So the toes down kick will get there quicker (and is pretty powerful anyway).

Is that really true? No matter which variant, you start off facing your opponent, and therefore the turn is part of both kicks. It's just in the Kawasoe variant, the angular velocity of the turn is added to the velocity generated by the muscles straightening the leg - or am I missing something here?

Geof

_________________Geof Smith(Of course you believe in free will, you have no choice.)

So the toes down kick will get there quicker (and is pretty powerful anyway).

Is that really true? No matter which variant, you start off facing your opponent, and therefore the turn is part of both kicks. It's just in the Kawasoe variant, the angular velocity of the turn is added to the velocity generated by the muscles straightening the leg - or am I missing something here?

Geof

I got this from my WTF Taekwondo coach, Valery Naidenov, who was technical director of the Bulgarian WTF Olympic Committee. He was fond of demonstrating how to counter a mawashi geri, by using the ushiro geri to come inside and knock the opponent off balance while still on one leg. It was from him that I also got the idea of the turn being a "switch", rather than a "spin".

I presume by "switch" you mean moving either the back or front leg across and using the leverage obtained to do a very fast hip-rotation. The question then becomes is this overall faster that a turn ?

Geof.

Sort of ... both feet need to be on the same line before the pivot, then when you do the "very fast hip rotation", the foot is already on the right line for the kick. It is one smooth movement: the step across often telegraphs that a back kick is coming.

The "both feet on the line" can be achieved surreptitiously by throwing a feint or putting the foot down in line after the previous technique. WTF Taekwondo has mant partner drills to work on this. This does leave you open to a sweep (not a factor in WTF competition - no sweeps allowed), but obviously you need to fire the kick off instantaneously to avoid the takedown. It's a tradeoff.

For 'the street', Jamie O'Keefe says in his book how he used this technique a few times. He would push the opponent away (usually into a wall) and as they came back at him he would use the turning back kick then to great effect.

_________________Andi Kidd

Few men are born brave; many become so through training and force of discipline - Publius Flavius Vegetius Renatus

For 'the street', Jamie O'Keefe says in his book how he used this technique a few times. He would push the opponent away (usually into a wall) and as they came back at him he would use the turning back kick then to great effect.

Yes it is very powerful. I can imagine that working well. It's also great without the turn, for someone coming up behind.

He was fond of demonstrating how to counter a mawashi geri, by using the ushiro geri to come inside and knock the opponent off balance while still on one leg. It was from him that I also got the idea of the turn being a "switch", rather than a "spin".

Tried this in the dojo last night and found it difficult to make it work effectively. Since you know what is coming the "tell" is obvious and you are really vulnerable with your back to your opponent who can easily switch off his mawash and attack anywhere on your back.

What was quite an effective use, was as a counter to a stepping in jodan oi-tsuki. Using a variant of jyu ippon number 4, defence against maegeri, you step in and across to the blind side of the oi-tsuki and then the knee of the now rear leg lifts as you turn to deliver the spinning yoko geri as I like to think of it.

Geof.

_________________Geof Smith(Of course you believe in free will, you have no choice.)

Sensei Enoeda used to teach both, depending on the target. His rationale was that you would have the toes pointing down if going for a large area, such as the stomach (ok, some stomachs are larger than others) , but to have the foot horizontal if going for the head (or a knee, I suppose) so that you have a better chance of striking the target with something.

_________________Dave PaineBefore you criticize someone, you should walk a mile in their shoes. That way when you criticize them, you are a mile away from them and you have their shoes.

Sensei Enoeda used to teach both, depending on the target. His rationale was that you would have the toes pointing down if going for a large area, such as the stomach (ok, some stomachs are larger than others) , but to have the foot horizontal if going for the head (or a knee, I suppose) so that you have a better chance of striking the target with something.

Interesting, my first sensei also trained under Enoeda and used to say the same thing but for Yoko geri kekomi not for the ushiro geri which was always foot down. When you think about it, the rationale makes sense for either kick.

Geof.

_________________Geof Smith(Of course you believe in free will, you have no choice.)

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