FORT HOOD, Texas — Spc. Charles Graner (search) Jr., the Army reservist shown in smiling photos beside naked Iraqi prisoners, was sentenced to 10 years in military prison after telling jurors he was ordered to abuse detainees and "didn't enjoy what I did there."

<blockquote><font class="small">Quote SecaucusFats:</font><hr> Graner was scapegoated, there will be more grunts scapegoated. <hr /></blockquote>
This is an understatement.
A number of CIA people refused to testify, based on the Fifth Ammendment. What does that tell you?

This guy got screwed by the government that he volunteered to serve. /ccboard/images/graemlins/tongue.gif

SpiderMan

01-17-2005, 07:50 AM

I have no doubt that his superiors knew about and probably encouraged what he was doing. After all, it was something they could milk for results now and distance themselves from later. It's a shame they can't share his punishment.

On the other hand, I also feel that Graner was a sadist who enjoyed what he was doing. That is the story told by the notes he made on the back of photos he sent home to friends.

Bottom line, it's scary to think of being stopped late at night by a cop like him.

SpiderMan

Qtec

01-17-2005, 08:49 AM

Wasnt it Gonzales who called the Geneva Con, "quaint and obsolete".
I think the fact that pictures and video were taken of the abuse shows that they were not afraid of being caught. ie they thought they werent doing anything wrong.
Q

Ross

01-18-2005, 05:28 PM

Spiderman, you nailed it exactly. Graner was no innocent grunt just following orders. He was a sicko indulging his own sadism, and deserves his punishment or more.

But higher ups are responsible as well since they showed no leadership in controlling a-holes like him. From interviews I've seen with Karpinski, she seemed hapless and clueless about what people under her command were doing. Plus you have the CIA guys and even civilian contracted "interrogators" secretly encouraging some forms of abuse or torture or whatever you want to call it. So chaos ran supreme -- and the Graner\Lynndie England type people were bound to take advantage of the lack of oversight.

So, I think Graner is a scapegoat in the sense that he shouldn't be the only one facing real punishment for his/her actions but not in the sense of being an innocent who didn't deserve his punishment. He deserved his ten years, but others deserve similar punishments as well.

DavidMorris

01-18-2005, 06:42 PM

Well said, Ross. I agree completely.

Qtec

01-18-2005, 08:11 PM

<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Ross:</font><hr> Spiderman, you nailed it exactly. Graner was no innocent grunt just following orders. He was a sicko indulging his own sadism, and deserves his punishment or more. <font color="blue"> Being a 'sicko'isnt a crime. </font color>

But higher ups are responsible as well since they showed no leadership in controlling a-holes like him. From interviews I've seen with Karpinski, she seemed hapless and clueless about what people under her command were doing. Plus you have the CIA guys and even civilian contracted "interrogators" secretly encouraging some forms of abuse or torture or whatever you want to call it.
<font color="blue"> What secret ? </font color>
So chaos ran supreme -- and the Graner\Lynndie England type people were bound to take advantage of the lack of oversight.

So, I think Graner is a scapegoat in the sense that he shouldn't be the only one facing real punishment for his/her actions but not in the sense of being an innocent who didn't deserve his punishment. He deserved his ten years, but others deserve similar punishments as well.
<hr /></blockquote>
Although he deserves his punishment, the others in these photos are equally guilty. As far as i know, the others in this photo have not even been identified, never mind being charged.
Q