not in the movies. but she featured in one of the jedi quest books i think. read it ages ago. she sacrificed herself to save anakin...
all the padawans knew her as she was 300-400 years old. (young thing)
she used to turn a blind eye to their pranks and stick sweets in their robes when they got them back from cleaning.

But Vandar wasn't really someone you can judge since you really don't see anything of a personality. His personality is a little more evident in the comics, but there he only suceeds in ticking me off when he couldn't find it in himself to believe that the Masters murdered their Padawans and not Zayne. He wouldn't even acknowledge the possibility for months! And he also told Zayne that it may all be his fault if he turned to the darkside and somehow doesn't remember it. Wow. Thanks for that, Master.

I really wish Vash had her role and dialouge back. She seemed a little more open-minded than some of the other masters in cut-content. In fact, looking at it, I'm suprised she didn't join Revan and Malak! Maybe she felt that the opinion of the rest of the Council overrode hers?

I really wish Vash had her role and dialouge back. She seemed a little more open-minded than some of the other masters in cut-content. In fact, looking at it, I'm suprised she didn't join Revan and Malak! Maybe she felt that the opinion of the rest of the Council overrode hers?

Maybe she decided she needed to hold things together back home--try to keep the Council from exiling all the Jedi who left right off the bat.

Maybe she decided she needed to hold things together back home--try to keep the Council from exiling all the Jedi who left right off the bat.

I'm actually not sure what you mean. Can you clarify for me?

Quote:

Originally Posted by TKA-001

Is there any particular reason (such as evidence) for him to?

Actually, there was. First of all, the only evidence against Zayne was the accusations of the Masters, who all are very eager to hunt him down. There was little to no evidence that Zayne was powerful enough to kill the Padawans, he didn't seem to have a record of previous signs of an unstable mind, and he contacted Vandar himself to say that he was innocent. Why would he contact the Jedi if he had fallen, did not intend to return, and was taking the risk of being tracked?

Don't get me wrong though. The main reason I was a bit disappointed in Vandar wasn't the fact that he didn't believe Zayne so much as the reason he cited: "How can I even contemplate such a thing? Your Master Lucien is the scion of an important family—both in the Republic and in the Jedi Order." ...Is that the best reason he can come up with for not considering another possibility? It just seems... lacking. Oh, and Vrook, strangely enough, seemed rather neutral toward's Zayne's case. He even called out the Taris Masters on failing to protect their Padawans and how the Masters themselves didn't seem entirely trustworthy! A bit of a shock given that he usually is against the main character...

I meant that Vash was probably staying with the Council to keep them from saying, "Okay, all the Jedi that have followed Revan to fight the Mandalorians are exiled! Period!" before the stupid war was done and Revan had turned to the Dark Side.

So what? They're just Padawans. If he gets the drop on them, it wouldn't be that difficult.

I would agree with you except for the fact that the Padawans were killed early because they got suspicious at the idea that Zayne was to knighted with them that day. The Masters were unable to explain themselves, and then started the slaughter early enough for Zayne to come in and witness the direct aftermath. It makes the point that Zayne wasn't very good (and everyone, including Zayne, pretty much agreed). Apparently, Zayne and his Master did not seem to expect for him to become a full Jedi.

In fact, most of the times he escaped the Masters was due more to his friend's interferance and dumb luck (or the will of the Force ) than to any skill on his part. This is also acknowledged in the comics, though he does start to improve after a while.

Quote:

Originally Posted by TKA-001

Is there any reason to disbelieve them? Wouldn't them being eager to hunt him down be understandable if he was responsible?

I was under the impression that the Council (and most Masters) generally refrained from sending a Jedi on a mission that they had any feelings on the matter that might make them bias. In the later years anyway, Obi-Wan is nervous about going on a mission with Anakin to face a pirate slaver, who stole some of Anakin's friends and their family from Tatooine while he lived there. The Council eventually let him go anyway, but told Obi-Wan to keep an eye on him.

If the Masters are asking to go after the one that may have killed their Padawans, isn't that at least a sign of feelings that may lean towards (if Zayne was guilty) at least revenge? It just seems to take a long time before Vandar really seems to have any doubts at all about the case.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Endorenna

I meant that Vash was probably staying with the Council to keep them from saying, "Okay, all the Jedi that have followed Revan to fight the Mandalorians are exiled! Period!" before the stupid war was done and Revan had turned to the Dark Side.

This made me start thinking... when exactly did the Exile become 'the exile'? The lines of dialouge between the Masters refer to the problem of Revan and "being vulnerable on two fronts", yet in K1, Revan and Malak's return as Sith Lords is dsecribed as somewhat of a suprise. So was this when the Jedi Civil War began? Than why was there a year between the Mandalorian War and the JCW? Where was the Exile during that time if this is the case? Help.

1. I think Kavar is the best. He's cool, handsome if compared to zez-kai ell and vrook. He also has a blue shoto and blue lightsaber when I fight him in KOTOR 2. And I think he's the strongest in Jedi High Council.
2. "Dorak because never did anything to stop you and he is interesting". I agree with greggomonkey in this one.
3. Vash, although she doesn't have a very orthodox view in Jedi code, she foolishly falls into Sion's trap. All of you know what happens when someone is putted on a match with Darth Sion. Sion 10/10. Poor Vash.
4. Zez-Kai Ell, only because he admit his mistake and has double-bladed purple lightsaber. He also gives some fight in KOTOR 2.
5. Zhar : "Zhar: "They were foolish to ignore the Council." That signifies that he believes he and the Council are perfect. He's nowhere near Vrook or Atris, but that one quote makes all the difference between a neutral member and a hopeless one". I agree with Darth_Yuthura in this one.
6. Vandar: "Nice enough and friendly, but was on the side of arrogance. I couldn't tell enough of him to make a judgment, so he's neutral". Again I agree with Darth_Yuthura in this one. But I think neutral is a coward and foolish way, so I put Vandar in number 6
7. Atris : Stupid woman who thinks can defeat nihilus and sion (how can she do that?). I don't put her the last one because he's quite attractive for me
8. Vrook : I think he is the most suck from all of them. I hate his arrogant but lame and foolish style of speaking. No offense for his voice talent . He always hates the Exile's way and I think he's the worst dueler in jedi high council ( judging from KOTOR 2, I kill him with OHKO, very pathetic).

The main point is, Jedi High Council in Mandalorian War and Jedi Civil War is lame, pathetic, fool, stupid, because they don't act like Revan, Jedi Exile, and Revan's followers do. They don't protect the Republic when the Republic need them. That's why I hate Jedi 's way of life in Mandalorian War and Jedi Civil War. They are weak Jedi who don't know how to protect civilization. They more like sage in Avatar the Legend of Aang than Jedi. They don't want to attach their life in war and protecting civilization. Revan is better than them. Jedi Exile is better than them. Even Anakin (who turns to a crazy evil force-wielding cyborg) and Sidious wants peace and order in the galaxy, although with and iron grip, is better than them. It is no matter, the main point is to maintain order in the galaxy. And none of the Jedi High Council in Mandalorian War and Jedi Civil War is brave enough to do that. Hail Revan! Hail Vader! Hail Sidious! Everybody could say amen to that.

He's cool, handsome if compared to zez-kai ell and vrook.He also has a blue shoto and blue lightsaber when I fight him in KOTOR 2. And I think he's the strongest in Jedi High Council.

(shrug) I never found him handsome, and his voice wasn't great either, but the shoto and regular lightsaber style is awesome. My problem with Kavar is how he seems to be on your side and an ally but betrays you immediately. Who needs enemies with friends like these? I don't hate him or anything, but its hard to call someone like that your favorite if you think about it that way.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ultimate Vader

Vash, although she doesn't have a very orthodox view in Jedi code, she foolishly falls into Sion's trap.

True, but no one knew Sion or Nihilus' powers (or even existance). All they knew was that there was a new, powerful Sith threat. How can you blame Vash for getting caught? Or were you expecting her to guess that there would be legions of assasins hunting through the force, and a walking corpse. With a lightsaber.

Also, Vash was not originally supposed to be dead like that when you find her. The creators had to cut M4-78 and much of Korriban, so they ended up Stuffing Her in the Fridge. Stupid time restraints...

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ultimate Vader

Zhar : "Zhar: "They were foolish to ignore the Council." That signifies that he believes he and the Council are perfect. He's nowhere near Vrook or Atris, but that one quote makes all the difference between a neutral member and a hopeless one". I agree with Darth_Yuthura in this one.

Hmmm.... I don't think he thought the Council was perfect (that's Atris's bit); I think he was just a conventional Jedi Master saying the more respectable version of: "I told 'ya so, I told 'ya so!" And, from the Jedi's point of view, it was foolish. All of the Revanchists either died, turned to the dark-side, were forcibly turned to the dark-side, or were exiled. Incidentaly, it didn't seem like Vrook thought the Council was perfect either. He just wanted the Jedi to listen to it, so some measure of order could be maintained. At least, my interpretation (especially in the comics).

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ultimate Vader

I don't put her the last one because he's quite attractive for me

Oh no! Echani-lover!

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ultimate Vader

The main point is, Jedi High Council in Mandalorian War and Jedi Civil War is lame, pathetic, fool, stupid, because they don't act like Revan, Jedi Exile, and Revan's followers do

Wow, I called out a player-bias before TKA-001? This is wierd. Anyway, just because they had a different opinion from the Revanchists didn't make them stupid and lame (they did make a foolish decision, but that doesn't make them fools). Consider the circumstances of the last war, the issue with Zayne and the Jedi Covenant stirring up trouble, and Master Vandar apparently having a vision that going to war would cause great destruction to the Republic, and they don't seem like complete morons, but rather misguided.

Revan brutally crippled the Mandalorian way of life, manipulated the Exile and Bao-Dur into commiting mass genocide, became a Dark Lord of the Sith, slaughtered millions, reactivated the Star Forge, set up the assasins who would hunt down most of the Jedi of the Civil War and torture them, send his own troops (if force-sensitive) to be broken, and was planning to take over the Republic, establish an Empire, and fight off the True Sith, likely keeping his power at that point due to the nature of the dark-side! Oh, and Malak's jaw (think about how and why you would cut someone's jaw off and keep them alive). Sidious manipulated everyone to misery, madness, and/or death (some combination of the three), authorized and encouraged the use of genocide for show, used racism and sexism to divide the galaxy further, and was a selfish bastard who loved putting up giant statues of himself. He also kept concubines. And you want us to hail them.

HOW THE HELL DO YOU EXPECT US TO BELIEVE THAT THESE PEOPLE ARE BETTER THAN THE COUNCIL!?! THE COUNCIL ISN'T EVIL!

You do realize that saying "hail Revan" is the Star Wars equivalent of saying "hail Hitler", "hail Stalin", et cetera since Revan is basically the Star Wars equivalent of any of them, right? Need I go on?

"There is something going on in time and space, and beyond time and space, which, whether we like it or not, spells duty." -Winston Churchill

"For of all sad words of tongue or pen, The saddest are these: 'It might have been!'" -John Whittier

Apparently the reason Mara Jade, Shira Brie, and some of the other female Hands were able to slip in and out of the Imperial Palace without much notice despite the sexism prevelant... because they were assumed to be more concubines for the higher-ups... (shudder). I cannot, nor will I ever, be able to unlearn that. Ugh.

Quote:

*Rolls eyes* Did you people leave your sense of sarcasm on the dresser?

Please be more obvious about it next time for those of us less intelliegent than you, so we do not have to rant for nothing .

ive never heard palpy had concubines...
but it seems completely plausible to me.
of course he'd have to pay them hugely... cause theres no way in all of existence that anyone's going get with old pruney 'because he's cute'...
(excpept maybe a monkey lizard)
the punk must be mind-tricking them. the pig.

Master zhar
He did think the council was right so that puts him in the arrogont part of the council

Let me reiterate: "just because they had a different opinion from the Revanchists didn't make them stupid and lame (they did make a foolish decision, but that doesn't make them fools). Consider the circumstances of the last war, the issue with Zayne and the Jedi Covenant stirring up trouble, and Master Vandar apparently having a vision that going to war would cause great destruction to the Republic, and they don't seem like complete morons, but rather misguided."

From the Council's point of view, fighting in the Mandalorian Wars resulting in all Jedi involved to die (ex: Dxun and Malachor V), become evil (Revan's Sith Empire), or loose faith in everything and drop off the face of the galaxy (the Jedi Exile). Because none of the Revanchists ever returned to the Jedi for anything more than a trial and the Jedi Order had apparently become so distant from the ordinary citizens of the Republic, they didn't have all the pieces of the story to conclude that it was a bad decision.

In any case, to publically declare their decision a bad one would be to give credit to the Revanchists, who are now the enemy. In a war, you will almost never see a side give credit to the enemy, sometimes not even decades after the battles, especially because of the possible impact on morale and faith in the Coucil's leadership.

Though... looking back... I don't see any good solution to that scenario at all.

One good solution: The Council makes a proper decision based on the situation that they knew of... not some vision that may or may not have had any validity. They should have gotten the Jedi involved with the Mandalorian War, thereby ensuring that Revan never had a standard under which to gather power or support. It was because the Council refused to act that Revan received support.

Even if they believed it was wrong, they should have known that it didn't really matter what the Council thought if no one believed them. They were misguided because they weren't willing to take the responsibilities of leadership. Vrook and Atris seemed to enjoy having the power and shifting responsibility to others especially.

One good solution: The Council makes a proper decision based on the situation that they knew of... not some vision that may or may not have had any validity. They should have gotten the Jedi involved with the Mandalorian War, thereby ensuring that Revan never had a standard under which to gather power or support.

It's hardly their fault that Revan disobeyed them, and then became a Sith Lord. They didn't want to repeat the mistakes of the past, and, importantly, the Order was still trying to rebuild after the last time a Jedi Knight led a group of his peers to the Dark Side.

One thing this discussion brings to mind is the fact that the Jedi Civil War was, by definition, not a Jedi civil war at all. My dictionary defines a civil war as "a war between political factions or regions within the same country". I've also heard it described as a war between two or more factions for control of a government. The Jedi Civil War was not a war between two factions within the same "country" (by that definition, anyway), or for control of a "government" (which in this context would refer to the Jedi Order itself). The closest Revan's movement came to a "civil war" was when he and his renegades left to assist the Republic military. Even then, however, there was no war for control of the Order. It was simply Revan and his followers leaving.

One might say that the Jedi Crusaders (I refuse to call them "the Revanchists") caused a schism in the Jedi Order, but as far as I know it has yet to be verified as to approximately how many Jedi followed Revan. It can be considered safe to say that few of Revan's followers were Jedi Knights, and that even fewer were Masters (we have only one example of each so far. Aside from that, Jedi apprentices are by default younger than the more experienced Jedi and would be easily swayed). As for the Crusaders' actual numbers, it could be anything from as few as several hundred or as many as one or two thousand, depending on the number of low-ranking Jedi the Order had, as well as its size in general.

The Jedi Civil War itself did not start until years later, of course, and the conflict itself was more about the Republic and the Sith Empire than the Jedi. I know that several people in KOTOR II try to pass off the name of the conflict to civilians viewing the Jedi and Sith as largely the same, but I don't buy any of that, because anyone who can't see the difference between Revan's Crusaders/Sith and the actual Jedi Order has to be either brain-dead or ridiculously ignorant.

"There is something going on in time and space, and beyond time and space, which, whether we like it or not, spells duty." -Winston Churchill

"For of all sad words of tongue or pen, The saddest are these: 'It might have been!'" -John Whittier

I know that several people in KOTOR II try to pass off the name of the conflict to civilians viewing the Jedi and Sith as largely the same, but I don't buy any of that, because anyone who can't see the difference between Revan's Crusaders/Sith and the actual Jedi Order has to be either brain-dead or ridiculously ignorant.

I have to disagree with you there. The ones who dubbed the war "the Jedi Civil War" was the rest of the galaxy. The game was trying to make the point that, from an outside point of view, the Jedi and the Sith didn't seem all that different. And, think about it; how could you tell if you didn't know their underlying philosophies and traditions but saw both of them using strange powers to tear the galaxy apart?

Is this an intelligent categorization of the war? No, but I doubt enough of the people of that time period felt highly of the Jedi at this point anyway, so this was also a way to blame the Order and all the Jedi for all their suffering.

Let's not forget where all this started and could have been averted...

The Jedi Civil War was the result of Revan for joining in the Mandalorian Wars. Revan gained most/all his support from going to fight the Mandalorians and the Council refused to get involved. They had ABSOLUTELY no reason to assume they knew better than the rest of the Order, but they pushed the Order to ignore their sense and stressed their authority.

The Council's refusal to get involved naturally would have gone against common sense and would likely have caused a Jedi like Revan to go rogue. Even if Revan were the Evil Dark Lord he was painted in the first game, it wouldn't have mattered if he was not allowed the means to gain support if the Council had taken action in the first place. Because they couldn't justify their side of the argument, more Jedi believed in Revan than they did the Council.

Let's not forget where all this started and could have been averted...

The Jedi Civil War was the result of Revan for joining in the Mandalorian Wars.

Blatant lie #1. The Jedi Civil War was the result of Darth Revan corrupting his Jedi followers and the military personnel under his command to the dark side, followed by an unprovoked attack on the Republic shipyards of Foerost (which was the first battle of the war). Revan began the aforementioned corruption process before the Mandalorian Wars ended.

Quote:

Revan gained most/all his support from going to fight the Mandalorians and the Council refused to get involved.

Ignoratio elenchi (otherwise known as an irrelevant conclusion). What is that supposed to prove? Choosing to join the Republic Military was the only thing he could gain any support from doing at all. It was a yes/no situation.

Quote:

They had ABSOLUTELY no reason to assume they knew better than the rest of the Order, but they pushed the Order to ignore their sense and stressed their authority.

False. The Jedi Council was unwilling to immediately join the war because the Order was still wounded from the Great Sith War with Exar Kun, and they had reason to fear that joining another armed conflict would devastate the Order (which, unsurprisingly, is what resulted). I need not bother to mention that the Council was evaluating the Mandalorian threat (rather than completely ignoring them as you like to insinuate) and also suspected that they were not the real galactic threat.

If one is to refuse to believe either of the Council's official reasons, one also has to believe that more than half of the Jedi Order is composed of people who are either mentally retarded or like to collectively be a bunch of *******s for no reason whatsoever (and by extension, one must believe that the writers of the KOTOR series were idiots as well because KOTOR would be as stupid as hell if that was the actual plot of the games).

I also notice how you consistently use the words "the Order" and "the rest of the Order" when talking about the supposed "schism" which Revan caused. You are clearly trying to imply that the Council and the Jedi loyalists were far outnumbered by the Crusaders, of which there is no evidence whatsoever.

Quote:

The Council's refusal to get involved naturally would have gone against common sense and would likely have caused a Jedi like Revan to go rogue.

You seem to be treating the event of a Jedi leading a faction of the Order to the Mandalorian Wars as having been an inevitability, which is merely unsupported wishful thinking on your part.

Quote:

Even if Revan were the Evil Dark Lord he was painted in the first game

Blatant lie #2. Darth Revan was the evil Dark Lord he was painted as in the first game. If Revan wasn't evil, then neither was Palpatine.

Quote:

Because they couldn't justify their side of the argument

See the third, fourth, and fifth paragraphs of my post.

Quote:

more Jedi believed in Revan than they did the Council.

Blatant lie #3: More passing off your own fanon/wishful thinking as fact. Nowhere in either KOTOR games is there evidence that the number of Jedi Crusaders/Crusader sympathizers even so much as equaled (let alone outnumbered) the loyalists.

"There is something going on in time and space, and beyond time and space, which, whether we like it or not, spells duty." -Winston Churchill

"For of all sad words of tongue or pen, The saddest are these: 'It might have been!'" -John Whittier

The Jedi Civil War was the result of Revan for joining in the Mandalorian Wars. Revan gained most/all his support from going to fight the Mandalorians and the Council refused to get involved.

Myself and TKA have already adressed the point about the Council not getting involved. But, to further reinforce it -

Quote:

Originally Posted by Wookieepedia

Only thirty years earlier, the fallen Knights Exar Kun and Ulic Qel-Droma had successfully led a host of Jedi to the dark side and thence to war with the Jedi Order. The resulting struggle with the Sith took a very heavy toll on the Order and it had yet to fully recover. In the face of a looming Mandalorian threat, the Jedi Masters grew cautious lest they repeat the mistakes of the past; They were wary of the dark side and they sensed that an unknown hand was at work behind the new war.

I know it's from wookieepedia, but it phrases the situation better than I can.

Quote:

They had ABSOLUTELY no reason to assume they knew better than the rest of the Order, but they pushed the Order to ignore their sense and stressed their authority.

I feel compelled to remind you that Revan had ASBOLUTELY (as you put it) no reason to assume that he knew better than anyone else either.

Quote:

The Council's refusal to get involved naturally would have gone against common sense

How, exactly? They had their reasons for not getting involved - others disagreeing with them doesn't mean they aren't using common sense.

Quote:

Because they couldn't justify their side of the argument, more Jedi believed in Revan than they did the Council.

"Not destroying what's left of the Order in another bloody war" seems like justification enough.

1) Zez-Kia Ell: Only one to take responsibility for anything and to ponder the politically incorrect idea that [heresy]the Jedi aren't all that great[/heresy].
2) Kavar: Believed that the Jedi were right when they were obviously wrong, but was moderate about his convictions and attempted to do what was right.
3) Vash: Rebuked Atris (anyone who rebukes Atris is a decent person in my book ) and since she has so much cut content we don't know enough to really judge you.
4) Zhar: Trusting and friendly, but like most Jedi, wrong about Revan and Malak.
5) Dorak: Same as Zhar.
6) Vandar: Useless.
7) Vrook: Hypocrite. His ideology is against hatred and yet he has an intense hatred of any "Dark Siders". At least he's though to kill.
8) Atris: Traitor. She sells out everyone, including herself, to a bunch of Sith Holocrons. If I didn't play LS all the time I'd finish her off or leave her to the Holocrons.

As of 3/14/10, TSL is restored. The Sith Lords Restored Content Modification by Stoney and Zbyl has been finished and can be downloaded here.

Wow, this thread is clearly srs bsns. I'm sorry for flogging a dead horse, but heck. It's very late here, so excuse any incoherence.

Atris is a very well-written character. On first glance, she's nothing more than an arrogant, selfish hag who is just there to annoy the Exile. But the important thing to remember about her is that she genuinely believed that she was doing the right thing. She's the perfect example of the road to hell being paved with good intentions. She leaked word of the conclave at Katarr, hoping that the Sith would show their hand, but obviously that backfired.

During the events of TSL, she thought herself to be the last of the Jedi (which was not far from the truth), and she devoted herself to a single cause: ensuring that the Jedi survived. She had fallen long before that, or to be more precise, begun her slow descent. It wasn't one impetuous act that damned her. If not for Kreia opening her eyes to her own darkness, Atris probably would have carried on in the same vein.

So while I like Kavar best for being the most reasonable Council member, Atris is by far the most complex.

The sun goes down and the sky reddens, pain grows sharp.
light dwindles. Then is evening
when jasmine flowers open, the deluded say.
But evening is the great brightening dawn
when crested cocks crow all through the tall city
and evening is the whole day
for those without their lovers

So while I like Kavar best for being the most reasonable Council member, Atris is by far the most complex.

Indeed, the most complex, if not a bit predictable. Actually, very predictable.

My vote goes for Zez-Kai Ell. His intellect and perceptiveness lead him to the conclusion that the Jedi way, or the Jedi methodology, most likely lead to the creation of the Sith, and that the masters were singularly responsible for the corruption of their pupils simply because they taught something that was too strict. The Jedi way may have helped force users conquer darker impulses, but it also put too much strain on natural human emotions that are not necessarily catalysts for evil, choosing to neglect them instead of face and conquer them.

This lead to their complete repudiation of any paths to salvation that may have required risks or sacrifices to the dark side, such as involvement in the Mandalorian Wars, and the subsequent war caused by Revan to ultimately strengthen the Republic against a much more dangerous threat. Because they refused to try other methods, electing to remain strict and ignorant other options, they perished, and their students turned from them. Zez-Kai Ell was possibly the first Master to see this, and the resulting internal conflict made for fantastic story.

Atris is a very well-written character. On first glance, she's nothing more than an arrogant, selfish hag who is just there to annoy the Exile. But the important thing to remember about her is that she genuinely believed that she was doing the right thing. She's the perfect example of the road to hell being paved with good intentions. She leaked word of the conclave at Katarr, hoping that the Sith would show their hand, but obviously that backfired.

Quite true. She's a very complex character. Just makes me hate her all the more.

But, like I said, my qualms with her are not whether or not she's complex or whether or not I like her. It's that she's bland and predictable. I mean, she has tons of depth, but the depth is something we've seen many times before, righteous anger, self-importance, barely-contained love for someone who is forbidden. She's not simple in character structure, but the structure itself is plain, and you can see exactly where it's going. She's just not an emotionally moving character, she doesn't surprise me or stimulate me.