Say you have a RoS which gives about 6M protection from DM, the opponent casts multiple DMs, say 6.5 and 7.5M and in the end 8M DM gets through whereas if you have 2 EDs casting at about 4M each against a 5M DM you get 0 ED. (or at least the first half seems to work that way)

A middling DM can completely wipe out a non-RoS teams enchantments. If you look at the top 10(by score) you'll notice only 2 people actually use EDs with a decent amount of exp trained into them, Me(a RoS team) and Ranger(Who has almost no hp left if you have a high DM).

DM only casts at 80% of its level, while ED casts for 100% of its level (with varying effects). DM will forever be fighting a losing battle against RoS teams due to the protection increasing as well as being 20% less effective.

Okay I just want to point out one thing before you all get so excited about arguing these points.

There is nothing that says DM stacks up before the RoS protection. Also RoS doesn't state that it protects so much from each incoming DM. To my understanding DM doesn't stack beforehand just like AMF doesn't stack before hand. Rather it is that the RoS provides a certain amount of DM protection not a certain amount vs each DM.

There is nothing that says DM stacks up before the RoS protection. Also RoS doesn't state that it protects so much from each incoming DM. To my understanding DM doesn't stack beforehand just like AMF doesn't stack before hand. Rather it is that the RoS provides a certain amount of DM protection not a certain amount vs each DM.

Perhaps I am reading your statement wrong. But what exactly are you saying that is not already assumed in the earlier posts in this thread?

I think we all assume the following:

If you have a 5M effect DM and a 6M effect DM, you will have a total of 11M levels effect DM. Which will have the exact same effect as having 1 minion casting a single 11M effect DM.

If you go against a 10M level RoS which gives 4M levels protection, each of your opponent's ED spells will be lowered by 7M (11M effect minus 4M protection) levels. If under 7M levels, they do not cast for any effect.

I have had a mid level DM nuke 2 AS from a lower level character. But if the AS stacked, some would have cast.

Or even better, someone with a higher than 7M AS put a base AS on another minion. I will fight them and the base AS will certainly not cast at all. But make use that AS is on a minion to the right of the higher level one.

I say that DM doesn't stack just like ED and rather the inconsistency lies with the RoS.

I think we have proved, rather early in CB2, that DM/AMF/EC all stack before their effect is applied to the other character. While all ED spells are individually subject to the effect of the stacked DM. And each individual DD spell is subject to the stacking of AMF. With AMF you see the stacking as each minion casts it. With DM you just see the stacking amount cast.

Why is it that DM stacks before RoS reductions are applied to it while ED is affected case by case instead of final stack - DM effect?

I'm saying that this is not provable to be true as there is an equally valid take on it.

Another take on ED DM and RoS: RoS grants phantom levels to each of your minions EDs. DM does not stack before RoS bonus but rather the first DM casts against it and dispels however many phantom levels and maybe into real levels that you have on each ED. Then a second, or more, DM casts on each DE dispelling further.

The RoS defense does not show up in the post battle stats so there is no way to tell exactly how it works. But taking this view both ED and DM stack in the same way, it is RoS that is having a different effect.

There are some, myself included, that have believed that EDs should stack just like EOs.

That statement was regardless of the RoS.

We do not know exactly how the RoS works, ok, I can see your point on that.

However, my statement you quoted works just fine if you do not worry about how the RoS works.

We certainly know that DM stacks vs each individual ED without the RoS involved. If the RoS does as you say, gives xxx levels to each ED then the DM is applied, it would be easy to program the game just to take xxx levels from the total DM effect, then apply it to the total ED.

However,

There are some, myself included, that have believed that EDs should stack just like EOs.

This not a factual statement to be proven or unproven. It is just a desire. Something to be debated but not as fact.

We have proven that 1 7M effect DM will wipe a 5M and a 4M AS that is cost. Or a 3M + 4M DM will wipe out the same set of spells.

And 10M DM on a minion going against a 2M SS with a 12M RoS = 10M wasted levels. The important thing about DM is that with certain spells (I'm hinting at GA here) if you don't get rid of it all, you've effectively just wasted all of your DM. And with the way the RoS works, providing protection to the entire team, RoS backed EDs are currently in a great state.

And 10M DM on a minion going against a 2M SS with a 12M RoS = 10M wasted levels. The important thing about DM is that with certain spells (I'm hinting at GA here) if you don't get rid of it all, you've effectively just wasted all of your DM. And with the way the RoS works, providing protection to the entire team, RoS backed EDs are currently in a great state.

Typically one does not use DM to go after SS. You use it to go after AS/GA. Even if you do not get rid of all the GA, getting it to less than 2.5x your max damage is advantageous as it lowers the GA retaliation. And every level you can lower their AS, even without nerfing it all is helpful.

RoS backed ED characters are very hard and tough to beat. However, the RBF works very well vs them as they typically have a weaker attack than DD tattoos and typically the ToA.

Yeah, SS was probably a poor example (although not with a good team, it'd make you wish DM was stronger :) ). But, AS/GA is already pretty good unless you have extremely significant DM and if you under do it, it's gg.

I do very well vs RoS characters except for Epitaph. Who has 900k more MPR than Horror.

My DM is about 7.7M effective levels. While it does not nerf equal or higher MPR character AS or GA, it lowers them enough to give me the advantage. Instead of their AS casting for 7M a minion, it casts for 4M, which makes a huge difference in the AS/GA damage axis.

Or you can use your RoS and make you invincible to the largest DM in the game to get you 100% RoS, invest in a 500AC wall set, be invulnerable to physical damage, reduce magic damage by 75% all for the cost of less than 1/2 of the largest weapon in the game. Not to mention, to counter 18M effective levels of SS, you would need 20M levels of DM. And all just to make the AC of your opponent not insta lose the match for you. This is just 1 of the many abuses you can do with RoS, not many are as good as this one, but they are all good.

I don't think so, I was proving that DM is already a subpar defense against EDs. GA/AS/SS coupled with RoS's are very strong. If RoS got changed to block DM from each minion, DM would be a worthless spell for almost any team that is not single minion.

Or you can use your RoS and make you invincible to the largest DM in the game.

I will applaud whoever manages to make the first level 27M tat and reaches the MTL required to equip it.

>invest in a 500AC wall set.

If you can make an enchanter or wall with the encumbrance to equip that on a multi-minion team and get 100% of the effect I also applaud your amazingly high MPR, brownie points if you can actually equip a weapon that does damage.

...is essentially a 6.6M MPR single minion with either a 35% or 17.5% penalty on it's DD, only 5 rounds of ranged(or no ranged hit if a melee spell is used) with 3 0 exp kill slots, the 500 AC wouldn't be 100% protection from physical without SS, you'd just have a heavy mage with 2 useless minions and a single (RoS level/2) enchantment, it would work on some people - all strategies will - I just can't see that as impressive though.

Spread the exp out a bit more.
Say 10m HP with a 15m DD then train AMF on other minions with a SS backed by a RoS. To completely fizzle the SS with a 12m RoS, a team would need around 13m levels of DM. The only thing that this strategy would be weak to would be a VB.

King you weren't here for slayer's last huzzah were you? And he didn't even abuse it to it's full potential. You can easily fit a full wall(500AC +) and a weapon on a tank. Put a 16M tat on a Enc with 4M SS and a +10 corn and SBs. Now you've got a 13M SS with 6.4M DM protection, meaning 19.4M effective levels. That would require 24M levels to DM.... 24M levels.... wait not sure if you heard me... 24M levels. Now that you've wasted half of your exp, good luck beating a tank that's still receiving a 70% reduction to physical and 50% reduction to magic. DM in no way and unless CB goes under some mass rehaul will ever be over powered. I feel like Sut over here just beating my head against a wall.

Yeah SK, I haven't decided what I like better yet. A tank or the mage you proposed. A very high AMF can be deadly versus that strategy. Where as the tank could face problems from very high ECs. But DM, lol, yeah no thanks.

Mage doesn't need a weapon so you can cut out one of the smaller pieces of armor, like TG and still increase to around the same AC and have NSC as well. You don't need that much hp as it gets gratuitous at that point. Have or hire 1 small minion to train just AMF and hold the RoS with a base SS.

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