Unlike many, I haven't had so much a sore spot for AB making any patches overseas, but it was annoying when I got a AB-made US flag patch and had it sewn to a flightsuit and the people sewing it on noticed it had, "Made in China" on the back.

That said, it's a sign of the times, you see stuff just like this everywhere now.

mach3valkyrie

Thanks for the heads up, Harald. I would like to see a reversal in the trend of sending our manufacturing overseas. I still have a bunch of patches made in Weaverville in the early '70's. The quality was just better.

Harald Kraenzel

Regarding their plants outside the US I was told:

We still have our factories in Mexico and China. We have just chosen to make the 4" space emblems here in the USA.

hoorenz

quote:Originally posted by mach3valkyrie:I still have a bunch of patches made in Weaverville in the early '70's. The quality was just better.

The quality was better because they used different machines (Schiffli), with 'richer' thread and less economic stitching. Boy I wished we could still get this sparkling mylar silver or gold... This is simply a worldwide trend.

I believe AB is using the same machines (Tajima; Japanese) and software (Wilcom) and thread in all their plants and you would not be able to tell the difference, if it was not for the sticker on the back saying "China".

spaced out

Having had patches manufactured in both locations by AB Emblem I can attest that the manufacturing quality is the same from the US or China.

I'm pretty sure that the "Made on China" stickers on the back have been imposed on companies as a way of discouraging overseas production, which is fair enough.

However, for those of you that think - "Hey, I'd be prepared to pay a little more for a US made patch" - I should point out that if you specify US production when having a run of patches made the cost is effectively double. As you can imagine this makes it economically unworkable for most small-scale projects.

hoorenz

Exactly 125 years ago, the British invented the 'made in...' labels to discourage people from buying non-British items. In the end, this backfired. 'Made in Germany' items became very popular because of their quality...

I recently placed a relatively small order with AB Emblem and despite the price difference, I chose the domestic option. This is 'overseas' for me anyway, but having the embroidery machines and the sales manager who understands my order in the same building, somehow seems reassuring: if anything goes not as planned, it does not take over a week to discover it... and another two weeks to correct it.

Robert Pearlman

quote:Originally posted by spaced out:I'm pretty sure that the "Made on China" stickers on the back have been imposed on companies as a way of discouraging overseas production, which is fair enough.

The labels were required as part of the Consumer Product Safety Improvement Act of 2008, which went into effect on Aug. 14, 2009. The act requires manufacturers to permanently affix tracking labels to most products marketed to children (in this case, the patches are gift shop souvenirs).

The labels are required by law to include the date (or date range) of production and location of production to make it easier for consumers to identify the source of recalled products.

Gonzo

I don't have any issues with the label. In fact, I even think it's a good idea for a couple of reasons. First, it dates the patch and shows when it was made. Indisputably. Second, it also gives the exact item number from AB.

However, I do have an issue with the REASON for the law and the stickers. Why do we need to be able to know this information just for the sake of a recall? I mean really? Now we're making provisions to recall patches? (And I can guarantee you one thing, if they DID try to recall a patch for some reason and I had one, I seriously doubt I'd comply!)

I will also admit, despite Chris' claim of similar quality, I prefer American made patches. Not that I have anything against the patches made elsewhere. It's just the principal of the issue. We're talking about the patches the US space program uses. Why shouldn't they be made here? We certainly have the capability of making our own patches. Otherwise AB (and others) wouldn't be in business. I understand how for some things it makes sense to make them overseas. But patches? What about them makes it advantageous for overseas production?

Sorry for the vent. But laws are made to protect the ignorant. Unfortunately, you can't protect stupid. Nor can you fix it.

fredtrav

The law I am sure is not specific to patches, It would cover a wide range of produced items from patches to pins to toys and many many more things.

We have to know this information so, if for example, lead paint was found on a children's toy, it could be recalled.

spaced out

quote:Originally posted by Gonzo:Not that I have anything against the patches made elsewhere. It's just the principal of the issue.

I fully understand the appeal of having patches for the US space program being made in the US.

Simply put, the thing that makes it advantageous to make them overseas is the cost of labour. It costs half as much (or less) to make a patch in China and ship it back to the States than it does to have it made in a factory in the US.

In any case, it's nice that for whatever reason AB have decided to make their space patches in the US now.

hoorenz

quote:Originally posted by Gonzo:We're talking about the patches the US space program uses. Why shouldn't they be made here?

Personally, I do not care where they are being made, but just imagine the Canadians, Russians, Japanese and Italians would think the same! You would have the same Expedition patch made in several different countries.

Gonzo

To keep my comments from going to unintentional places, what I was trying to point out was that we are pushing too many things to overseas manufacturing just because of cost. Like I said, there are some things where it makes sense. There are others where cost is not the only factor to consider. If this weren't the case, why did AB decide to pull all 4" patch manufacturing back to NC? In any event, please don't take my comment the wrong way. I was trying to make a point, albeit with a possibly bad example. I did not intend for it to be taken the wrong way.

As far as recalls are concerned, I understad the laws weren't written specifically for patches. However, due to the way laws are written, those laws apply across the board. Some would argue that they should. I think that we would all agree that if the law is written in light of the possibility of a recall, they probably don't apply to patches. So what's so terribly wrong with politicians and lawmakers taking the time to write laws as they should? Instead of taking the short and easy route of saying this law should apply to everything in this category, why not say it should be applied WHERE IT MAKES SENSE? Unfortunately we live in a world where we have gone too far following the letter of the law and not the intent of the law.

hoorenz

Again, I do not have any strong feelings regarding this matter, but it is a funny discussion. We are talking about patches for an international project. Large parts of the ISS itself have been produced 'overseas', partly to reduce cost.

Spaceguy5

quote:Originally posted by hoorenz:I believe AB is using the same machines (Japanese made anyway) and software (Wilcom) and thread in all their plants and you would not be able to tell the difference, if it was not for the sticker on the back saying "China".

Out of the US flags I ordered from AB Emblem (almost all of which were made in China), I noticed that about 1/20 of them had defects, mostly incorrectly trimmed threads (the worst was one where the border on the top left was stitched on wrong, leaving a mess of thread hanging off).

That's the downside to cheap, fast production... defects that slip through the cracks.

Another weird defect (if it can be considered one) is that the red stripe directly below the blue starfield is slightly curved. I've noticed the same defect on a flag patch that was even worn on an ACES suit (unknown manufacturing location), but it's just barely more pronounced on the newer China flags.

hoorenz

I agree that if something is wrong with an American flag, chances that quality control in an American factory will spot this, are greater.

But I do not see why a Canadian, Japanese, Italian, German or Russian ISS crew member would feel better wearing a patch that has been produced in the United States.

Again, except if it was for the fact that the people knowing what a design is all about, are closer to the production and can catch mistakes earlier, so that there will be no delays.

cycleroadie

The big thing here is AB Emblem is an American company, no matter what patches they are making (They do make more than space patches), and with tough economic times, why not bring those jobs back from China, I'll gladly pay a buck or two more for a patch made by an American worker, just to keep the money here.

Harald Kraenzel

An interesting discussion so far.

Personal feelings and experiences are described and discussed and I think all readers will be able to follow each single point as some do have a positive and some do have a negative impact.

But that's the way the current world is working...

Companies decide to outsource to reach a defined goal and somewhat later have to correct the made decision(s) following changing requirements.

I think it's a long way of try and error to get the best results for every aspect of the product(s) in question.

And finally it can be an advantage that we can open our point of view to nearly the complete world to get things done.

Hence the process of coloring the used threads are made with contaminated raw materials and this fact remains undetected and the patches are send to the customers.

If this would have an impact to the health of the customer(s) a label telling in which land, on which machine and which date the threads have been used would help to identify the source of a possible problem with the process(es).

For me this is the real reason to use labels.

spaced out

quote:Originally posted by cycleroadie:I'll gladly pay a buck or two more for a patch made by an American worker, just to keep the money here.

I fully understand the sentiment. I'd just like to reiterate that when I was making my replica patches the cost of having a patch made by AB in the US rather than China was double. It just wasn't economically feasible for me to go for this option for most of my patch projects.

Of course I could have had my patches made directly by a Chinese, Taiwanese or Malaysian company, probably for less than AB, but then all the money would have been going overseas. At least by using a US company some of the money still goes into supporting a US company, even if the manufacturing is done overseas.

Jim Behling

quote:Originally posted by Gonzo:We're talking about the patches the US space program uses. Why shouldn't they be made here?

All the USAF space patches and coins are made overseas.

Harald Kraenzel

Just received the following statement from AB Emblem:

A-B Emblem’s contract for NASA calls for the emblems to be made in the United States. The specific orders for NASA therefore have always been made in North Carolina. For retail sales, using the same pattern, previous manufacturing was made in either China or Mexico. Now all current production is being made in North Carolina.

dogcrew5369

Being a native North Carolinian I have to say I'm tarheel proud to have these patches made in my state. Great news!