What is your opinion on Panzer III #813. The "1" digit appears to be painted over a darker background area. Could this Panzer III have been #23? Although the "3" digit also looks unusual, but perhaps this is a trick of the eye.

The renumbering of the tanks after Ochsenkopf seems somewhat chaotic and this has not yet been explained. Some tanks kept their final 2 digits, while others were unnecessarily given entirely different numbers.

I propose that it was a 2 stage process. The survivors of the 2nd company, now the 8 company, renumbered themselves first. They organised the fragments of the old platoons into a single new platoon. They had 3 Tigers left (81, 813, 821). They assigned the numbers 811, 812, 814 for Tigers and 813, 815 for Pz.3. The photo shows the result.

Then later, the two companies combined and everybody got a leading 7 digit. The former 1 company tanks filled out the next 2 platoons, with an effort being made to retain their old digits if possible. Tigers 111 and 112 could not go into the new 1st platoon so they got entirely different numbers, with 111 becoming 71 and 112 becoming 724 as we know. I am betting that 121 became 721.

I think this tank was 212, then 812 (with a black 8), then 813, and finally 713.

I still go with Tiger 21 for the later 712. What we see on Tiger 712 is a changed turret number but with his original "1" still in position. We know now Tiger 21 had second version mudflaps and so we can minimize the possibilities and don´t think there was another Tiger with this features.
Tiger 21/712 had no Feifels and mounted jerry can instead.

Hartmut, I think you are right. I think that we have "21" in Fort Benning.

In that case, the right side of the tank would look like this;

The number is off-center but it's not implausible. In fact the same artist made the left side off-center also.

The unusual features of the tanks (Feifels removed for jerrycans, rare mudguards, turret bin support at a small angle) are strong supporting evidence, but it was always possible that 2 Tigers had these features at the same time.

However, as you point out, the "1" digit seems to be the original marking. The "7" and "2" are thinner, made by a different hand.

And now, as you point out, we can see that the "1" on the left side matches the digit on "21". It would be impossible to match the digit on "221".

Ineresting too bad we can't see the trunnions to see if pattern matches. What about the info in Tiger without a home by Richard Cox which says the 1 was painted over a 2 on the starboard side and the last original number being the one not visible ?.
Page 29 " In addition , a closer examination of 712's turret revealed more of the vehicle's history than its final tactical numers would normally have allowed. For like a trio of footnotes that had nearly gone astray , there were three other digits patially visiible on the right side of the turret. The first was an eight, which (page 31) had been previously painted just under the starboard 7 . In turn , the eight had itself been painted directy overthe faibter remains of a two. The third number was aalso a two, and it had been painted under the starboard one. Their presence reveals that Tiger 712 had been assigned at least two other tactical numbers before its capture. The first beginning with a pair of twos , with the last digit remaining untermined (22?). The second beginning with an eight followed by a two, wth its last digit also open toconjecture (82?).
Then we have in Tiger 1 & II kampf und taktik by Thomas L Jentz page 65 Am 13.April1943 501 having eight tigers 01, 01, 712,721,722,724,731,732 plus 1 Tiger 111 from 1 504. And again n 19 April 1943 five Tiwrs 111, 712,724,731,732
The second 01 in fist list is probably a typo and was supposed to be 02 just a guess by me. Was the id of 721 ad 722 ever figured out?
Also the chart of damage to the second tiger at Robaa does not match damage on 712s hull or turrert.
Seems like the new pic of 21 has raised a lot more questons than it has answered.
I was thinking maybe 712 is a combo tiger of 21's turret or hull wth 221 but if tiger without a homes previous turret number info is correct it is not 21's turret. It also can't be the robaa chart tigers turret as that does not match. Also the robaa chart
Hull damage does not match.
Could 2/501 had three tigers with later production fenders 21, 833 and 712. Ex 22? , 82? If Tiger without a homes previous numbers are correct.
Also to bad we can't see 21's right rear hull side to see if it has the toolbrackets.
Just some observations. Regards Allen

Let's assume that renumbering didn't occur often, but only for a significant reorganisation.
The evidence supports that; e.g. after losing Tiger "71" the company didn't renumber one of the remaining Tigers to be the company command (see the two manifests of Tiger survivors).

So, we will assume that no renumbering happened during the "7XX" period. Tiger "712" was never anything else beginning with "7". Its prior number, according to the photo evidence, began with "8".

Now, look at the photos of "712". The central "1" was not painted at the same time as the "7" or "2". It is thicker, and more carefully done.

We can't say how old this digit is, but we can say that it existed before the number was "712". The previous number therefore began with "81".

What could it have been?

Possibly "811", but then why did some other Tiger become "711"? Easier to keep the last digits unchanged.

Possibly "814" but the same logic applies. Some other Tiger became "714" and that is a better candidate for "814".

Possibly "813" but that number belonged to a Pz.3, and before that, to a different Tiger.

Possibly "812". But that would be after Ochsenkopf, when "813" was a Pz.3. It was not "812" at the time of Ochsenkopf and it was not "212" originally.

Possibly "81".

Now, IF this Tiger was "81" then it is the obvious candidate for "21".

IF this Tiger was "812" then the "2" digit was painted by the "bad" artist, and the "1" is again from the previous number. So again it goes to "81".

- If both "21" and "221" have folding fenders, the Manouba Tiger becomes difficult to explain, and the damaged Tiger from Robaa also becomes troublesome.

David

He could be as good Tiger 211/811, wich we only see in parts at Beja. Except from the fact that the front lower hull plate on Beja 811 seems not to show any signs of a 2.Komp. typical spare track rack.

Thanks for reply David.
I have been pouring over 712 pics again and found what I think are the remains of the 2 under the one. I am
going to post the cropped pic and one put green arrows pointing to first 2 remains and possible top loop of second 2. It is just between the top of the 7 and 1. http://s205.photobucket.com/user/allenda...html?sort=3&o=1

That second "2" is so faint that it could be photographic artefacts or dirt on the tank - which has patches of paint on the turret side. I am not convinced.

I have been peering at the new photo of "21" and comparing it to "712" as found in the yard, and as shipped to the USA. We can see very little common features of the two, and they are very anonymous.

Of course, the folding mudguards and the special jerrycan storage, plus the slightly tilted turret bin holder, are strong indicators of a match; but two Tigers could have had them. The apparently identical "1" digit pushed me over the edge here.

Here's what I found. An unusual dark mark from the spillage of (probably) oil through the left-hand water drain on the rear plate. Not very easy to see in the "21" photo, but it is the darkest mark on the bottom rear plate in both photos.

hello David
I agree that the mark that may be the faint top of the 2 could be photo artifacts or dirt but it seems to be in a spot that if a two were painted their would fit spacing for 221.
Looking at Tiger I & II Kampf and tatics by Jentz podzun pallas german edition 2000 Jentz has its previous number as 821 on side view of it in collection point in Tunisia. I know captions have been wrong before. I have probably read that before and forgotten it just thought I would throw it out there. I can scan the pic and caption and post it later or tomorrow.
I found an anomaly on under the track adjusting port on right side of 21 that does not appear on 712. It looks like a piece of metal welded there but it could be anything and nothing conclusive. I don't think it is clear enough in grove pic after capture but it does not look like it is there. also the side view in collection point or harbor undloading but like I said it could be a dried clod of mud that fell off. It appears to me more solid but I could be seeing things I want to see. what do you think?
ebay

The renumbering of the tanks after Ochsenkopf seems somewhat chaotic and this has not yet been explained. Some tanks kept their final 2 digits, while others were unnecessarily given entirely different numbers.

I propose that it was a 2 stage process. The survivors of the 2nd company, now the 8 company, renumbered themselves first. They organised the fragments of the old platoons into a single new platoon. They had 3 Tigers left (81, 813, 821). They assigned the numbers 811, 812, 814 for Tigers and 813, 815 for Pz.3. The photo shows the result.

Then later, the two companies combined and everybody got a leading 7 digit. The former 1 company tanks filled out the next 2 platoons, with an effort being made to retain their old digits if possible. Tigers 111 and 112 could not go into the new 1st platoon so they got entirely different numbers, with 111 becoming 71 and 112 becoming 724 as we know. I am betting that 121 became 721.

I think this tank was 212, then 812 (with a black 8), then 813, and finally 713.

David

Schneider in his TIK1 gives a tank number list for the 7.Komp. of 10.PD wich I think is incorrect for the time frame he put it in. But as a end configuration it seems very correct, I mean including the Tigers from the 8.Komp.

Probably the 8.Komp. still exist but only with Panzer III and Panzer IV.

There is some logic in that organisation because they had Zugführer Tigers left with Tiger 121, Tiger 131,Tiger 141 and Tiger 221.

So the 3. Zug was leading as known with 131=731.

The 2.Zug as known by 121 = 721.

4.Zug dosn´t exist anymore and so 141 jumped in as 722.

1.Zug was leading by 221 = 711 and so the tanker who know each other from the 2./701 stay together in the 1.Zug.

But of course, this configuration was made by question of personal I guess.

Tiger 111 and his commander became chief of the Kompanie and the Tiger was #71 therefore.
That mean the 1.Zug of 1./501 dosn´t exist anymore and was for the 7.Komp. organised new with
Tiger 221(821?)=711(Zugführer), Tiger 81(21,81,712)=712 and Tiger 813=714.
There was no place for 112 in the 1.Zug now and he jumped to the end of the 2.Zug with #724.

We have a total of 10 Tigers left from 701 and Schneider forgot just Tiger 71 and Tiger 01 in his list.

David yes that is true about using bad photos and trying to id differences when there is not much to compare.
I have some last questions on the 21, 712 debate for now.
So we agree that 21 and the pow tank are most likely the same vehicle?
When the new photo came up and I agreed that it was probably the Pow Tiger based on my thinking that 21 had a box added to the side of its bin similar to that vehicle.
My question is 712 has a horizontal box added to the top edge of its bin like some other 2nd company tanks 813 and 833 being others if my memory is correct.
1. would they have done a turret bin swap ( probably not most tigers seemed to have kept their original bins)
2. would they change boxes from a vertical style to a horizontal style ( possible and the easier than changing out a whole turret bin, but why if the horizontal upper style was an earlier mod and one of these seems to have survived on 712)
Sorry not trying to be difficult just some things that crossed my mind.
here is another not so great quality pic from tigers without a home showing left side of 712 in collection point in Tunisia. disregard the text and arrow it is a pic I had on photobucket for comparing its box to 813's box.
Allen

There is no doubt in my mind that the "712" used to be "21".
However there is still the unexplained claim that a "2" was found below the "1".

It's possible that this tank was "221" originally but was reassigned to be "21" after damage to of the company commander's tank at Robaa. But this new photo shows no signs of an underlying "2" or "1", and the visible "2" and "1" don't have tonal differences.