Now, I know I'm late to this party, but when we say multi-acre, are we talking less than 5 or more than 20? Is the attacking force expected to be mounted or dismounted? Fire team, squad, platoon, company sized element? Civilian arms only, or captured military gear? Availability of explosives? Knowledge of explosives manufacture? Materials on hand?

Personally, to defend a large area containing several buildings, I would want, at minimum, a squad sized element with rifles, nvg's. I would want tank traps at entry points, sandbags/equivalent cover at various defensive positions, command det HME devices at my ECP and internal chokes (both antivehicle and antipersonnel), a few loyal, obedient, large, aggressive outdoor dogs, a rotating watch schedule, and several vehicles staged ready to take on planned exit routes, primary, secondary, or tertiary.

You can find answers to all your questions by reading the earlier posts in this thread.

As far as area to defend, the map the OP provided shows they have at least 6 square kilometers to worry about and upwards of 10 depending on if they want to keep watch on the road to the rear of their location.

Word. When you boil it down, more space/ vulnerable areas just translates into more squads, better comm, more dogs, and more defensive positions to ID and prep. On the plus side, you probably have more egress routes to choose from.

Word. When you boil it down, more space/ vulnerable areas just translates into more squads, better comm, more dogs, and more defensive positions to ID and prep. On the plus side, you probably have more egress routes to choose from.

It would be great if, if, the original poster had all the resources possible, but what can be done with his posted resources.

I feel as if this thread has taken a tangent on theory, but needs to be out in practice with what is there.

Anyone willing to talk about what can be done physically to prepare the homestead? There have been good ideas about making it look dilapidated, And a lot of arguments about doing anything but be willing to bug out at anytime.

Also a lot of good suggestions about training, servicing weapons and vehicles, and dogs (For and against) but very little about protecting the homestead. (Aside from landmines which could be a tragedy)

The series of posts by the lizard farmer I linked to earlier in this thread covers physical defenses, and especially where and how to place them appropriately given your own specific terrain, defensive plans/goals, and capabilities. Really good stuff and provides answers to a lot of the OP's questions.

The series of posts by the lizard farmer I linked to earlier in this thread covers physical defenses, and especially where and how to place them appropriately given your own specific terrain, defensive plans/goals, and capabilities. Really good stuff and provides answers to a lot of the OP's questions.

Thank you, I did not completely read your first quote, thank you for rementioning it. I read 2 of the 12 blogs and he does mention some good stuff. I will read through the rest.

I did like the use of natural and manmade obstacles. I can see how the berms and sloped land work well. I have done similar to keep the quads and motorcycles from tearing up our place. I hate the idea of berms allowing bad guys to have cover should I be in a situation where I am having to defend the farm but it does slow down vehicles. I could see doing this on the OP's property as well. Make things difficult and make it look unattractive (No treasure to steal) and you have yourself a defendable location. But, always leave yourself an out.

Here is an excerpt from the http://www.survivalblog.com/ good article on home defense. I believe it is from another author but the references are there.

"Consider, on the other hand, a traditional home in North Africa. It presents a smooth, solid wall on four sides, broken only by a small and sturdy entrance onto the street. The entrance door leads through the house to an iron gate which blocks access to an inner courtyard. From the courtyard you can see an external staircase that goes up to the flat roof of the rooms surrounding the courtyard. This roof runs around the house and is bordered by a wall about chest height with a rounded edge.

Here we have an example of physical protection. The lack of external windows means an invader would have to scale a 15 foot wall to gain access. The rounded edge of the wall would prevent a grappling hook from getting a purchase and, in any event, a night watchman, stationed on the upper level, would immediately be aware of an assault. Down on the ground, the narrow door would prevent a large group of men from attacking the door altogether, while the inner gate would allow the residents to fight back against an armed attack. The upper level would also provide a firing point to defend all four quarters of the house. "

From reading that one blog about surviving the Bosnia situation, it sounded like the gangs targeted places that looked impressive. If they have 100 or 200 people in their gang, all well-armed, they will feel like they can take out a group of 10-20. So they went after houses that looked nice, and well-defended, because they knew those places would have large amounts of food, weapons, medicine, etc. So even if you do make your place well-defended, you don't want to make it look that way. It sounds like a lot of the houses there already had stone walls, etc. So it was just about piling up more rocks and debris in the windows, leaving only one entrance. Ideally hidden. So if they try to get into your house, you hear them digging at the rocks and debris. What you want to do, is make them pay for trying to get in, by killing a few of them. But they won't know what you have inside. Do they really want to lose a ton of people, for a house that might have nothing in it? Maybe you have guns, but no food. How do they know? But if you have a fancy farm house, with crops visible, animals, guys with guns walking around, etc, then you make your place look like an appealing target.

The series of posts by the lizard farmer I linked to earlier in this thread covers physical defenses, and especially where and how to place them appropriately given your own specific terrain, defensive plans/goals, and capabilities. Really good stuff and provides answers to a lot of the OP's questions.

spent half an hour looking for this and finally googled lizard farmer. Great site. Thanks

Perhaps I'm late to the party myself, but why just have "one" location?

If the SHTF to the point where armed gangs are roving the countryside, its high time to have a Plan B. Most of us reading this now probably live in soft, indefensible areas. Not a problem when civilization's in session, and honestly living in a fortress would get old real quickly.

But, when the snot hits the Kleenex , I think in the event of determined resistance its best to withdraw to a pre-arranged Site B , where you CAN either disappear, or ambush your pursuers. Remember that not every roving gang will necessarily care about your stuff. You having a different skin color can be enough to trigger a pursuit from racially motivated killers, similar to what happened in Bosnia.

__________________
The more prohibitions you have, the less virtuous people will be.
The more subsidies you have, the less self reliant people will be.
-Lao-Tzu, Tau Te Ching. 479 BCE

The 1911 may have been in wars for 100 years, but Masetro Bartolomeo Beretta was arming the world 400 years before John Browning was ever a wet dream.

Perhaps I'm late to the party myself, but why just have "one" location?........
I think in the event of determined resistance its best to withdraw to a pre-arranged Site B , where you CAN either disappear, or ambush your pursuers.

There are or were folks in Mendocino, Sonoma and Humbolt counties who live along the 101 corridor but also have places they can retreat to up in the mountains on either side. Around 8 years or so ago we'd come up with the idea of planting some food sources along our avenues of retreat: things like Jerusalem Artichokes, the odd apple tree and other perennials that could sort of hold their own in the existing ecosystems. There is precedent for this: numerous abandoned apple orchards exist up behind the redwood curtain: the trees are still alive and producing many decades after they were abandoned.

Absent an active insurgency which has institued a policy of random acts of violence, it simply informs the group whose member just got impaled that there is something worth defending (and thus worth looking for and attacking) in the area.

I seem to remember it "demoralizing(?)" our troops in Viet-Nam right into razing whole viliages in retaliation. Not exactly the type of reaction you are looking for in a protect my family scenario.

No we learned that booby traps work great at wounding people which puts a burden on the rest to care for and transport them. VERY few people died from booby-traps.

In combat, the wounding of a team mate, is extremely demoralizing. And having to recover that team mate while under fire, presents a whole new set of challenges. Punji pits are cheap, extremely effective, and easy to make and camouflage. Not sure why you are putting them down. Sure it enrages people and makes them angry, and in combat, that leads to a bad decision making process, that a prepared warrior knows how and when to take advantage of.
Heres an idea, try sneaking up on a fortified location with possible OP's and LP's. Next add the issue with having to watch every single step where you place your foot, added with the having to maintain complete situational awareness without getting caught, shot, sniped, or ankle snapped, and you see where simple punji pits are extremely effective no matter how you look at it.

__________________

Quote:

Originally Posted by Soldier415

I am naked except for seatless white chaps, a boonie hat and a tactical vest playing HALO.

Quote:

Originally Posted by oaklander

I don't like getting my butt kicked, but I would like to have it spanked by some big hairy guys!

Quote:

Originally Posted by ohsmily

I wouldn't put "mounting a weasel" past too many people on this forum.

Quote:

Originally Posted by hoffmang

Going after the NFA soon is like asking the girl you just met in the bar if she's into anal sex...
-Gene

Anyone willing to talk about what can be done physically to prepare the homestead? There have been good ideas about making it look dilapidated, And a lot of arguments about doing anything but be willing to bug out at anytime.

Also a lot of good suggestions about training, servicing weapons and vehicles, and dogs (For and against) but very little about protecting the homestead. (Aside from landmines which could be a tragedy)

What specifically can be done to improve defenses of the homestead?

Barbed wire fencing? ditch? open fields?

Send me a PM, I specialize in force protection of large size facilities. No cost, no charge to CGN as usual.

__________________

Quote:

Originally Posted by Soldier415

I am naked except for seatless white chaps, a boonie hat and a tactical vest playing HALO.

Quote:

Originally Posted by oaklander

I don't like getting my butt kicked, but I would like to have it spanked by some big hairy guys!

Quote:

Originally Posted by ohsmily

I wouldn't put "mounting a weasel" past too many people on this forum.

Quote:

Originally Posted by hoffmang

Going after the NFA soon is like asking the girl you just met in the bar if she's into anal sex...
-Gene

In combat, the wounding of a team mate, is extremely demoralizing. And having to recover that team mate while under fire, presents a whole new set of challenges. Punji pits are cheap, extremely effective, and easy to make and camouflage. Not sure why you are putting them down. Sure it enrages people and makes them angry, and in combat, that leads to a bad decision making process, that a prepared warrior knows how and when to take advantage of.
Heres an idea, try sneaking up on a fortified location with possible OP's and LP's. Next add the issue with having to watch every single step where you place your foot, added with the having to maintain complete situational awareness without getting caught, shot, sniped, or ankle snapped, and you see where simple punji pits are extremely effective no matter how you look at it.

The key word in your reply is "combat" . The problem is this discussion isn't about combat it is about maintaining security, protecting an area and avoiding, if possible, any confrontations during a SHTF situation.

The original post that I replied to was in regards to setting bobby-traps out well away from the area and how it would just draw unwanted attention and possibly even retaliation from people/groups that otherwise might have simply passed on by.

Fortified defenders have a major disadvantage, the attackers just have to wait for them to run out of water and die of dehydration or run out of food and starve to death.

Sent from my SGH-T999 using Tapatalk 2

__________________
Oppressors can tyrannize only when they achieve a standing army, an enslaved press, and a disarmed populace. -- James Madison

The Constitution shall never be construed to authorize Congress to prevent the people of the United States, who are peaceable citizens, from keeping their own arms. -- Samuel Adams, Debates and Proceedings in the Convention of the Commonwealth of Massachusetts, 86-87 (Pearce and Hale, eds., Boston, 1850)

The original thread was asking what could be done TODAY to make the old homestead defensible. There have been a great many good suggestions like "be prepared to abandon" "Make it look picked over(ie not worth attacking)" "Dogs good or bad maybe both" Any thoughts on what could be done TODAY to make things more defensible? Yes I understand trying to hold a position is a good way to get dead, but the OP was asking if there was anything that could be done. Personally, I'd like to sleep in a bed for as long as possible and have running water before bugging out, but maybe the bug out location needs to be defensible?

What would I do today, in that situation? I'd rent a backhoe, and dig out trenches, and bunkers. Dirt is great at stopping bullets, and it doesn't cost anything. If you dig the bunker into the ground, it can be hidden. You can start with just digging, and add cinder block walls later, as your budget permits. I'd want several connected locations to shoot from.

What would I do today, in that situation? I'd rent a backhoe, and dig out trenches, and bunkers. Dirt is great at stopping bullets, and it doesn't cost anything. If you dig the bunker into the ground, it can be hidden. You can start with just digging, and add cinder block walls later, as your budget permits. I'd want several connected locations to shoot from.

I was thinking the same thing but then again, I don't think I would want to give bad guys a trench to sit in protected while I am in the homestead. They would likely flank me. So would you have the wall of the trench on the side away from the house? (Giving your team shelter but exposing anyone coming down the wall?) The other side sloped away from the homestead giving little protection from fire from the homestead.

Lets try to keep is real here guys. The OP's scenario was 8 widely separated house on a several square kilometer piece of property and roughly 15 people to defend it all with.

Which means at best 2 per house and in an attack (surprise or other wise) not a lot of manning of bunkers and trenches going to be happening. There is no where near enough people to maintain any semblance of a security watch over the distances involved, to provide any advanced warning, nor even to keep a watch in each house.

Any neighbor responding towards the sound of gunfire will be leaving their own house unprotected and would most likely just get ambushed. So each house would need to stand on its own in most situations.

The best they could do would be to fortify each house, with the easiest method being to pile dirt up on the outside to the height of the windows. Though in a non-SHTF world this is also the fastest way to ruin a house as the moisture and termites have direct access. Slightly more expensive would be to disguise this as a planter that extends around the house with some type of barrier film keeping house protected.

A more involved/expensive method would be to install bullet proof panels on the inside of all exterior walls with panels that can be installed over the windows as well. Could save appreciable money by not running panels up to ceiling.

Lets try to keep is real here guys. The OP's scenario was 8 widely separated house on a several square kilometer piece of property and roughly 15 people to defend it all with.

Slightly more expensive would be to disguise this as a planter that extends around the house with some type of barrier film keeping house protected.

A more involved/expensive method would be to install bullet proof panels on the inside of all exterior walls with panels that can be installed over the windows as well. Could save appreciable money by not running panels up to ceiling.

Thank you, excellent advice, I think you have the scenario right, but that was not what the original thread was about. I think you hit the nail on the head with the planter suggestion. Really a great idea. And I think, exactly what was asked for in the original thread.

On the other idea, what kind of bullet proof panels are you suggesting, steel plate or hardwood? Or something more exotic?

Thank you, excellent advice, I think you have the scenario right, but that was not what the original thread was about. I think you hit the nail on the head with the planter suggestion. Really a great idea. And I think, exactly what was asked for in the original thread.

On the other idea, what kind of bullet proof panels are you suggesting, steel plate or hardwood? Or something more exotic?

Actually it was, the OP just took some time to provide all the details of his "theoretical" situation.

Bullet proof as in whatever you can afford or find. Steel plate would be the cheapest (though that is a VERY relative term) with some type of Kevlar composite panels being the top of the cost factor I would imagine. You would have to use a significant thickness of wood to ensure reliable protection from penetration. I would imagine at least 4" of oak, which would intrude into the living space quite a bit.

Of course if the bad guys brought a rifle in 50BMG or AP ammo then all bets are off.

OK, the OP wants to defend their house. They don't want to run away. It seems to me, that the main thing they would want, is a place to shoot from, that is bulletproof. You don't want to be inside the house shooting out of the windows, if it's only wood or stucco walls. Nor do you want to stay inside, and wait for them to come get you. Sure, you will kill the first one through the door, but they might just riddle your house full of holes, before they ever come inside. Or they might toss molotov cocktails into your house. At that point, you don't even have the chance to try to escape, because you are surrounded. My suggestion about digging out trenches or bunkers, is because it's cheap, and they could be very close to the house. I am not talking about giant, WW2 trenches. I am talking about maybe 4 very simple bunkers, around all 4 corners of the house, that would be hidden. Potentially with tunnels between them. That way you could move to different ones, depending on where the enemy is located. If you have multiple family members, they could be shooting from all 4 bunkers, providing good crossfire. I think 4 people, shooting from sheltered bunkers, would make most people want to leave, and go find an easier house to invade. Bunkers could be almost totally concealed, with bushes, flowers, etc, and could look totally normal. And as I suggested, you could get them dug out fairly cheaply, in one weekend, using a backhoe. Then over the next few months, you could reinforce them with cinder blocks, concrete, sump pumps, etc. But you are essentially using the dirt as your barrier to bullets. That is much easier and cheaper than steel plates in the walls of your house, and probably more effective. Dirt can stop even big, high-velocity rounds.

OK, the OP wants to defend their house. They don't want to run away. It seems to me, that the main thing they would want, is a place to shoot from, that is bulletproof. You don't want to be inside the house shooting out of the windows, if it's only wood or stucco walls. Nor do you want to stay inside, and wait for them to come get you. Sure, you will kill the first one through the door, but they might just riddle your house full of holes, before they ever come inside. Or they might toss molotov cocktails into your house. At that point, you don't even have the chance to try to escape, because you are surrounded. My suggestion about digging out trenches or bunkers, is because it's cheap, and they could be very close to the house. I am not talking about giant, WW2 trenches. I am talking about maybe 4 very simple bunkers, around all 4 corners of the house, that would be hidden. Potentially with tunnels between them. That way you could move to different ones, depending on where the enemy is located. If you have multiple family members, they could be shooting from all 4 bunkers, providing good crossfire. I think 4 people, shooting from sheltered bunkers, would make most people want to leave, and go find an easier house to invade. Bunkers could be almost totally concealed, with bushes, flowers, etc, and could look totally normal. And as I suggested, you could get them dug out fairly cheaply, in one weekend, using a backhoe. Then over the next few months, you could reinforce them with cinder blocks, concrete, sump pumps, etc. But you are essentially using the dirt as your barrier to bullets. That is much easier and cheaper than steel plates in the walls of your house, and probably more effective. Dirt can stop even big, high-velocity rounds.

The problem is that unlike a military unit (or even possibly a larger civilian group) with enough people to provide guards 24/7 in those bunkers, the OP stated there were roughly TWO people able to defend each house in his area of concern. Such numbers are totally incapable of giving any advance warning of anything but the most clumsy daytime attacks. So absent a watch the most likely scenarios would be an ambush attack in the early morning when people are just getting started on the day and stepping outside or possibly a late night assault when people are asleep. In either, there would be no time to man any bunkers and the house itself would need to be the defensive position. Hence my suggestion to harden it.

The steel plate was just one possible (albeit expensive) way to reinforce the house for this and the other end of the spectrum was the dirt filled planters (3' high and 3' deep?) completely surrounding the house. The planters could even be filled part way up with reinforced concrete to harden them even more. Which would also act as a barrier to anyone trying to crash a vehicle through a wall to gain access.

If you want to defend your home there are many easy ways to do it without digging trenches. Common plastic trash cans filled with sand will stop almost any bullet. Stack these in front of firing positions in your home and in the second story and you now hold the high ground. They cannot see you and you hold a great defensive position. It doesn't take very many trash cans filled with sand to turn you home into a fortified position. Remember when the shooting starts the neighbors are coming to help because they know they are next. Look up flanking in your acme survival book.

My home, surrounded by vineyards and a 9 foot deer fence all the way around will make it slow going and deadly for anyone to get close to the house. You are not going to get inside the fence without the dogs alerting us.

Water and food in not a issue, just the people who are trying to take it from us.

The very thought of well armed bands of mobile thugs is pretty ludicrous. Driving around up here like that will get you killed in short order. Gee look honey there goes 8 trucks of armed men, I wonder where they are going. Plain and simple they are going to get attacked and killed. Remember in rural settings they will have to bring everything with them. They lose a truck and they lose those men and all those supplies. Think of the road to Bagdad and the gantlet the Marines had to face. Now try that without air cover and M1 tanks and Bradley's. Try it in a Toyota pickup. I wonder how a mini van full of bad guys holds up to a IED. I wonder how a bunch of rednecks hiding in the rocks and behind trees would fare against a bunch of thugs in trucks, its called a slaughter hole.

Get to know your neighbors, there is strength in numbers. I go to church with mine.

Yeah, I suspect that the OP's situation would change from 1-2 people in each house in his current situation, to everyone consolidating in a SHTF situation. I know that's what I would do. Get all the neighbors and supplies into one main location, so you can set up guard shifts, consolidate supplies, etc.

The sand in trash cans is a pretty good idea. It's also something you could put together very quickly, even after SHTF. Even using just your existing trash cans, and the dirt from your backyard... Ideally you might have some extra cans on hand, for just that purpose.

WoW some great advice. I like the idea about the 4 corners of the house with tunnells between. An IED to stop the thugs, the trash cans full of sand. Even Kevin's suggestion of the 9' deer fences.

Having a high ground OP/LP with some kind of exit strategy for a sniper to flank and provide support to the main group is awesome.

As far as 8 trucks full of armed men go, well that would be our family on their way to the bug out location. So don't be hunting us down, we are really just good folks looking to be safe and we will be loaded for a party with an empty dance card. So how do I know that another 8 trucks full of armed men and women is not another family heading for the hills? and would I want to give away my location until I have a good idea of their intentions?

My fence is to keep deer and critters out of my vineyards and my livestock out of them also. Way too expensive for security.

I would think if the SHTF that there will be a very small window where travel will be safe for anyone. A group of trucks with armed men will taken a dim view of up here particularity if there are not women and children present. I would hate to be in the second group of thugs after the first tried to pillage.

For those of you depending on dogs as part of your security system, unless they have been trained to ONLY eat what comes directly from you and/or only on your command then they are rather easily defeated with some meat and poison.

I have an older book on training dogs that lays out how this can be accomplished, though it probably isn't PC anymore.

Lets see, people are going to feed dogs poison with food and people are starving, hence the reason for a attack. Hey honey, there is someone outside the fence trying to feed the dogs. What fantasy world do people live in.

My dogs bark at everyone that ain't family. They are particularity nasty when in comes to strangers and the in-laws. The latter may be my fault.

Lets see, people are going to feed dogs poison with food and people are starving, hence the reason for a attack. Hey honey, there is someone outside the fence trying to feed the dogs. What fantasy world do people live in.

My dogs bark at everyone that ain't family. They are particularity nasty when in comes to strangers and the in-laws. The latter may be my fault.

If coyotes can't sneak up on my dogs, no person is.

I never said they had to "sneak up" or even come in daylight. You might hear them but all they gotta do is get the poison over your fence and run away. The dogs will eat it later. Or would you go out and do a full perimeter sweep at zero-dark-thirty as the dogs are still barking to find it?

Obviously not something a loose starving mob would employ but even a semi-organized group would have some food to spare for this since they are planning on resupplying at your house in the near future.

If you aren't actually trying to kill them (attrition) then what's the point of continually risking injury/capture/death just to harass them? So they go away and you can return to a location that you still can't defend? Plus you might just get them mad enough to come looking for your new base of operations.
Actually the comment wasn't aimed at anyone in particular, just at the unrealistic expectations that a lot of people seem to have on here.

Though if you think video games are what you need then go for it but personally I prefer to depend on my real life training from the Marines that taught me to make valid assessments of the viability of a course of action, rather then a fantasy game with a reset button and cheat codes.

If at all possible, try using "natural" terrain features to funnel any incoming forces into a predetermined area that willl give your group the best possible fields of fire toward them. I say natural in that any obstacles in their way should be made from, or be made to look like naturally occuring features so that in a passing glance, it all looks like undefended wilderness. In a dry desert environment, plants with sharp spines like cactus and yucca will keep foot traffic funneled in the direction you want them to go in. You just need to plant or relocate enough of it to create large areas of terrain not friendly to foot traffic. Amidst the plants you could even camoflage some steel "Czech Hedgehogs" to prevent passage by large off road vehicles.

Close to the house, you may even want the access road to gradually slope downward into a depression over the course of 100 yards or so until it gets deep enough near the house to prevent vehicles or people from getting out of it without either proceeding forward or backwards down the road. At the end of this road should be a gun pit heavily armored with steel and well camoflaged that allows a good field of fire down into the road. This would allow heavily concentrated fire into the choke point without much risk of injury from return fire. Being essentially stuck in a ditch aligned right into a pill box would leave any attacking force with only their vehicles for cover, which could quickly be immobilized and rendered useless. Some Molatov cocktails tossed in from the flanks could pretty much take the fight out of anyone who is left.