Any “posted” buildings, a building is posted if it is:
Posted in a conspicuous location accessible to the general public and immediately adjacent to the liquor license posted on the licensed premises.
Contain a pictogram that shows a firearm within a red circle and a diagonal red line across the firearm.
Contain the words, "no firearms allowed pursuant to A.R.S. section 4-229".

Any “posted” buildings, a building is posted if it is:
Posted in a conspicuous location accessible to the general public and immediately adjacent to the liquor license posted on the licensed premises.
Contain a pictogram that shows a firearm within a red circle and a diagonal red line across the firearm.
Contain the words, "no firearms allowed pursuant to A.R.S. section 4-229".

I would recommend getting the CCW app for your phone

I have it, just not real great at reading comprehension of 'lawyer speak'. Wow, so that looks like it limits a lot of eating establishments in Phoenix...

I don't typically like chain restaurants, but when out there for work I like to join in on where everyone happens to be going...

Can someone refresh me on the rules in AZ for CCW holder, when a business has the ‘NO FIREARMS’ sign posted? I have noticed that a lot if not most chain restaurants around Phoenix have these posted on or near the entry door. Must you disarm to legally enter? or is carry inside fine, and just must leave if told to do so by management?

I have yet to find any exemption for CCW for private establishments, similar to how public events/places need to offer secure storage is they disallow firearms.

Correct... No exemption for CCW, however, continue reading to the "affirmative defense" list.
One of several "affirmative defenses" is if you are not a resident of AZ at the time of the trespass.
Another has to do with how long the sign has been posted... basically, the validity of the sign does not take effect for 30 or 60 days (it's been a while since I read it)... This keeps someone from getting pinched when they are a regular patron and legally carried "yesterday"

BUT.... and yes, it's a big butt....
"Affirmative Defense" means just that. It means you are still arrested, arraigned, and possibly scheduled for trial unless the DA tosses the case due to the affirmative defense.
It's possibly a "stay out of prison" card, but it is not a "get out of jail free" card and it's not guaranteed that the defense will be accepted.
Even as a non-resident, if the DA goes through your social media history and sees that you have visited the Roadkill Cafe twice a year for the last 5 years, and you've previously posted pictures of the "no guns" sign, you're going to have a hard time.

__________________
- Rich

Quote:

Originally Posted by dantodd

A just government will not be overthrown by force or violence because the people have no incentive to overthrow a just government. If a small minority of people attempt such an insurrection to grab power and enslave the people, the RKBA of the whole is our insurance against their success.

A. A person may carry a concealed handgun on the premises of a licensee who is an on-sale retailer unless the licensee posts a sign that clearly prohibits the possession of weapons on the licensed premises. The sign shall conform to the following requirements:
1. Be posted in a conspicuous location accessible to the general public and immediately adjacent to the liquor license posted on the licensed premises.
2. Contain a pictogram that shows a firearm within a red circle and a diagonal red line across the firearm.
3. Contain the words, "no firearms allowed pursuant to A.R.S. section 4-229".
B. A person shall not carry a firearm on the licensed premises of an on-sale retailer if the licensee has posted the notice prescribed in subsection A of this section.
C. It is an affirmative defense to a violation of subsection B of this section if:
1. The person was not informed of the notice prescribed in subsection A of this section before the violation.
2. Any one or more of the following apply:
(a) At the time of the violation the notice prescribed in subsection A of this section had fallen down.
(b) At the time of the violation the person was not a resident of this state.
(c) The licensee had posted the notice prescribed in subsection A of this section not more than thirty days before the violation.
D. The department of liquor licenses and control shall prepare the signs required by this section and make them available at no cost to licensees.
E. The signs required by this section shall be composed of block, capital letters printed in black on white laminated paper at a minimum weight of one hundred ten pound index. The lettering and pictogram shall consume a space at least six inches by nine inches. The letters constituting the words "no firearms allowed" shall be at least three-fourths of a vertical inch and all other letters shall be at least one-half of a vertical inch. Nothing shall prohibit a licensee from posting additional signs at one or more locations on the premises.
F. This section does not prohibit a person who possesses a handgun from entering the licensed premises for a limited time for the specific purpose of either:
1. Seeking emergency aid.
2. Determining whether a sign has been posted pursuant to subsection A of this section.

Note that there are specific requirements for the sign itself.
A simple "no guns allowed" sign is not sufficient. It must have a pictogram, red circle and slash, and cite 4-229

To my recollection, the one on the door to the Roadkill Cafe was just a black laser printed sheet, no red. Last time I was there, the front door did not have one. I saw one on the rear door when I used the restroom... the sign was on outside and just taped to the glass.

I would say, though it is not worded specifically, but due to the separation, that both 1 and 2 must be the case, i.e. 2 is satisfied by not being a resident, however, having seen the sign, 1 is not satisfied since the sign itself and/or my knowledge of the sign serve as notice.

Assuming it is a legal sign in the first place.

__________________
- Rich

Quote:

Originally Posted by dantodd

A just government will not be overthrown by force or violence because the people have no incentive to overthrow a just government. If a small minority of people attempt such an insurrection to grab power and enslave the people, the RKBA of the whole is our insurance against their success.

But that is specific to places that sell alcohol is it not? So a hardware store or tire shop or department store are still off limits if posted.

From 4-101:

Quote:

25. "On-sale retailer" means any person operating an establishment where spirituous liquors are sold in the original container for consumption on or off the premises or in individual portions for consumption on the premises.

From 4-229:

Quote:

A. A person may carry a concealed handgun on the premises of a licensee who is an on-sale retailer unless the licensee posts a sign that clearly prohibits the possession of weapons on the licensed premises. The sign shall conform to the following requirements:
1. Be posted in a conspicuous location accessible to the general public and immediately adjacent to the liquor license posted on the licensed premises.
2. Contain a pictogram that shows a firearm within a red circle and a diagonal red line across the firearm.
3. Contain the words, "no firearms allowed pursuant to A.R.S. section 4-229".
B. A person shall not carry a firearm on the licensed premises of an on-sale retailer if the licensee has posted the notice prescribed in subsection A of this section.
C. It is an affirmative defense to a violation of subsection B of this section if:
1. The person was not informed of the notice prescribed in subsection A of this section before the violation.
2. Any one or more of the following apply:
(a) At the time of the violation the notice prescribed in subsection A of this section had fallen down.
(b) At the time of the violation the person was not a resident of this state.
(c) The licensee had posted the notice prescribed in subsection A of this section not more than thirty days before the violation.
D. The department of liquor licenses and control shall prepare the signs required by this section and make them available at no cost to licensees.
E. The signs required by this section shall be composed of block, capital letters printed in black on white laminated paper at a minimum weight of one hundred ten pound index. The lettering and pictogram shall consume a space at least six inches by nine inches. The letters constituting the words "no firearms allowed" shall be at least three-fourths of a vertical inch and all other letters shall be at least one-half of a vertical inch. Nothing shall prohibit a licensee from posting additional signs at one or more locations on the premises.
F. This section does not prohibit a person who possesses a handgun from entering the licensed premises for a limited time for the specific purpose of either:
1. Seeking emergency aid.
2. Determining whether a sign has been posted pursuant to subsection A of this section.

Good catch.
I can't find it anywhere else in the code, and all of the apps that I've checked all reference 4-229.
Legal Heat cites 4-229 under the "prohibited places/alcohol" section, but under that after listing other locations it references posted locations but does not cite the section.
CCW only lists the text of the section

__________________
- Rich

Quote:

Originally Posted by dantodd

A just government will not be overthrown by force or violence because the people have no incentive to overthrow a just government. If a small minority of people attempt such an insurrection to grab power and enslave the people, the RKBA of the whole is our insurance against their success.

Any “posted” buildings, a building is posted if it is:
Posted in a conspicuous location accessible to the general public and immediately adjacent to the liquor license posted on the licensed premises.
Contain a pictogram that shows a firearm within a red circle and a diagonal red line across the firearm.
Contain the words, "no firearms allowed pursuant to A.R.S. section 4-229".

I would recommend getting the CCW app for your phone

I think there is a specific size requirement for the sign to isn’t there

So, does a hand-written sign in the upper corner of the door of a cinvience store, on an 8.5"x11" paper, only saying "No Weapons Allowed on Premises" have force of law?
This is in AZ.

Sent from my SM-N910V using Tapatalk

No, however, if they find out your are carrying they can ask you to leave and you must leave asap or you risk being cited fot criminal trespass. Concealed is concealed and they should never know you are carrying!

__________________
"Here I Come Again Now Baby, Like A Dog In Heat" - Ted Nugent!
"The Unarmed Man Is Not Just Defensless, He Is Also Contemptable" - Machiavelli!
"Politics Is The Second Oldest Profession. It Bears A Strong Resemblence To The First" - Ronald Reagan!
"Life Is Hard. Its Harder When You're Stupid"-John Wayne!
"Liberalism Is A Mental Disorder"-Michael Savage!

FWIW, I haven't seen very many of those signs in AZ and I spend a fair amount of time there. To be fair I'm rarely in PHX or Tucson, maybe it's more common there.

Last trip to visit my parents, I saw a grand total of one 30-07 sign on a gas station in Texas south of Fort Worth (30-07 is no open carry), and the only sign that we saw in AZ was on the back door to the Roadkill Cafe.

__________________
- Rich

Quote:

Originally Posted by dantodd

A just government will not be overthrown by force or violence because the people have no incentive to overthrow a just government. If a small minority of people attempt such an insurrection to grab power and enslave the people, the RKBA of the whole is our insurance against their success.

Last trip to visit my parents, I saw a grand total of one 30-07 sign on a gas station in Texas south of Fort Worth (30-07 is no open carry), and the only sign that we saw in AZ was on the back door to the Roadkill Cafe.

Kind of ironic in a way, it kind of seems like Seligman is the last place you'd see one.

Kind of ironic in a way, it kind of seems like Seligman is the last place you'd see one.

Ya... Probably because it tends to be a regular biker stop, probably want to head off any issues with the RUBs who've had a few too many beers.

I had seen the signs (on both doors) for years, even when they were only an open carry state.
Last year, we parked on the "ghost town" side and there was no sign on the door. COOL! I thought. Ya, saw the one on the outside of the door by the motel when I used the restroom.

__________________
- Rich

Quote:

Originally Posted by dantodd

A just government will not be overthrown by force or violence because the people have no incentive to overthrow a just government. If a small minority of people attempt such an insurrection to grab power and enslave the people, the RKBA of the whole is our insurance against their success.

I've seen the incorrect signs here and there. At a restaurant in Phoenix, a gas station off the 10 like in Quartzite, and a mall in like Phoenix. Generally I just choose to not patronize such bsuinesses.

Saw it once at a movie theater and I left without going in. This may get awkward when I move to AZ permanently and start dating.

In Nevada where the signs do not have force of law I just ignore them if need be. I actually don't see them often in NV. The casinos I mainly go to don't have them but one does tape up signs during the Laughlin River Run.

So, does a hand-written sign in the upper corner of the door of a cinvience store, on an 8.5"x11" paper, only saying "No Weapons Allowed on Premises" have force of law?
This is in AZ.

Sent from my SM-N910V using Tapatalk

Based on the statute I quoted above, yes it does IMO. Unless you can prove beyond a reasonable doubt that it is not "reasonable notice". However you obvious saw the sign as you entered the business and if it is posted on the inside of the door facing outward, then it can be reasonably assumed that it is official notice from the business.

Obviously you have to be found to be carrying a firearm for the business to even know. Are you automatically going to be charged and arrested, probably not. You will likely just be asked to leave. But if an employee saw you had a weapon, theoretically they could call the cops and you could be arrested/ticketed without the business making contact with you about it at all.

I've seen the incorrect signs here and there. At a restaurant in Phoenix, a gas station off the 10 like in Quartzite, and a mall in like Phoenix. Generally I just choose to not patronize such bsuinesses.

Saw it once at a movie theater and I left without going in. This may get awkward when I move to AZ permanently and start dating.

In Nevada where the signs do not have force of law I just ignore them if need be. I actually don't see them often in NV. The casinos I mainly go to don't have them but one does tape up signs during the Laughlin River Run.

There are no "incorrect signs" unless the location is an "on-sale retailer" of alcohol. That Title of the ARS is the only one that has signage requirements.

Where is the other section of the statute that applies to businesses other than those selling alcohol?
4-229 refers to sellers of alcohol.
13-1502 defines criminal trespass, but does not reference firearms. It simply has the vague "or reasonable notice prohibiting entry", which I would assume to be a general "No Trespassing", "Sorry, we are closed", or "Private Property" sign or similar.

__________________
- Rich

Quote:

Originally Posted by dantodd

A just government will not be overthrown by force or violence because the people have no incentive to overthrow a just government. If a small minority of people attempt such an insurrection to grab power and enslave the people, the RKBA of the whole is our insurance against their success.

Where is the other section of the statute that applies to businesses other than those selling alcohol?
4-229 refers to sellers of alcohol.
13-1502 defines criminal trespass, but does not reference firearms. It simply has the vague "or reasonable notice prohibiting entry", which I would assume to be a general "No Trespassing", "Sorry, we are closed", or "Private Property" sign or similar.

Just the trespassing one. If they post "No Firearms" in a reasonable manner, (that is prohibiting your entry if you are armed) and you carry inside anyway, then you are automatically trespassing and no need to be asked to leave. They can just call the cops on you. Had the last bit of "reasonable notice" not been included, then the sign would have no legal effect and the CA style of trespassing rule would apply. There is no firearm or CCW exemption and nothing clarifying the content of the sign. So per the letter of the law, "No purple jackets" is allowed.

However, it I suppose it depends on how "reasonable notice" is defined. "Reasonable" as in "no purple jackets" being unreasonable, or "reasonable" as in "in plain view and language visible prior to entry".

handgunlaw.us includes comment about the "reasonable notice" in it's "Do signs carry the weight of law" section. I assume they have similar view.

Would any of this stick and you actually be charged, unlikely. However it would probably result in you losing your permit if its reported

C. It is an affirmative defense to a violation of subsection B of this section if:
1. The person was not informed of the notice prescribed in subsection A of this section before the violation.
2. Any one or more of the following apply:
(a) At the time of the violation the notice prescribed in subsection A of this section had fallen down.(b) At the time of the violation the person was not a resident of this state.
(c) The licensee had posted the notice prescribed in subsection A of this section not more than thirty days before the violation.

Does this mean you can affirmatively defend violation of the posted sign if you are NOT a resident of the state?

As in "hey I didn't know, I'm not from Arizona, I will leave your establishment now"... no harm no foul?

C. It is an affirmative defense to a violation of subsection B of this section if:
2. Any one or more of the following apply:(b) At the time of the violation the person was not a resident of this state.

Does this mean you can affirmatively defend violation of the posted sign if you are NOT a resident of the state?

As in "hey I didn't know, I'm not from Arizona, I will leave your establishment now"... no harm no foul?

Not exactly.

Keep in mind that "affirmative defense" when codified within the law is not a "get out of jail free" card or exemption from the law.
It is what it says it is.
It is an affirmative defense.
The same as in California, if someone breaks into your home and you kill them, it is an affirmative defense that you were in reasonable fear for your life if there are signs of forced entry.

To actually USE the affirmative defense implies arrest, charge, and trial.

It may also not be viewed favorably or accepted by the jury if you hold an AZ CCW, because signing the application includes the claim that you have read the applicable APS codes, therefore, you can not say that you were unaware of the law as you would be able to if you were carrying under Constitutional Carry without a permit.

__________________
- Rich

Quote:

Originally Posted by dantodd

A just government will not be overthrown by force or violence because the people have no incentive to overthrow a just government. If a small minority of people attempt such an insurrection to grab power and enslave the people, the RKBA of the whole is our insurance against their success.

C. It is an affirmative defense to a violation of subsection B of this section if:
1. The person was not informed of the notice prescribed in subsection A of this section before the violation.
2. Any one or more of the following apply:
(a) At the time of the violation the notice prescribed in subsection A of this section had fallen down.(b) At the time of the violation the person was not a resident of this state.
(c) The licensee had posted the notice prescribed in subsection A of this section not more than thirty days before the violation.

Does this mean you can affirmatively defend violation of the posted sign if you are NOT a resident of the state?

As in "hey I didn't know, I'm not from Arizona, I will leave your establishment now"... no harm no foul?

When you filled out your AZ Application, you signed saying that you have read all the AZ firearms laws. So, if you really think that "not knowing the law" will be a good defense, how are you planning on defending yourself against the perjury charges?

When you filled out your AZ Application, you signed saying that you have read all the AZ firearms laws. So, if you really think that "not knowing the law" will be a good defense, how are you planning on defending yourself against the perjury charges?

Bingo.

The statutes really are written around someone who is carrying under CC, or under an out of state CCW.

And "affirmative defense" doesn't even come into play until you are before a judge and jury.

__________________
- Rich

Quote:

Originally Posted by dantodd

A just government will not be overthrown by force or violence because the people have no incentive to overthrow a just government. If a small minority of people attempt such an insurrection to grab power and enslave the people, the RKBA of the whole is our insurance against their success.