after having done both the dark and light versions of the story line... i have to say that what TSL needed was more story/content completion in general.

having said that, it is my opinion that: there would have been more to what was going on with the romance. it seems to be there right from the start.

when atton first meets the female pc the interaction is heavy with physical attraction comments and then when disciple is added in there is the addition of fear on attons part that the disciple might be of interest to the pc...

when you do it as a male, there are a lot of similar hints that they were working on it... mira interaction comes to mind where she says something to the effect of "don't you think i am a little young?" (sorry if that is off, has been a while since i did tsl) and other conversation with her about visas and handmaiden.

imo, there are even hints that queen talia is coming to love master kavar. or... the administrator and vrook even. (i know... i have a vivid imagination... what can i say)

it always seemed to me that there was a lot of intent to place that stuff into TSL, much in the spirit of all the SW material that is out there. it just never got into the finished product. just like most of the material after you return to duxn/onderon for the 2nd time, it is missing... LOTS! i felt like i had been dropped off a cliff. how can atton, disciple, handmaiden, visas or even mandalor express any feeling about the pc... when they for the most part never are available after that point.

anyway i risk getting off topic. suffice to say, i think that the main reason that there is not a well flushed out romance is that they were forced to push the product out the door before they were done. romance was one of the things that got left on the editing floor.

there were comments above about pg-13 and i agree it should stick to what seems to be the SW style of showing love and relationships. esp: the quandary of being a jedi with all these restrictions on that topic, and human nature being at odds with that.

also i agree that it should not be shoved down your throat. it would hint there was a path to further dialog, but you didn't have to take it. i know i would follow those paths, i like them. imo, there are many examples that this is the path that they would have taken anyways... it's the way they do a lot of the expansive dialog... you can tell the npc talking to "leave me alone" even, if you don't want to hear it.

Like many above posters, I was also disappointed with the romance in TSL. Even as a Male character. I was under the impression there was actually a romance plot with Handmaiden and Visas...but it was pathetic compared to the K1 plot!

after having done both the dark and light versions of the story line... i have to say that what TSL needed was more story/content completion in general.....
anyway i risk getting off topic. suffice to say, i think that the main reason that there is not a well flushed out romance is that they were forced to push the product out the door before they were done. romance was one of the things that got left on the editing floor.

No. The romance options are fine the way they are. To put in more would be to detract from the importance of the story. We need more emphasis on your party members than in KotOR II, (especially in Bao-Dur and Canderous), but putting in more romance would be a distraction from the story of the Jedi and Sith, which is far more important. We need to keep the story aimed in one direction so the climax can be more powerful. In KotOR I, i felt that the real climax was facing Bastilla in the Rakatan Temple. In KotOR II, I found that the climax was heading to Dantooine for the second time. We need to aim the climax to be the end of the game this time.

"Everything I tell you is a lie. Every question I ask you is a trick. You will find no truth in me."
―Vergere to Jacen Solo

No. The romance options are fine the way they are. To put in more would be to detract from the importance of the story. We need more emphasis on your party members than in KotOR II, (especially in Bao-Dur and Canderous), but putting in more romance would be a distraction from the story of the Jedi and Sith, which is far more important. We need to keep the story aimed in one direction so the climax can be more powerful. In KotOR I, i felt that the real climax was facing Bastilla in the Rakatan Temple. In KotOR II, I found that the climax was heading to Dantooine for the second time. We need to aim the climax to be the end of the game this time.

That's why I think the romance should be optional. If someone doesn't want to take part in the romance, that's fine, but if they do, then they have the choice to.

The problem with the romance of TSL, in my opinion, was not because there wasn't "enough", but because it wasn't well done. Obviously, there was some tension between Atton and Mical, but all they ever did was argue once and it was over. Atton had a few remarks that he only makes if the Exile is female, but that's about it.

If the Exile was male, then you really never had any romantic options with any of them except for a slight reference with Visas - that line before you go to the Ravager, "Then let us look upon each other." With Brianna, the only instance you got was, "For a moment, I though I had lost you." And even that is hardly a "romantic" line. With Mira, there is absolutely nothing. You might be able to make a suggestion to her, but she promptly rejects you.

That's just not very good writing, in my opinion. Obsidian did great on everything else except for the romance options. That's why I hope they either don't put any romance in at all and just focus on the story, or they really improve drastically between now and whenever they might be developing it. That is, assuming Obsidian would be making it.

Well, Brianna is created in a really non-romantic way for a reason. Basically you can have all the physical intimacy you want with it, sparring like crazy and what not, but there is few, if any, mental exchange.

Visas on the other hand, gets really intimate with you mentally. Problem about Visas is that everything that is to be done with her can be done in less than 5 minutes, and that kinda takes away the fun of it.

Yeah more romance, more guns, more sexyness, better characters, much more violance...a lot more. They should combine tones of violance and romance in the sith way of life. Much more darkness...yes darkness I AM DARKNESS...I AM SHADOW...I AM THE ARCHITECT OF YOUR DISTRUCTION!

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Romances in RPG's are a necessity; afterall art reflects life. Love, hate, vengeance, compassion, violence, forgiveness, betrayal, redemption, these are the foundations upon which great dramas are made, regardless of the genre. I can't imagine playing a RPG that is solely composed of quests, killing, mission dialogue, leveling up...*yawn* boredom. I like my characters to be emotionally well rounded, conflicted; a reluctant hero or heroine. I can relate to them better and therefore feel more immersed in the game. Give me flirting, give me romantic dialogue, oh and a little kiss or hug will be nice before I risk my asterick saving all mankind from destruction.

Given how jedi are not supposed to be in relationships, it's already pretty silly that both of the protagonists of the KotOR games were...

I agree to some extent. However, they had teasers of romance in K2, which is what people really didn't like. For me, it's really an all-or-nothing idea. For example, in K3 you should have to option to romance with some party members and get a genuine romance going on. If you don't start it, they could start it and make the advances on you, and if you wanted to be a Jedi-style character you could flatly reject them. Thats the end of that, then they're just normal party members again.

Basically, I want the option to be there, so you can choose to have romances or disregard it entirely.

Given how jedi are not supposed to be in relationships, it's already pretty silly that both of the protagonists of the KotOR games were...

If jedi aren't suppose to be in relationships, romantic or otherwise, how does the force continue to propagate? Where do all those force sensitive children come from? Are force sensitive beings merely reincarnations? Is the force something that pops-up at puberty like acne?

Relationships are a given in any species. I think Jolee Bindo had the proper perspective on Jedi and love...love isn't necessarily a bad emotion for jedi to feel, its how the jedi chooses to react to the mindfield of feelings love can trigger.

Put the romance option in the game as a selectable option...choose it like you would the gender of the playable character. Make it tasteful, well written, an optional side quest if need be, just let it be.

Romances in RPG's are a necessity; afterall art reflects life. Love, hate, vengeance, compassion, violence, forgiveness, betrayal, redemption, these are the foundations upon which great dramas are made, regardless of the genre. I can't imagine playing a RPG that is solely composed of quests, killing, mission dialogue, leveling up...*yawn* boredom. I like my characters to be emotionally well rounded, conflicted; a reluctant hero or heroine. I can relate to them better and therefore feel more immersed in the game. Give me flirting, give me romantic dialogue, oh and a little kiss or hug will be nice before I risk my asterick saving all mankind from destruction.

I disagree. There is no romance in the first Gothic game (in fact, hardly any women at all), and it's still a fine RPG.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jade shiseido

If jedi aren't suppose to be in relationships, romantic or otherwise, how does the force continue to propagate? Where do all those force sensitive children come from? Are force sensitive beings merely reincarnations? Is the force something that pops-up at puberty like acne?

The force is a fact of life in Star Wars, and children will always be born force sensitive to some degree. Look at Bastila and Anakin Skywalker. None of their parents (only mother in Anakin's case) were force sensitive. Yet Bastila had powerful and unique Battle Meditation abilities even though none of her parents were force sensitive. So it's not as if the galaxy is going to run dry of force sensitives if jedi don't have children.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jade shiseido

Relationships are a given in any species. I think Jolee Bindo had the proper perspective on Jedi and love...love isn't necessarily a bad emotion for jedi to feel, its how the jedi chooses to react to the mindfield of feelings love can trigger.

I'm not going to argue whether relationships are reasonable or not. I'm just stating that it is, for whatever reason, frowned upon in the KotOR era and that the games really should reflect that. So far they have gone to great lengths to establish it only to then promptly ignore it, and that is frankly quite annoying.

"It is all that is left unsaid upon which tragedies are built" - Kreia

^ The idea of and RPG in the Star Wars universe is that you choose whether or not your character has a love interest; cutting it out seems a little extreme. Many players won't even choose to be Jedi at all. Restricting this option is not to far from restricting Darkside choices, because Jedi wouldn't do those either.

Maybe if people are that bothered by this option, the love stories should be implemented so you make the first move. At least that way people playing straight-Jedi-style can bypass any mention of Romance completely.

The idea of and RPG in the Star Wars universe is that you choose whether or not your character has a love interest; cutting it out seems a little extreme. Many players won't even choose to be Jedi at all.

Uhm... So far you haven't had that choice at all, since you were a jedi whether you liked it or not. Unless you decided not to buy the game, that is...

Quote:

Originally Posted by Henz

Maybe if people are that bothered by this option, the love stories should be implemented so you make the first move. At least that way people playing straight-Jedi-style can bypass any mention of Romance completely.

The problem with that is that you just then ignore a part of the game without getting anything in return. And so of course we're going to explore it - not necessarily because we're interested, but simply because we're curious about what the game has to offer. I mean, if romance is a bonus only, then why would I not choose it? The only way that would have appeal is if you must abandon love for some greater good. That could be cool, but I doubt it's going to happen, since people are going to cry foul that they actually have to choose between romance and saving the galaxy and can't have both.

Besides, the real problem with romance in KotOR is how it's handled in TSL. I usually prefer TSL over KotOR, but it's definitely better in KotOR, especially if you're playing Revan as male, because you can save Bastila by letting the great and almighty Revan be vulnerable and admit his love for her. In short, it was significant in the plot and proved Jolee's point that "love will save you every time." I accepted it in KotOR for that reason alone. In TSL, however, it has no significance to the plot - at best it matters in the Atris-Handmaiden subplot if the exile is male - and so it is pointless and without resolution.

"It is all that is left unsaid upon which tragedies are built" - Kreia

Uhm... So far you haven't had that choice at all, since you were a jedi whether you liked it or not. Unless you decided not to buy the game, that is...

Well okay, but the choice to be an unconventional one is there at least. An unconventional Jedi with a love interest should still be an option if somone wants to play that way.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jediphile

The problem with that is that you just then ignore a part of the game without getting anything in return. And so of course we're going to explore it - not necessarily because we're interested, but simply because we're curious about what the game has to offer. I mean, if romance is a bonus only, then why would I not choose it? The only way that would have appeal is if you must abandon love for some greater good. That could be cool, but I doubt it's going to happen, since people are going to cry foul that they actually have to choose between romance and saving the galaxy and can't have both.

But you don't want romance at all..? The optional love story should be a bonus to those who further test the limits of gameplay. Again I state if people don't want to play the loe story out then they shouldn't opt for the romantic dialogue options.
Ramifications could be implemented to this bonus plot too. A party member could die, but die with different levels of heartbreak depending on how close you became. People will cry foul about anything really though wont they?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jediphile

Besides, the real problem with romance in KotOR is how it's handled in TSL. I usually prefer TSL over KotOR, but it's definitely better in KotOR, especially if you're playing Revan as male, because you can save Bastila by letting the great and almighty Revan be vulnerable and admit his love for her. In short, it was significant in the plot and proved Jolee's point that "love will save you every time." I accepted it in KotOR for that reason alone. In TSL, however, it has no significance to the plot - at best it matters in the Atris-Handmaiden subplot if the exile is male - and so it is pointless and without resolution.

I agree the KOTOR romance was much better handled, but we both know TSL had at least a slightly more satisfactory ending at some point before it was cut. Atton's death, and the party members turning on eachother.

My whole issue with the star wars games, genre really, is this, its okay for a jedi to kill but not to love!?! Yes, ideally its preferred if a jedi can redeem, but killing is "approved" if a conversion doesn't occur. To me the jedi aren't that an emotionally armored group of individuals...what, the threat of a mere kiss and they fall to the dark side, but force push an opponent into oblivion and no emotional repercussions occur whatsoever?

Violence in video games is the accepted standard, but add a little love dialogue between characters and suddenly the threat to jedidom reveals itself. Maybe the sith are going about things the wrong way, they should try galactic domination with the aid of Hallmark, FTD, and Barry White.

But you don't want romance at all..? The optional love story should be a bonus to those who further test the limits of gameplay. Again I state if people don't want to play the loe story out then they shouldn't opt for the romantic dialogue options.
Ramifications could be implemented to this bonus plot too. A party member could die, but die with different levels of heartbreak depending on how close you became. People will cry foul about anything really though wont they?

The point is that not choosing explore the romance gives you nothing in return. You just lose out on a part of the game and that's it - the only difference lies in how much of the game you want to see and nothing else, and if you do choose love, then it never costs you anything - it only gives you options that are otherwise not there. It should be the other way around, because love in the real world often means compromising and making sacrifices. If the developers don't want that, then fine, only drop the romance stuff...

Quote:

Originally Posted by Henz

I agree the KOTOR romance was much better handled, but we both know TSL had at least a slightly more satisfactory ending at some point before it was cut. Atton's death, and the party members turning on eachother.

True, but it was still not significant in the plot. I mean, none of the exile's choices are going to be different due to any of the love interests, so what do they matter? They still wouldn't have mattered when you meet Kreia, and they still wouldn't have changed how the game ends - it was only a question of how many of them survived the game and nothing else.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jade shiseido

My whole issue with the star wars games, genre really, is this, its okay for a jedi to kill but not to love!?! Yes, ideally its preferred if a jedi can redeem, but killing is "approved" if a conversion doesn't occur. To me the jedi aren't that an emotionally armored group of individuals...what, the threat of a mere kiss and they fall to the dark side, but force push an opponent into oblivion and no emotional repercussions occur whatsoever?

Violence in video games is the accepted standard, but add a little love dialogue between characters and suddenly the threat to jedidom reveals itself. Maybe the sith are going about things the wrong way, they should try galactic domination with the aid of Hallmark, FTD, and Barry White.

Given what people have been willing to do out of love throughout history, I do think the jedi are correct in their concerns. Now, I'm not saying they're right, mind you, just that their concerns are not invalid. I mean, just look what love for Helen of Troy turned into...

"It is all that is left unsaid upon which tragedies are built" - Kreia

Given what people have been willing to do out of love throughout history, I do think the jedi are correct in their concerns. Now, I'm not saying they're right, mind you, just that their concerns are not invalid. I mean, just look what love for Helen of Troy turned into...

Dang Trojans and their four legged boobietraps. Not sure if I'd define the impetus for the Trojan war as love, more like lust and envy, and a lack of good looking women. But a war of love...now where do I sign-up.

Jedi aren't necessaqrily celibate. It's attachment that's a no no (and here's where I make cracks about the higher-end Coruscant brothels having a 10% discount upon proof of lightsaber).

As for breeding stock, that's what the Service Corps (washouts) are for. The Service Corps types have the Force Sensitivity, but for one reason or another don't make the cut. Mical, for example, would be Service Corps. And take Kreia's description of Telos - a planet where those who failed at being Jedi were sent to become farmers and laborers. This is likely why Revan wanted the planet. Even those who've failed to achieve Padawan rank still have the raw material, and if you twist it just enough to make them question the Jedi's motives in passing them up? BOOM! Sith really can grow on trees.

Force sensitivity is possibly much more common than admitted to, perhaps everyone is to a degree. Granted, the average person has a Force connection of a 14.4 modem while a Jedi's got a T1 line. Of course, something like that could create massive social chaos if word got out.

^ The idea of and RPG in the Star Wars universe is that you choose whether or not your character has a love interest; cutting it out seems a little extreme.

I agree.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Henz

Many players won't even choose to be Jedi at all. Restricting this option is not to far from restricting Darkside choices, because Jedi wouldn't do those either.

Hmm... I think people play the game to get the Force option. I certainly did. It is called Knights of the Old Republic, after all...

Quote:

Originally Posted by Henz

Maybe if people are that bothered by this option, the love stories should be implemented so you make the first move. At least that way people playing straight-Jedi-style can bypass any mention of Romance completely.

Agree again.

In my opinion, the best option would be a small twist on the KOTOR I one.

Have a male and a female NPC and you can choose whether or not to pursue a romance option with either of them. A variation on that would be with an Influence system, where options you make with one reflect on your relationship with the other one. But it's all optional. If you don't want a romance in your game, don't click those speech options. Easy.

We don't want it graphic. I felt the level in KOTOR I was just right. The love is expressed in the dialogue. That's fine.

I felt (maybe I'm just crazy *shrug* ) that the romance of my PC with Bastila in KOTOR was the main reason that she went up to the Star Forge to save Bastila rather than do the easy thing and just kill her.

Also, the fact that the romance was independent of the Light-Side/Dark-Side choice of my character was a nice touch.

I felt (maybe I'm just crazy *shrug* ) that the romance of my PC with Bastila in KOTOR was the main reason that she went up to the Star Forge to save Bastila rather than do the easy thing and just kill her.

That's what I liked about the romance in K1, it would tie into the story in some way. You could specifically, in dialogue, reference love to get her to turn back. The small bit of romance in K2 really had no effect on the outcome of the storyline. If they could get that same effect the K1 romance had in K3, it would be great.

That's what I liked about the romance in K1, it would tie into the story in some way. You could specifically, in dialogue, reference love to get her to turn back.

But you didn't have to. That's what made it such a brilliant game. You can redeem Bastila without the romance subplot if you don't like it. It wasn't just tacked on for the hell of it, it had real outcomes, but they weren't essential to get a "successful" ending (however you define success).

This is what I want for KOTOR III. A chance for romance if the players want it, with noticeable differences on the outcome, but not making it an essential choice for the player.

But you didn't have to. That's what made it such a brilliant game. You can redeem Bastila without the romance subplot if you don't like it. It wasn't just tacked on for the hell of it, it had real outcomes, but they weren't essential to get a "successful" ending (however you define success).

This is what I want for KOTOR III. A chance for romance if the players want it, with noticeable differences on the outcome, but not making it an essential choice for the player.

Perfect, I had forgotten to include that. It was indeed possible to redeem Bastila without the love plot, but much much harder. Possible, just a big pain in the rear. K3 romances would not be obnoxious and game-ruining if they kept it to something like that.

What really got me was in K2 all the sexual references (really, it seemed they were everywhere you looked) and yet the romance sub-plots were nearly non-existant. Compare that to the complete lack of sexual references in K1 and it's almost like the developers went to the opposite extreme with K2.

To Jediphile, I agree love interests should play a more serious role in the gameplay, sacrifices etc. So would you rather a well done love story or none at all in this game?

Well done plot will be my choice in any story any time.

If it really matters to the plot, then why not. Worked reasonably well for LSM Revan in K1, I thought.

I guess I'm just tired of the sermon about how jedi cannot have attachments left and right only to have a romance option thrown in my face five seconds later. Especially if that romance option doesn't really go anywhere.

It could be interesting to put the pc in Anakin's position, where you have to abandon love to avoid falling to the dark side. I mean, we all know Anakin did bad, but would we really have chosen differently and left Padme to die? It's so easy to condemn Anakin, when we haven't faced that choice ourselves AND can look at his choice with knowledge of what the outcome of the choice will be.

Could be interesting to have a situation, where you actually have to let your love interest die to save the galaxy, but then I doubt Star Wars will dare to go there.

"It is all that is left unsaid upon which tragedies are built" - Kreia

Given how jedi are not supposed to be in relationships, it's already pretty silly that both of the protagonists of the KotOR games were...

That doesn't mean they can't break the rules. Neither Revan nor the Exile had a Jedi Master keeping an eye on them; they were on their own. Plus, the Exile wasn't even a Jedi, he/she was kicked out of the order, and was just regaining his/her powers as time went on.

"There is something going on in time and space, and beyond time and space, which, whether we like it or not, spells duty." -Winston Churchill

"For of all sad words of tongue or pen, The saddest are these: 'It might have been!'" -John Whittier

That doesn't mean they can't break the rules. Neither Revan nor the Exile had a Jedi Master keeping an eye on them; they were on their own. Plus, the Exile wasn't even a Jedi, he/she was kicked out of the order, and was just regaining his/her powers as time went on.

Uhm... Exile had Kreia, and she seemed more adamant about it than most jedi masters do - "charging up the loading ramp" ring a bell?

As for Revan, Bastila was feeding him a sermon about it every two seconds. He got around that by playing teacher's pet

"It is all that is left unsaid upon which tragedies are built" - Kreia

I think KOTOR III should have more romance, but like others have said be given the option to pursue it or not. As for me I was LSM Revan and Exile. And with the exile I'd mostly lean towards Visas. The Handmaiden just kinda annoyed me alittle.

I don't think romance belongs in the main plot of the game, unless it's used as an option for redeeming someone, as it was in K1 on the Star Forge. Romance seems to just fit better as a nice little side - um... quest? Maybe a side "bonus" would be a better way to put it.

I'd like to see in a Star Wars game the characters, doesn't have to be your character but a couple to show that they do love each other, big time. Nothing crude of course but they've always taken a rather coy approach to this. I'd really want to see this change.

Well, Last think we need is a couple of your teammates making loud noices at th sick bay charging up the loading ramp, or the engine room locked and unavailable sice the wookiee and the hutt is pulling a bindo...

No, if there is romance, leave it to the pc. Granted, All Luke get in OT is droid...

No, nothing like that, in fact nothing that even needs to push any envelopes. Leave that to Mira. But for the characters, I dunno, Carth and Revan for example, to show their love and affection for each other every chance they get, that'd be neat. If we went with this scenario in particular for example then we would really get a sense for Carth's loss, or Bastila's loss. Sure, we're told about it, but to be actually shown it would really drive the point home.

Kreia didn't love the Exile, she said 'i love you' at the end in a sick twisted sort of way lol, i don't think someone of her age would fall in love trance with a young stallion of a jedi.

I was talking about her adherence to the principle that the exile cannot take anyone he/she loves into the unknown regions. The "charging up the loading ramp" is a reference to a romance between male Exile and Visas. I did not mean to imply a relationship of that sort between Kreia and the exile in any way.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nancy Allen``

No, nothing like that, in fact nothing that even needs to push any envelopes. Leave that to Mira. But for the characters, I dunno, Carth and Revan for example, to show their love and affection for each other every chance they get, that'd be neat. If we went with this scenario in particular for example then we would really get a sense for Carth's loss, or Bastila's loss. Sure, we're told about it, but to be actually shown it would really drive the point home.

Actually, I wanted an ending where Revan committed to his/her relationship with Bastila/Carth depending on gender, assuming Revan is LS. I'm not big on the mushy stuff, but since the love relationship for Revan is so firmly established, I think it should be played out for that character. Besides, I think Revan has been through too much to truly recover from it now.

"It is all that is left unsaid upon which tragedies are built" - Kreia

TSL did lack romance, but you're forgetting that spicy scene with Exile and Visas...meditating...^_^ But on a serious note, A good example romance wise would be something like the original SW trilogy between Han and Leia. It was completely PG-13 and well done.

Yesterday is history. Tomorrow, a mystery. Today is a gift...that is why it is called the present.

I don't think romance belongs in the main plot of the game, unless it's used as an option for redeeming someone, as it was in K1 on the Star Forge. Romance seems to just fit better as a nice little side - um... quest? Maybe a side "bonus" would be a better way to put it.

I totally agree. Bastila and Revan romance wasn't forced, and it was great. Atton and the Exile's romance wasn't even a option.... it wasn't even there. Romance can help with any story, especially in Star Wars.