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Despite the actual name, I think we can both agree that there were 2 separate groups of Black people that we're talking about.

I will defer to your assessment, @Pioneer1 according to our DNA we traveled as tribes and like every other animal on the planet - we followed the water...

I also agree with Cynique - WHEN did we become two or maybe more distinct groups of blacks? Also, how and why did we change physically.

Also language, as @Cyniquepointed out, played a large part in our movement; as it does today. The antiquity of the Tuareg Women indicates they were a matrilineal tribe ( it may indicate some were the original Hebrews.) The men followed the women. Anthropologist report women and men lived separately - even after marriage. Surprisingly, &nbsp;Today, some reports indicate their lifestyle hasn't changed. Also the Berbers were nomads then and today so if some converted to Islam it would make sense how it would spread.

If I had a chance to go "home"...it would be fascinating to research these questions. Especially in the libraries in Addis Ababa (Aside: The Ethiopians and Egyptians are still at it lol)

What is so sad as it is empowering is that we are having these conversations and doing the best to piece our origin story together. It seems that the " fire-stick-inventing-conquerors" know our origin and history - yet co-opted and white-washed for themselves even though they know it originated with the first group of modern humans .

Or did it?

Maybe this has been one long extraterrestrial battle for superiority that we brought to Earth like in the marvel comics ....

f I had a chance to go "home"...it would be fascinating to research these questions. Especially in the libraries in Addis Ababa (Aside: The Ethiopians and Egyptians are still at it lol)

Speaking of 'nomads' i've had the occasional privilege of interacting with a group called the 'Bedouins' most identify as Arab, a smaller group identify as African, say they're Arab for the sake of Isreali State privileges. Neither group, Christian/Muslim, completely recognize all traditional Arab customs.

Interestingly, those who identify as Arab Bedouins, recognize a form of 'structural functionalism' where the rule of males dominates in gender roles. As a firm believer in conflict theory, I find this disturbing because males (unfairly) benefit economically from the woman's inferior position in the family and workplace. This is true of most Arab Christian and Muslim Bedouins as well as non-Bedouins Arabs.

Those who identify as African/Arab Bedouins recognize matrilineal decent system where even inheritance is left to the women fo the family. None of these Bedouins are Christians, all Muslims. Most interesting people, indeed, those Bedouins that recognize a matrilineal descent system is the reason the State of Israel left annexing alone in the Jericho/Israeli desert area where the Bedouins live. Thanks to the customs of Arab Christians and Muslim Bedouins, The State of Israel is now annexing most lands of all the nomad people; their ancestral descent is traced through paternal lines, patrilineage or patriliny instead of matrilineal.

Needless to say, I was shocked to learn this right from the source. Unfortunately, I never got to speak directly with the females because I'm a male, but through my Arab female language tutor who travels around with me I've conversed for hours on end with the women who all harbor complaints of American females, and (probably) the same as women the world over; that all women experience oppression the same way. Kind of like Betty Friedan, the feminine mystique who championed women's rights to work in 1960's, who work totally ignored the thousands of Black women.

@Kalexander2, I've read, (Pioneer- wait for it, wait for it 😛Peter Drucker's "managing oneself" and he says the best way to learn something is to teach it. I'm learning so thank you.

Speaking of which, @Pioneer1 and @Cynique offered answers to the question I barely formulated. From their insight, I believe If we can trace the earliest use of language AND religion practiced by a group we can determine their origin and migration of a people.

I'm sure there are quite of few cultural anthropologists who know this but they've probably put their findings in a book - and the media gatekeepers have hidden it.

14 hours ago, Kalexander2 said:

Betty Friedan, the feminine mystique who championed women's rights to work in 1960's, who work totally ignored the thousands of Black women.

.
Friedan was speaking for and to women who were sheltered at the time and looking for a way to gain their independence.

Specifically, those who, culturally speaking, hadn't found their way into the workforce. The majority of black women in America had been in the workforce since slavery - there was no need for us to find our way into the labor force - most of us were already there. The message wasn't for black women. One thing, I've learned as a journalist and marketer is "know your audience." While the West operates under the system of patriarchy - our struggles are similar but not the same.

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However, in starting in America (first), looking at language and religious patterns, don't we run the risk of qualitative bias in the collection of data; America is already a melting-pot of mixed blood ethnic groups and cultures; is where we ended up a done deal?

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Actually, I should have written Americas and since the native americans (mexico, canada and u.s.) are said to be from south asia , it would make sense to look at the information already in studies to see the migration patterns between Asia and Africa

also if early humans were mostly matrilineal tribes then it stands to reason why today we trace migration patterns through the mtDNA. The mitochondrial DNA doesn't mutate that often. Allegedly my mtDNA is found in a haplogroup that is 80,000-104,000 years old traced back to east africa and ethiopians. So if there was a way to find the "african" origin of Asians (there is by the way - they came from my clade) then we can begin with the women in those groups to the first women in the new haplogroup... we could learn their language and religion -and then find out where they separated...

So far, the mtDNA tells us that my foremother remained in east africa but my "daughters" crossed over into yemen to begin a new group (euroasians)... Still that doesn't give us the what their early community looked like - how they met up with the neanderthals et al ... because what anthropologist have reveal thus far, is those of us who remained in Africa didn't meet or mate with neanderthals but those who left out of Africa did...

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Wow! this thread is interesting. The photos you posted are very interesting.

You know, I have worked in a genetics lab and my major is in Biology with emphasis in Secondary education. And after I've studed about the mtDNA and the Y Haplo group, it seems to me the scientist are not revealing everything. Actually, I think it is the other way around, but I need to look at my notes regarding the mtDNA. That is the one that does 'mutate'. But the term for the Y-Dna haplogroup is that it is more stable and it does not RECOMBINE like the mtDNA and this is why scientiest know the origins of mankind, which they say is much more recent than the Mitochondrial Eve. Alll Y-DNA has a basal MARK that shows their origin is in Africa and it is called 'basal a'. All males have this 'basal a' mark and it does not recombine.

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I see. So, do you think it is possible a 'trace' through the Southeast Asia desert could unearth patterns and language of Black folk?

The original Chinese were BLACK.

All through out South East Asia and into the Phillipines and even up in Japan and Korea if you go into the rural forest areas small Black people called by different names STILL exist in large numbers.

Just like these small Black people were the original inhabitants of Europe, they were the original inhabitants of THAT land as well.

Yes, I'm starting to get, really, good at it. I almost know all the right buttons to push.

All the right "buttons to push" huh???
As I said before, the definition of a troll is one who likes antagonizing people and causing trouble.....lol.

Basically what you're saying.....Krazy.... is that you're getting good at TROLLING people.

The higher the monkey climbs...the more he shows his tail, lol.

Mel

I also agree with Cynique - WHEN did we become two or maybe more distinct groups of blacks? Also, how and why did we change physically.

Well I know there's atleast THREE distinct groups of what we would call "Black" people on this planet.

One group is the African type who TYPICALLY (but not always) have dark skin, kinky hair, thick lips, and broad noses.
Obviously you have the San people of southern Africa with their light brown skin and the Amharic and Somali peoples of eastern Africa with their wavy and straight hair and thin lips/noses.....but the vast majority of NATIVE Africans are the Blacks I described above.

But then you also have the Blacks of Asia.
Herodotus when writing his Histories called them the "Ethiopians of Asia" and claimed that they were so Black that even their semen was black....lol.

But these were the Dravidians of Southern India. Most of whom are dark skinned, with straight hair and mostly thin lips/noses.

Then you have the Polynesians and Aboriginees of Australia who are an entirely different group all together in my opinion and they were the ones populating much of Southeast Asia and the Japanese island as well as Australia, Indonesia, ect..

I don't have solid proof of it but I believe that either:

1. The African and Polynesian/Australian Blacks CAME FROM the Indian Blacks or
2. All Black races shared a common ancestral lineage that resided in the Middle East before they branched off into different directions.

Perhaps there different features are owed to different "families" who may have migrated in different directions and keep reproducing within the same genetic stock.

The antiquity of the Tuareg Women indicates they were a matrilineal tribe ( it may indicate some were the original Hebrews.) The men followed the women. Anthropologist report women and men lived separately - even after marriage. Surprisingly, &nbsp;Today, some reports indicate their lifestyle hasn't changed. Also the Berbers were nomads then and today so if some converted to Islam it would make sense how it would spread.

Oh you're breaking it DOWN today huh....lol.

Not only the Taureg but Ive also heard the Ibo (or Igbo) people of Nigeria were related to the original Hebrews who came out of Egypt/Kemet as well.

We KNOW the Dogon of Mali are ancient Egyptians and received much of their science while still there.

But speaking of the Taureg and matriarchies.......

The myth of the Amazon women actually came from a NORTH AFRICAN people called the "Amazigh" people who still exist today.
The Greeks called them "berbers" which meant barbarian but they call themselves "Amazigh" and practice a very matriarchal type culture where the women were warriors.
Herodotus I believe again speaks of the women of the Amazigh cutting off one of their breasts at young ages so that they could be better fighters with the bow and arrow.

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No wonder humans made up the story about Adam and Eve. All of this stuff is so involved and speculative, it boggles the mind. And it's almost like the more we find out, the less we know, because discovery is ongoing. ( This is my excuse for being too lazy to delve into research.) My Daddy told me i had an Africa great, great grandmother, born in slavery in North Carolina, and his mother was a full blooded Osage Indian born in Kansas My mother's father was half-white and blue-eyed, born of a slave owner and a slave in Tennessee. The only thing unique about this is that i have a Hispanic first name. (Consuelo)

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Actually, I should have written Americas and since the native americans (mexico, canada and u.s.) are said to be from south asia , it would make sense to look at the information already in studies to see the migration patterns between Asia and Africa

Okay, I think I understand the approach you suggest - tracing ancient Black language and religion through our ancient migration patterns – via the Americas beyond divide per the geological continental shift (over there); which may be unreliable, “media gatekeepers [may] have hidden it.”Again I wary now, even more, faced with both qualitative and qualitative bias. Your thoughts, please!

6 hours ago, Mel Hopkins said:

also if early humans were mostly matrilineal tribes then it stands to reason why today we trace migration patterns through the mtDNA. The mitochondrial DNA doesn't mutate that often. Allegedly my mtDNA is found in a haplogroup

2

Unsure whether early tribes were mostly matrilineal.From what I gather from interaction with African Arab/Muslim Bedouin women, those are some tough old girls too, several ancient languages are passed down to the children via oral tradition.One language, I’m told consist of a kind of grunt/whistle sound (strange).And there is a lost language of such being resurrected my Alaska’s Athabaskan natives.

2 hours ago, Pioneer1 said:

The original Chinese were BLACK.

All through out South East Asia and into the Phillipines and even up in Japan and Korea if you go into the rural forest areas small Black people called by different names STILL exist in large numbers.

Possible but non-definitive because of China's lineage being traced to India (Indian) culture. Don't about DNA argument.

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Well I know there's atleast THREE distinct groups of what we would call "Black" people on this planet.

﻿

One group is the African type who TYPICALLY (but not always) have dark skin, kinky hair﻿, thick lips, and broad noses.
Obviously you have the San people of southern Africa with their light brown skin and the Amharic and Somali peoples of eastern Africa with their wavy and straight hair and thin lips/noses.....but the vast majority of NATIVE Africans are the Blacks I described above.﻿﻿

I could eat a bowl of alphabet soup and poop out a more coherent statement than whatever you just said.

2 hours ago, Pioneer1 said:

As I said before, the definition of a troll is one who likes antagonizing people and causing trouble.....lol.

Basically what you're saying.....Krazy.... is that you're getting good at TROLLING people.

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Perhaps if YOUR mother felt the same way about YOU.....you would have grown up in HER custody instead of in STATE custody.

Great comeback!!!!!!!!!!!! What else you got in your crayon box?

You know, Pioneer1 pony, we were having an intelligent discussion here, and here you come trying to match wits. In fact, I was hoping for a battle of wits but it would be wrong to attack you who’s totally unarmed. But it's fun!

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As I said before, the definition of a troll is one who likes antagonizing people and causing trouble.....lol.

Basically what you're saying.....Krazy.... is that you're getting good at TROLLING people.

@Pioneer1at any given time, your "definition" of a troll applies to everyone on this site including me, as well as you when you trade antagonizing insults with Kalexander. "Troll" is not a relative designation on this board because posters here disagree as much as they agree with each other and things can get intense. So be it.

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Yes, sister Cynique, very antagonizing to the p{h}ony. Shame on me for enjoying it so much! I've gotten to the point where I actually wait for him to start-up again, and again he comes back for more. So please excuse me if I elect to accommodate Pioneer1 p(h)ony.

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I think you need some new hostile/insult efforts, so far you're just too funny! Hey, here's a thought, go ask the trollop, I'm sure she can do better. OR, please, keep typing. I only yawn when I’m super fascinated.

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Actually, I think it is the other way around, but I need to look at my notes regarding the mtDNA. That is the one that does 'mutate'. But the term for the Y-Dna haplogroup is that it is more stable and it does not RECOMBINE like the mtDNA and this is why scientiest know the origins of mankind, which they say is much more recent than the Mitochondrial Eve. Alll Y-DNA has a basal MARK that shows their origin is in Africa and it is called 'basal a'. All males have this 'basal a' mark and it does not recombine.

As it relates to anthopology, the mtDNA mutates almost every 8000 years . The mutation here refers to assigning mtDNA haplotypes into halplogroups which is represented here in this phylotree ( Acomprehensive phylogenetic tree of worldwide human mitochondrial DNA variation, currently comprising over 5,400 nodes (haplogroups) with their defining mutations.)

The Mitochondria are small membrane-bound structures contained in the cell's cytoplasm. It is responsible for generating energy needed for cell function. The mitochondria contains its own DNA and protein-synthesizing machinery. It reproduces by splitting in two to make a second copy of the DNA . https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/how-do-researchers-trace/

And yes, mutation is limited for the Y-chromosome because its the X that has all the genetic information to combine with the Y to form a viable human.

Recent studies, previously stated the Y chromosome was on its way to extinction because it only recombines to provide genetic information for male reproductive organs - and had emptied itself of other genetic material. According the article (link) it has found a way to stabilize itself. https://evolution.berkeley.edu/evolibrary/news/140513_ychromosome

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Alll Y-DNA has a basal MARK that shows their origin is in Africa and it is called 'basal a'. All males have this 'basal a' mark and it does not recombine.

@Chevdove also when I was searching for my source documents - I saw the 2013 article of the man with Y-DNA that branched off from the modern humans - THE PLOT THICKENS! I started reading about mitochondrial eve and human migration back in 2005 - I follow up every so often because I find it fascinating. BUT I missed the development of the Albert Perry's Y-DNA dating back 340000 years! I look forward reading more research on this new development. Thank you for the update!

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As it relates to anthopology, the mtDNA mutates almost every 8000 years . The mutation here refers to assigning mtDNA haplotypes into halplogroups which is represented here in this phylotree ( Acomprehensive phylogenetic tree of worldwide human mitochondrial DNA variation, currently comprising over 5,400 nodes (haplogroups) with their defining mutations.)

The Mitochondria are small membrane-bound structures contained in the cell's cytoplasm. It is responsible for generating energy needed for cell function. The mitochondria contains its own DNA and protein-synthesizing machinery. It reproduces by splitting in two to make a second copy of the DNA . https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/how-do-researchers-trace/

And yes, mutation is limited to the Y- because its the X that has all the genetic information to combine with the Y to form a viable human. Recent studies, previously stated the Y chromosome was on its way to extinction because it only recombines to provide genetic information for male reproductive organs - and had emptied itself of other genetic material. According the article (link) it has found a way to stabilize itself. https://evolution.berkeley.edu/evolibrary/news/140513_ychromosome

But as you know the origin of mankind was the X chromosome. According to studies, and the aforementioned article) there was no Y chromosome until about 180 million years ago.

Yes! Thank you for the correction. I once, many moons ago a teacher and I just could not remember the correct terms. You're right, the mitochondria is on the outside of the nucleus and the Y-DNA HAPLOGROUP is one strand of the Genome. I need to look over my notes, but I have come to realize the subject is extensive.

Look!--I HOPE NOT!--I hope the Y chromosome doesn't become extinct! LOL! I don't want to live in a world without men! LOL.

But I would like to share some of my notes about this topic, only, I need to find my notes.

The RECOMBINATION I mention, I think there might be another term I need to use to explain what I found.
.

So now, I'm thinking, ... What was I thinking!? I have to refresh myself, because my thesis is based on a good comparison and contrast between the mtDNA and

the Y-DNA HAPLOGROUP that has been published today. YOu see, I have a big problem with what I have been reading. I believe that, in the Science Scholarly

community, there is a big concerted effort to conceal some of their findings and as a result, some of what they report is misleading to say the least, but I'm still

researching and have not made a conclusion on this thought for sure. To take my opinions further, So at this stage, I am gathering info, and forming some questions about their reports. Ultimately and based on what I see so far, I believe that this big government is hiding information based on a racial reasoning. That is what I believe. So let me post some of their statements, a little, for now and pose some questions I have about this research:

In general, traits that exist on the Y chromosome are Y-linked because they only occur on that

[1] So, this was what i vaguely remembered in my notes, but I was not sure how to phrase it. The mtDNA is very stable, so stable that it does not RECOMBINE in the process of reproduction for a very, very long time. And the same for the Y-DNA, but I feel that the scholars don't make it clear the other aspect in the term they use; RECOMBINATION.

When it comes to RECOMBINING with the pairing and the Y-DNA chromosome strand during reproduction, the X-chromosome offers a lot of variation as opposed to the Y-DNA.

The Y-DNA only offers a small portion on the tip of the Y-chromosome sex gene, in the psuedo[?] region. For this reason, the human race is so varied.

Then there is the inheritance that comes from the AUTOSOMAL CHROMOSOMES too.

But, in my observation, the scientific community is very vague about the Y-DNA Sex chromosome because they don't want to shed light on the African male origin of all mankind living today.

I have found that the Haplogroups that they list today, is very, very vague. And they change groups, and sub-clades, to a point, where am questioning as to why?

The Y-DNA is very stable. And the process that determins the BASAL aspect is stable, so why do they not make this clear?

[2] [a] At one point they say, the basal portion was listed by a certain description [can't remember off hand];

then they assigned it to be BASAL A and said it was a great portion of African men

[c] then they assigned the E1b groups to much of African men

[c] then they assiged the BT group and changed their story about that

[d] now they say they have found a new group A00 in a man in america named Albert and sometimes they say that he was a slave...

And the process in determining the mutation MARKS for these grups leads to subclades and such, but

I have found one of many vague points, they have left out as well as the contradictions about the basal A, and E1b groups;

they don't usually clarify that the HAPLOGROUP F is the beginning BRANCH for all of the reast of the HAPLOGROUPS!!! --

G,H,I,J,K,L,... and then the other branches off of thse groups. They don't share this much. And, this is some of the reason why I believe they are not publishing

the whole truth about the Y-DNA. Ultimately, I believe this is because they in no way want to make any correlation to the BIBLICAL ADAM and THE GREAT WORLD FLOOD which would be A BOTTLENECK affect.

[3] and then there is another major issue that also comes into play in these findings... THE NEANDERTHAL Y-DNA of which to date, scientist don't really shout it out, but no y-dna has been found yet. Their methods of determining the HAPLOGROUPS for the earlier hominids is based on comparison and contrast using the PRIMATES such as the Gorilla and chimpanzee. And they use the mtDNA as well to determinen gene patterns to reports their findings on the male presence of the NEANDERTHALS.

They know they were here and that they were males, in part!--because of reproduction and other proof.

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@Pioneer1 There is more genetic diversity today in African than there is anywhere else on Earth. Genetically, it is more likely that you are more closely related to the people you call white than you would be to people in Africa who share your complexion.

Anyone who believes Africans are "less evolved" than the people who left Africa is simply ignorant of the most basic concepts of genetics.

There is zero evidence that anyone is Africa is descended from people who came from Asia.

------------------

The idea that there is a Mitochondrial Eve and Y-Chromosomal Adam is just remarkable to me -- single individuals that we are all related to. Now these folks wree not arried to each other and they were not the only ones on Earth, but we still treat each other like Cain and Abel.

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But, in my observation, the scientific community is very vague about the Y-DNA Sex chromosome because they don't want to shed light on the African male origin of all mankind living today.

Anthropologists , statisticians and everybody else are making it tough for biologists to get around it -because they reference the original Y-DNA in these published scientific research articles. I have noticed, however, more of a focus on what happened once "we modern humans" left out of Africa...

@Troy@Pioneer1
People are NOT commodities. We are members of a networked community. So, marriage is not a step-up but rather a strategic partnership based on goals.

Since marriage is also government-sanctioned some people marry to expand their territories. In this case, Meghan Markle put herself on a path to be a major player on the world stage. By the time, Kensington Palace announced Meghan Markle and Prince Harry's engagement - she had already had several international speaking engagements (one at the United Nations) and was a world ambassador for World Vision Canada

By the time she met Henry Mountbatten-Windsor, Markle was already a multi-millionaire. In addition to her starring role on "Suits" she was a successful entrepreneur; she'd launched a lifestyle website called The Tig named best website by Elle and InStyle Magazines. She also had several endorsement deals including Ralph Lauren and Reitmans department store . At 36, maybe she decided it was time to pursue her first vocation in diplomacy but full time.

Prince Harry seemed to clearly understand her goals and indicated it worked for him.

"...I know that the fact that she'll be really unbelievably good at the job part of it as well is almost is a huge relief to me because she'll be able to deal with everything else that comes with it. But, no, we're a fantastic team. We know we are. And, we hope to over time try and have as much impact for all the things that we care about as much as possible."

Although, Hollywood may paint women as starry-eyed romanticist; it would be foolish for anyone to believe that's the truth. Those who are surprised by the strategy and tactics women employ in achieving their goals aren't paying attention.

Markle marrying Prince Harry is a means to an end. It's also a great partnership because now Markle can really attend to world affairs. In fact, it's part of her job description as Duchess of Sussex.

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Although, Hollywood may paint women as starry-eyed romanticist; it would be foolish for anyone to believe that's the truth. Those who are surprised by the strategy and tactics women employ in achieving their goals aren't paying attention

Well said! Her background is not indicative of a woman without her own agenda or, someone's token plaything or tool. I look forward to paying close attention to her career and marriage!