Marquez's transformation over such a short period of time is pretty telling, especially so late in life. While Pacquiao did run into the last punch, the first one that knocked him down was not that solid yet it still planted him on his ass. Marquez landed plenty of solid punches in the first 3 fights and there was never this effect.

armbarseverywhere - Manny stepped square into the space between JMM's hips and caught a flush shot. There isn't a single steroid that can capitalize on that mistake. It was pure physics and boxing science coupled with great timing and years of training. No amount of PED can set that up for a fighter as well as Manny set up his own KO.

armbarseverywhere - Manny stepped square into the space between JMM's hips and caught a flush shot. There isn't a single steroid that can capitalize on that mistake. It was pure physics and boxing science coupled with great timing and years of training. No amount of PED can set that up for a fighter as well as Manny set up his own KO.

So he never ever caught Manny with a flush shot in 3 (36 round 108 mins of fighting) other fights?

Reem has an unnatural amount of muscle on him. If you look around natural bodybuilding shows, a literal handful of competitors have a comparable physique, and those guys are accused of using.

Marquez is merely cut/ripped. His build is absolutely achievable as a natural athlete. I know guys in BJJ who are just as lean and "big" as him, who are hobbyists who watch their diet.

That said, FUCK/YEAH the guy's on something. These are million dollar athletes who aren't tested in between fights, lol.

Rumors suggest Mayweather may have used leading up to a recent fight, and I won't be surprised if Pac used too. If you don't think these guys are on SOME form of illegal PED, you need to read up on things. Check out interviews done by Heredia himself, or Joe Rogan's recent podcast with Conte. Too easy to get away with, plenty of upside.

Also, to suggest that PEDs were somehow responsible for Marquez's KO last night is, well, ignorant. Has he hit Manny like that in previous fights? Sure. But he also hit Manny pretty hard a number of times leading up to the KO. This time, he had his 143lbs behind it, in addition to Manny stepping in with a southpaw jab.

Marquez gained a little muscle, but he didn't become a muscle-bound monster. He filled out his frame, PEDs or not. He's still smaller than Pac, and smaller than Mayweather.

2:09PM EST December 8. 2012 - LAS VEGAS — About this there can be no debate: Since hiring former PEDs supplier-turned-government witness Angel "Memo'' Hernandez as his strength coach last year, Juan Manuel Marquez's body has undergone a startling transformation. On Friday, his rippled physique was on dramatic display at the MGM Grand Arena.

The lingering uncertainty is how, at 39, did Marquez suddenly uncover a boxing fountain of youth in the form of impressive new muscle mass?

MORE: Pacquiao, Marquez each hope to end story with clear win

During the weigh-in for his fourth bout against Manny Pacquiao on Saturday night, the Mexican warrior did not look like a fighter who had engaged in five dozen brutal ring wars since 1993. Marquez tipped the scales at 143 pounds, four pounds under the maximum weight for a welterweight fight; Pacquiao, 33, weighed the maximum 147 pounds, the most he has ever weighed for a fight..

Freddie Roach, Pacquiao's trainer, recently told USA TODAY Sports that he wanted both camps to submit to pre-fight testing for performance-enhancing drugs because he is suspicious of Marquez's new physique.

"I asked Manny to do a drug test for this fight because I believe that Marquez is a much bigger person now — and I'm not sure exactly how he is getting there,'' Roach said.

The source of Roach's wariness is Hernandez, whose name was Angel Guillermo Heredia when he testified for the federal government in the BALCO steroids case in 2008, receiving immunity from prosecution for drug trafficking.

Roach said on Friday he was "just joking" and that he "meant no harm" by his comments about Marquez's bulked-up body.

Hernandez has a degree in kinesiology from Texas A&M and a sordid past when it comes to distributing illegal performance-enhancing drugs.

The former Mexican national champion discus thrower was an admitted supplier of numerous PEDs, including growth hormone and testosterone, to world-class athletes. For years, he worked with a number of star Olympians through now-banned track and field coach Trevor Graham.

Hernandez told prosecutors that former sprint star Maurice Greene paid him $40,000 for steroid creams, insulin, EPO and stimulants in 2003 and 2004.

Marquez, 39, repeatedly has denied he uses performance-enhancing drugs. He says that Hernandez has introduced him to scientific training methods that have enabled him to become stronger and faster at an age when virtually all fighters experience a physical decline.

"You have to understand that I'm a scientist and not just a strength coach,'' Hernandez told reporters this week. "Weight training has changed and a lot and evolved and, in the past, you would not see strength coaches around boxers.''

Hernandez claimed he has training "secrets'' that he does not want to disclose for competitive-advantage reasons.

"I don't want people to copy (my methods), but it's all legal, it's all within the law, and it's not illegal stuff,'' he said.

Marquez, asked by HBO whether weight was important for a fighter, said, "No. speed, intelligence and strength are most important."

armbarseverywhere - Manny stepped square into the space between JMM's hips and caught a flush shot. There isn't a single steroid that can capitalize on that mistake. It was pure physics and boxing science coupled with great timing and years of training. No amount of PED can set that up for a fighter as well as Manny set up his own KO.

This is pretty spot on. Just a perfectly timed punch. I was rooting for Pac but im also a huge fan of Marquez and really hope he didnt take any peds.

armbarseverywhere is correct in his statement, BUT for Marquez who is not known for his KO ability & known as a counterpuncher...to knock down Manny twice is bit suspect.

The increased dramatic improvement of Marquez in the past 2-3 years in his LATE thirties is even more suspect.

The before & after pictures of Marquez from the Floyd Mayweather fight to his Manny Pacquiao fight speaks volumes AND raises a lot of red flags.

Who knows who is on what but the comment about roids not being a potential cause of the KO is off base. PEDs won't help your timing or boxing IQ but they sure as hell will give you more power for a longer time.

JMM always was a slick counter puncher catching Manny clean in every one of their fights. He went from never phasing him with those same shots to a cold KO. With everything else it's enough to raise an eyebrow. Still doesn't change the fact Pac shouldn't have been fighting him in the first place as it is stylistically a bad matchup and he already won three times (draw was a scoring error by one judge in the first dammit!).

bknumber1 -
Who knows who is on what but the comment about roids not being a potential cause of the KO is off base. PEDs won't help your timing or boxing IQ but they sure as hell will give you more power for a longer time.

JMM always was a slick counter puncher catching Manny clean in every one of their fights. He went from never phasing him with those same shots to a cold KO. With everything else it's enough to raise an eyebrow. Still doesn't change the fact Pac shouldn't have been fighting him in the first place as it is stylistically a bad matchup and he already won three times (draw was a scoring error by one judge in the first dammit!).

If youre a guy who thought the trilogy was 2-0-1 for JMM already, then this talk is kind of ludicrous.

Somebody else said it best. If you think Pac or JMM are completely cean, you dont know shit. If you think PEDs had anything to do with Manny leaping in with his hands down and catching the hardest right JMM has thrown in 40 rounds right on the chin, you dont know shit about boxing.

8flat - Similar argument was made about Barry Bonds, BIg Mac, etc.....roids don't improve your hand-eye coordination, etc. But you can't argue that it doesn't make you hit harder......

Good argument. However swinging a bat is a little different than throwing a punch. A punch has little to no resistance on it. It's a bit further down on the speed/strength curve. If you hang around boxing gyms, you will hear stories of muscle-bound guys who throw soft punches, and small guys with tremendous power.

In other words there's a lot more going on than muscle gain. There's leverages, shoulder girdle stability, technique, that whole kinetic chain thing.

Either way, it doesn't take a lot to KO someone, no matter who they are (Mark Hunt types notwithstanding), and Manny straight up walked into that right. People saying the KO was proof of PED use do not realize that their argument has a built in counter-argument:

-If Marquez and Pac fought 3 times without a KO, something must be off.-If Marquez and Pac fought 3 times without a KO, it's about time someone got caught.

You will notice a lack of boxers talking about the KO as being indicative of PED use. This is not because they are users themselves. This is because they know such a sentiment is false.

Arum mocked reports coming out of Team Mayweather that a May fight date has been reserved for the biggest fight possible, a hint that the undefeated American has finally agreed to step into the ring against Pacquiao.

“Same old bull …,” said Arum.

“They’re just trying to take attention away from Manny,” added the Top Rank chief.

Attempts to forge a Pacquiao-Mayweather duel, arguably the biggest match that could be staged in the sport, had collapsed twice previously due to disputes over drug testing protocols—despite the fighters being penciled to earn at least $50 million each.

Mayweather has constantly batted for Olympic-style drug tests, while Pacquiao, refusing to be bullied into such a condition, said he is willing to undergo tests based on already established boxing norms.

Mayweather is facing libel charges filed by Pacquiao over his claim that the reigning pound-for-pound king has used performance-enhancing drugs.

Marquez is also faced with the same rumors because of his association with Angel Hernandez, who used to work for controversial Balco founder Victor Conte, who now works as Nonito Donaire Jr.’s conditioning coach.

Marquez has denied the accusation, and Roach isn’t lending credence to them either.

“A lot of people want to point fingers and say he [Marquez] is doing bad things,” said Roach. “But I’m not going to do that because I’m tired of that being done to me. It looks like he’s working hard and that’s what he’s supposed to do in this game.

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