Crisis time for Microsoft

I don't feel safe with the Smart Cover on my ipad propping it up vertically. It's a bit too vertical for my taste. It feels like it is always moments from falling over forward.

Honestly, I've never felt that, except on bumpy trains. I just stood it up and tried to poke it over, it needs a fair bit of effort to push it over. I can appreciate the feeling that it's too vertical from an ability to see viewpoint, unless you're close to level with it or a few feet away (maybe 3-4), you need to be pretty level with it to see the screen well.

Same here. And not sure why Surface would be any more kid-proof.

It leans back further and has a wider, stronger base.

Actually, I'm not even sure how useful the ipad is when standing up like that since it is so close to vertical. Again, I just don't use it like that.

Because unlike the cover, the build in kickstand is always with you. The challenge of course would be to make it strong while not adding too much weight, when closed you shouldn't feel it with your hands. If such thing can be possible why would anyone be against it? Or is it because it is a bad idea until Apple does it?

Good that Shape's little ones appreciate geometry! I doubt it makes much difference, but await the YouTube demos ...

I'm not really sure what you're getting at. The Surface is tilted back significantly further and IIRC it's a little lower than the iPad in landscape mode. Those two things would make it harder to accidentally tip over. The iPad won't really tip over on its own, but I just went and put it into vertical mode at my table and it could do with leaning back a little bit further in that mode. I can definitely appreciate why MS chose that angle, as using the Surface at a table with the type cover would work pretty well at around 22 degrees.

They already have retina displays and the devices are already really really thin. I mean how much is a kickstand going to add to the size really.

Somewhere between 10-15% of the thickness, judging from that picture. It's also something that can break off, which is another thing that Apple really isn't keen on these days.

Edit: regarding really thin, the large iPad is already considered too thick and heavy by many people and adding a kickstand to something like the iPad mini would take it from 7.2 to probably 8 or more mm thick.

I don't think it is too thick. I actually think it is too thin. I double up the Smart Cover (iOS automatically capitalizes that. Really, Apple?) to add a bit of thickness to it when I hold it. Also to keep my hands away from the felt that protects the screen.

Because unlike the cover, the build in kickstand is always with you. The challenge of course would be to make it strong while not adding too much weight, when closed you shouldn't feel it with your hands. If such thing can be possible why would anyone be against it?

Because the thinner the device, the more the kickstands adds as a percentage of width.

Quote:

Or is it because it is a bad idea until Apple does it?

I'm trying to honestly engage you on this issue, but if you want to continue with that line, I can get snippy and petulant too if you like.

Because unlike the cover, the build in kickstand is always with you. The challenge of course would be to make it strong while not adding too much weight, when closed you shouldn't feel it with your hands. If such thing can be possible why would anyone be against it? Or is it because it is a bad idea until Apple does it?

Didn't say I was 'against it'' as one choice in the marketplace. Seems well-engineered, but note the angular aesthetic that solution relies on —which you feel with your hands. Your argument seems a bit patchy: if you want a cover and stand, then a piece of metal on the back loses the advantage. So it's an option, but not always the best option.

Good that Shape's little ones appreciate geometry! I doubt it makes much difference, but await the YouTube demos ...

I'm not really sure what you're getting at. The Surface is tilted back significantly further and IIRC it's a little lower than the iPad in landscape mode. Those two things would make it harder to accidentally tip over. The iPad won't really tip over on its own, but I just went and put it into vertical mode at my table and it could do with leaning back a little bit further in that mode. I can definitely appreciate why MS chose that angle, as using the Surface at a table with the type cover would work pretty well at around 22 degrees.

You're not looking forward to the toddler torture test videos? Dammit, I am.

I don't feel safe with the Smart Cover on my ipad propping it up vertically. It's a bit too vertical for my taste. It feels like it is always moments from falling over forward.

Honestly, I've never felt that, except on bumpy trains. I just stood it up and tried to poke it over, it needs a fair bit of effort to push it over. I can appreciate the feeling that it's too vertical from an ability to see viewpoint, unless you're close to level with it or a few feet away (maybe 3-4), you need to be pretty level with it to see the screen well.

Same here. And not sure why Surface would be any more kid-proof.

It leans back further and has a wider, stronger base.

Fair enough (same to El Cap's comment). We don't get to see Surface in shops here, so I don't have a tactile appreciation.

ShapeGSX wrote:

Actually, I'm not even sure how useful the ipad is when standing up like that since it is so close to vertical. Again, I just don't use it like that.

Works for me. Casting my mind back, I probably had to give my iPad a few test tilts to be sure the Smart Cover worked, but it's remarkably good imho (as are the magnets, btw).

It's very unlikely Apple will offer a kickstand on the iPad, their MO these days is retina displays and having as thin devices as possible. Anything that gets in the way of those has a pretty steep built-in penalty.

Their earlier prototypes actually already had a kickstand. They removed it when as the product was 'refined'.

The kickstand can help in presentations and viewing video, but without the keyboard it actually hurts when typing, it's basically useless to type on it in that mode. The Smart Cover's horizontal very low-angle mode however doesn't help as much with presentation, but it props it up enough so your neck isn't completely craned over it to view, but it's also not on such an extreme angle that it hurts onscreen typing, if anything it makes it easier.

The kickstands problem is really not that it exists, it's not that it just has one setting. If it had multiple angles it would be far more useful. Sinofsky should been less obsessed with the nice click sound and more focused on actual usability, even if it had an impact on rigidity.

Less concern with using it as a fucking skateboard and more about using it as a tablet.

Because unlike the cover, the build in kickstand is always with you. The challenge of course would be to make it strong while not adding too much weight, when closed you shouldn't feel it with your hands. If such thing can be possible why would anyone be against it? Or is it because it is a bad idea until Apple does it?

I think it is a bad idea because most people use tablets on their lap, not on a desk. The kickstand does not give you a stable base for using on your lap. Frankly it just shows that Microsoft really do not understand the tablet market at all.

Because unlike the cover, the build in kickstand is always with you. The challenge of course would be to make it strong while not adding too much weight, when closed you shouldn't feel it with your hands. If such thing can be possible why would anyone be against it? Or is it because it is a bad idea until Apple does it?

I think it is a bad idea because most people use tablets on their lap, not on a desk. The kickstand does not give you a stable base for using on your lap. Frankly it just shows that Microsoft really do not understand the tablet market at all.

Nobody uses a stand with their iPad on their lap, either. You just use it flat. I suspect people just use the Surface flat when they use it on their lap, too.

But there is always the option to stand it up on a table or desk. I used my iPad for an hour at my table today.

I don't think the kickstand is really that relevant, the kickstand along with the touch cover in surface were widely touted by MS but haven't been the killer features needed to sell devices.

MS should not have put a kickstand in the Surface devices over mobile broadband. If the surface device are supposed to the be the enterprise iPad alternative and a hybrid device for it to not have mobile broadband included tells me that MS is out of touch with modern tablet users.

I am not against MS including the kickstand but I think MS got its priorities wrong when it comes to features that are important for a tablet to have.

The overall problem with Windows Tablets and the Surface devices is that MS in some ways still have not given up on the failed slates and windows tablets in the past. MS didn't its lesson after failing with tablets due to them being overpriced and pushing gimmicks like the stylus, which MS is still pushing today in the Surface pro.

MS didn't its lesson after failing with tablets due to them being overpriced and pushing gimmicks like the stylus, which MS is still pushing today in the Surface pro.

To their credit, restricting it to a smallish subset of devices means that people won't be able to integrate it into the UI except when it really makes sense to (e.g. handwriting recognition or drawing). IMO this is an acceptable, if mostly uninteresting, use of a stylus.

Because unlike the cover, the build in kickstand is always with you. The challenge of course would be to make it strong while not adding too much weight, when closed you shouldn't feel it with your hands. If such thing can be possible why would anyone be against it? Or is it because it is a bad idea until Apple does it?

I think it is a bad idea because most people use tablets on their lap, not on a desk. The kickstand does not give you a stable base for using on your lap. Frankly it just shows that Microsoft really do not understand the tablet market at all.

Nobody uses a stand with their iPad on their lap, either. You just use it flat. I suspect people just use the Surface flat when they use it on their lap, too.

But there is always the option to stand it up on a table or desk. I used my iPad for an hour at my table today.

It has never been removed from it's case and I use it my lap, with a flat base all the time, it gives me two hands to type or whatever. The fact that there have been thousands of these on the market since the very first iPad would point to the fact that I am not the one one that use them and in fact I can only think of one person I know with an iPad that doesn't use such a case.

MS didn't its lesson after failing with tablets due to them being overpriced and pushing gimmicks like the stylus, which MS is still pushing today in the Surface pro.

To their credit, restricting it to a smallish subset of devices means that people won't be able to integrate it into the UI except when it really makes sense to (e.g. handwriting recognition or drawing). IMO this is an acceptable, if mostly uninteresting, use of a stylus.

I disagree, from the start the Surface Pro was expected to be the more popular device, and the Surface devices are supposed to be MS ideal vision of a windows device. Including a stylus with one is not MS restricting it to a smallish subset as you seem to think, it is MS sending a message to OEMs and consumers to use a stylus just like it did with the slates in the past.

I am not nor did not say that use of a stylus is unacceptable, but again it comes down to priorities and I think MS should have instead made a push for something more useful or new instead of recycling an old idea that never really generated alot of interest. MS would be better off ditching the stylus and including a touch cover, which people are more interested in than a stylus and would better justify the cost of the device than the stylus has.

I don't think the kickstand is really that relevant, the kickstand along with the touch cover in surface were widely touted by MS but haven't been the killer features needed to sell devices.

This is the problem with the kickstand. It's a nice to have, but isn't really a killer feature, primarily because not many would have an issue (especially after being primed by the iPad for the past 3 years) buying an accessory to replicate that functionality, if they need it.

I think MS has the same problem with its touch/type covers, which their marketing does seem to be touting as a selling point (at least the Surface commercial with the dancing people and surfaces, where the main thing that stands out to me is the clicking noise of the cover attaching to the device). Especially since you have products like this Logitech cover (http://www.logitech.com/en-us/product/u ... ?crid=1325), which provide you with the same functionality (for less) with an iPad.

MS didn't its lesson after failing with tablets due to them being overpriced and pushing gimmicks like the stylus, which MS is still pushing today in the Surface pro.

There is a big difference between old tablets and surface pro when it comes to the stylus. In a XP tablet the stylus was a must, it was how you interacted with the UI.With 8 the stylus is not a necessity, you can interact with fingers. The stylus is just another feature for whoever wants to draw diagrams and take notes in class or whatever, things you can't do with the finger. 8 unlike past windows doesn't rely on the stylus to be usable unless you want to use the desktop version of AutoCad with touch but why would you want to do that anyway.

No doubt they will iterate the Surface. Just by adopting Haswell, they'll gain a big jump in battery life.

But Christmas season isn't over. If sales don't meet their expectations, they'll figure things out. Perhaps there won't be quite the same level of anticipation and coverage for Surface 2 devices though.

No doubt they will iterate the Surface. Just by adopting Haswell, they'll gain a big jump in battery life.

But Christmas season isn't over. If sales don't meet their expectations, they'll figure things out. Perhaps there won't be quite the same level of anticipation and coverage for Surface 2 devices though.

That's the question. Did Microsoft just Zune themselves?

I disagree with a bunch of people here; I think the kickstand + keyboard cover is the smartest thing about the Surface. Without the kickstand, the keyboard cover doesn't work; and the way the keyboard cover works transitioning from tablet to notebook(ish) computer is impressive, and graceful. (The two type/touch cover versions, though, point to a problem: your Surface keyboard cover can either look great or work great, and the one that looks great has a fairly steep initial learning curve: it does *not* demo well.) The problem is that RT is botched and underbaked, and the Intel x86 chipset needs at least another year before the W8/Surface vision is realized.

No doubt they will iterate the Surface. Just by adopting Haswell, they'll gain a big jump in battery life.

But Christmas season isn't over. If sales don't meet their expectations, they'll figure things out. Perhaps there won't be quite the same level of anticipation and coverage for Surface 2 devices though.

That's the question. Did Microsoft just Zune themselves?

I disagree with a bunch of people here; I think the kickstand + keyboard cover is the smartest thing about the Surface. Without the kickstand, the keyboard cover doesn't work; and the way the keyboard cover works transitioning from tablet to notebook(ish) computer is impressive, and graceful. (The two type/touch cover versions, though, point to a problem: your Surface keyboard cover can either look great or work great, and the one that looks great has a fairly steep initial learning curve: it does *not* demo well.) The problem is that RT is botched and underbaked, and the Intel x86 chipset needs at least another year before the W8/Surface vision is realized.

I only take issue with your description of the utility of the touch cover. By the vast majority of accounts, the touch cover works surprisingly well.

I only take issue with your description of the utility of the touch cover. By the vast majority of accounts, the touch cover works surprisingly well.

I've heard, and believe it, but well is relative (it depends how important tactile feedback is for your keyboard, which the type cover delivers). IOW, the touch cover looks great and works well (eventually), the type cover works great, and looks OK. And there's still that initial learning curve for the touch cover, that I experienced full-on when I got my hands on a Surface a few weeks ago. It was frustrating, and did not make for a good first impression. I'll have to try it again at some point.

No doubt they will iterate the Surface. Just by adopting Haswell, they'll gain a big jump in battery life.

But Christmas season isn't over. If sales don't meet their expectations, they'll figure things out. Perhaps there won't be quite the same level of anticipation and coverage for Surface 2 devices though.

That's the question. Did Microsoft just Zune themselves?

I disagree with a bunch of people here; I think the kickstand + keyboard cover is the smartest thing about the Surface. Without the kickstand, the keyboard cover doesn't work; and the way the keyboard cover works transitioning from tablet to notebook(ish) computer is impressive, and graceful. (The two type/touch cover versions, though, point to a problem: your Surface keyboard cover can either look great or work great, and the one that looks great has a fairly steep initial learning curve: it does *not* demo well.) The problem is that RT is botched and underbaked, and the Intel x86 chipset needs at least another year before the W8/Surface vision is realized.

But what does the touch cover provide which makes the Surface far more compelling than an iPad, when I can buy a Logitech accessory for the iPad which does the same thing?

Additionally, the touch cover isn't even included with the Surface, and the Logitech accessory is cheaper than the MS covers.

I am not denying the utility of the touch/type covers. I am questioning how useful they are for moving units of the Surface.

No doubt they will iterate the Surface. Just by adopting Haswell, they'll gain a big jump in battery life.

But Christmas season isn't over. If sales don't meet their expectations, they'll figure things out. Perhaps there won't be quite the same level of anticipation and coverage for Surface 2 devices though.

That's the question. Did Microsoft just Zune themselves?

I disagree with a bunch of people here; I think the kickstand + keyboard cover is the smartest thing about the Surface. Without the kickstand, the keyboard cover doesn't work; and the way the keyboard cover works transitioning from tablet to notebook(ish) computer is impressive, and graceful. (The two type/touch cover versions, though, point to a problem: your Surface keyboard cover can either look great or work great, and the one that looks great has a fairly steep initial learning curve: it does *not* demo well.) The problem is that RT is botched and underbaked, and the Intel x86 chipset needs at least another year before the W8/Surface vision is realized.

Even if you think the kickstand + cover is a killer feature, MS is still only selling the surface with half the experience.

Given how high profile the touch cover is it should be included with the device, or at the very least MS should have given it to early adopters of Surface for buying a tablet to run IE and a beta of Office, and preorders for Surface Pro to justify the price.

Including a stylus over the touch cover for the surface pro makes no sense to me when MS has been promoting the touch covers as the big and important feature.

No doubt they will iterate the Surface. Just by adopting Haswell, they'll gain a big jump in battery life.

But Christmas season isn't over. If sales don't meet their expectations, they'll figure things out. Perhaps there won't be quite the same level of anticipation and coverage for Surface 2 devices though.

The problem is that Microsoft can't iterate in a vacuum. The A7 and A7X will come out with 2x (or whatever) performance increases, Apple will also adopt Haswell, and Intel will release Saltwell (or whatever the next Atom SoC is) to Motorola et al.

Wasn't Surface supposed to be a design reference/warning shot to OEMS, purposely limited in distribution so as not to anger hardware partners? If so, then why is Microsoft suddenly expanding retail distribution?

Is it because sales have been so poor OEMs no longer fear Surface as a competing product, so it's okay to let a few more collect dust in Best Buy next to the BlackBerry PlayBook? Or is it because Microsoft now believes OEMs have failed to create appealing products and has decided to become a fully competitive hardware maker (at least for tablets)? That would fit in with the larger "blame the hardware makers" meme on why Windows 8 sales are not meeting projections. Or, did Microsoft plan to stab compete with its hardware partners all along in tablets? Or, and this is my choice, Microsoft is in complete disarray in its attempts to transition to a world in which laptops and desktops make up a minority of personal computing devices.

Wasn't Surface supposed to be a design reference/warning shot to OEMS, purposely limited in distribution so as not to anger hardware partners? If so, then why is Microsoft suddenly expanding retail distribution?

Well, exactly. It was both. Warning shot and an example of what design of a W8 device should be. Early warning now (seemingly) over—distribution gets expanded.

Not to say your feeling of disarray isn't off the mark, and everything is going according to plan. There is no grand plan; as far as I can tell, they're kind of making it up as they go along. And if the Surface isn't a success, Microsoft is going to be burning its bridges pretty quickly. Especially if/when Android finds its legs in the tablet space.

Wasn't Surface supposed to be a design reference/warning shot to OEMS, purposely limited in distribution so as not to anger hardware partners? If so, then why is Microsoft suddenly expanding retail distribution?

Well, exactly. It was both. Warning shot and an example of what design of a W8 device should be. Early warning now (seemingly) over—distribution gets expanded.

That was a pretty short warning, about six weeks since launch. Even going back to the June unveiling, I don't see how any hardware OEM that was stupid enough to take a leap of faith into a new product category without apps could have had a tablet ready by now.

So here's the thing. The rumor of Microsoft expanding into traditional retail channels comes from one of Paul Thurrots trusted and anonymous sources.

So cool, you can believe that.

Paul Thurrots trusted sources also say

"...news of Microsoft only selling $500,00 to 600,000 Surface RT tablets is "probably incorrect". Sources close to Microsoft's Surface RT sales numbers claim that the device is actually selling very well given a modest, Microsoft-limited distribution. "

So here's the thing. The rumor of Microsoft expanding into traditional retail channels comes from one of Paul Thurrots trusted and anonymous sources.

So cool, you can believe that.

Paul Thurrots trusted sources also say

"...news of Microsoft only selling $500,00 to 600,000 Surface RT tablets is "probably incorrect". Sources close to Microsoft's Surface RT sales numbers claim that the device is actually selling very well given a modest, Microsoft-limited distribution. "

So here's the thing. The rumor of Microsoft expanding into traditional retail channels comes from one of Paul Thurrots trusted and anonymous sources.

So cool, you can believe that.

Paul Thurrots trusted sources also say

"...news of Microsoft only selling $500,00 to 600,000 Surface RT tablets is "probably incorrect". Sources close to Microsoft's Surface RT sales numbers claim that the device is actually selling very well given a modest, Microsoft-limited distribution. "

So here's the thing. The rumor of Microsoft expanding into traditional retail channels comes from one of Paul Thurrots trusted and anonymous sources.

So cool, you can believe that.

Paul Thurrots trusted sources also say

"...news of Microsoft only selling $500,00 to 600,000 Surface RT tablets is "probably incorrect". Sources close to Microsoft's Surface RT sales numbers claim that the device is actually selling very well given a modest, Microsoft-limited distribution. "