The most effective prayer is to pray that the people there have enough intelligence and courage not to be taken in by their Islamic leaders.

Most religions have more nominal adherents than true adherents. The problem with Islam is that it is particularly easy for a nominal adherent to be radicalized. All that a Muslim cleric has to do is to tell a nominal adherent that it is their duty to bring all non-Muslims into the religion, even through violent means.

"The renowned Muslim historian and philosopher Ibn Khaldun (d. 1406) clearly articulates this division:
In the Muslim community, jihad is a religious duty because of the universalism of the Muslim mission and the obligation to convert everybody to Islam either by persuasion or by force. The other religious groups did not have a universal mission, and the jihad was not a religious duty for them, save only for purposes of defense. But Islam is under obligation to gain power over other nations."http://www.meforum.org/2538/taqiyya-islam-rules-of-war" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Nominal adherents can be easily persuaded to sacrifice themselves literally for the religion because the teachings itself makes it very easy for that to happen.

Prayers will help. But so will the truth. Islamic militancy and Hamas is the result of 60 years of living in an open or prison camp. The cause is the legitimate grievance of Palestinians wanting their land and homes back. They want out of the prison camps.

Nemo wrote:Prayers will help. But so will the truth. Islamic militancy and Hamas is the result of 60 years of living in an open or prison camp. The cause is the legitimate grievance of Palestinians wanting their land and homes back. They want out of the prison camps.

If you read the article I posted, it argues that while there is room for strategic compromise in Islamic tenets, there is no room for a real compromise within those tenets.

In the occupied territories Hamas is a symptom, not the cause. That is a false flag operation. After 60 years of oppression the Palestinians are radicalized. If you don't redress their legitimate grievances they will not give up. They have offered peace for decades despite Israel's lies. Israel always poisons the deal. "Recognizing Israel" includes forgoing all legal title or payment for your stolen land and Israel has the right to intervene militarily in the Palestian territories during the truce. Who would agree to a peace like that? Stop believing the lies in the media and get informed. Listen to Chomsky and get some real information.

Nemo wrote:Prayers will help. But so will the truth. Islamic militancy and Hamas is the result of 60 years of living in an open or prison camp. The cause is the legitimate grievance of Palestinians wanting their land and homes back. They want out of the prison camps.

If you read the article I posted, it argues that while there is room for strategic compromise in Islamic tenets, there is no room for a real compromise within those tenets.

So, if I am reading what you say correctly: The cause of the Palestinian conflict is Islam, and not the illegal occupation of Palestinian land?

"My religion is not deceiving myself."Jetsun Milarepa 1052-1135 CE

"Butchers, prostitutes, those guilty of the five most heinous crimes, outcasts, the underprivileged: all are utterly the substance of existence and nothing other than total bliss."The Supreme Source - The Kunjed Gyalpo
The Fundamental Tantra of Dzogchen Semde

Nemo wrote:In the occupied territories Hamas is a symptom, not the cause. That is a false flag operation. After 60 years of oppression the Palestinians are radicalized. If you don't redress their legitimate grievances they will not give up. They have offered peace for decades despite Israel's lies. Israel always poisons the deal. "Recognizing Israel" includes forgoing all legal title or payment for your stolen land and Israel has the right to intervene militarily in the Palestian territories during the truce. Who would agree to a peace like that? Stop believing the lies in the media and get informed. Listen to Chomsky and get some real information.

This is a very short term view ... Yes, Palestinian were radical from start, they wanted to trough all "jews" to the sea. After having sold, piece by piece, some desert land that kibbutzin did transform in oasis full of water, fruits and vegetables, they are pretending to have it back. It's time that those who speak loud in the name of justice start to learn what really happen in this part of the world, since 60 years and more.
Those who runned Israel at the beginnin were all left, socialits orented, they wanted to share and make some kind of paradise. After years of villainy from arabian around, we have now a right (extrem) government. It's time to relativize ... and make a new start from all.
And don't expect I start a discussion about!

Sönam

By understanding everything you perceive from the perspective of the view, you are freed from the constraints of philosophical beliefs.
By understanding that any and all mental activity is meditation, you are freed from arbitrary divisions between formal sessions and postmeditation activity.
- Longchen Rabjam -

Nemo wrote:Prayers will help. But so will the truth. Islamic militancy and Hamas is the result of 60 years of living in an open or prison camp. The cause is the legitimate grievance of Palestinians wanting their land and homes back. They want out of the prison camps.

If you read the article I posted, it argues that while there is room for strategic compromise in Islamic tenets, there is no room for a real compromise within those tenets.

So, if I am reading what you say correctly: The cause of the Palestinian conflict is Islam, and not the illegal occupation of Palestinian land?

Precisely that ... like in many other parts of the world. Islam is a very ... specific religion.

Sönam

By understanding everything you perceive from the perspective of the view, you are freed from the constraints of philosophical beliefs.
By understanding that any and all mental activity is meditation, you are freed from arbitrary divisions between formal sessions and postmeditation activity.
- Longchen Rabjam -

Sherab Dorje wrote:So, if I am reading what you say correctly: The cause of the Palestinian conflict is Islam, and not the illegal occupation of Palestinian land?

Precisely that ... like in many other parts of the world. Islam is a very ... specific religion.

Sönam

So why was there no Palestinian problem before the illegal occupation (starting with the British in 1920), given that Palestinians were Muslims then too? Why was there no lasting peace agreement with the PLO which was a secular organisation?

I'll tell you why: because it has nothing to do with Islam.

"My religion is not deceiving myself."Jetsun Milarepa 1052-1135 CE

"Butchers, prostitutes, those guilty of the five most heinous crimes, outcasts, the underprivileged: all are utterly the substance of existence and nothing other than total bliss."The Supreme Source - The Kunjed Gyalpo
The Fundamental Tantra of Dzogchen Semde

Nemo wrote:Prayers will help. But so will the truth. Islamic militancy and Hamas is the result of 60 years of living in an open or prison camp. The cause is the legitimate grievance of Palestinians wanting their land and homes back. They want out of the prison camps.

If you read the article I posted, it argues that while there is room for strategic compromise in Islamic tenets, there is no room for a real compromise within those tenets.

So, if I am reading what you say correctly: The cause of the Palestinian conflict is Islam, and not the illegal occupation of Palestinian land?

In the article that I posted (assuming that you have read it), it was basically making the point that no resolution is possible because the Islamic teachings create the conditions which make any form of compromise that is needed for a resolution impossible. In other words, the solution must be in accordance with Islam. Anything short of that will not work.

In brief, while it is possible to say that the cause of the Palestinian conflict may not be attributable to Islam (although my personal opinion is that it is one of the causes), Islam makes it impossible to resolve the conflict as long as the resolution plan allows the Jihadists to make the claim that the resolution is not in accord with Islam. The points raised in the article indicates that it is very easy to the Jihadists to do that.

Sherab wrote:In the article that I posted (assuming that you have read it), it was basically making the point that no resolution is possible because the Islamic teachings create the conditions which make any form of compromise that is needed for a resolution impossible. In other words, the solution must be in accordance with Islam. Anything short of that will not work.

In brief, while it is possible to say that the cause of the Palestinian conflict may not be attributable to Islam (although my personal opinion is that it is one of the causes), Islam makes it impossible to resolve the conflict as long as the resolution plan allows the Jihadists to make the claim that the resolution is not in accord with Islam. The points raised in the article indicates that it is very easy to the Jihadists to do that.

1. Not all Muslims are Jihadists. As a matter of fact the vast majority of Muslims are not Jihadists. 2. You avoided answering the second part of my question: Why was there no lasting peace agreement with the PLO, which was a secular organisation?

I'll tell you why: because it has nothing to do with Islam.

Just like the original 1920 occupation of Palestine had nothing to do with Islam, so the current situation has nothing to do with Islam.

"My religion is not deceiving myself."Jetsun Milarepa 1052-1135 CE

"Butchers, prostitutes, those guilty of the five most heinous crimes, outcasts, the underprivileged: all are utterly the substance of existence and nothing other than total bliss."The Supreme Source - The Kunjed Gyalpo
The Fundamental Tantra of Dzogchen Semde

It's scary how well Israel has carried out the "big lie" and completely distorted their culpability in the conflict. A bunch of Europeans came to Palestine claiming it was their land. Once established they took all the property of it's actual historical residents. Some Palestinians still have the deeds to their farms and homes. One day Israeli's knocked on the door and they had to leave for the world's largest outdoor prison. As the decades passed they became militant. They tried diplomacy but Israel countered with endless lies about ethnic destiny and poisoned chalice peace deals. Now they are the majority in the country no longer feel they have to accept the current oppression. They will not back down until their legitimate issues are redressed and Israel will cave or lose support of America. Israel without America is toast IMO.

The other Arab nations: not helping the Palestinians, not giving the Palestinians their land when they had full control and power of all Palestinian lands pre-1967 (West Bank, Gaza strip, and Golan Heights all owned and controlled by Jordan, Egypt, and Syria from 1947-1967. The Arab nations could have set-up an independent Palestinian nation during this time, but didn't).

The U.S.: for one-sided foreign policy and taking too many decades before finally recognizing that Palestinians should have an independent nation.