Yeah, it looks pretty on paper. But the govt is not accepting civil tech into defence offsets. They are only allowing dual use tech, which they are referring to as civil tech.

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you are welcome to believe whatever you want but the reality is whatever work Indian companies are given are given to fulfill offsets obligations.

To be sure, most of these deals with Tatas come as a result of the offset obligations foreign defence manufacturers have under which whenever India buys a defence product, foreign manufacturers have to source about 30% of the value of the contract from India.

Could this mean that as offsets end, so will the contracts at the facility?

Once the offset obligation is over, the real test of the facility will start. Tatas, like others, will then have to compete with others in the global supply chain.

Pilatus, for example, moved its manufacturing to Tatas from Poland-based PZL-Swidnik as India turned out to be cheaper. The Swiss company has offset commitments emanating from the sale of PC-7 MkII training aircraft system to the Indian Air Force.

Yeah, I know. For civilian tech, they accept such alternatives. Basically, they expect offsets from within the same sector. Pilatus doesn't make weapons. So the rules for them will be different, this will all be defined in the RFP.

If you buy a weapon, they expect offsets related to weapons. That's why Dassault was happy to provide tech for LCA. This way they could protect their Rafale IP and they could help India develop its own industry.

But Falcon line predated even MMRCA. Dassault wanted to setup a Falcon line in India under RIL, with Mukesh back in 2012.https://economictimes.indiatimes.co...er-aircraft-in-india/articleshow/49941456.cmsOfficials on the French side told ET, on condition of anonymity, that the agreement between Rafale and an Indian partner will be on the lines of the 2012 agreement between the French company and the Mukesh Ambani-led Reliance Industries.

Yeah, I know. For civilian tech, they accept such alternatives. Basically, they expect offsets from within the same sector. Pilatus doesn't make weapons. So the rules for them will be different, this will all be defined in the RFP.

If you buy a weapon, they expect offsets related to weapons. That's why Dassault was happy to provide tech for LCA. This way they could protect their Rafale IP and they could help India develop its own industry.

But Falcon line predated even MMRCA. Dassault wanted to setup a Falcon line in India under RIL, with Mukesh back in 2012.https://economictimes.indiatimes.co...er-aircraft-in-india/articleshow/49941456.cmsOfficials on the French side told ET, on condition of anonymity, that the agreement between Rafale and an Indian partner will be on the lines of the 2012 agreement between the French company and the Mukesh Ambani-led Reliance Industries.

Dassault to invest €100 million in joint venture with Reliance GroupThe joint venture, Dassault Reliance Aerospace Ltd, will manufacture aircraft components as part of the offset obligation connected to the purchase of 36 Rafale fighter jets from FranceA Staff Writer

Mumbai: French company Dassault Aviation SA will invest €100 million (around Rs760 crore) in its joint venture with Anil Ambani’s Reliance Group to manufacture components for its aircraft.

The joint venture, Dassault Reliance Aerospace Ltd, in which the French company holds a 49% stake, will make components for the Legacy Falcon 2000 Series of civil aircraft and be part of its global supply chain, the firm said in a statement. Production will begin from 2018.

The Reliance Group will make a similar investment in the joint venture, said Eric Trappier, chairman of Dassault Aviation. He was talking to reporters on the sidelines of an event to lay the foundation stone for Dhirubhai Ambani Aerospace Park, the joint venture’s manufacturing facility in Nagpur on Friday.

Reliance Group chairman Anil Ambani said both firms would bring in necessary funds in the form of debt and equity. He said Dassault’s investment was the largest foreign direct investment (FDI) in the defence manufacturing sector but didn’t explicitly state his group’s investments in the joint venture. In a separate statement, Reliance Group said that it was investing Rs6,500 crore in the 289-acre Dhirubhai Ambani Aerospace Park.

The joint venture’s production comes under the offset clause of the Rafale fighter jets deal signed by India and France last year. Under that agreement, France sold 36 Rafale jets to India for Rs59,000 crore; in return, French companies involved in the manufacture of the aircraft have to invest 50% of the amount in India’s defence manufacturing ecosystem and making components locally.

“We expect…over a period of time, India to be the global manufacturer of Falcon aircraft,” said Ambani at the event. “Over a period of time, the entire aircraft will be made in India.”

He said that the group expected other firms such as Thales SA, MBD Design and other international companies to locate their facilities in the Dhirubhai Ambani Aerospace Park.
Trappier of Dassault said that he had a target of selling about 1,000 Falcon jets over the next 10 years. He said that if the firm gets fresh orders for Rafale jets (apart from the 36 already ordered), then the firm would consider assembling the aircraft in India.

“We are ready to answer to the needs of the government of India for additional planes, for the Indian Air Force and Navy. This will go through the ‘Make in India’ policy for manufacturing parts of the Rafale (and) also assembly line,” said Trappier. He wouldn’t specify what was the minimum order needed to start assembly of these jets in India.

The joint venture has the maintenance contract for the 36 Rafale jets that have been ordered from France for 50 years, said Ambani. He said the JV will focus on both defence and commercial aircraft.

Reliance Group is increasingly focusing on defence manufacturing, which is a sunshine sector in the country after the government made it easier for private firms to bid for contracts, and as it looks to sell assets in other businesses to reduce debt.

In a shareholder presentation on its website, Reliance Infrastructure Ltd, the parent company of Reliance Defence, said that it saw a Rs15 trillion opportunity in the defence sector over the next 15 years.

Reliance Group companies have sued HT Media Ltd, Mint’s publisher, and nine others in the Bombay high court over a 2 October 2014 front-page story that they have disputed. HT Media is contesting the case.

you know this is something you want to believe but not the reality or maybe post something substantive to backup your claims.

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How do you prove something that's not true?

If Falcon was part of Rafale offsets, then it would have been public knowledge when we signed back in 2016. If Falcon was really part of offsets, why will GoI want to hide it? Everybody knew that Dassault was getting ready to move part of its Falcon production to India, so it wasn't a secret either.

The reason why only Rafale had a specifically increased 50% offsets compared to the normal 30% was to facilitate the development of India's defence aerospace. A Falcon line was counter to that objective.

In fact, Dassault pointed out that for the GTG they didn't want offsets at all, that they would rather setup a Falcon line or Rafale line as a separate investment under MII instead. Obviously, that was unacceptable to Parrikar, and I think you may already know my view on this.

If Falcon was part of Rafale offsets, then it would have been public knowledge when we signed back in 2016. If Falcon was really part of offsets, why will GoI want to hide it? Everybody knew that Dassault was getting ready to move part of its Falcon production to India, so it wasn't a secret either.

The reason why only Rafale had a specifically increased 50% offsets compared to the normal 30% was to facilitate the development of India's defence aerospace. A Falcon line was counter to that objective.

In fact, Dassault pointed out that for the GTG they didn't want offsets at all, that they would rather setup a Falcon line or Rafale line as a separate investment under MII instead. Obviously, that was unacceptable to Parrikar, and I think you may already know my view on this.

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I think you should read the article carefully I posted above.

The joint venture, Dassault Reliance Aerospace Ltd, will manufacture aircraft components as part of the offset obligation connected to the purchase of 36 Rafale fighter jets from France

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I mean what is so difficult there for you to understand? Everything is written in black and white.

Yeah, the article basically says Reliance will make Rafale components.

For Falcon, we need an entire line, not just components manufacturing.

I don't think you know this, but according to Rafale contract, movement on offsets was expected only a few months after contract signature. This Falcon line JV came up well after a year. Rafale offsets and Falcon have nothing to do with each other.

Yeah, the article basically says Reliance will make Rafale components.

For Falcon, we need an entire line, not just components manufacturing.

I don't think you know this, but according to Rafale contract, movement on offsets was expected only a few months after contract signature. This Falcon line JV came up well after a year. Rafale offsets and Falcon have nothing to do with each other.

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Again you are reading what you want to

the article sub headline itself says "The joint venture, Dassault Reliance Aerospace Ltd, will manufacture aircraft components as part of the offset obligation" and not just Rafale components