Rylan wrote:If Tretiak stays in goal in 1980, USA does not beat the Soviets and Miracle never happens. Just my gut feeling.

Meh, I mean, anything is possible in these what-if situations...but just know that Myshkin wasn't exactly chopped liver and Tretiak was certainly far from infalliable...when Canada scouts first saw Tretiak they said he was terrible (he did surrender 8 goals the game he saw them, that's a little mini-story on its own) and remember, Myshkin was brilliant in 1984 Canada Cup (Tournament All-Star Team) and was dominant in the 1985 World Championships...even before that, Myshkin was stellar when he shutout the NHL All-Stars in 1979. So he wasn't necessarily a slouch either.

Rylan wrote:I am not saying he was a slouch. It was more of psych advantage to the US than a talent thing. Getting Tretiak pulled had to be a HUGE morale boost to the Americans. If that makes sense?

Oh certainly. There's a lot of factors that go into that game and that Olympics, for sure. Tikhonov was trying to get his guys going also, the team didn't take the United States too seriously - for good reason. The Soviets weren't playing terribly well and Tretiak's lack of focus was clear on that last goal of the period. Though, Tretiak's bounce-backability was historically noteworthy, it's hard to tell what would have happened if Tretiak remained in the goal. Unfortunately for Tikhonov, his yanking of Tretiak caused his team to lock up even further. Tikhonov admits it was his biggest mistake.

Rylan wrote:If we think Soviets are 86'd, why not just do all of Europe? Is Kovalev or Bondra better? Is Jagr the greatest European player ever? Where does Hasek fall in terms of all time greats? etc.

Soviets can be brought to further discussion. This all of Europe thing, does it have the same parameters of the Russian discussion? That is, what they did in the NHL? Or their complete work? Which would drag in players like Tretiak, Kharlamov, etc.

Well, top of my head, Lidstrom and Hasek are 1, 2. The order can be discussed certainly. Then Jagr. That's what my initial instinct tells me. After that, I think it gets interesting...am I missing someone that could penetrate that top-3?

1. Nicklas Lidström - 7x Norris Trophy Winner. 11x First-Team AS, 2x Second-Team AS, Conn Smythe Trophy. 6x Top-10 Hart finishes (non-traditional d-man award). 4x Champion, 6x Finalist. 5x Top-10 in points. 5x Led d-men in points, 14x top-5 AD in points. The predominant defenseman of the generation. Arguably a top-5 defenseman of all-time. A host of Norris trophies, playoff success, international success. Has the highest winning pct. among skaters in NHL history. Perfect defensively, terrific puck-mover, all situation player. Calculated, almost robotic. Sprang onto the scene in the 1997 Finals when he and Vladimir Konstantinov shutdown Eric Lindros. Catapulted to stardom when he seemingly upped his game to account for the untimely loss of Konstantinov. The only half knock you can make against him is the weaker competition he faced among his peers late in his career. Bourque, Stevens, MacInnis, Chelios, Coffey, Niedermayer, etc. retired around the same time. After that, he faced relatively limited competition.

2. Dominik Hašek - 6x Vezina Trophy Winner. 6x First-Team AS, 2x Hart Trophy winner (extremely rare for a goalie, only 'tender to win two and did it back to back). 2x leader in GAA, 9x top-5 in GAA. 6x leader in save pct., 9x top-5 in save pct. 4x leader in shutouts, 7x top-5 in shutouts. All-time career leader in save pct. (adjust for era, each of the next 17 goaltenders are currently active in the league and 22 of 23 are active (Manny Fernandez)). His save pct. above league average his staggering. 2x Champion, 4x Finalist. Won the first best-on-best Olympics, named best goaltender. Ignoring his European exploits (youngest pro player in history at the time at 16, Czechoslovakian Best Goaltender 5x in a row, etc.) he has an impressive resume and a great case for best goaltender of all-time when you put it all together. Had a style all his own, acrobatic and with a sharp sense of vertical geometry. A terrific athlete that is still performing at a high level into his mid-40's, he's been a pro for 30 years! When he sprang to North American scene: A 70-save, 4 overtime shutout vs. New Jersey (Brodeur) in the 1994 playoffs. When he assured us of his stardom: the 1998 Olympics, defeating all of the best players in the world, including a shutout of the mighty Russians in the Gold Medal game.

3. Jaromír Jágr - 1x Hart Trophy Winner (nearly won it in 2000 while missing a quarter of the games). 7x First-Team AS, 1x Second-Team AS. 8x Top-10 in goals (11th all-time); 3x leader in assists, 10x top-10 in assists (12th all-time); 5x leader in points, 11x top-10 in points (8th all-time). 2x Champion. Gold medal in the first best-on-best Olympics. Was considered the best skater in the world throughout the late 90's and scored throughout the C&G Era in tremendous fashion. One of the finest playmaking wingers in history and will still finish top-10 all-time in goals when he retires. His 1999 and 2001 seasons (both 120-point efforts) are two of the best seasons of the era, he dominated his peers in such a way that is remarkable. A power forward that controlled the puck like few others, his possession game with players hanging off of him was extremely noteworthy. His coming out party: 1992 Stanley Cup Finals vs. Chicago. Cemented his stardom: The shortened lockout season where he scored 70 points in 48 games.

More to follow...

Last edited by mikey287 on Mon Aug 06, 2012 9:38 pm, edited 1 time in total.

I don't know just a quick guess...lots to discuss, but again, it's not a terribly useful venture. Dividing into eras and dissecting, might be more interesting...but even so, dividing by time can be dubious and subjective...

Was really thinking about researching some early and pre-NHL stuff. I remember being fascinated by a book I read a million years ago (will have to go home to my bookshelf to remember the title, but it was deinitely Leafs/Habs-centric).

4. Jari Kurri - 2x First-Team AS, 3x Second-Team AS. Led the league in goals once, 4x top-5 in goals (18th all-time in goals). 3x top-10 in assists. 6x top-10 in points (20th all-time in points). Selke finishes: 2nd, 3rd, 4th, 5th, 10th, 10th. 6th all-time in shorthanded goals. Received regular AS winger voting and Lady Byng voting. 5x Champion, 7x Finalist. Kurri is incorrectly regarded as an also-ran with Gretzky, a tag should be left for Blair McDonald or even Bernie Nicholls to some extent. Kurri is one the more well-rounded players in NHL history that regularly played in all situations for his teams. His finishing ability made him valuable to Gretzky and the Oilers, he was a noted marksman that scored on over 19% of his career shots. In the Oilers five Stanley Cup wins, Kurri led the playoffs in goals four times. Scored over 100 goals in 200 playoff games. His coming out party was his performance in the pre-dynastic Oilers postseason runs, shaking off the "Euros are soft and not competitive" mantra that surrounded many at that time (I blame Inge Hammarstrom... ). Noted finisher, tenacious defensive player and all-around gentleman, Jari Kurri was one of the great ones.

5. Börje Salming - One of the pioneers of Europeans in the NHL. 1x First-Team AS, 5x Second-Team AS. Norris Trophy record: (2, 2, 3, 3, 4, 4, 5, 10). Hart trophy record: (4, 7). 5x Top-10 in goals among d-men. 6x Top-10 in assists AD. 6x Top-10 in points AD. 3x Viking Award Winner (best Swedish player outside Sweden). Named to early best-on-best All-Tournament Team (1976 Canada Cup). Considered one of the league's premier defensemen throughout the 1970's and 80's. The first great European-born and -trained player in the NHL. Salming had immense skill and was noted for having almost no weaknesses. He was recognized league-wide for his terrific skating and puck-rushing skills, his snappy wristshot and his adept passing skills. As a well-conditioned, strong athlete, Salming could play physically and was a great defensive player that routinely had to shutdown some of the league's best opposition. Salming was a fearless competitor that seemed to enjoy blocking shots. According to projections and print evidence from the time, Salming played in upwards of 30 minutes per night in the NHL and played at least that much during the Canada Cup (which is when he cemented his stardom). One of the finest overall d-men in history.

6. Peter Forsberg - 1x Hart Trophy winner. 3x First-Team AS. Led the league in assists once, 7x top-10 in assists. Led the league in points once, 5x top-10 in points. 2x Champion. Represented Sweden proudly in many Olympics and other best-on-best tournaments. Prominent in Hart and Selke voting. Forsberg was a terrific competitor, insanely skilled, an elite playmaker that could play rough while maintaining a strong defensive conscience. Recognized as one of the league's best players in his era. Unfortunately, injuries derailed what could have been an even more amazing career. Forsberg was limited to just 708 NHL games from 1994-95 through 2010-11. He could have been a five-time Swedish Olympian, but missed one because of injury. He could have been a multiple Hart Trophy winner, but will have to settle for one. He might have made the difference on the 2002 Avs and gotten at least one more championship, but will have to settle for two. He could have more than one 80-game seasons, he could have had multiple 30+ goal seasons, he has none, he could have been top-10 all time in assists...he's 66th (one assist behind Salming). Forsberg leaped onto the scene with his masterful shootout move in the 1994 Olympics vs. Canada. Trivia: Does anyone remember what fringe NHL goaltender that Forsberg made to reconsider his job choice on that shootout move in Lillehammer?

7. Sergei Fedorov - Hart trophy, 2x Selke winner, 1st team AS, two top-10 point finishes, multi-position player, major piece to 3 Cup wins and another runner-up finish, highest scoring Russian in NHL history, represented himself well in the first best-on-best olympics (silver), a peak that rivals Forsberg, left you wanting a tiny bit more after teasing us with that 1994 season that was one of the finest seasons in NHL history. Noted defensive force, so much so that he was moved to defense both later in his career and at times in his prime. All situation player. A mortal lock for the HHOF. His best is better than many players' best, which is noteworthy. He had the ability to be more dominant than Forsberg, faster than Bure, and take over games...it didn't always happen that way though. He narrowly misses being the #6 on this list (mainly because I don't want to hear it from Andre! ). Fedorov's coming out party and climb to stardom was reached when he took over the entire league in 1994 and made it his own personal playground.