Keep all discussion regarding Payback and any matches, until/unless they're officially announced as part of the card, here. Spam rules will also be enforced.

__________________"What Do I Know Of Cultured Ways, The Gilt, The Craft And The Lie?
I, Who Was Born In A Naked Land And Bred In The Open Sky.
The Subtle Tongue, The Sophist Guile, They Fail When The Broadswords Sing.
Rush In And Die Dogs - I Was A Man Before I Was King."

So Roman's going to face Braun Strowman again, judging from the Strowman-Lesnar segment from Raw?

Pointless, considering how be beat him clean at Fastlane, and they had a match on Raw twice, before and after Fastlane.

It doesn't seem like the Universal Title will be defended at Payback, since they won't rush Lesnar vs Reigns, or Lesnar versus Rollins yet, and it doesn't make sense that Lesnar will defend against Strowman so soon.

It does seem like either of Finn Balor or Seth Rollins is heading to SD Live following the "Shakeup".

I don't see Joe heading to SD, as he just debuted.

One thing's for certain, Roman Reigns will be on RAW.

The possibilities don't feel "endless" after all, as there are a limited number of performers, and the seeds for most feuds seem to have been planted or have been well beyond germinated. (Orton-Wyatt from SD, Roman-Lesnar, Strowman-Lesnar).

Only and Only Finn Balor and AJ Styles seem to be free of any feuds and entanglements and thus potential superstars to be traded.

Reigns and Strowman is NOT what I want to see again. They didn't do it correctly the first time in my opinion. Strowman should have won at Fastlane with interference from the Undertaker, but whatever I guess. I don't really understand the logic for this match.

I think Kevin Owens and Chris Jericho should have a stipulation of sorts added to their match. I understand Extreme Rules will be the following PPV, but this needs a bit more intensity I think. Even if it is just a no disqualification match to allow for the odd chair or something.

Having seen that Samoa Joe didn't interfere in the Rollins/Triple H match at WrestleMania, I'm not so sure Joe and Rollins is a guarantee either. But then again, what else would they do? Also, Bálor doesn't seem to have anything to do yet. Could it be a tag team match between Bálor and Rollins vs. Joe and Triple H? Doubtful.

Neville and Austin Aries will hopefully get a rematch too. It was one of the best matches at WrestleMania.

Why do they need to redo Reigns vs Strowman? Reigns can't lose after beating The Undertaker, not until he wins the Universal Championship from Lesnar. We know that won't happen anytime soon. Lesnar needs contenders until then. Lesnar vs Strowman would have been a great first title defense for Brock.

So why are they going for Strowman vs Reigns again? Reigns shouldn't lose and Braun can't challenge Brock after a loss against Reigns. So, what the heck?

The card will surely change after the scheduled Superstar Shake-up but until now, it looks the aforementioned.

Don't know why Strowman is going to get Reigns again. He shouldn't have lost earlier and it looks like it'll lead to another loss for him. Kevin Owens will and should retain. Nia Jax could win. Hardyz will retain for sure.

Tonight Raw held its Payback 2017 event, the first PPV show since Wrestlemania. I didn't have particularly high expectations going in though some of the matches looked like they would be good. That and I was intrigued to find out what the House Of Horrors match would be.

Pre-Show: Anderson and Gallows VS Enzo Amore & Big Cass
Who cares? I like Enzo and Cass, but there's no surprise why this was on the pre-show.

Chris Jericho VS Kevin Owens [United States Championship]
Then we had the first dual-branded (sort of) match of the night. Which was also the first match on the main card. Decent enough starter although Jericho winning was a headscratcher. I hope it means Owens goes on to bigger and better things further up the card. If Jericho loses it right back to Owens on tuesday it would make this win meaningless.

Austin Aries VS Neville [Cruiserweight Championship]
It was alright. I preferred their Wrestlemania match. The ending did not feel like a definitive way to end the feud. Some type of gimmick match or a No Disqualification match stipulation should be placed on the next match, which should then end the feud.

Hardys VS Sheamus & Cesaro [Raw Tag Team Championship]
Another ok match, glad the Hardy's retained however there was nothing all that great about it or anything that really stuck out other than Jeff losing a tooth during a spot.

Alexa Bliss VS Bayley [Raw Women's Championship]
Some mixed feelings here. On one hand I'm extremely happy for Alexa that she made history tonight becoming the first woman to have held both the Raw and Smackdown Women's Championships. On the other hand this match appeared to have been cut short, likely due to that spot where Bayley hit the post headfirst. Seemed like it should have been longer overall. Still liked it. Alexa winning was the right call.

Bray Wyatt VS Randy Orton [House Of Horrors Match - House Portion]
So.... we finally got to see just what the heck this was. The footage looked like something out of a horror film which was kinda cool at first. Most of us at my PPV party were expecting to see the Broken Hardy's show up and have this be a WWE version of the Final Deletion stuff. It was a let-down. What that being said.... It could have been so much worse. Clearly filmed ahead of time since I doubt it would have been dark yet in Pacific Time. Then the in-ring portion came later on after Joe VS Rollins. No one knew what to expect and that helped this portion of the match.

Seth Rollins VS Samoa Joe
Probably the best match of the night from an in-ring standpoint. Glad Seth won, he definitely needed it more.

Bray Wyatt VS Randy Orton [House Of Horrors Match - In-Ring Portion]
This was the in-ring part of the House Of Horrors match and it was dumb. The interference by Jinder shouldn't have happened. This is supposed to be a Raw show. Why are Smackdown people showing up other than Randy or Owens? They should have gone into Extreme Rules in this portion of the match, that could have salvaged it. I was disappointed.

Braun Strowman VS Roman Reigns
So with Brock holding the title hostage this incredibly boring match main evented. By this point none of us at my PPV party cared anymore. Strowman winning may have been the right call since he benefits more from a win than Reigns who we all know will get pushed to defeat Lesnar anyway. The stuff at the end with Strowman knocking the door off of the hinges of the ambulance was funny, as were the steel chairs spots in the ring.

Overall Thoughts
What a letdown. Not just the "House Of Horrors". I am talking about the majority of this show. Nothing on it was truly horrible.... Yet at the same time there was nothing that I would recommend anyone go out of there way to see other than Alexa Bliss making history in her win tonight, which was cool. Maybe the house portion of the House Of Horrors match although even that would disappoint you if you missed it. Pretty safe to say that Smackdown will have the better show this cycle. If you missed this show then go watch Alexa's win, skip everything else. Big step down from Wrestlemania and this is the 2nd worst show of the year so far after Fastlane.

Jericho vs Owens was basically a reminder that the most entertaining feud for months on end never got an actual pay off. Great build. Great storytelling. Great matches. Great moments. Great foreshadowing. Great climax. Spear. Jackhammer. Say goodbye to the feud that got the biggest reactions and always delivered a show that you had to catch. It's okay though, because on the way out they let in something that equals it in disappointing. A shell of what was in consideration to be the best run of a legend and deserving hall of fame inductee named Chris Jericho and a platform a young talent could run with for ages dragged out in mediocre matches and painful segments. This was a slowburn, but they lit the fire too early and then proceeded to watch it as the flame slowly dwindles to a halt. It would be pretty decent, but that would involve the entire past between the two not existing. It was okay.

AA Vs Neville. Another chapter in a book that had a great cover and introduction. Then you get invested into, and you keep reading. The only thing is you slowly start to realize through all the action and moments there isn't much for you to really care about. So you slowly lose interest as time continuously goes on, and there is no rebirth in sight for the foreseeable future. Then you eventually see how many pages are left and feel bad for the guy who wrote it. He had all the potential in the world in regards to both the hero and the villain. The battles they fought in and out of physical and mental worlds they resided in. All of that potential gone to waste. So it is appreciated from a gander and can still be recognized, but it will never live up to the name it could of easily had. It was okay.

Matt & Jeff Hardy vs Cesaro & Sheamus. A great tag team that has had great matches consistently for the past couple of years vs two very good pro-wrestlers in a tag match for titles. The only flaw being it literally had zero purpose or real build outside of two random singles matches and a previous interaction with 2 other tag teams in the mix. This established that future, and provided an okay match with okay storytelling. It was okay, did it's job. Better than the first 2 that literally did nothing.

Alexa vs Bayley. Bliss hasn't wrestled a single great match since she has been in NXT. I just want one match that is on par with peak Bayley and I will be completely fine. She isn't good in ring, and people say she has great character work yet there is hardly any development and quite a lot of the time her playground insults lay flat. She doesn't get a crowd reaction like at least 5-6 women on the WWE roster, and won the championship off someone who can actually wrestle. If you want to watch a 5 foot blonde girl with a cartoonish snarky attitude watch a number of MTV shows or Total Divas. I watch pro-wrestling, because I like pro-wrestling. Not good. Bad.

Wyatt vs Orton. I mean. It's exactly what I expected if that goes for anything. It was cool to see Randy hit Bray with a chair, and Mahal randomly pop up with the WWE championship. Bray also won, I guess. Also, okay. Glad they ended this feud. So, so glad.

Rollins vs Joe. Cool hype package. So personal. So edgy. So cool. Then you watch the match and remember ROH prime Joe no longer exists. Also Rollins's move set has been altered to the point where a majority of stuff people really enjoyed even just before the first injury no longer exists. Best match probably. Felt kind of empty, but I mean at least it was entertaining match wise and progresses this absolutely mind numbing HHH v. Rollins stuff. It was decent.

Strowman vs Reigns. Ok. Exactly what I expected. I feel like I saw this match the first time these two interacted. Reigns can be carried through a good match, but christ when he is with a green dude it is absolutely copy and paste. Painful and felt phoned in. Whatever I guess, it was okay.

Wasn't a let down, because I'd be an idiot to expect something great 3 hours through from WWE. Especially from RAW at that. It was okay, and had several low points. It was still more entertaining than an episode of RAW, but I can honestly say I have seen episodes of Smackdown that were more entertaining than this entire PPV put together. So that is not really a good thing. Smackdown isn't even some god tier pro-wrestling program, but somehow their television destroys a RAW PPV with solid talent on it. Less reason to watch RAW, more to watch Smackdown. Nothing surprising.

Alexa still can't wrestle, and yet another awful title change for the Women's Raw Championship. Hardyz / Cesaro / Sheamus are good pro-wrestlers overall. Wyatt has been booked to low brow meme level. Orton has peak potential, and no product to match it. Mahal is kind of a sore thumb, but sticks out in an interesting way at least. Owens vs Jericho are great pro-wrestlers trying to uphold a destroyed feud. Rollins and Joe have hardly anything to work off of besides a mutual buddy Rollins literally had one match with. Still put in work. Enzo & Cass belong on the pre-show. Strowman is strong, and Grr. Monster. Reigns still can't carry people, and often needs it himself. Aries and Neville are good wrestlers. RAW is worse than Smackdown. House of Horrors was going to be ridiculous.

Knew all that prior, and feel the same way but a bit more negative coming out. At least it accomplished that, I guess.

RAW held it's first PPV since Wrestlemania, and true to form the champ didn't show up for it. What a mistake letting Lesnar hold the title, but that is a subject for another thread. The guys and gals left to carry the show and they did an okay job, just okay. There were hits and misses and I'm sure there will be fallout on RAW tonight.

Pre-Show: Anderson and Gallows VS Enzo Amore & Big Cass

I don't know about anyone else but Enzo and Cass are beginning to bore me to death. They will be in line for a title show somewhere down the road, but I could care less about it. Still think having New Day hold the titles for so long has handicapped the division as a whole. Poor Anderson and Gallows, they came in with such fanfare from NJPW and their confetti cannon has misfired every time. Match was okay, nothing special.

Chris Jericho VS Kevin Owens [United States Championship]

Totally stunned that Jericho won what with the news breaking before the PPV that he is leaving. Assuming that he will drop the title on Tuesday night on SD Live, so I have no idea why he won it in the first place. Match was again okay, since the friendship broke up they have nothing really to feud over. Glad to see it done.

Austin Aries VS Neville [Cruiserweight Championship]

This is one of the matches I was waiting for. Good back and forth action, that's to be expected out of these two, but the finish was a bit screwy. I'm sure the next PPV will be the rubber match. Fully expecting Aries to win the title there.

Hardys VS Sheamus & Cesaro [Raw Tag Team Championship]

Let's see you had two face teams and one of them turned at the end of the match, who didn't see that coming. All in all it was a good match, much better than the tag match on the kick off show. Unfortunately as much as Matt and Jeff are over with the crowd, they don't have the same spark as they did before. Could it be because we are all waiting for Broken Matt Hardy to emerge from the rubble.

Alexa Bliss VS Bayley [Raw Women's Championship]

Not a bad match, but not a great match either. Bliss is gold with the facial expressions but her in ring work leaves something to be desired. Bayley is hugely over with the crowd, being her hometown and everything, but again like the Hardy's the NXT spark has faded a little. This will be interesting going forward to see if she can get it back.

Bray Wyatt VS Randy Orton [House Of Horrors Match - House Portion]

I was waiting for this all week and Bray promised a lot. Like KB said I would be disappointed and I was. They could have done so much more with special effects considering it was clearly filmed in advance. Just awful.

Seth Rollins VS Samoa Joe

The match of the night really and it didn't have a lot of competition. Glad to see Rollins win, although I wish this whole HHH thing was over and done with. Should have ended at Mania, but might continue for awhile much to my chagrin.

Bray Wyatt VS Randy Orton [House Of Horrors Match - In-Ring Portion]

Oh round two of one of the worst matches of the night. No explanation as to how Orton got out from under the fridge and back to the arena. Then we had the added bonus of the Singh brother's and Jinder Mahal from SD Live, invade the match and help Wyatt win. Seriously, Wyatt still needs help after dumping a fridge on Orton. I like Wyatt but winning a match after your opponent has been just attacked by three other men doesn't say a lot for you. Don't know where they will go with Wyatt, but anything was better than last night.

Braun Strowman VS Roman Reigns

Pretty much went as I thought it would. Reigns come's out beat up and tries to take on the Monster of All Men, or something to that effect. He put up a pretty good fight for most of it, but Strowman just proved to be too much. As he should have being 100% healthy and all. This main event is the prime reason Lesnar shouldn't have the title. I'll stop there before I go on a rant.

Final Thoughts

Not one of their best outings. I know they are handicapped by the fact that some of the matches were a cross over from SD Live, and they have an absent champ. But when the best part of the night is Braun Strowman screaming like a madman and knocking the door off the back of an ambulance, you have major problems. This roster is good enough to put on a much better show, what the hell is wrong with creative.

PPVs, Special Events are just not worth watching anymore I guess, except may be for the big 4, because they feel like Sunday Night Raw without commercial breaks and sometimes, Sunday Night Smackdown.

I feel too disinterested and desensitized to watch the major portion of Payback- including decent matches like Seth-Joe and Jericho-Owens.

I glimpsed through the House of Horrors match and it did feel somewhat intriguing and cool, and then I realized, I may as well watch a Horror movie.

I watched the main event and like Pika said, it was a boring, dreadful match.

Most of this show consisted of Rematches from Fastlane/WM, and so will Extreme Rules. Same matches, different stipulations. Except we won't have Orton, Jericho and KO at Extreme Rules and Dean Ambrose, Miz and Finn Balor instead. But it'll still be Seth-Joe, Roman-Strowman, Hardys-Cesaro&Sheamus, and Aries-Neville.

Smackdown's Backlash on the other hand will at least feel like a compelling show with fresh exciting matches.

It was much better last year when there was one World championship and Roman Reigns and AJ Styles tore the house down in the main event.

I'm just bored of Raw, bored of Sunday Night Raw, bored of everything.

Anyways I'm predicting as of this moment, at Extreme Rules:-

Strowman vs Roman in a Last Man Standing match.
Hardys vs Cesaro and Sheamus in a Ladder or TLC match.
Rollins vs Joe most likely a Submission match, or else Steel cage or 2 out of 3 falls.
Aries vs Neville in a No DQ/Falls Count Anywhere type stipulation. (Unless they decide to involve other cruiserweights as well).

I intended to do a match by match analysis but a screw up with my internet connection caused me to lose everything I'd written and I don't feel like doing it again.

For me, I thought last night's show was pretty solid. There weren't any all time classic matches, but I felt most of them, with the exception of the House of Horrors match, ranked between 3 and 3.25 stars.

I'm not wild about Jericho winning the United States Championship, especially if he drops it tomorrow night to Kevin Owens in a rematch, as they could've simply brought Jericho to SmackDown via the Superstar Shakeup. I just hate hot potato runs and it's extremely difficult for me to get behind them.

Neville retaining the way he did was perfectly fine with me. Aries didn't need a second pinfall loss and this keeps him in the title chase while keeping the title on Neville a while longer.

The Hardys vs. Sheamus & Cesaro was much better than I anticipated and I thought the heel turn at the end of the match was nicely done.

I like Alexa Bliss and Bayley, but I don't like how WWE has played hot potato with the Raw Women's Championship.

The House of Horror's match was ridiculous. It wasn't nearly as cheesy as I expected, but it was still pretty dull overall and whoever came up with the notion of filming the first half on some previous night needs to be fired given that it was still broad daylight in San Jose by the time Wyatt & Orton came into the arena last night. I thought Jinder interfering was the only good part about this and while I know Jinder is on SmackDown, I dig that they're having him take some initiative by having him come to Orton rather than wait for a convenient time for the champ.

Rollins vs. Joe was a good outing. I may have preferred Joe winning here so as to play up the injured underdog a bit more, but the way Rollins won made it seem more like a fluke and a desperate act than a decisive win, so I thought it worked out.

Reigns vs. Strowman did exactly what it needed to do. Reigns looked like the valiant babyface while Strowman was the vicious beast who relentlessly beat Reigns into the ground. The match had a great near fall with Reigns spearing Strowman and I also liked how Reigns "kicking out" of the powerslam the first time made it look as though it was literally all Reigns had left.

So yeah, last night's show exceeded my expectations, which weren't all that high to begin with, so I give last night's show a B-, maybe a B.

__________________"What Do I Know Of Cultured Ways, The Gilt, The Craft And The Lie?
I, Who Was Born In A Naked Land And Bred In The Open Sky.
The Subtle Tongue, The Sophist Guile, They Fail When The Broadswords Sing.
Rush In And Die Dogs - I Was A Man Before I Was King."