My typical training program has a 4-6wk build followed by a test/race where I establish fitness improvements and reassign paces based off new VDOT values. I have historically built my own plans as bits and peices of others. I am looking for a plan by someone more qualified. I figure if I am going to do it, I might as well do it better.

Pfitz's plans do not seem to incorporate a progression in VDOT. If I am curently a 3:00 marathoner and want to drop some time, it seems Pfitz's program doesn't allow for increased fitness.

Can I get some feedback from anyone who has used the plans?

Also, can some recommend info on a plan more suited to my needs? Daniels' Running Formula and I am working my way through The Lore of running. Any other recommendations?

I don't understand how a training plan would inhibit you from using it as your fitness improves. Wouldn't your paces just get a bit faster? If the plan calls for 400's at 5K pace, just run the 400s at 5K pace for today (not what you were 4 weeks ago).

the plan has no test days, no races. How do you know you current 5k pace?

Just cuz it's not in the plan doesn't mean you can't go out and run one. It's a plan, not gospel. Tweak it to meet your needs, we're an experiment of one, yada yada yada. There are also no specific hill workouts in the plan. But I run on hills at least once per week.

I'm using the Pfitz 18/70 to target a sub 3:15 in May. I'm running two races in the next 5 weeks or so that are not in the plan. A half this weekend and a 5K in March. I might run some others. I'm moving some tougher workouts around to accommodate the races. Racing is good for you. So are hills.

I've used Pfitz's 55 and 70 plans once each. Initially wondered the same thing, but read a thread here and learned the magic of running by perceived effort rather than pace. Helped that I usually run in the dark, making it harder to look at the watch as often. Saw substantial improvement over the 18 weeks.

Also - I think Pfitz has some races in there, but later in the plan. If you feel you need one before that, substitute one in place of a speed or LT session.

MTA - typo

Do you know the feeling I know? When your legs have disappeared, and there is only your heart, your lungs, and your eyes skimming disembodied through the air? - Jeff

My typical training program has a 4-6wk build followed by a test/race where I establish fitness improvements and reassign paces based off new VDOT values. I have historically built my own plans as bits and peices of others. I am looking for a plan by someone more qualified. I figure if I am going to do it, I might as well do it better.

Pfitz's plans do not seem to incorporate a progression in VDOT. If I am curently a 3:00 marathoner and want to drop some time, it seems Pfitz's program doesn't allow for increased fitness.

Can I get some feedback from anyone who has used the plans?

Also, can some recommend info on a plan more suited to my needs? Daniels' Running Formula and I am working my way through The Lore of running. Any other recommendations?

thanks in advance

You could always use Pfitzinger's heart rate zones for each of his runs (they're in his books and on his website), and as your fitness increases, you'll run faster at the same heart rate. You won't have to test, you won't have to force a pace. If all goes well, you'll be doing your long runs 1-2 faster per mile by the end of training at the same HR. No guesswork. That's the beauty of the heart rate monitor---you get there in the body's time.

the plan has no test days, no races. How do you know you current 5k pace?

There's a couple aspects to that, I think. For starters, you probably have a pretty good idea what your fitness level is, at least w/in 30 seconds of your current ability. From month to month, you won't improve significantly maybe a 5 to 10 seconds/mile max. The other part is that your training should be by feel. Your training paces should be based on what you could run in a race today, in today's weather conditions, for your current level of fatigue.

The problem with using a race PR to base your training on, and hitting or exceeding those paces, is that not every training day is a PR day.

Let's say I ran a 6 min/mile pace for a PR. On any given training day, after say running 10 miles the day before, there's very little chance I could run a 6 min pace w/out over doing it. I might be 6:05 to 6:10, or slower. The main thing is the effort. I realize that's hard to do, but that's the intent. I'd use the training paces from the online calculators, especially when based off a recent PR. as a guideline. Just try to be near them w/out over-reaching.

Thanks for all the replies. I don't want to just incorporate in races, as I dont want to have to fiddle with adjusting the plan for rest and recovery. Honestly, this is for the wife, and she does better with a paint-by-numbers approach.

You could always use Pfitzinger's heart rate zones for each of his runs (they're in his books and on his website), and as your fitness increases, you'll run faster at the same heart rate. You won't have to test, you won't have to force a pace. If all goes well, you'll be doing your long runs 1-2 faster per mile by the end of training at the same HR. No guesswork. That's the beauty of the heart rate monitor---you get there in the body's time.

--Jimmy

I'm not a fan of HR training. I know lots love it. I've tried it and hated it. Maybe I will give it another go someday.

It seems like you are leaving a lot up to what state you are in race morning. What if its hot? What if you didn't sleep well last night? What if you are dehydrated a bit?

There's a couple aspects to that, I think. For starters, you probably have a pretty good idea what your fitness level is, at least w/in 30 seconds of your current ability. From month to month, you won't improve significantly maybe a 5 to 10 seconds/mile max. The other part is that your training should be by feel. Your training paces should be based on what you could run in a race today, in today's weather conditions, for your current level of fatigue.

The problem with using a race PR to base your training on, and hitting or exceeding those paces, is that not every training day is a PR day.

Let's say I ran a 6 min/mile pace for a PR. On any given training day, after say running 10 miles the day before, there's very little chance I could run a 6 min pace w/out over doing it. I might be 6:05 to 6:10, or slower. The main thing is the effort. I realize that's hard to do, but that's the intent. I'd use the training paces from the online calculators, especially when based off a recent PR. as a guideline. Just try to be near them w/out over-reaching.

That's interesting. I would think that was the purpose of a well drawn out plan. To have you ready for the hard days as you encounter them. Maybe I lack the running maturity to be able to do "just enough work." If I am left without a goal pace ceiling, I tend to turn evey workout into a race effort. My workouts follow a predictable pace, with in a few seconds of the plan's prescription.

If you're a 3:00 marathoner, you should already have a decent idea of your current 5K pace.

Retired 1/1/13

DoppleBock

posted: 2/14/2012 at 4:21 PM

I agree that we should be have run enough workouts that go well are too easy or we have toasted ourselves that we can run by feel. This is why I use time a lot in my speed workouts or I am running from point A to point B which is approximately 4 or 6,8 or 10 miles and I time it (No GPS) and later I run it again and time it at a given perceived effort level.

When I struggle a lot with work outs are when they are on the track - I let myself get driven my the clock and let the clock (Goal pace) destroy many of potentially good workout. Yes - Last time you might have run 1600 in 5:40 and this time running 5:40 will burn you out after 2 of 5. Running 5:50 might be perfect for you this time.

The crossed out part - After you are pretty darn fit - I can agree with the statement. But as you are building fitness or re-building fitness it can come in chunks. I can say my current perceived LAT pace is likely 7:00. If I stay focussed - In 5 weeks I would expect it to be 6:30. If I still stay focussed I would expect it to be 6:00-6:10. After that it will not move more than 10 seconds in a month.

There's a couple aspects to that, I think. For starters, you probably have a pretty good idea what your fitness level is, at least w/in 30 seconds of your current ability. From month to month, you won't improve significantly maybe a 5 to 10 seconds/mile max. The other part is that your training should be by feel. Your training paces should be based on what you could run in a race today, in today's weather conditions, for your current level of fatigue.

The problem with using a race PR to base your training on, and hitting or exceeding those paces, is that not every training day is a PR day.

Let's say I ran a 6 min/mile pace for a PR. On any given training day, after say running 10 miles the day before, there's very little chance I could run a 6 min pace w/out over doing it. I might be 6:05 to 6:10, or slower. The main thing is the effort. I realize that's hard to do, but that's the intent. I'd use the training paces from the online calculators, especially when based off a recent PR. as a guideline. Just try to be near them w/out over-reaching.

I have run sub 3 hour marathons in all of the last 5 years with no idea of my 5k pace. I have not run anything shorter than a marathon since April or May 2010.

Oh, now you're just taunting me. The tune-up races are by FAR the hardest part of Pfitzinger plans for me. I never run shorter than a marathon unless I have to -- it hurts too much.

Still, I think they make me a faster marathoner. Also I value the fitness calibration going into my goal marathon.

The quibble I have is that Pfitzinger doesn't allow for any races longer than 15K, except on the 85+ plans -- I always prefer to have a recent half time. So I just swap one in and do 8M the next day instead of a long run, as on the 85+ plans. I am dreading my half marathon this cycle, coming up in three weeks. I can already feel the knots in my stomach, the strong desire to just quit, and give up on training completely. I never, ever get that when I run marathons or ultras.