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Re: The old Argument: What defines what anime is?

Originally Posted by DeadmanWonderland

True, some cartoons continue their story in the next episodes. Your saying anime is only from Japan though? New to me.

Anime: a Japanese style of motion-picture animation, characterized by highly stylized, colorful art, futuristic settings, violence, and sexuality. This is a definition I found, even if I disagree with the futuristic setting portion. Still a cartoon though.

Re: The old Argument: What defines what anime is?

</I></B>: アニメ
Japanese word for cartoon and animation. In Japan, "anime" refers to any and all animation or cartoon - regardless of the genre, style, or nation of origin.

While it is clear that the word anime derives from a western term, there is some debate as to its exact origin. One very common interpretation is that it comes from the French term for cartoon, "dessin animé", which translates literally to "animated drawing". However, others believe it's simply a contraction of the word "animation" as pronounced in English.

While the French origin is perhaps the most widely spread theory, it may simply be a myth related to the popularity of anime in France in the late 70s and the 80s which was so spectacular it even led to some French-Japanese co-productions. But animation in Japan has existed for longer than that, and the full word for animation there is アニメション (animeshon) which follows the English pronunciation, not the French one. Combined with the fact that Japanese have a habit of incorporating English words into their language much more often than other western languages, this makes a strong case that "anime" is actually the short form of the Japanization of the English word "animation."

There is much controversy as to whether or not the label "anime" can be extended to non-Japanese animation that looks like Japanese animation. Whether or not the label can be extended to non-Japanese animation depends largely on the technical definition of "anime" that one choses to accept:

Defined by origin: Defining "anime" as animation produced in Japan allows for a fairly black and white application of the label. The only gray area occurs with co-productions that may have had a portion of their animation, and/or scripting produced outside of Japan.

Defined by style: Defining "anime" as a style of animation that originated in Japan is much more complicated, however this definition would allow animation produced outside of Japan, but conforming to the defined "style" to be called "anime." It is difficult to determine if this "style" should be determined solely on drawing style (ie: Big eyes, small mouth, pointy hair), if it should include editing techniques (Japanese animation typically makes more use of "cuts" and "camera angles" than most non Japanese animation), and whether the narrative or storytelling style should be included in the definition. Perhaps the biggest pitfall of this definition is that, due to the wide variety of Japanese animation, regardless of any style based definition, there will always be Japanese animation that would not fit the definition, creating a scenario where some Japanese animation would not be anime.

According to Anime News Network publisher, Christopher Macdonald, "On Anime News Network, we define anime based on the origin of the animation. If it is primarily produced in Japan, it is anime. It should be clear, that by adhering to a definition that defines non-Japanese animation that mimic common anime styles as 'not anime,' Anime News Network does not endorse the notion that these 'anime-style' works are in any way inferior to animation produced in Japan. "

Anime (Japanese: アニメ?, [a.ni.me] (listen); i/ˈænɨmeɪ/ or /ˈɑːnɨmeɪ/) are Japaneseanimated productions featuring hand-drawn or computer animation. Anime includes animated television series, short films and full-length feature films.[1] The word is the abbreviated pronunciation of "animation" in Japanese. In English, the term is defined as a Japanese-disseminated animation style often characterized by colorful graphics, vibrant characters and fantastic themes.[2][3] The intended meaning of the term sometimes varies depending on the context.[4]
While the earliest known Japanese animation dates to 1917, and many original Japanese animations were produced in the ensuing decades, the characteristic anime style developed in the 1960s—notably with the work of Osamu Tezuka—and became known outside Japan in the 1980s.
Anime, like manga, has a large audience in Japan and recognition throughout the world. Distributors can release anime via television broadcasts, directly to video, or theatrically, as well as online.
Both hand-drawn and computer-animated anime exist. It is used in television series, films, video, video games, commercials, and Internet-based releases, and represents most, if not all, genres of fiction. As the market for anime increased in Japan, it also gained popularity in East and Southeast Asia. Anime is currently popular in many different regions around the world.

Anime production outside JapanEven domestic animation industries had made attempts at emulating anime. Anime-influenced animation refers to non-Japanese works of animation that emulate the visual style of anime.[71] Most of these works are created by studios in the United States, Europe, and non-Japanese Asia; and they generally incorporate stylizations, methods, and gags described in anime physics, as in the case of Avatar: The Last Airbender.[72] Often, production crews either are fans of anime or are required to view anime.[73] Some creators cite anime as a source of inspiration with their own series.[74][75] Furthermore, a French production team for Ōban Star-Racers moved to Tokyo to collaborate with a Japanese production team from Hal Film Maker.[76] Critics and the general anime fanbase do not consider them as anime.[77][3]

Yet, as anime became widespread, the prospect of producing anime beyond Japanese borders is still debatable.[3] However, a series dubbed as the "Middle East's First Anime Show" is currently in production.[78]

Last edited by Clayton_n; 06-25-2013 at 07:24 PM.

Anime is a lot like sex. Done right it's a beautiful act of creation that brings a little more light into the world. If it's sick and wrong... it's even better.
Author of "How to Be an Anime Character" and "Lesbian Fairy Tales" available from Amazon.com

Re: The old Argument: What defines what anime is?

Originally Posted by Rachel Alucard

Anime: a Japanese style of motion-picture animation, characterized by highly stylized, colorful art, futuristic settings, violence, and sexuality. This is a definition I found, even if I disagree with the futuristic setting portion. Still a cartoon though.
"Anime is a cartoon, made in and written by Japanese."

Hence "Japanese-style." That's why I said it's new to me that only Japan makes anime.
Clayton made a lot clearer though. "Yet, as anime became widespread, the prospect of producing anime beyond Japanese borders is still debatable. " Anime-influenced animation refers to non-Japanese works of animation that emulate the visual style of anime. Most of these works are created by studios in the United States, Europe, and non-Japanese Asia.

Re: The old Argument: What defines what anime is?

Originally Posted by DeadmanWonderland

Hence "Japanese-style." That's why I said it's new to me that only Japan makes anime.
Clayton made a lot clearer though. "Yet, as anime became widespread, the prospect of producing anime beyond Japanese borders is still debatable. " Anime-influenced animation refers to non-Japanese works of animation that emulate the visual style of anime. Most of these works are created by studios in the United States, Europe, and non-Japanese Asia.

Re: The old Argument: What defines what anime is?

Originally Posted by Rachel Alucard

Because that defines what anime actually is. I don't care, stop jumping to assumptions. No one is dissing American cartoons.

I always felt it an interesting discussion, mainly since I happen to be around— for a god bit of time— several people who were indeed "anime elitists" and thought that even the highest caliber Western animation doesn't deserve to even consider thinking in the direction of the lowest of the low anime, and that Americanime and like Animesque stuff is the worst of them all because now it's not even taking what little motes of pride they could in being Western "kiddy cartoons" but instead trying and failing to shamelessly copy something of an obviously superior quality that they had no hope of even coming close to matching in quality.
Something around those words, I've kinda changed them a tad bit according to what I remember.

Yeah, I never really... 'associated' with them too much, but their opinion on Anime vs Cartoons was extremist to say the least. For a while, I had it pegged that all anime fans were like this, until about 2 years ago when I discovered that there are, indeed, anime fans who love Western cartoons.
And I too wondered what was the real difference between anime and cartoons.
Now I just accept that 'anime'=animation from Japan. Cartoons=everything animated. Including anime, but usually referring to Western animation. Western cartoons= animation from the west.
What's so hard to grasp? In reality, there's no magical barrier separating Japanese anime from Western animation. That, once you cross it, animation suddenly improves or deteriorates. The only reason why Western animation tends to be lower qual than anime (in terms of story, characterization, etc.) is because they are from the West. Which, as I've stated before, is still caught by something called the Animation Age Ghetto.
Generally, the West prefers that cartoons be comedic. Generally, in the West, comedy-based material is most successful when episodic. Thus, there was no need to develop characters. Just draw up a template, put 'em in wacky situations, and boom= cartoon. Because of the episodic nature, there was no need for depth. So 'Cartoons' evolved their own way.

In Japan, this didn't develop and over-arcing storylines became normal in their animation. Because 'slapstick goofiness, a lack of any characterization or development, and asinine plots' doesn't really work well in a serial, it was only natural that anime developed differently than cartoons. Anime evolved its own way.
One went with the episodic format, and the other went with serials. This fundamental difference is what made the two so unalike.

In the West, thanks to the Animation Age Ghetto, anime hit very hard. All of a sudden, it became possible— now almost even the norm— to have storylines that last more than one episode, and for there to be extensive character development. We simply didn't see this in cartoons beforehand. Whereas in the East, episodic and serial cartoons intermingled.
Because Western animation's depth evolution has been retarded in this respect (and it may take awhile to catch up), anime took root in the West and such 'Anime elitists' came about.

Now that anime has influenced a full generation of Westerners, it was only a matter of time before 'Animesque' works were developed. As we've noted, there still exists differences. Almost all animesque stuff is still Ghettoized. There's been little attempt at making a true-to-form Japanese anime, without all the Western ideals of "humor always" and "use the tropes."
In fact, I haven't even seen an anime-inspired work that looks totally like contemporary anime. Teen Titans, Totally Spies, Code Lyoko, Avatar: The Last Airbender— all put their own spin on the basic art style. There hasn't been a popular Western show that looks utterly indistinguishable from a typical anime. But, as I predict, there will be. Soon.
And when such happens, this argument will begin again.
Before the anime boom, it was easy to tell what was and wasn't anime because of the stylism. Now that American/Canadian/Western Japanophiles are growing up (and money-minded animators realize the market), as aforementioned, we'll have to remind ourselves that the only thing separating Western animation and Japanese anime is...
WESTERN as to JAPAN.
You could make an show that looks and plays out exactly like Bleach in all respects, even the names, but if it was made in New York... it's not anime.
Just animesque. Of course, that dastardly '-esque' suffix is the problem, because it assumes that nothing that's not anime will ever be exactly like anime, even if the show in question is anime to a point without being from Japan.

I also believe that, because of such purists and the ghetto itself, the word "cartoon" has been tainted by connotations. 'Anime' carries the idea of interesting characters drawn in an awesome, stylized manner with deep stories and epic events, watchable regardless of age (or even not meant to be watched by children). That is, when it's not 'Japanese porn'.
'Cartoon' automatically makes everyone think 'children's comedy' or 'stupid vulgar stuff for immature men.' It's natural that some people would want to not be labeled 'cartoon.'
Think of comics. Comic books even sound like they're supposed to be "comical." (Not intended, but that's what happened). So how do you get people to take you seriously?
"Graphic novel." Dude, it's a comic... but it's called a 'graphic novel', so it sounds more mature. 'Graphic' carries images of violence or mature content, asides from 'pictures' and 'drawings.' You get two in one. 'Novel' sounds mature in and of itself.
Graphic novel = comic book. Same difference. Both words of each phrase means the same at the end of the day, but the connotations are different.
Same in anime vs cartoons. How can you justify watching Avatar and being 25 years old in a nation whose collective tolerance of cartoons hasn't gotten past Scooby Doo and the Flintstones?
"It's an anime."
"Oh, anime. Yeah, that crap..." And they just shake their heads and know "anime isn't for kids, but..."
And that's just the basics of it.

Of course, Avatar isn't anime but I believe we've made that perfectly clear by now.
Is it about style? Hell no. It really is about location. This can backfire on anime purists because ask yourself this.
What if a cartoon... let's use this one, a modern classic
What if this show were made entirely in Japan? But it doesn't change much? The animation is the same. There are no extra cuts. No exaggerated camera angles. Japanese voice actors, maybe, but besides that, there are NO æsthetic changes, not even to the music.
It's anime... but how!? Some anime fans scream. The characters frell up all proportion! The girls aren't sexy! Er... the characters don't have huge eyes and make chibi expressions! How can this be anime?
Because it's from Japan, man! It's an animated show from Japan. AKA, anime. Style doesn't necessarily have anything to do with it. When you speak of anime, you speak of Japanese cartoons. You might have to use an animation that doesn't follow "traditional" anime tropes to understand this.

Now, manga? I think I'd accept that there is a manga style as opposed to comics (since the two haven't mixed like anime and cartoons) and that manga can be produced worldwide, but I'm not sure. And further complicating this is that, as I said, personal styles may differ.
Teen Titans's style looks a lot different from Baccano or Fullmetal Alchemist. If they had gone 'Full Anime', then it could have been more confusing and more worthy of debate.

Re: The old Argument: What defines what anime is?

Originally Posted by Clayton_n

I think it's more about style, not where it's made. That's a bit racist. There are too many line crossings like America like Empowered (whose creator also worked on Dirty Pair), Ninja Highschool (whose creator was Japanese but living in California),

Tell me about Ninja High School. It sounds familiar. Was it sexy? Was it a comic Book?

"Let us enjoy the Rain together. My Umbrella is always open for you. Knowing me is knowing never having to say goodbye. It never stops raining, does it?"

Re: The old Argument: What defines what anime is?

Tell me about Ninja High School. It sounds familiar. Was it sexy? Was it a comic Book?

Ninja Highschool was an American produced manga a decade or two back made by a Taiwanese imigrant names Ben Dunn.

Other examples of American Manga artists would be Adam Warren and of course Megatokyo's Piro/Fred Gallager.

Anime is a lot like sex. Done right it's a beautiful act of creation that brings a little more light into the world. If it's sick and wrong... it's even better.
Author of "How to Be an Anime Character" and "Lesbian Fairy Tales" available from Amazon.com

Re: The old Argument: What defines what anime is?

@Clayton_n Dirty Pair is an anime/manga. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dirty_Pair The comic that you linked was a recent remake by Dark Horse Comics. Those comics are done by Toren Smith and Adam Warren, but the original novels were created by Haruka Takachiho and Yoshikazo Yasuhiko and the manga was made by Haruka Takachiho and Hisao Tamaki. Not to mention the old Dirty Pair and Dirty Pair Flash are animes as well. Though they were licensed by the Americans and Canadians, they were produced and directed by the Japanese.

Good ol' Dogs never Die, they just keepin on livin' till their time comes.

I was born in AF Chat, molded by it, I didn't see AnimeForum until a few years after I decided to register my username.

Re: The old Argument: What defines what anime is?

How about "Nightschool"?

Anime is a lot like sex. Done right it's a beautiful act of creation that brings a little more light into the world. If it's sick and wrong... it's even better.
Author of "How to Be an Anime Character" and "Lesbian Fairy Tales" available from Amazon.com

Re: The old Argument: What defines what anime is?

Technically it should be based on Japan. But eh, the argument is dumb and lost. If they can't get over it too bad.

Japan jacked the Disney style of big eyes, which he agreed with.

So the fact that hes still going on about what is "anime" and how we're stealing the "anime" style is retarded, because hes already agreed they stole it from us, so realistically American cartoons now are just stealing a style from the Japanese who stole it from Disney....so...we're stealing an art style from our biggest animation studio.

Re: The old Argument: What defines what anime is?

Originally Posted by Ωmega

Japan jacked the Disney style of big eyes, which he agreed with.

So the fact that hes still going on about what is "anime" and how we're stealing the "anime" style is retarded, because hes already agreed they stole it from us, so realistically American cartoons now are just stealing a style from the Japanese who stole it from Disney....so...we're stealing an art style from our biggest animation studio.

Honestly... Everything's jacked from everyone. Every artist has a style they develop whether it's from free-hand, tracing, or copying various other styles that they enjoy. Even down to the ol' Political cartoons. But you are right, it's a moot point regardless.

Good ol' Dogs never Die, they just keepin on livin' till their time comes.

I was born in AF Chat, molded by it, I didn't see AnimeForum until a few years after I decided to register my username.

Re: The old Argument: What defines what anime is?

Anime is a lot like sex. Done right it's a beautiful act of creation that brings a little more light into the world. If it's sick and wrong... it's even better.
Author of "How to Be an Anime Character" and "Lesbian Fairy Tales" available from Amazon.com

Re: The old Argument: What defines what anime is?

Anime is a lot like sex. Done right it's a beautiful act of creation that brings a little more light into the world. If it's sick and wrong... it's even better.
Author of "How to Be an Anime Character" and "Lesbian Fairy Tales" available from Amazon.com