Now that we are live and some of you have spent some days in the lobby.This is your opportunity to offer up your suggestions for how things can be improved,things you like or things that could do with some tweaking.

What this post is not for is for people posting moaning and bitching comments.Constructive and thought out suggestions is what should be posted here.

Those ignoring the proper use of this post will have their posts removed.

- Make possible to enable "foul and a miss" rule in friendly matches, whatever rating we have. (see Jeef Lima's last post on FB) Un understand that you need some kind of snooker HC for events, but we would like to play snooker with complete rules in friendlies.

- A "leave after the" button for challenge matches. Sometime people are breaking too quick and we cant leave without forfeit

I don't see why turning it off makes it "friendly" or "not friendly". The rule is implemented as it should be. I think most players have a misunderstanding of what the rule is because they watch pro snooker and get the wrong idea about how the rule really works. See my blog post: http://vponline.celeris.com/blog/post/5

A leave after button will only get abused. You have all the time in the world to leave if you are breaking and plenty of time if there are players queuing. If in a 2 player room, tell the other guy you want to leave at the end of the game.

Very disappointing to see that we can not get the option of playing snooker matches without handicaps. Because that's how it is now. ALL snooker games are handicapped. And it's based on a very ridiciulous system too. Tell me one reason why I shouldn't enter some snooker matches, forfeit at the start to see my rating drop to 1500, just so I can be at advantage. You may as well scrap foul and a miss completely for "normal" matches if there's no option to play without handicaps. And keep this system for the tourneys which you can run handicapped if you want, even though it's a big shame, since many of us are very competitive and don't want a rule that would be more suitable in a school or on a table with amateurs.

Please, give us the option for friendly matches to play with the rule in a fair way. Since this is beta I really hope you'll consider if for the full release. I think I've been playing the most snooker of all players after release, and I have played most of the people that are in to snooker, and I haven't found a single one that is happy with how it's implemented. The snooker community isn't that big. Obviously more players will come but tbh more people are into 9-ball.

What I'm basically saying is that I'm more interested in being able to play without handicaps (same rules for everyone) than having an exact copy of pro tour rules. Because the way this is based on a rating that you so easily can change to whatever you want...it's just not good, and it sends out the signal that it's better the lower ELO rating you have, which I think is wrong. I think players should be encouraged to win matches, increase in ranking, without putting theirselves at disadvantage. If you consider the pro tour rule too advanced in general (which I can agree with), then find a way to make it "easy" for all players, not only some, in the same match. But I believe a must is to allow the better players to play by the pro tour rule in custom matches if they want to, and I really think this is the way to go in the more serious snooker tournaments, since otherwise people can just tap the ball when snookered, knowing it won't be foul and a miss. And that is hilarious to say the least, and will immediately make snooker tournaments lose its value because of the abusing you're allowing.

Edit: The reply on the blog post indicates we may get an on/off option for the future. Make it happen!

Lag for first break can be a severe disadvantage for the second player to enter the roomMore often than not, if you enter the room after your opponent, a split second after you get control over your cue, the other person has already struck their cue ball.This reduces your time to play a good lag shot to 2-3 seconds. And it doesn't help that the zoom level seems quite random (sometimes you're zoomed in with a bowling ball sized cue ball, sometimes it's zoomed way out).

Suggestion: Both players have to click a "I'm ready to lag" button before lag can begin, then both have at least the same amount of time to prepare. Or the game could wait until both players have pressed "S" for the first time.

Foul and a miss I absolutely have to agree. No matter the algorithm used, as long as you've got a low rating, it's easy to abuse it and gain an advantage. And even when it's not being abused, the wrong call is made too often. And while for non-snooker affiliated people it doesn't seem to be such an issue, I assure you it is for anyone who wants to play it like it should be played.

Suggestion: (AT LEAST) for friendly matches, there should be an option to make the non-shooting player the referee (just as it would be the case on a real table in lower leagues). At least then, when you play someone you respect and both know their approximate skill levels, it's much better to let the players decide if the shot was a good enough attempt to hit the ball on. No algorithm can make that decision robustly - not every one-rail kick shot has the same difficulty, some three-rail kicks are easier than a one-rail kick, sometimes spin makes a one-rail kick pretty easy, while without spin it's impossible. I think a player can judge all of that better than an algorithm (and I earn my living designing algorithms ;- ).

StatisticsAfter having played hundreds of racks and thousands of shots, it' close to impossible to see improvements from the stats. Playing two weeks in dead stroke won't change your shot making percentage by more than a fraction of a percent, and I assume that could be discouraging for some, and not very informative for others.Suggestion: Make it possible to show stats in time invervals (e.g. last week, last month, last year, ...).Also, at the time of writing this, there are 25 people that have a 100% money ball percentage on 9-ball, but almost all of those players didn't shoot more than 3 money balls. Not very meaningful if you ask me, and there will probably more 1 time only players filling up space in that list. Wouldn't it be better if the list only showed stats after a certain amount of games/shots have been made ?

Jump shots are too easy to executeWhile I don't have a suggestion to make it more difficult, without being easily circumvented by hardware/software cheats, I would like to see the option of dis-allowing jump shots (i.e. calling a foul on someone jumping over a blocking ball).

The table is unrealistically perfectI'm just putting this here to repeat what I've been saying for a decade now (I know it will be ignored or blamed ;- ). On a real table, small bumps in the cloth and other irregularities let slowly rolling balls deviate from their path. That's why pros use kill-shots when they need a slowly rolling cue ball and the distance to the object ball is larger than 3-4 diamonds, and in general prefer to use a pace that is more likely to prevent those table imperfections to have an impact. In VP however, people just roll the cue ball slowly across 9ft (now even 10ft) to make the pot with the highest possible percentage. It's bad for the game (or at least how it's being perceived by players being more used to the real thing), you see way too many people roll, even those who possess the skills to play more realistic.

Suggestion: Add some irregularities to the table that affect the balls (randomly) when they roll very slowly.

Btw, the same goes for when the cue is raised over a ball or the rail. You can be sure that there will absolutely be no swerving to the left or right as long as you don't touch "E". On a real table, such shots will also be played with higher pace to prevent swerving to kick in before the contact is made with the object ball.

Suggestion: place the tip randomly within 1 tip diameter from center ball before each shot. Then you can never be sure of a perfectly horizontally centered tip and have to think of the consequences when making certain shot (that will go 100% straight as it is right now).

I'm aware that the last two suggestions clearly would change the game from how it's been since the very first MS-DOS version. But it claims (and it has all the right to do so!) to be the most realistic simulation, and more so that it will improve your real game as well. I think it should at least be considered soberly whether table irregularities and tip placement imperfections that even the greatest real life players are facing on every shot should be simulated by VP4. Otherwise people will just pick up habits that they can't use in the pool hall, and VP will be less like in a pool hall.

I sincerely hope that wasn't tl;dr for most of you ;-)

Fritz

Last edited by deraltefritz on Fri Feb 28, 2014 7:43 am, edited 2 times in total.

Foul and Miss wont be abused,because if I hear that people are "abusing it" and you know what I mean by that....just pushing to a cush and not even attempting to make a genuine attempt to play shot,then they will be advised otherwise.They are not playing Snooker in the true spirit of the game which as Snooker players' ourselves we understand and those violating that part can have it explained to them.

If it happens in a tourney then after the advice and then if there is continuous abuse.appropriate action can and will be taken as the Tournament Director,Event Director or Admin sees fit.

The second thing to make clear about sandbaggers(those deliberately dropping their ratings in say a challenge room prior to a tournament)

Dont worry about that guys,the reason I say this is that the tourney system has other ways of determining people's rating for a tournament.What Im saying is that a sandbagger cannot hide the fact that they have dropped ratings points over a period of time.The tourney system can deal with that.At the moment we are testing standard handicap settings for the time being.

So give it time guys and dont get set on the one factor,you will see through time how the handicapping works.

wouldn't change the fact it will still be handicapped, which, if implemented in every snooker tournament in vp4, is sad. Because that means I probably won't be playing. Handicap is for friendly or beginner arrangements. But I believe I got one good question that should answer what your ideas are for this in a future perspective.

If you will host world championships in snooker. Will you run it with a system based on handicap (the foul and miss rule)? Or will you make the rules equal for everybody in the starting field, regardless of "rating"?

I'm not expecting a definite answer, and it's only in early beta, but you should have some sort of idea right now what your future intentions are for snooker tournaments when it comes to this rule.

I cant say anything on Virtual World Championships other than I regularly hosted two each year and they were not handicapped.VPBWC and the VWSC

I have no idea how any such tournament will be run in VP4 Online,but it would be fair to say that in order to enter a world championships you have to be clear that you are of a standard to make it worth your while(ie if you think your not good enough then you probobly are not)However if you want to enter a world championships and its handicapped,then you just might think you have a slightly better chance than if it were no handicapping at all.

Remember it has to be a fair system for everyone not just for a few

AndersE do you beleive that you would be good enough to pay your entry fee and have any chance of getting anything back from a World Snooker Championship without any handicapping?

Its clear to me that your confusing handicapping(that means someone getting 20 or 30 points a start each frame or getting say 3 frames in a race to 5)You seem to want to include foul and miss under the handicapping banner and that is not the case.

If you will host world championships in snooker. Will you run it with a system based on handicap (the foul and miss rule)? Or will you make the rules equal for everybody in the starting field, regardless of "rating"?

We probably will give an option in non even play for on/off/normal Foul and a Miss.

We won't in tournaments. Before you all start complaining, just play in them. And after you destroy all the low rated players, then you can stop complaining.Characterizing the Foul and a Miss implementation as a "handicap" for lower rated players shows you don't understand the rule.Watching lots of pro snooker does not make you and expert.

I don't think on/off/normal are the right options. There should be one that is based on human interpretation. At least in a friendly match, your opponent should also be able to decide whether it's a foul and a miss or not.

It's not about handicaps (and also not really about the possibility to abuse it), but about that an algorithm cannot judge whether someone made an attempt to the best of their abilities. It depends on so many things (whether there are easier shots available, but the striker picked the more complicated one because it will be less risky, how well someone can kick, and how easy/difficult the escape really is). I think that if you know your opponent (and chances are high in a friendly match), you know better than an algorithm.

The nice thing about foul and a miss is seeing how the player gets closer and closer to the target with each attempt. At least the algorithm should take into account how close the striker got to their target. For an average player, it maybe shouldn't call foul and a miss if they get very close. But in almost any case, it should be a miss if the cueball gets nowhere near to the ball on.

PS I don't think we should use this thread for discussing foul and a miss only. It's for suggestions !

deraltefritz wrote:I don't think on/off/normal are the right options. There should be one that is based on human interpretation. At least in a friendly match, your opponent should also be able to decide whether it's a foul and a miss or not.

You already have this capability. The opponent is the one who decides if they are going to force their opponent with Opp Re-shoot. If they don't think it should be Foul and a Miss, then they can just press Opp Play or Play.

deraltefritz wrote:The nice thing about foul and a miss is seeing how the player gets closer and closer to the target with each attempt. At least the algorithm should take into account how close the striker got to their target. For an average player, it maybe shouldn't call foul and a miss if they get very close. But in almost any case, it should be a miss if the cueball gets nowhere near to the ball on.

This is too simplistic an approach Foul and a Miss and it will not work well. I can easily come up with situations where this is invalid. I spent a lot of time working on this rule to get a decent implementation of it. It is not perfect but it hold up pretty well over a broad range of play situations.

"Quick match" button for ladders. When you press this button system begins to search for players who also pressed the same button and if they meet all norms, both get notification that match is found and ladder room is set up. Ladders are very well done but players simply don't play them too much. Idea of ladders is to try to reach the top and when you get there you wait for people to challenge you. But actual procedure is that people ask in lobby for ladders and when two players agree they check which one of them is lower to send the challenge. They don't actually care about player's place on ladders, they just want to play and try to climb up by winning the match. "Quick match" button is pretty standard in every game where players play 1vs1 matches with ladders.

Also would be nice if you divide ladders or maybe even rankings in to divisions, for example: Gold, Silver, Bronze (see how League of Legends ladders system works. The most crowded game on internet and it's free to play). If you divide ladders or rankings in to parts, people in lower parts will also try to reach for some goals (for example transition from bronze to silver). And at the end of every month, there should be the tournament with some greater entry fees and prizes where only people in Gold division can sign up and play. Or simply there should be some weekly/monthly prizes and awards for top 5 places on ladders or rankings at the end of the week/month. Right now, staying at top places of any ladders or rankings is not interesting and it does not make you better player than those placed lower, it only means that you probably played much more matches than them.

I know this requires much more players to be involved but that's what ladders are planned for, and who knows maybe this system will make players more interested at staying top on any field.

Wolfpack wrote:"Quick match" button for ladders. When you press this button system begins to search for players who also pressed the same button and if they meet all norms, both get notification that match is found and ladder room is set up. Ladders are very well done but players simply don't play them too much. Idea of ladders is to try to reach the top and when you get there you wait for people to challenge you. But actual procedure is that people ask in lobby for ladders and when two players agree they check which one of them is lower to send the challenge. They don't actually care about player's place on ladders, they just want to play and try to climb up by winning the match. "Quick match" button is pretty standard in every game where players play 1vs1 matches with ladders.

Also would be nice if you divide ladders or maybe even rankings in to divisions, for example: Gold, Silver, Bronze (see how League of Legends ladders system works. The most crowded game on internet and it's free to play). If you divide ladders or rankings in to parts, people in lower parts will also try to reach for some goals (for example transition from bronze to silver). And at the end of every month, there should be the tournament with some greater entry fees and prizes where only people in Gold division can sign up and play. Or simply there should be some weekly/monthly prizes and awards for top 5 places on ladders or rankings at the end of the week/month. Right now, staying at top places of any ladders or rankings is not interesting and it does not make you better player than those placed lower, it only means that you probably played much more matches than them.

I know this requires much more players to be involved but that's what ladders are planned for, and who knows maybe this system will make players more interested at staying top on any field.

Some thing of minor importance: when in a challenge room and while typing something, a rack is over and the "player A has won" pops up, the entered text is gone. That's a bit annoying when you've typed something longer than "gg".

9balldotcom wrote:AndersE do you beleive that you would be good enough to pay your entry fee and have any chance of getting anything back from a World Snooker Championship without any handicapping?

Its clear to me that your confusing handicapping(that means someone getting 20 or 30 points a start each frame or getting say 3 frames in a race to 5)You seem to want to include foul and miss under the handicapping banner and that is not the case.

If you will host world championships in snooker. Will you run it with a system based on handicap (the foul and miss rule)? Or will you make the rules equal for everybody in the starting field, regardless of "rating"?

Or perhaps Im not understanding you?

I'm apologising for the relatively slow reply..

Is "handicapping" in your eyes only if you handle someone a lead in points at the start of a frame? It's just as much handicap having a rule that gives an advantage to one player over another, dependent on their "skill" level. Another examples would be the system used in golf, where players with a higher handicap tee off from a closer distance than the opponent, based on their ranking. Or if you would force a better player to use a cue that is weaker than your opponent's because your opponent's ranking is worse.

I'm not a very good player myself. If the best players participates I would have close to no chance of winning a tournament. But that's not the important factor here. I want, just as you run many pool tournaments, to play in events that are not handicapped. I don't think you have managed to create a handicap rule in pool, hence why the tournaments you don't award frame leads in, aren't handicapped. But since you plan to implement the miss rule your style in all snooker tournaments, then they will all be handicapped. Anyone is free to think what they want about that. To me that is bullshit, at least if you plan to do so in tournaments you consider more bigger and more serious.

Don't just throw at me the nonsense about "you have been watching too much pro snooker". It's not about the lack of a pro tour foul and miss for me personally. It's all about playing on equal terms. I would hate to have the system helping me winning if I'm to face a better player, even more so than if I'm playing a player that has a lower rating than myself.

So what I'm saying, it would be much better if you scrapped this foul and a miss completely if it isn't going to work the same way for both. Just like it was in vp3. And encourage people to report anyone that are just tapping the cue ball without trying, when snookered.

I was going to play in snooker tournaments before this was brought up, but now I won't as long as they are handicapped. Good luck with it. I'll try not to cluster up this thread anymore for now.

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On another note, I do find it very weird at the end of games for challenge rooms, just like everyone else is saying. If you typed anything before the game is restarting, you can't continue that, and as it's restarting instantly without confirmation from players, you will need to shut the game down quick before your opponent takes a breakshot, to avoid "losing" the new match. That means no time to chat at the end, writing gg etc. Think you need to come up with a better system for this. Maybe introduce a timer for 10 seconds that will appear for players to "start" the match. If both hits this button before these 10 seconds have passed, it will start quicker, otherwise the game starts as normal after 10 seconds. This gives enough time to post a message and leave the game.

It would nice to see the possibility to quit and leave without a rating lost when only 2 players in room..---> Adding a new option in the in game menu "both quit", next message is "leave room" or "quit and queuing"The player who will leave, click as first both quit and the other player must approve it.

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I'm a bit unhappy with the options in the status hud (top hud, players hud, minimal hud ect.)Need a Hud without my player picture, low ball, match(games). I only need the balls overview in the top left (completely left) corner.Need more combinations to choose, disable, enable or displace hud, picture ect.

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Chat font more as +4 already suggested(important for user who play with resolutions more than 1920x1080)

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All screens in full screen already suggested(important for user who play with resolutions more than 1920x1080)

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Adding more combinations to play with(Snooker on pool table, pool on snooker table, ect.)

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Please add a option to disable the colorcode chat

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Please add more graphics options for user who have High end systems or powerful gpu'smore texture resolution and more poly count or more new stuff to adjust.

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At vponline.celeris / my profile / the main stats screen has no options to flip the pages Any chance to get the fast overview by using arrows (shows next game)?

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Please add a help hud for english, we have aleady a help pic for changing cue angle (pressing B)Pleeeease.

Andreas Binz wrote:It would nice to see the possibility to quit and leave without a rating lost when only 2 players in room..---> Adding a new option in the in game menu "both quit", next message is "leave room" or "quit and queuing"The player who will leave, click as first both quit and the other player must approve it.

We already have that is some respect, quitting before the break does not change the rating.

Someone mentioned the ability to play snooker on a pool table. I would second that. It was possible in VP3 but I was disappointed that it wasn't possible in vp4 as I liked to play it on a pool table cos Im just not good enough on the snooker table.

Another thing I would like to see changed is the rule in the uk 8ball where the cue ball has to hit a cushion on safety shots or shots where no object ball has been potted. Its a long time since I played pool in a pub but as far as Im aware, that rule has never existed in the uk.

I might be "high standards" sometimes so don't need to reply if you don't think the same.

Website

1. When I didn't login, I can see an "Upcoming Events" column. After I login, it's gone?! I know I can go to CALENDAR, but it's more visual with that column.

2. Tournament history (results) like VP3 website for each player.3. Show winner (and runner-up) like VP3 website for a finished tournament. It's very non-obvious now on the tournament page for a winner.

4. LADDER and PLAYER tag. It's too tortuous to find a ladder page or search a player. You almost have to tell every new player the steps to access the ladder page. In another way, a tag can attract more attendances.5. Let people can enter a specific page number in "Recent Activity" of "My Profile". It's left on but no function now.

6. The first time you click the column name of Stats, it shows a low to high order, but people usually want to see high to low.7. After entering Player Name and Opponent Name in Stats, it comes out only the Player's stats. It would be better if it shows both player's stats, since we are querying a stats of a match.

VP4I suggested once and was told it's on the todo list, to have a "notice" (blue flashing notification) on toolbar when it's your turn, because sometimes people may alt+tab.

Online1. No response sometimes when pressing ctrl+;2. No response when pressing ctrl+R, ctrl+D, ctrl+A when practicing alone.3. Automatically put oneself (and 2nd player) in the game when a match. It's quite bothering to add players every time.

deraltefritz wrote:I don't think on/off/normal are the right options. There should be one that is based on human interpretation. At least in a friendly match, your opponent should also be able to decide whether it's a foul and a miss or not.

You already have this capability. The opponent is the one who decides if they are going to force their opponent with Opp Re-shoot. If they don't think it should be Foul and a Miss, then they can just press Opp Play or Play.

Wrong, it's not what we're trying to say. It still means the game decides if it was foul and miss. What we mean is that your opponent makes that decision, i.e. there is (almost always*) the options "Opp Re-Shoot, Opp Play or Play".I've played a friend the other day, and he didn't hit the ball on, even though we both know he's more than capable. He just misjudged it slightly. Another attempt and he would have hit it, but the game didn't give the option of "Opp Re-Shoot".Please, pretty please, give us, the players, the option of deciding for ourselves if a foul was in fact a foul&miss. It would just be another option in "game->advanced":

Foul&Miss Referee:AI(default) - as it is nowOpponent - your opponent decides. [ and maybe: Both players - both click on either "Foul" or "Foul&miss", if both agree on the latter, the three options appear to the player, if not, only "Opp Play" and "Play" appear.]

Of course these two new options can both be abused. The "Opponent" version allows someone to just always call a miss, even though the other player just isn't capable of hitting the ball on, thereby gaining a lot of points. With the "Both players" version, the one that made the foul can always disagree on a miss. But that's not the point, the point is that when two friends play (and trust) each other, and know their skills, they will be able to judge foul&miss much better than any algorithm.

* Unless of course there is no way, except jumping, so reach a ball on.