Irving v. Lipstadt

Transcripts

I am not an expert on Austrian law, but certainly under 1back up before the beak but yet they did not. He was set 2free. Both Defendants were set free and never prosecuted 3again although they were the architects whose names appear 4on those blue prints which were in your hands in 5Auschwitz. Is this not a remarkable comment on the state 6of the evidence? 7A.
[Professor Robert Jan van Pelt]
I think it is a remarkable comment on the way the Austrian 8court operated. I have all the files in my possession. 9Certainly after I came out of months of studying the files 10in the courtroom there, I must say that I lost much of my 11respect at least for Austrian justice. They had all the 12documentation from Auschwitz. They had all the blue 13prints. They had all the documents which had been 14under discussion, for example, in my expert report with 15two or three exceptions only. They got material from 16Moscow for this trial. They had the blue prints there and 17they were never consulted. 18Q.
[Mr Irving]
And yet they were acquitted. So it was a perverse result, 19in other words? 20A.
[Professor Robert Jan van Pelt]
It was a very perverse result and I think that, if indeed 21an expert witness had been brought in to look at those 22documents carefully, they would not have been acquitted. 23Q.
[Mr Irving]
Very well. You had these documents before you at the time 24you wrote your book "1270 to the present"? 25A.
[Professor Robert Jan van Pelt]
Which documents? 26Q.
[Mr Irving]
The Ertl trial document. I had the Ertl trial documents.

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1Q.
[Mr Irving]
Were you aware of the 1947 figure of 300,000? 2A.
[Professor Robert Jan van Pelt]
I was aware of that figure. 3Q.
[Mr Irving]
And that the German newsreel in January 1948 again said 4that in the judgment passed on these 40 men, many of whom 5were hanged, they were hanged for the murder of 300,000 6people in Auschwitz? 7A.
[Professor Robert Jan van Pelt]
I did not know the newsreel. 8MR JUSTICE GRAY: The 300,000 were not grassed, presumably, if 9they were registered prisoners? 10A.
[Professor Robert Jan van Pelt]
Some of them would have been gassed. Others would have 11been beaten to death. Some of them would have been killed 12with phenyl injections. People would have been shot and 13people maybe would have died from beatings or other 14causes. 15MR IRVING: Did you make any reference to these lower figures 16at all in your book on Auschwitz? 17A.
[Professor Robert Jan van Pelt]
No, I did not, because I think these figures were 18irrelevant. 19Q.
[Mr Irving]
Were irrelevant? 20A.
[Professor Robert Jan van Pelt]
Were irrelevant. The book ultimately presents a cumulative 21figure of all the deaths in Auschwitz, both of people who 22have died as a result of murder immediately after their 23arrival and of people who have died after having been 24registered in the camp. 25Q.
[Mr Irving]
You are familiar, no doubt, with the book written by 26Professor Arno Mayer, "Why did the heavens not darken", in

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1which this Professor of Princetown University, who was 2himself Jewish and who cannot be called a Holocaust denier 3presumably, said that most of the deaths at Auschwitz in 4his opinion were from what he called natural causes, and 5that a very small percentage had been criminally killed in 6the accepted sense. What is your response to that? 7A.
[Professor Robert Jan van Pelt]
That I am very happy to discuss the exact statement of 8Professor Mayer if I have the text in front of me. I have 9referred to him in my expert report. If you are happy to 10deal with my excerpt in the expert report, I am happy to 11look for it, but I am not going to comment in general on 12what Professor Mayer said without having the text. 13Q.
[Mr Irving]
So are you saying in other words that you think Mayer is 14wrong? He got it wrong? 15MR JUSTICE GRAY: No. I think he is saying, I cannot comment 16on a document which is not in front of me. Unfortunately, 17it is not a document, it is a book. 18MR IRVING: Do you not agree that I accurately precis-ed what 19he said? 20A.
[Professor Robert Jan van Pelt]
I do not think you do that. I do not think this is 21accurate, what you said. 22Q.
[Mr Irving]
That Arno Mayer said that, in his opinion, most of the 23deaths in Auschwitz were through natural causes rather 24than from criminal intent? 25A.
[Professor Robert Jan van Pelt]
Again, I am not going to comment on this text. The 26question was, did you appropriately precis Mayer's

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1argument? I do not think so. It is a rather long 2argument. I know it has been taken out of context many 3times, and Mayer's text has been taken as "in admission" 4that indeed Auschwitz was not an extermination camp. 5Q.
[Mr Irving]
It is difficult to see how you can take that remark out of 6context. It seemed to be a very pithy summing up by him, 7which has been very widely quoted and caused much 8indignation, I agree, in the Jewish community. He may of 9course be totally wrong. 10MR JUSTICE GRAY: Professor van Pelt's position is again, 11I think, a fair one. If you want him to comment on what 12Mayer concluded, then he must have the right to look at 13the document. 14MR IRVING: Very well, my Lord. I will not delay the court by 15looking for that document now, but certainly we will refer 16to it ---- 17MR JUSTICE GRAY: I am trying to find the reference to it in 18Professor van Pelt. 19MR RAMPTON: Page 590, my Lord. 20MR JUSTICE GRAY: It is not where I would have expected. 21A.
[Professor Robert Jan van Pelt]
It is at page 629, 620. 22MR JUSTICE GRAY: I assumed it was at the beginning. 23A.
[Professor Robert Jan van Pelt]
It a little earlier also. It is actually in 89 that Mayer 24published his book. And so here, 594 and 592, all Mayer, 25590. It starts at 590. 26MR IRVING: My Lord, I think possibly I shall leave this until

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1after the luncheon adjournment and come back with chapter 2and verse. 3MR JUSTICE GRAY: Whichever you wish. 4MR IRVING: Because we are rather drifting away from the actual 5camp site, which is the way I was hoping to take this 6cross-examination. If I may produce the photographs 7again, we had concentrated on crematorium number 2, where 8you said that 500,000 people (in round figures) had been 9killed by the Nazis in that one buildings, this you called 10the geographical centre of any map of atrocities, a very 11telling phrase. Would you tell the court what this little 12building is down there? 13A.
[Professor Robert Jan van Pelt]
Yes. It seems to be a pump building. 14Q.
[Mr Irving]
No. Would you accept from me that this is a coal bunker? 15A.
[Professor Robert Jan van Pelt]
A coal bunker? 16Q.
[Mr Irving]
Or coke bunker. 17A.
[Professor Robert Jan van Pelt]
I thought you meant another one. This particular thing 18there? 19Q.
[Mr Irving]
Yes. 20A.
[Professor Robert Jan van Pelt]
Yes. 21Q.
[Mr Irving]
That is a coke bunker. I have not got equipment here for 22measuring the size of that bunker, but it appears to be 23about 10 feet square, in other words a very small space. 24A.
[Professor Robert Jan van Pelt]
It seems to be a larger to me from what I remember but, 25again, 10 feet, 13 feet square, whatever. It is not a 26very large bunker.