He should not be playing 1st pairing minutes, he's not ready and it is destroying his confidence and our lack of minute eating defensemen can only stunt his progression. It showed last season. Florida did the same thing with Bouwmeester...

That we agree.

I disagree about destroying his confidence, but we'll just have to wait couple of seasons and see.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pwnasaurus

Just watch the games, he did regress defensively, whether that is a byproduct of being thrust into a less than optimal situation for his growth or not, it happened.

He should not be playing 1st pairing minutes, he's not ready and it is destroying his confidence and our lack of minute eating defensemen can only stunt his progression. It showed last season. Florida did the same thing with Bouwmeester...

Just watch the games, he did regress defensively, whether that is a byproduct of being thrust into a less than optimal situation for his growth or not, it happened.

Defensively is not at all where any regression was. He took steps forward in the defensive zone. It was his offensive game which took a step back, and frankly part of that was because he was being used wrong. He was stapled to the blue line, which handcuffed him a bit. Boudreau made a mistake in that department, and we should all hope he learns from that mistake. There's a reason the offensive side of his game looked better under Carlyle, and then later under Gordon at the WC's.

As for his role, Zapp is correct. He was put into a much bigger role. Looking at the minutes doesn't do it justice. He was playing a top pairing role, and whether he was ready for it or not is moot, in this discussion. Anaheim didn't have a better alternative.

I definitely felt he looked unsure of himself at times, but that was mostly in the offensive zone when he was stapled to the blue line. I got the impression his natural instincts wanted were to do one thing, but that Boudreau wanted something else. I say Boudreau, because Carlyle and Gordon didn't seem to want the same thing from him, and he didn't show the same kind of hesitation. But repeatedly beaten in 1-on-1 situations? Not really. Usually the times I saw him beat was when he was outnumbered along the boards. His biggest problem along the boards is he isn't quite strong enough yet. I was pretty happy with his play in 1-on-1 situations, except when he didn't close the gap quickly enough. The biggest mistakes I saw from him in the D zone were some of the turnovers, or earlier in the season when he wasn't as quick to get his stick on an opposing player in front of the net.

he wasn't as quick to get his stick on an opposing player in front of the net.

Yep. To me those are 1-1 battles (sometimes in terms of just getting outmuscled there) though that need to be won and mental lapses that can't happen.

Basically, the biggest problem I see with this team is that last year the entire d-corps was forced up a bit and playing out of their comfort zone of where they should be slotted. Now with the departure of Visnovsky who took on a bulk of minutes and what looks to me as counting on Souray to be a significant part of this d-corps in the foreseeable future, I just see the same cycle happening again this year.

On a sidenote, whatever happened to Chock Full of Booger/Spanaktola Jamnuts? We were always both in favor of holding the players accountable...even if they happen to play for our favorite team.

Yep. To me those are 1-1 battles (sometimes in terms of just getting outmuscled there) though that need to be won and mental lapses that can't happen.

Basically, the biggest problem I see with this team is that last year the entire d-corps was forced up a bit and playing out of their comfort zone of where they should be slotted. Now with the departure of Visnovsky who took on a bulk of minutes and what looks to me as counting on Souray to be a significant part of this d-corps in the foreseeable future, I just see the same cycle happening again this year.

On a sidenote, whatever happened to Chock Full of Booger/Spanaktola Jamnuts? We were always both in favor of holding the players accountable...even if they happen to play for our favorite team.

That's not losing a 1-on-1 battle, Pwn. That's just an experience issue, as you don't really win or lose that type of play. You either get your stick on their stick, or you don't. Expecting no mistakes from a 19/20 year old isn't even a little realistic. Hell, Niedermayer and Pronger occasionally made those mistakes, and they're future HHOF defensemen.

There's a difference between holding players accountable, and lambasting them for every little mistake, while not even acknowledging some of the good they did. There isn't a single person who has said they aren't expecting better from Fowler next season, or that there aren't things he needs to work on. The same goes for Sbisa. The same will go for Vatanen when he gets his chance. And Lindholm. That's part of a player's development.

Yep. To me those are 1-1 battles (sometimes in terms of just getting outmuscled there) though that need to be won and mental lapses that can't happen.

Basically, the biggest problem I see with this team is that last year the entire d-corps was forced up a bit and playing out of their comfort zone of where they should be slotted. Now with the departure of Visnovsky who took on a bulk of minutes and what looks to me as counting on Souray to be a significant part of this d-corps in the foreseeable future, I just see the same cycle happening again this year.

On a sidenote, whatever happened to Chock Full of Booger/Spanaktola Jamnuts? We were always both in favor of holding the players accountable...even if they happen to play for our favorite team.

The people on these boards are generally on board with holding players accountable - until you criticize one of their favorites. Some have more favorites than others. (Some have only favorites).

And I actually agree with you that Fowler took a step back. I just don't think that's out of line with what's to be expected of him. But he's a big boy now and he's out of excuses, at least as far as I'm concerned. So for me, holding him accountable means this year, he'd better deserve that top spot.

Dunno how popular this will be, but I have a "game" for you. Not a fun game, but more a thought exercise. I want to compare Souray's salary to the salary of other UFAs. We can do this with the other players too, but Souray's contract is clearly the most controversial one.

First a baseline. This is what I think prior to doing exercise. I think an 82 game Souray is worth about 3 million. He's a #4-5 who can play both special teams. I think Souray is actually worth more like 2 million. Under that actually. Basically he misses some 30 games a year, meaning you should pay him 5/8 of what he should command while healthy.

Now on to the comparables game. Basically if player X is worth the salary they got Y, then how much should a healthy Souray be worth. My answers that follow are not necessarily done with a lot of research, just based off my general views of the player.

If Allen is worth 3.5, then healthy Souray is worth 3
If Beauchemin is worth 3.5, then healthy Souray is worth 2.5
If Carle is worth 5.5, then healthy Souray is worth 4.5
If Suter is worth 7.5, then healthy Souray is worth 2.5
If Salvador is worth 3.2, then healthy Souray is worth 2.8
If Brookbank is worth 1.2, then healthy Souray is worth 2.7
If Garrison is worth 4.6, then healthy Souray is worth 3.6
If Salo is worth 3.8, then healthy Souray is worth 3.5
If Aucoin is worth 2.3, then healthy Souray is worth 3.2
If Kuba is worth 4.0, then healthy Souray is worth 3.7

I think what this exercise showed me is that I still think Souray is overpaid, but probably not by as much as I originally thought (if you assume he will be completely healthy). This UFA crop seems to be a little crazy, and his price tag isn't too out of line with the other guys. OTH, I still do not like the "if healthy" assumption and I really think we will be paying for it. If he retires, then the 35+ part doesn't matter. But if he still plays the seasons and goes on IR, then we are in trouble because we still pay his salary, we need to pay a replacement, and the team is still a budget team.

I'd be curious to see other people's valuations of the various players. For these or any other guys.

Dunno how popular this will be, but I have a "game" for you. Not a fun game, but more a thought exercise. I want to compare Souray's salary to the salary of other UFAs. We can do this with the other players too, but Souray's contract is clearly the most controversial one.

First a baseline. This is what I think prior to doing exercise. I think an 82 game Souray is worth about 3 million. He's a #4-5 who can play both special teams. I think Souray is actually worth more like 2 million. Under that actually. Basically he misses some 30 games a year, meaning you should pay him 5/8 of what he should command while healthy.

Now on to the comparables game. Basically if player X is worth the salary they got Y, then how much should a healthy Souray be worth. My answers that follow are not necessarily done with a lot of research, just based off my general views of the player.

If Allen is worth 3.5, then healthy Souray is worth 3
If Beauchemin is worth 3.5, then healthy Souray is worth 2.5
If Carle is worth 5.5, then healthy Souray is worth 4.5
If Suter is worth 7.5, then healthy Souray is worth 2.5
If Salvador is worth 3.2, then healthy Souray is worth 2.8
If Brookbank is worth 1.2, then healthy Souray is worth 2.7
If Garrison is worth 4.6, then healthy Souray is worth 3.6
If Salo is worth 3.8, then healthy Souray is worth 3.5
If Aucoin is worth 2.3, then healthy Souray is worth 3.2
If Kuba is worth 4.0, then healthy Souray is worth 3.7

I think what this exercise showed me is that I still think Souray is overpaid, but probably not by as much as I originally thought (if you assume he will be completely healthy). This UFA crop seems to be a little crazy, and his price tag isn't too out of line with the other guys. OTH, I still do not like the "if healthy" assumption and I really think we will be paying for it. If he retires, then the 35+ part doesn't matter. But if he still plays the seasons and goes on IR, then we are in trouble because we still pay his salary, we need to pay a replacement, and the team is still a budget team.

I'd be curious to see other people's valuations of the various players. For these or any other guys.

Beauchemin is on a discount.
Carle is overpayed.
I disagree with Suter. I think he is payed the right amount but 2.5 is too little for Souray.

Souray at 3.6 is not that overpayed. The 3 years is what pisses me off.

Dunno how popular this will be, but I have a "game" for you. Not a fun game, but more a thought exercise. I want to compare Souray's salary to the salary of other UFAs. We can do this with the other players too, but Souray's contract is clearly the most controversial one.

First a baseline. This is what I think prior to doing exercise. I think an 82 game Souray is worth about 3 million. He's a #4-5 who can play both special teams. I think Souray is actually worth more like 2 million. Under that actually. Basically he misses some 30 games a year, meaning you should pay him 5/8 of what he should command while healthy.

Now on to the comparables game. Basically if player X is worth the salary they got Y, then how much should a healthy Souray be worth. My answers that follow are not necessarily done with a lot of research, just based off my general views of the player.

If Allen is worth 3.5, then healthy Souray is worth 3
If Beauchemin is worth 3.5, then healthy Souray is worth 2.5
If Carle is worth 5.5, then healthy Souray is worth 4.5
If Suter is worth 7.5, then healthy Souray is worth 2.5
If Salvador is worth 3.2, then healthy Souray is worth 2.8
If Brookbank is worth 1.2, then healthy Souray is worth 2.7
If Garrison is worth 4.6, then healthy Souray is worth 3.6
If Salo is worth 3.8, then healthy Souray is worth 3.5
If Aucoin is worth 2.3, then healthy Souray is worth 3.2
If Kuba is worth 4.0, then healthy Souray is worth 3.7

I think what this exercise showed me is that I still think Souray is overpaid, but probably not by as much as I originally thought (if you assume he will be completely healthy). This UFA crop seems to be a little crazy, and his price tag isn't too out of line with the other guys. OTH, I still do not like the "if healthy" assumption and I really think we will be paying for it. If he retires, then the 35+ part doesn't matter. But if he still plays the seasons and goes on IR, then we are in trouble because we still pay his salary, we need to pay a replacement, and the team is still a budget team.

I'd be curious to see other people's valuations of the various players. For these or any other guys.

I agree with most of these, except you should use Suter's salary over the next 3 years (35 million) rather than his fake cap hit due to his due to his circumvention contract.

Another interesting exercise - how much do you think a position should be paid? #1-#6 D salary, preferably without fake numbers due to circumventions. The reason I ask is that most people think that #6 D should still be making 700K and #4 D should be in the 2M range, which is where they were with a 42M cap even though the cap is now 70M.

I agree with most of these, except you should use Suter's salary over the next 3 years (35 million) rather than his fake cap hit due to his due to his circumvention contract.

Another interesting exercise - how much do you think a position should be paid? #1-#6 D salary, preferably without fake numbers due to circumventions. The reason I ask is that most people think that #6 D should still be making 700K and #4 D should be in the 2M range, which is where they were with a 42M cap even though the cap is now 70M.

Based on the cap and what random defenders make, I'd say it should be somewhere along these lines:

#1 & #2 - $5.5+ million

Borderlines/Players who fall in between and can fill in on top pairing $5-ish million

#3 & #4 - $3.5 - $5 million

Borderline/Players who fall in between and can fill in on second pairing
$3-ish million

#5 & #6 - $2.5 million and under

This year, even though their acquisitions might be questionable, it would appear the Ducks are actually spending the necessary dollars on defense. (Although it would be nice to once again have a true #1, but that's probably out of their budget for now, as well as, no reasonable options available)