turso wrote:Nope, I tend to stay away from products manufactured by the jesus people.

Bigot.

Nah, I just try to stay away from funding people whose world view I see as destructive to the advancement of technology and human kind in general.

Because "jesus people" who feed 3rd world orphans and clothe/shelter the homeless are destroying the advancement of technology? That makes me so angry too

I'm with Jeronimo here.

If they made some decent looking discs I would try them out, but how in the world are you suppose to grip those things?

You're attacking my argument with something completely unrelated to it? They may feed the homeless and clothe the poor, but organised religion is root of all evil and people supporting it no matter what the reason are just advancing the misery it has caused humankind over the millenias, and not agreeing with that is being as deluded as the people who actually believe fairy tales like the bible or little red riding hood. This of course doesn't mean that believers are evil mind you, just misguided, and your argument makes it seem that only people who actually help the poor and such must be "jesus people".

turso wrote:Nope, I tend to stay away from products manufactured by the jesus people.

Bigot.

Nah, I just try to stay away from funding people whose world view I see as destructive to the advancement of technology and human kind in general.

Because "jesus people" who feed 3rd world orphans and clothe/shelter the homeless are destroying the advancement of technology? That makes me so angry too

I'm with Jeronimo here.

If they made some decent looking discs I would try them out, but how in the world are you suppose to grip those things?

You're attacking my argument with something completely unrelated to it? They may feed the homeless and clothe the poor, but organised religion is root of all evil and people supporting it no matter what the reason are just advancing the misery it has caused humankind over the millenias, and not agreeing with that is being as deluded as the people who actually believe fairy tales like the bible or little red riding hood. This of course doesn't mean that believers are evil mind you, just misguided, and your argument makes it seem that only people who actually help the poor and such must be "jesus people".

Your statement displays parts of what I see as the real underlying problem...Dogmatic belief systems..."Root of all evil", "not agreeing with that is being as deluded"...Those sound a lot like that which you seem to hate (religious dogma). Don't get me wrong, I'm an atheist/science minded individual, but I owe a lot of my social values(humility, care for others, there is something going on in the world/universe more important than myself) to growing up going to church, so it's not all bad and different people react to it differently. Things aren't so polarized. I'm not even sure science would exist without religion.

Science and religion both limit creative thinking in the same way. They offer an "answer" to certain problems/thoughts/situations and often times the thought process ends there (because the bible says so / because science proves so). This is not to say that nothing good comes from either place but I think it's wise to never believe something 100% and inversely, never dismiss something 100%.

uNicedmeMan wrote:Science and religion both limit creative thinking in the same way. They offer an "answer" to certain problems/thoughts/situations and often times the thought process ends there (because the bible says so / because science proves so). This is not to say that nothing good comes from either place but I think it's wise to never believe something 100% and inversely, never dismiss something 100%.

Actually science is not about answers...It's a systematic method of asking questions and narrowing possibilities. In science the thought process never ends. There are very few laws in science, and a whole bunch of theories/hypothesis because it recognizes possible creative approaches that have yet to be thought of. Science is pretty much skepticism, which IS never believing in something or ruling it out 100% by making overbroad conclusions without specifically examining the minutia. It's the process that is important. Science is also one of the only things that can be practiced across cultures and still be the same because it can be demonstrated without requiring preconceived beliefs.

uNicedmeMan wrote:Science and religion both limit creative thinking in the same way. They offer an "answer" to certain problems/thoughts/situations and often times the thought process ends there (because the bible says so / because science proves so). This is not to say that nothing good comes from either place but I think it's wise to never believe something 100% and inversely, never dismiss something 100%.

I don't agree with this. Science is based on continually questioning everything we seem to "know", and no true scientist will claim infallibility on any subject. Your statement fits only those people who view science as a religion in itself.

Take Bertrand Russell for example, who wasn't happy with established mathematic principles because they used circular logic all over the place. So he decided to start from the bottom and managed to prove that 1+1 equals 2, among other things. Mathematics and other sciences were based on those assumptions and even leading mathematicians just said "because that's how it is", and still there were others we questioned this and set to find out the real truth. Imagine if they'd found out it isn't necessarily so? This is the ace up science's sleeve. It continually questions itself and tries to improve.

People are people however, and scientist can be just as small-minded and bigoted as religious people.

What bothers me about religion is that it doesn't really supply anything. Every good thing religion gives us could just as well be handled out of religious context, and often even better because we wouldn't have to worry about "word of god". Feeding 3rd world orphans and providing schools is a GREAT thing. Especially education is an excellent thing, and sorely needed there. But the same people also hurt the 3rd world (church's stand on condoms not helping at all with the AIDS problem, among other things). I'd rather have the people helping not be bound by religious dogma. In short, I'm not questioning that some Jesus people do good things. I just think that there is no need for them to be Jesus people to do those things. The flipside of religions is that while they have some very good orders, they also have absolutely ghastly ones as well, and depending on who (which sect, religion, etc.) you listen to those are just as important as the good ones, and you end up stoning people in between feeding the homeless.

Christianity makes for a fantastic philosophy (well, the new testament at least), but it makes for a HORRIBLE religion.

Parks wrote:If the posts on this forum are any indication, the PD is like a Teebird with sunshine coming out of its butthole so hard that it flies faster.

jubuttib wrote:I'd rather have the people helping not be bound by religious dogma. In short, I'm not questioning that some Jesus people do good things. I just think that there is no need for them to be Jesus people to do those things. The flipside of religions is that while they have some very good orders, they also have absolutely ghastly ones as well, and depending on who (which sect, religion, etc.) you listen to those are just as important as the good ones, and you end up stoning people in between feeding the homeless.

So people can do good things without religion, but the bad things are all forced on people by religion. That's a really illogical argument. It's just as easy to say that all of the bad things that were done in the name of religion could have been done without religion as it is to say that all the good things done in the name of religion could have been done without religion. You're just claiming that the bad stuff, most of which actually goes against the core of what those religions teach, wouldn't have happened if it weren't for religion, but the good stuff, all of which is in line with the core of what those religions teach, would all happen regardless. I understand that church is boring, but claiming it causes evil but isn't required for good is absurd.

I agree that missionaries have done good in many places, but it's still misguided. It was largely missionaries that have spread disease, tobacco, and problematic economic and social belief systems around the world. It's probably not just Christianity, but western culture as a whole that has made people feel entitled to a lifestyle that is not sustainable long term.

Evangelism is pretty condescending by nature, trading tangible goods in order to get people to betray the cultural beliefs and traditions of their ancestors. I think many religions lead to problems in promoting the belief that life here doesn't matter because death will provide paradise. This is the logic that fuels suicide bombers...I also think it contributes to the religious right not giving a damn about global warming and other environmental issues.

Luckily, I feel that what we can observe with our senses and the consequences of everyday (basically secularism) actions trump most peoples' religions. This gives me hope for the future. If everyone behaved dogmatically we'd all be killing each other and the Earth a lot faster.

garublador wrote: You're just claiming that the bad stuff, most of which actually goes against the core of what those religions teach, wouldn't have happened if it weren't for religion, but the good stuff, all of which is in line with the core of what those religions teach, would all happen regardless. I understand that church is boring, but claiming it causes evil but isn't required for good is absurd.

No the point is not that good stuff would happen regardless. The point is that religion is not needed for good things to happen. Good and bad (or evil) things will always happen regardless of religion or science. The problem with religion is that it provides an extremely convenient tool for people, especially uneducated people, to be manipulated into doing horrible things regardless of what the religion says.