vargaso wrote:I'm so tired of having to brush up against those dusty people or having their furtive couplings forced upon me behind thin sheets of nylon as I stroll past their shanties. Also, their beer is always warm from lack of proper refrigeration.

The RV's in our camp are a live sustainability/off-the-grid demonstration where we plan to teach around 30 workshops this year on gray water recycling (our RV's are modified to reduce consumption from 40% (the simple system that simply uses gray water to flush the toilet) up to 90% (a system that distills black-water... we're seeing if we can use the resulting poop-chips to power a Stirling cycle engine....)), VAWT (Vertical Axis Wind Turbines, gonna build a few and see which design works best), positive pressure air filtration, heat recycling, etc.

We also provide emergency food, shelter, and water for up to 40 ADDITONAL people for up to 48 hours in the event of a condition alpha storm.

But yeah. Ban RV campers because we are selfish rich elitists whose only purpose is to commodify your burn. None of the off-the-grid stuff we develop for our RV's has application in your home... oh, wait, I'm patterning the system in my house after the system on my RV that I'm using to teach others with at the burn...

Look at what's going on here. Exclusion of one demographic replaces trust with fear and equanimity with power dynamics and in-fighting. Don't go there.

I differ from Trilobyte on my view of the fulfillment rates partially because of the dynamic that bradtem points out: fewer people want to go badly enough that they're willing to put their money where their mouth is 8 months in advance, or "just in case" so that they can cover a friend. I rather like the idea that people have to be intentional, know they want to go to the burn and do something about it in order to go to the burn. It emphasizes desire, not price, as a selection mechanism. I like thinking that anyone who knows they want to go enough to set some money aside and commit well in advance can have a good shot at going, regardless of how many years they've been, whether or not they use an RV, or whatever the discriminatory criteria for the day are. People can choose which group they're in; the ones who are willing to commit, and the ones who aren't. Self-selection. Not discrimination. I know someone will say "but I don't have my tax return by then". Well, neither do I. I make my budget, live within my means, and make it happen.

Last edited by mshaman on Tue Mar 06, 2012 5:52 pm, edited 1 time in total.

On that subject of discrimination, I think the precedent set by this year's last 10,000 going to hand-picked camps is absolutely frightening. It's like martial law, necessary during wartime, but what if the beneficiaries never declare peacetime? They had to do it this year. But what about next year? And the year after that? I'm watching carefully to see how policy-makers interpret radical inclusion; that interpretation will be the most powerfully shaping force in burner culture for the next era.

The only thing a short duration registration window would have done is caught some people off guard, and if you're trying to increase your odds through such outright deceptive tactics then, quite frankly, you need to be blacklisted from the event.

The lottery was designed to allow all people who wished to acquire tickets a fair chance in getting their tickets. It is the same idea behind maintaining fair voting rights for all citizens. If we're going to compromise the ethics of the event just to keep it exclusive for a bunch of self-entitled vets, then Burning Man needs to be ended.

Oh wait, didn't we already do that? 10,000 tickets, hello? Pretty clear they already had to "compromise the ethics of the event just to keep it exclusive for a bunch of self-entitled vets."

I swear to God that 90% of your posts could be summarized "Whatever BRC LLC decided = GOOD, whatever anyone else suggests something = BAD" and any complaint = "whining entitled brat." Add in some vitriolic language plus condescending and/or spiteful tone then multiply over-reaction to original poster by 1,000 and voila, instant BBadger post. I'm sure I could write Javascript to spit this out and save you all the trouble.

But I guess that's one way to post 1,400 times since joining ePlaya only 2 months ago....

Jesus Christ man try some decaf....

Last edited by alt12 on Tue Mar 06, 2012 6:51 pm, edited 4 times in total.

Burning Man "culture" has nothing to do with the creature comforts people choose to bring for the their week on the playa, nor any other ridiculous, arbitrary thresholds concocted by clueless, burnier-pretentiousness-than-thou morons who infect this event and forum.

Good point, and I agree, however just like doggies had to go away and the drive by shooting galleries, the event is changing so It appears sacrifices have to be made and rules have to be put into place. Some of these ridiculous, arbitrary thresholds are just that, but necessary anyway. I mean, I could hang in a double-wide all day and then walk around in my t-shirt and jeans at night shitting in the middle of the esplanade if I wanted to right? Maybe jump in front of cyclists at night in a black ninja suit if that's my thing? Doesnt sound like fun to ME, but to some, saying that they can't do that stuff may be crossing what they consider to be a valuable freedom of choice. I mean if the culture has nothing to do with what people bring to the playa, in every sense, then what exactly DOES it have to do with?

One thing I find very interesting, is the ongoing theme here that it seems alot of these people, such as the technically proficient mshaman, seem to be associating the RV with the RV'er, as if they are one entity. As if there is no way you would ever go out there without one. I keep thinking of the guy I had a conversation with outside Bruno's, post burn. I saw him kiss his hardtail chopper after vigorously polishing it. "Beautiful bike sir, where did you ride it from?" "Southern Cali" "You're kidding me right? You rode that up here from SoCal with nothing but that bed roll and a tool kit?" "Yep" "That's amazing!" "Why is that amazing? What else would I need?"

Or a hitchhiker I picked up on the way out to the burn, he had a small backpack, I met him hiking up an on-ramp in Wyoming. Chuck was a man of few words so the things he did say seemed to have so much more weight than your average Joe. Three remarks I remember from Chuck. After parking on the main drag in Salt Lake one night, we got out of the truck to go into a bar for dinner and a drink and I said "Don't you wanna put your pack in the cab of the truck so it doesn't get grabbed Chuck?" he replied "What for? There ain't nothing in there". Two days later, while soaking in the hotel hot tub, just before he was gonna start hoofing it toward Idaho and I was about to head into the desert, I said, "Chuck you gotta try this jacuzzi out, It does wonders". He looked me and said, "If I get in there, I won't get out". When pressed for the real reason he wouldn't get in, he looked me dead in the eye and as serious as serious could be said "I already dun told ya, if I get in there, I ain't gettin out". The third was the best. I had grown fond of Chuck so when it came time for him to go west and me north, I said to him, "Chuck, as a gift to you, I'd like to buy you a ticket to Burning Man, your welcome to come and camp with me" Chuck said to me "What in the world would I wanna spend $300 for to go out in the middle of the desert and act like an asshole? I could do that anytime I want fer free!" He smiled and closed the door, thanked me for the ride, and started walking to Idaho. I tried to give him a cop style maglight but he complained it was too heavy so I convinced him to take a small lightweight hand cranked variety which he liked alot.

"what if one of these times the man says f it and decides to burn us?"

B the B wrote:Ok, now I see the link. You are right, there would still be concierge camping, but not everybody who would otherwise be in a motorhome would hire a service like that, at least I hope not. Even then it would at least change the landscape for the better. I know it's not THE solution by any means, but there's got to be a discussion about steps that could be taken toward the direction that everybody would like to see this event go, besides in the shitter. Change happens, theres always a solution. Banning RV's is far safer then my second suggestion; bring back firearms, abolish the speed limit, ban blinkies, glowsticks, headlamps and elwire, and stop selling ice and coffee, all in the same year

Remove the noise cap from the loud camps, but put the amp racks outside with backstops.

The only thing a short duration registration window would have done is caught some people off guard, and if you're trying to increase your odds through such outright deceptive tactics then, quite frankly, you need to be blacklisted from the event.

The lottery was designed to allow all people who wished to acquire tickets a fair chance in getting their tickets. It is the same idea behind maintaining fair voting rights for all citizens. If we're going to compromise the ethics of the event just to keep it exclusive for a bunch of self-entitled vets, then Burning Man needs to be ended.

Oh wait, didn't we already do that? 10,000 tickets, hello? Pretty clear they already had to "compromise the ethics of the event just to keep it exclusive for a bunch of self-entitled vets."

Oh wait, BBadger wasn't discussing BMOrg's decision play favorites with remaining 10k lottery tickets in any shape or form in the previous reply, hello?

Why was this even brought up? Maybe some false memories from reading mshaman's reply?

Even if the new 10k ticket policy were mentioned, what are you even trying to say here? That one exclusivity policy (shortening the sign-up window to catch people off guard or reduce interest), is somehow eclipsed and made benign because of another exclusivity policy that would be introduced later?

I swear to God that 90% of your posts could be summarized "Whatever BRC LLC decided = GOOD, whatever anyone else suggests something = BAD" and any complaint = "whining entitled brat." Add in some vitriolic language plus condescending and/or spiteful tone then multiply over-reaction to original poster by 1,000 and voila, instant BBadger post. I'm sure I could write Javascript to spit this out and save you all the trouble.

Right, just like my lock-step support of playing favorites with theme camps.

But hey, cool story bro. Join in on the "airing of grievances" unrelated subject.

But I guess that's one way to post 1,400 times since joining ePlaya only 2 months ago....

That's 1 year and 2 months ago. Even the 2 months of endless single-poster lottery and STEP complaining couldn't generate that many posts.

"The essence of tyranny is not iron law. It is capricious law." -- Christopher Hitchens

[quote="mshaman”] snip I think the precedent set by this year's last 10,000 going to hand-picked camps is absolutely frightening. It's like martial law, necessary during wartime, but what if the beneficiaries never declare peacetime?”......[/quote]

What? Really? Trying to compare ticketing for week’s holiday in the desert to martial law. Is that what you are doing.

Man, move to Syria and see how your first world problems stack up to theirs.

melaniejane wrote:[quote="mshaman”] snip I think the precedent set by this year's last 10,000 going to hand-picked camps is absolutely frightening. It's like martial law, necessary during wartime, but what if the beneficiaries never declare peacetime?”......[/quote]

What? Really? Trying to compare ticketing for week’s holiday in the desert to martial law. Is that what you are doing.

Man, move to Syria and see how your first world problems stack up to theirs.[/quote]

That's was a pretty good analogy imho. It wasn't hyperbolic in referring to a specific event like calling it the Holocaust of ticket distribution or the Armenian Genocide of Burning Man policies. Martial law is a term that isn't particularly loaded with emotion, and martial law is hardly what is happening in Homs.

Maybe he should have said "wartime powers." Lots of wartime powers that were seen as necessary during WWII became permanent fixtures in America. Government rarely willingly gives up power it has taken for itself. The concern expressed was that the BM Org would act in the same manner.

melaniejane wrote:[quote="mshaman”] snip I think the precedent set by this year's last 10,000 going to hand-picked camps is absolutely frightening. It's like martial law, necessary during wartime, but what if the beneficiaries never declare peacetime?”......[/quote]

What? Really? Trying to compare ticketing for week’s holiday in the desert to martial law. Is that what you are doing.

Man, move to Syria and see how your first world problems stack up to theirs.[/quote][/quote]

melaniejane wrote:[quote="mshaman”] snip I think the precedent set by this year's last 10,000 going to hand-picked camps is absolutely frightening. It's like martial law, necessary during wartime, but what if the beneficiaries never declare peacetime?”......[/quote]

What? Really? Trying to compare ticketing for week’s holiday in the desert to martial law. Is that what you are doing.

Man, move to Syria and see how your first world problems stack up to theirs.[/quote][/quote][/quote]

BBadger wrote:(shortening the sign-up window to catch people off guard or reduce interest)

instead of repeating yourself can you please explain how "shortening the sign up window catches people off guard"??? please do explain.

its very nice how you put down concepts but the juice of it is useless.

I don't want to put words in BBadger's mouth, but I suspect he's saying that people who are uninformed, presumably not interested enough to take initiative to research how to get a ticket, tend not to get a ticket when they can't decide in late summer, with the "oh, yeah, I think I feel like going..." attitude. Having to commit tends to eliminate those who aren't committed, which seems like a better selection criteria than membership in a particular camp, in my book.

You think long and hard before you buy an airline ticket because you you have to buy well in advance if you don't want to give a pound of flesh for it (uh oh, another metaphor... ), you know it's non-transferable and non-refundable. So you only buy it if you really mean to go, rather than putting in for the "option" of going by claiming your spot on the plane. In my mind shortening the window, non-transferable, and partially refundable tickets accomplishes a similar goal: only the people who are certain they want to be on the Burning Man plane tend to buy a ticket, rather than hogging the option.

@crpytofishist- Apparently, one must paint a very clear picture for some readers. I'm sorry to bore those of you who already get it.

mshaman wrote:@crpytofishist- Apparently, one must paint a very clear picture for some readers. I'm sorry to bore those of you who already get it.

@mshamanSigh. Rolls eyes. Yes I have a basic command of the use of similes.

My issue is the comparing of BM ticketing issues to actual serious issues like martial law, like freedom of speech, like wars, like basic human rights. Yeah I get you are angry and annoyed - and that's fair enough. But trivialising matters like Martial Law doesn't do you any favours.

All I am asking for is some perspective. IS THAT TOO MUCH TOO ASK FOR!

mshaman wrote:@crpytofishist- Apparently, one must paint a very clear picture for some readers. I'm sorry to bore those of you who already get it.

@mshamanSigh. Rolls eyes. Yes I have a basic command of the use of similes.

My issue is the comparing of BM ticketing issues to actual serious issues like martial law, like freedom of speech, like wars, like basic human rights. Yeah I get you are angry and annoyed - and that's fair enough. But trivialising matters like Martial Law doesn't do you any favours.

All I am asking for is some perspective. IS THAT TOO MUCH TOO ASK FOR!

I don't think I'm trivializing it by noticing a parallel. BM is a little microcosm of society, with all of the glories and all of the evils, like the playground at school. We see little kids doing things that are not so nice to each other on the playground, and it frightens the hell out of me if I extend that trajectory off the playground and into their adulthood. If I extend the BMOrg trajectory into societal terms, it is equally concerning. If I view BM and a sociological experiment, I'm watching all the dynamics that cause societies to do some really bad things but in a smaller, less violent context. That doesn't make it less concerning, or make the precedent less dangerous to the culture we're examining, or make the parallel less valid.