/ Dogs for the indoor/outdoor life

I know there have been a few threads about this but everyone has different requirements, right?

We want to get a dog, and we're pondering the different breeds. I've been looking through some of the old threads on here, as well as researching elsewhere.

Some disclaimers: I work from home so the dog wouldn't be left alone for long periods. We've both grown up with dogs, so we have a sense of what's required, and will be taking the time to do proper training etc. We have cats, and I know from experience that cats and dogs can get along perfectly well, as long as the dog isn't a known cat-killing breed like a greyhound, for instance. We also have young(ish) children in the house.

So.

We'd like a dog whose provenance is known, as much as possible - i.e. not a rescue dog. Both our cats are from the RSPCA, and future dogs would be, but whilst we have young children in the house, and these cats, I feel more comfortable with a puppy (again, rather than a dog) from a happy home. We're happy to have a cross-breed but it would be good to have some sense of what the cross is!

In time, we'd like to be able to take the dog out running/mountain biking, so we're looking for something reasonably athletic.

I know it goes against the UKC grain, but we wouldn't have a collie.

At the moment we're thinking about vizslas, weimaraners (but not pointers as they have cat-killing tendencies, evidenced by the thread a couple of months ago), springer spaniels... are there any other breeds we could investigate?

My partner's just mentioned boxers, as he's partial to them - anyone got one they take out on the hill?

In reply to Tall Clare: Would love to say Deerhound as they are most amiable dogs ever (with cats that they are brought up with also) and ours comes running with me. I wouldn't trust him when I was on a mountain bike though as he's a bit of a clumsy pooch (and I'm clumsy on a bike!) so could imagine him running in front of bike and me going flying and breaking my neck! And he has tripped up Streap a few times when they have run together, but Streap runs fast with less chance to correct himself if he gets tangled with the dog, whereas I'm more of a jogger.

He loves to swim too and is great on the hill (although obviously you can't take him too far too young) However, he went up Grahams and Corbetts with us from 6 months and did 2x Fainnach hills before a year old (they are bred for the hill and I reckon they can take a long day as long as they are not pelting about and it's not every weekend) He was a bit problematic with fences when a pup but he's quite handy at leaping over things now and can use styles too.

Oh, and they are amazing with kids and very tolerant of being poked and pulled and and cuddled to death

He was more than happy to stay in and laze around when we needed to be in the house but he excelled in being outdoors. We took him for a walk for an hour each morning and each evening then most of the day Saturday and Sunday on the hills, on moors hanging around crags etc. He loved being out in the winter just needed some boots and a jacket as their feet are fairly soft and short haired. (unless you get a long haired one)

You have to be fairly hard on them in the first year as they are excitable and can be very skitish but after that, he was just the best thing ever!

Loved kids, loved cats and other dogs, although some dogs didn't take to well to him. Loving obedient and a wicked personality. Whichever one you choose, good luck, great companions! (Vizslas are basically the same but smaller)

PS, I know you're an arty type Clare, so have a look at William Wegman Weimaraner stuff, its great and he adored his Weims:

We had a lab when I was little - he was great. Soft as butter and didn't even flinch when my brother pulled his eyeball out (though he did curl his lip when I tried to cut his testicles off (the dog, not my brother) (er...)) Apparently they're not so great for running a long way though. We discovered the lab/weimaraner cross the other day, which looks like a great dog.

A friend has an amazing springer (the sort that inspires shame in other dogs), and a working cocker, and my parents also have a working cocker - brilliant dogs. Mr TC is veering towards shorter-haired dogs though.

Some of these names - presumably for cross-breeds - are like cryptic clues. Whatever a sprocker is, could there be a variant called a sprocket, and some kind of matching cross (perhaps involving a corgi) called a cog?

In reply to Tall Clare:
Lab x Weimaraner sounds good, but then anything x lab is generally pretty good. Not collie for you though! My sister has a lab x collie, it has the lab's appetite and the collie's intelligence...

Turns out a Vizsla/Lab cross is a bit odd-looking. A Vizsla/Springer (a Sprizsla(!)) is a nice-looking dog though. One thing I like about this cross-breeding is that hopefully it removes some of the problems developed in particular breeds.

In reply to Tall Clare: I have a springer and apart from being a bit giddy, hes superb with our 10 month old boy.

If a pointer is brought up with cats, it will be fine with cats, there are plenty of youtube videos showing this relationship. A friend of mine has two working lurchers, and cats! Although their young, and the cats put them in their place early on!

With dogs and children, i dont think there is a forumla, but this link is good,

Ironically it was a weimy that killed the toddler, but i dont think that it is anything to do with the breed, more so the parent.

Springers are brilliant, but they as a breed like to charge around, makes them difficult near crags etc, as ive never met one, (although ive met too many working ones bred to charge around like idiots) that actually enjoys staying by your side, all the time. Although they take to training brilliantly, althoguh from my experience benefit from work based training, but not hunting birds, tenis balls? (although most will do both).

Why wouldnt you have a collie? Im the same, I had a collie x previously who was fear aggresive (recue dog) and this was hard work, and a lot of collies ive met are quite shy, or something be it other dogs, or people and ive found this makes them a bit snappy? combined with the whole herding thing i didnt want this near my child. But again only basing this on my experiences im sure lots of people have collies that are the opposite!

My friend's springer is an awesome dog - super friendly, works with groups of disaffected young people, runs along with a mountain bike, good as a gun dog, obeys commands... she's amazing. I know a lot of that is through the time her owners have put in.

Collies? It might be writing off a whole breed, and I do know of some lovely collies, but a) I've met too many snappy ones, and b) I was bitten by one as a child. There are also other dogs that appeal to me more.

In reply to Tall Clare: Its strange that a few of us dislike them to own, because on paper they would be brilliant, i had to pull my old collie of too many other dogs, albeit they went for her but its not a breed i wish to own again, also they would take a lot of socialising to get use to sheep, where as mylo was never trained around sheep, but unless one is carrying a ball or a bird, he wont be interested!

I think it is a lot about the time you put in, mylo to me is perfect, i couldnt want him to do anything different, he is so fun to go out with, but he requires interaction of me, which maybe if i took him out mtb a lot, this wouldnt be good. But thats only because i trained him so his focus was completely on me, if i wanted him for biking etc, maybe i would of done something differently,

How old are the children? Silly question i know, but are they trained around dogs?

In reply to Submit to Gravity: Mine never went for me, but if i hadnt of intervened she would of giving people lots! If i still had her now that we have our son, she would be PTS i think, i loved the dog to pieces and loosing her was horrible, but my god was she un-predictable!

The children are eight and ten. The ten year old is like Dr Doolittle - she's one of those people that animals tend to melt around - but they haven't had a dog of their own before. This is one of the reasons why we're keen to start 'fresh' with a 'happy/well-socialised' puppy rather than a more unknown quantity.

Great as a family pet, very good with other animals and fantastic with kids. Oh and forgot to say best bread for being in the hills.

Ours was a rescue only 4 months old so a puppy, no problems with cats as was introduced at the kennels and as only a pup was easily trained. He was just under a year when we had Harry and was so protective over him it was unreal, Harry now nearly 4 and they are bet mates.

Great dog for on the hills as they just don't stop but indoors just settle down in his bed.

Vizslas are nice dogs and brother has had one and now has two brothers, not the best dog for winter but good at all other times of the year. First one came from the breaded who introduced them to the uk and she warned him that from the age of around 4 months for upto 1 year you will think you have the wrong dog. Devil dog is not the words. The will just destroy everything, be totally hyper and just not do anything thy are told. But then one day a switch is turned on and its like you have. Different dog.

In reply to Tall Clare: Hi Clare i'm sure you've seen my recent posts, i have a vizsla and she amazing, and a complete wonder in winter as oppose to previous experience above, loving, gets on with our cats 110%, protective of our house, friendly to people, kids, other animals, very robust for the big days out, can run like a train, bags of character and gorgeous, you'll struggle to get one without knowing its history/breeding, with effort can be trained to excellent standards.

When I am out about on the hills or on the water she comes with me. If I do 20km she must do at least 50km running around. I have failed to wear her out so far. When I am in the office she curls up under my desk and gets tangled in the computer cables. If I am going to be in the office all day I take her for a 4km lap of the block first and a run in the park aferwards (or the other way round). Right now she is trying to climb on my lap for a cuddle. She would take a stroke/cuddle over food any day so it is easy to get her to do things for a pat.

In reply to Tall Clare:
I've mentioned them before in one of the previous threads, but how about a Beagle? Friendly, loyal, full of fun and energy, can go all day outdoors and are great with kids and other animals. Plus the fact they are just gorgeous too. On paper they definitely seem to fit your requirements.
I've just got my second one, and i love them so much it may well not be my last.

We've had a chocolate lab puppy from 8 weeks. He's absolutely beautiful, although a bit nippy at the moment and is big enough to attempt to take food off the table - which is every time there is food on the table. The legendary lab appetite is not legend at all, its based purely on fact.

In reply to Tall Clare: Depend what type of beagle you get! I have one 'classic' type with short legs and square muzzle. My other is longer in the leg and face and will be around the size of a springer once she finishes growing.
There is also the Harrier Hound which is a lanky beagle?

In reply to Tall Clare: +1 for a springer or a weimaraner. Not sure how well they would get on with the cycling depending on pace (or the need to run around the undergrowth for smells and game) however they both go forever and ever. After 2 German Shepard I never thought I would love another breed as much but love them just as much but with obvious different character traits

My only issue is the springers love for sheep. She is a failed gun dog and though she will catch live ducks and bring them back, she goes crazy for sheep. The weimaraner is the same for squirrels, everything else they are both find. However both were from the dog trust and they provided 0 history

In reply to Tall Clare: I've had a few dogs and worked with people with dogs that have gone to work with them (as distinct from working dogs!). I am, I think, a confirmed lab man. Their easy trainability, easy going, downright affable nature makes them as easy dog to have around the gaff. I've owned a lab/collie and know another one well and they are also really good dogs - maybe with a bit more of the oomph!! you are looking for.

Remember your exercise window is relatively short. You can't run a dog under around 18 months any distance (or risk long term joint issues) and after around 8 or 10 they may not be up for big runs, so for half their life they won't be up for the big adventures.

My dad has worked spaniels (good, but crafty) and we had a weimeraner in the '70s. This was an early model and hadn't had the dealer recalls later models may have had - but it was an absolute b'stard.

I know people with working collies, but make it a rule not to have a dog that's cleverer than me. Or with more mental health issues.

My current dog was second hand from the home office. He would tell me what he used to do, but he says he'd have to kill me afterwards. Anyway, he seems fairly bomb(!) proof.

A second hand dog has potential for problems, but puppies are really hard work - swings and roundabouts.

Whatever you decide, the very best of luck. poo bags make great hand warmers in the cold

In reply to Tall Clare: my vote is for the Weimaraner. Excellent dog. We have a 8 year old that still does 20+km with the bike. He is very loyal and loving.louis has always been great with kids and has taken to our 6 month old really well. Very alert so no one will ever sneak up on your house. Also they are cuddle dependent.

In reply to Tall Clare: I'd be wary of having a collie anyway... they are special dogs but require special attention.. I's also only get a collie as a rescue as they shouldn't be house dogs really.. but some just need a home..

Boxers are fit dogs.. good hill dogs.. just look like they've ran into the back end of a bus...

In reply to Tall Clare: WE've got two Great Danes, a 2 year old and an 11 month old. Absolutly great with kids and around the house.

Our two spend all their time layed on the settee. I've never known dogs sleep so much, but get them outside and they'll walk all day.
Very obedient, and suprisingly easy to train. Admittedly they do go through some food, but it's definitly worth every penny. Also, don't believe all the crap about needing a big house. We live in a three bed semi with an average sized garden, and it's plenty big enough.

Like i said, very good with kids of all ages,our youngest has Aspergers and has a tendency to be very hands on with them, always squeezing and cuddleing them, but they don't raise an eyebrow. Word of warning though, they think that they're the size of a Jack Russel, and will come and sit on your knee if you let them.

If your after a rescue, go to the Great Dane owners forum. There's a link to rescue dogs there, and one of the sites is run by two women who take in Danes. They assess them over a period of a few months to get to know their personality and traits, then re-house them to suitable homes only. That means that if you get one, you know it will be ok with kids or whether it doesn't like certain things (Cats?) or has certain needs.

In reply to Tall Clare: I don't know, but I suspect a Weimaraners temperament towards cats would be similar to a pointers. I'm sure you would be fine introducing a puppy to a cat household. But I suspect a weimaraner that has not been socialised will be just as dangerous as a pointer from a cats point of view.

My point being, I wouldn't discount pointers if you are buying a pup and I seem to remember you fancied a wire haired one at one point.

In reply to Tall Clare: We wondered about their size, but it's amazing how quickly you get used to them.

I look at ours now, and in my mind they seem about as big as a Doberman. It's not until you see them with other dogs that their size becomes apparent. Ours go everywhere with us, unless it's shopping or eating out, and it always seems strange when people comment on their size.
Infact, if there is one drawback to having one, it's getting stopped every two minutes so people can fuss them. It can get a bit tedious after a full day of it, but on the other hand we've actually made some good friends over the past couple of years, just from getting talking to people about the dogs. They're now very well known in Ossett, and when we go over to Whitby for the day, there's a pub we always go to where the Landlord knows the dogs names but not ours.

i'd prefer an pedigree american pit-bull but they tell me that's a bit naughty.

If what i've seen on The Dog Whisperer is true, then i think they'd make a cracking pet. I think the same happened to them as what is happening now with Staffies. Great dogs, just getting a bad name because of the chav's teaching them to be aggresive and using them as a walking weapon.

> (In reply to jayferg76)
>
> We'd love a Great Dane, but they're just a bit *too* big for a first dog for us. They're on my dog bucket list though - one day!
>
> We've been enquiring about weimaraners...

I think as you say given the right home they would make a fantastic companion. My sister got a rescue staffy a big one as well, Carly, she's a lovely dog, proper dangerous in the wrong hands, probably bred by chavs then they couldn't deal with her. A few years back i'd walk her every day it would take ten miles to get her to walk to heal and not trying to pull like she was in some crazy chariot race.

In reply to Game of Conkers: There's a couple knocking around Ossett, but like you say, quite rare. Shame really as they're lovely dogs. My mate had one about 15 years ago, he'd love another but his wife won't let him.

> (In reply to jayferg76) Around my way you just don't see Dobermans anymore. Very rare sight. They were much more common about 20 years ago. Is it a fashion thing?

I think so. Weimeraners are currently very fashionable (given what I see out and about). When we had one, it was a sufficient novelty that people would stop you in the street, Dobermans less so now, but they were once sufficiently bad reputationed that one got to play Zoltan! Hound of Dracula!

Lots of husky- type dogs cropping up in the staffie niche in the last few years. Away from the popular and perrenial working breeds, dogs are (to a greater or lesser extent) a lifestyle accessory, and fashions change

In reply to Tall Clare:
Spaniels are full of energy, inteligent, loyal and well behaved in the right enviroment. They love water though, beware of that if you walk past a lake/river/canal/puddle! Springers can be a bit full on but cockers or even a sproker won't mind the odd day without a run and when you do take them out they'll run for hours. A small dog can have big dog energy levels too, cain terriers and jack russels are both great breeds.
We don't see enough red setters or dalmations these days, get one of those to please us!

Yep - between us, as family dogs, we've had an alsatian-cross, gordon setters, a labrador, a doberman, boxers and a working cocker - so mostly big dogs. A bigger (but not enormous) dog is what we want!

In reply to johnj: My brother in law has had three, and they've been great with his kids.
We were at his house for his daughters birthday about 6 years ago, and our son went missing. He was only four at the time, one minute he was on the bouncy castle, next minute no sign of him.
We searched all over the house, out in the street, everywhere we could think of. After about half an hour, someone found him. He was sat behind the bouncy castle, arm round the Staffie sharing a sausage with him. Both boy and dog looked blissfuly happy, and not a mauling in site. What a dog.

> (In reply to Tall Clare) I don't know, but I suspect a Weimaraners temperament towards cats would be similar to a pointers. I'm sure you would be fine introducing a puppy to a cat household. But I suspect a weimaraner that has not been socialised will be just as dangerous as a pointer from a cats point of view.
>
> My point being, I wouldn't discount pointers if you are buying a pup and I seem to remember you fancied a wire haired one at one point.

All true, but having done further rummaging since your thread, it seems it's a noteworthy characteristic in GSPs but not in Vizslas or Weimaraners. Odd!

> (In reply to johnj) My brother in law has had three, and they've been great with his kids.
> We were at his house for his daughters birthday about 6 years ago, and our son went missing. He was only four at the time, one minute he was on the bouncy castle, next minute no sign of him.
> We searched all over the house, out in the street, everywhere we could think of. After about half an hour, someone found him. He was sat behind the bouncy castle, arm round the Staffie sharing a sausage with him. Both boy and dog looked blissfuly happy, and not a mauling in site. What a dog.

When I was wee, our family had a cross boxer/lab and he was a brilliant dog. Super friendly, fit and faithful - looked a bit like a GSD. Not sure how long the potential runs are you mention, but he was very "outdoorsy".

An old school friend has got an American Bull dog, I've never really known a dog anything like that one, basically it's a prison dog, rarely gets walked just has to guard the yard, the finest temperament of any dog i've ever seen, I think maybe as its so strong it has nothing to prove, it just likes playing football and wants to be one of the lads.

PS had an ex gundog springer....and what a star she was. I miss her still, 4 years after she died. Now have a field cocker, and she has canoed, caved and done all sorts with me, and runs beside/in front of my bike like a dream (after I ran her over a couple of times). This cocker has a butterfly brain, can't hold one idea in her head from one moment to the next, but she's trainable, and very very affectionate. And cuddlesome. And yet still unpoiled... I can munch away at my supper with her asleep beside me, and she does as she is told. She's very nosy. Everyone loves her, if that is any recommendation!

Good luck, and as has already been mentioned, you will get out of the dog what you put in- so be firm in the early months and it will pay off.

In reply to Tall Clare: Was gonna suggest a Dalmatian, bred to run all day and short-haired... I thought your brother was a big bloke nowadays, is he still freaked out by them?

Saw what I think was a couple of Brittanys the other week, looked bit like a smaller lighter Springer. Very nice but maybe too small and fluffy?

There's only one answer (if you keep their hair short) - Old English Sheepdog! Our neighbours had one when I was little, it used to gallumph around in a very happy way. Obviously you'd have to spend a bit of time grooming it, but this should appeal to a creative knitting type... according to Wikipedia "Some people shave their Sheepdog's hair and spin it into yarn".

In reply to johnj: If the pup went into a cats house its almost certainly going to grow up OK with cats..

Spaniels and collies are the two breeds which cause more bites than any other breed (spaniels no. 1 I think..). Collies are very snappy, its just part of their breed, its not overly aggressive, just a nip.. but something to bare in mind when kids are about..

Lab/collie cross is a good bet if you get the right combo - basically, you want the brain of a lab in the body of a collie, so you get an energetic dog that's not too bright and doesn't need much mental stimulation. Of course, if you get a smart, lazy dog, you're screwed!

A word in defence of collies - they're brilliant dogs, but it's amazing the number of people who land themselves a highly intelligent dog, don't bother to give it any mental stimulation, then wonder why it starts behaving oddly. Collies are bred to work with their heads as much as their bodies, and the ones from strong working stock usually have a monster work ethic that can be pretty challenging to satisfy. Ours will quite happily wade through snow drifts for a day with me, want to play chase with sticks on the walk out, then come home at night and pester my wife for some games to occupy it mentally. Like I say, they're incredible dogs, but probably require a fair bit more effort to own than lots of other breeds. They're generally less tolerant of kids bugging them than labs as well, so kids need to be old enough to get the message when a collie says 'enough' - our second collie came from a household where there were lots of different young kids in and out, and the owners were having real problems with the dog getting stressed out and increasingly fragile around toddlers. Thankfully they were savvy enough to spot the problem before one of the kids was hurt and the dog had to be put down.

We had a brilliant working cocker bitch until recently. A super and very loyal dog, but hardly a companion on mountain or forest walks as she was always off doing her own thing, which always involved a lot of flat-out running, often for hours on end.

In reply to Tall Clare: Another vote for Weimaraners - very demanding in the first couple (or 3) years, but fantastic dogs if you put the time and effort in. They commonly live to 12 or 13, I've heard of some older too. We had labs and lab crosses growing up (mostly rescues), but I've never had a relationship with a dog like this. Not for everyone, so make sure you know what you are getting yourself in for!

Ours was great in winter, we lived in Geneva and took him snowshoeing, he would bound through 4-feet drifts. He never had a coat, but would get wrapped up in a blanket afterwards, when not running around to keep warm.

We are on the waiting list for our second. I can recommend our breeder (they don't make money from it, it's a hobby) - they breed Weims and Vizslas (all home-raised), plus cats so the pups are already accustomed to them.

TBH, if you have a list of breeds, you should speak to a good breeder of each, see if you can meet their dogs etc. A good breeder will be honest about their breed's quirks and problem areas, and will not sell you a pup if they doubt that you will be a suitable owner. If they don't give you a grilling about your experience, lifestyle etc., walk away!

In reply to IainRUK:
You think that might be down to the number of spaniels/collies as pets in relation to other breeds or that would have already been factored in? Pehaps Collies being a bit nippy is just their nature, nipping the odd sheep to keep them in line etc

I grew up with a German shep and a close uncle had a working springer and a rough and standard collie. The collies were very loving and playful when we were kids but we were aware to watch out for the odd playful nip, not to be interprited as aggression. That was way back though, people don't seem as aware of a dogs nature as much these days. I had a cocker myself from a pup, ex wife still has him. Losing him in the divorce means I'd struggle to get another dog now, they all break your heart when you lose them.
Rough collies, don't see many of those these days

> (In reply to Tall Clare)>
> TBH, if you have a list of breeds, you should speak to a good breeder of each, see if you can meet their dogs etc. A good breeder will be honest about their breed's quirks and problem areas, and will not sell you a pup if they doubt that you will be a suitable owner. If they don't give you a grilling about your experience, lifestyle etc., walk away!

+1 for that. The breeder who we got ours from spent about half an hour asking about our lifestyle, home, even the size of our car. Might seem daft to some, but to me it's the sign of a responsible, caring breeder.

> (In reply to IainRUK)
> You think that might be down to the number of spaniels/collies as pets in relation to other breeds or that would have already been factored in? Pehaps Collies being a bit nippy is just their nature, nipping the odd sheep to keep them in line etc
>

>The collies were very loving and playful when we were kids but we were aware to watch out for the odd playful nip, not to be interprited as aggression.

Certainly popularity is an issue.. but very true they aren't aggressive.. I don't worry about collie's mauling kids.. just over reactions and misinterpretation of what a nip means.. collie's have a very strong sense of right and wrong.. which is why they are easy to train.. they know what good behaviour is almost instintively, but they also know when they are being handled incorrectly.. with a huge sense of injustice.. and will protest against it.. be it a nip or destroying of a prized possession...

Hi TC
Some time ago I researched, got, then gave away a truly brilliant pup. I am dog savvy, but was overwhelmed and heartbroken and can really strongly vouch for the fact that pups are hard work. The pups new owner (who unlike me, has had kids) confirms its like looking after a toddler.

More helpfully (perhaps)- I share your sentiments about rescue dogs and needing to know backgrounds. However, I recently met a dog obsessed lady who rehomes working breeds, rehabilitates working dogs with issues and she often has/knows of pups with full knowledge of where they are from or knows of litters coming up. Her "dog sense" seems spot on - her website does not do her justice, but this is it:http://www.dogseekers.co.uk/
Watching her work some of them is amazing. She lives for the dogs, and to be frank wouldnt let anyone go home with one if it wasnt right. It might be that she has a youngun that is amazing and totally trustworthy and a spaniel . Check out the dogs looking for homes pages.

Thanks for this - some really good thoughts. I remember your threads a while back too. Definitely going into this with eyes as wide-open as possible, to the point of saying to Mr TC that the dog won't be staying if the cats don't get on with it, planning ahead for times when we know he'll be away with work for a few days, etc. It's always good to hear about others' experiences though - hopefully we're doing the right thing. Eek!

Fingers crossed you are, and really you dont know til you try and all dogs are different. One thing I did think though - your new years resolutions on the other thread may be harder to achieve if you find yourself juggling a new pooch into the TC & Mr TC melee. Best of luck with it though, dogs are great

> (In reply to johnj) If the pup went into a cats house its almost certainly going to grow up OK with cats..
>
> Spaniels and collies are the two breeds which cause more bites than any other breed (spaniels no. 1 I think..). Collies are very snappy, its just part of their breed, its not overly aggressive, just a nip.. but something to bare in mind when kids are about..

where have you got this information from out of interest? Everwhere i look including acedemic stuff points to other breeds? Not arguing just never seen any statistics that mention any of these dogs, the only study ive seen, had rottweilers, staffies and JR terriers as top three, followed by mongrels and other stuff?

In reply to Tall Clare: hi tall Clair , at the end of the day you have to go with what you like and what fits into and compliments your personal circumstances and what you want to do with it. I have a miniature schnauzer who loves being out in the hills and will keep going all day, he beat me up tryfan recently!! And they have a great temperament , only downside I have found is that if you have one sooner or later you will probably want another!! Also look at the standard schnauzer if you prefer a larger dog although I think makes are generally bigger, mine is almost as big as a standard!

My collie isn't 'bitey' unless I'm wrestling with her, and only then it's just a hold rather than a nip with her mouth. She is a bit of a mutant amongst collies though, being rather small & very short-haired (anyone who's camped at Garth Farm in Capel Curig will have seen her relatives, I got her from there)

As for other breeds, a family friend has got a Vizsla, and it's full of energy, as well as being somewhat insane. Nice long legs for getting up & over rocks etc. though when out & about. I've heard good things about Boxers too for hill-dogs, again due to high energy & good mobility.

> (In reply to Tall Clare)
>
> My collie isn't 'bitey' unless I'm wrestling with her, and only then it's just a hold rather than a nip with her mouth. She is a bit of a mutant amongst collies though, being rather small & very short-haired (anyone who's camped at Garth Farm in Capel Curig will have seen her relatives, I got her from there)
>

Welsh border collies are typically far smaller than english border collie's. But there is also few farm collies which are pure border collie.. they breed them to function so stick other breeds in as needed if they want to bulk the line up a bit. Short haired, small working collies are prett much the norm around north wales.

> (In reply to arch)
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> As I say, this time round, we want to know the provenance of the dog. We have rescue cats, we'll have rescue dogs in future, my family's had lots of rescue dogs, but this time we want to be sure.

Haven't read all the way through yet, but you do get pups in rescue who ahve been born in foster homes as their mothers were handed in to rescue. seen some cracking pointer adn lurcher pups who were in this position. I can't see how they would be any differetn from gettign a pup from a breeder.
Somewhere like http://www.dogpages.org.uk/forums/ would be able to point you in the direction of any suitable litters ...

In reply to Tall Clare: p.s. Having read goosebomps comment above, have you ever had a puppy, or been in close contact with one? They're much worse than kittens!
I've just spent the week at a friend's farm where they have a young retriever pup and good god it's hard work. If it's not asleep its eating stuff (ANY stuff it can find), or collecting stuff into a large pile. It ate half the christmas tree and opened all the presents when left with no humans downstairs from 6-8am. It really is like having a small child, i have decided i never want one.
But you may be brave than me....