"Andrea IS a legit #1 option on an NBA team. He draws a double team, has a solid post game, can hit three and the mid range jumper as well as any big man in the league. Hes not the best rebounder or team defender (solid one one one defender) - true."

The statement open ended. It's subjective. It's like saying Derozan at his best is better than Ray Allen. Sure, anyone at their best can be better than most players in the league normally.

IF (and that's a huge IF) Johnson can play more than 12-15 minutes a night without picking up 3-4 fouls on a consistent basis, he has a chance of making a big impact, but to this point, he hasn't.

Nah Bargnani is 5 seasons IN this is him now...DeRozan hasnt reached his ceiling yet...and comparing DD to Ray Ray is not even close to similar cuz one guys on the way up and ones declining where as bargs and Amir are about similar in terms of there length of service and ceiling comparisons comparitive to each other....its a legit argument...Amir's impact is greater at 12/15 than bargs is at 23/3

Nah Bargnani is 5 seasons IN this is him now...DeRozan hasnt reached his ceiling yet...and comparing DD to Ray Ray is not even close to similar cuz one guys on the way up and ones declining where as bargs and Amir are about similar in terms of there length of service and ceiling comparisons comparitive to each other....its a legit argument...Amir's impact is greater at 12/15 than bargs is at 23/3

Try again...

Amir has been in the league longer than Bargnani. And see what you did there, you compared Amir going 12/15 with Bargnani going 23/3. But Bargnani can post 23 points and 3 rebounds any game, he has been averaging around there. On a good day, Bargnani can be great. He has grabbed 17 rebounds in a game once, which means that on a good day he can rebound. He can also score a lot, if we are talking about Bargnani at his best. And in certain games he actually defended really well. You see this whole thread is flawed, because any player at their best are going to be really good, and you can't compare that way. If Amir is going 12/15 on a good day, Bargnani can go for 40 points. I don't get what you are trying to prove here, that Amir on a great night is better than Bargnani on his average night? No shit sherlock.

Amir has been in the league longer than Bargnani. And see what you did there, you compared Amir going 12/15 with Bargnani going 23/3. But Bargnani can post 23 points and 3 rebounds any game, he has been averaging around there. On a good day, Bargnani can be great. He has grabbed 17 rebounds in a game once, which means that on a good day he can rebound. He can also score a lot, if we are talking about Bargnani at his best. And in certain games he actually defended really well. You see this whole thread is flawed, because any player at their best are going to be really good, and you can't compare that way. If Amir is going 12/15 on a good day, Bargnani can go for 40 points. I don't get what you are trying to prove here, that Amir on a great night is better than Bargnani on his average night? No shit sherlock.

So much BS in this post ^^^
Difference is Amir actually went for 12/15..Bargs has never scored 40 in a game and never will....Im proving and arguing that Amir Johnson is more of an impact player than Bargs at there bests....Bargnani at his best doesnt impact a game like Amir can...

So much BS in this post ^^^
Difference is Amir actually went for 12/15..Bargs has never scored 40 in a game and never will....Im proving and arguing that Amir Johnson is more of an impact player than Bargs at there bests....Bargnani at his best doesnt impact a game like Amir can...

hurts dont it ?

Um dude. Bargnani has gone 12/15 so many times already. You see Bargnani hasn't gone for 40 yet, but Amir has only had maybe 5 games like that one. How many big impact games has Bargnani had? And what bs are you talking about? I really am curious.

Um dude. Bargnani has gone 12/15 so many times already. You see Bargnani hasn't gone for 40 yet, but Amir has only had maybe 5 games like that one. How many big impact games has Bargnani had? And what bs are you talking about? I really am curious.

Bargnani has had so few double doubles in 5 seasons i could count them on 2 hands dude stop lying...and bargnani has had very few impact games in 5 seasons as well....

Where as Amir who has not been afforded the playing time that Bargnani has been GIVEN is now starting to get his thus you will see more dbl dbls from him this year then youll see in Andrea's career...

I point to last night his 16/8 in 28 mins..the stuff he does is more valuable....be mad about it...

Um dude. Bargnani has gone 12/15 so many times already. You see Bargnani hasn't gone for 40 yet, but Amir has only had maybe 5 games like that one. How many big impact games has Bargnani had? And what bs are you talking about? I really am curious.

Actually Bargnani never had more than 11 rebounds in game in his career until last season. He had done 11 three times before last season

^ No reason to even post actual refs we ALL know that that post was complete trash and exaggeration-age...

This Joe Panini guy doesnt even argue facts or reality...he tried to say Amir been in the league longer of course not mentioning for years he was stuck on the Pistons bench behind a contending team frontline....now that hes actually playing he is more valubale to this team,what be brings than Andreas shitty D and 4 RPG average but hey he already said he biased because of lineage so what else should you expect....

IF Andrea was not italian and white this guy wouldnt defend any of these crappy arguments...

^ No reason to even post actual refs we ALL know that that post was complete trash and exaggeration-age...

This Joe Panini guy doesnt even argue facts or reality...he tried to say Amir been in the league longer of course not mentioning for years he was stuck on the Pistons bench behind a contending team frontline....now that hes actually playing he is more valubale to this team,what be brings than Andreas shitty D and 4 RPG average but hey he already said he biased because of lineage so what else should you expect....

IF Andrea was not italian and white this guy wouldnt defend any of these crappy arguments...

Barganini is a piece of dung as a center. REAL centers average 10 boards a game in starter minutes. The excuses made for this wimp are unbelievable.

It's not like he's choosing to be a center.. His natural position is PF. That isn't an excuse.. It's the truth. The guy isn't a 'REAL' center? Why are you not able to comprehend this?

Trife76 wrote:
^ No reason to even post actual refs we ALL know that that post was complete trash and exaggeration-age...

This Joe Panini guy doesnt even argue facts or reality...he tried to say Amir been in the league longer of course not mentioning for years he was stuck on the Pistons bench behind a contending team frontline....now that hes actually playing he is more valubale to this team,what be brings than Andreas shitty D and 4 RPG average but hey he already said he biased because of lineage so what else should you expect....

IF Andrea was not italian and white this guy wouldnt defend any of these crappy arguments...

Why does everyone have to bring race into this? Why does it even matter.. It's not about race. That's a ridiculous uneducated excuse that people pull out of their asses. It's about him being our number one overall pick in his fifth year in the league, and a franchise who's seen too much failure in the last decade to simply give up on him. It's about hope. It's about a yearning to win, and succeed.. It might simply be a dream at this point, but what's the alternative? Give him away and watch him succeed on another team, while we remain worse off than we already were? (reminiscent of Alex Rios, and the Jays)

I don't even think you can argue what Amir brings to this team until he can get his fouls down. are we forgetting the start of the season when people were arguing how this was the worst signing in BC history, because he wasn't contributing anything besides PF's?

For those that say that Bargnani is a liability on the defensive end, I'd say that Johnson is just as much of a liability of the defensive end as well because he doesnt stay in front of his man and he commits too many fouls leading to him sitting on the bench. Both guys could be much better collectively on the defensive end.

However, at this present time, I can't say that Amir at his best is better than Andrea.

Raptors with Andrea on the floor: DRtg of 115.87
Raptors with Andrea on the bench: DRtg of 106.77
Difference is >9 pts (per 100 possessions) better defense with Andrea on the BENCH.

Raptors with Amir on the floor: DRtg of 107.92
Raptors with Amir on the bench: DRtg of 116.17
Difference is >8 pts (per 100 possessions) better defense with Amir on the FLOOR.

This is where the "yeah, but without Andrea's 18 points we wouldn't have been in the game". How about a guy that scores 10 AND prevents 10 at the defensive end?

Who creates more value? Or should the only measure of a player's effectiveness be points per game?

^ No reason to even post actual refs we ALL know that that post was complete trash and exaggeration-age...

This Joe Panini guy doesnt even argue facts or reality...he tried to say Amir been in the league longer of course not mentioning for years he was stuck on the Pistons bench behind a contending team frontline....now that hes actually playing he is more valubale to this team,what be brings than Andreas shitty D and 4 RPG average but hey he already said he biased because of lineage so what else should you expect....

IF Andrea was not italian and white this guy wouldnt defend any of these crappy arguments...

I find JoePanini one of the most reasonable people on this forum. While I don't always agree with him, especially when it comes to Bargnani, I always respect what he has to say because he says it with intelligence and courtesy. I've never seen him resort to racist insults. I'm afraid you made yourself look very bad with this comment.

It's not like he's choosing to be a center.. His natural position is PF. That isn't an excuse.. It's the truth. The guy isn't a 'REAL' center? Why are you not able to comprehend this?

WHat's the difference between a center and PF? They both are expected to do basically the same thing. And since Bargnani has often been defending and being defended by the other team's PF for at least half of the time, this season, why haven't we noticed a difference.

This argument is nonsense, I'm afraid. What Bargnani does on offense doesn't matter at all, as has been discussed ad nauseum. On defense, the only thing he is not bad at is post defense, which he would play less if he were defending more PFs. He'd still have to protect the paint and play team defense, and would still be a focus of the other team's offense. How do I know this? Because we've seen it this season. Even when he defends the other team's PF (and visa versa), he's still a liability on defense and has trouble rebounding the ball.

I'm sorry, but I'm just so sick of this argument when there is literally no basis for it. None.

^ No reason to even post actual refs we ALL know that that post was complete trash and exaggeration-age...

This Joe Panini guy doesnt even argue facts or reality...he tried to say Amir been in the league longer of course not mentioning for years he was stuck on the Pistons bench behind a contending team frontline....now that hes actually playing he is more valubale to this team,what be brings than Andreas shitty D and 4 RPG average but hey he already said he biased because of lineage so what else should you expect....

IF Andrea was not italian and white this guy wouldnt defend any of these crappy arguments...

I am a Bargnani fan. I am also Italian. I am also a Raptor and Basketball fan. I am not a Raptor fan just because Bargnani was drafted (although I was extremely happy when we drafted him), I have been a Raptors fan since day 1. If all you do is say shit about Raptor players I suggest you support another team.

I am a Bargnani fan. I am also Italian. I am also a Raptor and Basketball fan. I am not a Raptor fan just because Bargnani was drafted (although I was extremely happy when we drafted him), I have been a Raptors fan since day 1. If all you do is say shit about Raptor players I suggest you support another team.

By the way, you`re still happy they drafted him? and since when did italians ever advise a person NOT to hate on his team when italian fans do it all the time in Serie A? its part of the sport, you play like crap when everyone is expecting you to play great, you get hated, period.

By the way, you`re still happy they drafted him? and since when did italians ever advise a person NOT to hate on his team when italian fans do it all the time in Serie A? its part of the sport, you play like crap when everyone is expecting you to play great, you get hated, period.

So Bargnani is the only player on our team who is playing crap?

Actually, unless a player plays really badly (in basketball perspective it would be like Kobe getting 10 ppg or Bargnani getting 5) we don't boo our own players. Or unless they do something stupid or violent etc.. I'm a juventus fan, and last year Zebina insulted the team and the supporters, so we hate him. But let's say Amauri who was bought for 25 million euros a few years ago hasn't scored many goals, yet we still have hope in him and still cheer him on. All the hate on forums of football or newspapers or at the stadium is usually for the opposing players. I personally don't like hating players, I might complain (I have complained about Bargnani's game before, I still will) but complaining is different from hating and ranting. Very different.

Actually, unless a player plays really badly (in basketball perspective it would be like Kobe getting 10 ppg or Bargnani getting 5) we don't boo our own players. Or unless they do something stupid or violent etc.. I'm a juventus fan, and last year Zebina insulted the team and the supporters, so we hate him. But let's say Amauri who was bought for 25 million euros a few years ago hasn't scored many goals, yet we still have hope in him and still cheer him on. All the hate on forums of football or newspapers or at the stadium is usually for the opposing players. I personally don't like hating players, I might complain (I have complained about Bargnani's game before, I still will) but complaining is different from hating and ranting. Very different.

How about comparing the booing of Inter fans on Balotell? I know he`s a headcase but then what about Hedo when he`s was partying last year when the team was playing? you didn`t see the fans respond in a negative way until AFTER he left, thats respecting your players even if their douches bag.

How about comparing the booing of Inter fans on Balotell? I know he`s a headcase but then what about Hedo when he`s was partying last year when the team was playing? you didn`t see the fans respond in a negative way until AFTER he left, thats respecting your players even if their douches bag.

That's also different. I'm not an Inter fan, but from what I know he said Inter were going nowhere and that he wanted to go to City. This guy earned 200,000 euros a week with Inter and I think he also complained about his salary. Other booing was also racism from what I know, which I'm totally against, but just because people do it doesn't make it right. Many Juventus supporters were considered racists and I'm not proud of it. But that's those people, and you don't want to be like those people. You can choose to boo your own player, but how that helps I don't know.
Murders happen everyday, doesn't mean we should all go kill people. So just because certain individuals are racist, or hate on their own players, it doesn't make it right.

You are confusing me, first you tell me you are "supposed" to boo a player when they don't perform to expectation. Then you replied again trying to solidify your point, but then you see you were respectful and didn't hate Hedo till he left. What is your point now, I'm really confused sorry.