Felritz wrote:God is dead, his followers should follow in example. . .

<rant>First off, A very big claim for a very little man.

I suggest you either hold your right to freedom of speech and rewrite that starting with: "I think [whatever you think goes here]" or back that up with facts if you can't do either I suggest you revoke those words.

I'm sure Spectre will agree that I am open minded when it comes to logical debates and not just some religious fanatic, sure we disagree on a lot of things, but we are all entitled to our own opinions

spectre557, YOU ARE A COMPLETE IDIOT.

Actually I have to disagree with that statement, as in my opinion Spectre here is, in my opinion, probably one of the people on these forums with the most logic and has a huge general knowledge. I've already mentioned that we disagree on a lot things, but I still think the man is somewhat of a genius and until you have better solutions to overpopulation that slaughtering the innocent, I suggest you apologize. (Yes I am indeed giving you a chance to apologize and set your differences aside so we can all continue contributing to logical debates)

</rant>

Last bit of my post will be aimed at Spectre but as always anyone is welcome to join in:

My view on Christianity is a very very postive one, as your view on atheism is a very very positive view to you, but imagine someone actually creates an atheist church and does insanely stupid things and worst of all people start following this atheist church, this pretty much describes my view on Christianity vs the church. I'm not sure if this reference will explain it perfectly, but in my opinion it paints a pretty good picture of where I stand on the religion things.

For one and probably my biggest hatred for the church comes from the question (from a christian point of view) can a person of another faith gain entry into Heaven? And I believe the answer to that is yes.

Everything that I believe about God tells me that what he wants is in right action and love. I honestly believe that your actions and choices will play a much bigger part on judgement day then where you were every Sunday between 8 and 12?

The7thGuest wrote:My view on Christianity is a very very postive one, as your view on atheism is a very very positive view to you, but imagine someone actually creates an atheist church and does insanely stupid things and worst of all people start following this atheist church, this pretty much describes my view on Christianity vs the church. I'm not sure if this reference will explain it perfectly, but in my opinion it paints a pretty good picture of where I stand on the religion things.

That seems like a much more reasonable standpoint than a typical religious person. However, I have to say, from what you've told me, you don't seem like a Chrisitan at all. At most, I'd say you're just a theist, who happens to agree with some of the fundamental principles of Christianity (no offense, just my interpretation).

So, exactly what is your definition of God? Is it an intelligent being, or an inexplicable force? Is he really all-powerful and all-knowing?

Once I know exactly what it is you do believe in, then I think I'll debate it.

That is a very good point indeed, how can we debate unless we have agreed on the terms up for discussion and precisely what they mean.

So here goes, I believe that God created the universe, His Son, Jesus Christ was crucified and thus gave us an open invitation to enter His Kingdom.

I believe God is all powerful, I do not see him as a physical being though, (maybe one day I'll day and stare at this old dude with a white beard and he looks at me going: "Oh really?", but I'll take my chances until then) I also believe that Satan exists, as I believe that he believes in me. I have to admit that I don't particularly enjoy the notion that life is simply a test, but fundamentally that is exactly what I believe and I see no reason that it should matter, I'm going to keep giving it my best shot.

One of the toughtest points in my theory, is why would God create us? Simply for His pleasure, I really think it's as simple as that. No big formulas, no amazing plans, just because I think the Guy got lonely. So on a previous point, I don't think it's as much that He shows a lot of our (human) emotions, I think it's the other way around, we have a lot of His emotions?

The7thGuest wrote:I believe that God created the universe, His Son, Jesus Christ was crucified and thus gave us an open invitation to enter His Kingdom.

I believe God is all powerful, I do not see him as a physical being though, (maybe one day I'll day and stare at this old dude with a white beard and he looks at me going: "Oh really?", but I'll take my chances until then) I also believe that Satan exists, as I believe that he believes in me. I have to admit that I don't particularly enjoy the notion that life is simply a test, but fundamentally that is exactly what I believe and I see no reason that it should matter, I'm going to keep giving it my best shot.

Before I try and pick any of that apart, I have to ask... why do you believe what you do? Where do you get your ideas of a loving god, a sacrificed son, an evil power, from? Because if you don't get these ideas from the Bible, I don't know a source that could lead you to think like this.

Until I've heard where you get this opinion from, I'm not in a position to properly debate it, however, I have to say I find it highly unlikely the source is reliable. Now I don't know about you, but I'm not going to devote my whole life and existence (even apparently after death) to serving a cause which I don't see much evidence for.

I'll leave it at that for now. So where do you get your morality and spiritual truth from?

The original concept of what I believe comes from the bible, but one day,(I was 14 at the time) I decided, (forum appropriate word for "fuck it" goes here) why the hell should I believe this base my life on these concepts when I have absolutely no proof that any of these ever existed, sure I've seen a few movies, but hell, I've also seen a few movies about the end of the world.

So I went out of my way to try and disprove anything written in the bible, my little rampage led me to more than I'd originally hoped to find, evey piece of history that I could find, every saying, every place, every language, every date, every birth, every writing style, it all reflects the truth 100%. By now we've had our debates long enough that I'm sure you picked up my use of reflect the truth and not is the truth. We cannot know, in any mind at any given timeframe, even seeing Jesus turn water into wine, the human mind would reject the notion as impossible.

I think the most important thing that I realised during this time is that Christianity is no longer what it should be.

"I like your Christ, but I do not like your christians. Your christians are so unlike your Christ"

Every time I think about the creation of the universe, and just existence in general, I begin to think that I'm not actually here and none of this stuff is actually happening. Kind of a Matrix sort of deal.

But in regards to your question, I don't think the world has the capacity to be atheist. I think people need something to make them feel like the actions they carry out not only are right, but in a lot of cases are things they don't have to be held liable for (if a giant omnipotent being in the sky ordered you to do something, you'd do it too) I think it's because people are insecure. Maybe that's what we should be focusing on.

Wootz wrote:Every time I think about the creation of the universe, and just existence in general, I begin to think that I'm not actually here and none of this stuff is actually happening. Kind of a Matrix sort of deal.

But in regards to your question, I don't think the world has the capacity to be atheist. I think people need something to make them feel like the actions they carry out not only are right, but in a lot of cases are things they don't have to be held liable for (if a giant omnipotent being in the sky ordered you to do something, you'd do it too) I think it's because people are insecure. Maybe that's what we should be focusing on.

I have to disagree, I am not an atheist myself, but from my experience a lot of atheists actually come from religious families, but logic has led them away from their "mostly forced by their parents" religion and into atheism, I must admit that of all the religions I have ever heard of atheism makes the most sense.

The7thGuest wrote:I have to disagree, I am not an atheist myself, but from my experience a lot of atheists actually come from religious families, but logic has led them away from their "mostly forced by their parents" religion and into atheism, I must admit that of all the religions I have ever heard of atheism makes the most sense.

Sorry, honest opinion.

You're not offending me, don't worry, Actually, I am an atheist, and you pretty much described the history of my religious beliefs XD but I guess what I was trying to say is that a lot of people go for emotional support over logic, and in that regard atheism feels unsettling to a lot of people. People are insecure about their place in the universe, and religion offers them assurance. You can see this insecurity whenever you mention atheism around people, they get all defensive like you just told them their whole life is a lie :/ so that's basically what I meant when I said people don't seem to have the capacity.

If you can notice, all of the worlds powers are attempting to make us all the same. Think the same, act the same, etc.The problem w/that is that we are all made different.

-One thing that you can watch is the United Religions , started under the United Nations. -What the united religions is trying to focus on, like what you are starting to hear from even some main stream religions, is that there is really only one god, we just all worship him in our own ways. Im sorry everyone i know this sounds great and everything, but its actually a total lie. The bible talks about Christ and him dying on the cross because of our sin. He took the wrath that we deserve upon himself. Taking our punishment. Other religions focus on, you can just be good enough (by doing good works, etc) to get to heaven, or that as long as you try to be a good person, that god will have mercy on you and you get a free ride to go to heaven. Unfortunately this is untrue as well. Heaven isnt the goal, but rather a relationship w/the one who gave us life. That is the reward/goal. The bible speaks of christ being the way, the truth, and the life,,, no one comes unto the Father but by him (Jesus Christ). The bible states that there is no remission of sin, w/o the shedding of blood, and that the wages of sin is death. Wages are something you earn. Hence Christs needed to die for us, paying our fine (though he was sinless). Sin cannot stand in the presence of a Holy God, it will be consumed. God demands perfection. This is something we cant do. God made the way for us through Christ. but we must turn from sin and repent to him. yes sometimes we will fall into sin, but we repent, realizing it is why christ died, and that he did it for us. Ex. lets say one day you commit a horrible crime (sin). You go to court and tell the judge, "IM SORRY". The Judge (if he is a good judge) isnt just going to let you just walk. You must pay the price for what you have done. Imagine a lawyer (Jesus) stepping in and saying, Judge, I will pay his fine/penalty myself. (remember the wages of sin is death) I love him and I dont want him to go to jail/perish. In all other religions there is no message of atonement. He died that we might live. All we have to do is believe, repent, and obey. Whats unfortunate is that this message has been watered down, and is seldom taught/found anywhere. The pastors you see on TV are all about telling you how to have everything you want on earth, or how if you send them money, God will give them a blessing in return. I encourage everyone who reads this to search for the truth, dont take my word for it but be like the boreans and search for the truth. John Mcarthur is a good pastor to look up. Dont listen to what everyone else is saying,, search it out for yourself. Pray to the lord and repent and he will give you the truth. It is an amazing thing. Read his word. It is a supernatural thing when he starts to use it to speak to you. A good start is the book of James. One more thing, "1Ch 28:9 for the LORD searches all hearts and understands every plan and thought. If you seek him, he will be found by you",

The gate is Narrow.

Didnt mean to take up so much space. I just had to spill it. If our eyes would meet on the last day, you would tell me, why didnt you tell me? slap me? something?

I don't quite understand this. God made us for the sole purpose of having something to hate? Then why are we even here? It seems like if all we do is piss god off then he might as well make a bunch of jesuses.

I don't know, your whole post seemed like it was going somewhere until you almost completely contradicted yourself towards the end there. You said United Religions is a lie because everyone isn't the same and you shouldn't treat them all the same, but then your post ends up saying we're all the same over and over again. I don't see the logic there but whatever, to each his own.

I do think this post helps make a point though, that not everyone has the ability to go through life expecting nothing at the end, and therefore need something to believe in. If the world could be a better place if everyone was capable of being atheist, well, that's open to interpretation ~.^