pennybug84 wrote:I have to agree w/Corona on the previous conversation. Jacob is a manipulator. Just because he is immature (one of the reasons I don't like him) doesn't mean he can't manipulate Bella. I know someone who is immature & yet she is a very good manipulator. For me one of the biggest examples of this is the kiss in Eclipse. Jacob manipulates Bella into kissing him.

I agree totally that he is capable of manipulating Bella while being immature. But to manipulate him on the level required in this story as a whole? Not a chance.

There are certainly times in the story that he does manipulate (such as in the kiss), but that's not high level manipulation. Saying "I'm going to kill myself!" is pretty basic. But the rest of it is not. To have it as such a plan as you're suggesting here is just ridiculous. He would have to be pure evil for that, and there's no suggestion that is so. When not overwhelmed by jealousy he does do the right thing.

It's why Edward is always calling him on it. Bella doesn't see his manipulations for what they are. But EVERYONE around her does. Why he does it, ie immaturity, lashing out, overwhelmed by his emotions, whatever, doesn't make it any less manipulative.

Edward, as I recall, calls him out on it once. I don't recall anyone else saying at any point that they think Jacob is manipulating her. Alice is worried about her spending time with Jacob, but that's more because she can't see her when she's with Jacob. She also comments at the end that it's hard for Bella having to "choose between two good things". Do you honestly think she'd say that if she thought Jacob was masterfully manipulating her for nothing but selfish gain? No way!

When Angela mentions Jacob, she suggests that he is in love with Bella, not manipulating her, and I can't recall another mention. Charlie much prefers Jacob. There is no evidence in the books that everyone around her is warning her to stay away from Jacob.

It's interesting to note that most of the arguments you're using to prove that Jacob is manipulating Bella purely for selfish gain are exactly the same ones I've heard Team Jacob use to prove that Edward is manipulating Bella purely for selfish gain. Perhaps there is some middle ground where both teams can meet ....

Tornado wrote:There are certainly times in the story that he does manipulate (such as in the kiss), but that's not high level manipulation. Saying "I'm going to kill myself!" is pretty basic. But the rest of it is not. He would have to be pure evil for that, and there's no suggestion that is so. When not overwhelmed by jealousy he does do the right thing.

Thank you so much, that's what I wanted to say but couldn't find the words!! I do agree that Jacob sometimes manipulate Bella, but not in a machavellian way. And if he does that for his own gain, I'm not sure that he is aware of what he is doing.

Here the way I see it: when he manipulates her, it's mostly when he is overpowered by his emotions, it's not something he has premeditated. When he is alone and able to think properly, he doesn't want to hurt her to win. I really think that he is not smart enough and cares to much for Bella to have a great plan like this.

I agree. Jacob is spontaneous. He sees Edward as a monster, and his basic reaction is to try and save her from him. He believes her life is a stake. His behaviour is appalling, yes, but not deliberately malicious. He just doesn't pause to think about the consequences of his behaviour. All he can think of is that he must save her. In his eyes, the end justifies the means. This is why he's still not repentant at the end of Eclipse. He thinks Bella will die, and so he went all out to save her, without pausing to think much about how he was going about it. I'm sure now that he knows Edward better he realises it wasn't the right thing to do, although he probably still believes he wouldn't have been true to himself or to Bella, for that matter, if he hadn't tried.

Tornado wrote:I agree totally that he is capable of manipulating Bella while being immature. But to manipulate him on the level required in this story as a whole? Not a chance.

There are certainly times in the story that he does manipulate (such as in the kiss), but that's not high level manipulation. Saying "I'm going to kill myself!" is pretty basic. But the rest of it is not. To have it as such a plan as you're suggesting here is just ridiculous. He would have to be pure evil for that, and there's no suggestion that is so. When not overwhelmed by jealousy he does do the right thing.

I'm not sure we have the same interpretation of the word "manipulate" then. When I think about his manipulations, I don't think it makes him evil. He is engaging in behavior and making comments that he hopes will lead to the outcome he wants. His intent behind his manipulation is simple. Present himself as the better partner in order to get Bella to choose him over Edward. That is not evil, persay. But, I do take issue with his behavior and, while I don't think it makes him a bad person, I think it does make him selfish.

Tornado wrote:

It's why Edward is always calling him on it. Bella doesn't see his manipulations for what they are. But EVERYONE around her does. Why he does it, ie immaturity, lashing out, overwhelmed by his emotions, whatever, doesn't make it any less manipulative.

Edward, as I recall, calls him out on it once. I don't recall anyone else saying at any point that they think Jacob is manipulating her. Alice is worried about her spending time with Jacob, but that's more because she can't see her when she's with Jacob. She also comments at the end that it's hard for Bella having to "choose between two good things". Do you honestly think she'd say that if she thought Jacob was masterfully manipulating her for nothing but selfish gain? No way!

When Angela mentions Jacob, she suggests that he is in love with Bella, not manipulating her, and I can't recall another mention. Charlie much prefers Jacob. There is no evidence in the books that everyone around her is warning her to stay away from Jacob.

It's interesting to note that most of the arguments you're using to prove that Jacob is manipulating Bella purely for selfish gain are exactly the same ones I've heard Team Jacob use to prove that Edward is manipulating Bella purely for selfish gain. Perhaps there is some middle ground where both teams can meet ....

Sadly, there really doesn't seem to be a middle ground. Both "sides" vehemently defend their champion. But, when I look at it, intention is always where I see the difference. Edward's intentions to keep Bella human are for her. Jacob's are for himself. Edward says over and over, whether she chooses to stay with him or not, he wants her to have a chance at a normal, human life. Jacob just wants her for himself. He does not differentiate between her choosing to stay human and her choosing him. They are one and the same to him. He does not see the possibility of her choosing to stay human but not being with him. To see the truth of this, you only have to look at the options each young man tries to offer Bella. Edward offers her every alternative he can think of to keep her from what he sees as the wrong choice, right down to telling her point blank that he will gladly step aside and out of her life if she wants to be with Jacob, his greatest rival and fiercest enemy. Jacob only says repeatedly stay human and be with me.

Edward only calls Jacob out to his face once. But, he is always aware of what he's doing, and points it out to Bella several times. But, as he says, he decides to take the high road and not put Bella in the middle. As for the comments of others, again, I think it comes down to whether you believe that just the act of manipulating Bella makes him evil or a bad person. I don't think that. I don't think most others do either. He can still be a fairly good person, but be trying to manipulate the situation and the people around him to get what he wants. Alice's comments, I think, are an extension of Edward's desire not to put Bella in the middle. Angela is right. Jacob is in love with Bella. But, again, being in love with her does not mean he's not manipulating her and the situation to get what he wants. He's manipulating her because he's in love with her, just as Edward does. Where I see the difference is in who is doing it to be selfish, and who is being selfless.

I don't deny that choosing Jacob could allow Bella to have a good life. But, I also know that a human life with Jacob is never what Bella wants. And, when it is all said and done, Edward honors Bella's choice for her life, and Jacob never does. And there is lies the difference.

Jazz Girl wrote:Edward only calls Jacob out to his face once. But, he is always aware of what he's doing, and points it out to Bella several times.

Sorry, I can't remember him pointing it out to her at any point. At first he objects to her being with him because she won't be safe, then he backs off and says he will trust her. I don't remember them discussing Jacob other than those two times.

Jazz Girl wrote: Alice's comments, I think, are an extension of Edward's desire not to put Bella in the middle.

I disagree. Alice is clearly against Jake early on (when she holds Bella hostage) and there's no sign that she is avoiding the issue. I don't think she is as sensitive as Edward. However, I don't think there is a compelling argument for either case. I just can't see her saying that Jake was a good option unless she meant it.

Jazz Girl wrote:Angela is right. Jacob is in love with Bella. But, again, being in love with her does not mean he's not manipulating her and the situation to get what he wants. He's manipulating her because he's in love with her, just as Edward does. Where I see the difference is in who is doing it to be selfish, and who is being selfless.

I don't deny that choosing Jacob could allow Bella to have a good life. But, I also know that a human life with Jacob is never what Bella wants. And, when it is all said and done, Edward honors Bella's choice for her life, and Jacob never does. And there is lies the difference.[/color]

I agree completely. Jacob is in love with Bella, and he does try to manipulate her at times. And he is doing this, at least in part, for selfish reasons. It is simply the level of manipulation and evil that you all seemed to be attributing to Jake, rather than just saying that he was an impulsive kid who was in love and extremely jealous and did some things that he really shouldn't have done, although he did have good motivations in one respect (he truly believe Bella would die if she stayed with Edward, and didn't want that to happen). But describing him as some kind of machiavellian bad guy who is solely trying to whisk Bella away for his own gain is going a bit far. Yes, he certainly wants her for himself, but there were good motivations as well. Yes, he went waaaaaay too far, but that's because he's immature and hasn't learned to think twice and trust other people's judgements, not because he's evil.

Jazz Girl wrote:Edward only calls Jacob out to his face once. But, he is always aware of what he's doing, and points it out to Bella several times.

Sorry, I can't remember him pointing it out to her at any point. At first he objects to her being with him because she won't be safe, then he backs off and says he will trust her. I don't remember them discussing Jacob other than those two times.

The most straightforward time that Edward points it out to Bella is directly following the kiss before the battle. Pages 532/533 in the US hardcover edition. Edward explains to Bella that Jacob would have kissed her even if she hadn't asked him to. "Bella, did you really believe he was that noble? That he would go out in a flame of glory just to clear the way for me?...You're such a bad liar, you'll believe anyone with the least bit of skill." But there are other moments, more subtle, comments made in front of rather than directly to her. I suppose some of it depends upon your interpretation of the text. His warning to Jacob about not kissing Bella without her permission always seemed to me to be a dual-purpose statement as well. Obviously, first and foremost meant to warn Jacob about forcing Bella to do something she did not want to. But, on the other hand, also pointing out to Bella that Jacob was very comfortable pushing her limits and that he was proud of her for finally pushing back.

Tornado wrote:

Jazz Girl wrote:Angela is right. Jacob is in love with Bella. But, again, being in love with her does not mean he's not manipulating her and the situation to get what he wants. He's manipulating her because he's in love with her, just as Edward does. Where I see the difference is in who is doing it to be selfish, and who is being selfless.

I don't deny that choosing Jacob could allow Bella to have a good life. But, I also know that a human life with Jacob is never what Bella wants. And, when it is all said and done, Edward honors Bella's choice for her life, and Jacob never does. And there is lies the difference.[/color]

I agree completely. Jacob is in love with Bella, and he does try to manipulate her at times. And he is doing this, at least in part, for selfish reasons. It is simply the level of manipulation and evil that you all seemed to be attributing to Jake, rather than just saying that he was an impulsive kid who was in love and extremely jealous and did some things that he really shouldn't have done, although he did have good motivations in one respect (he truly believe Bella would die if she stayed with Edward, and didn't want that to happen). But describing him as some kind of machiavellian bad guy who is solely trying to whisk Bella away for his own gain is going a bit far. Yes, he certainly wants her for himself, but there were good motivations as well. Yes, he went waaaaaay too far, but that's because he's immature and hasn't learned to think twice and trust other people's judgements, not because he's evil.

I never described Jacob as a "machiavellian bad guy" or as evil. In fact, I said several times that he is not evil. He is immature and impulsive and willing to do what he has to do to have the girl he wants. Again, just because he does manipulate Bella for what I believe are selfish versus selfless reasons, it does not make him evil. I believe he is motivated by more selfish gains in that he doesn't differentiate between Bella staying human and Bella choosing him. To him, they are one and the same goal. Keeping Bella human keeps her with him, plain and simple. Again, my greatest issue with Jacob's battle for Bella's heart comes when he refuses to accept her wishes. Being in love with her doesn't excuse that. It doesn't make him evil. It just makes him wrong.

Jazz Girl wrote:The most straightforward time that Edward points it out to Bella is directly following the kiss before the battle. Pages 532/533 in the US hardcover edition. Edward explains to Bella that Jacob would have kissed her even if she hadn't asked him to. "Bella, did you really believe he was that noble? That he would go out in a flame of glory just to clear the way for me?...You're such a bad liar, you'll believe anyone with the least bit of skill."

Okay, that's a good one.

Jazz Girl wrote:But there are other moments, more subtle, comments made in front of rather than directly to her. I suppose some of it depends upon your interpretation of the text. His warning to Jacob about not kissing Bella without her permission always seemed to me to be a dual-purpose statement as well. Obviously, first and foremost meant to warn Jacob about forcing Bella to do something she did not want to. But, on the other hand, also pointing out to Bella that Jacob was very comfortable pushing her limits and that he was proud of her for finally pushing back.

Yes, it does depend on your interpretation. And I disagree with that interpretation. In fact, one of the things that I think allowed Bella to fall for Jacob more and more was the fact that Edward (at least up until the point you raised above, after the worst had happened) does not address this issue with her. SM has suggested this in some of the things she has written, saying that he backs off completely at this point, not wanting to pressure her in any direction. So I think, until where he speaks up after the kiss, he doesn't do enough to communicate this to her.

Jazz Girl wrote:I never described Jacob as a "machiavellian bad guy" or as evil. In fact, I said several times that he is not evil. He is immature and impulsive and willing to do what he has to do to have the girl he wants. Again, just because he does manipulate Bella for what I believe are selfish versus selfless reasons, it does not make him evil. I believe he is motivated by more selfish gains in that he doesn't differentiate between Bella staying human and Bella choosing him. To him, they are one and the same goal. Keeping Bella human keeps her with him, plain and simple. Again, my greatest issue with Jacob's battle for Bella's heart comes when he refuses to accept her wishes. Being in love with her doesn't excuse that. It doesn't make him evil. It just makes him wrong.

You may not, but other people in this post (or was it the other Team Edward post? I'm getting confused!) seemed to be ascribing an additional level to his manipulation and intent. You did say that he was so bad that everyone was warning her about him, and there is no evidence of that. That statement brings to mind above level manipulation. It had to be pretty bad for everyone to notice it.

Jacob does accept her wishes ... eventually. And it can be argued that the reason he persists is because he knows that Bella does love him to. SM has said as much. I'm not saying he's upset about the fact that he loves her, but it does add an extra element to what he's doing. I must confess though, I would like to ask SM if Jacob would have fought quite so hard if he'd thought that Bella would end up with Mike Newton!

Let me add something in about some of my own posts, because we are all discussing essentially the same thing but taking different sides on a statement that SM made on her website; I think it may have well caused the most controvery out of everything that she has said.

Jacob doesn't have a tragic flaw. He has one goal and one hope. His goal is to save Bella's life. His hope is that he'll win her heart in the process.

I would agree with that statement with certain caveats. The first is that this is exactly what Jacob tells himself. The second is that he has a very difficult time trying to keep this straight. And the third is that it only works if you keep it locked within the EC story, and even there you have to look the other way sometimes.

Whenever I do bring up Jacob's bad behavior, it isn't to portray him as evil, it's to point out that he is violating that statement by allowing his anger and jealousy to get out of control. And when he allows that to happen he no longer has any excuse. I can absolutely understand and relate to Jacob's reactions, he really does want to save Bella, but I agree 100% with Jazz Girl that he can't see Bella staying human without choosing him. And he is insanely jealous. All imminently relatable and understandable, but certainly not noble.

I don't blame Jacob for being human, and I certainly don't consider himself evil.

In my opinion, his final talk with Bella in EC showed that he had risen to a level of self-consciousness that he no longer gets a free pass for just being youthful and rash and that he has entered the adult world of accountability.

"It will take an amazing amount of control,” she mused. “More even than Carlisle has. He may be just strong enough…the only thing he’s not strong enough to do is stay away from her. That’s a lost cause.”

Tornado wrote:You may not, but other people in this post (or was it the other Team Edward post? I'm getting confused!) seemed to be ascribing an additional level to his manipulation and intent. You did say that he was so bad that everyone was warning her about him, and there is no evidence of that. That statement brings to mind above level manipulation. It had to be pretty bad for everyone to notice it.

Jacob does accept her wishes ... eventually. And it can be argued that the reason he persists is because he knows that Bella does love him to. SM has said as much. I'm not saying he's upset about the fact that he loves her, but it does add an extra element to what he's doing. I must confess though, I would like to ask SM if Jacob would have fought quite so hard if he'd thought that Bella would end up with Mike Newton!

Just because Jacob's manipulations are obvious to anyone not blinded by their own guilt doesn't raise them to the level of evil. It just makes them exactly that, obvious. Charlie sees it, but because he's essentially rooting for Jake, he accepts it, sees it as just a part of Jacob making his play for Bella. As you said, Angela sees it. Mike Newton, Ben Cheney, Tyler Crowley, Alice, Rosalie. What he's doing is pretty obvious to everyone except Bella because his motives are lost on her. In her head, he doesn't have a chance, so why would he keep trying. It's part of the reason that she never calls him on it.

I completely accept that Bella loves Jacob. I just don't accept it as an excuse for his behavior. She may have loved him. But, she was also bluntly honest and completely adamant that she loves Edward more and that she only ever wants a future with Edward. It is his refusal to accept that, to continue to manipulate her and push every boundary she (admittedly very weakly) tried to set that raises my ire and my objections.

The subject of whether or not Jacob ever truly accepted Bella's choice, gave up his efforts to save her... Well, that has led to some of the most epic discussions on these boards. Some say yes, he accepted that she chose Edward and gave up his fight. Many so no, he never gave up on her and followed through with his vow from Eclipse, "until your heart stops beating." Again, that is evidence subject to interpretation. But, I will say that I whole-heartedly believe that, if he had given up and let her go, the reception would not have been nearly as eventful.

corona wrote:In my opinion, his final talk with Bella in EC showed that he had risen to a level of self-consciousness that he no longer gets a free pass for just being youthful and rash and that he has entered the adult world of accountability.

I think a greater part of my issue with Jacob, honestly, is that I always hated that he is given a free pass because of his youth and inexperience. Yes, Edward has lived for 106 years (at the time of Eclipse's publishing), so, yes, he's lived longer, gained more insight and experience. But, he's experiencing these events, emotions, reactions, everything for the first time ever, just as Bella and Jacob are. He's essentially shut that part of himself off for 90 years, refusing to acknowledge it, trying to control the loneliness and the inadequacy that he felt because he felt as if he would be alone forever. And it was easier to just disconnect than to continue experiencing those feelings and wanting those feelings, particularly in the face of living with 3 sets of perfectly matched partners. So, when it comes to dealing with matters of the heart, opening yourself up to those emotions, learning to accept the realities of them, he is every bit as immature and impulsive as Jacob is, as Bella is. And yet, he's the only one who we expect that ,just because he's been alive longer, he magically knows all about how to communicate, how to relate in that kind of relationship, how to accept and address fears and threats and desires and needs in that context.

If anything, I always saw Edward at much more of a disadvantage than either Bella or Jacob, because he never learned how to work through those issues. We learn to be in a relationship by observing the relationships around us; our parents, family members, friends. We learn through trial and error in our early relationships. But, Edward didn't get to do any of that. His human memories are lost through the transformation. So any insight he might have had from his parents or family is gone. When he was turned, we know that he hadn't yet experienced those early attempts at a relationship. But, even if he had, again, those memories are gone. Within his vampire family, he's only ever seen three pairs of mated vampires. The emotions are crystalline, intense and unquestionable. From what we see, once a vampire chooses a mate, that relationship is unchallenged and immediate. So he never witnessed any of his brothers have to deal with questioning whether or not they were the right one for their partner. He never saw his mother or sisters question whether their partner was the right man for them. We can assume that, because there is friction in every relationship, there were disagreements and fights. But, also, given what we know of the 6 vampires in question, I'm willing to bet that none of them pushed each other, challenged one another the way Bella does Edward. So, why is it that we just expect Edward to magically know how to communicate with Bella, how to turn off his instincts and give over control to her?

Jazz Girl wrote:Just because Jacob's manipulations are obvious to anyone not blinded by their own guilt doesn't raise them to the level of evil. It just makes them exactly that, obvious. Charlie sees it, but because he's essentially rooting for Jake, he accepts it, sees it as just a part of Jacob making his play for Bella. As you said, Angela sees it. Mike Newton, Ben Cheney, Tyler Crowley, Alice, Rosalie. What he's doing is pretty obvious to everyone except Bella because his motives are lost on her. In her head, he doesn't have a chance, so why would he keep trying. It's part of the reason that she never calls him on it.

If I'm understanding you correctly, you're saying everyone is recognising Jacob as a manipulator? I disagree with that. As you say, Charlie sees Jake making a play for Bella, but that doesn't mean that he sees manipulation going on. And although Angela sees that Jake loves her, neither she nor the other school kids have seen enough of Jacob to see much of his interaction with Bella. The Cullens probably see it, yes, but they don't discuss it with her anywhere.

Bella does know he's still trying to win her, but not that he's manipulating her. Is that what you are trying to say?

Jazz Girl wrote:I completely accept that Bella loves Jacob. I just don't accept it as an excuse for his behavior. She may have loved him. But, she was also bluntly honest and completely adamant that she loves Edward more and that she only ever wants a future with Edward. It is his refusal to accept that, to continue to manipulate her and push every boundary she (admittedly very weakly) tried to set that raises my ire and my objections.

But the reason he is pushing is because she is denying that she loves him. He can't help but think that, if she does know, it might change her mind and she will leave Edward for him. Once she admits that she loves him and still chooses Edward he knows he hasn't got anywhere else to go, and says that he is going to be "good", although he does make sure that he leaves the avenue open. And I think that he does try to be good. Like your typical teenager, he doesn't do a stellar job, but he tries.

Jazz Girl wrote:[color=#4040FF]I think a greater part of my issue with Jacob, honestly, is that I always hated that he is given a free pass because of his youth and inexperience.

But do you believe that just because he behaves that way? Just because SM allows this kind of behaviour in Jacob doesn't mean she's saying it's okay for him to behave like this. This is just Jake, in all his faulty glory. This is just the way he is. It makes him unattractive in a lot of ways, just as Rosalie's selfishness makes her unattractive. It's what makes it so easy for me to say that I'm not Team Jacob, or even Team Switzerland - at least, until he has grown up a bit and learned some manners.

And I'm not saying that Edward is at fault because he didn't talk to her about this. The only reason I mentioned that was to demonstrate that he didn't talk to her much about this, whereas you were suggesting he did. It's easy to understand why he would have backed off a little at that point, especially since, as SM says on her website, part of him wants Bella to have a normal life with Jacob. It's just part of his selfless love for her, which just makes me love him all the more. He wants what's best for her, without any reference to what that might do to him. It's a far superior trait to Jake's attempt to save Bella, which, though focussed on saving her to a certain extent, also has a lot of self interest in its motivation.