Brokenheart R1: @mylittlefascist vs @mr_ingenuity (Open for Votes)

Crazy for Chocolate Hearts (Item Hunt) 4 Slots

Everyone loves chocolate, right? Me too! In this match, whoever brings the most chocolate hearts to me, your overlord, will be crowned the victor. Where are the hearts found? In everybody! Farm from soldiers or rip the hearts out of your opponents to gain the most hearts! There will be 99 armed modern U.S. Army soldiers spread out across the battlefield. They cannot be affected during the prep stage. Whoever collects the most hearts in 2 hours will be crowned the victor. Soldiers will be treated as NPCs so taking their hearts will not involve a moral dilemma.

Hits hard enough to one shot Ragnarok (note the third page). Ragnarok is a cyborg Thor clone while not in Thor's strength class having been one shotted by Herc, it is stronger than Luke Cage.

Speed

Danny has very noticeable speed. And form the feats he's demonstrated over the years I would consider him among the fastest street level characters.

The thug though he was being tough by stating "Lesee if you can outrun a bullet!" Which Danny nonchalantly bullet times.

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Although bullet timing is a causal feat for Danny & any character in his tier. But I'm incline to state Danny's speed is more consistent than most characters. Having outpaced a bullet as early as the 70's.

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Also outpaced a point blank bullet as recent as 2015, & in the process saves someone's life.

Danny is capable of maintaining this level of when the need arises.

However that level of speed wouldn't be impressive if Danny couldn't uses it where it counts most. So a demonstration is in order. Note this display is done under water making it slightly more impressive.

Durability

Danny's most common displays of durability comes in the form of explosive & blunt force durability. However his chi does give increase resistance against heat/radiation & piercing/slashing weapons.

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Chi

Chi doesn't only increase stats (as shown above) it also increases Danny's senses. Also grants him increased healing, although negligible.

Oz Vessalius:

Once a sentient plush toy owned by Alice, he is now a body jumping eldritch abomination. Need I say more?

Speed & Strength:

One of Oz's main enemies throughout the series are the Soul Reapers. The Soul Reapers each have superhuman physical stats, with even nameless fodder being able to strike hard enough to smash through stone pillars. Echo/Zwei for example (one of the soul reapers) has shown to be capable of scooting out of the way of a bullet (from a sitting position), and tanking a hit from an abyssal creature that was able to shatter a stone bridge:

Oz however, is shown to be significantly stronger and faster than them. Not only able to intercept Echo's attack before she even noticed he was in the vicinity, but he was also essentially able to manhandle her in strength with ease:

In the following scans, Oz takes on a chain known as a "Humpty Dumpty". These monsters have tongues that move fast enough to intercept bullets and decapitate people. To Oz however, the tongues are practically at a stand-still, as he has shown to be fully capable of blitzing one despite not moving until right before the tongue connects with his neck:

He also scales to Cheshire and Mad Hatter, who were capable of producing a massive shock-wave via a mid air clash:

Sensing:

In this scene, Oz and Alice sense the presence of a mind-controller activating her abilities:

Alice herself (who had some of Oz's powers at the time) was also able to sense Oz's contact with the pocket watch, despite being in an entirely different dimension. One that doesn't even exist in the same time-flow:

With enough concentration, Oz was able to pinpoint Alice's exact location:

Oz's most impressive sensing feat however, is when he was able to sense a hidden pocket dimension created by the "Jurors".

The Jurors are essentially outer gods, likely inspired by HP Lovecraft's "Court of Azathoth". Each is assigned to a single outer world, and are given complete control over that dimension. They are powerful reality warpers who can literally rewrite time as easily as an Author would edit a novel:

The Perfect Date:

Due to the aforementioned perk, one member of my team has been allowed to prep on the battlefield for 12 hours.

The one chosen for this task, shall be none other than Oz. His task is a fairly simple one. Scout the area and take note of the various spawn areas, and places in which large groups of soldiers have gathered.

Aiding him in this task, will be the summonable mount known as "Equus":

Equus has the power to travel vast distances through darkness. Here he uses Equus to teleport from the city back to headquarters; to escape an ambush along with the rest of the main trio:

Equus is also able to travel through dimensions. In this scene, Equus takes Oz and Gilbert from the human world to Cheshire Cat's limbo dimension:

Though Equus is not standard equipment in the truest sense, it has been allowed by the host:

With the ability to move through darkness, gaining intel and proper pathing/strategy should be a fairly simple task.

The Battle:

As this was supposed to be a scenario based CaV, I care little for facing my opponent or that lengthy respect thread he calls an opener.

Instead, I'll simply collect hearts and avoid contact unless he manages to force my hand. Given the nature of my team and their abilities, lets just say we are extremely slippery and forcing a confrontation will be no easy task.

Given Oz's little reconnaissance mission, we should already have an idea of where the soldiers are grouped up and a proper order in which to take them out whilst avoiding contact with your team. Again, my team is capable of teleporting vast distances via shadows, so instantly moving from group to group should be a simple task. Especially since my team has so many ways of clearing out an entire room with ease.

Alice will be sent to the group of soldiers the furthest from your team's spawning point. Alice carried mystical jacks that home in on targets, dicing them into pieces. With these, she can pretty much clear out an entire room full of soldiers just by tossing them in:

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In addition to this, she has a mirror that can render her mostly invisible (save for her shadow and glint from her knife):

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As well as rapidly teleporting short distances and dicing apart her opponents:

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Should she ever need help from Oz, she can simple scream. Considering her screams can knockback large monsters, I think it's safe to say he'd be able to hear it and use Equus to instantly transport himself to her location. Actually, a single scream would probably kill or incapacitate every soldier in the vicinity. Real life humans can't take sound wave capable of knocking back large structures.

Oz's job on the other hand, is to take out the soldiers closer to where your team is located. Much like Alice, he can clear out a room full of soldiers near instantly:

As you can see in the above scan, even a small burst of movement from Oz, is enough to cause large gusts of wind throughout the room. Furthermore, the monsters in the scan are the same ones from the Speed & Strength section of my post that were capable of deflecting bullets with their tongues. Yet not a single one of them was capable of reacting to Oz's assault.

As the goal here is to get in and get out before your team fights their way to my location, Oz may simply opt to have Equus incinerate any soldiers that Oz does not feel he has the time to kill and collect hearts from.

Doing so will prevent your team from collecting their hearts, and further putting my team ahead in the race.

Once our position of having collected the most hearts is secure, all we have to do is avoid contact with your team by teleporting around the base or even outside of it (I saw no rules regarding leaving the base)

Similarly, if Oz feels inclined, he can simply have Equus drop your team into their shadows and send them to another part of the base or some distance outside of it:

Summary:

Unlike your team, mine is built for taking on objectives.

Our superior mobility should allow us to collect the most hearts by instantly teleporting from group to group.

By incinerating bodies we are not comfortable collecting, we can deny your team hearts; thus pushing us further into the lead.

As Oz has displayed powerful sensing abilities, he should be capable of detecting the general direction and proximity of your team (Especially the Iron Fist, who may as well hold up a sign with bright neon lights that says "we're over here!").

Given that my team is made up of 2 teleporters, one of which can go invisible, I see no reason why we can't simply collect our hearts and wait out the timer; without ever having to fight any member of your team.

Should be noted, that just because avoiding your team is the easiest strategy, does not mean we can't take them in a fight. I'll save our actual combat strategy for when you prove your team can force a confrontation with mine.

@mylittlefascist: I don't know what an opener is but my post is merely a character intro noted by the header and has nothing to do with the battle itself. However my reason for posting it is to get something up since Jack too long to answer my question.

Opening Strategy

My team will start at the attacking spawn since it's the closest spawn to the largest area. Which would mean most of the soldiers would be stationed there.

From what I gather Origin is the fastest in travel speed having supersonic feats. His first feat is him changing direction in the air by moving faster than sound in bursts.

This is greatly enhanced by his armor which allows him to do this for longer periods of time, with his only limitation is energy being energy consumption. Origin air steps as he outmaneuvers rail gun bullets.

Origin no longer has the problem of energy consumption. After calculating new laws in physics Origin overcame his energy dependence while fighting.

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So in 10 second moving at the speed of sound Origin can cover two miles which would be the whole length of the map. Although that isn't necessary since he only needs to kill 50 to 51 soldiers.

So once the fight starts Origin will dart out aiming for the largest group of soldiers while Danny will take care of any soldiers he bypassed. Danny is only comic book peak human in travel speed so he doesn't have much choice.

Considering the map getting to all the soldiers will be easy since most of them will be ground level as the above walkways are too narrow. So Origin can clear most of the soldiers and make one leap to the higher platforms to clear the rest.

My team will undoubtedly bag the most hearts since both teams are avoiding a fight, with my team having better travel speed.

@mr_ingenuity: Is there any statements regarding how fast the individual bullets are moving, or are we going purely by the amount of shots per second here? Also, can I see the statement you're going off of that leads you to believe that the bullets are not hypersonic/slower than normal railguns?

@mylittlefascist: There is more in favor of it being supersonic than hypersonic, I know you're seeking every avenue to disqualify my character. But there isn't any unless you read the series an could make a case for my character being faster than supersonic.

However I won't deny you info, since it works in my favor either way.

Gon railgun doesn't have the power to penetrate steel. Even while rather thick a hypersonic railgun firing multiple wouldn't have taken multiple shots to only dent a steel door.

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Another thing that is havely noted is the energy it takes to use their weapons and even move. Only the true Gon had enough energy to fire hypersonic railguns. So when his engine was destroyed he had to lower their output.

My Team's Speed:

Oz:

While it's true that my characters, being from more low-tech and less feat/action oriented settings, don't really have any instances of their speeds being explicitly clarified on panel as "supersonic"; we can still extrapolate, from the feats they have shown, that their travel speeds are likely supersonic or at least somewhere in that ballpark.

For example... Shockwaves are something that only happens with objects that are moving faster than sound. We know for a fact that high tier Pandora Hearts characters produce shock-waves when they collide:

We've even seen them cause air pressure and debris from raw movement speed:

Furthermore, Cheshire has shown to be able to bounce around the room at massive speeds, dodging 3 bullets in the process (unfortunately I was unable to make gifs before the youtube copyright crackdown. The anime version of the scene made it a lot more clear that he was moving at speeds comparable to if not surpassing the bullets):

We know Cheshire, Mad Hatter, Glenn, and Oz are all in the same ballpark; as each have them has fought on even terms with at least 2 of the others.

We also know Echo/Zwei can percieve and react to bullets, as she was able to dodge one from a sitting position (In the anime, she was even able to block a bullet with her puppet strings):

Yet, Oz was able completely intercept her, despite not even being anywhere in sight, prior to her dash (he was in a completely different part of the city, last we saw of him):

Alice:

Much like Oz, Alice also regularly deals with shock-waves. We have seen her perceive doll-maker's strikes in slow motion:

In addition to this, she is able to rapidly teleport with 0 issues regarding fatigue.

Counters:

From what I gather Origin is the fastest in travel speed having supersonic feats. His first feat is him changing direction in the air by moving faster than sound in bursts.

I don't know how he's accomplishing "kicking the air" but I don't see where in the scan it shows that he's moving "faster than sound". Unless you're arguing that he's moving so fast he's able to kick off the air? Because if so, that's some pretty physics breaking speeds right there.

In any case, if we assume what you say is true and that he's not only moving faster than sound, but is also "only" moving "supersonic", it still presents a bit of an issue here.

The rules regarding the supersonic speed limit is for "travel speed". Travel speed, as in your ability to hit max speed and use it to cross large distances; much like how a normal human can fly a supersonic plane.

The second you're able to instantly accelerate to those supersonic speeds, instantly change direction, maneuver tight spaces, and even react to attacks (without slowing down); it becomes "combat" speeds.

Whenever Bradley advances towards gunfire, he clearly needs to slow himself down (as soldiers are able to track his movements to some degree) in order to give himself time to actually react to the individual shots being taken:

As you can see, it not only failed to penetrate that small piece of steel (also failed to penetrate 3 quarters stacked together), but it also failed to create dents anywhere near the size of the craters in that steel door.

Even if we assume those pellets are only moving at mach 4, the fact that your character can react to them while sprinting directly towards them at supersonic speeds, would put his reactions into the hypersonic range.

You also tried to use the fact that it can fire "hundreds of bullets in an instant" to scale it to supersonic speeds. Now, I can't really comment on the relationship between firing rate and projectile speed, but since you brought up the argument in the first place; I'll point out that even high end miniguns only fire about 6000 rounds per minute (100 per second) tops:

Your guy is shooting "hundreds" (plural) in an "instant" (as in, possibly even faster than a second). That's not even taking into account that miniguns have MULTIPLE BARRELS! Meanwhile your "hundreds of rounds in an instant" scan seems to be in reference to a single barrel. That right there are some absurd speeds.

Another thing that is havely noted is the energy it takes to use their weapons and even move. Only the true Gon had enough energy to fire hypersonic railguns. So when his engine was destroyed he had to lower their output.

So... You're telling me that the full powered version of the weapon being used, can kill everyone in the tunnel with the raw shockwave?

Not even mach 7 railguns can kill people with the raw shockwave, as far as I am aware. And that's with shooting massive slugs.

I am sorry, but simply being a vague amount weaker than the above scan is really not convincing me that these things are "only supersonic in speed".

Lets think about this logically or a second here.

Railguns are NOT energy efficient weapons. Not even in universe are they considered energy efficient. So if the railguns in your post really are only as powerful as normal bullets, why on Earth are these cyborgs not just using normal firearms? Why something as energy inefficient as a railgun (that's supposedly no more powerful than conventional firearms), when you can get your hands on gunpowder based firearms that can tear off limbs through sheer kickback?

In fact, why is a guy who can tank high calibur firearms,( without the use of this high tech powersuit):

even bothering to evade BB sized bullets, if those bullets aren't moving at significantly greater speeds to make up for the loss in mass?

This also isn't even the only instance of him being possibly over limits.

Earlier in the CaV you said he was able to throw rods with the force of "1 million joules". That's 368 tons of force (the limits are 20 tons):

Granted, it also says he is only throwing them at "350 KM/H", so... I don't know...

Then there's also the whole "denting Gold-Platinum Alloy" feat. You realize, MCU Ironman (the character used as the durability limit for this tourney) only has Gold-Titanium Alloy, right? Your character dented armor "100 times the durability of steel" with a punch, while the limit for durability is Iron-Man, whose armor is only "4 times the durability of steel". Granted, we're using real world durability here rather than the actual feats presented, but... That's the argument you made, and that's all we have to go on at the moment.

The Battle:

All in all, I don't think much has changed regarding our strategy. Even if we give your character the benefit of the doubt and say he's "faster than Oz & Alice, but not so fast that he's beyond limits", the speed gap really shouldn't be enough for him to overcome the fact that:

My characters teleport

You have 1 character competing against 2 of mine

That's not even getting into the fact that my characters both have ways of clearing out entire rooms with a single AOE.

For example, Oz's chain projectiles are clearly faster than him, as they were able to wipe out multiple bullet timing monsters before either of them could react:

He's even used them to catch Glenn Baskerville off-guard:

Again, the above character getting taken off guard by the chain is the same character who has been able to match both Mad Hatter and Cheshire in combat speeds:

Both Hatter and Cheshire are so fast that they can casually dodge bullets from near point blank ranges and strike hard enough to create large shock-waves:

Summary:

The only character you're actually using in this, is in all likely-hood, over limits.

Even if we gave your character the benefit of the doubt and declare him "within limits"; he still has to somehow overcome the fact that both of my characters have also shown to be roughly supersonic in travel speed, while also being able to teleport, and instantly clear rooms via AOE.

Overall, I think my characters should win this competition pretty easily. We have Alice who can rapidly teleport and clear rooms just by screaming. We have Oz who can instantly appear in the middle of a group of soldiers, and wipe them all out with a chain spam AOE. Both of these characters are already around the supersonic range in travel speed. Really, the only way your lone character should be able to overcome these odds via sheer speed and nothing else; is if he is over limits. So, yea...

Rebuttal I

While it's true that my characters, being from more low-tech and less feat/action oriented settings, don't really have any instances of their speeds being explicitly clarified on panel as "supersonic"; we can still extrapolate, from the feats they have shown, that their travel speeds are likely supersonic or at least somewhere in that ballpark.

Just state calculate, that's what is being done when you infer information to gauge speed. Although I would consider what you did rather lite since you use visual representation to assume the speed.

Furthermore, Cheshire has shown to be able to bounce around the room at massive speeds, dodging 3 bullets in the process (unfortunately I was unable to make gifs before the youtube copyright crackdown. The anime version of the scene made it a lot more clear that he was moving at speeds comparable to if not surpassing the bullets):

This isn't supersonic it's blurr speed, which means he's moving to fast to comprehend to the character shooting. An I'm correct in that assessment due to the fact that the character is moving in every panel the bullet is being shot.

If that is the standard for supersonic movement Danny has been doing that in his classic days.

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We also know Echo/Zwei can percieve and react to bullets, as she was able to dodge one from a sitting position (In the anime, she was even able to block a bullet with her puppet strings):

Yet, Oz was able completely intercept her, despite not even being anywhere in sight, prior to her dash (he was in a completely different part of the city, last we saw of him):

Reaction speed isn't the same as movement or striking speed, street level characters are notorious for reacting faster than they can strike. If this were the case Oz would be moving at hypersonic speed to intercept the above strike.

You stated Oz wasn't anywhere in sight and city blocks away. Too put that speed into perspective it takes sound roughly 1 millisecond for sound to move a foot. Oz would have move over 100 meters in one to two milliseconds the attack would have happened.

So what you did here is a classic case of shooting yourself in the foot.

Much like Oz, Alice also regularly deals with shock-waves. We have seen her perceive doll-maker's strikes in slow motion:

Even her own strikes have proven capable of producing shockwaves:

In addition to this, she is able to rapidly teleport with 0 issues regarding fatigue.

Alice is all game play so I don't know what to make of her speed or feats in general. But I don't need to contest it since it isn't travel speed and the fact she is stay near her spawn.

I don't know how he's accomplishing "kicking the air" but I don't see where in the scan it shows that he's moving "faster than sound". Unless you're arguing that he's moving so fast he's able to kick off the air? Because if so, that's some pretty physics breaking speeds right there.

In any case, if we assume what you say is true and that he's not only moving faster than sound, but is also "only" moving "supersonic", it still presents a bit of an issue here.

Physics breaking isn't a sufficient retort to feats, you would need to tell me what laws are being broken that are in direct conflict with the feat. Such as a character moving faster than time and not being considered time traveling. In that instance basic math won't apply to them let alone physics.

What is there to assume that isn't shown in the feat? Are you trying to tell me you need visual representation of sound being broken for you to take this as supersonic? The feat of a character kicking off air to outmaneuver railgun bullets isn't enough to state they are moving their legs at supersonic speed.

I mean I can show Origin's air kicks break the surroundings via shockwaves but I would also like for you to state what is the misunderstanding.

Also going by your assessment of bouncing around the room at super speed to aim dodge, this would most certainly be supersonic.

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The rules regarding the supersonic speed limit is for "travel speed". Travel speed, as in your ability to hit max speed and use it to cross large distances; much like how a normal human can fly a supersonic plane.

The second you're able to instantly accelerate to those supersonic speeds, instantly change direction, maneuver tight spaces, and even react to attacks (without slowing down); it becomes "combat" speeds.

Yes combat speed is the umbrella term that covers perception, reaction, and travel speed.

The combat/reaction speed limits for this tourney are intended to be around "King Bradley" tier. King Bradley can weave his way through automatic gunfire. He can also move at presumably supersonic speeds. What he cannot do however, is weave through hailstorms of bullets, while sprinting at "supersonic speeds" directly at the shooter. Remember, the faster you run towards something, the faster it is also heading towards you.

Wrath doesn't move at supersonic speed so I'm not following.

Whenever Bradley advances towards gunfire, he clearly needs to slow himself down (as soldiers are able to track his movements to some degree) in order to give himself time to actually react to the individual shots being taken:

Wrath isn't slowing himself down and I'm not sure what gave you that assumption. Fodder reacting to Wrath cutting bullets just means his blade is moving supersonic however Wrath is not. If Wrath were moving at a constant supersonic speed he would be faster than sight to them and the scene would play out differently.

This is all completely ignoring the fact that the gunfire your character is doing this to are not normal firearms, but bullets being sprayed out by a Railgun.

Military grade Railgun bullets are generally hypersonic in speed. You say these are slower, but.. I'm not really seeing it.

This isn't proving anything, and you even tried to call me out for the same argument you use below.

I however have proof all railguns in-verse aren't hypersonic even if you disregard what I have already shown.

Origin has a railgun strapped to his back that fire supersonic projectiles at best.

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The fact they can dent a blast door to that degree in itself, shows that they are moving a hell of a lot faster than modern firearms.

I mean we agree on that but that isn't enough to state they are hypersonic.

As you can see, it not only failed to penetrate that small piece of steel (also failed to penetrate 3 quarters stacked together), but it also failed to create dents anywhere near the size of the craters in that steel door.

This isn't a 1 to 1 comparison and you should know that. Starting off we don't know what type of material the railgun is firing, which plays a big factor in it denting steel. The next major point is denting the door to that extent took repeated railgun shots for an unspecified amount of time. So if you're going to use denting the door as definitive of hypersonic speed, you can't leave out important factors.

Even if we assume those pellets are only moving at mach 4, the fact that your character can react to them while sprinting directly towards them at supersonic speeds, would put his reactions into the hypersonic range.

You also tried to use the fact that it can fire "hundreds of bullets in an instant" to scale it to supersonic speeds. Now, I can't really comment on the relationship between firing rate and projectile speed, but since you brought up the argument in the first place; I'll point out that even high end miniguns only fire about 6000 rounds per minute (100 per second) tops

Your guy is shooting "hundreds" (plural) in an "instant" (as in, possibly even faster than a second). That's not even taking into account that miniguns have MULTIPLE BARRELS! Meanwhile your "hundreds of rounds in an instant" scan seems to be in reference to a single barrel. That right there are some absurd speeds.

Why would you assume mach 4 unless, that wouldn't even be the minimum you would use to start an assumption on speed. Objectively if you were going to assume you would go for mach 2 through 3 since that is reasonably above a standard bullet and objectively low.

What? "It shoots multiple bullets so fast it sounds like a single shot, that's supersonic." You had access to my post at every point before you made this post and you still misstated my position.

Also you can't use standard firing mechanics when applying rate of fire to a railgun. A railgun doesn't need to chamber the next round as it can stack them and fire them one at a time or all at once.

On the point of Origin describing the weapon the barrel numbers don't matter since the bullets are fired from the shoulder and branch off to the fingers. So hundreds of bullets in an instant would be the all the bullets in total.

Lets think about this logically or a second here.

This doesn't work unless you know the context of the story.

Railguns are NOT energy efficient weapons. Not even in universe are they considered energy efficient. So if the railguns in your post really are only as powerful as normal bullets, why on Earth are these cyborgs not just using normal firearms? Why something as energy inefficient as a railgun (that's supposedly no more powerful than conventional firearms), when you can get your hands on gunpowder based firearms that can tear off limbs through sheer kickback?

In fact, why is a guy who can tank high calibur firearms,( without the use of this high tech powersuit):

even bothering to evade BB sized bullets, if those bullets aren't moving at significantly greater speeds to make up for the loss in mass?

Origin doesn't tank things without reason, considering he's trying to hide his existence as a robot. Which leads to the next point he was given a command to protect Mai the girl he saves. Even tho she meant it as a joke he took it as his life's goal. So because it's Mai who was in the line of fire did he act to shield her.

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Also the suit is less durable than origin when it comes to bullets. I called it armor due to its ability to tank point blank grenades, which is something I haven't seen Origin do.

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However in-verse the only thing the suit adds is muscles/strength it doesn't actually increase his durability. When Origin was thrown by another explosion he only noted his appearance would be damaged. Which is everything to him when hiding in plain sight.

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This also isn't even the only instance of him being possibly over limits.

Earlier in the CaV you said he was able to throw rods with the force of "1 million joules". That's 368 tons of force (the limits are 20 tons):

Foot-pound isn't force its energy it isn't listed as a unit of force and you can check. I'm not sure how you missed that considering it states energy at the top of the conversion calculator on google.

so... I don't know..

That makes sense.

Then there's also the whole "denting Gold-Platinum Alloy" feat. You realize, MCU Ironman (the character used as the durability limit for this tourney) only has Gold-Titanium Alloy, right? Your character dented armor "100 times the durability of steel" with a punch, while the limit for durability is Iron-Man, whose armor is only "4 times the durability of steel". Granted, we're using real world durability here rather than the actual feats presented, but... That's the argument you made, and that's all we have to go on at the moment.

MCU Iron Man is the durability limit with this feat alone. There is really no discussion if Origin is smashing that with a back hand.

All in all, I don't think much has changed regarding our strategy. Even if we give your character the benefit of the doubt and say he's "faster than Oz & Alice, but not so fast that he's beyond limits", the speed gap really shouldn't be enough for him to overcome the fact that:

My characters teleport

You have 1 character competing against 2 of mine

Isn't your character beyond the limit?

The teleportation you have shown is slow and or short distance.

I think you are misunderstanding the nature of this competition. Both teams are avoiding a fight unless one intrudes on the others space/spawn point then it becomes a fight. So with how it's set up now it's who's closer to the largest group and how faster are they.

Since the largest part of the map is near the attackers spawn my team would have the advantage of the largest group of soldiers being near.

Now for how fast is everyone's characters. Origin is the only one I'm really debating getting the lion share of hearts with his supersonic travel speed. So that does it for me. You have a character over the limit in speed with the one feat you've shown. Although without that he's slow in travel speed than origin. Then there is Alice with her gameplay feats and if that is it for feats then she's slower than Danny.

The only advantage you can claim in this is AOE but that won't net your team the most kill due to my team being near the larger groups. Which is why I asked would team spawn in the original map spawns since one side of the map is bigger than the other.

@jacthripper: I would like to bring into question is Oz within the limits, he seemingly is hypersonic based on the summery in this post

In looking at it, it's heavily based on the concept that those are shockwaves of actuality, and not merely artistic addition. Please also keep in mind that manga as well as comic book writers have no proper education in the higher laws of physics. They don't understand that doing such things requires such force, they just want to emphasize that their characters are strong and that the battle is epic. Some of those feats can also be attributed to game mechanics and highballing. I'd ask for the moment that you continue the debate, however, I will keep a close eye on the match.

Counters:

This isn't supersonic it's blurr speed, which means he's moving to fast to comprehend to the character shooting. An I'm correct in that assessment due to the fact that the character is moving in every panel the bullet is being shot.

Okay, first off... Being "too fast to comprehend for the character shooting" is actually really damn impressive. The shooter, Gilbert, is actually a Soul Reaper. As in, his stats should be comparable to Echo/Zwei as well as other Reapers throughout the series. Hell, the dude has even 1-upped one of the bullet timing feats you showed for Iron Fist, right here; where he had to cross a solid room's length of distance to intercept the shot:

He was able to duck out of a tongue slash from one of the Humpty Dumtpies (also tackling Elliot out of the way in the process- Elliot has also reacted to a revolver shot in close quarters), he reacted to the Bandersnatch (which has dodged bullets), and we've also seen him surrounded by armed attackers only for them to have all been shot dead by the end of a quick scene cut.

In any case, this is only secondary evidence to the fact that, once again, Cheshire can cause large shockwaves when colliding in mid air:

@jacthripper: I would like to bring into question is Oz within the limits, he seemingly is hypersonic based on the summery in this post

In looking at it, it's heavily based on the concept that those are shockwaves of actuality, and not merely artistic addition. Please also keep in mind that manga as well as comic book writers have no proper education in the higher laws of physics. They don't understand that doing such things requires such force, they just want to emphasize that their characters are strong and that the battle is epic. Some of those feats can also be attributed to game mechanics and highballing. I'd ask for the moment that you continue the debate, however, I will keep a close eye on the match.

We know they are actual shockwaves, because we can visibly see the mirrors shattering in the background.

Creating shockwaves is a supersonic feat. No, it does not make them hypersonic as even normal cannons have shattered glass via proximity:

If that is the standard for supersonic movement Danny has been doing that in his classic days.

The amount of distance he is making in that scan is a joke compared to Cheshire's dashes, and he was nowhere near as "blured" given that the shooters were clearly following his movements with their aim; they just couldn't quite line up their shots properly.

Reaction speed isn't the same as movement or striking speed, street level characters are notorious for reacting faster than they can strike. If this were the case Oz would be moving at hypersonic speed to intercept the above strike.

There is literally no reason to assume a character can't utilize the same speed they use to dodge something as when they strike.

At no point was I arguing that Echo was supersonic. She's a very low end bullet timer, that is all. I was merely pointing out the fact that despite being able to react to bullets, she was incapable of perceiving his approach and managed to intercept her attack faster than she could react.

You stated Oz wasn't anywhere in sight and city blocks away. Too put that speed into perspective it takes sound roughly 1 millisecond for sound to move a foot. Oz would have move over 100 meters in one to two milliseconds the attack would have happened.

I said he was nowhere in sight. Being city blocks away was simply the "last we saw of him", as in some time had passed since we last followed his PoV. We don't know how far away he was when he dashed in to intercept, but we do know it was far enough away that he wasn't anywhere in scene until the very last moment, in which he stopped Zwei's knife.

What is there to assume that isn't shown in the feat? Are you trying to tell me you need visual representation of sound being broken for you to take this as supersonic? The feat of a character kicking off air to outmaneuver railgun bullets isn't enough to state they are moving their legs at supersonic speed.

I'm assuming that last sentence was also supposed to end in a question mark?

The confusion is that, at the time, I wasn't sure if his ability to kick off the air was done through raw stats; or some sort of device/ability that let him treat the air as a solid. For example, Alice can also jump on air, but it's presented as some sort of air manipulation ability: https://zippy.gfycat.com/MindlessAdmirableKusimanse.webm

Let me put it this way. We have achieved projectiles all the way up to Mach 7 in speed (even further if you count rockets), yet not a single one of these projectiles are capable of moving so fast that the air itself becomes a solid object capable of stopping the projectile's motion on it's own.

You're telling me that your guy can kick with so much speed, that the raw friction from the air; is able to generate enough traction to send his body flying off at at supersonic speeds, in a completely different direction?

Or better yet... That he can kick with so much speed, that it not only STOPS his already supersonic inertia, but also creates enough traction from air friction alone, to once again; send his body off at "supersonic speeds", in a completely different direction?

You're telling me that your guy can do all of the above, yet he's only "supersonic" in speed? Really now?

Wrath isn't slowing himself down and I'm not sure what gave you that assumption. Fodder reacting to Wrath cutting bullets just means his blade is moving supersonic however Wrath is not. If Wrath were moving at a constant supersonic speed he would be faster than sight to them and the scene would play out differently.

Either way, arguing down the character who was used as the limit for combat speed, is only going to help my argument.

I mean we agree on that but that isn't enough to state they are hypersonic.

If they are faster than the bullets King Bradley was weaving through, then your character is above the combat speed limit. Actually, even being the same speed would put your character above the King Bradley speed limit; simply due how many were being sprayed out at once. That's not even getting into the fact that your character was weaving through them while advancing at "supersonic speeds".

his isn't a 1 to 1 comparison and you should know that. Starting off we don't know what type of material the railgun is firing, which plays a big factor in it denting steel.

I don't see why we should assume the bullets are any sort of special super material, unless stated otherwise.

Even if we assume the rail gun bullets are, like say, made of tungsten; which I suppose is reasonable given that it seems to be a decently recurring material in this setting; it really shouldn't make much of a difference.

The core things that effect the impact force of a projectile, outside of speed, are hardness and weight.

The steel BB pellets were already capable of withstanding the impact force of mach 2.6 without the slightest bit of warping:

Thus, increasing the hardness would not have increased it's destructive power.

Tungsten is denser than steel, thus weighing more, and if we were dealing with larger caliber bullets; I am sure we would see a pretty significant change in impact forces... For little BB pellets on the other hand? The difference in weight would be pretty negligible. Granted, I don't have a clip comparing tungsten BBs to steel BBs; so if you have any way of proving I am underestimating how much of a change in power that would cause, I am all ears... err... eyes...

The next major point is denting the door to that extent took repeated railgun shots for an unspecified amount of time.

We can see the impact craters caused by each individual bullet.

Nothing about the scan you showed suggests he was shooting the door for some extended period of time. In fact, every argument you have made regarding how the railgun functions, would suggest it operates in instantaneous bursts.

Why would you assume mach 4 unless, that wouldn't even be the minimum you would use to start an assumption on speed. Objectively if you were going to assume you would go for mach 2 through 3 since that is reasonably above a standard bullet and objectively low.

Because... Mach 2.6 BBs failed to penetrate a few stacked quarters and were completely stopped by a thin piece of iron, and the creators caused by said impact, were no larger than the BBs themselves.

Your railgun bullets struck steel, and still managed to create massive craters, larger than the actual bullets were, and likely larger than what most conventional firearms, even when of a more standard-sized caliber, would be capable of making.

The speed difference here, is clearly quite large.

Also you can't use standard firing mechanics when applying rate of fire to a railgun. A railgun doesn't need to chamber the next round as it can stack them and fire them one at a time or all at once.

Alright, fair enough. You got me there, but it doesn't really change every other point that has been brought up.

This doesn't work unless you know the context of the story.

Railguns are NOT energy efficient weapons. Not even in universe are they considered energy efficient. So if the railguns in your post really are only as powerful as normal bullets, why on Earth are these cyborgs not just using normal firearms? Why something as energy inefficient as a railgun (that's supposedly no more powerful than conventional firearms), when you can get your hands on gunpowder based firearms that can tear off limbs through sheer kickback?

In fact, why is a guy who can tank high calibur firearms,( without the use of this high tech powersuit):

even bothering to evade BB sized bullets, if those bullets aren't moving at significantly greater speeds to make up for the loss in mass?

I like how you quoted both paragraphs, but only actually addressed the second part of it, while ignoring the main argument.

Foot-pound isn't force its energy it isn't listed as a unit of force and you can check. I'm not sure how you missed that considering it states energy at the top of the conversion calculator on google.

In other-words... Within a single throw, your character produced enough energy to move 368 tons a single foot.

MCU Iron Man is the durability limit with this feat alone. There is really no discussion if Origin is smashing that with a back hand.

I wouldn't know. Your only reference regarding how strong that strike is, was a link to how durable the material is IRL, which happens to be more durable than the material Iron Man's suit is made of... IRL...

The teleportation you have shown is slow and or short distance.

Slow based on what? The only one that's short distance is Alice's but her's is fast enough to be used to dodge supersonic punches:

Since the largest part of the map is near the attackers spawn my team would have the advantage of the largest group of soldiers being near.

Now for how fast is everyone's characters. Origin is the only one I'm really debating getting the lion share of hearts with his supersonic travel speed. So that does it for me. You have a character over the limit in speed with the one feat you've shown. Although without that he's slow in travel speed than origin. Then there is Alice with her gameplay feats and if that is it for feats then she's slower than Danny.

The only advantage you can claim in this is AOE but that won't net your team the most kill due to my team being near the larger groups. Which is why I asked would team spawn in the original map spawns since one side of the map is bigger than the other.

I'm sorry, what? Where does the OP say that that's where your characters spawn? He said we spawn in the normal spawn spots, but he did not say which team gets what. I had assumed it was random.

Just because one side of the map is bigger, does not mean that's where all the soldiers are. The soldiers could have spawned randomly, or they could have been deliberately placed to make sure that no spawn side had an advantage. Would be pretty screwed for the host to deliberately give one team an advantage over the other, would it not?

Even if we assume the characters were allowed to choose which spawn spots to take, yours have never been to this map, and wouldn't have the slightest clue as to where they should spawn. My team had prep and scouted out the map, and thus they would logically be the ones to choose the "best spawn point", assuming one was ever intended to exist.

I'll let @jacthripper decide if he wants to make an official ruling on this part or let voters decide.

Summary:

No matter how you look at it, your character's speed feats are WELL BEYOND what Bradley is capable of.

The fact that he can weave through "hundreds of bullets being fired off in an instant"; is enough to put him above Bradley, by itself.

The fact that he can sprint at supersonic speeds, directly towards the shooter, while maneuvering his way through a hailstorm of bullets, all without slowing down; is enough to put him above the speed limits, by itself.

The fact that all of these bullets are significantly faster than normal bullets (something you yourself admitted you agree with), if not downright hyper-sonic; is enough to put him above the King Bradley speed limit, by itself.

The fact that he moves so fast he can kick off the fricking air, is enough to put him higher than the King Bradley speed limit.

Putting all of these things together, makes your character FAR higher than the King Bradley speed limit, and there is no way around this. Even if we were to assume the bullets your character was weaving through were no faster than the ones Bradley had to weave through; you would still have to multiply the amount of bullets Bradley had to deal with dozens of times over, then have him sprint at supersonic speeds, straight through that hailstorm of gunfire; before it matched your speed feat.

Your character is over speed limits, end of story.

Now, we can pretend that he's still limits for the sake of debate. But again, if your character really is in limits, then the gap in speed between him and my characters; would not be enough to overcome the fact that he's racing to collect hearts against 2 characters who also have teleportation, high-speed ranged attacks, and AOE.

By focusing so much on Origin, you've basically handicapped your argument; making it so that the only way you can actually win this is if he is over limits in speed.

3 to 5 preferably. Not so much that it's a hassle to read, but enough to get the meat of the match in.

We both have 3 posts now, so I'm ready to go to voting whenever. I tend to burn out on CaVs pretty quickly, so I don't like going more than 3. @mr_ingenuity is free to make a 4th post before voting if he wants though, I don't mind having less posts.

And people wonder why Comic debaters hate Manga ones. The mediums are very different, but in the end, if we want to agree they are within limits, then voters should be noted that these characters are Spider Man level and not what the feats suggest I guess. I feel we should always play below a tourney limits, never toe the line of it.

And people wonder why Comic debaters hate Manga ones. The mediums are very different, but in the end, if we want to agree they are within limits, then voters should be noted that these characters are Spider Man level and not what the feats suggest I guess. I feel we should always play below a tourney limits, never toe the line of it.

T4V regardless.

I don't mind that. In fact, if the tourney is largely made up of bullet timers, and someone picks a character whose bullet timing is more vague or arguably less consistent (or even just solidly FTE but from a setting with no guns), I'll even go ahead and treat them as being on bullet timing level. The problem arises when you take a character who is definitely above speed limits, say you're only treating him as around the speed limits; but still hinge your entire argument on "I win cus raw speeeedddzzzzz" when your opponent's characters are reasonable close to those limits as well.

Outside the questionable feat calcs of being in limits or not, the battle strategy of the two are dead even. Mr I's one man army via the Origin character seems faster, and has larger groups to harvest hearts from. Zets two man team will teleport around and use AOE on smaller groups to harvest hearts. Too difficult to pick one over the other.

So with that said, the only way for me to pick a side is the format and posts themselves. Mr I Posts are very classic style of CV debates. Nothing wrong with it, as long the arguments of why you win out shine the others. Not the case here for me. So I am voting for Zets purely do to his post set up, and how easy it was to read breakdowns of the discussion. Also easier for me to go re read for specific things where the more classic style of Mr I took me longer.

Rebuttal II

There is literally no reason to assume a character can't utilize the same speed they use to dodge something as when they strike.

That is the distinct difference between reaction speed and combat speed. Also there is an obvious difference when you have characters such as Batman and Captain America who can't fight at the speeds they react at.

At no point was I arguing that Echo was supersonic. She's a very low end bullet timer, that is all. I was merely pointing out the fact that despite being able to react to bullets, she was incapable of perceiving his approach and managed to intercept her attack faster than she could react.

Well if you put it that way then it wouldn't require being supersonic in movement/combat speed. Wrath has done that to Ed and he's nowhere near supersonic in combat speed. Ed is also a low end bullet timer who couldn't see Wrath draw his sword to cut his spear.

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Then there are characters such as Gogon who can blitz Wolverine faster than he can perceive.

Even Spider-Man can blitz bullet timers.

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I said he was nowhere in sight. Being city blocks away was simply the "last we saw of him", as in some time had passed since we last followed his PoV. We don't know how far away he was when he dashed in to intercept, but we do know it was far enough away that he wasn't anywhere in scene until the very last moment, in which he stopped Zwei's knife.

I'm not sure how you're extrapolating supersonic from this unless you out right do a calculation.

The confusion is that, at the time, I wasn't sure if his ability to kick off the air was done through raw stats; or some sort of device/ability that let him treat the air as a solid. For example, Alice can also jump on air, but it's presented as some sort of air manipulation ability: https://zippy.gfycat.com/MindlessAdmirableKusimanse.webm

Let me put it this way. We have achieved projectiles all the way up to Mach 7 in speed (even further if you count rockets), yet not a single one of these projectiles are capable of moving so fast that the air itself becomes a solid object capable of stopping the projectile's motion on it's own.

You're telling me that your guy can kick with so much speed, that the raw friction from the air; is able to generate enough traction to send his body flying off at at supersonic speeds, in a completely different direction?

Or better yet... That he can kick with so much speed, that it not only STOPS his already supersonic inertia, but also creates enough traction from air friction alone, to once again; send his body off at "supersonic speeds", in a completely different direction?

You're telling me that your guy can do all of the above, yet he's only "supersonic" in speed? Really now?

Also no he isn't treating air as a solid or he would be able to outright fly, kicking off air is a trope in manga but that isn't specifically what Origin is doing by his own admissions. That's why I stated it as changing direction in the air by moving faster than sound in bursts.

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Just to reinforce the trope.

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The guy from a setting where characters have to account for the speed of soundwaves distorting their weapons, is able to move so fast, it breaks laws of motion and allow him to kick off the goddamn air; yet you think the writer intended for the feat to be only supersonic?

What is intended (which you don't know for a fact) and what is shown is two different things. Which is why writers intent can't be debated.

Wrath's perception speed is higher than his combat speed which allows him to react to things faster than himself or more specifically his eye. So once you take that away he can and has been tagged by characters slower than him such as Buccaneer.

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If Wrath were truly supersonic in combat speed he would be reacting via touch to a blade that is far slower than him.

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Either way, arguing down the character who was used as the limit for combat speed, is only going to help my argument.

No I'm arguing consistency for my character. Origin in an upgraded body needs to move read to dodge a mach 1.3 punch.

Here Origin how he's fighting at high speed when he lacks the controls to do so and just a chapter later he dodge a punch that's faster.

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The only difference between Origin in his muscle suit and his upgraded body is the suit adds muscle without adding weight. Which allows him to fight at the speeds he perceives and reacts to aka combat speed.

If they are faster than the bullets King Bradley was weaving through, then your character is above the combat speed limit. Actually, even being the same speed would put your character above the King Bradley speed limit; simply due how many were being sprayed out at once. That's not even getting into the fact that your character was weaving through them while advancing at "supersonic speeds".

I guess Spider-Man is above the limit too since he dodged a mach 4 bullet causally and by your own admissions characters reaction is equal to their combat speed.

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I don't see why we should assume the bullets are any sort of special super material, unless stated otherwise.

Even if we assume the rail gun bullets are, like say, made of tungsten; which I suppose is reasonable given that it seems to be a decently recurring material in this setting; it really shouldn't make much of a difference.

The core things that effect the impact force of a projectile, outside of speed, are hardness and weight.

The steel BB pellets were already capable of withstanding the impact force of mach 2.6 without the slightest bit of warping:

Thus, increasing the hardness would not have increased it's destructive power.

Tungsten is denser than steel, thus weighing more, and if we were dealing with larger caliber bullets; I am sure we would see a pretty significant change in impact forces... For little BB pellets on the other hand? The difference in weight would be pretty negligible. Granted, I don't have a clip comparing tungsten BBs to steel BBs; so if you have any way of proving I am underestimating how much of a change in power that would cause, I am all ears... err... eyes...

Wait that's not how this works, if we are assuming either way which we are then for me trying to dig up proof that doesn't exist is inconsequential. Since it can't be proven either way.

Why is it so bad to admit on the forums you don't know and to simply agree to disagree?

We can see the impact craters caused by each individual bullet.

Nothing about the scan you showed suggests he was shooting the door for some extended period of time. In fact, every argument you have made regarding how the railgun functions, would suggest it operates in instantaneous bursts.

We don't see the impact of each individual bullet since they are shot simultaneously, so that's misleading on your part.

I've only argued all the bullets are shot simultaneously, I've never stated it can't be sprayed for extending periods of time. Which has been shown the chapter before.

Because... Mach 2.6 BBs failed to penetrate a few stacked quarters and were completely stopped by a thin piece of iron, and the creators caused by said impact, were no larger than the BBs themselves.

Your railgun bullets struck steel, and still managed to create massive craters, larger than the actual bullets were, and likely larger than what most conventional firearms, even when of a more standard-sized caliber, would be capable of making.

The speed difference here, is clearly quite large.

I've addressed the factors going into the speed of the rail gun. Which shows the difference in our style of debate where you upscale everything while I opt of consistency.

I like how you quoted both paragraphs, but only actually addressed the second part of it, while ignoring the main argument.

I didn't address it because nowhere in the manga was the energy efficiency of rail guns stated or implied. The robots design and build their own weapons while being far more advanced than any roboticist in the field.

A character literally stats she failed at building a human type robot while failing to notice she's talking to one.

All we know is that robots are limited in energy due to the short supply they can carry. So the same energy they would use to move their arm is the same energy they would use to shoot a railgun. The weapon was never implied to be the problem.

In other-words... Within a single throw, your character produced enough energy to move 368 tons a single foot.

That's what I'm arguing against, joules measure the sum total of kinetic energy. It doesn't include how much is loss due to heat, fraction (air resistance) nor does it include bare fist versus the use of a weapon. The fact that Origin throws a spear design for combat mean it will hit harder than if he were to punch with his fist. To truly understand how strong Origin is you would have to gauge the force of his strikes not their energy.

I wouldn't know. Your only reference regarding how strong that strike is, was a link to how durable the material is IRL, which happens to be more durable than the material Iron Man's suit is made of... IRL...

So you admit you disregard Iron-Man's feats over the argument that suits your position. Good talk.

Slow based on what? The only one that's short distance is Alice's but her's is fast enough to be used to dodge supersonic punches:

This is pure game mechanics and you should know this. The only way to quantify feats is to assume physics in fiction works the same way they do in real life. Everyone should know games are designed with their own physics engine so using game play work. Quick time events are on the fringe of what is acceptable due to their nature of being gameplay and a cut scene.

I'm sorry, what? Where does the OP say that that's where your characters spawn? He said we spawn in the normal spawn spots, but he did not say which team gets what. I had assumed it was random.

If there are 99 soldiers evenly placed cross the battlefield then the larger areas will automatically have the most. Going by the OP the soldiers don't spawn in neatly placed groups.

"There will be 99 armed modern U.S. Army soldiers spread out across the battlefield. They cannot be affected during the prep stage."

So in a battle where you arguing characters are equal speed then the one who's closer will net the most hearts plain and simple. Since you didn't choice and I did I my team has that advantage.