I agree with james all these wpd followers do is deflect and deny that their leader is flawless and perfect. Arguing with cultist is like touching a stove twice. Done posting on this thread
Will still look at it, but no more posting.

slimdabuddhist wrote:I agree with james all these wpd followers do is deflect and deny that their leader is flawless and perfect. Arguing with cultist is like touching a stove twice. Done posting on this thread
Will still look at it, but no more posting.

This is a strawman - nowhere in my replies did I say that WPD's abbot is perfect.

And that's because I've put across some points such as:

1. News alleging that the abbot's claim of a man being reborn in heaven is fake. But no incriminating evidence yet.

2. The current abbot of Wat Paknam's issue with the vintage Mercedez Benz. I wonder why he didn't give it away. (I didn't do my research for this one)

3. Why, many years ago, did the WPD's abbot held land in his name?Why didn't he transfer it to the temple?

I do have my doubts, so I'm here to discuss the "correctness" of certain practices of the temple.

I respect your opinion (that the temple is a cult), but I would like to know why.
The same goes for Jameswang. He said there's another rule about not claiming to have super powers. And I asked if he could clarify which rule. But since I couldn't find it, and he didn't reply me, I suspect there's no such rule at all.

Feel free to come back when you've any claims supported by strong evidence. We will appreciate it.

Warmest regards,
Exonesion

“Meditate, Ānanda, do not delay, or else you will regret it later.” The Buddha - MN 152

exonesion wrote:He said there's another rule about not claiming to have super powers. And I asked if he could clarify which rule. But since I couldn't find it, and he didn't reply me, I suspect there's no such rule at all.

You obviously did not try very hard to find it. It is in the Pātimokkha rules, Pācittiya 8.

8. Whatsoever Bhikkhu shall tell one not received into the higher grade (of the Order) that the (speaker or any other Bhikkhu) has extraordinary spiritual gifts, even when such, is the case--that is a Pācittiya.

i.e. There is no offence in telling another fully ordained bhikkhu, but there is in telling a novice or lay person.

Bhikkhu Pesala wrote:You obviously did not try very hard to find it. It is in the Pātimokkha rules, Pācittiya 8.Buddhist Sacred Texts

8. Whatsoever Bhikkhu shall tell one not received into the higher grade (of the Order) that the (speaker or any other Bhikkhu) has extraordinary spiritual gifts, even when such, is the case--that is a Pācittiya.

i.e. There is no offence in telling another fully ordained bhikkhu, but there is in telling a novice or lay person.

Thank you venerable for pointing out what the "other rule" Jameswang mentioned.
And I admit I didn't do my homework about the Patimokkha. This shows Jameswang knew more about the rules than me, haha

But the point of contention is whether the abbot's "case studies" constitute a breach of either:

As I've expressed in a previous post, how do we know if the abbot is lying about his meditative attainments?
But what is more interesting to note, is that the abbot didn't explicitly say that he used his meditative attainments to see people's past or their future. It was implied. So if the abbot didn't explicitly mention about his meditative attainments, how can he lie?

And because it was implied, does it violate Pacittiya 8? That's because he didn't "report, or talk, or share" about his meditative attainments, only implied it. I'm interested in people's views over this, especially venerables who are well-versed in the Patimokkha. I believe the issue will be deliberated over by the Sangha Council and an appropriate measure will be given

But to be very strict, it's best for a monk not to disclose or even hint that he has any meditative attainments - to prevent any doubt that one broke the precept. Regardless of this, I find the case studies amusing. Logically and karmically speaking, the case studies don't seem too out of place, and there's nothing that raises any red flags or abnormalities. And I believe the case studies achieve its intended effect, to share about the Law of Karma to those who listen and convince them to (1) Avoid evil, (2) Do good, and (3) Purify their mind.

exonesion wrote:As I've expressed in a previous post, how do we know if the abbot is lying about his meditative attainments?

Such a thing cannot be verified externally which is the catch-22 that a wise bhikkhu would very clearly understand and therefore not say anything in the first place. Meaning he wouldn't even beg the question or invite the attention to such a matter because it would just confuse people. This monk probably intended to stoke faith and/or praise, but the uncertainty that is overshadowing both is clearly doing the most damage.

Even if I were to post solid evidence or articles you'd say it's either false or the media is trying to damage your reputation. So like I said again, no point in putting my hand in stove again. And no post and any other media outlet that disagree with wpd is out to get you guys. and dhammakayauncovered is not biased at all, right?

Neither do true religious leaders use politics as an excuse to hide behind. In fact, they must stay away from politics at all costs.
Lord Buddha founded and fostered Buddhism at a time when Northern India knew nothing of
democracy and was ruled by absolute monarchies. Most importantly, perhaps, credible religious leaders don’t portray themselves as victims, are forgiving and encourage their followers to do the same.
That is what distinguishes spiritual leaders from their political counterparts. Buddhism in particular teaches that once we consider ourselves a victim – as being persecuted for whatever reason – the “ego” immediately comes into play, which leads to all kinds of problems. The temptations of self-pity, fear and anger arise, all of them the biggest enemies of Buddhism.

Yall claim to be tryna to stay outta politics but wpd are the biggest hypocrites ever on politics. Why have a tv channel that is 24/7 seems strange that other buddhist sects don't have one? Yall have news to pat yourselves on the back at the end of the day. It's okay if a government is supporting you but when your leader is accused of a crime and fail to actually prove himself innocent yall play the victim card.

exonesion wrote:As I've expressed in a previous post, how do we know if the abbot is lying about his meditative attainments?

Such a thing cannot be verified externally which is the catch-22 that a wise bhikkhu would very clearly understand and therefore not say anything in the first place. Meaning he wouldn't even beg the question or invite the attention to such a matter because it would just confuse people. This monk probably intended to stoke faith and/or praise, but the uncertainty that is overshadowing both is clearly doing the most damage.

I agree.

slimdabuddhist wrote:
if I were to post solid evidence or articles you'd say it's either false or the media is trying to damage your reputation. Apparently bangkokpost and any other media outlet that disagree with wpd is out to get you guys. and dhammakayauncovered is not biased at all, right?

You misunderstand me.
Nowhere did I say that Dhammakayauncovered is unbiased, because it is not. And so is Bangkokpost.
The difference between these two websites, I believe, is the quality of evidence they proffer.

On the one hand, WPD and Dhammakayauncovered has all the information it needs, so it is in the position to report facts. (Some may prefer to assume that the temple is "evil" by nature and is out to "brainwash" people)
This is an opinion that I cannot argue. But since it is baseless speculation, this is an opinion that cannot be taken as fact.
I have advanced arguments in my earlier posts about the Dhamma teachings that WPD teach. But they still stand uncontested.

So instead of addressing them, you've resorted to saying WPD followers are "cultists". Again, this is an opinion I cannot argue.
But you could have argued that we are cultists by finding sources (From WPD's official website) that suggest WPD "twists" the Buddha's teachings.

On the other hand, Bangkokpost reports about WPD from afar and based them from hearsay.(How would the news editors or news reporters know what's really happening in the temple if they didn't attend the temple regularly and interact with the monks?)

And on the contrary, sometimes, although extremely rare, Bangkokpost reports on something which I think is true and important. And one of that was why the abbot held on to a land deed, but that was many years ago. So, slim, I do read the Bangkokpost, but a lot news they have to offer are just speculation.

May you be happy

Warmest regards
Exonesion

“Meditate, Ānanda, do not delay, or else you will regret it later.” The Buddha - MN 152

slimdabuddhist wrote: Yall claim to be tryna to stay outta politics but wpd are the biggest hypocrites ever on politics.

WPD says it's apolitical. It's the sensationalist news media that struggles to show that WPD is political (yellow or red).
I mentioned earlier that the news media says that WPD is political just because Thaksin is seen in the ceremony.
Again, I'll ask the same question as before:If a famous murderer is seen in one of WPD's ceremony, does this mean that WPD is supporting the murderer?

Why have a tv channel that is 24/7 seems strange that other buddhist sects don't have one?

DMC TV, is, or was, a 24/7 channel that caters to devotees around the world, so they can watch the Dhamma programs on regardless of the time.
(I don't like the lame cartoons though, cause they're more for kids).
But even if other Buddhist organizations don't have one, why does it seem strange to you? Could you explain?

It's okay if a government is supporting you but when your leader is accused of a crime and fail to actually prove himself innocent yall play the victim card.

What happened to innocent until proven guilty?

Warmest regards
Exonesion

“Meditate, Ānanda, do not delay, or else you will regret it later.” The Buddha - MN 152

Thailand?....military junta running the country? Even when a popular democratically elected gov't is in charge this is somewhat of a joke. In thailand if you are in the way and don't get out of the way then you are guilty and proof is sort of a secondary sort of circus act sometimes....not always though.
chownah

exonesion wrote:As for your post about the music video and that your allegation that the human rights may be copied from somewhere, may we know where? We could use some mention of that somewhere. And I don’t think a music video posted on their site is enough to discredit the website.

I wonder if you're just pretending to be unintelligent. But never mind, I'll give you the benefit of doubt, be more direct about what I think: It's a fraudulent website.

From my samplings, the supposedly older postings are just copied material from elsewhere. Only the more recent ones are original, and they are specifically on Dhammakaya.

Seems obvious to me it's a (poor) con PR job.

I was able to find other sites that have the Dk material also so it doesnt look like its only other stuff. Based on what ive been told the site is blocked in Thailand so it makes sense the posts would be on multiple sites.

A few more statements. On Pornchai. im inclined to believe he was just acting on his own. I beleive Dhammakaya does sponsor WLBY or whatever it is. but theres a good chance Dr. Pornchai was just acting on his own with regard to Ashin Wirathu. Given that there was an attempt to remove him i think thats reasonable.

Yes Im aware of that rule Bhikku Pesala pointed out.Thank you bhante. But actually if you look at LP Dhammajayos sermons he frequently says "this is only a fairy tale" to help understand the law of karma. so you "could" argue he isnt actually claiming this since he doesnt say it directly. But generally his followers do beleive he knows via meditation even tho he doesnt say it explicitly so i suppose this would still count. its a minor violation tho.

I do want some of the ppls thoughts on this tho. A monk considered a master of the super always right forest tradition making the claims explicitly.

Thailand?....military junta running the country? Even when a popular democratically elected gov't is in charge this is somewhat of a joke. In thailand if you are in the way and don't get out of the way then you are guilty and proof is sort of a secondary sort of circus act sometimes....not always though.
chownah

Speaking of which, heres a situation that has many parallels to whats going on now.

Heres a quote from book thats banned in Thailand. This is my response to the random accusations that all happened to have come to light during the Dictator's reign. You'll notice a few similarities, just change the people and accusations.

Religion reverted back to a royal-centered activity, reinforcing the idea of the king’s dhammaraja and devaraja godliness. Pin also helped regain full palace control over the sangha, a process that involved one of the most crude and cynical displays of royal power during the period. In spite of gains the Thammayut sect (for background this is part of the super-always right forest tradition) had made just after the war, during the 1950s the rival Mahanikay school, backed by Phibun, retained a number of top sangha administrative positions. These monks blocked the palace’s plan to abrogate Phibun’s democratizing Sangha Act of 1941 and restore King Chulalongkorn’s 1902 code, which allowed the throne direct control over the monkhood. Leading the Mahanikay resistance was Phra Phimontham, the abbot of Wat Mahathat, the foremost Mahanikay temple, located near the Grand Palace. Phimontham’s abilities as a wat manager and leader, his monastic discipline, and his religious scholarship were undeniable. By his high rank, he was one of the monks who oversaw the king’s ordination in 1956. In the 1950s he was a certain candidate for the sanghanayok, or sangha premiership, and after that possibly supreme patriarch. Very politically minded, and with a power base rooted among activist monks in northeastern temples, Phimontham had long fought Thammayut elitism as well as government oppression of peasants. When the government said communists should not be allowed in temples, Phimontham countered that a good monk will accept anyone, communist or not. Phimontham’s obstinacy and political views rendered him, to the palace and government, a serious threat. Beginning in the Sarit period, they took strong steps to repress him. In 1958 the Thammayut supreme patriarch died. The presumed heir was the sangha prime minister Plot Kittisophana, a Mahanikay monk whom palace offcials had found fairly cooperative. But they worried that Plot’s vacated sanghanayok place would fall to Phimontham. Working in the palace’s favor was the fact that Plot himself deeply disliked Phimontham. After the supreme patriarch died, the palace, represented by Pin and Prince Dhani, cut a deal in which Plot would be promoted in exchange for freezing Phimontham’s rise. Plot also agreed to abrogate the 1941 Sangha Act and reinstate the royalist act of 1902. Days after his installation on May 5, 1960, Plot obliged. He named the Thammayut monk Juan Uttayi sangha premier. A few weeks later, after the new sangha cabinet declared a policy of weeding out communist monks, Phimontham was arrested and charged by police, falsely, with homosexual behavior, improper dress, and communist leanings, and was ordered to disrobe. When he refused, in October Sarit and Pin had him dislodged as Wat Mahathat abbot. Two weeks after that he was stripped of all of his clerical titles and reduced to a common monk. The scandal rocked the sangha and the public. Phimontham was released from jail after several weeks for lack of evidence. (this was b4 they passed the law stating monks had to be forcibly disrobed if detained i believe) But he returned to Wat Mahathat as a rank-and ﬁle monk. Plot meanwhile created a new sangha act that, based on the 1902 charter, recentralized administration under Thammayut control. The sangha premier and cabinet were eliminated, and replaced with the mahatherasamakhom, or sangha council, made up of the most senior titled monks, which in numbers the Thammayut dominated. This new act had several important effects. Although doctrinal differences between the schools had become less signiﬁcant, putting Thammayut on top ensured that the sangha remained closely allied with the palace, whoever controlled the religious afairs department of the Education Ministry. The monks would advance the palace agenda. This achieved, on June 20, 1962, Phimontham was declared a threat to national security for supporting communists and rearrested, under Sarit’s order. He was forcibly disrobed in a police station with Sarit and two top Thammayut sangha council members watching, and imprisoned for four years. In prison he wore white robes as a symbol of his rejection of civil and royal authority over the sangha. Phimontham’s neutralization completed the palace’s capture of national culture. In schools and temples, history, worship, and tradition could now be manipulated to ensure unquestioning support for Chakri culture and power, and for the triune of nation, religion, and king. By the mid-1960s the memory of 1932 and the Phibun-Pridi interregnum was almost completely snuffed out, or twisted into something evil"

The King Never Smiles. Pg 152-154

For the safety of ppl in Thailand i will not provide a link, dont want any1 getting arrested. Especially with that Single Gateway thing.

The Thai government is corrupt, and it persecutes the Dhammakaya movement due to an irrational fear that it poses a threat to the state. This persecution has nothing to do with whether the Dhammakaya movement is a good thing or not. Ho hum. Now pass the butter.

Interesting that the thread hasnt moved at all since i left. Anyways popping in again (shortly) to share a few things. I hope i dont somehow start up the fighting again but I think these are some nice sources to share.

First off, yeah BkkPost is totally not biased. it even says "The Newspaper you can Trust" on it.

If you've been reading the other sources ive been putting throughout this thread in addition to these you'll notice a bit of a difference in what newspapers in Juntaland say about the case and what news from the free world are saying.

Since I dont really enjoy being on here I hope i dont inadvertedly start the thread up again, I prefer it stay quiet, but since the Bangkok Post archives a lot of their articles I think it would be a good idea to share this here before they lock it up. If you guys remember Dr. Stephen Young mentioned earlier, the pro-junta yellowshirt who had a super secret meeting with Dhammakaya and because he was special he learned all of the super secret crazy doctrines nobody has ever heard of from several "sources" (if you read that piece earlier, every single 'source' was unnamed). Well heres another piece from him.

It seems that a return to normalcy has been achieved since the Department of Special Investigation in March ended its search of Wat Phra Dhammakaya for its elusive former abbot, Phra Dhammajayo. This is good news for Thailand as it will promote a more welcoming environment for political reconciliation and honest elections.

From whatever perspective you adopt, the situation at Wat Phra Dhammakaya was abnormal.

A religious institution allegedly having about 6,000 secret cells of operatives around Thailand is not a normal religious entity. It has instead been seen as a secret society. A religious personage like Phra Dhammajayo who claims the powers of a Bodhisattva or a Taoist celestial master able to visit heaven and hell and shape the karma of our lives is not normal in Theravada Buddhism, Christianity or Islam.

It is more in line with the leadership claims in Chinese White Lotus millenarianism where belief in the supernatural is fused with dreams of political upheaval here on Earth.

The wat's programme to remove "dark" forces from Thailand in order to bring about the reign of "enlightened" persons of pure virtue and excellent karma seemed to be an occult movement, not a normal religion.

The "dark" forces opposed by the wat's inner circle of leaders were the traditional social and political institutions of Theravada Thailand. In driving forward its programme for fundamental change to Thai traditions, the wat's leadership contributed much to the destabilisation of Thai politics over the past 15 years. That was not normal Thai political behaviour.

Nor was it especially secular or democratic because the inner occult teachings and related political agenda were never disclosed to the public as the real mission of the wat and its followers.

With the wat now under the control of more normal Buddhist monks and with the former abbot out of public sight, Thailand can begin to move forward with self-confidence in its core national values and pride in its aspirations for better lives for all.

The sagacity and astute finesse of the government in returning normalcy to Thailand in this case has been remarkable. In my memory of Thai politics, which goes back to 1961, I can recall no similar challenge to fundamental Thai institutions which was resolved so adroitly...

So yeah, for the record, this guy is the "other" source besides Mano Laohavanich that Dhammakaya has a super secret crazy doctrine. Sounds like im reading a piece on the Dalai Lama straight from the Chinese Ministry of propaganda (those are real, a lot of them are a bit funny like this nonsense above). Its quite fitting that the piece is on the Bangkok Post of all places. If you check his profile Dr. Young has written other pieces for BKKPost also, they're quite endearing to Dear Leader. But hey, with an approval rating almost as high as Kim Jong Un why not sing him praises?

Too bad when the Dictator decided to enlist somebody else to convince the public Dhammakaya was some wacko cult bent on world domination so the Junta would have an excuse to seize the temple that he didnt pick some1 who actually knew Buddhism. What he's describing isn't even close to
the Theravada or Mahayana concept of a Bodhisattva or their powers. (im pretty sure most of you know what an actual Bodhisattva is)

Santi253 wrote:The Thai government is corrupt, and it persecutes the Dhammakaya movement due to an irrational fear that it poses a threat to the state. This persecution has nothing to do with whether the Dhammakaya movement is a good thing or not. Ho hum. Now pass the butter.

Santi253 wrote:The Thai government is corrupt, and it persecutes the Dhammakaya movement due to an irrational fear that it poses a threat to the state. This persecution has nothing to do with whether the Dhammakaya movement is a good thing or not. Ho hum. Now pass the butter.

I've never seen any actual evidence to contradict the above.

Well to be fair its actually hard to provide solid evidence either way on whether or not the Thai Gov is persecuting WPD, unless there was some recording of them saying something. There is a bunch of circumstantial evidence that they are tho, such as the 300 random and unrelated charges, the fact that the current gov is a dictatorship with an atrocoius human rights record and a history of getting rid of political opponents on trumped up charges, and the fact that Thai Dictator has a clear interest in controlling the Sangha. Such taking control of the National office of Buddhism and basically hand-picking the Supreme Patriarch. It would be just as hard prove they aren't of course, unless some1 offers a good non-persecution reason to several of the factors mentioned above and throughout this thread.

As for the 2nd part, id like to point out this thread is on WPD. not the Dhammakaya movement which started 50 years b4 the WPD even existed. If you'd like to learn more about the Dhammakaya movement Dhammafriend did some hard work and has a neat resource thread on it.