If anything, maybe there are a bit too much difference dynamically between the first and the second foot in your clip - the accents are a bit strong making it sound more like eighth's than sixteenth's at times....but then again it might be the recording, it might a matter of taste...

How long did it take you to develop the doubles to that point? Any advice?

I'm practicing doubles frequently but I haven't got the time or the willpower to spend as much time on it as would be useful :( So progress is really slow. How was your curve? How much had you been using your left foot before starting to do doublestroke-rolls?

I'm playing the exercises Virgil shows on the MD-festival '97-tape. Just trying to start slow and hang in there, but most of the time it feels like it's getting nowhere. I'm no stranger to the learning process of playing a musical instrument, so I know I shouldn't be discouraged by the lack of progress at this point. Things seem to be going nowhere for months, and the next morning you're suddenly way better than yesterday, I know....

Just feel like I deserve some progress by now. Can't even do 70BPM every time. I can do 150-160 at times, but once I've been doing doubles for a few minutes (not just fast ones - 70-80BPM too) I sometimes can't even do 70BPM straight! Needless to say it's the left foot causing trouble, though it's quite alot better at doubles alternating with the hands....as soon as I start alternating between the feet, things go crazy....sometimes, at least.

Anyway, nice work! Hope I'll be able to do that some day... :)

quitou

08-13-2003, 05:30 PM

WOW!!! I must say it was definitely worth the wait. Sounds pretty incredible to me. How old are you and how long have you been playing??? Sounds alomost as good as Virg himself!!!

peter

08-13-2003, 06:23 PM

To do "Dogboots", you're going to
have to start with the 8th note
pattern. That's that way Virgil did it.
Look at him when he does his. His
legs are coming up on the 16th
notes. We're going to have to do
the same and while we're cleaning
up, we're going to hear 8ths every
now and then. I say jonbergs on the
right track. I like that he has some
pattern overlay above the doubles,
which shows he's been working on
it, especially towards the end of the
sample, reminding us that it's not
all just about the doubles but what
takes place on top of it too.

Cool, jonberg!

peter

08-13-2003, 06:25 PM

A good way to learn Dogboots is to start
with just the 8th notes, then adding the
layer above AFTER you have all the kicks
of the tune down. That's how I'm going
to do it eventually.

Tell us, jonberg - is this how you
approached it? What did you do first
and so on?

Let's hear your comments.

peter

08-13-2003, 06:28 PM

Fede,

How's is your right foot?

jonberg,

Kudos to you, hombre!

Fede

08-14-2003, 12:01 AM

Much better. The right foot alone can play it's part of the Dog Boots-groove alright, though not for the full length of the song... So I can play Dog Boots between my right foot and floor tom if I want....but I don't :)

I'd been playing single-kick for 8-9 before starting with double-kick around 8-9 years ago, and I haven't got the best practice-discipline. I haven't very much time to practice these days, it's usually around 2-3 x 1 hour on an average week, so when I'm finally practicing I mostly feel like having fun which is, after all, the main reason why I play drums. Problem is you don't learn that much from just goofing around on the kit - you do learn something, but slowly.

So I'm pretty sure I know what the problem is.... Practice more!
Sigh.... I'll probably be getting an electric kit soon, just for fun as I've gotten a very good deal on one. I hope I can have it standing at home, or at least the kick-pad and doublepedal so that I can practice them doubles while I'm doing stuff like typing this. :)

jonberg

08-14-2003, 02:29 AM

Thanks for the comments guys :)

Iīve been practising doubles for about 4 years, about 2,5 years when that was recorded. I practise on it A LOT, but not just sitting and playing doubles on the doublepedal, but with the hihat and working with that as well. I did a huge mistake when I began with playing doubles, and that was that I didnīt care much for the control of the technique, I just wanted to be fast, and I had that attitude in a year or so. I realised that it wouldnīt work so since then I take it slow and work on the quality instead.

I say that my limit is 165-170bpm cause after that I cramp and the quality but on this recording my adrenaline really pushed me and I managed to go faster, even though that the doubles arenīt precise all the way.

I do as Virgil explains, take about 30 minutes everyday and work on it, taking one step at the time and now I am finding myself after 4years progressing and pushing my technique. Itīs really inspiring!!

To quitou: Iīm 20 and been playing for 7-8 years, doublepedal for about 5years.

To Peter: I never actually practised with just 8notes in the bassdrum, I rather slow down the tempo and practise all the other stuff on top of that.

What I can say about it, is that it will work if you work on it continuetly, theres no secret to it. Anyone can do it if one does his homework, Iīve got tons of homework left, but I love them :D

Good luck everyone...cheers!

jemmy

08-14-2003, 03:02 AM

Nice work, jonberg! :cool:

A small comment on the band part of the performance, though.

You could tighten it up a bit. Especially the bass player isn't always exactly on cue, rather a bit ahead the beat. I think you can achieve the tightening up by playing the song (just) a little more laiback. E.g., in the part where the accompaniment is essentially in 7/8 (starting @2:29), you'd really need to play out the seven eighth's completely.

morgenthaler

08-14-2003, 03:20 AM

Excellent work Jonathan!
I am deeply impressed.
Is your technique more slide than wickle or vice versa?
Do you understand my question?
On the 1997 MD tape it is quite clearly sometimes that Virgil tends to slide a bit on his pedals, rather than on the TUDW dvd where he really works the feet.
I had a tendency towards the slide motion, but am now going through the pains (time wise!) of converting my feet. My doubles aren't anywhere near yours, tempo wise yet, but there is no turning back for me. I just love to improve.

kirk

08-14-2003, 03:41 AM

Very good Jon indeed, for as long as you have been playing you are at a good place for sure. Obviously you are working hard and it shows. Man, imagine yourself in 2 to 3 years WATCH OUT! Keep up the great work.

Kirk

peter

08-14-2003, 05:07 AM

Fede - Do you recall what you did for your right
foot and have you concentrated in the same way
on your left? Tell me about the pedals and the
type of spring settings your using.

jonberg - Correct me if I'm wrong but as I see it,
we HAVE TO use a bounce off the head. Is that
what you're doing? Tell me about your pedals
and spring settings.

I posted this is another thead but I tried this, for
the first time, last night, remembering to the best
of my knowledge, Virgil's technique in clinic.

www.thediametrixletter.com/dogpoops.mp3

I know it sucks but what I found was that it was
easy to keep up the speed, as long as I concentrated
on the 8ths and NOT the 16th notes. It's almost
like using the Moeller method for kick, which is what
Virgil appears to be doing.

peter

08-14-2003, 05:09 AM

Another thing, I have worked with kick pedals
a LOT, this past year and I have found that the
heavier, weighted beaters do not help, unless
you bring the spring tension up and then the
beater closer to the head. Virgil uses the regular
felt beaters that come with the Eliminators and
before that, just normal beaters. The weight
might be an issue for you guys. It is for me. Felt
is easier to bounce on the head.

morgenthaler

08-14-2003, 06:01 AM

Thats not entirely correct peter.
Virgil has been using the plastic side for a long time, and in the earlier days he often used wooten beaters. (e.g. on Powerdrumming!)

peter

08-14-2003, 06:21 AM

Thank you, MT. I stand corrected.
You would know better than I and
I didn't refer to the video, which I
have, to check that. I should have,
before I said that. Apologies. I'm
glad I have guys like you that keep
me in line. Thanks again.

Still, this is something to consider,
the weight and type of beaters used.
Everyone's different and what's right
for Virgil may not be right for us. It
depends. I'm suggesting to be open
to new ideas as it is a new idea for
many of us - certainly for me.

It has been said that the best way
to teach a child how to walk is bare-
foot. This is because walking involves
a lot check and balance and having
to do with more than one muscle.

I suggest that it might be the
same for us if this is new to you. It
takes child a while to walk. We have
to be patient and ready to try new
things that might help us. A child
never gives up. Neither should we.

morgenthaler

08-14-2003, 06:30 AM

Couldn't agree with you more.
I didn't mean to correct,- rather inform...
All the best,
Morgenthaler

peter

08-14-2003, 07:07 AM

Morganthaler,

Don't worry about correcting me. You
did both and it was appropriate. I ap-
preciate it, truly.

ANDYEARNY

08-14-2003, 08:34 AM

jonberg
Respect mate!Only 20 yrs old as well.I will be watching for you in the future!!!Anybody that can pull a vIRGIL.d song off is doing well!!!Just shows what the power of the maestro Virgil can do for you`re inspiration.

jagdkommando

08-14-2003, 09:39 AM

jonberg,
what can I say? I can only agree with all the other guys! You're the man! And only 20yrs old! Congratulations!!

jonberg

08-14-2003, 11:06 AM

Peter: I use a Iron Cobra double pedal (rolling glide??, I think it is called so) with a medium to loose tension, I actually think I should tighten it a bit because I must struggle at some tempos nowdays, I should try other tensions. And I really want to buy a Pearl Elimator double pedal.

Morgenthaler: I understand your question, I think :)
I donīt slide in that context like Weckl do for example, I try to let my feet stay on the same place. Iīve have noticed that it activates other muscles groups than if youre sliding...Virgil has pretty strong legmuscles I think because of that :D

Jemmy: Yes, the bassplayer wasnīt to sure on his part at all, but he pulled it off anyway the best he could. The guitarist was actually the worst but this time he played it pretty well...he couldnīt get the 7note figure in the last part of dogboots, you actually hear that heīs going from that figure the last measure or so...man, I was pissed after that :D

Thank you guys, Iīm really honored to hear these things from you, means more than hearing it from my mom and dad if you get what I mean :D

Keep on drumming everyone!!
Virgil rules!

peter

08-14-2003, 11:41 AM

Thanks for responding to my question, Jonberg.
Listen, I'm a 44 year-old, totally new to double-
kicking, it having taken a guy like Virgil to open
my eyes to the whole other world down there.
You kids have the leg up on me, or should I say
down on me - pardon the pun!

I have heard nice things about the Eliminator. I
use the Axis A Longboard - another high-end
pedal, which has incredible action BUT with all
these higher-end pedals, you need to try them
BEFORE you commit them bucks. Know what
you are getting, OK?

You mentioned the slide. I know a few drummers
that use them. I myself do not, leaning with you.
Again, that does not mean it's a "bad thing" or
something like that. Again, German-Drummer uses
it on both his kicks and look at the great job he
can do down there. It's about what's right for you.
The Iron Cobra is a fine pedal. I use that one at
another kit (another location) but I don't like the
beater. That doesn't mean it isn't right for other
guys. Matthias (German Drummer) gets great
double-stroke action with his. At the same time,
I encourage you to try different beaters on it
and see what you like best.

One question I still have is how much you're
bouncing the beater on the head. As I see it,
right now, there's no way to get that canine
tempo and speed, without it. Let me know.

Thanks and again, kudos to you for a job done
well. Even attempts at "Dogboots" have to be
hailed, in my opinion. It's the new benchmark
in many ways and you're going for it and that
is awesome, especially for a youngster.

Keep it up because there are old geezers like
me out there who aren't afraid of going to
school, with the help of you guys, wanting to
still kick up some dirt!

quitou

08-14-2003, 12:56 PM

Hey Guys,

I think what jonberg says about slowing down and practicing slowly is really important. That's something that Thomas Lang always emphasizes in interviews I've read...it's more important to pratice slowly and gain control first...once you have control speed will come by itself. This is also one of the principles of Mike Mangini's Rhythm Knowledge books...pratice slowly and accurately. Just figured I'd share that with everybody

peter

08-14-2003, 01:34 PM

Thanks, Quitou.

I'm of the same school. I have
mentioned this a number of times.
It's not about speed but accuracy.

I'm not familiar with Lang's philosophy
but he can play. There's no doubt about
it and did I mention he could twirl?!

So, that's in Mangini's book. I just
ordered that book myself. Good advice.

Fede

08-14-2003, 03:20 PM

It's the same everywhere. Weckl also emphasizes the importance of taking it slow in his videos.

Slow and perfect is much better than fast and almost perfect.

jonberg

08-15-2003, 03:36 AM

Peter: I donīt think that I bounce the beater from the head, like doing a roll on snaredrum with the sticks, I try to play every stroke evenly and with the same volume...but I guess there must be somekind of bounce in it too.
Like everybody says: Slow first, then control and eventually speed.

alencore

08-15-2003, 06:59 AM

Amazing stamina you have there kid! Keept it up. Those fans of yours shouting on the background for which I'm sure are females seems enjoying the event astoshingly I supposed.

jonberg

08-15-2003, 10:09 AM

I belive those girl liked when I took my T-shirt off and poored myself in water while doing doublestrokes :D
They always like that man :D

jimi

08-16-2003, 01:53 AM

Good stuff jonberg! Now aren't you glad you posted it! maybe they might wana hear 'Illusions' as well?

alencore

08-18-2003, 04:25 AM

Originally posted by jonberg
I belive those girl liked when I took my T-shirt off and poored myself in water while doing doublestrokes :D
They always like that man :D
hehe, if ever that's true don't do it all the time or else you'll get pnuemonia or something, lol.