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44 thoughts on “I MAY HAVE BEEN HASTY IN JUDGMENT”

Ah, Adam and Eve. The lovely story about how god doesn’t want people to have knowledge, but ALSO gives them rules that require knowledge in order to follow. Thus unable to think rationally for themselves enough to obey rules, god then puts the very object he doesn’t want them to touch literally right in the middle of their home.

It would be a comedy if it weren’t so stupid, but after god purposely doesn’t allow humans to be able to think rationally, and then they do something irrational, he decides to punish them. Oh, but not just them. Their children not yet conceived. And their children. And their children. And their children.

Yes, according to the bible, women today are literally dying in childbirth (US childbirth deaths are up, by the way) because 6000 years ago, god decided to punish human kind for acting in a way which was inevitable, given the easy access and restrictions on rational thought he placed on them.

And, that is where “the knowledge” of good and evil takes us. We begin to embrace and absorb the evil, because, well, it looks good, tastes good, feels good, and I want it so I should have it.
So God says, ” Your choice, not mine. Have it your way. ” Of course, by then, we didn’t need his permission anyway, did we.

Randy, you’re jumping ahead of the problem. You are ignoring the problem. Prior to Adam and Eve eating from the tree, they did not have knowledge of good and evil. They did not have morality. They did not have the capacity to make judgements.

Without the ability to make good judgements, they made a judgement, and god punished them for it.

If I put radiator fluid in a sippy cup in the middle of the nursery floor and tell a child not to drink it, I am not right to punish the child for drinking it. The child doesn’t know any better, and I actually had to do something intentional to put that danger within their grasp. I could have just not put radiator fluid in a sippy cup, or not intentionally placed it within the child’s grasp where the child plays.

You won’t understand this, but trusting in The True God does not make one dumb, it opens up the world to discovery.
Questions on life, creation, science, morality, all based on a relationship with the God that you say doesn’t exist, often have quite a different answer than the answer one may find on his own limited perspective.

Would you be opposed to a prospective employer putting a “test” before a prospective employee to see if he would obey on secret?
If he fails, he doesn’t get the job.
You wouldn’t put a test like that on front of a child.
But a man, with the ability to think, to reason, to decide if God is good or not, if He can be trusted or not, would have everything he needs in his previous association with this God to make a good judgment?
He was even warned in advance of the consequences.

Randy, I didn’t call you dumb, I called your god dumb. But I’m starting to wonder if you don’t fit the bill.

You are ignoring the obvious. Man was UNABLE TO REASON PRIOR TO EATING THE FRUIT. Man was unable to make knowledgeable judgments prior to eating the fruit. Man was unable to rationalize prior to eating the fruit. Man was unable to be a moral agent prior to eating the fruit. Man was unable to make judgement on trust prior to eating the fruit. Man was LIKE A CHILD prior to eating the fruit.

We can’t have expected Adam and Eve to make good judgement calls prior to eating the fruit. Just as we don’t put an employment test in front of a child, we don’t put a “live or die” test in front of childlike, brand new to the world adults that don’t know the difference between right and wrong, good and evil, naked or clothed.

I wouldn’t put that test to such a creature. Your god did, and he (supposedly) punishes all of us TO THIS DAY for it.

What makes you think there was no ability to reason before? The “image of God” probably carries a lot more intelligence and wisdom than you ascribe to it. God let Adam name all the animals. Pretty big task. He walked with God in the garden, probably learning a lot of stuff in the process, including tasting of the love God had for him.
You forget that there was an enemy.
The tree was a pin of testing. It could have been anything. One test in a world of good things, good relationships.
But, God allowed love to be voluntary.
The enemy called God a liar. Kinda like you do. Things haven’t changed that much, have they.
I assumed you were calling me dumb because you say there is no god.
You did slander Him twice (or three times) so far, though.

Because the bible story specifically says so, Randy. The tree is literally called the tree of the knowledge of good and evil. And they were so unable to determine right from wrong that they walked around naked (gasp!) and didn’t recognize that as being bad.

And if they did not have the knowledge of good and evil, and were unable to make moral judgement, then they most certainly would not have understood following rules. Are you telling me there is another way to understand following rules besides morality and reason?

It actually doesn’t specifically say that.
You don’t have kids, do you?
Oh, do you live in Germany?
You can’t love someone who gives you only good stuff and doesn’t provide restrictions.
Well, you can, but it will be yourself.

Adam walked every day with the standard of wisdom, truth, morality, justice, mercy, and life. But, he believed a lie and traded that standard for a low quality counterfeit.
Do you think God didn’t know what Adam would choose?
He didn’t make the law to show Adam how hard it would be to keep his life.
He made the law so Adam would see that he couldn’t keep the life.

Randy, I have kids, and I never put them on the living room floor, before they understood reason and morality, and put a sippy cup of radiator fluid on the floor with them, then told them not to drink it or else… and then walked away. That is called stupid parenting. Its called illegally endangering a child.

And by the way, what kind of psychotic asshole are you to assume that by having kids I’d be okay killing them if they don’t listen to specific instructions before the age of 2?

Not what I was talking about. Did you ever have to teach them to disobey or defy you? It’s built into humanity because we can choose our paths. We usually choose poorly. Thank you for the stimulating conversation. I hope you saw the humor intended in the Adam and Eve story. Did you know the song I referred to?

You keep ignoring my question entirely, which means you are scared to answer it honestly.

I’ll help.

Yes, prior to Adam or Eve being able to use knowledge or morality, god deliberately tested them, knowing they would fail. But even though he set them up for failure, he has punished every human that has ever lived since then becausr of it.

I answered it. Theyknew morality. They knew reason. They had light. They had a future. They had a hope. The enemy of God lied to them and they believed the lie.
But God made a way back.
He knew they couldn’t do it.
Unless they chose the one way back.
One law to keep…tree of knowledge.
One way back…tree of life.
Free gift for anyone who will accept it.
My way.
Or His way.
You say God punishes.
I say He gives you what you want.

Randy, I can’t think of a better example of tap dancing ignorance than this. The bible says one thing, but you interject the weirdest, and possibly the most impossible division of human consciousness ever uttered, so you don’t have to face up to reality.

And I will close with this: you felt compelled to take a lighthearted piece I wrote and try to convince me that the God I know is a lie.
Yet, I know Him, and you don’t.
I wish you could.
I talk to Him about you often.
He knows your name.

LOL! Randy, noting that your religion is completely made up is what I do. It’s a good song, and you did make it funny. But let’s not forget the underlying message that you KEEP IGNORING. The god of the bible punished all of us forever after setting up Adam and Eve for failure from the start. He either planned to screw us over, or he is a dumbass. We are FORTUNATE that he doesn’t exist.

Hi, Wendy. Because you missed the mark, you obviously don’t have any idea who I am, my general mental state, what my relationships with family and friends are, or how well I am doing. But I know you lashed out at me on a personal level because you don’t have an intelligent rebuke to the problem. It’s a defense mechanism, but it isn’t honest.

Care to try again? God made Adam and Eve without the capacity for knowledge or morality, tested them on knowledge and morality, and when they inevitably failed he punished them. Those are just the facts of the story.

Why do you think Adam and Eve had no capacity for knowledge or morality? Made in the image of God implies the capacity of both. He gave them the ability to choose as well. Having the knowledge and ability to decide doesn’t preclude the ability to be deceived.

Randy, I don’t feel like I’m being punished because your god doesn’t exist. My condition is just what it is. I make the best of what nature has given me, and try to succeed. Usually fairly well.

We have to work hard to get food to eat. Women all have painful and sometimes fatal births. As a product of nature, we expect this. Nature isn’t helping or harming, it just is. Nature isn’t loving or hating, it just is. Nature isn’t picking sides, it just is.

But your holy book claims that it was your deity that is responsible for the fight for food and the difficulties of reproduction. Your deity is happy to say he is responsible for making everything difficult, resulting in billions of deaths in the history of mankind. Your deity is proud to have intentionally set up Adam for failure, and make mankind suffer for it. Your god had intent to make things worse. That’s evil.

Good answer! May I assume that you believe that when your body dies, that is the end?
If that is what you believe, and you died, but found yourself still in a state of consciousness, aware of your surroundings, after the shock wore off, would you prefer to be in the presence of my God, or separated from Him?

Like in reality, or just going along with what your made up religious text says?

In reality, it’s a nonsense question. If I’m dead, I’m dead. If I’m dead, then I don’t have consciousness just like a burning log, once extinguished, doesn’t have a flame. You’re asking me to pretend that if I were a flame above a cold, wet log, then what would I do? It’s nonsense.

But if we pretend that your holy book isn’t made up for a second, and since we know your god likes to set up human beings for failure and then punish them, I’d answer no, I don’t wanna be anywhere near that guy. I don’t join the mob because I don’t wanna be near people like that. (and lots of other reasons, but that’s certainly one of them)

So, it’s not his punishment, but your choice. Do you see the point I’m making. You blame God for making rules, establishing boundaries to protect and govern the world. (“If He exists”) But you blame Him for allowing consequences when the rules and boundaries are broken.
When you choose, not God, how is he terrible if he let’s you have what you want?

That there is no God? The one thing that Jesus said that changed my life is “You must be born again.” If you are not, you cannot even see the kingdom of God. While I believe that you believe (sort of) that there is no God, it seems weird to me that you spend so much time and energy trying to tell those who have experienced this “born again” thing and found it to be true and life altering that there is no God, when we KNOW that He Is.
Maybe I am stupid.
But, in my stupidity, I have found Joy, peace and fellowship with other stupid ones like me, who communicate with this “imaginary” God.

And I will answer with what I already said, only maybe in different words. They walked with God in the garden every day, receiving wisdom, instruction, rules for good life, boundaries for protection. Why do you think that is so hard to imagine? One rule to keep. They knew that they were going against God’s words. But someone turned their eyes away from the God of their life to a life of “my way, not God’s.” I disagree with the premise that they were innocent. It didn’t have to be fruit on one tree. It could have been don’t pick that one flower. Don’t drive in the middle of the road. Don’t text while driving. Don’t do drugs….Humans will usually choose what they want, even if warned.
The amazing thing is, God the way to come back.
That is not something to be taken lightly.
There was a choice for Adam.
There is a choice for you.

So we know for a fact that the bible said they did not have knowledge of good and evil. But now you are adding a bunch of made up, extra-biblical guesses and assuming that even though they didnt have knowledge of good and evil, they were learning some things, only exceptionally compartmentalized learning where they were able to obey rules, but not enough to understand modesty. Based on your non-biblical, non-sourced opinion, they weren’t able to tell good from evil, but were able to distinguish finer nuances of good. Despite the bible being exceptionally clear about the sudden shock they received when morality and shame spread through their body after eating, somehow they also had small amounts of shame and moral judgement on following a rule.

In other words, your shitting out of your mouth in order to try and justify what is clearly a stupid story that wasn’t well thought out.

And worst of all, you’re using a story that clearly describes a situation of the humans being set up by the god and then punished, as a reason to pretend that people are inheritently bad and need your magic snake oil.

Your religion is so dumb, it barely makes sense in its own fantasy world. When measured against the real world, its even dumber.

And I honestly don’t believe you are dumb. But your belief that this religion must be right has completely distorted your rational thinking. When discussing your religion, logic gives way to wild ass guessing, as you have already demonstrated. And as soon as your wild ass guessing satisfies YOU, you quit thinking and just settle in.

The Adam and Eve story is mind blowingly stupid for so many different reasons, I could write a book. And yet here you are, dodging the plain truth.

“Don’t eat from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil” does not say that they did not know. They did know good. When the serpent questioned them about the tree, Eve said, “But God said…” She knew what God had said. She knew the consequences. Bad consequences to doing something you are told not to do sounds like a basic understanding of good and evil.
Sorry for being so obtuse.
Why does this all make you so mad?
Do you think my life would be better if I would turn away from God?
Where would I go, after tasting of the heavenly gift?
Would anything else satisfy?
Do you care that I find peace, joy and satisfaction in this life?
Why would you want to take that away?
Does your religion offer any hope at all?

I dont have a religion, I have reality. And yes, reality is the preferred way to look at the world.

So now youre saying they already knew good and evil. So your god was a dickhead and punished everyone that would ever live for absolutely no reason whatsoever? For disobeying a made-up rule? Like an insecure girlfriend? Is that what your god is?

Yes, Randy. I already answered it. Pretty much all I’ve been doing is answering it. If you give a rule to an animal that is incapable of following the rule, that is not choice. Punishing an animal for something the animals great-great grandfather did isn’t choice. You keep saying choice when the characters clearly have no ability to exercise choice.

And now you are refusing to answer yet another question. But I’m tired of your “make shit up on the spot and tapdance” mode of debate. You know the answer, but you can’t accept it. You’re fighting it with every newly made up excuse you give me. Meh. Another day perhaps.

Animals and people, two different things. Every person has a choice.
All Adam had to say was “No. I believe YHWH,” and walk away.
He was not a dumb animal.
Neither are you.
But, pride, well, that is another topic completely.
See you on the next controversy.
(You didn’t answer my last few questions, if we are keeping score.)

Wow, long thread. I admit I skimmed parts of it, but I don’t believe I saw anyone mention THE central point of the Christian faith – that although justice says sin must be paid for, this “cruel” God paid the penalty Himself because He wanted His wayward children to return to Him.
Jesus took the punishment He didn’t deserve, so we could have the blessings we didn’t deserve. This is not an unreasonable dad, it’s more like a doting grandparent. This is called unconditional LOVE. (“GOD IS LOVE.”) True, it’s a love we can’t comprehend, but I have no complaints. I know who I am and the evil I’m capable of, and I will be forever grateful to the One who enabled me to live the life I was created to live.