Do they always bounce below 100 or close to 100 after taming ?
Is there like a rule/formula as what happens to skills ?

I also noticed somethng which sounds weird to me.

Most of the Greater Dragons I see come with about 1,500 HP, sometimes I can find some 1,600 or 1,700 very, but very rarely I see anything 1,800 and above. I think I only saw one 1,900+ but it had orrible resistanced.
I have never ever seen a 2,000 HP one.

Instead, I often find Greater Dragons with nice set up of resistances, all 5 quite high.

Now, if it was only all about statistics and chances, being HP just 1 variable, shouldn't it occur way more often that Greater Dragons with ALL 5 resistances (combination of 5 variables) all as high ?

As I said, it does not compute to me. There must be something else in the equation which I am missing.

Hit points, strength and dexterity are halved at taming. Wrestling, tactics and resisting spells all lose 28% (X .72) on taming, but will train back up to a maximum of the pretamed skill minus 10% (X .9). Magery loses 10% on taming and that is it's new max. If you want to find out what your skill maximums will be for wrestling, tactics, and resisting spells, right after taming, before you do any training, divide those skills by .8.

As you can see, the ranges on these critters are absolutely huge, so finding a really good one is going to be extremely difficult. Also if you find any stats that fall outside of these ranges, please post in this thread with the number.

Most of the Greater Dragons I see come with about 1,500 HP, sometimes I can find some 1,600 or 1,700 very, but very rarely I see anything 1,800 and above. I think I only saw one 1,900+ but it had orrible resistanced.
I have never ever seen a 2,000 HP one.

Instead, I often find Greater Dragons with nice set up of resistances, all 5 quite high.

Now, if it was only all about statistics and chances, being HP just 1 variable, shouldn't it occur way more often that Greater Dragons with ALL 5 resistances (combination of 5 variables) all as high ?

As I said, it does not compute to me. There must be something else in the equation which I am missing.

Anyone knows ?.

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See last statement above for this. Basically your asking the game to roll a Yahtzee for each skill/stat/resist when that creature is spawned.

Stratics VeteranStratics Legend

Wrestling, tactics and resisting spells all lose 28% (X .72) on taming, but will train back up to a maximum of the pretamed skill minus 10% (X .9). Magery loses 10% on taming and that is it's new max. If you want to find out what your skill maximums will be for wrestling, tactics, and resisting spells, right after taming, before you do any training, divide those skills by .8.

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Let me make an example to see if I understood.

Non tamed maximum wrestling is 145.

Now, minus 28% this means 104.4 . So, after taming the GD will show 104.4

With training, it will train back up to -10% of pre-tamed skill which means, with 145 as a reference number, up to 130.5 trained wrestling ??

Lastly, but importantly, which matters most Stats or skills ?

Meaning, since it is very difficult to find a GD excelling in both, if one had to make a compromise would it be preferable to have a Greater Dragon with excellent stats and reasonable skills or excellent skills and reasonable stats?

In the end, which helps more in fighting, skills or stats ?

The notes for the calculator say that "When skills are included, they make up 5% of the score" just like stats.

This means that they are equally meaningfull or do excellent stats help more or less than excellent skills, in practise ?

Also, are all skills equally valuable or, if one had to make a compromise and settle down on a less than perfect option, which skills are preferred to be as high as possible ?

Stratics Veteran

When I'm searching for a greater dragon, my primary concern is resists, wrestling and then HP. Resists, of course, will reduce incoming damage. High wrestling will decrease your pets chance of actually getting hit, and the high HP needed for a good tank.

Stratics Veteran

Me personally, I would have killed it without much thought. Stats, Skills, and resists are considered on a sliding scale at best. You have your target numbers, but reality says we have to make a choice on what we get to spawn. We have to accept the given stats. A choice is made to what is an acceptable leval on those stats, and at which leval it becomes unwanted. Some levals may be acceptable paired with other higher attributes. but again that is a judgement call by the tamer to accept those weaknesses. Each tamer will have different levals of what they will find acceptable.

I would find Hp's acceptable at far less than perfect, but that one is far below even my lowest acceptable standard.

Stratics VeteranStratics Legend

Me personally, I would have killed it without much thought. Stats, Skills, and resists are considered on a sliding scale at best. You have your target numbers, but reality says we have to make a choice on what we get to spawn. We have to accept the given stats. A choice is made to what is an acceptable leval on those stats, and at which leval it becomes unwanted. Some levals may be acceptable paired with other higher attributes. but again that is a judgement call by the tamer to accept those weaknesses. Each tamer will have different levals of what they will find acceptable.

I would find Hp's acceptable at far less than perfect, but that one is far below even my lowest acceptable standard.

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Now you got me confused.

I thought you did not give much importance to Hit Points.

Resistances on this Dragon were high, and also wrestling and tactics.

Strength and Intelligence average ones.

Now, could you please explain why this particular Dragon would be a failed spawn and not a good fighter ?

I am trying to learn here what makes a Greater Dragon a good fighter for high end spawns so, any detailed explaination helps the learning..........

Sure, it is always best to have all stats and skills maxed out but realistically, most often we have to settle for good compromise.

Why would this particular Greater Dragon not be such a good compromise according to your experience ?

Stratics Veteran

I did state why,
"I would find Hp's acceptable at far less than perfect, but that one is far below even my lowest acceptable standard"

Like I said above its a matter of what your willing to comprimise on stat wise. While I am willing to give some on stats/skills there is a leval I would not accept. This dragon goes below what I would deem as acceptible. If You would tame this dragon in no time you would find another that would have higher hp's but have less skills/resists that in the end would be a better tame than this one. At 622 HP's with the best being 1000, your talking almost a 400 hp swing, yes it would be a good fighter and take a bit more damage, but not enough in my book to make up for the amount of loss in hps.

When your talking a few points in resists. (80 vs say 85) your not talking that much difference in the damage its going to protect against. Again not enough to justify that large of a hp loss vs resists gain, in my book. It is basically what you as a tamer are willing to accept as numbers on your pet.

Now ask yourself this do you think that anyone would buy this dragon? or would you even consider buying it looking at it compared to what is availible out there? Would you consider it worth the time to train it up just to replace it later?

Stratics VeteranStratics Legend

When your talking a few points in resists. (80 vs say 85) your not talking that much difference in the damage its going to protect against. Again not enough to justify that large of a hp loss vs resists gain, in my book. It is basically what you as a tamer are willing to accept as numbers on your pet.

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Ok let me see if I understood what you are saying.

Your experience taught you that a Dragon spawning with lower resistances than this one, say for example,

Resists:
Phys: 80
Fire: 85
Cold: 50
Poison: 55
Energy: 70

But with, say, 220 HP more (at 850 HP rather than 620 that this one has) and, let's assume, same average strength and intelligence, would be a better fighter, overall ?

So, it is not an absolute truth that resists should be preferable to Hit Points....

There are times when the other way around is true (and that is, that it would be preferable to have a little less resists but get more HP) ?

Did I understand that right ?

If so, are there like minimum levels under which a tamer should never go, for each individual number, if they want to have a greater dragon capable of hunting the high end game ? What would this minimal numbers be ?

Lastly, looking at the Greater Dragons I spawned, I noticed that is it quite difficult to get high wrestling (above 140) to spawn, especially when coupled with high tactics (as close to 140 as possible).

They come up now and then separatedly in the high end range, hardly together......

Now, a Dragon showing these would not necessarily be a good one by default, then ?

Stratics Veteran

In your example yes the one with lower resists vs the hps (you made no mention of the skills so I will assume same skills in each) is the one I would be more likely to tame.

Usually I would weight the resists, then skills, then hps. Again to see how they fit in against what I personally find acceptable. As time passed and I tamed better dragons, what levals I looked for got tighter. So for me to say what I would keep or even bother to tame is different than what another tamer would keep.

For me personally, I would not likely tame anything with less than 850 hps. Does that mean I would not tame an 800 hp dragon with near perfect resists and skills? No. It just means that what its skills/resists are, become more important and less flexable on what they need to be.

And to be honest at this point I would not likely tame anything with less than 900 hp's, 83 phys, 85 fire, 120 wrestle tacts resist, 110 mage. But again that is me and I have a 4.4 dragon that allows me to be picky.

Stratics Veteran

Its strengths are in its resists, its weakness is in its skills. The high hp's and good resists will make this a good tank pet. But not enable it to do as much damage as a pet with higher skills. It will be damaged a bit more due to its weaker fighting skills, again resists will allow it to take this damage better.
in order to hunt the higher end monsters. You would need to help out in the damage area in order for it to be a more effective pet for you. This is assuming the skill levals you stated are post tame fresh (i.e. zero training, as any training will skew the numbers used in figuring your actual caps post tame). It will kill most anything albiet with a bit more vetting than a pet with higher skills.

Stratics VeteranStratics Legend

Its strengths are in its resists, its weakness is in its skills. The high hp's and good resists will make this a good tank pet. But not enable it to do as much damage as a pet with higher skills. It will be damaged a bit more due to its weaker fighting skills, again resists will allow it to take this damage better.
in order to hunt the higher end monsters. You would need to help out in the damage area in order for it to be a more effective pet for you. This is assuming the skill levals you stated are post tame fresh (i.e. zero training, as any training will skew the numbers used in figuring your actual caps post tame). It will kill most anything albiet with a bit more vetting than a pet with higher skills.

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Yes, the skills listed are without any training whatsoever. Freshly tamed.

When you say "in order to hunt the higher end monsters. You would need to help out in the damage area in order for it to be a more effective pet for you" do you mean something like the Bard mastery Inspire (Party Hit chance increase by up to 15%, Damage increase by up to 40%) or the Preservance (Party Defense Chance increased by up to 16%, Damage reduced by up to 16%) or perhaps the Tribulation (Target Hit Chance reduced by up to 32%, Damage Taken can trigger additional damage between 20-60% of the damage taken as physical once per second) or the Despair (Target Strength Reduced by up to 32, 20 – 60 Damage (Physical), every 2 seconds. Damage is 1.5x vs Non Player, 3x Damage with Slayer Instruments. Upkeep cost 13) ?

Or you had something else in mind like an Archer/Tamer ?

I hardly think a Mage (or Mystic)/Tamer could be of any help since no summons could be cast. Perhaps a Spellweaving/Tamer with a level 6 Focus and Word of Death ready to be cast ?

Let's make a practical example, shall we ?

Let's imagine, once trained, that I wanted to take this Greater Dragon to Navrey nighteyes or to the Slasher of Veils (just a couple of example of high end game but I could have mentioned some Peerless boss, instead).

Do you see this Greater Dragon as capable, with some help, of tackling them or I need to keep looking for a better one ?

What would be, in your opinion, the best help this particular Dragon could use ?

Stratics Veteran

personal preference for me is a weaving tamer. I have not tried the mystic yet so no clue there someone else would have to speak up at this point on that. Bardic masteries presents an additional challenge in that you will need to have mana regen to maintin upkeep of the spell while maintaining the ability to heal. mobs that allow vetting that is not an issue but most higher end critters do some sort of area damage and thus preventing the use of vet skills. maintaining bardic spells and keeping a pet healed may proove to be too much. Now bard specific skills such as discord may be useful but I find that weaving provides the best balance of damage and healing output. But again this is my playstyle preference what works for me may not work for others.

Stratics VeteranStratics Legend

One last question if I can. Since you are experienced in using a Spellweaving/Tamer, what spells, besides Word of Death, do you find yourself using mostly in your fighting high end game ?

That is, which spells within spellweaving can help more a tamer in the fight other than Word of Death ?

Looking at the skill, I would imagine Gift of Renewal though on a Cu-Sidhe it would be of a greater benefit than a Greater Dragon because of the natural self-healing of the Cu-Sidhe which the Greater Dragon does not have.
Or, Essence of Wind which might help the Greater Dragon in the fight slowing down the target though, I am not sure how much help it practically can provide...
Any of the offensive spells (Wildfire, Thunderstorm) is of any real help in the fight against high end game with tons of Hit Points ?

Stratics Veteran

Reaper Form -This provides bonuses to swing speed, spell damage, and resists. However, while in this form, the caster is susceptible to fire and moves at a slower speed.

Wildfire -A blast of intense fire inflicts fire damage on all opponents within its area of effect. Lasts for several seconds.

Essence of Wind -A blast of cold air inflicts cold damage on all enemies within its area of effect. Enemies attack and cast spells slower while under this spell’s chill effect. Chill effects last for several seconds.

Thunderstorm - A thunderous boom temporarily smites opponents with energy damage and may reduce spellcasting recovery time for the duration of the spell

Ethereal Voyage -Allows the arcanist to wander around in an ethereal form as if under the effects of monster ignore. Effect ends after the duration expires or when the caster performs a hostile action (whichever comes first). The arcanist is still visible to other player characters and may be attacked by other player characters as normal. Cannot be used during the heat of battle; also cannot be used while in other forms, such as vampire form. can be used to tame aggressive pets similar to honor tame.

Word of Death -This spell can possibly slay any one creature (not players) that is under 5-30% of its maximum health. Creatures that are not slain outright take chaos damage instead. Creatures that are under 5-30% of their health take direct damage. A few notable creatures are immune to Word of Death: Harbingers and Slasher of Veils.

Gift of Life -Death during this spell effect can possibly be reversed for the arcanist or a bonded pet under her control. If the caster or a bonded pet dies while under the effects of this spell, then she/it is instantly resurrected, restored to 50% health, cured of all poisons, and the spell ends. Only the arcanist and her bonded pets may be resurrected in this manner. Can be really useful when a peerless run goes bad

Arcane Empowerment -For the duration of this spell, the caster’s damaging spells (Does not exceed 15% PvP SDI cap) and healing spells are increased in effectiveness. Summoned creatures and animated undead are also increased in effectiveness. Quite useful when you are dealing with a heavy damaging mob.

Gift of Renewal -Increases the recipient’s natural health regeneration for the duration of the spell. The added benefit of heals can often times help a mage keep up with the healing of a pet when it is being hit hard.

Stratics VeteranStratics Legend

Several of the spellweaving spells you mention, imply an active participation in combat of the tamer.

Particularly, Reaper Form and Attunement look to me spells usefull for a melee character.

But usually, a tamer is played as a ranged character so, I am not sure of what beneficial use these spells might be. When and how you use them ?

As in regards to Ethereal Voyage, even with a level 6 Focus it really lasts too short to be of any practical use for taming where quite often several attempts are needed to succeed. I would be very interested in knowing in what type of taming you have found it of being usefull. I can only think of taming Cu-Sidhes or other positively aligned tameables.

I hardly think it would be of any practical use, for example, when taming Greater Dragons......

The offensive Wildfire and Thunderstorm aren't they too risky for a tamer to be used ?
I mean, most high end game usually when targeted directly switch target from the pet to the tamer and usually, this can spell trouble. So, is it really usefull to cast them in a fight ?

Lastly, I have a question about the use of Attunement. Does it benefit also the pet or only the tamer ? Because if it benefits the pet then I can see its advantages but if it benefits only the tamer who plays ranged, usally, I do not see much practical use for it.

Yes, it "could" be usefull in those situations where vetting is a must and, therefore, the tamer needs to stay closer (and can take damage from area spells) but usually those high end game have a tendency to retarget and staying too close to the target being fought can mean having them come after the tamer.......

So, again, I wonder how much really, in practise, Attunement can be used when fighting high end game.

Stratics Veteran

Several of the spellweaving spells you mention, imply an active participation in combat of the tamer.

Particularly, Reaper Form and Attunement look to me spells usefull for a melee character.

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you missed where Reaper form adds to spell damage. And I dont know anybody who could not benefit from an additional 80 pts of damage control(attunement). I always found it useful in a heavy spawn area where you can not expect spawn to stay put or is pulled nearby (doom, Milisande, Dread horn)

But usually, a tamer is played as a ranged character so, I am not sure of what beneficial use these spells might be. When and how you use them ?

As in regards to Ethereal Voyage, even with a level 6 Focus it really lasts too short to be of any practical use for taming where quite often several attempts are needed to succeed. I would be very interested in knowing in what type of taming you have found it of being usefull. I can only think of taming Cu-Sidhes or other positively aligned tameables.

I hardly think it would be of any practical use, for example, when taming Greater Dragons......

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I have tamed many a Greater dragon with this spell. yes I am 120 across the board taming wise but still knowing how long it lasts you can get a couple cycles in. I rarely had a Greater have to take more than one honor and one ethy voyage. between the two I usually manged to reel them in.

The offensive Wildfire and Thunderstorm aren't they too risky for a tamer to be used ?
I mean, most high end game usually when targeted directly switch target from the pet to the tamer and usually, this can spell trouble. So, is it really usefull to cast them in a fight ?.

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I used it extensively in many peerless runs Milisande, Travesty, and also in doom. anywhere where the target is mobbed and usually kept stationary this can provide additional damage. It is very helpful in keeping Travesties mirror images down.

Lastly, I have a question about the use of Attunement. Does it benefit also the pet or only the tamer ? Because if it benefits the pet then I can see its advantages but if it benefits only the tamer who plays ranged, usally, I do not see much practical use for it

Yes, it "could" be usefull in those situations where vetting is a must and, therefore, the tamer needs to stay closer (and can take damage from area spells) but usually those high end game have a tendency to retarget and staying too close to the target being fought can mean having them come after the tamer.......

So, again, I wonder how much really, in practise, Attunement can be used when fighting high end game.

Thanks again for the kind help and advice.

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Again anywhere where you need a bit of additional protection from damage it is useful. say taming aggressive pets when you have to get close to the pet to start the tame. sometimes even the best get to close and get bit. Heavy spawns where things can sneak up on you if your to focused on your target. Area effect casting mobs that wander to close or are pulled by other players.

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