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I have just been informed by a former senior military leader that Obama is using a new “litmus test” in determining who will stay and who must go in his military leaders. Get ready to explode folks. “The new litmus test of leadership in the military is if they will fire on US citizens or not.” Those who will not are being removed.

So, who is the source?

Garrow replied: “The man who told me this is one of America’s foremost military heroes.”

Understand, this is not coming from Alex Jones or Jesse Ventura, or from anyone else the left often dismisses with great ease.

Garrow is a well-respected activist and has spent much of his life rescuing infant girls from China, babies who would be killed under that country’s one-child policy. He was also nominated for Nobel Peace Prize for his work.

[…]This comes on the heels of Sunday’s report in the Washington Free Beacon (WFB) that the head of Central Command, Marine Corps Gen. James Mattis is being dismissed by Obama and will leave his post in March.

The WFB article states:

“Word on the national security street is that General James Mattis is being given the bum’s rush out of his job as commander of Central Command, and is being told to vacate his office several months earlier than planned.”

Did Gen. Mattis refuse to “fire on U.S. citizens?”

Couple this with Jarrett, Pfeiffer, and Obama’s strange signaling that the debate over the scope of government is over — presumably, victory has been granted to the post-constitutionalists by a 51% “mandate,” giving the President and his leftist cabal the populist sympathy to act outside the current system of government, which Pfeiffer noted is unsuitable for getting things done, and is antiquated insofar as it prevents Obama from acting the role of world-shaper and imperial President. A king, if you will. With a client base of bought-off quid pro quo votes, the mainstream “progressive” press, and academics who have always been willing to imprint their social engineering theories onto a civil society, never afraid to break a few eggs if the end result is a fluffy Denver omelet of Utopian paradise.

Ironically, I had no knowledge of this rumored military litmus test bombshell when I yesterday suggested that this second amendment “fight” being disingenuously ginned up by Obama and his media, medical, and academic cronies is perhaps designed to draw out those who would, if the time did in fact come when confiscation and police state methodology was legitimated legislatively at the state level, resist such attempts at usurping a natural and Constitutional right. That is, I posited a scenario in which leftist politicians were willing to take an acceptable number of casualties to law enforcement and even other state workers and civilians by armed citizens resisting tyranny in order to frame the narrative of fringe militia extremists at war with the government — creating a crisis in which they can “temporarily” call for a moratorium on gun and ammunition sales, and require “voluntary” registration of weapons.

Every time the organized left sneers openly at our paranoid conspiracy fantasies, it is nothing more than an attempt to shame us into silence. For months here, troll after troll scoffed at the idea that Obama wanted to take away our guns, up to and even past the time when he and his administration made it clear that these attempted bans on magazine capacity and weapon types, coupled to vague notions of “mental health” and AG determined “dangerous” traits, is exactly the piecemeal plan to disarm us. That is, to take away our only real protection of individual liberty.

And now we’re told by a trusted source that this New Lefist cabal of constitutional republican pretenders is actively seeking out a military hierarchy who would support the dictates of those in government over the people whose government this is, regardless of who has the Constitutional right of things.

For those of us paying attention, these are indeed harrowing times. I’ve no doubt anymore than I and others who blog daily about individual sovereignty and the rights of a free people to resist a tyrannical takeover of their country in what until now has been a soft coup, are on some sort of terrorist watch list — at least, if the West Point “study”, already eagerly adopted by progressive drivers of manufactured consent, is any indication.

Obama, by his own admission — and in what some breathless groupie journalists actually compared to the Gettysburg Address — is calling, almost transparently now, for a fundamental reformation of the relationship between citizen and government. Obama believes the government is the civil society; he believes the government, therefore, is the well-spring of our “collective salvation.” And he, therefore, is its Godhead.

He is a cult-like leader, and his band of true believers — and that’s whom he surrounds himself with, true believers and idolaters — are prepared to take any action to reinforce our shift from citizen to subject, and the government’s shift from ownership by the people to sovereign over them, that we allow, either through affirmation or cowed silence.

Not only can it happen here. It is happening here. And yet still many our own bien pensants on the right, lured in by the power politics of the Beltway Bubble, consider this nothing more than rugged street politics, nothing more — and find nothing “malicious” in the President’s agenda. They chide us for our “outrageous” comments while self-righteously donning the mantle of “loyal opposition,” bracketing the very real set of facts proving that today’s GOP is no real “opposition” at all.

— That, and forgetting that this president was suckled on the Communist teat of Frank Marshall Davis, moved on to Alinsky and Piven and the strategy meetings of Cooper Union communists looking for ways to make the Marxist message palatable to a country built on free market capitalists, befriended Palestinian terrorist enablers and apologists, and then emerged in politics as a protege of Bill Ayers, the man whose Weather Underground movement sought to overthrow the government — propelling into the ultimate seat of power the perfect Potemkin pragmatist, sold to us as a post-partisan, post-racial healer the would absolve us of our racist colonialist sins, with the actual means to do so.

I don’t for a second believe Ayers ever gave up on his dreams of an overthrow of our system. Guity as sin, free as bird tends to embolden an ideologue who, like Obama, appears every bit the narcissist and tyrant in waiting.

My own suspicion is that Obama is hoping the collapse his policies are designed to bring about occur after he leaves office. But he’s making contingency plans, and part of that can be heard in the subtext of his inaugural speech. Obama is looking to divide us fully — to clarify the “sides” — so that its easier to identify enemies of his new post-constitutional Utopian state.

Further, his introduction of a plethora of wedge issues, now that he’s been safely re-elected, is designed to fracture the GOP, to suss out those who may be used as useful idiots (who find principled conservatives less palatable than encroaching totalitarianism) from those who may be, as we say, “lost causes” — fringe extremists whose fidelity to the Constitution marks them as potential terrorist threats to the country who must be jailed away or worse.

When this blog began, I spoke often to “liberals” — hell, I still identify and a classical liberal, and until that designation is deconstructed and reinscribed by the language and thought police, there can be no doubt that my beliefs mirror those of classical liberalism — and we discussed on an intellectual level policy differences and our ideological divide. Those days are now long gone — and no one on the right looking to blow sunshine up our asses by telling us otherwise should be heeded. And if that sounds harsh, that’s because it’s intended to. Obama is no “good man.” He is the culmination of the New Left’s fantasy to change American into just another tyrannical backwater — albeit one that maintains the facade and all the trappings of a functioning democracy.

This is it. We are nearing the point of conflagration. And every day I sit and wait and worry that such a manufactured spark will set off the powder keg Obama and the New Left have been packing since his first days in office. His re-election has clearly emboldened him and his followers.

I only pray that no matter how many military leaders Obama can recruit and convince of the necessity to fire on their fellow countrymen — using the lie that they are quelling a violent and treasonous series of small, fringe insurrections — there are still those within the military ranks who will, when push comes to shove, remember their Constitutional oaths and refuse to participate in any post-FDR attempts to either round-up erstwhile law-abiding citizens, or worse.

Even if you aren’t religious, now would be a good time to pray for the safety of this, the last best hope for freedom, the USA as founded.

Comments (157)

Take a deep breath. Perhaps this is an exercise to try and have the loonies embarrass themselves. Anonymous sources don’t lend much credibility to such incendiary claims.

I’m not familiar with many generals who actually fire on anyone, but those in positions of combat authority may give orders to do so. Even so, I don’t think you will find many (any?) generals willing to give such an order, and damn few lower grade officers or enlisted men willing to carry them out.

Take a deep breath. Perhaps this is an exercise to try and have the loonies embarrass themselves. Anonymous sources don’t lend much credibility to such incendiary claims.

No thanks. If I embarrass myself, or you, so be it.

Because even if it is merely a way to suss out the “loonies,” isn’t that just another iteration of what the post is positing?

Answer: you bet your ass it is.

The best thing for me to do would be to shut down my blog and not speak publicly at all. But even though I’ve been largely marginalized, I still feel compelled to sound the alarm to whomever may be listening.

I don’t think you will find many (any?) generals willing to give such an order, and damn few lower grade officers or enlisted men willing to carry them out.

Don’t count on it. Seriously. Don’t.

Soldiers are trained to follow orders without question, trusting their officers to know what they’re doing. If the order comes to quell a violent insurrection of dangerous people, are the soldiers and officers going to end their careers—right then and there—because they don’t think the “crazies” deserve it?

That’s above their pay grade.

Hello? Waco? Kent State?

Even if they DID defy orders, it wouldn’t be during the first attack on the crazies: it would be after awhile, after they figured it out, and blood will have already been spilt.

OR, I wouldn’t put it past the CiC to order such a quelling just to see who had a problem with it and then expel those who did. Like a cult figure who gives his congregants non-poisoned Kool-Aid to see who balks.

Also, the military has been infiltrated by proggs and Islamists at the highest levels, or didn’t you notice how they whitewashed the Fort Hood massacre, plus made PC all training materials for soldiers in Muslim nations?

This is not the military we used to know and trust. It’s honeycombed through and through with bad actors and corrupt political operators, especially at the top.

This particular story might not have a solid basis. But then again, it might.

Anything is possible. Yes the government will lie to you. See Tuskegee. Yes there are many who believe that Lee Harvey Oswald did not act alone, if he acted at all. Same with James Earl Ray or Sirhan Sirhan Sirhan, gotta have those three names. Grains of salt but eyes open just the same.

That West Point “study” that Jeff links is evidence of the corruption of the military by proggressivism. Look at this!

[I]ts latest study turns inward and paints a broad brush of people it considers “far right.”

It says anti-federalists “espouse strong convictions regarding the federal government, believing it to be corrupt and tyrannical, with a natural tendency to intrude on individuals’ civil and constitutional rights. Finally, they support civil activism, individual freedoms, and self government. Extremists in the anti-federalist movement direct most their violence against the federal government and its proxies in law enforcement.”

The report also draws a link between the mainstream conservative movement and the violent “far right,” and describes liberals as “future oriented” and conservatives as living in the past.

1. Get everyone on board with keeping guns out of the hands of crazy people.
2. Make sure anyone who resists is branded a traitor or insurrectionist.
3. Make sure hunters know their right to hunt won’t be infringed. (we know that’s a lie, bear with me)

The three tactics above are designed to hem in supporters of the Second Amendment while reducing support.

Waco wasn’t the military, it was the FBI playing paramilitary. And I’m pretty sure I remember reading that the National Guardsmen at Kent State didn’t fire until after they were fired upon.

Those are both accurate. Kent State had been under seige for nearly four days before the NG was fired on and returned fire. Additionally, the famous photo of the dead kid and crying co-ed, the modern day Pieta, is staged.

Reminds me a lot of that new show, The Following. Psychopathic mass murdered has developed a cult of followers who do whatever he asks, up to and including one woman driving an icepick through her own eye into her brain. I see far too many similarities here.

I know that Waco was the FBI. Do they somehow have a different ethic than the U.S. Military, outside of posse comitatus? Did no one think to defy Janet Reno when she ordered the tank in?

Koresh was right: They could have served the warrant at any time while he was off the compound, but instead they stupidly followed the badger into his den, and once the stand-off began, did no one think to back off, pretend to drop the issue, and wait for him to emerge again? Were they all so stupid that they didn’t know that people like Koresh LIVE for the day when they can be martyrs at the hands of their enemies? Were they unaware that cult leaders (cf Jim Jones) will always take their flock with them when they’re cornered?

Apparently, yes, they were that stupid. And they still are.

Maybe the U.S. Military won’t be sent against us: it’ll be ATF and the FBI and the NSA.

It really sucks that this even seems plausible. Maybe the order of one soldier (or federal agent, such as DHS, ATF, etc.) to fire upon one citizen seems unthinkable, but just look at how comfortable politicians, bureaucrats & Lefty activists have become in dismissing the lives of their fellow nameless, faceless citizens through abortion, assisted suicide, IPAB/HHS (i.e. Death Panels), and even environmental measures (destroying peoples’ livelihood for the delta smelt may not be as direct, but the end game is clear).
The culture has evolved to value human life less, and Obama has done much to gin up hate and distrust amongst Americans as well as force citizens who value life to act against their conscience (Hobby Lobby, etc.).

The history of the British monarchy is century after century of crowned heads trying to accumulate power, and the petty nobility trying to take it away — culminating first with the Magna Carta, but ultimately concluding in today’s “constitutional monarchy” in which the Crown has no actual power.

The history of the American presidency has been decade after decade of presidents trying to accumulate power, and Congress … giving it to him.

Obama has removed and replaced the entire upper command structure in the theatres of war in these past few months. His cabinet is likewise in flux (trending to Old White Guys) and while John Kerry and Chuck Hagel served a million years ago, they were not career men. Rather, they became Company Men and will be in charge of and making important decisions regarding troop deployment and armament.

Even National Guard troops have seen more action under federal command than at home in their respective states. The only focus of optimism I can see is in the number of officers leaving the military under Obama, who might step up in the event of an order to the troops to fire on U.S. civilians.

It will come down to loyalty, and if the culture in the ranks has been corrupted to favor obedience to a man over obedience to the Constitution, we’re fucked.

moreso than life American culture has evolved to value human freedom less

and it’s not a right left thing

That’s a bunch of goo. First, this is an instant when I agree with sdferr over the word “value”, and, you have to have a very subjective defining of “right” and “left” for what you said to be true. And what does it have to do with three fucking strikes?

With a man like Obama, who has lied to us over and over again about what he is doing even as he does it, nothing is off-limits. This claim is very plausible. We’ll really know how plausible it is when the left starts vigorously denying it.

Whether or not soldiers would fire on us is an interesting question, and I don’t believe it settled at all in our favor. That video posted by JHo about the fascists among us was enough to deter me from thinking we’re safe.

Do they somehow have a different ethic than the U.S. Military, outside of posse comitatus? Did no one think to defy Janet Reno when she ordered the tank in?

I think the FBI thinks in terms of unlawful search and siezure, not lawful/unlawful orders.

Koresh was right: They could have served the warrant at any time while he was off the compound, but instead they stupidly followed the badger into his den,

If I remember my early 90s conspiracy mongering correctly, the ATF conducted that very public raid (complete with local TV reporters in tow) because budget hearings were coming up and the ATF brass wanted to look cool for their Congressional masters.

Maybe the U.S. Military won’t be sent against us: it’ll be ATF and the FBI and the NSA.

If they don’t first send the lambs goats to the slaughter, how will they then justify bringing in the military?

Yes, he does. He and his buddies are all pilots and FAA instructors, all retired now, natch since they are in their 70’s. I’ll ask him what they have on this matter. He hasn’t shared anything new in the last few days other than the usual “We’re all doomed” stuff about the Ds in office and our turncoat Rs.

The sale of cough medicines contain sudephedrine is controlled in many states because it is used in the manufactor of methamphetamine. It is still sold OTC but you can’t waltz in and buy every bottle on the shelf. This isn’t the case here in my bitter-clinger state, but I believe it is to the North (MO) and the East (AR) of us.

Four months ago grandmother Sally Harpold went to a drugstore and bought one box of Zyrtec-D cold medicine for her husband and then less than seven days later at a different drugstore she bought a box of Mucinex-D cold medicine for her adult daughter. This meant she had purchased 3.6 grams of pseudoephedrine in less than a week’s time.

Then on July 30 she was arrested by by the police on a Vermillion County warrant for a class-C misdemeanor, which carries a sentence of 60 days in jail and up to a $500 fine.

Her crime?

She had broken a law that is designed to stop people buying large quantities of drugs that can be used to make methamphetamines – of which pseudoephedrine is one of the ingredients. As a result of being arrested her mug shot ran on the front page of her local paper with a headline of “17 Arrested in Drug Sweep”.

[I]ts latest study turns inward and paints a broad brush of people it considers “far right.”

What we all need to remember is there is an orchestrated propaganda effort by the progg media that reaches far past the news into all aspects of culture. It is Alinsky at it’s core, and it’s aim is to destroy the concept of individuality for the sake of the Utopian collective.

For instance, I was watching a show about Presidents from 1850-1901 on the History channel last weekend. During the discussion of Andrew Johnson, from the time he was picked for vice president until his impeachment as President, the narrators used the expression “Republican extremists” or a variation therefor at least four times before I changed the channel (for the sake of my TV).

As for this particular post, I can imagine this as an Alinsky gambit leaked from the proggs, where they release a false story about a real objective, in order to achieve multiple objectives, from exposing advisories and ridiculing them for being fanatic conspiracy theory wacko’s, tracking public sentiment in general, and to just put the idea out there to get the sheep acclimated to the idea and it’s virtues.

The Feds monitor all kinds of purchases. I had to fill out some ridiculous Federal form just to buy a 5gal pail of nitromethane (a common industrial solvent, race car, and model airplane fuel ingredient). Nitromethane is no more dangerous or flammable than methanol, which requires no forms.

Sudafed regulation is asinine in that it only serves to inconvenience law abiding citizens.

Perhaps counterintuitively, that’s why I don’t lose sleep over potheads rotting in prison for twenty or more years. If I’m going to have to jump through hoops every spring and fall, all because of someone else’s illegal habit, they can rot after getting caught as far as I’m concerned.

I will say this though. In the last four years, the media, democrats and civil libertarian activists have all made it superabundantly clear that what they really object to vis-a-vis governmental intrusion upon civil liberties via excessive use of law and police power is sharing the use of those powers with Republicans.

The Radical Republicans were a loose faction of American politicians within the Republican Party from about 1854 (before the American Civil War) until the end of Reconstruction in 1877. They called themselves “radicals”…

A SF friend of mine said that the military are trained to do things most people won’t do: run into danger, etc. Therefore, they often times don’t question orders. He surprised me with that answer because I was expecting him to agree with me that most military wouldn’t fire on their own countrymen.

We had this conversation several weeks ago.

This has nothing to do with the military being your enemy. It has everything to do with military training and structure. Yes, a goodly portion wouldn’t fire. But don’t underestimate the numbers who will follow orders. After all, they’d be firing at potential terrorists and insurrectionists, traitors to the country, people who have gone beyond the designation of “loyal opposition” all because a temporary leader neutered a few of their rights.

I don’t see drug criminalization (including the regulations on Sudafed) as a great threat to freedom. Either the government handles the situation or citizens will have to start shooting drug dealers down in the street (freedom!). Where freedom is threatened is when the government mandates STD vaccines for young ladies, or forces people to purchase health insurance.

Sudefed control is pointless. It’s too little too late. If you’re going to be stupid enough to snort, smoke or shoot up street drugs, you deserve to die or go to jail. Especially with meth. It has lithium in it since part of the process of making it involves lithium batteries and assorted other crap that no one in their right mind would decide was a recreational drug.

“Koresh LIVE for the day when they can be martyrs at the hands of their enemies? ”

So you are saying Koresh set the fires on the entire perimeter of the compound that emoilated himself and his followers? Be careful what you say. I watched it as it happened live on closed feed satellite. I will tell you this: the fires were set, probably not by whom you think set them.

I’m of the opinion that in a world awash in all kinds of pharmaceuticals, some controls are absolute necessary. From there, there is only debate over where the lines are drawn, and I find it difficult to say where the lines drift into statism. If you don’t agree with my opinion, we’ll just have to do the conservative/libertarian agree to disagree thang…

“It will come down to loyalty, and if the culture in the ranks has been corrupted to favor obedience to a man over obedience to the Constitution, we’re fucked.”

I don’t think so. The active duty people I know HATE Obama.

That’s one rule out of the Competent Dictator’s Handbook that he neglected to follow — make sure that the military is on your side. It may be that what saves us is that the American left is still operating on Moscow’s old program, i.e., hate the U.S. military.

That doesn’t necessarily mean that we AREN’T fucked, though. You could imagine a scenario where the military chooses a Caesar who is more to their liking. I don’t think that’s the case, either. Most of the kids in the military still believe in American values. Few libs join.

the Utah Sheriff’s Association sent an open letter to President Barack Obama. stating they would defend the Second Amendment and enforce the rights of the citizenry to bear arms. The letter goes as far as to state: “No federal official will be permitted to descend upon our constituents and take from them what the Bill of Rights – in particular Amendment II – has given them.”

The sentiment is echoed by county sheriffs in various parts of the country

Sheriff Larry Smith, of Smith County, Texas, said he wouldn’t enforce gun laws he considered unconstitutional. […]

In Idaho, as reported by KTVB, Keiran Donahue, Canyon County Sheriff, said: “… Gun ownership is not a political issue; it is a constitutional right

In Missouri, Sheriff Steve Cox, Livingston County Sheriff, told StJoeChannel.com he sent his own letter to the president in which he stated, “I personally and professionally believe there are many other useful ways to better help in educating and protecting our population than by dismantling the Constitution.”

Red, I asked Hubs and he says while he doesn’t doubt that newbs would fire on civilians given his low opinion of our troops today, I don’t necessarily agree with him. I know that the husbands of a few of my acquaintances have husbands who are enlisted and as Spies says, they hate Obama. After they rotate out after a third tour, they really hate him.

Anyway, I know some active duty enlisted and he doesn’t at this time, and neither of us know any active officers well enough to ask them for an opinion.

So you are saying Koresh set the fires on the entire perimeter of the compound that immolated himself and his followers?

I don’t know who set the fires; I do know that they were PREPARED to go down at the hands of the FBI or wait them out, whichever came first. Koresh was delusional enough to identify himself as “the lamb of God,” who alone possessed the ability to correctly interpret Revelation.

For some of these cults, being martyred by the enemy is an honor.

On the other hand, had the FBI not behaved like jackasses, they’d be there still, living out their wackadoodle lives, just as they’re entitled to do.

If there is a purge of the military going on, a bright side will be the influx of capable leaders into the militia. Most recent veterans I’ve spoken to are pro constitution and pro gun. Most also have combat experience. tactical training, and better than average markmanship.

The military as a whole is an overwhelmingly conservative institution. You’re going to find the vast majority of them among the private gun-owners of this country, better educated on the Constitution, and not very likely to obey any liberal orders that contradict the Constitution. You might find a small number of people in the military who’d fall for it, but the rank and file aren’t going to. I was in the military and I’m legacy military. Whatever plans Obama and his ilk might have, the military is going to be a problem for them, not a solution.

I wasn’t using the term “wackadoodle” with my own voice; I’m amply aware of how weird my faith looks to others (and back atcha, btw).

However, I did hear some of his rantings, and it struck me as delusional to claim to be “the lamb of God,” i.e., Jesus, who specifically stated that his second coming would be seen by all, on account of he’d be descending out of the clouds.

Each month, we’re adding a couple million (give or take) “crazy people” to our ranks. Methinks if Team Alinsky wants to disarm us, they’d better hurry up. If they wait much longer, our lakes will overflow their banks ‘cuz of all the hardware we’re tragically losing in them.

I’m less concerned about the military turning on American citizens than I am of other organizations such as DHS, TSA, FBI, etc. They have already demonstrated how little they regard non-criminal citizens’ basic rights (e.g. manhandling minors and strip-searching grannies) and they’ve ventured into new frontiers on monitoring citizens over the last 4 years (email, internet usage, drones, xrays, etc,). Boundaries have already been breached.

The Koresh stand off didn’t end even after he took a bullet. Most of the bad guys surrender after taking a round because they are afraid they will die.

At any time, Koresh could have negotiated a surrender, because the FBI was not going to execute them, which is what Koresh was claiming would happen if he did.

Was the FBI and assorted cowboy morons that planned this operation a pack of idiots with badges? Absolutely. I watched it all unfold as it happened at the Military Police unit I was in, and we all were giving play by play commentary. The whole thing was a total botch by the Feds, from beginning to end. Everything that could go wrong did so. A complete debacle.

But, Koresh himself could have ended it peacefully by putting down the guns and walking out. Thats the bottom line.

The social science lens is the science device (like a telescope, or microscope) that allows the social scientists to guide progress by means of their perfect knowledge of human ends. Must be cozy, that.

I tend to agree with Libby, that”Federal Agencies” other than the military will be the first threat. Keep in mind the enormous amount of .40 calibre ammo recently purchased by various feds. IRC, .40 ia not a standard military round.

Koresh himself could have ended it peacefully by putting down the guns and walking out.

He used his followers as human shields, which is despicable. Which is also why I posited that he was one of those cult leaders with a family annihilator mentality: “If I go, they go, because they’re an extension of me.”

If you think Koresh set himself and his followers on fire, say so.

I said I didn’t KNOW if they set themselves on fire. Assuming they didn’t, I still can’t put it past Koresh to allow it to happen so that he can be vindicated post-mortem.

Which, if you count McVeigh’s attack on OK city, he was.

I don’t happen to have one of those “atchas” on my person

Gimme a readout of your foundational assumptions and I bet I can find a few I find odd.

“By their works, shall you know them.”

Keeping in mind that God’s ways will always look odd to the secular world. “Weird” is the word we use to say “that’s not what I’m used to.” It cannot be used as a guide for what is true or valid.

Firing on American civilians would be highly unlikely to be interpreted as a lawful order.

There’s no scenario in which it would be lawful to cook meth for your CO; there are scenarios in which it might be lawful to shoot U.S. citizens.

What if they’re dangerous traitors who are a clear and present danger to the Republic? What if the troops have no way of knowing what’s actually going on, not having been given time to know what’s going on?

What if the CiC has a fistful of “studies” from West Point that clearly identify dangerous hate groups who must be subdued immediately if not sooner?

You should see what the USDA is doing to farmers who have the temerity to sell raw milk to people who haul it across state lines.

This is just priceless. In defense of the leftist stew he’s simmering in, Dale K. Hunter throws out the assertion that conservative thinkers are “uncritical,” throws out the convenient lie that conservatives are “unquestioning” in their praise of capitalism, and admits that his peers are so closed-minded and parochial that they won’t even entertain the hearing out of conservative ideas. He further admits the fact of his field’s ossification with his assertion that clear-eyed conservatism is the antithesis of the accepted (and acceptable, by his definitions) social science paradigm.

The idea that a Master (hah!) of Arts (hah!) in Sociology (ha ha!) stands diametrically opposed to a system that allows people to order their own society per their own preferences is in almost every way a better illustration of Jeff’s point than anything I might have thought up.

Not to put to caustic a point to it; remember this sentiment when they come for you and yours.

They came after Joseph Smith over and over and over, and he never used his followers as human shields: he always went quietly and stayed in jail until the trumped-up charges were dismissed. (Until the mob got him while in jail that last time.)

He went quietly to prevent his followers from coming to harm (for all the good that did). If the EPA comes after you personally, but not your family in the house behind you, oh yes you do go peacefully.

On the other hand, if all Tea Partiers are being generally rounded up?

The whole point of “otherizing” those on the right, by ginning up hate (by Obama, OFA, OWS, etc.) and holding little seminars on “hate and extremism” is to make it easier for them to be shot at or otherwise contained later. Also makes others less sympathetic when it happens – “those nuts deserved what they got.”

Soc. MA hoss, so some sort of uncritical con theorist isn’t going to gain any sort of departmental traction. Maybe moreso than in anthro.

You can not analyze critically and still unquestionably praise capitalism over the last 150 years. So its the antithesis of the social science lens.

That was a string of gibberish. I’ll tell you how you can tell a conservative is in your academic midst: When he grades that kind of pablum, it comes back to you with a lot of red (sorry, we now use green, red being too aggressive) ink all over it.

You know, it’s really a shame that things like Waco, Benghazi don’t happen more often on a Republican’s watch. Because then we’d get a real investigation and some real accountability, and maybe even weed out some the incompetent, and vicious, and viciously incompetent.

Of course, that could by why it doesn’t happen on a Republican’s watch in the first place.

“But, Koresh himself could have ended it peacefully by putting down the guns and walking out. Thats the bottom line.”

When ATF first came up to the “compound” Koresh and a couple of his people opened the front door, unarmed. They were then fired on by ATF. This action cemented in the minds of all who were there that the Feds meant to kill them all. Downhill from there.

On Kent State. There is an audio tape of events. Just before the main volley of over 60 shots there were 4? shots fired right after a confrontation is heard, then after those 4? shots a voice is heard giving the order to fire. Witnesses said that one of the Guard’s leaders drew his sidearm and fired at the protesters before the volley of shots. Then there was and FBI informant in the crowd who was tasked to take pictures of the leaders and who was armed, some think he may have shot his weapon, an agent provocateur, or defending himself? If there was a sniper no trace of their shots were found.

The students hit were from 70 to over 400 feet away from the guard when they were hit. My take is that this was almost foreordained when a small number (77 IIRC) of inexperienced troops were sent in with loaded weapons, bayonets fixed, to quell a protest of around 2000. Stupidity on high on both sides.

Not to suggest Democrats enjoy overseeing the killings of their fellow Americans, or refuse to learn the lessons of attacks on Embassies and the like by madmen-jihadi islamist elements, but only to notice that accidents happen accidentally to the same people every now and again, I assume, Ernst?

Havent you heard? Democratic congressman Eliot Engel said that “Barack Obama was not responsible for the Benghazi attack any more than George W. Bush was responsible for the 9/11 attacks”. {Gee, what do 9/11 and Benghazi have in common – maybe a Clinton?]

But Bush was responsible for Katrina, Abu Garib, outing Valerie Plame, and so on. They’ll just manufacture incidents if they don’t actually happen while a Republican is in office.

Randy Weaver was set up by the ATF. He was coerced into selling/acting as a go between(?) in the sale of weapons thus giving them an excuse to raid his home. In a cockup of collosal proportion, they killed his teenaged son (who I believe killed an agent before they got him) and his wife and (maybe?) infant child she was holding who were shot through a door. Leading to a stand-off where Weaver and the teen daughter were trapped with the dead and were surrounded in the cabin for days.

Disgusting. Weaver finally won a judgement against the government a few years ago.

When ATF first came up to the “compound” Koresh and a couple of his people opened the front door, unarmed. They were then fired on by ATF. This action cemented in the minds of all who were there that the Feds meant to kill them all. Downhill from there.

I don’t remember the ATF knocking on the front door. I do remember seeing video of AFT agents in full swat gear breaching an upstairs window.

Followed by a number of gunshots passing through the wall from inside to out.

Which, someone started breaking into my upstairs, I could see happening here too (theoretically speaking of course).

Weaver was entrapped into cutting a shotgun barrel shorter than legally allowed. They wanted to “turn” him into an informant against somebody or other. Because everybody living up in the mountains/back in the woods (or worst of all, both) is up to no good.

That’s my impression anyways. I could be entirely wrong here.

If I remember right (see above), he missed his court appearance, (which had been changed without notifying him) so they went looking for him, heavily armed, because anybody living up in the mountains back in the woods probably has as many guns as the police, so you better sneak up on him. Weavers dog alerted, somebody shot the dog, then Weaver’s son shot at the police (U.S. Marshalls whomever). The rest is a clusterfuck that should have ended any number of careers, up to and including the FBI director, the head of the ATF and the Attorney General.

Part of the reason we are where we are is that it didn’t.

The sniper who shot Weaver’s wife should be in prison, as should whomever gave the order to shoot any target that presented itself. That didn’t happen either.

Exactly, that’s why the military is probably not the primary threat. If it comes down to door to door confiscation, the military will not be the first ones to kick in the doors. Initially it will probably be the FBI, ATF, DHS, or some other alphabet agency. Military action will depend on what civilian response is and whether these agencies are sucessfull or not.

Waco will never be figured out because the crime scene was burnt down and then bulldozed. That is one common element in all the high profile “events” is just how much of the evidence seems to evaporate so as to never be looked at again. Victors write the history. Our press is supposed to act as a “Team B” to look into these things but they are all on “Team D”, so …

so they went looking for him, heavily armed, because anybody living up in the mountains back in the woods probably has as many guns as the police, so you better sneak up on him. Weavers dog alerted, somebody shot the dog, then Weaver’s son shot at the police (U.S. Marshalls whomever).

Almost. IIRC. They were observing him from the woods, in camo, for days. Weaver’s son and a friend went out with their dog. Dog detected that someone was in the woods, which was their land, started barking and ran toward the woods. Camouflaged Marshall shot the dog. One of the kids shot at the woods after the dog was killed. Kids then ran back to the house. A Marshall shot back and killed Weaver’s son.

I read a first person account of one of the agents at Waco (he claims). He wasn’t regular ATF, but was some kind of auxiliary SWAT-ish guy who contracted with ATF. According to this guy’s account, they did break into the second floor with housed some kind of an armory and faced-down hostile fire from the Davidians. One of the agents was shot and fell off the tiled roof and badly broke his leg, but fought on like John Wayne. The whole thing was a hail of bullets and blood, a yardful of mud and sneaky Davidians who were hiding behind obstacles in the yard as well as the house and picking off ATF.

Somewhere in here, they were told to evac and the place went up in a ball of flame. On live teevee.

Strange, as the place didn’t burn down in the ATF raid which is the one with the roof footage, which is itself edited in a deceptive way, but a month later when the FBI backed by tanks borrowed from the Army went in.

Just remember the more outrageous the plan the less likely anyone will take it seriously until it is too late.

Our world depended on folks being moral. That is gone. We are now the Indians/Armenians/Jews waiting to be rounded up. We won’t believe it is happening right up to the point that the trigger/switch/shower is turned on…and the dying begins.

There’s no scenario in which it would be lawful to cook meth for your CO; there are scenarios in which it might be lawful to shoot U.S. citizens.
What if they’re dangerous traitors who are a clear and present danger to the Republic? What if the troops have no way of knowing what’s actually going on, not having been given time to know what’s going on?
What if the CiC has a fistful of “studies” from West Point that clearly identify dangerous hate groups who must be subdued immediately if not sooner?
You should see what the USDA is doing to farmers who have the temerity to sell raw milk to people who haul it across state lines.

Try as I might, I can’t come up with a scenario where ordering the military to attack American citizens would be justified. If this country degenerates to the point where there’s armed resistance in the streets, we will KNOW why they’re there. The US government would have to have more oppressive internet restrictions than Iran does to try to scapegoat the armed resistance and successfully get this military and its leaders to attack them. Don’t forget the number of former military (i.e. retirees or people who only served for four/six/eight years) in the general population, who also trend conservative. They’re more likely to BE that armed resistance, if God forbid it ever came to that, and they will have contacts in the active duty population. I’m no longer active duty, but I still have friends and contacts who are. Is the US Government so powerful as to keep little incognito me from speaking to them? Not yet, nowhere near. Internet rights are a TOUCHY subject. The government is going to have a hard time cracking down there, and until they do, the ability to scapegoat is limited. We have a long way to fall before we ever have to worry about a cover-up and scapegoating of armed resistance that results in the US military firing on Americans.

What I don’t think a lot of people think about is that it’s probably not going to be our military troops they send to collect the guns etc, it will be UN forces and they will be all too willing to help “take down the US.”

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