MoP raid releases will be staggered

I'm pretty keen to see what the world first guilds have to say about this. I don't think they'll have a problem with it either after the insanity that was T11. Postponing raid content for 7 days isn't going to kill anyone.

On the first page I linked and interview with Xav of Premo (does premo count as a world first guild anymore?) from before DS. In it he was supportive of the concept of gating but that was before almost a year of DS.

Guild A spends 100 hours clearing out Heroic DragonSoul start to finish. They start as soon as Heroic DragonSoul is released, and they raid 8 hours a day for 12 days straight, and halfway through their 13th day they down Heroic Madness. They have very little knowledge of any of these fights, except what is known from the Dungeon Journal and how the normal mode mechanics work. They did most of the fights in a mix of 391s from heroic FLs and some 384 LFR gear, while obtaining a few upgrades from Normal and Heroic mode kills.

Guild B raids 4 hours a week (2 hours a night, 2 nights a week). They raid for 5 months (16 hours a month, for a total of 80 hours). They watch countless videos of top world guilds killing bosses and read tons of forum posts and guides on advice on how to kill a boss. During their 1st week of their 5th month, the nerf is now 15% and they are pretty much full 410 gear from the bosses they have killed, and they finally manage to kill Heroic Madness, let's say in their 80th hour of raiding.

Guild B took much less time doing Heroic DS (20% less time), therefore they are clearly 20% better than Guild A.

Am I doing it right?

You pretty much nailed it. Even if guild B killed it without a zone nerf they still had taken more resets and therefor had more gear which act as a "soft nerf" to the instance anyways.

The whole "we took less time and are therefor more skilled" argument falls apart if you don't do it in the same reset as the guild's you are comparing yourself to or otherwise nuetralize the extra gear somehow.

I find it funny that people try to argue about skill level in dealing with scripted encounters.

I find it funny that people try to argue about skill level in dealing with scripted encounters.

As you noted accurately on page 1 of this thread.

The "skill" in raiding is pretty much just how much repition it takes for everyone on your roster to master an encounter. Really that's it. Raiding is pretty much nothing but time investment.

Clearly raw speed in clearing and time spent in instance both have some relation to skill or whatever you want to call it. We can all agree that a guild killing a boss a month ahead of another is probably more skilled regardless of time spent. However we can also agree that killing a boss within a lockout or two* of another guild while spending substantially less time is also probably more skilled.

Where that bright line, at what point we judge the two guilds to be of equal skill, is an open question but a mostly academic one since as you noted correctly there are a whole lot of factors that are difficult to measure and assign weights to. Regardless of where that brightline is however there are clearly limitations with our current system of measuring guild skill. With shorter units of progression more often we can get a better sense of guild skill with our imperfect metrics.

*I'm saying within a couple lockouts because gear drops are not equal guild to guild, especially with 10 man raiding.

We now have content more spread out for the first tier instead of being bludgeoned by it.

No one is "bludgeoned" by content. There are people that like having tons of options in front of them to work on, who enjoy going through the climb, and they are slowed down for no good reason by this form of gating. Lots of guilds front load their schedule so they can get everything to farm quickly and enjoy a more casual pace until the next content patch, work on alts, focus on the pvp season, or whatever.

There are people who like to take their time going through content. They don't benefit from this form of gating since they'd work on it at their own pace anyways. It won't substantively change their rate of progression directly. It will however slow down more ambitous guilds and make the gap in progression (number of boss kills) smaller through purely artifical means.

No one is getting more content, new content faster, or anything from this.

I'd rather it go the way of limited attempts or tier nine's gating and be forgotten quickly. I'd far rather have twleve-fifteen bosses in a non-linear instance or a spread accross a few instances that myself and my guildees can work on when we chose at the pace we chose.

No one is "bludgeoned" by content. There are people that like having tons of options in front of them to work on, who enjoy going through the climb, and they are slowed down for no good reason by this form of gating. Lots of guilds front load their schedule so they can get everything to farm quickly and enjoy a more casual pace until the next content patch, work on alts, focus on the pvp season, or whatever.

There are people who like to take their time going through content. They don't benefit from this form of gating since they'd work on it at their own pace anyways. It won't substantively change their rate of progression directly. It will however slow down more ambitous guilds and make the gap in progression (number of boss kills) smaller through purely artifical means.

You forgot the ones who do both. Who rush, but would rather read quests the first time through, and *then* rush. ie, the ones being bludgeoned.

You forgot the ones who do both. Who rush, but would rather read quests the first time through, and *then* rush. ie, the ones being bludgeoned.

I'd assume you mean bludgeoned by their guild's leveling expectations? I don't think that's something you solve via gating content. That's something that has nothing to do with the game's design but is a player/social issue and then we're tapering off into a seperate thread about a guild or raid group's leadership reconciling its' expectations to that of their raiding core.

ps:yuki you look better as an orc. i never recognize you now :<

Thanks. This is a temporary thing and I'll be home on Illidan soon enough. =)

I'd assume you mean bludgeoned by their guild's leveling expectations?

No... by the games leveling expectations. It's clear this game takes hold of people and causes them to play more and want more (hence you throwing a hissy fit because you have to wait a whole week to raid). Everyone wants the best and the greatest in this game the second it becomes available... even if it isn't healthy for them to get it.

The game sets no expectations on me. I set them on myself and to a lesser extent they are set by my circle of ingame friends.

(hence you throwing a hissy fit because you have to wait a whole week to raid).

I think the decision to not open any raids until one week has past is kind of meh. I don't like it but it isn't that big of a deal. What I strongly dislike is the gating of additional raid content in the same tier with no clear cut timetable. There is no reason for it at all. It benefits no one in any way.

Everyone wants the best and the greatest in this game the second it becomes available

I'm not competing for world firsts, regional firsts, or would even describe myself as anything more than an average player. But I do feel I should be able to tackle content when I chose and on the timetable I chose without a false gate whos' only apparent function is to prevent more ambitous guilds from getting "too far" ahead of one's chosing a more lesiurely pace. The function of this gate is to simply slow down players so others can artificially keep up.

... even if it isn't healthy for them to get it.

I don't feel my playstyle is particularly unhealthy. I have a solid work/life balance and am actively involved in my daughter's school and after school activities. But even if it was that would be the concern of me and my family and not that of game developers who shouldn't inject themselves into it.

There are more reasons for holding it back than not. It benefits more than it hurts. The reason's are countless for it, but against it are simply "they should let me do what I want". The problem is... what you want isn't what you want. You want content now and constantly and they aren't willing to provide that. So instead they are giving you content soon and more regularly as a test.

TLDR; you don't really know what you want, you act on impulse and simply think you do. You argue that it doesn't help people, but people say it does. You argue that people don't want this but they do. I promise you that the group of people who can raid the first week of the expansion is a tiny fraction of WoW's populace... you are in the minority.

We’ve been keeping a very close eye on the feedback players have shared for both Cataclysm and Mists of Pandaria raiding. We saw a lot of evidence and heard a lot of feedback which indicated that raid content was a little overwhelming at the beginning of Cataclysm. Our goal is to smooth that out a bit in Mists of Pandaria. Keep in mind, Mogu’shan Vaults opens up one week after Mists of Pandaria launches. And with its Heroic mode even the most seasoned raiders should be pretty busy. Once the raid dungeon has been cleared by a group on normal mode they’ll unlock Heroic mode, a definite ramp up in challenge. Also note, similar to Dragon Soul, Raid Finder mode for Mogu’shan Vaults will be available about one week after the normal raid has been opened.

Rather than putting a lot of pressure on players by opening up sixteen raid bosses in three separate difficulties upon release of the expansion, we hope you’ll have a chance to really dig into the lore, the gorgeous new continent, the amazing new quests, and all of the other goodies that are far too numerable to mention. Our intention here is not to artificially extend the life of the 5.0 content, but rather to pace it better than we have in previous releases. This is why we noted that a few weeks after Mogu’shan Vaults opens, raid instances Heart of Fear and Terrace of Endless Spring will become available. These dungeons will still very much be hot on the heels of Mogu’shan Vaults, particularly for the large majority of players progressing through Pandaria.

Here’s a basic breakdown of the pattern we’d like to follow for all upcoming raids: Dungeon opens on normal difficulty --> Heroic mode is unlocked once normal mode is completed --> the Raid Finder version becomes available about one week after the raid’s initial opening. To review all of the latest Mists raid release details, everyone is encouraged to check out our latest blog, Blizzard Insider #45 – Mists of Pandaria – Raid Preview, which has a wealth of exciting new information.

On a final note, thank you to everyone who has been testing the new content, sharing your feedback, and helping us bring you the most epic game possible! It cannot be said enough, but we genuinely appreciate it. =)

There are more reasons for holding it back than not. It benefits more than it hurts. The reason's are countless for it, but against it are simply "they should let me do what I want". The problem is... what you want isn't what you want. You want content now and constantly and they aren't willing to provide that. So instead they are giving you content soon and more regularly as a test.

TLDR; you don't really know what you want, you act on impulse and simply think you do. You argue that it doesn't help people, but people say it does. You argue that people don't want this but they do. I promise you that the group of people who can raid the first week of the expansion is a tiny fraction of WoW's populace... you are in the minority.

So what are your reasons for it benefiting to hold it back? I didn't see any named. I think the advantage of delaying it 1 week, and not more than that, is I can't imagine for the top raiding guilds gearing up so fast to clear 16 normal mode bosses in 1 week is fun and this gives them some breathing room.

And that's not all of them. Some of them do want to do it immediately. I mean positive or negative, I don't see how this effects anyone but the top raiding guilds. My guild won't be ready the first week. There's no way. Maybe 2nd but probably 3rd. This wouldn't effect us at all.

And while the top raiders are the minority they are an important part of the WoW community.