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I seem to remember you asking this question before. In any event, I'll give the same answer as before. Why don't you write to them directly and ask them for yourself? Here is an e-mail address for you. info[at]shudokanmalaysia.com

That's where culture comes in - the the West (or at least the UK) the honorific or title is placed before somebodies name - therefore the title is placed in accordance with cultural and grammatical norms. I understand that in Japan the honorific is normally placed after the name.

That's where culture comes in - the the West (or at least the UK) the honorific or title is placed before somebodies name - therefore the title is placed in accordance with cultural and grammatical norm.

That's fine if you are using the English language (Mr Smith, Doctor Smith, Professor Smith etc.), although I don't recall anyone in English being referred to as teacher Smith. If you were referring to a colleague in a conversation, would you use San or Sama in the same way (San Smith, Sama Smith), it's western culture to put the honorific first , or would you use the correct form (Smith san, Smith Sama)? If you adopt words from a foreign language, you should still use them in the correct context of that language, to do otherwise shows a lack of understanding of the adopted language.

rgds

Bryan

A difficult problem is easily solved by asking yourself the question, "Just how would the Lone Ranger handle this?"

Correct Form? - Nice Try - The English language has a very long history of taking and incorporating foreign words. If we are speaking English and incorporating what was originally a foreign word the appropriate grammar is that of the English Language. The context is correct as it describes the title appropriate to the person.

We are all guilty of it and I know the Eastern form. Many do it because they say Mr X not X San, and that then slips in to Sensei X not X Sensei. When using a Japanese title we should write it the correct way round, but hey, does it really matter? If X is an awesome Aikidoka and teacher, does it matter if he is refered to as Sensei X or X Sensei?

Remember that a lot of people in the US use the term Aikidoist in place of Aikidoka, but does that have any effect on their Aikido?

I prefer 'aikidoist' to 'aikidoka', and I see what you're getting at with "Sensei x" as against "x sensei", though I still don't like it.

"Sempai X" though, is a whole different ball game. "Sempai" is not an honorific, it isn't rank related, it doesn't necessarily have anything to do with teaching, and the vast majority of us practicing in the west don't do the sempai/kohai thing or even understand it.
The way dojos in the UK use "sempai" as a title, meaning "almost, but not quite, sensei" is just plain tacky. Tacky and embarassing. So there.

"Sempai X" though, is a whole different ball game. "Sempai" is not an honorific, it isn't rank related, it doesn't necessarily have anything to do with teaching, and the vast majority of us practicing in the west don't do the sempai/kohai thing or even understand it.
The way dojos in the UK use "sempai" as a title, meaning "almost, but not quite, sensei" is just plain tacky. Tacky and embarassing. So there.

Actually, some schools (particularly in Karate) use Sempai as a title, meaning a "Senior", for the step between student and teacher, usually 1st and 2nd Dan.

In my opinion, if you teach, then you are Sensei, but each to there own.

My arguement is that since someone who wrestles is a wrestler, someone who boxes is a boxer and someone fences is a fencer then someone who practices aikido should be an aikidoer. That of course is close enough to the Japanese convention as to make it worth keeping aikidoka as the term for a practitioner and giving the nod to tradition.

The old web-site is back and has been for a short time, but in a way that it should be! I am no longer part of Shudokan UK and haven't for a while, so I have brought it back as a tribute to one of my old teachers, the late, great Edwin WJ Stratton Sensei - Founder of the UK Yoshinkan!

The Shudokan in Malaysia, Australia, Canada, France, Germany, Indonesia, Poland, and the UK, all come from Thambt Rajah Sensei in Malaysia (The Father of Malaysian Aikido- in the Yoshinkan school). It came to Europe (UK) with Stratton Sensei and on to Canada, France, Germany and Poland.

As for being part of the Yoshinkan, that is just a question of membership. Some parts of the Shudokan are, some are not.

Bloody amazing that in an art which so many (regardless of country) adopt without much ado the philosophy yet don't won't adopt the correct usage of the terms as described in this thread.

:bewildered:

A question to those who use 'Sensei' before the name, and justify that based upon the native language spoken...

If you were introducing a Japanese instructor face to face to someone would *you* say "Sensei <name>" or "<name> Sensei" ?

Dave

I would do it the English way if I was speaking English and the Japanese way if I was speaking Japanese. We have the same thing in Spanish. Our adjectives in Spanish are after the what is being described. In Spanish, we don't say the big boy, the fat elephant or the pretty girl. We say the boy big (muchacho grande) the elephant fat (elefante gordo) and the girl pretty (muchacha bonita). If I was importing the word muchacho into English, I would say the big muchacho. If I was importing the word "boy" into Spanish, I would say the boy grande. If I am speaking in English, it makes sense to say Sensei Ron and if I am speaking in Japanese, it makes sense to say Ron Sensei. One is an English word and one is Japanese. It depends which way the word is being imported.

I really know where Bryan and Sean are coming from. "Sensei John Smith" just sounds wrong to me. However, "sensei" is actually in Webster's dictionary, including a plural of "senseis", so that makes it English enough for people to do what they will (I'm a hard-line descriptivist).

There's the flip-side. Japanese has imported many foreign words it uses as job titles: manager, coach, (news)caster, reporter, announcer, trainer, and others. These words are frequently used as honorifics: Tanaka-maneejaa, Sato-koochi, Kikuchi-repootaa, Uchida-anaunsaa. If I get upset about Sensei John, I have to get upset about Sato-koochi.

Now, sempai is a whole different kettle. Sempai is not (yet) acclimated to the English language, so someone attempting to use it is attempting to bring a particular cultural concept, and in that case a little more adherence to proper usage would be preferable, if only to show that they understand the concept. "Sempai" is not a title one earns or loses, it's simply what you are. When listing teachers, for example, it's not unusual to put "sensei" next to their names (and the same is done with the above imported words), but it's never done with "sempai". One person's sempai is another person's kohai. Because it is varies depending on the person, and since it's not a qualification or a job, it's simply used as a form of address.

Related to this, what really bugs me is the use of "kohai" in Rising Sun (book and movie). Unlike "sempai", "kohai" is never used as an honorific, nor as a form of address.

"Aikidoist" is, linguistically, much, much more justifiable that "Aikidoer". The "-er" suffix is native English, and is derived from verb forms. We tend to attach it to native English words, or words that "sound" English. The "-ist" suffix is derived from French, and tends to be attached to foreign-derived words, and also nouns. One who plays a piano is not a pioner, but a pianist. One who writes is a writer, but one who writes novels is a novelist. And of course "-ist" is also used to refer to followers of a philosophy or doctrine, like "hedonist", "Impressionist", and so on. So on a phonological level ("aikidoist" flows better than "aikidoer") as a well as a semantical level (aikido is a noun; something we use/make, as well as a philosophy, rather than a verb like box, fence, or wrestle), I think "aikidoist" has much more to recommend it than "aikidoer".

Of course, "aikidoka" can be imported pretty easily. Tohei Akira Shihan once said that "aikidoka" referred to a professional instructor, although I can't say he's fully supported by common Japanese usage; it seems to refer to dedicated hobbyists over here, too.

Josh Reyer

The lyf so short, the crafte so longe to lerne,
Th'assay so harde, so sharpe the conquerynge...
- Chaucer

To my ear, Smith Sensei does sound better, but we rarely use Japanese word order for names -- don't hear Yamada Kenji as much as Kenji Yamada -- so the native language argument may not be the best one.

My favorite though is John Cardinal Smith. How's that for old school word order.

at the moment shudokan uk is going strong there are dojo's in nottingham(2), lincoln(2), york, preston, oxford and devon(2). there is strong dojo's in poland as well. there are websites for most of these and you should find the link from the nottingham dojo.

as for the sensei "name" sensei thing, who cares who does what, it is their choice and leave it to them.