I have been having a friendly disagreement with a fellow geocacher over a Travel Bug I saw in a cache a while ago... I thought I would post it to the forums just for interesting points of view and discussion.

Knives are not mentioned in the outlines. Knives are not illicit, illegal, or inherently dangerous. People who stick their heads (or worse, their childrens) in the sand do themselves a huge dis-service. Now, I don't want to go into some "when I was a boy" tirade, but, for God's sakes, whats happened to personal responsibility? I can prove in one easy question that those who disapprove of knives in caches are hypocrits. "Where do you keep your cutlery at home"? yeah, I though so. In that little drawer at waist level that any kid could open up and get to. did you warn me about that when I came into your home with my child? Knives are not dangerous. Only people who don't know how to safely handle them are.

The rules for taking them to school are clear (no matter how twisted it is). No knives in school. although that's another twisted and annoying topic to me..............

I'd move that bug. I might even let my boy handle it (with my supervision)._________________"You cannot reason a person out of a position they did not reason themselves into"

Knives are not mentioned in the outlines. Knives are not illicit, illegal, or inherently dangerous. People who stick their heads (or worse, their childrens) in the sand do themselves a huge dis-service. Knives are not dangerous. Only people who don't know how to safely handle them are.

I might even let my boy handle it (with my supervision).

I was a boy scout most of my life (probably 1st or 2nd grade through the time I made Eagle Scout at age 16). I never had issues handling a knife, nor did my parents have a problem with me having knives in my own posession, using knives without direct supervision, etc.

This is not to say that my parents didn't care. This is to say that they knew that THEY showed me how they should be handled, Scouts showed me how they should be handled, and I followed that well.

Geocaching is an outdoor activity that a lot of people do with their children... As a responsible adult, why not show the children the proper manner in which you should use, carry, and store knives?

I guess people put them in the kitchen, say, "don't touch" and expect that to be enough.

Use your common sense in most cases. Explosives, ammo, knives, drugs, and alcohol shouldn't be placed in a cache. Respect the local laws. All ages of people hide and seek caches, so use some thought before placing an item into a cache.

Food items are ALWAYS a BAD IDEA. Animals have better noses than humans, and in some cases caches have been chewed through and destroyed because of food items in a cache. Please do not put food in a cache.

This is from the gc.com FAQ page--I myself see nothing wrong with knives, but apparently enough people do in order for it to make the "bad" list on the guidelines._________________There comes a time in every young boy's life when he gets an irresistible urge to seek buried treasure.--Mark Twain

I have put in knives in the past and will continue to do so. Just like guns, a knife never hurt or killed someone by itself. When I was in high school, I carried a small pocket knife every day. And I still do to this day. A good knife can be the most important tool a person can carry. Ask any survialist or Army soldier.

I read my e mail before I do much of anything else when I start up my computer. I then went to the MNGCA forum this evening and read this topic and the replies. As it happens, a friend sent this to me today and I copied it below. Makes "Common Sense" doesn't it?

Today we mourn the passing of a beloved old friend
by the name of Common Sense who has been with us for many years. No one knows for sure how old he was since
his birth records were long ago lost in bureaucratic red tape.

He will be remembered as having cultivated such valued
lessons as knowing when to come in out of the rain,
why the early bird gets the worm
and that life isn't always fair.

Common Sense lived by simple,
sound financial policies
(don't spend
more than you earn)
and reliable parenting strategies
(adults, not kids, are in charge).

His health began to rapidly deteriorate when well intentioned but
overbearing regulations were set in place. Reports of a six-year-old boy charged with sexual harassment for kissing a classmate, teens suspended from school for using mouthwash after lunch, and a teacher fired for reprimanding an unruly student only worsened his condition. It declined even further when schools were required to get parental consent to administer aspirin to a student but could not inform the parents when a student became pregnant and wanted to have an abortion.

Finally, Common Sense lost the will to live
as the Ten Commandments became contraband,
churches became businesses and criminals received better
treatment than their victims.

Common Sense finally gave up the ghost
after a woman failed to realize that a steaming cup of coffee was hot, spilled it in her lap, and was awarded a huge settlement.

Common Sense was preceded in death by his parents,
Truth and Trust, his wife, Discretion; his daughter, Responsibility; and his son, Reason. He is survived by two stepbrothers; My Rights and Ima Whiner.

Not many attended his funeral because so few
realized he was gone. If you still know him pass this on,
if not you can give him a second death.

Matt, I missed that part of the F.A.Q. Considering that knives in caches is addressed, it is actually encumbent on cachers to not put them into caches.

Ummmmm....Bob. you missed my point. Read my post again, and identify sarcasm where it applies. I don't personally mind the presence of a knife in a cache, but I'd have to respect expressed rules. I'm just that kind of a guy. BTW I was a Life Scout. My family moved out of the parish I grew up in and in turn, I left my troop. Eagle scout was in my hopes, but it never happened. I regret it to this day. I'll have to settle for scout master._________________"You cannot reason a person out of a position they did not reason themselves into"

Personally, I have no problems with knives--I always carried a pocket knife through middle school and high school, and I don't leave the house without my Leatherman Micro (which technically isn't a knife, but a multi-tool that happens to have a knife as one of the tools). But knives in caches are going to make people uncomfortable, and cause discussions like this to happen. Remember, this is a brave new post-Columbine and post-9/11 world we live in. So I don't place them in caches, and if I find one in a cache, I'll trade for it rather than a cool McToy or Hotwheels. I also post in my online log why I took the knife, and hopefully my wording isn't taken as a rebuff. Just this weekend, I took a knife and the cachers who placed it emailed asking for clarification, and thanked me for the information._________________There comes a time in every young boy's life when he gets an irresistible urge to seek buried treasure.--Mark Twain

The discussion has been about regular cache items, and the topic began about a Travel Bug. I would assume that since knives are specifically mentioned in the F.A.Q. that it would relate to T B s as well.

A side topic, and one that a bug such as this might affect:

Travel Bugs do not go through the approval process. I would hate to see anything that would change that. Some of mine may be borderline, depending on your point of view, but I have not received ANY complaints.

As far as I know, mtn-man is the only ADMIN who looks at this site. Perhaps he has something to add?_________________Joined: 16 Dec 2002

I'd just like to go on the record by saying that The King has produced some of the most interesting Travel Bugs that I have seen. Some may be rated PG, but I am failrly certain that they will not be duplicated 20 times. The Warrior Women series is spectacular.

The discussion has been about regular cache items, and the topic began about a Travel Bug.

True! Travel Bugs are a whole different topic. Thanks.

For instance..... If you find a "banned" item in a cache as a trading item, you can quietly make it go away with little or no fuss - not a problem.

With a knife Travel Bug -- would you be violating geocaching guidelines by moving it along and placing it in a cache?
What about the parks systems who have banned those items - is it *their* duty to come confiscate it, or do we as geocachers not let it get to that point at all?

What do you do with it? Quietly making it go away is not an option and yet moving it along is not an option either.

Most of us, outdoor sports people in general, carry a pocket knife, it was a right of passage to be given my first one as a boy. I think it important to put this issue into further perspective.
A small pocket knife, less than 3.75" blade length generally not prohibited for carrying in public, and in my opinion the small swiss army knives, and those like the one described in the initial post would IMHO not be an issue if serving as travel bugs.
Where the problem lies is in knives bigger than the 3.75"-which serve little utility purpose, rather a specific one. What I mean is, I shouldn't be carrying my military survival knife, or my deer hunting knife in public places, nor would I think these items appropriate as cache booty.
I try to see not just the letter of the law, rather the spirit...what behavior is this rule trying to control?_________________When Re-Inventing the Wheel ... Think Rounder