The absence of a normal block animation is high on my bug list. It'll be a very quick and simple thing to deal with, and will most certainly be in Beta 2.

Quote:

Originally posted by Kettch Artifex,

I like this mod very much...at last saber fighting is as it should be.
This whole system is great!

I just played it with bots and tested the blocking system. My question is, that you technically block, but you don't use the blocking animations at all. I stood there with light stance and blocked all incoming attacks (technically), but I didn't see any blocking animations as you can see in SP. My question is, can you make the MP game actually use the SP blocking animations when you block attacks? That would be great...

Block - You take no damage, and the enemy saber continues on it's normal path.

Deflect/Parry - You take no damage, and the enemy saber is redirected slightly, opening them up to counterattack.

Knockaway - You take no damage, and the enemy saber's momentum is thrown back on itself, resulting in a huge hole opening up in their defenses.

Quote:

Originally posted by CoreyGH So, basically, we don't really have to change our saber tactics to much, we just have to aim better, right?

Another question. What is the difference, between a Block, Deflect (same as parry?), and knockaway. I'm not looking for definitions of the term, I'd like to know what happens in-game when each of those things happen. Who has the advantage in each of those situations?

Unfortunately, no. The CS Crosshair itself is 100% client-side code. Without it, no one would be able to see the crosshair. Sorry, but I think the crosshair's probably worth the whopping 520kb download.

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Originally posted by blackfire Artifex

I'm running your mod on my server and I was wondering, is the mod a server side mod or do my clients need to have it to?

The reason I ask is, I would like to extract the pk3 like you can with Vulcan Adminmod so my clients don't have to download it when they connect.

Sorry man, but the CSC's being visible to everyone is here to stay. It's the most valuable piece of visual feedback in the HUD.

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Originally posted by keo718 Excellent mod. I hate it when bums just hack away and actually win duels. My only question, can the second crosshair be toggled on or off? If not can that option be added to the next version? Its a good practice tool, but when in multiplayer it adds an unfair balance. More experience saberists know instinctively how to pick their shots, while newbies would simply rely on the crosshair.

Originally posted by ArtifeX Block - You take no damage, and the enemy saber continues on it's normal path.

Deflect/Parry - You take no damage, and the enemy saber is redirected slightly, opening them up to counterattack.

Knockaway - You take no damage, and the enemy saber's momentum is thrown back on itself, resulting in a huge hole opening up in their defenses.

Artifex:

Questions - if I'm using Red stance, would I have enough time to attack in a Deflect/Parry situation? Or how about Knockaway? I guess another way to ask is, what's the most damage-dealing stance one can use in a Deflect/Parry, and in a Knockaway?

Artiflex,
I really like what your intending to accomplish with this Mod. I've played a bit the last couple of evenings and have found sabering has that "on the edge of your seat feeling" to it. I've played Heretic 2 quite a bit and have been waiting for patches or Mod to provide similar control to JK2. You've made some very nice improvements.

I've petitioned Raven regularly for better control of defense, but instead they gave no control over defense and somewhat excessive blocking. The CSC is an excellent idea and adding levels of defense to the different stances makes a lot of sense.

Here are some ideas for your consideration (they maybe a bit too complicated and convoluted but I'll list them anyway). You could take defense one step further by adding "context sensitive" saber blocking (not other weapons) as a modifier to increase the strategic nature of saber duels.

Example: (not necessarily in this order or to this degree but as a general idea)

Standing stationary, ducking or walking facing opponent = High-defense-modifier for blue stance, Medium-defense-modifier for yellow/red (standing stationary could have an even greater arc than 180 degrees but would be susceptible to kicks).

The movement-defense-modifier could be added/subtracted to the CSC value check or there could be a change in the defensive arc - increasing or decreasing depending on movement context.

This might also help fix the combo-attack susceptibility that currently exist with the ProMod. A combo could maintain a defensive arc relative to direction (not facing). As blue stance is combo dependent this might help balance it up to yellow and red stance. In other words allow a degree of forward directional defense while executing a combo.However, successfully counter-attacking an opponent executing a combo would jam their combo attack as a block and knock-away instead of applying damage.

Another way to help blue stance out a bit would be to add a "jam attack" or block attack i.e. if a blue stance horizontal slash is executed successfully while an opponent is in mid swing then a high defense(block) modifier would be triggered.

The CSC could even provide offensive and defensive value "feedback" simultaneously. Maybe the line could become thicker the greater the defense or more broken (dashed lined) the less the defense.

I personally would like to see the CSC more clearly! maybe as a thick translucent ring.(translucency slider as well?)

JK2 focused primarily on offensive attacks and left defense as a random blanket requiring little skill. The only thing that could be added to offense is the ability to bind all saber swings to specific buttons regardless of direction (excluding special attacks) while still maintaining the default "context sensitive" attack system. Players would most likely develop a personal style using only a few of the binded attacks. I use a programmable controller that allows me to execute any attack while moving in any direction and it definitely adds depth to game play. More control means added strategy.

I do have one request - make Red (all?) stance(s) a one-hit-kill vs a gun user, even at 200/100. By the time a saber user gets past the gunners HR secondary, Golans, Rockets, and (if force is on) Force powers, and is actually able to get to the gunner who'se using force speed/jump to stay away, if the saber user is still alive, he ought to be rewarded with a one-hit-kill swing (assuming he connects, of course).

Correction on server side, IDS took down ProMod today due to the fact that it is not being used on OGL *cough horse****, too many complainers cough*. Also announcing that I am detagging from their program as well.

Now, for answers of the night...

Quote:

Artifex,

I do have one request - make Red (all?) stance(s) a one-hit-kill vs a gun user, even at 200/100. By the time a saber user gets past the gunners HR secondary, Golans, Rockets, and (if force is on) Force powers, and is actually able to get to the gunner who'se using force speed/jump to stay away, if the saber user is still alive, he ought to be rewarded with a one-hit-kill swing (assuming he connects, of course).

Why bother with red stance. It is safe to assume that the gunner will be backpedaling, and the red stance swings are even slower than the backpedal. Too much of a risk as well on the defensive side. A gun that shoots fast can tear a red user to pieces. Blue or yellow make good gun pursuit styles, I have found.

1. You asked about simpler "aura" models for when absorb, rage, etc are used. Why not use the Ylssmarri "sphere"(?)

2. Pushing or stealing sabers. That Toss-pull bug is totally lame. Zero defence against it. I don't mind the toss itself, or even force speeding PAST your opponent, then spinning around and pushing him into it, though---at least that takes *some* skill.

This third one is more philosophical:

3. Kicking. People that have invested allot of time in learning the nuanges of kicking may be turned off by some of what you have done. I understand where you are coming from in the readme, but, from someone who has some martial arts background, and, understanding that Lucas intended the jedi style to mimic Kendo and the Asian martial arts, I don't where discriminating between fwd and side kicks gets it's logic from. I can tell you with a certainty that either can break ribs (seen it happen).

My point, I guess, is this. If someone can aim a good pull/push/side kick, why discriminate? Double tapping does give you a ranging capability, but, once again, so what? It's like picking between a roundhouse, axe, or front kick in Tae-Kwon-Do each has different range and power. If someone is retarded enough to charge a superior kicker over and over again without changing their tactics, isn't that the definition of insanity? The CSC takes the randomness out of it, no?

I also see the point that someone else made about jumping over ledges, or into walls with "one tap kicking" on. You tend to flip off it, rather than cruise up it like you do with the double-tap model. I had a very hard time with that myself. I see both sides to the agruement, but then, I played Quake before John dropped Pushlatency and client side prediction into these engines, so the double tap kicking thing doesn't really bother me up to 200ms ping.

Anything I would implement would be client-side only to avoid people using the yoda model to avoid getting hit. Still, I have to prioritize the game balance code before i can start adding window dressing.

You could always make the model scale a protected feature. Let the admin decide weather to allow/disallow yoda (scaling), and then again whether to allow/disallow players ability to change the scale.

In the beta 1 code, which is what everyone's currently using, the answer is no, you wouldn't. In the newer Beta 2 code that I am working on right now, yes you would have the time to counterattack.

I think everyone will be pleased with the blocking and deflection code in beta 2. It's almost exactly like single player now, but is of course, completely reliant on the CSC (your skill).

Quote:

Originally posted by Sabre9

Artifex:

Questions - if I'm using Red stance, would I have enough time to attack in a Deflect/Parry situation? Or how about Knockaway? I guess another way to ask is, what's the most damage-dealing stance one can use in a Deflect/Parry, and in a Knockaway?

Originally posted by Cyris Id have to say this is a great mod and it will avoid losing the fluke duel every now and then.... but what does it do to the n00b who blue spams. I dunno if this mod if gonna give that annoying little hoe an advantage or a disadvantage. It sounds great all and all but if he can aim that blue spam slightly i think its just a way to give ythr noob the advantage.

Well its been great. FOR ME TO POOP ON!

I played many duels against a blue lunge spammer. The answer is this....

Medium stance, let him lunge, block, then counter, let him lunge, then block, then counter. Repeat till dead takes about 2 - 3 hits. IF done correctly you should take little or no damage. Make sure you keep your aim on him, AIM IS LIFE. Have a nice day

And in a couple days a I will have a CTF server running promod as well.

I would badly like to see the most current version of adminmod integrated into this. Forget the jedimod stuff.

Thanks for running ProMod, hawk.

Is there a feature list you'd like to see from adminmod? While I won't be doing code-merges with any other mods right now, I am definitely willing to add some functionality to ProMod beta 2 that'll help out admins. Let me know.

Im a IDS member like Rad mentioned, Promod was taken off the server which im really teed off at. .

Anyways. Your mod rules, and anyone who says otherwise can go home .

, I noticed that when I went back to a 1.04 server after playing promod for a couple of days that I could beat people in duels that I never could before!!!! . I noticed my overall skill increased ALOT. Maybe its just me but thats what Inoticed

If you got a problem, dont complain, take action.

nOOb=Annoying person, new to the game, who dosn't bother to learn the game patiently.

Newb=A very content person who wants to learn the game, and has the patience to do so.

Neo: Please edit your post and remove the reference to the bug please! We don't need more people finding this out right now. This is already fixed in Beta 2 and working perfectly, so don't worry. If you find anything else like this, please just PM it to me. Thx!

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Originally posted by NeoTyranus hey Artifex

One thing is a MAJOR bug that needs to be fixed ...

On the very upside, I noticed that when I went back to a 1.04 server after playing promod for a couple of days that I could beat people in duels that I never could before!!!! . I noticed my overall skill increased ALOT. Maybe its just me but thats what Inoticed

I posted this in the "Hows the promod?" thread but i'll put it here too to make sure Artifex sees it.

The animations sound like they will improve the mod greatly but i have another suggestion to improve it. I was wondering if could you could look into including some more visible crosshairs for the mod. I don't know if its only me but i've always hated the jk2 crosshair especially when its red, too often i find myself losing sight of it in the heat of battle (yes i have good vision). I could live with it before but since this mod is so dependant on aim it is VERY important to have an extremely visible crosshair to ensure you can keep track of it at all times, the extra circles in promod do help but i still don't find it visible enough for my tastes. If i had it my way i would change the blurry white crosshair into a more solid white colour and the red part i would change to a bright green or something. I'm not saying you should outright replace the current colours cause i'm sure many people like em the way they are, but perhaps you could add some additional crosshairs for the user to chose from? possibly as a menu option or via the console? or maybe someone could code an RGB crosshair mod similar to Tchouky's RGB saber mod, highly unlikely but would be the bomb.

Originally posted by Deetox187 I posted this in the "Hows the promod?" thread but i'll put it here too to make sure Artifex sees it.

The animations sound like they will improve the mod greatly but i have another suggestion to improve it. I was wondering if could you could look into including some more visible crosshairs for the mod...

I've seen about 8 or 9 other crosshairs that are actually already in the official version of the game. They're most likely accessible from the console somehow, but I haven't a clue what the console command is.

I'm also going to add some console commands to control the beginning (weak aim) color and end (strong aim) colors of the CSC, as well as their transparency. That'll allow you to really up (or lower) the visibility of it. That might be all you need.

Is there a feature list you'd like to see from adminmod? While I won't be doing code-merges with any other mods right now, I am definitely willing to add some functionality to ProMod beta 2 that'll help out admins. Let me know.

I think if you added the above features, servers admins could really run tight ships, and really provide more control and professionlism when it comes to running competition servers and the like. And BTW I'd like to see them done in this order if not all at once. Not having Multiple duels is the thing that sucks the most for us FFA duelers. Again I'd like to see the whole adminmod implemented.

Everything other than I have mentioned you could consider to be outside of bounds and only used on "fun" servers...Like JediMod servers... but anyway, just stick to those 6 things and all should be well. But later a adminmod integration sure would be nice.

One last note, I know you we're primarily a 1.02 man, but the double tap kick. I hated it at first, but now after two patches I'm very used to, and find it very intuitive double tapping for forward kicks. I think someone else said, it kind provides a sort of "ranging" effect to it. I dunno I'll adapt either way, but I tended to like double tap kicks more. I think everyone but the 1.02 guys do too....

*Bugs*
It seems it is possible at times to strike close enough too someone to hit them from behind while standing in front. Very minor bug though, as most of normal times it's hard to get that close to someone without gettting beat on to hell yourself... This is a bug in 1.04, I kinda figured not to see it with this, but at the very least it seems very minimal. Anyone who would try to exploit this would be foolish.

Server crashing has happened to me three times already. Now crashing in and of itself is not too terribly unusual. But it seems since I've started running this mod, it's far more frequent. I have yet to get 10 straight hours of uptime with this mod in place.. No errors in my logfile just a shutdown.... It could be your mod, it might not be. but just FYI.

Lag, again maybe just a me issue, but it seems since I put the mod up the lag is a bit worse... Could just be me. And the only solution seems to be to bump the server up to a maxrate of 10000. This is even with a small player group. My only thought is CSC calculation puts more burden on the connection. I dunno if you don't see more lag happening because of your mod, it was probably just me lastnight.

At any rate I just want to make sure I get any and all issues out with you at this point.

Originally posted by Rad Blackrose Why bother with red stance. It is safe to assume that the gunner will be backpedaling, and the red stance swings are even slower than the backpedal. Too much of a risk as well on the defensive side. A gun that shoots fast can tear a red user to pieces. Blue or yellow make good gun pursuit styles, I have found.

I was afraid pro-gun people would balk at Blue or Yellow getting one-hit kills, so I thought I'd compromise and say Red, the slowest of the stances. Also, giving it to Red would make the most sense, since its also the strongest.

But yeah, if I had my choice, it would be ANY saber swing vs a gun user would be a one-hit kill, even at 200/100. You able to close with a gun user? You should be rewarded.

I've seen about 8 or 9 other crosshairs that are actually already in the official version of the game. They're most likely accessible from the console somehow, but I haven't a clue what the console command is.

I'm also going to add some console commands to control the beginning (weak aim) color and end (strong aim) colors of the CSC, as well as their transparency. That'll allow you to really up (or lower) the visibility of it. That might be all you need.

Yea i know about the other crosshairs, they're all the same colours which makes them all equally useless. But these console commands you speak of sound almost exactly what i was hoping for, thank you very much.

I think if you added the above features, servers admins could really run tight ships, and really provide more control and professionlism when it comes to running competition servers and the like. And BTW I'd like to see them done in this order if not all at once. Not having Multiple duels is the thing that sucks the most for us FFA duelers. Again I'd like to see the whole adminmod implemented.

Everything other than I have mentioned you could consider to be outside of bounds and only used on "fun" servers...Like JediMod servers... but anyway, just stick to those 6 things and all should be well. But later a adminmod integration sure would be nice.

One last note, I know you we're primarily a 1.02 man, but the double tap kick. I hated it at first, but now after two patches I'm very used to, and find it very intuitive double tapping for forward kicks. I think someone else said, it kind provides a sort of "ranging" effect to it. I dunno I'll adapt either way, but I tended to like double tap kicks more. I think everyone but the 1.02 guys do too....

The extra range you got from the double tap kick was just way too powerful. The kick itself was unblockable, then you add the ability to hit at a greater distance than even the longest saber swing. Sorry, but unblockable long-range melee strikes aren't going to be coming back in ProMod.

Quote:

*Bugs*
It seems it is possible at times to strike close enough too someone to hit them from behind while standing in front. Very minor bug though, as most of normal times it's hard to get that close to someone without gettting beat on to hell yourself... This is a bug in 1.04, I kinda figured not to see it with this, but at the very least it seems very minimal. Anyone who would try to exploit this would be foolish.

It's just the effects of lag. Sometimes gaps in the update process can do some odd things, like seeming to allow saber strikes to hit outside their range. When the connection is stable, these things rarely happen.

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Server crashing has happened to me three times already. Now crashing in and of itself is not too terribly unusual. But it seems since I've started running this mod, it's far more frequent. I have yet to get 10 straight hours of uptime with this mod in place.. No errors in my logfile just a shutdown.... It could be your mod, it might not be. but just FYI.

There's been no other reports of servers crashing while running ProMod. Keep me updated on whether this continues to happen. The fact that it was happening without ProMod leads me to believe that your box doesn't like jk2 for some reason.

Quote:

Lag, again maybe just a me issue, but it seems since I put the mod up the lag is a bit worse... Could just be me. And the only solution seems to be to bump the server up to a maxrate of 10000. This is even with a small player group. My only thought is CSC calculation puts more burden on the connection. I dunno if you don't see more lag happening because of your mod, it was probably just me lastnight.

At any rate I just want to make sure I get any and all issues out with you at this point.

Don't worry, the CSC calculations don't affect the network bandwidth or messaging in the slightest. Both the client calculation and the server calculation are done 100% independent of the other.

1. Red DFA, I know your current stance is that it should be unblockable, but listen to this..

I was trying to think of the realities of a DFA. And it seems to me, that okay fine make it blockable, but it ought to do more when blocked. There's just so much force behind it, that someone certainly couldn't just take the hit without a flinch. I think, that if you DFA someone if they are blocking perfectly, that should cause maybe 5 hp of damage, and a knockdown. like if you we're kicked. Somehow that makes alot of sense to me if it worked like that. At least something so when blocked leaves a huge gap in your defense. Maybe not enough for the attacking DFA er to utilize. but still it should leave a big defensive gap.

2. Lose your saber when you throw. Don't touch anything else about it, except make it so when someone blocks a throw the saber drops to the ground like in single player. and then you lose it for a couple seconds something. I don't think damage tweaking is the answer here. I've thought for a long time now, that if there was more risk involved in the manuever any issues with it, would solve. Your mod makes this all the more possible. So a bad throw lands you, at least 2 seconds with no saber, and wide open for anyone.

Woohoo, great mod! I have just one suggestion/question. Would it be possible to slightly increase saber damage against ppl using guns? For example, a medium style attack does 55 dmg against ppl using sabers and 75 dmg against ppl using guns/unarmed? Imho, this would bring about a bit more balance between guns and sabers for us ppl who still dm. Thanks!

Originally posted by ArtifeX Describe the sequence of moves to me and I'll see if I can duplicate it.

Doesn't get any more simpler then that. I think what he is trying to describe is a front flipkick, starting the heavy swing motion in the air, and rolling the swing into a DFA as soon as he touches ground.

Originally posted by taboo Woohoo, great mod! I have just one suggestion/question. Would it be possible to slightly increase saber damage against ppl using guns? For example, a medium style attack does 55 dmg against ppl using sabers and 75 dmg against ppl using guns/unarmed? Imho, this would bring about a bit more balance between guns and sabers for us ppl who still dm. Thanks!

Originally posted by ArtifeX Is there a feature list you'd like to see from adminmod? While I won't be doing code-merges with any other mods right now, I am definitely willing to add some functionality to ProMod beta 2 that'll help out admins. Let me know.

I'll probably be putting up a ProMod CTF server once I get the 1.5Mbit(up) Upgrade to my server line later this month.

With that in mind, here's some stuff that I'd like to see:

1. Make a server option that makes the "kill" command take a few seconds to execute. While most ppl are honorable about it, Many people use this to deny people ledge-push-kills or grip-kills in CTF games. This would effectively "nerf" the lame factor out, while still allowing for it's intended use (the occasional "2 player spawn-stick" or "I'm stuck in a map bug and can't get out").

2. Add messages to the server messaging system that credits people for:

- Returning the flag a few second before the capture
- Counts an enemy kill within a certain distance from the flag or carrier as a defense, and
- One that gives you the "HOLY ****!" credit for returning the flag within 10ft of the enemy's flagpole.

Adding messages to the logs for these items will allow stats coders to devise scoring schemes more tailored to CTF games (right now almost all of the stats packages are DM-based in terms of score/rank placement). If you need anything on this one, I can put you in touch with Zoid (the original threewave/id programmer for CTF). He's working at a gamecube developer in Austin now. While he won't know JK2 code explicitly, he'd probably have some good pointers for you, if needed.

3. Add a switchable typekill warning that would allow admins to autokick people that kill typers that have been in a messagebox more than "n" seconds. Some serverops would like this, others would probably choose to disable it.

Just my $0.02.

Thanks,

Noctroglyph
(Formerly ^Drag0n^ of the now defunked qwcentral.stomped.com)

Err, one more question. Won't bots be pretty evil while playing this mod seeing as how they always aim straight at you when you are their target? This will make much more likely that their saber attacks break your defences and their defence block your attacks, will it not?

Originally posted by ArtifeX The extra range you got from the double tap kick was just way too powerful. The kick itself was unblockable, then you add the ability to hit at a greater distance than even the longest saber swing. Sorry, but unblockable long-range melee strikes aren't going to be coming back in ProMod.

That is EXACTLY what I was talking about. It ISN'T unblockable. There's absorb. Push. Strafe. Or a strong axe/light lunge as they come at you.

Or you could just plain duck/roll.

I kickduel allot of people and I've found that many of the people that dislike kicking haven't invested significant time in looking at counters (not referring to ArtifeX here, just in general), and, in general, don't use alot of the movement options they have available to them. I'm sure some may disagree, but that is what I've found.

Couple that with the inability to pull-kick when the target is crouching and there are at least 4 different ways to counter a kick. Adding the CSC factor makes the kick even harder to execute, balancing it out.

I guess I fail to see the evils in a move that was allowed in the game originally, featured 3 times in the original films during saberfights, and takes *5* consecutive hits to kill an opponent with.