is a vital part of Tibet’s Nyingma (”ancient”) lineages. And yet, ever since the 11th century, when certain partisans of the new translations or Sarma, questioned the authenticity of the Guhyagarbha tantra, its status became a disputed issue in Tibet.

The most detailed and sustained attack on the authenticity of the Guhyagarbha tantra was written by the 11th century translator Gö Khugpa Lhetse, based on his failure to find any lineage for the tantra in India and the fact that, according to his judgement, it didn’t resemble genuine Indian Tantras.

Gö Khugpa’s criticism was rather rash: features which he found suspect in the Guhyagarbha are in fact also found in tantras of the new translation period that he accepted. Nevertheless, enough doubt remained that the tantra was excluded from the scriptural canon (bka’ ‘gyur) compiled in the 14th century.According to some Nyingma apologists, Gö Khugpa attacked the tantra because he had been refused certain transmissions by Zurpoché Shakya Jungne, one of the most influential Nyingma figures of that period. (Tibetan famous politics ?)

All of You, thank You very much for your attention, contribution and done effort.

But i agree fully, we are slowly going into a wrong deviated direction, from one thing comes another.And sure did my Tantra explanation only deal with Tibetan politics and related Tibetan confusions who can put the people on a wrong leg of understanding.

When i may resume our discussions:

Dzogchen practice has as top awareness that Rainbow Body and can be attained after hard practice within this very live. Tibetan: Jalü or Jalus (Wylie 'ja' lus); Chinese: 虹光身 / 光蘊身; Cantonese: Hong Gworng Sun / Gworng Whun Sun) What would be the name in Sanskrit?

Then we have the Tantric path where the Bardo is important to get emancipated as well the maximum of 16 following/sequential lives

Then we can practice the Bodhisattva path which results in the attainment of Buddhahood but only after a very and very long time. That we have seen and proved by the Bodhisattva Shakyamuni who became a Boeddha by this path.

We could agree then to the following paths: Sutra - Tantra + Mahamudra - DzogchenWhich are dependent on our motivation which would be thenlow - avarage - highest with the related level of understanding + karma

So WHY THE RAINBOW BODY? that must be now very clear to us, because it is a very personal choice made upon our karma and level of understanding.

Or like i allways say, some like patatoes and others rice.Or like i allways see in my practice as acupuncturist what for someone is medicine is for another poison and vice versa.

Enlightenment has in my opinion, nothing to do with the remains of an illusiory karmic body from which the mind separates but with the paths if they are long or short.

Long paths have unnecessary suffering inside and when this can be avoided well why not do a shortcut like Dzogchen?

I can assure You, that everybody here aboard: who can read about Dzogchen, understand it in a proper way,can have teachings from a Dzogchen lineage or Nyingma or Bon,which are authentic lineages which can be trusted

Have anyway in this live the big opportunity to get progress like a rocket which CAN result in the Rainbow Body after practising which is the very factor everywhere, otherwise no result. And besides that one can better serve the sentient beings as a Buddha and not as a Bodhisattva.

But do not lets discuss now that a Buddha can emanate himself in a Bodhisattva to serve the sentient beings, that all is Tibetan difficult to understand stuff which shows only the superiority of the way of the Bodhisattva.Sure we also can have that discussion somewhere else here but please not here.We have here and now to make a choice to become a Dharmakaya aspect by the practice of Dzogchen or to become the Bodhisattva by the means of the Tulku lineage................... But the family tradition like in the Sakya and Bon is also nice.

So if we can have about Dzogchen:knowledge - insight - Wisdom - realisation by awareness or to be in the Natural State

then we can with the help of this forum get knowledge and insight about Dzogchen, but then there must be done very to the point and clear explanations done by the practitioners who have the experience or that partial or more realisation of their Natural State. That is what i personal mean with who from You is practising?

So dear Administrator Astus, for me can this topic be ended and closed because i guess we have answered your very difficult question in all colours and rainbows, don't You?

By the way from You did not we hear nothing whereas you did start with that very "difficult to understand" 1 line question.Are You a Dzogchenpa?

I've been reading through this discussion and while the double meaning of rainbow body was pointed to by Pema Rigdzin the reason behind the importance of attaining jalu phowa chenpo was not clarified to me. Like, one can tell the difference between the attributes and abilities of an arhat and a buddha according to different traditions, or the different results of practices like the four immeasurables and breath awareness.

So, it is an option that one just admits not knowing the answer which has been stated here a few times worded as "we're small, this is difficult". But I assume those who care to argue against other methods know a lot more than that about rainbow body and how actually it is an unsurpassed attainment.

I'm not a Dzogchen follower, it is simply my interest in Dzogchen teachings that made me bring up this question here. Also, I think, it is good to know what actually is meant by the different schools when they claim to have the best of the best method, for sure I want to know the best method too.

"There is no such thing as the real mind. Ridding yourself of delusion: that's the real mind."(Sheng-yen: Getting the Buddha Mind, p 73)

I've been reading through this discussion and while the double meaning of rainbow body was pointed to by Pema Rigdzin the reason behind the importance of attaining jalu phowa chenpo was not clarified to me. Like, one can tell the difference between the attributes and abilities of an arhat and a buddha according to different traditions, or the different results of practices like the four immeasurables and breath awareness.

So, it is an option that one just admits not knowing the answer which has been stated here a few times worded as "we're small, this is difficult". But I assume those who care to argue against other methods know a lot more than that about rainbow body and how actually it is an unsurpassed attainment.

I'm not a Dzogchen follower, it is simply my interest in Dzogchen teachings that made me bring up this question here. Also, I think, it is good to know what actually is meant by the different schools when they claim to have the best of the best method, for sure I want to know the best method too.

Tashi delek Astus,

Thanks for your kind reply.

Also nice to hear from You that You are interested in good methods.Guess You allready would know anf practice some good methodsBut nevertheless one can enrich the personal methodsIf the mind is ready and open for it

Have a further nice day at your place

Best wishe for our individual practiceKalden Yungdrung

THOUGH A MAN BE LEARNEDIF HE DOES NOT APPLY HIS KNOWLEDGEHE RESEMBLES THE BLIND MANWHO WITH A LAMP IN THE HAND CANNOT SEE THE ROAD

Astus wrote:So, it is an option that one just admits not knowing the answer which has been stated here a few times worded as "we're small, this is difficult". But I assume those who care to argue against other methods know a lot more than that about rainbow body and how actually it is an unsurpassed attainment.

I'm not a Dzogchen follower, it is simply my interest in Dzogchen teachings that made me bring up this question here. Also, I think, it is good to know what actually is meant by the different schools when they claim to have the best of the best method, for sure I want to know the best method too.

hi astus,

To make your doubt clear:

If the result is buddhahood, then there is no BEST or not; first, buddhahood is beyond good or bad, second, buddha (sangye) means completely enlightened, if there is better or less good, it's not complete.If we accept two kinds of rainbow bodies, mahamudra's highest stage, dzog rim's highest stage are all buddhahood, then there should have no classes.

Therefore, when someone says some method is the best, he means THE METHOD, which is the path. When he says a certain method is good because it can let you acheive rainbow body, he is not saying rainbow body form enlightenment is suprior than other kind of enlightenment. He is saying the method is suprior because it has an ability that other methods don't have. Simple as that.

If you don't think rainbow body is better, it doesn't matter; but you can't deny it's a special thing which other methods can't do, can you? Now you are saying it's special, but what's the good of it? What kind of answer do you expect from people who are obviously not rainbow bodies? At best we can only tell you things from tantra, from commentaries, from great masters' words, right? If you are not satisfied about that, what else can we offer??

There are many ways to measure if a method is better, but in the end you need to check if a method suit you. That's the most important. You said you want to know which method is the best, I think the one suit you the best is the best.

In my point of view, Dzogchen is objectively supreme because the view is totally direct. we can't actually testify the supriority of paths and results unless we are on them or attained them. Logically we can only measure the views, and Dzogchen got the highest view, so we believe the rest is also high. Same logic as why you trust buddha and his teaching. But that doesn't mean everyone needs Dzogchen, doesn't even mean Dzogchen suits me.

I think to appreciate the enlightenment from the practice of Dzogchen, one has to appreciate how Dzogchen explain how our current state of delusion come about.

Dzogchen explains that the nature of reality is beyond the physical and the mental and how the physical and mental phenomena appear from ignorance. The practice of Dzogchen is the reversal of that process. Other systems of Buddhist practice are based on a different take on the appearing of the physical and mental phenomena and that is reflected in their system of practice. Since the bases of practice are different, the results will be different.

As I see the Dzogchen explanation as superior to other explanations, I therefore expect the results to be superior too. That is why I said earlier that the rainbow body is a testament to the superiority of the Dzogchen system.

Are there different scope of enlightenment? I think so. The realization of an Arhat is a certain scope of enlightenment. The realization of a Pratyekabuddha is a higher scope of enlightenment. For Bodhisatvas traversing the grounds, they have different scope of enlightenment. Hence, I don't see why there could not be subtle differences within the supreme enlightenment of a Buddha as explained in Dzogchen.

Sherab wrote:I think to appreciate the enlightenment from the practice of Dzogchen, one has to appreciate how Dzogchen explain how our current state of delusion come about.

Dzogchen explains that the nature of reality is beyond the physical and the mental and how the physical and mental phenomena appear from ignorance. The practice of Dzogchen is the reversal of that process. Other systems of Buddhist practice are based on a different take on the appearing of the physical and mental phenomena and that is reflected in their system of practice. Since the bases of practice are different, the results will be different.

As I see the Dzogchen explanation as superior to other explanations, I therefore expect the results to be superior too. That is why I said earlier that the rainbow body is a testament to the superiority of the Dzogchen system.

Are there different scope of enlightenment? I think so. The realization of an Arhat is a certain scope of enlightenment. The realization of a Pratyekabuddha is a higher scope of enlightenment. For Bodhisatvas traversing the grounds, they have different scope of enlightenment. Hence, I don't see why there could not be subtle differences within the supreme enlightenment of a Buddha as explained in Dzogchen.

Hello Shenrab

Thanks for the reply

Would we therefore have two Dharmakyas?Kuntu Zangpo who is naked and Dorje Chang who is slightly adorned?

Best wishes for our individual practiceKalden Yungdrung

THOUGH A MAN BE LEARNEDIF HE DOES NOT APPLY HIS KNOWLEDGEHE RESEMBLES THE BLIND MANWHO WITH A LAMP IN THE HAND CANNOT SEE THE ROAD

I understand that Dharmakaya is beyond the conception of one or many. However for pedagogical purpose, I believe Bon Dzogchen teaches that there is an individual Dharmakaya and an universal Dharmakaya. Nevertheless, I think it is still possible to have different scope of realization as argued previously.

"If you don't think rainbow body is better, it doesn't matter; but you can't deny it's a special thing which other methods can't do, can you?"

If it is about dissolving the body into rainbow light, well, I suppose it is covered by the magical techniques yogis, spirits and gods have. If it is realising the emptiness of the form aggregate that is found in the fundamental teachings. But as it is a combination of the two certainly it is a unique Dzogchen thing.

"Now you are saying it's special, but what's the good of it? What kind of answer do you expect from people who are obviously not rainbow bodies? At best we can only tell you things from tantra, from commentaries, from great masters' words, right? If you are not satisfied about that, what else can we offer??"

Maybe I've missed it but saw only a couple of quotes from teachers and nothing from tantras or commentaries. Also, it is not irrelevant what one quotes. If I cited the Cakrasamvara or the Vairocanabhisambodhi Tantra how would that help? Even the Kulayaraja Tantra would be useless here as it doesn't discuss the rainbow body, iirc.

"There is no such thing as the real mind. Ridding yourself of delusion: that's the real mind."(Sheng-yen: Getting the Buddha Mind, p 73)

"Dzogchen explains that the nature of reality is beyond the physical and the mental and how the physical and mental phenomena appear from ignorance. The practice of Dzogchen is the reversal of that process. Other systems of Buddhist practice are based on a different take on the appearing of the physical and mental phenomena and that is reflected in their system of practice. Since the bases of practice are different, the results will be different."

I recognise the difference between Vajrayana's subtle body teaching and the common Mahayana lacking that. But to say that according to Dzogchen everything appears from ignorance while others say differently, well, what about dependent origination then? If Dzogchen were so radically different from general Buddhism that it had a different basis with different result it'd mean it is not even Buddhism. But to me it seems that all the Buddhist schools say that "from ignorance appears formations". But this has little to do with the rainbow body's actual relevance, I think. It's enough to compare Dzogchen with the other Vajrayana systems where they don't take the rainbow body as the ultimate achievement.

"Hence, I don't see why there could not be subtle differences within the supreme enlightenment of a Buddha as explained in Dzogchen."

It's not a question about the superiority of Dzogchen itself that I've asked but the reason for rainbow body being more special than perfect enlightenment understood by any other tradition, like Mahamudra.

"There is no such thing as the real mind. Ridding yourself of delusion: that's the real mind."(Sheng-yen: Getting the Buddha Mind, p 73)

Subtle body in Vajrayana - I don't think this is the same as Dzogchen rainbow body.

Ignorance and dependent origination - Due to Ignorance, the chain of dependent origination is activated isn't it? From Ignorance, there arise the duality of self and other. Without the arising of duality of self and other, there can be no clinging and grasping and formation.

Difference between Dzogchen and general Buddhism - Within Buddhism, there are many differences. Just because Dzogchen has differences with general Buddhism does not make it any less a Buddhist practice.

I didn't equate subtle body with rainbow body. Regarding ignorance what you said was what we have everywhere in Buddhism, so why say Dzogchen is any different on this point? And while there are many traditions they share the view of what to be free from and to attain liberation. I brought up other Vajrayana schools only as a convenient reference point for comparison. And again, it is quite a specific and not a general question I'd like to investigate here, ie. the rainbow body's significance and its uniqueness.

"There is no such thing as the real mind. Ridding yourself of delusion: that's the real mind."(Sheng-yen: Getting the Buddha Mind, p 73)

I was responding to your post (see quote below). I guessed I understood you wrongly.

Astus wrote:Sherab,

"Dzogchen explains that the nature of reality is beyond the physical and the mental and how the physical and mental phenomena appear from ignorance. The practice of Dzogchen is the reversal of that process. Other systems of Buddhist practice are based on a different take on the appearing of the physical and mental phenomena and that is reflected in their system of practice. Since the bases of practice are different, the results will be different."

I recognise the difference between Vajrayana's subtle body teaching and the common Mahayana lacking that. But to say that according to Dzogchen everything appears from ignorance while others say differently, well, what about dependent origination then? If Dzogchen were so radically different from general Buddhism that it had a different basis with different result it'd mean it is not even Buddhism. But to me it seems that all the Buddhist schools say that "from ignorance appears formations". But this has little to do with the rainbow body's actual relevance, I think. It's enough to compare Dzogchen with the other Vajrayana systems where they don't take the rainbow body as the ultimate achievement.

"Hence, I don't see why there could not be subtle differences within the supreme enlightenment of a Buddha as explained in Dzogchen."

It's not a question about the superiority of Dzogchen itself that I've asked but the reason for rainbow body being more special than perfect enlightenment understood by any other tradition, like Mahamudra.

Sherab wrote:Subtle body in vajrayana = the complex of tsa, lung and tigle.

Yes, I know what the subtle body is. Does this mean you're unaware of the relevance of tsa, lung, and tigle to Dzogchen practice, particularly togal (through which the body of light is realized)?

The fact that Dzogchen does not involve meditating on the channels, winds, and tigle (like one does in deity yoga's completion stage with signs) should not lead you to the mistaken assumption that tsa, lung, and tigle are somehow irrelevant to Dzogchen. In fact, togal teachings speak a great deal about them, with a couple special wisdom channels only being mentioned in Dzogchen tantras.

Sherab wrote:Subtle body in vajrayana = the complex of tsa, lung and tigle.

And you are thinking that just because Dzogchen doesn't involve manipulating tsa, lung, and tigle that they are unrelated to and irrelevant to Dzogchen, particularly togal (through which the body of light is realized)?