28 October, 2011

We've been thinking about the possibility of making Grand Cru pedals these past few weeks. Our idea is for two versions. The first is a double sided pedal with a large platform almost like a BMX pedal, but with great bearings. The second is a single sided version with a flip tab intended primarily for use with toe clips, but designed for street shoes rather than stiff-soled bike shoes.

We want them to be reasonably light, not desperately expensive, and with very long-lasting bearings. We've explored the idea of a spindle with three sealed bearings and another with a combination of needle bearings and sealed bearings. A grease port is another feature we're looking at. Maybe something like a super-premium version of the VO touring pedal.

What would your ideal pedal be like? Single sided or double? Is it worth paying more for a super-durable bearing system or is it better to just keep re-building cheaper loose bearing pedals. And do you find quill-style pedals uncomfortable with street shoes?

Also, please see the update to the last post for the winner of the brake name contest.

67 comments:

Jesse
said...

I have been dying for you guys to make some Grand Cru pedals. I currently ride MKS GR-9's. They are single sided, they take toe clips, they have toe flips and they have cheap ball bearings. I would love to buy similar pedals with nicer bearings, but there isn't anything priced reasonably. I can't ride track style pedals with street shoes, its too painful. The MKS pedals are the best thing I have found, but they are very narrow, they have loose ball bearings and they do not properly accomodate a double toe strap. I wear a size 12, but my foot is at least an inch wider than the spindle. I greatly prefer sealed bearings, in fact my MKS GR-9 are the only bearings in that bike that are not sealed. I would love to talk about pedals all day, but thats my 2 cents.

For me, the benefits of a one sided pedal are pretty straight forward. Once I install toe clips, the pedal is effectively one sided anyway. I would destroy the toe clips riding on the underside. There is no point in providing a platform on the underside, since it will never be used.

street shoes (vans) are the most comfortable for me to ride in. most of my friends agree. they are low profile, and can also be worn on sail boats and shit. i would like to see a pedal that supports like the MKS grip king, but somehow looks much much more elegant. and to be used with clips and straps. i would also be willing to pay more for a high quality bearing system. i don't like messing with that stuff.

Personally, I don't use any sort of retention system, I ride in comfortable shoe (in case walking becomes part of the itinerary), I like double-sided pedals, and quill pedals are always too narrow for my feet. I do appreciate light(ish) pedals.

That's a pretty weak argument for ones sided pedals though. That is like saying your newly designed kitchen shouldn't have power outlets because you don't have a blender or toaster so you wouldn't use them anyways. What if someone, someday buys the pedals from you and doesn't use clips...or you hand them down to your daughter who just needs platform pedals. Are you concerned about weight savings? visual aesthetics? Is there some mechanical advantage? These are things that would possibly convince me. The simple fact that you don't use the other side doesn't really make any arguable sense. Have you never pushed off from waiting at a red light & had to pedal 10 revolutions with the pedal turned upside down and the huge spindle uncomfortably pressing the middle of your foot?

I like the idea of riffing on the VO touring pedal. I have a set and I like both the look and the function (the lack of weight is a nice bonus). The platform feels a little bit too small for me. An additional two to four pins would be good. The two pins on the touring pedal locate the foot well, but in bad weather or emergency maneuvers it would be nice to have more. I like the sandblasted finish better than black, but shiny would be better.I guess in the end I'm thinking about an attractive cross between a BMX and a traditional touring pedal.

I love my VO touring pedals. They are a little narrower than I'd like for wearing boots in winter, but the rest of the year they are just fine. I have a bike with clipless pedals, but the bike with flat pedals gets more and more of my miles. I don't need toe clips. but much of your audience for Grand Cru probably wants them. The sealed bearings are a big plus for me as I like to ride, rather than maintain, my bikes and I ride in all weather.

I was using the VO Touring Pedals on my previous commuter & liked them so much that I moved them over to my Polyvalent when I put it together. A "super-premium" version with upgraded bearings would be great. I like the light weight, but I do have a wide foot, so a slightly wider version (that was designed for street shoes) would be a benefit to me. I use them without clips or straps but I have considered adding half-clips. I like that versatility and probably wouldn't buy one-sided pedals.

Good to know that VO is constantly thinking about new products and upgrades to existing ones.

A completely redesigned cage would be nice. I don't have particularly large feet, I'd say small-to-average actually, but I haven't found a pedal with enough support for normal shoes except for the lambda. Something like that with nice bearings would be great.

Pedals other than the lambda have all been too short and narrow for me.

I would love to see a double sided pedal with enough traction for use in rainy climates and a large surface area for nearly any shoe....but it has to be wide enough, perhaps in the 115mm range with something to support the center of the foot (not) just a thin perimeter cage. That style digs into your foot and can't be used with regular shoes for long rides. A grease port would be awesome or quality, easily replaced cartridge bearings. The MKS Grip King Rivendell sells is alright but not wide enough and I don't think durable enough, bearing wise. Wish I could draw you a picture of what I am thinking. A place for reflectors would be useful for commuters not hung up on esthetics. Toe clips look nice on a vintage ride but they don't help much in my experience.

Love the idea...I would love, like so many posters here, to have something like the MKS pedals, but with better bearings, and for the love of Pete--wide enough for feet and shoes that have a little volume...

Two pedals I would love someone to make:1. An updated rubber block pedal. BMX-style platforms are great for soft rubber soles, but leather and hard rubber soles (like Sperry Topsiders) slip all over them. Old-style rubber block pedals are heavy, though. I'd pay out the nose for a lighter, sleeker modern version, and with the trend toward high-performing commuters, I really see a market for this.2. A platform pedal that's wider that the GR-9s and costs less than the White Industries pedals. Basically, remake the Lyotards with better bearings and without the tab for cleats.

If you could offer those two products, I'd name my firstborn after you.

I'm very pleased with this new direction. I have several observations I hope constructive:

PowerGrip capable. That means attachment is possible to front and back of pedal. Toe clips are okay. PowerGrips are better. Please!

Yes, not uber-expensive, but aim for the best possible quality and allow the price to be slightly above the middle ground to achieve that quality.

My absolute favorite pedals that I hope VO might emulate:

Touring type: * Barelli B-10 (check VeloBase). By far the finest pedal I've ever owned. Many say they are the finest pedals ever made. Bearing surfaces machined to Rolls Royce standards. BUT, they are not PowerGrip capable. They are still the finest pedals I've ever ridden. Excellent platform that is comfortable over long distances.* Specialized Touring, made by MKS. What the revised VO Touring could be with large cartridge bearings. These have the perfect platform. The second best pedal I've owned. Look closely at these, please.* MKS Sylvan Touring. Only with uber-cartridge bearings.* VO Touring - only wider, with stronger/larger bearings. PowerGrip capable.

BMX type: * Suntour Bear trap pedals. The original and best of the BMX style. Hutch for the crazy collectors. For VO, perhaps a bit less "bite" to the teeth with the street shoe in mind, but still enough for traction in wet weather. Oversized cartridge bearings for strength.

HOw about a common pedal body with replacable (and interchangable) cages? Something like the SUnTour Superbe Pro road and track/XC Pro/BMX pedal that seemed to share a body and differed only in cage design. That pedal is my favourite design anyway.M Burdge

Here's another vote for an evolution of the MKS GR-9. I've been using them for several years and close to 40,000 miles and like them a great deal, but they could stand improvement. The issues I have with them:

1) Too narrow. My size 11 foot is about the max; I'm surprised that a commenter with size 12s can use these.

2) I'd much prefer quality, replaceable sealed bearings. Even when i get new ones I have to take them apart and regrease and readjust them.

3) The damn flip tab constantly breaks off. I replace mine with angle brackets when they do, but its ridiculous.

Pluses:

1) Comfortable, even though too small. I've ridden several centuries in them along with loads of commuting in LA traffic, even fire trails.

2) They do not damage shoes! I have used Adidas Adi Speeds with these for two or three years running. They work great with street shoes. This is important to me. No other toe-clip compatible pedal I've tried is as kind to street shoes.

They are slippery when wet if you don't have toe clips, but since they are made and marketed specifically for use with toe clips this isn't a big deal. I have ridden plenty of rain miles with them.

So, take the GR-9 concept to the next level! I'd love to combine the result with the MKS Deep Toe clip you offer, to expand the shoe options.

And some quality, classic looking rubber block pedals, as someone mentioned, for my wife's city bike.

I have TA road pedals on my Bertin. IMO they are the finest road pedals, ever. I also have much less expensive BMX pedals on an around town bike. The BMX are useful in that situation. I think that it is a mistake to attempt to design a do-all-things-well pedal.

The bearing quality/lifespan on "standard quality" Wellgo cartridge BMX pedals, ie the ones that BMX companies typically get made for them for the sealed version of their pedals, is really pretty good. I don't actually have a position on how easy it is to replace them, since I've actually never done it, but it seems to me that if affordability/value in a reliable, long-life cartridge bearing pedal is a priority, whether you can just get away with using Wellgo and ending up with something that can retail in the realm of $40-60 like non-super-fancy BMX cartridge pedals tend to is the first question. (Another way of saying this might be that "almost like a BMX pedal, but with great bearings" seems like it might be assuming too much about how non-great the bearings actually are on typical sealed BMX pedals). Another thought: if you really mean a BMX-esque platform, maybe check out closely some of what's actually been done in BMX land before deciding whether to make your own. One that might be worth fondling/riding (ie not just looking a picture of) is the Fly Reuben. A final thought: if VO had Brooklyn Machine Works make a pedal for them, I'd buy it. And whatever you do, the name really should be a 'Revenge of the Nerds' reference, as a reply to the Rivendell/MKS "Lambda."

I vote for a sealed bearing Lyotard 23 type pedal, flat and comfortable not to mention classy. I dont care for the look of machined bulky pedals or chunky cast bodies like the GR9. Stick to the campy quill vibe of the VO Road pedal

kind of limited market (even for VO). Most of that niche market knows to get GR-9s, clean bearings and races when new, add abrasive toothpaste, reinstall and ride for 5 or 10 miles, then take apart, add new ABEC 25s and appropriate lube-(anything from marine grease for extreme wet to light oil for sub zero temps) and adjust bearings. Yeah, a little work involved but even the humble pedal transforms into a insanely smooth, customized component.

I was going to comment on the pedal attributes but decided to look thru your current offerings first. For what it's worth, considering the VO pedals cost around $60, I would not be in the market for a presumably more-expensive GC pedal, regardless of how great a design it might be. I've been getting by on MKS touring pedals just fine. Wish they were a bit wider but they're close enough and they are cheap enough that I don't expect perfection.Dan

I've been meaning to customize my MKS Lambda pedals to accept a strapless toe clip, maybe by switching out one of the curved pedal pieces with a flat, touring pedal piece, to see if that would be the best of both worlds. I also think I read that Rivendell was going to start selling those with traction pegs already inserted, a plus. Straight touring pedals don't work for me unless I have pretty thick-soled shoes. They can destroy the soles unless they are old-style leather-soled.

I do think that, regardless of what design you choose, the Lambda's approach of avoiding a side surface altogether and focusing on fore and aft surfaces is the most anatomically pleasing.

Okay everybody, listen up. Hands-down best touring/rough-rider pedal with or without clips and straps is the Suntour XCII Bear Trap. It's wide, hella grippy, takes retention devices just fine and looks excellent on everything from a mountain bike to a medium-tire road bike.

I really like the Sun-Ringle ZuZu pedals. They are BMX style. They are concave, have nice grip pins, are pretty light, and seem pretty durable. I've had a pair on several bikes. A pedal with these qualities that looked a little less BMXy (in silver maybe)would be good. That said, I don't think they look too bad on my Lotus Odyssey.

This is an extrusion I've seen sold under a variety of labels (Nukeproof Neutron? Superstar Nano?) but never at a price that justified taking a chance on them. I think they look OK though, nice low profile, reasonable weight.

For commuting (~7km one way) I've tried clipless, BMX style platform pedals, track pedals, and am currently using the MKS GR-9 with half clips, which are the best I've tried - supportive, comfortable, and they flick up unconsciously.

I commute in dress shoes in the summer and dress boots in the winter.

So something like the GR-9 but with invincible bearings would be best IMHO.

+1 a high-end version of the MKS gr-9.A gr-9 that's slightly wider, takes double straps, has awesome bearings, feels like a platform pedal but behaves like a cage.Learn from the White Industries success & failure of their urban pedal. Success = improvement on the gr-9. Failure = price hike disproportionate to the improvement of the gr-9 design.

There is a huge gap in the pedal market for higher end city pedals that can be worn with any shoe type, especially dress/hard soled shoes. Wellgo makes several city pedal variants with rubber surfaces for traction, but they are all low end pedals meant for cruiser bikes and seemingly non-serviceable. MKS makes their rubber block pedal, and while serviceable it's curved outer cage prohibits wider shoes from fitting and sealed bearings would be nice. The only example of what I'm talking about is the new Ergo bicycle pedal, which combines a large platform with grippy surface. It's decidedly modern looking, so a VO city pedal that retains a silver metal body with rubber surface on each side would be a huge seller in my opinion. There are tons of sealed bearing BMX/platform pedals that use spikes for traction, so I would avoid a similar design.

The TA pedals are some excellent pieces of engineering but I truly miss my old campagnolo triomphe pedals. They were about the prettyest pedals I ever had and they had the advantage of being comfy in street shoes. Make some jewelry like that and I'll buy a pair.Allan Pollock

two sided, grippy, no cage, clips, etc. (not neccessary) wider than king grip pedals with sealed bearings. MKS touring pedals are great but not grippy enough. your current touring pedals are nice looking, but i think could be a tad wider.

I own both VO Touring and Road pedals, and have run PowerGrips on the Touring model and toe clips on the Road version. I've recently taken the PowerGrips and toe clips off. I really, really like the Touring pedals, mainly because they are double sided and real grippy. The Road pedals are great, but I don't like the fact that they are one sided, except when using toe clips. One thing I like about the VO Road pedals, compared to other road pedals, is there is enough cage on the outer portion to file off the vertical part! I have big feet and this thing is murder on a long ride! I don't mind having it there, as long as the pedal has a deep enough cage to allow removal without splitting the cage in two pieces. Maybe the ideal thing would be a double sided road pedal that you can add a flip tab to. I also like the idea of being able to use tor clips or PowerGrips with them.

I'd love to see a pedal that has one body, and the ability to bolt on a couple of different cage styles, from a large, comfy set up for use without toe clips, to a smaller, toe clip compatible style. That way i can change between my commute and a longer sportier ride without the hassle of pulling the whole pedal off the crankarm

We already have the grip king, and a plethora of BMX pedals, so we don't need yet another retentionless pedal. But I'm not aware of any currently made platform pedal for use with toe-clips that's suitable for an adult male (MKS GR-9s are too small if your foot's bigger than a size 10 or so - I hated mine and I'm not the only one). So something like a GR-9 but bigger would be good - I'd buy at least one set.

I hate quill pedals, (plus I already have a boxful of take-offs in the basement). Same problem: too small for big feet and the quill pushed into my foot. Plus anything with a thin edge like that is uncomfortable for me in soft soled shoes. Ditto for track pedals, but even more so.

@andy squirrel: if you use toe clips, you only use one side of the pedal anyway. And they look better.

In the last two years I havegone to no clips, and relatively light weight shoes. I wear size 13, so width is important, I ride in the rain, so grip is important, and with thinner soled shoes I want support at the middle of the pedal as well as the front and back.

In my experience the bearings lastpretty well with minimal maintenance.

My current favorites have not been mentioned: Performance Bike ATB Comp Pedals. Light and thin, with support from the axle in the middle of the pedal, as wide as just about anything, above average grip for a pedal that does not have pins (Way better than the MKS Touring!).

It is one sided, but it is not bad pedaling on the bottom for awhile. I think the one-sided aspect helps with pedal strike on a wide pedal.In other words, it is worth it to have a one-sided pedal if it allows for a wider pedal.

I looked at the Grip King -- Too Narrow.Traditional Quill style pedals: I need a stiffer sole or they can be uncomfortable. In general my foot is too wide if they are not flat on top.

Please make a platform pedal in the spirit of the MKS Sylvan touring pedal, more elegant, better bearings and a SHARPER cage (more bite on the soles of one's shoe)!I wouldn't install a BMX style platform on anything I own - they are too chunky/clunky looking. Why not make something beautiful, elegant and light looking? The world is full of BMX platform pedals, sure the bearings may not be up to your standards but there are still a ton of them out there.I vote for elegance!web

How about a reintroducing the most comfortable,aesthetically pleasing,and understated pedal of all time, the Marcel Berthet platform type 23, originally made by Lyotard? They fit the criteria of randonneurs and were featured on many of the constructeur bicycles of the "golden age". These pedals were simple in design,light weight, and made of pressed steel. The platform includes a rear toe flip making foot entry with toeclips easy. The were made with loose ball bearings. The only problem I have had using them is that the pedal dust caps would sometimes fly off. They could now be manufactured in wider widths, with or without sealed bearings... Please

I will join the chorus of those that would like a modern version of the Lyotard No. 23 that costs less than the White Industries version. The Sakae Ringyo SP-11 was an aluminum bodied pedal using bearing balls that was an improvement on the design. VO could make a big splash with a well thought out pedal based on these designs. Best of luck!

If you disassemble the Lambda, the body is very generic (see 2:20 in my youtube on the topic http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wo0YlOqqISs ). I wish VO could make a quality bearing body like this, to which we could attach our Lambda cages, a beartrap cage, a touring cage, a toe clip capable cage, a power grip optimal cage, all to the same top quality body. The parts would be available a la carte. That would be ideal. Please consider exactly that.

The other thing that would be useful is a double-sided platform pedal that's wide enough to use with trail running shoes, will accept toe clips (or PowerGrips/Velcro fixie straps), and has decent bearings and is as small and light as reasonably possible. Would make an excellent everyday pedal for casual use, and also be great for touring in out of the way places, or hwere lots of walking has to be done.

Someone mentioned Barelli pedals. Please DO NOT copy these!!! Due to a serious stress raiser, the axles had a 100% failure rate, and Barellis are the only pedals I've ever managed to break. They did look very nice in the shop though.

More pedals? I really love the V.O stuff, but I think it unwise to come out with new products that are not really needed just for the sake of doing something new. I poersonally don't "get" the Toe clips renaissance! I rode Toe clips 20 years ago, but the advent of the SPD pedal has made them somewhat obsolete! Sure you still have to wear special shoes with SPD's but there are some good choices and you can always use Platform pedals.

It might be interesting to see VO do a new platform pedal, but as others have mentioned there are so many great choices in the BMX arena, that it does not make sense to re-invent the wheel. My current favorite BMX plat forms are Demolition Magnesiums and I have a pair on my Drakkar and my Surly Cross Check! If VO could take the Platform pedal and do something Steam punky with it I might be interested. VO always seemed to lend itself to that aesthetic anyway! My only objection to the BMX platforms is looks anyway, they seem a bit clunky for a fine, non-fat tire bike, but you can't argue with the way the function. Maybe you guys could have a design a platform pedal contest?

Not to sound like a broken record, but I too would put another vote in for updated Lyotard Marcel Berthet pedals. I have yet to try those out but they seem very aesthetically pleasing, yet practical. The originals are just too hard to find (a lot of them are with french threading too) and the White Industries version is way out of my price range. I'd definitely put an order in for something similar if it was say $60. I ride my fixed gear bike most of the time, so one sided pedals are kind of what i've been looking for. I incidentally have the Lyotard #36 double sided pedals on my other bike which also look pretty snazzy too...

Okay. The anonymous slander of Barelli pedals needs to be addressed. To verify, I took this to the CR list where it was roundly dismissed, although it was suggested that such rumors DO help keep prices down for those in search.

In fact, there was a brief window of a Barelli pedal model built on a cartridge bearing rather than the famously milled cones. This model has stress riser issues, although no one on CR knew of actual failure of any pedals.

SO, it's mostly about the platform of the B-10, which is quite comfy in soft soled shoes.

I have an old set of KKT Pro Ace quill pedals on my commuter, and I use street shoes with no clips or straps of any kind. The cages on these have several tabs and grippy bits that make them very comfortable and easy to get my feet on. I'd jump at the chance to get a similar set of classic styled quills but with better internals.

Whatever you guys do make sure your new pedals are wide enough for those of us with big feet. Ideally the pedal should take up to a EEE or EEEE width work boot with no problem.

Also make them use high-quality sealed bearings.

As for pedal types I can see 3 I might want:

1. A one-sided platform pedal for use with toe clips or power grips. They should work with double straps for those that roll that way. As for looks something along the lines of the Lyotard or classic Campagnolo platforms would fit the VO style best.

2. Something with the looks of a classic rubber-block pedal but with quality bearings and a solid frame.

3. Light semi-classic look double-sided road/touring pedal with good support under the ball of the foot. Should be toe-clip and power grip compatible.

I wear street shoes and always ride with clips and straps. With a size 10.5 shoe, I find the traditional lip on the outside of road quills sits under my soles and is uncomfortable. I've got Suntour XC Pros on one bike and an earlier Suntour mountain pedal (model unknown, more or less the same pedal bottom, sealed bearings, but without the grease guard and with a different shaped cage) and they're perfect. They get bonus points for having cages that are useable on the non-clip side for moments when I need to accelerate in a hurry and haven't had a chance to get my foot into the toeclip. And extra bonus points for the two little spikes coming out of the underside of the bodies, making my hold on the wrong side of the pedal feel that much more OK.

The girlfriend's bike has the basic Superbe Pro pedals with quill cages; her street footwear is narrow enough not to be bothered by the outside lump on the cage.

Ages ago I had a pair of Suntour Cyclone track pedals (similar body, but with free bearings) and these had one feature I miss on the road and mountain versions: a recessed allen head screw for pinning down the toes strap as it passed through the pedal body. Not really necessary, but it makes a nice finishing touch.

I know this is an old post, but I want to echo the zillion people above who have asked for a wider version of the Lyotard Berthet. I love the design of that pedal, but my size-12 feet hang uncomfortably over the side.