They aren't jumping... they are pushing off the legs to transfer energy into the swinging motion. You have to time the leg trust with the hip/shoulder/arm/wrist motion in sequence.. So simply jumping won't help.

In general, the faster/harder servers get both feet off the ground as they hit and follow through. Is it necessary to do that to be a good server. No, there are very good servers who keep both (or one) foot planed (they may not ever reach the 140 mph velocity of the others.

They bend the knees and is more of a lean back and this is part of the bow and shoulder rotation, I highly recomend people to just let it happen naturally as you can learn an incorrect pattern very very quickly.

That is not an important part to a serve anyways your toss, racket drop, and shoulder rotation gives you all the power.

In general, the faster/harder servers get both feet off the ground as they hit and follow through. Is it necessary to do that to be a good server. No, there are very good servers who keep both (or one) foot planed (they may not ever reach the 140 mph velocity of the others.

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The feet off the ground is just a result of the hitting action as the racket is pulled through the shot from what I understand, so the uper body bends forward and the lower body is thus moved upwards, combined with the original force that went upwards in the racket swinging up?

The feet off the ground is just a result of the hitting action as the racket is pulled through the shot from what I understand, so the uper body bends forward and the lower body is thus moved upwards, combined with the original force that went upwards in the racket swinging up?

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It is not only an upward effort going to the ball but also a push from the toes to assist in the upward effort.

I beleive that there are, basically, two benefits to getting ones feet off the ground, and this applies only to advanced players. The writer up above, who said you can mess up your serve is correct. Serving, well, is difficult enough. Throwing all your weight up and into the court is for the highly co-ordinated.

Anyway, the two benefits are 1, it gives you a higher vantage point from which to hit the ball down into the service court (enabeling one to hit harder and keep the ball in.

The other benefit 2, is basically the same, it brings you slightly closer to the net without stepping onto the court and foot-faulting-- also giving you an improved angle to keep a faster/flatter ball in the service court.

Most likely a taller person 6'4" and up could find a similar angle with planted feet or by simply stepping foreward into the court after contact.

The toes do not aply any appreciable force themselves, you need to go back to school. And certainly do not push off anything, that is the knee extensors, hip extensors, and flexion of the calf dumby. :mrgreen:

Further more what you're old feeble mind may be trying to express is that energy is transfered from the BALLS of the feet to the ground that was originally produced from the rest of the body in the bow/coil position

Toes do nothing, as this is not dance class fruity old man

Get a book on bio mechanics, though I don't think it would do you any good

The toes do not aply any appreciable force themselves, you need to go back to school. And certainly do not push off anything, that is the knee extensors, hip extensors, and flexion of the calf dumby. :mrgreen:

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Oh, now it is personal. I thought you were the one complaining about "personal attacks"? Well, here goes Einstein. Springing from the toes is an important element in a person that rises from an entire kinetic chain. It is clear that professional players use their toes as a spring board to help in the thrust upward. I just proved it with film that the toes are indeed involved. How much they contribute to upward thrust? That is another topic that requires analysis. But they do indeed contirbute to upward thrust in a serve and are important in helping a player send his energy upward. This is something you said isn't happening.

Further more what you're old feeble mind may be trying to express is that energy is transfered from the BALLS of the feet to the ground that was originally produced from the rest of the body in the bow/coil position

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Whether you want to use balls of the feet or not. The truth of the matter is the toes are certainly involved in the serve motion. They provide that extra pushoff from the balls of the feet AND THE TOES. So your information above was false and misleading once again.

Toes do nothing, as this is not dance class fruity old man

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In order to balance yourself on the BALLS of the feet the toes must be involved. They have the strength in them that help a player push-off. Simply getting on the balls of your feet does nothing without pressure being applied in the toes!!! Keep it coming. LOL

Get a book on bio mechanics, though I don't think it would do you any good

Oh, now it is personal. I thought you were the one complaining about "personal attacks"? Well, here goes Einstein. Springing from the toes is an important element in a person that rises from an entire kinetic chain. It is clear that professional players use their toes as a spring board to help in the thrust upward. I just proved it with film that the toes are indeed involved. How much they contribute to upward thrust? That is another topic that requires analysis. But they do indeed contirbute to upward thrust in a serve and are important in helping a player send his energy upward. This is something you said isn't happening.

Whether you want to use balls of the feet or not. The truth of the matter is the toes are certainly involved in the serve motion. They provide that extra pushoff from the balls of the feet AND THE TOES. So your information above was false and misleading once again.

In order to balance yourself on the BALLS of the feet the toes must be involved. They have the strength in them that help a player push-off. Simply getting on the balls of your feet does nothing without pressure being applied in the toes!!! Keep it coming. LOL

Already have. lol

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This is the most bio-mechanicaly incorrect analysis I have ever heard.

Toes are for stability reason almost exclusively, quit trying to save face.

The balls of feet, heels, toes ect do not produce any force, muscles do.

Have you ever heard of an Olympic trainer of any sort or of a physical trainer of any sort making a program for the toes?

Give me a break!

You don't even know what hip extensors are with out googling it, do you know how ankle flexion is achieved?

Dude! Wake up! In a serve, you do indeed push off from the toes! It is not jumping in its pure sense. Just as you push off the ground as you would in sprints, when a player (for example) moves into a PINPOINT stance, as they lift off the ground FROM THEIR THIGHS, or LEGS, the last part is a push-off from the toes! Is this hard for you to understand?

LOL!!! This is great. IT IS BECAUSE OF POOR TECHNIQUE! Poor technique also exsisted when the racquets were WOOD!

Still waiting for you to prove that the toe push off is not part of the kinetic chain!

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We see pro's doing this on purpose IE Justine recently made the switch, it reduces errors, So that they can focuse on making points with ground strokes IMO is only going around the problem and not addressing it.

You can't debate a moron like you, cause you use moron logic LOL, further more you are the one that made the assertion that the TOES produce force in the serving motion.

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LOL, well, once again, I have to show you what was said.

"Originally Posted by jackson vileThe feet off the ground is just a result of the hitting action as the racket is pulled through the shot from what I understand, so the uper body bends forward and the lower body is thus moved upwards, combined with the original force that went upwards in the racket swinging up?

Bungalo Bill: It is not only an upward effort going to the ball but also a push from the toes to assist in the upward effort.

There for the burdon of proof is on you, that is how it works in the real wold.

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LOL, figures, you have nothing. Already showed my evidence Einstein.

As for my points, pick up human bio-mechanics book, or better yet go to school and stop making youself look stooooopid LOL:mrgreen:

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Already have Einstein. the serve motion is not a pure jump. The server rolls onto the toes and the toes add lift-off or spring. It is painfully obvious that the toes, calves, thighs, hips, stomach, shoulders, arms, etc...are all part of the kinetic chain in a good pwerful serve.

I think a good serve for new players to the 3.5 level is on the ground with a medium swing speed, loose/relaxed & fluid and loopy serve. You can get that consistent and it's relatively easy to place it where you want (as you aren't swingly wildly). It's better than pushing the ball in -- which is what I see with a lot of players.

4.0 I'd suggest starting to get off the ground. But it's difficult as you need to make sure you strengthen your shoulders and body. I've seen too many people throw out their shoulders/arms trying to serve that way (pushing off the ground).

"Originally Posted by jackson vileThe feet off the ground is just a result of the hitting action as the racket is pulled through the shot from what I understand, so the uper body bends forward and the lower body is thus moved upwards, combined with the original force that went upwards in the racket swinging up?

Bungalo Bill: It is not only an upward effort going to the ball but also a push from the toes to assist in the upward effort.

LOL, figures, you have nothing. Already showed my evidence Einstein.

Already have Einstein. the serve motion is not a pure jump. The server rolls onto the toes and the toes add lift-off or spring. It is painfully obvious that the toes, calves, thighs, hips, stomach, shoulders, arms, etc...are all part of the kinetic chain in a good pwerful serve.

Keep learning.

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The Toes do not produce any force, you stated they did.

The balls of the foot mearly transfer the energy of the rest of the body form the kenetic chain, that is all, the balls of the foot do not produce any force either

The balls of the foot mearly transfer the energy of the rest of the body form the kenetic chain, that is all, the balls of the foot do not produce any force either

What don't you get?

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Geee Einstein, I guess you like to turn things backward. Would you like me to be specific?

The tendons and muscles of the feet can create pushoff from the ground. This is very common in a professional serve. The toes and balls of the feet are what the player balances on and executes his push-off.

The calve muscles of the lower leg also contribute to this push-off as they work with the feet and in applying force or pressure. These muscles include the Gastrocnemius and the Soleus muscle groups.

When a player is extending upward to the ball, the push-off from the toes greatly helps a player rise off the ground as the body uses upward momentum. The spring in the feet/toes from the elasticity of the muscles and tendons in the feet along with the pressure against the ground assist a player in the rise.

So indeed it is not only obvious in professional film, it is part of the effort to thrust oneself off the ground. The toe push-off does indeed add force to a players serve.

It is very easy to prove this pushoff. simply get on your toes and push yourself off the ground.

The pinpoint stance affords one to balance themselves on their toes/balls of the feet and helps a player utilize the upward force by using the ground as a spring board.

You are a moron as tendons do not creat energy or force, what a shmuck!

Balancing on the toes is what a ballerina does when dancing, I guess you went to the wrong classes ahahahhahahha

Do you even know what reactive strength and the stretch shortening cycle has to do with the serve?

You don't even know what you are saying, you are making this up as you go along.

No the soleus in this situation is nothing more than as stabilizer as with most movements. You do not even understand what the solues role is in planter flexion do you even know what that is? You know nothing of biomechanics

The feet in no shape or form assist elevation off the ground other than as a medium to transfer energy from the kinetic chain, none of which came from the toes

JV,
Are you only picking up these biomechanic books or are you actually reading them? If you are reading them, then it is a sad day for the field of human kinetics when you graduate. You are only book smart without any street sense. Yes, you can use those terms in your argument but your application of it is all wrong. You could only be right if you are referencing a flat footed serve that beginners tend to do. Maybe you serve that way. I don't know.

BB,

I agree. I don't see people leaving the ground on their heels or the balls of their feet. The last thing touching the ground ARE your toes. Maybe JV serves with his tibialis anterior, extensor hallicus longus and the peroneus tertius muscles flexed causing his feet and toes to point upward?

JV,
Are you only picking up these biomechanic books or are you actually reading them? If you are reading them, then it is a sad day for the field of human kinetics when you graduate. You are only book smart without any street sense. Yes, you can use those terms in your argument but your application of it is all wrong. You could only be right if you are referencing a flat footed serve that beginners tend to do. Maybe you serve that way. I don't know.

BB,

I agree. I don't see people leaving the ground on their heels or the balls of their feet. The last thing touching the ground ARE your toes. Maybe JV serves with his tibialis anterior, extensor hallicus longus and the peroneus tertius muscles flexed causing his feet and toes to point upward?

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Wow you really proved BB's thesis You know little and it shows, do you even know what the argument is? Of course the plantor flexes, hip extends, and the knees flex, that is how the legs straighten, duh as with any extending movement of this type, other wise it is impossible. The fingers are the last thing to touch a discus, so by your reasoning that must mean that they are a prime mover

i don't think the toes play a role in the serve, and i don't think i'd focus on the toes to tell you the truth 'cause other things are more important and need to be focused on. And about pushing off the ground with the legs and all, wait for the next serve step to clarify that more. Point is students go about it the wrong way, the jumping and all. Yes the legs do a little pushing, but that's not where it starts and how that all works.

thanks for the email.

Mark

Heck even Mark agrees with me, the toes of the foot do not produce any apreciable force and are only used inorder to transfer energy derived from the stretch shortening cycle of the muscles involved in the kenetic chain maximizing force applied. That is why the hip stretch is so important to the highest level of serving.

The movement is a bowing out so that force is generated forward upon release, snapping forward. It is all at his webiste, so dont' take my word for it.

The feet off the ground is just a result of the hitting action as the racket is pulled through the shot from what I understand, so the uper body bends forward and the lower body is thus moved upwards, combined with the original force that went upwards in the racket swinging up?

Personally (meaning for me, other might not agree), serving flatfooted does absolutely nothing. Whether or not it's conscious, the toes (or at least the toeish area, the front part of my foot, whatever) gets involved, acting as a spring, which allows me to actually get up into the serve... the jump effect, I guess.

Not going to name names, but are you just argueing for the sake of it?

B Bill is right here it's time to stop argueing. You're say the same thing as the other. If you go to the balls of your feet your going to be on your toes, if you leap or take off from this position the last thing touching the ground will be your toes.

No one ever said anything about serving flat footed, with out plantar flexion, I certainly did not.

BB is saying that the toes are responsible for the lift you get when jumping

And here are the facts:

The Golgi organ is what is responsible for runner, jumpers, ect to be able to crouch just like in the serve store that energy and then re-use some of that energy to produce a more forceful movement than would have been possible other wise.http://www.podiatrychannel.com/Images/ft_bckvw2.jpg

That is the science of using plyometrics (form of training the stretch shorten cycle) to be able to jump high and run faster. Also the cornerstone to the whole reason we bow/hip stretch in tennis being a vital role in the kinetic chain.

Description
The Achilles tendon is the largest tendon in the human body. It is located at the back of the ankle joint and can be felt as a large, cord-like structure attaching to the back of the foot. Since tendons serve to attach muscles to bone, the Achilles tendon also attaches the large calf muscles, the gastrocnemius, to the back of the heel bone, the calcaneus.
The muscle mass and strength of the gastrocnemius muscle are greater than all of the other muscles of the lower leg combined. Therefore, the pull of this muscle on the Achilles tendon is very large since these muscles help balance the body while standing, push the body forward during walking, spring the body forward during running, and spring the body upward during jumping
So we can see here that the Achilles tendon attaches to the ball of the foot, and not the toes.http://www.human-anatomy.net/anatomy-leg-pictures.htmlhttp://www.podiatrychannel.com/Images/ft_sdvw.gif
You can see clearly that no major muscles or tendons attach here
Finally as an experiment try jumping up and down with the toes curled upwards,
Now try to jump with out touching the balls of the feet on the ground, just heal and toes
This is the final proof that the toes produce no appreciable force into the jump and BB is WRONG!

Don't think about jumping, your body will propel itself off the ground naturally if it is hit hard enough. Anyone serving over 90 mph will naturally come off the ground. When Tiger Woods was asked to hit the ball has hard as he can his body went air born and came back down to earth. Worry less about jumping and work on your motion.