Upon advice from an anonymous friend, I took a break from this forum to get my thoughts together and try to understand who I am. And during that time, I had a revelation that most of you will disapprove of. I am godless. I am tired of adhering to something I do not understand and worshipping a Divine god whom I do not like. So go ahead, Achronos, laugh, you were correct in predicting my path to godlessness.

I would not say that I am necessarily an atheist as in I do not believe in God, but that I do believe in Him but hate him with a burning passion. Perhaps I am even a Luciferanian. When I really look at it, why is the Devil do bad? He is the lightbearer who finally had the nerve to step up to God--the Divine tyrant--and teach us to do the same. God is omnipotent yet He lets us suffer miserably. Lucifer is not omnipotent and therefore cannot stop our suffering, but at least to the very best of his ability he tries to urge us to liberate ourselves from God. He represents true freedom and tolerance.

I hate God. He is nothing but a deadbeat father yet I am supposed to adhere to a religion all about Him. My first thoughts are honestly **** Him. Where was He when I was a scared little kid, where was He when my parents where abusing me or when my mom miscarried or when my father relapsed and I was all alone? Hiding behind His lazy 'free will' cop-out or having His clergy tell us that the world has not been 'fully redeemed' yet and is still 'fallen'? Well why don't the lazy **** take responsibility for the state of His creation and do something to fix it?

The excuse I always hear is the Incarnation. But honestly, what difference does it make? People still suffer, I still had it miserably, we still all die in the end. Likewise, what is it with worshipping God for becoming man and dying? It was not a gift; He owed it to us since we are His fault anyway. Why worship Him for taking responsibility? Hell, I wish I was the one who could have crucified Him--it would be good payback for all the crap He let me go through.

Going even further, this deadbeat father even has the nerve to judge us when He was never there and is the one who created us/allowed us to be born into circumstances with urges and factors that make us sin. And His bat**** crazy adherents do the same. I can't fornicate even though He allowed be to be born with horny animalistic passions, I cannot steal even though He lets people live in poverty and I cannot murder even though He allows me to be born with a temper. There is no such thing as freewill. Period. God is a monster who allows us to be born screwed up and then condemns us for the way we are. It is all His fault.

And look at what this does to His adherents. Parents do all sorts of crazy **** to their kids because of religion--ie circumcise them, Baptise them, fill their heads with silly superstitions and worries, tell them they are worthless compared to this transcendent guy in the sky and teach them to be ashamed of their bodies and pubescent passions. As if that were not enough, they teach them intolerance toward homosexuals and certain types of people and ultimately divide society all because of religion. I hate religion.

Religion says that my mom is a whore for having me outside of marriage because of some dumb 'sacramental' ****. It says that the horribly dysfunctional heterosexual couple is okay yet the successful homosexual relationship of 30 years that my neighbor has is evil in the eyes of God. It tells me to condemn my passions and judge others, adhering to a strict and silly ethical system.

Quite frankly, I am becoming much more postmodern and relativistic in my ethics. I love all kinds of people (except old religious people and conservatives). I am not going to condemn fornication because I came from it nor am I going to judge homosexuality. Who am I to say whether fornicators or homosexuals love each other or not? I am not going to tell people how to live their lives or how to have sex. I am going to love everyone and urge everyone to indulge in their passions.

Satan is really not a bad guy. He advocates total tolerance for everyone and true freedom to do whatever we want and become the best we can be. God just holds me back, I feel like He is an obstacle in my intellectual life and always tries to bind me down to some outdated, intolerant and silly ethical system. Religion ruins everything. I hate it. I hate how old people and Southerners try to bring it into everything. It is jus another stupid and illogical conservative idealogy that senile old people and weak-minded folks adhere to just because it is old.

Ever since childhood I always had people bossing me around and telling me what I can and cannot do, telling me to be grateful and humble. But what is so great about humbleness and humility? These terms are just polite ways of saying to be a weak pushover. I deserve more and for once I am acknowledging it. God owes me. The world owes me. And instead of submitting I am finally going to spoil myself and indulge in all of my passions--as the good Lucifer would advocate. I want money and women. I openly admit it. No need in being ashamed of my passions anymore, I no longer have that divine tyrant binding me down.

God only leads to suffering but indulging in your passions brings happiness. Screw all that crap about money can't buy happiness. Because poverty is no picnic either. Money can make me happy and it is all that I want and have wanted for quite a while now. Since I never had it as a child I think it is about time I spoiled myself to some money and indulgence. I for once feel liberated and free. And I deserve the pleasure to compensate for all the misery God allowed me to endure.

I am tired of being bound by God and His outdated ethics and having to be ashamed of myself and suppress all my passions, ambitions, intellect and potential. For once I can really be a that I can be. I am more intelligent than 90% of people my age and many people older than me, so why adhere to illogical beliefs and hang around God's flock which is generally full of weak minded people and senile old folks? Why suppress my passions any longer? God allowed me to have them.

Satan tells me to pursue my ambitions and be all that I can truly be. He is tolerant towards everyone and urges us to reach our true potential. Do you realize how liberating this is compared to Christianity? Hell, Christianity even makes it harder for me to do good because it preaches intolerance. Without Christianity I can truly accept someone no matter what they may be like or what lifestyle they may live whereas in Christisnity I have to condemn them.

Consider this my religious resignation. I no longer want anything to do with God. I hate Him. And I won't submit to a deadbeat father. I'll do whatever makes me happy and I no longer give a rat's **** about what He thinks. Unless He stops all the suffering in the world and becomes accepting/tolerant of all people, I will have nothing to do with Him.

I have failed you all. I am no longer this great Orthodox kid with all this religious saintly potential that many of you think I have. I am just broken and think that I will find happiness in the dark side. An ex-Orthodox Anakin Skywalker. I imagine I will keep this a secret and still attend my Church, just so that my parents do not discover my godlessness and try to convert me back to Protestantism.

Wish me luck, but don't waste your time and pray. There is no old for me to return back to God's chains.

You are free to rant and rail against God on this forum, (though maybe not on the Faith Issues board, but I'll let this section's moderator decide that). What you are not free to do is lace your rant with obscenities and profanities as you have so done. Therefore, you are receiving this warning to last for the next 40 days. During this time, please find more appropriate ways to express your rage against God on this forum. If you think this action wrong, please appeal it to me via private message.

-PeterTheAleut

This thread was moved to the Religious Topics since you have declared you are not Christian any longer - Michał Kalina.

« Last Edit: September 18, 2012, 03:14:46 AM by Michał Kalina »

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Until I see the resurrection of the dead and the life of the world to come, I will not believe.

I do not judge you, nor do your words make me angry. I cannot help but to believe that those who so honestly and boldly express their displeasure with God are actually quite near to Him. In spite of your advice that I not pray for you, I will pray my unworthy prayers nonetheless.

"Lord have mercy."

Selam

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"God is a consuming fire. And His fire is love."+ Gebre Menfes Kidus +

God only leads to suffering but indulging in your passions brings happiness.

Indulgence in passions only brings temporary happiness. It will wear off after a while, the things that bring you happiness will become boring, even your senses will become dulled. You'll seek new things but they'll become boring too. Nothing in this world can give you true happiness, unconditional happiness that isn't based on how your day is going or if you are indulging your self. If you look for it in this world eventually you'll loose yourself, you won't even know who or what you are anymore.

When you put your passions in control you think you are taking over, that you are taking the reins of your life to make it whatever you want it to be. But you're actually giving control over to something else and loosing control.

I do not judge you, nor do your words make me angry. I cannot help but to believe that those who so honestly and boldly express their displeasure with God are actually quite near to Him. In spite of your advice that I not pray for you, I will pray my unworthy prayers nonetheless.

"Lord have mercy."

Selam

I'm with Gebre on this one. I cannot think of any better way to put it.

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"The whole problem with the world is that fools and fanatics are always so certain of themselves, and wiser people so full of doubts." --Bertrand Russell

James, what you have discovered is called maltheism(probably mixed with a portion of satanism). Maltheists are not atheists, since they acknowledge the existense of God However, they do, for various resons, feel a burning hatred against Him and wish to oppose Him.

I can't give you much advice, but I will say this. Happiness and freedom is defined very differently from person to person. It can be hard to tell which definition is real. I have chosen to accept a faith which tells me to try and see the good in all things. There is a saying: "Before one can experience 10000 joys, one must go through 10000 sorrows.

Thus, some of the greatest human beings have gone through much suffering to achieve great happiness. I believe that this applies to us all.

May the Lord, through the prayers of the holy saint Silouan the Athonite, have mercy on you and help you.

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Do not be cast down over the struggle - the Lord loves a brave warrior. The Lord loves the soul that is valiant.

I do not judge you, nor do your words make me angry. I cannot help but to believe that those who so honestly and boldly express their displeasure with God are actually quite near to Him. In spite of your advice that I not pray for you, I will pray my unworthy prayers nonetheless.

"Lord have mercy."

Selam

I'm with Gebre on this one. I cannot think of any better way to put it.

And I.

To be honest, James sounds like any number of teenagers - I've been there myself. God willing, when he calms down, grows up (I know you probably already think you are grown James and this is not meant to insult you but I can't think of a better way of putting it) and reappraises his life, he'll come back to the Church.

Know, James, that if and when you are through this, the Church and God will be there to welcome you back with open arms.

James

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We owe greater gratitude to those who humble us, wrong us, and douse us with venom, than to those who nurse us with honour and sweet words, or feed us with tasty food and confections, for bile is the best medicine for our soul. - Elder Paisios of Mount Athos

You are still a young man. Chances are you will go through many such revelatory eras in your life, full of their own bold, declarative statements which you will eventually think better than to hash out publicly as you've done here. I myself lived if not as an atheist, exactly, then certainly as an agnostic for about a decade after my mother passed away when I was a few years younger than you are now. I didn't understand -- well, more couldn't understand -- how a supposedly loving God could take a mother from her two not yet grown children, and what's more one who loved Him as much as my mother did. Of course, now the answer seems almost obvious (the lovers of God desire Him more than life, and He, loving them as He does, grants their wishes), but I wouldn't really get it for many years.

This isn't my way of saying "You'll grow out of it" or "You're young and dumb" or anything like that, by the way. Ours is a free faith, and you are not required to come back. I just hope that you have all the time in the world to learn the lessons you can only learn with time. I mean, not to harp on the point, but your faith status still says "just baptized", so it's not crazy to wonder if there's something to be said in waiting until you are a little less impulsive before deciding what you believe about God.

As to the passions and all that, Lord have mercy, because there but by the grace of God we would all be, and also thank God that He lets His sun shine upon us all, regardless of where we are. This might be a weird note to end on, but as 17th century Yemenite Rabbi Shalom Shabazi put it, even if the gates of the wealthy are closed, the gates of heaven will never be closed. Something to think about in this life, at least.

James, I'm going to give you a real life reason why giving into your passions and ignoring Gods wisdom is a bad idea. I'll withhold names and keep it short. Years ago I knew a Young lady, smart and beautiful with all the world in front of her. Decided fornication wasn't a bad thing. She died of AIDS at 16. She most likely would have lived a long life and become a grandmother, but she thought as you do now and felt she was smarter than God. Some people blamed God, but he tried to protect her and she ignored him. I still wonder sometimes what she would be doing today. None of us are as smart as we wish we were. Just be cautious in your new found "freedom" as it can quickly become your own personal prison.

In trying to figure out why, I am torn between adolescence and the Evil One as the culprit. May be both. In any case, I do not think that this JamersR is the last word because I remember another JamesR before and he will come back in due course. In the meantime, I pray that the following petitions reawaken in JamesR's soul and effect his return:

"An angel of peace, a faithful guide, a guardian of our souls andbodies, let us ask of the Lord.

Pardon and forgiveness of our sins and transgressions, let us ask ofthe Lord.

All things good and profitable for our souls and peace for the world,let us ask of the Lord.

That we may complete the remaining time of our life in peace andrepentance, let us ask of the Lord.

A Christian ending to our life, painless, blameless, peaceful and agood defense before the fearful judgment seat of Christ, let us ask."

Grant this O Lord and have mercy on your servant James, receive him back as the father received his prodigal son and forgive him as You forgave the good thief.

Please please please fight these thoughts, no matter how hard it is to resist them no matter how much they feel to be all true fight them. And though you may perceive that God does not love your or care or He's not there. Even though I'm a complete stranger at least know that I and the rest of the people here do. My prayer for you is that you comeback and read these posts.

That makes two youngsters who have stumbled off the path this month, and are now lost in the wilderness - James and Trevor.

Both were so zealous, and now are so.....

Let us raise our voices to God and ask for His mercy upon them, that they may see the error of their ways and return to the One Holy and Apostolic Church.

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Conquer evil men by your gentle kindness, and make zealous men wonder at your goodness. Put the lover of legality to shame by your compassion. With the afflicted be afflicted in mind. Love all men, but keep distant from all men.—St. Isaac of Syria

James, if you ever need any help or wish to talk to someone you are free to message me, even if it is not religion-based discussion. I won't judge for profanity either (I guarentee I have a worse mouth in real life than anyone here).

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"Let the mouth also fast from disgraceful speeches and railings. For what does it profit if we abstain from fish and fowl and yet bite and devour our brothers and sisters? The evil speaker eats the flesh of his brother and bites the body of his neighbor. "— St. John Chrysostom

The best answer can give you someone who went through all the abysses of human existence, from total atheism, indivudalism to all the other religions like TM meditations, Islam, Buddhism, Hinduism, Shamanism, then to Christianity and at the end to Orthodoxy. And this man is called: Klaus Kenneth

To the question "Why not just accept your life? Why even bring religion into it? Why not just accept human nature and say ‘This is life’?" Klaus answered:

“Because you feel that is not life,” he replies. “It’s a wrong life. That is what society calls life. But inside my heart, when I went to bed after my stories with alcohol, sex and whatever – I felt alone. And that is not life.”

That makes two youngsters who have stumbled off the path this month, and are now lost in the wilderness - James and Trevor.

I don't think they're lost in the wilderness, but have decided to be open and honest about what they truly believe rather than repressing things behind a wall of zeal. The holy men and women of the Bible are not presented to us as flawless examples of unquestioning faith and obedience, but of brutally honest people who struggled with fear, doubt, who questioned God and got angry with Him at times. Salvation is a relationship with Christ, a relationship of love. Such a relationship cannot be established without honesty. God does not require servitude or bondage. Legalistic submission to a tyrannical god of legalism will not bring salvation, and if that's what James is now reacting against, this is not a loss, but - if he choses - a new beginning and a chance to encounter the true God in whom he can find peace rather than oppression.

On a more general point, not related to James, I think clergy should be more careful about admitting young people in their formative years who come to the Church alone, without the support of friends or family, especially if they're struggling with emotional or psychological problems. People tend to think of the catechumenate too much in terms of education. The catechumenate should not just be a period of instruction, but a time when a person can enter into the spiritual life of the Church at their own pace rather than being thrown in at the deep end before they're emotionally and spiritually ready for it.

But you're also being a self-aggrandizing attention whore, but that's what a teenage boy is when he has something like the internet at his disposal. Knock it off and grow up.

Oh, and Carl, we had little to do with this. Many of us saw this coming from a mile away and he would've done this no matter who he had contact with. The only person who should shoulder any blame other than James himself is his priest who baptised this immature child without much of a support network, but I'm sure he already knows that.

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"Hearing a nun's confession is like being stoned to death with popcorn." --Abp. Fulton Sheen

I think every believer has grappled with the problem of evil at some point in his or her life. C.S. Lewis' The Problem of Pain offers excellent intellectual answers to these questions. However, those intellectual answers do little to help with the emotional trauma of real life suffering. Friendship and love are the best things that I suppose we can offer people like James.

James, I understand your frustration. I grappled with these very things as a teenager and as a young adult. Just know that as you grow, you may gain a different perspective on the matter. Don't close yourself off to that possibility. Keep an open mind.

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"For, by its immensity, the divine substance surpasses every form that our intellect reaches. Thus we are unable to apprehend it by knowing what it is. Yet we are able to have some knowledge of it by knowing what it is not." - St. Thomas Aquinas, Summa contra gentiles, I, 14.

I had lunch on Sunday with three young men - mid 20s to early 30s - a pair of brothers who had been born into a very nominal Greek Orthodox family, the third being a friend of theirs since high school and from an even less than nominal Protestant family. The three of them in their late teens were not practising any religion whatsoever and were involved in a wide range of worldly endeavours. Somewhere along the way, they did begin a quest for spiritual truth. They wandered about in all sorts of directions - a bit of Hinduism, Messianic Judaism, Mormonism, JW, etc. - and eventually found their way back to Orthodoxy and recognized there the truth (or should I say Truth?) they were looking for. I'm not clear as to how recent that was, but I don't think it could have been more than two, possibly three, years. God willing, the friend will be baptized in our church this coming Saturday. Glory to God!

My point is that if James and Trevor truly desire to find the truth, I expect that in time, they will return to Orthodoxy when they are more mature and ready to submit to all that is necessary for spiritual growth. Yes, we should worry a bit about the wandering sheep, but we on this forum can do little about bringing them back except prayer. The more immediate responsibility lies with the priest and parish who accepted that responsibility by welcoming and receiving them.

Perhaps this is a wake-up call for us to take a look at our own parishes to see who's missing.

Conquer evil men by your gentle kindness, and make zealous men wonder at your goodness. Put the lover of legality to shame by your compassion. With the afflicted be afflicted in mind. Love all men, but keep distant from all men.—St. Isaac of Syria

But you're also being a self-aggrandizing attention whore, but that's what a teenage boy is when he has something like the internet at his disposal. Knock it off and grow up.

Oh, and Carl, we had little to do with this. Many of us saw this coming from a mile away and he would've done this no matter who he had contact with. The only person who should shoulder any blame other than James himself is his priest who baptised this immature child without much of a support network, but I'm sure he already knows that.

This doesn't help at all. All posts like this do is fuel the fire.

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"Let the mouth also fast from disgraceful speeches and railings. For what does it profit if we abstain from fish and fowl and yet bite and devour our brothers and sisters? The evil speaker eats the flesh of his brother and bites the body of his neighbor. "— St. John Chrysostom

But you're also being a self-aggrandizing attention whore, but that's what a teenage boy is when he has something like the internet at his disposal. Knock it off and grow up.

Oh, and Carl, we had little to do with this. Many of us saw this coming from a mile away and he would've done this no matter who he had contact with. The only person who should shoulder any blame other than James himself is his priest who baptised this immature child without much of a support network, but I'm sure he already knows that.

This doesn't help at all. All posts like this do is fuel the fire.

And all the coddling has done what?

Tough love situation, folks.

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"Hearing a nun's confession is like being stoned to death with popcorn." --Abp. Fulton Sheen

I just dont understand how someone can say they are atheists and then say they hate God. Sounds to me like a case of sour grapes.

I agree with Schultz. I hope James comes out of his funk, but I wont coddle him. I think part of his problem might be (from observation on here only) that he tends to fly by the seat of his pants, letting his emotions guide him where ever they flow.

He needs to calm down and think things through.

PP

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"I confidently affirm that whoever calls himself Universal Bishop is the precursor of Antichrist"Gregory the Great

"Never, never, never let anyone tell you that, in order to be Orthodox, you must also be eastern." St. John Maximovitch, The Wonderworker

But you're also being a self-aggrandizing attention whore, but that's what a teenage boy is when he has something like the internet at his disposal. Knock it off and grow up.

Oh, and Carl, we had little to do with this. Many of us saw this coming from a mile away and he would've done this no matter who he had contact with. The only person who should shoulder any blame other than James himself is his priest who baptised this immature child without much of a support network, but I'm sure he already knows that.

This doesn't help at all. All posts like this do is fuel the fire.

And all the coddling has done what?

Tough love situation, folks.

Precisely.

First he was on his way to becoming a Bishop, then he hated Protestants and this led to him wanting to marry an Orthodox, Catholic or Atheist girl but not a Protestant because at least the atheist would be good in bed, then he became horny, then he got mad that God "made" us horny but wouldn't let us fornicate, then he turned into a Communist, now he's a horny malatheist communard.

The best thing we all can do is stop giving him the attention and let him think things through.

Thus I propose we derail the attention-thread.

Hey Marc, I hear Isa was saying that there are maps that prove that the paleo diet is bogus.

Why not read the Stoics if you want to read non-Christian answers on your objections? Seneca, for example. Pick up a few copies of his works. I advice De Providentia. The Stoics answered your objections pretty well (although perhaps a little different than the holy fathers).

« Last Edit: September 18, 2012, 02:50:48 PM by Cyrillic »

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That is the land of lost content, I see it shining plain, The happy highways where I went And cannot come again.-A.E. Housman