Love the personal attacks, I'll gladly take the high road here. What you fail to realize is that many nations want to see a two-state solution, but the terrorist leaders of Palestine can't afford to have peace, so they keep pulling this crap over and over again.

If they really wanted peace for their people, why aren't they at the negotiating table instead of lobbing rockets at random civilians. Hammas isn't even targeting specific installations, are they? Just a country trying to live in peace.

To be recognized as a nation, one must first act like one.

The point you have missed it. I never even mentioned Hamas, I only mentioned that you fail to recognise that there are innocent people on the other side of the fence too. Again you disgust me cubby as always.

would "areas of conflict/tension" be more accurate then? id hazard a guess that weapons are plentiful in a large part of africa as well (africa outside of the part considered part of the whole middle eastern tensions)

The point you have missed it. I never even mentioned Hamas, I only mentioned that you fail to recognise that there are innocent people on the other side of the fence too. Again you disgust me cubby as always.

I think the leaders of Palestine are the ones who fail to see that there are innocents involved. They are the ones randomly attacking civilians, and then hiding behind their own people when Israel fights back. Those are the people who should disgust you, my friend (but thanks for the continued personal attacks, rather than using actual, salient arguments - demonstrating that you really have no point to make).

The less you know, the more you believe.

Actually, Mr. Lennon, I CAN imagine a world with no hate, religion, war, or violence.
I can also imagine attacking such a world, because they would never see it coming.

Meh... Both Israel and Hamas are "in the wrong," so to speak. Which one is "more" wrong depends on your point of view, also so to speak.

Sir Robin, the Not-Quite-So-Brave-As-Sir-Lancelot.
Who had nearly fought the Dragon of Angnor.
Who had almost stood up to the vicious Chicken of Bristol.
And who had personally wet himself, at the Battle of Badon Hill.

I think the leaders of Palestine are the ones who fail to see that there are innocents involved. They are the ones randomly attacking civilians, and then hiding behind their own people when Israel fights back. Those are the people who should disgust you, my friend (but thanks for the continued personal attacks, rather than using actual, salient arguments - demonstrating that you really have no point to make).

I have always hated Hamas for using innocents in their plots and yes they do disgust me. I've never said otherwise but you continuously failed to recognise that they're are people other than Hamas in Palestine.

This just smells fishy. It seems like this all might have been just to test their new defense system.

Either way, what do you expect Palestinians to do? They've effectively been wiped off the map and have blockades stopping rations/aid to come to them. Firing rockets seems to be their last and only resort against growing settlements.

The rockets don’t seem to be doing anything. It’s like throwing a rock at a tank that you know will retaliate. If they want to die for nothing I don’t really care but they’re doing it within civilian areas. They’re not fighting back; they’re just prolonging the destruction. They can’t fight back militarily; one would think they would stop giving Israel cover in order to speed up a diplomatic solution.

On the other hand, Israel has not been doing their part in making peace. The blockade that has been strangling the Palestinians for years, the assassinations that have been going on that started the roll for this current round of violence. I think your, albeit excellent point, applies to both sides, not just Hamas. Israel, in terms of a land issue, would not want them to be a nation. From a joint-state idea, would you want some guys that you used to want out partnering with you in government matters?

This issue is larger than what we see, sadly. I do not think that a solution is simple.

I definitely agree, the larger issues are immensely complicated and have no simple solution. And it definitely applies to both sides. On a side note, I definitely wouldn't want to have some guys that were lobbing rockets at random civilians being partners in government with me (if I was Israel).

---------- Post added 2012-11-19 at 10:55 PM ----------

Originally Posted by N-7

I have always hated Hamas for using innocents in their plots and yes they do disgust me. I've never said otherwise but you continuously failed to recognise that they're are people other than Hamas in Palestine.

You really ought to read posts before making personal attacks on people, it degrades the level of debate and adds nothing but negativity to the forum. Try rereading (or reading the for the first time) my last few posts, and you can see where I've specifically pointed out the civilian issue on both sides.

The less you know, the more you believe.

Actually, Mr. Lennon, I CAN imagine a world with no hate, religion, war, or violence.
I can also imagine attacking such a world, because they would never see it coming.

You really ought to read posts before making personal attacks on people, it degrades the level of debate and adds nothing but negativity to the forum. Try rereading (or reading the for the first time) my last few posts, and you can see where I've specifically pointed out the civilian issue on both sides.

"They could try not electing terrorists and killing random civilians. Blockades are only happening because they won't let the ships be inspected for weapons, and are really being used for political purposes, rather than aid. Israel provides aid to Palestine, fyi." ~ cubby.
Who are "they"?

"They could try not electing terrorists and killing random civilians. Blockades are only happening because they won't let the ships be inspected for weapons, and are really being used for political purposes, rather than aid. Israel provides aid to Palestine, fyi." ~ cubby.
Who are "they"?

Don't you know? Don't you understand what's going on over there? I thought you at least had a general grasp of the issues. Maybe I assumed too much.

The less you know, the more you believe.

Actually, Mr. Lennon, I CAN imagine a world with no hate, religion, war, or violence.
I can also imagine attacking such a world, because they would never see it coming.

They could try not electing terrorists and killing random civilians. Blockades are only happening because they won't let the ships be inspected for weapons, and are really being used for political purposes, rather than aid. Israel provides aid to Palestine, fyi.

You do realize that Hamas gained power by two methods, right? First, they were formed based on the desire to fight back against Israel and its crimes, no matter what methods they had to use. Their largest desirable trait is pointing at Israel and saying "These guys want to wipe out all of Palestine." So really, when Israel attacks civilians in an attempt to force them away from Hamas, it just pushes them closer because it shows that Hamas was right. Its a twisted form of propaganda, yes, but when you've been marginalized by a superior military force for a few decades twisted logic tends to be an effective tactic. Second, they gained power by either absorbing or removing anyone else who was politically competent. They stay in power by preventing the opposition from being able to oppose them, making them the only effective leaders in the country.

Originally Posted by cubby

Don't you know? Don't you understand what's going on over there? I thought you at least had a general grasp of the issues. Maybe I assumed too much.

Lets not get too personal here.

“A fool is not a person who does not know something. Rather, a fool is a person who is given information but who chooses to ignore what he is given based on how he wants things to be, rather than how things are."

Pre-Islam, there were a lot more Christian Arabs and even Jewish Arabs.

Both have the right to live there, they are 'cousins' if not 'brothers'.

The current (post-Ottoman) situation is purely about power and control of resources, like any conflict - with a veil of nationalism and religious tension thrown into the mix (and, do not forget ever: Christians, Muslims and members of Judaism ALL worship the same God).

So, please remember - this conflict is about power, control and resources.

Both sides do wrong, I abhorr the slaughter of civillians but in my personal belief, the Israeli Government need to wake up and smell the coffee - they just cannot sustain their current position even up to the centennary of it's foundation.

If you disagree, then that's your opinion. I can respect that. Just do not spit venom at me and start calling me names.

SO thats what they mean when they speak of Zionism...Okay. I thank you for that insight.

That explains the actions of Israel a little bit.

Nah, zionism was originally the belief that a Jewish state should be formed in then-Palestine, now-Israel.

Originally Posted by cubby

I think the leaders of Palestine are the ones who fail to see that there are innocents involved. They are the ones randomly attacking civilians, and then hiding behind their own people when Israel fights back.

That's all very true. However, them being worthless pieces of shit doesn't mean Israel shouldn't be responsible and recognize there are innocent civilians on the other side of the fence a bit more.

You do realize that Hamas gained power by two methods, right? First, they were formed based on the desire to fight back against Israel and its crimes, no matter what methods they had to use. Their largest desirable trait is pointing at Israel and saying "These guys want to wipe out all of Palestine." So really, when Israel attacks civilians in an attempt to force them away from Hamas, it just pushes them closer because it shows that Hamas was right. Its a twisted form of propaganda, yes, but when you've been marginalized by a superior military force for a few decades twisted logic tends to be an effective tactic. Second, they gained power by either absorbing or removing anyone else who was politically competent. They stay in power by preventing the opposition from being able to oppose them, making them the only effective leaders in the country.

I do indeed, and I've pointed this out many times. But it's not any one's fault but the Palestinians for the mess their in with their elected government. Israel has wanted two-state talks for decades and Hamas can't come to the table, always finding a reason to avoid the bigger issues. Hamas randomly attacks civilians, then hides behind their own when the response comes back. It's a very twisted situation.

Lets not get too personal here.

Excuse me, but I wasn't the one using personal attacks. So let's not accuse the wrong person here, shall we?

---------- Post added 2012-11-19 at 11:23 PM ----------

Originally Posted by Wikiy

That's all very true. However, them being worthless pieces of shit doesn't mean Israel shouldn't be responsible and recognize there are innocent civilians on the other side of the fence a bit more.

Absolutely, but how many random attacks does Israel have to suffer before they can respond? Israel puts up with so much shit, almost on a daily basis, and then gets blamed with the coward "militants" (Hamas, not Palestinian civilians) hide behind civilians. Israel has an excellent military, but you can only be so accurate.

The less you know, the more you believe.

Actually, Mr. Lennon, I CAN imagine a world with no hate, religion, war, or violence.
I can also imagine attacking such a world, because they would never see it coming.

Your thinking of the USA here not Palestine. Not everyone has access to a gun.

Haha, oh god. Are you seriously denying the easily available weapons in the Middle East? Please, what a joke. Just keep saying the Palestine people aren't at least responsible for the shit they've caused themselves with electing a terrorist organization to run the country and for letting them cause the current and possibly future mess that is about to rain down on them.

Am I saying Israel is 100% correct here? No, they have a right to protect themselves. Israel is not going to dissolve, it is here to stay.