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It's Fun to Play the Piano ... Please Pass It On!

Lets take the 3k pounds example, buying a 3k pounds upright and play it for 10 years, it would still be a keeper. However if you buy a top of the line 3k pound yamaha cp1 stage piano, no way you will keep it after 10 years the advances in technology would have made it obsolete long ago. Replacing the digital would mean paying more money, making more expensive than buying an acoustical piano in the first place.

AP: $3000CP1:$3000

10 years later:AP : tuning @ every 8 month for $120, cost 1.8K, can sell for 2KCP1: no tuning cost, can sell for $300

Adjusted residual value:AP: $300 (+/- $1000)CP1:$300 (+/- $300)

The AP is still the same AP, with a bit of wear and tear.The CP1 is still the same CP1, with a bit of marks and dents.

Monetary value of 10 years of investment: worthlessEnjoyment value of 10 years of music : priceless

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"I'm still an idiot and I'm still in love" - Blue Sofa - The Plugz 1981 (Tito Larriva) Disclosure : I am professionally associated with Arturia but my sentiments are my own only.

I'm thinking the OP is a troll, considering his join date and post history.

Is there an "ignore" function on PW?

He might be a troll or somewhere a village might be missing a idiot.

But at least it's more entertaining then "Does a PX-150 have a plastic pedal"

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"I'm still an idiot and I'm still in love" - Blue Sofa - The Plugz 1981 (Tito Larriva) Disclosure : I am professionally associated with Arturia but my sentiments are my own only.

For many pro players, digitals exist for only one reason---work/gigging.

Yeah but then it gets easier to use a DP or VST then to mic up your grand, then you become lazy. People think I'm a DP apologist but forget I've got two real acoustic grand pianos at home. Given a choice ...you would like to always prefer the real thing but practicality's often mean the opposite is true.

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"I'm still an idiot and I'm still in love" - Blue Sofa - The Plugz 1981 (Tito Larriva) Disclosure : I am professionally associated with Arturia but my sentiments are my own only.

While you're saving your money for that Steinway D (does the price jump about 5% each year [$6,000]?), you may find that the Roland RD700-NX (Studio Grand setting) through headphones is useful as a practice instrument.

The Studio grand is better then that ... it's the nicest piano ever in a DP and better then most VST pianos.

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"I'm still an idiot and I'm still in love" - Blue Sofa - The Plugz 1981 (Tito Larriva) Disclosure : I am professionally associated with Arturia but my sentiments are my own only.

After lurking on these DP threads for the last 3 years, and spending God knows how much on DPs, i finally pulled the trigger on an acoustic piano. I can say with all honesty, I feel your pain. I owned one of the highest end DPs ($8,000!!) in my AvantGrand N1, and after 18 months, I decided it was just not satisfying. Every time I stepped behind even a decent grand, heck even a baby grand, I felt right at home. It sounds stupid, but acoustic pianos, with all the natural resonance and warmth pull music out of me. Digitals never really did. The closest thing is probably that new Fazioli sample in my Nord Piano 2. There's a certain magic with acoustic pianos which is why the DP manufacturers spend millions trying to duplicate the experience. There's more to the acoustic piano than modeled sounds, unlooped samples, supernatural decay, graded action, ivory feel keys, triple pedals, and polished cabinets with high end speakers.

With that said, the better DPs have their purpose and will only get closer and closer to the acoustic experience.

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Yamaha AvantGrand N1Nord Piano 2

"Be who you are and say how you feel. Because those who mind don't matter, and those who matter don't mind." - Dr. Seuss

I could be playing on my old Yamaha P120 and I'd bet my house most wouldn't notice the difference in sound.

I'll match your house and raise you another two ....

The fact is ... in a mix nobody (even a concert pianist) would know and 95+% of people wouldn't know in a solo.

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"I'm still an idiot and I'm still in love" - Blue Sofa - The Plugz 1981 (Tito Larriva) Disclosure : I am professionally associated with Arturia but my sentiments are my own only.

I think the main problem with acoustic pianos these days is price. I teach around fifty students and not one of them can get anywhere near being able to afford a nice grand piano. Even a decent upright costs an arm and a leg. to my students .

Most definitely. The ap manufacturers have practically priced themselves out of the market....at least with respect to players, teachers or aspiring players.

I couldn't believe the price, new, for that high end Yamaha upright..the model # escapes me right now. But I think it was over 12K, for an upright !

The only way a quality grand for most is even remotely obtainable is by buying used. It's so tragic because you have so many great players (both pro and serious hobbyists), along with dedicated teachers that are SO deserving that might never have the means ( much less the space to put it in) to acquire something nice. I can't begin tell you how many gigs/private parties I've played over the years in people's homes on a high end instrument that is nothing more then a piece of furniture to them.

Given the prices I totally get why people are turning to digitals. Heck I paid only $13,250 + Ca. tax for my Yamaha C7E in 1985 from Fields Piano in Orange County. What do they go for, new, today for God's sakes ?! I'm not into cars at all, but I'm fairly certain you could buy a mid-priced Lexus for what a new C7 sells for.

I'm actually working for Porsche Cars North America now, and I can tell you, the better grand pianos, especially Steinways, Steingraebers, Bosendorfers, Faziolis, etc cost more than many of our cars. That's ridiculous. They're farther out of reach than freakin Porsches! Now, I'd gladly pay over $100,000 for a high end grand piano vs a car because I have my priorities straight.

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Yamaha AvantGrand N1Nord Piano 2

"Be who you are and say how you feel. Because those who mind don't matter, and those who matter don't mind." - Dr. Seuss

I'm actually working for Porsche Cars North America now, and I can tell you, the better grand pianos, especially Steinways, Steingraebers, Bosendorfers, Faziolis, etc cost more than many of our cars. That's ridiculous. They're farther out of reach than freakin Porsches! Now, I'd gladly pay over $100,000 for a high end grand piano vs a car because I have my priorities straight.

Those grands might be more expensive but I need even more money to buy a house to put a used six foot Baldwin in. Grands don't work in apartments. For that matter neither do uprights. So, what is a pianist to do?

I think your love for music and piano trumps the OP's impressions of the lowly DP's out in the real world.

I'd love to read the forums that Bach, Chopin and Beethoven subscribed to and read their heated debates about how crappy the pianos were in those centuries.

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"I don't play accurately - anyone can play accurately - but I play with wonderful expression. As far as the piano is concerned, sentiment is my forte. I keep science for Life."

... I'm actually working for Porsche Cars North America now, and I can tell you, the better grand pianos, especially Steinways, Steingraebers, Bosendorfers, Faziolis, etc cost more than many of our cars. That's ridiculous. They're farther out of reach than freakin Porsches! Now, I'd gladly pay over $100,000 for a high end grand piano vs a car because I have my priorities straight.

I guess I'll chime in while I'm here. It was mentioned before, but the sheer utility value of the digital piano is worth its weight in gold. Sometimes the goal is to make live piano music accessible to listeners. It's not always for the player. Modern music and musical theatre would not be where it is today without DP's and synths. Sometimes (not always) it seems like these rants are the product of "ah, I'll just blame the instrument!"

After lurking on these DP threads for the last 3 years, and spending God knows how much on DPs, i finally pulled the trigger on an acoustic piano. I can say with all honesty, I feel your pain. I owned one of the highest end DPs ($8,000!!) in my AvantGrand N1, and after 18 months, I decided it was just not satisfying. Every time I stepped behind even a decent grand, heck even a baby grand, I felt right at home. It sounds stupid, but acoustic pianos, with all the natural resonance and warmth pull music out of me. Digitals never really did.

I find this argument from the OP bizarre, frankly, this is the same person who claims to believe that an organ makes a passable representation of an instrument, but a digital piano doesn't, as somebody else has said, seems to be just trying to stir it up.

A rather crude analogy based, I'm assuming, on your personal experience with both.......

ad hominemWhen you can't win, attack the messenger.

And how are you doing any different?

You are also attacking a messanger because you don't like the message, the fact is, we often become the person we despise or ridicule!

Originally Posted By: zapper

Originally Posted By: slipperykeys

"Who are we fooling - digitals are junk at this juncture "

Actually the real truth is that if digital pianos were such junk no-one would buy one, therefore the basic logic of your argument is flawed, as thousands of digital pianos are sold around the world, presumably, judging from the somewhat supercilious comments that have been made occasionally, to cloth-eared, foolish beginners with no idea what a piano sounds like!

well, number of sells has nothing to do with it, you have junk music on MTV and it's selling well so I don't see a flowed logic here from OP.

Why?You deny that the fact that a large majority of people who, I imagine, know what a piano sounds like have no bearing whatsoever on the facts. OK, you can deny it but the truth is still out there but you don't buy junk, it's only everybody else?

You seemed to ignore the rest of my post where significant global educational organisations see fit to use them, I notice.

Are they all the equal of MTV?

What I am saying is that a digital piano is most certainly not "junk", and yes, that is proven by the number of sales. If they were junk everybody would avoid them.

Doubtless there are those who will think that this proves the OP claim that anybody playing a digital piano will never be good enough to really test it?And doubtless, those defending his view agree with him?

One thing the OP said rings true: digitals are often overhyped. On the other hand, acoustics tend to be overhyped as well. Corporations have marketing departments specifically to overhype their products.

One thing the OP said rings true: digitals are often overhyped. On the other hand, acoustics tend to be overhyped as well. Corporations have marketing departments specifically to overhype their products.

Well said, that is one of the most important missions of marketing.

I don't really think marketing plays a big role in people's feelings about acoustic pianos. Acoustics are a known quantity, and haven't changed substantially in a hundred years. The reason digital piano manufacturers use highly persuasive marketing is because they are trying to get closer to replicating the experience of a real piano. So every new advancement toward that end tends to be presented as a glorious advancement. The fact that DPs are still quite a way off the experience of an acoustic is immaterial to them. They are pushing the things that do get them closer to their goal, rather than mentioning the limitations that keep them away from their goal. Anybody who's played a nice acoustic knows what they are about. DPs are playing catch-up, hence the marketing hyperbole.

Why?You deny that the fact that a large majority of people who, I imagine, know what a piano sounds like have no bearing whatsoever on the facts. OK, you can deny it but the truth is still out there but you don't buy junk, it's only everybody else?

yes, I deny fact that masses opinions count.People are being fooled all the time and the bigger the group the easier is to accomplish this.

BTW, calling digital pianos "junk" by OP was most likely figure of speech to make his point. Don't take it literally. I have two of those expensive "junk" keyboards at my "junkyard" studio and I enjoy them from time to time. The point is even the cheapest acoustic beats any digital piano sounds and feel wise.I prefer even slightly out of tune acoustic then top of the line digital piano, but there is a time and place for both of course.

All true and false. One personal argument: in my childhood I had a Förster baby grand in parents house to play on, and while it was a highly appreciated instrument in the vicinity, I have got tenosynovitis from practising on it - a lifelong condition. Without the aid of some soft and very consistent digital keyboard I doubt I cold have restart with 50 ys. again. (My vintage acoustic has a very light action, a special thing too.)

Hype or not - digital is a bless for me.

Many digital SW pianos are ahead of DPs, by a large margin sound wise some even of high-end cabinet instruments. There is no technological reason that this gap will not be filled within 1-2 Ys. with as leap. (We see already DPs with 1 GB builtIn samples; NUMA Concert) Modelling is just a newborn technology. Keyboards are mechanical constructs and can be reused even refined in digital. All prereqisites are already there for a steep improvement.

The whole debates are de-ja-vue, all resembling to the debates about DP ( = Digital Photography) for a decade or so. I don't want to spend much idle time with these questions (unless they are contributing to improvements). The result is today nobody is buying a digital camera anymore (just a camera - which is digital.)

Just wait for a decade or so. I am not willing to waste my precious time by fighting or defending myths - futile.

One thing the OP said rings true: digitals are often overhyped. On the other hand, acoustics tend to be overhyped as well. Corporations have marketing departments specifically to overhype their products.

Well said, that is one of the most important missions of marketing.

I don't really think marketing plays a big role in people's feelings about acoustic pianos. Acoustics are a known quantity, and haven't changed substantially in a hundred years. The reason digital piano manufacturers use highly persuasive marketing is because they are trying to get closer to replicating the experience of a real piano. So every new advancement toward that end tends to be presented as a glorious advancement. The fact that DPs are still quite a way off the experience of an acoustic is immaterial to them. They are pushing the things that do get them closer to their goal, rather than mentioning the limitations that keep them away from their goal. Anybody who's played a nice acoustic knows what they are about. DPs are playing catch-up, hence the marketing hyperbole.

Before I began to understand digital technology, I used to use marketing material for understanding. I tried to think verbal phrases give some serious orientation and insights into technology, such as "Ultra Progressive Harmonic Imaging (UPHI)" "SuperNatural (SN)" to "Imperfect Samples" (the latter one is the only true one). And I am a technologically trained person - which most buyers of a DP are definitely not.

The point is even the cheapest acoustic beats any digital piano sounds and feel wise.

... really?

I went to pick up some music yesterday and played a cheap baby grand by Pramberger (I've never heard of the brand, this store specializes more on DPs)... it made my ears bleed, and it felt horrible. Plus it was way more expensive than my DP.

I know you were just making a point, but I think despite it's downsides, a DP at least can provide a very consistent experience.

Everything is a trade off ... except for those purists who walk among us.

I grew up in the 1960's and there really wasn't much to choose from. The Fender Rhodes was introduced but was a monster to lug around. The Wurlitzer electric piano wasn't too bad but you really had to work when playing since the sound died so quickly. I bought a Yamaha CP25 or CP35 back in the 1980's and it was OK. I used a Roland A80 midi controller for many years and used all kinds of modules (and a sampler as well).

What we have today is pure gold by comparison for live work. A digital piano, even a hybrid, will never replace an acoustic but in some instances will actually sound better and will be easier to work with.

I'm fond of saying that keyboards (acoustic, electric, and hybrids) are just tools. For some folks their piano is a life long partner, for me it's just a tool to get a job done ... and I have a wandering eye. (I'm planning on going to the Messe and trying the AlphaPiano.)

I mostly agree with this. If it weren't for Roland SuperNATURAL I'd almost completely agree with it.

At this point any non-toy DP should have:1. A minimum of 4GB per piano voice (if sampled). 2. Resonance samples / algorithms that are quite obvious and believable. 3. Key position that is continuously sensed, not inferred from two or three switches.4. A well designed speaker system (even if it is for nearfield use only).

Like most DPs, the SN sound seems to suffer badly when rendered via speakers instead of headphones. I'm starting to think the ideal DP speaker might be the open baffle type (as ChrisA advocated a while back).

The OP may have some more or less valid points but I didn't really like the tone of the post. Stirrin' it up a tad, aren't we?

Anyway, as I'm just getting into this world of piano playing, I can hardly talk from personal experience with various pianos' sound and touch, but although I'm getting a DP in the near future, this very thread made me take a little time and skim through pages of local shops selling acoustic uprights as those are the only other viable alternative given the circumstances.

What I've taken away is that money wouldn't really be the biggest issue -- I could probably get some relatively decent (although older) upright for about $2,000 - 3,000; that's less than I'm about to spend on the CA-95 from Kawai and I could get on with the shopping right now. The real deal-breakers for me are the usual weight of an upright and being unable to play silently. You see, I live on the 6th floor of a 7-storey block of flats. It's quite a stretch to imagine getting a ~200kg (~440lb) heavy upright up 12 sets of stairs. I also anticipate that the neighbors wouldn't be very appreciative of my playing late in the afternoon/evening and I don't want to play on a dampened piano all the time.

So it's all practical reasons for me. Things like low maintenance, extra sounds and features etc. are a nice plus but not a complete necessity. I have already had a fair share of witty wisecracks from my colleagues at work, some of which happen to be (semi-)decent piano players, but now they seem to have accepted these reasons. I still see the purchase as a long-term investment, hence the higher-end model even though, as a complete beginner, I could have been looking at some of the lower-end DP's.

Like most DPs, the SN sound seems to suffer badly when rendered via speakers instead of headphones. I'm starting to think the ideal DP speaker might be the open baffle type (as ChrisA advocated a while back).

Interesting thought.

The first day I owned the RD-700NX, I plugged it into my home stereo (decent Boston Acoustic speakers) and it sounded pretty lame; I've always thought that was my stereo, though. Also, when playing back recorded performances of the RD on the stereo, it does not seem to sound as good as Ivory or the Vintage D.

I only use headphones when playing the Roland, and with headphones, it sounds very good.

I think that everybody knows that DP is only some kind substitute of real piano for people.I am playing piano for about 20 years, I have in home some mid-quality upright (which at the date of production in 1938 was for sure hi-end piano, but was not treated properly by previous owners). Sound is big and rich, as also it has beautiful furniture.I played in my life on pianos from totally crapped and low-quality uprights, dozens of old and newer grands in music schools up to brand new S&S D model, C model, Kawai RX (little bigger than baby grand) so in fact all kinds of pianos I had below my hands.

Now I am moving from my parents house to flat in old builiding and I can't take AP with me. I have to buy DP to let my neighbours live with me in peace

But the main thinking error is that we just cannot compare DP to acoustic instrument...They are mode for different people, different needs, different skills. Of course, there is some kind of the common area in the AP and DP usage, but...

Who buys DP:1. Piano lovers who cannot buy AP due to the living conditions (neighbours etc)2. People who just want to play piano for fun, most probably they will never achieve high-level technique and musical understanding... because they just don't want to people want to have fun with piano, not to spend 6 months on learning Chopin's Ballades or Debussy Etudes 3.Parents for children but they don't know will they love or hate it...

Going futher... people prefer DP's becase they are smaller and look better in small flats and don't take so much place as AP (It's obvious that in a big living room the only one good looking is mid-sized grand

Waht's more, on the DP you can have a lot of fun because its fireworks, different sounds, midi, playing with orchestra etc.So - in the eyes of 90% people (what we can clearly see on this forum) the DP is the right choice

Only for the left 10% of pianists DP is bad, just because they don't have another choice due to some external conditions, but each of them most probably would buy an AP if only could. And this is the little unhappy group claiming about the DP quality

So saying, that DP is a crap, generally makes no sense. If you compare it to the any grand, or the most of new uprights (meybe excluding these cheapest) we can say the it;s worse or crap. But go to any piano store, get 2-3k USD upright compare to any concert grand and you will also say that it's a crap...

It's the same story as with cars. You can buy Dacia Logan or even Tata Nano,and say that it's a crap... in many aspects maybe yes, but you cannot compare this to Rolls-Royce or Bentley or Lamborghini... it's just made for other people for other needs Eventually, both in Tata and RR you can drive from one place to another

The first day I owned the RD-700NX, I plugged it into my home stereo (decent Boston Acoustic speakers) and it sounded pretty lame; I've always thought that was my stereo, though. Also, when playing back recorded performances of the RD on the stereo, it does not seem to sound as good as Ivory or the Vintage D.

I only use headphones when playing the Roland, and with headphones, it sounds very good.

It sounds really good to me too (for a DP) through headphones. But through the speakers I built for it it sounds not so good. It seems there are one or more elements of the SN sound that rely too heavily on headphones, like a CD mixed via headphones will likely sound bad when played over speakers. Perhaps headphones were too heavily employed during its development?