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Re: Do you make your own frames? Please show me how!

I like having the wires trapped under a wedge and nailed down -- we can get quite hot weather here in the late spring and some of my friends have had trouble with foundation warping badly. Of course, if you cross-wire as I have started doing, this is much less of an issue.

Grooved top and bottom bars are faster, for sure. Only seven steps for the top bar that way (not counting cutting them from 2x6s and splitting them).

Lots of fun, an excuse to work out in the shop, which I like. Did 120 end bars the other night, the new bandsaw is working pretty well now that I've got new thrust bearings, filed out the throat plate so the blade doesn't drag on it, and "modified" the back top cover to allow the axle to move up enough to tension the blade.

Now I need to make a drill jig to drill the end bars, buy the eyelets to put in, and finish the top bars, then make an assembly jig and get frames put together -- I'll be needing nuc boxes by late March.

Re: Do you make your own frames? Please show me how!

I've enjoyed reading this thread, I have been contemplating making frames too. I have made dozens of bodies I guess tomorrow I'll be hacking up some scrap that I've saved for just such purpose! Good to see both sides of the conversation.

Re: Do you make your own frames? Please show me how!

I'm going to slowly transition over to narrow 1 1/4" frames in all my hives, and I'm going to make them myself until I can't stand it anymore. So I went out to the shop and started making a jig for cutting the end bar notches in the top bar. It's going to be time consuming at first, but I want to make jigs for doing all the cuts needed for the frame parts, in the end it should be a time saver not having to readjust the fence continuously. John

Re: Do you make your own frames? Please show me how!

Ben - My first comment is make a frame jig, as it keeps your hands away from the staples. Other comments ... Don't waste your time with plywood - it won't last. Mass-produce the profile of a part with the most detail to it, then slice them apart. This will save you more time than most other concepts. Make blocks in easily-managed sizes, mark the same side on each (same side as went against the gate or down on the tablesaw, etc.) Bounce flawed or non-conforming parts out of the production cycle as early as possible - further work on bad parts is an avoidable waste of time and wear on the machines. Glue and staple the joints - it really help[s if these frames are strong. I make mine non-standard, extra thick (5/8" side and bottom bars) as I get fewer staples blowing out the sides and VERY strong joints and frames. Laminate your blueprints and mark your master parts in bright pink or orange.

My other concern is - Are you building commercial frames or hobbyist frames? Most commercial guys are using wood frames with plastic foundation - no wedge strips.

Re: Do you make your own frames? Please show me how!

I do the top bar side cuts at one depth setting of the dado blade, then set it for the bottom cut and run them through again, one at a time. I don't think a sliding box for more than one frame saves much time on a 1/16" deep cut. No need to move the fence between cuts, and the last batch I ran through was 120 top bars. Doesn't take long.

I make top bars from 2x6 material -- run through the planer to get flat, parallel sides (just enough so they run on the fence well, no more), then cut to length and cut the 10 degree slanted cut on both sides of each end. Best to run a large pile of blanks. I then cut them lengthwise to width, then split them on the bandsaw. Next time, I'm going to cut out the part between the angled cuts with a dado blade, saves having bits fly out of the saw when cutting the dado.

The best way to get decent frames is to select yellow pine 2x6 or 2x8 or 2x10 boards, looking for minimal knots, as flat as possible, and whatever length gets you the best ones. You will always find some defects hidden in the interior -- make extras and do not hesitate to toss less than perfect parts as they arise. Much better to make a few extra top bars than have one that breaks when you try to remove it from the hive next year.

Design is up to you. I prefer, at the moment, wedge type top bars, but you can make whatever you want.

Re: Do you make your own frames? Please show me how!

jmgi.... You can use a miter saw if you have it. If you do, you will want to raise the table (clamp a 2 X 4 ) so the end of the top bar will cut at the point that the miter blade is widest when you bring it down.. You can also make a jig (to keep your fingers away from the blade) and cut on a table saw. Hope that makes sense.

Re: Do you make your own frames? Please show me how!

Cleo, having a hard time picturing what you mean, unless you are cutting the angled piece off the top bar completely, leaving a small part of the cut on the other side of where the end bar goes. I think I would rather do it with the miter saw than make a jig for the table saw. John

Re: Do you make your own frames? Please show me how!

jmgi..I'm having a hard time picturing it myself. Ha!! See if this will help. Run the first cut on the underside of the top bar (at each end) on a dado blade. (Same one used to make box joints.) Then use the miter saw to cut the slope by cutting from the end of the top bar. Since a miter saw cuts comming down, to make a straight cut, I have to extend a table out from the normal dado fence so the blade cuts at the widest point of the blade radial. At that point, the cut will be square.

Re: Do you make your own frames? Please show me how!

Tilt the table saw to 10 degrees, set the fence so that the slant is 3/8" at 3/8" from the end and run the end grain side down the fence with the length vertical. If you have a pile of 19" blocks ready to go, takes about 15 sec per side on my (slow) saw. I cut both sides because I'm going to cut the bars to width on the bandsaw, then split each slice, making two from each slice. I get 10 standard width top bars or 12 narrow top bars from each piece of 2x6, I think 12 and 14 or 16 from a 2x8, I don't remember.

Watch that you don't have any fingers near the end, obviously. At any rate, this is safer than attempting to cut the angle later unless you use a "boat", and then it's a hassle -- one cut on the 2x6 or 2x8 cuts five or six at the same time.

This is why I plane them all to have a big enough flat that's parallel on each side, so they slide down the fence square and I only have to set the band saw once to cut them all the same thickness.

I suppose if you had a shaper and wanted to make a cutter for it, you could cut a slot out with the correct angle top and bottom. Lots of ways to skin that cat.

The nice thing about cutting the blanks the way I do is that the fiddly stuff is all done when the piece is large and easy to handle safely.

Re: Do you make your own frames? Please show me how!

I saw a youtube where someone in eastern europe had made a drilling rig. To do them all at once. Baseilly It was two or there drill heads mounted up to a peice of steel with a rail. He took the finish frame pushed it against the drills. Work real nice. to the point I am thinking about building one.
David

Re: Do you make your own frames? Please show me how!

A gang drill would be nice, but way too much work for the few I make (compared to Kelley's, for instance).

Make a drill jig. Mine will be a piece of scrap long enough for the longest end bar I use with a pocket made of 3/4" scrap glued and nailed into an L shape. Over that goes a thin (3/8") piece of plywood or other thin wood, with holes very carefully drilled square and straight in the spots where they go in the end bars. Tuck a pair of end bars stacked on each other into the pocket, and use the holes in the thin piece on top to line up the drill. Zip, zip, zip, zip, two end bars drilled.

This way the wires will all be in the same plane and the holes will be straight. You can also use metal with proper drill bushings if you want to go to that much effort. It will last much longer and drill straighter, but requires metalworking equpiment to make.

You can drill all the different length end bars on the same jig, just make sure you have them aligned correctly when you put them in.

Actually spacing of the holes isn't a big deal, but they must be exactly on the centerline. Otherwise, when you embed the wires the foundation will be off to one side.

Re: Do you make your own frames? Please show me how!

Just a bit of FYI on drill bits. The standard twist drill bit is engineered to drill a hole three times the depth of it's diameter. So a 1/8th diameter drill bit should drill a 3/8 inch hole with no problem in a single pass. If you need to drill further than that you need to use some other drilling methods. In this case what is called "Pecking" You drill about 3/8th of an inch pull the bit back out of the hole let the sawdust clear out of the flutes and then drill again. If you do not you will be over heating your bit and causing damage. You will not always be able to see the damage but it will result in a drill bit that dulls prematurely, over heats and swells so it is actually drilling a slightly over size hole or will cause excessive tear out. not a huge deal for things like end bars but still nice to know.

Since 1 end bar is about 1/4 inch thick drilling one would be no problem. but stacking two puts you over that 3/8th depth by 1/8th inch. Most decent quality drill bits will still handle this fine. but if you start stacking them 4,5 or more thick you are going to have to pay attention to this issue. There are other drill bit designs such as auger bits or bits with deeper flutes that address this deeper hole in one pass issue.

Anyway I thought this might help some of you trying to get these made and drilling multiple end bars at once. Picking a better tool might help you get the results you are looking for.

Re: Do you make your own frames? Please show me how!

Richardson, smokepole, and Daniel Y - the holes in the sides are for wires. Plastic foundation in wood frames rocks!

If you are brain-bent on drilling, adding rivets, wiring, and letting the wax moths eat all your work, just make sure the holes line up with the slots in the bottom and top bars. I used to make a jig for that - it had nails that found the slots in the bottom bar and the wedge strip cut-out (rabbet) in the top bar from the inside of the frame, wrapped around the side bar and made a straight edge on the outside of the side bar for tracing the line. Another tool had marker stops to space the holes along the scribed lines. I'd then starter punch each resulting + mark and drill them.
That was when I was a newbie and had to ask things like, "Do the frames go in the long way or the short way?" (I never bought a box nor a frame - just made them all myself) Now I just drop a plastic and wax sheet into the frame and let them draw out the comb. ;-)

Daniel - people drill way deeper than that (3x the diameter) in wood (and quite accurately, thank you) all day long every day. Peck drilling is recommended when clearing the chips is needed, such as deep hole drilling steel, aluminum, and sometimes hardwood. Also, I'd suggest making your side bars thicker than 1/4". Your frames will stay more square, will last a lot longer, will take nails better, will have more gluing surface. Try 7/16" thick...I pull that off without trimming foundation most of the time.