Post by eliscous on Jun 20, 2018 8:40:00 GMT

As already contained in the title I would like to open a Topic concerning the Dark Ritual (DR) mechanic.

I would like to Point oiut and discuss the huge difference in treatement of the DR if you Play a Female Warden (FW) or a Male Warden (MW) and mire specially a FW romancing Alistair (please this a not a misogynist or misandry Topic so please do not use such Argument).

-Take part to the DR and in this specifically case means sending Alistair to do it. There in no other choice

In theory I have no Problem with such Dilemma and with such tragic decision. For a "happy endning" you Need to pay the Price.

But what really bother me and make me feel angry is that it is only the case for a FW romancing Alistair. It is a Sentiment of injustice of the very different Treatment of Situation and playthrough I would like to Point out. I fell it like an unjustifiable relentlessness toward the character.

I am really open to other mind but please let me just explain myself:

If you Play a FW you can romancing Alistair 8already explained) Leliana or Zevran. For the last two if you romance them you have a way out: you can convince Alistair or Logain to do it. You do not have to force /let your LI do it. You can have a happy end (your character or your LI produce no demon Baby). The price to pay for that is in my opinion more acceptable and not so high.

Then if you Play a MW you can romance Leliana (same principle as previously mentionned) or Morigan and in this last case zhere is a big very unfair difference. It is Jackpot: you can same your MWs life by producing a child oiut of love with your LI (even if it is a ritual). In other words you can be (1) alive (2) have a woman who loves you alive and (3) lives with (see witch hunter dlc) and (4) have a child with (which according to DAI will be in the end a normal child without the god Spirit thanks to Flemeth/ Mythal). In no other playthrough the Wardan can have a child. And for the FW it is impossible in each playthrough. There is absolute no jusitification for such a huge difference in treatement. There is no Price to pay to have the most happy endning ever (worse you are rewarding by a child, a perfectly healthy and normal child).

This unfair and totally incomprehensible.

On one Hand if you are a FW romancning Alistair who wants to stay alive you have to convince the love of your life to sleepp with a woöam whom he despises in a Magic blood ritual and produce a fatherless bastard (and according to his hystory it is a big deal) and iti is not easier for the FW. Really when you see it through her eyes (wenn in love of course) it is really heartbreaking. It is really cruel and harsh when you see on the other Hand how easy it is for a MW romancing Morigan.

This difference is unfair. Either every playthrough has a way out or neither has.

I do not know of Bioware care for waht can the Players can feel but I really wisch the next game fix this injusitice. Even (more specially even) an FM romancing Alistair deserve a happy ending. And it is apparatly not a question of ressources beacause the found ressrouce to create a child (with voice and everything) whom existence is optionable. And for the FW?!! Nothing. Ah sorry the unresolved search for the cure! It is a joke it is?

Am I the only on Feeling this injustice? Do you believe it is fair? Or should Bioware had handled the DR better?

Post by Domakir on Jun 20, 2018 12:26:34 GMT

I think it depends on how you see the whole situation.I agree that it is way easier if you romance Leliana or Zevran but I don't think it's that simple with Morrigan. She basically admits that she's been lying and using you since the beginning and not only that, but if you refuse the ritual, she asks you to convice Loghain/Alistair to do it... even if she is your LI.With Alistair... yes, he has to sleep with her but it's just once, they dislike each other, and after that he's all yours forever. You are either married or still together as Grey Wardens.

Without metagaming, Alistair's romance ends better than Morrigan's in my opinion, since she leaves the warden regardless of what you did with the ritual. And with metagaming, all romances have some kind of happy ending, so I personally don't see the issue.

Post by copper on Jun 20, 2018 12:47:16 GMT

Yeah, I can never have Alistair do the dark ritual even excluding the romance factor. It seems cruel to make him sleep with a woman he hates, especially knowing his feelings on sex and love. Crueler still that this woman he doesn't trust will have full custody of his child. Given his own childhood without his father, I hate forcing him to repeat the cycle with his own child. When I do the dark ritual it's only through Loghain or a male warden.

Post by vertigomez on Jun 20, 2018 15:24:53 GMT

Yeah, I can never have Alistair do the dark ritual even excluding the romance factor. It seems cruel to make him sleep with a woman he hates, especially knowing his feelings on sex and love. Crueler still that this woman he doesn't trust will have full custody of his child. Given his own childhood without his father, I hate forcing him to repeat the cycle with his own child. When I do the dark ritual it's only through Loghain or a male warden.

Agreed on all points.

OP, while I understand your feelings on this matter, I think the crux of the matter is.... it was never meant to be fair. At the end of the game, Leliana, Zevran, and potentially Alistair can remain at your side; Morrigan, however, will always leave. Is that unfair to people who romanced Morrigan? I don't know if you've played the other games, so I'll go ahead and spoiler tag the rest of this.

Is it unfair to Andersmancers that he blows up a Chantry? Is it unfair to Solasmancers that he lies about his identity and involvement and then disappears for years?

Each romance has its own tone and story arc. Alistair's romance is simply never going to have that flawless ride-into-the-sunset no-heartbreak fairytale ending. That's the tone of his romance, which is altogether different from Zevran's or Morrigan's or Leliana's.

Post by Iddy on Jun 20, 2018 18:46:51 GMT

I agree that it is way easier if you romance Leliana or Zevran but I don't think it's that simple with Morrigan. She basically admits that she's been lying and using you since the beginning and not only that, but if you refuse the ritual, she asks you to convice Loghain/Alistair to do it... even if she is your LI.

I suppose it takes a severe lack of self-respect for the Warden to get back with Morrigan in Witch Hunt.

Post by Domakir on Jun 20, 2018 19:07:38 GMT

I agree that it is way easier if you romance Leliana or Zevran but I don't think it's that simple with Morrigan. She basically admits that she's been lying and using you since the beginning and not only that, but if you refuse the ritual, she asks you to convice Loghain/Alistair to do it... even if she is your LI.

I suppose it takes a severe lack of self-respect for the Warden to get back with Morrigan in Witch Hunt.

Post by Domakir on Jun 20, 2018 19:43:42 GMT

I don't know if you mean that the warden should hold a grudge against Morrigan, but if so I disagree. I don't think self respect has anything to do with that. In Witch Hunt it's been a year or two after defeating the Archdemon? I honestly don't remember but I think it was set a year after the battle, so, the way I see it, if I still bear a grudge against someone after such a long time, that's actually my problem, and it has nothing to do with the other person. So I don't think that wanting to be with Morrigan again is a sign of having little self respect, quite the opposite, in fact. I see it like forgive and move on.

Post by vertigomez on Jun 20, 2018 20:03:50 GMT

I don't know if you mean that the warden should hold a grudge against Morrigan, but if so I disagree. I don't think self respect has anything to do with that. In Witch Hunt it's been a year or two after defeating the Archdemon? I honestly don't remember but I think it was set a year after the battle, so, the way I see it, if I still bear a grudge against someone after such a long time, that's actually my problem, and it has nothing to do with the other person. So I don't think that wanting to be with Morrigan again is a sign of having little self respect, quite the opposite, in fact. I see it like forgive and move on.

I agree with you. It seems like an overabundance of pride would be the problem here; the Warden letting his own injured pride win out over his love for Morrigan. At that point the Warden just has to choose which to prioritize.

Post by eliscous on Jun 21, 2018 8:32:05 GMT

I think it depends on how you see the whole situation.I agree that it is way easier if you romance Leliana or Zevran but I don't think it's that simple with Morrigan. She basically admits that she's been lying and using you since the beginning and not only that, but if you refuse the ritual, she asks you to convice Loghain/Alistair to do it... even if she is your LI.With Alistair... yes, he has to sleep with her but it's just once, they dislike each other, and after that he's all yours forever. You are either married or still together as Grey Wardens.

Without metagaming, Alistair's romance ends better than Morrigan's in my opinion, since she leaves the warden regardless of what you did with the ritual. And with metagaming, all romances have some kind of happy ending, so I personally don't see the issue.

Thank you for your reply. It is interesting to see the whole "Morigan" plot through the eyes of others Players so thank you for your Input. I see this is more an issue on a long term situation:

Post by eliscous on Jun 21, 2018 8:34:59 GMT

Yeah, I can never have Alistair do the dark ritual even excluding the romance factor. It seems cruel to make him sleep with a woman he hates, especially knowing his feelings on sex and love. Crueler still that this woman he doesn't trust will have full custody of his child. Given his own childhood without his father, I hate forcing him to repeat the cycle with his own child. When I do the dark ritual it's only through Loghain or a male warden.

I totaly agree with you. It is very difficult to make this choice in this specific situation. That is why I find this so unfair for Alistair Romance. It is not so hard for other romances. But the whole concept of a child without father (minus the MW romancing Morigan) is very cruel for the kind and it was very selfish of Morigan to do and propose that.

Post by eliscous on Jun 21, 2018 8:38:54 GMT

Yeah, I can never have Alistair do the dark ritual even excluding the romance factor. It seems cruel to make him sleep with a woman he hates, especially knowing his feelings on sex and love. Crueler still that this woman he doesn't trust will have full custody of his child. Given his own childhood without his father, I hate forcing him to repeat the cycle with his own child. When I do the dark ritual it's only through Loghain or a male warden.

Agreed on all points.

OP, while I understand your feelings on this matter, I think the crux of the matter is.... it was never meant to be fair. At the end of the game, Leliana, Zevran, and potentially Alistair can remain at your side; Morrigan, however, will always leave. Is that unfair to people who romanced Morrigan? I don't know if you've played the other games, so I'll go ahead and spoiler tag the rest of this.

Is it unfair to Andersmancers that he blows up a Chantry? Is it unfair to Solasmancers that he lies about his identity and involvement and then disappears for years?

Each romance has its own tone and story arc. Alistair's romance is simply never going to have that flawless ride-into-the-sunset no-heartbreak fairytale ending. That's the tone of his romance, which is altogether different from Zevran's or Morrigan's or Leliana's.

Thank you for your reply. Do you have the impression that some romances have the preference of the writers. Have some by-pass?

Post by eliscous on Jun 21, 2018 9:09:50 GMT

What do you think was the real reasons for Morigan for not telling the Grey Warden sooner about the DR? I mean if he /she knew about it sooner he / she would have looked more for other Grey Warden (after he / she find Riordan for exemple because Riordan was able to create new Grey Warden (see Logain for example)).

Post by copper on Jun 21, 2018 11:54:47 GMT

What do you think was the real reasons for Morigan for not telling the Grey Warden sooner about the DR? I mean if he /she knew about it sooner he / she would have looked more for other Grey Warden (after he / she find Riordan for exemple because Riordan was able to create new Grey Warden (see Logain for example)).

If she told us an ultimate sacrifice is normally required then the warden might have time to accept the idea. By waiting until the last minute, Morrigan has a greater chance of convincing an emotional grey warden to accept the ritual.

Post by eliscous on Jun 21, 2018 13:19:16 GMT

What do you think was the real reasons for Morigan for not telling the Grey Warden sooner about the DR? I mean if he /she knew about it sooner he / she would have looked more for other Grey Warden (after he / she find Riordan for exemple because Riordan was able to create new Grey Warden (see Logain for example)).

If she told us an ultimate sacrifice is normally required then the warden might have time to accept the idea. By waiting until the last minute, Morrigan has a greater chance of convincing an emotional grey warden to accept the ritual.

That means she is still manipulative even in a friendly/ romantic relationship with the warden?

Post by copper on Jun 21, 2018 14:12:17 GMT

If she told us an ultimate sacrifice is normally required then the warden might have time to accept the idea. By waiting until the last minute, Morrigan has a greater chance of convincing an emotional grey warden to accept the ritual.

That means she is still manipulative even in a friendly/ romantic relationship with the warden?

I believe so, yes. I like Morrigan, but she's definitely a manipulative person.

Post by arcadiagrey on Jun 21, 2018 16:20:23 GMT

You know honestly OP I think you have a point. It is so much worse for a female warden in love with Alistair, but then I have to applaud BioWare for having the guts not to make every romance totally equal in every way.

Thank god for the Alistair's Dark Ritual mod that changes the scene, it makes it way less sleazy.

Post by vertigomez on Jun 21, 2018 20:29:52 GMT

OP, while I understand your feelings on this matter, I think the crux of the matter is.... it was never meant to be fair. At the end of the game, Leliana, Zevran, and potentially Alistair can remain at your side; Morrigan, however, will always leave. Is that unfair to people who romanced Morrigan? I don't know if you've played the other games, so I'll go ahead and spoiler tag the rest of this.

Is it unfair to Andersmancers that he blows up a Chantry? Is it unfair to Solasmancers that he lies about his identity and involvement and then disappears for years?

Each romance has its own tone and story arc. Alistair's romance is simply never going to have that flawless ride-into-the-sunset no-heartbreak fairytale ending. That's the tone of his romance, which is altogether different from Zevran's or Morrigan's or Leliana's.

Thank you for your reply. Do you have the impression that some romances have the preference of the writers. Have some by-pass?

Not really; there are different writers for the different romances, and they all have their own idea of what makes an interesting story or romance. David Gaider wrote Alistair's, Morrigan's, and Zevran's and said that he was surprised how (relatively) unpopular Zevran's romance was.

I certainly don't think Alistair was shafted; he has a lot of content and is plot-important, which is something a lot of people look for in their romances.

Post by pessimistpanda on Jun 22, 2018 17:34:44 GMT

I mean... I get that sex is a sensitive/emotional issue in general for a lot of people, myself included, but if I was going to die, and the only way out was to fuck someone I don't like, I would have my dick out before they even finished that sentence. In what world is "sub-par sex vs. FUCKING DYING" a difficult choice to make?

That said, I always make Alistair do it, primarily because Wardens are otherwise barren and it might be useful to secure a blood heir down the line for when he dies and Ferelden completely falls to pieces again. "Oh, it's cruel to make him sleep with a woman he doesn't like!". Yeah, maybe it is. You know what's worse? Letting a young man die when the means of saving his life is so incredibly, ridiculously simple. Imagine that scenario in real life: "My husband has terminal cancer, but the doctors say he can be cured by another woman's magical vagina. I'm just going to keep that information to myself, because I would legit prefer that he died."

I do not understand, and have never understood, people's various issues with the Dark Ritual. I never saw Morrigan as "evil" or untrustworthy, and I do not see where people are getting the impression that she and Alistair hate each other. "You're stupid!" "Oh yeah? Well you have your mother's nose!". Weak. If that's what you think hate looks like, then you've never actually faced hatred. To me, their interactions are indistinguishable from heterosexual flirting, circa 1990-early 2000s.

Post by sparkythebarbarian on Jun 22, 2018 17:50:42 GMT

One of the most appealing things about DA:O is that the game is filled with morally ambiguous dilemmas that have no clear cut easy answer. This is perhaps the most obvious: One of you dies, or your LI is unfaithful.

Post by copper on Jun 22, 2018 17:52:28 GMT

I mean... I get that sex is a sensitive/emotional issue in general for a lot of people, myself included, but if I was going to die, and the only way out was to fuck someone I don't like, I would have my dick out before they even finished that sentence. In what world is "sub-par sex vs. FUCKING DYING" a difficult choice to make?

That said, I always make Alistair do it, primarily because Wardens are otherwise barren and it might be useful to secure a blood heir down the line for when he dies and Ferelden completely falls to pieces again. "Oh, it's cruel to make him sleep with a woman he doesn't like!". Yeah, maybe it is. You know what's worse? Letting a young man die when the means of saving his life is so incredibly, ridiculously simple. Imagine that scenario in real life: "My husband has terminal cancer, but the doctors say he can be cured by another woman's magical vagina. I'm just going to keep that information to myself, because I would legit prefer that he died."

I do not understand, and have never understood, people's various issues with the Dark Ritual. I never saw Morrigan as "evil" or untrustworthy, and I do not see where people are getting the impression that she and Alistair hate each other. "You're stupid!" "Oh yeah? Well you have your mother's nose!". Weak. If that's what you think hate looks like, then you've never actually faced hatred. To me, their interactions are indistinguishable from heterosexual flirting, circa 1990-early 2000s.

For probably most people I'd agree that bad sex is preferable to well, dying, but in the game Alistair seems to actually prefer sacrificing himself. Given his distrust of Morrigan for the whole game and his hero worship of the grey wardens I think it makes sense for him. He'd rather trust the grey wardens who in his mind can do no wrong than the sneaky witch thief. That said, Alistair always leaves my party to rule with Anora, so he's never a potential father for Kieran in my games.

As for the hate thing, I don't believe Morrigan hates Alistair. I think she likes to tease him, similar to a sister teasing her dorky brother. I do believe Alistair truly hates Morrigan, however. In the comics he kills a woman who reminds him of Morrigan with no hesitation. If that's heterosexual flirting, it's not healthy.

Post by pessimistpanda on Jun 22, 2018 17:57:22 GMT

I mean... I get that sex is a sensitive/emotional issue in general for a lot of people, myself included, but if I was going to die, and the only way out was to fuck someone I don't like, I would have my dick out before they even finished that sentence. In what world is "sub-par sex vs. FUCKING DYING" a difficult choice to make?

That said, I always make Alistair do it, primarily because Wardens are otherwise barren and it might be useful to secure a blood heir down the line for when he dies and Ferelden completely falls to pieces again. "Oh, it's cruel to make him sleep with a woman he doesn't like!". Yeah, maybe it is. You know what's worse? Letting a young man die when the means of saving his life is so incredibly, ridiculously simple. Imagine that scenario in real life: "My husband has terminal cancer, but the doctors say he can be cured by another woman's magical vagina. I'm just going to keep that information to myself, because I would legit prefer that he died."

I do not understand, and have never understood, people's various issues with the Dark Ritual. I never saw Morrigan as "evil" or untrustworthy, and I do not see where people are getting the impression that she and Alistair hate each other. "You're stupid!" "Oh yeah? Well you have your mother's nose!". Weak. If that's what you think hate looks like, then you've never actually faced hatred. To me, their interactions are indistinguishable from heterosexual flirting, circa 1990-early 2000s.

For probably most people I'd agree that bad sex is preferable to well, dying, but in the game Alistair seems to actually prefer sacrificing himself. Given his distrust of Morrigan for the whole game and his hero worship of the grey wardens I think it makes sense for him. He'd rather trust the grey wardens who in his mind can do no wrong than the sneaky witch thief. That said, Alistair always leaves my party to rule with Anora, so he's never a potential father for Kieran in my games.

As for the hate thing, I don't believe Morrigan hates Alistair. I think she likes to tease him, similar to a sister teasing her dorky brother. I do believe Alistair truly hates Morrigan, however. In the comics he kills a woman who reminds him of Morrigan with no hesitation. If that's heterosexual flirting, it's not healthy.

Well Alistair makes it clear that he absolutely does not want to sleep with Morrigan, and my response to that can basically be boiled down to "suck it up, buttercup". Ferelden needs a Theirin heir, I need to not die, and both birds can be killed by one stone.

Post by eliscous on Jun 26, 2018 8:56:30 GMT

You know honestly OP I think you have a point. It is so much worse for a female warden in love with Alistair, but then I have to applaud BioWare for having the guts not to make every romance totally equal in every way.

Thank god for the Alistair's Dark Ritual mod that changes the scene, it makes it way less sleazy.

Thank you for your reply. Yeah there is a mod so that the scene is not so... creepy. Thanks the modders :-)

Post by eliscous on Jun 26, 2018 8:58:54 GMT

For probably most people I'd agree that bad sex is preferable to well, dying, but in the game Alistair seems to actually prefer sacrificing himself. Given his distrust of Morrigan for the whole game and his hero worship of the grey wardens I think it makes sense for him. He'd rather trust the grey wardens who in his mind can do no wrong than the sneaky witch thief. That said, Alistair always leaves my party to rule with Anora, so he's never a potential father for Kieran in my games.

As for the hate thing, I don't believe Morrigan hates Alistair. I think she likes to tease him, similar to a sister teasing her dorky brother. I do believe Alistair truly hates Morrigan, however. In the comics he kills a woman who reminds him of Morrigan with no hesitation. If that's heterosexual flirting, it's not healthy.

Well Alistair makes it clear that he absolutely does not want to sleep with Morrigan, and my response to that can basically be boiled down to "suck it up, buttercup". Ferelden needs a Theirin heir, I need to not die, and both birds can be killed by one stone.

According to Morigan he will not be the heir. That was by the time confirmed by the game's writers (I dot know remember who).

Post by eliscous on Jun 26, 2018 9:03:51 GMT

I mean... I get that sex is a sensitive/emotional issue in general for a lot of people, myself included, but if I was going to die, and the only way out was to fuck someone I don't like, I would have my dick out before they even finished that sentence. In what world is "sub-par sex vs. FUCKING DYING" a difficult choice to make?

That said, I always make Alistair do it, primarily because Wardens are otherwise barren and it might be useful to secure a blood heir down the line for when he dies and Ferelden completely falls to pieces again. "Oh, it's cruel to make him sleep with a woman he doesn't like!". Yeah, maybe it is. You know what's worse? Letting a young man die when the means of saving his life is so incredibly, ridiculously simple. Imagine that scenario in real life: "My husband has terminal cancer, but the doctors say he can be cured by another woman's magical vagina. I'm just going to keep that information to myself, because I would legit prefer that he died."

I do not understand, and have never understood, people's various issues with the Dark Ritual. I never saw Morrigan as "evil" or untrustworthy, and I do not see where people are getting the impression that she and Alistair hate each other. "You're stupid!" "Oh yeah? Well you have your mother's nose!". Weak. If that's what you think hate looks like, then you've never actually faced hatred. To me, their interactions are indistinguishable from heterosexual flirting, circa 1990-early 2000s.

I have the impression that this post makes you a little angry or upset... For sure each people has in own view concerning relationship/ romance /sex and I respect that. But that was originally not my point. I have no problem to make difficult / tragic decision. But my problem was that it is only in this particular playthrough that it is the case. For all others there is a way out.

As for Alistair not hating Morigan I have a different opinion . For me he clearly hates her and I do not this changing after the DR ( it would be perhaps even more worse).