Announcements

Welcome, everyone, to the new 910CMX Community Forums. I'm still working on getting them running, so things may change. If you're a 910 Comic creator and need your forum recreated, let me know and I'll get on it right away. I'll do my best to make this new place as fun as the last one!

Main Wed June 6 2018

Recommended Posts

Also, sometimes one must weigh potential harm against definite harm. If Elliot and/or Ellen say nothing, Arthur might still figure out Tedd's gender-fluidity (if he hasn't already), and Tedd might be outed to Mr. Verres as well - or maybe one or both won't happen. If they say something now, Tedd will definitely be outed to Arthur and Ashley, and while Arthur might honor their request to not tell Mr. Verres there is no guarantee of that. So the option which has the greatest chance of the fewest people learning of Tedd's gender identity is saying nothing.

The jokes about Arthur always seeing Tedd in girl form notwithstanding, there is no chance that Arthur might not become aware of Tedd having and using boy form. Hiding this information from him is technically part of not outing Tedd, however it will be short-lived and would mean missing opportunity to control how Arthur finds out Tedd has boy form.

The preferred option here might be insisting Tedd is boy. At worst case, Elliot and Ellen might seem stupid and/or rude to Tedd, but there is reasonable chance Arthur will get the point that Tedd being girl is not public, while being completely in sync with not outing Tedd to Ashley.

(Why it seems perfectly normal to me to use "girl" for 18 year old female but weird to use "boy" for 18 year old male?)

14 minutes ago, The Old Hack said:

There is no question of Tedd being outed to Mr. Verres. Mr. Verres already knows that Tedd switches back and forth between male and female. The problem is that Mr. Verres is transphobic and does not even acknowledge that genderfluidity is real. Whether due to ignorance or bigotry, he sees Tedd's gender identity as a sickness or even a perversion. As long as that is the case, Arthur could yell at Edward all day long and it would not change a thing.

Not true. Sure, if it's bigotry, Arthur could yell all day, but if it's ignorance, Arthur is in position to cause Edward think, because unlike Tedd he's adult and authority figure.

Share this post

Link to post

Share on other sites

Not true. Sure, if it's bigotry, Arthur could yell all day, but if it's ignorance, Arthur is in position to cause Edward think, because unlike Tedd he's adult and authority figure.

Err, I think we may have a miscommunication here. I said as long as it is the case referring to his seeing Tedd's gender identity as a sickness/perversion. Should he actually get past that, it will of course no longer be the case.

Though I will add that even bigotry is not necessarily permanent as it is often rooted in fear. Once the fear is out of the equation and the bigot has had the opportunity to see what he feared as human beings, at least some bigots have been known to reconsider their stance.

Share this post

Link to post

Share on other sites

There is no question of Tedd being outed to Mr. Verres. Mr. Verres already knows that Tedd switches back and forth between male and female. The problem is that Mr. Verres is transphobic and does not even acknowledge that genderfluidity is real. Whether due to ignorance or bigotry, he sees Tedd's gender identity as a sickness or even a perversion.

Changing forms on a regular basis and being gender fluid are separate things (even when the forms in question are specifically "male" and "female"). Mr. Verres knows that Tedd physically changes between "male" and "female", but he does not know that Tedd mentally changes between them - and importantly, the last we heard Tedd wanted to keep it that way for now. (On a related note, if Mr. Verres really is bigoted against the transgendered, his learning that Tedd is gender-fluid is not going to improve Tedd and Mr. Verres' relationship.) Hence my concern about Tedd being outed (or if you prefer, being further outed) to Mr. Verres before Tedd is ready.

Share this post

Link to post

Share on other sites

Changing forms on a regular basis and being gender fluid are separate things (even when the forms in question are specifically "male" and "female"). Mr. Verres knows that Tedd physically changes between "male" and "female", but he does not know that Tedd mentally changes between them - and importantly, the last we heard Tedd wanted to keep it that way for now. (On a related note, if Mr. Verres really is bigoted against the transgendered, his learning that Tedd is gender-fluid is not going to improve Tedd and Mr. Verres' relationship.) Hence my concern about Tedd being outed (or if you prefer, being further outed) to Mr. Verres before Tedd is ready.

I can see your concern but I simply do not agree with it. Mr. Verres is already making Tedd's life unsafe with his attitude. He cannot learn that Tedd is 'gender-fluid' as long as he refuses to acknowledge that it is even a thing. He can at most and worst be hardened in his attitude that something is wrong with Tedd. And whether they so inform Arthur is also a moot point. No matter what, the man is not a blabbermouth. Even if Mr. Verres started to argue this with Arthur, Arthur would merely coldly shut him down by informing him that Tedd's services are needed. As for Tedd's and Mr. Verres' relationship, it is already hanging by a thread. The only way Mr. Verres could make it worse would be by attempting to get Tedd 'treatment' for his 'condition', and I cannot see him act with such abject stupidity.

Also, please do not use the word 'transgendered'. Use 'transgender' or 'trans' whenever possible.

Share this post

Link to post

Share on other sites

Not true. Sure, if it's bigotry, Arthur could yell all day, but if it's ignorance, Arthur is in position to cause Edward think, because unlike Tedd he's adult and authority figure.

Err, I think we may have a miscommunication here. I said as long as it is the case referring to his seeing Tedd's gender identity as a sickness/perversion. Should he actually get past that, it will of course no longer be the case.

Doesn't change the fact that adult in position of authority may make him rethink that.

2 hours ago, The Old Hack said:

Though I will add that even bigotry is not necessarily permanent as it is often rooted in fear. Once the fear is out of the equation and the bigot has had the opportunity to see what he feared as human beings, at least some bigots have been known to reconsider their stance.

Fear is known to blind people to reality. In this case, I wouldn't be surprised if Edward would be blinded by his fear of well-being of his son. He is so afraid the TF gun is unhealthy than he dismiss the possibility the reason for his son switching to his daughter predates TF gun.

On the other hand, the option of bigotry and him fearing his son is "one of them" (queer / non-binary / whatever) is also on table. The only non-cis person he interacted with onscreen was Justin and he didn't shown any signs of bigotry, but maybe he doesn't have problem with gays and still have problem with the more complicated stuff ...

1 hour ago, The Old Hack said:

1 hour ago, ChronosCat said:

Changing forms on a regular basis and being gender fluid are separate things (even when the forms in question are specifically "male" and "female"). Mr. Verres knows that Tedd physically changes between "male" and "female", but he does not know that Tedd mentally changes between them - and importantly, the last we heard Tedd wanted to keep it that way for now. (On a related note, if Mr. Verres really is bigoted against the transgendered, his learning that Tedd is gender-fluid is not going to improve Tedd and Mr. Verres' relationship.) Hence my concern about Tedd being outed (or if you prefer, being further outed) to Mr. Verres before Tedd is ready.

I can see your concern but I simply do not agree with it. Mr. Verres is already making Tedd's life unsafe with his attitude. He cannot learn that Tedd is 'gender-fluid' as long as he refuses to acknowledge that it is even a thing. He can at most and worst be hardened in his attitude that something is wrong with Tedd.

1 hour ago, The Old Hack said:

As for Tedd's and Mr. Verres' relationship, it is already hanging by a thread. The only way Mr. Verres could make it worse would be by attempting to get Tedd 'treatment' for his 'condition', and I cannot see him act with such abject stupidity.

Personally, I think that Tedd not wanting to be further outed to Mr. Verres is illogical, because the "partial out" already makes their relationship bad and further outing is unlikely to make it worse.

However, that doesn't look like good argument for outing Tedd further ... it should still be his decision.

1 hour ago, The Old Hack said:

And whether they so inform Arthur is also a moot point. No matter what, the man is not a blabbermouth. Even if Mr. Verres started to argue this with Arthur, Arthur would merely coldly shut him down by informing him that Tedd's services are needed.

Good point. Based on what we know about Arthur, it's very likely he wouldn't want to talk about Tedd's gender identity with Mr. Verres or anyone else, focusing on important points instead.

Share this post

Link to post

Share on other sites

It's interesting that aside from Ashley's confusion and Ellen's "Yes to those things" Arthur's pronoun usage for Tedd is not being addressed. I wonder if Elliot and Ellen will explain matters in more detail to Arthur (and Ashley) before the meeting's over, or if Arthur will be left having to figure it out for himself?

Of course, Elliot and Ellen are in a bit of a hard place regarding Tedd's gender, as he's not really "out" outside his circle of friends, but Arthur already knows about Tedd's female form. Their options are pretty much lie to Arthur and make him think Tedd assumes female form for frivolous or perverted reasons, tell him the truth and betray Tedd's trust, or not really address the issue and hope it doesn't become too much of a problem when he talks with Mr. Verres about Tedd...

...Actually, come to think of it, does anyone besides Grace know that Tedd is gender-fluid? I can't remember if that bit of info was shared among the group. If not then Ellen and Elliot don't have to worry about betraying Tedd's trust as he didn't actually trust him with that info - all they have are their best guesses (which probably wouldn't be very far off the mark, but still). (Of course they'd still need to be careful not to say too much, but they'd be in more of a position to use their own judgement.)

The problem here is that it relys on people making the right assumptions and not the wrong assumptions. Good luck with that.

Share this post

Link to post

Share on other sites

I fear at this point all that Tedd not confronting his father is doing is prolonging his suffering. I honestly feel like it would be better to get over with all at once. Ironically by being “considerate” I feel like his friends are making it worse.

To copy and paste a metaphor here. “I know it looks deep, but it’s often better to be cut deep by a sharp knife than to be raggedly gouged by something dull.” This basically means, Better to be hurt swiftly and deeply than to have something drag on and on.

Share this post

Link to post

Share on other sites

Personally, I think that Tedd not wanting to be further outed to Mr. Verres is illogical, because the "partial out" already makes their relationship bad and further outing is unlikely to make it worse.

However, that doesn't look like good argument for outing Tedd further ... it should still be his decision.

I agree without reservations.

1 hour ago, animalia said:

I fear at this point all that Tedd not confronting his father is doing is prolonging his suffering. I honestly feel like it would be better to get over with all at once. Ironically by being “considerate” I feel like his friends are making it worse.

However, it is still Tedd's decision. Any action here should by preference be to convince her to have it out with her father. Whether Tedd's fears are reasonable or not is a moot point -- they are nonetheless real and in order for her to be able to deal as competently as possible with a heartbreakingly difficult issue, she first needs to face and master her fears. Forcing the confrontation on her when she is not ready for it may not do her any favours.

Share this post

Link to post

Share on other sites

"Hoping for the best" is not an excuse - it's a (very ineffective) course of action.

Also, sometimes one must weigh potential harm against definite harm. If Elliot and/or Ellen say nothing, Arthur might still figure out Tedd's gender-fluidity (if he hasn't already), and Tedd might be outed to Mr. Verres as well - or maybe one or both won't happen. If they say something now, Tedd will definitely be outed to Arthur and Ashley (and will likely feel betrayed if he finds out), and while Arthur might honor their request to not tell Mr. Verres there is no guarantee of that. So the option which has the greatest chance of the fewest people learning of Tedd's gender identity (and also of harming Tedd the least) is saying nothing.

Incorrect. The option which is likely to harm Tedd the least is for either Elliot or Ellen to have a separate, quiet conversation with Arthur.

Catch is, Ashley is pretty smart, she may well figure out Tedd's secret just from what has already been said.

----

I agree with those who say it's Tedd's decision whether or not to have "the talk" with his father.

I almost agree with those who say that outing him couldn't make things worse. But not quite yet.

The expected course of Tedd's life over the next few months based solely on his age is that he's going to graduate from high school and get on with his life, possibly going off to college or otherwise moving out of his father's home, possibly hooking up with another person in a long-term sexual/romantic relationship. (Any guesses whom that other person might be? )

Now if we take into consideration what we (and Arthur) know about Tedd in particular, that gets some very minor adjustments. Basically, he has a good job locked down.

If "the talk" goes horribly wrong after graduation, he loses his father - at a time when he'd be separating from his father and setting his own course anyway. And with the relationship the way it is, losing his father wouldn't be as big a loss as we might wish it would be. Painful, but not a huge disruption in every aspect of his life. Everything else stays much the same.

But if it goes wrong now, he also loses his home unexpectedly and at a point in his life where he's rather busy on the standard course of life and shouldn't be taking the time to find another home and move out. It's a big disruption. Also Arthur might have a harder time hiring a kid still in high school (or a kid who just dropped out) as a researcher, as compared to even a high-school graduate.

Share this post

Link to post

Share on other sites

Catch is, Ashley is pretty smart, she may well figure out Tedd's secret just from what has already been said.

Ashley already knows that Tedd has the TFG and that Ellen's creation involved Elliot getting zapped by it. Ashley could also assume that Tedd may have used it on himself and conclude that was why Arthur was using female pronouns.

I don't think Elliot and Ellen would know about Tedd's FV5 wand yet, that likely didn't come up when Nanase was filling Ellen in on their search. We don't even know if Tedd's shown Grace the wand yet either, I would expect that she'd be the first to know about Tedd being visited by Pandora but it's uncertain because no one has mentioned anything.

Share this post

Link to post

Share on other sites

Also, please do not use the word 'transgendered'. Use 'transgender' or 'trans' whenever possible.

Noted. (...Actually, looking at the usage guides on wiktionary, even replacing "transgendered" with "transgender" in my sentence wouldn't have fully corrected it; it probably should have been "transgender people" (minus the preceding "the" of course)...)

(A bit of a heads up: it's likely I'll make similar mistakes in the future. I'm not very social, and this forum is pretty much the only community where I have a chance to talk about such things; as a result I'm a bit out of touch with the correct terminology. Please do continue to correct me, but try to be gentle. )

Share this post

Link to post

Share on other sites

Noted. (...Actually, looking at the usage guides on wiktionary, even replacing "transgendered" with "transgender" in my sentence wouldn't have fully corrected it; it probably should have been "transgender people"...)

(A bit of a heads up: it's likely I'll make similar mistakes in the future. I'm not very social, and this forum is pretty much the only community where I have a chance to talk about such things; as a result I'm a bit out of touch with the correct terminology. Please do continue to correct me, but try to be gentle. )

I made the same mistake as well. it's only in the past couple years that I've started hearing about what's acceptable or not with regards to terms I had been exposed to for years.

Share this post

Link to post

Share on other sites

(A bit of a heads up: it's likely I'll make similar mistakes in the future. I'm not very social, and this forum is pretty much the only community where I have a chance to talk about such things; as a result I'm a bit out of touch with the correct terminology. Please do continue to correct me, but try to be gentle. )

Not to worry. I do hope I did not come across as offended or rude; I was a bit tired when I wrote my reply and didn't take care in how I phrased myself. Sorry.

41 minutes ago, Scotty said:

I made the same mistake as well. it's only in the past couple years that I've started hearing about what's acceptable or not with regards to terms I had been exposed to for years.

I as well. My corrections are in the spirit of one who has made such mistakes as well. Let us try to help one another in this for I am certainly not perfect either.

Share this post

Link to post

Share on other sites

Also, please do not use the word 'transgendered'. Use 'transgender' or 'trans' whenever possible.

4 hours ago, ChronosCat said:

Noted. (...Actually, looking at the usage guides on wiktionary, even replacing "transgendered" with "transgender" in my sentence wouldn't have fully corrected it; it probably should have been "transgender people"...)

I understand the objection to "transgendered" - it's a verb form. Transgender is not something that someone does - to themselves or to someone else - in real life, and only rarely in fiction. (The happenstance that I regularly read one webcomic where two characters have had it done to them, and am aware of at least two others where one or more characters have had it done to them, notwithstanding.)

But there is a serious inconsistency on when it is, and is not, allowed to use an adjective as a noun referring to people that the adjective applies to. Some skin colors (as representation of ethnicity, even though skin color is not a reliable guide) are fine but others are not, any hair color is fine but "balds" is not, referring to people by their employment or profession is fine in most cases but not all, same for the location of their residence or citizenship... it makes no sense. If "homosexuals" is okay, why not "transgenders"?

Share this post

Link to post

Share on other sites

Not to worry. I do hope I did not come across as offended or rude; I was a bit tired when I wrote my reply and didn't take care in how I phrased myself. Sorry.

Honestly I did find your comment a bit brusque, and assumed you to be offended. It wasn't all that bad though, and it was for a good cause, so I wasn't planning on holding it against you. Anyway, apology accepted.

Share this post

Link to post

Share on other sites

possibly hooking up with another person in a long-term sexual/romantic relationship. (Any guesses whom that other person might be? )

Hooking up with another person? What would Grace said about it? ... oh wait you mean with her. Isn't he already hooked up with her?

6 hours ago, Scotty said:

I don't think Elliot and Ellen would know about Tedd's FV5 wand yet, that likely didn't come up when Nanase was filling Ellen in on their search. We don't even know if Tedd's shown Grace the wand yet either, I would expect that she'd be the first to know about Tedd being visited by Pandora but it's uncertain because no one has mentioned anything.

The FV5 wand is totally unremarkable. Tedd being visited by Pandora and some details about being Seer could be mentioned at least to Nanase if not Ellen, but the specific detail of Tedd having FV5 wand is not important. The other spell, permanent gender change, might, but just barely unless Ellen mentions the possibility Magus will transform her to male.

6 hours ago, ChronosCat said:

A bit of a heads up: it's likely I'll make similar mistakes in the future. I'm not very social, and this forum is pretty much the only community where I have a chance to talk about such things; as a result I'm a bit out of touch with the correct terminology. Please do continue to correct me, but try to be gentle.

I'm also learning mostly on webcomics forums and the other forums might even be counterproductive

1 hour ago, Don Edwards said:

Transgender is not something that someone does - to themselves or to someone else - in real life, and only rarely in fiction. (The happenstance that I regularly read one webcomic where two characters have had it done to them, and am aware of at least two others where one or more characters have had it done to them, notwithstanding.)

Isn't it technically what happened to everyone at Grace's birthday party?

Share this post

Link to post

Share on other sites

The FV5 wand is totally unremarkable. Tedd being visited by Pandora and some details about being Seer could be mentioned at least to Nanase if not Ellen, but the specific detail of Tedd having FV5 wand is not important. The other spell, permanent gender change, might, but just barely unless Ellen mentions the possibility Magus will transform her to male.

We know that Nanase mentioned Tedd being involved in deciding the fate of Magic with Arthur, but probably didn't go into very much detail about it, Arthur might fill in the gaps there if he goes into more detail about why he's giving Tedd a lab and having him research what happened to Ashley, Ellen and Kevin. The simplest explanation would of course be "Tedd was the one that convinced Magic to go this way, only fitting that Tedd helps figure out exactly what is going on now", I know it sound like a punishment, but considering this is stuff Tedd was already doing, and now he's getting paid to do it, can't really call a dream job punishment, can you?

In regards to Tedd's spell and Magus' intention of making Ellen male, I don't think Ellen would allow it just to make Magus happy and then turn around and have Tedd undo it once Magus has gone home. That doesn't sound like a very good solution if Ellen doesn't wish to be male. It would be more satisfying to see Ellen give Magus a verbal beatdown over his assumptions of her.

18 minutes ago, hkmaly said:

Isn't it technically what happened to everyone at Grace's birthday party?

Aside from Ellen of course, but I think a more appropriate term would be genderswapped with modifications.

Share this post

Link to post

Share on other sites

We know that Nanase mentioned Tedd being involved in deciding the fate of Magic with Arthur, but probably didn't go into very much detail about it,

... possibly due tu time constrains. Tedd might be more verbose when talking to her.

27 minutes ago, Scotty said:

Arthur might fill in the gaps there if he goes into more detail about why he's giving Tedd a lab and having him research what happened to Ashley, Ellen and Kevin.

Sounds like big if. I don't think Arthur considers necessary to explain any details, unless it will be in order to convince Ashley to take Kevin and she doesn't look like needing more convincing.

30 minutes ago, Scotty said:

The simplest explanation would of course be "Tedd was the one that convinced Magic to go this way, only fitting that Tedd helps figure out exactly what is going on now", I know it sound like a punishment, but considering this is stuff Tedd was already doing, and now he's getting paid to do it, can't really call a dream job punishment, can you?

In regards to Tedd's spell and Magus' intention of making Ellen male, I don't think Ellen would allow it just to make Magus happy and then turn around and have Tedd undo it once Magus has gone home. That doesn't sound like a very good solution if Ellen doesn't wish to be male. It would be more satisfying to see Ellen give Magus a verbal beatdown over his assumptions of her.

I was thinking more like Ellen being worried Magus wouldn't take "no" for an answer.

Share this post

Link to post

Share on other sites

Noted. (...Actually, looking at the usage guides on wiktionary, even replacing "transgendered" with "transgender" in my sentence wouldn't have fully corrected it; it probably should have been "transgender people" (minus the preceding "the" of course)...)

(A bit of a heads up: it's likely I'll make similar mistakes in the future. I'm not very social, and this forum is pretty much the only community where I have a chance to talk about such things; as a result I'm a bit out of touch with the correct terminology. Please do continue to correct me, but try to be gentle. )

El Goonish Shive is how I first heard of gender fluidity, the forums are how I heard of several other terminologies, and overall, I'm pretty sure El Goonish Shive is the first webcomic I read with same-sex relationships.

Share this post

Link to post

Share on other sites

But there is a serious inconsistency on when it is, and is not, allowed to use an adjective as a noun referring to people that the adjective applies to. Some skin colors (as representation of ethnicity, even though skin color is not a reliable guide) are fine but others are not, any hair color is fine but "balds" is not, referring to people by their employment or profession is fine in most cases but not all, same for the location of their residence or citizenship... it makes no sense. If "homosexuals" is okay, why not "transgenders"?

It all has to do with usage rather than specific forms. Words change character according to the way they are most generally employed as well as the intent behind their use. 'Feminist' started as an insult, then was claimed as a badge of pride by those it was used against. 'Faggot' used to mean a mere length of wood employed as fuel for a fire and then became a slur in at least some parts of the English-speaking world. In a world without racism the N-word and its original Latin form might have been a mere indicator of colour but it is now widely considered one of the foulest slurs in the entire language... except when it is used ironically by the people it was meant to dehumanise. (I almost used 'denigrate' here, which would have been the height of irony -- I caught myself in time and looked up the etymology of the damned word and it means 'to blacken'!)

In short, whether a word is a slur, a profound offence or a mere descriptor varies with general usage, the era it is employed in, the person using it and the intent behind its use. This can be the veriest maze and the only way one can really be certain of what one is doing is to keep up with the people the word is meant to be applied to -- which means asking them, if you are not sure. There are transgender people who might not take offence at it, most of them having half a century or more to their name; theirs was a different era and they lived under different threats. But today a lot of trans people feel differently about it.

The way to go, I feel, is to use the term each individual prefers, to ask if one is unsure and to attempt to be graceful when correcting someone who uses a slur without realising and who genuinely has no ill intent. There are so-called 'activists' who will pounce on every single mistake and gleefully denounce the person making it; these tend to be shallow creatures and their actions are very much counterproductive. But there are also genuine victims who have grown very tired of having their humanity denied and we really ought to show some respect for their feelings.

Share this post

Link to post

Share on other sites

Ashley already knows that Tedd has the TFG and that Ellen's creation involved Elliot getting zapped by it. Ashley could also assume that Tedd may have used it on himself and conclude that was why Arthur was using female pronouns.

Ashley is also dating a certain guy who magically transforms into various female forms quite frequently, so it shouldn't be such a huge mental leap for her to assume that Tedd does something similar . . .

14 hours ago, ChronosCat said:

Noted. (...Actually, looking at the usage guides on wiktionary, even replacing "transgendered" with "transgender" in my sentence wouldn't have fully corrected it; it probably should have been "transgender people" (minus the preceding "the" of course)...)

(A bit of a heads up: it's likely I'll make similar mistakes in the future. I'm not very social, and this forum is pretty much the only community where I have a chance to talk about such things; as a result I'm a bit out of touch with the correct terminology. Please do continue to correct me, but try to be gentle. )

The preferred vocabulary for transgender topics is still somewhat in flux--the words that were in use twentyish years ago when I first heard of such things are not the same as the current ones--blame the euphemism treadmill for that.

Share this post

Link to post

Share on other sites

Maybe it isn't from a dragon. It might just be a scale from a bigger fish.

Fishes and Dragons are related in at least two different mythologies. Chinese mythology has dragons starting out as catfish. And Celtic mythology typically depicts dragons as living in lakes.

There's a reason to think "dragon" here that may fit the storyline quite well. Magus/Ellen is obsessed with fighting dragons. But Moperverse Ellen has sort of become a dragon. Maybe Dan is laying groundwork for Magus realizing that the dragons of his universe are also people?