Great news,,,, Never doubted you guys for a minute.
Now I have to send a letter to the agents who seized them and thank them for keeping my lower safe for me all these many months. I think we should send a, Milpitas Group Buy Photo Holiday card to A.M et all. Just to let them know that we legal firearm owners are harboring no hard feelings towards them.....:rolleyes:
BTL

OK maybe not.

eeeeek

12-20-2007, 10:09 AM

Free at last! free at last! Thank the Flying Spaghetti Monster Almighty, we are free at last!

Red_5

12-20-2007, 10:11 AM

More good news! Great job to everyone that helped make this happen.

JCG

12-20-2007, 10:16 AM

A great Dec. without a doubt. Great news

Noypi916

12-20-2007, 10:22 AM

Congrats to you guys!!! :) So will this continue and be retailed soon?

hoffmang

12-20-2007, 10:36 AM

I'll post the docs later, but here is a basic background from my point of view allowing Ben to comment on some of his details separately.

I acquired the interest in 2 Lauers from other CGN members. I filed for a LEGR on my two lowers that I got back in mid July of this year. I engaged Don Kilmer to and filed the LEGR and a pleasant request for release of those lowers directly to me pursuant to the law in late July.

We hadn't heard back from BoF so we sent a less pleasant demand (including a threat of legal action) but it turns out that our demand and Alison Merrilees' response crossed in the mail. She claimed that because I didn't own the lowers when seized I couldn't claim my own property. She also tried to claim that I couldn't get them back because they weren't registered in AFS (read a handgun or an AW) which is just laughable.

We responded asking telling her she was wrong on the law and demanding to know why she was claiming that long guns were registered in California. We then told her that we would accept her transferring the lowers to an FFL of mutual convenience for final transfer to me and gave her seven days which was the end of August.

We didn't hear anything back and began drafting a lawsuit for violation of my due process rights under the 14th and 5th.

Alison, under pressure from us and from TMLLP on Ben's behalf, finally sent a letter in mid September stating that she was closing her supposed investigation and instructing Ben to tell BoF where to send the lowers.

Due to some crazy schedules (try co-ordinating two law firms and two busy entrepreneurs plus an FFL :D) it took us some time to get the pickup arranged.

Yesterday (Wed Dec 19) Don Kilmer and the Milpitas FFL drove to the BoF training center in Rancho Cordova and picked up 219 off list lower receivers. A small group of us got together for a celebratory steak and to plan some more new trouble that we'll be talking about in the new year.

Merry Christmas Calguns!

-Gene

Choptop

12-20-2007, 10:45 AM

Funny, I was just wearing my "Evil but Legal" shirt the other day... perhaps I heard a whisper in the wind about 3 new firearms coming home with me.

WolfMansDad

12-20-2007, 10:50 AM

I love it! This has been a good week.

wutzu

12-20-2007, 10:52 AM

This is great news. Score another one for calguns.

rssslvr

12-20-2007, 11:06 AM

Ben,Gene,While I don't have a dog in this fight I just want to thank you both for standing up for the rights of gun owners in our state and sticking it to the BOF and letting them know that gun owners will no longer be pushed around and will fight for our legal right to own these rifles.Thank you both very much

Jicko

12-20-2007, 11:12 AM

The "Case dismissal of Matthew Corwin" & the "Return of Milpitas Lowers" bounded to be the 2007 HIGHLIGHTS of Calguns.net and the BEST X'mas present for us all.

CONGRAT!!!!!!!!

:jump:

phbiggs

12-20-2007, 11:20 AM

Outstanding news!! You guys fought a tough clean fight through to the finish and you are (not that we didnt know already) the winners!

Fantastic news. While I no longer hold interest in one of these (thanks Hoffmang), this is a great Christmas announcement.

1911_sfca

12-20-2007, 12:05 PM

Holy CRAP! What a surprise, and great Christmas present!

Good job, Ben, Gene, and everyone else involved. I am impressed. I thought those lowers were long gone.

I guess I have a few lowers to sell now, but I'm going to keep one and engrave it for posterity. Anyone wanna set up a group buy for engraving?

Longest waiting period ever.

No kidding...

ar15barrels

12-20-2007, 12:14 PM

Are these the notorious Superior lowers with the anto markings that were siezed?

tgriffin

12-20-2007, 12:39 PM

Anyone who is interested in selling their interest in one of said lowers please PM me to coordinate.

hoffmang

12-20-2007, 12:45 PM

Ben, Gene are you going after them for legal fees next?

Freedom is most definitely not free. There are better uses of our offensive capabilities than trying to recover those sunk costs.

-Gene

ke6guj

12-20-2007, 1:21 PM

Sweet. Congrats.

Heard the news from the Pirate the other day that they were released and in the mail.

Mize

12-20-2007, 1:21 PM

Congrats. Most people would have rolled over and taken it. Thanks for fighting the good fight.

MrLogan

12-20-2007, 1:28 PM

Great news! Score another one for the good guys. :D

rkt88edmo

12-20-2007, 1:35 PM

This is awesome news!!!

Wulf

12-20-2007, 1:41 PM

Yesterday (Wed Dec 19) Don Kilmer and the Milpitas FFL drove to the BoF training center in Rancho Cordova and picked up 219 off list lower receivers. A small group of us got together for a celebratory steak and to plan some more new trouble that we'll be talking about in the new year.

Merry Christmas Calguns!

-Gene

Sounds like you let them off too easy, both logistically and legally. I would have told them they could put them back where they found them, and that mall ninja gear is not welcome at your place of business.

hoffmang

12-20-2007, 1:45 PM

Winning is more important than grinding their nose in it and that property belongs to a whole lot of different folks - not just the couple that Ben and I own.

-Gene

WokMaster1

12-20-2007, 1:48 PM

I'll post the docs later, but here is a basic background from my point of view allowing Ben to comment on some of his details separately.

I acquired the interest in 2 Lauers from other CGN members. I filed for a LEGR on my two lowers that I got back in mid July of this year. I engaged Don Kilmer to and filed the LEGR and a pleasant request for release of those lowers directly to me pursuant to the law in late July.

We hadn't heard back from BoF so we sent a less pleasant demand (including a threat of legal action) but it turns out that our demand and Alison Merrilees' response crossed in the mail. She claimed that because I didn't own the lowers when seized I couldn't claim my own property. She also tried to claim that I couldn't get them back because they weren't registered in AFS (read a handgun or an AW) which is just laughable.

We responded asking telling her she was wrong on the law and demanding to know why she was claiming that long guns were registered in California. We then told her that we would accept her transferring the lowers to an FFL of mutual convenience for final transfer to me and gave her seven days which was the end of August.

We didn't hear anything back and began drafting a lawsuit for violation of my due process rights under the 14th and 5th.

Alison, under pressure from us and from TMLLP on Ben's behalf, finally sent a letter in mid September stating that she was closing her supposed investigation and instructing Ben to tell BoF where to send the lowers.

Due to some crazy schedules (try co-ordinating two law firms and two busy entrepreneurs plus an FFL :D) it took us some time to get the pickup arranged.

Yesterday (Wed Dec 19) Don Kilmer and the Milpitas FFL drove to the BoF training center in Rancho Cordova and picked up 219 off list lower receivers. A small group of us got together for a celebratory steak and to plan some more new trouble that we'll be talking about in the new year.
Merry Christmas Calguns!

-Gene

Same time next year? 12 midnight Jan 1st?:D

This is starting to be a New Year's traditional, yah?

Ben, there are about 12 guys on your list, excluding NRA. Why don't you guys pose for a calender (nude, of course) & send it to AM for X'mas?:D

1911_sfca

12-20-2007, 1:56 PM

Guys..

An awards dinner for 2007 is definitely in order. I would like to order up some plaques and present them to the Calguns members who have made some unique and lasting accomplishments in 2007.

And we probably still owe Tenpercent a plaque for 2006.

Can anyone offer up a space where we could do this in the Bay Area, maybe early next year?

Black Majik

12-20-2007, 1:56 PM

Congratulations guys!!! There has been some fantastic news lately! :cool2:

sierratangofoxtrotunion

12-20-2007, 2:01 PM

A small group of us got together for a celebratory steak and to plan some more new trouble that we'll be talking about in the new year.
-Gene
A New Year's surprise??

How about a celebratory Chabot Shoot n Que for the BWO & Milpitas lowers victories?

1911_sfca

12-20-2007, 2:03 PM

Removed request.. threads have been merged.

artherd

12-20-2007, 2:10 PM

Ben, Gene are you going after them for legal fees next?

Frankly I barely care. I still have not discounted the possibility and would not do this sort of thing again if I were DOJ, however our time is likely going to spent elsewhere. I will add; DOJ dodged a 1983 and other legal 'bullets' if you will pardon the pun, which were not bluffs.

I'm preparing a full story on the whole saga, there's some good stuff to this tale!

bwiese

12-20-2007, 2:10 PM

Are these the notorious Superior lowers with the anto markings that were siezed?

No, that is a separate issue.

The vendor helped to make 10% whole again despite Iggcompetence.

artherd

12-20-2007, 2:11 PM

Congrats. Most people would have rolled over and taken it. Thanks for fighting the good fight.

Ask me where I told DOJ to stuff their non prosecute...

artherd

12-20-2007, 2:17 PM

Hey Kes, merge & stick?

http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/showthread.php?t=79366&page=2

http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/showthread.php?p=891777#post891777

Kestryll

12-20-2007, 2:20 PM

I'm going to merge them in to the one in 2A for more exposure.
I suspect some members don't check the Current Legal forum that frequently.

Kestryll

12-20-2007, 2:27 PM

Merge and clean up of redundant posts completed.

And in case I forgot to mention it, Great job guys!!!

December is turning out to be our month!

1911_sfca

12-20-2007, 2:31 PM

December is turning out to be our month!

How true. And it was 2 years ago to the month that 10% came to the San Jose gun show and offered the first public sales of OLLs. Nice anniversary presents here.

milsurpshooter

12-20-2007, 2:50 PM

sweet. good job taking our freedoms back guys. i don't have an OLL and until i joined calguns i thought it was hopeless. now i can have one and configure it in many different ways. so thanks for taking our right back.

peepshowal

12-20-2007, 2:59 PM

More Great News! This is a fantastic December. Will have to take the artherd and Scatch Maroo group buy lowers out shooting this weekend to celebrate. A release party will be very fun also!
Thanks to everyone for making this happen:D

Python2

12-20-2007, 3:47 PM

Congratulation to every one that made this happen. Now I would like to build an off list AR and AK. I hear there is a Calguns brand OLL, where can I buy em?

Sgt Raven

12-20-2007, 3:59 PM

Congratulation to every one that made this happen. Now I would like to build an off list AR and AK. I hear there is a Calguns brand OLL, where can I buy em?

10% has the CG branded lowers.

Teletiger7

12-20-2007, 4:48 PM

Congratulations:party:

joe_sun

12-20-2007, 5:05 PM

Thanks!

hoffmang

12-20-2007, 5:10 PM

joe_sun's request is taken care of.

-Gene

6172crew

12-20-2007, 5:13 PM

I love the smell of napalm in the morning, its like..Victory!

PIRATE14

12-20-2007, 5:24 PM

Another good sign....

I'll take one if anyone doesn't want thier's..........:chris:

I am going to make something special out of it.......:43:

Cisco

12-20-2007, 6:09 PM

man thats some great news. So how do we go about claiming our lowers? You guys did a great job...Thank you.

wilit

12-20-2007, 6:26 PM

Wow, this is definitely a well earned victory. Congrats to all involved!

Diablo

12-20-2007, 6:36 PM

Wow...Congratulations!!!!:jump:

tankerman

12-20-2007, 7:16 PM

Excellent news. It unbelievable that US citizens are constantly under attack from a government that is supposed to be for the people, hard earned dollars are wasted fighting off warrantless attacks by crooked governmemt officials.

Does anyone make an IGGcompetent T-shirt? I want one to wear only for gunshows.

1911_Mitch

12-20-2007, 7:42 PM

EXCELLENT !!!! :jump:

To all who helped see this through
:King:

Congrats on a job well done
:cheers2:

Can't wait for the par-tay
:party:

(I'm so lucky, I picked mine up the day before the raid:D)

rksimple

12-20-2007, 7:49 PM

So how do we go about claiming our lowers?

+1. That was back when I was going to school up there. I'm 350 miles away now.:( The trip should be worth it!

hoffmang

12-20-2007, 8:05 PM

For those who would like to see the exchange up to where Alison caved:

Don and my initial letter (http://www.hoffmang.com/firearms/milpitas-lowers/2007-07-07-Kilmer_to_DOJ-Letter.pdf) - July 7 - Note that these were siezed days after BoF issued a letter saying Lauers were legal... You can't make stuff like that up.

Our demand letter (http://www.hoffmang.com/firearms/milpitas-lowers/2007-08-14-Kilmer_to_DOJ-Letter.pdf) - August 14 - This crossed in the mail with Alison's reply.

Our final reply (http://www.hoffmang.com/firearms/milpitas-lowers/2007-08-20-Kilmer_to_DOJ-Letter.pdf) - August 20 - Where Don and I teach her how to read the law and Don asks if she is up to nefarious firearm registration...

These will live on in my archive: http://www.hoffmang.com/firearms/milpitas-lowers/

When we hadn't heard back by our deadline we started drafting a complaint. However, Alison caved by mid September before we completed work on the complaint. I'll either let Ben post that or I'll post it later with his comments.

-Gene

ke6guj

12-20-2007, 8:16 PM

Those letters are beautiful (Alison's excepted :D )

hoffmang

12-20-2007, 8:19 PM

And after a quick note from Ben, here is the letter where Alison Merrilees gave up.

A couple of notes on this. First, her pet theory to cover her behind was that Ben was an FFL without a license. That's a laughable position since there was always an FFL involved and her logic would make every credit card issuer and processor and FFL too... The ATF letter she refers to was TMLLP calling ATF, explaining the situation, and after getting a long line of laughter from ATF, getting a promise from the ATF guy that he'd document that the ATF didn't consider Ben to be doing anything wrong but would ask him not to do it again.

And after a quick note from Ben, here is the letter where Alison Merrilees gave up.

A couple of notes on this. First, her pet theory to cover her behind was that Ben was an FFL without a license. That's a laughable position since there was always an FFL involved and her logic would make every credit card issuer and processor and FFL too... The ATF letter she refers to was TMLLP calling ATF, explaining the situation, and after getting a long line of laughter from ATF, getting a promise from the ATF guy that he'd document that the ATF didn't consider Ben to be doing anything wrong but would ask him not to do it again.

Typical commy response by a person who whos job it is to keep its subject in line.

She is a looser and she lost big.:D People like her are always looking for .gov jobs and thats why I didnt go there when I left the Marine Corps. I like to spend my days with type "A" folks not blue falcons.

wilit

12-20-2007, 8:39 PM

Thanks Gene. I was going to ask about the story but figured it'd come out in time.

Dont Tread on Me

12-20-2007, 8:43 PM

So what is the Iggister going to do with all that space in his trophy cabinet how he had to give them back?

Does Alison still have a job at the BoF? Wow.

Ronco

12-20-2007, 9:09 PM

19-DECEMBER, 2007. MILPITIAS, CA.
FOR IMMEDIATE RELEASE.

Nearly 2 years after they were siezed, amidst much controversy, 219 hotly contested firearm components have been returned to their rightful owners.

Thanks to the combined efforts of members of calguns.net, a web forum promoting individual rights, unlawfully taken personal property has been returned to it's rightful and legal owners.

Participants must undergo yet another 10-day waiting period, as these harmless looking chunks of aluminum are still technically 'firearms'.

This is yet another example of what good people can do when we come together openly and honestly. I thank you all for your continued support, and look forward to what 2008 will bring.

All Milpitas Group Buyers are cordially invited to a release party early Jan 2008, date and venue info will be distributed.

sweet ,much thanks to all involved. long wait but worth it. calling ffl in the morning.

docfubar

12-20-2007, 9:36 PM

I am glad you guys got them back. They were takenn a few months before I moved out of state.

If any of you want to sell one let me know, I believe atleast one NEEDS to be made into a real AR. I could always take pic's after its done and mail them to Allison.

Congrats again guys

trashman

12-20-2007, 10:09 PM

Nice work, Gene. Nothing makes me happier than to see these BOF folks out-worked on their home turf by much more meticulous (pro-gun) minds. As you say, freedom is "free as in free speech" not "free as in free beer". It takes work, money, and persistence.

Congratulations - and I'm looking forward to what you guys have in store for 2008!

--Neill

Addax

12-20-2007, 10:19 PM

Congrats Guys!

Second piece of good news this week.

:jump:

11Z50

12-20-2007, 10:33 PM

I'll be damned.......you guys pulled it off. My compliments!

Super_tactical

12-20-2007, 10:40 PM

I say we do another "Evil But Legal" T-shirt of some sort to commemorate. Mine is stained and getting worn through. It's been my favorite shirt for 2 yrs now!

tenpercentfirearms

12-20-2007, 11:39 PM

That cave in letter from Alison reads just like my letter. Lots of what could happen and nothing solid. These guys live off of fear. How sad.

I would respect the BoF so much more if they would just relax and treat people with respect. You don't have to screw with people, just say what you are going to do and do it. If you are not going to do anything, don't say anything.

Speak softly and carry a big stick.

hoffmang

12-20-2007, 11:42 PM

But her letter is priceless.

Bluster, bluster, bluster, could have beaten you if it wasn't for you kids, bluster and...

Oh yeah. Pick up your stuff before I get sued...

Yep Allison. CYA all the way back to a cushy job at LCAV after the fund-raising dries up..

-Gene

GW

12-20-2007, 11:47 PM

Ben, Gene
Thanks
George

Gshock

12-21-2007, 12:09 AM

This has been a good month indeed, looks like there really is a Santa. I would like to personally thank all of you who have fought for all California gun owner's rights.

FreedomIsNotFree

12-21-2007, 12:17 AM

Wait a second...this makes no sense....

Everyone knows CA gun owners just bend over and take it...

Jokes aside, great work! Amazing things can happen when you have the law on your side.

Are certain Deputies at the AG starting to wonder if Law School was a waste of money?

Technowizard

12-21-2007, 2:13 AM

Amazing... wasn't expecting to see this today! Awesome job guys fighting the good fight to get these back!

Hey Ben, it might be a good idea that if you still have the e-mail addresses of all of those who bought these, to send a mass message to them in case they don't frequent this site anymore. Just a thought. Thanks again for all your hard work you guys!!!

joel1316

12-21-2007, 7:47 AM

Great job guys, these lowers really have some history to go with them!

rod

12-21-2007, 9:22 AM

http://i16.tinypic.com/86g5w29.jpg

troyPhD

12-21-2007, 9:49 AM

Are certain Deputies at the AG starting to wonder if Law School was a waste of money?

I think they're going to always be in a state of denial even as losses against us 'common folk' continue to rack up.

Sgt Raven

12-21-2007, 9:53 AM

Ben, Gene, y'all make me proud to be a member of Cal Guns. :cool2:

Omega13device

12-21-2007, 10:31 AM

Gene you did a nice job of making the law work for all of us. THANK YOU Gene and Ben.

Looking forward to picking up my $300 (+2 years) DoubleStar!

artherd

12-21-2007, 10:44 AM

I would respect the BoF so much more if they would just relax and treat people with respect. You don't have to screw with people, just say what you are going to do and do it. If you are not going to do anything, don't say anything.

Agreed, this does not have to be complicated. Apply and enforce existing law. It's not that hard.

Speak softly and carry a big stick.
My signature for a while was "Speak softly and carry a self-loading .50BMG"

artherd

12-21-2007, 10:45 AM

I've got several Evil But Legal shirts still kicking around in my garage.

How about a new shirt, with Alison's offer of non-prosecution in exchange for destruction of all 219 lowers?

I wish I had a written response, but I simply told Chuck: "You can tell her to shove that offer directly up her ***."

I say we do another "Evil But Legal" T-shirt of some sort to commemorate. Mine is stained and getting worn through. It's been my favorite shirt for 2 yrs now!

mcubed4130

12-21-2007, 11:07 AM

Congrats to all who made this happen; you guys are doing a fantastic job - showing the rest of us; that all is not lost!

-M3

tay

12-21-2007, 11:07 AM

"FREE AT LAST! FREE at last! Thank (Put in your Deity) Almighty, they are free at last!"

1919A4

12-21-2007, 11:09 AM

Does anyone have an extra one they would like to sell.

Cisco

12-21-2007, 11:15 AM

Gene you did a nice job of making the law work for all of us. THANK YOU Gene and Ben.

Looking forward to picking up my $300 (+2 years) DoubleStar!

I thought they were Laurers (sp)

hoffmang

12-21-2007, 12:17 PM

I thought they were Laurers (sp)

There is actually a mix of brands in the pile.

-Gene

artherd

12-21-2007, 12:20 PM

FEB-2007:
- DOJ claimed Ben Cannon was in the business of selling firearms (false!)
http://cdglobal.net/gun/NRA%20SLC_C_Ltr%20from%20Merrilees%20re%20Receiver s%20Seized%20by%20DOJ%20(with%20attachment)-1.pdf

MARCH-2007:
- DOJ drafts a non-prosecute and destroy "civil settlement." (AFTER trying and failing to prosecute me in 3 jurisdictions.)
http://cdglobal.net/gun/Cannon%20Draft%20DOJ%20Agreement-1.pdf (I told them to shove it where the sun does not shine.)

Alison is such a doofus. She coined the new term "straw dealer!" The only problem is that the dealer is in fact an actual dealer...

Who needs to be constrained by the law when you have Deputy AG in your title. Kinda funny how we have our guns back and she is worried about covering her behind.

-Gene

rg_1111@yahoo.com

12-21-2007, 12:48 PM

Great job. Nice to know that people are getting there property back.

1911_sfca

12-21-2007, 1:18 PM

Straw dealer.. what a load of crap. I wonder if she consulted the LCAV to generate that nonsense phrase for her.

These letters make me angry. Those four receivers are my property, they were seized from my FFL while I was in the 10 day waiting period, and I wrote letters to the DOJ demanding my property back. Then she offers Ben the opportunity to destroy my property. I'm glad he didn't take the chance.

What a crock. There is a certain DDA that doesn't understand federal and state firearms laws and should be fired. The whole claim is ridiculous on the face of it, if you just read the law excerpts she puts on the first page of the letter. They clearly do not apply to the facts of this case. DUH.

hoffmang

12-21-2007, 1:23 PM

1911,

You'll note that Don and I explained that to her pretty forcefully. She knew that when I sued her I would be deemed to have title to the firearms. It actually points out an interesting loophole. On the face of California law, a court or LEA could be forced to turn a gun seized from an FFL before a 4473 directly to an actual owner without creating a 4473.

-Gene

1911_sfca

12-21-2007, 1:32 PM

1911,

You'll note that Don and I explained that to her pretty forcefully. She knew that when I sued her I would be deemed to have title to the firearms. It actually points out an interesting loophole. On the face of California law, a court or LEA could be forced to turn a gun seized from an FFL before a 4473 directly to an actual owner without creating a 4473.

-Gene

Sorry, I haven't had a chance to read your documents yet; I just read the ones that Ben posted.

Yes that is an interesting "loophole" (or I would call it, a "legislative deficiency". Our firearms laws are so complex and poorly architected that there are numerous deficiencies that show up all the time. The whole "DROS" system really runs counter to common law and property rights, so when you have a corner case such as this, it stresses the written conditions a bit, and we rely on common sense to get us through.

The trust that we put in our government, and specifically the executive branch is that they will fairly enforce laws and give citizens the benefit of the doubt and treat us fairly. Clearly there is something wrong here.

I'm going to read your documents next.. I'm sure it will be good entertainment.

artherd

12-21-2007, 1:42 PM

These letters make me angry. Those four receivers are my property, they were seized from my FFL while I was in the 10 day waiting period, and I wrote letters to the DOJ demanding my property back. Then she offers Ben the opportunity to destroy my property. I'm glad he didn't take the chance.

That was the crux of my response, I cannot speak for 217 of the guns, as they are not my property. 2 of them are, and THOSE two, YOU MAY NOT HAVE!

1911_sfca

12-21-2007, 1:42 PM

Our final reply (http://www.hoffmang.com/firearms/milpitas-lowers/2007-08-20-Kilmer_to_DOJ-Letter.pdf) - August 20 - Where Don and I teach her how to read the law and Don asks if she is up to nefarious firearm registration...

I really like that letter. "As a friendly reminder, . . ." :cool2:

artherd

12-21-2007, 1:45 PM

Don knows how to take the gloves off!

Nefarious

12-21-2007, 1:54 PM

Seems we have had alot of good news this month. What else do we have on our plates :D

Jarhead4

12-21-2007, 2:46 PM

1911,

You'll note that Don and I explained that to her pretty forcefully. She knew that when I sued her I would be deemed to have title to the firearms. It actually points out an interesting loophole. On the face of California law, a court or LEA could be forced to turn a gun seized from an FFL before a 4473 directly to an actual owner without creating a 4473.

-Gene

From your letter to Allison it sounds like she was abusing her authority and knew it. I think that is grounds for being fired and disbarred. Then again, I think this is just one of many actions she took that deserves the same punishment. Shouldn’t we ask the federal government investigate this?

By the way, I want to say thank you to all of you that made this happen. I will be seeing Rob Monday to re-DROS. Maybe this time it work.

Smokeybehr

12-21-2007, 3:05 PM

From your letter to Allison it sounds like she was abusing her authority and knew it. I think that is grounds for being fired and disbarred. Then again, I think this is just one of many actions she took that deserves the same punishment. Shouldn’t we ask the federal government investigate this?

By the way, I want to say thank you to all of you that made this happen. I will be seeing Rob Monday to re-DROS. Maybe this time it work.

Repeat after me: "1983 violation" :D

This whole fiasco is another example of the AG's office creating laws when they damned well want to instead of enforcing the ones on the books.

hoffmang

12-21-2007, 3:51 PM

Repeat after me: "1983 violation" :D

She caved before we could file. The moment we'd have filed the list of settlement demands would have ballooned.

-Gene

detmeng

12-21-2007, 4:03 PM

To all those responsible for getting this resolved THANK YOU. I have been thru the letter writing to the DOJ and several useless phone calls to no avail. You, my friends have shown the fortitude and the patience of Job in dealing with Allison et al. I will be contacting RMB after Xmas to re dros my single DS receiver. Again thanks.

dwtt

12-21-2007, 7:25 PM

I would like to attend the party in January. I missed the original incident because I bought a Fulton Arms receiver one week earlier from RMB. I also hope we get some of the happy owners for a group picture that can be sent to Allison and Iggy. Maybe not.

Technowizard

12-21-2007, 8:43 PM

I also hope we get some of the happy owners for a group picture that can be sent to Allison and Iggy. Maybe not.

That would be awesome! LOL! Hell I'd even pose in full dress blues uniform for that one (hiding my name tag avoid any UCMJ stuff of course... something about recent problems with other military personnel and pictures of their OLL.... :ninja:)!

I would like to go on record and say you guys made my Christmas. Not because I had a dog in the fight but because this is a lesson I can really relate to. It gives new hope that someday we will no longer be harassed by the people that are supposed to be here to protect the law. When will they learn that good people will fight for their rights and not allow them to make up Law and try to enforce it.

Phantom_Piney

12-22-2007, 7:46 AM

Congratulations to you Artherd, and to all those who made this possible. I am sure this is just the beginning of better things to come for OLL in the state of California.

Once again Congratulations!!! :hurray:

Matt C

12-22-2007, 2:01 PM

Calguns is racking up victory after victory and showing that we Will Not Back Down.

rickca

12-23-2007, 5:38 AM

Great News! Congrats to All!

atek3

12-23-2007, 1:36 PM

would you like me to call you to provide my NH FFL's contact info?

thanks,
atek3

bwiese

12-23-2007, 1:56 PM

I hear steam was coming off John Marsh's ears as Don Kilmer & RMB checked each & every reciever for serial #s and damage (during 2006 raid & while in DOJ 'inventory').

They just wanted to throw the 220+ receivers at 'em and have 'em leave.

I'm surprised Iggy just didn't put 'em in a brown paper bag and meet them in an Albertson's parking lot, like he did with mistakenly-seized C&R gun.

hoffmang

12-23-2007, 3:02 PM

And remember everyone. Ben Cannon is a SL*T!

-Gene

Jarhead4

12-23-2007, 3:10 PM

I hear steam was coming off John Marsh's ears as Don Kilmer & RMB checked each & every reciever for serial #s and damage (during 2006 raid & while in DOJ 'inventory').

They just wanted to throw the 220+ receivers at 'em and have 'em leave.

I'm surprised Iggy just didn't put 'em in a brown paper bag and meet them in an Albertson's parking lot, like he did with mistakenly-seized C&R gun.

I wish we were all there to see their faces!! A few extra smirks in their direction wouldn’t of hurt. May be we should get a group picture and make Christmas cards out of them and send it to them, just as a reminder.

Jarhead4

12-23-2007, 3:10 PM

And remember everyone. Ben Cannon is a SL*T!

-Gene

Oh my!

hoffmang

12-23-2007, 3:19 PM

Jar,

That was written on one of the bags by one of the group buy volunteers but it lead to some funny conversation between Don, RMB, and John Marsh.

-Gene

bwiese

12-23-2007, 3:22 PM

I wish we were all there to see their faces!!

Too bad I didn't have a chance (time off) to get stuff on video.

Jarhead4

12-23-2007, 3:24 PM

Jar,

That was written on one of the bags by one of the group buy volunteers but it lead to some funny conversation between Don, RMB, and John Marsh.

-Gene

Gene

I'm sure it did! It is funny!!!

artherd

12-24-2007, 7:59 AM

And remember everyone. Ben Cannon is a SL*T!

-Gene
HAH! That guy gets around! :D

PS: I hear Alison has a crush on me, perhaps that's why the lowers were taken?

artherd

12-24-2007, 8:02 AM

That would be awesome! LOL! Hell I'd even pose in full dress blues uniform for that one (hiding my name tag avoid any UCMJ stuff of course... something about recent problems with other military personnel and pictures of their OLL.... :ninja:)!

I think this is a great idea.

artherd

12-24-2007, 8:27 AM

Calguns is racking up victory after victory and showing that we Will Not Back Down.

DAMN RIGHT BROTHER!

Wulf

12-24-2007, 10:53 AM

HAH! That guy gets around! :D

PS: I hear Alison has a crush on me, perhaps that's why the lowers were taken?

Like it grade school where you pick on the little girl you're most interested in and she treats you like scum because she feels the same way about you.

jdberger

12-24-2007, 11:32 AM

From your letter to Allison it sounds like she was abusing her authority and knew it. I think that is grounds for being fired and disbarred. Then again, I think this is just one of many actions she took that deserves the same punishment. Shouldn’t we ask the federal government investigate this?

By the way, I want to say thank you to all of you that made this happen. I will be seeing Rob Monday to re-DROS. Maybe this time it work.

Why on earth would we have Allison fired or disbarred. She's done more for gun owners and gun rights in California than CRPA.

Personally, I think that she might be an NRA plant....:cool:

Jarhead4

12-24-2007, 11:38 AM

Why on earth would we have Allison fired or disbarred. She's done more for gun owners and gun rights in California than CRPA.

Personally, I think that she might be an NRA plant....:cool:

Hmmm, good point. I haven't thought of it taht way.

By the way, I re-DROS my lower today!!!! Less than two weeks now!!

Matt C

12-24-2007, 12:28 PM

Why on earth would we have Allison fired or disbarred. She's done more for gun owners and gun rights in California than CRPA.

Personally, I think that she might be an NRA plant....:cool:

SSHHHHHHH!!!!! Brady reads this forum too! We don't want them to fire/replace her!

bwiese

12-24-2007, 1:01 PM

SSHHHHHHH!!!!! Brady reads this forum too! We don't want them to fire/replace her!

Hahah, hehee.

Indeed, there are Some People that call her, "my favorite paper generator".

The best achievement of the OLL revolution was not the OLLs themselves, but the mounds of Alison/DOJ paperwork created that boxed themselves into the corner.

383green

12-24-2007, 7:19 PM

Indeed, there are Some People that call her, "my favorite paper generator".

Are "Some People" the same people as "the Right People"? I don't know who the Right People are, but I get the impression that they're not people I'd want to mess with. ;)

ar15barrels

12-24-2007, 8:26 PM

Are "Some People" the same people as "the Right People"?
I don't know who the Right People are, but I get the impression that they're not people I'd want to mess with. ;)

I always love it when Bill says "the right people are on it". :cool2:

harley66

12-25-2007, 2:14 PM

Need some guidance here... Son bought his lower from this Milpitas shop - he was one of the lucky ones whos Lower was taken/held/stolen (however you want to say it, lol) Any, just called him to ask if he has heard anything?? He said he wrote this off long ago - I told him about this post... ask him what if any paperwork he had... he said all he got way back when was an email stating that his elect payment was received.. then all the crap happened... No more contact - this was so long ago that he does not have that email any longer

So, what if anything can he do now??? thanks...

harley0711@yahoo.com

Cisco

12-25-2007, 2:26 PM

Thats all I got with both my lowers from the first buy and the second. No bill of sale or reciept.It was not a problem on the first so I hope it wont be this time.

harley66

12-25-2007, 2:31 PM

Second question now... I have read through all 16 pages and maybe I am just missing it ??????????????

back in the very begining I bought a lower, waited my 10 days and picked it up, no problem.... then ALL the yes we can build, no we can't build then well, maybe we can build but have to have a Mag lock installed , then maybe not... I got so tired of trying to figure it all out - a friend WANTED my lower, so, I sold it... Now my stepson is suppose to get his from the group that was seized......

So, here is 'my' question... Since I have been out of touch on these - can lowers here in CA be built into a weapon - detachable mag and all???

Ech0Sierra

12-25-2007, 2:40 PM

YES, But no pistol grip.

harley66

12-25-2007, 2:47 PM

So, really nothing has changed from two years ago??? If a pistol grip is to be kept - the mag Must be pinned??? I do remember all the posts about the {yes its legal - no its NOT leagal} on the mag pins/locks} ??

Like I said - I have been out of this for the past two years... I do have friends that have just gone ahead and build a full AR15 weapon and have been having fun with it.. - However, I would Not want to be with them when a gunho LEO sees them - if nothing has changed in the current laws...

Ech0Sierra

12-25-2007, 2:48 PM

Nothing has changed, there have only been times of paranoia and times of lax concern for the law. The laws are the same.

M. Sage

12-25-2007, 2:55 PM

C'mon... stuff has changed in two years. Our execution has gotten a lot better.

Bullet button (vs other mag locks).

U-15 and Monsterman Grip (vs having.. err... nothing).

Admittedly, not a LOT has changed, but it's gotten a lot more comfy using your off-list rifles.

383green

12-25-2007, 3:03 PM

YES, But no pistol grip.

You can build either a "featureless" build (no pistol grip, flash hider, etc.) that can have a detachable magazine, or a "fixed magazine" build which needs a pinned 10 (or less) round magazine, but can have a pistol grip and any other "evil" features.

The Bullet Button style magazine latch is a nice way to build a fixed magazine gun, but still be able to remove the magazine when necessary for maintenance, loading, clearing a jam, etc. Just make sure you never put in a magazine which holds more than 10 rounds.

If you want to be able to use larger magazines and/or drop magazines without using a tool, then you will need to use something like a MonsterMan grip in place of a pistol grip, and make sure that the build doesn't have any of the other banned "evil" features.

Ech0Sierra

12-25-2007, 3:28 PM

I'm thinking of making a shooting glove with a 4mm long 1/16" rivet glued to the index finger of a shooting glove. The glove could be the "tool!" :D

milw50717

12-26-2007, 10:49 PM

Thanks to all involved in this. I look forward to bring reunited with my lowers. I have a nice place in my gun safe reserved for them.

djslik408

12-27-2007, 5:24 PM

ABSOLUTELY GREAT WIN!!!

joe_sun

12-28-2007, 9:30 AM

Hey all. He's open tomorrow morning, Saturday, to DROS. Give him a call. I'll be there at 10am

hoffmang

12-28-2007, 9:04 PM

DROSing a Milpitas lower today does not suck...

-Gene

artherd

12-29-2007, 11:50 AM

When the weather clears, a few of us are flying in.

joe_sun

12-29-2007, 5:17 PM

DROSing a Milpitas lower today does not suck...

-Gene

Hi Gene, I heard you were there yesterday for a couple of hours. Too bad I missed you by a day, I'd really like to meet you and thank you in person. Ben, I've already met you a couple of times ;)

Rob was as nice as ever and I can't wait to head down again to bring my long lost lower home :D

Boomer1961

12-30-2007, 12:44 PM

THE MILPITAS LOWERS

I guess then this was not just a story the old ones talked about around the camp fire after all while telling Bigfoot and UFO and man with a gun on the grassy knoll stories.

This is not just internet lore that I invited myth-busters to investigate (but never heard back from)

The milpitas lowers live!

Do we have any photographic evidence though?

Has there been a congressional committee, say like the warren committee or the Mitchel investigation, to prove or disprove the existence of these lowers?

SO if this is a real story I have to ask.

Does anyone have the book rights yet?

Have they hired a good writer?

Anyone contact Spielberg or Lucas?

I eagerly await the million dollar block buster movie on this story!

MERRY CHRISTMAS & HAPPY NEW YEAR EVERYONE!

:party: :jump:

:jump: :party:

:party: :jump:

artherd

12-30-2007, 10:02 PM

I've got the book rights, s'all I'm sayin! :D

arfan66

12-30-2007, 11:05 PM

Wow! While I'm a bit behind the curve (checking out the rifleman's forum too often) congradulations to all those patient folks!

I bought my first OLL during the second or third(?) group buy, sweating bullets in fear of another siezure. Just for grins I dug up my invoice and instruction (Subj: Your Film & Light Order at BenjaminCannon.net ) emails dated 1/28/2006.

Congradulations again! Strong work there Mr. Cannon!

Oh yeah....Have a Safe and Happy New Year!
Jeff

joebob

12-31-2007, 11:51 AM

Just got my lowers back from RMB. w00t!

pidooma

01-02-2008, 12:22 PM

The milpitas lowers live!

Do we have any photographic evidence though?

Here's one of them. :D

http://www.pidooma.com/images/doj-lower.jpg

artherd

01-02-2008, 1:28 PM

DROSing a Milpitias lower does indeed not suck!
http://cdglobal.net/gun/DROS-milpitias-photo.jpg

Boarding-Team-Leader

01-02-2008, 10:41 PM

My ten day wait ends tomorrow morning.
BTL

Boarding-Team-Leader

01-03-2008, 1:21 PM

Picked up my lower this morning. I think it really missed me:jump:
Looks good to me.
http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e265/223varmint/DSC02517.jpg
BTL

Jarhead4

01-04-2008, 10:59 PM

After almost two years I finally was able to pick up my DoubleStar Receiver today. I have one thing to say to Iggy.

THHPPPPPPTTTT!!!!

By the way, I was able to get 3 Wilson Tactical after you said they were banned.

THHPPPPPPTTTT!!!!

swhatb

01-06-2008, 2:54 AM

one day something great happens, you can finally enjoy two nice cold ones.... a lower and a beer :cool2:

colossians323

01-06-2008, 3:40 PM

DROSing a Milpitias lower does indeed not suck!
http://cdglobal.net/gun/DROS-milpitias-photo.jpg

Nice boots that Rob decided to wear.

Wulf

01-06-2008, 4:40 PM

Ho Ho Ho

edittman1

01-06-2008, 4:49 PM

Nice boots that Rob decided to wear.

Classy in fact.

tpliquid1

01-10-2008, 9:42 AM

i dotn have my reciept anymore, how do i get it?

bwiese

01-10-2008, 10:09 AM

Nice boots that Rob decided to wear.

It's appropriate to wear jackboots when visiting the home of the JBTs.

Liberty1

01-10-2008, 1:51 PM

It's appropriate to wear jackboots when visiting the home of the JBTs.

Yes, the better with which to "stomp" on their egos! :D Congrats to all for the victory.

pidooma

01-10-2008, 2:42 PM

i dotn have my reciept anymore, how do i get it?

The FFL should have your name on his list so no receipt should be needed.

GW

01-10-2008, 8:39 PM

Got mine!!!
Thanks again Ben, Gene and Rob

m1aowner

01-12-2008, 3:05 AM

Dang, I need to get in there and start my DROS. I just found a copy of my orginal DROS from. But it looks like from above, I really didn't need it. Can't wait to get my 3 back!:) Thanks to all that made it happen!:)

Boomer1961

01-12-2008, 10:13 AM

Hey,

If there are any unclaimed lowers then they are mine.

Just tell me the name to who you sold them too and I'll bring my library card showing you that is me! :D

hoffmang

01-12-2008, 11:21 AM

I actually have mine in possession as of yesterday. I'll take a couple of photos and post later.

-Gene

Technowizard

01-12-2008, 8:00 PM

Picked up my Doublestar today! Yay! Only took 2 years (almost to the day), but hell... better late than never! Thanks Ben, Gene, and everyone else that helped to free these!

And here it is:

https://home.comcast.net/~technowizard/DBSTAR.JPG

Thing of beauty! :D

artherd

01-12-2008, 9:28 PM

Nice boots that Rob decided to wear.

he rode the harley that day!

svenu

01-13-2008, 11:54 PM

Boy, I've been out of the loop! 6 lowers, baby... 6 lowers.

I never really gave up, Ben, because you stayed so positive the whole time.

Thanks again!

stator

01-15-2008, 10:21 PM

I guess those with serial numbers listed on page 6 of the Sept. 10th correspondence to BC from the DOJ will be forever etched in infamy.

artherd

01-16-2008, 1:06 AM

I have several pages of SNs. Is that all you have to say now that we've won ;)

Matt640h

01-16-2008, 6:30 PM

DROSing a Milpitias lower does indeed not suck!
http://cdglobal.net/gun/DROS-milpitias-photo.jpg

Ben, Rob and who is the other guy?

svenu

01-16-2008, 10:20 PM

Found today that I have a set of 2 and a set of 4 with consecutive serial numbers. Twins and quadruplets.. ah...

Rumpled

01-17-2008, 2:47 AM

That blurry pic of the doublestar almost looks like the tasmanian devil sticking his fingers in his ears and waving at the BOF.

artherd

07-22-2009, 2:08 AM

Ben, Rob and who is the other guy?

A good friend, business partner, entrepreneur and pilot :)

Seesm

10-31-2009, 4:51 PM

19-DECEMBER, 2007. MILPITIAS, CA.
FOR IMMEDIATE RELEASE.

Nearly 2 years after they were siezed, amidst much controversy, 219 hotly contested firearm components have been returned to their rightful owners.

Thanks to the combined efforts of members of calguns.net, a web forum promoting individual rights, unlawfully taken personal property has been returned to it's rightful and legal owners.

Participants must undergo yet another 10-day waiting period, as these harmless looking chunks of aluminum are still technically 'firearms'.

This is yet another example of what good people can do when we come together openly and honestly. I thank you all for your continued support, and look forward to what 2008 will bring.

All Milpitas Group Buyers are cordially invited to a release party early Jan 2008, date and venue info will be distributed.