It is said by somebody who also says "I still see nothing wrong with what RedHat has done".
I don't think there is conspiracy, but there are big attacks against KDE, and those who don't want to defend are weakening KDE.
KDE is born and has grown independtly of GNU-GNome. Now GNU-Gnome, by these attacks, and certainly others, try to break the independancy of KDE.
On the same way, from some years, there are many attacks against Linux for chain it in something called GNU/Linux, however Linus and many users don't want it.
If now, KDE people says nothing against the removal of the about box and the replacement of Konqueror and KMail by Red Hat, if some ones of the KDE-League continue to associate Gnome-GNU and KDE in KGX, the attacks will grow. It is time to say stop !

If KDE has nothing to do with GNU, and has never had anything to do with it, then why has it always, from day one, been licensed under the GNU General Public License and all core libraries (like all GNU core libraries) under the Lesser GNU General Public License?

Of course. And you know - Uhh... - that the GPL is used by projects out of the GNU project. So they are not the same thing...
The GNU project try to "attach" Linux and KDE by calling them GNU/Linux and KGX or by things like Red Hat does. I wish that Linux and KDE will keep their identity, without being "eated" by the GNU project in the long time.

Yes, but to say that GNU and KDE have nothing to do with each other and never have, when the legal terms of KDE's development and distribution was entirely invented by Richard Stallman and his GNU Project is quite disingenuious. Also, the GNU project never came up with KGX - a single, individual KDE developer did, and used it to refer to a particular application and combination of software, of which KDE is only one part, and does not refer to the KDE project in general.

Going back to the incresingly commonly used LAMP convention - LAMP may have articles written about it, websites devoted to it, Sun saying that they are making it part of their strategy. Still, Linux, Apache, MySQL and PHP have plenty of individual identity. Nobody thinks Linux can only be used to run Apache, and nobody thinks Apache runs only on Linux. LAMP is just a convention used to refer to a common configuration of four pieces of software. KGX is just a handy way to refer to a common configuration of four pieces of software to provide an inexpensive and powerful desktop, as opposed to, say, KDE + Xi + BSD, or KDE + AIX on an RS/6000.

I still disagree with you - I think that GNU had a fundimental effect upon, and was responsible for the concepts that created KDE.

As for the website, that's a first for me. But it makes sense, it started off as a phrase the individual person invented (Andreas Pour), but since he's on the KDE League, it's been adopted by them. I disagree with the writeup - the site does *not* pitch KGX, but KDE. In the first paragraph under Proven Solutions, it uses KGX to show how KDE is sucessful. The next paragraph then mentions "the various BSDs, Compaq's Tru64, IBM's AIX, HP's HPUX and Sun's Solaris". Again, this is exactly what I like about the term KGX - it points out that KDE is more than just a Linux desktop, and allows KGX as a common software combination to be discussed.

> I think that GNU had a fundimental effect upon, and was responsible for the concepts that created KDE.

Concepts ? The concepts of the desktop (or more widely the OS/desktop) were in the Microsoft or Apple side, not on the GNU side... The GPL was not a concept, the GNU tools where not concepts, they were realities, tools. The GNU project was at the beginning very opposed to the KDE project, you forget it ! Were the concepts too dangerous ?... However they copied and created Gnome for weakening KDE and they always try to weaken KDE (not directly of course, thru Red Hats, perhaps KDE league)...

> it points out that KDE is more than just a Linux desktop

Surprising answer... It is the contrary, it shows that KDE is just a desktop, a K integrated in a GNU project (or Solaris project..., but GNU at first). In the GNU project, there is only one desktop, Gnome, Red Hat works in this direction and KDE must become a satellite. I fear that many KDE developers don't undestand it.

I came here 1 or 2 years ago, the speech was very different, it was said that KDE will create some exploitation tools for Linux. Few of them were created and it seems that you are regressing, so that KDE will only be a desktop...

I only say that I wish that you defend your integrity, your independancy, your identity. You need to be clearsighted and a little politised, in front of the politised RMS & Co.

I was refering to the concepts of Free Software, distributed development, internet development, and releasing source to the world for free.

:: It is the contrary, it shows that KDE is just a desktop

KDE *is* just a desktop environment. That is, a desktop plus fundimental applications plus the tools to quickly and easily make additional applications. That's all it is. And it does that very well. It writes to POSIX systems running X and Qt. It doesn't even have it's own widget library. It focuses on one thing, and accomplishes its goal very very well. It is a desktop environment.

:: I came here 1 or 2 years ago, the speech was very different, it was said that KDE will create some exploitation tools for Linux.

I have no idea what you're talking about. I've been using KDE and actively following it since before 1.0. I've been using *nix since 1981ish.

:: You need to be clearsighted and a little politised, in front of the politised RMS & Co.

Why bring politics into it? How will that affect me, other than annoy me and bait me to reply to you? WhizbangFooBar OS could own 99% of the market or 1% of the market. If I like it, I use it. I like KDE, I use it. I don't care about Gnome, I care about KDE.

The KDE League are organized for people who like KDE, and want to use it at work - people who (like I used to) have to support hundreds or thousands of users. They make pretty words to convince people who know very little about computers that going to KDE is safe. It's hard, compromising work, and I applaud their efforts. I'd use it if I were still a sysadmin with a large desktop userbase.

But KDE will go on and keep getting better with or without them. And their actions don't affect if KDE is my desktop, and it shouldn't affect if it's your desktop.

But it's all about doing something. What are *your* 'political' actions that you want to do for KDE? I don't ask this rhetorically, I would like to hear your answer - it sounds like you have strong ideas. What are they?

> But KDE will go on and keep getting better with or without them. And their actions don't affect if KDE is my desktop, and it shouldn't affect if it's your desktop.

When the name KDE is replaced/included by KGX, when the about box of KDE is removed, when Konqueror is replaced by Mozilla, when KMail is replaced by Evolution, you don't see it, you are not affected and you continue to say that KDE is going better and better... Many best software has been killed by worst one which won by marketing and political (= non technician, in my wide sense) actions...

> What are *your* 'political' actions that you want to do for KDE? I don't ask this rhetorically, I would like to hear your answer - it sounds like you have strong ideas. What are they?

No, I have not strong ideas, only simple things. KDE is KDE, not a part of some GNU-Gnome thing, the about box is as a copyright and don't have to be removed, the default kicker navigator and email reader are Konqueror and Kmail (or it is a fork that has not to be called KDE...). Only such simple and pragmatic things so that KDE will keep its identity...

It already is replaced/included by terms such as Mandrake, SuSE, Xandros, etc. So there's now a non-distro, non-company specific term for it. Isn't that an advantage?

:: when the about box of KDE is removed, when Konqueror is replaced by Mozilla, when KMail is replaced by Evolution, you don't see it, you are not affected and you continue to say that KDE is going better and better

First off, no distro has ever released that. Red Hat is playing with the idea of that in a release schedualed for next year. KDE will be a few minor versions down the road at that point. And it won't affect me, as I use SuSE. The power of choice means that there will be some lousy choices along with the great ones. I don't see that as becoming a common configuration, and right now it's a nonexistant configuration.

So, let's say that the worst happens - Red Hat chooses really ugly fonts, colors, messes up all the menus, and makes you drink battery acid before you can use KDE. That still won't affect my desktop environment whatsoever. If it's bad, people won't use it. If it's good, and people love it and start using it all over the place, then maybe KDE has something to learn from Red Hat's decisions. That's the point of Open Source.

And Red Hat is happy to see the lack of reaction of KDE, it is possible to go further...

> That still won't affect my desktop environment whatsoever. If it's bad, people won't use it.

Being inward looking is not the good way. Bad or good, Red Hat users will not see the true KDE, they will use it less and less, so they will go to use Gnome (and Gnome is good, it helps). And when then Mandrake users, then others distros users will also go to Gnome and when you will be few to use KDE (the good way...), perhaps the number of developers will grow ?...

See Netscape today, 3 or 4% of users, but for the elit using Netscape, it is far better than IE... IE is bad and people use it, Netscape and Konqueror are good and very few people use them. The technical quality of KDE is not enough for growing or, at least, for staying. By being too egoist and having only a technical vue, the best software will lose.

> That's the point of Open Source.
> It's win-win-win.

Anybody he is good, anybody he is gentle, the open source is the paradize and we dance all together...

> Red Hat users will not see the true KDE ... they will go to use Gnome

Newsflash - it's always been this way! Gnome is the RedHat default, and their KDE support has always been second-rate. Most RedHat users use Gnome ANYWAY, so whether they see your version of the 'true' KDE.

What is the 'true' KDE anyway - the version SuSE ships (and I use) with a SuSE-unique KMenu, the version Mandrake ships with binaries & libs in a wierd location, the version Connectiva ships with their own icon set, or the version RedHat will ship with their own window decoration and default apps? Only the source code from KDE is 'true'. "KDE Only Ships Source." The KDE project does NOT provide final implementation. Vendors provide the implementation. SuSE implements it SuSE's way (and I like it, so they earned my money), Sun does it Sun's way (on the Solaris Companion CD, and it's poorly done, so I compile my own for my company), RedHat will do it RedHat's way.

If YOU want to provide a set of packages of your vision of the 'true' KDE for ALL Linux distros, then nothing is stopping you from doing so. If you honestly think you can set up a GNU-less Linux-KDE system, then DO IT and show us how.

> Netscape, it is far better than IE... IE is bad and people use it,

People use it because it renders pages properly, and has support for pretty much every plug-in that exists.

> Netscape and Konqueror are good and very few people use them.

I use Konqueror, and when it crashes or refuses to render a page properly with javascripts, then I launch Mozilla. When Mozilla refuses to render a site because it needs a newer version of Flash, or whatever, then I open a Citrix session to a machine a work and use IE6. IE is not 'bad'. It has some security holes, but it renders pages perfectly and quickly, and I have WORK to do, not time to waste on dogma.

Fundamentalism in ANY form (Christian/Islamic/Hindu/Unix Desktop) is evil. Get some help.

Seriously, Alain, SHUT UP! You have contributed NOTHING to KDE that we can tell, except for trying to tell everyone (loudly, over-and-over-and-over) that we have to use KDE according to YOUR philosophy. You're speaking about things that you DO NOT understand, and are making yourself look incredibly foolish to the extremely intelligent, dedicated and hard-working people who have created KDE out of nothing, and to the users, old and new, who will be confused by the illusion of legitimacy that your rantings have by being posted in this public (and Google-cached) forum.

Please GO AWAY!!!!

Everyone else: Alain is a TROLL. PLEASE stop responding to him (I know, do as I say, not as I do....sorry.) I really wish the admins could/would kill this entire thread and delete it out of memory, but that would juse be more /. fodder.

Who is this Mr Anonymous who so trolls ? It seems he wants to forbid the liberty of speak, certainly because he is too intelligent and understands everything more than anyone else... Poor fundamentalist !

Nota : when I said "IE is bad", it was of course a simplification, bad in the sense of closed sources, security and standard.

=> People use it because it renders pages properly, and
has support for pretty much every plug-in that exists.

NO, IE renders pages properly if they are specifically written for it. Which is bad.
Web developersd should write their webpages to recommended web standards,
not to the malformed standard of one obsolete, and insecure web browser.
"Write once, read anywhere . . . " as I believe the saying goes . . .

And NO, IE does not support all plugins. Take Java for instance, MSIE6
did not ship with it, and whenever an IE user comes across a web page
that contains Java, they are prompted to download the Microsoft JVM,
which is nothing more than a 4 year old (obsolete) version of Java that
has been corrupted, diluted and polluted with a ton of Microsoft
proprietary junk code so that it only works with Windows.

As for the early contributor that said IE has a few security holes is
severly underestimating IE's poor security. Recently, there were 32
unpatched security holes in IE. Just over a month ago, MS released
a cumulative security patch for IE, and there are still 19 holes in IE
that remain unpatched. And this is just in the versions of IE made
for Windows. God only knows how many unpatched security
holes there are in the versions of IE made for Macintosh!

> in the future, Red Hat is perfectly positioned to dump GNOME and go with KDE by default

Ah, yes, of course, it is simple and obvious, you begin by remove Konqueror and Kmail from the KDE desktop, replacing them with Gnome programs, and then you put Konqueror and Kmail on the Gnome desktop !

Reading many of the comments posted here, mostly by Kde enthusiasts, I'm once again confirmed about how insolent and arrogant your community can be.

At least kde is consistent. Kde has never wanted an integrated desktop for linux, only promotion of it's own stuff as "the" desktop and application framework for Linux. Actually Linux has had an integrated desktop for years. You can run almost any application with any window manager. But Kde denies that to promote its own agenda. Kde places a heavy, crashy subsystem on top of X to imitate Microsoft Windows and more recently Mac OSX.

One could say that Gnome is trying to do the same but Gnome does not sit heavy on X like Kde does. It blends in, seeming to be a native and natural part of the Linux experience. Kde messed up right from the start by using Trolltech's Qt toolkit for the sake of immediate convenience regardless of licensing problems this created for linux distributions packaging Kde. Although licensing issues have now been resolved, Kde and the Qt subsystem still seem "foreign" to Linux. Even worse, Kde remains completely dependent on a commercial software company which maintains tight control over its own products, including the free version of Qt made available for Linux. Forking is possible but impractical, so Kde remains dependent on the good graces of Trolltech to provide what is needed, even if this might run contrary to Trolltech's business interests which must come first. That's a Sword of Damocles hanging over Kde's head.

Kde will not have its way. RedHat's initiative to produce a more integrated desktop experience will be followed by other distros on which Kde is currently the default desktop. Gnome will tend to become the default, providing a shell which will also run kde apps if users want that.

Time and time again Gnome has offered the olive branch to Kde and kde has bared its teeth. Now Redhat has invalidated or made "null and void" Kde's agenda for a Kde desktop to replace the Linux desktop. We're getting back to basics, a linux desktop.

Actually the integration Redhat is attempting is a simplification of the whole mess which should come as a great relief to applications developers who have been unsure of whether their choice of a toolkit is the right one. The point is that it doesn't matter. We are coming back to the desktop environment being more like a shell, which can run a variety of apps built with a variety of tookits. As opposed to that Kde insists on tight integration among all its components which must use Qt and Kde libraries and conventions. How is Gnome different? Gnome also allows integration and embedding but doesn't make that so much of a requirement as Kde does. Gnome has always been "mix and match". That philosophy will prevail, not Kde's imitation of the Microsoft Windows "one size fits all" philosophy.

So long as I can use any window managaer I want to use and run any app on the desktop a window manager provides I'll be happy. So will most current linux users. Those desiring more uniformity will have that option, as will corporations desiring a more customized look and feel for thier specific needs. But the Kde desktop as a separate subsystem sitting on top of Linux is something that never was meant to be, even if it has succeeded in attracting a number of users who want their Linux experience to be more like Microsoft Windows. Linux can do better than that, and will!

All I can say is well said. I have just installed the latst RedHat beta on my laptop, it has a few bugs but I think it really does make it easier for new users. It gives that uniform look but it is still easy to customise to your own tastes. Well done RedHat we need all parties to co operate not argue amongst our own forces if Linux is to suceed.

I prefer kde to gnome but I am behind RedHat on this one, they have done an excellent job. One thing for them is they are totally comitted to open source and can still manage to make a viable business from it all, keep up the good work.

Still churning out the same dull myths about KDE/Qt/whatever? License issues, imitation of Windows, blah blah. Are you somehow unable to form opinions of your own, or must you repeat the same crap peddled by those trying to create divisions in the Linux community?

Why did you bother wasting your time with your post? Feel better about yourself now?

Did you really have to bring up Qt and licensing? Good Lord, it's over man! It's over!!

<<< Kde messed up right from the start by using Trolltech's Qt toolkit for the sake of immediate convenience regardless of licensing problems this created for linux distributions packaging Kde. Although licensing issues have now been resolved, Kde and the Qt subsystem still seem "foreign" to Linux. >>>

I'd have to say choosing Qt was KDE's best choice ever. What else were they going to use, Motif or Athena? Do you even know KDE's history? Gtk didn't even exist back then, and today it just plays catch-up to Qt. The reason KDE got so good so fast was because of the powerful Qt foundation they developed.

KDE is ahead of GNOME, there is no question. But don't feel bad, KDE had a year or so of a head start on GNOME, and their foundation library (Qt) was handed to them on a platter. Of course, this doesn't mean that GNOME won't catch up.

As for "foreign", I'm not sure what you mean. While Qt is cross-platform, its home is unix. Is it "foreign" to you because it is written in C++? I mean really, what are you trying to say here?

<<< Even worse, Kde remains completely dependent on a commercial software company which maintains tight control over its own products, including the free version of Qt made available for Linux. Forking is possible but impractical, so Kde remains dependent on the good graces of Trolltech to provide what is needed... >>>

GPL == GPL. It is also possible for me to fork the Linux kernel, but it is just as impractical. What's your point?

Regardless, Trolltech _does_ deliver. That's what you get when you have KDE developers paid to work on a GPL library. Surely you know that quite a few KDE people are employed by Trolltech, eh?

However, the totally default install, with Gnome, does look exceptionally easy for the new, and not very technical, user. The menus are super simple, and uses descriptive names (e.g. Email) rather than program names. Aside from it's ugliness, it is probably easier to learn than any other default desktop I've seen under Linux, if a bit limiting for the seasoned user. The new user can even change the desktop resolution effortlessly. And what's more, it actually works without breaking your X configuration. (Hear that, Mandrake?)

However, I did reinstall, selecting the "Everything" install, and without too terribly much tweaking (and absolutely ZERO xterm or console editing sessions), had a gorgeous KDE 3.0.3 desktop running Keramik with the Crystal icon set. This is the first time I have seen keramik/crystal outside of screenshots and I must say, I'm impressed, guys!

RedHat *has* done a lot of things right, here. And this is just their first attempt at a desktop distro.

Certainly the default theme is far from perfect. The only logical conclusion to be drawn, is that RedHat is really serious about the desktop now, but that their entire staff, from chairman of the board to the housekeeping crew are legally blind.

This is good new for anyone with normal eyesite, as I expect they'll be hiring! ;-)

Hehe... ;) Nice to hear you like it (funny thing is most people trying it do like it, many people only seeing screenshots or hearing about it hate it ;)). But I would say their style is a matter of taste, as I like it so much that I tried hard to get it working in Gentoo (with success) and my eyesight is pretty good. ;)
While it doesn't look very fancy, it's still of a very good quality (the Qt style is a bit lacking yet) and a "boring gray and blue" look might be the better choice not to piss anyone off. ;) Especially as they are targetting for the corporate desktop.

I also think the 'boring grey' is a matter of taste. I also installed it on Gentoo and I enjoy a integrated gtk+ 1.2 gtk+ 2.0 desktop now (the metacity-theme is beautifull). But coming back on matter of taste, Look in the windows newsgroups, how many people prefer the windows 2000 look above the windows XP shiny thingy look.

KDE 3.1 is in a pretty good push for release. Before any semi-major release, things get quiet other than Beta reviews.

Other than the Red Hat story, which has not (as far as I've seen) had any definitive facts related about what is going on, and which is covered ad nauseum in the dot already, there really is not much going on. All of what you linked to is rumors, speculation, editorials and positioning. Until Red Hat comes out with a statement or release, I'm not interested in the guesses by people - the only facts that I'be seen were three terse CVS commits. And out of those few notes has risen a panoply of wild gnashing of teeth and a backlash to that reaction.