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Sunday, 22 June 2008

Ron, Paul and the Anti-Den

A few days off from blogging and the news of life behind the Herbal Curtain builds up. Here are a few swift kicks at the logs in the jam.

Weinland tries to save face. But, honestly, can't he do better than this?

This is not pleasant to have to address, as all of us have planned our lives on such timing. If the second trumpet sounds, with nuclear explosions in port cities, then everything will indeed be fully in line with what I’ve stated in the last interviews and in some sermons. But I do want to state again, I no longer believe that to be the case... If I have jumped the gun in a couple of interviews and interjected my own understanding into the timing of events, and have thereby been presumptuous, then I will repent and move forward.

If???

The bottom line is that I know I am a prophet of God and God’s minister under Jesus Christ, who is the head of the Church of God, the Body of Christ. As such, I have a job to do and I am going to do it.

Ron, time to give it up... a prophet you ain't.

Paul Kroll is retiring. One of the old guard who came over to front the new guard, Paul is a fine journalist but, you'd probably have to say, an unconvincing apologist.

Dennis Pelley, Pasadena Pastor Imperator, is also heading out the door. Dennis was a controversial figure for a while, and featured more than once on the AW news website that preceded this blog. Den is presumably off to a comfy retirement: just keep an eye out for that bad karma dude!

117 comments:

Sermon details from Shadows today indicates Weinland has pulled a Herbie, although he may just have given his church the three-fingered salute instead. (As in Ctrl-Alt-Del: Something tells me that ain't gonna work Weinland.)

Lying false prophets (like Ronald Weinland, for example) never quit trying to collect an easy and excessive paycheck. That is why they need to be stoned to death, according to the Bible. It would provide faster, longer-lasting relief from these shameless, incurable fibbers than anything else. It is the only medicine that would bring a real, lasting cure.

Even though he looks like his mother dresses him funny, Ron is an adult and should know better than to go around telling endless lies in God's name.

WCG HIRELINGS

I remember talking to a man who had gone with the Global Church after the WCG had openly turned against everything at the start of 1995. He had gone out to eat with a WCG "minister" by the name of Lyle V. Simons. He was disappointed to hear Lyle the hireling say that he had disagreed with the WCG's teaching on clean and unclean meats ten years earlier but that nobody would listen to him back then. Now that the WCG had turned against the biblical teachings from Leviticus 11, Lyle could openly say that he did not like God's laws either. Over the ten year period, though, he had stuck around to collect a paycheck. Of interest is the fact that he would kick out of the WCG people who did believe the biblical teachings, telling them that he did not know what they were doing there but that it was obvious that they had been there for the wrong reasons. Perverted old men from the casinos who wanted to stare at your crotch and act stupid were there for acceptable reasons, in Lyle's opinion. Now, it is obvious that it was lying Lyle who was there for the wrong reasons. The last report I heard from other people was that Lyle had wanted the WCG to move even faster toward a more "Pentecostal" style.

The man who had gone with the Global Church also commented that the ordinary members were expected to risk losing their jobs over things like the Sabbath. He said that it was only fair that God would also test the WCG ministers too. This testing has left most of them looking like a bunch of cowardly, money-hungry flunkies.

There is so much information available now, there is no excuse for people to be bamboozled about false ministers or false churches.

Pick a subject and prove it for yourself. Take tithing for instance. There are dozens of articles about tithing that can be obtained from the internet. For starters, type in the word tithing and go to google. Read what Ernest Martin wrote about it. Read what exit and support says about tithing. Once you understand that tithing is not commanded, how many churches can be eliminated? How may ministers can be labeled false for preaching it?

Another subject to check is the calendar. Go into The Painful Truth and read their article about the calendar. Also read the blog in “I Survived Armstrongism”, about the calendar. It’s short and easy to read and understand. Go to google and do the same here. How many of the churches we have known keep that Jewish Calendar? When you discover that the Jewish Calendar is from pagan origin, then how many churches can you label false for keeping it?

Mat. 26:17, Mark 14:12 (and other scriptures) tell us when the 1st day of unleavened bread begins. Seven days we keep unleavened bread UNTIL the 21st. (not including). How many churches can be eliminated for doing this?

The night to be observed was given to the ancient Israelites only. Not for us today. Do the research!

Here also we have to go by God’s principle of line upon line, here a little, there a little, precept upon precept. You will have to eliminate as you go along, not all of anyone is correct, but you should soon learn that ALL of the churches are wrong in one way or another. If you attend church for a warm fuzzy feeling, (no matter what they taught) and to be with your friends, then what will you tell Christ when he comes? That you loved others more than him?

As for me, I will never believe the lie of religion again. A religion that is man made.

>>There are dozens of articles about tithing that can be obtained from the internet.<<

All of them have been written by men who are completely ignorant of the reason for tithing.

>>Read what Ernest Martin wrote about it.<<

What a laugh! Ernest is a former WCG hireling, who now runs his virtual church for money. I bet you he doesn't reject what he calls, "donations!"

>>Another subject to check is the calendar. Go into The Painful Truth and read their article about the calendar.<<

The calendar has become a pet subject with Douglas and others, but none of them are capable of understanding the calendar of God.

>>When you discover that the Jewish Calendar is from pagan origin,..<<

What nonsense! If the Jewish calendar is of pagan origin, which calendar should we be following?

>>Mat. 26:17, Mark 14:12 (and other scriptures) tell us when the 1st day of unleavened bread begins.<<

If the Jewish calendar is from pagan origin, and the Jews got the calendar from the bible, why quote the bible, which must also be of pagan origin? Should you not be quoting some divine document, which was not from pagan origin?

BTW, it would be helpful to God's people if you could refer them to web sites that explain doctrines such as, redemption, sanctification, predestination, grace, the first and second resurrection, born again and what is meant by, "Christ in you, the hope of Glory." But I suspect that you don't have the faintest idea how to begin to explain any of these sublime doctrines. So it is much easier to post nonsense about the Jewish calendar being pagan in origin.

Now this brings back memories... UCG was intended to be composed of local congregations with autonomy? The "central association" was to be small enough that if necessary, it could be choked off from the tithes?? Man, what a far cry from what United is today!

I remember Rod Meredith was chewing nails. Dave Pack (one of his most important regional pastors) had figured the numbers on how many discontented ministers were getting ready to leave WCG, along with church members. Poor Dave didn't stop to think they might start their own group -- so he was telling RCM that we'd be getting a whopping huge percentage of WCG people!

So Rod Meredith, reading Dave's numbers, called a fast in mid-1994. He told everyone to implore God that He would give GCG at least a "tithe" of Worldwide -- maybe even two tithes! Maybe, if we really humbled ourselves before God and had lots and lots of faith, even three tithes, plus a generous offering!

Hey, it makes sense, doesn't it? Let's fast before God so He can tithe to us!

So Meredith was furious when these upstart ministers started their own group. God was supposed to bring all those people to him! His frustration with God showed through in his sermons. Right up to the Great Global Split of 1998, he kept insisting that God was going to wake up and get with his personal schedule of events any day now -- and all the UCG people would finally figure out that Meredith was the spearpoint of God's Work. He still brings it up now and again, but not as violently as he did in those days.

Re: Ernest Martin

Poor guy -- I bet he'd have given anything not to have passed away on the same day of the year HWA did...

Tom, you may be amazed to know that Ernest Martin was far closer to being one of the "good guys" among church evangelists than nearly any of the power-consumed Big Honchos that ruled in Pasadena. He was nearly singular, among the top "ranks", in displaying some measure of true concern and humility. He did not carry his nose up in the air with a proud and haughty look, as was typical of other "evangelists" at HQ.

Quietly, over some ten years, he sought to get the Armstrongs and their minions to pay real attention to his research. He got nowhere. But after his departure from the WCG, Armstrong wasted little time in finally accepting Martin's determination that Pentecost occurs on Sunday, not on Monday. Martin's methodology and conclusions were used, but of course Ernest was never credited. This is intellectual (you might say spiritual) dishonesty.

In making my defense of Ernest Martin (and in condemning HWA's angry from-the-pulpit smearing of Martin), I am not defending or condemning his research. I'm well outside of all of that. And if I have any real criticism of Ernest Martin, it was that he seemed to have gotten rather more "conservative" in approach in his last years. But from what I have been told by a common acquaintance who was in regular contact with him until his death, Ernest Martin remained a genuine, engaged, personable human being--something hard to say about most "evangelists" of the past--or present, for that matter.

Have you cranked up a new batch of crystal meth in West Bromwich? Because you are cranking out a whole new, fresh load of over-the-top opinion-spouting, with no argument to back up anything you write. Sounds like someone on crank...!

The idiot Tom said, "I had forgotten that the hireling was buried like the rich man, who lifted up his head in hell and saw Lazarus in Abraham's bosom. He must be weeping for those on whose lips he continues to live!"

I think the "prophets" may make a serious comeback in the next couple of years. It looks like the world may be going through some significant upheavals over oil prices, projected food shortages, and maybe more war in the Middle East. If so, doomsday prophets will find fertile grounds in which their messages may sprout.

That won't prove anything, of course. Human beings are perfectly capable of screwing up this world without any help from a divine father figure. And one stray, chunky-sized meteor can ruin everyone's day for several thousand years.

Just saying that unsettling times set the stage for would-be Jeremiahs...

Tom Mahon seems to have an awful lot to say for someone who never really says anything. However, he is a liar who says that they have never heard of "meth", it's on the news on TV and in the news in every newspaper in the country.

Tom, you don't lead a "sheltered" life, you don't have a life at all if you really believe that crap you constantly go on about.

Give it up, The___CoG (fill in the blank)is not the church of God.

Your buddy, Weinland, was just as wrong as your hero, Armstrong, and just as wrong as the apostle who said "the time is short" 2,000 years ago.

Aren't we all just a little bit old to still be believing in spirits, gods and fairies? They are all in the same category, you know.

Can you name even one current or former wcg minister who was not a hireling, in your opinion? Let's exclude HWA for the moment. I am asking the question seriously. Please list a few examples of ministers who were not hirelings if you can.

As a long-time, former, and current member of the Worldwide Church of God, I am astonished at all the animosity displayed here. I am personally acquainted with some of the people about whom you have made disparaging remarks, and must take issue with them. The people who have done bad things will face judgement; of that you can be sure. I think some of you need to get a life.

In this world, lots of people commit crimes, and when justice is about to overtake them, some commit suicide to escape the shame and punishment. But with God death is no escape from shame and punishment. If you understood the story of Lazarus and the rich man, you might be shaking in your boots!

How about going to the scriptures and searching? As originally stated, line upon line, here a little, there a little, ect. ect. It's there, and the answers will come when you put it all together in the right context.

I'll spare you the trouble Tom. Simply do the math problem in the bible. They had the math wrong in the original document (Time is short, this generation shall not pass away, etc, ad nauseum)and EVERY SINGLE profit since has the math all wrong. Every time. Yea, verily I say unto you, including herbert.

Perhaps it is *time* to come to terms with the fact that the document itself contains a few errors and stop wasting lifetimes with end-time nonsense???

>>>Can you name even one current or former wcg minister who was not a hireling, in your opinion?<<<

Firstly, I don't have an opinion about who is a hireling. All I do is examined the definition and the described behaviour of a hireling in the bible, and then see whose behaviour fits the definition.

Now to answer your question. Regrettably, all the ministers I have known and worked with, behaviour fits the definition of a hireling. The bible describes the behaviour of a hireling thus: "But he that is a hireling, and not the shepherd, whose own the sheep are not, sees the wolf coming, and leaves the sheep, and flees: and the wolf catches them, and scatters the the sheep."

Now all we have to do to determine which ministers are hirelings, is to see who ran away and who didn't. All the ministers, including local elders, in the UK left the flock and ran away to join UCG, hoping that the flock would follow after them. Not one of them stood up at the lectern, and told the brethren not to drink the spiritual poison Mr. Tkach was feeding the sheep. They simply placed their financial security before the spiritual welfare of God's people, for whom Christ died.

Knowing the terror of the Lord, I shudder to think of of the consequences of their betrayal of God's people. For I know him, who says, "Judgment is mine says the Lord, I will repay."

John's narrative continues: "The hireling flees, because he is a hireling, and care not for the sheep." In other words, the hireling is in for the money. His love for the sheep is just a pretense!

So all the sermons these men gave about love and concern for God's people were nothing but "hogwash," to use the vulgar term. They were all hirelings, motivated by money and power.

That is not how the Apostles behaved. In midst of savage, brutal and cruel persecution, they didn't fail to preach the gospel, and lay down their lives for the people of God. And their heroic deeds, they attributed to the grace of God, which made fearless in the presence of their insane and malevolent enemies.

If you know any ministers that spoke out against Tkach's heresy, because their primary concern was spiritual welfare of God's elect, please let me have their names?

"Firstly, I don't have an opinion about who is a hireling. All I do is examined the definition and the described behaviour of a hireling in the bible, and then see whose behaviour fits the definition."

Works for me too.

Firstly, I don't have an opinion about who is a Christian. All I do is examined the definition and the described behaviour of a believer in the bible, and then see whose behaviour fits the definition.

And you lost too...it's not my opinion either...you just don't fit what I found in the NT and all the rancour you inspire pretty much tells the story. You are a Satan boy, who has no church worthy of him. Knows no man who can teach him and the idea of gentleness, goodness,meekness, patience, kindness, longsuffering has escaped him because it has to be tempered with the damning justice of an angry God.

Ok, other than that, you are a very good Christian. Like a well without water or a tree without fruit, perhaps, but ok I suppose if you are ever around only those that aren't thirsty or hungry.

"As long as a person leaves the church, it doesn't matter what you think of him, in God's eyes, he has fallen from grace.

Also, because he was right in proving that Pentecost was on a Sunday, and was, in your estimation, of a milder disposition than many of his fellow evangelists, doesn't mean that he wasn't a hireling."

Tom, I'm not interested in the least about Martin's or anyone else's place in the "church", however you may define it. It seems to many of us here that you confidently place only yourself and the Supreme Hireling HWA in that "true church". Yes, Armstrong was a hireling too, and the only reason he didn't leave or get kicked out of the Radio/Worldwide Church of God is because he was the pastor-general, the boss, the CEO, the chairman of the board. But don't say he wasn't a hireling.

Any number of ministers left or were kicked out of the Armstrong church for the very reason that they sought to actually do some good for people rather than simply lord it over the lay members. They sincerely believed that the larger organization was becoming quite harmful to the membership, and that extended all the way to the top. Again, I don't defend their theology, but I defend the actions of some of those people in getting out of a corrupt and mind-controlling organization. I hope that over the years, they didn't themselves become corrupt mind-controllers, but power corrupts, after all.

>>I know of local elders who preached grace that were disfellowshipped from the WCG by these men. That level of subterfuge and double dealing is is only found in those well schooled in the ways of Machavelli. The dual masks of the Malnet logo seems to have been aptly chosen.<<

Doesn't this succinctly sums up the duplicity and treachery of the hirelings those who started UCG?

Have you ever considered the possibility that "Mr." Tkach could have been correct? One consistent rumor has been that HWA hand picked Joe, Sr, and instructed him to correct the WCG errors.

Each side of this "new" and "classic" debate has strong stacks of scripture to support their major beliefs. In fact, both are so strong that I don't see how a person could even begin to choose one over the other. I believe that most of the people just picked whichever one was in their comfort zone, and have stuck with their choice. I know I'd have misgivings about either choice.

Well, Corky, I guess I didn't make myself clear. I am astonished at the bitterness and vitriol on display here. Virtually nothing that happened in the Church should have caused you personal offense. Yes, there were some who were not truly committed to God, but that is their problem, not yours. Having faith in the Almighty God solves alot of issues.

"Virtually nothing that happened in the Church should have caused you personal offense. Yes, there were some who were not truly committed to God, but that is their problem, not yours. Having faith in the Almighty God solves alot of issues."

Larry said, "Virtually nothing that happened in the Church should have caused you personal offense."

MY COMMENT - Larry, did you mortgage your house and give the proceeds to Armstrong for the "final" push - the final gunlap? Did anyone of your relatives die because the church taught against use of medical profession in the 1950s/1960s?

I don't know how much more personal offense you can get than unnecessary death and/or extortion of funds under false pretenses

I am here to screw with your minds. I am here as a sounding board for my own ego.I am here as an justifier for HWA.I am here to endorse a self righteous attitude for all who believe that Herbert was used by God.I am just toying with all of you as to test your resolve. You failed.I am here to say "meth" does not exist in my world...until one of my kids starts using.I am here to prove my superiority over former ministers, members, and anyone else who does not go by the initials HWA.I am called "gay" for a reason.Tom.

Tom and Larry. I'll be glad to help you two gentlemen start your own ACOG. I got a bad rub from HWA, but I can really be helpful in the miracles dept. Unlike Herbie's false prophecies, my miracles will be seemless and transparent, utterly convincing!

God SAYS all of you, and HE means all of you, need to be "SPANKED" until YOU submit to Mr. Handstrong's power and glory. TOM, DICK & LARRY'S CHURCH OF GOD will line all of you up for just the loving and kind beating you all deserve! YOU WILL submit to OUR AUTHORITY or face ETERNAL DAMNATION!

With the love of Jesus,Tom, Dick and Larry (not to be confused with the cable guy)

Larry said, "Richard, I don't know that anyone has sacrificed more than I have. It seems unlikely."

MY COMMENT - Oh really? Please tell us about your sacrifice that was more than anyone else. I would have thought those who died unnecessary deaths (and, I would include the people Ratzmann killed) sacrificed more than you Larry, but let's hear your story.

Well, Corky, I guess I didn't make myself clear. I am astonished at the bitterness and vitriol on display here.

You haven't been a WCG member long have you?

Virtually nothing that happened in the Church should have caused you personal offense.

Cough...ahem....where do I possibly start in response to this statement? LOL!!!

Yes, there were some who were not truly committed to God, but that is their problem, not yours.

It was our problem too. We enabled them with our money, no questions asked! Not anymore though!

Having faith in the Almighty God solves alot of issues.

Having faith in God, comes not by seeing, but by hearing - by listening to God in ones life and trusting God to deal in our best interest for what we need to learn in our life. It enables us to confidently do what must be done, including speaking truth to power.

Personal faith hasn't much to do with how others behave themselves. Nor will it change what they do.

But a good confrontation or slap in the face - Just might! Faith is not passive-agressive.

>>>Have you ever considered the possibility that "Mr." Tkach could have been correct?<<<

He was correct on some topics. Such as, Christians are born again at baptism and the new covenant is in operation now. But after Joe and Mike met with the people from Azuzu Pacific, he allowed them to deceive him into adopting Protestantism.

As a consequence, he announced that the Sabbath had been done away; Christians could vote; birthdays could be celebrated and that when sick, going to the doctor should take precedence over being anointed: just to mention a few heretical changes.

>>One consistent rumor has been that HWA hand picked Joe, Sr, and instructed him to correct the WCG errors.<<

This may or may not be true. But it is more likely that God wanted to expose the hirelings that were fleecing the flock, and make manifest the genuine members of the church. That is why Paul was inspired to write: "For there must be also heresies among you, that they which are approved may be made manifest among you"(1 Cor.11:19).

It was only after the introduction of the Tkach heresies, that the true motivation of the hireling ministers was exposed. Many of them queued up to received a financial package to betray the flock, and then went and joined UCG. My local "minister" was very unhappy because he ONLY got £15,000 redundancy, after 25 years ministerial service. It will testify against him in the day of judgment.

"Each side of this "new" and "classic" debate has strong stacks of scripture to support their major beliefs. In fact, both are so strong that I don't see how a person could even begin to choose one over the other. I believe that most of the people just picked whichever one was in their comfort zone, and have stuck with their choice. I know I'd have misgivings about either choice."

I disagree completely. The arguments for HWA's theology are very weak and unsupported. The arguments for orthodoxy are compeling and overwhelming. It's not about comfort zone. When we were finally given permission to critically examine the evidence, HWA's theology fell way short in the Biblical record. His cut-and-paste exegesis did not stand up. As for comfort, you are right. Those who stayed with the old wine were in their comfort zones. When I was confronted with the reality that is the true gospel message, it was uncomfortable to remain in error.

bamboo_bends, all I can say is that everyone is responsible for their own behavior. Getting bent out of shape because of what someone else is doing serves no useful purpose. God is quite capable of taking care of such problems, and some of the events described on this board prove that He has. Faith actually comes directly from the Almighty. We have all been hurt, we have all suffered. Most have lost friendships, family members, possessions. But it is important not to obsess over what has been lost. It is ALL replaceable, and has been, and will be replaced many times over.

larry said... Well, Corky, I guess I didn't make myself clear. I am astonished at the bitterness and vitriol on display here. Virtually nothing that happened in the Church should have caused you personal offense.

Au contraire, you make yourself perfectly clear and everyone here knows that you are a duped victim of Armstrongism. We've all been there but some of us wised up and figured out the con-game for what it is.

My mother's unnecessary and untimely death because of Armstrongism doctrines, false prophecies, sacrificing so that a rich man can live a lavish lifestyle did offend me somewhat.

I'm not "bitter", as some would say, but I have heard too much from people attempting to make us who have wised up out to be the ones in the wrong.

We didn't "throw out the baby with the bath water". There is no baby in the bath water to start with.

What you see here is not "bitterness and vitriol". What you see here are people who are incredulous of others who are still fooled and righteously angry about being duped and taken advantage of by a con-man.

One thing we can't do here at AW is to invalidate someone else's experience or where in the process they are. Where someone should or shouldn't be or what they should or shouldn't think or know or feel, is really no one's business.

If one can't be encouraged or encouraging then they need to think twice about opening their mouths.

I know we get cracking off at times, and some provoke it for sure, but keeping to the topic or sharing thoughts is much better than the "ram it down your throat, I'm right" approach isn't it?

How many times has anyone of us convinced another of something we now do or don't believe? Hardly ever...if ever.

The rancour comes when one starts demanding in their tone or way of saying what they say, that they are more correct or get that judgemental Bible quoter mentality going,we're all familiar with.

I think we have probably gotten Tom's take on hirelings and it need not be repeated ad naseum. We all know the same quotes and books. We all see our current selves through the filters we have installed at this time.

Some believe they filter their truth perfectly through the Bible, Old and New, which of course they don't. They then feel a compulsive urge to tell everyone how it all is when, in fact, it's is that way for them, but not most others. Throw in the usual, "and I think I have the mind of Christ" idea, and you can't explain anything to people who think like that.

Saying it's a lot easier to "trust God" is just simply foolish. It is not "easier" to just trust God. That's when the squirrels move in and steal your nuts. Or wacho's move in an steal your brain.

The Religious with ulterior motives love it when the believer's quote and follow the scriptures on respecting the leader and he speaks for God.

It's where we have gotten the terrible concept that "God corrects the minister." What bullshit. And for a man to tell people that is beyond my comprehension. He's ill.

Sometimes I believe those scriptures were later additions to exert fear, guilt, shame and control over the evolving church.Not unlike the story of Annanias and Sapphira, which I believe to be a spoof on Peter but also served to put "great fear upon the church." Nice church! I want to belong out of abject fear.

It's like Roman's where we all have to obey the powers that be "for they are here for our good." etc..Only the ignorant would believe that. I believe the "obey the state' scriptures were added later as the church had to function and survive in a Roman, "or we'll kill you" environment.

We'd have no American Revolution and America as we know it had we obeyed such tripe when it needed to be ignored.

As the Apostle of the only multi galaxy spanning Church of God, my ongoing mission is to boldly go where no man has gone before and preach Armstrongism to the various life forms throughout the universe.

It is with great sadness that I must take time out of my interplanetary travels to mark and disfellowship Tom Mahon and his adherents. He has continuously promoted heresies too numerous to mention, and has caused divisions and schisms by his unforgiving Klingon attitude.

We must hold no ill will towards him, but it is okay to pity him. All communication with him is to cease immediately. He is to be shunned while turned over to Satan for the saving of his soul.

On a more positive note.... We have just raised our cryogenically revived Mr. Dennis Diehl to the rank of Intergalactic Evangelist! Lest anyone accuse him of being a hireling... (And you know who you are!) his warp50 MAX2500 spaceship and multi-translator were all paid for out of his own pocket! He has been a generous contributor to the work too, ever since he was assigned to pastor the quadrant of the galaxy which has asteroids of pure gold!

So yes, this work shall continue. Jesus shall return in just 5 to 10 more short years. There are still more planets that have not heard the gospel, and we must do all we can to reach them before cosmic tribulation begins and it is too late!

Pope Pontificus Maximus Prolificanus XXVI said, "It is with great sadness that I must take time out of my interplanetary travels to mark and disfellowship Tom Mahon and his adherents. He has continuously promoted heresies too numerous to mention, and has caused divisions and schisms by his unforgiving Klingon attitude".

MY COMMENT - And let' not forget Tom Mahon promised to show us his picture after he criticized a picture of Dennis Diehl, but he never did. He is guilty of bearing false witness to the brethren.

Sadly and of course and truly truly, I simply cannot accept this position. It's nothing but trouble. I'll return the Fleet Warp 50 and go back to my Saturn wagon with 172,000 light years on it. She's holdin together but she wasn't made for this, I know she kenna take much more Captain!

I heard a preacher on the radio yesterday ranting about how is mama didn't call him to be a minister. His papa didn't call him to be a minister. He didn't pay no school to make him a minister...It was GOD who made him a minister of Jesus Christ.

He reached the crescendo by yelling that like Jesus and Paul, he was called from birth and then burst out with "I'm like Jeremiah...I sprang forth from my mothers bosom..."

Hmmmmmm, I was telling the radio..."lower man...lower...womb. You sprang forth from the womb....not the bosom" I love the Baptist comedy hour.

bamboo_bends, all I can say is that everyone is responsible for their own behavior. Getting bent out of shape because of what someone else is doing serves no useful purpose.

What business is it of yours if I choose to get bent out of shape or not?

The only obsession I see here is Tom's obsession that Armstrong brought us truth from God.

What you object to is hearing is our opinions about it.

You want to think God is still in that mess, but the Internet keeps knocking that notion right out of your head.

God is quite capable of taking care of such problems, and some of the events described on this board prove that He has.

You mean we should revert to dumb sheep mode?

Faith actually comes directly from the Almighty.

We have all been hurt, we have all suffered. Most have lost friendships, family members, possessions.

And at who's hand? Those ministers that were telling us "God is quite capable of taking care of things", while they made quite sure they took care of themselves and their retirements before they took care of the membership.

But it is important not to obsess over what has been lost. It is ALL replaceable, and has been, and will be replaced many times over.

With yet MORE Churches of God no doubt?

I've yet to see a replacement for the money I've given the WCG in my 34 years of attendance. Nope. That money's gone. And I'll be working until I die to replace the money I gave away to my church. After all the end time was near!

To quote Yosemite Sam, The critter went and done it: Ron Weinland said he will announce New Truth to explain why (to quote a sign at Tiananmen Square) Nothing happened. We just have to wait until the Feast of sTrumpets to learn what he meant to say...

Tom needs attention fellow children. Please comment on his blog so that he can feel good about himself. Now Tom will beat you over the head with his armstrong stick but you shall recover to fight another day...then another day...then another....

Well feed little Tom well. He needs all he can get from you! So start posting here and on his Blog. This is what Tommy really wants you to do children. Obey Tommy or he will really piss you off by killing your dog or cat. Tommy hates to lose! I remember when he was a child and had a lemonade stand. Tommy always got grounded by shorting people with his lemonade product. Then there was the time Tommy was caught by the police choking his monkey. Now that was cruel and pointless, but Tommy does what he will do. His father and I tried to teach him different but to no avail! Tommy's father and I tried our best but it seems we failed to raise a decent and honest son. I am sorry for his posts here and will take him home now for a spanking. Tommy will apologize for his lies. I promise.

Now you're getting close Tom. Just read The Pagan Christ, or google "E Wallis Budge".

PurplePeopleEater,

The book called The Pagan Christ by Tom Harpur actually supports Herbert Armstrong's teaching that the Catholic and Protestant churches of this world got their beliefs from paganism and NOT from the Bible. The Pagan Christ goes over how things like Sunday observance, the Trinity, Christmas, Easter, the idea of going to Heaven at death, etc. came from paganism. Tom Harpur finally came to realise the pagan origin of these beliefs. Unfortunately, Tom was so biblically illiterate that he assumed that these Catholic and Protestant (and Pagan) ideas were in the Bible. They are NOT. The Bible teaches something completely different.

The Pagan Christ does not prove the pagan origin of the Bible. It just shows the pagan origin of the teachings of the Catholic and Protestant churches. It actually confirms some of the things that Herbert Armstrong said.

No altar calls for PurplePeople(and Ham Sandwich)Eaters. Just a warning that nobody should carelessly mention this book as any sort of proof of the pagan origin of the Bible. To do so shows either ignorance or else deliberate dishonesty.

Six things stinketh unto the Lord. Yea, seven are an abomination to Him.

1. Two Witnesses who are neither Two, nor witnessing.

2. A Presiding Evangelist who sees Baal the Storm God in every hurricane, flood, earthquake, tornado and generally expected phenomenon in the places one would expect to find them, and then reannounces "you can sure its almost time for Jesus to return." again.

3. A Watcher turned Apostle who orders,"send it in for the end time push of God's work," and then announces the building of a new headquarters, auditorium, college campus with even a small gym perhaps and a view that will blow your mind. And slips his marriage into a sermon, missing a golden opportunity for the 33 people in his church to give them gifts.

4. False Prophets who forget their prophecies and can now reseal, reopen, reannounce and restate what didn't work the first time, as if they never said a thing. That would be quite insane.

5. Fake Fall Festival Cruises for Jesus. I happen to know that whenver Jesus is on a boat, he falls asleep.

6. Blogs that do indeed Surprise God by noting, "The Triune God created all people to participate through the vicarious humanity of Jesus Christ in the love relationship enjoyed by the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit." as if that translates into anything that anyone can actually understand or explain. And frankly, leaves out the female principle which means the men are going to screw it up again!

7. Clogged Writers who say, "But the type of deadly destruction that the 2012 prophecies appear to be referring to is not likely to happen until a few years AFTER 2012". As if he knows more than God's Mayan's do!

Tom is the Blog (drunk on armstrong)! You know, the Otis of Mayberry! There are other descriptions I could come up with, but that would be futile.Resistance To Tom is futile. He is an authority on EVERYTHING! Presidential material I would say.......

larry said... And Corky, since you seem to have all the answers, please tell me what I should do. I am listening.

I have no idea what you should do. You can, for instance, quit listening to other men who are no better and know no more than you do - even though they claim they do.

You can read as well as they can and you don't have to take their word that they understand things more than you. They don't!

You can claim your freedom. However, there is a cost: you will have to start making your own decisions instead of letting another man make your decisions for you as if he is your parent.

What you "should do" is stand on your own two feet without using human guides as a crutch.

If you want to make sense of the Bible, good luck, men have tried and failed to do that for centuries - as is evidenced by the 34,000 or so of different denominations, sects and cults of Christendom. You would have the chance of the snowball in hell of picking the "right one" because, as history shows, there never was just one.

Thank you Corky, I have done precisely that. This is why I am still in the WCG. You seem to completely discount the possibility that God actually conveys understanding. In both yours and Bamboo_bends' posts, I sense that you do not give God credit at all. Because some of the people and/or ministers in the Church were imperfect (I am shocked), you assume that there is/was no understanding (and worse, no faith) there. Whatever you may think of current or former members of the Church of God with all their imperfections and frailties, they are the bravest people on this planet, bar none.

>>>I don't know who Tom is, but you guys certainly seem to have it in for him.<<<

I attended with WCG, England, from 1975 until July 1995, when I left because I didn't agree with most of Tkach's doctrinal changes. But I still believe that Jesus has abolished death, and has brought life and immortality to light through the gospel.

As for the people here having it in for me, don't let that detract you from posting what you believe. I glory in being reviled. It is a manifest token that God is counting me worthy of his kingdom.

And, speaking of bravery, how many of your brethren do you believe would go to their deaths if the authorities or some persecutor lined them up at gunpoint and began executing the ones who refused to deny that they loved Jesus?

I don't understand how anyone could come into Armstrongism after 1975! Did no one explain to you the failed prophecy? I mean this was a really devastating blow to HWA's credibility, and the authenticity of the whole organization!

"I don't understand how anyone could come into Armstrongism after 1975! Did no one explain to you the failed prophecy? I mean this was a really devastating blow to HWA's credibility, and the authenticity of the whole organization!"

The same way the NT church kept on and flourished after Paul realized the We wasn't he or them.

Apostle Paul:

I Thess 4:

15 According to the Lord's own word, we tell you that WE who are still alive, who are left till the coming of the Lord, will certainly not precede those who have fallen asleep. 16For the Lord himself will come down from heaven, with a loud command, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet call of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. 17After that, WE who are still alive and are left will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so WE will be with the Lord forever. 18Therefore encourage each other with these words.

"But this I say, brethren, the time is short: it remaineth, that both they that have wives be as though they had none; And they that weep, as though they wept not: and they that rejoice, as though they rejoiced not; and they that buy, as though they possessed not; And they that use this world, as not abusing it: for the fashion of this world passeth away" (1 Corinthians 7, 29-31).

I think this crowd can come up with dozens of false NT musings about the impending return of Jesus, BACK THEN (and they weren't looking ahead 2000 years) in the early church, to know that it never stopped the march of a church one bit.

larry said... Thank you Corky, I have done precisely that. This is why I am still in the WCG.

No you haven't, if you had been thinking for yourself you would know that God doesn't inspire men to lord it over congregations or believers or change doctrines every other day.

You seem to completely discount the possibility that God actually conveys understanding.

Mentally or physically? Or, does this "understanding" come from some other man who claims that he has understanding?

In both yours and Bamboo_bends' posts, I sense that you do not give God credit at all.

I can't speak for bamboo_bends but personally, I wouldn't give God credit for the creation of the WCG.

Because some of the people and/or ministers in the Church were imperfect (I am shocked), you assume that there is/was no understanding (and worse, no faith) there. Whatever you may think of current or former members of the Church of God with all their imperfections and frailties, they are the bravest people on this planet, bar none.

Oh? You know what I think now, do you? How many of the fruits of the spirit have you observed in the WCG? Have you observed any gifts of the spirit? I know for a fact that you haven't observed the gift of prophecy! The WCG has been 100% wrong ever since HWA predicted that Hitler would win the world war and make us all into slaves.

If Ron plays his cards right, shows proper humility and sincerity, in a year, it will all be like it never happened. He'll be compared to the hopes of the early Apostles. Tons of sermon material there.

Times are funky enough to keep any "time is short" agenda alive and well, and not matter what happens..attack on Iran by Israel or US or both, Tsunami's, aspertame or bovine growth hormones, it's all prophetic.

However, if Israel gets it's ass kicked (as well it should) with no second coming...that could cause some pause for reflection!

Ron, Dave, Gerald, Rod and the whole send it in gang will do just fine. It's a good business to be in, along with selling guns and survival packs.

Um..., OK, Corky, As I mentioned, I am a member of the Worldwide Church of God. The church you describe is one with which I am unfamiliar. You may need to consider the idea that your appraisal of the situation is not applicable to all.

Any number of ministers left or were kicked out of the Armstrong church for the very reason that they sought to actually do some good for people rather than simply lord it over the lay members.

I call bullshit.

We didn't "throw out the baby with the bath water". There is no baby in the bath water to start with.

OBBitterInvective: More likely the baby was a rotting, bloated, maggot-infested corpse.

The book called The Pagan Christ by Tom Harpur actually supports Herbert Armstrong's teaching

I call bullshit part two.

that the Catholic and Protestant churches of this world got their beliefs from paganism and NOT from the Bible.

I call bullshit part THREE. Clearly, anon here has not READ the book themselves, as the book in question states THE BIBLE comes from paganism (Egyptian paganism to be precise).

Unfortunately, Tom was so biblically illiterate

Tom Mahon, yes. Tom Harpur, well here's his (abridged) biography. Judge for yourself (I know you will LOL) if you think he's "biblically illiterate" when he:

Won several scholarships at University of Toronto including the Jarvis Scholarship in Greek and Latin; The Maurice Hutton Scholarship in Classics; The Sir William Mulock Scholarship in Classics; and the Gold Medal in Classics.

Attended Oxford University on a Rhodes Scholarship 1951-1954.

Studied theology and tutored in Greek at Wycliffe College, University of Toronto, 1954-56.

Won prizes in homiletics and Greek.

Began career as an Anglican priest at St. Margaret's-in-the-Pines, West Hill, Ontario (1957-1964).

Professor of New Testament at University of Toronto (Toronto School of Theology) from 1964 to 1971.

Fellow of the Religious Public Relations Council (USA).

Awarded The Silver Medal for Outstanding Journalism by the State of Israel in 1976.

Listed in U.S. Who's Who in Religion, Canadian Who's Who, and the most recent edition of Men of Achievement, (Cambridge, England).

In both yours and Bamboo_bends' posts, I sense that you do not give God credit at all.

Oh I give credit to God for giving me a ring side seat (and previews even) of the whole "reformation" and "deformation" of the WCG.

I do not blame Joe Tkach more than I do David Hulmes, Victor Kubiks, and Rod Merediths of Armstrongism.They all are quite capable of cutting throats for power positions, although Joe was a little more open about it, the UCG folks liked to use proxies.

They all balloxed it up!

And can you imagine my face when I saw them all lie? These golden men set on the golden hills of Colorado Blvd behaved worse than the worse any member I have known. And they had such disdain for lowly members, until we stopped sending them tithes!

The membership just wanted to please God. The preachers wanted to please themselves.

Sounds pretty detached from his own announcement as if he didn't give it himself or he wasn't there to hear himself give it. "It" means "I mentioned."

"that a sermon would be given on Sept. 30th (Feast of Trumpets) that would explain the 50th truth given to God’s Church in these end times."

Again, very detached. "That I would give a sermon" would be taking more responsibility for setting such a distant date. Dave Pack has a habit of saying he knows things he can't yet reveal. What a ploy. The Apostle Paul, however did the same thing saying he saw and heard things in his visions that he could not share. hmmmmm. Must be a school somewhere for "keep em on the edge of their seats."

"Since some have been pouring out their hearts to God concerning this matter,"

and calling me telling me to spit it out now or they are out of here.

"God is now mercifully granting that this sermon be given this coming Sabbath."

Sounds like another favor God is doing Ron. Didn't Ron say that he asked God to grant him some specific smiting powers reserved for some of his special enemies?

I have to say, I never got such a fast response to any prayer of mine like that! Did God appear to Ron in a dream and tell him, "Doh...Ron, we won't have a true church if you delay this until September. Let's go ahead and spill the beans this week."

Israel does not go around beheading people for Allah. They are a tad more civilized than those rag head religious fanatics in the middle east.

Now Larry, I to was a member for years after the change. WCG is still a cult. Look how it manages. From the top on down. Trade name, Tkach for Armstrong, its the same thing just less brutal in the way they handle people. But they do have their greedy hand in the till just like Herbie.

Comments heat up and get somewhat personal, yet Anon answers with great restraint, civility, and tact.

purplehymnal said...

I call [everything] bullshit [since I have a limited vocabulary and know few nouns other than those having to do with smut].

We didn't "throw out the baby with the bath water". There is no baby in the bath water to start with.

[Bull., bull., bull. ....]

PurplePeopleEater,

Of course there is no baby there anymore, now that you killed it, PurpleBabyEater!

As for Tom Harpur's supposedly great education, what does it all really amount to? Tom Harpur might be educated in the so-called "classics." Oh boy, such uselessness! Tom Harpur might be educated in the ways of churches that eat ham, keep Sunday, celebrate Christmas, observe Easter, believe in the Trinity, believe in going either to heaven or to an ever burning hell when they die, etc. Wow, such ready made nonsense just poured into his head (perhaps through a funnel)! Tom Harpur might even be educated in the ways of Egypt. What a stuffed brain! But Tom Harpur is certainly NOT educated about the Bible!!! He is just full of paganism (and some would say squishy New Age nonsense), and suddenly noticed in his old age that the teachings of the Catholic and Protestant churches are the same as the paganism of Egypt. But his eyes have not yet been opened to see what the Bible teaches. The Bible teaches something completely different than what Egypt has ever had.

Come now, PurpleInfantChewer, let us reason together. Take that baby's leg out of your mouth and think for once. Is not your own great ignorance of the Bible something to be greatly ashamed of? Is not your dishonest bulldung as bad as the sin of false prophets like Gerald the runt? After all, both you and Gerald try to keep people ignorant and try to get them to end up hating God. Is the term Atheist really just a euphemism for being totally depraved, and mentally and morally bankrupt?

Now, have a nice day--but not too nice. You need to do some serious thinking for once in your miserable existence. Do not just endlessly and stupidly repeat the only noun you know.

larry said... Um..., OK, Corky, As I mentioned, I am a member of the Worldwide Church of God. The church you describe is one with which I am unfamiliar. You may need to consider the idea that your appraisal of the situation is not applicable to all.

Well, I'm familiar with the WCG as is everyone else here. If this is not the same "church", what are you doing here?

We're here talking about the WCG of which Herbert Armstrong used to be the lord and master over and all the little splits, splinters and CoGlets that always happen when a "church" throws up.

So anyway, if you're satisfied and happy with your church, life etc., why are you here? Surely you don't think for a minute that you are going to convert anyone back into one of the Armstrong cults - do you? Surely you don't think that you are going to talk us into not talking about those Armstrong cults any old way we want to, do you?

Corky, good question. I guess I am really not sure why I posted on this board. I suppose it is because I hate seeing truth distorted. No, I do not expect to "convert" anyone, but it is important that information be factual.

Does someone have to be dissatisfied with their church life to be here? I wasn't aware of that qualification.

It is necessary that the record be straight though. Herbert Armstrong was never "lord and master" and the WCG is not now, and never was a "cult". When lies and mistruths are told and retold, they often somehow take on a life of their own.

If I didn't already know more about the WCG than any of you, I would come away from this board believing any number of things about the Church that were not true. Shame on you for deceiving people this way.

The people (and ministers) that I know in the WCG right now (and I know quite a few) are invariably humble, kind, faithful, and generous as well as brave. They are also more knowledgeable about the scriptures than the vast majority of any seminary graduates. By suggesting that they are somehow brainwashed ignorant whackos, you are incredibly insulting.

Since you are apparently a WCG member in good standing, could you post the WCG financial statement? This information is available only to members in good standing, of which you apparently are one so you should have no trouble getting it.

Where is financial disclosure and full accountability for the balance sheet, income and expense statement for the WCG? What are the WCG assets and total debts? Disaster fund balance and detailed expenditures?

What did the properties liquidate for? Should be listed and itemized on the hidden financial statements. Why such extreme, unwarranted secrecy?

How are the Tkachs contractually compensated, and for how long?

When do the church association cult bylaws get revised, as Tkach Jr. misled many to believe?

LM: It is stated in there that you control the board of directors of the church. So you can pick and choose who is going to be the board of the Worldwide Church of God. That board controls the church and its assets. As a result, effectively you control the church's assets. Is that accurate?

TKACH JR: Ah, not entirely, no. Ah, first of all, I'd mentioned that we are currently in the process of revising our bylaws so that the position I hold is elected...December 4, 1997

DB>>You are being reviled because you are an idiot, not because of any profound enlightenment you profess, but just because you are so pathetic.<<

Nothing you say is going to stop me from glorying in being reviled.

When all my detractors can do is resort to abuse, then it is evident they have lost the argument. Or what is more likely, they are incapable of marshaling an argument in defence of their ill conceived opinions.

Shouting abuse might impress your fan club, but it can have no impact on those who are secure in knowledge of truth, and are above the approbations of the practice of vulgar.

>>>Well, Corky, I The people (and ministers) that I know in the WCG right now (and I know quite a few) are invariably humble, kind, faithful, and generous as well as brave.<<<

Firstly, just as the people who post here have every right to challenge your beliefs and the behaviour of the ministers you support, you have every right to defend what you believe and the ministers you believe are doing the work of God. That said, if the ministers you know are the same ministers that were in WCG at the time of Tkach's death, then your description of them as humble and faithful, doesn't stand up to careful scrutiny. For every one of them fits the biblical description of a hireling.

Secondly, do you seriously believe the Joe junior was the most qualified minister to take over WCG after the "untimely" death of his father? I am sure you would agree that there were other men with more years of experience and biblical knowledge than Joe? If that was the case, as it actually was, then Joe's appointment could only be based on nepotism. His appointment, therefore, was no different from GTA and Billy Graham appointing their respective sons as their successors.

And I haven't even began to examine the doctrinal changes, which Steve thinks are wonderful!

Larry said, "It is necessary that the record be straight though. Herbert Armstrong was never "lord and master" and the WCG is not now, and never was a "cult". When lies and mistruths are told and retold, they often somehow take on a life of their own."

MY COMMENT - Larry, my family's Armstrong experience goes back to the early 1950s. I have one sibling that graduated from AC. I am very familar with the WCG of the 1960s -1970s.

I don't take too kindly to you calling me a liar, but HWA WAS lord and master, and the WCG IS a cult.

Larry said...It is necessary that the record be straight though. Herbert Armstrong was never "lord and master" and the WCG is not now, and never was a "cult".

If a man sitting in his plush mansion raking in at least 20% of his follower's gross income while his followers do without the basic necessities - and doing all the hiring and firing and making all the decisions, demands and rules and doctrinal changes and claims authority from God that he is an apostle. If that doesn't make him "lord and master", what would?

Not a cult? Ha! Do you know the definitions of a cult? Well, the WCG meets every one of them.

By the way, Herbert W. Armstrong is not "dead and gone". He is very much alive in the literature of all the CoG splinters, in the conversations of the members and in the sermons of the ministers. He still rules, even from the grave.

'...Secondly, do you seriously believe the Joe junior was the most qualified minister to take over WCG after the "untimely" death of his father? I am sure you would agree that there were other men with more years of experience and biblical knowledge than Joe?...'

Underlying most COG problems is their structure. There is no Biblical mandate for a corporate church. Success will come when the one who 'takes over' is Jesus Christ.

The New Testament pattern is for independent congregations - co-operating with one another, looking to the Scriptures as an expression of Christ's authority over them - and not to a corporate headquarters.

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