So, I take Sagan to a daycare that's close to my house and work. I drop him off once a week as sort of a "treat" for him to socialize, play, and basically let out all of the energy that he doesn't get to let out from walking because he's still too young for a dog park (parks in this area require your dog to be at least 6-months-old). The owners absolutely love him and he has a blast -- every "report" (they fill out a sheet of who he played with, how he behaved, etc) is very positive. He knows we're there as soon as I pull into the parking lot.

The problem lies with this: I picked him up this afternoon and the owner immediately tells me that "I should work on Sagan's barking." I was skeptical of this because Sagan virtually never barks at home. He's vocal when playing, but aside from that, I never hear a peep, usually. I told her that he "very rarely" barks at home and I'm not entirely sure how to really "train" him to deter from that. She replies that he was incessantly barking at several dogs, and "water didn't work or distract him" (which leads me to believe they tried to squirt him with a water bottle). When she handed me his leash, she made the comment that "Sagan is a really unusual Shiba because she's never met one so vocal."

I was honestly a little upset by that comment, because it seemed to be more of a complaint than anything. I'm not entirely sure how to steer him away from barking while playing because it's almost impossible, not to mention I'm not there. I have trained him "Speak!" and "Quiet..." and he does both 90-100% of the time when asked.

What do you guys think about what happened, and what should I do to resolve this?

The only time we get any vocalization from our puppy is when she's playing really aggressively or absolutely excited when we come home. I agree a time out usually or a pause from activities may be a good start in trying to settle down Sagan. Also, did they state what the other dogs were doing that made Sagan bark at them?

Tatonka goes to daycare every work day, and one day he came back with this barking problem. The daycare didn't complain, and the establishment is really good so I don't attribute the problem to them - I think it's just a development in Tatonka's personality.

So the day I discovered it, I met my friend who has a Viszla for the first time at a dog park (so Tatonka's first time meeting him). My friend was wearing sunglasses and a hat. Tatonka takes one look at him, does a series of Basenji barks followed by a howl (let's call this BB+H). He then continues to do this for the NEXT TWO HOURS at EVERY HUMAN AT THE DOG PARK.

Ever since, this hasn't been a universal problem, but for some people he will BB+H whenever he gets near them. He is 100% consistent with who he does it with, it's like he has a database. The only helpful element to all of this is that BB+H is SO FUNNY TO WATCH that no one minds him doing it. People keel over laughing when he does do it.

I really have no idea how to stop it. Redirecting hasn't worked and he is not motivated by treats, praise, attention (he'd prefer no attention at all), anything.

He will also BB without the H at some (not all) people, and usually he will do this at night. The BB on its own always sounds like he's afraid more than anything - but this is a guy who stands around next to roaring trains and trucks and vacuum cleaners and massive barking dogs and he doesn't care.

Sort of clueless how to address it.

Edit: timeouts haven't helped. A "cut it out!" redirect will get him to stop and look at me but doesn't address it for the next time he will do it.

Okay, I told the owners this morning about giving him time outs, and much to my surprise, she told me that they already did! I dropped him off today to see how well he would do. I come back about two hours earlier than I usually do and shockingly, he isn't a wild beast and isn't barking up a storm when I see him. The owner tells me that they did multiple time outs as opposed to the one yesterday and he "was doing better" today.

That's interesting, @tatonka. Sagan developed his howl when he was a wee pup due to hearing an ambulance rushing down our street. Ever since then, he howls whenever he hears loud sirens or when he's whining. He replaced his whining with howling because he realized that whining got him no where, so he attempts to do different noises to try and get our attention. XP

I find my guy barks, as in annoying high pitched barks, not play noises, when another dog that he wants to play with doesn't want to interact, but is a little too scary to bully (via nipping his ass) into interaction. So typically it goes like this:

sniff sniffShiba does some play signallingother dog just looks awayShiba tries an exploratory whine or other noise, or maybe an arm slapother dog gives him a warningShiba goes into play bow, or down, and barks.. many times over..other dog keeps ignoring himat this point the only solution is to find him something else to do.

On the other hand if the other dog is willing to interact and play fight boisterously, there are only nice play noises.

So, the owner asked me today when I picked Sagan up when I'm neutering him. I told him when he reaches about 9-12 months old, depending if he's acting up or not -- which he hasn't. She told me I should do it soon, because he was doing behaviors today that made her prompt the question to me.

The daycare itself does not require dogs to be neutered, it only forbids aggressive dogs and dogs who do not pass the "stranger exam." Obviously Sagan passed both as he's been going for the past three months.

Sagan does not exhibit any, if at all, "typical" intact male behavior at home or at dog parks. The daycare is telling me different. Should I neuter him in a few weeks, or not take him to daycare and wait until the time I wanted to neuter him? That time would be late February or Match.

Personally, I would wait, BUT, if issues arise with other neutered males at daycare it might be necessary. At the dog park that we frequent it seems that neutered males have problems with intact males.

You might need to fix him earlier than you want to so not to jeapordize his daycare.

I guess it depends on how much you rely on the daycare. If you really need it, then I guess go with the earlier neuter. But if you can let it slide a bit (and this would be my personal preference) I'd go with neutering when I thought it was right.

I wonder what the behavior was? I'd suspect, like Inu Ryuu says, that it was the OTHER males, not him that were the problem (or that it had nothing to do with being intact). I mean, the only real intact male behavior I've noted in mine is licking up pee of female dogs. That's gross, but it's not really a reason to cause a problem in doggie day care, you know? :lol:

The owner didn't specify, but just recommended it to me. I'll ask when I come back next week what they're observing.

The stranger exam is basically the owners at the daycare who physically touch his ears, paws, collar, among other things that may create a reaction. Dogs who don't pass the exam are declined from daycare and can try again in a month.

I think I'll wait it out. I don't take him too often, but enough that I'd like to eventually come back.

I would first find out what the behavior the owner is referring to is.

I know there is a lot of debate on if and when to neuter. I waited until 10 months, but for about 3 of them I could clearly see that his hormones were changing. He wasn't aggressive, he just started marking a lot of things and wanting to hump some of his toys. He even marked indoors (not in our house though) when we went to an indoor meetup with other dogs, which meant I spent a lot of time following him about cleaning it up (annoying that meetup was for me).

Nah, I'm with you, I want to wait until he's just a little bit older (9-10 months old) to neuter him. Sagan has only humped ... one dog that I've seen at a dog park, and it was a male who was ignoring him, heh. He definitely marks, but never indoors. I dunno. He isn't acting so bad that I need to neuter right now, but soon, for sure.

Like I said previously, I'll just take him out of daycare for a month or two until he's neutered at the desired time. And I'm also curious what he did (or didn't do) for her to bring it up. I'll ask next week!

Even if he was acting bad neuter is not the solution to all problems. It will be interesting to hear your update on what the owner is referring to.

I would, like you said, wait until he is older and don't let anyone else pressure you into doing it before you believe is appropriate. It sounds like you can take him out of daycare for a few months, so follow your instincts. You know and live with him daily and are his best advocate.

That feeling when you're told that your dog is way too rough with others at daycare and he was forced to be in a crate for 30 minutes to "cool down."

I asked what exactly happened and she said Sagan was "chicken-legging" (she described it as Sagan being too nippy, and purposely nipping the hindquarters of a dog's leg to get him riled up) and the other dog didn't like it. Apparently this particular dog was also afraid of him, but I couldn't help but wonder why they kept Sagan in the same section if he was? It's unfortunate because I really like this particular daycare establishment, but it seems he's been having issues here and there. :-/

I'm kinda venting btw, I know Shibas play rough and I know how Sagan plays. :P I'm just wondering why they couldn't place him or the other dog in a different section. Whenever my boyfriend goes to pick him up, they tell him positive affirmations, but when I pick up Sagan, it's always negative. Either it's a coincidence, or I dunno... lol.

That sucks. All my dogs (all NK of course) go for the rear legs in play. The Kai does it most of all, and it is all play. They also all do the "bite the back of the neck" thing, which can get out of hand (esp. with the female Shiba) but again, it's play.

Kuma goes for any legs he can get to or the neck, much like the others have described.

From what you're describing it sounds like Sagan is just being a Shiba. Your last comment was interesting... maybe you can get your boyfriend to pick him up for a while to see if they're consistent. Does he always interact with the same person as when you pick Sagan up?

I will say with my experience in daycare, some dogs find that very annoying. Keep in mind they are with multiple strange dogs, and sometimes it can turn into giant barking everybody nipping one dog session. I've also seen a retriever do it to an older dog once, and the normally docile dog turned around and shreaded his ear. Its just not behavior I ever allowed in daycare unless both dogs were enjoying themselves. Usually you remove the intiator if they don't let up.

I don't think its a bad punishment, and sometimes when it came to the shibas, they would do that because they wanted space (the older they got, the more intolorant they got of daycare, and if they got annoyed they would either get snippy/jerky, or bully dogs). I think the leg nipping is just not something most dogs tolorate, especially if you can have dogs with possible joint issues. Kenshin for example is not allowed to do it to zora because of her bad hips, but he knows its ok with his friend down the block.

I still find it strange that the staff couldn't handle it better. At Juni's daycare the staff are very familiar with the dogs different personalities and which dogs like each other and which ones don't and match them accordingly. The ones that want to and can play nicely can be out in the corridor the others go mostly voluntarily to their rooms for rest.

Saya does the same with Bella she either play bows, barks, and make a growly barky noise to get Bella to play or she bites her legs. I don't think she bites hard just hey you chase me or wrestle or I bite your legs.. haha

Ugh, I am so frustrated right now. KLFD:Mkflds'hgkldsys *takes a deep breath*

Okay, so I picked Sagan up from daycare this evening and right off the bat, I'm greeted with distaste from the manager. She proceeds to tell me how it went today, and this is what she said (not word for word, I'm paraphrasing):

"He did okay, but he got into a few scuffles with the same small dog today that we had to literally place the small dog into a different section. He seems to still have puppy antics, so he's not sure of his boundaries, and he needs to see a trainer or a behaviorist. Once he sees one, he should be good to come back here."

What?! I tell her that Sagan doesn't need a trainer and I take him to dog parks and other socialization events quite frequently -- I know how he plays; he's certainly not aggressive and loves playing with others, even if it means he's too rough. If I notice the other dog is uncomfortable or doesn't like Sagan playing with them, I call him off and calm him down, or go to a different section. I'm trying to explain this to her, but she keeps interrupting me and reiterating that I need to take him to puppy classes or a trainer.

I ask if he's being placed with bigger dogs because he gets along swimmingly with those who are twice his size, and she said no, "because he needs to be with dogs his size." I'm not sure if this is a liability issue or what, but now the negative reviews that I kept getting when I was picking him up the past few months were making more sense. They weren't putting him with compatible playmates, they were placing him with dogs who are around the same size! So, now it looks like I'll be looking for other daycares within the area. :-/ Also, they've never had a Shiba at their facility before Sagan. I blame the lack of understanding their play style mostly on that, too. :P

TL;DR: Sagan gets kicked out of daycare for being "too rough", manager tells me to see a behaviorist, and now I'm looking for another daycare.

@rikkaI can understand your frustration. Something like this is exactly why I refused to even consider putting Zim in the small dog daycare in town or in any other daycare that specifically mentioned size in determining play groups. Every time I'd seen him try to play with another small dog, he'd scared the crap out of them (although daycare has actually made his overly enthused scary-to-small-dog behavior go away now!), so I knew I wanted him with big dogs. I definitely think there are more important things than size in determining playmates.

Anyway, I'm sorry you're having this problem and I would definitely suggest finding a daycare that's dealt with a Shiba before, if you can. Our daycare has another Shiba that comes in too, apparently one of their first daycare clients, and I definitely feel like it helps them with Zim. I never hear anything bad about Zim from them (the owner is in love with him, in fact, and he with her) even though I know he can be a really rough player and impatient with dogs that don't respect when he's decided it's naptime (you know, normal Shiba stuff).

Good luck with finding another daycare. I know it doesn't make the search any easier, but it sounds like this one was more of a sow's ear than the silk purse it first appeared to be.

@notoriousscrat - Thanks, dude. I appreciate it. I was overly enthusiastic with this place at first since they really, really loved Sagan -- I think it was due to because of how young he was. He started going there at the ripe age of 4-months-old after he had received all the necessary vaccines to attend. The older he got, the bigger he got, making it difficult to play with smaller dogs (and dogs his size, too).

I guess we'll have to extensively seek another daycare that either a) has had a Shiba before and knows how they behave or b) allows smaller dogs to play with bigger dogs if their play styles match.

We were trying to socialize Niktia and I finally found a place with socialization classes for dogs of all ages since she was 2 at the time and had been attacked by another dog before we got her I wanted to try to get her to a class. I found a place that was over an hour away but liked that they used positive reinforcement most trainers in my area still use choke collars. I talked to the trainer for about a half an hour on the phone and she was willing to work with Nikita and thought the best time would be doggie play time when the owners stay with their dogs so I could learn to read her body language better. The trainer was really good with her and teaching me how to read her body language we went for 5 weeks 1 day a week. On week 5 someone brought in a little terrier she had been the smallest there for the previous weeks so I was keeping her away per the trainer till we could do a meet and greet with the trainer to help (she was busy with a lab that was bulling everyone out of the pool). The terriers owner had been told to stay in the pool side but decided not to listen and brought her dog over and set it down. Nikita took off after it by the time I got to her she had the poor little thing pinned with her paw but did not have her mouth on it. My mom has a yorkie terrier mix that she plays with at my moms house and she has done the same to her not sure why she tries to do that but it is only when we first get there and they play ok but we don't let them play long because the yorkie is older and can only handle about 15-20 min at a time. Their were no puncture wounds and they took the the dog to the vet and it was fine. The trainer asked me to skip a week (she would be off) and come back, saying it was not our fault the lady who was in working on her training certificate said Nikita was not aggressive while doing it and seemed to be playing since she had saw what happen and the trainer had not. Nikita had actually played with the labs and play bowed to the grayhounds instead of staying right next to me that day so she was making progress.

When we returned the owner was there and not the trainer. She looked at Nikita and said "why would you bring a shiba to doggie play time no shiba likes to play with other types of dogs? My husband raises (shows,breeds) Basenjis and I would never bring one to play time." She said this while Nikita is playing with her lab friend. We were asked to leave and not come back, with her comment I would not have gone back anyway. I found a rescue that is willing to let her come over and work on socialization when they have bigger dogs and since the head of the rescue is a behavioralist I feel comfortable, we start sessions in the spring (I am due to have a baby in the next few weeks and I just found her a month ago so we are waiting so I don't have to take the baby too). She loves to try to get Toby to play by play bowing and barking or nipping at his back legs but he refuses. It has even got to the point if he is carrying his stuffed animal around she will nicely try to grab the stuffed tail and pull but he releases it immediately and it falls to the ground since she leaves it there I am pretty sure she is just trying to play and not take it from him. I know she loved the last few times we went because she would be wagging her tail when we got off the highway. The only people I know that don't have 5lb dogs are our neighbors who breed English Mastiffs and they won't even let there son play with my boys because my kids are to rough with him (there son is 13 mine are 9,8,6,4) when he comes over, so I doubt they would allow Nikita over.

Hope you can find some where that is willing to work with Sagan and follow what you want for him.

Love my daycare! Kuma started daycare when he was 7 months. Kuma doesn't like anything new including new dogs in his face. My daycare WORKED WITH HIM and right off put him in with big dogs saying that dogs his size would be more defensive if he smiled at them (showed his teeth) He loves his daycare and it has been one of the best things we could ever give him. He is so excited when he goes. @Rikka glad you are looking for a daycare that will be a better fit for Sagan

When we returned the owner was there and not the trainer. She looked at Nikita and said "why would you bring a shiba to doggie play time no shiba likes to play with other types of dogs? My husband raises (shows,breeds) Basenjis and I would never bring one to play time." She said this while Nikita is playing with her lab friend. We were asked to leave and not come back, with her comment I would not have gone back anyway.

I agree with @KitsuneSakakino. Zim has never met another dog that he didn't like. They don't always like him (and that can put him off another dog for a while) but he loves all other dogs. Just depends on the dog.

@tobysmom - Wow, crazy. To be honest, it is true that some Shibas can become dog intolerant after they turn a certain age, but it's just a generalization; obviously not ALL Shibas don't like playing with others. Thanks for sharing your story though, and that's marvelous you're working with her socialization. I hope it's going well for you!

And yes, Sagan also loves the company of other dogs. He's most happy at a dog park, I find. Super excited, lovable, and plays well in groups. He obviously does better with dogs who are bigger, but that doesn't mean he won't attempt to play with those who are smaller, too.

@littlebear - Thanks! I hope to find one soon, too. I feel bad for him because he was getting disciplined at daycare for actions that were actually quite normal for his breed... Earlier in this thread, I wrote that he was put in a crate for "chicken-legging" (their words, not mine, haha!)

That is horrible. Kumas daycare would sit with him and when he would smile let him know everything was fine and keep dogs back. They went as far as moving the rest of the dogs to another area when Kuma entered so he wouldn't be swarmed. They have turned some dogs away that just couldn't fit in, but it was more for the dogs sake. You can tell it isn't just a business for them they truly love dogs.

@Rikka my two poor dogs would never be allowed out of a crate if "chicken-legging" calls for time outs ... at home my two dogs if they are not trying for the World Wrestling Smack Down via mouth wrestling they are going after each others back legs.

I don't use daycare a lot, but I was very fortunate to find a day care center that while they start segregation by size they don't hold to it if they clearly see a smaller dog better fits with the bigger dogs, which in Bear's case is very true. Bear is typically bored by most small dogs other than the real high energy runners.

@redcattoo - Exactly! It's totally normal for him to do that, I see it all the time when he's playing. It's more of an issue if the other dog doesn't like it. If they're uncomfortable or showing obvious signs of wanting to stop (and he doesn't already), I call him off and move on. *shrug*

@Rikka, Problem #1: So when Tatonka got sick a couple weeks back he was very lethargic and to me he looked quite deathly. I'd picked him up close to closing time for the daycare, but he'd been sick most of the day. So:1. Not only did they not give me a quick phone call to know he's sick so that I could help him2. By the time I picked him up, I'd automatically be paying a premium for emergency hours to visit my vet

I don't think it's that hard to let me know this is happening.

This happened not once but twice in the same week.

Problem #2: Tatonka is a finicky eater. I like to know how much he's eating or not eating. But depending on the folks working there, the uneaten food is either left in the container or totally washed out. It's hard to monitor your dog's food intake if stuff just gets washed out.. I think they do it out of politeness, but I'd rather just get the unfiltered data on my dog.

Problem #3: Tatonka can be a bully sometimes. Sometimes he does make some little dogs hate him because he hates to lose. So this will result in them putting him with the big dogs. I'd like to know this has happened but sometimes I'll get the answer "oh, he really likes the big dogs". Again, this is done out of politeness but I'd rather just get the data on what might be going on..

Disclaimer: I'm an extremely finicky/annoying owner and the daycare I go to is really, really good. My 3 points make it sound bad, but it's pretty rare to find a place this good.

Problem #2: Tatonka is a finicky eater. I like to know how much he's eating or not eating. But depending on the folks working there, the uneaten food is either left in the container or totally washed out. It's hard to monitor your dog's food intake if stuff just gets washed out.. I think they do it out of politeness, but I'd rather just get the unfiltered data on my dog.

Problem #3: Tatonka can be a bully sometimes. Sometimes he does make some little dogs hate him because he hates to lose. So this will result in them putting him with the big dogs. I'd like to know this has happened but sometimes I'll get the answer "oh, he really likes the big dogs". Again, this is done out of politeness but I'd rather just get the data on what might be going on..

Disclaimer: I'm an extremely finicky/annoying owner and the daycare I go to is really, really good. My 3 points make it sound bad, but it's pretty rare to find a place this good.

I don't use daycare regularly and I have only boarded my one dog one overnight, but I am very comfortable with the place I chose. Like @Tatonka though, I found their desire to be polite and positive did not fully meet what I wanted.

Like @Tatonka I am a little finicky/annoying about leaving my dog. I wanted not only to understand his eating, I wanted to understand his pooing. I didn't get the type of raw data on these items I really would have desired even though at the end of the day the world didn't end because of it. I also had requested he not be put in day care the 2nd day of his overnight because I wanted him resting (he had agility training the next day), but they ended up putting him in daycare that day even though they didn't plan to charge me for it. So sometimes the good places trying to be nice, polite, and make things easier end up making them seem bad even though their not.

@littlebear, I want to put Kenzo in with the big dogs too but they won't let me :/ they say because he might get hurt. Kenzo's trainer said "you should be more worried about Kenzo getting rough and hurting a little dog" which I agree with 100%. He is a little rough one. He becomes so submissive with the bigger dogs. I am going to try and ask them a few more times.

@Rikka good luck on finding a new daycare for Sagan. There are a couple of doggie daycare places closer to our house, but we were not impress with their establishment or they don't really have a lot of experiences with shibas. Nowadays we drive a little further to take Sam to a daycare that has way more experiences with shibas. I am glad to know that Sam is always happy to be there!

Kenzo's trainer said "you should be more worried about Kenzo getting rough and hurting a little dog"

o.O I mean... Yes, that's a legitimate problem if your dog is hurting another, but dogs generally don't try to hurt others? If I notice Sagan is being way too rough for a dog (they're yelping, tail tucked between their legs and running away, snapping in the air at him to go away, etc), I call him off and go to a different section. *shrug* Even when we were attending classes when he was younger, the dogs his size or smaller never liked him. He was always placed with the German Shepherds or Labs in puppy groups because that's who tolerated (or played back) with him. I think it's lame that people try to segregate dogs based on size rather than compatibility.

@Znoopygirl - Thanks! I found another daycare that I'm interested in checking out but they are a bit further than I'd like, but it's worth it, imo.