We have known we exist since the year dot, and that isn't down to some scientific discovery. Perhaps you can join hands with brother Psyche 101, and chant the Hawking mantra, that the laws of physics allow the universe to arise spontaneously from nothing at all, but Oh Lord, we have a problem, how did those laws of physics arise ? One sees that it is an insoluble problem, if you deem it to be a problem, using the faculty of reason. Not that I am saying for one second, that mythic "explanations" of any religion, are any more useful, they aren't, but to the modern mindset, "laws of physics" is a more convincing sounding "reason" than "God", for many people, but of course it is similarly impotent. So the smart choice is either to quit worrying about it, or use that other faculty of the mind, that the mystics insist is the only way. Reason won't help, as indispensable as it otherwise is.

In other words...forget discovering the actual truth of a thing...give in to magical thinking...the way to enlightenment.

The truth really isn't hard...overcoming fear is hard.

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danydandan 13,851

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" I assure you that there is a whole world outside of the boundary of your own ignorance. " Podo 2018.

Religion/spirituality exist as a coping mechanism for facing the harshness of life.

And yet, when things get "harsh", many desert their professed faith. In that case, they must have been thinking they were investing in some kind of insurance, but it didn't work as hoped, so, no more "premium payments" from them ( and in the case of "tithes", literally so). Such people don't impress me so much. They surely know **** happens, but they wanted it to happen someone else !

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XenoFish 98,128

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And yet, when things get "harsh", many desert their professed faith. In that case, they must have been thinking they were investing in some kind of insurance, but it didn't work as hoped, so, no more "premium payments" from them ( and in the case of "tithes", literally so). Such people don't impress me so much. They surely know **** happens, but they wanted it to happen someone else !

Life doesn't care what anyone believes.

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Will do 5,792

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"Of all human knowledge, that which is of greatest value is to know the religious life of Jesus and how he lived it."

Havona,the central universe, is not a time creation; it is an eternal existence. This never-beginning, never-ending universe consists of one billion spheres of sublime perfection and is surrounded by the enormous dark gravity bodies. [Which is why we can't see into the center of the universe from here with a telescope.] At the center of Havona is the stationary and absolutely stabilized Isle of Paradise, surrounded by its twenty-one satellites. Owing to the enormous encircling masses of the dark gravity bodies about the fringe of the central universe, the mass content of this central creation is far in excess of the total known mass of all seven sectors of the grand universe.

And this is what it says about Urantia relative to the center of the universe.

Your world, Urantia, is one of many similar inhabited planets which comprise the local universe ofNebadon.This universe, together with similar creations, makes up the superuniverse ofOrvonton,from whose capital, Uversa, our commission hails. Orvonton is one of the seven evolutionary superuniverses of time and space which circle the never-beginning, never-ending creation of divine perfection—the central universe ofHavona.At the heart of this eternal and central universe is the stationary Isle of Paradise, the geographic center of infinity and the dwelling place of the eternal God.

And no Dany, I don't believe because of the Urantia Book. What it says or doesn't say.

Like you, I just want to believe God. Believe despite everything else, because fundamentally, I can't think of a reason not to.

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joc 17,095

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No joc, we don't abandon science because we don't like it, we abandon it when it runs out of utility, and for the purpose under discussion, it is not the vehicle for the job.

Actually, it is the only vehicle for the job. We know the speed of light. It is not up for discussion. We know distances between stars. We know what the stars and other planets are made of. We know the Universe isn't static but is expanding. We know that the Universe works in a certain way...regardless of distance, separation, it all works according to certain 'laws'. We know how old the Earth is. We know how the Earth was formed. This is all science Habitat.

And then we have religion. Religion tells us that an invisible Entity spoke and the Universe came into existence. Religion never tells us where or how the Entity came into being. Science asks questions like that....religion does not.

Surely you are aware that many otherwise intelligent people actually believe the Earth is 6000 years old? Based on nothing but a time line of begats from the Mythical Adam to the Mythical Jesus. They believe that men used to live hundreds of years....and science is not a vehicle to display this irrational and just plain idiotic belief?

And then you must also be aware that many people attempt to change the stories of the Bible to 'fit' the known data. They say things such as, Well, you know, we obviously evolved but it was God who set evolution into being...and nonsensical things like that.

Religion changes from day to day to fit known fears, to fit known data, to fit the finicky. It needs money...and lots of it...to survive. Science is really just finding real answers to real questions...the speed of light doesn't change...the atomic elements don't change...see what I mean?

Edited October 9, 2018 by joc

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joc 17,095

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Havona,the central universe, is not a time creation; it is an eternal existence. This never-beginning, never-ending universe consists of one billion spheres of sublime perfection and is surrounded by the enormous dark gravity bodies.[Which is why we can't see into the center of the universe from here with a telescope.] At the center of Havona is the stationary and absolutely stabilized Isle of Paradise, surrounded by its twenty-one satellites. Owing to the enormous encircling masses of the dark gravity bodies about the fringe of the central universe, the mass content of this central creation is far in excess of the total known mass of all seven sectors of the grand universe.

And this is what it says about Urantia relative to the center of the universe.

Your world, Urantia, is one of many similar inhabited planets which comprise the local universe ofNebadon.This universe, together with similar creations, makes up the superuniverse ofOrvonton,from whose capital, Uversa, our commission hails. Orvonton is one of the seven evolutionary superuniverses of time and space which circle the never-beginning, never-ending creation of divine perfection—the central universe ofHavona.At the heart of this eternal and central universe is the stationary Isle of Paradise, the geographic center of infinity and the dwelling place of the eternal God.

And no Dany, I don't believe because of the Urantia Book. What it says or doesn't say.

Like you, I just want to believe God. Believe despite everything else, because fundamentally, I can't think of a reason not to.

The Universe is made up of TRILLIONS UPON TRILLIONS OF GALAXIES! Trillions of Galaxies Will...Each Galaxy consisting of billions upon billions of stars. Each star light years away from every other star.

Isn't that fascinating enough?

Why can you not accept the truth of Scientific Fact over the marvels of anonymous writings spouting absolutely nonconfirmable nonsense??

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Habitat 8,564

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The real mystery, most familiar and at the same time most unfamiliar to every man, into which he must be initiated or perish as an atheist, is himself

Actually, it is the only vehicle for the job. We know the speed of light. It is not up for discussion. We know distances between stars. We know what the stars and other planets are made of. We know the Universe isn't static but is expanding. We know that the Universe works in a certain way...regardless of distance, separation, it all works according to certain 'laws'. We know how old the Earth is. We know how the Earth was formed. This is all science Habitat.

And then we have religion. Religion tells us that an invisible Entity spoke and the Universe came into existence. Religion never tells us where or how the Entity came into being. Science asks questions like that....religion does not.

Surely you are aware that many otherwise intelligent people actually believe the Earth is 6000 years old? Based on nothing but a time line of begats from the Mythical Adam to the Mythical Jesus. They believe that men used to live hundreds of years....and science is not a vehicle to display this irrational and just plain idiotic belief?

And then you must also be aware that many people attempt to change the stories of the Bible to 'fit' the know data. They say things such as, Well, you know, we obviously evolved but it was God who set evolution into being...and nonsensical things like that.

Religion changes from day to day to fit known fears, to fit known data, to fit the finicky. It needs money...and lots of it...to survive. Science is really just finding real answers to real questions...the speed of light doesn't change...the atomic elements don't change...see what I mean?

joc, give yourself an uppercut, knock a bit of sense into yourself, I do not promote the bible , I don't peddle creation myths, I merely point out what has been known to intelligent people for millenia, that reason ultimately fails to explain why The Big Show exists, and never will. But there is a way to fix that little problem, and it starts with you looking into yourself, after all, looking outside doesn't do the job, and slowly chipping away at all those little vanities and internal falsehoods that are clogging up the perceptive works. But it can be a very long process.

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Will do 5,792

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"Of all human knowledge, that which is of greatest value is to know the religious life of Jesus and how he lived it."

The Universe is made up of TRILLIONS UPON TRILLIONS OF GALAXIES! Trillions of Galaxies Will...Each Galaxy consisting of billions upon billions of stars. Each star light years away from every other star.

Isn't that fascinating enough?

Why can you not accept the truth of Scientific Fact over the marvels of anonymous writings spouting absolutely nonconfirmable nonsense??

I do joc. I accept all fact. You're right. There are trillions and trillions. But according to what you highlighted in red, the central perfect universe that's cloaked by enourmous dark gravity bodies that are circling in between the central universe and the part of the universe where we live, there are only one billion spheres of sublime perfection.

The central part of the universe is an entirely different place than where we live because it's perfect and eternal, and after we survive this life, in trillions and trillions of years, we will end up there.

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joc 17,095

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joc, give yourself an uppercut, knock a bit of sense into yourself, I do not promote the bible , I don't peddle creation myths, I merely point out what has been known to intelligent people for millenia, that reason ultimately fails to explain why The Big Show exists, and never will. But there is a way to fix that little problem, and it starts with you looking into yourself, after all, looking outside doesn't do the job, and slowly chipping away at all those little vanities and internal falsehoods that are clogging up the perceptive works. But it can be a very long process.

Internal perspective is what we all do Habitat...so get over your own self. you do peddle creation myths. Here is a factoid for you. In the form of a question...it is actually THE question. How did something come out of nothing? It is not an unknowable enigma. There is a reason for the beginning of this incredible universe. There is a reason for life erupting on planet Earth. Just because we haven't figured it out does not mean it cannot be figured out.

I honestly don't know where you are coming from. I think you just don't like atheists. I think you don't like people who have actually figured out the truth of religion. And that is fine. We all have our prejudices. But the point is....you will never find the truth of physics on the inside of your own self. It is nothing more than a ploy you use to say that those who care about the truth are somehow inferior, not as intelligent, not as wise as you think you are.

So....let's don't make this all personal. It isn't or at least it shouldn't be as our dear Angel of Light calls the Us vs Them mentallity. What it should be is The Truth vs Fiction. The Truth is provable...Fiction is not.

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danydandan 13,851

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" I assure you that there is a whole world outside of the boundary of your own ignorance. " Podo 2018.

Oh joc, I am not sure you have the faintest idea of what I am talking about, the truly religious are not in opposition to science, they just have realised it has limits, so they just carry the search further.

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joc 17,095

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I do joc. I accept all fact. You're right. There are trillions and trillions. But according to what you highlighted in red, the central perfect universe that's cloaked by enourmous dark gravity bodies that are circling in between the central universe and the part of the universe where we live, there are only one billion spheres of sublime perfection.

The central part of the universe is an entirely different place than where we live because it's perfect and eternal, and after we survive this life, in trillions and trillions of years, we will end up there.

You just made that up Will. But I think you go along way in explaining it here:

17 minutes ago, joc said:

And no Dany, I don't believe because of the Urantia Book. What it says or doesn't say.

Like you, I just want to believe God. Believe despite everything else, because fundamentally, I can't think of a reason not to.

And that's okay Will. Some people can handle the direness of reality better than others. For you religion is a crutch. Welcome to the club...it has lots and lots of members. I can only think of one reason not to...because the actual Truth of a thing is important to me. Is the moon actually made of cheese or is it not? This is a question that I find important to know the actual truth of. I personally, do not want to live the rest of my life in a fantasy. It is really of no consequence to me what Fantasy others wish to indulge in. But for the purpose of conversation ....fantasy never triumphs over reason. Never.

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Habitat 8,564

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The real mystery, most familiar and at the same time most unfamiliar to every man, into which he must be initiated or perish as an atheist, is himself

You just made that up Will. But I think you go along way in explaining it here:

And that's okay Will. Some people can handle the direness of reality better than others. For you religion is a crutch. Welcome to the club...it has lots and lots of members. I can only think of one reason not to...because the actual Truth of a thing is important to me. Is the moon actually made of cheese or is it not? This is a question that I find important to know the actual truth of. I personally, do not want to live the rest of my life in a fantasy. It is really of no consequence to me what Fantasy others wish to indulge in. But for the purpose of conversation ....fantasy never triumphs over reason. Never.

Thanks joc for ruining it for me that the moon is made of Gouda.

Regarding the other thing, I believe God because of my experiences of experiencing him within. You can say what you want about that but they're no fantasy to me. Just as real as any of the other nonsupernatural experiences I have. Like experiencing you personally in this forum.

Edited October 9, 2018 by Will Due

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The real mystery, most familiar and at the same time most unfamiliar to every man, into which he must be initiated or perish as an atheist, is himself

Your fantasy, joc, is that reason has no limits. In fact, it cannot function without them. If it cannot be measured, delineated, defined, distinguished, it is not going to be within the purview of science.

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Regarding the other thing, I believe God because of my experiences of experiencing him within. You can say what you want about that but they're no fantasy to me. Just as real as any of the other nonsupernatural experiences I have. Like experiencing you personally in this forum.

I am glad that you finally figured out that I AM God.

Seriously though...why bring all the crapola of Urantia into it? If the center of the universe is cloaked...then how does anyone know that it is there? I mean...it is cloaked.??