After being threatened with a $49,200 fine, gamer plans on more Canadian maps.

Diego Liatis, a Montreal gamer and entrepreneur, told Ars that he still plans on releasing a Counter-Strike: Global Offensive map of Berri-UQAM, the city’s most well-known metro station. He's moving forward—the map is due sometime in March 2013—even if it means a drawn-out lawsuit brought by the local transit authority.

“If you ask me to change the name of the station—forget about it,” Diego Liatis told Ars, starting the sentence in French and switching to English for emphasis.

“I understand [copyright law]. But there are limits, such as the name of the station.”

"Indeed, there was a meeting between the lawyers of the two parties today," Amélie Régis, an STM spokesperson, told Ars in a French-language e-mail on Monday. "The STM has asked that certain elements of the video game map be taken out. Mr. Liatis' lawyer must discuss this with his client and come back to us quickly. As this is a legal negotiation, I'm not in a position, unfortunately, to tell you anything more."

A hobby project

Liatis and Dénis haven't released the map to other Global Offensive players yet, but they did release a YouTube trailer last month, followed by a second trailer on February 17. Liatis told Ars he plans on releasing the map on a private server for free sometime next month.

“The goal was to make something that speaks to Montreal or another Canadian location,” he said, lamenting the lack of Canadian locales in video games. “And to do something independent—there’s no money [involved].”

Liatis also told Ars that LAN ETS had threatened to impose a lifetime ban on him if he ended up releasing the map. LAN ETS did not immediately respond to our request for comment on this point.

Liatis added that STM's media representative, Amélie Régis, expressed concern to him that releasing the map would allow it to be used by actual terrorists training for an actual attack. Régis also said it would be "insulting" to Montreal's Arab community.

Régis did not respond to our request for comment on this specific point.

UPDATE Tuesday 5:42pm CT: Régis finally wrote back to Ars, saying that she had never spoken to Liatis, and was "really surprised to read the opposite." Ars has contacted Liatis again to clarify who exactly he spoke with at the STM.

“Logic is on my side”

Liatis said he planned on meeting in person with STM representatives later this week. While he is willing to alter the STM logo and a well-known piece of art that hangs above a track, he’s not willing to compromise on the name of the station or its layout.

The February 11 cease-and-desist letter reminds Liatis that the STM “had warned you that it did not authorize you to use its image nor reproduction of the station in question for this project,” adding that use of its name, acronyms, graphic symbols, and seal are “prohibited by law unless permission is granted by the STM.”

The STM sent Liatis a second letter, dated February 21, noting that "copyright on architectural works is well-established in jurisprudence as well as in [case law]” and invited Liatis’ counsel to meet with them last Friday. Liatis provided Ars with copies of both letters.

No matter the outcome, Liatis remains determined. He plans to make similar maps of other Canadian locations for Left for Dead and Counter-Strike.

“Logic is on my side,” Liatis added.

UPDATE 8:05pm CT: Simon Marin, a LAN ETS spokesperson, told Ars in an e-mail that the university, and by extension its LAN party event (LAN ETS), is "disassociating itself" from Liatis and his map. Marin did not provide any further explanation.

Promoted Comments

Logic is on his side? Awww how naïve. Of course logic is on his side! But that doesn't matter. Bureaucrats aren't logical, and law isn't always logical. Who knows how this will shake out in court.

I support their decision to fight this 100%. But I don't think they know what they are getting into. Ignorant people will attempt to project their power, and they will fight this all the way. At some point it becomes a matter of pride and ego. Meanwhile the nerds just want to see logic prevail. That's not how the world works!

79 Reader Comments

Logic is on his side? Awww how naïve. Of course logic is on his side! But that doesn't matter. Bureaucrats aren't logical, and law isn't always logical. Who knows how this will shake out in court.

I support their decision to fight this 100%. But I don't think they know what they are getting into. Ignorant people will attempt to project their power, and they will fight this all the way. At some point it becomes a matter of pride and ego. Meanwhile the nerds just want to see logic prevail. That's not how the world works!

Amélie Régis, expressed concern to him that releasing the map would allow it to be used by actual terrorists training for an actual attack. Régis also said it would be "insulting" to Montreal's Arab community.

Did she just insult Montreal's Arab community by implying these hypothetical terrorists would be Arab?

I'm not familiar with Canadian copyright law or its fair dealing provisions, but stuff like this is exactly why fair use exists in the U.S. There's a decent argument that architectural works are copyrightable -- but it's not like they're copying the station design to build their own competing metro station. It's for a video game map, a fundamentally transformative use.

At any rate, it's fairly obvious that the authorities are less interested in copyright and more interested in finding whatever legal tool they can to suppress "dangerous" speech.

Amélie Régis, expressed concern to him that releasing the map would allow it to be used by actual terrorists training for an actual attack. Régis also said it would be "insulting" to Montreal's Arab community.

Did she just insult Montreal's Arab community by implying these hypothetical terrorists would be Arab?

Sounds like it, and why not just sue Google over offering layouts and images of the station as well. These services are clearly being used by terrorists! /s

Amélie Régis, expressed concern to him that releasing the map would allow it to be used by actual terrorists training for an actual attack. Régis also said it would be "insulting" to Montreal's Arab community.

Did she just insult Montreal's Arab community by implying these hypothetical terrorists would be Arab?

Yes. You know what also can train for a terrorist attack? Simply walking around the damn station. It's a public place. Admission is $3.00, or $2.00 if you have a student OPUS card/are under 17. Not to mention Berri-UQAM is the meeting point for three of the four metro routes in Montreal.

Oh shit, all that public data I just posted HELPS THE TERRORISTS. RUN!

Maps like this are just fuel for the anti-videogame fire. I want to support him because I think it's ok for him to model a public space, but I don't think it's a good idea to make maps like this in general.

Can you elaborate why not? I tend to view your stated opinion as a kneejerk reaction because, as others have pointed out, making such a map holds no advantage over actually going there.

Liatis added that STM's media representative, Amélie Régis, expressed concern to him that releasing the map would allow it to be used by actual terrorists training for an actual attack.

Sure. A terrorist attack planned thoroughly enough to need a map of the station will surely be planned out by relying on some map for a video game. They won't visit beforehand or rely on the already available better material. This guy is either detached from reality or trying to play the "omg terrism" card.

What's the STM gonna do once things like Google Glass are on the market?At that point it should be no problem to get pretty recent good quality video recordings of any station in first world countries.

Bravo to Liatis for fighting it. From the article it sounds like the biggest issue pertained to copyright, and since he's willing to change logos and that piece of art, I have a feeling he will prevail. They cannot copyright the layout of station (unless Canadian copyright law is very different from the US'?), so I think he'll win on that. And the whole terrorist training element seems like basically a joke designed to garner public opposition to the map and will not fly in a court of law. Or should not. But I guess we'll see!

While I agree they have every right to make a map of the station, I also don't think it is a particularly good idea. Yes, terrorists could visit the actual station to plan it out. But doing so would be more difficult, and could attract attention to them. By just walking through a building, it is difficult to determine the exact layout, angles, etc. (hence why it's taken them nine months to make this map). Actually taking measurements, examining angles for staying in cover, using a video camera, or taking pictures of odd things looks very suspicious in a train station where people normally just walk through while staring at their phones. Transportation security are trained to recognize people doing activities like these.

The things a terrorist would actually be interested in, such as wall thicknesses, obstructions to an explosion, good vantage points with lots of cover, are not easy to determine while casually walking through a train station. Having a highly detailed, physically accurate map like this would be extremely useful to someone planning an attack, if for no other reason than that someone else has already done a lot of the work for you.

Have you ever used Google Maps? Do you know how accurate they are? Do you know that you can run a truck full of explosives with Google Maps into anything you want? So what's so different with the CS map from Google Maps?

If you're a terrorist you don't want to plant a bomb. You're risking your own life and integrity as a terrorist. Instead you send a brainwashed suicide bomber. All he needs to know is how to reach the fucking station, which I think even a lobotomized cockroach can do. This is what has happened so far in the majority of terrorist attacks in metros in Europe.

While I agree they have every right to make a map of the station, I also don't think it is a particularly good idea. Yes, terrorists could visit the actual station to plan it out. But doing so would be more difficult, and could attract attention to them. By just walking through a building, it is difficult to determine the exact layout, angles, etc. (hence why it's taken them nine months to make this map). Actually taking measurements, examining angles for staying in cover, using a video camera, or taking pictures of odd things looks very suspicious in a train station where people normally just walk through while staring at their phones. Transportation security are trained to recognize people doing activities like these.

The things a terrorist would actually be interested in, such as wall thicknesses, obstructions to an explosion, good vantage points with lots of cover, are not easy to determine while casually walking through a train station. Having a highly detailed, physically accurate map like this would be extremely useful to someone planning an attack, if for no other reason than that someone else has already done a lot of the work for you.

What the fuck? It's the busiest station in Canada's second largest city and people would actually notice someone just walking around? The place is a multi-level maze. It's easy to see why it's a good candidate for a game map.

Stick around too long? Hop on a train and visit another station, then come back a bit later. Hell, I've spent an hour just wandering around some stations waiting for a friend to come by. No one bothered me, but then again I'm a white dude.

Conspiracy theory helps no one. A terrorist could actually already have the enitre 60+ station system mapped digitally, or stolen blueprints to see the maintenance/employee areas. There a ton of better ways to get to know an area then play video games.

Heck, I learned streets intersections of NYC by playing True Crime: New York City, but that doesn't help much in planning an attack. It just meant I could better orient myself when I got lost.

What the fuck? It's the busiest station in Canada's second largest city and people would actually notice someone just walking around? The place is a multi-level maze. It's easy to see why it's a good candidate for a game map.

Stick around too long? Hop on a train and visit another station, then come back a bit later. Hell, I've spent an hour just wandering around some stations waiting for a friend to come by. No one bothered me, but then again I'm a white dude.

Conspiracy theory helps no one. A terrorist could actually already have the enitre 60+ station system mapped digitally, or stolen blueprints to see the maintenance/employee areas. There a ton of better ways to get to know an area then play video games.

Heck, I learned streets intersections of NYC by playing True Crime: New York City, but that doesn't help much in planning an attack. It just meant I could better orient myself when I got lost.

Agreed. It is definitely possible to get all the same information through other means. My only point is that this map could eliminate a lot of the work required.

Wouldn't it be fundamentally better intelligence to infiltrate, say, the staff in one way or the other and gather the intelligence yourself? Video game maps take a LOT of liberties for the sake of gameplay that would be fatal to rely on if used as actual intelligence; a wall that's chest-high being reduced to waist-level to allow for shootouts... the height of the tracks in relation to the platform itself... whether alarms will seal doors, and if so, which doors?

It just seems like these things would be so much more important to know and playing on this level would really just be an after-thought.

Logic is on his side? Awww how naïve. Of course logic is on his side! But that doesn't matter. Bureaucrats aren't logical, and law isn't always logical. Who knows how this will shake out in court.

I support their decision to fight this 100%. But I don't think they know what they are getting into. Ignorant people will attempt to project their power, and they will fight this all the way. At some point it becomes a matter of pride and ego. Meanwhile the nerds just want to see logic prevail. That's not how the world works!

The Governments of Quebec are definitely not logical. They recently tried to fine Italian restaurants in Montreal for using the word "pasta", because pasta is an Italian word and it is against the law to do business in any language other than French in Quebec.

In 1999 they tried to fine a pet shop owner because one of the parrots in her store had been taught English.

"The STM sent Liatis a second letter, dated February 21, noting that "copyright on architectural works is well-established in jurisprudence as well as in [case law]” and invited Liatis’ counsel to meet with them last Friday."

IANAL but I doubt a metro station can be copyrighted as a architectural work, unless it has some unique features. And I doubt this one has any.

The basic metro station is architecturally as interesting as an common outhouse. There's a tube, or 2 for trains, a platform and escalators, stairs, lift and some doors to maintenance space. And thousands of near copies.

IANAL but I doubt a metro station can be copyrighted as a architectural work, unless it has some unique features. And I doubt this one has any.

Actually, every metro station in Montreal is designed to have something unique in it's architecture, so that may have some merit.

Quote:

Montreal's metro is renowned for its architecture and public art. Under the direction of Drapeau, a competition among Canadian architects was held to decide the design of each station, ensuring that every station was built in a different style by a different architect. Several stations, such as Berri-UQAM, are important examples of modernist architecture, and various system-wide design choices were informed by the International Style.