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The Exclusive Opera Lively Interview with Jürgen Flimm

We are honored to have interviewed in person one of the most prominent figures in all of opera, the prestigious stage director and opera company/festival administrator Jürgen Flimm, who was the artistic director of the Salzburg Festival and the Intendant, among others, of the Berlin Staatsoper (which I would call one of the top five opera companies in the world). He just recently (in April 2018) passed the baton to his successor at the Berlin Staatsoper, Matthias Schulz. At the time, when we talked with him, he still held the position. We chatted about his production of Salvatore Sciarrino's contemporary opera Luci Mie Traditrice. This interview, then, is another one in this cycle (we also interviewed the two lead singers and the conductor for this performance). Unfortunately for various reasons that have nothing to do with the artist, there was a delay in transcribing and publishing this piece, for which we apologize.

Artistic Biography

Jürgen Flimm (born 17 July 1941 in Gießen) is a German theater and opera director, and theater manager. After establishing himself as one of the exponents of Regietheater, Flimm was called to manage renowned theaters and festivals. His operatic productions in Germany led to an international career, with operas staged in the Netherlands, Austria, Switzerland, England, Italy, and the United States.

Jürgen Flimm grew up in Cologne and studied theory of drama, literature and sociology at the University of Cologne. In 1986 he became assistant director at the Münchner Kammerspiele, later director at the National Theatre Mannheim and in 1973 senior director at the Thalia Theater Hamburg. In 1979 he became artistic director of the Kölner Schauspiel. In 1985 he returned to the Thalia Theater in the same position, ran it for fifteen years and made it one of Germany’s most artistically and economically successful spoken theatres.

Among his most important productions in Hamburg are plays by Anton Chekhov (Platonov, 1989; Uncle Vanya, 1995; Three Sisters, 1999), Henrik Ibsen (Peer Gynt, 1985; The Wild Duck, 1994), Arthur Schnitzler (Liebelei, 1988; Das weite Land, 1995) and William Shakespeare (Hamlet, 1986; King Lear, 1992; As You Like It, 1998).

With the 1978 production of Luigi Nono’s Al gran sole carico d’amore in Frankfurt, Flimm for the first time emerged as an opera director. Three years later, the production of Jacques Offenbach's Les contes d'Hoffmann followed at the Hamburg State Opera, and in 1990 Così fan tutte was performed in Amsterdam. For the latter production, Flimm cooperated for the first time with the Austrian conductor Nikolaus Harnoncourt, who became his most important artistic partner.

During subsequent years, Flimm has produced works by Beethoven, Haydn, Mozart, Schubert, Verdi, Gounod, Stravinsky, Franz Schreker and others at La Scala in Milan, the Metropolitan Opera, the Royal Opera House Covent Garden, the Lyric Opera of Chicago, the Berlin State Opera, the Zurich Opera, the Vienna State Opera, and the Hamburg State Opera.

In the summer of 2000 he directed a new production of Wagner's Ring at the Bayreuth Festival. In October 2000 he staged Beethoven’s Fidelio at the MET, and in June 2002 he was responsible for the scenic realization of the world premiere of Friedrich Cerha’s Der Riese vom Steinfeld at the Vienna State Opera. In March 2004 he staged Richard Strauss’s Salome at the MET.

In 2011 he staged Händel’s Il trionfo del Tempo e del Disinganno at the Berlin Staatsoper, and in May 2012 Mozart’s La clemenza di Tito at the Vienna State Opera. Further productions were Manon Lescaut in St. Petersburg and Rossini’s Otello at La Scala in Milan.

Flimm was professor at the University of Hamburg and is a member of the Academies of Arts in Hamburg, Munich, Berlin and Frankfurt. He received the title of honorary doctor from the University of Hildesheim.

His prizes and awards are, among others, the Medal for Art and Science of the Free and Hanse Town Hamburg, the Konrad-Wolf-Prize of the Academy of Arts in Berlin, the Bundesverdienstkreuz (Order of the FRG), the Österreichische Ehrenkreuz für Kunst und Wissenschaft (Austrian Cross of Honor for Arts and Sciences), and the Ehrenzeichen des Landes Salzburg (Award of Honor of the State of Salzburg).

Between 1999 and 2003, Flimm was the president of the Deutsche Bühnenverein (German Stage Association). From 2002 until 2004 he was the director for drama at the Salzburg Festival. From 2005 until 2007, Flimm was the director of the RuhrTriennale, following founding director Gerard Mortier. From being the Artistic director of the Salzburg Festival from 2007 until 2010, he became the Intendant of the Berlin State Opera from December 2010 until March 2017.

Current Activity

After stepping down from the Berlin Staatsoper due to his desire to become again a full-time stage director, Jürgen Flimm directed at the Berlin Staatsoper Le Nozze di Figaro, and Snezen aus Goethes Faust (which is currently playing), and Ti vedo, ti sento, mi perdo at La Scala (the world premiere of this new opera by Salvatore Sciarrino, also currently playing at La Scala until November 26).

He is scheduled next to direct La Clemenza di Tito at the Staatsoper Braunschweig from February 11 through May 11 2018, then he goes back to the Berlin Staatsoper to direct Orfeo ed Euridice from June 22 through July 6, and Ti vedo, ti sento, mi perdo from July 7 through July 15.

The Exclusive Opera Lively Interview with Jürgen Flimm

Questions by Opera Lively chief editor Luiz Gazzola - copyright Opera Lively - links to this interview are allowed as well as brief excerpts, but to reproduce the entire interview please use the Contact Us link to request authorization, and include a link to the source. Photo credits are unknown to us at this time; if we're informed of the photographers' names we'll be glad to include them; meanwhile, it's fair promotional use.

This is Opera Lively's Interview # 233.

Luiz Gazzola for Opera Lively – Unfortunately I haven’t seen your production yet; I’ll see it tonight, although I’ve seen three other productions of this opera. Likely I’d have more interesting questions if I had already seen it (I only saw a picture with Il Malaspina wearing black wings), but given that I haven’t, please try to guide me through it: what is your concept for it, and what points are you making?

Jürgen Flimm – I did first, from Sciarrino, Macbeth. With Macbeth I learned about his music; it is full of gestures, of movements, full of life. I think it is really Italian music. He is from Sicily, as you know. I’m not a director who can formalize things. I don’t like that. I think theater is people. It’s people’s art. I always try to fill up the music of Salvatore, who is a good friend of mine, to make it lively. And this time, when I read the text of the opera and I saw it twice, and also looked at the DVD, I thought, “it’s the same; we have to fill it up with the scenes of a marriage.”

We needed to fill it up with a piece we know very well in Germany, from Martin Walser, called Die Zimmerschlacht, or Battle in the Room. It’s a very mean and evil piece about a couple. We all know about a couple; we had these experiences [laughs] of what a couple can do, how couples behave.

We started, and I tried to find out what is behind it, and why they are saying the things they say, and why they are saying it twice, for example, when the Servant says “I saw it with my own eyes” and then he repeats it. Why does he say it twice? It has a reason.

Then, very easily we found out that the boss doesn’t want to hear it. The husband doesn’t want to hear it, then the servant gets him back and says “I saw it with my eyes.” You know, things like that, and the piece is full of that.

As a director I’m not a formalizer. I’ve done this job for forty or fifty years and I could never do that. I’m always looking for the human quality in music, and the behavior of the people – how they hate each other, and how they love each other and all this stuff. It’s not really a concept; that is my way to do theater or opera.

OL – This is a libretto of phenomenal possibilities, theatrically speaking. It has this economy of words, but they are very powerful in expressing emotion.

JK – Yes, that’s all true; there is no question about that.

OL – The duet between La Malaspina and the Guest, for example, has enormous erotic tension.

JK - That is true.

OL – And passion mixed with guilt.

JK – That’s how she behaves. We tried to show that she always thinks “No, I can’t do that” but she is very attracted to this young guy. In our production this character is played by a young female singer; she is very good-looking. So the lady says “I can’t do that” but the young boy is very aggressive and erotic, and then he gets her.

OL – Sciarrino achieved it by just naming a few organs, including the title idea that their eyes are treacherous in the fact that they are contributing to this visceral attraction that spells disaster. What do you think of Sciarrino’s libretto?

JK – Everything you said is fine. About this libretto, I think that what you’ve written is exactly how it is. That’s very good!

OL – Thank you! Now that the product is finished and has been given in Bologna, do you regret any part of it and would rather do it differently? Did you make any changes for the Berlin performances?

JK – No, we didn’t make any changes. We were very happy with what we did in Bologna. That was a very, very interesting experience we had there. The people in Bologna were very nice, and the city is unbelievable. It’s a wonderful city. I had never been to Bologna, before. And the theater is wonderful. We played it there, and it was a big success. I hadn’t expected people to like it that much, but they did, and applauded it very much.

OL – You didn’t expect the success?

JK – No.

OL – But it’s a masterpiece! It is so good!

JK – It is wonderful, but you know, people in Germany are a bit sour regarding modern music; it’s like a lemon! [laughs].

OL – Mr. Sciarrino being a living composer, in terms of artistic ownership, how do you exchange ideas with a living composer when we are doing the composer’s piece?

JK – The last time I directed a piece from a living composer was in 1978, Luigi Nono’s Al Gran Sole Carico d’Amore. We talked to him in Milano and told him what we wanted to do with the piece. He didn’t like it. He really did not like it! We did not want to do a propaganda piece. We told him, “let’s look at the girls who are doing some illegal things; we’ll call them revolutionary things.” And that’s what we did. We staged it in Frankfurt. I was very young. It was the first opera I did. And then Luigi Nono loved it. He embraced it. He wrote me a letter saying how much he liked our version.

So, similarly, when I talked to Sciarrino, I told him what we wanted to do with his piece. Different people can make it differently. He talked to me and said, “No, I don’t think that’s good. Why don’t you do that, instead?” So we talked and talked, and at the end I knew exactly what I had to do. It was very nice of him to work with us. He is really very nice.

OL – Let’s talk about the characters, a little bit. Of the four characters, the servant is the more straightforward – just jealous and evil. The other three, though, and more deeply drawn. Please describe your vision for the psychological arcs of La Malaspina, Il Malaspina, and the Guest, one by one. Let’s start by La Malaspina. Does she truly feel very guilty or is she just trying to appease her husband, in a survival strategy?

JK – Her? It’s very easy. Like in life, there is a temptation, and you say “I can’t do this, that’s impossible” but then she falls in love with this young boy, like in the Rosenkavalier. She falls in love with him, and they sleep together. Obviously after she sleeps with him, she comes back and there is a big discussion between him and her, very nicely written. It’s a very, very good scene.

In the scene you see that she is totally relaxed. She is happy. She is so happy when she comes back from his bed! It doesn’t feel very good but she is happy. That’s what I like very much about this part of the piece. If the husband hadn’t killed him and her, it would be a very long affair.

OL – At the very end she knows that her husband will kill her. Do you feel that she anticipates that from the beginning, just trying to survive and appease him?

JK – No, no. Not from the beginning. She is bored with him. He is not very attractive. When she discovers that he knows a lot, then she understands that that’s the end of it. But not from the first moment. If you do her very afraid from the beginning, that’s very boring.

OL – So, Il Malaspina, now. He seems very ambivalent, does seem to love his wife and seems pushed into killing her as a matter of an obligation due to his time’s honor code, but at other times he appears frankly sadistic.

JK – He becomes very sadistic. He is a nice guy, in the beginning. He is weak, and he falls and faints when he sees blood, and things like that, but then he turns. There is a line when he says Sarà! He sings Sarà which means it will happen. And after that Sarà he turns and becomes very mean. We have this scene where he dresses himself with black wings.

OL – Like an angel of death; the exterminating angel.

JK – Yes, yes, like that! Exactly.

OL - Finally, the Guest. He pursues a reckless course of action. There is a danger of sliding into a caricature of the hormone-laden horny young men. How do you avoid this trap to give him a more interesting twist?

JK – Yes, he is very young. That’s first. He is young and that’s why he is a danger to her. It’s like Cherubino or Octavian. She is very pretty and he is young and a good fighter. He can jump above tables and chairs. He is very pressing and sexy. You understand that she capitulates.

OL – For her, it’s like “vorrei e non vorrei.”

JK – Yes, exactly!

OL – OK, let's leave Luci Mie Traditrice aside and talk about other things. You have directed extensively in Europe, but you also worked in the United States. Given the cultural difference, with Americans being less used to Regieoper (although this is changing), do you tend to approach an opera differently, here and there?

JK – No, I cannot do that. What should I do differently? I try to fill it up with psychological things, every opera I’m doing. In America they are used to that. You have a long tradition of realistic theater and films. You like that. Last thing I did was Salome. I tried to make of Salome a very intense family piece with her father and her mother, and that worked. The Americans liked it very much.

OL – Nice. Please tell us about the differences and challenges in directing spoken theater and opera, and describe how you approach singers especially when they don’t exactly share your vision of the work. You know, singers come with their own expectations of their role which they’ve often done before, or studied intensively, and they are also very protective of the musical aspects. So if a singer comes with his or her own opinions about his or her role and you have a different concept, how do you work the issue with them?

JK – That’s very easy. We talk about it, and I say “I think this scene should be done like that” and the singer says “yes, but I have this experience” and then I say “OK, let’s try my version and then let’s try your version too; perhaps the two visions will come together.” At the end we are both very happy and nobody knows which side’s ideas prevailed. That’s wonderful. At the end we don’t know if it’s my idea, or his idea, or her idea… I like it when they come to the rehearsals already with an idea.

There are wonderful singers like La Grande Garanča, or Waltraud Meier, or Karita Mattila, they know exactly what they do, and if I say "I want to do something different," they discuss it with me, and I love it. If you have a smart, intelligent singer as a partner, that’s the best that can happen.

OL – In this piece here, Otto [Katzameier] did his role some fifteen times before. Did he have an input regarding his part?

JK – Yes, Otto does that. It’s very nice when we talk together and find things. He is a very gifted and talented actor. He is very good; there is never a problem with him.

OL - You’ve done extensive administrative work for opera festivals and opera houses, such as being the Intendant here at the Berlin Staatsoper. What is your appetite for that, as compared to directing plays and operas? As an artistic director what are the main goals you try to accomplish, or in other words, what do you feel is your mission when you artistically direct an organization?

JK – That is a question, mamma mia! That’s a really hard question! I started as a director. My motto to work as a director was “I’m very curious.” I’m curious to look at how people are. I love to sit on a subway car and people-watch, look at how they behave. Are they reading, are they talking? How are they dressed? I’m so curious about people, that’s probably why I became a director, I’m sure. When I was a professor in Munich, I took my students to the subway for half a day, to look how people behaved, how fast they were speaking, how long they could stay quiet. I had a lot of success with that curiosity.

And then someone said “you have to become the director of a theater.” I didn’t want to do that. Really, not; that takes so much energy for me. It was in the late seventies, and I was in very good shape, being a very good stage director. I was going up very fast. I wasn’t finished with my directing experiences. Every time as a director you make new experiences. So when they invited me to direct a company, I didn’t want to do it, but I had a big fight with my wife then I said, “OK, I’ll do that”, then I went to Cologne, and realized that it’s the same thing. When you direct a play or an opera, you direct the whole building, everything. So I became the real director of the building, and I like it! [laughs]

I really liked it, and I liked it in Cologne, I liked it in Hamburg, and I liked it in Salzburg, and I like it here, now. I really like to run this theater, with a lot of people, and the curiosity is the same. That’s the explanation of what I’m doing. And sometimes I stage-direct again. When I first came here to be the big boss I was no longer stage-directing; there was nothing that was pushing me to the stage, but then, two years ago I said “OK” and started stage-directing again to see what happened. And that was with Sciarrino; it was Macbeth, and it was a very good experience.

And then I went to St. Petersburg, and Milano, I did a lot of productions, and they worked, and I also liked that very much. I’ll be leaving this theater in another year, and then I will stage-direct again, a little bit. I’m happy to do that.

OL – What do you think is different about the Berlin Staatsoper? What’s the character of the place?

JK – The Staatsoper is the oldest theater in Berlin. It’s now 270 years old. It was founded by Frederick The Great, and it’s a long tradition. There were a lot of good directors and conductors. The crème de la crème of European music was here, from Meyerbeer to the unbelievable Daniel Baremboim. [Editor’s note: and also Gaspare Spontini, Otto Nicolai, Richard Strauss, Erich Kleiber, Herbert von Karajan, and others]. It was always very important. A lot of these very famous people directed this theater. That’s what this theater is about. It’s about tradition, but it’s about the future.

See, this one is the fifth production of Sciarrino’s operas that we are doing. So we are also looking at the future and asking ourselves, “what is coming up?” Barenboim does the same. It’s not only me. It’s a very wonderful house, and it’s a nice house, with very nice people. There are no nasty people here, they are all wonderful and funny. A lot of funny guys, and the orchestra is a sensation, you know? They play a Romantic, Classic piece as well as a Boulez. They are playing the Notations from Boulez; this is a really good orchestra. They do concerts and they do opera. I think that is really unique in the world.

OL – Yes, it is important to keep opera alive and going. You do many commissions here.

JK – Yes, we have five commissions running, here. One of them won’t be ready; I gave it to my successor and said “you can have it, you should talk.” We are opening the new old house, the renovated house, and the opening night will be with a new opera by Rihm. At the end of this season I’m doing a new opera from Sciarrino. I’m doing this piece in co-production with La Scala.

[Editor's note - the new opera by Sciarrino isTi vedo, ti sento, mi perdo - here are some production pictures from the show currently playing at La Scala]

It comes at the end of the new opening season at the old house, so we are doing two contemporary operas there. The third one won’t be ready but my successor will take over. We do a lot of new music, especially also in our little house, the Werkstatt. There, you only see new pieces. We only do new music there.

OL - A couple of final questions on a more personal note so that our readers get to know you better: what drove you to the business of directing theater and opera, growing up?

JK – When I was growing up my father was a doctor. He did serve in the theater. He went to a lot of performances. My mother was not interested, so he took the little boy with him. So I grew up in Cologne, and I sat a lot in that theater hoping that someone would be sick so that I could go with him behind the scenes [laughs]. It only happened once, and it was a little bit interesting for me as a little boy. Behind the scenes it didn’t look so nice, I thought, and it didn’t smell so good. That was the beginning… Later when I became the Intendant at Cologne, there were still some actors there who were from that time when I was looking at them as a little boy. So I worked with the guys of my youth, and that was wonderful.

OL – That’s an interesting story! Please tell us about you as a person, such as personality, take on life, hobbies, other interests…

JK – Well, my life is the theater. That is a problem. My life was all in theater and opera. I have nothing on the side of that. I can’t say that I have any hobby like collecting things. It’s always theater. When I’m not in the theater then I go to my house in the countryside and sleep a lot and walk around and play with my cats, but there is only theater. And reading. I read a lot. I have about seven thousand books in this house. I eat literature. I’m married, I have a daughter, otherwise I’m very normal… [laughs].

OL – Do you do anything else regarding the arts?

JK – No, not really. I don’t like museums. I do go to the movies and the theater, but nothing else.

OL – What about your daughter, is she in the arts?

JK – She is studying History of Art. Like I said I got this passion for theater when I was 8, 9, 12, and I was sitting there, and the curtains opened… and I was seeing something I hadn’t seen before, and it was so wonderful. Still today, I sit for an opera or drama, and then the curtain opens, and I think “something will happen; I’ll see something wonderful on the stage” but it’s not always what happens! [laughs]. That’s a different issue. But I love that moment when it opens. It’s a wonderful moment.

OL – Thank you very much for this very pleasant time and this nice interview!

JK – You’re welcome!

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Yes, this was a very good one, indeed! Fascinating character, Herr Flimm! And very nice! One interesting thing is that I had not solicited an interview with him when I visited the Berlin Staatsoper, just assuming he'd be too busy (like, I haven't been able to speak with Peter Gelb), but to my surprise, once I started interviewing the singers and the conductor, his secretary asked me, "Herr Flimm is asking why you haven't asked to speak with him. He'd like to speak with you. Several people have been reading Opera Lively here and we think it's high quality. He wants to know if you have a moment to interview him too." Needless to say, I was delighted and immediately made the time for it. He received me with a big smile, cookies and tea, and was extremely pleasant all the way. Are you listening to this, Peter Gelb???