It means only that Brun told someone how to made it look like an accident, not that she actually did the Queequeg on anyone. It's still aiding and abetting if said harpoon hurling was unlawful, but verbal instruction only would be much harder to trace back to her.

Sorry about that. I only meant that I'm now certain she's killed before and will again.Now I want a storyline where she was a nautically themed superspy that harpooned fools in the name of national security. Maybe she had a run-in with Steve and tortura.

I've been reading for three years and this was kind of a screeching halt for me. What bizarre turn of events can make you too poor for raisins? That was definitely something I could get with school lunch too. Is there some kind of grape famine that needs to be explained at a later date?

I've been that poor. Yes, raisins are cheap. But they are also not filling. The primary goal when your food bill is around $10 a week is how much filling mass you can get so you don't feel like you are constantly starving. That's why quarter ramen is a staple. Cheap price for that amount of starchy filler.

So Clinton just shared about how awful his dad was and now Brun mentions something that affected her upbringing. I guess it's Elliot's turn next...?

Edited to add:I personally have never been so poor that I couldn't afford raisins but I've talked to or read stuff by people who have been that poor, and yeah... Brun's comments were totally believable to me. I count myself very lucky that I've never been in that situation (even though I have lived below the poverty line a lot, my situation has never been quite so bad).

I've been reading for three years and this was kind of a screeching halt for me. What bizarre turn of events can make you too poor for raisins? That was definitely something I could get with school lunch too. Is there some kind of grape famine that needs to be explained at a later date?

Welcome, sort of new person!

The thing to understand here is the need of many people to have a reason for being. According to the French, this creates a raisin debt.

This is probably just me or maybe I was fortunate but I do get the impression that Jeph used the 'too poor for raisins' basically as an exaggeration for effect because my experience is that they're ultra-cheap; they're just not a staple food and thus rarely on the shopping list. That said, this son of an unemployed single mother (who wasn't able to get work until I was around 5 years and then at a very low salary) does know that such 'treats' as I had were either gifts from my better-off relatives or something that my mother had to budget carefully to afford, as in 'what necessity can we do without this week'.

I do like panel 6. Yes, Brun is getting to know Clinton's behaviour patterns. She's good enough at it that she's pretty sure that he doesn't like being embarrassed by his lack of certain social experiences that lead to him being able to predict her experiences. She'll bear that in mind in the future.

Over on Patreon, some posters have speculated that Brun's parents may have been undocumented migrants. Does anyone else think that's possible?

I once spent about half a year wearing shoes that were chafing my ankle. (New ones would have been 30 Euros or so). Before my mother had discovered it and was apalled, I had literally developed calluses.

When you are a poor child in a poor family, you learn not to ask for those special treats, because you are aware you are poor, and your parents probably won't buy it anyway, and you don't want to stress them, so you just never mention anything that goes beyond what is usually bought. Because you don't have a real concept of what things are worth, and when your parent says "it's too expensive", you remember that, no matter if it is 50 ct or 30 Euros.

Poverty fucks with your mind, especially when you are a child.

(I cam out of the woodworks just to say this. Damn, I never want to be poor again.)

When you are a poor child in a poor family, you learn not to ask for those special treats, because you are aware you are poor, and your parents probably won't buy it anyway, and you don't want to stress them, so you just never mention anything that goes beyond what is usually bought. Because you don't have a real concept of what things are worth, and when your parent says "it's too expensive", you remember that, no matter if it is 50 ct or 30 Euros.Poverty fucks with your mind, especially when you are a child.

Amen to that. I think folks are focusing on the wrong target here. It's not the raisins. It's the opportunity cost of raisins.

I'm not completely sure where JJ is going with the current arc, but the approach feels somewhat ehm, heavyhanded? (Is that the right word?)

I don't know. Much like the start with Claire, I think the author is being quite careful in setting out his stand before commencing the story. A huge amount of his characters, and I suspect readers, are somewhat privileged, probably middle class and have never properly struggled for money. Having to buy Aldi tinned tuna instead of Waitrose/Trader Joe/Spar is not struggling. Stretching 1 can for 4 might be. Give him a chance. If we are lucky it will develop into the Claire arc, if not the Tilly one

I get the feeling that Brun and Renee go wayyyy back, probably since childhood. Brun doesn't feel the need to make overt gestures of greeting to Renee like she did to Clinton. That's the kind of bond that can take years to establish.

I had a good friend growing up, their family was extremely poor. They had electricity about one week out of the month, bathed in a tub outside, and had to keep their shoes for so long their toes are permanently curled and cramped. They almost never had food in the house and both of her parents were heavy drug addicts.

She is very aware of what raisins are and when I asked her what she thought of this comic and she said it was extremely upsetting. She isn't wholly ignorant of everything her family couldn't afford, and to imply otherwise is grossly offensive.

I had always heard Jeph was disconnected from reality but this is a big one in my view.

Personally I've been very poor. My diet consisted of rice and kool-aid was a big treat that I looked forward to, and I often had to give my dog what little food I had because I consider it unfair to make a dog go hungry, and I was in such a bad place that I honestly wasn't sure if starving to death would be all that bad.

We don't know what Brun's parents told her about what food was affordable. We don't know what logical but clueless childhood guesses she came up with on her own. I can imagine several ways this could be good writing even if Brun is completely wrong about the affordability of raisins.

There's an old XKCD comic about how when someone shares with you that they lack an experience, the best response is welcoming joy, not disdain or even disbelief. It was meant to be about pop culture, but it can also apply to food.

I did and they were not.As for Raisins, as a kid I remember having them in Stollen and oranges were also something to be anticipated at Christmas.Bread was by the tray and it was the long past the best before date but rodent and fungus free. For my dad supporting a family with 4 preschool kids on a self employed income that was dependent of clients actually paying their bills on time if at all was a challenge.My mum tried the best she could to give us as close to a middle class life as she could.The house was clean but sparse and we had the utilities cut off in winter a couple of times - St Vincent De Paul helped fix that issue back then [it was illegal for the utilities to do that] - those deadbeat clients aka the 1%. The SallyAnn was the place for clothing and pretty much anything you could get away with used.Outside of Christmas gifts received from overseas relatives, we bought our own toys from there with what little we made on our own doing chores around the neighborhood.

If you are raised in an environment where EVERYTHING was scrimped and saved it is very very hard to not always look at the cost of things even if you do much better latter on in life.

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A good pun is it's own reword.There is a difference between spare parts, extra parts and left over parts.

The Venn diagram for Common Sense and Good Sense has very little, if any, overlap.

I remember other kids had little packets of raisins as if it were candy. They gave me a few raisins.(I wasn't poor) Though we had raisins at home, like in muesli (oats), and if we were lucky raisin bread. My favorite ice cream is Rum Raisins (Malaga), which I discovered back in my university dorm, the ice cream man even gave me his number as I was a good customer.

Milayna: "even if they aren't physically abusive, they work their way into every part of your life so when they remove themself from it they leave a hole. It's not like a relief that hes gone and you can get back to your usual stuff in peace - there IS no usual stuff" -- that. That's my dad.

"People like that are the worst. You gotta structure your life around managing them and even then it's just to reduce the excuses they can find to blow up. They're too entitled to ever change."My dad.

« Last Edit: 11 Jul 2018, 16:35 by zmeiat_joro »

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I, for one, welcome the fragmentation of deeper levels of shared reality.

I had a good friend growing up, their family was extremely poor. They had electricity about one week out of the month, bathed in a tub outside, and had to keep their shoes for so long their toes are permanently curled and cramped. They almost never had food in the house and both of her parents were heavy drug addicts.

She is very aware of what raisins are and when I asked her what she thought of this comic and she said it was extremely upsetting. She isn't wholly ignorant of everything her family couldn't afford, and to imply otherwise is grossly offensive.

I had always heard Jeph was disconnected from reality but this is a big one in my view.

Personally I've been very poor. My diet consisted of rice and kool-aid was a big treat that I looked forward to, and I often had to give my dog what little food I had because I consider it unfair to make a dog go hungry, and I was in such a bad place that I honestly wasn't sure if starving to death would be all that bad.

I know what fucking raisins taste like.

Well I guess we read this comic differently then. I don't see this as implying that poor people are ignorant about things they can't afford at all. I see it as Jeph making the point "believe people when they tell you about their life".

Brun isn't ignorant of what raisins are. She's just never had one and doesn't know if she likes them. I find that believable - I didn't know what raisins were like for ages (Mum didn't like them and so didn't buy them).

When Clinton pushes back with "you never had them packed in your lunch for school", "what about snacks at home" she answers each question very literally as Brun tends to do. And honestly that was kind of obnoxious of Clinton - assuming that experiences of his are common to everyone. I never experienced lots of stuff growing up, not because we were very poor but because my parents had weird ideas about some things. And it's really annoying when people doubt my word about it if it comes up in conversation. A simple "Really? You've never tried X? / You've never seen Y? / You've never been to a...?" is okay but when they keep pushing the issue ("I can't believe you've never... what about... or what about..."), I get really annoyed. "Yes I just said I've never tried X, didn't you hear me! Can you get over just get over your shock about it already and stop disbelieving my life?"

Also remember the deodorant arc - Brun doesn't tend to buy new things because she doesn't trust them. The autism spectrum traits that Brun has displayed makes it less likely for her to try new things. I'm sure she's seen raisins and raisin bread in shops but just has never bought them because she doesn't know if she'll like them. It's very in character for Brun to not try new things.

Well we know a little more about Brun, but I’m still curious about whether she was born in the US or immigrated. Since her full name is Brunhilde I suppose she lived for some time in Germany, but her parents originated from Turkey or possibly another Middle Eastern country.

So, Brun's an orphan and lost both her parents before she was twenty (or ~5 years ago in-universe). Oddly enough, the first thing that popped into my head is: Has she been essentially on her own since then? Y'see, the way she avoids Clinton's eyes in Panel 3 makes me think that no-one has ever offered Brun emotional support over this. It's still painful for Brun but I get the impression that someone has basically taught her that it is something that she keep away from social contacts because they don't want to hear about it. FWIW, I've wondered for a while if her former employer at The Nasty Whale may have been a relative of some kind but his actions to date really don't suggest that he's someone who'd be inclined to help a damaged young adult deal with grief that her brain can probably only barely process. Maybe he's responsible for some of her difficulty in trusting and opening up?

All that aside, I'd really like to hear Brun's analysis of raisins and why she doesn't like them. The fact that it took so many slices to decide does suggest it was a fairly close outcome!

So, here's a prediction for the rest of this arc: Clinton decides that Brun needs a hug. She asks him (in her usual way) if this is a socially-appropriate gesture of support or a prelude to a sexual advance. Clinton confirms that it's a gesture of support and so she feels safe to reciprocate, remarking that she isn't entirely opposed to the latter from him. Elliot comes over and it kind of breaks his heart because, as always, he's making assumptions without context. He wanders home in a huff and is taking off his shirt as he walks down the hall, giving Roko a good first view of Human Abs.

It's an exercise in illustrating contrasts. In Clinton's world access to a particular food was so much the norm that it was scarcely noticed but a nice father was unheard of. In Brun's world that same food was an unaffordable luxury while having two loving parents was something taken for granted as a child.

Kids learn what they live, and Clinton will model his parenting on his own father's. He's intelligent enough to break the pattern, but it will require conscious effort on his part. Some guys can dad by the seat of their pants, but he won't dare to without risking disaster. (It won't be as much of an issue if there was an as yet unintroduced male role model, perhaps a grandfather or uncle, in their lives.)

Well we know a little more about Brun, but I’m still curious about whether she was born in the US or immigrated. Since her full name is Brunhilde I suppose she lived for some time in Germany, but her parents originated from Turkey or possibly another Middle Eastern country.

For what it’s worth, I’ve always seen Brun as being of mixed European and African ancestry - her skin tone and hair match that. If I had to construct a headcanon for her, it would be that her African-American father was in the US Air Force and married a local girl while stationed in Germany. It’s a common enough story.

Well we know a little more about Brun, but I’m still curious about whether she was born in the US or immigrated. Since her full name is Brunhilde I suppose she lived for some time in Germany, but her parents originated from Turkey or possibly another Middle Eastern country.

For what it’s worth, I’ve always seen Brun as being of mixed European and African ancestry - her skin tone and hair match that. If I had to construct a headcanon for her, it would be that her African-American father was in the US Air Force and married a local girl while stationed in Germany. It’s a common enough story.

Personally, I think that Brun is an ethnic Roma whose most recent ancestry is German. Her hair and skin colour is consistent with that.

I had a good friend growing up, their family was extremely poor. They had electricity about one week out of the month, bathed in a tub outside, and had to keep their shoes for so long their toes are permanently curled and cramped. They almost never had food in the house and both of her parents were heavy drug addicts.

She is very aware of what raisins are and when I asked her what she thought of this comic and she said it was extremely upsetting. She isn't wholly ignorant of everything her family couldn't afford, and to imply otherwise is grossly offensive.

I had always heard Jeph was disconnected from reality but this is a big one in my view.

Personally I've been very poor. My diet consisted of rice and kool-aid was a big treat that I looked forward to, and I often had to give my dog what little food I had because I consider it unfair to make a dog go hungry, and I was in such a bad place that I honestly wasn't sure if starving to death would be all that bad.

I know what fucking raisins taste like.

Without being ridiculous here - is it not possible to be poorer than you were? Is it not possible to have different accessibility to these things?

And to throw something in from my own headcanon - people often suspect that Brun has AS, I have AS, there are SHITLOADS of things that I haven't tried and many points in life where I might not have put together that 1. my own experience is unusual 2. the reasoning may be different to what I think it is.

I think the raisins are an allegory for the difference between poverty and privilege. It really could have been anything, but raisins just fit into the "bread week" theme easily.

And where, precisely, does poverty end and privilege begin?

The poverty isn't just financial, Clinton grew up financially stable while Brun grew up (at least until she was 15) with two loving parents. Both had something the other didn't thus in a way privileged.

I had a good friend growing up, their family was extremely poor. They had electricity about one week out of the month, bathed in a tub outside, and had to keep their shoes for so long their toes are permanently curled and cramped. They almost never had food in the house and both of her parents were heavy drug addicts.

She is very aware of what raisins are and when I asked her what she thought of this comic and she said it was extremely upsetting. She isn't wholly ignorant of everything her family couldn't afford, and to imply otherwise is grossly offensive.

I had always heard Jeph was disconnected from reality but this is a big one in my view.

Personally I've been very poor. My diet consisted of rice and kool-aid was a big treat that I looked forward to, and I often had to give my dog what little food I had because I consider it unfair to make a dog go hungry, and I was in such a bad place that I honestly wasn't sure if starving to death would be all that bad.

I know what fucking raisins taste like.

Without being ridiculous here - is it not possible to be poorer than you were? Is it not possible to have different accessibility to these things?

And to throw something in from my own headcanon - people often suspect that Brun has AS, I have AS, there are SHITLOADS of things that I haven't tried and many points in life where I might not have put together that 1. my own experience is unusual 2. the reasoning may be different to what I think it is.

Yes, I've been meaning to say something like this, so thank you for beating me to it.

There are all kinds of reasons why anyone would or would not have tried any specific food you care to name. Why Clinton, or anyone else, is quite so astonished that Brun had, until this point, never tried a raisin is a little... well... astonishing to me. This is like the food version of the famous xkcd ten thousand strip. Why make a big deal out of it? I don't think that it requires any special explanation. As I joked before, I didn't have raisins growing up. That's just because little snack boxes of sultanas were more popular at the time.

It would be kind of funny if we had a future strip where it turns out that Hannelore has also never had raisins.

BTW, this may be a subtlety, but Brun didn't really say she'd never had raisins because she was poor. She said she didn't have snacks because she was poor. Raisins aren't just snacks. She never had raisins because... well, she just never had them. It happens.

P.S. It's hard to draft these posts and successfully communicate your thoughts when you're tired and really ought to be in bed.

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"There is no expedient to which a man will not resort to avoid the real labor of thinking." - Sir Joshua Reynolds (paraphrased)

I had a good friend growing up, their family was extremely poor. They had electricity about one week out of the month, bathed in a tub outside, and had to keep their shoes for so long their toes are permanently curled and cramped. They almost never had food in the house and both of her parents were heavy drug addicts.

She is very aware of what raisins are and when I asked her what she thought of this comic and she said it was extremely upsetting. She isn't wholly ignorant of everything her family couldn't afford, and to imply otherwise is grossly offensive.

I had always heard Jeph was disconnected from reality but this is a big one in my view.

Personally I've been very poor. My diet consisted of rice and kool-aid was a big treat that I looked forward to, and I often had to give my dog what little food I had because I consider it unfair to make a dog go hungry, and I was in such a bad place that I honestly wasn't sure if starving to death would be all that bad.

I know what fucking raisins taste like.

Well I guess we read this comic differently then. I don't see this as implying that poor people are ignorant about things they can't afford at all. I see it as Jeph making the point "believe people when they tell you about their life".

Brun isn't ignorant of what raisins are. She's just never had one and doesn't know if she likes them. I find that believable - I didn't know what raisins were like for ages (Mum didn't like them and so didn't buy them).

When Clinton pushes back with "you never had them packed in your lunch for school", "what about snacks at home" she answers each question very literally as Brun tends to do. And honestly that was kind of obnoxious of Clinton - assuming that experiences of his are common to everyone. I never experienced lots of stuff growing up, not because we were very poor but because my parents had weird ideas about some things. And it's really annoying when people doubt my word about it if it comes up in conversation. A simple "Really? You've never tried X? / You've never seen Y? / You've never been to a...?" is okay but when they keep pushing the issue ("I can't believe you've never... what about... or what about..."), I get really annoyed. "Yes I just said I've never tried X, didn't you hear me! Can you get over just get over your shock about it already and stop disbelieving my life?"

Also remember the deodorant arc - Brun doesn't tend to buy new things because she doesn't trust them. The autism spectrum traits that Brun has displayed makes it less for her to try new things. I'm sure she's seen raisins and raisin bread in shops but just has never bought them because she doesn't know if she'll like them. It's very in character for Brun to not try new things.

I've never really had plain white bread. I seem to recall having it toasted once or twice. And one time I was at a friend's hpuse and was served a white bread sandwich that was practically soaked in mustard(which I did not like as a child) and it made me sick.

I have no real idea what white bread is like. In my case it was because we were poor. My parents read made sure to at least give me healthy bread as often we didn't have much else besides.

It's such a weird disconnect that even though I have never had it(anything soaked with mustard would have made me sick) I'm a little afraid of it.

We also had no phone for 4 years. And no air conditioning for 4 years as well. and we were in a place that in 2018 climbs up to 125 degrees Fahrenheit.

There were lots of foods I wasn't familiar with because despite how poor we were my parents tried to keep me healthy. For almost 2 years we had chicken almost every night and spaghetti with marinara sauce.

One thing I know that DID make me different is Inhad a much wider knowledge of fruit juices and "weird" nature foods like sprouts and ridiccio I didn't like em as a kid but my da's family always had odd stuff because they were really well off.

I could go on but in my case I know there's some really common foods that I have never had and even avoid.

White bread always makes me feel sick even though I've never technically had it because all I know about it is it doesn't have all the grains and stuff even the cheapest bargain basement wheat bread has.

I also really like the thick sprouted wheat bread with the sunflower seed chunks and stuff.

I had a good friend growing up, their family was extremely poor. They had electricity about one week out of the month, bathed in a tub outside, and had to keep their shoes for so long their toes are permanently curled and cramped. They almost never had food in the house and both of her parents were heavy drug addicts.

She is very aware of what raisins are and when I asked her what she thought of this comic and she said it was extremely upsetting. She isn't wholly ignorant of everything her family couldn't afford, and to imply otherwise is grossly offensive.

I had always heard Jeph was disconnected from reality but this is a big one in my view.

Personally I've been very poor. My diet consisted of rice and kool-aid was a big treat that I looked forward to, and I often had to give my dog what little food I had because I consider it unfair to make a dog go hungry, and I was in such a bad place that I honestly wasn't sure if starving to death would be all that bad.

I know what fucking raisins taste like.

Well I guess we read this comic differently then. I don't see this as implying that poor people are ignorant about things they can't afford at all. I see it as Jeph making the point "believe people when they tell you about their life".

Brun isn't ignorant of what raisins are. She's just never had one and doesn't know if she likes them. I find that believable - I didn't know what raisins were like for ages (Mum didn't like them and so didn't buy them).

When Clinton pushes back with "you never had them packed in your lunch for school", "what about snacks at home" she answers each question very literally as Brun tends to do. And honestly that was kind of obnoxious of Clinton - assuming that experiences of his are common to everyone. I never experienced lots of stuff growing up, not because we were very poor but because my parents had weird ideas about some things. And it's really annoying when people doubt my word about it if it comes up in conversation. A simple "Really? You've never tried X? / You've never seen Y? / You've never been to a...?" is okay but when they keep pushing the issue ("I can't believe you've never... what about... or what about..."), I get really annoyed. "Yes I just said I've never tried X, didn't you hear me! Can you get over just get over your shock about it already and stop disbelieving my life?"

Also remember the deodorant arc - Brun doesn't tend to buy new things because she doesn't trust them. The autism spectrum traits that Brun has displayed makes it less for her to try new things. I'm sure she's seen raisins and raisin bread in shops but just has never bought them because she doesn't know if she'll like them. It's very in character for Brun to not try new things.

I was like that for most of my life, too, both as a trait and for Reasons. My dad continually pushed me to try new things (food, experiences going to the top of the Gateway Arch even though I was afraid of heights, etc) - it as like a personal crusade. I mostly resisted, both as a trait and for Reasons. Nowadays I go out of my way to try new restaurants (when my money anxiety is low enough), order things I haven't tried in restaurants, or at least try whatever new item the fast food joints have in stock. Though my habits mostly stick to the same...things, partially because I don't know what else there is to do or how to find out, partially because I hate spending money, and partially fear. Though the last one is not as much a factor as it used to be.

Y'see, the way she avoids Clinton's eyes in Panel 3 makes me think that no-one has ever offered Brun emotional support over this. It's still painful for Brun but I get the impression that someone has basically taught her that it is something that she keep away from social contacts because they don't want to hear about it.

All that aside, I'd really like to hear Brun's analysis of raisins and why she doesn't like them. The fact that it took so many slices to decide does suggest it was a fairly close outcome!

She also avoids eye contact in the previous comic, quite obviously, focusing on the raisins as she answers those questions.

Analyzing from my personal perspective again: I avoid eye contact, in general, because it's uncomfortable, and because eye contact alone makes a creepy stare; there's a whole load of other subtle nonverbal behaviors that need to accompany it, and it's difficult enough alone to try to form precise thoughts and then form them into words. Add to that remembering what amounts to a complicated dance; add to it doing it in a way that communicates effectively to someone I am not familiar enough with to fully understand - and who I know doesn't fully understand me, and may get offended if I screw up - and then emotionally charge the subject on top of everything; and yeah, I'll need to put my focus on ANYTHING else just to make sure my verbal communication says what I want it to.

This isn't the case with all autistic people, of course - I knew a guy who was boisterous and gregarious. I'm probably more avoidant than most, hence my need to guard myself becoming so overwhelming that full communication is nearly impossible in these situations. (Notice, also, that she did make eye contact briefly when she felt the need to push back).

Also watch her eyes: her staring at the bread was pretty intense while under the 3rd degree, but in today's comic, once Clinton lets up and the situation defuses somewhat, she's still avoiding eye contact but not in a focused, deliberate way.

Now that you mention it I really want to hear this raisin analysis too!