Free to play, microtransaction, etc... regardless.. It's an MMO. I try hard to understand but I still can't wrap my head around why people leave the game complaining that there isn't anything to do and how GW2 end game is a disappointment. What did they expect?

If this was any other monthly fee MMO people would just be in the illusion that there is an end game while they grind for max level and incrementally small upgrades. Not saying that GW2 is free of that, in fact grinding for legendaries is ridiculously long. The grind exists in GW2 like any other MMO just that they made a lot of things easily accessible unlike other MMOs and also smartly hides a lot of things. People are leaving the game for the most obcure reasons as if they have to forcefully find negative critiques.

Anyone have comments or ideas to help me understand this existential dilemma!

The thing is other games like WoW makes the grind interesting and at least semi-enjoyable, in GW2 you get slapped with DR and are basically told not to play anymore.. you aren't even allowed to grind in GW2.

Well, allot of people I know who leave do so because that gear grind they are used to is for stats and not cosmetics. I much prefer grinding for cosmetics myself but I guess everybody just feels like the grind is more worth it for stats? There are allot of other issues to why people leave but I was gearing this towards what you said concerning end-game. I know allot of people who have left because of other issues.

The explanation I just tell myself to simplify any reason people may leave is this isn't the game for everybody. It is the game for me though.

I'm waiting on the update this month to see if I even bother following the game or not. And it has nothing to do with lacking an endgame grind.

1) Gameplay systems. Traits don't allow for enough customization due to not having a large enough effect on gameplay. Skills are far too simplistic and the dodge mechanic doesn't add enough to the game to warrant them being so simple. Either add more of a visceral first person shooter/moba type twitch mechanics or beef skills up to have more depth/complexity like other MMOs or RPGs.

2) Repeatability/Event difficulty. This does in a way play into endgame, but not in the way most interpret it. Replaying existing content is fine, but if the difficulty isn't properly tuned you either steamroll content or can't do it due to not enough players. I'd love to replay low level zones but the tuning is so off there's no reason to. More lasting impact on the world would also add more interest/motivation for players.

I said it from the start, Anet has more incentive is to be attractive to new players, than to be attractive to current players. The current players they want to be attractive to are the 5% who would cough up vast amounts of money to buy gems, usually to get their legendary or two.

Having said that, all the dungeons need a major rework to make each path unique and each boss fight interesting, and of course, to normalize the difficulty and rewards between paths. The novelty of the difference between the paths currently are only in the story, once you've done each once, they are very samey. Bosses can have more interesting mechanics.

Mob groups can have more interesting mechanics rather than just outnumbering players with 2 mob types. What happened to the mob groups in GW1 where you have to be careful which mob to control, which mob to spike down first, etc. We had that in your average mission zone in Nightfall, but we don't have that in the dungeons here.

Improving these things would be attractive both to new players and current players.

i've never played GW1, so this question isn't intended to sound sarcastic at all. was GW1 as good as it ended up being right from the start, or did it take a while to get there? i'm just curious, because i see people saying GW1 was so good at such and such, but GW2 is still bad in such and such way.

of course, you could say that if certain things were already in a game x amount of years ago, then why couldn't they also have them in this game at launch, which i would agree with. i just hope they bring back some of the awesome sounding ideas from GW1 into this game, because i want more fun content that won't lose its luster so quickly, especially on the PvE side of things.

i've never played GW1, so this question isn't intended to sound sarcastic at all. was GW1 as good as it ended up being right from the start, or did it take a while to get there? i'm just curious, because i see people saying GW1 was so good at such and such, but GW2 is still bad in such and such way.

of course, you could say that if certain things were already in a game x amount of years ago, then why couldn't they also have them in this game at launch, which i would agree with. i just hope they bring back some of the awesome sounding ideas from GW1 into this game, because i want more fun content that won't lose its luster so quickly, especially on the PvE side of things.

Gw1 took a loooooooooooong time to get all the stuff people say is 'awesome endgame'.

Location:Chilling with my peeps Devona, Mhenlo, and Cynn in the Mists.

Profession:Guardian

Guild Tag:[EXP]

Server:Underworld

Posted 13 January 2013 - 01:40 AM

When did UW and FoW come out? Do you remember GW1 endgame at launch? 5 months after launch? Lol.

Anet has admitted there is not a large endgame, and is actively working on fixing it, whether it be adding more areas/dungeons or giving players incentive to run lower level areas.

Um not to be a wet blanket, but Fissure of Woe and Underworld were out at release, the only requirement to get in was to be Ascended. and about 5 months after launch they released Grenth's Footprint (IE Sorrow's Furnace), which was in many ways considered another 'end game' area.

Personally I find all this doom and gloom crap just that, crap. I find the game to be fun and enjoyable without holding a weight over my head to play a certain amount of time every day like when my friends and I ran a server first raid guild on WoW. The 'endgame' people are looking for will come, but most likely be in the form of more difficult dungeons, or areas, things that actually challenge you as a player, not your gear.

Um not to be a wet blanket, but Fissure of Woe and Underworld were out at release, the only requirement to get in was to be Ascended. and about 5 months after launch they released Grenth's Footprint (IE Sorrow's Furnace), which was in many ways considered another 'end game' area.

Personally I find all this doom and gloom crap just that, crap. I find the game to be fun and enjoyable without holding a weight over my head to play a certain amount of time every day like when my friends and I ran a server first raid guild on WoW. The 'endgame' people are looking for will come, but most likely be in the form of more difficult dungeons, or areas, things that actually challenge you as a player, not your gear.

Edit: Clarity on what Grenth's Footprint is.

Fissure of Woe and the Underworld was basically all there was that was endgame content when gw1 first released, and your country had to be in control of a pvp mode in order for you to have access (they later changed this so that they were basically always open). When I was playing during this period of time Europe was always in control, so that left southern shiverpeaks, where 55 monks solo farmed trolls. That "endgame" was pathetic compared to gw2's. There was a reason why so many people got the impression that gw1 was focused on pvp, though I did like the pve a lot more once nightfall came out.

The amount of customization wasn't really better either, they've added a lot of skills to gw1 since it first came out. Instead of traits you had attributes, which didn't change how things worked, just how effective they were. Using a sword with 0 swordsmanship meant you'd do 0-2 damage. And in the end, it was very unbalanced, which is why there were 55 monks soloing enemies in a game built around 8 man parties. Oh, I should explain that the term 55 monks is referencing the healing class which has 55 hp, where normal amounts of hp are 500+.

It wasn't uncommon for builds that were broken for certain circumstances to be discovered, but that's partly because there was great incentive to do so. When you get 8 times the reward for soloing as opposed to playing normally... and usually faster because those broken builds usually killed a whole lot faster (or more at a time) pretty much anyone that wanted to make money tried to find such a system. Eh, but maybe I'm just justifying doing it myself.

Basically, my point is that the combat system, loot system, and yes the amount of content is better than gw1's was when it first came out.

Location:Chilling with my peeps Devona, Mhenlo, and Cynn in the Mists.

Profession:Guardian

Guild Tag:[EXP]

Server:Underworld

Posted 13 January 2013 - 02:14 AM

Fissure of Woe and the Underworld was basically all there was that was endgame content when gw1 first released, and your country had to be in control of a pvp mode in order for you to have access (they later changed this so that they were basically always open). When I was playing during this period of time Europe was always in control, so that left southern shiverpeaks, where 55 monks solo farmed trolls. That "endgame" was pathetic compared to gw2's. There was a reason why so many people got the impression that gw1 was focused on pvp, though I did like the pve a lot more once nightfall came out.

The amount of customization wasn't really better either, they've added a lot of skills to gw1 since it first came out. Instead of traits you had attributes, which didn't change how things worked, just how effective they were. Using a sword with 0 swordsmanship meant you'd do 0-2 damage. And in the end, it was very unbalanced, which is why there were 55 monks soloing enemies in a game built around 8 man parties. Oh, I should explain that the term 55 monks is referencing the healing class which has 55 hp, where normal amounts of hp are 500+.

It wasn't uncommon for builds that were broken for certain circumstances to be discovered, but that's partly because there was great incentive to do so. When you get 8 times the reward for soloing as opposed to playing normally... and usually faster because those broken builds usually killed a whole lot faster (or more at a time) pretty much anyone that wanted to make money tried to find such a system. Eh, but maybe I'm just justifying doing it myself.

Basically, my point is that the combat system, loot system, and yes the amount of content is better than gw1's was when it first came out.

I think you misunderstood my post lol, I was actually saying I liked the way GW1 was, and I think GW2 is an awesome sequel. And oddly I dont remember it being that bad when I was going to UW/FW for control, usually Sissy Boys and a few others (My guild included) were owning the hall during peak time. But maybe I'm remembering it with rose glasses, it was almost 8 years ago.

I think you misunderstood my post lol, I was actually saying I liked the way GW1 was, and I think GW2 is an awesome sequel. And oddly I dont remember it being that bad when I was going to UW/FW for control, usually Sissy Boys and a few others (My guild included) were owning the hall during peak time. But maybe I'm remembering it with rose glasses, it was almost 8 years ago.

Sorry, my mistake I was basically just replying to you about the UW/FoW thing, most of it was just a general reply to people asking how gw1's release compared to gw2's. It doesn't help that I see people who played gw1 complaining in map chat about how little customization there is in gw2 compared to gw1. Once I made the mistake of jumping in and asking how they thought Prophecies compared to gw2 and got an earful "cause everyone knows Prophecies, Factions, and Nightfall are all the same game". Seriously.

Anyway, I was probably just playing more when it wasn't prime time in the US. Thinking back I might have been on 2nd shift at the time. Still think it was a horrible system though, especially for those who play at off times. I mean, imagine the uproar if you could only do fractals when your server was winning in WvW (when their total points were higher or their PPT, either way). In theory it could get people to do wvw a lot more but umm... in reality all it's going to do is get everyone mad at each other, and cause a huge fight in /team chat.

i've never played GW1, so this question isn't intended to sound sarcastic at all. was GW1 as good as it ended up being right from the start, or did it take a while to get there? i'm just curious, because i see people saying GW1 was so good at such and such, but GW2 is still bad in such and such way.

of course, you could say that if certain things were already in a game x amount of years ago, then why couldn't they also have them in this game at launch, which i would agree with. i just hope they bring back some of the awesome sounding ideas from GW1 into this game, because i want more fun content that won't lose its luster so quickly, especially on the PvE side of things.

I thought it was a masterpiece from the start. I remember the game being released, me and four friends all created warrriors and "beat the game" and that was the best adventure i've ever experienced at that time.

The skill system was amazing at release. We had a warrior who would kill and then use his necro abilities to explode the bodies for aoe. We had warriors who used bows and ranger skills, etc. It was all 100% original builds, crafted to however you wanted it.

The story in all the GW1 games make GW2 story seem so lackluster... They had memorable characters, missions, they were all straight to the point-- no "filler" bullsh*t.

No grind for gear, no grind for levels, you simply followed the amazing storyline they had set out. They also had traditional quests for lore, xp, skills, and items-- these were in fact much more enriched in lore and story than GW2's events.

GW1 was 10/10 for me. GW2.... 4/10. But I still play it, sadly. I just hope the next official expansion brings back what GW1 had, god damn, that was a beautiful game.

Free to play, microtransaction, etc... regardless.. It's an MMO. I try hard to understand but I still can't wrap my head around why people leave the game complaining that there isn't anything to do and how GW2 end game is a disappointment. What did they expect?

If this was any other monthly fee MMO people would just be in the illusion that there is an end game while they grind for max level and incrementally small upgrades. Not saying that GW2 is free of that, in fact grinding for legendaries is ridiculously long. The grind exists in GW2 like any other MMO just that they made a lot of things easily accessible unlike other MMOs and also smartly hides a lot of things. People are leaving the game for the most obcure reasons as if they have to forcefully find negative critiques.

Anyone have comments or ideas to help me understand this existential dilemma!

People leave the game, because they are no longer having fun with the game. That's really what it all boils down to, regardless of all the different reasoning they come up with.

There were no monthly fees in GW1 yet end game was so much better than in GW2. I never got tired of doing UW and FoW. It was my way of having fun even though it was repetitive.

I'm still hoping for instanced 5-8 party zones like UW and FoW to make it into the game. with the way dynamic events are structured in gw2 compared to gw1s quest system it could work out to be a great addition

having events that offer rewards as well as chests like the current dungeon bosses and the quests in fow/us did while also having an overarching optional event to complete all vents at once for an additional reward and better chest. All the events could be done in any order etc just like fow/uw.

By adding a chance to get weapon skins from those chests as well as cores/lodestones would solve another issue with the game.

Dungeons are fine atm, massive events in zones are generally fine, fractals is a nice addition regardless of its flaws but the game really is missing the god realm type feel.

Free to play, microtransaction, etc... regardless.. It's an MMO. I try hard to understand but I still can't wrap my head around why people leave the game complaining that there isn't anything to do and how GW2 end game is a disappointment. What did they expect?

If this was any other monthly fee MMO people would just be in the illusion that there is an end game while they grind for max level and incrementally small upgrades. Not saying that GW2 is free of that, in fact grinding for legendaries is ridiculously long. The grind exists in GW2 like any other MMO just that they made a lot of things easily accessible unlike other MMOs and also smartly hides a lot of things. People are leaving the game for the most obcure reasons as if they have to forcefully find negative critiques.

Anyone have comments or ideas to help me understand this existential dilemma!

I believe some people will just take a dump on any game that comes out after they get bored of it.Thing is, no game is unlimited. Eventually, you will get bored of it. Even life can be boring once you've done everything.

There is objectively plenty to do at 80, whether people find it fun or not it's their problem.Some people just prefer to spam an easy rotation for months in the same dungeon of wow to get +1 stats.Others like RvR and all that comes with it. Others like instanced pvp.Others again like rare skin farming.The important fact of it all is that GW2 doesn't require a person to do any grind.I got max gear on all my chars by doing completely different things, never had to repeat anything - and this is very good.

Yeah, some people force themselves to repeat content and then say it's a grind: of course bro, YOU are making it grindy.The game rewards varied gameplay (dailies, first-time dungeon paths, etc), and doesn't reward repetition (diminishing returns).And for the umpteenth time, legendaries are not a grind.They are meant to be things you get after months of playing the game, you're not meant to grind for them.

In short, there is some people who just try to play GW2 the way they played traditional MMOs and they come out unsatisfied.Duh, this game was made for people who hated traditional MMO, for sure you aren't meant to enjoy it the traditional way.

There are things to be improved and they will come in the next 3 months.And to think all of this came for just 50 bucks it's saying a lot. Only Skyrim gave me this longevity with that price (but this is with mods, vanilla would've lasted less) and of course GW1.

I seriously hope some other AAA traditional MMO grindfest launches so we get rid of these grind-enslaved carrot-chasing people pestering us with requests of wow cloning.

There is no grind in GW2. The developers made sure of that with the ridiculous amount of DR. At the same time you have to spend ridiculous amounts of money to attain anything in this game. It's just frustrating for people who are willing to put a lot of time into building their legendaries / armor sets etc when they see John "The Wallet" Doe walk up next to them with an identical armor set that he bought using money from the cash shop.

Gw1 took a loooooooooooong time to get all the stuff people say is 'awesome endgame'.

GW2 is insanely better as a launch title. As in, stupidly better.

While this is true, it could be argued that GW2 lacks the fundamentals for being good. A lot of the core game has changed since GW1, and while I hope Arena Net will succeed in making GW2 good, I am not sure they can, because of the poor design decisions they made during development.

And for the umpteenth time, legendaries are not a grind.They are meant to be things you get after months of playing the game, you're not meant to grind for them.

I agree with what you say except this part right here. 100 lodestones from enemies in very localized spots, with horrible drop rates... that's grind man. Sure you can buy them, but that's still hundreds of gold, and the only way I've heard to get that wealth without grinding is by playing the trading post (which is not something everyone is good at or wants to do). Oh, and that's even if there's 100 of them in the trading post in the first place. I could go on if you really want to argue this point, because lodestones aren't even the most difficult part of making a legendary.

But yes, I agree with the rest of your post, even though I think you're a bit optimistic when you say things will be improved in the next 3 months, it sounds like anet thinks the changes will be a great improvement so hopefully it will be. They have admitted that legendary crafting isn't exactly how they want it to be, so as usual I'm thinking they know what's good and what isn't in their game. I do have respect for them, even if I don't agree with everything they do.

The thing about people whining,why people are leaving the game blah, blah, blah and so on and so forth is that GW2 is just a game with no monthly sub fee and you treat it like every other game out there you buy. If you play this game for 5 hours a day without taking a day off doing the same PVE stuff over and over again then chances are you will get bored. Do you play Skyrim? How much did you spend for it? How long had you been playing it until finally you got bored of it? Like any other games out there, sooner or later you will get bored of it if you play it hardcore.

There were no monthly fees in GW1 yet end game was so much better than in GW2. I never got tired of doing UW and FoW. It was my way of having fun even though it was repetitive.

Have you tried running dungeons taking different paths? Have you tried running the Fractal of the Mist dungeons? Given the variety of dungeons in GW2 I say they are more fun than the simple mechanics of GW1's by a light year away.

P.S.I had been playing GW1 for 6 years doing everything the game has to offer but GW2 has given me so much joy in playing it more than any game I have played

Yes, I've done them all, and my total play time is only around 300 hours, which isn't all that much.
I could try grinding for legendary, but, not worth it, I personally find them all ugly, same as T3 armor for my main human. (Currently have around 130+ G and almost all maxed crafting levels)

You see, what I enjoyed the most about GW1's elite content wasn't the reward, it was the team play, my role - cleaning wastes in less than 10 minutes, chamber, vale, mountains, everyone in my team was relying on me to not to fail and be fast.

In GW2? Nothing. Fail as much as you want to, there's no punishment expect for repair costs. There are no real tactics, no real skill required, a player who has never played a dungeon before can simply join and be as good as the player next to him who has been playing this dungeon for the past month.

Yes, I'm not a hardcore player who spends 12 hours a day playing a game, but I prefer challenge over laughable and easy content.

I have 100% map, and I've no intentions to play another alt and grind the same zones for lvl 80 again.

^ Have you tried high tiers of FotM? The leveling up may be tedious, but once you are there, it sounds like you are the type to be happy there. If you were happy running content over and over again due to difficulty is what I mean.

When you are at a higher enough tier of FotM where the agony mechanic can one shot you(even after maxing AR) then you might be feeling the clutch plays

What's high level? I'm on the level 17 and I find Fractals just , ... meh, half of the time I can't even find a team, or if I do, I can't play because of the different worlds/servers.
As weird as it may sound, fractals are too repetitive, even though UW and FoW were too, at least they were fun, for me personally.

Back in days, you could find a UWSC team in less than 5 minutes. Just log in, pick a team, and play. (Before Stones and all nerfs)

30+ is when it becomes quite reasonable, and 40+ is when agony gets really painful. I definitely feel that getting a fotm group is tedious, but lo! Arenanet is hoping to alleviate this problem with their proposed changes to FotM grouping coming this January

Strange, I mean maybe its just me (and yeah not that smart so bare with me lol) but arent these sorts of things just obvious?

When you look at grind games - it was essential, we did it because to win, you needed those stats! and to win, for mankind - one of the most addictive elements to life. Its almost a program of sorts.

The cosmetic replacement - is great. Unless you only like one skin or concept. Then where is your longevity beyond having obtained what you wanted other than boredom? Its not a requirement to get them and thats an issue. Because if you happen to like the look of a lvl 35 gold you got nothing to get

Not everyone in mmo's enjoy's plethora goals. Most of us have a prefered style. I.e PvE/Craft/PvP. We aim for those. Its what I did in Aion. I wanted pvp only and indeed I dont like craft etc. So then as a individual aspect any game on launch is going to become boring (especially gw2 since its more simplistic in char design imo) because not a single one area is that deep yet... and content just doesn't keep up.

I mean look at swtor. I did a couple of instanced pvp places, 10000x over. Ofcourse I was bored

So sure games take time to develop. Yet that isnt the whole of it. Every little small thing, from needing to buy your HP pots as we did in the old days, to doing things to EARN the right to pvp created a REASON to need to play.

Without those yes its its easier effort wise. Yet some equate Achievement with hardship and difficulty (from taking time to achieve them) take those away, and you have less value in what you have. Not saying its perfect, or 100% right, just that some people see it my way. Many of my friends in fact.

Gw2 isnt bad. There just isnt anything to do (when!) you utilize your free choice and enjoy the aspect you wanted to exclusively.

People wanted this genre to be non restrictive not really realizing that over the years the simplicity. the dumbing down would come to bore them.

In times past we had stat builds, gear upgrades, grind many things. You had to make a character competitive, it annoyed some. It was a lot of work mostly based around time taken. People didn't see it as skill but what worth anything, isn't an investment of time?

Imagine how annoying it would be if every single person alive could replace you as an individual in seconds. Why train for a job?

I hate simplistic things. That is who I am. That is why I am bored.

Tell me this isnt a game for me then sure. Yet I miss the days where skill was measured just as much in how much you knew and achieved rather than how quick your reflexes were and how much you could zerg with homogenized classes. In short there was alot more depth.

i've never played GW1, so this question isn't intended to sound sarcastic at all. was GW1 as good as it ended up being right from the start, or did it take a while to get there? i'm just curious, because i see people saying GW1 was so good at such and such, but GW2 is still bad in such and such way.

of course, you could say that if certain things were already in a game x amount of years ago, then why couldn't they also have them in this game at launch, which i would agree with. i just hope they bring back some of the awesome sounding ideas from GW1 into this game, because i want more fun content that won't lose its luster so quickly, especially on the PvE side of things.

GW1 wasn't even close to GW2 at start, but alot of people compare GW1 after 3 expansions with GW2 vanilla.While alot of the stuff people like from GW1 actually came with or after the first expansion.

GW2 is sequel to GW1. They were making this game for 5 years, they should have known what their fans enjoyed the most in GW1, but they ignored that, they wanted to be more of a WoW type game with some "Inovations".
But then again, it's just my opinion. Perhaps most of the people do not enjoy complex games anymore, they just want to jump in and kill stuff.

Yes, I've done them all, and my total play time is only around 300 hours, which isn't all that much.I could try grinding for legendary, but, not worth it, I personally find them all ugly, same as T3 armor for my main human. (Currently have around 130+ G and almost all maxed crafting levels)

You see, what I enjoyed the most about GW1's elite content wasn't the reward, it was the team play, my role - cleaning wastes in less than 10 minutes, chamber, vale, mountains, everyone in my team was relying on me to not to fail and be fast.

In GW2? Nothing. Fail as much as you want to, there's no punishment expect for repair costs. There are no real tactics, no real skill required, a player who has never played a dungeon before can simply join and be as good as the player next to him who has been playing this dungeon for the past month.

Yes, I'm not a hardcore player who spends 12 hours a day playing a game, but I prefer challenge over laughable and easy content.

I have 100% map, and I've no intentions to play another alt and grind the same zones for lvl 80 again.

I share your feel of missing teamplay, my best memories are doing all terra jobs in FoW within 30 minutes, but being objective you have to admit GW2 has already passed GW1 qua difficulty..

On the other hand, everything you say was only added in GW1 after a few expansions.Hell cleaning FoW & UW like you and me love, were only added after EotN..

GW2 is sequel to GW1. They were making this game for 5 years, they should have known what their fans enjoyed the most in GW1, but they ignored that, they wanted to be more of a WoW type game with some "Inovations".But then again, it's just my opinion. Perhaps most of the people do not enjoy complex games anymore, they just want to jump in and kill stuff.

Except GW1 isn't "complex", it's just nostalgia you have. I did hundreds of FoW/UW runs, solo and speedclear, and yet I admit there was nothing hard or difficult about it..