No, the simple answer to this conundrum is this: Bioware is afraid of making casual Star Wars fans feel detached from the setting, so they're bending it (breaking it, in my opinion) to bring it closer to what people will recognize, while at the same time adding stuff they think is "hip" and "cool", like jedi armor (I mean, wtf is that all about? What is it supposed to protect them against? Rocks and pebbles from the peasants?).

Of course they don't want players to be detached from the setting- without the setting what's the point? That's the brilliance of KOTOR- the designs were clearly reminiscent of OT-era stuff (it had variants on the Falcon, Tie Fighters, Star Destroyers, etc) yet still unique. And by setting it "thousands" of years in the past, they didn't have to worry about tripping on the continuity of the films.

You can't try to apply some sense of real worldbuilding to a series that always begins "A Long Time Ago in a Galaxy Far, Far Away...."

Also keep in mind that the Star Wars universe is very capitalistic in how it works, and they've always been portrayed as very hungry for new inventions and technology (yes, even in TotJ). While it's entirely possible that technology on a galactic scale regressed over the 3000 years between the KOTOR MMORPG and the movies, there is absolutely nothing in Star Wars lore to support this, and I find it very hard to believe.

where did they fill out the lore between KotOR and Episode One? that'd be an interesting read and something I didn't known they did.

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Also keep in mind that the Star Wars universe is very capitalistic in how it works, and they've always been portrayed as very hungry for new inventions and technology (yes, even in TotJ). While it's entirely possible that technology on a galactic scale regressed over the 3000 years between the KOTOR MMORPG and the movies, there is absolutely nothing in Star Wars lore to support this, and I find it very hard to believe.

where did they fill out the lore between KotOR and Episode One? that'd be an interesting read and something I didn't known they did.

You can read up on it here. There appears to have been some decline in the Republic (technology isn't mentioned, with the exception of the Holonet becoming too expensive to maintain at one point) over a period of about 1000 years in between Tales of the Jedi and the movies, but the rest of the period was relatively uneventful and prosperous.

Because it was never made with that kind of logical consistency in mind. Star Wars is more Space Fantasy than Science Fiction.

On the contrary, George Lucas was extraordinarily interested in maintaining internal consistency and adding great amounts of detail to seemingly inconsequential details. If you see an alien creature walking around in the background in the original trilogy, you can be pretty sure Lucas wrote at least a short section on its name, history and motivations, and probably much more than that. The Star Wars universe was extremely rich even before anyone started dealing with the Extended Universe, and Lucas has always insisted on personally approving anything that was to be added to the canon. Yes, there have been mistakes (with the massive amount of stories written for Star Wars, that's not surprising), but a very good job has historically been done at keeping the internal consistency in the setting strong.

I find it surprising that you say that it wasn't made with logical consistency in mind. Do you base that on anything in particular except for the movies being Space Opera? Can't a fantasy story have logical consistency just because it's not based on science?

That's not what I'm referring to- maybe I'm misunderstanding your argument but everything in Star Wars exists simply because that's how Lucas wants it and he made no effort at trying to find scientific rationale for the stuff (that's not a criticism BTW). So there is no reason to attempt to apply some form of anthropological analysis to the evolution of the Star Wars universe over 4,000 years. It's like the sad attempts to retcon Lucas's mistake on giving out the Kessel Run record in distance instead of time.

As for Lucas personally approving changes made to the canon- that's untrue. He is rarely involved at that level. There are several full time employees at Lucasfilm who handle maintaining that stuff. He is briefed on the high level stuff (ie, we are proposing a new book series with the following plot) and gets input over that along with major character fates. But he doesn't even read that vast majority of the EU material that's out there.

That's not what I'm referring to- maybe I'm misunderstanding your argument but everything in Star Wars exists simply because that's how Lucas wants it and he made no effort at trying to find scientific rationale for the stuff (that's not a criticism BTW). So there is no reason to attempt to apply some form of anthropological analysis to the evolution of the Star Wars universe over 4,000 years. It's like the sad attempts to retcon Lucas's mistake on giving out the Kessel Run record in distance instead of time.

So any attempt to see rationality and consistency in the Star Wars canon is misguided and sad? That's a pretty extreme view of things which I don't think you share with many other Star Wars fans. Any fantasy story can be described like you do with Star Wars. Anything in such a story exists only because that's how the author wants it, with little or no scientific rationale. While you say that isn't criticism, you clearly argue as if it is.

Star Wars has internal consistency, both as standalone movies and in the EU. Why should science come into it? Science has little to do with Star Wars, but you don't need science to have logic.

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As for Lucas personally approving changes made to the canon- that's untrue. He is rarely involved at that level. There are several full time employees at Lucasfilm who handle maintaining that stuff. He is briefed on the high level stuff (ie, we are proposing a new book series with the following plot) and gets input over that along with major character fates. But he doesn't even read that vast majority of the EU material that's out there.

You are indeed right. I checked my facts just now and saw how it works. They do keep a very detailed record of everything in the universe (in what they call the Holocron) and categorize it according to how canon it is. The movies are absolute canon. The TV-series come right after. After that comes the comics, novels and games, all at the same level. Since the comics and the games appear at the same level of canon and are supposed to avoid contradicting each other (by decree of Lucasfilm), it should be assumed that The Old Republic, having come long after Tales of the Jedi, should respect the canon from the latter.

The whole "300 years between the stories" thing is clouding the argument here, so let's just look at KOTOR itself, which suffered from many of the same problems. The events in KOTOR took place merely 10 years after well-documented Tales of the Jedi events, yet the technology has still made many of the same massive jumps. Arguing that this doesn't matter because many scientific laws are broken in Star Wars misses the whole point. Civilization and people in the Star Wars universe work rationally within the rules of the setting they live in, despite its setting being scientifically incorrect. Thus we should be able to apply rational arguments as to their development and reasonable actions over time.

Having said that, I think this whole discussion is pointless. You are obviously a very casual Star Wars fan, while I'm pretty hardcore. A discussion about Star Wars canon between the two of us is meaningless since we have very different levels of respect for the universe it takes place in. I find Bioware's lack of respect for the canon to be insulting, while you don't care. That's pretty much the end of the story.

Other way around- the fact that I don't think its an issue is why I can enjoy what Bioware has done with the Old Republic setting whereas I would probably be a bit more aghast at someone taking similar liberties with early Middle Earth history in a Lord of the Rings game. I think it's great that Lucas has created a great sandbox that allows KOTOR, the EU books, video games, TV shows etc to exist.

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Having said that, I think this whole discussion is pointless. You are obviously a very casual Star Wars fan, while I'm pretty hardcore. A discussion about Star Wars canon between the two of us is meaningless since we have very different levels of respect for the universe it takes place in. I find Bioware's lack of respect for the canon to be insulting, while you don't care. That's pretty much the end of the story.

Yeah man, whatever. If you want my Star Wars nerd bonafides I'm sure you can dig up my epic post from several years back describing the various aspects of the EU books.

To me, CGI movies don't mean diddly. I've seen a thousand terrible games that were hyped with amazing CGI movies. I like what I've seen as far as the short gameplay footage and animations.

I think MMO vets want to see if their traditional archetypes (tank, healer, ranged specialist, etc. etc.) are in there, and I don't think you'll get a feeling on that and how teamwork/interaction is until more of the ATs are revealed.

I don't begrudge fanatics fixating on continuity and what not (the Star Trek movie forums everywhere are all about that), but that has nothing to do with the key gaming factor -- "Is the game FUN?" It seems way too early to know that yet.

You can read up on it here. There appears to have been some decline in the Republic (technology isn't mentioned, with the exception of the Holonet becoming too expensive to maintain at one point) over a period of about 1000 years in between Tales of the Jedi and the movies, but the rest of the period was relatively uneventful and prosperous.

thanks, that's going to be a good read. I wonder if we'll have the expansion pack 'The War of teh Gungan Tribes'

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Both the Smuggler and Bounty Hunter are ranged classes, were the Jedi and Sith focus on melee. The Smuggler wears less armor and works on a unique new system that allows the class to take full advantage of cover in the game. The cover mechanic shows places where primarily ranged fighters can jump or roll themselves into a defensive bonus in the environment and is one of the first times a system like this has been used successfully in an MMO.

Bounty Hunter

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Bounty Hunters have all kinds of weapons at their disposal with flash grenades and barrage fire as well as close combat dirty kicks and point blank head shots.

Hmmm, the underlined sounds more like attacks smugglers would use on bounty hunters.

Teamwork

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For the next few minutes of the demo we watched as a Bounty Hunter and Sith player characters took on the Republic forces. The action was fast paced and the two players moved through multiple opponents in full fury. The Sith is definitely a full melee character with loads of lightsaber attacks and Force Chokes. Also Force Lightning can be used as a crowd control skill, which then gave the Bounty Hunter some easy targets to blast away.

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After the demo the BioWare folks explained that Star Wars: The Old Republic is being made with all the trimmings of an MMO. Full PvP, groups, raids, guilds, auctions, and crafting will play major parts in the game design and have players building up their resources to battle it out across the galaxy.

As far as "working together" goes, crowd control keeps getting some fairly consistent mentions. While perhaps Bioware won't end up slotting their types so specifically within typical MMO canon, I gotta believe some sort of healing/repairing type class is on the horizon, and maybe some type that uses robotics as pets. My guesses are always, always wrong, but maybe I'll be right for a change.

The Trooper is a true design challenge. He has no Force powers to lean on; he doesn’t have a wide array of sexy lightsaber moves. While heavily armored, we didn’t want that armor to provide the Swiss army knife flexibility built into the Bounty Hunter’s power suit. The Trooper is simpler–he has a really big gun and a variety of ways to wreak havoc with it. How would people respond?

They responded well–far better than we imagined, in fact. The scores that day [in internal focus testing-bj] were the highest we had seen to date. It turns out there are a lot of people who like to blow things up. And that’s what the Trooper does best.

I've been blathering about how hopeless troopers are in the movies, and they seem to have realized that.

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The writers were more than happy to help us out here–story-wise, you’re not playing just any Trooper, but rather a rising star of the Republic Special Forces unit known as Havoc Squad. The fact that the Trooper was not a faceless red-shirt, but rather the crème de la crème of the Republic Army, gave us a lot of leeway to create a compelling and visceral fantasy for the Player to experience.

Lastly, a little tidbit to give some hope to us wondering about if there's anything to encourage grouping...

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He’s got the ability to adjust his combat capabilities to meet different challenges. He’s got an array of morale-themed party buffs designed to strengthen himself and his party. He’s got just enough control to be able to maintain range and keep the fight on his own terms.

Still waiting to see what other classes are coming. So far I just have good guy smuggler in mind. I still need my evil character class and nother yet interests me in that area. I would love to play an evil assasin droid or perhaps go bounty hunter droid..as long as its a droid.

I was looking at the Classes page, and stumbled on this Timeline video (I guess it's more of a lively slideshow). I guess it was always there, but I hadn't stumbled onto it before:http://www.swtor.com/info/holonet/timeline

Not that Bioware is trawling through Star Wars paper RPGs for class ideas, but I thought this class index for a pen and paper Star Wars game was kind of interesting to peruse:

A crime lord was the local or planetary boss of a criminal organization. Crime lords would often surround themselves with lackeys, mercenaries, or bodyguards for protection. Crime lords who oversaw smuggling were known as "smuggling czars."

The Rangers were established during the days of the Old Republic by the Senate in a move that authorized regional governments to create a Corps of Rangers charged with apprehending criminals and keeping the peace. While local law enforcement agencies were restricted by jurisdictional boundaries, the Sector Rangers were able to pursue criminals anywhere within a given sector, from one star system to another.

A Shaman (if it fits the Old Republic era, I don't pretend to know timeline stuff) would seem like an obvious choice for a "mystical power" type class:http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Shaman

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A shaman was usually an elder in primitive societies who was thought to have mystical powers or be able to communicate with spirits or deities. They had various roles depending on the species and the level of sentience.

Noghri (pronounced /'no.gɹi/) were a primitive humanoid species. They had steely gray or blue skin, and were extremely skilled assassins due to their abilities in stealth and hand-to-hand combat. Despite their small size, they were efficient killing machines, with claws, fangs, and a sense of smell so acute, they could smell one's bloodline

In addition to the claws, Star Wars comics have portrayed them with various types of melee weaponry and sometimes shields.=============So that's just a few based on that meager RPG pen/paper class list. I'm sure Bioware is picking from something more expansive, and my guesses don't take into account whether said class has a storyline worth telling in an MMO.

I could see some variant on Noghri-Bodyguard as a "tank," Crime Lord as a dark side "pet class" with all sorts of different types to surround yourself with, and Shaman as a light side "healer/spellcaster." But it's just totally wild guessing that may well be wildly off the mark or not fit the era the game is set in.

I kinda forgot they revealed the Smuggler at E3 (but haven't updated the official site with details yet), and then Jedi and Sith are presumed to be classes too. So I guess there are only a few more slots left to fill.

The three classes we saw were Bounty Hunters (long range attackers) who implement blasters, flamethrowers, rockets and jetpacks), Sith (damage and aggro sponges with a number of nefarious force powers at their disposal) and the just-revealed Smuggler (rogueish class that uses a really neat -- and unprecedented [in MMORPGs] -- environmental cover system). We didn't get to see the Trooper or Jedi classes, nor could we squeeze from BioWare's tightly squeezed lips what the other classes would be.

There might be more classes than that, I'm just basing that off the "holonet" page showing 4 classes under each type. I still like the odds on my Shaman and Crime Lord guesses, but I guess if Jedi and Sith are all purpose melee/aggro sponges (i.e., tank-like), then maybe there won't be a separate melee-specific class.

I think because I mostly disliked the later movies I-III, I have a hard time wrapping my mind around troopers and Jedis being buddies, but I suppose I can get used to it.

They don’t wear fancy armor or carry high-powered blaster rifles, but Smugglers are outfitted for action nonetheless. Wearing comfortable, flexible clothing with some custom modifications, Smugglers are able to stay light on their feet and quick on the draw. Usually carrying a fast-firing blaster or two, Smugglers have everything they need to shoot their way out of trouble. Though style is rarely their intent, it seems to come naturally to Smugglers, and their dashing duds generally complement their roguish charm.

While they can only use blasters, it seems like they're designing a lot of different ones. And the drawings suggest not all smugglers dress like Han Solo (though his A New Hope clothing seems an option. And yes, it looks like they can hit the broadside of a barn.

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Faced with choosing an allegiance in these uncertain times, Smugglers have been forced to consider the implications of trying to operate under the tight controls imposed by the Sith Empire. Though never the most patriotic members of Republic society, many Smugglers have decided that siding with the Republic is siding with freedom, and of course, freedom is everything.

Be sure to check out the "Combat Tactics" tab there for videos. The 2nd and 3rd ones demonstrate the "cover fire" mechanic. "Nimble footwork" is mentioned, and it seems like the Smuggler can sort of "dash" into cover quickly.

As far as "group friendliness" goes, one of the videos mentions, "This maneuver breaks the enemies’ charge and provides cover fire to allow the smugglers’ allies time to set up a coordinated counter-attack." fwiw

All kidding aside, I assume each class can be male/female (I've seen female smugglers in screenies). You are welcome to snicker and then make comments about whether female troopers can wear breast plate.

Quote from: Harkonis on June 11, 2009, 01:13:18 AM

Is there any reason that there can't be troopers, smugglers and bounty hunters on both sides?

As per the quote above, the character's factions seem to sort of be explained in their background lore. I'm just assuming the overall storylines for each type has something to do with their faction at the start.

STill, I could easily see some missions that challenge Harkonis the Republic Trooper not to give in to some sort of temptation from the Empire. Or I could see Blackjack the Empire Bounty Hunter feeling screwed over by the Empire and being presented with some mission where he can help the Republic if he wants vengeance, etc. And that giving in to the temptations to "turncoat" causes other ramifications etc.

Although I think of myself as a "Republic" kinda guy, I don't think I could pass up a jet pack and wrist-mounted flamethrower and missile launcher, so the Bounty Hunter is looking good to me.

Because we did all class-specific stories for The Old Republic, we’ve allowed ourselves to basically make, “Knights of the Old Republic: The Smuggler,” its own game. Everything in there, when you’re playing a Smuggler, you feel like a Smuggler.

The adventures are crazy, and madcap, and you’re flying by the seat of your pants, and there’s romantic stuff, and you’re spouting off crazy one-liners, etc., etc.

Then, when you’re playing as a Sith, it’s a completely different game. Everything is from that perspective, you come from a very dark world, you’re on Korriban, you’re dealing with Sith politics, you’re dealing with some very, very dark people who are allowed to do anything they want.

This is all great, I just wonder how far they can carry it. Every MMO I've played burns me out eventually, even LOTRO with its sprinkling of class-specific quests, once you've gone through it and you basically just re-roll a new character to pretty much burrow through the same content all over. After a while, it's tough to feel any sense of discovery in the questing process.

Something like that little "memory wipe gadget" in Men In Black would be the ultimate solution.

A bit on instancing:

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We can’t go into how it all works, but we didn’t want to separate the player base. We definitely are not a… there have been some MMOs that are basically instanced games with common areas. We didn’t want to go there.

What we wanted to do was be able to separate out people just long enough for the parts that were important for it. If you’re going to go have a discussion with your dad Darth Vader, you probably want to go do that by yourself. Or, with your party, you can bring your friends with you.

But you probably don’t want a thousand people there, especially if a fight’s gonna break out, because it wouldn’t really make sense.

There's more, but I have a hoary old fart concert to attend (Clapton/Winwood in D.C.) so I'm signing off for duty today.

fwiw, IGN named this their "Best PC Game at E3" (there wasn't an MMO category afik). I say "fwiw" because E3 awards often seem to be "best game not remotely near its release date" and a lot of game show-honored stuff doesn't quite turn out in the end.

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What do you get when you mix together Star Wars, BioWare and the MMO genre? One of the most intriguing and ambitious games on any system. BioWare's firing on all cylinders with this one, creating a game that has great story and setting, lots of player freedom, thrilling combat and a compelling social aspect. The developers made a lot of promises about how great this game will be and this year's showing proves them right.

Sort of an armored, war-like arch enemy for Jedi (my take on it anywho).

Although I'm enjoying my latest LOTRO revisit, I am hungry for someone to pile up enough interesting quests/missions, that the old "hunt/meat/gather" quests/missions can become something of the past. Then again, if Bioware and Mythic are all under the same roof, maybe we'll be reduced to "Kill 40 Whomp Rats" afterall.

Q: If you can narrow it down to just one thing you'd like to see happen in this industry soon, what would that be?

Greg Zeschuk: I'd probably have Star Wars: The Old Republic out. That would be the one thing. That's my answer. (laughter)

I mean, I'm sort of facetious about that, but at the same time, I think it's interesting because I think it's really going to surprise people.

You play it, and it's interesting because you can really easily solo the game, or you can play in multiplayer. And the solo experience, the character acting, the dialogue flow is like Mass Effect, and you completely forget you're playing an online game.

And then your buddy shows up and you're like, oh yeah! Hey, let's do this together now. It's really interesting because it sort of breaks new barriers. For us in many ways it's the next evolution of storytelling, of sharing these stories and having the flexibility of playing together and sharing these stories.

Interesting, though I don't think it will calm the folks who are concerned the game doesn't sound like it encourages group play at all.

Q: If you can narrow it down to just one thing you'd like to see happen in this industry soon, what would that be?

Greg Zeschuk: I'd probably have Star Wars: The Old Republic out. That would be the one thing. That's my answer. (laughter)

I mean, I'm sort of facetious about that, but at the same time, I think it's interesting because I think it's really going to surprise people.

You play it, and it's interesting because you can really easily solo the game, or you can play in multiplayer. And the solo experience, the character acting, the dialogue flow is like Mass Effect, and you completely forget you're playing an online game.

And then your buddy shows up and you're like, oh yeah! Hey, let's do this together now. It's really interesting because it sort of breaks new barriers. For us in many ways it's the next evolution of storytelling, of sharing these stories and having the flexibility of playing together and sharing these stories.

Interesting, though I don't think it will calm the folks who are concerned the game doesn't sound like it encourages group play at all.

Sound like MMO for me. I mostly play WoW solo. The only time I join group is to have fun with guildmates doing some raid.

Q: If you can narrow it down to just one thing you'd like to see happen in this industry soon, what would that be?

Greg Zeschuk: I'd probably have Star Wars: The Old Republic out. That would be the one thing. That's my answer. (laughter)

I mean, I'm sort of facetious about that, but at the same time, I think it's interesting because I think it's really going to surprise people.

You play it, and it's interesting because you can really easily solo the game, or you can play in multiplayer. And the solo experience, the character acting, the dialogue flow is like Mass Effect, and you completely forget you're playing an online game.

And then your buddy shows up and you're like, oh yeah! Hey, let's do this together now. It's really interesting because it sort of breaks new barriers. For us in many ways it's the next evolution of storytelling, of sharing these stories and having the flexibility of playing together and sharing these stories.

Interesting, though I don't think it will calm the folks who are concerned the game doesn't sound like it encourages group play at all.

Sound like MMO for me. I mostly play WoW solo. The only time I join group is to have fun with guildmates doing some raid.

In a blog post on the Star Wars: The Old Republic website, director of audio and localization Shauna Perry talks about the challenge of recording voice overs for every character in a massively-multiplayer universe.

When they first announced that The Old Republic would be fully-voiced during E3 2009, those of us involved in the more massively-multiplayer side of gaming collectively gasped. The average MMO title has players interacting with hundreds of different characters over the course of the game. Providing real voices for each of those characters as well as the player characters themselves is a monumental task.

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As I said, The Old Republic is the size of at least 10 KOTORs recorded back to back. Basically, it takes a very large team all focused on the same outcome - producing the most VO assets ever produced at the highest quality possible. There are dedicated internal teams at both LucasArts and BioWare, and externally, there are also multiple studio audio engineers and post production teams. On any given day, there can be over a dozen people working specifically on The Old Republic voice-over and that doesn't include any actors!

And there are hundreds of actors working on the project, with recording spanning four cities - Los Angeles , London, New York, San Francisco, and Toronto. The most staggering statistic? When last we checked, the game had surpassed the amount of dialog in the entire run of The Sopranos. According to Perry, the script for the game as it now stands contains enough material for more than 40 Star Wars novels. That's completely insane.

Check out the full blog post to get an idea of how much work poor Shauna is being put through in order to make Star Wars: The Old Republic the most talkative MMO ever created.

Dear freakin' lord. That's a SHIT TON of voice work. I can't believe they're seriously going to be putting in that much voice into a MMO where there's no chance in hell the average player will EVER hear most of it.

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Trust me, the average MMO junkie will hear every single second of it. And then they'll want MORE!

It really spoils players though. I mean, now if they do a SWTOR expansion down the road, players will expect THAT to have wall to wall voiceovers too.

So far, AoC is the most NPC voice-heavy MMO I've played (and more so after some additional voice work was inserted in one of the big updates), but once you hit the areas in Hyboria without NPC voiceovers, it's like hitting a brick wall. You get used to it, but it feels like a letdown when you realize the entire game isn't voiced.

It doesn't bother me much that in LOTRO usually only a sentence or two is voiced, because Turbine does take a lot of evident care in writing their quest text. I don't think the text in AoC really holds up on its own that well, without the voicework to dramatize it. I don't know if that's because Tokien's work is a richer back story than Robert Howard's, or that Turbine's devs are a little more adept at writing story/quests than Funcom's. Just imho, good voice work can make medicore dialogue sound exciting; but flat text just, well, sits there, or the player just quickly clicks through it.

Getting back to SWTOR, I just hope the storylines they're spending a fortune to voice prove worth the effort.