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Topic: How Jewish was Jesus? (Read 10105 times)

Jesus lived, taught, and died as a Jew. He defined himself and his Jewishness in much the same way as today's Torah-observant Jews. He conducted himself as a devout rabbi and Pharisee. He wore a Jewish head covering, prayed in the Hebrew language, ate only kosher food, honored the Sabbath, had the mezuzah parchment on the doorposts of his home, lit a Chanukah menorah, wore the tzitzit-fringes, donned telfillin daily, wave an esrog and lulav on Sukkot, ate matzo on Passover, and studied the Torah regularly. He enjoyed the selfsame relationship with God shared by all Jews.

Jesus lived, taught, and died as a Jew. He defined himself and his Jewishness in much the same way as today's Torah-observant Jews. He conducted himself as a devout rabbi and Pharisee. He wore a Jewish head covering, prayed in the Hebrew language, ate only kosher food, honored the Sabbath, had the mezuzah parchment on the doorposts of his home, lit a Chanukah menorah, wore the tzitzit-fringes, donned telfillin daily, wave an esrog and lulav on Sukkot, ate matzo on Passover, and studied the Torah regularly. He enjoyed the selfsame relationship with God shared by all Jews.

Depends on who you ask. The pharisees didn't like him because he broke their rules. The sadducees didn't like him because he was a trouble maker. The essenes wouldn't have liked him because he had the nerve to say that you could live in society and have sex and enjoy yourself and still be saved. Seems like lots of Jews wouldn't have thought him very Jewish/Judaistic according to their own ideas about what a "real Jew" should be. On the other hand, he was born a Jew, raised in a Jewish society, and said he came to preach to Israel. Seems fairly Jewish to me.

Who a Jew is and in virtue of what has basically been thought about by every great and small mind in Western history. I don't think you are going to get far here except into nonsense you can just google.

He taught in the temples, he attended Jewish services in the temples - he was circumcised, his mother was Jewish, Joseph was Jewish, the 12 apostles were Jewish, he kept the Sabbath, recognized the Sabbath, and only bumped head with the pharisees on the radicalness they imposed on the Sabbath.

He fulfilled Jewish prophecy. He even stated "salvation comes from the Jews".

Depends on who you ask. The pharisees didn't like him because he broke their rules. The sadducees didn't like him because he was a trouble maker. The essenes wouldn't have liked him because he had the nerve to say that you could live in society and have sex and enjoy yourself and still be saved. Seems like lots of Jews wouldn't have thought him very Jewish/Judaistic according to their own ideas about what a "real Jew" should be. On the other hand, he was born a Jew, raised in a Jewish society, and said he came to preach to Israel. Seems fairly Jewish to me.

He taught in the temples, he attended Jewish services in the temples - he was circumcised, his mother was Jewish, Joseph was Jewish, the 12 apostles were Jewish, he kept the Sabbath, recognized the Sabbath, and only bumped head with the pharisees on the radicalness they imposed on the Sabbath.

He fulfilled Jewish prophecy. He even stated "salvation comes from the Jews".

So what type of Jew would you say He was?Pharisee, Sadducee, Essene?From what school of thought did he came?

He taught in the temples, he attended Jewish services in the temples - he was circumcised, his mother was Jewish, Joseph was Jewish, the 12 apostles were Jewish, he kept the Sabbath, recognized the Sabbath, and only bumped head with the pharisees on the radicalness they imposed on the Sabbath.

He fulfilled Jewish prophecy. He even stated "salvation comes from the Jews".

So what type of Jew would you say He was?Pharisee, Sadducee, Ebionite?From what school of thought did he came?

He taught in the temples, he attended Jewish services in the temples - he was circumcised, his mother was Jewish, Joseph was Jewish, the 12 apostles were Jewish, he kept the Sabbath, recognized the Sabbath, and only bumped head with the pharisees on the radicalness they imposed on the Sabbath.

He fulfilled Jewish prophecy. He even stated "salvation comes from the Jews".

So what type of Jew would you say He was?Pharisee, Sadducee, Ebionite?From what school of thought did he came?

You have to remember that the Pharisees, the Sadducees and all the others were political and religious parties. Not all jews belonged to one specific group.

Logged

Do not be cast down over the struggle - the Lord loves a brave warrior. The Lord loves the soul that is valiant.

He taught in the temples, he attended Jewish services in the temples - he was circumcised, his mother was Jewish, Joseph was Jewish, the 12 apostles were Jewish, he kept the Sabbath, recognized the Sabbath, and only bumped head with the pharisees on the radicalness they imposed on the Sabbath.

He fulfilled Jewish prophecy. He even stated "salvation comes from the Jews".

So what type of Jew would you say He was?Pharisee, Sadducee, Ebionite?From what school of thought did he came?

You have to remember that the Pharisees, the Sadducees and all the others were political and religious parties. Not all jews belonged to one specific group.

How do you know this? And wouldn't that exclude them from partaking in the religious life of that time?

Depends on who you ask. The pharisees didn't like him because he broke their rules. The sadducees didn't like him because he was a trouble maker. The essenes wouldn't have liked him because he had the nerve to say that you could live in society and have sex and enjoy yourself and still be saved. Seems like lots of Jews wouldn't have thought him very Jewish/Judaistic according to their own ideas about what a "real Jew" should be. On the other hand, he was born a Jew, raised in a Jewish society, and said he came to preach to Israel. Seems fairly Jewish to me.

Depends on who you ask. The pharisees didn't like him because he broke their rules. The sadducees didn't like him because he was a trouble maker. The essenes wouldn't have liked him because he had the nerve to say that you could live in society and have sex and enjoy yourself and still be saved. Seems like lots of Jews wouldn't have thought him very Jewish/Judaistic according to their own ideas about what a "real Jew" should be. On the other hand, he was born a Jew, raised in a Jewish society, and said he came to preach to Israel. Seems fairly Jewish to me.

So how would you describe his Jewish belongness?

To paraphrase many of my Jewish friends (say this in the stereotypical NY Jew accent with your arms out and palms up while shrugging): "He's a Jew!"

Logged

"Hearing a nun's confession is like being stoned to death with popcorn." --Abp. Fulton Sheen

Depends on who you ask. The pharisees didn't like him because he broke their rules. The sadducees didn't like him because he was a trouble maker. The essenes wouldn't have liked him because he had the nerve to say that you could live in society and have sex and enjoy yourself and still be saved. Seems like lots of Jews wouldn't have thought him very Jewish/Judaistic according to their own ideas about what a "real Jew" should be. On the other hand, he was born a Jew, raised in a Jewish society, and said he came to preach to Israel. Seems fairly Jewish to me.

So how would you describe his Jewish belongness?

To paraphrase many of my Jewish friends (say this in the stereotypical NY Jew accent with your arms out and palms up while shrugging): "He's a Jew!"

Depends on who you ask. The pharisees didn't like him because he broke their rules. The sadducees didn't like him because he was a trouble maker. The essenes wouldn't have liked him because he had the nerve to say that you could live in society and have sex and enjoy yourself and still be saved. Seems like lots of Jews wouldn't have thought him very Jewish/Judaistic according to their own ideas about what a "real Jew" should be. On the other hand, he was born a Jew, raised in a Jewish society, and said he came to preach to Israel. Seems fairly Jewish to me.

So how would you describe his Jewish belongness?

To paraphrase many of my Jewish friends (say this in the stereotypical NY Jew accent with your arms out and palms up while shrugging): "He's a Jew!"

How?

I really have no idea how to answer this anymore clearly. You seem to want to put Jesus in some category like Pharisee or Saducee like thsoe were the only options. Most Jews in his day were just "Jews," that is, people of the Covenant. They tried their best (or worst) to follow the Law as they were taught it by various teachers and that was it.

Logged

"Hearing a nun's confession is like being stoned to death with popcorn." --Abp. Fulton Sheen

He taught in the temples, he attended Jewish services in the temples - he was circumcised, his mother was Jewish, Joseph was Jewish, the 12 apostles were Jewish, he kept the Sabbath, recognized the Sabbath, and only bumped head with the pharisees on the radicalness they imposed on the Sabbath.

He fulfilled Jewish prophecy. He even stated "salvation comes from the Jews".

So what type of Jew would you say He was?Pharisee, Sadducee, Ebionite?From what school of thought did he came?

You have to remember that the Pharisees, the Sadducees and all the others were political and religious parties. Not all jews belonged to one specific group.

How do you know this? And wouldn't that exclude them from partaking in the religious life of that time?

You only have to read the bible. All the groups, whith whom Jesus argues, are described as parties, outside the general population.

Secondly, it only makes sense. There have never been a society, where the whole population were directly involved in religious or political organizations.

Logged

Do not be cast down over the struggle - the Lord loves a brave warrior. The Lord loves the soul that is valiant.

Depends on who you ask. The pharisees didn't like him because he broke their rules. The sadducees didn't like him because he was a trouble maker. The essenes wouldn't have liked him because he had the nerve to say that you could live in society and have sex and enjoy yourself and still be saved. Seems like lots of Jews wouldn't have thought him very Jewish/Judaistic according to their own ideas about what a "real Jew" should be. On the other hand, he was born a Jew, raised in a Jewish society, and said he came to preach to Israel. Seems fairly Jewish to me.

So how would you describe his Jewish belongness?

To paraphrase many of my Jewish friends (say this in the stereotypical NY Jew accent with your arms out and palms up while shrugging): "He's a Jew!"

How?

I really have no idea how to answer this anymore clearly. You seem to want to put Jesus in some category like Pharisee or Saducee like thsoe were the only options. Most Jews in his day were just "Jews," that is, people of the Covenant. They tried their best (or worst) to follow the Law as they were taught it by various teachers and that was it.

This, definately this.

Logged

Do not be cast down over the struggle - the Lord loves a brave warrior. The Lord loves the soul that is valiant.

He taught in the temples, he attended Jewish services in the temples - he was circumcised, his mother was Jewish, Joseph was Jewish, the 12 apostles were Jewish, he kept the Sabbath, recognized the Sabbath, and only bumped head with the pharisees on the radicalness they imposed on the Sabbath.

He fulfilled Jewish prophecy. He even stated "salvation comes from the Jews".

So what type of Jew would you say He was?Pharisee, Sadducee, Ebionite?From what school of thought did he came?

You have to remember that the Pharisees, the Sadducees and all the others were political and religious parties. Not all jews belonged to one specific group.

How do you know this? And wouldn't that exclude them from partaking in the religious life of that time?

You only have to read the bible. All the groups, whith whom Jesus argues, are described as parties, outside the general population.

Secondly, it only makes sense. There have never been a society, where the whole population were directly involved in religious or political organizations.

And?Some might also have nothing on the Mosaic religion.Some could have been pagans or atheists.In demography there is no totaliarism.

He taught in the temples, he attended Jewish services in the temples - he was circumcised, his mother was Jewish, Joseph was Jewish, the 12 apostles were Jewish, he kept the Sabbath, recognized the Sabbath, and only bumped head with the pharisees on the radicalness they imposed on the Sabbath.

He fulfilled Jewish prophecy. He even stated "salvation comes from the Jews".

So what type of Jew would you say He was?Pharisee, Sadducee, Ebionite?From what school of thought did he came?

You have to remember that the Pharisees, the Sadducees and all the others were political and religious parties. Not all jews belonged to one specific group.

How do you know this? And wouldn't that exclude them from partaking in the religious life of that time?

You only have to read the bible. All the groups, whith whom Jesus argues, are described as parties, outside the general population.

Secondly, it only makes sense. There have never been a society, where the whole population were directly involved in religious or political organizations.

And?Some might also have nothing on the Mosaic religion.Some could have been pagans or atheists.In demography there is no totaliarism.

You asked me how I could know that Jesus was not part of any of the above mentioned groups and I gave you and answer. Why are you replying by stating what I have already said? As Schultz said, most of the people were probably just jews. Nothing more, nothing less.

« Last Edit: January 22, 2013, 03:31:50 PM by Ansgar »

Logged

Do not be cast down over the struggle - the Lord loves a brave warrior. The Lord loves the soul that is valiant.

Depends on who you ask. The pharisees didn't like him because he broke their rules. The sadducees didn't like him because he was a trouble maker. The essenes wouldn't have liked him because he had the nerve to say that you could live in society and have sex and enjoy yourself and still be saved. Seems like lots of Jews wouldn't have thought him very Jewish/Judaistic according to their own ideas about what a "real Jew" should be. On the other hand, he was born a Jew, raised in a Jewish society, and said he came to preach to Israel. Seems fairly Jewish to me.

So how would you describe his Jewish belongness?

To paraphrase many of my Jewish friends (say this in the stereotypical NY Jew accent with your arms out and palms up while shrugging): "He's a Jew!"

How?

I really have no idea how to answer this anymore clearly. You seem to want to put Jesus in some category like Pharisee or Saducee like thsoe were the only options. Most Jews in his day were just "Jews," that is, people of the Covenant. They tried their best (or worst) to follow the Law as they were taught it by various teachers and that was it.

I bet there were non-religious Jews on his days also, but I don't think you would say the same for Jesus.

Jews, people of the Covenant?How could they be people of the covenant and follow the Law by themselves?They could not follow the Law and the Covenant without bondange to religion, religious rituals, religious mediators, religious buildings that are all contained , interconnected and required in the Law and the Covenant.

He taught in the temples, he attended Jewish services in the temples - he was circumcised, his mother was Jewish, Joseph was Jewish, the 12 apostles were Jewish, he kept the Sabbath, recognized the Sabbath, and only bumped head with the pharisees on the radicalness they imposed on the Sabbath.

He fulfilled Jewish prophecy. He even stated "salvation comes from the Jews".

So what type of Jew would you say He was?Pharisee, Sadducee, Ebionite?From what school of thought did he came?

You have to remember that the Pharisees, the Sadducees and all the others were political and religious parties. Not all jews belonged to one specific group.

How do you know this? And wouldn't that exclude them from partaking in the religious life of that time?

You only have to read the bible. All the groups, whith whom Jesus argues, are described as parties, outside the general population.

Secondly, it only makes sense. There have never been a society, where the whole population were directly involved in religious or political organizations.

And?Some might also have nothing on the Mosaic religion.Some could have been pagans or atheists.In demography there is no totaliarism.

You asked me how I could know that Jesus was not part of any of the above mentioned groups and I gave you and answer. Why are you replying by stating what I have already said? As Schultz said, most of the people were probably just jews. Nothing more, nothing less.

Jesus was a religious Jew not an atheist Jew nor a pagan one, or do you disagree with this statement?

In the first century one could not have been a Jew of the covenant without bonding to the religious authorities of those times.You would need the Levitical/Aaronic priesthood to mediate and offer sacrifices to God and perform the religion of the Old Testament and sustain the worship of the Old Testament.

In the first century one could not have been a Jew of the covenant without bonding to the religious authorities of those times.You would need the Levitical/Aaronic priesthood to mediate and offer sacrifices to God and perform the religion of the Old Testament and sustain the worship of the Old Testament.

Our Lord never offered sacrifice for himself (only Luke mentions a pair of turtledoves brought by his parents when he was circumcised). He taught in the Temple and in the synagogues. The only religious figure he spoke highly of was his cousin, John, whose baptism he received.

He taught in the temples, he attended Jewish services in the temples - he was circumcised, his mother was Jewish, Joseph was Jewish, the 12 apostles were Jewish, he kept the Sabbath, recognized the Sabbath, and only bumped head with the pharisees on the radicalness they imposed on the Sabbath.

He fulfilled Jewish prophecy. He even stated "salvation comes from the Jews".

It is said he broke the sabbath, he did not show up on the Jewish holidays and others as such. How do we know he was a Jew?His circumcision and other Jewish rituals as such had nothing to do with his(human) will and has always interfere with the Jewish authorities of that time.His philosophy was beyond the narrow Jewish one and had incorporated the wide philosophy of all religions and a philosophy of liberty.We can't really know exactly what he said, the first gospel was written after at least 30 years after his death by Mark who was an indirect witness the scholars say.And the one who wrote in his Gospel that part was apparently not present at the conversation Jesus had when he said this , because all the apostles were gone when he spoke with the Samaritan woman.

Jesus was a Jew that God loved. Jesus was a Jew that loved God. Jesus was is a God that loved Jews.

....fixed that for you.

According to Jewish law, a child born to a Jewish mother (which the Virgin Mary was) or an adult who has converted to Judaism is considered a Jew; one does not have to reaffirm their Jewishness or practice any of the laws of the Torah to be Jewish.

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Conquer evil men by your gentle kindness, and make zealous men wonder at your goodness. Put the lover of legality to shame by your compassion. With the afflicted be afflicted in mind. Love all men, but keep distant from all men.—St. Isaac of Syria

Jesus was a Jew that God loved. Jesus was a Jew that loved God. Jesus was is a God that loved Jews.

....fixed that for you.

According to Jewish law, a child born to a Jewish mother (which the Virgin Mary was) or an adult who has converted to Judaism is considered a Jew; one does not have to reaffirm their Jewishness or practice any of the laws of the Torah to be Jewish.

Are you saying Jesus did not practice the laws of the Torah?

Yet he was a religious Jew.What type of religion did he had?Was he a Rabbi also?Doesn't a Rabbi need special appointing?How would he and his followers look like and how would they have worship?

Jesus was a Jew that God loved. Jesus was a Jew that loved God. Jesus was is a God that loved Jews.

....fixed that for you.

According to Jewish law, a child born to a Jewish mother (which the Virgin Mary was) or an adult who has converted to Judaism is considered a Jew; one does not have to reaffirm their Jewishness or practice any of the laws of the Torah to be Jewish.

Are you saying Jesus did not practice the laws of the Torah?

Yet he was a religious Jew.What type of religion did he had?Was he a Rabbi also?Doesn't a Rabbi need special appointing?How would he and his followers look like and how would they have worship?

Why does it matter? The degree of His Jewishness....has little to do with his ministry. Don't look at what He was....look to what He taught.

Logged

Conquer evil men by your gentle kindness, and make zealous men wonder at your goodness. Put the lover of legality to shame by your compassion. With the afflicted be afflicted in mind. Love all men, but keep distant from all men.—St. Isaac of Syria

Jesus was a Jew that God loved. Jesus was a Jew that loved God. Jesus was is a God that loved Jews.

....fixed that for you.

According to Jewish law, a child born to a Jewish mother (which the Virgin Mary was) or an adult who has converted to Judaism is considered a Jew; one does not have to reaffirm their Jewishness or practice any of the laws of the Torah to be Jewish.

Are you saying Jesus did not practice the laws of the Torah?

Yet he was a religious Jew.What type of religion did he had?Was he a Rabbi also?Doesn't a Rabbi need special appointing?How would he and his followers look like and how would they have worship?

Why does it matter? The degree of His Jewishness....has little to do with his ministry. Don't look at what He was....look to what He taught.

It matters enormously , at least from my pov and for me, to get a better picture on how the historical Jesus may have looked alike.

He taught in the temples, he attended Jewish services in the temples - he was circumcised, his mother was Jewish, Joseph was Jewish, the 12 apostles were Jewish, he kept the Sabbath, recognized the Sabbath, and only bumped head with the pharisees on the radicalness they imposed on the Sabbath.

He fulfilled Jewish prophecy. He even stated "salvation comes from the Jews".

So what type of Jew would you say He was?Pharisee, Sadducee, Ebionite?From what school of thought did he came?

You have to remember that the Pharisees, the Sadducees and all the others were political and religious parties. Not all jews belonged to one specific group.

How do you know this? And wouldn't that exclude them from partaking in the religious life of that time?

You only have to read the bible. All the groups, whith whom Jesus argues, are described as parties, outside the general population.

Secondly, it only makes sense. There have never been a society, where the whole population were directly involved in religious or political organizations.

And?Some might also have nothing on the Mosaic religion.Some could have been pagans or atheists.In demography there is no totaliarism.

You asked me how I could know that Jesus was not part of any of the above mentioned groups and I gave you and answer. Why are you replying by stating what I have already said? As Schultz said, most of the people were probably just jews. Nothing more, nothing less.

Jesus was a religious Jew not an atheist Jew nor a pagan one, or do you disagree with this statement?

In the first century one could not have been a Jew of the covenant without bonding to the religious authorities of those times.You would need the Levitical/Aaronic priesthood to mediate and offer sacrifices to God and perform the religion of the Old Testament and sustain the worship of the Old Testament.

Nobody here has ever claimed that all jews at that time were observant. The term "Jew" can refer both to the adherents of the jewish religion as well as the jewish people, who are defined as those who are born of a jewish mother (at least as far as I know).

Logged

Do not be cast down over the struggle - the Lord loves a brave warrior. The Lord loves the soul that is valiant.

Jesus was a Jew that God loved. Jesus was a Jew that loved God. Jesus was is a God that loved Jews.

....fixed that for you.

According to Jewish law, a child born to a Jewish mother (which the Virgin Mary was) or an adult who has converted to Judaism is considered a Jew; one does not have to reaffirm their Jewishness or practice any of the laws of the Torah to be Jewish.

Are you saying Jesus did not practice the laws of the Torah?

Yet he was a religious Jew.What type of religion did he had?Was he a Rabbi also?Doesn't a Rabbi need special appointing?How would he and his followers look like and how would they have worship?

Why does it matter? The degree of His Jewishness....has little to do with his ministry. Don't look at what He was....look to what He taught.

It matters enormously , at least from my pov and for me, to get a better picture on how the historical Jesus may have looked alike.

Here is a recontructed image, made by scientists, of how an average man from that area, at the time of Christ could have looked like.

« Last Edit: January 22, 2013, 04:23:55 PM by Ansgar »

Logged

Do not be cast down over the struggle - the Lord loves a brave warrior. The Lord loves the soul that is valiant.

Jesus was a Jew that God loved. Jesus was a Jew that loved God. Jesus was is a God that loved Jews.

....fixed that for you.

According to Jewish law, a child born to a Jewish mother (which the Virgin Mary was) or an adult who has converted to Judaism is considered a Jew; one does not have to reaffirm their Jewishness or practice any of the laws of the Torah to be Jewish.

Are you saying Jesus did not practice the laws of the Torah?

Yet he was a religious Jew.What type of religion did he had?Was he a Rabbi also?Doesn't a Rabbi need special appointing?How would he and his followers look like and how would they have worship?

Why does it matter? The degree of His Jewishness....has little to do with his ministry. Don't look at what He was....look to what He taught.

What he taught seems to comprise more greek, buddhist, hindus philosophy than rabbinical judaism philosophy and OT dubiousness.