On this week’s episode, we explore the Not All Like That Christians Project. Endorsed by Dan Savage in this video, the project was started to give Christians the opportunity to come out of the closet and publicly state their support for LGBT rights. Our friend Eric Knight joins us for a conversation that includes the tricky question: why is the NALT project a good thing and #notallmen a bad thing? Eric also asks us five questions and we spend a lot of time talking about vegetables.

16 Responses to Episode 128 – NALT

The difference, as I see it, is that the NALT types are not trying to silence anyone — in fact, they’re agreeing that those types of religious folks make all the others look bad. It’s a supportive meme. The NAM people were absolutely trying to silence women by counterattacking and denying that women’s perspective (“any unknown man COULD be dangerous, so we always have to be careful”) was valid. The men who were supporting women, from what I saw, weren’t using the NAM tag because it was already so poisoned by the closed-minded and the misogynists.

I think the main difference is that with Not All Men, You have 2 clear sides of the argument, basically men and women. This doesn’t go to say that all men or all women agree with one side or the other, but it’s two separate sides that cannot be inclusive.

With NALT, there are people in the GLBT community that can also be religious. Basically, NALT can be inclusive because people can use it to become part of a community that has some prominence in a lot of people’s lives.

With the Black Lives Matter versus All Lives Matter, it seems similar to the Not All Men based on the fact that no matter what they say, people that aren’t black aren’t a member of that community. As people try to loop themselves into that ocmmunity with the All Lives Matter tag, it seems like they are trying to force their way into a community based on shared experiences that they can’t be a part of.

In my eyes, the major difference is that one is essentially recruiting, which has always been something that I hate about religion. NALT is being inclusive and supportive, and I think that is possible because religion is a choice.

You commented that you had an ulcer in high school and it was caused by the stress of being an overachiever. I thought it was important to let you know it was not your fault, it was likely caused by a bacteria.

Barry Marshall is an Australian scientist/badass and proved that the bacterium Helicobacter pylori (H. pylori) is the cause of most peptic ulcers. He did this not by just studying it and looking but by getting checked for ulcers, then taking a swig of the bacteria, then getting checked again. Bam! Ulcer! Thus proving that stress was not the primary cause but an easily treatable bacteria.

Love the show.

Also,

1) 2001 A Space Oddessey – Totally thought it would be awesome, I love the idea of an AI gone wrong, watched it and quite literally fell asleep. I have never made it through the movie, but I sometimes use it if I get a bit of insomnia.

2) Judge Claude Frollo from The Hunchback of Notre Dame (1996) – The epitome of religious shame manifested in violence. He hates himself for the feelings he has, so he transfers that hate on to Esmeralda and generally acts like a massive dick.

3) Baking – I used to actually be a baker, moved to IT, and now I really miss making bread. I used to do it on weekends etc and loved it, but now I am on a low carb diet and bread is on the naughty list.

4) Zucchini – I make a zucchini ala panna, basically a cream/butter sauce with fried zucchini instead of pasta or gnochi.

I think a lot of the hate Riley gets is unfair, but I understand it. He’s not a great character, but he’s not all bad.

1: It’s hard for me to say, because most of the things that are beloved by the nerd community are things I haven’t seen enough of to make an informed judgment (Battlestar, Dr. Who), or things I really enjoyed, myself (Buffy, Avengers). I think Army of Darkness is probably the thing that people love most that I think is just alright.
2: Kind of silly, but Q. You just knew every time he showed up, he was going to drive everyone up the wall.
3: I have not played a tabletop RPG in over 10 years, and I sorely miss it.
4: Eggplant is my favorite vegetable, but my favorite preparation is a mix of veggies (usually tomato, onion, artichoke hearts, fresh garlic, zucchini, eggplant, ripe olives, spinach, and whatever else looks good at the market) all combined in a slow cooker with balsamic vinegar and olive oil, served over pasta or as a bruschetta topping.
5: My absolute favorite skeptical piece of pop culture is Tim Minchin’s “Storm”.

I think the main difference between NALT and Not All Men is one hit on at one point in the podcast: context and marketing. I don’t think it’s any more inherent than that.

I also wanted to point out that being a vegetable and “technically a fruit” (meaning botanically) are not mutually exclusive. It’s because “vegetable” is not a botanical term, just a culinary one, while “fruit” is ambiguous between both.

Otherwise we’d have to exclude many other plants from the array of vegetables, including squash, bell and chilli peppers, eggplant, green beans, and cucumbers.

On the other hand, there’s nothing wrong with the culinary definition of “fruit”, which traditionally excludes those things because of patterns of usage. Culinary fruits are usually the sweeter ones, although lemons and limes usually get in their two, I guess because of patterns and usage and that they are often sweetened.

1) I never watched ET until much later in life so it never seemed to resonate with me as it did with others who saw it as kids.
2) TNG era Borg. They are just so relentless and Picard couldn’t negotiate his way out of trouble.
3) I used to do cross-stitch back in school. I don’t really miss it but it was a good time in my life.
4) As a vegetarian, eggplant is my favourite vegetable but my fave preparation is caramelised red onions made with just oil and a generous slug of red wine vinegar. I put in in everything from pizza to salads.
5) Yet another Tim Minchin piece – The Good Book . The Good Book must be good because it tells us so!

The difference between #notallmen and NALT is context. #notallmen was used to tag political commentary on men telling WOMEN that their political commentary on rape and harassment was somehow inaccurate or invalid because not all men rape or sexually harass. NALT is a movement in which Christians tell OTHER CHRISTIANS than anti-gay bigotry is not inherently Christian. It has nothing to do with Christians telling LGBT folk that not all Christians are bigots (which would be the equivalent to #notallmen) except that it was inspired by one too many Christians doing exactly that to Dan Savage.

2. The most overrated geek movie, to my mind, is Princess Bride. and I have an enjoyable irrational fear of Chuck E. Cheese.

3. If you are still feeling like it wasn’t problematic for white folk to start posting #alllivesmatter, read some of the many insightful tweets on the topic from Black activists in the #blacklivesmatter #ferguson movement. I found that when I listened to what Black Twitter had to say on the topic, I got it.

I really don’t agree that it’s the responsibility of those not doing a bad act to publicly differentiate themselves from others who do bad acts, who have something in common with the first group. That goes for Christians, athesists, and Muslims, and others. I think it’s the responsibility of those who have a problem with the acts not to generalize. If a Christian preacher says something homophobic, or even if they say that Christianity supports what they say, no one is entitled to say “that guy speaks for all Christians” without doing their research first. Another Christian who is “not like that” has no responsibility to specifically say they’re not with the preacher unless they’re part of the same specific Christian organization.

Granted it’s *nice* for those Christians who are “not like that” to speak out and call out Christians who are, but it’s not their responsibility.

The difference (much as Molly stated in her thought above) is who is being communicated to. In the Not All Like That, it is Christians talking to other Christians to say “You don’t speak for me.” (especially since frequently fundementalists and evangelicals DO state that how they feel is how ‘Christians’ feel).
In #notallmen, it was men derailing feminist conversations and trying to lower the volume. As noted by a number of bloggers, why spend their time and energy defending themselves (when they haven’t been accused at all) instead of working to change the issue. I mean, what’s actually more powerful, going on a forum where women are talking about rape on campuses to squeal “BUT NOT ALL MEN RAPE” (something that everyone there already knows and agrees with, as only the most radical of radfems believes that all men are rapists) or going to forums where victims are blamed and date rape is encouraged (there are plenty of them, especially in the PUA community) and saying “Not all men agree with you, what you are doing is wrong.”

1. Hunger games movies/books- I think both the movies and books were alright. However, the fan base annoys me more than any other and has kind of left a bad taste in my mouth. And when I do get around to watching the movies I’m not impressed much.

2. Caligula. Read “I, Claudius” and you will never feel hatred as deep as you will when reading about this but job. However, since everyone knows historically that he was a monster the hatred is part of what makes the story awesome, but it is the only time I’ve legitimately wanted to chuck a book across the room in frustration. I still feel that hatred and I read the book back in 2005. Also, Nick, you are so right with Cersei but I really like her. I have Ro appreciate her evil…

3. I used to play volleyball. I even made the only women’s team at the school when I studied abroad in Scotland, and was a starter most of the season.

4. I am an extremely picky eater, but I love carrots. Cooked they are good. Raw they are good. In soup. Dipped in ranch. Dipped in French dressing too! But my favorite is when they are in my grandma’s matzoh ball soup.

5. Tim Minchin is wonderful! I love his bit on Americans and Evolution.

One difference between NAM and NALT that I’m surprised no one picked up on here inclusivity. The Not All Men group was created as a mutex set with women; on the other hand NALT is specifically an inclusive group. In other words an ass saying “not all men” knows that neither he nor anyone in the movement can be raped. A NALTer though knows that homophobia will hurt them or their brothers in Christ.

also
1. The Shinning. It’s a legitimately bad movie. It”s chock full o’ misogyny and Nicholson is the worst actor ever. At least Bruce Campbell can play Good Ash and Evil Ash.

2. Iago. The best, most chilling villain in Shakespeare.

3. I haven’t done any art photography in the last 6 years or so, since leaving school.

4. Grilled Tomatoes with Provolone, an unbeatable meal

5. I would have to say Life Of Brian. It mocks the foilbes of religion without being douche fucking. Also so much dick for a movie I watched at church camp.