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SIMI and Bajrang Dal – can they be compared?

There is a heated debate on in India about whether it is possible to compare SIMI and Bajrang Dal …and also whether to ban these two organisations.

Let us see if we can compare these organisations. As the Bajrang Dal website is banned, I cannot verify their agenda and SIMI does not appear to have a website. There are plenty of news articles about these two organisations and their goals but I have come to the conclusion that the wiki has the agenda of these organisations outlined in a comprehensive and fairly unbiased manner.

Bajrang Dal, it’s said, wants to “expose the questionable means adopted by some Christian bodies to convert poor people under a world evangelical plan that specially targeted Hindu-majority India.” They have other religious goals, like building temples at Hindu holy sites and banning cow slaughter. They are also fighting against government policies which they feel appease minorities.

However, it is important to mention that the Bajrang Dal has no interest in converting non-Hindus to Hinduism. They only want to prevent conversions and fear that the Hindu identity of India will disappear if conversions continue. There have been serious and substantive allegations of christian missionaries using bribes to convert poor Hindus.

SIMI too has a religious agenda. SIMI is apparently against secularism and wishes to “restore the supremacy of Islam.” More details can be found on the wikipedia site.

2. “Moral” agenda – both organisations have a moral agenda.

Bajrang Dal loves to play the moral police and has instilled fear in the minds of ordinary citizens on this issue. Their people are wont to catch un-married couples in parks as they are against public display of affection. They are also against Valentines day celebrations, homosexuality and Hindu-Muslim marriages. They are strongly opposed to the “immoral’ sexual mores of the west, having imbibed the Victorian culture that the British imposed on us during colonial rule.

SIMI too has a moral agenda. They want to “counter what it believes is the increasing moral degeneration, sexual anarchy in Indian society and the ‘insensitiveness’ of a ‘decadent’ west.” However I have not heard of them making a public nuisance of themselves in this regard, but I wonder if that could be because these incidents (intimidation of ordinary people from their own community) have not been reported?

3. Crimes committed. This is tricky as there are very few convictions or documented proof of the activities of these groups. If anyone is caught and some crime is proved, the group promptly denies that the accused is a member. In any case often the police have not solved crimes regarding vandalism and not caught the culprits where the Bajrang is concerned. Therefore one can only talk of allegations and accusations.

Bajrang Dal activists have been accused of many mob attacks and vandalism of property. They have also been linked to the murder of missionary Graham Stein and his three sons – the accused had links with the organisation but Bajrang Dal has denied it.

The Bajrang Dal activists have also been caught involved in bombmaking (although making crude bombs is something that criminals of all kinds do) and the latest is that they have been implicated in the wave of anti-Christian violence in Orissa and Karnataka since August 2008. Christians in some other states are also suffering. However, Bajrang Dal is denying their involvement, although no one believes it. More than 50 Christians have been killed so far, more than 5000 houses destroyed, over a 100 churches burnt down and they say that around 50,000 Christians have been made homeless. And the police is not acting.

SIMI has been accused of terror attacks. The Indian Mujahideen, which has claimed responsibility for a series of blastsacross India, has been accused ofbeing a part of SIMI. Many more have died, and many more injured. SIMI too has denied that its members are a part of the Indian Mujahideen.

The Indian Mujahideen the police say, are being funded by money from the Gulf which clearly points to a foreign hand in the blasts.

Assuming all these allegations are true, this means that both Bajrang Dal and SIMI have committed crimes. We tend to think the terror crimes are more heinous and certainly according to the law they are. Interference of another country also increases the gravity of the crime. But what is disturbing is that it appears as if the police are not acting when it comes to the alleged crimes committed by Bajrang Dal. Does it really matter if the police think that one crime ranks below the other? A crime is a crime. It does seems as if the police are not that concerned about whether one crime is more serious than the other, but more concerned with who commits it.

Whether these two outfits should be banned is a difficult question and I certainly do not know. However, all crimes need to be dealt with according to the punishment stated in the Indian Penal Code. There is no justification for violence. Whatever the motive of the criminals, they have to be punished. They are criminals first and foremost, not holy warriors! Anyone convicted of a crime should not be allowed to disown or distance themselves from their organisation. It shouldn’t be difficult to prove their membership or ex-membership. The organisation has to take the responsibilty if their members are involved in crimes (which go to fulfill the organisation’s agenda) and if any organisation’s members are repeatedly caught in the police net due to their criminal activities, the organisation has to be warned. If this doesn’t work, it should be outlawed.

(First photo is by me and is for representational purposes only. The second one is from pratyushinstablogs)

I think not only both of these oranisations whould be banned but strict action should be taken against anybody who takes law in their hands… And that goes for the members of these two organisation or ANYBODY! But in India, where the votes matter more than the good governance, i don’t see it coming in a long time!

I support Bajrang dal..They are Hindu’s and right now, they do waht the impotent government cant do, ie wipe away evil people without wasting time in legal systems..I am Not christian supporters, but they mainly convert people by bribing them, thru money that comes from western countries…There are reasons Bajrang Dal has..Meanwhile..SIMI is purely funded by Pakistani terrorists..

Dont compare SIMI with Bajrang Dal..

BTW, I dont understand why most of pseudo secular, liberal, and whatever people use ‘Moral Police’ as an abusive term?? It seems a fashion of calling Hindu’s Moral Police..When Muslims do it, its accepted as part of religion..No one dares speak against them…A hindu does it, the pseudo seculars as usual wail – ‘Hey look, thats a moral police..’

Is it wrong to have good moral values? Is it wrong to be moral as per the religion advice? Is it wrong to prevent something bad happening in society??

Moral Strength is the biggest strength in a civilized society..Note – I am saying – civilized’ .. A man with good morals, when walks on the road, people automatically look at him with awe and respect..

Only the civilized people truely understand the meaning of word ‘MORAL’. The rest, they just keep on with their usual job..Meanwhile, I would advice, at least for some time, in life, try be moralistic..

I find you painstakingly rational in analyzing a tricky & ‘sensitive’ issue. Debate will continue and no word will ever be accepted as the last word. But, a point on which I always am left pondering is: why do many amongst us who always profess to project themselves as progressive, do not appreciate one essential element? i.e, the difference between ‘sinning’ or ‘sinned against’. I have no difference with the view that nobody should anoint themselves as moral police to the extent it refers to BD. But isn’t it always true that Hindus are found not so much on ‘first attack’ but ‘retaliating’ that too meekly. In my perception, the ‘aggression’ displayed by BD or other hard line Hindu frontal organizations is perhaps an effort at assertion by a handful who dare to, unlike the mute remaining majority, display a sense that is intended to convey ‘do not trample us over’?

Awesome. Love the way you present the case. I wrote a post on a similar issue this morning🙂

//They are strongly opposed to the “immoral’ sexual mores of the west, having imbibed the Victorian culture that the British imposed on us during colonial rule.//
Their moral values are not even traditional Indian values! But you are going to find a lot of people supporting the agenda of one of these Organizations. By the way, You Tube has videos of Bajrang Dal activists, beating people, throwing stones and talking about why they are justified in doing that, but I think those are not admisible in Court.

It is my humble request to you all Indians that please stop comparing SIMI and Bajrang Dal .. SIMI is anti-national while Bajrang Dal is sometimes (make note of this word – sometimes) anti-social .. I hope you know the difference between them ..

Well frankly, I support VHP and Bajrang Dal ..

I am firmly against religious conversion .. U cant carry out conversion by showing poor people greed,money,food and comfort .. America-London are better place to live than India but not every indian becomes american .. because we love India irrespctive of the struggles here .. That’s the same with our religion .. If u cant be loyal to what u r born with, u cant be loyal to anything in this world ..

In A’bad, I hv seen VHP-Bajrand dal people helping at the general hospitals in a large number whenever it iis hs by natural calamity like earthquake or flood .. I hv seen them donating blood .. I firmly supported them when they destroyed MF Hussain’s property which was full of naked and derogatory paintings of hindu Gods ..

VHP was the one who single-handedly helped poor hindus who were residing in muslim areas during riots from money to food to shelter to blankets .. They r the one who pays monthly amounts to godhra victim families ..

The root case which sparked the violence in Orissa was the murder of VHP leader .. He was not busy converting non-hindus to Hindus but he was preventing hindus from becoming christians and saving those cows going to slaughter house .. He was killed and then the retaliation started .. I dont justify any kind of violence but u must see what the reason is ..

BD has never forced any non-Hindu to become a hindu .. It has never carried out bomb blasts all over country killing innocent people .. It just retaliates when provoked ..

I would add two points. Bajrangis also don’t beleive in secularism,they want to have a Hindu Rashtra as SIMI dreaming for Caliphate.
Bajrangis also organise reconversion to Hinduism (although in Hinduism there is no concept of recoversion).
The question should be why the organisation has not been banned yet.

The only basis of banning these two would seem to be their alleged crimes. I say ‘alleged’ because legal cases must be brought to prove those crimes first and they cannot be assumed to be true.

Also you say ‘They are criminals first and foremost, not holy warriors!’ which is a bit disturbing. Do you mean that ‘holy warriors’, whether self-declared or publicly anointed, should have some kind of immunity from prosecution for the same acts that ‘criminals’ may commit?

As one commentator here points out, both groups have a political agenda and a clear political identity too. But in a democracy they are allowed to have a religious and political identity as well as a moral stance of their choosing.

And this is where the discussion turns. Politics is ultimately about negotiated agreements between parties with conflicting agendas. So at some point, peace loving people may have to negotiate with these groups. A bit like how, for years, the secret services of many western countries have recommended ‘negotiating’ with the Taliban and the politicians have ignored them, only to be brought to the heel eventually. Ironic, considering politicians should have been naturally programmed to recognising a political opportunity!

Banning things really does not work. Unless the masses of society are behind that ban (cf. earlier discussion on smoking bans). Going by some comments here we may be far from that consensus.

Shefaly, thanks. About your holy warrior point, no I didn’t mean it that way. I was meaning that they who call themselves that think they are immune, I don’t think they are. But even then I want to deny them that title which they think justifies their violence. I am answering this hurriedly, as right now am on the run! More later.
For some strange reason this comment had gone into spam. – Nita.

of course terrorism of an y sort is comparable as they have common motive ” only we are the successors of this earth and rest all be it hindus or muslims should be wiped off”
terrorism has many faces and bajrang dal and simi are its few faces . the only difference i see is that bajrang dal derives its root from a known politician and simi has no such guru or whatever you may call.

@ Bajrang Dal Supporters : If you believe indeed that Bajrang dal is within the framework of the present constitution and it has done nothing that is fundamentally against the prevailing laws in the country and our constitution by all means you have the right to uphold the right of your favourite organization to survive. However if this organization is now working against our present system it will and should be dismantled. They are most welcome though to fight an election get an overwhelming majority and do whatever they want to do. You know what though, they do not have the numbers to do it. They won’t ever either. Most of this country is made up of moderate sensible people. Till then, tough luck and good riddance!

off the topic : and yes nita…..being a journalist i would say that you really bring out some thought provoking issues in light….you know after my 10+2 i too wish to become a journo cum writer …common roots😀
but undoubtedly i would want to see your more articles and views so keep blogging ! cheers😀

@ Nita : Conversion is a matter of choice. Look at how people are treated in a particular religion and if they do not enjoy being a part of it anymore I say they should be able to have a choice. If someone does offer a better deal, why not! If these people can not compete to save their flock they should do a better job. Better inducements. Hey if you want me to spend 2 hours every day praying for your faith you’d better offer me the best deal that you can offer. Demand and Supply. Quite simple! In any case I would rather be a Buddhist or a Christian rather than a low caste Hindu. Thankfully I am none of these. Again tough luck! Right wing extremism has no place in a democracy. Tough luck again!

Very balanced post Nita. After a very long time I have read something on this controversial topic which seems to be non-partisan. Mostly when people write about a topic like this, they are swayed by emotions.Well written and complete. I can’t add anything to it.

Religion, race etc. are secondary compared to basic needs of food / water / shelter. If people are being ‘bribed’ to convert so be it – I’d be first in line if conversion meant escaping from the terminal ‘low-caste’ branding.

Bajran Dal is the militant wing of far- right Hindu organizations like RSS and VHP.

They survive on the fear of the other and the outsider, be it from within the country or outside.

SIMI as the world knows has its own Islamist agenda.

Should we ban the Dal and Simi. YES. Both resort to violence. Both believe in polarizing societies to augment their ideology. So does Shiv Sena.

CPI (M) doesn’t even have a separate wing – it’s cadre resorts to good old violence like they did in Nandigram to impose their policies. So what do we punish them with?

India is becoming increasingly violent. Period. What is giving birth to it? That’s a question we need to answer. Have all civil ways of agitation disappeared? There is intolerance everywhere. Why?

Because there is no justice? Or it is delayed. Or it is twisted? When the powers that be have soiled consciences then people aspiring to the same position have their methods cut out.

Sheila Dixit – a woman and the chief minister of Delhi! had this to say after the murder of the 27 year old journalist Soumya – she said going out at 3 AM in the morning is no adventure and she should have avoided it. “…one should not be adventurous…

What she said was this – you invited it. Just like the labour minister’s stupid comments after the Noida murder of the CEO of an MNC.

I know this is digression but when the rulers start making excuses on behalf of killers then it’s time the citizen’s woke up.

Nita,
Slightly off the discussion.
I see no difference among a Bajrang Dal, SIMI or a DYFI. All are anti system. All take law in their hands. All are vandals. They all make life difficult for the common man.
Politics , religion etc are mere masks. Agenda is to gain power and money.

Banning and warning organizations is not possible since there is no way one can conclude that the accused is a member of any particular organization. And if you do ban an organization, its quite easy to start a new organization with a different names.

How about you arrest people and follow the legal system of prosecuting the individuals than any particular organization.

Its very similar to the process that police followed while arresting the creator of “Sonia Gandhi hate club” on a social networking site for an act against so-called national interest or contempt of govt..

Also, banning organization means lots of hoo-hah from political parties and other firm supporters of these organization, while you might get rid of it if you are arresting an individual, since both the individual and the organization usually deny any form of relationship/membership between them in trials.

And, I have observed that people firmly support illegal activities that they judge to be doing good, very casually forgetting that they themselves might become a victim of some other illegal activity that someone else might judge to be doing some other good. Good is anyway some thing very subjective.

Very relevant post, Nita…
What’s happening in Orissa (and now spreading to other states) is a genocide, its systematic, and its shocking that so many ordinary people out there are justifying it, rationalizing it.
I totally agree that fundamentalist religious groups, if they are Hindu, Muslim or Christian, are similar at the basic level. They are all the same in terms of intolerance of ‘other’ communities, hatred, labeling sex as ‘evil’ and a ‘temptation’, and persecution of women.
However I also feel that electoral politics plays a huge role in these events, not just religious rage.

I think both groups can definitely be categorized in the same group as terrorists. They are religious/political groups that want to terrorize and subdue the other community. The only reason both are able to succeed is due to a lack of efficient governance or policing.

What are we going to achieve after banning Bajrang Dal and SIMI? Do you think it is going to make any difference??

I mean is it going to stop killings or terrorism, I can’t see it happening, BD is just an identity, you ban BD 2moro the same mob will come under a different name and carry out the same things they are being doing since ages.Anyways they are not taking the credit of the crimes.

Wasn’t SIMI banned once? Was it effective?

@Harshad Joshi.

I have donated blood plenty of times, but I have never filled a form which asks for which party I belong to BD or SIMI or VHP…

You mean they shout while donating blood that I am from BD, see I am donating blood??

@Odzer

hey in ur first comment i thought one @SIMI supporters will be coming…are u assuming no 1 is SIMI supporter or no SIMI supporter is reading it?

you said “Conversion is a matter of choice”. I will like to reframe it “Conversion should be a matter of choice”.

and yes there are people….give u money… how the heck it matters that u r hindu, muslim or christian as long as u r living happily…but what about others??

BD and SIMI are just faces, you ban them and a new one will resurface… did i just said IM??…😆

@ Sharad : I assume that SIMI is already banned. Hey I am a guy that usually fights bans. I agree that bans are not an effective deterrent. I also agree that these people can regroup. It is therefore that we should amend our constitution and ban far right parties/groups like the Germans have done. It should not take us a world war III to figure that out. There are some political ideologies that should not be allowed to gain number/power at all at any cost. I am being selective on this ban topic. It has to be a constitutional ban on far right wing and fundamentalist politics if you want this country to remain as it is which should only be allowed to go if they amend the constitution again by a 75% majority.

I said conversion is a matter of choice. It is something that you can not legislate on. You can not make any one believe in anything if they do not want to. Indeed for me it does not matter what faith you follow or even if you do not follow any. However all I said was that if I were a low caste I would rather follow some other faith than one in which I would be assigned to a 3rd rate position. So indeed the incentive to pray should be generous and not stingy both in monetary as well as societal terms because it is time consuming!

Hinduism has thrived, since I don’t know – 5000BCE?, even before these new religions from the middle east started propagating with a sword. We have always been tolerant and welcoming even if the foreigner destroys part of our house and builds his own.

What bothers me is this sudden ‘Hindus in danger’ propaganda and increasingly Talibanistic attitude shown by these right wing parties. That is the primary reason I dislike BD. I think religious fundamentalism has no place in Hinduism because it doesn’t work that way. The basic tenant of Hinduism is to accept everything, against that preached by kiddie religions, namely to impose their idea of God.

In any case, using ‘adharmic’ means to justify ‘dharma’ is making a mockery of dharma itself, which is exactly what BD is doing.

@Odzer..
I guess SIMI was banned once, but the ban was lifted, for god knows what reasons.. I am too lazy to google and see if it is banned or not.
Amending constitution… not going to happen dude…

@Nita would you please let us know if it was banned or not. I feel sorry to ask it.

and you mentioned that the BD website is banned? I do not understand the concept of banning a website? how is it done? I mean in my company we have firewall rules, proxies which filters some websites and we cannot view them, but I can see the content of BD website.

Sakhi, strict action is the answer, taking law into one’s own hands is to be strongly condemned.

Harshad, when muslims do their moral policing, it is a part of religion. When BD does it, it is certainly not from our Hindu scriptures. The majority of Hindus do not accept such diktats from self-appointed moral police. If hating and condemning the moral police makes me “pseudo secular, liberal, and whatever” I proudly claim that I am that.

Pushhyarag, thanks. However, you say “why do many amongst us who always profess to project themselves as progressive, do not appreciate one essential element? i.e, the difference between ’sinning’ or ’sinned against’ I am not sure what you mean. If you mean that violence is justified if we are sinned against? In my view, violence is only justified for self-defense, not as a retaliation for any non-violent acts. In fact even retaliating against a violent act (like a bomb blast) by another bomb blast is not something I agree with and will never participate in or support. But yes if someone comes at me with a knife or a gun, I would protect myself by hitting back.

Indian Homemaker, I am sure the videos are admissable in court, but it remains to be seen if the police is interested. And you are right, the “morals” of right wing organisations like the Bajrang Dal are not Hinduism.

Soham, I too am against religious conversion by using money and inducements. But that is not a justification for violence. About the murder of the swami, the “reactions” took place even before the investigation was over! And there is no justification for violence, certainly not against non-violent provocation.

Hoku, we are already a hindu rashtra.

Chirax, as you say, goons, and politically motivated.

Shefaly, thanks for calling the post brave. That is really sweet of you…and about the crimes, I too hope that these crimes are proven. And about political solutions, well, I don’t know. The demands have to be acceptable to the people.

Arpit, thanks. I hope you do become a journo! And about the other thing, I agree. terrorism of any sort is comparable.

Odzer and Vipul, your arguments are tempting and logical, but try as I do, I do not feel comfortable with monetary conversions. I find it repugnant. It is a strong feeling that I have, a feeling which I cannot suppress. And I have tried to rationalise it. But mind you, I am not at any point blaming the ones who convert, but only those who offer bribes. My rationalisation is this: Religion itself is something moral. If to convert one has to offer money, the whole thing becomes meaningless, sick and disgusting to me. I cannot help feeling this way. And I am not even religious! Maybe someone will come along and give me an argument against this. But to me religion has to be pure, untainted. I am all for those who want to convert because they are disgusted with Hinduism.All the power to them!

Prerna, thanks. You being so well up on politics in India, that praise means a lot to me!

Captain Sharks, I can think of a few more, right here near my home!🙂

astralwicks, as you said India is becoming increasingly violent and one of the reasons is that thse who attack in mobs are not punished. And yes the other thing like you pointed out, is that society is nt condemning violence strongly enough….they feel there are “reasons” for it!

Old Sailor, but both are dangerous.

Nikhil N, agree wholeheartedly. All are vandals and criminals and it’s us, the common man, who suffers.

Vishesh, well I guess that’s true. Maybe the youth should vote all these right wing parties out of power. They have the strength of numbers.

Anshul, true what you said, but banning does help in one way. It would make a young person hesitate to join a banned organisation. It spoils the name of the organisation. They can’t tell new recruits that they are legitmate. You last para is bang on! It’s all very subjective! Tomorrow anyone can say anything if all that is required is the help of goondas!

wishtobeanon, thanks, and for the link too. I read that article. I do agree with most of what he says, though not about the conversions. I find monetary induced conversions abhorrent. This is not religion.

Aditi, well, it’s not really a genocide, but yes there is certainly a fear of genocide amongst the victims. And I agree completely with your statement:

…fundamentalist religious groups, if they are Hindu, Muslim or Christian, are similar at the basic level. They are all the same in terms of intolerance of ‘other’ communities, hatred, labeling sex as ‘evil’ and a ‘temptation’, and persecution of women.

Sharad, if these organisations are proved to be involved in illegal activities they should be banned. Let them take the trouble to reinvent themselves and let them be on the run! Banning is the greatest humiliation and it will make a decent youth think twice about joining an illegal group.

Wow!! such a inflammatory post for many BD supporters and “real” Hindus in the blogosphere and yet only 28 comments till now. Seriously commenting is in recession too in our blogosphere.

Jokes apart, I second Sakhi’s view and if anyone does anything illegal or opposed to basic human rights due to whatever reason (political,social or religious), he/she should be arrested.
One thing I notice as we are accused of using “Moral Police” as an abusive term, similarly isnt the word “pseudo-secularists” being used as an abuse for any person expressing his/her opinion on his/her own blog? I find that entirely wrong.
And I totally agree with Odzer that these groups should fight election if they have so many supporters and if they r doing so much of good work.
As for the statement that BD and VHP never did any bomb blasts, didn’t Bal T. commend the creation of Hindu suicide squads as a tit for tat for Islamic outfits few months ago? So who gives the guarantee that they will not resort to that in the future?
I wont say courageous post because its your blog and u have the right to freedom to expression. Good post!

Reema,thanks. I agree about that abusive terms like “pseudo-secularists” being used freely to label those who do not agree with the Hindutva idealogy. I am not even a religious person so I find the term laughable. I care a fig as to what religion or caste or class a person belongs to! But fundamentalists of any religion hate people like me. And overall personal attacks are the refuge of those who have no rational argument. About freedom of expression, you forget one thing. I do not have goondas supporting my free expressions! Today only those who use violence and violent words and abuses have the right to freedom of expression!🙂 Like the moral police who want to talibalize Hinduism. – Nita.
p.s. about your note on comments, my stats start to go down on friday and then keep going down throughout the week-end. They go up only by monday night.

@ Nita : Organized religion is about controlling people and what they do. Insecurity within one group of people or some individuals who can not understand what the way of life or who do not want to understand others way of life. So they have to painted as evil or bad. Religion needs money to propagate itself, it always has. Organized religion thus has nothing to do with purity. It is just run like a big corporation. Japanese law thus treats religious temples etc as companies and they are taxed like them as well!

@ Sharad : Amending the constitution, why not? Indian constitution is one of the most amended constitutions in the world. In any case if now they will not do it due to populist pressure in the future they might have to because of the fear of outright civil war. One way or the other to protect this country’s status as a liberal and modern democracy we need to protect our rule of law. Secular needs to be defined as secular is, no space of religion in the government and its institutions. Lets start by taking prayer out of school. If people want their kids to pray send them to private school.

Really a well balanced unbiased article. Any how SIMI and Bajrang dal can not be seen on same eyes. One wants its supremacy in the world either by sword or by word and other does all for their religion does not be perished by other’s domination. The SIMI needs to banned while the cause which makes Bajrang dal to do crimes needs to banned. Some of the people involved in Bajrang dal are also criminals in their area. Since they are with Bajrang dal they became people who protect God by all their Goondagiri. However the reasons which they fight for is also not wrong. Those are all our ancient tradition and culture which is being attacked by outsiders in many way. Some people choose voice, some pen, some sword to fight against the attack. Banning Bajrang dal will create more hatred than a solution. While on the other side SIMI is powered by outside sources which are against our own nation. They want Islam to rule the world by the power of sword. Their cause and reasons can not be solved or removed and only can be stopped from spreading. But banning alone will not do the whole work we also needs to educate Muslims to love the humanity and respect the nation so that they can not mislead by SIMI or IM.

For those that say VHP/Bajrang Dal do all sorts of charity work etc., so should a guy who made money by breaking laws be let off simply because he donates some money to some charities ? Do Indians understand the concept of law ? I mean for Gods sake, the thinking seems to be, as long as the law works for me is okay, but as soon as I feel it doesnt I will not hesitate in breaking it.

I am against bigotry and am as such not in favour of the philosophy of any bigoted organisation.

1. The Orissa violence was globally condemned – by Italy, Vatican, EU, US Commission on Freedom of Religion, street protesters in various countries [notably Mexico] etc. All this for 116000 convert Christians. 36 people on both sides died and 3000 are reportedly homeless. Compensation of Rs. 2 lakhs from State and Rs. 3 lakhs each from Delhi have been announced. Each victim will be richer by Rs. 5 lakhs. Each mission will receive more money from abroad from credulous donors.

Within weeks of Orissa, the Assam violence began. More than 50 died during the first week. More than 90000 lost their homes. There was no global interference. There was not a single Net site crying about it, whereas Orissa has more than 2 lakhs sites shedding tears about 116000 converts. The Wikipedia has 7 articles about Orissa and Karnataka, all sourced by excellent Christian sites. Reading them, one would be convinced India is Hitler’s Germany. These are all posted by Christian missions from India. Any editing about the compensation of Rs. 5 lakhs is immediately reverted by a consolidation of Christian missions. When a Hindu servant in an orphanage succumbed to burns, it was globally announced that a nun had been raped and burnt. This much noise bout 116000 converts [in a country of 1.1 billion]! Could it not be a conspiracy, beginning with the murder of the Hindu Swami in the tenth attempt on him?

2. The SIMI looks abroad for guidance, and money. One cannot trust that a SIMI-India would be any different for other religions from Bangladesh and the like.

3. Christians in Orissa are mostly Maoist. The militant situation of Christians in the North East and their banning Sarees and Hindu festivals is known to all. They have declared that they are not Indians. Catholics look to Vatican for guidance.

Non-secularists might compare them all with the Hindu Fascists!! At least, Hindu Fascists do not look outside for spiritual and political orders!

Nita, I applaud your courage in writing about a topic that is bound to be controversial and arouse some passions.

I think what Pushhyarag probably meant was that some progressives (Hindus), for varying reasons, do not speak out against some (not all) Christian missionaries who openly use insulting language for Hindu gods and goddesses (plenty of credible links), vilify the religion and its followers and use that misinformation to proselytize (different from ‘conversion’). I think many Hindus’ approach to such tactics is either disbelief, “chalta hai” , “Hinduism has survived for so many thousands of years so don’t worry” or “we deserve it because of our own fault or caste system.” But these same Hindus suddenly realize their Hindu identity and get all bothered when VHP/Bajrang Dal members take the law into their own hands. I think if more Indians (not just Hindus) took the step of speaking out against the unsavory practices of these missionaries (from what I’ve read, they are very aggressive and even poach on their fellow-Christians of other denominations) as well as supported efforts to help those on the margins of the society, probably we’d see fewer instances of violence. But the debate in India is currently so polarised that people won’t do the right thing even if they know it’s the right thing to do, because it’s coming from the right-wing.

I do not subscribe to right-wing’s narrow interpretation of Hinduism nor do I approve of the moral policing or hatred, but from whatever I’ve read, I think their analysis regarding secularism and politics in India post-independence is in many instances, correct. Plenty of examples right from the banning of Salman Rushdie and Ram Swarup’s books, Shan Bano case, Taslima Nasreen and M. F. Hussein are available.

What’s ironic is that the progressives/liberals who put M. K. Gandhi on a pedestal, forget/ignore/are unaware of his views on Christian proselytism; whereas the right-wing folks, who are generally critical of Gandhi, quote his writings on it in support of their stance. Isn’t India wonderful?🙂

Forgot to add – I’d followed the Orissa incidents as covered by different Indian newspapers, and the bias in the media in how they reported on the two incidents (killing of Swami, and the violence that followed) was quite obvious, with many tears shed and much hand-wringing regarding the latter.

Odzer, organised religion is like that, true, but at an individual level there needs to be faith. Otherwise I think that the person is not religious or a devotee, but a fraud.

Arvind, at times I wonder if this chaos was not already happening in India. Now with the news tv channels we seem to have all this violence right in our drawing rooms.

Nagendra Rao, thanks. As you rightly poiinted ut, criminals join these right wing organisations to give themselves legitimacy. However when it comes to protecting whoever they want to protect, they can do it peacefully. I certainly don’t want to be beaten up if I sit with my husband in a public park just holding hands! This is not Hindu culture and I don’t need goons to threaten me! And yes, this is what BD activists do. If they did not play moral police, I would look at their objectives with kinder eyes. The way they are now, they scare me!

Vikram, worrying isn’t it, that people will that breaking the law is justified for their own cause!

Sajan, the violence in certain states being continous is often ignored by the media and I agree with you that it is wrong. And I agree with you about the attitude of the west…but isn’t it natural? If Indians get killed in America we get a hue and cry being made here, with articles about how maybe Indian students are being targeted, and is it racism? So while ideally these things should not happen, they do happen. We need to keep our house in order. I think this Christian violence has done great damage to India’s image abroad. But I doubt whether the prepetrators care about that.

Amit, thanks. Yes, all that what these missionaries are doing is shameful. One of the links in my post is to an indian express article which mentions this. I do not consider these missionaries to be people of God. Anyone who denigrates another religion or pays money to people for conversions is a fraudulent messenger of God. However, there are means to fight this, it will never work through violence. The recent violence has proved it, most Hindus have been revolted by it. I do not think that even if you are sinned against, there is a need to pick up a gun or a knife and nor does it make the violence more moral. And in any case these missionaries are peaceful, you need to grant them that. I think we need good (Hindu) leaders who will lead the masses in a peaceful way to protest against these fraudulent practices by missionaries. I cannot accept that there isn’t a peaceful way.
And as the killing of the swami was immediately followed by mobs attacks (the investigation hadn’t even started), and the media highlights mob attacks.

If an organization is indulging in criminal activities, then it should be banned. There should not be any debate on it.
The question which remains is that do we have proofs that these organizations are indulging in criminal activities? It seems that the government have proofs because that is why they are atleast “thinking” about banning BD.
I think no one has a right to tell me how I should live my life as long as I am not creating a problem for someone. The way the Bajrang Dal activists behave on Valentine’s Day every year is a shame in itself. They should have already been banned just for that.
After the Orissa riots, the picture is quite clear as the Center is also in a lot of pressure now. Lets see what happens.

“If Indians get killed in America we get a hue and cry being made here, with articles about how maybe Indian students are being targeted, and is it racism?”

Who were the Americans/Italians/Europeans killed in Orissa…..? Are you saying our dear Christian converts are foreigners…?

The large number of sob stories about Khandmal [merely 116000 converts in a country of 1.1 bn] have a lot to do with marketing, to get the credulous Whites to open their purse strings. As such, we all should encourage the initiatives. Foreign direct investment is the motto of the day.

Sajan, that was just an example to drive home a point. If you do not like that example, let us take the example of Hindus being illtreated in a country like malaysia. even if they are foreigners, we will make a big deal here don’t you think? Look, I am not saying it’s right, I am saying this is what happens! We tend to make a fuss about those whom we feel our own, this is a fact, not something desirable. – Nita

Hindu terrorists are slowly highjacking the society as is sick jihadists did..Time is running out and its high time to act..

I find it interesting that many people proudly claim to be supporters of these Dal terrorists while i have alteast seen some sort of hinderence in majority muslims to proclamin loud that they support the jihadists/terrorists..and i see it a dangerous tendency..

If hindu terrorists are so worried about indian culture and conversion issues,why don’t they go there and give food and education to those tribals?At then end of the day,even to ,it is not religion,but daily needs that matters..If i am hungry and outcasted and depreived of opportunities,i won’t mind converting into even the crappiest religion..So,its high time these terrorists stop raping nuns and buring them,and do something for those tribals,so that they can prevent missionaries exploiting their helplessness,as accused..

Then again i don’t understand the drama and culture-preservation behind re-re converting christians back to hinduism..

Poor victims,they are so helpless..We can sit and blog and vent out out emotions..What do they do?

No matter how much we rant,nothing good is going to happen..Its election year and we’ll have lot more dramas from all sides as to polarize votes..I just pray people don’t lose their lives by playing pawns to high-level people..

However, there are means to fight this, it will never work through violence. The recent violence has proved it, most Hindus have been revolted by it.

Nita, I fully agree here that violence is not a solution. Why these Hindus (and Indians) are not revolted by the despicable acts of some Christian missionaries too and speak out instead of remaining quiet, is the question to ask.

And as the killing of the swami was immediately followed by mobs attacks (the investigation hadn’t even started), and the media highlights mob attacks.

To be specific, the two incidents I had in mind were the killing of Swami and some of his associates – including a woman – in an ashram where children were present; and the burning of a Christian orphanage where a woman died. (Mob violence happened after that.) In both cases, a woman was killed, and in both cases, children were present while the violence happened. Yet, the second incident was reported in a much more sensational manner by the media, and initial reports incorrectly mentioned the woman in the second case as a Christian nun. That’s the bias I’m talking about.

whatever the statistics say ask a mother how it feels losing a son ,evemn in dreams;leave alone petrol thrown all over and burnt.No matter who is the organisation or what the religion is nobody should kill or burn .I do agree there are provocations but
our Religion preaches us to be tolerant and non violence.
After all we have legal framework which can be resorted to,if everything else fails.I am a devout ** but I wont hurt anyone in name of religion though I believe Durga and Shakti are same.

1. There is no media violence about Hindus’ being killed in Kashmir.
2. There is no media violence about Hindus’ being killed in Assam.
3. There is no media violence about Hindus’ being killed in the North East.
4. Even the biased NCM wrote in their Report on the 2007 Violence in Orissa that one Christian and two Hindus had been killed in the violence. The Indian intellectuals all beat their breasts for the one Christian killed.

The entire world weeps, led by Indian secularists, about 116000 converts in Orissa who are all richer by Rs. 5 lakhs each now, thanks to the media violence created by the Christian brethren worldwide. The money [calculate how many crores it comes to] goes from your and my pockets. All because some foreign-funded idiots killed that Swami!

It is known that most media people in India are paid to espouse certain causes. Their writing for Christian and non-Hindu groups is as such, okay. But why should the ordinary educated Indian go into blog-violence about the massive propaganda-fraud…..? [laughs]

The Prime Minister is right in expressing his feelings about the National Shame, in Paris. He would have been right-er if he had added that the mutual violence involving the (116000) converts and Hindus in Khandmal, Orissa was a National Shame to 1100000000 Indians, next to his being PM to the Italian lady! How else can any discerning and balanced gentleman include the rest of us 1099884000 Indians in his Shame on Orissa!

Be it bajrang dal or a SIMI,these are just fundamental groups.The challenge that lies ahead is removing it,and creating more liberal minded individuals in the society.Only education can do that,as it has already done in case of the 35% middle class public of India.
In USA,when there are people from almost all countries,it’s their open-mindedness that stops them from fighting against one another.
The time demands to invest more in education,economy and population control.When one has a good stable life with a regular income,one tends not to engage in arsons or so.That’s why we don’t found such cases of violence in affluent Western and Far Eastern countries.
And above all,influence of religion has to somewhere be curbed.It is this so called “culture” which is making people “uncultured”.Let’s totally stop the construction of any more temple,mosque or church.Invest that same money into education,as we have some 38 crores estimated illiterates,the highest in the world.Rather than pleasing the unknown,it’s better to please the people around.

Where were these newspapers, news channels and journalists when the hindus where converted?? Sleeping probably. It was the call of the west where most of our economy is inclined that burnt this issue. I am strongly against the violence. But when at this time all media is almost with the christians they should have been with hindus when there were conversions. There is no comparison of SIMI and Bajrang Dal. SIMI is full of violence. They don’t care if the victims are hindu or muslim or any other.

Hi .I stand by what i said..Dal is same version if SIMI,deluded to think that militancy will sets things right..Of one is so called islamic terrorism,the other is so called hindu terrorism..

I am copy pasting my view on this,especially a replt to my reader who said that i imply a hindu-free india when i talk against barbarism and that tax payers money is lost when government gives 5 lakh compensation to victims..Sorry ,but rewriting would take away the intended thoughts..

******************************************

Why do you assume that i want a hindu-free india..We already discussed on who a hindu is..I am a hindu too,just that i don’t follow hinduism..And by talkng about these terrorists,i don’t mean to eradicate hindus as a whole from the surface of this earth..By talking against jihadists,do you imply that all muslims whould be killed or thrown out of india?No right?The same way,i am talking against all terrorists,so called islamic and hindu terrorists who dirupt normal functioning of scoiety by killing people..

If you go through the comments,you can see that I am against the missionaries who expolit the tribal’s helplessness..But killing the missionaries doesn’t help the cause..You kill these 10 missionaries,100 more will come tomorrow..You kill the 100,1000 more will come next day and they will get more mileage by sympathy waves,and more resources in the form of money and manpower..Instead of killing,try to work on the tribal’s part and have setups for their food and health and education and all..You can see the whole of missionaries packing their back and leaving the place..all by themselves.

You are happy,tribals are happy..and everything is fine and peaceful..

But instead of that,raping and buring nuns and others will only upset the system more..Don’t you think this act will help draw more forigen funds?don’t you think this will lead them to ahve more sympathay and get more followers?Well,is that waht you want?No right?then please stop the barabrism and act wise..

Regarding the money,i believe much more money is being wasted in political party’s protests by dmamgin public property and time and money…Leave aside all those money spent of religious travel packages spent on various sectors of people,and etc etc costs,a single day’s Bandh or Harthal will cost crores and the compensation given to these tribals is nothing when compared to the damage done by political partie’s strikes …So we need not worry about compensation..Atleast soembody is eating some food and wearing clothes using our tax and i am content with that..

And pls tell me do you imply a muslim-free or christain-free india ,when you talk against jihadists? If not,i am also not implying to have to hindu-free india when i talk against hindu terrorists..I hope i made sense..

Amit S, the problem is that the proof maybe there, but the persecution and investigation happens in a biased manner and finally the organisations get away as the individuals deny membership! Ofcourse, if there is a will, there will be way to catch these organisations too.

Nimmy, thanks for your comment, rather enjoyed reading your “rant”. And I wonder too why people openly support the violent “Hindu” organisations. And yes you are right. If a person is starving, he/she cannot be blamed for converting.

Amit Lotusnova, they are revolted. It’s just that they are more revolted by the violence.

wishtobeanon, thanks for the links. About criticizing those from one’s community, well I think it happens within one’s own community. When is one talking to “outsiders” one tends to become defensive.

gayatri, as you said, religion preaches peace and love, but its followers do the opposite!

Sajan, thanks for your views. Yes, the media is biased and all of us ordinary people get influenced by the media.

ameyawaghmare, I too believe that education is the key to remove fundamentalism and I agree that the influence of religion should be curbed. Particularly in governance. We should have a national debate on this.

Guttu, the media tends to report violence more than it does conversions. Isn’t violence worse than conversion? I think so.

Amit, I think Nita has answered part of your question. It is always violence that elicits more response – and what is more revolting than rapes, murder, arson etc? Is proselytization or conversion illegal according to our constitution? Is it the converts who are protesting against conversion – if they don’t have a problem, why are others taking up an invisible cause? If these conversions were done coercively using monetary incentives, how different is it from politicians trying to garner votes by promising or giving away things to poor people? Shouldn’t these politicians be tried too?
I don’t have a direct answer for your questions, but, it is a good quality to be introspective and deal with our own faults. I hope we won’t lose it as a nation.
Sorry, Nita for taking up your comment space.

Amit, I could not find it. It is not in the spam folder either. I checked the spam too. Maybe it didn’t get posted. If you don’t get a sign saying that it’s in moderation, that means it isn’t. Try posting it again
– Nita.

I have seen this blog and even linked it once in a main post. The blog makes good points (though I have not read all the posts) but unfortunately there are people who do not understand it. Hindutva people use the term to vilify anyone who is being fair to all religions. Being pro-minority is pseudo-secularism I agree but one does not have to be a believing Hindu to be “secular”. To imply that to be truly secular you need to be a Hindutva person is ridiculous. I am not saying the blogger is that, but there are people who do not understand who use it this way. – Nita.

You seem to make effort to be bridge balance or find a compromise between SIMI and BD… and then “wonder too why people openly support the violent “Hindu” organisations”.

First of all, if BD is as bad as SIMI, there is no need of any justification to show that BD = SIMI. This is ridicules. It is no different then some ppl who desperately try to paint RSS as equal Nazi when they are pole apart. The history of Nazism speaks for itself how bad it is and similarly SIMI’s anti-national activities speaks for itself. There is no need to equate these organizations with another. But what is funny is every time a Hindu organization is condemned, there is desperate attempt made to draw parallel with another. This itself shows that they are not the same!

One such great attempt that is made is to create a sort of “Hindu Fundamentalism” that equals to Christian/Islamic Fundamentalism when there is no ideological parallel. When people draw such parallels, it shows the intellectual dishonesty of that person who does such comparison. The worst part is a conclusion is made based on this ignorance.

First of all there is no such thing called a violent “Hindu” organisations. Many violent responses from Hindus that we see is a result of continues intolerance brought on Hindus. The threat and impact from Multinational Islamic Terrorism and Multinational Christian Conversion Agenda is too huge to dismiss it lightly, but yet still we see a lot of people denying these facts. They assume that Hindus are super-immune to whatever harm done to them. They pretend not to have seen any evidence to perceive these threats, when in reality here are abundant facts available online from these groups who makes their agenda known blatantly with reports on their activities and progress.

Just go thru some of these websites run by the MN Christians groups targeting India and it reveals a lot…

* Mission Frontiers — Mission Frontiers is published bi-monthly by the U.S. Center for World Mission and is dedicated to fostering a global movement to establish an indigenous, and self-reproducing church planting movement amongst all of the 10,000 unreached peoples (ethnic groups) of the world as soon as possible…
* The State of World Evangelization — “Evangelical Christians are the fastest growing major religious group in the world today and it is the only one growing rapidly by conversion.”
* Joshua Project — “Go therefore, and make disciples of all the nations”, Jesus said it 2,000 years ago. Where do we stand today?
* Gospel.com — Gospel.com is the online gateway to the Gospel.com Ministry Community. It’s a place where content from the hundreds of Christian ministries in the Community can organized their content. The goal is to make the resources of the Community …. online articles, music, podcasts, Bible studies, devotionals, and much more. … every one has been created by a Christian organization that’s passionate about reaching the internet with a message of hope–the message of Jesus.
* Gospel for Asia — trains and sends native missionaries because they have proven extremely effective. They are already familiar with the language and culture, and they live at the level of the people they serve, thus removing many social barriers…. Thousands of native workers are being trained and sent to the mission fields of Asia every year through Gospel for Asia. But many more are needed if the millions in these countries are to hear the Gospel in our lifetime. … To date 54 Bible colleges have been established in India, Nepal, Bangladesh, Myanmar, Sri Lanka and at the Bhutan border. Currently, nearly 9,000 young men and women are currently receiving training.
* Good News for India — Good News for India is an interdenominational Christian organization that is committed to training, sending out, and supporting national missionaries to preach the Gospel and plant churches among the unreached people groups of the Indian subcontinent.
* World Vision — World Vision is an international partnership of Christians whose mission is to follow our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ in working with the poor and oppressed to promote human transformation, seek justice and bear witness to the good news of the Kingdom of God.
* Evangelical Baptist Missions — EBM exists to help churches around the world lead the way in global ministry.
* TEAM — TEAM’s purpose is to help churches send missionaries to establish reproducing churches among the nations to the ‘glory of God’. TEAM is an evangelical mission agency which, in alliance with churches around the world, has planted and established ‘Bible-believing’ congregations on every continent. TEAM personnel contribute to this goal as they live out their faith through many avenues, including education, media and literature, relief and development and health-care.
* Indian Evangelical Mission — The Indian Evangelical Mission is an indigenous and inter-denominational missionary organization labouring in India and outside for more than 35 years. The IEM is headquartered in Bangalore and now it has mission fields spread across about 37 places in India and in six other countries – UK, Sudan, West Asia, Thailand, Papua New Guinea and Philippines. It has 463 missionaries working among nearly 50 different people groups all over India. The Lord has brought thousands of people to His fold through the ministry of IEM over the years. A people group comprises of people of same colour, culture and socio-economic linguistic background. The IEM missionaries will be trained to work among a people group and after the completion of their training at IEM’s Outreach Training Institute (OTI), they will be sent to the mission field to learn their language and live among them so as to fulfill God’s commission. When a few people respond to the gospel a worship center is started in that place, after a period of time when the missionaries are certain that they are firm in the Lord, they are then given baptism and gradually a church will be established and the new believers are taught to minister and to share the gospel to their own people.
* Indien-Allianz-Mission — Christian non-governmental organization from Germany. It is active in evangelization and humanitarian help throughout the world.
* World Evangelical Alliance — World Evangelical Alliance is a global ministry working with local churches around the world to join in common concern to live and proclaim the Good News of Jesus in their communities. WEA is a network of churches in 128 nations that have each formed an evangelical alliance and over 100 international organizations joining together to give a worldwide identity, voice and platform to more than 420 million evangelical Christians. Seeking holiness, justice and renewal at every level of society – individual, family, community and culture, God is glorified and the nations of the earth are forever transformed.

These are anti-national outfits operating in India and essentially these activities are anti-Hindu in nature and bent on eliminating the Hindus with all means. Why no one speaks of banning these groups operating in India but instead talking about banning BD which is only responding aggressively against these forces? If Hindus responds to these groups violently due to failure on the legal front and if you think it is wrong, then tell how these activities can be brought to an end in a non-violent way?

Vish, I have not said that BD=SIMI. I just tried to see whether there are any similarities, and in their ideology there seem to be similarities although Hindus do not want to convert others. I have said that clearly in my post. Hindus also seem to differ on the way they operate. I do believe however there is Hindu fundamentalism and as a non-religious person I fear it. Naturally, as a Hindu, I should fear the Hindu fundamentalists? I hate the idea of religion in all its forms and firmly believe that all religions denigrate women. In any case nowhere have I said, and nor do I believe that Hindu fundamentalists are terrorists or that they are funded by Pakistan. Islamic outfits like Indian Mujahideen are indeed terrorists and are funded by our enemy. So in this sense there is no comparison. But yes, I do believe in the existence of Hindu fundamentalists. And I do not think the comparison between World Vision and BD is valid either. Although I think that monetary induced conversions should be made illegal.- Nita.

” Many violent responses from Hindus that we see is a result of continues intolerance brought on Hindus.

Just look at those pivot points of operations of jihadists,they too will have a long story of oppression and distress..But violence is never the way out..If you feel your statement is logically right,maybe you agree and support those jihadisst too..But my sense of justice tells me that both are wrong..

Yes, I do understand that it’s violence that elicits a strong response, and that knee-jerk response is exactly what I’m trying to question. Otherwise, this cycle of violence will continue.

Here’s a thought experiment for you. I go into a Christian community and start distributing a pamphlet that says nasty things about Jesus and his mother Mary, hints at sexual relationships between Jesus and his male disciples, questions the beliefs of Christians and points out the destruction that Christian missionaries have done around the world (inquisition, burning of women as witches, decimation of non-white cultures) and ask them to leave their religion and convert to another because theirs is inferior and “bad.”

What would be your response? Keep in mind that according to you, I haven’t broken any law.

As for Hindutva hijacking the religion, if more Hindus had been genuinely interested in learning about Hinduism instead of equating Hinduism with caste system and dismissing it as useless, maybe it wouldn’t have happened. One can’t have it both ways – dismiss one’s Hindu identity because of a sense of guilt, shame and false perceptions, or because it’s the “progressive/liberal” thing to do without examining what those labels mean; and then cry uncle when someone else does an act in the name of Hindus. Let’s face it – we’re more interested in discussing the ideas (and being in awe) of Rand or Marx than Tagore or Vivekanand, and wallow in guilt and ignorance based on popular misconceptions about Hinduism.

the media tends to report violence more than it does conversions. Isn’t violence worse than conversion? I think so.

Wowwww.. What is the reason for the violence?? It is the conversions. If media had reported that and our waked up our sleeping govt then it would have been possible to stop the violence. But media just wants spice news. Just like this post itself. Since there is spice involved more people read and watch. Now that’s journalism and not business.

Guttu, Have I said that the media did right by not highlighting the conversions? I said this is how it is, violence is reported more and yes it is worse than the conversions (and that is one of the reasons why violence has become a weapon to get attention of the media). But clearly you have no answer to that. And my post is spiced up? That is such a silly statement🙂 Have you even read the strongly worded articles on this issue which have been appearing everywhere I wonder. I would advise you to beef up your reading. But thanks for giving your views. – Nita. !

Amit, I know you have addressed the comment to wishtobanon, and I apologize for butting in but I cannot resist saying that if you did all those things, I would approach the justice system. I would organize peaceful marches, write letters, start an organisation to create awareness, tap media contacts, file a case against those spreading hatred etc etc… Sure I would fight a battle which it seems cannot be won, but I would never pick up a stick to hit people and nor would I give speeches to incite people to violence.
I would promptly disassociate myself from anyone indulging in violence – because whether it is mental violence (as of those who are trying to convert) or physical violence – I abhor it.
I guess violence, whether mental or physical, frightens me, because I feel unable to deal with it.

p.s. I firmly believe that the media can be influenced. Do you know that two articles have appeared in the mainstream media about the stealing of photos and articles by mainstream media? I never thought I would see such a day, but because all of us bloggers have got together the outrage has spread! I know this is a little off-topic, but trying to make a point. The media would never ignore mental violence by christian missionaries, it needed nudging, that’s all. We all need to make a fuss. Violence is not the way to get the attention, that’s all I am saying. – Nita.

There is no need to find similarities. Such attempt only gives a false notion that these problems are due to same root cause or motive and blinds oneself from seeing these issues from the right perspective. Assuming that their ideology seems to be similar is a sign of ignorance too. This is lazy man’s analysis.

I do believe however there is Hindu fundamentalism and as a non-religious person I fear it

Here is where I differ from you. You need to make effort to understand what the term “fundamentalism” stands for. Well if you want to know why I differ, we can have another discussion.

What I see here is, you see things using different yardstick between religious and non-religious in a similar way the Christians or Muslims see the world from the angle of believers and non-believers. Here whatever the believers do is right and whatever the non-believers do is wrong condemned and attacked. I think the dominance of Christian thought and Islamic thinking is so dominant today that we Hindus are also thinking from the same prism thus it blinds the Hindu perspective totally.

I will say that this type of thinking is the root cause of intolerance in this world. Hindu thought in general do not make distinction between Hindu and non-Hindu, however the Judeo-Christian notion that separates the Humanity into all sorts of division mainly believers and non-believers is the driving force behind all conversion activities. The idea behind conversion itself is to convert the non-believers to believers. In fact they see the non-believers differently as Kafir or Infidels. Why naturally Hindus do not seek conversion is not due to coincident, but rather it is due to the fundamental fact that there is no division between believers and non-believers.

Unfortunately these Judeo-Christian thought has inflicted the Hindu thinking that blinds them from seeing the true perspectives and today we see some of them echoing the Christian, Muslim and Marxist counterpart promoting their separatist and exclusive agenda.

I hate the idea of religion in all its forms and firmly believe that all religions denigrate women.

The concept of “religion” itself is a Judeo-Christian origin and there is no equivalent in the Indic perspective. We only have Dhrama as our worldview. The whole issue here is due to the conflict between Dhrama and religion. Instead of hating religion it will do well if you can promote Dhrama itself. However I would like to warn you that, it may lead you to be branded as “Hindu Fundamentalist” or communal because you will be challenging the Judeo-Christian conception that promotes separatism and exclusivist thinking.

I do not think the comparison between World Vision and BD is valid either.

Did I make any comparison in my post between World Vision and BD? Not at all. My emphasis was, BD’s (in reality it is no BD but Hindus in general) aggression is due to these unhealthy developments by these groups that is affecting the tolerant Indian society. The point I am bringing up here is who is advocating banning the BD? It is the lobby of Marxists and Christian groups. They find that groups like BD that are against conversion activities are threats to their operation, therefore are advocating banning these groups so that they can operate freely. To my surprise I find it odd that Hindus like you are echoing what these Christians want us to do. Why you didn’t raise the banning of these Christians missionaries in the first place which is more dangerous? The creation of Pakistan and Bangladesh is one good example to show what systematic aggressive conversion can lead to. In places like Nagaland and Tripura when there is high growth of Christian groups there are many Christian outfits indulging in terrorism, but we don’t see people advocate action taken against them in the same way they are doing it for BD. Why there is a partiality in views? What is the root cause of this one sided aggression or intolerance? Do you have the mindset that whatever Christian masters says is “secular” and whatever the Hindus says is “communal”?

No vish I disagree. In fact I think attempts not to compare is very lazy. Our brain needs to constantly think, try to find comparisons, similarities, dissimilarities. To not want to do this is lazy and also shows a mental block I am afraid.
About differences in what we both terms as fundamentalism, that is entirely possible. Yes, one day I will write a separate post on it.🙂
Also I see the similarities and dissimilarities and never do I use the same yardstick.
However I do not believe in Hindu Dharma either. I am an agnostic, I reject all religion and even irreligious dogma, and if anything as time goes on I am veering towards atheism.
And well I thought you were making a comparison between BD and World Vision. Thanks for clarifying. I do understand what you are saying Vish, and I doubt whether fundamentally we disagree. – Nita.
p.s. also when it comes to definition of secularism why are you assuming that I think being pro-christian is secular? Is there a single sentence anywhere of mine that makes you assume that or are you venting your anger against christian missionaries against me? I have made it quite clear that being pro-hindu is certainly not being secular! And I am sure you understand what I mean. Secularism is not being pro any single religion, whether hinduism or christianity or islam.

To not want to do this is lazy and also shows a mental block I am afraid.

Well making comparisons, similarities, dissimilarities helps in certain study, but essentially it won’t help when making analysis for issues like this. I will say that this is the root cause of all misinformation that is floating around today. A good way of analysis is to see things objectively from its own angle.

Due to this kind of lazy man’s analysis, today we have a big issue due to this. Hinduism is seen from the same prism of Islam and Christianity when it is not the same in all aspect. The Hindu worldview is totally opposite in comparison to Judeo-Christian views that using the same categories, terms and notion to evaluate Hindu Dharma has lead to a lot of ignorance. Today we have many people who view Hindu Dharma from Judeo-Christian worldview and failure to see the perspective from true Hindu perspective, thus the root cause of many misunderstandings. One good example is the misnomer “Hindu fundamentalism”. . . is a result of seeing things from a Judeo-Christian worldview.

However I do not believe in Hindu Dharma either. I am an agnostic, I reject all religion and even irreligious dogma, and if anything as time goes on I am veering towards atheism.

When you reject something then you have to believe in something as a alternative. There is no neutral ground here. Atheism also is an ideology and has caused many ills in societies. Even here, there are 2 kinds of atheist thinking in this world. One is Judeo-Christian type and another which is Indic type.

In fact irrespective of a person beliefs whether they are religious, non-religious, spiritual, dogmatic, non-dogmatic, agnostic or atheist, open-minded, free thinker etc., when it comes to worldview, it is either Indic or Judeo-Christian thought system. Please note, when I say Judeo-Christian that do not mean he or she must believe in Christianity or Judaism or Islam. It only means a shared worldview and how they think.

Many concepts about individuals, societies, religion, nation, social justice, rights, freedom, perception of good and evil, politics, ideologies, science, nature and the world can be traced back to Judeo-Christian and Indic roots or way of thinking. They are build upon these respective thought system to an extent they represent a totally opposed paradigm of viewing the world and the issues surrounding it.

e.g. if I ask, do you believe in many life (re-births) or in single life? If you say single life then you are thinking from Judeo-Christian view. But if you say this life is a series of many lives, then it is Indic. You can’t say I don’t believe in both or believe in both. Similarly if I ask if you consider time to be cyclic or linier and if you say linier, then it is Judeo-Christian and cyclic is Indic. In every expect of views, you will can see these contrast.

Also remember…. this is important… Dharma is not co-terminus with religion…. the closest Indian word for religion is pantha. While ‘secular’ is the opposite of ‘religion’ and ‘communal’, Dharma is neither secular in the sense of being anti-religious nor communal in the sense of favoring a particular sect.

What we see today, many people are advocating “secular” views [Judeo-Christian origin] and not “dharmic” views [Indic origin]. (even this is not done correctly as pseudo-secularism is prevalent today) Secularism does not necessarily mean “respecting all faith”, or “tolerance of another faith” as it is practiced in the West. It simply means separation of church and state. However the Indian ethos of “secularism” has been taken to mean “respecting for all faith”, and “tolerance of another faith” based on dharmic views. However this is only one aspect of it while dharma is a profound concept. Only dhramic ways can create a peaceful and progressive society, while “secularism” and “religion” will always divide man and promote “exclusivist” mindset and it will always end with conflict.

I am here not to advocate that you believe in this or that view, but what I am illustrating is, irrespective of what position you take, you will still promote a certain view… e.g. if you promote dharma, you will get the good results of it, but instead if you promote adharma, you will get the bad result of it. At the end of the day, it is no point blaming the Hindus when no one bothers to follow Indic view which emphasizes on dharma. With the Judeo-Christian concepts imposed on Hindus if it turns out to be wrong, then where should the blame go?

Just look around and see . . . we have people propagating “secularism”, “marxism”, “communism”, “freedom to conversion”, “religious exclusivism” etc. and where did all these ideology originated? No where on earth these ideologies have created peace and harmony if it has caused more harm today at the expense of Dhrama, then why Hindus are blamed?

Vish, you love to put people in a box don’t you!🙂 I know why you are doing this, you want to understand where I am coming from, what I think. This is a grave mistake, and to my mind very simplistic thinking. Lazy man’s analysis I am afraid!🙂 You don’t want to see the complexities! If you have been reading my blog you know I detest labels and stereotypes and I realise you are full of them.
Also you have no right to tell me what to analyse or what not to. I think it speaks of an arrogance which I am not comfortable with.
Put me in a box if it helps you understand, but kindly let us agree to disagree. Also I am not an atheist. It is said so clearly in my comment but maybe I might become it.
Also I find your comment that I am promoting something distasteful. I realise that you think even expression of someone’s ideas and beliefs which are contrary to yours is unacceptable. You do think very differently from me I realised. Remember, you have no right to try and intimidate me saying my way of thinking will have bad consequences. I realised with your last comment that my thinking is not at all like yours as I do not believe in imposing my views on others.
I also have no time to answer comments which says that people who think like me will have bad consequences! I have my own views about people who think like you, who want to impose their viewpoint (by saying only their “religious” ways will have good consequences!) and I am glad I have got out of this rut called religion. I have a right to be what I am and unlike you, I can accept religious people and their ideas but I do not think they are inferior or superior to me. You apparently cannot accept agnostics. Kindly do not say such things and any further intimidation like this will not be published.

(Later: this “vish” is not the vish who had been commenting on my blog the whole of the last year. Email id, and IP address is different. In fact there are two other “vish”‘s on my blog who are my older commentators (but haven’t commented for some months) and this vish is an entirely new commentator. This new vish, or rather the commentator who calls himself vish has written a comment on this blog under the name of “Jagat” (same email address). This means he is using multiple identities and commenting on this blog. This is the link to his other comment.

In his book “Communal Rage In Secular India” (Popular Prakashan, September 2002) Dr Zakaria devoted the entire last chapter to “What Muslims Should Do?”, and accepting that there is a great deal of among Indian Muslims who believed there is little they can do to save themselves, he recommended the following.

Confrontation has done no good to the Muslims. 1. The only alternative is for them is to change their outlook. Muslims must try and become an integral part of the mainstream. They must wholeheartedly collaborate in enriching composite nationalism. For this, they must get out of their ghetto mentality, break the barriers of alienation and generate a harmonious environment.

2. They must discard their worn-out prejudices and outmoded habits and adjust themselves to the requirements of the changing times. They must stop asking for doles which will only cripple them, and instead learn to stand on their own feet because the fact is that they have no true friends; many who show them sympathy are not sincere and do so only for electoral gain. Even Muslims from other countries have never come to their rescue. This has been proved time and again, and the wise must now take the hint and correct themselves.

3. Muslims continue to live in a make-believe world of their own. Their leaders waste their energies in whipping up emotions and bringing more trouble to the ordinary Muslims. There are also the other “warriors” — priests, academicians, journalists — who add fuel to the fire by taking up cudgels on behalf of the community. Indian Muslims have to come out of this quagmire; they must show such self-appointed champions of their cause in their place; they must do their best to change the hostile attitude of the Hindus against them and take their proper share in the nation’s development.

4. Indian Muslims must join hands with liberal Hindus to work zealously for harmony between the two communities. To succeed in this task, they must change their own behaviour, indeed their entire perception.

5. Indian Muslims must boldly come forward to undergo all-round transformation in their style of functioning. The younger generation in particular will have to arm themselves both educationally and socially. They will succeed if parents shed their old habits, give up their outdated notions, and help encourage and help their sons and daughters to get the best education. Merit alone will give them reward; they must never seek patronage.

6. Indian Muslims must disarm the jihadis and disown the bigotism which has made Muslims pariahs everywhere. They must give assurance to the non-Muslims that their religion stands for “live and let live”. This reformation will rejuvenate Islam itself.

7. Without compromising the Quranic injunctions, Indian Muslims must agree to the introduction of certain much-needed, essential changes in the Personal, particularly the enactment of monogamy. There is, in fact, enough scope under the Shariah to amend the laws relating to marriage, divorce, dower and even maintenance.
The controversy on the singing of Vande Mataram is meaningless. It was sung by all Muslim leaders of the Congress during the freedom struggle. Those Muslims who do not want to sing it, may not, but they must stand up when it is sung as a mark of respect to an anthem which has a hoary past and is declared as a national song. Why add hurt to an already worsening communal relationship?
There is the question of family planning on which much of our country’s progress depends. It cannot be denied that Muslims have not taken to it as seriously as Hindus. This has to be corrected. There must be a vigorous campaign for its implementation among Muslims and their leaders in every sector must engage themselves to persuade them to adopt it so that they do not lag behind Hindus in fulfilling this most urgent task, without which India cannot succeed in eradicating poverty.

8. Muslims must make a sustained effort to convince Hindus that they should have no fear of them and assure them that they harbour no enmity towards them, nor are in a secret conspiracy with Muslims elsewhere to harm them. They must give assurance that Muslims are as much the sons of the soil as Hindus and as committed to the country’s glory and prosperity as Hindus are.
Finally, the punch line. “What Indian Muslims have to understand is that eventually it is not their leaders but they themselves who will have to make their destiny.”

Let me try to reply to the points by Harshad,indeed thought provoking..🙂

1. Muslims all around the world,Indian muslims in particular have been hell bent over telling everybody that terrorism is not part of their religion ..Even the ultra radical conservative Deobands(the school of thought associated with Taliban and other jihadists) have been talking against against this killing in the name of religion..It is not my problem that you didn’t see and hear this news..

About 20000 Islamic teachers, pupils & maulavees from all over India took part in it. For the first time in India, such a huge gathering gave their opinions against terrorism. It is said that the instant Taliban thought in Afghanistan is inspired by Darul Uloom at Deoband. Whereas at present the Taliban thought is being seen as a synonym of terrorism. When the stories of barbarism of the Talibanis are being heard, to announce a Fatwa by Darul Uloom, Deoband against terrorism, to tell that the terrorism is anti-Islamic & killing of the innocent people against the Islam & the Quran Shareef is good news for the peace loving world.

..Deal criminals by law,not by religious sentiments..But what we see around is vote bank politics..Political parties still don’t punish criminals like Afsal Guru ..I hate the idea of criminals eating and sleeping in jails,using my tax ..Hang murderes and rapists,soon after trial..Don’t waste money feeding them..

2.What does that mean by saying ‘their own prejudices etc etc etc’..I am a muslim(pls dn’t call me ‘moderate’,i don’t like that word) I grew old along with people ,never bothered about caste and in my lifetime,i never came across a muslim who is loaded with prejudices and moving around trying to make his own world..Infact most muslims don’t enroll their kids in muslims schools simply for community sake..I as a mother will sent my kid only to a good school,no matter what religion it is,as I myself studied in a Christian school..Environment changes people and i can’t sit in my a/c room and judge people for their own reasonings.

And by saying ‘asking for doles’ ,if you mean stuff like Hajj subsidy,then pls enlighten yourself as to know what this hypocritical ‘subsidy’ is all about..In nutshell,it is all about making use of vote bank..governemnt is doing this to leech out money from pilgrimages to keep monopoly of Air india over the sector..Any dumb person would know the IATA policy of subsidized rates,if booking is done in bulk..Besides all that its been long muslims have been asking government to stop this ‘subsidy’ as it is not permissible to travel using somebody else’s money..even BJP government didn’t bother to stop this..WHY? Pls open your eyes and understand that all political parties are aking us for a ride..They brianwash us and we bang head to each other and they move forward with their own motives,succesfully..Moreover,India is a secular country and provided funds for many religious functions..So a secular person need not feel bad even it was subsidy in real..lol..I wonder what this ‘minority appeasement’ is all about?If it had been any real,minorities would have become Tata’s and Birla’s by now..

3.Fully agreed..Most of the leaders as of today are simply useless and infact dangerous..They do nothing except make rifts more deeper..Muslims should come our of this highjacked situation and speak for themselves,instead of letting OSama being their spokeman..As i always say,unless one bothers to speak for himself,he can’t point fingers at somebody else making false statements..Muslim community as a whole is not doing much for its own revival..

4.Ageed..Infact,almost all hindus and muslims stand together in times of worries,even to this day..Its that people and media with vested interest are trying to project more of negative side..and never talk about the harmonious side..But what was the ending clause all about uh?”Change their own behavior”…Better change your attitude that everybody in this world should be programmed to output same thoughts and actions ..and **cough cough**,are you a saint?Are you sure you are someone to be idealized?? Its not muslims alone,lot of people need to “Change your own behaviour” of raping and burning women and like exploiting tribals to change religion..

5.I agree to some extent..There are some people who are conservative enough to not let their kids choose their way..But here you are generalizing acts of a minority as a whole frame..I am a muslim girl and all people i have seen around me are educated and working,from IAS people to Teachers to Social activits..I am myself a software engineer and doing MBA,with 16th rank in all india level..My cousins have secured ranks in university levels,lately,my first cousin,studying i London ,have secured first rank in his Masters degree and winning the award for best paper ever in history in NANOMEDICINE..I can provide reference if you feel i am lying🙂 Likely almost all people around are moving forward..You are just generalizing based on number of people going to Madrassas..Though i personally don’t like the idea,they choose thier way..Don’t we have hindu priests and christian priests around??Are you expecting the whole society to become engineers and doctors?

6.Again ,the first point..We normal muslims are not moving around carrying bombs in vanity bags and pants pockets,nor are we interested in AK -47s..do you know what is ‘jihad’?Go get a dictionary and then comment..

Polygamy is allowed under cases like war where number of men become very low and humanity needs to sustain..even then,there are rules as to how to provide for wives and all..Its not how you see some bigots moving around marrying .Simply bcoz some people are wrong,how can the religion be wrong uh?Muslims are not angels on earth..we are just another human being like you..Are all hindus and christians angels on earth?Don’t hindu men rape girls?Don’t christian men have msitress?Don’t hindu men kill people? But i never associated it with Hinduism or christianity..Now you’re gonna say “Jihadidts quote Quran”..lol..Find for yourself what the truth is..If interested,you are welcome to read my posts on these matters..And by the way,you have no right to point fingers even at these polygamy bigots,bcoz today you are busy patronizing mistress’s and live in relationships and arguing that indian culture encloses such ‘broad’ views..So pls shut up…

lol..I challenge you to bring the relative difference between kids in hindus and muslims..I tell you that it is below 1%..So pls do some reading before telling that muslims are baby machines producing tons of kids..Only a small percentage,and that included hindus ,muslims and christians ,have more number of kids. Many have small family..

Some of you fanatic barbaric people have highjacked my Bharatmata..Get out of my land. let we,the normal people ,live in peace and harmony..

This is a reply to the author who wrote this..and not to Harshad ..Thanks Harshad for quoting this and providing me a change to point to others what these harm these pseudo liberalists are doing ..They so nothing except tarnishing the social fabric day by day by making rifts deeper and deeper..I hope i made sense atleast to a single person..

Nita, you have mentioned that the police are reluctant to act on Bajrang dal violence.

Let me try to explain. Bajrang dal and other sangh parivar organizations are reactive organizations to Christian/Muslim aggression. In other words they will not exist if the firt cause ceases.

Anti national activities have to be accorded more importance than goondaism. The agenda of both the missionaries and SIMI like organisations which was to turn India to an Islamic state or a Christiandom are not in the interest of India and a very serious threat to the nation.

It is also instructive and contextual to learn from global experience, the destruction the semitic religions have wrought on non semitic, non aggressive religions.

A Hitler and a pickpocket cannot compared by saying they both are criminals. One is a criminal of gigantic proportions.

the situation is clear ,it is either muslim organization or hindu,if they are doing activities against the nation they should be banned.nothing comes before nation,simi &bajrang dal are involed in heinous crimes ie killing of people&distrupting the communal harmony in my opinion both are same.according to quran if you kill a innocent person you kill whole humanity.

Ozder@Nita, I totally agree with you on the point that mobs/groups retorting to violence is unlawful, however found it really difficult to digest the words that ‘conversion should be allowed-demand-supply factor etc’- The fight against conversion should be considered as a noble fight on humanitarian grounds for several reasons-
1. one religion claiming they are better, they have better resources and converting people of different faith is sheer blasphemy, it adds to religious fanaticism, secetrianism and bigotry.
2. It’s adding more and more pressure on the diversity of this world, thereby the act itself is unholy and disrupts the ecology of the world.
3. If sacrifice and godliness is what they (When I say “they” it Involves-Hindu, Muslim, Christian or any group that believes in conversion system) expect, then the poor people should be provided with what they need and should be left with their faith and values. That is sacrifice-Not expecting a return from the noble act, whenever a return is expected then the same could be classified as a business deal.
4. Violance could be classified into 2- physical and mental- while the physical violance would heal the latter wouldn’t and tends to remain inside for even longer time. Conversion falls in the second category-Mental violance (Since it follows the principle- Iam good and u are bad policy) ,and could be classified as class violance.
To that effect I would really appreciate “Kerala Nadvathul Mujahideen (KNM)” who recently claimed that forced religious conversion is an illegal and non-religious practice. People in the country have the freedom to follow any faith or religion, it said.
I would like to end up saying = Conversion disrupts the ecology and law needs to be amended to “Ban” the act-along with outfits that propogate religious fundamentalism.
It was highly disheartening to note that you equated such an untruly, unholy, unmeaningfull, illegal act with “demand supply factor” and tried to give the act a logical masala flavour.
I condemn, dispute and accuse your wrong act- since ur comment would have also hurt the people who are working hard to form a law to stop the ugly act….
I condemn, dispute and accuse your wrong act- since ur comment would have also hurt the sentiments of people who are working hard to upbring the ecological heritage of this country….
I condemn, dispute and accuse your wrong act- which without understanding the intensity of the conversion dared to cob it with highly illogocal comment – Iam ready to pray 2 hours extra since it meets the demand supply factor.

However I appreciate, salute and congratulate you for opening such a sensitive issue

Harikrishnan, I almost deleted your comment because you have accused me of something I have never said. However as this is the first time you have twisted my post and comment, I am allowing your comment. If I find that your next comments puts words in my mouth, words I have not uttered then your comment will go to trash. What amazes me is why people assume that my commentators and me are the same. Or why people assume that diverse views should not be expressed! Anyone who feels that diverse views should not be expressed, please do not comment on my blog. You are not welcome. EVERY VIEW is welcome here, and I will not trash any viewpoint, whether you or anybody else condemns it. All viewpoints have their own sense of logic and I welcome them all. This is a forum. That’s all it is. Thanks. – Nita.

Simi is dangerous for country and are terrorist . Bajarang Dal and Simi no comparission .
I want to ask the way congress ask –“If Osama was declared terrorist after killing 3000 Americans
and Alkaida was declared terrorist organization then why Congress Party, after killing 24000 Siks, is not
terrorist organisation . Congress Party is more dangerous than Alkaida and must be banned”

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