Wi;d Horses - thanks for that. I think I know that getting a bit is not going to solve the problem - the problem isn't his mouth it's the communication and respect between them. Thank you for the game ideas, too. Sometimes when I'm so focussed on something, I forget to think of different things and so we've been in a bit of a rut. I've been watching the things they do at rallies too, to get some ideas. But the weather has been awful, so we have to wait. Sometimes a bit of a break is good, though :)

Alwaysbehind -He definitely either doesn't like the bit, or needs to get used to it again, but he doesn't make a big deal of it. Still waiting for the dentist.
He is as responsive with a bit as he is without. When we bought him, he had been ridden in a rope halter/hackamore with leadrope, but we just could not get him to listen and I was concerned about her safety, so bought the Dr. Cook style cross under bridle, which he seems perfectly fine in, until he's had enough of the ride and heads on home. Then there's little she can do about it! I wouldn't say it's dangerous, as he just walks, but it certainly takes the fun out of it when all we are doing is fighting with him.

1. What she really does need, and I'm trying to organise for her, is a few individual lessons with someone who understands bitless riding. 2. Pony Club advice has encouraged tighter reins and the result has not worked, but now we're all confused!

3. we'll continue with the lunging, and start some more fun ground work stuff. I need to chill!

1. You got it!
2. Wrong advice, as you know from experience. Your PC branch is confused, not you!
3. Your horse won't be more respectful of you when you're astride than he is with you on the ground. You could tell daughter this, to motivate her to gain the respect on the ground first.

Yippee! I have a riding lesson set up with the instructor that works with the horses where we bought our pony. She teaches both with and without a bit, so understands all the little issues we are having difficulty with.

My daughter has been excited about the idea of playing more games and doing more groundwork to improve the communication between the two of them. Unfortunately, the weather has been lousy, so we have had to wait. Out this afternoon though, so fingers crossed he's not fresh and full of beans with all the new grass!

Thanks again for all the positive feedback and support. I'm always open to new ideas :)

now im not a very experienced rider but i do know about being nurvous of stubborn head throwers my horse does the same thing. all i know is time, effort, doing only what your comfertable with. and lots of games!

UPDATE...
After all the wonderful and supportive advice, I thought I'd update our tale, and perhaps there's more you can help me with. I spent the whole night thinking about this. Again. Lol :)

I have a dentist booked, but not for another week yet, so still waiting to find out about Matty's teeth.
We swapped the bit for a 1/2 inch smaller, and it's much better. No head throwing in the couple times he had it in. Also have a new bridle with noseband and flash, but I haven't used the flash yet (there's a story to that, but maybe not now...)

My daughter rode him in a dressage test on weds, and it was hideous! Well, I say that because we had no idea where in the test she was as he was all over the show, weaving, stopping, starting. Lol. But as a Mikayla/Matty ride it was brilliant because he was trying all these evasive strategies with her so he didn't have to listen, and, with the back up of a grass reign, she wouldn't have a bar of it and pushed him through. I was so proud of her. I could see steam coming out her ears though!

So yesterday being Thursday, we had jacked up a lesson. The instructor is a natural horsemanship trainer, not pony club. That made a huge difference. She prefers horses being bitless, but in this case she said he needs a bit.
Here's what I saw: The best ride ever. Over an hour, and Mikayla had Matty walking, circling, one-reign stops and trotting on a straight line. It was hard work, but she learnt so much and found some easy solutions to her hassles (not to say they are now fixed, it's just that we know how to work on them over the long haul).
Here's what the instructor said: Being a standard bred, he possibly has not been restarted properly. She said he is numb to certain aids, and hasn't learnt them properly yet. In her opinion, Mikayla could maybe get him going nicely, but it will take a long time, and it might be so hard for her that she gives up.

So we have some options. 1.) Sell him or return him to where he came
2.) keep plodding on with lessons
3.) send him away to be restarted and then see how he is when he returns and then revisit options 1 & 2

I think it would be easy if he wasn't so full of character and we hadn't gotten so attached to him! I'll be on the phone a bit today, I think.

That is so good that she had Matty working so well after just 1 hour!!

Good luck and I hope it goes well with whatever you chose to do.

There is one principle that should never be abandoned, namely, that the rider must first learn to control himself before he can control his horse. This is the basic, most important principle to be preserved in equitation - Alois Podhajsky

I agree with TinyLiny about the ground work. I often take my sister (10 yo) with me because she just loves horses, she also has lessons in a pony-club each week. She began by only helping me groom Nello, give me the right tools and so on. She rode him for photos, not moving. Then she saw me grondwork, was my "cameragirl" and asked questions. Then she began to try herself... In the arena first, trying to ask simple things that he likes. Then more difficult things. Then she was the one to take him from the stable to the arena, then to the pasture (there's a road to cross!)... She took him for walks around the town on foot, I became the cameragirl lol. And she rides him quite often while I hold him, in the countryside or in town, just trying to improve her seat. Then one day I set a "game" with cones and so on and she had to decide where to go, walk him, stop him, turn, step backwards, have him yield to the reins and bring his nose to her foot...

She found the stuff on horseback was harder, but groundwork is just fun for her, and this way she gradually becomes a leader for him so that he does not really disobey her when ridden. She just enjoys it and comes once a week with me (not more because when she's there we can't go for long long walks outside with trots ans canters...). And she's always happy to do so. I try to keep it a game for her, not forcing anything on them, just letting her do what she feels like. Sometimes I interven because she asks things in a "blurred" way and Nello does nothing good, but we try to just keep smiling and breathing calmly...

The ground work has definitly been fantastic, and just taking time out to do fun things like giving him a wash has been great. Unfortunately, given the new feedback, that's just not going to cut it. He clearly has a lot to learn and now I'm faced with the prospect of sending him back after all that work. I need to decide if he has the potential to learn to be what we thought he was when we bought him. If that makes any sense? Irresponsible animal trading (with any animal, not just horses) really hacks me off! I feel like I've been taken advantage of due to my ignorance when the dealer should have bloody known better. End of rant.

Of course groundwork isn't enough... But maybe you can find some good trainer who can try and find out his temper, and whether he is likely to become a safe partner for you and your daughter. If not, you will probably, anyway, know more baout him so you'll be able to find a new owner who will be able to help him improve himself... Don't you think?

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