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I value Kevin's participation here and his insight has been a valuable resource. I see him as a voice of experience who has purchased the right to his opinions and his skepticism with the coin of hard training and years of quality membership in this venue.

To be frank, having people like Kevin and Roy Dean openly discussing Aikido's strengths in the international martial arts conversation does a hell of a lot to promote our art and lend credibility to our life's work.

Now you people have nearly driven him off with your tired shtick of overzealous damage control. You all should be ashamed of your behavior and your lack of basic respect.

All of the internal power in the world will get you folks nowhere if you refuse to develop leadership skills. People who are not in your clique are treated like shit on AikiWeb, and that is not the right way to curate this material to an interested but skeptical community.

I value Kevin's participation here and his insight has been a valuable resource. I see him as a voice of experience who has purchased the right to his opinions and his skepticism with the coin of hard training and years of quality membership in this venue.

To be frank, having people like Kevin and Roy Dean openly discussing Aikido's strengths in the international martial arts conversation does a hell of a lot to promote our art and lend credibility to our life's work.

Now you people have nearly driven him off with your tired shtick of overzealous damage control. You should be ashamed of your behavior and your lack of respect.

All of the internal power in the world will get you folks nowhere if you refuse to develop leadership skills. People who are not in your clique are treated like shit on AikiWeb, and that is not the right way to curate this material to an interested but skeptical community.

I didn't see much invective coming from anybody who trains with Dan. I did see some invective coming from Demetrio (he disagrees as to the precise level, but agrees that it was nasty).

I do some invective coming from you. Could you show me exactly where I have shown anybody a lack of respect in this thread?

Could you show me exactly where I have shown anybody a lack of respect in this thread?

How can I, Chris? Your "good cop" routine in this mummer's show is too well polished.

Rather than endlessly debate with me about whether or not you guys are insufferable, I am inviting you to simply take me at my word and sit with my suggestion for a while. You may come to see that I am actually trying to help.

How can I, Chris? Your "good cop" routine in this mummer's show is too well polished.

Rather than endlessly debate with me about whether or not you guys are insufferable, I am inviting you to simply take me at my word and sit with my suggestion for a while. You may come to see that I am actually trying to help.

Well, you said:

Quote:

Benjamin Edelen wrote:

You should be ashamed of your behavior and your lack of respect.

So I took you at your word, and now here you are again, accusing me of a "routine" rather than sincere behavior.

OK - so who else has shown a lack of respect? The only person on the thread that I saw really get nasty was Demetrio.

I've been to seminars with Mike Sigman, a bunch with Dan, finally got to train a bit with Howard Popkin, and Toby Threadgill I consider a friend who is a veritably fountain of knowledge. And I've had time with top students of various other folk including Chin, Ark, Ikeda, and others.

Now I'm giving those names to say what I've done (and my origins are BJJ years ago, Judo as well, dabbling in various striking arts, and then finally settling in Seidokan (Rod Kobayashi) many moons ago. Everything that follows is my take. Nothing is meant to be representative of what any individual named person teaches and I'm sure I'm screwing up tons of it.

So here's my take on a small detail...

What I find is an amazing amount of overlap. And some really powerful people with deeply expanded toolboxes. What I also find is insights in to how to greatly improve my Aikido. Be it dramatically increased stability or vastly more power to move and do things in that relaxed way my sensei were always telling me to have. What I mean is more explanation about what it means to "extend ki". What might be happening in the body, not just from the outside but from the inside. Not just the external "look" but from the internal manipulation making it happen.

For me a good example is unbendable arm. Now consider the normal version of the exercise. Maybe you keep your hand relaxed or maybe you do the "morning glory" hand shape (a la Yoshinkan). Make sure the shoulder is down in side the shoulder socket. Stable and attached to your body properly (which is what most any good sensei will tell you anyway). This allows proper connection to the structures of your entire body and keeps you from "isolating" your arm from the rest of you. Sink it down. Now extend the arm with the hand out a la Yoshinkan, but really try to feel the connection running from your little finger down your forearm (as you bend your elbow slightly rotating the "flower" that is your hand forward and to the sky), through your elbow, and in to your torso itself. Done correctly you can even feel things pulling down in the side of your torso (connection). Now think about an opposing energy extending forward along the top of the arm, through your shoulder, through your bicep, and also meeting at the little finger and extending forward and up. And test unbendable arm again. See if you can feel the test actually pulling on the connection deep in to your torso *rather* that just pulling on your tricep. So the idea is to use *all* that tissue to "absorb" the energy of the test, redirect it, or whatever mental trick you need to use.

Now if you can do this and feel "stronger", think about a connected body working similarly. Instead of doing a movement like a sayu with your "arm" over someone, how about your arm is in the exact same position but they feel like your entire body is on their chest. And when they try to "push back" they don't feel either a disconnect arm or they don't feel a rock hard structure, but they feel a heavier, stronger thing that doesn't appear to have a center (because it is distributed throughout the body and can be changed by how the "insides move" (isn't that one of Ikeda's favorite statements?).

I find it increasingly possible to "put my weight in my hands". Even during techniques, in motion, and frankly it's becoming almost reflexive. Yes, I have a lot of work to do still, but I find I can put on things with power even with my arms extended in ways that were never before possible. Because I feel the connection in my body developing stronger and faster with the exercises I've been taught. And because of the changed perspective of some of the details of what's going on.

No, it wasn't "just do this". It was "Okay, let's develop the sensitivity and the connections. Now do this everyday for 6 months and we'll meet again." Rinse, lather and repeat.

WRT to all the other stuff in this thread, like I said before I get the skepticism. I had it too. I'm not saying anyone's mind would be changed, but I'll also say I've seen very few walk away from a good in person encounter thinking their time was wasted. WRT to stories about who was manhandled by whom, yeah, those kind of things always beg clarification. I know some take it very seriously and get upset to hear those things. But I also know I've seen guys who were quite capable walk out with a changed mind themselves but not always wanting to go "public" with the discussion. Hell, I have seniors in my organization looking at me sideways rather often. And since I find myself often on the outs with a variety of folk, well, I've become rather resigned to being true to myself and knowing me talking about this stuff here may not be doing me any favors with *some* folk in my own organization. So be it. So I also get the hesitation. I spent a lot of years "going outside" but keeping it totally quiet. But... Life's too short. At least for me.

So carry on. And fire away. Hopefully I can answer any questions about the simple exercise I outlined. And while I'm sure many are saying "hey, that's what I already do", well, that may be the case. However, I've seen a whole lot of people over the years saying that who change what they say after they get on the mat with some folk who do it really, really well. And you find there is a factor of magnitude involved...

All that said... Happy holidays, all. I respect all of you guys on both sides. Might I suggest a few deep cleansing breaths, let it go, and move on? And let's talk about what we can productively discuss in a limited forum like this.

I have found that first person experience is the only way to get to this; not through third person experience. Thus, I tend to deal with issues in a very direct way to not waste time dealing with unnecessary or useless information that simply is not helpful.

I agree with you and if you really believe this, go to the next seminar with Dan.

If new people arrive at my place, I ask them to take part, to come onto the tatami, it doesn't oblige them in any way. And I tell them that I won't probably see them again if they think it is bullshit. I've had visitors who lectured me for half an hour on the philosophy and aim of aikido. I try to keep my face neutral since it is useless information that is simply is not helpful and because at the same time it's the information that sparked their interest. If they are in doubt they can get a second, a third try and if they are still in doubt I tell them that it is probably better to go some place else. After all there are seven different Martial Arts who train in the same sportshall I'm training in.

I agree with you and if you really believe this, go to the next seminar with Dan.

If new people arrive at my place, I ask them to take part, to come onto the tatami, it doesn't oblige them in any way. And I tell them that I won't probably see them again if they think it is bullshit. I've had visitors who lectured me for half an hour on the philosophy and aim of aikido. I try to keep my face neutral since it is useless information that is simply is not helpful and because at the same time it's the information that sparked their interest. If they are in doubt they can get a second, a third try and if they are still in doubt I tell them that it is probably better to go some place else. After all there are seven different Martial Arts who train in the same sportshall I'm training in.

First, Kevin, simply transfer to the ATL. We got some bases you can live at. We're working on trying to get a regular schedule with the man. Plus, it's been a while since you've been down here.

Second, Dan is not on Aikiweb. Aikiweb made a decision to remove Dan from participating in discussions. I think there are many Aikiweb users who would rather not talk about Dan because Dan is not able to speak for himself. So, in a large sense any conversation that uses Dan's name is essentially conjecture since he is not present on this forum. Right now, the best access a user has to experience a surly Nor'Easterner is to train with him. But isn't this the case with many instructors? I don't email Ikeda sensei; I train with sensei when he comes down to South Carolina or Orlando. I occasionally call Patty Sensei, but I don't chat with Saotome Sensei; I visit the Shrine or train at one of his seminars. I do not think it is unreasonable to concede the best access to an instructor is direct.

Third, I find it argumentative that in a thread about personal experience at a seminar in the Internal Training section we are still contesting Aiki. Why anyone is in this thread who has no interest in Aiki is beyond me. In fact, probably anyone reading the OP who has not experienced Dan has gotta be at least a little confused. Part of my earlier post was an attempt to set the stage for the presence of conjecture because those who have experienced Dan are willing to concede the conjecture. I also made a point earlier that many of us are willing to concede authority to individuals we have never met about subjects with which we do not have direct experience. I never trained with Saito Sensei, but I accept his credibility because I know many people who had good experiences with him. Heck, sometimes we do not even have the privilege of an individual authority - every day "economists" tell me the economy is getting better. At some point we have the opportunity to either cede credibility to an individual or not. If you are in the "Aiki is BS" camp, then don't participate because there is little that you will read that will change your perspective.

There are several posts in this thread that clearly indicate an individual is not willing to concede Dan's personal credibility. I don't care the reason and there is nothing wrong with that decision. The are several posts in this thread that are willing to concede that Dan is personally credible in what he does. I personally think making a decision based upon a stretched conjecture about the application of Aiki in other arts... Well, I'd like to see any aikido person go up against a professional BJJ player and use only aikido. Or a professional judo player. Before we say , "well, unless Dan can escape a triangle choke from a pro BJJ player you can't claim aiki works in BJJ." I'd like to challenge us to consider the reality of that statement and see if we would apply it to any aikido person before conceding ethos to that individual. I can tell you how most aikido people escape a triangle choke from a pro BJJ'er - the ref taps the BJJer on the shoulder.

I think in order for these conversations to continue, we need to develop real, consistent and reproduce-able standards of credibility so we can compare apples to apples. I think the best way to do that is to train with Dan because I think first-person is the best experience. I think there are people training with Dan who are happy to share what they are working on, but without the expertise Dan possesses. In a couple of years, I think there will be more students out there that give a good understanding of what is aiki training and they will become outlets, too.

I consider Kevin a friend and a kindred spirit in his pursuit of aikido. I am personally excited for him to train with Dan because I feel aiki training is consistent with Kevin's belief of aiki and aikido. Is that awkwardly praising Dan's skill? Yeah. Because it sure isn't gonna be Dan's personality that wins you over (just kidding, Dan is actually a great guy and incredibly personable). I am not trying to be argumentative myself, but trying to show a perspective that maybe instills some empathy into the discussion.

And to chime in on Keith's post (which is great), we also use a variation of unbendable arm as a connection exercise. Talk about boring/incredibly hard/uncomfortable.

7 years (at least) since Ellis Amdur and Dan had mojitos, and Dan subsequently offered to meet Mark Murray and Ron Tisdale, as representatives of the online aikido community, to let them sample his methodology and skills,

4 years since Dan conducted his private "teachers only" workshop that led to the current slate of workshops (now over 20 a year) and study groups,

3 years since Dan's first workshop in Hawaii, and

almost 1 month since Scott Burke wrote the opening post of this thread.

At this point, inability to meet up with Dan due to the machinations of Murphy's Law or tengu notwithstanding (i.e. Kevin and some others), people in the online aikido community have largely made up their minds and set their priorities regarding where IT falls (or doesn't) in their respective training, with plenty of online documentation of those choices in several cases to boot.

Training in what is constructive that one enjoys, with people who are enjoyable as training partners, is so much better than sparring in online discussions that cannot be constructive. Have a wonderful 2014 everyone, and best wishes in your training of choice this year!

Oh, and BJ Penn, in the off chance you happen to be surfing aikido forums, Jamie Yugawa is trying to get a hold of you.

One thing really relevant to this thread would be a photo of Dan in an applied triangle, you know, where the legs are locked instead of loosely crossed at the ankles : which is all I can find.

Specifically I'm talking about an illustration of THIS ;

Quote:

Zoe Botnaro wrote:

The attachment is Dan in Hawaii taking apart an applied Triangle choke after it was set in place by an Mixed Martial artist.

which stirred some responses.
You see ... an applied triangle is, how can we put it ... difficult to take apart.
I would LOVE to see a sequence of this happening! Great stuff!

The other weird thing I noted, regarding ground grappling : why is Dan the only one shown properly applying an armbar? With control of the victim's wrist to prevent rotation. Nobody else is even close and there are plenty of armbar photos. What are they doing? Why? One guy even has two arms across the victim's arm but no hand grip on it at all! Just baffling.

Chris wasn't in Kona. And no one shot photos in motor drive / continuous mode. The arm bars and triangles were set tight (I study judo, and jujutsu with ne-waza, so take that peer review for what it's worth). But pocket and phone cams have delay (what you mostly see is Dan lecturing after the 1.5 seconds it took for the peng and spiraling to undo the lock of choice).

I think it's good for demo purposes - similar in principle (tho applied to grappling holds) to when Wang Shu Jin would let people strike him. If you have your jin lined up and body connections stretched when someone puts a hold on you, it can feel to them like it's cinched in tightly and you still can move freely to escape or counter. It's not the same thing as being invulnerable to submissions - anyone can get caught by somebody good enough. Which I don't think anyone competent would argue against.

I think it's good for demo purposes - similar in principle (tho applied to grappling holds) to when Wang Shu Jin would let people strike him. If you have your jin lined up and body connections stretched when someone puts a hold on you, it can feel to them like it's cinched in tightly and you still can move freely to escape or counter. It's not the same thing as being invulnerable to submissions - anyone can get caught by somebody good enough. Which I don't think anyone competent would argue against.

Per a conversation with Dan - that's exactly what he was demonstrating, as well as how to do it and why, and you're also right in that Dan says repeatedly that anyone can get hit or locked.

Per a conversation with Dan - that's exactly what he was demonstrating, as well as how to do it and why, and you're also right in that Dan says repeatedly that anyone can get hit or locked.

Best,

Chris

Makes sense. Just a manner of understanding the functional difference between pretending to yield via absorption versus getting caught or giving yourself up to assist in training a principle. Good stuff.

Jon, I am sorry I missed your post #88 on 3 January. Thanks and I agree. FWIW I am relocating to Seattle Washington area in September. It was there or Columbus Georgia! Columbus would have put me close to ATL indeed! However, the Army saw it best to send me to the West Coast for a few years. I am looking forward to training with the many friends and people I have met, or have not met over the years in that area. I am optimistic I will catch up with Dan out there some where in the next year!

As the debate rages on, here and from other threads over the years I have come to a couple of observations.

We have people who have seen Dan Harden who are fans.
We have skeptics who have not seen Dan Harden.
What we don't seem to have is people who have seen Dan and practiced with him, but thought what he was teaching was nonsense.......anyone???

I don't really want to discuss Dan as I believe he's said before that it should be about the skills trained rather than any one person. There are people that post here and elsewhere who have trained with just about everyone that gets talked about regarding IS skills and have made decisions that there's other people they'd rather train with. It's no big deal and should be expected as this kind of path isn't for everyone.