Through the Thatcher Major, years, millions of British people were made poor as a matter of policy, while others got rich as a matter of policy.

Blair and Brown embraced Thatcherism due to the change in the British, and now Milliband wants to change Labour again due to a changed Britain.

I personally long for a political party that sticks to it's core values, that has conviction, that does not change itself to suit a greedy selfish uncaring British populas who'se only thought is "self". In my view this "self" is mainly among the British middle classes.

Thatcher changed Britain for the worse, and now we are reaping through this dreadful coalition, what has been sown.

The Labour Party decided it wanted power more than it wanted Members (or, at least, the gang who had seized power did). This was a result, don't let's ever forget, of the treachery of (especially) Shirley Williams, the key figure in producing the present class-war boss-class government. People then left that party, since they had no voice in it any more. Possibly that was a mistake, but can you expect an honest politics without party democracy?

The gang of four who broke away from the Labour party, Williams, Owen, Jenkins and the other one's names escape me, the founders of the democratic party, later to join forces with the Liberal party. Old Labour policy of all for one and one for all, wasn't good enough, so one set of losers joined up with another set of losers. Now the only way for that lot to attain any political power was to unite with a bunch of tossers. Thatcher ruined Britain, selling anything of value, and closing down industries, like Coal, Steel, and Shipbuilding, now, Cameron and his puppet Clegg, are going to finish of what Maggie never got the chance to. Starting with the NHS, and before they are done, Monaco will have a bigger Army than we do, once Britain ruled the waves, we can't rule a ripple now.

Yes - and the 'gang of four' and their chums, having sabotaged the election, had the brass neck to call the Labour Manifesto a long suicide note. Thatcher and her even nastier political descendants can get away with it because the Labour Party was murdered by careerists, let's face it.

No matter how true, it's water under the bridge.The Tory-led Coalition has now dug a hole for itself so deep that they may never be seen again, deo volente but it is now time for an invigorated Labour opposition to make Leadership noises.

oftenwrong wrote:No matter how true, it's water under the bridge.The Tory-led Coalition has now dug a hole for itself so deep that they may never be seen again, deo volente but it is now time for an invigorated Labour opposition to make Leadership noises.

oftenwrong wrote:No matter how true, it's water under the bridge.The Tory-led Coalition has now dug a hole for itself so deep that they may never be seen again, deo volente but it is now time for an invigorated Labour opposition to make Leadership noises.

Fine. The problem is, how will you make 'em when they are busy triangulating and keeping the Noise Machine sweet. The trouble with historical water is that the swine just stays under the bridge until we understand why it won't move, and that involves some historical thought, surely?

Last edited by Penderyn on Mon Dec 12, 2011 9:39 pm; edited 1 time in total

Once upon a time the British Conservative Party had a large degree of decency about it. It retained this relative decency as late as the Edward Heath years. Then came Thatcher, who transformed the Party into a very different animal She was partially able to get away with her excesses by the almost equal and opposite excesses of the then trade union movement, which gave her the justification she so craved.

Today we still have those Thatcher attitudes at the root of the Tory Party- demonstrated in a wholly unjustified manner by those who are hopelessly addicted to the blood-lust which their heroine so enjoyed, and perpetuated by the constant wheeling-out of excuses in the form of the need to defend the nation against imagined 'enemies' such as public servants and the (now largely toothless) trade unions - not to mention the EU.

Thatcher was a hateful individual. She has spawned a continuing supply of equally hateful individuals. Let's hope that one day a new type of Tory Party will emerge to replace the repulsive array of Thatcher-worshipping spitemongers who currently typify it from top to bottom...

To my mind the very fact that we should even talk about Thatcher's funeral arrangements gives it all a prominence it doesn't really warrant. I couldn't care what is done, although it seems to make as much sense to give her a State Funeral as to do so for the Yorkshire Ripper - although he did hurt fewer people...

Phil Hornby wrote:To my mind the very fact that we should even talk about Thatcher's funeral arrangements gives it all a prominence it doesn't really warrant. I couldn't care what is done, although it seems to make as much sense to give her a State Funeral as to do so for the Yorkshire Ripper - although he did hurt fewer people...

Why should Thatcher be given a State funeral, when she did not believe in the role of the State ?

Strangely enough she believed that the state interfered too much and it was individuals that made a society works not control from above. As usual the many left leaning fools still believe that the state should control everything and individuality needs to be squashed. If you haven't worked out by now that individuality counts may I suggest you look at what the previous control freaks left us and how quiet they are at the moment as they have no idea how to get us out of their mess.

Yes lets give the greatest post war PM a state funeral, unfortunately the inept fools that followed her lost their way.

Strangely enough she believed that the state interfered too much and it was individuals that made a society works not control from above

tlttf. Strangely enough, you're wrong. Thatcher was the most centralising PM in modern times. She emasculated local government, transferring many of its powers to Whitehall, and abolished a number of councils that she didn't like. That included the GLC, which left London as the only major city in the Western world without its own council. Thatcher also interfered in education by imposing the strait-jacket of the National Curriculum on schools.

When Churchill was given a state funeral it wasn't controversial. At least as many people hate Thatcher as like her, and any attempt to give her a state funeral would cause civil unrest and disruption.

Generaly, Margaret Thatcher was very bad for Britain, the Poll Tax was one of the worst pieces of legislation ever introduced in this country, and it led to her downfall, though I must confess there were some issues on which I agreed with Thatcher.

FALKLAND ISLANDS - I am afraid that I agreed totaly with Thatcher here, and I can vividly remember Michael Foot suggesting more and more time, more diplomacy, more discussions and negotiations, unfortunately you do not negotiate with someone who just stole your land and property.

COUNCIL HOUSE SALES - Very controversial I know, but at the end of the day this did give the opportunity for many thousands of ordinary people to own their own property, most of whom would not ordinarily have been able to afford to do so.

The big big mistake was not to build one new home to rent for every home which was sold, there must be social housing to rent and the stocks should be replenished / replaced.

UNIONS - As a supporter of both the Labour Party and the trade union movement, I can never forgive the unions for helping Thatcher come to power in 1979, it was they more than anyone who gave the Conservatives the boost into power after the Winter of Discontent.

The trade union movement was very sick in the 1970s, greed was running through its veins, millitants were everywhere, any excuse for a strike and a day off work, the rules meant that British companies were uncompetetive and bosses hands were tied - sorry to say it, but Thatcher put things right.

"witchfinder":-Generaly, Margaret Thatcher was very bad for Britain, the Poll Tax was one of the worst pieces of legislation ever introduced in this country, and it led to her downfall, though I must confess there were some issues on which I agreed with Thatcher.

FALKLAND ISLANDS - I am afraid that I agreed totaly with Thatcher here, and I can vividly remember Michael Foot suggesting more and more time, more diplomacy, more discussions and negotiations, unfortunately you do not negotiate with someone who just stole your land and property.

COUNCIL HOUSE SALES - Very controversial I know, but at the end of the day this did give the opportunity for many thousands of ordinary people to own their own property, most of whom would not ordinarily have been able to afford to do so.

The big big mistake was not to build one new home to rent for every home which was sold, there must be social housing to rent and the stocks should be replenished / replaced.

UNIONS - As a supporter of both the Labour Party and the trade union movement, I can never forgive the unions for helping Thatcher come to power in 1979, it was they more than anyone who gave the Conservatives the boost into power after the Winter of Discontent.

The trade union movement was very sick in the 1970s, greed was running through its veins, millitants were everywhere, any excuse for a strike and a day off work, the rules meant that British companies were uncompetetive and bosses hands were tied - sorry to say it, but Thatcher put things right.

I do not agree with anything you say. The bottom line is that Thatcher was the most evil Prime Minister Britain has ever had.

The people she made poor as an act of deliberate policy, needed the Unions more than ever during her terrible years in office.

Also I never believed in council house sales. Council houses were built for people who could not afford to buy, of which there many always.

The poll tax, is the council tax, it never went. Both were and are, an unjust form of tax, not being based on ability to pay.

Thatcher threw millions on the dole as an inflationary tool, because when people are on the dole, they cannot strike, and this is why builders were not put to work building more council houses during her "right to buy".

Thatcher introduced, what still remains with us. A short term, low waged, insecure, profit lead work base.

Over the years I have learned that Thatcher's core supporters are working class people who bought their council houses, and who see Thatcher as their savour.

We are a nation now struggling to pay the bills of the Utilities that she privatised to make a fast buck for share holders profits and bosses salaries.

And I will never ever forgive Thatcher for breaking the State pensions link with male average earnings set in place in 1974 under Harold Wilson and Barbara Castle's then traditional Labour Government.

Ivanhoe - Why do you think it was that Labour were out of office for 18 long years ? - four consecutive wins from 1979 until 1992 for the Conservatives, it was because through most of that period Labour were unelectable, no one trusted them.

The Labour Party of the 1970s were transformed by a succession of leaders from Neil Kinnock through to Tony Blair who between them made Labour electable again.

The working classes of this country have aspirations, yes I absolutely agree that there must be social housing to rent for those that need them, but then theres the next step upwards, from renting to owning, shouldent that choice be widened to give that opportunity to people who would not normaly or usualy be able to make that step.

The worst period in modern British history was the miners strikes of the 1980s, and allthough I never was a fan of Scargill or the NUM, we came close to civil war due to Thatchers use of the police to physicly smash workers who were just fighting for their jobs and livelyhood.

I am not a Conservative, I detest the Conservative ideology and all it stands for, but I never voted Labour throughout the 1980s because I am not a supporter of millitancy or of the country benn run and held to ransome by undemocratic power mad union leaders.

I am a Social Democrat, I believe in capitalism but I support social justice and fairness, this is why I could never be a Conservative because fairness is not in the Conservative dictionary.

The standard Tory mantra has always been, "We have too much government." The theme was carried continuously by Ted Heath, continued by that female PM and survives in repeated calls now for "less red tape".

What it means is that businessmen would like to be free to send children up chimneys if that were the only way to make decent profits.

oftenwrong wrote:The standard Tory mantra has always been, "We have too much government." The theme was carried continuously by Ted Heath, continued by that female PM and survives in repeated calls now for "less red tape".

What it means is that businessmen would like to be free to send children up chimneys if that were the only way to make decent profits.

witchfinder wrote:Ivanhoe - Why do you think it was that Labour were out of office for 18 long years ? - four consecutive wins from 1979 until 1992 for the Conservatives, it was because through most of that period Labour were unelectable, no one trusted them.

The Labour Party of the 1970s were transformed by a succession of leaders from Neil Kinnock through to Tony Blair who between them made Labour electable again.

The working classes of this country have aspirations, yes I absolutely agree that there must be social housing to rent for those that need them, but then theres the next step upwards, from renting to owning, shouldent that choice be widened to give that opportunity to people who would not normaly or usualy be able to make that step.

The worst period in modern British history was the miners strikes of the 1980s, and allthough I never was a fan of Scargill or the NUM, we came close to civil war due to Thatchers use of the police to physicly smash workers who were just fighting for their jobs and livelyhood.

I am not a Conservative, I detest the Conservative ideology and all it stands for, but I never voted Labour throughout the 1980s because I am not a supporter of millitancy or of the country benn run and held to ransome by undemocratic power mad union leaders.

I am a Social Democrat, I believe in capitalism but I support social justice and fairness, this is why I could never be a Conservative because fairness is not in the Conservative dictionary.

I do wish some people would stop confusing Conservatism, with right wing Toryism.

I myself am a "traditional" Labour supporter and activist because I believe in Labour's core valuers, but I withdrew my membership when Blair took Labour to the right.

By todays political standards, I myself could be refered to as a small "c" Conservative, because Heath and McMillan before him, were both decent one nation left wing Conservatives. They were not right wing Tory's. There is a vital difference.

I've been saying for some time that we are drifting into a form of velvet glove fascism, for three reasons:-

1. The electoral stitch-up. Hitler changed the rules so that the largest party, the Nazis, had most of the seats in the Reichstag. Cameron changed the rules so that his 47% of MPs can't be voted out of power by fewer than 55% of MPs - work that out. He is also busily redrawing constituency boundaries as part of the biggest piece of gerrymandering since before 1832, having already packed the House of Lords with dozens of his sycophants.

2. The propaganda. It was so creepy how every Cabinet minister given a radio or television interview after this shower came to power repeated, like automotons, the lie that Gordon Brown and Labour created the global credit crunch. Cameron must be the biggest liar ever to hold the office of PM, and he works on the Nazi mantra that if you tell a lie often enough, most people will believe it.

3. The demonisation of particular groups. Hitler had his Jews and gypsies, while Cameron has demonised benefit claimants, the disabled, trade unionists, striking dinner ladies and the entire public sector. Look at the remarks which his oily sidekick Gove made about teachers just before the recent strike and see how Goebbels would have been proud of him.

I do so love to see the British sense of fair play evidenced -as above. This is to be applauded when a call for boiling in oil whilst being forced to read the Daily Mirror would have been more than amply justified...

Thatcher is a hero, tranforming our country into a leading economic nation instead of the 'Sick man of Europe' that Labour turned us into during the late 70's.Sickchip and Phil...I wont change your mind and you wont change mine, but winning 3 elections says that the British people agreed with me

Agreed Ivan.....Even I as a Tory wanted Blair to win the election in 97, he showed so much promise and the Tories had got complacent and scandalous. Unfortunately he went the same way towards the end of his premiership and like the tories after Thatcher, Labour had nobody strong enough the take over the reins

blueturando wrote:Thatcher is a hero, tranforming our country into a leading economic nation instead of the 'Sick man of Europe' that Labour turned us into during the late 70's.Sickchip and Phil...I wont change your mind and you wont change mine, but winning 3 elections says that the British people agreed with me

Winning 3 general elections says that the British are as thick as two shorty planks.

Because now the British Tory voter and /or Thatcher supporter, is having to pay the extortionate Utility bills care of their privatisation by Thatcher in the 80s and 90's, and they are also suffering continued waitings lists in the Hostpitals as Thatcher's privastisation takes hold. And our elderly people still suffer the diminished State pension that Thatcher initiated when she broke the State pensions link with make average earningsd in 1980.

I think what bluey means is that her Ladyship is a hero to many of those who are better off and like nothing better than to see the lower classes being given the good ongoing kicking the Tories so believe they warrant - simply for being poor!

Life is customarily grand for the Tory hordes - I'm alright jack ,while the 'have-littles' are subsidising the 'have-lots'. There's 'heroic' for you....

Last edited by Phil Hornby on Sun Dec 18, 2011 7:42 pm; edited 1 time in total

Phil....Back in 79 I was a 12 year old lad living on a council estate, living in a one parent household and going to a less than usefull local comprehensive....Better off (financially) we were certainly not

I do so love to see the British sense of fair play evidenced -as above. This is to be applauded when a call for boiling in oil whilst being forced to read the Daily Mirror would have been more than amply justified...

Most enjoyable and fairly apt!!

Read up please on The Hermitage, (It's where Mary Queen of Scots went to see Bothwell.) Before her time, the Lord of the Manor was not too pleased that a neighbour would not sell land that said Lord coveted much!!! So the small landowner was laid out in a srcophagus and had boiling lead poured over him!! End of dispute apparently! The death mask is in the museum in Carlisle!