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There's a thread in the Pianist Corner about the Trois Nouvelles Etudes #1 ( here ) in which an anecdote was mentioned claiming Liszt played this piece when Chopin was on his deathbed. I hadn't heard that before, and was meaning to ask others here if it sounded familiar.

Then I was startled by another deathbed tale: "About the death of Chopin I have only read that a childhood friend and priest said Chopin's most beautiful concert was as he on his deathbed reverted to his faith."

Is Chopin known ever to have become estranged from his faith or to have renounced it (as is implied by having "reverted" to it when dying)? I'm pretty sure his spiritual beliefs have been discussed before here, though I can't pinpoint when or where. What do you all think about this?

I thought all the deathbed legends surrounding Chopin involved which, and how many, women claimed that he died in their arms. I was surprised to find that there are stories concerning Liszt and religious reawakenings, too!

Steven

_________________________

"There are two means of refuge from the miseries of life: music and cats."—Albert Schweitzer

Chopin undoubtedly made his confession and received the last rites a couple of days before he died. This was performed by a childhood friend from Poland who had become a priest and was a fellow exile in Paris. This individual gave a highly embroidered account of Chopin's returning to God. According to Pauline Viadot he was pretty much badgered into it and probably did it both to shut his friend up and so his sister could tell their mother he'd had the last rites. Chopin seemed to have had a bit of a falling out with God after Warsaw fell, railing in the Stuttgart Diary that God was a Muscovite. How serious this was and how long it lasted is anyone's guess. His servant Jan once glimpsed him on his knees in prayer like a child. I think he may have avoided confession for many years as he was involved in what to Catholic eyes would have been an adulterous relationship with George Sand. Unless he was willing to repudiate that relationship any confession he would have made would have been imperfect and meaningless. I believe he only felt he could make the deathbed confession because that relationship had ended.

#981317 - 07/14/0803:13 PMRe: Just for those totally devoted to Chopin

Elene
1000 Post Club Member
Registered: 12/26/07
Posts: 1425
Loc: Land of Enchantment

I was always bothered by that story about Chopin being pushed into making a confession on his deathbed by that priest, Jelowicki if I remember correctly. The story was that Chopin insisted, "I have a different understanding of this than you do," or something similar, but he was finally worn down and went along with the demand. I hate to think of something like that being done to a dying person, yet I understand that in the priest's belief system, it would have been unthinkable to do otherwise.

I think in the end Chopin would have had the last rites just for the sake of his mother's peace of mind. Justyna was a very devout woman and asked to be buried in a nun's habit as very devout women of her day often did.

Steven: Liszt was out of the country at the time of Chopin's death. Even if he was in Paris at the time, I doubt if he would have been present, considering their "falling out."

This is just my opinion and nothing more. I did read, however, that Chopin did receive the last rites to please his mother because he "didn't want to die like a dog."

But I do feel that he was torn. He was living with a woman whom he loved but did not marry. Obvious, a big sin in the eyes of the Church. But at the same time, I believe that while he might have been angry with God at the time that Frycek mentioned, he did have a very deep spiritual side. One only has to listen to his music to hear this. As a young boy, he went to church regulary, as his family was quite religious. I don't think such an upbringing is easily abandoned when one reaches adulthood. I do think he wanted to be forgiven but might have been too proud to ask.

I am very happy that he did die in peace.

Kathleen

_________________________
After playing Chopin, I feel as if I had been weeping over sins that I had never committed, and mourning over tragedies that were not my own." Oscar Wilde, 1891

I am new in that that was my first post, but this is probably my favorite thread in this entire forum. I've always been sneaking a peak at this thread but never really had anything to contribute.

Chopin has been making me laugh, cry, and everything in between since before I can remember. He's really the only composer i can't get sick of after a while, so i will definitely post more whenever i have some relevant input. Thanks for the warm welcome though

Hallo, Cheeto717! When you wrote 'he's really the only composer i can't get sick of after a while' I feel exactly the same. I have quite a low tolerance for repetition of music, except for Chopin's which is eternally fresh.

Cheeto717: You and I definitely share the same feelings about Chopin, especially the laugh and cry part. I've been listening to his music for well over 50 years, and it continues to surprise and delight me.

And how wonderful that we are your favorite thread! Even more wonderful...that you are going to post more often.

Now this will really seem "unusual."Just yesterday, I noticed that a new person had joined the forum with the name of "I Hate Chopin." OMG, one really has to be curious as to why, but then while Chopin may not be this person's favorite composer, what could it be about his music that would cause him/her to despise him so?

Kathleen

_________________________
After playing Chopin, I feel as if I had been weeping over sins that I had never committed, and mourning over tragedies that were not my own." Oscar Wilde, 1891

This person's profile indicates he/she is a jazz fan but- my goodness!- I don't see why Chopin has to get trashed in the process! I suspect the person in question is quite young.

Also, given that lots of threads have fallen down in the star rating lately, I really don't think the fall to 3 stars in our Chopin thread was specifically directed at this thread. Hard to know what is going on, or what the motivation is for this. But as someone in the other ("ratings") thread said- who cares? I certainly don't!

Originally posted by loveschopintoomuch:Now this will really seem "unusual."Just yesterday, I noticed that a new person had joined the forum with the name of "I Hate Chopin." OMG, one really has to be curious as to why, but then while Chopin may not be this person's favorite composer, what could it be about his music that would cause him/her to despise him so?

Kathleen [/b]

Recently, I read that Glen Gould absolutely could not stand Chopin. And I started to wonder why. After a conversation with some friends, (and a topic on pianoworld), we basically figured that with a clear melody, and a clear accompaniment, (arpegggios, chords, which is easily found in his works), it was simply too much 'fluff' so to speak. And I can understand that to some extent.

BUT....what I can't understand is how glen, or anyone else for that matter, can't appreciate the emotional aspect of his music...the way his melodies tear at you, and the way the harmonies compliment it. And at the end of the day, why would you write stuff that wasn't emotional? Is that not the whole purpose of the arts?

Hi !Seems that there's a little tendency of paranoia in the Chopin thread Don't think there is any reason for it, just some young members who don't know how to behave

Just to tell, I was at the chamber music festival in Risør, Norway. The focus this year was on playful music with Haydn and Ligety as important names, and I had a great time. But I met this lady when having lunch one day and she said : Next year I'd like a festival with music only by Chopin It's a bit like dreaming of chocolate after eating salad for two weeks.....

Cheeto717: The only piece by Bach that I play is the 1st prelude from the WTC, the one in C major. I truly love it because of the tight yet melodic way it flows under the fingers. (I haven't looked into any of his other preludes.) I usually play this prelude to warm up each day.

About a year ago, I rented a DVD from Netflix about Glenn Gould because I had heard so much about him and was curious to hear him play. I think the title of the DVD was something like: "32 scenes from ?" Sorry I can't remember the rest.

Good grief! I thought there was somehting wrong with me, mentally, because I couldn't figure out what the heck was going on. AND when he played that beautiful C major prelude, I threw my arms up in the air in complete disgust and disbelief.

Now, I am not nor will I ever be a musicologist. I make no claim to know about the dynamics involved in music. But, this being said, I thought his performance was utterly outrageous!!

I know the man had some problems, so I can't and won't berate him. However, I do think some people go through great lengths just to be different. Naturally, everyone who would play this prelude would give it his/her own personal touch even if it doesn't lend itself to much rubato. BUT one has to conform to certain aspects of the music as it was written, which Mr. Gould completely ignored. I'm sure that Bach would be rolling in his grave if he ever heard it.

I know Gould is extremely loved and respected by many, especially for his Bach's interpretations, and I am probably showing my ignorance with the above statement. I am reminded of how Pogo played a few of Chopin's preludes...he totally ruined them (IMO).

Hi Ragnhild: Good to see you here and glad to hear of your wonderful experience at the festival. I hope that lady has some luck, but I doubt that she will. As popular as Chopin is and has been for about 100 years, he is still considered a "lightweight" by many. Which only indicates to me that people who think so haven't really listened to his music at all. If they think it is fluff, they are completely ignorant of his major works and even some of his lesser-known compositions.

Hi MaryRose: Will look at your pictures after I feed my dog. Thanks for posting them.

Kathleen

_________________________
After playing Chopin, I feel as if I had been weeping over sins that I had never committed, and mourning over tragedies that were not my own." Oscar Wilde, 1891

Originally posted by Cheeto717:Recently, I read that Glen Gould absolutely could not stand Chopin. And I started to wonder why. After a conversation with some friends, (and a topic on pianoworld), we basically figured that with a clear melody, and a clear accompaniment, (arpegggios, chords, which is easily found in his works), it was simply too much 'fluff' so to speak. And I can understand that to some extent.

BUT....what I can't understand is how glen, or anyone else for that matter, can't appreciate the emotional aspect of his music...the way his melodies tear at you, and the way the harmonies compliment it. And at the end of the day, why would you write stuff that wasn't emotional? Is that not the whole purpose of the arts? [/b]

I haven't read the other thread you mention, but he certainly says words to the same extent on an interview I've got of him. I'm paraphrasing, but he said something along the lines of "Chopin goes in one ear and out the other for me".

From what he goes on to talk about, he seemed more interested in music that was transmitting two ideas at the same time (such as the various lines in Bach's music).

{Interview on the special edition 1980's recording of the Goldberg Variations cd}

Originally posted by loveschopintoomuch: Cheeto717: The only piece by Bach that I play is the 1st prelude from the WTC, the one in C major. I truly love it because of the tight yet melodic way it flows under the fingers. (I haven't looked into any of his other preludes.) I usually play this prelude to warm up each day.

About a year ago, I rented a DVD from Netflix about Glenn Gould because I had heard so much about him and was curious to hear him play. I think the title of the DVD was something like: "32 scenes from ?" Sorry I can't remember the rest.

Good grief! I thought there was somehting wrong with me, mentally, because I couldn't figure out what the heck was going on. AND when he played that beautiful C major prelude, I threw my arms up in the air in complete disgust and disbelief.

Now, I am not nor will I ever be a musicologist. I make no claim to know about the dynamics involved in music. But, this being said, I thought his performance was utterly outrageous!! [/b]

That's how I felt when i first heard David Helfgott play live. After watching Shine, I was expecting phenomenal playing, yet I was really horribly disappointed.

Quote:

Originally posted by loveschopintoomuch:I know the man had some problems, so I can't and won't berate him. However, I do think some people go through great lengths just to be different. Naturally, everyone who would play this prelude would give it his/her own personal touch even if it doesn't lend itself to much rubato. BUT one has to conform to certain aspects of the music as it was written, which Mr. Gould completely ignored. I'm sure that Bach would be rolling in his grave if he ever heard it. [/b]

I don't think Gould was going through great lenghts to be different, I think he was just doing what came most naturally to him. It is now speculated that he had Asperger's, which is a form of Autism. He did record Chopin's 3rd sonata (which according to him, was the only Chopin piece which held any interesting ideas), but he really poked fun at it, like he did with a lot of the Mozart he played (he shared the same distaste for chopin with mozart).

Quote:

Originally posted by loveschopintoomuch:

I know Gould is extremely loved and respected by many, especially for his Bach's interpretations, and I am probably showing my ignorance with the above statement. I am reminded of how Pogo played a few of Chopin's preludes...he totally ruined them (IMO).

As popular as Chopin is and has been for about 100 years, he is still considered a "lightweight" by many. Which only indicates to me that people who think so haven't really listened to his music at all. If they think it is fluff, they are completely ignorant of his major works and even some of his lesser-known compositions.

Kathleen [/b]

Sometimes I wish Chopin had written larger works, but I think his ideas work better with the shorter pieces he wrote. As for the people who think he is just fluff...well, can't win em all.

Please, please do NOT compare Gould to Helfgott!!! They do not exist in the same musical universe.

Gould was idiosyncratic, no doubt about it but had real genius at the piano. His ability to play contrapuntal music, maintain multiple voices and lines, create musical effects, not to mention his sheer technical ability were really amazing. I think he disliked music he felt was overly sentimental or "pretty" (not saying I see Chopin or Mozart in this way, but perhaps he did), tending more toward architectural composers like Bach and Beethoven . He also played quite a bit of modern music I believe.

I've just started "Romance on Three Legs" about Gould and his piano. Hopefully I'll learn more.

Yes, hearing him play the first prelude from the WTC can be a bit jarring if you're used to hearing it played more legato. His Bach playing though is truly wonderful . Listen to him play the Goldberg Variations for a life-changing experience.

I was more comparing the similar experience of disappointmnet and shock rather than the two pianists. Of course they are in different playing fields. If you listen to gould's transcription of Ravel's La valse, you can see his obvious genius. Helfgott remains more of an eccentric performer.

My introduction to Gould was a recording of Beethoven's Emperor Concerto. One doesn't tend to think of him playing with an orchestra or in a chamber ensemble—maybe because collaboration requires more self-restraint than we associate with him!—but it was actually quite conventional.

It's interesting that Gould had no taste for Chopin. But, for what it's worth, emotional content (which I agree is pretty much the point of the fine arts) is often in the mind of the beholder. While we associate Chopin with the profound emotional expression (obviously!), others find the same qualities in Bach. There was a very recent thread in the Pianist Corner about pieces with unrelieved "intensity," and much diversity was elicited—including atonal music.

Cheeto717, when you say you wish Chopin had written larger works, I think you meant more larger works? Personally, I prefer his big canvasses to the shorter pieces—though "only" two concertos and four sonatas make me hunger for more, too!

Everyone must speculate what Chopin might have written if he had lived longer. I have even wondered what would have happened if he strayed from the realm of piano music. (Can you imagine a Chopin symphony, opera or even sacred music?) I don't think it would have happened, but it's kind of fun to consider the possibilities.

Steven

p.s. Kathleen, that "between the ears" comment was pretty funny.

_________________________

"There are two means of refuge from the miseries of life: music and cats."—Albert Schweitzer

I've been reading a bit about how learning/playing the piano is a isolated situation, socially. And, because of this (but not the only reason), many drop out, especially when young.

I, personally, do not mind the isolation because I get along with myself pretty well. In other words, I don't need other people around me to feel happy or loved or needed. I am not saying that I don't enjoy the company of others because I certainly do. Many people think of me as a extravert, but, in reality, I am an introvert.

NOW...the reason for my post.

Do you experience that isolated feeling? If so, is it bothersome? If not, why not?

Secondly, so many famous concert pianists (and other concert performers, as well) seem to have a certain personality type that either attracts them to this isolation or, perhaps, it is the cause of some rather antisocial behavior or mental instability.

There is much lonliness in learning to play professionally. All those thousands and thousands of hours for years and years and years often proves to be too much for many.

I am thinking of those who have sufferred from severe depression, paranoid schizophrenia and/or some form of self-medication, as in drug or alcohol addiction. Horowitz and Hoffman are two I can think of who sufferred so. Horowitz from depression and Hoffman from alcohol addiction.

But then there are so many who seem to have been unaffected. Rubinstein comes to mind. A more gregarious and happy person one could ever hope to meet. Although he did go through some depression as a very young man when everything and everyone he knew was taken from him.

So, what do you think? Does playing the piano cause isolation and thus can lead to the above- mentioned, or do certain people seek out the piano because it does offer an escape from the chaos around them?

Kathleen

_________________________
After playing Chopin, I feel as if I had been weeping over sins that I had never committed, and mourning over tragedies that were not my own." Oscar Wilde, 1891

#981340 - 07/18/0808:05 PMRe: Just for those totally devoted to Chopin

Elene
1000 Post Club Member
Registered: 12/26/07
Posts: 1425
Loc: Land of Enchantment

Steven: You may remember that Chopin was often encouraged, in his youth, to write a Polish opera, but he realized that that would not be the best choice for him (you can debate that, I guess) and refused to try it.

All: I’ve read a clear explanation of Glenn Gould’s antipathy toward Chopin, Mozart and some others in a biography of that odd but brilliant person. At least according to that author’s analysis, Gould was most interested in “absolute” music that could be played on any instrument or combination of instruments; he didn’t like the idea of music that was specifically tied to the piano, and therefore Chopin, as the most completely piano-oriented composer, was not OK with him. So Bach was his ideal—but it seems to me that much of Bach is also strictly idiomatic keyboard music, so I don’t think Gould’s standpoint works out all that well in practice.

Euan: Perhaps Gould never noticed that Chopin was also often transmitting two ideas at the same time!

Kathleen: The movie was “32 Short Films About Glenn Gould.” It is mind-bending. See it if you haven’t. It’s worth it just for the list of medications he was taking and the fluoroscope film of his skeleton while he was playing.

What you described in your last post was called "Practice Room Syndrome" when I went to music school. I wish people WOULD leave me alone to practice, though. I hardly get to be alone at all when I'm playing.

Elene, I was unaware that a youthful Polish opera from Chopin was almost on the table (or, if I ever knew, had forgotten about it), so thanks for mentioning it.

Cheeto717, I forgot to say in my last post that even though Glenn Gould's behavior strongly suggests Asperger's to many, other experts reject the idea. I'm not sure if there's consensus either way at this point.

Kathleen, I have given much thought, too, over the years to what you voiced regarding isolation and piano (both in the context of depression and otherwise). I have always enjoyed solitude, even generally preferring it to the company of people with whom I don't feel a strong connection or affinity, so that aspect of musical practice has never troubled me. For people whose social needs are toward the other end of the scale, though, the isolation must be frustrating if now downright uncomfortable.

BTW, I came across a perplexing statement by James Huneker concerning Chopin's Sonata Op. 4. I had planned to post it here, but decided to start this new thread in order to cast the widest net for responses. (There's always doubt about which approach is wisest, especially considering my dismal record for stimulating discussion about musical topics that interest me.)

You all are so much more knowledgeable about Chopin's life than I am! If any of you know much about the troubled history of that early sonata—to me, Chopin's most beautiful "ugly duckling"—I hope you'll contribute to the discussion.

Steven

_________________________

"There are two means of refuge from the miseries of life: music and cats."—Albert Schweitzer

I also prefer the piano to the company of people to whom I can't connect. (Yikes, this old fashioned idea of not ending a sentence with a preposition does get a bit convoluted at times. One of my favorite expressions nowadays is: "Where is he at?" or the like.)

I really pale in comparison to the knowledge expressed by others here, but I do know that the opera was never on the table at all. Chopin was strongly urged to write one as a show of nationalism, but he never picked on a pen to even start. But how he loved the opera because of the beautiful melodies of the voices.

Don't feel bad about your threads not gathering a lot of interest. You are just too smart for many of the people here, and you think very deeply. Of course, I mean this as a sincere compliment to you, Steven. Don't ever try to change to fit in "with the crowd." That crowd needs to fit in with you.

Kathleen

_________________________
After playing Chopin, I feel as if I had been weeping over sins that I had never committed, and mourning over tragedies that were not my own." Oscar Wilde, 1891