March 6, 2012

So we had this respectful burial at sea, which was intended to impress/mollify/appease whomever, and now it turns out it never happened. I think messages of respect can be meaningful, even if they are lies, but they must be believed. The messenger needs a reputation for honesty. And the exposure of one lie — especially one this big — makes all your other messages suspect.

Should Obama apologize? What's the point? It will not be believed.

IN THE COMMENTS: Many people don't like the way I've phrased this post. Traditional guy says: "this was a leak from a gossipy analysis done by Stratfor which is not a US Government entity but is a private seller of rumors."

And fleetusa said: "This is no longer on Drudge. Error? Internet Mischief?" I original got to the story I linked to through Drudge. It was the top story at Drudge an hour ago, with a photo of bin Laden. I wonder if someone in the administration asked/pressured Drudge to take it down. It is harmful to American interests. I wouldn't have posted if it hadn't been so conspicuously proclaimed on Drudge.

Wikileaks got their reputation for hacking the State Department cables. But this was a leak from a gossipy analysis done by Stratfor which is not a US Government entity but is a private seller of rumors .

The linked article does not support the statement that his body was brought to the US. It merely says that the director of intelligence for a contractor "believes" that it happened, citing his similar "belief" that the FBI and DOJ would have treated the "body" as a "crime scene."

I have no idea (and doubt that anyone else here does either) whether that fellow has any solid basis for his stated "beliefs." Certainly, the linked article provides none.

Wikileaks got their reputation for hacking the State Department cables. But this was a leak from a gossipy analysis done by Stratfor which is not a US Government entity but is a private seller of rumors ."

This is exactly right.

We now have another clue as to why Althouse voted for Obama: gullibility.

And no, of course Obama doesn't need to apologize for an idiotic, speculative email exchange between two wanna-be's...

Well, the story doesn't seem to have much support, it's about what one guy believes. He's not even stating that he has personal knowledge of what happened, or that anyone with personal knowledge says that OBL was brought to the US. The story gives no basis on which the guy believes this may be the case, other than the Eichmann scenario. Not much here.

I can't seem to recall a time when the Islamic Rage Boys waited patiently for factual confirmation before the murders begin. They don't need facts, they don't read for context, they just need a hint of being slighted.

The officers of the aircraft carrier know. The sailors too, probably. And I am sure, some of the sailors families. And unless the sailors have been severely threatened, there is where a leak would occur. Since it hasn't,(because you can threaten all you want but people will do crazy things),I don't really think the e-mail leak is accurate.(and I don't trust ANY government)

Not facts, just reasonable assumptions based on peoples behavior.

With that said, I wouldn't put it past the government to lie about the bodies disposal either.

The reporting on this is shameful. One analyst with a private firm speculated that he was brought back to the U.S. He's got no actual knowledge of what happened. Whoever wrote that article & headline is a complete hack.

I don't believe that it is true, because I don't believe that even this Administration could be so stupid. Yes, they have shown an amazing ineptitude when it comes to foreign affairs. It is what happens when you put a political hack with no foreign relations experience in charge of the State Department. And, then have her overseen by someone who has even less experience, to amount that he oversees anyone.

I’ll reiterate what I wrote the week that the news of Bin Laden’s death broke:

1) I think we actually did kill Bin Laden because it’s nearly eighteen months before the next Presidential election. If Bin Laden ever turned up alive, Obama and those closest to him would be finished.

2) It was a sign of both weakness and stupidity for the administration to refuse to show the body the way we have other prominent public enemies and terrorists that we’ve killed in past.

It's ultimately a rumor, but I must believe it is correct. There is no way the Obama administration and the CIA dump an important piece of evidence in the ocean. If this report is correct, I think more highly of Obama.

I called this way back when:

"This body is also an important piece of evidence. Religious traditions do not dictate that we start teaching creationism in schools. Likewise, religious traditions should not dictate that we throw forensic science out the window. Now who is fighting the war on science?

For the record, I think the sea burial story is just a cover story. There is no way the CIA threw such an important piece of evidence into the sea.

It doesn't and wouldn't matter to Christians, and I don't think to Jews. But, my understanding is that it is a big thing with Muslims, where you need to bury or otherwise dispose of the body within a couple of days, under the precepts of their religion. This is usually done by burial, but may be at sea, since traditionally if you were at sea, it would take too long to get back to shore for a proper burial within the alloted time.

So, if OBL's body was not buried, but brought back to the States, it could be seen as a deliberate affront against Muslims world wide, esp. after appearing to initially deliberately respect their religion at the time of his death.

Which is why I don't believe that either the Secretary of State, nor the President, are so ignorant and oblivious that they could have allowed it to happen.

"It's ultimately a rumor, but I must believe it is correct. There is no way the Obama administration and the CIA dump an important piece of evidence in the ocean. If this report is correct, I think more highly of Obama."

important piece of evidence of what, exactly?

Who, given they said they buried the body at sea, could they possibly show "important piece of evidence" to?

Or, even if they did as the Stratfor boys speculate, does one think they haven't destroyed they body once whomever needed to see it saw it?

So, are Obama and the DNC now dining on choice cuts of UBL to rev themselves up for re-election? Are they selling bits and pieces as relics? Have they made an offer to Dublin to have them stand in for St. O'Toole's relics?

Does anyone believe anything the U.S. says anymore? Given the flotilla of lies that carried us into an illegal war of aggression against Iraq, and given our mission creep into numerous other countries in the region, isn't it obvious we're just doing whatever the fuck we want--including killing whomever we want--and justifying it after the fact with glib and transparent doublespeak?

Bruce if Bin Laden is dead there is no benefit to bringing his body to the US. If he is not dead ( then bringing to the US for interogation followed by a summary execution) then staging a show would make sense. The guy is dead, any other conclusion is nut job fantasy. I can't stand Obama but even a blind squirl finds a nut and the this is the one and probably the only time he got something right. I only hope before he went to hell Bin Laden realized his express ride to hell was courtesy of Seal Team Six.

2) The middle - those who fall in line because of low intelligence, mostly inculcated by the American Public School System. In otherwords, most Democrats and the very tired conservatives who are spineless and just too tired to stand up to the pussy whipping Nancy Pelosi and Rachel Maddow

3) The Principaled - These can actually be on either side of the political spectrum, yes including liberals that do not lie (a small number, I know)

As opposed to those illegal wars of non aggression that used to be all the rage. What law was this again that was broken? If you can pay off the dictators, thugs and crooks that make a significant percentage of the UN to back your play, does that make it a legal war? How about the aggression part? Is that a subclause of the UN vote?

Oh, I don't know...maybe HOW HE FREAKING SURVIVED FOR TEN YEARS without our intelligence knowing where to find him?

Our intelligence said he had kidney problems. Was that true? If it was true, shouldn't we be oh I don't know CURIOUS if and where he was getting treatment? And what kind of treatment. Don't we want to track down the doctors and talk to them if can? And if it wasn't true, don't we want to know how good our information was and failure was?

There is no way the CIA let this evidence sink to the bottom of the ocean.

Bin Laden being buried at sea was meant to be respectful? I don't seem to recall anyone talking about how respectful it was. And it certainly wasn't seen as respectful outside the U.S - it was seen as precisely was it was, and what even we in the U.S. saw it as. A body dump.

So the question is, is this news good or bad in terms of international relations?

Of course it's bad. No matter what it was, it would be bad. No matter what we did with Bin Laden, it was going to be bad.

As a child growing up in the Vietnam Era, magazines like Argosy used to contain gritty pulp fiction about that war. Yes, I read lots of crap as a child. One recurring set piece in stories of Green Berets and other front line troops is that they would collect ears from dead enemies, or fingers, or toes, as trophies of their kills.

And of course, the shriveled, mummified penis of Ho Chi Minh was always displayed somewhere in their front line compound, nailed to a wall. Usually a female reporter visiting the troops would be seduced after being given a showing of the relic. Hey, I said it was pulp fiction!

I have not heard nor read of such a thing regarding the late unlamented Osama. But if there isn't a prayer rug, a head scarf, some prayer beads, or at least a few weapons from that compound floating around the SOG compound back in Afghanistan I will be amazed.

OK, maybe I'm dusting off the tin-foil hat, but I smell a rope-a-dope. My guess is that this rumor was leaked to let it percolate a bit so the administration can eventually disprove it with the so-far elusive photos of the burial a bit closer to the election.

I have always maintained that the dead Osama photos will be released in response to a FOIA request that will be "finally" be adjudicated sometime around October 2012.

They're talking about it on my morning news. Now they're talking about something McCain said. Now they're talking about yesterdays earthquakes (that most people slept through). Now they're talking about wind. And now traffic, and now it's a commercial.

I totally live-blogged the morning news for you exactly as it happened, without pausing!

"There is no way the CIA let this evidence sink to the bottom of the ocean."

OK, so your assumption is, they didn't kill him.

I don't believe that, given the nature of the operation. But if it were true, then yes, they'd not "let this evidence sink to the bottom of the ocean."

But there's no evidence they did that, is there? None of the surivors, now in Pakistani custody, have said bin Laden was hustled out of his compound alive. So, this is just speculation, informed by what? Conspiracy theories? Hollywood movies? Hope? A vain effort to validate a previous comment made months ago?

"There is no way the CIA let this evidence sink to the bottom of the ocean."

OK, so your assumption is, they didn't kill him.

I don't believe that, given the nature of the operation. But if it were true, then yes, they'd not "let this evidence sink to the bottom of the ocean."

But there's no evidence they did that, is there? None of the surivors, now in Pakistani custody, have said bin Laden was hustled out of his compound alive. So, this is just speculation, informed by what? Conspiracy theories? Hollywood movies? Hope? A vain effort to validate a previous comment made months ago?

Why on earth would the CIA bring that bag of camel manure back to the US? What purpose would it serve, especially being kept secret? What, they wanted to do an autopsy to see if the bullets to the head really killed him?

I honestly dont understand why they just did leave the corpse there with half his head shot off--dragging his (dead) sorry ass out and putting in an aircraft jeopardized the entire seal team--It would be abundantly clear from paki media that he was dead--

Awesome - reminds of the old conspiracy altnet days. Maybe the Greys are maintaining him in a stasis field....

I do remember how a committed Lefty on another site was insisting that OBL was in a freezer on Bagram Airfield, awaiting GWB's revelation of the kill, in time to secure the 2004 election...when I pointed out that I was the XO of BAF at the time, he just waived me off "oh, you wouldn't know where they put him". Seems people always have (or had)some sort of really goofy ideas about the late OBL.

Shilo--as can die hard liberals--it rather depends on which side of the spectrum they are noted. Idiocy is an equal opportunity employer from both the left and the right. When you bend the spectrum back, I submit you will find there isnt a dimes worth of difference between the left and the right.

Huh? How do you get that? My assumption is that it is more likely that the government told a "white lie" than it is that the CIA completely Gomer Pyled the investigation.

It would be one thing if the government conducted a full investigation on the corpse, tissue by tissue, organ by organ, and THEN dumped the body in the ocean. That I could buy. To believe that the government hastily dumped the body in the ocean a mere hours after obtaining it? That would be so foolish that I cannot accept it.

The US government spent billions and billions of dollars and ten years tracking down Bin Laden. I am supposed to accept without skepticism the notion that they pitched the body without first squeezing every last bit of evidence and intel out of it?

Or hey, maybe the official story is correct. Maybe the CIA treated the body with less care and deliberation than the LA coroner is treating Andrew Breitbart's body.

I personally think they didn't kill him. OBL's brain is a bigger intelligence haul than anything they could get from a hard drive. I'm guessing he's in a drugged haze in some basement in Diego Garcia. He'll be buried at sea once we're done with him.

Diego Garcia is a longgg way from anywhere. The Saratoga was in the Indian Ocean for about a month in 1985 until Khadafi's line of death nonsense brought us back to the Med. Thanx Muammar! :) I digress.

This just in. New Bin Laden video released by Al Jazeera. In the tape Bin Laden appears in a tent with an AK47 leaning behind him, statesmanlike monotone throughout he taunts the United States present and past administrations and observes what he calls the obvious destruction of the United States which will continuine apace God willing.

In the tape Bin Laden cites current events in Middle East and analysts are studying the tape for editing to pin down the date of production. One CIA analyst who would not be identified said, "Yeah well, those jumpy bits where he's talking about Hilary Clinton keeping her little dick out of Syria are especially interesting because they're all jumpy and they look like it was pieced together word for word. As soon as we get someone in here who knows what language they're talking we'll get a better handle on this."

Problem is, is that no believes anything Urkel says or does. Even if it's true, the messenger killed his own credibility not only with his own citizens, but set it up that way when he dithered on his birth certificate nonsense for so long. Not to mention that this master of transparency has done nothing but hide his true intentions for this country. Oh wait.

I'm sorry I'm late to the party, but I saw one thing that needed comment on:

"Our intelligence said he had kidney problems. Was that true? If it was true, shouldn't we be oh I don't know CURIOUS if and where he was getting treatment? And what kind of treatment. Don't we want to track down the doctors and talk to them if can? And if it wasn't true, don't we want to know how good our information was and failure was?"

"Indian Muslims, Internet gurus, television anchors, and at least one prime minister have said that [Osama] bin Laden has kidney trouble. So where is the evidence? In short, there is no evidence, just a lot of chatter. There is only one presumably well-informed source who has gone on the record to say that bin Laden was on dialysis: Pakistani Prime Minister Pervez Musharraf. And he later changed his mind. At first, Gen. Pervez Musharraf seemed to strongly endorse the notion, in January 2002. "I think now, frankly, he is dead for the reason he is a patient, he is a kidney patient," he told CNN. Gen. Musharraf added, "Pakistan knew bin Laden took two dialysis machines into Afghanistan. One was specifically for his own personal use." Over the next few years, bin Laden would appear alive and well in a string of audio and video tapes. In December 2004, when Gen. Musharraf again sat down with CNN's Wolf Blitzer, he all but reversed himself. In fact, there is a mountain of evidence that bin Laden is not on dialysis. No medical report has been produced that shows bin Laden is on dialysis. No reporter who has actually met bin Laden has seen the archterrorist hooked up to a dialysis machine or heard him talk about it. Robert Fisk, the only Western journalist to interview bin Laden three times, makes no mention of dialysis. Peter Bergen led a CNN team into Afghanistan to interview bin Laden in 1997. Bin Laden appeared healthy and strong; neither the reporters nor bin Laden mentioned dialysis or kidney trouble. Even bin Laden's longtime associates dispute the kidney ailment meme. Saudi newspaper editor Khaled Batarfi has known bin Laden for two decades, ever since the two were neighbors in the Saudi port city of Jeddah. He told the Sunday Tasmanian, an Australian newspaper, that bin Laden "does not suffer from kidney disease...

...Dr. Amer Aziz, a British citizen born in Pakistan, was interrogated by eight CIA and FBI agents, as well as by Pakistani intelligence officers. Strongly sympathetic to radical Islam, Aziz had treated bin Laden for years. He reportedly admitted to visiting bin Laden after the September 11 attacks. Upon his release, he talked freely to Paul Haven of the Associated Press in November 2002. The doctor said he had given bin Laden a "complete physical" in 1999 and treated him for back injuries after bin Laden was thrown from a horse. "His kidneys were fine," the doctor told Mr. Haven. He said "If you're on dialysis, you have a special look. I didn't see any of that," and added that bin Laden "was walking. He was healthy." Aziz was emphatic: "I did not see any evidence of kidney disease; I didn't see any evidence of dialysis."

Sorry for the long excerpt, but the point is made: The entire Bin Laden on Dialysis thing was just one of those internet rumors.

"It would be one thing if the government conducted a full investigation on the corpse, tissue by tissue, organ by organ, and THEN dumped the body in the ocean."

What makes you think they didn't? You don't need a "government" to conduct a post mortem, and I do not doubt that there was an examiner with every necessary tool in hand, virtually waiting on the tarmac for delivery of the corpse. They'd have certainly been prepared to do immediate DNA testing, and they could easily have preserved any, if not all, organs and tissues of interest while technically giving the body a maritime send off.

We could easily be looking at both/and, not either/or: one body feeding the fishes, and one body on ice in a secure location.

"We could easily be looking at both/and, not either/or: one body feeding the fishes, and one body on ice in a secure location."

This is certainly possible. Perhaps the military harvested all the organs, preserved his head, thoroughly scanned his body for shrapnel, gathered some more tissue and bone samples, and then tossed whatever was left in the ocean. That's possible.

But if you are going through that much effort to issue a misleading account of what happened, isn't it simply easier to tell a white lie?

Not at all.Whether alive or dead it isn't important enough to waste time over.And since, when confronted with a myriad of different scenarios, the simplest explanation is usually the truth.He is an ex terrorist. He is no more. He has joined the choir invisible.he ain't pinen for the fjiords.He is sooo, like, last season.

"It would be one thing if the government conducted a full investigation on the corpse, tissue by tissue, organ by organ, and THEN dumped the body in the ocean. That I could buy. To believe that the government hastily dumped the body in the ocean a mere hours after obtaining it? That would be so foolish that I cannot accept it."

...tissue by tissue,organ by organ...

Let me guess, you deal with OCD issues, right?

What intelligence could we gather from his spleen?

Or his lungs? O

Or his brain?

Did it have a USB port?

Dude. Let it go.

He's dead, thank God (and Seal Team VI).

Some sea creatures dined well, and now all that's left of him are the diminishing vestiges of a failed terrorist organization and it's damage.

The spleen is a red herring. Maybe the spleen is significant, maybe not. Are you qualified to say there is no possible way that any organ or tissue would have any investigatory value?

The guy evaded US capture for 10 years. I'd want to know everything about him from reconstructing his diet to his exercise regime. And you bet I would want to look at every organ, and see what diseases he may have had while he was on the lam. Find out whether he sought treatment. Try to determine where.

Hey, do we want to know if his various organs show signs of radiation exposure? Can we figure out what isotope? Might that same isotope be used to create a dirty bomb? Do his organs show signs of being exposed to toxins or chemicals that could be weaponized?

This is just low-hanging fruit that I can think of off the top of my head. I would bet the CIA has a lot of other interesting questions that they could answer...

"The guy evaded US capture for 10 years. I'd want to know everything about him...."

Assuming they killed him and dumped him in the drink, as claimed, it may be that they were less interested in finding out what he could tell them than in making sure he couldn't spill any sensitive beans about past operations in which he cooperated with the CIA and American forces. Maybe he had stuff on people that those people didn't want got by anybody else.

After all, it's obvious our government doesn't really give a damn about extinguishing Al Qaeda or learning what their plans are. Hell, Al Qaeda doesn't pose any real threat to the American mainland, and there's probably not much left of them at this point.

Al Qaeda's value is entirely as an all-purpose boogeyman that can be used to justify any military budget increases, any military expenditures and weapons procurements, and, most important, any outrages against our Constitution and civil liberties that those in office may choose to inflict.

This is not about protecting us from an outside enemy; this is about exerting greater and greater internal control over the American people while projecting perpetual military force externally, in search of new resources to plunder.

Absurd is thinking more than 2 people can keep a secret if they are both alive.

So your position is Seal team VI, after a black insertion into a semi-hostile country, killing or capturing the most wanted terrorist in the world, having their super secret stealth helicopter shot out from under them, fly back to their carrier base with said dead/captured terrorist, stash his corpse/person somewhere in the bowels of the ship, just happen to have a dead body for the ships doctors to examine(cause if you don't think he was examined I don't know what to say to you), then wrap the fake body up in a sheet and dump it overboard with no one, absolutely no one on the ship knowing? Seal team VI is good son, but only at one thing, going into the deep blue, killing whoever needs to be dead, and getting out without getting caught. This ain't a Mission Impossible episode.