It's unquestionably the latter to me. My mate Ally recommended it to me, and the artwork and dialogue are simply stunning in The League Of Extraordinary Gentlemen. There's so much going on at all times that your brain gets no chance to rest, though it appears when you first read it that it's going to be Moore's most face-value work

Are you on about the series in general or The Black Dossier?
The third one is so dense with ideas that it's getting panned left, right and centre but I think it just takes time to take it all in. The 'On The Road' pastiche is fucking awful though. (Although Moore himself slags it off through Mina Murray.)

Well, he's a mysoginist arsehole in the films, especially the Moore ones, but I was on about The Dossier.
The 3D glasses section is a headfuck. I'm looking forward to the last part, which should be here in 2008.

Harry Lime - "In Italy for 30 years under the Borgias they had warfare, terror, murder, and bloodshed, but they produced Michelangelo, Leonardo da Vinci, and the Renaissance. In Switzerland they had brotherly love - they had 500 years of democracy and peace, and what did that produce? The cuckoo clock."

As much as I really love The Third Man and Orson Welles I have always found the above quote to be fundamentally flawed - the Swiss also gave the world the Swiss Army knife, which has come in mighty handy to many people on many many occassions!

I agree with what M:R has to say about X-Factor devaluing the whole concept of fame, and in respone to what Alan wrote about the difference between talent shows of the past and X-Factor - the difference is that the shows of the past never claimed anything more for the performes who won than that they could get more gigs on the cabaret circuit, or could perhaps land an agent or get a few more tv gigs etc. What I find most insidious about "Pop Idol" and "Fame Academy" and shows of their ilk is that they sell to young people a myth that all it takes to become the next big pop sensation is the efforts of a manager like Cowell, and couple of months of training, and hey presto! you are an "idol". This is blatanlty bullshit, and at least it has been proved so by the fact than none of the winners of any of these shows have actually graduated beyond the cabaret circuit, with the possible exceptions of Will Young and Girls Aloud (who I think are both crap anyway). It's most despiriting for the REAL talented young musicians and performers out there trying to get a break, especially the ones who wouldn't fit into the typical mould that the producers of these shows seek. The knock on effect of the devaluing of pop is the sped up shelf life of bands nowadays - crappy bands get hyped beyond reason, and by the next album they are over. But it doesn't matter, as there is some other crappy band only too willing to take their place. No wonder kids have ADD when it comes to listening to new music!

It is rather depressing, especially if you are trying to carve out a career in the music biz, but at the same time yes it is very easy to ignore. While the majors all go belly up there really is room for an underground to flourish now, where acts can finally do it for themselves, the way they want to. It may be under the radar, but it IS out there! I fluctuate between thinking that this is the worst time for music ever, and also that it may be the best time ever, as a whole new way of how we ffind and trade music exists that I think is much more artist friendly. I dunno... all I can do is plough on in my furrow and hope that people are listening.

And yeah, anonymity is the new fame, but integrity just can't be bought!

But I agree with Alan in that I think there is also a lot of great stuff out there, it just needs to be found. All the amazing music and culture that I discover on an ongoing basis still gives me a glimmer of hope in people and the world...the difference here is that IMO a large majority of people in the world will simply accept whatever bullshit is thrown at them. They seem to have lost their ability to discern what they actually like/are interested in.

don't get me wrong, i absolutely agree that there is indeed a lot of great stuff out there. it's just that one has to wade through an ever growing stinking pile of shite to get to it.

well, in the pile of shite you get sent, i became aware of dan deacon and his craziness because you helped to put it out there. it is miles ahead of any-style driven fakery out there and makes me want to dance like i'm 7 again.

good is out there.

with more people in the world it just gets harder to winnow out what is magical.

_________________in a KARASS it doesn't matter how you look when you dance

I saw a lynx advert recently that discussed me, the ideas they give to young men about woman are down right wrong and abominable. I initially thought something should be done to stop things like this but then i thought fuck it, the arguments lost, nobody should think this is acceptable.

that is how i feel in a nutshell.
well said MC.
did anyone happen to see the poster outside that shitty club boho? a woman shot from the waist down in tarty santa get up with her knickers round her ankles?? and this is advertising a club? i simply dont know where to begin with that one.............

This is a topic I've brought up a hundred times when people start discussing big brother. Why would I want to watch this show? These people aren't interesting and don't engage me in the slightest. it's just getting cheaper than cheaper.

And for the record...I've never had an interest in X Factor. I was in a hotel room and my husband was watching it - there was sod all else on and if you want to watch something at a certain time of day, sometimes these shows entertain. When Rhydian came on, I was wonderfully surprised and impressed. A true one off. what that show SHOULD be about. The fact that a talentless, charismaless fool like Leon would win says a lot of horrendous things about the general public.

I doubt VERY much I would tune into a future series. I get excited about Corrie. Not I'm a Celebrity Get me Outta here.

I DO read the Enquirer when I'm travelling cos it entertains but doesn't engage my brain. When I'm travelling, I get too spaced out if I start reading anything too indepth. And I tend to get emotional when I listen to music and start crying and stuff....it sometimes isn't the best thing to do in public to pass the time!

It is rather depressing, especially if you are trying to carve out a career in the music biz!

I doubt lulu or cilla black wrote a lot of there own material, so producers making stars from atractive singers is a not a new phenomenon, and i dont really think that music talent is being held back by folk off the x factor. A career as a pop star has always been an extremley tought nut to crack cause so many folk want to do it, and there arent too many places available.

That's kind of missing the point of what I said though (for it is I - LR is my ID for the spam page) - of course producers will always want pretty young things to sing their songs, but before X-Factory etc talent shows were talent shows and aimed at a specific circuit - the cabarets - whereas now the myth being sold is on a much larger scale - "Pop Idol" - the clue is in the name. The knock on effect is that the entire notion of being a pop-star has become devalued. And it could be argued that telling everyone that pop stardom is like the Lotto (It could be YOU!) has crowded the market place even further and made it even harder for people to break through. That's just my 2 cents though, even though I think it would be harder than ever for a David Bowie or a Todd Rundgren to break through nowadays. I think what we're seeing is the death pangs of popular music as a life-changing force, which is sad.

Also, like Gervais says, these aren't really talent shows anymore, they're freakshows where inadequate people get sniggered at by millionaires.