If it was about security, the solution would be obvious. The first time Safari launches as a new install or upgrade, it would load in a web page which would check the version of Flash installed. If it was installed, but lower than the most recent version it would alert you to this. Even I could write the code for this.

Furthermore, Apple could include Flash in the Software Update making sure users are notified when new versions of Flash are released.

Instead, Apple is insuring that users get the most recent version of Flash when they first install by having them manually do so, and then not putting anything in place to make sure they update Flash when they should.

Apple may justifiably hate Flash. I hate it too, but this move doesn't help anyone who would choose to have Flash on their computer, and creates confusion along with a false sense of security.

If it was about security, the solution would be obvious. The first time Safari launches as a new install or upgrade, it would load in a web page which would check the version of Flash installed. If it was installed, but lower than the most recent version it would alert you to this. Even I could write the code for this.

Furthermore, Apple could include Flash in the Software Update making sure users are notified when new versions of Flash are released.

Instead, Apple is insuring that users get the most recent version of Flash when they first install by having them manually do so, and then not putting anything in place to make sure they update Flash when they should.

Apple may justifiably hate Flash. I hate it too, but this move doesn't help anyone who would choose to have Flash on their computer, and creates confusion along with a false sense of security.

Couldn't have put it better! :-) At least come out and say it for what it is.....they want users to NOT install Flash..... I don't care one way or the other but just be genuine about it....
If security was the driving force then close the operating system and not allow ALL third party software! How does Apple know if you will keep it updated? What if you install software and then the next week there is a known exploit for that software? in the best interest of the customer Apple should not let you install anything! They have no way to know if you will keep it updated! They have to protect you from yourself.....

Tallest Skil:

"Eventually Google will have their Afghanistan with Oracle and collapse" "The future is Apple, Google, and a third company that hasn't yet been created."

Internet Explorer needs a different version of Flash than the Firefox/Chrome version, to account for ActiveX. That said, I recommend installing Chrome instead of Firefox. Chrome now includes built-in Flash and PDF viewing, with no additional downloads required. I'd recommend the browser for reasons other than Flash and PDF integration, but that's another story....

I've used Chrome on OSX since it was released, I was referring to my Windows days 2 or so years ago, no worries.

"For its part, Adobe fired back and said that any crashes of Flash in Mac OS X are not related to its software, but are instead the fault of Apple's operating system."

That is such a load of crap. I have a relative who works at Adobe on desktop Flash player. This relative doesn't have a very high opinion of Flash player's stability on OS X. The recommendation I got was that you run nothing else on that browser, or at least nothing else that you care about keeping, if you plan on playing any Flash content on OS X.

So whose fault was the Intel Pentium "divide by zero" bug? Intel's fault for a hardware design flaw? Or the software developers fault for not working around it? Maybe Intel should have told the developers "Just don't divide by zero".

If it was about security, the solution would be obvious. The first time Safari launches as a new install or upgrade, it would load in a web page which would check the version of Flash installed. If it was installed, but lower than the most recent version it would alert you to this. Even I could write the code for this.

Furthermore, Apple could include Flash in the Software Update making sure users are notified when new versions of Flash are released.

Instead, Apple is insuring that users get the most recent version of Flash when they first install by having them manually do so, and then not putting anything in place to make sure they update Flash when they should.

Apple may justifiably hate Flash. I hate it too, but this move doesn't help anyone who would choose to have Flash on their computer, and creates confusion along with a false sense of security.

Yeah, right. And they could do that with every other "essential" POS third party software and plugin too, right?
Your notion is ridiculous!

Consider the public uproar in the past when Apple shipped a problematic version of Flash whe an update was already available.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tods

Oh, come on. I'm no fan of Flash but the quote from the Apple apparatchik is plain old spin. With that reasoning, why include QuickTime with the MacBook Air? If you really want QuickTime support, you can download the latest version yourself.

Never heard of software update on the Mac? Your point is silly because Apple has a facility to keep you updated as it is.

Quote:

Apple is just as capable of mouthing B.S. as is Microsoft or Google.

Actually in the case of Flash and Java their moves make a lot of sense. Only people who really need and want the software will install them. It eliminates one more thing that Apple will need to support pushing that back upon the code owners.

Interestingly by use of Flash and Java is split, I hate Flash so much that I only use it in extreme cases. On the otherhand I have more than a couple of Java based programs installed that I use on a regular basis. In either case I agree with Apple though, distribution of this software shouldn't be something Apple needs to worry about.

AGREED! If that is their logic then why install any software? You have to "update" just about everything after a fresh install of Snow Leopard....this is just really lame Apple....

The difference is that Software Update will find any security updates for Apple software (the OS, Quicktime, Safari, etc.) but it does not find any updates for non-Apple software. Apple has no mechanism to update third-party software (except for open-source UNIX stuff which gets rolled into OS updates but also in a non-perfect manner, ie, not always in a timely manner, not least because it is tough for Apple to decide whether it update the shipped version which people might rely on).

The Mac AppStore will offer a mechanism for security updates of third-party apps (but I am somewhat doubtful that plugins of any sort will be included, you'd rather have something like in-app purchasing for things like Safari extentions).

Nope it isn't from Apples view, rather it is about getting the most recent version of Flash. However since every release of Flash has addressed security issue you can't deny that security is in part a motivator. After all why ship a known security risk with your OS?

Quote:

If it was about security, the solution would be obvious. The first time Safari launches as a new install or upgrade, it would load in a web page which would check the version of Flash installed. If it was installed, but lower than the most recent version it would alert you to this. Even I could write the code for this.

If this were the country, daddy would be taking you out to the wood shed for a whipping about now. Seriously this demonstrates a severe misunderstanding of the ways of software. Apple couldn't possibly program Safari to check up on every single plug in that could possibly run on Safari so why do it for anyone.

Your statement just demonstrates a poor understanding of responsibility and feasability in the software world.

Quote:

Furthermore, Apple could include Flash in the Software Update making sure users are notified when new versions of Flash are released.

Software update is for things Apple supports and obviously they want to reduce supporting third party software directly. On the otherhand this is one of the reasons I support the Mac App Store so much. With the same update mechanisms as iPhone app store we always have quick and clean access to software updates.

Quote:

Instead, Apple is insuring that users get the most recent version of Flash when they first install by having them manually do so, and then not putting anything in place to make sure they update Flash when they should.

Whos responsibility is it to update Flash for the Mac?

Quote:

Apple may justifiably hate Flash. I hate it too, but this move doesn't help anyone who would choose to have Flash on their computer, and creates confusion along with a false sense of security.

BS! Really what does Safari do now when it finds that a plugin is missing? Further why should Flash be a separate case here when many plugins are far better but yet don't get special consideration from Apple? All this is is Apple pushing responsibility for Flash back onto Adobe where it should be.

Really there is nothing to get excited about or blow out of proportion here. Apple is simply correcting a mistake they made in the past which was considering Flash to be a special case. Instead it is treated like any other plugin. So again what is the big deal here?

If it was about security, the solution would be obvious. The first time Safari launches as a new install or upgrade, it would load in a web page which would check the version of Flash installed. If it was installed, but lower than the most recent version it would alert you to this. Even I could write the code for this.

Furthermore, Apple could include Flash in the Software Update making sure users are notified when new versions of Flash are released.

Of course they could do it but Flash would be the only third-party software getting that special treatment. No third-party software gets updated by the OS at the moment.

I love Apple products but their business tactics rival that of North Korean politics. Why not just come out and say that you want Adobe to go away? It's not even a rational fear because Adobe is not a direct competitor. Instead is one of Steve's petty peeves that has nothing to do with sound judgement. Apple should realize that if the great Steverino dies, it's over. There 's no Kim Yong Un for them ready to take the reigns. Any dictatorship that fosters a cult of personality like the Church of Jobs is doomed to fail. I really hope that doesn't happen because as long as I can jailbreak I will prefer any Apple product over the competition (except Apple TV )

1) Its so odd that the posters that hate Apple having any control or success are now the ones that think it should be Apples responsibility to inform you that Flash needs to be updated.

2) Im always bemused by the phrase would that be so hard when the objection obviously isnt an issue of difficulty, but of other considerations. Why doesnt Adobe include ClickToFlash with Flash? Would that be so hard?

3) Why not come at this simple issue objectively? Would that be so hard?

nice explanation... people here are trying there best to explain why flash should be pre-installed on mac and why it should not be pre-installed on mac... this is the most simple explanation i got it... i wish more people think here in this way...
but hey then which funny things i can read if the forums are emtpy here?

Amazing amount of unjustified vitriol. Last I check Flash does not auto update on the Mac. You actually have to go download it from Adobe.

Do you use a Mac? Do you know how Flash updating works? I'm confused at your sort of reply..

I do have a Mac I am writing this on my MBP..thank you. So what about all the other software that you can load? How does this get updated? exactly!! It gets updated through the vendor...exactly how Flash should be done....... But Apple's agenda is to eliminate Flash altogether....we all know this. So why hide behind it being a security flaw in Flash? The logic doesn't hold true. If they are worried about Flash being a 3rd party software and it not getting updates...then what about ALL other software that you and I install? Why are they not worried about everything else? Because that doesn't fit Apple's agenda...but eliminating or killing flash is their agenda......I don't care one way or the other but just come out and say it...don't make excuses......

Tallest Skil:

"Eventually Google will have their Afghanistan with Oracle and collapse" "The future is Apple, Google, and a third company that hasn't yet been created."

[QUOTE=several people wrote something similar] Apple couldn't do this and if they did they'd be giving preferential treatment to one plug-in[QUOTE]

Uh...did any of you happen to notice that Apple has been bundling Flash with Safari since 2003? How is 7 years of doing this not giving special treatment to one plug-in to begin with?

Not only that, but Apple does provide Software Update to 3rd parties, specifically major print vendors. It's the same thing here, only Flash is the only major plug-in...by far.

Funny how this seems so onerous for Apple, but yet a non-profit was able to pull this off with Firefox.

Again, this isn't about security, if it was, it would be trivial to code a solution that would improve security far better than what Apple decided to do.

And as has been suggested that Flash in of itself is a security risk, then Apple could still have the auto-install and update, but still give users the option. Funny they went straight from a no-choice bundling (which could be removed after the install, but nobody did) to this new method.

When developing software, Adobe, always remember that bugs are not the fault of the operating system you are developing on. If your software crashes, it is your responsibility to fix it. You don't send an email to the operating system maker and ask them to change the OS to work better with your software. This stuff is Development 101. You don't release it until it works.

Couldn't have put it better! :-) At least come out and say it for what it is.....they want users to NOT install Flash..... I don't care one way or the other but just be genuine about it....
If security was the driving force then close the operating system and not allow ALL third party software! How does Apple know if you will keep it updated? What if you install software and then the next week there is a known exploit for that software? in the best interest of the customer Apple should not let you install anything! They have no way to know if you will keep it updated! They have to protect you from yourself.....

Well to be fair, the windows version of flash does have a software updater which notifies you
when there's an update. So it might not be entirely apple's fault

If it was about security, the solution would be obvious. The first time Safari launches as a new install or upgrade, it would load in a web page which would check the version of Flash installed. If it was installed, but lower than the most recent version it would alert you to this. Even I could write the code for this.

Furthermore, Apple could include Flash in the Software Update making sure users are notified when new versions of Flash are released.

I'm sure there are other unsaid reasons, but this reason does have some validity too.

Please explain why Apple should be expected to make an update notification system for a company that failed to make their own? Adobe is a grown-up company, expecting Apple to dote on Adobe like an overgrown infant like that has to be an insult against Adobe.

I would say the reason why it's a problem now and not back in 2003 or whenever is Flash didn't have known critical security bugs until somewhat recently.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Haggar

So whose fault was the Intel Pentium "divide by zero" bug? Intel's fault for a hardware design flaw? Or the software developers fault for not working around it? Maybe Intel should have told the developers "Just don't divide by zero".

What divide by zero bug? There's an FDIV bug but that's not divide by zero. Those chips were later recalled too.

If you feel so strongly about Apple not shipping Flash with new Macs, and just don't want the hassle of making a few clicks in Adobe's website to install Flash yourself then go get a Windows PC that comes with Flash preinstalled.

+1

Quote:

Originally Posted by MJ1970

Yes. This is correct. Apple is spinning it very cleverly. But they are trowing up a barrier to use/adoption for Flash. They are pulling out the stops to try and wound or even kill off Flash. Good for them.

I think it's spun cleverly, Apple is clever. They are not perfect, they are not the Messiah of the Corporate World that speaks no wrong and does no evil. It could appear vindictive but we won't know the full reasons.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Wurm5150

How much are you selling your Macs for? What are they? If your selling it at a good deal I'm sure some of the people here would be interested in taking it off your hands and end whatever anger or indifference you have with Apple.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tods

Apple can do whatever they want. I'm not arguing that they should be forced to bundle Flash, or to unbundle QuickTime. But for them to claim that leaving Flash out of a standard installation actually facilitates users getting the latest version is a lame effort at spin. Apple doesn't want to support Flash for competitive reasons -- which is fine with me, but I'd prefer to hear the truth instead of some bizarre rationalization.

Like I said, Apple ain't perfect. It is a company run by humans, not angels. Last time I checked. It would be nice to hear the real truth, but sometimes, people don't *want* to hear the truth.

I would say a large chunk of iPhone, iPad and Mac purchases are not really even rational decisions. It's only after they've got it that if, they bother to learn a little, the users will start to realise the gem in their hands, but also the limitations of what they bought.

BTW, remember, Steve is getting older so this could lead to more eccentricities down the line. But nothing alarming so far, IMHO.

Adobe could be sharing in APPLE'S rise to the top . APPLE begged adode over the yrs to upgrade faster etc etc . The wintel world was a bigger fish i guess .

Adobe saw the Mac designer market drying up somewhat through the last 10 years compared to how many use PCs, and Adobe needed to grow their market so they've invested in a whole bunch of stuff like PDF workflows and what not to go big into the corporate IT world.

That's left them up the Mobile creek without a paddle. They still have that big boat in the Corporate Sea though.

Adobe saw the Mac designer market drying up somewhat through the last 10 years compared to how many use PCs, and Adobe needed to grow their market so they've invested in a whole bunch of stuff like PDF workflows and what not to go big into the corporate IT world.

That's left them up the Mobile creek without a paddle. They still have that big boat in the Corporate Sea though.

Adobe's ultra slow upgrade system had a lot to do with apple slow demise . Yes i agree with your post .Yet adobe walks around like them and apple was blood brothers back in the mac OS8.8 DAYS .

I worked in a printing shop and we did 8 yr slow burn waiting on adobe .And when Adobe bought and killed GO LIVE . The final straw was laid .

I'm sure there are other unsaid reasons, but this reason does have some validity too.

Please explain why Apple should be expected to make an update notification system for a company that failed to make their own? Adobe is a grown-up company, expecting Apple to dote on Adobe like an overgrown infant like that has to be an insult against Adobe.

I would say the reason why it's a problem now and not back in 2003 or whenever is Flash didn't have known critical security bugs until somewhat recently.

I don't think it has any validity whatsoever. Adobe has always had an update mechanism for Flash. The non-profit Mozilla.org has always used this mechanism for Firefox. In fact, Firefox checks all plug-ins for being up to date. Other browsers besides Safari have done this from the beginning as well.

The problem is that there's no way for a plug-in by itself to take control of the OS and check for an update and install. That's the constraint on plug-ins that Apple placed in Safari. A plug-in can be checked for being up to date by either pinging the server through Software Update or having the browser visit a page that runs a script checking the version number that's installed. It's very simple code and low impact. It makes far more sense for SU or Safari to do this than having every plug-in developer create their own update mechanisms, not that they could with Safari.

In short, Adobe provided the update mechanism on their end, and other browser developers from the beginning implemented this, except for Apple.

And now, Apple isn't doing anything to improve security, which is why I'm saying there's no validity to this. What Apple is doing is making sure people get the right version of Flash when they install, but then doing nothing to check to make sure they keep up to date. How is that more secure than all the other browsers that do check to see if they're up to date?

While Flash may have had an increase in security bugs recently, it's always had a variety of other issues that were fixed with updates. Most often these updates occurred with new versions of Safari being installed or web developers doing the version check, but the version frequency has actually tapered off since 2003.

But again, if this was about security, Apple could very easily implement update checking for Flash, (and other plug-ins), and the bottom line is that mechanism would offer the best security for Mac users as well as the best user experience.

Even if Apple was to have the courage to say, "We just hate Flash and will do anything to destroy it", that would be perfectly fine...no complaint from me, but if Apple wants to improve security, they still should do update checking.

And remember, this comes from someone who hates Flash and wants to see it die. However, since it's still out there and being used, Apple should look at what's in the best interest of its users as opposed to battling over this, and not being honest about their actions.

If it was about security, the solution would be obvious. The first time Safari launches as a new install or upgrade, it would load in a web page which would check the version of Flash installed. If it was installed, but lower than the most recent version it would alert you to this. Even I could write the code for this.

Furthermore, Apple could include Flash in the Software Update making sure users are notified when new versions of Flash are released.

Instead, Apple is insuring that users get the most recent version of Flash when they first install by having them manually do so, and then not putting anything in place to make sure they update Flash when they should.

Apple may justifiably hate Flash. I hate it too, but this move doesn't help anyone who would choose to have Flash on their computer, and creates confusion along with a false sense of security.

Only someone manifestly myopic would make a statement that it is all about security - and Apple never made that statement now did they?

Given that Apple appears to be driving some level of convergence between (first the two sets of iOS) MacOS and iOS, why not clean house? Why continue to prop up a development house that routinely lags in development and update of the software that is ported to your platform? That instead of stepping up and delivering a Flash mobile that truly works well on mobile devices - tosses off one that takes a crap on all but the latest hardware and OS - regardless of platform? Or that when challenged to prove Apple's decision wrong in finally giving up on waiting for them to move into the 21st century with Flash, instead filed a complaint with the FTC alleging anti-competitive behavior?

Why continue to throw pearls before swine? Few PCs comes installed with Flash - you have to go grab the plugin. Now you have to do the same with the MacOS, why is this such an issue for so many commenters here? Or is the cult of personality such a deadly attraction for you that pure business motives are not enough. That pragmatic decision-making needs to be dressed in a furious Steve Jobs tossing chairs across the room a la Steve Balmer, or leading a funeral procession across the campus announcing the death of Flash? IF Flash was a keystone product - Adobe would have been on top of this from the start. They weren't and it was only AFTER they realized that they could lose revenue by not moving Flash ahead that they panicked - by then Apple had written them off.

It is not Apple's job to support Adobe if Adobe doesn't even do it themselves, and it makes no business sense to continue to have to clean-up and wipe the chin of Adobe, when they are perfectly capable of taking care of themselves if they choose to do so.

Why try to dress this up in stupid emotional crap when it stands fine on simple business logic - back to school for quite a few of you: Business 101.

Ed Ryu - post a link when you put your Mac kit up on eBay. Better you relieve yourself of the horror of Mac ownership than to continue to be so conflicted.

I don't think it has any validity whatsoever. Adobe has always had an update mechanism for Flash. The non-profit Mozilla.org has always used this mechanism for Firefox. In fact, Firefox checks all plug-ins for being up to date. Other browsers besides Safari have done this from the beginning as well.

In short, Adobe provided the update mechanism on their end, and other browser developers from the beginning implemented this, except for Apple.

Firefox's system is very limited, it only bothers to check when Firefox is updated. What other browsers have implemented this?

I'm not convinced that a plug-in can't notify users of updates in the windows they're given. In the past, I've seen Flash tell me that I need a new version because a site uses features not implemented in the installed version. Also, Flash is a fairly comprehensive programming environment to itself, how Flash player can't check a server once a week to notify the user if Adobe so chooses, I don't know.

Firefox's system is very limited, it only bothers to check when Firefox is updated. What other browsers have implemented this?

I'm not convinced that a plug-in can't notify users of updates in the windows they're given. In the past, I've seen Flash tell me that I need a new version because a site uses features not implemented in the installed version. Also, Flash is a fairly comprehensive programming environment to itself, how Flash player can't check a server once a week to notify the user if Adobe so chooses, I don't know.

Yeah, well even if you install Adobe Air it doesn't quite check for updates automatically, and Air operates outside of the browser plugin sandbox. A little cooperation between Apple and Adobe could see Flash easily checking itself that it was up to date. At this stage of the game though, I expect just nasty comments from Adobe in a blog or something. ...I'm not saying Apple is totally beyond reproach, but just hoping the relationship doesn't just deteriorate further.

Apple has issued an official comment on the lack of preinstalled Adobe Flash on the newly released MacBook Air and all future Macs, saying the change was done to ensure that users always have the latest version of Flash by downloading directly from Adobe.

Earlier this week, when it was discovered the new MacBook Air models ship without Flash installed, some assumed the change was made because of the ongoing rivalry between Adobe and Apple. But Apple spokesman Bill Evans gave Engadget an official comment on Friday saying otherwise.

"We're happy to continue to support Flash on the Mac, and the best way for users to always have the most up to date and secure version is to download it directly from Adobe," Evans reportedly said.

He also went on to say that all Macs in the future will not have Adobe Flash preinstalled, though it was said that some hardware already in the channels may come with Flash.

Apple and Adobe have been at odds in 2010, in a feud that gained considerable steam after Apple Chief Executive Steve Jobs published an open letter criticizing Flash as old technology that is unfit for the modern era of mobile computers. Apple does not allow Flash onto its iOS-powered devices, including the iPhone and iPad.

Jobs also revealed that Flash is the number one reason for crashes on the Mac platform. For its part, Adobe fired back and said that any crashes of Flash in Mac OS X are not related to its software, but are instead the fault of Apple's operating system.

Jobs is correct I downloaded the new adobe flash app and it crashed 3x already with the Mozilla Firefox download included. Flash is not that great.

...someone manifestly myopic
...
why not clean house? Why continue to prop up a development house ...

...tosses off one that takes a crap on all ...

Why continue to throw pearls before swine? ...

... the cult of personality such a deadly attraction ...

... a furious Steve Jobs tossing chairs across the room ...

...leading a funeral procession across the campus ...

...they panicked...

...Adobe doesn't even do it themselves, and it makes no business sense to continue to have to clean-up and wipe the chin of Adobe, when they are perfectly capable of taking care of themselves if they choose to do so.

... dress this up in stupid emotional crap ...

...relieve yourself of the horror of Mac ownership ...

You write well. Please keep posting this sort of rant. It has great entertainment value.

Re: Pixelmator. Good catch. Not QUITE the same thing, since the size of the downloads are quite different, but still something I'll bet was discussed before the presentation was finalized. In fact, I'm sure every single program on those screens was discussed before the presentation was finalized.

Oh, I don't think it was malicious as such, at this stage it's not entirely clear how such a huge program, usually sold as a suite of gigabytes and gigabytes of files and templates etc., would be delivered through the Mac app store.

Also, Apple getting 30% of Adobe sales revenue through this channel, would be something quite overwhelming for Adobe at this point in the game.

Re: Pixelmator. Good catch. Not QUITE the same thing, since the size of the downloads are quite different, but still something I'll bet was discussed before the presentation was finalized. In fact, I'm sure every single program on those screens was discussed before the presentation was finalized.

I think they planned to use dummy apps, as I can see in the presentation, maybe at the last minute they had some select devs on board.