And only 123 pitches for Sale....way to go Ventura. Pitch his arm out so we can win 65 games.

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Originally Posted by LITTLE NELL

Saving the bullpen for the stretch drive.

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Originally Posted by TheVulture

I don't have a problem with a 123 pitches. A hundred twelve years of major league baseball history doesn't support the claim limiting a pitcher to a hundred pitchers preserves his arm or limits the risk of injury in the long run.

You realize there's also 112 years of guys getting seriously hurt, right? You realize that in 112 years, all the guys throwing as many pitches as Sale with the same form ended up with exploded elbows or shoulders, right?

If there's a case to be made for Sale to have high pitch counts and innings, it's certainly not based on 112 years of history.

You realize there's also 112 years of guys getting seriously hurt, right? You realize that in 112 years, all the guys throwing as many pitches as Sale with the same form ended up with exploded elbows or shoulders, right?

If there's a case to be made for Sale to have high pitch counts and innings, it's certainly not based on 112 years of history.

All? Really? I would never say Sale will last another 15 years without a major injury. I'm not Cleo and lots of pitchers without the dreaded inverted W blow their arms out too. Pitchers just seem so fragile nowadays regardless of how they throw.

You realize there's also 112 years of guys getting seriously hurt, right? You realize that in 112 years, all the guys throwing as many pitches as Sale with the same form ended up with exploded elbows or shoulders, right?

If there's a case to be made for Sale to have high pitch counts and innings, it's certainly not based on 112 years of history.

You realize there's also 112 years of guys getting seriously hurt, right? You realize that in 112 years, all the guys throwing as many pitches as Sale with the same form ended up with exploded elbows or shoulders, right?

If there's a case to be made for Sale to have high pitch counts and innings, it's certainly not based on 112 years of history.

Facts are facts. As pitch count restrictions have increased, so have arm injuries to pitchers. Unless you are arguing we are in the midst of a process human devolution, I don't know how you can claim there is no correlation. And how does it just so happen a nice round number like 100 becomes a magic number where that's acceptable but not 120 pitches. If we were using the duodecimal system instead of the decimal system, people would probably praising Ventura for keeping him under pitch count right now.

__________________"Respect was invented to cover the empty place where love should be."

All? Really? I would never say Sale will last another 15 years without a major injury. I'm not Cleo and lots of pitchers without the dreaded inverted W blow their arms out too. Pitchers just seem so fragile nowadays regardless of how they throw.

Yep. All of them.

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Originally Posted by WLL1855

Take your crusade elsewhere. Your absolutist statements are stale.

Or, you know, you could educate yourself. Because it's true.

There hasn't been a single 10+ year career in the last 112 years of baseball where a starting pitcher threw with a true inverted W without serious and career threatening (or ending) incident. Not a single case.

And someone will look it up and come up with names like Glavine, Smoltz, Blylevin, etc. But none of those guys threw a true inverted W. In a true inverted W, the elbow can (and does frequently) raise about the shoulder. That's what causes catastrophic injury. At a 100% rate. Absolute. 100%.

In case you were wondering, it's still 100%.

Did you look it up yet? 100%.

Quote:

Originally Posted by TheVulture

Facts are facts. As pitch count restrictions have increased, so have arm injuries to pitchers. Unless you are arguing we are in the midst of a process human devolution, I don't know how you can claim there is no correlation. And how does it just so happen a nice round number like 100 becomes a magic number where that's acceptable but not 120 pitches. If we were using the duodecimal system instead of the decimal system, people would probably praising Ventura for keeping him under pitch count right now.

I'm not knocking the argument that pitch counts are to blame in a lot of cases, I believe that to be true. My issue is with the way Sale pitches. It's 100% a ticking time bomb. It's not a matter or if, it's a matter of when. And the more pitches he throws, the sooner when is.

There hasn't been a single 10+ year career in the last 112 years of baseball where a starting pitcher threw with a true inverted W without serious and career threatening (or ending) incident. Not a single case.

And someone will look it up and come up with names like Glavine, Smoltz, Blylevin, etc. But none of those guys threw a true inverted W. In a true inverted W, the elbow can (and does frequently) raise about the shoulder. That's what causes catastrophic injury. At a 100% rate. Absolute. 100%.

In case you were wondering, it's still 100%.

Did you look it up yet? 100%.

I'm not knocking the argument that pitch counts are to blame in a lot of cases, I believe that to be true. My issue is with the way Sale pitches. It's 100% a ticking time bomb. It's not a matter or if, it's a matter of when. And the more pitches he throws, the sooner when is.

Here's why people don't take you more seriously.

I want to take you seriously. I really do. But when you pull this shtick, it is like talking to the guy who claims the moon landing was faked.

I'm being an *******, but I'm only being an ******* because you were being an ******* first. It's not a schtick. It was an accurate statement. If Chris Sale pitched his entire career injury free without changing his throwing motion, he would be the FIRST starter in baseball history to do so with his motion. There's a lot of different things out there on the inverted W being safe or not. There was a big deal a few years back when some guys "disproved it" by pointing to variations on it, and then the people talking about how horrible it was clarified to mean a specific motion in which the elbow raises above the shoulder at a certain point in the motion, and then the guys who said it was "safe" said, "oh, you're cherry picking and changing your argument." I could care less about the semantics, the truth is that Sale throws it the only way that's actually been proven to be 100% detrimental to the structure of his elbow and shoulder. So when I say that using baseball history to say that Sale should throw more would be an inaccurate statement it's because even the guys that threw more that had his mechanics got hurt.

To claim "100%" of pitchers who threw with the "inverted W" had career-ending injuries, one would need to produce video or photographic evidence of every major league pitcher who had ever thrown that way, along with substantiated newspaper accounts, or preferably, medical records, for every one of those pitchers.

Without that, it's unsubstantiated hyperbole.

__________________The universe is the practical joke of the General at the expense of the Particular, quoth Frater Perdurabo, and laughed. The disciples nearest him wept, seeing the Universal Sorrow. Others laughed, seeing the Universal Joke. Others wept. Others laughed. Others wept because they couldn't see the Joke, and others laughed lest they should be thought not to see the Joke. But though FRATER laughed openly, he wept secretly; and really he neither laughed nor wept. Nor did he mean what he said.

To claim "100%" of pitchers who threw with the "inverted W" had career-ending injuries, one would need to produce video or photographic evidence of every major league pitcher who had ever thrown that way, along with substantiated newspaper accounts, or preferably, medical records, for every one of those pitchers.

Without that, it's unsubstantiated hyperbole.

Exactly. You just can't lob a grenade out there like that and expect people to say hosanna. Some of us have actually studied this and I at least found very little consensus on much of anything. Including exactly what constitutes an inverted W pitching motion.

This guy pretty much wrote the book on the difference in inverted W's (countering famed Dr Mike Marshall's claims about how and why the inverted W is bad). Unfortunately, I can't link the book (obviously). You'll have to go out and buy it. But this and some of the other site links provide a decent synopsis of a lot of his main points.