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Now here's what I'm gonna do. Gonna make me a universe, see? And I'm gonna throw in some people, 'cause I got a plan, see?

And I'm gonna tell these people they're not allowed to eat from this one specific tree, see? Only, I'm gonna make them so that they pretty much instantly disobey me, so that I can punish them. And their progeny. Plus snakes, for some reason. Also, I'm gonna make it so their kids murder one another.

Now bear with me, 'cause from here it gets confusing. I'm gonna make it so that these people are so depraved and hideous that, a couple thousand years on, I've got to drown them all like rabid weasels.

OK, "got to" isn't entirely accurate. I'm GONNA drown them all like rabid weasels. Except for one guy and his family. Bit of a drunkard this guy, but otherwise an all-around bloke. So this drunk guy and his family will survive the weasel-drowning, see? Then they'll repopulate the planet with even more vile, despicable people, until I have to send my only begotten son down to straighten them out.

My only begotten son will be violently murdered, and THEN it gets interesting...

OK, I can see you think it's not necessarily a straightforward plan, but it's better than what the Cylons had.

The desert god of Judaism, Christianity and Islam I find impossible to believe. As Victor Stenger pointed out, there is no evidence where there should be some, so in this case (the theistic case) absence of evidence kinda constitutes evidence of absence.

Other than that, the deist idea of god(s), while in principle believable, is impossible to disprove, and there's no reason why there can't be two or infinitely many gods — or none (Ockham's razor). Even for a believer, why worship such elusive entities or claim to know their plans?

God's power is such that whatever He has decided to do, that is what will be done. God tells us that He has designed a plan that will be implemented because no one (not man nor angel) has the power to thwart or withstand His purpose.

So if God had planned that Adam and Eve would not eat the fruit of the tree of knowledge, they would not have eaten the fruit?

ETA: So if he had planned that Adam and Eve would eat the fruit, then they would have had no choice but to eat it. In which case that would mean God was an incredible bastard for punishing them so harshly for doing what he made them do.

Originally Posted by edge

If God truly is all powerful, and if He has a definite plan for mankind, then nothing happens outside the scope of that plan. Logically this means that He is the author of everything that happens, both good and bad.

So the actions of Vlad The Impaler, Adolf Hitler and the Nazis, the hijackers in the 9/11 attacks were all doing God's will?

Actually, Hitler and the hijackers believed they were doing God's will, so I suppose that's consistent.

ETA: But does it really logically mean that he is the author of everything that happens? After all, if his plans were to only consist of a broad outline of events and not the minutia of day-to-day living, then minor events could develop into any of a vast number of possible outcomes without ever being planned by God or falling outside the scope of his plans.

Originally Posted by edge

Numerous Scriptures confirm this to be the case:

Wait a sec. Doesn't your belief that this is true ultimately stem from the scriptures in the first place? (Eg, your beliefs come from what you were raised to believe, and the beliefs you were raised with come from the scriptures.)

You believe this claim because the scriptures say so. You believe the scriptures because they support this claim. Circular reasoning.

Do you have any rational reason to believe the scriptures are actually true to begin with?

__________________"That is just what you feel, that isn't reality." - hamelekim

If you do not believe there is a Devil then what does this verse mean?.... So did Jesus tempt himself pretending to be the Devil to himself?

Matthew {4:1} Then was Jesus led up of the Spirit into the wilderness to be tempted of the devil.

What does this one mean…. Did he possess people then pretend to be exorcising them from himself inside them while he is outside them?

Matthew {4:24} And his fame went throughout all Syria: and they brought unto him all sick people that were taken with divers diseases and torments, and those which were possessed with devils, and those which were lunatick, and those that had the palsy; and he healed them.

What do these verses mean… Did he put himself in pigs and then kill himself?

Matthew {8:28} And when he was come to the other side into the country of the Gergesenes, there met him two possessed with devils, coming out of the tombs, exceeding fierce, so that no man might pass by that way. {8:29} And, behold, they cried out, saying, What have we to do with thee, Jesus, thou Son of God? art thou come hither to torment us before the time? {8:30} And there was a good way off from them an herd of many swine feeding. {8:31} So the devils besought him, saying, If thou cast us out, suffer us to go away into the herd of swine. {8:32} And he said unto them, Go. And when they were come out, they went into the herd of swine: and, behold, the whole herd of swine ran violently down a steep place into the sea, and perished in the waters.

So did Jesus posing as Satan possess poor Judas to FORCE him to do what he would have never thought of doing?

John {13:26} Jesus answered, He it is, to whom I shall give a sop, when I have dipped [it.] And when he had dipped the sop, he gave [it] to Judas Iscariot, [the son] of Simon. {13:27} And after the sop Satan entered into him. Then said Jesus unto him, That thou doest, do quickly.

Don’t get me wrong…. I agree with you….YHWH a.k.a. Jesus IS the Devil….as I have stated in this post….I am just happy that you agree with me and bewildered how despite knowing this you still want to worship the VILE thing!!

__________________"I don't know if God exists, but it would be better for his reputation if he didn't" - Jules Renard
"In every country and in every age, the priest has been hostile to liberty" - Thomas Jefferson
"It is easier to fool people than to convince them that they have been fooled" - Mark Twain

If everything is part of God's meticulous plan, then why should we feel sorrow for anyone's suffering? When we read about the small children and babies who were taken from their mothers as soon as they got off the trains at the Nazi death-camps, and sent straight to the ovens where they were thrown alive into the fires, why should we feel bad about that? It was, after all, part of God's perfect plan. Yay God!

__________________Counterbalance in the little town of Ridgeview, Ohio. Two people permanently enslaved by the tyranny of fear and superstitution, facing the future with a kind of helpless dread. Two others facing the future with confidence - having escaped one of the darker places of the Twilight Zone.

You will convert eventually so that all will be saved.
It is written that all are drawn to him, at his will and there's nothing you can do about that.

it is also written that the answer to life, universe and everything is 42.

__________________What's the best argument for UHC? This argument against UHC.
"Perhaps one reason per capita GDP is lower in UHC countries is because they've tried to prevent this important function [bankrupting the sick] and thus carry forward considerable economic dead wood?"-BeAChooser

You will convert eventually so that all will be saved.
It is written that all are drawn to him, at his will and there's nothing you can do about that.

First of all, this is completely untrue. Not everybody converts to whatever version of Christianity you believe is the "true" one. Plenty of people die as Jews, Muslims, Hindus, atheists, Wiccans, Buddhists, etc...

Second, if everybody converted "eventually" so that all are saved, then what's the point of getting saved or trying to save other people? Why force something if it'll happen on its own? I wouldn't spend five minutes struggling to open a jar of pickles, if it would magically open on its own at my hour of need. Or is this like Dorothy in the Wizard of Oz? She had the power to get home all the time, but she needed to learn some lessons along the way which made her struggle worthwhile, because everyone knows there's nothing better for a teenage girl than being kidnapped by flying monkeys or watching your best friend be set on fire.

If everything is part of God's meticulous plan, then why should we feel sorrow for anyone's suffering? When we read about the small children and babies who were taken from their mothers as soon as they got off the trains at the Nazi death-camps, and sent straight to the ovens where they were thrown alive into the fires, why should we feel bad about that? It was, after all, part of God's perfect plan. Yay God!

Maybe that's the point what do you feel about that?
It could be that is exactly why there are two opposing reality’s so one can know the other and recognize the difference.
What would a good moral atheist feel about that compared to a serial murderer.
We want the knowledge of Good and evil, (the Apple) how could we know without bringing it into our reality?
Evil grows just as love grows.
It spreads, just as you walk into a joyous house hold verses a depraved household, can a person feel the difference in the ambiance?
Is there some kind of presence? Is there something that spreads with acceptance of the people in those households?

Isaiah 45:7 “I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things.”

Amos 3:6 “Shall a trumpet be blown in the city, and the people not be afraid? shall there be evil in a city, and the LORD hath not done it?”

Ezekiel
{20:25} Wherefore I gave them also statutes [that were] not good, and judgments whereby they should not live; {20:26} And I polluted them in their own gifts, in that they caused to pass through [the fire] all that openeth the womb, that I might make them desolate, to the end that they might know that I [am] the LORD.

1 Thessalonians 11-12
For this reason God sends them a powerful delusion so that they will believe the lie and so that all will be condemned who have not believed the truth but have delighted in wickedness.[/quote]

Ezekiel 14:9 And if the prophet be deceived when he hath spoken a thing, I the LORD have deceived that prophet, and I will stretch out my hand upon him, and will destroy him from the midst of my people Israel.

__________________"I don't know if God exists, but it would be better for his reputation if he didn't" - Jules Renard
"In every country and in every age, the priest has been hostile to liberty" - Thomas Jefferson
"It is easier to fool people than to convince them that they have been fooled" - Mark Twain

If the Devil were to write books that would DECEIVE humans and cause CHAOS and STRIFE....in what way would they differ from the ones we have now?

__________________"I don't know if God exists, but it would be better for his reputation if he didn't" - Jules Renard
"In every country and in every age, the priest has been hostile to liberty" - Thomas Jefferson
"It is easier to fool people than to convince them that they have been fooled" - Mark Twain

First of all, this is completely untrue. Not everybody converts to whatever version of Christianity you believe is the "true" one. Plenty of people die as Jews, Muslims, Hindus, atheists, Wiccans, Buddhists, etc...Second, if everybody converted "eventually" so that all are saved, then what's the point of getting saved or trying to save other people? Why force something if it'll happen on its own? I wouldn't spend five minutes struggling to open a jar of pickles, if it would magically open on its own at my hour of need. Or is this like Dorothy in the Wizard of Oz? She had the power to get home all the time, but she needed to learn some lessons along the way which made her struggle worthwhile, because everyone knows there's nothing better for a teenage girl than being kidnapped by flying monkeys or watching your best friend be set on fire.

Yeah, I guess that does sound a lot like religion.

I can't force you to do anything, but I can get you to discuss in here.
The people I highlighted in yellow all except maybe wiccan have in common is they believe in God or a higher power.

The conversion of all isn't going to just happen here and that will be it, because here there will always be disblievers, it is after life here, in or on the otherside, also it will be in his time and not ours.
Heck it might take a quarter of an eternity for an atheist converts.

Leumas: You forgot about when he was asked about it by priestly officials.
He said, “ why would Satan Cast out Satan”, or why would he cast out himself?
Who is in control?

the answer as you said

Originally Posted by edge

If God truly is all powerful, and if He has a definite plan for mankind, then nothing happens outside the scope of that plan. Logically this means that He is the author of everything that happens, both good and bad. Numerous Scriptures confirm this to be the case:

You ask

Originally Posted by edge

Why would Satan go around healing people to get them to believe in one God that’s overall including Satan?
Satan doesn't want us healed.

Your answer is

Originally Posted by edge

It’s been written that God used Satan to carry out his will.
As In the story of Job.

and

Originally Posted by edge

God's power is such that whatever He has decided to do, that is what will be done. God tells us that He has designed a plan that will be implemented because no one (not man nor angel) has the power to thwart or withstand His purpose.

If God truly is all powerful, and if He has a definite plan for mankind, then nothing happens outside the scope of that plan. Logically this means that He is the author of everything that happens, both good and bad. Numerous Scriptures confirm this to be the case:

__________________"I don't know if God exists, but it would be better for his reputation if he didn't" - Jules Renard
"In every country and in every age, the priest has been hostile to liberty" - Thomas Jefferson
"It is easier to fool people than to convince them that they have been fooled" - Mark Twain

Your reversing their roles I am in aggreement that it was all from God but it is for his plan not ours and not satan, and agin I'll ask you what is the theme through out all this? who is in control?
It this world more good than bad?
I got to go to sleep.

In DOC's ghoulish natural disasters' thread edge explains repeatedly that today's natural disasters aren't happening because god is pulling the strings. In this thread everything is part of god's plan.

It's almost as if edge is making it up as he goes along.

__________________"You may not know anything about the issue but I bet you reckon something.
So why not tell us what you reckon? Let us enjoy the full majesty of your uninformed, ad hoc reckon..."
David Mitchell

I can't force you to do anything, but I can get you to discuss in here.
The people I highlighted in yellow all except maybe wiccan have in common is they believe in God or a higher power.

How about the atheists which you've highlighted? They don't believe in a higher power. Neither do the Buddhists. Hindus believe in more than one higher power. Also, if it doesn't matter which higher power(s) a person believes in, can you explain why anybody should be attached to any particular religion? It seems that most Christians believe that "Jesus is the way and the life" but you're saying that it doesn't matter whether one believes in Odin, Allah, Zeus, or Thor. It's all under the same umbrella.

Quote:

The conversion of all isn't going to just happen here and that will be it, because here there will always be disblievers, it is after life here, in or on the otherside, also it will be in his time and not ours.

Does the "after-life" exist in our time or his time? You do realize that if heaven is outside our universe, and outside the bounds of our space-time continuum, then there is no time, i.e. no before and after, i.e. Grandma isn't already in heaven "waiting" for you, because everybody is already there.

Quote:

Heck it might take a quarter of an eternity for an atheist converts.

There's no such thing as a quarter of infinity or a quarter of eternity. You can't take an infinite concept or a timeless concept and split it into quarters like a football game.

That's the problem when you start positing beings (gods) and planes (heaven) which exist completely outside of the physical universe and linear time. You can't use familiar "worldly" concepts to imagine or explain what's going on there.

Just admit that you're making it up as you go along, and all the stuff you say is all the stuff you want to believe, even if you have no idea how all the parts fit together.

In DOC's ghoulish natural disasters' thread edge explains repeatedly that today's natural disasters aren't happening because god is pulling the strings. In this thread everything is part of god's plan.

It's almost as if edge is making it up as he goes along.

Originally Posted by joobz

it is also written that the answer to life, universe and everything is 42.

Originally Posted by edge

I heard it was 420?

This might explain it. It might explain a lot.

__________________Counterbalance in the little town of Ridgeview, Ohio. Two people permanently enslaved by the tyranny of fear and superstitution, facing the future with a kind of helpless dread. Two others facing the future with confidence - having escaped one of the darker places of the Twilight Zone.

Why stop at one..... I want Salma Hayek AND Penélope Cruz AND Maribel Verdú AND... oh well at my age that might just be enough for now.... I'll give the blonds wish-list next year.... if I am still breathing...

__________________"I don't know if God exists, but it would be better for his reputation if he didn't" - Jules Renard
"In every country and in every age, the priest has been hostile to liberty" - Thomas Jefferson
"It is easier to fool people than to convince them that they have been fooled" - Mark Twain

__________________"I don't know if God exists, but it would be better for his reputation if he didn't" - Jules Renard
"In every country and in every age, the priest has been hostile to liberty" - Thomas Jefferson
"It is easier to fool people than to convince them that they have been fooled" - Mark Twain

Your reversing their roles I am in aggreement that it was all from God but it is for his plan not ours and not satan, and agin I'll ask you what is the theme through out all this? who is in control?
It this world more good than bad?
I got to go to sleep.

I think YHWH will probably win a Zeus (the Oscar of the gods) for all the special effects....maybe also for the most bizarre and convoluted plot.

“Great job of scripting, producing and directing…. But I think acting in the show too was a mistake” said Homer

"Me thinks he loves the limelight a wee bit too much" said Zeus

"A little too vain" said Narcissus

"Way too many wars" said Mars

"Too many bloody genocides" said Kali

"He ripped my heart out" said Quetzalcoatl

"Crucifying his son was a good twist.... but I am not so sure about the resurrection...it belies the sacrifice" said Agamemnon

__________________"I don't know if God exists, but it would be better for his reputation if he didn't" - Jules Renard
"In every country and in every age, the priest has been hostile to liberty" - Thomas Jefferson
"It is easier to fool people than to convince them that they have been fooled" - Mark Twain

God's power is such that whatever He has decided to do, that is what will be done. God tells us that He has designed a plan that will be implemented because no one (not man nor angel) has the power to thwart or withstand His purpose.

If God truly is all powerful, and if He has a definite plan for mankind, then nothing happens outside the scope of that plan. Logically this means that He is the author of everything that happens, both good and bad. Numerous Scriptures confirm this to be the case:

Actually, God put the plans on a map but a bunch of dwarves who work in his landscaping department stole them and then kidnapped a little kid, all in a plot to become filthy rich. They even ripped off Napoleon, but Robin Hood stole all their loot.

It all had something to do with free will, if I recall.

__________________"Everything that is really great and inspiring is created by the individual who can labor in freedom." (Albert Einstein, 1950)

If the Devil were to plan a fate for human kind while also trying to confuse and deceive us....in what way would it differ from the one we have now?

If the Devil were to write books that would DECEIVE humans and cause CHAOS and STRIFE....in what way would they differ from the ones we have now?

If There was no god or devil or any rubbish like that.....in what way will the world differ from what we have now?

__________________"I don't know if God exists, but it would be better for his reputation if he didn't" - Jules Renard
"In every country and in every age, the priest has been hostile to liberty" - Thomas Jefferson
"It is easier to fool people than to convince them that they have been fooled" - Mark Twain

If God truly is all powerful, and if He has a definite plan for mankind, then nothing happens outside the scope of that plan.

That does not follow at all. If there is a God who has an "all powerful" plan for mankind, then it does not automatically follow that God decides to personally determine everything that anyone does.

He might perfectly well decide to let people do all sorts of things for themselves.

Originally Posted by edge

Logically this means that He is the author of everything that happens, both good and bad. Numerous Scriptures confirm this to be the case: ....

How can any scriptures "confirm" anything about any God? They cannot, because the scriptures were all written by ordinary mortal men. There is no evidence that any scripture was actually written by any god.

The only thing that ancient man-made scriptural writing "confirms", is that certain people at that ancient time, believed all sorts things about gods, angels, devils, and miracles ....

... claims of which (god's, devils, angels, spirits and miracles etc.) have all been thoroughly investigated by modern science, and in every case found to be completely untrue. In fact, mostly found to be deliberate lies by the religious people themselves.