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Topic: Was Mary sinless? (Read 8319 times)

Carico, it's got nothing to do with us being ashamed of our beliefs. You originally asked a question about Catholics. We're not Roman Catholics...at all! If you wish to ask the Roman Catholics what they believe, you should ask a forum that is Roman Catholic. We're Eastern Orthodox, not Roman Catholic..(well, I'm not Eastern Orthodox...but I'm working on it! )

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*I am no longer posting on OC.net*

We all have a Black Dog and a White Dog inside of us. The One you feed the most eventually eats the Other.

All are tempted, but it is the courageous person who clings to God during the storm. For the Ego is a prison, but Christ is the Liberator

Carico just stop. What you are doing is so rude its like jumping in to someones conversation and abusing them for no particular reason. You have been on this site for 1 hour and you have been put on moderation, do you think that this is a reason to re-think your behaviour? and no it's not because your protestant as we have many protestant posters who don't come here to abuse us but rather learn and us learn from them as brothers and sister in the body of Christ.

Actually what's rude is deliberately avoiding answering my OP by asking questions that you can't even clarify. So since you're not interested in answering my OP any more than you are interested in explaining your beliefs, then you're only here to make trouble for those who want to know more about you. You thus don't do your religion any justice whatsoever which makes it a cult. I therefore have no further desire to converse with anyone here.

Carico just stop. What you are doing is so rude its like jumping in to someones conversation and abusing them for no particular reason. You have been on this site for 1 hour and you have been put on moderation, do you think that this is a reason to re-think your behaviour? and no it's not because your protestant as we have many protestant posters who don't come here to abuse us but rather learn and us learn from them as brothers and sister in the body of Christ.

Actually what's rude is deliberately avoiding answering my OP by asking questions that you can't even clarify. So since you're not interested in answering my OP any more than you are interested in explaining your beliefs, then you're only here to make trouble for those who want to know more about you. You thus don't do your religion any justice whatsoever which makes it a cult. I therefore have no further desire to converse with anyone here.

Alright brother I am sorry to hear that you don't want to take the time to learn about us and do your own research may the Lord have mercy on the both us of in our relationship with him.

Actually what's rude is deliberately avoiding answering my OP by asking questions that you can't even clarify. So since you're not interested in answering my OP any more than you are interested in explaining your beliefs, then you're only here to make trouble for those who want to know more about you. You thus don't do your religion any justice whatsoever which makes it a cult. I therefore have no further desire to converse with anyone here.

Actually Asteriktos just answered your questions...why he too the time to do so is beyond me...but he did.

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–adjective 1. of, pertaining to, or conforming to the approved form of any doctrine, philosophy, ideology, etc. 2. of, pertaining to, or conforming to beliefs, attitudes, or modes of conduct that are generally approved. 3. customary or conventional, as a means or method; established. 4. sound or correct in opinion or doctrine, esp. theological or religious doctrine. 5. conforming to the Christian faith as represented in the creeds of the early church.6. (initial capital letter) of, pertaining to, or designating the Eastern Church, esp. the Greek Orthodox Church. 7. (initial capital letter) of, pertaining to, or characteristic of Orthodox Jews or Orthodox Judaism.

–noun, plural -ties. 1. the Christian religion, including the Catholic, Protestant, and Eastern Orthodox churches. 2. Christian beliefs or practices; Christian quality or character: Christianity mixed with pagan elements; the Christianity of Augustine's thought. 3. a particular Christian religious system: She followed fundamentalist Christianity. 4. the state of being a Christian. 5. Christendom. 6. conformity to the Christian religion or to its beliefs or practices.

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"Christianity is not a philosophy, not a doctrine, but life." - Elder Sophrony (Sakharov)

...then you're only here to make trouble for those who want to know more about you. You thus don't do your religion any justice whatsoever which makes it a cult. I therefore have no further desire to converse with anyone here.

To answer your question ... Mary was sinless for she didn't want to be like Eve, tempted by Satan to be like God.

Why waste your time creating the thread and being placed on moderation for engaging in evasive discussion with the people on this board? Your own doctrines answer your own question for you believe what I just said is the mere "thinking of men." If you're not Pentecostal, I ask for humble forgiveness....

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The UPCI rejects all extrabiblical revelations and writings, and views church creeds and articles of faith only as the thinking of men.

As an aside, on Monday, I walked out of a support group meeting thanks to an affiliate of a Pentecostal Group infiltrating a meeting. Once I heard the story of one member's personal story of "finding" Jesus one instant and "hearing" voices in her head the next instant, I walked out after reminding her that for accepting Jesus, she had to pick up her cross and follow Him (Mark 8:34-38).

Also, the Nicene Creed is based fully in Scripture; Hence, the Nicene Creed is not the mere "thinking of men."

If you view Orthodoxy and Catholicism and the Virgin Mary as "thinking of men", why not Pray for Divine Revelation....

Carico, I hope you've had your little bit of fun. How about I try to answer your question directly and concisely, and then you can sit back and relax?

Both Catholics and Orthodox believe that Mary did not sin in the course of her life, but owing to their different understandings of original sin, they believe so for different reasons.

Catholics believe that all men are conceived with a stain on their soul owing to the original sin of Adam, which caused a privation of sanctifying grace in all of his descendants. Protestants often speak of "total depravity." Catholics do not consider human souls totally depraved, but crippled enough so that our natural inclination is to evil from the beginning of our lives. With such a stain on our souls, we cannot be saved as unclean things cannot enter heaven. Christ came to save us from this affliction, and he did for Mary too. But Christ came into this world in a pure, holy and immaculate vessel, and that is Mary.

We believe that, through the graces of Christ, God made a special dispensation to preserve Mary from that stain, that natural (since the Fall) concupiscence (or innate proclivity to sin). Thus "immaculately" (stainlessly) conceived, Mary was fully free to make a choice---to say yes or no to God. Mary, as the New Eve, did not make Eve's choice and instead said "yes" to God. Thus the Incarnation. It does not follow that the Immaculate Conception made Mary incapable of sinning--- but she was fully free (like Eve) to make that choice and chose not to.

Orthodox Christians also believe Mary was sinless. However, they have a different view of original sin than Catholics. Their view might be better described as "ancestral sin." That sin brought death into the world, and it is out of that fear of death, rather than out of a depravity etched in human nature, that man sins. For Orthodox, Mary simply chose not to sin. She did not need an Immaculate Conception to do it because though all men are born into a fallen world and in need of Christ to defeat death, they are not born with a fatal stain on their souls.

If you disagree that Mary was not sinless, I suggest you take it up with the Archangel Gabriel and with the Fathers, who certainly knew the Scriptures better than you, considering they were around when the New Testament canon was first established.

Because I don't play telephone. I'd rather hear it from you yourselves...unless you're ashamed of your beliefs. I thought you could give me an honest answer, but it appears I was wrong. So if this indirect relating is an example of your religion, then I can tell you right now, your religion is not about honesty.

Brother we can tell you the answer to the question but you could be discusted and leave. But the thing is to truly understand the question you have to understand why we believe it. I can tell you it won't work with your current theological schema and you won't ever want to know anything about us. Go and do some research on the Eastern Orthodox church and you can come back and ask some questions.

Then all you have to do is tell me what you believe and why you believe it. I have no problem explaining my beliefs because I'm not ashamed of them. This thread is about your beliefs which you've been dodging since the first response. So are you going to answer the Op or keep on dodging it?

If you are not ashamed of them, why aren't you posting them?

You asked us about what the Vatican believes. Since we are not in communion with the Vatican, we can't speak for it.

No, the Virgin Mary wasn't born without Original Sin but no, she didn't commit a sin, and no, that doesn't make her a god anymore than Adam and Eve before the Fall were God (remember, that was the Original Sin, to want to become a god rather than like God: consult Genesis), so no we don't worship two Gods.

« Last Edit: October 25, 2008, 07:50:14 AM by ialmisry »

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Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.A hasty quarrel kindles fire,and urgent strife sheds blood.If you blow on a spark, it will glow;if you spit on it, it will be put out; and both come out of your mouth

Because I don't play telephone. I'd rather hear it from you yourselves...unless you're ashamed of your beliefs. I thought you could give me an honest answer, but it appears I was wrong. So if this indirect relating is an example of your religion, then I can tell you right now, your religion is not about honesty.

If you wanted to inquire about the beliefs of the people on this board (presumably you're talking about the majority of the members of this board and don't want my opinion on the matter, in particular)...why didn't you ask them that question instead of posing a vague question about Latin Theology/Mariology?

I must question the motives of anyone who asks one question then demands another, unstated one, be answered in its stead.

Again, I was asked "Whom do you think we are?" So I can't answer the question until I first know who We is. So once again, who is WE? And if you won't tell me, then you are not interested in honest conversation but rather badgering, baiting and evasion.

Under most of are names you are told who we are. Yours has the vague "Christian" which tells us nothing. Everyone here except Greeki (he may or may not dispute this) is Christian, and we are not all in the same church.

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Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.A hasty quarrel kindles fire,and urgent strife sheds blood.If you blow on a spark, it will glow;if you spit on it, it will be put out; and both come out of your mouth

I don't know why, but in case you are reading this, I am going to attempt to answer your question clearly and concisely.

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Do Catholics believe that Mary was born sinless? If so, then since God is the only one who is sinless, then the Catholics must think that Mary is God. If so, then since Mary isn't included in the trinity, then the Catholics worship 2 Gods which breaks the first two commandments. Otherwise, how do you explain your claims?

Emphasis mine

There are two issues at hand here.

1. Who we here on orthodoxchristianity.net are (an issue based on the words "you" and "your" in the OP-- emphasis added for the purpose of pointing this out)

and

2. What Catholics believe about Mary's sinlessness.

The answer to question 1.We (the majority of us, that is) are ORTHODOX CHRISTIANS. You seem to be unaware that the Orthodox Church is a Christian Church SEPARATE from the Roman Catholic Church. We are NOT members of the Roman Catholic Church. We are an entirely separate church altogether with entirely different beliefs from the Roman Catholic Church. We do not attend Catholic Churches, we do not follow the Pope of Rome. Saying that we are Catholic is like my saying that YOU are Catholic. It is simply not true.

Here are a couple websites that will educate you in the faith of the Orthodox, should you be interested in learning more.www.goarch.orgwww.oca.orgwww.antiochian.orgThere are many others, but these would be a good start. Feel free to look at all the threads on this forum, as well. You will be able to learn much about what we believe by reading those.

As to question 2.What Catholics believe about Mary was more than adequately stated already in this thread. If you are interested in what the Orthodox Church believes about Mary, I know some people have already given concise explanations, but since those don't seem to be satisfactory to you, just search on this forum and you will find many threads dedicated to the subject. There will be plenty of source material within those threads for you to read, as well.

Now, should you decide to re-join us on the forum, I have a question for YOU to consider. Why are you here? Because you want to learn, or because you want to judge? The answer seems obvious to those of us reading your posts. Maybe it's not so obvious to you. You might want to consider it. There are wonderful people on OC.net who love to talk to people who want to learn from us, and to people from we can learn. But those who come here wanting to judge us usually find that their time here is not as fruitful and people are not as friendly. Which are you?

In Christ,Presbytera Mari

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Whoever receives one little child like this in My name receives Me.Matthew 18:5

I think it would have been better if you asked if the Orthodox believed Mary was sinless. If you think we are the same thing as Catholics, go to google and type in 1054. Orthodox and Catholics have very similar beliefs on Mary, but this is not one of them. To answer your question more directly, the issue has never been that often discussed in the Orthodox Church. Many Church Fathers said that she sinned minutely as a child. We don't believe in the Immaculate Conception, but we do believe she eventually became sinless (someone here correct me if I'm wrong). We certainly believe she needed Jesus to save her. I suggest going here:http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php/topic,18035.0.html

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If so, then since God is the only one who is sinless, then the Catholics must think that Mary is God. If so, then since Mary isn't included in the trinity, then the Catholics worship 2 Gods which breaks the first two commandments.

Catholics have a direct dogma that Mary was sinless from birth to death, but they don't worship her. I would suggest asking a Catholic on that, they would know their own theology better than me.