Jan. 6
01:30 pm JST

lets be honest here, immigration issues aren't with jobs and flooding of major cities. In Melbourne especially, it has to do with major VIOLENT crime by African immigrant gangs. Crimes that the police and politicians keep turning a blind eye to and calling anyone who points it out racist.

We are talking about rape of young girls, gang beatings of young isolated teens, violent robberies where they are holding knives and bats to babies and young children to force over goods from safes etc.

Lets not jump in and play the 7blame the white man' game here because even the Aboriginal leaders have come out pleading with these people to behave as proper humans!

Jan. 6
01:49 pm JST

They said Saturday's protest was against alleged African gang violence and youth crime in the city.

Its not "alleged".

It is fact. You need to correct that wording because that is factually incorrect and you are providing misleading information. People have been convicted and jailed.

Everybody knows this. Even the Victorian police know and admit there is a problem in Victoria, particularly Melbourne, St Kilda and certain suburbs, although they are reluctant to admit it, they have.

Not a fan about the general anti-immigration policies of some of these groups because I don't think they have a particularly balanced or nuanced view which is needed in order to come to a workable and positive immigration policy. There is a propensity to, at the least, not discourage violence, although the Antifa mob that often turn up at right wing rallies are far worse when it comes to confrontation and violence. The openly encourage it.

I find it interesting that much of the mainstream Australian media does there best to play down the problems of African crime in Victoria and yet are the first to leap into a hyped up hysteria about 150 right-wing activists. Australia's politicians are no better.

All that does is feed into the narrative of right wing activists in that the media and politicians refuse to recognize the genuine problems associated with certain types of immigration and are only to keen to barate people with those genuine concerns.

Australia falling into the same trap as Germany, Italy and many others that might yet yield the same result - a rise in far right parties.

We should know better. We should admonish intolerance, but we should also openly speak up about certain types of crime that seem to come from one particular group at far greater rates than the rest of society. We should not be shutting people up from voicing serious concerns on crime.

Jan. 6
03:03 pm JST

I agree with Matt's sentiments.

Australia is generally extremely tolerant and accepting of other ethnicities, but not being able to mention violent groups specifically, because it may be viewed as "right-wing & racist" is absurd. This is just adding fuel to the real bigots fire, who in turn use it as justification against the percieved "take over of the country".

My own family, spread over 3 generations (my siblings, our children and grandchildren) now have family members from multiple backgrounds. We originally were of Scottish/Irish stock and now include Japanese, Chinese, Filipino, Indian, Kenyan, American and Italian in our immediate families. None of us, and as far as I know friends et al, think of this as strange at all - not in Australia anyway.

Jan. 6
03:38 pm JST

Fighting crime belongs to the police, not rightwing hate groups who foment crime themselves. Australia has 25 million people. less that Tokyo who is often listed as one of the most livable cities in the world. The problem is not crowding, the problem is racism.

Immigration policy is complex and needs to be managed carefully. Calling for a final solution has nothing to do with that, it has to do with hate and racism. Using nazi salutes says it all about these people and their supporters.

Jan. 6
03:59 pm JST

Jan. 6
04:31 pm JST

The problem is not crowding, the problem is racism.

You referring to the desire by some for immigration cuts?

I think its both, but I don't think its no coincidence that those calls for immigration cuts have got louder as public transport and road transport in the major cities has become more congested, as house prices sky rocketed and that in general a culture more use to wide open spaces, the lack of huge areas of skyscapers and relatively lowly populated cities have witnessed them explode. Something like 90% of migrants head for the major cities in Australia. Its very much a city based problem.

The fact our planning is inadequate and rail antiquated adds to the problem. There is certainly a racist element to it, largely targeting Chinese and muslim migrants. But you know, in the grand scheme of what societies are open and cope well with immigration, and which don't, Australia has done very well.

It helps when you have a society that is largely quite prosperous, particularly when you have a social security system, that, broadly speaking functions reasonably well.

Australia has not had to deal with the socio-economic problems in Western Europe for example.

Immigration policy is complex and needs to be managed carefully.

Agreed and good general position to take I think

Calling for a final solution has nothing to do with that, it has to do with hate and racism. Using nazi salutes says it all about these people and their supporters.

Jan. 6
04:57 pm JST

There are racists in Australia as there are in every country.

I wince every time I see a news article about violence and the culprits are identified as 'youths of African appearance'. Not because I think reporting this is racist, but because Australia up until now has been one of the world's major success stories in accepting and integrating migrants from all over the world without too much of a problem. Personally, and as a migrant myself, I consider this a great national achievement.

The African youths responsible for the violence (usually Sudanese or South Sudanese) make it harder to argue for an open immigration policy against those who don't need much of an excuse to advocate for closing the doors. These youths let everyone down. Their families, the country, themselves, and all the other migrants who came before them.

Jan. 6
05:17 pm JST

These youths let everyone down. Their families, the country, themselves, and all the other migrants who came before them.

I agree.

And you know I think we are missing a point here that is important to highlight for an overall sense of where Australian society is at.

When it comes to what racism exists in Australia, I personally think that by far and away the greatest degree of racism doesn't apply to migrants at all, but rather first Australians, Aboriginal Australians. Whether in the city and certainly in rural and regional Australia, its something you will notice if you spend any significant time in the country.

I was born here and have lived here my entire life apart from spending time in Asia and the one constant in Australia's cultural make up is that the divide between Aboriginal Australia and everybody else has not really shrunk to the same degree as it has when you look all other ethnic groups.

Maybe my view is skewed because I have lived in rural and regional Australia a lot.

Jan. 6
05:23 pm JST

There is of course ethnic intolerance to be found in Australia or anywhere. The following extract from the Mapping Social Cohesion Report - Monash University 2015 indicates that multi-cultural Australia certainly has it's dissidents, but.........

"...On social cohesion, even multiculturalism’s critics would readily concede the social miracle of Australia’s twentieth and twenty-first century migration history. In the most recent Scanlon Foundation survey on social cohesion, there was evidence of a large measure of social cohesion – including at the level of neighbourhoods. Only **2 per cent of people strongly disagreed that people of different backgrounds get on well together in their local area. Only 3 per cent strongly disagreed **that the mix of different backgrounds improved life in their local area...."

While not perfect, the Australian education system actively engages the teaching of other cultures, ethnicities and languages. In my small home state, LOTE(Languages Other Than English) are taught at most schools including Chinese, French, German, Indonesian, Italian, Greek, Japanese, Korean, Spanish, Vietnamese and more than 50 schools teach traditional Aboriginal languages (7 in total). Big states can see these figures doubled or tripled.

Currently the Asian ethnic mix of the total Australian Population is over 25%. Yes - that's correct. 1 in 4. Over 30% of Australians were born overseas - ie 1st generation migrants.

Immigrants, in particular those of Asian backgrounds are represented fully in all walks of life and all vocations.

The current Governor-General of my home state is a Vietnamese war refugee.

His words -

"..."It is the stuff of a fairy tale to be honest, and I'm still trying to come to terms with that right now," he said.

As a young boat people refugee, I arrived here 36 years ago with nothing but an invisible suitcase filled with dreams, [with] a dream to live in a peaceful, safe and free country and to live a meaningful and fulfilling life.

But to be bestowed with the greatest honour and the privilege of holding the vice-regal office is absolutely beyond my wildest dream.

This appointment, however, says much more about our society than about me. It sends a powerful message affirming our inclusive and egalitarian society..."

Yes, while Australia certainly has it's degrees of difficulties with the question of immigration and assimilation, and anti-immigrant bigots exist like those portrayed in this article, the by and far majority do not accept such extreme views and actions..

Jan. 6
07:21 pm JST

I think social cohesion is weakened when human density makes it uncomfortable.

And therein lies the problem with immigration, they tend to settle in crowded areas, exacerbating transport, crime, and heat island issues.

But woebetide anyone critical of population growth, oh gosh no our ideal is fifty million at least ! The fact that we're completely incapable of planning, controlling or moderating, is never mentioned.

Jan. 6
07:39 pm JST

Maybe my view is skewed because I have lived in rural and regional Australia a lot.

No, I don't think your view is skewed at all. Anti-Aboriginal feeling is more of a factor outside the major cities, and in certain states rather than others, but it's still there, and sometimes really in your face.

Probably the first prejudice I became aware of when I arrived in Australia was the anti-Aboriginal one - apart from a kind of comic-book anti-British sentiment, that is, which has really waned in recent decades. Prejudice against Aboriginals might have become unconscionable for those of us who know the sorry history of white settlement in Australia, but it survives. Of course these guys in this demo in St Kilda aren't going to express any such sentiments - they're too politically savvy for that. Fraser Anning might, though, because he's a bona fide idiot.

Jan. 6
08:13 pm JST

Some immigrants arriving from war torn nations such as Sudan and Somalia seem to bring with them youths who have had to live by their wits as a necessity to their very survival. Arriving in a safe and peaceful environment can be difficult to adjust to and some fall into the survival mode that served them well in their home countries. They assault and steal but now without any real need to. I believe that those arriving from war torn nations should be given additional support and education on how to live in a peaceful country, for everyone's benefit.

Like soldiers returning from war there are silent invisible issues that many suffer from.

Jan. 6
08:13 pm JST

As is usually the case in many of the so-called first-world nations, minority groups committing crimes means the security of the "good" majority is threatened. Many of them forget the incredible violence their ancestors heaped upon the NATIVE and minority populations over centuries.

Jan. 6
08:17 pm JST

Didn't see the PM commenting on the gangs of 40 odd rioting middle-easterners or the apex gangs of Africans attacking people on the same beach last week, did we? Obviously, the locals have had enough of the open immigration policy allowing all these people to bring their troubles with them. The really stupid thing about this open immigration policy is, they implemented it to increase the workforce in Australia. However, the majority of the immigrants are unemployable welfare parasites who just make trouble. What a wonderful initiative, NOT!

Jan. 6
08:36 pm JST

Some immigrants arriving from war torn nations such as Sudan and Somalia seem to bring with them youths who have had to live by their wits as a necessity to their very survival. Arriving in a safe and peaceful environment can be difficult to adjust to and some fall into the survival mode that served them well in their home countries. They assault and steal but now without any real need to. I believe that those arriving from war torn nations should be given additional support and education on how to live in a peaceful country, for everyone's benefit.

Like soldiers returning from war there are silent invisible issues that many suffer from.

Good points. Douglas Murray in his recent visit to Australia made the same point when shown a video of Sudanese talking about their negative experiences when the media and politicians focused on the issue. And Douglas is bang on with his comments.

Jan. 6
09:33 pm JST

Jan. 6
09:57 pm JST

I immigrated to Australia in 54, it was always a racist country, they urged uk and europeans to move their for just ten pounds a family because they were afraid of being overrun by the Chinese and wanted to keep the country caucasian. However as the father of Australians I understand the outrage against africans muslims and indians who have committed terrible violent crimes against innocent aussies in recent times and in this writer's opinion as a long time resident those type of immigrants should NEVER have been allowed into the country !

Australia would be better off as a republic with a right wing government would have ZERO tolerance for immigrants who commit violent crimes and fast track deport em !

Jan. 6
10:13 pm JST

Unique offenders by country of birth for April 2017 to March 2018; countries where offenders are over-represented are highlighted in bold

% of total offenders. % of population

AUSTRALIA. 71.25. 61.61

NEW ZEALAND. 2.18. 1.68

INDIA. 1.44 3.11

UK & IRELAND. 1.32. 4.23

VIETNAM. 1.11. 1.54

SUDAN. 1.07. 0.16

CHINA. 0.85. 3.02

So people born in Australia and New Zealand are also over-represented in crime in Victoria. Yet no one are saying anything about them. The African gang problem should be addressed but at the same time let's be fair, mate. Mention the fact that lots of Aussies and Kiwis are doing crimes, too.

Jan. 7
07:04 am JST

Yet the racism against Asians is real and quite high in that country.

You exaggerate. Look at the numbers of Asians in Melbourne's streets. Restaurants, businesses, high and conspicuous numbers of Asians in the CBD and various suburbs throughout the city. Chinese, Vietnamese, Koreans are everywhere, any troubles are minor and usually involve some mentally deranged loser mouthing off on public transport or complaints about real estate. Multi-racial couples are commonplace. Looking 'Asian' imo is on its way to being regarded in the same way as looking 'Mediterranean' or 'blonde'.

Jan. 7
07:20 am JST

You have to be extremely careful when interpreting crime statistics. By including or omitting certain data, the numbers can be massaged to show anything you want.

With regards to the data linked above, the first thing that needs to be remembered is that it only includes people who were caught, convicted and who's country of origin could be ascertained. It needs to be remembered that different categories of crime have radically different rates of being solved, let alone securing a conviction. For example, 95% of all burglaries and robberies in the UK are never solved and I can only assume the percentage in Australia is similar. On the other end of the spectrum, common crimes like public disorder or drunkenness will have a conviction rate far closer to 100% since an arrest usually only occurs when a police officer sees the crime happening. Whoever is commiting crimes which are far easier to solve and secure a conviction for will be over-represented in this particular statistic. If the graph were to include an 'origin unknown' category to account for reported but unsolved crimes, it would likely dwarf every other category and would immediately illustrate how incomplete and unreliable the rest of the data is. At most, you can say that native born Australians are over-represented in conviction rates, but without knowing the rates of unsolved crimes, it's impossible to say who is actually committing the most crime.

But what we do not have is the type of crime that they are involved in. Is it relatively petty crime (shoplifting) or more serious (murder, organised crime).

Very true. I tried to check the methodology with the links provided but the only valuable information is that traffic offenses are excluded.

Jan. 7
08:09 am JST

Jan. 7
09:57 am JST

If the graph were to include an 'origin unknown' category to account for reported but unsolved crimes, it would likely dwarf every other category and would immediately illustrate how incomplete and unreliable the rest of the data is

The data is reported crime. Nowhere in the article does it say that any of the cases reported there were solved at all so it could and i'm very sure the graphs do include unsolved crimes that have been reported. Not solved, just reported. Also thank to the law of probability, while we can not determine how many lawbrakers there actually were and who is precisely the one doing the most crime, graphs are a very good depiction to get a rough idea of the situation. That's what all graphs do. They're not 100 percent accurate but they help paint a somewhat reliable and conclusive picture. When somebody would like to do an opinion poll in a country based on a certain event they don't literally ask the entire damn country about it

Jan. 7
11:49 am JST

i'm very sure the graphs do include unsolved crimes

The data clearly does not include unsolved crimes. Just stop and think about it for a minute. How could the police ever determine the specific country of origin of a perpetrator where the crime has never been solved? By definition, the data set only includes cases where an identifiable person has been caught.

Jan. 7
04:56 pm JST

By definition, the data set only includes cases where an identifiable person has been caught

Perhaps you're right but that does not mean that the data is useless. Graphs show a general overview of the situation so it would be safe to assume that most unsolved crimes have also been done by mostly Australians

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