Posted
by
samzenpus
on Wednesday April 23, 2014 @07:03PM
from the hug-a-cop dept.

An anonymous reader writes "A NYPD community outreach campaign designed to show images of citizens with cops turned ugly quickly when a deluge of images depicting police brutality came in. From the article: 'The responses soon turned ugly when Occupy Wall Street tweeted a photograph of cops battling protesters with the caption "changing hearts and minds one baton at a time." Other photos included an elderly man bloodied after being arrested for jaywalking.' Police Commissioner Bill Bratton says, 'I kind of welcome the attention,' of the #myNYPD project."

The photos are "old news," Bratton said. "They’ve been out there for a long time."

Well, Commissioner Bratton, since these photos are old news and you are welcoming the attention they are getting, I'm sure you'd be happy to share with us what sort of investigation into these incidents there were and what punishment the officers received?

Exactly. Like when Kelly Thompson was beaten to death by police. There was full video of the whole incident showing that 1) the police had no reason to bother him, other than the fact that he was homeless, 2) he was not resisting arrest or refusing orders, and 3) even when they clearly had him detained, they continued to taz, kick, punch, etc..

Now that all seems rather damning, except you weren't there on the ride with the police! One of them had a bad day earlier, so that makes it acceptable to beat people to death. At least, the judge seemed to think so.

I don't know anyone who thinks the police "can do no wrong". Police are people just like the rest of us. The vast majority of them are stand up individuals who are honestly trying to help. The problem with these videos, is that they show a small fraction of everything police do, but have the effect of making it appear that all police are corrupt power hungry violent tempered men. So, as I've said before....comdemn those who misbehave and get them off the force, but stand behind those who risk their lives to make this a better and safer place to live.

No, but you apparently intend to remain willfully ignorant of the whole point of what I was saying. Maybe you should start by taking a look at the case I mentioned?

Police corruption is a real thing. Even when there is incredibly strong evidence, detailing everything that happened, police still band together and cover each other when they fuck up. Sometimes, the result is that they get away with a minor offense such as a traffic violation, and other times it directly results in the death of another person. If you honestly think it is acceptable for police to behave in that sort of fashion, then there's something wrong with you.

I have done ride alongs. The police assume everyone is a criminal. There are only two types of people. Cops and criminals. We never played "cops and innocent bystanders" as kids. We are trained that there are two sides. Long gone are the beat cops that proactively prevented crime by building relationships with the neighborhood. The cops swoop in arrest everyone, and let the lawyers sort it out. Cops that want to rise will work on beating out confessions to protect conviction rates. After all, if you are talking to a cop, you are a criminal, they just might not have proven it yet.

No, a ride along doesn't give justification as to why the armed cop is beating the unarmed person. The number one reason people are beat is "contempt of cop". If you don't follow orders fast enough, you are resisting. If you are resisting arrest, they can beat you. That's how it's done.

There are good cops and there are bad cops. The question is, is the law enforcement system itself good or bad? With all the plea bargaining, "anonymous tips" justifying searches, and even outright forging of evidence, it would seem that the system itself is corrupt.

The people in the US and Nazi Germany were the same, some good, some not so; but the systems they lived in were vastly different, and that mattered more for the overall outcome than individual preferences. Or think of a stock market, or even indi

I have done ride alongs. The police assume everyone is a criminal. There are only two types of people. Cops and criminals. We never played "cops and innocent bystanders" as kids. We are trained that there are two sides. Long gone are the beat cops that proactively prevented crime by building relationships with the neighborhood. The cops swoop in arrest everyone, and let the lawyers sort it out. Cops that want to rise will work on beating out confessions to protect conviction rates. After all, if you are talking to a cop, you are a criminal, they just might not have proven it yet.

No, a ride along doesn't give justification as to why the armed cop is beating the unarmed person. The number one reason people are beat is "contempt of cop". If you don't follow orders fast enough, you are resisting. If you are resisting arrest, they can beat you. That's how it's done.

I think one solution to this is for us to remind them they are actually our public servants as often as possible. If you are lost, then go up and ask them for directions if they seem to be standing around doing nothing. Hell, maybe even ask them if you are not lost just so they get to talk to a law abiding citizen for a change. Then, if they are helpful, be polite and courteous and make sure you say thanks.

They will still have to deal with utter some scumbags, but maybe if they spent more time dealing with people who are not then they might find it easier to not treat everyone like they are.

Sorry, there is just too much risk involved in that approach. You never know what might set a cop off. Maybe his wife left him, maybe he has a hang-over, you just don't know. Even if 99% of the time the interaction is going to be just fine, do you want to take the risk that you will end up in that 1%?

I know that is exactly how they think about interacting with the public too, which has lead to them being overly aggressive and assuming everyone is a criminal. The difference is that they have near immunit

I think one solution to this is for us to remind them they are actually our public servants as often as possible. If you are lost, then go up and ask them for directions if they seem to be standing around doing nothing. Hell, maybe even ask them if you are not lost just so they get to talk to a law abiding citizen for a change. Then, if they are helpful, be polite and courteous and make sure you say thanks.

They will still have to deal with utter some scumbags, but maybe if they spent more time dealing with

I have done this several times (not for this purpose but because I needed directions or other minor assistance). Each time the officer seemed to genuinely appreciate the chance to help and be seen as the "good guy" in the eyes of the person he was interacting with.

I don't ask cops anything (too many cops as friends to be deluded into thinking they are out to help, the fact that departments prefer ex-military and screen out intelligent cops seems to support my opinions), but I know of more than one person taken to jail for asking a cop directions. The cop was helpful at first, then took something in the question as suspicious (why would you need directions to the Interstate? Are you running from something? Why are you in a place you aren't familiar with?), and ran

Ah yes, the cop "assholes deserve to be physically assaulted" excuse. Why are you equating "asshole" with "dangerous"?

There are lots of people with warrants out that don't know it. My "proof" of that is the number of sites that do public record searches so you can see if you are "wanted". If wanted people were better informed, there wouldn't be a problem. But the only "notification" of a warrant is a sheriff knocking on your door and arresting you if you answer. Taking phone numbers, addresses, and se

maybe if they spent more time dealing with people who are not then they might find it easier to not treat everyone like they are.

Long ago, when I was still a member of TotalFark, one of the "open" threads started talking about anime. TotalFark is more general (though usually silly) news and so is equal parts jock/average joe/nerd. Here on Slashdot I probably don't have to explain what anime is to anyone, but on TF you might run into the odd person who does.

"The photos are 'old news,' Bratton said.""'They’ve been out there for a long time.'"

That's their public image. That's what the people they serve, and the people around the country, see them as. He's the boss... and he can't be bothered to give a shit. Clearly the problems with the NYPD go all the way to the top. Above Commissioner Bratton. Since this problem spans multiple mayoral administrations we have to just ask... does a politicians political appointees EVER represent the best choices for their constituency, or only the administration doing the appointing?

Because thanks to camera phones, it's a lot more visible that a lot of cops are not "good cops" they are brutal thugs who even the good cops protect.

We have a corrupt government, bought and paid for by the rich, and a police force that often acts like they run a police state, and yet some are so blind or intellectually dishonest they actually wonder why people don't trust the police.

...then they wouldn't consider this a failure. Truth and evidence should never be considered a failure. Identifying police brutality so that those individual cops can be punished, and thus hopefully prevent other cops from doing the same, should be considered a success. But obviously that's not how it works.

There are plenty of good cops out there, but by not punishing the bad cops it makes them all look bad.

Yes, look at the article: "NYPD spokeswoman Kim Royster told The New York Times the department was "creating new ways to communicate effectively with the community" and that Twitter provided "an open forum for an uncensored exchange" that is "good for our city."

There are plenty of good cops out there, but by not punishing the bad cops it makes them all look bad.Uh, no. By not punishing the "bad cops" those "good cops" become "bad cops". It's really that simple. It's also why as a species, humanity is fucked.

No, there are bad cops, and cops that cover for bad cops (and are thus, bad cops). There are no good cops. Well, maybe some rookies that are particularly dumb. But that's not hard, when there is a screening to get rid of smart cops, but none to get rid of dumb ones.

No, there are good cops. They can be found in good PDs where bad cops aren't tolerated. But when you have bad cops, you can be pretty sure their PD, its culture, and their union are all part of the problem.

And naturally the bad ones get the most publicity, which isn't fair even though it's to be expected.

Nor did she leak information the government considered confidential. What's with all the pro-government retards bashing Snowden? Just because Snowden isn't suicidal or masochistic doesn't mean he did anything wrong. We now have all the information we need, and we need to act on it.

Nor did she leak information the government considered confidential. What's with all the pro-government retards bashing Snowden? Just because Snowden isn't suicidal or masochistic doesn't mean he did anything wrong. We now have all the information we need, and we need to act on it.

There is a quasi-acknowledged organized campaign afoot to manipulate the comment sections of web forums to give them a more pro-establishment bent and combat "wrong" information. See here [zerohedge.com]. Ironically it was Snowden who confirmed this for us. It's always hard to tell when someone is voicing their true opinion, and when they are doing their master's bidding. But some of the rise in pro-establishment, anti-Snowden, anti-Wikileaks opinion is due to a concerted effort by government agents.

Comparing Snowden to this NYDP officer does the officer a great deal of injustice.

Rosa Parks sat on a bus and got arrested for it. She didn't move to the soviet Union to tell us how great their buses are.

Snowden did not "move to the Soviet Union". The U.S. government illegally pulled his passport (he was not under accusation and still isn't) and stranded him in the Soviet Union. And now filthy and documented liars and perjurers like Clapper and Holder put on crocodile tears over Snowden having to cope with the situation they are responsible for.

In this case all but one were bad. How can they not get the most publicity when the entire department is rotten to the core? The only honest one among them was abused and tossed out in disgust. The fact that there are police departments like that and no good cop comes forward to arrest them all means that there are no good cops in that jurisdiction at all. Local, county, state, and federal are all rotten for such a thing to take place and not one single law enforcement officer did their job.

If you aren't trying to imply any causality, why mention a correlation? It was commentary on your inability to fail to take a stab at unions. So many people are insane about hating anything that might reduce the power gap between the employers and the employees.

Just one example. tl;dr: Officer shoots someone's dog after it was already restrained as shown on video, gets brought up on charges for it, union summarily declares him innocent of all charges and rallies all available LEOs to "show support" by turning up en masse to pressure the court. But they're totally not part of the problem amirite?

There are plenty of good cops out there, but by not punishing the bad cops it makes them all look bad.

Does it merely make them look bad? A bad cop is a more dangerous criminal than most of the people the cops are there to deal with. If the 'good cops' aren't enthusiastically hunting them down, I'd say that they are ineffectual at best and complicit at worst, not merely sullied by unfortunate proximity.

Does it merely make them look bad? A bad cop is a more dangerous criminal than most of the people the cops are there to deal with. If the 'good cops' aren't enthusiastically hunting them down, I'd say that they are ineffectual at best and complicit at worst, not merely sullied by unfortunate proximity.

Very good point, but I suppose "good" and "bad" is a spectrum. The problem is, if a cop with the best intentions knows about bad/illegal behavior of another cop, what are they going to do? If they report them (at least if they're not the bad cop's superior), then the bad cop will still not be punished, but the otherwise good cop will be harassed and hazed until they have no choice but to quit or be fired (or in the case previously mentioned be thrown in a mental institution). So, would it do more "good"

I suppose the answer to that depends on how idealistic you are, but the real world tends not to be boolean.

Nor does it have to be, as that depends on individual preferences. If you want to never change a damn thing, then don't do anything about bad cops. It's a good way to ensure that they'll forever be able to do as they please.

Very good point, but I suppose "good" and "bad" is a spectrum. The problem is, if a cop with the best intentions knows about bad/illegal behavior of another cop, what are they going to do? If they report them (at least if they're not the bad cop's superior), then the bad cop will still not be punished, but the otherwise good cop will be harassed and hazed until they have no choice but to quit or be fired (or in the case previously mentioned be thrown in a mental institution). So, would it do more "good" in the world to get shoved out the door and not effect change, or to continue doing what you can to bust the criminals that you can? I suppose the answer to that depends on how idealistic you are, but the real world tends not to be boolean.

If they haven't, everyone should see the movie Serpico. Not only is it a good movie made back when Al Pacino actually acted, but it shows the dynamic that an honest cop has to deal with in a corrupt precinct. It is fictional, but it is a good depiction of the options available.

I have heard of no evidence for there being ANY good cops. If there were any, it would be in the news that instead of various projects uncovering criminal behavior, it would be the cops, themselves, and it never seems to happen. There are cops who are murderers, rapists, thieves, and just plain thugs, and the rest of them are guilty of covering for the criminals. What happened to the NYPD officers who gang sodomized that Jamaican? The POLICE OFFICERS UNION p

I have heard of no evidence for there being ANY good cops. If there were any, it would be in the news that instead of various projects uncovering criminal behavior, it would be the cops, themselves, and it never seems to happen. There are cops who are murderers, rapists, thieves, and just plain thugs, and the rest of them are guilty of covering for the criminals. What happened to the NYPD officers who gang sodomized that Jamaican? The POLICE OFFICERS UNION pressured the city not to throw the SOBs in jail.

Nonsense. Bad news sells papers. "Cops beat defenceless grandmother" will get a lot more people buying newspapers, than "Cops help little old lady cross busy street safely". There are good cops and there are bad cops. The good cops outnumber the bad ones - vastly, I trust, as the selection process will help in that respect.

The "bad cop busted" is still news, and the "hero cop does the bust" just makes it better news. I have NEVER heard of a "bad cop" bust (and there have been many over my lifetime) where it was a "good cop" on his force that did it. It has always been outsiders.

The "bad cop busted" is still news, and the "hero cop does the bust" just makes it better news. I have NEVER heard of a "bad cop" bust (and there have been many over my lifetime) where it was a "good cop" on his force that did it. It has always been outsiders.

You are young then. I try to keep explaining to people that things were NOT always this bad. From Wiki. I could see this station from my front porch growing up:

1980s - "Marquette Ten": 10 police officers in Chicago's Marquette District were convicted of taking bribes from drug dealers. Among those was Chicago police officer Thomas Ambrose, the father of former U.S. Marshall John Ambrose, who was convicted 20-years later of leaking information to the Chicago Outfit about federal informant Nick Calabrese,

Good cop story: I was accosted by four cops in squad cars one night in Tucson about midnight. I'd gotten hungry and decided to go to the local burrito joint. I wanted to read while I was there, so I took my netbook. It was cold, so I jogged the few blocks to the Taco Shop.

'Course, the cops see a guy running down the road with a laptop, and go "huh, we'd better see what the hell is going on here."

Cop says "Eh, what're you doing?" I tell him I'm headed to the Taco Shop for a burrito, and ask him what the problem is. He says "Is that your computer?" I tell him "Yeah... now that I think about it, I do look suspicious, I guess. Look, can I boot the thing and show you documents with my name on them, and that it matches my driver's license?"

The cop tells me to go ahead, so I do. He says "Well, looks like it's your computer -- have a nice night" and they leave me alone.

Unfortunately, in a lot of places trying to do what I did (talk to the cops, rather than say "I do not consent to any searches and would like a lawyer") ends badly. But Tucson PD is pretty relaxed. I just wish police in more places could be trusted to treat citizens like citizens rather than "criminals they haven't caught yet"; I imagine they'd be better at preventing crime if they did.

(For those not well-versed in Arizona geopolitics: the place with the out-of-control xenophobic sheriff is Phoenix, north of Tucson. There Hispanics are regularly harassed by the police. In Tucson a big chunk of the police *are* Hispanic; it's a city that is far more tolerant.)

no offence intended... but are you white/caucasian/member of the majority race?

i am a sri lankan living in sri lanka, and i am (officially) sinhalese.. the majority race.. i know that my being part of the majority has got me out of a lot of grief... and because of that i go out of my way to help people that are getting grief because they are the minority..

i am not blaming you, far from it. but saying that a white person running with a laptop would probably be treated far FAR differently from a POC doing the same thing

I am white, but two or three of the four cops were Hispanic, as is almost half of Tucson. (Many billboards are in Spanish, for instance: not only are there a lot of folks who speak the language, they are wealthy enough that it's worth selling them things.) That's why I included that coda about racial politics in Arizona to my post: it's a) the Border Patrol, and b) the nutters in Phoenix that make a habit of haranguing folks for "driving while Mexican"; the Tucson PD, keeping watch over a city with a large

Just FYI - PG County in Maryland had famously violent and racist cops. They did a big affermative action push and now the Blacks are getting beat and abused by Black cops instead of white cops
It is entirely likely the hispanic cops give you the same preference as the white cops. OTOH if I was a cop and I saw someone running at night with a computer, I might ask what was going on too;)

One of these shows a police officer pinning a guy to the ground with his knee so that he can cuff him (presumably after the guy already did something wrong and tried to resist arrest.) That is hardly what I'd call brutality.

Also another one of these shows a guy laying on the ground screaming near a police motorcycle. I remember hearing about that, the motorcycle barely nudged him on accident and he deliberately dropped on the ground screaming like a 5 year old, way over-reacting to the incident. The guy (lo

I understand that the police can go too far, but protesters and rioters certainly can and do go too far as well.

We hold the police to a higher standard for a very good reason. If the occupy people did that crap to me, I'd probably stop so I could kick the guys ass. But I'm not a cop, I'm not on duty, and it's not my job to put up with that kind of crap. Annoyed with protesters? Don't get a job as a cop dead center in the protest capital of the country.

What you're essentially asking for is to have a job where you're expected to get rocks and garbage thrown at you (yes, this is common at occupy events) and for you to just stand there and take it. That is exactly what happens prior to these incidents.

Cops are humans, and as such they don't want to have to be denigrated like that any more than you do.

Think about this: If you deliberately provoke a reaction, do you think it's possible that you just might succeed in getting one?

Right, because clearly beating somebody bloody with a baton is the only way they've ever handled it.

Most of these photos don't even depict abuse, rather they depict some derp acting like a jackass and then resisting arrest, and getting a knee to the neck. That's hardly what I'd call abuse, meanwhile the caption is "oh the humanity!"

Usually there are other indications along with these, such as scratches, abrasions, lacerations, etc, (RARELY bruising, as bruising usually occurs after the fact) that are normal when you struggle on the ground. In most of these pictures, you see no such indications. Typically that means the person was very quickly brought to the ground and cuffed as that picture was being taken. If that is the case, then it's very hard to argue that there was any kind of abuse. Abuse is when they beat on them either before

What you're essentially asking for is to have a job where you're expected to get rocks and garbage thrown at you (yes, this is common at occupy events) and for you to just stand there and take it.

Yes, that is exactly what is expected. In a crowded area where it is usually pretty hard to see how threw something out of a large group of people the only option is to either put up with it or wade in and start hitting everyone. If you take the latter approch you start to look at everyone as a criminal, peaceful protester or not. It also makes protest practically impossible because a single arsehole throwing something is a green light for the police to smash everyone's skull in.

Cops are humans, and as such they don't want to have to be denigrated like that any more than you do.

Of course they don't. But they chose a profession that requires them to uphold a higher standard. Why? Well, for the idealistic rationale: because someone who chooses to be a policeman, they are presumed to prefer order and law over chaos. Thus, they are expected to be the guy who walks away from an insult rather than starting a barfight. If they don't have those sorts of ideals, they shouldn't become a cop.

The more practical reason? Because they usually carry deadly weapons or other arms that could

One of these shows a police officer pinning a guy to the ground with his knee so that he can cuff him (presumably after the guy already did something wrong and tried to resist arrest.) That is hardly what I'd call brutality.

I've seen full video for something like that. The person was compliant, but the police treated him roughly anyway, knowing that the abuse apologists like you would justify it.

The nice thing about the knee-pin move is that, while it lacks the drama and blood of a good mag-lite to the face and thus plays comparatively well for the cameras, there is a relatively thin line between 'pinning' and 'compressive asphyxia'. Just a matter of how much weight you put on that knee...

"The guy (looked to be in his 50's or 60's) was acting like a baby trying to get attention and it was so cringe worthy that if I was there I would have been tempted to slap him and tell him to grow up for once in his life."

And what if he had a bone disease? Bone spurs? Even a tiny bump can cause the most excruciating pain, you ill-educated person. I should know, I have lumbosacral arthritis and if I even so much as tap my spine/pelvis area I'm on the ground crying.

"presumably after the guy already did something wrong and tried to resist arrest."

Is that anything like the below case, where a passenger in a car where the driver did run stayed in the car and waited for police to return. After they came back he slowly exited the car with his hands up and made no attempt to flee or resist and they still chucked him to the ground, pinned him down, tased him, punched and kicked him multiple times and then heaved him face first into the back of a police cruiser with his hands cuffed behind his back?

I love how they tase the passenger, which causes loss of voluntary muscle control. This is then written up as "resisting arrest" for not putting your hands behind your back or not following whatever other orders are given. Now they have "justification" for further beating. You could spend all day on youtube watching similar examples.

it should be legally obvious that you can't be arrested *only* for "resisting arrest"

Logically, [copblock.org] that [wftv.com] makes complete sense. [nypost.com] However, police officers [reason.com] and District Attorneys, and the legal system in general, do not operate on a purely logical basis.

The New York Post one is my favorite, and a prime example of how idiotic this belief that "if you were arrested the police must have had a reason" mindset. The officers hit a parked car with a guy in passenger seat going the wrong way and they blame it on him! And without video evidence he likely would have been convicted of destruction of public property, resisting arrest & disorderly conduct.

One of these shows a police officer pinning a guy to the ground with his knee so that he can cuff him (presumably after the guy already did something wrong and tried to resist arrest.)

Presumably!?!? So, you are claiming to know the truth, and admit in the same sentence that you don't. Police actions not only may be questioned, they must be questioned. If they do nothing wrong then they have nothing to be worried about when we question them, right? That's the same approach they often take with us, no?

Police actions should be questioned. Thing is, we may not have good answers.

A shot of an officer pinning a guy with a knee and cuffing him doesn't itself allow a conclusion. It could be done as a minimum-force way to cuff a violent offender. It could be done as a painful way to deal with an innocent. It isn't evidence of any wrongdoing, on either the arrester's or the arrestee's side.

Times that policemen got respect automatically are over. The enforcement of unjust laws, such as most related to the war on drugs, undermines public respect for the police, at least amongst a large minority. I think that it the greatest danger of unjust or ineffective laws.

The best thing the police could do to improve its image, would be to advocate the abolotion of unjust laws, even if these provide them with easy money.

Why are cops in cities terrible?Is it because of bad apples? ( Maybe, but even good cops still do jerk things)Is it because they have a lot of legal protection for bad behavior (maybe, but in the US you can get some restitution, and they can get punished)It's really because police are just giant revenue generating machines for the city.In order for a police officer to advance in his career, he is measured by the number of citations, summons, and arrests he has achieved.And if performance is based on the num

Actually, Gerhard Weinberg did some studying and found that, if a soldier refused to be brutal to Jews, they'd find him a new assignment and bring in one who would brutalize Jews. He found no cases where somebody was actually punished for refusing. (A surprising number of Germans willingly participated in such acts. A large number sent home photographs showing them guilty of war crimes.)

Of course, when the reassignment is to the Eastern Front, there's going to be some pressure there.

A lot of strange AC stories seem to make it and then get flooded with more AC comments trying to have a smart "debate" or change "views" on sets of gov or legal topics.
It might be one person or a few people but the tone and flow is usually the same with the style of links.