Agnostics, Atheists, Heathens - Choose A Side.

Originally posted by CaDreamer
being an atheist is already taking a stand, making a choice. Making the decision to call oneself an atheist, is a decision to never take sides because
ALL of those "sides" are all false and misleading.

i choose none.

Love is not false or misleading... It will show you truth in everything

I dont know what pagans you are talking to but all the ones I know, including myself, think we are going to a happy place. Unless you can clarify what
you mean.
If I had to make a choice.....I will go with the Native American religions.
Or Buddhist.

as far as how other religions treat us, its always been crappy and that will never change.

Originally posted by CaDreamer
being an atheist is already taking a stand, making a choice. Making the decision to call oneself an atheist, is a decision to never take sides because
ALL of those "sides" are all false and misleading.

i choose none.

Love is not false or misleading... It will show you truth in everything

Just thought i'd add that

look at the history of religion...love is not really in their vocabulary, it is only lip service... a long history of violence and fascism, not love,
they are, rather, cultist mobs.

love does not = religion.

read the old testament, read the wars of the Jews by Flavious Josephus. etc. educate yourself.

Originally posted by CaDreamer
being an atheist is already taking a stand, making a choice. Making the decision to call oneself an atheist, is a decision to never take sides because
ALL of those "sides" are all false and misleading.

i choose none.

Love is not false or misleading... It will show you truth in everything

Just thought i'd add that

look at the history of religion...love is not really in their vocabulary, it is only lip service... a long history of violence and fascism, not love,
they are, rather, cultist mobs.

love does not = religion.

Who said anything about religion... He stated that all sides are false, i just corrected him... But i said nothing about religion

Originally posted by jmdewey60
I would never take a side and would reject any religion offered to me.
If they put a gun to my head and said I could live if I just join a church, I would say, Pull the trigger.

What if no one was doing that. But the people around you it was happening too. Join my religion, join my cult, join my political cause...or else.
Would you step up, even if you didn't have the same views as the people around you? What if they wouldn't stand up for you? Would you do it
anyways?

There is this tax system where organizations get a 501c3 or whatever status and then they have moderators in the church like you
would have moderators on an internet discussion forum to where if you do take a stand for right, then you will be silenced. Joining any such
organization is sharing in the evil of the world by not standing up to denounce the evil in it. Joining is your ticket to hell.

Originally posted by XelNaga
this is getting obnoxious. there is no reason for the consistency of threads like this all of which are blatantly bashing atheists and agnostics. we
can't post anything involving marijuana, but its ok for some bible thumpers to tell us were bad people and going to hell? wtf...

Even if/when
there is truth in that statement, most outright Christians aren't interested in telling you that. But your reaction is a self-fulfilling prophecy.
You will hear what you insist upon hearing from people. You will force that conversation from people, even against their will by insisting that this
is solely what they believe in.

why do we need to choose a side? why cant we just be who we are and believe what we wish to? none of this should
matter and this kind of stuff shouldn't be on ats anymore... its causing more of a divide (at least in my opinion) then bringing forth any type of
understanding.

The OP noted that most people already have a secondary choice. You do not, so you'd remain what you are even in a
theoretical land of what ifs (Candy Land, whatever.). The OP also noted that most of those who did have a secondary choice, their frequent motive was
to choose their "birth religion". Which is pretty dead-on with a few psychological beliefs out there. You either embrace what you were taught from
birth or you rebel from what you're taught from birth, and there's no surprise that there's some partial longing to get back to a nostalgic
childhood.

i am an atheist thus have no side and prefer to keep it that way because my spiritual beliefs DO NOT define who i am as a person
and that is what you religious folk need to understand.

If you are an atheist and insist you do not have any spiritual beliefs, then
technically this is so, but the following contradicts the heart of this message:

also: atheism is not a religion. it is a belief, a philosophy
if you will just like how Confucianism is not a religion, but a philosophy

A belief system or philosophy that you truly believe in will have
an effect on the choices you make in life. You're not likely to spend your Sunday mornings in a Church Building because you believe it to be filled
with people believing in the unreal. So your Atheism does affect what you do. Does it influence every single thing you do? No, but each Atheist has
varying levels of what they allow their beliefs to influence, just like every other belief system. That's the whole point to a philosophy or a
religion--to live life by what the philosophy influences. There's no point in being an Atheist if you still have to get up and go to Sunday morning
Services, or turn the other cheek (going beyond what is necessary) or give up control to another being.

Originally posted by Aeons
What is it that you think these people are noticing, and what is it that is missing from the non-religious/non-traditional choice that makes people
sure that they may not have as an option being committed to a secular or multi-religious national interest?

Well, one thing that's easy to
get Atheists and Agnostics alike to point out is that for society to function, you have to have a basic moral code to society. The problem is whose
authority is this moral code on? The will of the majority? Mob rule never works. To the point where our freedoms don't trample on other's rights?
Well, who is defining the rights? It is far simpler to have a "Creator Stamped moral code" than it is to muddle through it all on our own. And
from most of these people I hear from such people is, "I'm not bound by any of these moral codes, but it is easier to function when other people
are."

Originally posted by Aeons
I want some people to fess up and commit to saying it outloud. I think that they are afraid of saying it because it is unpolitical correct, or it may
show that they are not 100% "committed" to their usual political beliefs as others would like them to be.

Everyone who is of a sound mind
ought to have doubts and weak moments. To be an open minded person, you've really got to allow for the chance that you can be wrong, whether or not
your beliefs ever change.

But I suspect that there are more of them than are letting on. I think that yelling them down, by their own, is preventing people from seeing
that there is a problem that needs to be addressed. They know that what they are going to get is "the problem is you" and so they remain quiet, and
make their secret deals with themselves while shaking their heads at the people that they mostly agree with but who are too radical in their cultural
... revolution? blindness? dedication to the point of silliness? I'm not sure what the head shake they give is about.

The saying goes,
"To be truly wise, you've got to realize how little you truly know." When you get to the point of such humility, often what accompanies it is a
whole world of doubts. But at the same time, there are still plenty that are fully committed. The things is, those who doubt are not likely to lay
it out here because this place isn't a bosom buddy here to deal with the monster under your bed.

I suspect that some of them have figured that the sociopolitical religious people that they are most aligned with right now, would push them in
front of a bus.

And some would throw themselves in front of the bus in effort to save them as well.

Also, another thing that is an issue is that for a lot of these people their beliefs actually do define what they live their life by. For an Atheist
who sleeps around all over the place, that has no problem backstabbing their coworkers (not all do, drr!), coming face to face with a Creator God
means that all these things they actively did because they believed they had the freedom to? They're gone. A lifetime of habits to unlearn.
Potentially a lifetime of guilt to come to grips with--that's the biggest thing I hear from anyone who's anti-Catholic, specifically: "I like my
religion with less guilt." or "I'm not going to live my life in guilt." They are worried about the guilt each faith brings. Which is depressing,
since I still can't find the scripture that says I ought to live in guilt the rest of my days--and I've been through the dang book at least 3 times
in my life.

I know that the same thing comes with Christianity and losing faith in it. I've been there. "You mean I don't have to put other people
first?"

Originally posted by Akragon
I leave people to their beliefs, if you do not agree with what i believe... so be it... i love you just the same. Its not my place to judge others.
I would die to protect anyone from harm, but theres other ways around such things...

Love solves all problems, you can not attack someone who loves you, but if it does happen.. so be it. If i am to die protecting another person from
harm.... then that is my fate. But again i would do everything in my power to solve the conflict before it came to that

I guess you could say I'm Pagan, however if I have to choose a side I'm Norse. My allegiance is with Loki, it is said that great earthquakes are the
result of Loki writhing violently bound by the entrails of his sun when the venom of a snake hung above him dripped onto his face. You hear that ?
When Loki's in pain, he writhes so violently the Earth quakes !!! Jesus just hung quietly, disgraced by his human brothers.

I think I understand what you are saying/asking as I have done the same thing in my own life.

I was raised in Christian beliefs, not the kind of household that went to church or actually practiced the faith...just more of an identifying
label.

I eventually came to reject this as an adult and sought out other faiths and other paths of belief. Until about the past yr or so I was identifying
myself as a Heathen, I had found most of the pagans and agnostics I knew were far more fair and non judgmental than any Christian I had ever known.

As the current events of the day have played out over many many days and I see things coming that I am not looking forward to but do believe are all
necessary.... I have found myself more and more frequently requestioning myself and my core beliefs.

I never stopped believing in a higher power/energy/creative force of some kind but I have never been a fan of any sort of organized religion. Still,
just today in fact, I took myself back to a Church. It was a 7th Day Adventist Church. I readily admit I have no interest in joining this church.
But what I do want to do is find other people with similar views as my own. Call it a tribal need if you will.

I think after reading your OP and a few of the replies this is what you are questioning. Why do people have a need to be tribal when the chips are
down, or foreseen as perhaps going down?

My personal belief is at the end of the day the *sides* are going to boil down to *God*. Look at all the wars and conflicts over the
centuries....While I would say most have been about the politics of the day, many have used the guise of Religion as their cover.

I do believe the day is coming when EVERYONE will have to pick *a side* whether they themselves believe or agree with all the specifics is sort of
pointless.... While I do not agree with all of this church I attended, or even Christianity as it exists today, I do believe this is how the lines
will and are being drawn. My search and my choice is to be amongst others I can live with. I do not need to agree with all of them or all of their
opinions.

I do need other people though to continue forward in any kind of semblance of contentment, comfort and security.

As more of the future plays out I may begin to identify myself differently as well. Currently I check *Other* lol when choosing this spiritual
identifier.

I find this an interesting thread so I hope I have contributed in some helpful way

The problem with choosing sides, is that it becomes inherently exclusionary; by choosing one side, you cut yourself off from other influences that are
potentially valuable.

I will say that I do not identify as Christian any more. I was treated exceptionally badly by Christians for a number of years, and I slowly came to
view Pauline Christianity as an involuntary religion, based on guilt and fear. That was no longer something that my conscience could allow me to be
part of.

I used to feel that I had a strongly adversarial mental relationship with Neo-Atheism, although my stance has been gradually softening on that score,
in recent years. My main grievance with some of the Atheists I've encountered is that, while many of them claim reverence for the scientific method,
they very often then go on to view the centralised "scientific community," as their sole authority for knowledge, rather than actually attempting to
conduct experiments and discover the truth of things themselves.

Jacques Fresco, as one example, is a very strong Atheist; yet to a certain extent he still managed to earn my respect, because he related numerous
stories of how he engaged in practical investigation of the things which he said he no longer believed in. To me, there was thus a genuinely
empirical, experiential basis for his skepticism; however among most Atheists, that is not the case. They generally seem to rely on information that
comes to them second hand.

So my criticism of them is not actually their use of science; it's the fact that in practical terms, most of them don't actually use it themselves
at all. They just rely on other people who do. Science to me does not have to be that way. If you learn the method, pretty much anyone can conduct
their own experiments. Back when Galileo was alive, he was the fringe heretic for challenging the Church about the Earth orbiting the Sun. Now, on
the other hand, it's the "scientific community," themselves who are the centralised, discriminatory priesthood, and people who have theories such
as this are seen as fringe kooks, when they are simply attempting to go where the evidence leads.

On another related point, I will claim some degree of general opposition to the political and economic right wing, as exemplified particularly by the
American Republican party.

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