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Re: "treatment treadmill"

Re: "treatment treadmill"

Originally Posted by Acebird

Isn't it a given that if a colony has an outbreak of AFB the options are burning it or treating it endlessly with antibiotics until another outbreak? I am trying to understand the logic of going treatment free after an AFB outbreak unless it is a laboratory attempt to breed AFB resistant bees.

Well not quite a given. Don't want to get too technical it's another subject but a hive cannot catch AFB from one spore. There has to be several thousand of them fed to just one larva for the larva to actually die of it, after which the infection spreads. So the theory is, a lightly infested hive could be treated with antibiotics to give them enough time to clean out sufficient AFB residue that there is not enough left after antibiotic treatment for symptoms to show again. A heavily infested hive, unlikely they will be able to get rid of enough AFB spores so AFB would just show up again after the antibiotics wear off.
Having said all that, doesn't mean I think it's good practise, I wouldn't do it myself. I just referenced a thread about it that's all.

Originally Posted by Acebird

Where is that grey line? How do you instruct a newbie what to look for or how to tell when that grey line is over the edge. I know if a newbie already spent good money on new equipment he has the greatest chance of success going treatment free because he didn't start with a problem. Maybe you Oldtimer, Roland, Michael B and Michael P, Mark and host of others can judge what is safe and what is not but a newbie cannot.

I would say the grey line is a grey line, it cannot be defined exactly. I don't think that me, or anyone else you mentioned would attempt to tell a newbie just when that grey line is over the edge.
I'm no expert on treatment free nor claim to be. What I do know has been learned from my own treatment free bees, and whatever I've been able to learn from the Treatment Free forum, which to be honest, is precious little. Because nobody on the treatment free forum actually knows much about it, the general vibe is "I don't know how it works and don't want to, just let bees be bees, just do it". Success is defined as not loosing every bee you've got. Not a view I could subscribe to.
I've also read Dee Lusby, which is good in that she delves into things in much greater detail than anyone on the Treatment Free forum. She has a lot of theories and hypothesis, which make interesting reading. But nobody else has been able to replicate what she has done commercially despite many trying. So I have to wonder if it's also about her bees, and her environment.

Re: "treatment treadmill"

Just a few rambling observations. Tetracycline is commonly used in many if not most commercial operations and has been for at least 40 years. I'm not saying that is good just stating what I know to be true. During my years in beekeeping I have seen less and less afb. Not sure when we had our last case of it, at least 3 years maybe considerably longer and such was not the case decades ago. I can't explain this, is it possible that the same hygienic behavior that is being bred into bees might be the reason. Or put another way, is it possible that hygienic behavior might trump resistance. I know Charles Mraz was working on this angle a long time ago I even bought some of his queens. Thoughts anyone?

Re: "treatment treadmill"

Originally Posted by Oldtimer

Well not quite a given. Don't want to get too technical it's another subject but a hive cannot catch AFB from one spore. There has to be several thousand of them fed to just one larva for the larva to actually die of it, after which the infection spreads. So the theory is, a lightly infested hive could be treated with antibiotics to give them enough time to clean out sufficient AFB residue that there is not enough left after antibiotic treatment for symptoms to show again. A heavily infested hive, unlikely they will be able to get rid of enough AFB spores so AFB would just show up again after the antibiotics wear off.
Having said all that, doesn't mean I think it's good practise, I wouldn't do it myself. I just referenced a thread about it that's all.

I would say the grey line is a grey line, it cannot be defined exactly. I don't think that me, or anyone else you mentioned would attempt to tell a newbie just when that grey line is over the edge.
I'm no expert on treatment free nor claim to be. What I do know has been learned from my own treatment free bees, and whatever I've been able to learn from the Treatment Free forum, which to be honest, is precious little. Because nobody on the treatment free forum actually knows much about it, the general vibe is "I don't know how it works and don't want to, just let bees be bees, just do it". Success is defined as not loosing every bee you've got. Not a view I could subscribe to.
I've also read Dee Lusby, which is good in that she delves into things in much greater detail than anyone on the Treatment Free forum. She has a lot of theories and hypothesis, which make interesting reading. But nobody else has been able to replicate what she has done commercially despite many trying. So I have to wonder if it's also about her bees, and her environment.

Re: "treatment treadmill"

I don't know Jim, that's tyoo easy a thing to say from where we sit now, in this day and age. If you had gotten into bees right when the AFB epidemic hit the US I bet you would feel differently.

Perhaps your right. Though I never heard it referred to as an epidemic. I remember many beekeepers talking years ago about antibiotics as a real salvation and I accepted it as such at the time but in hindsight I wonder if everyone had just burned at the time if we would be better off today. Guess I am jealous when I hear Oldtimer talking about how they have never used it down there and they seem to be doing just fine.

"People will generally accept facts as truth only if the facts agree with what they already believe."- Andy Rooney

Re: "treatment treadmill"

Originally Posted by jim lyon

Perhaps your right. Though I never heard it referred to as an epidemic. I remember many beekeepers talking years ago about antibiotics as a real salvation and I accepted it as such at the time but in hindsight I wonder if everyone had just burned at the time if we would be better off today. Guess I am jealous when I hear Oldtimer talking about how they have never used it down there and they seem to be doing just fine.

I don't think anyone other than me refers to it as an epidemic. But the numbers were of epidemic proportions. What would have been interesting is if a State or a portion of a State had burned instead of using sulfa thiazole and burning. Things may have been different. But there is no way to know now.

Re: "treatment treadmill"

In our county in Massachusetts, which is in the middle of the state and goes all to the north and south borders, we have almost no AFB....we also don't have a lot of large beekeepers, but we do have pollination bees come in and through the state.
In 1976, I've been told there was about 40% AFB rate. A new bee inspector burned hives almost daily, and kept it up....until our recent funding issues in the state, he has been an inspector ever since. He ruthlessly tracks down the source of any infection...usually only 1 or less incidents in a year...most beekeepers here couldn't identify it unless it was really obvious.
We don't have manditory burning...it can be controlled with TM and Tylan (I don't believe Tylan is approved for prophlactic use anywhere in the states...but folks openly use it that way). Most folks around here don't treat with TM propholactically anymore (best I can tell). We also have an irradiation program in the state, so used or infected equipment (even comb) can be reused. I don't think all the surrounding states and counties do as well in this regard. Best I can tell, we have it good here in regards to AFB, and it is essentially because of one person. If all government employees were that effective at what they are supposed to do, I'd be keeping bees on Mars by now.

Re: "treatment treadmill"

If I recall correctly the original wording on the Tylan label was that it was "for the cure of American Foulbrood". For the cure? I have not read the label, but I sure hope it doesn't say that anymore.

Re: "treatment treadmill"

Originally Posted by deknow

In 1976, I've been told there was about 40% AFB rate. A new bee inspector burned hives almost daily, and kept it up

deknow

This is a blessing, and a curse. Some of the latest generation of beekeepers say "AFB? I never had any AFB. Never seen it or heard of any, no need to go looking for it the bees are handling it". But are unaware of the hard work and effort that went into achieving this lack of AFB.

Re: "treatment treadmill"

In nature, it comes from robbing an infected hive that has been weakened or died from the disease. So there was a balance. But with modern beekeeping it is transferred by beekeepers. We have a lot of hives all next to each other, and we transfer equipment between hives. This tips the balance in favor of the disease, so we also have to take pro-active measures to control the disease.