Masons not a secret society

I expected that sort ofreply from you MM, you cannot comprehend someone would not want to join.

I stand by what I have said in all my posts.

I do howver take exception with your comments on magial ritual and practice, for someone who purports to be a high ranking mason, you seem know little
of the significance of what you do and why it was originally done.

Originally posted by mage
Oh dear and I thought you were one of the good guys!

It's true, I am a Mason, and therefore one of the good guys.

As far as magic goes, the rituals are magical just as many are i.e catholic ones , ever seen a lesser known piece called the magic flute, the
teachingsof crowley etc.

I personally do not care for Crowley at all, and I think that those who practice what they think are his "teachings" are in fact much much cleverer
than Crowley ever was, and have interpreted his juvenile ramblings in a sophisticated, caring, and compassionate way that Crowley never meant. I
refer to what Yeats said when Crowley wanted to join the Golden Dawn:

Son, I've been studying the Tree of Life since before you learned how to press the "send" button. The Kabbalah itself is completely non-magical...
it is a method of studying the nature of the Universe and God. Some people have in the past practiced the "Practical Kabbalah" which is a means of
using their knowledge to fulfill the will of God. Both Kabbalah and the "Practical Kabbalah" are completely opposed to magic, i.e. using
"supernatural" powers to further your own selfish goals. You may be thinking of Yehuda Berg's modern "Kabbalah" movement, the one that Madonna
and Britney Spears belong to. I'm on their mailing list, and IMO they are not "true" Kabbalah (I don't want to get sued).

Regardless of all this, however, no Masonic ritual is magic in the sense of being designed to do anything supernatural at all. The only way that
Masonic ritual is magic is the same way that a Zen koan is magic - they transmit enlightenment through ineffable means.

Originally posted by mage
you seem know little of the significance of what you do and why it was originally done.

Uh-huh... and how, exactly, Mr. Mage, do you claim to know "the significance of what [we] do and why it was originally done," eh? If
"high-ranking" (that cracks me up every time) Masons with the same access to information as you don't know about it, how do you?

Originally posted by mage
I expected that sort ofreply from you MM, you cannot comprehend someone would not want to join.

I do howver take exception with your comments on magial ritual and practice, for someone who purports to be a high ranking mason, you seem know little
of the significance of what you do and why it was originally done.

I "ofreply" like this often, I do not fail to comprehend that someone would not want to join, I fail to comprehend why someone would be disingenuous
as to wanting to join. If it didn't matter, it wouldn't be at the heart of your reply. When I Chair an Investigation Committee, I try to find a
reason a petitioner may be lacking. My signature will be on that petition, and will reflect my judgment for years to come. I've yet to endure a
"gee, you blew that one, what were you thinking".

As to your smirking reference to "High Ranking" Masons, I have held both elected and appointed offices in Masonic bodies, I am well versed in the
"significance" of what I "do". The highest ranking... oh never mind its been said too many times before. What possible knowledge of Masonic ritual
could you possibly be familiar with, You've "declinced" membership by your own admission, where would this insight be obtained from.

Magic does not mean the attainment of selfish goals, in fact thoses of the wicca religon belive that any selfish magical act will harm the practioner
of these practices 3 fold.

Magic in most peoples view is making something out of nothing and changing one thing into another, effecting a change in the supposed natural order of
things or infulence on matter.

In this definition then the very universe is a magical entity.

As for God it depends on which God you are taking about as many christians for instance would argue about your God.

Others belive God is a hypothetical construct to explian the unexplainable or perhaps seeming magial occurances.

As for the old faith of which you have been studing before I could press the send button, It is magial in its construction, it has been used in this
way right from its origination to the religous cerimonies and rituals of todayin all religions that have evolved from it.

People have lost the sigificance of what they are saying and doing along the way.

As for masons not being aware of the magic practices that they do I quite agree as I stand by what I have said most, not all, do not care about it as
long there social standing and ego are inflated.

Originally posted by AlexKennedy
Nonetheless, I am willing to change my mind on Crowley if someone shows me adequate proof he was actually a nice guy (Masonic Light, I'm looking at
you).

In his preface to Israel Regardie’s biography of Crowley, “The Eye In The Trianlge”, Robert Anton Wilson wrote (and I’m paraphrasing from memory
here): “Crowley was always eccentric, often outrageous on principle, and sometimes downright vicious; but he is unique among the Illuminati in that
that he never attempted to conceal the darker side of his personality.” (or something o that effect).
Crowley is sort of paradoxical. On one hand, he was a brilliant Qabalist. He made the Golden Dawn system of attainment his life’s work, and was one of
the world’s foremost experts on it. His brilliance in occult scholarship is evident from his many books, and he was also notable as a philosopher and
poet. He had a delightful, albeit bizarre, sense of humor, which is also readily apparent in his writings....but most of his jokes are “inside jokes”,
which go unappreciated by casual readers.
On the other hand, there is no doubt that he was neurotic, and suffered from psychological dysfunctions accrued in childhood. Those familiar with his
childhood can understand why, as an adult, he rebelled against everything he thought was “conventional”, and he was a true revolutionary, not only in
politics, but in religion and the world of thought itself.
This controversial Adept had many sides. As you mentioned, he was denounced by Yeats and many others, but he went further than any of his critics,
onto higher attainments than they. When he was admitted into the Golden Dawn, he adopted the motto “Perdurabo”, meaning “perseverance”, which was
probably his most important virtue. He never gave up, and never relented.
I think Crowley is one of the misunderstood men of the 20th century. Most of his modern critics have never really studied him, only books about him.
And those that have actually read him do so for the purpose of finding quotes out of context to use against him, similar to Pike.
Crowley’s legacy lies in his attempt to convince us to think for ourselves, to question authority, whether it be religious, political, or spiritual.
His many “blasphemies”, which he borrowed from Zen Buddhism, was an attempt to remind us that what we hold sacred can sometimes be superfluous, and,
like the Zen Masters of old, believed that heresy could shock one into enlightenment, by forcing us to think outside the box.
Was Crowley a saint? Not a chance. A madman? No more so than Nietzsche, Van Gogh, Rodin, Beethoven, or the other “loose cannons” that has brought so
much truth to mankind through a “divine madness.” Regardie called Crowley “God-intoxicated”, a label that I believe fits him well.

Also, concerning your comments on Magick: true Magick is not “supernatural”. As Pike states in his Lecture on the 32° in Morals and Dogma:

“Magic is that which it is; it is by itself, like the mathematics; for it is the exact and absolute science of Nature and its laws....Magic unites in
one and the same science, whatsoever Philosophy can possess that is most certain, and Religion of the Infallible and the Eternal.” (Morals and Dogma,
p. 841-843)

According to Pike, Freemasonry is Magick, because it encompasses the Science of the Magi, this being elaborated upon in the ritual of the 14° and 32°.
While I agree with you that the Qabalah is not Magick per se, it is its foundation, from which the other Sciences are erected.

Originally posted by mage
Magic does not mean the attainment of selfish goals, in fact thoses of the wicca religon belive that any selfish magical act will harm the practioner
of these practices 3 fold.

Well, I'm no Wiccan, but I believe you're talking about the "law of three" which is essentially a Wiccan beefed-up version of the Golden Rule:
Whatever positive things you do will come back to you three-fold, whatever negative things you do will come back to you three-fold.

Here's the definition of "Magic" from the American Heritage Dictionary of the English Language, Fourth Edition, via www.dictionary.com:

# The art that purports to control or forecast natural events, effects, or forces by invoking the supernatural.
#

1. The practice of using charms, spells, or rituals to attempt to produce supernatural effects or control events in nature.
2. The charms, spells, and rituals so used.

# The exercise of sleight of hand or conjuring for entertainment.
# A mysterious quality of enchantment: “For me the names of those men breathed the magic of the past” (Max Beerbohm).

Although Wiccans call what they do "Magick" (note the extra "k"), as far as I am aware, they never try to "control" nature... they simply try to
protect themselves and others from what they view to be malevolent non-corporeal beings (I hope a Wiccan will correct my mistakes in the above).

As for God it depends on which God you are taking about as many christians for instance would argue about your God.

Hmmm... I can't quite suss what you mean here, but it seems you're implying that I worship a different God from "many Christians?" Well, I am a
Christian, so I'd have trouble figuring out how that is so.

Anyway, the word "God," capitalised, refers universially to the same entity. It refers to the monotheistic God, of which there is only one.
Although Jews, Muslims, Christians, Hindus, etc. might worship this God in different ways and have different doctrines, very few people who actually
know what they are talking about would tell you that YHVH, Allah, or the universal Brahma are meant to be different and separate entities. At very
worst, someone would believe, say, that Allah exists but YHVH does not (this is a terrible fallacy and misunderstanding of religion, IMO, but at least
it is an opinion some educated people have held).

Others belive God is a hypothetical construct to explian the unexplainable or perhaps seeming magial occurances.

You mean atheists who also (in addition to being atheists) are ignorant about the nature of religion (there are some of these, but far fewer than
you'd think... many atheists actually have a fairly good understanding of what they don't believe in).

As for the old faith of which you have been studing before I could press the send button, It is magial in its construction, it has been used in
this way right from its origination to the religous cerimonies and rituals of todayin all religions that have evolved from it.

Kabbalah is not a faith. It is a method for understanding a faith. What is that faith? Hmmm? That's right, Judaism.

A Christian, Muslim, Hindu, Zoroastrian, etc. can easily study Kabbalah (in my opinion, the doctrines of Christ, for example, and illuminated by an
understanding of Kabbalah) as long as they remember that Kabbalah addresses issues raised by the Torah.

As for masons not being aware of the magic practices that they do I quite agree as I stand by what I have said most, not all, do not care about it as
long there social standing and ego are inflated.

Frankly, you don't know anything about Masons if you make this claim. It's simply not so. I don't say this idly... for the last year I have been
a regional Masonic Higher Education Bursary Fund spokesman, and have travelled to all sorts of Lodges and met all sorts of Masons. Some of them have
their faults (although I have never met so big a sinner as myself

), but I have never found any of them to be even slightly concerned with their
social standing. Masonry explicitly teaches the equality of all humans in the ritual (which you apparently know nothing about), so those who care
about social standing are bound to be turned off.

So, two simple questions: i) If "high-ranking" Masons don't understand the "true nature" of the rituals, how come you don't when you're not any
kind of Mason at all (second time asked), and ii) What do you propose is the purpose of our so-called "magical" rituals (first time asked)?

Originally posted by AlexKennedy
Although Wiccans call what they do "Magick" (note the extra "k"), as far as I am aware, they never try to "control" nature...

I think controlling Nature is a basic act of Magick, and it’s certainly not a bad thing. Remember, what one generation calls “magic”, another will
call “science”.
We are able to communicate on this forum because we have learned to control Nature to the extent of harnassing its electrical power, and purposely
directing it. This is precisely the true definition of Magick. Everyone on this forum is a Magician in the vulgar sense of the word, because they are
consciously directing Nature’s forces to a determined goal. If one would be a Magus in the true (and not only) the vulgar sense, all he would have to
do is to direct Nature’s forces for spiritual (rather than only material) attainments.

Originally posted by Masonic Light
Also, concerning your comments on Magick: true Magick is not “supernatural”. As Pike states in his Lecture on the 32° in Morals and Dogma:

“Magic is that which it is; it is by itself, like the mathematics; for it is the exact and absolute science of Nature and its laws....Magic unites in
one and the same science, whatsoever Philosophy can possess that is most certain, and Religion of the Infallible and the Eternal.” (Morals and Dogma,
p. 841-843)

According to Pike, Freemasonry is Magick, because it encompasses the Science of the Magi, this being elaborated upon in the ritual of the 14° and 32°.
While I agree with you that the Qabalah is not Magick per se, it is its foundation, from which the other Sciences are erected.
[Edited on 29-5-2004 by Masonic Light]

OK, OK, you're right, I wasn't scrupulously correct on this point. The problem is that when you say "magic," people think of manipulating nature
toward your own ends... which is NOT the purpose of what Pike meant by Magick there. Also, the word "Magic" can be used both for practical
application and the knowledge of the Magi. When someone's accusing Masonry of "practicing magic," however, I seriously doubt that they mean "Hey,
Masonry analyses the nature of the universe, the Deity, and the progression of God's will into matter, the chain of action by which this happens."
No, what they mean is "Darn Masons are worshipping the Devil and trying to get control of our minds, and they're killing babies and crucifying frogs
and what-not!"

Yes, the Kabbalah (Qabalah, I know what you mean by this distinction) is the foundation of what the wise term "magic," but keep in mind (yeah,
right, like I have to tell you to keep anything in mind) that one of the things the Kabbalah teaches us is to avoid using the knowledge of the
Kabbalah to try to further our own egotistical ends. You remember of course the story of the four sages who entered the garden: Rabbi Akibha entered
in peace and left in peace, while to Elisha Aher was applied the proverb "Hast thou found honey? Eat so much as is sufficient for thee, lest thou be
filled therewith, and vomit it."

I really do respect your knowledge of things Kabbalistic, ML, and sincerely hope I will be able to discuss these things with you at greater depth some
day. Are you a member of the Societas Rosicruciana in (I guess if you're American) Civitatibus Foederatis?

Originally posted by Masonic Light
If one would be a Magus in the true (and not only) the vulgar sense, all he would have to do is to direct Nature’s forces for spiritual (rather than
only material) attainments.

Right, well, this is exactly what I'm getting at. The problem is one of personal power. If an individual attains (or attempts to attain) personal
power without understanding his or her own nature and his or her own obligation to the Deity, that individual is comitting the sin of Pride in the
very truest sense.

I'd make a distinction between "controlling" nature and being a "steward" of nature. The Magus and the thoughtful Mason may have as much power
over nature as the most powerful profane person, but the Magus and the Mason use that power as it is properly meant to be used.

As a Scottish freemason of some years I think that freemasonary is a society of men who make the world a better place to live in for all people
regardless of their politics and religious outlook on life. There is nothing in freemasonary that is harmful to society. In my sojurn in freemasonary
I have made many friends all over the world and have been to masonic meetings in Canada and the USA and all over the UK. I look forward to my masonic
meetings and of being of service to my community, be it the masonic one and the the non masonic one.

how do you know it's not a conspiracy to believe that they are a secret society? Hell, it makes sence to me for them to have their secrets. One, it
get people interested in them so it calls attention and helps i'm sure with recruiting as long as the peoson is smart enough to ask and actual mason
for info. Secondly, I don't tell my friends all my secrets when i just meet them, i wait until I can trust the fact that they won't tell. It's
just smart.

I don't think the "senior" masons who post here are ignorant of anything. They are just doing their job as best as they can.

For the curious, the information you seek is out there. Much has been published both pro and con for many years. I suggest that you start with the
mason web sites and record the names of the men who are listed as admirable. It will shorten the trip to the truth if you concentrate on the
33's.

Then use all available resources to find out what words those men are recorded as having said. Of course, you must beware of quotes which may present
these ideas out of context. If you can afford to copy the site, you can afford to pick up some of the referenced books.

One resource you may wish to use should be used in light of a precaution. If you have the ability, you should first copy the entire site I will
mention later to your harddrive. This site has come under heavy attack, and disappears on and off. ISPs come under heavy fire and the site gets
dropped. It will be gone for quite some time should its creator disappear.

My hope, and purpose for posting tonight, is let certain people know that the resource can not destroyed. It has been copied by many. By putting
this information out, I hope a valiant life might be spared.

Silly, maybe, but just sitting on our butts is not acceptable. The truth will not set you free in this case. Beware.

The promised reference is presently called www.freemasonrywatch.org.

Now I will become silent. I get a kick out of the humor you masons tend to use so well to deflect the truth. Perhaps the honesty of the post is even
worthy of the silent treatment? I could only hope.

As a freemason of some years standing I am happy to debate freemasonary and the philospohical ideology of the degrees. The only part that I will not
debate are the means by which freemasons are known to one another. These 'means' are a part of our history and only of interest to freemasons. There
is nothing that is wicked or santanic in these means but as a freemason we have the right to privacy in the same way that any other society of men or
women have this right. As a freemason who belongs to most of the masonic orders I look forward to debate with my Brtn and non masons.

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