/ Alpine ice climbing/mountaineering with no ski approach - tips?

We are mooting climbing in the Alps, either cascade ice or couloir ice, in January. Unfortunately, not everyone in the team skis and nobody wants to snowshoe, particularly.

Can anyone recommend any venues for ice climbing or, if possible, full-on mountaineering where neither a ski approach nor snowshoes are required - or is this asking the impossible? I suspect it's asking the impossible. There's a reason everyone goes in June-October...

Any leftfield tips for reliable ice climbing destinations with a lot to do at WI4, in the Alps or anywhere in Europe, also greatly appreciated. We're already on the ball with Rjukan, Setesdal, Ecrins/Portes du Soleil/Valais destinations, I'm thinking more random places you don't normally hear about like Bohinj in Slovenia, etc...

In reply to jhw: How do you like post holing? Went to Julian Alps last winter and actually it wasn't too bad for ice falls in the valleys, tops were quite hard work though, sinking thigh deep into snow covered trees

In reply to jhw: well I doubt you will be able to do much mountaineering without snowshoes, you have already mentioned lots of the cascade areas (though almost all Alpine areas have some in what are normally the lower sub-alpine bits.

I hear the Tatras are very well spoken of for ice-climbing, that didn't seem to be in your list. Probably not too snowy either.

In reply to jhw: There are routes in the Chamonix area you can do without skis. Anything in the Argentiere glacier basin, or on Mt Blanc de Tacul, or the Chamonix aiguilles. Tons to go at. But snowshoes do make life easier, and these days, are light and easy to carry. Cogne is good for water ice. Again, snowshoes would help, though depending on the conditions, maybe not essential. You can rent snowshoes cheaply.

In reply to jhw: I think water ice without lots of snow is not generally the norm. Of course it can happen, but for obvious reasons isn't the norm. From ice.solo's pictures and others that I've seen the venues in Western (?) China seemed VERY un-snowy but lots of ice. Pictures suggest that some of the US dessert areas have minimal snowpack and great looking ice routes - but they could be horribly remote? That's just going on pics/videos I've seen.

Snowshoeing can still be a bit crappy and still very hard work BUT it's very straightforward. If it's snowshoes or no climbing, I know which I'd pick!

In reply If you are looking to go ice climbing in Slovenia I would recomend Kranjska gora region. You don´t need skis nor snowshoes for approaches but you will need a car. All major climbing spots are in radius of 15 km around Kr. Gora( Tamar walley, Prisank area,Krnica walley, Bele vode ).

> (In reply to jhw) There are routes in the Chamonix area you can do without skis. Anything in the Argentiere glacier basin, or on Mt Blanc de Tacul, or the Chamonix aiguilles. Tons to go at. But snowshoes do make life easier, and these days, are light and easy to carry. Cogne is good for water ice. Again, snowshoes would help, though depending on the conditions, maybe not essential. You can rent snowshoes cheaply.

I'd argue that, unless you're doing something really hard that's going to take a really long time, under normal winter conditions, as opposed to a really lean year, anything in the Argentierre basin would probably take 2.5-3 times as long round trip without skis or snowshoes and still considerably longer than it actually should do using snowshoes for access instead of skis. The Aiguilles wouldn't be much different either. That is of course if the OP doesn't like postholling in fresh snow.

I don't think the full-on mountaineering option is really going to work without skis/snowshoes in January in the main Alps massif. You could get lucky with low snowfall, but January is prime cascade climbing season, so better to maximise chances with planning for that activity.

For cascades with a mountaineering feel you could do a lot worse than head for Briancon and do some of the longer routes in Friessinieres and (if not too much recent snow) longer gullies like those of Fantomas and the ones on the Tete-de- St- Margerite.

At Cogne, Cold Couloir followed to the top (and not rapping off) felt like a big, wild alpine day.

Also at the WI4-ish grade you could have a good trip to Val Masino in Bregalia - covering some of the longer routes such as Durango and Val Romilla. With firm snow conditions there's potential to take some beautiful, longer alpine walks to approach remoter climbs and maybe stay overnight in some of the bothies (baite)?

> For cascades with a mountaineering feel you could do a lot worse than head for Briancon and do some of the longer routes in Friessinieres and (if not too much recent snow) longer gullies like those of Fantomas and the ones on the Tete-de- St- Margerite.

Wouldn't the long approach to the Tete-de-St-Margerite be likely to need snow shoes in January?

In reply to jhw: Higher the altitude, greater is the possibility of encountering some crevasses on the approaches or walk offs and that happens on flat surfaces also. Than, in my mind, that is a whole new ball game. So choose wisely, accordingly to skills of everyone in your group.

In reply to jonnie3430: but the OP is not talking about bimbling down a piste, they are asking about accessing and returning from alpine routes. When you've learned to ski try putting a 20Kg sac on your back and snow ploughing down waist deep powder, knee deep collapsing wind blown crud or cast iron sastrugae. Try it on a glacier for more fun

> ... try putting a 20Kg sac on your back and snow ploughing down waist deep powder, knee deep collapsing wind blown crud or cast iron sastrugae. Try it on a glacier for more fun

Or try it in a steeply-wooded hillside, where turns need to be got in precisely to avoid smashing into trees, where powder may alternate with ice.

In fact as I pointed out, even bimbling down a piste with a full climbing sack is not so easy. I have seen people ski down from routes and do it impressively, but not many can, and you need to be a pretty good piste or touring skier to even consider it. The idea that snowplowing is adequate is frankly ridiculous.

If you cannot ski very well, and there is the possibility of deep snow for any distance, snowshoes are the only option.

I'm actually a pretty good piste skier and I had my first taste of skiing down from a route off-piste last year. Was taken aback by how difficult I found it, even in very good snow conditions. Certainly I don't think I'd have been able to deal with any crevasses if we'd been on a glacier. You've got the bag, and the unusual feeling snow, and also touring skis are harder to ski. Plus you're tired after doing a route, etc., and the last few hundred yards to the bottom of the valley are always going to be steep and full of trees and streams.

In reply to Morgan Woods:
Last winter was really awful one, with almost no or very little snow also in the mountains. If it wasn´t for that very cold period I would say that the entire winter season was bad, but that saved the day a bit.

I'm reasonably aware of the ice climbing possibilities, so it's the Winter mountaineering routes I'd be quite interested to hear about. Are there any mountains you can climb which don't require too much snowshoeing? I've been to Bohinj in summer before. As mentioned above, nice place.

Thanks Jonnie comments are appreciated. I think we were envisaging just walking in for ice cragging - or perhaps snow-shoeing. I was asking more about ski approaches for larger Alpine climbs - high altitude couloir routes in Chamonix for example. I hadn't realised though that there were some quite big things you could do out of Cogne. Thanks! I should have made the scope of my query clearer in my original post.

I was in Cogne this summer for a look and the tourist information had the ice routes on a free map that they gave out! Amazing.

Having slogged in thigh deep snow before I'd recommend using touring skis every time! They keep you above the snow instead of in it and allow you to make good speed on the walk in. Yes, you need skiing ability to go downhill, but not on the flat (I did try to make that obvious, but hey?)

In reply to jhw: there are five major mountains that attracts the attention for winter climbing. First is Špik with its 900 m north wall but it is rarely in condition and it is also rarely climbed. However you can also climb it via an much easier route, but it is also a very long one. If the conditions are right there is quite some traffic on this route. Next one is Prisank. A lots of routes on his north face and all have very short approaches. Again, what can be climbed depends of a conditions. As with Špik, you can summit it via a ridge route, which is easier but a long one to. No skiis or snow shoes are requierd. Not for Špik not for Prisank. Further up the road is Mojstrovka with some easy south facing gullies up to grade III. North side of Mojstrovka is a different story with some serious routes. But again no skiis or snowshoes. I have to mention that to reach Prisank and Mojstrovka you have to drive some 10 km from Kr.Gora to Vrši&#269; pass. How far can you go depends of the amount of snow. In worst case you have to walk from Ko&#269;a na gozdu ( mountain hut ) for some 45 min to reach Mojstrovka and 10 min. for Prisank. That goes for ice climbing in Prisank area as well. Mojstrovka is so popular winter destination that even if you have to walk from this hut everything will be tracked so no problems there.
For the next climbing area you have to drive some 15 km to Tamar walley. Here too you have to walk some 4 km to reach a refuge at the end of Tamar walley. There are two what are considered the best winter routes in Slovenia (Travnik gullie and gullie between Travnik and Šite ). This two routes are very dependable of conditions and are not very often in. But againk If they are, there is heavy traffic in them. No skis or snowshoes. The last mountain is Jalovec with it steep couloir. An excellent route, very popular and in condition every year.

In reply to Frank4short: I think you're wrong. You can snowshoe uphill as fast as you can ski. So although you can ski down to the Argentiere hut much more quickly than you can walk (which only takes about an hour, anyway) once you start the uphill bit, there's little difference, if any. On the way back, yes, skis will be significantly quicker. But not to the point where the whole outing takes 3 times as long. It should not take more than a couple of hours to walk from the hut to the mid station at Lognan.

Having said all that, I learnt to ski because I was frustrated at following my skiing partner miles behind after doing winter routes. The best way to minimise the disadvantage is to go up to the hut and do two or more routes in one stay. The food is fantastic.

If you are 'slogging in through thigh deep snow' to routes in cogne I would suggest you are taking rather a risk of being avalanched sooner or later.

Also if you are going in on skis in cogne I would have thought it would be loads more of a faff than needed, especially coming down as it isnt all downhill so you would need to switch skins etc alot or ski down with your skins on which isnt great either.

On balance I think your reccomendation to ski into routes in cogne 'every time' is a little ludicrous.

In reply to Damo: The problem is skiing down with a full climbing pack. I am sure that some users of this forum can do it, and probably do it well, but that is very much the exception than the rule.

It is true that skiing will generally be significantly faster going uphill than snowshoeing, though I have seen 3 Belgians manage quite a fast ascent of a 3000m peak with them. The point is that anyone can snowshoe, but most people can't ski-mountaineer and are not likely to learn quickly or easily.

> (In reply to Damo) The problem is skiing down with a full climbing pack. I am sure that some users of this forum can do it, and probably do it well, but that is very much the exception than the rule.
>

Oh, I certainly agree with all that. I was just disagreeing with David's statement about relative speeds uphill. As for Cogne, much of that, iirc, is relatively flat - that's why there is a popular x-country circuit there - so some of the approach might be OK on skis for the poor skier, though I always walked it.

In the actual mountains though, for alpine routes or remote water ice routes, skiing badly back down, rucsac or not, is dangerous and unfun, as noted above. I've used skis a lot in Antarctica, but have always rued not being good enough to ski well (or at all) down some of the stuff we have skinned up.