If this is your first visit, be sure to
check out the FAQ by clicking the
link above. You may have to register
before you can post: click the register link above to proceed. To start viewing messages,
select the forum that you want to visit from the selection below.

Just out of interest, how much of the design was influenced by the Iron Kingdoms? I love that design style and I'm glad to see more people using it.

@Shoop: Horses for courses. Some people like WoW, some like ToR, some will like this. I personally like the art style of this game a lot which is making me look at it. I didn't like anything about Aion so I didn't pay attention to it.

To provide a less vitriol-filled critique (seriously Shoop, did someone poo in your cornflakes? :p)

Originally Posted by CrazyEthan

Wow Shooop, sorry, I noticed I missed your question the first time you posted...Didn't mean to leave you in the dark there, again, sorry.

As for your question, what's different about CoS, well, for one, it has a fresh setting. Instead of using a tired fantasy one that isn't really grounded on anything besides the common tropes, we give it a more industrial age spin (think steampunk-ish).

This has potential, although Guild Wars 2 and the Warhammer MMO both touched on "steampunk" to a degree. But I am still skeptical as to how much the setting will influence things, since people quickly saw that TOR was "WoW in space, with Jedi". Not that there is anything wrong with that, but I wouldn't really put the setting as too much of a selling point since it will instnatly devolve into "Yay... PotSmoker420 wants to team up with me. How quaint"

The quests are filled with lore and depth. No one you talk to will simply say "Follow me!" for no other reason than to lead you into killing some generic monster of boss. There are reasons, motivations, conflicts behind each action. There is more to the game world than just a place where NPCs 'exist'. They all have their own stories. Same with what race you pick, it determines your personal family quest line.

So TOR? I actually was surprised by how much effort Bioware put into even the random side quests on that front. But, at the end of the day, it was still a grind that I grew to hate with a passion.

Guild Wars 2 ironically went in the opposite direction and pretty much ignored all pretense of the quests being more than a grind, and it works. I no longer feel like I have a list of stuff I have to do, and instead I just do whatever seems fun at a given point.

And the personal quests thing has already been done by GW2 and TOR, so hard to really distinguish yourself with it.

If you prefer the customization side of things, upgrades and mods added to your weapon actually change its appearance, so you can tell (or show off if you're inclined) when someone's weapon is modified.

So we get into the "I want a strong item, but this upgrade looks like ass" angle, or you have ways to disable this. Don't get me wrong, I love the idea in theory. But there is a reason I have been using stones to make all my rifles look like the one I found at level 10 in Guild Wars 2.

To give some variety to "the grind", we also have Challenge Dungeons, which switch aroud from just having to "kill all the mobs" and give other objectives to complete, like racing to a given point, finding all treasures, breaking all breakables, which are especially fun in groups.

Personally, that sounds interesting to me, but I see two big problems with it:
1. The more detailed things are, the less pub-friendly a game is. There is a reason that ArenaNet had to drastically change the Winter event when they realized that keeping all the doylaks alive with a random group was nigh impossible. Because it just takes one griefer (or innocent newb) to screw up a team. So that boils down to needing to have dedicated groups, which has the potential to kill an MMO these days.
2. The hardcore MMO players LIKE the grind, so that leaves you the casuals. And TOR is an example of why the casuals can't keep a game alive.

Also, those "Challenge Dungeons" sound like a much less community-oriented version of the random events in Guild Wars 2. Which avoids the problems of 1 and 2 by NOT making you group up and instead just letting everyone in the area have fun.

On a more technical side, the game takes very little to load up and play. No long waiting times, no huge downloads or installs, just sign into your account and play (and yes, the game still looks that good despite being so light).

I would actually use this as your primary selling point. I am sure many people still have fond memories of Runescape, at least to the degree of being able to play it at work/at school/whatever with no real difficulties. As opposed to current MMOs that require you to set aside time to download and install everything on whatever computer you want to use.
I for one know I found it annoying to have to pre-download stuff in Guild Wars 1. Had to travel while playing, and I found myself periodically exiting the game to boot up my laptop, log-in, and grab all the assets for a new area while I still had good broadband (instead of hotel internet).

There's more of course (we have steambikes and jetpacks), but if there's anything specific you'd like to know, please ask (and I'll try not to miss it this time ;) ).

So mounts and sprint?

Honestly, nothing really distinguishes this from the current status quo of MMOs. That isn't necessarily a bad thing, but I think TOR shows what happens when you aspire to be "About the same as the current best". People who already love what they are playing won't see a reason to join your MMO, and new players only count for so much. Especially when Guild Wars 2 has pretty much alll of those features AND has a history of how they handle the microtransactions (In other words, they don't screw their players on anything other than cosmetics and slots while providing a crapton of new content on a regular basis).

Steam: Gundato
PSN: Gundato
If you want me on either service, I suggest PMing me here first to let me know who you are.

That reads like a canned press release for every single MMO ever made.

Quests filled with depth and lore? So what? Seen that already even in Skyrim. Didn't make actually going and killing those generic monsters and bosses any more fun. We don't need excuses to go dungeon crawling, we need the actual dungeon crawling to be fun.

I've already seen the "personal family quest" before when it was called "personal story" in Guild Wars 2. Still didn't make the game anything more than "get large group, stand there and press two keys until boss dies" boring crap. Again, the story didn't make the game, the gameplay made the game. And since the gameplay was crap...

So nothing. Just another crappy MMO.

Didn't mean to go off and sound like a press release there ;) Anyway, I suppose all I can say at this piont is try it for yourself and see once Beta comes out. Whether you'll personally find it fun? I honestly don't know, everyone has their tastes. Evidently you've been burned by other MMOs before, so it's best to let the game speak for itself either way.

Last edited by CrazyEthan; 30-01-2013 at 11:12 AM.

City of Steam - Fight in a land of belching furnaces, clockwork marvels, and ancient evils. Visit City of Steam on Facebook for screenshots, dev diaries, and news updates!

I despise "Mash two-three hotkeys until enemy dies" gameplay. That's what Guild Wars 2 was supposedly going to avoid and ended up being.

A story and setting don't make a game. They make the backdrop of a game - they don't matter nearly as much as what the player is doing during it. If it's going to be another game where the best way to play is to write a few macros, activate them, and then Alt+Tab to do something else for 10 minutes then we've already got plenty of those thanks.

You're telling us all about the setting and the story but nothing about what a player is actually going to be doing in them. Unless a game's story is offensively stupid (like Far Cry 3), it practically doesn't matter because the game's gameplay is what carries it.

Only if you are playing in really big groups and in really basic areas. With basic I mean non-dungeon, -WvW, -Fractals zones and even in places above level 50 - 60 you cannot do this without backup. So yes, it depends on the kind of battle/situation you're in. But saying the whole game is like that is just plain wrong. Assuming you played more than a few low-level areas.

It's all about the number of players. If you take on a giant alone, you'll get smashed no matter what - you can only dodge twice per a minute. Which means you are going to get hit no matter what. And in what may be the absolutely dumbest fucking idea in the history of RPGs ever, once you're hit or you attack something, your movement speed is cut in half. So much for "we want players to stay mobile".

So the only way to get anywhere after you leave the starting areas is to get as many other people together and hope you found enough to overwhelm the thing you're attacking. There's a reason the most popular classes in the game are the warrior and guardian - they're the only ones with working damage mitigation abilities.

Again, your experiences do not mirror my own in any way. You can dodge much more often that two times per minute, extra stamina regeneration from level, traits, equipment, boons make it so a thief can dodge every few seconds at higher levels.

Elementalist (mist form, block skills, teleport, ride the lightning), Necromancer (minions, mass blinds, death shroud), Thief (shadow steps, even on weapon skills [shortbow], blinds, stealth), Mesmer (illusions, phantasms, blinds, stealth, blink), heck, all classes have their ways of avoiding or mitigating damage, you just need to use them, they are right there.

You can do fine on your own, if you play carefully and use your skills actively. Sorry to see that you have missed all that, the combat system is much deeper than click 1, click 2, repeat.

It's all about the number of players. If you take on a giant alone, you'll get smashed no matter what - you can only dodge twice per a minute. Which means you are going to get hit no matter what. And in what may be the absolutely dumbest fucking idea in the history of RPGs ever, once you're hit or you attack something, your movement speed is cut in half. So much for "we want players to stay mobile".

So the only way to get anywhere after you leave the starting areas is to get as many other people together and hope you found enough to overwhelm the thing you're attacking. There's a reason the most popular classes in the game are the warrior and guardian - they're the only ones with working damage mitigation abilities.

...

Or you just don't enter an area until you are of the recommended level, avoid pulling everyone at once, and steer clear of the event-bosses unless people are around.

I run an Engineer solo almost all the time and never really have problems except for when I was going into the 60s areas to do the halloween event (when I was in the 30s :p). Currently in the 60s if I recall and still have no real problems.

Steam: Gundato
PSN: Gundato
If you want me on either service, I suggest PMing me here first to let me know who you are.

Again, your experiences do not mirror my own in any way. You can dodge much more often that two times per minute, extra stamina regeneration from level, traits, equipment, boons make it so a thief can dodge every few seconds at higher levels.

Only three times every minute with the trait (which I did have). Not exactly a game-changer. Not when an enemy attacks every second or more.

Originally Posted by squirrelfanatic

Elementalist (mist form, block skills, teleport, ride the lightning), Necromancer (minions, mass blinds, death shroud), Thief (shadow steps, even on weapon skills [shortbow], blinds, stealth), Mesmer (illusions, phantasms, blinds, stealth, blink), heck, all classes have their ways of avoiding or mitigating damage, you just need to use them, they are right there.

Teleports are on long cooldowns. Blinds don't work on "champion" enemies and wear off too quickly. Minions have rudimentary AI and hardly any HP. Shadow step has a pitifully limited range and a long cooldown. Stealth doesn't stop homing projectiles.

Like everything in GW2, it's all great on paper but the the devs were clueless in how to actually implement it. So we ended up with a better-looking and voice-acted WoW.

Originally Posted by squirrelfanatic

You can do fine on your own, if you play carefully and use your skills actively. Sorry to see that you have missed all that, the combat system is much deeper than click 1, click 2, repeat.

You can in low-level areas yes. Once you meet the zombies though going alone anywhere is suicide without a zerg rush to back you up. And don't even think about fighting bosses...

You can in low-level areas yes. Once you meet the zombies though going alone anywhere is suicide without a zerg rush to back you up. And don't even think about fighting bosses...

Then sign me up for the suicide squad!

Seriously dude, I do all that as a solo Engie. THe only thing I can't handle is (most) boss characters, and it is usually easy enough to say "Hey, SO and So is up at waypoint X" and you'll get two or three people to even it out.

Steam: Gundato
PSN: Gundato
If you want me on either service, I suggest PMing me here first to let me know who you are.

Only three times every minute with the trait (which I did have). Not exactly a game-changer. Not when an enemy attacks every second or more.

No. Much, much more often, say every 5-6 seconds. If you could dodge every second, where would be the point in attacking?

Originally Posted by Shooop

Teleports are on long cooldowns. Blinds don't work on "champion" enemies and wear off too quickly. Minions have rudimentary AI and hardly any HP. Shadow step has a pitifully limited range and a long cooldown. Stealth doesn't stop homing projectiles.

Like everything in GW2, it's all great on paper but the the devs were clueless in how to actually implement it. So we ended up with a better-looking and voice-acted WoW.

Well, if you plan on just staying there without moving, then you'll get pummeled, yes. The combat system is about movement, timing dodges, using skills like blocks and teleports at the right moment and to avoid standing in a crowd of enemies which will take you down quickly. I cannot really say what your expectations were, but the combat system is much more fluid and dynamic than in other MMOs.

Seriously dude, I do all that as a solo Engie. THe only thing I can't handle is (most) boss characters, and it is usually easy enough to say "Hey, SO and So is up at waypoint X" and you'll get two or three people to even it out.

Played both a thief and a necro. They're so laughably inept at anything but one-on-one combat with only minor enemies it's almost funny. Their only useful skills are on long cooldowns (the thief's eat initiative) and once you get to the Tarnished Coast(?) people stop being helpful. They know the enemies are just going to respawn a minute later so they just wait until someone else attracts their attention and then loot the area.

Originally Posted by squirrelfanatic

Well, if you plan on just staying there without moving, then you'll get pummeled, yes. The combat system is about movement, timing dodges, using skills like blocks and teleports at the right moment and to avoid standing in a crowd of enemies which will take you down quickly. I cannot really say what your expectations were, but the combat system is much more fluid and dynamic than in other MMOs.

I was expecting to actually, y' know... Move? Not just be free to slowly jog around an enemy to feel like I'm doing something other than relying on auto-attack and periodically a hotkey because they hit me anyway.

The movement speed penalty once the game considers you in combat pisses all over the concept of "stay mobile". There's not a whole lot of difference between standing still and trying to maneuver with it in effect.

Saying it's more fluid and dynamic than most MMOs is less a compliment to GW2 and more a sobering realization just how incredibly terrible MMO RPGs are. The world doesn't need an MMO with a different story, it needs one that's actually fun to play.

Played both a thief and a necro. They're so laughably inept at anything but one-on-one combat with only minor enemies it's almost funny. Their only useful skills are on long cooldowns (the thief's eat initiative) and once you get to the Tarnished Coast(?) people stop being helpful. They know the enemies are just going to respawn a minute later so they just wait until someone else attracts their attention and then loot the area.

I haven't really had that problem. I find most people I run into to be fairly helpful. The ones who aren't tend to be morons who don't understand how to pull.

Necro is a bit weak from what I hear, but Thief is one of the strongest classes. It is 1on1 oriented, but with the right weapons you have a good range and the ability to dart in and out of close combat

The movement speed penalty once the game considers you in combat pisses all over the concept of "stay mobile". There's not a whole lot of difference between standing still and trying to maneuver with it in effect.

uhm...

That is the opposite of the experience I have had. Yes, there are gonna be some attacks you can't avoid without a dodge, but you should be pretty safe from melee foes. Or you should at least have an attack to disengage from melee. For my ENgineer, that means using either my net, my overcharged shot (knockback), or my jumping attack thingie. And that isn't even considering stuff like the portable ram and the like.

Saying it's more fluid and dynamic than most MMOs is less a compliment to GW2 and more a sobering realization just how incredibly terrible MMO RPGs are. The world doesn't need another one, it needs a decent one.

Well, clearly you are not huge on the genre, and I will agree that GW2 is not an ARPG. But it definitely is one of the best MMORPGs when it comes to fluid combat where you do more than spam buttons.

Steam: Gundato
PSN: Gundato
If you want me on either service, I suggest PMing me here first to let me know who you are.

To provide a less vitriol-filled critique (seriously Shoop, did someone poo in your cornflakes? :p)

This has potential, although Guild Wars 2 and the Warhammer MMO both touched on "steampunk" to a degree. But I am still skeptical as to how much the setting will influence things, since people quickly saw that TOR was "WoW in space, with Jedi". Not that there is anything wrong with that, but I wouldn't really put the setting as too much of a selling point since it will instnatly devolve into "Yay... PotSmoker420 wants to team up with me. How quaint"

So TOR? I actually was surprised by how much effort Bioware put into even the random side quests on that front. But, at the end of the day, it was still a grind that I grew to hate with a passion.

Guild Wars 2 ironically went in the opposite direction and pretty much ignored all pretense of the quests being more than a grind, and it works. I no longer feel like I have a list of stuff I have to do, and instead I just do whatever seems fun at a given point.

And the personal quests thing has already been done by GW2 and TOR, so hard to really distinguish yourself with it.

So we get into the "I want a strong item, but this upgrade looks like ass" angle, or you have ways to disable this. Don't get me wrong, I love the idea in theory. But there is a reason I have been using stones to make all my rifles look like the one I found at level 10 in Guild Wars 2.

Personally, that sounds interesting to me, but I see two big problems with it:
1. The more detailed things are, the less pub-friendly a game is. There is a reason that ArenaNet had to drastically change the Winter event when they realized that keeping all the doylaks alive with a random group was nigh impossible. Because it just takes one griefer (or innocent newb) to screw up a team. So that boils down to needing to have dedicated groups, which has the potential to kill an MMO these days.
2. The hardcore MMO players LIKE the grind, so that leaves you the casuals. And TOR is an example of why the casuals can't keep a game alive.

Also, those "Challenge Dungeons" sound like a much less community-oriented version of the random events in Guild Wars 2. Which avoids the problems of 1 and 2 by NOT making you group up and instead just letting everyone in the area have fun.

I would actually use this as your primary selling point. I am sure many people still have fond memories of Runescape, at least to the degree of being able to play it at work/at school/whatever with no real difficulties. As opposed to current MMOs that require you to set aside time to download and install everything on whatever computer you want to use.
I for one know I found it annoying to have to pre-download stuff in Guild Wars 1. Had to travel while playing, and I found myself periodically exiting the game to boot up my laptop, log-in, and grab all the assets for a new area while I still had good broadband (instead of hotel internet).

So mounts and sprint?

Honestly, nothing really distinguishes this from the current status quo of MMOs. That isn't necessarily a bad thing, but I think TOR shows what happens when you aspire to be "About the same as the current best". People who already love what they are playing won't see a reason to join your MMO, and new players only count for so much. Especially when Guild Wars 2 has pretty much alll of those features AND has a history of how they handle the microtransactions (In other words, they don't screw their players on anything other than cosmetics and slots while providing a crapton of new content on a regular basis).

Hey gundato, sorry for the late response, as for your comments:

- Quests, the story is there for those who love to learn more about the lore, the story, and their place within it. You're completely free to skipp all that and grind, if you prefer; most areas are level-locked rather than quest-locked anyway (and the quest-locked ones won't prevent your progress into the main areas or anything)

- There is no current way to disable mod appearance changes to your weapon, but they are not overbearing changes that would be in the way. In further versions though, once the game has a good amount of content and can stand to take an extra polish, we can consider adding disabling mods from appearing on a weapon.

- We received a lot of similar feedback about challenge dungeons being too group-heavy in Closed-Beta, and are right now working on making them more solo-able. Some of course wil need a group to get a decent score, but those would be further in (for hardcore crowd), and not mandatory. They're something extra to do for those who do like some variety and to group up to achieve goals.

- The high accessibility (light load) of the game is indeed one of our main selling points, especially since it's a browser game. If I didn't know better, I'd almost think you're trying to insult our marketing skills :P

- And on that point, there's part of the flaw in thinking to compare us with AAA client games. Don't get me wrong, I'm honored you'd compare us to Guild Wars or TOR, but in the end, what we are is a superior *browser* game (like you said, with what Runescape was doing). Our main competition are other browser games, and compared to those out there right now, we both look great and have great accessibility.

Given that we do well enough and can grow, it would be awesome to try and compete with well-known client MMOs, but that's still a bit much to expect, and a monumental goal to try to achieve as a small developer.

Our aim is to have City of Steam offer the kind of quality and content that one would expect from a AAA client MMO game, but all easily accessible from a browser (again, that sounds pitch-y, I know, but there you go :P ). It's actually encouraging (and we're grateful) that we would be compared to those MMORPGs, but we're really mostly going for the browser crowd. We have nowhere near the team size or resources to compete with big MMO developers ;)

City of Steam - Fight in a land of belching furnaces, clockwork marvels, and ancient evils. Visit City of Steam on Facebook for screenshots, dev diaries, and news updates!

steampunk is a good idea. there are few good games out there exploiting the idea.
I'd say keep it up.
making the environment more interesting though should be one of the important details to consider. It makes players stick to the game.