I define perfection as "without flaw, by any measure, from any perspective." When we fail to measure-up by some self-destructive egoic put-down, we feel guilt and shame. And we all know how effective our dysfunctional egos are at finding flaws.

Perfection is impossible, of course, especially in human endeavor. But excellence is possible, and, as emphasized in "Buddha's Brain," very important to recognize in ourselves, but particularly in others.

Andy

A person is not a thing or a process, but an opening through which the universe manifests. - Martin Heidegger
There is not past, no future; everything flows in an eternal present. - James Joyce

Sighclone wrote:I define perfection as "without flaw, by any measure, from any perspective."

I guess I don't see perfection as being particularly relevant from other than the perspective in which the human experience was designed. Anything from within the system itself is seen from such a limited understanding, and based in judgment, both externally and internally, that such opinion is just so much expressed pain.

But, if one can imagine that the system itself was designed for the evolution of consciousness of the greater reality, one's true nature, then this physical experiential system, with all its potential for exploration through limited identity perspectives, then a whole different approach to one's life experience may be considered.

Sighclone wrote:
I define perfection as "without flaw, by any measure, from any perspective

As you also wisely note, nothing is flawless from every perspective or by every measure!
Nothing is worth the measure we give it, because worth doesn't really exist. It is a figment of our judging minds, an imaginary yardstick to measure the imaginary value of imaginary distinctions, & one more way we withold ourselves from the whole enchilada of life that lies before us. Maybe when we intimately engage with life, we discover the priceless in the worthless; find complete fufillment in being unfilled. Maybe then, we luxuriate in the sublime perfection of what we formerly regarded as "imperfect!"

I think of the Japanese aesthetic of Wabi Sabi, which values the imperfect, impermanent, and incomplete. Usually applied in visual contexts, Wabi Sabi may also more broadly encourage a life that finds beauty where conventional seeing finds ugliness; character and depth where others see "flaws." I am moved by the joyful embrace Wabi Sabi extends to much of what cultural norms deem "imperfect." I personally delight in it's invitiation to challenge conventional perspectives and listen to the heart.

Sighclone wrote:But excellence is possible

Yes, and I love what Tolle says about giving everything we do "quality attention." Excellence surely springs forth from efforts grounded in present moment awareness. A life of caring results. Our efforts may be humble- not at all grand, big or splashy, as we devote loving attention to people & pets, home and garden, work and craft. But, while offering quality attention to the most minute details, and the utterly ordinary tasks that mark our days, we surely honor life and care for the core of our being, our very soul. What could be more excellent (or more perfect)?

Thank your for your comments. I am reminded of Adya's paraphrasing Seng-ts'an, the Third Patriarch of Zen in China - ca 600CE: "One sign of awakening is lack of concern about imperfection."

An excerpt from Clarke's translation is:

Each thing reveals the One,
the One manifests as all things.
To live in this Realization
is not to worry about perfection or non-perfection.
To put your trust in the Heart-Mind is to live without separation,
and in this non-duality you are one with your Life-Source.

The Heart of Relationship
Awakening to the truth of perfect Unity, means to awaken from the dream of a personal self and personal others to the realization that there is no other. Many spiritual seekers have had glimpses of the absolute unity of all existence, but few are capable of or willing to live up to the many challenging implications inherent in that revelation. The revelation of perfect unity, that there is no other, is a realization of the ultimate impersonality of all that seems to be so very personal. Applying this realization to the arena of personal relationships is something that most seekers find extremely challenging, and is the number one reason why so many seekers never come completely to rest in the freedom of the Self Absolute. Inherent in the revelation of perfect unity is the realization that there is no personal me, no personal other, and therefore no personal relationships. Coming to terms with the challenging implications of this stunning realization is something that few people are willing to do. Because realizing the true impersonality of all that seems so personal, challenges every aspect of the illusion of a separate, personal self. It challenges the entire structure of personal relationships which are born of needs, wants, and expectations. It is in the arena of personal relationships that the illusion of a separate self clings most tenaciously and insidiously. Indeed, there is nothing that derails more spiritual seekers than the grasping at and attaching to personal relationships.
The revelation of perfect unity reveals the true impersonality of all relationships. The ego always interprets “impersonal” as meaning cold, distant, and aloof. However, “impersonal” simply means not personal, or void of a separate me and a separate you. The mind cannot comprehend of a relationship without separate entities. Much as a character in a dream cannot comprehend that all other dream characters are simply manifestations of the same dreamer. Yet when the dreamer awakens, he instantly comprehends that the entire dream, and all the characters in it, were none other than projections of his own self. In the dream there is the appearance of separate, personal entities in relationship, but upon awakening one comprehends the impersonal (non-separate) Self that is the source of all appearances.
To deeply inquire into the question “Who is another?” can lead to the direct experience that the other is one’s own Self - that in fact there is no other. However, I have seen that for most seekers, even this direct experiential revelation is not enough to transform the painfully personal ways they relate. To come to this profound transformation requires a very deep investigation into the implications inherent within the experiential revelation that there is no other. It is in the daily living of these implications that most seekers fail. Why? Because, fundamentally, most people want to remain separate and in control. Simply put, most people want to keep dreaming that they are special, unique, and separate, more than they want to wake up to the perfect unity of an Unknown which leaves no room from any separation from the whole.
There is a powerful tendency in most spiritual seekers to avoid probing deeply into the implications inherent within profound spiritual experience and revelation, because these implications are always threatening to the sense of a separate self, or ego. It is the implications inherent within profound spiritual revelation that demand the transformation of the apparent individual.
Inherent within the revelation of perfect unity is the realization that there is no other. The implications of this realization reveal that in order to manifest that unity in the relative world, one must renounce the dream of being a separate self seeking to obtain anything through relationship with another. Indeed, personal relationship appears to happen in the relative world, but in reality, all appearances simply arise as temporary manifestations of a unified whole. In the relative world these appearances are in relationship, but not as separate entities. Rather, they are the play of the one Self projecting itself as apparent entities in relationship to one another.
As long as you identify yourself with the projection of separateness, you will continue to deny that you are the Source of all projections. When you truly and absolutely awaken to this fact, and comprehend the overwhelming implications inherent within this awakening, you will continually experience that all apparently personal relationships are in truth nothing other than the play of your Self. To realize that the personal me is an illusion born of false identification with the body, thoughts, and emotions, brings a profound sense of freedom. This is fundamentally the realization of emptiness, of what you are not. But contained within the realization of emptiness (formlessness) is also the realization of what you ARE. In the most absolute sense you ARE this conscious emptiness which is the source of all appearances (existence). But you are the appearance as well. Not just one part of the appearance called “me”, but all of it , the entire whole. This is the challenge, to let your view get this vast. To let your view get so vast that your identity disappears. Then you realize that there is no other, and there is nothing personal going on.
Contrary to the way the ego will view such a realization, it is in reality the birth of true love. A love which is free of all boundaries and fear. To the ego such uncontaminated love is unbearable in its intimacy. When there is no clear separating boundaries and nothing to gain the ego becomes disinterested, angry, or frightened. In a love where there is no other there is nowhere to hide, no one to control, and nothing to gain. It is the coming together of appearances in the beautiful dance of the SELF called Love.
To the seeker who is sincere, an experiential glimpse of this possibility is not enough. If you are sincere you will find it within yourself to go far beyond any glimpse. You will find within your Self the courage to let go of the known and dive deeply into the Unknown heart of a mystery that calls you only to itself.

Adyashanti, posted to AdyashantiSatsang by Bob O’Hearn

From NDHighlights Digest Number 1475[/quote]

Hi all, really enjoying this thread, far out all this reading is like blowing my head up! Im getting exhausted but all good. Sometimes when I read this stuff I feel im better off than I think I am, like with relationships. If I was in one with a girl, Id be too busy playing a role to have time to look within!

The truth in this is scary, it means I have been wrong for a long time!
Enjoying what you bring to the threads Sighclone.

Wonderful post Webwanderer.I have only days ago accepted the pain I suffer due to large dosage of antipsychotics and I never felt better while still having sidefects and as a result I am more in the now. I also feel peace.The pain is dissolving.

Years ago I started reading Eckhart Toole but it wasn't til only a few days ago that I have put his teachings to practise. My ego was holding me back by seing the system as my enemies but all that has changed now. I am also looking at everything else differently.

Leonard Jacobson wrote:When we are in the world of the thinking mind, we are somewhere in the remembered past or the imagined future. We are in a world of thought, memory, concept, idea, opinion and belief. We are not here now. What we are experiencing is not the truth and reality of the present moment.

The truth and reality of that present moment is that our awareness is exploring the symbolic realm. Here's why...

In the real world, we are incredibly small and reality is incredibly huge. We have to compromise constantly with the environment, our bodies, other people etc.

In the symbolic world, we are like gods. We can order the symbols around in to any order that we wish, and create any "reality" our minds can imagine.

In the real world I am some nerdy old guy wasting time typing pointless sermons on a tiny net forum that almost nobody reads. In my symbolic world I am skinny dipping with Diane Lane under the stars on the beach at Malibu.

The symbolic realm offers a level of control over our experience that will never be possible in the real world. This might interest readers here, given that you are typically ABSOLUTELY OBSESSED with controlling your psychological experience.

This is not to disparage the wonder of now, nor disrespect Jacobson's excellent description of it. I know that now is the topic of this forum and that readers (including often myself) feel the now is a "one true way". But to keep us honest someone should ask...

Why are we, you and me, here in the entirely symbolic realm of a net forum instead of meditating?

Leonard Jacobson wrote:In a very real sense, the past is intruding into our experience of the present moment, coloring and distorting it. All those limiting beliefs and painful experiences of the past adversely affect our experience of life.

It's surely true the past and future color and distort our experience of the present moment. But the past and future, the symbolic realm is not accurately described as being only "limiting beliefs" and "painful experiences" which "adversely affect our experience of life". It can be that, and the opposite too.

Everything you know about Tolle and the present moment came from the past. And you are attempting to project this past in to the future. If you are going to discard the past and future, this entire forum needs to be immediately flushed down the toilet.

The present moment becomes the very foundation of your life.

Except that it doesn't. Jacobson and my fellow readers are all projecting the past in to the future simply by discussing any of this, a process which seems to have become the real foundation of their life.

I ask readers yet again, if the present moment becomes the foundation of your life, why does Tolle feel the need for money, power and fame?

The present moment is very clearly a necessary psychic food, but it is ridiculous to propose we will sit at the table all day every day eating it.

As you awaken, your experience of yourself and the world will dramatically change. Fear, anxiety and conflict disappear as you enter into a world of love, peace and abundance.

Future tripping bunkum. This is really the heart of what's wrong with New Age mumbo jumbo, the desire to make the changes permanent, to project them in to the future, instead of being happy with them when they happen in the NOW. Remember now? The Power Of Now? Anybody read that book???

You come to know yourself as LOVE. You encounter the living Presence of God within you and within everything around you. Separation dissolves as you enter into Oneness. This is what is meant by enlightenment. It is what Buddha spoke of. It is what Jesus spoke of. It is what Lao-Tzu and Krishna spoke of. It is what God promised to Abraham.

None of us, repeat none of us, are going to become Buddha, Jesus, Lao-Tzu, Krishna, or Abraham. It may indeed be true that such rare individuals have extraordinary insights, but they are so far out at the end of the bell curve as to be irrelevant to us.

What we are is ordinary everyday regular normal little people who are somewhat neurotic and more than a little obsessed with ourselves. Being that way got us in to some kind of trouble and so we went looking for a solution and found Tolle. Tolle can help us manage our very ordinary little situation, and that's great. There's no need for all the dreamy greedy becoming trip stuff, that's the ailment, and NOT the cure.

The first and most essential step is to know, through your own experience, the awakened state of Being. It is a state of profound inner silence, peace, stillness and Oneness...

The first and most essential step is to stop bullshitting ourselves, as it's foolishness to build one's home upon a pile of lies.

The second step is to come into right relationship with certain aspects of yourself including your ego, your thoughts and your feelings. You must bring the energy of love and acceptance to every aspect of yourself. All judgment of yourself and others must end if you are to awaken into the truth of life.

The second step is to face the fact that you are never going to bring love and acceptance in to every aspect of your relationship with yourself and others, and to accept being a human being. Yes we can manage being a human being, no we can't transform who we are at a fundamental level. If you want to wake up, wake up to that. If you want to accept, accept that.

The third step is right understanding.

The third step is to accept that the problem you are trying to solve does not arise from the content of thought (something you can change), but from the nature of thought (something you can't change). Thus, the endless quest for understanding and insight (editing the content of thought) is largely a waste of time, except for it's entertainment value.

Jesus started a religion explicitly about love and peace and bringing people together. And no sooner did people start thinking about this religion than they divided in to factions and started killing each other. If Jesus can't invent a religion (content of thought) that can overturn the nature of thought, I assure you, you can't either. Even Baba Bozo can not do such a thing!

We are souls on an extraordinary journey.

Never mind about this, nobody has a clue why we're here, where we're going, or whether souls even exist.

Once you know the true nature of your journey, you will begin to awaken. Everything that has ever happened in your life will suddenly make sense. You will come to regard the problems and difficulties in your life as nothing more than opportunities to learn your lessons and awaken into Oneness.

And your turds will no longer smell! Incredible!!!

The fourth step is to come into alignment with the universal laws of life. If you are to awaken fully, it is necessary to live in integrity in every aspect of your life.

Webwanderer wrote:Having a tough morning Baba Bozo? Best you stay away from sharp objects for a while.

Apologies but this is the classic New Age dishonest double talk mumbo jumbo which attempts to pose all effective critiques of the "holy becoming story" as being a personal weakness of the person offering the critique.

Or, it might be better labeled as the "above it all" defense, another common hiding place for true believers.

Truly, no offense, but you have no idea how many times His Bombastic Bozoness has seen all these little strategies and how easy it is to swat them down.

If you'd like to engage my remarks above, please raise your game to the level that we know you have. Thank you very much.

Or, any reader is of course entirely within their rights to simply ignore any typing which they find inconvenient.

You many not find it helpful. That's fine. I have, as have many others as demonstrated by the posts in this thread. He also has large following that enjoys his offerings. Value is determined by each individually. Your attempts to discredit his words says more about you and your perspective than it does about those who enjoy his work and that of others like him. You can fairly say what your experience of these teachings are but you are wholly unqualified to say what others get out of it.

If you have a better idea of living life say so. Anyone can take it or leave it as they wish. If this type of teaching is not helpful to you, move on. You can't live another's life through criticism of their interests. Living your own is challenge enough, and while you're criticizing others you miss your own opportunity for growth.

I didn't say that. I found it a helpful bit of writing to reply to. I found it accurate in some regards, and articulate throughout.

But I'm not a true believer bowing down to salute each utterance of every self appointed imaginary holy man, that's all. Nor do I request or require the same from whoever may choose to read the burpings of this self appointed imaginary holy man.

Conversation? Yes, I'm on board.

Cult? No thanks.

He also has large following that enjoys his offerings.

A large following is not evidence of wisdom or truth, but of popularity. Telling folks what they wish to hear is usually the way one becomes popular. His Most Boisterous Bozoness is typically not that popular, as his writing philosophy is as follows...

If the things we want to hear...
Could get us where we want to go...
We'd already be there.

Your attempts to discredit his words says more about you and your perspective than it does about those who enjoy his work and that of others like him.

More of the New Age double talk mumbo jumbo I described above. I don't object to anyone typing such if they don't mind me slapping it down every time they do. Their posts, their choice of course.

You can fairly say what your experience of these teachings are but you are wholly unqualified to say what others get out of it.

Then all of us are wholly unqualified to talk about any of this. As example, to follow your philosophy above, why didn't Tolle write a book which was limited to a description of his own experience? Why did he relentlessly assume throughout his books that what he experienced was relevant to all human kind?

I'm doing only what Tolle and Jacobson and all the others, including just about every poster on this forum does.

That's not the problem, or you'd be objecting to all these other writers as well. The problem is that you find the ideas expressed above to be inconvenient.

You might observe how you are not addressing the post, but the poster. This is because you see some truth in the post, but don't like seeing that truth, and so changing the subject to the poster seems easier than confronting that conflict within your own perspective.

I don't mind you discussing this poster, really I don't, this poster is this poster's favorite subject.

But you should expect me to remark upon this method of escaping inconvenient words as it arises. You appear to hold all power here, so I shall not look upon you as a victim which needs my protection.

If you have a better idea of living life say so.

I've been doing so all over the forum.

Mind management as needed, acceptance of being human, and not a fantasy becoming trip. (which if you should ponder it, really has nothing to do with now)

Anyone can take it or leave it as they wish. If this type of teaching is not helpful to you, move on.

If my type of teaching is not helpful to you, move on.

You can't live another's life through criticism of their interests. Living your own is challenge enough, and while you're criticizing others you miss your own opportunity for growth.

Mostly I have. As a moderator however I have a responsibility to the forum to maintain order and the intent of this forum. Your presence here is not required, and unnecessary agitation toward those genuinely interested in their own growth as conscious beings will be dealt with. I've already bounced one of your posts. I have no qualms about bouncing others, or you for that matter. No one here needs a savior from Tolle or Jacobson or anyone else that they find inspires their awakening. If you must save people from what you imagine is just so much bunk, consider another forum.

More changing the subject from the post to the poster WW. I agree this poster is absolutely fascinating, but readers might find it more interesting to inquire in to why any teacher or teaching needs to be protected. Who here has "awoken" enough to explore this?

If we mistakenly believe the answer is to be found in the content of thought, then we will always be vulnerable. Whatever wonderful thought content we might decide to make our "one true way" solution, there will always be somebody out there who can rip it to shreds. And they will always appear on our doorstep sooner or later.

And so if our "solution" is based on thought content, the correct idea or understanding etc, we will have to hide on forums where everybody already agrees with us.

Atheists gather on forums to share the fantasy that they are smarter than theists, each atheist feeding the fantasy of the other.

Theists gather on on forums to share the fantasy that they are holier or more saved than atheists, each theist feeding the fantasy of the other.

New agers gather on forums to share the fantasy that they are the "awoken" ones, so much farther up the holy becoming mountain than those poor sad unawoken folks down in the valley.

And so on. Every community that builds it's ego security upon thought content has to hide behind walls, and evict the blaspheming heretics within those walls, especially if the heretics are capable of mounting an effective challenge to the group delusion.

And so we might ask our dear WW, why do our fellow members need to be protected by you, when they already have full control over whether they read inconvenient posts or not, and how they will experience them if they do?

There's even a "foe" function in the control panel that allows any member to remove ALL the posts of any other member from their view. A couple of clicks, and an inconvenient poster vanishes entirely, like magic.

I found Baba Bozo's comments interesting in general and not disturbing. I can summarize what I took from her message in quoting two of her statements:

"Tolle can help us manage our very ordinary little situation, and that's great."

Precisely. Tolle caught me how to concentrate upon the Now. That changed my life for the better. I am enormously grateful to him for that.

"Nobody has a clue as to why we're here, where we're going, or whether our souls even exist."

Precisely, Baba Bozo. When Tolle moves from his practical advice into extravagant statements about humanity in general, he loses me. For example, he says, "Humans are a dangerously insane and very sick species." Tolle further claims that significant portions of humanity are escaping this insanity by changing their thinking. Where is this happening--Syria, Iraq, the United States? And how could he possibly know?

I believe Web Wanderer gave me the best advice on how to react to Tolle's teachings: Accept what you can, pass over the rest.

Baba Bozo wrote:
Future tripping bunkum. This is really the heart of what's wrong with New Age mumbo jumbo, the desire to make the changes permanent, to project them in to the future, instead of being happy with them when they happen in the NOW. Remember now? The Power Of Now? Anybody read that book???

Many people do indeed forget that NOW is the first stepping stone and I know (many) people who jump to the other teachings prior to realizing this Self. However, I disagree that it's New Age mumbo jumbo. There's much to explore in this experience. With a firm foot in presence, in understanding Eckhart's powerful, but, basic message, the free will to open and explore much more is easily accessible in my opinion.

Jesus started a religion explicitly about love and peace and bringing people together.

Technically, he didn't start a religion. He was merely attempting to convey a powerful message to the masses. However, it became interpreted into a religion later on and a dogmatic one indeed.

Never mind about this, nobody has a clue why we're here, where we're going, or whether souls even exist.

I have a big clue why we're here. And I have very little doubts anymore that we are indeed Souls (unique, but not separate aspects of the One Being/Self). The evidence to me is staring me right in the face. I'd be blind to continue to ignore it.

Granted, our understanding in human mind/bodies will always be limited to the greater nature of reality on some level, the mindset that everything is a mystery and nothing can be possibly known, seems to come from the rational/logical human mind which has a difficult time grasping anything it can't prove by its own direct limited human physical experience.....basically.....atheism.