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How easily could you distingish a GC1 from a C1 blind-folded? Also the same goes with the GC2 from a C2. If a GC1 and C1 sounds night and day different to you, that's one thing, but if they sound almost the same to you, then you might as well get the GC2 that's 5 inches longer and it cost less than the C1.

Your other choices are not viable. Kawai is ruled out by your teacher. Boston is made by Kawai. Essex is made in China by Pearl River and quality is not at the Yamaha GC1 or C1 level. You can buy 3 Yamaha C1 for the price of a Steinway S.

While there are lots of choices, if you rule out made in China, which is a common practice by the overseas Chinese community, and do not want to spend the big money for made in USA or Europe, then for made in Japan, you've got only Yamaha and Kawai / Boston. People say there are lots of choices, but for an overseas Chinese family there are surprisingly few. It comes down to which Yamaha you will choose beginning with the U1. I would guess that since there are more Chinese children playing piano than any other ethnic group, this may be one reason why Yamaha leads the pack.

_________________________Art is never finished, only abandoned. - da Vinci

if you rule out made in China, which is a common practice by the overseas Chinese community, and do not want to spend the big money for made in USA or Europe, then for made in Japan, you've got only Yamaha and Kawai / Boston.

This certainly used to be the case but is rapidly changing.Many Chinese are now discovering the quality of their own top makers becoming less and less reluctant to consider them.

In fact, many are very happy [and proud...] to have a 'home grown' quality at their avail without having to spend mega bucks.

The other day we sold a 7' Chinese made grand for about same as their neighbors had paid for their 5'7 something grand.

They watched during delivery, played the piano later and - were in shock.

if you rule out made in China, which is a common practice by the overseas Chinese community, and do not want to spend the big money for made in USA or Europe, then for made in Japan, you've got only Yamaha and Kawai / Boston.

This certainly used to be the case but is rapidly changing.Many Chinese are now discovering the quality of their own top makers becoming less and less reluctant to consider them.

In fact, many are very happy [and proud...] to have a 'home grown' quality at their avail without having to spend mega bucks.

The other day we sold a 7' Chinese made grand for about same as their neighbors had paid for their 5'7 something grand.

They watched during delivery, played the piano later and - were in shock.

Times *are* changing.

I predicted that long time ago...

Norbert

That national price in "home-grown" quality is of course what caused them to emigrate in the first place.

Norbert,

It's true that you've been predicting this for a long time, in fact for as long as you've been selling Chinese. But your statements about pride in home-grown products are a bulging bag of BS unless you're selling into a second and third generation population. Try meeting the emigrants at the airport as they de-plane with a vending cart of paper fans and parasols. You'll find out all you need to know about national pride.

My job has put me in close contact with thousands of Chinese emigrants since the late 70's. The restrictive conditions under which Chinese emigrants can leave the source of their national pride have improved drastically, but the fear and loathing of home-made products is just as pronounced now as it was a generation ago despite a world of difference in the products. Maybe in another generation a rational approach will temper the almost irrational extent to which the Chinese emigrant population seeks to insulate themselves from all they left behind. That would be a good thing.

Maybe in another generation a rational approach will temper the almost irrational extent to which the Chinese emigrant population seeks to insulate themselves from all they left behind. That would be a good thing.

Dealing with Chinese immigrants on an almost weekly basis, I can testify that most current immigrants don't leave "all" behind.

In many cases the husbands don't leave their jobs and keep on working in China. Nor do they sever their family ties. Kids frequently travel to China to visit family or attend colleges.

When they graduate here, many return to work there.

Current Chinese immigrants also are far from "irrational"

They know a good deal when they see one: Chinese products becoming increasingly part of their choice.

They are fully aware China becoming an economic superpower and not necessarily look at others with glee or envy any longer.

Perhaps the reason Pearl River decided in last minute to have the soon to arrive Kayserburg Artist super piano built in China instead of Germany?

It's a mixed bag with confidence in their own pianos and manufacturing slowly but steadily increasing.

Norbert,It's true that you've been predicting this for a long time, in fact for as long as you've been selling Chinese. But your statements about pride in home-grown products are a bulging bag of BS unless you're selling into a second and third generation population. Try meeting the emigrants at the airport as they de-plane with a vending cart of paper fans and parasols. You'll find out all you need to know about national pride. My job has put me in close contact with thousands of Chinese emigrants since the late 70's. The restrictive conditions under which Chinese emigrants can leave the source of their national pride have improved drastically, but the fear and loathing of home-made products is just as pronounced now as it was a generation ago despite a world of difference in the products. Maybe in another generation a rational approach will temper the almost irrational extent to which the Chinese emigrant population seeks to insulate themselves from all they left behind. That would be a good thing.In the meantime your posts on this topic are always to be savored.

Originally Posted By: Norbert

Dealing with Chinese immigrants on an almost weekly basis, I can testify that most current immigrants don't leave "all" behind.In many cases the husbands don't leave their jobs and keep on working in China. Nor do they sever their family ties. Kids frequently travel to China to visit family or attend colleges.When they graduate here, many return to work there.Current Chinese immigrants also are far from "irrational" They know a good deal when they see one: Chinese products becoming increasingly part of their choice.It's a mixed bag with confidence in their own pianos slowly but steadily increasing.That's all.Norbert

Both postings lack any facts to substantiate the claims made.So typical of this part of the forum where opinions replace actual facts.

Did you thought about Boston piano maybe?It's a mix of Steinway desing and Kawai parts, so that could be some way to go.

Maybe you should also send your father to another teacher I'am serious, teacher who only accepts Yamaha perhaps do not have idea about other comapnies or is just stubborn as person in general.There are a lot of good pianos like W.HOFFMANN (good Bechstein trademark)that I would personally took over overpriced Yamahas.

As the parent (father) is funding the purchase, the choice is his to make. While the OP resides under his roof he/she will be subject to parental decision making.

When the OP lives independently then purchase decisions can be made independently.

I am not actually sure why there is an attempt by the OP to insinuate him or herself into the purchase equation. Also not sure why there is content here from the OP labelling one of his parents biased and stupid. It seems to me the intolerance of the father has been well learned by the off-spring.

Good musicians play whatever instrument is placed before them. Poor musicians make excuses and blame the equipment.

Maybe you should also send your father to another teacher I'am serious, teacher who only accepts Yamaha perhaps do not have idea about other comapnies or is just stubborn as person in general.There are a lot of good pianos like W.HOFFMANN (good Bechstein trademark)that I would personally took over overpriced Yamahas.

One other possibility is that the teacher is being paid a commission by the local Ymaha dealership. It is not at all uncommon (and certainly not limited to Yamaha dealers).

You might suggest that he read a relatively unbiased publication...Piano Buyer. It may open him to other possibilities.

As the parent (father) is funding the purchase, the choice is his to make. While the OP resides under his roof he/she will be subject to parental decision making.

When the OP lives independently then purchase decisions can be made independently.

I am not actually sure why there is an attempt by the OP to insinuate him or herself into the purchase equation. Also not sure why there is content here from the OP labelling one of his parents biased and stupid. It seems to me the intolerance of the father has been well learned by the off-spring.

Good musicians play whatever instrument is placed before them. Poor musicians make excuses and blame the equipment.

The choice for that part lies with the OP.

I would agree with you, BUT....

As I understand from the topic, the man who is spending money doesen't know anything about pianos and rely on opinion of one teacher that "X company is the best and the rest is not worth" and is treating this as his final and best statement.

It's not the way a piano on which somebody else will be playing should be bought. This is kinda like your father would choose a wife for you without asking do you like her or not...

All we need to do, I think, is do some education.Yamaha is excellent about their marketing and dozens of systems in pianos, but the point that systems doesn't play.

Maybe he should go with his father to big piano store and play on some other brands and speak with seller or technicians?

BTW, one I found comparison of 10k Samick piano and Yamaha GB (or something like this, the cheapest grand from them) and Yamaha did so many saving even on hammers that a lot chepaer Samick won the test easily. So, in my opinion, while buying cheap pianos doesn't mean that well known brand will be much better than Korean ar any other.

And, when people are educated, they have more fun with choosing the instrument, seeing and hearing the differences and enjoying playing on different kind of instruments.

Vancouver-Surrey Chinese are wealthier than anywhere else in North America.People immigrate to Canada/States for different reason.

Steven,

Could you elaborate on that? I'm trying to get a mental fix on th type of consumer Norbert is describing -- the one who welcomes Chinese products into his home and takes pride in their origin. For example, he mentions students. Chinese nationals in the US for study enter via student visas. They may well be from wealthy families, but it would be highly unusual for them to acquire a grand piano during a student stay for the obvious reason that their stay here is conditional upon remaining a student. Also student life and grand pianos don't mix. Chinese worker fathers who are in the US for job reasons and have left the family behind are generally here by means of work visas which are controlled in part by their employers. Their stay here is based on their employers' posting them here. Generally, they do not acquire expensive pianos during their stay, particularly Chinese ones.

Truly wealthy Chinese can literally buy their way into permanent residency in the US by showing assets that prove conclusively that they will not become welfare clients during their stay. But even in that instance, in my experience resistance to Chinese goods is high, and attraction to goods from elsewhere that are perceived to be of higher prestige and quality is equally high. I'm not endorsing that repulsion and attraction. It's just what I've noticed in my own experience. It doesn't come from any sort of objective evaluation, simply from a distaste.

I'm not up to speed on Canadian immigration and I have no idea why Chiense immigrants would enter Canada for different reasons that they enter California, but I would like to learn about it.

Most ignorant post I have read on PianoWorld so far. Maybe if you open your mind a little you will understand a bit more. I bet you think all Blacks are criminals and Asians only know how to copy others. What else are you ignorant of?

Originally Posted By: turandot

Steven,

Could you elaborate on that? I'm trying to get a mental fix on th type of consumer Norbert is describing -- the one who welcomes Chinese products into his home and takes pride in their origin. For example, he mentions students. Chinese nationals in the US for study enter via student visas. They may well be from wealthy families, but it would be highly unusual for them to acquire a grand piano during a student stay for the obvious reason that their stay here is conditional upon remaining a student. Also student life and grand pianos don't mix. Chinese worker fathers who are in the US for job reasons and have left the family behind are generally here by means of work visas which are controlled in part by their employers. Their stay here is based on their employers' posting them here. Generally, they do not acquire expensive pianos during their stay, particularly Chinese ones.

Truly wealthy Chinese can literally buy their way into permanent residency in the US by showing assets that prove conclusively that they will not become welfare clients during their stay. But even in that instance, in my experience resistance to Chinese goods is high, and attraction to goods from elsewhere that are perceived to be of higher prestige and quality is equally high. I'm not endorsing that repulsion and attraction. It's just what I've noticed in my own experience. It doesn't come from any sort of objective evaluation, simply from a distaste.

I'm not up to speed on Canadian immigration and I have no idea why Chiense immigrants would enter Canada for different reasons that they enter California, but I would like to learn about it.

No, I'm not ignorant. You have no idea what it's like to deal with my dad and trust me, however stupid and un-human this may sound the way he just "brushes" off people that he think are irrelevant makes you want to throw a shoe at him. The way he thinks he can control all family matters and child futures is infuriating. He was the one who demolished my sisters dream and I'm pretty sure you have no idea how that feels.

By all means, I do know I am a spoiled child in this matter. I understand that there are many people in this world who cannot afford even a Yamaha B1. But the difference is that I am not them, my dad CAN afford it and he knows how important piano is to me. I enjoy music and everything about the piano.

I hope you understand that you may think I'm a spoiled, stubborn child that has been rubbed off of by his parent. But I think it is to soon for you to judge who or what I am.You know litle about me and nothing about my family history. So please don't make rash assumptions like that about me again.

I am sorry about this message, I just don't like it when people judge me to soon.

Many Chinese are now discovering the quality of their own top makers becoming less and less reluctant to consider them.

In fact, many are very happy [and proud...] to have a 'home grown' quality at their avail without having to spend mega bucks.

The other day we sold a 7' Chinese made grand for about same as their neighbors had paid for their 5'7 something grand.

They watched during delivery, played the piano later and - were in shock.

Times *are* changing.

I predicted that long time ago...

Norbert

Norbert,

On Feb. 20th of this year, I received an e-mail from a piano retailer in Surrey, BC commenting on the market reception for his Chinese pianos. There was no request for confidentiality from the sender. The e-mail came from his store account to my personal e-mai accountl. The retailer purported to be you. Here is his comment:

"Personally I start loosing interest in the Ritmueller-Brodmann crowd, prices are never low enough and its becoming a pissing contest. [white or non-Chinese crowd mostly…"

I had not requested the information. I did however reply with a commentt that the sender should resolve the differences between that comment and his frequent public pronouncements that Chinese immigrants were embracing their home country's piano products. The sender did not reply.

I'd like to repeat that suggestion. I'd also like you to come to a realization that generations of Chinese emigrants who made their home in Canada decades ago should be properly referred to as Canadians, not as immigrants. That does not mean that they devalue their cultural heritage. It simply puts them on equal footing with other Canadiann citizens, including you.

"...Just count your blessings. If my parents were buying me a piano, I would take whatever brand they insist on and not argue...."

Well, Jason, I might argue harder in your behalf, if by luck or what-have-you (bribed teacher testimony, pig-headed prejudice--- who knows, it could be anything; it could be his horoscope), anyway, if by bad luck your dad had gotten his mind set on a really bad piano. But, that is not the case; your luck is good. I'm sorry about your sister, I can see that what happened hurts you. It may be of slight consolation that since I am old-and-wore-out, I have found out that life is a lot longer than I imagined when I was young, as you are. It may not be too late for your sister to find her dream again (these things are very strong). And in the end, you may have the piano that you long for.

If you can be patient for a few years with your dad's gift, maybe you will have something of value to trade in, which will help you move up the piano food chain. That is how most of us do it. If you work it right, you will make your dad proud that your accomplishments have let you outgrow this very nice and generous gift. By the time you move up, you will have also had time to persuade him that you know a lot about pianos--- as well as a lot about playing.

More love and appreciation--- these make a person open up. Less fighting--- it makes people afraid, and closes their goodwill toward you.

By all means, I do know I am a spoiled child in this matter. I understand that there are many people in this world who cannot afford even a Yamaha B1. But the difference is that I am not them, my dad CAN afford it and he knows how important piano is to me. I enjoy music and everything about the piano.

Jason, you should focus on the music that you love, and the fact that your father, however narrow minded he seems, must also love you, or he would not be buying a grand piano. So in the end, don't worry about the small things. They don't matter. While you are in shopping mode, small differences between models and brands seem like a canyon, but once at home and you have that new piano smell, when you focus on the music itself, none of it matters.

Work with your dad, and keep us posted which piano you end up with; and post pictures.

_________________________Art is never finished, only abandoned. - da Vinci

To publish a pm is really something else and I thought Turandot as long time writer would be somewhat above that.

What he forget to say is that mine were simple responses to his many [unsolicited] mails to me, perhaps in an effort to at least have one friendly supporter remaining on site.

Having said that, the whole thread gives evidence of how things start to become contested "for just pennies" out there.

Those who [still] believe I'm here to fight it out for Chinese makers better be left in that illusion.

Fact is is that when you move up the ranks into more expensive, more "special" pianos, things do change a little bit.

Longer smiles and better players too. Nobody ego-ridden,wanting to "fight it out to the end", argumentative even when there's no argument, publishing pm's or doing other nasty stuff. The only frustration or question asked: "when does piano arrive?"