Is there a distinction at all? I imagine there are many Masters throughout the world, every club has one and every show has demos from masters as well. Yet, I imagine World-Class bonsai to be above the master-class, these are the bonsai that, as you said, can "compare favorably" with those at world-level shows.

Come on Rob and Will, let this not become a p..ing contest.
The main theme of this thread should not be how many if any master pieces, world class trees etc are in America. The main theme should be what can be done to make all the trees and talents that are already there more visible and to create more quality trees and talents.
Whoever wanted to understand the more or less subtle messages so far understood them already. And whoever just does not want to understand and rather shoots the messangers will not be convinced anyway.
Walter

The main theme of this thread should not be how many if any master pieces, world class trees etc are in America. The main theme should be what can be done to make all the trees and talents that are already there more visible and to create more quality trees and talents.

Will,
I hope that you didn't mean to show Cheng Cheng Kung's juniper as the absolute minimum standard for world class. His carving is so good that nobody can come even close to what he does. If that's the standard we have to beat, then I'm afraid we all are going to fail.
Don't make this more depressing than it is. :)

Attila,
There is nothing about Cheng Cheng Kung's Bonsai that should depress you. They are exquiste and inspiring. You are so right about his Jins and Sharis.
Too often they are created quickly and used as props. His are painstakingly slow to create and much thought is given to the entire Bonsai. It is a great lesson and should inspire us with his excellence.
Mark

Just a side note. This thread has gone on over eight pages. It has been filled with ideas, agreements, disagreements and points of view from all over the world. It amazes me that no one has gotten mad. There has been no blood letting, no throwing of bricks, name calling, or questioning of one's parentage or accusations of an oedipal relationship.
It makes me proud to be involved in bonsai once more, and renewed my faith in the people that do bonsai both professionally and as amateurs.

Will,I hope that you didn't mean to show Cheng Cheng Kung's juniper as the absolute minimum standard for world class. His carving is so good that nobody can come even close to what he does. If that's the standard we have to beat, then I'm afraid we all are going to fail.Don't make this more depressing than it is. :)

Yes Attila, you are right on the mark. I remember that we had front row seats to watch Cheng work at GSBF 2005.
Little hope for us ordinary mortals.
Sigh.
Mike

Small world.
American bonsai, according to some, has a long ways to go in order to be placed side by side with with European bonsai. This, even though American Bonsai is ten years older than European Bonsai.
The Europeans were enjoying fine art long before America was discovered (discovered being relative, my own ancestors would argue the point) and while it is true that America was settled by Europeans sharing this artistic heritage, it would be many years before they could turn again to such leisurely pleasures. For all intents and purposes, the European settlers here left their artistic heritage at home.
Since then many American Artists have sprung up, landscapes painted by these masters are truly works of American art. Bonsai has not traveled the same path here, to this day people are imitating the Japanese, quoting Japanese rules, and using Japanese terminology.
Have the Europeans left this behind?

Will, as you know I have another article that addresses this issue in a small way. Personally I have become bored with much of the Japanese Model though I am having a problem separating myself from it. It is the work of Cheng Cheng Kung and Walter Pall that have opened my eyes to the possibilities of going beyond those patterns, but that of course is not to say the Japanese model is wrong, it is just one way and perhaps not the only way.

Vance,
just an additional thought:
You are probably familiar with Cheng's publications. The one book mainly deals with his sidiao technique. Cheng mentioned that he published the book to also show what you can do with material of secondary quality!
Think about it, 'secondary quality'!
This clearly shows to me how far Taiwan actually has advanced in the art of bonsai, not to mention their fabulous tropicals. (Knowing the Taiwanese juniper is one of the best material there is..)
So, it is not only Europe who is galopping away, for me it is Taiwan which is beaming away even more.
Regards,
dorothy

I wish I could honestly tell you that I was familiar with Cheng's book, or an abundance of his works. All I know is what I have recently read. I was blown away by the pictures posted on IBC and here, I had not seen his work previously. I know that sounds unbelievable, but it is none the less true. I agree with you about his skill and artistry.

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