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Tuesday, July 08, 2008

Unwilling to Start at the Bottom of the Ladder

Since I'm on the subject of entitlement, I might as well continue blogging on the subject. The good news in the following letter is that there seems to be some recognition that work is a necessity and it seems that some young men actually desire to work.

The problem, you ask? (You knew there was a catch, right?) While they claim to be willing to work, they expect to be paid an "average" wage. They want you, a potential employer, to offer them at least $10 an hour. Anything less would be insulting. Never mind that plenty of other people would happily take you up on an offer for less.

Let me tell you boys something and I will tell it to you straight. If you have nothing on your resume, you aren't worth $10 an hour. If you want to start and build a resume, you need to humble yourself and be willing to accept what you can get, which will likely be minimum wage. You have got to leave your ego at the door and just stick a foot in because it is very likely someone else in line. Once you have landed a starter job, you need to demonstrate loyalty, willingness to work, and commitment to learning and advancing your skills.

If your first job is unskilled, be prepared to start at the bottom. If your first job is skilled, be prepared to start at the bottom. You value as a new employee is very little to nothing. Your employer is taking a risk on you, and often an expensive risk at that because he has to train you and after spending good money on you, you may prove yourself less than capable and then he is stuck trying again. You need to be demonstrate you are a team player. You need to open yourself up to criticism and accept it to better yourself.

The following is the letter that got my goat. It is beyond asinine so I'm reserving my comments (or otherwise I'd blog a sociology PhD thesis). But, I know ProfK will have something to say. G-d help us all.

I would like to “put out there” some ideas that I believe can be implemented in our communities to alleviate a common but unnecessary situation and to receive constructive feedback. I feel, and I believe many parents and teachers do as well, that we can and must create opportunities and networks for our young adults to get jobs. The reason I say this is because I know from my personal experience and what I have heard from my siblings that it is difficult to find a steady, average-paying job ($10 an hour or more) during the summer months and after leaving the yeshiva world. The ages that I am referring to are between 14 and 26.

There are many parents who cannot afford camp and their children must remain home for the summer. Not everyone is capable and personable, or has the skills required or the family connections, to find a job as a counselor, waiter, tutor, or lifeguard. Many young adults need to be guided to work efficiently and professionally, but they do not want to do it for free. They should not have to. I suggest that we deal with this problem. I would like to equate it with the shidduch crisis and suggest that we find similar creative solutions found for the shidduch crisis:

1. Regarding shidduchim, many high schools have a yearly gathering for alumni to meet with shadchanim. Similarly, every yeshiva should set up an alumni meeting to help alumni find jobs after they leave yeshiva. I also include those who want to learn full-time. Our yeshivos and high schools should be responsible to find their former talmidim jobs in kollelim, as mohalim, as sofrim, as shochtim, as rabbeim, etc. around the globe.

2. Yeshivos and Jewish organizations should set up a hotline for any student to call for a job and promptly be set up with one. For example, there should be a babysitter hotline where parents can call and be set up with someone who is looking to baby-sit.

3. Yeshivos should set up a similar program to the NASI initiative for shidduchim that should be funded with tuition funds. You pay tuition so that your children can have practical skills to earn money. And I don’t mean scholastic skills. Tuition funds should go directly for that purpose. Understandably, employers don’t want to pay more than they have to, as basic economics show, but the program will reward cash initiatives to those who provide someone with a steady job. The payment schedule can be, for example, $400 for three months for someone age 14 to 18. Even if the employer did not have available job openings that he would be willing to pay for, he can hire a student with the funds from the school and teach him valuable skills and have extra help. Even the school can use those funds to hire students to clean the classrooms or restrooms. Why should we hire illegals or people from the outside to do these jobs? As we know, money talks. If we pay our students $15 to clean the classroom or the restroom, they will probably take it. No, they don’t have the skills, so have someone teach them. Hire one maintenance worker who will show them how to do it. Money should go to pay student babysitters more money than $6 an hour. It is not always worthwhile to baby-sit for the ‘going rate.’ I believe parents will be happy to pay tuition when they know that their hard-earned money is being used to give their own children money.

4. Jobs specifically for high-schoolers should be posted in the school lobby and mentioned in the classrooms. Teachers should ask their students if they need a job.

5. Teachers can be network hubs for their students. They should speak with parents who are owners of stores and inquire about jobs for their students.

6. Allow the yeshiva dorms to be used if someone wants to go to work. What better way is there to show our children/students that we are not elitist than by allowing the Zevuluns to share the dorm with the Yissochors? Many people can make a Yissochor-Zevulun contract inside the dorm room. Our yeshivos need to actively show that they truly believe that Torah does not look down on those earning a parnassa, not just profess it behind closed doors. We must show it from our elementary and high school grades. No student should be without a well-paying job. It will give them the skills and pride to be a helper and a productive member of our society. Isn’t that what we want? They should even get paid above their economical worth if it will stimulate them to acquire good skills.

Jobs are acquired in two ways:

1. The person has a skill that an employer is willing to pay for at the market rate. 2. You have an ‘in’ connection with an owner/employer.

I believe we can cultivate the second way to include all our students. They should never feel like they don’t have a rich uncle to help them get a job when they need it the most.

35 comments:

That is absurd. And, frankly, $6/hour for babysitting is a decent wage when the babysitter most likely doesn't have to buy food, clothing or make rent payments. I was *thrilled* to make minimum wage when I was living under my parents' roof. Two hours at work would pay for a movie. Another few hours would pay for a pizza to go with it, etc. What more do they really need?

While some of the ideas here are good (such as creating alumni networks to help students find jobs - a tactic used in colleges), the idea that we need to incentivize students to work is laughable. Work is a contract - you do X, I pay Y. If you don't want Y, then I'll find someone else to do X. Usually, especially in non-skilled labor, there are more than enough people willing to do X, usually for far less than Y.

But no, Jews are better than that. They're worth more than Y. A Jew should be paid Y when a non-Jew doing the same job would also get Y?! Chalilah!

If only they wouldn't come begging and asking for money I wouldn't care. You don't want to work and would rather starve, fine. But no, they not only don't want to work, the work offered is too demeaning or low paying so everyone should subsidize them - even when they do work!

I was paid $10 an hour as an engineering intern during summers at college! This is hardly unskilled labor. And you know what? I felt LUCKY! I realized I knew absolutely nothing practicable and would be receiving training while getting paid something. I also realized I needed this internship to build my resume and get something better and higher paying after I graduated. I could go on about how the same "tactics" (or common sense) helped me more than triple my salary within 5 years of graduating college, but that's all nurishkeit. Better someone provide financial incentives for me to want to get ahead in life, otherwise what's the point?

SL, I am so struck dumb that I cannot even begin to comment on this. Were it Purim time I would hope and pray that it was just a poor piece of Purim Torah. But it's not Purim Torah. Your posting and a previous one of mine http://conversationsinklal.blogspot.com/2007/12/ideal-jobs-or-work-is-grim-fairytale.html dovetail perfectly--the students with unrealistic expectations and an adult who matches their unrealistic expectations. I'm taking two aspirin and coming back later--maybe what I just read will not make my head hurt and my stomache churn then.

1. The person has a skill that an employer is willing to pay for at the market rate.

2. You have an ‘in’ connection with an owner/employer. "

Correction: Jobs are acquired in one way, through factors 1 AND 2.

In the "real world", you look for and apply for work that matches your skills, and then NETWORK to give you an edge in finding leads/getting hired (via rich uncles, alumni networks, friends, etc). The letter writer's expectation that having connections should allow him to get a job that he's not qualified for is very, very disturbing.

I do feel that the suggestion of hiring within the community for janitorial work and the like is a good one, however, paying them 15$ an hour with the already skyrocketing tuition costs is just ludicrous. I don't make that much in my part-time office job, and I have an undergraduate degree! (Though I did once get that wage for teaching knitting and crocheting in a summer camp, but I could only work a small number of hours since they had to cut their budget, [I did offer to take a pay cut instead] and I wasn't expecting them to actually give me that wage when they asked about salary. I figured I would aim higher and let them pay me something lower. And I am getting a decent wage now, but $15 an hour is a bit ridiculous for unskilled labor.) Let them work for whatever wage the market dictates. Also, I feel like many would feel that kind of work "beneath" them, and thus wouldn't apply for the job to begin with.

I also do think that having an alumni network is a good idea, but that only works when people are applying for jobs they are qualified for.

Really, it comes down to the fact that these kids need to learn some marketable skills that would make them employable. And recognize that a low-paying job is better than not making any money at all.

I am not only disturbed but incredulous. My three older children all managed to find summer jobs on their own. And have since they were 14. yes, networking helps and is a good idea. But the main thing it takes is a willingness to put in the effort to find the jobs, work hard at the jobs, and learn how to do them well. And if you do well at minimum (or whatever the starting salary in your area is) chances are you can get a job there next summer at a higher rate. because the employer will know you and won't be taking a risk.

It is fine to nework, and a good idea to set up networks with the yeshivot. But you can get a job without it. Try printing some resumes and knocking on the retail stores. They usually need extra help in the summers. If you want to be a camp counsellor, go to the camp as a CIT the year before (you'll have to pay a little for that, but if you do well, you will have a job the next summer.) Try an online employment service that covers your area. And apply for many jobs at once; don't try one at a time--that takes too long. If you have some skills (say you are a college student who has learned some useful technical material) and want a paid internship apply early--there are many more Summer positions unfilled in November than in March.

Finally, no job is beneath your dignity, if it is the only one you can find. Take it.

I should add that while we might like to hire jantorial staff within the community, equal employment opportunity is the law in the US. Any religious requirement has to be a bona fide job requirement. that is, a shul can insist that the Rav be a frum jew; not so the plumber.

I'm appalled. Having a tough first / early job is an important driver in making folks realize that they need to learn enough and work hard enough to do better. If someone is handed a pile o' money without working for it, then he is unlikely to truly appreciate its value.

This absurd, idiotic letter is motzi laz al harishonim/ demeans previous generations who showed initiative and worked hard at whatever honest job they could find! There is absolutely nothing wrong with pounding the pavement, going from business to business until someone agrees to hire you.

What happened to 'pat b'melah tochal'/ subsist on bread and salt...? That mishnah is an ideological statement against the kind of entitlement syndrome that the American frum community seems to be creating. Without exception, all the people we hold up as models were hard workers who got by on little.

Something is deeply rotten in the frum community...

Oh, and if that kid is having trouble landing a job, maybe he should try changing his attitude.

My commentors are more prolific than I am tonight. This letter just makes my blood boil. These boys need to pick up the classifieds, start knocking on doors, and make some cold calls. You can't expect everyone to do everything for you. We all start at the bottom, but with this attitude they won't even start. And that is what is really scary.

If kids want to earn more for babysitting, then they should be willing to leave the warm comfort of frum families. I worked for well-to-do non-frum families in a nearby area and got paid $6 an hour to watch sleeping kids in 1994!

I think the real solution here is to 1. offer classes that teach real job skills in religious schools/yeshivot. I was told that people who go to a temp agency will generally get ~25% more money if they can touch type. If you're a parent, invest the $25 in typer shark or something like that!

Wow. I am speechless. Reading letters like this make it harder and harder for me to support the Yeshiva model. I cannot believe the entitlement expressed.

As an interior decorator I charge between 80-150/hour. But I have been doing this for ten years. When I started I realized I needed to get my name around and build a portfolio. I offered my services for free while I was still in school. All I asked was for referrals if they were happy with me. By the time I graduated I was able to ask for $30/hour because I had the experience behind me.

Had I started out insisting on 15 or even ten an hour, I might still be out there scrounging for work.

Not to open a can of worms, but I think women who leave the job force to care for children should think about these blog entries. Many women refuse or are reluctant to reenter (or enter) the job market because they'll be paid so little. Often the argument is that going to work isn't "worth it" because in the end he costs exceed the income. Isn't this the same type of attitude of not being willing to start at the bottom? I understand there are different concerns such as family, but the excuse is just as lame as asking for incentives because $10/hr is too low or saying being paid less than $60K is insulting and not worth it. Working for a few months/years at the bottom will often lead to higher salaries and better jobs and make it more "worth it".

If the reason for not working is family, then just admit it and be proud, there's nothing wrong with being there for one's family - but if not, then reevaluate your attitude in light of these blog entries. It's easy to point fingers at the "bochurs", but many people have the same attitude.

I work at a university and I have two student workers who do clerical work for me for $7/hour. They’re engineering undergrads who are in school here full-time on full scholarship. They both work 20 hours a week for “spending money” during the school year and work full-time during the summer. Both are excellent students and great workers who are happy with the job they have.

They aren’t frum guys-- they aren’t even Jewish. One is African-American and the other is an international student from Central America. They realize that they could be flipping burgers in some hot kitchen for the same amount of money and so they don’t complain when I ask them to do “menial” jobs like collect the recycling or clean out the refrigerator. I do try to give them tasks that will aid in “transferable skills,” such as writing procedures or creating a new spreadsheet to track documents. I give them a task and ask them to use their own critical thinking skills to figure it out so that they can build up their resumes a bit while earning some spending money.

Also, my husband has been approached over the years by (post-high school) yeshiva graduates who have also earned some type of business degree at the local college. They usually want him to help them get an interview at the company he works for (a large employer in our area), but nine times out of ten he can’t help them out because they have solid no experience.

There has also been occasion where he’s too concerned that a particular person wouldn’t step up to the plate and work hard, therefore reflecting badly on his recommendation, so he just won’t do it for them. There attitude is “you’re a frum Jew and I’m a frum Jew, so you should do everything in your power to get me this interview.” He’s all for “helpin’ a brother (the Jewish kind) out” but he has to be confident that these young men can step up to the plate, are willing to work for long (too long!) hours for $40-45k a year for the first couple of years while the prove themselves.

I do think it’s a nice idea for the post-high school yeshiva’s to have some type of network or career services office, but surely not for high-schoolers; these kids can walk into the local Starbucks or Target and apply for a job. (I worked all sorts of retail jobs in college and was able to work out the issue of not working Shabbat- that isn’t an excuse). It’s a waste of tuition dollars. Instead, invest in a good college/career counselor to get the boys (and girls) thinking about careers early on.

Finally, the Jewish federation in our area has done a decent job of creating a vocational aid/training service where you can take your resume to get reviewed and edited, learn interview skills, take simple computing workshops, take tests to find your best career fit, learn about apprenticeships and internships, and even join a network to get notice about jobs before they go public on places like monster.com or careerbuilder.com. This office does not place people in jobs; rather they seek to give them the skills (and often the connections) to get their foot in the door. The applicants have to “land the job” based on their own merits (education, experience, interview, references). I’m sure that other communities must have something similar for people to take advantage of.

My 15 year old is in Israel for the month of July because he worked his tail off in the weeks preceeding Pesach at a local kosher store shlepping boxes and loading cars. He got paid minimum wage plus tips. He contributed $1200 towards his trip.

My 17 year old son is working this summer at a local kosher establishment in the JCC as a kitchen helper and "assistant" masgiach. They supply the food to the JCC summer camp and several other Jewish camps in the area. He's getting about $8/hour. This is the 2nd year he's doing it. He boss from last year invited him back.

My oldest (18) is going off to yeshiva in the fall. He used to work as a mashgiach. Now, he's giving fishing lessons to raise spending money for his year (or so) away. Word of mouth is bringing in lots of customers. He gets to do something he loves doing, teaches it to others, and helps pay his yeshiva expenses.

We helped them get the jobs by making a few phone calls to open the door for an interview. They did the rest themselves. The fishing things was my son's idea. We just gave him some advice on pricing the service.

The writer of this letter is obviously not living in the real world. Here are a few points

1. I wouldn't hire just anyone to baby-sit my children. I would want to make sure that this person is responsible and has experience. Why would someone hire any teenager through babysitter hotline is beyond me?

2. Cleaning toilets is considered an unskilled labor, that is why it's pay is so low.

3. Why would a maintenance man want to train people who will take over his job and leave him unemployed?

4. If all maintenance men were Jewish, who would do goy-work on shabbos and yom-tov?

5. Many who don't have a job opening will not hire someone for an incentive of mere $400? Hiring someone involves more than just salary spending for the owner. There are things like training which take away time from regular work; extra space for another employee, as you should know rent is not cheap; liability insurance which has to be paid by the owner.

6. Connection with an owner/employer can only land someone a minimum wage job everything else is based on merit. Why would someone tolerate and spend money on a useless bum, even if it is a friend or a relative? Business is business.

7. And this point bothered me the most. Since when is $10 an hour considered an average wage? Well maybe in Arkansas? But in NY area it is not an average.

I finally figured out what bothered me most about the letter. Yes, the air of entitlement grated on my nerves. But more than that is the sense of Infantalism that pervades the letter. The writer's solutions, with only one exception, add to the problem rather than provide any workable solutions. "Rich Uncle-ism" says to children you aren't capable of doing this on your own so you better find someone who can do it for you.

It would seem that an entire generation is incapable of doing anything for itself, with the exception of sticking hands out to gather in what's given to them. WE have created this mess and the way to clear up the mess is not to just shrug shoulders and talk about what others could do to help. Yes, schools and parents should be actively teaching and discussing with students what work is and what is required to get jobs. Skills need acquiring before you try to get a job. Knowledge of the requirements of the working world need to be known ahead of time. There needs to be some plain talking about what is realistic to expect when you first start to work. But we need to put the onus of getting those skills and getting those jobs back where it belongs--on those who need the jobs.

When the letter writer talks about subsidizing students so they are "making what they should be making" he is talking nonsense. Following his suggestions would only further infantalize a group that already has problems enough, not to mention being totally out of touch with the reality of the work world.

I did a quick search on my university databases for internships that were being offered this past year. Well more than half offered NO monetary compensation whatsoever. They ran from three days to a semester in length. Their purpose was exposure and experience. In this they are no different than the system of apprenticeships that was so common years ago. Apprentices frequently paid a master so that they could get the training they needed. If they were lucky they might have gotten room and board.

The writer says:" You pay tuition so that your children can have practical skills to earn money. And I don’t mean scholastic skills. Tuition funds should go directly for that purpose." So scholastic skills have no application to the work world? You know which ones I mean--reading and writing and math skills and critical thinking. Yeah, right.I'll tell you what--yeshivas have $400 of my tuition money to give to bosses to pay them to train my kids in how to work? How about taking that money and hiring someone to teach all year long the skills,knowledge and attitudes necessary in the workplace? How about getting off the anti-computer crusade and using the money to buy computers for the school and teaching the students computer skills before they go looking for a job? Reduce my tuition by $400 and I can teach my own kids how to clean toilets, mow lawns, and baby sit. I might even pay them--at minimum wage.

The idea of having schools provide a networking situation for their students and graduates is a good one and has been covered by other commenters more than adequately.

And could we please not call this a frum problem? This is a problem for some segments of the frum community, not all.

It really is no wonder that some of my students feel that $60K a year is the absolute minimum starting salary--they were probably the 14 year olds who thought that working for $15 an hour was slave labor, and minimum wage was not to even be entertained.

My oldest daughter has her first summer job now. If you calculate how much it comes to an hour, it is just $1 and change, as it is $10 a day for 9-4. And the camp charges kids over $200 a week. But I still think it is worthwhile experience for my daughter because holding down any job requires one to behave responsibly, to tough it out even when things are not wholly to their liking, and to get along with others at work.

And years ago, when my husband first entered the computer field (with a Master's degree prior to computer classes), he took a QA job that paid just $12 an hour. He wasn't thrilled about it but understood that you don't start at the top.

Since when is $10 an hour considered an average wage? Well maybe in Arkansas? But in NY area it is not an average.

mlevin we are talking here about unskilled and uneducated workers starting from 14 in age. The average wage even here in NY is not ten an hour for these kinds of workers but can be lower and only minimum wage. Some jobs like camps pay even less.

I keep thinking about what JS said:"Often the argument is that going to work isn't "worth it" because in the end he costs exceed the income."

I've actually noticed something like this in some of my cousins. They see a job's "worth" as being solely in how much they're going to be paid for it. They don't see the soft skills as being valuable-- learning to get your tail to work on time and follow a schedule whether or not you're motivated to work that day, learning to deal with unpleasant people, learning to multi-task, etc. I learned a thousand skills and lessons at my retail job that have served me well in everything that has followed. A job isn't just a paycheck.

In between all of the wishful thinking, the writer does make a few good suggestions: encouraging high school students to get summer jobs (instead of sitting around doing nothing), creating more of a network within each frum community to assist job-seekers, and employers connected with the yeshiva community looking for opportunities they can provide young people to build their resume. (But, this would be an internship with no or low pay - not what the writer is asking for.)

Tikvah - if you read a letter, author specifically mentions 14-26. At 26 one should have experience and skills far beyond $10 per hour. It is impossible to provide for a family on $10/hour today in NY. On the other hand this same author also considers maintenance man's job as a skilled job.

Mlevin, let me respond to your statement "At 26 one should have experience and skills far beyond $10 per hour." You are right--they should have it, but they don't. The boys in my classes are mostly products of the more right yeshiva system. As seniors they are in their low to mid-twenties; some are older. I do resume writing with them as part of the curriculum. Less than one-quarter of them have or have had full time jobs or even part-time jobs, even if for the summer, the only exception being summer camp counselors or waiters for some of them. They have no marketable skills and nothing to put on those resumes. They are lucky, however, because they will at least have a college degree to take with them out into the working world; they'll be bringing some knowledge with them even if not skills. But what about the ones who don't go to college and have the same dismal work background? You are right that you can't support a family on $10 an hour in NY--or anywhere else in the States. But they aren't worth more than that $10 if they aren't offering anything that employers want or need.

One of my students put down under "Work Experience" on his resume as his only job "Attend yeshiva full time." And he doesn't understand why that is not just as much of a job as going to an office is.

Reminds me of when we were trying to find mashgichim for the kosher kitchens on campus. The second the bochurs heard what we wanted to pay AND the fact that they'd actually have to work in the kitchen, the vast majority ran for the hills (we did eventually find people with a work ethic). It seems they instead expected it to be sitting around, learning, schmoozing, and earning a fat paycheck (unfortunately, many mashgichim work is exactly this which raises the cost of food). And the amount we were offering was higher than many of workers in the kitchen doing very difficult, tiring work.

All goes back to the fact that certain work is just demeaning, pay should be high, and work should be easy.

I have a brother who's very imature and irresponsible. Last year, at 35, he decided to become a chef. He got a job at some fancy hotel's kitchen and enrolled in a culinary school. A year later, now, he decided that it's not for him. [Translation: job is too difficult]. He is delivering pizzas making $10/per hour including tips and gets leftover food at the end of the day. Says it's much easier and more pay. He doesn't see that there is no future in pizza delivery.

Sometimes, it's really not economical for a mom to work, particularly if she doesn't have a profession. To go be a receptionist at a doctor's office and pay out more than your salary in childcare (for example) isn't in the family's best interests. OTOH, if the mother has a profession, staying in the field and advancing may be long-term worthwhile even if it's a financial hardship short-term.

Agree 100% with your latter posting, but in regards to the one immediately prior, no one has a profession until they start working. My wife's cousin never finished college and started working as a receptionist in a doctor's office. In the years since then she's worked herself up to being office manager at a doctor's office at one job and managing billing and insurances in a hospital at another. You have to start somewhere and if you're motivated and hard-working you learn critical skills that are very useful in moving up the ladder. What started off as a "lowly" job gave her knowledge of the inner workings of medical offices, how insurance works, what forms need to be filled out and how, etc - all of which are highly valued. She now makes a very decent living all without a degree.

Why don't you all just shut up and mind your own business?No, I'm not in Kollel, Yes, I finished college with a masters degree, but frankly all this 'blood boiling' over some anonymous letters to the Yated or Yeshiva World, week after week, after week, realy doesn't speak well for any of you.Plus it isn't healthy.

Just grow up and move on already.

I won't even bother with giving some perspective to the attitudes or stories endlessly picked on because I realize the crowd here is simply to close minded and hate filled (as evidenced by this outrageous obsession)to bother talking to.

And what does it say about you that you read a blog week after week after week, read comments on the blog week after week after week, and get your blood boiling over anonymous postings and comments? Maybe look in a mirror once in a while. If you have something to add, positive or negative, do so...but what in the world did your post just add?

I have to agree with js's early comments.... networking, definitely. entitlement, no way.

Like everyone else, I worked for minimum wage for awhile, and slowly acquired the skills and education, with generous help from my parents, until I got my career started. I don't have a problem with hiring from within your community... that makes for a strong, respectable community of self-sufficient individuals who are able to support one another.

But I would also be the first to hire someone from outside if he were more qualified for the job. The "right" to work is earned... by working and doing your job well. I have had the troubling experience of working with people who think they are doing everyone a favor just by showing up.... their attitude brings down the whole team, and no one is doing them, or the work team,any favors by keeping them around.