Religious fanaticism

A shy 8-year-old schoolgirl has unwittingly found herself on the front line of Israel’s latest religious war.

Naama Margolese is a ponytailed, bespectacled second-grader who is afraid of walking to her religious Jewish girls school for fear of ultra-Orthodox extremists who have spat on her and called her a whore for dressing “immodestly.”

Anyone who calls an eight year old girl a whore should be ashamed of themselves, because their God most definitely will be.

The girls school that Naama attends in the city of Beit Shemesh, to the west of Jerusalem, is on the border between an ultra-Orthodox neighbourhood and a community of modern Orthodox Jewish residents, many of them American immigrants.

The ultra-Orthodox consider the school, which moved to its present site at the beginning of the school year, an encroachment on their territory. Dozens of black-hatted men jeer and physically accost the girls almost daily, claiming their very presence is a provocation.

No, firing guns is a provocation. Yelling whore at eight year olds is provocation. Going to school is not.

The televised images of Naama sobbing as she walked to school shocked many Israelis, elicited statements of outrage from the country’s leadership, sparked a Facebook page with nearly 10,000 followers dedicated to “protecting little Naama” and a demonstration was held in her honour. As the case has attracted attention, extremists have heckled and thrown eggs and rocks at journalists descending on town.

“Who’s afraid of an 8-year-old student?” said Sunday’s main headline in the leading Yediot Ahronot daily.

Beit Shemesh’s growing ultra-Orthodox population has erected street signs calling for the separation of sexes on the pavements, dispatched “modesty patrols” to enforce a chaste female appearance and hurled stones at offenders and outsiders.

Great to read of the response from most normal Israelis. The fanatics sound like they would be happy living with the Taliban.

Naama’s case has been especially shocking because of her young age and because she attends a religious school and dresses with long sleeves and a skirt. Extremists, however, consider even that outfit, standard in mainstream Jewish religious schools, to be immodest.

The abuse and segregation of women in Israel in ultra-Orthodox areas is nothing new, and critics accuse the government of turning a blind eye.

The ultra-Orthodox are perennial king-makers in Israeli coalition politics – two such parties serve as key members of the ruling coalition. They receive generous government subsidies, and police have traditionally been reluctant to enter their communities.

Worth remembering this story, when our own extremists advocate getting rid of a threshold for MMP, so we would end up like Israel (which has been increasing their threshold).

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Comments (138)

Other_Andy

@reid

Why isn’t Iran allowed to have the bomb? Why doesn’t MAD apply here, when it applies everywhere else in the world, including in NK?

Mutual Assured Destruction, or mutually assured destruction (MAD), is a doctrine of military strategy and national security policy in which a full-scale use of high-yield weapons of mass destruction by two opposing sides would effectively result in the complete, utter and irrevocable annihilation of both the attacker and the defender

This implies that both countries would see the death of their citizens and destruction of their own country as something negative. So would Iran be deterred by the knowledge that they will be destroyed by Israel if they destroy Israel?

This apocalyptic worldview, Mahmoud Ahmadinejad’s statements that Israel should be wiped off the map and his belief that dying for Islam is an honour and something to rejoice in might makes many people uneasy.

“Israel, the US and some European states maintain that Iran has a secret nuclear weapons program, but there is no really good evidence for any such thing if by that you mean a rush to construct an actual warhead. The real problem for Israel and its allies is that Iran’s civilian enrichment program is potentially dual-use. If Iran can enrich uranium to 3.5 percent for nuclear reactor fuel, it could in theory use its centrifuges to enrich to 95 percent for a bomb. Israel and the US don’t want Iran even to have the possibility of making a bomb if Tehran someday chooses to, since that would knock Israel down a peg on the Middle East pecking order.”

reid

Why would Iran knowing it would get obliterated from the planet denotate a nuke in Israel? Why?

To what advantage would that be knowing as I said above, MAD ensues.

None of you have addressed that simple question yet pending Tim’s response which I’m sure will be formidable but none of the rest of you Israel-firsters have. Yet. So why don’t you.

Please don’t point to speeches by individuals or general innuendo about “mad mullahs” point to policies, point to documents, any evidence which backs up your proposition which as I understand it correct me where I’m wrong, is that Iran is ruled by the Ayatolla alone and that he and other mullahs alone including Mr. Dinner Jacket control every single decision everywhere.

Point me to that evidence that Iran as a country today actually operates that way for that is the way it would have to operate before one could believe your scenario that Iran will automatically detonate, isn’t it.

Tim’s off on a Hasbara refresher course. He’ll be well primed. Look forward a wonderful example of the Monckton method: start with a lie and build on that with stunning verbosity.

Never mind the reality, feel the deception.

Anyway, time to start on my holiday reading with a little light Noam Chomsky (New World of Indigenous Resistance) and I just downloaded to my Kindle some Ilan Pappe as well (The Forgotten Palestinians – A History of the Palestinians in Israel).

reid

Other_Andy

Haredim throwing stones and none were shot?
How interesting.

And when that happens they can always protest the ‘Palestinian’ way. Put women and children in the front and young men in their late teens and early 20s, armed with rocks, sling shots, Molotov cocktails in the back.
And of course, don’t forget to invite the media in case one of those Zionist pigs tries to defend himself.
Works like a treat.

There you go again, Andy. Those Zionist pigs – your words, not mine: I would have said IDF soldiers – you talk about are not defending themselves. They are occupiers, and generally engaged in suppressing demonstrations against said occupation. Resistance to occupation is legal, within certain constraints, and most certainly peaceful demonstrations are legal resistance.

I’m sorry, but hard as I may try, I can’t dredge up sympathy for your Zionist pigs armed with the best weapons the US can supply, for free and no strings other than looking after Uncle Sam’s interests.

Other_Andy

Noam Chomsky and Ilan Pappe

Communist and anarchist.
Can I also recommend Richard Harwood, Saul Alinsky, Richard Cloward and of course Pierre Guillaume which ties in nicely with Chomsky’s ideas.
Extreme left meets extreme right.
Hitler meet stalin.
A means can be justified only by its end. But the end in its turn needs to be justified.

Other_Andy

reid

Occupying what?

The Tomb of Zoltar, Andy.

And those interests are?

According to NBC it’s unleashing the flames of hell upon humanity just because they can. It would be good if you could stop them Andy but if not hey, we all understand. Thanks for giving it a go anyway.

reid

As far as what Iran want, Ahmadinajad is a “twelver”. He believes in the coming of the Twelfth Imam, or the Mahdi. He believes that starting a war will hasten the arrival of the Mahdi. In reality, the Mahdi could be the antichrist.

From the Wall Street Journal –

Ahmadinejad constantly talks of the Hidden Imam but almost never mentions Ruhollah Khomeini, the mullah who created the present regime. Nor is Ahmadinejad keen to pay tribute to Khamenei. A man who talks to God wouldn’t bother with mere saints.
Several times a year, Ahmadinejad takes his entire cabinet to Jamkaran, a suburb of the “holy” city of Qom south of Tehran, to report to the Hidden Imam. In Jamkaran there is a well that is supposed to lead to the place where the Hidden Imam is in hiding. In a solemn ceremony, Ahmadinejad throws copies of his government’s budget and other edicts into the well for consideration by the Hidden Imam.
The message is clear: A government that is preparing for the end of times, under the command of the Hidden Imam, does not need the mullahs.

Here is a video of Ahmadinejad giving a speech at the UN saying he prays Allah would “hasten the arrival” of the Imam.

The Twelfth Imam was a real, flesh-and-blood person who lived during the ninth century AD. Like the eleven Shia religious leaders who went before him, he was an Arab male who, as a direct descendent of the founder of Islam, was thought to have been divinely chosen to be the spiritual guide and ultimate human authority of the Muslim people. His name was Muhammad Ibn Hasan Ibn Ali. It is generally believed by Shias that he was born in Samarra, Iraq, in AD 868, though few details of his brief life are certain or free from controversy. Sunnis, for example, believe he was born later. Before he could reach an age of maturity, when he could teach and counsel the Muslim world as was believed to be his destiny, Ali vanished from human society. Some say he was four years old, while others say five and some say six. Some believe he fell into a well in Samarra but his body was never recovered. Others believe the Mahdi’s mother placed him in the well to prevent the evil rulers of the time from finding him, capturing him, and killing him—and that little Ali subsequently became supernaturally invisible. This is where the term “Hidden Imam” is derived, as Shias believe that Ali is not dead but has simply been hidden from the sight of mankind—Shias refer to this as “occultation”—until the End of Days, when Allah will reveal him once again.

The entire rant about religious fanatics spitting on eight year old school girls is summed up in the final sentence:
“Worth remembering this story, when our own extremists advocate getting rid of a threshold for MMP, so we would end up like Israel (which has been increasing their threshold).”

Apparently, increasing democratic representation is a gateway to religious fundamentalism. Weird, even for someone from the far right end of the political spectrum. Although it is not difficult to see where this kind of reactionary rhetoric finds purchase when reading some of the comments posted here.

Israel, regardless of its system of proportional representation, will be the master of its own demise. Without massive economic and military support from the US, Israel will cease to exist in its current state. Only an idiot would believe the US backs Israel because they are fond of Jews or they fear the power of AIPAC. The US (with the cooperation of Western Europe and Middle Eastern henchmen ) is building up its military resources in and around this planet’s most valuable energy reserves for its own selfish reasons, Israel is little more than an appendage of the US military establishment’s threat to the region – another stick with which to beat the Arabs (or Persians in the case of Iran.)

As a number of commentators have pointed out, in the face of the threat posed to the region by decades of military aggression by the likes of the US and Israel, Iran would be mad it were not attempting to develop a nuclear deterrent.

Once Israel’s strategic significance ceases to be of consequence to the US, economic and military support will drop off precipitously, similarly, the ‘threat’ to western society that is Iranian religious fundamentalism will diminish as the last of the region’s energy reserves are hoovered up.

You do understand that Nejad doesn’t actually call the shots in Iran, don’t you?

Ah well, maybe not.

Anyway, his second term ends soon so then who will be your new favorite bogeyman?

Andy

Perhaps it’s getting late for you, but coherence is never your strong suit, anyway. Hitler and Stalin were totalitarians, end of story. I don’t care if Chomsky and Pappe are Buddhist – it’s facts that count.

To that loon who was advocating the mass murder of gay people; do not be surprised (or a cry baby) if the task turns out not to be as easy as it looks as gay people defend themselves and wouldbe hate crime committers find themselves disarmed (and given a good kicking for their trouble).

I agree with DPF about the MMP threshold; I have always advocated (even 20 years ago during the referendum debates) a threshold of 10%

Elaycee

As predicted, the regular zealots emerge and spout their usual bile about the sovereign state and the sovereign territory of Israel.

Like it or not, Israel isn’t moving. And the inflammatory actions perpetuated by the terrorist organisation Hamas, won’t change anything (apart from increasing the casualty rate). And correction for the arch Hamas propagandist Luc: There is actually no territory called ‘Palestine’. And there isn’t a City called Atlantis either. Both are myths. FIFY.

Back on topic: also agree with the suggestion that the threshold should be raised rather than lowered in NZ. We have enough lunatics in our midst now – the suggestion that we should make it easier for more to enter Parliament, is simply scary.

Put it away

Yes, it appears Palestinians are to be consigned to the “memory hole”, an “unpeople” who no longer meet the required standard to pass as human beings. Noam Chomsky’s point that, “It is a poor service to the memory of the victims of the Holocaust to adopt the central doctrine of their murderers.”, is best demonstrated in the rhetoric of the apologists for the Israeli ethnic cleansing of Palestinians from historic Palestine.

If the people of Israel were not Jews no one would give a toss about Palestinians and no one would question the right of Israel to exist.

There is something – something dark and evil – within the human core which makes many unable to resist a dig or criticism of Jews whenever the opportunity presents itself; no matter how many people are murdered by Palestinian terrorists – doesn’t matter when you can accuse Jews of __________ [write your pet Jewish hate here] in a sanctimonious manner.

Israel could become a peaceful, friendly, economically vibrant nation solving all manner of the World’s problems. “Doesn’t matter – they are Jews and we secretly hate them!” (according to many)

In Gaza Palenstinian terrorists could engage in widespread chainsawing up of babies – 500 per day, for instance – and it would not matter “oh look how these poor people are being victimised by JEWS!”

Nigel

Interesting timing for this to become a story, I mean the buses have been segregated for what 20 years now.

I suspect it crept up on Israel, tolerated where it was not obvious & politically convenient ( to whit DPF’s threshold comment, though how sexism at this level can be justified for political means says more about those that allowed it than the political system ).

But also I suspect the govt was unable to stop this being a story this time, be real curious what that was, maybe social media.

Yes, it appears Palestinians are to be consigned to the “memory hole”, an “unpeople” who no longer meet the required standard to pass as human beings

There is no such thing as “Palestine”, the nation.

“Palestine” is a geographic term, much like The Antipodes describes our area here down under. Is there such a thing as an ‘Antipodean’ language, culture, or people? Of course not. Same with Palestine. Even Jews before 1948 were lumped in and called Palestinians.

Conflating Jewishness with crimes committed by the state of Israel is the real anti-Jewish sentiment. There are a large number of Jewish organisations and individuals who are appalled by Israel regularly committing crimes against humanity. No doubt, there were those who considered all Europeans everywhere were responsible for the crimes committed by the apartheid regime in South Africa – it is the exact same rationale.

As people of European descent cannot collectively be held responsible for the crimes carried out by the white apartheid regime in South Africa; similarly, people of Jewish descent cannot collectively be held responsible for the criminal activity of the state of Israel.

JamesS “Scott Chris – yes I do believe that people with critical opinions of Israel are anti-semites.”

Foolish, the Palestinians are a semitic people. The great act of anti-semitism being carried out in Israel is the ethnic cleansing of the indigenous semitic population (Palestinians) by predominantly European colonists who happen to be descended from Europeans who converted to Judaism in the twelfth century.

Fletch: “There is no such thing as “Palestine”, the nation. … Even Jews before 1948 were lumped in and called Palestinians.”

There is a definite trend in the ‘Anglosphere’ establishment to air-brush Palestinians from their existence as an historically legitimate population, no amount of equivocating can hide this reality.

Scott Chris

JamesS says:- “You simply hate Jews. End of.”

Quite the contrary. Most of the people I admire and like the most have Jewish ancestry. Einstein, Woody Allen, Larry David, Jon Stewart, Richard Feynman, the Cohen Brothers, Spinoza and the historical Jesus etc…

reid

I do believe that people with critical opinions of Israel are anti-semites

Yes JamesS so do a lot of other people too. Why is that? Why is it impossible for people like you to assess and judge the actions of the Israeli govt separately to whether or not such an assessment is “anti-Semetic?”

I mean in the real world one separates and judges any other govt from its people all the time. Say if the Aussie govt does something stupid and counter-productive in the foreign policy arena, there is no widespread consensus amongst people that criticising said govt would be a betrayal of the Australian people.

Only in Israel does one find this conflation amongst people who think like you do.

The fact people like you only apply such thinking toward Israel and not to any other country on Earth is a sign people like you JamesS are looking at things the wrong way. You’re being inconsistent in your analysis. Of course you think such bias is valid as a matter of fact people like you think you’re not biased it’s the other people who are. But think about it JamesS, the other people, those who feel free to criticise Israel without thinking it’s a betrayal of her people, are the ones who are consistent, it’s people like you who are the inconsistent ones.

The Palestinian people does not exist. The creation of a Palestinian state is only a means for continuing our struggle against the state of Israel for our Arab unity. In reality today there is no difference between Jordanians, Palestinians, Syrians and Lebanese. Only for political and tactical reasons do we speak today about the existence of a Palestinian people, since Arab national interests demand that we posit the existence of a distinct ‘Palestinian people’ to oppose Zionism.

For tactical reasons, Jordan, which is a sovereign state with defined borders, cannot raise claims to Haifa and Jaffa, while as a Palestinian, I can undoubtedly demand Haifa, Jaffa, Beer-Sheva and Jerusalem. However, the moment we reclaim our right to all of Palestine, we will not wait even a minute to unite Palestine and Jordan.

Palestine is Jordan, even the Jordanian Kings admit it –

Here is Melanie Philips –

Anyone familiar with the history knows it is correct [that ‘Palestine’ is Jordan]. Immediately after World War One, Palestine consisted of what is now Jordan, Israel, the West Bank and Gaza. The great powers dividing up the region decided that Britain should be given a mandate to administer Palestine and restore within it the historic Jewish national home. Within a couple of years, however, Winston Churchill, for reasons of realpolitik, gave away three quarters of Palestine to the Hashemite dynasty to found (Trans)Jordan (leaving all the rest to be settled by the Jews; but that’s another story).

So Jordan is indeed Palestine. As Camie Davis points out, the Arabs themselves repeatedly said so:

Jordanians, for decades, were avid proponents of the ‘Jordan is Palestine’ position. They used that position as justification for the annexation of the West Bank, arguing that Palestine was one single, indivisible unit, and that Jordan was the legitimate governing body of Palestine…

‘We are the government of Palestine, the army of Palestine and the refugees of Palestine.’ Prime Minister of Jordan, Hazza’ al-Majali, 23 August 1959

‘Palestine and Transjordan are one.’ King Abdullah, Arab League meeting in Cairo, 12 April 1948

‘Palestine is Jordan and Jordan is Palestine; there is one people and one land, with one history and one and the same fate.’ Prince Hassan, brother of King Hussein, addressing the Jordanian National Assembly, 2 February 1970

‘Jordan is not just another Arab state with regard to Palestine, but rather, Jordan is Palestine and Palestine is Jordan in terms of territory, national identity, sufferings, hopes and aspirations.’ Jordanian Minister of Agriculture, 24 September 1980

‘The truth is that Jordan is Palestine and Palestine is Jordan.’ King Hussein 1981

Indeed, until 1970 the Palestine Liberation Organisation conducted terrorist operations against Jordan on the grounds that it was Palestine and the Hashemite minority was ruling the Palestinian majority. It was only after Jordan killed thousands of Palestinians in ‘Black September’ (and who in the west ever cared about that??) that Israel suddenly became the sole historic homeland’ of the Palestinians and Jordan was airbrushed out of the picture — and the fabrication of ‘Palestinianism’ became the accepted truth.

An very relevant article by Barry Rubin at Pajamas Media, which includes this:

Oh yes, a bus driver took it upon himself to tell a woman to sit in
the back of a bus because her sitting elsewhere might disturb Haredi
men. She took it to court and, of course, won. A man who is a member of a
tiny extremist cult in a small town spit at an Orthodox eight-year-old
girl, apparently he belongs to some extreme sect or is somewhat
disturbed. Even the strictest reading of Jewish law does not justify
such an action.
There were huge demonstrations against the actions of this one person
or tiny sect. President Shimon Peres publicly called for protests and
Jerusalem’s police chief asked rabbis to condemn such behavior. The
state and the public is clearly against any violation of democratic
norms. Oh, and incidentally this group in Bet Shemesh has something in
common with those trying to blow this up into a big issue–they are
anti-Zionist. Haredi extremists who are against accepting Israeli norms
on the rights of women are also against accepting Israel altogether. So
how are they examples of Israeli values and democracy? They aren’t.

And I cannot resist quoting this, either

A large portion of Western television stories and articles on Israel
is designed to give the worst possible impression of the county as
dictatorial at home and evil in its foreign policy. We used to think the
coverage was slanted but we never dreamed it would reach such levels.
The list is endless. Every day hundreds of stories are invented,
distorted, or magnified. Hundreds of reporters and researchers are
dedicated to searching out some alleged crime or evil in Israel,
magnifying the tiniest incident into an international headlined story.
Yet this same army of scribblers and talkers can’t seem to discover the
radicalism of the Muslim Brotherhood or the intransigence of the
Palestinian Authority.
I wish this was a exaggeration and if someone had written such things
10 or 20 years ago I would have ridiculed it as such. But times have
changed indeed. The near-monopoly in the mass media and in academia for a
narrow range of opinion (in the “age of diversity”!); the dominance of
ideology over professional ethics (in which the New York Times,
for example, can run op-eds 90 percent of which are anti-Israel with no
shame); and the failure of most Jewish organizations (the
Anti-Defamation League has not yet discovered that left-wing
antisemitism exists and actually tries to intimidate people from
criticizing Obama!); along with other factors have created a bizarre
atmosphere of conformity or else.

But it is interesting that in a month where Powerline blog can publish this article, detailing the increasing attacks on Christians of various sorts in the Middle East, often with fatal effects, everybody apparently being happy with such events occurring, but gets het up over the incident DPF describes. Storm, meet teacup.

Aredhel777

You guys are so incredibly stupid. How much sense do you need to realise that Iran with nuclear weapons is a bad idea? Of course they don’t want nuclear stuff for peaceful purposes you morons. There’s no arguing with wilfully blind lefties who think that anything non-Western is peaceful and tolerant and wonderful and that anything bad Muslims do (like blowing themselves up in the London underground) is the deserved result of evil Western imperialism. It’s all the West’s fault. The only consolation I take from this is that if you hate the West so much it must still have things worth dying for.

The only intelligent person in here is Fletch, who has heard of Melanie Phillips which increases my estimation of him even further.