Basically Unlimited/Infinite Vertical Gear Progression - no good for pvp

Unlimited/Infinite Skill, Ability, and/or Power Progression - no good for pvp

Types of Progression that can work for pvp:

Limited Gear Progression - In the AD&D I played, magical items (weapons, armor, etc.) only had a possible range of +1 to +5. The more powerful an item is, the more rare and difficult to obtain it would be. Mundane items are produced from limited quantities and qualities of resources and materials (or should be). And the higher quality of craftsmanship a particular item has, the more rare it will be.

Limited Skill, Ability, and/or Power Progression - If there is no possibility of permanent death in the game, skill caps are required to keep characters from becoming overpowered. Also, the number of skills, abilities, and/or powers any individual character can master should be limited according to the amount of intelligence, wisdom, and willpower/dedication a character possesses.

Advancement of One's Realm (if it is a Realm vs. Realm game)

Advancement & Continuation of One's Family Line (if the player-characters are able to produce children) But this should only be used in games with the possibility of permadeath.)

Of course, players that play longer will hopefully become more skilled at playing. But that is not 100% true 100% of the time. Not everyone learns from mistakes as well as others. Not everyone has the same capacity to learn in general. Not everyone is able to adapt and overcome as quickly as others. But that's okay. That's life. There will always be someone stronger, smarter, or more skilled, etc.

And there will always be particular encounters or situations that may seem or may actually be unfair or unbalanced. But that's fine as long as the overall system is fair and balanced.

I believe that the most important factors in pvp should be wit, skill, strategy/planning, tactics, and teamwork.

One more thing. There is a mechanic that could be employed to keep people who have an overabundance of time to play from gaining too much of an advantage over those who don't have as much time to play: fatigue and the need for characters to rest and/or sleep. Player-characters would only be able to accomplish so much within any given amount of time. And the more strenuous physical exercise is done while accomplishing those particular tasks, the more fatigued a character would become. But that should only be used if a game is actually attempting to be more realistic than most games usually attempt to be nowadays.

Also, if there is no permadeath, progression of skills, abilities, and powers should be retarded by death. In other words, there should be a significant penalty for dying. Loss of ability that needs to be regained.

Still, there has to be some way of preventing eventual masters at combat from going around hunting and killing noobs very often. There should be some sort of consequence for it built into the game.

Some pvpers may not like the idea, but we don't live in a world that is totally free from the possibility of people being punished for committing random acts of violence or murder. I don't understand why people think they should be able to simulate murder without possible repercussion. Makes no sense to me.

I don't know if this game has the criminals are 'red' system or not. And I don't know if the whole self-policing thing really ever works the way people hope it will.

Seems to me that there should be laws in any world inhabited by sentient, intelligent beings. Otherwise you have anarchy, which always leads to some form of tyranny. That doesn't mean every region in a gameworld would have the same laws and customs as others. Some might be Lawful Good, others might be Chaotic Evil. And everything in between. Of course, just because an area does have some form of law, as well as a legal system of crime and punishment, that doesn't mean the perpetrator of a crime will always be caught.

Still, I reiterate, why do we make so many games where people can simulate murder, but so few that simulate the possibility of being arrested, imprisoned, killed, or executed for it? I don't really understand that myself. It's not that easy to get away with murder or any serious crime in the real world.

The same thing can apply to picking pockets, robbing banks, breaking people out of prison, rescuing people from the executioner's axe or noose, or any other possible legal or illegal act. As long as there are potential meaningful consequences for actions, whether positive or negative, beneficial or harmful, players can be given a lot more freedom as to the ways with which they can interact with the virtual world, AI mobs, NPCs, and each other.

The ability to place bounties and bounty hunting is something that can be used in MMORPGs as well. But, most likely, players should only be able to place bounties on another player belonging to an opposing realm or faction. Although, if it would be feasible to program, players might also be able to place bounties on another player who had recently killed him or her. There would probably need to be some kind of bounty master (player or NPC) somewhere in a town or city to whom the player would report another player's name. The bounty would then become a quest/mission that any player in the same realm or faction (as the player who placed the bounty) could receive from the bounty master.

There is passive skill progression, and active skill progression. Someone who started playing before you will have a slight advantage (as they should) but nothing that takes you out of competition for the life of the game. Also the way the campaigns work there is a beginning and end to player vs player conflict. Players have a chance to lick their wounds and return a new world/new map.

These are the same guys who made Shadowbane so before theory speculating you should check it out.

Well, I won't play if they're selling in-game advantages or if the pvp isn't fair, balanced, and competitive.

I won't play if people can destroy me just because they've played longer or paid more. Or if I can do the same to other people. That doesn't sound like fun to me.

So, you should be competitive with ppl l have played for a while and gotten experience, items, armor and such from your first login? Purchased advantages I can see, effort based progression... Not so much.

Concentrate on enjoying yourself, and not on why I shouldn't enjoy myself.

Well, I won't play if they're selling in-game advantages or if the pvp isn't fair, balanced, and competitive.

I won't play if people can destroy me just because they've played longer or paid more. Or if I can do the same to other people. That doesn't sound like fun to me.

So, you should be competitive with ppl l have played for a while and gotten experience, items, armor and such from your first login? Purchased advantages I can see, effort based progression... Not so much.

Not my first log-in, no. Not necessarily. But I do believe a good pvp video game or mmorpg should only require a few days or weeks for a new (intelligent and skilled) player to become competitive, rather than a few months or years. It is a player-vs-player game, not a player-vs-time or money game. Hopefully.

I have another beef with someone saying that it's not fair to other people who have played for awhile and put in effort if I can start an mmorpg pvp game and become competitive in a short time. Playing for awhile and putting in effort is something I have already done in mmorpgs a few times. I have or have had max level characters in three other mmorpgs. Sampled/tried many more.

Grinding again, grinding much, grinding more, grinding, grinding, grinding galore is not something I'm interested in doing in another (or other) mmorpg(s) in the hopes of possibly, possibly finding an mmorpg that actually has good (or even decent) pvp.

I don't see why I should need to grind more just to be able to find a game that might hopefully have some kind of fair, balanced, and competitive pvp. There's no reason why we need to grind much or grind at all in any mmorpg. There's more than one way to skin a cat, there's more than one way to make an mmorpg.

I have another beef with someone saying that it's not fair to other people who have played for awhile and put in effort if I can start an mmorpg pvp game and become competitive in a short time. Playing for awhile and putting in effort is something I have already done in mmorpgs a few times. I have or have had max level characters in three other mmorpgs. Sampled/tried many more.

Grinding again, grinding much, grinding more, grinding, grinding, grinding galore is not something I'm interested in doing in another (or other) mmorpg(s) in the hopes of possibly, possibly finding an mmorpg that actually has good (or even decent) pvp.

I don't see why I should need to grind more just to be able to find a game that might hopefully have some kind of fair, balanced, and competitive pvp. There's no reason why we need to grind much or grind at all in any mmorpg. There's more than one way to skin a cat, there's more than one way to make an mmorpg.

We have had this discussion in some of your other recent threads. The disconnect is that you see it from the player perspective... almost as though you personally have "leveled up" in MMORPG game playing and thus should take your accomplishments with you to various games.

I see it from the character's perspective. The new warrior who just showed up and has been training for 3 days is going to get his ass kicked pretty regularly by the Hero who has been adventuring and fighting for years.

As they are opinions, neither is wrong... but many of us really and truly enjoy character growth and progression. I don't just want to learn more skills, but I want him to get better at those he has.. so yes... I like vertical progression.

"I should point out that no other company has shipped out a beta on a disc before this." - Official Mortal Online Lead Community Moderator

Starvault's reponse to criticism related to having a handful of players as the official "test" team for a supposed MMO: "We've just have another 10ish folk kind enough to voulenteer added tot the test team" (SIC) This explains much about the state of the game :-)

From what I understand there are two types of progression in this game. Passive skill increases exactly like EVE, and gear based. You'll never lose bonuses gained from your passive skill progression, gear however can be lost and destroyed upon death.

As for if a player who just joined the game 3 days ago can compete with someone who's been playing for a year? Probably not. Getting good gear will require access to high level resources which a new player wouldn't have had the game time to accomplish yet. Unless you get into a guild that is willing to twink you out. And of course your passive skills will be way behind.

How much vertical gear progression is there in Crowfall? A lot? How many levels of gear?

They haven't reached the point in development where multiple "tiers" of gear are implemented, so it's hard to say. But because resource collection is meant to be a main focus of campaigns, and resources are used to craft gear, I'm betting the gear will have a significant impact. Otherwise there would be less incentive to compete over resources.

But if there is vertical gear progression in terms of tiers, I won't play. Like I'm wearing tier 2 plate and wielding a tier 2 blade, but this guy is wearing tier 3 or tier 4 plate and using a tier 3 or 4 axe, so he wins and I stand no chance, that's freakin lame.

I'm so sick of that tired old bullshit. I absolutely refuse to play another game that is like that for the rest of my life.

*But magic needs to be rare and difficult to obtain. The more powerful it is, the more difficult it is to obtain or craft. And people should be able to steal it from you. Not everyone and their mother in a game world needs to have or should have a magic weapon and a full set of magical armor. It's ridiculous.

I agree with you, it certainly isn't any fun being forced into a fight with a player when you have no chance of winning, regardless of player skilly. The Crowfall devs have said the power gap won't be so extreme that a seasoned character can cut swaths through ranks of newbies. I want to say 2 or 3 newbies and kill a maxed out character.

That said, Crowfall isn't so much about 1v1 battles. I'd almost say 1v1 would be a waste of your time. It's a guild oriented game with focus on capturing resources and objectives to give bonuses to your side and win the campaign that plays out over a few months. Crowfall also has RPG elements, where it's about creating and building your character. There will be a lot of factors that you work on before a battle begins, and those factors will have a significant impact on the outcome of that battle.

Games that have PvP that rely solely on player skill are really e-sports. Overwatch or League.

Not solely. I want wit, skill, strategy, tactics/planning, and teamwork to all play a role and be the major factors in any single skirmish or long term campaign. I do not want levels and gear to be the only reasons one player or one team wins or loses. It's totally unrealistic. Actually, I don't want or need levels at all.

I know how to make an MMORPG like that. I've written about it extensively in the Pub section.

If I had the money, the facilities, and a skilled team of programmers and artists, I could start making it right now.

Well, I won't play if they're selling in-game advantages or if the pvp isn't fair, balanced, and competitive.

I won't play if people can destroy me just because they've played longer or paid more. Or if I can do the same to other people. That doesn't sound like fun to me.

So, you should be competitive with ppl l have played for a while and gotten experience, items, armor and such from your first login? Purchased advantages I can see, effort based progression... Not so much.

Not my first log-in, no. Not necessarily. But I do believe a good pvp video game or mmorpg should only require a few days or weeks for a new (intelligent and skilled) player to become competitive, rather than a few months or years. It is a player-vs-player game, not a player-vs-time or money game. Hopefully.

It's the qualifier 'intelligent and skilled' that's the problem. How do you program that so that those can prevail without coding it so that any scrub can.

Concentrate on enjoying yourself, and not on why I shouldn't enjoy myself.

While your "crow" can master everything over a long period of time, you will always be subject to the abilities of the vessel. That is, if your vessel only has a max of 60 skill (as an example, I don't know how the values will be on launch) in swordsmanship, but your account is at 100, you will not be able to surpass 60. Vessels will have natural limits, as well as likely be banned from entering specific worlds or campaigns due to ruleset. Vessels may also be permanently lost in the most dangerous yet profitable sections of the universe. Typically, the father you are away from the Hunger, the safer you'll be and the less you risk.

So basically I could be playing for five years, have everything maxed... and still be on the same level as you due to campaign / world rulesets as well as the natural limitations of vessels, of which no vessel will be allowed to be a master at everything. There will be different qualities of vessels, but each one will have trade offs. Plus, there's a risk of losing one if you want to risk it in a high danger section of the universe. Likely, you will only want to use common quality ones in large armies. Though you may very well one day be up against a legendary vessel that allows for 100 in swords if they want to risk it being lost -- yet still two people might be able to take it down.

Honestly, such a vessel will have more use trading it for rare materials or just showing it off in your Eternal Kingdom. It's like Valorite Armor in UO; if you wore it outside, you were going to get ganked and corpse robbed. If someone realizes you have a nice vessel, they'll try to kill you and use their necromancy to claim it.

So while I may have more options on the type of vessel I can use, you are still able to pick one with the same skills as me, and we'll both be capped at 60 in the above situation with swords. There will also be campaigns where only base vessels are allowed, and you have to dig up graves or find people who have skill and take over their body. Each campaign will likely restrict what you can bring into it as a guild or individual. Maybe a point value in terms of starting equipment. If you want a full set of low quality armor or a single medium quality sword or something, each equaling the same point value in terms of balance.

Gear isn't the only facter, there are hard counters for every class this means you have to pick your fights. If you play an assassin and you attack someone that is a counter to assassin you're going to lose.

why don't you do your own damn research and stop being lazy and expecting everyone else to do it for you.