox will naturally feel inclined to respond. I certainly don't want to sound as if I'm advocating for censure, but many times, though the non-Orthodox poster may well be well intentioned, the responses are often not Orthodox. In order to help ensure clarity, I wonder if it would be possible to either A) have all members choose and state their religious affiliation so other posters can discern the validity of the responses or B) ask that all non-Orthodox refrain from replying to questions having to do with the Eastern Orthodox faith.

This isn't monachos.net or some other such high-Orthodox-theology web site. Why, then, would you take anything that is said here so seriously that we would ever need to ask the non-Orthodox on this forum to keep silent?

Why would I take anything said here seriously? Because although we have several comic relief threads and other threads that don't necessarily pertain to Eastern Orthodoxy, or even Christianity for that matter, I do take much of this forum seriously and I'd bet you that Fr. Anastasios, Fr. Chris and many others take it seriously. Look at it this way; if I were to visit an Islamic forum wanting to learn more about Islam, I would not want to see non-Muslims chiming in with their views because, simply put, it's not fair to those who are trying to learn about Islam. And it's not fair to those who are trying to learn about Eastern Orthodoxy either. My gut feeling is that people don't visit this forum to get the Roman Catholic or Jewish or Buddhist or Atheist view of Eastern Orthodoxy and this is why, when it comes to matters of the Eastern Orthodox faith, they should be considerate enough to not to chime in. Most of them are, but there are times when they aren't. And again, because this is a sensitive subject, I want to reiterate that I appreciate the fact that this forum does allow membership to non-EO's and that I mean no disrespect to my non-EO friends.

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"The Scots-Irish; Brewed in Scotland, bottled in Ireland, uncorked in America." ~Scots-Irish saying

I don't know if identification as EO or non EO is actually helpful; there are far too many EO whose beliefs lie on the fringe of the faith's spectrum, and certainly quite a few who offer their opinions as the dogma of the Church without supporting documentation. Personally, I'd rather see a more widely utilized phrase in people's posts: "this is my opinion." Or at least "this is what I think the Church believes."

Which is why I wish our clergy were more active.

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"The Scots-Irish; Brewed in Scotland, bottled in Ireland, uncorked in America." ~Scots-Irish saying

Why would I take anything said here seriously? Because although we have several comic relief threads and other threads that don't necessarily pertain to Eastern Orthodoxy, or even Christianity for that matter, I do take much of this forum seriously and I'd bet you that Fr. Anastasios, Fr. Chris and many others take it seriously.

The forum exists for an exchange of ideas not for abuse, which is taken seriously.

Look at it this way; if I were to visit an Islamic forum wanting to learn more about Islam, I would not want to see non-Muslims chiming in with their views because, simply put, it's not fair to those who are trying to learn about Islam.

And it's not fair to those who are trying to learn about Eastern Orthodoxy either. My gut feeling is that people don't visit this forum to get the Roman Catholic or Jewish or Buddhist or Atheist view of Eastern Orthodoxy

Many people were instructed to say immediately after the Resurrection that Christ didn't rise from the dead and His body was secretly stolen from the grave. Guess that didn't work then and I hope that doesn't work today regardless of how many faith groups visit this forum.

and this is why, when it comes to matters of the Eastern Orthodox faith, they should be considerate enough to not to chime in. Most of them are, but there are times when they aren't. And again, because this is a sensitive subject, I want to reiterate that I appreciate the fact that this forum does allow membership to non-EO's and that I mean no disrespect to my non-EO friends.

As someone once told me on this forum in my early days, if you don't like getting dirty, don't play in the sandbox.

I rather like the fact that non-Eastern Orthodox participate here. At least some of them have valuable stuff to say and fresh/new perspectives on various questions. They also prevent the unthinking "groupthink" you often get when people who go to the same church (or are part of the same non-religious group, for that matter) are discussing issues that aren't specific to their church. Often people just assume that "everybody agrees" on some issue when that's not the case.

It's best, IMHO, that we *all* identify which church we attend/don't attend/what we believe, but I wouldn't pick on the non-EO posters specifically.

Once again, friends and brothers and sisters, I'm not trying to limit discussion nor am I 'picking' on anyone. I value everyone's right to express themselves, but on Eastern Orthodox matters, I don't want their views or opinions. At the very least, I want to know who is saying what.

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"The Scots-Irish; Brewed in Scotland, bottled in Ireland, uncorked in America." ~Scots-Irish saying

And you do know. I try to be careful and If I think that an issue is specifically for EOs I will either not answer or ask permission before I say anything as you saw in the Jesus Prayer Poll thread.

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"For, by its immensity, the divine substance surpasses every form that our intellect reaches. Thus we are unable to apprehend it by knowing what it is. Yet we are able to have some knowledge of it by knowing what it is not." - St. Thomas Aquinas, Summa contra gentiles, I, 14.

I have to admit that I look at the "labels" of each author to verify the "source" of the comment.

Papist, I think you have nothing to worry about. If they don't get that you are Catholic from your "name", or from the avatar you use, or from the information you provide...then the reader is in trouble.

You have never hidden the fact that you are Catholic....although I am confident that in time we will win you over to Orthodoxy!

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Conquer evil men by your gentle kindness, and make zealous men wonder at your goodness. Put the lover of legality to shame by your compassion. With the afflicted be afflicted in mind. Love all men, but keep distant from all men.—St. Isaac of Syria

Permit me a few comments on your comments, Gabriel.Orthodoxy has always been very attractive to people; they are attracted to Orthodoxy, perhaps, by what we know as Grace... That is why they want to be a part of this forum too. But in my opinion, also these people are quite confused by discussions like this one. Besides we are arguing about a lot of issues which seem trite. :[

Better “Let the little children come to Me, and do not forbid them,...", ,

I'd like to have their answers personally, GabrielTheCelt, whether they are Orthodox or not. I also definitely want to know who they are and what they believe as well; that's part of evaluating what they say.

Permit me a few comments on your comments, Gabriel.Orthodoxy has always been very attractive to people; they are attracted to Orthodoxy, perhaps, by what we know as Grace... That is why they want to be a part of this forum too. But in my opinion, also these people are quite confused by discussions like this one. Besides we are arguing about a lot of issues which seem trite. :[

Better “Let the little children come to Me, and do not forbid them,...", ,

Welcome to the forum, Oleg! And thank you very much for your comments.

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"The Scots-Irish; Brewed in Scotland, bottled in Ireland, uncorked in America." ~Scots-Irish saying

More or less we know the beliefs and affiliations of established posters, and this could provide a place where new posters can write a tiny blurb about themselves, beliefs, etc. Keep it moderated sort of like the convert section; information rather than in depth debate. It would be something to refer back to without making the non-Orthodox wear a scarlet marking.

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As a result of a thousand million years of evolution, the universe is becoming conscious of itself, able to understand something of its past history and its possible future.-- Sir Julian Sorell Huxley FRS

First off, I want to thank everyone who has already and who will participate by voting and/or leaving their comments. Since I don't make the by-laws of the forum (thank heavens, right? ), my hope was to at least get everyone thinking about the subject. I still feel very strongly about the topic and I can see that those who disagree with me also feel very strongly as well. My intention wasn't to create trouble or divide everyone into two camps. I hope that my words weren't hurtful towards anyone. Rather than continue on, I'll just simply ask everyone to meditate on the reason why there was a need for the ecumenical councils? I'm quite sure the Fathers and Mothers were aware of Matthew 13:24-30: The Parable of the Wheat and the Tares, but still they forged ahead...

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"The Scots-Irish; Brewed in Scotland, bottled in Ireland, uncorked in America." ~Scots-Irish saying

I don't think that non-Orthodox should necessarily refrain from chiming in on threads having to do with the Orthodox faith, but I can understand your concerns about that. For my own part, after having slept on it, I've decided to make more of an effort to not take things off course and to keep my presence at a minimum when that's for the best. For example, my participation in the H1N1 and the Eucharist thread was not only unneeded, but also improper in the way I went about it. This is not a multi-faith forum, where people critique each other. This is an Orthodox forum, where Orthodox Christians should feel safe in expressing and discussing their faith.

Once again, friends and brothers and sisters, I'm not trying to limit discussion nor am I 'picking' on anyone. I value everyone's right to express themselves, but on Eastern Orthodox matters, I don't want their views or opinions. At the very least, I want to know who is saying what.

Part of discourse is learning about who you are talking with. Not everyone wants to wear their badges on their sleeve, so to speak. As Fr. George pointed out, there are many, many views within the EO communion on any given topic (the iconography threads on here spring to mind). If you want to know something about someone, simply ask. Honestly, I see such a requirement as you're suggesting as incivility, at best, and sheer laziness, at worst.

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"Hearing a nun's confession is like being stoned to death with popcorn." --Abp. Fulton Sheen

Once again, friends and brothers and sisters, I'm not trying to limit discussion nor am I 'picking' on anyone. I value everyone's right to express themselves, but on Eastern Orthodox matters, I don't want their views or opinions. At the very least, I want to know who is saying what.

Part of discourse is learning about who you are talking with. Not everyone wants to wear their badges on their sleeve, so to speak. As Fr. George pointed out, there are many, many views within the EO communion on any given topic (the iconography threads on here spring to mind). If you want to know something about someone, simply ask. Honestly, I see such a requirement as you're suggesting as incivility, at best, and sheer laziness, at worst.

That's because you've put little thought into the matter. Perhaps you should put your contempt for me aside, friend, and look at the poll numbers. Most folks agree that this could cut down on confusion.

« Last Edit: November 04, 2009, 06:35:13 PM by GabrieltheCelt »

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"The Scots-Irish; Brewed in Scotland, bottled in Ireland, uncorked in America." ~Scots-Irish saying

Once again, friends and brothers and sisters, I'm not trying to limit discussion nor am I 'picking' on anyone. I value everyone's right to express themselves, but on Eastern Orthodox matters, I don't want their views or opinions. At the very least, I want to know who is saying what.

Part of discourse is learning about who you are talking with. Not everyone wants to wear their badges on their sleeve, so to speak. As Fr. George pointed out, there are many, many views within the EO communion on any given topic (the iconography threads on here spring to mind). If you want to know something about someone, simply ask. Honestly, I see such a requirement as you're suggesting as incivility, at best, and sheer laziness, at worst.

That's because you've put little thought into the matter. Perhaps you should put your contempt for me aside, friend, and look at the poll numbers. Most folks agree that this could cut down on confusion.

I really don't think you're the first person to come up with the idea of censorship and I don't think Schultz is the first person to think that it might not be all that great of an idea.

'The peculiar evil of silencing the expression of an opinion is, that it is robbing the human race; posterity as well as the existing generation; those who dissent from the opinion, still more than those who hold it. If the opinion is right, they are deprived of the opportunity of exchanging error for truth: if wrong, they lose, what is almost as great a benefit, the clearer perception and livelier impression of truth, produced by its collision with error.' -- John Stuart Mill, On Liberty

That's because you've put little thought into the matter. Perhaps you should put your contempt for me aside, friend, and look at the poll numbers. Most folks agree that this could cut down on confusion.

I really don't think you're the first person to come up with the idea of censorship and I don't think Schultz is the first person to think that it might not be all that great of an idea.

'The peculiar evil of silencing the expression of an opinion is, that it is robbing the human race; posterity as well as the existing generation; those who dissent from the opinion, still more than those who hold it. If the opinion is right, they are deprived of the opportunity of exchanging error for truth: if wrong, they lose, what is almost as great a benefit, the clearer perception and livelier impression of truth, produced by its collision with error.' -- John Stuart Mill, On Liberty

I do not believe the venerable Mr. Mill is considering voluntary self-censorship - which is what I hope GabrieltheCelt is proposing - a part of what he is railing against (institutional censorship, or censorship by fiat).

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"There is a cult of ignorance in the United States, and there always has been. The strain of anti-intellectualism has been a constant thread winding its way through our political and cultural life, nurtured by the false notion that democracy means that “my ignorance is just as good as your knowledge."" Isaac Asimov

That's because you've put little thought into the matter. Perhaps you should put your contempt for me aside, friend, and look at the poll numbers. Most folks agree that this could cut down on confusion.

I really don't think you're the first person to come up with the idea of censorship and I don't think Schultz is the first person to think that it might not be all that great of an idea.

'The peculiar evil of silencing the expression of an opinion is, that it is robbing the human race; posterity as well as the existing generation; those who dissent from the opinion, still more than those who hold it. If the opinion is right, they are deprived of the opportunity of exchanging error for truth: if wrong, they lose, what is almost as great a benefit, the clearer perception and livelier impression of truth, produced by its collision with error.' -- John Stuart Mill, On Liberty

I do not believe the venerable Mr. Mill is considering voluntary self-censorship - which is what I hope GabrieltheCelt is proposing - a part of what he is railing against (institutional censorship, or censorship by fiat).

Ah, well perhaps I misunderstood his intentions, if voluntary self-censorship is all that GabrieltheCelt proposing, then I retract my snide remarks as having been inappropriate.