As I tend to see AOG as being really Christian group, with wrong views on the Holy Spiritas regarding gifts today, but do seen charasmatics such as Word of Faith/health & wealth as basically biblical cults?

Agreed. Some of the AOG distinctives are surely unbiblical, and the group's decidedly semi-Pelagian view of the gospel is UN-Christian. Yet many find Christ even in such churches, and eventually find their way to truer churches as they continue in their discipleship to Him.

Word-of-Faith groups are NOT Christian at all, since they re-define even the most basic terms and worship a false god which is more like "the Force" of Star wars than the Triune all-righteous Creator and Judge of the universe.

There are no truer churches. A church is one that preaches the true gospel, sovereign grace. Many people that are going to these so called false gospel churches are saved going to those churches, if God the Holy Spirit wakes them up while reading scripture that relate to saving faith. But they are not awakened by believing in a false gospel. If The Holy Spirit awakens them to the truth that they have been sinning against God their whole life and that Christ Jesus died on the cross to save sinners, that Christ took upon their sin debt and imputes His righteousness to them and they repent and believe and cry out to God for grace and mercy they will be saved. Once they are saved they will know they are in a false gospel church and will leave that church and look for a true gospel church, which are few now days.

That is how I see them also, as do know many that were saved by Grace of God, even though they misunderstand biblical sotierology! To their credit, they do not hold to word of faith, name it claim it, as wof does!

So you would see any Church not teaching a clavinistic view on scripture as not being a Bible based church, not offering the real Gospel to its members then?

There is only one Gospel (Gal 1:6-12; 2Cor 11:1-4; Jude 1:3). C.H. Spurgeon who is certainly not infallible believed and preached that what is known as Calvinism IS the Gospel. And there are myriad others both before and after him who have believed the same thing. The universal Reformed churches in 1619 at the Synod of Dordt concluded that Arminianism was a damnable heresy. What is believed in the majority of churches is even worse; semi-Pelagianism, Pelagianism, Liberalism, etc. So, pray tell, how can someone believe upon the Christ of the Scriptures from hearing a false Gospel under a false teacher? The biblical gospel emphasizes the total depravity and inability of man, that all men by nature are under the wrath and judgment of God, that God is infinitely holy and is at enmity with man, that Christ who is God in the flesh lived a perfect life, was crucified, died, buried and rose from the dead in order to save a particular people from their sins, having taken upon Himself their sins, that the Spirit of God gives life to spiritually dead sinners creating in them a heart of flesh, a renewed nature, that those who are born anew are first deeply convicted of their sin and sinfulness, under God's wrath and just judgment, are guilty before God and have never done a single good thing in their life, that Christ's perfect righteousness must be imputed to their account in order for the remission of their sins and be reconciled to God... etc. See my article: A Gospel Summary. Another article I would recommend is: Is Calvinism the Gospel?. Yes, it is possible that someone who attends or is a member of a false church to come to a saving faith of Christ. But NOT because of what they hear in that church but through either their own reading of the Bible and/or through the witness of a true child of God who brings the true Gospel to them.

Under the typical preaching/teaching of the modern church most are under the false assurance they are saved because they "asked Jesus into their heart", read a sinner's prayer, etc., etc. ad nauseam which is classically known as Sandemanianism, aka: Easy Believism.

A sinner is not saved because they believe Calvinism!! But right doctrine will be believed by a sinner saved by the work of the Spirit who enlightens the mind to the things of God which were before foolishness to him. And, it is also not true that only those who are fully knowledgeable of doctrine can be saved. Through the process of sanctification the Spirit brings God's adopted children to a greater knowledge of the truth as He wills for each of them.

Ia gree with you on this issue, but was just suggesting that there are many churches who teach the Gospel who are not calvinist, but they teach jesus died for sinners, receibe Him as Lord to be saved...

They are christian, yet have really bad understandings on certain things!

Ia gree with you on this issue, but was just suggesting that there are many churches who teach the Gospel who are not calvinist, but they teach jesus died for sinners, receibe Him as Lord to be saved...

They are christian, yet have really bad understandings on certain things!

This view you appear to embrace is popularly known as "Tolerant Calvinism". In its basic form it says, Arminians and semi-Pelagians and others are all Christians and should be looked upon as brothers and sisters in the faith. The difference between us is that we have received better teaching than they have.

This view has myriad problems which cannot be justified from Scripture. One of the most obvious ones you yourself mentioned above, "there are many churches who teach the Gospel who are not calvinist.... As I stated above in another reply referencing Spurgeon's words, "Cavlinism IS the gospel". If someone preaches any other gospel other than what Paul and the other Apostles preached, then it is a FALSE GOSPEL, which cannot save.

Secondly, you wrote, "but they teach jesus died for sinners, receibe Him as Lord to be saved...". Unfortunately, this truncated statement does not encompass what is needed to be saved. Mouthing these words or any other formula, e.g., "Tell God you are a sinner and ask Jesus into your heart...", or "Just believe Jesus died for you...", or "If you want to be saved, just read this little prayer on the back of this card...", etc.

Some salient questions which must be considered are:

1. Jesus who? Which Jesus are these non-Calvinist churches teaching? Are they teaching a Jesus who died for everyone and paid for everyone's sins thus all one has to do is believe that Jesus died for them? Do they teach that God in Jesus has made salvation possible for everyone but YOU must exercise your free will to make it happen? As Billy Graham stated it, "God has done everything He can to save you. Now, it's up to you."

2. What do these churches teach about sin? Do they teach that all men by birth inherit a sin nature and Adam's guilt is imputed to them? Do they teach that ALL at conception are under the wrath and just judgment of God and that they are sworn enemies of the thrice holy God of heaven? Do they teach that no one has ever had a good thought, spoke a good word or done anything whatsoever which is good before God? Do they teach that the natural man hates God and loves sin and because they are human they are totally depraved and cannot even desire to be saved, never mind not being able to do anything about it? Do they teach that it is the sovereign good will of God to send His Spirit to bring genuine conviction upon all whom He desires to save and gives them the ability to repent of their sins and flee to Christ believing that in Him and Him alone is forgiveness to be found and that it is the only way anyone can be reconcilded to God? Do you get the point here?

I would agree with you that calvinism is the best expression/understanding on just how the Lord saved sinners such as you and I, but are you stating here that those in Christianity not holdingto calvinism are teachinga false gospel totally? My expereinces with many of them would be that they hold to them needing Jesus to save them, that they are sinners, and that Jesus died for their sins, and was raised again, but have an incomplete, misunderstanding of it in its totality?

I would agree with you that calvinism is the best expression/understanding on just how the Lord saved sinners such as you and I, but are you stating here that those in Christianity not holdingto calvinism are teachinga false gospel totally?

1. I am not saying nor do I believe that Calvinism "is the best expression/understanding on just how the Lord saved sinners". What I have tried to make clear is that Calvinism and Calvinism alone is the ONLY truth according to God's inspired written Word, the Bible, in regard to ALL THINGS concerning God, Christ, redemption and the Christian life. A half truth is no truth at all. The Devil used a partial truth when he deceived Eve and he continues to use such lies to this day.

2. Have you read any of the articles I have given links for? Many deal with this subject in depth.

3. Yes, non-Calvnist teachings are false, especially their man-made Gospel. Does that sound too narrow to your ears? Paul was of the same mind and wrote some very condemning things in regard to any who preached any other gospel than what he and the other apostles taught:

Quote:

Galatians 1:6-9 (ASV) I marvel that ye are so quickly removing from him that called you in the grace of Christ unto a different gospel; which is not another [gospel] only there are some that trouble you, and would pervert the gospel of Christ. But though we, or an angel from heaven, should preach unto you any gospel other than that which we preached unto you, let him be anathema [cursed/damned]. As we have said before, so say I now again, if any man preacheth unto you any gospel other than that which ye received, let him be anathema [cursed/damned]

Quote:

2 Corinthians 11:3-4 (ASV) But I fear, lest by any means, as the serpent beguiled Eve in his craftiness, your minds should be corrupted from the simplicity and the purity that is toward Christ. For if he that cometh preacheth another Jesus, whom we did not preach, or [if] ye receive a different spirit, which ye did not receive, or a different gospel, which ye did not accept, ye do well to bear with [him].

Originally Posted By: JesusFan

My expereinces with many of them would be that they hold to them needing Jesus to save them, that they are sinners, and that Jesus died for their sins, and was raised again, but have an incomplete, misunderstanding of it in its totality?

If you think that those who embrace Arminianism (very rare) or semi-Pelagianism believe that they are saved solely by grace in Christ, you need to come to a better understanding what these false and heretical systems believe. The Reformed church, until recent history has thoroughly rejected and condemned these heresies and those who preach/teach and/or embrace them. Until recently, and this EC (ecclesiastical correctness) has become so popular, no true Calvinistic/Reformed church would ever accept an Arminian nor semi-Pelagian into membership.

Lastly, what is your understanding of the following text:

Matthew 7:21-23 (ASV) "Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father who is in heaven. Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy by thy name, and by thy name cast out demons, and by thy name do many mighty works? And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity."

I am working my way through the links, and I do think that the sorierology of calvinism is spot on, as that is the correct explanation on just how and why God saved lost sinners such as you and me by His grace!

I would also state though that since God nethod of saving would be the same, do see many who have their misunderstanding on this topic still saved, but they really need to study the Bible and come to the correct undertanding on what salvation really means form the perspective of the scriptures.

And think that the Lord Jesus meant that there were many who professed to being saved and serving Him, claimed to be Christians, but in the end, they were not ever really saved by Him!

"I would also state though that since God nethod of saving would be the same, do see many who have their misunderstanding on this yopic still saved, but they really need to study the Bible and come to the correct undertanding on what salvation really means form the perspective of the scriptures."

You can't be saved believing a lie! Haven't you read all that Pilgrim has written and read the 9 links he provided? It seems that you don't understand that people believing in the myriad of false gospels out there today will not be saved hearing the heretical systems they believe. Everyone is(Ps. 51:5 and Rom.3:10-12) totally depraved and can't go say a prayer or asked Jesus into their heart. People are saved by reading there bible or someone that is a child of God brings the true gospel to them and they are convicted by knowing true doctrine and the work of the Holy Spirit which (Eph. 2:1-3) regenerates their heart which before they were walking with the world and the devil.

I am basing my response to the truth of God election towards his own people, as the Lord will enable even those being taught incomplete/wrong understandings on doctrine to accept Jesus as their Lord and get saved, but then, saved despite their false teachings, time to move on !

I would also state though that since God nethod of saving would be the same, do see many who have their misunderstanding on this topic still saved, but they really need to study the Bible and come to the correct understanding on what salvation really means form the perspective of the scriptures.

It isn't a matter of method but rather of content that is most important, although the method will be determined by the content (message). Once again... the gospel being preached and spoken in the overwhelming majority of churches today is ANOTHER GOSPEL; a lie which cannot and does not save anyone. The Spirit of God does NOT work through lies but only truth. It is the TRUTH that sets a sinner free, not the lies of the Evil One. IT is the TRUE GOSPEL which is the power of God unto salvation to everyone that believes. Believing in another gospel, or another Jesus or another Spirit, or anything other than the real gospel, the real Christ and the real Spirit produces only sure death... not life.

Originally Posted By: JesusFan

And think that the Lord Jesus meant that there were many who professed to being saved and serving Him, claimed to be Christians, but in the end, they were not ever really saved by Him!

Yes, in part that is true. The ones who address Christ as "Lord, lord..." show that they were part of the visible, earthly church and not pagans or heathens. They were teachers, pastors, evangelists, etc. and of course, regular members of churches. They were dedicated to the 'cause', read their Bibles, witnessed, were baptized, partook of the Lord's Table, and strived to live 'good lives'. Yet, Jesus' reply is most important to this MANY... not a few. Depart from me you workers of iniquity. The reason for their rejection wasn't because THEY didn't love Christ (profession), but it was because Jesus never KNEW them, for He knew them well enough to call them workers of iniquity. The word "knew" in this text means "love". So, what Jesus said was, "I never loved you, depart from me you workers of iniquity!"

Do you understand the solemnity of this text now? Does it shake you down to your very core? It isn't whether someone professes to love Jesus, to receive Him as Lord, or is baptized, goes to seminary and is ordained as a pastor, or lives an outwardly godly life, etc. What matters most of all is whether Jesus loves you and has paid the penalty for your sins and called you by His grace through the sovereign and secret regenerating work of the Holy Spirit, calling you inwardly by irresistible grace, granting you the desire and ability to repent of your sins through the profound guilt put upon your mind and heart and convincing you of your desperate need of Christ and His righteousness, etc. (Eph 1:4-13).