If you believe what HBO said in his speeches before the election when he was supporting the bailout

11-26-2008, 10:39 PM

Patrick Johndrow

The bailouts are the biggest crimes perpetrated against the American taxpayer since the ethanol scam.

11-26-2008, 11:18 PM

Terry Britton

Quote:

Originally Posted by Patrick Johndrow

The bailouts are the biggest crimes perpetrated against the American taxpayer since the ethanol scam.

Not all ethanol is a scam. The corn ethanol that costs $2.40 to produce, and requires $0.51 tax credits to even be viable to sell at $2.70 may be.

The next gen gasification ethanol produced from crop residue at $1 per gallon (also utilizing next gen filtration over distilation), or from other biowaste at $0.20 per gallon is not a scam. The technology is just now coming on line, but requirs a little higher oil prices before many plants will be built. Even then there is a transporation problem since special pipelines would need to be built. I haven't checked into railroad tranportation, but if the plants aren't within a decent distance to a market, the trucking costs can easly jump to $1 per gallon.

Honostly though, I don't know how standard fermenation ethanol plants survive. The business case doesn't support them without grants installing them, and the owners selling out as soon as possible???? They may have had some profit when gas was at $4, but losing big $$$ now.

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Sorry for derailing this thread.

11-27-2008, 11:35 AM

Patrick Johndrow

Quote:

Originally Posted by Terry Britton

The next gen gasification ethanol produced from crop residue at $1 per gallon (also utilizing next gen filtration over distilation), or from other biowaste at $0.20 per gallon is not a scam. The technology is just now coming on line, but requirs a little higher oil prices before many plants will be built. Even then there is a transporation problem since special pipelines would need to be built. I haven't checked into railroad tranportation, but if the plants aren't within a decent distance to a market, the trucking costs can easly jump to $1 per gallon.

Believe it when I see it Terry

11-30-2008, 08:03 PM

kjrice

Quote:

Originally Posted by Patrick Johndrow

The bailouts are the biggest crimes perpetrated against the American taxpayer since the ethanol scam.

That is my thought as well. Give the money to the people before Big Corp.

Not all ethanol is a scam. The corn ethanol that costs $2.40 to produce, and requires $0.51 tax credits to even be viable to sell at $2.70 may be.

The next gen gasification ethanol produced from crop residue at $1 per gallon (also utilizing next gen filtration over distilation), or from other biowaste at $0.20 per gallon is not a scam. The technology is just now coming on line, but requirs a little higher oil prices before many plants will be built. Even then there is a transporation problem since special pipelines would need to be built. I haven't checked into railroad tranportation, but if the plants aren't within a decent distance to a market, the trucking costs can easly jump to $1 per gallon.

Honostly though, I don't know how standard fermenation ethanol plants survive. The business case doesn't support them without grants installing them, and the owners selling out as soon as possible???? They may have had some profit when gas was at $4, but losing big $$$ now.

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Sorry for derailing this thread.

One thing you do not address is the effect ethanol has on engines. E10, or whatever they call it, is causing MAJOR problems to marine engines and has cost several people I personally know about $1000 each in repairs (not just talking water separators here). Talk to the lawn care guys and see how much of a problem they are having running 10% ethanol through mowers, weed eaters, chainsaws, blowers…. Got an ATV? Smaller engines are already starting to show the effects of ethanol and it will not be long before people start to notice the negative effect it certainly has on larger engines.
Ethanol is a prime example of leaping before you look. In an effort to get off oil (or whatever reason you like to chose) ethanol was pushed in a big way including building refineries for ethanol rather than new oil refineries…. My prediction is that ethanol is a distant memory of a failed experiment in 5-10 years and if it were not for BIG CORN being involved it would not take that long.
BTW- at a gas station yesterday some dork pulled up at the pump next to me in a tiny, tiny little car that I couldn't fit into if I folded my legs in half and stcuk my head up my butt. I couldn't help but laugh as I topped off my BIG truck for $40 as they changed the sign to reflect yet another drop in gas prices

12-08-2008, 09:11 AM

badbullgator

Somebody was asking about this a while back. This is the heart of the matter at the big three. Wages and failure to compete have driven them to the point they are at and it will continue to do so until they are gone. I don’t see it as that big a deal because someone will profit from their demise whit a business model more like Toyota or Honda. You can build cars and make money it is proven. What you cannot do is pay people 5-10 times what they are worth to do a job and you cannot let a union beat you into submissionHere are some taken from Forbes:Labor cost per hour, wages and benefits for hourly workers.• Ford: $70.51 ($141,020 per year)• GM: $73.26 ($146,520 per year)• Chrysler: $75.86 ($151,720 per year)• Toyota, Honda, Nissan (in U.S.): $48.00 ($96,000 per year)According to American Association of University Professors and Institute of Education Sciences, the average annual compensation for a college professor in 2006 was $92,973 (average salary nationally of $73,207 plus 27 percent benefits).Bottom Line: The average United Auto Workers (UAW) worker with a high school degree earns 57.6 percent more than the average university professor with a Ph.D., and 52.6 percent more than the average worker at Toyota, Honda or Nissan.These guys are making more than teachers, physical therapist, nuclear technicians, some attorneys, nurses, engineers, pilots…embryologist, all people with college education and highly skilled. I am not knocking trades people, but the point I am trying to make is that most of the professions listed could easily learn to do a job on the assembly line but the same is not true of taking someone off the assembly line and making them a professional (of course some could, but not everybody or even the majority of them). You have to pay for work based on a “level of difficulty” if you willThen there's the "Job Bank".When one of the Big Three lays off an employee, that employee continues to receive all benefits - medical, retirement, etc., plus an hourly wage of $31 per hour. If this does not burn you butt I don’t know what will. Any body ever been on unemployment? Did you get $31/hr while on it and benefits? Retirement? Now the Big Three wants Joe Taxpayer to pick up this tab in a $34 billion bailout package - soon to be increased to $45 billion if Nancy and Hillary have their way.The Big Three want this money - not to build better autos - but to pay the tab for medical and retirement benefits for retired autoworkers.Not a good deal for us taxpayers.

12-08-2008, 10:40 AM

mjh345

Well done Corey, two spot on posts.
It really pisses me off every time I gas up, and realize I am putting 10%Ethanol fuel in my vehicle that cuts my mileage down 20%; and is harmful to my engine. All because my benevolent govt. idiots, who are whores to the corn lobbyists; have mandated away my freedom to buy the gasoline that my vehicle was designed to run on.

I guarantee you that the Big 3 will be back at the govt trough for another handout in short order after this initial bailout is approved.

The "FREE" enterprise system is designed to take care of these problems in the "FREE" market place.

Remember the free enterprise system, and Capitalism? We used to have an economic system somewhat based on it.

As a matter of fact.l I remember our celebration after we proved to the Russians that Capitalism trumps Socialism. Since that time, we have slowly moved away from Capitalist, free market policies.

I was just watching the news at lunch and saw 1) Sen Dodd calling for a Auto czar and 2) the president of the UAW pounding his fist saying that the union has already made concessions and that he “will not allow the American worker to be the scapegoat in this bailout”.
That poor old American worker making $70+/hr in wages and benefits, he is looking out for them, but more over I am sure he is looking out for himself and the UAW. I see the UAW as pretty much the same as the mafia. Do what they say or else they will resort to intimidation and thuggery to get what they want.
Of course I was soooo happy to hear Senator Dodd suggest nationalizing the auto industry so there can be a bit more corruption. The auto industry can’t run itself, how is some fool in the gooberment going to help?