Wednesday, March 10, 2010

"Army Does Not Want More Than 124 Arjun Tanks. It Is Official"

The month-long "comparitive" trials of the indigenous Arjun main battle tank end on March 15, but the DRDO's Combat Vehicles R&D Establishment (CVRDE) will have to gear up to face its worst fear, this time officially -- the Army will not order more tanks over and above the 124 already ordered. I've just spoken with a senior Defence Ministry official, who said that the DRDO would be formally told later this month that no further orders will be placed on the current configuration of the Arjun by the Army, and that further orders would be only possible on the Mark-2 or the FMBT as and when they are ready. So there it is: two regiments of the Arjun Mark-1. No more.

In July 2008, the DRDO had told the government in a note, "If the army does not place further orders for Arjun we cannot even amortize the infrastructural investments made by the government for its productionisation, thereby resulting in wasteful expenditure. The Army should place orders for additional 300 tanks before we can break even."

The official I spoke to says that concerns about recovery of investment by the Heavy Vehicles Factor (HVF) and CVRDE are being addressed by Secretary (Defence Production) and some sort of "back-up measures" will be taken.

He explained, "The point is the Army has been putting up its submission that it already has a main battle tank in the T-90 and that inducting the Arjun in its present configuration will be a logistical challenge. They have been repeatedly saying that Arjun must be progressed to a more modern design and configuration so that it can find greater usability in the Army. There might be some ill-feeling because after all it is a prestige issue also, but that is separate. Now everyone is in agreement that the Arjun in its present configuration is a closed chapter. It has to move forward."

The official also echoed what DRDO chief VK Saraswat said at his recent press conference about how the trials currently on in Rajasthan are not true comparative trials, but rather "to identify the optimum placement, positioning and deployment of Arjun MBT taking into account its capabilities and logistical signature." He explained that there was no longer any question of testing the Arjun's capabilities. "User trials have been carried out extensively and the tank has been accepted as a proven platform. But the Army feels it is a dated design, though the Army also observes that it is an excellent platform for further development indigenously," he added.

The DRDO lobby is a powerful one, and they won't like any of this. Can they pull off the impossible? This month, we'll know. What we know for sure is that the DRDO wants an order of at least 176 more Arjuns from the Army to arm three more regiments.

57 comments
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High time someone takes the army to task,make it accountable and expose it by filing an public interest litigation in the court. The Army should not be able to squander public money on foreign imports without any reason.

F*ck the army, rather the idiot old staff officer who would have forced this decision. No brains all brawn. These same idiots who for the sake of their petty egos forced this decision, will be content to send young 20-30 year olds to their deaths in the flaming piece of junk that is the T-90. Same as Kargil. Idiot staff sitting and sipping whisky and talking of kicking the Pakis out, while YOs and JCOs had to crawl up under blistering fire to dislodge the Pakis. As they say, every large organizations biggest enemy is change, and its own peoples resistance to change. The Army is a perfect example.

Can we pull all Armed forces, neta and babus to court for they have been shipping billion dollars of Indian money and jobs to western world for their personal gains.

Can we file an RTI on why they have decided not to order more indegenious product rather go after foreign product.

I do not deny we have to purchase some weapons from foreign land but 90% of our arms are imported by our desi armed forces. May be we have to import foreign armed forces, neta and babus as our very own have brought in no better development or R& D jobs in defence sector.

I will like to these people held accountable for all the mess in defence related R&D.

At times I feel, I am lucky doing mathematical modeling research in foreign land as these bunch of thugs do not need Indians but they would prefer gora skinned foreigners and lick their ars. Further these bunch of thugs have their bacchas in foreign university, where their bucchas are living a rich life.

Its extremely sad to see the IA doing this. Corruption is rife and the Tehelka scandal as well as the recent Sukhna land scam only go to show the rot that has set in at the top of the IA's rungs. As Admiral Vishnu Bhagwat had said, only the pliant and the corrupt were being promoted in order to co-opt them into the arms deals along with politcians and arms vendors. In New Delhi's Ministry of Finance circles, the Russian arms dealers and their influence on the IA is well known.

the IA will come to regret this decision the day a war is thrust upon them and their armour will be exposed for what it truly is. I can only feel very sorry for the jawans and officers who will be forced to sit in cramped conditions, suffer incredible heat, and then be blown to smithereens when a single projectile hits their tanks. Till then the Army's top brass can keep living in a fantasy land that makes them think that Combat Improved Ajeya T-72s and T-90S with a host of systems added on afterwards (when the system's vulnerabilities are exposed) will be able to dominate tank battles against the PA.

This is a report on the field trials for penetration on T-90 and T-80U tanks in Russia. Keep in mind that it was the purchase of the T-80UD by Pakistan from Ukraine that caused the IA to panic and buy the T-90S.

The IA's top brass deliberately didn't even include the Shtora-1 EOCMDAS systems in the T-90S contract just so that the contract price could be kept low and they could justify buying hundreds of these T-72 follow-ons instead of the Arjun saying that the Arjun cost Rs. 5 crore more per piece. This has been a procurement scam since the very beginning and deserves to be thoroughly investigated and the officers responsible for it should be held accountable.

And if readers see the results of the field tests conducted in Russia in 1999, they'll be shocked that India's main MBT, the T-90 cannot even withstand a Rocket Propelled Grenade (RPG-29) the kind that terrorists and infantry both carry along with them. And the shocking part is that it cannot sustain a RPG-29 hit even in the front section which has the thickest armour. multiple hits that erode ERA will almost guarantee that RPGs and ATGMs will penetrate the T-90S and T-80Us.

Why didn't the IA conduct such armour trials in front of DRDO and neutral sources for both the T-90S and the Arjun and publish the data to defend their argument to continue buying T-90s instead of Arjuns? Why should Indian citizens sit and watch as our taxpayer money is thrown away by corrupt IA and MoD procurement people? I hope this decision of the IA is taken up by the media and exposed for what it is.

Please go to this link and read it carefully. The results are shocking both for the T-90 and T-80U.

Reminds me of Rang De Basanti, Mig-21(Flying coffins) and IAF. Shiv, let us all come together and contact some film producer( I know one) to expose rot in the IA through most popular desi media, a movie. Seriously, we cannot let the rascals screw up our decades of efforts and throw away public money for foreign orders.

Anything short of replacing all T-72s with Arjuns is Treason.Anything lightweight in mechanized and armoured divisions is nothing but a Coffin and a doctrine built around transporting them is a doctrine of transporting jawans "pre-packaged" in their Coffins, nothing else.

May God punish these traitors among the protectors with the worst diseases.

Can anyont say clearly that is Army saying that Arjun is not good option for army? but T90 is better Option... We cant take any chance whatever it cost... if its not good not good... Indian made Indian made what always Indian made.. If we cant make satisfactory product after so many years than no reason to buy it..

And the T-90 is modern right? What a joke. The Arjun could kick it's butt head to head. How much kickback and Natashas are involved? Gotta hand it to the Russians. They might have inferior products but they will give you money and women to swallow their inadequacies. Shame on you Indian Army.

The Arjun controversy exposes the Indian Nation down to its naked roots. The Army is playing with the Indian defence, the scientific establishment and the resolute efforts of untold Indians. There is a huge conspiracy about, apart from the usual reasons of corruption and politics. The Russians with Indians as willing partners are destroying our defences, by exercising complete control over the qualitative and quantitative aspects of Indian military hardware. The aircraft carrier Admiral Gorshkov, the Indo - US military transport plane being manufactured in Russia, all point to this phenomenon. We are losing not only countless jobs but making our nation completely dependent on foreign powers who sway from one end to another on a daily basis. There are two glaring defects in our military arsenal. (1) The capability to indigenize relative to our enemies viz. Arjun vs the Chinese T99, JF-17, JF-10 vs LCA, NAG vs its Chinese counterpart, Chinese SAMs equivalent to S-300 vs what with now the Israelis occupying that space etc, etc, etc. It is quite clear by now that the entire Indian military is partial to imported products from wherever they arrive. The big joke is then, how the military deigns to patronize the skills of Indian scientists. There could be nothing more insufferable and treacherous. The media has played a damning role in this venture, the leaders being none other than the Indian Express, the vociferously didactic enforcer of Globalisation - read - Importisation. Can anyone for once believe that the Chinese succeeded in building world class military products from the get - go? No, no one has. You should read what atrocious garbage the military talks on compensating the exchequer for the capital expenditures lost on the Arjun Project. Do these people have any sense of patriotism and will they ever fight for India?(2) The military has no ideas. It is not a student body and only buys products. The training is as shallow as their focus on innovation. The reflections of this pathetic attribute find an echo everywhere. The LCA, Arjun, Missile, Akash, Nag become outdated and irrelevant when ready for induction. Is there a coincidence or a pattern of deliberate malafide appearing as naivete? There is a lack of ideas in everything from structure, doctrine, logistics, products, networking, planning...take a guess. Truly, as one commentator in this thread suggested...India should outsource its military defence, its sportsmen etc.How painful it is to know that the Army purchased 2000 T-90s from the Russians already eliminating Arjun for no reason excepting personal greed! Also, thousands of Milans thereby eliminating Nag.THE ARMY MUST BUY ARJUN IN PLENTY AND SYSTEMATICALLY INDIGENIZE IT COMPLETELY. THAT IS THE WILL OF THE PEOPLE OF INDIA!

Karthik, corruption is endemic in all walks of life. If criminals get elected to government, what’s stopping many from abusing their positions for personal/ political gain? Plenty though are stupid, incompetent &/or lazy. This Arjun decision can’t been taken without a lot of oversight and with good reasons for it. IA has backed off the present Arjun but is encouraging Mk-2 version. Significant Army $$ should also came by way of FMBT project. DRDO ought to have Mk-2 done without too much difficulty. It could insist on a fairly big order. In the meanwhile new tanks are being inducted.. and that should be sufficient.

This is the lowest point in the history of CORRUPT weapons procurement policies of the Indian Army.

Yes, we may be civilians, but all independent analysts have confirmed that the Arjun is a far better tank than the T-90. Yet, the Army inducts T-90 (with all it's teething glitches), while summarily rejecting the Arjun on more flimsical excuses.

All this, exacerbated by a heavily biased DRDO-bashing media, sealed the fate of the Arjun.

To hell with the Indian Army. DRDO must now try to salvage the effort and cost of the Arjun project by trying to export it to friendly countries. African nations, Lat-Am nations and even middle-Eastern nations are good prospective buyers for the Arjun.

Wah meri India! How did we allow these corrupt babus to take the lives of the youngsters that will fight for our freedom in those wretched tincans? Why is there no outcry at this travesty at the hands of the Natashas? Goddamned cowards, each one of us - we deserve to get our asses kicked and our youngsters killed for letting this level of corruption to set into the system.

Let aam junta buy Arjuns and create a separate armour regiment comprising of volunteers alone. This would send a message to the people concerned. Logistics is hardly an excuse. There are blokes I guess who don't want to move ass and adapt. The same higher ups ignored several intrusion warnings and were busy socializing when the heights were being occupied by PA and their Jihadi half brothers in Kargil. It took a shell landing dangerously close to the officers mess to shake them out of their drunken stupor. The Army was an institution the whole nation looked up to. When did they start behaving like civilian clowns? All those Lt.Cols with their pot bellies by 35 are an eyesore and dying by 40 of cardiac arrest is a shame. Incidences of cardiac arrest are so high, it prompted the heads to actually push to reduce the quota of daaru per individual, but I guess it didn't go down too well with many and was probably shot down by some heavy weight for obvious reasons.

It is such a sad situation to see most of the above comments shaming the army (to the point of accusing them of treason, corruption and what not). This is the same institution which inspite of almost everything else (of society, government etc.) failing in this country has stood by and maintained the sovereignty, integrity and safety of this country.Shame on you people for being thankless and over-opinionated...!!!I personally also am disappointed that Arjuns are not being inducted in larger nos., but will never jump the gun and accuse this institution of all the garbage written above.There can be reasons (however ridiculous they may sound to us "arm chair generals" and "supposed experts") that we aren't aware of.

Ahem, let's see what the traditional DRDO-bashers, messrs Rajat Pandit and Manu Pubby have to say on this. I'm sure they'll report it very gleefully....after receiving a pay-packet from Rosoboronexport !

The problem is that the Indian public is not very much concerned abt defense and related matters so the babus army and government does what it wants at the expanse of our moneywe should wake up now & register some kind of protest (PIL)anything like internet movement on social sites, pmo etc

If DRDO is serious about saving the Arjun MBT and proving that self-suffiency is possible then they better come up with the Mark-2 as such noboby would be able to say its faulty. Indian defence has become a source of mockery for foreigners let's prove our worth..JAi hind

The army shied away from comparative trials saying that one cannot compare a BMW (Arjun) to a Maruti (T90).

If the army rejects an obviously superior product in favor of an import then they have to come up with darned good solid reasons. If bridges have to be strengthened and rolling stock has to be procured, then please conduct an estimate of how much it will cost, and then prove that this cost is overwhelmingly high. High enough to negate the great benefits of building an indigenous tank building capability.

To the genius who commented on the 60% import content, I'd like to ask him if he was willing to shell out a few hundred crores to set up a factory to supply components for 124 tanks. If yes, then please go ahead and do it, if not, then shut the heck up.

The Army is NOT a holy cow, which cannot be subjected to criticism and even allegations of corruption. Simply because we respect the border jawan who is ready to lay his life down for the country, does not mean that we have no right to question the Army over dubious arms procurements.

We, as taxpaying citizens of a democratic republic have every right to pull-up the errant Army officers by their collars, and demand why they accept fault-ridden T-90 junks, while rejecting a much superior Arjun.

If Arjun needs wider carriages in Transport aircraft then India should make provisions now itself in the joint Indo-Russian MTA or buy some A-400M that can transport heavier tanks.

Look at what us & uk heavy tanks did to iraqui tanks that were similar tin-cans. And look at what happened to similar tin-cans in recent georgia war.

Just buy heavier tank capable transport aircraft if that is the problem. Why buy an inferior light tank to keep a transport aircraft in operation !!! Yes bridges might need rework too but that would help to transport anything else that was heavier too such as heavy trucks carrying commercial or military stuff. BTW how would missile loaded trucks be carried over those bridges if a tank can't go over them ?

Arjun can't be airlifted by ny aircraft odr than th Globemaster, C-5 Galaxy or the An-124.. the T-90/72 can be airlifted by an Il-76(it was airlifted to Sri Lanka nd even to Leh).. an IAF Il-76 can lift upto 40-45 tonnes.the joint indo russian MTA can carry upto 20 tonnes(enough for a BMP)

Arjun should hve had a sloped turret like the Merkeva.. a box shaped turret makes it more vulnerable

GUYS DO NOT GET OVER EXCITED IT TAKES TIME TO TAKE DECISIONS SUCH AS PLACING FURTHER ORDERS AND THE RESULTS OF THE TRIAL ARE NOT EVEN OUT AS YET.........THE ARJUN SEEMS TO HAVE DONE WELL......FROM NO NEGATIVE PUBLICITY IN THE PAPERS.LET US WAIT N WATCH.

It is time to remove corruption from government and the armed forces.It depends on the few Indians who really care.It seems like most Indians dont have any feeling of pride, or patriotism. If they did, they would not engage in such acts of betrayal.The betrayal will be most painful if these politicians send hundreds of Indian troops into war with useless (T-90) equipment.The betrayal will be the war itself ( more things are resolved using dialogue) and the fact that there is an utter disregard for the value of human life.I did not expect this from Shri A.K Anthony

Even Leopard does not have sloped shape like Merkava but has that affected its popularity ? How were the yank and brit tanks transported if they are also heavy? India too is on its way to become largest operator of C17 Globemaster in the region. It can use the same to transport Arjuns.

The army feels the T-90 suits best their needs should we in the name of national pride or because of bureaucrats force the Arjun tank on them,the army is going to fight with that and they believe the T-90 is best we should not jump to conclusions.

As to the Arjun i agree the army was a flip-flopper on the changing requirements for the tank but then DRDO has its share of blame for unacceptable delays.instead of bickering they should come with a powerful and good looking ARjun mark-2 not that boxy shape turret...

Army dont like it - False - Army thinks its a BMW compared to the t-90 maruti 800

It cant be airlifted by IL76 - True - Thats why its okay to have a few t-90s for emergencies. Or are you thinking of airlifting 2000 tanks somewhere? LOL

Bridges cant support it - True - Strengthen bridges. We have to do some nationbuilding sometime. Cant live off what the british built forever.

No Sloped Turret - this is too dumb to respond to

Not "Good Looking" - this is where I will start banging my head against a wall

To cut a long story short, there is not a single valid reason why the army should go for the Arjun.

The only semi-valid reason in favor of t-90 is that there is better chances of the russian factories giving the required number of tanks in quicker time than Avadi. In terms of logic, that ranks somewhere near, "I chopped off my legs myself to get access to handicapped parking spots"

Wah wah... "Fck the army", "the army should be forced", etc etc. Such comments are amusing. Who protects the nation? The army? Or the mindless numbnut who writes things like this?

The DRDO exists to serve the armed forces, not to "force" them to do anything.

The DRDO needs to be taught a simple, but elusive lesson: When you promise something, deliver it. Otherwise, shut up and be prepared to go home with your tails covering your privates, and no orders for your 40 year old junk designs.

And also a lesson in humility. Learn that the "user" is your boss. Not the other way around. As for the DRDO "lobby"? There should be no lobby in the MoD, save the armed forces. The MoD was only created to support the military. Not to rule it.

If the chancers who work on the Arjun project want to leave and go somewhere else, let them. Lets see how many of them find jobs in the private sector. They might find that let alone 30 years, noone will wait for them 30 minutes to get off their arses and get cracking!

Ajay Juneja, buddy, I am an army officer. Why dont you, as a taxpaying citizen just try ONCE, to pull my collar, tough guy? Lets see how much of you is left to talk so tough after that. Oh, and what about the IAS officers who hoard crores in their homes? Wanna try to pull their collars? No? Dont even dare talk about them here do you? Because if you do, theyll come to your house and tear you a new butthole. By the way, I pay taxes too.

DRDO exists to serve the interests of the nation. The last time I checked, the army too existed to serve the interests of the nation.

The interest of the nation is clearly and unambigously and without a shred of doubt, best served by the creation of capability for manufacturing tanks, aircraft and ships. The interest of the nation is best served by NOT shipping out tens of billions of dollars.

The nation does not exist to serve the army, the army exists to serve the nation.

And if somebody, gung-ho army officers included, wants to contend that getting a much superior tank is not in the army's best interest, then please forward a reason.

I think everybody has had enough of, "Army sheds blood, so army is right". We just want the army to shed a lot less blood by going to war in a superior tank.

And when will this nation think about fighting a war instead of the small time battles we have had so far?

Difference between war and battle? A few years.

And the victor in a war is usually that nation who has more stamina and a bigger military industrial complex. Think about that instead of how easy it will be to induct T-90s.

By killing the Arjun, you are sabotaging India's capabilities. That surely is more important than whether the army is right or wrong. Its time to decide if the army is bigger than the nation.

Sir, the fact that people care enough about the future of our nation to point out corruption in one of the most loved institutions, is something that you should be happy about. Or would you rather bleed and die for a nation of sheep that doesnt give a damn?

As for your comments on the IAS, please specify if you would like the army to be seen and treated with the same level of respect as those crooks. Or do you resent the fact that those crooks amass such huge fortunes while you cant?

Last but not the least, please appreciate that the people are the nation. The soldiers of a nation come from its people. The money for the guns come from the people. The casualties in a war are people. Do not separate the nation from the people, do not separate the army from the people. The people cannot exist in peace without the army, and in the same manner the army cannot exist without the people.

all the posts are critical of the army why ? some one should anlayse the expenditure incurred by DRDO in its projects and audit them. Most of the expenditure in projects is pilferaged and squandered away - the DRDO gets away with it always.

SO PEOPLE THE EXERCISE OF FIELDING A REGIMENT OF MBT ARJUNS IS OVER. LAST DECEMBER THE MISSION RELIABILITY OF THE ARJUNS WAS TESTED IN A WAR LIKE SENARIO AND APART FROM MINOR GLITCHES THE PERFORMANCE OF THE MBT ARJUNS WAS FAR BEYOND EXPECTATIONS. THE ARMY MAINTENANCE WING DID A GOOD JOB SINCE THERE WAS NO DRDO SUPPORT FOR THE FIRST TIME. DEPENDS WHAT THE FUTURE HAS IN STORE FOR THIS TANK.