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I broke out the low tech stuff today and played a round from the tees measuring around 6400-6500 Yds. The only modern club was a new Louisville Persimmon driver. A handcrafted 4 wood from the 50's, and a Stan Thompson Ginty 7 wood. All with TT lite steel shaft in R flex. Irons, an older set of Titlest blades,TTDG S300, 2 older Titlest wedges, and a Bulleye, non flange, with fluted shaft for the flatstick.
The irons are my normal gamers when I feel on point, but I have been playing a Modern driver/3 wood/hybrid with shaft & head setup by a local pro from range sessions with launch monitor. And a modern putter after testing different styles/models on The SAM with the same pro.
I was floored, to say the least, that my total scoring was actually better with the classic setup than with the Moderns. Now, I break out the old stuff from time to time, but after today I am seriously considering "gaming" them for the rest of the season. I found no loss of distance, Percentage of fairways hit increased and with that GIR on the higher end of my envelope as well.
My oldest son commited that I always play better with the Persimmons, that my tempo is super sweet with them and that translates to better tempo on the rest of my shots.
Anyway, I was wondering what others think about their games with the older clubs. If you feel that you actually play a better game using them?
Thank you in advance for your response.

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I was floored, to say the least, that my total scoring was actually better with the classic setup than with the Moderns. Now, I break out the old stuff from time to time, but after today I am seriously considering "gaming" them for the rest of the season. I found no loss of distance, Percentage of fairways hit increased and with that GIR on the higher end of my envelope as well.
My oldest son commited that I always play better with the Persimmons, that my tempo is super sweet with them and that translates to better tempo on the rest of my shots.

My experience is the same, to the extent that all my metal woods are now consigned to my odd clubs bag.

I've had 9 holes on both sides of my home course in less than 40 with both of those sets, have won a couple of club stablefords with the Classic set, and have knocked 6 shots off my handicap since I kicked the Metals into touch. I placed 5th out of 33 last week with my Hickories. I agree 100% with your son's comments about tempo.

I am shorter off the tee, but way more accurate. The persimmon fairway woods are a vast improvement on metal, even vs hybrids, and both straighter and longer. I can't really comment on blades as that is what I use anyway. But for sure I seem to score better with the Apex IIs or Star OAs than I ever did with my MP33s.

I love playing these old-school clubs, and really can't see why I would ever change back now.

I broke out the low tech stuff today and played a round from the tees measuring around 6400-6500 Yds. The only modern club was a new Louisville Persimmon driver. A handcrafted 4 wood from the 50's, and a Stan Thompson Ginty 7 wood. All with TT lite steel shaft in R flex. Irons, an older set of Titlest blades,TTDG S300, 2 older Titlest wedges, and a Bulleye, non flange, with fluted shaft for the flatstick.
The irons are my normal gamers when I feel on point, but I have been playing a Modern driver/3 wood/hybrid with shaft & head setup by a local pro from range sessions with launch monitor. And a modern putter after testing different styles/models on The SAM with the same pro.
I was floored, to say the least, that my total scoring was actually better with the classic setup than with the Moderns. Now, I break out the old stuff from time to time, but after today I am seriously considering "gaming" them for the rest of the season. I found no loss of distance, Percentage of fairways hit increased and with that GIR on the higher end of my envelope as well.
My oldest son commited that I always play better with the Persimmons, that my tempo is super sweet with them and that translates to better tempo on the rest of my shots.
Anyway, I was wondering what others think about their games with the older clubs. If you feel that you actually play a better game using them?
Thank you in advance for your response.

Kindest regards,

DRS

Tried this today. Old Mac Driver and 3W with MacGregor MTR2 iron set and John Letters Golden Goose putter. Played a new Pro V1 and scored just as well as with more modern stuff. Clubs liked the new ball. Enjoyed a 9 at 3 over par. Will do it again!

Since starting this thread, I have been looking for some even more, "classic" blades. A couple of weeks I had an almost obsessive desire to go to a local second-hand store in the area. Couldn't shake it, so I drove over, fully expecting it to be a wasted trip, but, what a suprise!!! In the old club bin, had to rumage though, not in order, I found 2-8 iron makeup of what I am to believe( due to some wonderful reseach shared by other members on here) mid '60s Pre-Titlest Contentials in what I would rate 7-8 out of 10 condition. Also found a vintage Mac Silver Scot forged 9i that I am using until I can locate something more akin to the Contentials.
Find myself head scratching....clean them up, play with them as is, or, modernize the shafts and grips, which would increase the playability, but even as my non-golfing wife knows would take away from the actual intent of playing with a classical set.
Seeking some advice here...the heads are in great shape for the age, but the grips and shafts could use an upgrade.

As some of you know if you see my posts in "What Golf Stuff did you buy today" I am somewhat of a "Classic Club Ho" and have been for many years.
While I have been employed in one form or another in the Golf industry for over 30 years and have seen the progression of club design and watched head sizes and shapes change, the material that heads and shafts are made out of, as well as golf ball design and materials (which has meant more consistancy and distance) has also been a big change as well. I am sure that it has benefited the average Golfer.

That being said I have decided that with the start of 2013 I will be comparing how much the "Old Technology" affects my handicap by gaming both "The Classics" (persimmon and pre 1990 forged blades) and my modern clubs, and tracking by using the USGA handicap formula (score-rating x 113 / slope and with multiple rounds of at least 5 x .96 for my adjusted index) and keeping 2 handicaps (myself) for comparison. I will keep a running log to show the difference as it progresses.

I thought that it would be an interesting comparrison for all those out there that wonder how much the new technology really helps non-professional golfers.

I am doing this for my own enjoyment/entertainment as well as for any who are interested in playing classics but may be worried about how it will affect their game. I for one dont think it will be to radical of a diffence other than the distance difference in Classic vs Modern I feel it will be fairly close with all said and done.

While I agree that it may affect lower handicap players less than higher, I think that over the past 15 years the average players handicap has only improved by about 2 strokes due to modern equipment and ball.

The average handicap of all golfers -- men, women and children -- has decreased consistently for the past 15 years. The average handicap today is two strokes better than it was in the early 1990s, according to research provided to Golf Digest by the USGA's Golf Handicap & Information Network (GHIN).
Prior to that time everyone was using Wooden Woods and Forged Irons so I dont think it really changed much before. And bear in mind that most golfers (close to 80%), dont keep handicaps and are probably in the 15-25 handicap range.

Stats from the USGA. About 5 million golfers have a GHIN handicap which is only around 20% of all golfers.

Compared to the courses that I grew up playing, I would say that course design has definetly changed compared to the courses that were designed lets say 30 or more years ago as evidenced by the constant reworking (lenghtening and green redesigns ) that we see happening to the "Old Standard Greats" which the PGA Tour still competes on, but I feel that is due to the increased length of the modern professional golfer, as well as the modern equipment and golf ball. No one wants to tune into a televised tournament and watch the (mass of) pros of today shooting ridiculously low numbers, thus rendering those great designs of yesterday completely obsolete.

Another reason that design has changed is also for aesthetic reasons. Any of you that grew up on "Old Local Muni's" know that they were built with the then "masses" in mind, and even though the prices have increased somewhat on those Grand Old Muni's, the cost of designing, building, and maintaining the newer corses of the last 30 or less years has skyrocketed, and to help jusify the increased green fees, the look as well as the overall perceived value has required fancier facilities, such as Clubhouses, Cart Barns, Course Signage, Scorecards, Restraunts, Course Maintenance Equipment, and many other amenities that were just not required on the Muni's of yesterdays.

I feel that without the new "Super High Moment of Inertia Tee Bombers" (Drivers) that are being mass produced today, and the vastly improved putting surfaces as compared to say 30 years ago, that the majority of recreational golfers would really not be lowering their handicaps as much as the USGA has reported because they would not be hitting as many fairways as they do now. Also, I grew up playing on Poa Anna putting surfaces which greatly changed throughout the days play. With all the new grasses that are available, course conditions today remain more the same from morning till evening, other than the early morning dew.

As far as the "Modern Courses" being too difficult for the average player, I personally feel that far too many of todays "Recreational Player" feel an entitlement to "See The Whole Course Because I payed My Money to Play" and (most of their egos) are causing them to write checks that their playing ability cant cash!!!!

I am a 57 year old man now (7500 yard Tournament Tees are almost always out of the question for me) and while I play to a low single digit handicap, I like to play from the Men Championship Tees (Blue) some of the time, I also play from the Mens Regular Tees (White) more than 60% of my rounds, as I am secure in my "Manhood" and feel that I prove more playing from the proper tees for my driving distance ability (consistent 250-260 yards) and also increase the enjoyment of the time I spend out on the course.

So using step 6 of the USGA Handicap System I now have 6 "Classics" scores posted and I am to take the lowest which would be 4.61 and multiply it times .96

4.61 x .96 = 4.4 would be my index with 6 scores recorded

with 6 scores recorded my index is still 4.4 using USGA Handicap System. I will be playing tomorrow and will have 7 scores so I will take my 2 lowest index scores added together then divide by 2 then times .96 Stay tuned for my update

With 7 scores in I take the 2 lowest which are 4.61 + 5.51 = 10.12 and divide by 2 = 5.06 and multiply by .96 which comes out to 4.86 so my index would round up to 4.9 for the seven scores.
After a month of using my Classics we thus see that my Handicap Index difference between my modern clubs 4.3 and my classic clubs 4.9 is about a half a stroke.
While I will admit that higher handicappers will probably have a higher differential, I dont feel that lower handicappers are affected nearly as much, and I will reason that it is probably due to better ball striking abilities of lower handicappers versus those of higher handicappers.

The jist in this whole thing is that I think that we should all embrace the "Game as it was" before the high tech boom, and play some rounds with the classics, and not worry that it will be a negative experience, but more that it will be a joy to go back to our youth and rekindle some fond memories we had in a much less complicted era.

A couple times over the last several years, in the middle of summer, I've switched my bag to playing persimmons exclusively, each time for a minimum of two months. I'd already been playing classic blades such as Vibration Matched Golden Rams, and putters like the Cleveland Designed By, so there were no changes to the bag there to "go classic."

Each time I did this, I watched my scores drop. The most interesting of these was back in 2008. I started the season an 11.x index and stayed there into mid July. Around that time, I decided I would play Golden Ram persimmons, and did so into October. My index dropped 3 strokes, finishing that year at 8.2

I may not be a great test case, since my biggest issue might be my tee game. I can hit some serious whiskey-tango-foxtrot tee shots from time to time, sometimes coming out of nowhere in an otherwise good round. The persimmons had me keeping the ball in play off the tee, which was probably the biggest reason for the improvement mentioned above.

I still occasionally bring out the persimmons, but haven't done so for any length of time for a couple years. Doesn't really affect my scores.

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NRJyzr,
Glad to hear that you and others here are embracing playing the "Classics" as I am. I have found the same as you that scoring is not affected much if any by playing your "Classics" bag. The added bonus for me is gathering the quarters from my playing partners after our rounds, and seeing them shaking their heads and mumbling to themselves after paying me off! I will be playing them today and have been playing about 60-70% of my rounds with them over the last several months, and dont see that ratio changing anytime soon.

Hello to everyone. New guy here. But in response to your original post, let me tell you what is in my bag right now. I have a one of a kind old persimmon driver. Originally made in 1939, but I had the toe cut down. I carry a Tommy Armour 943 three wood and an MO5 five wood. Naturally all persimmon. My irons are wilson staff and are thirty years old. I have the one iron thru the wedge. My sand wedge is an early 1960s black dot wilson dynapower. Exactly like the one Tom Watson used to hole out in a major to beat Nichalus. My putter is a wilson designed by Arnold Palmer. It is the original. I quit playing (for health reasons) twenty five years ago. I have about 15 complete set of old McGregor permisson clubs, along with over a hundred putters and about twenty old classic wedges. Someone told me they use metal woods today. (LOL). Just can't believe it.

Hello to everyone. New guy here. But in response to your original post, let me tell you what is in my bag right now. I have a one of a kind old persimmon driver. Originally made in 1939, but I had the toe cut down. I carry a Tommy Armour 943 three wood and an MO5 five wood. Naturally all persimmon. My irons are wilson staff and are thirty years old. I have the one iron thru the wedge. My sand wedge is an early 1960s black dot wilson dynapower. Exactly like the one Tom Watson used to hole out in a major to beat Nichalus. My putter is a wilson designed by Arnold Palmer. It is the original. I quit playing (for health reasons) twenty five years ago. I have about 15 complete set of old McGregor permisson clubs, along with over a hundred putters and about twenty old classic wedges. Someone told me they use metal woods today. (LOL). Just can't believe it.

Welcome to the forum!! Lets see some pictures of your Macgregor sets of persimmons??

Since my last post in November I have played another 15 or so rounds with my "Classics" and as I have stated before, there doesnt seem to be much of a scoring difference between my Classics and my Moderns. My latest round today was a 77 with a double bogey on the front, 40/37. I have to say that other than the distance difference betwen the 2, the end results are the same no matter which set I play. Handicap differential is staying at about .5 index difference between Classics and Moderns but for some reason, I just garner more pleasure when I play my Classics. Just something about a purely struck old forged blade or Persimmon that a Modern Ti Driver or cavity back cant match.

By the way I have been using the Wilson Duo and it performs well and feel great. I have seen posts about problems people are having with them splitting, but to date that is something that I have not encountered.

Thank you all for responding to the post. I have enjoyed the responses. A plus one on the Wilson Duo. Added benefits, a great cold weather ball and you can't beat the $$. Oh, and it now is available in high Viz yellow. If you haven't tried the high viz yellow balls, do yourself a favor and do so. From my professional standpoint in deep depth underwater video, the color does stand out.

Rejuvenating this thread bevause I love this subject. I think mid to high handicappers would possibly benefit from persimmon more than one might imagine, as long as the course was under, say 6400 yards. The reason being their throwback driver (in the case of persimmon) would be 43 to 43.5" long with a heavy steel shaft. The loft would be 11-12 degrees. This is a driver people can handle, as opposed to what they are using now which is 46" long with a light, fifty gram shaft and 9 degrees of loft. Your average 16 handicap can't keep this club on the planet, much less the fairway. Now occasionally one of these fellows will catch one just right and bang in out there 260 and he feels like a stud, forgetting, of course, the other 13 drives that he pumped into the woods. Exactly what the golf manufacturers are counting on. That amnesia. A year and half ago I got so sick of white drivers and 500 dollar drivers (don't get me started on 400 dollar putters) that I put together a vintage bag and started playing it on a regular basis. I only play my modern stuff in scrambles and best balls, so as not freak anyone out. I'm in my fifties, always been a decent player, but no great shakes, high 70's, low 80's, but recently I notice I'm starting to get used to my new/old way of playing and I'm beating a lot of people that I didn't think I could handle, I get my Toski persimmon out here 240 or so, but more importantly, it's in play. Even more importantly my misses are in play. My playing companions misses are OB, or in the trees, or in the next fairway blocked out. There is a guy, can't remember his name now, but he's a stats guy with the USGA and he's doing this project where he is logging shots. Thousands of them from selected clubs in the northeast. What he is discovering is that the old canard, drive for show, putt for dough, may be true on the tour (on regular tour stop courses, not majors) but it is not true of amateurs. Amateurs lose many more shots off the tee than anywhere else. The three putt for a ten isn't killing them, it's the two balls OB on the way there.
I could go on and on about how much more fun it is to play creative shots with my 1959 Hogans, and that this way of playing has given me my passion for the game back, but screw all that Bagger Vance stuff if you want, and try this. Go to a thrift store, buy yourself a Mac, or Hogan, or Wilson persimmon with a dynamic steel shaft, that will set you back maybe 5 bucks at most. Work with it a little bit, buy two or three until you find one that suits you. Regrip it so you don't have to hold on so hard, and then go beat some guy with a white driver the size of your head. Your 4 bucks vs. his 400. Take him for a couple of dollars, or a beer.

Glad to see some new life in this thread. A lot of truisms there Kdad. Had my best round in a couple of years with some old clubs I picked up for a dollar a piece at a local thrift store about a month ago. Cost of the round was twice as much as the cost of the kit including bag and the look on playing partners faces...Priceless

Glad to see some new life in this thread. A lot of truisms there Kdad. Had my best round in a couple of years with some old clubs I picked up for a dollar a piece at a local thrift store about a month ago. Cost of the round was twice as much as the cost of the kit including bag and the look on playing partners faces...Priceless

Sometimes it takes a bit of experimenting to make it fly, but that's all part of it, isn't it. I started out with a set of Macs THE 985 which unfortunately is what it felt like I was shooting with them. Tough clubs to play consistently. I recently stumbled on the old Hogans. Made a world of difference. You have to b your own fitter which is one of the things I like the best,

Agree with that Kdad. Have a set of '53 model M85 Macs myself. Takes some getting used to. Find the right set of sticks and a proper makeup for ones game and it makes all the difference. Btw it wasn't the Macs I shot the low round with.

Agree with that Kdad. Have a set of '53 model M85 Macs myself. Takes some getting used to. Find the right set of sticks and a proper makeup for ones game and it makes all the difference. Btw it wasn't the Macs I shot the low round with.

What were the sticks for when you "went low"? BTW my Hogans are 1958 European versions of the Hogan Precisions made by Slazenger for the princely sum of 15 dollars. I'm missing a couple which I hope to fill in on the bay. A steal all the same.

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I was playing a Ping Zing laminate Blonde 1 wood, Ping Eye2 laminate black 3 wood, 2 iron through 56*sw Cast blades from Golfsmith and Bulleye Le Femme putter. First time on the course with the Pings, and the second time I had played the cast blades. Found the woods at a local Goodwill for a couple of bucks apiece, the irons at Habitat for Humanity for a dollar each, and the Bulleye I have had for years that I got from an estate sale for $5.00.

BTW, I have regripped all the old Macs to make them playable, and they work quite nicely, I just have to remember my yardages with them.

Agree with the statement you made about being your own fitter. I hate going into a golf shop now and looking at modern clubs. The newest set of irons I have is a set of Titlest 690.mbs, but my oldest son just picked up an older set of Mizzys, MP60s that fit me to a tee.

Yes those 1980's Ping woods were smooth, the wood version of game improvement. I know Karsten Solheim is not a favorite son amongst the vintage/classic crew, but the guy was a hell of an engineer. While he ran the show PING simply did not make a bad product.
My persimmon driver is a Bob Toski model that I was fitted for in 1986. The last wood club I ever purchased new. "Fitted" then was pretty primitive compared to now. The Toski rep who was the assistant pro at the club had 3 or 4 drivers, one deep faced, and the others pear shaped and there was a different steel shaft in all of them, an x100 dynamic gold, an s300, r300, and a senior flex. He had 5 or six grips from which to choose. He watched me hit 20 or so balls with the various drivers, I picked a grip and that was it. Took about 20 minutes. No launch monitor, or flight scope, no swing speed, or face angle read outs. Just feel and the eyeball test. When I started playing vintage last year. I thought I still had that driver in the garage somewhere, and so went out and found it in an old bag in the corner. Been hitting it great ever since. Tried a few thrift shop finds, a Power Bilt, a Mac and. Hogan, but nothing has knocked it out of the bag yet so that old school fitiing wasn't too far off despite it's lack of sophistication.

I am about a 15 --my last GHIN was 14.9 but I did not participate last season. If I play or at least practice occasionally with my old school bag, I don't find a lot of difference in my scores. I use an old school putter an wedge most of the time anyway, and a couple of old school irons in my bag.

I took my recently acquired" Karsten II " woods out for a test drive last week. While they are a touch lighter than I'd like, I got lucky as they already had X100s in them. Any way they were a joy to hit on course. What I loved most was that I didn't need to change my swing to hit them, and for once felt completely comfortable going after the ball off the tee at 110%. I only had one drive not in play the whole day.

As far as my game goes I only really noticed being shorter on the par 5's, due to my drives being a little shorter and the 3 wood being weaker lofted than I'm used too. My scoring on the day though was awful. My putter completely abandoned me. I started off sinking a 30 footer on the 1st then proceeded to 3 putt nearly every remaining hole....

First time out with all vintage, my driving was atrocious. But my fairway wood and iron play was really good, and my short game was lights out. I tied my best ever score for the course, despite the fact I could not get the old Staff Tour Block grooved.

Next time out with the same setup, 6 strokes more. One penalty on a thinned iron (2 of the strokes right there), and again, the driver was the challenge. Of the four holes I drove on, one was great, one was in trees, which put me in a "take your medicine" position, one was real short (el topperino), and one was also in trees (at least smaller ones) but I was hitting 3i into the green on a hole where I normally hit 7-8i in with my coffee can on a stick. Short game was decent, but not like the previous round.

Most of this with the driver is setup and execution, and I'm needing to relearn where the driver head should be at address, and how to swing a metal shafted driver again.

Of note, on my local 9 there are only 4 "driver" holes, as two of the par 4s are doglegs that require either an iron or a FW off the tee. Course is Par 35 (2 x 5, 4 x 4, 3 x 3). So really, the driver should only cost a maximum of four strokes unless you do something really, really bad with it, or you're not a good iron player.

Honestly I found playing the laminates very rewarding, some how I gain confidence the instant I see a small head on the end of the shaft. I felt like I hit some of my purest drives ever. What really sold me on them was how bad shots with the driver were not severely penalized. Great to see gear effect in action. Even this one round under the belt has given me enough of a nudge to search out a Persimmon setup spec'ed to my needs. My only problem is that I can only speculate as to what the lofts Ping's are.

What really sold me on them was how bad shots with the driver were not severely penalized. Great to see gear effect in action.
J

I have been scratching my head as I don't remember the persimmons being that user friendly back in the day. Either I have vastly improved my ballstriking off the tee, or the bomb and gourge of the modern drivers with their added length has given me a blind eye to what an acceptable tee shot should be. Me thinks it is the latter. I'll gladly take an extra club, and sometimes two if necessary to be able to put the ball in the short grass and move it from side to side.

What really sold me on them was how bad shots with the driver were not severely penalized. Great to see gear effect in action.
J

I have been scratching my head as I don't remember the persimmons being that user friendly back in the day. Either I have vastly improved my ballstriking off the tee, or the bomb and gourge of the modern drivers with their added length has given me a blind eye to what an acceptable tee shot should be. Me thinks it is the latter. I'll gladly take an extra club, and sometimes two if necessary to be able to put the ball in the short grass and move it from side to side.

If you played wound balls back in the day, that might be part of the equation. The modern multilayer balls fly straighter than the balls of old; used to be a common complaint on the Senior Tour, ten years ago.

If you were using 2 piece distance balls back in the day, maybe you're just more accurate now.

What really sold me on them was how bad shots with the driver were not severely penalized. Great to see gear effect in action.
J

I have been scratching my head as I don't remember the persimmons being that user friendly back in the day. Either I have vastly improved my ballstriking off the tee, or the bomb and gourge of the modern drivers with their added length has given me a blind eye to what an acceptable tee shot should be. Me thinks it is the latter. I'll gladly take an extra club, and sometimes two if necessary to be able to put the ball in the short grass and move it from side to side.

If you played wound balls back in the day, that might be part of the equation. The modern multilayer balls fly straighter than the balls of old; used to be a common complaint on the Senior Tour, ten years ago.

If you were using 2 piece distance balls back in the day, maybe you're just more accurate now.

When I tested these out with range rocks I was seeing some crazy ball flights off the tee. However there were no surprises off the deck.

On course I played with Bridgestone B330S. Over all my trajectory was higher than I would ultimately like, yet it didn't seem to hinder me as much as I expected. When I mention "gear effect" it was mostly due to one particular pulled shot which just turned back on line and I had no other way of explaining it to myself . My bad miss shots for day were high pushes, which are uncommon for me. These shots however carried much further than I ever expected. I also toed one drive which just ran dead straight all way the up to my playing partners drives. This was quite a windy day I was often surprised at how much carry I saw playing in to the wind. Playing with the wind at my back was a lot of fun.

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