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As to the first part, it’s as if all the Quadra’s were sat down one day as children and told one fact that they had to live by. For Betas it was the only kind of thing worth having is social power, well technically it was divided into to two; one side learnt that the social realm was were power was, and the other that if they accumulated power the social realm would fall into place. So you can see how a Sp first clashes with that dynamic.

What is the one thing/fact to live by for the other three quadras? I like how succinct that sounds.

What are soc-last Betas like? I'm possibly soc-last but I was often told before that I'm soc-first when I keep talking about groups shit and whatnot.. but then I just don't know where I'd fit sp or sx because I see both of them as playing out stronger for me than soc.

The problem is that Betas are so very much tied in with image triad issues.

And this... can a Beta have the image fix as last in tritype? I'm not good at many aspects of image. Like, certain F thingies, I'm clueless with them so I can't freely manipulate my social image either. I actually even find the idea of it annoying at best. Stupid masks and personas, I couldn't give a shit, it would go against my tendencies, I like being uninhibited. I can deal with the directly physical/material aspects of status though and I readily do so. Still I don't depend on receiving external validation so I don't type as enneagram 3. I have some other aspects of type 3 otherwise, I do like to strive for a few things that typical 3's go for. Otoh I always liked type 4 even though I know I'm nothing like a 4. I'd sometimes like to think I have 4 as my image fix, even if a weak fix, because it's pretty cool somehow, those intense feeling thingies and whatnot. And the question of identity, it's also somehow really interesting and 4's are all about that.

Originally Posted by Noon

These are the people who dream big dreams and are capable of achieving them, who aren't fazed by the obstacles that so often stand in the IEI's path.

That one never made sense to me tbh. This sounds like it's describing a Se-lead type who's very well-developed while the IEI as mentioned here is very undeveloped. I think just because someone's Se-lead it doesn't mean they can automatically achieve big dreams without any trouble. I think the Ni is needed too for that. And then a well-developed IEI would be ok with actually doing the things that are important for him/her, instead of sitting at home being depressed all the time, no?

I get the rest of the Se dual seeking description, just not this part...

I was also thinking that IEI being a head type isn't so impossible, Ni is pretty cerebral no?

Can an IEI be cerebral? Absolutely, but if I remember correctly enneagram is about neuroses and the coping mechanisms that we employ. Gut types revert to base instincts under extreme stress, head types escape into their minds and new information, Image types work relentlessly to maintain their image. Head types do seem to correspond to Ne Si in general, and their issues do work well with Alphas in specific. E6 if I remember under stress in prone to over analysis, rather than the acquisition of new information; which could definitely work for Ni leading, 5 and 7 though? E7 is Ne leading, and e5 is very Alpha NT, their deep seated need to acquire new information is so anti Ni.

It’s more about probability, e6 and e9 are universal concepts, but the tie in between image and Beta NF is extremely strong. how do I explain it……. ah here we go, somewhere along the way Beta NFs learn the very true lesson that how you are perceived will play a large part in how life pans out for you, and that learning to control this perception is incredibly powerful and useful. IEI strive to be masters of their image, now depending on various factors the quality of that control is highly variable.

I will put this in term of internet forum users; at the lower end we have those who make a large splash trying to force people into a certain perspective of them. They will start very dramatic threads promoting the things these forums tend to value; romance, being different, unique perspective. What those at the lower end don’t do well is subtlety; they will wander into threads and speak of current or past relationships, and infer how mind blowing and destined the relationship was. Or they will find ways to talk about how their job or whatever there doing in real life is amazingly special and important*.

At the other end of the spectrum you have the masters of image control it is both fascinating and terrifying to watch. They have realised that by carefully filtering the information people receive about them, they can very subtlety convince them of the image they want. The subtlety and planning is quite frankly astonishing; it’s kind of like someone made a Lego pyramid of the size of those at Giza and their revealing it to you piece by piece.

So while a IEI who isn’t a heart type is perfectly possible; a lot of the attributes and habits we throw at them simply won’t apply

*Actually a really common occurrence is the inevitable Beta versus Delta, Gamma clash. It is hilarious to watch the Delta gets sick of this perceived fakery and calls them out, which only causes the Beta to stringently reinforce the image. The Gammas on the other hand seem to have a higher tolerance for it but once a certain point is crossed they usually deliver some sort of soul crushing one liner.

PS I will write up the Quadra life lessons at some point and put it in my blog it’s a bit OT to do it here.

Just looking for a protector, God never reached out in time, There's love, that is a saviour, But that ain't no love of mine
My Love it kills me slowly, Slowly I could die, And when she sleeps she hears the blues, Sees shades of black and white

Can an IEI be cerebral? Absolutely, but if I remember correctly enneagram is about neuroses and the coping mechanisms that we employ. Gut types revert to base instincts under extreme stress, head types escape into their minds and new information, Image types work relentlessly to maintain their image. Head types do seem to correspond to Ne Si in general, and their issues do work well with Alphas in specific. E6 if I remember under stress in prone to over analysis, rather than the acquisition of new information; which could definitely work for Ni leading, 5 and 7 though? E7 is Ne leading, and e5 is very Alpha NT, their deep seated need to acquire new information is so anti Ni.

Yeah enneagram is about neuroses. Do you think socionics also attempts to touch on those? With superego or superid stuff?

Hm I didn't realize E5 was into always acquiring new kinds of information and not e.g. delving deeper just into one topic... surely they can be quite happy to do that? And then Ni-leads can be E5's just fine.

It’s more about probability, e6 and e9 are universal concepts, but the tie in between image and Beta NF is extremely strong. how do I explain it……. ah here we go, somewhere along the way Beta NFs learn the very true lesson that how you are perceived will play a large part in how life pans out for you, and that learning to control this perception is incredibly powerful and useful. IEI strive to be masters of their image, now depending on various factors the quality of that control is highly variable.

I will put this in term of internet forum users; at the lower end we have those who make a large splash trying to force people into a certain perspective of them. They will start very dramatic threads promoting the things these forums tend to value; romance, being different, unique perspective. What those at the lower end don’t do well is subtlety; they will wander into threads and speak of current or past relationships, and infer how mind blowing and destined the relationship was. Or they will find ways to talk about how their job or whatever there doing in real life is amazingly special and important*.

At the other end of the spectrum you have the masters of image control it is both fascinating and terrifying to watch. They have realised that by carefully filtering the information people receive about them, they can very subtlety convince them of the image they want. The subtlety and planning is quite frankly astonishing; it’s kind of like someone made a Lego pyramid of the size of those at Giza and their revealing it to you piece by piece.

Yeah I see.

How good are Beta STs in this sort of subtle image building? I described my stance on image above as someone with image fix being the last in tritype...

And, I was asking above how soc-last instinct can work out with Beta... any thoughts on that?

*Actually a really common occurrence is the inevitable Beta versus Delta, Gamma clash. It is hilarious to watch the Delta gets sick of this perceived fakery and calls them out, which only causes the Beta to stringently reinforce the image. The Gammas on the other hand seem to have a higher tolerance for it but once a certain point is crossed they usually deliver some sort of soul crushing one liner.

Lol sounds like fun. What do the Alphas do with the crazy Beta fakery? :P

PS I will write up the Quadra life lessons at some point and put it in my blog it’s a bit OT to do it here.

My line to e3 as a 6 makes me image-conscious, but it's more in terms of worrying about how my image is being received and how that will lead people to react to me. I also don't want to broadcast one that doesn't authentically represent me. In that way I especially worry if people are perceiving me to be inauthentic.

I’m coming back to this post because there was just something very squiggly about it; something odd something I am definitely missing.

Originally Posted by Noon

A lot of people seem to say this, that I seem so tranquil or cerebral on the outside that it surprises them to find out how charged I am underneath. Not sure if I'd use the word volatile but I do feel things intensely. I attribute this calm/intense double-existence to being sp/sx.

I assume by this you mean that you don’t put your emotions out everywhere you either channel it or alternatively only reveal this side to those who are close to you? Because that is extremely Alpha, if you read Gulenko’s group perceptions you will find them labelled as “shallow,” they rarely express emotions especially disruptive ones in group settings; feeling that they don’t have the right (Se), or the moral imperative (Fi).

But more than calm I would say muted - through not having developed the Se that I should have by now. I've learned to express myself creatively but not through presence. My fear of [being overwhelmed by] Se in both systems is what keeps me detaching from it and appearing to be unusually calm as a result.

That’s JCF masquerading as socionics, a IEIs Se motivations remain the same regardless of how effective they are at Se. IEIs particularly Ni subtype are emotionally explosive individuals, the less developed ones tend to have horrible control and unleash it willy nilly think Fiona Apple. At the other end of the spectrum, an IEI will carefully express emotions to control an environment. But no matter which way you swing it they are very expressive, because emotional expression is a very useful tool to have.

That this thread is displaying zero Se is kind of hilarious but unfortunately as to be expected. Would this make me an EII?

The thing is that this is the type of thread that should be smothered in Se; it should permeate from every single one of your posts. You don’t get any more self-absorbed then a type me thread, and yet all I see is a very detailed, extremely logical self-analysis of a very high quality.

Taking it back to pure Jung, I've seen my animus to essentially be socionics Se personified. I have this admiration of Se-ish types:

On further consideration I have decided this definition of IEI SLE duality is completely useless. One; SLEs are not, “big dreamers” that is the purview of Ne leads, versus Ni leads who are long term dreamers, SLEs really struggle with both. Secondly it’s so vague it could be applied to IXXp EXXp relationships, hell it could apply to IXXx EXXx relationships. I’m blaming it on a bad machine translation.

Originally Posted by infinity-

Yeah enneagram is about neuroses. Do you think socionics also attempts to touch on those? With superego or superid stuff?

Hm I didn't realize E5 was into always acquiring new kinds of information and not e.g. delving deeper just into one topic... surely they can be quite happy to do that? And then Ni-leads can be E5's just fine.

If I remember correctly and I am rusty at enneagram, a five under stress disintegrates to a seven, they essentially become terrified that they are incompetent and cannot deal with reality. They absorb copious amounts of theoretical data in the hopes of overcoming this dread, mental avarice. A healthy five becomes an expert in whatever field they wish; having learnt how to take care of themselves. In my mind that really does sound like Alpha NTs getting a handle on the Id Block.

How good are Beta STs in this sort of subtle image building? I described my stance on image above as someone with image fix being the last in tritype...

Ah I missed that, Beta STs are quite bad at image building. It requires an intricate understanding of group dynamics (FeSe), and the long term vision to see its usefulness (Ni). In LSI you will see next to no image building, longterm planning they can do, but social interaction really isn't their strong point. SLEs will often try to craft an image, but they vastly overestimate their skills and subtlety. To the outside world they usually just end up looking like self-absorbed braggarts, always having to be the centre of the story, the victor, the hero. The smart SLE often realise that the best way to craft an image is by doing what they do best practical ambition, let their work speak for them.

And, I was asking above how soc-last instinct can work out with Beta... any thoughts on that?

I think the idea of a LSI sp first is probably a common variant. SLE I would say it would be less common, but at the same time not impossible. A Beta NF Sp first, is just such a contradiction, it would end up making all of the Beta NF strengths fall on their head. The Beta NFs are the social butterflies; the Beta STs supply the logistics and drive.

Lol sounds like fun. What do the Alphas do with the crazy Beta fakery? :P

Alpha naiveté wins the day; they almost never manage to pick up on the image manipulation of the Beta NFs. when the cage match starts they do one of three things; one they avoid the whole shambles, two if they know or like the participants they will pull some sort of comic relief try to ease tensions, or three being confused by the group dynamics wander in an give a speech on individualism.

Originally Posted by Noon

My line to e3 as a 6 makes me image-conscious, but it's more in terms of worrying about how my image is being received and how that will lead people to react to me. I also don't want to broadcast one that doesn't authentically represent me. In that way I especially worry if people are perceiving me to be inauthentic.

Of all the Quadras the Betas are the least concerned with being authentic, hence why they irritate the Deltas so much. Betas NFs really do struggle with image issues often times it can become completely detached from reality; actually I might use this to show you a better example of IEI SLE duality. When a IEIs image starts to get so detached an SLE who is a master of objective reality will essentially pull the IEI up on this behaviour. Now if the IEI is in a healthy state of mind; they will correct it to align with their current environment. On the other hand if they are of an unhealthy state of mind, this approach will cause the IEI to react extremely negatively quite often explosively so.

Stratiyevskaya has an excellent, albeit negative example of this:

An example from life of an IEI-SLE couple: "She (SLE) has arrived to the music conservatory's graduation ceremony of her IEI partner in everyday work clothes, conventional business dress and boots, without flowers to present them to her IEI partner and his graduate advisor. She didn't have the time to stop by home to change her outfit - didn't think of this in advance. She didn't bother to put on makeup or do her hair. And of course, it did not occur to her to arrange for a celebration in honor of his graduation. However, she did remember to criticize him for his mediocre performance at the final concert, and the "C" mark that he has gotten for his graduate work: he's put so much effort into it and the result was less than modest, a C with so many difficulties. She didn't forgive him this mediocre success, while he has never forgiven her for her offhand and dismissive attitude towards such an important event in his life. And in less than a week they parted. After the concert, he went out to visit some of his friends. Then, a week later, he gathered his things and filed for a divorce. She thought that after getting his diploma he has grown arrogant and pretentious, and therefore no longer saw her as an equal to him partner. On the average, this wasn't too far from the truth: he didn't consider her to be someone sensitive and considerate enough to be a match for him. In some sense he has decided to take revenge on her for her rude and offhand approach to such an important event in his life. He tried to talk with her about it, but she again didn't understand him: "Who cares if he's gotten a diploma. That's nothing exceptional. He should try to find a job with this certificate. There are so many musicians around ... Now there's one more." From her point of view, it was too early to celebrate - with his specialty it wasn't clear whether it's better to even have a diploma. Additionally, she was afraid that his new requirements will lead to even further disappointments for which she will have to pay with her labor, her patience, and material support. But none of this has happened for he has simply left her. This new stage of him has coincided with a search for a new environment that is more accepting and conductive towards his bearing in life.

Notice the disconnected image? The IEI despite having only received a C in a music diploma, and ending up as yet another jobless mediocre musician still believed that the SLE was beneath his dignity. That his very average success was so much more then what it really is.

Oh wow I just read your first my type thread; ah this all makes a lot more sense now, especially why this all looked so unusual you’re the unicorn of socionics. Well maybe how much do relate to it now? I ask because your syntax has changed considerably since then.

Just looking for a protector, God never reached out in time, There's love, that is a saviour, But that ain't no love of mine
My Love it kills me slowly, Slowly I could die, And when she sleeps she hears the blues, Sees shades of black and white

Muted as in my personal presence is muffled. Think of a sheet over a lamp. People from ventrilo who are familiar with me might be able to confirm that my voice is emotive but my aura is weak. Creative expression is great for the emotional self which is probably why it was easier for me to learn. Expression of the vital self is something I have yet to learn. You might have noticed I used the word "lifeless" in that thread.

I'd say my personality is essentially the same but more emotionally mature. I won't speak harshly with intent to hurt just because I'm hurt. It takes a long while for me to get to that point - usually the feeling that I'm being repeatedly hurt over time. I'll also try harder not to display how displeased or unhappy I might personally be when in a group whose atmosphere is supposed to be pleasant or happy.

When I made that thread I'd been through some not-so-pleasant event in my life and was gathering what pieces of what self I saw to be there. I made a point of doing so as personally as possible so as to keep it "pure". The syntax you see here is my natural syntax. What you see there is my vulnerable self. It's actually very awkward for me to read over now. If I'd known I would be staying at this forum I probably wouldn't have been so daringly 'raw' in disclosure.

Muted as in my personal presence is muffled. Think of a sheet over a lamp. People from ventrilo who are familiar with me might be able to confirm that my voice is emotive but my aura is weak. Creative expression is great for the emotional self which is probably why it was easier for me to learn. Expression of the vital self is something I have yet to learn. You might have noticed I used the word "lifeless" in that thread.

So you lack presence? As though no matter how you express yourself it comes out muted? As though you’re so stuck in your own world that it is hard to reach out to the real world?

I'd say my personality is essentially the same but more emotionally mature. I won't speak harshly with intent to hurt just because I'm hurt. It takes a long while for me to get to that point - usually the feeling that I'm being repeatedly hurt over time. I'll also try harder not to display how displeased or unhappy I might personally be when in a group whose atmosphere is supposed to be pleasant or happy.

I thought it would still hold true, but I had to be sure; that is the single most Alpha list I have ever seen; if you took that to a socionics forum you would be typed as an Alpha in no time flat. Reading through it I am honestly surprised you ever considered yourself a socionics Se user, lack of ambition, wanting to spend your life seeing the world, and numerous examples of Si hedonism: love of music, film, stories, revelling in their content. Not to say a Se user won’t do this, (well a Si polr probably wouldn’t), but it would be a momentary distraction, not an important part of their existence.

You would probably be typed as a SEI, but people often forget how similar relationships of activity are; LII. Now at this point you are probably thinking, wait I am far too emotional to be a thinking type! But this is socionics it’s about observation being emotional does not make you a feeler. Having control over and being able to effectively use the feeling functions means you are a feeler. On the other hand being filled with emotional expressions, yet being unable to properly express them is actually a sign of Fe in its suggestive form.

LII it really does make sense, the lack of Se both in terms of presence and control, the detailed analysis. It seems somewhat obvious now.

When I made that thread I'd been through some not-so-pleasant event in my life and was gathering what pieces of what self I saw to be there. I made a point of doing so as personally as possible so as to keep it "pure". The syntax you see here is my natural syntax. What you see there is my vulnerable self. It's actually very awkward for me to read over now. If I'd known I would be staying at this forum I probably wouldn't have been so daringly 'raw' in disclosure.

Heaven save me from Se polr; in a forum that currently has such topics as “rimming”, “when did you lose your virginity”, and “where have you gone at it outside”, trust me when I say that wasn’t even close to being imposingly raw. I think that it was an excellent analysis of yourself; you should be proud that you could stare into the mirror so, not many have the guts for it.

Just looking for a protector, God never reached out in time, There's love, that is a saviour, But that ain't no love of mine
My Love it kills me slowly, Slowly I could die, And when she sleeps she hears the blues, Sees shades of black and white

So you lack presence? As though no matter how you express yourself it comes out muted? As though you’re so stuck in your own world that it is hard to reach out to the real world?

@bold: Yes, that's exactly it.

Wanting to see the world was about a need for an open space that would counterbalance the enclosure of my mind - for the above reason. It's also specifically social ambition that I'm lacking in. Social ambition ironically conflicts with my ambitions.

LII it really does make sense, the lack of Se both in terms of presence and control, the detailed analysis. It seems somewhat obvious now.

Lol. This can happen? The thought of my sociotype and mbti type being mutual inverse is so trippy.

If I'm really an ISFJ then LII would clarify quite a bit for me. But myself as a Ti dom... Are you sure? I identify so much with being Perception dominant. Isn't socionics Ne concerned with catalyzing change in the environment? I am almost totally oblivious & indifferent to mine.

Heaven save me from Se polr; in a forum that currently has such topics as “rimming”, “when did you lose your virginity”, and “where have you gone at it outside”, trust me when I say that wasn’t even close to being imposingly raw. I think that it was an excellent analysis of yourself; you should be proud that you could stare into the mirror so, not many have the guts for it.

Thank you.

Feels like my type must be hiding in a plot twist worthy of Shyamalan, all these haphazard distractions for rules.

Earlier in the thread I mentioned my current view on intratype structure is that it's 'lateral-simultaneous'. In other words, free form (relatively non-hierarchical) with the sole order imposed being Lead function values. Not sure how this would line up with Jung's views on individuation. Again it all comes back to question 3 in the OP. What I'm reading at least on the web doesn't seem to answer that question well enough. Growing dizzy.

@Eric B can I ask you what an ISFJ with a strong shadow might look like? Can someone realistically achieve individuation before age 30 or does the enneagram type simply exert a lot of influence over functional development patterns?