when you expel a group of people, you obviously do not care about what happens to them. it's just an alternative to extermination. if their own kind does not want them back, I think the result will be very grim for them.

If Bulgaria is willing to take back the criminal French gypsies then why wouldn't Turkey accept back their own people who have had the privilege of studying at European schools? The failures will still be failures but that doesn't matter, there's always plenty of room in Turkish prisons. The third and fourth generation immigrants are likely much more educated than their predecessors so I think Turkey won't mind taking them back in the end. Hell, any male with a Turkish passport still has to do military service in Turkey (or buy his way out) Whether they have lived all their life in a different country doesn't matter. So in that sense it wouldn't be so strange anyway.

What Wolfgang said was "bastardized"- as in half-German, for instance. Should there be place for half-Germans in Turkey?

As long as they're not Kurdish I guess it's ok.

Seriously: I don't know. It's more of a legal matter than anything else, so it usually depends on how far naturalized somebody is. I don't live in Germany so I don't know how the naturalization system works there. In the Netherlands if a child is born from two nationalities he automatically gets two nationalities and also two passports. He enjoys both the privileges and both the requirements of the two nationalities (for instance Turks who are born in Europe are still required to do military service in Turkey, although most pay it off with just a small fine) There are a lot of other countries that also allow two nationalities, in some the person will automatically lose his second nationality after being fully naturalized (whatever that means in that country) while other countries don't allow people to lose their second nationality and they will forever have two. Based on those laws it would be possible to return people to their original countries but it depends from country to country. And it gets even trickier when the EU is involved but luckily the EU doesn't have that much power yet (compared to what they want)

It's funny because in my country having two passports is generally seen as an obstacle to fully integrating. But fully naturalizing people could be a legal obstacle to sending them back some day. As usual it's hard to please the crowd...

"Should there be place for half-Germans in Turkey?"anatolian turks are a mix of populations anyway. they consider themselves white too ever since ataturk (even though they are not considered pure enough by european standards), they have absorbed much europoean blood during the ottoman empire because of harems filled with balkan slave women. I do not think turkey would have a problem with that if the choice was take them back or they are wiped out.I think even considering minorities in germany is absolutely criminal when you know what has happened and what continues to happen to the indigenous wends (sorbs) who have been their before the germans and are still there. they face germanization (which would be the death of their culture) everyday and they are not foreigners.

"If Bulgaria is willing to take back the criminal French gypsies"the bulgarian people do not want them back, their government just like all modern governments ignores the will of the people. gypsies are not welcome anywhere in europe, especially places where there's lots of them like the balkans. gypsies really do need their own state. europe is the smallest of all continents, so preferably in the americas where the indigenous do not exist anyway.

This week, results of the first study comparing opinions of Germans, Turks and Turks living in Germany were announced. There were some grounds to celebrate integration but there were also problems. Many immigrants say they feel out of place in both countries, almost half want to return home and Turkish youth are becoming more conservative than their elders.

There are almost three million Turkish people living in Germany and, according to a new study released this week, almost half of them intend to return to Turkey at some stage. And interestingly, more younger Turks want to return to Turkey than their elders.

This is despite the fact that almost two thirds of respondents to the study (61 percent altogether)-- one of the first polls to compare the world views of around a thousand individuals from Turkey, Germany and the Turkish population living in Germany -- had been born in Germany or had been living in the country for over 30 years. Turks are the largest ethnic minority in Germany and make up almost 4 percent of the country's population. Yet only 21 percent of those polled feel happy to call Germany home.

In fact, over half of the Turks living in Germany (62 percent) said that when they are in the country they felt like Turks. But when they were in Turkey they felt like Germans. A significant percentage of the migrants (45 percent) felt that they were not wanted in Germany and only 54 percent believed that Turks and Germans had the same educational opportunities.

Torn between two worlds. Humanists cry out: "There should only be one world!" Realists know there isn't, realists know that the more people try to create one world the more friction there will be and the more cultural differences will become painfully obvious. Realists said this 20-30 years ago and they were called racists. Now, because people are actually listening to them, they are called populist racists. But humanists are the real racists because they don't want to see the differences between races, now that is racist! In their perfect future there will be only one gray race, only one consumerist culture - ein volk, ein reich, ein humanistische diktator! (and that concludes my Godwins for today)

I do not think turkey would have a problem with that if the choice was take them back or they are wiped out.

As the matters are turning out, that situation is not very probable. I agree with your motives, but the forces underlying the momentary situation are still too strong to surrender. If they collapse soon, the result will be unpredictable, even if it's easy to imagine it will bring more miscegenation.

Bastard states would be the solution if anyone was willing to surrender territory. This scenario could be possible through armed conquest though, the prerequisite being the conquering force's interest in forming such states.

I don't think there will be any escaping a future where part of the US opts to continue living in a multiracial society. Some version claiming to be in the spirit of America as we know it now. These people would probably face immigration from those kicked out of Europe if they like it or not.

The mantra of "they're part of us, they belong here" is being repeated everywhere by the most socialist people (including Obama) And it's usually the "Christianity-Judaism-Islam" connection they'll speak of. Should tell you something about how Islam will eventually be tolerated in the west: as another form of secular humanism.

At Potsdam, Germany, this weekend, Chancellor Angela Merkel told the young conservatives of her Christian Democratic Union that Germany’s attempt to create a multicultural society where people “live side by side and enjoy each other” has “failed, utterly failed.”

Backing up her rueful admission are surveys showing 30 percent of Germans believe the country is overrun by foreigners. An equal number believe the foreigners come to feed off German welfare.

Merkel had in mind the Turks who came as gastarbeiters, guest workers, in the 1960s. Some 2.5 million now live in Germany.

Arabs and East Europeans have come more recently. One survey puts the Muslim population at 5 million.

“Multikulti is dead,” says Horst Seehofer of Merkel’s sister party, the Christian Social Union of Bavaria. He wants no more immigration from “alien cultures.” Turks and other Muslims are not learning the language, he contends, not assimilating, not becoming Germans.

Awareness of deep differences with Turkish neighbors became acute for Germans when, grieving in solidarity with America after 9/11, they learned that Turkish sectors of Berlin were celebrating Islam’s victory with barrages of bottle rockets.

Like all of Europe, Germany grows nervous.

This summer, Thilo Sarrazin, who sat on the Bundesbank board, published “Germany Abolishes Itself,” which sold 300,000 copies in seven weeks. Sarrazin argued that Germany’s Muslim population is intellectually inferior and unable or unwilling to learn the language or culture, and mass immigration is destroying the nation.

No rightist, but a stalwart of the socialist party, Sarrazin was forced out at the Bundesbank. Half his socialist party stood by him.

Across Europe, there is a resurgence of ethnonationalism that is feeding the ranks of populist and anti-immigrant parties that are gaining respectability and reaching for power.

Austrian nationalists triumphed in 2008 when the Freedom Party of Joerg Haider and the Alliance for the Future of Austria together took 29 percent of the vote. The Swiss People’s Party of Christoph Blocher, largest in Bern, was behind the successful referendum to change the constitution to outlaw minarets and prohibit the wearing of burqas.

Hungary’s Jobbik Party, which to the Financial Times “sits squarely in Europe’s most repulsive arch-nationalist tradition and which blames Jews and Roma for the hardships of other Hungarians,” pulled 17 percent of the vote this year and entered parliament with 47 seats, up from zero seats in 2006.

The Sweden Democrats just captured 6 percent of the vote and entered parliament for the first time with 20 seats, joining right-wing folk parties in Norway and Denmark.

Geert Wilders, a rising figure in Dutch politics, was charged with hate speech for equating Islam and Nazism. In June, his Freedom Party swept past the ruling Christian Democrats, who lost half of their strength in parliament. “More security, less crime, less immigration, less Islam — that is what the Netherlands has chosen,” said Wilders.

In France, President Nicolas Sarkozy — one eye on Jean-Marie Le Pen’s National Front, the other on the 2012 elections — rejecting cries of “Nazism” and “Vichyism,” is dismantling Gypsy camps and deporting Gypsies to Romania. Milan is now following the French lead.

What is happening in Europe partakes of a global trend. Multiracial, multi-ethnic, multicultural nations are disintegrating.

Russians battle ethnic Muslim separatists in the North Caucasus. Seventy percent of Americans support an Arizona law to identify and expel illegal aliens. Beijing swamps the homelands of Tibetans and Uighurs with Han Chinese. India fights secession in Kashmir, Nagaland and the Naxalite provinces.

“Wars between nations have given way to wars within nations, ” said Barack Obama in his Nobel Prize address.

Ethnonationalism tore Mikhail Gorbachev’s Soviet Union and Josip Tito’s Yugoslavia into 22 separate nations, and is now tugging at the seams of all multi-ethnic states. Globalism is in retreat before tribalism.

But the awakening of Europe’s establishment to the shallow roots of multiculturalism will likely prove frustrating and futile.

With her fertility rate below replacement levels for 40 years, projected to remain so for the next 40 years, Germany will lose 12 million of her 82 million people by 2050. Her median age will rise eight years to 53, and 40 percent of all Germans will be over 60.

Germany’s problem is insoluble. She is running out of Germans.

Yet if her welfare state is to survive and her industries are to remain competitive, Germany will need millions of new workers.

Where are they to come from, if not the Third World? For not one European nation, save Iceland and Albania, has had a birth rate for decades that is not below zero population growth.

Baby boomer Europe decided in the 1960s and 1970s it wanted La Dolce Vita, not the hassle of children. It had that sweet life. Now the bill comes due. And the bill is the end of their tribes and countries as we have known them.

Old Europe is dying, and the populist and nationalist parties, in the poet’s phrase, are simply raging “against the dying of the light.”