An Open Letter To American Muslims on Same-Sex Marriage

Hey there. It’s two of your brothers. We’re writing to you about the Supreme Court’s decision to legalize gay marriage in all fifty states. The good news is that a whopping 42% of you support marriage equality, as do both of our Muslim elected officials in the United States Congress. One even serves as vice chair of the LGBT Equality Caucus! There are many faithful gay and lesbian Muslims in the US and we love and support all of them.

At the same time, many of you are scandalized by the ruling (we know because you keep tweeting about it), and many more of you are equally perturbed but have chosen to keep it to yourself. With all the rainbow-flag waving and self-congratulatory pats on the back this country is giving itself right now, you don’t need another reason for Americans to dislike you.

Sure Rick Santorum and Mike Huckabee can call the Supreme Court decision the precursor to the End of Days and the final battle of Armageddon. But if you try saying something like that on TV you may end up in Guantanamo. So you’re staying quiet. You may not like the Supreme Court’s decision but you’re willing to tolerate it.

We understand where you’re coming from. Being Muslim in America is not easy. On the one hand you’re a part of mainstream culture. You’re a Warriors fan. You listen to Kanye. You watch Game of Thrones. You even went to the office Christmas party and sang Silent Night!

On the other hand, you want to stay true to your faith and traditions: You go to the mosque and send your kids to Islamic school, fast during Ramadan, and swap Turkey bacon on your BLT, all in an attempt to establish a firm Muslim identity in a non-Muslim country.

But now that same-sex marriage is legal in America, it’s shaking up your faith. You’re afraid of the future and what this could mean for your kids. You recognize the growing acceptance of gay rights, but personally you just can’t bring yourself to embrace the shift. You may feel okay with having gay acquaintances or coworkers. You may even agree that being gay doesn’t disqualify you from also being a Muslim. But privately, you still feel like the LGBT community is a living contradiction to what you were brought up to believe.

But here’s the thing. When you are an underrepresented minority—whether Muslim, African American, female, etc.—democracy is an all or nothing business. You fight for everyone’s rights (and the operative word here is “fight”), or you get none for yourself. Democracy isn’t a buffet. You can’t pick and choose which civil liberties apply to which people. Either we are all equal, or the whole thing is just a sham.

We Muslims are already a deeply marginalized people in mainstream American culture. More than half of Americans have a negative view of us. One-third of Americans—that’s more than one hundred million people—want us to carry special IDs so that they can easily identify us as Muslim. We shouldn’t be perpetuating our marginalization by marginalizing others. Rejecting the right to same-sex marriage, but then expecting empathy for our community’s struggle, is hypocritical.

Think about the way people look at your hijabi sister or your bearded brother when they walk through the mall. Think about the grumbles and stares you get at airports. Think about the vitriol that’s spewed on you by your own elected political leaders. That’s how your LGBT brothers and sisters feel every day of their lives. Are you okay with that?

We don’t know about you, but our faith teaches us to care for the weak and the marginalized, the poor and dispossessed, those who are trampled underfoot, those who are persecuted—no matter who they are, no matter what they believe, no matter who they choose to love.

Believers, stand firm for God, be witnesses for justice. Never allow the hatred of people to prevent you from being just. Be just, for this is closest to righteousness (Quran 5:8).

It doesn’t get any clearer than that.

You may think LGBT rights is a new conversation, something that’s only recently come into contact with modern Islamic thought, but trust us, it’s not. Challenging the status quo for the betterment of society is one of the very foundations on which Islam was built.

No one is asking you to change your beliefs. If you feel your faith tells you that homosexuality is haram, fine. We disagree with your interpretation, but you’re entitled to it.

Ain’t America grand?

But if you can’t find it in your heart to accept gays on principle, think about the country you want to live in. After all, the constitution that just ensured the rights of LGBT communities is the same constitution that protects our mosques and community centers, that keeps our Islamic schools open, that allows us equal rights and privileges in the face of overwhelming hatred and bigotry from our fellow Americans. You can’t celebrate one without the other.

That’s why it’s not enough to simply “tolerate” the Supreme Court decision. Tolerating another community only stirs up concealed fear toward the marginalized and apathy toward the political process. As minorities we don’t have the luxury to have either of those emotions. We have to do more than tolerate. We have to embrace. We have to fight for the right of others to live their lives as freely as we want to live ours.

Bottom line is this: standing up for marginalized communities, even when you disagree with them, is not just the right thing to do, it’s the Muslim thing to do. Remember that whole God is merciful and compassionate thing? That extends to all people, not just those who are straight.

Celebrate. Don’t tolerate. Love really does win.

Yours Truly,

Reza Aslan and Hasan Minhaj

Agree, disagree, find out more about LGBT issues in Islam, and continue the conversation here.

lol, how about Qur’an 7:80-84 ?? and countless other anti gay verses? You’re either asking muslims to be less muslim like your phony selves or asking them to practice Taqiyya. Judging by the lack of condemnation of crimes against LGBT people from around the muslim world, looks like the latter. A truly insidious piece you’ve produced here.

shorttrooper

This seems to be an entire argument about how American Muslims’ main concern should be trying to fit in with mainstream culture.

Even when I was an Atheist I was disheartened and disgusted by much of American mainstream culture, let alone after I converted. How is watching Game of Thrones (an awesome show subversively filled with pornography) something we should embrace? Or listening to Kanye or any other expletive-laced popular music something Muslims should embrace? I would hope we’d hold ourselves to higher standards than that.

As for gay marriage, while I think it’s perfectly reasonable to support the government’s ability to extend the issuing of civil unions to whatever mish-mash of adults they see fit (ignoring for the moment the fact that the judicial branch effectively rendered moot the democratic will of the majority of people who in state after state voted to ban same-sex marriages, even in liberal California), there’s a difference between accepting the state’s extended definition and personally embracing and upholding same-sex unions as a good and halal act.

You make the case that rights need to be extended equally to all, and I agree. But they already were. A gay person had the same rights as a heterosexual person. Previously, neither one could enter into a legal marriage contract with a partner of the same sex. This isn’t about extending rights, it’s a redefinition of an institution. Which again, I’m fine with, the government can decide upon whatever definition they want, but let’s be clear in what we’re talking about please.

Susie Hayward

Great article! Thanks for writing it. But just for the record– women aren’t a minority in this country. In fact, we’re the majority.

Women are not a minority by sheer numbers, but they are under-represented in terms of pay, political power, corporate leadership, wealth accumulation, and other factors. I think that’s what they meant — women as disenfranchised members of society, not as a numeric minority.

This article could be edited to remove the Muslim-specific language and then be turned into a manifesto on how to be an American. It’s an expanded and much more lyrical version of “your freedom to throw punches ends where my nose starts.” If only we could all remember this idea — that there are two freedoms to balance: freedom FROM things and freedom TO DO things. You are free to reject homosexuality in your religious beliefs, but you are not free to take away civil rights from homosexuals.

Susie Hayward

Hi Jim. I know that’s what they meant, and I appreciate their lifting up gender injustice. But women are often described sloppily and mistakingly as a “minority” when the authors mean something else (disempowered/oppressed). In fact, when women are described consistently as a minority when they are in fact a majority, it underscores the irony of the situation- the ways in which women are seen and characterized. Just trying to encourage more precise language in describing groups that face discrimination in this country! But I don’t mean to disparage the authors or distract from the purpose of the article. It’s otherwise a well done article, and an important one.

johnval

Again we see Reza Aslan in his own demagogian way uses half truths and outright lies to try and blind us from the core fascism of Arabism Islam. Show me one Muslim majority country in the middle east that has a gay parade Reza? The truth is you see gays being murdered from Cairo to Gaza to Dubai to Istanbul. Everywhere except Israel. But that doesn’t fit your narrative, does it?

johnsmart

dude, if we did things via majority rule only… your religion would be dropped kicked out of the nation. I would not be pining for a direct democracy if I were you.

Anonymous

As a Muslim, I don’t think anyone should be forced to celebrate something they disagree with. I think a big part of the argument, that a lot of people miss, is that homosexuality is not a sin. You cannot change what you were born with. You can, however, control what you do, and the ACT of gay marriage is what Muslims consider to be a sin. So I can’t celebrate the act and still be a devout Muslim. That being said, it’s also not my place to tell others what they can and cannot do. I have long been a proponent for the legalization of gay marriage, because in a country which separates church and state, it’s simply not fair to allow certain people to marry and others to not. The real issue here is that religion has no place in the law, and that is what we must fight for.

toya

How does religion have no place in law ? You are basically saying you want to separate the core base for which law where founded on . Remember how the laws began and remember what it states in our court houses “In GOD we just ” always !

shorttrooper

No pining, I just find it odd that this article lauds democracy and yet also lauds a decision that completely contradicted the will of the people. An interesting side note, hence the parenthetical treatment of that statement.

The main issue is that the article is saying that in order to protect your own rights you have to protect the rights of those who do things you disagree with. Obviously. But again, no one was being denied a right based on their sexual orientation. You could be homosexual and still get married, it’s just that the definition of marriage was a specific thing, a union of one man and one woman. You can disagree that the definition of marriage should have been changed and still agree that everyone should be treated equally under the law. It may seem like I’m arguing semantics, but in law, as in life, words matter.

And then there’s the insinuation that Islam is perfectly fine with homosexuality, which, even for me who holds a pretty liberal and figurative interpretation of the religion is hard to swallow.

Brewerofbeers

Your ignorance of our legal system is not a valid argument.

Brewerofbeers

It is always amazing how much right wingers in America have in common with right wingers in Islamic nations.

Nazim Tejani

What a beautiful way to teach tolerance and empathy towards minority including gay issues. Being a Muslim and Gay I thanked you for the understanding and acknowledging us as Muslims too and give a simple brighter picture if equality for everybody. #LoveWins

Btw, being gay/lesbian is a crime in Islam that deserve the death penalty,
any Muslim who just ignore this is an ignorant Muslim, so it doesn’t
really matter if there are Muslims who support gay marriage or not,
because Islam doesn’t.

MakesNoScents

What happened to religious freedom? I thought all you neocons had a big boner for the armed forces “protecting our freedom” yet you’re advocating someone else’s religious freedom be taken away from them. Which is it?

throwingawayheaven

So it says in the Quran that people who are gay must be put to death? What kind of God is that?

ace

!!!

Just Little ol’ Me

Are you seriously saying that our law is based on religion? Of the 10 commandments, only 2-3 of them are actually laws: don’t kill, don’t steal and don’t lie (this isn’t actually a law, perjury is though, so that’s sort of a law). There are certainly codified laws that. Hamurabi’s code, dating back to approximately 1745 BCE covers more than that.

Face it, our laws are not based on the bible, they are secular and they should be. Not everyone in this country shares your religious beliefs. The idea of gay people marrying doesn’t bother me, at all. The idea of them having sex doesn’t bother me at all. The idea of someone blaspheming your god doesn’t bother me, at all. The idea of burning witches at a stake DOES bother me. The idea that some fool thinks that their god doesn’t want them getting vaccinated and makes the decision to deliberately endanger public health (as well as their own) because of it DOES bother me.

John Kusters

In what way is US law founded on religion? Please, clarify and support this statement. And just to be certain, you are aware that “In God We Trust” was made the National Motto and added to our currency in the 1950s, right? It’s a relatively recent change, not representative of the foundation of our laws.

me

“you cannot change what you were born with” .. so if someone is born with cleptomania .. we should just let him steal right..

eaglesfan, love my Knee-gles

Can’t say I’m normally a fan of Reza but if his message is ultimately that Islam has to dismiss the barbaric aspects of its archaic roots and assimilate with the conventional morality of a modern civil society, preach on.

Ayesha M

It’s disappointing to me that such a ludicrous article can be posted by 2 people who see themselves as a spokesperson for the Muslim population. This seems like a publicity stunt for Reza and Mr. Slickback. Not to personally get on anyone, but are Reza and Hasan really on the maxima to preach what Islam allows? If you’re willing to recite one verse from the Quran you should do you’re study on others relevant as well. As a top Law student myself, there’s no way I can analyze a case study without looking at it in it’s entirety. I’m not sure if Hasan is trying to put on a half baked comedy act here, if he is, it’s really not funny. Stick to standup, not even sure if you or Reza even show up for Jumma. Should’ve reviewed this article with a couple Imams before posting. Listening to pop culture isn’t the same as the case in question. You can go ahead and say this is a democracy/secular country, but you can’t say that islamically this is ok. I suggest you read more Surahs, and pray for your guys’ forgiveness and pray for my own if I have said anything wrong and iA I pass the Bar.

(28) And [mention] Lot, when he said to his people, “Indeed, you commit such
immorality as no one has preceded you with from among the worlds.

(29) Indeed, you approach men and obstruct the road and commit in your
meetings [every] evil.” And the answer of his people was not but they
said, “Bring us the punishment of Allah, if you should be of the
truthful.”

(30) He said, “My Lord, support me against the corrupting people.”

(31) And when
Our messengers came to Abraham with the good tidings, they said,
“Indeed, we will destroy the people of that Lot’s city. Indeed, its
people have been wrongdoers.”

(32) [Abraham] said, “Indeed, within it is Lot.” They said, “We are
more knowing of who is within it. We will surely save him and his
family, except his wife. She is to be of those who remain behind.”

(33) And when Our messengers came to Lot, he was distressed for them
and felt for them great discomfort. They said, “Fear not, nor grieve.
Indeed, we will save you and your family, except your wife; she is to be
of those who remain behind.

(34) Indeed, we will bring down on the people of this city punishment from
the sky because they have been defiantly disobedient.”

(35) And We have certainly left of it a sign as clear evidence for a people who use reason. – Alankabot chapter.

And all the Sahaba (Prophet Muhammad’s Companions) agreed that they deserve the death penalty.

Just because it’s a something you don’t like it doesn’t mean that the problem is in God, maybe it’s you who can’t understand the disgusting crime about being gay/lesbian and it’s harm on the community. Then I may ask: What kind of people are you? You have a relapsing instinct.

fiona64

When you are an underrepresented minority—whether Muslim, African
American, female, etc.—democracy is an all or nothing business. You
fight for everyone’s rights (and the operative word here is
“fight”), or you get none for yourself. Democracy isn’t a buffet. You
can’t pick and choose which civil liberties apply to which people.
Either we are all equal, or the whole thing is just a sham.

Thank you. This is pretty much what I told every single person who asked me why I, a straight, middle-aged white woman, was so involved in fighting for marriage equality. Unless we *all* have equal rights, none of us do.

fiona64

I’m very sorry, Toya, but it seems you were absent for more than a few days of high school civics class.

fiona64

We are considered a minority based on the amounts of discrimination we have faced — and continue to face.

Anonymous

You are a Muslim because of what’s in your heart! Nothing can change that.

Anonymous

You can’t put religion into law when not everyone practices the same religion. Heck, people practice the same religion differently. Yes, I am a Muslim, but I will always advocate separation of church and state. It’s the only fair way, and Islam preaches justice.

Anonymous

The Bible has pretty archaic roots with this topic too… agreeing with something doesn’t mean that we have “assimilated.” I am an American Muslim and I disagree with gay marriage. I’m tired of people assuming that Islam is barbaric, if that’s what you were implying.

Phil Oliver

Christ on a bike! You have so much hate!

Ryan

Pretty sure the implication was that PARTS of the Qur’an are barbaric (or at least have been interpreted by the faithful in barbaric ways) which is 100% accurate. Same goes for the Bible. And those practices are the ones that should be argued against and have no place in a civilized society. I am an Atheist personally but have always fought for ones freedom to practice any personal religion they wish. You can hold any ideals you want, but the second you try to hold another to those same ideals you are doing it wrong.

Anonymous

Agreed. Islam itself says that there is to be no compulsion in religion.

eaglesfan, love my Knee-gles

I’m not singling out Islam and absolutely agree with you that the Bible has archaic roots. But each holy book for all major religions have disgusting, barbaric passages that range from stoning homosexuals to killing apostates. No nonsensical contextual analysis is necessary. They’re barbaric and have no place in modern society. Assimilating with a civil society means keeping your faith but renouncing those parts of the bible/qoran/torah that would inspire truly immoral behavior. As an atheist, I don’t think that’s too much to ask.

Anonymous

Wrong. You are a Muslim by your actions, and by his actions he’s going to hell.

GregAbdul

The hypocrisy here is amazing. :

“But here’s the thing. When you are an underrepresented minority—whether Muslim, African American, female, etc.—democracy is an all or nothing business. You fight for everyone’s rights (and the operative word here is “fight”), or you get none for yourself. Democracy isn’t a buffet. You can’t pick and choose which civil liberties apply to which people. Either we are all equal, or the whole thing is just a sham.”

So this means I can expect these two writers any day to come out in support of polygamy? Marriage freedom is for everyone or no one, according to them and I know they believe in freedom for EVERYONE…don’t they?

I’m a practicing Episcopalian who has been fortunate enough to visit 25 Muslim countries in North Africa and Asia. The one thing I’ve learned is that Islam, like Christianity, is a big tent. Jihadi groups notwithstanding, most Muslims have been nothing but gracious when they become aware of our religious and moral differences. Thanks for messages like this. I’ve had Muslim American’s back through some dark times. It’s nice to know many Muslims have our back too.

I think a big part of it though is in the way you interpret it. Assimilating doesn’t mean giving up parts of your religion. The verses that sound bad, and I agree they exist, have meaning behind them. It’s easy to pick out a verse and say “this sounds good” or “this sounds bad.” But truly understanding religion takes years upon years. The Quran says that killing a person is like killing all of humanity. So clearly, we are not allowed to murder anyone. I think before calling something out as barbaric or outdated, we really have to look at the context and interpret it correctly.

GregAbdul

you have made a bigger point than the entire article. It has been noted, these two don’t speak for Muslims. They are Western approved spokes people, which means, there are almost no Muslims who follow them and the media likes them because of the many ways they do not practice Islam. I think sometimes maybe Muslims like this take Western acceptance as a stamp of authority when it’s only Western acceptance of a watered-down version of what white Christians don’t like.

Still not a minority. Words have meanings. You can call them an oppressed class if that’s what you’re getting at, but they are not a minority.

Anonymous

Ignorant comment. BEING gay is not a sin. Gay MARRIAGE is a sin, and if this brother is participating in that, it’s between him and God. Not my place to tell him he’s not.

shorttrooper

Well, polygamy is allowed in Islam, so it would be logical for them to do that. If anything, it’s the definition of marriage that has the most historical precedent. Now will it happen? Maybe, but it will take a while simply because the logistics become quite a nightmare. (Though I’m sure lawyers would love the extra work!)

GregAbdul

this is not about the genetic origins of homosexual behavior. I quoted them. This is about freedom and according to them, true American freedom is for everyone and not just for certain individuals. You can’t pick and choose who’s free…like your reply attempts to do. Your first reply was right…in Montana, a polygamist has already shown up at the courthouse steps trying to marry his second wife under the new marriage expansion rules. “The state has no right to ban who I love…” is exactly what he said.

dmx92145

There is a significant difference between Allah’s law, morality and man’s law (law of the land).
The law of the land is made by man to benefit those in power. Over time, the law of the land change’s to benefit the power structure or political structure. Morality is based upon ones thoughts or the customs found in a certain location in society. Morality is a particular system of values and principles of conduct, especially one held by a specified person or society.

Allah’s (God’s) law is above all man made laws or any of man’s moralities. Allah’s law take precedence over any law man can conceive. Therefore, homosexuality, adultery, fornication, etc. are all major sins according to Allah’s law. Anyone who legislates laws in contradiction to Allah’s law will suffer the consequences.

Same sex marriage is legislation that is in conflict with Allah’s law and anyone who participates in it or enforces it will answer to Allah.

“ignoring for the moment the fact that the judicial branch effectively
rendered moot the democratic will of the majority of people who in state
after state voted to ban same-sex marriages, even in liberal California”

And this is unique how? The judicial branch did the same thing when it overturned bans on segregated schools and facilities, and interracial marriage.

The Supremecy Clause says that federal laws override state laws and constitutions and the 14th Amendment specifically says that “No State shall make or enforce any law which shall abridge the privileges or immunities of citizens of the United States”. The Supreme Court has used this Amendment to overturn state laws on interracial marriage (Loving v. Virginia) and segregated facilities (Brown v. Topeka Board of Education and Heart of Atlanta Motel v. United States) as well as bans on same sex marriage.

Checks and balances and separation of powers are part of our democracy too. The majority can’t use the tools of a democracy to oppress a minority. That’s mob rule.

shorttrooper

There’s a distinction between being gay and engaging in homosexual acts. It is only the latter that is forbidden.

Nobody

You seem to have a special relationship with God. Tell us, who else has He/She specifically told you is going to hell since you are telling (with such conviction) a person you don’t even know where they’re going in the afterlife…?

This isn’t about freedom. It’s about equality before the law based on an innate characteristic.

GregAbdul

your argument is a conservative Muslim argument, that really should only y be made to Muslims (you expect non Muslims to agree with you about being ruled by Allah?). As a Muslim, I ask you to quit the nonsense. The verse in the Quran that talks about legislation being only for Allah is figurative. If it’s not figurative, then no mufti, Qadhi or fuqaha can make a ruling. God’s law literally has to come from Allah Alone for it to be purely God’s law. As men, most of us pray and then go out and try to implement what God wants on the earth. We disagree and that is why we have wars and that is why we have democracy. Aslan and Minaj are expressing an extreme left wing idea…and you are expressing an extreme right wing idea….as a liberal Muslim, I would rather we ere to the left, cause your type causes a Syria and an Afghanistan, where militias and mass death decide “Allah’s law.”

Gregory Peterson

“Homosexuality” is a now much abused modern-era social construct with a lot of discredited scientific baggage and of ever more dubious utility…except maybe for scapegoating purposes.

shorttrooper

As I replied above, I was simply making an interesting side note that an article that praises democracy is praising an act that directly contradicted the democratic will of the people. It’s disingenuous to present the supreme court’s decision as though it was some mandate by the popular majority of American citizens.

The truth is that, despite the obvious media narrative and agenda, the majority of Americans still oppose same sex marriage. Therefore a Muslim’s opposition to same-sex marriage actually makes them more in line with the average American than not.

Ifra Nasir Khoso

I do completely understand the stance on legitimate equal rights for all and specifically in a country where even animals are treated with respect and where Eid shopping sales and celebrations are promoted in the local shopping arenas by multinationals such as Macy’s, yes, I agree on everbody’s rights with respect but I disagree that you have clearly stated it being Haraam is one’s interpretation. It’s not, it’s very bluntly mentioned in the Quran that it is and yes, who are we to judge anyone… We are nothing but merely specks under a microscope, all of us for that matter. Also I don’t get your idea of celebrating it?? I have not seen anyone celebrating Hijabis, they are being tolerated dear Hasan with respect Ofcourse, that is celebration in itself…. To maintain peace and celebrate any humans rights is the key here, to celebrate what is Haraam or not permissible in Islam is a completely different issue – you are confusing the two.
A very well elucidated piece of work!!

What your describing isn’t democracy. The Supreme Court said that the majority can’t use democratic institutions to rob a minority of equal access before the law. In other words, the votes themselves were invalid and should have never been allowed to happen.

Finally, not sure where you get the idea that the majority of Americans are against same sex marriage (as of this mattered one whit) when polling says about 60% of Americans are supportive of same sex marriage.

GregAbdul

so freedom is only for “innate characteristics” That’s funny. Mr. Sloan…you are arguing for freedom for a special few. You can dress it up all you want. I don’t have time for foolishness. The left has opened a pandora’s box and American history says it’s just a matter of time before this newly expanded freedom is expanded a little more.

Freedom for gays only…seriously?

shorttrooper

You either engage in homosexual acts or you don’t. Doing so is pretty clearly seen as a sin in Islam, as is any sexual act outside of marriage for that matter.

Simply having attraction towards the same sex is not a sin. Just as having attraction to the opposite sex is not a sin. That’s the way God made you. It’s how you act on that attraction that matters.

eaglesfan, love my Knee-gles

C’mon. That is an intellectual cop-out. There’s no ‘context’ behind a passage that endorses stoning homosexuals. None. You can’t make something so stupid and nefarious suddenly profound by pretending like Leviticus reads the same as Newton’s Principia and that all you need is to study it long enough for the truth to be revealed. There is no brilliant insight behind a story that involves angel rape and a father impregnating both his daughters. this is warped mythology dripping with bronze age superstitions. I appreciate the debate and even moreso appreciate your admitting that there are ‘bad parts’, but why is it not possible to renounce the unequivocally immoral aspects of religion while not turning your back on any of your culture, tradition, or beliefs? It’s maddening that you can prop up the positive quote about how murder is the killing of all mankind but yet still want to hold on to, and even assign value to, those unpalatable quotes that you obviously do not believe or adhere to.

Anonymous

I hope you don’t have any kids who you’re passing your poison on to. Being homosexual is not a sin. MARRYING as a homosexual is a sin. Get it right.

Gregory Peterson

I fail to see how Gay marriage is a sin if being Gay is not. What I do see is someone desperately trying to deny law minority within a minority adults what they allow for themselves.

eaglesfan, love my Knee-gles

Thank you for this non sequitor babble pulling quotes from a story that involves attempted angel rape, a father offering up his daughters to be raped, a woman turning to salt because she was curious, and a father later impregnating both of his daughters. This is exactly the nonsense that needs to be dismissed. Does this sound even remotely sane? This is where you’re taking your moral queues from?? Keep the happy, love your neighbor aspects and strike out this poor-man’s Lord of the Rings and everyone will get along on this world a whole lot better.

Anonymous

I don’t know why my comment is being held. Please read it if you can.

eaglesfan, love my Knee-gles

i don’t see it posted yet. i will certainly check back. and despite the clash of ideas, i’ve enjoyed the debate.

Anonymous

Islam teaches that homosexuals are called to be celibate. Gay marriage is a sin, but simply being who you are is not. Acting on impulses that are wrong is just that–wrong. Just like in any other situation where acting on impulses is wrong. Doesn’t mean they’re terrible people or that they don’t deserve a place in our community.

Anonymous

Religion (every religion) is perfect. Humans are not. The Quran itself says that we will not be able to understand everything that is in it, simply because we are humans and it’s not in our nature. Anyone knows murder is wrong. There is a lot of debate on those kinds of verses, and that’s why I believe that there is more there than meets the eye. I refuse to believe that God is fallible. While doubt is a good part of true faith, and I have my fair share of doubts, I know in the end that my thoughts about certain verses are not the end-all, be-all. There is something that I must be missing as to why it was written that way or what meaning it has.

LOL, Man are you even a Muslim? Do you know Arabic? Have you read the Quran? The Hadith? Being homosexual is the main disgusting sin, and MARRYING as homosexual is even a bigger sin, even the people of Lot weren’t MARRYING as a homosexual, they were just homosexual and yet, they deserved the punishment from God as the verses say.

So many brainwashed people here, I am not surprised now that 42% of American Muslims are with same-sex marriage.

dmx92145

There is no such thing as a liberal or conservative Muslim in Islam or before Allah. And following the Quran and Sunnah are not what led to the wars in Syria and Afghanistan, NOT following the Quran and Sunnah and man’s greed are what led to wars in Syria and Afghanistan.

When the courts overturned laws mandating segregation it contradicted the will of the people too. A Constitutional democracy ensures that unpopular minorities are protected. The First Amendment’s protections on speech, religion and assembly aren’t needed for well like speech, belief or groups.

Anonymous

Yup, I’ve read the Quran and I read it every day. It teaches me to love the oppressed. In this country, homosexuals are oppressed. I’m not saying I agree with them getting married, but you are clearly ignorant about your own religion if you think that BEING homosexual is a sin. If that’s the case, I dare you to become homosexual for a day. You can’t, right? So how can you condemn a person to hell based on the way they were born?

The people of Lot, as I recall, were laying with other men. That’s sex and therefore a sin. No one said that BEING something you were born with is a sin.

Gregory Peterson

I’m not a Muslim, but I’m fairly confident that the Prophet did not teach to oppress people, “homosexuals,” who didn’t exist until 19th Century European scientism first conceptualized them.

GregAbdul

I can only ask you to be rational. Liberal and conservative in the political context have meaning and certainly are not words I am making up. There are American Muslims who support the Republican party and there are many, like the two authors here, who are quite liberal. Brother (you sound like a man) this is not the place for us to air our differences. I only ask you acknowledge the obvious. A Saudi Muslim certainly does not see or herself as just another ordinary Muslim. You can live in Kingdom for 50 years and have 20 children and NONE of you, as immigrants will ever have citizenship. There is a barrier in many Muslim places that openly sets differences between Muslims. Don’t come to an American run open website that talks about all religions and pretend that there is only one Islam. Your arguments are not subtle and you address me and this forum as if we don’t know what goes on in Islam in the modern world in the age of the internet. Muslims love the truth. Insha Allah practice Islam in full view of and recognizing the truth and don’t think I am so ignorant you can make up an Islam for me to follow because you know something I don’t.

One more thing, saying that gay people could get married (to a member of the opposite sex) is just as pointless as saying that we don’t need the Americans with Disabilities Act because the wheel-chair confined can take the stairs just like anyone else.

It is every bit as much a denial of rights to set up and maintain legal frameworks that put de facto barriers as de jure ones for certain groups of people.

Then you are not a gay and I’m not talking about this, If you didn’t take any action and you just have the “attraction” than you didn’t do anything (as long as you didn’t show this “attraction”)..

But we are not talking about that, we are talking about “gay” people, who does take an action in homosexuality.

Gregory Peterson

“Homosexual acts” didn’t exist until the 19th Century, so you’re backward projecting your modern sense of heterosexual entitlement upon sacred writing to prove..your state of privilege as divinely mandated.

shorttrooper

If I’m incorrect than I retract. The last polls I remembered seeing said the opposite. (of course, so much of polling depends upon how a question is phrased, so we should take them all with a decent dose of skepticism.)

Banning same sex marriage is not robbing anyone of equal access before the law. Everyone was allowed to get “Married.” What we’re debating is the definition of married. Marriage was defined as a union between one man and one woman. Your sexual orientation didn’t matter. You could be a gay man and get married, you just had to get married to one woman, since that was the definition.

The government could just as easily define marriage as a union between two men and two women or between one man and one man only. It’s arbitrary and the government has the authority to define “marriage” however they want. Which is exactly what many states tried to do with their amendments. define it in a very specific way. Are you saying that the people couldn’t make a federal amendment to define marriage in a specific way?

(If anything, the ban on same sex marriage is sexist more so than homophobic. As a man, I don’t have the right to marry another man, a right that women have. Therefore I’m being discriminated against based on my sex, not my sexual orientation.)

eaglesfan, love my Knee-gles

But why must there be something missing? Why? If God has given you faculty to question and to think critically aren’t you offending him by not using those abilities? There is no sagacious reading of hateful scriptures no matter how hard one tries to redefine words or pretend like there’s a complex interpretation just beyond our grasp. If religion is perfect but humans are not, then wouldn’t it be wholly possible that you’re under a misapprehension about the purity of the text since these texts are so obviously not perfect? and following on the imperfections of the texts, doesn’t that allude to the fact that man had a very heavy hand in the creation of them? if god is peace and love, then why is there a need for violent, hate-filled passages? you cannot preach love on one page and on the next endorse the genocide of the Amalakites or the stoning of someone working on the sabbath. there is nothing numinous about this. if god filled you with a sense of morality, why not dig deep down and use that to un-cloud your vision and see moral truth?

You know, it’s very easy to get some texts from the Internet these days and publish them like if you were the long-waited Islam-cracker. Clearly you don’t even understand what God, religion, prophet, life, hereafter and angles mean, just Google for those things in Islam and see what they really mean.

Pew Research Poll (from earlier this year) puts support for gay marriage at 54%

“Banning same sex marriage is not robbing anyone of equal access before the law. Everyone was allowed to get “Married.” What we’re debating is the definition of married. Marriage was defined as a union between one man and one woman. Your sexual orientation didn’t matter. You could be agay man and get married, you just had to get married to one woman, since that was the definition.”

This is pretty laughable argument. Using this logic, we don’t need the Americans with Disabilities Act because wheelchair bound people can take the stairs.

It is every bit as much a denial of rights to set up and maintain legal
frameworks that put de facto barriers for certain groups of people as de jure barriers to them.

shorttrooper

Come again?

You seem to be saying the concept of “Homosexual acts” didn’t exist previously. So two men having sex with one another was simply seen as a natural part of sex. Or something. I’m not quite clear on what you’re trying to say.

Obviously same sex acts occurred throughout history. Different cultures and different times have had differing views and reactions to those actions. Some embracing. Some shunning.

It appears pretty clear that the Quran forbids these acts, as does the Hebrew Bible. One can contend that this is just a misinterpretation, but I think one has to do some eloquent mental gymnastics to interpret them the other way. Though I’m game to hear your arguments.

You didn’t even understand a word from what I am saying, in main points.: Some people may have attraction to same-sex, having that attraction is “ok” as AS LONG AS YOU DON’T TAKE AN ACTION SHOWING THAT ATTRACTION, it’s about “actions”, not about what you feel or what you think in your mind.

If you kissed, had sex, married a “creature” from your same-sex (or even animals!) then you are sinful, none knows what you feel or what you love or what you want to do, as long as you don’t do those same-sex-actions , it’s fine.

Btw, the Quran doesn’t teach you to “love” people who disobey your God (you wish guidance for them, but not “love”, love is bad word here) , if thats what you understood from the Quran then maybe you should spend some money on some Arabic courses and read it again in its origianl language.

eaglesfan, love my Knee-gles

the story comes from the Old Testament, of which I’ve read, so there is no reason to learn Arabic to read a 7th century retread. Now can you please, both sanely and in detail explain how it is moral for a man to offer up his daughters to be raped so as to spare angels from being raped? i can’t believe i’m even writing this. do you honestly believe this happened or is this some sort of parable? and if so, what is the lesson to be learned by this horribly wicked and surreal fable? And a follow up, can you offer any insight into why homosexuality is bad but incest involving a drunk father impregnating both of his daughters is ok?

zardana

They say when the end is near the truthful will be called liars and the liars will be called the truth for onceI agree with you for those who want to know the truth study religion Islam the proper way

Little Betty

johnval just speaks the truth about Muslim countries and the way they treat LGBTs.

Little Betty

How about Arab racism and Islamic supremacy and the murder of non-Muslims?

Narrated Ibn Abbas: The Prophet (peace be upon him) cursed effeminate men (those men who are in the similitude (assume the manners of women) and those women who assume the manners of men, and he said, “Turn them out of your houses.” The Prophet (peace be upon him) turned out such-and-such man, and ‘Umar turned out such-and-such woman.
Sahih Al-Bukhari – Book 72 Hadith 774

Anonymous

I said that doubt is part of true faith. If you blindly believe, you really don’t have any faith at all. That being said, you also have to recognize your limitations. As humans, we will never understand everything. We won’t come remotely close to understanding everything, the good and the seemingly bad. As for me being mistaken about the text being perfect, like I said, religion is perfect. The texts aren’t wrong. We are.

That’s what I’m saying. Because one preaches love and one supposedly preaches hate, we have to look deeper into those passages. There is a lot of debate as to what those passages actually mean, and only radicals take it literally.

Anonymous

That’s exactly what I said. YOU said that being gay is the sin. Which is clearly wrong. I already said that taking the action is wrong.

Lol, thanks for the advice! I think I know it better than you do though. We are supposed to love AND guide everyone. You on the other hand are preaching hate, which is what MY Islam does not teach.

Tavares Avery

Narrated AbuSa’id al-Khudri: The Prophet (peace be upon him) said: A man should not look at the private parts of another man, and a woman should not look at the private parts of another woman. A man should not lie with another man without wearing lower garment under one cover; and a woman should not be lie with another woman without wearing lower garment under one cover.
Sunan of Abu-Dawood – Book 31 Hadith 4007

Narrated Aisha, Ummul Mu’minin: Ibn AbuMulaykah told that when someone remarked to Aisha that a woman was wearing sandals, she replied: The Apostle of Allah (peace be upon him) cursed mannish women.
Sunan of Abu-Dawood – Book 32 Hadith 4088

I won’t speak of the Quran as it’s not my holy book, however much I respect it, but the “Hebrew Bible” of which Christians share only forbids some same-sex acts in some idolatrous situations, which was expanded extrabiblically to justify oppressing people who have a minority gender relationship orientations.

One thing we now know is that idolatry doesn’t make you Gay. Gay, however, does make life a little more interesting. Too bad you apparently like life really boring.

I’m hardly going to speak for Jews, but in general, they seem to be leading many other religions in full acceptance of LGBT people.

werter

You compared wrongly homosexuality with polygamy.
Polygamy is a union of many people in wedlock. Homosexuality is an orientation.
It would be correct to compare gay marriage with polygamy.

There are people who live in polyamoric relationship. It’s a fact. Who are you to deny them a right to get married? If love and equality are the only criteria, then I don’t know why they should be bypassed.

Don’t get me wrong. I’m against polygamy. And I oppose gay marriage, as well. And I have the luxury of not being a hypocrite.

phatkhat

Or else homeschooled with a curriculum that teaches that Moses was a founding father and all our laws are based on the bible.

phatkhat

Did you include a link? Hyperlinks on this site will cause your comments to be held indefinitely.

Malcom

Homosexuality is haram; it is zina. So is it, “practice your religion as long as it conforms to the prevaling liberal orthodoxy”. The prophet and his companions faced persecution for uttering the truth. The same is expected of us.

phatkhat

I don’t read it that way. I read it as being in agreement with the article. That when we want to abrogate civil rights for one minority/oppressed group, we end up abrogating all. If we allow the majority to decide what civil rights are, then all kinds of people will be deprived of them. We’d still have Jim Crow if it had been up to a popular vote here in the South. Here in Arkansas, I’m sure no one but a Christian would have the rights of citizenship if it were up for a vote.

TRUTHSEEKER50

[Ankabut 29:29] “What! You commit the immoral with males, and cut off
the roads; and you speak evilly in your gatherings?” So his people had
no answer except to say, “Bring the punishment of Allah upon us if you
are truthful!”

[Ankabut 29:30] He submitted, “My Lord! Help me
against these mischievous people.”

THIS VERSE FROM THE QUR’AN IS PROFOUND FOR TODAY’S TIME,
MANY OF THE GENERATIONS BEFORE HAVE CHALLENGED ALLAH’S DEGREE IN THIS
FASHION,BY COMMITTING HIDEOUS ACTS AND CHALLENGING ALLAH TO DO
SOMETHING ABOUT IT,KNOWING THEY WERE PRACTICING AND BEHAVING IN AN
UNGODLY MATTER. SO THEY MOCKED THE PROPHETS WHO WARNED THEM OF A SEVERE
PUNISHMENT FROM ALLAH FOR EXCEEDING THE LIMITS OF ALLAH AND SO THEY
PROMPT ALLAH TO BRING ABOUT HIS WRATH,WHICH HE DID. TODAY WITH THE
PASSING OF SAME-SEX MARRIAGE BY NATIONS,THE DEGREE AND JUDGEMENT IS THE
SAME!

35:43

[Due to] arrogance in the land and plotting of evil; but the evil plot
does not encompass except its own people. Then do they await except the
way of the former peoples? But you will never find in the way of Allah
any change, and you will never find in the way of Allah any alteration.

phatkhat

Actually, a majority of Americans, if you trust polls, DO approve of gays being granted the same right to marry their beloved as straights. About 60%. This majority will grow with time, as younger people are much more in favor than older people in general.

phatkhat

And all the Xtians sure they will be rounded up and sent to FEMA camps any day, now. Of course, those same Xtians would have no problems if it were Muslims being rounded up. See how that works?

phatkhat

The thing is, his argument is equally the conservative Christian (or Jewish) argument. Whatever you want to call the deity, it is the same one, and the deity’s laws are pretty much the same across all the Abrahamic religions. It is why some of us are so opposed to ANY fundamentalist religion – men think they speak for god, and decide to do exactly as you say – mass death.

phatkhat

Eh, at least in Christian theology, there is debate about whether or not the actual sin of Sodom and Gomorrah was homosexuality or something else, like a lack of hospitality to strangers.

Yea.. A man that doesn’t even understand the original language of the book is coming to teach me Islam 😀 “Love for all.. God is love” is a stupid definition for our job that some people try to inherit from Christianity to Islam, we don’t love everybody, in Islam, we love who deserve, and those who do sins and try to harm all people around them, are not.

Anonymous

Lol, there’s your problem. A person can be gay but not commit any acts like that.

LOL. Wow, you clearly don’t know the religion you claim to be so knowledgeable about. Thank goodness I don’t know you in real life.

Malcom

So basically, accept LBGT marriages or we will commit genocide against you! Nice threats.

Todd

And [We had sent] Lot when he said to his people, “Do you commit such immorality as no one has preceded you with from among the worlds?(80)Indeed, you approach men with desire, instead of women. Rather, you are a transgressing people.”(81) Al-Araf 80-81

Joan

Looks pretty clear to me. It’s sad to see so many Muslims embrace a sin, just so they feel like other minority groups may relate to them. A sin is a sin. No one is asking you to judge or persecute them. But to embrace their way of life, knowing what is explicity stated in the Quran, is plain pathetic.

Deflecting is a bad look on you. The poster actually posted verses from the Quran…what do you have in response, outside of a weak attempt at humor?

Akira

Homosexuality is a sin in islam.

Akira

You are right about not your place to tell him he’s not a muslim. But you are wrong homosexual act is a sin in Islam.

Akira

Most muslims who consider themselves to be moderate or liberals oppose gay marriage or gays in general. They see homosexual acts as sin and we talking about liberals that support liberal principles. That’s what conservatives and liberals in islamic nations have in common.

Tyler Janzen

If God or Allah wants everyone to only engage in heterosexual acts then why wouldn’t he have just given us all ‘normal’ heterosexual urges? If two women or men love each other and want to dedicate their lives to being with each other why would any god want to punish them for that? Love could never be a sin. The sin is to alienate people, and indirectly hurt them because they are different. Every person wants to love and be loved, and to have people that we care about as much as ourselves, and to have sex! That is to be human. To declare that people should have to deny themselves that fruit of life just because they are different than you is ignorant and cruel and I would hope you experience enough in your life to see the folly in this perspective. If accepting God means hurting people for being different than I want no part of it. I’m happy to consider any Muslim or Christian or atheist my brother (or sister) as long as he or she will fight for equality and love. We can gain strength from our differences, we just have to learn to work together.

phatkhat

Not what I said. At all. I said the Xtians are sure they will be persecuted for opposing “gay marriage” as well. They believe Obama is going to round them up and send them to camps.

Those SAME Xtians would be happy to see you and yours rounded up and sent to camps, whether or not you approve of homosexuals, because they do not like your religion.

I am an atheist in a hetero marriage. I have no dog in the hunt, so to speak. However, I do believe in equality under the law for all. You are free to believe in religion your own way, as are the Xtians. But you do not have the right in America to impose your religious tenets on everyone else by virtue of the law.

The point the author makes is that if you persecute another minority, it may come back to haunt you.

Joan

Agreed. Very sad, and even more sad is the easily influenced Muslims in awe of celebrity who will take this article as support to embrace homosexuality.

Akira

The point of the authors is to latch on to the struggle of the gay community. Muslims are not on CNN or FOX speaking out or for gay marriage.

LIke you said you don’t “have no dog in the hunt” will muslims don’t too gay marriage is not a muslim problem it is the law of the land.

Akira

No they will not support polygamy yet because it is not socially acceptable yet.

’46 one time hippy

If our country is to survive, this is the sensibility we will all need.

Akira

Marriage is voluntary social arrangement. If you support gay marriage you should not only support polygamist marriage but embrace it. Equal rights for everyone nothing wrong with 3 or more adults in a committed relationship getting married.

Muslim

Bullshit! Bullshit! Bullshit!… No matter what crap you say and how the hell you justify…it is a sin in Islam and thats it PERIOD!

Muslim

Cut the crap and read Quran, It is a SIN in Islam and you are a SINNER…

Anonymous

Homosexual ACTS are a sin in Islam, like you said I have already stated that. But BEING homosexual is not a sin.

Anonymous

We all have different tests. For some, being homosexual is their test from God. Others have their own struggles. Some are more difficult than others, but God also says that He doesn’t give anyone a burden greater than they can bear.

People think that just because you disagree with something, you hate that person or want to cause them pain. That couldn’t be further from the truth. Just because I disagree with gay marriage doesn’t mean I’m going to shun my homosexual brothers and sisters. I don’t care what you are. If you’re nice to me, I’ll be nice to you. I also don’t care if it’s legal. I think especially in a country like America, which claims separation of church and state, that it SHOULD be legal. It’s not my place to tell someone what to do. But that also doesn’t mean I have to agree with what they do.

Wan Lee

started to say just that but saw you beat me to it, well done.

asm

So Ayesha, if you’re a slave, which is ok in Islam, and I’m your master, it is ok if I sleep with you right? Qur’an (23:5-6) – “..who abstain from [censored], except with those joined to them in the marriage bond, or (the captives) whom their right hands possess…”.

If you disagree, then you also pick and choose like what these 2 guys did. Also, if you disagree, then this verse served you right :

[Quran 4:13-14] And whosoever disobeys Allah and His Messenger, and transgresses His limits, He will cast him into the Fire, to abide therein; and he shall have a disgraceful torment.”

Allah is amazing. He will cast you into the FIre if you disobey his words.

Val Rosa

I agree with you about humans having limited capacity to understand everything. Reminds me of the story about St Augustine meeting a boy digging a hole in the sand and trying to fit the ocean into it.

Then again, we should continue to try to fill as much as we can.

Fired, Aren’t I

Most muslims who consider themselves to be moderate or liberals oppose gay marriage or gays in general.

No they don’t.

Fired, Aren’t I

You would think hardline Muslims would be in support of this then, since Islam allows polygamy.

Interestingly enough, African nations are HARDLY bastions of gay liberation, yet many already allow polygamy. Does the slope also slip the other way? :-p

Fired, Aren’t I

Nope, freedom for all, including gays. “All men are created equal.” And the equal protection clause of the Constitution guarantees this across all states.

Fired, Aren’t I

How about Jewish racism and subjugation (and yes sometimes murder) of non-Jewish Israelis, especially in the West Bank? So much for moral superiority.

Fired, Aren’t I

Learn the Constitution. The “will of the people” has no bearing on whether or not the citizens of the US deserve equal protection under civil law.

Like someone said before, you’d be pretty eager for the will of the people to be overturned if they voted that all members of a certain group to which you belonged were to be kicked out of the country.

Akira

Yes they do just go to any gathering.

Fired, Aren’t I

Americans support same-sex marriage at about 60%, and I think it’s been a simple majority for several years now. This number has been steadily increasing for the past decade, and because at least 70% of young people support same-sex marriage, it is reasonable to expect that said support will only increase in percentage.

Fired, Aren’t I

I have.

Akira

You not being honest my friend.

Malcom

Makes sense. But I believe homosexuality is a sin, I believe fornication is a sin. Good will judge the homosexual and the fornicator in the next life. God knows best that perhaps their good deeds and faith will outweigh the bad. Does that mean I will advocate for laws that will give jail time to these folks? No I will not. But in my heart I will consider such actions a sin. That is my right as a human being to follow my conscious and obey my religion. God bless.

Fired, Aren’t I

Ok, whatever makes you feel better.

Malcom

Ameen. Homosexuality and riba are the 2 big sins confronting the believer

Little Betty

Certainly any racism is wrong. But don’t confuse situations if Israeli Jews act in self defense when attacked by Arabs. Why don’t you ask about the subjugation of Arabs by the Palestinian Authority or a Hamas? The Palestinians could have had their state long ago. They don’t want a state along side Israel. They want a state instead of Israel. There are 56 Muslim states. We don’t need another one. Don’t forget that there are Muslims in the Israeli army who love Israel and sacrifice their lives for the state. Take a look at Arab media and you’ll see the lies about Israel, false accusations, distortions, etc, designed to whip up Muslim hate and incite violence to kill. Nobody holds Muslims responsible for their behavior when they murder other Muslims and non -Muslims AROUND THE WORLD. Pay attention to the data. The statistics don’t lie.

Akira

It doesn’t make me feel better it’s reality. Otherwise this article would not be necessary. And if you think homophobia doesn’t exist even amongst liberals you are ignorant on subject.

Little Betty

Homosexuality is a sin in Judaism too but Israel still has one of the biggest gay parades in the world. Gay Arabs feel safe in Tel Aviv because it’s one of the most gay friendly cities.

Little Betty

And as long as there is intolerance in Islam for those who are different, Muslims will stay stuck.

Little Betty

No one has yet to come back from hell to tell us about it so there’s no proof in your theory. You may want to devote less time to hate and judgment and more time to contributing to humanity for a better world.

Little Betty

There are many racists who are Christian – not just white ones.

Anon

“God also says that He doesn’t give anyone a burden greater than they can bear”…
What about the thousands of homosexuals that have committed suicide or were flat out murdered? Isn’t that evidence that it was more than they could bear?

anonymous

The right wingers are not against gay rights, they are against the supreme court taking the legislative role. The Democrats were in the majority in Congress for 6 years and they failed to make gay marriage legal and they had to go to a conservative court for an answer and they got what they wanted.

This propaganda is beyond demented, disgusting and manipulative. In the Nation of Islam, we are taught to obey those in authority over you as long as it does not conflict with your religion.
Homosexuality/Same Sex/LGBT ‘Lifestyle’ conflicts with the Law of Allah (God). Any act that harm the institution of Family/Marriage that God set-up is Haram (Forbidden or unlawful according to Islam) and is punishable by death. That is how sacred the institution of Family (Man & Woman) is to God.
Islam is a way of life. Islam means entire submission to the Will of God. Islam is a theocracy (A political unit governed by a deity (or by officials thought to be divinely guided) not a democracy (A political system ruled by the people, either directly or through elected representatives. Majority rules, regardless to how immoral or corrupt they maybe).

A true Muslims already treat others as they would like to be treated, however when a sinful act is committed, that is crossing the line.
Same Sex marriage is crossing that line. Now America would like to export Her way of life, her culture, which is total disobedience to the Will of God,
These two ‘intellectuals’ are pawns of the Global Elite, willingly or unwillingly. Their love for America is greater than their lover for God’s way.

S N Smith

Dipping in to the cool-aid again, Xavi?

Akira

What does Israel have to do with topic of American Muslims?

Habiba

While I agree no one is going to hell because they’re gay, No Arab feels safe in Tel Aviv. That’s bullshit. Just because you’re gay in Tel Aviv doesn’t make you any less of an opressed Arab.

Anonymous

Not at all. Just because you think you can’t handle something doesn’t mean that you can’t. I think we’ve all been in situations where we absolutely feel like we’re about to lose our minds. That doesn’t mean that we aren’t capable of handling it though. Some struggles are much harder than others to deal with as well, but that doesn’t mean that we can’t do it.

Akira

There is no such thing as hardline muslims. There is practicing muslims and non practicing muslims.

And polygamy is not a tenet of islam. Even in majority muslim country polygamy is rare. It’s not something muslims are fighting for.

Muslims don’t care that’s the problem. You don’t see them protesting it was evangelical christians and black churches that are opposed to gay marriage even scientology. Anyone defending gay marriage should also defend the rights of polygamist. Since we want to achieve equal rights for everyone.

Akira

How about Turkey muslim majority country and has gay parade. There is no murders in Cairo or Gaza or Dubai or Istanbul since there is gay parade in istanbul.

Akira

They don’t murder them in Dubai or Istanbul or Cairo or Gaza. Do they discriminate sure. Do they murder them absolutely not.

Akira

That’s funny how you said they could of had their own state but “we don’t need another one” that just made me laugh and makes you sound nuts.

كريم فيصل

I keep my right to have the emotion to reject and dispute against the decision, and if I did not I better look for another faith coz keeping it will not benefit my anyway. And by the way there is no other interpretation. If you another one from your invention That is your problem.

johnval

Really? Do you follow the news? Just a week ago the attempt to have a gay parade in Istanbul was answered with tear gas, arrests and violence by the police, government and bystanders. And I would love to see what would happen to you if you appear to be gay in Gaza….give me a break..

Amir Meshkat

Partly agree:
We have to fight for the right of others to live their lives as freely as we want to live ours, not because we are minorities, but because it is right.

Hasan Alsawaf

Tolerance , aceptance of others and celebrating differences is what make America unique and beautiful. After all, it’s about freedom

DKeane123

But if you try saying something like that on TV you may end up in Guantanamo. – I hope that was an attempt at a bad joke.

Safi ud Din Khan

where does quran or any authentic hadith says homosexual marriages are allowed or even homosexuality is allowed ??? … plz give reference

lmao, You can’t be a gay if you don’t do the acts, then why would you call yourself a gay? All people on Earth have “feelings” toward some bad things sometimes, other-sex, same-sex, animals, but no one specify them under any label, unless they take the action, because no one will even know them unless they take an action.

The funny thing is, you don’t even know the language of the religion and you are here to say that I don’t understand it 😀 I’m dying hard here of laugh.

He didn’t post anything from the Quran, actually I am the only one who did as you can see, and all what he said was just some lies he grabbed from the Internet because he couldn’t understand the verses (like what most people do, sometimes you find yourself discussing Google, not the people) , Lot’s people didn’t know that they were angles, he didn’t offer his daughters to rape, and there’s no woman to turned to salt just because she was curious, I’m not the one who should get the evidence to proof that this is wrong, he is the one who should get the evidence that it’s true.

Safi ud Din Khan

ur entire article is bogus in quran God clearly says that who a person could marry and who it cannot in (Quran 24:31) ……… and a marriage b/w two males or two females is not a marriage according to islam …. if it is then present ur proof…. show the hadith and quranic verses which says so

Faux-News

Why should Muslims embrace homosexuality ? Thats outright ridiculous. Homosexuality is a sexual practice, not some race or culture.

I don’t live in US, don’t want to live in US nor want to live like them, nor bother how they live. But rationally the arguments buttressed here are based on loads of false cliches. Your comment on not denying their civil rights assumes homosexuality is a civil right. This is the subject of debate for all these years in the first place which was than breaking all democratic procedure judged by 5 out of 9 judges elected by Obama. 5 Americans getting to define what and what is not civil rights for 300 million Americans, on top of it want 1.5billion Muslims to embrace it.

DKeane123

Salafism is a pretty literal interpretation of the Quran. People like ISIS are essentially doing there absolute best to emulate the actual actions of the prophet. A simple search for Quran verses supporting ISIS will bring up all the relevant passages that support oppression of people that aren’t the right kind of believers.

Now a lot of people will point out (rightfully so) that this ignores a thousand plus years of Islamic jurisprudence. But when you imagine yourself as being able to understand the word of God directly, who needs tradition?

Fired, Aren’t I

It’s not “self defense” when Jewish settlers burn down Palestinian olive groves. And it’s not “self defense” when the occupying force – the IDF – refuses to do anything to keep that from happening. And it’s not “self defense” to force West Bank Palestinians to use separate roads and line up for hours to get through checkpoints just to go to their jobs.

Israel is supposed to be better than Hamas and the PA when it comes to treatment of Palestinians. Saying “they’re not as bad as Hamas” is like saying “Russia isn’t as bad as North Korea”. Sure they don’t murder them en masse, but why is civil oppression any better?

Considering how hated they are in the Western world, I’d say Muslims are held quite a bit responsible for crimes committed by a few. Of course, it’s silly to hold the whole of Muslims responsible if most of the people being killed are other Muslims – yes? Yes.

Akira

How about the 11 years before that with no tear gas? And since you follow the news so much show the killings of gays in Istanbul and Dubai.

you obviously do not understand liberal democracy, as it is manifested in constitutional republics, like the US.

Hint: it does not mean goverment by plebiscite.

Jim Reed

You are looking at it wrong. It is not about embracing homosexuality, but rather about ending the practice of discriminating against them.

Gregory Peterson

“Homosexuality” was coined in the late 1860s, if memory serves, in a pamphlet that protested Prussian vice laws. It was picked up by sexologists, then morphed into an erroneous psychiatric diagnosis tainted with observer bias and such.

It’s a word which has been much abused, like “race,” and with a lot of discredited scientific baggage….like “race.” It’s also a word that’s become too broad in it’s meaning and near pejorative to be all that useful…well, it still seems useful to people who feel a need for handy scapegoats.

That’s why, I think, that “homosexuals” have become “Gays.” Who wants to be labeled and defined by people of obvious ill will?

Sure it’s been documented that animals have same-sex sexual intercourse, but…we’re the intensely social animals who are humans. Our human relationships are just that, and not like other animals, who march to other tunes…so Aquinas is wrong to compare human intercourse with animal intercourse and draw moral meanings from that. He’s not commenting on sexual relations, he’s really commenting on patriarchal male privilege and supremacy.

We have sexual orientations, they have sex as hormones, instincts and opportunity enables. Well, maybe Bonobos are what we would call bisexual in their social relationships, but…Bonobos are Bonobos…they do what Bonobos do.

Chocoholic

This goes out to the Muslims who have studied the Quran. It clearly states that even the supporters of homosexuality are considered sinners. I only speak on behalf of the Muslims. This article shares a quotation from the Quran. Very rightly, Islam is a religion of peace and harmony and talks about equal rights for all. As a matter of fact Muslims living in the US are quite happy that is why they gave gelled in so well, but when it comes to homosexuality, it is in the Quran only that Prophet Lut(AS) wife who encouraged homosexuality was also amongst the ones who was punished.
This is again a message for the Muslims, be it in the US, Tel Aviv or whereever in the world Islam doesnt change. You might listen to Kanye West and watch GOT and attend concerts – what is wrong is wrong. There is no gray area. Thats a separate story and a person might repent, that is between him and Allah. But to support homosexuality and gay marriages goes beyond the realm of Islam, finding a middle ground is simply satisfying yourself and altering Islam.
If you really are so interested in actually supporting a cause for equality and for the sake of freedom – every consider thinking about the innocent people in Gaza that are bombed by the same freedom speakers and equality supporters…what do you have to say to that? It all comes down to staying away from the bigger issues out there and fighting for someone elses cause. And just to add on to the part about gay Muslims. Im noone to authorize anyones religious beliefs but one of our basic religious belief is strictly against homosexuality. Judaism or other religions may agree or disagree but I speak on behalf of Muslims.

Gregory Peterson

I am saying that “homosexual acts” didn’t exist previously…just as interracial “acts” didn’t exist prior to the modern-era. Those are backward projections. The ancients had their own social constructs to abuse.

I won’t speak of the Quran, but the Bible condemned “acts” associated with idolatry and which was seen to threaten patriarchal concepts, beliefs and sexual misunderstandings.

For instance, they didn’t know about the existence of sperm cells and the human ovum. They seemed to think that life began at the moment of conception as a sort of unformed child, which the womb, if it accepted it, knitted, formed, the child…ideally, a male child.

If you believe that only males created life…well, that colors your understandings of relationships, and obviously makes you very sexist.

But we now know that life began eons ago. We now know that males don’t create life as an unformed child, but are partners, with the easy role at that, in perpetuating life.

We now know that human sexual relations aren’t primarily about procreating, but are about creating the humans bonds that, other-sex/same-sex/geriatric sex etc, are needed in maintaining the complex social fabric and networking that we humans need to raise our children if we have children and help care for our aged and ill.

I’ve always said that Christianity needs a theology of the human ovum along the lines of Paul’s gospel of the foreskin.

Jim ‘Prup’ Benton

Actually, unlike the Christian Bible, the Jewish Bible does not pretend to be consistent. It is, like the Constitution, a ‘living document’ and the Jewish God has no problem in displaying a changed mind. (For example, follow the treatment of Levirite (sp) marriage, first demanded sp strongly that God smites those who refuse (Onan) — then ‘suggested’ but with an easy ‘out’ that was universally taken — then condemned so strongly that it is attacking an example that gets John the Baptist slain.)
‘
I wonder how many people who use the Sodom and Gomorrah story – either as instruction or as an example of the Iron age barbarism of the Bible — are even aware of Judges 19-20. The only differences in the story are that the ‘old man’ is not named, except as being from the tribe of Benjamin, and he offers both his own daughter AND the man’s concubine to the mob. They accept, and rape the concubine so harshly that she dies.
‘
Then you see how God, the writer, or the ‘tribes of Israel’ feel THIS time. (“Adonai” even speaks in his own words.)
‘
I won’t ‘spoil the suspense’, mostly because it is one of the best ‘battle chapters’ in the book. (And maybe someone knows why it was stressed that the 700 great marksmen who “could sling a stone at a single hair and not miss’ were all left-handed?)
‘
As I’ve said many times, the reason that, as an atheist, I respect Judaism so much more than most forms of Christianity is that (theoretically) no Jew should ever say ‘The Bible says it. That settles it.’ For Judaism, the Bible is a book of questions, not a book of answers, and the questions always leave room for deeper answers to be found as the debate goes on.
‘
(It’s also why the barbarism of the stories written about what were, in fact, barbaric tribes doesn’t bother me so much, or the Bible’s frequent use of animals, bushes, etc. as ‘God’s sockpuppets.’
‘
(On the other hand, Mark 4:20, where Jesus clams he speaks in parables so that his hearers won’t understand, because if they did, they’d repent and be saved — now that is a truly ugly idea — and one that needs to be faced by those who claim ‘Jesus came to bring salvation to all.’ That is NOT what Mark’s version of Jesus says.”

Jim ‘Prup’ Benton

I disagree, entirely, but gave you a thumbs up, because you have EVERY right to feel as you do, to follow — as far as your own actions and those who you may advise — what you believe is true. And you, unlike so many others, realize that there is a difference between your actions and feelings and those of a nation of 300 million plus, who have a vast variety of beliefs, and that you have neither the ability nor the desire to force that nation to follow your beliefs.

Amir Sohrabi

Having a homosexual sex orientation is not a sin but acting upon those urges is definitely a sin as the Quran teaches when it explains the story of the prophet Loot. One may ask how God has put some sinful urges in a human being and expect him not to act upon them. Well the answer is not that hard. This is in parallel with other teachings of Islam when it ordains h

happyhomo

This article honestly brought me to tears.

Ahmad Barghouti

You 2 brothers share idiocy as well as dna….best of luck facing God cuz u didnt wanna stand out n hated on

Moslim

I think if you are a gay then be so, it’s your choice, but don’t mix Islam with such an act, Isalm, Christian and Jush are clearly stating that this homosexuality and gay lesbian act is totally forbidden no doubt you can go and read in Tourah, Bible and Quran, now it’s up to you either to accept it or you can do whatever you want to do, it’s a free land and free speech and its your call

Ali

I have one problem. You have quoted a sentence to prove your claim. Like terrorists are taking one quote to justify the action.
And about gay God give Adam a woman to live beside him not another man.

shondhani

Homosexuality is a sin in Islam. We understand! But what’s the solution? Anyone who wishes Is not gay. Why the attraction between the two same sex to have a scientific explanation. But what Islam says? what is the solution?

Ash

I do agree with you. I and You don’t commit that sin. Gambling, drinking, and above all lying is a great sin as well. If not most some of us do these sins. Let them be what they want to be. Accept the person as an individual with rights same as yours.

Jason

People, wake up…religion is man-made. God is a myth. It’s like arguing about the Tooth Fairy’s views over the those of the Easter Bunny. Try simply being human for once.

Chip R.

I loved this article; it shows tolerance. However, I don’t know what’s more awkward – seeing Muslims against the ruling or seeing Muslims quote the Quran saying “hey it’s okay – we should be tolerant”. It’s been noted in many places in the Holy Book that homosexuality is a big sin and is forbidden. For your quote, I can show you many more against it. Here: “Indeed, you approach men with desire, instead of women. Rather, you are a transgressing people … And We rained upon them a rain [of stones]. Then see how was the end of the criminals.” (Quran 7:80-84). I don’t even have to bring up the Hadiths. Don’t get me wrong: I agree with the ruling in that everyone should have equal rights but suggesting it is tolerated within the Quran is not correct.

dmx92145

There actually is only one Islam. But unfortunately there are ignorant people like yourself who judge the religion by other human beings instead of what the religion actually teaches us through revelation. All I can say is live your life by whatever beliefs you want. Allah will judge us all in the end.

Ajit Khan

To Reza Aslan, To Reza Aslan,
would you mind explain this “We disagree with your interpretation” or describe your interpretation.
I totally agree to your this point that “Remember that whole God is merciful and compassionate thing? That extends to all people, not just those who are straight.” But dont you think we should just pray that Allah may have marcy on them insted celebrating this because as a muslim we believe that Christians, hindus and all of them are our brothers and sisters (not gays or lesbians) just following the wrong message.
You cant modify islam or change what it said, all we can do pray for their marcy and get close to them so that we can help them to understand “if it is genetic, is the god’s will to test you with different difficultly”. This “different difficultly” describes islam as well, none of us were sent with equal opportunity i was born a muslim my brother was as a Christian. So its all about how you submit yourself to all mighty Allah as being in the difficulties were chosen by your creator himself.
Brother, we were not sent to celebrate or fight for others rights, thats optional, we all came for a different purpose.
We need not to make our friend’s enemy a my enemy, we would rather decide based on right or wrong.
We wount hate them cos we dont, we love them to face the world because they came with different difficultly.
After all Love really does win.

David Patterson

A beautiful article! Thank you Reza and Hasan! My husband is a Muslim and I’m a Christian. I joke with my husband that the scandal in his family is that he married a Christian. My favorite line from your piece, “Standing up for marginalized communities, even when you disagree with them, is not just the right thing to do, it’s the Muslim thing to do.” In addition to loving this sentence as it is, I love it for another reason — that you could easily switch out the word Muslim for Christian, Hindu, Jewish, etc. Alhamdulillah! (Praise God! or something like that!)

KM

Free will

Jeremy Rawley

LBGT rights must take priority over the rights of Muslims, Christians, and other homophobic religions. We are a secular republic, not a democracy. We are a country of laws, not men, and our Constitution is the Queen Mum of all laws. The rule of law states that the rights of gays trump religious beliefs as per the welfare, science & useful arts, and necessary & proper clauses (Article I, Section 8); the full faith and credit clause (Article IV); the First Amendment’s establishment clause; and the Fourteenth Amendment’s equal protection clause.

Now if they’d also ditch that ban on pork, that’d also be great. How and why do they put up with that? FOOD IS FOOD! Fuck your faith, fuck your food taboos, and fuck the horse they came in on! Shut up and eat some bacon!

Jerry Krause

Not since the civil rights movement led by Dr. Martin Luther King Jr. and before that the American Revolution 1775-76, has there been such a determination to correct a wrong. The U.S. Supreme Court in its recent decision redefining “marriage” will test the will of the people to do just that. As far back as the beginning of time marriage has been between a man and a woman (cf. Genesis 2:21-24). But perhaps the court’s ruling did not necessarily redefined marriage. In the narrow 5-4 vote Justice Kennedy wrote: “The court now holds that same-sex couples may exercise the fundamental right to marry.” Can that be interpreted as “marry” in the verb sense, and not having to call it a “marriage” in the noun sense? Saying, for example, married into “civil union” would not necessarily redefine marriage. Might the will of the people want to get behind and reinforce that thought? After all, it is very possible these past months leading up to the court decision the LGBT community may have moved too quickly, forcing too much onto the rest of us, to be able to maintain their position as they see it today. (7-8-2015)

Abdi

Lol Aslan i think highly of you but i was not expecting this one. There is no difference in the interpretation of the Quran. God is clear about the issue, its black and white, homosexuality is a sin as murder and theft is. Now, gays are humans they deserve respect and dignity as any other fellow humans. They deserve all rights and aspiration like everyone but they should know what they are doing is unnatural and sin. It will always be that way and most importantly, God will always win.

Raf

Anonymous, hypothetically, if there was a legitimate Islamic State with all the proper conditions met, would you be in support of Sharia law, only within the confines of that Islamic State?

Anonymous

Like I wrote, I don’t support a system of religious law. Because even in the confines of a legitimate Islamic State, you will still have people who practice the same religion differently. Everyone has their own interpretations and their own relationship with God. So I don’t think any country should employ religious law.

Visitor

Hypocrites existed then and they exist now, like the writers of this
article. They take a verse not related to homosexuality and try to
justify it. The wife of Prophet Lut (Lot) supported homosexuality also,
and she too was destroyed along with those gays. Guess what will happen
to you so called Muslims who support homosexuality?! Here are some
Quranic verses on what the Quran really says about homosexuality.

“And
(remember) Loot (Lot), when he said to his people: ‘Do you commit the
worst sin such as none preceding you has committed in the ‘Aalameen
(mankind and jinn)? Verily, you practise your lusts on men instead of
women. Nay, but you are a people transgressing beyond bounds (by
committing great sins)’”
(Quran 7:80-81)

“Verily, We sent
against them a violent storm of stones (which destroyed them all),
except the family of Loot (Lot), them We saved in the last hour of the
night”

(Quran 54:34)

“And (remember) Loot (Lot), when he
said to his people: ‘You commit Al‑Faahishah (sodomy the worst sin)
which none has preceded you in (committing) it in the ‘Aalameen (mankind
and jinn)’”

(Quran 29:28)

Here is what the Prophet of Islam says about homosexuality:

“The
Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) said: “… cursed is
the one who has intercourse with an animal, cursed is the one who does
the action of the people of Loot.”

(Narrated by Ahmad, 1878.)

Deane

Amen! No free Gays without free Muslims (and visa versa).

Victor Alafia

Alla Ekbaaar!! Izlam has been truly liberated by 2 liberal geniuses from Amreekkaa!! This is a revolution in legal philosophy that beats Abu Hanifa, Imam Shafii, and Imam Ghazzali!! Shaikh-of-Islam, Hasan Minhaj, and Grand-Ayatollah Reza Aslan have spoken!! And they are absolutely right!! Muslims must be the stupidest people in the history of mankind if took them 1,400 lunar years to figure out the true definition of marriage!!

Victor Alafia

Great point!! If God wanted us to NOT steal or lie or cheat or kill, why did he create liars, murderers, cheaters, and criminals??

Victor Alafia

How do you know that homos didn’t exit till 19th century?

Victor Alafia

Reza Aslan : When you redefine scripture and marriage for Muslism in the 21st Century, what you’re really saying is that Muslims have to be the stupidest people in the world because it took them 1,300 years to figure out what their scripture is really saying and and it took them 1,300 years to figure out what marriage is and it took them 1,300 years to learn how to accept LGBT. You’re insulting the 1,300 year legal tradition and some of the greatest legal minds in the history of humanity.

mrshaami

It is a SIN … don’t try to alter Islam and Its teachings…

MahmudH

“No one is asking you to change your beliefs. If you feel your faith tells you that homosexuality is haram, fine.”

That’s obviously untrue, lots of people get very upset when a religious person says they view some types of sexual activity as immoral, they regard expressing such opinions as discrimination and they’ll try and hound you from your job for being a homophobe. But taking this at face value, what does this mean? If you are okay with Muslims seeing homosexuality as a sin, how is “embracing” the gay community different from tolerating them? I’ve nothing against hugging anyone, but I don’t view that as a political act.

Islam is the combination of theistic faith and the principles of natural reason. The morality of Islam closely follows what is healthy for us physically and intellectually. That’s why we’re now in a month of fasting, to learn self discipline, which is sadly lacking in society generally. And even when Ramadan is over, no pork, no alcohol, no non-halal sex. Because life is better this way.

Their message was to muslims in America who better start living according to western ideals, if you don’t like it you are free not to move to the west and also please, don’t demand the west to treat muslims nicely if you can’t treat gays nicely either 😉

And yet muslims keep running away from muslim countries and often move to countries where gay marriage is accepted. Funny enough the countries with gay marriage have been some of the most prosperous ones.. So weird, Allah must be blind I guess to not notice that :p

I do’t see how two people getting married should seriously concern other peope but fine.. Also many cultures in the world have had polygamous unions, same-sex unions and so on.. The definition of marriage has changed so much over the years

I think you’re misacknowledged misha, the west doesn’t hate on us ‘cuz we’re a minority, they hate on us because its money to them. Also for political reasons because israel has a prophecy to expand their territory from the euphrates to the nile. Not because muslims are ‘oppressive’. Also because we’re one of the most devout religion on this earth now, and for the last 10-15 years it’s been a constant brainwash to make people hate religion in general, and so, tying terrorist attacks to muslims (religion). Even though, 94% of terror attacks from 1980 to 2005 weren’t muslims (according to the FBI). According to the uni. of north carolina, since 9/11, muslims were to blame for the lives of 37 americans, comparing that to 190,000 people murdered. So why is there a link between muslims and terrorism? to justify the above noted points.

Steven Bannister

Likewise, you are not free to force religious people to participate in ceremonies which conflict with their beliefs. Can we agree to that?

KW

You are contradicting yourself. Islam is perfected. It is a complete system for our lives including laws (halal/haram). Also in a real legitimate Isamic State we would have a Caliph who would be responsible for directing the muslims to an equal practice among all Muslim. So again you are making no sense.

Anonymous

Lol people like you, who don’t actually read anything that I’m saying, are the epitome of ignorance. I wrote that I don’t care what anyone else does, which you would see if you actually opened your eyes. Thanks for your input though 😉

Anonymous

Not the point. Even though Islam is perfect, people practice it in different ways. One woman may interpret “modesty” to mean full niqab, another may just think it means hijab, another may not even think hijab is required. Even if our religion is the same, the details are interpreted differently by all. Having one system that forces everyone to practice EXACTLY the same way is wrong. We all have the same religion but different relationships with God. It’s not fair of a government to take our special relationships with God away.

Anonymous

And by the way, genius, the difference between me and ISIS is that even if someone disagrees with me, I don’t kill them. Is that your go-to argument? That if someone doesn’t believe in something you do, you compare them to ISIS?

Gregory Peterson

“Homosexual” wasn’t conceptualized until the late 1860s, and if memory serves, first appeared in a pamphlet protesting Prussian vice laws. It’s a word which wasn’t much used until the 20th century.

So people were using different social constructs before that time, mostly based upon sexist models of masculine ‘active’ and feminine ‘passive.’ A masculine, ‘active’ man who had same-sex sexual relationships wouldn’t have been considered to be was latter called ‘homosexual.’

Of course there weren’t ‘heterosexuals’ before the late 1860s either, even if the majority of adults had what we would now call a ‘heterosexual’ relationship.

If someone dictates how you must live your life yeah, you’re pretty close to them

Anonymous

Well, again, your point is useless because you haven’t actually read anything that I said.

MahmudH

Harassment, ie shouting at people, is a bad thing whatever you are shouting.

Claiming people are terrorists or murderers or paedophiles or rapists is a criminal accusation, and more than defamation, it’s very likely to lead to violence. It is legitimate to say people making malicious claims like this should be punished.

However, the fact that you disagree with someone else’s opinions and beliefs about religion and sexual morality should not provoke you into calling for censorship.

Lol! You’re not oppresive at all hahaha that’s why a little girl was amost sentenced to death for burning a book adn why gays can’t have rights? xd
You’re totally not oppresive! hahaha
Also sare us the Israel talk!
Most western countries are critical of further Israeli expension, it doesn’t bring any benefit to us, only headaches.
As for link between muslims and terrorism it’s because most people are ignorant and assume terrorism to be an islamic thing while ignoring there are active christian terrorist groups responsible for beomings, kidnaping and rapes in Africa and India for example.

However don’t try to appeal to that on me xD

I’m not islamophobic, I treat the delusion you call islam with the same cotempt I treat christianity xD

Muslims can’t demand rights while saying gays can’t have rights, simple, and that was my point

Robert

People were being denied rights under the previously existing laws. The government extends a ridiculous amount of rights to married straight couples which were unavailable to “married” gays (e.g. the ability to put one’s spouse on a family health insurance plan).

Also, civil right for African Americans were not desired by a good amount of “the people” as you put it. We had to have a war to begin to right that wrong. 200+ years later, I think we can agree that treating different races with respect and dignity is more important than upholding outdated and ignorant ideologies that may have been held by a majority.

It disgust me that we as a people are so short sighted that we have to incrementally give rights to groups that should have had them all along.

Should it call for you to actively engage in trying to make the law to suit your beliefs though and therefore deny people the right to marry?

MahmudH

Allah is not only above the highest, He is also below the lowest. He sends the rain upon the just and the unjust alike. America isn’t the only nation to become rich thanks to God’s mercy, so did Saudi Arabia, and lots of American’s travel there to work. But I guess you aren’t so fond of their social policies?

Yeah, not allowing women to drive and sentecing gays to death is pretty bad if you ask me.
As for America, I hardly look up to America as an example!

America is pathetic in the sense that it does not distribute its wealth eually and focuses only on Imperial wars rather than education and healthcare.

And yeah, Saudi economy is so good that it rellies mostly on slave work from exploited ofreign labourers, its education system so terrible you rely on foreign professionals, and the economy only stands afloat thanks to oil, which won’t last forever 😉

Too bad the wealth focuses only on part of the population

MahmudH

If you disagree with the nature of what marriage is then you won’t see it as an equal right.

These days most people in English speaking countries see marriage as an expression of romantic love, which is why the gay marriage campaign was successful.

However in earlier times marriage was about fertility and child bearing, so people who still see it that way won’t view it as a matter of equality, but of truth. From this point of view gay marriage is like giving pensions to young people, or maternity leave to the childless. Not at all equal.

osamahkiwan

Yes, the US bombing and destruction of Iraq’s infrastructure and support for an apartheid state state like Israel is your idea of being civilized . Give me me break.

Marriage is a contract now and it changed entirely from what it used to be!

In the past marriage was basically a commercial exchange, and as far as I know infertile people were not in modern times banned from getting married.

What marriage is changed over the years. If in your mind marriage should be ebtween people who don’t love each other just for the sake of having children I feel sorry for you then xD

Ahmad Barghouti

I believe we can have a discussion/argument like adults, not kids, without all the sarcasm and disrespect. Oppression happens worldwide, and if we’re to compare, the west has the highest rates of anything negative that can cross your mind, highest rates of homicides, drug abuse, racism, familicides and I can go on and on. So they should look in the mirror, and fix their own problems before they start “worrying” about the rest of the world. What I said was, they’re not fighting us BECAUSE we’re oppressive, they’re fighting us for political reasons and monetary gain. Meaning, its not the reason, not denouncing that there is oppression in the mid east, and the rest of the world…..ps. having the west, nowwww, being critical about israels’ actions isnt really something to justify their constant support for them. The 2,000 civillians killed in gaza last year was with the wests’ help in ammunition and funding. So them being critical means nothing. Regardless whether it helps you or not, is not something for you or the US to chose as they are puppets to israel. Anyway not really our discussion but im glad to see you’re more informed than most on the subject :)))

Theres a diff between oppressing someone that is doing something wrong. And oppressing someone who isn’t. Gays for 1- are unnatural. God (or the ever so wise universe for your sake :p) created adam and eve, or a male and female, not adam n steve, or 2 males. 2-sodomy, isnt natural, nor is it healthy, the anus wasnt made for entry, only exit, and this isnt based on my opinions, its based on scientific research. 3- the 1 research that ever concluded that gays are born different, was proven wrong right after, and no further research or study managed ti prove otherwise, its simply a choice they made, not that their biological stature was different. 4- what they’re doing has a huuuuge probability of spreading disease, based on the CDC (Centre for disease control and prevention). 5-you weren’t brought up with 2 dads or 2 moms to know what kind of psychological issues you may have growing up.
6- 10-15 years ago (not in the caveman days) most of the people who are progay, werent then. So its kinda funny how it easy it is to brainwash people to do and think whatever they want them to. 7- this is another brainwash that indirectly moves people away from religion as it opposes its beliefs. 8- must I go on??

I agree that every person has a choice to do whatever the hell they want, untilllll that choice is affecting others in a negative way. Just because a guy feels like running up in a mall with a hiv positive needle and sticking ppl with it (happens alot) doesnt mean its his right to do so. Im not comparing but what they’re doing has maany effects on us and on our youth, and this is why im against it.

Matthew Malpeli

Exactly who is demanding this? Or is your Christian knee jerk reaction to everything to act like a martyr when no one is oppressing you?

Amr A. Ibrahim

And that’s exactly why Islam reject unrestrained democracy. We believe that God had put an ideal lifestyle that would lead to an ideal community, we have no need to take votes on things God already told us how to deal with. Islam isn’t about let’s see what makes an ideal world, it’s about what makes an ideal world, ready to be quested.

Concerning the main subject, I totally understand that homosexuality is a controversial issue in your contemporary culture, however, one doesn’t have to confirm what they see wrong just to make it easy for the rest of the community. I sincerely believe that homosexuality is harmful to homosexuals themselves, if I am to go for it even just to make them at peace then I’m not enough sincere to them, so when you ask people like me to accept homosexuality you’re actually pushing hipocracy in the community, no matter how you see homosexuality yourself. By the way I’m not American.

fiona64

You are free to believe anything you so desire. In the USA, you are NOT free to discriminate against others because of your beliefs. I hope that this helps you better understand.

eaglesfan, love my Knee-gles

Did my post sound like I’m some jingoistic American calling for a forceful democratization of the middle east? Your example is not entirely analogous but I’ll still address it as I don’t disagree with you about US imperialism and, like most thinking Americans who are not currently serving in Congress, I have an unease regarding our unflinching de facto coalition with Israel as it often gives us a severely warped, one-sided perspective on geopolitics. But I have no idea why my original post is such a difficult concept to grasp. There are harmless passages in the Quran and there are barbaric passages in the Quran. Rather than waste so much time and energy trying to design an absurd, convoluted and wholly unreasonable narrative about why oppression/murder/bigotry are justified and somehow un-ironically coalesce with the “religion of peace” label, you can simply renounce the barbarism so that the tenets honestly embody that concept. As an atheist, we will never see eye to eye on the relevance or perceived importance of religion, but I can strongly support any theist who speaks out against the purely perverse aspects of their respective documents–much like I’m sure you can appreciate an American that speaks out against unpalatable foreign policy decisions–while maintaining their religious culture and traditions.

Amr A. Ibrahim

Define discrimination. The heart does discriminate. However, my belief discriminates for homosexuals, not against. I wish the better for them.

Also, sorry most studies actually show being gay is inborn (please tell me why someone would choose to be gay knowing they could get kicked out of their homes or killed!)

Caticng deseases is common for all those involved in unprotected se x, gay people who practise protected se x are as safe as straight people!

I was gay since I was 5, without even knwoing there were others like me :p i speak for experience, so stop calling me unnatural before I call you something unpleasant as well!!!

The anus mysteriously enough also has sensors that allow pleasure to be felt in that area.. I wonder why since you claim it has no s exual intent? :p

Now, I could go here and point out your prophet had se x with a 9 year old, enslaved people and promoted violence!

And don’t be offended, you’ve been offending me with your whole lot of cr`p you write!

Wana prove me being gay is some sort of unnatural choice?? Then choose it!

Cause when I was 5 and feeling alone and isolated i had no idea there were others like me! but I was me, I needed no outside influence for it! Funny enough you need outside influence to become religious!

As for people movign away from religion, AWESOME! Cause then we won’t have to put up with “people” like you!

Jerry Krause

Your question (inquiring, curiosity,…) reminds me of those dirt bikers
who prided themselves in getting drunk and raising hell, who wanted to call
themselves MADD (Mean and Dirty Deeds). Of course, the original MADD (Mother’s Against Drunk Driving) was not pleased about it. There are many answers to your question, nevertheless the one that stands out here is when gays set out to redefine the word “marriage” and forced it on everyone else, it is
difficult if not impossible for Christians to dissociate themselves from what violates the natural moral order established by God. Gays can call it civil union or whatever, but it is when they want to change the meaning of the word “marriage” that it affects others.

I strongly advised gay muslims to still stay away from Majority Islamic Countries that strictly practice Sharia Law. Homosexual intercourse is illegal under sharia law, though the prescribed penalties differ from one school of jurisprudence to another. For example, only a few Muslim-majority countries impose the death penalty for acts perceived as sodomy and homosexual activities: Iran, Saudi Arabia, and Somalia. In other Muslim-majority countries such as Egypt, Iraq, and the Indonesian province of Aceh, same-sex sexual acts are illegal, and LGBT people regularly face violence and discrimination. (Source – Wikipedia – LGBT & Islam).

fiona64

I am sure that you have a very good dictionary at hand, Amr. You can look up discrimination on your own time.

By “better,” I presume that you mean forcing them not to be who they are (based on your previous post) or to remain in the closet. This is not “better,” Amr … except, possibly, for *you,* since you are not then forced to deal with the existence of gay men and lesbians.

Good day to you.

Victor Alafia

Western ideals? Like killing Indians and stealing their lands to make the greatest democracy?

No such thing as western ideals. They keep changing to fit politics of the day.

Victor Alafia

Wait, what? For past 1,300 years, every Islamic scholar, legal expert, mufti, judge, ruler, Islamic studies student, Quranic students and experts, man and woman, understood marriage in Quran to be between a man and a woman. But Reza Aslan and Hasan Minhaj, two American liberal geniuses, think that Muslims got it wrong for 1,300 year, and they know Quran better and have a “different” interpretation. What Aslan and Minhaj are really saying is that the Muslims are the stupidest people ever because they got the marriage wrong for 1,300 years, and they are smarter than all Quran and legal experts in the history! Sure!

Jude

Hey Misha, what’s your problem with Islam? I’ve been reading these comments for a while now and I’ve noticed all your islamophobic comments.
Why do you feel the need to not only spread lies about the religion but also attack others for their beliefs?

MahmudH

Whatever you like, but you’re just pushing a cultural POV and claiming superiority.

Parviz Gundkalli

I sincerely believe religion is harmful, however, you disagree. My friends and family who are homosexual do not believe homosexuality is harmful, and lead very normal healthy and happy lives. (Your understanding of freewill and happiness that does not conform to your beliefs, demonstrates niavety and narrow-mindedness). I could argue that using a “1400 year old culturally-specific desert religion” to formulate ideas by which all modern day people should live, simply because YOU (without EVIDENCE) would like it – is foolish. You fail to realise that just because you have CHOSEN to conform to your religion, and are WILLING to accept ideas without proof – other people are not. Your vision of an Islamic Utopia where people mindlessly accept God’s ‘desert’ rules from 610AD does not work – refer to every modern Islamic country for proof. Your God had a desert-based socio-economic ideology that was suited to 610 AD. When you push religion – YOU push hypocrisy.

Religious person (RP): did you know that you are unhappy?
NRP: No. I’m very happy.
RP: NO. YOU ARE UNHAPPY. IF YOU DO NOT FOLLOW GOD’S RULES (LIKE ME) – YOU ARE UNHAPPY!
NRP: No. I’m very happy.
RP: YOU SHOULD FOLLOW *MY* GODS RULES TO BE HAPPY.
NRP: But, I am happy…

YOU are not being asked to accept homosexuality. YOU are being asked to support other peoples right to to exhibit the FREEWILL (given perhaps by your God? Note: freewill not given to the Angels) to be themselves.

Democracy must always be unrestrained.

Ahmad Barghouti

Lol there is so much wrong with what you wrote that it took me a while of thinking whether I should bother with replying or not, its like, where do I start? At the fact that you think you were gay at 5? Or that you feel religion and science dont have anything in common, or that you either chose to ignore, or you’re simply ignorant to human anatomy….ah whatever….frst off I dont think a normal human being with no psychological issues (that should definitely be looked into btw), should be thinking about the same sex/opposite sex in anyway other than “another person to play with” at 5 yrs old. The fact that you feel because since 5 you favored playing with your own sex that it makes you gay, is whats truly troubling. If thats the case, over 90% of the worlds’ population would have been gay. On a realistic note, a huge number, if not the majority of gays, weren’t born gay, they “discovered” themselves at a much much older age, COINCIDENTALLY after being dumped/hurt by the opposite sex too many times. Or after not being able to communicate with them in the first place due to being nervous or whatever reason. Compare it to people in prison, they’re not gay but willing to have sodomy with anther male cuz its all thats available. Now imagine if young people, before formulating their sexual orientation, were put in a prison, what do you think the percentage of gays is gonna be?pretty high indeed. There are no real backed studies that prove you could be born this way, contrary to what you’re arguing, nor is it something that you cant control, but ofcorse its easier said than done. After so many years of believing something, its very difficult to make a shift in the neuronets in your brain that have become so hardwired to a certain belief. What is a belief? A belief is a MENTAL representation of a persons’ attitude towards the likelihood or truth of something. The environment and your experiences shape those beliefs…..similar to me believing in islam, or God for that matter. But we’ll come back to that. Homos and heteros have the same likelihood of spreading diseases, says misha. The centre for disease control and prevention disagrees, after a study in 2011 showing that between 90.8% – 92.8% of all new hiv cases in males were due to sodomy. Or do you simply believe what you want? Who knows maybe you have a better research centre than them, in your own mind. No wonder you see fairytails in religion, theres probably alot more going on in ur mind other than that, pink elephants I suppose

Speaking of God, have you read a Quran to tell me what it contains, or did you simply google (what is wrong with islam)?? Or was it a few memes that you saw floating around? Cuz if thats the case, mother thereasa could possibly be a whore, or whatever you want her to be, as long as it’s google-able. Me on the other hand at the age of 15 questioned religion, and whether God actually exists or did we simply come out of thin air by chance. So much perfection by chance. It’s kind of like asking a 5 yr old how his baby brother was born, he might say it just happened, my moms stomach got big, and he came out. Very similar argument, except one is made by a grown adult. …..rather than searching for all the people that didnt agree with religion, i tried to formulate my OWN opinion, by actually reading a couple bibles, a torah, and back to the quran, till i realized there must be a God, and islam must be the right religion. If you actually read a quran, you wouldnt argue about the lack of science in religion (or as u called it fairytales). In reality, science is trying to catch up with religion, maybe not in general, but islam, that I’m sure of. The amount of scientific inescapable facts in the quran are probably more than your little head could fathom. Whether its about the creation of the universe, the shape of the earth, the very detailed stages of a human embryo, the ‘langauge’ between ants (discovered in 2009), how mountains are like pillars in the ground, black holes, the expanding universe, the depths of the seas, the height of clouds, the planets, the movement of the sun and the moon and how they arent simply curculating but actually moving forward as if to a destination (science discovered that it is true, they are moving at 70,000 km an hr), a dying star….etc etc etc etc. Alll of which in general were not discovered by your science till about the 60s. (About 1400 yrs later) Keeping in mind all this detailed scientific information was written from the speach of a prophet who couldn’t write, nor read, an illiterate. 1400 years later science is finally understanding what he was saying. If it wasn’t God that gave him this information, it must’ve been aliens, or maybe he simply guesssed, to go along with the “coincidence theory”.

I understand you were manipulated into worshipping a pedophile and war-mongerer but here goes nothing.

Studies rove that indeed the brain of a homosexual as well as his hormones act different from a heterosexual, therfore the argument is valid, it’s a birth thing 😉

And now your great stupid moment, thinking that at 5 I was having S E X!
XD

Sorry, I waited much longer than 5 for that lol!

At 5 kids write valentine’s card, they know what kind of toys they like to play with and they have that little crush on someone xD

I had an amazing, traditional christian upbrining with a loving mum and dad, and I didn’t even know what gay people were xD

Yet I was one.. weird :p

Anyway, I base logic on science, however claiming some invisible person is everywhere and talks to us ocasioanlly seems far from science, but I understand your pedoophile muhammad shoulld know better.. I mean he knew how to treat a woman, he raped his slaves and had se x with a 9 year old, seems like a decent guy :p

You should seriously study things truly, instead of using your pathetic little quran full of rape, violence and war to justify your own stupidity 😉

No not those, I mean democracy, respect for human rights (even if limited), and social progress. Which with few exceptions seems to almost be entirely in the west. Taiwan would be the best example of an Eastern Democracy.

Yes, we westerns made horrible things to get where we are now… Let’s see what muslims did.. Slavery, holy wars, stealing land rom the native people and forcing them to convert to islam.. Weird, seems like we are equal o.o

Except, of course, muslim countries, with perhaps the excption of Albania, barely know what it’s like to have human rights

Marriage was redefined when women were allowed to keep their humanity and black people were allowed to marry white people!

In some cultures gay and polygamous marriages were highly accepted, sorry if you only see things in your christian lense! xD

Marriage is a social contract, not a religious deal, you can get married, and I will marry a dude, and funny enough you will still be married and the world spinning.

I will get MARRIED in a civil cerimony though, even though there are churches to marry me, as a person of no religion I’d prefer to have a beautiful wedding in town hall 😀

Enjoy living in the middle ages ^^

WJM51

Which I find to be a silly thing to say. If God knows and sees all, then how can you POSSIBLY have “free will”? It flies in the face of God’s knowing everything to say that he doesn’t know what you will do as a result of your “free will”. And since, by definition of knowing all, God MUST know what you’re going to do, to be upset enough about it to damn you to eternal torment for it just seems psychotic. The two things can’t exist at the same time. Either God knows all or we have free will. The two things can’t exist at the same time.

Ahmad Barghouti

Lol you’re seriously retarded. Did I mention worshipping a man? Or did I mentiom you having sex at 5? Do you pull up arguments out of ur ass? More uses for that hole I guess. Ive never heard of any rape of any slaves or anyone else for that matters, how could the one raping people, tell them that if someone rapes another and was married to be stoned to death. you think people wouldve let it happen? Are you that retarded? Or do you believe everything you read…show me proof he raped someone. As for war mongerer, he was named by the west as one of the best leaders the world has ever seen, and by the us justice department as the best lawgiver of all time. But your wisdom says otherwise. Lool stfu plz.
As for age its very contradictory as the dates dont make sense and the real age couldnt possibly be below 17, let alone ages in those days were different than now. Did you know there was once an emperor at the age of 13? Alexandre the great ruled at 20, its not like today with braindead people like you alive, people reached pubirty and were handed responsibilities at a much younger age then.

Ahmad Barghouti

As for having sex, being a homosexual, you should kno just cuz the word sex is in the sentence, it doesnt always mean having sex. Instead of thinking of a come back while reading, read and try to understand what is being said, unless ur simply doing this for shock value. I said, at 5, if you were a normally functioning, chemically balanced human being, you shouldnt be thinking of the opposite sex. Ill dumb it down fr u, if u were a male, u wudnt have a crush on a female, or vice versa, ur 5!!! If you did, I repeat, definitely go get a psychoanalysis.

As for science proving God, science, and the human mind can’t comprehend the thought of God, trying to measure him is trying to make him a physical being, which is impossible. Instead of thinking of him as an invisible man talkin to us like they brainwashed ur stupid ass to think. Think of how could a man, create a universe. Doesnt make sense does it? God shouldnt be likened to a man or any image u hold in ur head. What I said was, you wont now, or ever be able to see God, thats why its called faith, you base faith on facts, not fairytails. If you can give me a way our prophet could know all the scientific facts he knew 1400 years ago, before science was able to prove it, plz do, and ill join u in being atheist and who knows maybe ill discover myself as a bornagain homo.

As for biologically different, u missed the part where I talked abt how the mind works. The mind is so powerful that its able to chemically, physically, and mentally change your body. Actually every 7 years, every cell in your body will have been replaced, and your mind plays a big role in this. This isnt proof after years of being convinced you are gay. I want new borns with these imbalances, guess what there arent non.

Will

It’s the sex u have stop for the love of God stop sex with same sex partners and obey God

Pennywhistler

So you too oppose prayer in public schools, football games, city council meetings, etc.? Especially Christian prayers?

And maybe it’s a country thing, not sure xD but here, maybe because of our early dating culture you can expect to see 5 year old kids “dating” at playschool and sharing valentine cards and having crushes ^^

And maybe it can’t fit your little mind, but maybe, just maybe, the universe came to be thanks to the big bang and such, nothing to do with some mystical fairty tale ^^

And I need facts, sience, proofs, not some imaginary friend you call god :3

Doesn’t change what the quran says, do read it :p slavery is cool, you can rape your slaves, and all details do say muhammad had sex with her at 9 :p

Now not that he is any worse than people of his age back then, having sex with children was sadly widely accepted back then worldwide and seen as normal in christian land too, doesn’t change the fact for our modern world he’d be a pedo :p

And yes, he was a great military leader, a smart one, no doubt on that, so were the Europeans colonisers who slaughtered Amerindians, they were still cruel and heartless, so was your prophet ^^

Elviin

Could be a gay atheist a good argument for muslims to support gays with love and to support their equality? I guess it could not.

Harry Underwood

LOL.

Harry Underwood

You’re ASSuming that Dan is opposed to polygamy. He has not indicated such, so that makes you either a mind-reader or a fraud.

Harry Underwood

You’re easily persuaded. *Easily*

Harry Underwood

“The Bible has pretty archaic roots with this topic too”

This is assuming that eglesfan is Christian, Jewish or has allegiance of some sort to the Bible.

Tyler Janzen

These are things that people do out of ignorance, which hurt others and eventually likely hurt themselves. They are not innate human desires except perhaps for a rare and very broken individual. To compare these harmful actions to the natural desire to have a close personal loving relationship with someone that hurts no one is kind of absurd. You don’t harm people by teaching them that murder is wrong, you help them. Meanwhile studies have shown clearly that giving homosexuals religious counselling (ie. Gay is wrong) leads to higher suicide rates and greater mental distress. If you believe your religion justifies you hurting people I guess that’s your right to believe but I find it very sad. I want nothing to do with a God that would lead me to hurt people in the name of avoiding sins which are abstract and not based on anything logical or even tangible.

Tyler Janzen

Creating free will is a separate issue. This goes much further. Why create a standard that people are supposedly meant to live by while making most of them in a way that they are content and happy with, and biologically geared towards, this arrangement, and then create another group of people that are geared towards a completely different arrangement, and made to feel lost, confused, and alienated by the expectation that they should follow this “standard” which doesn’t fit them. For some arbitrary reason these people need to deny themselves the fulfillment of their natural human need/desire to have intimate sexual relationships which feed our lifelong bond to our significant other. I’m sorry but free will does not necessitate all this ridiculousness and arbitrary torment I just described.

MahmudH

I’m not telling anyone whether or not they can marry. My original post was to point out the flaw in the article’s assertion that Muslims should not just tolerate, but embrace gay marriage even if they think homosexuality is a sin.

Well techically they should, thought it’s their option in the end.
A secular marriage after all has nothing to dow ith religious marriage, it’s like muslims therefore expecting others to be helping support their rights if they don’t do the same.
A secular marriage after all takes place in a non-religious settings, imans and other religious leaders are still allowed to not marry thse they feel should not marry under their religious doctrine

Sam

Assalamu alaykum,

I never read anywhere in the Quran where “Islam reject[s] unrestrained democracy”. What surah was that?

I did read in the Quran where God told Muslims how to deal with themselves. I didn’t see where God said to impose those laws on others. As a Muslim you are called to submit, not to make others submit. Or do you have a surah to support where God said you should enforce God’s law on others?

Along these lines you do not need to accept homosexuality anymore than you have to accept polytheism. But to follow the example of the Prophet (saws) you should not stand in the way of others doing as they wish. It is not your concern. This is exemplified in the Constitution of Medina.

Go in peace.

Sam

Agreed. If a clergy disagrees with homosexuality they should not be forced to marry homosexuals. But a business owner is no more allowed to turn away homosexuals than they are whites, blacks, Muslims, Jews, Christians, Hispanics, the elderly, the disabled, foreigners, Americans, etc.

Sam

Alhamdolillah!

Sam

Does the Quran support that? I must have misread somewhere…

If you would like elaboration on what the Quran says I would direct you to The Message of the Quran. This is a translation by Muhammad Asad a Austrian Jewish convert to Islam. Interestingly enough his translation is banned from the Saudi Kingdom because it does not reinforce the Salafi party line which he quite succinctly shows is not actually Quranic.

Also, if you would like to learn more, I recommend Journey to the End of Islam by Michael Muhammad Knight. It really is an excellent primer on contemporary Islam, the history of Islam, and the life of the Prophet.

I’m sorry for all the suffering you have endured.
I love you and accept you for who you are.
If I could make the whole world different overnight so you would suffer no more than I would.
I have only been given a small opportunity to work on such a grand scale.
I have found that if I want the world to be a better place I need to embody that.
So, I’m sorry for the pain, the misery, the sadness.
You are loved….

Sam

The Prophet, as dictated by the God in the Quran, practiced tolerance and understanding where ever possible. An excellent example of this was the Constitution of Medina.

Sam

Why would you want consenting adults to not be able to enter a legal contract? No one is forcing you into a contract.

I was hoping to show the internal inconsistency of the ahadith. If one hadith contradicts all hadith how can hadith be taken as law?

Did it work? 🙂

MahmudH

What does that actually mean though, how does embracing look different from tolerating when your personal beliefs are against?

Sam

And how does the Quran teach us to treat “effeminate men”?

Tavares Avery

First off ahadith is a science and this whatbuou qouted is out of context and ised by thise who reject hadith….in whic it says in quran that Allaah inspired upon the prophet salallaahu alayhi was salaam

Tavares Avery

Homosexuality is spoke of in the quran.
as the abomination of the people of lut

Sam

It is. Are all “effeminate men” homosexuals?

Most importantly though you evaded my question:
How does the Quran teach us to treat “effeminate men”?

I’ll explain, I for example don’t personally support polygamy, yet I am a staunch supporter of havng it legalised, and I will embrace ay future rulling of polygamy with great pleasure! Why? Because the law can’t be based on our narrow religious views or how we imagine a marriage must be.

We can’t just support the rights we love and want, but yes the ones that affect all people who don’t harm us 🙂

An imam or priest will always be allowed to refuse any marriage, but we can’t allow clerks and judges of the peace and so on to breach rights like that

Tavares Avery

When effeminate men we are not talking about not manly enough…we are talking about homosexuals

Sam

Oh, I see. An hadith that disagrees with you is wrong. And has been rejected. That is convenient isn’t it? If all the hadith that disagree with you, and your putting the Ahadith on the same level of the Quran, then how can you know which hadith are legitimate and which are not?

Perhaps you should rely more on the word of God and less on the circumstantial, and inconsistent, collection of hadith.

The Quran was written down within a handful of years after the death of the Prophet (saws). The hadith, after being disowned by the Prophet (saws) (see above), were collected generations after the Prophet and his companions all passed from this earth and from living memory. This is how the New Testament was collected as well and God (swt) makes quite clear that Isa’s (as) words were distorted in that short time. But now you wish to act upon hearsay and take it as God’s (swt) word when even the Prophet (saws) rejected such behavior.

Tavares Avery

Also real Islam flows qur’an and sunnah of prophet…just cuz somthing is not specifically mentioned by Allaah doesnt mean we neglect whats authentic from the Messenger of Allaah salallaahu alayhi was salaam

Sam

I see. So you are willfully interpreting effeminate men to mean homosexual. That is again convenient.

But again you evaded my question:
How does the Quran teach us to treat “effeminate men”?

Tavares Avery

You compare what happened in a totally different culture 1436 years ago ummm ok…this is not worthy of a answer you wudnt understand the dynamics of the religion and why he Salallaahu alayhi was salaam married her

I actually do understand, and had you read my other comments you would have seen I mentioned it was also common practise to marry children in christian lands.

However don’t expect people to insult me and belittle my identity and then not got a piece of their own poison, if you don’t like your rophet being insulted cause you hold him dear, I suggest you don’t offend other people either, but if you do offend others, it’s in their right to offend you.
Simple

Sam

“real Islam”?

True Islam flows from God (swt) as a gift. He blesses those whom He wills with it.

Allah does specifically say that if something is not mentioned by Him it should be accepted only hesitantly. Other wise we make for ourselves halal what is haram and haram what is halal.

Hypocrites give the lie to God’s word. This is attested to over and over in the Quran. God is very clear on this point.

To quote myself:

Perhaps you should rely more on the word of God and less on the circumstantial, and inconsistent, collection of hadith.

The Quran was written down within a handful of years after the death of the Prophet (saws). The hadith, after being disowned by the Prophet (saws) (see above), were collected generations after the Prophet and his companions all passed from this earth and from living memory. This is how the New Testament was collected as well and God (swt) makes quite clear that Isa’s (as) words were distorted in that short time. But now you wish to act upon hearsay and take it as God’s (swt) word when even the Prophet (saws) rejected such behavior.

Sam

I think the thing that bothers me most about people who take your view is the clear hypocrisy. Over and over your ilk speak of the perfection of the life of the Prophet (saws) but then use the internet, air conditioning, electricity, air planes, guns, oil, English, etc. How do you justify these things when the Prophet (saws) did not?

DKeane123

Nope, I’m good for now as far as the reading of religious books. Not until someone gives me a clear methodology with respect to whose version is actually true (in the most literal sense), will I read another religious tome. I have little time in this life, and it would be a wasted time on me, I am thoroughly convinced the supernatural is not real and therefore anything that claims truth and includes magic in that truth, is off the table. I’d rather read the Hobbit for my morality plays with magic and adventure – it doesn’t pretend to be non-fiction.

I’m not sure why Asad’s conversion matters at all. Does that make his version more credible? I notice sometimes people try and discredit evolution by noting the Darwin was racist. Now of course, that has no bearing on the validity of evolution – in the same way a conversion story doesn’t really add to anyone’s ability to arrive at a valid interpretation of Islam. To come full circle on the idea of literal truth. What I find really interesting is that evolution is literally a horribly violent and wasteful process, more so than almost anything else I can think of – but because there is a strong methodology, it is as close as we can come to the truth. So I am forced to accept evolution, with its violence and waste. Until religion comes with similarly rigorous method, the arguments of religious scholars or disagreeing sects are wasted on me.

And thank you for your response, I wish you the best too.

DKeane123

What you seem to suggest is that prior to scientific labeling of homosexuals, there was no concept of that form of sexuality, And therefore, their sexual preferences would not have resulted in persecution prior to “scientism”. I find that extremely difficult to believe. While Aquinas doesn’t use the term homosexual, he is very much not in favor of their sexual acts and makes it well known that their activities are a “special sin” and “unnatural” and is fully aware of the concept. This is obviously well before scientism.

Tavares Avery

Also he says take the rhe messenger gives you….obey him and his rasul….he sent the quran and the hikmah to the prophet….so we have his sunnah in authenticated hadith

Sam

In regards to your first paragraph: Okay. 🙂

Second:
One reason I mention Asad’s conversion is because of the strong bias that is usually stated about Islam being anti-Jew. I would like to think that a Jew, or woman’s conversion, would help dispel the idea of an anti-Jew, woman, etc. inherentness to Islam or the Quran.
A second reason is that converts are often better versed in the tomes that form the foundation of the religions than many who are born in to it due to the seeming ignorance inertia if you will that seems to take place.
Asad’s conversion unto itself does not add to his reaching a more or less valid reading of the Quran. But the exhaustive footnotes, ranging from historical context to linguistic usage, help to show the level of effort and detail that he had put into the endeavor of translating the text.
Such an activity is not limited to converts of course but the from the outside to the inside certainly adds something, imho, to the explanations, especially for those who are outside of it themselves.

Religion will not ever have the same rigorous methodology to reach “truth” that is presented by the scientific method. The scientific method is narrow in scope and ability. It can, and does, explore natural phenomenon and provides a way for anyone, anyone that is who is initiated into the methodology, to reproduce the results. With our ever expanding tool kit more and more phenomenon become available for us to explore using this methodology. Perhaps one day this methodology could be used to explore all phenomenon, even those that boggle our mind such as what timelessness.

God is an outside of context problem and no methodology will ever prove or disprove the existence of Divinity. No theory or formula could be developed that could actually test for God. Religions are merely the human attempt to … explore. I suppose this divinity. It is truly a matter of faith and not of science.

Texts on the other hand can be rigorously examined. Both for methodology and content. They can be explored historically, linguistically, culturally, and therapeutically. These factors are what I was speaking of exploring when I suggested reading The Message of the Quran and Journey to the End of Islam.

I did not do this attempt to convert you or convince you of the correctness of Islam or the Quran. I suggested these texts because you made the claim that:

Salafism is a pretty literal interpretation of the Quran. People like ISIS are essentially doing their absolute best to emulate the actual actions of the prophet.

I was looking for support that indeed this was accurate when from my readings and explorations it is not.

It should be noted though that I do agree that ISIS, and similar groups, take from the Quran what they find convenient and abandon that which they do not. But this is not reflective of “a pretty literal interpretation of the Quran,” nor does it “emulate the actual actions of the prophet.”

I have no doubt that you have an issue with people misinterpreting and misrepresenting, as was evidenced by your questions regarding homosexuality and its interpretation by Gregory Peterson and by your excellent example of those who try to misrepresent and misinterpret evolution because of the personal failings of Darwin.

Perhaps this misunderstanding will continue though due to your aforementioned lack of desire to read the suggested texts. 🙂

Sam

And those who lived and knew him followed him. And the Prophet (saws) made clear that them and to us that you should only take the Quran, the message of God (swt) given to us, and not write down about him. We are not to follow corrupted texts that are written down generations after the Prophet (saws).

The Quran makes clear it is the message to be followed and the Messenger (saws) is just a messenger. Just a messenger.

If the hadith ever contradicts the Quran than what are we to follow?

How does the Quran say we should treat people we disagree with? How does it say we should treat homosexuals?
If it says nothing than how can we possible believe that either a) the Prophet (saws) actually treated people like these hadith claim or b) that they are at all authentic?
The Quran enjoins us time and again to only be warners, to let people know, peaceably, that they are going astray, and to only use force to stand against oppression. If this is the command of The One True God (swt) than how can you claim that something so contradictory is true?

We need to follow God (swt). We do this by using the Miraculous Gift of the Quran that he endowed upon the Prophet (saws). We do not do this by following the whims of men and hearsay that the Prophet (saws) warned us about.

Gregory Peterson

“Homosexuality” was about more than “homosexual acts.” Aquinas condemned same-sex sexual acts that to him, were just that, sexual acts…sexual acts contrary to the neo-Aristotelian moral lessons dubious derived from nature as was understood in the 13 Century.

Those sexual acts referred to by Aquinas, weren’t done by “homosexuals,” they were done by men who did not have sexual orientation identities, even though they had sexual orientations.

DKeane123

A bit of a trivial distinction. If you performed a homosexual act, then you likely had some issues with respect to society. It wasn’t as if men without sexual orientation identities that performed homosexual acts were welcomed into societies prior to the sexual label (Rome and a few other locations may be an exception). Then all of a sudden “science” labels someone homosexual and that is when their troubles happened to start.

Mohammed Abdul Malik

First of all, homosexual acts are haram (forbidden) in Islam. The text of the Quran and the Hadith explicitly forbid homosexual acts. It is intellectually dishonest to pretend otherwise. Second of all, the ‘haramness’ of homosexual acts does not mean that I, as a Muslim, have to hate gays. Quite the contrary: my religion teaches me to hate the sin and not the sinner. Idolatry is considered to be the greatest sin in Islam, greater than homosexual acts. I do not hate people who practice idolatry any more than I hate gays. Thirdly, what kind of ‘gay rights’ am I willing to support ? The killing of Matthew Sheppard was a seminal moment in the history of our nation. I support any law against such acts of brutality and vigilantism. I also support any law that forbids discrimination against gays in the everyday business of life: renting apartments, getting a job etc.. Having said that, please do not ask me to celebrate the Supreme Court decision about gay marriage. There is nothing to celebrate here. There is a pathology behind homosexuality and the proof of this pathology lies in our physiology itself. Being gay is a heartbreaking brokenness. I have compassion for gay people but I am not willing to legitimize their way of life, let alone celebrate it.

MahmudH

Would you embrace a policy that you thought was fundamentally illogical? If a government wanted to change pensions so they were also paid to young working people, would you support and embrace that? If they wanted to change maternity pay so it was paid to people with no children, would you embrace that, or would you speak out to say that they don’t understand the purpose of pensions and maternity pay? Would you not let them know that giving everyone these things means it is no longer a policy focused on the purposes for which it was originally focused?

Rusty Pudder

Because the term PUBLIC. Your free to go to a Private catholic school. Nearly 100 million Americans are not Christian.

GregAbdul

Brother, there is more than one Islam and calling me or anyone else names does not change obvious truth. There are Sufi Muslims. There are Salafi Muslims. There are Shia Muslims. There are Saudi Muslims. There are Pakistani Muslims and Indian Muslims. And I know you hate it, but there are American Muslims. Praise be to Allah, I am an American Muslim. Being in America influences how I practice Islam, as it does for everyone living in any place with rules and regulations. I am not “judging the religion by other human beings.” I am following basic Islamic rules that say I must abide by the laws where I live as opposed to slaughtering anyone who does not follow my little knowledge, as is happening in Syria and Iraq. Brother do you like all the death happening in the Muslim world? Why do you cling to the intolerance that is killing Muslims by the thousands? Do you like death sweeping through the Muslim world like a plague, killing innocent women and children? I thought the Muslim is the one from whom everyone else is safe. Our Prophet allowed Jews and others to freely practice their faiths under his protection. Where do you get the idea that you are the ultimate judge of Islam and you get to pretend that anyone who does not follow your one Islam is not loved by Allah? You do know that it is haram to imitate Fir ‘awn don’t you?

dmx92145

You are totally blinded and brainwashed by American media. It’s pretty sad. Nowhere have I ever said that we should kill those who are not Muslim or do not follow Islam a certain way. Like so many others your argument is to deflect to unrelated issues that have nothing to do with the original topic. What I stated above is based on the Quran and Sunnah of the Prophet Muhammad pbuh not the laws of the land or the laws of Iraq or Syria. And the bottom line is that even though we as Muslims follow the laws of the land that does not mean that we do so at the cost of going against our faith. It is legal to drink alcohol and gamble but a Muslim doesn’t do those things if he wants to follow the religion correctly. And just because its legal for gays to marry does not mean that a Muslim should encourage or do such behavior. Im guessing that if the entire united states did something or believed something u would do the same smh. Im not afraid to stand alone but evidently u are.

Pennywhistler

The issue I posted about is forcing religious people to participate in ceremonies which conflict with their beliefs. Stay with the program. Random comments are not appreciated.

joeyj1220

What do you mean “in your contemporary culture”?? Are you sending this post via a magical time portal where you are contacting us from the 12th century?

joeyj1220

Another reason why there needs to be a gargantuan wall between church and state. Yes, you may not kill gays, but you’d sure vote to keep civil rights from us. Thankfully your worldview is becoming less and less a reality

GregAbdul

Brother, does the Quran and the Sunnah teach you to insult me? You say there is only one Islam. That is false. I have made clear and plain statements, not defending America, but showing that there are many Islams all over the world. The Quran and the Sunnah are like water and not like bricks. We fit them to our situations. To pretend otherwise is to merely pretend. I am talking with you about Islam as it is practiced in the real world. How does calling me names change obvious fact? You are using loose and imprecise language. I guess we can say the authors re encouraging gay marriage…really they are encouraging Muslims to embrace the same laws that protect us freely practicing Islam in America. Certainly neither they nor I said Muslims should practice sodomy or lesbianism. This is called straw man. you are inventing an argument instead of addressing what is asked of you. Brother…really…are we backwards? There is only one way to do Islam? Aren’t there four madhabs? Was Imam Shafii…”brainwashed” (Allah’s mercy be upon him and may I be forgiven for such stupid words!) Was Imam Malik brainwashed? Didn’t Imam Shafii say fiqh is influenced by the place you live? Are you better than Imam Shafii? Do you have a Risala…other than trying to teach me to be an intolerant Muslim?

dmx92145

You obviously have no idea what the word tolerance means as it pertains to Islam. Nowhere in my statements have I said persecute or oppress those that are gay or who practice gay narriage. What my initial statement made clear to you was that Allah’s law is above both man’s law and the moral law which can both change. Allah’s law does not change. Does that make sense to you? You can bring up the different schools of thought if u like which is another attempt at deflection since all 4 schools follow the Quran which again is Allah’s unchanged law which again forbades homoaexuality which obviously also forbades gay marriage. Like I ssid before that’s between you and Allah. If the US decides to make it legal for men to narry two sisters or a mother and daughter at once I will take the same stance I have now….why? Because Allah forbids it. You make what is simple very difficult. All that extra stuff u mentioned is pointless here.

Ali Musawi

My religion (Islam) forbids homosexuality and i will do whatever i can to see that it doesn’t spread. Freedom doesn’t entail the spread of every corruption just because some morally depraved individual wishes to engage in it. The Quran specifically has prohibited homosexuality and there is no debate about that— we have explicit verses prohibiting it. One can close their eyes to this reality but one cannot escape it.

As an American I too have the right to lobby against immoral behavior which i believe will destroy my society.

The authors of this article can speak for themselves as lovers of gay men and their practices but they certainly don’t speak for Islam, Christianity, or Judaism in their rejection of this immoral behavior.

GregAbdul

Brother insulting me…do you get it from the Quran or the Sunnah? Where did the Prophet argue and call anyone “brainwashed”? Aren’t there FOUR madhabs? And five or more if you count the Salafis, Sufis and Shia? Imam Shafi’i said that fiqh is fixed and altered by where a Muslim lives. Are you better than Imam Shafi’i? Where is your Risala…other than telling me how to be an intolerant Muslim? How does your calling me names alter the obvious reality of the many forms of Islam practiced all over the real world?

dmx92145

First your weak argument is that its just conservative Muslims who weould agree with me as if Muslims are more political than religious. Then you accuse me of wanting to kill people. Then you split hairs over how many “Islams” there are. How Sad. Stop bending to please others and stand up for the true Muslims who will bend only in submission to Allah. And if u are really ready to stand up for the so called marginalized lgbt community I expect to see you marching along side them in all of those gay pride parades. Sad.

GregAbdul

I know what tolerance means. In America, it is illegal for anyone to have sex in a public place. In Islam, it is illegal for me to speculate on what people do behind closed doors. Minding your business is a big rule that many Muslims ignore. We are to “knock three times” and then get off my neighbor’s doorstep if he or she does not answer. Which means we give people their privacy. I hug and kiss Muslims all the time, I am not gay, but no one, if you really understand humanity is pure. The Arabs like this idea and it breeds so much prejudice and suffering. You can love a man so so much…and never want sex with the man, but as a man, you can love another man even more than any gay man. This love is not haram. Sodomy is haram. Peeping in and speculating on someone’s sex life is haram. I don’t know of any gay people in America who insist on giving you a blow-by-blow of what they do in their bedrooms at night. You and me are not debating the legitimacy of gay sex. You claim there is only one Islam. There are FOUR madhabs. If you are being honest and decent and fair with me, your argument has been exposed as false and we move on and talk about the differing ways Islam is practiced all over the world. People like you resent that there is an emerging American Islam. Brother please get over it. Your resentment will not alter reality. Again: Imam Shafi’i, not me, has said you practice fiqh according to the place where you live. His fiqh in Egypt was different from the fight he taught and practiced in Baghdad. He says this, not me and it is he who you disagree with. Maybe you are a Salafi and you don’t respect the Imam? Most of us are not Salafi and we respect Imam Shafi’i way way more than you. Is that our real difference and why you are here being intolerant and calling me brainwashed and

dmx92145

What goes on behind closed doors is none of my business. The laws that are passed are my business. So since you are so confident that you are right…Take what you are saying to a respected Sheikh or Imam who follows and teaches Imam Shafi’i. I guarantee you that he will 1) condemn gay marriage and 2)correct your misinterpretation of what the Imam has said. Stop looking for an excuse to excuse the inexcusable. There is no American Islam but there are American Muslims. And most are like me in that they believe that we do reject the societal practices that are against the Quran and Sunnah. Drinking Alcohol gambling and gay marriage…all legal in the usa…all illegal in Islam. Make a choice.

GregAbdul

we will stop brother. you are not answering me. you use imprecise language “respected” sheik…means you only respect the ones who support what you already believe. I keep telling you our debate is not over gay marriage. I never said I support gay marriage specifically. Once again, imprecise language. I said there is more than one Islam. You grudgingly admit there are “American Muslims.”

okay…American Muslims and an emerging set of American Muslim scholars, who have specific fiqh rules for Muslims living in America…..

if you insist that’s not an American Islam….then may Allah guide you. All praise be to Him who controls the real world and the virtual and who has given us diversity and difference.

I pray Allah removes the prejudice from the hearts of men this Ramadan. All the hate and death and suffering…I really don’t understand why anyone would cling to it.

Ahmad Barghouti

Lolllll any reply I put in is deletee by the admin to make it seem like I didnt know how to reply to your lies, how weakkkk

dmx92145

“All the hate and death and suffering….” have I said anything about hating anyone or wanting to kill anyone or make them suffer? NO. Only you bring up such nonsense. If you weren’t so busy turning what I have said into a something totally off topic you would realize that NOTHING I said is against what any of the 4 schools of thought teach. No natter what school you follow, even when you are obeying the laws of the land, you do not support what is against Islam. Not your Islam or my Islam or their Islam. ISLAM. You need some help tho. Go talk to your respected sheikh or Imam. Explain the difference you have with me. We shall see what he says.

Your comparison sadly makes no sense.
Two people get married for one reason mostly, they’re in love and want to express and have that love recognised by law.
One one partner dies the other through marriage has inheritance rights, tax breaks, widow’s pension and so on.
In case one goes to the hospital the other can visit and so on.
What is illogical is believing in fairy tales and that some almighty figure is watching us, that is illogical.
Marriage was originally intended as a contract in which you basically sold of your daughters, would you support that?
Black people were originally brought to America and Europe as slaves, would you support that?
And in christian-majority lands the original laws were to keep muslims away or force them to convert, would you support that? 🙂

MahmudH

I disagree with the assumption that marriage was originally about selling off one’s daughters. That is how it worked in places where women were treated as slaves, but that was never universally practised. Marriage evolved as a fertility ceremony, whereby as human beings evolved intelligence and the belief in the supernatural, they came to desire ceremonies to mark important life events – birth, coming of age, marriage and death. Marriage, rightly or wrongly, was linked to fertility and caring for children, each other, and for family. The human propensity for monogamy probably pre-dates the existence of marriage ceremonies as you don’t need any particular intelligence to be socially monogamous. However, with the wedding ceremony and social recognition of marriage, the practise became a social institution and took on a powerful psychological resonance as the foundation of sexual morality in many religious traditions.

All of this is beside the power though for the question I asked – Would you embrace a policy that you thought was fundamentally illogical? You don’t think that gay marriage is illogical, however if a religious person thinks homosexuality is immoral, then they do think that gay marriage is illogical. Therefore it follows that asking them to embrace gay marriage even if they think homosexuality is immoral is the same as asking them to support a policy that they think is illogical. Which is a silly thing to request. What you really want them to do is to change their opinion on sexual morality. Asking them to embrace gay marriage when they haven’t changed their opinion is both missing the point and asking them telling them to behave irrationally, hence I disagree with the open letter.

You seem to miss the point yourself.
You see things from your own cultural lense ignoring the fact that many different cultures have celebrated same-sex marriages and held gay couples in equal regard to straight couples, often seein gay couples as an advantage actually as it would reduce the power struggles in different tribes and succession issues between ribal brothers.

I’m not asking people to change their religious view, nor their religious laws, but yes to accept the fact that secular law is not based on religious law, you have to support it, or again, you can’t really expect people to support you!

Muslims can’t expect to support them during the oppresion they face in Europe and America, nor in their homes like Palestine, if they themselves refuse to support other groups.

People are entitled to their religious beliefs, their political beliefs, and their oppinion on what a marriage should be, and as I said before, religious leaders can refuse any wedding at their own discretion.

Homophobia is a choice people are free to make, that has not changed with the law, just like racism, misogyny and other forms of discrimination are still choices people can make.

What they can’t do is expect the law to relfect religious dogma and of course not fight for it.

Marriage was never about equal partners, wives were often captured and sold, men have had many wives, women have had may husbands too (Polygamy is normal in Tibet in the sense a woman can have more than one husband).

To say that two people getting married in a way that will not impact you is illogical is an illogical statement in itself.

As I said, this is about supporting a law for the greater good whether you like it or not, if you can’t do that, please don’t expect others to support you either 🙂

Anonymous

Children weren’t children then. I’m pretty sure people died at like 40 and thus they got married at puberty. The consummation of the marriage did not occur until sexual maturity and her consent.

Anonymous

Lol another one who’s not reading what I said! Let me spell it out for you: I. Don’t. Care. Who. Gets. Married.

Still doesn’t change my point, by then marriage was different from what it is now.. Also isn’t it shcoking how even today you can marry a child in Saudi Arabia and Yemen?

apha3

Superbly written! If one opts to dislike someone let it be based on lack of intrinsic qualities such as trustworthyness, honesty, compassion, humility or charity to name a few. If one possesses these qualities I can’t imagine a God condemning them because of their skin color, ethnicity, religious or sexual preference.

ercaninbuyukoglan

it is a hadith, which is a “saying” from prophet Mohammed (pbuh), so , yes prophets have special relationship with God 🙂 Also it does not specify who goes to hell or heaven or am I missing something?

ercaninbuyukoglan

Committing sin does not make you a non-muslim and Yes, being gay or having any kind of sexual relationship with anyone with out marriage is sin. Yet marriage strictly defined an established relationship between male and female in islam, judism and christianity.

ercaninbuyukoglan

Brother, men are urged to rob a bank and get rich for happy life. If they get caught then they should not blame judge for jailing them because it is the consequence. Since theft is a crime in constitution so is gay marriage in religion.

What you’re effectively asking them to do is to abandon their viewpoint that the public definition of marriage should be based upon their understanding of natural law, and instead accept the point of view that it should be whatever modern culture thinks is most suitable. Some people are happy to go along with the majority, to take the path of least resistance, but if a religious person really things that a doctrine is important, they’ll use it to define themselves as separate from the mainstream. They won’t take any of this stuff about ’embracing’ the politics of beliefs they find objectionable.

This is made worse by the way that sexual politics has become an international issue, with rich white countries lecturing low income non-white countries about equality. Both sides use it to define themselves as superior to the other, digging in their heels.

Sure, we lecture countries to not kill people and respect thei rights.. how cruel of us

MahmudH

Not really. The USA regularly carries out extra-judicial killings via drone bombings, imprisons people without trial in gitmo bay, carries out industrial scale spying, engineers the violent overthrow of foreign governments is doesn’t like and manipulates the international financial system to punish rival nation-states when it can’t overthrow them, by sinking their economies. Sure, you can cheer when it acts self-righteously on an issue when you agree with it. But if you want to have even a remotely realistic comprehension of how the world works, you should realise that it won’t be perceived as genuine or altruistic by others.

The USA is far from being a good example due to its double standards and Imperial Wars.

However funny thing, we don’t arrest people in the West just because of how they were born and we don’t kill them for it 😮

Shocking!

Gay people pay the taxes that are used to support those poor countries who gladly put gay people into jail, it’s a right then for our countries to stop giving money to the poor countries if they wana keep being evil

Anonymous

Yemen is working towards creating new laws. And Saudi Arabia is messed up in a lot of different ways.

Child marriage, and a lot of the Saudi Arabian laws, involves culture, not religion. Tell me where in the Quran it says it’s ok to marry a child or that a woman can’t drive.

Tyler Janzen

When I grew out of childhood I stopped doing things simply because I was told to do them and started thinking for myself. You can make up an invisible man in the sky and tell me he is going to hurt people if I don’t hurt them first but this isn’t a very rational reason for hurting people. Anybody could make up a God that wanted you to do anything. We need to have good reasons for our actions and beliefs, when people tell us what God wants we need to determine how and why they think they can know this. If we simply believe Without good reason and do what we are told than we are no better than children, and it is very easy to take advantage of and mislead children who trust you.

Wagdy Ehab

Well said Sam. If u r not a Muslim I say thank u for defending Islam with what u just said. It’s seems that u now about Islam more than some Muslims. Because ur absolutely correct the holy Quran said that we should let people do what they wish as long as they don’t harm others period. Now even if a fellow Muslim is an active gay he should not be judged by a brother Muslim, he should be treated as a sinner just like a Muslim who drinks or do drugs or whatever else Islam has forbidden. And how do u treat a another Muslim that sins u either try to help him if u can or if he accepts it or u should avoid him, u definitely don’t judge that’s God’s job. And by the way I’m a Muslim if it doesn’t show but that is the true Islam.

The whole not driving thing is based on their own personal prejudices, I don’t know any verse int he quran that tells you to blindly obey a mean king either

However I did notice polygamy (in a way that beenfits men only) is legal in many islamic countries….

And the quran doesn’t, it’s just that in older times it was normal to marrya child and most islamic nations have not moved on with the new times god knows why

Anonymous

The progressive nature of Muslim countries isn’t advertised. There have been dozens of Muslim women in leadership–in Indonesia, Turkey, Pakistan, Bangladesh, Afghanistan, Egypt, Jordan, and many more. In some of these countries, women make up the majority of Parliament and are even presidents and prime ministers. The Prophet’s wife herself led an army. So it’s a mistake to say that Muslim countries “haven’t moved on with the times.” You could argue that Islam has progressed more, if not as much as, other religions. But that doesn’t make for interesting TV. All we want to hear about is the extremists, right?

As for polygamy, those people clearly don’t read the Quran, and I doubt they’re doing it for religious reasons anyway (more likely political). The Quran says more than one wife is allowed, if the husband can treat them equally. However, the next verse says that it’s not in our nature to be able to treat them equally, so husbands should only have one.

Yes, muslim countries are so progressive that homosexuality is a crime in most of them, true progress no doubt xD

Anonymous

Did you not read what I said? More women have had power in Muslim countries than in AMERICA. Never said some of the governments aren’t corrupt, but it is quite an exaggeration to assume that all Muslim countries are just living in the 1200s. Do some research. You sound like a fool.

The only muslim coutries close to being progressive are Lebanon, Turkey, Bosnia and Albania.. quite the small number compared to the overrall is it not?

And this gives no reply to the comment I made now

Anonymous

Lol, and how do you know that others aren’t? This world is a big place. I SERIOUSLY doubt that you’ve taken the time to research each and every Muslim country. As a Muslim, I stay on top of these things. I think I know it a little better than you do.

Gini coefficient is high in muslim countries, Qatar has not taken Syrian refugees, and for some reason it’s not mostly to muslim countries they’re escaping.

Homosexuality remains a crime in the vast majority of muslim nations.

Polygamy again in a way that benefits men is legal in many muslim countries, you can claim they read the interpreted the quran wrong. Am I to understand millions of muslims therefore don’t know their own book that well?

If they don’t how is islam exactly something to be seen in a positive light?

Nawas

False dichotomy. I don’t need to celebrate something in order to defend someone’s right to live their life as they please under the letter of the law. *That’s* what democracy really means. Telling people that they ought to celebrate something they disagree with is a bad way to approach this. The letter could’ve finished on a more inclusive note of all respective viewpoints if it ended a few paragraphs up.

Aamna Khan

I feel like this article is just another way to pressure us into accepting what people want us to accept. Yes this is a democracy, so we have a right to our opinions and my opinion is to not support this. You’re pretty much saying we should accept this so people like us as Muslims. At the end of the day what is right is right and what is wrong is wrong.

roald

Try this. Discrimination is the act, not the thought.

There are many things that I do not wish to do; however, as a member of society, I do them.