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Hard content demands that you group together and form thos social aspects. Easy content allows you to be anti-social and play by yourself.

That is such a ridiculous statement and so incorrect in so many ways. If you don't see how it's not my place to explain, I would only suggest play some more mmorpg's and do your homework before you post such dribble.

What? Teamwork=socialization. Last I checked easy content does not promote it, and infact is often worse off with teamwork, for a variety of reasons.

What on Earth are you talking about? Who said anything about easy content except for you lol? Like many before you, you have created an argument that wasn't there and isn't really up for debate to fit your narrative. Last few posts are a perfect example of why it's near impossible to have a normal discussion with players like yourself.

I don't want easy content or hard content, I want the tools so the playerbase can create an end game. Like a true sandbox you know?

Any reasonable content that is soloable is by its very nature easier than content that you have to work with others to achieve, for a variety of reasons. Interdependency is at the crux of a good community, and a good playerbase. Also, the game is not a sandbox, in any sense of the word.

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So wait. First its bad if your an ES fanboy, and then its bad if you aren't?!

lol, no one can be this dense. So I am done with your trolling.

Wow, reading comprehension fail +99. Where do you create this stuff??? When did I say you were an ES fanboi? Re-read the thread you're so vehemently posting in and try to grasp it all.

You've failed to address any of the points I called you out on and proved you were speaking nonsense. Now you're calling me dense and accuse me of trolling.... again thank you for further proving my point.

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The thing I don't like about raids is the leetism and the fact thet they can be set up to effectively allow only a small % of the playerbase to do them.

The guild-focus and sense of acheivement from challenging raids is a good game element though - one subsequently usually ruined by the need to grind farm-status bosses, but fun whilst you are learning the ropes.

I think raids have a place and should be put in with the following caveats;

1. The gear they give is the best in game - but is matched by solo, small group and craftable routes

2. Gear and other rewards come in a medium term timeframe so as not to require endless farming

I mean why not have the way in which raiding works change to get rid of the bad and keep most of the good?

It really shouldn't be about either/or...

As soon as you reward solo play the same as group play you disencentize the group play. If i can get something solo then its the much easier route than having to deal with others to get it.

Define "medium term" since how long things take are often subjective. Many players often consider things too long, even though developers generally have the metrics to say otherwise.

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Originally posted by Livnthedream

Any reasonable content that is soloable is by its very nature easier than content that you have to work with others to achieve, for a variety of reasons. Interdependency is at the crux of a good community, and a good playerbase. Also, the game is not a sandbox, in any sense of the word.

You guys really are too much.

When did the discussion have anything to do with solo or group content? When did I ever mention anything of the kind?

I know it's a not a sandbox dude, trust me I know. Thanks to players like morbidlymystic it couldn't ever be.

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TES end game shouldn't revolve around gear like 95% of the other theme park mmo's

TES end game should revolve around... Open PVP, Guild PVP, Territory Control, Emperor Elections, Politics... the list goes on but what isn't on that list is instanced raids providing the barbie doll mentality of 'I gotz to havez that new gearz!!!' that has failed every mmorpg since WoW besides WoW.

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Originally posted by morbidlymystic Simple, no one is talking to you troll. You don't get to dictate the whole discussion. ;p

You quoted a post I wrote replying to another member to say that ^^^ Thank you for again further proving my point :)

Edit - I've added all I can to this discussion, with the added bonus of having the typical player I was referring to in my first post come in and show us exactly what I said of them is true. Goodnight!

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Originally posted by Genadi

Originally posted by Livnthedream

Any reasonable content that is soloable is by its very nature easier than content that you have to work with others to achieve, for a variety of reasons. Interdependency is at the crux of a good community, and a good playerbase. Also, the game is not a sandbox, in any sense of the word.

You guys really are too much.

When did the discussion have anything to do with solo or group content? When did I ever mention anything of the kind?

I know it's a not a sandbox dude, trust me I know. Thanks to players like morbidlymystic it couldn't ever be.

Have you even looked at the title or read the op of the thread you are posting in?

Originally posted by Genadi

TES mmorpg should be sandbox.

TES end game shouldn't be raids.

TES end game shouldn't revolve around gear like 95% of the other theme park mmo's

TES end game should revolve around... Open PVP, Guild PVP, Territory Control, Emperor Elections, Politics... the list goes on but what isn't on that list is instanced raids providing the barbie doll mentality of 'I gotz to havez that new gearz!!!' that has failed every mmorpg since WoW besides WoW.

Guess what, sacrifices need to be made to make your mediocre single player experience into a decent multiplayer game. Deal with it.

Originally posted by morbidlymystic

Except if the rates of acquiring gear is different. Just because you can get equal gear, doesn't mean it will take the same amount of time.

That is the only feasible way it COULD work.

Not really. Look at the complaining you get with that very system in Rift. You will still get all of the same bs about the developers catering to the "elitist" raiders who refuse to carry them through stuff.

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what isn't on that list is instanced raids providing the barbie doll mentality of 'I gotz to havez that new gearz!!!' that has failed every mmorpg since WoW besides WoW.

Originally posted by morbidlymystic

I copied this from another thread, but I think it illustrates my point.

Originally posted by hMJem

Again, it all depends on what Zenimax needs to have and wants to have subscriber number wise. If 30,000 subs is sustainable, then they can do without raids. If they want something like 2-3 million concurrent active subscribers, I dont see that happening in the current format

If they want a medicore game that goes F2P, or starts off that way, then they don't need end game pve progression content.

If they wan't millions of active subs paying $13 a month then they need that progression and continual updates.

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Guess what, sacrifices need to be made to make your mediocre single player experience into a decent multiplayer game. Deal with it.

I guess this is where opnion comes into it, I can't disagree or argue with you on that. If you think the TES series is a mediocre single player experience I can see why the discussion took the turn it did.... makes much more sense now.

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Originally posted by Genadi

I guess this is where opnion comes into it, I can't disagree or argue with you on that. If you think the TES series is a mediocre single player experience I can see why the discussion took the turn it did.... makes much more sense now.

Considering the sheer number of mods that a large number consider must haves, and the sheer number of bugs Bethesda titles launch with, and continue to launch with, paired with pathetic attempts at fixes that the community quickly takes care of, yeah I would have to go with mediocre.

Also, good job skipping over the blatant retardation that was your opening salvo of "this should be single play" in a thread about raids.

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Originally posted by Livnthedream

Originally posted by Genadi

I guess this is where opnion comes into it, I can't disagree or argue with you on that. If you think the TES series is a mediocre single player experience I can see why the discussion took the turn it did.... makes much more sense now.

Considering the sheer number of mods that a large number consider must haves, and the sheer number of bugs Bethesda titles launch with, and continue to launch with, paired with pathetic attempts at fixes that the community quickly takes care of, yeah I would have to go with mediocre.

Also, good job skipping over the blatant retardation that was your opening salvo of "this should be single play" in a thread about raids.

As opposed to the smooth launches other ground breaking games and mmo's have, including WoW's crash fest of a launch. Your point really is ridiculous in context.

blatant retardation? That's pretty offensive wording there, I'd suggest you change it and refrain from such vulgar insults in the future... it does nothing for your image. Also you've again completely made something up, please quote me where I made the opening salvo you speak of with such venom.... I look forward to the quote to back up your nonsense. You actually created a quote "this should be single play".... just amazing one can be so ignorant in a conversation being documented in front of their very eyes.

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As opposed to the smooth launches other ground breaking games and mmo's have, including WoW's crash fest of a launch. Your point really is ridiculous in context.

That would be fine if I were talking about launch. How about 4 dlc (one of which is completely nullified by the community) and 9 patches later and they are still generating more bugs for the community to fix. I mean even if they weren't releasing dlc that needed to be cleaned because of itr and udr errors and broken navmesh they release patches that break tree lod generation. Honestly, have you even looked at the sheer list of bugs the unnoficial patches have fixed?

blatant retardation? That's pretty offensive wording there, I'd suggest you change it and refrain from such vulgar insults in the future... it does nothing for your image. Also you've again completely made something up, please quote me where I made the opening salvo you speak of with such venom.... I look forward to the quote to back up your nonsense. You actually created a quote "this should be single play".... just amazing one can be so ignorant in a conversation being documented in front of their very eyes.

Fine, I will take you at face value and actually believe that after throwing around words like scrubz and drivel you are not a troll and honestly believe that sandbox without raids is somehow more inherently social. Neverminding that team building activity is the best way to form strong bonds between people. What are these "social" tools that belong to "sandboxes" that do not exist in themeparks? Again skipping over that easily soloable content discourages players to work together.

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As opposed to the smooth launches other ground breaking games and mmo's have, including WoW's crash fest of a launch. Your point really is ridiculous in context.

That would be fine if I were talking about launch. How about 4 dlc (one of which is completely nullified by the community) and 9 patches later and they are still generating more bugs for the community to fix. I mean even if they weren't releasing dlc that needed to be cleaned because of itr and udr errors and broken navmesh they release patches that break tree lod generation. Honestly, have you even looked at the sheer list of bugs the unnoficial patches have fixed?

blatant retardation? That's pretty offensive wording there, I'd suggest you change it and refrain from such vulgar insults in the future... it does nothing for your image. Also you've again completely made something up, please quote me where I made the opening salvo you speak of with such venom.... I look forward to the quote to back up your nonsense. You actually created a quote "this should be single play".... just amazing one can be so ignorant in a conversation being documented in front of their very eyes.

Fine, I will take you at face value and actually believe that after throwing around words like scrubz and drivel you are not a troll and honestly believe that sandbox without raids is somehow more inherently social. Neverminding that team building activity is the best way to form strong bonds between people. What are these "social" tools that belong to "sandboxes" that do not exist in themeparks? Again skipping over that easily soloable content discourages players to work together.

Actually the most social games are sandbox type games. Look at preNGE SWG. They had all kinds of social tools. People were left to their own devices to play the way they wanted. They were just given the tools. You had everything from non-combat classes to housing. People made towns, voted for mayors, and setup shops. Your class was kind of like a career. Some people would hunt or harvest and do nothing else. Everyone would interact because of the economy required it. It was very social. Much more so than WoW or GW2 where you are lucky if someone even says a word.

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The thing I don't like about raids is the leetism and the fact thet they can be set up to effectively allow only a small % of the playerbase to do them.

The guild-focus and sense of acheivement from challenging raids is a good game element though - one subsequently usually ruined by the need to grind farm-status bosses, but fun whilst you are learning the ropes.

I think raids have a place and should be put in with the following caveats;

1. The gear they give is the best in game - but is matched by solo, small group and craftable routes

2. Gear and other rewards come in a medium term timeframe so as not to require endless farming

I mean why not have the way in which raiding works change to get rid of the bad and keep most of the good?

It really shouldn't be about either/or...

I agree with this. I don't think raids need to be so exclusive though. Different difficulty tiers can easily solve that problem. However, the issue that arises is the casual players demand to be able to do the higher difficulties, even if they aren't really good enough to do it. Maybe alternate routes to gear will help, but from my experience players will want to do both routes and we are in the same shit storm again.

A common problem - but with a little imagination, easily dealt with.

Have a standard and hardmode for each raid.

There are a succession of bosses or fights whatever which gradually increase in difficulty, but above what might be seen as puggable, harder alternative modes of takedown appear - which you can choose to follow or not on a case by case basis.

Those that follow the easier standard route with 'help' from the game (or simply less adds, HP or whatever for the bosses et al) get a quarter of the gear tokens the one who opt for the hard mode get.

Also -hardmode takedowns give tabards or skins or whatever - soft rewards which allow visual differentiation without the gear etc. being different power-wise.

This has various advantages;

1. From pugs to hardcore raiders - no-one is denied the content

2. With the right starting diffculty and ramp-up of challenge, every raid of any ability get some action and some satisfaction for their time and effort.

3. The challenge profile is customisable by the raid leader during the raid - so it's a choice as to whether on any particular raid night they want to go for hardmode, and on which bosses etc.

4. Everyone eventually ends up withe the same rewards power-wise - the puggers don't get frozen out and the hardcore raiders get theirs quicker and with visual differentiation or guild reward fluff - for the bragging rights.

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The thing I don't like about raids is the leetism and the fact thet they can be set up to effectively allow only a small % of the playerbase to do them.

The guild-focus and sense of acheivement from challenging raids is a good game element though - one subsequently usually ruined by the need to grind farm-status bosses, but fun whilst you are learning the ropes.

I think raids have a place and should be put in with the following caveats;

1. The gear they give is the best in game - but is matched by solo, small group and craftable routes

2. Gear and other rewards come in a medium term timeframe so as not to require endless farming

I mean why not have the way in which raiding works change to get rid of the bad and keep most of the good?

It really shouldn't be about either/or...

As soon as you reward solo play the same as group play you disencentize the group play. If i can get something solo then its the much easier route than having to deal with others to get it.

Define "medium term" since how long things take are often subjective. Many players often consider things too long, even though developers generally have the metrics to say otherwise.

With one raid a week per raid instance, encounter etc. as a fairly standard benchmark - I would plant the 'medium term' flag at 3 months per tier of gear. Make gear sets customisable by some vendor, crafting etc, and you have longevity from the results as some go for multiple sets to allow for specialised gears.

Also - incrementally as 'gear creep' (however slow and well-managed) comes in, make the drop or token etc. rate for lower tiers higher - meaning it makes sense not to leapfrog raid encounters - so you are building your content up - not widowing large parts of it.

Parallel this with the solo, group and craftable content and everyone wins... especially if you can colour match (within sensible limits), craft style match and mix and match gear from different routes whilst still looking good. Both one-route and hybrid players can get there in their own way.

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Originally posted by nerovipus32

Originally posted by Quorina

Originally posted by nerovipus32

Originally posted by Quorina

Since people are talking about WoW, I would not say that the majority of players raid. That is a complete fallacy. I guess on some servers like Illidan or Stormrage a lot of people raid but on my old server, Moon Guard, it was estimated that only about 4% of people were seeing raid content, IF that. It was a RP server, true, but most people didn't even RP either. It was also the second most populated sever after Illidan. Sorry to inform you, but raids are not the driving force behind WoW's popularity, but its casual pve content. Achievements, dungeons, LFR, mount collecting, pet collecting, scenarios, etc. I am not saying you are willfully ignorant, but you are still wrong. I am willing to bet you play/played on a very heavily raid centric server.

Personally I've raided in WoW since Vanilla up to Mists of Pandaria (worst expansion EVER), when I quit the game. ESO doesn't have to have raid content to get me to play, as long as it has other PvE content to enjoy. If it is PvP centric you can forget it. That's one of the things that made me quit playing GW2. I am not against having PvP content, but I do not play heavy PvP games like I used to. I am 32 and simply do not have the twitch reflexes that I used to have. I will still enjoy PvP content on a casual basis, though.

I DO agree with other posters though, that raids should NOT have drastically better gear than other activites if they were in the game. Early Cata, for example, dungeons were extremely difficult to learn and master. So were raids, but they were about equally difficult compared to the dungeons. Yet the dungeons granted really crappy blue gear while the raid gear was unequivically better. Drastically better. I didn't see how this was fair, and I was a raider.

A lot (but not ALL) of raiders are extremely elitist and like to think they are special snowflakes. So many of them think that ALL purple gear is raid gear that should be gated behind raids only. "Why do you need raid gear if you don't raid?" was extremely common among the mouth-breathing elitists. Hated it.

just my two cents

you're 32 not 64 get a grip man. gw2 is more pve focused than pvp, the reason i left gw2 was because the wvw was terrible.

People start losing their twitch reflexes in their late 20s, early 30s. It's just not the same as when I was a teen or in my early 20s. I know I'm not 64. where it will be a lot worse :P

I played GW2 for a couple of weeks when it released and it was definitely more PvP centric than otherwise. The major thing to do back then when hitting 80 was WvWvW. That might've changed since I last played, but the bad impression was already there.

Really? Bernard Hopkins just won a world boxing title at 48. I think your reflexes will be ok for gaming for sometime yet.

Citing exceptions to the rule doesn't further your argument. I stopped playing twitch games back in my late 20's. Partly because I was tired of them and wanted to try something new, RPGs and partly because I couldn't react to things like I used to as a teenager. Now in my mid 40's, it is even more exagerated and twitch combat is even more frustrating and annoying than ever.

I believe that if Zenimax wants to stick with their current design philosophy, which is first and foremost to make an Elder Scrolls game that appeals to Elder Scrolls gamers, then that would mean placing an emphasis on game mechanics other than raiding and it would appear that their intent is to replace raiding with RvR content. Whatever they end up doing, they have already stated that many different paths of progression are included in the game and have verified that whether you group, solo, craft or PvP, you will be able to attain equitable loot progression from any of these paths. So, even if they do decide to go down the raiding path, raiders may not like it anyway as they will be forced to share the uber loot.

The thing I don't like about raids is the leetism and the fact thet they can be set up to effectively allow only a small % of the playerbase to do them.

The guild-focus and sense of acheivement from challenging raids is a good game element though - one subsequently usually ruined by the need to grind farm-status bosses, but fun whilst you are learning the ropes.

I think raids have a place and should be put in with the following caveats;

1. The gear they give is the best in game - but is matched by solo, small group and craftable routes

2. Gear and other rewards come in a medium term timeframe so as not to require endless farming

I mean why not have the way in which raiding works change to get rid of the bad and keep most of the good?

It really shouldn't be about either/or...

I agree with this. I don't think raids need to be so exclusive though. Different difficulty tiers can easily solve that problem. However, the issue that arises is the casual players demand to be able to do the higher difficulties, even if they aren't really good enough to do it. Maybe alternate routes to gear will help, but from my experience players will want to do both routes and we are in the same shit storm again.

A common problem - but with a little imagination, easily dealt with.

Have a standard and hardmode for each raid.

There are a succession of bosses or fights whatever which gradually increase in difficulty, but above what might be seen as puggable, harder alternative modes of takedown appear - which you can choose to follow or not on a case by case basis.

Those that follow the easier standard route with 'help' from the game (or simply less adds, HP or whatever for the bosses et al) get a quarter of the gear tokens the one who opt for the hard mode get.

Also -hardmode takedowns give tabards or skins or whatever - soft rewards which allow visual differentiation without the gear etc. being different power-wise.

This has various advantages;

1. From pugs to hardcore raiders - no-one is denied the content

2. With the right starting diffculty and ramp-up of challenge, every raid of any ability get some action and some satisfaction for their time and effort.

3. The challenge profile is customisable by the raid leader during the raid - so it's a choice as to whether on any particular raid night they want to go for hardmode, and on which bosses etc.

4. Everyone eventually ends up withe the same rewards power-wise - the puggers don't get frozen out and the hardcore raiders get theirs quicker and with visual differentiation or guild reward fluff - for the bragging rights.

Thing I love in mmorpgs is farm and grind. So yea, maybe for you not but many loves it :)

And now .. tell me, why should HC players/elitist who plays 10+ hours a day be on equal footing/have same gear as casual/avarage players? Do we live in communism? hmm

WildStar got this right, no more dumping down content so everyone can get into it. You cant beat it you cant beat it. End

If those casuals, bad players or whatever you want to call them arent good enought, dont have enought time, or whatever reason they have to not raid or not to be able to beat the bosses. That is their problem.

Strong wins, weak lose .. I dont drive Bentley and I dont make millions per month as those rich people do .. Do I complain? Ofcourse not. Even if someone did .. No one would ever care. There is no such thing as same footing ...

So tell me again, why should everyone be on same footing in mmorpg? Those who plays 15 hours a day and those who plays 2 hours a day? No one is denied content (except f2p games maybe), everyone can get and beat the hardest bosses if they put enought effort into it, if they dont (for whatever reasons.. kids, time, work, lazyness, ...) thats their problem and they should not be able to just do some easy mode of it ... just lol, this is why I left wow, gw2, etc. Everyone cares about noobs and casuals too much.

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No, game wont fail if it doesnt have raids, it will fail because its a bad game

Game wont thrive if it has raids, it will thrive because its a good game

MMOs can do very well without raiders, they make very small part of population anyway, especially those special snowflakes

Raids are not harder than any other content, not more worth than any other content and not more deserving than any other content, unforutnately few past archaic games conditioned few people to think so.

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And now .. tell me, why should HC players/elitist who plays 10+ hours a day be on equal footing/have same gear as casual/avarage players? Do we live in communism? hmm

Because, i *might* be wrong about this but i doubt it, they want to have >10k subs.

Its pure capitalism btw, you cater to those that pay yor bills and bring $$, those who are irrelevant...well...you may throw them a bone but dont expect much catering, or, even less, everything custom made to those.

I really dont know why are you looking into AAA titles. There are some niche games that actually cater to your needs. OOooh but noone wants to play those. Tough luck.

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And now .. tell me, why should HC players/elitist who plays 10+ hours a day be on equal footing/have same gear as casual/avarage players? Do we live in communism? hmm

Because, i *might* be wrong about this but i doubt it, they want to have >10k subs.

Its pure capitalism btw, you cater to those that pay yor bills and bring $$, those who are irrelevant...well...you may throw them a bone but dont expect much catering, or, even less, everything custom made to those.

Im all for raids but this backwards thinking that only the best loot in the game should come from raids is really dumb. I think it should be done fair. If we have 20 item slots then 5 items from raiding should be from best in slot, 5 from crafting, 5 from exploring and 5 from dungeons. They should all require = effort (time) to earn. So 3hr raiding for 3 purple cons / by 10 raidiers is 10hrs of work for each purple earned. 10hr of dungeon runs earns you enough dungeon tokins to buy 1 purple con. 2nd best in slot should come from all play types. Fair!!! Add raiding but dont treat them like they own the game. I like to raid but I do it because its fun. Isnt that what video games are about?

=-D Only on a forum can optimism be called the bad thing and pessimism is the good thing =-D