Jyoti wrote:
Since the perception of thoughts is none other than dharmata, there is no anticipation of its ceasing (your term "dissolve"), even when such thoughts are of recognizing and recognizer, they are not difference than dharmata...........
......... allowing thinking component to function, allowed the intellect to operate unobstructedly in concordance with the reason of thusness, this is what causes the transformation of consciousnesses into wisdoms.

If perception of thought is none other than dharmata, why would there be the effect of transformation of consciousness? Here you are suggesting that dharmata acts as a cause. If dharmata acted as a cause then it couldn't be said to be 'pure'.

The Blessed One said:

"What is the All? Simply the eye & forms, ear & sounds, nose & aromas, tongue & flavors, body & tactile sensations, intellect & ideas. This, monks, is called the All. Anyone who would say, 'Repudiating this All, I will describe another,' if questioned on what exactly might be the grounds for his statement, would be unable to explain, and furthermore, would be put to grief. Why? Because it lies beyond range." Sabba Sutta.

heart wrote:
No, the word are just like a finger pointing to the moon Jyoti. In the moment of recognition of the natural state our mind, with all its thoughts, dissolve for a moment. Which means that this recognition is free from recognizing and recognizer.

/magnus

Since the perception of thoughts is none other than dharmata, there is no anticipation of its ceasing (your term "dissolve"), even when such thoughts are of recognizing and recognizer, they are not difference than dharmata. Thus you are merely seeking a state of calm in your method. In reality, there are no different with whatever arises, and allowing thinking component to function, allowed the intellect to operate unobstructedly in concordance with the reason of thusness, this is what causes the transformation of consciousnesses into wisdoms. If one impede thought or merely remain blanked, than it is no different than the meditation of no-thought, this is certainly not dzogchen but worldly meditation.

I wasn't discussing meditation and I never said you should impede thought or any of the other senses. If you recall we were talking about direct introduction.

"The direct, hard to understand, subtle field of knowing, the Great Path, is non-conceptual (akalpana), and entirely beyond the grasp of intellectual thought." Manjusrimitra

/magnus

"We are all here to help each other go through this thing, whatever it is."
~Kurt Vonnegut

"The principal practice is Guruyoga. But we need to understand that any secondary practice combined with Guruyoga becomes a principal practice." ChNNR (Teachings on Thun and Ganapuja)

I'm making mistakes and you are knowing a lot. I wonder who will make a breakthrough first? I hope it's you.

The Blessed One said:

"What is the All? Simply the eye & forms, ear & sounds, nose & aromas, tongue & flavors, body & tactile sensations, intellect & ideas. This, monks, is called the All. Anyone who would say, 'Repudiating this All, I will describe another,' if questioned on what exactly might be the grounds for his statement, would be unable to explain, and furthermore, would be put to grief. Why? Because it lies beyond range." Sabba Sutta.

RikudouSennin wrote:So whats the chance of becoming fully awakened in this lifetime after being introduced o your real nature?

If you are a diligent person, have received introduction and applied the teachings of Dzogchen to your life in a concrete way, you will never need to fear of returning to samsara's three realms ever again. Even if you do not acheive full awakening in this life you will either acheive full awakening in the bardo, or in a nirmanakāya buddhafield.

The different sūtras in accord with the emptiness
taught by the Sugata are definitive in meaning;
One can understand that all of those Dharmas in
which a sentient being, individual, or person are taught are provisional in meaning.

RikudouSennin wrote:So whats the chance of becoming fully awakened in this lifetime after being introduced o your real nature?

If you are a diligent person, have received introduction and applied the teachings of Dzogchen to your life in a concrete way, you will never need to fear of returning to samsara's three realms ever again. Even if you do not acheive full awakening in this life you will either acheive full awakening in the bardo, or in a nirmanakāya buddhafield.

well then i have found exactly what i have been looking for throughout my entire life

RikudouSennin wrote:So whats the chance of becoming fully awakened in this lifetime after being introduced o your real nature?

If you are a diligent person, have received introduction and applied the teachings of Dzogchen to your life in a concrete way, you will never need to fear of returning to samsara's three realms ever again. Even if you do not acheive full awakening in this life you will either acheive full awakening in the bardo, or in a nirmanakāya buddhafield.

well then i have found exactly what i have been looking for throughout my entire life

now only if i can manage to not die before i am introduced.

You just need to connect with Chogyal Namkhai Norbu and not look back. He is the only teacher alive today that I know of who had two masters achieve rainbow body in this life.

The different sūtras in accord with the emptiness
taught by the Sugata are definitive in meaning;
One can understand that all of those Dharmas in
which a sentient being, individual, or person are taught are provisional in meaning.

wow i did not know that, there is alot i need to learn but im glad to be alive at the time of this great master and have the chance to connect with him.

im sure there will be many hardships but im happy to have discovered what ive been looking for,i just need to hold onto this enthusiasim for the ret of my life.

also afer i attend the WWT and join the DC will i be considered a disciple of Rinpoche?
i know he has thousands of disciples,how do i go about having a personal relationship with CNNR?obviously to meet him in person is the goal but even then wont it be a huge amount of people trying to meet him at the same time.

RikudouSennin wrote: wow i did not know that, there is alot i need to learn but im glad to be alive at the time of this great master and have the chance to connect with him.

im sure there will be many hardships but im happy to have discovered what ive been looking for,i just need to hold onto this enthusiasim for the ret of my life.

also afer i attend the WWT and join the DC will i be considered a disciple of Rinpoche?
i know he has thousands of disciples,how do i go about having a personal relationship with CNNR?obviously to meet him in person is the goal but even then wont it be a huge amount of people trying to meet him at the same time.

He travels almost constantly doing retreats so if you put the effort in to be mindful of his schedule I'm sure you'd be able to attend one. As for really establishing a personal relationship though, he would want you to focus on the true guru which is your own natural state. After direct introduction his method of guru yoga is his primary practice he gives to help maintain that connection. Although he would be your teacher, it's not so much about being a disciple of him specifically as in focusing on idolizing his physical form, because that actually serves to maintain a dualistic view. Rinpoche, being the embodiment of primordial perfection would want you to focus on your own primordial perfection which is inseparable from the recognition he abides in. Being able to lay that subject-object approach aside is vital to this teaching, though relatively it's perfectly fine to consider him the teacher and you a student.

It definitely makes me happy to see you excited about the teaching that is a beautiful thing!

"What is the All? Simply the eye & forms, ear & sounds, nose & aromas, tongue & flavors, body & tactile sensations, intellect & ideas. This, monks, is called the All. Anyone who would say, 'Repudiating this All, I will describe another,' if questioned on what exactly might be the grounds for his statement, would be unable to explain, and furthermore, would be put to grief. Why? Because it lies beyond range." Sabba Sutta.

RikudouSennin wrote: wow i did not know that, there is alot i need to learn but im glad to be alive at the time of this great master and have the chance to connect with him.

im sure there will be many hardships but im happy to have discovered what ive been looking for,i just need to hold onto this enthusiasim for the ret of my life.

also afer i attend the WWT and join the DC will i be considered a disciple of Rinpoche?
i know he has thousands of disciples,how do i go about having a personal relationship with CNNR?obviously to meet him in person is the goal but even then wont it be a huge amount of people trying to meet him at the same time.

Well, for one thing he responds to emails. Secondly, people make a big deal out of close personal relationships with their teachers, but it is an over stated thing. ChNN teaches in such a way that you really won't need much personal attention. Plus there are many older students who can help you with 98 percent of your questions.and you will be able to meet him and say hello. There is more chance for personal contact with him in smaller and newer places. It is impossible really in merigar, tsegyalgar, etc.

Anyway, you won't have many questions that are worthwhile until you have applied the practices a bit.

The different sūtras in accord with the emptiness
taught by the Sugata are definitive in meaning;
One can understand that all of those Dharmas in
which a sentient being, individual, or person are taught are provisional in meaning.

The different sūtras in accord with the emptiness
taught by the Sugata are definitive in meaning;
One can understand that all of those Dharmas in
which a sentient being, individual, or person are taught are provisional in meaning.

RikudouSennin wrote: wow i did not know that, there is alot i need to learn but im glad to be alive at the time of this great master and have the chance to connect with him.

im sure there will be many hardships but im happy to have discovered what ive been looking for,i just need to hold onto this enthusiasim for the ret of my life.

also afer i attend the WWT and join the DC will i be considered a disciple of Rinpoche?
i know he has thousands of disciples,how do i go about having a personal relationship with CNNR?obviously to meet him in person is the goal but even then wont it be a huge amount of people trying to meet him at the same time.

He travels almost constantly doing retreats so if you put the effort in to be mindful of his schedule I'm sure you'd be able to attend one. As for really establishing a personal relationship though, he would want you to focus on the true guru which is your own natural state. After direct introduction his method of guru yoga is his primary practice he gives to help maintain that connection. Although he would be your teacher, it's not so much about being a disciple of him specifically as in focusing on idolizing his physical form, because that actually serves to maintain a dualistic view. Rinpoche, being the embodiment of primordial perfection would want you to focus on your own primordial perfection which is inseparable from the recognition he abides in. Being able to lay that subject-object approach aside is vital to this teaching, though relatively it's perfectly fine to consider him the teacher and you a student.

It definitely makes me happy to see you excited about the teaching that is a beautiful thing!

Agreed, can't go wrong with following the teachings of ChNN Rinpoche. He gives very practical very accessible teachings. I've noticed that when I feel out of sorts or agitated it's usually because I'm not actually remembering his advice. Then after some hours maybe I'll remember his advice, and look back thinking "Shit, well clearly my own grand ideas did me no good." Then things get easier.

Also Rinpoche has this way of answering questions as you have them-you'll see.

Perhaps someone figured out that she is not really adding anything of value to the discussion of Dzogchen.

She has a lot of problems. I hope she can work them out. Very glad Riku got what he needed.

The Blessed One said:

"What is the All? Simply the eye & forms, ear & sounds, nose & aromas, tongue & flavors, body & tactile sensations, intellect & ideas. This, monks, is called the All. Anyone who would say, 'Repudiating this All, I will describe another,' if questioned on what exactly might be the grounds for his statement, would be unable to explain, and furthermore, would be put to grief. Why? Because it lies beyond range." Sabba Sutta.

RikudouSennin wrote: wow i did not know that, there is alot i need to learn but im glad to be alive at the time of this great master and have the chance to connect with him.

im sure there will be many hardships but im happy to have discovered what ive been looking for,i just need to hold onto this enthusiasim for the ret of my life.

also afer i attend the WWT and join the DC will i be considered a disciple of Rinpoche?
i know he has thousands of disciples,how do i go about having a personal relationship with CNNR?obviously to meet him in person is the goal but even then wont it be a huge amount of people trying to meet him at the same time.

Well, for one thing he responds to emails. Secondly, people make a big deal out of close personal relationships with their teachers, but it is an over stated thing. ChNN teaches in such a way that you really won't need much personal attention. Plus there are many older students who can help you with 98 percent of your questions.and you will be able to meet him and say hello. There is more chance for personal contact with him in smaller and newer places. It is impossible really in merigar, tsegyalgar, etc.

Anyway, you won't have many questions that are worthwhile until you have applied the practices a bit.

Aha thank you Malcom for your response,
i was just kind of used to my former traditions emphasis on eternal relationship to the guru in a siddhe deha in the fantasy world of braja.
its good to know that there are students who can help so i wont just send noob emails and such

After the teachings you can meet CHNN face to face. It might be nice to tell him who you are and that you are interested in Dzogchen.

The Blessed One said:

"What is the All? Simply the eye & forms, ear & sounds, nose & aromas, tongue & flavors, body & tactile sensations, intellect & ideas. This, monks, is called the All. Anyone who would say, 'Repudiating this All, I will describe another,' if questioned on what exactly might be the grounds for his statement, would be unable to explain, and furthermore, would be put to grief. Why? Because it lies beyond range." Sabba Sutta.