We are so quick to condemn anyone over there if they do something to a soldier yet noting posted on this yet?

BBC wrote:

Afghans 'out of patience' after Kandahar massacre

Afghans "have run out of patience" with foreign troops, the country's MPs have warned, after a US soldier killed 16 Afghan civilians.

The strongly worded resolution came as US officials issued an alert, fearing reprisals after the Kandahar rampage. Nine children were among those killed.

Afghan President Hamid Karzai said the act was "unforgivable". Taliban militants have vowed revenge.

The soldier is being questioned, and Nato has promised to deliver justice.

The killings could further fuel calls for a more rapid withdrawal of US troops from Afghanistan.

Anti-US sentiment is already high after soldiers burned some copies of the Koran at a Nato base in Kabul last month.

US officials have repeatedly apologised for the Koran incident, which sparked a series of protests and attacks that killed at least 30 people and six US troops.

Ties tested

The soldier, believed to be a staff sergeant, walked off his base in Kandahar in the early hours of Sunday.

Locals say he broke into three homes in the villages of Alkozai and Najeeban, about 500m from the base.

Eleven people were shot dead at one house in Najeeban, and some of their bodies had been set alight.

At least three of the child victims are reported to have been killed by a single shot to the head.

The soldier returned to his base after the shootings and apparently turned himself in to military authorities.

His motives are unclear, but there is speculation that he might have been drunk or had suffered a mental breakdown. Officers are worried that the attack might have been planned.

The detained soldier has not been identified, but the Associated Press news agency quoted US officials as saying he was from Joint Base Lewis-McChord in Washington state, 38 years old and married with two children.

The AP reports said he had served three tours in Iraq and was on his first deployment in Afghanistan.

"This is an assassination, an intentional killing of innocent civilians and cannot be forgiven,'' Mr Karzai said in a statement.

US President Barack Obama phoned Mr Karzai on Sunday to express condolences over the "tragic and shocking" incident.

'Public trial'

In its resolution, the lower house of the Afghan parliament said Afghans had "run out of patience with the arbitrary actions of foreign forces".

"We seriously demand and expect that the government of the United States punish the culprits and try them in a public trial before the people of Afghanistan."

The call came despite an Afghan agreement with Nato for foreign soldiers to be tried in their own countries.

The BBC's Bilal Sarwary in Kabul says the incident has damaged already fragile relations between Kabul and Washington.

The Taliban is using the shooting as a propaganda victory, placing Mr Karzai in a difficult position, he says.

Angry tribal elders are now demanding an immediate end to US night raids on Afghan homes.

Meanwhile, US personnel in Afghanistan were warned of possible reprisal attacks.

Afghan officials fear there will be violent demonstrations and have deployed extra police and troops around Kandahar.

However, a local elder told the BBC there would be no protests, as long as the soldier was put on trial.

Sources close to Mr Karzai say the murders will complicate negotiations on a strategic agreement between the two countries that could keep US troops in the country beyond 2014.

A recent poll by ABC News and the Washington Post found 60% of Americans believe the war in Afghanistan is not worth its costs. Nearly the same number advocated an early US pullout from the country.

We are so quick to condemn anyone over there if they do something to a soldier yet noting posted on this yet?

Could you clarify this please?

I want to make sure I understand you correctly before I respond.

_________________Acts 4:13, 1 Cor. 2:1-5, Rom. 12:1-2

March 12th, 2012, 6:10 pm

njroar

QB Coach - Brian Callahan

Joined: September 25th, 2007, 3:20 amPosts: 3229

Re: Kandahar massacre

It was an idiotic soldier. It happens. He should be tried and spend the rest of his life doing hard labor in Levinworth or be put to death.

I would never agree to let him be tried in Islam court like they're asking though. A U.S. citizen and member of the military doesn't get to be tried under Sharia Law. That's just what we'd need... video of a soldier being stoned to make things better...

March 12th, 2012, 6:21 pm

Pablo

RIP Killer

Joined: August 6th, 2004, 9:21 amPosts: 9967Location: Dallas

Re: Kandahar massacre

WarEr4Christ wrote:

We are so quick to condemn anyone over there if they do something to a soldier yet noting posted on this yet?

Could you clarify this please?

I want to make sure I understand you correctly before I respond.

Sure I was talking about perspective. When we burn Korans over there, we condemn them for any retailiation against soldiers. In fact, we tend to label Muslims as violent terrorist. We tend not to look into the mirror and try to understand how they view us.

There was a single response to this thread all do, imagine all the responses if the tables were reversed.

Point is, this was an act of an individual - not a nation or faith - we need to remember that when the shoe is on the other foot rather than label all of them based on the actions of a few individuals.

I did find it interesting how this news wasn't posted when I logged onto the board and how nobody responded to this post all day. We are blind to our own sins and so quick to point out those of others. I remember a post the other day, I think it was yours, touting all the great work our military had done in this country. I would dare say that is not their perspective.

The latest Quran burning over here, the one that resulted in the recent protests, wasn't even the fault of soldiers. Third Country Nationals (TCN's) who work on the base that it happened at were cleaning out a building. Some "old books" got mixed in with the trash. The trash over here is burned. Some local nationals, Afghans, that work on the base were going through the burn pile and found remnants of the Qurans. The end result? Everyone assumes the Soldiers burned the Qurans on purpose. Locals start protesting. The Taliban starts getting people spun up because we don't appreciate their culture. IED incidents increase.

This latest guy was obviously unstable. Sneaking off base in civilian clothes? I don't even know how you get out the gate like that. This guy is not the norm. I've spent over 15 months of my life over here. And I'm not done yet. I am in no way, shape or form a war monger. I do, however, understand the job that has to be done over here. Not saying that we need to stay over here indefinitely until the Taliban is gone forever. We need to finish training the Afghan Army and Police to be equipped to handle the situation when we do leave. They are getting closer. Believe me, I see their increased role every day. But this mission isn't going to be finished tomorrow.

March 13th, 2012, 2:21 am

WarEr4Christ

QB Coach - Brian Callahan

Joined: October 26th, 2005, 11:48 pmPosts: 3056Location: Elkhart, In.

Re: Kandahar massacre

Pablo, and Blue,

Have either of you spent time in the service of your country? Have either of you deployed to parts unknown, in the service of your country? If the answer to both questions is no, then this is not an issue with which you can have an honest opinion on. The reason being is that you are making assumptions based upon your understanding from OUTSIDE the fence.

If you have never offered up your lives in the service of others then you can not understand the pressure, especially in a combat environment, put on our troops. This is only exacerbated by restrictions put on our troops in an effort to be politically correct. The fact is, the enemy has all the advantages in these situations, because he has the world press to plead his case. But what you don't see is what the common boots on the ground soldier is going through on a daily basis.

There is a perpetual frustration built up when you are sent out to an environment on a daily basis knowing that you can't fully engage an enemy that you know is hiding within the populace. You KNOW what they look like, you can see it in their eyes, and yet because he isn't carrying a weapon yelling "death to America", you aren't allowed to engage.

Afghanistan is becoming Vietnam, because we are NOT allowed to fight, we are occupying and placating the enemy only. This develops a complacency, and frustration where by as a Soldier on the ground you are just trying to survive until your tour is over. If that means that the soldier doesn't poke his head out of the base then so be it, that's what he does, meanwhile the enemy has all the advantage. And for the times that our troops are engaged, it is generally with weapons that we can't fully fight against. IED's are the biggest part, or a sneak attack which one or two of our troops are killed by a friendly. Take a look at the My Lai incident of Vietnam, the soldiers "lost it" and devastated a whole village, much to their shame. This is very similar to that, but is a direct result of combat policy. But having served myself, I understand the anger, frustration, futility, of doing the same routine over an over with no change. In fact, isn't that the definition of insanity, "doing the same thing over and over, expecting different results?"

Maybe Buell can add more information about how limited/or not, American responses are to combat.

Please don't walk down this road, it's devisive, and stirs up anger. Just look at Blues post with the Link, to his point we're the warmongers, because we've encapsulated a known threat. Come on fellas, you're better than that. Our troops are doing a stellar job under extremely difficult situations, while dealing with a CinC who does not understand nor appreciate what they do. The Liberals never really have since Kennedy, and have a disdain for the military as a general rule.

_________________Acts 4:13, 1 Cor. 2:1-5, Rom. 12:1-2

March 13th, 2012, 8:05 am

WarEr4Christ

QB Coach - Brian Callahan

Joined: October 26th, 2005, 11:48 pmPosts: 3056Location: Elkhart, In.

Re: Kandahar massacre

Pablo:

There are a couple of things to keep in mind for this area as well. Education is key!!! The illiteracy rate is supposed to be around 80% and the only education offered was at the "schools". The boys would be taken to the schools where they were taught the Qaran, and memorized the text as they were taught. Having said that, if you have a Mullah who is Osamaesque and he decides to teach that martyrdom is the way to paradise, how is someone who can't read or write other than what they've been taught going to know any better?

Their point of view, and beliefs are skewed by those in power and control, and so America is seen as a great evil based upon what they've been taught.

This is actually in keeping with what we see in our own educational system by failed programs and laws that protect bad teachers. We're not educating our own children to the extent we used to. It is my personal belief that a dumb society is a society easily controlled. How many times have y'all talked about how the media sways the uninformed public more often than not? That's a case in point right there, because people aren't going to make the effort to find out. Path of least resistance and all.

America has gone a long way in trying to help Afghanis, but all we are seeing is the Liberal Media's point of view, which is hell bent on defaming us. But I wonder if you could talk to Billy Afghan who has experienced the good that we've done, what his opinion would be without having to fear reprisal.

I believe what is missing with this conflict is the card system that put the high value targets on a deck of cards. Send our Spec Ops people to get Mullah Moammar, who ran like a girl from Kandahar. Start taking out the Taliban, and make it VERY dangerous for their leadership to breath, and you'll see how quiet they become. They've been embolden by the surrender mentality of this current American Regime, and now we are reaping the whirlwind because of their pacifist, pussified mentality.

_________________Acts 4:13, 1 Cor. 2:1-5, Rom. 12:1-2

March 13th, 2012, 9:51 am

Pablo

RIP Killer

Joined: August 6th, 2004, 9:21 amPosts: 9967Location: Dallas

Re: Kandahar massacre

I have never been in the service, nor am I condeming the military in anyway. As I pointed out, this was the act of an individual - not to be used to stereotype the entire military or our country.

That said, have you ever lived in as a citizen of a country that was occupied by another nations military? Imagine if the Russians had a military presence here and one of their soldiers committed an act like this against innocent civilians - most of them children. Then imagine you couldn't even have a trail and convict him based on your own nations laws because the Russians took legal precedence. There would be an uproar, rightfully so.

I'm not sure how I am trying to be "devisive" or stir up anger? If simply pointing out how others might view us and looking at another perspective does that, then that speaks volumes about us. In fact, I'm trying to do the exact opposite - help both sides understand each other. Help both sides not hold entire nations or groups accountable for the actions of a few warped individuals. I'm not painting with a broad brush, that is very dangerous, and I feel that is continually done towards other countries - as you said we should be "better than that".

Pablo: You made the comment as to how you were suprised that no one had commented on what had happend in Kandahar.... My initial reading was supportive of your response, and then when I looked at it again, I was angered, and then confused because I wasn't sure what you were trying to say. That is why I asked for clarification.... This is where I saw it as being devisive, based upon my own gut feelings as I read your initial post.

To your point about an occupying force, you are correct, and in my opinion this has more to do with the current policy of how we are to conduct operations over there. I CAN NOT ACCURATELY STATE OUR MISSION, as I am not on the ground in Afghanistan, nor have I been.But you are correct in that our troops are no longer a combat force that is seeking to engage the Taliban/Al Qaeda, and destroy them. We've been pulled back and are "seemingly" operating as a police force than a combat force. Again, the enemy has the upperhand, because they are allowed to operate at will, while I imagine our forces have a very restricted set of rules by which they can engage the enemy.

Take a look at how the Somali pirates are being handled. Our helicopters are/were catching their pirates in action, but because they throw their weapons overboard before our boats can catch them, we can't fully detain them. It's been documented on film many times, but instead of sinking the craft and making the pirates pay the ulitmate price for their actions, we've restricted our ability to respond by going soft. This plays into what I was saying.

Imagine yourself as a American Soldier taken away from your family and loved ones for a period of time. You've been placed in a hostile environment, where you are subject to snipers, ied, friendly fire, and you are NOT allowed to respond until "fired upon." You watch your buddies die to the same things above, but there is no enemy that will stand and fight. They hide behind women and children, knowing that you can't engage because of your politically correct method of operation. So instead of being a fighting forcer, you are now a target with a gun. That frustration continues to build and build with no outlet, until one day a man loses his mind, or gets drunk and snaps. Combat Stress is NO JOKE, and is very dangerous. Many wives and families are dealing with the results of it here in the States, because we are not effectively decompressing our troops upon their return.

To Blues point, the best scenario is to run away, and pull all of our troops home, but that is more deadly in the long run, because ultimately the best scenario is push through to complete victory. This costs lives and damages, but in the end the enemy is dead, and you are able to turn the country over to a stabilized government. Karzai is a talking head, who's worried about his seat after we depart. He is more vocal now because he's worried the talibs will take his head when we depart in retreat. They'll probably take it anyway, but I believe our best bet is to pursue the enemy wherever he's at, close with him, kill him, and allow our service organizations to build a better in it's place.

Stop dishing out money and start issuing lead to the enemy. Plain and simple, but the ostriches amongst us would rather we put our heads in the sand and act like nothing is going on, and no one hates us for who we are and what we stand for.

I would like to remind Ron Paul and Blue of a saying by one of America's most beloved Generals.

"Our country won't go on forever, if we stay soft as we are now. There won't be any America because some foreign soldiery will invade us and take our women and breed a hardier race!" General Lewis B. "Chesty" Puller

_________________Acts 4:13, 1 Cor. 2:1-5, Rom. 12:1-2

March 13th, 2012, 11:05 am

buell17

Afghan Allstar

Joined: January 9th, 2006, 1:16 pmPosts: 564Location: San Diego, CA

Re: Kandahar massacre

Warer:Our current mission is to train and mentor the Afghan National Security Forces (Army and Police) and prepare to transition tactical command to them.

As for engaging the enemy, it is very difficult. You have to have Positive ID. So if you're fired upon from a building, and you can't see the guy firing at you, you are not allowed to fire back, because you don't know what/who else is in the building. I read reports almost daily of our guys being engaged with small arms, but not being able to return fire because they couldn't establish PID.

March 13th, 2012, 2:08 pm

WarEr4Christ

QB Coach - Brian Callahan

Joined: October 26th, 2005, 11:48 pmPosts: 3056Location: Elkhart, In.

Re: Kandahar massacre

Thus confirming my point that as a service member on the ground, you are expected to "take the high road" by not endanger possible civilians. I believe this is the right thing to do, but I can completely understand the temptation to snap and go on the offensive in light of this info.

_________________Acts 4:13, 1 Cor. 2:1-5, Rom. 12:1-2

March 13th, 2012, 6:15 pm

njroar

QB Coach - Brian Callahan

Joined: September 25th, 2007, 3:20 amPosts: 3229

Re: Kandahar massacre

The guy also had a brain injury in 2010, so could explain why he snapped.

March 13th, 2012, 6:23 pm

Blueskies

QB Coach - Brian Callahan

Joined: September 13th, 2007, 12:43 pmPosts: 3101

Re: Kandahar massacre

And he was from a base that produced quite a few nutjobs.

How many terrorists did this guy create? Afghanistan is Vietnam II, withdraw immediately it is doing us nothing but harm.

March 13th, 2012, 11:40 pm

Murtyle

Mr. Irrelevant

Joined: April 16th, 2005, 3:23 pmPosts: 941Location: Hollywood, FL

Re: Kandahar massacre

Blueskies wrote:

And he was from a base that produced quite a few nutjobs.

How many terrorists did this guy create? Afghanistan is Vietnam II, withdraw immediately it is doing us nothing but harm.

As a former service member... I agree...

This guy was also on his 4th deployment... Ops tempo is too high and its taking its toll... I think they should institute a law that on the date of our 5th year at war government must implement the draft... This country doesn't go to war anymore, our military and their families do... Change that and these never ending wars will come to an end... At least then we'd be having a serious discussion about Wtf we are still doing there and what we are gaining from it... And if we decide as a country that its worth it we'd have the man power to pull it off without stretching our service members to their breaking point...