Singletrack Forum » Topic: Should Bridleways (and Footpaths) be closed if they are properly muddy?http://singletrackworld.com/forum/topic/should-bridleways-and-footpaths-be-closed-if-they-are-properly-muddy
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butcher on "Should Bridleways (and Footpaths) be closed if they are properly muddy?"http://singletrackworld.com/forum/topic/should-bridleways-and-footpaths-be-closed-if-they-are-properly-muddy/page/2#post-5749114
Wed, 05 Feb 2014 20:13:02 +0000butcher5749114@http://singletrackworld.com/forum/<p>I think maxtorque is on point in this thread really. They're there to be used. I have seen ROWs closed for repairs and maintenance. But to close them because of mud is madness. Like there's not gonna be mud in the countryside... We need to be realistic here! It happens. They get muddy. Sometimes they look a bit of a mess. The world will not collapse in on itself. </p>
<p>That said, I live in the desolate north, where many ROWs see very little traffic. I could imagine it's quite different down in that south.
</p>Del on "Should Bridleways (and Footpaths) be closed if they are properly muddy?"http://singletrackworld.com/forum/topic/should-bridleways-and-footpaths-be-closed-if-they-are-properly-muddy/page/2#post-5748862
Wed, 05 Feb 2014 18:54:10 +0000Del5748862@http://singletrackworld.com/forum/<p>don't know where many of you get the idea that you're not allowed on footpaths. your right to use is not enshrined in law, but that does not mean that you are prohibited from using them. <img src="http://singletrackworld.com/forum/my-plugins/bbcode-buttons/default/icon_wink.gif" title=";)" class="bb_smilies" alt=""/> </p>
<p>same issue with bikes on some trails where the soil is poor. mate cut a trail that suffers really badly in the wet. we didn't ride it when it was wet. simple. lots of other people found it, rode it whatever the weather, now it's a rutted, sloppy, greasy, shitty mess. just treat it as sacrificial these days, and focus maintenance on other bits of trail.<br />
there are idiots present in all user groups.</p>
<p>TBF though, a ton of walking glue supported by a shovel at each corner does a pretty decent job of **** anything it travels over...
</p>maxtorque on "Should Bridleways (and Footpaths) be closed if they are properly muddy?"http://singletrackworld.com/forum/topic/should-bridleways-and-footpaths-be-closed-if-they-are-properly-muddy/page/2#post-5748767
Wed, 05 Feb 2014 18:22:39 +0000maxtorque5748767@http://singletrackworld.com/forum/<p>And so it goes on. We have mostly banned vehicles for the damage they cause, and now we want to ban horses? Perhaps Bikes next, and then walkers. In fact, if we ban all access to our ROWs they will be conserved for ever.......</p>
<p>This i think is the crux point. A Right Of Way, is just that. It's ENTIRE point is for people to use it to move from one end of it to the other. It is not destroyed by use, in fact, exactly the opposite, it is MAINTAINED by use! Use it, or loose it applies here imo.
</p>towzer on "Should Bridleways (and Footpaths) be closed if they are properly muddy?"http://singletrackworld.com/forum/topic/should-bridleways-and-footpaths-be-closed-if-they-are-properly-muddy#post-5748712
Wed, 05 Feb 2014 18:01:00 +0000towzer5748712@http://singletrackworld.com/forum/<p>I self regulate, mainly on footpaths that are highly used/would mark badly, personally I have more of an issue with horses than vehicles(which are mainly banned in most places) - I can often ride a rut(or the bits between), but when several horses have chewed it up it and produced that clinging mix of mud/grass mixed daub it generally becomes unusable, given that vehicles were banned/TRO'd for damage I'm failing to see why horse riders aren't treated the same way
</p>the teaboy on "Should Bridleways (and Footpaths) be closed if they are properly muddy?"http://singletrackworld.com/forum/topic/should-bridleways-and-footpaths-be-closed-if-they-are-properly-muddy#post-5748688
Wed, 05 Feb 2014 17:51:33 +0000the teaboy5748688@http://singletrackworld.com/forum/<p>Even if we agreed that this was a good idea, it's practically impossible.</p>
<p>There are at least 14 fps and bws from my village. Say it takes 20mins to travel to a fp end and close it. To get both ends is 28 signs needed, or over a day's work for one village.</p>
<p>How many villages are there? Who would make the decisionto close paths, who would close them, who would pay for it, who would enforce it and who would reopen them?
</p>asterix on "Should Bridleways (and Footpaths) be closed if they are properly muddy?"http://singletrackworld.com/forum/topic/should-bridleways-and-footpaths-be-closed-if-they-are-properly-muddy#post-5748677
Wed, 05 Feb 2014 17:48:57 +0000asterix5748677@http://singletrackworld.com/forum/<p>bloody do-gooders eh <img src="http://singletrackworld.com/forum/my-plugins/bbcode-buttons/default/icon_wink.gif" title=":wink:" class="bb_smilies" alt=""/> </p>zippykona on "Should Bridleways (and Footpaths) be closed if they are properly muddy?"http://singletrackworld.com/forum/topic/should-bridleways-and-footpaths-be-closed-if-they-are-properly-muddy#post-5748676
Wed, 05 Feb 2014 17:48:21 +0000zippykona5748676@http://singletrackworld.com/forum/<p>No.
</p>maxtorque on "Should Bridleways (and Footpaths) be closed if they are properly muddy?"http://singletrackworld.com/forum/topic/should-bridleways-and-footpaths-be-closed-if-they-are-properly-muddy#post-5748667
Wed, 05 Feb 2014 17:45:00 +0000maxtorque5748667@http://singletrackworld.com/forum/<p>What is this "destroyed" word that people use? Do they mean "muddy"?</p>
<p>Let me tell you a little story..........</p>
<p>About 25 years ago, i grew up in a small oxfordshire village quite near to the Ridgeway. At the time, off roading as a leisure activity was starting to become popular, and a lot of the local byways were often quite muddy and churned up in winter. One particular track was an old Drovers road, used for centuries (AD650 is the first recorded use i could find in the county archives) to move sheep, cattle and goods between Wantage and Newbury. This was obviously classed as a byway, due to it's history, and runs pretty much due south, across the ridgeway and off towards Newbury. This track became quite muddy at times with the vehicle useage (by both recreational users and farmers), as you could imagine it would have been in say 1650, when it was used weekly to move large numbers of animals to market! However, a group of local walkers got together to "save" this track. Eventually, after much discussion, the council put in place a Traffic Regulation Order (TRO) preventing it's use by recreational traffic (cars/Motorbikes). </p>
<p>That was around 25 years ago, and at the end of last year, for the first time i went back to take a look. Well, pretty much centuries of traceable useage has been lost in as little as 25years, as it is now practically impassable by any means. Once it lost the vehicular traffic, the local landowners didn't bother with any upkeep, the track narrowed to a footpath, the fields on either side grew a bit, trees fell down over the route, and mother nature still worked her forces of erosion and weathering etc. I would guess, that in another 10 years, the right of way will have disappeared entirely.</p>
<p>So, the group who wanted to "save" this resource have really done exactly the opposite imo.
</p>DaveRambo on "Should Bridleways (and Footpaths) be closed if they are properly muddy?"http://singletrackworld.com/forum/topic/should-bridleways-and-footpaths-be-closed-if-they-are-properly-muddy#post-5748656
Wed, 05 Feb 2014 17:38:09 +0000DaveRambo5748656@http://singletrackworld.com/forum/<p>Around the bridleways of Warwickshire my experience is that bikes aren't a problem - most riders take the same line and the impact isn't that big</p>
<p>The big problem is horses that really chew it all up.</p>
<p>You can't police it and after this much rain it's very hard work - having to pedal hard downhill - so we alter our routes to avoid the really bad bits anyway
</p>bigdean on "Should Bridleways (and Footpaths) be closed if they are properly muddy?"http://singletrackworld.com/forum/topic/should-bridleways-and-footpaths-be-closed-if-they-are-properly-muddy#post-5748652
Wed, 05 Feb 2014 17:35:38 +0000bigdean5748652@http://singletrackworld.com/forum/<p>When you can stop the illegal motox and 4x4's ripping up the forrests and bridleways then you can ask others.
</p>cinnamon_girl on "Should Bridleways (and Footpaths) be closed if they are properly muddy?"http://singletrackworld.com/forum/topic/should-bridleways-and-footpaths-be-closed-if-they-are-properly-muddy#post-5748647
Wed, 05 Feb 2014 17:33:49 +0000cinnamon_girl5748647@http://singletrackworld.com/forum/<p>Hysteria. <img src="http://singletrackworld.com/forum/my-plugins/bbcode-buttons/default/icon_neutral.gif" title=":|" class="bb_smilies" alt=""/> </p>asterix on "Should Bridleways (and Footpaths) be closed if they are properly muddy?"http://singletrackworld.com/forum/topic/should-bridleways-and-footpaths-be-closed-if-they-are-properly-muddy#post-5748634
Wed, 05 Feb 2014 17:26:07 +0000asterix5748634@http://singletrackworld.com/forum/<p><blockquote>Do the Rights of Way Officers need this power? Do we need more of them?</blockquote> No and No
</p>b r on "Should Bridleways (and Footpaths) be closed if they are properly muddy?"http://singletrackworld.com/forum/topic/should-bridleways-and-footpaths-be-closed-if-they-are-properly-muddy#post-5748633
Wed, 05 Feb 2014 17:25:40 +0000b r5748633@http://singletrackworld.com/forum/<p>Or what you could do is have no actual ROW's but let everywhere be a ROW - at least for walkers/cyclists/horses. And make it so that the landowner has no responsibility to ensure they are passable. And add in a smattering of trail centres.</p>
<p>Otherwise known as Scotland. Seems to work here fine. <img src="http://singletrackworld.com/forum/my-plugins/bbcode-buttons/default/icon_smile.gif" title=":-)" class="bb_smilies" alt=""/> </p>BillOddie on "Should Bridleways (and Footpaths) be closed if they are properly muddy?"http://singletrackworld.com/forum/topic/should-bridleways-and-footpaths-be-closed-if-they-are-properly-muddy#post-5748575
Wed, 05 Feb 2014 16:58:44 +0000BillOddie5748575@http://singletrackworld.com/forum/<p><blockquote>It's not just a “mud in the countryside shocker” kinda thing. More a “certain tracks get totally ****ed if we don't lay off them when the weather has been really bad” kinda thing.</blockquote> &lt;--- This</p>
<p><blockquote>Generally I find users self-regulate their use of paths if they're particularly bad, but yes, unfortunately sometimes some are damaged</blockquote> They generally self regulate at the point when the trail becomes impassable in their eyes.</p>
<p>Maybe it does just come down to there being a lack of common sense?
</p>scu98rkr on "Should Bridleways (and Footpaths) be closed if they are properly muddy?"http://singletrackworld.com/forum/topic/should-bridleways-and-footpaths-be-closed-if-they-are-properly-muddy#post-5748461
Wed, 05 Feb 2014 16:26:24 +0000scu98rkr5748461@http://singletrackworld.com/forum/<p>I dunno, I do think some easily destroyed trails should be down graded from bridleways as the horses too easily destroy them. But i also think footpaths should be opened to cyclists as the same time.
</p>schnor on "Should Bridleways (and Footpaths) be closed if they are properly muddy?"http://singletrackworld.com/forum/topic/should-bridleways-and-footpaths-be-closed-if-they-are-properly-muddy#post-5748403
Wed, 05 Feb 2014 16:02:49 +0000schnor5748403@http://singletrackworld.com/forum/<p><blockquote>Do the Rights of Way Officers need this power?</blockquote></p>
<p>Well we do have a power to temporarily close a path (for 5 days or 6 months) if we consider a path dangerous - which can include if the surface is particularly bad - but it's rarely used on Footpaths but a bit more so with Bridleways. Poaching caused by usual path use is to be expected given the recent weather, but if its caused by something particular (cattle feeder, farm traffic, etc) it can be mitigated.</p>
<p>Generally I find users self-regulate their use of paths if they're particularly bad, but yes, unfortunately sometimes some are damaged (as mentioned above, unenclosed moorland paths are a problem), and its at this point where your Rights of Way team should become involved.</p>
<p>I think if we were to go down the route of saying 'if path X = Y% mud then temporarily close it' - which is the only easy way I could think of how to do it easily - would encourage cries of "But this path is Y+1% muddy, close it NOOOWWW" or indeed "But this path is Y-1% muddy, open it back up NOOOWWW". And of course it might encourage people to deliberately damage a path solely for the purpose of closing it.</p>
<p>Byways / UCR's damaged by lawful (and unlawful) vehicular use is more of a problem though, again, particularly on moorland, but predominantly for the expense in putting right any damage.</p>
<p>[edit]</p>
<p>forgot to say, you can't really 'close' a path even if its dangerous, it either needs a temporary closure to (attempt to) repair it, THEN a formal diversion order to realign it.
</p>teamhurtmore on "Should Bridleways (and Footpaths) be closed if they are properly muddy?"http://singletrackworld.com/forum/topic/should-bridleways-and-footpaths-be-closed-if-they-are-properly-muddy#post-5748353
Wed, 05 Feb 2014 15:50:00 +0000teamhurtmore5748353@http://singletrackworld.com/forum/<p>No but we should all apply common sense about using them.
</p>votchy on "Should Bridleways (and Footpaths) be closed if they are properly muddy?"http://singletrackworld.com/forum/topic/should-bridleways-and-footpaths-be-closed-if-they-are-properly-muddy#post-5748346
Wed, 05 Feb 2014 15:47:57 +0000votchy5748346@http://singletrackworld.com/forum/<p>Riding in mud is ace, what's the problem?
</p>jock-muttley on "Should Bridleways (and Footpaths) be closed if they are properly muddy?"http://singletrackworld.com/forum/topic/should-bridleways-and-footpaths-be-closed-if-they-are-properly-muddy#post-5748215
Wed, 05 Feb 2014 15:19:00 +0000jock-muttley5748215@http://singletrackworld.com/forum/<p>To me its just traffic as a whole, there's no point in going all tribal and blaming one particular group for damage - bar motorbikes as crossers seem to be able to cause a lot of damage very quickly but then they shouldn't be on there in the first place.</p>
<p>Paths cut up in this weather full stop, There is one trail local to me that goes around a coastal headland and in recent weeks this has just got wider and wider as people avoid the centre. The issue is that the sides of the trail are just far too soft to support the traffic so its cutting up badly and turning into a quagmire (giggity), the centre is still hard where the gravel has been laid and fine to ride/walk on albeit under the puddles, the edges are impossible to get traction on. </p>
<p>Its impossible to police but what doesn't help are the restrictive land access laws in England that ties us to bridleways or dedicated cycle routes. Scotland is far more enlightened.</p>
<p>And this probably makes no sense lol
</p>bajsyckel on "Should Bridleways (and Footpaths) be closed if they are properly muddy?"http://singletrackworld.com/forum/topic/should-bridleways-and-footpaths-be-closed-if-they-are-properly-muddy#post-5748039
Wed, 05 Feb 2014 14:30:04 +0000bajsyckel5748039@http://singletrackworld.com/forum/<p>It's not just a “mud in the countryside shocker” kinda thing. More a “certain tracks get totally ****ed if we don't lay off them when the weather has been really bad” kinda thing. Most riders I know will avoid local routes that get damaged when conditions aren't suitable to use them. I'm amazed at the people who insist on using the same tracks regardless and then (evidently) ride around all the boggy bits (see also those who insist on riding along the side of singletrack rather than actually in the track). I always imagined you should leave the tracks in a state you'd like to find them in* – and if you can't do that then you shouldn't be there – but people should want to do this, not be forced. The logistics of controlling it would make closure impossible to enforce in any case.</p>
<p>I can understand that for horse riders, mxers, 4x4ists etc tracks being an impassible boggy mess (to others) is not really an issue for how they enjoy their days out hence why they don't appear to give a crap about messing up tracks for everyone else. ROW legislation has virtually no connection to the sustainability of use by various user groups, but I don't see this makes it right for cyclists to demand the luxury to do whatever they want regardless, complain about conditions being shit, and then next weekend go somewhere else and do the same.</p>
<p>[*i.e. this bit is fun <em>because</em> it's twisty/ narrow/ rocky etc. – so don't cut the corners/ ride off the side and make it straight/ wide/ dull etc. etc.... And conversely, nobody likes hub-deep peat so don't turn a massive area into hub-deep peat by riding ever-wider lines on the edge of a boggy bit].
</p>