Mondi wrote:If Bettman was truly a smart guy, he'd have brokered a deal a long time ago using collaborative techniques so that both sides walked away from the table happy with the outcome.

*Strangelove shows up dressed as the dread pirate Roberts*

Nice Mondi, no one, including Bettman, could even imagine that POSSIBILITY!

Wow, must be nice to be a super-genius.

Yes, it's truly a shame Bettman isn't Mondi-smart....

Mondi wrote:Gary Bettman is an idiot

*pulls out packet of Iocaine powder....*

One thing I can guarantee you, I'd be less pigheaded and egotistical than either Fehr or Bettman. And from the sidelines, I can tell you that it looks like some humility and collaboration would help this situation greatly.

Your faith in free markets and unrestrained capitalism means you're an owners guy, that's fine for you and other every-man-for-himselfer. Just pile onside with the richest businessmen, they are the smartest and most worthy anyway aren't they SL? But, for the thoughtful folk out there, there is a deal that would make both sides happy and wouldn't require the mindset that one side has the crush the other.

I mean if only everyone was SL-smart, the selfless people would just be dead or at least serving their aggressive Friedmanite masters.

One thing I can guarantee you, I'd be less pigheaded and egotistical than either Fehr or Bettman. And from the sidelines, I can tell you that it looks like some humility and collaboration would help this situation greatly.

Your faith in free markets and unrestrained capitalism means you're an owners guy, that's fine for you and other every-man-for-himselfer. Just pile onside with the richest businessmen, they are the smartest and most worthy anyway aren't they SL? But, for the thoughtful folk out there, there is a deal that would make both sides happy and wouldn't require the mindset that one side has the crush the other.

I mean if only everyone was SL-smart, the selfless people would just be dead or at least serving their aggressive Friedmanite masters.

So, the owners want to cut salaries and the players want more .. nothing selfless there.. and Darwin is right .. The fittest survive.. so both sides hire "gunslingers".. Bettman and Fehr..not nice guys ( Nice guys finish last ).. Bettman didn't put the southern franchises in place but he is trying to keep them going ... Thats the NHL owners decision.. So the only way most of the fringe franchises can keep going is if costs are cut and revenue sharing is raised.. Of course both the owners of those franchises and the players benefit .. If the teams folded owners go broke and less jobs for players.. The only question is how much of a deficit some of these teams will have and for how long and how much the NHL will subsidize them.. The one major cost is players salaries .. which in spite of the salary cap went up in the last few years.. Now is the time to make a long term agreement so that the NHL is a viable growing entity.. That will take a small sacrifice on the players part and on the owners of the "rich" franchises too. More money in the transfer fund and a little less % of revenue for the players.. YEP ITS CALLED FREE ENTERPRISE.. Don't look for any altruism on either side.. its a question of surviving for the money losing franchises and greed on the part of the "rich" owners and the players .. Meantime the gunslingers are shooting ..

I believe in the free market. The problem is that the NHL is not about free market capitalism, it's about collussion.The courts in Europe ruled decades ago that a team cannot claim to own a player they have not signed to a contract. In the NHL they still do that. If any player, regardless of age etc, not under contract was considered a free agent, then we get a free market where players and owners can negotiate the terms on equal footing.

What we have today is a contorted market where the owners collude so that only one team will negotiate with any given player (apart from those considered free agents). This gives the owners an unfair advantage, since the players have very little choice but to accept whatever they are offered. In the real world, if you're not happy with the offer you get, you look for employment elsewhere. In hockey, so far, there's not really been another option for a star player than the NHL.

Anyone believing in free markets should oppose what Bettman and his ilk are doing. The NHL system is actually more related to serfdom or slavery. And yes, they are fortunate slaves, that can lead a far better life than either of us, but they're still not free. The teams own them. Whether they sign that contract or not.

Per wrote:I believe in the free market. The problem is that the NHL is not about free market capitalism, it's about collussion.The courts in Europe ruled decades ago that a team cannot claim to own a player they have not signed to a contract. In the NHL they still do that. If any player, regardless of age etc, not under contract was considered a free agent, then we get a free market where players and owners can negotiate the terms on equal footing.

What we have today is a contorted market where the owners collude so that only one team will negotiate with any given player (apart from those considered free agents). This gives the owners an unfair advantage, since the players have very little choice but to accept whatever they are offered. In the real world, if you're not happy with the offer you get, you look for employment elsewhere. In hockey, so far, there's not really been another option for a star player than the NHL.

Anyone believing in free markets should oppose what Bettman and his ilk are doing. The NHL system is actually more related to serfdom or slavery. And yes, they are fortunate slaves, that can lead a far better life than either of us, but they're still not free. The teams own them. Whether they sign that contract or not.

And the KHL has a cap system too... and a draft.. The other leagues pay peanuts.. Open bidding for players would mean only the very rich clubs.. Rangers, Laffs etc.. would be viable contenders and most of the other teams would fold.. Is that what you want??

Hmm could I have been ahead of the curve, seems like support for Bettman and his saving the league from the greedy players might be wavering?

The fact that the lockout continues is more proof that there is only one solution for Bettman and that's the one where he wins every concession he was after to begin with.

If I'm Fehr I say no and no and still no as long as the players resolve holds there is no deal to be had from Bettman until a gun is at Bettman's head.

That gun is coming soon...

Topper, you figure the southern expansion was in play before Bettman but only three teams were added before Bettman, while Nashville, Columbus, Atlanta and Minnesota are all on his watch, plus the relocation to Dallas, Colorado, Carolina and Phoenix are his too. He may have come in after the move to expand was on the way but it was his mandate to continue it a d its not exactly been aces all around...

Per wrote:I believe in the free market. The problem is that the NHL is not about free market capitalism, it's about collussion.The courts in Europe ruled decades ago that a team cannot claim to own a player they have not signed to a contract. In the NHL they still do that. If any player, regardless of age etc, not under contract was considered a free agent, then we get a free market where players and owners can negotiate the terms on equal footing.

What we have today is a contorted market where the owners collude so that only one team will negotiate with any given player (apart from those considered free agents). This gives the owners an unfair advantage, since the players have very little choice but to accept whatever they are offered. In the real world, if you're not happy with the offer you get, you look for employment elsewhere. In hockey, so far, there's not really been another option for a star player than the NHL.

Anyone believing in free markets should oppose what Bettman and his ilk are doing. The NHL system is actually more related to serfdom or slavery. And yes, they are fortunate slaves, that can lead a far better life than either of us, but they're still not free. The teams own them. Whether they sign that contract or not.

this is just all too clear to me...UKcanuck and Per are hell bent on creating a socialist monster out of the NHL...we can call it the ESHL(European Socialist Hockey League)...these two are out for world domination...hide your assets capitalists as its all happening before our eyes on this board...

Per wrote:I believe in the free market. The problem is that the NHL is not about free market capitalism, it's about collussion.The courts in Europe ruled decades ago that a team cannot claim to own a player they have not signed to a contract. In the NHL they still do that. If any player, regardless of age etc, not under contract was considered a free agent, then we get a free market where players and owners can negotiate the terms on equal footing.

What we have today is a contorted market where the owners collude so that only one team will negotiate with any given player (apart from those considered free agents). This gives the owners an unfair advantage, since the players have very little choice but to accept whatever they are offered. In the real world, if you're not happy with the offer you get, you look for employment elsewhere. In hockey, so far, there's not really been another option for a star player than the NHL.

Anyone believing in free markets should oppose what Bettman and his ilk are doing. The NHL system is actually more related to serfdom or slavery. And yes, they are fortunate slaves, that can lead a far better life than either of us, but they're still not free. The teams own them. Whether they sign that contract or not.

And the KHL has a cap system too... and a draft.. The other leagues pay peanuts.. Open bidding for players would mean only the very rich clubs.. Rangers, Laffs etc.. would be viable contenders and most of the other teams would fold.. Is that what you want??

actually the KHL cap is about 40 + million and the NHL wants what 50 something? sounds like if they get what they want the NHL will not necessarily be where you will find ALL the best players...Do you want a stanley cup championship that may or may not be the best team in the world??

Per wrote:I believe in the free market. The problem is that the NHL is not about free market capitalism, it's about collussion.

We keep using the word "collusion" improperly. The NHL is made up of 1 league, with 30 franchises. The NHL itself is a monopolistic structure. Collusion can only exist in an oligopoly. It would be akin to accusing all of the MacDonalds franchises of "fixing" the wages of employees at minimum wage, which is just a company policy (probably unwritten too).

The free market in hockey exists, where players are allowed to play in any league in the world that they choose. Most just happen to choose the one with the highest paying jobs.

Collusion would be if all the leagues got together to "fix" wages. The SEL and KHL would laugh at such an attempt.

ukcanuck wrote:actually the KHL cap is about 40 + million and the NHL wants what 50 something? sounds like if they get what they want the NHL will not necessarily be where you will find ALL the best players...Do you want a stanley cup championship that may or may not be the best team in the world??

I could care less. If other countries can afford to pay players more that we do here, then that competition is good for the players, and that is the leverage they need to have ownership pay more. If an owner in Omsk want to pay the Columbus Blue Jackets players more than Columbus wants to pay them, then let's axe a team in the NHL, and let them play in the KHL.

After this strike is over, and as the KHL pays players more, the owners will come to their own "fiscal cliff". The NHL has been all about maximizing revenue, but if other leagues start to compete for players, the NHL might finally be about maximizing profits, which is what all businesses are supposed to be about. If/when this occurs, the teams that are costing the league $$ may finally get flushed or moved. The NHL will end up stronger if this happens.

ukcanuck wrote:actually the KHL cap is about 40 + million and the NHL wants what 50 something? sounds like if they get what they want the NHL will not necessarily be where you will find ALL the best players...Do you want a stanley cup championship that may or may not be the best team in the world??

I could care less. If other countries can afford to pay players more that we do here, then that competition is good for the players, and that is the leverage they need to have ownership pay more. If an owner in Omsk want to pay the Columbus Blue Jackets players more than Columbus wants to pay them, then let's axe a team in the NHL, and let them play in the KHL.

After this strike is over, and as the KHL pays players more, the owners will come to their own "fiscal cliff". The NHL has been all about maximizing revenue, but if other leagues start to compete for players, the NHL might finally be about maximizing profits, which is what all businesses are supposed to be about. If/when this occurs, the teams that are costing the league $$ may finally get flushed or moved. The NHL will end up stronger if this happens.

I don't care either, thats why I don't see the logical reason why there should be an artificial drag on salaries in the first place, let it all sink or swim on its own merit period, players, teams, leagues, owners, etc

One could argue that it's the players who are pushing for "free markets and unrestrained capitalism" in this story.

Mondi wrote:But, for the thoughtful folk out there, there is a deal that would make both sides happy and wouldn't require the mindset that one side has the crush the other.

Don't mistake the game-faces on the gamers for must-crush mindsets.

Neither side is out to crush the other in this go-around, as they were last lockout.

So you don't count me among the "thoughtful folk" in regards to a potential deal?

Ummmm a few days ago I posted this:

Here is what Fehr will do within a few days imo: Accept the – 50-50 split + linkage + make whole + revenue-sharing + 5% max on back-diving contracts - that the owners have on the table. Just say ‘no’ to the other proposed player contract rules. Drop his silly “who covers the cost of the lockout?” BS.

The owners will sign on the dotted line.

Actually he’ll probably try for more bucks in the ‘make whole’ package, but therein lies the deal.

Suck on THAT Vizzini!

And sorry, but Bettman is at least a thousand times smarter than you, and a much better negotiator....

Mondi wrote:I mean if only everyone was SL-smart, the selfless people would just be dead or at least serving their aggressive Friedmanite masters.

Nah, the Great Strangelove is a friend to the selfless!

C'MON!!!!

(umm you're not one of 'em)

As for Friedman:

"Friedman was The Great Liberator... any honest Democrat will admit that we are now all Friedmanites."

- Lawrence Summers former President of Harvard, US Secretary of Treasury, Director of the US Economic Council, and noted hard-core US Democrat Party member

the Dogsalmon wrote:this is just all too clear to me...UKcanuck and Per are hell bent on creating a socialist monster out of the NHL...we can call it the ESHL(European Socialist Hockey League)...these two are out for world domination...hide your assets capitalists as its all happening before our eyes on this board...

Er... No. Did you read my post?

It's quite the opposite; I would like to introduce free market capitalism to the NHL, rather than the current communist era Soviet style central planning system they have.