Think of this as a hypothetical. If we were going into the physical world, there'd be one thing we'd need to consider: what we mean by "exists". Does it exist as an idea, or as an actual living entity? If the latter, then this discussion is relevant. If the former, then there's several ways to do it, though only the slowest methods are ethically viable: brainwashing, killing everyone who holds the idea or has ever heard of the idea (id est: everyone who is over 4 years old and was raised by a theist, became a theist, or was raised by an atheist who exposed them to religion), education, improving lifestyles... There's probably more, but I can't recall them at the moment.

Hiya One Above All.

I've taken the OP's "As the title says, if he exists, can Biblegod be destroyed?" to mean exist as in "have an object reality" and, since the biblical idea of God is that he lives, he would fall into your second category of being "an actual living entity". So, yes, the discussion is relevant or, at least, coherent. How relevant anyone finds the question would be up for debate (not that I'm suggesting we do start debating that!).

I realize that your answer is no. I realize that you are saying that god cannot be destroyed. I'm trying to figure out why that's your answer, and saying that god cannot be made to not exist (i.e. destroyed) because god cannot be made to not exist (i.e. destroyed) doesn't explain a whole lot.

"I don't know" is a fine answer BTW. Certainly if it's true.

Yes, that's OK. The OP was about the God of the bible though. Shall we leave it at the God of the bible being defined in such a way as to not be contingent if he exists. Otherwise, its like debating why a square has four sides.

You need to understand that you're essentially saying that god can't be destroyed because god can't be destroyed. It's a little different than debating why a square has four sides. That debate can actually happen - we can go over the history of the evolution of linguistics and mathematics and come up with an explanation for why we label 4-sided geometric objects with each side of equal length 'square'. It's a little different than debating why we would call some object present in reality a square - we can talk about the observations of that object, measurements of sides, and the relationship between the things that we observe and various labels that we have the may or may not apply to said object (i.e. square, triangle, purple tentacle, etc.).

The only way it's the same as 'debating why a square has four sides' is if we all agree that we're just talking about definitions and labels, and not talking about something that exists in reality. But then, we can't really talk about anything like 'existence' without making the debate incoherent.

Ron is essentially looking for what the explanatory mechanism is for the property of "cannot be destroyed" or "cannot not exist".

Yes, I see your point. However, one of the properties of the biblical God is that he is not contingent, that he cannot not exist. Whether the biblical God exists is an entirely separate matter, but the OP said, "As the title says, if he exists, can Biblegod be destroyed?". If he does exist, then he can't be destroyed. As you seem to suggest, that comes from the definition (or, at least, the description) used in the OP.

I think I see what you're saying BD. The YHWH character in the bible cannot not exist according to the story in the bible. That is an attribute of the character, as being large and hairy is an attribute of Chewbacca from Star Wars. Although as I've pointed out, he himself says there is nothing that we humans cannot do.

So perhaps the real way to destroy him is just show that he is imaginary.

I think I see what you're saying BD. The YHWH character in the bible cannot not exist according to the story in the bible. That is an attribute of the character, as being large and hairy is an attribute of Chewbacca from Star Wars.

As are attributes of real persons like yourself. You have two eyes (I hope). How does such a comparison help in this discussion?

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Although as I've pointed out, he himself says there is nothing that we humans cannot do.

Eh? Sorry, I'm new here. Where have you said he says that, please?

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So perhaps the real way to destroy him is just show that he is imaginary.

That would be destroying the idea of him, which was not what the OP was about.

5 But the Lord came down to see the city and the tower the people were building. 6 The Lord said, ‘If as one people speaking the same language they have begun to do this, then nothing they plan to do will be impossible for them.

I think I see what you're saying BD. The YHWH character in the bible cannot not exist according to the story in the bible. That is an attribute of the character, as being large and hairy is an attribute of Chewbacca from Star Wars.

As are attributes of real persons like yourself. You have two eyes (I hope). How does such a comparison help in this discussion?

No, being indestructible no matter what are not attributes of a real person. No sentient being has ever displayed that property, that has only occurred in story, myth and legend.

5 But the Lord came down to see the city and the tower the people were building. 6 The Lord said, ‘If as one people speaking the same language they have begun to do this, then nothing they plan to do will be impossible for them.

So, literally anything? Stuff like being able to exist and not exist at the same time? Grow an extra head? Believe in God and be an atheist? Go back in time?

Is there not an unwritten assumption that the Lord here is speaking about stuff that humans are potentially able to do, but which they so often don't?

I think I see what you're saying BD. The YHWH character in the bible cannot not exist according to the story in the bible. That is an attribute of the character, as being large and hairy is an attribute of Chewbacca from Star Wars.

As are attributes of real persons like yourself. You have two eyes (I hope). How does such a comparison help in this discussion?

No, being indestructible no matter what are not attributes of a real person. No sentient being has ever displayed that property, that has only occurred in story, myth and legend.

Being indestructible is not something which helps define a person. If a person were indestructible that would exclude them from being a human being, but not a person surely.

5 But the Lord came down to see the city and the tower the people were building. 6 The Lord said, ‘If as one people speaking the same language they have begun to do this, then nothing they plan to do will be impossible for them.

So, literally anything? Stuff like being able to exist and not exist at the same time? Grow an extra head? Believe in God and be an atheist? Go back in time?

Is there not an unwritten assumption that the Lord here is speaking about stuff that humans are potentially able to do, but which they so often don't?

Yes, literally anything. Use technology to project an image of ourselves onto the other side of the planet, use medical technology to grow another head, believe in Biblegod but not Zeus, go back in time. And of course kill YHWH. This is the reason he was so terrified of us. Otherwise he'd have said 'Many things will be possible for them.'

5 But the Lord came down to see the city and the tower the people were building. 6 The Lord said, ‘If as one people speaking the same language they have begun to do this, then nothing they plan to do will be impossible for them.

So, literally anything? Stuff like being able to exist and not exist at the same time? Grow an extra head? Believe in God and be an atheist? Go back in time?

Is there not an unwritten assumption that the Lord here is speaking about stuff that humans are potentially able to do, but which they so often don't?

Note as well YHWH's actual words; "nothing they plan to do will be impossible for them." Anything we plan to do, we can do.

5 But the Lord came down to see the city and the tower the people were building. 6 The Lord said, ‘If as one people speaking the same language they have begun to do this, then nothing they plan to do will be impossible for them.

So, literally anything? Stuff like being able to exist and not exist at the same time? Grow an extra head? Believe in God and be an atheist? Go back in time?

Is there not an unwritten assumption that the Lord here is speaking about stuff that humans are potentially able to do, but which they so often don't?

Yes, literally anything. Use technology to project an image of ourselves onto the other side of the planet, use medical technology to grow another head, believe in Biblegod but not Zeus, go back in time. And of course kill YHWH. This is the reason he was so terrified of us. Otherwise he'd have said 'Many things will be possible for them.'

So, if someone said to you, that if you pay $XYZ for a special, one-off ticket to Disneyland, you will be able to do anything you like, would you take that to mean that you will be able to "Use technology to project an image of ourselves onto the other side of the planet, use medical technology to grow another head, believe in Biblegod but not Zeus, go back in time. And of course kill YHWH?"If I go to a restaurant for a friend's birthday celebration, look at the menu and am told, "You can have anything you like.", does that mean I can have world peace, a holiday in New Zealand, as much food for the rest of my life without putting on any weight and eternal life?If a detainee is threatened with torture unless he divulges the whereabouts of Mr A. and replies, "You can do anything you like, but I'm not telling you.", does that mean he is giving the torturer permission to invade Crimea, develop nuclear power in Iran, give Scotland independence and buy Norwich City football club?

5 But the Lord came down to see the city and the tower the people were building. 6 The Lord said, ‘If as one people speaking the same language they have begun to do this, then nothing they plan to do will be impossible for them.

So, literally anything? Stuff like being able to exist and not exist at the same time? Grow an extra head? Believe in God and be an atheist? Go back in time?

Is there not an unwritten assumption that the Lord here is speaking about stuff that humans are potentially able to do, but which they so often don't?

Yes, literally anything. Use technology to project an image of ourselves onto the other side of the planet, use medical technology to grow another head, believe in Biblegod but not Zeus, go back in time. And of course kill YHWH. This is the reason he was so terrified of us. Otherwise he'd have said 'Many things will be possible for them.'

So, if someone said to you, that if you pay $XYZ for a special, one-off ticket to Disneyland, you will be able to do anything you like, would you take that to mean that you will be able to "Use technology to project an image of ourselves onto the other side of the planet, use medical technology to grow another head, believe in Biblegod but not Zeus, go back in time. And of course kill YHWH?"If I go to a restaurant for a friend's birthday celebration, look at the menu and am told, "You can have anything you like.", does that mean I can have world peace, a holiday in New Zealand, as much food for the rest of my life without putting on any weight and eternal life?If a detainee is threatened with torture unless he divulges the whereabouts of Mr A. and replies, "You can do anything you like, but I'm not telling you.", does that mean he is giving the torturer permission to invade Crimea, develop nuclear power in Iran, give Scotland independence and buy Norwich City football club?

Don't you think context is important?

The context is there in Genesis - the god HIMSELF said 'we can do anything'. The context is human beings building a technology that YHWH is terrified of. YHWH is quite clearly afraid we will become better than him and he sees this as a threat. If YHWH feels threatened it is because he knows we can hurt him or perhaps kill him.The context quite clearly is human beings creating technology that will allow us to do anything.

5 But the Lord came down to see the city and the tower the people were building. 6 The Lord said, ‘If as one people speaking the same language they have begun to do this, then nothing they plan to do will be impossible for them.

So, literally anything? Stuff like being able to exist and not exist at the same time? Grow an extra head? Believe in God and be an atheist? Go back in time?

Is there not an unwritten assumption that the Lord here is speaking about stuff that humans are potentially able to do, but which they so often don't?

Yes, literally anything. Use technology to project an image of ourselves onto the other side of the planet, use medical technology to grow another head, believe in Biblegod but not Zeus, go back in time. And of course kill YHWH. This is the reason he was so terrified of us. Otherwise he'd have said 'Many things will be possible for them.'

So, if someone said to you, that if you pay $XYZ for a special, one-off ticket to Disneyland, you will be able to do anything you like, would you take that to mean that you will be able to "Use technology to project an image of ourselves onto the other side of the planet, use medical technology to grow another head, believe in Biblegod but not Zeus, go back in time. And of course kill YHWH?"If I go to a restaurant for a friend's birthday celebration, look at the menu and am told, "You can have anything you like.", does that mean I can have world peace, a holiday in New Zealand, as much food for the rest of my life without putting on any weight and eternal life?If a detainee is threatened with torture unless he divulges the whereabouts of Mr A. and replies, "You can do anything you like, but I'm not telling you.", does that mean he is giving the torturer permission to invade Crimea, develop nuclear power in Iran, give Scotland independence and buy Norwich City football club?

Don't you think context is important?

The context is there in Genesis - the god HIMSELF said 'we can do anything'. The context is human beings building a technology that YHWH is terrified of. YHWH is quite clearly afraid we will become better than him and he sees this as a threat. If YHWH feels threatened it is because he knows we can hurt him or perhaps kill him.The context quite clearly is human beings creating technology that will allow us to do anything.

5 But the Lord came down to see the city and the tower the people were building. 6 The Lord said, ‘If as one people speaking the same language they have begun to do this, then nothing they plan to do will be impossible for them.

So, literally anything? Stuff like being able to exist and not exist at the same time? Grow an extra head? Believe in God and be an atheist? Go back in time?

Is there not an unwritten assumption that the Lord here is speaking about stuff that humans are potentially able to do, but which they so often don't?

Yes, literally anything. Use technology to project an image of ourselves onto the other side of the planet, use medical technology to grow another head, believe in Biblegod but not Zeus, go back in time. And of course kill YHWH. This is the reason he was so terrified of us. Otherwise he'd have said 'Many things will be possible for them.'

So, if someone said to you, that if you pay $XYZ for a special, one-off ticket to Disneyland, you will be able to do anything you like, would you take that to mean that you will be able to "Use technology to project an image of ourselves onto the other side of the planet, use medical technology to grow another head, believe in Biblegod but not Zeus, go back in time. And of course kill YHWH?"If I go to a restaurant for a friend's birthday celebration, look at the menu and am told, "You can have anything you like.", does that mean I can have world peace, a holiday in New Zealand, as much food for the rest of my life without putting on any weight and eternal life?If a detainee is threatened with torture unless he divulges the whereabouts of Mr A. and replies, "You can do anything you like, but I'm not telling you.", does that mean he is giving the torturer permission to invade Crimea, develop nuclear power in Iran, give Scotland independence and buy Norwich City football club?

Don't you think context is important?

The context is there in Genesis - the god HIMSELF said 'we can do anything'. The context is human beings building a technology that YHWH is terrified of. YHWH is quite clearly afraid we will become better than him and he sees this as a threat. If YHWH feels threatened it is because he knows we can hurt him or perhaps kill him.The context quite clearly is human beings creating technology that will allow us to do anything.

The context is there in Genesis - the god HIMSELF said 'we can do anything'. The context is human beings building a technology that YHWH is terrified of. YHWH is quite clearly afraid we will become better than him and he sees this as a threat. If YHWH feels threatened it is because he knows we can hurt him or perhaps kill him.The context quite clearly is human beings creating technology that will allow us to do anything.

No. It is definitely in the Bible, not in us. That the Almighty creator of the universe cannot make himself clear is scandalous. He wants us to do something yet chooses Iron Age peasants redolent with superstition to be His messengers. And then He has the cheek to blame us! And there you are siding with him like a hypocrit!

You are C of E, not Mormon, Muslim, or a papist minion of the Antichrist, You know what He means whatever He says, don't you? Dear Lord! If only everyone could understand God the way you do!

Do those idiots not see that you have the only perfect decoding ring and know exactly what He means?

Black Dwarf, your solipsism is showing... : )

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Nobody says “There are many things that we thought were natural processes, but now know that a god did them.”

Yes, I see your point. However, one of the properties of the biblical God is that he is not contingent, that he cannot not exist. Whether the biblical God exists is an entirely separate matter, but the OP said, "As the title says, if he exists, can Biblegod be destroyed?". If he does exist, then he can't be destroyed. As you seem to suggest, that comes from the definition (or, at least, the description) used in the OP.

Having god unable to not not exist makes a nonsense of the hypothetical "if god exists", because this leaves the door open for god not existing. The two positions cancel each other out.

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Christian: "My faith grows every day."Atheist: "So does rhubarb, and for the same reason."

I can sort of see where BD is coming from here. If we're talking about how to destroy YHWH then it sounds like we've accepted he exists and he is the god depicted in the bible for this particular debate. If we're talking about how to kill Superman then we have to play by the rules in Superman's universe. However as we've discovered in the debate, the rules of YHWH's universe contradict each other.

I've taken the OP's "As the title says, if he exists, can Biblegod be destroyed?" to mean exist as in "have an object reality" and, since the biblical idea of God is that he lives, he would fall into your second category of being "an actual living entity". So, yes, the discussion is relevant or, at least, coherent.

That's still ambiguous (your definition hinges on the definition of "reality", which is just another way to say it hinges on the definition of "real"), but I understand (or at least I think I do) what you mean.

How relevant anyone finds the question would be up for debate (not that I'm suggesting we do start debating that!).

I have an idea! Let's start debating that, as per your suggestion!Seriously though, this may be relevant when christians claim their god is invincible/indestructible. I've already pointed out the iron chariots thing. That's one of many weaknesses YHWH demonstrates in the Bible.

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My names are many, yet I am One.-Orion, son of Fire and Light, Sol Invictus.

some skepisms, 1. "I have not seen God. I have felt the invisible presence"2. What if there is a rock in the middle of a road, a blind person is speeding towards it, ...they say that they can't see it. Would you recommend him to keep speeding?

Self Projection As God. Basically when theists say something like "Well, my god doesn't hate *insert group here*!" when their holy book says otherwise. They're creating a god in their own image. They're SPAGing.

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My names are many, yet I am One.-Orion, son of Fire and Light, Sol Invictus.

I'm new here, but I understood the OP to mean the God of the bible. If that is so and he does exist then he can't be destroyed, because he cannot not exist. If there was a God who could be destroyed, it wouldn't be the God of the bible.

Not necessarily (pardon the pun ). What is "the Bible?" It is a collection of books purported to be a revelation from a god (Yahweh). Even if the god himself exists, it does not logically follow that all of the claims made in his promotional literature are true. That one of those claims is "Everything in this collection of promotional literature is true!" does not necessarily make it so. In other words: it is logically possible for a god to exist, yet lie or make exaggerated claims about its power, or for humans (perhaps well-intentioned but misguided, or just mistaken) to make such claims on its behalf. A political candidate saying "Hi, I'm Congressman Munchhausen, and I approve this message" does not prove that everything in the campaign ad is true.

For evidence from the Bible that Yahweh's alleged claims to things like omnipotence or philosophical "necessity" are hyperbole or exaggeration (or perhaps incorrect interpretations of the text), I refer you to this post.

The Bible goes so far as to state unequivocally that we did kill Yahweh, even if he did respawn a couple days later. Does the phrase, "Jesus died for your sins" sound familiar? Either this is true--and for awhile there were only two Persons in the Trinity--or it isn't, in which case the "salvation plan" of Christianity is false anyway.

If there's one thing that the Bible makes absolutely clear from beginning to end, it's that Yahweh really. Really. Really. Needs human worship and obedience. If such things are not forthcoming, he is consistently and universally portrayed behaving just like a cornered and starving animal facing an existential threat to its survival.

Which means we can kill Yahweh exactly the way we killed Zeus: by ceasing to worship and obey him, and putting his stories in the Mythology section of our libraries and bookstores.

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"The question of whether atheists are, you know, right, typically gets sidestepped in favor of what is apparently the much more compelling question of whether atheists are jerks."

Self Projection As God. Basically when theists say something like "Well, my god doesn't hate *insert group here*!" when their holy book says otherwise. They're creating a god in their own image. They're SPAGing.

thanks info, appreciate it, can you provide a link to a page that has the yahew/YHWH symbols and name.

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some skepisms, 1. "I have not seen God. I have felt the invisible presence"2. What if there is a rock in the middle of a road, a blind person is speeding towards it, ...they say that they can't see it. Would you recommend him to keep speeding?

No. It is definitely in the Bible, not in us. That the Almighty creator of the universe cannot make himself clear is scandalous.

Or that we won't listen is scandalous.

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He wants us to do something yet chooses Iron Age peasants redolent with superstition to be His messengers. And then He has the cheek to blame us!

And if he had revealed himself to Iron Age peasants there would be people complaining about that.[/quote]And there you are siding with him like a hypocrit![/quote]Are you saying you don't understand the basics of what the bible teaches? Even Iron Age peasants could work that out.

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You are C of E, not Mormon, Muslim, or a papist minion of the Antichrist, You know what He means whatever He says, don't you? Dear Lord! If only everyone could understand God the way you do!

Please look up the Wikipedia article on straw man fallacy.

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Do those idiots not see that you have the only perfect decoding ring and know exactly what He means?

Yes, I see your point. However, one of the properties of the biblical God is that he is not contingent, that he cannot not exist. Whether the biblical God exists is an entirely separate matter, but the OP said, "As the title says, if he exists, can Biblegod be destroyed?". If he does exist, then he can't be destroyed. As you seem to suggest, that comes from the definition (or, at least, the description) used in the OP.

Having god unable to not not exist makes a nonsense of the hypothetical "if god exists", because this leaves the door open for god not existing. The two positions cancel each other out.

No, they don't. You seem to have misunderstood what is being said. If God does exist it means he can't not exist. If he doesn't exist then, well, he doesn't exist.