So I watch my share of Lakers games as well (there's a chick involved).
The idea for the question came to me when I was wondering - if something career-ending happened to Kobe, would the Lakers trade Bynum for Ellis? I think so. Would I do it, as a diehard W's fan? Yes. Would I root for the Lakers with Ellis? I take the Fifth. I know they have Shannon Brown, but I think they would want Ellis as his flashy style of play would work for the fans, he would be quite coachable under Phil Jackson, and their frontcourt would help him on D.

And then I put Bynum exactly where Rony, Andris, and Hunter were last night in their respective pick-and-rolls with Steph against the Nugs, and I see ten years of Nash/Amare+.

So I vote Lakers w/Ellis & no-Kobe = Top Four Western Conference: still a Championship Contender, but not the favorite.

Edit: for the purpose of this discussion, if there is one, lets assume that Bynum is still with Lakers, and we are reviewing how much drop-off there would be if somehow Ellis replaced Kobe, with no other personnel changes on their part.

Pau Gasol, Ron Artest, Lamar Odom, Monta Ellis, Shannon Brown, Derek Fisher with Phil as coach are for sure worse than the Nuggets, and I concede the Jazz and Mavs.

You are saying I must be kidding by thinking that this team could finish ahead of the Suns, Thunder, and Spurs, and have a better chance at a long playoff run than them. I am not kidding.

I understand where Kobe will place in history. I understand Monta has not even been an All Star. I don't understand, with all the other talent on the team, with Phil as coach, with Monta playing better than he has for us (which I consider to be a given), how I must be kidding you to think this. If this was the Warriors, I think we'd all be pretty g'damned stoked.

AV Dawn wrote:Pau Gasol, Ron Artest, Lamar Odom, Monta Ellis, Shannon Brown, Derek Fisher with Phil as coach are for sure worse than the Nuggets, and I concede the Jazz and Mavs.

You are saying I must be kidding by thinking that this team could finish ahead of the Suns, Thunder, and Spurs, and have a better chance at a long playoff run than them. I am not kidding.

I understand where Kobe will place in history. I understand Monta has not even been an All Star. I don't understand, with all the other talent on the team, with Phil as coach, with Monta playing better than he has for us (which I consider to be a given), how I must be kidding you to think this. If this was the Warriors, I think we'd all be pretty g'damned stoked.

All I am saying is that take Kobe off the Lakers and put Monta and all you have is a handful of really good 2nd or 3rd bananas, and yes that includes Monta. I love Monta but his high stats are attributed to the fact that he can do whatever he wants offensively under Nellie. I dont think he would be capable of handling the ball as much as he does for an actual contender.

I know it was only for a couple games, but that team really gelled without Kobe. I'm not saying they don't need him, I'm saying they can still compete without him. With him, they're the team to beat. Without him, it's up in the air, although since you included Monta as a replacement, they're still a deadly team. I mean look at it... Bynum and Gasol holding it down low. Odom and Artest covering the perimeter with Fisher at point to go along with a decent bench and Zeke as their coach?

Would they win a championship without Kobe? Possibly.

You replace Kobe with Monta on that squad, and they're still as good as they are now. Monta's flaws on defense wouldn't get exploited like they do here because they actually have big men who can hold it down inside and strong, perimeter defenders to help out.

xbay wrote:You replace Kobe with Monta on that squad, and they're still as good as they are now.

Eh... what?.

If that were the case, it would imply that Monta is as good as Kobe. And you certainly can't think that's true... or do you?

The point he's making, and I somewhat agree, is that the Lakers are a great team without Kobe, as they showed very recently for a few games. With that, they could well still be the best team in the nba replacing Kobe with Monta, though I think, taking everything into account, injuries and the rest, over the season, they would be a 4th or 5th seed

xbay wrote:You replace Kobe with Monta on that squad, and they're still as good as they are now.

Eh... what?.

If that were the case, it would imply that Monta is as good as Kobe. And you certainly can't think that's true... or do you?

The point he's making, and I somewhat agree, is that the Lakers are a great team without Kobe, as they showed very recently for a few games. With that, they could well still be the best team in the nba replacing Kobe with Monta, though I think, taking everything into account, injuries and the rest, over the season, they would be a 4th or 5th seed

Well, that sentence basically says they wouldn't miss a beat by replacing Kobe with Monta. And while I agree they'd still be good, it's pretty clear they would be a MUCH worse team and certainly not a contender. I think they'd be a playoff team, but not even close to their current status.

1 - The Fakers are still a good/contending team without Kobe, and are playing well whilst hes been injured.

2 - They would be worse if they had Monta in that group right now (whilst Kobe has been out)

So yes, I am saying that this Faker team WITHOUT Kobe, would play better, share the ball more, be better defensively and have better chemistry............than if the same team HAD Monta.
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Anyway, really, this is what we are reduced to right now.............talking about hypotheticals surrounding the disgusting Fakers!

My point was that if you replace Kobe with Monta, you get similar results. Not fantastic ones like now, but they'd still be winning and still real hard to beat. Having Monta does not stop the ball movement, because he no longer has the burden of doing everything. He's got Gasol and Bynum to throw it down low to, he's got Artest and Odom who can score and etc...

I said they'd POSSIBLY win a title, that doesn't mean they would. I mean, if they're playing LeBron in the finals, I think they're donezo. Not that I'm saying they'd be blown out in the series, but because they don't have anyone like LeBron to close it out for them. I don't even think Monta could do that.

Anyway, really, this is what we are reduced to right now.............talking about hypotheticals surrounding the disgusting Fakers!

I hear you Bigs. The team's record is one of the worst in the league, half the team has been injured most of the season, we don't know if we want them to win enough games the rest of the way to get the coach gone or lose enough to get a better pick, plus all the coach/management/ownership issues, & so we really are reduced right now...

It sucks, no way around it. But, to clarify my intention, it wasn't for us to so much discuss the Lakers as to isolate our opinions on Monta by separating him from the Steph Curry comparisons. And I think it worked. We've got well-reasoned opinions across the spectrum. I am in closest agreement with xbay, but I understand where you and the others are coming from.

Yes Kobe is great, no doubting that, but also notice his surrounding cast and coaching, if you want to talk balance then the Lakers are the team. You want to talk balance and coaching the warriors are at the opposite end of that discussion.

The Lakers would still be contenders if Kobe left, they went 4-1 when he was out, losing by a point to the Celtics.

Place Monta on the Lakers and he will be on a winning with structure, a regular line-up, a coach that preaches defense and a coach that actually coaches. Monta would get a role and have to follow the strict guidelines of them by coach Phil Jackson.

Now imagine Kobe on Warriors, they are not guaranteed to make the playoffs. In order to create mis-matched Nellie would probably want to play Kobe at the 4, and trust me Kobe would speak out against it, then the fans would probably turn on him for complaining, calling him a complainer and a ball hog. This highlights how bad our team is, if one of the NBA best player joins the warriors wouldn’t be contenders, there would be problems even getting into the play-offs.

In the regular season, I suppose you could argue the drop off wouldn't be that significant. In the regular season...

Yet, the playoffs are a completely different conversation. And that's really the only manner in which it matters discussing Kobe's importance. Kobe is perhaps the most battle-tested playoff performer in the NBA. He is absolutely the most fearless...the truest of assassins. He scares the hell out of other teams...so much so that just his very presence changes the outcomes of close games. When all the focus goes to stopping Bryant, it creates opportunties for everyone else (hello, Derek Fisher, Legend of the Clutch). Yet, it's his manic obsession to win...an intangible quality to be sure, but not something easily replaced. Take him off that team....replace him with Monta.....who is the leader on that roster that is going to refuse to accept defeat? It's not Gasol, not Odom, not Artest, not Bynum.

Monta is talented as all get out, but he's got but two playoff series under his belt, and he definitely didn't acquit himself too well in either. And yes, I know that was a while ago. But he hasn't demonstrated anything since then in the regular season to show that he can be counted on to be that one who takes the team on his back and shows them the way. While Kobe can absolutely be selfish to a fault, you can't argue that when he is on, he can destroy a team all by himself. That's why players like him are worth their weight in gold, and why they (and their teammates) are usually wearing rings on their fingers at the end of the season.

EDIT: let me explain it another way. if you put Monta on the Lakers, Pau Gasol is still their best player. when Pau Gasol is your best player, you are never going to win a title. No knock on Gasol, he's a VERY GOOD player....but that's just the way it is. Sure wish the Dubs had him, though...

Maybe Vegi wrote:In the regular season, I suppose you could argue the drop off wouldn't be that significant. In the regular season...

Yet, the playoffs are a completely different conversation. And that's really the only manner in which it matters discussing Kobe's importance. Kobe is perhaps the most battle-tested playoff performer in the NBA. He is absolutely the most fearless...the truest of assassins. He scares the hell out of other teams...so much so that just his very presence changes the outcomes of close games. When all the focus goes to stopping Bryant, it creates opportunties for everyone else (hello, Derek Fisher, Legend of the Clutch). Yet, it's his manic obsession to win...an intangible quality to be sure, but not something easily replaced. Take him off that team....replace him with Monta.....who is the leader on that roster that is going to refuse to accept defeat? It's not Gasol, not Odom, not Artest, not Bynum.

Monta is talented as all get out, but he's got but two playoff series under his belt, and he definitely didn't acquit himself too well in either. And yes, I know that was a while ago. But he hasn't demonstrated anything since then in the regular season to show that he can be counted on to be that one who takes the team on his back and shows them the way. While Kobe can absolutely be selfish to a fault, you can't argue that when he is on, he can destroy a team all by himself. That's why players like him are worth their weight in gold, and why they (and their teammates) are usually wearing rings on their fingers at the end of the season.

EDIT: let me explain it another way. if you put Monta on the Lakers, Pau Gasol is still their best player. when Pau Gasol is your best player, you are never going to win a title. No knock on Gasol, he's a VERY GOOD player....but that's just the way it is. Sure wish the Dubs had him, though...

I agree with your assessment of Kobe as being an assassin, a battle tested vet who opens the floor for the rest of his team-mates, an elite player with only Lebron accompanying at the top.

But Kobe had threatened to leave by demanding a trade from the Lakers in 2007. After Shaq was traded to the Heat for Lamar Odom, Caron Butler Brain Grant and a first rounder, the year after Lakers missed the play-offs, and eliminated in the first rounds the 2 following seasons, while Shaq goes and wins a championship with Wade and the Heat.

Kobe had threatened to be traded because he felt the Lakers were trying to rebuild and he was not having none of that, the results missing the playoffs and the getting eliminated from them really put a hurt on his ego.

So while Kobe is infact top 3 players easily it proved he could not carry the load and carry his team without proper help.