I've pretty much stayed out of this conversation because talking to person who can only preach is never fun.

Am I being preachy because I believe in GOD or because I am sharing my faith in Jesus Christ...?

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But now you're feeling are hurt, even though you haven't displayed a bit of sympathy for the dozen or so people who have tried to show you why they disagree with religion.

I have to disagree with you here.

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To you, everything is an attack on your god.You don't see that we don't attack gods (we can't, they don't exist), we attack beliefs. And since most of us self-identify as atheists, and we're all ganged up here on this site, for you to come here as a christian and expect anything other than arguments is naive beyond belief. Except you're a christian, so thinking things through is probably kind of foreign to you. You've been told what to believe, you are doing your duty, and non-followers perplex you. How else could you react?

I am doing this because I "want" to do this. See, you just insulted me. Quick jab there. LOL

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I asked you pages ago if you thought this was Disneyland because you seemed astonished that we weren't spiritual. Not that there aren't any spiritual atheists, but they are sort of rare. And most of us are not.

I saw your post and I chuckled.

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Think about the muslim god, or hindu gods. Do you believe in them? And how do you feel about not believing in them?

Do I personally feel that we are worshiping the same GOD...? No

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Well, that's exactly how we feel about not believing in your god.

I do not feel they are worshiping GOD w/ religion. And that goes for all religions.

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And we are quite unhappy with the harm done to this planet and it's various cultures by such religions.

So is Jesus Christ. IMO

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People claiming to be christian are burning and otherwise killing children in Africa today because of accusations that those kids are witches. Hindu's maintain the oppressive caste system, even though it is illegal to do so, for religious reasons. Catholic priests are taking advantage of their positions of power and molesting boys. Muslims find it abhorrent that a woman would try to fight off a rapist and if she happens to kill him while she is being raped, she gets stoned to death. Literally. All because of religious beliefs.

And I think it is just as sick and horrendous. But I do not feel that Jesus came to give people religion but came to set you free from it.

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You think the other religions are wrong, but you are sure the one you've chosen is correct. You obviously have the right to do that, but many like you not only want that right, but they want also to dictate to me and to others such as yourself that we all follow their religious views, and they don't want to take no for an answer.

Religion is not faith and faith is not religion. I think of religion as Jesus Christ describes it not how the world does. Although I understand what you mean./

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Rick Santorum is running for president right now in a catholic state of mind, and he thinks all non-catholics, religious or not, are in league with the devil. Now if you're a catholic, no biggie, But if you're not, then the wrong religion is trying to take over the US and you're in almost as much trouble as we atheists are.

I don't vote. I have nothing to do with politics.

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Each person born on this planet has different experiences. Many get inculcated into the religion of their region. Others have the luxury of choosing. Some pick the religion of their parents, others choose different denominations or even entirely different religions. And some of us choose not to believe at all. Each of us thinks we are right, that we have chosen wisely and that we are best served by our individual choices. Obviously not all of us are right about whether or not there is a god, because no matter what you or I believe, either there is one (or more) or there isn't. You may be very adamant about believing that there is, but I assure you I am at least as adamant that there is not.

I respect your decision.

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I see religions as myths. The same type of myth that I was taught about in grade school. The myths of Greek and Roman gods were a common thing to teach in the 50's, and the only problem with that is that when I looked at christianity, I could see plainly that it was a myth as well. As were the stories of all the other religions.

Even Jesus Christ...?

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The Romans believed in their gods. The Greeks in theirs. And you in yours. And we atheists, here at an atheist site, dismiss each and every one. Right now, we especially reject yours, because you are trying to ram your version down our throats with the exact same zealotry that previous believers, be they some variation on the christian theme, or muslims, or mormon or whatever, have tried to do before.

I am sharing my faith with you, not forcing religion on you.

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You are in shock about our attitudes and don't seem to realize that we have heard all this before, and we all know we'll here it again. We have no reason to convert just because we feel sorry for you, and we have no reason to think what you are aging is true, no matter how convinced you are that it is.

No, I responded after several uncalled for criticisms were posted.

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We are busy trying to stave off the many negative effects of religion on civilization. You want to immerse us in the very beliefs we find harmful. Of course we're going to disagree.

As I have posted before in this very thread. It is OK to disagree with me.

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You can either accept that there is a huge frickin' divide between your view of the universe and ours, or you can act all hurt and stuff. Accepting the divide and having a discussion with us, one that is somewhat devoid of scripture quotes, might be sort of fun. One that has you preaching, and us saying stop it, and you feeling all hurt is useless.

Are you sure you have read this thread entirely...?

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You've been around since the first page of this thread, and I have been astounded that the others have treated with minimal hostility. You are hurt, but only because you came up with high expectations about how we would react to your god stories. It is your expectations that have caused your disappointment more than our lack of a positive response to your version of the god story. Take some responsibility for that and try again, with the understanding that we might be able to teach each other a thing or two about why we hold specific beliefs. Do that with no expectation that you're going to sway even one person in your direction and perhaps all of us can learn. And you can be an ambassador for your beliefs. Right now you sound more like a blind follower, and that never impresses us.

I repeat. I am not trying to convert you. I am sharing my faith with you. There is a difference.

I think the most important question, which has been raised time and again, is that of the possibility of your being mistaken in your beliefs.

I sorry. I understand why you feel this way. There are certain things that are not within my ability to control. I cannot control the actions of other people. Nor can I control nature. I can't hear the thoughts of another person nor can they hear mine.

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Even if your feelings of communion with god are so strong that it's hard for you to imagine that you might be deluded or mistaken, it just seems important to be able to look at reality clearly and critically, and recognize that for every reason you feel you have that compels you to believe, there are perfectly good explanations for all of them which do not necessitate the existence of a deity.

If GOD were to get your attention in some way you were not used to knowing or even possible, you'd think you were nuts.... right...?Would the thought ever cross your mind...? I am only asking because I think you assume that if a person believes to have been made known of GODS presence, isn't aware of the possibility or hasn't thought that.

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As has been pointed out to you many times, the mind is capable of all sorts of trickery and delusion, and also, those of other faiths experience exactly the same types of feelings in response to their chosen deities.

Sure I'm aware of that. You want to know what makes this any different...? I can't prove that to you. All I can say is that "I" am very grateful to know that I am loved. I don't mean this pridefully.

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If you can look at these facts with an open mind, and still feel that you must follow your heart, then fine. I don't think most of us would insist on robbing you of it, but at least have the intellectual honesty to admit that while you choose to believe, there's no way for you to absolutely know it's not a trick of the mind.

I will follow my heart. Yes, I am fully aware of the possibility but I am relying on faith and I don't want to go back. And what has been shown me, I know that GOD loves me and cares. He really cares.

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Most atheists are willing to concede that there is no way to know, 100%, that no deity of any description exists. No good enough evidence has ever surfaced to make it a possibility worth considering, but most would leave themselves open to changing their minds if any actual evidence ever DID come to light.

I believe that you will get it one way or another. It is just a matter of when. I think GOD does it the way He does for a purpose. I would rather trust in His judgement on a matter such as this than demand it our way.

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All we really ask is the same concession from theists...The admission that you cannot KNOW that what seems so strong in your mind is hard fact.

Spiritual evidence for me is not hard fact to you. It's on a more personal level.

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This, again, seems one of those really vague non-answers. I can accept that you are not necessarily trying to convert us, but what of this God you worship? If he is real, does he not care? What DOES he want? I get that you think it is not "religion" as in some formalized ritual, but rather the warm fuzzies, but what is your view of what God wants from us? Are we damned, in your understanding, if we do not follow Jesus? We really have no clear idea of what it is that you really believe, and being a bit more explicit in your answers would help us get a handle on where you are coming from at least.

I couldn't even attempt to explain this any better than Jesus Christ already did.

He loves you.

And I know you want something.... anything that points to His existence. Just one tiny morsel to latch onto.

To be honest, I can live with a little less love here, but I would appreciate it if he gives a bit of loving to the child who is being abused or starving.

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And I know you want something.... anything that points to His existence. Just one tiny morsel to latch onto.

True, the desire to seek what is real is always there. At this juncture even a tiny morsel would be a welcome start. And please dont pitch the "accept/believe him, then you will understand" logic. The last time I fell for it, I ended up with Windows Vista.

So... is this really entertaining to you guys...? To set out and destroy the hope and faith of others...? Is it because the problem lies within yourselves...? So you get together and mock and ridicule the people of faith. Does it make you feel good or feel like more of a man or woman...? Do you feel empowered...?

I have been exposed to the same treatment as most of you have but you don't hear me slandering them. It actually saddens me at times and I still love them with all of my heart as my friends. I have treated every single one of you with respect, even though you attack my faith and curse My GOD. I have extended my hand out to you in faith but you refuse to listen with your heart.What is it that I did that you feel you have to hurt me with your words...?

At least you understand that it is not Christ that I persecute -- it is you. But not actually persecute- more like chastise. Does not your own God's word say that he chastiseth those whom He loves?

Little Christian Soldier how ill prepared you are.You put on the Fool Amore of God.How foolish you look with ILY painted on your forehead.The belt of truth you wear so proudly, would not hold up big boy pants, and on the back is written "kick me."The bib of ritcheous indignation in place with the words "I am rubber you are glue" written in crayon will serve you up to your enemies.How so not ready you are with your little feet fitted with the Gospel of Peas.In addition to this, your pretend shield of faith which cannot stop a real arrow, endangers you ...does not protect you.Your paper hat of salvation like a dunce cap on your head makes you stand out and offers you up as an easy target. And that sword- a popsicle stick that long ago lost its flavor. It can not help you in a battle with real men.But go ahead! PRAY IN THE SPIRIT WITH ALL KINDS OF PRAYERS AND REQUESTS! You will not be heard for there is no God.

It is all pretend. Grow up now and go forth to fight the real battles!

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Truthfinder:the birds adapt and change through million of years in order to survive ,is that science, then cats should evolve also wings to better catch the birdsMailbag:On a side note, back in college before my conversion, I actually saw a demon sitting next to me in critical thinking class.

I sorry. I understand why you feel this way. There are certain things that are not within my ability to control. I cannot control the actions of other people. Nor can I control nature. I can't hear the thoughts of another person nor can they hear mine.

You are right. We cannot hear each others' thought. That's where clear, concise language is useful. What you have said here does nothing to address the question of whether you understand that you may be mistaken, only (I think, it's still very vague) that you feel you are not. These are two very different concepts.

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If GOD were to get your attention in some way you were not used to knowing or even possible, you'd think you were nuts.... right...?Would the thought ever cross your mind...? I am only asking because I think you assume that if a person believes to have been made known of GODS presence, isn't aware of the possibility or hasn't thought that.

Again, it's hard to know what you are saying here. It does sound as though you are agreeing that when you first experience something which you will later decide is god's presence, you do go through a stage of chalking it up to being nuts. But your wording is pretty hazy.

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Sure I'm aware of that. You want to know what makes this any different...? I can't prove that to you. All I can say is that "I" am very grateful to know that I am loved. I don't mean this pridefully.

I am aware that this is not something which can be proven. Again, I am not asking you for proof. I am asking whether you understand that no matter how strongly you feel about something which cannot be proven, there always exists some chance that you are wrong.

Put it this way; many people fall into relationships where they feel they are loved, only to find out later that they had been duped. If it is so easy to be conned or mistaken in circumstances where you are dealing with reality - with a living, breathing person you can interact with in a physical way and have actual conversations with, how much easier could it be to be deluded when the entire relationship only takes place in your mind?

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I will follow my heart. Yes, I am fully aware of the possibility but I am relying on faith and I don't want to go back. And what has been shown me, I know that GOD loves me and cares. He really cares.

Okay...this may be an actual answer to the question. To be honest, I missed this part reading through your reply the first time, it was so buried in there. If, as you say, you are fully aware of the possibility, but have simply decided that for you, faith trumps it, I have no major beef with that. As long as you don't present it as undeniable fact but as your perception. There is a difference.

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I believe that you will get it one way or another. It is just a matter of when. I think GOD does it the way He does for a purpose. I would rather trust in His judgement on a matter such as this than demand it our way.

Your belief on this matter doesn't take into account the millions of people who never DO get the requisite proof. Some live and die, completely content in their own "knowledge" that the faith (other than Christanity) is the true path. Others are either never inculcated in religion of any kind and never find the need to seek one out. Others drift away from Christianity, secure in the conviction that they are escaping delusion. Whether you want to believe it or not, not everyone has some sort of epiphany which they presumably just choose to ignore. For many people, it simply doesn't happen. Which more or less boils down to, either your god doesn't care enough to draw those individuals to the fold (effectively damning them), or he doesn't exist.

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I couldn't even attempt to explain this any better than Jesus Christ already did.He loves you.And I know you want something.... anything that points to His existence. Just one tiny morsel to latch onto.Jesus Christ can help you to understand.

Jesus really didn't explain anything. Some people who put the Bible together made an attempt, but it is a vague and contradiction-filled one with leeway enough to read truth into any interpretation which makes you feel good.

And I don't "want" anything. Other than for people to use their minds. I did go through a short period of trying to find meaning in Jesus, but it never "took". I was always too aware of the reality of life vs the fantasy of pulling meaning from what was in my head to begin with and attributing it to god.

I, for one, do not mind having scripture quoted to me. God's word is the only tangible thing that we have to represent Him. And it is His word that proves that He can not be real, or if real, is not worthy of our love. I think that you must, deep down, understand this, and that is why you have avoided His word in this thread.

Or, possibly you are avoiding the word because you are confused as to what being a Christian is all about. You ask your self: Which laws does a True Christian follow? That is understandable.

Anyone that has read the bible knows that is filled with many archaic and cruel laws, such as those that command that homosexuals be put to death ;

You shall not lie with a man, as with a woman: it is abomination. Leviticus 18:22,If a man also lies with a man, as he lies with a woman, both of them have committed an abomination: they shall surely be put to death; their blood shall be upon them. 20:13

or the unbeliever6If your very own brother, or your son or daughter, or the wife you love, or your closest friend secretly entices you, saying, “Let us go and worship other gods” (gods that neither you nor your fathers have known, 7gods of the peoples around you, whether near or far, from one end of the land to the other), 8do not yield to him or listen to him. Show him no pity. Do not spare him or shield him. 9You must certainly put him to death. Your hand must be the first in putting him to death, and then the hands of all the people. 10Stone him to death, because he tried to turn you away from the Lord your God, who brought you out of Egypt, out of the land of slavery. Deut. 13:6-10 So I'm treading on thin ice here. If you are one that believes in the entire bible and that it is to be followed in its entirety, you need to cast the first stone.

or the witchYou shall not allow a witch to live. Exodus 22:18

or one that rebels against their parents20 And they shall say unto the elders of his city, This our son is stubborn and rebellious, he will not obey our voice; he is a glutton, and a drunkard.21 And all the men of his city shall stone him with stones, that he die: so shalt thou put evil away from among you; and all Israel shall hear, and fear. Deut. 21:20-21

When questioned with the issue of not obeying many of the Old Testament laws, modern Christians will speak of the new covenant and say that Jesus fulfilled the law, often referring to Matthew 5:17.

Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfill.

There is disagreement among Christians about the interpretation of this (with supporting scripture for both sides) and as a result many Christians fall on either side of the issue. I can provide plenty of scripture and commentary on this, but you can Google as well as I can. If Jesus abolished the OT Laws, why keep the 10 commandments? If Jesus did not abolish the law, then why not stone the bride who is not a virgin?

Christians are burning their own children as witches in Kenya and stoning adulterers in Somalia and beheading unbelievers in the Middle East. I can provide links to actual videos of this happening right now, if you have the stomach for it.

In America, abortion clinics are bombed, children are beaten or denied medical care by devoted Christians. Why is this? And why do Christians adhere to certain commandments or laws in the bible and not others? Why are not most Christians obedient to the entire word of God and kill the homosexual or stone their disobedient children? The answer lies in their ability to cherry pick scripture and interpret it according to their own preference. The bible is so filled with contradictory statements, this is easy to do.

I tend to agree with those Christians that say the New Testament demands the Laws of the Old Testament be kept. Let’s look at the very words of Jesus himself.

“For truly, I say to you, till heaven and earth pass away, not an iota, not a dot, will pass the law until all is accomplished. Whoever then relaxes one of the least of these commandments and teaches men so, shall be called least in the kingdom of heaven; but he who does them and teaches them shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.” (Matthew 5:18-19)

"It is easier for Heaven and Earth to pass away than for the smallest part of the letter of the law to become invalid." (Luke 16:17)

"Do not think that I have come to abolish the law or the prophets. I have come not to abolish but to fulfill. Amen, I say to you, until heaven and earth pass away, not the smallest part or the smallest part of a letter will pass from the law, until all things have taken place." (Matthew 5:17)

"All scripture is inspired by God and is useful for teaching, for refutation, for correction, and for training in righteousness..." (2 Timothy 3:16)

"Know this first of all, that there is no prophecy of scripture that is a matter of personal interpretation, for no prophecy ever came through human will; but rather human beings moved by the holy Spirit spoke under the influence of God." (2 Peter 20-21)

"Whoever curses father or mother shall die" (Mark 7:10)

“He that curseth father or mother, let him die the death.” (Matthew 15:4-7)

“Did not Moses give you the law, and yet none of you keepeth the law" (John7:19) and “For the law was given by Moses,..." (John 1:17).

“...the scripture cannot be broken.” John 10:35

I agree it is difficult to follow God's laws and rules, as they are obviously not above man's laws. And they are contradictory.

Owning slaves is OK: Leviticus 25:45 “Moreover of the children of the strangers that do sojourn among you, of them shall ye buy … and they shall be your possession… they shall be your bondmen forever.” Genesis 9:25 “And he Cursed be Canaan; a servant of servants shall he be unto his brethren.” Exodus 21:2 & 7 “If thou buy an Hebrew servant, six years he shall serve: and in the seventh he shall go out free for nothing… And if a man sell his daughter to be a maidservant, she shall not go out as the menservants do.” Joel 3:8 “And I will sell your sons and your daughters into the hand of the children of Judah, and they shall sell them to the Sabeans, to a people far off: for the Lord hath spoken it.” Luke 12:47-48 [Jesus speaking] “And that servant, which knew his lord’s will, and prepared not himself, neither did according to his will, shall be beaten with many stripes. But he that knew not, and did commit things worthy of stripes, shall be beaten with few stripes.” Colossians 3:22 “Servants, obey in all things your masters.”

Improvidence is Kewl: Luke 12:3 “Sell that ye have and give alms.” also in Luke 6:30 & 35 “Give to every man that asketh of thee, and of him that taketh away thy goods, ask them not again ... And lend, hoping for nothing again, and your reward shall be great.” Matthew 6:28, 31 & 34.Condemned: I Timothy 5:8 “But if any provide not for his own, and especially for those of his own house, he hath denied the faith, and is worse than an infidel. “ Proverbs 13:22.

Show Good works : Matthew 5:16 “Let your light so shine before men, that they may see your good works.” NOT: Matthew 6:1 , “Take heed that you do not your alms before men, to be seen of them.”

Wearing long hair, not wearing long hair, circumcising or not circumcising, foods we both can and can not eat, taking oaths or not taking oaths, getting married or not getting married, drinking alcohol or not drinking alcohol, keeping the Sabbath or not keeping the Sabbath, making graven images or not making graven images…..the bible is so full of contradicting statements, if you are a good enough cherry-picker, it is easy to believe just about anything and make a case for it.

So you can continue to make excuses for biblegod and create a Christianity that you can follow. Or, you can do the more obvious thing. Abandon the "faith." That is a far more sensible thing to do. You came here for a reason. You said it is NOT to convert anyone to your belief (even though we all know that evangelism is called for by the bible-- Go forth and PREACH THE GOSPEL IS NOT A SUGGESTION).

TIME TO BE HONEST WITH YOUR SELF IF NOT WITH US. Maybe you coming here was a silent plea from your subconscious mind (which can sort these contradictions more clearly) drawing you here to help you de-convert yourself? If so, you have come to the right place.

Truthfinder:the birds adapt and change through million of years in order to survive ,is that science, then cats should evolve also wings to better catch the birdsMailbag:On a side note, back in college before my conversion, I actually saw a demon sitting next to me in critical thinking class.

Am I being preachy because I believe in GOD or because I am sharing my faith in Jesus Christ...?

You are being preachy because every answer you give is either completely unverifiable or is "jesus!" It really is not a discussion or a conversation. That would require a two-way exchange. You see the questions put to you as an opportunity to spout off your beliefs and not as opportunities for you to possibly learn something new from other people. That is the definition of preaching and I find it both presumptuous and arrogant.

I could be wrong, but the mental image I get is of you sitting cross legged in a park, placid, a guru of sorts, where you pontificate to onlookers. No one here is interested in that format. This forum is not a platform for gurus or preachers. It is for conversation and discussion. The other members have put forth a not insignificant effort to talk with you. You should show them the same courtesy and effort.

I find your replies to Parking Places and jynnan tonix to be flippant and a little condescending. this kind of shit:

I couldn't even attempt to explain this any better than Jesus Christ already did.He loves you.And I know you want something.... anything that points to His existence. Just one tiny morsel to latch onto.Jesus Christ can help you to understand.

So you have no idea what spoke ot you or if anything spoke to you. A lot of people claim they hear their various gods and their gods have them kill their children or other people. Please let me know how to tell how is really talking to a god. And please, don’t try to claim that their or your god woldn’t ask such a thing because your very own bible shows this to be untrue.

I can't think of a better answer than what Jesus Christ has already given. (James 10:27)

and that is no answer, just more nonsense from your bible. AGain, show me how I can know how t tell who is really talking to a god. Did any of these people who killed their children because they claim God said to heard this god like you? How can you show me the difference?

You see, ILY, I'm guessing that you are trying to avoid answering since you have no good answer. Your delusions that your god talks to you are exactly the same as the delusions that cause people to kill in their god's name. You have been called on your preaching and your refusal to actually answer a question. Many Christians reach this point since they can't actually defend their religion, but have to keep repeating baseless claims and desperately ignoring discussion points. It shows that your religion is nothing special, just one more flawed human creation. Your god doesn't exist, much less care for you. But I'm sure it feels good to claim that he does. It makes you special and not alone. Unfortunately, that's what many theists think and they have as much evidence as you do. A Muslim is sure is sure that Allah cares for them, but Christians just laugh at that or claim that Muslims are wrong and damned.

I used to sing "Jesus loves the little children" in sunday school and bible school. I then realized that there is no evidence of that at all. Your god and Jesus don't love anything since they don't exist, not even you. I've prayed when I was losing my faith and I got nothing. So your claims that JC will help us is just one more unfufilled promise by a Christian. I'm not impressed by the consistent lies that Christians tell.

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"There is no use in arguing with a man who can multiply anything by the square root of minus 1" - Pirates of Venus, ERB

I see religions as myths. The same type of myth that I was taught about in grade school. The myths of Greek and Roman gods were a common thing to teach in the 50's, and the only problem with that is that when I looked at christianity, I could see plainly that it was a myth as well. As were the stories of all the other religions.

Even Jesus Christ...?

If you have to ask this question, then you are still in the dark despite the efforts of many to enlighten you. Not about your religion, but about yourself.

Most of the people here do not think your jesus existed. Or if there was a guy with that name that got nailed to a cross he was an ordinary person who claimed to be the messiah (as did many other during that time period). An atheist, by definition, does not think that there is a god, so it's pretty hard for him to go around having kids. So that means no jesus.

So, very definitely yes, that means even jesus christ is a myth. And until you can at least show an ability to understand our position on this matter, you will be making no in progress. Your thoughts are a waste of bandwidth if you haven't the slightest idea what an atheist is and how it applies to you. You don't have to agree with us, but until you acknowledge that there are humans on this planet who do not accept either the existence or the teachings of your favorite dude, this can go nowhere.

Theoretically, thoughtful discussions on our differences are possible. And in such a conversation, I would have no trouble acknowledging that you truly believe that jc was real and that he and christianity effect your life in ways that you consider to be positive. Until you can acknowledge and behave as though you know that most of us here do not believe he ever existed, no progress can be made. We'll all be too pissed.

« Last Edit: February 22, 2012, 11:30:02 AM by ParkingPlaces »

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It isn't true that non-existent gods can't do anything. For instance, they were able to make me into an atheist.

This is a good thing. Faith is not condusive to learning or understanding, as I've explained. If you really want to know the truth and cultivate a real undersatnding of the magnificent world we live in, faith if the very first thing that needs to die. It is the very antithesis of truth.

No, the problem lies with people who think that they get to make up whatever stupid/hateful idea they want and get respect for it simply because they believe it. Why is it that you don't stop to consider that maybe it's you that's wrong? Especially since it's an idea that you can't prove. That would seem to indicate very strongly that the problem might just be you, don't you think?

Actually you haven't. You've lied to us. Misrepresented yourself. You've outright ignored very pertinent points that people took time and effort to point out. You have brushed aside the words of others and responded only with copy/paste bible verses. From an intellectual standpoint you have been immensely disrespectful to everyone here. And you still are being disrespectful with this shameful attempt at emotional manipulation rather than giving an honest or thought-out response to anything anyone has said.

I have extended my hand out to you in faith but you refuse to listen with your heart.

That's because what your heart is saying has no evidence. We can say many things with the heart, but withouth evidence they have the same value as a dream or a fantasy. So what you have said is being treated as such. If your god were real, why can you not reach out to us with evidence? Which we would actually respect.

What is it that I did that you feel you have to hurt me with your words...?

Another attempt at blatant emotional manipulation. It's sad. If our words hurt you than that is your issue not ours. All we have done is provide reasoned evidence and arguments against your claims. If you truly had any proof that your god existed, and you really knew it was true as much as you claim, why should our questions hurt and cause you to hide.

Dont' bother trying to play the persecuted Christian card. It's been before, and much better, by many others. It doesn't get you sympathy points when you've been shown no interest in honest discussion from the start.

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"I drank what?!"- Socrates

"Dying for something when you know you'll be resurrected is not a sacrifice.It's a parlour trick."- an aquaintance

Philip of Macedon: (via messenger) If we enter Sparta, we will raze all your buildings and ravage all your women.Spartan Reply: If.

I couldn't even attempt to explain this any better than Jesus Christ already did. He loves you. And I know you want something.... anything that points to His existence. Just one tiny morsel to latch onto. Jesus Christ can help you to understand.

So really, if one really wants to know, the only way to know is of GOD. So if a person does not believe in GOD. Then they could never justifiably observe the situation from all possibilities. Bit of a situation, I know.

I also understand your mindset - evidence first, then belief vs. believe first, then evidence. This seems logical. But it does not seem logical to me to use the same method of understanding when it comes to understanding GOD who is "supposedly" not a created thing and is above all creation.

To Me, it seems profoundly illogical that a deity as powerful as your god doesn't show up on any scientific instrumentation. Even if it existed "outside space and time," there should still be some point of energy imbalance in the universe where your god is making contact with the physical universe in order to communicate with believers and work its miracles.

That sounds like a Tu Quoque to Me. I do not possess "faith" in the sense of believing in things unseen... Unless, of course, I can measure them on an ohmmeter or pick up their traces on infrared-sensitive film.

I have confidence in the scientific method, and in the tools that I use. I have no confidence at all in the ability of mythology -- Yours, Mine or anyone else's -- to come up with a consistent, objective and functional framework for day-to-day life.

I have addressed important ones, I feel. If your asking me to prove GOD exists to you, I can't. And I don't know why you are expecting me to prove this to you.

The "Great Commission" commands you to teach all of those who will listen.. and we are listening. God didn't appear to give his followers a choice in this. (Remember Jonah?)

I am curious why you are so quick to dismiss the question of your baptism. I'm assuming that you've read most, if not all of your bible, and I certainly don't know how you got the idea from it that your communication with the holy spirit is supposed to be non-verbal. Joseph Smith and the Popes had actual communicational exchanges with god, One can quickly peruse the current modern christian literature and find hundreds of christians that talk to and receive clear messages from god, so I find it disturbing that he does not talk to you. That doesn't seem fair if you love him as much as you seem to here. If a few more tries at getting the baptism right so that one could actually talk to god was merely a matter of getting wet again, I don't see how it wouldn't be worth it.

Only because I read ILY's post at work, and didn't reply to it until I got home from work 2½ hours later. By that time, My blood pressure was back at 110/70 and the aching in My clenched jaw had subsided.

Anyone taking bets on whether he will be back? I was finding this thread interesting because so many good questions had been raised, but it seems as though as soon as that happens, everything fizzles back out.

Anyone taking bets on whether he will be back? I was finding this thread interesting because so many good questions had been raised, but it seems as though as soon as that happens, everything fizzles back out.

Let's call it WWGHA's law, as a nod to Godwin's law:The harder the questions become, the more likely it is that the theist will run away.

However, I think ILOVEYOU is just busy right now.

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The truth is absolute. Life forms are specks of specks (...) of specks of dust in the universe.Why settle for normal, when you can be so much more? Why settle for something, when you can have everything?We choose our own gods.

^^^^ Since he's been lurking all day and hasn't posted anything, I'm willing to bet the answer is no.

Maybe he's just thinking. Theists aren't used to having their faith questioned; otherwise they would be atheists.

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The truth is absolute. Life forms are specks of specks (...) of specks of dust in the universe.Why settle for normal, when you can be so much more? Why settle for something, when you can have everything?We choose our own gods.

LOL...I had gone back to add a sentence to my post, and found 3 new replies in the meantime.

My addendum was:

By the way, good speculation on his knowledge of the Bible, Velkyn. For all we know, he COULD be an authority, but, as you say, the liberal, warm fuzziness of his "understanding" of god makes that a bit doubtful.

Are you a devoted, unwavering Christian?If you are a devoted, unwavering Christian, you know that God is real because you have seen him work in your own life. You have also seen God's love work in the lives of many other people, perhaps at your church or in your local community.

Obviously your belief is powerful and very meaningful to you.

Would you like to spread your belief to others so that they can see what you see? If so, we would love to hear from you. Please visit the forum and give us your testimony. Tell us why you believe, and why your belief is important to you.

What is it that makes your belief so strong?How has God worked in your life?Why do you think it is important for others to believe?Are there any miracles or personal experiences that you have seen, either in your life or in the lives of others, that you would like to share?Tell your story so others can witness the way that the Lord moves in your life. Invite other people from your church to join you and share their stories as well. Think of your testimony as a missionary activity. Let your light shine and be a fisher of men by helping others to understand what faith in God really means.Thank you for visiting today -- We look forward to hearing from you.

Seems a bit of a bait and switch to have people come to the forum with such an open invitation only to change the rules and then chastise them for doing EXACTLY what you've invited them to do...imho

Come preach to us and share your faith! Wait, we didn't REALLY mean it, now play by our rules

Seems a bit of a bait and switch to have people come to the forum with such an open invitation only to change the rules and then chastise them for doing EXACTLY what you've invited them to do...imho

If you'd read the rules, you'd see that there are specific areas of the site for everything. "Testimonials" is the one you're looking for. However, "telling your story" is not the same as "preaching".

Preaching:OMG DA LAWD IS SO AWSUM U SHULD CNVERT!!!*insert quotes from whatever religious book you "follow"*

Telling your story:So X happened, I concluded Y and now I'm a Z.

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The truth is absolute. Life forms are specks of specks (...) of specks of dust in the universe.Why settle for normal, when you can be so much more? Why settle for something, when you can have everything?We choose our own gods.

That's not a disparity gone unnoticed by the adiministration. However, the forum has evolved over time, thus, competent administrators have included forum rules that fit the forum as it is now, not as it was 6 years ago. The rules supercede some of the content of the invite.

Usually the "Why do you think" part is never addressed in an acceptable manner. I can tell a storyfrom my experience.

I wanted to buy a 7th Gen console game, three nice choices were there (PS3, XBox and the Wii). A social networking friend of mine has a Wii and he told me the reason why he bought it (more games, cheaper etc and the fact that we can exchange the games too between each other). He also told me the advantages of the other systems and the pros/cons of the Wii in comparison with the other two. I bought the Wii.

The "Why" is very important for most of us. I should know what is being sold!

That's not a disparity gone unnoticed by the adiministration. However, the forum has evolved over time, thus, competent administrators have included forum rules that fit the forum as it is now, not as it was 6 years ago. The rules supercede some of the content of the invite.

Thanks for the clarification. And also, I'm not personally put off by it, per se, just pointing out the disparity. More or less, members here shouldn't be surprised when theists show up here "preaching" because the site itself invites them to do so. Maybe many members here forget that because they've been here for so long, they forget the fact that the site itself encourages theists to come in here sharing their faith.

That's not a disparity gone unnoticed by the adiministration. However, the forum has evolved over time, thus, competent administrators have included forum rules that fit the forum as it is now, not as it was 6 years ago. The rules supercede some of the content of the invite.

Thanks for the clarification. And also, I'm not personally put off by it, per se, just pointing out the disparity. More or less, members here shouldn't be surprised when theists show up here "preaching" because the site itself invites them to do so. Maybe many members here forget that because they've been here for so long, they forget the fact that the site itself encourages theists to come in here sharing their faith.

But you can't join the forum until you've agreed to the rules, which are fairly clear. The theist has the choice to go elsewhere to preach if they read the rules and do not like them.

Hey guys... You have a good day today...? It's the weekend and I hope you all have a great one. I didn't go anywhere. I have only been signing in reading some of the other posts. I would like to apologize if I have offended anyone here. Not about my faith in Jesus Christ but I know sometimes I may come off as a bit arrogant a maybe naive, in which another posted. I reread some things and I can see how that may be possible. You guys have been here a lot longer than I have and this is your forum. If anything... thank you all for sharing a moment of your time with me.