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To be fair, as Hagbard pointed out in another thread, we haven't heard DI's side of that story.

That's true, Reefie. In fact nowadays the only place you can get to hear David's side of the story is in his out-of-print autobiography In The Light of Experience. Naturally there's no way the newspapers would want to know about that, even if David bothered to tell them.

_________________"Lynda, you're sweet. From what I've seen of your world, do you think anybody votes for sweet?"
Doctor Who- Bad Wolf.

"Because he refused to compete in games of domination he was indomitable"
from The Dispossessed by Ursula Le Guin

And that's a good question, Mark (as opposed to a good question mark ). I keep complaining how CT sites misrepresent the reported details to distort people's opinions, so it's fair to let DI illuminate (or is that "illuminati"? ) what really happened.

Unless he's challenging that it is his child (or the conception occurred without him actually being present) then I'm on seat's edge for his explanation. Please let it not be something about vibrations, pure energy or eternal love being the only truth!

Ok Hag. I am being a little biased there. But it's funny, ok??

_________________Once I thought I knew everything. But then I realised I was wrong – I now know much more!

Contrary to popular belief Deborah Shaw, or Mari Shawsun, was not David's secretary or anybody who worked for him. She was a Canadian lady who helped David do some Earth energy healing work across many parts of the world. During the course of this work they had a relationship. David describes this event with a lot of dignity and professionalism. He doesn't make excuses or ask anybody's pardon. While David and Mari were doing this work in Europe, and because Mari was having david's daughter Rebecca, Mari lived with David's family on the Isle of Wight. This situation quickly became untenable because the household couldn't function properly. David describes Mari as being very hurtful towards Linda, David wife. Eventually she moved out and today she actually lives in a town not far from Oxford doing reflexology (Do you feel under scrutiny? I can be funny too. ) I'll have to look in the book to refresh my memory to get more details on that. So, as always, the tabloids are factually right, but they twist the facts and omit the human story to suit their own ends: creating a gossip sensation.

_________________"Lynda, you're sweet. From what I've seen of your world, do you think anybody votes for sweet?"
Doctor Who- Bad Wolf.

"Because he refused to compete in games of domination he was indomitable"
from The Dispossessed by Ursula Le Guin

David describes this event with a lot of dignity and professionalism. He doesn't make excuses or ask anybody's pardon. While David and Mari were doing this work in Europe, and because Mari was having david's daughter Rebecca, Mari lived with David's family on the Isle of Wight. This situation quickly became untenable because the household couldn't function properly. David describes Mari as being very hurtful towards Linda, David wife. Eventually she moved out and today she actually lives in a town not far from Oxford doing reflexology (Do you feel under scrutiny? I can be funny too. ) I'll have to look in the book to refresh my memory to get more details on that. So, as always, the tabloids are factually right, but they twist the facts and omit the human story to suit their own ends: creating a gossip sensation.

Not casting judgement here, but interested in understanding more…

It sounds like DI's view of the whole subject is that he's done nothing immoral. Would this be your interpretation? Does he present the incident as being a spiritual and uplifting expression of love or something like that?

Regarding the mainstream media report (which you described as "tabloids"), the actual words were "The introduction of psychic Deborah Shaw into the house completed what the media called “the turquoise triangle” – a colour Mr Icke wore for its “positive energy” – although Ms Shaw was kicked out when she became pregnant with Icke’s daughter". The use of the phrase "kicked out" makes an implication she was forced to leave (was she?) but the rest of the paragraph sounds pretty level and I don't see which facts are supposedly twisted. Could you enlighten me?

_________________Once I thought I knew everything. But then I realised I was wrong – I now know much more!

It sounds like DI's view of the whole subject is that he's done nothing immoral. Would this be your interpretation? Does he present the incident as being a spiritual and uplifting expression of love or something like that?

Not at all. However he does talk about how it's connected to his Earth-healing energy work. But he describes this period in his life as one of great emotional turmoil and pain. I'm at Ustane's place right now; I'll have a look at the book when I get home and give you more details.

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– although Ms Shaw was kicked out when she became pregnant with Icke’s daughter"[/i]. The use of the phrase "kicked out" makes an implication she was forced to leave (was she?) but the rest of the paragraph sounds pretty level and I don't see which facts are supposedly twisted. Could you enlighten me?

The phrase "kicked out" is extremely loaded and perjorative! It was nothing like that at all, and the simple presence of this phrase may well poison the entire remaining article and make it impossible to judge in exclusion. As I said, I'll have to look up the details in the book when I get home; that will be tomorrow evening.

_________________"Lynda, you're sweet. From what I've seen of your world, do you think anybody votes for sweet?"
Doctor Who- Bad Wolf.

"Because he refused to compete in games of domination he was indomitable"
from The Dispossessed by Ursula Le Guin

The phrase "kicked out" is extremely loaded and perjorative! It was nothing like that at all, and the simple presence of this phrase may well poison the entire remaining article and make it impossible to judge in exclusion.

Yes. When I read that expression, I get this image of the lass getting pressured to leave their warmth of their home and make it in the world on her own, when she would rather have stayed there.

Look forward to hearing what the situation actually was when you do get to look it up. Mind you, I'd like to hear her side of the story too, as I'd imagine it may differ greatly from DI's.

_________________Once I thought I knew everything. But then I realised I was wrong – I now know much more!

Look forward to hearing what the situation actually was when you do get to look it up. Mind you, I'd like to hear her side of the story too, as I'd imagine it may differ greatly from DI's.

I'm sure the newspaper interview with Mari Shawsun is archived somewhere. But today she is not famous. She lives in a town not far from Oxford and works as a reflexologist.

Anyway this is David's side of the story. I've not reproduced it verbatim for Copyright reasons, and also for the sake of brevity. The whole passage is in Light..., which is out-of-print but there are lots of second hand copies floating about:

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It also came through (channeled by David from his spirit guides) on that visit to Canada that Mari (Deborah Shaw) was being asked to return with me to live with my family in England and channel information for the next book Love Changes Everything. Mari’s job had just ended and she had been refused residential status by the Canadian authorities which surprised everyone. She hurriedly arranged to leave Canada and she flew back to England with me. When we arrived at Gatwick Airport we were met by Linda and a few journalists who were following up the story about the “Socrates vision”...

...While I was there (In Mari’s house in Canada) after that incredible event on the mound (in Peru) I started taking automatic writing and time and time again I was told that I had to have a physical relationship with Mari. It was part of the plan and it was very necessary.... The writing said it was something to do with the effect on energies. “What!?” I remember saying as I looked at the page. “You must be bloody joking! I have heard some excuses for it, but affecting energies is the best yet! Where is this coming from?” But the writing kept on flowing: “You will not understand the significance of what we’re asking you to do, but believe us it is necessary.”

(David refused but his guides insisted that it had already happened in the etheric so it had to happen in the physical. This left him in “emotional turmoil”)

I felt guilty about Linda and yet I felt guilty about not doing what was necessary.(It turned out on a later visit to Canada that Mari had received similar channeled messages about David)

Throughout this period I was floating around in a kind of spiritual mist. The brakes were suspended and some force took over me. The word “hypnotized” comes to mind. As this process gathered pace the personality we know as David Icke went on holiday somewhere else in the great unknown. The turquoise press conference came three weeks later. I didn’t understand what on Earth was happening to me. The confusion was total. Talking to Linda about the situation was just agony for me, and for her. I can’t tell you how much! Nothing I ever do in this life again could ever be so painful. I put off the moment as long as I could, although she is an intelligent woman and knew all along. Apart from the pain, another reason I put it off for as long as possible was that I might get a better idea of what this was all about.

In the end the press forced the issue as I knew they always would. Linda stayed with me for her love for me and the love she never once doubted I had for her. Also she had the knowledge that whatever the rights and wrongs of what happened, my motivations were simply to do whatever was necessary for the good of all. I would walk naked down Oxford Street if it would help this planet survive! Part of her consciousness was suspended throughout that period too. The Linda Icke before would never have stood for what happened or was to come as it was against her beliefs.

I felt sorry for Mari too. She was stuck in the spare room-cum-office at our home (David didn’t live at the flat he has now in those days) with her life in limbo. It was very difficult for her and I felt terribly guilty about her situation. Unfortunately, once she arrived in England, a side of Mari emerged that was to turn a difficult situation into a nightmare. She was to become, to my conscious level, the most unpleasant and destructive person I have ever met. Going for a walk alone with Linda would bring tears of enormous rage from Mari when we returned. I wanted to say nothing in public about this, but some misrepresentations need to be corrected. Linda and many others felt that Mari was trying to force Linda out through various means. As with Linda, the former earthly personality called David Icke would never have stood for this and Mari would have been asked to leave immediately, but I talked with Linda and we agreed that people had a right to have the information in the book Love Changes Everything that we were working on at the time, and that meant we needed Mari’s channeling. So we would put up with the situation until the book was completed and then and then many decisions would be made by all parties about the future.

The more it became clear to Mari that the bond between Linda and me was not to be broken the more angry she became and life became increasingly difficult. By the time of the trip to South America it had reached such a pitch that the mere mention of my family was enough to move Mari to tears or incredible rage. Yet, at other times, she could be the most delightful person and great company. As spring became summer the brakes slowly returned. I decided that the situation had to end. I didn’t care if it was necessary or not, it’s over! No more! How my family held together I will never know. Mari always claimed that Linda was a weak person. Mari, like most of humanity, mistakes strength for the loudest voice or the most dominant personality. That’s not strength, it is often a cover for weakness. Linda personifies strength and only somebody with immense inner reserves could have coped with what had happened and what was to come. (During the final editing of Love Changes Everything) I received some automatic writing saying that Mari’s time with us was coming to an end and she would be invited to return to Canada alone. It was like turning the release valve on a pressure cooker, bursting a balloon of pent-up emotion! Life became so much more peaceful. Then late one night we had a phonecall from Mari: “I’m 8 months pregnant! It’s David’s child. I’m coming back to England tomorrow and I’m going to tell the world!” For some reason that I couldn’t understand, Mari told the newspapers that I knew she was having a child from the start. I accepted that the child was mine and wrote to Mari, with Linda’s approval, offering to help bring up the child with Linda if she wished, but Mari said she wanted to start a new life with the baby and wanted me to have no access. It was an extremely painful decision to make but I agreed. Many times in life we’re faced with decisions in which it’s impossible to do what is 100% right for everybody; this was one such occasion. None of this appeared in the “Icke Abandons Baby” stories that were soon to appear in the newspapers. Rebecca was born on the 14th of December and I decided not to see her because it would increase the pain of not being able to see her in the future. But then Mari asked me to go and visit her and I went. She was a gorgeous child. When I asked to see her again after that Mari strongly objected. I didn’t see Rebecca again until she appeared in a double page spread in a Sunday Newspaper. Mari eventually left the home of our healer friends and bought a house on the English mainland.

I’m not trying to put Mari in a bad light, any more than I do my father over his treatment of me (Related earlier in the book). We don’t know why certain people act towards us in certain ways. I’m just setting out the situation as I saw it from where I’m standing. It could be that we need these relationships for personal and collective reasons. I’m not judging and condemning, simply reporting how another person’s behavior affects me.

The articles the newspapers published based on Mari’s testimony was the most monumental personal attacks by one human being against another that you’re ever likely to see. It was aimed at bringing the maximum personal damage to me and Linda. I was portrayed as some kind of womanizing religious freak! It attempted to patronize Linda and make her out to be a complete idiot. Mari was using her new-found fame to try and break us up. But the article backfired amid a combination of laughter and disbelief from all who knew the truth.

(David then thanks all the people in this episode of his life for the experience they provided)

So as you can see, this paints a very different picture to the sensatinonalist tone of the recent newspaper stories on David. You only have to look at his photo on the cover of Love Changes Everything (below) to see that this was, far from her being a convenient shag on the side, this woman caused a terrible period in David's life fraught with dilemma and hurt. He was only 41 when this photo was taken but he looks almost older there than he does today! This testimony was not included by the newspaper, nor was it by Droike when he wrote: "David got his secretary up the duff!"

_________________"Lynda, you're sweet. From what I've seen of your world, do you think anybody votes for sweet?"
Doctor Who- Bad Wolf.

"Because he refused to compete in games of domination he was indomitable"
from The Dispossessed by Ursula Le Guin

Voices in David's head told him he needed to have sex with Mari for the greater good. (Admittedly, I often hear those voices too ). So after arguing with the voice, reluctantly he decides he must follow the instructionsMari moves in and becomes mistriss-zillaDavid needs her for the book, so tolerates her behaviour until the book is doneWhen the book is finished, he kicks her out (an accurate description according to his own version)David offers to take the child off MariMari refuses, David accepts

I wonder what the claimed effect on energies was. Perhaps this child is the second coming?

_________________Once I thought I knew everything. But then I realised I was wrong – I now know much more!

It's worth getting; an Icke classic! Few of his modern readers even know it exists.

Quote:

Voices in David's head told him he needed to have sex with Mari for the greater good.

Channelled information; it's similar but not quite the same as "voices in the head".

Quote:

(Admittedly, I often hear those voices too ).

Me too, but I dismiss them as sweet nothings from the Spiritworld.

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So after arguing with the voice, reluctantly he decides he must follow the instructionsMari moves in and becomes mistriss-zilla

Yes, that's acurate.

Quote:

David needs her for the book, so tolerates her behaviour until the book is done

Yes, but it wasn't just David. Linda was also invoved in the decision-making process.

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When the book is finished, he kicks her out (an accurate description according to his own version)

As I said above I wouldn't use the words "he kicks her out" because of the bagage that comes with them. But yes, he insists that she leaves the house because the job is done and he and Linda can't put up with the situation any more.

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David offers to take the child off Mari

No. He offers to help bring the child up, to be a real father to her.

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Mari refuses, David accepts

Yes, and it was the most heartbreaking decision!

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I wonder what the claimed effect on energies was. Perhaps this child is the second coming?

That one's been done before... many times!

_________________"Lynda, you're sweet. From what I've seen of your world, do you think anybody votes for sweet?"
Doctor Who- Bad Wolf.

"Because he refused to compete in games of domination he was indomitable"
from The Dispossessed by Ursula Le Guin

As I said above I wouldn't use the words "he kicks her out" because of the bagage that comes with them. But yes, he insists that she leaves the house because the job is done and he and Linda can't put up with the situation any more.

I can understand you wanting to avoid that phrase, but I genuinely can't think of that expression meaning anything more fitting than what happened there. How do you interpret "kicking someone out" if it doesn't mean pushing them to leave because you can't take any more?

Hagbard Celine wrote:

No. He offers to help bring the child up, to be a real father to her.

Ok. It was the bit that went "… to help bring up the child with Linda…" that made it sound like D&L were going to be the parents. But I'll retract that having re-read it.

I did think of an irony though. The book was called Love Changes Everything. Certainly was the case here with love changing Mari

Would be fascinating to know how Mari would describe the situation too. Guess that's something we'll never know.

_________________Once I thought I knew everything. But then I realised I was wrong – I now know much more!

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