A new CBS News/New York Times poll finds that President-elect Barack Obama is the recipient of the highest levels of optimism and expectations of any modern president.

Seventy-nine percent of Americans say they are optimistic about the next four years, according to the poll. Only 16 percent say they are pessimistic.

and

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But Americans don't expect things to change overnight. Most think it will take two years or more, for the economy to turn around. They suspect progress on another pocketbook issue, health care, will take a lot longer. Most think that is at least four years off.

Although the economy overtook foreign policy concerns in 2008, another important Obama campaign promise was to end the Iraq war. And most Americans (61 percent) think the new Administration will make progress toward ending the war within two years.

If Mr. Obama does make progress ending the war, that would please the 73 percent of Americans who want to see troops decreased or removed from Iraq altogether.

So, confidence and approval very high, but tempered by somewhat reasonable acknowledgement that deeply entrenched problems may take a while to fix.

However, there is a certain, uh, segment of the country that likes to play a little game. The game should be familiar by now, and it goes like this: Grossly overstate the worshipful attitude of "the left" towards Obama. Refer to him endlessly as "our messiah." Pretend like we all expect him to part the seas and turn the water to wine on his first day in office.

Then, of course, once he's in office and politics and the world happen, begin to crow about how disheartened and shattered we all must be, to have been so cruelly used by this con man/empty suit/socialist/etc.

So! To save time, let's have at it!

I'll start: I think Obama is reasonably liberal on some things, smart, hard working, and abso-fucking-lutely guaranteed to be a massive improvement over the lazy, incurious dumbfuck that we are showing the door at long last.

I don't think he's going to usher in a liberal paradise, I don't think he's going to beat our swords into plowshares, I don't think the economy is going to start booming in a year, or two years, but I think things should be looking up by the third year of his term.

I think he's going to use actual science to inform his decisions, instead of pure ideology, I think he's going to roll back the worse excesses of Bush's GWOT, I think he's going to be much better on starting us down the path to a coherent, sustainable energy policy.

I think he has and is going to appoint smart, competent people to help him do these things, instead of stupid, ideologically pure hacks.

I will fucking not be dismayed when he acts like a politician, or compromises on something important to me, or lies. Because I fully expect that.

In short, I don't expect miracles, but Bush has set the bar so low it's almost impossible not to expect serious improvement in many aspects of governance.

Some folks seem to be missing this basic point. Bush was a disaster, the worst president in modern times, a hack and a figurehead who could not have cared less about making government do its job. All the Bush admin cared about was securing power for the Republican Party, for all eternity if possible. Because banana republics are not noted for their efficacy, that program predictably brought the country low.

I think most Americans (as suggested by the polls) sort of get this at some level. This cohort of starry eyed hippies that allegedly got the guy elected (well, them and the liberal media)?

Bullshit. We are a pragmatic peoples. We came to hate Bush because his government was really bad at executing. We get the sense that Obama will be much better. End of story.

They spoke of the sayings and doings of their commander, the grand duke, and told stories of his kindness and irascibility.

We, the United States of America, your top quality supplier of ideals of democracy, would like to apologize for our 2001-2008 interruption in service. The technical fault that led to this eight-year service outage has been located, and the software responsible was replaced November 4. Early tests of the newly installed program indicate that we are now operating correctly, and we expect it to be fully functional on January 20.

We apologize for any inconvenience caused by the outage. We look forward to resuming full service and hope to improve in years to come. We thank you for your patience and understanding,

Sincerely,
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We the public deserve an honest complete review of the facts with scientific interpretation and implications as to what really happened on 9/11. Bill Binney, Former senior technical director, NSA.

The information I've been seeing leads me to believe this recession/depression could very well last 5 to 10 years. If we allow our government to spend the trillions they are planning to spend in a foolish attempt to avoid what NEEDS to happen with our economy, then the ill effects will be prolonged and our dollars will be further devalued. Hyperinflation could also be on the horizon.

Obama is a very intelligent person, so I have the best of hopes for him. That being said, I think there is literally no political way out of this quagmire of historic proportions. On the other hand, 40 years from now, the grown-ups will be able to say with a straight face, "y'know when I was a kid, we didn't have all of the stuff you kids take for granted today! You with your fancy mind-phones, artificial intelligence and diamond-encrusted spacesuits..."

the above is exactly what prolonged or created the "great" depression, fed and govt over reacted, gov't policies kept pulling us into deeper and deeper depression. the problem is that government wants to grow and uses these "moments of created crisis" to do just that. our founding fathers built this wonderful constitution to prevent "tyranny of government", it grows as our liberty grows less. the politicians only want to use our money and votes to give them power to remain in power and create dynasties. we must be ever vigil against growing tyrannical government. watch.....what you says is true this recession will last longer much longer.
i can't imagine having trillion dollar deficits and massive inflation. i think we are reliving the 1930'S

So, confidence and approval very high, but tempered by somewhat reasonable acknowledgement that deeply entrenched problems may take a while to fix.

However, there is a certain, uh, segment of the country that likes to play a little game. The game should be familiar by now, and it goes like this: Grossly overstate the worshipful attitude of "the left" towards Obama. Refer to him endlessly as "our messiah." Pretend like we all expect him to part the seas and turn the water to wine on his first day in office.

Then, of course, once he's in office and politics and the world happen, begin to crow about how disheartened and shattered we all must be, to have been so cruelly used by this con man/empty suit/socialist/etc.

So! To save time, let's have at it!

I'll start: I think Obama is reasonably liberal on some things, smart, hard working, and abso-fucking-lutely guaranteed to be a massive improvement over the lazy, incurious dumbfuck that we are showing the door at long last.

I don't think he's going to usher in a liberal paradise, I don't think he's going to beat our swords into plowshares, I don't think the economy is going to start booming in a year, or two years, but I think things should be looking up by the third year of his term.

I think he's going to use actual science to inform his decisions, instead of pure ideology, I think he's going to roll back the worse excesses of Bush's GWOT, I think he's going to be much better on starting us down the path to a coherent, sustainable energy policy.

I think he has and is going to appoint smart, competent people to help him do these things, instead of stupid, ideologically pure hacks.

I will fucking not be dismayed when he acts like a politician, or compromises on something important to me, or lies. Because I fully expect that.

In short, I don't expect miracles, but Bush has set the bar so low it's almost impossible not to expect serious improvement in many aspects of governance.

Some folks seem to be missing this basic point. Bush was a disaster, the worst president in modern times, a hack and a figurehead who could not have cared less about making government do its job. All the Bush admin cared about was securing power for the Republican Party, for all eternity if possible. Because banana republics are not noted for their efficacy, that program predictably brought the country low.

I think most Americans (as suggested by the polls) sort of get this at some level. This cohort of starry eyed hippies that allegedly got the guy elected (well, them and the liberal media)?

Bullshit. We are a pragmatic peoples. We came to hate Bush because his government was really bad at executing. We get the sense that Obama will be much better. End of story.

Only the anti Obama types have ever used the word " Utopia " in reference to Obama's term in office.

Their take seems to be if everything isn't picture perfect with Obama he's a failure and should be shot at sunrise. That's because Bush was such an utter one and they know it / can't stand it etc.

Without the need for difference or a need to always follow the herd breeds complacency, mediocrity, and a lack of imagination

I would personally be happy to never invoke Bush's name after tomorrow, and I plan on doing the best I can at that. Once we're extricated from Iraq and Guantanamo is shut down, that will be easier...

That's not really what I meant. Bush and Clinton have legacies that surely need to be debated.
Beyond Iraq and Gitmo, Afghanistan and the economy will certainly mean that Bush's name will be invoked regularly for years.

But Bush and Clinton both inspired partisans from the opposite side to become intensely personal in their political hatred. I think Obama can (and should) be criticized for many things, but I hope it never gets as personal as it became with his recent predecessors.

This kind of 'preemptive' thread nonsense has to stop. Adda, if you've got a point to make, try to string some coherent sentences together instead of attempting to put words in the mouths of Trumpt and others.

I'm guessing you don't actually read Nick's posts? And what "preemptive thread nonsense"? Is there some kind of trend I'm unaware of?

Quote:

Hopefully, now that Obama is in office, the Left is no longer obsessed with Bush and the right with Clinton, we can start discussing problems and opinions rationally again.

The left was never "obsessed" with Bush, we thought he was a shitty president, which he objectively was. We thought the right that mindlessly championed him, long after it became evident he was a train wreck, did a disservice to our country. The majority of Americans have come round to that opinion. All perfectly rational.

Quote:

Let's hope Change starts here at AI.

I'm guessing you don't actually read Nick's posts?

They spoke of the sayings and doings of their commander, the grand duke, and told stories of his kindness and irascibility.

That's not really what I meant. Bush and Clinton have legacies that surely need to be debated.
Beyond Iraq and Gitmo, Afghanistan and the economy will certainly mean that Bush's name will be invoked regularly for years.

But Bush and Clinton both inspired partisans from the opposite side to become intensely personal in their political hatred. I think Obama can (and should) be criticized for many things, but I hope it never gets as personal as it became with his recent predecessors.

Dear god, please no more of this "a pox on both their houses" crap.

Gangs are not seen as legitimate, because they don't have control over public schools.

I'm guessing you don't actually read Nick's posts? And what "preemptive thread nonsense"? Is there some kind of trend I'm unaware of?

The left was never "obsessed" with Bush, we thought he was a shitty president, which he objectively was. We thought the right that mindlessly championed him, long after it became evident he was a train wreck, did a disservice to our country. The majority of Americans have come round to that opinion. All perfectly rational.

I'm guessing you don't actually read Nick's posts?

Awesome, now not only is it all about me, but it is preemptively all about me!

I guess when you deal in caricatures, it is just more fun to start posting as the caricature rather than waiting for real material to try and caricature.

I think you should call it The Trumptman Report and pay me appropriate royalties.

And for the rest of you, how sad is it that complaints are about how conservative guys like me post to much but when the liberal guys post, it is them just pretending to post as me anyway so they can have something to rail against and complain about as opposed to you know... discussing ideas and putting thoughts forward.

The information I've been seeing leads me to believe this recession/depression could very well last 5 to 10 years. If we allow our government to spend the trillions they are planning to spend in a foolish attempt to avoid what NEEDS to happen with our economy, then the ill effects will be prolonged and our dollars will be further devalued. Hyperinflation could also be on the horizon.

What, EXACTLY needs to happen?

Soup lines? 25% unemployment.

I'd suggest that the Dr. "Do Nothing" No strategy will produce the above desired effects.

Every eye fixed itself upon him; with parted lips and bated breath the audience hung upon his words, taking no note of time, rapt in the ghastly fascinations of the tale. NOT!

This kind of 'preemptive' thread nonsense has to stop. Adda, if you've got a point to make, try to string some coherent sentences together instead of attempting to put words in the mouths of Trumpt and others.

Hopefully, now that Obama is in office, the Left is no longer obsessed with Bush and the right with Clinton, we can start discussing problems and opinions rationally again.

However, there is a certain, uh, segment of the country that likes to play a little game. The game should be familiar by now, and it goes like this: Grossly overstate the worshipful attitude of "the left" towards Obama. Refer to him endlessly as "our messiah." Pretend like we all expect him to part the seas and turn the water to wine on his first day in office.

Then, of course, once he's in office and politics and the world happen, begin to crow about how disheartened and shattered we all must be, to have been so cruelly used by this con man/empty suit/socialist/etc.

So! To save time, let's have at it!

Quote:

A straw man argument is an informal fallacy based on misrepresentation of an opponent's position.To "set up a straw man," one describes a position that superficially resembles an opponent's actual view, yet is easier to refute. Then, one attributes that position to the opponent. For example, someone might deliberately overstate the opponent's position. While a straw man argument may work as a rhetorical techniqueand succeed in persuading peopleit carries little or no real evidential weight, since the opponent's actual argument has not been refuted.

Yeah, it's from wikipedia, but it seems appropriate.

"My 8th grade math teacher once said: "You can't help it if you're dumb, you are born that way. But stupid is self inflicted."" -Hiro.

There is a substantial body of right wing rhetoric that is pleased to pretend like Obama is viewed by his supporters as a "messiah" and that such supporters fully expect him to wave his magic wand and fix all that is wrong with America. This notion has been articulated on these boards, repeatedly, but it more importantly figures to be a repeated line of attack from the right during the Obama administration.

So, any given narcissist hereabouts not withstanding, I think it makes sense to articulate some of the perspective that liberals and Obama supporters bring to the new administration.

For my money, and as I have said, a lot of this involves the very low bar that has been set. An Obama administration doesn't have to be magic to do a much better job at governance, they just have to execute reasonably well without an incredibly blinkered ideological agenda backed with near total reliance on PR and message management calling all the shots.

At the same time, I (and every "liberal" that I know) do not expect miracles. I don't even expect all that much "liberalism", although I'm sure the contrast with the regressive thugs that came before will be striking. And I certainly intend to speak up when Obama makes choices that I think are wrong for the country, which I have no doubt he will.

I am impressed, though, that taking note of this (very widespread, very overt, and likely to be ongoing) wielding of a cartoon straw man of Obama and his supporters is itself (of course) being characterized as a cartoon and straw man.

Did I say "impressed"? I meant "bored to tears."

At any rate, I started this thread for a reason. As the "I bet the liberals are crying bitter tears now" threads and right wing noise rolls on in, we have a handy repository to check in with.

They spoke of the sayings and doings of their commander, the grand duke, and told stories of his kindness and irascibility.