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As I said before I can only quote my own experience (and that of everybody I know who uses Steam) I've used it for 3 years and never had any kind of issue whatsoever, nor have any of my friends that I'm aware of.

As always with emotive issues like this people are enormously economical with the truth at times, just trying to validate their point of view.

FM11 had no required activation. You could install and either play via disc-in-tray, or register via Steam and then there was no need to have your disc to play. And you could access FM on any machine via Steam. Last year we looked for a method to combat piracy, but didn't feel there was an acceptable solution that was balanced the battle against piracy without penalizing genuine customers. This year we feel we've found that solution.

Does the strength of feeling against the idea not tell you that you got it wrong? Will it take upwards of 40% of your current customer base to not buy the game to show you that you've made a mistake? Wouldn't a 40% cut in revenues severely impact on the future of SI as a studio? Whoever made the decision to make FM12 a Steam-only game made a massive mistake...

Originally Posted by Ackter

As mentioned earlier, it was closed because it was effectively a carbon copy of this thread. It's best to keep everyone's opinions in this one thread as it's a lot easier to gauge everything.

What people are saying is far more important than the poll bit of the last thread.

The poll is the best way to gauge opinion! It's much easier to click "vote" than to write a whole post... and that poll was showing over 40% of this forum's member-base were against the introduction of "Steam-only FM". I fear Brock closed it in an attempt to hide from the masses the true feelings of a large proportion of this community which is nothing more than censorship.

I've ignored Brock's postings as, apart from the fact that they show a massive amount of disrespect to the people that actually buy the game, it's quite obvious that he is just another of the monkey's and is nowhere near the organ. What he has to say is about as relevant as those people who "have never had a problem with Steam"...

"I don't like the fact I have to buy a PC or a Mac to play the game, blah blah ti blah"

Using Steam to activate the game is NOT the same as the ill-fated Uniloc activation sytsem.
It forces you to have Steam actively running on your PC in order to play the game.
It forces you to connect to the internet to be able to activate your game.
It provides no more protection against piracy than having your DVD in the drive to start it.

Still don't see the issue. Downloading a piece of software to run a game.

It is a reasonable expectation of a user for an operating system to have a set of applications in order to make their life convenient, and this includes the capability to install other software.

It is not necessarily a reasonable expectation for a user to have Steam in order to run a game.

The game has run without Steam before, so unless something huge has changed in the codebase to tightly bind itself to Steam (which is a bad idea in itself), it is easy to see that Steam and Football Manager 2012 can still be decoupled. They don't need to be dependent on each other.

It's just user expectations. I have an OS and I expect it to allow me to browse the Internet, type some things, have a clock and calendar, and install applications. Sure, it restricts what I can do because I could in theory write my own OS in C and make it do more than Windows 7, but I trade that lack of functionality for convenience. It is just that for some, trading the lack of choice outweighs the supposed benefits forced Steam provides. And since it feels forced, it feels even worse.

Pro-consumer, anti-DRM. Never be satisfied with any answer. Dig until you drop.

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6,670

Originally Posted by CaptainPlanet

Still don't see the issue. Downloading a piece of software to run a game.

No downside.

???

It takes resources (and for those saying 100 MB isn't a lot - it is - Firefox gets complaints hitting those levels), is an additional point of failure (if Steam goes down?), and it is an additional point where your data can be transmitted and is hence a new angle of attack from a security and privacy standpoint.

Having bought a copy for the last 7 years, I will not be buying 2012. FM11 will have to do until this policy changes. I will not be forced to put Steam on my computer.

Make no mistake, if a quarter of the people that usually pirate the game switch to purchasing Football Manager 2012, the sales of the game worldwide would more than double. This would lead to increased development budgets and more benefits for all of you who do buy the game.

But at least previously anyone in Germany could get hold of a disc and run it from that disc. One look at the forums would show you that ther is a large community of players in Germany that can now no longer player the game. Congratulations you have managed to lose all sales in a complete country.

Sales that wouldn't have been factored owing to it not being legal to sell into Germany? Hardly losing anything are they?

Originally Posted by stevetranmere

so you are also telling many of our troops who live on BRITISH bases in germany that its tough s**t? you also wont be able to play fm12!

For the people using pirated versions of FM to play, there is no difference. All it takes is one person to crack the game and/or come up with a workaround (and they will do this) to play it without Steam installed, and the user will find it easily on any of the hundreds of torrent sites out there.

So if you're a person using the pirated version of the game, it makes no difference if SEGA publishes the game exclusively through Steam or not, you will find your cracked version as quickly as usual. Which then creates the question how using Steam will reduce the number non-paying customers? And also; how will SEGA even know if the number is reduced based on Steam, or based on other things?

As I see it, the honest consumers are being punished for the actions of thieves, when we should be rewarded for our many years of loyal consumerism to the developer. I trust Sports Interactive, but I don't trust SEGA, and I definitely don't trust Valve.

What SEGA has done is to effectively add another layer of things that can go wrong between me as a user and the game I want to play. If my account gets compromised, or if I get wrongfully banned for whatever reason, Valve is now the ultimate judge on my purchased games, and can decide on a whim whetherI'm able to play or access them or not.

Although there is a huge difference between Apple and Sports Interactive, SI might want to look at the model Apple use for most of their consumer software products - no DRM, no serials, no activation. And the reason they can do that is because they focus on creating highly polished and desirable software that you want to buy.

And to be honest, I'm 100% certain that it would make no difference in piracy whatsoever if you only publish through Steam, or if you have no DRM, serials or activation whatsoever. And the reason I think that, is because codemonkeys aren't deterred by SEGA's exclusive (and lucrative I assume) publishing deal with Steam, and those who opt for using pirated software won't all of a sudden go "hmm well if it's only on Steam, I might as well buy it, instead of waiting for a cracked version as I always do".

Still don't see the issue. Downloading a piece of software to run a game.

No downside.

???

It's not just 'downloading a piece of software to run a game'. It's 'downloading a piece of software, programmed by a different company whose objectives may not necessarily tie in with SI's or SEGA's, that cannot be switched off but only left in a vague standby mode that doesn't actually stand by very well, that forces behaviour onto users that no other game they have installed from a DVD requires, to run a game.'

I have GalCiv2 on my PC. If I want to update it I have to log on Impulse, so I have an unupdated copy of GalCiv2. But - and this is important - GalCiv2 doesn't demand that I MUST register with Impulse to play the game.

Seeing that I lived in shared accomodation for 4 years with no internet access for my PC, I'm sympathetic to the people on here that are averse to this whole setup. There was not one version of CM/FM that I regularly purchased that demanded internet access (even the last disastrous activation attempt allowed the possibility of offline acivation via telephone).

It's not unobtrusive at all - It's the worst piece of software ever created on a Mac. This is with Steam sitting idle for 10 minutes after opening.

That memory could be put much better to use with FM, which is a close second on the worst piece of software ever created on a Mac. Memory usage and fan speed goes through the roof whenever you launch it.

First off you're using a Mac. That says a lot. Second, 149k is not a lot. Unless your computer is 5 years old, you should have 4gb of ram.

Ok i have steam on my computer and so far have had no problems with it....I understand that people do and so like to own disc based games that dont need to connect to the internet....The sad fact of the matter is that all games on the pc are going digital distribution be that with steam, direct download, greenman gaiming, good old games, and even ea,s origin. Have a look in your local games shop and see how big the pc stand is.It is only maybe another two to three years before all pc games become direct downloads only.This will also happen to consoles, not this gen but next gen...Do you all complain when you download your apps to your phones, tablets.? Do people complain because they cant buy them in a shop ?Ye. Do i think this will stop the game from being pirated... No, it wont , do i think this will earn si any more sales,,, no i dont. The game will sell as much as it does every year....If you want more sales, reduce the price down to under £ 20. A double dip is coming, games are an expensive treat.Yes i no this is about having to acctivate a disc based game via steam, but si are not the only game company that do this.Look at what others are doing befor you judge si so harshly. You want to play battlefield 3 you will need to install orgin you want to play diablo 3 you need to install blizzards downloader and client. And there more games which you are required to do this.

Twice in recent days after I have shut down FM steam is running in the background doing nothing and is around 150mb usage and my poor laptop can't put up with that anymore, will still get FM but was seriously looking forward to uninstalling steam

However, I would like to know the details of the research with regards to the post that was made commenting that for every 1 FM game there is 3 'cracked' games being used or something along those lines.

Obviously the term 'cracked' is very wide.

1) Cracked could mean a product downloaded illegally off the internet and used without paying.
2) It could mean a NOCD crack has been used on a legally purchased game. I understand this violate the terms of the EULA, however, this doesn't mean the game is pirated in anyway shape or form.

So I am interested in this. Does the research that has led to the 3-1 ratio conclusion include or exclude people legally purchasing the game, keeping it, but yet using a NOCD crack. I'm not interested in the rights or wrongs of that as that argument has been done to death on here and all over the internet. I am just curious to know a bit more about the research involved that led to the 3-1 conclusion.

For the people using pirated versions of FM to play, there is no difference. All it takes is one person to crack the game and/or come up with a workaround (and they will do this) to play it without Steam installed, and the user will find it easily on any of the hundreds of torrent sites out there.

So if you're a person using the pirated version of the game, it makes no difference if SEGA publishes the game exclusively through Steam or not, you will find your cracked version as quickly as usual. Which then creates the question how using Steam will reduce the number non-paying customers? And also; how will SEGA even know if the number is reduced based on Steam, or based on other things?

As I see it, the honest consumers are being punished for the actions of thieves, when we should be rewarded for our many years of loyal consumerism to the developer. I trust Sports Interactive, but I don't trust SEGA, and I definitely don't trust Valve.

What SEGA has done is to effectively add another layer of things that can go wrong between me as a user and the game I want to play. If my account gets compromised, or if I get wrongfully banned for whatever reason, Valve is now the ultimate judge on my purchased games, and can decide on a whim whetherI'm able to play or access them or not.

Although there is a huge difference between Apple and Sports Interactive, SI might want to look at the model Apple use for most of their consumer software products - no DRM, no serials, no activation. And the reason they can do that is because they focus on creating highly polished and desirable software that you want to buy.

And to be honest, I'm 100% certain that it would make no difference in piracy whatsoever if you only publish through Steam, or if you have no DRM, serials or activation whatsoever. And the reason I think that, is because codemonkeys aren't deterred by SEGA's exclusive (and lucrative I assume) publishing deal with Steam, and those who opt for using pirated software won't all of a sudden go "hmm well if it's only on Steam, I might as well buy it, instead of waiting for a cracked version as I always do".

3. The number before that is processor power, showing that Steam is using 35% processor power when idling.

Still good?

Many people waste their money on overpriced pieces of crap like Macs when they can build their own for half the price. You can't even replace parts on a Mac, at least pre-built PCs you can. And they complain that they can't afford internet? 35% proccessing power? This guy must have a ****ing 10 year old computer? I'd like to hear the specs on this piece of crap. 149MB is nothing compared to the 4gb most people have.

Just started Steam on my Mac, took 42 seconds to open (couldn't connect to my account). Idling, it's using 143MB, which is more memory than my web browser, my mail client, my Twitter client, etc. It's also using 2-2.5% processor power when just doing nothing. Compared to 'real' background clients like Dropbox, Plex Media Server and Cloud app, Steam is using around 4-5x the resources.

One of the problems with this is that neither SI nor SEGA have any control over the bloatware, and will have to rely on Steam working well on my machine in order for me to actually use the software I bought from SI and SEGA.

Like I said, unless your computer is a piece of crap and about 5 years old, you should have 4gb of ram, which you will rarely ever fill up.

Obviously you do not realise that Mac's are very useful outside the gaming environment & trump PC's in many applications, at a previous employer we had one mac that used for building & developing our online fuctionality, we would never have dreamed about using a PC for that area of the business.

Just because you, I & the majority use the PC format it does not make it the best & only option.

Pro-consumer, anti-DRM. Never be satisfied with any answer. Dig until you drop.

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6,670

Originally Posted by Dune297

Many people waste their money on overpriced pieces of crap like Macs when they can build their own for half the price. You can't even replace parts on a Mac, at least pre-built PCs you can. And they complain that they can't afford internet? 35% proccessing power? This guy must have a ****ing 10 year old computer? I'd like to hear the specs on this piece of crap. 149MB is nothing compared to the 4gb most people have.

It's quite a lot really... This ~150 MB is paged to disk in pages - since it's on your computer, it is getting paged, and is therefore consuming resources under the bonnet.

Also, it doesn't matter how quick your processor is - it's processor cycles it's consuming, and it would be around 35% on many processors, from Pentium 4s to Sandy Bridge Xeons. The difference is how long it takes to complete - i.e. how long it stays at 35%.

Many people waste their money on overpriced pieces of crap like Macs when they can build their own for half the price. You can't even replace parts on a Mac, at least pre-built PCs you can. And they complain that they can't afford internet? 35% proccessing power? This guy must have a ****ing 10 year old computer? I'd like to hear the specs on this piece of crap. 149MB is nothing compared to the 4gb most people have.

I think you'll find that *most people* in today's world of austerity own second-hand and aged computer equipment, partly because they can't afford it, and partly because they don't need it. You are saying that everybody MUST upgrade to a system that matches your high standards...

Please stop posting in this thread because your ill-informed and unwelcome demands on how we should spend our hard-earned salaries deliver nothing to the topic in hand and only serve to anger and upset others.

Many people waste their money on overpriced pieces of crap like Macs when they can build their own for half the price. You can't even replace parts on a Mac, at least pre-built PCs you can. And they complain that they can't afford internet? 35% proccessing power? This guy must have a ****ing 10 year old computer? I'd like to hear the specs on this piece of crap. 149MB is nothing compared to the 4gb most people have.

Well you seem to want to drag this into some kind of juvenile Mac vs PC debate, but you're completely missing the point in the process.

Even if his computer is a "10-year old piece of crap" (which it isn't) it shouldn't matter - the point is that Steam is another resource layer between him and the game, and isn't optimised enough for Mac to work as well in OS X as it does in Windows. For us Mac users, Steam mostly feels like a sloppy port of PC code.

For the people using pirated versions of FM to play, there is no difference. All it takes is one person to crack the game and/or come up with a workaround (and they will do this) to play it without Steam installed, and the user will find it easily on any of the hundreds of torrent sites out there.

So if you're a person using the pirated version of the game, it makes no difference if SEGA publishes the game exclusively through Steam or not, you will find your cracked version as quickly as usual. Which then creates the question how using Steam will reduce the number non-paying customers? And also; how will SEGA even know if the number is reduced based on Steam, or based on other things?

As I see it, the honest consumers are being punished for the actions of thieves, when we should be rewarded for our many years of loyal consumerism to the developer. I trust Sports Interactive, but I don't trust SEGA, and I definitely don't trust Valve.

What SEGA has done is to effectively add another layer of things that can go wrong between me as a user and the game I want to play. If my account gets compromised, or if I get wrongfully banned for whatever reason, Valve is now the ultimate judge on my purchased games, and can decide on a whim whetherI'm able to play or access them or not.

Although there is a huge difference between Apple and Sports Interactive, SI might want to look at the model Apple use for most of their consumer software products - no DRM, no serials, no activation. And the reason they can do that is because they focus on creating highly polished and desirable software that you want to buy.

And to be honest, I'm 100% certain that it would make no difference in piracy whatsoever if you only publish through Steam, or if you have no DRM, serials or activation whatsoever. And the reason I think that, is because codemonkeys aren't deterred by SEGA's exclusive (and lucrative I assume) publishing deal with Steam, and those who opt for using pirated software won't all of a sudden go "hmm well if it's only on Steam, I might as well buy it, instead of waiting for a cracked version as I always do".

Sorry for the essay.

^this!! The only people being punished for piracy are a part (however small) of FM's paying consumer base.

Like I said, unless your computer is a piece of crap and about 5 years old, you should have 4gb of ram, which you will rarely ever fill up.

The minimum supported specs for FM11 state 'Memory - XP-512MB Ram, Vista/W7 - 1GB Ram'. They may appear to be dated to you but it is only fair to assume that people with those sorts of specs are still playing FM.

Pro-consumer, anti-DRM. Never be satisfied with any answer. Dig until you drop.

Posts

6,670

Originally Posted by Dune297

Like I said, unless your computer is a piece of crap and about 5 years old, you should have 4gb of ram, which you will rarely ever fill up.

RAM doesn't work that way - you have virtual memory and caching, and an intelligent operating system that makes optimal use of both physical and virtual memory.

It's not about "filling a quota" as such - it's about the effects of paging, context switching and Steam's own processing. 150 MB says a lot about that process - it's huge. Is it for good reason? Well, if I just want to play FM, I don't care about Steam... So I don't want to see Steam.

Think about it - when your game runs slow, people often recommend you close other applications, even if you have a billion gigabytes of RAM. It has nothing to do with "filling up your RAM counter" - it's more than that.

I think you'll find that *most people* in today's world of austerity own second-hand and aged computer equipment, partly because they can't afford it, and partly because they don't need it. You are saying that everybody MUST upgrade to a system that matches your high standards...

Please stop posting in this thread because your ill-informed and unwelcome demands on how we should spend our hard-earned salaries deliver nothing to the topic in hand and only serve to anger and upset others.

They can't afford it because they have a Mac. Macs are twice the price or more of a PC that you can build yourself.

Originally Posted by mantralux

Well you seem to want to drag this into some kind of juvenile Mac vs PC debate, but you're completely missing the point in the process.

Even if his computer is a "10-year old piece of crap" (which it isn't) it shouldn't matter - the point is that Steam is another resource layer between him and the game, and isn't optimised enough for Mac to work as well in OS X as it does in Windows. For us Mac users, Steam mostly feels like a sloppy port of PC code.

It's 160mbs for crying out loud. I haven't met someone outside of this forum who doesn't have 4gb of ram, Mac or PC.

Many people waste their money on overpriced pieces of crap like Macs when they can build their own for half the price. You can't even replace parts on a Mac, at least pre-built PCs you can. And they complain that they can't afford internet? 35% proccessing power? This guy must have a ****ing 10 year old computer? I'd like to hear the specs on this piece of crap. 149MB is nothing compared to the 4gb most people have.

Thank you for acknowledging the ignorance shown in your earlier post, it's refreshing to see such humility around here.

The minimum supported specs for FM11 state 'Memory - XP-512MB Ram, Vista/W7 - 1GB Ram'. They may appear to be dated to you but it is only fair to assume that people with those sorts of specs are still playing FM.

Pro-consumer, anti-DRM. Never be satisfied with any answer. Dig until you drop.

Posts

6,670

Originally Posted by Dune297

Sure, the Apple OS might look nicer on the outside, but to pay twice the price and more for something lesser than a PC is absolutely absurd.

People don't pay for pure functionality - user experience is a genuine factor in purchasing software.

A modern-day Unix shell is more functional than Windows 7, but it is obvious that your argument doesn't hold - few consumers like Unix interfaces.

Plus, this argument does not hold for free OSes like Ubuntu - which are infinitely better than Windows 7, so are infinitely better value for money. So why do people not ditch Windows and Macs, and go for Ubuntu?

The reason is simple - there's way more to an operating system than functionality, and there's other factors aside from functionality that determine price. Plus people are willing to pay extra for "nice". Look at brand loyalty, for example, or paying a little extra for better customer service.

And I can do a bit of programming to make websites like this on my PC. I don't understand what you're getting at?

umm... did you read anything on her websites? anything at all? did you even visit? you really are an ignorant troll, nothing more... were you against Steam-only FM you'd no doubt be infracted as such... funny how censorship works isn't it?

Ive read all 12 pages & here is my opinion, I think that I will not be buying FM2012 as I too do not want to have Steam on my computer, I dont care if its better then it was a few years ago its my choice and I will not be made to look stupid or petty from suck ups on here, I like over 50 people on this thread alone will not buy it so you are looking at a loss of 50 x 30 = 1500 pound loss just because they dont want to use Steam, you say it will deter some people from getting pirated copies of games instead of buying it, the main reason why people download stuff i.e films, music, games etc cos in this current climate you cant afford to buy things, I aint saying I download Football Manager cos Ive always bought a copy despite the frustrating bugs, I think you will end up regretting this in the long run & I just hope its changed back to normal for the release of FM2013 which I look forward to playing on, Ill continue to play on FM2011 and I wish you luck on here.

They can't afford it because they have a Mac. Macs are twice the price or more of a PC that you can build yourself.

As you grow older, you will realise one simple truth about Mac vs PC; it's all down to preference. Not specs, not price, preference. I prefer Macs, as I can't build my own laptops. I have a PC tower gaming machine that I built, so that I can play some stuff I can't on my Mac. But I prefer to work in OS X. That doesn't mean I have anything against Windows.

Dune can you get of the anti-mac line? it's not helpful & dilutes anything you post.

Surely you can see that the proposed software is not optimised for a particular piece of hardware & this should have been considered when taking this action.

I'm anti-mac because I see so many people complaining about how much memory Steam uses as well as how they can't afford internet. If they can afford a Mac, then they can afford internet. Simple as that. I guarantee I can build a PC 3x the quality for the same price or less as anyone's Mac.

Pro-consumer, anti-DRM. Never be satisfied with any answer. Dig until you drop.

Posts

6,670

Originally Posted by Dune297

That's the absolute minimum. Using system requirements is rather absurd. I'm sure if Steam had a recommended, it would be around 2gb or more.

I think it's recommended, really... Steam does not do incredibly intensive calculations or store tons of data (hence RAM usage < 200 MB for most). It is one of those applications where the recommended and minimum requirements are close.

As you grow older, you will realise one simple truth about Mac vs PC; it's all down to preference. Not specs, not price, preference. I prefer Macs, as I can't build my own laptops. I have a PC tower gaming machine that I built, so that I can play some stuff I can't on my Mac. But I prefer to work in OS X. That doesn't mean I have anything against Windows.

But that comes later in life for some.

If you have the money, I'm all for it. Half the people here can't afford a proper monthly internet bill and they are complaining as if 200mb of ram is a lot. Since most of them are on Macs, I guarantee if they had consulted somebody about it, they would have got the same build for 1/3 the price.

One of the SEGA guys will have to answer that I'm afraid as I just don't know how it works there personally.

I'm not sure there's much that can be said though, we're not allowed to sell the game in Germany full stop. We'd love to, but for legal reasons that have already been explained we're just not allowed to.

As such, I'm not sure we'd even be allowed to advise you on any ways of getting around that as it could be seen as officially encouraging people to break the law.

A fair and honest answer Bertie, thank you. Can we trust that you will make SEGA aware of the question?

There is a noticeable amount of opposition to SI/SEGA's decision to go Steam-Only, there is also a noticeable amount of a "we don't care" attitude from SI/SEGA...

The enormous lack of respect for the current customer-base is unbelievable... we're the people that buy your game, not pirate it! We should have a choice!

I've made mine

Derailing the thread? Hardly? I'm explaining to people that they shouldn't have a Mac in the first place if they #1 Can't afford internet, and #2 Can't afford a decent Mac. If Steam is taking up 45% of your CPU usage, then your computer is far outdated and you really need an upgrade. Steam is taking just 3% of mine.

The enormous lack of respect for the current customer-base is unbelievable... we're the people that buy your game, not pirate it! We should have a choice!

The funniest thing is that the majority of people who pirate games aren't even potential consumers - they have no intention of buying it in the first place. I can't see this as being anything other than SI shooting themselves in the foot.

Derailing the thread? Hardly? I'm explaining to people that they shouldn't have a Mac in the first place if they #1 Can't afford internet, and #2 Can't afford a decent Mac. If Steam is taking up 45% of your CPU usage, then your computer is far outdated and you really need an upgrade. Steam is taking just 3% of mine.

Again; the problem isn't Mac, the problem is that the Steam app for Mac isn't as optimised for OS X as it is for Windows. That's why it draws more resources for me than it does for you, even though my machine has high specs.

As you grow older, you will realise one simple truth about Mac vs PC; it's all down to preference. Not specs, not price, preference. I prefer Macs, as I can't build my own laptops. I have a PC tower gaming machine that I built, so that I can play some stuff I can't on my Mac. But I prefer to work in OS X. That doesn't mean I have anything against Windows.

But that comes later in life for some.

Well said. My only reason for ditching Mac was an interoperability, ecosystem, and some annoyances with Apple itself rather than specs, price or preference.

What annoys me in the discussion is that preference always descends into some sanctimoniously entrenched bitchfest over brand loyalty rather than just accepting other peoples choice.

Again; the problem isn't Mac, the problem is that the Steam app for Mac isn't as optimised for OS X as it is for Windows. That's why it draws more resources for me than it does for you, even though my machine has high specs.

Yes, reminds me of iTunes on Windows. (not a dig, just an observation as a user of several OS's at some point)

Really is amusing and amazing that people will shoot themselves in the foot by not getting FM12 just because they are too stubborn to not get Steam, if you have a PC made in the last 3-4 years Steam should work with no problems at all, and unless your PC is ancient, then this really shouldnt be an issue. Ive had Steam for what must be 3-4 years and never had a single problem with it, download speeds are good, can run offline very easily, its running at about 40mbs atm, not slowing up my pc, i dont even notice it unless i want to play a Steam game.

Will wager that most of the people who say they wont be getting FM12 will have it within a month of release anyway though

Just read this, and out of curiosity (not siding one way or the other) - if it is illegal to resell a game, why are GAME, HMV and Gamestation not having any trouble buying and selling pre-owned games? This practice is literally accepted by all the publishers and developers without any lawsuit being made. If it was illegal, I assure you, these three companies would have stopped by now or they would have been facing very heavy consequences. Not to mention that eBay has a section entirely devoted to this practice. Are you sure it's illegal?

Those people that aren't going to buy FM12 because of Steam, you are not big PC gamers are you?

You are basically forced to use Steam for PC gaming at the moment. Most big PC releases use Steamworks for DRM, we might not like it but we have to live with it if we want to play those games. I'm not a massive fan, Ive always tried to avoid it if possible and certainly never bought anything from them as it is a rip off. There are irritating things about it (having to manually tweak settings off for every game instead of having them turned off by default and giving you the option to turn them back on for individual games), but it is the least offensive Online DRM and it generally works better then everything else (GfWL, Ubisoft crap, etc...). Offline hasn't always worked perfectly for me, and that has been massively annoying but I wouldn't avoid a game because it was Steam unlike GfWL, Ubisoft, crap etc... On PC it barely effects a decent spec PC performance, it obviously has problems on Mac but gaming on a Mac has other problems anyway (chiefly that hardly any games bother to port over to Mac).

Really is amusing and amazing that people will shoot themselves in the foot by not getting FM12 just because they are too stubborn to not get Steam, if you have a PC made in the last 3-4 years Steam should work with no problems at all, and unless your PC is ancient, then this really shouldnt be an issue. Ive had Steam for what must be 3-4 years and never had a single problem with it, download speeds are good, can run offline very easily, its running at about 40mbs atm, not slowing up my pc, i dont even notice it unless i want to play a Steam game.

While I guess most would have computers being able to have Steam running, I reckon a lot more have unstable Internet connections.

Also, I seriously dislike the idea that a company can decide on their own whim that I'm not allowed to play a game I've bought. Of course this happens very rarely. There's also the risk of the company (Steam company, Valve?) going bust, IIRC there was a music provider who went bust a few years ago (I don't remember the name), where people who have bought their music no longer could listen to it since they no longer could be authenticated.

I'm not that surprised of the decision SEGA and SI have made, although unhappy about it, but the timing of it is astonishing. If you bring news, which is likely to create negative reactions, wouldn't you normally do it at a time when you could reply and allay the fears which many apparently have, therefor not doing it Friday afternoon so the "outrage" won't built for 2½ day without much "fire extinguishing".

You can run Steam in offline mode, and play games in offline mode. I have, and have played FM2009 and FM2011 exactly like that. Activation is a once-off.

Also, sort of off the point, but saying Steam is a rip-off is laughable: they're one of the most competitive digital distributors, and there are always amazing deals and bundles on. Valve are probably the most admirable company working in videogames, and Steam probably the single most important piece of software.

Like, you kinda have to be a luddite not to appreciate it as an accomplishment.

Really is amusing and amazing that people will shoot themselves in the foot by not getting FM12 just because they are too stubborn to not get Steam, if you have a PC made in the last 3-4 years Steam should work with no problems at all, and unless your PC is ancient, then this really shouldnt be an issue. Ive had Steam for what must be 3-4 years and never had a single problem with it, download speeds are good, can run offline very easily, its running at about 40mbs atm, not slowing up my pc, i dont even notice it unless i want to play a Steam game.

Will wager that most of the people who say they wont be getting FM12 will have it within a month of release anyway though

Some people have principles about being forced into doing anything against their will. Most people would be furious at being forced to install something that is totally unnecessary. Others, like myself, have bitter experience of using FM and Steam together (FM09) which was also on a machine bought for the purpose.

As for your wager, perhaps you'd like to state an amount saying that I would be one of those to have it by November end? Before you do though, bear in mind that I walked away from buying a 40 grand car simply because, when I asked for a brochure, I was told to download it! Not, sure I'll go get you one, not I'm afraid I have to download it, no... You (I) will have to download it... yeah? You think? How about I buy my car from somewhere that has got a brochure? (which I did...). To play FM12 I must install Steam? How much do you really want to wager that I won't?

i just want to say: please, to the people that want to say no to STEAM: don't just make problems on the forum, DO NOT BUY THE GAME DEFINITELY, that one is the only way to have some attention on our "NO TO STEAM".

i'm also disappointed about...the SI\SEGA staff because they cannot say to us: -doesn't change anything for the genuine customers- or something like that.

i'm genuine customers too of FM\CM by 10-11 years....and for me change a lot because i cannot play anymore with FM.

Mankind is the only creature smart enough to know its own history, and dumb enough to ignore it.

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Originally Posted by Lazaru5

To play FM12 I must install Steam? How much do you really want to wager that I won't?

How much do you want to wager that if you don't stop repeating this over and over and over you won't get an infraction, we get your point, indeed I have some sympathy for your viewpoint (even though I agree with others that you're rather taking a stance that unnecessarily penalises you)
However, you've made it abundantly clear so often that it's becoming spam, really you don't need to tell us again, nobody can be in any doubt about your views on the subject.

Right now on my machine I have it open with FM11 running and it's eating a whopping 70MB of my 4GB of RAM, and putting a hurt of 00% on my CPU.

What people don't seem to realize is that using Steam to play PC games in 2011 is sort of like using IE/Firefox/Chrome to browse the Internet. It's long since been adopted as the standard, and with good reason: it's great.

Not much for me to say really - all the Steam bashing I could do has already been done. What I will do is register my unhappiness with SI and SEGA by virtue of this post.

I've recently graduated from University, and I'm sure other people are in the same boat as me when I say this, job hunting hasn't yet been as successful as I'd hoped. Consequently my finances aren't as good as they could be. I planned on budgeting my weekly spend in the lead up to release so that I could afford to buy FM2012 without feeling guilty. However with this announcement and my previous bad experiences of using Steam I have decided that I'm not going to buy or preorder FM2012. I am quite happy to continue using FM2011.

That is not to say I won't play FM2012, I have my birthday in December and obviously Christmas, so it's extremely likely that I will get a copy (my friends and family all know of my love of the game). I don't want to use Steam and am unhappy about having to do so, but I am resigned to this being the case. However I certainly won't be spending my money to buy the game because of it.

Also, thanks to x42bn6 for his informative posts. I've started following you on twitter as a result.

Also, sort of off the point, but saying Steam is a rip-off is laughable: they're one of the most competitive digital distributors, and there are always amazing deals and bundles on. Valve are probably the most admirable company working in videogames, and Steam probably the single most important piece of software.

Steam is a rip-off outside of the amazing deals and bundles. Almost every single game can be bought cheaper retail when they are not offer, you might have to look around a bit but I'd rather save £5-£10 and have to wait maybe a couple of hours for the postman to turn up. SI might not get as money if I buy it off Amazon, Play, etc... rather then digitally, but that is their problem not mine, until they are willing to come around and upgrade the infrastructure where I live (shouldn't cost more then a couple of million pounds, sortitoutSI ) I will continue to buy retail.

While I guess most would have computers being able to have Steam running, I reckon a lot more have unstable Internet connections.

The activation ( if you buy the disc ) takes about 5 seconds, even if you have an unstable connection, will take very little time

Also, I seriously dislike the idea that a company can decide on their own whim that I'm not allowed to play a game I've bought. Of course this happens very rarely. There's also the risk of the company (Steam company, Valve?) going bust, IIRC there was a music provider who went bust a few years ago (I don't remember the name), where people who have bought their music no longer could listen to it since they no longer could be authenticated.

Valve is a massive company, they arent going to go bust anytime soon

I'm not that surprised of the decision SEGA and SI have made, although unhappy about it, but the timing of it is astonishing. If you bring news, which is likely to create negative reactions, wouldn't you normally do it at a time when you could reply and allay the fears which many apparently have, therefor not doing it Friday afternoon so the "outrage" won't built for 2½ day without much "fire extinguishing".

All news will bring reactions, a few people are unhappy about this, fine, but if you have a decent internet connection, there is nothing to be angry about, even if you dont have one, you could go to a hotspot ( if you have a laptop ), get a wireless dongle, tether their phone or even take your computer round a friends/relatives who do have internet access. The only people who should be angry about this are those who have literally no access to the internet afer the methods ive listed above, it would be interesting to know how many of them there are, of course, they wont be reading this though

Originally Posted by Lazaru5

Some people have principles about being forced into doing anything against their will. Most people would be furious at being forced to install something that is totally unnecessary. Others, like myself, have bitter experience of using FM and Steam together (FM09) which was also on a machine bought for the purpose.

Its nothing to do with principles, its all aboiut being stubborn, pig-headed and being unable to accept change, ok, i accept some people may have had a bad experience with steam a few years ago, Steam has changed since then. You arent being forced to install something against your will, dont buy the game, the only one losing out is you. I imagine MOST people will be perfectly happy/ambivalent about this change, mainly because there is no actual problem ( unless as mentioned above, you literally have no internet access )

As for your wager, perhaps you'd like to state an amount saying that I would be one of those to have it by November end? Before you do though, bear in mind that I walked away from buying a 40 grand car simply because, when I asked for a brochure, I was told to download it! Not, sure I'll go get you one, not I'm afraid I have to download it, no... You (I) will have to download it... yeah? You think? How about I buy my car from somewhere that has got a brochure? (which I did...). To play FM12 I must install Steam? How much do you really want to wager that I won't?

You are just 1 person ( not the majority i mentioned ), if you are literally too stubborn/lazy to go to a bit of effort to be able to play a game or buy a car, then your stubborness/laziness is only going to cost one person, you.

What people don't seem to realize is that using Steam to play PC games in 2011 is sort of like using IE/Firefox/Chrome to browse the Internet. It's long since been adopted as the standard, and with good reason: it's great.

I've bought three PC games since January, all digital downloads and not one of them requires Steam. Two used a different sort of online activation and they load nothing extra when playing while the third I was emailed a an activation code.

Mankind is the only creature smart enough to know its own history, and dumb enough to ignore it.

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People who've had problems with Steam in the past would obviously be concerned, although I believe it's improved enormously over the last couple of years and has never given me any problems.

Those who haven't even used it should really try before they call it a tool of the devil.

Those who refuse because it's third party software are making an irrational stand, nothing much on their PC would work without third party software so the only realistic objection can be that it affects performance or detracts from security, I don't believe it does either.

Ha, sorry but what a joke. Like others, I don't care if it's just running in the background, I don't care if it doesn't take up to much space etc. I will NOT be forced to install Steam on my computer. There might not be a law against forcing folk to install other programs to play games and hell it may happen all the time but you are not dictating what I put on my pc. End of story. So that's another buyer lost.

You are 'forced' to install an OS on your computer if you want it to start, and a browser if you want to go on the web, and Office (or equivalent) if you want to do word processing or spreadsheets. You are 'forced' to install iTunes if you own an iPod. You are 'forced' to install any number of piece of third party software to do anything on a computer, and I would wager that the same people who are complaining about the principle here have three different spyware-riddled browser toolbars on the go right now.

Ha, sorry but what a joke. Like others, I don't care if it's just running in the background, I don't care if it doesn't take up to much space etc. I will NOT be forced to install Steam on my computer. There might not be a law against forcing folk to install other programs to play games and hell it may happen all the time but you are not dictating what I put on my pc. End of story. So that's another buyer lost.

1) Yes.
2) If you double-click your FM shortcut, it will automatically open Steam and then launch the game.
3) The patches will install automatically when available, but you can tell them not to.
4) See above: you can choose not to update the game.
5) Your FM save games are located on your PC, though some of your settings can be saved to a cloud as well.
6) Yes, yes, and yes.

Is finding it difficult to settle in the new forum. Is homesick. Is Unsettled.

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Originally Posted by Shake Appeal

You are 'forced' to install an OS on your computer if you want it to start, and a browser if you want to go on the web, and Office (or equivalent) if you want to do word processing or spreadsheets. You are 'forced' to install iTunes if you own an iPod. You are 'forced' to install any number of piece of third party software to do anything on a computer, and I would wager that the same people who are complaining about the principle here have three different spyware-riddled browser toolbars on the go right now.

SI are not dictating what you put on your PC, you are.

Straw man argument, as others have said. In all those, you have a choice. Not only that, but they are all actually needed. The OS is needed to allow you to interact with hardware, a browser is needed to interact with html and other web code, and a word processor is needed (unless notepad suffices) for you to make a document.

Steam is not needed to play a game - it is not the only way possible for a game to run on a computer, in the same way that it is only possible to view webpages in a browser of some description. Stop using those "arguments" because they don't wash.

Forcing people to use Steam is just poor. No one should be forced to do anything if they want to play a game, or run any software, or listen to some music.

You are 'forced' to install an OS on your computer if you want it to start, and a browser if you want to go on the web, and Office (or equivalent) if you want to do word processing or spreadsheets. You are 'forced' to install iTunes if you own an iPod. You are 'forced' to install any number of piece of third party software to do anything on a computer, and I would wager that the same people who are complaining about the principle here have three different spyware-riddled browser toolbars on the go right now.

SI are not dictating what you put on your PC, you are.

I think the big difference with those examples is that it has always been the norm, we knew that the additional software was needed before we used it. A lot of us have spent the last 18(ish) years playing CM/FM without any additional software, it is the change that is the issue for a lot of us rather than the software itself.

1) I buy the game, disc version, and install it on my PC. I need then to install Steam and activate the game. After this, can i let steam offline forever?

2) Every time i want to play FM, do i need to run steam first? Or i just need to double-clik my FM shortcut has i currently do?

3) When a patch is released, can i download it from SI website and install it manually as i currently do?

4) Am i obliged to patch the game? Or can i play the game with the first version, even after the release of 1 or 2 patches?

5) Where my FM save games are located? In my PC or in some server?

6) Can i still use programs like FMRTE or Fmscout if i want? And what about custom graphics?

Thks in advance to any repplys! And by the way, i think it would be great if a post were made answering this kind of questions! for me this is the important stuff!

1. Yes, it should run in offline mode forever.
2. Double-click the FM shortcut and it'll launch Steam automatically
3. I don't know
4. I don't think so. You can turn off auto-updates, but I've never tried it.
5. On your PC, in the same way as all previous FM games have
6. Yes and yes.