Not to burst your bubble here, but have you looked at the company you partnered with for these minis?

I don't post in my own review threads, as people should feel entitled to tell me I'm utterly full of crap, vent and have their say unimpeded by anything that I might have to say about it.

But it seems you aren't commenting on the review, rather, you are commenting on Erik Mona's comments -- so that's a different matter.

First, you are wrong: Wizkids has sold their Clix and Mage Knight line in both blind and see through starters, booster packs with 6-8 figures, 4 pack boosters, 2 packs, and one packs over the years.

Right now, they are clearly emphasizing single blind boxes in their Clix lines for reasons of making minis available at an accessible price point to teens.

And yes, Erik Mona is aware of Wizkids history and business practices. To be blunt, he's probably forgotten more about the gaming industry than you'll ever know. Moreover, he's posting in a thread on ENWorld to elucidate, clarify and inform all of us.

Everyone on ENWorld benefits when representatives of game manufacturers post here. Everyone on ENWorld loses out when they choose not to, for fear of getting drawn into a bitch session with cranky fans. You'll notice that it has been a LONG TIME since executives from WotC posted on ENWorld. That is not an accident.

My point: Just because you may disagree with Paizo's business decisions doesn't entitle you to be rude in how you express that displeasure. Don't wreck the place for the rest of us, please.

But if you want this to work ...

Paizo is the licensor; NECA/Wizkids is the manufacturer.

As for "working out" -- you did read the part above where the product line just sold out, right?

It may not be working out the way you want it to -- but it appears to be "working out" just fine, thank-you-very-much.

You are all about you; however, the product is not all about you. It's all about the marketplace. And you aren't the marketplace.

Try to be more fair in your criticisms and remember to separate the two.

Is there a gallery of production minis on Paizo's site? If not, why not?

We've been posting production images on the blog every Friday for the last two months or so. We'd planned to swap in those images on the main product page this week, but the office was completely shuttered due to Seattle's snow and ice emergency over the last week, so that hasn't happened yet. As someone mentioned, you can see all of the images quite nicely on pathfinderminis.com. We'll get them on our site shortly.

I don't post in my own review threads, as people should feel entitled to tell me I'm utterly full of crap, vent and have their say unimpeded by anything that I might have to say about it.

But it seems you aren't commenting on the review, rather, you are commenting on Erik Mona's comments -- so that's a different matter.

First, you are wrong: Wizkids has sold their Clix and Mage Knight line in both blind and see through starters, booster packs with 6-8 figures, 4 pack boosters, 2 packs, and one packs over the years.

Right now, they are clearly emphasizing single blind boxes in their Clix lines for reasons of making minis available at an accessible price point to teens.

And yes, Erik Mona is aware of Wizkids history and business practices. To be blunt, he's probably forgotten more about the gaming industry than you'll ever know. Moreover, he's posting in a thread on ENWorld to elucidate, clarify and inform all of us.

Everyone on ENWorld benefits when representatives of game manufacturers post here. Everyone on ENWorld loses out when they choose not to, for fear of getting drawn into a bitch session with cranky fans. You'll notice that it has been a LONG TIME since executives from WotC posted on ENWorld. That is not an accident.

My point: Just because you may disagree with Paizo's business decisions doesn't entitle you to be rude in how you express that displeasure. Don't wreck the place for the rest of us, please.

Paizo is the licensor; NECA/Wizkids is the manufacturer.

As for "working out" -- you did read the part above where the product line just sold out, right?

It may not be working out the way you want it to -- but it appears to be "working out" just fine, thank-you-very-much.

You are all about you; however, the product is not all about you. It's all about the marketplace. And you aren't the marketplace.

Try to be more fair in your criticisms and remember to separate the two.

I was not being rude. What I was is surprised that in response to a review that is given (on a good product, I make no bones about that) that mentions the waste of packing material, and a thread that gets multiple comments on that, that Erik comes here and acts surprised. Unless they never thought to ask WizKids about the packaging at all, they had to have signed off on the design at least once (as it uses Paizo IP in the logo designs). Even he admits it's a big pile, in a way that almost sounds like, "Wow, more than I was expecting." That may not have been his intent, but it sounded like it.

No more than my intent was just to point out that that has been the preferred method pf packing singles for WizKids since day one. Singles. This is not a starter set or theme pack, so the other standard methods of WizKids packing does not apply here. If they still use that much packing on the theme sets when they come out, then we have a whole different conversation to have. But for now it is singles, and using the same packing methods as Clix for no good apparent reason.

Second note on this, single Clix cost more than a single Pathfinder mini because the Clix have multiple moving parts. Yet these are almost the same cost, and I am pretty sure that Pathfinder as a license does not get as much as DC or Marvel. So why the same cost?

And yes, I was aware they sold out. So did the first run of DDM. Long term, however, that model became unsustainable. It was short term profit, but not necessarily long term value, and I do give Paizo credit for trying to build long term value for both the company and its customers. But right now it looks like they are doing the exact same path as DDM, except less minis at a higher cost (as pointed out by others here) and we all know how DDM ended for WotC. Paizo might use similar models, but they overcame D&D/WotC in sales by doing different things with that model. So, why would they follow almost the same path as WotC in minis?

What I am saying is, if they have a different model planned, it would be good to use it sooner than later, because long term now, it looks very iffy.

Not to burst your bubble here, but have you looked at the company you partnered with for these minis? They do good sculpts, but their packaging strategy has been pretty much that since day one.

I don't understand why you are being rude to me when I'm just trying to add additional information.

As Robert has already posted, WizKids has numerous packaging methods, from single boosters to multi-figure blind boosters (in several different formats) to visible sets (in tubes, in flat packs, etc.). When we signed our license with them, the pack-out option on the minis had not been set, and was not a major part of our negotiations in any event.

Originally Posted by OpsKT

No offense, but how could you not know that WizKids loves to use oil and murder trees? Okay, maybe not WizKids, but the people they contract with in China sure do. And probably charge more for it.

I agree that a less wasteful packaging solution would be ideal, but at a certain point little toy men made out of oil is already an extravagant waste in the eyes of a lot of people.

My primary concern is that the miniatures look cool, are fairly priced, and represent the Pathfinder brand well. Though they are certainly more expensive than many consumers would want, I think WizKids delivered ably on all three of those issues.

How they package their product, and what formats they use, is more an area of their expertise. It's important to know that it's a big turn-off for people, and it's something we'll be discussing as we move forward with the line, but our general business practice is to partner with established experts in the field, and trust them in their areas of expertise.

Originally Posted by OpsKT

I know the long standing theory on pre-painted minis is Quality, Cheap, Non-Random, pick 2 but Paizo is a company based on figuring out new ways to do established business models. Maybe a new model is what this needs.

Frankly, selling these things one at a time IS a new model, at least for fantasy RPG miniatures. Whether or not it's the best model is for the consumers and the market to decide, and we're still REALLY early in that process to conclude anything definitive. Rest assured that we will always be trying to find better ways to do things, and push prepainted minis in new and exciting directions. The Frost Giant with swappable weapons is one example of this, and there will be plenty more as time goes on.

Originally Posted by OpsKT

Have you considered semi-random, pre-painted, quality, and cheap? Each blister is packed random (of 2-3 minis, based on size) in a blister on a card. Odds are out of 2-3 minis, at least one in every pack would be one that someone wants.

I'm relatively certain WizKids has thought of all kinds of different distribution methods for miniatures. The product you propose would certainly have a higher price point than the current model, which might result in fewer impulse purchases. I know WizKids has had a lot of luck with the single-minis boosters for HeroClix and various licensed properties, so I assume their interest in using this method for the Pathfinder minis is based on practical market experience. In fact, I know this.

Originally Posted by OpsKT

Or have you considered non-random, on a blister and card, and unpainted. Some of us still like to paint, and like plastic because it's less likely to break. I remember a lot of players in the LGS saying that they wished Wizards would offer the unpainted minis separate like in the Board Games, cause they could paint them themselves. Or even just use them unpainted and color them with imagination.

No, we haven't considered this. We have a great relationship with Reaper Miniatures, who make beautiful, finely detailed metal Pathfinder miniatures for those who prefer painting miniatures. I suspect the per-unit cost on an unpainted plastic mini would be comparable to an unpainted metal miniature, but the metal miniature would likely have much finer detail, and would appeal to a market segment that currently exists and is buying miniatures. Games Workshop aside, there is not a proven market for unpainted plastic miniatures to the extent that WizKids (and Paizo) is shooting for with Pathfinder Battles, so I'm afraid this idea is a non-starter.

Originally Posted by OpsKT

Just some ideas. But if you want this to work, you have to challenge the established model, otherwise you are just doing DDM v2.0 at more cost. When many of us just don't have the money to do it.

Well, it's early yet, but I'd say that the line is already working. There are some details that require more fine-tuning (such as the waste issue discussed in Robert's review), but I'm pleased with the quality of the sculpts and the paint jobs, and I think future sets are only going to get better.

In the coming days, we'll be announcing details on the next set and the first Encounter Pack of nonrandom miniatures. The latter will likely appeal to gamers who feel the price on randoms is too expensive (though I also think those customers may be best served buying singles that they want from resellers or their FLGS).

We'll keep trying to improve Pathfinder Battles with every release. So far, while there is definitely room for improvement here and there, I think we're off to a remarkably good start.

I don't understand why you are being rude to me when I'm just trying to add additional information.

I was not being rude. I fear for the community if the phrase, "Sorry to burst your bubble." is considered being rude. Perhaps the West Coast is the most friendly work environment in the world, but I have had jobs where if they shot down the idea with JUST that phrase, it was a good day.

Trust me, when I'm being rude, people will know. There would also be a lot of in place of my words. I'm not a subtle guy.

Thank you for responding to the other points. At least some other ideas were considered, and the future plans do seem pretty different. Perhaps you will do better than DDM, perhaps not. Perhaps the market for that kind of product is too limited.

No one really knows. Even marketing projections are little more than educated guesses.

I'm just going to ignore this thread now, before I piss some other er off.

Well, two strangers thought you were being rude, so take that for what it's worth. "People I work with are mean" or "you'll know when I'm _really_ being an ass" isn't a great defense, but whatever. If you didn't mean to be offensive, I'm not offended.

CONS-
VERY generic choices (but expected as the first set)
packaging...... my issue isn't the single pack or the amount of pack. Its the lack of security. What is keeping certain groups from cherry-picking the rares and leaving the rest for sales?
No dragons? Only the promo one? (awesome as it was but no set dragons?)

basically before I order the next set I need to know if there is variety. Most people here (I may be wrong) were avid collectors of the DDM figures. Do we need Dire rats? More Orcs? 4 Goblins (repaints so really only 2). and in no way,shape or form would I buy these in any way but as a brick through a bulk discount dealer. Cost and security.... cost and security.

I like the fact that Paizo/Wizkids are putting out PF specific minis, and its just nice to have more minis available in general to replace the old D&D minis, but I have a couple issues:

- I bought a couple of the 2 small mini random packs just to test the waters (already picked up the Beginner Box Heroes mini set prior to this) and Ive found these guys do not have very good durability. I dont pack them tight as noted in this review, and they are reasonably secure in a tupperware container with a few of my DDM minis as well. However after about 3 trips with them I now have 2 broken minis - I couldnt understand how this happened!

- Generally I like the minis, but I find them to look too cartooney. I thought they looked cartooney from earlier photos before they were released, and was hoping that it might be different in person, but no. They just feel like they are very much from a cartoon to me, especially when next to the DDM minis. I think it has something to do with the kind of paints used, or at least the tone of the colours. I havent really seen anyone mention this, so maybe it is just me. Does anyone else find them a little too cartooney?

Otherwise though, they are nice sculpts from what I have seen myself so far. I was also a little apalled by the massive amount of waste these suckers produce though (thanks for pointing that part out Steel_Wind, its definetly an important aspect), so Ill likely stay away from them in the future unless they change the quality/cartooney style/packaging, pretty much any combos of those improvements would do alot to get me to be a repeat customer for those minis.

I know the long standing theory on pre-painted minis is Quality, Cheap, Non-Random, pick 2 but Paizo is a company based on figuring out new ways to do established business models. Maybe a new model is what this needs.

Unfortunately, I think only the "wide range of miniatures" choice is being observed here. I imagine that the price is also higher than DDM because the minis are not manufactured by Paizo but licensed out, i.e. both Paizo and WizKids need to turn out a profit.

Looking at the gallery, these are the minis I'm interested in (so if someone were to post high-res photos of them, it'd be greatly appreciated):