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Islam is not a religion, but a death cult of misogynistic pedophiles

This debate is only about Islam. It should be not be about any other religion and any discussion of other religions should be considered spam / trolling.

Those that reject this claim must offer evidence as to why Islam is indeed a religion and not as I have defined them in the OP.

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My position for this debate is that Islam, commonly thought of as a religion, is in fact not one. Instead, its teaches and the common actions by its follows suggest instead that it could be more accurately defined as a death cult of misogynistic pedophiles.

The Quran contains at least 109 verses that call Muslims to war with nonbelievers for the sake of Islamic rule. Some are quite graphic, with commands to chop off heads and fingers and kill infidels wherever they may be hiding. Muslims who do not join the fight are called 'hypocrites' and warned that Allah will send them to Hell if they do not join the slaughter.

Unfortunately, there are very few verses of tolerance and peace to abrogate or even balance out the many that call for nonbelievers to be fought and subdued until they either accept humiliation, convert to Islam, or are killed. Muhammad's own martial legacy - and that of his companions - along with the remarkable stress on violence found in the Quran have produced a trail of blood and tears across world history.

The following are a few examples of writings in the Quran that directly and specifically encourage violence towards infidels or non-believers: *NOTE: This is not my original research. I got these for several sources. My additions are noted by encompassing sentences or words in brackets [ ]

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Quran (2:191-193) - "And slay them wherever ye find them, and drive them out of the places whence they drove you out, for persecution [of Muslims] is worse than slaughter [of non-believers]... but if they desist, then lo! Allah is forgiving and merciful. And fight them until persecution is no more, and religion is for Allah."

Quran (2:244) - "Then fight in the cause of Allah, and know that Allah Heareth and knoweth all things."

Quran (2:216) - "Fighting is prescribed for you, and ye dislike it. But it is possible that ye dislike a thing which is good for you, and that ye love a thing which is bad for you. But Allah knoweth, and ye know not."

Quran (3:56) - "As to those who reject faith, I will punish them with terrible agony in this world and in the Hereafter, nor will they have anyone to help."

Quran (3:151) - "Soon shall We cast terror into the hearts of the Unbelievers, for that they joined companions with Allah, for which He had sent no authority".

Quran (4:89) - "They but wish that ye should reject Faith, as they do, and thus be on the same footing (as they): But take not friends from their ranks until they flee in the way of Allah (From what is forbidden). But if they turn renegades, seize them and slay them wherever ye find them; and (in any case) take no friends or helpers from their ranks." [ Basically, you cannot befriend infidels]

Quran (4:95) - "Not equal are those believers who sit (at home) and receive no hurt, and those who strive and fight in the cause of Allah with their goods and their persons. Allah hath granted a grade higher to those who strive and fight with their goods and persons than to those who sit (at home). Unto all (in Faith) Hath Allah promised good: But those who strive and fight Hath He distinguished above those who sit (at home) by a special reward,-" [This is important to understand because the Quran is teaching people that you get more of a reward in heaven by fighting and killing people rather than being a peaceful Muslim.]

Quran (4:104) - "And be not weak hearted in pursuit of the enemy; if you suffer pain, then surely they (too) suffer pain as you suffer pain..." [Simply put, no mercy]

Quran (5:33) - "The punishment of those who wage war against Allah and His messenger and strive to make mischief in the land is only this, that they should be murdered or crucified or their hands and their feet should be cut off on opposite sides or they should be imprisoned; this shall be as a disgrace for them in this world, and in the hereafter they shall have a grievous chastisement"

Quran (8:12) - "I will cast terror into the hearts of those who disbelieve. Therefore strike off their heads and strike off every fingertip of them"

Quran (8:15) - "O ye who believe! When ye meet those who disbelieve in battle, turn not your backs to them. (16)Whoso on that day turneth his back to them, unless maneuvering for battle or intent to join a company, he truly hath incurred wrath from Allah, and his habitation will be hell, a hapless journey's end." [Fight to the death or incur Allah's wrath]

Quran (8:39) - "And fight with them until there is no more fitna (disorder, unbelief) and religion should be only for Allah" [Doesn't sound like a religion of peace and tolerance, does it? An important note here is that the Quran commands Muslims to fight the infidel here until Islam is the only religion. Under this command, there is no hope for peace. Only death. ]

Quran (8:57) - "If thou comest on them in the war, deal with them so as to strike fear in those who are behind them, that haply they may remember." [ Be as ruthless as possible to set an example and cast fear into others ]

Quran (9:5) - "So when the sacred months have passed away, then slay the idolaters wherever you find them, and take them captives and besiege them and lie in wait for them in every ambush, then if they repent and keep up prayer and pay the poor-rate, leave their way free to them."
[ Kill them all, unless they convert]

Quran (9:14) - "Fight them, Allah will punish them by your hands and bring them to disgrace..." [Encouraging a God complex]

Quran (9:20) - "Those who believe, and have left their homes and striven with their wealth and their lives in Allah's way are of much greater worth in Allah's sight. These are they who are triumphant." [Essentially, Jihad is more important than anything. If you wish to be of the most worth, kill infidels. ]

I could go on and on and on....but I believe the point of Islam being a death cult is made.

Quran (4:34) - "Men have authority over women because God has made the one superior to the other, and because they spend their wealth to maintain them. Good women are obedient. They guard their unseen parts because God has guarded them. As for those from whom you fear disobedience, admonish them and forsake them in beds apart, and beat them."

Quran (4:11) - "A male shall inherit twice as much as a female." [ Males are superior to women ]

Quran (2:282) - "Call in two male witnesses from among you, but if two men cannot be found, then one man and two women whom you judge fit to act as witnesses..." [One mans word is worth 2 women's. Again, men are superior. ]

Quran (2:228) - "Women shall with justice have rights similar to those exercised against them, although men have a status above women."

Quran (4:24) - "[Forbidden to you are] married women, except those whom you own as slaves." [It's cool to rape women]

Quran (24:31) - "Enjoin believing women to turn their eyes away from temptation and to preserve their chastity; not to display their adornments (except such as are normally revealed); to draw their veils over their bosoms and not to display their finery except to their husbands, their fathers, their husbands' fathers, their sons, their step-sons, their brothers, their brothers' sons, their sisters' sons, their women-servants, and their slave-girls; male attendants lacking in natural vigour, and children who have no carnal knowledge of women. And let them not stamp their feet when walking so as to reveal their hidden trinkets." [ I view this as women are evil and encourage evil, sinful acts ]
4:34 . . . If you fear highhandedness from your wives, remind them [of the teaching of God], then ignore them when you go to bed, then hit them. If they obey you, you have no right to act against them. God is most high and great.

Verses that permit pedophilia:

[Quran. Surah al-Talaaq 65:4] - If a woman does not menstruate, either because she is very young or old and past menopause, then her ‘iddah is three months, because Allaah says

While we were sitting in the company of the Prophet a woman came to him and presented herself (for marriage) to him. The Prophet looked at her, lowering his eyes and raising them, but did not give a reply. One of his companions said, "Marry her to me O Allah's Apostle!" The Prophet asked (him), "Have you got anything?" He said, "I have got nothing." The Prophet said, "Not even an iron ring?" He said, "Not even an iron ring, but I will tear my garment into two halves and give her one half and keep the other half." The Prophet; said, "No. Do you know some of the Quran (by heart)?" He said, "Yes." The Prophet said, "Go, I have agreed to marry her to you with what you know of the Qur'an (as her Mahr)." 'And for those who have no courses (i.e. they are still immature). (65.4) And the 'Iddat for the girl BEFORE PUBERTY is three months (in the above Verse). (Sahih Al-Bukhari, Volume 7, Book 62, Number 63)

The Prophet wrote the (marriage contract) with ‘Aisha while she was six year old and consummated his marriage with her while she was nine years old and she remained with him for nine years (i.e. till his death). [Bukhari 7:88, p.65]

Martyrs for the cause of Allah enjoy an orgy of virgins and "perpetual youth" Qur'an (56:17) (otherwise known as "boys" Qur'an (52:24)). Qur'an (76:19) bluntly states, "And immortal boys will circulate among them, when you see them you will count them as scattered pearls."

So, there we have it. It's probably tl;dr...but, none the less.

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Clearly, they follow this doctrine. Here is a link to Islamic terrorist activity

Re: Islam is not a religion, but a death cult of misogynistic pedophiles

What is the particular context behind these verses? Are they applicable to all Muslims, at all times, in all places?

In all holy books for example, especially those of antiquity, we are to understand the text through the context of several lenses (literary style, author, audience, time, place, application, etc...). The argument seems to be assuming that the verses are commands that are applicable for all Muslims for all time in all situations. I think this is problematic and may result in an error in understanding the meaning of the verses. While I do not deny they are violent verses, I question the context in which the verses apply which is a necessary component of the op's argument. As it is, it's a assumption...but we need to draw that assumption out and evaluate it to see if it fits here.

The 2nd problem I see with it is the assumption that all Muslims are terrorists or engage in terrorist activity. It seems to commit the hasty generalization fallacy.

-=]Apokalupsis[=-Senior Administrator-------------------------I never considered a difference of opinion in politics, in religion, in philosophy, as cause for withdrawing from a friend. - Thomas Jefferson

Re: Islam is not a religion, but a death cult of misogynistic pedophiles

Originally Posted by Someguy

My position for this debate is that Islam, commonly thought of as a religion, is in fact not one. Instead, its teaches and the common actions by its follows suggest instead that it could be more accurately defined as a death cult of misogynistic pedophiles.

I don't see anything that precludes Islam from being a religion:

Quran (2:244) - "Then fight in the cause of Allah, and know that Allah Heareth and knoweth all things."Seems like a perfectly reasonable thing to do - to support your deity who is omniscient. If one doesn't support one's deity, what's the point?

Quran (3:56) - "As to those who reject faith, I will punish them with terrible agony in this world and in the Hereafter, nor will they have anyone to help."This just sounds like eternal damnation for those that do not follow the precepts of the religion. Again, a common feature in most religions.

Quran (8:12) - "I will cast terror into the hearts of those who disbelieve. Therefore strike off their heads and strike off every fingertip of them" Other than being strangely specific about the punishment against non-believers, this is just a device to keep people within the faith. How does that preclude it from being a religion just because you disagree with its methods?

I could go on and on and on....but I believe the point of Islam being a death cult is made. It seems you have already conceded it is a religious group of some kind - a cult, if you like. So what is it that is different between a cult and a religion?
Verses that indicate that Islam is misogynistic:How does being misogynistic preclude Islam from being a religion? We live in a country that where it was a struggle to pass an equal pay act! And most religions preclude women from being part of the priesthood anyway, and they're still religions.

In summary, the differences between a cult and a religion seem to be just numbers and organizational power, which Islam has plenty of. It is even the defining religion of many countries, which is more than one can say of most other religions - those countries enjoy an end-to-end deity-derived framework in almost every part of their lives: what could be more praising of a deity than to allow its doctrines unchanged for hundreds of years? What other religion has changed so little, largely unpolluted with modern ideas and human tweaks for their own convenience? Islam is probably the only religion still in its purest original form and whilst its strongest adherents can get fanatical in their defense of their religion, I think that the reason why there are so many terrorists is not so much based on religion but that the West has invaded their lands.

edit: One more thing: what other religion tries to get every country and every human under a single banner? Islam is no cult, it certainly has problems that don't accord with our modern thinking, but to disparage it as a cult seems to be a bit misguided and not particularly fruitful.

Re: Islam is not a religion, but a death cult of misogynistic pedophiles

There is nothing within the definition of religion that precludes it from advocating violence or any other act you may find objectionable. So while it may be a religion you object to, that does not mean it is not a religion.

Re: Islam is not a religion, but a death cult of misogynistic pedophiles

Unfortunately I have to agree with the above. While I think we all recognize that I am not a fan of Islam, it is unclear how you would distinguish between religion and death cult in your OP. If you could please elaborate on how the two are mutually exclusive that would be helpful.

"Suffering lies not with inequality, but with dependence." -Voltaire

"Fallacies do not cease to be fallacies because they become fashions.” -G.K. Chesterton

Re: Islam is not a religion, but a death cult of misogynistic pedophiles

Originally Posted by Sigfried

There is nothing within the definition of religion that precludes it from advocating violence or any other act you may find objectionable. So while it may be a religion you object to, that does not mean it is not a religion.

Originally Posted by Squatch347

Unfortunately I have to agree with the above. While I think we all recognize that I am not a fan of Islam, it is unclear how you would distinguish between religion and death cult in your OP. If you could please elaborate on how the two are mutually exclusive that would be helpful.

Re: Islam is not a religion, but a death cult of misogynistic pedophiles

Islam is a religion, according to the common definition of "religion." But it's not a particularly enlightened, inspiring or original religion, and its followers are currently the biggest threat to peace and human rights in the world.

Re: Islam is not a religion, but a death cult of misogynistic pedophiles

Originally Posted by KevinBrowning

But it's not a particularly enlightened, inspiring or original religion, and its followers are currently the biggest threat to peace and human rights in the world.

Enlightened: From what I know of it I mostly agree. Muslims I know personally tend to be good people and many of their values they derive from their religion. Their attitude about charity is often stronger than those of other religious people I know. Their sense of civic duty tends to also be very strong. Their sense of self control is also often very good. But keep in mind I know very few Muslims and they are a minority in my culture so they are probably exceptional individuals.

Inspiring: That is totally subjective. I am often inspired by Muslim architecture and art. Their history of poetry is impressive and their temples are often beautiful. Their greatest buildings can match Christianity in beauty and ingenuity. So I would say they are among the two most inspiring faiths int he world.

Original: I never realized that was a virtue for most religions, Its a classical faith so I would not expect originality especially.

Threat to peace: Definitely a threat, and I'd say the biggest currently in the world. There are a great many conflicts where they are instigating violence. In many cases they are fighting entrenched dictatorships, something I have some sympathy for, but they have proven they will create trouble in democratic states as well so I'd judge the overall effect is violence not just revolution. It's not the bulk of Islam causing the problems, most of them are not violent people from my experience and observation, but they have more problem children than any other current faith or ideology.

Threat to human rights: While they are a threat, and a fairly wide spread one, I'm not sure I'd say they are more significant that general dictatorship the world over. North Korea is far more oppressive than any Islamic state, and China is still pretty bad and both rule a great number of people. African warlords are often the most brutal of all, and come in all flavors. I have a lot of criticism for Islam in its attitude towards other religions and towards women. I guess for me they would have to share "first place" with secular authoritarian states.

Re: Islam is not a religion, but a death cult of misogynistic pedophiles

You did not read the Qu'ran so all of these verses have been taken out of context. You copy and pasted from a Anti-islamist website obviously. I can do the same and show you there is morality in Islam. Murder and injustice is not tolerated, and all religions are tolerated in Islam. Your post is ignorant and hateful. You should read more. Your view on Islam is a common right wing extremist myth designed to divide people of faith and cause the very war you accuse muslims of. The Qu'ran does not condone killing of anyone except in times of war and persecution.

“And fight in the way of Allah against those who fight against you, but be not aggressive. Surely Allah loves not the aggressors” (2:190).

“And if they incline to peace, incline thou also to it, and trust in Allah. Surely He is the Hearer, the Knower. And if they intend to deceive thee, then surely Allah is sufficient for thee” (8:61, 62).

“Allah forbids you not respecting those who fight you not for religion, nor drive you forth from your homes, that you show them kindness and deal with them justly. Surely Allah loves the doers of justice. Allah forbids you only respecting those who fight you for religion, and drive you forth from your homes and help (others) in your expulsion, that you make friends of them; and whoever makes friends of them, these are the wrongdoers” (60:8, 9).

2:62 Surely those who believe, and those who are Jews, and the Christians, and the Sabians, whoever believes in Allah and the Last day and does good, they shall have their reward from their Lord, and there is no fear for them, nor shall they grieve.

2:109 Many of the followers of the Book wish that they could turn you back into unbelievers after your faith, out of envy from themselves, (even) after the truth has become manifest to them; but pardon and forgive, so that Allah should bring about His command; surely Allah has power over all things.

Also all of the verses you posted have been translated incorrectly. So everything you have posted is very dis-ingenious and misleading.

For example look at the verses regarding women. Then read the garbage you copy and pasted off the bigot website.

2:223 Your wives are a tilth for you, so go into your tilth when you like, and do good beforehand for yourselves, and be careful (of your duty) to Allah, and know that you will meet Him, and give good news to the believers.

2:228 And the divorced women should keep themselves in waiting for three courses; and it is not lawful for them that they should conceal what Allah has created in their wombs, if they believe in Allah and the last day; and their husbands have a better right to take them back in the meanwhile if they wish for reconciliation; and they have rights similar to those against them in a just manner, and the men are a degree above them, and Allah is Mighty, Wise.

4:34 Men are the maintainers of women because Allah has made some of them to excel others and because they spend out of their property; the good women are therefore obedient, guarding the unseen as Allah has guarded; and (as to) those on whose part you fear desertion, admonish them, and leave them alone in the sleeping-places and beat them; then if they obey you, do not seek a way against them; surely Allah is High, Great.

Re: Islam is not a religion, but a death cult of misogynistic pedophiles

Michael - The Qur'an by itself is a very insubstantial text to cover what is in effect a very Political 'religion'/'cult'/whatever. The Qur'an does not fully cover even one of the 5 Pillars, you require the Trilogy - the Qur'an AND Muhammad’s words and deeds, called the Sunna. The Sunna is found in two different texts—the Sira and Hadith. It also helps to read up on the Tabari and other texts and tracts, and indeed the Yemeni/Sana'a Parchments.

The biggest percentage of the Qur'an is about how Muslims should treat kufrs/non-Muslims, and when read 'chronologically' there is little charity spared for non-Muslims after Muhammad leaves for Medina.

Don't be friends with non-Muslims. They all hate you and want to ruin you. 3:118

We shall cast terror into the hearts of those who disbelieve. Their habitation is the Fire {Hell] 3:151

Allah will bestow a vast reward on those who fight in religious wars. 4:74

The disbelievers are an open enemy to you. 4:101

There is loads more stuff that has a similar echo.

"We don't see things as they are, we see them as we are." - Anais Nin.Emitte lucem et veritatem - Send out light and truth.'Fere libenter homines id quod volunt credunt' - Julius Caesar (rough translation, 'Men will think what they want to think')Kill my boss? Do I dare live out the American dream? - Homer Simpson.

Re: Islam is not a religion, but a death cult of misogynistic pedophiles

Fruit and Nut,

Where are you getting this stuff from your verses are also mistranslated, and incomplete for example 3:118. In my opinion this verse is saying do not make intimate friends with those who do not believe in righteousness. See the problem is it is difficult to translate Arabic to english and keep it in context. Look at how many translations, and versions of this are on this one site. http://www.islamawakened.com/quran/3/118/default.htm Also note that none of these translations are similar to the ones you posted?

All the verses you posted are either incomplete, and incorrectly translated. Do you know many muslims? Do they attack you and your beliefs?

Example 3:118

O ye who believe! Take not for intimates others than your own folk, who would spare no pains to ruin you; they love to hamper you. Hatred is revealed by (the utterance of) their mouths, but that which their breasts hide is greater. We have made plain for you the revelations if ye will understand.

3:151. We shall cast terror into the hearts of those who disbelieve, because they joined others in worship with Allâh, for which He had sent no authority; their abode will be the Fire and how evil is the abode of the Zâliműn (polytheists and wrong-doers).

4:74 So let those fight in the cause of Allah who sell the life of this world for the Hereafter. And he who fights in the cause of Allah and is killed or achieves victory - We will bestow upon him a great reward.

4:101 And when you travel throughout the land, there is no blame upon you for shortening the prayer, [especially] if you fear that those who disbelieve may disrupt [or attack] you. Indeed, the disbelievers are ever to you a clear enemy.

Re: Islam is not a religion, but a death cult of misogynistic pedophiles

Originally Posted by Michael

Fruit and Nut,

Where are you getting this stuff from your verses are also mistranslated, and incomplete for example 3:118. In my opinion this verse is saying do not make intimate friends with those who do not believe in righteousness. See the problem is it is difficult to translate Arabic to english and keep it in context. Look at how many translations, and versions of this are on this one site. http://www.islamawakened.com/quran/3/118/default.htm Also note that none of these translations are similar to the ones you posted?

Yeah, this is pretty much the same nonsense you guys repeat over and over again. "Its mistranslated!!!!!!!111!!11!"

No, I believe it is accurate. Reason being, your own people's actions show them to be true.

Re: Islam is not a religion, but a death cult of misogynistic pedophiles

Originally Posted by Someguy

I am posting the exact versus' as they appear.

You are posting the exact verse as they appear off a website that changed them and took them out of context. If you simply look at the verses you posted then look at the real unedited verses I posted you would see that. But obviously you are not interested in truth only lies to meet your preconceived ignorant conclusions.

Sir you should be ashamed of yourself. Good luck there is no sense for me to waste any more time on you.

Re: Islam is not a religion, but a death cult of misogynistic pedophiles

Originally Posted by Someguy

I am posting the exact versus' as they appear.

Someguy, is it possible to pluck verses from the Bible that are violent and proclaim that the Bible teaches violence, then conclude that inherently, Christianity is a violent religion?

Now I'm not saying that Islam is on an equal playing field with Christianity. As a Christian, I do believe that Christianity is the one true religion. However, I see it as problematic to not be consistent. I believe the same system or method that we use to analyze one religion or Holy Book, ought to be applied to all. This avoids hypocrisy and allows those philosophies, Holy Books, religions that are not guilty of being a false religion (on the grounds in which we tested them) or are not guilty of being oppressive or violent, etc... to surface as well.

In other words, I think that if we were to use the exact same methodology that you are employing here vs Islam, and apply that to Christianity, we could come to the same conclusion. And as a result, 1 or 2 conclusions could be made...that either both religions are equally as violent or that the method we used was flawed. I don't think that we could apply the same standard to both and get a different result in other words.

-=]Apokalupsis[=-Senior Administrator-------------------------I never considered a difference of opinion in politics, in religion, in philosophy, as cause for withdrawing from a friend. - Thomas Jefferson

Re: Islam is not a religion, but a death cult of misogynistic pedophiles

Originally Posted by Apokalupsis

Someguy, is it possible to pluck verses from the Bible that are violent and proclaim that the Bible teaches violence, then conclude that inherently, Christianity is a violent religion?

Now I'm not saying that Islam is on an equal playing field with Christianity. As a Christian, I do believe that Christianity is the one true religion. However, I see it as problematic to not be consistent. I believe the same system or method that we use to analyze one religion or Holy Book, ought to be applied to all. This avoids hypocrisy and allows those philosophies, Holy Books, religions that are not guilty of being a false religion (on the grounds in which we tested them) or are not guilty of being oppressive or violent, etc... to surface as well.

In other words, I think that if we were to use the exact same methodology that you are employing here vs Islam, and apply that to Christianity, we could come to the same conclusion. And as a result, 1 or 2 conclusions could be made...that either both religions are equally as violent or that the method we used was flawed. I don't think that we could apply the same standard to both and get a different result in other words.

Of course it is possible. The difference is, however, Christians do not, as a majority, take those type of versus and act on them. You dont see Christians stoning women or plucking out eyes in the name of their Christian God. You do, however, see Muslims doing this. Now, certainly it wouldnt be accurate to say that all Muslims are like that. But, I feel quite comfortable in saying that a far greater majority "abuse" the words of the Koran than do Christians "abuse" the words of the Bible.