In fact, I did just this recently with a Lehmann NY style dough, and reported on the results at Reply #175 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,576.160.html. The preferment for that particular experiment was dough-like in texture but I see no reason why you couldn't use a more liquid preferment so long as you are careful with the kneading so as no to generate excessive heat in the dough.

Thank you Peter for all the insights. Actually after killing my yeast once just as you described I learned to start with the right temperature of water, and stop the the food processor every minute or so. With dry yeast I pretty much mastered how to get the dough to turn out at about 85°. In fact, that's one of the reasons I like using a food processor so much (because you can get the temp of the dough up there where it needs to be).

I liked it so much that after I sold my mixer, along with my old food processor, I used the money to upgrade to Kitchenaid's new Proline series 1000w food processor. Man is that thing impressive, and it holds steady when the dough is spinning around. But the 16 cup bowl is too big for making a single pizza, and the 1000 watt motor shreds the dough. I talked with KA extensively about this suggesting they needed to make a dough blade for the smaller 11 cup work bowl, and for the unit to have a slower speed. Seeing I wasn't too happy with the unit were nice enough to let me trade it back the most powerful version of their now discontinued 11 cup line (690 watts), which I'm happy with. After all that, I wasn't looking forward to investing in another mixer, so I am glad to hear your views about using the food processor.

.When you use a preferment to leaven a dough, and especially a more liquid one, you will in most cases have to make an adjustment to the amount of flour to compensate for the added liquid from the preferment. Otherwise, the dough can be too wet. This is one of the reasons why professional bakers who routinely use preferments try to get their preferments to have the same hydration as the doughs into which the preferments are injected. That way, any adjustments are minor.

This is a little off topic, but I am both excited and stressed about using the preferment. Right now I have my recipe figured out to the gram and second, and so I figure learning the new crust is going to mean less than perfect pizzas for a while.

I'll be reading what everyone has been doing here, and likely trying the recipe you provided above, but maybe I could ask just a couple of quick questions first.

The preferment a local baker gave me was in the form of a batter. She said it was over two years old, and explained how when one creates a new starter how aggressive it rises dough and has intense flavor, but as time passes the starter acts more slowly but imparts less intense but higher quality flavor to the dough.

She said I needed to "dry" out my starter between uses by adding flour. Then when I was going to use it, add water again, take out what I was going to use, and then dry out what remains and store it in the refrigerator until the next time I want to use it.

Of course, the way I like to do things is to have exactly to the gram how much of what to add, so I have to figure all that out. I was wondering what just what you suggested, if, that is, one can add just enough water to the starter to bring get it close to the consistency of how your dough is going to be. If that works, that seems ideal. But, do I need to add the water a day before I'm going to use it to let it get to work? Or can I do it right when I'm going to use it?

With dry yeast, I let my dough rise for an hour before I refrigerate it for 36 hours or so. Should I do that with the preferment too?

I don't think you need another food processor at the moment, but I thought I would mention that the newer Cuisinart food processors (11-cup and 14-cup versions) now come with a dough cycle and a special metal dough blade for kneading doughs intended to be used to make pizzas and other bread products. The speed of the unit is reduced during the dough cycle to prevent overheating of the dough.

As for your question on the use of prefements, I will preface my remarks by saying that I am not an expert in that area and am learning as I go also. And because I don't know, I rely on my understanding of science and hope it bails me out--and luck, of course. However, what the baker told you appears to be correct. It also appears that she uses her preferment just as other bakers do who use preferments on a daily basis, that is, create a preferment that has a hydration percent as close as possible to the dough into which the preferment is to be incorporated. It may well be that she also uses the liquid form to make breads, which is fairly common also. Fellow member Marco, an expert on preferments, mentions that he has a preferment that is fairly dry, which he uses for pizza making. I believe he keeps it on the dry side because he doesn't use it as frequently as his other preferments (which I believe are more liquid-like, and for bread making purposes), and the preferment activity will slow down while in the refrigerator because of the lesser amount of water. That may also mean that it isn't as necessary to refresh the preferment as often.

I have used my preferment in both a batter-like state and a more dough-like state. I mentioned the Lehmann recipe that uses a preferment in the more dough-like state (in a room temperature application), but I have also used a more liquid one in a Lehmann retarded dough (which I also reported on at the Lehmann thread). In the retarded version, I went with the dough directly into the refrigerator, without any rest period. Marco uses his dough-like preferment in a room temperature version only. I don't believe he has a retarded dough version leavened with a preferment. So, as you can see, there are many possibilities.

I have found that both liquid-like and dough-like preferments work reasonably well. It ultimatately comes down to getting to know your preferment and its habits and capabilities, which comes with time and experience. However, if you propose to use a dough-like form of your preferment, whether to leaven a retarded or nonretarded dough, I would tend to add the water (warm) to the preferment when it comes out of the refrigerator, along with enough flour to refresh the preferment but keep it dough-like in form, and let the refreshed preferment set at room temperature for several hours (say, 4-6 hours) before incorporating the requisite amount into the rest of your recipe. For the amount to use, I have been using around 15-20% by weight of flour. I see no reason why you can't use your food processor so long as you watch the heat buildup in the dough. Once you get the process down pat, then you can adjust your recipe ingredients and baker's percents accordingly, if you so wish. Even then you may find it necessary to make minor adjustments to the formulation.

Thanks so much for the advice. I'll be experimenting over the next few weeks with this, the higher hydration recipes, and manipulating my pizza oven a bit.

I don't have need for a digital camera, so I've never bought one. But I might borrow one to contribute a pizza recipe to this site, one which I've perfected over the last few years, and which all my friends at least constantly request me to make.

Santos dough mixer finally arrived today. What an awesome piece of machinery! Picture below is of a small batch (500g flour) of baguette dough. This probably is as small as I'll want to go, but the fork action was perfect and the dough came together very quickly. It seemed softer than usual, but the proof will be in the baking tomorrow.

Yes, the bowl rotates, but there is not a motor that drives it. The bottom of the bowl is mounted on an axis so that it is free to rotate. The action of the fork pulling the dough also pulls the bowl by virtue of the stickiness of the dough. A screw at the base of the bowl can be tightened to make it harder for the fork to pull the bowl in order to control the speed of rotation. You can also rotate the bowl by hand in either direction. This was useful during the early stages of kneading before the dough had started to come together. Hard to describe, but very simple and very effective.

Great Bill ,glad to see you got your new mixer (Hopefully at the old price !)I like the fact that you can actually move the bowl by hand.This machine really does need to have at least a Kilo of Flour to operate under its own momentum IMO.The only thing I have decided to do is remove the ( Polycarbonate? ) lid and " jury rig" it so that I can continually add flour without having to stop the machine every time.I know this is against all the safety rules ,but It is the main drawback of the closed in bowl and this machine.

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Yes, I got it at the old price. The bowl did rotate with only half a kilo of flour, but that was with my baguette dough which is dryer than my pizza dough. Today I will try pizza dough. (I just fed my starter). I was planning on a batch of about 650g of flour.

Regarding the lid: on mine, the lid is not totally closed-in. There is about a 6" cutout on the side opposite the fork for adding ingredients while the fork is moving.

According to the manual: "Up to 4kg of stiff pastry (2.5 kg of flour) may be prepared in the 10 liter bowl". Since pizza dough is not so stiff, perhaps it could handle more. I doubt I would ever use more than 1.5kg of flour.

I did ask because the larger professional model I have used had the bowl rotating mechanically, but this model did not seam to have a belt or a motor under the bowl. I guess it is designed to rotate as you describe it.

Baked pizza today using dough mixed in the Santos fork mixer. Absolutely no question this was the best pizza I have ever made. But I think some or much of the credit may go to factors other than the mixer. I'm going to continue this discussion over in the Neapolitan Section where it is more germane.

I have done 3.2 K of Flour and it was a mistake.The dough continually climbed and I had to keep stopping the machine.Stick to the Manufacturers recomendations and you'll be fine.BTW Bill was the 36 hr refridgerated rise done because you were not sure that you would be using the dough within 24 hrs or do you just prefer that to a room temp rise (Maybe your room temps are high in SF ?)I must say that my first experiment was my best yet.Maybe it was because it had exceeded my anticipated expectations,maybe because all the stars were in line with my room temp/dough management or maybe it was just leaps and bounds ahead of anything I had produced before and the closest thing I had come to experienceing the Pizza of my distant memory?The Goal is to get to Marco's position of not getting it wrong even if I try,and perfecting my dough spreading technique !Off topic completely,but some friend took me to a Pizzeria in Freehold NJ yesterday that frequently gets great press and is reputedly one of the best Pizzerias in the State (if not the country)The pizza was truly awful IMO.Dry,overcooked and cracker-like.In total contrast a week ago I was at Il Pizzaioli in Pittsburgh where I enjoyed a finely executed Neapolitan.America is truly a melting pot and there is room for everyone,we just need to make education available to all so that they can differentiate between a quality artisan produced product and the hyped up crap that is force fed to kids nationwide.I really believe that too many folk sing the praises of mediocre establishments just because they have read a (PR produced) newspaper report or they just echoe the sentiments of colleagues because they really do not know the difference between what good and bad really is !I see that the US Baking Team won a gold medal in France again this year- how long before Mothers stop packing lunch Boxes with Wonderbread and Poptarts?

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David,This batch was fermented for 12 hours at room temp (~80F). I then placed it in the refrigerator overnight to be used the next day, but plans changed so dough was in the refrigerator for an additional 24 hours. Shaped and proofed for about 4 hours and baked.

How long have you had your Santos? Where did you get it?

Regarding pizza tastes, Ed Levine has it right, I think, that each of has seared in our brains the pizzas of our childhood or college years and that becomes our ideal pizza. Although you and I might agree that a given pizzeria produces mediocre pies, it may very well be that someone who was weaned on those pizzas considers them the best in the world. There are many people who would never appreciate an "artisan" product. For some reason, this kind of early imprinting of food memories is unique to a few types of food such as pizza and BBQ. People aren't nearly as passionate about things like cereal, sodas, etc, don't you think?.

I got it in May, Bill,from SuiteSupply for about $850.Unfortunately I see they have now raised the price a fair amount.I took Marco's recomendation.I then hid it in the basement , pulled it out one day, and said to my Wife-"Oh that....!I've had that for ages.............." Just as she does to me every now and again !!

I posted some info here:

Re: Pizza Raquel« Reply #99 on: May 26, 2005, 04:13:50 PM »

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------Re: Pizza Raquel« Reply #16 on: April 24, 2005, 09:02:06 PM »If you are considering a serious mixer for home use, the Santos would be the No 1 choice. The only question is if the bowl does rotate...

The bowl does rotate and you can manually adjust the speed of the rotation which will help in stopping any dough climbing.It is available in the USA from:

Oops! I forgot to say Bill,I completely understand your comments about tastes,but have to add that I would never even attempt to try a plate of spaghetti until I was an Adult,due to being force fed a can of Heinz as a kid !Now ,having grown up in Europe ,BBQ is a relatively new learning curve for me?So far ,my "Off the Shelf" Sauce of choice is Stubbs Spicy,though i'm happy to be pointed elsewhere..........

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Yikes, I just checked the new price: $1,075! It looks like the list price shot up also. I paid $857 including shipping. Boy, was I lucky to get it before the price hike.

I used the Santos today to mix up a big batch of baguette dough. After fermenting with a natural starter and retarding for a few days in the refrigerator, I'm going to shape a bunch of loaves and freeze them to see if they stand up as well as my old recipe.

BBQ is a relatively new learning curve for me?So far ,my "Off the Shelf" Sauce of choice is Stubbs Spicy,though i'm happy to be pointed elsewhere..........

David,

I would point you toward Bill Arnold who makes the best bottled sauce I've found. Try all of his flavors. Tennessee Red is the one I use the most, but all are outstanding. Get some of his rub, too! Trust me.