I mean this in the least offensive way possible, but I've come across my fair share of individuals on the autism spectrum and it seems that some of them with the more mild cases are complete a-holes.

Usually, I hear people say, "Don't let it bother you, he's just autistic". Is that really a reason to not correct their behavior or call them out for it? It really frustrates me how relentlessly rude some of these people can be, and I feel like something needs to be done other than just giving them a free-pass to be d-bags because they have some sort of mental deficiency.

Am I in the wrong here? If so, then obviously I won't fight it. I just don't feel like the fact that they have mild autistism should justify them being allowed to be d-bags at times.

Also, while were at it, what's up with the enormous increase of autistic children these days? It seems like they are being born at higher rates now than ever before. Have there been any studies that show potential causes for this increase in recent decades?

At 12/10/2014 12:26:27 PM, Blade-of-Truth wrote:I mean this in the least offensive way possible, but I've come across my fair share of individuals on the autism spectrum and it seems that some of them with the more mild cases are complete a-holes.

Usually, I hear people say, "Don't let it bother you, he's just autistic". Is that really a reason to not correct their behavior or call them out for it? It really frustrates me how relentlessly rude some of these people can be, and I feel like something needs to be done other than just giving them a free-pass to be d-bags because they have some sort of mental deficiency.

Am I in the wrong here? If so, then obviously I won't fight it. I just don't feel like the fact that they have mild autistism should justify them being allowed to be d-bags at times.

Also, while were at it, what's up with the enormous increase of autistic children these days? It seems like they are being born at higher rates now than ever before. Have there been any studies that show potential causes for this increase in recent decades?

I don't think we should give them a free pass. Unless they are completely incapable of changing their behavior, which I do not think that they are, they should be held to the same standards as everyone else. If they want to be treated like everyone else they should be held to the same standards. It might take them longer or they might not be behaving that way on purpose but if it is bothering people like you then it should be changed. People use all sorts of excuses these days as crutches so that they don't have to work at being better people.

As for your last question it is one that scientists, psychologists and parents have been trying to tackle for a decade and the best answers we've come up with are fear-mongered, unsubstantiated claims ranging from TV to radio waves to GMOs to stuff being put in our water. No one knows but people are frantically searching for that very answer.

At 12/10/2014 12:26:27 PM, Blade-of-Truth wrote:I mean this in the least offensive way possible, but I've come across my fair share of individuals on the autism spectrum and it seems that some of them with the more mild cases are complete a-holes.

Usually, I hear people say, "Don't let it bother you, he's just autistic". Is that really a reason to not correct their behavior or call them out for it? It really frustrates me how relentlessly rude some of these people can be, and I feel like something needs to be done other than just giving them a free-pass to be d-bags because they have some sort of mental deficiency.

Am I in the wrong here? If so, then obviously I won't fight it. I just don't feel like the fact that they have mild autistism should justify them being allowed to be d-bags at times.

Also, while were at it, what's up with the enormous increase of autistic children these days? It seems like they are being born at higher rates now than ever before. Have there been any studies that show potential causes for this increase in recent decades?

I don't think we should give them a free pass. Unless they are completely incapable of changing their behavior, which I do not think that they are, they should be held to the same standards as everyone else. If they want to be treated like everyone else they should be held to the same standards. It might take them longer or they might not be behaving that way on purpose but if it is bothering people like you then it should be changed. People use all sorts of excuses these days as crutches so that they don't have to work at being better people.

Yeah, I think that's a good place to draw the line - whether they are capable of changing their behavior or not. It's really just the mild cases where the individuals are high-functioning enough to interact with others socially but poorly. By poorly, I'm solely referring to the inability to accept when they are wrong or are just downright rude to others. I've had several interactions with individuals like that, even here on DDO, and I just can't understand why no one sets out to correct them. I was worried that it was socially unacceptable because they have autism, but I believe the best course of action is to call them out on it and then proceed to correct them effectively somehow.

As for your last question it is one that scientists, psychologists and parents have been trying to tackle for a decade and the best answers we've come up with are fear-mongered, unsubstantiated claims ranging from TV to radio waves to GMOs to stuff being put in our water. No one knows but people are frantically searching for that very answer.

I'm familiar with the GMO theory and some water theories like fluoride, and it's pretty compelling stuff but not enough to sell me either. It's a real concern of mine though because it happens to seemingly normal parents.

At 12/10/2014 12:26:27 PM, Blade-of-Truth wrote:I mean this in the least offensive way possible, but I've come across my fair share of individuals on the autism spectrum and it seems that some of them with the more mild cases are complete a-holes.

Usually, I hear people say, "Don't let it bother you, he's just autistic". Is that really a reason to not correct their behavior or call them out for it? It really frustrates me how relentlessly rude some of these people can be, and I feel like something needs to be done other than just giving them a free-pass to be d-bags because they have some sort of mental deficiency.

Am I in the wrong here? If so, then obviously I won't fight it. I just don't feel like the fact that they have mild autistism should justify them being allowed to be d-bags at times.

Also, while were at it, what's up with the enormous increase of autistic children these days? It seems like they are being born at higher rates now than ever before. Have there been any studies that show potential causes for this increase in recent decades?

I don't think we should give them a free pass. Unless they are completely incapable of changing their behavior, which I do not think that they are, they should be held to the same standards as everyone else. If they want to be treated like everyone else they should be held to the same standards. It might take them longer or they might not be behaving that way on purpose but if it is bothering people like you then it should be changed. People use all sorts of excuses these days as crutches so that they don't have to work at being better people.

Yeah, I think that's a good place to draw the line - whether they are capable of changing their behavior or not. It's really just the mild cases where the individuals are high-functioning enough to interact with others socially but poorly. By poorly, I'm solely referring to the inability to accept when they are wrong or are just downright rude to others. I've had several interactions with individuals like that, even here on DDO, and I just can't understand why no one sets out to correct them. I was worried that it was socially unacceptable because they have autism, but I believe the best course of action is to call them out on it and then proceed to correct them effectively somehow.

As for your last question it is one that scientists, psychologists and parents have been trying to tackle for a decade and the best answers we've come up with are fear-mongered, unsubstantiated claims ranging from TV to radio waves to GMOs to stuff being put in our water. No one knows but people are frantically searching for that very answer.

I'm familiar with the GMO theory and some water theories like fluoride, and it's pretty compelling stuff but not enough to sell me either. It's a real concern of mine though because it happens to seemingly normal parents.

No one will correct them because correcting someone with a "disability" (though I would classify it more as an abnormality than a disability) is egrigious in today's politically correct society. You're supposed to treat anyone with any type of disadvantage with kid gloves lest you come off as "offensive".

And yeah I'm not sold on anything either and since there is no major consensus neither is the community at large. I'm starting to wonder if we've always been this way but now we just have a name for it. I find it hard to imagine that kids who grew up hundreds of years ago sleeping with animals and eating onions and potatoes three meals a day had a better mental development course than modern kids but I don't really know.

At 12/10/2014 12:26:27 PM, Blade-of-Truth wrote:I mean this in the least offensive way possible, but I've come across my fair share of individuals on the autism spectrum and it seems that some of them with the more mild cases are complete a-holes.

Usually, I hear people say, "Don't let it bother you, he's just autistic". Is that really a reason to not correct their behavior or call them out for it? It really frustrates me how relentlessly rude some of these people can be, and I feel like something needs to be done other than just giving them a free-pass to be d-bags because they have some sort of mental deficiency.

Am I in the wrong here? If so, then obviously I won't fight it. I just don't feel like the fact that they have mild autistism should justify them being allowed to be d-bags at times.

Also, while were at it, what's up with the enormous increase of autistic children these days? It seems like they are being born at higher rates now than ever before. Have there been any studies that show potential causes for this increase in recent decades?

You should correct they're behavior. I'm higher functioning on the spectrum but I still have my times. Now, why they act like that. People on the Autism spectrum specifically have trouble with communication skills. This includes any matter social interaction. So yes its not completely they're fault. Correct their behavior, because if you don't its like a kid or pet, learning it as a habit and thinking its alright. But if you do correct them, do so as you would a friend, because again social interaction is a difficulty.

Epsilon: There are so many stories where some brave hero decides to give their life to save the day, and because of their sacrifice, the good guys win, the survivors all cheer, and everybody lives happily ever after. But the hero... never gets to see that ending. They'll never know if their sacrifice actually made a difference. They'll never know if the day was really saved. In the end, they just have to have faith.

At 12/10/2014 12:26:27 PM, Blade-of-Truth wrote:I mean this in the least offensive way possible, but I've come across my fair share of individuals on the autism spectrum and it seems that some of them with the more mild cases are complete a-holes.

Usually, I hear people say, "Don't let it bother you, he's just autistic". Is that really a reason to not correct their behavior or call them out for it? It really frustrates me how relentlessly rude some of these people can be, and I feel like something needs to be done other than just giving them a free-pass to be d-bags because they have some sort of mental deficiency.

Am I in the wrong here? If so, then obviously I won't fight it. I just don't feel like the fact that they have mild autistism should justify them being allowed to be d-bags at times.

Also, while were at it, what's up with the enormous increase of autistic children these days? It seems like they are being born at higher rates now than ever before. Have there been any studies that show potential causes for this increase in recent decades?

I don't think we should give them a free pass. Unless they are completely incapable of changing their behavior, which I do not think that they are, they should be held to the same standards as everyone else. If they want to be treated like everyone else they should be held to the same standards. It might take them longer or they might not be behaving that way on purpose but if it is bothering people like you then it should be changed. People use all sorts of excuses these days as crutches so that they don't have to work at being better people.

Yeah, I think that's a good place to draw the line - whether they are capable of changing their behavior or not. It's really just the mild cases where the individuals are high-functioning enough to interact with others socially but poorly. By poorly, I'm solely referring to the inability to accept when they are wrong or are just downright rude to others. I've had several interactions with individuals like that, even here on DDO, and I just can't understand why no one sets out to correct them. I was worried that it was socially unacceptable because they have autism, but I believe the best course of action is to call them out on it and then proceed to correct them effectively somehow.

As for your last question it is one that scientists, psychologists and parents have been trying to tackle for a decade and the best answers we've come up with are fear-mongered, unsubstantiated claims ranging from TV to radio waves to GMOs to stuff being put in our water. No one knows but people are frantically searching for that very answer.

I'm familiar with the GMO theory and some water theories like fluoride, and it's pretty compelling stuff but not enough to sell me either. It's a real concern of mine though because it happens to seemingly normal parents.

No one will correct them because correcting someone with a "disability" (though I would classify it more as an abnormality than a disability) is egrigious in today's politically correct society. You're supposed to treat anyone with any type of disadvantage with kid gloves lest you come off as "offensive".

And yeah I'm not sold on anything either and since there is no major consensus neither is the community at large. I'm starting to wonder if we've always been this way but now we just have a name for it. I find it hard to imagine that kids who grew up hundreds of years ago sleeping with animals and eating onions and potatoes three meals a day had a better mental development course than modern kids but I don't really know.

That's a good point, and definitely something I've considered. For all I know there could have always been this amount and we've just lacked the technology/knowledge to properly diagnose it before. That could definitely be a factor, as could the rising population since there's more people giving birth now than ever before. I'm sure with the rise of national media/news and the internet we've been able to become more aware of these things.

At 12/10/2014 12:26:27 PM, Blade-of-Truth wrote:I mean this in the least offensive way possible, but I've come across my fair share of individuals on the autism spectrum and it seems that some of them with the more mild cases are complete a-holes.

Usually, I hear people say, "Don't let it bother you, he's just autistic". Is that really a reason to not correct their behavior or call them out for it? It really frustrates me how relentlessly rude some of these people can be, and I feel like something needs to be done other than just giving them a free-pass to be d-bags because they have some sort of mental deficiency.

Am I in the wrong here? If so, then obviously I won't fight it. I just don't feel like the fact that they have mild autistism should justify them being allowed to be d-bags at times.

Also, while were at it, what's up with the enormous increase of autistic children these days? It seems like they are being born at higher rates now than ever before. Have there been any studies that show potential causes for this increase in recent decades?

You should correct they're behavior. I'm higher functioning on the spectrum but I still have my times. Now, why they act like that. People on the Autism spectrum specifically have trouble with communication skills. This includes any matter social interaction. So yes its not completely they're fault. Correct their behavior, because if you don't its like a kid or pet, learning it as a habit and thinking its alright. But if you do correct them, do so as you would a friend, because again social interaction is a difficulty.

Hmm, I'd view you as extremely high functioning because I honestly wouldn't have suspected anything unless you said so. I also understand what you mean about it not fully being their fault, and that was one of the reasons I believe nobody really corrects them. I mean, you can't correct something if its not their fault right? So, I can understand that playing a role in this. I appreciate your opinion though! It seems like so far everyone agrees that we should somehow correct the behavior if it's causing problems.

At 12/10/2014 12:26:27 PM, Blade-of-Truth wrote:I mean this in the least offensive way possible, but I've come across my fair share of individuals on the autism spectrum and it seems that some of them with the more mild cases are complete a-holes.

Usually, I hear people say, "Don't let it bother you, he's just autistic". Is that really a reason to not correct their behavior or call them out for it? It really frustrates me how relentlessly rude some of these people can be, and I feel like something needs to be done other than just giving them a free-pass to be d-bags because they have some sort of mental deficiency.

Am I in the wrong here? If so, then obviously I won't fight it. I just don't feel like the fact that they have mild autistism should justify them being allowed to be d-bags at times.

Also, while were at it, what's up with the enormous increase of autistic children these days? It seems like they are being born at higher rates now than ever before. Have there been any studies that show potential causes for this increase in recent decades?

If a person appears to be mildly autistic such as myself, this doesn't mean that they may have a free be to do whatever and say whatever they want, however; you must consider that the cognitive impairment ability may be a bit low so for them to comprehend takes a bit longer to adjust to things and life in general. Calling them names though is a bit unnecessary, just pointing that out. I understand the concern or wonders of how these (myself) people may not think or respond or act as the rest of "normal" people would, but just do bear in mind that they (we) are as human as others have feelings and do have a mind but are a tad bit more slow. The only reason I'm even able to address this topic is because I recently just learned about it in depth.

Now to answer your other question, I am unsure as to how you've drawn the conclusion of the rate being raised up to more individuals being autistic, but even if that were the case, what concern is it really? Just asking in fairness :)

In my response I mean this in the most civil and polite manner. Just so that is clear as well.

The verb is real but the adjective is only a hypothetical ideal. ~ Freedo

At 12/10/2014 12:26:27 PM, Blade-of-Truth wrote:I mean this in the least offensive way possible, but I've come across my fair share of individuals on the autism spectrum and it seems that some of them with the more mild cases are complete a-holes.

Usually, I hear people say, "Don't let it bother you, he's just autistic". Is that really a reason to not correct their behavior or call them out for it? It really frustrates me how relentlessly rude some of these people can be, and I feel like something needs to be done other than just giving them a free-pass to be d-bags because they have some sort of mental deficiency.

Am I in the wrong here? If so, then obviously I won't fight it. I just don't feel like the fact that they have mild autistism should justify them being allowed to be d-bags at times.

Also, while were at it, what's up with the enormous increase of autistic children these days? It seems like they are being born at higher rates now than ever before. Have there been any studies that show potential causes for this increase in recent decades?

If a person appears to be mildly autistic such as myself, this doesn't mean that they may have a free be to do whatever and say whatever they want, however; you must consider that the cognitive impairment ability may be a bit low so for them to comprehend takes a bit longer to adjust to things and life in general.

Yeah, that's a good point and one that I've taken into consideration. Everyone who has commented here so far has agreed that if the corrections can be made, then they should.

Calling them names though is a bit unnecessary, just pointing that out.

I wasn't using it as a personal attack, but rather as a general observation. I suppose I could have exchanged the term 'douche' for 'really rude' but at the time of me posting this I was emotionally fueled by a recent interaction and found the term to be the most fitting. That's my own fault though, a temporary lapse into bluntness.

I understand the concern or wonders of how these (myself) people may not think or respond or act as the rest of "normal" people would, but just do bear in mind that they (we) are as human as others have feelings and do have a mind but are a tad bit more slow. The only reason I'm even able to address this topic is because I recently just learned about it in depth.

Now to answer your other question, I am unsure as to how you've drawn the conclusion of the rate being raised up to more individuals being autistic, but even if that were the case, what concern is it really? Just asking in fairness :)

I'm not sure what you mean. Basically, the birth rate for children who are somewhere on the autistic spectrum has seemingly increased for the past few decades, with more and more cases of autism occurring. I'm just curious as to why, you know? Like why are there so many more cases of autism now than ever before? That's what I meant by that question, I was just curious if a known cause has been discovered yet or not.

It doesn't seem like one has been discovered yet though.

In my response I mean this in the most civil and polite manner. Just so that is clear as well.

At 12/10/2014 12:26:27 PM, Blade-of-Truth wrote:I mean this in the least offensive way possible, but I've come across my fair share of individuals on the autism spectrum and it seems that some of them with the more mild cases are complete a-holes.

Usually, I hear people say, "Don't let it bother you, he's just autistic". Is that really a reason to not correct their behavior or call them out for it? It really frustrates me how relentlessly rude some of these people can be, and I feel like something needs to be done other than just giving them a free-pass to be d-bags because they have some sort of mental deficiency.

Am I in the wrong here? If so, then obviously I won't fight it. I just don't feel like the fact that they have mild autistism should justify them being allowed to be d-bags at times.

Also, while were at it, what's up with the enormous increase of autistic children these days? It seems like they are being born at higher rates now than ever before. Have there been any studies that show potential causes for this increase in recent decades?

This is hardly a problem just related to autistic people. In fact what happens more often is that neurotypical kids bully children with autism (as they make easy targets) and cause them to have meltdowns. Most autistic children are kind untill someone else comes along and forces them into stressful situations. Long story short if you dont want autistic kids to be mean to you then you should work on stopping the bullying against them.In regards to your other question: the rate of kids with autism has not increased but our understanding of it has. More kids are being diagnosed with autism as we learn more about it and have more effective ways of diagnosing it.http://www.forbes.com...http://healthland.time.com...

At 12/10/2014 12:26:27 PM, Blade-of-Truth wrote:I mean this in the least offensive way possible, but I've come across my fair share of individuals on the autism spectrum and it seems that some of them with the more mild cases are complete a-holes.

Usually, I hear people say, "Don't let it bother you, he's just autistic". Is that really a reason to not correct their behavior or call them out for it? It really frustrates me how relentlessly rude some of these people can be, and I feel like something needs to be done other than just giving them a free-pass to be d-bags because they have some sort of mental deficiency.

Am I in the wrong here? If so, then obviously I won't fight it. I just don't feel like the fact that they have mild autistism should justify them being allowed to be d-bags at times.

Also, while were at it, what's up with the enormous increase of autistic children these days? It seems like they are being born at higher rates now than ever before. Have there been any studies that show potential causes for this increase in recent decades?

This is hardly a problem just related to autistic people. In fact what happens more often is that neurotypical kids bully children with autism (as they make easy targets) and cause them to have meltdowns. Most autistic children are kind untill someone else comes along and forces them into stressful situations. Long story short if you dont want autistic kids to be mean to you then you should work on stopping the bullying against them.In regards to your other question: the rate of kids with autism has not increased but our understanding of it has. More kids are being diagnosed with autism as we learn more about it and have more effective ways of diagnosing it.http://www.forbes.com...http://healthland.time.com...

Oh good, you touched base on what I was about to address to him concerning the rating. :)

The verb is real but the adjective is only a hypothetical ideal. ~ Freedo

At 12/10/2014 12:26:27 PM, Blade-of-Truth wrote:I mean this in the least offensive way possible, but I've come across my fair share of individuals on the autism spectrum and it seems that some of them with the more mild cases are complete a-holes.

Usually, I hear people say, "Don't let it bother you, he's just autistic". Is that really a reason to not correct their behavior or call them out for it? It really frustrates me how relentlessly rude some of these people can be, and I feel like something needs to be done other than just giving them a free-pass to be d-bags because they have some sort of mental deficiency.

Am I in the wrong here? If so, then obviously I won't fight it. I just don't feel like the fact that they have mild autistism should justify them being allowed to be d-bags at times.

Also, while were at it, what's up with the enormous increase of autistic children these days? It seems like they are being born at higher rates now than ever before. Have there been any studies that show potential causes for this increase in recent decades?

This is hardly a problem just related to autistic people. In fact what happens more often is that neurotypical kids bully children with autism (as they make easy targets) and cause them to have meltdowns. Most autistic children are kind untill someone else comes along and forces them into stressful situations. Long story short if you dont want autistic kids to be mean to you then you should work on stopping the bullying against them.

So, you are saying that everytime someone with autism acts incredibly rude it's because they were previously bullied? That seems like a factor, but not the entire cause. Futhermore, are you saying that they can't be corrected if acting in such a way? I think that a multitude of actions should be taken to correct this issue, but attempting to stop the bullying seems to only cover one potential cause, not all of them.

In regards to your other question: the rate of kids with autism has not increased but our understanding of it has. More kids are being diagnosed with autism as we learn more about it and have more effective ways of diagnosing it.http://www.forbes.com...http://healthland.time.com...

Okay, I suspected that played a role in the increased numbers. I'd still like to know what the cause is for this autism. As it's still pretty concerning that such children can be be born from seemingly healthy parents.

At 12/10/2014 12:26:27 PM, Blade-of-Truth wrote:I mean this in the least offensive way possible, but I've come across my fair share of individuals on the autism spectrum and it seems that some of them with the more mild cases are complete a-holes.

Just because I'm a complete @sshole, it doesn't mean that I represent everyone who's on the spectrum. ;) Lol

Usually, I hear people say, "Don't let it bother you, he's just autistic". Is that really a reason to not correct their behavior or call them out for it? It really frustrates me how relentlessly rude some of these people can be, and I feel like something needs to be done other than just giving them a free-pass to be d-bags because they have some sort of mental deficiency.

Just like with any person, this really comes down to the motivations and intentions of the person you're referring to. I can tell you that I struggled more than some people did and even the most basic social interactions still sometimes require great conscious effort for me.

"The corresponding facial expression and body language for the appropriate emotional response to what that person said is...." "If I use this tone of voice people will think that I'm being phony or unsympathetic...." "People really aren't interested in hearing me explain every detail, I have to be concise in my conversation...." "People might find this action to be uncomfortable or inappropriate..." "People might find my wording to be confrontational or accusatory..." "It is incredibly rude to make that statement, even if it is completely true...." "Just because I'm passionate about this subject, it doesn't mean that people want a lecture...." "I haven't known this person long enough to be that intensely personal without making them uncomfortable...." "I'm not giving the other person a chance to talk and I need to show more interest in what they have to say...."

....etc. etc. etc. These are a small set of examples of things constantly going through my mind when I have to engage other people in real life. I've come to accept, to a degree, that the reality of my complete and utter social idiocy means that most people won't like me very much and I won't ever have an over-abundance of friends any time soon. If someone were going to put up a definition of "d-bag interactions", my picture could very well be that definition with anecdotes of my life being the examples. But, I really... really....REALLY can't tell you how helpful it would have been to have people tell me when I was being an @ss and explained to me exactly how that is (rather than simply insulting me and leaving it at that) so that I could have fixed it and learned from it. I've finally learned a great deal about my situation and general social interaction at this point in my life but the process could've been made a hell of a lot easier, that's for sure. Now I'm not nearly as socially retarded as I was in the past and there are a number of times that I know better than some people about some things, in fact, sometimes having intense struggles in a certain area can make you even more aware than many people when you finally are forced to overcome it.

Now, this doesn't imply that people with autism aren't @ssholes on purpose at times, either. They are jerks just as much as anyone and deserve to be called out on it. People always need to be held responsible for their intentionally bad behavior. The main issue here is whether the words/actions stem from an unintentional lack of social awareness or from intentionally insulting behavior. Realize that some of the most basic and obvious social etiquette can sometimes be truly baffling to some autistic people. Either way, the person deserves to be made aware of how their actions make you feel. If you can't tell whether it is intentional by the words/actions themselves (which can be difficult with autistic people), then you might be able to tell from their reaction when you point it out. If you say,"You do realize that it was REALLY rude and insulting when you did/said this?..." and they respond with,"Oh wow, I'm sorry! I REALLY didn't intend that. I'm SO sorry!" or if they instead respond with,"Well, you made me fvcking angry. I hope it hurts, b*tch!", It would make it obvious which is which (lol). But seriously, the key here is whether or not there is any remorse. Nonetheless, even if a person is autistic, you still have every right to correct them and expect improvement in their behaviors. @sshole behavior is never really acceptable, it's just that some people have to actually work at learning how to not be an @sshole by accident, no matter how much they really don't want to be. Also (just like with anyone) you might also have to actually consider whether or not you were an @sshole to them first, of course.

Am I in the wrong here? If so, then obviously I won't fight it. I just don't feel like the fact that they have mild autistism should justify them being allowed to be d-bags at times.

Your reaction determines whether you are in the wrong or not. You always have every right to expect to be treated well. But if the person is really sorry about what they did, then you might have to consider whether you are being the d-bag if you don't forgive them and help them not to do it again in the future. You don't have to love them, you don't have to be their best friend, you definitely don't have to put up with any of their sh*t, you most DEFINITELY shouldn't tolerate a lack of remorse for truly @sshole behavior, but if they're open to it then you should at least attempt to help them learn appropriate social interaction by pointing out that they insulted you and how they did so.

Also, while were at it, what's up with the enormous increase of autistic children these days? It seems like they are being born at higher rates now than ever before. Have there been any studies that show potential causes for this increase in recent decades?

I probably don't know enough about this to give you any useful answers.

I would *personally* think that although there is an increase in our ability to diagnose these things (which would definitely give a misleading impression of an increase in the disorder), it would also be a bit naive to assume that it is not just as likely that the numbers have indeed changed because of any number of factors in reality since we don't really have accurate records of its history (regardless of our current ability to diagnose). For instance, we now know about some of the effects of smoking and drinking alcohol during pregnancy and the fact that we can diagnose far more of the effects than ever before doesn't make the smoking and alcohol any less the actual cause. It also doesn't change the fact that some babies would not have had their health affected in certain ways had their parents chosen not to smoke or drink. The ability to diagnose autism doesn't necessarily mean that it isn't subject to other influences or that other things cannot make it worse or possibly cause it in the first place. My understanding is that we simply don't know.

Blade of truth could you give examples of such behaviour? from there we may be able to give you a better answer.

My understanding of this condition is that someone with autism can have a different outlook on things than normal and they may be completely unaware of what is regarded as "normal behaviour" e.g. social ettiquttes. Even if aware they may find it difficult to conform to them. Plus they can find it difficult to understand certain things e.g. body language, hints etc.

So talking or conversing with an autustic person can be like meeting someone from a completely different culture i.e. their social ettiquttes and understanding may be completely different from yours.

For example in one culture it may be the norm for a guest to refuse any offer of food. That's just the social norm perhaps to show modesty. Now someone who is autistic when offered food may directly say yes and consider themselves as being honest. To the person offering the food they may come across as rude.

With regard to more autistic people now than before I think it's probably due to the fact it's checked for now and checked more accurately and in the past wasn't checked so much. For example I myself may be autistic but when I used to go to school it was not something that was checked for. I was checked for various things from my hearing to some other tests because I didn't quite fit in. In the end probably concluded as "normal".

Blade of truth could you give examples of such behavior? from there we may be able to give you a better answer.

My understanding of this condition is that someone with autism can have a different outlook on things than normal and they may be completely unaware of what is regarded as "normal behavior" e.g. social etiquette. Even if aware they may find it difficult to conform to them. Plus they can find it difficult to understand certain things e.g. body language, hints etc.

So talking or conversing with an autistic person can be like meeting someone from a completely different culture i.e. their social etiquette and understanding may be completely different from yours.

For example in one culture it may be the norm for a guest to refuse any offer of food. That's just the social norm perhaps to show modesty. Now someone who is autistic when offered food may directly say yes and consider themselves as being honest. To the person offering the food they may come across as rude.

With regard to more autistic people now than before I think it's probably due to the fact it's checked for now and checked more accurately and in the past wasn't checked so much. For example I myself may be autistic but when I used to go to school it was not something that was checked for. I was checked for various things from my hearing to some other tests because I didn't quite fit in. In the end probably concluded as "normal".

At 12/10/2014 12:26:27 PM, Blade-of-Truth wrote:I mean this in the least offensive way possible, but I've come across my fair share of individuals on the autism spectrum and it seems that some of them with the more mild cases are complete a-holes.

Just because I'm a complete @sshole, it doesn't mean that I represent everyone who's on the spectrum. ;) Lol

Lol, you were the last person on my mind when I posted this. I honestly wouldn't have even guessed that you were autistic. And you're def not an a-hole, at-least not to me!

Usually, I hear people say, "Don't let it bother you, he's just autistic". Is that really a reason to not correct their behavior or call them out for it? It really frustrates me how relentlessly rude some of these people can be, and I feel like something needs to be done other than just giving them a free-pass to be d-bags because they have some sort of mental deficiency.

Just like with any person, this really comes down to the motivations and intentions of the person you're referring to. I can tell you that I struggled more than some people did and even the most basic social interactions still sometimes require great conscious effort for me.

Yeah, that's a reasonable assessment. I'd agree that it boils down to the motivations and intent.

"The corresponding facial expression and body language for the appropriate emotional response to what that person said is...." "If I use this tone of voice people will think that I'm being phony or unsympathetic...." "People really aren't interested in hearing me explain every detail, I have to be concise in my conversation...." "People might find this action to be uncomfortable or inappropriate..." "People might find my wording to be confrontational or accusatory..." "It is incredibly rude to make that statement, even if it is completely true...." "Just because I'm passionate about this subject, it doesn't mean that people want a lecture...." "I haven't known this person long enough to be that intensely personal without making them uncomfortable...." "I'm not giving the other person a chance to talk and I need to show more interest in what they have to say...."

....etc. etc. etc. These are a small set of examples of things constantly going through my mind when I have to engage other people in real life. I've come to accept, to a degree, that the reality of my complete and utter social idiocy means that most people won't like me very much and I won't ever have an over-abundance of friends any time soon. If someone were going to put up a definition of "d-bag interactions", my picture could very well be that definition with anecdotes of my life being the examples. But, I really... really....REALLY can't tell you how helpful it would have been to have people tell me when I was being an @ss and explained to me exactly how that is (rather than simply insulting me and leaving it at that) so that I could have fixed it and learned from it. I've finally learned a great deal about my situation and general social interaction at this point in my life but the process could've been made a hell of a lot easier, that's for sure. Now I'm not nearly as socially retarded as I was in the past and there are a number of times that I know better than some people about some things, in fact, sometimes having intense struggles in a certain area can make you even more aware than many people when you finally are forced to overcome it.

That's a very interesting perspective, and I really appreciate you sharing it! In your opinion, what would be the best approach for someone to tell you if you were stepping over the line? Literally everyone who's posted in this thread has agreed that we shouldn't let autism be an excuse for not telling someone if they are being rude or an azz. So, in your opinion, what would be the best approach?

Now, this doesn't imply that people with autism aren't @ssholes on purpose at times, either. They are jerks just as much as anyone and deserve to be called out on it. People always need to be held responsible for their intentionally bad behavior. The main issue here is whether the words/actions stem from an unintentional lack of social awareness or from intentionally insulting behavior. Realize that some of the most basic and obvious social etiquette can sometimes be truly baffling to some autistic people. Either way, the person deserves to be made aware of how their actions make you feel. If you can't tell whether it is intentional by the words/actions themselves (which can be difficult with autistic people), then you might be able to tell from their reaction when you point it out. If you say,"You do realize that it was REALLY rude and insulting when you did/said this?..." and they respond with,"Oh wow, I'm sorry! I REALLY didn't intend that. I'm SO sorry!" or if they instead respond with,"Well, you made me fvcking angry. I hope it hurts, b*tch!", It would make it obvious which is which (lol). But seriously, the key here is whether or not there is any remorse. Nonetheless, even if a person is autistic, you still have every right to correct them and expect improvement in their behaviors. @sshole behavior is never really acceptable, it's just that some people have to actually work at learning how to not be an @sshole by accident, no matter how much they really don't want to be. Also (just like with anyone) you might also have to actually consider whether or not you were an @sshole to them first, of course.

Am I in the wrong here? If so, then obviously I won't fight it. I just don't feel like the fact that they have mild autistism should justify them being allowed to be d-bags at times.

Your reaction determines whether you are in the wrong or not. You always have every right to expect to be treated well. But if the person is really sorry about what they did, then you might have to consider whether you are being the d-bag if you don't forgive them and help them not to do it again in the future. You don't have to love them, you don't have to be their best friend, you definitely don't have to put up with any of their sh*t, you most DEFINITELY shouldn't tolerate a lack of remorse for truly @sshole behavior, but if they're open to it then you should at least attempt to help them learn appropriate social interaction by pointing out that they insulted you and how they did so.

Also, while were at it, what's up with the enormous increase of autistic children these days? It seems like they are being born at higher rates now than ever before. Have there been any studies that show potential causes for this increase in recent decades?

I probably don't know enough about this to give you any useful answers.

I would *personally* think that although there is an increase in our ability to diagnose these things (which would definitely give a misleading impression of an increase in the disorder), it would also be a bit naive to assume that it is not just as likely that the numbers have indeed changed because of any number of factors in reality since we don't really have accurate records of its history (regardless of our current ability to diagnose). The ability to diagnose autism doesn't necessarily mean that it isn't subject to other influences or that other things cannot make it worse or possibly cause it in the first place. My understanding is that we simply don't know.

I fully agree. I believe that a major factor would be the increase in technology regarding diagnosis and awareness. It just baffles me how these kids can be born to normal parents... somewhat concerning if I can be completely honest.

Lol, you were the last person on my mind when I posted this. I honestly wouldn't have even guessed that you were autistic. And you're def not an a-hole, at-least not to me!

Yeah, having autism sucks @ss sometimes. In other ways it has actually been a benefit.

Yeah, that's a reasonable assessment. I'd agree that it boils down to the motivations and intent.

That's a very interesting perspective, and I really appreciate you sharing it! In your opinion, what would be the best approach for someone to tell you if you were stepping over the line? Literally everyone who's posted in this thread has agreed that we shouldn't let autism be an excuse for not telling someone if they are being rude or an azz. So, in your opinion, what would be the best approach?

I can't speak for absolutely everyone, but I personally really appreciate as much directness as possible without being too insulting. If we were talking in real life and I had done something really offensive, I would prefer you just said it outright and told me exactly how I had offended you. This is especially true when something has an implied meaning since autistic people have even more trouble with picking up on the implications of social interaction.

For instance, lets say you came up to an autistic person and you where feeling depressed. They didn't pick up on your emotional cues that demonstrated how you were feeling and seemed completely unaware to your emotional state or that anything was wrong. You then say "I really feel like killing myself right now" in order to try and make them aware (although you're not actually suicidal). They then respond with,"Well, that would be really stupid!" You could then respond with,"That was really rude. I'm feeling really upset right now. What you said strongly implies a lack of concern over how I'm feeling or why I would make that statement. You also didn't even notice that I was depressed since I've been expressing it in various ways since I came in the room. I really need to talk to someone about it."

If they express some kind of remorse or desire to fix the problem or immediately start trying to address your upset feelings, it was probably unintentional. If they don't, then they were probably intentionally being an @ss. You also shouldn't get TOO offended if they ask obvious questions like,"When did you express that you were upset? How could you actually tell me that before you said anything? What various ways did you express it before now?" or if they made statements that express strange thinking like,"I thought that you were just joking when you said that. I didn't think you were actually suicidal and I really hope you don't actually kill yourself." or "You didn't actually say you were upset. People "sigh" all the time when they're bored or just going through their day. How am I supposed to know the difference?"

There are also many autistic people that are unaware of their own autism. Autistic people really don't have enough social awareness to even know that they're doing something wrong. A lot of the time you can only do your best to make them aware. The problem is that most of them really need a very special kind of help and you can't actually substitute for that without a lot of effort and dedication (and a deep understanding of autism). You shouldn't let them get away with being outright rude, though, because they can't learn unless people start pointing it out to them. They can never learn until they first realize that they have a problem and then start learning how to actually be social.

I fully agree. I believe that a major factor would be the increase in technology regarding diagnosis and awareness. It just baffles me how these kids can be born to normal parents... somewhat concerning if I can be completely honest.

At 12/10/2014 12:26:27 PM, Blade-of-Truth wrote:I mean this in the least offensive way possible, but I've come across my fair share of individuals on the autism spectrum and it seems that some of them with the more mild cases are complete a-holes.

Usually, I hear people say, "Don't let it bother you, he's just autistic". Is that really a reason to not correct their behavior or call them out for it? It really frustrates me how relentlessly rude some of these people can be, and I feel like something needs to be done other than just giving them a free-pass to be d-bags because they have some sort of mental deficiency.

Am I in the wrong here? If so, then obviously I won't fight it. I just don't feel like the fact that they have mild autistism should justify them being allowed to be d-bags at times.

Also, while were at it, what's up with the enormous increase of autistic children these days? It seems like they are being born at higher rates now than ever before. Have there been any studies that show potential causes for this increase in recent decades?

There is something called a sympathizing quotient, people like me would probably be at number 5 (seeing how I'm an INTJ and rather blunt and cannot take cues) and the normal for males is around 4.

Autistic people are ranked at 6.5+ which means that they are obsessed with a system of recurring patterns but cannot get social cues. Its like if I take you to Pakistan, your demeanor may often be taken as offensive simply because you are not aware how society functions in this place.

Just like that autistic people don't get whats "right" to say and whats "wrong". They cannot comprehend the difference between two social norms and/or what people are thinking.

The above should give you an idea why one cannot blame an autistic for their actions. Though autism has its variations, Marie for example is perfectly sane, and should be able to pick up most social cues.

My cousin for example is at 9. He will ask you the same question ten times, he will ask you what you are feeling because he wont be able to tell. So thus there is a spectrum.

Most people below 7 can understand about half the cues, and can practice to be better and more "social". Though yes, autism does justify being a douche.

At 12/13/2014 9:04:25 PM, sadolite wrote:"Does having Autism justify being a douche?" Anything justifies being a douche in a society that is taught that everyone is a victim.

Does this sum it up?

"Our culture peculiarly honors the act of blaming, which it takes as the sign of virtue and intellect."

WILL NOT BE REMOVED UNTIL:
#1. I have met 10 people worth discussing with on DDO who are not interested in ideological or romantic visions of the world we all live in.
#2. 10 people admit they have no interest in any one else's opinion other than their own.
#3. 10 people admit they are products of their environment and their ideas derive from said environment rather than doing any serious critical thinking and search for answers themselves.

At 12/13/2014 9:04:25 PM, sadolite wrote:"Does having Autism justify being a douche?" Anything justifies being a douche in a society that is taught that everyone is a victim.

Does this sum it up?

"Our culture peculiarly honors the act of blaming, which it takes as the sign of virtue and intellect."

Ya, it pretty much does sum it up. Look at college students and their student loans. They willfully sign an agreement to borrow a vast sum of money with no prospect of paying it back, then claim they are a victim because their grand delusion of a college education is a 100% guarantee that they will get some $100,000 a year job to pay it back. It doesn't happen and guess what? It,s my fault or it's society's fault or it's the govt's fault. They were bamboozled, tricked, lied to. But there as plain as day is their signature agreeing to all the terms and conditions.

It's not your views that divide us, it's what you think my views should be that divides us.

If you think I will give up my rights and forsake social etiquette to make you "FEEL" better you are sadly mistaken

If liberal democrats would just stop shooting people gun violence would drop by 90%

Ya, it pretty much does sum it up. Look at college students and their student loans. They willfully sign an agreement to borrow a vast sum of money with no prospect of paying it back, then claim they are a victim because their grand delusion of a college education is a 100% guarantee that they will get some $100,000 a year job to pay it back. It doesn't happen and guess what? It,s my fault or it's society's fault or it's the govt's fault. They were bamboozled, tricked, lied to. But there as plain as day is their signature agreeing to all the terms and conditions.

I have noticed that with college students. Do you think this phenomena can be reversed? If so, how?

My observation, I see America for what it is in practice. Bill Gates is rich because he offers us all something we want. He is happy when he receives money, I am happy when I buy Microsoft products. We both are are happy. A poor person is poor because he gives us nothing we want but he may give us misery. He is not happy, he offers nothing that makes me happy either. It would seem, in America, success is inherently based on how others see you and what you are willing to offer them. What do you think?

WILL NOT BE REMOVED UNTIL:
#1. I have met 10 people worth discussing with on DDO who are not interested in ideological or romantic visions of the world we all live in.
#2. 10 people admit they have no interest in any one else's opinion other than their own.
#3. 10 people admit they are products of their environment and their ideas derive from said environment rather than doing any serious critical thinking and search for answers themselves.

At 12/10/2014 12:26:27 PM, Blade-of-Truth wrote:I mean this in the least offensive way possible, but I've come across my fair share of individuals on the autism spectrum and it seems that some of them with the more mild cases are complete a-holes.

It depends. Aspergers is now classified as "on the spectrum," but not all incidence of Aspergers syndrome are equal. I have ethical, and other concerns with even considering Aspergers a disorder, but that's another conversation for another day.

As to the question of whether being on the spectrum justifies being a douche, the answer is no. But, it may excuse it if the person who is on the spectrum is a "douche" and can not help it.

Most people with Aspergers *can* learn to behave like normal people, which is why having Aspergers is no excuse for antisocial behavior -but there are some autistic people (on other places on the spectrum) that genuinely have no control over their inability to recognize social cues, for example.

tl;dr only those who are a douche and can do something about it are culpable for it, and someone on the spectrum may or may not be able to do something about it.

Ya, it pretty much does sum it up. Look at college students and their student loans. They willfully sign an agreement to borrow a vast sum of money with no prospect of paying it back, then claim they are a victim because their grand delusion of a college education is a 100% guarantee that they will get some $100,000 a year job to pay it back. It doesn't happen and guess what? It,s my fault or it's society's fault or it's the govt's fault. They were bamboozled, tricked, lied to. But there as plain as day is their signature agreeing to all the terms and conditions.

I have noticed that with college students. Do you think this phenomena can be reversed? If so, how?

My observation, I see America for what it is in practice. Bill Gates is rich because he offers us all something we want. He is happy when he receives money, I am happy when I buy Microsoft products. We both are are happy. A poor person is poor because he gives us nothing we want but he may give us misery. He is not happy, he offers nothing that makes me happy either. It would seem, in America, success is inherently based on how others see you and what you are willing to offer them. What do you think?

The only way to reverse the victimhood status is to teach otherwise. People need to be taught they are on their own and there is no solution to anything except what they make of their life. People need to be taught it's not how you react to the bad things in life, it's how you deal with them that helps you conquer them. Looking to govt to solve your problems is a dead end road that ends in hell.

It's not your views that divide us, it's what you think my views should be that divides us.

If you think I will give up my rights and forsake social etiquette to make you "FEEL" better you are sadly mistaken

If liberal democrats would just stop shooting people gun violence would drop by 90%

Lol, you were the last person on my mind when I posted this. I honestly wouldn't have even guessed that you were autistic. And you're def not an a-hole, at-least not to me!

Yeah, having autism sucks @ss sometimes. In other ways it has actually been a benefit.

That's interesting! In what ways would you say it's been a benefit?

Yeah, that's a reasonable assessment. I'd agree that it boils down to the motivations and intent.

That's a very interesting perspective, and I really appreciate you sharing it! In your opinion, what would be the best approach for someone to tell you if you were stepping over the line? Literally everyone who's posted in this thread has agreed that we shouldn't let autism be an excuse for not telling someone if they are being rude or an azz. So, in your opinion, what would be the best approach?

I can't speak for absolutely everyone, but I personally really appreciate as much directness as possible without being too insulting. If we were talking in real life and I had done something really offensive, I would prefer you just said it outright and told me exactly how I had offended you. This is especially true when something has an implied meaning since autistic people have even more trouble with picking up on the implications of social interaction.

So, basically just approach them like everybody else?

For instance, lets say you came up to an autistic person and you where feeling depressed. They didn't pick up on your emotional cues that demonstrated how you were feeling and seemed completely unaware to your emotional state or that anything was wrong. You then say "I really feel like killing myself right now" in order to try and make them aware (although you're not actually suicidal). They then respond with,"Well, that would be really stupid!" You could then respond with,"That was really rude. I'm feeling really upset right now. What you said strongly implies a lack of concern over how I'm feeling or why I would make that statement. You also didn't even notice that I was depressed since I've been expressing it in various ways since I came in the room. I really need to talk to someone about it."

If they express some kind of remorse or desire to fix the problem or immediately start trying to address your upset feelings, it was probably unintentional. If they don't, then they were probably intentionally being an @ss. You also shouldn't get TOO offended if they ask obvious questions like,"When did you express that you were upset? How could you actually tell me that before you said anything? What various ways did you express it before now?" or if they made statements that express strange thinking like,"I thought that you were just joking when you said that. I didn't think you were actually suicidal and I really hope you don't actually kill yourself." or "You didn't actually say you were upset. People "sigh" all the time when they're bored or just going through their day. How am I supposed to know the difference?"

That's a good point. I could totally understand that sometimes they aren't able to pick up on the clues of others' emotions with the same efficiency as someone who wasn't autistic.

There are also many autistic people that are unaware of their own autism. Autistic people really don't have enough social awareness to even know that they're doing something wrong. A lot of the time you can only do your best to make them aware. The problem is that most of them really need a very special kind of help and you can't actually substitute for that without a lot of effort and dedication (and a deep understanding of autism). You shouldn't let them get away with being outright rude, though, because they can't learn unless people start pointing it out to them. They can never learn until they first realize that they have a problem and then start learning how to actually be social.

That makes perfect sense.

I fully agree. I believe that a major factor would be the increase in technology regarding diagnosis and awareness. It just baffles me how these kids can be born to normal parents... somewhat concerning if I can be completely honest.

At 12/10/2014 12:26:27 PM, Blade-of-Truth wrote:I mean this in the least offensive way possible, but I've come across my fair share of individuals on the autism spectrum and it seems that some of them with the more mild cases are complete a-holes.

Usually, I hear people say, "Don't let it bother you, he's just autistic". Is that really a reason to not correct their behavior or call them out for it? It really frustrates me how relentlessly rude some of these people can be, and I feel like something needs to be done other than just giving them a free-pass to be d-bags because they have some sort of mental deficiency.

Am I in the wrong here? If so, then obviously I won't fight it. I just don't feel like the fact that they have mild autistism should justify them being allowed to be d-bags at times.

Also, while were at it, what's up with the enormous increase of autistic children these days? It seems like they are being born at higher rates now than ever before. Have there been any studies that show potential causes for this increase in recent decades?

There is something called a sympathizing quotient, people like me would probably be at number 5 (seeing how I'm an INTJ and rather blunt and cannot take cues) and the normal for males is around 4.

Autistic people are ranked at 6.5+ which means that they are obsessed with a system of recurring patterns but cannot get social cues. Its like if I take you to Pakistan, your demeanor may often be taken as offensive simply because you are not aware how society functions in this place.

Just like that autistic people don't get whats "right" to say and whats "wrong". They cannot comprehend the difference between two social norms and/or what people are thinking.

The above should give you an idea why one cannot blame an autistic for their actions. Though autism has its variations, Marie for example is perfectly sane, and should be able to pick up most social cues.

My cousin for example is at 9. He will ask you the same question ten times, he will ask you what you are feeling because he wont be able to tell. So thus there is a spectrum.

Most people below 7 can understand about half the cues, and can practice to be better and more "social". Though yes, autism does justify being a douche.

Hmm, you are the first person to take that stance so far. Although you justify it pretty well with the varying degrees of seriousness in terms of their inability to understand. Would you say that it would depend on the degree of autism the individual has? Like, if someone was a mild case such as Marie then there is no justification for being a douche but if they are a serious case like your cousin then there is a justified excuse.

At 12/14/2014 9:50:31 AM, YYW wrote:tl;dr only those who are a douche and can do something about it are culpable for it, and someone on the spectrum may or may not be able to do something about it.

Yep, that's been the general consensus in this thread so far aside from Ajabi's view. I'm actually curious about aspergers as well and didn't realize that it was now considered on the spectrum... I'll need to look into that a little more to quench my curiosity. Thanks for sharing your opinion! It's one I agree with 100%

At 12/10/2014 12:26:27 PM, Blade-of-Truth wrote:I mean this in the least offensive way possible, but I've come across my fair share of individuals on the autism spectrum and it seems that some of them with the more mild cases are complete a-holes.

Usually, I hear people say, "Don't let it bother you, he's just autistic". Is that really a reason to not correct their behavior or call them out for it? It really frustrates me how relentlessly rude some of these people can be, and I feel like something needs to be done other than just giving them a free-pass to be d-bags because they have some sort of mental deficiency.

Am I in the wrong here? If so, then obviously I won't fight it. I just don't feel like the fact that they have mild autistism should justify them being allowed to be d-bags at times.

Also, while were at it, what's up with the enormous increase of autistic children these days? It seems like they are being born at higher rates now than ever before. Have there been any studies that show potential causes for this increase in recent decades?

At 12/13/2014 7:49:33 PM, Redspectre wrote:Autistic people dont understand authority or being normal. Many who are capable of changing refuse to change because they are used to being babied.

you need to go somewhere else

Epsilon: There are so many stories where some brave hero decides to give their life to save the day, and because of their sacrifice, the good guys win, the survivors all cheer, and everybody lives happily ever after. But the hero... never gets to see that ending. They'll never know if their sacrifice actually made a difference. They'll never know if the day was really saved. In the end, they just have to have faith.