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Matt P wrote:If you were the Nationals would you give up Zimmermann for Jones?If you were the Giants would you give up Bumgarner for Jones?

I don't think I would if I was calling the shots for either organization.

I think you might be surprised what both of those organizations will do this winter.

I wouldn't be to surprised if the Giants pulled the trigger on a deal like that to be honest. They gave up Wheeler for Beltran and they have made some other pretty stupid moves in the past. I know the Nationals really want a CF so I guess it wouldn't shock me if they made a stupid deal either. I'm not saying either organization would or wouldn't I'm just saying I don't think it would be in the best interest of either team to pull the trigger on a deal like that.

Maybe not, but you should look at it from the other guy's POV. They would be trading potential for a proven commodity that would allow them to win now. That has a value to a team that goes beyond statistics.

ofahn wrote:Maybe not, but you should look at it from the other guy's POV. They would be trading potential for a proven commodity that would allow them to win now. That has a value to a team that goes beyond statistics.

Bumgarner 2010 - 18 starts, 111ip, 6.97 K/9, 2.11 BB/9, 3.00 ERA, 3.66 FIP, 3.85 xFIP.Bumgarner 2011 - 33 starts, 204.2ip, 8.40 K/9, 2.02 BB/9, 3.21 ERA, 2.67 FIP, 3.10 xFIPZimmermann 2009 - 16 starts, 91.1 ip, 9.07 K/9, 2.86 BB/9, 4.63 ERA, 3.59 FIP, 3.35 xFIPZimmermann 2010 - 7 starts, 31 ip, 7.84 K/9, 2.90 BB/9, 4.94 ERA, 5.85 FIP, 3.92 xFIPZimmermann 2011 - 26 starts, 161.1 ip, 6.92 K/9, 1.73 BB/9, 3.18 ERA, 3.16 FIP, 3.78 xFIPI would not look at either of them as just potential. It's not like these are guys that have looked good in A and AA but haven't pitched well in the majors. Both guys are on the major league rosters, pitching well, and a key part of each teams future.Adam Jones is a mediocre defensive CF who can hit around .285 with 20+ HR. He doesn't get on base well and he struggles to lay off a breaking ball in the dirt. I don't think Adam Jones makes either team "win now". I pray that we would be able to get a pitcher like a Zimmermann or Bumgarner for Jones but I just don't see how it makes any sense at all for either the Nationals or Giants to make that trade.

Matt P wrote:Adam Jones is a mediocre defensive CF who can hit around .285 with 20+ HR. He doesn't get on base well and he struggles to lay off a breaking ball in the dirt. I don't think Adam Jones makes either team "win now". I pray that we would be able to get a pitcher like a Zimmermann or Bumgarner for Jones but I just don't see how it makes any sense at all for either the Nationals or Giants to make that trade.

I don't dispute your analysis of Jones. I question your understanding of the lack of CF talent available this winter and the value that some teams may place on him. We can agree or disagree on this until the first pitch of spring but it will be the GMs feeling pressure to win now that will make the decisions on this. There may be a Bavasi or Hendry or George Steinbrenner out there that does something out of passion instead of logic.

Matt P wrote:Adam Jones is a mediocre defensive CF who can hit around .285 with 20+ HR. He doesn't get on base well and he struggles to lay off a breaking ball in the dirt. I don't think Adam Jones makes either team "win now". I pray that we would be able to get a pitcher like a Zimmermann or Bumgarner for Jones but I just don't see how it makes any sense at all for either the Nationals or Giants to make that trade.

I don't dispute your analysis of Jones. I question your understanding of the lack of CF talent available this winter and the value that some teams may place on him. We can agree or disagree on this until the first pitch of spring but it will be the GMs feeling pressure to win now that will make the decisions on this. There may be a Bavasi or Hendry or George Steinbrenner out there that does something out of passion instead of logic.

But is adding Jones and getting rid of Bumgarner really going to improve the Giants? Honestly I think they'd be worse with Jones and no Bumgarner. As Rising O's said they also have Gary Brown on the way.

Jordan wrote:Honestly I think they'd be worse with Jones and no Bumgarner. As Rising O's said they also have Gary Brown on the way.

I think it comes down to the value they place on Jones. Brown is playing in the AFL right now. If he's dominant then I can see the Giants being reluctant to trade for player that might block him BUT even if Brown plays well his best projection for 2012 is to finish at AAA.

Hey, if I were the Giants I would be reluctant to trade Bumgarner too. It just comes down to how strongly they feel the need to get stronger up the middle.

Jordan wrote:I still think they'd prefer to get a CF by dealing Brown + others rather than Bumgarner.

Sure. I could see the Giants pushing a package of Brown, Eric Surkamp, and someone else. I'd leverage that against the Nationals to coerce them into improving their offer. Maybe in doing so the Giants would make the someone else a legit lower level prospect. At that point you have to seriously consider taking the deal.

Jordan wrote:I still think they'd prefer to get a CF by dealing Brown + others rather than Bumgarner.

Sure. I could see the Giants pushing a package of Brown, Eric Surkamp, and someone else. I'd leverage that against the Nationals to coerce them into improving their offer. Maybe in doing so the Giants would make the someone else a legit lower level prospect. At that point you have to seriously consider taking the deal.

The Giants need to upgrade at SS and CF but won't have the money to chase after Reyes. If I were them I would find out what the Orioles wanted for Jones AND Hardy. If I were the Orioles I would insist on Bumgarner, Brown, and Belt or Surkamp.

ofahn wrote:The Giants need to upgrade at SS and CF but won't have the money to chase after Reyes. If I were them I would find out what the Orioles wanted for Jones AND Hardy. If I were the Orioles I would insist on Bumgarner, Brown, and Belt or Surkamp.

There's a deal to be made here.

That's why they should have dealt Hardy last year. Now trade clause and his value is going to fade.