bulia byak wrote:
>So if we can fix a GTK problem on our own, especially such a bad
>problem as this one, we must. By the way this will also be a good hint
>to GTK for them to fix things, stronger than regular user complaints I
>think.
>
Absolutely. The gnome people seem to have forgotten about actually
testing their designs. The non-debian gnome 2.4 file dialog can only be
described as primitive and sucky. They have also demonstrated
disinterest in external improvements -- the 2.2 file dialog was
attrocious and debian and mandrake both had replaced it with something
functional and simple, yet gnome refused to incorporate this change,
instead inventing their own even more dysfunctional system.
njh

I'm cc'ing my reply to inkscape-devel, where more people will be able
to comment.
On Sun, 25 Jul 2004 20:30:52 +0300, Anatoly Podlesnuk <beerubeer@...> wrote:
> Hi
>
> It's good idea to join spalah and inkscape.
>
> There is some questions.
>
> 1. I'm not use in spalah "items tree" of SVG nodes from sodipodi. Spalah
> items tree is much simple. So I will need some help with inkscape items
> tree.
We haven't yet departed too far from Sodipodi's system of SPObjects
tree and repr tree that are synced periodically, though we did a lot
of incremental changes to it (mostly in the direction C++fying it). I
don't think anything simpler than that will actually work for
interactive SVG editing. Of course we will be glad to help you with
it.
> 2. Spalah uses ming library (ming.sourceforge.net) for flash generation,
> so inkscape will require this library.
No problem. SWF export is a good thing to have, even if for static
SVGs at first.
> 3. What is role spalah code in inkscape? It will a part of ExportDialog
> or inkscape will able to add animation to SVG objects? As I know
> inkscape does not support some SVG nodes that responses for animation.
Our goal is to be a complete SVG editor, and that includes animation.
So we'll need to add support for all the corresponding elements and
attributes. As for the UI, what I had in mind is a timeline control
selecting one of the frames for editing, plus a separate preview
window (based on inkview?) with actual animation. Of course, at this
stage all this requires lots of thinking, planning, and experimenting.
> 4. What about release planning, code formatting,
> classes/functions/variables names?
I guess the main development principle is that CVS must always remain
compilable and workable, without bad regressions. Releases are done
when there's enough stuff for a new release, usually every 2 to 3
months. There's a period of code freeze and bug hunt before a release,
but at other times you're free to work on your stuff. For coding
style, we have a few guidelines here:
http://inkscape.sourceforge.net/doc/coding_style.php
Let me know what you think.

> I'd really not recommend messing with the default layout in Inkscape. If
> people want to fork GTK over the issue they are free to do so (though i'd
> not really recommend that either) but I think Inkscape has to assume the
> GTK developers will sort things out in their own time.
I disagree. Such a blame game ("it's not our fault, complain to GTK")
is useless and stupid. As a user, I do not want to know anything
about GTK at all! All I want is Inkscape working properly.
So if we can fix a GTK problem on our own, especially such a bad
problem as this one, we must. By the way this will also be a good hint
to GTK for them to fix things, stronger than regular user complaints I
think.
> I know that the lack of easy keyboardability has been a consistent sore
> point with people so I think there are plans to address that, if not
> already done so.
The lack of transient dialogs in Gimp (and Sodipodi) was a sore point
too, and it dragged on for years with a similar blame game ("it's not
our fault, complain to your window manager"). In Inkscape, this was
the first thing we fixed after the fork, and everyone is happy since
then. Moreover, in 2.1 Gimp finally fixed this too (better late than
never...)

Hi,
A new translation file, nn.po has been committed. I also
modified (inserted the "nn" language ID) configure.in and
po/Makefile.mingw. Please let me know if something else
needs to be done.
Arpad Biro
__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
http://mail.yahoo.com

On Sat, 24 Jul 2004 20:28:23 -0400, MenTaLguY wrote:
> On Sat, 2004-07-24 at 19:55, Bob Jamison wrote:
>> I can't find the reference right now, but I found
>> some message on Google about how to add
>> a text widget to the open dialog. Just
>> set_extra_widget(Gtk::Entry), and a couple of
>> callbacks.
>
> We'll also need to make sure we work well with Debian somehow -- their
> version of the dialog already has a text entry field.
I'd really not recommend messing with the default layout in Inkscape. If
people want to fork GTK over the issue they are free to do so (though i'd
not really recommend that either) but I think Inkscape has to assume the
GTK developers will sort things out in their own time.
I know that the lack of easy keyboardability has been a consistent sore
point with people so I think there are plans to address that, if not
already done so.

On Sat, 24 Jul 2004 20:35:44 -0300, bulia byak wrote:
> First, it does not work.
I think you need a very recent version of GTK - it was added after 2.4.0
shipped!
> Second, even if it did, typing without seeing
> the actual characters you type is the most hideous offence against
> usability I can imagine.
Well, I'd probably agree to this ...

MenTaLguY wrote:
>On Sat, 2004-07-24 at 19:55, Bob Jamison wrote:
>
>
>>I can't find the reference right now, but I found
>>some message on Google about how to add
>>a text widget to the open dialog. Just
>>set_extra_widget(Gtk::Entry), and a couple of
>>callbacks.
>>
>>
>
>We'll also need to make sure we work well with Debian somehow -- their
>version of the dialog already has a text entry field.
>
>-mental
>
>
>
Another possibility is that, since Open and Save are
using the same code, the text widget in Open might
be present, but merely hidden. Anyway, still
doing a bit of research. Tried adding that text field
manually; it was laid out perfectly beneath the panels
as though it belongs there.
Bob

On Sat, 2004-07-24 at 19:55, Bob Jamison wrote:
> I can't find the reference right now, but I found
> some message on Google about how to add
> a text widget to the open dialog. Just
> set_extra_widget(Gtk::Entry), and a couple of
> callbacks. =20
We'll also need to make sure we work well with Debian somehow -- their
version of the dialog already has a text entry field.
-mental

On Sat, 2004-07-24 at 19:35, bulia byak wrote:
> > I don't think it would be impossible to add a text entry field to the
> > dialog, though, if it were required.
>=20
> I hope so. It's clearly required.
We'll have to somehow. The old file dialog API will eventually go away
and (from an API perspective) it's not as clean anyway.
I hadn't noticed it before because I use Debian, and debian replaced the
file dialog with something more sensible in their version of Gtk (same
API, but different behavior/appearance).
I knew the "official" version was a bit different, but I'd never used it
before.
This really sucks. :/
-mental

On Sat, 24 Jul 2004, bulia byak wrote:
> Date: Sat, 24 Jul 2004 20:35:44 -0300
> From: bulia byak <buliabyak@...>
> To: MenTaLguY <mental@...>
> Cc: Inkscape ML <inkscape-devel@...>
> Subject: Re: [Inkscape-devel] Gtk2.4/gtkmm2.4 file dialogs
>
> > Actually you're supposed to be able to type the filename and the
> > selection will move as you type (though I've not tried it).
>
> First, it does not work. Second, even if it did, typing without seeing
> the actual characters you type is the most hideous offence against
> usability I can imagine.
Some people are of the opinion that everyone opens their files using the
file manager (nautilus).
Not an opinion I share.
I still think the Mac File chooser, simple by default, expand to provide
more is the way to go (mostly, I know it aint perfect).
I'm not sure how to say this politely but complaining here achieves
nothing. Complaining on Gnome the usability mailing list might help.
Adding comments to the relevant bug report is probably the best way to go
(and I'll provide that link later (tomorrow) but I'm not looking up
Bugzilla on a crappy dialup connection). If you know Owen Taylor talking
sweetly to him would probably be more effective than any complaint.
- Alan

On Sat, 24 Jul 2004, bulia byak wrote:
> Date: Sat, 24 Jul 2004 19:32:23 -0300
> From: bulia byak <buliabyak@...>
> To: Bob Jamison <rjamison@...>
> Cc: inkscape-devel@...
> Subject: Re: [Inkscape-devel] Gtk2.4/gtkmm2.4 file dialogs
>
> I just tried the new filedialog. I've never seen it before in any
> other program, and therefore I had not realized that it has one really
> bad problem: there's no text entry field for the filename anymore.
>
> This means I cannot type in or paste a filename. All I can do is click
> click click, helplessly and infuriatedly. (Yes, I found I can press
> Ctrl+L from the dialog, but it's so stupid and inconvenient that I
> don't want to even discuss this. Besides, I actually read about it
> somewhere on the net - the dialog itself provides no clue on this
> hidden feature.)
>
> OK, Gnome is free to blatantly disregard usability - I don't care, I
> don't use it anyway. But Inkscape is something I care about a lot.
there were endless usuability discussions and suggestions,
they eventually went with one suggested design that was better in some
ways and sucks in others.
I dont like the clever new location widget and I dont like that they have
removed the text entry box for filenames/locations either.
I dont have it to hand but there is a bug report complaining about it and
I'll post it later (but I encourage you to find it, complains about
location bar and accessibitilty).
> Hence my question: can we please restore the entry field and put
> default focus to it in the new dialog? If not, I think we should
> return to the old one.
The most important feature of the recent changes is the clean new
FileChooser API. It should be relatively easy to completely replace the
file chooser for everyone and aviod Inkscape specific solutions. (more
ideas on how this could be done in a practical manner later).
Sincerely
Alan Horkan
http://advogato.org/person/AlanHorkan/

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