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Well it's entertaining to read all of your posts, everybody, because it's obvious that you all are very intelligent and have strong opinions on this matter.

If I may say so LongIslander, I must agree with some of the other posters that the internet is arguably wide open. There is little or no real security on the internet. Not to mention that by agreeing with the Terms Of Service here, we are giving the operators and or owners of this site absolute rights to anything we post.

If you want to know how insecure the internet is, just go to the Microsoft Knowledge Base and look at the THOUSANDS of KNOWN security holes in Microsoft products alone. This does not count non-Microsoft product security holes or undocumented security holes. You just have to hope no one is interested in your individual information.

Also, if you use wireless internet, anyone can grab what you type out of the air; it's been all over the news and is nothing new. There are hack programs that will unlock your wireless security (if you even have it enabled) in less than 5 seconds. Not unlike the programs people use to unlock and copy DVDs. It's just a fact of life and it's real.

Don't type anything on the internet, e mail or instant message you don't want to be public knowledge.

Maybe off topic but I thought I'd put my (4 year college) two cents in. Peace,Sam

Well it's entertaining to read all of your posts, everybody, because it's obvious that you all are very intelligent and have strong opinions on this matter.

If I may say so LongIslander, I must agree with some of the other posters that the internet is arguably wide open. There is little or no real security on the internet. Not to mention that by agreeing with the Terms Of Service here, we are giving the operators and or owners of this site absolute rights to anything we post.

If you want to know how insecure the internet is, just go to the Microsoft Knowledge Base and look at the THOUSANDS of KNOWN security holes in Microsoft products alone. This does not count non-Microsoft product security holes or undocumented security holes. You just have to hope no one is interested in your individual information.

Also, if you use wireless internet, anyone can grab what you type out of the air; it's been all over the news and is nothing new. There are hack programs that will unlock your wireless security (if you even have it enabled) in less than 5 seconds. Not unlike the programs people use to unlock and copy DVDs. It's just a fact of life and it's real.

Don't type anything on the internet, e mail or instant message you don't want to be public knowledge.

Maybe off topic but I thought I'd put my (4 year college) two cents in. Peace,Sam

Thank you!

I'm sorry, but my idea of Internets security doesn't have "I can only assume that people aren't googling what the site I post on is about" at its foundation.

Philly, I have resolved my issues with you. I know what I think of you, you know what I think of you, and that's that.

I really have no problems with you except perhaps for the vile PM you sent me a month ago... but I've moved past that with the help of my therapist.

Look...I understand your concerns. I was in your situation for a DECADE. I know the deal. All I'm saying is be more careful. I'm not sure why you take such offense at that. I'm trying to be helpful, but instead all I get is a huge grudge from you for pointing this out.

Sam, Benj, Philly, Longislander and others... this thread is moving inexorably in the direction of the "Internet is wide open" way again. That statement is not news to me. Or to anyone really, I would think. (Eight years of university education and counting, counting... le sigh.) There are other threads devoted more or less exclusively to that issue/dispute/whatever it is. Others could be started but to little purpose I hazard.

I started this thread out of a different concern. I've more or less had my say on the matter; but if others want to continue to post and comment I'd appreciate it if you'd stick to what I did start this thread for rather than saying, again, "The Internet is wide open" etc.

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Her finely-touched spirit had still its fine issues, though they were not widely visible. Her full nature, like that river of which Cyrus broke the strength, spent itself in channels which had no great name on the earth. But the effect of her being on those around her was incalculably diffusive: for the growing good of the world is partly dependent on unhistoric acts; and that things are not so ill with you and me as they might have been, is half owing to the number who lived faithfully a hidden life, and rest in unvisited tombs.

This issue of disclosure, this issue of what should/should not be said on an internet forum, this issue of the the power of disclosure can not and should never be discussed in the tone that seems to be developing here.

The discussion I'm seeing isn't so much about the "reality" individuals may face, the struggles they have experienced, the forward looking view that there will be many more that will hopefully follow, the discussion seems to have dissolved into ego driven positions with lack of any sort of environment that welcomes open and honest expression and dialogue.

LongIslander, I empathize with the struggle you and many more of us are facing. The fact that you have stepped to the forefront to express your feeling and fears, therein representing the many other silent voices who do not have the chance to do so, is a testament to your character.

No problem, Lydgate; I consider all of you my friends. I know we will not always see things the same way, so I will respectfully stop posting to this thread. I do, by the way, agree with your original posting. Peace,Sam

I have done all I can since this happened to lessen the possibility of being found here, since this CSI thing. I'll admit, you did say some understanding things in other threads/posts. But this last one was helpful to no one, and this thread is turning into Jr High gym class.

Look, all I can say is if Long Islander wants a forum that is completely safe we'd have to reformat the board somehow, to where certain sections of the board are "closed" to outside google searches. I think that this can be done. I belong to a very "democratic" web board of freaks that were disaffected with the moderator antics on macaddict.com, and began their own board. There are certain section that registered members must separately subscribe to that somehow are not searchable to Google, etc. where we discuss NSFW stuff and P2P subjects.

I'm somewhat cyber, but I do not know the intricacies of how this is done. I just know that it's somewhat capable of being done.

Sam, Benj, Philly, Longislander and others... this thread is moving inexorably in the direction of the "Internet is wide open" way again. That statement is not news to me. Or to anyone really, I would think. (Eight years of university education and counting, counting... le sigh.) There are other threads devoted more or less exclusively to that issue/dispute/whatever it is. Others could be started but to little purpose I hazard.

I started this thread out of a different concern. I've more or less had my say on the matter; but if others want to continue to post and comment I'd appreciate it if you'd stick to what I did start this thread for rather than saying, again, "The Internet is wide open" etc.

I see your posting as a debate over the rights of ownership affected by a mouse click, rights that i *think* you are trying to change somehow. You complain over your perception that others are not concerned enough over an issue about which you feel passionate. Others feel you are overly idealistic. Many opinions keep getting inserted having to do with the CSI forum, out of which this whole thing started anyway. However, it is highly unlikely that this website will make the changes you want without consulting a lawyer... and however well intentioned your ideals are, the fact is that the lawyers who draw up these documents are obliged to advise their clients as to what their best interest is. It is unlikely that a lawyer would agree that implementing your position is in the best interest of poz.com.

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Floating through the void in the caress of two giant pink lobsters named Esmerelda and Keith.

It was an immature PM from you which I deleted, in which you objected my suggestion of visiting East Hampton over Fire Island... but it was the tone of language that you used that was so incredibly offensive... condescending even.

Even if I had retained the PM I would not post it on the board as that is Internet 101 and against the rules, to post a private message in the public area. Kind of like posting personal pictures in places where you wish for the world not to see them.

In my mind the Internet's being wide open -- and yes, my posts being accessible to anyone who chooses to read them -- is pretty different from surrendering my rights to my posts to some legal entity which could use them in any way, at any time in the future etc etc &c. I thought I'd written tedious reams about this recently.

The distinction is real enough to me.

And Sam, I know we're agreed on some fundamental things. I never meant to suggest you or anyone should stop posting here! Please continue to do so, of course, if you feel like it.

And while I was posting I also read RAB's response. Phewph, thank you for that point about tone.

Jay

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Her finely-touched spirit had still its fine issues, though they were not widely visible. Her full nature, like that river of which Cyrus broke the strength, spent itself in channels which had no great name on the earth. But the effect of her being on those around her was incalculably diffusive: for the growing good of the world is partly dependent on unhistoric acts; and that things are not so ill with you and me as they might have been, is half owing to the number who lived faithfully a hidden life, and rest in unvisited tombs.

I see your posting as a debate over the rights of ownership affected by a mouse click, rights that i *think* you are trying to change somehow. You complain over your perception that others are not concerned enough over an issue about which you feel passionate. Others feel you are overly idealistic. Many opinions keep getting inserted having to do with the CSI forum, out of which this whole thing started anyway. However, it is highly unlikely that this website will make the changes you want without consulting a lawyer... and however well intentioned your ideals are, the fact is that the lawyers who draw up these documents are obliged to advise their clients as to what their best interest is. It is unlikely that a lawyer would agree that implementing your position is in the best interest of poz.com.

Exactly, and furthermore, we all did agree to this set of circumstances when we became members.

I don't understand it because it seems like certain people are trying to retroactively get rights back that they agreed they didn't have when they signed up for this site in the first place.

In my mind the Internet's being wide open -- and yes, my posts being accessible to anyone who chooses to read them -- is pretty different from surrendering my rights to my posts to some legal entity which could use them in any way, at any time in the future etc etc &c. I thought I'd written tedious reams about this recently.

The distinction is real enough to me.

And Sam, I know we're agreed on some fundamental things. I never meant to suggest you or anyone should stop posting here! Please continue to do so, of course, if you feel like it.

And while I was posting I also read RAB's response. Phewph, thank you for that point about tone.

Jay

And my point is, what's to stop anyone from coming in and using anyone's post for whatever purposes they desire?

For the record - this is what you have to agree to to get entry to posting:

"Terms of Membership

Welcome to the AIDSmeds.com Forums!

By registering, you agree to abide by our website's "Terms of Use" and by the following Terms of Membership for these forums:this sentence was just added recently by Peter.

When you register, you will need to choose a unique user name, or "handle." You will need to provide a working email address, so that if your forget your password, you can request an automated email reminder. You can choose to make your email address hidden or visible to others using a setting in your online profile.

Only one user name is permitted per member. The user name you select upon registering for the Forums should be the user name you remain with throughout your participation in the Forums. Maintaining more than one user name is a violation of these Terms of Membership and is subject to automatic removal from the Forums, locking of the multiple accounts (including the original account), and banning to prevent future registration.

Messages posted to the AIDSmeds.com Forums must not contain marketing information, either from a pharmaceutical company; a healthcare provider (i.e., seeking to provide services to the HIV community); or the manufacturer or distributor of a complementary, alternative, herbal, traditional, and/or surgical treatment approach.

The forums are not to be used for research recruitment purposes, unless cleared through the forums administrator by contacting editors@aidsmeds.com.

The premise of the AIDSmeds.com Forums, along with its parent site (AIDSmeds.com), is that HIV is the cause of AIDS. Individuals hoping to use the AIDSmeds.com Forums to disseminate ďdenialistĒ or ďdissidentĒ information will be automatically banned from the Forums.

The AIDSmeds.com Forums have been designed for HIV-positive people; their caregivers, friends, family, and loved ones; and people who fear they may have been exposed to the virus and require support while testing -- for educational purposes only. Any information received through the AIDSmeds.com Forums is intended to complement, not supplement, communication with a certified healthcare provider. No member or administrator of the Forums is certified to diagnose or treat a health problem or disease via AIDSmeds.com. All information found in the AIDSmeds.com Forums should be discussed with a healthcare provider.

These Forums reserves the right to edit or delete any message for any reason whatsoever, at our sole discretion.

Thanks for joining the AIDSmeds.com Forums."

It's only after joining and taking the time (if you do) to read the "Terms of Use" that you learn what additional rules apply.

« Last Edit: February 19, 2007, 10:22:32 PM by Tucsonwoody »

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And I wished for guidance, and I wished for peaceI could see the lightning; somewhere in the eastAnd I wished for affection, and I wished for calmAs I lay there - Nervous in the light of dawn

However, it is highly unlikely that this website will make the changes you want without consulting a lawyer... and however well intentioned your ideals are, the fact is that the lawyers who draw up these documents are obliged to advise their clients as to what their best interest is. It is unlikely that a lawyer would agree that implementing your position is in the best interest of poz.com.

Agreed. Which is what I indirectly said to Peter in my response. "That's that then." (The best interests of the lawyers' clients, POZ.com/S+S, and the best interests of the users of this service might never be congruent; let's at least hope they're never antagonistic, though color me a bit skeptical on this.) And, so, that further discussion is possibly fruitless. Thanks, anway, for calling me well-intentioned and idealistic or even over-idealistic.

Just having read Benj's response. True, up to a point. But to me, finnicky though this may sound, there's a difference betwen a random individual (or individuals) quoting or using my post, having come upon it by chance or through a search, and having those posts be outright property of an entity which can market them. More to be said, of course, about the sort of protection granting copyright back confers, but enough's been said already; and I'd rather have lawyers weigh in first (if they do at all).

And now, having read Tucson's response, I come back to the point that many posters weren't even aware of the TOS as they were of the TOA. That's different now I suppose. Quote from TW: "It's only after joining and taking the time (if you do) to read the "Terms of Use" that you learn what additional rules apply." So a *click* of agreement once but not a *click* twice? (A poll on this?) Is there an exact date when they (the TOS) were framed and put on the new site? Or should we -- me and everyone else --just let this go? (See my response to puck above.)

Jay

« Last Edit: February 19, 2007, 10:40:03 PM by lydgate »

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Her finely-touched spirit had still its fine issues, though they were not widely visible. Her full nature, like that river of which Cyrus broke the strength, spent itself in channels which had no great name on the earth. But the effect of her being on those around her was incalculably diffusive: for the growing good of the world is partly dependent on unhistoric acts; and that things are not so ill with you and me as they might have been, is half owing to the number who lived faithfully a hidden life, and rest in unvisited tombs.

Just having read Benj's response. True, up to a point. But to me, finnicky though this may sound, there's a difference betwen a random individual (or individuals) quoting or using my post, having come upon it by chance or through a search, and having those posts be outright property of an entity which can market them. More to be said, of course, about the sort of protection granting copyright back confers, but enough's been said already; and I'd rather have lawyers weigh in first (if they do at all).

As I said, "tl;dr" and now ignorance are no excuse, in my opinion.

The link to the Terms of Membership on the bottom of every page, and it's no secret that this site has additional rules in here (for example, there's nothing in the TOM about only poz people being able to post in certain forums).

And since we're using their servers, I'd say they do have a right to it. A right which we never had and agreed we didn't have (whether we knew it or not) from the first post anyone puts in this forum.

AIDSmeds.com Terms & Conditions 1. ACCEPTANCE OF TERMS AND CONDITIONS OF SERVICE

Welcome to AIDSmeds.com. CDM Publishing, LLC, D.B.A. as Smart + Strong and AIDSmeds ("Smart + Strong" or "AIDSmeds") provides the Service to you ("you" or the "User"), subject to the following terms and conditions, as they may be amended from time to time (the "Ts and Cs"). Smart + Strong may amend or modify the Ts and Cs without notice, effective immediately, by posting the Ts and Cs on the AIDSmeds.com Web site or by otherwise notifying the User of the Ts and Cs. Smart + Strong reserves the right to discontinue, on a temporary or permanent basis, the Service (in whole or in part) without notice and without liability to the User. If the User uses the Service after Smart + Strong posts changes to the Ts and Cs, the User accepts the changed Ts and Cs.

By registering for or using the Service the User agrees to the Ts and Cs. Smart + Strong may offer certain services that will be governed by different or additional terms and conditions. All such additional terms and conditions are hereby incorporated by reference into the Ts and Cs.

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Smart + Strong offers AIDSmeds Community Forums, online bulletin boards, and may offer other services, such as chat rooms, on its AIDSmeds.com Web site (the "Service") for use only under a nonexclusive, nontransferable, and nonassignable license subject to the Ts and Cs. The User does not have the right to copy, sell, or otherwise exploit for any commercial purpose the Service (in whole or in part), access to the Service or use of the Service. Any service added to the Service shall be governed by the Ts and Cs, unless Smart + Strong expressly provides that such service shall be governed by different terms and conditions.

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Smart + Strong DOES N0T MAKE ANY WARRANTY AS TO THE RESULTS THAT MAY BE OBTAINED FROM USE OF AIDSMEDS.COM OR ITS CONTENT OR AS TO THE ACCURACY OR RELIABILITY OF ANY INFORMATION OBTAINED THROUGH USE OF AIDSMEDS.COM.

THE USER UNDERSTANDS AND AGREES THAT ANY CONTENT AND/OR DATA DOWNLOADED OR OTHERWISE OBTAINED THROUGH THE USE OF THE SERVICE OR AIDSMEDS.COM IS AT THE USER'S OWN DISCRETION AND RISK AND THAT THE USER WILL BE SOLELY RESPONSIBLE FOR ANY DAMAGE TO THE USER'S COMPUTER SYSTEM OR LOSS OF DATA THAT RESULTS FROM THE DOWNLOAD OF SUCH CONTENT AND/OR DATA.

Smart + Strong EXPRESSLY DISCLAIMS ALL WARRANTIES, WHETHER EXPRESS OR IMPLIED, INCLUDING, WITHOUT LIMITATION, THE IMPLIED WARRANTIES OF MERCHANTABILITY, FITNESS FOR A PARTICULAR PURPOSE AND NONINFRINGEMENT.

THE ABOVE EXCLUSIONS OF WARRANTIES MAY NOT APPLY TO THE USER IN JURISDICTIONS THAT DO NOT PERMIT SUCH EXCLUSIONS.

14. LIMITATION OF LIABILITY

Smart + Strong SHALL NOT BE LIABLE FOR ANY DIRECT, INDIRECT, INCIDENTAL, PUNITIVE, EXEMPLARY, SPECIAL OR CONSEQUENTIAL DAMAGES OF WHATEVER KIND AND HOWEVER CAUSED, INCLUDING, WITHOUT LIMITATION, PERSONAL INJURY OR DEATH, EVEN IF Smart + Strong KNEW OR SHOULD HAVE KNOWN OF THE POSSIBILITY OF SUCH DAMAGES, RESULTING FROM THE USE OR THE INABILITY TO USE THE SERVICE, AIDSMEDS.COM OR THE CONTENT POSTED OR OTHERWISE MADE AVAILABLE THEREON OR ANY INTERACTION BETWEEN USERS, WHETHER ONLINE OR OFFLINE, ERRORS, OMISSIONS, INTERRUPTIONS, DELETIONS, DEFECTS, INTERNET OR OTHER DELAYS, COMMUNICATION-LINE FAILURES, THEFTS, DESTRUCTION, OR UNAUTHORIZED ACCESS TO OR ALTERATION OF USER OR MEMBER COMMUNICATIONS, OR THE INTERRUPTION, SUSPENSION OR TERMINATION OF THE SERVICE OR THE AIDSMEDS.COM WEB SITE, OR THE PROCUREMENT OF SUBSTITUTE GOODS OR SERVICES, OR ANY PRODUCTS OR SERVICES PURCHASED OR OBTAINED OR INFORMATION RECEIVED OR TRANSACTIONS ENTERED INTO THROUGH THE SERVICE OR THE AIDSMEDS.COM WEB SITE.

THE ABOVE EXCLUSIONS OR LIMITATIONS OF LIABILITY MAY NOT APPLY TO THE USER IN JURISDICTIONS THAT DO NOT PERMIT SUCH EXCLUSIONS OR LIMITATIONS.

15. GENERAL

The Ts and Cs shall be governed by the internal laws of the State of New York applicable to agreements made and to be fully performed therein, without giving effect to conflict of laws principles thereof. The User and Smart + Strong shall submit to the personal and exclusive jurisdiction of the courts located within the county of New York, State of New York.

If any provision of the Ts and Cs is held by a court of competent jurisdiction to be invalid or unenforceable, that provision shall be enforced to the maximum extent permissible and the remaining provisions of the Ts and Cs shall remain in full force and effect.

The paragraph headings are for convenience only and shall have no effect upon the meaning of the paragraph.

Actually not. It can be argued in court that while S. and S. states: 'Smart + Strong may amend or modify the Ts and Cs without notice, effective immediately, by posting the Ts and Cs on the AIDSmeds.com Web site or by otherwise notifying the User of the Ts and Cs' that may not be sufficient notice under New York State or federal law, anymore than, to use my earlier example, a credit card company could change the terms and conditions without giving a card holder sufficient notification, allowing that holder to opt out. Yes, we may agree to Terms of Use, but when such Terms of Use are in violation with case law, they are moot. I suspect that multiple boiler plate was overlaid, the case going from 'The User' to 'you,' and so inconsistent. In some instances, S. and S. indemnifies itself. In others, it posts what might be deemed rules without taking the responsibility for enforcing the 'rules' or otherwise indicating how such 'rules' will be enforced. Either you draft it so that you (S. and S.) have nothing to do with what goes on (by indemnification) or you insist that The User will follow your regulations. Win

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Winthrop Smith has published three collections of poetry: Ghetto: From The First Five; The Weigh-In: Collected Poems; Skin Check: New York Poems. The last was published in December 2006. He has a work-in-progress underway titled Starting Positions.

Poet, this is not a credit card company, that uses secured sites. This is a forum that is unsecured. If you use IE to browse this forum it's not hard to tell that this forum is not secure. Do you see a padlock in the bottom right had corner telling you that you are on a secure website? No. No one would have a leagal stance. Yes anyone can take anyone about anything to court if they have the money for frivolous lawsuits. AidsMeds and S&S make it very clear in their policies.