On 2/11/2012 hotgemini wrote:>Now that we've got the issue at hand resolved, I'm very interested to understand>how such a process failure occurred and what measures are being put in>place to stop it happening in future.
Process failure? In terms of government this was a process success!

>What is the backstory behind the zero-consultation implementation of the>new $15/night fee structure?
I wouldn't think consultation is normal for such a minor fee change to the camping rates for such a minor state park.

Climbers are have unique desires of 'their' camping compared regular users across most other camp grounds. Most people and most parks workers aren't going to properly understand this.

>Have they acknowledged their mistake?
What 'mistake'? They've changed their fees promptly following feedback received thanks to Tracey. It seems that they've done pretty well.

>What will be done to stop similar mistakes in future?
Of course some of us climbers may want consultation on every decision that is made regarding Arapiles. But this hardly seems practical. This is a government bureaucracy and we are a very small group in the scheme of things. I think overall things have turned out pretty well from this.

Parks Victoria have been brilliant, showing how a bureaucracy can adjust its thinking when given constructive feedback from stakeholders. The relationship between local PV staff and significant members of the climbing community - especially Tracy, but no doubt others too - shows how things can work when there is constructive dialogue. No doubt there will be some who will just want to slag off PV for it's initial approach, but they should really be judged on the final outcome. I for one am well impressed. For $4 a night you get water on tap, toilets, rubbish disposal and recently repaired roads so you can get to any part of the crag in under 15 minutes. Seems like a pretty good deal to me.

For everyone out there that is SLAGGING OFF Parks Vic, you may want to do some research.

The money from camp fee's DOES NOT go to Parks Vic it goes to our State Government. Parks Vic has to pay for toilet paper and the wages of a staff member to clean toilets, replace toilet paper and collect the camp fee's out of their budget. So this is not a money making thing for Parks Vic.

As for setting the price Parks Vic CAN NOT implement any price changes unless the State Government agrees to it. At the end of the day I think you guys need to cut Parks Vic some slack and relies the has something to do with out Government that is currently have.
This has now been fixed due to Access T doing something active about it instead of whinging about how hard done by we are as climbers.

>The money from camp fee's DOES NOT go to Parks Vic it goes to our State>Government.

I have trouble believing this. Why would the state government want to take camping fee's, it must be such a small component of the overall parks Vic budget paid by the state government. I would have thought any money generated by users would go straight back into the system to reduce this budget.

Believe it. We call it consolidated revenue. All monies (fines, rego, licences, stamp duty etc) earned by all government departments and agencies are handed over to the Finance Department. Do you think all the speeding fines go back to the police?

On 4/11/2012 Garrath wrote:>Believe it. We call it consolidated revenue. All monies (fines, rego,>licences, stamp duty etc) earned by all government departments and agencies>are handed over to the Finance Department.

I noted with interest in the USA that National Parks actually do claim that entry fees are used wholly within the park itself. They put a big sign saying exactly that on the entrance booth.

And I'd like to also say a BIG THANKS to Tracey and others for getting this bizarre turn of events sorted out! Here I was in the USA telling everyone how awesomely low admin the camp ground at Arapiles was and then I read this topic!

On 5/11/2012 patto wrote:>National parks in the US are actually federally run and owned. They are>in fact separate from the state they reside in. They are policed and run>by national parks service which is a federal agency.

Yes - in America they are actually NATIONAL parks - unlike our weird system that appears to be solely managed by individual States - but called National Parks. I never understood that.

On 5/11/2012 nmonteith wrote:>On 5/11/2012 patto wrote:>>National parks in the US are actually federally run and owned. They>are>>in fact separate from the state they reside in. They are policed and>run>>by national parks service which is a federal agency.>>Yes - in America they are actually NATIONAL parks - unlike our weird system>that appears to be solely managed by individual States - but called National>Parks. I never understood that.

I still can't understand it. Just crazy, and you get all these pocket-sized park that are often quite nice but nowhere near iconic enough to be called a 'National' park. Compare this with Assiniboine, Valhalla or Kananaskis Provincial Parks in Canada.

I only just now realised the strange situation of a National Park Service that isn't actually National. Should be called State Parks.
Even when dealing with the same system within NSW National Parks i have found a strange seperation of powers.
I received a fine for failing to pay an entrance fee at Ku ring gai NP in NSW ($300). I was visiting a place outside of the park (on my Motorbike). I had to enter the park to get to this place (Cottage Point for those who know the area). I entered the park had a coffee and then exited at the other end of the park. I exited without stopping. A few weeks later received a fine. I rang the Ku ring gai office who informed me that because i had entered and exited at different places i had committed an offence. I explained that i had not stopped in the park and that i regularly ride through the Royal National Park without problem. They told me that it is not an offence to ride through the Royal National Park however it was an offence to ride through Ku ring gai. This little misunderstanding cost me a day waiting in court and $150 fine.

I am really pissed off that they've reduced the camping fees. I was pretty sure with the $15 deal I was finally going to be able to get my tight arsed asian friend to climb in 'chossy' grampians..... but now he'll have no reason to stop going to Araps.

Time to gather my thoughts after the great long, long weekend at Araps and respond to some of the comments on this thread.

First up, I must say thank you to everyone who has been so supportive of me in their thanks. I do enjoy doing what I do and hope that the work I engage in and relationships I build over time do have an impact on any issues and negotiations that I am involved in.

As I noted in my last post there were many people involved in the successful outcome of the dispute about fee changes at the Mt Arapiles campground. I really feel I must reiterate that thanks, and I mean huge thanks, must go to all those in the climbing community who put their feelings forward so eloquently and to those staff at Parks Victoria who saw the issue from the start, listened and went in with full support to work with the issues and the legalities at hand. Their response was as a direct result of the climbing communityís interaction. I feel that my role in this was minimal compared to others. Much work had been undertaken by local PV staff in response to the community feedback by the time I returned to Australia.
Great work by climbing community members bringing the issue to notice, and for generating interest to respond, amongst the community. Adam (hotgemini) brought up some points in his most recent post. And many thanks to him as a fellow Access rep for his support. While I understand his concern and canít say I wasnít disappointed that the original fee change was put into place with the speed it was, I donít believe that a verbal mistake admission is necessary and feel that lessons have been learned from both sides. Iím sure that this will help inform future discussions.The fact that the resolution was as speedy, is a brilliant outcome! And that speaks volumes I think. As many of us know and agree, Arapiles has a very specific demographic with specific usage requirements and needs and this result has now highlighted that officially.
A great collaboration between the climbing community and Parks Victoria and one that hopefully continues to grow stronger.

having just read the thread end to end after not logging into chockstone for some time, i am impressed that tracey and co. were able to sort out the fee mess. well done. this process would NEVER occur in the usa.

i have always thought the fees were a bit low at araps, and i think $4/per person/per night is fair, considering the huge number of non-local climbers who need to budget loads of money just getting to the crag.

my two, very strong recommendations for camping improvement would be 1. designated campsites like those at frog to prevent excessive erosion, digging trenches, and the infernal peg-pounding on friday night and 2. the construction of firepits like those at buffalo to prevent the death of helpful soil bacteria by having open fires on the ground, and prevent erosion. the pines will be dead soon, so shade and needle droppings will no longer protect the thin topsoil.

i expect to return to araps after my latest 3 year immigration ban for overstaying my visa again.