Comments on: The poorest community in the United Stateshttp://blogs.discovermagazine.com/gnxp/2011/04/the-poorest-community-in-the-united-states/
Wed, 04 Dec 2013 06:45:00 +0000hourly1http://wordpress.org/?v=4.0.1By: John Emersonhttp://blogs.discovermagazine.com/gnxp/2011/04/the-poorest-community-in-the-united-states/#comment-32286
Fri, 22 Apr 2011 14:54:42 +0000http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/gnxp/?p=11065#comment-32286It strike me that Amish population growth is limited by the size of the economic niches for small farmers and related technology. (Around here they have a small sawmill, they build barns, and they have a metal shop, the modern equivalent of a blacksmith shop. — plus the crafts.) They seek out poor, cheap land and buy it with cash, but there’s only so much of that to buy. Soon the whole marginal-farm sector might be Amish, but that’s not a wonderful niche.
]]>By: John Emersonhttp://blogs.discovermagazine.com/gnxp/2011/04/the-poorest-community-in-the-united-states/#comment-32285
Fri, 22 Apr 2011 14:49:04 +0000http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/gnxp/?p=11065#comment-32285Some of the commenters in the thread TGGP linked seemed unable to realize that the reason that 5% of the Medicaid participants spend 50% of the money isn’t profligacy, but disease. I’m one of the lucky people who spends nothing at all on medical care many years, but it’s not because I’m a frugal or good person.

Biologically, the most successfully fertile win, but politically and economically the factors and targets are different. Bengal, Java, and Egypt have done well in the population competition, but they’re enormous losers in every other respect. China and India have won the population competition, but they’re still playing catch up otherwise.

]]>By: David Boxenhornhttp://blogs.discovermagazine.com/gnxp/2011/04/the-poorest-community-in-the-united-states/#comment-32284
Fri, 22 Apr 2011 10:16:00 +0000http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/gnxp/?p=11065#comment-32284I don’t think they are “highly dependent on income transfers”. I think if the transfers were to stop, they would make the necessary adjustments and continue on much as before.
]]>By: Randy McDonaldhttp://blogs.discovermagazine.com/gnxp/2011/04/the-poorest-community-in-the-united-states/#comment-32283
Fri, 22 Apr 2011 07:43:58 +0000http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/gnxp/?p=11065#comment-32283it doesn’t strike me that a poor community so highly dependent on income transfers from fellow sectarians and the wider society represents a significant challenge to the majority culture. The risk of defections aside, the political economy of the community is profoundly vulnerable to external shocks.
]]>By: TGGPhttp://blogs.discovermagazine.com/gnxp/2011/04/the-poorest-community-in-the-united-states/#comment-32282
Fri, 22 Apr 2011 06:27:27 +0000http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/gnxp/?p=11065#comment-32282I guess I spoke too soon.
]]>By: TGGPhttp://blogs.discovermagazine.com/gnxp/2011/04/the-poorest-community-in-the-united-states/#comment-32281
Fri, 22 Apr 2011 03:33:30 +0000http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/gnxp/?p=11065#comment-32281I agree with Emerson that there’s some resentment in Israel, but due to fear of high Arab relative birth-rates and the strategic usefulness of the often ultra-orthodox settlers (some would argue against the wisdom of such a strategy, but that’s the way it’s been for decades) they continue to be tolerated. However, Americans are not going to have that view, and certainly are not going to feel guilty about not being so exemplarily jewish. I would expect reactions similar to that of communities trying to drive away FLDS compounds. If they could adopt a more self-sustaining model like the Amish, they would be more likely to inherit the earth.
]]>By: John Emersonhttp://blogs.discovermagazine.com/gnxp/2011/04/the-poorest-community-in-the-united-states/#comment-32280
Fri, 22 Apr 2011 00:33:23 +0000http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/gnxp/?p=11065#comment-32280They breed and they flourish. No fear, just hope of the promise to come. They will be the inheritors. They are rich in the possibilities of future.

Give them points for community and avoiding the negativities of modern life, but with no emphasis on education mentioned and high welfare dependency, they look more like a freakish dead end, a viable third world enclave in the middle of the modern world.

“Third world” is too strong, they seem to be at the very bottom economic end of the developed world, probably like come Latin American country. And only because they’re subsidized.

If I’m not mistaken, such communities in Israel are widely resented.

]]>By: Markhttp://blogs.discovermagazine.com/gnxp/2011/04/the-poorest-community-in-the-united-states/#comment-32279
Thu, 21 Apr 2011 20:52:59 +0000http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/gnxp/?p=11065#comment-32279“The other outlook on this group is that they use their disproportionate strength in votes to legally steal funds from surrounding areas to build “public goods” that really only support a single group’s private need from those around them who create the value that produces those funds. This allows them to continue to live their lifestyle without worrying about the actual requirements to provide for their families. If you are going to live a quiet, religious lifestyle, it’s better not to do it on the backs of others who have no choice in the matter…”

I, too, am annoyed by religious people who subsidize their lifestyles through some form of welfare, as I don’t pay taxes to bring others closer to God. Still, I think most of these groups would survive even without public assistance. Several thousand Old Order Mennonites left Canada for Mexico in the early 20th century and stayed there, preferring to subject their children to *malnutrition* while they figured out how to survive on Mexican farmland and in the Mexican economy rather than expose those same children to the Canadian public school system. Very religious people are willing to put themselves and their families through quite a bit.

]]>By: David Boxenhornhttp://blogs.discovermagazine.com/gnxp/2011/04/the-poorest-community-in-the-united-states/#comment-32278
Thu, 21 Apr 2011 20:46:52 +0000http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/gnxp/?p=11065#comment-32278The experience of communities like the Amish suggest that this may be a fairly good model of reality.

]]>By: ohwillekehttp://blogs.discovermagazine.com/gnxp/2011/04/the-poorest-community-in-the-united-states/#comment-32277
Thu, 21 Apr 2011 19:07:37 +0000http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/gnxp/?p=11065#comment-32277The flip side to the population genetic fitness benefits of an ideology that favors large families with low incomes is the impact of ideological conversion.

One particularly notable recent effort to quantify ideological conversion factors showed that under assumptions pretty close to reality, ideologies that people are more likely to convert away from than convert towards inevitably die out under a very robust range of other factors much more quickly than you would intuitively expect.

Tweaking the assumptions a little while still remaining within the range that empirical evidence dictates limits the basic conclusion only slightly – there can be a steady state with a tiny core of people who share an ideology that has net ideological conversion losses, but it doesn’t cascade out of control as simplier population genetic models would suspect. The experience of communities like the Amish suggest that this may be a fairly good model of reality.

I have to believe that children in a predominantly Yiddish speaking Hasdic Jews in a small impoverished community, no matter what other virtues it may have, are going to be more likely to convert out than outsiders are to convert in in 21st century in the New York City suburbs. The outside world which is impossible to hide is just going to be way to tempting for those kids to resist. They aren’t going to be Anglicans who join country clubs in the next generation, but a lot are going to at least marry native born non-Hasidic Jews rather than other members of the community.

]]>By: omarhttp://blogs.discovermagazine.com/gnxp/2011/04/the-poorest-community-in-the-united-states/#comment-32276
Thu, 21 Apr 2011 18:37:17 +0000http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/gnxp/?p=11065#comment-32276Does anyone know what this community does for medical care? I doubt if they can afford private insurance. Do they get medicaid? medicare?
]]>By: Diogeneshttp://blogs.discovermagazine.com/gnxp/2011/04/the-poorest-community-in-the-united-states/#comment-32275
Thu, 21 Apr 2011 16:54:23 +0000http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/gnxp/?p=11065#comment-32275Reaction often mimmicks Revolution, particularly in it’s last gasps…
Ultra-religious revivals all around the World (some more uncompromising than others) may not be what they seem I think, since it’s difficult to make linear predictions in transitory epochs (and yet people love them- see financial bubble).
]]>By: Terryhttp://blogs.discovermagazine.com/gnxp/2011/04/the-poorest-community-in-the-united-states/#comment-32274
Thu, 21 Apr 2011 15:14:10 +0000http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/gnxp/?p=11065#comment-32274The other outlook on this group is that they use their disproportionate strength in votes to legally steal funds from surrounding areas to build “public goods” that really only support a single group’s private need from those around them who create the value that produces those funds. This allows them to continue to live their lifestyle without worrying about the actual requirements to provide for their families. If you are going to live a quiet, religious lifestyle, it’s better not to do it on the backs of others who have no choice in the matter…
]]>By: omarhttp://blogs.discovermagazine.com/gnxp/2011/04/the-poorest-community-in-the-united-states/#comment-32273
Thu, 21 Apr 2011 14:49:32 +0000http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/gnxp/?p=11065#comment-32273“there are communities and cultures which have no such hesitation. They breed and they flourish. No fear, just hope of the promise to come. They will be the inheritors. They are rich in the possibilities of future”.

I dont think they are the inheritors in the sense that they will take over the world some day. The world is a very big place. I think such communities and closed cultures are likely to remain exceptions, not the rule. And they lose adherents even as they breed new ones. I admire a lot of these communities but I dont think most people are going to be joining them…I think the attractions of “progress”, while decidedly mixed, do reflect something about human nature. Even in Iran, which is about as “Islamic” as a large country can be (and therefore has some of the same “richness of possibilities of the future”), the population growth rate has slowed dramatically as people have become more modern. Small communities will continue to buck the trend, but the vast majority of humankind is condemned to looking like the vast majority does right now: pretty mainstream (and not so attractive?). They may be reproducing less per capita, but they are huge in absolute numbers and likely to stay that way….They may ALL become poorer if some disaster hits at a global level or capitalism crashes and nothing more efficient replaces it, and then they will no doubt start breeding more too, but I dont see a future where the descendants of this village outnumber the descendants of the Chinese.

]]>By: gwernhttp://blogs.discovermagazine.com/gnxp/2011/04/the-poorest-community-in-the-united-states/#comment-32272
Thu, 21 Apr 2011 14:25:13 +0000http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/gnxp/?p=11065#comment-32272Drat, I guessed wrong – I figured it was one of the dissident Mormon sects engaged in polygamy (though I couldn’t figure out how they would not be speaking English at home).
]]>By: Charles Nydorfhttp://blogs.discovermagazine.com/gnxp/2011/04/the-poorest-community-in-the-united-states/#comment-32271
Thu, 21 Apr 2011 12:59:33 +0000http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/gnxp/?p=11065#comment-32271I was born in Williamsburg, Brooklyn, the neighborhood from which Kiryas Joel draws its population. I was never personally religious and I’m not big on family life but other neighborhood values have always stood in me in good stead. I believe in honest poverty, using my resources to support my scholarship. I’m somewhat communitarian and I have tried to keep up my Yiddish.
]]>By: JShttp://blogs.discovermagazine.com/gnxp/2011/04/the-poorest-community-in-the-united-states/#comment-32270
Thu, 21 Apr 2011 11:25:08 +0000http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/gnxp/?p=11065#comment-32270If this is the future then the future is ecological disaster followed by generalized famine.
]]>By: Razib Khanhttp://blogs.discovermagazine.com/gnxp/2011/04/the-poorest-community-in-the-united-states/#comment-32269
Thu, 21 Apr 2011 08:44:52 +0000http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/gnxp/?p=11065#comment-32269david, yah, i had the exact same thought….
]]>By: David Boxenhornhttp://blogs.discovermagazine.com/gnxp/2011/04/the-poorest-community-in-the-united-states/#comment-32268
Thu, 21 Apr 2011 08:41:29 +0000http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/gnxp/?p=11065#comment-32268Reading the Wikipedia article about the conflicts between high-density Kiryas Joel and the surrounding low-density exurban communities, I am reminded of the conflict between agriculturists and hunter-gatherers. Hunter-gatherers probably also wanted to maintain their superior, luxury lifestyle. They can delay the inevitable, and indeed had a lot of tools at their disposal to do so, but in the long run they cannot win against demographics.
]]>By: Spike Gomeshttp://blogs.discovermagazine.com/gnxp/2011/04/the-poorest-community-in-the-united-states/#comment-32267
Thu, 21 Apr 2011 08:31:05 +0000http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/gnxp/?p=11065#comment-32267They can’t all be Matisyahu, can they?
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