No the argument is that a Chinese person is fooled into thinking there is a conscious Chinese person in the room.

i consider this a foregone conclusion in advance of the argument, which says that even though a machine can pass the turing test it posseses no abilities outside of its program, it is not conscious as we know it, it has no ability to interact with our environment within the same paradigm that we do, the level of machinery required is described all through aware species, from the lowest to the highest, man if you want to be speciocentric about it, without understanding the exact function of each brain part down to the neuron and endocrine system then fucking forget about machines exhibiting anything but mindless programmed drone like simulations of probably rich douchebags, fuck yeah!

the persons inability to understand Chinese is not the whole story, the room does.

did you even read my bowling alley synopsis? so, yeah, like i totally believe that concrete and wood can and do have some kind of consciousness, but it is far removed from ours, and no matter what form you put them into they still cant raise their consciousness potential, they might be impressive to the already conscious mind but their function is a simulation which is a very different word

once again, learn to build machines that replicate every last function of brain architecture with precice control mechanisms and then you can have your toy, you sicko!

I say a simulated consciousness is identical to real consciousness if no difference can be found.

gawd this is the dumbest crap i see repeated so often, yes, if you want to live in uninformed paranoia then certainly, in all truth we live in a simulation, Nothing is real, everything is just Charge swirling around Nothing in complex fractal form to create matter and consciousness

i consider this a foregone conclusion in advance of the argument, which says that even though a machine can pass the turing test it posseses no abilities outside of its program, it is not conscious as we know it, it has no ability to interact with our environment within the same paradigm that we do,

We are, well I am, not taking about the Turing test, but Searle's argument that machines can never be conscious and the Turing test is invalid. A machine passing the test is not conscious. I know i'm conscious because i'm self aware, but for every other person I meet I make this assumption only by analogy. I have no access to their self consciousness, yet I think they are. Why should I think differently of a machine in that case. You are not conscious as I know consciousness. The heart is a pump, and nothing more, they can be made from non biological materials, as can kidneys and livers and lungs. The brain is a processing device, the higher brain. When it manipulates logic it is not different in its effect than a computer manipulating logic. Consciousness its been proposed is just an illusion, but that's not my concern. I simply say if an object exhibits intelligence, its intelligent.

did you even read my bowling alley synopsis? so, yeah, like i totally believe that concrete and wood can and do have some kind of consciousness, but it is far removed from ours, and no matter what form you put them into they still cant raise their consciousness potential, they might be impressive to the already conscious mind but their function is a simulation which is a very different word

once again, learn to build machines that replicate every last function of brain architecture with precice control mechanisms and then you can have your toy, you sicko!

I started to read but got lost in the richness of the prose. You may think we need to model the brain in order to create a conscious machine. I disagree. Mechanical hearts don't model biological ones, they merely simulate the effects, I see no reason why an AI program could not do the same. You think otherwise and are welcome to do so.

gawd this is the dumbest crap i see repeated so often, yes, if you want to live in uninformed paranoia then certainly, in all truth we live in a simulation, Nothing is real, everything is just Charge swirling around Nothing in complex fractal form to create matter and consciousness

but thats just crazy, right?

No not crazy - lots of people these days use science to create a world view such as yours. Fractals, charges.... some bod at IBM sees a computer program drawing fractals - then a few years latter people start thinking that's how the world works. It sounds crazy, buts as old as humanity. Fractal believers are following the modern priests... the real funny thing is your simulated world, the ideas of simulation, fractals et al are product of computers. What a laugh.

A laugh as you've like many mistaken science and reality as the same. Science models reality, makes generalizations not found in reality. Its like a wonderfully accurate map, very useful, and captures reality almost precisely, but it isn't reality.

"fractal form" is a simple recursive computer program, and poor smucks believe that is how the universe works - as I say what a laugh.
But if it comforts them - (from the reality of which we can never have access to*) its OK.

We are, well I am, not taking about the Turing test, but Searle's argument that machines can never be conscious and the Turing test is invalid. A machine passing the test is not conscious. I know i'm conscious because i'm self aware, but for every other person I meet I make this assumption only by analogy. I have no access to their self consciousness, yet I think they are. Why should I think differently of a machine in that case. You are not conscious as I know consciousness.

dodgy... consciousness runs a spectrum, a frog is not aware the same as a bear, even among humans some are tarded and others high functioning, these states can all be judged by the mind, put in order, determined, now truly you can believe a machine is conscious, identify its actions as displaying awareness, and certainly it is to its ability, but that machine awareness is low order by virtue of its design, its quirky in an obvious way, like a frog in the sun or a bear that smells a garbage can, sure it may fool some tards into believing it is sentient, but then again many people think that politicians are sentient and not just biological robots

the machine mind will be obviously machined until the point at which the construction perfectly mimics the predecessor.

Fractals, charges.... some bod at IBM sees a computer program drawing fractals - then a few years latter people start thinking that's how the world works. It sounds crazy, buts as old as humanity. Fractal believers are following the modern priests... the real funny thing is your simulated world, the ideas of simulation, fractals et al are product of computers. What a laugh.

wow, uninformed rant much? computer generated fractals are indeed a product of computers, derp, but the edge definition of a cloud is not, you need to think some more

the simulated universe theory comes from studying photons, not computers

wrong, the heart is so much more than a pump, it is the primary electromagnetic regulator for the body/Mind relationship, you need to read more science papers old man, this is where we are now

I had a friend who had two heart transplants. The first was German - 'Vorsprung Durch Technik' we joked. His second was English with the added twist the donor was still alive! The explanation, the donor had a heart lung transplant, whose heart was fine- so my friend had it. I must admit I noticed no change in his Mind / Body relationship.

it appears you dont KNOW jack shit about brain function or computer function as you have conflated them in a child like way

I admit to little knowledge of Brain science, but the only kind of ideas re antennas and stuff I've come across are from people with mental issues. Computer function I do know about, from logic gates up. The truth tables for logic gates are the same as the truth tables in academic logic. I'm aware of the FRE cycle and programmed in machine code.... through to higher languages so please! You work through a set of logic operations and the same outputs appear in simple CPUs. I use my brain, they use simple transistor switches, the results are identical.

similations are not what they simulate, they are by definition, simulations(always lacking)

Yes i'm aware of that. And that an Emulation isn't lacking. That's one theme in Tipler's book, and he rightly says that the only emulations we have at present (as far as I know) are computer emulations. Many large systems run on virtual machines. But an emulation is indistinguishable from what it emulates. Unlike Bostrom's (SP?) simulation argument, Tipler's Omega point creates emulated people.

What a funny buried thread subject this one is.
Why aren't you busy annoying people on Reddit with your supposed authoritarian artiste sham BS?
Are the dumb brain dead "bitches" over at Reddit smarter than you also?https://www.reddit.com/user/jliat/

hey... is that you just scrolling through midi c note automated previews on the EMU Proteus 2500 for almost 7 minutes?
you could have done/can do so much more with that machine even in total creative minimalist mode...
and you released that under the title "Gnosis" Art as metaphysics???
now be honest... especially since you are already busted/debunked
what a pathetic attempt passing it off as "Metaphysical Art"
thinking no one would ever notice what you actually did
and/or call you out on such rubbish
sort of sums up your entire life's work in noise
OMFGs you are a lame ass no talent bullshit artiste slacker
you are really only fooling/cheating yourself
plus horrible example for new people in here creating noise
stick to computers & philosophy(something you seem more adept with)
rather than attempting to sell your egotistic/narcissistic infused garbage "Ariste" persona to usdogs are smarter than you

The avatar you posted above is not mine, it is from a guy called Luke, who is a diagnosed Schizophrenic, and I suppose a friend. He used to post here, but Daric AKA Fire AKA Killing Raven Sun... and some others kept badgering him to commit suicide, on Maniacs I think, to the extent the thread was removed. Partly I think why Luke stopped posting. OK so you've said you aren't nice so it wont be of concern, but I thought I should tell you that the avatar is not mine. Anyway Luke is doing OK, set to get a Masters in creative writing.

WhiteWarlock wrote:
What a funny buried thread subject this one is.
Why aren't you busy annoying people on Reddit with your supposed authoritarian artiste sham BS?
Are the dumb brain dead "bitches" over at Reddit smarter than you also?

Please try to get this right. I'm not the one claiming to be smarter than anyone. That is Daric AKA Fire AKA Killing Raven Sun, maybe you, IDK. You certainly spend quite some posts calling me stupid - so I guess you think you are smarter. I don't subscribe to such ideas, I've worked with kids who are illiterate but can value scrap metal in seconds, for all our 'smartness' we couldn't survive in the Amazon as the tribes there do. Partly why I think so called 'survivalists' are silly, like the one you post Youtubes. Yeh, got computers and a 4x4! Still if it rocks their boat. Not saying they are smarter, or I am. I know some stuff you don't, you know stuff I don't - maybe lots.

The problem with reddit was a mod who crushed all argument. Not conducive to a debate re anything. Allowing free play also isn't - like Troniks exploded. You were not around then?

hey... is that you just scrolling through midi c note automated previews on the EMU Proteus 2500 for almost 7 minutes?

Partly true, much more than 7 minutes. And if you check also through the presets on a Roland JV-1010 - over 1000 now, and still working on others. Next up a Roli Seaboard Grand.

WhiteWarlock wrote:
you could have done/can do so much more with that machine even in total creative minimalist mode...

Yes i'm well aware of that. But its not the motivation for the project.

WhiteWarlock wrote:
and you released that under the title "Gnosis" Art as metaphysics???
now be honest... especially since you are already busted/debunked

I'm not aware of being busted or debunked, merely some posters - 2 - on some board keep saying they have. One whose contribution to noise is a single free bandcamp, lots of videos from youtube, and not much else, and another who hasn't even a bandcamp piece. I'm being honest here? Unlike WhiteWarlock who has to remain anonymous. But yes - Art as Metaphysics. Also stuff on the Gulf war - Thurston Moore collaboration if I remember. And the Bikini tests - which caused more anger than you and Daric put together.

WhiteWarlock wrote:
what a pathetic attempt passing it off as "Metaphysical Art"
thinking no one would ever notice what you actually did
and/or call you out on such rubbish

Of course I wanted people to notice. And sure - someone like yourself wont like it, which is OK.
You are into P.E. and Black Metal. I'm no fan. But i'd respect those that are into it. But I guess part of your 'thing' is not respecting others.. IDK.

WhiteWarlock wrote:
sort of sums up your entire life's work in noise

Not really.

WhiteWarlock wrote:
OMFGs you are a lame ass no talent bullshit artiste slacker
you are really only fooling/cheating yourself

This is the internet - you can say this stuff with no comeback. If i'm really only fooling myself why are you bothering - sorting through old posts, visiting my SoundCloud site etc. Why does it seem to annoy you. Previously you called my work childish, I pointed out that is often used by some (in the 'establishment') to criticise new art. I make no claims about my work though, some find it of interest others don't, and have been far more violent than you or Daric.

WhiteWarlock wrote:
plus horrible example for new people in here creating noise

Again - your example is one of secrecy and anonymity. Of Death Metal, which isn't noise. My advice to those new people is to ignore the advice and try to find your own path. As one art lecturer said - and I think in art its good advice, 'if you see Buddha on the way to enlightenment - Kill Him!' Or another - Blake 'If a fool persists in his folly he will become wise'.

Again - i'm not going to take your advice, as above, and certainly not from a person who continually tells me i'm stupid and to fuck off.

WhiteWarlock wrote:
rather than attempting to sell your egotistic/narcissistic infused garbage "Ariste" persona to us

For any new comer, there is no 'US' we are born on our own, its our own life, pain and joy, and our own death. There is nothing to loose because we are all lost. Though some pretend otherwise, and if that gets them through the night - its all right. The term Art is also of no consequence.

WhiteWarlock wrote:dogs are smarter than you

True. I owned a dog once who watched puzzled as i fell into a deep snow drift.

the Fool is in a constant state of discovery, relying entirely on an internal compass to guide and lead him to the places he refuses to follow with any map other than his own. His naïve wanderlust is balanced out by the small dog seen "nipping" at his heels as he approaches a cliff, oblivious of falling, for he has no fear to influence his judgement. The dog represents the world, a place characterized by sensibility, order, and limitations. The dog attempts to pull the Fool back into the world, but the Fool is a dreamer, and will always choose to live in the airy space of idealism than to exist in the safe, but consequentially quite boring realm of the everyday.

that was the JV1010 halfrack?
you shouldn't own gear
you are too fucking lame for using it correctly
wow you made a basic demo of scrolling through Roland PCM waveform presets
then tried passing it off as "Gnosis"
what a fuckwit wanker
the example seems typical of your innate lack of ability & lackluster scams
btw that "Avatar" is Shredder from TMNT
you obviously aren't smart enough to figure out or respect why shit like that is disrespectful & to whom
yet you like pretending that you have any clue
anyone that has been around can see right through your little lame game

you shouldn't own gear
you are too fucking lame for using it correctly

OMG there you go again - correctly, Mr Correct. This a noise board! There is no correct, correct is wrong.
No input mixers, hey Hendrix - play the guitar correctly not with your mouth! And stop the feedback - even!

look for the JV series SoundFX PCM card
use it real time with cruicial "hold" pedal
that is the secret for drones with that Roland PCM synth series
XP series synths are good machines especially with that built in sequencer & microscope mode
OMG there you go again - correctly, Mr Correct. This a noise board! There is no correct, correct is wrong.
No input mixers, hey Hendrix - play the guitar correctly not with your mouth! And stop the feedback - even!Eye can actually play/compose multiple instruments including Vox... unlike some unskilled people such as youEye once procured a signed copy of Silence by Cage...
read through it and it came off more like a marketing scam
rather than much good insights for creating noise or composition
so eye sold it to Thurston Moore
rather than just have another collectable
Yes, was around Tronix when it started
this place is obviously not Tronix nor unfortunately the same type of useful resource

have written some long Wagnerian styled operas using the SR-JV series Orchestral card...
also used it for soundtracking/background tracks with vox spoken word
the Roland SR-JV Orchestral card has some superb string samples
there was a website with demo samples from all the cards
seems like it vanished or just having hard time finding anymore
my 4x card slots are filled on that machine so haven't been in the market for more
happy with all the ones currently installed
busy on totally different style project for months
so haven't been using that synth/machine recently