Palestine....

polishshooter
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(4/10/02 9:52:14 am)
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I'm not sure we shouldn't threaten Arafat and the Palestinians that if the bombings do not stop NOW, we will (1) drop our recognition of Arafat as the legitimate leader of the Palestinian people (2) List Arafat as a "terrorist" and (3) give the Israelis the green light to take him out, or maybe it would be better....

...if we did.

The Road to Peace is blocked by a lot of big butts....

I don't care whether it's Arafat, a PLO apologist in the Mid East, on TV, or a demonstrator on a college campus in Berkely, you hear them ALL say...."We absolutely condemn the suicide bombings, BUT....." (fill in the blank...about the Israeli "Occupation," Israeli "atrocities..." {THAT gets my goat...} the Palestinians have no other weapons...etc, etc.)

We need them to say, in ARABIC..."We absolutely condemn the suicide bombings PERIOD." (And then give the list of things they are doing IMMEDIATELY to stop them.....including executions...not just arrests)

Rabin had it right...."There is no need to "make peace" with friends. Arafat is Israel's ENEMY."

If ANYBODY thinks the PLO and Arafat want ANYTHING but the complete destruction of Israel, they are a rube....

And yeah, I know all about the terrorism used by the Zionists that led to the establishment of the latest state of Israel...BUT, whether or not you buy or even accept the Balfour Declaration and what resulted, it STILL is recognized in international law, which IS all we have.

MANY countries exist today as independent, after "terrorism" against their imperialistic masters, ESPECIALLY the British Empire...The USA is the BEST example, but you can include India, Malaysia, etc...

The DIFFERENCE is none of THOSE ever wanted to eliminate Britain as a NATION.
"Don't hear him call you an ---hole, hear WHY he's calling you an ---hole." -------- From "A Season on the Brink"

warpig883
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(4/10/02 10:11:37 am)
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Can anyone tell me why in the world we even support Arafat as the leader of the Palestinians? The man is a terrorist and a slimeball. I think Israel should wipe him out.

Why in the heck aren't we spporting Israel

cointoss 2
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(4/10/02 10:49:31 am)
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I my opinion, just a way to placate all the other Arab countrys, which in the end boils down to us having cheap gas.
cointoss2

polishshooter
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(4/10/02 11:34:28 am)
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Well, it's obvious we have to tread lightly to get the Arab states to at least allow us overflight permission if we want to hit Iraq...but then again dumping on Israel, who has been one of our closest allies for the last 50 years or so, REALLY would help our image in the world with all our "new" allies....

But I think this whole thing needs to be tied together...we could affect those same Arab states MORE by drilling in ANWAR, or heck, even just announcing we lifted the rules on EXPLORATION, and I think overnight the moderate OPEC nations would quickly move Arafat and the PLO to page 2...

At WHAT point do we smarten up and pass a REAL energy plan, one that will work with the realities of our economy TODAY, not one that mandates 35mpg from Dump Trucks, and 50% more freaking windmills in 15 years?

And at what point does GW open ANWAR by Executive Order, call it a National Emergency, and bypass Little Tommie Daschle and Dickless Gephart altogether?

Take a page out of Slick Willie's book....
"Don't hear him call you an ---hole, hear WHY he's calling you an ---hole." -------- From "A Season on the Brink"

LIKTOSHOOT
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(4/10/02 11:52:08 am)
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ANWAR, is mearly a pimple in the big world of oil. The Gulf of Mexico has been shown to have reserves more than ten fold over the middle east. Deepwater drilling. Two hundred miles off the Texas coast. We only get about one fifth of our oil from the Middle East.......so they really can`t hold our feet to the fire....plus, since we are the major consumer of that product; they will no longer have that income and most of the richness of the area is from dollars from the USA. When you have a ONE THING economy, you don`t carry much weight. They`ll go bust long before we do, if they cut us off. My thought`s are Bush is placating to the Arabs for ONE reason, we are going into Iraq, trust me on that.....Sadam has to go! Once Iraq has the capability (full) for chemical/bio or Nuke technology.....they will use it......they have done so in the past on their own people. This is a big picture and I would hope we are only seeing the preamble. LTS
T.F.F.

Today the Hezbollah fired Katyushas over the border into Northern Israel, from the land Israel gave back under the UN resolution the LAST time somebody sold them a bill of goods over "Land for Peace." Syria is backing the Hezbollah directly, and has 20-30000 troops in that area of Lebanon...if they target Haifa, Israel WILL go back into Lebanon, WILL take on Syria, and may not stop 10 miles from Damascus like they did in the 80s....

...and Syria has chemical warheads for tactical missiles, they probably will use them...

...and once that happens, Israel could go nuclear in a heartbeat....

We ARE going to be in this one, one way or the other, I just hope we do the right thing....on the right side. Iraq will be phase TWO, but I feel we will be involved militarily in this Israeli/PLO/Syrian/Hezbollah/Iran fight first....I hope I'm wrong.

And LTS, I believe this already IS the war with Iraq....remember last time Saddam tried to break the coalition by trying to bring Israel in with the Scuds...

I really think he is behind ALL this crap going on in Palestine, he's got Israel involved already....it will be AWFULLY difficult for W to successfully divorce any action against him from Israel, like his Dad did....

And it doesn't feel good either, we already got demonstrations on college campuses here, SOMEBODY is trying to play us like a fiddle, Vietnam II, and Arafat isn't smart enough to do it alone....
"Don't hear him call you an ---hole, hear WHY he's calling you an ---hole." -------- From "A Season on the Brink"

cointoss 2
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(4/10/02 4:57:45 pm)
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Polish you and LTS both make good points, there is going to be a high steaks war that is going to pull more countries in to support the Arabs besides Iran and Iraq and I am thinking N. Korea and China as principles too. That is the two wild cards that I feel should offer the most thought.
cointoss2

warpig883
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(4/10/02 5:10:11 pm)
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Strange how Russia does not even get mentioned. in the not to distant past they would have been a MAJOR player. They might be now.

Where do the Russians get their oil? I would think they have wells in Siberia or some other place.

I hope Israel kicks butt, the US has no business fighting a war on terrorism and then telling another nation they are not allowed to do the same.

17th FA Bn
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(4/10/02 7:22:58 pm)
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Cointoss2, why do you think China and Commie Korea would get "directly" involved in that mess? I agree they would both sell any and all weapons to the Arabs for cold hard cash, or weapons for oil. But what is their national interest in the area other than being a major pain the a@$ to the U.S.?

Warpig883, Russia is now a major exporter of oil. They have major oil reserves. Oil is their main source of hard foreign currency. Instability in the middle east is in Russia's interest. It drives up the world wide price of oil and increases demand for weapons, their other major export.

Polish I think one of the Reagan administrations biggest mistakes was not letting the Israelis kick the Syrians out of Lebanon in the 80's. They could have spilt the country in two, let the Christians have the part closest to Israel, and the Moslems could have the other half. This would have given the Israelis one more buffer zone.

Speaking of Lebanon, does any one know why Lebanon declared war on Israel in 1948 in the 1st Israeli Arab war? At the time Lebanon was much more heavily Christian, than it is today.

polishshooter
*TFF Senior Staff*
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(4/10/02 10:35:10 pm)
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I guess I'm not as versed on early modern Israel as I should be, but I didn't know that Lebanon did declare war on Israel in '48....Hmmm.

I know SYRIA did, and they would have had to traverse Lebanon, maybe they had no choice in the matter, especially with the Syrian tanks rolling...

Now in '67, they didn't, right? I mean, first the Israelis whacked the Egyptians, then whirled and hit the Jordanians, then took the Golan Heights which stopped Syria from even getting in the war, if I remember right, do I have it right?

Yeah, the Caspian Sea oil fields are just coming on line, Russia will be if not already is the worlds largest producer and exporter of oil...

Which is ONE of the reasons they helped in Afghanistan, they REALLY want a pipeline across there to get the oil out quickly...

I still think Russia has a heckuva lot more to gain from helping us than not...not only the oil money they need badly, but this whole "terrorist" thing has them by the butt, too, in Chechnya and Georgia especially...if there WAS a war they just might throw their lot with us, just for the oil sales and the chance to go back into Chechnya once and for all and clean it out with the world busy elsewhere...and I DID see it listed as a place with lots of Al Queda presence on the state department or whatever's list a few months ago...

I mean HECK, Russian Ilyushin transports flew our SF and 10th Mountain troops into the old bases in Turkmenistan and Uzbekistan...I can't see them turning on us now...
"Don't hear him call you an ---hole, hear WHY he's calling you an ---hole." -------- From "A Season on the Brink"

17th FA Bn
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(4/11/02 7:36:47 pm)
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Polish I read a thumbnail sketch of the Israeli Arab wars today. It said that Lebanon declared war in 1948, because they were part of the Arab League, but did not have much active participation. In 1967 Lebanon gave "verbal support" to the Arab forces, but did not declare war or participate.

Israel and Syria have a common border (Golan Heights region) so Syria would have no need to pass through Lebanon.

In the early 80's Israel and Lebanon were set to have a peace treaty. They had been technically at war since 1948, that war only had a truce, and no formal peace treaty. That agreement fell apart, so even today Israel and Lebanon are technically at war. The same situation still exists with the other Arab countries that Israel has had wars with other than Egypt.

Edited by: 17th FA Bn at: 4/11/02 8:54:36 pm

polishshooter
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(4/12/02 12:56:43 pm)
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Yeah. 17th, confession time...after I posted that I went to the globe and looked at the border again, the Golan Heights WERE part of Syria, so they had to have the border...and I shoulda KNOWN that...

What threw me was I remembered when the Israelis went into Lebanon in 83 and kept on going after Beirut towards Damascus...and got within like 10 miles until "International Pressure" (US) stopped them....I forgot it was a "left hook" not head on....

"Don't hear him call you an ---hole, hear WHY he's calling you an ---hole." -------- From "A Season on the Brink"

the real fredneck
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(4/14/02 1:15:06 pm)
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does anyone know why Israel has always refused to allow Palenestians to become citizens? their society and government is based on seperate and unequal rights, that didn't work in this country so and unlike the civil rights issue here the Palenestians don't have the power of the ballot (even the "good" Palenestians) so that pretty well leaves the power of the bullet

polishshooter
*TFF Senior Staff*
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(4/14/02 9:49:33 pm)
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Uh, Fred, I may be all wet but I DO know that not all members of the Knesset are Jews, and I THOUGHT, could be wrong, that Palestinians in Israel proper DO get full rights of citizenship....in fact, I heard the Mayor of Jerusalem just this week saying something about it, something about the "'Good' Palestinian citizens of Israel" or something...and I even thought there were some who are in the IDF...

I could be wrong, I'm not sure...

MY problem is the West Bank...it WAS part of Jordan before the '67 war...why isn't JORDAN involved in the talks? Why is that where the "Palestinan Homeland" is assumed it will be, why son't they give it back to JORDAN and let them do with it as they wish...and there are REALLY no hard and fast borders of the "new" Palestine...so why isn't there ANY pressure on JORDAN to make them a home??? If all the Palestinians want is a "Homeland", really what difference does it make if it was on the EAST bank, if the question is ONLY Palestinian soveriegnty?

THAT makes it pretty plain to me that the "Homeland" old Yassir wants, with the tacit approval of MOST Arabs, includes ALL of Israel......

"Don't hear him call you an ---hole, hear WHY he's calling you an ---hole." -------- From "A Season on the Brink"

17th FA Bn
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(4/15/02 7:39:37 pm)
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Hey Fredneck, did the U.S. give voting rights in our elections to any country we occupied? (such as Mexico, Cuba, the Philippines, Germany or Japan) Israel has floated the idea of annexing occupied territories, and the international community has had a fit. The west bank is considered to be occupied territory, and the Palestinians foreigners.