So the thing is, the system is broken. Agriculture, I mean. Our food isn't safe, not even produce (honestly, I have to say I've heard more about E. coli outbreaks from vegetables lately than from actual meat) and we sacrifice the health and safety of both consumers and workers with the current system.

It sucks for all concerned.

The reason it doesn't change is because people who are most affected do not have the right to vote. It's these sort of protections that are afforded people by legal immigration and actual citizenship. It's a self-perpetuating cycle, one that should not be allowed to continue.

Nothing changes because the government has no wish for it to change. It turns a blind eye to illegal immigration, ok it has raids etc but it knows these have little real effect. Why? Why indeed it could be said that it means cheap food is available, cheap gardeners, child nursesí etc.

So if the government really wanted to stop illegal workers then it would seriously go for the employers. Do a raid check the workers, any illegal workers then say 35% of all your assets are now the property of Uncle Sam. So that nice gardener who does your garden so cheaply could cost you a third of everything you worked for. How long before illegal workers could just not find work anywhere?

Some would argue that they are doing jobs no American would do, mainly because the pay is so poor. But if farmers for example cannot get workers at the current low pay of X then they would have to increase the wages until people would work for them. Basic market forces.

Ok so it means food prices have to rise etc, but is it not a price worth paying?

Some would argue that they are doing jobs no American would do, mainly because the pay is so poor. But if farmers for example cannot get workers at the current low pay of X then they would have to increase the wages until people would work for them. Basic market forces.

Yes I snipped the quote to get the portion I wanted. :)

This I think is a self-perpetuating cycle. Legal citizens don't want to work for formers that basically pay slave wages and farmers don't want to pay more than what they are already paying. It sets up a system in which people say that no citizenw ill do the job and that they "need" the illegals to them or it won't get done. In truth, I don't think there is a job out there that some legal citizen won't do, but no one is going to do it for a wage so low they can't afford to buy that cool new video game they want, much less trying to sustain an independent and productive life on your own. It's sort of a catch 22 really.

The point grovercjuk made was that those slave-level wages would have to rise if there were suddenly no workers willing to take them, and employers couldn't afford the risk of hiring illegal workers.

I understand that. I was actually agreeing with him as well, just further expanding on why those wages are so low. They will remain that low until the farmers stop using illegals like slaves to work the fields.

I'd be all for expanding work visas for people that want to work here and send money home. They'd make a better wage that way than by just being here illegally and having to take whatever scraps people willing to hire them will throw them.

I think one of the problems is everyone wants a high paying glamorous job. There are people who refuse to work at a fast food restaurant because flipping burgers is beneath them. I've seen interviews with people on talk shows, have heard people make fun of fast food workers at gatherings, and have seen the looks my boyfriend gets when he tells people he works at McDonalds. My mother thinks he's a bum for working such a job.

And being out in the hot sun twelve hours a day picking vegetables is considered even worse than fast food. I seriously doubt any farmer would pay more than the minimum wage for their state for back breaking work in the heat. Somehow I don't see people lining up for those jobs. Everyone wants to go to college and get a degree.

There is one aspect that confuses me about the argument "Illegal immigrants get page slave wages..."

Which is that they're coming here risking life and limb...to get paid those slave wages. Which implies that the wages they're getting paid back home are even lower than our slave wages. (And, by the way, Mexico is actually a reasonably affluent country as the developing world is concerned)

So if you have a humanitarian interest in these people the solution is not "stop illegal immigration," right?

There is one aspect that confuses me about the argument "Illegal immigrants get page slave wages..."

Which is that they're coming here risking life and limb...to get paid those slave wages. Which implies that the wages they're getting paid back home are even lower than our slave wages. (And, by the way, Mexico is actually a reasonably affluent country as the developing world is concerned)

So if you have a humanitarian interest in these people the solution is not "stop illegal immigration," right?

I think you can have a humanitarian interest in these people and still say "stop illegal immigration". I have no problem with demanding the feds actually do their damned job where our borders are concerned. However, I wouldn't mind seeing something like a work visa program put into place for those people that come here as migrant labor, letting us keep track of them and ensuring that they get a better wage (as a legal alien they'd be legally entitled to it) as well as the peace of not having to worry they are going to be caught and deported.

However, I wouldn't mind seeing something like a work visa program put into place for those people that come here as migrant labor, letting us keep track of them and ensuring that they get a better wage (as a legal alien they'd be legally entitled to it) as well as the peace of not having to worry they are going to be caught and deported.

First, there would be a lot of opposition to general amnesty (as there was in the past) and going forward there would be a lot of opposition to increasing the number of visas allowed.

At the same time, the advantage illegal immigrants have in the US is that they don't have to get paid minimum wage - businesses can hire them for much less than that (but still more than they would get paid in their home countries). If there were well-enforced legal requirements that they be paid minimum wage, there would be much less reason for businesses to hire them, so they'd probably just stay back home taking the local wage.

The low price of food in America is a very artificial low and can only be accomplished by measures that abuse the workers - not to mention animals and natural land resources. Unfortunately, demand for cheap food is so high, even among those who can afford fair prices, that it will not change any time soon.

They grow a lot of tomatoes pretty close to me, and they hire immigrant workers they know are illegals to pick them with promise of payment at the end of the harvest. The farmer waits until the harvest is 95% complete and then he calls I.N.S. in on the workers. It happens pretty often around here.

The price of /all/ food isn't truly kept artificially low when you consider the total effect of laws regarding agriculture in the United States, even if you take into account the illegal immigrant situation. It is true that if all we did was close the border and deport all of the illegals, food prices would probably rise substantially. But if you couple that change with a shift in cultural attitudes regarding Genetically Modified Crops (as well as a few other advances that we've been putting off regarding automation), you can probably recooperate the lost productivity in technological advancements and keep prices relatively stable.

Of course, the question remains (that actually pertains to the subject matter at hand), will getting these illegal aliens off of the farm employ a significant number of Americans? I suspect, no, it will not. I doubt very many Americans would be eager to uproot themselves from their home to go live in the country and earn a meager living in hard labor which isn't even a year round job (thus is profoundly lacking in job security).

The truth is, illegal aliens don't really do skilled labor. If you're worried about competing with them, get an education. You don't have to go to college necessarily; just learn a trade. That should be something anyone is capable of, and it will pay far better and be much more rewarding besides.

I just don't buy that removing illegal aliens from our workforce will do anything but raise prices (if nothing else is done) on goods and services we buy here. Maybe some good paying jobs would be created in the process, but if prices go up, everyone who's already employed currently and barely making it, or living on a fixed income, gets screwed big time.

p.s. I think we actually have access to the most stable and safe food supply that human beings have ever had. It's easy to think that the opposite is true if you pay attention to headlines, but that's more of a side-effect of living in the information age of paranoia than anything else. I've certainly never seen even a single study or statistic that points to the notion that our food is dangerous. Sure we have health problems, but obesity is not a function of a tainted food supply and what a lot of people often point to--the surfacing of allergies--has actually been shown to be a positive thing in all likelihood (recent studies indicate that there's a lower incidence of cancer in people who have allergies).

If our food supply was so dangerous, or life expectancy would definitely not be as high as it is.

Jude, I can agree with much your post provisionally. (Assuming the GM argument holds water; not so versed in that part.) I'm not so sure about the closing on food security. I don't think it lines up neatly with the earlier assertion that, "we actually have access to the most stable and safe food supply that human beings have ever had."

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If our food supply was so dangerous, or life expectancy would definitely not be as high as it is.

Depends on your point of reference. If you Google life expectancy by country, there are a few lists where the US comes in between 45th-50th. It's also possible to argue that the difference with other countries is due to the nature of the food industry itself. The desire for high sugars and cholesterol may originate with the suppliers and packaging/advertising. It's also more difficult to get consistent nutrition on a working class income.

Jude, I can agree with much your post provisionally. (Assuming the GM argument holds water; not so versed in that part.) I'm not so sure about the closing on food security. I don't think it lines up neatly with the earlier assertion that, "we actually have access to the most stable and safe food supply that human beings have ever had." Depends on your point of reference. If you Google life expectancy by country, there are a few lists where the US comes in between 45th-50th. It's also possible to argue that the difference with other countries is due to the nature of the food industry itself. The desire for high sugars and cholesterol may originate with the suppliers and packaging/advertising. It's also more difficult to get consistent nutrition on a working class income.

Modern Life spans, even with fats, oils, sugars, etc, etc, is nearly triple then it has been any other time in history.

Or that we've come to be too reliant on modern convenience, and therefore do not exercise enough? It's certainly not established that food is responsible for our health problems over other kinds of behavior.

Abundance of food is the real problem, but it's a good problem to have. Genetically we're kind of designed to be gluttons because eating as much as you can while you can was a good way to stay alive when there was an inconsistent supply. Getting fat is simply the body's way of storing up for inevitable famine; the problem is, that never happens anymore. As a species, we need to adjust to the modern reality of abundance.