TrueTheology.net

A discussion analyzing the correctness of 607 BCE as the fall of Jerusalem and its relevance to 1914 CE, according to Biblical and Historic evidence

Forum rules
“Sanctify the Christ as Lord in your hearts, always ready to make a defense before everyone that demands of you a reason for the hope in you, but doing so together with a mild temper and deep respect.” (1 Peter 3:15)

There is a prophecy that fails according to the 587 chronology schema. It is prophecy concerning Judah's enemy, Tyre.

Shortly after Jerusalem was destroyed, Ezekiel made the following prophecy in Ezekiel chapter 26: “And it came about in the eleventh year... the word of Jehovah occurred to me, saying: “Son of man, for the reason that Tyre has said against Jerusalem, ‘Aha! She has been broken, the doors of the peoples! The trend will certainly be to me. I shall be filled–she has been devastated,’ therefore this is what the Sovereign Lord Jehovah has said, ‘Here I am against you, O Tyre, and I will bring up against you many nations, just as the sea brings up its waves. And they will certainly bring the walls of Tyre to ruin and tear down her towers, and I will scrape her dust away from her and make her a shining, bare surface of a crag.” –verses 1-4

The prophet pulls no punches telling us who will carry out such destruction. He continues saying, “Here I am bringing against Tyre Nebuchadrezzar the king of Babylon”. (verse 7) He describes the Babylonian army to come upon Tyre, “with horses and war chariots and cavalrymen and a congregation, even a multitudinous people... and he must make against you a siege wall and throw up against you a siege rampart and raise up against you a large shield; and the strike of his attack engine he will direct against your walls, and your towers he will pull down, with his swords.” –verses 7-9

If we move back to Isaiah, and look in chapter 23, the prophet there gives even more details of exactly what would happen when Tyre is attacked by Babylon. Speaking in the present-tense as if his prophecy is already happening he says, “Chaldeans. This is the people... They have erected their siege towers; they have stripped bare her dwelling towers; one has set her as a crumbling ruin. Howl, you ships of Tarshish, for your stronghold [Tyre] has been despoiled.” –verse 13

Now comes the important point. “And it must occur in that day that Tyre must be forgotten seventy years, the same as the days of one king. At the end of seventy years it will happen to Tyre as in the song of a prostitute: “Take a harp, go around the city, O forgotten prostitute. Do your best at playing on the strings; make your songs many, in order that you may be remembered.” –verses 14-16

So Tyre will not be destroyed by the Chaldeans (Babylonians) laying siege to her, but will simply cause her to be “forgotten” for “seventy years”. The prophet compares her to a forgotten prostitute who hasn't been hired. She needs to take a harp and sing songs to receive customers again (in ancient times prostitutes were distinguished by their singing in the streets at night to attract the attention of a client).

Isaiah continues, “And it must occur at the end of seventy years that Jehovah will turn his attention to Tyre, and she must return to her hire and commit prostitution with all the kingdoms of the earth upon the surface of the ground. And her profit and her hire must become something holy to Jehovah. It will not be stored up, nor be laid up, because her hire will come to be for those dwelling before Jehovah, for eating to satisfaction and for elegant covering.” –verses 17-18

When the seventy year period ends, Tyre's “profit” and “hire” will become “something holy to Jehovah”. This cryptic remark was fulfilled when the temple was rebuilt in 537 BCE. Ezra 3:7 tells us, “they proceeded to give money to the cutters and to the craftsmen, and eatables and drink and oil to the Sidonians and the Tyrians, to bring cedar timbers from Lebanon to the sea at Joppa, according to the permission granted by Cyrus the king of Persia to them.”

So from these prophecies we can discern these points:1.Tyre will not be destroyed by the Chaldeans, but be forgotten for 70 years, in a business sense and will not be hired. Like an unwanted prostitute, she shall have no customers. (Isaiah 23:14)

3.When the 70 year period expires, Tyre shall restart her business, but give her profits to Jehovah's temple. (Isaiah 23:14; Ezra 3:7)

First of all, let's consider this in the secular chronology. According to historians, Tyre came under siege by Babylon shortly after the destruction of Jerusalem. This would place it in either late 587 or early 586 BCE. The 70 year period would end 70 years later in 517 or 516 BCE.

However, Isaiah told us what would happen when the 70 period ends, that Tyre's profit would become “something holy to Jehovah”. This occurred in 537 or 536 BCE in the secular chronology when Tyre provided Cedar timbers for the temple of Jehovah.

See the included charts below

This is a problem. That's only 50 years later when Tyre performed a holy work for Jehovah, not 70. Therefore, according to the secular chronology, the 70 year prophecy for Tyre failed – it was 20 years out —See charts one and two for the chronology.

Now, in contrast, let's apply the Bible's 607-based chronology. If we assume that Tyre was sieged by Babylon shortly after Jerusalem was destroyed, seeing as the last prophecy against her took place in that year (Ezekiel 26:1), and secular chronology agrees with this point, then Babylon attacked Tyre in late 607 or early 606 BCE.

Counting 70 years hence, we come to 537 BCE or 536 BCE – the exact year the Bible says Tyre supplied Cedar timbers for the holy temple of Jehovah! The 70 year prophecy is a success!

Only the 607-based Bible chronology allows this prophecy to be fulfilled. The chronology of secular historians, of the Churches, and of the apostates that promote it, all make the 70-year prophecy a joke. According to 587-based secular chronology, Tyre was supplying cedars and free of the Babylonian yoke just 50 years later, not 70! Who do you think is wrong? The secular chronology, or the Bible?•The 70 years for Tyre began after Jerusalem was destroyed.

•For 70 years Tyre was not hired in a commercial sense.

•The period ended when Tyre supplied Cedars for the Temple of Jehovah, exactly 70 years later.

•Only the 607-based chronology allows for this period. The secular chronology does not.

Only the 607-based chronology can account for the fulfillment of the prophecy for Tyre. Isaiah specifically says the period will end when Tyre's profit becomes holy to Jehovah. This is fulfilled when Tyre provides materials for Jehovah's holy temple in 537/536 BCE.

chart_tyre_bible.png (38.4 KiB) Viewed 5582 times

Attachments

Notice how the secular chronology causes the prophecy to fail by twenty years, or simply be render it's words meaningless.

You can say all you want about Tyre the following will be pretty much all I have to say, since it is not an argument. You have a lot more to tackle then concentrating in an inaccurate date even by Watchtower standard.

If the Babylonian supremacy is reckoned from 609 B.C.E., the year that marked the definite end of the Assyrian Empire, exactly seventy years elapsed up to the fall of Babylon in 539 B .C.E. This period may be counted as the “seventy years for Babylon.” (Jeremiah 29:10)58 As not all the nations previously ruled by Assyria were brought under the Babylonian yoke in that same year, the “seventy years” of servitude in reality came to mean a round number for individual nations (footnote a)

Footnote a) Interestingly, the Watch Tower writers, too, seem finally to have realized this. Commenting on the 70 years that Tyre would be forgotten according to Isaiah 23:15–17—a period they equate with the 70 years for Babylon—their recent commentary on Isaiah says: “True, the island-city of Tyre is not subject to Babylon for a full 70 years, since the Babylonian Empire falls in 539 B.C.E. Evidently, the 70 years represent the period of Babylonia’s greatest domination . . . Different nations come under that domination at different times. But at the end of 70 years, that domination will crumble.” (Isaiah’s Prophecy. Light for All Mankind, Vol 1, 2000, p. 253) These remarkable statements are more or less a reversal of earlier views.

I think that says it all. You cannot pick individual nations, since even the Watchtower acknowledge that the 70 years represent the period of Babylonia's greatest domination and different nations including Tyre came under at different times. That is what God's only channel said I hope you accept it. I feel weird I actually agree with them more then you that is odd.

You should probably take another look at this. The fact that the WT agrees that the 70 years applies to the dominion of Babylon at Isaiah 23, doesn't do anything to overturn the fact that Tyre being forgotten for seventy years still demands a longer period of time for the exile than what the traditional chronology allows. You focused on the wrong thing.

That's not the point at all, look at the post again. It doesn't matter if it was not the full 70 years. It would at least have to be close to 70. But with traditional chronology there is only about 49/50 years allotted.

The Bible says that Tyre would be forgotten for 70 years. You guys would have to change that to 50, not even close by a long shot.

You states that “Isaiah specifically says the period will end when Tyre’s profit becomes holy to Jehovah.” The implied causal relationship is false, because Isaiah actually said that “at the end … her profit must become something holy”. Though Isaiah indicates that the profit would be given after the period ended, the article claims that it marks the end of the period.\

You attempts to invalidate the secular Chronology by applying its literal interpretation of Tyre’s seventy years, even though the Watch Tower Society’s own interpretation of Tyre’s seventy years is consistent with secular history—specifically, that Tyre’s seventy years “represents the period of Babylonia’s greatest domination.” We all know that in that 70 years there were several Babylonian Kings. If you want to make one expression wooded, then you need to make the other one in the same way and start looking for a Babylonian King that ruled for 70 years.

Ezekiel 26:1–4, 7–9 is quoted, which indicates that Nebuchadnezzar would destroy Tyre’s walls because of its rejoicing over the destruction of Jerusalem. (Parts of verses 5, 6 and 8, which indicate that the people of Tyre’s dependant towns would be slain, are omitted as they conflict with the article’s interpretation of the ‘70 years’ for Tyre that follows.)

Isaiah 23:13–16 is then quoted, and it is claimed that the seventy years of being ‘forgotten’ are only in a ‘commercial sense’. Significantly, this interpretation conflicts with your claim that the seventy years of being ‘forgotten’ must have begun with the siege (which is not stated in the Bible).

Interestingly, verse 14 states that seventy years are “the same as the days of one king,” reminiscent of the fact that Jeremiah 25:11–12 speaks of nations serving the “king of Babylon” for seventy years. So correctly the Watchtower equates the 70 years to the Babylonian domination and not that Tyre would be literally desolated for 70 years. .

Isaiah 23:17–18, and claims that the verses were fulfilled in 537 BCE “when the temple is rebuilt”, despite the fact that in their (incorrect) chronology the Jews returned in that year, and the temple was rebuilt the following year (Ezra 3:1, 8). Although it would be possible for additional time to have passed between the end ‘seventy years for Tyre’ and Tyre’s subsequent provision of cedars for the temple, the article does not say that, as it would weaken the claim that Tyre’s seventy years could not have ended in 539 BCE.

Tyre was considered to be in servitude to Babylon for seventy years as one of “these nations”. The Bible does not say that Tyre was forgotten until helping to rebuild the temple, but that after the seventy years ended, attention would be turned to Tyre, and then its hire would “become something holy”.

Last edited by hperez on Fri May 16, 2014 1:12 pm, edited 6 times in total.

This appendix attempts to attack various arguments against the article’s own speculative interpretations of desolation of forty years for Egypt and seventy years for Tyre. Notably, the article’s interpretations for these periods are not supported even by Watch Tower Society literature.

Tactic 1: Contradict yourself (Egypt) A straw-man argument about Egypt being depopulated in Nebuchadnezzar’s 23rd year is raised and subsequently attacked.

Tactic 2: Use a logical fallacy (Tyre and Egypt) Another straw-man argument is raised, arguing against the fact that Tyre was not depopulated for a literal period of seventy years. In providing its argument, the article contradicts the Watch Tower Society’s interpretation regarding Tyre (Isaiah’s Prophecy—Light for all Mankind, Volume 1, Chapter 19, page 253).

The section then states (correctly) that one instance being figurative has no bearing on whether the other is figurative, but gives no basis for any claim that the period for Egypt is not figurative. Significantly, Watch Tower Society literature does not support the article’s interpretation of the forty years for Egypt, instead acknowledging that “the secular history of Egypt provides no positive evidence of the prophecy’s fulfillment” (The Watchtower, “Questions From Readers”, 1 October 1970, page 608).

Tactic 3: Make something up (Egypt) A straw-man argument is raised, refuting an alleged claim that Egypt might have repented in a similar case to that of Nineveh. Other possibilities for Babylon not having as complete victory over Egypt such as a figurative interpretation, or, in the words of the Watch Tower Society, “because of Babylon’s harsh treatment of God’s people,” (Insight, “Drunkenness”, volume 1, page 657) are ignored.

Tactic 4: Use another logical fallacy: Argument from ignorance (Egypt) This section claims that even though there is no evidence that Egypt was completely depopulated for forty years that it still must have happened. It relies on a reference to a Babylonian chronicle (BM 33041) which states that Nebuchadnezzar “went to Mitzraim (Egypt) to make war.” The article then presumes that there is “a good possibility” that the rest of the damaged chronicle supports its position.

Tactic 5: Yet Another logical fallacy: If I don’t know how it can be done, then it can’t be done (Egypt) This section raises a straw-man argument that Babylon could have exiled all of Egypt regardless of how difficult it might seem. No evidence is provided to indicate that it actually happened.

(The article’s own insistence that Nebuchadnezzar could not possibly have demanded tribute from Jerusalem while en route to Babylon before ascending to the throne employs the same logical fallacy.)

Tactic 6: My argument isn’t wrong, the evidence is wrong! (Tyre) Another straw-man argument, this section attacks the veracity of anyone who claims that Ezekiel was not a genuine prophet. However, whether Ezekiel prophesied in advance or the text was written later does not affect whether the interpretation is figurative. Though the alleged ‘tactic’ makes reference to “evidence”, no actual evidence is discussed.

Humorously (albeit unintended), the article makes reference to a “leading opposer of 607” as if there is some organised hierarchy among individuals who recognise JW doctrines to be in error.

Tactic 7: Make something up (again) (Egypt) This section attacks the possibility that Babylon did not have as complete a victory over Egypt as had been foretold because of its harsh treatment of the Jews. The article arrogantly questions why the prophecy would be made but not then fulfilled, querying the Bible’s silence on why the foretold outcome did not occur. However, no attempt is made to explain why the Bible does not state that it did occur.

Tactic 8: Contradict yourself (again) (Egypt) This section claims that any suggestion of forty years for Egypt being figurative is a contradiction, though no explanation is provided for what is actually contradicted. The article asserts that other periods of forty days or years in the Bible must be literal (without evidence), and concludes that Egypt’s forty years must also be literal.

While dogmatically asserting that such periods must be literal, no mention is made of the Watch Tower Society’s statement that “Tyre is not subject to Babylon for a full 70 years” (Isaiah’s Prophecy—Light for all Mankind, volume 1, “Jehovah Profanes the Pride of Tyre”, page 253).

You still did not answer how Tyre could be forgotten for 70 years when according to you it would have only been about 50. What justification could there be for that? I did not see in your explanation above a specific answer to that question.

Naturally, if Tyre begins business again, she is no longer forgotten, so at the end of the 70 years, as the prophecy states, she begins business again, some of it with Jehovah via the Jews, as the article showed.

I have answered the Tyre situation in accordance to the Bible and all the Secular documentation. Just because you don't want to view it the same does not make it wrong, specially when we have a tremendous amount of documentation to show the truth.