August 26, 2017

Indian guru convicted of rape. His followers riot, killing 32.

First, Gurmeet Ram Rahim Singh, a guru who claims millions of followers, was put on trial for raping two women in 2002 at the headquarters of his Dera Sacha Sauda group in the town of Sirsa.

The guru

His devotees apparently were anticipating that this supposed God-man would get better legal treatment, considering his purportedly divine status.

The town ordered an indefinite curfew to stop his followers from gathering but thousands had already left for the town of Panchkula where a court was due to give its verdict.

Singh drove in a convoy of cars from his Sirsa headquarters to the court down a deserted highway, accompanied by hundreds of police.

Ram Niwas, a senior government official, said mobile internet services had also been suspended in the states of Haryana and Punjab to stop people from spreading rumours and causing unrest. The army was on standby.

In 2014, the attempted arrest of another guru on murder charges ended with his followers attacking police with clubs and stones.

At least 32 people were killed and more than 350 sustained injuries as Panchkula turned into a virtual warzone after Dera Sacha Sauda chief Gurmeet Ram Rahim Singh was found guilty of rape by a CBI court on Friday. The followers of the godman have gone on a rampage in three states. The rioters torched at least two railway stations, a power grid and petrol pumps in Haryana. In Delhi, a train was set on fire in Anand Vihar and two buses were also torched. Media persons, including News18 staff, came under attack. The government's claims of keeping the situation under control fell flat.

Sure, religious believers will say this is an anomaly and doesn't really reflect on the glory of God. I disagree. Fanatic beliefs often end in fanatic behavior.

When people believe that God is on their side, and they're confident that what they're doing is God's will, horrible things often are done in the name of an imaginary divinity.

This is just one more reason to forsake blind belief and embrace open-eyed reason. It is highly dangerous to believe that you know truths about reality that are hidden from others and that there is no possibility of your being mistaken.

"I don't know" and "I could be wrong" are sentiments that should be cemented in our minds. Otherwise, even if we don't riot and kill people, we'll be prone to other sorts of fanatic dogmatism that were violently demonstrated by the followers of Gurmeet Ram Rahim Singh.

"I could ask you what evidence you have about all the things you believe."

There is a basis for every belief, even a belief in slander and bigotry. Nothing arises randomly in a creation all science proves has a cause behind every effect.

There is a reason you believe the unfounded slander. It isn't based upon evidence, since there is none.

It is based on your own internal choice.

And that is not based on evidence. But it is based on something. Perhaps some desire.

To then demand a higher standard from anyone else seems hollow, unless you do some homework yourself to question your own beliefs first, submit those to scrutiny, and amend them as facts prove otherwise.

RS books and other religious texts claim many things that are not true and not collaborated by anyone. Kirpal claimed that Sawan had authorised him to be the true successor and that the people at beas only wanted property.

Turns out it was made up.

Jaimal in the same way was not an appointed successor.

Nor was Swami a successor of Tulsi.

Yet you believe all this.

Without any proof. Just because it is written in an RS book.

now we even have strong evidence that Swami and Jaimal were both
self-appointed.

but you ignore all that.

I don't know if the babani incident is true. But it's likely. There was dispute about the Sawan Sadan flats and RS did not want them to be sold to anyone.

so why would the account not be true?

and I have heard it from others too. that RSSB offered to give back just the original money which they called a deposit and not purchase price.

so it all fits and makes sense.

You have made statements about KrishnaMurti that Mike above has just proved from his first hand experience are not true

Hi Skeptic,
My posts are being deleted. This had happened before here.
Most of us old timers are staying away from this blog as our posts are being deleted.
I am going to stay away. This confirms it for me.

There may be real and legitimate reason why the author may not want to disclose his identity.

That does not automatically mean the account is fake.

Neither is it true that if the author is known, the account is true.

Kirpal is known - he claimed that Sawan authorise him. Bit it's not true.

Jaimal is known. he claims he was authorised (actually he may not have - but RSSB books make this claim) - but it's not true

Swami Ji was not an appointed successor of Tulsi, nor Girdhari Sahib. He started his own when Girdhari appointed Shri Dihal Saheb, Swami Ji started his own mission.

That means he was self appointed.

It would not reflect very favourably on RSSB if the first two gurus were both self appointed and not authentic successors.

Because if it's okay for a guru to self appoint himself then there is not issue with Kirpal doing the same either.

So RSSB says that jaimal was authorised by Swami Ji to be a successor.

My question to One initiated and Spencer is this

WHY do you believe this account when there is NO EVIDENCE for this

and there is a LOT of evidence now that Jaimal was not appointed at all.

he used to go visit the agra gurus and it now appears he was just a representative and initiated on their behalf until later breaking away.

there is even the view that swami never even knew who he was.

certainly the biggest question is why Swami mentions all the successor names but does not mention Jaimal even once - when he is specifically asked who will carry on after him. Very strange that he does not mention his chief and beloved disciple Jaimal if that is indeed what he was.

It appears that RSSB has completely fabricated events to make it appear that Swami and Jaimal were both legitimate successors.

Why would they do that?

survival.

doesn't look good if the two founding gurus are not appointed successors.

Where you repeatedly miss the point, like a poor marksman, is this : the Path is a practice of meditation. No belief in any history is necessary.

Those who follow the instructions with diligence and devotion gain benefit from it, and they have their own personal, immediate and first hand proof. That is their own experience. Those who haven't gotten there are encouraged to keep at it.

Nothing complicated.

With that inner experience of balance, peace, companionship and joy, which science has proven to be very healthy, there is no concern about external third hand, and often fabricated narratives, at all.

point 1:
I really don't care about Babani account for one reason: I don't follow RSSB.
so it makes no difference to me if it is true or false.

however there is no smoke without fire, so why would anyone write this if no truth to it.

point no 2:
You both say that inner experience and mediation is the proof
and therefore it doesnt matter about history and self-appointed.

however, one initiated wrote very early in his comments on this post:

Just like Sant Kirpal Singh, Baba Somanath & Pritam Das, the Mastana Balochistani was not being given the authority by The Great Master Sawan Singh Ji Mahraj to be the successor or to start a separate sect.

So essentially mastana was never really the guru at all in the first place. And so the satnaam singh and the gurmeet singh were false successors of the falsely sect.

It's yet another sad episode of witnessing a faker posing as a guru - good thing is that he is exposed now

How hypocritical is that?

When it's others - it's simple - they were self appointed and therefore fake.

when it's MY guru in question, then the Babani account must be slander and the history about swami and Jaimal must be fabricated and it doesnt matter because I have inner experience anyway.

But you fail to see the point:

The followers of Kirpal say

"We see light and radiant form. out guru is true and we have inner experience."

actually inner experience means nothing.

it can be delusional just like the man who says he is christ.

every religious person says he has some inner proof.

there is no inner proof.

it just means you are convinced.

it is purely subjective.

it is not any proof at all.

it just means: I am convinced and that is enough for me.

The christian, the muslim, the kirpal follower, the buddhist, the mormon
they are ALL convinced - but that does not mean it is true.

This inner experience is not proof of truth.

unless you can prove to me objectively that it is.

The inner radiant form might say to you "You are the next successor"

is it therefore true?

will you sign up to be the next guru if you get a inner message from the radiant form of your guru that you are the next successor?

It will be real and convincing to you. So why not?

Obviously Kirpal was convinced he was doing the work with the blessing of his guru. Why else would he set himself up as guru?

Your ability to judge someone else's personal experience is based on your system of belief and no actual evidence of their personal experience at all. But rather than say "I can't make a judgment of someone else's personal experience," you label it delusional. And there is no evidence for that. All the scientific research on meditation proves that meditating improves cognitive functioning.

When you dismiss actual scientific facts, that is prejudice.

No real Saint wants you to believe the reports of others. They want you to find the best method of meditation and engage in that, learn from it, and base your beliefs upon your own experience.

Sawan Singh said that if you find a better method, please let Him know so He can also adoptee it. He Himself only believed in Sant Mat because it worked for Him.

You entirely ignore the very foundation of Sant Mat in your evaluation, but have no problem clinging to slander.

But you could investigate your own experience and deepen and broaden that experience for yourself through the exercise and discipline of mediation. Then you may learn the basis for your prejudice. I cannot conjecture on that. But you could find out for yourself.

You are trying to judge these things and have concluded all reports of inner experience are false. If that were so, no one would follow any Guru for long.

They don't follow a Guru because someone wrote their lineage in a book, or because someone else deleted their name from another document.

People destroy and forge documents all the time. The Holy Bible is a great example. Modern translations are still doing this in the name of "clarity".

People follow a Teacher, at least over a period of years, because they get something from that Teacher.

Where there is smoke there is fire.

So take the next step. Move out of all the smoke, and see the fire for yourself.

Mime Williams and Rs sceptic are one and the same. And he was caught many times on halft truths..manipulations and lies...too bad ...i considered him good fella but still.. too much manipulations for my taste....sad

My guess is you will think these people are all deluded.
Yet it is no different from RSSB or any other religion.

You would not believe this man is Jesus.
But I could say – you have to go and get personal experience then decide.
I can bet you are not going to go there to decide – you will decide from
your own opinion that this is just another of the many quack cults out there.
I have decided the same about RSSB.
And it is as valid as you will decide about this cult.
Is it POSSIBLE this man is really Jesus? Yes – it’s possible
But not very likely.

Is it possible that RSSB is the truth?
Yes – it’s possible, but not very likely.

You also claim there is scientific proof about meditation.
There isn’t.
If there was – it would become part of the school curriculum.
There is just some evidence that experiments show there may be
Some Physical benefits from some types of meditation.
You have taken a big leap to conclude that RSSB meditation is
Scientifically valid.

You then say:
No real Saint wants you to believe the reports of others. They want you to find the best method of meditation and engage in that, learn from it, and base your beliefs upon your own experience.

This is just RSSB propaganda. The saint of RSSB is just interested in making RSSB and his
Family richer and he has succeeded in his mission.
He doesn’t care about your beliefs and progress. He must be laughing at you all.

When you listen to the number of people who ask the guru for grace
You can see most have no inner experience anyway.

And those who do are mostly deluded and cannot even
Write a coherent sentence without mystical bullshit
I, for one, never understand what they heck 777 writes.
Yet, in his world, he is writing great wisdom.

"The saint of RSSB is just interested in making RSSB and his
Family richer and he has succeeded in his mission.
He doesn’t care about your beliefs and progress. He must be laughing at you all."

Once again Sceptic, you betray a level of ESP that would impress most Gurus.

You claim to see into the very motivation and thoughts of a human being you know very little about. You are depending upon stereorypes that belie your prejudice.

But, don't let facts get in the way. The record of sheer bravery during the immediate days post Tsunami among RS Satsangis who went into dangerous and unsafe places where no other emergency relief would go is a matter of public record.

You wrote

"You also claim there is scientific proof about meditation.
There isn’t.
If there was – it would become part of the school curriculum."

It is part of the high school and college curriculums in many states in the US... and that is because meditation reduces test anxiety, improves both academic and athletic performance, and reduces depression. Check out the Harvard, Yale and National Institute of Health's findings.

For a guy who claims to know the very heart and mind of others, you seem out of touch with modern research.

You are completely responsible for your state of ignorance, and prejudice, on this front, because that research is just a click away.

Hate must be learned.. It has to be taught and nurtured, and it becomes a persistent habit that has blinded many otherwise intelligent people to simple scientific research findings.

Dear Spencer,
I am afraid you are totally deluded if you think the RS technique of meditation has any scientifically proven benefits.

You have taken a few selected articles about meditation in general and somehow concluded that this proves RS meditation is beneficial.
You have to conduct scientific experiments on the specific RS meditation to prove anything about RS meditation.

Meditation is of many types. They are not all the same.
You have not answered the points I made about the man who believes he is Jesus.

Obviously you don’t for a second believe the man is really jesus.
Many who are not brainwashed by RSSB also dismiss the notion of a perfect master in the same way.

Gurinder is clearly a conman to everyone except his followers.
The proof is in his actions.

He has amassed a personal fortune for himself and his family.
He has done this using his position and influence as a guru.

I don’t need ESP or the power to read minds to make these conclusions.
Have you witnessed any power he has beyond a normal human being?

He is creating RSSB centres all over the world. What for?
Spiritual people are interested in the spiritual path – not making lots of centres..

He has private medical care, and flies business class all over the world.
He is a hardened business man not a spiritual adept.

Would his sons have become billionaires if he was not the head of RSSB?
The simple and only answer is “no” because he used his position as guru.

Only the converted believers cannot see this.
Anyone else can see it clearly.

Just as you can see that this man claiming to be jesus is simply deluded.
If satsangis risked their life, post Tsunami, so what? Did Gurinder? No.
I am not questioning for a moment the RS followers and their degree of faith.
This guru gurmeet also has many ardent followers who caused riots.

The number of serendipities°° surrounding a person
( disciples also )
That number must be immense around a real Sat Guru
and colossally amaze the in-crowd
The Catholic church has one per century and then so happy

Lately, Sceptic is cooking up a lot of stuff and this was the lamest of them all.
This is the biggest LAME and a False statement given by Sceptic:

❝ Even the free langer has gone at the major annual events,
instead food is sold which makes a profit. ❞

Not only at the major annual events, the Langar is available free of cost at Dera Beas for 365 days during the year without fail and is served to any person who reaches on time to attend the Langar with no questions asked.

There is a Satsang event coming up at Delhi's Chattarpur Centre on 6th, 7th & 8th October 2017 and Langar will be available freely. Every state's local centres like Delhi's Chattarpur serves free Langar whenever there's Babaji's Satsang event organised.

Langar, Satsang, Prashad, Darshan and Initiation are never ever charged at all at the premise of a True Saint.

I recently came across this short story about magic
and how we believe.

it's from "The Magus" - John Fowles

The Prince and the Magician

Once upon a time there was a young prince who believed in all
things but three.

(1) He did not believe in princesses.

(2) He did not believe in islands

(3) He did not believe in God.

His father, the king, told him that such things did not exist.
As there were no princesses or islands in his father's domains,
and no sign of God, the prince believed his father.

But then, one day............,

the prince ran away from his palace and
came to the next land. There, to his astonishment, from every
coast he saw islands, and on these islands, strange and troubling,
creatures whom he dared not name.

As he was searching for a boat, a man in full evening dress
approached him along the shore.

"Are those real islands?" asked the young prince.

"Of course they are real islands," said the man in evening dress.

"And those strange and troubling creatures?"

"They are all genuine and authentic princesses."

"Then God must also exist!" cried the prince.

"I am God," replied the man in evening dress, with a bow.

The young prince returned home as quickly as he could.

"So, you are back," said his father, the king.

"I have seen islands, I have seen princesses, I have seen God,"
said the prince reproachfully.

There is a sweet Sound in everyone.
If not, we couldn't live - it comes from the 90% "dark" energy
better call it Bright Energy, when heard by those of Compassion ( without agenda) , seeing it , hearing it
(the cruel ones don t see/hear)
Nobody needs a Master for this
But if you are bewitched or just curious,
an experienced individual can help to exploit it better
and he can give some tips

Then You see/hear that it is Who you basicly are and fall in Love
It's your state of mind and just that

Next HE will propose to join the State of Soul; higher up
and the Concert will start

before getting all excited, please ask what I am referring to. Did I say I was referring to Dera Beas? No - you just assumed that and incorrectly.

In the large scale satsangs that are conducted in overseas centres, (UK, Canada, Spain, USA etc) the food is charged for and not free langar. Usually a "packed lunch" for $3 or £2.50

That is what I was referring to, and you cannot deny that. So before calling me a liar, I suggest you get your facts straight and clarify what I am writing about.

Why are these charged for? People already give donations.

It is a profit making operation. And why not? Gurinder is a good businessman and he knows people in overseas centres will gladly pay - so charge them.

Of course he cannot remove the free langer at dera beas as it would be too obvious how greedy RSSB has become.

Also there are donation boxes all over Haynes Park and probably other centres. I thought they had a rule about not accepting donations without giving a receipt? Where has that rule gone? Certainly in the past you had to
have a receipt for any donations given.

Obviously it makes good business sense to make it easier to donate. Also that is anonymous cash and need not be shown in accounts.

Have any followers asked why RSSB is acquiring so much land and building centres all over the place? What has that got to do with spirituality?

It's because RSSB is a business. And land is a good asset, especially when you have free labour to look after it, maintain it and improve it.

It's all about money, money money. Why? because it's a rich man's world.

If Bryan is allowing this comment of mine,
I hope this is the last time I am replying to any of your comments. Because I don't want to engage in any further discussions with a fake person like you. You are neither a seeker nor a believer and not even a non-believer you are just like yourself.

You intentionally portrayed the wrong picture. And most people here on this forum knows about your intentions to a significant extent. You just slander.

You should really be talking about your own experience and feelings and not be a representative of others who are donating and who are consuming langar or who are purchasing the Pack Lunch without asking you.
Who has given you the responsibility of talking all this slanderous jargon on their behalf ?
Why do you think that what you are thinking about others feelings is more appropriate as compared to what they think about their own feelings ?

Your comments here on this forum are not making a slightest sense.

Has anyone forced you to put your money in the donation box ? If that is the case than you must protest against it.
And if that is not the case than what you are writing is nothing but just a slander.

If you think that you are donating and that is the reason you should receive the Pack Lunch for free, than instead of donating you should really be purchasing the Pack Lunch. How hard is it to understand for you ? I know that you know it's not hard to understand.
It's possible to wake a sleeping person but impossible to wake a person who is pretending to be asleep.

I couldn't agree more with Jim here that you are one of those persons who just enjoys involving everyone in baseless discussions and enjoys wasting everyone's time by first posting slanderous texts and then asking and giving reasons on it.

Right now what we are discussing is not about being a believer, exer or a non-believer... and not even about one spiritual organisation or the other.
It's just about being a truthful person, being a person of good characteristic values, being a person who carries some moral values.

I have not come across any other commenter on this forum who is as non-sensical as you.

If you believe in The Path, than you are making your own path longer and really longer. If not then you are just making your death really painful.
And if you are doing all these after being initiated then I would not want to repeat the words of Soami Ji Maharaj (read in Sarbachan if you want) but you are just creating a big mess for yourself.

May HE bless you with some wisdom and you will stop your own spiritual depletion.

Dear One Initiated,
First – why would brian not allow your comment? He pretty much allows all comments
Unless they are not making a point.

Why call me fake just because you can’t handle what I write?
You wrote “you are just like yourself” – well who else do you want me to be like?
I am not a believer or a seeker. Well so what? I don’t have to be either of them.
What picture did I intentionally portray wrongly?
Nobody knows my intentions – let alone most people.
Who exactly have I slandered?
I have made statements that are factually correct. I call a spade a spade.
What did I say?
*** Donation boxes are placed at major satsang events
Is this statement true? Obviously it is true. Where is the slander?
*** Packed lunches are available at £2.50
Is this true? Yes. So it’s not slander
*** free langer is not available at the same large satsang events
Is it true? Yes. So again – it’s not slander
Gurinder Singh has amassed a personal fortune using his position as guru
Is it true? Yes. So it’s not slander.

Why should I be talking about my own experience? I can comment on what I see happening around me. I am not a representative of others.
However, I am perfectly entitled to comment on what I see happening.
I have nothing against anyone purchasing a packed lunch. I merely pointed out that lunch is charged for now instead of a free langer.
Why would you get upset over that?
I correctly pointed out that RSSB is a business. Why do you get upset over hearing the truth?
What I think is not more important than what anyone else thinks.
This is a blog and everyone is free to post their opinions.
I have no issue with anyone posting anything they want to post.
You obviously do have an issue.

The comments I post make perfect sense, if you understand English.
I am not writing cryptic comments like 777 that you can’t understand.

You might not agree with them – so you call them slander.
But they make perfect sense.

Who cares if I put money in a donation box or not?
That is irrelevant.
I pointed out that the boxes are there – which they are.
So this is what you wrote:
Has anyone forced you to put your money in the donation box ? If that is the case than you must protest against it.
And if that is not the case than what you are writing is nothing but just a slander.

What total nonsensical rubbish you write.
So If nobody forced me to donate, then my statement becomes slander?
Do you even think before you write a statement?
And you claim I am writing nonsense, when you write things like this?
Whether I donate or not is irrelevant.
My statement is that donation boxes are all over there at the satsang events.
It is true that they are. Exactly how is that slander?

I suggest you go read up what slander means.
Next you write,
If you think that you are donating and that is the reason you should receive the Pack Lunch for free, than instead of donating you should really be purchasing the Pack Lunch. How hard is it to understand for you ? I know that you know it's not hard to understand.

Well no – that’s not hard to understand – but what is hard to understand is what you write.
I didn’t say that the packed lunch should be free for donaters.
I merely pointed out that there is a packed lunch and no free langer.
What has this got to do with making a donation?

So what I write is a BASELESS discussion just because you don’t like it?

How am I wasting anyone’s time? If you want to read, read.
If you want to comment, then comment.

But I am not making you comment.
Next you write
It's just about being a truthful person, being a person of good characteristic values, being a person who carries some moral values.

Good character? Some moral values?
How is that relevant to what we are discussing?
And what makes you think I have no good character and no morals?
And why is that relevant?

I have not come across any other commenter on this forum who is as non-sensical as you.

Really?
Check out the guy called “777” and tell me if you understand anything he writes

I don’t believe in any path – it’s all nonsense.
And it won’t make my death any more painful because I commented on here.

"You have to conduct scientific experiments on the specific RS meditation to prove anything about RS meditation.

Meditation is of many types. They are not all the same."

From a physiological perspective many forms of meditation are identical.

You are suggesting what, in scientific terms, is the issue of Generalization, or what is known as external validity.

Since RS mediation includes both repetition, like the Harvard meditation, and both visualization and passive mindfulness, your claim is doubtful.

Besides, the claims among RS meditators of finding peace and bliss with long term practice is identical to the reports of the other methods, maybe even to a greater degree. And those claims in the above methods have been proven scientifically to be based in physiological changes for the better in the brain.

Therefore, while you have offered a testable hypothesis, there is no actual evidence to support it. In fact the available anecdotal evidence supports the opposite, that the methods investigated are in common with RS meditation in so far as the measurable effects.

But you are most welcome to do your own personal investigation and see what happens. Then at least you have an anecdotal account based upon your own diligent effort. Instead of nothing, which is what anyone gets with no actual effort.

"Even the free langer has gone at the major annual events,
instead food is sold which makes a profit."

The major annual events are only the annual celebrations in India, the Bhandaras.

At these events, and every other day the Dera is open, the free kitchen is still open to anyone and everyone.

Events at all other centers, including Master's international visits, are not annual events, nor has there ever been a free Langer established as a tradition there. The food cost is below any food establishment 's cost for a similar item, and only covers the actual cost of the food. There is zero profit in it. And again, In India, at annual events, the Langer is free.

Master's foreign visits are not scheduled on any established annually recurring dates. No one knows whether He will visit an international center in May, July, August, or not at all in a given year. To try to pretend you were referring to these international visits compounds one lie with another.

To make a claim of profit when there is none, adds a third lie to your list.

I understand how you have justified to yourself spreading unfounded rumors, such as the anonymous property narrative, but why would you tell an outright lie, and then two more lies to cover the first?

I'm not sure you have met the minimum conditions for establishing truth, but rather than conclude that, I bring to your attention a simple fact you can verify, with a phone call or an email, for yourself. A little effort, and some humility, is the price we all pay every day for Truth.

Did you think you could own any truth without paying the price?

Unfortunately, Truth is not served in a free Langer. There is a heavy price to pay... That bloated head filed with pride.

It's too bad you've taken this turn. Brian makes a good point, based on a commitment to personal honesty.

You are writing nonsense again.
you wrote:
I understand how you have justified to yourself spreading unfounded rumors, such as the anonymous property narrative, but why would you tell an outright lie, and then two more lies to cover the first?

I have not told a single lie. Everything I have written is provably true and I stand by it.

The lie is told by One Initiated who made an ASSUMPTION that I was referring to dera
beas when I was clearly not.

Instead of ASKING me what I meant - he assumed. That was his mistake.

You now add to it by assuming he was correct. Even after I have explained exactly what I was referring to (international events)

To call me a liar - just adds to the nonsense you both write,

Only I know what I meant since I wrote it. And you cannot read my mind!

Major annual events - like for instance the UK visits is exactly what I was referring to.

Clearly I was not referring to dera beas because it's not true for dera beas.

Only a moron would think I was referring to dera beas.

Go do your research - those UK annual satsangs have been EVERY YEAR without exception and every JULY / AUGUST for at least the last five years, and most likely the last ten years.

so I call them major annual events and that is exactly what I was referring to.
Why would I not refer to them as major annual events?
That is what they are - major, annual and events.

You are now trying to prove the unprovable. So what if they are not on exactly the same date? that doesn't stop them being annual except in your deluded mind.

If I was referring to dera beas, I would have written BHANDHARAS.

Besides, Why would I be referring to Dera Beas, when that is not true?

Let's get the facts straight.

Only one-initiated interpreted it that way and then assumed I was referring to Dera Beas. I never once said Dera Beas. If I meant that why would I not write it?

then when I clarified (not lied as you are saying), he has no reply.

first he assumes incorrectly and then accuses me of lying.

This is just nonsense - and then you do the same.

All I can say - is you are both not in touch with reality.

There is nobody more qualified to know what I meant when I wrote it than me.

I know what I was thinking about and I made it clear. He then calls me a liar and
you do the same.

I am afraid it just shows how both of you work - just to try to prove yourself right
you will go to any degree.

typical of believers who cannot see the obvious because they are brain washed.

So to you also - let me make it clear - I am referring to the UK and
international centres.

The food does not cost £2.50 in food costs.

any catering operation pays wholesale prices - not retail. The wholesale cost of the food they give for £2.50 is no more than £1.50, giving a profit of £1 per item sold.

The labour cost is the biggest cost - which is free for RSSB.

I don't have an issue with them making a profit.

If I was running RSSB - I would do the same and it makes good business sense.

RSSB used to have a policy that nobody was allowed to donate if they dont take the receipt.

I am just posing the question, "What has happened to that rule?"

Was it pointless for all those years?

And why now does that rule no longer apply?

I am posing the question. It doesn't become slander to question something.

anything you don't like to hear, appears to be slander to you.

The answer is actually obvious.

Back then they had standards to adhere to.

However, it makes very good business sense to put donation boxes all over the
place, because it makes it easier to donate.

it is not a question of "did anyone force you to donate?"

It is a simple matter of observation.

Donations are important to RSSB - they are a priority.

If they were not - they would refuse to put those donation boxes there.

They would say, "We are not interested in donations. if someone really wants to donate, they can go to the office to donate. we are not going to make it easy to donate because we are not interested in donations at all, we are more interested in spiritual matters"

At one time that was true for RSSB, but not anymore.

This statement is an observation, not slander. There is no need for anyone to get upset because it is a simple statement of truth.

only believers like Spencer and one-initiated get upset because is shows them what they dont want to see - that RSSB has become commercialized.

In Charan Singh's time there were no packed lunches and no donation boxes when he went to international centres for large scale satsangs.

This is simply the truth. At that time it was not commercialised.

Charan singh was no businessman.

Now things are different.

This is an observation, not slander.
and I have no malice in making these statements.

There was never a free Langar at the UK events. Therefore you cannot use them as an explanation for your remarks. Nor have you acknowledged the fact that there is indeed a free Langar at the Dera and two free RS hospitals. When you mentioned free Langar that could only refer to the Dera, since that is the only place that has had one. Again, you have compounded one lie with another.

As for scientific research clearly you do not know the basic principles of generalization and external validity. These are principles tought to every undergraduate student of the sciences in their class on scientific method. Nor are you willing to conduct your own personal investigation to see for yourself. Your remarks here are simply uninformed.

I understand how ill suited you may be for a life of meditation. It isn't for everyone. Certainly with anger and hatred it is practicality impossible.

Do not be disappointed if you did not receive initiation. Every request is met, it is only a matter of time.

If you did, your time would be better spent helping yourself, helping your brain, through meditation.

Pick the method that works best for you, and share that. Leave off slander and accusations. You will not help anyone by hate. But if you have something better, healthier, please share your evidence for it. That is always of interest.

"Hatred is like drinking poison and expecting the other person to die. "
Dalai Lama

"RSSB meditators are in the different state of mind. They are trying to get to the astral region and see the radiant form of guru

nothing like buddhist meditation"

Again, your statement reflects a lack of familiarly with RSSB meditation and the writings of the Saints.

(As a minor point, the Radiant Form is not the Astral form. No initiate is allowed to see anything until the third stage, as a general practice. )

As all the Masters teach, meditation is simply bringing the mind to a point of stillness and relaxation in the darkness, at the eye center. Techniques of focus, imagery, repetition, all with a loving heart filled with devotion, are employed.

There is no effort to go anywhere. Only just to be there, where we actually are, at peace. That's the whole effort. The rest of the journey is entirely up to Him. Along the way the initiate learns the art of stilling the mind using the tools they are given in the method, the vows, and the lifestyle of peace, faithfulness, responsibility, kindness and contentment - building the atmosphere.

These statements can be verified in the writings of Baba Ji, Maharaji, Bahadur Ji, Great Master, Jamal Singh and Soami Ji.

Please read their writings directly to see for yourself.

From a scientific perspective, the physiological effects of various forms of meditation are very similar.

But you would have to conduct real experiments on RSSB meditators to claim either it is the same, in effect, or is not.

Functionally, the most unique aspect is the portion of meditation devoted to listening to the sound current (Word, Nam, Logos, Audible Life Stream) . But that is just another form of focus.

What the sound current does has nothing to do with our efforts, but is simply an aspect of that inner experience which is built in and which we witness with even very slight focus. People witness the sound current all the time but aren't aware of it. The brain erases much of what you see and hear in the constant dumping of short term memory.

Even Buddha referred to the Divine Sound, along with LeoTzse. And so do Christian mystics (Jesus, St John of the Cross, the monks of the Thelokalia , Frai Louis De Leon, etc ) , Greek mystics (Pythagoras, Plato...) , Persian Mystics (Shams i Tabriz, Rumi ...) even western poets (Lord Alfred Tennyson, Emily Dickinson) all refer to the Divine sound, inner music, music of the spheres which pulls the soul into the highest region.

At the least, conduct your own personal investigation by practicing different methods, according to each school's guidelines. And then you could at least say what benefit you did or did not gain from each practice.

But you haven't done that.

So you cannot make any valid claim at this point one way or the other about the effectiveness for you of any of these practices.

However, if you personally have tried any method diligently, following the guidelines scrupulously, I would be most interested to read of your results.

You have written as follows
“When you mentioned free Langar that could only refer to the Dera, since that is the only place that has had one”

Dera is NOT the only place that has had free langer. Other centres in india also have them even when gurinder visits. So why can't it be done in the UK and USA and canada etc? Clearly it is possible. Free langer is available on seva days.

Instead of making false accusations, why not ASK what I mean before jumping to conclusions?

I could, for instance right now, say to you, that you are a liar.

You have written that Dera is the only place that has had a free langer.

Spencer is a liar. Free langer is also served at other centres in India even at major events when Gurdinder comes. So Spencer has lied, and nothing he writes can ever be trusted as he no morals.

That is the kind of immature comments that you and one initiated are writing.

Then you write

“As for scientific research clearly you do not know the basic principles of generalization and external validity.”

Of course I know what generalization and external validity is.

It does NOT mean (as you seem to think) that you can just take one research and assume it applies to all.

What you are implying is absurd. That I can do an experiment of buddhist meditation and then claim it applies to all meditation. This is incorrect and shows the type of nonsensical thinking that goes on inside your deluded mind.

The next two sentences you write just show you are not in touch with reality.

“I understand how ill suited you may be for a life of meditation. It isn't for everyone. Certainly with anger and hatred it is practicality impossible. Do not be disappointed if you did not receive initiation.”

Who said I was even interested in initiation? Or meditation? So why write this?
You next incorrect assumption is that I am writing out of hatred.
Again – lots in assumptions in your mind.

“The Radiant form is not the astral form”
Well you better tell that to your speakers and to gurinder who are all mis-informed as they say they are the same. Obviously you have higher knowledge you speak from.

“There is no effort to go anywhere. Only just to be there, where we actually are, at peace. That's the whole effort. The rest of the journey is entirely up to Him. Along the way the initiate learns the art of stilling the mind using the tools they are given in the method, the vows, and the lifestyle of peace, faithfulness, responsibility, kindness and contentment - building the atmosphere. “

Amazing nonsensical statements. If there is no effort to go anywhere – then please explain why the person is meditating? Does he not seek? He wants the results! He wants to get to the radiant for and eventually to sach khand.
That is an effort to go somewhere.
If the purpose is to be there where we actually are, then you dont need to meditate because you are already where you actually are.
This is the kind of nonsense that religious deluded people think. It is full of contradictions and means nothing. Which is why they are deluded.

Can you not see how much nonsense this is?
“Be where you are” - like where else could you be? If not where you are?

“These statements can be verified in the writings of Baba Ji, Maharaji, Bahadur Ji, Great Master, Jamal Singh and Soami Ji.”
You really think that all these people have the same teachings?
Swami Ji smoked a hukka. Why dont the others? Swami Ji did not even have the same initiation and meditation practice as the current RSSB does

Jaimal had no interest in acquiring property or building a large organisation and even warned sawan against it.

Jaimal created the five names initiation – swami ji did not use those fives names of Jot niranjan etc.
Swami Ji teachings are nothing like todays RSSB teachings.
He doesn't say that no effort in needed or that you are already there

many changes have been made over the years, so much so that it is now completely different from swami and jaimals teachings.

“But you would have to conduct real experiments on RSSB meditators to claim either it is the same, in effect, or is not.”
This is the first statement that you have made that makes any sense. Right now there are no studies on rssb meditation.
“Even Buddha referred to the Divine Sound, along with LeoTzse. And so do Christian mystics (Jesus, St John of the Cross, the monks of the Thelokalia , Frai Louis De Leon, etc ) , Greek mystics (Pythagoras, Plato...) , Persian Mystics (Shams i Tabriz, Rumi ...) even western poets (Lord Alfred Tennyson, Emily Dickinson) all refer to the Divine sound, inner music, music of the spheres which pulls the soul into the highest region.”
really?
Are you that brainwashed?
There is no shabd or sound current in buddhism or lau tzu teachings. Go check.
All the other examples also are rssb propoganda to convince followers that this is some ago old practice.

You really think Jesus and the others did RSSB meditation?

RSSB tell lies to make it fit. Logos, “the word” etc do not mean shabd.

This is RSSB propoganga to convince the follower that this method is ancient. It isn't.

you wrote as follows:
"At the least, conduct your own personal investigation by practicing different methods, according to each school's guidelines. And then you could at least say what benefit you did or did not gain from each practice.

But you haven't done that."

Brian has done exactly that for the RSSB path and decided it is not a valid path and that people continue to folloe because they have acquired belief and not results.

And what does "results" mean anyway?

You, one initiated and jim sutherland, to name a few, have ben following this for quite a while.

What practical results do you have?

Have any of you achieved the final goal of the RSSB practice?

Or are you still on the way?

How do you even know that if you have some results, that they are even valid
and not just delusions?

You don't have any practical help from anyone. You can make up your own results and have your own beliefs of what you have attained.

As far as I can see, after a lifetime of dedication, most achieve nothing.

The Babani example I quoted is an example. He dedicated his whole life.

Far more than anyone on this forum has done.

He had a personal connection with guru Charan Singh who had great respect for him. Of all the people he could have chosen, he chose to take babani with him on the world tours.

Yet - after all this - Babani died a broken and depressed man.

Put it this way - he certainly did not die as a shining example of the validity of the RSSB path, which is what we would expect from a true and valid path.

Put aside the matter fo the property dispute. How come he was not in the limelight in his latter days.

If you don't believe the story, then you must have some explanation of why someone as devoted to RSSB as Babani was isolated and depressed in his latter years.

Is that what you would expect from a true pathway to God?

Is that the reward for a lifetime of dedication?

His satsangs are available even now and show he was very knowledgeable and knew the teachings very well and his satsangs were impressive which is why charan singh allowed only his own ana babani satsangs to be available when he banned all others back in the 1980's

I think I understand an issue with your approach. You may not understand what a lie is.

For example, you wrote:

"Even the free langer has gone at the major annual events,
instead food is sold which makes a profit."

Yet you have failed to provide evidence of the disappearance of a single free langer. And you fail to acknoweldge the very real, current and active Free Langer that has been at the Dera operating every day the Dera is open, for over 70 years, as well as the two free hospitals functioning for over three decades.

But that doesn't stop you from defending your claim that free langers at annual events have been discontinued. It isn't true, and you promote it as truth. That is what a lie is. A lie you continue to defend without any evidence, or corroboration from independent witnesses.

You wrote:

"food is sold which makes a profit."

There is no profit in any of the meals that are served at any Dera function. And you have no evidence of profit in that function. But you claim it as truth. Even knowing you have no evidence. That is what a lie is.

So, two lies, defended heavily but without any evidence.

That is your theme, Sceptic.

Why would someone believe your words without corroboration?

That would be prejudice. Lot's of people love Donald Trump. He never speaks the truth. But he says things people like to believe. Mostly they are negative accusations of other people: Hispanics, Muslims, etc.....

So there is always an audience for bigotry. But that doesn't make it truth. It's still a lie.

And it is appropriate to call out such lies.

Then you returned to the Babani story in your last post, which slanders both Maharaji and Krishan Babani, without authorship, without any independent corroboration, and no permissions.

Babani was a great man, as was Maharaji. The story has no author, no reliable credibility, no independent verification. We don't know how he actually passed away.

You had claimed earlier you didn't know if it was true. That was a truthful statement.

But now you cling to the Babani narrative and claim it is fact.
You wrote:
"Yet - after all this - Babani died a broken and depressed man."

Actually, RS, you don't really know how Babani died at all. This unchecked narrative could be an invention. But your statement that Babani actually did die broken and depressed is a declaration that it is true, as far as you know. But you admitted earlier you don't really know. Therefore claimiing Babani died broken and depressed as if you know it is true, when you acknowleged you don't know (and said before you didn't care if it was true) is the very definition of a lie.

You either lied when you consented you didn't actually know, or you lie here claiming Babani died a broken and depressed man.

You can't claim not to know, and then assert this is what actually happened. And in neither case provide any evidence. That assertion by definition a lie.

So you are passing it off as truth when even you have acknowledged earlier that you have no evidence. This could just be the slanderous account of a like-minded person. The story is not slander by itself. It could be just fiction. It could be true but we don't know. It becomes slander in your hands, with the way you are promiting it and publishing it as truth. In this way the story becomes slander and you become the slanderer.

So why spread rumors that accuse of wrongdoing, and present them as fact? When you don't actually know if it is true?

That is hatred.

And hatred appears to be another term you do not yet understand. See comments above re; Trump.

"RSSB tell lies to make it fit. Logos, “the word” etc do not mean shabd."

No, RS Sceptic. Any serious student of sacred literature knows this truth about the Logos, Memra, Word of God.

Take a little tour of ancient literature with me, Sceptic. It's a beautiful journey.

Shabd, or the audible Spirit of God, the intermediary between Lord and Mankind, has been taught by so many, many mystics from the earliest to more recent times:

"He who brings the celestial Melody down from the blissful skies, alone is my Master."
Paltu

And from the Judeo Christian tradition:

Sacrifice and offerings you did not desire,
But my ears you have pierced,
Burnt offerings and sin offerings
You did not require.
Then I said, “Here I am, I have come
It is written about me in the scroll.
I desire to do your will, O my God;
Your law is within my heart.”
Psalm (40:6-8)

Word, Memra, Logos are the same in ancient Judaica, the audible Spirit that connect us to the Lord and to each other. This is specifically found throughout the Targums, the Aramaic gospels at the time Jesus lived. He promoted the Logos, or Memra, extensively, just like his predecessor, Philo.

First, the Logos / Shabd / Audible sound of God from the Old Testament:

" Now memra is the Aramaic for "word", which, in the Greek, is Logos. You will find it in Strong's Concordance. It is Strong's number 565: 'imrah im-raw' or memrah {em-raw'}; feminine of 561, and meaning the same:--commandment, speech, word. (Note: some editions of Strong's do not use the word, memrah for the Aramaic equivalent; instead they use emrah, leaving off the first "m").
In those cases mentioned above, the memra, or Word, shared the nature of God and at the same time was a messenger from God. Hence the phrase, the Angel of the LORD, because an angel is a messenger of God. The Angel of the LORD is a theophany or a manifestation of God to man, that is, God coming face to face with man. A good example is the Garden of Eden:

Gen 3:8 "And they heard the voice of the LORD God walking in the garden in the cool of the day: and Adam and his wife hid themselves from the presence of the LORD God amongst the trees of the garden."

The Targums read more or less: "And they heard the Word or memra of God walking in the garden in the cool of the day and Adam and his wife hid themselves from the presence of the Word or memra of God amongst the trees of the garden."

The concept of the memra is derived from Psalm 33:6: "By the word of the LORD were the heavens made; and all the host of them by the breath of his mouth."

The personified Word is also mentioned in some other places:
Psa 147:15 "He sendeth forth his commandment upon earth: his word runneth very swiftly."
Isa 55:10-11 "For as the rain cometh down, and the snow from heaven, and returneth not thither, but watereth the earth, and maketh it bring forth and bud, that it may give seed to the sower, and bread to the eater: {11} So shall my word be that goeth forth out of my mouth: it shall not return unto me void, but it shall accomplish that which I please, and it shall prosper in the thing whereto I sent it."

In the passage from the Psalms, the Word is shown as running like a man. And in Isaiah the Word goes out and accomplishes the will of God.

The New Testament also declares the supremacy of the Logos:

"In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. "
John 1:1

And this is an ancient truth:

From the Rig Veda, mankind’s oldest religious text (see The Upanishads, as translated by Shearer and Russell)

First, there is Brahman, Lord of all,
With whom there is vach, the Word,
And the word, verily is Brahman.
Rig Veda

The name to which mankind may hold
Is not the eternal way.
Eternal truths cannot be told
In what men write or say.

The name that may be named by man
Is not the eternal name
That was before the world began
Or human language came.

In that the namable took root,
The tree of fire and force,
Which, having blossomed and borne fruit,
Returns then to its source.

Who warms his body at that fire,
Sees nothing but its smoke;
But he who puts aside desire,
The flame’s self may invoke.

The Tao of LeoTse
(Written 400 BC)

The wind bloweth where it listeth, and thou hearest the
sound thereof, but canst not tell whence it cometh, and whither
it goeth: so is every one that is born of the Spirit.
John 3:8

I Listen to the Sound of God, and it is the only thing I attend to now, like the sound of the flute in the ears of the mystic.
Socrates (Phaedo by Plato [written 450 BC])

And from the Christian mystic of the Rennaissance, Fray Luiis De Leon:

"Before that holy song
My soul, submerged in its oblivion,
Recovers sense and long
Forgotten memory in
Its dazzling and primordial origin.

And having knowledge of
Itself, it comes alive in thought and fate,
And has contempt, above
All, for mere gold, the bait
Of blind mobs, or beauty in its false state.

Piercing the air, the soul
Reaches into the very highest sphere
And there it hears a wholly different mode:
Imperishable music, first and without peer.

It sees the way the grand
Master works the immense zither, and the way
He shapes the holy strand
Of sound with dextrous play,
By which that deathless temple is sustained.

…
Here the soul sails around
Inside a sea of sweetness, and finally wheels
About and then is drowned
So that it hears or feels
Nothing that foreign accident reveals.

O happy deep collapse!
O death conferring life! O sweet oblivion!
Now let me never lapse
Into the low, vile run
Of senses! Let my rest in you be won!"

And from more recent centuries...Lord Alfred Tennyson:

"A thousand summers ere the time of Christ,
From out his ancient city came a Seer
….
If thou wouldst hear the Nameless, and wilt dive
Into the temple-cave of thine own self,
There, brooding by the central alter, thou
Mayest haply learn the Nameless hath a voice,
By which thou wilt abide, if thou be wise,
As if though knewest, tho’ thou canst not know;
For knowledge is the swallow on the lake
That sees and stirs the surface-shadow there
But never yet hath dipt into the abysm,
The abysm of all abysms, beneath, within
The blue of sky and sea, the green of earth,
And in the million-millionth of a grain
Which cleft and cleft again for evermore,
And ever vanishing, never vanishes,
To me, my son, more mystic than myself,
Or even than the Nameless is to me
…
And when thou sendest thy free soul thro’ heaven,
Nor understandest bound nor boundlessness,
Thou seest the Nameless of the hundred names.
And if the Nameless should withdraw from all
They frailty counts most real, all thy world
Might vanish like thy shadow in the dark."
The Ancient Sage

"In Charan Singh's time there were no packed lunches and no donation boxes when he went to international centres for large scale satsangs.
This is simply the truth. At that time it was not commercialised.
Charan singh was no businessman.
Now things are different."

No response to that comment. Is that comment also a lie?

You said before that only dera beas has free langar.

It turns out that your statement was a lie.

because other centres in india also have free langer.

so - you are a liar.

Oh - I know - perhaps you don't know what a lie is!

You write such nonsense.

and you don't address any of the points that are valid

You simply ignore them.

I have already stated that I was referring to the UK and international events.

I have no knowledge if they ever had free langar. But there is none now.

Even you may not know - unless you have visited all the international centres.

If other centres in india have free langar - how can you be sure that no international has free langar (in the past or now)

The point is, there are packed lunches - and there never used to be.

here's a breakdown of cost. an apple 10p, a granola bar 10p
a small low quality wrap 30p. Small tropicana juice 50p
That makes a total of £1 leaving a profit of £1.50

It might cost them slightly more, in which case the profit might be £1

All I am saying is there is a profit.

Now I don't care if there is a profit - if i was the guru I would do the same

I am simply pointing out that RSSB is now commercialized.

In charan singhs time I never saw a packed lunch
or a donation box.

Can you explain what has changed?

instead of going on about "Oh I caught you lying"
which I can also do since you lied and have not yet addressed the point,
why don't you address the core issue

which is what has changed.

Why did charan singh not have donations boxes ? It was easy to do.

let me answer, since you are never going to respond.

He never had donation boxes or packed lunches because he was not trying to make money from the sangat that had gathered.

The lunches are a huge convenience for thousands of Satsangis and Sevadars. A big, big improvement. We get fed quickly and easily. Talk to the Satsangis themselves to understand if it's a huge improvement from the days when both Sevadars and Satsangis were greatly pressed with the logistics of feeding huge crowds in dozens of cities with no infrastructure, and little time. This makes it easier for Gurindar and his lovers to get together easily.

As for the Mystic traditions of so much international literature, what a shame you have no taste for it. I find it stunning.

But each to their own.

You may proceed to count the cost of an apple and a bottle of water, even while neglecting a much more valuable commodity slipping through your negligent fingers. Your precious time and attention.

I have no doubt that the packed lunches are a great convenience. I did not say they were not.

As a matter of fact, I am in favor of the packed lunches at £2.50

I consider it is a good idea.

and the free market proves it is a good idea. The fact that people buy it in very large numbers is the proof. It is an excellent idea and is very successful. It makes RSSB at least £1 per pack sold, which is a good return.

Like I said, Gurinder is a great businessman.

If I was the guru I would do exactly what Gurinder has done.

If fact I would charge £3.50 for the packed lunch. because the people are hungry after listening for three or four hours to stupid questions and jokes in reply to the questions.

They will gladly pay the £3.50 and will even say that I am doing it for no profit.

Very few will complain. Not too many sceptics around.

However, that is not the point we are discussing. We are debating if there is profit in the lunch, I don't care to count the cost of an apple, but have simply given you are cost breakdown to show there is profit.

Personally I think it is a good idea that there is a profit. Why do all that work for no profit? In that case you might as well do what Charan singh did and not bother with it.

Not sure why you mention international literature and how that is relevant to what we were discussing.

you have still not addressed the point I have now made many times about the lies in the RSSB books about successorship.

You say you are a great believer in evidence, but dont apply this to statements in RSSB books.

why not?

my precious time and attention is slipping through my fingers?

time will always pass. you cannot store it in a time bank.

It is being used, not wasted.

only the RSSB believer thinks it is being wasted because he should be meditating and trying to gain spiritual merit, not comment on this blog.

The Targums read more or less:
"And they heard the Word or memra of God walking in the garden in the cool of the day and Adam and his wife hid themselves from the presence of the Word or memra of God amongst the trees of the garden."

I like this
It's extremely clear concerning the actual state of affairs

This Sound is in every 7 Chakras entity in the universes
But we can just ignore !
Like closing the oxygen 90%

777

-
BTW
The apple must be meat, a steak
It slows chakra rotations of all 7 chakras
The uric acid in the blood is God's fire wall against cruelty
and the sound becomes as best a very distant echo

I like very much the story in Sawan s Miracles book of King Akbar or Ashoka ( i forgot),
any way the priests came in for audience
and to their amazement at least , the King was laying on a big bad
and a lot of beautiful girls were massaging him

Next the king sais : Come closer
and the saw he was laying on red hot iron plates

Then He said : " This has the same effect on me a That "

to my humble opinion meaning
that he was to much absorbed in that sweet beautiful ecstatic Divine Sound
than really attending protocols

Upon further thinking on all your logics, I actually happened to observe that you are quite right.

We don't know whether Tulsi Saheb Ji Maharaj were a True Saint and appointed Master, we don't even know HIS Master's appropriate name.
Also, there is no written will of Tulsi Saheb Ji Maharaj giving the successorship to Soami Ji Maharaj, which in turns somehow proves that Soami Ji Maharaj were also not an appointed Master.

So, given this observation, I would agree with you that the whole Radha Soami Lineage is actually not that credible. And in fact then we don't even need to point out any further accusations on RSSB, because it's credibility is already been proven to be not that up to the mark even at the foundation level.

And in such an organisation where we are not even so sure about the founders, I think anyone can expect the happenings on tunes of paid packed lunches with profits, construction of big centres, cases like babani and the recent one of some balwinder which you mentioned. I would say these are all fairly expected incidents and I am not that surprised actually. Those doesn't even need the mentioning.

So yeah, I have come to a conclusion that you are quite right in your findings.

Along with discussions on the online forums,
the best we can do for today is to spend a few hours whole heartedly filled with love in any style of meditation which is best suited to us as an individual OR in any thing which gives us that inner peace and that inner bliss. OR simply something which gives us that soothing happiness.

(Love, peace, bliss and happiness are quite subjective terms which are very hard to describe for any individual).

Tulsi sahib was the family guru and Swami Ji's parents followed his path.

Obviously there is no written will appointing swami Hi because he did not appoint swami Ji and in fact Swami Ji himself followed Girdhari Sahib who was
the appointed successor to Tulsi Sahib.

Only when Girdhari appointed his own successor (and it wasn't Swami Ji)
and after Girdhari passed away, only then did Swami set himself up as a guru.

He did not set up while Girdhari was alive because he treated him like a guru. In fact it is even possible that he was actually initiated by Girdhari and not Tulsi.

Similar to Kirpal. When Sawan appointed S Bahadur, Kirpal claimed he was appointed and started his own mission.

Its just that RSSB takes exception to Kirpal's actions and don't acknowledge their own roots as having the same scenario.

back in the day, this information was not freely available so ti was easy to fool the followers. However, these days with the internet and global communication, the truth has emerged and it doesn't look good for RSSB.

Hence Gurinder's advice to his disciples to stay away from the internet

"you have still not addressed the point I have now made many times about the lies in the RSSB books about successorship."

Yes, I addressed the issue numerous times, but clearly you do not like the answer.

Here it is again: The entire history of records is a history of forgery and censorship. Names can be added to one document, and names can be deleted from others. Several copies of a will, several different testimonies by the several signatories, certainly that does help. But it's a ball of yarn at best. Why waste time on it?

Therefore, since there are interested and biased parties, especially in matters of a legal will, or a family tree (with fueding members trying to erase each other's branches...which is why these are best written on parchment, that can be erased and re-written upon several times) who can say?

For that reason I have always adopted a different approach. The one I mentioned that Sawan Singh recommended.

Do your own research. Pick the path, be it atheism, mysticism, or pure philosophy, and pursue that. If it works for you, share that. If it doesn't, don't get stuck on what isn't working. Try something else, seek advice, find better teachers / teachings...etc...

You wrote:

"You say you are a great believer in evidence, but dont apply this to statements in RSSB books."

I love the RSSB books, but the only thing I can actually test are the teachings, the practice of meditation. So that is my source of evidence, and sadly for you, it's non-transferrable.

But for me, it is first hand evidence, and daily.

Sadly for you, you are relying upon fourth hand old documentation by people who died long ago, that may have been doctored by hidden interested parties after they died, whose names we will never know, just like the Holy Bible.

The Holy Bible has many fine truths about love. And a few hateful statements added by bigots down through history.

So I say, take what works for you.

But if you try to prove something in a will or a document, or any book is factual, something third, fourth hand or worse, without authorship, something based on rumor, inuendo, then you should be able to test it. And not being able to test it you should not waste any time.

Because you are spending time on something that can not be proven to YOU first hand. Only by inference, only by circumstantial and specious evidence. Nothing scientific at all.

Yet you are spending all your time on these fourth hand rumors and old documents choosing to believe one document over another.

You should not claim one document is true because you like the idea, but without any supporting evidence.

I wasn't seeking a lineage. I wasn't seeking a teacher. But what that Teacher said, struck me like lightening. And then the lightening, and the refulgence of an intersteller voyage, became some of the wealth of evidence that I have acquired. First hand.

And I believe that is the best use of time, learning and using something true for you, rather than expounding over and over again with an accusing finger pointing into darkness, a place you cannot actually see into...the past, and the inner realms, even the truth about the present.

And if my personal experiences can't be transferred, neither can your lack of evidence over old documents. Your judgment is based on your preference. And that also is not transferrable. But biased minds tend to gravitate towards one another.

So, at least make your evidence first hand, Sceptic. Why continue to soil yourself with rumors, slander and forgery, when you can choose to go for your own first-hand evidence?

That is exactly Kirpal’s viewpoint.
He said “get first hand knowledge and decide for yourself”
“Get the inner light – the true guru gives you capital to start with”
He also said if the path you follow does not give results, leave it
and seek another master and don’t waste the human birth.

With this reply of yours, you cannot then condemn this gurmeet Rahim
because his followers claim their own experience too.

Also we are no longer talking about wills etc.
History shows that Girdhari was the appointed successor
Swami Ji never even claimed to be the successor and was not even a guru
and in fact went to girdhari and treated him as a guru.
If he had claimed guru status, like kirpal had, it would be different.

It’s just after the event the RSSB books made that claim, not swami.
Swami never claimed any wills, documents etc. He did not claim any
successorship. The wills idea started with sawan and that is why kirpal
contested it claiming that spirituality is never given through wills, only property is.
He said, that spirituality is transferred through the eyes as he claimed to have received it. So I am saying that the RSSB claim that Swami was the successor to Tulsi sahib Is a lie.

You can of course say, as you have, that you don’t care as you have inner experience which is all that matters.
The people to went with Kirpal took exactly that stance.
They said who cares about fake wills when Kirpal clearly has the power as he gives light on initiation and RSSB does not.
The majority of RSSB followers are still in darkness even after twenty years of meditation,

So the idea of getting light on initiation has it’s attraction.
However it turns out that anyone can give light, it’s no big deal as there is a lot of self deception when the initiate wants to see light.

Hence all the kirpal successors ask about what colour light each initiate saw, which kind of makes a mockery of the whole thing because people will naturally see some forms and colours when they close their eyes, only they don't normally make a song and dance about it.

If it matters whether Soami Ji Maharaj were the True Master or not, then it also matters whether even the Tulsi Saheb Ji were the True Master or not.

I have the simple following questions for you, if you can answer them precisely ?
(fyi: I do not have answers to these so I am genuinely seeking the answers from you)

How do you know Tulsi Saheb Ji Maharaj were the guru of family members of Soami Ji Maharaj ?

How do you know Maharaj Girdhari Saheb were officially appointed by Tulsi Saheb Ji Maharaj

Who was Tulsi Saheb's Master and how do you know Tulsi Saheb's Master did appoint HIM as the successor ?

It will be of great help for everyone if you can provide the answers of these questions.

Also, in our last conversation we discussed that let's all of us spend a few hours in meditation (or something which brings you happiness).
I want to know how many hours you meditate daily ? Or do you even meditate at all ? If yes, till where you have reached ? Can you share your inner experiences with us ?

If you do not meditate then are you seeking a path to start your meditation ?

If you are not at all seeking / exploring the path, what are you trying to achieve by proving all these things ?

"With this reply of yours, you cannot then condemn this gurmeet Rahim
because his followers claim their own experience too."

You are mistaking the testimony of others with one's own experience, and conflating this with a court verdict.

A court verdict and named witnesses' testimony, where the witnesses underwent trial and cross examination, has greater validity than old lineages, where the participants and the writers are no longer here to undergo examination. We can't determine what was deleted or added to the original, if there ever was an original.

And as far as the efficacy in a Guru for your own life, that cannot rest with someone else's testimony.

You are confused. I understand.

Trust your own sentiment, but don't go so far as to claim it is a universal truth, because you are not omniscient. And it follows, if you understand you are not omniscient, that you avoid further condemning as delusional those who disagree with you.

For example, I have provided evidence in spiritual literature down through the ages about the Audible Spirit.

But that is not proof of the spirit. It is evidence those authors experienced something similar, which they heard as ecstatic music, which they claim is connected to God, and which they write both made and sustains the creation.

Could just by something built into human physiology. And some metaphor, and poetry. But the fact that these reports come from independent sources separated by thousands of years gives anecdotal support that they underwent a similar transcendent experience.

Evidence for that experience is there. Not evidence for "God", by any human definition. Not evidence for soul. Just evidence of this very similar transcendent personal, inner experience.

Conclusive proof, at least personally conclusive, can only be when you witness the same things, under your control. Then you will know that it isn't imagination or delusion, but an actual internal experience. And then you can determine for yourself greater detail about it. And that is about as far as you can go, without mounting a study on the particular form of meditation and its physiological and psychological effects.

The testimony of others is only called "the testimony of others" only by you.

To THEM - it is their experience and their proof and very real.

In the same way - your experience is called by them "the testimony of others" and holds no value.

Each one trusts only their own experience and it appears real and valid.

however, they all miss the point

that all experience is fallable. Just because I have seen inside, does not mean it is true. I can still be deluded.

Just because I am CONVINCED, does not mean it is the truth.
It just means I am convinced.

and something very strange happens once you believe
you collect all evidence to prove you are right
and dismiss all evidence against your position.
That is what I call delusional.
I don't need to have followed that path or met that guru to say the followers
are delusional. They are delusional because they believe without real evidence.

Personal belief is not evidence. it just means that you are convinced.
Just as below the people are convinced 100% that they are Jesus

I gave the example before about the man who claims to be jesus

he believes he really is Jesus - it is his experience - but it is not true.

when accused that it is a cult he says (see last 20 secs of the above video)
he says "If it is a cult - it is best cult - because it is the truth"

only thing he died unexpectedly - so it's too late to follow him now.
if you snooze, you lose.

but don't worry - this man has come to the rescue
he claims to be the son of God. No shortage of gurus.
Just as in sant mat - one master dies and ten claim successorship
Why? because it's good business.

Let me share a little secret here (if you promise to keep it a secret)
It always appears to EVERY PERSON - that MY TRUTH is THE TRUTH
and everyone else (poor bastards) is deluded.

I admit that I too hold this same position
that my truth (namely that there is no true guru or master) is
THE TRUTH and everyone else is deluded.

Could I be wrong? and there is a real master out there?
or a real jesus come back?
yeah - sure I could, but it's not likely
just as pigs could fly - but it's not likely
just as unicorns could exist - but it's not likely
just as there could really be a God - but it's not likely
just as Spencer could be right - but it's not likely
just as the Babani story could be made up - but it's not likely
just as Gurinder could be a real master - but it's not likely

Now I'll share a little secret with you, too. No human being will ever know a truth that isn't limited to a personal truth. All the data in the world is just history, and while you might think history, at least, cannot be refuted, it's gone. To believe it you must have faith in a community of people you think deal in truth, maybe scientists. But they are also quite fallible. Living in a world of notions, picking and choosing what to believe. It's really a toy shop for the mind. And no toy is more valuable than any other. All thoughts are inventions.

And here is a second secret. No new idea had any history to defend it. It had to be shepherded into reality by something you would call delusional, vision.

Even the phone you read this on, and the laptop you type on. Started as a delusion someone believed in.

“all the Masters unemployable or useless?”
Ha ha, Hear, hear
No it makes their life harder
because disciples will want to be served this way 24/7
so more Masters will be at "work" ;-)
I mean it

….HAZUR MAHARAJ CHARAN SINGH could only produce One True Master during after reigning for FOUR DECADES & BABJI DON GURINDER SINGH DHILLON even after reigning nearly THREE DECADES has not been able to produce not even a single MASTER.
….So, the question is from where will be the supply of these Masters? Is the Lord going to send them directly?

"""" THREE DECADES has not been able to produce not even a single MASTER.
….So, the question is from where will be the supply of these Masters? Is the Lord going to send them directly? """"

Hééé Juan
That s a lot of hypothesis

How would we know that Charan had only One ?

Why would God need a Satch Khand Level person for such job

HE can make any man-mukh in a Super Saint in a Second

He just takes care of all with a tiny bit of symphaty for HIM and beyond
No Path was ever more glorious
The target Soul just falls in Love and is "bewitched" - - therefore the farizeers can't understand