I want to first preface by saying thank you for your thought out, honest replies. Clearly your faith actually means something to you and I respect that. I often generalize when talking about religion and lump everyone into the religious zealot category and I shouldn't.

No problem. I generalize all the time too. For the most part, though, most of my Christian friends feel the same way I do. They are even better at this (explaining my faith) then me. Either way, I enjoy it.

I also appreciate the conversation. I have no problem answering questions/being challanged either.

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So what does being with him gain me over not being with him? I'm not talking about any mental state, I mean purely physical. The reason I keep referring back to being a good, moral person is because I am looking for tangible benefits of worshiping over not worshiping. I don't mean it in a materialistic sense..... Just something I can put a value on.... i.e. value to me.

I think i'll address this in a lower paragraph grouped in with some of the other questions.

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So its an all or none scenario? Folks that have accepted God can be perfect but the rest of us sinners are keeping them down? Clearly people that worship worship some type of God, so what is keeping them from being perfect?

"I am the way the truth and the life, no one comes to the father accept through me". John 14:6

It's pretty clear. We're all sinners. Those that accept Christ are made perfect through Christ, in God's sight. He's atoned for the sins we have, and continue to have.

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But he wont love me enough to save me unless I accept him into my life, correct?

He loves you enough to send his only son to Die on a cross to atone for your sin. All you have to do is accept that sacrifice. Either way, he loves you, He'll just be extremely sad that you didn't utilize his way to atone for that sin.

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I believe this would lead to a state of monotony. Everyone being the same by living the life God has laid out, Gods plan I suppose.

Are you really good at something? Most people are. Usually we, believers or not, gravitate to the gift God has given us. If those gifts were planned by God, who created some pretty complex stuff, how well do you think they'd work together if we could do it, unhindered by sin, together?

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The only thing keeping that child's picture out of a fine arts exhibit would be based on a judgement by another human being. I know what you are getting at, just poking at your analogy!!

BUT......The person making that judgement has standards. No matter how badly the kid says 'I believe that what i've drawn is good enough', It still isn't according to that persons standards. I guess to further the Analogy (I've created a monster ) and say that Jesus took everyone's scribbled picture and told God that his perfect picture belonged to all of us.

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This kind of goes back to my earlier question... So your standards increased when you accepted God into your life. Why couldn't you have done that without accepting God? I'm not questioning your faith, but asking why your motivator was God and not the want to simply be a better person?

See the lower Paragraph

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There is alot going on here, but I simply want to touch one point.... this is all based on the assumption that there is an afterlife. That there is a heaven and hell.

True. Can't argue with that.

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I personally am not rejecting Him. I just don't see how accepting him will lead me to be a better person. And after-all, isn't that what the idea is, to eliminate sin? Strive for perfection...

Ok, I'll try to explain this a bit better.

Being perfect is not the goal of the Christian faith. That's just what was accomplished by Christ. The Goal of my faith is to glorify God and have a relationship with God. That can only be done because of our perfection through Christ. We can now have an unhindered relationship with God.

Because my sins have been cleared (my picture has been replaced by a perfect one) I can be free to live for God. I can live and do what God has designed me to do. I don't have to worry about 'being moral' becuase that's not my main concern. Glorifying God is.

Glorifying God brings out the characteristics of God. We call them the fruits of the spirit. Love, joy, peace, patience, goodness, kindness, faithfulness, gentleness, self control. These are characteristics of God. But These come out of a relationship with God, not a way to get to him.

My Brain is slowly becoming toast at the moment. I need to get some food. I'm sure this will just bring up more questions (which isn't a problem) but I hope it didn't muck up the waters too badly.

Glorifying God brings out the characteristics of God. We call them the fruits of the spirit. Love, joy, peace, patience, goodness, kindness, faithfulness, gentleness, self control. These are characteristics of God. But These come out of a relationship with God, not a way to get to him.

I think I can sum up my entire stance by addressing the points above...

I do not need God to practice, enjoy, espouse any of the traits listed above. I do not believe it is because of or in spite of God I either would or would not exhibit any of the above traits. I attribute them to having a deep respect for others personal space, property and opinions.

Perhaps at times I, like most others, will deviate from one or more at any given time based on immediate environment, or sin if you wish to call it that. But I am free and able to make amends for my wrongdoing and move on. Much like a religious person would then pray when they have sinned, I would apologize and make my wrong as close to right as possible.

No need to reply... I'm just arguing to argue. I respect any sane persons decision to believe in what they believe and as long as they live their life with respect of others, I don't care what the basis of that respect is.

I think I can sum up my entire stance by addressing the points above...

I do not need God to practice, enjoy, espouse any of the traits listed above. I do not believe it is because of or in spite of God I either would or would not exhibit any of the above traits. I attribute them to having a deep respect for others personal space, property and opinions.

Perhaps at times I, like most others, will deviate from one or more at any given time based on immediate environment, or sin if you wish to call it that. But I am free and able to make amends for my wrongdoing and move on. Much like a religious person would then pray when they have sinned, I would apologize and make my wrong as close to right as possible.

No need to reply... I'm just arguing to argue. I respect any sane persons decision to believe in what they believe and as long as they live their life with respect of others, I don't care what the basis of that respect is.

I hope you don't mind if I do reply anyways.

Remember I'm not trying to come off judgemental or mean but, according to what I believe, You actually do need God for those traits. He's given them to you. They are traits that his children inherited from him.

If heaven is where God resides then it can only be fair to say that hell is a place that lacks God, and His characteristics.

It's not bad, at all, to be good or moral. It's bad, IMO, to think that your morals will get you into heaven or God will think you've done enough. Then we're back at the Kindergartner's drawing.

Even if God isn't the personification of the Christian Diety do you really think our standards will meet his (or it's or hers)?

That being said, I believe that it's not up to me to convince you that you need a relationship with God. Only God can spark that. I hope he does. It sounds like you are a great guy that has an amazing heart for people. That, too, is a gift from God. Good luck, and I'll be praying for you.

I think I can sum up my entire stance by addressing the points above...

I do not need God to practice, enjoy, espouse any of the traits listed above. I do not believe it is because of or in spite of God I either would or would not exhibit any of the above traits. I attribute them to having a deep respect for others personal space, property and opinions.

Perhaps at times I, like most others, will deviate from one or more at any given time based on immediate environment, or sin if you wish to call it that. But I am free and able to make amends for my wrongdoing and move on. Much like a religious person would then pray when they have sinned, I would apologize and make my wrong as close to right as possible.

No need to reply... I'm just arguing to argue. I respect any sane persons decision to believe in what they believe and as long as they live their life with respect of others, I don't care what the basis of that respect is.

Do you understand the consquences of rejecting God and His free gift?
Do you understand what it means to be separated from God for eternity?
Can you wrap your brain around eternity? I can't. But I do know that I would not want to be without Him for eternity.
You do sound like an inteligent person, don't let that get in your way.
Accepting Jesus is easy and it's a free gift. Just try not to overthink it. As many do.
I read a quote once and it said," to find God using human wisdom is like searching for the sun with a candle".

Remember I'm not trying to come off judgemental or mean but, according to what I believe, You actually do need God for those traits. He's given them to you. They are traits that his children inherited from him.

I can accept that. But if hes given them to me, I already posses them.

And I don't believe I need him because I can employ those characteristics without him of my own free will. I do, for the most part.

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Originally Posted by L4CX

If heaven is where God resides then it can only be fair to say that hell is a place that lacks God, and His characteristics.

I agree.

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Originally Posted by L4CX

It's not bad, at all, to be good or moral. It's bad, IMO, to think that your morals will get you into heaven or God will think you've done enough. Then we're back at the Kindergartner's drawing.

Getting into heaven is not my motivator to to be a good, moral person. Respect for others is. And as such, I am not "trying" to get into heaven, I am simply being respectful.

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Originally Posted by L4CX

Even if God isn't the personification of the Christian Diety do you really think our standards will meet his (or it's or hers)?

In a general sense, I understand your view on this and I will answer no. My own personal view, Im not worried about it. I treat others they way I want to be treated, both in my personal dealings and by business dealings. If what I am doing it wrong and there is a time when Ill be judged, I know that I have done my best to be a moral person of my own free will and I will take my lumps if given.

But I also believe there is no afterlife, once you're dead, you're dead.

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Originally Posted by L4CX

That being said, I believe that it's not up to me to convince you that you need a relationship with God. Only God can spark that. I hope he does. It sounds like you are a great guy that has an amazing heart for people. That, too, is a gift from God. Good luck, and I'll be praying for you.

I have not reached any of my conclusions based on hearsay or a lack of personal involvement in church. I spent my early years, most of them, involved in a Baptist Church in FL. My family put my brother and I on a bus every Sunday morning and we went to mass and then Sunday School. My wife and I spent a few years at a Methodist church here in Lansing.

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Originally Posted by aber61

Do you understand the consquences of rejecting God and His free gift?

Now we are going to touch on some of the specific things I find revolting about religion. His "gift" isn't free. It costs money to receive and accept his "gift". The church is much like the Government and the IRS, On one hand the church will say the things you are saying to me, and on the other pass around the offering plate and ask that I support you telling me I'm going to hell if I don't participate. I realize that tithing is not "required." But there are some churches that will take it right from your pay.

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Originally Posted by aber61

Do you understand what it means to be separated from God for eternity?

Yes, I have accepted my views and do not believe there is a pot of gold at the end of the rainbow. Its just a grassy meadow where I get to lay down and be done.

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Originally Posted by aber61

Can you wrap your brain around eternity? I can't. But I do know that I would not want to be without Him for eternity.

I can wrap my brain around eternity in the sense of when my time is up, its up. I do not believe in the afterlife.

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Originally Posted by aber61

You do sound like an inteligent person, don't let that get in your way.
Accepting Jesus is easy and it's a free gift. Just try not to overthink it. As many do.

Thank you. And I do not see my personality as a hindrance to finding anything. I am not, nor have I ever felt like I needed to find God. Perhaps that day will come?? Who knows. My mind is not closed to the idea, but there are to many things that do not sit right with me regarding organized religion.

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Originally Posted by aber61

I read a quote once and it said," to find God using human wisdom is like searching for the sun with a candle".

I can accept that. If I ever start looking for God, Ill keep it in mind.

I can accept that. But if hes given them to me, I already posses them.

And I don't believe I need him because I can employ those characteristics without him of my own free will. I do, for the most part.

I agree.

Getting into heaven is not my motivator to to be a good, moral person. Respect for others is. And as such, I am not "trying" to get into heaven, I am simply being respectful.

In a general sense, I understand your view on this and I will answer no. My own personal view, Im not worried about it. I treat others they way I want to be treated, both in my personal dealings and by business dealings. If what I am doing it wrong and there is a time when Ill be judged, I know that I have done my best to be a moral person of my own free will and I will take my lumps if given.

But I also believe there is no afterlife, once you're dead, you're dead.

I have not reached any of my conclusions based on hearsay or a lack of personal involvement in church. I spent my early years, most of them, involved in a Baptist Church in FL. My family put my brother and I on a bus every Sunday morning and we went to mass and then Sunday School. My wife and I spent a few years at a Methodist church here in Lansing.

Now we are going to touch on some of the specific things I find revolting about religion. His "gift" isn't free. It costs money to receive and accept his "gift". The church is much like the Government and the IRS, On one hand the church will say the things you are saying to me, and on the other pass around the offering plate and ask that I support you telling me I'm going to hell if I don't participate. I realize that tithing is not "required." But there are some churches that will take it right from your pay.

You are correct in saying that religion can be revolting. The gift I talk about is the gift of salvation. The money giving you talk about is purely voluntarily. God would rather you not give at all if you do it thinking you have to. Give wiilingly and from the heart. I would'nt give if I thought that it was being misused or lining the pastors pocket. Besides you would not end up in hell for not giving.

Yes, I have accepted my views and do not believe there is a pot of gold at the end of the rainbow. Its just a grassy meadow where I get to lay down and be done.

that's ok, it's your view.

I can wrap my brain around eternity in the sense of when my time is up, its up. I do not believe in the afterlife.

I at one time did not either, but after hearing experiences from people that have passed away and come back only to tell of thier experience is somewhat convincing. Most of the stories are very similar. I can't explain why but that has to say something about the after life and besides it does talk about the afterlife in the bible and other secular books throughout history.

Thank you. And I do not see my personality as a hindrance to finding anything. I am not, nor have I ever felt like I needed to find God. Perhaps that day will come?? Who knows. My mind is not closed to the idea, but there are to many things that do not sit right with me regarding organized religion.

As I said organized religion can and does turn off many people. It is about a relationship with Christ.
A relationship is about spending time with that person/being or as Christians do is by reading His word. He reveals Himself through His word.

I can accept that. If I ever start looking for God, Ill keep it in mind.

You really don't need to look for Him, He's already there. Just ask Him to show you Himself and if He is real.
When the time is right and your ready He will be there.

I have not reached any of my conclusions based on hearsay or a lack of personal involvement in church. I spent my early years, most of them, involved in a Baptist Church in FL. My family put my brother and I on a bus every Sunday morning and we went to mass and then Sunday School. My wife and I spent a few years at a Methodist church here in Lansing.

Well, I guess there's not much more to say then. I will be praying for you and hoping that God will show you that you need him.

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Now we are going to touch on some of the specific things I find revolting about religion. His "gift" isn't free. It costs money to receive and accept his "gift". The church is much like the Government and the IRS, On one hand the church will say the things you are saying to me, and on the other pass around the offering plate and ask that I support you telling me I'm going to hell if I don't participate. I realize that tithing is not "required." But there are some churches that will take it right from your pay.

God's gift has nothing to do with the money that churches collect.

It's actually a throwback to Levitical regulations. Also, unlike the Government, the money they collect usually goes to missionaries and making the church more able to help the community.

Don't forget about the amount that goes to the preacher so he can buy that brand spankin new Cadillac and his beautiful $250,000 house. It takes a lot of donations to pay him a good salary!

and thus, the great weakness of organized religion------it is run by humans.

many religious organizations end up as money laundering operations with a select few really benefiting from a concerntration of your dollars. then the rest is given out in small increments that are not large enough to elevate most out of their dire situations.

why spend $2 mil on a new "house of God" when that $2 mil could do a lot for those in need? the maintenance budget of many churches could pull a lot of people out of poverty, send someone further on in school, buy medical care,

Don't forget about the amount that goes to the preacher so he can buy that brand spankin new Cadillac and his beautiful $250,000 house. It takes a lot of donations to pay him a good salary!

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Originally Posted by jimhri

and thus, the great weakness of organized religion------it is run by humans.

many religious organizations end up as money laundering operations with a select few really benefiting from a concerntration of your dollars. then the rest is given out in small increments that are not large enough to elevate most out of their dire situations.

why spend $2 mil on a new "house of God" when that $2 mil could do a lot for those in need? the maintenance budget of many churches could pull a lot of people out of poverty, send someone further on in school, buy medical care,

I'd bet that for every "mega-church" that is how you describe there's probably a hundred churches where the "maintenance budget" consists of parishioners volunteered time and donated materials, the clergy lives in a modest house and is happy to have a car that starts and runs each day.

I'd bet that for every "mega-church" that is how you describe there's probably a hundred churches where the "maintenance budget" consists of parishioners volunteered time and donated materials, the clergy lives in a modest house and is happy to have a car that starts and runs each day.

I've traveled rural areas quite a bit on business trips. You are right, there are many many small, humble churches around our country.

A friend of mine is a "preacher" at a small local church. No tithing plate, only a donation box. No mention of money during service (he says, I don't attend services). I worked with him at $13/hr at a shop and he says he makes less money now. Modest house drives a Kia. Despite the less money he is the happiest he's been in his life. He is able to do what he loves and get paid, even if modestly.
I have to give him credit for what he's done. Not everyone finds a job that pays the bills and love doing it.