But this isn't just some story that people are saying is a great epic myth, its a story that people claim is the inerrant and perfect word of God.

Also, many of the contradictions leave Christian beliefs fundamentally broken if all are considered valid. For example take the claim that God is love
found in 1 John 4, then compare that to God in Exodus 21 where he meets with Moses and tells Moses that the Hebrews can buy and sell people as if they
are property, keep them as slaves, sell their daughters into slavery and God even instructs Moses on how hard they can BEAT their slaves. Then also
bring into account the fact that God, by his own admission, is a JEALOUS God and contrast this with 1st Corinthians and the famous love chapter, in
fact contrast ANY of the Biblical God's actions against this and usually he fails:

4 Love is patient, love is kind. It does not envy, it does not boast, it is not proud. 5 It does not dishonor others, it is not self-seeking, it
is not easily angered, it keeps no record of wrongs. 6 Love does not delight in evil but rejoices with the truth. 7 It always protects, always trusts,
always hopes, always perseveres.

As far as we know, God may use the innocent souls of these first born for some event in the future to do His will.

In Egypt the act against the First Born is direct revenge for the enslavement of his people and the genocide of the Hebrew first born that Pharaoh had
carried out (the one that Moses needed to be saved from to begin with). Later on in the chapter Yahweh explains that sins of the Father can pass onto
the sons, another complete affront to justice. Yahweh often punishes children for the sins of their parents, other than in the case of Job, in Job's
case he did nothing wrong and his children were still murdered.

until all is revealed.

The Biblical God is no more capable of revealing these things than Zeus is capable of explaining his seduction of mortal women (ie they're both
fictional mythical characters).

The moral and logical contradictions between scripture and scripture, and doctrine and scripture, leave Christianity in tatters and they are only the
tip of the ice berg of reasons not to believe.

Thanks for bring up that angle, it's called the "Doctrine of Inclusion." If you Google that you'll find tons of leading websites that attempt to
debunk it. Personally, having grown up Christian, it makes sense to me. Are god and Jesus so weak that they can't even pull off an effective human
blood sacrifice that works for all? Does the blood of Jesus loose potency in the presence skeptics?

I think that Jesus was telling people that the biblical god of the OT, and the one being represented in the temple by the sadducees and pharisees, was
a false god. I think he was teaching of a new god, a, new age god, that resides within us, and can be accessed by each of us from within.

Maybe you misunderstood me, perhaps I'm misunderstanding what you said.

I'm not afraid of my actions or views either. I know what wrongs and rights I've committed, and I know who I am deep inside. Coexistence, balance, and
empathy are some of the things that are central to me. I am not a divider. My points of view arose from being challenged by other points of
view. I grew because it taught me to question even my core beliefs. But it starts when we take a step back and think about it, because we aren't
thinking when we're being impulsive. Now that the action was committed, it's probably time ponder the effect of said action.

Or not.

As for indoctrination vs indoctrinated person: do guns kill people or do people with guns kill people? Also, your comment reminds me of this:

His disciples said to him, "Who are you to say these things to us?"

"You don't understand who I am from what I say to you. Rather, you have become like the Judeans, for they love the tree but hate its fruit, or they
love the fruit but hate the tree."

Again, there could be a misunderstanding here. I apologize if there is.

edit on 26/6/12 by AdamsMurmur because: (no reason given)

I am probably not explaing myself enought.

The point I tried to make was that sometimes in trying to go for the highest ideal we are making the illusion that all people have the same
understanding/experiance and can fit into a nondualistic ideals already, when they are clearly not ready for it. This can be seen as a 2 duality
groups where there is a layer of people who are not over a treshhold of understanding something or choose not to understand and people who have
answers from within. I do not say they will not cross it and that the ones over the treshhold have all the knowledge of it and it is not a race
getting there. But ignoring the fact that there is at this moment a duality where we hope there will be none in the future is ignoring the difference
in understanding philosophy/spirituality/thruth behind religons.

In simple terms. It is hard to guide a person to understand collage math when he have not figured out plus and minus and will not listen to people who
understands it because he thinks he is a collage math proffesor and know better than anyone else.

What is judgeing and not is also in a way based on viewpoint. In fact all interaction between 2 people can be seen as manipulation towards a goal. The
manipulation can be teaching, loving, hating and be of selfish of selfless intent. I might hurt people by my comments even if it is not meant as it
but in the end I will pay the karma for it.

When the mind is not healthy it cannot produce healthy thoughts is my answer to your ideas of trees and fruits. Bad indoctrination is a brainwashing
towards unhealthy mind built on ego,hate and fear. The ego, hate and fear is the reason the person gets the gun and kills. Wrong ideas to the wrong
person who cannot handle them is very dangerous because they cannot control ego.

But then this is a ego struggle I myself spend time thinking about and examining my own ego. Ego/mind is a hard thing to control since it want total
freedom to experiance all thoughts.

Aside from the views of many Christians on gays and lesbians, could proseletizing along the lines of "recieve Jesus into your heart or be damned"
considered a type of hate speech, whether towards the other individual or even at a deeper, unconscious level, towards Jesus Christ himself, who is
unconditional love itself without limits or boundaries (all inclusive)..?

It's obvious your not a true follower of Yeshua as you do all the things he said not to do. Keep throwing the F word around because calling someone a
fundamentalist just really means they believe the Bible and you do not.

Do you mind if I ask you what you have experienced through meditation?

What have you learned that you didn't already know?

I asked this of a previous poster, but they chose not to share it. Can you?

I had a forced spritiual awakening brought in by extreme need for release of pain. I literaly had suffered so much that the spirit takes over and
ego/mind is crushed temporarily. Free will was in fact temporarily lost. There is a strange sense of peace at that moment after a fear imposed
amagydala overload since the brain will not be able to feel fear anymore. Your mind changes and you cant sleep and thoughts come so fluently. 4 days
later I read a spiritual book and everthing clicked in my head and I got answer from the other side. The reason im telling you this is that meditation
might not work the same for you since my experiances gave me a headstart where crown chakra and third eye was opened quickly by themselves.

If you go the meditation road you should probably go root chakra up and it will probably take months until you feel the physical changes.

Opened crown chakra gives the bliss that for me is proof of god/afterlife/hidden reality. Hard to not belive in the other side when you sometimes feel
like something gently caresing your head. Third eye brings synchronicity I think. Things around you seem to work out. When you think a question you
normally get an answer from yourself or other people around you during the day. The other 5 chakras only gave me hightened taste and hightened feeling
in my body. The potential for feeling in the body is remarkable and the body become less high maintance and still feel good.

I do only meditate thru listening to meditative chakra videos since sound change your mind and body. Christian monks probably chant and sing gregorian
music for the same reason. There are frequences that kinda vibrates inside your head. If you are ever uncomfortable then stop. From my point of view
all meditation should be easy.

Klassified, I think I found what you were looking for, but if anyone asks, you didn't get it from me. OK? LOL!

I have written this book to let the world in on a secret that the Church has kept away from most people for the last 1,400 years. This is the
secret: God will eventually save everyone. This truth, supported by the Bible, was widely accepted by early Christians for over 500 years. The belief
in universal salvation was threatening to some Church leaders and the teaching was banished in the sixth century. In the eighteenth century,
Christians once again began to affirm Universalism. Since then, many theologians, church leaders and millions of Christians have espoused it. God
promises to save everyone, so there is hope for us all.

Now I just created a whole bunch of new homework for myself on the history of early Christianity again. I've done so much research that some of what
I've already studied is starting to fall out one ear! God really does want us to spend a lifetime looking for Him, doesn't he??!! Research, study,
remember, forget...repeat!

Lol. I remeber when I in my mind told god that I would never agree to eternal punishment and would reject god if he was a bully and would not have
anything to do with Christianety because of it before I had my moment. In buddism this is karma and when the lesson is learned there is no longer need
for suffering. God also have a sense of humor from my point of view. He is litteraly playing hide and seek with every soul on this planet

. No souls
left behind in the end. God cannot be fully whole and happy without all his souls home and in harmony. If you enjoy his creation and is happy with
clean conciouss then you make him happy.

Then God said, “Let us make man in our image, after our likeness. And let them have dominion over the fish of the sea and over the birds of the
heavens and over the livestock and over all the earth and over every creeping thing that creeps on the earth.”

It is our image and our likeness and from my point of view it is not wrong that is is plural. As in a singular entity made up by plural entities.

You are as a cell to the body of god. A cell disconected that needs to be one with the whole body.

But then you should probably not listen to me who see the same message in buddism. 2 views and ways to say the same thing. Religions are cultural but
thruths are universal.

Yes, and Jesus Christ in his Great Work is the resolution to the karmic paradox, but the karmic wheel itself negates the need for hell. The only devil
remaining then, once the "strong man" was bound and his house pilfered leaving nothing, is the devil within which we each must take responsibility
for, bringing it to the cross for transformation. But those who say they can see and who believe they are right relative to the wrongs of others and
who would take pleasure in the idea that theirs is an exclusive club with others excluded and placed within an eternal domain of hell simply for not
accepting an exclusive and conditional doctrine, and who clearly do not have the love of Christ in them yet who claim to do his work in his name,
ah... woah to them?

Honestly, I fear for those who would drain from Jesus Christ and his Magnum Opus his (and his father's) great Love for one and all, which doesn't
bind, but which sets us free in eternity, to be with him where he is (now) and to love as he loves.

The point I tried to make was that sometimes in trying to go for the highest ideal we are making the illusion that all people have the same
understanding/experiance and can fit into a nondualistic ideals already, when they are clearly not ready for it.

Well I did address that, and I also mentioned it's a choice to even work on becoming ready. That's why your reply confused me I guess.

When the mind is not healthy it cannot produce healthy thoughts is my answer to your ideas of trees and fruits. Bad indoctrination is a brainwashing
towards unhealthy mind built on ego,hate and fear. The ego, hate and fear is the reason the person gets the gun and kills. Wrong ideas to the wrong
person who cannot handle them is very dangerous because they cannot control ego.

Personally, about the tree and fruit, I see it as "you either like it all, or don't; no cherry-picking." So if you like Christian fundamentals, it
would make sense that you wouldn't mind Christian fundamentalists. Funny enough, fundamental means the foundation, like the tree, and it's fruit are
the ones that practice those fundamentals. The fundamentals are the doctrines, albeit the literal interpretations of them.

Within a triune nature, you can see something like this: the fundamental, the interpretation, the doctrine. Fundamental + Interpretation = Doctrine.
Many people have a hard time with the interpretation of "fundies", more so than what's actually written in there. So, the "brainwashing" is only as
bad as the interpretation.

Originally posted by apushforenlightment
God also have a sense of humor from my point of view.

But Christ said theirs only one path to eternal life and that's through him.

All right, but here's a real mindfk for you and where many Christians get it wrong:

Jesus was the person, Christ is the energy, a title if you will. Two separate things housed in one body. Many people take the above statement to mean
only by accepting Jesus can one go on to eternal life. Not Jesus, Christ, and one does not have to espouse any particular belief system to receive the
Christed energy. A Buddhist has access to that Christed energy too without having to "accept Jesus as their personal savior." They might not use
that word, but what I call a rose and what a Russian calls a rose may sound different, but we are still talking about the same thing.

And what other way is there to God but via the truth and the life and the reality?

There is only one spirit of the living God in eternity and Jesus of Nazareth did indeed become Jesus the Christ, so of course there's no other way but
through him, it's not a statement of particularized exclusivity (that you can ram down someone's throat), except to exclude that which isn't of the
same pure one spirit of God within whom he was fully identified, maybe even reborn (from above) where what is born (even in a fog of controversy) of
the flesh is flesh, but of the spirit, spirit.

Jesus, in saying that any other way is the way of the thief and the brigand, is simply protecting the domain of life and love within the integrity of
his being, but there's nothing exclusive about it, since he himself was/is the all-inclusive Christ.

To then go around BEATING people with this, to be RIGHT?

What a disgraceful use of his example, imho.

Such statements - "no one comes to the father but by me" must be understood from his perspective, and cannot be understood or appreciated when Jesus
is himself turned into an idol external to and separate from one's own true self as child of God now reconciled. He is saying "come to me" not "don't
go anywhere else or you'll be damned", that's ABSURD!

Klassified, I think I found what you were looking for, but if anyone asks, you didn't get it from me. OK? LOL!

I have written this book to let the world in on a secret that the Church has kept away from most people for the last 1,400 years. This is the
secret: God will eventually save everyone. This truth, supported by the Bible, was widely accepted by early Christians for over 500 years. The belief
in universal salvation was threatening to some Church leaders and the teaching was banished in the sixth century. In the eighteenth century,
Christians once again began to affirm Universalism. Since then, many theologians, church leaders and millions of Christians have espoused it. God
promises to save everyone, so there is hope for us all.

Now I just created a whole bunch of new homework for myself on the history of early Christianity again. I've done so much research that some of what
I've already studied is starting to fall out one ear! God really does want us to spend a lifetime looking for Him, doesn't he??!! Research, study,
remember, forget...repeat!

Only one giant problem with this. No need to believe in Christ for salvation if he was going to save the world anyway, and he explicitly says to come
to him and believe in him. Revelation also throws a huge rock through the window, goats on the left, sheep on the right. In other words you just
neglected the entire purpose for having a savior to believe in to begin with. Universalism is a fallacy any biblical scholar worth his salt can blow
to pieces, it promotes ecumenism and negates the entire purpose for coming out of "Babylon". Under Universalism you don;t have to change, you can do
whatever you want and still be saved, that makes absolutely no sense because Yeshua says explcitly "if you love me you will keep my commandments"
and Revelation makes note of those who kept the commandments of Yah.

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