I dont see why people adamantly defend a tyrant. Because thats all Sylvanas is. A bloody murderer and tyrant seeking power. And when the dead walk, the living shall fill the graves. By the light, that wont happen on my sun dial.

Oh, now we know. You are a fanatic. Its always fun to reason with those.

I dont see why people adamantly defend a tyrant. Because thats all Sylvanas is. A bloody murderer and tyrant seeking power. And when the dead walk, the living shall fill the graves. By the light, that wont happen on my sun dial.

She makes a good story character. She shouldn't be killed yet because she has a lot of background and there hasn't really been a climax to her story yet. I know you're trying to role play here a bit but I don't think it's happening in the near future. You never know how blizz will bend the story either. Since she doesn't really care for the forsaken, nor Garrosh, nor orcs in general really, she may somehow end up with the alliance again when Alleria shows up. Or maybe they go with the tyrant thing and when Alleria shows up they fight and Sylvanas dies. Either way I'm betting the end of Sylvanas's story will be related to Alleria's reappearance.

Yes, she is one of the most overrated characters. If it wasn't for her being female, she owuldn't be this popular

Surprised Garrosh hasn't done this already. Blatent insubordination is a severe undermining and must be punished harshly to be an example. She's definitely overrated in all areas, and shows no good qualities of a leader even to her own. She needs to be put out of her (and our) misery.

Originally Posted by Endus

There is absolutely nothing about having lots and lots of sex that means you're going to have a kid.

Oh, now we know. You are a fanatic. Its always fun to reason with those.

And a warlock! He is a Lightlock! Hide! And I never heard anyone in the alliance having problems about being murderers and tyrants, right humans? But when the Forsaken win the war and rule Azeroth, nobody will think about her as a tyrant and murderer, then she is a hero!

Surprised Garrosh hasn't done this already. Blatent insubordination is a severe undermining and must be punished harshly to be an example. She's definitely overrated in all areas, and shows no good qualities of a leader even to her own. She needs to be put out of her (and our) misery.

garrosh doesn't kill her because he's afraid of her.
""Who are you to countermand my orders?" Garrosh demanded, nudging his war wolf forward. The enormous orc now pressed his great girth into her space, coming up alongside her and glowering at her.
Sylvanas did not move or shy away. "I was once like you, Garrosh," she answered, her voice quiet and steady, loud enough only for the warchief to hear. "Those who served me were tools. Arrows in my quiver." She reached up and slowly brought down her hood, then directed her dark gaze at him. Her eyes were alive, their oversized jet-black pupils livid with rage, red embers glowing deep within.
At that moment, nobody dared look Sylvanas Windrunner in the eye. Nobody but Garrosh Hellscream.
What he saw was a great black void, an infinite darkness. There was fear in those eyes, but also something else. Something that terrified even the great warchief. His wolf began to edge away instinctively.
"Garrosh Hellscream. I've walked the realms of the dead. I have seen the infinite dark. Nothing you say. Or do. Could possibly frighten me."
The army of undead that surrounded and protected the Dark Lady was still hers, body and soul. But they were no longer arrows in her quiver, not anymore. They were a bulwark against the infinite. They were to be used wisely, and no fool orc would squander them while she still walked the world of the living.
The warchief sheathed his axe onto his back, his mount sidling away from hers. After a long moment, he finally tore his gaze from those eyes.
"Very well, Dark Lady," he conceded loud enough for all to hear. "We will take Gilneas… your way."
He spurred his mount onward and ambled through the mud toward his own troops. But I will be watching you, he told himself.
The eyes of Hellscream are upon you more than any other."

I actually agree with that. I liked Garrosh last Xpac, because I thought he made for a good catalyst. In fact, I'm still somewhat disappointed how sharp of a turn Garrosh made. Sure he was a typical Alpha male type, but in cata he showed some qualities I liked. Now, they have made him a little over the top cartoony like Villian.

Technically Vol'jin could be consider just as much a insubordinate. I mean, Garrosh did try to kill him outright. We haven't see him take that hard of a stance with Sylvanas. I'm not 100% for sure that Sylvanas isn't already on to the fact that Garrosh is a bit out of his mind. So far, I can see why she has flippant attitude towards him.

But overall, we need the contrast I guess. You see the Alliance really coming together under Varian has he learns how to lead like a real king and you see a faction crumble under it's own chaos when the leader goes down the bat shit crazy path.

Then who would be able to claim Lordaeron? The Alliance? What claim would they ahve over Lordaeron? Cause it once belonged to the humans?

I think Varian made it clear with the Battle for the Undercity that he wants to reclaim Lordaeron, Stormwind is pretty much still in debt because of the 1st / 2nd War.

Originally Posted by Kaj392

What happens to Stromgarde Keep is uncertain. Just because Galen Trollbane is a Forsaken doesn't mean the Forsaken will actually take over/back Stromgarde from the Syndicate. Maybe Galen will go neutral with a group of Forsaken. We don't know.

"The land would make a decent spot for a new Undercity in its place. "

Originally Posted by Kaj392

They were already dead, so either they join the Forsaken freely or they just return to the graves if they please. How is it hard to see the options there? Be ressurrected and join the Forsaken, or just stay dead.

No,no.

They get ressurected into UNDEATH and then get the choice, join the Forsaken or die once again.

Originally Posted by Kaj392

Like i said, everything is 'permitted', but if it's normal to use? No. What Garrosh wants to do is inhuman, just like the plague. I doubt Garrosh only wants to remove / strenghten 'emotions'.

"With the Divine Bell, I will burn away any remnants of weakness within us. Fear... despair... hatred... doubt. The lesser races are buried beneath their weight. But WE will control their power."

In the end of the Horde version he speaks about that the weak cannot control the Sha but he WILL master it.

Originally Posted by Kaj392

Sylvanas jumped off the Frozen Throne cause Arthas was dead, yes. She didn't see any reason anymore to be alive. The Val'kyr showed her what would happen to the Forsaken if she would have actually jumped and they wouldn't have helped her. THAT was her reason to accept the offer the Val'kyr gave her.
She doesn't need the Forsaken, she went back because she actually cares after the visions. She needs the Val'kyr and vice versa. That is the pact.

"As she realized that this realm of anguish was to be her eternity, the val'kyr appeared to her again. Led by Annhylde the Caller, they offered the Dark Lady a pact: instead of allowing Sylvanas to reside eternally in this terrifying realm, Annhylde offered to take her place if she binds herself to the remaining val'kyr; a powerful vessel through which they can continue to exist as more than slaves, their fates intertwined. "

"Sylvanas realized that her people were no longer simply arrows in her quiver, but an important resource that would not be squandered."

Which great sees his own people as "resource"?

The Vision made it clear to her that she has to stop Garrosh from using the Forsaken as fodder because she can't get replcement quickly.

And now stealing this quote from checking facts:

"They were a bulwark against the infinite. They were to be used wisely, and no fool orc would squander them while she still walked the world of the living."

Given the fact that she completely dis-obeys Garrosh's command to not use the Plague on Gilneas, or the fact that she is now using scourge to raise new undead for her army, it seems she is turning "Lich Queen"esque in her quest for dominion and power.

Should we kill Sylvanas instead of Garrosh? Maybe we should just exile Garrosh instead of killing him. We should definitely kill Sylvanas and try to readmit the undead back into the Alliance (because they were once alliance humans to begin with)

Anyone else feel the same way?

Ewww, faction bias in a polling thread. Either way, you're negating two big things when you say "we should definitely .. try to readmit the undead back into the Alliance." Blood Elves and Forsaken will never be part of the alliance. One, they hate the Alliance. Two, because of Alliance bigotry and racism. Horde is always painted as "evil" by some people who only play Alliance.

I've played both, back and forth, for the last 7 years, and both sides have "good" and "evil" within them. You want to RP as a champion of good and righteousness? You don't have to play Alliance to do so. Look at characters like Vol'jin, Thrall, Baine, and Saurfang. You want to be devious and evil? Horde isn't your sole choice: Grand Marshal Garithos, Maiev Shadowsong, Captain Doren and even Jaina Proudmoore at one point was on the verge of slaughtering an entire civilization, children and innocents, included, if she wasn't talked down at the last moment by Kalecgos.

TL;DR: War is all about two factions who believe they are right and the other is evil clashing. Both sides commit horrible atrocities, feeling vindicated because "they are right." I don't believe America is evil, but dropping nuclear weapons on Japan cities was the darkest, most evil moment in our history. Stop wasting time/energy applying "Black/White" philosophy on this game. Horde lore has become a lot more "evil-filled" lately because they're led by Garrosh, who is evil. If you actually played Horde, you would know that Horde heroes have spent a lot of time aiding Baine, Lorthemar, and Voljin against the evil Garrosh is plotting. Hell, my Tauren DK saved Prince Anduin's life. Judge less, enjoy playing more. ^_^

El oh el. Talk about a passage mindlessly talking her up. The orc would tear her limb from limb in seconds in melee. Either she's stupid enough not to respect for her life, or she's completely void of reason. This is what the guy I quoted was talking about.

Originally Posted by Endus

There is absolutely nothing about having lots and lots of sex that means you're going to have a kid.

heres an idea, how about we kill varian wrynn? sniveling little whiny emo king I much preferred bolvar as the alliance leader even as a horde player at least he had some `balls` about him, not to mention the fact that varian has sent countless alliance troops in harms way and sacrificed many more simply to track down his own son, hardly thinking of the big picture there was he?

The guys a joke, completly boring and needs to be killed off fast, I vote Sylvanas! KILLS varian :P