Islam-alcohol-msg - 3/3/13
Arabic and Islamic drinking of alcohol in period.
NOTE: See also these files: Islam-msg, bev-distilled-msg, Clarea-d-Agua-art, wine-msg, Non-Alco-Drks-art, jalabs-msg, coffee-msg.
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NOTICE -
This file is a collection of various messages having a common theme that I have collected from my reading of the various computer networks. Some messages date back to 1989, some may be as recent as yesterday.
This file is part of a collection of files called Stefan's Florilegium. These files are available on the Internet at: http://www.florilegium.org
I have done a limited amount of editing. Messages having to do with separate topics were sometimes split into different files and sometimes extraneous information was removed. For instance, the message IDs were removed to save space and remove clutter.
The comments made in these messages are not necessarily my viewpoints. I make no claims as to the accuracy of the information given by the individual authors.
Please respect the time and efforts of those who have written these messages. The copyright status of these messages is unclear at this time. If information is published from these messages, please give credit to the originator(s).
Thank you,
Mark S. Harris AKA: THLord Stefan li Rous
Stefan at florilegium.org
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Date: Mon, 1 Nov 2010 18:21:56 -0700
From: lilinah at earthlink.net
To: sca-cooks at lists.ansteorra.org
Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] mead
Kiri wrote:
<<< However, there was usage of alcohol in Muslim societies...to be honest, I
have no details, but one of my apprentices has found a number of references
and, IIRC, recipes. It appears that they made beer and, I believe, wine.
Much of the beer was exported to other countries. She is currently working
on a CA about alcohol production in Islamic cultures. >>>
Alcohol WAS made in Muslim countries... legally by Christians and
Jews, who were also the only people to sell it legally, generally
speaking. In areas to the East, for example, in what is now Iraq,
Armenians - who were Christians - were well known for making wine.
And alcohol WAS consumed... by Christians and Jews, and by SOME
Muslims, especially the nobility and upper classes. But that is not
evidence that Muslims produced the wine nor that wine was commonly
consumed by all classes of Muslims throughout Dar al-Islam.
The Persian nobility is well documented to have drunk wine. Visiting
Europeans were often shocked to discover that their Muslim hosts were
drinking UNWATERED wine, when the custom in Europe was to mix it,
often half and half, with water.
And i have read that at least some Janissaries were infamous for
frequently drinking to point of drunkenness.
But that is not sufficient to assume that a medicinal mixture of
honey water and pellitory root infusion was fermented (i suspect that
with pellitory root it just would not taste too good...)
Aelina wrote:
<<< I know they also distilled as well. Many of those references are
based on cosmetics and perfumes. >>>
Yes, they distilled things... like rose water and orange flower water.
Again, i have seen nothing to suggest they were distilling hard
liquor, for example, making brandy out of wine.
Some guy in the SCA, whose name i have forgotten wrote an article
that was published on his website and, i think, in TI that jumped to
the conclusion that liquids from Arabic recipes made with honey were
forms of mead, especially if they sat for a day or two before use. As
a brewer/vintner HE wanted that to be so, but i have read those
recipes and there is nothing to suggest they went through
fermentation. And i had a boyfriend who regularly made mead and even
in hot weather it took longer than 24 hours to have a highly
alcoholic beverage.
--
Urtatim [that's err-tah-TEEM]
the persona formerly known as Anahita
Date: Tue, 1 Feb 2011 08:39:33 -0500
From: "Jim and Andi Houston"
To: , "'Cooks within the SCA'"
Subject: [Sca-cooks] Alcohol in Islamic countries
Eastern Muslims were the most liberal, wine drinking was socially accepted
in many circles among Persian and Indian Muslims. If you read the early 16th
century Baburnama, the autobiography of the first of the Mughal Dynasty, he
goes into great detail about his drinking parties and where one can find the
best wine in Central Asia.
Madhavi
Date: Tue, 01 Feb 2011 17:52:49 +0000 (GMT)
From: galefridus at optimum.net
To: sca-cooks at lists.ansteorra.org
Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Alcohol in Islamic countries
Annals of the Caliphs' Kitchens (10th Century Islamic) includes dozens of recipes for wines and meads. I even found mention of what to do to remedy hangovers (drink cold water first thing in the morning -- some things never change!)
-- Galefridus
Date: Tue, 1 Feb 2011 13:20:03 -0500
From: Woodrow Hill
To: Cooks within the SCA
Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Alcohol in Islamic countries
On Tue, Feb 1, 2011 at 12:52, wrote:
<<< Annals of the Caliphs' Kitchens (10th Century Islamic) includes dozens of recipes for wines and meads. I even found mention of what to do to remedy hangovers (drink cold water first thing in the morning -- some things never change!) >>>
There is a significant amount of support for the drinking of wine in
many period Arabic cultures. For example: the two primary works I use
for period Ottoman poetry writing (OTTOMAN LYRIC POETRY and POETRY'S
VOICE, SOCIETY'S SONG) both detail the symbolic use of wine in these
writings; one also backed by period ref. such as the (in)famous Sultan
Selim II, known as "the Sot" due to his drinking habits.
Indeed, my "period hafla" concept (called a majlis in-period) includes
wine, since it's clearly part of the party according to my sources.
All this to say: Islam, and the cultures that derive from that
religion, are as rich and complex as the ones derived from Christian
sources. There was in period, as well as today, a lively debate about
the permissibility of drinking alcohol based upon religions sources.
And just like in Europe, people violated religious rules time and
again. It's a myth that "no one in Islam drank alcohol", and it's best
that folks put it to rest, in favor of a more nuanced and complex
understanding of the role of "the grape" in the cultures in question.
<<< -- Galefridus >>>
----asim
Date: Tue, 1 Feb 2011 11:35:38 -0800
From: David Friedman
To: Cooks within the SCA
Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Alcohol in Islamic countries
Al-Tanukhi, who was a judge in 10th century Baghdad, mentions various
anecdotes about wine drinking, including one that features a barge
loaded with wine en route to the palace of the Caliph. I think it's
pretty clear that upper class middle eastern Muslims drunk wine, just
as catholics engaged in non-marital sex--in both cases sinful but
accepted.
<<< Annals of the Caliphs' Kitchens (10th Century Islamic) includes
dozens of recipes for wines and meads. I even found mention of what
to do to remedy hangovers (drink cold water first thing in the
morning -- some things never change!)
-- Galefridus >>>
Date: Tue, 1 Feb 2011 11:39:26 -0800
From: David Friedman
To: Cooks within the SCA
Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Alcohol in Islamic countries
<<< There was in period, as well as today, a lively debate about
the permissibility of drinking alcohol based upon religions sources.
And just like in Europe, people violated religious rules time and
again. >>>
The second is clearly true. My impression on the first is that the
disagreement among the schools of Sunni law was over just what range
of drinks was forbidden. At one extreme you had the equivalent of the
Delaney Amendment--you were forbidden to drink any quantity, however
small, of anything that in sufficiently large quantities was
intoxicating. At the other end you had the view that the drinking of
wine from grapes was forbidden, and that it was forbidden to get
thoroughly drunk on other things but not to drink them. "So drunk as
not to know the earth from the sky or a man from a woman."
I don't know what the range of opinions among the Shia was.
--
David/Cariadoc
www.daviddfriedman.com
Date: Tue, 1 Feb 2011 18:18:15 -0500 (GMT-05:00)
From: Christiane
To: sca-cooks at lists.ansteorra.org
Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Alcohol in Islamic countries
Madhavi observed that Persian and Indian Muslims were very liberal about wine drinking, and Cariadoc mentioned drinking anecdotes from Al-Tanukhi, the judge in 10th century Baghdad.
The thing about drinking in the countries that had been the old Persian Empire, is that ritualized group drinking and drinking as a "sign" of royalty pre-dated the Muslims - images from Babylonia and Mesopotamia are remarkably similar to images in Sassanian platters, of kings sitting drinking surrounded by dancing girls and musicians and courtiers. Check out, "Medieval Islamic Symbolism and the Paintings in the Cefalu Cathedral," by Miriam Gelfer-Jorgensen, which has a rich array of photos of objects from the region. Seeing them all together, you're struck by the consistency of the portrayals, from ancient to early medieval. Specifically, in this book, check out the chapter, "The Interpretation of the Goblet Motif in the Pre-Islamic Oriental."
With thousands of years of drinking as a sign of the gods' favor and kingship, it's no wonder why that even with the strictures of Islam against drinking, the tradition of the grape would not quite be suppressed in this region.
Adelisa de Salernum
Date: Tue, 01 Feb 2011 22:43:54 -0500
From: Sam Wallace
To: sca-cooks at lists.ansteorra.org
Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Alcohol in Islamic countries
<<< Eastern Muslims were the most liberal, wine drinking was socially
accepted in many circles among Persian and Indian Muslims. If you read
the early 16th century Baburnama, the autobiography of the first of the
Mughal Dynasty, he goes into great detail about his drinking parties and
where one can find the best wine in Central Asia.
Madhavi >>>
For those who might want to read this themselves, here are a few links:
- The Walters Museum manuscript (W.596)
http://art.thewalters.org/pdf/W596.pdf
- Google Books: Memoires of Zehir-Ed-Din Muhammed Baber
http://books.google.com/books?id=9ztbAAAAQAAJ
- Online version of Baburnama: Memoirs of Babur
http://www.farlang.com/diamonds/beveridge-baburnama/page_001
Guillaume
Date: Wed, 5 Sep 2012 18:57:12 -0400
From: "Jim and Andi Houston"
To: "'Cooks within the SCA'"
Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] (no subject)
My understanding is that drinking alcohol (especially wine) was part of the
Sunni/Shia cultural divide, and the Sufis were somewhat outside of this.
The Persians, for instance, produced and exported large amounts of wine
during the latter parts of our period. I've read some 16th century Central
Asian autobiographies and "wine parties" were commonplace and acceptable
behavior by everyone except the imams & holy men.
Madhavi
Edited by Mark S. Harris Islam-alcohol-msg 5 of 5