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In regards to the "slain by the spirit" shtick, I have experienced similar things like that first hand. I was raised in a non-denominational, charismatic, fundamentalist, bible church. By raised, I mean church on Sunday mornings, elder meetings Sunday afternoon, and Sunday and Wednesday nights. Can't forget about all the youth group activities and Sunday school stuff. Oh, and I went to the ACE accredited school attached to the church. I pretty much lived there.
It has been a long hard climb out of that place. Even after 30 years, it is hard to buck an upbringing like that.

I'd ask if you went to the same place I did, but I swear that was only twenty years ago. And I'm not sure the school was accredited by anyone....

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I can't tell whether I'm watching a bunch of play-acting, the results of the art of suggestion/near hypnosis, or such a skilled Tai Chi user that real moves look unreal.

That's definitely play acting. I've seen quite a bit of competitive pushing-hands between non-cooperative opponents (and done some myself, intended as a sensitivity exercise of sorts while warming up for the actual sparring to come), and it looks nothing like that.
When done for real, you can clearly see leverage being applied, in a way that doesn't look like a violation of the laws of physics

I read the title as 'no touch marital art' at first, which would be an even more impressive feat.

Are you kidding? That describes the majority of my married life.

"Go to sleep. Don't touch me."

__________________As the size of an explosion increases, the number of social situations it is incapable of resolving approaches zero. -Vaarsuvius
It's a rum state of affairs when you feel like punching a jar of mayonnaise in the face. -Charlie Brooker

That's definitely play acting. I've seen quite a bit of competitive pushing-hands between non-cooperative opponents (and done some myself, intended as a sensitivity exercise of sorts while warming up for the actual sparring to come), and it looks nothing like that.
When done for real, you can clearly see leverage being applied, in a way that doesn't look like a violation of the laws of physics

Indeed, the fact that actual touching is involved does not necessarily exclude something from being high grade bullshido. What I have seen of pressure point techniques (mostly in a workshop taught by someone who, IIRC, claimed some sort of lineage or mutual influence from George Dillman) seems to clearly be bullshido to me.

Not true. European martial arts continue to be displayed--it's called "fencing".

Originally Posted by Delvo

Also "boxing" and "wrestling".

I meant that it stopped being practiced in a military context. It became a game - at best, a sport. It ceased to be a method to defend one's life. Asian martial arts continued to be used for that purpose - how successfully is a matter of opinion.

Originally Posted by Dinwar

There's also a revival of European martial arts...

I think you know I know that...

Like I said, it was pure speculation on my part. And I'm speaking generally - I know that duels continued to be fought into the 18th and 19th centuries. Don't spoil a good speculation.

So Cameron is still at it. I found this video through a post on Facebook. I had some trouble recognizing him due to aging as the video on Facebook was actually a shorter excerpt which did not identify him. Bullshido cranked up to 11:

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__________________As Einstein once said, "If you can't think of something relevant to say, just make something up and attribute it to some really smart dead guy.""I find your lack of pith disturbing," - Darth Rotor..........
Don't be offended. I'm not calling you a serial killer. -- Ron Tomkins.

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__________________"If I hadn't believed it with my own mind, I would never have seen it." - thanks sackett
"If you stand on a piece of paper, you are indeed closer to the moon." - MRC_Hans
"I was a believer. Until I saw it." - Magrat

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YouTube Video This video is not hosted by the ISF. The ISF can not be held responsible for the suitability or legality of this material. By clicking the link below you agree to view content from an external website.

The tall thin student looks like a guy I saw train with him years ago and was all shiney-eyed puppy when Peter Young did anything

Ah, Dondrup Dorje! I've seen this particular video and others before but had completely forgotten about it. I don't think I had specifically seen the one you linked to before but I had seen others. I did, however, recognize the tall guy and knew it was a group that I had seen before in other YouTube videos (though I did not remember that the name of the cult is the Pathway Institute nor that the teacher calls himself Dondrup Dorje).

The tall guy clearly is the most theatrical of all (though all give equally absurd performances --maybe it's just about having longer limbs?). He is clearly #1 student.

Here's another one:

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I love the note at the end of that video about the old lady with the back pain. Somehow, the fact that the Dondrup Dorje got a bunch of grown men to leap theatrically in front of the old lady is supposed to prove what, exactly?

By the way, the red shirts tell me that none of the students could be a Star Trek fan!

What is it with the hopping? It doesn't imitate the result of real physical forces and it certainly doesn't look like anything seen in real martial arts (unless one puts a lit match between someone's toes). If any actor in a movie stunt tried to move in that way to imitate a blow or push, they would rapidly be taken aside and told to cool it down 11 notches.

I presume that this bunny hopping not only convinces the "Master" but also looks to the organization as a whole to be convincing and worth including in a youtube video.

Interesting question as to if the Master knows the truth or not, and what the students are thinking as they mime through the routine.

What is it with the hopping? It doesn't imitate the result of real physical forces and it certainly doesn't look like anything seen in real martial arts (unless one puts a lit match between someone's toes). If any actor in a movie stunt tried to move in that way to imitate a blow or push, they would rapidly be taken aside and told to cool it down 11 notches.

I presume that this bunny hopping not only convinces the "Master" but also looks to the organization as a whole to be convincing and worth including in a youtube video.

Interesting question as to if the Master knows the truth or not, and what the students are thinking as they mime through the routine.

I imagine it's much the same as goes on in the minds of audience members influenced to perform prescribed actions by stage hypnotists.

__________________As Einstein once said, "If you can't think of something relevant to say, just make something up and attribute it to some really smart dead guy.""I find your lack of pith disturbing," - Darth Rotor..........
Don't be offended. I'm not calling you a serial killer. -- Ron Tomkins.

I've used "chi" energy to take the strength out of my victims arm before. Then I tell them it's all a stupid trick and I just pushed harder. Sadly, only most of them believe that I tricked them. The rare idiot that thinks it wasn't a trick believes that I'm the one that is foolish enough to not understand that I have real powers.

__________________All national institutions of churches, whether Jewish, Christian or Turkish, appear to me no other than human inventions, set up to terrify and enslave mankind, and monopolize power & profit - Thomas Paine

I've used "chi" energy to take the strength out of my victims arm before. Then I tell them it's all a stupid trick and I just pushed harder. Sadly, only most of them believe that I tricked them. The rare idiot that thinks it wasn't a trick believes that I'm the one that is foolish enough to not understand that I have real powers.

Oh Bob! In my 9th grade science class the teacher was clueless. I think it was one of those situations where administration must have told her "we need a science teacher and you are it". Did I mention this was 9th grade science? Anyway, so it's science class and she calls this kid in front of the class and tells him to stand with his arms at his sides raised so they are parallel to the floor. I think you know where this is going...

Did I mention this high school teacher was supposed to be teaching us science? You know, like the school district was paying her real money to instruct students in various subjects and one of the subjects she was being paid to teach, in particular the one she was supposed to be teaching in that class, was science.

So yeah, she says that she is going to try to pull the kid's arm down (as I recall, she made sure to pick one of the bigger kids) and instructs him to resist. Of course, predictably, she can't pull his arm down.

Then she passed her hand in front of the kid with a vertical motion and tried again, this time succeeding in pulling his arm down. At that point she proceeded to explain to the class that the reason she was able to pull down the kid's arm on the second try was because she had broken his "force lines" (you know, with the magical pass she did with her hands) . I'm pretty sure she did not take that lesson from any science book so I have no idea what made her put up that demonstration.

I was soooo pissed that we had someone claiming to be teaching science doing such a demonstration! I have no idea if I said something because this was so long ago (I suspect some posters to this thread hadn't been born yet). I know that I certainly did not keep my moth shut about every stupid thing that she said or did.

That is the trick I do. It is so stupid. I use it to demonstrate gullibility.

__________________All national institutions of churches, whether Jewish, Christian or Turkish, appear to me no other than human inventions, set up to terrify and enslave mankind, and monopolize power & profit - Thomas Paine

I once had to stand in a line with my hands on the shoulders of the person in front etc while a martial arts guy"who knew he was ********ting" made a push in the air ten feet in front of us. I had to physically manhandle the guy in front of me to stop him trying to throw himself backwards on me. Had I not been bigger than him the line would certainly have staggered as a whole.

It's the whole basis of stage hypnosis/mental magic. You don't honestly need stooges. Just start with a group of 10 or so people and you will be unlucky if there won't be one or two there who will simply fake the effects for attention. All you need do then is concentrate on them.

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I can't tell whether I'm watching a bunch of play-acting, the results of the art of suggestion/near hypnosis, or such a skilled Tai Chi user that real moves look unreal.

I know Huang Sheng Shyan by reputation from Malaysian friends at Uni. He did have quite some skill from what I heard and I learned the "weight jin" from a student of a student and it really boosted my jujitsu locks.
This video is classic Asian "show respect for the old master". It would be considered very bad form not to fall as required. It's one reason the old masters will do these demos but they have a senior student who accepts challenges on his behalf. The few I've heard of who maintained fighting ability into later years were also renowned for their personal training regimes. You get out what you put in.

__________________Aphorism: Subjects most likely to be declared inappropriate for humor are the ones most in need of it. -epepke

I once had to stand in a line with my hands on the shoulders of the person in front etc while a martial arts guy"who knew he was ********ting" made a push in the air ten feet in front of us. I had to physically manhandle the guy in front of me to stop him trying to throw himself backwards on me. Had I not been bigger than him the line would certainly have staggered as a whole.

It's the whole basis of stage hypnosis/mental magic. You don't honestly need stooges. Just start with a group of 10 or so people and you will be unlucky if there won't be one or two there who will simply fake the effects for attention. All you need do then is concentrate on them.

Yup, you definitely would want to have your best students at the front of that line.

Yes, yes I am and I need some financial help. If I give you my paypal information, will you send me the $5K I need to fund my mission to mars rocket?

__________________All national institutions of churches, whether Jewish, Christian or Turkish, appear to me no other than human inventions, set up to terrify and enslave mankind, and monopolize power & profit - Thomas Paine

I noticed, in a few vids, that the red-shirt/skirt crowd are the ones who really hop - like springbok. It must be a style of a school. They learn to "succumb to the force" by bias and imitation, but when you contrast different styles it really shows that no external force is at work; it's all themselves.

__________________"If I hadn't believed it with my own mind, I would never have seen it." - thanks sackett
"If you stand on a piece of paper, you are indeed closer to the moon." - MRC_Hans
"I was a believer. Until I saw it." - Magrat

I know Huang Sheng Shyan by reputation from Malaysian friends at Uni. He did have quite some skill from what I heard and I learned the "weight jin" from a student of a student and it really boosted my jujitsu locks.
This video is classic Asian "show respect for the old master". It would be considered very bad form not to fall as required. It's one reason the old masters will do these demos but they have a senior student who accepts challenges on his behalf. The few I've heard of who maintained fighting ability into later years were also renowned for their personal training regimes. You get out what you put in.

At the age of 60 Huang Sheng Shyan again demonstrated his abilities in taijiquan by defeating Liao Kuang-Cheng, the Asian champion wrestler 26 throws to 0 in a fund raising event in Kuching Malaysia.

Surprisingly, there are video excerpts of that on YouTube:

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It's truly farcical. I guess the fact that it's a fund raising event means that it must really be a demo or maybe a pro-wrestling type event: Huang Sheng Shyan has one role to play the wrestler guy as another role.

The worst is at 2:35. Watch it at 0.25x speed. The wrestler is either at the ropes at one end or fairly close to them while Huang Sheng Shyan is on the other half of the ring (narrow way) and then the wrestler simply launches himself at the floor. Even if Huang Sheng Shyan could reach him (which he obviously can't since in a generous estimate they are no less than 6 feet away) it's fairly clear from what you can see that Huang Sheng Shyan has his arms by his body the whole time.

And here's one of those parlor tricks by Huang Sheng Shyan with the shooting chi through a bunch of people:

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Originally Posted by cosmicaug

Oh Bob! In my 9th grade science class the teacher was clueless. I think it was one of those situations where administration must have told her "we need a science teacher and you are it". Did I mention this was 9th grade science? Anyway, so it's science class and she calls this kid in front of the class and tells him to stand with his arms at his sides raised so they are parallel to the floor. I think you know where this is going...

Did I mention this high school teacher was supposed to be teaching us science? You know, like the school district was paying her real money to instruct students in various subjects and one of the subjects she was being paid to teach, in particular the one she was supposed to be teaching in that class, was science.

So yeah, she says that she is going to try to pull the kid's arm down (as I recall, she made sure to pick one of the bigger kids) and instructs him to resist. Of course, predictably, she can't pull his arm down.

Then she passed her hand in front of the kid with a vertical motion and tried again, this time succeeding in pulling his arm down. At that point she proceeded to explain to the class that the reason she was able to pull down the kid's arm on the second try was because she had broken his "force lines" (you know, with the magical pass she did with her hands) . I'm pretty sure she did not take that lesson from any science book so I have no idea what made her put up that demonstration.

I was soooo pissed that we had someone claiming to be teaching science doing such a demonstration! I have no idea if I said something because this was so long ago (I suspect some posters to this thread hadn't been born yet). I know that I certainly did not keep my moth shut about every stupid thing that she said or did.

How do you know, for sure, she wasn't some sort of evil Jedi Sith Lord? Can you prove she wasn't?

__________________"Never judge a man until you’ve walked a mile in his shoes...
Because then it won't really matter, you’ll be a mile away and have his shoes."

I reckon the lack of a large blue screen tied to her back would rule that out.

__________________"If I hadn't believed it with my own mind, I would never have seen it." - thanks sackett
"If you stand on a piece of paper, you are indeed closer to the moon." - MRC_Hans
"I was a believer. Until I saw it." - Magrat

It's truly farcical. I guess the fact that it's a fund raising event means that it must really be a demo or maybe a pro-wrestling type event: Huang Sheng Shyan has one role to play the wrestler guy as another role.

The worst is at 2:35. Watch it at 0.25x speed. The wrestler is either at the ropes at one end or fairly close to them while Huang Sheng Shyan is on the other half of the ring (narrow way) and then the wrestler simply launches himself at the floor. Even if Huang Sheng Shyan could reach him (which he obviously can't since in a generous estimate they are no less than 6 feet away) it's fairly clear from what you can see that Huang Sheng Shyan has his arms by his body the whole time.

And here's one of those parlor tricks by Huang Sheng Shyan with the shooting chi through a bunch of people:

Yeesh.

__________________Aphorism: Subjects most likely to be declared inappropriate for humor are the ones most in need of it. -epepke

I once had to stand in a line with my hands on the shoulders of the person in front etc while a martial arts guy"who knew he was ********ting" made a push in the air ten feet in front of us. I had to physically manhandle the guy in front of me to stop him trying to throw himself backwards on me. Had I not been bigger than him the line would certainly have staggered as a whole.

It's the whole basis of stage hypnosis/mental magic. You don't honestly need stooges. Just start with a group of 10 or so people and you will be unlucky if there won't be one or two there who will simply fake the effects for attention. All you need do then is concentrate on them.

Is it just attention seeking, or is it suggestible people being eager to please too? I suspect the latter for some of the "slain in the spirit" thing, and possibly for some stage tricks.

__________________OECD healthcare spending
Expenditure on healthcarehttp://www.oecd.org/els/health-systems/health-data.htm
link is 2015 data (2013 Data below):
UK 8.5% of GDP of which 83.3% is public expenditure - 7.1% of GDP is public spending
US 16.4% of GDP of which 48.2% is public expenditure - 7.9% of GDP is public spending

Is it just attention seeking, or is it suggestible people being eager to please too? I suspect the latter for some of the "slain in the spirit" thing, and possibly for some stage tricks.

I suspect a number of reasons. Some people just seem desperate to believe in something, especially if it marks them as special. Some people just acting the way they think they're supposed to. And don't underestimate social effects : google Solomon Asch for example

__________________Aphorism: Subjects most likely to be declared inappropriate for humor are the ones most in need of it. -epepke

I suspect a number of reasons. Some people just seem desperate to believe in something, especially if it marks them as special. Some people just acting the way they think they're supposed to. And don't underestimate social effects : google Solomon Asch for example

I just did after posting that and seeing your earlier post suggesting that. (Thank you)

This pretty much describes what I was thinking:

Quote:

Asch told his colleagues that his idea to study conformity was brought about by his childhood experiences in Poland. He recalls being seven years old and staying up for his first Passover night. He recalls seeing his grandmother pour an extra glass of wine. When he asked who the glass of wine was for, she said that it was for the prophet Elijah. He then asked her whether he would really take a sip from the glass and his uncle assured him that he would. His uncle told him to watch very closely when the time came. "Filled with a sense of suggestion and expectation" Asch "thought he saw the level of wine in the cup drop just a bit".[12] Thus, early in life, Asch succumbed to conformity, which fostered his idea to investigate conformity later in life.

__________________OECD healthcare spending
Expenditure on healthcarehttp://www.oecd.org/els/health-systems/health-data.htm
link is 2015 data (2013 Data below):
UK 8.5% of GDP of which 83.3% is public expenditure - 7.1% of GDP is public spending
US 16.4% of GDP of which 48.2% is public expenditure - 7.9% of GDP is public spending