Better things cost more because they are better - absolutely! But things that cost more are not always better. A->B is not the same as B->A. Some clever marketers figured out a long time ago that people perceive price as an indicator of quality, and decided to just price the same thing at a higher price.

As far as something being too good to be true - I think the BDB is ridiculously overpriced for what is in it - maybe $100 worth of parts. It is just a pump, two boilers, and some miscellaneous plumbing and electronics.

The Italian machines aren't ridiculous. They are obscenely overpriced for what is in them.

I have a Quick Mill Vetrano that is a year old. I am considering a dual boiler machine for the temperature stability and was considering the BDB for all the other cool tech features. I could probably sell the Vetrano and pick up a BDB for a wash. But do you think this would be a step back in other aspects, such as durability (plastic vs metal, etc).

Consider this, I believe you could not sell the BDB in a year and get back the same % of the price. I do not believe a plastic machine that can't be serviced by yourself or your local espresso repair will hold its value over time like one that can.

I would not want any machine with proprietary parts or lack of available parts and I want a machine with less electronics rather than more. That is why I want an L-1 over a GS/3.

Italian espresso machines are ones you buy because they are built with the old world craftsmanship that has spanned centuries. They are machines that have emerged from the history of espresso, from its roots.They have no equals in any class. They are the benchmark. Names like Gaggia ( who we got the word crema from),La Pavoni, and Bezzera,just to name a few. The famed E61 holding the line against any technology with ease and the fact that this lineage is grounded in countless millions of espresso bars,homes,and barrista competitions leaves little doubt that with the surplus of parts, machine knowledge and people in love with these machines that this platform is the norm and here to stay. Not an opinion a fact.Wheres on the other hand you have joined a family with no heritage,no history,from a company from the land down under famed for making toasters, farmed out to China to build,with a very shaky start indeed in that its first offering died at birth.So you question price,you question who owns the name. Well that would be like an ant demanding an elephant produce proof hes a more advanced life form. I say and I have said it beforeenjoy your espresso machine for what it is and what you paid. I only suggest a little humility and respect when you imply it rivals those machines that represent 99 % of the history,market,and engineering behind espresso. ca·piche

Better things cost more because they are better - absolutely! But things that cost more are not always better. A->B is not the same as B->A. Some clever marketers figured out a long time ago that people perceive price as an indicator of quality, and decided to just price the same thing at a higher price.

As far as something being too good to be true - I think the BDB is ridiculously overpriced for what is in it - maybe $100 worth of parts. It is just a pump, two boilers, and some miscellaneous plumbing and electronics.

The Italian machines aren't ridiculous. They are obscenely overpriced for what is in them.

I don't know, but you do seem to be making assumptions about me that are -- or, at least, I find them to be -- incorrect.

AlexKilpatrick Said:

To you (I imagine), the taste incorporates a lot of factors. You like knowing you have a machine with a 50 year history, hand-made, etc. etc. That's all fine. Personally, I have a mechanical watch that cost around $2000 and doesn't keep as good time as a $20 quartz casio. But I appreciate the engineering that went into it, like you appreciate the engineering that went into the Italian machines. I don't have the same appreciation for espresso machines. To me it is an engineering problem to be solved, just like the quartz watch is a better timepiece from a timekeeping perspective.

Actually, I don't give a $#|+ about "a machine with a 50 year history," etc., etc. What I care about is having a machine that a) works, b) is well-made, c) is built to last, d) can be repaired when a component inevitably fails, and e) is aesthetically pleasing enough that my wife (and I, for that matter) won't be disgusted by that "thing" on the counter.

As for watches, I have no doubt that a $20 Casio keeps time. But I find it rather ugly, and for that reason, don't want to wear it on my wrist. I own five watches. Two are my "daily" watches, both have quartz movements and keep excellent time; one has a brown leather band, one black. I wear whichever one "goes" with my attire of the day. I have one mechanical wrist watch with a 24-hour face (i.e.: at 12 noon, the hands will be in the "6:00" position on a "normal" watch); it was an anniversary present from my wife because, she said, I need something to think about. I wear it on more formal occasions. I also have two mechanical pocket watches -- a silver one from the early 20th century, and a gold one from the late 19th century. These basically remain in my dresser, although the silver one was my "daily" watch back in college.

AlexKilpatrick Said:

The point of a blind taste test is to see if one machine makes better espresso than the other, subjective to your tastes. That's all.

Perhaps, but the machine is least important of the four important factors . . . There is no difference in the cup between an HX and a DB. Both methods of producing espresso are capable of yielding excellence in the cup. There will, however, be a difference between two specific HX machines; between two specific DB machines; and between a specific HX and a specific DB machine.

No. Well, to you, perhaps, but there is nothing contradictory in them at all. Once again, the machines are not as important as the grinder. The machines are a hot water delivery device; it's the grinder that makes the espresso. Both HX and DB machines -- as a category of machines -- are certainly capable of producing excellent cups of espresso. (Not a perfect analogy but . . . like automobiles with manual or automatic transmission, both will get you to your destination in comfort and safety.) Nothing inherent in the design of an HX or DB is deficient; nothing in the design of an HX or a DB inhibits or prevents the production of excellent espresso.

However, every machine is different and can and will yield a cup with different flavor profiles, just as different grinders do. (This honestly isn't a matter for debate among most people here.)

For example:

cafeespresso Said:

I also purchased the BDB, and at the end I returned the BDB. The BDB is a wonderful machine that produced a smoother cup, but my Expobar pulser produced a more flavorful cup.

Now, in this specific quote, the poster owned an Expobar Pulser for several years, and went out and also purchased a Breville Dual Boiler (BDB) -- presumably with the idea of "upgrading." (My words, not the OP's.) But, in the end, he returned the BDB. Why? Because to his palate, the Expobar's "more flavorful cup" was something he preferred over the BDB's "smoother cup."

"After thirteen months of trouble-free operation, by BDB is in a world of hurt.

The first problem to show up is water leakage. When I get up in the morning, I find that the area around the machine is covered with about a cup of water. It's on a stand with a channel that catches the water, so there's no doubt it's coming from the BDB. I don't know if it's a persistent leak or a warm-up leak, but either way it sucks.

The second problem is strange behavior when the machine comes out of standby mode. Instead of warming up until it reaches the set point, as it used to do, the temperature skyrockets all the way to 208, and temp display never stops blinking. The water in the brew boiler gets super-hot, sputtering like mad if I draw hot water from it.

The only way out of this mode is to unplug the machine and essentially re-boot the processor, so this looks like a firmware problem.

So I called Breville the other day, waiting patiently for ten minutes until I got to their support engineer. When I described the problems to him he said they've had a lot of issues with the firmware issue, and said he would send me a replacement machine. He changed his mind, however, when I sent him my proof of purchase because, according to him, Amazon Warehouse Deals is not an authorized reseller so I had no warranty coverage. He then sent me info on repair centers where I can get the machine fixed on my own dime.

Needless to say, I'm not happy with Breville.

In the interest of curiosity, I took the panels off, inspected all the wires and tubes, and replaced the O rings on the solenoid. The old ones were deformed and crusted, and the solenoid had some burnt coffee on it, to this was a necessary spot of maintenance.

The O ring replacement had no effect on the firmware problem, as expected.

So I'm going to take this piece of junk in for service, and if the repair cost is as high as I imagine it will be, it will be hitting the trash can and polluting a landfill shortly. It's a shame Breville didn't have the foresight to allow users to update their firmware without a service incident. Sad rookie mistake.

I am glad your happy...Thats all that counts.... because it was your money and not mine...I dont have 1200 dollars to gamble withmy espresso brother. Yes where a machine comes from is as important as where it thinks its going.

AlexKilpatrick Said:

I didn't realize I was joining a *family." I guess I had the mistaken assumption that I was simply buying a machine to perform a function.

Symbols: = New Posts since your last visit = No New Posts since last visit = Newest post

Forum Rules:No profanity, illegal acts or personal attacks will be tolerated in these discussion boards.No commercial posting of any nature will be tolerated; only private sales by private individuals, in the "Buy and Sell" forum.No SEO style postings will be tolerated. SEO related posts will result in immediate ban from CoffeeGeek.No cross posting allowed - do not post your topic to more than one forum, nor repost a topic to the same forum.Who Can Read The Forum? Anyone can read posts in these discussion boards.Who Can Post New Topics? Any registered CoffeeGeek member can post new topics.Who Can Post Replies? Any registered CoffeeGeek member can post replies.Can Photos be posted? Anyone can post photos in their new topics or replies.Who can change or delete posts? Any CoffeeGeek member can edit their own posts. Only moderators can delete posts.Probationary Period: If you are a new signup for CoffeeGeek, you cannot promote, endorse, criticise or otherwise post an unsolicited endorsement for any company, product or service in your first five postings.