July 18, 2011

“Pawlenty has always been the establishment in Minnesota and Bachmann has always been the renegade,” says University of Minnesota political scientist Larry Jacobs. “Pawlenty thought that she was kind of a crackpot. He would roll his eyes when her name came up.” Democrat Roger Moe — the former longtime majority leader of the state Senate who lost the 2002 gubernatorial race to Pawlenty — describes his rival as “the kind of guy you can have a beer with” despite their political differences. But Moe cannot resist chuckling: “I can just tell you — I know for sure on the inside of him—that Tim Pawlenty is just seething over Bachmann. I bet they have to lock him in a room some days when he reads about her.”

Those stray quotes could be complete garbage, or, if not garbage, totally about the 2 individuals Pawlenty and Bachmann, but I can't help hearing the eternal theme of male reacting to female: The woman does not know her place. When she speaks, I hear crazy.

Assuming this story is true, which is probably a rather large assumption, there are many other ways to interpret it than the one you chose. I don't know what to make of Bachmann, but so what if Pawlenty found her kind of annoying. That's not really a big deal.

Male Republican candidates fail to realize this is what Democrats and the MSM (BIRM) say about them every election cycle. So when they say this about Bachmann or Palin or whomever is next, they help their enemy's meme gain strength.

I very much doubt that any Minnesota GOP person cares much about what Jab's thinks:Lawrence R. Jacobs is the Walter F. and Joan Mondale Chair for Political Studies and Director of the Center for the Study of Politics and Governance in the Hubert H. Humphrey Institute and Department of Political Science at the University of Minnesota. He received his Ph.D. from Columbia University and B.A. from Oberlin College.Lawrence R. Jacobs research examines political representation – the nature and formation of public opinion, whether and how government responds to the public’s policy preferences and other evaluations, and the adaptation of government policy to the changing conditions and circumstances facing Americans. In 12 books and dozens of scholarly articles, Dr. Jacobs has investigated public deliberation and public attitudes toward inequality and social welfare policy; the disconnect of government officials from public policy preference and their efforts to compensate by crafting personality-based appeals; policy making by American presidents (including Barack Obama) and the impacts of institutional and political forces on their decisions; and the formulation and development of health care policy in the United States and other countries.His articles have been published in such outlets as the American Political Science Review, World Politics, Comparative Politics, and the New England Journal of Medicine. He recently co-led (with Theda Skocpol) a comprehensive review of the Obama administration’s policy record, Reaching for the New Deal: President Obama's Agenda and the Dynamics of U.S. Politics. His most recent books include Health Reform and American Politics (with Theda Skocpol, New York: Oxford University Press, 2010); Class War? What Americans Really Think about Economic Inequality (with Benjamin Page, Chicago: University of Chicago Press, 2009); The Unsustainable State (with Desmond King, Oxford University Press, 2009); Talking Together: Public Deliberation in America and the Search for Community (with Fay Lomax Cook and Michael Delli Carpini,University of Chicago Press, 2009); The Private Abuse of the Public Interest (with Lawrence Brown, University of Chicago Press, 2008).

The (black) guy does not know his place. When he speaks I hear crazy. Hillary was the junior U.S. Senator from the most progressive state in the Union when Barry was voting present in Illinois. I guess it is all a matter of perspective!

I would also suggest that there's an element of exasperation for Pawlenty. He chose the right-wing social agenda to co-opt the Republican primary vote in 2002, and yet Bachman is out-winging the wing man because she is a true believer. Pawlenty was very much a centrist legislator under Governor Carlson. (For example, he voted to add gays to the protections of the Minnesota Human Rights Act after Carlson lobbied him, and he voted for tax increases.) And this is how he gets repaid for his "loyalty" to the base??? More info at the link:http://www.minnpost.com/community_voices/2011/06/28/29522/tim_pawlenty_the_manufactured_candidate

It is well known that: 1) being a GOP conservative makes one into a dangerous and stupid hater of the poor and minorities, and 2)being a woman makes one into an emotionally driven servant that cannot think past her feelings to make executive decisions, unless a man who has a good mind helps her.

I have zero doubt that that attitude is part of a lot of the criticism against Bachmann (and Palin, and Herman Cain, if you sub race for sex). But I don't think that anything in that article really was enough for me to attribute that attitude to Pawlenty.

Assuming this story is true, which is probably a rather large assumption, there are many other ways to interpret it than the one you chose. I don't know what to make of Bachmann, but so what if Pawlenty found her kind of annoying. That's not really a big deal.

I’m curious why so many people are responding to this story as if it has any basis in fact. Roger Moe and Tim Pawlenty pretty much locked horns over every major policy issue when they were the leaders of the Minnesota Senate and House respectively during the Ventura administration before they ran against each other for governor. I’d think that they’d be the last two people in the State to say “let me tell you what I really think” about another member of their own party. The story rings as false as a wedding invitation from a Frey.

Pawlenty doesn't stand a chance. Way, way, WAY too milquetoasty. You see the pussified way he "went after" Romney and Romneycare in the debate? What a wimp! He doesn't inspire anybody. He doesn't have the personality to be inspirational.

Michelle meanwhile is the real deal. That's what everybody left of center including a lot of Rinos are scared of.

I would also suggest that there's an element of exasperation for Pawlenty. He chose the right-wing social agenda to co-opt the Republican primary vote in 2002

Utter nonsense. For one thing there was no Republican primary (other than a token fringe candidate who runs every four years) because Pawlenty won the endorsement at the convention and his main rival, Brian Sullivan, conceded and endorsed Tim Pawlenty. I was there for all thirteen ballots and the most socially conservative voters were pretty much for Brian Sullivan. During the convention, the only mention of social issues was a flier put out by Sullivan supporters blasting Pawlenty for his position on abortion (against it except in cases of rape, incest and to protect the life and health of the mother) which ended up backfiring when delegates realized that Pawlenty had the most palatable prolife position and Sullivan’s (against it even in cases of rape and incest) would make him unelectable in the general election.

Pawlenty ran pretty much on bread and butter economic issues as he’s doing now by going after government spending, calling for the repeal of unaffordable energy subsidies (including ethanol in Iowa), pushing for entitlement reform, supporting market-based health care reform and pushing for pro-growth economic policies.

As a Minnesota conservative with much sympathy towards many so-called Tea Party objectives, I would still much rather have Pawlenty be the face of MN conservative politics than Bachmann.

As would I. My doubts about Bachmann have as much to do with her lack of any executive experience and ability to sway people to adopt her agenda as her electability. The last time we elected a legislator with no executive experience or actual legislative accomplishments to the White House on the basis of their ability to appeal to their party’s base with speeches, we got the current president. I’d rather not repeat history and look for a candidate who has demonstrated their actual ability to govern.

My problem with Bachmann is that she has no executive experience. She is just as much of a crackpot as Obama to think that we should entrust running the government to someone with such a thin resume.I believe that we must show a united front to win. I liked Bachmann partnering with Congressman Steve King to bring the Tea Party agenda front and center. I believe that was her strength. She abandoned the Tea Party for her own political gain. That's an opportunist. And, she has lost my respect and any future financial contributions.I was never a Pawlenty fan but I would be upset with Bachmann's power play. She is not qualified. I am not a hypocrite. How can I defend Bachmann if I had the same objections to Obama.

Probably every state legislature has its right-wing back benchers, who speak out, make a lot of noise, and carry one right-wingy bill after another written by the various lobbyists, if their their district is safe. The bills don't have a chance in hell, but it doesn't matter. The left does the same thing. Our legislature barey functioned this year, due to all the wingy bills.

The leaders all know the game and get tired of it, I'm sure. More often than not, the back bencher is better known than the moderates who ask for little. It takes all types.

I don't go for flash in my candidates so I'm ok with Pawlenty's blandness.

I am ok with blandness so long as he is firm on what’s important. You don’t have to pound the table to make the right decisions. The question is can he make himself interesting enough to get elected. I think it’s still too soon to tell.

Bachmann on the other hand seems rather green to be running for President.

This isn't a male narrative. It's a liberal one. Palin put on seven league boots and went from the kitchen table to the governor's mansion to the national stage with a speed and dexterityis that associated more with rock stars than politicians. Point out the feminist who celebrates her rise and success and independence in making her own choices. Bachmann is a woman of considerable achievement, not just professionally, but in her personal life. Point out the feminist who celebrates her virtues. If Bachmann were a liberal married to a professor with barely concealed Marxist inclinations and who had had twenty three abortions while working her way through college as a stripper, Gloria Steinhem et al. would be telling us of her grit and determination......Successful, independent women can only be successful and independent if they are liberal. Hillary Clinton is considered the apogee of feminist success, and Michele Bachmann is a flake. By their works shall you know them.

Fundamentally, Pawlenty is not a person to tell you what he really thinks about anything controversial, and Bachmann is.

So they are not compatible personalities, but both are trying to make themselves appear less like opposites; Pawlenty that yes, he has principles and won't automatically go to dealmaking, and Bachmann that yes, she might consider making deals, at least sometimes.

Ann I'm going to get in trouble with you. When Sheila Jackson Lee, Cynthia McKinney, or Nancy Pelosi speak, I hear crazy. Nothing to do with them being female, but a lot to do with them being way round the bend bonkers.

Mike, they are crazy. Even a Lefty can make some sense once in a while, but when you have someone like SJL who once demanded of NOAA that they start naming hurricanes with "black" names (Latifah, etc.) or Debbie Wasserman Schultz ("we own this economy"), these women got elected because of their plumbing and pigmentation, and, in the case of Pelosi Galore, hubby and Daddy's money.

Shouting Thomas said...

Jesus, Althouse, when are you going to get it?

Most of us weren't born to upper middle class suburban status like you were.

The rest of us come from rock solid poverty.

No, most of us came from blue collar or lower white collar backgrounds. Mom and Dad worked their way up the ladder, but I don't think many of us came up from "rock solid poverty", so I don't think we really resent Althouse all that much.

The TNR article is crap. The author admits that he was trolling for a headline. He invented the antiBachmann spin out of thin air. As part of a spirited defense of his antiestablishment credentials, Pawlently simply commented that she was an "outsider." The supposed antiBachmann crap comes secondhand.

The MSM will spin Bachmann as crazy homophobic, blah, blah. They'll spin Pawlenty as a snoozefest, and if they can gin up some fake controversey among the conteders, they'll do that' too. Pawlenty hates Bachmann's guts, he called her a backbencher, he's jealous of her press, blah, blah.

Comparing resume's of Bachmann and Obama is pretty easy. She worked as a tax attorney (actually putting that law degree to work) and she and her husband have run their own small business. Being a community agitator and autobiographer (two volumes before you're 50 and you haven't done squat? Really?) is mighty thin, but his public pre-presidential record was even thinner, being a guy who voted "present" more often than not. That puts her head and shoulders above the experience-challenged Current Occupant of the WH. Personally, I like Michelle's instincts. She stands for freedom and liberty by default. Obama's instincts are 180 degrees out of phase with the history and traditions of this country.

Pawlenty was a Cap and Trade disciple back when no one knew the massive fraud that was designed to be.

Now he wants to be seen as the perfect candidate.That doesn't work for the GOP voters who tend to be angry at the massive frauds of Bush and Obama

Bachmann is a gutsy fighter who is far from perfect.

But she is not Tim Pawlenty. That is her claim to fame.

Bachmann is also not Romney and not Huntsman, as additional credentials.

Only the seasoned Palin can beat the newcomer Bachmann. The Perry on again, off again candidacy will not happen until Palin announces that she is not running, which will not happen, so Perry won't run.

That sure as heck must annoy the perfect professional politicians like Pawlenty.

It is not a man/woman issue...it is a conservative women/everyone else issue, and today that everyone is Pawlenty.

The feminist movement and Hillary's handelers would like you to think they are the supporters of women, that exists on one issue and one issue only: if you believe abortion is the answer.

Reality check: There are more conservative women in congress than Dems, Repub women drove and supported the ERA, not Dems; and the public beating of Palin and now Bachmann is driven by the far left feminists.

Conservative women like Palin/Bachmann have it all...and that just pisses off those lefty feminists (except Camille Paglia)that wanted to frame the women's rights issues as "against" men, pro abortion as the only smart choice, and neautering the sexes.

The amazing independent conservative women elected across our country and those working for conservative candidates is the number one reason there is a Tea Party and the 2010 election.

Garage, I have no idea how intelligent this woman actually is. Book-smart or street-smart, no clue. I would venture to say that nobody reaches that level of power without having something on the ball, but...damn...her unguarded comments simply do not bear out intelligence. She has made some seriously stupid statements over the past couple of years and, frankly, I don't want to destroy her, I just want someone less apparently stupid at the levers.

The Dali Lama might disagree. You know, that guy the White House snuck out the back by the garbage so the Chinese wouldn't get all huffy...

Buddhists are really good at not playing the victim card (or they should be).

As I recall Reagan very publicly wouldn't even meet with the Dalai Lama.

The Dalai Lama has a hard row to hoe. I'll bet he's not very often sorry for himself, no matter how badly he's treated. I think he probably has a very deep sorrow for others though. Of course I don't know that for sure.

She only lost the one that really matter...the one keeping her as speaker. Her foisted policy undid her. She tried to do as much damage as possible given what time she had. That's why you laud her, I suppose. But she's a has-been now. Harry Reid will follow her example.

Bachmann versus Obama, and Bachmann is the one who gets chided for being "green."

I chided Obama for being green as well. It didn’t exactly work out well. I don't see why we should jump in with another person of limited experience unless we have a damn good reason.

I haven’t made up my mind on Bachmann yet, but as with Palin, I would be a lot happier with her as a candidate if she had “two time governor” behind her name. (At least Palin has some executive experience.) I also get the impression that she's rather socially conservative, which isn't really my bag. I'm more concerned about fiscal issues.

I can't begin to tell you how many times I've been in meetings while I was a stockbroker/financial advisor or in a group of mostly men and when I made a comment or suggestion it was either ignored or dismissed...YET in the next breath when the very same words I used were said by one of the 'guys'.....suddenly it was an inspirational idea or statement.

W.T.F.?!?!? I just said that!

The men do not want to hear from the women in a business or political setting and in the case of Bachman, Palin etc., they marginalize the women. Stupid, crazy, fringe. They become misogynistic calling the women vile names. They become sexist making comments about body parts and making crude passes and statements. They try to infantilize the woman and treat her like a retarded child.

All if these reactions are out of fear. Fear of losing control and fear that the woman may actually be better at some things than the man.

Of course, not all men are this way. My husband certainly is not.

However, when there is a power situation or struggle in status, like in the workplace or politics, the gloves come off and the misogyny is palpable.

All the men who deny that this exists are fooling themselves and have never been on the receiving end of such treatment.

Oh please. Even if it were her job to unite the other side of the aisle, these aren't your father's Republicans we're talking about here. Where would you start with people that want to see Obama's birth certificate?

Moe is an old-line Northern Minnesota DFLer. Not very bright, either. Chvala is more impressive, which is really damning with faint praise.

Jacobs shares the "rent-a-pundit" stage with three other Minnesota academic types: David Schultz of Hamline, Stephen Schier of Carleton and Kathryn Pearson of the U. of M. The next original thought any of them offers will be the first one. You could find equally dull profs in the faculty lounges at, say, Carroll, Lawrence and UW-Milwaukee. Of the four, Jacobs has the best beard, which is how you can tell him from the others.

Bachmann is a controversial figure in Minnesota because she's really the only Republican politician that's ever had much success here without at least nodding to the conventional wisdom. She couldn't care less what the Star Tribune or the Twin Cities television stations say about her. That's her strength.

The DFL hates T-Paw for different reasons. He faced some really hostile legislatures during his second term and he stared them down. They'll never forgive him for that.

That may be too obscure for many here, who may not have read George R. R. Martin's A Storm of Swords...

Last week I noticed more than a few people dropping ASOIAF references and I through I’d throw one out to see who’d bite. I did the same at work referring to “words are wind” and “winter is coming” in reference to the debt ceiling negotiations but no one seems to catch on ;)

(BTW, I'm almost 900 pages into A Dance With Dragons.)

I picked up the audio book last week for my commute/cardio workout/insomnia and I’m about 23 hours into (about half-way). It’s pretty good except for the Bran perspective chapters (too Harry Potterish for my tastes).

Shanna, I spend time in Minnesota and know people there, including Democats.

As an example, the Mpls paper puts Bachmann-bashing stories on their web site about every other day. I think they do this just to drive traffic as the comment section goes nuts with vicious anti-Bachmann hatred.

"As an example, the Mpls paper puts Bachmann-bashing stories on their web site about every other day. I think they do this just to drive traffic as the comment section goes nuts with vicious anti-Bachmann hatred."

I've noticed the same thing. They never post anything about the Keith Ellisons and Al Frankens of the state. Bachmann has a unique talent for making Minnesotans not in her district unhinged.

I don't think it's bigotry. To be honest I get a bit of a crazy vibe from Bachmann. And I'm a Republican and I love Sarah Palin. Also a big fan of Rick Perry.

The rest of the Republican field doesn't excite me, it's more like hold my nose. I will vote for her--I will vote for any Republican over Obama--but when I see her or hear her I often have this thought: "too tightly wrapped."

Like when discussing the Weiner photo, instead of finding the humor in it, or thinking it a silly distraction, she was like, "ooo, gross."

I get an uptight vibe from her. Screaming in a bathroom, I totally buy that she did that.

I think Sarah Palin would have punched somebody who tried to pull that crap.

I read the first three but haven't started number four yet. I was a bit burned out (man those books are long!) and the 4th book had pretty bad reviews on Amazon. What did you think of that one?

I suspect that many of the negative reviews are from readers who are upset that (a) he took 6 years to write it and (b) that he broke up the POV characters between books 4 and 5 and book 4 focused on characters that weren’t as popular or interesting to some readers as the ones that are featured in book 5.

I started the series in May when AGOT premiered on HBO and read straight through and finished book 4 a couple of weeks ago so I don’t share the complaint about the six year gap in between books. I actually did like the intrigue about the Lannisters so I found Book 4 pretty enjoyable. I missed reading about Jon Snow, Tyrion and Davos (who weren’t in Book 4 but feature pretty heavily in Book 5) but Book 4 has some major reveals about how and why the events from the first three books got set in motion and by whom that I think you’re losing out on a pretty good payoff that continues in Book 5 if stop now.

I think Sarah Palin would have punched somebody who tried to pull that crap.

Heh. Like I said, I don't know what to make of Bachmann yet. Stories about screaming in the bathroom don't exactly give you that strong executive vibe, unfortunately. Not to say that makes her crazy or anything, but it's not good PR.

Wrong, phx. I never cared. But: stupid, fake issue - simple, straghtforward resolution. So simple and straightforward, in fact, that sooper-smart Dems Who Only Care About The Good Of The Country never thought of it.

book 4 focused on characters that weren’t as popular or interesting to some readers as the ones that are featured in book 5.

Yes, that’s what many of them said. Of course, since I kind of love Arya I also don’t like the idea of skipping her entirely for 200 pages in a row of Brienne. These books are kind of like soap operas to me in that you are just rushing through some characters to get to the ones you actually are interested in. (I don’t personally care that it took 6 years to write since I just started reading them this spring).

I started the series in May when AGOT premiered on HBO and read straight through and finished book 4 a couple of weeks ago so I don’t share the complaint about the six year gap in between books. I actually did like the intrigue about the Lannisters so I found Book 4 pretty enjoyable. I missed reading about Jon Snow, Tyrion and Davos (who weren’t in Book 4 but feature pretty heavily in Book 5) but Book 4 has some major reveals about how and why the events from the first three books got set in motion and by whom that I think you’re losing out on a pretty good payoff that continues in Book 5 if stop now.

Thanks for the review! I can do without Davos for sure but no Tyrion? What was the author thinking? I will get to it eventually, I just wasn’t in the right frame of mind to read it after I finished 1,2,&3.

I am almost through Dance of Dragons and it is most disappointing. After so many years and years of waiting you would think there would be a hint of resolution of some of the issues but it seems Mr. Martin is more interested in listing the foodstuffs that the characters are consuming.

Now it is true that an army travels on it's stomach and that amateurs talk about tactics and professionals talk about logistics but who wants to read shopping lists and descriptions of people traveling.

That sums up "Dance of Dragons." Everybody is traveling and nobody gets there.

but it seems Mr. Martin is more interested in listing the foodstuffs that the characters are consuming

I'm about halfway through (didn't have to wait years as I only started the series back in February) and I've noticed that as well. When he starts talking about what they're eating, I scan forward until something actually happens.

Again...why was there a scene in Dances where Jon Snow sends Sam and Gilly away from the Wall when that already happened in book 4? I have yet to find an answer for this.

I don't see/hear her as dumb. She's no policy wonk but I believe she has a good working knowledge of how to get a bill passed. There have been few if any thing she's pushed that I agree with. I see the "dumb" meme as a common attribution to someone way "on the other side" who can't see "the obvious".

PS We can't call Rep. Sheila Jackson "dumb" or "crazy"; that would be racist.

When you are writing a series as big as "Game of Thrones" you often end up repeating yourself. I just think if you take this long to write something then it should be really great.

I mean Harry Turtledove and SM Stirling and David Drake and Eric Flint all spit out books every year and they advance the story in increments as "Dance of Dragons" does but you can forgive that because you get a new one every year.

Even if it were her job to unite the other side of the aisle, these aren't your father's Republicans we're talking about here. Where would you start with people that want to see Obama's birth certificate?

Okay Garage--you got me dead to rights. I can't show you proof that Pelosi personally secured so many Obamacare waivers for her district. Then again, I can't prove that the Tooth Fairy was the one who got all those waivers for San Francisco either. But if I had to bet as between Pelosi and the Tooth Fairy, I'd put my lunch money down on Pelosi's nose.

And then since she's "kicked so many Republicans in the balls", well I might make that a knuckle sandwich on the old dingbat's nose.

Women in small politics is cute and empowering. House seat, Senate seat, council seat--we're all behind you, grrl. But stay away from the Governor's mansion or White House. Hilbot, Palin, Bachmann--all proof that the message that resonates with the American voter, the male answer to the black's race card (hi garage!), is, "That bitch is nuckin' futs." Put her in a place where she can deliberate and air her grievances but not lead. Women don't want issues resolved; they just want you to acknowledge their opinion. Perfect for the House. But God bless us if one manages to sneak into a position of power.

Pawlenty was very much a centrist legislator under Governor Carlson. (For example, he voted to add gays to the protections of the Minnesota Human Rights Act after Carlson lobbied him, and he voted for tax increases.)

I guess that makes Sarah Pain the moderate in the field ? She supported partner benefits for gays in Alaska.

Women in small politics is cute and empowering. House seat, Senate seat, council seat--we're all behind you, grrl. But stay away from the Governor's mansion or White House. Hilbot, Palin, Bachmann--all proof that the message that resonates with the American voter, the male answer to the black's race card (hi garage!), is, "That bitch is nuckin' futs." Put her in a place where she can deliberate and air her grievances but not lead. Women don't want issues resolved; they just want you to acknowledge their opinion. Perfect for the House. But God bless us if one manages to sneak into a position of power.

I’m honestly not sure if the reader is intending this to be an anti-Bachmann post or a parody of an anti-Bachmann post. From what I can tell, most of the criticism of or concerns about Representative Bachmann that have been expressed from the right have been that she really hasn’t demonstrated much in the way of leadership – no executive experience and no major legislation that she’s successfully navigated through either the Minnesota State Senate or Congress. So on that issue she would likely lose against Barack Obama in 2012 (in 2008 he wouldn’t have three and a half years as POTUS that he will in 2012) and if she were to win, would we wind up with our version of Barack Obama – someone elected based on their ability to deliver a speech but who doesn’t have the actual skills or experience to govern effectively?

Amelia said... I don't know how to twist myself into your mold Ann. When Michelle Bachmann speaks, I roll my eyes too. I'm a woman,a Minnesotan and a conservative - guess I have to add sexist to that list?

7/18/11 1:28 PM

If it comes down to Obama and Bachman who would you vote for?

GM: the birther business was started by democrats. They were the first to file the suits and it was Hilary's campaign that started it to begin with. Just like Gore in 88 with the Willie Horton matter. You are entitled to your opinions but not your facts. Anyone who supports Obama is in no postion to comment on other people as being crazy.

You know Obama kind of reminds me of Stannis Baratheon.Don’t you mean Joffrey? Both were basically handed leadership roles that they were unsuited for and surrounded themselves with supplicants who convinced them that they could do no wrong and were short tempered with anyone who dare to question their authority. Stannis was a hard man but he’s fundamentally fair and forthright in how he treats others.

I am sick of Bachmann. I am sick of Palin. It's not because they are women, either. I'm also sick of Gingrich, Ron Paul, and all the other potential Republican presidential candidates who, like Palin and Bachmann, simply have no business running for president because they don't have the requisite experience.

Don't you people see? Don't you get it? Bachmann and Palin and Paul and a handful of others are just like Obama. They don't have the necessary political experience to govern -- to compromise, to forge bipartisan majorities.

You people who are falling for the siren song of any of these people are going to be in for a sad, sorry surprise if your candidates ever win. Nothing's going to get done. It's going to be a repeat of Obama only from the viewpoint and mood of the right.

I think what the country needs right now is someone who can forge consensus on a new way forward out of this economic hell and steer us through a huge entitlement reform. Palin, Bachmann, Paul, Gingrich, the Godfather's guy -- none of those people are going to be able to pull that off. It's just going to be Obama Redux. Huge expectations by a giddy base followed by an inevitable realization after a couple years that it was all cult of personality and not real, serious leadership.

Should any of these get nominated, then would you vote for Obama instead or for the candidate of the right. Could any of them be any worse than Obama? Not that I can see. At least they have opinions they have developed and can discuss which is more than Zero can do.

Dick -- I am on record saying -- as people here like Trooper would already know -- that, of course, I will vote for the Republican. I voted for McCain for crying out loud. I voted for Dole.

But I am not the person who needs convincing. Moreover, though I do think that the candidates I have named will not beat Obama, that's not the point. I assume, arguendo, that they do beat Obama. My point is that they will be massive failures in exactly the same way that Obama has been a massive failure. They are all hat, no cattle. They cannot forge a consensus for a new way forward on a host of absolutely vital issues.

Tyrion Lannister would be a far better President then most current politicans. He put himself at risk to defend the kingdom, both on the field and in the halls of power. Our politicans desire personal power far more then they care about the health of the country.

Dick -- I am on record saying -- as people here like Trooper would already know -- that, of course, I will vote for the Republican. I voted for McCain for crying out loud. I voted for Dole.

Well I didn't vote for Dole. But unless the Republican candidate wants to turn the US government over to the Church of Scientology I will vote for any Republican. I don't see our present WH occupant or any of the powerful Democrats in congress doing anything regarding the deficit in the foreseeable future.

Bachmann is also not Romney and not Huntsman, as additional credentials.

Only the seasoned Palin can beat the newcomer Bachmann.========================Palin "seasoned"? 6 months on a oil and gas panel she quit.4 months on a bad campaign she said she "went rogue" on.Less than 2 years as governor of a small state of under 1 million people...then she quit.Zero Presidential primary experience.2 years hawking her media empire.

Seven: I think what the country needs right now is someone who can forge consensus on a new way forward out of this economic hell and steer us through a huge entitlement reform.

Me too.

I'm afraid Pawlenty isn't the guy you are looking for, however. My sense is that as governor, he didn't provide great leadership on fiscal issues. He found ways to get things done without raising state taxes (except on cigarettes) but during his terms, local property taxes went up. There was no leadership on fundamental restructuring of government spending during his two terms in office.

How do you know they cannot forge alliances. Sarah for one did exactly when she took on the Republican Party in Alaska. She forged the alliances and got rid of the crooks in the party which is exactly what she ran on. I see that most of the points she is making in her writings are what I would love to see done and based on past practices I see no reason why she cannot implement them. Romney has already proven that he can do things as he did in the Utah Olympics that he straightened out. I think you are not giving them a fair shake but just saying that they are all hat, no cattle with no real basis for saying that.

I think what the country needs right now is someone who can forge consensus on a new way forward out of this economic hell and steer us through a huge entitlement reform.

Is consensus possible?

I don't think most Americans even realize how big of a problem entitlements ARE. Both parties have devoted too much effort to lying about it over the years -- Democrats mostly, but Republicans too.

"A whole lot of you aren't ever going to get the Social Security and Medicare benefits you thought you'd paid for" is a bitter pill to swallow. Even if most of Congress wasn't fully prepared to demagogue on the issue of "betraying out promises to seniors" reform would be nigh-impossible.

What I suspect we really need isn't a candidate who can forge consensus, but a candidate who is willing to force change down the public's throat and pay the price for having done so.