I think you are perhaps misunderstanding me or I need to clarify my post. LOL Renee is much better at explaining than I.

I never said that it was appropriate for a Fila to decide when it was time to defend rather I was making the point that a well socialized Fila that is exposed to different stimuli learns what is and what is not normal in the world around them, so rather than having a overtly aggressive dog lunging at everyone you have a confident dog that knows if defense is necessary (notice I said defense and not aggression?)

Here is a question for you guys, because I am very interested in living with a correct fila down the road.

Is it totally unreasonable to expect a correct fila to pass the TDI test? I do not plan on doing therapy work with a fila, and I do not expect it to be something the dog enjoys. I do however want to build a level of trust between my dogs and myself, and a level of socialization that would allow them to pass the test. And allow them to come with me places instead of being prisoners at home.

When the time is right for a fila, I want one for hunting/working livestock/moose lip kisses/entertainment. But I want one that isn't going to eat Aurelia's friends when they start wrestling with her (unless of course she is in high school, and her friends are boys....)

MY ideal Fila isn't going to test well because it's going to intuit that the decoy isn't a true threat. I don't ever, ever want my ideal Fila to react to "games" or to view bitework as something of a hobby.

I've watched Kharma with the occasional fool who thinks he wants to see how reactive she is. She totally blows them off. Literally. Eye rolls, disgusted looks, yawns, the whole bit. When some idiot thinks it's funny to peck on the car window she gives them just enough of a show to leave a dark, wet stain in their crotch, but she's clearly bored unless they do something that just really pisses her off.

But when the threat's been real, she's been serious and *ON*

I don't know how you test for that in contrived circumstances. They know when something's real and when it's a game, and a dog that's not game reactive is, for me, a great deal more dependable and a surer guardian.

I have no idea, though, how to weed out the BYBs and the Shoo-Its types.

__________________In a controversy the instant we feel anger we have already ceased striving for the truth, and have begun striving for ourselves. ~Buddha

Stupid is the most notoriously incurable and contagious disease known to mankind. If you find yourself in close proximity to someone infected with stupid, walk away as soon as said infection is noted.

There are few things more nauseating than pure obedience. ~ Kvothe

***8206;"silence is the language of god, all else is poor translation."
— Rumi
Be a god. Know when to shut up.

Romy, in my view of the world, that's not unreasonable, except if part of the test involves your Fila going with someone else, without you, and obeying them. That's how the test here at UT was done, and I would rather not have a Fila be amenable to that.

__________________In a controversy the instant we feel anger we have already ceased striving for the truth, and have begun striving for ourselves. ~Buddha

Stupid is the most notoriously incurable and contagious disease known to mankind. If you find yourself in close proximity to someone infected with stupid, walk away as soon as said infection is noted.

There are few things more nauseating than pure obedience. ~ Kvothe

***8206;"silence is the language of god, all else is poor translation."
— Rumi
Be a god. Know when to shut up.

Romy, in my view of the world, that's not unreasonable, except if part of the test involves your Fila going with someone else, without you, and obeying them. That's how the test here at UT was done, and I would rather not have a Fila be amenable to that.

The tester in our area doesn't do that. They do something where the tester takes the dog's leash and stands quietly with the dog while you go out of sight for three minutes. He doesn't try to interact with the dog, he just stands there with it and observe for signs of serious separation anxiety, like incessant barking and pacing. The dog is allowed to move around though. Mainly just stand there and look well adjusted.

Great post I understand- I agree some Fila in public do more harm than good.
I had one lunge for me for no reason,a nd then I got to pet a few( big thrill).

I do feel a Fila could pass a TDi as a exception to the rule.
TDi requires the dog to have a low defense drive and to be HUGGED by strangers.
I have 3 that passed and only two as adults out of 13 (CASDogs) than can do the work.
I learned not to promo them as Therapy dogs cause Therapy dogs for the most part should NOT defend period.

And the 1st part of a TDi test is a CGC and again stranger takes your dog.

Ive had dogs not take decoys too serious in the Atts TT cause they dont come ino past 10 ft but they do alert and get between u and the alleged bad guy..

These tests weed out the weekest dogs not select the best.
But it does teach the handler and later breeder allot of how stupid people can be and what to expect of the dog.

If I had taken my 1st CAs and just stayed home vs going to expos, tests, shows.seminars where I met other breeders and breeds and worked them, and tested them.
I would not understand what the public expects of a dog or what my buyers expect.

Public perception can win a election for someone.
Same applies for dog breeds public perception last a life time.

I just sold a dog based on LOSING a show 2 years ago.
I lost but the dog was stable confident loved and goofed ON me, was approuchable
on command and yes later passed TDI CGC and TT ( doing protection now).

So it is not about winning or passing but playing the game so the public can see these are not T rexs but just dogs plain and simple dogs that act a bit more this or that.
But in the end is just a dog. Its the macho my dog is tougher then your dog crowd that causes BSL.

IF a Fila ever does what a Presa did ( presa x) it will one day wind up like the pit Bull.
Seeing that writing on the wall i was hoping you guys could stop it.

__________________FoxFire Farms home to Only US Bred Total dogs, Show, work, Agility, rally, we do it all Working dogs of legends.World Champion Working Dogs.http://centralasianshepherd.homestead.comYou have enemies? Good. That means you've stood up for something, sometime in your life. ~ Winston Churchill
[B[/B].

You can also treat the 'supervised separation' as an out of sight stay- I've got a friend who passed it with a dog that way (dog was well-trained to IGNORE any commands (or interaction in general, unless released to greet) from strangers and return to handler EXCEPT when placed on a stay. :P)

All that said, I was NOT impressed by the one TT I've seen, and I wouldn't spend money on it again. All four instructors were protection dog people and seemed to have NO idea how to score a response of stepping back to let a handler deal with a situation OTHER than calling it fearful.

From R point of view is self preservation can take over where defense left off.

I had a CGC CGN done this weekend and a while the woman did the walk away and the owner hid- The dog was calm but then someone tried to sneek behind the tester and the dog barked and alerted a Fila could go into self preservation and react.

My dog passed ( my breeding) but I would of failed the dog in my mind as a protection dog .
I he allowed this person to sneek up behind him and the tester without telling her some stranger is hiding behind you.

So that 3 mins can turn into liability BIG time if the dog goes into any form of defense self or not.

__________________FoxFire Farms home to Only US Bred Total dogs, Show, work, Agility, rally, we do it all Working dogs of legends.World Champion Working Dogs.http://centralasianshepherd.homestead.comYou have enemies? Good. That means you've stood up for something, sometime in your life. ~ Winston Churchill
[B[/B].

The TT name is (C) by http://www.atts.org
But anyone can have a "temperament test" and score it like protection people or therapy dog people.

When I did my last 2 TT's both of my dogs after the agiation went to my left side I was not allowed to command them and look at them. And I said **** if they show fear we fail.
We passed and I asked the hubby HOW? he said they realised the bad guy was done at 10 ft and got between you and the silent 3 judges 4 ft from you.

So the scoring will be interesting to see. But it taught me never judge a book by its cover.. Mine was hosted by the Rottie Rochester club thus those Rottie people do it all - TDi - Tracking - protection good rounded people.

A tt is only as good as the host club.

__________________FoxFire Farms home to Only US Bred Total dogs, Show, work, Agility, rally, we do it all Working dogs of legends.World Champion Working Dogs.http://centralasianshepherd.homestead.comYou have enemies? Good. That means you've stood up for something, sometime in your life. ~ Winston Churchill
[B[/B].

Shouldn't all guardian breeders be doing this kind of testing? Or do most just assume their dogs can protect? If I were out looking for a breed who is supposed to protect, I would want some kind of testing done to prove their dogs. I wouldn't want to buy a presa or rottie and have it act like a golden retriever. I've seen very poor specimens, because it seems like breeders are only concentrating on "looks" alone. And they assume their dogs can protect just because they put up a good show behind a fence, in a vehicle, or on a tie out.

And what is the difference between the different protection breeds? Dont they all protect in the same way, or no? Or are they all unique in the way go about their duties?