Joined: 07 Aug 2003
Posts: 5457
Location: the chocolate city with a marshmallow center and a graham cracker crust of corruption

Plum Puddin' wrote: Lolz!

Remember years ago, how all those crazy conspiracy guys said after we fucked up Iraq, because they were instrumental in the ongoing operations of Al Qaeda & had a hand in the 9/11 plan, we were gonna go fuck up Libya & Syria on the road to Iran?

What a pack of fuckin' losers man.

It wasn’t a conspiracy theory that the Bush administration was eyeing Syria and also possibly Iran – that was public knowledge. That’s why Assad assisted the flow of Salafi-jihadist insurgents into Iraq (even though they were ideologically opposed to his regime) and Iran funded Shia militias that attacked Americans (even though the Shia had the most to gain from a stable Iraq). Both countries were enemies of Saddam and were glad to see him go, but neither wanted America to have a “clean” victory because that meant they might be next.

Libya wasn’t on the radar at all until the Arab Spring happened. I don’t recall even conspiracy theorists discussing Libya as a target back then. You got links?

Thu Sep 19, 2013 12:00 pm

Plum Puddin'

Joined: 26 May 2008
Posts: 1849
Location: Earf.

Then you haven't really been listening to them. They've been going on about PNAC and other things for years.

It's not that i side with conspiracy theorists or even find their company all that entertaining. But i hate the whole blanket approach of the majority of people when dealing with & talking to them, like they are one single entity who all must believe that Egyptians were aliens and the Nazi's had a UFO base on the moon.

"LOLz bro you're an idiot! You don't believe everything the government says?"

Why should they?

When you look at all the shittyness that the U.S Government and it’s bro’s were involved in, all the lies from Pearl Harbor to Tonkin, to ‘Regime Change’ in Iran, plus all the fuckery in South America, the debacle that was the 9/11 investigation, the carnival of fun that was/is Iraq and Afghanistan, to Libya and now Syria?

I like how under Obama, the left has been skewing over to the right.

Coz, you know.. he's our guy. "Fuck Bush for sending up those drones!"

"oh Obama has used 3 times the amount? well thats different. He must have had to use them."

Double standard bullshit.

I need a coffee.

Thu Sep 19, 2013 7:11 pm

Limbs

Joined: 04 Feb 2011
Posts: 1045

Totes man. That is just as dumb.

Thu Sep 19, 2013 9:37 pm

Plum Puddin'

Joined: 26 May 2008
Posts: 1849
Location: Earf.

Totes brah.

Thu Sep 19, 2013 9:48 pm

redball

Joined: 12 May 2006
Posts: 6878
Location: Northern New Jersey

Can we bring Lusid back?

Fri Sep 20, 2013 10:20 am

crash

Joined: 07 Aug 2003
Posts: 5457
Location: the chocolate city with a marshmallow center and a graham cracker crust of corruption

On one hand, people tend to use the term “conspiracy theory” to mean “shit beyond what I think is realistic”. So a 9-11 truther might call chemtrails a conspiracy theory, I might call the truther a conspiracy theorist, and a Republican might call me a conspiracy theorist for thinking that the Iraq WMD evidence was cooked – not just a simple mistake by the CIA.

But I think the term has some utility – there’s a few characteristics that define conspiracy theorists.

They see conspiracies as the main force behind action going on. They’re not an exception, they’re the rule. There’s also a proclivity to over-simplify – the Iraq war is all about oil (or Israel, take your pick), Mali is all about Uranium. And of course, they disregard all information that goes against their theory and willingly believe anything that supports it – e.g. the Syrian rebels gassed their own people as a false flag operation to get the US to bomb the Assad regime.

They’re not a single entity – but they analyze and understand the world in similar ways, even if they reach different conclusions.

So I feel comfortable mocking them as a whole. Even when their right, they’re right for the wrong reasons. Take Libya – the conspiracy theorist might tell you that the NATO campaign was the culmination of that strategy that Wes Clark mentioned. As if some cabal has been working on this plan the entire time and finally found their opportunity with the Arab Spring.

In reality, the US was pretty happy with Gaddafi since he had given up his CW and renounced terrorism. He was helping us the War on Terror and we had decent relations. But then he had to go and kill hundreds of protestors. When it became clear that Libya was going to turn into a bloodbath, we decided to intervene because of a slew of reasons

- we were going to be forced to sanction Gaddafi due to the killing and that would disrupt the oil markets
- supporting the uprising would play well across the Arab world
- France, Italy, and UK had substantial oil interests in Libya
- most importantly, it was going to be easy, due to lack of Libya air defenses and the open desert terrain.

If Wes Clark is telling the truth, all it indicates is someone told a friend of his that there were discussions of overthrowing a bunch of Middle East countries. I don’t really doubt that possibility. The neocons are fucking insane, they had all sorts of crazy plans. If Iraq had went well, I don’t doubt they would have tried for Syria. If Syria went well, Hezbollah would be neutralized and Lebanon would eventually come around. Who knows what they would have wanted to do next.

The conspiracy theorist logic here is that because some guy overheard a discussion regarding overthrowing multiple countries in MENA and told Wes Clark about it, that means that if we do happen to overthrow a MENA country years down the road, the two are obviously connected. It’s this sort of propensity to tie things together that defines the conspiracy theorist.

You don’t have to trust your government to be skeptical of conspiracy theories. There’s a lot of twisted vile shit going on with bullshit justifications. But not everything is preplanned years before in a board room somewhere. The world is a chaotic place, most of what happens is improvised (see the most recent Syria CW deal for an example).

And for the record, I haven’t heard anyone personally justify Obama’s drones. Maybe some of the partisan talking heads on TV do and that’s all you get to see in the antipodes. Don’t assume that reflects the average democrat / liberal.

Fri Sep 20, 2013 2:19 pm

T-Wrexp00ny tang

Joined: 30 Jun 2002
Posts: 6416
Location: Detroit, Michigan

But... Did they ever find Joseph Kony?

That was so viral!

They should've used drones there.... people would've supported that!

Sat Sep 21, 2013 4:08 am

firefly

Joined: 27 Sep 2002
Posts: 3990
Location: Montreal

Wow! It's been like years since I've posted, looks like nothing's changed. haha

As one of SFF's OG conspiracy theorists let me tell you what I've learned over the years. First thing I learned is that I wasted a HUGE amount of time debating things in message board forums. Sure there are occassions when I learn things, it helped my debating skills, forced me to do lots of research, so it wasn't all bad. But it was mostly a huge waste of time. I find that when having debates with faceless internet personas you deal with insults and a lot of defensive reactionary comments. I often felt defensive and would end up re-editing my posts to the point where I sort of lost my point. It's not very productive.

When arguing or debating with people in the "real world" I've noticed a big difference. Firstly, "real world" or internet you have to speak to people in a respecful manner. You can't say things like "you're just a brainwashed zombie" or "you're a conspiracy nut". Secondly - what I've noticed at least - is that you have to put your emotions to the side so that you don't act defensively and that your mind is constantly open and ready to receive new ideas. Spring of 2012 saw a huge uprising here in Montreal and for awhile all you'd hear people talking about was politics and the student strike. People would over hear my conversation and then jump in and boom, we're going at it. haha It was great actually! And I managed to actually change quite a few peoples minds because I always spoke calmly, respectively, I listened (very important) and I was well researched on the topic.

Now as far as all these conspiracies go, here's what I think now. The greatest conspiracy of all is to get everyone all worked up about conspiracy theories! Yes there are real conspiracies out there, yes we should all be well informed, we should all think critically but what's the point in getting worked up about it? Maybe the "powers that be" want us all to fear some shadow government boogey man so that we hide in their "bunkers" and don't actually produce anything or contribute to society. I have friends who have seriously hurt themselves mentally and even physically by this stuff. Either they never go out, spend all their time on the net or they have God complexes, talk over people and basically alienate all their friends. Then again I know people who are like this with Academia too. Point is, don't obsess and don't think that you know it all.

Now my philosophy is more "Be the change you want to see in the world" and "instead of cursing the darkness, light a candle". Instead of bitching about I dunno, the food industry, make your own garden, support local/organic producers. Volunteer, vote with your wallet! Most importantly spend your time wisely. Stop fucking with youtube comments, facebook and the like and go make something happen, manifest the things you want to see in the world. Our time is precious and there are some real serious issues in our world/country/city/etc that need our energies. One thing I've noticed about these debates is that both parties look exactly the same. Both are POSITIVE that they're right and both are out to "prove something", to WIN! It's like a hard core Christian VS a hard core Atheist having a debate. Both look like fools in my opinion. If you want to know something about Spirituality or anything in life, EXPERIENCE IT. Everyone has to experience, research and think on their own and for themselves. Don't do it to prove someone wrong because then - like Crash said - you will only look for info that reafirms your point (it happens to non conspiracy theorists too ya know).

Mon Sep 23, 2013 9:08 am

Plum Puddin'

Joined: 26 May 2008
Posts: 1849
Location: Earf.

Mon Sep 23, 2013 6:17 pm

DeadAwake

Joined: 17 Feb 2007
Posts: 596
Location: Aus.

Bravo, Firefly. I admire your ability to learn from your experience and than to articulate your realizations in an accessible way.