Little Cultural Guide:
Roughly speaking, in Spain there are 4 groups of regions, more related because of their cultural histories:
- Galicia: they speak Spanish and Galician, a language very closely related to Portuguese. Education can be received in both languages, as well as used with the administration. Local TVs are in Galician. Most people consider themselves both Spanish and Galician, and local nationalism is very low.
- Basque Country + Navarre: they speak Basque and Spanish. In some areas Basque has not been spoken for centuries, in others it is very strong. Education can be received in both languages, as well as used with the administration. Local TVs are in both languages. In most areas there is a strong nationalist feeling (which even lead to terrorist movements, such as ETA).
- Catalonia + Valencia + Balearic Islands: they speak Catalan and Spanish. Catalan is almost the only language in rural areas, while Spanish prevails in cities. Catalan is the only language in education and in the administration. Local TVs are in Catalan. In Catalonia there is a widespread nationalist feeling, in Balearic Islands it's smaller, and in Valencia almost irrelevant.
- Castillian Spain: rest of Spain, where only Spanish is spoken. It is the only language for all public services.
In Castillian Spain and many other parts, Spain is considered a single nation. In other cases, Catalonia (for instance) is considered a different nation, assuming that Spain is the rest (non-Catalonia territory). Both feelings coexist in these territories, in varying proportions. This produces odd results: a native Spanish speaker from Catalonia may consider himself only Catalan, considering a Catalan speaking Valencian to be Spanish and, thus, foreigner.

Reading all the comments, for me only one thing is clear, Catalans and the rest of Spanish readers are improving their English... once more they just want to show up their differences in a foreing language... many of them are civil servants at national and regional governments paid to disseminate their propaganda...

After the debacle that is sure to come (one way or another), I wonder whether the saner Catalans will have a new slogan? Something like "no mas Mas"... would be too fitting.
Mas makes used car salesmen look like the apotheosis of probity...

So many people opine that I feel overwhelmed. So I will limit my contribution to a few short, factual statements, for the benefit of those able to extract value from them.

1 - Decentralisation

Spain's regional governments spend a greater share of all public-sector expenses than any othe in the EU.

2 - Centralisation

The PP government has not introduced a single piece of legislation centralising any decision-making process, in the 11 months it has been in power.

3 - Education

Public schooling in Catalonia is run by the Catalan government and taught exclusively in Catalan language. Every subject is taught in Catalan, except Spanish itself, which is taught as a foreign language.

4 - Use of Spanish language

Over 90% of newspapers bought Catalonia are printed in Spanish.

Over 90% of movie tickets bought in Catalonia are for films dubbed into Spanish. The Catalan government forces motion-theaters to show minimum quotas of movies dubbed into Catalan, which are deemed uneconomic by theater-owners.

5 - Taxes

The Madrid region is, by far, the largest contributor in terms of taxes in Spain, not only corporate or indirect (VAT), but also personal (income). Income tax paid in Madrid is about twice as much per head as it is in Catalonia, due to greater number of workers on high salaries, and higher number of urban dwellings exceeding tax allowance value limitations.

6 -Fiscal transfers

After the current EU budget negotiations conclude, Spain is likely to become a net contributor to the EU.

It is reasonable to expect that a richer, independent Catalonia be a propronally greater contributor than Spain.

Whereas the government of Catalonia has issued a calculation about the deemed amount of transfers to poorer regions within Spain (purportedly 8.5% of GDP), it has failed to provide an estimate of potential contribution by an independent Catalonia to the EU budget.

7 - Trade

No estimates have been provided of the reduction on trade with Spain as a consequence of independence

On point 6 I would like to point out that in the latest year for which full data is available Catalonia received in Govenment spending 4,016 million euros MORE than was paid in to central coffers by catalan taxpayers.

This gives the LIE to the standard catalan battlecry of the last few years that have consistently said that the Catalans have 'been robbed' of 16,000 million more euros than they have received.

On point 7 it has been estimated by a a prestigious economic think tank that Catalonia would lose about half of it's exports to Spain and 20% of it's GDP.

First of all, you need an ENEMY. This is the most important step. You need to convince the people that all their problems are due to that enemy's vile actions and hate towards you and not due to your own incompetence and corruption.

You need to control the PRESS, RADIO and especially TELEVISION. You fill all posts in public broadcasting with acolytes and you subsidise heavily all non-publicly owned newspapers and radios.

You need to control the EDUCATION SYSTEM. You rewrite the history books and you replace the teaching staff in the public sector with people who have been ideologically vetted and impose rigid controls on private schools. You take over youth groups and cultural organisations by subsidising those that toe the party line.

You need a LIE. It must be simple to say but very difficult to refute without a lot of complicated explanations. 'Spain robs us' is a particularly good example and replaces the 'Catalonia has been oppressed for 300 years' that almost nobody believes in any more.

You need TIME. Thirty years or so of repeating every day through your controlled Press and Education system the nationalist mantra that everything bad is due to the hateful policies pursued by the Enemy should be enough.

Finally, you need to stage a massive DEMONSTRATION in order to whip up popular enthusiasm. You cannot go to war or declare independence without this essential step. You use public TV/Radio to generate the necessary zeal (for example, catalan TV spent 317 hours in August and September in promoting the 11th Sept. demonstration. You arrange and subsidise coaches and trains to bring in as many people as possible and your official crowd estimates should be at least three times the real figure.

Will this enable you to create a Nation State?

No, but it does allow you to call a snap election and have almost everybody forget that your handling of the economy has been a DISASTER, that your region is BANKRUPT, your public education system the second worst in the UE27 and that a large number of your party leaders are indicted for CORRUPTION.

There are two kinds of nationalists.
1) (Spanish)nationalists like you. These Spanish nationalists pretend to impose their language, their culture and their traditions to other nations (Calatonia, Basque country)
2) (Catalan) nationalists just want to have the right to decide its future because they are not Spaniards. They are different. They are not better, but they are not worse either.
As the UK has done with Scotland, Spain should let the people of Catalonia vote. I know you are a Spaniard, but you should be democratic.

You are right about nationalism as it of course also applies to Spain. In terms of achievements I would keep my mouth shut as there are not many areas in which Spain impresses the world. You talk about bankruptcy when Spain is about to be bailed out. But who are you trying to convince ? Spain is at the bottom of Europe on any socio-economic issues. It has no democratic tradition whatsoever and the current constitution had to be negotiated with the fascist military. The sooner the Catalans leave Spain the better. When this happens you will have the freedom to sort out Spain with a GDP amputated by 20% and with 16 billion less in your coffers. This looks promising indeed. You must be joking.

" impose their language, their culture and their traditions to other nations (Calatonia, Basque country)..."

Where's your proof? Because Castilian (Spanish) is the national language does not mean that it is being imposed. Since Franco's death, the government in Madrid has encourage regional languages and these are recognized.

Since Catalonia is part of Spain (and unlike Scotland it has NEVER been independent), it is natural that it also use the country's lingua franca, in this case being Castilian. Every country in Europe has at least 4 or 5 additional languages. And to interact with people from outside your region, a common language is critical.

Catalonia's language has been politicized to the point that others that share the same language (Valencia comes to mind) have been put off. Language is a tool for communication and that's it. Catalonia's politicians have leveraged this to cause divisions and foster acrimony. What's interesting in that these nationalist want to be joined at the hips to Brussels (because of the euros), but despise Madrid. Too bad these politicians don't channel these energies to building a better country. Any fool can divide; it takes skill and intellect to actually build something lasting, qualities that no nationalist ever possesses.

Romulo, not only I agree with you but I couln't have said it better. Your logical and factual arguments are in stark contrast with the irrational rants of both MJB and localdjv.

While Spain is working hard at solving its issues, catalonia is being seduced by the totalitarian experiment proposed by its corrupt "elite" and will pay the ultimate price, it will become a backwater of the Iberian peninsula.

No need to copy and paste into every thread about "the Catalan problem, romulo.

Spanish nationalists need an enemy, of course. But they also need to reassure themselves that the enemy is benighted enough to go all the way to hell... alone, which you seem to believe is where Catalans are heading because they dare say that they do not accept any longer being patronized, plundered and expected to say thank you and smile on top.

I would not say that much, that is, I would not say that ALL the Spanish media are controlled by the Government or by a particular clique, but cliques there are, and you need not go further ahead than "Intereconomía", "El Mundo", "La Gaceta", "ABC"... to discover who is against Catalonia.

The education system has been handed over to Catalonia by the central government. And this is a lie: The Catalan high-schoolers are better, by a good percent in speaking and writing ARTICULATE and SOPHISTICATED SPANISH than the remainder of Spain. Foreign or not, in Catalonia SPANISH is BETTER taught than in the remainder of Spain -which is what matters in the end.

Lie?. Remember the OPA on ENDESA and the rallying cry in Madrid?. I will refresh your memory: "Antes extranjeros que catalanes" ("Aliens rather than Catalans"). Is this a lie? And if Spain does not "rob us", why the hell the opposition at finding out themselves?. You know, if this is a lie, or a misconception, meking it transparent and allowing them access to both the figures and the allocations would shut all those liars once and for all (and rub their noses in the dirt in the process)

TIME: thanks to the Central Government. Then, the matter is rolling everything back and starting with the "recortes" for the "Estatut" and everything.

And, yes, Catalans are stupid. They do not really want to make their voice heard; They are just a herd who you can manage -by the million, that is- so that you raise your finger and there they are, unquestioningly.

Oh yeah. Corruption. And Spain will teach us the truths on the matter.

As for the nation state, wait and see. It is either that or Spain is a federal state. That depends on Spain precisely, because a 2/3 majority in the Spanish Parliament is necessary to amend the constitution. But it will be either this or secession -AND SPAIN HOLDS THE KEY. Have heard nothing about any step in this direction -which means that Spain is stubbornly deaf and expects this to be sort of an attack of flu which will heal by itself. Repeat: Wait and see.

And as usual: "Spaniards have it clear: These Catalans are crazy or silly: Why should they leave our benign and enlightened tutelage and try to go it alone?"

Catalonia will have a rough year or two ahead if secession is a fact. But Spain will be much worse, for longer.

But no, "genio y figura hasta la sepultura".

Cheers

And, please, THINK A BIT before reposting a former post. It is good, even for your own intellect.

I am afraid your analysis is somehow simplistic. The bottom line of the elections is the consolidation of pro independence. CIU was never a pro independence party, which is why many voters didn't trust them on this and voted instead for ERC. Also many CIU anti independence voters didn't vote for CIU either, which explains the significant increase of C's party. So CIU was hit from both sides and now are left with having to form a government which will have to implement even tougher measures. Understandably no one else wants to be part of this. The only way ahead is for Artur Mas to stick to his guns on a pro independence process, which should lead to a fast referendum and to go for independence. Since one of the main causes of the eceonmic difficulties is being part of Spain, this would sort out the two problems at once.

do the people of Catalonia know that if they choose independence they will automatically have to withdraw from the EU? spain is a member NOT Catalonia... this applies to Scotland as well. Then the new state would have to negociate a new membership ( that requires unanimity of the others), likely to be refused by Spain ! Then they would also have to renegociate their euro membership and all the treaties Spain has signed in its name... Sure the people of Catalonia will think twice....since they have not much top offer on an economic level.

Yes, Spain is a United Kingdom (a Union of kingdoms) because as title of kingdom itself as Spain was not until recent times. Thats the reason of its composed coat of arms in the center. And its own flag is some kind new: 1793 (year up, year down). Spain is the name that had the peninsula on Roman Empire times, as also happens with Brittain. Difference with Brittains is that in Spain, the "main" nation (Castille) denies the existence of the others (like if in Great Brittain, English would deny that scotts and others are nation). That also happens in France (brittains, occitans, catalans..), but there the roman name was lost too. All that "romantic" points of view would become useless if the current spanish state would be neutral, but from the catalan point of view, the castillian spanish state is deeply inequitable when decides the economic affairs and frontally opposed to catalan culture every time that has the opportunity. The evolution of rights to learn or use of the catalan language in the last years in the areas out of catalonia are backing to the bad times if ever could leave them. As example, in the aragon strip where catalan is spoken (90% of population uses it; was part of catalonia before xixth c.) is not teached, recognized (called "eastern aragonese) nor is cooficial. Situation at balearic islands or valencia is also bad if has ever been good. In Alicante city, own langauge has gone to be widely used years ago to have only a 3% of use nowadays. Litle villages around still has the own language widely used, but theres no doubt that will disappear in the next years. Tv channels on catalan, as example, have been banned all around recently (high fines to TV3 in that area ...). Our spanish state fights againts our culture, and thats not good.
A detail: Duran i Lleida (UDC) is a catalan from that aragonese strip.

I am a bit disappointed at your simplistic analysis of how the votes for and against independence stand: saying that the votes CiU have lost have gone straight to ERC is not an in depth analysis. Certainly, some of CiU's electorate have decided to vote ERC, however, CiU have, since 11/9/2012 adopted a far more independentist stance, not pleasing, as you say, a non independentist part of their electorate, who may well have voted Ciutadans or PP. Those who have stayed with CiU have become more favorable to independence,and some, though nowhere near the entirety you suggest have preferred to vote the original (ERC);therefore a correct analysis would be a clear growth in independentists and not just a radicalization you describe.

I suggest that you consult the latest CIS report before attempting to suggest that votes have gone from CiU to Ciutadans. Ciutadans is a left of centre party that vigorously opposes catalan independence and the right-wing policies of Artur Mas.

The growth of the vote for Ciutadans is entirely due to the collapse of the socialist vote in the working-class suburbs of Barcelona. This reflects the immense gulf between the PSC leadership and their voting base.

No, sir. That's exactly the opposite of truth. Votes have shifted from CiU to ERC, that is, in favor of independence.

And Ciutadans grew to the cost of the PP. This was, primarily, a vote on parties "for keeping the status-quo" with Spain or to change it (federal state or independence). Ciutadans and the PP got ALL the votes in favor of maintaining the status-quo and, had Ciutadans not been there, ALL their votes would have gone to the PP -at least in THIS ONE poll.

Catalonia will become independent from Spain. The fact is that unionists have only a speech based on feelings, not facts. The proces iniciated with this elections, has been extremly short (not even 2 months) and it has been full accusations to the most important candidate. We have much more time for the next referendum, and those allegations will turn against the ones that made them. By the other hand the facts will become clearer to people, and a bigger percentage will see that independency is just a matter of improving our contry without loosing none of our qualities. My concern is that in the meantime spain is heading towards the total colapse, and will drag Catalonia down too.

An assertive statement based on gut feeling, patriotic pride and nationalistic chauvinisme.

The argument of the unionists is that 77.2% catalans consider themselves to be spanish (CIS study 6 weeks ago), out of Spain means out of the EU, trade tariffs would harm exports to EU states, a big negative imbalance between social security payments (pensions, unemployment) and contributions, a huge catalan debt, a current account deficit of more than 4 billion euros, catalan government non-payment of social care providers, an ENORMOUS level of corruption within both the Convergencia and the Socialist parties and a very long etc.

You might want to jump off a cliff, but the majority of catalans will stick with Spain (which is NOT heading for collapse; quite the contrary).

I think that more than junping from a cliff, catalans will have to jump out of the hole thant spain is digging to bury itserf.I must remmeber you that ALL thesurveys failded, so better listen to the real polling. What you say about leaving EU must be clarified. What is EU? Will catalunya leave shengen? NO, there is no need for it, and Spain cant veto it neither. When you say that spain is not heading for collapse, you mean the real figures concerning debt, unemployment, depression? For what i see, you prefer Rajoy's forecasts that do not match with Brussels or OECD ones.
Finally, what i really want is a better world for my kids, and for what i see in 35 years of been spanyard, its seems to me that the best way for Catalunya and for Spain too (to which i wish the best), is to split and go our own ways.

Very curious, how crystal clear the Spanish "unionists" hold the belief in the "ENORMOUS level of corruption within both the Convergencia and the Socialist parties and a very long etc." and just tiptoe (or wish into oblivion) the Spanish one -which, by the way, has already been proved in most cases, and guilt verdicts have been served, contrary to most of the cases about CiU, or the PSC).
Remember the "hermanísimo" Juan Guerra and his pals?, and the Generalitat valenciana? and the PP government in the Ballearic Islands?.
Remember also that, awhile back, when a Catalan group set up an IPO (Spanish: OPA) for Endesa, the rallying cry was "antes extranjeros que catalanes" (aliens before Catalans) and -through a costly legal battle, they succeeded and it is now Italian?
The overwhelming quantity of Catalans want the relation rules changed, either through an amended constitution and a federal state or through secession, but what is for sure is that, one way or another, they WILL change. Best for both? Federal state, of course, not secession. Second best? Secession. Not an option? keep going as usual. And the shift in votes (actually, seats, which is what counts in Governance terms) from CiU to Esquerra means that the matter is radicalized: CiU is more prone to federalism, Esquerra is hell bent in secession.
That is, the solution is to change the relation. But this is fully (in the first place) in Spain's field. To do so, Spain's parliament, by a majority of at least two-thirds, must amend the Constitution. If this is not done, then it is secession, period. So IT IS ENTIRELY IN SPAIN'S HANDS.
And I am quite amused at seeing that everybody has it clear: If Catalonia secedes, that's a "second Albania" for Catalonia. What is in store for Spain?. This is the real "woolly thinking", Charles Ernest.

I noticed a parallel between the Iberian Peninsula and the British Isles:
Portugal = Republic of Ireland, Catalonia = Scotland, Basque = Wales turned politically violent as Ulster.
So maybe Spain could become "The United Kingdom of Castille, Catalonia (or Aragon), and Basque (or Navarra)"?

'Spain' already is the united kingdom of Castille, Leon, Navarra, and Aragon. It is what is represented in their coat of arms.
Portugal has very little similarities with Ireland I'm afraid. It is the oldest nation-state in Europe, and always had far more importance in the Peninsula and the world than Ireland ever did. And wince we are talking of Unted Kingdoms, Portugal created the first transcontinental 'Commonwealth' under one crown, long before the British.. The united kingdom of Portugal, Brazil, and the Algarves.
Regards

The Spanish coat of arms is divided in four quarters. The 1st quarter, which usually represents 'varonia' (although i am not sure whether the Varonia belongs to the Castillian monarchs) is the coat of arms of the royal house of Castille (a castle), The second quarter is the coat of arms of the royal house of Leon (a Lion). The third quarter represents the coat of arms of the royal house of Aragon (in yellow, four vertical red stripes). the fourth quarter represents the coat of arms of the royal house of Navarre (in red, that golden cross chain). In the escutcheon (which is that centre point) you have the royal arms of the house of Bourbon (the three fleurs de lis in blue)

The first NATION-STATE in the modern sense (that is, a state possessing insitutions actually representing the people, the nation - in other words: with a fully representative parliament) are - you might have guessed it - THE NETHERLANDS, who became a nation-state in the 17th century. Britain, the US and France were next in line (in that order).

Nations may be older, the concept of nation-state was first "created" in the Netherlands in the 17th century.

Unworthy of a reply. The Netherlands were merely the first Spanish colony if you will.

Read about the 1383-1385 crisis, Fernão Lopes, etc. and you might get a glimpse of what 'nation-state' is about, and how Portugal first created the 'product' although didn't really 'patent' it. Consider it another one of Portugal's 'gifts' to the Netherlands, among many others

These are two posts of mine from the new blog Pomegranate. The article and some of the posts referred to mythology, etc.

Accrux Nov 2nd, 13:50

Before Persephone— abducted by Hades—left the Hades, the underworld thanks to her mother Demeter, Zeus and Hermes, Hades gave her pomegranate seeds and asked her to eat them, which forced her to return to the underworld for a period each year.

After the Nasrid Kingdom (Emirate) of Granada (Imarat Gharnatah) http://www.euratlas.net/history/europe/iberica/peninsula_iberica_1400.html was finally conquered by the Catholic Kings (the end of the Reconquista) and incorporated into the Crown of Castile in 1492, this was symbolized by the addition enté en point of a quarter for Granada ("enté en point, Argent, a pomegranate proper seeded gules, supported, sculpted and leafed in two leaves vert.")

I tried to reply to your Cabaret-Money post several times, but when I clicked 'post' there was a 'loading' and then a warning from my browser. TE's website seemed to be having some technical difficulties ("Sorry, we are..."). By the way, I don't like the new font and size, the non-highlighted hyperlinks, etc. What do you think about this?

Sorry, small guy, but the Netherlands (= today's Netherlands, the northern part of BeNeLux) were never a "Spanish colony", nor even in possession of the Hapsburgs. Large swaths of today's Belgium (= southern parts of BeNeLux) was once a Hapsburg fief.

Small, but important note: The Hapsburgs, the foremost German-Austrian and in fact European noble family, owned Spain, and not Spain Hapsburg lands. As Hapsburg fief, those territories in today's Belgium remained part of the Holy Roman Empire, and were never part of Spain.

If anything, Spain was a "Hapsburg colony", to use your awkward terminology. Charles V was born in Ghent (today's Belgium), and Emperor of the Holy Roman Empire before he was anything else. (In Belgium, he's referred to as "le roi allemand", by the way.)

Other than that: "nation" and "nation-state" are two different concepts - and it's academic consensus that the first nation-state were the Netherlands, followed a generation later by England, followed another century later by the US and France.

In my opinion, the most important thing is to recognise that Catalan society has a wide range of views. Catalonia is too complex to be viewed as a homogeneous entity and my main critique to Catalan nationalists is that are systematically trying to project a non-existent Catalonia in which a clear majority wants to become independent from Spain. That's not the case at all. As I said in my previous post, if we consider the amounts of votes (not the seats in Parliament)the percentages of support and opposition to independence are approx. 47% and 45% approximately. This is hardly a vast pro-independence majority.
In CIU's electoral program,page 13, they say: "a great majority of the Catalonia's citizens has realised that they are the main actors of a great change, of a transition that they undertake without ambiguities or limitations". To clarify, when they say "transition" they refer transition to an independent State.
If you consider the percentages above, it is easy to see that this is not a realistic representation of Catalonia. This is what they want Catalonia to be.
So, I won't go for arguing against or for independence. My argument is a much more simple one. I just want to say that Catalonia is diverse and heterogeneous and that the rest is just noise, manipulation and wishful thinking.

In fact, there were 2.140.317 votes for pro-referendum parties (61,6%) and 1.334.149 votes for anti-referendum parties (38,4%), including parties that they didn't obtain seats in the Catalan Parliament, as PxC (anti-independence and Spanish fascist party in Catalonia) or UPyD (pro-Spain unity party).

In the netx link there are some usefull information about the results of the Catalan elections:

Your percentages refer to votes for pro and against referendum parties. My percentages refer to votes for pro and against independence parties. As you might know not all the pro-referendum parties are pro-independence (PSC and ICV).
In the percentages that I give in my post, I make the big assumption that ALL CiU voters would vote for independence.
I'm not for independence but I haven't got any problem in accepting that a lot of Catalans seem to be in favor of it. I think that pro-independence people need also to accept the fact that they are not the clear majority that CIU believed they were. The reality is that the percentages are very similar.

The Spanish government should not negotiate anything with the catalan separatist mafia. If anything too much power has already been given to the region at the expense of national cohesion. The more concessions are given to the secessionists the more they will keep asking.

The catalan secessionist movent is racist and totalitarian by nature. It has no respect for individual rights (of catalans and non catalans alike) nor for rule of law (it routinely violates any legislation and court decisions). Such ideology cannot be acomodated, it has to be defeated for the sake of civilization.

If catalonia does secede, it will become a totalitarian terrorist state actively pursuing expansion plans through aggression (most notably to neighboring Spanish regions ofValencia, Aragon, and Balearics). In addition, an independent catalonia will export millions of refugees seeking to move away from ethnic cleansing, famine and oppression by the catalan mafia. Therefore, Spain has to stand firm in upholding the rule of law and protect the population.

Don' forget that we catalans have some weapons of mass destruction too. In fact it's for sure that catalans killed Jesus too.The catalan government has a plan to increase jobs: building scaffolds and gallows. New rope factories are also a good idea; now we don't have enough rope to hang them all.

John Cobra for president. Must substitute Rajoy -and institute immediate courts-martial for the corrupt Catalans in politics -and grant presidential pardon to the Spanish "camorra" of corruption (sorry, wanted to say mafia, but it is already taken up by JC for the Catalans).

Hahaha, you may use sarcasm but you are just being disingenous by negating the totalitarian racist nature of catalan nationalism. It invents fictitious grievances against an imaginary and impure ennemy to promote illicit interests of a small corrupt elite (yes, we can call them the catalan or barcelona mafia, eg: cIu, esquerra, etc) and the expense of the common people. That's why the catalan "elite" spend so much resources at indoctrinating people like you and spreading falsehoods everywhere. But the fact is that catalonia is already bankrupt before they even think of independence.

"...and the fact that Spanish central system is extremely unfair and always mistreated Catalonia."

While romulo wrote:

"The spanish system is just about the LEAST centralized in Europe..."

&c.

This is some historical information, because if you don't know a country's past (and no so past) you can't understand its present. Jorge Agustín Nicolás Ruiz de Santayana y Borrás, known as George Santayana, was born in Madrid in 1863 but (I quote),

"...he was raised and educated in the United States and identified himself as an American, although he always kept a valid Spanish passport. He wrote in English and is generally considered an American man of letters."

His phrase ""Those who cannot remember the past are condemned to repeat it" is famous.

This was the dream of many Castilian-Spanish nationalist centralists and still is for some. A unified country, a unified language, an absolute centre (Madrid, the capital, quite close to Spain's geographical centre).

Just one minor correction, Portugal's been an independent nation (de facto) since 1143, and if anything, its independence was from Leon.. The Habsburg rule lasted 60 years and was sold to the portuguese of the time that it would surmount to two nations under the same crown which was obviously not the case..

You are right that the Portuguese after 1640 stopped considering themselves Spanish, because the Spanish crown appropriated the name. If you read Camões for instance he speaks of the nações hispânicas ...

I wish more pratical matters being discussed... In the end that is what it will surmount to ...which money belongs to whom etc. It is the way of things .... This is important accrux...

Come on pedrolx, I have read several histories of Portugal, the first one was William C. Atkinson's 'A History of Spain and Portugal', published in 1960...

I know all that, but I wrote "Portugal finally separated from Spain in 1640-68", which after the 1580-1640 period is not a wrong affirmation, or is it? You should have written "addition", not "correction".

I read Camoens (translated into English by Atkinson, by the way) and I know his famous referenve to the Hispanic nations.

You wish... and I wish, i.e. we wish. But life is not only money, dear pedrinho, it's not only money...

Sorry you are right, it was an addition. I am afterall a patriot. ;-) and as you know Hisotrians agree that restoration could only have happened on one side of the Peninsula, so as you were losing your battle, Portugal won theirs... at the expense of quite a lot of things...

So hence the mixed feelings in relation to Catalonian independence. I think in most recent times the Portuguese have always felt as if Spain had become a very modern and free state, and I thikn the general feeling here was that the current 'Autonomias' model worked somehow. What transpires now is that it doesn't.

My point though is that at this day and age, it all comes down to tit for tat.I feared that the crisis in Spain could lead to stronger independentist movements, but perhaps I was merely being a pessimist and it's not that a big deal...

Albeit, I am pretty sure the emotional side of a very likely Catalan independence trumps or shadows the more pragmatic side of a 'Catalexit' which will surmount to some strange situations such as the ones described by me. I was also recently in Croatia, which resemble the Portuguese a lot more than I expected. Someone was telling me about their own plight to be independent. I know it is completely different. But the only compromise in their case was adding to everyone's passport to which minority they belong. Serbian being the most obvious but there are other minorities.

In the Iberian case, I don't know how this translates.

A funny story - once in Bilbao I was leaving my hotel room and I took the lift down and there were people inside, the lift stopped in the next floor down and some other people came in -and said 'Bom dia' (or what it sounded like Bom dia). I thought they were Portuguese. It turned out they were Catalan. So there, a Portuguese, several Catalans, in the Basque country )in a Spanish hotel) ;-).

Don't worry, I understand your reaction, but I had to react to your reaction so we would have a nice chain reaction... ;-)

", so as you were losing your battle, Portugal won theirs..."

I beg your pardon? "You"? Have I ever said that I am a Catalan or have I ever written "we" or "us" referring to Catalonia and Catalans? Pedrolx, I am NOT Catalan, I am not of Catalan descent, I don't live in Catalonia, I don't have Catalan relatives. I don't even speak Catalan fluently, but I can read it and understand it very well thanks to the fact that I speak fluently three other Romance languages and I have watched Catalan films and TV and I have read books and newpapers in Catalan. It's a language I like. I have been to Catalonia several times and I must say that I liked the country and the people.

Most people I know who have been to Catalonia and met people there liked the country and its people as well, but there is an anti-Catalan propaganda and a number of negative myths and stereotypes about Catalonia I find utterly disgusting. I have studied Catalonia's history and I had and still have some Catalan friends (who, out of courtesy to me, always refused to speak Catalan among them when I was present, in spite of my insistence, so how on earth do you learn a language?) The rest is honesty, sympathy, empathy and a sense of justice, that's all.

"Speechless"? =:-o Come on, don't exaggerate! Well, as long as you are not "fingerless"... I would really miss you, you know.

You have probably noticed that I very rarely reply to people —including you, Garaboncias and many others—and have a debate or an argument with them simply because they criticize Catalonia or pro-independence Catalans on purely economic, social or political grounds. Even on historical grounds, if they do it in a serious way. Not only because I respect their stances and opinions, which sometimes I even share, but because my knowledge of economy and sociology is limited. What I don't like is generally ignorant or biased people who try to belittle, distort or even negate Catalonia's history out of anti-Catalanism or with political purposes. I studied history and I usually debunk them.

You may have noticed as well that I always refer to Catalonia and Catalans (and to any other country) in the third person, they, them, their, theirs, and I don't speak on their behalf or try to represent them (how could I?), I just express MY personal opinions and, as usual, when I do it I only represent myself and speak on my own behalf. No country, group or religion has to pay for what I say, I am the sole responsible.

Let me say that you both are right. What happened is that king Philip II unified the whole peninsula. So for some decades, Spain, Portugal and all oversees territories where ruled from Madrid. That marked the highest territorial expansion of the Spanish Empire.
I haven't copied any link, but it is easy to check on wiki or any history of Spain book. However, thats the past.
Thanks for reading.

We live in interesting times. We've recently witnessed the creation of groups, lobbies, movements whatever, who've got an incredibly violent stance against the welfare state for reasons I do not really wish to debate.

I sincerely hope they do not succeed.

One could ask ourselves where does the Catalonian independence movement stand in all of this. I think that Spain has always been many 'Spains'. The current one, with this government, is a centralist, elitist, ultrareligious, aggressive one. Modern day Catalonia is the opposite of that. No wonder they want to drop out.

Today, we have new but no last corruption scandal in Catalonia,
this time with leading socialist personalities involved in ilegal commission system in the city of Sabadell.
¡Freedon for Spain !
¡Spain is not Catalonia !
¡Let´s get rid of catalonian mafia !

The growing number of Spaniards is sick and tired of Mr Mad Mas, his
corrupt party CIU and separatist intentions.
More and more Spaniards would welcome warmly the Catalan independence
to get rid of this mafia always asking for more money.
Catalonia today is bankrupt and bailed-out wth funds transferred
from the central government in Madrid.
Mr Mad Mas, Mr Pujol and his family will fight for independent Catalonia to avoid the prosecution and jail for capital and tax evasion to Switzerland and Liechtenstein.
Catalonia plays today in the Champion´s League of political corruption.

How weird. The growing number of Catalans is tired of Spain, of those 300 years of oppresion, of insults and of being despised for speaking a different language and being taxed to death at the same time.

You are kindly invited to declare the independence of Catalonia
as of tomorrow.
The overwhelming majority of Spaniards will celebrate.
Obviously, don´t count on Spanish money to bail-out
your corrupt political mafia.
Godd luck and good journey.

Let us continue the debate here as I thoroughly despise the economist's reply system...

If any referenda were to win, your major problem would be that one precisely - I mean the nationality choice would have to be given to Catalonian citizens as some may not want to lose their Spanish citizenship . Unlike in Croatia/Serbia or czechia/Slovakia where ethnicity is taken quite a lot more seriously, in Iberia we are all just a big mix, and in the end it will merely about how you feel, whether Catalonian , or Spanish ...

Anyway at the end of the day I have no real formed opinion on Catalonian independence because I believe people should be what they want to be ultimately there are quite a lot of pragmatic issues that are missing the debate, here and everywhere

The correlation between feeling only Catalan and wanting independence is not clear. Many Catalans are simply fed up with Madrid, regardless of whether they feel Spanish or not.

Also, note that in the same survey a mere 5.8% said they felt only Spanish, and a tiny 5.0% felt more Spanish than Catalan. Nearly 50% (49.2%) felt either more Catalan than Spanish or only Catalan. Bearing these figures in mind, it's quite clear which identity is stronger as a whole.

And there is no legal precedent within the EU for secession, and thus no reason to think that Catalonia, as an EU member (via Spain) for the past 26 years would suddenly and irrevocably be cast out of the EU, Euro, Schengen Area, etc. The Catalans are not proposing this, and I doubt it is in anyone's interest that this should take place. I'd predict that an independent Catalonia would see its economic relations perhaps briefly altered, but then would settle back into business as usual.