thats great but i never seen it and in order to kick your A$$ i want to see
how they looked lmao but not to worrie think i got a lil somthing for yall
dont get all bent its just some good old smack talk

I am still dreaming of the day when HPI or some other R/C body manufacturer would make this 1972 Pontiac Firebird into a PolyCarb body.

The Nikko firebird could be sacrificed to a backpour....

If we can make a buck. McCallister will pull them. By that I mean if we can make a mold from the Nikko then they will pull the shells for us.
Then all we need is some good photos of the lights and trim and I think I could photoshop a decal sheet together. I bet Seils could print them for us.

I have heard about this product made by Smooth-On called OOMOOŽ Silicone Rubber. It allows you to cast a rubber mold of just about any 3-dimensional object so that you can re-create it. However I don't think it would stand up to the high temperatures that are used when a PolyCarb body is made. The rubber mold could be used to make an epoxy resin copy of the '72 Firebird body, but it would only last 2 seconds on any R/C racetrack.

myron sorry to be a pain in the A$$ but i like to paint and i just wanted to know what i was up against for the concourse so if last years was good i need to make it better muuhhhhhhhhahhaahhahahaa

you are never a pain..Im always here to answer questions and help anyway I can, never think that...okay...Chris aka Flying Monkey won VTA CC, with a HPI 68 Camaro, white/green...and Julio aka Luvtorun won GT CC, with a BMW...David Jr won Jr VTA CC with his awesome Camaro Ive tries to post pics of the winners with trophy in hand, but no luck...but here are some pics of the cars ,just not in detail

I have heard about this product made by Smooth-On called OOMOOŽ Silicone Rubber. It allows you to cast a rubber mold of just about any 3-dimensional object so that you can re-create it. However I don't think it would stand up to the high temperatures that are used when a PolyCarb body is made. The rubber mold could be used to make an epoxy resin copy of the '72 Firebird body, but it would only last 2 seconds on any R/C racetrack.

A negative could be made and then an aluminum bearing epoxy could be used to make a buck. Smooth on has a product that like that, which they actually show a mold for a vacuum form made using the product.

Correct me if I am wrong but I see a few flaws in using the nikko or another Firebird to cast from. First you would have to destroy the original to remove it from the mold. A lot of complex crevices for the mold material to seep into. Next you would have to pour a master for a vacuum form so you have to destroy the mold you made to remove it from your master. Then your poured master would have to be substantially reworked so a lexan body could be removed from your poured master without having to destroy the master itself and so it could be reused. Perhaps you could use a plaster to doctor up the original firebird body so none of this extra work would be necessary and you may even be able to save the original body when you were done. Just some thoughts.

Having done a LOT of casting work (did a sideline business for a while making resin conversion kits for 1/32 slot cars, hence my avatar was my company logo, my "NOISYMUSE" e-mail addresses, etc) I can confidently state that the original should be undamaged by the process of creating a mold from it. If it has opening doors, etc, it becomes challenging (as you've identified) to seal it up, but clay solves most, if not all, such problems.

I made molds using VERY valuable original model bodies from the '60's and from hand carved originals that one couldn't place a value on. The original would never show any trace that anything had been done. Well, except for the time I didn't spay the original with mold release...that wasn't a good situation, thankfully the original was mine and after a LOT of clean-up work was none the worse for wear. I also did a few from diecast bodies that had opening doors. For the thin-wall castings I was doing you pretty much destroyed the original of these as I had to grind off all the hinges, etc. Since a vac-forming plug is done in a female mold this wouldn't be necessary in this case.

I've got a couple friends who do vac-forming work, one only does smaller pieces. The other has done work for Revell, etc on 1/32 and 1/24 offerings and has done some 1/10 bodies as well. As Rob identified, a mold is made from the carved master, then a plug is cast using a metal-bearing epoxy of some sort because the plug has to be HARD. It also has to be incredibly smooth. Victor's plugs are works of art, they have a deep metallic sheen to them and are SO shiny and smooth that they could be displayed on a mantel as a piece of fine art. They are beautiful all on their own.

Which brings us to the next part, the actual vacuum forming. Cleanliness, almost surgical room cleanliness, is required because any dust, etc shows up quite clearly in the finished product. An example of this are bodies pulled by a fellow in Australia (won't name names) which end up looking almost bubbly or at least cloudy in appearance which is completely attributable to the fact he ISN'T maintaining a clean enough work space.

Then there's the knowing/understanding what the materials and process are capable of (undercuts, etc)...then getting mold breaks to line up with detail lines already present in the model being pulled, etc.

And the equipment required... It takes a fair bit o' engineering and "suck" (and heat, and...) to make a lowly 1/32 scale body. Those requirements expand pretty much exponentially to form a MUCH larger 1/10 body. Someone with existing equipment might be convinced to do a short run of pre-paid bodies IF someone provided an appropriate plug, but they may have concerns re: licensing, copyright, etc also. Witness Protoform not calling cars what they are intended to represent, etc.

And most of this jumps WAY ahead of the real problem...assumes someone is adequately motivated to even TRY making a plug, then actually comes up with a useable piece.

Scottrik--who'd LOVE a '70-73 Trans-am himself...

__________________
Congressmen should wear uniforms like NASCAR drivers so we can identify their corporate sponsors.

Thanks for the explanation. Using the clay to seal up the original is where I was going with the plaster idea although the clay would be much easier to clean up. obviously a much better material.

Could you pour a lighter duty mold out of plaster of Paris or some type of resin to produce a smaller run of bodies? I realize the metal one would last much much longer but the costs involved would be huge. I would imagine you could cast somewhere between 20 an 50 bodies maybe even more. Not a good count for mass production but for personal use it should cover you and your friends for a while.

Vacuum shouldn't be a problem. I have access to a decent vacuum pump that is capable of 29 inches of mercury and a decent amount of volume. Heat shouldn't be an issue either. Again the things I have access to are in no way good for production but for just a few bodies it should work fine.

Thanks for the information. I'm not saying I'm going to try this out but it has got some ideas flowing. It may be worth a shot to make a few. Most importantly it sounds like a fun project. My biggest concern is cost vs finished product.

Could you pour a lighter duty mold out of plaster of Paris or some type of resin to produce a smaller run of bodies? I realize the metal one would last much much longer but the costs involved would be huge.

It's not a true "metal" plug, a metal-filled epoxy resin is used. The problem with PoP or general casting resins is that they are not hard enough. There's no way you could make PoP smooth enough and I have doubts casting resin could either. The metal-filled epoxy is hard enough to stand up to the almost endless polishing that is required to get it "right" AND still hold the detail.

Quote:

Originally Posted by 6376vette

Vacuum shouldn't be a problem. I have access to a decent vacuum pump that is capable of 29 inches of mercury and a decent amount of volume. Heat shouldn't be an issue either. Again the things I have access to are in no way good for production but for just a few bodies it should work fine.

You would be surprised. The friend that has a vac table is WAY into it, produces 1/32 bodies for commercial entities, has REALLY good equipment, and no way will it come even CLOSE to doing 1/10 stuff.

Doing 1/10 versus the smaller stuff presents a two-fold challenge. First, it's a LOT bigger and, hence, further off the table. You've got ONE shot to pull the material down over the buck before it starts to cool, etc.

Secondly, for 1/10 you're using MUCH thicker material so the vacuum needs increase substantially. A reasonably thick 1/32 body is .010. No one for VTA would be happy with the results of anything less than .030.

Quote:

Originally Posted by 6376vette

Thanks for the information. I'm not saying I'm going to try this out but itd has got some ideas flowing. It may be worth a shot to make a few. Most importantly it sounds like a fun project. My biggest concern is cost vs finished product.

Cost, if you're going to try to recoup your investment in time, would be EXHORBITANT. Hence the reason bodies are so slow to come out and are CAREFULLY selected to maximize sales potential. If you're only interested in recovering actual cash outlays and count your time as a labor of love, you could produce and sell them for a reasonable cost. Any of the conversion kits or general bodies that I did were subjects that I wanted to do and would have done regardless commercial appeal so I did not worry about the time spent prior to me getting my first couple bodies cast and in my hands ready to build a car for myself. From there I paid myself for time spent casting, prepping and packaging and for the materials used (and boxes, and labels, and...) when creating production kits.

Regardless...if you succeed I'll commit up front to purchases a body. Best of luck!!

Scottrik

__________________
Congressmen should wear uniforms like NASCAR drivers so we can identify their corporate sponsors.

It's not a true "metal" plug, a metal-filled epoxy resin is used. The problem with PoP or general casting resins is that they are not hard enough. There's no way you could make PoP smooth enough and I have doubts casting resin could either. The metal-filled epoxy is hard enough to stand up to the almost endless polishing that is required to get it "right" AND still hold the detail.

You would be surprised. The friend that has a vac table is WAY into it, produces 1/32 bodies for commercial entities, has REALLY good equipment, and no way will it come even CLOSE to doing 1/10 stuff.

Doing 1/10 versus the smaller stuff presents a two-fold challenge. First, it's a LOT bigger and, hence, further off the table. You've got ONE shot to pull the material down over the buck before it starts to cool, etc.

Secondly, for 1/10 you're using MUCH thicker material so the vacuum needs increase substantially. A reasonably thick 1/32 body is .010. No one for VTA would be happy with the results of anything less than .030.

Cost, if you're going to try to recoup your investment in time, would be EXHORBITANT. Hence the reason bodies are so slow to come out and are CAREFULLY selected to maximize sales potential. If you're only interested in recovering actual cash outlays and count your time as a labor of love, you could produce and sell them for a reasonable cost. Any of the conversion kits or general bodies that I did were subjects that I wanted to do and would have done regardless commercial appeal so I did not worry about the time spent prior to me getting my first couple bodies cast and in my hands ready to build a car for myself. From there I paid myself for time spent casting, prepping and packaging and for the materials used (and boxes, and labels, and...) when creating production kits.

Regardless...if you succeed I'll commit up front to purchases a body. Best of luck!!

It's not the amount of vacuum, but the speed at which you can draw it. If you don't draw the vacuum quickly, as in a second or so, the lexan will cool beyond the point at which you can mold it and you'll have a failed mold. . .

I have a nice vacuum pump, but it's not enough, by itself, to pull bodies. I have a tank that I can use to "store" enough vacuum, but it takes quite a while to suck that dry before I would have any chance at molding a body.

I was putting together equipment to do this but quit when it became quite apparent that I didn't have the room or the money. . .

I looked at Team Bluegroove's profile on eBay, it looks like he's based in Canada. He currently makes a repro of the 1969 Dodge Charger body (aka. Dukes of Hazard car) that would make a great USVTA car.
I will contact Team Bluegroove through eBay and see if he can do a special commission job with this Nikko 1972 Pontiac TA that I have.