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I've done a fair amount of competitive sport martial arts myself. I can never say my goal was remotely near burying any buggers 6 feet under. In fact I would say sport martial arts taught me more respect for my fellow competitor than I previously had.

Sparring isn't, at least as I've experienced it, about hurting anyone. Granted, there are the occasional weirdo's who attempt to use sparring to play out some strange fantasy that only exists in their head. But most people I've encountered in martial arts with sparring have been the most mellow people I've met. Sparring forces you to look at yourself in a very honest way. Making you deal with your ego, human limitations, and loss. Sparring tends to make people better, mentally and physically.

A martial arts system, is a system. An event is an event. I don't see why it matters that generally 5 techniques tend to raise to the top. That's interesting, is worth looking at, but doesn't change my study of a martial art system. I don't study martial arts to win competitions. Some people do, and that is fine, maybe they should study only those 5 techniques. I study martial arts to find out more about myself, sparring helps me do that like no other practice. A side affect of martial arts training is that it helps me deal with physical confrontation. The physical confrontation is what we are studying, but winning the confrontation is not the goal. We use the conflict to help ourselves grow, that is the goal.

Aaaaaaahhhhh! That is so good to hear.....

Your comments give me great inspiration in that somebody has taken the courage to look inwards and see the worth behind that which many think heretical.... I take my hat off to you Chris Hein

How about "because if we sent two or three people to the hospital every class, we soon wouldn't have a dojo"? I've sparred in taekwondo and karate, and I confess I can't imagine anything like sparring in aikido that wouldn't result in a lot of non-trivial injuries.

Well, I've sparred in TKD (and competed at national level in my early 20's) Kickboxing, BJJ, Judo and MMA. Never sent anyone to the hospital nor I've seen this happen in a daily basis in any of the clubs/gyms/dojo I've attended since the late 70's.

Bloody noses, busted lips, brown eyes, bruises, muscles pulled and luxations are not uncommonly seen. For me these are trivial injuries. Surely for some people this can be seen as a very high price to pay, a very expensive shugyo. But I'm of the "You gotta pay yo dues to play da blues" approach and the old "Know thyself" doesn't come for free. .

On aikido sparring, well, you imagine a lot of non trivial injuries as a result. I think your imagination doesn't mach reality. As Peter has pointed "Shodothugs" all around the world spar at a decent contact and resistence levels without crippling each other. Maybe what you imagine as the result of sparring in aikido is the result of some rationalization.

As I said before, a lot of effort has been put in creating a "image" of aikido. Now, is up to everyone to check (if he/she is interested) to what point this image matches reality, be it the objective or everyone's subjective one.

@Peter,

Where is the difference between honest jiyu waza where uke is free to escape or reverse techniques and sparring.?

When people think of sparring they mostly think about a training situation where both participants are trying to dominate, this kind of jiyu waza is more like a drill with elements of aliveness. And already an existing element in aikido practice.

How about "because if we sent two or three people to the hospital every class, we soon wouldn't have a dojo"? I've sparred in taekwondo and karate, and I confess I can't imagine anything like sparring in aikido that wouldn't result in a lot of non-trivial injuries.

We spar at my school a lot. Currently we are sparring and doing heavy jiyuwaza every class. In the last four years of doing this very regularly we've had:

One separated ac joint
One broken hand-boxers break
One broken pinky toe (this came while doing forms practice)
and a bunch of bruises, bumps and odd ball small injuries.

No hospital visits, and one of our bigger injuries was from forms practice. I don't think sparring with Aikido is any more dangerous than playing basket ball.

Sparring is pretty safe as far as physical activities go. I honestly think that Aikido done in demonstrations, with nage throwing with all his might, and uke trying to falling hard for every throw is MUCH more dangerous than sparring is.

I've fought with the Dog Brothers, it was a good experience, and showed me more about Aikido than years of forms training had. Not to say that forms training isn't important, it's just that it only goes so far.

I've found a pretty easy way to spar using Aikido methodologies. It's really simple, safe, and covers a lot of what is important in Aikido training. If I get a chance I'll post a pdf of the practice tonight.

I honestly think that Aikido done in demonstrations, with nage throwing with all his might, and uke trying to falling hard for every throw is MUCH more dangerous than sparring is.

I second that.

Quote:

Peter Grondhal wrote:

When people think of sparring they mostly think about a training situation where both participants are trying to dominate, this kind of jiyu waza is more like a drill with elements of aliveness. And already an existing element in aikido practice.

Then if is a drill is not completely "honest". But yes, I agree this kind of training is necessary as a intermediate step between contrived pattern training and the freewheeling non-holds-barred training Saito M. Sensei proposed in Traditional Aikido Vol 5, p 39-40.

One wouldn´t want it to be like most karate; do kata in a certain fashion, do kumite in a completely different one.

Quote:

Demetrio Cereijo wrote:

Then if is a drill is not completely "honest". But yes, I agree this kind of training is necessary as a intermediate step between contrived pattern training and the freewheeling non-holds-barred training Saito M. Sensei proposed in Traditional Aikido Vol 5, p 39-40.

]Maybe what you imagine as the result of sparring in aikido is the result of some rationalization.

Stop projecting, Demetrio. It's based on my prior experience in sparring in a different style of martial art, which as you say did often result in trivial injuries but not hospital-grade ones, and my prior experience with shoulder dislocations and the like outside of aikido. It's a reasonable question to raise: in sparring in a striking style, you are really trying to hit someone, so in sparring in aikido, you are really trying to...well, to do things that seem to me like if you did 'em for real, you'd end up with some serious injuries. If you think the reality is different, then explain how. There's no "rationalization" in that, so stop being insulting.

Stop projecting, Demetrio. It's based on my prior experience in sparring in a different style of martial art, which as you say did often result in trivial injuries but not hospital-grade ones, and my prior experience with shoulder dislocations and the like outside of aikido. It's a reasonable question to raise: in sparring in a striking style, you are really trying to hit someone, so in sparring in aikido, you are really trying to...well, to do things that seem to me like if you did 'em for real, you'd end up with some serious injuries. If you think the reality is different, then explain how. There's no "rationalization" in that, so stop being insulting.

I don't think he was trying to be insulting. I think he was just pointing out that often our ideas of how scary something might be, are worse than the reality.

Let's look at BJJ for example. The system is full of ways to break your arms, and strangle you. I have probably done over well over 500 hours of BJJ "rolling" (mild sparring) and competed against 12 different people in tournaments (the hardest kind of sparring). I've never broken an arm, I've never had my arm broken. It seems like I should have had at least one broken arm by now, or at least broken someone else's arm, but I haven't. Nor have I ever been in a dojo when It happened. I've seen lot's of small injuries, and one torn ACL (which was from a very strange and uncommon position) in all my BJJ sparring. It seems more dangerous than it really is.

I believe this is due mostly to the fact that in a Dojo, everyone is working together. Even though we go hard on each other, we aren't actually trying to hurt each other. Even in competitive events.

If you have pervious injuries, or are a fragile person, you should certainly be careful, and maybe sparring isn't for you. But over all, sparring isn't all that risky, at least compared to other contact sports.

demetrio, i am aware that's a demo, but that wasn't my point of using that particular video. the point i was trying to make was saotome sensei threw kicks, punches, and leg sweep. i just want to find out what would be "aikido sparring"? if you use Dog Brothers as rule, then what would be different from practice aikido then go and test out your stuffs at the local MMA playground? and if we are going to that, would we even care to practice aikido at all?

It's based on my prior experience in sparring in a different style of martial art, which as you say did often result in trivial injuries but not hospital-grade ones, and my prior experience with shoulder dislocations and the like outside of aikido.

What is really your sparring experience in TKD and Karate? Full contact or "tag"? What ruleset?. What is your knowledge of said arts (rank, years spent practising, tournaments you've participated? for I'd like to know if you are "old school" or "space age".

It's a reasonable question to raise: in sparring in a striking style, you are really trying to hit someone, so in sparring in aikido, you are really trying to...well, to do things that seem to me like if you did 'em for real, you'd end up with some serious injuries.

demetrio, i am aware that's a demo, but that wasn't my point of using that particular video. the point i was trying to make was saotome sensei threw kicks, punches, and leg sweep.

Understood.

Quote:

i just want to find out what would be "aikido sparring"? if you use Dog Brothers as rule, then what would be different from practice aikido then go and test out your stuffs at the local MMA playground? and if we are going to that, would we even care to practice aikido at all?

Because aikido has things MMA usually doesn't offer.

Really, what is the problem whith the kind of work you can see in this clips of aw member D. Valadez Sensei? or in this other ones of british or brazilian Shodokan stylists?

There seems to be this strange attachment to the idea of "doing Aikido" while sparring. This is not the way it works.

Aikido is a system, based on things learned from physical conflict. The foundation of Aikido didn't just get made up as an ideal way of fighting, and we have to try to "do Aikido". The things we practice in Aikido are natural to a certain context of fighting. If you spar in that context, Aikido technique will naturally arise. Will things look slightly different than forms, yes, everything gets smaller, and less pronounced, but all the techniques of Aikido will be used. Not because we want to use them, but because they are the most natural thing to do.

There seems to be this strange attachment to the idea of "doing Aikido" while sparring. This is not the way it works.

Aikido is a system, based on things learned from physical conflict. The foundation of Aikido didn't just get made up as an ideal way of fighting, and we have to try to "do Aikido". The things we practice in Aikido are natural to a certain context of fighting. If you spar in that context, Aikido technique will naturally arise. Will things look slightly different than forms, yes, everything gets smaller, and less pronounced, but all the techniques of Aikido will be used. Not because we want to use them, but because they are the most natural thing to do.

I can remember well as kids that we would have mock fights as cops and robbers, cowboys and injuns, sometimes they would get overheated and twisting of limbs arose because we didn't want to hurt eachother by hitting..... it was a childish attempt at wrestling, sometimes we got hurt or a sprain, but we learnt how to grapple.
Kids don't do it now unless they join the local judo club....they would rather do it on the play station.....

What is really your sparring experience in TKD and Karate? Full contact or "tag"? What ruleset?. What is your knowledge of said arts (rank, years spent practising, tournaments you've participated? for I'd like to know if you are "old school" or "space age".

You'd probably call it full-contact. People really hit each other, and we had the occasional broken nose, broken rib, knockout, etc. It was an ITF school. I trained for, geez, I dunno...a bit more than five years. I dislocated my shoulder (not in training) a week before I was supposed to test for my black belt. While I was healing up, I had time to think about some changes that had been taking place in the school that I didn't like -- I had fallen victim to "black belt tunnel vision" for a bit there, and when I was forcibly idled, I had to ask myself the question whether I wanted to be there any more. The honest answer was no. So I walked away from it. I could have come back, tested and been handed a black belt, but it would have been the wrong thing to do for all kinds of reasons (which were basically the reasons why I was leaving).

I'm glad I have sparring experience. I think it taught me some very worthwhile things, and I do see those things missing in aikido as it's practiced where I train now. I see situations where I think that prior experience gives me an advantage in aikido training, even sometimes over people who have trained longer. It's nice to know that it's possible to introduce that element into aikido practice, but I don't have a grasp of exactly how it could be done.

Quote:

Demetrio Cereijo wrote:

Do you feel insulted?

The word "rationalization" usually connotes or implies excuse-making. Perhaps your usage is different.

I'm glad I have sparring experience. I think it taught me some very worthwhile things, and I do see those things missing in aikido as it's practiced where I train now. I see situations where I think that prior experience gives me an advantage in aikido training, even sometimes over people who have trained longer. It's nice to know that it's possible to introduce that element into aikido practice, but I don't have a grasp of exactly how it could be done.

I can remember well as kids that we would have mock fights as cops and robbers, cowboys and injuns, sometimes they would get overheated and twisting of limbs arose because we didn't want to hurt eachother by hitting..... it was a childish attempt at wrestling, sometimes we got hurt or a sprain, but we learnt how to grapple.
Kids don't do it now unless they join the local judo club....they would rather do it on the play station.....

I do think, with modern distractions (video games, ipods, cell phones etc.) there is a real lack of person to person contact. We are losing our ability to deal with real people, in real situations, and are overly focused on fantasy worlds. Sparring is something real, a true exchange between two living humans that will have a real outcome.

You'd probably call it full-contact. People really hit each other, and we had the occasional broken nose, broken rib, knockout, etc. It was an ITF school. I trained for, geez, I dunno...a bit more than five years. I dislocated my shoulder (not in training) a week before I was supposed to test for my black belt. While I was healing up, I had time to think about some changes that had been taking place in the school that I didn't like -- I had fallen victim to "black belt tunnel vision" for a bit there, and when I was forcibly idled, I had to ask myself the question whether I wanted to be there any more. The honest answer was no. So I walked away from it. I could have come back, tested and been handed a black belt, but it would have been the wrong thing to do for all kinds of reasons (which were basically the reasons why I was leaving).

Thanks.

Quote:

I'm glad I have sparring experience. I think it taught me some very worthwhile things, and I do see those things missing in aikido as it's practiced where I train now. I see situations where I think that prior experience gives me an advantage in aikido training, even sometimes over people who have trained longer. It's nice to know that it's possible to introduce that element into aikido practice, but I don't have a grasp of exactly how it could be done.

Well, finding balance between safety and intensity while keeping aikido technical-tactical-strategical-philosophical principles is the most complex part.

Especially because, imo, while on safety and intensity an agreement can easily be achieved*, on the t-t-s-p principles there is more "politics" and personal views involved.

If one says, for instance: "aikido is a weapons retention art" while other says "aikido is an empty hand standing grappling art" and other says "aikido is a striking+grappling+weapons use art" and so on, the possibility of developing a general method of sparring is very remote unless some consensus is made about what is aikido from a t-t-s-p point of view.

Trying to get a common definition of what aikido is could generate more conflicts and schisms than letting the issue go. Even if Doshu published an "Imperial Rescript on Sparring" it will be more damaging to aikido as a whole than Tohei resignment.

Quote:

The word "rationalization" usually connotes or implies excuse-making. Perhaps your usage is different.

Excuse-making is the connotation intended. But I don't see it as an insult.

---------------------
*Shodokan randori system (toshu & tanto) is a method which I think could be easily translated and adapted to other aikido styles as a starting point. Work from there and let it evolve.

If one says, for instance: "aikido is a weapons retention art" while other says "aikido is an empty hand standing grappling art" and other says "aikido is a striking+grappling+weapons use art" and so on, the possibility of developing a general method of sparring is very remote unless some consensus is made about what is aikido from a t-t-s-p point of view.

Trying to get a common definition of what aikido is could generate more conflicts and schisms than letting the issue go.

This gets to the heart of the issue. I think what is important, is for each approach to the study of Aikido find it's own sparring practice. I have one that works very well for what I believe Aikido technique to be getting at. I think it's the best, but that's because I'm me. Perhaps it's not, perhaps someone else's ideas work better, or approach from a different angle than I would take.

Sparring is important to martial arts practice. We should all have a sparring system. We don't have to agree upon the best one, but we should all be working towards one.