Isnít it perfectly logical to weigh up all the issues before deciding whether to still be a fan? Are you saying itís a moot point whether heís a pedophile or not because of his other behaviour? Surely the most important point of debate would be whether of not he is guilty of the worst crime he is accused of?

It's not a moot point, but his other behavior is reason enough to be turned off. It's not an either/or issue. And, unless the New York Times grossly misrepresented the content of their texts, I'm disgusted by his dealings with Ava. The authors of the article have acknowledged there's no smoking gun where she says that she's underage and he proceeds. But there's certainly evidence that he suspected she was and was concerned enough that he repeatedly asked for verification, and attempted to hide what he was doing. The FBI deeming insufficient evidence is not going to excuse him likening himself to R Kelly.

I said something similar 379 pages back, but we as a society are having to wrap our heads around MeToo stuff. Its way easier for women to get it, but I think for men, theres a learning curve. Its something very few of us really considered and thats as fucked up as any actions these trash humans do. We need to be better. And while I can throw my hands up and walk away from these arguments because I'm done with the guy, I feel like if I can at least respectfully argue the point hopefully i can change some hearts and minds or at least move people closer. I think its important to speak up. No one here is an idiot, some just have more to consider than others.

So sorry if I'm annoying for this and making some of the same points. I just want a better world.

Again, RA's brought this on himself and I am not sympathetic to his disregard for people in his orbit.

BUT... I've said this before the RA scandal... Mandy's been using the divorce and hardships associated with it to get press. I suspect her and her team are riding the publicity on this hard if not actually facilitating bringing these accusations to light. It's a win/win/win for her... she gets to process her grief, boost her celebrity, and help send RA down the river in one go.

Im sorry but this is ridiculous shes been divorced for years and making this all article about herself and trying to advance a future career in music. To her this is publicity. She's remarried for god sakes.

the center of this whole thing should be the 14 year old girl, not Mandy Moore now having the courage to write new tunes.

And none of that is wrong. She's entitled to do it. After putting up with this shit for 5 years or whatever, can't she get a win? We all know how celeb tabloid/PR culture is. Ryan deserves the dings.

I suppose. I have, right or wrong, a hard wired distrust of people's motivations when they're bring stuff like this out for publicity.

I'm a private person (though you'd never get that from some of the trash I've posted here!. I think if I were wronged in this way, I'd sue, walk away, kick RA in the genitals, etc. But, I wouldn't feel comfortable sharing the experience with a tabloid. I'm never so self assured to tell my side of the story; I'm too aware of my own shortcomings to impose my observations as fact.

But, yeah. Given the situation, she's earned it. I'm sure there's plenty of Mandy freaks who were pretty weirded out by her marrying scuzzy Ryan. That alone probably sullied her brand, and THEN she had an awful time on top of it. She probably wants some of her time and stature back.

We've been cognizant for year with how he's treated people. Band members, journalists (especially), fans at shows (drunk ones throwing bottles or shouting summer of 69 don't count), and friends (like Isbell). Think about all those old incidents and compare them to this article. Everything tracks. Its always been manipulation. I read some emails this morning that he sent someone and even then you can see him trying to finesse the situation with sweet talk (non sexual). This is a thread thats been there for years.

We tolerated lots of this behavior because it seemed rebellious, or funny or maybe we hated it and compartmentalized it. But we see now that all of this bleeds into the music. We've been tolerant of all the bad behavior for years (myself included). We can better and and start saying OK thats enough.

Also, just thought of this off top of my head, but does anyone remember when he posted that webcam pic on Tumblr in 08-09 and people joked that it looked like he had just masturbated to some chick named Sarah on there he was ogling for what felt like an eternity? In hindsight, maybe he actually was. Weird times both then and now. Who knows how old that girl was either...
Found an archived thread of it: http://www.tobeyoung.org/showthread.php?t=20463

I've been thinking about her since it came out. Whatever happened to Sarah? She said she was 26?

We've been cognizant for year with how he's treated people. Band members, journalists (especially), fans at shows (drunk ones throwing bottles or shouting summer of 69 don't count), and friends (like Isbell). Think about all those old incidents and compare them to this article. Everything tracks. Its always been manipulation. I read some emails this morning that he sent someone and even then you can see him trying to finesse the situation with sweet talk (non sexual). This is a thread thats been there for years.

We tolerated lots of this behavior because it seemed rebellious, or funny or maybe we hated it and compartmentalized it. But we see now that all of this bleeds into the music. We've been tolerant of all the bad behavior for years (myself included). We can better and and start saying OK thats enough.

Just finished the podcast interview with the NYT reporters who wrote the story, and I highly recommend it for everyone reading this thread. There's some additional context and I think it also helps explain why they wrote the story in the way they did (which seems to be a frequent criticism on here)

I'm still a fan. He's been accused (not found guilty) of one crime. The other women in the article could have free will and chose to date someone who precedes his reputation (Mandy Moore's own words describing him on Maron's WTF). I am not in the court of public opinion, I believe the man is innocent until he's found guilty of a crime. And, lots of my favorite musicians have done really shitty things and they're still my favorite musicians. And, I'm a woman. I've dated narcissists in the past too.

Did anyone ever consider that his point of view could be different. (The underage story aside)
Let's say he was really emotionally interested in those girls. He told them stories to help their music career and maybe it was honest because he really wanted it at that time (Love makes you want a lot of things). And even if it was just his trick to gain their attention there is nothing really wrong with it (most guys use some tricks to gain attention).
They started a romantic relationship, but because he is really jealous he controlled and manipulated them, which is annoying and also not nice but also fairly common. I would say everyone knows jealous people and know how they are reacting in an irrational way.
After the girls couldn't stand it anymore they quit. After quitting it also makes sense that his ambitions to help them any further with heir career where minimized. You don't want to go in tour with you ex would you?

I think there are a few indications that he was really emotionally interested and not just after the sex. For example the many text messages and the threat "i kill myself if you don't respond" (typical reactions for jealous people). Would you actually behave like that if it was just the sex you are after? To me all that means that he is just a very difficult guy in relationships. But that really does not make him a monster.

Did anyone ever consider that his point of view could be different. (The underage story aside)
Let's say he was really emotionally interested in those girls. He told them stories to help their music career and maybe it was honest because he really wanted it at that time (Love makes you want a lot of things). And even if it was just his trick to gain their attention there is nothing really wrong with it (most guys use some tricks to gain attention).
They started a romantic relationship, but because he is really jealous he controlled and manipulated them, which is annoying and also not nice but also fairly common. I would say everyone knows jealous people and know how they are reacting in an irrational way.
After the girls couldn't stand it anymore they quit. After quitting it also makes sense that his ambitions to help them any further with heir career where minimized. You don't want to go in tour with you ex would you?

I think there are a few indications that he was really emotionally interested and not just after the sex. For example the many text messages and the threat "i kill myself if you don't respond" (typical reactions for jealous people). Would you actually behave like that if it was just the sex you are after? To me all that means that he is just a very difficult guy in relationships. But that really does not make him a monster.

You're missing the point. Even if he was interested in these women for broader, romantic rather than exclusively sexual reasons, it was wrong of him to not disclose those until after already contacting, pursuing, and offering to work with these women professionally. Even if you're coworker was interested in you romantically, it would be wrong of him to invite you into his office presumably to work on a project and then you found him completely naked when you got there (which Ryan has allegedly done before).

And so... would he be any less of a piece of shit if he's cleared by the FBI? This kind of equivocation between what's legal and what's moral is so fucking asinine.

Imagine you knew someone in your circle of friends who was a talented musician whose music you appreciated, and then one of your close friends dated him for a while, and then broke up with him. Now, imagine that friend came to you and said that she dumped him because he tried to force her to suck his dick by grabbing her head and pushing it toward his crotch?

Would you tell her to stop trying to tarnish his image in the court of public opinion and remind her that he hasn't been convicted of a crime? I know I wouldn't. I'd console my friend and change my opinion on the basis of the information I was given.

This shit is not complicated. A number of women who have had closer relationships with Ryan than most of us have had are all saying similar things and outlining a pattern of disgusting, manipulative, and potentially illegal behavior. You can choose to ignore them, but don't claim the moral high ground because you choose not to try someone in the so-called court of public opinion. It's moral cowardice.

Do you think these women honestly didn't know Ryan Adams was a dick? If my friend was dating Ryan Adams I would say "I've heard XYZ, not a good idea" because there's obviously all kinds of awful stories about him on the internet. Do you realize women will try to sleep with men to get what they want? Like records produced and opening slots on tours (and then publicly complain when things don't their way after a breakup)... THIS is asinine. To me he is not a piece of shit trash like I keep seeing, he's a human being regardless of what he did or didn't do. If this person was in your family would you still be talking so much shit? How would you feel if comes out that Mandy Moore paid these women to speak up and it was a contrived accusation from this Ava person and his career has been ruined?

Do you think these women honestly didn't know Ryan Adams was a dick? If my friend was dating Ryan Adams I would say "I've heard XYZ, not a good idea" because there's obviously all kinds of awful stories about him on the internet. Do you realize women will try to sleep with men to get what they want? Like records produced and opening slots on tours (and then publicly complain when things don't their way after a breakup)... THIS is asinine. To me he is not a piece of shit trash like I keep seeing, he's a human being regardless of what he did or didn't do. If this person was in your family would you still be talking so much shit? How would you feel if comes out that Mandy Moore paid these women to speak up and it was a contrived accusation from this Ava person and his career has been ruined?

What they knew or didn't know has no bearing on how Ryan chose to behave. Even if they wanted to sleep with Ryan to advance their careers, it would have no bearing on whether or not Ryan should have offered that kind of quid pro quo. No one should participate in a corrupt system where (most often) men solicit (most often) women for sex in exchange for potential career advancement, especially not as a solicitor. It's arguably also wrong to participate in that system as the one providing the sexual favors, but I think it's pretty intuitive that those who lack a powerful position in the system are less in the wrong than those who have that status.

Do you think these women honestly didn't know Ryan Adams was a dick? If my friend was dating Ryan Adams I would say "I've heard XYZ, not a good idea" because there's obviously all kinds of awful stories about him on the internet. Do you realize women will try to sleep with men to get what they want? Like records produced and opening slots on tours (and then publicly complain when things don't their way after a breakup)... THIS is asinine. To me he is not a piece of shit trash like I keep seeing, he's a human being regardless of what he did or didn't do. If this person was in your family would you still be talking so much shit? How would you feel if comes out that Mandy Moore paid these women to speak up and it was a contrived accusation from this Ava person and his career has been ruined?

To flip that on you, do you think any of these women knew, "He will aggressively text you while you're at a movie with your mother, and threaten to kill himself when you don't respond fast enough" and said "Yeah, sign me up"? Stop blaming them for how he acts.
Well, it's not going to come out that Mandy Moore paid them, because most of them told parts of their stories independent of one another at different points of time. So you're now at a point of creating scenarios just because you want to defend him.
Your arguments are literally hypotheticals versus an extensively researched article.

It all boils down to this. Why should women be responsible for how a man acts? It seems less ugly in cases like these where the bad behavior seems less destructive than violent rape, but it's still the same thinking that leads people to ask, "Well, were you asking for it?"

Did anyone ever consider that his point of view could be different. (The underage story aside)
Let's say he was really emotionally interested in those girls. He told them stories to help their music career and maybe it was honest because he really wanted it at that time (Love makes you want a lot of things). And even if it was just his trick to gain their attention there is nothing really wrong with it (most guys use some tricks to gain attention).
They started a romantic relationship, but because he is really jealous he controlled and manipulated them, which is annoying and also not nice but also fairly common. I would say everyone knows jealous people and know how they are reacting in an irrational way.
After the girls couldn't stand it anymore they quit. After quitting it also makes sense that his ambitions to help them any further with heir career where minimized. You don't want to go in tour with you ex would you?

I think there are a few indications that he was really emotionally interested and not just after the sex. For example the many text messages and the threat "i kill myself if you don't respond" (typical reactions for jealous people). Would you actually behave like that if it was just the sex you are after? To me all that means that he is just a very difficult guy in relationships. But that really does not make him a monster.

So we're now at a point where the defense is, "He didn't use them for sex, he just emotionally blackmailed them".

Do you think these women honestly didn't know Ryan Adams was a dick? If my friend was dating Ryan Adams I would say "I've heard XYZ, not a good idea" because there's obviously all kinds of awful stories about him on the internet. Do you realize women will try to sleep with men to get what they want? Like records produced and opening slots on tours (and then publicly complain when things don't their way after a breakup)... THIS is asinine. To me he is not a piece of shit trash like I keep seeing, he's a human being regardless of what he did or didn't do. If this person was in your family would you still be talking so much shit? How would you feel if comes out that Mandy Moore paid these women to speak up and it was a contrived accusation from this Ava person and his career has been ruined?

Perfect response. They were using him the whole time. They could have chose not to sleep with him

Perfect response. They were using him the whole time. They could have chose not sleep with him
Tom Loukas

And he could and should have chosen not to sleep with them regardless of what they wanted knowing that it would have been wrong to do so.

I feel like I'm living in crazy town here. If I walk up to someone on the street and violently beat them, and then it turns out they're a sadomasochist and enjoyed being beaten, I still should never have assaulted someone on the street and it speaks badly to my character if I did.