Friday, January 11, 2008

James White Responds to Zakir Naik

In this short video, James White points out an important problem in Christian-Muslim dialog. Muslim arguments against the Deity of Christ are often so weak that Christians don't feel the need to rebut them. As an example, James presents some of Naik's arguments against Christ's Deity. James goes on to show that even though Naik horribly misrepresents the texts, Christians need to respond.

43 comments:

It's funny how James White claims that Muslim arguments are not that convincing. It never crossed his mind that we think the absolute same way in regards to the arguments of Christians.

Zakir Naik didn't demand that the exact phrase "I am God, worship me" be shown. He is just stating that this is the case and then he goes on to say that Jesus no where claims divinity. The fact that Jesus did not claim divinity in a clear sense is something us Muslims find suspicious.

Also, accoriding to Malachi, the nature of God is not supposed to change and the Old Testament is filled with examples of God declaring his Lordship clearly. Why couldn't His nature remain consistent in the New Testament and do the same thing?

Zakir Naik quotes verses which clearly and unambiguously show that Jesus is a man. why can't Christians do the same by showing us verses where Jesus clearly claimed divinity?

James White says that Matthew 11 shows that Jesus knew specific things about the father and claims that Surah 5:116 says otherwise.

Matthew 11 does not tell us about how much of the Father the Son knows. obviously, Prophets would know things about God which ordinary human beings do not. Prophets would only know these things when informed by God. James White has failed to show how Matthew 11:27 shows that Jesus is omniscient independently or how God letting him know certain things about Himself that others don't would make Jesus divine.

Surah 5:116 shows that Jesus does not know what God is thinking. Well, in Mark 13:32 Jesus claimed that no one knew of the hour except the Father. So we can safely say that this is one thing that Jesus did not know which was going through the Father's mind.

James White states then that Jesus did things that no mere human being can do. Well, obviously Jesus was a Prophet who did miracles. so what?

As for Jesus accepting the worship of others go here http://wings.buffalo.edu/sa/muslim/library/jesus-say/ch1.2.4.3.html

As for James White's misunderstanding of Surah 3:65, go here http://www.call-to-monotheism.com/does_the_quran_affirm_the_teachings_of_paul_

James White tries to address the issue of John 14:28 by quoting it in its context, yet I fail to see how he resolved the argument. He is talking about previous glory that Jesus had with the Father. i think he is referring to John 17:5, whose refutation could be found here http://www.biblicalunitarian.com/modules.php?name=Content&pa=showpage&pid=106

He claims that most Muslims haven't read the Gospel of John. Well, I read it and so have others and we still fail to see the justification of your twisting of the alleged statements of Jesus.

We read a clear cut verse in John 17:3 where it is clearly stated that the Father is the only true God and then Jesus differentiates himself from the Father. When, I can't find a verse as clear as that where Jesus claims divinity, what do you expect me to think?

Also notice James White's fallacy in reasoning. he said that no Prophets ever made the claim 'I and the Father are one' So basically, if no previous Prophet made that statement in those exact words then that means no Prophet ever affirmed its concept. thus he argues that Jesus said something uniquely divine.

Regarding the 'i and the Father are one' argument go here http://www.biblicalunitarian.com/modules.php?name=Content&pa=showpage&pid=102

regarding Naik's argument about Jesus using the spirit. I would agree that it is not a powerful argument, however it is a supporting argument. for we continuously see Jesus doing miracles with the help of someone, never on his own. this is good circumstantial evidence that he wasn't God and independent of anyone to do miracles. Then Christians will claim that the Trinity teaches that the different persons in the Godhead work together. This is a convenient way of getting out of the argument. We Muslims are suspicious for we continuously see Jesus being dependent and never independent. We need to see evidence of both if he truly was both God and man at the same time. Until now, we only see evidence for his humanity and not deity. so Christians have only proven 50% of their case.

James White says that the Jesus of the Bible should be introduced to Muslims. Well don't worry, I am helping out Christians doing just that when i ask Muslims to visit the following sections of my website...

You missed the point of James's response. He wasn't saying, "These arguments aren't convincing to Christians." He was saying, "Anyone who knows anything about Christianity knows that these arguments are horribly, factually flawed."

Hence, when we hear people like Zaik and Deedat acting as if they have carefully studied Christian theology, and we immediately realize that they have made no attempt at all to understand the Christian view, are we not entirely justified in dismissing their arguments?

We read a clear cut verse in John 17:3 where it is clearly stated that the Father is the only true God and then Jesus differentiates himself from the Father. When, I can't find a verse as clear as that where Jesus claims divinity, what do you expect me to think?

And here we have a prime example of the sort of argumentation that Dr. White had in mind.

Here is your unspoken argument Bassam: if Jesus were God, then He would not have called the Father, "the only true God." If the Father is the only true God, then it must require that Jesus cannot be God.

So, in reality, you're not doing anything but assuming what you must prove from the text.

The claim is positive, that the Father is God, not negative that Jesus, by implication is not God. He was not denying His own divinity, but affirming the Trueness of God as was done in the OT: “And now, O Lord our God, deliver us from his hand that all the kingdoms of the earth may know that Thou alone, Lord, art God,” (Isaiah 37:20). John is, of course, riddled with allusions to the OT like this, specifically to Isaiah, but you don't seem to realize this. Dr. White is right here. We're the ones who take the time to familarize ourselves with your beliefs, why can't you be bothered to do the same with ours?

Jesus is ascribing the source of life to the Father. The next verse is epexegetical to this one. The Father is here addressed, as the representative of the Godhead. The Godhead that sent Christ is distinct from the person of Jesus Christ; but the person sent was nevertheless divine. His divinity, though not affirmed in the passage, may be inferred from the fact that the knowledge of him was necessary to eternal life.

We expect you to do some basic exegetical homework, to familarize yourself with basic exegesis, to at least consult some standard commentaries before making such obviously facile and fallacious arguments.

We have another example here:

He is just stating that this is the case and then he goes on to say that Jesus no where claims divinity.

Of course, the "ego eimi" statements found in John are all recapitulating statements found in, for example, Isaiah 41 and 43, where "ani hu" is used for "I am" where the reference was to God Himself. Jesus is put on trial by the Jews not for claiming to be the Christ but for blasphemy, specifically claiming to be God. So, Bassam, you're left to argue one or more of the following:

1. The text is simply wrong about the accusations of the Sandhedrin. However, to say that depends on an argument that Jesus did not claim divinity. So, on the one hand you're saying the text is inaccurate with respect to one thing (the accusations) and accurate for another (the claims). That's schizophrenic.

2. The text has been tampered with. This requires you to know what the autograph looked like. We'll wait for you to produce the evidence. You'll need to rely on liberals' argumentation here, but if you do that, you'll have to be consistent and apply their theories to your own sacred text.

Zakir Naik quotes verses which clearly and unambiguously show that Jesus is a man. why can't Christians do the same by showing us verses where Jesus clearly claimed divinity?

See the previous response. Also, some of them are couched with the overall trajectory of a theme called "the Messianic secret." Jesus does not claim divinity "directly" in many places because he is depicted as withholding some information about Himself and His mission from his wider audience. Again, you'd know this already if you would bother yourself to do the research.

The actions of Muhammad and his 'rightly guided' Caliphs confirm beyond a reasonable doubt, the offensive intent of the wars, treatment of those who reject islam and other teachings of Muhammad. In the same way, the doctrine of Jesus as Incarnate Son of God (a complex/advanced term to comprehend, without doubt) is believed by all the followers/disciples/apostles of Jesus and is the central doctrine of the early church established by Jesus and his disciples/apostles. The NT and all the available first century documentation points to this. So, on scriptural and historical grounds, it is almost impossible to reject the doctrine of Incarnation (again a question of seeing the overall/full picture, instead of poor exegesis of coming to predefined conclusion by picking a verse here and there).

In the video clip you can clearly see how Zakir was showing of with scripture references just to make the gullible audience think that he knows all the Scriptures and its meanings. He is actually making a fool of himself by intentionally lying to the audience by referring to verses that have been taken out of context.At the best I can say he is a good performer and an eloquent speaker.

But Jesus would be a foolto say "I am God"and just think what you would do in that situation either you would ignore him for a fool or be a fanatic and stone him to death.

God after having a great slumber for 600 hundred years suddenly realizing there is some confusion among his prophet and the people and then questions Jesus in Heaven as to what did he say about himself to the people ......"did you say take me and my mother ......"

You want to know the mind of mohammed and his actions then live among the tribal Bedouins.

aslamoalaikum everyone i just want to TELL FRANK THAT UR KNOWLEDGE IS VERY POOR AS FAR AS MUHAMMAD(PEACE BE UPON HIM). HE WASNT FROM A BEDUOIN TRIBE.HE WAS FROM A NOBLE FAMILY WHO USED TO TAKE CARE OF KA'ABA EVEN AT THAT TIME. THE ROMAN EMPEROR SAID WHEN HE WAS INVITED TO ISLAM THAT HE WAS AWARE THAT A PROPHET IS NEAR TO COME BUT WASNT AWARE ARABS R GOING TO B EXALTED . N U SHUD B PROUD FRANK THAT WHEN JIBRAIL CAME TO TELL OUR PROPHET(P.B.U.H) THAT HE IS CHOSEN AS THE MESSENGER OF ALLAH NONE OTHER THAN A CHRISTIAN PREIST WARQA BIN NOFEL CONFIRMED N CALMED HIM(P.B.U.H)N FORECASTED SOME OF THE INCIDENTS OF HIS LIFE THAT WERE MENTIONED IN BIBLE. BUT AS IT IS APPARENT THAT U R JUST TRYING TO HAIL OFF EVERY EFFECT N OUT OF NOWHERE GAVE A RUDE STATEMENT. MAY ALLAH GUIDE U N ME TO THE RIGHT PATH.

"But Jesus would be a foolto say "I am God"and just think what you would do in that situation either you would ignore him for a fool or be a fanatic and stone him to death."

So Jesus would be a fool for claiming to be God because you would ignore him or kill him? Well I will assume your use of second person pronouns was mistaken and pressume you were talking about what a first century zealous group of Jewish Monotheists would do in response to the situation.

Firstly killing him would be highly unorthodox by this time as Rome took away the power of the Sanhedrin in A.D 7 to "stone" anyone to death. Infact that is the reason why the Jews had to appeal to Pilate! because they had no authority to take his life legally.

Secondly since Jesus DID communicate he was God to them AND they UNDERSTOOD IT THAT WAY:

"I and the Father are one. The Jews picked up stones again to stone him. Jesus answered them, "I have shown you many good works from the Father; for which of them are you going to stone me?" The Jews answered him, "It is not for a good work that we are going to stone you but for blasphemy, because you, being a man, make yourself God. " John 10:30-34

You MIGHT want to retract that comment about Jesus being a fool.

HOW Jesus communicated he was God is irrelevant, HE DID! and they PERCEIVED IT like that.

Therefore it certainly was not foolish to tell them the truth even with life threatening circumstances or being dismissed as a nut! Obviously Jesus was not concerned with his peronsonal saftey or his social status amongst these Jews over proclaiming his Divinity (atleast in the P.O.V of the Gospel of John).

just.. wow.. i like how white says zakir naik takes words out of context to fulfill his own needs, when JAMES WHITE HIMSELF DID THE SAME FREAKIN THING. haha. if you watch zakir naik's full video, he explains everything in DETAIL. and its also funny how white says "muslims dont have convincing arguments" when his own strongest arguments arent even clear. they are all: "it COULD mean this" guess wat? it COULD also have another meaning. if you want to hear the REAL lecture by zakir naik, follow this link (delete the spaces, since it cuts links off)

http://youtube.com/ watch?v=aJOn4lFV kIw&feature=related

watch the WHOLE lecture and then decide. its long, but so is the bible. and zakir naik did read it, and so have many muslims. infact, my brother has a bible in his car right now,

also, does it not say in the bible jesus himself said that if u want to entire salvation, keep the commandments? isnt that the complete opposite of christians claim that jesus died on the cross for your sins? that itself sounds illogical. if he died.. then he cant be God. God cant die. even if he did die on the cross for your sins, than wat message is that sending? its ok to sin, we are already forgiven? how illogical.

also, since its so "obvious" that jesus claimed divinity and the bible is so correct, then y is keep being modified? srry, but in islam, our quran doesnt need modification, its already perfect.

ok, maybe im only a 15 yr old girl, but thats my understand of all this. forgive me if my understanding is wrong,=)

It's a good thing you are only 15. You have a chance to figure out what the heck you are talking about, if you make an honest attempt. I suggest you take some time to study Christian theology from a CHRISTIAN point of view (rather than a Muslim one).

You actually have to understand what we believe before you can make a meaningful criticism or rejection of it.

I suggest you start by looking up a logical fallacy known as a "Straw Man", because you are simply repeating the Straw Man arguments you have heard from Naik, Deedat, etc. The things you are talking about are not even what Christians believe.

Have the integrity to be honest and sincere, by seeing Christian beliefs through Christian eyes. Study what Christians themselves believe FIRST, then worry about refuting it.

When it is clearly stated certain piont then why do we need views?? Christian view or Islamic view?? When Jesus PBUH said in Bible my father in Heaven does it mean a copy of GOD is in heaven and other is in front?? If a group of law makers says "in the point of rejection" we are all one. Does it mean they are actualy many persons out of one person??? No need for any viewes here. Its is clear and Dr Zakir is telling exactly the same that why christian view is wrong when everything is clear???

reply to momo: you said most of the stuff mentioned is wat Christians dont really believe.. you are telling me that you guys dont believe in all of the stuff in the bible.. i find that quite funny, since that is our source if wat we THINK Christians believe.. please enlighten me of the extras you believe in..

ok, if it looks like im dissing Christians.. im not, i have plenty of christian friends and hey, i live in america..

and about zakir naik, getting a 2 mins clip and say zakir naik is just spitting out verses, is just lame.. so lets leave zakir naik out of it..

In the Hebrew Bible/Old Testament references of GOD as Yehovah amount to 6500 for The name of the Supreme being. How many times is it documented in the New Testament or any of the earliest christian literature of the apostolic age that Jesus was called or designated the actual Hebrew word Yehovah.

If the early christians did indeed believe he was Yehovah, he would have been referred so as many times as GOD made references of himself in his previous book(OT). Even if you say they used a greek alternative for Yehovah then how many times was Jesus referenced as Yehovah in greek. Please dont bring the term Lord as all biblical scholars are agreed that the term Lord was used for Men of great authority. And David is also called Lord in the previous scripture. I want to know the absolute title of the supreme being, Yehovah. Why was Jesus never ever called Yehovah in the entire New Testament and even with no Greek word of the equivalent title. A name which GOD Almighty referenced himself six thousand times and over.

You have presented an argument that when applied consistantly to the Quran refutes Islam, hence this is not argumentation that any Muslim can use.

Here is how your argument refutes Islam:

The Quran NEVER calls Allah by the tetragramaton (YHWH). So, by your own argumentation Allah is disqualified as the God of Abraham.

(oops! the god of the Quran fails your test of true divinity...unless you can show me where the Quran calls Allah Yahweh...I mean after all, it is used over 6,000 times in the Old Testament, if Allah is claiming to be the God of Abraham it has to be there)

I suggest you drop this argument Luhar (unless you are not a Muslim, in which case nevermind).

Luhar said: "Even if you say they used a greek alternative for Yehovah then how many times was Jesus referenced as Yehovah in greek."

Your whole claim seems to be based on a complete lack of familiarity with linguistics, and a lack of familiarity with the text you are discussing.

The Greek terms for the God of Abraham are "Theos" and "Kurios". Simply look at the Septuagint (Greek Old Testament) and you will see an abundance of usage of these two terms. Both terms are used numerous times in reference to Jesus. I am surprised you did not know this already, considering this is a question you say "Christians can never answer", which implies you have asked it many times. It is actually answered quite easily.

I DONT UNDERSTAND WHY ALLAHA SHOULD BE CALLED AS "Yehovah", DO U HAVE ANY IDEA ABT WHOM UR TALKING abt, "Yehovah" IS THE KING OF THE JINS, WHO LIVES UNDER HOLLOW EARTH, a place OFTEN KNOWN As SHANGRILA, OR SHAMBALA, REFER TO REAR ADRIMAL BIRD's flight overnorthpole, he was from U.S.A WHO ACTUALLY MET HIM.

and ALLAHA is a unique name which our all christan brothers/sisters, underdeveloped minds cannot compherend the very existence of ALLAHA & the word ALLAHA.

Abt Dr.Naik, is there anybody on this planet who can & is willing to debate with him, can pope of Rome? or Dala-i-lama ? James White dosent have crediblity to debate Dr.Naik, let him first debate with his students, then we can see.

IT IS CLEARLY PROVED BY DR.ZAKIR NIAK THAT JISAS(PBUNH) IS NOT GOD . BROTHER THE CRISTAN ARE ALWAYS TRY TO FOOL US IT IS THEIR BY BORN NATURE . THEIR RELAGION IS DEVILS RELAGION . THEY WILL NEVER EXEPT THE TRUTH . DON'T WEST YOUR TIME ON THEM . ISLAM HAS THE ONLY SOLUTION FOR HUMANITY.

well zakir is great. Evey time he tries to prove that Christianity is wrong n Christians r wrong. Christians(mostly) dont even bother to answer him. Zakir what a man he says Jesus is not God but a man but wt abt the son of God

Christians oof it will seem strange to u that they follow:1)a person who has committed no sin 2)a man who has the authority to forgive sins3)a man who has the authority to perform miracles4)a man who raised the dead5)a man who claimed "I am the Way,the Truth & the Life"6)a man who drove out the demons & in His name still the demons are driven out7)a man who claimed 'who can find a sin in me'8)a man who remained unmarried9)a man who said that there must be 1 spouse only for men & for women10)a person who says to help in such a way that wht ur right hand gives let not ur left hand know11)a person who said 'before Abraham was born I was there'12)a man who said 'if someone slap on ur right cheek let him slap ur left cheek too' i.e not to take revenge13)a man who gave order to winds & waves & they obeyed Him14)a man who walked on the waters15)a man who was born of virgin Mary16)a man who is called 'the Word of God' i.e. Issa Rooh Allah17)a man who will judge the world 18)a man who was crucified for the sins of mankind 19)a man who rose on the 3rd day of His death20)a man who is still alive & is knocking at the door so that u may open the door (not by force) & He enters ur heart & life to make u newThere are many more to say abt the person Christians follow but 1 important point is :With Him there is no fear. He is a very polite leader if u wish u can accept Him if u want to laeve u can leave him with no fear of physical death as is imposed by Islam

DR . ZAKIR NAIK CLEARLY STATES VERSES FRM D BIBLE NOT OUT OF CONTEXT ,WHEN QUESTIONERS QUOTE OUT OF CONTEXT HE CORRECTS THEM! AND AS HE SAYS THERE IS NOT A SINGLE UNEQUIVOCAL IN THE BIBLE WHERE JESUS CHRIST(PEACE BE UPON HIM)"HIMSELF" CLAIMS DIVINITY!

Tell Zakir Naik, that he is pathetically foolish, and that he knows NOTHING, and that I WISH i was present there - to refute him IN FRONT of all the believers of Islam, that they ALL would EMBRACE the LORD JESUS CHRIST.

Luke 6:5

<< Luke 6:5 >>

Then Jesus said to them, "The Son of Man is Lord of the Sabbath."

It better be VERY CLEAR to you that the " Sabbath " is GODS law. Jesus called himself the LORD of GODS law. WHO can have the authority to be LORD over GODS law?!!??!?!

The answer is in the statement itself!!!

GOD is the GOD of GODS law

GOD is the LORD of GODS law

Therefore JESUS claimed to be the GOD of the LAW of GOD!!!!!

======================================

John 14:6-9

John 14:6-9

6Jesus answered, "I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me. 7If you really knew me, you would know my FATHER as well. From now on, you DO KNOW HIM and have SEEN HIM."

8Philip said, "Lord, SHOW us the FATHER and that will be enough for us."

9Jesus answered: "Don't you know ME, Philip, even after " I " have been AMONG YOU such a LONG TIME? Anyone who has seen ME has seen the FATHER. How can you say, 'Show us the Father'?

In this passage - JESUS UNEQUIVOCALLY, and UNDISPUTABLY claimed to be GOD!!!!

reply to Seoul , he is telling Jesus is god . if Jesus is god what is the father then,if the father is god what is the son then , partners in ruling . and only the foolish people like you can accept chistianity having illogical and brainless beliefs which are taught by Satan and devils to you and your anchesters who are also the true followers of Satan as you are . As you are always insulting Islam and the great prophet Mohammed without having any knowledge . And being jealous of the prophet Mohammed (pbuh) .In the whole history no body was killed if he didn't accept Islam you all are liars . and all of you are jealous of this true religion because you all are empty vessels and all empty vessels sounds too much without reason .

hai...let me tell that nothing is impossible for god.Christian also belive in one god.father send his part(son) to the earth for sin of the man kind as a real man.in human thought it may not be possible but it is easy for god.he can do any thing.one who argue that it is not possible should also agree that god have limit in his powerdoes god know only one language? no ,then why we calling in arab?so jesus called him as father. jesus can only make us son of god..through his blood and flesh.

hai...does god only know arab ? christian also belive in one god.father send his part(son) to the earth for the sake of man kind.if you argue that it is not possible then you have to agree that god have limit in his power.god is one who is have no limit .for him it is is possible.in human thought it may not possible to crusify jesus.so make himself as a man. he lived as a man. he show the human how to live with god. this make many to think that he only man.does you hand belong to youeven if it separated from you? it yours. it is u r part.if it again join in your body again along with hand it is your body.jesus died and waken for human.

16Simon Peter answered, “You are the Messiah, the Son of the living God.”

17Jesus replied, “You are blessed, Simon son of John, because my Father in heaven has revealed this to you. You did not learn this from any human being. 18Now I say to you that you are Peter (which means ‘rock’),f and upon this rock I will build my church, and all the powers of hell will not conquer it. 19And I will give you the keys of the Kingdom of Heaven. Whatever you forbid on earth will be forbidden in heaven, and whatever you permit on earth will be permitted in heaven.”

ANYWAY as the Bible was written centuries after JESUS there is not point on even arguing as we can imagine how many things can change in few centuries.The QURAN was written during the life of The Prophet Muhammed and COMPILED after his death in a book ( The Quran)

LOL! The Bible was written "centuries" after Jesus??? Funny how the people who have done the least amount of studying are the quickest to explain things to those of us who have studied!

So tell us, Sara, which Biblical scholar told you that the Bible was written centuries after the time of Jesus? You didn't get this from a scholar, did you? You probably heard it from your Muslim friends, and you don't even bother to investigate!

week later his disciples were in the house again, and Thomas was with them. Though the doors were locked, Jesus came and stood among them and said, “Peace be with you!” 27Then he said to Thomas, “Put your finger here; see my hands. Reach out your hand and put it into my side. Stop doubting and believe.”

28Thomas said to him, “My Lord and my God!”

29Then Jesus told him, “Because you have seen me, you have believed; blessed are those who have not seen and yet have believed.”

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