Is an interesting read if you're interested in the other side of the debate.

Luckily, Symmetry does not have any skin in this game....IE no reason to have an opinion

I bet all the no votes are 90% foreign

You are incorrect, while this has become a US politics dominated thread, the issues involved have long been at play in the UK. British people rioted during the Thatcher years at such an imposition of an effective poll tax- paying for your right to vote.

On the conservative side, and why I find your faux-libertarianism so at odds with your position in this thread, many conservatives oppose the idea of the government collecting so much data on a free citizen for a national ID card needed to exercise the right to vote.

but how do people tell who is a citizen when rights reserved only for citizens, such as voting, are being exercized?

I would ask a counter question- do you believe that bigger government oversight over citizens is the answer?

Phatscotty believes that Big Government is the answer, as long as it's HIS Big Government.

Phatscotty wrote:government size is not the issue. voting accuracy is.

See what I mean?

Last edited by Woodruff on Tue Oct 30, 2012 9:35 pm, edited 1 time in total.

...I prefer a man who will burn the flag and then wrap himself in the Constitution to a man who will burn the Constitution and then wrap himself in the flag.

thegreekdog wrote:Just checking in. Appears there is still no evidence that a lack of voter identification laws leads to voter fraud. Talk to you guys in a couple of pages.

Aye, at least there's one libertarian still hanging on to to the idea that more government oversight on voting rights is a bad solution to a non-existent problem.

I think you should look at it a different way - Phatscotty isn't actually a libertarian. If he's how you would define a libertarian, you'd also be incorrect.

While I'm fascinated by the internecine politics of the already vague libertarians, perhaps your criticisms should be directed more toward Scotty and his libertarian party stuff- Ron Paul and the Tea Party. You seem a little bit on the fringe of mainstream US libertarianism.

Hey, it's not my fault the Tea Party (and Phatscotty) self-identify as libertarians when they are clearly not. And I criticize Phatscotty plenty... even in this thread (!).

It's also not my fault you don't understand libertarianism or the Libertarian Party (of which Ron Paul is not a candidate and of which the Tea Party is not an organization).

Here is a relevant example:

York County Libertarian Party Chairman Dave Moser said in an email:

“Pennsylvania’s new voter I.D. law is redundant, unconstitutional, and a repugnant example of the political wrangling that we all have come to expect from status quo parties and politicians. The purpose of registering to vote is to fully qualify an individual to cast a ballot. That is the vetting process. To impose other forms of identification that an individual might not have other need for is cumbersome and when these other forms come with a price tag from the state they become a defacto poll tax. We here in These United States of America need to further enfranchise the population in the electorial process. Not enough people care to vest themselves in their own governance via the ballot now yet this law just created greater hurdles for those that have taken reasonable steps already to participate. I have seen various reports indicating anywhere from 9-11% of those currently registered to vote in the commonwealth do not have the necessary identification under this new law to vote this November.”

Phatscotty wrote:government size is not the issue. voting accuracy is. I reject flat out your attempts to try to make this an issue about the size of government. Gov't will do their primary functions, and yes that costs money. You can't paint me into an Anarchist who wants no gov't

If you really cared about government size, you would be harping about the programs that cost hundreds of billions, not millions, with projections for future savings.

I care about a program that involves the government registering every citizen with a government issue ID in order to vote. It's obviously the point where your libertarianism breaks down in favour of partisan politics, and where my liberalism merges into libertarianism when it's not corrupted by silly right wing political hackery.

Would you support government registration of your fingerprints and iris scans as part of the ID card you want?

then you have a problem with the concept of voter registration, not voter ID, and certainly not with me or the people of Minnesota

The people of Minnesota already HAVE a perfectly legitimate and workable method of ballot access. This isn't about voter ID, it's about removing those undesireable poor people from the rolls.

...I prefer a man who will burn the flag and then wrap himself in the Constitution to a man who will burn the Constitution and then wrap himself in the flag.

thegreekdog wrote:Just checking in. Appears there is still no evidence that a lack of voter identification laws leads to voter fraud. Talk to you guys in a couple of pages.

Aye, at least there's one libertarian still hanging on to to the idea that more government oversight on voting rights is a bad solution to a non-existent problem.

I think you should look at it a different way - Phatscotty isn't actually a libertarian. If he's how you would define a libertarian, you'd also be incorrect.

I can deal with that. I don't care what anybody tries to call me or what they think I am. Perhaps it is time to accept that I actually am an overall Independent, and you will always have a hard time trying to pin whichever label is convenient at the time to label me with and then use to bash me with.

You're about as "independent" as a Soviet satellite state during the reign of the USSR.

...I prefer a man who will burn the flag and then wrap himself in the Constitution to a man who will burn the Constitution and then wrap himself in the flag.

thegreekdog wrote:Just checking in. Appears there is still no evidence that a lack of voter identification laws leads to voter fraud. Talk to you guys in a couple of pages.

Aye, at least there's one libertarian still hanging on to to the idea that more government oversight on voting rights is a bad solution to a non-existent problem.

I think you should look at it a different way - Phatscotty isn't actually a libertarian. If he's how you would define a libertarian, you'd also be incorrect.

While I'm fascinated by the internecine politics of the already vague libertarians, perhaps your criticisms should be directed more toward Scotty and his libertarian party stuff- Ron Paul and the Tea Party. You seem a little bit on the fringe of mainstream US libertarianism.

No, he really isn't. thegreekdog is very much in line with Libertarians on most issues. Phatscotty is not. Libertarianism isn't really all that vague.

Last edited by Woodruff on Tue Oct 30, 2012 9:41 pm, edited 1 time in total.

...I prefer a man who will burn the flag and then wrap himself in the Constitution to a man who will burn the Constitution and then wrap himself in the flag.

thegreekdog wrote:Just checking in. Appears there is still no evidence that a lack of voter identification laws leads to voter fraud. Talk to you guys in a couple of pages.

but it's common sense that voter ID will crack down on voter fraud

Then, by following that precise logic, we need to be creating ALL KINDS of corporate laws so we can crack down on all this corporate corruption going on. That's what you want, right? That's just...common sense, after all!

...I prefer a man who will burn the flag and then wrap himself in the Constitution to a man who will burn the Constitution and then wrap himself in the flag.

Symmetry wrote:... if you're interested in the other side of the debate.

Though I'm not.

As far as I'm concerned, any legitimate reason for NOT having a Voter ID Law can be overcome with free ID's.

Everyone should have access to a gov't provided picture ID.Everyone should be required to show a gov't provided picture ID at certain times... of which voting is one of them.

What percentage of people who claim they can't get ID's drink alcohol? Ever?How did they obtain said alcohol without a picture ID?Certainly now that they are 40+ they aren't "carded"... but I bet a lot drank when they were younger.

How do these poor people access state provided housing or food stamps? I am assuming anyone too poor to pay for an ID is on the public dole... no? How do we know they're not on the dole multiple times? if they have no ID they could be collecting benefits under 5 different names with no ID for each name.

They idea that you can vote or have access to any gov't provided free shit without an ID is ludicrous.

Symmetry wrote:... if you're interested in the other side of the debate.

Though I'm not.

As far as I'm concerned, any legitimate reason for NOT having a Voter ID Law can be overcome with free ID's.

Everyone should have access to a gov't provided picture ID.Everyone should be required to show a gov't provided picture ID at certain times... of which voting is one of them.

What percentage of people who claim they can't get ID's drink alcohol? Ever?How did they obtain said alcohol without a picture ID?Certainly now that they are 40+ they aren't "carded"... but I bet a lot drank when they were younger.

How do these poor people access state provided housing or food stamps? I am assuming anyone too poor to pay for an ID is on the public dole... no? How do we know they're not on the dole multiple times? if they have no ID they could be collecting benefits under 5 different names with no ID for each name.

They idea that you can vote or have access to any gov't provided free shit without an ID is ludicrous.

That you think the right to vote is "gov't provided free shit" should be a warning sign about how you view the role of government,

That you're not interested in the other side of the debate is disturbing.

That you equate voting rights with purchasing a beer is odd.

That you think the government should have a database of every citizen verges on fascism.

the world is in greater peril from those who tolerate or encourage evil than from those who actually commit it- Albert Einstein

Symmetry wrote:... if you're interested in the other side of the debate.

Though I'm not.

As far as I'm concerned, any legitimate reason for NOT having a Voter ID Law can be overcome with free ID's.

Everyone should have access to a gov't provided picture ID.Everyone should be required to show a gov't provided picture ID at certain times... of which voting is one of them.

What percentage of people who claim they can't get ID's drink alcohol? Ever?How did they obtain said alcohol without a picture ID?Certainly now that they are 40+ they aren't "carded"... but I bet a lot drank when they were younger.

How do these poor people access state provided housing or food stamps? I am assuming anyone too poor to pay for an ID is on the public dole... no? How do we know they're not on the dole multiple times? if they have no ID they could be collecting benefits under 5 different names with no ID for each name.

They idea that you can vote or have access to any gov't provided free shit without an ID is ludicrous.

That you think the right to vote is "gov't provided free shit" should be a warning sign about how you view the role of government,

That you're not interested in the other side of the debate is disturbing.

That you equate voting rights with purchasing a beer is odd.

That you think the government should have a database of every citizen verges on fascism.

It's not disturbing for one important reason. Voter ID is common sense

Symmetry wrote:... if you're interested in the other side of the debate.

Though I'm not.

As far as I'm concerned, any legitimate reason for NOT having a Voter ID Law can be overcome with free ID's.

Everyone should have access to a gov't provided picture ID.Everyone should be required to show a gov't provided picture ID at certain times... of which voting is one of them.

What percentage of people who claim they can't get ID's drink alcohol? Ever?How did they obtain said alcohol without a picture ID?Certainly now that they are 40+ they aren't "carded"... but I bet a lot drank when they were younger.

How do these poor people access state provided housing or food stamps? I am assuming anyone too poor to pay for an ID is on the public dole... no? How do we know they're not on the dole multiple times? if they have no ID they could be collecting benefits under 5 different names with no ID for each name.

They idea that you can vote or have access to any gov't provided free shit without an ID is ludicrous.

That you think the right to vote is "gov't provided free shit" should be a warning sign about how you view the role of government,

That you're not interested in the other side of the debate is disturbing.

That you equate voting rights with purchasing a beer is odd.

That you think the government should have a database of every citizen verges on fascism.

It's nice to see that you feel comfortable responding without actually reading my post.