Post by whiterabbit on Sept 5, 2016 16:12:31 GMT -5

yES i AM COMING AT IT FROM THE POSITION OF A SEXUALLY ABUSED PERSON AND FAMILY AND FRIENDS ARE OF COURSE IMPORTANT BUT THERE ARE CIRCUMSTANCES WHERE NO CARE SUPPORT OR LOVE HAVE BEEN SHOWN GOOD TO HEAR YOU WORKED IN THIS FIELD

Post by rational on Sept 5, 2016 16:20:54 GMT -5

yES i AM COMING AT IT FROM THE POSITION OF A SEXUALLY ABUSED PERSON AND FAMILY AND FRIENDS ARE OF COURSE IMPORTANT BUT THERE ARE CIRCUMSTANCES WHERE NO CARE SUPPORT OR LOVE HAVE BEEN SHOWN GOOD TO HEAR YOU WORKED IN THIS FIELD

Are you relating to the sexual abuse or the problems resulting, from what you are saying, a dysfunctional family?

Post by fixit on Sept 5, 2016 16:24:15 GMT -5

Terrible the position victims are left in .On there own NO CARE ,LOVE,OR HELP This is so wrong.

Do they not have family or friends?

Usually, CSA splits families and friends.

Caution: My posts are my opinions only and are not intended to offend other members. You're entitled to your opinion, as I am mine!Let us behave decently, as in the daytime, not in carousing and drunkenness, not in sexual immorality and debauchery, not in dissension and jealousy. ~ Romans 13:13 The acts of the flesh are obvious: sexual immorality, impurity and debauchery. ~ Galatians 5:19Have nothing to do with the fruitless deeds of darkness, but rather expose them. ~ Ephesians 5:11

Post by fixit on Sept 5, 2016 17:54:44 GMT -5

If the abuser is a family member (parent) I can see some support for this statement but otherwise is this indeed the case?

My experience has been, in cases where the abuser was not a family member, that once the abuse has been brought out into the open that the family will rally around and support the victim.

The abuser is typically a trusted person, often a member of the family or a friend of the family.

Caution: My posts are my opinions only and are not intended to offend other members. You're entitled to your opinion, as I am mine!Let us behave decently, as in the daytime, not in carousing and drunkenness, not in sexual immorality and debauchery, not in dissension and jealousy. ~ Romans 13:13 The acts of the flesh are obvious: sexual immorality, impurity and debauchery. ~ Galatians 5:19Have nothing to do with the fruitless deeds of darkness, but rather expose them. ~ Ephesians 5:11

Post by rational on Sept 5, 2016 20:30:23 GMT -5

If the abuser is a family member (parent) I can see some support for this statement but otherwise is this indeed the case?

My experience has been, in cases where the abuser was not a family member, that once the abuse has been brought out into the open that the family will rally around and support the victim.

The abuser is typically a trusted person, often a member of the family or a friend of the family.

Yes they are but I excepted the situations when the abusers were family members.If the family defends the abuser and not the victim the abused is not only dealing with the abuse but with a dysfunctional family.

I had been going on the idea that the discussion was about abuse by a worker but perhaps I was in error.Given that most abuse is by family members I guess the statement that usually child sexual abuse splits families is accurate.

I was perhaps mistaken in thinking that whiterabbit was talking about abuse by a worker.

Post by joanna on Sept 5, 2016 20:35:05 GMT -5

Unless the abuser is a family member why would the victim's main support come from outside the family?

When he accusations or charges are made against a minister of religion for CSA, family members who place the rights of a religious organisation / church above the rights of an individual would potentially distance themselves from the victim. This would protect their status as a faithful, conforming bearer of the flag. The needs of a damaged victim of sexual abuse pales into insignificance when compared to the loss of eternal salvation?

This is the tone of blackmail hanging over the faithful and one more reason to enable all to replace faith with reason.

Post by rational on Sept 5, 2016 20:42:06 GMT -5

Unless the abuser is a family member why would the victim's main support come from outside the family?

When he accusations or charges are made against a minister of religion for CSA, family members who place the rights of a religious organisation / church above the rights of an individual would potentially distance themselves from the victim. This would protect their status as a faithful, conforming bearer of the flag. The needs of a damaged victim of sexual abuse pales into insignificance when compared to the loss of eternal salvation?

This is the tone of blackmail hanging over the faithful and one more reason to enable all to replace faith with reason.

And the issues are, as I mentioned, two fold - being abused and being a member of s dysfunctional family.

Post by rational on Sept 5, 2016 20:59:39 GMT -5

So in this context, "family" has an almost mafia type ring to it in that it refers to the religious organisation rather than only kinsfolk?

No, I meant family in the normal way. Having a member of a family abused and then having the rest of the family not be supportive.Family members telling an abused child just to forget about it, not tell anyone, and continue on as if everything was alright is the definition of a dysfunctional family.Leaders of an organization telling victims not to report being abused is the definition of a criminal act.

Post by rational on Sept 5, 2016 23:46:26 GMT -5

If a family member is aware of the abuse and fails to report, are they not also criminally negligent.

This has been a gray area in the past. For example, some states considered husband-wife communications to be privileged communications and this was used to excuse spouses from reporting abuse. Lately these laws have changed but the charges usually are not failure to report but child endangerment. Child endangerment may occur through an act or the failure to act (omission).

Post by fixit on Sept 6, 2016 0:15:25 GMT -5

Unless the abuser is a family member why would the victim's main support come from outside the family?

When he accusations or charges are made against a minister of religion for CSA, family members who place the rights of a religious organisation / church above the rights of an individual would potentially distance themselves from the victim. This would protect their status as a faithful, conforming bearer of the flag. The needs of a damaged victim of sexual abuse pales into insignificance when compared to the loss of eternal salvation?

This is the tone of blackmail hanging over the faithful and one more reason to enable all to replace faith with reason.

That's what happens, well said.

With respect to CSA, faith should not get in the way of reason and justice.

Caution: My posts are my opinions only and are not intended to offend other members. You're entitled to your opinion, as I am mine!Let us behave decently, as in the daytime, not in carousing and drunkenness, not in sexual immorality and debauchery, not in dissension and jealousy. ~ Romans 13:13 The acts of the flesh are obvious: sexual immorality, impurity and debauchery. ~ Galatians 5:19Have nothing to do with the fruitless deeds of darkness, but rather expose them. ~ Ephesians 5:11

Post by fixit on Sept 6, 2016 0:18:52 GMT -5

So in this context, "family" has an almost mafia type ring to it in that it refers to the religious organisation rather than only kinsfolk?

No, I meant family in the normal way. Having a member of a family abused and then having the rest of the family not be supportive.Family members telling an abused child just to forget about it, not tell anyone, and continue on as if everything was alright is the definition of a dysfunctional family.Leaders of an organization telling victims not to report being abused is the definition of a criminal act.

There will be a great many dysfunctional families then, according to your definition.

Caution: My posts are my opinions only and are not intended to offend other members. You're entitled to your opinion, as I am mine!Let us behave decently, as in the daytime, not in carousing and drunkenness, not in sexual immorality and debauchery, not in dissension and jealousy. ~ Romans 13:13 The acts of the flesh are obvious: sexual immorality, impurity and debauchery. ~ Galatians 5:19Have nothing to do with the fruitless deeds of darkness, but rather expose them. ~ Ephesians 5:11

Post by rational on Sept 6, 2016 0:33:21 GMT -5

No, I meant family in the normal way. Having a member of a family abused and then having the rest of the family not be supportive.Family members telling an abused child just to forget about it, not tell anyone, and continue on as if everything was alright is the definition of a dysfunctional family.Leaders of an organization telling victims not to report being abused is the definition of a criminal act.

There will be a great many dysfunctional families then, according to your definition.

It is not my definition. A dysfunctional family is where there is often child neglect on the part of parents and it happens so often that family members learn to accommodate it and come to believe it is normal behavior. In this case the example was only the neglect of not reporting but it could also be the abuse as well.

I would think of it rather as deceived family.

OK. Who is deceived? The victim? The abuser? All other family members?

Post by rational on Sept 6, 2016 0:36:23 GMT -5

rational When he accusations or charges are made against a minister of religion for CSA, family members who place the rights of a religious organisation / church above the rights of an individual would potentially distance themselves from the victim. This would protect their status as a faithful, conforming bearer of the flag. The needs of a damaged victim of sexual abuse pales into insignificance when compared to the loss of eternal salvation?

This is the tone of blackmail hanging over the faithful and one more reason to enable all to replace faith with reason.

That's what happens, well said.

With respect to CSA, faith should not get in the way of reason and justice.

Do you think that Abraham's willingness to kill his son was a positive or negative act?

Post by fixit on Sept 6, 2016 1:03:54 GMT -5

There will be a great many dysfunctional families then, according to your definition.

It is not my definition. A dysfunctional family is where there is often child neglect on the part of parents and it happens so often that family members learn to accommodate it and come to believe it is normal behavior. In this case the example was only the neglect of not reporting but it could also be the abuse as well.

I would think of it rather as deceived family.

OK. Who is deceived? The victim? The abuser? All other family members?

Caution: My posts are my opinions only and are not intended to offend other members. You're entitled to your opinion, as I am mine!Let us behave decently, as in the daytime, not in carousing and drunkenness, not in sexual immorality and debauchery, not in dissension and jealousy. ~ Romans 13:13 The acts of the flesh are obvious: sexual immorality, impurity and debauchery. ~ Galatians 5:19Have nothing to do with the fruitless deeds of darkness, but rather expose them. ~ Ephesians 5:11

Caution: My posts are my opinions only and are not intended to offend other members. You're entitled to your opinion, as I am mine!Let us behave decently, as in the daytime, not in carousing and drunkenness, not in sexual immorality and debauchery, not in dissension and jealousy. ~ Romans 13:13 The acts of the flesh are obvious: sexual immorality, impurity and debauchery. ~ Galatians 5:19Have nothing to do with the fruitless deeds of darkness, but rather expose them. ~ Ephesians 5:11

Post by rational on Sept 6, 2016 6:58:30 GMT -5

It is not my definition. A dysfunctional family is where there is often child neglect on the part of parents and it happens so often that family members learn to accommodate it and come to believe it is normal behavior. In this case the example was only the neglect of not reporting but it could also be the abuse as well.

OK. Who is deceived? The victim? The abuser? All other family members?

Some family members support the perpetrator, some support the victim.

It creates division.

Do you think some might be deceived?

Some might be deceived. It is this behavior that makes the family dysfunctional - parents neglecting the welfare of their children and continue to function as if that is acceptable.

Some might be deceived. It is this behavior that makes the family dysfunctional - parents neglecting the welfare of their children and continue to function as if that is acceptable.

I think I could safely say most parents don't realise those they put the most trust in are the most likely to sexually abuse their children: a stepfather, a grandfather, an uncle, a minister, a church elder, a close family friend, a school teacher, a scoutmaster, a sports coach.

Is it only after abuse happens that families and groups of friends and churches are labelled dysfunctional?

Caution: My posts are my opinions only and are not intended to offend other members. You're entitled to your opinion, as I am mine!Let us behave decently, as in the daytime, not in carousing and drunkenness, not in sexual immorality and debauchery, not in dissension and jealousy. ~ Romans 13:13 The acts of the flesh are obvious: sexual immorality, impurity and debauchery. ~ Galatians 5:19Have nothing to do with the fruitless deeds of darkness, but rather expose them. ~ Ephesians 5:11

Post by rational on Sept 6, 2016 15:20:11 GMT -5

Some might be deceived. It is this behavior that makes the family dysfunctional - parents neglecting the welfare of their children and continue to function as if that is acceptable.

I think I could safely say most parents don't realise those they put the most trust in are the most likely to sexually abuse their children: a stepfather, a grandfather, an uncle, a minister, a church elder, a close family friend, a school teacher, a scoutmaster, a sports coach.

And the abusers are very good at what they do.

Is it only after abuse happens that families and groups of friends and churches are labelled dysfunctional?

For a family to be considered dysfunctional there needs to be some abnormal things going on which the family ignore and the members come to think of them as normal. The letter written by JEAN is a good look at a dysfunctional family. Before the worker abuse the internal interaction was far from normal. One could argue that the dysfunction set up the conditions that allowed IH to abuse the young girl. She stated that neither of her parents ever said they loved her and the descriptions did not make her life look like life in a rose garden. IH arrived and showed some interest in her and she was, at least at first, a willing victim seeking the attention and affection. Even after the abuse became known no steps were taken to stop it.

Post by joanna on Sept 6, 2016 19:16:12 GMT -5

For a family to be considered dysfunctional there needs to be some abnormal things going on which the family ignore and the members come to think of them as norma

Society tends to accept and even respect "some abnormal things".Religion can be a causation of familial dysfunctionality.When this has a dominant effect in a family unit, and a child is sexually abused by a person representing the religion, then relatives' suppression of knowledge of this abuse is a further indication of conformity to control by the religious belief.

"Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities." - Voltaire

Post by ellie on Sept 7, 2016 23:14:14 GMT -5

For a family to be considered dysfunctional there needs to be some abnormal things going on which the family ignore and the members come to think of them as normal. The letter written by JEAN is a good look at a dysfunctional family. Before the worker abuse the internal interaction was far from normal. One could argue that the dysfunction set up the conditions that allowed IH to abuse the young girl. She stated that neither of her parents ever said they loved her and the descriptions did not make her life look like life in a rose garden. IH arrived and showed some interest in her and she was, at least at first, a willing victim seeking the attention and affection. Even after the abuse became known no steps were taken to stop it.

Uncanny, good golly gosh!

I’m glad she shared her story, Jean’s letter is certainly worth a read.

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