Ironically since you say you didn't want to go into depth, there's a lot of detail that muddies the waters in a comparison because there's several details that are the same in both builds, therefore not necessarily relevant to the comparison. There's also a few items that I think you overlooked because you were trying to concentrate on the major differences - the strength bonus to damage does not appear to be correct for the stalwart defender build is one that jumped out at me.

Most importantly in my mind, if I'm going to try to compare, I need to know what the Student of War abilties are that you will be losing in the switch. I did not have time to go back through the thread to view previous posts.

So I'm giving all of that to provide my excuses for not giving a response. Ultimately, Gorguk's right, anyway. Go with your gut - if it feels like Lothar is developing toward a tank, you have your answer. If it feels like he's going more cerebral in his combat, you have your answer. If he's going for a cerebral tank, I have no idea what to tell you. ;-)

Sorry if it sounds like I'm copping out, it's not my intent. But I do think you are the only one that can answer this. The whole build is far more complicated than I would do, so I can't even tell you which choice I would take if it were my character. Either choice will be very cool, I don't think you can go wrong.

OK, Rhasa's build is not as ironed out or intricate as Lothar's, but here's what I'm looking at. Using decisions already made that are very archer-based and inserting some future decisions for melee (and letting her bonus feats continue the archer goodness), I'm looking at the following series of feats through tenth:

The only question is whether my two-handed elven curved blade, a finesse-able weapon, can be used with power attack. It seems like it would be an option, and RAW does not appear to prevent it, but I think it's a DM's call.

If it's kosher, without changing any of her other stats, she would be dealing an average of 14 points per round to an AC of 20 from range and 15 points per round in melee. Not bad for an archer.

Naturally, there are other choices involved - ability score bumps, armor, magical weaponry and defenses - that would factor into this as she develops, but I like the rough outline. (Note for purists, this is a fair departure from Treantmonk's switch-hitting ranger. I'm modifying it based on Rhasa's current stats.)

OK, this is interesting. I calculated my likelihood of hitting and my average damage with my current stats, but adding the feats I have in mind and increasing the BAB as though I was eighth level.

Using Weapon Finesse, I hit much more often, which I expected. (Attack bonus +12/7 vs +6/1)

Using Power Attack instead, I do far more damage until around AC 20 where the increased chance of hitting slowly overcomes the increased damage. (Damage 1d10+1 vs 1d10+10)

I am debating not taking Weapon Finesse at all even though I like the idea of having a sword with options. If I don't take Weapon Finesse, I could take Quick Draw (to switch between ranged and melee faster when the foe closes in) or Cleave, two likely options. This also puts me closer to the switch hitter as designed - Treantmonk leans toward a melee build, buffing strength and taking melee feats, that happens to have archery skills.

Decisions on this scale are enough for me, I could never manage a complicated build like Lothar's...

OK, this is interesting. I calculated my likelihood of hitting and my average damage with my current stats, but adding the feats I have in mind and increasing the BAB as though I was eighth level.

Using Weapon Finesse, I hit much more often, which I expected. (Attack bonus +12/7 vs +6/1)

Using Power Attack instead, I do far more damage until around AC 20 where the increased chance of hitting slowly overcomes the increased damage. (Damage 1d10+1 vs 1d10+10)

I am debating not taking Weapon Finesse at all even though I like the idea of having a sword with options. If I don't take Weapon Finesse, I could take Quick Draw (to switch between ranged and melee faster when the foe closes in) or Cleave, two likely options. This also puts me closer to the switch hitter as designed - Treantmonk leans toward a melee build, buffing strength and taking melee feats, that happens to have archery skills.

Decisions on this scale are enough for me, I could never manage a complicated build like Lothar's...

It's not that complicated.... and I think you're doing yourself a disservice thinking that way. It all comes down to what you want out of a particular build. You're going the single class route, but the options that you have are not very easy to figure out. Trying to navigate that is no small thing. Me... I'm just cherry picking. You're doing the real work. And don't you think otherwise.

It's not that complicated.... and I think you're doing yourself a disservice thinking that way. It all comes down to what you want out of a particular build. You're going the single class route, but the options that you have are not very easy to figure out. Trying to navigate that is no small thing. Me... I'm just cherry picking. You're doing the real work. And don't you think otherwise.

Well... I'm limiting the number of choices I have to live with coming out of the gate by making it a single-class build, but I suppose you are correct - there are still a lot of options within a single class and I have to shoehorn everything I want into a single set of abilities. But opening myself to selecting from all of the available classes still seems daunting.

It's all good. I've had my share of characters that never stayed in a single class for more than three levels because I was cherry-picking. I just never felt like I quite got what I was looking for. My favorites have been rather single-minded.

Since we've been discussing different builds, I got to looking at what I might do as far as Calinder is concerned. I got looking at the Loremaster prestige class and thought that it would be a fun path to take.

I'll think about it for now as it'll be awhile until I can go that direction. It just sounds like it is fitting for the direction that I've taken Calinder in, kind of the scholar/historian role.

Two things: I've been really busy lately...job searching, filing taxes, being called for jury duty, and dealing with the fact that one of my players not only had a heart attack but had surgery to get three stents inserted into her heart. I had a post ready to upload but my computer ate it and I have to redo it again. Hopefully it'll get done before the week is done. The second thing...congratulations on the receiving of your calling. I hope it works out well for you.

Not to fret, Lothar - you take care of the important stuff first. Every good wish to your player for her swift recovery.

As for the calling, everyone else (including my family) seemed to have expected it - me, I'm still startled at it all happening so quickly. The whole of the meeting on Sunday, people were coming and congratulating me. We have enough teachers that I shall be called upon about once a month. One of my fellow students in the Preparation to Teach class gave me a wonderful gift, a really nice set of scriptures which he said he just happened to have spare... I usually study online, but it will be convenient for church rather than juggling a motley assortment of books.

Megan, congratulations on the calling in church. The best advise I can give to you is to try to make the lesson a discussion, instead of lecture as much as possible. I've found if you can get the class members discussing their thoughts and feelings about the lesson subject, it makes your job as teacher a whole lot easier.

It will probably take a few times before you can get a good feel for how the lessons should go, just keep at it and prepare as much as you can before hand, and you'll do fine.

Lothar, sorry to here about your friend, hope she recovers quickly. As you can tell by the frequency of my posts, I've been swamped as well.

I cannot believe that it's been almost a month since I was told that I'm being laid-off from work. I've put out a few resumes and applications, but I haven't got any positive responses back. I got another half dozen jobs I found the other night to apply for once I can get the time to do it.

As for our game, hurray, we've got the Sootscales helping us and the possibility of a bandit scouting party coming our way soon. Let's get them bandits!

Thank you, Calinder. The Preparing to Teach class I have been doing since the end of November should help, it's been a fascinating time and a valuable addition to previous secular teacher training - both the regular sort and military 'methods of instruction' - that I have done. I tend to teach by the Socratic method anyway, so it is just a case of prayerful preparation of the material...

... and the old preacher's prayer: "Lord, fill my mouth with worthwhile stuff - then shut it when I've said enough!"

Sorry for may absence lately. Been busy the last few days which culminated with coming into work yesterday morning to find that out new server which we had just put into production was down. Took all day to get the issue resolved.

I start looking at what spells Calinder should have ready for when we go after the scouting party. If anyone has some suggestions, or would like something specific, let me know.

I have the ability to cast Entangle. That could also cause some havoc along with Barnabus' new spell.

As far as spells go, obviously Lothar's haven't changed any. So there's grease, which could be of use to cause havoc amongst the patrol, and vanish, which can be used to conceal the presence of one or two of us. And of course message to keep us in communication with each other.

Thanks, Lothar. One of our missionaries called yesterday. He is moving to a new assignment and wanted to express appreciation and thank me for all I do... ME? He's doing all the hard work!

As for this alternate reality: some nice in-character stuff going on, well done everybody. It's fun trying to give all my bandits separate personalities so that they are more than someone to beat up on...

OK - I am teaching in church tomorrow (the Relief Society lesson about the Temple for the LDS here... quite silly as I am not yet eligible to go as I was only baptised last September!) so need to work on my lesson a bit more.

You will arrive at the Stag Lord's fort tomorrow after church. I was thinking that as you sound ready for a fight we'd deal with the Stag Lord first, and explore at your leisure afterwards.

Megan, hope your lesson went well. There's no better way to learn about something than to have to teach someone else, at least as far as church goes anyway.

Ironically, the time I felt more nervous was when my wife and I taught the Sunbeams (3 & 4 year-olds). It was a learning experience for sure. Trying to condense a lesson down to match their attention span, and then figuring out what to do with the rest of the class time. Once we got the hang of it, it was a good assignment.

They said that they enjoyed the lesson, nearly all of them thanked me for it. Not sure when I shall be called upon again, we have quite a few ladies called to be Relief Society teachers. They have been reassigning the home teachers and to my surprise I have the Stake President as one of mine!

Dont' worry still following hte IC thread just nothing to add since I am resting. Hopefully nothing happens in the night but Gorguk will be prepared. I don't really have the skills for this anyways. Good Luck you 2.