homicide call: .22 LR performance

Just got back from a homicide call.
Two drunks were arguing over the last swallow of liquor in a bottle.
To settle the dispute, the perp pulled out a revolver and shot the victim one time in the front/side of the forehead. The victim died instantly.
The revolver was a true "Saturday Night Special":
A stamped-metal snub-nosed revolver, broken white plastic grips, with half the "bluing" worn off (the bluing looked like black spray paint).
The revolver was stamped "made in USA" but we could not find who the manufacturer was. The trigger guard was bent and mis-shapen.
The cylinder held 8 or 9 rounds, but only five rounds were in it when we found the perp. Only one round had been fired, presumably the killing round.
I did not see the brand of ammo, but it looked like cheap bulk-pack. Lead round nose .22 LR. Solid point.
Perp was drunk as a skunk when we found him. The murder weapon was in his pocket.
Anyway, I guess even a piece of junk can be deadly, even in the hands of a drunk...
Sad thing was, I got the call for this one while I was at the hospital for another homicide. I'll spare you the details, but it looks like someone raped and killed a two year old.
I'm glad I'm going to the feds to prosecute drug lords and bank robbers...Just 15 more days of the cess pool here in Atlanta...
-David

Anyway, I guess even a piece of junk can be deadly, even in the hands of a drunk...

Of course it can kill. Why would this come as any sort of revelation to you? It may not be reliable, well made, pretty, or hugely powerful, but it is still a firearm that shoots real bullets. If they hit the right places, they can be deadly.

It is for these reasons that all firearms are considered to be lethal weapons.

22-rimfire

September 24, 2005, 11:33 AM

Yep, happens more often than we care to admit. I really don't think about "saturday night specials" as something that I would ever want to own. 22's can be deadly and this is repeated time and time again.

The truly troublesome comment to me was the 2-year old that was apparently raped and then killed. The perp needs to be hung (not the hot seat or drug induced) for this crime, and the penalty does not even come close to proper restitution.

Bopleo

September 24, 2005, 02:30 PM

What are the statistics in your department on homicides with a 22LR?

cookekdjr

September 24, 2005, 02:39 PM

What are the statistics in your department on homicides with a 22LR?

No one keeps stats on caliber usage at my office or the agencies we work with. People actually look at me funny when I ask detailed questions about the make and caliber of weapon, as well as the type of ammo. I try to keep track of what people use on my own.
RE: use of .22, I can think of three .22 LR homicides off the top of my head. Two were one-shot kills (last night's head-shot plus a torso shot that somehow hit enough vitals to kill a man a year or two ago.).
Tuesday I start a trial of a man who shot his brother 22 times with a .22 revolver. It was a six-shot snubnose H&R with Remington "thunderbolt" ammo he'd just bought at Wal-mart. He reloaded three times while his brother struggled to get up.
Most perps in shootings use 9mm. But it appears most homicide perps use .40 or .45.
-David

Bopleo

September 24, 2005, 02:47 PM

I used to work for an agency in LA, CA and there was a lot of homicides with the 22LR.
The gang banger's gun of choice was the .380, and 9mm (bryco's, and jennings).

cookekdjr

September 24, 2005, 02:48 PM

Of course it can kill. Why would this come as any sort of revelation to you? It may not be reliable, well made, pretty, or hugely powerful, but it is still a firearm that shoots real bullets. If they hit the right places, they can be deadly.

Well, we see alot of failed murder attempts with centerfire calibers, particularly with 9mm and .380. Alot of perps will shoot someone with a 9mm, and then the person firing back will use .40 or .45. The guy with the 9mm dies. The guy with the larger caliber lives. Happens more than you would think in a city like Atlanta with a large armed thug population.
Anyway, with so much "caliber failure" out there, sometimes we need to be reminded of what you said: if they hit the right places, they can be deadly.
A spontaneous drunk with a .22 in his pocket can kill anybody if he does it right. :(
At THR, we spend so much time planning for the optimal result from our weapon, we easily forget that Mr. Murphy is deadly in anybody's hands...

cookekdjr

September 24, 2005, 02:51 PM

I used to work for an agency in LA, CA and there was a lot of homicides with the 22LR.
The gang banger's gun of choice was the .380, and 9mm (bryco's, and jennings).

Ahhh...Jennings and Bryco. The first choice of thugs and gang bangers the world-over (or at least across this country).
We have alot of gunfights that start with a Jennings or Bryco 9mm/.380 and end with a Glock .40/Ruger .45/other quality big-bore.

Old Fuff

September 24, 2005, 03:39 PM

>> We have alot of gunfights that start with a Jennings or Bryco 9mm/.380 and end with a Glock .40/Ruger .45/other quality big-bore. <<

Are the latter handguns (Glock .40/Ruger .45/other quality big-bore) in the hand of other thugs, or someone else?

denfoote

September 24, 2005, 10:52 PM

Sad thing was, I got the call for this one while I was at the hospital for another homicide. I'll spare you the details, but it looks like someone raped and killed a two year old.

Did you find the F'in monster???

A simple yes or no will do.

If not, then you need to find him fast. Just make sure he makes it back to the station in one piece and remember that Tazars are considered a non leathal weapon (take extra batterys). :evil:

c_yeager

September 25, 2005, 01:45 AM

I seem to remember an old statistic pointing out that the .22lr has been used in more homicides in America than all other cartridges combined. It makes sense when you think about it. The .22LR is the cheapest ammunition and the weapons that fire it can often be had cheap as well. Plus its small and low pressure so it is well suited for cheap pot-metal guns. Also consider that its been around longer than just about anything else.

cookekdjr

September 25, 2005, 02:23 PM

Did you find the F'in monster???

A simple yes or no will do.

No. The parents lived in a boarding house, and a crack dealer lived in the back room. There were always people coming in and out of the back door. Looks like somebody did it while daddy was on the front porch less than 10 feet away. Mommy was at work.
I think we will have perp's DNA. Don't ask how.
We'll get him eventually.
-David

Old Fuff

September 25, 2005, 06:19 PM

cookekdjr:

I can easily understand why you want to get out of what you've been doing and move on to something else. In your place I think I would have either burned out or killed somebody.

But I do want you to know that the insights you have offered us have been very valuable, because they come from real life on the street, and not some armchair theorist. It is clear that just about any bullet can kill, and that placement in a vital organ is what does the job, not a fancy marketing name for the cartridge or projectile.

I wish you good luck in whatever new endeavor you’re moving to.

cookekdjr

September 26, 2005, 03:22 PM

Thanks Old Fluff. I appreciate the kind words.
I'm really looking forward to my new job and new town.
-David

cookekdjr

September 26, 2005, 03:31 PM

>> We have alot of gunfights that start with a Jennings or Bryco 9mm/.380 and end with a Glock .40/Ruger .45/other quality big-bore. <<

Are the latter handguns (Glock .40/Ruger .45/other quality big-bore) in the hand of other thugs, or someone else?

Other thugs. Typically, one drug dealer shoots another one, but not fatally. He walks to the ER, or goes home and puts on some bactine (Really). He carries a .380/9mm round in his a-- for a couple days/weeks till he sees the guy that shot him standing alone. He takes out his .40/.45 and guns the guy down. He gets arrested for murder, and goes to jail. The guy who shot him last week goes to the ME's office for an autopsy. I go to the scene (while the body is still there), and help put the case together, or someone else puts it together, and I try the case. We take turns going to the scene.
A variation of the above is:
Thug number one shoots Thug number two with a 9mm.
Thug number two shoots back with a .40/.45.
The guy with the 9mm usually dies.
the guys with the .40/.45 usually lives.
Just a rule of thumb. YMMV.
-David

Jim K

September 26, 2005, 09:05 PM

"...a man who shot his brother 22 times with a .22 revolver."

Whew! Good thing he didn't have an S&W .500.

Jim

TonyB

September 27, 2005, 11:35 AM

as long as the thugs/gang bangers/morons are only shooting eachother,I don't see a problem..thinning of the herd..when bystnders get hit is when I have a problem.
The above story proves the "placement" concept... :rolleyes:

cookekdjr

September 27, 2005, 12:47 PM

"...a man who shot his brother 22 times with a .22 revolver."

Whew! Good thing he didn't have an S&W .500.

Jim

FYI, Jim, this guy just pled guilty a few minutes ago, right before we going to start jury selection. He was a marine vet and was medically discharged with paranoid schizophrenia. Although he was still mentally "off", his illness didn't qualify him for "not guilty by reason of insanity". So he pled "guilty but mentally ill" a few mintues ago before we started trial.
He got a life sentence, but corrections is ordered to treat him. He is parole-elligable, but it will be awhile...a long while...

-David

Standing Wolf

September 27, 2005, 06:42 PM

We'll get him eventually.

I'm sending my best hopes that you find him sooner rather than later.

Frandy

September 27, 2005, 08:14 PM

Hey, David...

The guy with the 9mm dies. The guy with the larger caliber lives.

This can be read two ways.

Was it the guy with the 9mm "bullet wounds" dies...

OR

The guy with the 9mm "in his hand" dies...

Which?

gunfan

September 27, 2005, 08:21 PM

"...this guy just pled guilty a few minutes ago, right before we going to start jury selection. He was a marine vet and was medically discharged with paranoid schizophrenia. Although he was still mentally "off", his illness didn't qualify him for "not guilty by reason of insanity". So he pled "guilty but mentally ill" a few mintues ago before we started trial.
He got a life sentence, but corrections is ordered to treat him. He is parole-elligable, but it will be awhile...a long while..."

It looks as if they'll be pumping sunshine into the mental institution for many a year! :uhoh: :neener:

Scott

cookekdjr

September 27, 2005, 08:30 PM

gunfan,
Yeah, this guy will be in for many years. Bottom line was, he meant to kill his brother, and he did kill his brother, and he wasn't hallucinating at the time he did it. His problems did give him a short temper, which is why I wanted to cut him a deal for manslaughter, but the higher ups wouldn't let me.
Oh well. We're all probably better off anyway. He gets his treatment. And we don't have to worry about him shooting anybody else.
-David

cookekdjr

September 27, 2005, 08:34 PM

Hey, David...

Quote:
The guy with the 9mm dies. The guy with the larger caliber lives.

This can be read two ways.

Was it the guy with the 9mm "bullet wounds" dies...

OR

The guy with the 9mm "in his hand" dies...

Which?

The guy who used the bigger, more powerful gun lives.
(Usually. Let's not forget the LEO who shot a suspect 4-5 times center mass w/a .357, only to be killed by the single shot of a .22 pistol).
-David
__________________

Onmilo

September 28, 2005, 08:57 AM

Speaking of .22 performance, a local kid zapped himself in the forehead with a 10/22.
Distraught over a break-up with his girlfriend, (Sigh).
Anyway, the bullet went in and cut a perfect X in the horizontal cross section of his thinking matter.
Penetrated the frontal plate, ricocheted off two concave surfaces and exited the left temple, I'm impressed.
Needless to say, it was an instant 'one shot stop.'