only FEW Christians actually to go Heaven

GOD, jesus, and the 144,000 CAN rule earth from ¨heaven¨. just like a person in arizona or texas has to obey laws that are created in washington DC
right?

That is a bad example, since both are part of the united states, which the laws are for. Also I never said it wasn't possible, it's simply that
scripture doesn't say this is the case.

jesus is king over all the earth along with the 144,000 under him. this doesnt automatically mean that they have to be ON earth.

Again, no it doesn't have to mean that, but scripture says that is what takes place. Christ returns from heaven to rule, does he not? Why would he
return to earth from heaven to rule, then go back to heaven to do it, when there is no mention of his return, again, back to heaven?

Originally posted by doctorex
I don't think either of us has said that they have to be physical, of course they are are going to be spiritual.

im sorry, then i dont understand your claim. i dont understand why or how you think that there arent people going to heaven when there are passages
that refer to it.

There are no passages referring to people going to heaven, plain and simple. You might read something like "before the throne of God" and assume
that you have to go to heaven to do that. Do you realize that even when a true Christian prays, they are spiritually going before the throne of
Almighty God, since Jesus' sacrifice has taken away the veil? Take the two end time witnesses for example....

Rev 11:3 And I will give power unto my two witnesses, and they shall prophesy a thousand two hundred and threescore days, clothed in sackcloth.
4 These are the two olive trees, and the two candlesticks standing before the God of the earth.
5 And if any man will hurt them, fire proceedeth out of their mouth, and devoureth their enemies: and if any man will hurt them, he must in this
manner be killed.

This passage says that they will be on the earth, but notice it also says they stand before God, and they are not in heaven!

From what I gather, by reading Revelation, Christ comes to mete out judgment upon the Earth. This is the execution of judgment that has already been
made in the court of Heaven. It looks like total annihilation to the population of the Earth, to me, and there are no survivors to be ruled by anyone
from Heaven, or anywhere else.

...spiritually going before the throne of Almighty God, since Jesus' sacrifice has taken away the veil?

Hebrews says Jesus went before us into the veil. The veil of the earthly sanctuary was rent, but that exposed Christ to the judgment that we
deserved, by his taking on our sins. There is another, the real place of global judgment, in Heaven. Revelation describes the sanctuary in Heaven
being filled with smoke so that none can enter. That is when judgment of the earth has concluded and there is no longer the opportunity for
repentance. Shortly after that is when Christ appears in the heavens with the angelic host to apply the sentence of judgment.

Originally posted by PreTribGuy
I suppose, Miriam, that I need to allow you to define "Salvation"?

depends on who your are talking about.

see what makes this discussion really hard is that alot of people dont understand perfection and how it relates to everything.

and if you are holding on to doctrines like the immortality of the soul, then perfection makes even less sense.

in order to understand salvation, you have to have a firm grasp of several things....

- the condition of the dead
- the hope for the dead
- what sin is
- what the ransom is
- what is god will for the future of mankind
- what is perfection

if you dont have a clear understanding about what the bible is saying about these things, then salvation is a very confusing subject.

for example -

if you say that the soul is immortal and that we go to heaven or hell after we die, then it raises certain questions like how does the resurrection of
the just and unjust fit in? if we were originally ment for heaven or hell, why was adam placed on earth? why was his punishment death? wouldnt death
be a good thing if you are going to heaven after?

so ill try to be brief and as basic as possible.

- the dead are non-existant. (eccl 9:5,10) they arent sad. they arent happy. there is nothing to them left but the dust that was their bodies. adam
became a living soul, he wasnt given a soul. adams was his soul. his soul was everything that made adam, adam. the soul is NOT immortal. (ezek 18:4).
when adam died, he ceased to exist. no part of him ¨survived¨. like a candle that gets snuffed. the flame is no more. it doesnt ¨go¨ anywhere, it
simply ceases to be.

- there is one thing that god keeps. he keeps the memory of us. (job 14:13) this memory of us allows him the ability to resurrect us. (john 5:29; john
11:25; acts 24:15) some get resurrected to heaven, and some to earth (which of course is the basic and current debate of this thread). the point is,
at some point people are resurrected. does this mean they are ¨saved¨? well we have to get into WHY they are resurrected.

- sin is rebellion from god. adam and eve broke none of the ten commandments and yet they received death. the simple answer to ¨why?¨ is because
they did something that god told them not to. they felt that god should not tell them what to do. that is sin. its an act of rebellion.

- the ransom is blood for blood. adam put god in quite a position. by sinning before he had children, he doomed all future offspring to the same fate
as him. romans 5:12 ¨Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have
sinned:¨. the reason this puts god in a weird position is because god´s absolute justice requires that sinners die (become non-existant). but
adam´s offspring are ïmperfect¨ (ill get into that later) and sin through no fault of their own but rather through that of adam. this unfairness is
also against god´s justice. the ransom is to ¨buy back¨ those who were sold to sin and death (eph 1:7). this is the first place that we see that
¨perfection¨is something more than an abstract concept. mankind (who is imperfect) cannot redeem itself. (psalm 49:7). a perfect man is needed to
undo what perfect adam did. jesus was made into a ¨perfect¨ man. (rom 5:18,19)

- god´s will for mankind has hasnt changed even despite the interruption of adam sinning. (isaiah 55:9-11) god made adam and eve, he put them in a
garden, a paradise, with animals and food. death was not something destined for them, it was only something that was a punishment. god wants us to
live peacefully on a paradise earth enjoying to fruits of our labor and enjoying each others company. if god will HAS to be fulfilled, then this
implies that god wants to restore that earthly paradise and wants to restore mankind to perfection. (gen 1:31)

- perfection is fulfilling the function we were designed for. if i was a toaster, likely my function would be to make toast. if i did not make toast,
if i was broken and unable to make toast, of what use am i to my owner? humans arent toasters and our ¨function¨ isnt exactly the same sort of
thing. likely our purpose is to take care of the earth and to enjoy life as we do it. however adam´s rebellion gave us an inclination to sin. to
understand this, look at the word inclination. if you put a ball on a table that is on an incline, the ball naturally will roll off.

so to illustrate our sinful inclination, imagine for a second that you are riding a bicycle. if your destination is a point on top of a hill, then the
ride would be hard. you are constantly in a state of exertion, struggling to arrive at the top. for us, this is what following god´s law is like. a
daily struggle. sometimes its big and it means fighting sexual impulses, or maybe its silly and small like not lying when its really inconvenient not
to. its uphill. sure, you could turn around and ride downhill, but then your not going towards your destination are you? some people say that you
should follow your heart and do what comes naturally. they arent too concerned that some people´s destination are up the hill, not down.

based on our own inclinations, i can imagine that being perfect is likely the opposite. adam´s inclination was to obey god. likely it would feel like
his destination of serving god would be at the bottom of a hill. even if he stopped peddling (put no effort), he would find it easy to obey god. for
adam, to sin was to turn the bike around and ride uphill. the only reason a person would go uphill is if they CHOOSE to go uphill.

ok all this said, how does this apply to salvation? well god´s desire or reason for going through all this trouble is so that he can restore his
relationship with us. to do this we have to be perfect. (2 cor 6:14) this is god´s short term purpose regarding adamic mankind, to bring us back into
a holy standing before him. this standard is something people dont really like to talk about.

so what is salvation? in my opinion salvation is actually surviving. sounds like circular logic but let me explain. if you are on the titanic, and it
is sinking, and someone gave you a ticket that guarantees a spot on a lifeboat, does this mean that your saved? in a way yes, you have the POTENTIAL
of being saved so in a weird way, yes you can say you are saved. however, the reality is quite different. you have to make sure that you actually get
onto to lifeboat. if you are still on the titanic while its under water holding the ticket in your hand, you can hardly claim you are still saved.

salvation is similar in the bible. we have this weird situation where we cannot earn salvation. you cant pay jesus for the ticket, you cant buff his
shoes or carry his luggage for him to get a ticket. at the same time there is a standard. what is god to do?

the answer is simple. resurrect everyone (acts 24:15), raise them to perfection (rev 22:1,2 (healing the nations)) then let satan present them with
the same choice he presented adam and eve (rev 20 7-9) then keep those who decide to continue their relationship with god, and destroy those who
choose not to. (rev 20:10,14,15) (mind you, things work slightly different for those with a heavenly calling) people will be able to make a decision
that isnt influenced buy sinful inclination.

do i think the thief was ¨saved¨? in a way, yes. the thief will get a second chance. (rev 20:12,13), during the thousand year reign under
jesus´rule, the thief will have the opportunity to make a decision free from the inclination of sin. in this respect, he will be judged ¨according
to his deeds¨. how he got that second chance however is by the grace of god.

however, the thief could still decide no to be saved. maybe he will realize that he doesnt want god to tell him how to live. some people WILL make
that choice (rev 20:15), so is the thief ¨saved¨, my answer is that it´s his choice, it depends on what he does, and that time will tell. but right
now... in this exact moment, the question is literally unanswered.

GOD, jesus, and the 144,000 CAN rule earth from ¨heaven¨. just like a person in arizona or texas has to obey laws that are created in washington DC
right?

That is a bad example, since both are part of the united states, which the laws are for.

its not a bad example. god´s government that he set
up for his son is not at all limited to earth. all creation is under jesus rule, including the angels. earth is only one part of the kingdom, just
like arizona is only one part of the USA. the president doesnt need to move to arizona to inact policy for those that live there does he?

Also I never said it wasn't possible, it's simply that scripture doesn't say this is the case.

again, thats not true. revelation is referencing and describing events that mostly occur in heaven. god´s throne which jesus is before is in heaven.
the 24 elders who are made kings and priests are depicted in heaven. the marriage between the lamb and his bride is in heaven.

you have references to a ¨heavenly calling¨, inheritance reserved for you ¨in heaven¨.

simply saying that the bible doesnt say this doesnt make it so. there are plenty of references

Again, no it doesn't have to mean that, but scripture says that is what takes place. Christ returns from heaven to rule, does he not? Why would he
return to earth from heaven to rule, then go back to heaven to do it, when there is no mention of his return, again, back to heaven?

because the context points to a figurative returning, not literal. there is no reason for jesus to return physically. he is a mighty spirit creature.
if one angel can kill 150,000+ assyrian soldiers in one night, why would jesus, who is probably alot stronger, need to return and physically make war?
the scripture in mathew says he returns in the clouds, revelation says he returns with his angels, nothing about those 2 scriptures suggests there is
anything ¨physical¨about his return.

its not a bad example. god´s government that he set up for his son is not at all limited to earth. all creation is under jesus rule, including the
angels. earth is only one part of the kingdom, just like arizona is only one part of the USA. the president doesnt need to move to arizona to inact
policy for those that live there does he?

It is a bad example, since the laws made in Washington are for the US, and both Washington and Arizona are within the US. Also, when it comes to the
Kingdom of God, the laws are already made, it's just that we here on Earth don't follow them, they are already being followed in Heaven. So, when
scripture talks of God's kingdom coming, do the math.

Also I never said it wasn't possible, it's simply that scripture doesn't say this is the case.

again, thats not true. revelation is referencing and describing events that mostly occur in heaven. god´s throne which jesus is before is in heaven.
the 24 elders who are made kings and priests are depicted in heaven. the marriage between the lamb and his bride is in heaven.

Again, it is true, it doesn't say all events happen in heaven, does it? It says before the throne. And we have already discussed the 24 elders, they
are not made kings and priests in heaven, they are angelic beings. Scriptures says plainly that only Christ is resurrected from the dead, until the
time of his coming, which hasn't even taken place yet, has it, so how do you explain that verse away. I would be interested to hear that. You also
have to understand what it means to be before the throne of God, as I have explained, you don't have to be in heaven, since Christ dwells in us, and
us in Christ spiritually, so therefore, through Christ, if we have the spirit of God dwelling in us, we too can go before God's throne in prayer
whenever we want, doesn't mean we have to literally go to heaven.

you have references to a ¨heavenly calling¨, inheritance reserved for you ¨in heaven¨.

Again, you don't seem to understand what the heavenly calling is, and what is explained as in scripture. The inheritance reserved in heaven is the
gift of eternal life, doesn't mean you spend eternity in heaven.

simply saying that the bible doesnt say this doesnt make it so. there are plenty of references

because the context points to a figurative returning, not literal. there is no reason for jesus to return physically. he is a mighty spirit creature.
if one angel can kill 150,000+ assyrian soldiers in one night, why would jesus, who is probably alot stronger, need to return and physically make war?
the scripture in mathew says he returns in the clouds, revelation says he returns with his angels, nothing about those 2 scriptures suggests there is
anything ¨physical¨about his return.

So do you believe that Christ doesn't return at all to Earth, but does all this from heaven, and it's all just figurative?

Just because a being is spiritual doesn't mean they don't have a present location, Christ's current location is at the right hand of God. Even
after Christ's resurrection, when he was then spiritual, his spiritual location was on Earth, since he said not to touch him since he had not yet
risen to his Father (as the wave sheaf offering if you understand Israelite law), meaning he was spiritual, yet not in heaven, but on Earth!

You may not be understanding the context of this thing about being in Christ. It is talking about righteousness. Our lack of perfection is hidden
within the righteousness of the Son of God. I think you are carrying the concept beyond what the original intent was.
Jesus died a substitutionary death for us and he now stands as the representative for all believers before the judgment seat of God. He does not carry
us with him but has our names written in the book of remembrance. We are not before God any more than a person in jail is in a court before the judge,
in the person of his attorney.

Originally posted by doctorex
There are no passages referring to people going to heaven, plain and simple.

you mention to the witnesses, ironically they do ascend to heaven

rev 11:[9] And they of the people and kindreds and tongues and nations shall see their dead bodies three days and an half, and shall not suffer their
dead bodies to be put in graves.
[10] And they that dwell upon the earth shall rejoice over them, and make merry, and shall send gifts one to another; because these two prophets
tormented them that dwelt on the earth.
[11] And after three days and an half the Spirit of life from God entered into them, and they stood upon their feet; and great fear fell upon them
which saw them.
[12] And they heard a great voice from heaven saying unto them, Come up hither. And they ascended up to heaven in a cloud; and their enemies
beheld them.

matt 24:[29] Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall
fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
[30] And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man
coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
[31] And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end
of heaven to the other.

what are his elect doing in heaven?

mark 13:[27] And then shall he send his angels, and shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from the uttermost part of the earth to the
uttermost part of heaven.

again, what are the elect doing in heaven?

eph 2:[4] But God, who is rich in mercy, for his great love wherewith he loved us,
[5] Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved

[6] And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus:

col 1:[5] For the hope which is laid up for you in heaven, whereof ye heard before in the word of the truth of the gospel;

Originally posted by doctorex
Again, it is true, it doesn't say all events happen in heaven, does it? It says before the throne. And we have already discussed the 24 elders, they
are not made kings and priests in heaven, they are angelic beings.

we didnt discuss it. you claimed that the elders dont say ¨us¨ in the original greek, i showed you that it did. you basically moved on.

Scriptures says plainly that only Christ is resurrected from the dead, until the time of his coming, which hasn't even taken place yet, has
it, so how do you explain that verse away.

there´s nothing to explain away. this scripture in no way conflicts with heavenly hope. just means they arent resurrected until christ´s parousia
starts. this verse affects WHEN they are resurrected, not WHERE.

i also showed evidence that christ´s parousia has already started (either in this thread or the other just like it)

You also have to understand what it means to be before the throne of God, as I have explained, you don't have to be in heaven, since Christ
dwells in us, and us in Christ spiritually, so therefore, through Christ, if we have the spirit of God dwelling in us, we too can go before God's
throne in prayer whenever we want, doesn't mean we have to literally go to heaven.

true, however the context of the scriptures can be taken in spatial context. so while your theory is acceptable and plausible, its by no means
definitive.

Originally posted by doctorex
There are no passages referring to people going to heaven, plain and simple.

you mention to the witnesses, ironically they do ascend to heaven

rev 11:[9] And they of the people and kindreds and tongues and nations shall see their dead bodies three days and an half, and shall not suffer their
dead bodies to be put in graves.
[10] And they that dwell upon the earth shall rejoice over them, and make merry, and shall send gifts one to another; because these two prophets
tormented them that dwelt on the earth.
[11] And after three days and an half the Spirit of life from God entered into them, and they stood upon their feet; and great fear fell upon them
which saw them.
[12] And they heard a great voice from heaven saying unto them, Come up hither. And they ascended up to heaven in a cloud; and their enemies
beheld them.

Firstly, they ascend to "heaven" at the end of their witness, which goes for 1260days BEFORE God. Now....

matt 24:[29] Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars
shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
[30] And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man
coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
[31] And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end
of heaven to the other.

what are his elect doing in heaven?

mark 13:[27] And then shall he send his angels, and shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from the uttermost part of the earth to the
uttermost part of heaven.

again, what are the elect doing in heaven?

Secondly, you have to understand what is meant by heaven, and where the elect will be at the return of Christ when he gathers them. The word
translated as heaven is.....

ouranos

1) the vaulted expanse of the sky with all things visible in it
a) the universe, the world
b) the aerial heavens or sky, the region where the clouds and the tempests gather, and where thunder and lightning are produced
c) the sidereal or starry heavens

2) the region above the sidereal heavens, the seat of order of things eternal and consummately perfect where God dwells and other heavenly beings

It means both the dwelling place of God, or just simply the sky, the air, or the celestial heavens. Now, where is this "heaven" talking about when
it says the dead (including the two witnesses) will rise to?

1THESSALONIANS 4:16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the
dead in Christ shall rise first:
17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be
with the Lord.

In the air! This is the "heaven" being spoken of, if you let scripture interpret scripture.

eph 2:[4] But God, who is rich in mercy, for his great love wherewith he loved us,
[5] Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved

[6] And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus:

Again, the word here translated as "heavenly places" (epouranios) means more than simply the dwelling place of God.

Originally posted by doctorex
Again, it is true, it doesn't say all events happen in heaven, does it? It says before the throne. And we have already discussed the 24 elders, they
are not made kings and priests in heaven, they are angelic beings.

we didnt discuss it. you claimed that the elders dont say ¨us¨ in the original greek, i showed you that it did. you basically moved on.

And I showed you it didn't. It's a question of manuscripts, and some things are pointless discussing in that field.

Scriptures says plainly that only Christ is resurrected from the dead, until the time of his coming, which hasn't even taken place yet,
has it, so how do you explain that verse away.

there´s nothing to explain away. this scripture in no way conflicts with heavenly hope. just means they arent resurrected until christ´s parousia
starts. this verse affects WHEN they are resurrected, not WHERE.

i also showed evidence that christ´s parousia has already started (either in this thread or the other just like it)

It has not yet started, this resurrection takes place at the last trumpet....

1Corinthians 15:52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised
incorruptible, and we shall be changed.

1THESSALONIANS 4:16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the
dead in Christ shall rise first:
17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with
the Lord.

Revelation 10:7 But in the days of the voice of the seventh angel, when he shall begin to sound, the mystery of God should be finished, as he hath
declared to his servants the prophets.

Revelation 11:15 And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of
our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign forever and ever.

You may not be understanding the context of this thing about being in Christ. It is talking about righteousness. Our lack of perfection is hidden
within the righteousness of the Son of God. I think you are carrying the concept beyond what the original intent was.
Jesus died a substitutionary death for us and he now stands as the representative for all believers before the judgment seat of God. He does not carry
us with him but has our names written in the book of remembrance. We are not before God any more than a person in jail is in a court before the judge,
in the person of his attorney.

That is what Christ said, believe it or not. If you do not believe that we also dwell in Christ, then you do not believe that Christ said the father
dwells in him, and he in the Father. IF you understand it, that was why Christ died, to cleanse us of our sins, not just to pay our penalty for death,
but to cleanse us so that God's spirit could dwell in us, so that we could perfect our righteousness. That is why the Apostles didn't even receive
the Holy Spirit until after the death of Christ. John 14 is a most telling chapter if you understand what is being said, especially about the
"mansions" in God's house. The word translated as mansions is the exact same word translated in verse 23 as "abode", talking of God and Christ
making their abode with us. If you understand that context, then you understand that the many mansions in God's house Christ is not about massive
houses in heaven we live in when we die, but what Christ was talking about is in reality the members of God'schurch, in which God dwells, and in in
turn, we dwell in God through Christ.

If you think you are a Protestant, you need to rethink your theology because you sound like a Catholic.
We are not in this lifetime going to be glorified like Christ, so when we reach the end of this life, we need to find our righteousness in Christ and
not in ourselves. If you are a Catholic, don't worry about what I am saying, but if not, you need to be concerned and read some of the old
Reformation authors about justification by faith.

If you think you are a Protestant, you need to rethink your theology because you sound like a Catholic.
We are not in this lifetime going to be glorified like Christ, so when we reach the end of this life, we need to find our righteousness in Christ and
not in ourselves. If you are a Catholic, don't worry about what I am saying, but if not, you need to be concerned and read some of the old
Reformation authors about justification by faith.

I am not catholic or protestant, both are fundamentally the same thing, since most of the beliefs of protestantism come directly from the catholic
church anyway, such as Sunday worship, the trinity etc. I never said anything about being glorified in this lifetime like Christ. What I am saying is
simply about the spiritual indwelling of God's spirit, in our human flesh.

The reformation authors knew nothing of faith, they didn't even understand what grace is (the calling of God), because none of them had God's
spirit, though no doubt they believed they did, just like so many today. God cannot dwell in sin, and scripture says that sin is transgression of the
law. How many of them obeyed the law of God, such as the 7th day Sabbath. They say you don't need works, only faith, but scripture says that faith
without works is dead. If you are protestant, I think maybe it is you who needs to re-think your theology.

More than you probably know about. The mention of their Sabbath
keeping has on purpose been removed from the history books.

If you are protestant, I think maybe it is you who needs to re-think your theology.

If you mean I do not understand the Protestant
religion, then I would disagree. If you mean I should consider not being a Protestant, that is not going to happen.
Apparently you do not consider yourself a protestant and you would be correct in not accepting that as a description of your belief.
I am not telling what you should believe in, just stating that I do not think you are right.

More than you probably know about. The mention of their Sabbath
keeping has on purpose been removed from the history books.

Yes, you most probably correct there. I don't mean to dismiss the reformed protestants, I just wish they continued it all the way, and completely
came out of Babylon.

If you are protestant, I think maybe it is you who needs to re-think your theology.

If you mean I do not understand the
Protestant religion, then I would disagree. If you mean I should consider not being a Protestant, that is not going to happen.

No, I did not mean to insinuate you did not understand your religion, but I wish you would consider changing it. Protestantism is simply an offshoot
of Catholicism, one of the daughters of Babylon. The Catholic church considers themselves the mother church, and one day her daughters will come back
to her. If you believe the RCC is Babylon the great in Revelation, take special note of what it calls her...

Revelation 17:5 And upon her forehead was a name written, MYSTERY, BABYLON THE GREAT, THE MOTHER OF HARLOTS AND ABOMINATIONS OF THE EARTH.

The Roman Catholic Church
The Roman Catholic Church is thought by some to be the mother church of the Protestant and other churches that broke away from it over time. Prominent
among these are Lutheran, Reformed, Anglican churches and other Christian faith communities formed over time from these.

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