Here is an article which examimes the question of why there are no great women artists. Of interest to me is the way society's traditional notions of what constitutes great art have either been modified or abandoned in order to create the illusion that woman are as good at art as men are. This parallels what has happened in the spiritual field, wherein the very concept of enlightenment has been radically altered in order to create the illusion that women have as much potential for wisdom as men .

jimhaz, If you were as anti-woman as David would you like to be reffered to as a woman with a beard. I think not. Being called a woman is the ultimate insult for a misogynist such as David. Think of the full context before you jump on other peoples statements. This shows a clear lack of insight on your part. Think it through.

btw Do something about that God-awful picture wil you? Do you really want to look like David. ;)

It is pointless trying to attack David with insults. Read at some later stage your comment would have been read as I did.

In any case the fact that you are willing to make that statement even if just sarcasm for the purpose of attack, creates in me a sense that you view yourself as superior to women. I canâ€™t explain why.

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Yes is time to get rid of the picture. It is starting to annoy me as well.

jimhaz, you're point is well taken. I will edit my post so it doesn't contain the controversial reference, and I apologize if it offended anyone.

Quote:

Quote:<hr>In any case the fact that you are willing to make that statement even if just sarcasm for the purpose of attack, creates in me a sense that you view yourself as superior to women. I canâ€™t explain why.<hr>

The same could be said about your picture. I have to admit that when I first saw it, I thought you were a misogynist who was using it to mock women. Your posts, however, indicate otherwise. FYI I don't consider myself superior to women. I think to view oneself as superior to others on any basis is stupid. We all have faults and I'm no model for perfection that's for sure. Though, I see how my remarks can give off such an impression. Therefore, I will remove it.

Quote:<hr> I think to view oneself as superior to others on any basis is stupid. <hr>

So when you wrote on another thread:

What kind of a man are you? Not only are you a misogynist but a hypocrite as well. Might I add that you are a spirtitual eunuch. I take back what I said about you being a pathetic human being. You are beyond pathetic.

<span style="color:white;">David: Of interest to me is the way society's traditional notions of what constitutes great art have either been modified or abandoned in order to create the illusion that woman are as good at art as men are.</span>

This is a fairly idiotic conclusion, since exactly the opposite is the case. Society's traditional notions of women's art were detrimental to the arts and to women. Artists with breasts were simply not recognized or tolerated by the patriarchy. For example, female painters in the late nineteenth century did not have the freedom to walk the streets, frequent the cafes, and live the life of a painter. Luckily this has changed.

<span style="color:white;">David: ...the question of why there are no great women artists...</span>

What kind of a man are you? Not only are you a misogynist but a hypocrite as well. Might I add that you are a spirtitual eunuch. I take back what I said about you being a pathetic human being. You are beyond pathetic.

You weren't believing yourself to be superior to me? <hr>

No. I was admonishing you and placing a value judgement for the fake you clearly are. You abandon all your moral obligations to search for some "Ultimate Reality" and try to pause yourself off as some kind of religious figure and preach your prejudices to others. That is how ever your choice, but a fool hardy and self serving one that is ultimately self-defeating. It doesn't make you inferior as much as it makes you the author of your own misfortunes due to your inferior course of action.

At first it was mostly just a joke picture, as like you when I was first here I rejected most of the principles that the QRS believe in, but then after reading a bit of Weininger I found it to be a reflection of the feminine/masculine traits that we all share, so I left it there. It is a reflection of the male/female confusion that the topics discussed here create in people.

I also used it because it put people offside a bit. So from peoples reaction to it, I could quickly get a sense of how emotionally minded they were.

It was also a statement of low self-regard, so it was a picture saying I could laugh at myself.

This forum has made me change the way I look at things, so now I will have to find something else. I think a white background with a crack running thought it might be the go or some icon that signifies my mind remains whimsical. Ahh! just thought of something else that might suit â€“ hope I can find a jpeg. Edited by: jimhaz at: 1/27/04 1:12 pm

Quote:<hr>This is a fairly idiotic conclusion, since exactly the opposite is the case. Society's traditional notions of women's art were detrimental to the arts and to women. Artists with breasts were simply not recognized or tolerated by the patriarchy. For example, female painters in the late nineteenth century did not have the freedom to walk the streets, frequent the cafes, and live the life of a painter. Luckily this has changed.<hr>

I agree Thomas. This thread is a tale told by an idiot and signifying absolutely nothing.

Sure. But I don't make judgments based on differences in gender, race, ethnicity or sexual orientation either. That would be stupid. Rather, I judge each individual I meet, man or woman, on their mental qualities, level of understanding and values. That is what interests me most as a philosopher.

The fact that I have a generally low opinion of women, in terms of their mental and spiritual qualities, is borne out of many years of experience and observation of women in the world. That is to say, it is borne out of repeatedly judging individuals of both sexes in terms of their mental qualities, level of understanding and values, and finding over and over again that women are seriously lacking in these areas. It's a reality I can't ignore, even though I know that articulating it makes me terribly unpopular.

Greatness, greatness, greatness. What is it with the fixation on superiority and supremacy? Why must everything be 'deep,' 'lofty,' and 'grand' with you? If the greatest artists happen to be men, does it mean that female artists can only produce rubbish? Have you no appreciation for diversity and differences in taste? A woman (or a man) may paint something tommorow on the back of a tin can which speaks to me far more than the Sistine Chapel ever can, no matter how large the concensus for the greatness of Michaelangelo. There is a lot more room for difference in this world than you want to allow.

Don't worry David, females are not nearly so smug or happy as you think:

Adolescent boys and girls understand, if adults have forgotten, that the adolescent experience is markedly different for boys and girls, and that the overall experience, with some exceptions, favors boys. When young adolescents are asked whether advantages lie in being male or female in todayâ€™s culture, boys win hands down. One recent study of 2000 middle-school students in five states asked them to describe the best thing about their gender. [17] Both girls and boys in the survey agreed that boys can do more and are viewed as better, while the boysâ€™ responses regarding their advantages fell into two categories: â€œWe can do more things,â€ and, â€œNot being a girl.â€ â€œBoys clearly saw themselves as able to do more, to be more active in sports, have more fun and more opportunities,â€ while the most common responses of the girls when asked the best thing about their gender were distressing: â€œI donâ€™t know.â€ â€œCanâ€™t think of any.â€

And asked the worst thing about their gender, middle-school girls commonly replied, â€œI donâ€™t get to do boy things.â€ â€œMen donâ€™t think we can do anything.â€ â€œPeople donâ€™t think we are as good as boys.â€ â€œBeing ladylike.â€ â€œGetting treated unequally.â€â€™ When the boys were asked what was the worst thing about their gender, their most common answer was especially telling: â€œNothing.â€ [18]

Don't worry David, females are not nearly so smug or happy as you think

It is hardly surprising Birdy. As young females in the way they chat with each end up 'festering' their emotions. They make more of them than they need to. They do this because it excites them and it is something they have in common, and they think is a way of being superior to boys.

<span style="color:white;">David: Thomas, Do any these female artists possess the greatness of a Michelangelo or a Picasso?</span>

Well, greatness is culturally construed, so there are few female artists who have been idealized as much as those artists you mentioned. It's a result of male dominated culture. That's one thing. Another thing is that female artists fought an uphill battle which put artificial (social) constraints on artistic development.

Until recently, painting was a male niche. But, look at music. Singing has long been a socially accepted role for females. If you want to talk about "greatness" then let's look at this particular niche where females are allowed. It's not that only SOME of the "greatest" singers are female. There is approximately a 50/50 ratio and that is exactly what you would expect in the absence of artificial social constraints.

If the opportunities and achievements of both men and women were placed on a scale, men on the left, women on the right; the scale would balance out perfectly.

Do you all see what I just did right there? I pulled a David style argument. There is no evidence, only conclusions. Most likely, half of everyone will agree with that, and the other half wouldn't. Yet, if I actually gave supporting evidence, I'm sure more would be swayed to whatever was deemed logical.

Personally, I've seen women artists as great. Men are great too. There are subtle differences, but if you look at modern painters, there are probably just as many women as men, and I'm positive all are just as good as the other.

If the opportunities and achievements of both men and women were placed on a scale, men on the left, women on the right; the scale would balance out perfectly.

In the most basic sense that could be true, but only as we are all born to women. On the other hand, many great achievers had masculine minded or neglectful mothers, or fathers with above average wisdom, so what does that tell you.