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Topic: Personal Savior? (Read 44873 times)

I asked you several questions in my last reply, ...and out of curiosity, do you have answers for any of those questions? (I don't mean to pressure you to answer, that of course is your decision... but I felt they were honest questions, and would appreciate any answers you might have, or be willing to offer -- Thanks!)

I have more questions below and offer them to you, or anyone else in the discussion, for answers...

Well this is definately one of our major divides. I can't comprend that God is the Spirit of Death and of Life.

I have not claimed GOD as the "spirit of death"...He IS LIFE... but also is the creator of ALL THINGS, one of which is DEATH... He designed what it is, and how it is brought about, and HE alone decides when it occurs in each of us, for our days are NUMBERED by HIM... And DEATH, as well as EVIL, have their place in the KNOWLEDGE of GOOD and EVIL... The fact remains the GOD's WORD is LIFE, but also contained within it is the reality of DEATH...

For the Spirit of death shares its nature with temptation and sin - which God claims to not do. I therefore cannot reconcile that with your beliefs.

I did not say that GOD participates in SIN and TEMPTATION, but the question remains -- Who defined what SIN and TEMPTATION are Paul? For that matter, who determined what DEATH is?How did it get into our scenario? Why was DEATH required to SAVE us?

In my observation of the WORD, ...The FOREKNOWLEDGE of GOD determines length of each life, each beginning and end... for CHRIST is both (alpha AND omega)... He is LIFE as well as its beginning and end... ALL THINGS emerge from Him and all things find their end in Him as well...

As I said bro... It is not on my agenda to change you in any way... I am quite divided from ET believers, TRINITARIAN believers, HELL believers, FREE WILL believers, FALLEN ANGEL believers, ...etc, ...but it does not keep me from praying for them, nor from considering them brothers and fellow CHILDREN of YHVH... So do I consider you as well, brother... As I see it, ...disagreement is not the basis for division... it is the basis for further study...

I just do not see how anyone considers that ANYTHING that exists, is not emergent from GOD, and that He has purpose in the existance of EACH of ALL THINGS... including DEATH.

LIFE is the precious commodity that is to be ETERNALLY enjoyed, for all of CREATION has witnessed and been either directly (physical beings) or indirectly (spirit/heavenly beings) affected BY it's enemy which has appeared within TIME -- DEATH...

The Bible describes darkness as the absense of light. The Hebrew word for light also means order. The Hebrew word for darkness also means chaos.So I think the spirit of death (dark/chaos/sin) does not exist. It's the absense of the spirit of life (light/order/pure)Death is the absense of life.

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For the Spirit of death shares its nature with temptation and sin

Agreed

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- which God claims to not do.

Not agreed."....prepared evil..." and similar verse.I have more thoughts about that but that will be to much off-topic I think. Plus there is another thread on exactly that subject.I don't know if it's Biblically correct but the "Our Father" prayer in Dutch has a line: "...do not lead us into tempation..."

Logged

1 Timothy 2:3-4 ...God our Savior; Who will have all men to be saved...John 12:47 And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world.Romans 4:5 But to the one who does not work, but believes in the one who declares the ungodly righteous ...

till he comes we dont know as we should ... great example is , like Job here ..NIV.

Job 42Job 1 Then Job replied to the LORD : 2 "I know that you can do all things; no plan of yours can be thwarted.

3 You asked, 'Who is this that obscures my counsel without knowledge?' Surely I spoke of things I did not understand, things too wonderful for me to know. 4 "You said, 'Listen now, and I will speak; I will question you, and you shall answer me.'

5 My ears had heard of you but now my eyes have seen you.

6 Therefore I despise myself and repent in dust and ashes."

we , none have a clue , till the Lord God lets us in on His secrets/mysteries and shows Himself /Spirit of Truth

I remember hearing about God when I was real small but it was just common talk , till the Lord did come to me and make it "very personal"

I think many folks take offense /stumble fall over certain expressions that really dont amount to a hill of beans lol..

the way we express our "understanding " does often cause divisons

Matt 11

4Jesus replied, "Go back and report to John what you hear and see:

5The blind receive sight, the lame walk, those who have leprosy

are cured, the deaf hear, the dead are raised, and the good news is preached to the poor.

6Blessed is the man who does not fall away on account of me."

the great falling away is from grace and that grace is given to us individually and personally as we grow in truth and grace

Gal 5:4 Christ is become of no effect unto you, whosoever of you are justified by the law; you are fallen from grace. ekpiptō

1601 greek for fallen

I think we all must be carful how we handle the WORD of Life , judge not or we will find judgment has come very personally upon us

We fill up where we are, along with God's presence, we take the form of our places. We are definite in form and unaffected by our circumstances. We are sons of The Cloud and of The Rock.

"He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; To him that overcometh will I give to eat of the hidden manna, and will give him a white stone, and in the stone a new name written, which no man knoweth saving he that receiveth it." (Revelation 2:17, AV)

"Him that overcometh will I make a pillar in the temple of my God, and he shall go no more out: and I will write upon him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, which is new Jerusalem, which cometh down out of heaven from my God: and I will write upon him my new name." (Revelation 3:12, AV)

We will always be ever increasing in our distinctiveness. There will be an increasing secret of identity for God and His offspring, and an increasing revelation of that identity. What made Moses who he was, or Elijah who he was, or Samuel, or Jesus, or John , or Paul...was the Holy Spirit of God. They are example of how the closer we are to God, the more unique we are and, simultaneously, the more we have in common. Each of these famous men of God were very different from one another. Yet, anybody who comes to them finds much about them with which they can identify.

"For as the body is one, and hath many members, and all the members of that one body, being many, are one body: so also is Christ." (1 Corinthians 12:12, AV)

The, "Many, are one..." is descriptive of the nature of God. We are partaking of the Divine nature. We are Elohim. "I have said you all are Elohim; all of you, children of El-Elyon." (Psalm 82:6, AV) Jesus says, "Is it not written in your law, I said, Ye are gods? If he called them gods, unto whom the word of God came, and the scripture cannot be broken..." (John 10:34-35, AV) God may be thought of as a vast family of like beings born of Him. Being of the same nature, all are in fellowship with one another. This the God Who is Love has purposed and will accomplish. "And we shall reign in all the earth." (Revelation 5:12, AV)

trettep

I asked you several questions in my last reply, ...and out of curiosity, do you have answers for any of those questions? (I don't mean to pressure you to answer, that of course is your decision... but I felt they were honest questions, and would appreciate any answers you might have, or be willing to offer -- Thanks!)

I have more questions below and offer them to you, or anyone else in the discussion, for answers...

Well this is definately one of our major divides. I can't comprend that God is the Spirit of Death and of Life.

I have not claimed GOD as the "spirit of death"...He IS LIFE... but also is the creator of ALL THINGS, one of which is DEATH... He designed what it is, and how it is brought about, and HE alone decides when it occurs in each of us, for our days are NUMBERED by HIM... And DEATH, as well as EVIL, have their place in the KNOWLEDGE of GOOD and EVIL... The fact remains the GOD's WORD is LIFE, but also contained within it is the reality of DEATH...

For the Spirit of death shares its nature with temptation and sin - which God claims to not do. I therefore cannot reconcile that with your beliefs.

I did not say that GOD participates in SIN and TEMPTATION, but the question remains -- Who defined what SIN and TEMPTATION are Paul? For that matter, who determined what DEATH is?How did it get into our scenario? Why was DEATH required to SAVE us?

In my observation of the WORD, ...The FOREKNOWLEDGE of GOD determines length of each life, each beginning and end... for CHRIST is both (alpha AND omega)... He is LIFE as well as its beginning and end... ALL THINGS emerge from Him and all things find their end in Him as well...

As I said bro... It is not on my agenda to change you in any way... I am quite divided from ET believers, TRINITARIAN believers, HELL believers, FREE WILL believers, FALLEN ANGEL believers, ...etc, ...but it does not keep me from praying for them, nor from considering them brothers and fellow CHILDREN of YHVH... So do I consider you as well, brother... As I see it, ...disagreement is not the basis for division... it is the basis for further study...

I just do not see how anyone considers that ANYTHING that exists, is not emergent from GOD, and that He has purpose in the existance of EACH of ALL THINGS... including DEATH.

LIFE is the precious commodity that is to be ETERNALLY enjoyed, for all of CREATION has witnessed and been either directly (physical beings) or indirectly (spirit/heavenly beings) affected BY it's enemy which has appeared within TIME -- DEATH...

...willieH

Hi brother Willie. I didn't mean to avoid your questions. I thought my statement was just getting to the core of our disagreement. But regarding who created Death, God did. But God uses Death for GOOD in bringing about Life. But again, God will be only ALL in ALL once all is subdued. Until then God isn't all in all. Therefore, there must be something that are not in God. God created sin also by creating the law. So you tell me - does that mean that God sins?

I speak to the Lord God when I am in the garden picking green beans or mowing the lawn or in the shower that seems kind of personal to me

but I can see what your saying that so many think that only they have this great link to God and use it as an excuse to EXCLUDE many others who desire to Know God like Jesus telling them about not going into it themselves but hinder them that would go into it /kingdom

Mat 23:13 But woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye shut up the kingdom of heaven against men: for ye neither go in [yourselves], neither suffer ye them that are entering to go in.

trettep

I speak to the Lord God when I am in the garden picking green beans or mowing the lawn or in the shower that seems kind of personal to me

but I can see what your saying that so many think that only they have this great link to God and use it as an excuse to EXCLUDE many others who desire to Know God like Jesus telling them about not going into it themselves but hinder them that would go into it /kingdom

Mat 23:13 But woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye shut up the kingdom of heaven against men: for ye neither go in [yourselves], neither suffer ye them that are entering to go in.

Yes, great example. They made it an eligibility contest. That to me is what many of those faiths that adhere to this "personal savior" theology seem to do as well.

Hi brother Willie. I didn't mean to avoid your questions. I thought my statement was just getting to the core of our disagreement.

I don't look at it that way... it is up to you whether or not you wish to answer my questions... but if no answers are forthcoming (as I choose to believe), you are still on the "jury is still out" program concerning that question...

But again, God will be only ALL in ALL once all is subdued. Until then God isn't all in all.

Before I get further into this, "until then" and "once" are TIME oriented terminology which is NOT APPLICABLE to the ETERNAL, which WAS BEFORE it ...and SHALL, EXCEED it...

I have TWO things in particular, with which I find disagreement...

(1) GOD does NOT CHANGE -- Mal 3:6 -- neither does CHRIST -- Heb 13:8 -- so what they ARE, they ALWAYS ARE... When or AS something "BECOMES" something it was not... CHANGE is found. If GOD must wait upon TIME to elapse in order to "BE" ALL in ALL, then He BECOMES something that He was NOT before TIME was created, which encases a CHANGE in Him. This is LIMITED vision (finite) of the ONE which CHANGES NOT (infinite)...

Also... it proposes that GOD, who IS -- ALREADY ETERNALLY PERFECT, "became" something He was NOT. Which means that He was NOT COMPLETE (PERFECT)... I cannot agree with this thinking, but you are welcome to it if you choose.

(2) "Subdued" has to do with the consumation of TIME and all things WITHIN TIME, ...NOT the ETERNAL state which NEVER CHANGES in either the WORD of GOD or the Father.

Observing TIME from a FINITE viewpoint, all things are NOT subdued within it, but GOD notes TIME COMPLETELY from END to BEGINNING, calling things that ARE NOT as though they WERE...

In other words... The ETERNAL is not dependent upon the doings of TIME... it is just another "bass-ackwards" view of men that think the ETERNAL is subject to TIME... when the complete opposite is true. Again, you are welcome to hold this as your belief bro, ...not me.

Sorry bro, ...GOD is a COMPLETE entity... NOTHING is outside of HIM or HIS KNOWLEDGE.

ALL THINGS were made by Him and FOR HIM, whether they be things in Heaven or in Earth, VISIBLE, INVISIBLE, all powers, principalities, etc -- Col 1:16-17 -- NOTHING escapes the term ALL THINGS, and has "being" outside of this notation... Believe what you will...

God created sin also by creating the law. So you tell me - does that mean that God sins?

NO... Creating the scenario, necessitates its opposite to be simultaneously, ...in order to find definition. Because GOD created EVIL and within that creation, defined what its practice would be called (SIN) and that the practice of it would result in DEATH, only serves to MAGNIFY Purity, and LIFE...

Name ONE "THING" which has NOOPPOSITE brother P...

DEATH and SIN and EVIL were "created" (emerged from God), to MAGNIFY LIFE, LOVE and GOOD... the KNOWLEDGE is rooted in the SAME TREE which is GOD...

GOD is LOVE, and the experience of what is OPPOSITE LOVE must be had in order to KNOW IT, and what it IS... part of that "experience" is to behold via experience, ITS OPPOSITE... and all associated elements of ITS OPPOSITE (such as sin, death, hatred, disease, war, sorrow, etc)

Again, I truly meant this answer in the spirit of love and brotherhood...

Hi brother Willie. I didn't mean to avoid your questions. I thought my statement was just getting to the core of our disagreement.

I don't look at it that way... it is up to you whether or not you wish to answer my questions... but if no answers are forthcoming (as I choose to believe), you are still on the "jury is still out" program concerning that question...

But again, God will be only ALL in ALL once all is subdued. Until then God isn't all in all.

Before I get further into this, "until then" and "once" are TIME oriented terminology which is NOT APPLICABLE to the ETERNAL, which WAS BEFORE it ...and SHALL, EXCEED it...

I have TWO things in particular, with which I find disagreement...

(1) GOD does NOT CHANGE -- Mal 3:6 -- neither does CHRIST -- Heb 13:8 -- so what they ARE, they ALWAYS ARE... When or AS something "BECOMES" something it was not... CHANGE is found. If GOD must wait upon TIME to elapse in order to "BE" ALL in ALL, then He BECOMES something that He was NOT before TIME was created, which encases a CHANGE in Him. This is LIMITED vision (finite) of the ONE which CHANGES NOT (infinite)...

Also... it proposes that GOD, who IS -- ALREADY ETERNALLY PERFECT, "became" something He was NOT. Which means that He was NOT COMPLETE (PERFECT)... I cannot agree with this thinking, but you are welcome to it if you choose.

(2) "Subdued" has to do with the consumation of TIME and all things WITHIN TIME, ...NOT the ETERNAL state which NEVER CHANGES in either the WORD of GOD or the Father.

Observing TIME from a FINITE viewpoint, all things are NOT subdued within it, but GOD notes TIME COMPLETELY from END to BEGINNING, calling things that ARE NOT as though they WERE...

In other words... The ETERNAL is not dependent upon the doings of TIME... it is just another "bass-ackwards" view of men that think the ETERNAL is subject to TIME... when the complete opposite is true. Again, you are welcome to hold this as your belief bro, ...not me.

Sorry bro, ...GOD is a COMPLETE entity... NOTHING is outside of HIM or HIS KNOWLEDGE.

ALL THINGS were made by Him and FOR HIM, whether they be things in Heaven or in Earth, VISIBLE, INVISIBLE, all powers, principalities, etc -- Col 1:16-17 -- NOTHING escapes the term ALL THINGS, and has "being" outside of this notation... Believe what you will...

God created sin also by creating the law. So you tell me - does that mean that God sins?

NO... Creating the scenario, necessitates its opposite to be simultaneously, ...in order to find definition. Because GOD created EVIL and within that creation, defined what its practice would be called (SIN) and that the practice of it would result in DEATH, only serves to MAGNIFY Purity, and LIFE...

Name ONE "THING" which has NOOPPOSITE brother P...

DEATH and SIN and EVIL were "created" (emerged from God), to MAGNIFY LIFE, LOVE and GOOD... the KNOWLEDGE is rooted in the SAME TREE which is GOD...

GOD is LOVE, and the experience of what is OPPOSITE LOVE must be had in order to KNOW IT, and what it IS... part of that "experience" is to behold via experience, ITS OPPOSITE... and all associated elements of ITS OPPOSITE (such as sin, death, hatred, disease, war, sorrow, etc)

Again, I truly meant this answer in the spirit of love and brotherhood...

...willieH

See Willie, this is my problem. You say that God is everything and yet go on to say that God doesn't sin. As for the verse you mentioned concerning God not changing (Mal 3:6) - I believe this is a reference to His Divine nature. It doesn't change to that which is oppose that nature. You are saying that time wouldn't change this and I agree. However, you use that as an argument that God would be "changing" if the subjection takes place at a point in time. That is NOT true in my opinion. I believe the reference to God changing of Mal 3:6 is a direct reference to His Spirit (divine nature) and that it in no way changes whether or not subjection takes place at some point in time. There is no change indicate to the Spirit or nature of God if subjection occurs at any point in time. And Time does exist for God gave us Time and its measurements. I believe that "Eternity" is just another measurement. For example, we have the day, we have the week. A week may contain the days but it is still a measurement of time. The month contains weeks, and years contain months, etc.. until we reach the point that Eternity contains.... Eternity is just the measurement at the top of the Time container. That is how I see it Willie.

Mal 3:6 -- For I am YHVH, ...I CHANGENOT... (no further commentary concerning "what" does "NOT CHANGE"... No notations except by THOSE who propose ADDITION/speculation to what IS NOT spoken/written, in the verse.)

It doesn't change to that which is oppose that nature. You are saying that time wouldn't change this and I agree. However, you use that as an argument that God would be "changing" if the subjection takes place at a point in time. That is NOT true in my opinion.

Paul... examine what you have just said... ETERNITY preceeded TIME, did it not? And you are proposing that in order for GOD to be COMPLETE and ALL in ALL, it required that He create TIME? So much as alluding to necessitating US and our doings, in order to be COMPLETE?

You also propose that IN ETERNITY (which has NO beginning or end)... that He was IN THIS WAY (all IN all), ...INCOMPLETE... (or as some might say IMPERFECT, for the true meaning of PERFECT is COMPLETE without FLAW)

PERFECTION does not require any alterations... yet you propose that GOD needed TIME (and the evil doings of men) in order to be COMPLETE and was therefore, concerning ALL, ...INCOMPLETE...

I believe the reference to God changing of Mal 3:6 is a direct reference to His Spirit (divine nature) and that it in no way changes whether or not subjection takes place at some point in time.

Regardless of what you BELIEVE, which is OUTSIDE what is stated (requiring INSERTION of your BELIEF, in order to be WHAT YOU PROPOSE -- i.e. specifiying "divine nature")... and therefore your BELIEF implies that the WORD of GOD is also INCOMPLETE, for it "left out" the designation "divine nature"...

And is "in need" of your INSERTED designation of "divine nature" in order to be properly understood? :omg:

There is no change indicate to the Spirit or nature of God if subjection occurs at any point in time. And Time does exist for God gave us Time and its measurements. I believe that "Eternity" is just another measurement.

And what do you propose as the "MEASUREMENT" of ETERNITY Paul? To "measure" is to find LIMITATION... for a measure of something, concerns the limits, dimension or content of that which is MEASURED...

[from Merrium-Webster]

Main Entry: 1mea·surePronunciation: \ˈme-zhər, ˈmā-\ Function: noun Etymology: Middle English mesure, from Anglo-French, from Latin mensura, from mensus, past participle of metiri to measure; akin to Old English mǣth measure, Greek metron Date: 13th century 1 a (1): an adequate or due portion (2): a moderate degree ; also : moderation, temperance (3): a fixed or suitable limit : bounds <rich beyond measure> b: the dimensions, capacity, or amount of something ascertained by measuring c: an estimate of what is to be expected (as of a person or situation) d (1): a measured quantity (2): amount, degree2 a: an instrument or utensil for measuring b (1): a standard or unit of measurement — see weight table (2): a system of standard units of measure <metric measure>3: the act or process of measuring4 a (1): melody, tune (2): dance ; especially : a slow and stately dance b: rhythmic structure or movement : cadence : as (1): poetic rhythm measured by temporal quantity or accent ; specifically : meter (2): musical time c (1): a grouping of a specified number of musical beats located between two consecutive vertical lines on a staff (2): a metrical unit : foot5: an exact divisor of a number6: a basis or standard of comparison <wealth is not a measure of happiness>7: a step planned or taken as a means to an end ; specifically : a proposed legislative act— for good measure : in addition to the minimum required : as an extra

IMO (no offense bro), you are wandering WAY off the pathway with this...

(1) you add your belief to what is stated in -- Mal 3:6 -- implying it to be as YOU see it, reading "between the lines" what is NOT THERE...

(2) you propose that GOD needed to create TIME in order to BE something IN ETERNITY that He was not... implying He needed some SELF alteration which TIME availed to Him

(3) now you propose that ETERNITY which has no limitation, is a MEASURED entity! Please! How can the INFINTITE be measured? How can INNUMERABLE be numbered? This is an ILLOGICAL proposal bro...

For example, we have the day, we have the week. A week may contain the days but it is still a measurement of time. The month contains weeks, and years contain months, etc.. until we reach the point that Eternity contains.... Eternity is just the measurement at the top of the Time container. That is how I see it Willie.

Until? What did "until" have to do with the ETERNAL before "until's" were brought forth from it?

Therein lies your problem bro (IMO)... You think TIME which was NOT (for it was created from GOD who resides in ETERNITY) while ETERNITY just, IS... And then propose to MEASURE Eternity with TIME... when it PRECEEDED it and is ENDLESSLY, BEGINNINGLESSLY -- before and after it!

ETERNITY does something like this:

You just said -- "for example we have the day, we have the week... a week may contain days..."

ETERNITY takes your concept and TURNS it INSIDE OUT -- and says a DAY may contain WEEKS!

For ALL GENERATIONS -- Gen 2:4 -- appear in the "DAY" God created them... so all "WEEKS" which are found in TIME are contained in the DAY of GOD and His creation of them...

Gen 2:4 -- THESE [plural] are the GENERATIONS[plural] of the heavens and the earth WHEN THEY[plural] were created, ...IN THE DAY... that YHVH made the earth and the heavens...

What many fail to see is that GOD created the heavens and the earth in 6 DAYS (time) but FINISHED His work in those SIX DAYS of TIME, within HIS DAY which is ETERNITY...

Gen 2:1 -- Thus the heavens and the earth were FINISHED, ...and... ALL the HOST of them... (btw, the word "HOST" is a notation of a "mass of persons awaiting a WAR")

You see Paul (or maybe not), ...the Creation of ALL THINGS was done from ETERNITY and was FINISHED COMPLETELY at the conclusion of the 6th DAY of TIME...

Though the Creation story is yet UNFOLDING in what we observe from a finite vision as: TIME... was COMPLETED in ETERNITY before 1 second of TIME elapsed on earth...

There is a great reason for the 7th Day... and that it is DEVOID of "evening and morning" for those depict beginning and end... as well as it was the only entity called a DAY which was BLESSED and made HOLY... for the 6 days of TIME contained EVIL and SIN... the 7th DAY is the SABBATH, over which CHRIST claimed as His own and LORDSHIP... and HE is the BLESSING of HOLINESS that God showered upon the SABBATH... for in the WORD of GOD, do ALL THINGS find beginning and end...

You see Paul (or maybe not)... the CREATION is yet progressing concerning TIME... until it CONCLUDES (which it shall)... and it shall find that conclusion in the SABBATH which IS CHRIST... for ALL THINGS begin and end in Him (alpha/omega), that HAVE beginnings and endings... which are, ...ALL THINGS within TIME... (John 1:1-3 -- Rev 1:8)

There is much more to this, but I'll leave these thoughts with you for now... TIME is but a drop of water (used to teach the Children the "knowledge") amidst the endless OCEAN of ETERNITY... surrounded on ALL SIDES by that OCEAN which, unlike the "DROP" has no limitation, duration or quantity.

Mal 3:6 -- For I am YHVH, ...I CHANGENOT... (no further commentary concerning "what" does "NOT CHANGE"... No notations except by THOSE who propose ADDITION/speculation to what IS NOT spoken/written, in the verse.)

It doesn't change to that which is oppose that nature. You are saying that time wouldn't change this and I agree. However, you use that as an argument that God would be "changing" if the subjection takes place at a point in time. That is NOT true in my opinion.

Paul... examine what you have just said... ETERNITY preceeded TIME, did it not? And you are proposing that in order for GOD to be COMPLETE and ALL in ALL, it required that He create TIME? So much as alluding to necessitating US and our doings, in order to be COMPLETE?

You also propose that IN ETERNITY (which has NO beginning or end)... that He was IN THIS WAY (all IN all), ...INCOMPLETE... (or as some might say IMPERFECT, for the true meaning of PERFECT is COMPLETE without FLAW)

PERFECTION does not require any alterations... yet you propose that GOD needed TIME (and the evil doings of men) in order to be COMPLETE and was therefore, concerning ALL, ...INCOMPLETE...

I believe the reference to God changing of Mal 3:6 is a direct reference to His Spirit (divine nature) and that it in no way changes whether or not subjection takes place at some point in time.

Regardless of what you BELIEVE, which is OUTSIDE what is stated (requiring INSERTION of your BELIEF, in order to be WHAT YOU PROPOSE -- i.e. specifiying "divine nature")... and therefore your BELIEF implies that the WORD of GOD is also INCOMPLETE, for it "left out" the designation "divine nature"...

And is "in need" of your INSERTED designation of "divine nature" in order to be properly understood? :omg:

There is no change indicate to the Spirit or nature of God if subjection occurs at any point in time. And Time does exist for God gave us Time and its measurements. I believe that "Eternity" is just another measurement.

And what do you propose as the "MEASUREMENT" of ETERNITY Paul? To "measure" is to find LIMITATION... for a measure of something, concerns the limits, dimension or content of that which is MEASURED...

[from Merrium-Webster]

Main Entry: 1mea·surePronunciation: \ˈme-zhər, ˈmā-\ Function: noun Etymology: Middle English mesure, from Anglo-French, from Latin mensura, from mensus, past participle of metiri to measure; akin to Old English mǣth measure, Greek metron Date: 13th century 1 a (1): an adequate or due portion (2): a moderate degree ; also : moderation, temperance (3): a fixed or suitable limit : bounds <rich beyond measure> b: the dimensions, capacity, or amount of something ascertained by measuring c: an estimate of what is to be expected (as of a person or situation) d (1): a measured quantity (2): amount, degree2 a: an instrument or utensil for measuring b (1): a standard or unit of measurement — see weight table (2): a system of standard units of measure <metric measure>3: the act or process of measuring4 a (1): melody, tune (2): dance ; especially : a slow and stately dance b: rhythmic structure or movement : cadence : as (1): poetic rhythm measured by temporal quantity or accent ; specifically : meter (2): musical time c (1): a grouping of a specified number of musical beats located between two consecutive vertical lines on a staff (2): a metrical unit : foot5: an exact divisor of a number6: a basis or standard of comparison <wealth is not a measure of happiness>7: a step planned or taken as a means to an end ; specifically : a proposed legislative act— for good measure : in addition to the minimum required : as an extra

IMO (no offense bro), you are wandering WAY off the pathway with this...

(1) you add your belief to what is stated in -- Mal 3:6 -- implying it to be as YOU see it, reading "between the lines" what is NOT THERE...

(2) you propose that GOD needed to create TIME in order to BE something IN ETERNITY that He was not... implying He needed some SELF alteration which TIME availed to Him

(3) now you propose that ETERNITY which has no limitation, is a MEASURED entity! Please! How can the INFINTITE be measured? How can INNUMERABLE be numbered? This is an ILLOGICAL proposal bro...

For example, we have the day, we have the week. A week may contain the days but it is still a measurement of time. The month contains weeks, and years contain months, etc.. until we reach the point that Eternity contains.... Eternity is just the measurement at the top of the Time container. That is how I see it Willie.

Until? What did "until" have to do with the ETERNAL before "until's" were brought forth from it?

Therein lies your problem bro (IMO)... You think TIME which was NOT (for it was created from GOD who resides in ETERNITY) while ETERNITY just, IS... And then propose to MEASURE Eternity with TIME... when it PRECEEDED it and is ENDLESSLY, BEGINNINGLESSLY -- before and after it!

ETERNITY does something like this:

You just said -- "for example we have the day, we have the week... a week may contain days..."

ETERNITY takes your concept and TURNS it INSIDE OUT -- and says a DAY may contain WEEKS!

For ALL GENERATIONS -- Gen 2:4 -- appear in the "DAY" God created them... so all "WEEKS" which are found in TIME are contained in the DAY of GOD and His creation of them...

Gen 2:4 -- THESE [plural] are the GENERATIONS[plural] of the heavens and the earth WHEN THEY[plural] were created, ...IN THE DAY... that YHVH made the earth and the heavens...

What many fail to see is that GOD created the heavens and the earth in 6 DAYS (time) but FINISHED His work in those SIX DAYS of TIME, within HIS DAY which is ETERNITY...

Gen 2:1 -- Thus the heavens and the earth were FINISHED, ...and... ALL the HOST of them... (btw, the word "HOST" is a notation of a "mass of persons awaiting a WAR")

You see Paul (or maybe not), ...the Creation of ALL THINGS was done from ETERNITY and was FINISHED COMPLETELY at the conclusion of the 6th DAY of TIME...

Though the Creation story is yet UNFOLDING in what we observe from a finite vision as: TIME... was COMPLETED in ETERNITY before 1 second of TIME elapsed on earth...

There is a great reason for the 7th Day... and that it is DEVOID of "evening and morning" for those depict beginning and end... as well as it was the only entity called a DAY which was BLESSED and made HOLY... for the 6 days of TIME contained EVIL and SIN... the 7th DAY is the SABBATH, over which CHRIST claimed as His own and LORDSHIP... and HE is the BLESSING of HOLINESS that God showered upon the SABBATH... for in the WORD of GOD, do ALL THINGS find beginning and end...

You see Paul (or maybe not)... the CREATION is yet progressing concerning TIME... until it CONCLUDES (which it shall)... and it shall find that conclusion in the SABBATH which IS CHRIST... for ALL THINGS begin and end in Him (alpha/omega), that HAVE beginnings and endings... which are, ...ALL THINGS within TIME... (John 1:1-3 -- Rev 1:8)

There is much more to this, but I'll leave these thoughts with you for now... TIME is but a drop of water (used to teach the Children the "knowledge") amidst the endless OCEAN of ETERNITY... surrounded on ALL SIDES by that OCEAN which, unlike the "DROP" has no limitation, duration or quantity.

...willieH

Willie, Mal 3:6 says "..I change not.." - that is a reference to His "person" which is a reference to His Spirit. Regarding Eternity, Eternity is the Time container. Eternity is the span of Time.

Willie, Mal 3:6 says "..I change not.." - that is a reference to His "person" which is a reference to His Spirit.

Well that can be assumed... no detail is mentioned concerning "I"... so I can neither speculate either way... Because GOD is SPIRIT, I would tend to think it to describe WHATEVER He -- IS -- irregardless of any finite speculations of that self existent position He occupies and what it entails in detail... however:

Without ADDING any speculative detail which is NOT WRITTEN, ..YHVHis what ever He ...IS... in saying "I AM"... and does NOTCHANGE.

Again, I remind you that your previous "ADDITION" -- "Divine nature" is NOT in the text, and neither is this newest proposals -- "His person"or"His SPIRIT"... which are both absent in the TEXT as well...

I maintain, that whatever detail completely notes (which "detail" is unavailable to us) as to WHATYHVH ...IS... as a DIVINE and ETERNAL entity... is unmentioned in Mal 3:6

The only thing the text reveals is that whatever that "detail" IS, ...it DOES NOT CHANGE... For He says:

I amYHVH, I CHANGE, ...NOT. Anything concerning YHVH according to this statement, simply just does NOT CHANGE... for He simply says ..."I AM"... stating afterward, that what "HE IS" ...does NOT CHANGE...

It is simple statement, and any "SELF speculations" only COMPLICATES the issue... and furthermore, violates the Biblical instruction to abstain from ADDING or SUBTRACTING to the WORD.

Regarding Eternity, Eternity is the Time container. Eternity is the span of Time.

ETERNITY is indeed a "TIME container" for ALLTIME since it was CREATED is contained within the ETERNAL, ...at "either" of its boundaries of: end and beginning...

Isaiah 46:10 -- Declaring the END from the BEGINNING, and from ancient times, the things that are not yet done [in time], saying My counsel shall stand and I will do all My pleasure...

BEGINNING and END are boundaries and LIMITATIONS, Paul... GOD, preceeding both, made the DECLARATION from a different perspective (ETERNITY) of that which would occur... "beginning" at the "end"...

Also, that which would occur during this DECLARATION, would END and BEGIN... NOT continue beyond either boundary.

There is no Scripture that says "ETERNITY is a "SPAN of TIME"... (of which I am aware, please enlighten me of it if you are able, bro)...

I hereby challenge you to offer this statement MADE from Scripture... If you cannot produce this statement in Scripture, then "eternity is a span of time" are YOUR WORDS exclusively and are not proveable by the Scriptures... nor do they find a home within them...

ETERNITY preceed time, and TIME is a stated created entity... for the Creation account notes 1st day, 2nd day etc... ALL TIME in encased in DAYS for it is the primary measure OF IT...

Again, unless you can produce a Scripture which backs your above statement, you are not believing Scripture concerning TIME, ...rather you are believe your own speculations...

Scripture speaks of "...increasing with the increase of God." His not changing refers to the fact that He doesn't alter in His character attributes.

"Scripture speaks" WHERE reFormer? Why did you not state the location of your proposal here?

I found on one site reference to Col 2:19 [ASV] -- is that your quoted reference reFORMer? Why not specify? Clarity helps us all as we share... just noting "scripture speaks" without noting where it does so, is short of helpful...

If the ASV version of Col 2:19 is your reference, ...it does not suggest any CHANGE in GOD...

It is speaking of the BODY knit and nourished together, INCREASES with the INCREASE [growth] of GOD... It doesn't suggest GOD is changing or GROWING, rather that GOD feeding HIS BODY (men) are changing and GROWING... because of its harmony and the investment of itself in the WORD...

It is hard to address something which is shaded from notation... so enlighten us as to the location of the verse you allude to... (if that verse is not your reference)

"AS IS", ...this statement certainly does not prove any "CHANGING" taking place in GOD whatsoever... the "increase of GOD" is that which is GIVEN from Him to others... It does not propose an alteration OF HIMSELF in any way... or, of who or what HE IS!

If this IS your verse, and it is taken literally... then GOD is INCREASING... which means He was in a state WHICH was "not enough" and therefore in need of ALTERATION... or is GROWING in some way... that IS NOT the description of something in the state of PERFECTION or COMPLETION! It is stating something that is LESS and needs to be MORE...

As it appears to me (without the actual verse to view), what you "quote" above does not note GOD "CHANGING" at all! It mentions that we INCREASE with the INCREASE recieved of Him... and His WORD, which means WE CHANGE, not Him... Which more aligns with LOGIC and actuality...

PAUL (trettep):

Btw... it doesn't surprise me that you agree with this, brother Paul...

I'll be waiting on reFormers "revelation", and go from there... Meanwhile, my challenges to YOU remain...

Please note the Scripture which says: "ETERNITY is a SPAN of TIME"... thanks...

trettep

Willie, Mal 3:6 says "..I change not.." - that is a reference to His "person" which is a reference to His Spirit.

Well that can be assumed... no detail is mentioned concerning "I"... so I can neither speculate either way... Because GOD is SPIRIT, I would tend to think it to describe WHATEVER He -- IS -- irregardless of any finite speculations of that self existent position He occupies and what it entails in detail... however:

Without ADDING any speculative detail which is NOT WRITTEN, ..YHVHis what ever He ...IS... in saying "I AM"... and does NOTCHANGE.

Again, I remind you that your previous "ADDITION" -- "Divine nature" is NOT in the text, and neither is this newest proposals -- "His person"or"His SPIRIT"... which are both absent in the TEXT as well...

I maintain, that whatever detail completely notes (which "detail" is unavailable to us) as to WHATYHVH ...IS... as a DIVINE and ETERNAL entity... is unmentioned in Mal 3:6

The only thing the text reveals is that whatever that "detail" IS, ...it DOES NOT CHANGE... For He says:

I amYHVH, I CHANGE, ...NOT. Anything concerning YHVH according to this statement, simply just does NOT CHANGE... for He simply says ..."I AM"... stating afterward, that what "HE IS" ...does NOT CHANGE...

It is simple statement, and any "SELF speculations" only COMPLICATES the issue... and furthermore, violates the Biblical instruction to abstain from ADDING or SUBTRACTING to the WORD.

Regarding Eternity, Eternity is the Time container. Eternity is the span of Time.

ETERNITY is indeed a "TIME container" for ALLTIME since it was CREATED is contained within the ETERNAL, ...at "either" of its boundaries of: end and beginning...

Isaiah 46:10 -- Declaring the END from the BEGINNING, and from ancient times, the things that are not yet done [in time], saying My counsel shall stand and I will do all My pleasure...

BEGINNING and END are boundaries and LIMITATIONS, Paul... GOD, preceeding both, made the DECLARATION from a different perspective (ETERNITY) of that which would occur... "beginning" at the "end"...

Also, that which would occur during this DECLARATION, would END and BEGIN... NOT continue beyond either boundary.

There is no Scripture that says "ETERNITY is a "SPAN of TIME"... (of which I am aware, please enlighten me of it if you are able, bro)...

I hereby challenge you to offer this statement MADE from Scripture... If you cannot produce this statement in Scripture, then "eternity is a span of time" are YOUR WORDS exclusively and are not proveable by the Scriptures... nor do they find a home within them...

ETERNITY preceed time, and TIME is a stated created entity... for the Creation account notes 1st day, 2nd day etc... ALL TIME in encased in DAYS for it is the primary measure OF IT...

Again, unless you can produce a Scripture which backs your above statement, you are not believing Scripture concerning TIME, ...rather you are believe your own speculations...

...willieH

Willie, "I" is a reference to the person. It is YOU that are reading more into that. "I" would be a nature. If it was me speaking then "I" would be a reference to my spirit which is a carnal nature. Since this is God speaking the nature is "DIVINE". It doesn't have to say specifically "divine nature" or "spirit" that is implied by "I". It is the meaning of "I" when the "I" is a referring to God. It isn't speculation.

Willie, if there is no time there cannot be change, for "change" would require time. For changes would be measured by some event(s) over time. So if God thought that Time was not applicable to God then He wouldn't adddress Change but rather Time itself. But since God addresses Change this is confirmation that Time is in the container of Eternity and that Time itself is an attribute of God.

Paul you have interesting thoughts about time. I have been considering time lately. I used to think in "timeless" fashion, but I used to think about it (time) as being a physical construct. However, I have begun to see that "time" is simply a measure, as you say. So, perhaps timelessness isn't the thing, but different dimensions of time (ie different ways of experiencing events that happen). I have been wondering if time is simply an ascertaining of that which happened, is happening, or will be happening, where in reality, EVERYTHING is always "now." and that the past is the remembrance of events, and that the future is the anticipation of events. Just some wonderings.

I saw this definition:

time1) the indefinite progress of existence AND events in the past, present and future REGARDED as a whole2) time, or an amount of time reckoned by a conventional standard

There is alot of food for thought there. It seems to me that time is really a regard, or a reckoning of events past present and future. The concept of timelessness is something I don't see yet in the scripture, but not that I am not open to seeing it if it is there. One thing that is notable to me is that while Jehovah does not change, Theos ("God") can be added to. I do not see "theos" and "Jehovah" as identical, rather that Jehovah is the "theos" and all other "theos" are false, yet Christ did not consider it robbery to be considered a "theos." Is that what you meant in the distinguishing of "I?"

What's interesting about that is in that both Elohim (the plural) and Jehovah are mentioned in Malachi but Jehovah is the one mentioned as not changing. I'm looking into whether or not "Elohim" (the "we") can change.

trettep

Paul you have interesting thoughts about time. I have been considering time lately. I used to think in "timeless" fashion, but I used to think about it (time) as being a physical construct. However, I have begun to see that "time" is simply a measure, as you say. So, perhaps timelessness isn't the thing, but different dimensions of time (ie different ways of experiencing events that happen). I have been wondering if time is simply an ascertaining of that which happened, is happening, or will be happening, where in reality, EVERYTHING is always "now." and that the past is the remembrance of events, and that the future is the anticipation of events. Just some wonderings.

I saw this definition:

time1) the indefinite progress of existence AND events in the past, present and future REGARDED as a whole2) time, or an amount of time reckoned by a conventional standard

There is alot of food for thought there. It seems to me that time is really a regard, or a reckoning of events past present and future. The concept of timelessness is something I don't see yet in the scripture, but not that I am not open to seeing it if it is there. One thing that is notable to me is that while Jehovah does not change, Theos ("God") can be added to. I do not see "theos" and "Jehovah" as identical, rather that Jehovah is the "theos" and all other "theos" are false, yet Christ did not consider it robbery to be considered a "theos." Is that what you meant in the distinguishing of "I?"

What's interesting about that is in that both Elohim (the plural) and Jehovah are mentioned in Malachi but Jehovah is the one mentioned as not changing. I'm looking into whether or not "Elohim" (the "we") can change.

The "I" is really a reference to His person. The best way I can explain this is that a Word is "being". What I mean it it contains the personhood of God. If I speak from my mouth about those things that I AM then I am PROVIDING my being by means of my words. In other words you have the capacity with a likeness of me to take the words that I speak and BECOME me from the personality perspective. For example, if you (Seth) told someone else all about who YOU actually are from a personality standpoint then someone else could simply take your words and CONFORM to who YOU are. But if you have the copyright on that personality then even though someone else copies who YOU actually are by believing in your words and copying your personality they will still be YOU even though someone else is the one performing your personality. This is EXACTLY how I believe God is giving us His Spirit (Holy Spirit = The "Person" of God). To me this is the MILK that is needed to understand an unlock so many mysteries in the scriptures. Recall that Jesus said His Words ARE Spirit. That is indeed what is being communicated. It is the Holy Communication whereby we receive the Holy Spirit.

Read what I wrote there again and hopefully a lightbulb goes off and you understand not only what the Holy Spirit is but how it is given and how it is received.

Paul, just curious as to to your opinion as to why the Bible refers to "elohim" and "Jehovah."

Well, I believe that the Holy Spirit in our mouths speaks of "HE" that is in us.

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For example, if you (Seth) told someone else all about who YOU actually are from a personality standpoint then someone else could simply take your words and CONFORM to who YOU are.

They could only copy what they see, however. It would be external, right? They could only be made like me, if all that is in me was in them. They could not copy me simply by understanding my words, and doing their best to act like me. In order to encompass ALL that I am, I would have to be in them.

trettep

Paul, just curious as to to your opinion as to why the Bible refers to "elohim" and "Jehovah."

Well, I believe that the Holy Spirit in our mouths speaks of "HE" that is in us.

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For example, if you (Seth) told someone else all about who YOU actually are from a personality standpoint then someone else could simply take your words and CONFORM to who YOU are.

They could only copy what they see, however. It would be external, right? They could only be made like me, if all that is in me was in them. They could not copy me simply by understanding my words, and doing their best to act like me. In order to encompass ALL that I am, I would have to be in them.

Regarding, the Spirit, if someone knew your spirit (in other words if you communicated to them of your personality) and someone copied your personality they would be inside them also if it was gueniene belief. If someone truely wants to be you they would copy your personality exactly. That is what Jesus want us to do. He wants us to have His mind to copy Him in all ways because He knows by doing so that we are putting on the Holy Spirit. Of course if we actually do this then what happens to our very own personality? - it is destroyed. Because we are then no longer exhibiting ourselves but the person whos personality we would be obtaining. This is exactly how God is destroying US (our "old man"). That the new man (Christ - whos spirit we are to put on) would now be the person in us.

Is this making any sense. I can use all the feedback I can get to express this better.

Paul, the definitions provided reveal what I was saying and actually what you were saying: Elohim can be added to - depending on who Jehovah declares to be Elohim or Theos.

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Regarding, the Spirit, if someone knew your spirit (in other words if you communicated to them of your personality) and someone copied your personality they would be inside them also if it was gueniene belief.

Paul, what I am saying is that nobody can know my spirit simply by me communicating to them, unless I was within them. A spirit is MORE than how someone ACTS, but who they are in THOUGHT, FEELING AND ACTION. Nobody can know my thoughts unless I were in them and they were in me.

They could genuinely, sincerely have faith that they were me, but without me being in them they could NEVER understand who I really am. That is why God needed to be in them so that they could have his mind. Even the Pharisees ACTED righteous, but Christ compared them to whitewashed tombs. God needed to be WITHIN them to cleanse them, and God being within them goes WAY beyond them being able to ascertain words ABOUT God without him making a temple out of their bodies and being IN them.

Remember what Paul said: work out your own salvation with fear and trembling, for IT IS GOD IN YOU both to will and to do of his good pleasure.

If God is not IN us, then it really is just playacting and not really him at all, but us having our own righteousness. I don't just attribute good works to God as in him having a copyright. I attribute them to him as in Him actually DOING them through his believers. Did supernatural healing come about simply by copying God, or is he the one DOING it? I think the latter. The former is impossible.

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If someone truely wants to be you they would copy your personality exactly.

But, nobody can BE someone simply by ACTING like them.

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That is what Jesus want us to do. He wants us to have His mind to copy Him in all ways because He knows by doing so that we are putting on the Holy Spirit.

Right! He wants us to have his MIND. THEN we can act like him. Nobody can BE me without having my mind. They could not simply take my description of my personality and do their best to copy my behavior. They would have to have my MIND.

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Of course if we actually do this then what happens to our very own personality? - it is destroyed.

I don't take the old man being destroyed to be the removal of our sentience, and I don't think the NT writers did either. They always talked in the "I" sense and ADDED that God was controlling them. The old man was our old way of being and thinking, and feeling.

I think you are communicating your beliefs well, just that I don't agree with how you see it. It doesn't mean one is blind and the other is not, just that we don't see eye to eye on that particular issue.