I won't try explaining my beliefs to you guys, it's not my place to push my religion on you or anyone else for that matter. The word "FAITH" means exactly that. To see god and his works you must first recognize his existence and acknowledge his works.
I've walked in the light and in the darkness. I will not go into detail but trust me this is a fact. I am a cancer survivor and I've seen death up close and personal. When you eventually meet the cold dark reality of your own mortality you'll realize what faith is and your views might change.
The thing is I do not believe we will be judged, or burn in hell, or move into a golden house on a golden street yadda yadda yadda, I believe when we die we move to a higher plane of consciousness. Why do I believe this? Because I've been there.....twice. There IS more to come after you die.
And at the very least even the atheists have to admit that holy books like the bible, the Koran, the Talmud, etc give us all a set of values and rules to live by that make the world a better place.
Human nature is proof of gods existence. We can explain everything except why we do what we do. Is it just some weird chaotic bunch of electrical signals sent to the brain, or is there something more at work there?

I won't try explaining my beliefs to you guys, it's not my place to push my religion on you or anyone else for that matter.

Understand that what I will say below is not an attempt to take away your faith... you're entitled to it and that's all good.

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The word "FAITH" means exactly that. To see god and his works you must first recognize his existence and acknowledge his works.

You are injecting the belief of your personal God into things we know come about from very natural means. A leaf falls from a tree, "See... God did that." Which is fine if that's what you want to believe, but it isn't factual or real just because you believe it is.

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I am a cancer survivor and I've seen death up close and personal.

Good for you. I hope you're recovering well.

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When you eventually meet the cold dark reality of your own mortality you'll realize what faith is and your views might change.

Understand this is one of the primary powers over the mind that religion has. It helps ease people's fear of their own mortality. It makes the religious less afraid of death because they believe that it isn't really an end but a new beginning. Which is a nice idea, but there is nothing substantial to prove that it's real. On the negative side this is what also makes suicide bombers not afraid to blow themselves up... because of that promise of a new beginning in paradise.

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The thing is I do not believe we will be judged, or burn in hell, or move into a golden house on a golden street yadda yadda yadda, I believe when we die we move to a higher plane of consciousness.

That is a very non-christian outlook. What faith do you conform to?

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Why do I believe this? Because I've been there.....twice. There IS more to come after you die.

If you're talking about a near death experience there are several very natural elements that can cause this. 1. Simply the brain running with little to no oxygen can cause an hallucination. Such an experience can seem real because it is like an extremely vivid dream. One in which the dreamer is not aware it is a dream. And 2. There is some research that shows the pineal gland is capable of producing a substance called Dimethyltryptamine or DMT. It is basically a psychedelic hallucinogen that creates a powerful hallucination. Most accounts of recreational DMT use have very closely mirrored near death experiences. Just like your bowels release at death... perhaps also does your pineal gland which floods your brain with DMT creating a vivid near death experience.

I know... it sucks the magic right out of it and makes it seem very cold and clinical. But reality is often like that.

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And at the very least even the atheists have to admit that holy books like the bible, the Koran, the Talmud, etc give us all a set of values and rules to live by that make the world a better place.

Not true. More people fight and kill one another over religion than anything else in this world. And the basic human morals and ethics that you might find in the Bible... were not invented by its writers. The men who wrote the Bible, the Torah, the Koran... did not invent these moral ideals. They have been a part of man for a long time. And the morality issues that the writers of these books DID invent aren't all that useful... like premarital sex being evil or somehow lowering the value of a woman as a human being. Or that because two men are in love with one another that they are are somehow wicked or evil. This sort of moral view is archaic and barbaric and better left in ancient history. We're too grown for such childish views anymore.

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Human nature is proof of gods existence.

No it isn't. The invention of God by man is a facet of human nature.

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We can explain everything except why we do what we do.

The study of psychology, psychiatry, sociology, biology, chemistry and many others have absolutely given us massive insight into our nature and why we do what we do. Most often is it based on a desire to survive and reproduce. Research Maslow's hierarchy of needs. Religion is a survival cushion. We fear death therefore we believe in something that will either save us from it or make it not such a bad thing. (The belief in eternal life).

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Is it just some weird chaotic bunch of electrical signals sent to the brain, or is there something more at work there?

That's just it, I don't conform to any religion. I base my beliefs on the fact that there's a higher power than myself. That's it, that's all. I don't think any religion has it right. If one was ever close it was the Native American belief system IMO. Everything has its place and its own spirit. And we should follow only the rules that nature applies. Per-marital sex and other things will not damn anyone IMO. A merciful god must be understanding of the things he programmed into our very nature. I'm a proud member of the church of I don't know but I believe. That keeps me in tune with my faith but keeps me from being at war with others for doing the same. I actually would say I'm a Christian, but only because of true Christian morals and values I was brought up with. I don't think any one religion is right, I think leading a good life is right.

And at the very least even the atheists have to admit that holy books like the bible, the Koran, the Talmud, etc give us all a set of values and rules to live by that make the world a better place.

Actually, I don't think many atheists would agree with you on that topic (although some would). I for one believe that these sorts of religious texts have caused far more harm than good. There is nothing more dangerous than for a people to hold the collective delusion in their mind that they alone have the truth and know what is best for everyone else. That sort of thinking leads to the justification of unimaginable atrocities.

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Human nature is proof of gods existence. We can explain everything except why we do what we do. Is it just some weird chaotic bunch of electrical signals sent to the brain, or is there something more at work there?

You are stumbling around a profound point with this and it is one I've often pondered, but made no progress on. As DesCartes said, "I think therefore I am", but if all I am is an advanced electrochemical computer than that should not be the case. I should be as hollow in thought as the computer sitting on my desk. A very capable device to be sure, but still only a machine.

But I know that I am not. I am self-aware and knowledgeable of my own conscious mind. How can that be? It hints at me being more than the sum of my parts in some way. More than a tub of water mixed with a bucket full of chemicals. What I know of my composition doesn't explain this sentient capacity that I know I have.

Some see that as proof of the soul, but that is to far of a logical leap. There is nothing to indicate that a "soul" exists or if it does, that it is eternal in some way and can live beyond the body. All that I really know is that there is something more to the explanation than the information we currently have would indicate.

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The thing is, Arrow, that scientists can't explain what happened in the 'Before Time/Space.' Nor can they explain why quantum mechanics exposes so much absurdity at the building block level of the universe.

I for one believe that the answer to the debate between theists and humanists is simple: We are children, barely beginning to discern the truth.

Some theists are beginning to appreciate that the search for truth is not heresy.

That's a good thing. And many humanists are beginning to grasp the concept that the incredible complexity of the physical universe we are starting to understand points us to a spiritual (or at least metaphysical) puzzle that can't be ignored.

Again, we are barely beyond the infant stage in our understanding of the true nature of things. To bicker and argue about it is a toddler's game. We should all wonder (and wonder at) this amazing thing we call life.

Logic has its place, as does faith. We should all seek the truth - together.

I almost had a heart attack when I read your response. I wish ALL would adopt your line of thinking so far as getting along with one another........... DOC

That's just it, I don't conform to any religion. I base my beliefs on the fact that there's a higher power than myself. That's it, that's all. I don't think any religion has it right. If one was ever close it was the Native American belief system IMO. Everything has its place and its own spirit. And we should follow only the rules that nature applies. Per-marital sex and other things will not damn anyone IMO. A merciful god must be understanding of the things he programmed into our very nature. I'm a proud member of the church of I don't know but I believe. That keeps me in tune with my faith but keeps me from being at war with others for doing the same. I actually would say I'm a Christian, but only because of true Christian morals and values I was brought up with. I don't think any one religion is right, I think leading a good life is right.

Some see that as proof of the soul, but that is to far of a logical leap. There is nothing to indicate that a "soul" exists or if it does, that it is eternal in some way and can live beyond the body. All that I really know is that there is something more to the explanation than the information we currently have would indicate.

I've had this conversation with my chick (Who is a militant Atheist). If I HAD to conceive of what an afterlife might be like, what would seem logical to me? My thought (and this is in no way a belief I hold but more of an imagining) is that the energy that is in our brain, the electrical charges that go jumping around as our mind works may be a key to our consciousness. Perhaps the way that energy interacts with our unique brains is what makes us who we are. That and our learned experiences stored in chemical memory. Energy continues on. Perhaps when our bodies die we exist as just that energy. That is our consciousness... it is "Us" in flash drive form. And perhaps, being no longer attached to our flesh and blood bodies with sensory input and nerve endings... our reality is simply whatever we imagine it is. One long never ending dream floating around the cosmos. And perhaps that is what the living... sense as God. But, as I've told many here, there is nothing of substance to show that is the case.

Perhaps when our bodies die we exist as just that energy. That is our consciousness... it is "Us" in flash drive form.

To argue more against myself (than against anything you said), the flip side of my own argment is that there is no area of our conscious mind that can not be manipulated by direct interaction with the brain. Studies show that electrodes inserted into the various regions can directly manipulate the part of the mind that area regulates. They can cause hallucinatory sensory input, trigger emotions, even interfere with memory recall, problem solving or speech. Similar results are observed with traumatic brain injuries, sometimes even resulting in permanent personality changes. With such a direct a causal relationship between the brain and consciousness it's hard to conclude anything other than that we are nothing more than our own brain.

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To argue more against myself (than against anything you said), the flip side of my own argment is that there is no area of our conscious mind that can not be manipulated by direct interaction with the brain. Studies show that electrodes inserted into the various regions can directly manipulate the part of the mind that area regulates. They can cause hallucinatory sensory input, trigger emotions, even interfere with memory recall, problem solving or speech. Similar results are observed with traumatic brain injuries, sometimes even resulting in permanent personality changes. With such a direct a causal relationship between the brain and consciousness it's hard to conclude anything other than that we are nothing more than our own brain.

Oh I agree. I just ponder if it's the energy that drives the machine. I'm sure with time and study we'll figure it all out. Look how far we've come from sacrificing children to beings in the sky.

Oh I agree. I just ponder if it's the energy that drives the machine. I'm sure with time and study we'll figure it all out. Look how far we've come from sacrificing children to beings in the sky.

And what religion would that be? Certainly not Christianity or Judaism or even Islam.
What a fanciful hallucination. It's hilarious how some of the atheists here make up their own tenets for a particular religion.

Clear evidence of the emotionally disturbed. There is professional help out there. Seek it, you need it.

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Because you're logic is weak. Many of us are tired of the weak logic used to foment hostility towards anyone who disagree with you. You can't live and let live.

I don't know what you mean by weak logic. I may have come late to the annoying evangelizing party I sometimes see here, but I'm not trying to convince anyone of anything. I don't have that kind of power. I don't argue for the existence of God, or the truth of the Bible -- I assume it. I expect people not to believe or be interested in/sympathetic to the gospel -- it's our natural state. To be honest, what knocks me off my feet is when I meet someone who is a pedigreed Christian.

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Originally Posted by muscogee

1. That's a very prideful statement. Maybe your pride ran him off.

2. Seems you completely misread that "young brother". God didn't give you very good guidance. Maybe you need to look inward rather than outward.

I wasn't trying to be prideful -- I was trying to be informative, using terms and concepts I assumed buzznRose would understand, if he is a Christian. It was an in-house debate there for a minute, and I stepped on his toes. I don't like to start sentences with "I believe that..." or "in my humble opinion..." not because my opinions are pride-based, but because I'm convinced of my convictions. If I'm not sure of what I'm saying, why say it at all? I've been around this forum just long enough that I assume we know I subscribe to Protestant doctrine, and within that, Calvinst sub-doctrine. I've spent 37 years studying, and it landed me in a place that actually puts me outside a lot of religious circles. Calvinism is regarded as highly rigid (doesn't feel rigid to me), exclusive (it certainly is that, but so is all Christianity ["No one comes to the Father but by Me..."]), and -- believe it or not -- overly cerebral. We're accused of being too interested in doctrine, and not interested enough in people.

I think what happened was that my Calvinist leanings offended him and he bailed. I'm actually somewhat in company with the atheists here, in that the majority of western Christendom regards the Reformers' teachings as hostile and counter-productive to the soft-rock evangelism that's been so popular since the 70s.

"brokenprism,
Why did you back off your claim that you haven't seen any Christians on this forum? -ArtificialGrape"

I didn't know I had, but if it seemed that way, maybe I was backpeddling so as not to offend anyone. (I violated my own principle of not apologizing. ; )

But if pressed, I'd say I don't think I have seen evidence of consistent classical Christianity in the comments of those who identify themselves as Christians. Most of the comments give evidence of some kind that they are 'corrupted' by a non-Christian belief, influence, or personal spin on things. There is such a thing as a pure, Biblical Theology -- and then there's Everything Else. Doesn't matter what -- Islam, science, atheism, LDS, whatever. Historically, the refinement of Christian Theology reached its apex in the writings of Calvin, Zwingli, and others, who took Luther's excellent start at recovering the gospel, and cleaned it up a little. That Theology is largely in disfavor today among people of 'faith,' but it doesn't mean it wasn't right -- it means there are a lot of 'churched' unbelievers. Not wolves maybe, but at least dogs in sheep's clothing.

So anyway, I took buzz to task -- as I thought I had a right to do, as a fellow believer -- for his deconstructed Christian views: that God loves everyone and will wait forever, pleading with people to believe; that we all have an opportunity to exercise free will and believe when we're ready, to the end that our souls are saved. He doesn't. We don't. We can't and won't believe without assistance -- more than assistance: a resurrection of the stillborn soul that frees the will so it can choose God. This is pure Protestant Theology. Buzz should have known that, and if he is regenerated, he should have believed it. But I don't think he did, and I pissed him off.

He probably means things like assuming your conclusion and then reasoning from that point.

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I may have come late to the annoying evangelizing party I sometimes see here, but I'm not trying to convince anyone of anything. I don't have that kind of power. I don't argue for the existence of God, or the truth of the Bible -- I assume it.

This kind of thing, which seems endemic among Calvinists.

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I expect people not to believe or be interested in/sympathetic to the gospel -- it's our natural state.

Perhaps people simply don't accept your interpretations and conclusions because there's no evidence to lead to those conclusions.

__________________
"Pain, or damage, don't end the world. Or despair. Or beatin's. The world ends when you're dead. Until then, you've got more punishment in store. Stand it like a man, and give some back."

Understand this is one of the primary powers over the mind that religion has. It helps ease people's fear of their own mortality. It makes the religious less afraid of death because they believe that it isn't really an end but a new beginning. Which is a nice idea, but there is nothing substantial to prove that it's real. On the negative side this is what also makes suicide bombers not afraid to blow themselves up... because of that promise of a new beginning in paradise.

More people fight and kill one another over religion than anything else in this world.

Or that because two men are in love with one another that they are are somehow wicked or evil. This sort of moral view is archaic and barbaric and better left in ancient history. We're too grown for such childish views anymore.

The study of psychology, psychiatry, sociology, biology, chemistry and many others have absolutely given us massive insight into our nature and why we do what we do.

The Bible tells us 'by their fruits ye shall know them'. Blowing yourself up to murder innocent people is evil. Doing this in hopes of getting 72 virgins in Allah's bordello is also evil. The fact that the Left aids and abets this evil 'religion' tells us a lot about the Left. Of course, we shouldn't be too surprised; after all, the Left murdered 100 million innocent men, women and children in the 20th century in the name of atheistic communism, and many millions more in the name of mostly-atheistic National SOCIALISM.

If we realize that class-hatred and class-warfare, standard Marxist fare, amounts to a false religion based on the sin of envy, then, yes, I suppose you could say that people fight and kill more over religion than anything else. The Bible tells us that Satan has fooled many.

The Bible tells us that sodomy is an abomination. Modern epidemiology tells us that AIDS is rampant primarily in sodomist circles. Tell us again which "childish views" we've outgrown?

'The study of psychology, psychiatry, sociology, biology, chemistry and many others'...should lead us to humble awe at what God hath wrought, rather than arrogant hubris about our supposed 'massive insight'.