No offence taken. You make a good point. I think you are right. Thanks.

The Blessed One said:

"What is the All? Simply the eye & forms, ear & sounds, nose & aromas, tongue & flavors, body & tactile sensations, intellect & ideas. This, monks, is called the All. Anyone who would say, 'Repudiating this All, I will describe another,' if questioned on what exactly might be the grounds for his statement, would be unable to explain, and furthermore, would be put to grief. Why? Because it lies beyond range." Sabba Sutta.

treehuggingoctopus wrote:EDIT: Andrew108 and Heart, please don't take it personally. My intention is not to criticise anybody but bring what I consider to be a problem into focus.

No offense taken of course, this is an internet forum. One thing about internet forums is that nothing written there can be taken as anything else than indications and those indications might be all wrong. No way of really knowing who is posting or what their intention is. So the real question is should we read internet forums and should we have internet forums about subtle teachings such as Mahamudra and Dzogchen? I have no easy answer, but I think most of our Guru's would dislike the things we write here. Even so I am not sorry that I responded to Andrew108 and Kevin and most of what I wrote comes from my experience of these teachings. You might not trust that experience, but then again why should you, this is an internet forum.

/magnus

"To reject practice by saying, 'it is conceptual!' is the path of fools. A tendency of the inexperienced and something to be avoided."- Longchenpa

treehuggingoctopus wrote:: Andrew108 and Heart, please don't take it personally. My intention is not to criticise anybody but bring what I consider to be a problem into focus.

Actually seems like Andrew108 and Heart are saying close to the same thing, just in different ways, I can see the points they're both trying to make. It's just that this subject can appear contradictory due to the nature of the topic but all in all valid points are being made on both accounts IMO.

I appreciate many of the recent posts here. And while I agree that many lamas would not appreciate what is being done here, that lack of appreciation is a cultural thing, I think. We do things differently in the west. That's just how it is. After a while, you begin to fine tune your sensibilities about what is useful and what is not.

I think there is some practice wisdom that's being shared. As far as "trusting" someone else's experience, I would add a note of caution. Not because it is an Internet forum but simply because It's someone else's experience.

MalaBeads wrote:I appreciate many of the recent posts here. And while I agree that many lamas would not appreciate what is being done here, that lack of appreciation is a cultural thing, I think. We do things differently in the west. That's just how it is. After a while, you begin to fine tune your sensibilities about what is useful and what is not.

I think there is some practice wisdom that's being shared. As far as "trusting" someone else's experience, I would add a note of caution. Not because it is an Internet forum but simply because It's someone else's experience.

Ah well, what else is there to communicate.

/magnus

"To reject practice by saying, 'it is conceptual!' is the path of fools. A tendency of the inexperienced and something to be avoided."- Longchenpa

Malcolm wrote:There is really no need to follow other yānas if you are a Dzogchen practitioner. Why? Because the sgra thal 'gyur tantra is the root of all Dharma. It is the first Dharma ever taught to sentient beings. Every other Dharma comes from it. M

Can you say more about the history of the sgra thal 'gyur tantra and the 17 tantras?

Do one need any particular empowerments or transmissions in order to study the sgra thal 'gyur?

Yes, according to the nyingma tradition. There is the 100-deity empowerment that permit one to study and practice the terma teaching. Mainly due to the nature of the terma teaching being a mixture of gradual and sudden approach. If one mainly interested in the atiyoga, then it is permitted to extract that part of the knowledge without involving the gradual method.

MalaBeads wrote:I appreciate many of the recent posts here. And while I agree that many lamas would not appreciate what is being done here, that lack of appreciation is a cultural thing, I think. We do things differently in the west. That's just how it is. After a while, you begin to fine tune your sensibilities about what is useful and what is not.

I think there is some practice wisdom that's being shared. As far as "trusting" someone else's experience, I would add a note of caution. Not because it is an Internet forum but simply because It's someone else's experience.

My personal opinion is that we should respect the opinion of our root lamas on these matters, and try to apply their general advice about what to talk about and what not to talk about with others to our posts on internet forums. The key word here being "respect." If one has a lama who is relatively tight about these things and has articulated certain reasons for it, then it is good to demonstrate respect for our lama by honoring his/her opinion. Shutting up is a difficult practice, and I often fail at it, but I think it's good to try.

heart wrote:What I am saying is that no matter how you arrive at direct introduction, as in actually recognizing your natural state and not only being present at the direct introduction, after doing years and years of ngondro and yidam or by just accidentally participating in a Dzogchen teaching without any background in Dharma it just doesn't matter that much from my point of view. But no matter how we recognize the natural state our condition is still a very strong habit of delusion, anyone that pay some attention to their own mind will know this. This is why we practice, we need to let habitual delusion dissolve and gain confidence in the spontaneously present natural state. How do we do this? We use whatever it takes. Anything that actually work will do. Doesn't need to be Dzogchen, doesn't need to be Buddhism, doesn't even need to be anything spiritual at all. The main point is that it works. The nine yanas contain a huge amount of precious tools and teachings that are invaluable and a Dzogchen practitioner could apply them according to his/her condition, and in accordance with their Gurus timely advice, freely without limiting themselves in any way. Like Malcolm wrote above " the sgra thal 'gyur tantra is the root of all Dharma" meaning Dzogchen is the root of all Dharma, the heart of the matter. I know some old western practitioners and yogis that follow the Dzogchen tradition and from their life stories and my own I have learned to take very serious the need for accumulation of merit and wisdom (meaning creating happiness in others and to keep an open mind), to purify everything you regret, to always pray wildly and freely to your Guru, to never forget the suffering of others and to have the intention of helping everyone to gain full realization and to always, whatever you do, try to rest in the natural state. Some need to study to get to the bottom of their personal attachments, some might need to practice a lot of austerity, some will need to server their Guru, some might need to learn how to dance, some might need to learn how to cry and so on endlessly in order unravel our clinging to delusion and our fear of plunging in to the natural state. There are no real rules actually, it is all damn personal.

MalaBeads wrote:I appreciate many of the recent posts here. And while I agree that many lamas would not appreciate what is being done here, that lack of appreciation is a cultural thing, I think. We do things differently in the west. That's just how it is. After a while, you begin to fine tune your sensibilities about what is useful and what is not.

I think there is some practice wisdom that's being shared. As far as "trusting" someone else's experience, I would add a note of caution. Not because it is an Internet forum but simply because It's someone else's experience.

My personal opinion is that we should respect the opinion of our root lamas on these matters, and try to apply their general advice about what to talk about and what not to talk about with others to our posts on internet forums. The key word here being "respect." If one has a lama who is relatively tight about these things and has articulated certain reasons for it, then it is good to demonstrate respect for our lama by honoring his/her opinion. Shutting up is a difficult practice, and I often fail at it, but I think it's good to try.

Unless you are following the tradition of the gradual vehicles where blind faith in respectable figures (lamas) is the norm, otherwise dzogchen and mahamudra are the vehicles of definitive meaning. The four reliances applied to these definitive vehicles, that is, relying on the teaching and not the people (which include various opinions from teachers and followers). The teaching is depended on the other three reliances, relying on the intellect and not the consciousness, relying on the scriptures of definitive meaning and not the scriptures of non-definitive meaning, e.g. texts of sudden approach, not texts of gradual approach , relying on the meaning and not the words. Meaning is intellectual understanding of matter, matter is the reasoning of direct perception, words in their own has no direct relevance to matter unless the meaning of the reasoning is comprehensible.

Regarding talking about one's own meditative experiences and instructions received from teachers, i have heard from masters that this will degenerate one's own experiences and insights and deplete the blessings of the lineage to you.

wisdomfire wrote:Regarding talking about one's own meditative experiences and instructions received from teachers, i have heard from masters that this will degenerate one's own experiences and insights and deplete the blessings of the lineage to you.

The concept of receiving blessings from buddhas (or gurus and their lineages) is of the non-definitive meaning, not of the definitive meaning. In the definitive meaning, there is no buddha that can bless another being. If one is expecting to be blessed by a teacher or lineage, he has yet to understand the meaning of the definitive teaching.

Don't get lost in the 'definitive meaning'. In the ultimate truth, there is no idea of whether there is or is not a Buddha. Clinging to a concept of there not being a Buddha is just another form of concept.You are still living in this world, and you still have to eat to survive right? It means you are still affected by relative conditions. So transmission still matters. Don't act like it don't and mislead others.

wisdomfire wrote:Don't get lost in the 'definitive meaning'. In the ultimate truth, there is no idea of whether there is or is not a Buddha. Clinging to a concept of there not being a Buddha is just another form of concept.You are still living in this world, and you still have to eat to survive right? It means you are still affected by relative conditions. So transmission still matters. Don't act like it don't and mislead others.

Buddha is just a person awakening to the truth, the truth exists as a meaning, leaving the meaning as it is nakedly is the condition of the definitive meaning. So when one knows the definitive meaning, one sees the buddha, there no idea or concept needed. Transmission has nothing to do with an anticipated blessing, it has to do with the passing of knowledge. Knowledge is all about the meaning being described, if one don't know the meaning, even with the physical act of transmission, it is only a symbolic gesture.

heart wrote:What I am saying is that no matter how you arrive at direct introduction, as in actually recognizing your natural state and not only being present at the direct introduction, after doing years and years of ngondro and yidam or by just accidentally participating in a Dzogchen teaching without any background in Dharma it just doesn't matter that much from my point of view. But no matter how we recognize the natural state our condition is still a very strong habit of delusion, anyone that pay some attention to their own mind will know this. This is why we practice, we need to let habitual delusion dissolve and gain confidence in the spontaneously present natural state. How do we do this? We use whatever it takes. Anything that actually work will do. Doesn't need to be Dzogchen, doesn't need to be Buddhism, doesn't even need to be anything spiritual at all. The main point is that it works. The nine yanas contain a huge amount of precious tools and teachings that are invaluable and a Dzogchen practitioner could apply them according to his/her condition, and in accordance with their Gurus timely advice, freely without limiting themselves in any way. Like Malcolm wrote above " the sgra thal 'gyur tantra is the root of all Dharma" meaning Dzogchen is the root of all Dharma, the heart of the matter. I know some old western practitioners and yogis that follow the Dzogchen tradition and from their life stories and my own I have learned to take very serious the need for accumulation of merit and wisdom (meaning creating happiness in others and to keep an open mind), to purify everything you regret, to always pray wildly and freely to your Guru, to never forget the suffering of others and to have the intention of helping everyone to gain full realization and to always, whatever you do, try to rest in the natural state. Some need to study to get to the bottom of their personal attachments, some might need to practice a lot of austerity, some will need to server their Guru, some might need to learn how to dance, some might need to learn how to cry and so on endlessly in order unravel our clinging to delusion and our fear of plunging in to the natural state. There are no real rules actually, it is all damn personal.

Everyone is fully capable of following Dzogchen. Frankly speaking, nobody is able to not follow it - that would be horrible if he could (Duality Hazard!). Somehow people are not willing to accept it, and that's where the real capacity is measured.

Great topic, I was to lazy to read in all, but I will certainly follow.