Hi there, I'm Garry. I've just joined the forum and I look forward to posting regularly.

I have a few things to mention so I'll start off with what I have; 10 fish in a 57 litre tank. That's bad I know: my girlfriend came home with four new fish without asking However I will be giving some to my mother to keep at her house so that will even it out a bit. The first fish I got were two commons (I think), Blob and Chubb. and I've had them for just over a year. Now we have more fish, two Black Moors (Leeroy and Monty), two Orandas -- I think (Misty and Diego). We also have Goggs (Telescope Eye), and then two very small fish and a sucker fish that my girlfriend brought home. Actually, she brought three small fish -- one was eaten, which comes as no suprise.

The pet stores in the town I live in don't really know anything about fish which is kind of annoying because I wanted to know which fish were compatible, etc.

I have a few questions to ask if that's alright:- Is it a bad idea turning the filter off at night? My girlfriend is very hydro conscious and likes to turn everything off that doesn't NEED to be on. The light goes off for 10 hours each night, and the pump is turned off, but we argue about keeping the filter on, haha.- My black moors have little white spots near its gills, any idea what this could be? I've read that it might be related to breeding but I'm not sure. I don't know about the genders. It's hard to tell by the anal fins on my fish.

Hope I didn't sound too silly.I will post back with some pictures too.

As fantailer has already said keep the filter on over night.The filter needs to be on all the time, so it can keep the tank clean

Not sure about the spots as I don't know very much about black moors.As for compatibility, I see Goldfish species in two separate areas - fast moving/slow moving.As fast moving fish can eat the food before the slow moving ones get to it and faster moving ones like a lot of space and grow larger, it's generally easier to keep them separate.

Commons/Shubunkins/Comets are all fast moving.Orandas/Moors/Telescope are of the fancier varieties of goldfish and I believe are slower moving (not 100% on that so if someone else could possibly confirm my beliefs here?).

A 57 litre tank is only big enough for 1 common goldfish, so yes as fantailer said, it is extremely over crowded in there! How many will you be giving to your mother? You may want to get a bigger tank for the remaining goldfish, depending on how many you'll keep there.

Just make sure the fish have a big enough tank at yours and your mothers, so they can live long and happy fishy lives

Only big enough for one? Oof. I better sort something out then! The thing is, my girlfriend doesn't care much for the fish ("they look fine, just leave them be.") and my mum likes to think she knows better than forums and books, just because she had fish for some time. I also live in a flat and finding room for a bigger tank will be hard. Hmm, predicament. I might even have to give away a few.

As fantailer said 40 litres per fish, so a 57 litre, wouldn't be big enough for two fully grown common goldfish. Given that they can grow pretty big, up to 12 inches in some case!

How big are your goldfish, if you've had them for over a year?? If space in a flat is a bit short (which I can understand) you could always get a bigger tank and sell the 57 litre if you wanted.

But as you have lots of fish, I'm not sure what would be best to do. The 2 commons would need a tank size of 80 litres minimum.The 5 fancy varieties you have there would need a 200 litre tank minimum. Generally with goldfish, the bigger the better really! They like lots of space to swim around

As for the smaller fish? I'm not even sure on those. Also when you say sucker fish, are you meaning it's an algae eater? Like a cat fish?

You could always take some of the fish back to pet store, if your unable to look after all of them.

I'm sure the others here, who are more experienced can help out a bit more ^_^

A 57 liter isn't even enough for a moor Let alone a common goldfish. How do you imagine a 12 inch long goldfish try moving around in there?

Now, to the lynching!! (Lol, not really)The filter is something that NEEDS to be on at all times, so your girlfriend will have to live with that and calm down about it (Luckily for me, my guy loves the buzzing sound of all the filters and air pumps I've got goin 1,5 meter from the bed ).Your mom should realize that people on forums AND BOOKS have also kept fish, usually for a while longer than she did I've had them since I was like 9 years old, in short, I've kept fish for 10 years already, non stop Currently I'm taking care of the fish at my parents' house, community tank with goldfish, mollies and catfish, my own 317 liter tank with 8 goldies and a pleco + two smaller tanks with platies and a betta. So I can safely say that we on the forum know our stuff, and your mom should be more respectful (I've had enough of other people's parents deciding that they "know better" xD)

About your fish, I hope your mom will take the two commons and that she has a 200 liter tank for them to swim around in. Unless she'll take the fancies, which means that she'd need the same size of tank to support them. Either way, for these fish to be happy, that's what you need. Unless you bring the two commons and your girlfriend's fish back to the shop and keep the fancies, it's basically your choice, but it'd be more "profitable" keeping the fancies since you could keep more of them in the same tank in the end. It'll cost you some money, but believe me, goldfish are worth all the trouble in the world and more! Everyone here can guarantee that

But the point is: You can't keep anything but small tropicals in that tiny tank, and it would be so sad to give away that lovely collection of fancies you have there I hope you'll sort something out... where do you live? States, UK..??

Bristol aquarium recommends 140 litres as the minumum for fully-grown fancy fish...I would say anything below 90 litres, and a metre length (for swim room) for a pair of fancies, and they ain't going to thrive

I keep 2 fancies(ryukin) of 9 months of age in my 90 litre with a big fan filter and external pump. It won't be long before they go up to a 180

Welcome to the forum! Here you will meet many educated goldfish experts that have aquired their knowledge from experience and extensive research.

Are the white spots on your black moors ON the gills or just NEAR them?

If they are on them that means that your fish have breeding tubercles and that means they are males. If they are just near them on the body it could be ich.

Your tank is severely overcrowded; I won't lecture you about that as others have already addressed it. Unless you do something pretty quick you may run into complex problems, which I'm sure you don't want. If you decide to get a larger tank for them just remember: 20 gallons for the first goldfish, and another 10 gallons for each additional one.

scrivens: I agree! When it comes to goldfish, the best saying in the world is "the bigger the better" when it comes to tanks. I have a 317 liter myself, for many, many reasons and I plan to get a 150-200 liter for a couple of moors and other telescopes in the future

The white spots do sound like breeding tuburcules. Don't worry if his gills feel a bit bumpy.If you do need to get rid of fish to make room, I would suggest donating them to schools, doctor or dentist's offices, or botanical gardens with fishponds. DO NOT flush your fish! This is like torture to them. You can also try to return them to the pet shop. I do hope you are able to keep your fish, though.I would also suggest getting an airstone and an ammonia test kit (all fairly inexpensive) to keep an eye on things. Look for red streaks on the fins or body, or the fish behaving oddly. Overcrowded tanks are prone to high (and toxic!) ammonia levels.

The white spots do sound like breeding tuburcules. Don't worry if his gills feel a bit bumpy.If you do need to get rid of fish to make room, I would suggest donating them to schools, doctor or dentist's offices, or botanical gardens with fishponds. DO NOT flush your fish! This is like torture to them. You can also try to return them to the pet shop. I do hope you are able to keep your fish, though.I would also suggest getting an airstone and an ammonia test kit (all fairly inexpensive) to keep an eye on things. Look for red streaks on the fins or body, or the fish behaving oddly. Overcrowded tanks are prone to high (and toxic!) ammonia levels.

This sounds like the right plan for the time being, keeping an eye on the ammonia and adding lots of air. This will give you a better idea of how healthy the tank is, and how fast you need to move. Goldfish have no stomach, and as result of this and other factors, they give off much more poisonous ammonia than other kinds of fish. Your overcrowded tank needs as much filtering as you can get.

The figures you see for goldfish space requirements, and they are quite large, are for full grown fish. However keeping them in too crowded a tank, also stunts their growth. Crowded goldfish, grow slower.

Commons, shubunkins and comets are more active fish and really should be in a lot of water, a pond. Consider making your commons very happy fish and moving them outside. Then get the biggest tank, or tanks you can and move the rest of the fish in there.

On a side note, I've been watching goldfish in crowded ponds and tanks and is not natural. Goldfish naturally shoal together, moving as a group. In the overcrowded fish ghettos, they don't seem to have or form social relationships. It seems that every fish is moving independently, not moving with a group of others.

On yet another note, I got a new fish for my pond, a shubunkin with a huge comet like tail. It's shoaling with the others, but I find that it often swims very close to the other shubunkin. Has anyone else noticed similar types of goldfish forming closer bonds?

The figures you see for goldfish space requirements, and they are quite large, are for full grown fish. However keeping them in too crowded a tank, also stunts their growth. Crowded goldfish, grow slower.

This is wrong. Not only would it be a waste of money and time to keep baby goldfish in a small tank first and later upgrading as it grows, but it would also be a risk to the goldfishes' health. One couldn't possibly know how fast each individual goldfish would grow, so they would most likely get stunted in the smaller tank. Not to mention that it would take time and stress the fish having to cycle two tanks. So doing that on purpose would be very, very impractical :/ (Even if a breeder/experienced keeper could do that, they wouldn't ever because of the risks and work involved). It's so easy for people to misunderstand too. If you say "20 gallons is for fully grown fish" someone who doesn't understand why they need the space might think "Oh, but then my fish will be fine in here until they're fully grown!" which they never will be in a small tank. It's true of course that smaller goldfish automatically need less space, but it shouldn't be done for many, many reasons. Just wanted to clear that up

Is there a way that your new shubunkin is a Bristol shubunkin? They have a lot bigger tails than the "normal" ones, the lobes are rounded and almost shaped like a "B" When I had my older calico alive, the new one tended to swim around with him when she was introduced to the other fish... I haven't really looked into that whether goldfish grow more attached to ones similar to themselves in color and shape.

The figures you see for goldfish space requirements, and they are quite large, are for full grown fish. However keeping them in too crowded a tank, also stunts their growth. Crowded goldfish, grow slower.

This is wrong. Not only would it be a waste of money and time to keep baby goldfish in a small tank first and later upgrading as it grows, but it would also be a risk to the goldfishes' health. One couldn't possibly know how fast each individual goldfish would grow, so they would most likely get stunted in the smaller tank. Not to mention that it would take time and stress the fish having to cycle two tanks. So doing that on purpose would be very, very impractical :/ (Even if a breeder/experienced keeper could do that, they wouldn't ever because of the risks and work involved). It's so easy for people to misunderstand too. If you say "20 gallons is for fully grown fish" someone who doesn't understand why they need the space might think "Oh, but then my fish will be fine in here until they're fully grown!" which they never will be in a small tank. It's true of course that smaller goldfish automatically need less space, but it shouldn't be done for many, many reasons. Just wanted to clear that up

Is there a way that your new shubunkin is a Bristol shubunkin? They have a lot bigger tails than the "normal" ones, the lobes are rounded and almost shaped like a "B" When I had my older calico alive, the new one tended to swim around with him when she was introduced to the other fish... I haven't really looked into that whether goldfish grow more attached to ones similar to themselves in color and shape.

The immediate matter at hand is the huge number of fish in a small tank. I see the pressing issue as being an ammonia problem, but perhaps not so much now since the fish are small. And that was my point.

I think you are right that fish should be allowed to grow into their tank, but this is often not the case. As you know, I think they should have a lot of room and they respond well to it. My little fishes who lived in a crowded pond are now growing rapidly. They adapt quickly, how much they are stunted remains to be seen. In fact their ancestors were originally domesticated because of their adaptability and ability to be farmed.

I'm a little odd in that I'm concerned more about the social lives of fish than what they look like. But that also leads to your point of having a lot of space.

I think you are right about this not being a London Shubunkin. I had thought it was just a weird cross, but now I think it may be an American (actually Japanese) Shubunkin:

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The Japanese or American Shubunkin has deeply forked caudal fins that end in long narrow lobes.

I think you are right that it must be the different lighting. Oddly, when he was floating in his bag in the tank, he looked lighter, but that may have been because he was nearly out of the water.

He's shyer around me than the other fish, and he often hangs out under the lily pads when the other fish come over to look. I suspect he'll come around.

More karma to you...

Nice goldfish book here:(Link is not visible to guests. Please register to view.)

Jeff: I'd love that book!! But I haven't been able to find it in any bookstores available to me, not to mention that it's a little pricey by the looks of it...

But I think it's just good that you care more for their social well-being than their looks, I think the looks is sort of a nice bonus when it comes to goldfish But I of course choose the charming and more rare goldfish nowadays.. (Calico oranda next!!)