You know, so many people are saying the warriors are good enough to make the playoffs, as in reach the number 8 spot. But if they are healthy, I can't help but think that they are even much better than that. By looking at the Bulls lineup, I cannot say they are discernibly better than the Warriors. 2 of their bench players are players that the Warriors didn't have room for. I think our front court beats the Bulls front court as Bogut when healthy matches Noah and Lee is apparently more productive than Boozer these days, dominated him last year. Our 2 and 3 match up real well and has more upside due to youth: Thompson, Rush and Barnes as opposed to Gibson, Hamilton, and Deng. Perhaps the Bulls have the defense down. And then there is one more factor, Derek Rose. But I would say the Warriors have the depth. I'm not saying they are better than the Bulls, but I just can't believe that they are discernibly worse (both starters and role players), especially how they beat them with ease last year.

Hmmm. You phrase Rose as "one factor", but he's an enormous piece of the equation.

Minus starting point guards? Sure. The Warriors are infinitely better than the Bulls; a superior front court, scorers from top to bottom, and the luxury of Jack as fill-in-point see to that. But Derek Rose makes any team he's on a threat to go to the Conference Finals. There's no stopping him when he's hot and even when he's at half his potential, he still leaves a footprint on the game. The Warriors have nobody in his league. I plan to update this list before the start of next season, but to illustrate the difference between Rose and our roster, consult my list of franchise playerdom:

Curry? Lee? Bogut? They're all good pieces; but there are 20ish guys in this league that are comparable to them (and 10-15 guys flat-out better than them). Rose has 4 or 5 peers that can help a team to the degree he does. Until the Warriors get a guy like that, I can't put them ahead of a team like the Bulls, the Lakers, the Heat, or any other team featuring a Type A franchise player.

can you explain to me how he is that good? Some say that when Ellis is at his best he has the same stats as Rose. Rose adds about 24 or 25 points a game, but is not stellar in assists. What am i missing?

Dude. Just watch Derrick Rose. He's a different animal than Monta Ellis. He's bigger, stronger, and JUST as fast if not faster than Ellis. Kinda upsets me because Ellis could've been Rose before that moped accident. After the accident he just didn't attack the basket the same. Ellis challenged Tony Parker in points in the paint just based on fast break points. And to me that's one of the biggest differences. Good players can get away working outside-inside, but the greatest players get the work done inside out.

Other things come into play too. Intensity, fearlessness, defense, free throw percentage and attempts, and oh yeah, that team is very stingy when it comes to giving up points. That, to me, is a recipe to win NBA championships.

The Ellis and Rose comparison is a prime example of how I find statistics to be misleading (or, to clarify, traditional statistics, like points and assists per game). Just because both players have the ball in their hands a lot and, thus, get a lot of points and assists, doesn't make their style of production equal.

On the surface, sure, Rose checks in with 6.9 APG on his career, Ellis with 4.5... But the true separation lies in assist-to-turnover numbers. Taking that into account, Ellis' 2.5 turnovers to 4.5 assists -versus Rose's 2.7 turnovers to 6.9 assists - looks a whole lot worse: 1.8 assists per turnover, compared to 2.6 for Rose.

Efficiency is also a pretty useful stat; moreso than overall-plus-minus, I think, because great players on losing teams can still get negative plus-minus ratings. In the PER battle, Rose champions Ellis again - 23.30 to 17.53 (last year only). In Warrior terms, a difference of almost 6 efficiency points is the exact split between Stephen Curry and Dorell Wright (yikes). Or, another example, Klay Thompson (15 PER) vs Mickael Gladness (9 PER). 6 efficency points is a world of a difference.

I agree with Blackfoot; without Rose, clearly, the Dubs are much better than Chicago... I just don't think so when both squads are fully healthy.

migya wrote:I still think Chicago will make the playoffs, probably as high as 5th and the Warriors will likely finish lower in the West overall. That's says alot.

I don't think that says much. east is a lot weaker. Chicago would struggle to make the playoffs in the west without rose. They might even struggle to make it in the east, they lost key partsOf their bench.

migya wrote:I still think Chicago will make the playoffs, probably as high as 5th and the Warriors will likely finish lower in the West overall. That's says alot.

I don't think that says much. east is a lot weaker. Chicago would struggle to make the playoffs in the west without rose. They might even struggle to make it in the east, they lost key partsOf their bench.

The only thing that makes Chicago likely to even miss the playoffs is how long Deng misses at the start of next season. That team is still very good and added Hinrich, Nate and one or two other pieces that cover some holes well enough. They'll make the playoffs, health permitting, and would say in the West as well. Don't see much better lineups than Deng, Boozer, Noah, Hamilton, Gibson. They have some nice role players also.

I buy into Chicago's system more than their players. Thibs has gotten that team to play at one the highest levels on defense. Don't know how much points they allow or any other stats, but that team is gritty as hell on defense. It might be a little tougher to keep up the defensive effort now that Asik is gone, but I agree that they would make the playoffs in the east and the west.

migya wrote:I still think Chicago will make the playoffs, probably as high as 5th and the Warriors will likely finish lower in the West overall. That's says alot.

I don't think that says much. east is a lot weaker. Chicago would struggle to make the playoffs in the west without rose. They might even struggle to make it in the east, they lost key partsOf their bench.

The only thing that makes Chicago likely to even miss the playoffs is how long Deng misses at the start of next season. That team is still very good and added Hinrich, Nate and one or two other pieces that cover some holes well enough. They'll make the playoffs, health permitting, and would say in the West as well. Don't see much better lineups than Deng, Boozer, Noah, Hamilton, Gibson. They have some nice role players also.

Yeah, but Deng - like Rose - is injured to start the year. Plus, there's no point guard in that lineup. Hamilton at the 1 is as ugly as Dunleavy at the 1.

I agree with 8th; Thibodeau makes guys like Noah, Gibson, and Boozer look a lot better than they really are by keeping them protected in a certain role within the system. Houston's really gonna bite the bullet with Asik's poison pill season. Dude is decent, but bigs in Chicago have a phenomenal coach to thank for their success.

migya wrote:I still think Chicago will make the playoffs, probably as high as 5th and the Warriors will likely finish lower in the West overall. That's says alot.

I don't think that says much. east is a lot weaker. Chicago would struggle to make the playoffs in the west without rose. They might even struggle to make it in the east, they lost key partsOf their bench.

The only thing that makes Chicago likely to even miss the playoffs is how long Deng misses at the start of next season. That team is still very good and added Hinrich, Nate and one or two other pieces that cover some holes well enough. They'll make the playoffs, health permitting, and would say in the West as well. Don't see much better lineups than Deng, Boozer, Noah, Hamilton, Gibson. They have some nice role players also.

Yeah, but Deng - like Rose - is injured to start the year. Plus, there's no point guard in that lineup. Hamilton at the 1 is as ugly as Dunleavy at the 1.

I agree with 8th; Thibodeau makes guys like Noah, Gibson, and Boozer look a lot better than they really are by keeping them protected in a certain role within the system. Houston's really gonna bite the bullet with Asik's poison pill season. Dude is decent, but bigs in Chicago have a phenomenal coach to thank for their success.

After Thibs, Rose makes that team go. And Deng after that.

We're talking comparing the two teams and Mark Jackson has everything to prove. I await a very good defensive scheme.

Warning typing from my phone. Chicago has an excellent starting 5, each position has a lower tier potential all star except the sg position. Then of course there is Rose who is a physical speciman playing the pg position, his ability to get to the hoop, the power, the consistent jumper, I see him as a mini lebron.

Compare Rose to Curry, while Curry has the shooting Rose has about everything else, that said Rose is the best pg in the league.

As far as warriors compared to the bulls, we can all agree after this season warriors talent wise got closer to the bulls. Overall its good to be mentioned with the top tier teams unlike before when we knew we were goiong to blow