The TURTLE ROOM (4:30 +/-, less a pace than an attitude)

wow, thanks for the great response. I am constantly reading Marathon books! Love them. I'm reading the Non Runners Guide to train for a Marathon. Great read. 4 day run schedule, one long run. They guarantee you will finish! I'm wondering if I should find a coach? I am running for the first time with a training group this Saturday. A bit nervous about that. Never ran with a group before.

hello out there new to turtle room, just saw the title. i ought to be here. monday ran 30.6 with the first 26.2 at just about 4:30. feel fine after. just spoke to my track coach neighbor who thinks if i can do 30 miles, i can run a 5:30 mile. i said "what?...no way! that's way more daunting than 30 miles!" he said i am wrong and it's easier.

Reinventmyself- Regarding group running, try it, and see if you like it. I generally run alone, but ran with a friend one summer at lunch. If you have a compatible buddy or group, you can help motivate each other. I'd probably still do some runs alone so you don't get dependent on a group.

As far as a coach, if you can find a good one and can afford it, it would probably help. Since you are a new runner, a few sessions to check out your mechanics would certainly seem worthwhile.

Reinventmyself- NOT a dumb question, and yes it is absolutely possible. I'd guess the majority of runners do not employ a coach. It is expensive, and you need to make sure you have a good one, or you could do more harm than good. There is so much free info out there (both blessing and a curse). Read up and all you can. Try stuff and see what works for you. I have learned the most by just trying stuff and adapting it for my unique circumstances.

Some stuff may seem counter-intuitive, such as running long runs slower than your projected marathon pace, doing speed work, when it seems your focus should be on more miles, and not doing anything longer than a 20 mile training run (I've never done more than 18) when you have to run 26.2 miles. That stuff is repeated so often that it must have been tested and verified by so many, that I accept it as good information. The idea is that you don't want to leave your best race on the training road. You do all these things so that on MARATHON DAY you are ready to run your peak event. And Relax. If you get strong and fit (with whatever plan or hybrid you chose) and confident and at the start line, chances are very good that you will finish your first marathon.

Also, long runs give you a chance to experiment with fuel, hydration, clothes, hat, sunglasses, gadgets, music, shoes, whatever, so you know what you like and what works for you. I'd say don't overthink it, but then I'd be a hypocrite. But, have fun with it.

This really helps getting advice & having someone to talk to about training. I'm going to run over lunch in a little bit. Looking forward to it. I have to get my mind straight...get the negativity out. Thanks for the advice.

Hey, guys. Spent most of the morning in court but I just wanted to say hello and that I have 6 miles tonight, haha.

Reinventmyself, it is not a dumb question and it can be done. I prefer to have a plan and now use a coach, just because I like to be accountable for someone if I miss a run or workout. It's not the same to say: meh, I just don't feel it and quit that day than to write a weekly email to your coach and explain why you didn't do the 60 miles that week you were supposed to, LOL. But a plan should suffice you to do your first (and even all your marathons).

This is so motivating, having someone to talk running with! I think my husband gets tired of my running thoughts. I ran a quick two miles over lunch today. I ran them fast, still a little cool here 51 degrees. I'm going to run 2-3 miles after work when I get home. Thanks all for the tips! I really appreciate it. Excited.

Reinvent - I totally agree, I love getting the updates and getting to update on my runs! Seems like just as good of a coach to have ask you on here! I haven't run a marathon but plan on not having a coach. I like the looks of hal higdons novice plan. He even had a super novice that takes you from 1 mile to 26.2.

Me- went on a 7.5 m bike ride yesterday evening. It was fun but Kansas wind is always a kicker. Plan on running 3 tonight! It's suppose to be the warmest day of the week at 80 today. Can't wait to get my summer skin back!

LindsaySpring...good for you on the bike ride. I wish I liked to bike. I don't care for it much. I sure we had 80 degree weather now. I'm in Minnesota...50's right now, last Friday had 11 inches of snow. It's time for summer. Have a good run tonight. I'll look forward to hearing about it.

Driving home for lunch I saw two people running. I love running in the mornings, but this time of year, I don't get to take advantage of the nicest part of the day. So...even though I did my pool run and swim this morning, I did a quick 2 miles at lunch on the spur of the moment. No watch, no gear except for my knee braces. Bonus I learned that I am OK in skirt and short-sleeved shirt even in 50 degrees with wind for a 5K. And got to check out a new pair of shoes. And double bonus-- it was windy and cool enough that I didn't sweat enough to need a shower, at least IMO.

What shoes did you buy? I'm in the market for a new pair. I like to swim in the mornings too. I did the last two weeks. This week I've been in a funk...happy to say I got through it with the help here!

Good afternoon! Today was supposed to be 5 mile tempo but a friend (also a runner) wanted me to try a Tabata class with her at the gym today. It was good but I don't know if I'll do it again and now I'm not sure I will get the 5 miles in. Tomorrow is supposed to be SRD since my long run is Friday but that is only 2 days of running this week and 2 days last week. Yikes.

I met with my coach randomly while I was at the gym. He has me motivated for my long run after determining why I hit the wall last week. I was fueling but not enough to get through 20 miles. We actually crunched some numbers and I realized I need to almost double what I was eating.

reinventmyself - Yes, I have a coach, well a guide anyway. He actually comes with my gym membership and has a great running background. Also, my chiropractor is a triathlete and has been so supportive of all of my training. I don't know if I would actually pay for a running coach but they have definitely been beneficial. Oh and this group is wonderful as well.

Reinvent, I just finished my first full this weekend and I did not use a coach. Instead, I had Mr.Hal Higdon dictating my life--or at least 18 weeks of it. I just printed out his directives and kept them in my phone--a constant reminder to say "no" to the late night cocktail parties the day before a long run.

If you have good self discipline, this can work.

As a side note, I'm not sure the taper crazies end on Marathon day. I went out for a slow and easy 3 today. The legs felt ok, but my mind was sending me the craziest of messages.

Rmyself. Does the plan guarantee that you finish the race or the training? Believe it or not, the training is quite a bit harder to finish. You found the best cure for not feeling like running, which is to run anyway. A coach can really help people train better. For me, the difference would likely be less than the difference between a run I will do happily and a run I won't do at all. The freedom to decide what I'm going to do after the run starts is a big part of the joy of running.

Lifted weights for 80 minutes then ran 4.9 miles with 10 X 10 second strides. The first few were dreadfully slow, but I got into them and did better after that.

Reinvent- Adidas Crazy Quick and for maybe the stupidest reason I ever bought a pair of shoes. My volunteer assignment for the Boston Marathon is in the BAA Adidas Merchandise booth. They prefer that workers wear Adidas shoes. I used to wear lots of Adidas, but since I switched to zero drop, mimalist styles, it was hard to find Adidas shoes. I put on a pair of my beloved Adidas Bostons, and felt like I was wearing high heels. The shoes I bought were the closest thing Adidas has to a minimalist shoes, but they still have a heel that feels built up when compared to my Altra Torins, Brooks Pure Flow, or Saucony Kinvaras. Also, I work there until 6 Pm and have tickets for Book of Mormon at 6:30 at a theater about a mile or so away. Looking at my options with the T (subway/train), my best bet is to run there. So, I needed a pair of Adidas shoes that I could stand in all day, and then run a mile in. They are cute: gray with bright pink soles and trim. They were OK to run in for a couple of miles, but they won't replace any of my regular shoes.

Tracey- enjoy the rest

TPM- I agree. For people who need to be accountable, a coach or a training partner can help. I rarely miss a workout. I have found that sleeping in or whatever seems like a good idea at the time, but then I beat myself up later and do all sorts of crazy things to squeeze the workout in later. After a while, I remember this, and it is easier to just bite the bullet and do it.

BTW, I saw one of your posts on another forum about how you reach and approximation of how fast your trail run time would be had it been done on a road. I thought it was terrific. Do you have any similar formula for estimating what a hill run time would be had it been done on flat road? I saw something online once, but it was far too much physics for me.

Cactus girl - I feel your craziness. I did a reverse taper after my marathon. Didn't feel right until I was back to my regular schedule.

Question: Is that last 6 really so taxing as to make a 26.2 mile run that much different from a 20 in terms of recovery? I mean, we run 18 or 20 regularly, maybe take a rest day or a couple of days easy, but really it is just part of the schedule. Then all of a sudden after 26.2, we need a month to recover?

tsyms- I pick the brain of one of the trainers at the Y who is a runner. One time he introduced me to a track coach who advised me that the best way for someone my age to gain speed without getting injured was tempo and fartlek runs. He advised against track workouts. So, yes, take free coaching whenever you can get it.

Reinvent -- I'm about to run my first marathon -- been following a plan published by Runner's World (I am a slave to the plan). I looked at several plans, and picked one that matched my fitness level and how many days I wanted to run a week (5). I ended up with an intermediate plan -- I had to scale back hills and speed work due to a wonky knee -- but I'm almost through the peak.

Saucony shoes for me, I think I'm on my 4th straight pair of Ride 6 (running in a new pair right now, which will be the shoes I wear for the marathon). I wore Brooks before, but I underpronate and the Saucony shoes work best for me.

10 miles for me this morning, rest tomorrow, then three straight days ending with my last really long run before taper.

kkr, never have figured out a good way to estimate how much hills are worth. The percentage differences are small, and, for a marathon course, the placement of the hills can matter as much as the length and grade. For example, Sugarloaf in Maine has a long climb around the 8 mile mark that is way less of an issue than the Newton hills on the Boston course.

I'll weigh in on shoes, but it takes most of us some trial and error to find what we like and when we do, something about us changes or the shoes disappear from he market. For the present, here's my shoe story. Running shoes should be light weight, and when possible, blue. The last 2 years my feet and legs have been happiest in either Saucony or New Balance. The Saucony Fastwitch offers some support as does the Mirage which has more cushioning. Both are light enough to be fun to run in. The original New Balance Minimus R10 has some cushioning but no support, the 1400 is a kind of like a cushioned racing flat. ALL HAVE BEEN ON SALE.

tpm and anyone else that runs and CT on the same day...How do you do it?

I did the tabata class this morning and tried to run this afternoon. My legs were not happy with me. I only did 1.29 miles and then I stopped back at the house to take my dog for a 1.5 mile walk. Definitely rest day tomorrow.

Matt- Good job on the 10! And good luck with your long run this weekend!

I spread myself thin today and I thought I could do it! But I ditto what tsyms said.. CT and run? I did some weight training this afternoon and ended up only running 2 instead of 3. Granted I feel like I had a lot of factors that could have done it. One, my roommate decided to run with me so that changes my mentality I guess. Also, being in the sun for most the day and the of the run heat probably didn't help on my energy either.

I was looking into getting the new brooks pure flow 3's. They felt amazing on, but I was worried about switching to a more minimalist shoe as I have been running with support.

Though I bike, I envy the swimmers! I would love to be able to get endurance on that end but it wears me out! I also don't have pool access =(

I do cross train and run the same day, but I run in the early morning and do weights at night. Except for the occasional run to the Y (about a mile), workout, run home, I have never done it the other way around. Yesterday's lunch run after a morning pool workout was a spur of the moment, spring fever sort of thing, and I only ran 2 miles easy. I specifically work out on run nights, so I have the pool workout the next morning. Also, time wise, it is the only way to fit it all in.

Lindsey-- if you are going to try minimalist shoes, you need to start slowly. Wear them for only a short time the first couple of weeks, gradually increasing the time until you get used to them. i would say one mile would be the maximum time/distance for a first run. Yes, that may mean changing your shoes mid run. I would sometimes put them on my last mile, or just go for a little extra after I finished my planned run. You could also use them for a short warmup and then change. My theory for switching was that I had a custom correction with my orthotics. If the shoe also corrected, I was overcorrecting. Also, chi running works best with less shoe.

Prior to retiring the only cross-training I did was bike commute (18 miles round trip) after morning runs. Most of the times I did that, I rode easily and only worked hard getting the fixie up and down hills. Occasionally I would do 45 second to 1 minute all-out sprints on the way home, but only if the spirit moved me. Lately, I've found that lifting weights for an hour and running for an hour makes one really good workout. The order doesn't seem to matter and I usually lift first so I'm not sweating all over the benches.

My switch to somewhat minimalist shoes (NB Minimalist R10, Altra Instincts) went fine just putting them on and running. When I concluded that if less shoe was good, lesser (NB Minimalist Trail, Vibrams) would be even better, it failed completely. Even short runs didn't work. It was far easier running barefoot on grass than running anywhere in real minimalist shoes. Shoe stuff is very individual, so YMMV!

Lindsey- Docket is correct. The Brooks Pure Flows are not minimalist per se, but they are a low heel to toe drop shoe with minimal support features. They have decent cushioning which is why I like them. Saucony Kinvaras are similar , with a little less cushioning. My Altra the Torins are my favorite. They have a wide toe box, zero drop, and quite a bit of cushioning, but are very light weight. They are especially my favorite since I have been having the metatarsal issue on runs over 6-7 miles. They look a bit weird, and are not carried in a lot of stores. I've found mine on Zappos, Amazon, and E-bay. Took a chance, loved 'em, and have stocked up on sales.

tpm- Also correct. It is all individual. However, if you err on the side of wearing them too much, you will be sore; if you wear them less than you could have (you'll never know), there won't be a problem, it will just take longer to be wearing them full time. It's like baking, you can always put it in for longer, but can't undo too much.

Love this thread... I mean all of you! I'm not caught up on recent posts. I will do that today. I just wanted to put in a quick post. I got another 2 miles in after work yesterday. I used my Ipod fitness app. I was shocked to see my pace 9:45. I've been kinda been worried my pace was 12:00 (which that is what the TM says). It was a good pace, didn't feel fast. Weird. I've been concerned I won't be able to finish the Marathon in 6 hours which is the cut off. I am working on the negative thoughts... Running after work today, probably three miles.

Great to read the posts about shoes. I know I need a shoe with more support, wide toe box, some cushion. I have some I'm going to look at (Runners World had a great shoe guide insert a couple months back) that I have some that I'm going to look into. I'm wearing Brooks Ravenna right now, but I've had them a year, my feet are telling me it's time for a new pair.

Reinvent - I've never had a coach, but for my first couple of marathons, I pretty closely followed plans in books (now online). Galloway for my first (the old version of Galloway which has been tweaked a bit) and Higdon for my second. Since then, I've fiddled with them based on my schedule, but never used a coach. I did go back to fairly closely following a plan for my first ultra last year. My one word of advice, don't do your speed work on a treadmill. It is the only time in 20 years of running with 14 marathons, 36 halves, and 2 50 milers that I have injured myself running.

After this week, I'm planning to take a little time off, then I want to do some running in the two pairs of shoes I have gotten. One pair of Hokas and one pair of Altra zero drops. I have always run in the most cushioned neutral shoes available (over the years depending on model year, Asics Gel Nimbus, Nike Voomero, and now Brooks Glycerin), but those shoes seem to be harder to find/fit so I'm interested to try these two pairs as I lead up to a couple of half marathons in May.

Scubed- Which Altra's and which Hokas? I have the Torin, and have been wondering about the Hoka Bondi, their zero drop, but they seem so different. I like the cushioning in the Torins. Do you know how they compare to the Hoka's? I would love to try on a pair, but they are high end, and most stores don't stock them. Don't want to risk buying them online and not liking them. I might try them when Roadrunnersports has their big shoe sale, since then I can run in them and still return them if they don't work out. I've also heard they are sized differently. My Torins are a 9.5. Are both pairs of yours the same size? Thanks.

A guy at work here yesterday was going for a run in the Altra Olympus which are the hoka-like pair they recently released. They looked pretty nice and he spoke very highly of them... and he's an ultramarathoner.

Weird day schedule-wise today. I couldn't figure out when to fit a 3 mile run in that made any sense. I decided to try something bold and park at my martial arts class, take the class, then change into running gear and immediately run from the dojo out and back. At first I questioned my sanity as the first 0.5 miles were somewhat rough. But then I guess the magical purply gatorade kicked in or I just got acclimated because then my body went into turbo mode and I was running at 8:45-9:00min/mile during the run portion of my run/walk intervals. By the end I ended up under 11min/mile. Today was supposed to be an easy 3 mile day, and it felt easy, but still... kind of weird.

Similarly, yesterday was a 7 miler. I also was faster than anticipated for that and it felt easier.

Do I need to adjust my pace assumptions? I am thinking probably not because my long run was right around the target pace of 12:15.

Sunday will be (hopefully) the longest run of my life so far. I'm targeting 14 miles. The only potential snag is that the forecast currently calls for rain. I am not sure if I could last 3 hours in a downpour. At some point it would just be too much, I would think.

TAS-Thanks for the info. Just looked up the Olympus, and they seem like another shoe worth considering. I'm really not sure how I feel about more cushioning. I think I want it, but even Altra's own info warns about running form degradation and foot weakening from all the cushion. Wonder if I'll be able to try any of these at the Expo in Boston?

Isn't cushoning good for a running shoe? I know...loaded question, but for a newer runner - I thought a shoe with cushion/stability (not too much), is good. I'll post tomorrow what I'm thinking about. I left my RW magazine at home.

KKR, fore the NBMR10's and the Altra Instincts, I just ran my regular runs in them and experienced no soreness at all. The NBtrails and Vibrams hurt my feet almost immediately at a time when I walked the dog by running barefoot. It was a classic "why bother?". The Instincts are incredibly comfortable but made every run feel slow like the first run after a marathon even if the time was the same as any other shoes.

TAs, Unless I have lost weight without dieting, my experience is that running too fast is much more of a problem than running too slow. Lots of problems, injuries in training and death marches on race day, arise from not being as fast as you think you are. Try a bunch of shoes and buy a pair that feels great to you. I worry less about what kind of shoe they say it is than about how I feel running in them. Bad weather is great for your psyche. It makes you feel unstoppable!

18.5 mies @ 11:48. Agonized about my route, hoping to avoid hills all morning. Got out on the road and at about 1.2 miles looked at a big hill that I seldom climb, and decided to climb it. Wound up climbing 750' in the first 6+ miles, then rolled downhill to the river. Climbed 1150' overall. Ran the last 3 miles, more up than down @ 11:56.

Hello everyone! Stellar day. Went on an accidental 14 mile bike ride... I was already feeling pretty worn out today but got talked into riding to a river inlet which I thought would be 8 miles round trip. Took a different route home and ended up being way more than I expected. And to think that some of you ran that! Haha! I'll get there someday hopefully!

TPM- You're a beast! 18.5 with hills for days!? Kudos! I love days when you are dreading something, but then when you face them it's like: "bring it on!"... or: "eh, why not?" like it doesn't make sense why you dreaded it in the first place.

scubed- Excited for you and you're new shoes! Probably one of my favorite things =)

Shoes- Maybe I should have tried out the Flows. They sure did feel amazing! I just have a fear of hurting my feet more than I have. I feel like I have this abnormal landing point.. like a ball, sticking out in the middle of the balls of my feet. Definitely the cause of my morton's neroma as that's where the nerves are that started making my toes go numb. It's worried me even though I have insoles... which! make my new shoes (wave inspire 10s) feel like they mold to my feet! I haven't run high miles to see if my toes still go numb (usually happened after 7 miles) but I'm hoping it will be the cure!

Reinvent: Most runners are heel strikers and overpronate, so that's how most running shoes are designed. I am a midfoot striker who underpronates slightly. Most running shoes from back in the day made my "problem" worse, so I have learned a bit about shoes, My chi running training also teaches the too much shoe impacts your running form, in a negative way. Form is important to me because of the lack of cartilage in my knee. It may be less of a problem for the average runner.

However, these days there are loads of choices in shoes, with something for everyone. The problem is finding it. TPM is quite correct in saying that the most important thing is finding a shoe that is comfortable for you. Problem is lots of shoes feel good when you try them on and run across the store. Many do not feel quite so good after 3 miles, or 5 or 15. Buying a shoe that feels good in the store and running in them is the BEST test of how they will work for you, but it is a pretty expensive screening method. Being fitted at a running specialty store can help point you in the right direction. Once you have more experience with running and with shoes, you will be able to make better decisions going forward on your own. Too often people start running in whatever shoes, experience discomfort, and say they can't run, when all along they just needed the right shoes. And what the right shoes are varies. It is very individual. The perfect shoe for me might not be a good choice for you.

I like cushioning, but zero drop works best for me. Heel cushioning is a waste for me because I don't land on my heels.

Lindsey- I have what sounds like the same issue as you Lindsey: my toes (only on my right foot) go numb after about 7 miles. I have a custom orthotic, and my podiatrist placed a metatarsal pad on top of that , and it helped. However, it raises my foot up, so it makes my Pure Flows and Kinvaras tighter. I have found the Atra Torins to be the most comfortable, and they are pretty cushioned. I can't help but wonder if the Altra Olympus or the Hoka Bondi might be even more comfortable, but what I've read and learned over the years has caused me to question whether they might be too cushioned. There is only one way to find out, but I'm not ready for the $150 test yet.

Hi, All - Ran twice yesterday. 2 miles at lunch and 2.25 after lunch. I'm using my Ipod & my pace indicates under 9 minute mile. That is weird. TM over the winter states always over a 12 minute pace? I wonder which is correct? I don't feel like I'm running fast. It is flat terrain though.

I'm considering Brooks Transcent or Brooks Ravenna 5 for shoes. I run in Brooks Ravenna now & like them. Although, I'm noticing on my higher mileage days (don't laugh...I know 3-4 miles aren't high for you guys...but I'm new remember the top of my left foot seems strained. I'm not running today, since I have my first group run tomorrow. I want to get to every other day running & long run on Saturday. I'm using the Dave Whittseth plan "A Non-Runners Guide to Marathon Training". He is "was" a profession at a college in Northern Iowa that taught a Marathon class. The book he wrote very good. For beginnners. He covers mental/physical. I'm really enjoying the book. Basically, it's a 4 run day plan. He guarantees you will finish if you do the training. The Marathon is October 4. It's a 16 week program. Should I wait until June 1st to officially start the marathon program? Just train, rack up miles/endurance until then? Maybe run a 10k or 1/2? Sugesstions wanted!

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