Heard them talking about this on the radio and think it is an interesting debate since he doesn't have the quicks you would expect.
http://www.rotoworld.com/headlines/nfl/204132/football-headlines?r=1

According to the Houston Chronicle, the Texans will use Mario Williams at outside linebacker in their new 3-4.
Mario is 6'7/290, so he'll be the biggest linebacker in NFL history. (Even bigger than Levon Kirkland.) The Patriots once considered pursuing Julius Peppers (6'7/280) to play outside 'backer in their 3-4, although Williams isn't quite as athletic. Still, it will give him a better chance at sacks than 3-4 end. Connor Barwin and Brooks Reed will compete for the job opposite Mario.

V3rm0nt3r

05-05-2011, 10:31 AM

I like it. This put's the most talent on the field possible for the Texans which is a must.
Envisioned starters in the front 7
DE: A. Smith
NT: Mitchel/Cody/Okoye
DE:Watt
OLB: Mario
ILB: DeMeco
ILB: Cushing
OLB: Reed/Barwin

Can't hate that lineup.

Corrosion

05-05-2011, 10:37 AM

I just hope they dont expect him to cover TE's or RBs' ....

Im almost positive that teams will find ways to exploit his presence at OLB.

On paper , it looks like a dynamic pass rushing group .... who knows how it will play out on the field.

HoustonFrog

05-05-2011, 10:41 AM

I just hope they dont expect him to cover TE's or RBs' ....

Im almost positive that teams will find ways to exploit his presence at OLB.

On paper , it looks like a dynamic pass rushing group .... who knows how it will play out on the field.

What they were talking about this morning is that teams that play Double TE sets...NE, Dallas, etc(with 2 athletic TEs) can take advantage of the seams because you don't know if those guys can cover or who can cover. Overall he isn't Ware so I don't see this, though it frees others up.

DocBar

05-05-2011, 10:41 AM

Bad idea.

Ole Miss Texan

05-05-2011, 10:41 AM

I just hope they dont expect him to cover TE's or RBs' ....

Im almost positive that teams will find ways to exploit his presence at OLB.

On paper , it looks like a dynamic pass rushing group .... who knows how it will play out on the field.

Agreed. I think when it's all said and done... even if he's called an OLB, his role will be pretty much the exact same as when he was a "43 DE".

HOU-TEX

05-05-2011, 10:47 AM

I call BS. I'm sure he will be used as a pass rush OLB at times, but I'm willing to guarantee he will not be there full time. I see Watt, Smith and Mario in a DE rotation most of the time. With Barwin, Reed and someone else possibly playing the OLB's. I can see passing downs being totally different with Mario and Barwin standing. Watt, Smith and Mitchell being the down linemen.

IMO, Mario would be a huge liability in coverage. He just doesn't have the quick burst of a Barwin or Reed

CloakNNNdagger

05-05-2011, 10:50 AM

Anyone remember Ed "too tall" Jones....6'9"?

IBleedTexans

05-05-2011, 11:07 AM

This sounds like mclame trying to be ahead of the pack type of projection. I swear that fat sack of poop knows no inside at all! Amazing how he still has a job.

ArlingtonTexan

05-05-2011, 11:12 AM

Williams is going to be playing the position of pass rusher. He may start front a two point or three point stance. The texans probably will be in its 4 man pass rush front as much as the pure 3-4. Mario will rarely be doing anything he does not do now

edit: grammar and mechanics clean up.

disaacks3

05-05-2011, 11:19 AM

I like it. This put's the most talent on the field possible for the Texans which is a must.
Envisioned starters in the front 7
DE: A. Smith
NT: Mitchel/Cody/Okoye
DE:Watt
OLB: Mario
ILB: DeMeco
ILB: Cushing
OLB: Reed/Barwin

Williams is going to be playing the position of pass rusher. He may start front a two point or three pointThe texans probably will be in its 4 man pass rush front as much as the pure 3-4. Essentially Mario stance, but he will rarely be doing anything he does not do now. I hope you're right. If Mario doesn't "buy in", then the Texans will suffer.

TexCanada

05-05-2011, 11:23 AM

Williams is going to be playing the position of pass rusher. He may start front a two point or three pointThe texans probably will be in its 4 man pass rush front as much as the pure 3-4. Essentially Mario stance, but he will rarely be doing anything he does not do now.

Exactly. Wade will put him in positions to attack the QB. All this talk about positions is really over-rated and makes no difference. Mario will be rushing the QB.

Señor Stan

05-05-2011, 11:25 AM

Exactly. Wade will put him in positions to attack the QB. All this talk about positions is really over-rated and makes no difference. Mario will be sacking the QB.

Homer'ed it for you! :homer:

infantrycak

05-05-2011, 11:32 AM

LOL, Mario will never be on the depth chart as a LB. Walrus tweet aside. As AT said, he may sometimes not put his hand down. That doesn't make him a LB.

And WTF about Mario not being as athletic as Peppers?

IDEXAN

05-05-2011, 11:42 AM

Mario isn't really quick enough to be playing the weakside DE in a 4-3, and I think he's even less qualified to be playing at OLB in a 3-4. Everybody knows he should have been playing strongside 4-3 DE from Day 1.
I really think this is all a concerted effort in and out of the media by the Texans to appease Mario, because he's not at all happy about the prospects of playing in the 3-4. And he is one of the most valuable properties among all
Defensive lineman in the league, especially when one considers his relative youth at only 26. If I were the Texans I'd trade him while they have the opportunity to realize value for him and when the new CBA is worked out, because the window of opportunity to get value for him is rapidly closing.

nero THE zero

05-05-2011, 11:47 AM

This is a very Texans decision.

Mario is the prototype 3-4 DE, is entirely too big to play LB, and, according to Wade himself, takes false steps when playing standing up. Yet, they're going to attempt to stand him up to appease him and his hesitance to play inside.

I predict 1 of 2 things; this is either a quick, failed experiment, or our defense will continue to struggle and play poorly.

LOL, Mario will never be on the depth chart as a LB. Walrus tweet aside. As AT said, he may sometimes not put his hand down. That doesn't make him a LB.

And WTF about Mario not being as athletic as Peppers?
FWIW, Granato was saying the same thing this morning on the radio, citing sources "inside the organization."

Corrosion

05-05-2011, 11:54 AM

Agreed. I think when it's all said and done... even if he's called an OLB, his role will be pretty much the exact same as when he was a "43 DE".

Thats what Im thinking - So what we will see is a 43 with 3 DE's rather than a 34 with MW at OLB. Wonder what LB they put on MW's side of the field .... Cushing or Barwin/Reed ?

Tailgate

05-05-2011, 12:07 PM

I wouldn't look too much into this. He will play SOME OLB, but I suspect the majority of his snaps will come on the line.

Mario dropped back in to cover some last year see : http://www.texansbullblog.com/film-study-mario-sack-coverage/featured-articles/film-study/

steelbtexan

05-05-2011, 12:39 PM

Bad idea.

The kinda idea that will cost Gary and Rick their jobs.

CloakNNNdagger

05-05-2011, 12:41 PM

I don't know how crazy I am about this, if indeed it's true.

John McClain of the Houston Chronicle wrote about Williams’ planned conversion in a chat Wednesday. (A full story is coming Friday.) At 6’6 and 290 pounds, Williams will look a little crazy standing up. But McClain says he plans to drop some weight and the Texans won’t count on him to cover as the weak side outside linebacker.“He’ll be up in running situations and down in passing situations. Sometimes they might change him around,” McClain writes.

Phillips plans to use Williams like he did DeMarcus Ware and “loves” Williams at OLB. It appears the team selected J.J. Watt in part to free up Williams from playing defensive end.link (http://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/2011/05/05/texans-plan-to-use-mario-williams-at-outside-linebacker/)

I hope the comment (how the sentence is structured) might be McClain referring to McClain himself.

rmartin65

05-05-2011, 12:54 PM

Less than thrilled about this idea, unless it is closer to a 4-3 with 3 DEs, like some of you have said. Mario is athletic, but he is a DE. Keep him at DE.

I hope the comment (how the sentence is structured) might be McClain referring to McClain himself.

Looks like te days of coddling MW are far from over.

MW playing OLB most of the time = 6-10, 8-8.

This is very Texans country club like. How does Gary expect his team not to be as soft as Charmin. (Like Rex Ryan said) If he's craters every time players like MW complain. At the Phillips hiring PC Gary said MW is going to have to play DE whether he likes it or not. It appears Gary is changing his tune.

Cant wait for MW not to play up to his potential again and the whole regime gets fired. Wishful thinking, BoB wont ever fire HC/GM for life Gary/Rick.

I hope the comment (how the sentence is structured) might be McClain referring to McClain himself.

I had to re-read your reply a couple of times
But once I got it I laughed my ass off. Thanx rep coming your way when i get home .

Ryan

05-05-2011, 01:27 PM

I'm really excited about this. This gives our best pass rusher the best opportunity to succeed, which is what Wade is all about. He won't hardly ever cover anyone so i don't know what y'all are so worried about. And if he drops 10-15 lbs like we're hearing, i'm sure he could cover if he had to anyway.

infantrycak

05-05-2011, 01:38 PM

And if he drops 10-15 lbs like we're hearing, i'm sure he could cover if he had to anyway.

Where the heck is Mario going to drop 15 lbs. Dude is already tight at 290 lbs. He'll have to lose muscle to drop the weight.

Texans_Chick

05-05-2011, 01:46 PM

I don't see how Mario could be 270-275. Even at 290-295 the dude has six-pack abs. You don't get that unless you are already pretty lean.

They want him to drop 20 pounds? Of muscle? From where? I am having a hard time buying that report. (FWIW, Connor Barwin told me that he wasn't asked to change his weight any).

http://www.whodeyfans.com/uploaded_images/Mario-703875.jpg

In looking for that image, I found this one. Would make for fun avatar:

http://i4.photobucket.com/albums/y134/doctorsauce/williams.jpg

Corrosion

05-05-2011, 01:57 PM

Less than thrilled about this idea, unless it is closer to a 4-3 with 3 DEs, like some of you have said. Mario is athletic, but he is a DE. Keep him at DE.

When you think about it from that perspective , it could be pretty nasty. Having MW , Watt(AS) and Cushing(Reed/Barwin) coming all from one side of the field would be near impossible to block.

I wonder how much if any Wade shows this type of look in preseason games.

If MW isnt going to be asked to cover , he's really not playing LB .... Seems more like a hybrid position.

The one thing I question with a 3DE line is how well it stands up to the run .... I think they can get plenty of pressure in a scheme like that and could bring a blitz from damn near any position.

DocBar

05-05-2011, 02:01 PM

I wonder if the FO knows that the draft is over and they can quit with the smokescreens. When Phillips 1st got here, he mentioned how MW took a false step every time they asked him to stand up and it caused him to be late on the rush. The only thing that could've changed is the amount of bitchin that MW did about his stats. Not that they were stellar last season.

Corrosion

05-05-2011, 02:04 PM

I wonder if the FO knows that the draft is over and they can quit with the smokescreens. When Phillips 1st got here, he mentioned how MW took a false step every time they asked him to stand up and it caused him to be late on the rush. The only thing that could've changed is the amount of bitchin that MW did about his stats. Not that they were stellar last season.

Which is another reason why I see him as a 3rd DE ... :specnatz:

Blake

05-05-2011, 02:15 PM

LOL, Mario will never be on the depth chart as a LB. Walrus tweet aside. As AT said, he may sometimes not put his hand down. That doesn't make him a LB.

And WTF about Mario not being as athletic as Peppers?

I would equate Mario's new position to the roaming linebacker. Sometimes 3 point, sometimes 2 point. But mostly rushing on every play. Some call it elephant. I think thats what Orakpo is referred to.

Now we just need a cool animal name to call his position.

HOU-TEX

05-05-2011, 02:18 PM

Where the heck is Mario going to drop 15 lbs. Dude is already tight at 290 lbs. He'll have to lose muscle to drop the weight.

Agreed! I met him in person. The dude's pretty cut up for someone that size. If I had to guess, he'd be closer to 280 than he is to 290 right now.

But you're right, losing weight would hurt more than help him.

Big Lou

05-05-2011, 02:30 PM

Maybe we could have him play some Safety too!?!?!

Blake

05-05-2011, 02:31 PM

Mario dropped back in to cover some last year see : http://www.texansbullblog.com/film-study-mario-sack-coverage/featured-articles/film-study/

Dropping back once every 2 games is alot easier to disguise than dropping back 20 snaps a game.

Honoring Earl 34

05-05-2011, 02:31 PM

I think he could do it if he wanted ? In the Denver game his second year , I saw a lot of agility from a big dude . He also had a 1.60 10 yard split at his combine at the weight of 295 . Robert Quinn had a 1.61 .

All of this weight issues regarding Mario whether he should lose weight or gain weight or whatever isn't the issue.

What the guy needs is an "effort" insert into his heart. If the guy just went full speed all of the time and got one of those "non stop motors" that people like to use as a term for guys that go all out on every play, then he'd be a lot more effective and he could actually dominate. He's never been that kind of player with an attitude like that though and college scouts as well as NFL scouts criticized him for that a lot before he entered the league and was drafted. He's been that guy since we got him. He needs an effort battery inserted into him is what he needs.

Putting him at LB or DE or wherever won't change a thing until he decides to go all out on every play like he is paid to. The idea of him being at LB is intriguing on paper, but realistically I don't think it will be an effective experiment because I don't think he'll be fast enough to get to the QB from that position. I could certainly be wrong though.

The Cush

05-05-2011, 02:45 PM

Someone needs to explain to me Wade's "hybrid" 3-4. People keep saying its more of a 4-3 so even if they move Mario to "rush linebacker", the fact that it's still closer to a 4-3 means his position duties won't change too much and its more of a "title" change?

dalemurphy

05-05-2011, 02:47 PM

All of this weight issues regarding Mario whether he should lose weight or gain weight or whatever isn't the issue.

What the guy needs is an "effort" insert into his heart. If the guy just went full speed all of the time and got one of those "non stop motors" that people like to use a term for guys that go all out on every play, then he'd be a lot more effective and he could actually dominate. He's never been that kind of player with an attitude like that though and college scouts as well as NFL scouts criticized him for that a lot before he entered the league and was drafted. He's been that guy since we got him. He needs an effort battery inserted into him is what he needs.

Putting him at LB or DE or wherever won't change a thing until he decides to go all out on every play like he is paid to.

TEX, I'm afraid we are in agreement for once.

Texecutioner

05-05-2011, 02:50 PM

TEX, I'm afraid we are in agreement for once.

It isn't often, but we've agreed on Mario for a while actually.

CloakNNNdagger

05-05-2011, 03:17 PM

Where the heck is Mario going to drop 15 lbs. Dude is already tight at 290 lbs. He'll have to lose muscle to drop the weight.

I don't see how Mario could be 270-275. Even at 290-295 the dude has six-pack abs. You don't get that unless you are already pretty lean.

They want him to drop 20 pounds? Of muscle? From where? I am having a hard time buying that report. (FWIW, Connor Barwin told me that he wasn't asked to change his weight any).

http://www.whodeyfans.com/uploaded_images/Mario-703875.jpg

In looking for that image, I found this one. Would make for fun avatar:

http://i4.photobucket.com/albums/y134/doctorsauce/williams.jpg

Keep in mind that when most NFL players drop weight it is usually mostly fat. They usually try to drop weight by losing significant fat and gaining some muscle...............in order to become quicker and/or stronger.

As both of you have essentially stated, Mario's body fat content is probably as low as anyone's in the NFL. Therefore, I would add, he would be dropping weight on the basis of virtually all muscle. Translated>>>>>>>WEAKER and SLOWER.

Brisco_County

05-05-2011, 03:40 PM

They talked about Wade's intention to move Mario to OLB on some plays a couple of weeks ago, but with Watt in the picture, it frees him up even more. Here's why it's realistic to rush Mario from OLB:

Mario's 40 time: 4.65.
Clay Matthews' 40 time: 4.62.

Mario's first ten yards: 1.8
Clay's first ten yards: 1.58.

Who's going to stop a 6'7", 290 lbs man breaking out that fast?

rmartin65

05-05-2011, 03:45 PM

They talked about Wade's intention to move Mario to OLB on some plays a couple of weeks ago, but with Watt in the picture, it frees him up even more. Here's why it's realistic to rush Mario from OLB:

Mario's 40 time: 4.65.
Clay Matthews' 40 time: 4.62.

Mario's first ten yards: 1.8
Clay's first ten yards: 1.58.

Who's going to stop a 6'7", 290 lbs man breaking out that fast?

While the 40 time difference is not that much, that .22 second difference in the 10 yard is staggering. Also, CM3's combine 10 yard was 1.49, further exacerbating the difference. .22-.31 is a lot in the trenches.

EDIT: Upon further review (instigated by Honoring Earl), Mario ran a 1.6 10 yard. That is a lot more acceptable.

Honoring Earl 34

05-05-2011, 03:47 PM

They talked about Wade's intention to move Mario to OLB on some plays a couple of weeks ago, but with Watt in the picture, it frees him up even more. Here's why it's realistic to rush Mario from OLB:

7 guys. That's what it's all about. I mean killing QBs with 7 guys. THAT'S what it's all about.

I think the best thing Wade brings to the table is experience . He shouldn't be afraid to go after the QB like the last two guys . Being scared sets a bad tone for your team .

drs23

05-05-2011, 05:26 PM

I think the best thing Wade brings to the table is experience . He shouldn't be afraid to go after the QB like the last two guys . Being scared sets a bad tone for your team .

Exactly. Plus I don't see Wade being afraid to bring bus full of rushers. With all the speed aquired through the draft and 'if' Barwin can get close to where he was I'm cautiously optomistic that these guys will get 'em some QB.

76Texan

05-05-2011, 05:37 PM

Someone needs to explain to me Wade's "hybrid" 3-4. People keep saying its more of a 4-3 so even if they move Mario to "rush linebacker", the fact that it's still closer to a 4-3 means his position duties won't change too much and its more of a "title" change?

I believe when people talk about Wade's hybrid 3-4, it was meant to emphasize the difference at NT.
The NT is only resposible for one gap as opposed to the traditional 2-gap NT.

In Wade's 3-4, the normal alignment (base 3-4) looks pretty much the same as the Texans 4-3 the last couple of years when they had a LB on the line - Cushing, for example - the only difference is that the 4-3 WDE put a hand down, while the 3-4 WOLB play with hand off the ground.

The Texans also played the 3-4 from time to time the last couple of years (with Mario as a 3-4 DE sometimes, but mostly as a 3-4 OLB).

In Wade's system, the defense will go with a 4-man front on some passing downs, or in the nickel package (against the spread like what the Colts use quite a bit.) In this case, the OLB (Demarcus Ware for example) would put his hand down and become a 4-3 DE.

Therefore, I have been insisting that Mario's role shouldn't change.
He will still play some 4-3 DE, some 3-4 DE, and some 4-3 OLB just as he has done the last couple of years.
The number of snaps he will see at each position most likely depends on the progress of the rest of the rotation.
That is whay Kubiak said Wade will have plenty of options.

Also, note that JJ Watt did the same at Wisconsin; he played all those 3 positions (and on rare occasions at NT).

In fact, JJ Watt (who is about the same size as Mario) played many, many more snaps at OLB than Brooks Reed.
Reed played mostly as a 4-3 DE on the right side of the defense.
(The only game I've heard of him playing OLB was against Az St, in which I noticed him playing there for 4 snaps - He also played some at the Senior Bowl.)
I don't recall seeing him dropping back into coverage in about a dozen games that I've watched the last 2 years (I've noticed him when I scouted Mitchell the year before.)
So if people feels comfortable with Reed playing OLB, they should have no qualm about Mario doing it!

While his 10 yard split is good enough .... he's got a hitch in his get along when rushing from an upright position as noted earlier in the thread.

HJam72

05-05-2011, 05:44 PM

I don't see how Mario could be 270-275. Even at 290-295 the dude has six-pack abs. You don't get that unless you are already pretty lean.

They want him to drop 20 pounds? Of muscle? From where? I am having a hard time buying that report. (FWIW, Connor Barwin told me that he wasn't asked to change his weight any).

http://www.whodeyfans.com/uploaded_images/Mario-703875.jpg

In looking for that image, I found this one. Would make for fun avatar:

Oh, my God! They're going to cut it off just to make him faster! :foottap:

HJam72

05-05-2011, 05:57 PM

I believe when people talk about Wade's hybrid 3-4, it was meant to emphasize the difference at NT.
The NT is only resposible for one gap as opposed to the traditional 2-gap NT.

In Wade's 3-4, the normal alignment (base 3-4) looks pretty much the same as the Texans 4-3 the last couple of years when they had a LB on the line - Cushing, for example - the only difference is that the 4-3 WDE put a hand down, while the 3-4 WOLB play with hand off the ground.

The Texans also played the 3-4 from time to time the last couple of years (with Mario as a 3-4 DE sometimes, but mostly as a 3-4 OLB).

In Wade's system, the defense will go with a 4-man front on some passing downs, or in the nickel package (against the spread like what the Colts use quite a bit.) In this case, the OLB (Demarcus Ware for example) would put his hand down and become a 4-3 DE.

Therefore, I have been insisting that Mario's role shouldn't change.
He will still play some 4-3 DE, some 3-4 DE, and some 4-3 OLB just as he has done the last couple of years.
The number of snaps he will see at each position most likely depends on the progress of the rest of the rotation.
That is whay Kubiak said Wade will have plenty of options.

Also, note that JJ Watt did the same at Wisconsin; he played all those 3 positions (and on rare occasions at NT).

In fact, JJ Watt (who is about the same size as Mario) played many, many more snaps at OLB than Brooks Reed.
Reed played mostly as a 4-3 DE on the right side of the defense.
(The only game I've heard of him playing OLB was against Az St, in which I noticed him playing there for 4 snaps - He also played some at the Senior Bowl.)
I don't recall seeing him dropping back into coverage in about a dozen games that I've watched the last 2 years (I've noticed him when I scouted Mitchell the year before.)
So if people feels comfortable with Reed playing OLB, they should have no qualm about Mario doing it!

I gets that's wide we only need a wide-load instead of a XX wide-load (supposedly). :)

b0ng

05-05-2011, 06:01 PM

Someone needs to explain to me Wade's "hybrid" 3-4. People keep saying its more of a 4-3 so even if they move Mario to "rush linebacker", the fact that it's still closer to a 4-3 means his position duties won't change too much and its more of a "title" change?

Basically Wade's 3-4 system has the players on the DL (The 2 DE's and the NT) working just single gaps on the line while the LB's fill in the other gaps. For the most part what you get is a system where you have 4 guys (Which would be Mario included) with their hand in the dirt a lot (probably 40%) of the time. Since the DL only has to work one gap each, they don't have to be the gigantic monsters you'd normally see in a parcells 3-4.

EDIT: I can buy Mario at the OLB spot. I know people say "b-b-b-b-but Ware has to cover TE's!" but I seriously doubt Phillips is going to ask Mario to primarily cover RB/TE routes he's going to be rushing the passer and playing the run (Which are two things he was perfectly fine doing). I imagine they can fix his false step issue with his stand-up rushing moves.

Why wouldn't they put Mario at the SOLB spot since he's probably not going to be as big of a liability against the run as Barwin/Reed?

The Pencil Neck

05-05-2011, 06:14 PM

Someone needs to explain to me Wade's "hybrid" 3-4. People keep saying its more of a 4-3 so even if they move Mario to "rush linebacker", the fact that it's still closer to a 4-3 means his position duties won't change too much and its more of a "title" change?

In a "standard" 3-4, the linemen do more of an "absorb as many blockers as possible" thing to open up lanes for the linebackers to shoot the gaps and penetrate. The pass rush generally comes from the outside linebackers. Linemen in a standard 3-4 don't generally get that many sacks or even tackles and a lot of times, their function is to keep the linebackers clean.

In Wade's hybrid, the linemen do more penetrating, trying to shoot the gaps to create havoc in the backfield. This means that it could be easier for linemen to get to the linebackers but also that the linemen could get more sacks than in the normal 3-4. It also means that we may not have a big run stuffing NT in the middle of the line and that we'll go with a smaller, faster NT... like Earl Mitchell.

In a regular 4-3, the pass rushing specialists are usually the defensive ends (like Mario, Freeny, Peppers) while in a 3-4, the pass rushing specialists are almost always the outside (rush) linebacker, like Clay Matthews or Lawrence Taylor. These rush linebackers usually don't have to worry about dropping back into coverage and are usually "tweeners" being guys built between the standard 4-3 DE and the standard 4-3 WILL.

In Wade's hybrid, the 3 penetrating down linemen along with the rush linebacker(s) are all trying to get into the backfield and they're not trying to cover anyone. So... for Mario, the function is very similar: stop the run on the way to the passer.

In some situations, I expect to see Mario with his hand up but in most situations, I expect Mario to have his hand down. I think Mario is going to be an excellent 3-4 DE especially if the motor of guys like Cushing, Reed, and Watt start to rub off on him.

Ckw

05-05-2011, 06:15 PM

As someone who watched almost all of A&M's games this last year and the year before and saw A LOT of Von Miller (who most of us would have killed to have been able to draft), Mario can't be that much worse than Miller was in coverage. A&M specifically created (for their defense as they certainly weren't the first team to have this position) the Jack for Von because he was too small to play DE full-time but not good enough in coverage to play LB full-time. So they let him do what he does best: rush the QB full-time. Sometimes that came from the "DE position" and others he came from the "LB position".

I could see Mario doing much the same thing. He is simply a different type of Jack. He is plenty big to play DE, not good enough in coverage to play LB, but too good at blitzing the QB to exclusively play DE in a 3-4. This is exactly how Von Miller will be used as he leaves a lot to be desired in coverage but as he has shown in his college career, he is amazing at rushing the QB. Mario can do the same.

VTexan

05-05-2011, 06:22 PM

Mario is a prototypical 3-4 DE. Let's move him to OLB!

TimeKiller

05-05-2011, 06:25 PM

Bet not be no Hokey Pokey under that pile. We got kids watchin'

haha hey man, if they're regularly piled up on top of the QB....I'll be content to turn away from any hoking or poking!

steelbtexan

05-05-2011, 06:46 PM

What gar resonsibility did Ted Washington have in Buffalo under Wade? Jamal Williams in S.D. ?

I think Wade is going to pick up a vet NT on the cheap to play about 20 plays a game to go along with Mitchell and Cody.

It woudn't suprise me if Pat or Jamal Williams is a Texan next yr.

LikeMike

05-05-2011, 08:44 PM

Let`s just put Mario where he will play best - or where it helps the team most. One thing is for sure: on 95% of the plays he will rush the passer (or trying to stop the run) - on the remaining he might go into coverage - just for a change of pace. If I remember correctly he did so sometimes last season as well.

Hand up or hand down - he will do fine. I´m pretty sure that Wade will move his guys around a lot. Always look for the best matchups and the best ways to win. We have great flexibility now (with several guys that can play multiple positions) - let`s use it to our advantage.

hot pickle

05-05-2011, 10:35 PM

i love the move!!!! watch out peyton!!!!!

gtexan02

05-05-2011, 10:39 PM

Most of the time when the other team is in an obvious passing down, we're in nickel or dime package which means we'll have 4 down lineman anyway and Mario can rush the passer from that

b0ng

05-05-2011, 11:03 PM

NFLN completely shit on the idea of Mario moving to OLB.

Lucky

05-05-2011, 11:36 PM

3/4....4/3.....

Whatev.

Exactly. I've quit trying to figure out what Phillips is going to do with the defense.

Just make it work, Wade.

ArlingtonTexan

05-05-2011, 11:50 PM

NFLN completely shit on the idea of Mario moving to OLB.

Yes and NO. McGuiness(sp) acted like there was only one 3-4 even after Sapp told him that Ware basically never drops in coverage.

CloakNNNdagger

05-05-2011, 11:54 PM

This losing weight business and rushing the passer on most plays and dropping back in others has me more than just a little concerned. For one, I believe opponents will game plan their TEs to blow by Mario. If so, Mario will always have to have a "guardian angel" on the team pulled away solely there to watch his butt.

I hope that 5 games into the season, we aren't looking at this DE to OLB switch situation.

This losing weight business and rushing the passer on most plays and dropping back in others has me more than just a little concerned. For one, I believe opponents will game plan their TEs to blow by Mario. If so, Mario will always have to have a "guardian angel" on the team pulled away solely there to watch his butt.

I hope that 5 games into the season, we aren't looking at this DE to OLB switch situation.

Doc, I kept on telling you that the SOLB do not run with the TE.
There are 6 other defenders back there to cover 5 offensive weapons.
When Mario drops back in the 3-4 (which he did last year) would be just the same as he dropped back as a 4-3 DE many moons ago, into a short zone as to allow other guys to blitz.
You want the defense to disguise their blitzes and zone dogs, don't you?

CloakNNNdagger

05-06-2011, 12:18 AM

Doc, I kept on telling you that the SOLB do not run with the TE.
There are 6 other defenders back there to cover 5 offensive weapons.
When Mario drops back in the 3-4 (which he did last year) would be just the same as he dropped back as a 4-3 DE many moons ago, into a short zone as to allow other guys to blitz.
You want the defense to disguise their blitzes and zone dogs, don't you?

I certainly do. But I'm still wondering how really much more "unpredictable" this scheme is actually going to be than if Mario is DE and we have 3 fast OLBs on the field.

Brisco_County

05-06-2011, 12:26 AM

One of the reasons for this move could be Mario's durability. A 3-4 DE gets beat up, and Mario isn't long for that kind of wear.

I also don't have high hopes for this defense in the first half of the season because of the lockout. It'll be a big experiment anyway, so you'd might as well move the furniture around until you find what works.

The Pencil Neck

05-06-2011, 12:42 AM

I certainly do. But I'm still wondering how really much more "unpredictable" this scheme is actually going to be than if Mario is DE and we have 3 fast OLBs on the field.

If he's got his hand on the ground, you know where he is and you know that 99 times out of 100, he's coming; occasionally, he'll stand up from that position and back into a zone in a zone blitz situation. If he's got his hand off the ground, he doesn't have to come from the edge. He can start standing on one end and then move all the way across the line and pick any place to rush from. This screws the hell out of the blocking assignments. Or at least, it can if done right.

Also, even if he just stands up and holds his arms out every so often while someone else rushes, that will block certain passing lanes. And from that sort of position, he can even play as a spy and/or come on a delayed blitz once he sees a passing lane develop.

If done right, that can be genius. Bush tried it and it was never genius but that doesn't mean that it can't be.

The Pencil Neck

05-06-2011, 12:44 AM

One of the reasons for this move could be Mario's durability. A 3-4 DE gets beat up, and Mario isn't long for that kind of wear.

I also don't have high hopes for this defense in the first half of the season because of the lockout. It'll be a big experiment anyway, so you'd might as well move the furniture around until you find what works.

That's a good point. But I think that's also why they've been talking more about rotating Mario in and out more. Last year, it seemed they rotated Mario more than in previous years. There have been times when it seems like he never comes off the field while the defense is out there.

ArlingtonTexan

05-06-2011, 12:49 AM

I certainly do. But I'm still wondering how really much more "unpredictable" this scheme is actually going to be than if Mario is DE and we have 3 fast OLBs on the field.

The Dallas version of the Wade defense was not very "unpredictable" even in the years the defense was good. Almost no blitzing from the DBs with the two OLBs primarily rushing. His ideas is putting people in the best spots to do what they do best versus trick the offense.

Lucky

05-06-2011, 02:22 AM

McClain's article in the Chronic (http://www.chron.com/disp/story.mpl/sports/fb/texansfront/7552612.html):

The more tape Wade Phillips watches of Texans defensive end Mario Williams, the more he sees DeMarcus Ware.

Phillips, who's switching the Texans' defense to a 3-4, isn't comparing Williams to the Dallas Cowboys' Ware, an outside linebacker who is the NFL's pre-eminent pass rusher. But he is putting Williams at the same position that has enabled Ware to register an NFL-high 60½ sacks over the last four seasons and 80 in his six-year career.

"I think he's the rush guy we need," Phillips said. "You have to put him in the spot that gives him the best chance to rush the passer all the time and be your star rusher.

"He's got the talent. With him standing up, he lines up a little wider, and he's coming every time on a different angle. This gives him the chance to be the premier rusher, just like DeMarcus."
Phillips coached Ware for almost 3 1/2 years until being fired during the 2010 season.

"A lot of players have gotten a lot of sacks playing defensive end in our defense, but the Will (weak side) linebacker is the premier guy," Phillips said. "He's just too talented to not give him the opportunity to be the guy."
I'm just wondering when Phillips came to this conclusion. Before or after Aldon Smith went 7th to the Niners?

Mario digs it.

"I feel great about it," Williams said about moving to weak-side linebacker. "What an opportunity for me.

"Wade told me he'll put me in the best position to make plays, and the biggest thing that got my attention was when he said, 'Just go.' He wants me to get after the quarterback 90 percent of the time. He said, 'When the ball's snapped, I want you to go, be fast and get the quarterback.'
It allows the Texans to put their best players on the field. And Reed is insurance in case Barwin is not 100%. We'll see how it works (hopefully).

Corrosion

05-06-2011, 02:38 AM

I find it almost comical that we have discussed it all day long .... and then Mclame writes his article. Seems to be a common theme around here lately.

Dont think Ive seen a news outlet worse than the Crapical ever.

MojoX

05-06-2011, 03:59 AM

McClain's article in the Chronic (http://www.chron.com/disp/story.mpl/sports/fb/texansfront/7552612.html):

I'm just wondering when Phillips came to this conclusion. Before or after Aldon Smith went 7th to the Niners?

Yeah, this was my first thought, when I read the Phillips quote.

nytexan

05-06-2011, 06:19 AM

I find it almost comical that we have discussed it all day long .... and then Mclame writes his article. Seems to be a common theme around here lately.

Dont think Ive seen a news outlet worse than the Crapical ever.

Maybe if you'd been paying attention you would have learned that the whole thing came about in his blog when he said he interviewed Philips and it would come out in the Friday paper. Which it did, so the common theme appears to be you don't know what your complaining about.

mugrakers

05-06-2011, 06:58 AM

Maybe if you'd been paying attention you would have learned that the whole thing came about in his blog when he said he interviewed Philips and it would come out in the Friday paper. Which it did, so the common theme appears to be you don't know what your complaining about.

Completely agree. Also, McClain actually has quotes from Williams and Wade Phillips directly commenting on the subject matter of the article. I'm pretty sick of people bashing everyone and anyone except for their homeboy.

nytexan

05-06-2011, 07:38 AM

I don't see how Mario could be 270-275. Even at 290-295 the dude has six-pack abs. You don't get that unless you are already pretty lean.

They want him to drop 20 pounds? Of muscle? From where? I am having a hard time buying that report. (FWIW, Connor Barwin told me that he wasn't asked to change his weight any).

Not to disagree with you but I seem to remember reading where his playing weight during the season is around 275 so it's not that much of a reach and I think Philips said he currently weighs 285 so that's doable and makes the 275 playing weight sound reasonable.

If you remember during the draft news conferences Philips or his LB coach mentioned that Watt reminded him of Phil Hansen who played for the Buffalo Bills (my home town). Hansen played the strong side DE position with B.Smith on the other side. Smith was allowed to concentrate on rushing the passer while Hansen primary responsibility was to stop the run but he also had his 2 best sack year totals during Philips rein.

When you think of the draft now it seems reasonable to think that this was part of the plan all along and why Philips was so high on Watt and why they said he would start. They aren't going to use Mario in the passing lanes, his primary goal will be to cause havoc in the backfield by concentrating on nothing but rushing the passer and disrupting the running game. Anotonio Smith is going to play on the same side as Mario so that although he's technically a DE he's going to go up against the guard instead of the tackle because his responsibility will be to stop Mario.

It also makes sense now that that's why they kept the D.Line coach and changed the LB and Secondary coaches and why they said Cody and Mitchell will do fine as the NTs. Kollar teaches the an aggressive style of D.Line play which this defense will incorporate to force chaos in the backfield and hopefully cause turnovers. It seems to me that the key to doing this won't be Mario's issue but the fast development of Watt and the strong side LB's (Barwin and Reed). They seem to think that Ryans and Cushing will control the middle and actually one of them will secure the TE.

Will it work?? Only time will tell but everything they've said and done since Philips was hired and the draft confirms it, has led to this happening and been their mind set all along. JMHO.

Rey

05-06-2011, 07:51 AM

The Dallas version of the Wade defense was not very "unpredictable" even in the years the defense was good. Almost no blitzing from the DBs with the two OLBs primarily rushing. His ideas is putting people in the best spots to do what they do best versus trick the offense.

He may do things a bit differently than he did in Dallas now that he's an actual coordinator and has different personnel.

leebigeztx

05-06-2011, 08:55 AM

I personally dont think its a good idea to stand mario up at olb. He's so tall and lean that he play high with his pads. One of the great,subtle things about the 3 or 4pt stance is it helps your pad level. I for one think mario will be fine as a 3-4 end and get paid accordingly. He probably wont be a 14 sack guy, but he can consistently get 10 because he will be rushing against guards. When wade to slant inside, those guards are going to have hell keeping mario away from a sack.

Number19

05-06-2011, 09:17 AM

Where the heck is Mario going to drop 15 lbs. Dude is already tight at 290 lbs. He'll have to lose muscle to drop the weight.He plays at 290. During the off season he drops to 280, which is where he is right now. It shouldn't be hard at all to drop another 5 - 10 pounds and play at about 270 - 275. At this weight he'll gain some quickness.

badboy

05-06-2011, 09:20 AM

Every time I watched Mario go into coverage I think "this ain't gonna be pretty". He is big, strong and his job is to disrupt the QB. I don't care where he launches from, but I want this missile hitting the target. Wade is the expert but if this doesn't work (refer to Cushing at the Mike), I hope he adjusts more quickly.

Number19

05-06-2011, 09:21 AM

All of this weight issues regarding Mario whether he should lose weight or gain weight or whatever isn't the issue.

What the guy needs is an "effort" insert into his heart. If the guy just went full speed all of the time and got one of those "non stop motors" that people like to use as a term for guys that go all out on every play, then he'd be a lot more effective and he could actually dominate. He's never been that kind of player with an attitude like that though and college scouts as well as NFL scouts criticized him for that a lot before he entered the league and was drafted. He's been that guy since we got him. He needs an effort battery inserted into him is what he needs.

Putting him at LB or DE or wherever won't change a thing until he decides to go all out on every play like he is paid to. The idea of him being at LB is intriguing on paper, but realistically I don't think it will be an effective experiment because I don't think he'll be fast enough to get to the QB from that position. I could certainly be wrong though.Latest report is that Mario has talked to Wade and is really excited about the role he is being asked to play.

Number19

05-06-2011, 09:26 AM

While his 10 yard split is good enough .... he's got a hitch in his get along when rushing from an upright position as noted earlier in the thread.Wade thinks that Mario's footwork is correctable. This will be slowed because of the lock out.

Number19

05-06-2011, 09:44 AM

I've always had the impression that Mario has underperformed his potential, just a little bit. From today's Chronicle we see that over the past four seasons, Mario ranks sixth in sacks. But Abraham, Harrison, Cole and Mario are all right there together between 43 1/2 and 45 sacks. Jared Allen and Ware set themselves apart at 55 1/2 and 60 1/2 sacks.

So Ware is getting about 5 sacks a season more than Mario.

Barring injury, it's not hard for me to see Mario, in Wade's system, getting one additional sack every three games.

infantrycak

05-06-2011, 10:10 AM

Whatever. I stick by my prediction. Mario will never appear as a LB on the Texans' depth chart.

Ndevine7

05-06-2011, 10:18 AM

According to rotoworld

Defensive Wade Phillips expects weak-side linebacker Mario Williams to be in coverage "about 5 percent" of the time.
Phillips is comparing the 282-pound Williams to 262-pound All-Pro DeMarcus Ware, leading NFL Network -- among others -- to overreact to the position switch. Williams won't be used to cover Chris Johnson or Marcedes Lewis out of the backfield, though. Phillips will move him around, creating mismatches on the offensive line and using variations of the 3-4 where the weak-side linebacker essentially functions as a defensive end.

http://www.rotoworld.com/playernews/nfl/football

b0ng

05-06-2011, 10:38 AM

Yes and NO. McGuiness(sp) acted like there was only one 3-4 even after Sapp told him that Ware basically never drops in coverage.

They did a segment on the field where they showed clips of him. All I remember about the whole piece was they showed him sacking people, so I'm pretty sure I missed something but I was under the impression they would break down why they figured it wouldn't work.

That's right, Sapp kept saying "Force him to drop on 3rd down" over and over. Yeah they showed him sacking Peyton from the first game multiple times(1 of which came from an OLB spot). They shit on it because they don't think he's capable of learning how to OLB that spot in 1 off season, and has to learn coverage. Mostly them talking about him having to learn how to recognize run/pass (He does this already?) and they think he will take awhile to learn a new spot and will be ineffective.

I forgot that Mario got one of his sacks on Peyton from a 2 point stance in a 3-4 look (I think it might've been the SOLB spot).

EDIT: Both Mario and Wade are talking about him doing basically what he's been doing for the last 5 years, just from a standing position. He's proven that he can rush the passer standing or with his hand on the ground. I still maintain that it's odd that Phillips wants the two pure pass rush guys fighting for a spot on the other side of Mario since one would figure that side is going to get run to like 90% of the time. I'm going to laugh my balls off if mario goes to the probowl as an OLB (wishful thinking).

The1ApplePie

05-06-2011, 11:01 AM

This may be a spin job by Wade for not getting his guy in the draft (Aldon Smith).

He didn't exactly sound thrilled in his first press conference with Watt after the draft, but its hard to tell with Wade.

It could work very well. Ware never covers

HJam72

05-06-2011, 11:07 AM

I suspect that he will do the same thing he's always done, including that 5% of the time that he drops back into ZONE coverage, except that he will be standing up at the start of most plays. Just think of him as a standing DE.

They should make him cover AJ in man in practice. That'll get the weight down. :)

I hope you're right. If Mario doesn't "buy in", then the Texans will suffer.

I'd expect a four man line on 3rd and long. Nickel or dime.

Rey

05-06-2011, 06:45 PM

Whatever. I stick by my prediction. Mario will never appear as a LB on the Texans' depth chart.

Guess we'll have to see if they actually make that switch on the depth chart.

Not looking good for your prediction though...

Rey

05-06-2011, 06:49 PM

According to rotoworld

Defensive Wade Phillips expects weak-side linebacker Mario Williams to be in coverage "about 5 percent" of the time.
Phillips is comparing the 282-pound Williams to 262-pound All-Pro DeMarcus Ware, leading NFL Network -- among others -- to overreact to the position switch. Williams won't be used to cover Chris Johnson or Marcedes Lewis out of the backfield, though. Phillips will move him around, creating mismatches on the offensive line and using variations of the 3-4 where the weak-side linebacker essentially functions as a defensive end.

http://www.rotoworld.com/playernews/nfl/football

Then why not just stay in the 4-3?

All I'm hearing is Wade's 3-4 has variations. He plays his downlineman in nontraditional ways...They play more up field...like a 4-3...They are one gap players, not two gap...

Sounding more and more to me like Wades 4-3 has variations which incorporate some 3-4.

MojoX

05-06-2011, 07:19 PM

Then why not just stay in the 4-3?

All I'm hearing is Wade's 3-4 has variations. He plays his downlineman in nontraditional ways...They play more up field...like a 4-3...They are one gap players, not two gap...

Sounding more and more to me like Wades 4-3 has variations which incorporate some 3-4.

Yes, Phillips runs a one-gap scheme and not the pure, two-gap system 3-4 defenses are known for. He relies on a lot of concepts usually associated with 4-3 one-gap schemes.

Obligatory 3-4 defense link:

In contrast to the true 2-gap 3-4, there’s no clear “bubble” in a 1-gap front. The strongside end slides down in the guard-tackle gap and the nose tackle slants to the weakside center-guard gap. The weakside end may or may not be head-up on the tackle, sometimes aligning in a 5-technique. Moving the defensive lineman just a few inches changes the philosophy entirely. The diagram above shows an under-shifted 3-4, but over-shifted 3-4 fronts are also common.

By comparing the two 3-4 diagrams, it’s easy to see how the mind-set of the defensive linemen differs between the two flavors of 3-4. It’s clear that the two inside linebackers can be, if the linemen are disruptive at all, better protected from the blocks of interior linemen. You can see the lines of attack for a delayed ILB blitz or how each OLB might get a jump by shifting one defensive end to the outside of an offensive tackle.

The under-shifted 3-4 front, with or without a 2-gap end, is just one of many potential variations a coordinator may align for his front seven. In fact, a coach influenced by both flavors of the 3-4 might be tempted to meld both concepts with traditional 4-3 ideas and create a monster playbook with more than 50 fronts. And pull it off with amazing success.

I like it. This put's the most talent on the field possible for the Texans which is a must.
Envisioned starters in the front 7
DE: A. Smith
NT: Mitchel/Cody/Okoye
DE:Watt
OLB: Mario
ILB: DeMeco
ILB: Cushing
OLB: Reed/Barwin

Can't hate that lineup.

NICE! I can't wait to see these guys on the field!:bravo:

76Texan

05-07-2011, 12:13 PM

Then why not just stay in the 4-3?

All I'm hearing is Wade's 3-4 has variations. He plays his downlineman in nontraditional ways...They play more up field...like a 4-3...They are one gap players, not two gap...

Sounding more and more to me like Wades 4-3 has variations which incorporate some 3-4.

When you play standing up, you can move around any where along the line to give the offense some thing to think about.
Also, in some instance, you might be able to decipher the protection call.

b0ng

05-07-2011, 12:30 PM

Then why not just stay in the 4-3?

All I'm hearing is Wade's 3-4 has variations. He plays his downlineman in nontraditional ways...They play more up field...like a 4-3...They are one gap players, not two gap...

Sounding more and more to me like Wades 4-3 has variations which incorporate some 3-4.

Mario is going to have his hand off the ground quite a bit when he's pass rushing. The idea that the NT and both DE's are responsible for a single gap and the ILB's clean up what gaps they don't is what Phillips has used before in Dallas and in Buffalo. He's had huge NT's before (Williams and Washington) and have used them as 2-gap players but he has proven his defense effective with having 3 guys on the line who aren't monsters. In the 4-3's that we have run Mario gets about. . . I'd say 7/8ths of his total snaps from a 3 point stance. In this new defense I'm willing to bet that number goes down to 1/2 or less.

That's why you'd say that Wade Phillips's 3-4 has variations.

steelbtexan

05-07-2011, 12:38 PM

Yeah, this was my first thought, when I read the Phillips quote.

Yeah, Phillips/MW have sure changed their tunes. It seems as though catering to MW will never end. The Texans love fest continues. Typical Texans.

BTW, didn't Phillips reside over the worst defense in Cowgirls history? Were they predictable or unpredictable?

I'll tell you what they were. Terrible, But Phillips is going to change everything in one yr. LOL

I cant wait for a hard a** like Cowher to come in and change the culture of this club. Oh well maybe next yr.

steelbtexan

05-07-2011, 12:45 PM

Not to disagree with you but I seem to remember reading where his playing weight during the season is around 275 so it's not that much of a reach and I think Philips said he currently weighs 285 so that's doable and makes the 275 playing weight sound reasonable.

If you remember during the draft news conferences Philips or his LB coach mentioned that Watt reminded him of Phil Hansen who played for the Buffalo Bills (my home town). Hansen played the strong side DE position with B.Smith on the other side. Smith was allowed to concentrate on rushing the passer while Hansen primary responsibility was to stop the run but he also had his 2 best sack year totals during Philips rein.

When you think of the draft now it seems reasonable to think that this was part of the plan all along and why Philips was so high on Watt and why they said he would start. They aren't going to use Mario in the passing lanes, his primary goal will be to cause havoc in the backfield by concentrating on nothing but rushing the passer and disrupting the running game. Anotonio Smith is going to play on the same side as Mario so that although he's technically a DE he's going to go up against the guard instead of the tackle because his responsibility will be to stop Mario.

It also makes sense now that that's why they kept the D.Line coach and changed the LB and Secondary coaches and why they said Cody and Mitchell will do fine as the NTs. Kollar teaches the an aggressive style of D.Line play which this defense will incorporate to force chaos in the backfield and hopefully cause turnovers. It seems to me that the key to doing this won't be Mario's issue but the fast development of Watt and the strong side LB's (Barwin and Reed). They seem to think that Ryans and Cushing will control the middle and actually one of them will secure the TE.

Will it work?? Only time will tell but everything they've said and done since Philips was hired and the draft confirms it, has led to this happening and been their mind set all along. JMHO.

In a perfect world this all works out as you have stated.

Where was this aggressive style of DL play that you speak of last yr?

The reason Kollar stayed is that he was a highly paid AC that was still under contract.

steelbtexan

05-07-2011, 12:54 PM

I'd expect a four man line on 3rd and long. Nickel or dime.

Ryans, probably, or Cushing will have to come out in nickel situations.

Rey

05-07-2011, 01:34 PM

When you play standing up, you can move around any where along the line to give the offense some thing to think about.
Also, in some instance, you might be able to decipher the protection call.

On third and long. . .sure.

But on downs where running is possible you don't want guys moving around like that.

And I really doubt we'll see guys moving around like that a bunch anyways. But even if we did, you can still do that in a 43.

In the post you quoted I was talking about the gap responsibilities. The players who will be rushing most of the time. The way the dt's play. . None of that has anything to do with guys standing up or moving around.

Wades defense sounds like a 43 in a 34 alignment. I'm not complaining, just saying that's what it sounds like.

Rey

05-07-2011, 01:35 PM

Ryans, probably, or Cushing will have to come out in nickel situations.

I don't see a scenario where both those guys Aren't your starting lbs in the nickel.

Rey

05-07-2011, 01:42 PM

Mario is going to have his hand off the ground quite a bit when he's pass rushing. The idea that the NT and both DE's are responsible for a single gap and the ILB's clean up what gaps they don't is what Phillips has used before in Dallas and in Buffalo. He's had huge NT's before (Williams and Washington) and have used them as 2-gap players but he has proven his defense effective with having 3 guys on the line who aren't monsters. In the 4-3's that we have run Mario gets about. . . I'd say 7/8ths of his total snaps from a 3 point stance. In this new defense I'm willing to bet that number goes down to 1/2 or less.

That's why you'd say that Wade Phillips's 3-4 has variations.

Alignment wise he runs a 34. But gap wise it seems to be closer to a traditional 43.

I'm not worried about alignment as much as I am about responsibilities.

Gonna be fun to watch wade put it together.

Ndevine7

05-07-2011, 02:23 PM

from http://www.rotoworld.com/playernews/nfl/football

The Houston Chronicle's John McClain fully expects No. 11 overall pick J.J. Watt to be the Texans' starting left defensive end in Week 1.
It's not out of the question that Watt may have to compete a little with Antonio Smith for the job in training camp, but obviously a team that had one of the league's worst defenses in 2010 would not use such a high pick on a player it didn't think was ready to start. Smith will still be a factor along the line in 2011, as well.

With Mario moving to OLB who do they expect as the other DE starter if its not Watt and Smith

rmartin65

05-07-2011, 02:47 PM

from http://www.rotoworld.com/playernews/nfl/football

The Houston Chronicle's John McClain fully expects No. 11 overall pick J.J. Watt to be the Texans' starting left defensive end in Week 1.
It's not out of the question that Watt may have to compete a little with Antonio Smith for the job in training camp, but obviously a team that had one of the league's worst defenses in 2010 would not use such a high pick on a player it didn't think was ready to start. Smith will still be a factor along the line in 2011, as well.

With Mario moving to OLB who do they expect as the other DE starter if its not Watt and Smith

I think its the writer not understanding that Mario is at OLB. Watt and Smith at DE, with Okoye and a couple other guys serving as depth.

badboy

05-07-2011, 05:47 PM

I think its the writer not understanding that Mario is at OLB. Watt and Smith at DE, with Okoye and a couple other guys serving as depth.Exactly. As much as I like Watt, I'd be surprised if he beat out Smith by game 16 let alone game one. I feel Smith will have a very good year in 3-4. Watt should get some games starting on the line as you said 65.

b0ng

05-07-2011, 06:02 PM

Exactly. As much as I like Watt, I'd be surprised if he beat out Smith by game 16 let alone game one. I feel Smith will have a very good year in 3-4. Watt should get some games starting on the line as you said 65.

I don't think it's going to be a thing where he beats him out. I think it's possible that Watt and Smith are getting equal numbers of snaps. I'm just having a problem thinking of who else is going to be a DE besides Watt, Okoye and Smith. I think it'd be kind of silly not to have Mark Anderson as a pass rushing OLB and from what I've read Nading is going to be an OLB as well so that leaves. . . Tim Jamison? That pretty much pencils in Watt as a guy who is going to get a ton of reps whether he's good or bad unless they pick up some FA guys as well.

Lucky

05-07-2011, 06:14 PM

I'm just having a problem thinking of who else is going to be a DE besides Watt, Okoye and Smith.
There's still free agency, where a vet DE can be picked up. I'm having difficulty seeing Okoye as part of the equation, at all.

Texan4Ever

05-07-2011, 06:16 PM

Aside from JJ Watt, Antonio Smith, Mario Williams, Tim Bulman, and maybe Jarvis Green, who else do we have that could play the DE spot for our 3-4 defensive set?

IMO, we have enough OLBs to make this thing work, its the nose tackle spot that concerns me because we don't have anyone who could play that spot. Maybe we address this in FA if it happens but as of now, I'm more worried about the nose tackle spot than anywhere else on this defense.

Ndevine7

05-07-2011, 06:21 PM

I know its hard not to give up on okoye but the man is only 23 years old, slightly older then most nfl rookies. It is possible that wade feels he can work with him and turn him into what he was thought to be when he was drafted. Okoye is younger than brooks reed is

MojoX

05-07-2011, 06:57 PM

Yeah, Phillips/MW have sure changed their tunes. It seems as though catering to MW will never end. The Texans love fest continues. Typical Texans.

BTW, didn't Phillips reside over the worst defense in Cowgirls history? Were they predictable or unpredictable?

I'll tell you what they were. Terrible, But Phillips is going to change everything in one yr. LOL

I cant wait for a hard a** like Cowher to come in and change the culture of this club. Oh well maybe next yr.

Last I checked Texans love was why one would waste time on a Texans message board. I figure, given the better things in life we all have to do, we would have to actually like the team, for whatever reason, to invest time discussing it online, following team news, and watching games. I don't invest to hate.

When I look at Phillips record, I see good results out weighing bad. One or two bad years with the cowboys does not erase a whole career. Predictable or not, he gets results. Then it peters out. Oddly, this dude tends to turnaround defenses in a hurry. In a season? Dunno. Just glad this team finally has a competent defensive coach.

I choose to not cherry pick the data to fit my opinion. To each their own...

steelbtexan

05-07-2011, 07:34 PM

Last I checked Texans love was why one would waste time on a Texans message board. I figure, given the better things in life we all have to do, we would have to actually like the team, for whatever reason, to invest time discussing it online, following team news, and watching games. I don't invest to hate.

When I look at Phillips record, I see good results out weighing bad. One or two bad years with the cowboys does not erase a whole career. Predictable or not, he gets results. Then it peters out. Oddly, this dude tends to turnaround defenses in a hurry. In a season? Dunno. Just glad this team finally has a competent defensive coach.

I choose to not cherry pick the data to fit my opinion. To each their own...

Wasn't talking about fan/poster love. I was talking about the soft Texans team. EX. MW complains about Wade asking him to play the role Bruce Smith played. Then all of the sudden Wade and MW have this talk and Wade thinks MW is going to be a reincarnation of Ware.

Which is it this week Wade? Does MW take to many false steps and is too stiff to play OLB like you said earlier? Or is he this months story Wade? The next Ware? All of this waffling by Wade is confusing and doesn't bode well for the future.

MW could care less about the teams success. It's a contract yr and he wants to be put in a position to get big numbers = getting paid. That's what it's all about for MW and quite a few other players. Team be damned, Unfortunately this atmosphere has been fostered by BoB,Rick, and Gary for to long.

I was hoping Wade could change this culture. It may change with drafting guys like Watt,Harris,Reed and Keo. But I hope the vets like MW dont ruin the rookies desire to put the team 1st.

You're a true fan (me too) and this is a great thing. But you're being quite the homer (not that there's anything wrong with that) if you think Wade can fix the historically bad defense in 1 yr and it's not fairto Wade to expect him to fix everything. After a massive failure in Dallas you must have some doubts?

Hervoyel

05-07-2011, 07:42 PM

Hey, if Wade said it then it must be right and the Texans are going to the Super Bowl. Remember folks, "We're on the right track".

What other kind of behavior did you people expect from another coach who said whatever the owner wanted to hear to get the job?

MojoX

05-07-2011, 08:53 PM

Wasn't talking about fan/poster love. I was talking about the soft Texans team. EX. MW complains about Wade asking him to play the role Bruce Smith played. Then all of the sudden Wade and MW have this talk and Wade thinks MW is going to be a reincarnation of Ware.

Which is it this week Wade? Does MW take to many false steps and is too stiff to play OLB like you said earlier? Or is he this months story Wade? The next Ware? All of this waffling by Wade is confusing and doesn't bode well for the future.

MW could care less about the teams success. It's a contract yr and he wants to be put in a position to get big numbers = getting paid. That's what it's all about for MW and quite a few other players. Team be damned, Unfortunately this atmosphere has been fostered by BoB,Rick, and Gary for to long.

I was hoping Wade could change this culture. It may change with drafting guys like Watt,Harris,Reed and Keo. But I hope the vets like MW dont ruin the rookies desire to put the team 1st.

You're a true fan (me too) and this is a great thing. But you're being quite the homer (not that there's anything wrong with that) if you think Wade can fix the historically bad defense in 1 yr and it's not fairto Wade to expect him to fix everything. After a massive failure in Dallas you must have some doubts?
OK... I gotcha on the love thing....

According to McClain, Williams did not complain about any role with the team. He did not ask to not play DE or ask to be a LB; he was told he was not going to play DE. And instead of complaining, Williams has, thus far, embraced his new duties with enthusiasm. Link (http://blog.chron.com/nfl/2011/05/join-fridays-nfl-chat-at-1130-a-m/)

Phillips addressed the false steps issue. Read the article (http://www.chron.com/disp/story.mpl/sports/fb/texansfront/7552612.html). You can decide Phillips is lying if you wish, but the man stated very clearly that the more he studied film, the more he and his staff felt Williams is the guy for the ROLB spot and the hitch in the two point rush can be coached out as it was a bad footwork issue. I have no problem with the man changing his mind as he learns more information. I would have a bigger problem if he was so stuck in his ways that he wouldn't change it, despite evidence.

There is a lot to hate on this org for, but Williams, IMO, is not on the list.

MojoX

05-07-2011, 08:56 PM

Hey, if Wade said it then it must be right and the Texans are going to the Super Bowl. Remember folks, "We're on the right track".

What other kind of behavior did you people expect from another coach who said whatever the owner wanted to hear to get the job?

Who is claiming superbowl? How do you know Phillips is disingenuous? Where is the evidence for this stuff? Or is there no evidence and this is just hating (either just to do so or because of 10 years of sucktitude)? Let me know so I can stop wasting my time following a team of unqualified failures. There are 32 teams in the league, I'd rather follow the one where ownership, management and coaching have some integrity.

badboy

05-07-2011, 09:26 PM

I don't think it's going to be a thing where he beats him out. I think it's possible that Watt and Smith are getting equal numbers of snaps. I'm just having a problem thinking of who else is going to be a DE besides Watt, Okoye and Smith. I think it'd be kind of silly not to have Mark Anderson as a pass rushing OLB and from what I've read Nading is going to be an OLB as well so that leaves. . . Tim Jamison? That pretty much pencils in Watt as a guy who is going to get a ton of reps whether he's good or bad unless they pick up some FA guys as well.I just don't see Mario or Smith coming out of a game much & Watt should get those plays when they do. I'm not too worried about depth until injuries occur. ANderson would then move to DE. I'm much more concerned about the nose as the position will get a player beat up much more than DE.

b0ng

05-07-2011, 10:08 PM

^^^^Well Mario and Antonio aren't going to play the same spots so it's basically going to leave what I figure the most talented people being Smith and Watt unless somebody else steps up. Anderson being a 240 lb 3-4 DE scares me, he should be a WOLB.

There's still free agency, where a vet DE can be picked up. I'm having difficulty seeing Okoye as part of the equation, at all.

Talent-wise he should be cut but I imagine they are going to need warm bodies there above everything else if the Roster doesn't change much.

Hervoyel

05-07-2011, 10:46 PM

Who is claiming superbowl? How do you know Phillips is disingenuous? Where is the evidence for this stuff? Or is there no evidence and this is just hating (either just to do so or because of 10 years of sucktitude)? Let me know so I can stop wasting my time following a team of unqualified failures. There are 32 teams in the league, I'd rather follow the one where ownership, management and coaching have some integrity.

Wade Phillips is going to fix the defense and that's going to solve the Texans problems. That's the current Kool-Aid correct? We're on the right track came right out of our owners mouth and that was before he hired Wade to fix the defense so if we're drinking the juice and the owner is right then we're Super Bowl bound. Maybe not this year of course (got to keep your options open) but eventually and these are the people to get us there.

I mean, That is if you buy this bullshit.

Nobody knows that Phillips is disingenuous at this time. It's only a deep gut feeling on my part. Actually he might not be at all. I'm sure he's buying into the plan as he spins it.

So call it hating for 10 years of suckitude. Still history suggests I'm on to something and that moving Mario Williams to OLB will turn out just like every other slightly hair-brained scheme this franchise has ever cooked up.

gtexan02

05-07-2011, 10:51 PM

Man, if you can't be optimistic in May, this is going to be a very, very long season for you.

We have all of the fall to face reality

badboy

05-07-2011, 11:04 PM

Wade Phillips is going to fix the defense and that's going to solve the Texans problems. That's the current Kool-Aid correct? We're on the right track came right out of our owners mouth and that was before he hired Wade to fix the defense so if we're drinking the juice and the owner is right then we're Super Bowl bound. Maybe not this year of course (got to keep your options open) but eventually and these are the people to get us there.

I mean, That is if you buy this bullshit.

Nobody knows that Phillips is disingenuous at this time. It's only a deep gut feeling on my part. Actually he might not be at all. I'm sure he's buying into the plan as he spins it.

So call it hating for 10 years of suckitude. Still history suggests I'm on to something and that moving Mario Williams to OLB will turn out just like every other slightly hair-brained scheme this franchise has ever cooked up.
I don't think it is drinking KoolAide to realize that as a DC, Phillips has been wildly successful everywhere and there is no reason to think he has forgotten how. Most think this was a Wade Phillips draft and he allegedly got what he wanted. A fair evaluations shows good players in most positions and a good possibility that Kareem Jackson can be turned around. One simple instruction would be to stop his bump & run and play the WR. Yes it is too early to say the D will be much better but there is more arguement that it will than it will not.

The offense should have Gary's sole attention and with the confidence of Foster, the return of OD and the year that Dreesen had, this team could go deep in playoffs and that is without any significant free agents which I hope we get. There is beaucoup reasoning for a very good year. But this is from a guy who predicted 12-4 last season. Sigh.

MojoX

05-07-2011, 11:40 PM

Wade Phillips is going to fix the defense and that's going to solve the Texans problems. That's the current Kool-Aid correct? We're on the right track came right out of our owners mouth and that was before he hired Wade to fix the defense so if we're drinking the juice and the owner is right then we're Super Bowl bound. Maybe not this year of course (got to keep your options open) but eventually and these are the people to get us there.

I mean, That is if you buy this bullshit.

Nobody knows that Phillips is disingenuous at this time. It's only a deep gut feeling on my part. Actually he might not be at all. I'm sure he's buying into the plan as he spins it.

So call it hating for 10 years of suckitude. Still history suggests I'm on to something and that moving Mario Williams to OLB will turn out just like every other slightly hair-brained scheme this franchise has ever cooked up.

I don't know if this team is on the verge of winning with Phillips. I just know he is the best promise of a credible defense since Dom Capers. I don't know if that is going to lead to a winning team this season or next. So I have no projection or gut feeling for where the next season will lead; I just plan to watch it play out. I don't care for Kool Aid or Haterade.

No doubt this team has a long history of having no plan, hare-brained or not, work out for it. Hell, Ryans is coming off an Achilles injury and one of the top OLBs is also coming off a season ending injury. Another major injury to someone else in the front seven and they are forced to rely on the recovery of Ryans. Not good, IMO.

But I think Phillips brings the hope to the defense that Kubiak brought to the offense. Phillips has, in the past, improved defenses in a short span. So I am waiting to see if he can pull it off again. Along the way, I plan to improve my understanding of the game of football.

b0ng

05-08-2011, 12:03 AM

So call it hating for 10 years of suckitude. Still history suggests I'm on to something and that moving Mario Williams to OLB will turn out just like every other slightly hair-brained scheme this franchise has ever cooked up.

So give us your reasoning why it won't work other than "The Texans are doing it so it must fail". Thanks in advance.

Lucky

05-08-2011, 03:49 AM

So call it hating for 10 years of suckitude. Still history suggests I'm on to something and that moving Mario Williams to OLB will turn out just like every other slightly hair-brained scheme this franchise has ever cooked up.
History is on your side. But, the law of averages favor the Texans (blind squirrel eventually finds nut).

Maybe the Texans are the squirrel and Phillips is their nut? Maybe Mario is the squirrel and the OLB position is his nut? Or maybe, just maybe, The Texans fans are the squirrel and a playoff berth is the nut?

History vs. law of averages? Something's got to give. Unless both are trumped by Murphy's Law?

Can someone get me some more koolaid?

b0ng

05-08-2011, 03:56 AM

History is on your side. But, the law of averages favor the Texans (blind squirrel eventually finds nut).

Maybe the Texans are the squirrel and Phillips is their nut? Maybe Mario is the squirrel and the OLB position is his nut? Or maybe, just maybe, The Texans fans are the squirrel and a playoff berth is the nut?

History vs. law of averages? Something's got to give. Unless both are trumped by Murphy's Law?

Can someone get me some more koolaid?

Stop, there's still time to be completely pessimistic about the season. Training camp hasn't even started and we haven't been deluged in reports of how great we are going to be at every position. I mean Amobi Okoye hasn't even had his "Best training camp as a pro" yet. Peak kool-aid consumption happens about week 2 or so and you can easily post positive stuff then without getting called on it in January where we will ostensibly begin our 2012 offseason.

Hervoyel

05-08-2011, 11:15 PM

So give us your reasoning why it won't work other than "The Texans are doing it so it must fail". Thanks in advance.

Nope. I'm standing pat with "The Texans are doing it so it must fail" until they manage to succeed at something.

Wade's had great success wherever he's been. Of course a certain offensive line coach had never failed to run the football before arriving here and suddenly finding that the foundations of Reliant Stadium were laced with Kryptonite. Then to add insult to injury we then roll Foster out the year after he leaves and manage 3 fewer wins while seeing a running game the likes of which we had every reason to expect when he (Gibbs) arrived.

I've seen a Dom Capers coached team unable to defend. I've seen an Alex Gibbs coached offensive line unable to run the football consistently. I've seen a team try their hardest to do everything possible to the highest standard and still end up looking like cheap bastards half the time.

I see no reason to expect Wade Phillips to be able to coach a good defense here until it happens. I'm fresh out of optimism where anything with "Houston Texans" on it is concerned.

texanchris

05-09-2011, 08:34 PM

good article about what Phillips plans on doing with mario and the rest of the defense
http://www.houstontexans.com/news/article-3/Phillips-clarifies-plans-for-Williams-in-“5-2”-front/22e614bb-8639-4cee-834c-ee09ee32910a

badboy

05-09-2011, 09:47 PM

good article about what Phillips plans on doing with mario and the rest of the defense
http://www.houstontexans.com/news/article-3/Phillips-clarifies-plans-for-Williams-in-“5-2”-front/22e614bb-8639-4cee-834c-ee09ee32910aFifty-two. Hmm. Makes a lot of sense to me. Would think we'd need a whole lot better defensive backs than we have.

Rey

05-09-2011, 10:49 PM

Good call PN. I'm still worried about pass coverage though.

76Texan

05-10-2011, 01:01 AM

Good call PN. I'm still worried about pass coverage though.

Hey, what about me? :texanbill:

TPN has always been one of the guys who was willing to hear me out (and vice versa).

The Texans scheme up front was gearing closer toward Wade's, I had talked about it before last season (the 3-4) and even the year before that.
You can't help it when looking at the personnel and seeing Bum Phillips at TC year in and year out.

DocBar

05-10-2011, 05:45 AM

good article about what Phillips plans on doing with mario and the rest of the defense
http://www.houstontexans.com/news/article-3/Phillips-clarifies-plans-for-Williams-in-“5-2”-front/22e614bb-8639-4cee-834c-ee09ee32910aI'm still skeptical of this, but after reading the article, I feel a bit better. I want to see it on the field. Get this labor crap out of the way so players can start learning assignments and playbooks.

One of the biggest pieces of football news in this most unique offseason was the Houston Texans' decision to move Mario Williams from defensive end to linebacker as the team converts to a 3-4 defense under new coordinator Wade Phillips.

I recently got a chance to sit down with Bill Cowher, a man who spent his whole career looking for 3-4 pass rushers. So who better to examine building the defense than the former Steelers coach.

Cowher was quick to point out that Phillips is a very good coach and knows what he's doing. Even though Phillips has been running the 3-4 scheme for years, many have questioned the wisdom of moving Williams' 6-foot-6, 290-pound frame from end to linebacker.

However, Phillips has talked about the Texans playing more of a 5-2 defense, where five linemen will be used with two inside linebackers. In that scheme, Phillips has said Williams will often line up as the weakside linebacker, but basically still be an end playing on his feet more.

Cowher cited how effective Bruce Smith, who played under Phillips during the late stages of his time in Buffalo, was as a five-technique defensive end and produced pressure on the quarterback and has more sacks than any other NFL player in history. Cowher's point was that the defensive end in the 3-4 can still be a very dangerous player, and if the outside linebacker next to him is someone versatile like Darryl Talley was for Smith the defense works.

As Cowher pointed out, Williams will be rushing most of the time. So while Smith played end and Williams will now be a linebacker, it comes down to having other defenders who can be that Talley and drop back in coverage and do some of the dirty work as Williams goes full out after the quarterback. As far as the ground game, Williams is going to have to learn to protect his legs and understand on run plays he has a lot of surface area that blockers can get to as compared to coming out of a three-point stance over the tackle.

While Cowher felt Williams can make the transition, I got the feeling he might not have done it himself, saying "I would be very careful about it."

badboy

05-20-2011, 09:44 PM

I think MArio's success will depend on the DEs & Nose tying up the line and how effective the other OLB (Reed or Brawin)will be. There should not be much between Williams and the QB unless the O pulls someone to spy.

Ryan

05-21-2011, 04:14 AM

Cowher chimes in.

Man, it's going to be an easy transition for him next season. ;) The 3-4 will already be in place! (Not sure if him and Wade run the same technique though)

IDEXAN

05-21-2011, 08:39 AM

Sounds like Mario IS NOT going to play the same position that Bruce Smith did for Wade in Buffalo, as Smith was a down lineman playing a 5-tech while Mario will be a LB. Secondly the 5-2 is basically the same as the 3-4 as there's 3 down linememan and 4 LBs in each formation, the only difference being the OLBs play up, right on the los in the 5-2.
(((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((
OK but hold on because this comment from another website says the down lineman inside of Mario would not be a 5-tech, but instead a 3-tech. Well that should make Antonio Smith happy. Dang I'm really getting anxious to see exactly what Wade is going to use and who plays where, but with this lockout they are talking months before we get a look:
"Bramel goes on to point out, "It's somewhat of a semantic argument because there will be four players in a two-point stance behind three down defensive linemen, but this front is more like a 4-3 than a 3-4 because of how the three linemen line up. The lineman to the inside of the Elephant rusher is aligned as a 3-technique, something that you won't see in a base 3-4 set. This look is essentially a 4-3 Under with a standup defensive end."
http://www.battleredblog.com/2011/5/20/2181540/how-i-learned-to-stop-worrying-and-love-the-elephant#storyjump