ODH, That was never my argument, I think you were just looking for what wasn't there for the purpose of instigating an argument. If I didn't enjoy arguing so much, I might be annoyed.

My argument is that one way or another it HAD been bolted, and based on the information presented to the masses at that juncture, I assessed that I wasn't sure that the justification presented for chopping the route wasn't necessarily valid. Especially because if those criteria are all that is necessary to chop a route, then I can think of about 200 routes I've climbed which might well be in line for some snipping. A few of them around the "Greater wollongong" (read: illawarra) area, from whom the consensus was made to chop THIS route.

Besides, everyone seemed to be taking the pro-chop side of the argument, I felt that the discussion needed some weighted discourse.

On 14/01/2013 PThomson wrote:>If I didn't enjoy>arguing so much, I might be annoyed.

I wouldn't have even bothered trying if I didn't think you were up for a bit of a sprayfest :)>>Especially because if those criteria are all that is>necessary to chop a route, then I can think of about 200 routes I've climbed>which might well be in line for some snipping.

Exactly! Welcome to team choppity-chop.

>A few of them around the>"Greater wollongong" (read: illawarra) area, from whom the consensus was>made to chop THIS route.>
Well, every long journey must start with a single step. The order of chopping is somewhat irrelevant, isn't it?

>Besides, everyone seemed to be taking the pro-chop side of the argument,>I felt that the discussion needed some weighted discourse.

Some of the people who are seriously against these bolts are filed in my mind under "sport climbing pussy". If they are shocked by it, its gotta be pretty effing bad. There's a very short window open now during which Terry can reach a negotiated truce. After that time period lapses, he's gonna be sidelined and the sensible people will clean up the mess.

On 14/01/2013 PThomson wrote:>My argument is that one way or another it HAD been bolted, and based on>the information presented to the masses at that juncture, I assessed that>I wasn't sure that the justification presented for chopping the route wasn't>necessarily valid.

I think you are basing your point of view on Terry's last response - which isn't a reflection of my argument. To get a true reflection of what I was arguing you should read the transcript I posted.

> Especially because if those criteria are all that is>necessary to chop a route, then I can think of about 200 routes I've climbed>which might well be in line for some snipping. A few of them around the>"Greater wollongong" (read: illawarra) area, from whom the consensus was>made to chop THIS route.

Really? The only criteria I based my chopping on was the fact that it had a good chance of endangering the status of climbing on mtk because it was 1m from a well used walking track. I don't know of many bolted routes in the Illawarra that fit this description - besides the ones on the walk in at the Grotto, Nowra which the council knows about and has banned climbing on.

>Besides, everyone seemed to be taking the pro-chop side of the argument,>I felt that the discussion needed some weighted discourse.

Sounds to me like it was a bit of a ridiculous place to bolt and it's better off gone, land managers get stroppy enough about us at the best of times. Bolting something straight off a walking path makes their public liability fingers twitch.

Good to see that the retrobolting discussion jumps to a slinging match in a page or so again...

As one of the last people to climb the route in question, a few comments:

- Ridiculous is not a word I'd use in relation to the bolting. In fact you can walk on a few metres (10-15) and see some shiny bolts on the south face above Shadow, or a bolt underneath No. 1 Crack (which afaik has been there a long time), or for that matter all along the west side of Keira. Are those bolted climbs officially on the walking track? No. Can you see some of them from the track? Yes. Where do you draw the line? A perennial question.
- The climb isn't great quality, nor is it complete crap. It's a beginnerish climb, with everything that entails. It wouldn't take many trad placements - the photo is misleading.
- I note someone has changed the climb name to 'Prow Prowess Poser' on thecrag.com (edit: and within minutes of my post seems to have changed it back). Regardless of who did it, it's not how to advance a reasoned debate.
- You could go choppy spastic on every climb Terry put up, but for consistency you'd have to chop his rebolts, which as some have said are actually a good thing. At some stage you have to ask the question - if you climbed it before and it was so important, why didn't you make sure it was recorded so it wouldn't get unintentionally retroed?

I can see why this route was chopped, but it is neither the first route with rings nor the first route at Keira you could see with rings if you happened to wander around a bit. The major difference seems to be that it wasn't an 'old-schooler' doing the work.

In terms of defacing the crag, the bigger worry to me is that new chipping is appearing, on the Training Route (and perhaps elsewhere per the mention earlier in the thread).

Lastly, let's not forget that regardless of whether you agree with every bolt, anyone who's prepared to put hundreds of hours into a crag is an asset. Chockstone's habit of vilifying people is repugnant to many, for good reason - it's often done only to alleviate boredom.

Definitely some bolting self moderation needs to take place before it becomes a issue with park managers. Not sure how this Terry bloke has got away with all this bolting - surely others should have made there points before it got to this stage?

You think bolting over a track causes a stink, how about bolting a route over a Chapel in the very Catholic country - Malta? Times of Malta article

On 15/01/2013 dalai wrote:>Definitely some bolting self moderation needs to take place before it becomes>a issue with park managers. Not sure how this Terry bloke has got away>with all this bolting - surely others should have made there points before>it got to this stage?

A whole string of people have raised objections, however, Terry has pretty much ignored all of them. I was the first to actually go out and chop something.

On 15/01/2013 dalai wrote:>Definitely some bolting self moderation needs to take place before it becomes>a issue with park managers. Not sure how this Terry bloke has got away>with all this bolting - surely others should have made there points before>it got to this stage?

I was one of the first to raise objections but alot of the time it was after the fact as the climbs (for instance the retro of Brigetta) were done before any consultation. The rebolts were good and I said as such but all my advice was ignored because it wasnt what Terry wanted to hear. To me it became an ego driven glory quest so I just shut up and let it go till Ollie took up the fight.

You all need to realise this has been a burning local issue for ages now and there is alot more thats happened than shown in this forum, but I will not add to slander.

And as for it degenerating into a bitch-fest, well I got abusive messages (which I can produce too) months ago purely for voicing an opposing opinion. This is what happens when drills get into the wrong hands.

On 15/01/2013 Sonic wrote:>... This is what happens when drills get into the wrong hands.

Has anyone ever tried to confiscate someones drill based on overwhelming consensus from the climbing community? It sounds pretty extreme, but Terry's autocratic tone makes me think he leaves those who care about climbing in the area no other option.

On 15/01/2013 ratherbeclimbinV9 wrote:>As one of the last people to climb the route in question, a few comments:>
Who cares? All that shows is that you have very low standards.

>- Ridiculous is not a word I'd use in relation to the bolting.

Again, demonstrating your low standards which are completely out of line with reasonable commentators.

> Are those bolted climbs officially on the walking track? No.

Really? The walking track doesn't go up the cliff? How surprising! In brief; Walkers visit these places to experience some semblance of "nature". Bolting the shit out of everything detracts from their experience, I respect that. All climbing will impinge on the experience of walkers to a certain extent, there is a grey area in which one must weigh up the value of a new route against the environmental damage and potential to harm access. This requires good judgement on the part of developers.

>- The climb isn't great quality, nor is it complete crap. It's a beginnerish>climb, with everything that entails.

Have you climbed at Arapiles? The beginnerish routes there offer some of the best climbing in the world. Easy routes need not "entail" anything bad.

>Regardless of who did it, it's not how to advance a reasoned>debate.

Terry threw reasoned debate out the window when he banned dissenting voices from the discussion which was taking place. The time for reasoned debate has passed. There is now a very short time for Terry to grovel and reach a compromise, then the time for that will pass and things will be taken care of without input from Terry or his submen (I presume this is the category which you fall under)

>- You could go choppy spastic on every climb Terry put up

I'm glad you agree, but no one was asking your permission anyway.

>for consistency>you'd have to chop his rebolts, which as some have said are actually a>good thing.

This is a non sequitur.

>At some stage you have to ask the question - if you climbed>it before and it was so important, why didn't you make sure it was recorded>so it wouldn't get unintentionally retroed?

The onus is on the guy with the drill to ensure he doesn't retro existing routes, not the other way round.>>The major difference seems to be that>it wasn't an 'old-schooler' doing the work.

Lame attempt to re frame this as a personal issue. The guy clearly hasn't done himself any favours with his interpersonal skills, but the bolting would be unacceptable even if Gandhi and Jesus had done it. >>In terms of defacing the crag, the bigger worry to me is that new chipping>is appearing, on the Training Route (and perhaps elsewhere per the mention>earlier in the thread).

Straw man! Extensive/retro chipping is also unacceptable and will be dealt with, this does not mean that the bolting is ok.

>Lastly, let's not forget that regardless of whether you agree with every>bolt, anyone who's prepared to put hundreds of hours into a crag is an>asset.

Wrong! People with self restraint, taste, an appreciation for the environment and the diverse views of the climbing population are an asset. Narrow minded idiots who only know one style of climbing, try to drill their way to "guardian status", and won't listen to rational requests for common sense are a god-damn menace and need to be stepped on before they take their bullshit to good crags!

I don't disagree with some of what you said, but interspersing a reasonable point of view with talk of making people grovel, 'submen' and silly stuff like that?

I don't actually know Terry, much as that may shock you. It's odd you take such a black and white approach all while arguing for people who 'appreciate the environment and diverse views'. Creepy, if I'm honest.

>Lastly, let's not forget that regardless of whether you agree with every>bolt, anyone who's prepared to put hundreds of hours into a crag is an>asset. Chockstone's habit of vilifying people is repugnant to many, for>good reason - it's often done only to alleviate boredom.

This argument is repugnant! A person who climbs for decades and does not sink one bolt is more of an asset than a person who climbs for a few years and retro-bolts even 1 in 10 of the routes they equip.

Even respected bolters sometimes make mistakes. The difference being that they take the consensus opinion on it's merits and remove their bolts. They don't interpret it as a personal attack on their delicate ego. That is why they are respected.

On 15/01/2013 ratherbeclimbinV9 wrote:>...earlier said something about West Face routes being seen from the track

I disagree - from the Dave Walsh track no bolts of any routes can be seen. There may be a few half forgotten boltless boulder problems or top ropes that can be seen through the trees but these have neither chalk nor bolts.

>I'd still like to know what else has been chipped Olbert?

Apparently the start of Trevail/Mind Games has a chip, apparently the already drilled pockets on the Training Route have been enhanced and apparently there is a chip on Getts Up and Goes. Apparently some other chipping has taken place on a few other new routes. I have heard about these from other people as I have no recently climbed any of these routes so I have not verified any of it.