I'm not a Pali scholar, but I have a question. In the Ajata Sutta Norman and DeGraff translate (I believe the Pali word is asamuppannaṃ) as either "everlasting" or "permanent."

What do the Pali scholars here think of this translation? My gut is to say the word should probably be translated as "timeless," or "beyond time." The only Pali-English dictionary entry I could find said, "wrong time."

This said by the Blessed One, the Worthy One, was heard by mein this way: "Monks, there is freedom from birth, freedom frombecoming, freedom from making, freedom from conditioning.For, monks if there were not this freedom from birth, freedom frombecoming, freedom from making, freedom from conditioning,then escape from that which is birth, becoming, making,conditioning, would not be known here. But, monks, because thereis freedom from birth, freedom from becoming, freedom frommaking, freedom from conditioning, therefore the escape from thatwhich is birth, becoming, making, conditioning is known."

This meaning the Blessed One spoke, it is spoken here in this way:

That which is born, become, arisen, made, conditioned, And thus unstable, put together of decay and death, The seat of disease, brittle, Caused and craving food, That is not fit to find pleasure in.

Being freed of this, calmed beyond conjecture, stable, Freed from birth, freed from arising [asamuppannaṃ], freed from sorrow, Freed from passions, the elements of suffering stopped, The conditioning [of greed, hatred and delusion] appeased, This is ease [bliss].

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond.SN I, 38.

Ar scáth a chéile a mhaireas na daoine.People live in one another’s shelter.

tiltbillings wrote:This said by the Blessed One, the Worthy One, was heard by mein this way: "Monks, there is freedom from birth, freedom frombecoming, freedom from making, freedom from conditioning.For, monks if there were not this freedom from birth, freedom frombecoming, freedom from making, freedom from conditioning,then escape from that which is birth, becoming, making,conditioning, would not be known here. But, monks, because thereis freedom from birth, freedom from becoming, freedom frommaking, freedom from conditioning, therefore the escape from thatwhich is birth, becoming, making, conditioning is known."

This meaning the Blessed One spoke, it is spoken here in this way:

That which is born, become, arisen, made, conditioned, And thus unstable, put together of decay and death, The seat of disease, brittle, Caused and craving food, That is not fit to find pleasure in.

Being freed of this, calmed beyond conjecture, stable, Freed from birth, freed from arising [asamuppannaṃ], freed from sorrow, Freed from passions, the elements of suffering stopped, The conditioning [of greed, hatred and delusion] appeased, This is ease [bliss].

Is this your own or is this from someone?

I think I'm interested in the word translated by you as "stable." I believe the word is "dhuvam." Why is "stable" chosen here rather, than, say, "continuous," or "permanent"?

Mine, at the end of four years of Pali study in the South Asian/Buddhist Studies Program at the University of Wisconsin, Madison. Also, ther reality is that if you don't use it, you loose. Where I was in the late 80's with Pali, is not where I am now.

I think I'm interested in the word translated by you as "stable." I believe the word is "dhuvam." Why is "stable" chosen here rather, than, say, "continuous," or "permanent"?

The word was carefully chosen. As worldling we are not stable; we are easily upset by our passions and all that happy stuff. The arahant is not upset, but is, rather, stable, being free of greed hatred and delusion. Like anything, how the word is to be translated depends upon the context. Also, I wanted keep any hint of metaphysics out of it. I think unstable and stable fit nicely in the flow of words/ideas being presented in these verses.

That which is born, become, arisen, made, conditioned,And thus unstable, put together of decay and death,The seat of disease, brittle,Caused and craving food,That is not fit to find pleasure in.

Being freed of this, calmed beyond conjecture, stable,Freed from birth, freed from arising, freed from sorrow,Freed from passions, the elements of suffering stopped,The conditioning [of greed, hatred and delusion] appeased,This is ease [bliss].

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond.SN I, 38.

Ar scáth a chéile a mhaireas na daoine.People live in one another’s shelter.