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Need Tips to sit in Full Lotus & Hand Mudra question

I am currently sitting in Burmese position. Sometimes I do half lotus with minor pain (when left leg is up). I have sat in full lotus a few times and every time I end up with more leg pain and sometimes even pain in left side of the neck. But I find the half lotus and full lotus seem to bring an immediate stillness and sense of calm to the body. I need some tips on how you went from burmese or half lotus to full lotus. Are there any exercises or yoga postures?

Second question on hand mudra: I read somewhere that the middle knuckles should overlap when we place hand mudra. I see that some teachers do sit that way while others don't. I find doing that a bit uncomfortable. I usually bring my hands together till my thumbs touch slightly and leave like that. It is more relaxed and feels more natural. what do you suggest

There is nothing wrong with sitting Burmese, sitting Seiza or sitting in a chair. I am a yoga teacher, and I sit Burmese or occasionally half-lotus. The problem with leg pain in lotus or half lotus generally traces back to the fact that, for most men, we do not have a lot of natural hip flexibility. Women have more natural flexibility in both the hips and hamstrings, and they can find the lotus positions easier.

There are many, many yoga exercises for the hips. Pigeon. The Dragon Series. Gomukasana. Even Butterfly pose helps the hips somewhat. Brad Warner has drawings of most of these positions on his site.

the hips do NOT stretch quickly in men. It will take about a year of dedicated yoga practice just to achieve a good degree of flexibility. In the process, if you try to force yourself into lotus too early, you are only going to blow out one or both knees. Be careful.

1: Make a 1-3 year plan to give yourself some realistic time frame for developing the ability to sit in Full Lotus (whether one should try so hard to be able to do it is a different topic).

2: Join a real life Yoga class for a few months and ask the teacher to show you (in a non rushed way) what exercises you should do and how you should do them to open the hips more over a period of time.

3: Create a habit of performing these exercises repeatedly, but do not overdo them.

4: Take visual internet advice with a grain of salt. Unless you are in deep financial trouble, joining a Yoga class should not be an issue if you are serious about the Full Lotus. I am only saying this because I know a lot of people who go on about not having any money for dharma or general religious activities, but somehow they always have enough money to be able to spend 80 dollars on a concert ticket.

Hi Sam,
I went from full lotus, to half to burmese!
If you are experiencing pain then there is no point! Nothing special in the way you sit, exactly.

You can of course just sit Burmese as always and still do yoga for the exercise and flexiblity.

What I will say is any stillness you find quickly in lotus can be found in any posture that is comfortable and stable. Then again stillness is not found in any position, its in your all in your head.
Taigu has a great vid (actually few in a series)on this subject:

(the whole series of vids are found here)
On mudra yeah, hand over lapping and thumbs touching lightly.click image to enlargekesastitchesmudra.jpg

Some great advice here for sure. Me, I sit either half-lotus or burmese ... most times my physical body tells me which way I will be sitting, so I go with that. I too do yoga for all sorts of reasons, but it has helped in doing zazen as it opens the hips and keeps things from getting to tight. It most cases ... I just listen to my body ... it too is a great teacher.

Gassho
Shingen

RINDO SHINGEN
倫道 真現

As a trainee priest, please take any commentary by me on matters of the Dharma with a pinch of salt.

The mudra shown above is not specifically mine , it is a seal that has been transmitted through generations of teachers, it is the mudra of Nishijima, Deshimaru, Sawaki Kodo, Daishi, Menzan, Keizan, Dogen, Nyojo, Eno, Daruma, Nagarjuna, Shakyamuni and beyond...
The stitches above are not mine , they are the stitches you have been lazy about and that are sewn by the people preparing for jukai and tokudo in the THREE times.

SO THIS MUDRA IS NOT YOURS EITHER!!!

Please respect it , you cannot leave it like that, you have to takecqre of it, confortable or not, Until after years or centuries of practice, you finally understand it, that is to say you become not one not two with it.

As to the lotus, follow Mongen pointers, Hans is an excellent voice and a very good guide.

Some really good advice here especially about taking it slow. I used to sit in full lotus, half and burmese. Very stable positions. It ended up being really painful but stubbornness and determination got me through it. In the end I had to have knee surgery and I believe that my "forcing it" was a contributing factor to my knee problems (as well as a lifetime of sports). I now sit seiza but also have sat in a chair out of necessity. In the end it was a great learning experience for me. - letting go of the idea of this is the position the buddha sat in and thinking it was the "only way".

If traditional Buddhist images like this are any indication, the Buddha himself did not always sit "Full Lotus" ...

When sick and physically limited, the Buddha reclined ...

When I sat at a monastery in China a couple of years back, I found the monks sitting in all manner of positions ... please watch here from the 6:30 mark (also, you can catch my big cameos at about the 00:20 and 02:50 marks, in the inside "slow lane" during the very fast Kinhin) ...

Many Japanese tend to FETISHIZE the Lotus Posture. Yes, that is what is said .... "FETISHIZE", as Japanese culture often gets caught up in appearance and "form for the sake of form" more than substance sometimes. I have written about this before ...

Sorry that this comment is a bit long, but worth going into in detail I think ...

Posture is vital. But I think we have to keep a couple of things in mind about the history of the Lotus Position itself, its real benefits and purposes, monastery life, the Japanese tendency to fetishize the "correct" way (yarikata) to do things, and the Buddha's and Dogen's central philosophical perspectives on Practice.

Yes, the Lotus Position has been the traditional yogic position for meditation for thousands of years, even before the time of the Buddha. And certainly the Buddha sat that way (as every statue of a sitting Buddha demonstrates). And certainly there are tremendous benefits to the posture in providing balance and stability conducive to 'dropping body and mind' and engaging in balanced, stable Zazen. In that posture, we literally can give no thought to the body. The comfort and balance of the body is directly connected, and conducive to, comfort and balance of mind.

But I would hesitate to go much further in attributing any special power or physical effect to the position itself.

First off, I believe the Buddha himself sat that way because, well, he needed to sit some way for hours on end -- and the "lotus position" was then the custom in India for how people sat on the ground and very good for marathon sitting. It is a good way to sit on a rock or under a tree, which is what folks did back then (in fact, he may have sat with his posterior flat on the ground, by the way, or on a short pile of grass without a cushion or 'Zafu' ... which is very different from how we sit). As I said, it is very balanced and stable. But there is no evidence in the early Sutras and Shastras that he himself ever focused on the position itself as having some special power, always emphasizing the philosophical and psychological aspects of Buddhist philosophy far over the purely physical. Certainly, he did not encourage engaging in any other yoga positions as were common in India at the time (e.g., we do not stand on our heads as a normal part of practice), so I do not think he was a great proponent of the positional type of yoga itself.

When Buddhism spread to China, Japan and other countries, I believe that people continued to follow the custom. However, even then there have been a tremendous degree of small variations in the details of the Lotus Posture, e.g., hand position, back angle and such.

Now, when Zazen came to Dogen, well, it came to a fellow who also left us with detailed instructions about how to carry our towels in the washroom, clean our nose, bow, place incense, use a pillow while sleeping and wipe ourselves in the toilet (really, he did ... pages and pages on each). Dogen, like many Japanese of ancient and modern times, was something of a control freak who emphasized that there is "one right way" to do things (the aforementioned (yarikata). I have seen Japanese get the same way about the proper way to wear socks and enter an elevator. Here is that wonderful short film that makes fun of it (I know that you have seen it 100 times):

and here is another

Now, that is not a bad thing, mind you, for Zen Practice. Don't get me wrong. It is the same mentality exactly as in "Oryoki" meal taking in a Zen monastery by which the simple act of eating requires dozens and dozens of set gestures that must be mastered in the body memory. It is conducive to many aspects of Practice, including focused mindfulness. Sitting in a set way such as the Lotus Posture has the same benefits of allowing the action itself to be forgotten as it is mastered by the body memory.

Also, of course, in a monastery ... like in army boot camp ... you don't want folks just running around and flopping down any which way they feel, eating and sleeping whenever they wish. Quite the contrary. Discipline is required, so naturally, is the demand that everyone march around the monastery and sit in exactly the same way.

If you look at Shobogenzo and other writings by Dogen, he actually spends very little time explaining the details of how to sit. In Fukanzazengi, for example, he explains the barebones act of sitting on a cushion, crossing the legs and such ... but for sentence after sentence after sentence he is focused on the "cosmic significance" of Zazen and the mental game. It is much the same when he describes how to carry a towel in the bath, wear our robes, bow or go to the toilet. He describes the procedure, but then is much more focused on the philosophical view of the act.

Bouncing a ball or changing a tire --is-- Zazen itself. Dogen was clear on that. Of course, you do not have monks changing tires or bouncing balls too much in daily monastery life, so Dogen did not talk about those. But he did talk about the equivalent for monastery life, namely, cooking food as the Tenzo, washing the floors, etc. Dogen was crystal clear that the Lotus Position is the whole universe, the whole universe and all the Buddhas and Ancestors are sitting in the Lotus Position when you and I so sit ... but he was also clear that EVERYTHING is the Lotus Position. It is clear that Dogen, too, loved the perfection of the Lotus Posture ... but there is very little talk, if any, in his writing about the power of the position itself (do not confuse statements about the philosophical power of the position with his asserting that some energy or effect arises from the position itself ... you will not find much of that).

In my view, Dogen's real message ... and the real message of Zen practice ... is not that there is only "one way" to do something in this vast universe. It is that "one thing" should be done with our whole heart-mind as the "one and only act in that one moment" in this vast universe. That is what Dogen was saying.

My teacher, Nishijima, considers the Lotus Position a pure action, one pure thing. He recommends everyone to sit in the Lotus Position if at all possible. I do too (too many westerners get lazy or scared and don't really try, or give it sufficient time). But these days, in Zazen, Westerners have begun sitting other ways such as in seiza or on chairs, all fine if balanced and comfortable such that the body can be let be. I believe that body-mind can be dropped away in those positions too if done with balance and stability.

An overly fetishized focus on the miracles of the Lotus Position itself is misplaced and misunderstands Dogen's intent.

And then if we instruct to do the mudra, we are not really including people with one or two arms missing, if we instruct people that cannot see to set the gaze without fixing, we are kind of insulting the very people that cannot see...

Lovely politically correct world unless...

Your ironical tone fails to disguise your own frustration, lisaq.

So, why don t you target yourself? Why don t you ask yourself why what i said pisses you? Who in you is pissed? That would be zen practice, a wonderful exercise in inquiry.

And then if we instruct to do the mudra, we are not really including people with one or two arms missing, if we instruct people that cannot see to set the gaze without fixing, we are kind of insulting the very people that cannot see...

One armed woman should sit with one arm, legless man flies, wooden man sings as stone woman dances, blind man does not require eyes to see.

Hi Lisa,
In general, I think a respectful tone is appropriate in this forum. Our teachers offer these teachings for free. They spend many hours every week in service to this Sangha. I think they do not deserve to be met with an aggressive and disrespectful tone here.
Gassho,
Myozan

I have the same problem but with my hands. My hands and arms are not able to flex in a way that I may be allowed to have my hands face down mudralike without disconfort, and some pain. I have tried but, to be able to relax, in the longrun, I end up with myhands face down and on my hips. I feel bad because I would like to be able to put my hands in the mudra possition like most of everyone elase. Any pointers?

I have the same problem but with my hands. My hands and arms are not able to flex in a way that I may be allowed to have my hands face down mudralike without disconfort, and some pain. I have tried but, to be able to relax, in the longrun, I end up with myhands face down and on my hips. I feel bad because I would like to be able to put my hands in the mudra possition like most of everyone elase. Any pointers?

Might you send neck down a photo of your trying to sit in Mudra? Do you have a large mid-section or shorter arms by any chance? Unusual lack of flex in the wrists?

we all can only work with the physical hardware we have. It's a little bit hard (at least for me) to visualize the exact problem you have with your hands, but I know the mudra can be problematic due to some people sitting with me in my local Zen group. Can you maybe make a video?

Btw. a photograph in your profile and a heartfelt "Gassho" or "kind regards" at the end of your posts would be very much appreciated.

Great thread everyone! I tend to sit in the Seiza posture, though I will resort to Burmese when discomfort seems to allude to physical harm. The Way is practice. Like any kind or practice, one just has to practice, practice, practice. Initially I could only keep the Seiza posture for five minutes or so. After repeating it over and over, the time (haha... time) increases (haha... increases). That being said, this body is not a Lotus position kinda body, unless I make some kind of sophisticated machine to lock my legs in place. I would just suggest to sit naturally. A little discomfort can be beneficial from time to time, but you'll know when it's too much. The hurdle I deal with most when sitting is keeping the eyes partially open. Relaxation can tempt you into closing the eyes and going with it. On the surface, that's not terrible, but when the lids fall shut the mind takes it as a cue to wander into a dream state, which is not our practice.

Sorry I didn't want to be disrespectful in any way by not finishing my posts with saying Gassho, nor by not having my picture in my avatar. Will try to put a picture in my avatar as soon as I get home and will be more careful with the courtesy in this forum. Gassho

And sometimes we all need a little push, a harsh word, to be corrected. This, of course, should be done with respect too.

thank you for your reply Myozan Kodo. I realize I'm veering off-topic here, so will conclude with this post.

can more be said about the use of the harsh word in our tradition? doubtless due to my personal psychological bent, this often seems to become an issue for me, at times in fact, a real show-stopper. I recognize this as pointing directly at something I must realize doesn't exist, but don't see it getting bullied away anytime soon.

thank you for your reply Myozan Kodo. I realize I'm veering off-topic here, so will conclude with this post.

can more be said about the use of the harsh word in our tradition? doubtless due to my personal psychological bent, this often seems to become an issue for me, at times in fact, a real show-stopper. I recognize this as pointing directly at something I must realize doesn't exist, but don't see it getting bullied away anytime soon.

deep bows back at ya,

gassho,

Robt

Hi Rob,

This has come up from time to time ...

Ummon suddenly raised his voice and said, "I spare you thirty
blows. You may now retire." Tokusan used to swing
his big stick whenever he came out to preach in the
hall, saying, "If you utter a word I will give you thirty
blows; if you utter not a word, just the same, thirty
blows on your head." This was all he would say.

I wrote this awhile back ...

[The mildly violent] flavor is mostly associated with the "hard" style of some Rinzai lineages, but also some people in the Soto school. The Harada-Yasutani Lineage, for example, is known for traditionally being "tough".

Others in Zen Buddhism ... seek the way of non-violence, gentleness, peace. The ego is tamed and transcended, not by a frontal assault, but by removing the fuel which fires it. This is perhaps the majority view now. I am of that school (Nishijima even refuses to use the Kyosaku stick, and I do too). As I sometimes say ...

A trickle of water and easy wind can pierce a stone wall or a mountain, as can dynamite. But the latter often ends up making a broken mess of things, and pieces hard to put back together.

But different patients require finely prescribed medicines, expedient means. One Zafu does not fit all. Some require a firm hand, some a gentle encouragement. One may need to tightly rope and strike a wild bull, yet offer sugar to catch a bird.

Taigu often has a tongue like a Kyosaku stick! He is not afraid to verbally slap all of us when we need to be set right. We don't physically slap around here, largely because our "beyond distance" format makes that impossible, but also because we believe that physical violence can be like playing with dynamite and easily abused. Even verbal chastising crossing into abuse and manipulation is a risk, so a firm tongue lashing should be carefully done.

I prefer mostly positive encouragement and calm explanation, although I can be quite firm myself (just ask my son what happens when he doesn't feed the cat after reminding!) In fact, me, Taigu and most Teachers I know switch off according to the situation ... the same fellow sometimes offering a slap on the backside, sometimes a gentle hand on the shoulder, sometimes an embrace. http://www.treeleaf.org/forums/showt...l=1#post113375

Dogen cautioned this, while recognizing that there are times for "tough love" and a grandmother's scolding tongue ...

In an evening talk Dogen said,

Do not use foul language to scold or slander monks. Even if they are bad or dishonest, do not harbor hatred against them nor abuse them thoughtlessly. First of all, no matter how bad they may be, when more than four monks gather together [the traditional number considered a Buddhist community], they form a sangha, which is a priceless treasure of the country. This should be most highly respected and honored. If you are an abbot or a senior priest or even a master or a teacher, if your disciples are wrong, you have to instruct and guide them with a compassionate and parental [grandmotherly] heart. In doing so, however, when you slap those who should be slapped or scold those who should be scolded, do not allow yourself to vilify them or arouse feelings of hatred.

When my late master Nyojo [Dogen's Teacher in China] was the abbot of Tendo Monastery, while the monks were sitting zazen in the sodo (monks hall), he slapped them with his slipper or scolded them with harsh words in order to keep them awake. Yet each of them was thankful to be hit and highly respected him.

Once in a formal speech he said, “I have gotten old. I should have retired from the monastery and moved into a hermitage to care for myself in my old age. Nevertheless, I am the abbot and your teacher, whose duty is to break the delusions of each one of you and to transmit the Way; therefore, I sometimes use harsh language to scold you, or beat you with the bamboo stick. I regret having to do this. However, this is the way to enable the dharma to flourish in place of the Buddha. Brothers, please have compassion on me and forgive me for my deeds.”

Upon hearing these words, all of us shed tears. Only with such a spirit can you teach and propagate the dharma. Even though you may be an abbot or senior priest, it is wrong to govern the community and abuse the monks as if they were your personal belongings. Further, if you are not in such a position, you should not point out others’ faults or speak ill of them. You must be very, very careful.

When you see someone’s faults and think they are wrong and wish to instruct them with compassion, you must find a skillful means to avoid arousing their anger, and do so as if you were talking about something else.

Sensei, Roshi, (spiritual) friend, I don't know...IMHO the highest form of respect one can show is to put the teachings of ones teachers into practice, to fully live by them (or at least to try it as good as possible).
Titles are categories, words, hulls.

When I give Jundo or Taigu a title, don't I reduce them to a certain role? They are more than teachers, they are fathers, sons, men, etc.
So why not stick with just Jundo and Taigu? It's short, it's simple, it's not formal, it's open.
To each their own, of course, that's just my view.