WA State Alien Firearms Licenses

In 2002 I applied for, an received my WA State Department of Licensing (DOL) Alien Firearms License (AFL) as per RCW 9.41.170 (http://apps.leg.wa.gov/RCW/default.aspx?cite=9.41.170)

The license is good for 5 years after the date of issue, mine was good until 8/20/2007. I planned on getting a new one months before it was due to expire.

Currently the DOL WILL NOT issue anyone a new AFL.

Special alert for alien firearms license applicants

We are unable to issue alien firearms licenses at this time. The Federal Bureau of Investigation (FBI) has told law enforcement agencies it is against federal law to use federal databases for background checks if the law enforcement agencies share the results with a non-criminal justice agency such as the Department of Licensing. This means law enforcement agencies cannot perform the background checks required by state law for issuing an alien firearms license. Without these background checks, we cannot complete the application process or issue alien firearms licenses.

By the way, there have been successful challenges to this type of permit in other states, with litigation on Kentucky's law under way now. These challenges have been under the Equal Protection clause of the Fourteenth Amendment. A challenge in Washington failed in 1994, but it wasn't the strongest case.

To become active on this issue I have done the following and would like anyone else in the same position as I am to do this too:

I believe the only way we can get this fixed is if we address this issue together.

Thank you for your time!

MD

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Oleg Volk

August 23, 2007, 07:41 PM

Please support this inquiry with ideas and info. I'd like to help out but don't know enough to even start making supporting graphics.

MD_Willington

August 27, 2007, 12:31 PM

Replies so far:

Matt, I am copying John Fraser in on this email so that the two of you may be able to correspond and find a solution to you problem. As I mentioned, in the last month I have found numerous problems with the way background checks are being handled in the state of Washington. We will need to go to the legislature to get the appropriate changes made and I intend to work with police records to get the info right before we even approach anyone for changes.

Hi John, I just got off the phone with Matt. He is a Canadian who has live in WA for the past 8 years. He is attempting to follow the law but WA Department of Licensing is telling him they can no longer do background checks on the federal level and therefore cannot issue him an alien firearms permit. I should also mention he has a current and valid WA state concealed carry permit already.

In the past couple of months, we are finding police records and Department of Licensing messing with the way we process customers with and those without carry permits. There is a lot of confusion and each county has their own ways of processing. It becomes a problem for us when we are dealing outside of Spokane County. I believe the problems for the issuance of alien firearms permits stems from the same Department of Licensing policies we are seeing on all firearms processing.

Any info or help you can shed on this will be greatly appreciated. Call me if I can help or shed more light on what is happening on the left coast!

Robin

P.S., I had a guy in here a couple weeks ago (can’t remember his name) but I believe he is from Britain or Ireland now living in Canada. He mentioned knowing you from political dealings. He drove down to buy AR-15 accessories. Says he is still actively involved in Canada’s gun law confusion!

Robin,

I had a previous inquiry on this from a British citizen living in the Seattle area.

After talking to him, I spoke with an FBI NICS attorney who explained that FBI regulations only allow them to do background checks for a "law enforcement purpose," and since Dept. of Licensing isn't a law enforcement agency, they don't count.

She suggested that an alien might be able to apply for a CPL and try presenting that to Dept. of Licensing as satisfaction of the background check requirement. I never heard back from him, so I don't know if he tried that or if it worked. Since Matt already has a license, he might try as well.

I believe she said the best long-term option would be to transfer the issuance of alien permits to a law enforcement agency, which would require legislation.

By the way, there have been successful challenges to this type of permit in other states, with litigation on Kentucky's law under way now. These challenges have been under the Equal Protection clause of the Fourteenth Amendment. A challenge in Washington failed in 1994, but it wasn't the strongest case.

I hope this is helpful, and please let me know if you have any questions.

Best regards,

John Frazer

Matt,

We will need to seek advisement from our legal staff regarding your
case. They are out of the office today, so I will follow-up with this on
Monday. Thanks for contacting us, we will get back to you when we hear
something.

Legislative Aide to
Senator Mark Schoesler

MD_Willington

August 29, 2007, 02:49 PM

Sharing some responses from State .GOV employees.

Pay close attention to the last two pages of the response from Cathy McMorris-Rogers, the FBI actually respond to her inquiry.

The FBI outlines a course of action for the DOL to take so that they can obtain the background check data they need.

The other .GOV employees, no help... even when I did fill out the release form.

I am currently playing email "tag" a Legislative Aide to Senator Mark Schoesler.

Sounds like the DOL has give you the "form letter" response saying they cannot access FBI background checks.

This is not entirely true.

I will attached a letter from the FBI dated July 31, 2007, that was sent to Cathy McMorris Rogers regarding this issue, it gives the DOL a prescribed method of obtaining a valid criminal background check for a legal immigrant through ICE & DHS via the NLETS system.

Please see the explanation on the last two pages.

Thank you for your time.

Matt
attachment "McMorrisRogers.pdf"

09/05/07 02:04 PM
To MD_Willington

Subject RE: Need help with Alien Firearms License

Matt,

Thank you for your email and calling this to my attention. My
assistant, Pam Hahn spoke with Mr. Bill Forth with the Firearms Division
within the Department of Licensing. Your information is absolutely
correct. It may seem hard to believe, but the FBI has a policy on how
to give our information and currently, the Department is unable to
collect that information.

There are approximately 700 Alien Firearm Licenses that are all expiring
within the State of Washington, one being yours. The legislature tried
to pass two separate pieces of legislation last year in the 2007
session, but both bills died without passage. That is why this problem
exists now. The legislation that needs to pass would allow the FBI to
give the information to either the Sherriff or the Washington State
Patrol. Without this legislation, the department currently has no
authority to give out these licenses.

The next legislative session is scheduled to begin on January 14, 2008.
So until then, there is literally nothing that can be done. So you'll
know, it is a Class C Felony for you to have a firearm. The Department
recommends that your firearms be held by someone other than members of
your family, as they cannot be in your home. A friend's home is a
better idea.

I'll put this in my 2008 Legislative file, so that I can track this for
the upcoming session. I'm sorry I don't have better news for you.

Sincerely,

David Buri

09/05/07 03:43 PM
To: "Buri, Rep. David" <Buri.David@leg.wa.gov>

Subject RE: Need help with Alien Firearms License

Thanks for the reply, I do know about the felony, and as such, my firearms are not at my house, they are indeed locked away at a friends house in another town.

Thanks

Matt

09/04/07 09:20 AM

Matt,

I haven't heard back from them yet - but I am following up on this today.

The DOL will probably give you the "form letter" saying they cannot access FBI background checks.

This is not entirely true.

I will attached a letter from the FBI that was sent to Cathy McMorris Rogers regarding this Issue, it gives the DOL a prescribed method of obtaining a criminal background check for a legal immigrant through ICE & DHS.

See the explanation on the last two pages.

Thank you for your time.

Matt

08/29/07 09:33 AM

To: MD_Willington

Subject RE: FW: Need help with Alien Firearms License

Matt,

I was told by staff to question our liaison with DOL about this, I have forwarded your email to them and currently waiting for a reply.

There have been bills in the last 2 legislative sessions to fix the issue. DOL has done nothing in Olympia to get a fix.

And why would they, they are getting paid to process AFL (only they can’t so they sit around hmmm)

armedandsafe

September 8, 2007, 11:27 PM

This fellow is a carrier and works hard for us. Let him in on the request for action, also.

http://www1.leg.wa.gov/house/hinkle/

Pops

MD_Willington

September 9, 2007, 02:05 AM

Thank you for the heads up armedandsafe, I will send him an email.

MD

Dgindlesperger

September 9, 2007, 02:28 AM

Did not even know a alien could own firearms.

Superpsy

September 9, 2007, 01:35 PM

I'm a perm. res....so WA is one of those states that requires a permit for firearm ownership? Is that the issue here?

I'm finding it confusing that they differentiate between alien firearms owners and citizen firearms owners.

Diamondback6

September 9, 2007, 01:56 PM

Here in WA, the only licensing for citizens is concealed-carry, other than a kind of "backdoor" pistol registration on purchases from dealers; but foreign nationals need an AFL to even touch a gun IIRC.

rosco22

September 9, 2007, 03:31 PM

Well , become a citizen . You live here , pay taxes , enjoy all the USA has to offer . I see this as the best way .

dave_pro2a

September 9, 2007, 04:38 PM

Unalienable human rights know no border.

With the dems controlling the legislature and the governors office I'm not surprised this happened.

Note that a year or two ago they changed the way they handle out of state permits too. Must apply in person, and pick up the card in person (rather than apply in person, and they mail you the card 30 days later).

MD_Willington

September 10, 2007, 09:39 AM

Dgindlesperger,

Yes, immigrant and non-immigrant aliens can legally obtain firearms. The "who, how & why", is outlined at the DOJ website.

watson0625,

WA State requires Aliens of non-immigrant and immigrant status to have a firearms license, there are exemptions, I do not fall into those.

rosco22,

this would make the most sense and it is the usual answer I get... however, an immigrant alien cannot just stroll into the nearest US Government courthouse and get their citizenship, the soonest I can get US citizenship is JUNE 2010

WuzYoungOnceToo

September 10, 2007, 11:56 AM

Oh, man. When I read "Alien Firearms" in the subject line I thought it was a reference to phasers, disrupters and cool stuff like that. Imagine my disappointment.

MD_Willington

September 10, 2007, 12:54 PM

Contacted Rep. "Bill Hinkle - (R) 13th LEGISLATIVE DISTRICT" today.

F4GIB

September 10, 2007, 01:22 PM

Invidious discrimination against Canadians?

MD_Willington

September 10, 2007, 02:03 PM

No, not really...

Alien's license to carry firearms — Exception.

(1) It is a class C felony for any person who is not a citizen of the United States to carry or possess any firearm, without first having obtained an alien firearm license from the director of licensing. In order to be eligible for a license, an alien must provide proof that he or she is lawfully present in the United States, which the director of licensing shall verify through the appropriate authorities. Except as provided in subsection (2)(a) of this section, and subject to the additional requirements of subsection (2)(b) of this section, the director of licensing may issue an alien firearm license only upon receiving from the consul domiciled in this state representing the country of the alien, a certified copy of the alien's criminal history in the alien's country indicating the alien is not ineligible under RCW 9.41.040 to own, possess, or control a firearm, and the consul's attestation that the alien is a responsible person.

(2)(a) Subject to the additional requirements of (b) of this subsection, the director of licensing may issue an alien firearm license without a certified copy of the alien's criminal history or the consul's attestation required by subsection (1) of this section, if the alien has been a resident of this state for at least two years and: (i) The alien is from a country without a consul domiciled within this state, or (ii) the consul has failed to provide, within ninety days after a request by the alien, the criminal history or attestation required by subsection (1) of this section.

(b) Before issuing an alien firearm license under subsection (1) of this section or this subsection (2), the director of licensing shall ask the local law enforcement agency of the jurisdiction in which the alien resides to complete a background and fingerprint check to determine the alien's eligibility under RCW 9.41.040 to own, possess, or control a firearm. The law enforcement agency shall complete a background check within thirty days after the request, unless the alien does not have a valid Washington driver's license or Washington state identification card. In the latter case, the law enforcement agency shall complete the background check within sixty days after the request.

A signed application for an alien firearm license shall constitute a waiver of confidentiality and written request that the department of social and health services, mental health institutions, and other health care facilities release information relevant to the applicant's eligibility for an alien firearm license to an inquiring law enforcement agency.

(3) The alien firearm license shall be valid for five years from the date of issue so long as the alien is lawfully present in the United States. The nonrefundable fee, paid upon application, for the five-year license shall be fifty-five dollars plus additional charges imposed by the Federal Bureau of Investigation that are passed on to the applicant. The fee shall be distributed as follows:

(a) Fifteen dollars shall be paid to the department of licensing;

(b) Twenty-five dollars shall be paid to the Washington state patrol; and

(c) Fifteen dollars shall be paid to the local law enforcement agency conducting the background check.

(4) This section shall not apply to Canadian citizens resident in a province which has an enactment or public policy providing substantially similar privilege to residents of the state of Washington and who are carrying or possessing weapons for the purpose of using them in the hunting of game while such persons are in the act of hunting, or while on a hunting trip, or while such persons are competing in a bona fide trap or skeet shoot or any other organized contest where rifles, pistols, or shotguns are used. Nothing in this section shall be construed to allow aliens to hunt or fish in this state without first having obtained a regular hunting or fishing license.

I don't really get it, but a "non-resident" who has passed the Canadian Firearms Safety Course can apply for a five-year PAL. That means an American from WA State can go to Vancouver BC Canada, take the safety course, and get a firearms license... and they can still do that today

Anyway to get around this whole thing is section (4) saying I'm exempt if I go out and get a hunting license/tag for this year, and if I join a few local clubs and show up for sanctioned shooting events...:confused:

rosco22

September 10, 2007, 07:18 PM

this would make the most sense and it is the usual answer I get... however, an immigrant alien cannot just stroll into the nearest US Government courthouse and get their citizenship, the soonest I can get US citizenship is JUNE 2010

That sucks , a person here and being productive , law abiding .

Good luck !!!

MD_Willington

September 10, 2007, 07:26 PM

Reply from David Buri

09/10/07 03:12 PM

Thank you for this information, Matt.

I appreciate the copy of the letter, I believe it does explain it exactly. Both actions that are recommended on the last two pages require passage of legislation. For us to pass legislation, we need to be in session and session does not begin until January 14, 2008. I know both the Department of Licensing and Department of Justice will be eager to see passage of legislation that will make the necessary changes with the issue of background checks.

I will keep your email address and let you know when the legislation is introduced this next session.

Sincerely,
David Buri

Never No More

September 10, 2007, 07:34 PM

You think the Democraps want thier voters armed?

Only the police and Military should have firearms.

So says Chairman Gregwior

user3214

September 11, 2007, 02:33 AM

This happens because people who want an alien firearms license are few. So few politicians care to fulfill their needs.

The same is happening with the gun community, as there are fewer and fewer gun owner the laws tighten and no fewer and fewer care.

For every .gov employee I have contacted, I have expressed that WA State RCW 9.41.170 was a violation of the Amendment 14, Equal Protection Clause.

I have received notice of 700 people that are in the same position as I am.

The government employees are saying they cannot do anything until the next session in the house.

Now I need to figure out how to get those 700 people together, and get legal representation and go after WA State RCW 9.41.170...

Not sure how I can do this though...

dave_pro2a

September 11, 2007, 04:52 PM

Isn't it nice when a "government loophole" removes the right to own firearms from a segment of society? Grrrr.

It's akin to the defunding of the federal program that restores firearm rights to those convicted of federal felonies.

They chip away at sub groups (legal immigrants, ex-felons, etc) completely removing a fundamental right via administration double dealing. Rights shouldn't come and go with the stroke of a pen.

The rest of us hardly even notice or care, because the 'majority' aren't affected.

Darth Muffin

September 12, 2007, 02:08 AM

MD, best of luck in your fight with WA state. When the legislature is in session next I will certainly call my reps and let them know about this.

Until then, the 14th amendment may not apply in your case. It says: "All persons born or naturalized in the United States, and subject to the jurisdiction thereof, are citizens of the United States and of the State wherein they reside. No State shall make or enforce any law which shall abridge the privileges or immunities of citizens of the United States; nor shall any State deprive any person of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law; nor deny to any person within its jurisdiction the equal protection of the laws."

You're not a citizen of the United States, so depending on how you intend to apply this to your problem it may not help.

However (and this is OT for this thread), the 14th Amendment would apply to something like Oregon's concealed license, which is shall issue for residents and may-issue for residents of other states.

MD_Willington

September 13, 2007, 04:26 PM

09/13/07 10:33 AM

Matt,
I am sorry there wasn't more we could do for you at this time. Senator Schoesler will visit with staff to suggest looking at legislation to address this issue in the next session. We understand that it doesn't help your current situation, but our hands are tied until the language is addressed in current law. We even went so far as to ask for a temporary license, but it was not possible.
I hope we can do something to remedy this problem.
Sincerely,
Krista Winters
Legislative Aide to
Senator Mark Schoesler

TheloniousBonk

September 17, 2007, 02:24 PM

I'm in the same boat. I live in WA and went in on Friday to get my alien firearm permit, only to find out about this mess.

Like you, I can't get my citizenship until 2010. But I don't have high hopes of this getting resolved before then. I guess time will tell.

BTW, clause (4) sounds like it only applies to visiting Canadians, not resident Canadians.

MD_Willington

December 18, 2007, 06:53 PM

I was just contacted by my local Representative http://www1.leg.wa.gov/house/schmick/

He has inherited the AFL issue from David Buri...

He just wanted to get in contact with me regarding the issue as the 2008 sessions are rapidly approaching.

carnaby

January 14, 2008, 01:18 PM

Any new word? I'd like my wife to get her permit. She probably should just get her citizenship, but that takes longer and costs more.

Also, any Washington Stater's interested in getting the silly firearm sound suppressor law changed so we can actually use them?

Diamondback6

January 14, 2008, 05:25 PM

Carnaby, I'm interested. We tried last year, but the politicians of a certain party *cough, cough* blocked it...

carnaby

January 14, 2008, 05:36 PM

How did you go about trying that? I'd like to get involved. There's a lot of ammo in terms of how Europe, esp Finland, deals with the issue.

user3214

January 15, 2008, 12:59 AM

I'd be interested in helping out as well.
At the moment there are 2 bills http://apps.leg.wa.gov/billinfo/summary.aspx?year=2007&bill=1011 -scheduled for review this Friday. The bill in messed up.

http://apps.leg.wa.gov/billinfo/summary.aspx?year=2007&bill=5456 -this is where the correctly written bill is.

MD_Willington

January 15, 2008, 07:07 PM

We have a new Rep;

http://www.leg.wa.gov/House/Schmick/

He called me about the issue, so far haven't heard anything from him.

I know him from his other business, he owns the vending machines where I work !

So the engrossed bill turns it over to the County Sheriff... good to know, I've met him a few times, IIRC friends of his are friends of ours..

Sometimes I love living in small towns !

Diamondback6

January 15, 2008, 09:56 PM

@Carnaby: Some GOP reps who are on our side introduced a bill to decriminalize noncriminal (i.e., not in process of committing a crime) suppressor use, but the Blue Team wouldn't give it the time of day.

carnaby

January 15, 2008, 11:02 PM

Wha? Really? I didn't know that. I wonder what the blue team has against decreasing the noise pollution in the woods?

Joe* called me a little wile ago regarding the non-issuing of AFL's in WA State.

I see that SB 5456 - 2007-08 was in the house on Jan 14 2008.

Just wondering how things went with SB 5456 - 2007-08

Thanks

MD Willington

cel.
work.

RESPONSE: Mr. Willington has requested a response to this message.

* I know "Joe" on a first name basis.. I know I should have been a little more formal, but hey, it's Saturday night...

MD_Willington

January 21, 2008, 03:46 PM

Matt,

Senator Schoesler asked me to thank you for your message - he hasn't
seen any formal action on this issue to date, but will watch for it.

Thanks for taking the time to write.

Krista Winters
Legislative Aide to
Senator Mark Schoesler

user3214

January 21, 2008, 07:38 PM

Please contact your representatives this is the only way the bill will pass.
http://apps.leg.wa.gov/DistrictFinder/Default.aspx

I contacted Ross Hunter, he said he'll read the bill and look into fixing the DOL issue.

I am happy with his response. We just need to get more representatives to look into the issue

eliphalet

January 21, 2008, 09:56 PM

She probably should just get her citizenship, but that takes longer and costs more. In some ways I understand but that statement Kinda speaks for it's self doesn't it?
We want the benefits of citizenship but don't wanna wait or pay the price.
Oh I forget, this is America the land of gimmies.

I wouldn't expect to go live in Mexico or Canada or the UK or anywhere for that matter and think all that is available to or for the citizens of that country would be available for me a alien, why should all of you expect that here?

Here you are living in the greatest country on the planet and your griping about the laws and how things are done here.
Reminds me of the folks that move here to Idaho from heavily populated, liberal, crime infested areas to escape all that, then grip about "how we did it back home in such and such" griping that that;s the way it otta be here too.

Sorry guys no sympathy here.
Play by the rules and become a citizen when you can. In the mean time enjoy the privilege you have of even being here at all

user3214

January 21, 2008, 11:05 PM

Perminant resident rights are “To be protected by all of the laws of the United States, your state of residence and local jurisdictions”

Actually yes if you move to live in Mexico, Canada or UK and establish permanent residence you would get all benefits, health care, pension, unemployment insurance and so on. You would have the same gun rights there as a citizen would(at least Canada & UK)

Your ignorance is saddening, this is a community where people should come with the same hobby and support each other.
This the same as saying – after all guns are banned – no sympathy there buddy, become a cop and you’ll have one.

furball

January 22, 2008, 11:48 AM

I am a permanent resident lives in Tennessee and here we have the same rights to firearms as citizens (We pay the same tax, why shouldn't we have the same rights?) . Pretty much the only right you don't have is vote. I was planning to move to Seattle area next year or two because of the beautiful mountain and ocean. But this issue is troublesome. Best wishes to user3214, otherwise I have to either stay or give up my guns. And please keep this issue posted. Thanks.

Matt,
Here is the history of SB 5456 per your request. As you can see, the bill passed out 48-0 in the Senate last year, and was held up in House Judiciary Committee. The Chair of that committee is Representative Pat Lantz.

I hope this information is helpful. The Senate did substitute the bill and changes are noted in the included Bill Report.
Joe Schmick
State Representative

MD_Willington

January 22, 2008, 05:56 PM

http://housedemocrats.wa.gov/members/lantz/

lantz.patricia@leg.wa.gov

MD_Willington

January 22, 2008, 06:24 PM

TO: Representative Patricia Lantz

FROM: Mr. MD Willington
BILL: 5456 (For)

SUBJECT: Bill 5456

MESSAGE: Rep. Patricia Lantz

I am a legal resident alien of Washington State, have been for the last 8 years (green card holder as of June 2005), & I do plan on getting my US citizenship as soon as possible (June 2010).

In 2002 I applied for, an received my WA State Department of Licensing (DOL) Alien Firearms License (AFL) as per RCW 9.41.170 (http://apps.leg.wa.gov/RCW/default.aspx?cite=9.41.170)

The license I had was good for 5 years after the date of issue, my AFL expired 8/20/2007, & I had planned on getting a new AFL months before it was due to expire.

As it stands the DOL cannot issue any new AFLs, I have however sent the DOL specific instructions from the FBI as to how the DOL could access the NLETS system for background checks.

Since I cannot get a new Alien Firearms License, I've arranged for my firearms be secured with a family friend, a natural born American citizen for the time being.

I would hope that WA State would allow for local County Sheriffs to take ownership of the AFLs since it already deals with the CPLs and they can readily access NLETS via the FBI

Thank you for the honor of your time.

MD Willington

RESPONSE: Mr. Willington has requested a response to this message.

Sent this to Representative Patricia Lantz... lets see what happens.. :rolleyes:

Diamondback6

January 22, 2008, 06:38 PM

Lantz is a definite anti, don't put much hope in her.

MD_Willington

January 22, 2008, 06:59 PM

Well, I gotta do something...

In other news, we're looking at selling our house in WA State ATM, realtors came yesterday...

We have two options... stay in WA State, or scoot on over to Idaho...

I'd hate to run away from this one now...

NewbieShooter

January 23, 2008, 02:02 PM

Hi Everybody,

I am a resident alien in the WA state and egar to apply for the AFL. Had been following this thread since past long time.

However i did not follow some parts of the engrossed bill, it says..

"Nonimmigrant aliens must also
possess a permit for temporary importation of firearms and ammunition" so does that mean all non-immigrant aliens who are not practising for Olympics are also required to have the firearms importation permits?

e.g. What will happen in my case?, i don't practise for Olympics but take part in local competitions organized by local clubs.

Thanks in advance.

carnaby

January 23, 2008, 04:09 PM

You aren't a non-immigrant alien, I think. So you just need your AFL and you're good to go :)

MD_Willington

January 23, 2008, 04:41 PM

If you have a "green card" you are an Immigrant Alien... also known as a "Lawful Permanent Resident, or LPR for short

NewbieShooter

January 24, 2008, 02:32 AM

I don't have my Green card yet, so that means i am a non-immigrant alien and just need an AFL correct ? but in order to obtain an AFL do we need the firearm importation permit ?

i am sorry i am little confused here.

MD_Willington

January 24, 2008, 10:37 AM

I never imported my firearms from Canada... too much of a hassle.

MD_Willington

January 24, 2008, 10:40 AM

Also thought I may contact my local Sheriff to see if he would talk to Lantz...

user3214

January 24, 2008, 02:43 PM

I just got am email from Deborah Eddy that she’d support the bill as well if it comes to the house.

MD_Willington

January 24, 2008, 04:18 PM

Here is your (and mine) mission if you choose to complete it; Contact EACH or YOUR County Sheriff and ask for them to support the transferring of Alien Firearms License ownership from the Department of Licensing to The County Sheriff's Office, just like the Washington State Concealed Pistol License is issued by their office as is set forth in SB 5456 - 2007-08.

Or better yet, have the Sheriff's Office contact Pat Lantz's office in support of SB 5456 - 2007-08

NewbieShooter

January 24, 2008, 07:25 PM

So currently the bill is still in senate correct ? so what will be the next step ?

MD_Willington

January 24, 2008, 09:00 PM

Contact Lantz and the Sheriff's and get them to support the transfer of the license to the County Sheriffs offices instead of the inept DOL...

user3214

January 25, 2008, 09:02 PM

When writing to the representatives – I think it’s helpful to convince them the law is reasonable. It’s helpful to mention the following points:

The proposed bill ensures that the persons receiving the license are stand-up law abiding individuals by doing the following checks
* Lawful presence check
* Country of birth criminal history record check
* FBI Fingerprint check
* Social and Health Services Check

We as a state are spending funds on Department of Licensing personal who are blocked in doing their tasks for a year and a half as of now(ie. Issuing those licenses)

MD_Willington

January 26, 2008, 03:43 AM

Would you care to right a form letter, I'm terrible at writing letters..!

eliphalet

January 26, 2008, 04:13 PM

The proposed bill ensures that the persons receiving the license are stand-up law abiding individuals by doing the following checks
* Lawful presence check
* Country of birth criminal history record check
* FBI Fingerprint check
* Social and Health Services CheckWhen folks do this, spend this much time and trouble and hopefully their own buck to own firearms, I see absolutely nothing wrong with non-citizens owning guns.
To me the rub is the unknown person and as an example I'll mention anyone from Cuba that sets foot on US soil gets a "free pass" no matter his or her past and similar situations.
Do you want this kinda unknown person owning/ buying firearms indiscriminately around the country, just because they have a green card? I doubt anyone does, citizen or not.

Please, I am not singling out Cubans, it is an easy example everyone knows about and was used as reference only.

We citizens have to endure Brady type of checks and our criminal records checked in this country why should people from far away foreign lands when nothing about their past is known have that same so called right?
Because they are supposedly here legally? I should hope not but I fear it is so.
People do come here legal that don't especially like America or Americans have dubious histories so due caution should be adhered to IMHO.

Sorry for the good folks toes stepped on, I do admire some or your work within the system and wish you well. It is I fear better safe than sorry sometimes.

I do fear it defeats all my argument to a large extent with the known fact that outlaws will obtain guns legal or not.

To the post below, this has nothing to do with illegals but with "resident aliens" only

Javelin

January 26, 2008, 04:16 PM

Ok so we want to arm illegals? I do not think I am following this post correctly or something.

:)

furball

January 27, 2008, 02:50 PM

Thanks to all the people supporting this issue. Just want to clarify a few things.

First, I think none of us here are Illegal Aliens. We are resident aliens, a lot are Permanent Resident Aliens. We have house here, job here and pay the same tax. America is our HOME now. Male permanent resident aliens between 18 and 26 are even required to register to selective service just as citizens, which means bear arms and protect America when things go wrong. However, we are not citizen (or yet) for all kinds of reasons, some because of the long (on going) process it takes, some just don't want to denounce their original citizenship.

As to eliphalet, I am not against background check. We here just want to update the state law so the background check is possible. The whole issue is the current state law now bans background check, which bans the issue of AFL AT ALL.

Also, people who has green card has already gone through a long and complex immigration process including a lot of background checks and FBI name checking. This is why Federal law only ban non-immigrant aliens to possess any firearms or ammunition (with some exceptions). And twenty eight states DON"T have a special restrictions on Permanent Resident Aliens.

I hope WA somehow recognize the residence/license in other states. If I'm going to move to WA, I hope I don't have to sell my whole gun collections (Takes a lot time and money). After all, WA is a fairly gun friendly state. If it is CA or NY I'm moving to, I won't even bring the issue up.

user3214

January 27, 2008, 05:14 PM

Here is a sample letter

Dear ________

I urge you to support SB 5456. It allows legal permanent resident aliens to obtain an Alien Firearms License in order to participate in sporting and hunting activities. The proposed bill ensures that the persons receiving the license are stand-up law abiding individuals by doing the following:
* Lawful presence check
* Country of birth criminal history record check
* FBI Fingerprint check
* Social and Health Services Check

I believe this is an important bill to pass, because we as a state are spending funds on Department of Licensing personal who are blocked in doing their tasks (since mid 2006) and we prohibit law abiding and responsible people from simply possessing a firearm
I support your stance on reasonable public safety and sportsman rights and believe that you will support the bill to its passing this legislative season.

Sincerely,
____________

B_Schick

January 29, 2008, 05:27 PM

Hello Everyone,

You might want to check out House Bill 3148. It was heard in the House Judiciary Committee today (1/29) and it seemed to be well received. We’ll see what happens in executive session. To me, it looks like a rewritten version of HB-1011.

Best regards,
Bob

NewbieShooter

January 30, 2008, 05:36 PM

The bill history is here :

http://apps.leg.wa.gov/billinfo/summary.aspx?year=2007&bill=1011

user3214

January 30, 2008, 06:07 PM

Here is the video of the discussion
http://www.tvw.org/media/mediaplayer.cfm?evid=2008010207&TYPE=V&CFID=2526495&CFTOKEN=cf8ddc404a695db8-7EACF082-3048-349E-4E02442189A650B9&bhcp=1

Starts at 24min

B_Schick

January 31, 2008, 06:56 PM

The House Judiciary Committee has HB-3148 on the executive session schedule for 02/05/08. We'll see what happens.

MD_Willington

February 1, 2008, 01:15 AM

The bill continuously mentions "non immigrant alien"...

does this help ME an IMMIGRANT alien??

WA State is such a PITA sometimes!

user3214

February 1, 2008, 01:31 AM

If this bill passes the AFL requirement woule be for non-immigrant aliens only. As a permanent resident, just like in the rest of the USA, you wouldn't need a license

NewbieShooter

February 1, 2008, 03:00 PM

ohh is it ? but wouldn't a non-immigrant who doesn't have a green card is called a "resident" in a state if he lives there for more than 180 days? I read it somewhere.

MD_Willington

February 1, 2008, 10:38 PM

Yes you can be a resident non-immigrant alien in WA State, that was me and my wife from 2000 to adjusted status in about Nov 2004...

Hopefully it means that a LPR "Green Card Holder" doesn't have to get the retarded license...

Sorry I'm a bit PO's ATM... we've been snowed in for the last 3 days because the Highway is blocked!

I meant no disrespect to any poster above!!

NewbieShooter

February 2, 2008, 01:30 AM

ohh ok.. yeah i got it. Lets see what happens on 5th of Jan.

user3214

February 2, 2008, 01:54 AM

I would say don't get your hopes up.
Last year bill 1011 started the same way with 'non-immigrant'

That was merged into 5456 and non-immigrant was again replaces with 'non-citizen' :barf:

MD_Willington

February 5, 2008, 06:01 PM

Sent the following just now:

The following message was sent to Representative Jim Moeller (D) of the 49th district.
TO: Representative Jim Moeller

FROM: Mr. Matthew Willington

BILL: 3148 (For)

SUBJECT: RE HB 3148 - 2007-08

MESSAGE: Hello Representative Moeller

My wife and I are legal permanent residents of the USA & WA State, obtained our "Green Cards" in 2005.

We have lived in WA State for almost 8 years now. I previously did have my AFL, but it has since expired and my firearms and components have been stored at a friends house since my AFL expired.

I recently saw that HB 3148 - 2007-08 was to be read today.

I am wondering how everything turned out with the reading of HB 3148 - 2007-08.

I am also wondering if the AFL is now no longer required for "Green Card" holders in WA State, or if HB 3148 - 2007-08 instead transfers the issuing authority for the AFL's to my local County Sheriff, and if it does transfer the authority to the Sheriff, when would my wife and I be able to obtain new AFLs?

Thank you for your time

RESPONSE: Mr. Willington has requested a response to this message.

MD_Willington

February 5, 2008, 07:30 PM

That was quick

Hi Matt, thank you for contacting us regarding this legislation. There
are several steps that a bill takes before it is brought to the floor
for a vote. HB 3148 was heard in committee and has now been voted out
of committee before the deadline. That is the first major hurdle.

Now the bill is in the Rules Committee. One of the committee members has
to request that the bill be moved out of Rules and onto the floor
calendar. We are hoping for the best and that we do not encounter any
problems moving the bill out of Rules. Once it is out of rules it is
listed on the House calendar and hopefully is voted out of the House
before the deadline which is Feb 19th. Then the whole process starts
all over again in the Senate.

If the bill should move through the Senate before session ends on March
14th then the bill becomes a law. Laws are in affect 90 days after the
Governor signs the bill. The governor signs most bills fairly soon after
they are passed.

The best thing to do is to track the bill on line, at
http://www.leg.wa.gov/House/

Thank you for your interest, I hope this explanation has not confused
you. Please feel free to contact me if you have any questions.

Team,
Currently in the same position, although still working on the Permanent Resident part of things - Just got my EAD, great to be able to work after six months of 'processing'. I'd been following HB 1011, pleasantly surprised to see some progress under another bill number. Have received correspondence from Rep. Moeller. Fingers crossed for some luck in the Rules Committee.
Cheers

MD_Willington

February 12, 2008, 10:36 AM

I emailed a bunch of people in the Rules committee... no replies yet...

Contacted my local guy, but he may be too busy with Agriculture ATM...

user3214

February 15, 2008, 08:40 PM

HB3148 is not moving; however the other bill with the 'non-citizen' phrase - SB5456 has just passed the senate.

MD_Willington

February 16, 2008, 11:43 PM

5456 is the one to push... It is a funded mandate IIRC...

MD_Willington

February 19, 2008, 05:24 PM

I just got off the phone with Representative Joe Schmick... He called me...

3148 was DEAD, but somehow it got pulled and it just PASSED, it is now headed to the Senate

NewbieShooter

February 20, 2008, 03:48 PM

so now 5456 and 3148 both are in the senate now ?

B_Schick

February 20, 2008, 10:18 PM

We’re half way there. I’m starting to think our writing and calling is starting to pay off. 5456 is now in the House Judiciary Committee and 3148 will end up in the Senate Judiciary Committee. It seems a bit strange to me that a bill can pass the chamber of origin unanimously, with no opposition in sight, and still be totally ignored by the opposite chamber. I think we should gently remind our legislators that both these bills passed committee and floor votes unanimously and therefore must be good legislation. It would be a shame to not complete the processes on something that everyone seems to think is a good idea.

By the way MD_Willington, I would like to thank you for charging ahead and for all the work you’ve done on this issue. I was extremely happy to have stumbled across this discussion thread and that I wasn’t the only one out there contacting legislators about this issue. Well done to a fellow Canadian!

MD_Willington

February 21, 2008, 07:26 PM

Naw, I just bugged enough people to get things started I guess...

3148 at this time may be charging ahead, but it is not a total solution, it would expect it to really go no where since it is not funded.

5456 leaves the existing funding in place...

If the best parts of 3148 & 5456 were combined, then we would have an iron clad solution...

MD

NewbieShooter

February 22, 2008, 03:09 PM

So what is the diff between "funded" and "non-funded"?

MD_Willington

February 22, 2008, 08:29 PM

I'll ask around and find out.

user3214

February 22, 2008, 11:54 PM

Acording to Goal the bills have to pass by Feb 29th in the new chamber - next week.
The schedule has been published and it looks like our bills are not in it.
Does this mean they won't pass this year either?
Who should we contact?

MD_Willington

February 25, 2008, 10:50 AM

No word back on the funding question...

user 3214, contact the owners of the bills...

user3214

February 26, 2008, 05:57 PM

I am calling the chairs in both comities. Please do the same
We don't have a lot of time (just a few days)

Call and politely tell the secretary that the bills are important and need to be heard this session
http://www.leg.wa.gov/House/lantz

http://www.leg.wa.gov/senate/kline/

Polishrifleman

February 26, 2008, 06:33 PM

User, can you post a link to the schedule? Along with the alien bill I am interested in following the ammo serialization bill and the last I saw of it was it was out to judiciary and I would be interested to see where it is at.

Thanks

user3214

February 26, 2008, 06:56 PM

Here is the ser. bill: http://apps.leg.wa.gov/billinfo/summary.aspx?bill=3359&year=2007

Possible executive session on bills heard in committee. Other business.

NewWAstate

February 27, 2008, 04:54 PM

I too emailed my Rep / Senator and the heads of the committee's. Lets hope we get a positive result! Good to see it has made the public hearing agenda.
Cheers
Gareth

MD_Willington

February 27, 2008, 07:50 PM

Fingers crossed...

HB3148
Feb 27 Scheduled for public hearing in the Senate Committee on Judiciary at 4:30 PM. (Subject to change)

NewbieShooter

February 29, 2008, 05:53 PM

Currently it says

Feb 29 Executive action taken in the Senate Committee on Judiciary at 9:00 AM

so what does this mean ?

user3214

February 29, 2008, 06:06 PM

That was the first reading of the bill – which passed.
To become a law the bill has to pass two more readings.
Then it needs to be signed by the chair of each chamber (Senate, House).
Then it gets signed by the Governor.

If all this happens successfully the bill becomes a law right away, because of the emergency clause in the bill.

NewWAstate

February 29, 2008, 08:16 PM

Feb 29 Executive action taken in the Senate Committee on Judiciary at 9:00 AM.
JUD - Majority; do pass.

Kilted_scot

February 29, 2008, 10:02 PM

IN THE SENATE
Feb 21 First reading, referred to Judiciary.
Feb 27 Public hearing in the Senate Committee on Judiciary at 4:30 PM.
Feb 29 Executive action taken in the Senate Committee on Judiciary at 9:00 AM.
JUD - Majority; do pass.
Passed to Rules Committee for second reading.

February 29, 2008 Last day to read in committee reports from opposite house, except House fiscal committees and Senate Ways & Means and Transportation committees.
March 3, 2008 Last day to read in opposite house committee reports from House fiscal committees and Senate Ways & Means and Transportation committees.
March 7, 2008 Last day to consider opposite house bills (5 p.m.) (except initiatives and alternatives to initiatives, budgets and matters necessary to implement budgets, differences between the houses, and matters incident to the interim and closing of the session).*
March 13, 2008 Last day allowed for regular session under state constitution.

So what are the chances this will pass this year? It sure looks good. We will know soon enough. How can I help? Who do I call/write?

B_Schick

March 2, 2008, 02:34 PM

Batman,
Chances for passing 3148 are pretty good. The bill is in the Senate Rules Committee right now. Contact any member of the committee and urge their support. Here's a link to the list of members:

http://www.leg.wa.gov/Senate/Committees/RULE/members.htm

Our best bet though is to contact Senator Adam Kline. He stood and spoke in support of Senator Morton's bill SB-5456 when it was on the senate floor. 5456 was the other bill that we were supporting. Kline is the Senate Judiciary Committee chairman and during the hearing and executive session for 3148, he sounded very supportive.

Diamondback6

March 4, 2008, 08:43 AM

BEWARE. Kline's usually a Grabber, if he wants to pass this thing there's a good chance he has a "gut-'n'-stuff" in mind...

batman

March 4, 2008, 09:21 AM

Not sure how fast the update the bill information online, but there is no word on it yet. My understanding per another poster here is that today was the last day for the bill to make it out of the senate. Doesn't look like anything happened, but then again, it could just be they are slow at updating the site.

user3214

March 4, 2008, 09:46 AM

Again the bill isn't getting attention.
Previously the bill was heard with the following bills. (below)
Some of the bills below already are up for a second reading (updated today the 3rd)
such as http://apps.leg.wa.gov/billinfo/summary.aspx?bill=1143&year=2008

HB 3148 did have a hearing in the Senate just last night. They have until Friday at 5:00 to pass it out on Executive Session.

SB 5456 is sitting in House Judiciary and did not receive even a hearing yet. Looks like that one may be in trouble. The Chair of the House Judiciary Committee is Representative Pat Lantz and she decides what to hear and/or kill.

FYI
Joe

Hi Joe.

Looks like 3148 & 5456 have "Stalled" in Judiciary and are not scheduled for a public hearing.

Just wondering if you've heard anything different.

Thank you for your time!

MD

I have
bugged Pat Lantz and asked for a response, I have received NONE...

Kilted_scot

March 4, 2008, 01:48 PM

SB 5456 Does not appear on the latest cutoff list and appears to be dead
http://www.leg.wa.gov/documents/lic/...rts/cutoff.pdf

I have emailed Senators Kline, Pflug and Hewitt regarding support for 3148.

user3214

March 4, 2008, 04:47 PM

Yes 5456 is dead.
The only hope is 3148 and we need to work on getting it out of the Rules Committee.

user3214

March 4, 2008, 04:52 PM

Rules Committee decides if a bill will be scheduled for a hearing we need to contact them and let them know that the bill is important
Here is their site: http://www1.leg.wa.gov/senate/committees/rule
And the members are: http://www1.leg.wa.gov/Senate/Committees/RULE/members.htm

There was a rules meeting today at 1:15 and it looks like the bill wasn't addressed.

The due date for the bill to pass is this Friday otherwise it's dead

Diamondback6

March 5, 2008, 11:49 PM

Rules also reads like a Who's Who of WA Grabbers, IIRC.

MD_Willington

March 5, 2008, 11:56 PM

Matt,
The bill died in Judiciary. Didn't even receive a hearing. The bill is dead for this session.
Joe

!@##!$#!!@#@!$#!#

When is the next session? 2009/2010...

At this point it's looking like Idaho will be where my new home is....

user3214

March 6, 2008, 12:21 AM

That's probably for 5456.

3148 is in Rules, and could still get passed. I just got a letter from Rep. Moeller. He said to contact your representative and ask him/her to speak with Senate Rules members in favour of the bill.

MD_Willington

March 6, 2008, 01:27 AM

Joe is my rep...

user3214

March 6, 2008, 03:05 PM

It looks like 3148 will be heard in Senate Rules today, there still is a tiny hope.

MD_Willington

March 6, 2008, 04:04 PM

Jeez...

I emailed and bugged everyone I could think of...

I emailed them this, I put a descrimination slant to the email... you know because they hate being accused of descrimination....:D

My wife and I have legally resided in WA State for 8 years now.

There are many other legal permanent residents in the same situation as us too, legal, law abiding permanent residents, many of which are close to becoming American citizens.

Many of us have considered moving elsewhere to other States due to descrimination, we would not be permanent residents of the USA if we had not already gone through Federal background checks via FBI/DHS etcetera, the same kinds of Federal background checks that would allow us to have an AFL in the first place if an agency could provide us with an AFL, someone like our County Sherriffs Office. Or WA State could do as many other States already do, and drop the AFL licensing for LPRs entirely, by the way, LPR would be a Legal Permanent Resident aka "Green Card Holder".

It seems somewhat ridiculous and a waste of everyones time and money for all of us LPRs to have to jump through even more hoops because we chose WA State as our State of residence, only to be discriminated against.

HB 3148 is an important bill for many legal permanent residents residing in Washington State.

I would like to ask that you would consider scheduling a hearing for HB 3148 so that we may not be discriminated against.

Thank you for your time.

MD

NewbieShooter

March 6, 2008, 05:06 PM

That is a strong email MD, lets hope for the best.

Kilted_scot

March 6, 2008, 05:24 PM

Well at least it is still alive....for now.

IN THE SENATE
Feb 21 First reading, referred to Judiciary.
Feb 27 Public hearing in the Senate Committee on Judiciary at 4:30 PM.
Feb 29 Executive action taken in the Senate Committee on Judiciary at 9:00 AM.
JUD - Majority; do pass.
Passed to Rules Committee for second reading.
Mar 6 Placed on second reading by Rules Committee.

Tomorrow is the last day and all bills must pass, so we need to contact Senator Schoesler to thank him and to urge him to continue to support the bill.

And hopefully the bill finally passes.

MD_Willington

March 6, 2008, 09:41 PM

I have been in contact with Mark, or at least his office liaison too on the issue...

Just emailed him and Joe !

batman

March 6, 2008, 10:43 PM

I will call Mark and Joe's offices in the morning as well as tonight. I will also send emails using the link MD Willington posted to urge their support.

The more of us are calling and emailing the more of a chance this thing has to pass. Let's not give up now, tomorrow is the last day otherwise we are out of luck for another year.

So please call and email the people listed and urge their support tomorrow.

MD_Willington

March 7, 2008, 12:07 AM

Joe emailed me back just now...

Dear Matt,

I wanted to update you on the status of ESHB 3148 the firearm license bill in which you are interested.

The bill did pass the House and the Senate Committee.

I voted in support of the bill when it was before me.

It is just put onto the Senate Calendar today from the Senate Rules Committee.

The bill needs to pass out of the Senate by Friday, March 7th for it to remain alive.

ESSB 5456 did not pass out of the House Judiciary Committee. The chair refused to hear the bill.

I hope this information is helpful. Per your request, I'll keep you posted.

Joe Schmick

State Representative

Diamondback6

March 7, 2008, 12:10 AM

I'm seeing a solution: a targeted campaign to unseat Pam Lantz, and hopefully enough others to shake up committee chairmanships.

How do we start planning this one?

user3214

March 7, 2008, 01:46 AM

Yes we need to do this final push.

There are many bills waiting for a hearing this last day (Friday) so we need to have our voices heard.

MD_Willington

March 7, 2008, 11:30 AM

EVERY WASHINGTON STATE RESIDENT THAT IS READING THIS

Please email everyone on this list right now and ask them to support ESHB 3148.

For all legal residents, green card holders etcetera, please contact or email everyone on the list and tell them you do not want to be discriminated against like I did.

from Joe Waldon

Under RCW 9.41.170, resident aliens residing in Washington must acquire
an Alien Firearms License (AFL) before being allowed to possess a
firearm. Washington is one of only a couple of states that still retain
this holdover from “immigrant Jim Crow” days, despite the fact that
resident aliens already must pass a background check before acquiring
resident alien status. Possession of a firearm by a resident alien,
without an AFL, is a felony.

Dear Senator

Please support ESHB 3148 and ask that it come up for a vote today. ESHB
3148 corrects a technical glitch that places hundreds of Washington
residents at felony risk. The bill passed unanimously from both the
House of Representatives and the Senate Judiciary Committee. Vote “AYE”
on ESHB 3148 TODAY.

The Legislative Hotline number is 1-800-562-6000

If you don't know what "Jim Crow" laws are.. they were mainly disciminatory laws against African Americans, but the term can also be applied to any group that is discriminated against, read here:

Watching this unfold with increasing frustration. I'm also a legal permanent resident who won't be eligible for citizenship until 2010. Very recently introduced to target shooting and interested in keeping it up. Can't see myself renting from the range each time so eventually I'd like to have my own pistol. I took a look at the U.S. Citizen and Immigration Services website where it states:

"Rights
As a Permanent Resident you have most of the rights of a United States Citizen but there are some exceptions.

Rights
To live permanently in the United States provided you do not commit any actions that would make you removable (deportable) under the immigration law (section 237, Immigration and Nationality Act).
To be employed in the United States at any legal work of your qualification and choosing.
To be protected by all of the laws of the United States, your state of residence and local jurisdictions.
To vote in local elections where United States Citizenship is not required.

Exceptions
Some jobs will be limited to United States Citizens because of security concerns.
You may not vote in elections limited to United States Citizens."

So just where do we stand legally? What did all those legal permanent residents do with their guns when their licenses expired? Are they now all felons?

user3214

March 10, 2008, 02:31 AM

Yes in WA you would be if you keep any firearm :(

BTW Let's get together and file a lawsuit to try to resolve this issue.

user3214

March 10, 2008, 02:34 AM

BTW the last date is March 13th.
Technically the bill could still be considered even though that’s unlikely.

Probably we could still contact someone that could help the bill this session

MD_Willington

March 10, 2008, 03:23 AM

Yep keep bugging the people in the email lists... and your local rep.

Contact Senator Mark Schoeslers office, his liaison (not sure if that is the right term) will probably email you back, IIRC her name is Krista

What did people do with their firearms.. Well, mine are stored at a very good friends house.

Firepower!

March 10, 2008, 05:08 AM

Well I lived in the US for close to 11 years I did not Aliens could have a gun. Personally I think it is a very sensitive issue since every country has different polices. But if I knew I could own one I would at get something to target practice alot before coming back home and dispose the gun since I am sure I would not have been able to bring it with me, since I cant even order a laser sight for G19 from US!

Kilted_scot

March 10, 2008, 12:12 PM

Best plan that I could come up with was to transfer ownership of my gun to my wife using the transfer form on the DOL's website.

For those of you shooting at a range. The RCW makes it a felony to possess a handgun. Might be interesting to see if police would consider you to "possess a gun" if you are standing shooting !

user3214

March 10, 2008, 03:52 PM

I just got off the phone - Lisa Brown is the senate majority leader, and is the one who could bring the bill for a reading.

I just called her office and ask them to consider the bill. Please do the same. I will also email her.

MD_Willington

March 10, 2008, 04:53 PM

Americans who visit Canada can get similar licenses...

http://www.cfc-cafc.gc.ca/factsheets/visitin_e.asp

http://www.cfc-cafc.gc.ca/factsheets/moving_e.asp

I emailed her, I'm going to call her office.

NewWAstate

March 10, 2008, 06:25 PM

Even in New Zealand! And they aren't too pro-gun there.
http://www.police.govt.nz/service/firearms/

I'm on the email mission. After Wednesday I guess I'll buy a bow for this hunting season. Not giving up yet!

user3214

March 10, 2008, 06:33 PM

Currently it's at
Mar 10 Senate Rules "X" file.

I don't know what that means

user3214

March 10, 2008, 06:40 PM

X File means – the bill is no longer for consideration because it’s fundamentally wrong, would take too much time ……
That doesn’t mean the bill is dead though

user3214

March 10, 2008, 06:53 PM

I phoned DOL they said they will contact Senator Brown as well.

MD_Willington

March 10, 2008, 09:05 PM

Good call...

DOL is kind of stuck too, since they are in charge of issuing but are not allowed to..

Now if they could change their policy to have my Sheriff run the check and he could say Y or N to them... then that would solve this mess!

It would be as easy as getting a signed official document from my Sheriff.. I'll pay to have that piece of paper priority shipped to the DOL firearms desk myself !!

user3214

March 10, 2008, 11:14 PM

I asked that a while ago and DOL said it still wouldn't work because they aren't allowed to get such an answer - as "yes" he can possess or "no" he can't possess.

But it’s worth a try call the DOL and ask them.

Kilted_scot

March 11, 2008, 02:41 AM

From the Senate rules website
http://www.leg.wa.gov/Senate/Committees/RULE/rules+shorthand+guide.htm

After certain cut-off dates, as a house-keeping measure the Senate Rules Committee sometimes places bills no longer eligible for consideration in the “X-File”. This removes them from calendars, and the daily status sheet, keeping those lists from becoming too long and unwieldy. They usually remain in the X-File until the end of the biennium.

agjerde

March 14, 2008, 05:00 PM

The bill overview now says:

Mar 13 By resolution, returned to House Rules Committee for third reading.

When will that be? Does the bill still have a chance?

NewbieShooter

March 14, 2008, 05:17 PM

i don't think so, the session for this year is over i guess. This bill will be taken up in the next session which is next year.

user3214

March 16, 2008, 12:57 AM

I believe the Governor could call a session.
If that’s true we could contact the Governor and see what happens

MD_Willington

March 16, 2008, 02:58 AM

Worth a try..

MD_Willington

March 23, 2008, 10:52 PM

Well we could all sue the State, ever one of us legal permanent residents would need to sign onto this though...

Steely

March 24, 2008, 12:40 AM

Just read through this whole posting. Nail biting stuff.
I am also a permanent resident in WA wanting this to pass.
3 weeks ago I purchased a 22 semi auto rifle through a large outdoor retailer. Then 1 week ago I tried to purchase another at another large retailer, but this time was refused. I was told all the legal stuff you all know, we were both shocked. They contacted the DOL to get confirmation and then contacted the store that sold the first rifle to me. They were very sorry and sympathetic.
I called the DOL and then the original store, and told them I would return all the firearm items I had purchased. I was given a refund and compensation for their mistake.
Im now looking into helping getting it legal again to own a firearm.
Sooo what next?
I'm in.
Tim

agjerde

March 24, 2008, 12:50 PM

I'm in too. This has been going on for far too long. Let's sue.

robertbank

March 24, 2008, 04:35 PM

"I wouldn't expect to go live in Mexico or Canada or the UK or anywhere for that matter and think all that is available to or for the citizens of that country would be available for me a alien, why should all of you expect that here?

Why not? When you come to Canada you, as an individual are protected by our laws and are subject to them. You also are protected by our Charter of Rights & Freedoms. In addition your passport ensures your right to contact the US Embassy if you are arested. Reverse this statement and all of the above applies to me when travelling in the US,

Meet the residency requirements and you would enjoy the benefits of Health Care, your children would attend our schools etc.

As stupid as our gun laws are we do allow aliens (Includes folks from the US) to take the Canadian Firearms Course and upon sucessful completion own and possess firearms.

I see the Washington State laws is being primarily anti-gun with some good old fashion paranoia thrown in. I certainly don't see it as anti-Canadian,

The Swedes are using my local ski hill back home for their Winter Olympic training, Including the Biathlon Range...

user3214

March 24, 2008, 08:37 PM

I agree let's sue.
Anyone have any information of how to file the lawsuit. We could also get free help from a local university’s law program.

MD_Willington

March 24, 2008, 09:11 PM

I'm also in email contact with someone in Idaho that has the same idea, SAF was going to have him stand in court as a witness.

Steely

March 25, 2008, 12:12 AM

Here is a link to a page I made with a pdf file showing another case where a Brit sued the Kentucky state over the CCDW license (carry a concealed deadly weapon) and he won. Not the same as ours but similar.

http://www.fairpoint.net/~steely/gun/Say%20v%20Adams%20opinion.pdf

Tim

Steely

March 25, 2008, 01:35 AM

Also I believe that Washington's State Constitution is overruled by the United States Constitution. Where the US Constitution states "Amendment II
A well regulated militia, being necessary to the security of a free state,the right of the people to keep and bear arms, shall not be infringed." http://www.law.cornell.edu/constitution/constitution.billofrights.html#amendmentii

MD_Willington

March 26, 2008, 02:47 PM

Well, we're not considered "people" until we become a citizen...

MD_Willington

March 28, 2008, 10:23 PM

Well I joined the SAF this week...

www.saf.org

I'm going to see if they can help.

daorhgih

March 29, 2008, 06:23 PM

Present company excepted.
"Unalienable human rights know no border" is a high-and-mighty-sounding phrase, which ends where your unalienable right to swing your fist conflicts with my nose, or where an illegal alien just "out for a stroll" stumbles upon the U.S./Mex. border and drops in as a "guest" for a few months. (I said "present company excepted. and meant it.) Anyone who has done all of the leg-work and back-work aimed at becoming a bon fide citizen should have similar opportunites as "real Americans" (whatever those are!) But a felony is gonna be hard to cover. Don't U.S. felons give up the right to vote, and to own firearms of any kind? But the law needs to be modified to accomodate all of us, or else sooner or later it will be used to disarm ALL of us. All of us are in the boat together.

MD_Willington

March 30, 2008, 02:37 AM

Well I find it ridiculous, I can move 5 minutes down the road into Idaho and magically the problem disappears...

NewbieShooter

March 30, 2008, 01:45 PM

so MD any "Ray of Hope" from the SAF yet?

MD_Willington

March 31, 2008, 02:05 PM

I haven't had a chance to call anyone yet... I'm working 50+ hours a week ATM, with a wife & 3 sick kids at home...

user3214

April 1, 2008, 02:23 AM

I called them approximately one year ago about this issue.

SAF didn’t seem interested in the issue or interested in helping. Hopefully you have better luck.

PacWest

April 3, 2008, 01:16 AM

Hi Guys,

I am here to day because I went to purchase a firearm today and after 2 months of researching the arm I wanted and being told "are you a WA resident?" "yes". "good-ok". I found out about this Alien Firearm License stuff. I was like great more money and paperwork BS.

Now after going to the DOL site and finding out that it is not possible to get one because of some inability for the authorities to get records :banghead:. I am now like really upset.

Guys, I will be calling around tomorrow to find out any info that I can and I will be working on this issue. I have a little bit of a reasonable understanding about laws or should I state "statutes". And believe me I will be kicking all the rocks over on this one. Sure we could try to sue the state, but the question is how are you going to win and on what technicality can you beat them on.

I wish I new about this earlier. After reading all the previous posts and the implications, I am like very disappointed that I was not able to pitch in and help. But I am here now so I will try to double time it all the way.

If anyone has any info to bring me up to speed in this issue that would be great. There has to be away around this.

user3214

April 3, 2008, 02:27 AM

There are a few ways to challenge the current laws:
1. Challenge under 2nd amendment – the hardest to do
2. Challenge under 14th amendment and equal protection laws – easier to do
3. Challenge the section of the law which is not enforceable: - easiest to do
(b) Before issuing an alien firearm license under subsection (1) of this section or this subsection (2), the director of licensing shall ask the local law enforcement agency of the jurisdiction in which the alien resides to complete a background and fingerprint check to determine the alien's eligibility under RCW 9.41.040 to own, possess, or control a firearm. The law enforcement agency shall complete a background check within thirty days after the request, unless the alien does not have a valid Washington driver's license or Washington state identification card. In the latter case, the law enforcement agency shall complete the background check within sixty days after the request.

Also it’s worth contacting local universities as they have programs where they help out for free.

Besides, Idaho is closer to me... and I'm not all that sure my wife wants to move..

carnaby

April 3, 2008, 10:43 PM

I know this sucks. My wife is Canadian and this is a royal PITA. She's eligible for citizenship now, but isn't particularly motivated. One of these days...

MD_Willington

April 4, 2008, 01:51 AM

If I was eligible I'd have my butt up in Spokane at the next swear in !!

My employer will even pay for me to become a citizen!

allserene

April 6, 2008, 10:59 AM

I am a U.K. national married to a U.S. Citizen. I have a 10 year unconditional green card and I pay U.S. taxes on my wordwide income. I was the Secretary of a target rifle cub in the U.K. for 14 years.
We are moving from Florida to Washington State in 3 weeks for my wife's new job. She has been trying to get a job and working on it 10 hours per day, 7 days a week for 6 months. I am retired

Here in Florida I am totally equal to my wife apart from voting.

It seems that Washington will put me into an underclass who have different rights to others. My hobby will no longer be allowed.

I had more than a year of intense scrutiny for my green card. I was weighed, fingerprinted, photographed, had my police records scrutinized, went to the U.S Embassy in London for grilling, was stripped and poked around for the Embassy medical and had an FBI check to complete.

I can't even have a single shot .22 target rifle in Washington

I would fight for the rights of any American based in the UK if anyone ever proposed discrimination on anything

These Jim Crow laws are wrong.

I have to come to Washington and be a second class human for years until I get citizenship - is this really America ? Is this really what the revolution and the constitution were all about ?

One state out of 50 does this

armedandsafe

April 6, 2008, 03:46 PM

Allserene,

Contact me when you get to Washington, please.

I can't help but comment on the contrast between your handle and the tone of your post. It just struck me as amusing, especially as I agree wholeheartedly with your statements. :D

Pops

allserene

April 6, 2008, 06:49 PM

Will do !
Yes I used to be allserene - now I am allfuming... we drove down the mountain to Wenatchee and I got pulled by the cops using a plane . Welcome to Wenatchee - $113 for 70mph in a 60 -----20 miles from the nearest grizzly. I mentioned it to the waitress next morning and she said she got one same day april 1st ! Then I went to see a realtor in Wenatchee - he had moved from San fransisco and he was coming down the same stretch (we both swear there are no speed markers for miles) and he got a ticket too ! Seems speed tickets are instead of state income tax and they hand em out like confetti
I went to the court building to pay the fine an hour after I got the ticket and an Indian lady was being frog-marched down the street in leg irons and handcuffs with a chain between them. It was like watching charles dickens film of hundreds of years ago. I was genuinely shocked though I spent 6 years as police officer in my twenties. So I got a really bad impression of Washington day 1 and now I read that people want to stamp ALIEN on my driver's license (just a proposal right now) and also treat me like a pre civil war non -citizen slave as far as having a .22 pop gun is concerned ! I will get a felony conviction, jail, and get deported if I pick up a gun to look at it

My wife is really upset because she needs this job in Washington and she knows I have grave doubts now, and my first impressions are that it's a scary place with scary laws and overbearing policing

We will go to live there because we must, but I am going to push the politicians HARD to make this place more humane and tolerant starting with discrimination against genuine Green Card holders who have already been vetted down to the last tiny detail of who they are and what they are.

Some people say accept a new place's rules or don't go - same people who say black people should accept sitting at the back of the bus or walk. I reject that - I am coming to Washington and I intend to take my place as a fully paid up human being of the only class of human in the USA - which is first class, and to speak my piece.

OJ is ok but I am not ! phew, think I will have a beer and a cold shower.

eliphalet

April 6, 2008, 09:20 PM

MD, move East, Idaho will be glad to have you.

Alleerene, back home in the UK is always a option, I do think you have the freedom to go back if it is that bad here in America.

allserene

April 6, 2008, 09:24 PM

A perfect example - I want to change the gun laws to be fairer to all while keeping people safe

If the reaction is 'you are an outsider-go home' then there will be no progress with anything including gun laws

America is a nation of immigrants who wanted to constantly change things for the better so I don't apologise for being one of those

I don't intend to spend the first few years as 'underclass' with less human rights, simply because of the color of my passport. I am a legal permanent resident with the same human rights as a citizen -
see the 14th amendment which extends legal rights to all, citizen or not

Anyone who has an interest in shooting and keeping the laws fair should bond together and not exclude later comers to the State

eliphalet

April 6, 2008, 10:09 PM

I don't intend to spend the first few years as 'underclass' with less human rightsFine, I really don't have a problem with that.
Work like MD then, do like he has been doing. I am not big "alien" fan but he has earned my admiration, we need citizens like he will become, not grip about your host like post 190, 192. That will, I guarantee you, not win friends and influence folks or win you any sympathy either.
That attitude will earn you a " Oh well, so what, ya don't like it go home" and thats about all.

allserene

April 7, 2008, 10:19 AM

Well unless you are American Indian, you come from a family of Aliens yourself - so not being an Alien fan is not being a fan of your own family.
I know what you mean though and people want newcomers to be subservient - a bit like a new boy in school.

When I was in the rifle club, we got a new member who didnt like the way anything was. The club had been formed in the First world war (1914 -1918), and was used in the second war (1939-1945). It was musty dusty and stayed the same for 40 years. He got cracking and organised a whole new shooting range with grants from various bodies and fund raising activities etc. Instead of shooting in some old stables, we ended up with a fantastic new range just outside town. We made him president within 6 months of him joining the club. The energy and new ideas of newcomers can be really beneficial.

Your image of an 'alien' seems to be a shady criminal who wont pay taxes and who messes things up for everyone. The people who are affected by the 'alien firearms license' problem are fully documented and FBI checked already and far more valuable to American society than many American citizens that you and I could name.

There are only about 700 in Washington State but I reckon it would be better for American shooters to form an alliance with them rather than telling them to get back home. We hang together or hang separately. Once the bandwagon of restricting legitimate shooters is rolling, it won't stop with respectable, documented, FBI approved aliens - they will take your guns too.

eliphalet

April 7, 2008, 12:34 PM

Your image of an 'alien'
Thanks for informing me how I think.
I don't "hang" with you simple as that, g-day.

allserene

April 7, 2008, 01:24 PM

ok good day Eliphalet, as a fellow shooter I wish you the best whether you welcome me to your Country or not ... As my wife is a U.S. Citizen, perhaps she will will buy a gun and let me look at it - so long as I don't touch it. I become a citizen in 2.5 years - Alan

PacWest

April 8, 2008, 01:29 AM

I tried to apply today for the AFL and they would not accept my application. I thought I would take a form I was able to print from my local police dept website and see what happens.

I had no luck, but the woman at the window was very supportive and said it was wrong and suggested that I pursue it with the DOL further. She said that someone has to.

So I am documenting everything and will continue to pursue this issue, like the lady said, "someone has to". I know I am not the only one. I believe we need to all continue, because the squeaky wheel gets the grease.

Hey user3214 thanks for your input too. I agree with you, pick the battles you can win.

allserene

April 8, 2008, 09:05 AM

I am in correspondence with representative Jim Moeller and others who says the legislation to change this so that the FBI problem can be satisfied was unopposed, but ran out of time in the session. Next session is a long way off, but given a time window in the legislature, this can be fixed. Seems there is good will there, but not enough people affected to get sufficient attention.

Minorities suffer under all systems so it is not the fault of democracy

Looks like Green Card holders will be forbidden for a year at least.

The illegals are not affected - they have their illegal firearms still

MD_Willington

April 8, 2008, 11:35 AM

I figure they did not oppose it since they knew they would never get to it. Also with the election for Governor for WA state coming up, there probably will not be any focus on the issue, I'm hoping there will be some focus on it however.

At this point in time since I am so close to Idaho, I only shoot in Idaho, but I haven't done any of that for quite some time now...

NewbieShooter

April 9, 2008, 03:51 PM

so MD do we also need an AFL to rent a gun in an indoor range and shoot ?

MD_Willington

April 9, 2008, 04:10 PM

Not sure newbie..

We'd probably get in deep poop here in WA State.. you know, since it is a compelling public safety issue.. BARF!

I've only done that in Idaho.

I know that foreign visitors don't get any flak when they go to other States and head to an indoor range. So I cannot see why we would get in trouble for the same thing a non immigrant alien can do in another State...

I just don't do it in WA.

I'm no legal expert, but I've often wondered about this:

(4) This section shall not apply to Canadian citizens resident in a province which has an enactment or public policy providing substantially similar privilege to residents of the state of Washington and who are carrying or possessing weapons for the purpose of using them in the hunting of game while such persons are in the act of hunting, or while on a hunting trip, or while such persons are competing in a bona fide trap or skeet shoot or any other organized contest where rifles, pistols, or shotguns are used. Nothing in this section shall be construed to allow aliens to hunt or fish in this state without first having obtained a regular hunting or fishing license.

I'm from BC Canada, any American can get the same firearms license that is available to Canadians if they want to.

Now if my local club invited me to come shoot, would this be my loophole? or if a club in my area was formed and I had an official invite from them would that also be a loophole?

:confused:

user3214

April 10, 2008, 02:45 AM

The law states ‘resident in a province’ so if you can provide that you have BC residence and you were invited or have hunting license you shouldn’t have any problems. By that I mean ‘health care card’, BC driver’s license or Canadian tax return.

I asked a few policemen about the issue (Canadian living here in WA). Some said if you are a Canadian you’re allowed and you wouldn’t have a problem.
Others said they ‘are just looking for probable cause’ and will confiscate the gun until it’s found out if it’s legal or not (by supervisors, or DA).

There is a loophole if you could call it that in the 1st paragraph of the law - (1) It is a class C felony for any person who is not a citizen of the United States to carry or possess any firearm.
If you have a firearm in your garage or somewhere where it’s not readily accessible, you are not in possession of the firearm.

MD_Willington

April 10, 2008, 01:59 PM

A State felony or a Federal felony...

Remember other States have no problem with LPRs having firearms...

I could give them a copy of my property tax assessment for my house in BC, a copy of my drivers license, a copy of my birth certificate, a copy of my passport etcetera...

I'll see if I can have a chat with my Sheriff next time I see him at kids fishing camp, he's usually there... at least I can go fishing with my kids.

amw

April 10, 2008, 10:07 PM

I hesitantly broached the subject of legal permanent residents shooting at the range (with rented pistols of course since we can't have our own). The guy at Wade's assured me that it was okay do do so without an AFL. Apparently, it's not considered possession to shoot on their property. If however, I was to take the gun off their property then that would be possession and then I could be charged with a felony offense.

I also wanted to make a comment to those who feel that legal permanent residents should just shut up and become citizens. You're entitled to your opinions of course but here's the problem - Legal permanent residents were PREVIOUSLY able to own guns by obtaining an alien firearms license and would STILL be able to do so if it were not for a nonsensical bureaucratic situation. If the intention was to prevent non-citizens from owning guns then so be it - pass a law that actually states this. However, it seems we can own guns if we get our Alien Firearms License (AFL). Oh, except we can't get the AFL because the background check can't be completed for administrative reasons.

armedandsafe

April 11, 2008, 01:21 AM

Essentially, we now have a law that is unenforcible, because another law supercedes it. The question becomes one for the courts, as to whether the entire law is void or whether some of it is still enforcible. That is an unacceptable risk for an alien resident, in my opinion. So we wait for the legislature to change the law to allow these vetted persons to have the right to be treated as "persons" in the eyes of the law.

I'd rather see this special (mis)treatment of these people be completely eliminated. However, in the meantime, we will continue to work on the short term solution. Keep leaning on your hired hands in Olympia. Don't let it rest until session starts.

Pops

Gray Peterson

April 11, 2008, 02:01 AM

They had two years to fix this problem and the leadership in the Legislature slow-rolled us.

batman

April 12, 2008, 04:16 AM

I am not buying this whole thing. DOL does the same fingerprint and background check on security guards and their licensing remains unaffected.

Yet that of non citizens is and after 2 years they have yet to remedy the situation.

I don't think this has anything to do with FBI sharing criminal records with non LE personnel, because they share it with the DOL everyday for security guard licensing.

I think this has more to do with them not wanting non citizens to have guns. I feel for you guys.

user3214

April 13, 2008, 03:36 AM

MD,
This is a state law but still makes you a felon, which could prevent you from becoming a citizen. I think it’s not worth risking it.

To prove CA citizenship it’s best to provide a passport. To prove residency current BC driver’s license or tax form where you claimed yourself as resident or prove of 6 months per year living in Canada.

But there are still loopholes depending how the law is interpreted and the state could prosecute you.

Here is a worst case scenario (hypothetical): say you use a weapon for self defense at night. The law at the moment states you could use the weapons for sporting/hunting only. This means you committed a felony and since someone died while you were committing a felony – you are in huge trouble.

(I am not a lawyer – but this is what I understand of the law)

NewbieShooter

April 13, 2008, 12:57 PM

I am not buying this whole thing. DOL does the same fingerprint and background check on security guards and their licensing remains unaffected.

Yet that of non citizens is and after 2 years they have yet to remedy the situation.

I don't think this has anything to do with FBI sharing criminal records with non LE personnel, because they share it with the DOL everyday for security guard licensing.

I think this has more to do with them not wanting non citizens to have guns. I feel for you guys.

Hi Batman, i was going through the DOL and even security guards who are not citizens should have an alien firearm's license in order to get an armed security guard license so i guess i don't see any loophole here.

So their current situation right now might be, "you can become an armed security guard only if you are a citizen (since you cannot have an AFL right now if you are a non-citizen)"

you can see the info here

http://www.dol.wa.gov/business/securityguards/sggetarmed.html

Thanks.

MD_Willington

April 14, 2008, 02:56 PM

I have people emailing me now regarding this, wish they would just join here and ask in this topic.

eliphalet

April 14, 2008, 06:03 PM

MD,
Your just too good at it. Maybe you otta run for office once you get your citizenship.

MD_Willington

April 14, 2008, 07:19 PM

LOL.. thanks...

I guess I could do it in my spare time... well if I had any that is..!

NewbieShooter

April 15, 2008, 03:34 PM

well if MD runs for office then he will have my vote again and again... offcourse after i become the citizen hehe LOL.

MD_Willington

April 18, 2008, 02:50 PM

Sent an informal email to SAF today... lets see what I get back.

MD_Willington

April 23, 2008, 01:12 PM

No reply yet..

I'll see if I can call them...

allserene

April 24, 2008, 02:10 PM

ok shooting people I have arrived in Washington State from florida 24 hours ago and I will be setting up home for a few days and then getting behind you in trying to fix this - I got emails from the Washington legislators I contacted and they said there was no opposition but no time to pass it last session...(next session next year) I wonder if a one liner for green card holders would be easy to pass - you know, exempting green card holders which would eliminate 90% ? of the problem. Green card holders are already individually vetted by FBI as part of the process so no need to duplicate... nice quail here outside my door but i just want to shoot targets nowadays - my blood lust has gone since my own mortalitly became an issue - alan

MD_Willington

April 25, 2008, 11:10 AM

You can hunt without an AFL... I've looked at that as a loop hole.. I have shot on the range that the local Hunter Safety class uses, I know the person that runs the course...

It would definitely be nice if they dropped the AFL rec for Green Card holders...

NewbieShooter

April 25, 2008, 02:34 PM

Actually they should drop the AFL rec for everybody, coz today, green card takes at least 6 yrs and it will be a very long wait time who is half way in the process but not complete.

batman

April 26, 2008, 01:25 PM

Hi Batman, i was going through the DOL and even security guards who are not citizens should have an alien firearm's license in order to get an armed security guard license so i guess i don't see any loophole here.

So their current situation right now might be, "you can become an armed security guard only if you are a citizen (since you cannot have an AFL right now if you are a non-citizen)"

you can see the info here

http://www.dol.wa.gov/business/secur...ggetarmed.html

Thanks.

That's not what I am talking about. Almost all security guards in WA state have to be licensed. Unarmed SG's have to go through the same finger print and background checks for their unarmed guard license that non citizens have to for the AFL, and both licences are processed by the DOL, yet only the AFL process is affected?

I think this is a political way for them to discriminate against non citizens. Time for the media to get involved, this is fishy.

allserene

April 26, 2008, 07:14 PM

Hum I don't know about these loopholes - I mean the penalty is a felony conviction and jail and then deportation - With that hanging over me, I would have to be very,very sure before I even touched a .22 single shot rifle on a rifle range or anywhere else - it just isn't worth it

Yes I suppose I was being selfish saying that green card holders are already FBI checked and therefore could be quickly exempted - it just does not make sense for citizens and non citizens to be split to the left and to the right. The only separation should be safe and unsafe people

At present, some film actor ex footballer raging nut of a citizen is ok and a safe experienced non citizen is barred - yes let's get the press involved.

I don't see why this is a minority concern because I am sure all safe shooters feel at one with other safe shooters and the non citizens should get lots of support from citizens who are safe shooters

Alan

NewbieShooter

April 28, 2008, 02:17 AM

Quote:
Hi Batman, i was going through the DOL and even security guards who are not citizens should have an alien firearm's license in order to get an armed security guard license so i guess i don't see any loophole here.

So their current situation right now might be, "you can become an armed security guard only if you are a citizen (since you cannot have an AFL right now if you are a non-citizen)"

you can see the info here

http://www.dol.wa.gov/business/secur...ggetarmed.html

Thanks.

That's not what I am talking about. Almost all security guards in WA state have to be licensed. Unarmed SG's have to go through the same finger print and background checks for their unarmed guard license that non citizens have to for the AFL, and both licences are processed by the DOL, yet only the AFL process is affected?

I think this is a political way for them to discriminate against non citizens. Time for the media to get involved, this is fishy.

ohh i see yeah now i got it, sorry my bad, i interpreted it wrongly.:uhoh:

MD_Willington

April 28, 2008, 03:28 PM

The question is, would the media want to make a story of this... they only tend to gravitate towards the negative in regards to firearms...

Maybe contact Rossi and see how he feels about the subject, we know how Queen G and her posse feel about it...

batman

April 28, 2008, 09:59 PM

The question is, would the media want to make a story of this... they only tend to gravitate towards the negative in regards to firearms...

Maybe contact Rossi and see how he feels about the subject, we know how Queen G and her posse feel about it...

Those investigative reporters would LOVE to hear about this. It is a story of discrimination and corruption in government, in a post 9/11 world. YOUR tax dollars at work, etc.

I would contact every news agency in every major city in washington. One coockie cutter email sent out to each one of them will result in their investigative reporters contacting DOL and asking questions. This will make the state crap their pants. Right now the state expects you to just sit there and take this BS like a good little subject, and most of you are falling for it because you think you have no rights as an immigrant. Nothing could be further fromt the truth.

A story going public about this BS is exactly what will light a fire under their asses to get this show on the road and start to find a way to begin processing licences once again.

After all, all other licensec that DOL puts through the same fingerprint and BG checks have remained unaffected. They do those checks the same way they do the AFL checks. But by some miracle in a post 9/11 world, only AFL licences have been affected...

Originally Posted by Darth Muffin:
...Until then, the 14th amendment may not apply in your case. It says: "All persons born or naturalized in the United States, and subject to the jurisdiction thereof, are citizens of the United States and of the State wherein they reside. No State shall make or enforce any law which shall abridge the privileges or immunities of citizens of the United States; nor shall any State deprive any person of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law; nor deny to any person within its jurisdiction the equal protection of the laws."

In the 1990 case United States v. Verdugo-Urquidez (1990) the Supreme Court essentially ruled that non resident aliens are not protected by the Constitutional Amendments referring to “the people”. This means “the people” refers to “persons who are part of a national community or who have otherwise developed sufficient connection with this country.”

Originally Posted by awm:
I hesitantly broached the subject of legal permanent residents shooting at the range (with rented pistols of course since we can't have our own). The guy at Wade's assured me that it was okay do do so without an AFL. Apparently, it's not considered possession to shoot on their property. If however, I was to take the gun off their property then that would be possession and then I could be charged with a felony offense.

This is why you may shoot MGs/Title II weapons in WA if the dealer who owns it is present. If they are present, they are still "in possession" of it, even if you are pulling the trigger (testing the merchandise).

IANAL, YMMV, Etc.

MD_Willington

May 6, 2008, 01:13 PM

I emailed a few TV stations.. no reply...

user3214

May 7, 2008, 01:26 AM

How you got that meaning I don't know?

United States v. Verdugo-Urquidez, 494 U.S. 259 (1990)[1], was a United States Supreme Court decision that determined that Fourth Amendment protections do not apply to searches and seizures by United States agents of property owned by a nonresident alien in a foreign country

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_v._Verdugo-Urquidez

Kilted_scot

May 7, 2008, 12:56 PM

The problem here is that this case is talking about non resident aliens and the lack of constitutional protections. However, many if not all of the people who are refused the Alien Firearms permit, and especially those posting here are resident aliens.

MD_Willington

May 7, 2008, 04:16 PM

Resident alien since 2005, actually adjusted 9/14/04.. but my green card was not issued until June 2005...just found some paper work pertaining to that while cleaning up my cube...

busy_squirrel

May 9, 2008, 02:00 AM

non resident aliens are not protected by the Constitutional Amendments referring to “the people”. This means “the people” refers to “persons who are part of a national community or who have otherwise developed sufficient connection with this country.”

this case is talking about non resident aliens and the lack of constitutional protections. However, many if not all of the people who are refused the Alien Firearms permit, and especially those posting here are resident aliens.

Correct. The SCOTUS disqualified non-resident aliens from constitutionally protected rights because they havn't developed "sufficient connections with this country" NOT BECAUSE they are not yet citizens.

So the SCOTUS is admitting that constitutionally protected rights MAY extend beyond just citizenship to those with "sufficient connection with this country".

To me, that makes a great legal argument IN SUPPORT of resident aliens (that have begun the process of naturalization) being covered by constitutionally protected rights. i.e. 2nd Amendment right to keep and bear arms

English Builder

May 10, 2008, 06:38 PM

Hi , I am an English shooter and have just obtained my green card for myself and my family after four years of hoops and expense . I am planning to move to Washington State early next year. Fell in love with it on my last visit and after much research (FindYourSpot.com ) I have a house in Florida but its too hot for us . I can buy what guns I like there and am intending to get my Florida CCW license . Am bringing kids over for their first visit in September as I have loose ends to tie up in England . Should I rethink because of this one issue .
Here in the UK we had a problem with the police not issuing firearms certificates renewals in time . In theory we would have been liable to a mandatory five years jail time for possession of a firearm without a valid license . However the police themselves would have been guilty of aiding and abetting the offense as they advised us that it was o.k . No prosecutions were forthcoming .
I will do all I can to help resolve this failure in law .

MD_Willington

May 12, 2008, 02:45 PM

Hello English Builder.

Not sure if you should rethink, what area did you have in mind?

If it is Eastern WA you're heading to, you may want to look at a quick jaunt over to Idaho...

That is still an option for my family at this time, though we'd really like to stay in WA.

English Builder

May 12, 2008, 06:56 PM

Hello Mr Willington . I just got an e- mail from Jim Moeller

He is a legislator and believes that as there was no opposition to the bill it has every chance of passing next session as in 2009 they meet for 120 days compared to only 60 in 2008 -which caused many bill to run out of time . I am thinking Annacortes ! I Dive and love the sea . I'd miss the rain out east .

user3214

May 14, 2008, 01:18 AM

Well the same bill didn't pass in 2007 when there were 120 days

NewbieShooter

May 14, 2008, 02:36 PM

You never know.. if it will even pass in the next session. Its just that keep pushing .. till it passes, don't put hopes on any sessions.

batman

May 26, 2008, 04:53 AM

Google Chan VS City of Troy. AFL are discriminatory and unconstitutional even if you are not a citizen of the United States, ruled the court.

MD_Willington

May 27, 2008, 03:25 PM

OT: One of the fellows working to help us out of this bind is seeking re-election.

Here it is at a friends blog:

May 23, 2008: Washington state Sen. Mark Schoesler announced today he will seek a second term as 9th District state senator.

Ok, this has wandered off the original track and then out of the right of way altogether.

I suggest that some of the discussion be reopened in Legal and some in General.

hso

June 26, 2008, 04:27 PM

Updated info -

Bill HB 2955 became effective on June 12, 2008. This bill authorizes the WA DOL direct access to federal criminal backgrounds records. In a nutshell this law certifies the WA DOL as a "Criminal Justice Agency".

Please contact your local Representative, Representative Ross Hunter & Cathy McMorris Rogers and ask them to contact the FBI regarding the issue as at this time the FBI is stalling on allowing the WA State DOL access to the background check.

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