https://i.imgur.com/kusg7Jh.png
Has everyone gathered? Good, then let us raise the curtain on this game.
Welcome... to the banquet of the voyager witches.

EoFF Mafia XXVIII - Banquet of the Voyager Witches

Umineko OST - F style (http://nospoiler.com/y/Ap8uODRkXEs)

Welcome to my second gameboard! I hope that everyone is familiar with the basic rules of Mafia, because this gameboard will be a little spin on the usual formula. Rules of conduct are as listed in the signup thread. In the context of this game, I will say that infringing upon the rules in a severe manner will result in you getting modkilled, or in other words, eliminated from the game instantly. If you are found to be provoking a modkill for strategic purposes, your entire team loses instead. To put it in a nutshell: No rulebreaking, alright?

At the start of the game, every player is given an identity and an alignment. Alignments are categorized in two types:

Human Aligned players want to eliminate all players on the witch team.

Witch Aligned players want to eliminate all players on the human team.

The game progresses in two phases that alternate continuously: Daytime and Nighttime Phases. Daytime Phases last 48 hours, with Halftime taking place at around 24 hours in - it will contain a log of votes so far and a small narrative. During Daytime, players are free to cast votes. Voting for "No Death" is an option. The "majority lockdown" can only happen after Halftime in this game - this means if during or after Halftime a player (or No Death) gets more than 50% of all remaning players' votes, I will lock down the vote and the Daytime phase ends early. You are free to still talk, but votes done after the chronological moment of the lockdown will be ignored. If the 48 hours run out, the player with the most votes is executed / no one is executed if No Death has the most votes. After that, the Nighttime phase begins.

Nighttime lasts 24 hours. During this time players may send PMs to me for their night action, which is unique (or sometimes even nonexistant) depending on the character they play. During Nighttime you can still talk in the Game Thread. The nighttime phase may end early depending on when I get all night action PMs. After Nighttime ends, the next Daytime phase begins.

Identities/Roles/Abilities

Unlike in my last game, identities and abilities are tied to one another in this game. This means that if someone knows your identity, they might be able to deduce your ability. So unlike last game where revealing your identity simply allowed you to be pinpointed in the narrative writeups (which are still a thing in this game), revealing your identity in this game is a riskier move.

As I don't expect anyone here to be exceptionally familiar with the When They Cry series, here is a list of identities that may appear in this game:

Of course, only 9 of these abilities (10 including my own) will actually be in the game.

As you may have noticed, every identity comes with a specific ability. Chances are you aren't going to recognize a lot of them, or others you believe you do recognize come with a twist. What do they all do, exactly? Well, you get all the information you need in your Role PM, which may look something like this:

You are Unaligned. There is no victory or loss for you in this game. Have fun playing nonetheless!

Your ability is Write. You are permitted to manage all game-relevant PMs and are free to design the game however you please.

As for other players' abilities, well, perhaps you'll be able to deduce how they works from how things play out...? Or maybe they'll be nice and just tell you upfront if you ask. You never know~

Also, yes, you saw that correctly, there are no vanillas in this game. However, just as a warning, if you believe you can simply defeat the witches by having everyone claim their identity and have the narrative writeups confirm everyone's stories, you might run into some issues.

Identities/Abilities and alignments are not connected. Any identity/ability may appear on either alignment. Instead, Witch Aligned players have the ability to replace their usual night action with "Kill". That is how night kills are made. Although there may or may not be an identity that can kill regardless...

Special Rules

Everything up until now was the basic setup and ruleset of the game, however there are some additional quirks in this game which I want you guys to figure out for yourself. But how is that fair, not even giving the players the full ruleset to work with? Well I have no intention of making things impossible to figure out.

Along with your role PM, every player is given a Red Truth, a fact about the game's hidden rules. You may decide to share or not share your knowledge. If you do decide to share it, you have the option of making a Purple Statement.

What is a purple statement? Well to put it simply, it wouldn't be too constructive if everyone decided to smurf with one another and make up hidden rules of their own while keeping their actual knowledge stored away. Thus, I introduce this rule: The only purple statements Human Aligned players may make is the Red Truth they are given at the start of the game. This means that when a player makes a purple statement, you can be 100% it is the truth if and only if the player is Human Aligned. Witch Aligned players on the other hand have the privilege to say whatever they want in purple.

So basically, this is how it works.

Every player is given a Red Truth which gives information on one of the game's hidden quirks.
Human Aligned players may repeat the Red Truth they are given in the Game Thread in purple. They are not allowed to use the purple for any other purpose.
Witch Aligned players may use purple color to say anything they want.

If all this seems difficult, do not worry. Besides the details of character abilities, there is no hidden rule in this game that is not expanded upon in any of the red truths. Surely, if you work together, you will be able to figure everything out in no time...? Oh but perhaps the witches are better left in the dark about some facts...? Who can say...

If you have any questions, please don't hesitate to ask over in the discussion topic, which should be going up just about at the same time as this topic. Alternatively, you can also write me a private message, though if the question is relevant to everyone, it might be better to just ask in the discussion topic instead.

Role PMs will be sent out later today. I hope to be able to answer any clarification questions until then. If you are not a participant and you are reading this around the time this post goes up, you can still send me a PM if you decide you want to participate after all.

Featherine's Records
The Second Story Layer (http://home.eyesonff.com/showthread.php/169552-EoFF-Mafia-XXVIII-Game-Thread-Banquet-of-the-Voyager-Witches?p=3658535&viewfull=1#post3658535)
The Pieces' Roles (http://home.eyesonff.com/showthread.php/169552-EoFF-Mafia-XXVIII-Game-Thread-Banquet-of-the-Voyager-Witches?p=3658542&viewfull=1#post3658542)

A group of people can be seen standing in the parlor of the Ushiromiya mansion. Some have agitated expressions on their faces, some seem cautious, some seem shocked, others just seem bored. Just a few minutes earlier they had just discovered a corpse upstairs. The door and windows of the room had been locked from the inside, and a mysterious letter was found at the scene, claiming the victim's death to be a "sacrifice" in a magical ceremony to resurrect the Golden Witch.

Someone who apparently could not stand the silence any longer starts speaking. "So... that's what this is all about, is it. Useless, it's all useless!" Someone else chuckles, responding, "Useless indeed. There's no way something as ridiculous as a witch could exist, right...? This is the act of one or several human culprits among us." Another voice is heard, "Someone... among us? You can't be serious! We're all friends here, aren't we!? It has to be someone besides us! Don't you see!?" After that shout, several sighs can be heard and some people start shaking their head in disbelief.

Eventually, someone responds on behalf of just about everyone else there. "Knox's 1st: It is forbidden for the culprit to be anyone not mentioned in the early parts of the story. There is no way someone who's been in hiding all this time could be the culprit of this tale." Someone else makes an exasperated face. "Goddamnit you metagaming..." Mid-sentence they stop themselves and stand up straight. "But she's right. We've looked all over the mansion and found no one, and all doors and windows to the outside have been locked all this time. Assuming the culprit to be someone we just magically didn't happen to find will lead us nowhere." Multiple people could be seen nodding in approval. Some other people silently clenched their teeth. The person who spoke up earlier didn't speak up again.

Finally someone spoke. "So... who is the guilty party here?" And with that, it began.

https://i.imgur.com/kusg7Jh.png
Ahh, nothing beats a classic setting like a mansion on a remote island, am I right? What a beautiful closed circle. No matter how long you wait, help won't come. It's kill or be killed.
So now, my dear players, it is your turn. Scruffington, Formalhaut, Pumpkin, The Summoner of Leviathan, FFNut, Fynn, Huckleberry Quin, Laddy, Mr. Carnelian. All of you have received information on your pieces in this game. I trust that you all play to the best of your abilities.

Daytime Phase 1

You have 48 hours to vote on someone to be executed. Alternatively you can vote for "No Death". Whoever has the majority of votes by the end of the day will be executed, if "No Death" has the majority, nobody will be executed.

Halftime takes place in about 24 hours. After Halftime, if any option has more than 50% of players' votes at any point in time, the vote is locked down (any further votes and vote changes will be ignored) and the daytime phase ends early.

Reminder: Players may repeat the red truth they have been given in purple (the hex code I use is #C090C0). Human Aligned players cannot state anything in purple but the actual red truth. Witch Aligned players on the other hand may lie in purple.

Good luck and have fun!

Formalhaut

03-04-2017, 11:48 PM

Oh, someone's used my quick jump! I didn't think that would catch on. The halftime mechanic is certainly very interesting. It basically prevents things locking down immediately.

Anyway, hello, everybody! Formy here. Though I've a split personality because I'm also someone else. I think this is the first Mafia game I've ever played where I've had to look at the Role PM three or four times to get it set in my head.

Question! With the witches, I'm guessing they only temporarily give up their ability to kill, right?

Mr. Carnelian

03-04-2017, 11:55 PM

I feel so naked playing a mafia game without a special mafia account... :ohdear:

Karifean

03-04-2017, 11:55 PM

Every night, the witches have the opportunity to use the Kill action instead of their normal ability. They essentially have two abilities and can pick whichever. Additionally, as in my previous game, if multiple witches attempt to use Kill on the same night, all will fail.

Pumpkin

03-04-2017, 11:55 PM

LES GET SOME WITCHES

Formalhaut

03-05-2017, 12:02 AM

Every night, the witches have the opportunity to use the Kill action instead of their normal ability. They essentially have two abilities and can pick whichever. Additionally, as in my previous game, if multiple witches attempt to use Kill on the same night, all will fail.

Ah, I did think it was either/or, but it was nice to get some clarification. Thanks Karifean!

Anyway, let's kill some witches! I think critical to this game is what is revealed in the purple truths, and at what point people reveal their truths. I'm expecting some mid-to-late game bombshells being dropped as someone decides at the eleventh hour to reveal a truth.

I'm honestly excited to see what quirky mechanics come out of this game. I've never played a game like it! :D

Formalhaut

03-05-2017, 12:03 AM

Also, I do agree with Mr. Carny - I'm still getting used to posting as myself. :p

Pumpkin

03-05-2017, 12:04 AM

It's hard to know when to reveal the truths though. Like, sooner would be able to help more people but then you run the risk of the baddies knowing what you know and adapting

Stupid brain work

Mr. Carnelian

03-05-2017, 12:05 AM

I'm dropping my red truth/purple statement thing, because it's something that we're going to need to know at some point, and I really have no idea when the best time would be.

Three players are capable of screwing with the narrative writeups.

I think we might as well all just spill these right now. Seeing as most of us aren't witches, most of them will be true, so we'll get a decent picture of the game's hidden rules on Day One.

FFNut

03-05-2017, 12:05 AM

ok let's get this witch hunt going!

Mr. Carnelian

03-05-2017, 12:11 AM

To clarify me dropping my truth so early, I feel that, overall, we're better off getting the rules at least partially straight as soon as possible. There might be small individual advantages to hiding a truth from the witches, but if we all keep our truths to ourselves, we'll all only know one, whereas if we all share them all we'll all know multiple truths.

Ultimately, the witches will benefit from us not sharing the truths, as they can share their truths by PM'ing each other without us seeing them. Each of the three witches would know muliple hidden rules, whereas we'd each only know one.

Pumpkin

03-05-2017, 12:12 AM

Yeah, alright. Teamwork and all that jazz.

One of the Human Aligned players is actually "Cynical Human Aligned", also known as the "Cynic". They have the goal of a Witch Aligned player and are treated as a Witch Aligned player for everyone else's goals.

Also, notice how I have my exorcist Eleanor set going. IMMA EXORCISE SOME WITHCES

Formalhaut

03-05-2017, 12:15 AM

Mr. Carny raises an interesting point.

There's an argument to be had with revealing our purple truths now, and then as the game goes on, seeing which truths are suspiciously tenuous and are on shaky ground theoretically. Also, by claiming now, whoever are the witches will have to come up with a purple truth immediately on the spot, and lies can be unravelled.

Furthermore, these lies can't be changed or edited, as that would basically mean they were lying. If they were really purple truths, they would be verbatim, and thus not require any other 'follow-ups' or amendments. Basically, they only get one shot at weaving an effective lie, something which will become slightly easier to do as the game draws on.

It's kinda like mass-roleclaiming, and if the previous game is any indication, it generates a heck of a lot of discussion while also inviting the possibility for the witches to trip up. Even going outside of meta discussion, I'm pretty tempted to reveal my purple truth because I don't see a reason why revealing it would damage the Town. Of course, it may do in some roundabout way I'm not seeing but then nobody's perfect.

I'll hold off for just a while longer though, to see if anyone has any reasonable reason why mass-purpletruthing isn't such a good idea. I'm open to suggestions: these new mechanics makes all of us amateurs :p

Scruffington

03-05-2017, 12:15 AM

No mafia accounts is an added challenge. I dig it.

##Vote: No Lynch

Mr. Carnelian

03-05-2017, 12:16 AM

Actually, wait, are there 3 witches? I just assumed that based on previous eoff mafias I've seen and played in, but who knows with this one?

Formalhaut

03-05-2017, 12:23 AM

The number of witches/Mafia depend on the total number of players. in Micro games, there is often just 1 Mafia member. With the 9 of us, I would expect 2 to be Witches, but the GM can always switch up the ratio for balance purposes.

I'm operating under the assumption that it is 2 witches, but I'm not concerned if that's wrong.

Formalhaut

03-05-2017, 12:23 AM

##Vote: No Lynch

OH MY GOD BURN THE WITCH.

Pumpkin

03-05-2017, 12:23 AM

I don't know. For some reason based on the wording I thought the teams would be split equally but yeah it's not usually done that way so I'm not sure why I thought that.

I think revealing the truths might be a good idea because then maybe another player can confirm, even if just to themselves, whether the statement is true or not and get an idea that way?

Scruffington

03-05-2017, 12:27 AM

OH MY GOD BURN THE WITCH.

Yeah, let's not have another repeat of the Yukari lynch this time please.

I don't know. For some reason based on the wording I thought the teams would be split equally but yeah it's not usually done that way so I'm not sure why I thought that.

I think revealing the truths might be a good idea because then maybe another player can confirm, even if just to themselves, whether the statement is true or not and get an idea that way?

Really not a fan of revealing so much information so soon. I also don't particularly have any reason to trust any statements made.

Mr. Carnelian

03-05-2017, 12:28 AM

The more I think about it, the more advantages I can see in everyone saying their truths straight away. Fewer times for witches to come up with a convincing lie, a chance to bring up obvious suspects if two truths directly contradict each other, and as everyone has a truth, revealing it doesn't reveal anything about your role.

Mr. Carnelian

03-05-2017, 12:30 AM

Really not a fan of revealing so much information so soon. I also don't particularly have any reason to trust any statements made.

The great thing is that we don't really HAVE to trust individuals: we just have to trust the law of averages. If everyone reveals a truth, most of them will HAVE to be true, because non-witches can't lie.

Scruffington

03-05-2017, 12:32 AM

The more I think about it, the more advantages I can see in everyone saying their truths straight away. Fewer times for witches to come up with a convincing lie, a chance to bring up obvious suspects if two truths directly contradict each other, and as everyone has a truth, revealing it doesn't reveal anything about your role.

You're also giving the mafia a ton of power by revealing Purple Statements so early. The more information they have, the easier it is for them to work around said information.

Mr. Carnelian

03-05-2017, 12:32 AM

And having to put up a truth quickly puts the witches at a disadvantage: once they've said a truth, they can't take it back without obviously being revealed as a witch. And they're more likely to make a slip-up when they come up with their truth if we push them to do it right now.

Pumpkin

03-05-2017, 12:33 AM

There is also the fact that witches can tell the truth though, so we can't entirely rule someone out if we learn one of the truths is... well, true

Mr. Carnelian

03-05-2017, 12:33 AM

The witches already know who aren't witches. And the statements don't say anything about our role, so I really don't see how they significantly disadvantage us. Yes, it gives the witches more knowledge about the rules, but it also gives US more knowledge about the rules.

Pumpkin

03-05-2017, 12:33 AM

But on the brightside that means we'd have more truths to work with!

Mr. Carnelian

03-05-2017, 12:34 AM

There is also the fact that witches can tell the truth though, so we can't entirely rule someone out if we learn one of the truths is... well, true Good point. But, if we do catch out someone lying, we can know FOR SURE that they're a witch. And if they tell the truth, then they're helping us by revealing crucial information. We win either way.

Scruffington

03-05-2017, 12:38 AM

The witches already know who aren't witches. And the statements don't say anything about our role, so I really don't see how they significantly disadvantage us. Yes, it gives the witches more knowledge about the rules, but it also gives US more knowledge about the rules.

How do you know this?

Mr. Carnelian

03-05-2017, 12:39 AM

You're also giving the mafia a ton of power by revealing Purple Statements so early. The more information they have, the easier it is for them to work around said information.

This is true: we will be giving the mafia more info. But, we'll also be giving ourselves more info. Plus, as I've already said, the witches have more access to truths to start with, so to make up for that advantage we have to share our truths between themselves, which we can only do by putting them out in the open.

Formalhaut

03-05-2017, 12:39 AM

Ordinarily I'm not a fan of rocking the boat during Day One because I play cautiously by nature. But I have to say I was 'inspired' Scruffy by your enthusiastic display in the last game, and so why not rock the boat this time? I've outlined why I feel it - at the very least - isn't damaging to Town.

Right now, everyone is at a base level of suspicion. Sure, I might not 'trust' every statement, but 7 of 9 statements has to be truthful.

Witches can lie or tell the truth with their statements, but they can't do both. As I said, if they lie with a statement, but then tell the truth, we know they are a witch because Town players can only tell the truth.

There is an argument to be had that such a strategy gives witches knowledge of the game, and it is a reasonable concern. However, it gives us more knowledge. If no truths were revealed, it is very easy for witches to plot machinations behind the scenes. And 7 people with full knowledge of the game's hidden rules, in my opinion, can defeat 2-ish people with full knowledge of the game's rules, if we work together.

I mean, I've lost the last two games I've played. It isn't like I've got any dignity left!

Purple Statement

When a player dies, they covertly appoint a "Family Alchemist" (taking the title from the previous Alchemist if one exists). The Family Alchemist resolves ties during daytime voting.

Honestly, I'm not sure how it works. If there's a tie at anytime, can they swoop in and resolve the tie? What if they're already voting? Is it only a tie at sudden death at the end of the day?

Either way, whoever is the Family Alchemist has a slightly stronger position during the day phase. Also, regardless, I don't think there is a Family Alchemist currently, because no-one is dead yet.

Formalhaut

03-05-2017, 12:40 AM

And I know my statement is truthful, so I know at least one statement is a truth.

Mr. Carnelian

03-05-2017, 12:41 AM

The witches already know who aren't witches.

How do you know this? Process of elimination. Mafia always get told who else is mafia. Therefore, everyone who they AREN'T told is mafia must be non-mafia. God, it's the Akihiko "How many townies are there?" question all over again! :p

Pumpkin

03-05-2017, 12:41 AM

Yeah that one is a bit hard for me to understand

Scruffington

03-05-2017, 12:43 AM

The witches already know who aren't witches.

How do you know this? Process of elimination. Mafia always get told who else is mafia. Therefore, everyone who they AREN'T told is mafia must be non-mafia. God, it's the Akihiko "How many townies are there?" question all over again! :p

Except nowhere in the posts does it explicitly state that the mafia know who each other are in this game.

##Vote: Mr. Carnelian

Tbh I think this is a slip. It's reasonable to assume the mafia know each other, but Carny doesn't seem to be assuming. He seems certain of it.

Mr. Carnelian

03-05-2017, 12:44 AM

Formy's rule sounds to me like if there's a tie, whoever has been appointed the Alchemist gets to PM Karifean to resolve a draw, rather than there being a sudden death. Guess we'll see if it's true if we get a draw and it goes to sudden death rather than being resolved through alchemist ruling.

Mr. Carnelian

03-05-2017, 12:45 AM

If witches can PM each other, they'd HAVE to know who else were witches, Scruffy. It's obvious.

Mr. Carnelian

03-05-2017, 12:46 AM

And I notice you still haven't revealed a truth, Scruffy.

Scruffington

03-05-2017, 12:48 AM

If witches can PM each other, they'd HAVE to know who else were witches, Scruffy. It's obvious.

But the opening posts mentions absolutely nothing about witches being able to PM each other. Unless you can find me some evidence that it does.

Mr. Carnelian

03-05-2017, 12:49 AM

And so quick to flip votes! I think that might just be Scruffy being Scruffy though. :p

Formalhaut

03-05-2017, 12:49 AM

The witches already know who aren't witches.

How do you know this? Process of elimination. Mafia always get told who else is mafia. Therefore, everyone who they AREN'T told is mafia must be non-mafia. God, it's the Akihiko "How many townies are there?" question all over again! :p

That's what I think, but goodness who knows in this game. It is almost always assumed that Mafia/witches have factional communication. It'd be very interesting if there was some mechanic affecting this.

As for Scruffy's vote? I think Mr. Carny just assumed Mafia could communicate and worked off of that assumption. It is such a basic rule I didn't even notice it wasn't on Karifean's OP, which doesn't necessarily mean anything in and of itself.

Let's not forget the slim-yet-possible chance that there might be a third party unaligned between Town and Mafia. Roles like Serial Killers and Survivors exist, though they are fairly rare in the EoFF meta.

Pumpkin

03-05-2017, 12:51 AM

Every night, the witches have the opportunity to use the Kill action instead of their normal ability. They essentially have two abilities and can pick whichever. Additionally, as in my previous game, if multiple witches attempt to use Kill on the same night, all will fail.

I don't have proof, but it does say here that multiple witches attempting to kill on the same night will cause all to fail. That would be hard to pull off if they can't communicate

But hey, that might be part of the challenge I guess

Mr. Carnelian

03-05-2017, 12:57 AM

You're actually right, Scruffy. It doesn't say anything explicitly about witches being able to PM each other. It does say that PM'ing is forbidden if not explicitly stated - although I think it says in the same rules that I'm not allowed to give a quote, so you'll have to check yourself - which strongly suggests that SOMEONE can PM someone else. I guess I misremembered that to think that it said that only witches could PM, because that fits with what I already knew about mafia.

Having said all that, I'd be REALLY surprised if they couldn't PM each other at night at the very least. Regardless, in every other mafa game I know of, mafia are told who else is mafia. With Karifean in charge though, who knows.

I still think it's safest to assume that they can PM each other, and proceed accordingly.

Scruffington

03-05-2017, 12:58 AM

That's what I think, but goodness who knows in this game. It is almost always assumed that Mafia/witches have factional communication. It'd be very interesting if there was some mechanic affecting this.

As for Scruffy's vote? I think Mr. Carny just assumed Mafia could communicate and worked off of that assumption. It is such a basic rule I didn't even notice it wasn't on Karifean's OP, which doesn't necessarily mean anything in and of itself.

Let's not forget the slim-yet-possible chance that there might be a third party unaligned between Town and Mafia. Roles like Serial Killers and Survivors exist, though they are fairly rare in the EoFF meta.

As I said, it's a normal assumption to make.

His post didn't suggest that he was assuming this was the case. His post seemed to indicate a certainty that the mafia can communicate with each other, and we have no evidence that this is the case.

Mr. Carnelian

03-05-2017, 01:02 AM

His post didn't suggest that he was assuming this was the case. His post seemed to indicate a certainty that the mafia can communicate with each other, and we have no evidence that this is the case.

Two can play at that game. :p What makes you assume that witches CAN'T PM each other and don't know who each other are, when that's standard mafia practice? The only reason you'd have to NOT assume that is if you've been told otherwise.

If you were anyone else, I'd find you a bit suspicious by now, but I know this is how you operate, so it's cool. Lay this level of heat on everyone, so we can see who cracks.

Mr. Carnelian

03-05-2017, 01:03 AM

Oooh, I'm all giddy with excitement. I was planning to be asleep by now, but it's Saturday night and a new mafia's started and I am BUZZZED!

Mr. Carnelian

03-05-2017, 01:03 AM

So apologies if I get snappy, or have been snappy.

Formalhaut

03-05-2017, 01:04 AM

I find it pretty amusing accusing others of being adamantly certain about ideas and theories when - and don't take this the wrong way - you're often pretty certain-sounding yourself.

Either way, it is still early days, and a few people haven't checked in yet, so we'll see what others have to think. As it stands, there seems to be two major points of discussion:

1) Should we reveal our purple truths, and who will reveal their purple truths?

2) Can Mafia communicate? Was Mr. Carny being suspiciously certain, or just a simple assumption perhaps spoken too forcefully?

Personally on 2) I'm leaning towards the latter, but at this point, it is still early days.

Pumpkin

03-05-2017, 01:04 AM

Yeah let's not go on a witch hunt (hehe) just yet guys

Imma be honest, I just wanted to say that

Scruffington

03-05-2017, 01:05 AM

Two can play at that game. :p What makes you assume that witches CAN'T PM each other and don't know who each other are, when that's standard mafia practice? The only reason you'd have to NOT assume that is if you've been told otherwise.

If you were anyone else, I'd find you a bit suspicious by now, but I know this is how you operate, so it's cool. Lay this level of heat on everyone, so we can see who cracks.

Except I never assumed that the Witches can't PM each other. I also never assumed that they could. It was just something I happened to notice that was completely absent from the rules in the OP.

Mr. Carnelian

03-05-2017, 01:05 AM

Drop your truths like they're hot, people! Let's see what you got.

Mr. Carnelian

03-05-2017, 01:07 AM

Scruffy's making good points. Anyone who makes some kind of statement like I did SHOULD be put under suspicion. I did feel certain that the witches could PM each other and knew who each other were, but it was based on past experience of mafia games, not evidence.

Mr. Carnelian

03-05-2017, 01:08 AM

And the absence of it in the OP could be noteworthy, just like Scruffy says. Karifean could be up to his tricks, me-thinks.

Pumpkin

03-05-2017, 01:11 AM

But gosh that would be hard though. Because if they can't communicate they can't coordinate their kills and there's a good chance that multiple witches will try to kill, which will result in failure, or that to be safe no one would kill which would also be a challenge? They'd kind of have to luck on to their strategies and make a lot of assumptions about the other witches

It could be trying to make it more challenging but that sounds super difficult

Mr. Carnelian

03-05-2017, 01:12 AM

I trust Scruffy as much as I trust anyone at this point. He definitely seems committed to pointing out inconsistencies, which is what we need. Sometimes, though, people just say things without thinking them through. There isn't ALWAYS a big motive behind them.

Mr. Carnelian

03-05-2017, 01:17 AM

Where are the rest of them players? LET'S GET THIS PARTY STARTED, MOTHERSMURFERS!!

I am WAAAAY too excited.

Formalhaut

03-05-2017, 01:25 AM

I apologise on behalf of him. I'll be sure to double his daily intake of sedative in the evening.

FFNut

03-05-2017, 01:28 AM

I was reading trying to decide if I should drop my truth. Really I was wondering if it would help us out or not. I decided it will in the end.
One Human Player is the Village Idiot. This player will receive a night move but it will always backfire on them.

FFNut

03-05-2017, 01:31 AM

I will say that I think the witches can communicate. Can't imagine us waking up and seeing the witches off one another. However if they can't that would be fun to witness.

Mr. Carnelian

03-05-2017, 01:35 AM

The truths so far, in order of reveal:

Mr. Carnelian
Three players are capable of screwing with the narrative writeups.

I think that this where I got the three witches thing from, on reflection. But, it doesn't actually say anything about witches. This is my least favourite truth so far, because it's so goddamn vague. Honestly, I wouldn't blame you for thinking that this might be a fake rule. Hopefully this one will become clearer after we've seen the first writeup.

Pumpkin
One of the Human Aligned players is actually "Cynical Human Aligned", also known as the "Cynic". They have the goal of a Witch Aligned player and are treated as a Witch Aligned player for everyone else's goals.

This is the most Karifean-sounding rule ever. If you are mafia, props for nailing his style. As for what it means, sounds like they're basically an extra witch, except they might not show up as witch if the cop-equivalent investigates them, assuming of course that the cop-equivalent can only see witch/non-witch alignment.

Formalhaut
When a player dies, they covertly appoint a "Family Alchemist" (taking the title from the previous Alchemist if one exists). The Family Alchemist resolves ties during daytime voting.

I've given my take on this already, but here it is again: Formy's rule sounds to me like if there's a tie, whoever has been appointed the Alchemist gets to PM Karifean to resolve a draw, rather than there being a sudden death. Guess we'll see if it's true if we get a draw and it goes to sudden death rather than being resolved through alchemist ruling.

FFNUT
One Human Player is the Village Idiot. This player will receive a night move but it will always backfire on them.

Sounds plausible. More Karifean-style shenanigans.

FFNut

03-05-2017, 01:40 AM

I'm intrigued to learn what Scruffs is now!

Mr. Carnelian

03-05-2017, 01:42 AM

Me too. The more truths we have, the more certain we can be that most are them are TRUE, rather than witch lies.

Pumpkin

03-05-2017, 01:43 AM

I'm inclined to believe Mr. Carnelian's because of how narrative focused Karifean is in his games, which totally makes sense with the Umineko theme.

I trust mine as well because I'm pretty but also because that seems to suit the narrative and chicanery of the secret rules.

The other two I am very torn on. The alchemist one seems oddly phrased and vague, which leads me to believe Formy wouldn't make it up because he could come up with something more convincing. On the other hand, I don't know how well it fits in the narrative? I remember in the Umineko chapters I read that they had after death scenes, which could indicate that a character can influence events after their deaths. Hmm.

The last one also seems like a mafia-esq rule but I don't know how it would fit the characters of the narrative? Could just be made up for the game, not everything is consistent with the stories I would assume. Part of me wants it to be fake because I don't want end up being the village idiot and then all of my stuff backfires on me

Those are just my thoughts, I'm really unsure about all of this~

Mr. Carnelian

03-05-2017, 01:44 AM

Assuming two to three witches, potentially over half of the truths so far revealed could be witch lies. The more people speak up, the lower the ratio of witch lies goes, the better handle we have on the hidden rules.

FFNut

03-05-2017, 01:45 AM

Is Pumkin saying she has a night move?

Pumpkin

03-05-2017, 01:47 AM

Karifean said there are no vanillas so I assumed everyone had a night move

FFNut

03-05-2017, 01:48 AM

Ok I must of missed that. I just assumed there would be Vanillia players.

Pumpkin

03-05-2017, 01:49 AM

READ THE RULES FFNUT GEEZ

:P

Formalhaut

03-05-2017, 01:49 AM

Wow, Nutty is definitely Mafia. 100% confirmed.

FFNut

03-05-2017, 01:50 AM

Wow, Nutty is definitely Mafia. 100% confirmed.

I am? How did you come to that finger point.

Mr. Carnelian

03-05-2017, 01:50 AM

Formy's one can be tested, if we all agree to do a "draw" vote. If that then goes to sudden death, we'll know that Formy is lying and is therefore a witch.

Pumpkin

03-05-2017, 01:51 AM

I guess the problem would be getting everyone to agree to that, huh?

Mr. Carnelian

03-05-2017, 01:52 AM

From what I understand, EVERYONE has a night move/ability. Also, fairly sure Formy was being jokey. :p

FFNut

03-05-2017, 01:52 AM

The issue there is unless someone has been assigned it right away there wouldn't be one to begin with.

Laddy

03-05-2017, 01:53 AM

Hue hue witch hunt

FFNut

03-05-2017, 01:53 AM

I was responding to Mr. Carny on testing Formy's truth.

Mr. Carnelian

03-05-2017, 01:53 AM

I guess the problem would be getting everyone to agree to that, huh?

True.

FFNut

03-05-2017, 01:55 AM

I guess the problem would be getting everyone to agree to that, huh?

True.

Cant imagine you would want your name being passed around on the vote split tiebreaker.

Mr. Carnelian

03-05-2017, 01:55 AM

The issue there is unless someone has been assigned it right away there wouldn't be one to begin with.

Then we can just wait until the first day after the witches have killed someone. Then there'll be a Family Alchemist.

FFNut

03-05-2017, 01:56 AM

If it is true yes, yet I don't want to volunteer to be to a tie breaker.

FFNut

03-05-2017, 01:58 AM

Unless With that truth for Formy also came the power of night one Alchemist.

Mr. Carnelian

03-05-2017, 02:03 AM

I guess the problem would be getting everyone to agree to that, huh?

True.

Cant imagine you would want your name being passed around on the vote split tiebreaker.

Au contraire, mon frere. I volunteer. Losing me won't negatively effect town's chances much in terms of numbers, so it might as well be me on the draw vote.

I propose either a "No Lynch"/"Mr. Carnelian" draw or a "Suspicious player X/Mr. Carnelian" draw. Anyone who votes to tip the scales away from a draw vote after it had been decided by the group would automatically be labelling themselves a witch. The vote comes to a draw, then we either go to sudden death, or not. If not, Formy is telling the truth. If yes, he's a lying witch.

Of course, seeing as there might not be a Family Alchemist to start with, we'd need to do this they day after the witches have killed someone.

Pumpkin

03-05-2017, 02:04 AM

Guys guys guys, there's a character with a role called "rewrite." That may not be what it sounds like or that character may not be in play, but if it is then that would be consistent with at least some of what Mr. Carny has said.

Could also be that he read the roles and wrote a lie based on that, but then why would he pick 3 people who can rewrite a narrative? Some of the roles are vague and not as obvious if that's what they can do

I dunno, something to think about

FFNut

03-05-2017, 02:05 AM

Just noticed Scruff dropped out of the conversation as soon as we started asking him about things. May be real life stuff though.

Mr. Carnelian

03-05-2017, 02:09 AM

Scruffy might just be asleep. I would sleeping right now if I wasn't feeling so :excited:

FFNut

03-05-2017, 02:09 AM

I would also like to hear what Laddy is thinking so far since he has jumped into the thread.

Pumpkin

03-05-2017, 02:10 AM

Yeah he seems a bit too strategic and experienced to suddenly drop off when faced with confrontatio

Formalhaut

03-05-2017, 02:10 AM

Why be so self-sacrificial, Mr. Carny?

FFNut

03-05-2017, 02:12 AM

I am actually thinking the same thing as Formy here.

Mr. Carnelian

03-05-2017, 02:18 AM

Why be so self-sacrificial, Mr. Carny?

If it works the way I hope, I wouldn't be sacrificing myself. Plus, we learn a lot however it goes.

After a majority has agreed to it, anyone who last-minute votes to stop it being a draw is probably a witch.

When it comes to a draw, we either find out you (Formy) are a lying witch, or that the truth you gave is TRUE.

If it's a me/no lynch draw then, then the town tie-breaker person can just go for no lynch, and I'm fine.

Otherwise, they can just go for the most suspicious person. If they decide that's me, it's their loss, but they'll find out after I'm dead that I'm town, and that everything I've said can be trusted, so town will still learn something valuable.

It's more important to me that town wins then that I survive until the end.

Mr. Carnelian

03-05-2017, 02:20 AM

Most importantly, at least one of the two people in a draw (if we go for a two-person draw) would almost certainly be town, so it might as well be me.

Mr. Carnelian

03-05-2017, 02:24 AM

Of course, Formy's purple/red/marigold/whatever statement could be true AND he can could be a witch: as far as I understand, witches don't have to lie about their statements. However, we'd still learn a valuable rule even if that were the case.

Mr. Carnelian

03-05-2017, 02:32 AM

Also, just occured to me that the wording of the rule is "they covertly appoint an 'Family Alchemist'", rather than them themselves becoming the Alchemist. That potentially means that the townie who just died could accidentally appoint a witch player as the Alchemist. Of course, the very existence of the Alchemist would still prove that Formy's purple statement is true.

Mr. Carnelian

03-05-2017, 02:34 AM

Reposting the truth list so you don't have to keep scrolling all the way back. I'll do this every couple of pages as more "truths" are revealed.

The "truths" so far, in order of reveal:

Mr. Carnelian
Three players are capable of screwing with the narrative writeups.

I think that this where I got the three witches thing from, on reflection. But, it doesn't actually say anything about witches. This is my least favourite truth so far, because it's so goddamn vague. Honestly, I wouldn't blame you for thinking that this might be a fake rule. Hopefully this one will become clearer after we've seen the first writeup.

Pumpkin
One of the Human Aligned players is actually "Cynical Human Aligned", also known as the "Cynic". They have the goal of a Witch Aligned player and are treated as a Witch Aligned player for everyone else's goals.

This is the most Karifean-sounding rule ever. If you are mafia, props for nailing his style. As for what it means, sounds like they're basically an extra witch, except they might not show up as witch if the cop-equivalent investigates them, assuming of course that the cop-equivalent can only see witch/non-witch alignment.

Formalhaut
When a player dies, they covertly appoint a "Family Alchemist" (taking the title from the previous Alchemist if one exists). The Family Alchemist resolves ties during daytime voting.

I've given my take on this already, but here it is again: Formy's rule sounds to me like if there's a tie, whoever has been appointed the Alchemist gets to PM Karifean to resolve a draw, rather than there being a sudden death. Guess we'll see if it's true if we get a draw and it goes to sudden death rather than being resolved through alchemist ruling.

FFNUT
One Human Player is the Village Idiot. This player will receive a night move but it will always backfire on them.

Sounds plausible. More Karifean-style shenanigans.

Formalhaut

03-05-2017, 02:35 AM

Reposting the truth list so you don't have to keep scrolling all the way back. I'll do this every couple of pages as more "truths" are revealed.

He's really excited if he's posting stuff just for the sake of it.

Scruffington

03-05-2017, 02:56 AM

Went grocery shopping and I'm making dinner. Apologies for the delay.

Scruffington

03-05-2017, 03:02 AM

I'm intrigued to learn what Scruffs is now!

Me too. The more truths we have, the more certain we can be that most are them are TRUE, rather than witch lies.

What's with this interaction?

Seems like both of you are trying to pressure me into revealing my statement together. In this instance, I'm placing the same value in my statement as I would in my own role. Any information I can deny the mafia from having is beneficial to myself and to town.

The fact that you're pushing so hard to get statements out is similar to pushing for roleclaims. And it's only Day 1. Scummy.

Just noticed Scruff dropped out of the conversation as soon as we started asking him about things. May be real life stuff though.

No one asked me anything.

Formalhaut

03-05-2017, 03:05 AM

I think people are asking you to produce your purple statement. That's kinda been a thing today.

Scruffington

03-05-2017, 03:19 AM

Yeah no thanks.

The Summoner of Leviathan

03-05-2017, 03:48 AM

Woah, so much text. Took a while to parse it! Sorry for the lateness, I worked an extra shift this weekend and was extra long. I am sorta DOA.

OMFG I DO NOT NEED TO LOG INTO ANOTHER ACCOUNT YESSSSSS!

I want to point out a few things though!

Revealing your statement right away is beneficial to everyone (witches and humans). It is not necessarily scummy but it will help the witches too. On the other hand, holding your statement back can also be useful to catch a witch in a lie. So I do see Scruff's point.

I am kinda surprised that Carny is volunteering a tribute which makes me question his flavour. I mean it is true that it is an easy way to find out that Formy is lying or not. However, there are a few flaws. First, we do not know if there is a current Alchemist who has this role to decide since the rule was vague regarding that. Second, there are 9 of us so impossible to have a tie unless someone doesn't vote or votes a third way. Third, this can easily result in a lockdown after the 24 hour mark if the third/abstain vote switches sides. So this is a really bad idea which either makes me think it wasn't thought through or that Carny has a special flavour that requires him to be lynched to win (there's such thing, I spent time bored in the mafiascum wiki). Seems like a bad idea, unless you wanted to bait a witch too while you are at it so if someone decides to break the tie since we are odd that would point to them being a witch?

Carny: Three players are capable of screwing with the narrative writeups.

I agree that it is vague, but honestly does "narrative writeups" and "red truth" mean the same thing? I would assume narrative writeups are what Karifean uses in his posts, not so much the same as red truths/hidden rules. Maybe I am making too much of a semantic argument though?

Pumpkin: One of the Human Aligned players is actually "Cynical Human Aligned", also known as the "Cynic". They have the goal of a Witch Aligned player and are treated as a Witch Aligned player for everyone else's goals.

This seems to be a classic Miller twist.

Formy: When a player dies, they covertly appoint a "Family Alchemist" (taking the title from the previous Alchemist if one exists). The Family Alchemist resolves ties during daytime voting.

Sounds to me like a power that is relevant only when there is an even number of players.

Nutty: One Human Player is the Village Idiot. This player will receive a night move but it will always backfire on them.

Quite possible which either means their ability will always do the opposite than what they think or they will always target themselves (literal back-fire).

I'm with Scruff and will withhold my red truth for now. I experienced too much bandwagoning last game (R.I.P. Yukari) and don't like being pigeon-holed.

Formalhaut

03-05-2017, 04:02 AM

I laid out my argument for revealing purple statements, though I can see the counter-argument to that. I revealed my purple statement because when I looked at it, I didn't think it was terribly game-breaking (it seems highly situational) and I couldn't see how witches could use that to their advantage, and I'm not going to lie I did reveal my statement just to do something in a Mafia game I wouldn't do normally (be bold).

If there's some mechanic that could be very useful for the witches, I can understand holding back from revealing.

I'm confused about Pumpkin's statement. So there's a human player who has the same goals as a witch? Wouldn't that make them a witch?

Unless it means they are a witch but would come up innocent. Or they are a traitor-type role?

Formalhaut

03-05-2017, 04:04 AM

Another thing about the Family Alchemist role I'm confused about: it only says 'when a player dies'.

In a single day/night phase, up to two people die: one is lynched and one is nightkilled. Does that mean the person who is lynched becomes Family Alchemist for like, an hour, before that title is taken back as the player nightkilled elects the next Alchemist?

Sheesh, talk about wiggle-room.

The Summoner of Leviathan

03-05-2017, 04:12 AM

I'm confused about Pumpkin's statement. So there's a human player who has the same goals as a witch? Wouldn't that make them a witch?

Unless it means they are a witch but would come up innocent. Or they are a traitor-type role?

Yes, Traitor (https://wiki.mafiascum.net/index.php?title=Traitor), I was mixing it with Miller.

Most likely means they will come up "human" when investigated but win with witches. Also, probably has a power role too since there is no vanilla roles, unless by virtue of being a Traitor they are not vanilla.

Also, why are we assuming all actions are night actions? It is possible Karifean is playing his own twists. I feel like one role has a double vote given ability "Coerce" or "Glare", or any other tbh.

Formalhaut

03-05-2017, 04:26 AM

Yeah, that's a good point. We've not really had any dayphase actions in EoFF, but this is Karifinese Mafia. Up is down, left is right, and sandwich leap from the hands of their human oppressors.

I feel like if there are Dayphase roles that can drastically affect the game, they are probably x-shot, most likely one-shot use. Or, they may have an ability which is weaker (but can always be used), or a one-shot variant that is significantly more potent but can only be used once.

Who knows. But you're right: we shouldn't assume people can only operate at night.

FFNut

03-05-2017, 04:31 AM

Now you two have me wondering about day rolls.

Formalhaut

03-05-2017, 04:33 AM

They're not terribly common on EoFF. The most common day-role is the vigilante, who is usually x-shot and can choose to kill one person during the day phase by messaging the host.

You can read up more about them on the Mafia wiki if you're more interested. It might be worthwhile to know the sort of things that can happen during the day besides just talking and voting.

FFNut

03-05-2017, 05:17 AM

I am wondering about Carneys truth. It seems a little paraphrased.

Fynn

03-05-2017, 06:05 AM

Wow. 8 pages already? Really?!

And I just got up.

Now I need to catch up.

Laddy

03-05-2017, 08:12 AM

r u kidding me I gotta read all dis?

Laddy

03-05-2017, 10:18 AM

Here's mine:

If a Pained's identity or ability is revealed, their goal changes to wanting to survive alone and kill everyone else.

Laddy

03-05-2017, 10:24 AM

ALSO if there is going to be gore/blood in the results posts can it be put under a Spoiler? I'm not very good with blood/gore and I know the subject matter is so yeah. :/

Laddy

03-05-2017, 10:24 AM

Not trying to being whiny but I'd just like to ask please. :)

Mr. Carnelian

03-05-2017, 11:53 AM

The fact that you're pushing so hard to get statements out is similar to pushing for roleclaims

Just to be clear, I'm not of the opinion that keeping your red statements to yourself means you're a witch. I just think that the net benefit of sharing them is greater for town than keeping them to ourselved. You disagree, and that's fine.

What I will say is that I think that keeping the red statements hidden is what Karifean wants us to do. He wants us to stay all in the dark and confused because that will make the game more interesting. I say we screw that noise and act unexpectedly. Power to the people!

I am kinda surprised that Carny is volunteering a tribute which makes me question his flavour. I mean it is true that it is an easy way to find out that Formy is lying or not. However, there are a few flaws. First, we do not know if there is a current Alchemist who has this role to decide since the rule was vague regarding that.

Which is why I said wait until someone is dead.

Second, there are 9 of us so impossible to have a tie unless someone doesn't vote or votes a third way.
Didn't think of that, but easily solved: wait until there an even number of players. Alternatively, I volunteer to abstain. Still need to wait until someone's dead, though.
Third, this can easily result in a lockdown after the 24 hour mark if the third/abstain vote switches sides.

If someone switches after a concensus of us have agreed to a draw vote, then they're probably a witch, so swe learn something valuable even so.

So this is a really bad idea which either makes me think it wasn't thought through

I have totally thought this through. I'm not saying we have to do it, but if we feel that it becomes necessary to test Formy's truth, I'm willing to be the one to put my neck on the line

Seems like a bad idea, unless you wanted to bait a witch too while you are at it so if someone decides to break the tie since we are odd that would point to them being a witch.

Exactly, someone switching their vote to stop a draw would point to them being a witch, and we'd know something new. Also, we'd know for sure whether Formy's red statement was true or not. If it's not true, he's a witch. If it is true he COULD be a witch, but at least we know a valuable rule.

Again, not saying we have to do this, just that we can. I realise that this isn't a normal strategy, but this isn't a normal mafia game. Yes, I might end up dead if we go through with this idea, but I'm thinking strategically here: town can still win whether I personally am alive or not.

Mr. Carnelian

03-05-2017, 11:55 AM

I am wondering about Carneys truth. It seems a little paraphrased.

It's word for word. Sorry it's so vague.

Mr. Carnelian

03-05-2017, 12:10 PM

Here's mine:

If a Pained's identity or ability is revealed, their goal changes to wanting to survive alone and kill everyone else.

Yay, more truths! Even if there were three witches and all of them gave a false statement, that would mean that at least two of the truths we know now MUST be correct.

Karifean

03-05-2017, 12:17 PM

What I will say is that I think that keeping the red statements hidden is what Karifean wants us to do. He wants us to stay all in the dark and confused because that will make the game more interesting. I say we screw that noise and act unexpectedly. Power to the people!

https://i.imgur.com/4tr6ltp.png
Hoh? You believe to know what my piece is trying to achieve in this game?
Well now. This kind of game is interesting as well. *giggle*

The Summoner of Leviathan

03-05-2017, 02:37 PM

Rereading the first post, I'm pretty sure that narrative write up isn't the same thing as the hidden rules/red rules. Therefore, if there are 3 people who can mess with how Karifean does his write ups the language is vague enough that we don't know if they're human or witch either. So saying there are three witches seems to be a suspicious conclusion since the evidence is circumstantial at best and open to interpretation. Moreover, Karifean is careful enough when writing that he wouldn't mix the two up (narrative and hidden rules) unless he was purposefully trying to obfuscate.

The Summoner of Leviathan

03-05-2017, 02:38 PM

This would mean that Karifean is possibly an unreliable narrator if people can mess with his writeups.

Mr. Carnelian

03-05-2017, 02:40 PM

True. Also true that people who can mess with the write-ups might not necessarily be witches, hadn't really thought of that.

Formalhaut

03-05-2017, 04:25 PM

I'm not really seeing how a Town player would want to mess up with the writeups, though. To my knowledge, all roles that can affect reveals (Janitor) are usually Anti-town.

Not sure why you would want to obscure information unless you were a witch. Unless there's a method to extract more information from the writeups, I guess.

FFNut

03-05-2017, 04:29 PM

I was wondering the same thing. Why would there be three write-up changes, wouldn't that make the write-up almost not important as it would be a host of what three random people decide it to be.

Formalhaut

03-05-2017, 05:21 PM

My guess is that they can omit things, or change things to make the write-up more incriminating to their own ends. I don't think they have the power to write them themselves, more likely they will tell Karifean they wish to use their power (which might be x-shot) and he will do the rest.

That's there is a write-up editing power isn't surprising. I am surprised there's apparently three players who can mess with the writeups though. That's a lot of power on one mechanic.

Pumpkin

03-05-2017, 05:36 PM

Maybe they can affect the write ups to give clues or something?

Formalhaut

03-05-2017, 05:47 PM

Here's mine:

If a Pained's identity or ability is revealed, their goal changes to wanting to survive alone and kill everyone else.

While we're on the purple statements:

What does everyone make of this? It sounds legitimate at a first viewing. From what it sounds like, there's a player - who is either Town or a Witch, but I'd guess they were Town as it would be harder to keep you identity/ability secret in a witch's circle - who becomes something that is basically a serial killer if either their identity (who they are) or their ability (what they can do) is revealed and attached to their EoFF account.

Let's not be hasty. The moment that person is revealed, it'll be dangerous for witches and especially dangerous for Town.

Of course, assuming that the statement is true, but an activated serial killer is very Karifinese.

FFNut

03-05-2017, 05:55 PM

Wow I am wonder how many people are Pained. The way it is worded makes it sound like 2 or more.

Formalhaut

03-05-2017, 05:56 PM

Anything is possible, but it is very unlikely for there to be more than one serial killer in a game size of nine people, mainly because of balance.

FFNut

03-05-2017, 06:00 PM

But now because of his truth are they active as the pained ability is in the open now.

Formalhaut

03-05-2017, 06:09 PM

No, I think. From the sounds of it, they have to be publicly accused of being the identity of the Pained, or alternatively, their ability is publicly declared.

Knowing that a Pained exists isn't enough. So, for example, if I was the Pained, my secret is kept until someone else goes "Hey Formy, you're [Joe Bloggs], aren't you?" or "Hey Formy, you have the ability [Disco Dancing!], don't you?"

I guess at that point the host would tell the Pained that they've been found out and tells them their new win condition (which, from the sounds of it, is of the KILL EVERYONE variety).

Formalhaut

03-05-2017, 06:13 PM

The Pained is sorta like a role descriptor I guess, not an ability. The abilities are things like 'Investigate' or 'coerce' as seen in Karifean's OP.

An identity has an ability attached. So for example, Battler Ushiromiya is the identity, and 'Investigate' is the ability.

Let's say I was Battler, and the Pained. If someone accused me of being either Battler or having the Investigate ability, I'd be found out, and then I'd go psycho and start killing everyone. Serial Killers are Third Parties in Mafia.

I hope that makes sense, Nutty.

FFNut

03-05-2017, 06:17 PM

It does yes. Knowing there is at least one let's not get a character claim out. We have the witches to deal with already, let's not add a serial killer or two to the list.

Fynn

03-05-2017, 06:49 PM

I was actually going to ask Karifean how many witches there are and if they can communicate - I mean, this is pretty much a given, considering how mafia works, but usually the rules on the opening post still state it.

Theoretically, this could be a game where we are around 50/50 human/witch aligned, but since the witches wouldn't know who the other witches were, the chances would still be pretty even.

But then, some people are fairly confident the witches can communicate and that there are three. Not a purple statement, but perhaps a slip up that can still work to our advantage.

I choose not to reveal my statement yet. At this point I feel it would give the Witches an unfair edge in more ways than one, and I'd rather still stay on the safe side until we actually know if this game has the standard mafia mechanics or the other model that I mentioned.

Mr. Carnelian

03-05-2017, 06:55 PM

Fair enough. I still hold that releasing the statements will have a greater net benefit for town than for the witches, but at least you and Scruffy have thought about why not saying might be advantageous, rather than just going "Lol, no."

Also, full confession on the three thing: the only real reason I thought it would be free is because the only other mafia game I've been substantially involved in had three mafia. This made me think, probably wrongly, that having three mafia was a "thing" that could be relied upon. There's no way of knowing right now how many witches there are. There could even - in a Karifean-style twist - be more witches than town.

Formalhaut

03-05-2017, 06:58 PM

Having more witches than Town would be hideously unbalanced, especially if (my theory is correct) one of those Town members is a ticking serial killer bomb if they're found out.

I'm relying on the usual metagame of ratios to determine that's there's probably 2-3 witches, but I happily accept that in this wacky world, 'the usual metagame' doesn't always apply.

Fynn

03-05-2017, 07:00 PM

Of course, I'm not saying you saying there were three points to you being mafia. I'm just wondering if things thaywe take for granted could have been left out of the initial post purposefully - I mean, this is Karifean we're talking about :p

Mr. Carnelian

03-05-2017, 07:02 PM

this is Karifean we're talking about :p

Exactly. Literally ANYTHING is possible. Maybe, in a postmodern twist on the format, there aren't any witches, and the whole thing is just a massive troll.

Formalhaut

03-05-2017, 07:03 PM

Now that you're here Fynn, what do you think of the purple statements revealed so far? Any that catch your eye?

FFNut

03-05-2017, 07:04 PM

There may only be one witch. We do know there is at least one pained, and the serial killer vs witch killer may be why he had to clarified the if a double kill happens on one rule.

Come me to think that of it I found no that doubtful as a lucky day one lynch would end the game unless a pained somehow got realized which would take pure luck also.

Fynn

03-05-2017, 07:07 PM

Now that you're here Fynn, what do you think of the purple statements revealed so far? Any that catch your eye?

I know at least one person is lying

Formalhaut

03-05-2017, 07:07 PM

Oh? You sound very certain.

Mr. Carnelian

03-05-2017, 07:08 PM

Oooh, interesting! Do tell.

Fynn

03-05-2017, 07:09 PM

If I say it, they'll know which one of them I'm talking about. It's entirely possible that more than one statement is false. But I can only really know the one.

Fynn

03-05-2017, 07:09 PM

It's also part of the reason why I won';t reveal my purple statement yet

Formalhaut

03-05-2017, 07:12 PM

Presumably, something in either Fynn's Role PM or the Red Truth in his PM conflicts with a purple statement.

Mr. Carnelian

03-05-2017, 07:13 PM

Or, alternatively, he's a witch trying to throw doubt on a genuine truth.

Mr. Carnelian

03-05-2017, 07:13 PM

Although if that were the case, I would have expected him to be a bit more specific.

Formalhaut

03-05-2017, 07:20 PM

Also, it would be a straight 'their word against his', and I hate those kinds of situations because in my experience, I always choose wrong.

Mr. Carnelian

03-05-2017, 07:22 PM

Also, it would be a straight 'their word against his', and I hate those kinds of situations because in my experience, I always choose wrong.

In that case, if that situation comes up just tell us who you would choose, and we'll all choose the opposite. :p

Formalhaut

03-05-2017, 07:22 PM

Tch, really boosting my self-confidence, thanks.

Laddy

03-05-2017, 07:24 PM

Let's look at anything in the OP that could demonstrate what he could be referring to?

Scruffington

03-05-2017, 09:30 PM

About Formalhaut's statement: There's no indication as to the alignment of the 'Family Alchemist' role.

Also I forgot to change my vote yesterday.

##: Vote No Lynch

Formalhaut

03-05-2017, 09:51 PM

Well yeah, the Family Alchemist could be Town or Witch.

If the player who died was Town, they would try to elect someone they at least thought was also Town. You wouldn't want to be giving a witch a tie-breaker power. Therefore, if a Town player who died elects someone, they believe that person to likely not be a witch.

Of course, Town players operate under false theories and assumptions so it shouldn't be taken as absolute.

Karifean

03-05-2017, 11:36 PM

Many people were fervently trying to get everyone up to speed on what they were up against. Some laid back for a while, only jumping into the conversation when necessary. Others seemed to be completely absent-minded, as if they weren't even there at all most of the time.

Somewhat exhausted, they decided to take a 30 minute break. Everyone paced around the mansion for a while, but everyone was still cautious and observant of one another so no one was free to act as they pleased.

Eventually they all reconvened in the parlor. One person noticed something hidden under their seat when they returned. Surprised, they took it and went outside for a second. Just afterwards they came back in as if nothing had happened.

24 hours remain in the voting phase. Majority lockdowns are now enabled.

Voting Log

Scruffington -> No Death
Scruffington -> Mr. Carnelian
Scruffington -> No Death

The Summoner of Leviathan

03-05-2017, 11:37 PM

Here's mine:

If a Pained's identity or ability is revealed, their goal changes to wanting to survive alone and kill everyone else.

While we're on the purple statements:

What does everyone make of this? It sounds legitimate at a first viewing. From what it sounds like, there's a player - who is either Town or a Witch, but I'd guess they were Town as it would be harder to keep you identity/ability secret in a witch's circle - who becomes something that is basically a serial killer if either their identity (who they are) or their ability (what they can do) is revealed and attached to their EoFF account.

Let's not be hasty. The moment that person is revealed, it'll be dangerous for witches and especially dangerous for Town.

Of course, assuming that the statement is true, but an activated serial killer is very Karifinese.

I do not think it is a serial killer, but sounds more like a "survivor".

The Summoner of Leviathan

03-05-2017, 11:38 PM

SOMEONE GOT A NOTE UNDER THEIR SEAT????? What kind of shenanigans is this?

FFNut

03-06-2017, 12:09 AM

So now I am wondering what the smurf was in that letter. Ohh another twist.

Formalhaut

03-06-2017, 12:11 AM

I'd think it was a survivor type if the 'kill everyone else' thing wasn't there.

I guess it is possible by 'kill everyone else' it is implied that the person wants them all to be lynched/nightkilled, but the phrasing of that suggests to me at least that they have some direct hand in the killing.

Of course, hopefully that won't happen.

Intrigued about the note though. That seems suggestive of... something.

Pumpkin

03-06-2017, 12:52 AM

Oh good, a letter. Not like that could be ANYTHING

FFNut

03-06-2017, 02:06 AM

So this letter. Who sent it? Whoreceived it? Was it sent by a player or was it sent by Karifean? What is in it, and what is the results of it?

Scruffington

03-06-2017, 03:37 AM

The letter would suggest that someone has a daytime ability. So we definitely can't assume that everyone has a night time ability.

I wonder if there are other daytime roles out there. Also...am I really the only one to have voted?

Fynn

03-06-2017, 05:49 AM

Well, this might give us all a clue:

The Cynic can send a private message to a Witch Aligned player every day at Halftime.

Combined with what Pumpkin said about the Cynic, I'm pretty sure this is what happened.

Fynn

03-06-2017, 06:59 AM

I also think I should clarify this now, however much it pains me to do so, but it's probably important that we don't get any false leads at this point.

I made a mistake. I got confused with my role PM and my red statement to the point that I was convinced that Pumpkin's statement contradicted mine. But I was wrong. So I have no solid basis for claiming that someone was lying anymore. I know flip-flopping like this won't do me any favors, but in my defense, this mafia format is kind of a doozy.

However, I still agree that we should take all these rules with a grain of salt. 6 people out of 9 have revealed their statements, with only Scruffington, Quin, and TSoL still not revealing their statements. Again, we don't know how many Witches there are, but I'd imagine it's safe to assume some of them have already revealed their statements. And yet, just because a statement was made by a Witch doesn't automatically mean it'll be a lie. Of course, the Witches gain the advantage by spreading misinformation among us, but maybe there is something to be gained strategically by revealing their actual rule?

Pumpkin

03-06-2017, 11:36 AM

That would explain how the Cynic can communicate with the witches? Unless they were able to from the getgo, but then that might make this ability redundant. I dunno.

FFNut

03-06-2017, 11:59 AM

With Fynn's truth revealed lets assume there are two witches and the halftime message is how one can communicate to the other. That makes scenes with the Karifean twists and also puts the rule on the double kill cancelled out rule that's in play if the miss their halftime move and fail to communicate to each other.

Fynn

03-06-2017, 12:16 PM

Except if Pumpkin's truth is true, that would mean the cynic isn't actually a witch, just a human aligned with the witches - which means they can't kill, just communicate with them, and their goal is the same as that of the witches.

FFNut

03-06-2017, 01:03 PM

So if they are cynical, the win with the witches, yet lose if the town win. Yet they are town?

FFNut

03-06-2017, 01:04 PM

Sorry just trying to think it all through.

Fynn

03-06-2017, 01:14 PM

I think that sums it up pretty well. If my reasoning is sound, then I guess the only thing that differentiates them from Witches is that they'll flip town upon death and that they can't kill. Other than that, they're functionally a Witch.

That is assuming, of course, that both Pumpkin's and my own statements are true. Of course, the only evidence to both of those is that we claim them to be as such, although I see no contradiction at this point, so I think it's relatively safe to assume that if one of them is true, so is the other.

Fynn

03-06-2017, 01:22 PM

Ooh, came up with another thing - if the cynic is technically human-aligned, they also can't lie in their purple truths.

The Summoner of Leviathan

03-06-2017, 01:57 PM

I suppose this is as good time as any, I can corroborate Fynn's and Pumpkin's truth:

The witch does not know who the Cynic is. The Cynic knows who the witch is. The Cynic can also lie with the purple.

(Sorry if it didn't code right, I'm on my cell!)

The Summoner of Leviathan

03-06-2017, 02:00 PM

If a mod could edit that post and make it actually purple that'd be awesome, the tags were there. Apparently I fudged it and when I go to fix it, it asks me to delete it. Stupid mobile skin.

Fynn

03-06-2017, 02:01 PM

Interesting. I wonder, then, if the cynic is forbidden from telling the witch their identity, or if the witch doesn't know from the start but the cynic can let them know.

The phrasing is also interesting - is it just me, or does it indicate that there is only one witch?

Btw, I wonder if the cynic counts as a witch when it comes to our winning conditions - do we need to eliminate them as well, or do they just lose when the witches get lynched?

The Summoner of Leviathan

03-06-2017, 02:07 PM

I was thinking the same thing, which makes it more difficult for the witch. I would assume that the cynic counts as a witch for our win according to Pumpkin's truth so we'd have to get them both. It seems like a more difficult game in that case.

The Summoner of Leviathan

03-06-2017, 02:08 PM

But maybe the witch has another ability to help them? Wasn't there one called "repeat"? Or maybe something else that gives them more power?

Fynn

03-06-2017, 02:14 PM

Even if they do, that would still mean that only one person can kill, so the witch would always have to make a decision between killing and using their power.

The Summoner of Leviathan

03-06-2017, 02:16 PM

That's why I was wondering what "repeat" does, or any of the abilities. We haven't really been talking about them much. I feel like some of them must be OP.

Pumpkin

03-06-2017, 02:31 PM

One witch doesn't seem like much but I guess if the Cynic is on their side, it would make what Formy said about their being around 2 witches for this size game accurate. Even if one technically isn't a witch. And if there is only one witch, they wouldn't have to worry about communicating with others about killing. But then again, why would there specifically be a rule about if more than one tries to kill, it will cancel out? Seems like a weird thing to add when only one person can kill.

That's also 3 truths that all relate to the same thing, which seems like it might be a bit much. Maybe I'm just being paranoid but some of this is just not clicking for me.

So if I'm understanding correctly, there is a cynic player who wants to kill the townies like a witch but probably can't kill, although they might know who the witch(es) are, but they don't know who the cynic is. Which could mean that the cynic might have sent the message to a witch. Also the cynic might be able to lie and would probably come up as a townie if investigated.

Fynn

03-06-2017, 02:38 PM

Yeah, that is basically our dilemma. Unless there is a specific character ability that allows them to identify the cynic, there is no way for us to detect them, unless they lie about their purple truth, since lies usually come out.

Worse still, even if we do lynch a cynic, it's quite possible we won't know we did, since they'll flip human. So even if there is only one real mafia, this gives them a significant edge.

I also agree that there being three truths about one character is suspicious.

FFNut

03-06-2017, 02:55 PM

I don't really see it as suspicious as it is a major twist in the game. I'm more suspicious of the Pained towns myself. It just seems odd that we can have a serial killer on the loose that would destroy both sides, yet flip town.

The Summoner of Leviathan

03-06-2017, 02:57 PM

Or could point to the Cynic playing a larger role than we are aware. Remember, Karifean said there are no vanilla, everyone has an ability.

The Summoner of Leviathan

03-06-2017, 03:00 PM

Remember, we can't win if the Cynic lives. Pumpkin's truth indicates as much.

FFNut

03-06-2017, 03:01 PM

Very true. Though I still can't get over the pained. They are just as dangerous as the witches if the trigger pops out. They will also flip town giving us no clue if we are lynching an enemy or a friend.

Formalhaut

03-06-2017, 04:04 PM

Okay, here is a list of all Purple Statements, with a link to their original reveal, in the order that they were revealed. I will do my best to update this post and link back to it throughout the game.

If you want to find it, utilise the thread search function and type in: ##PS

You should be able to find it due to the unique coding.

Mr. Carnelian
Purple Statement

Three players are capable of screwing with the narrative writeups.
(link) (http://home.eyesonff.com/showthread.php/169552-EoFF-Mafia-XXVIII-Game-Thread-Banquet-of-the-Voyager-Witches?p=3656618&viewfull=1#post3656618)

Pumpkin
Purple Statement

One of the Human Aligned players is actually "Cynical Human Aligned", also known as the "Cynic". They have the goal of a Witch Aligned player and are treated as a Witch Aligned player for everyone else's goals.
(link) (http://home.eyesonff.com/showthread.php/169552-EoFF-Mafia-XXVIII-Game-Thread-Banquet-of-the-Voyager-Witches?p=3656624&viewfull=1#post3656624)

Formalhaut
Purple Statement

When a player dies, they covertly appoint a "Family Alchemist" (taking the title from the previous Alchemist if one exists). The Family Alchemist resolves ties during daytime voting.
(link) (http://home.eyesonff.com/showthread.php/169552-EoFF-Mafia-XXVIII-Game-Thread-Banquet-of-the-Voyager-Witches?p=3656647&viewfull=1#post3656647)

FFNut
Purple Statement

One Human Player is the Village Idiot. This player will receive a night move but it will always backfire on them.
(link) (http://home.eyesonff.com/showthread.php/169552-EoFF-Mafia-XXVIII-Game-Thread-Banquet-of-the-Voyager-Witches?p=3656680&viewfull=1#post3656680)

Laddy
Purple Statement

If a Pained's identity or ability is revealed, their goal changes to wanting to survive alone and kill everyone else.
(link)

The Cynic can send a private message to a Witch Aligned player every day at Halftime.
(http://home.eyesonff.com/showthread.php/169552-EoFF-Mafia-XXVIII-Game-Thread-Banquet-of-the-Voyager-Witches?p=3656769&viewfull=1#post3656769)(link) (http://home.eyesonff.com/showthread.php/169552-EoFF-Mafia-XXVIII-Game-Thread-Banquet-of-the-Voyager-Witches?p=3656869&viewfull=1#post3656869)
(http://home.eyesonff.com/showthread.php/169552-EoFF-Mafia-XXVIII-Game-Thread-Banquet-of-the-Voyager-Witches?p=3656869&viewfull=1#post3656869)

The Summoner of Leviathan
Purple Statement

The Witch does not know who the Cynic is. The Cynic knows who the Witch is. The Cynic can also lie with the purple.
(http://home.eyesonff.com/showthread.php/169552-EoFF-Mafia-XXVIII-Game-Thread-Banquet-of-the-Voyager-Witches?p=3656769&viewfull=1#post3656769)(link) (http://home.eyesonff.com/showthread.php/169552-EoFF-Mafia-XXVIII-Game-Thread-Banquet-of-the-Voyager-Witches?p=3656886&viewfull=1#post3656886)
(http://home.eyesonff.com/showthread.php/169552-EoFF-Mafia-XXVIII-Game-Thread-Banquet-of-the-Voyager-Witches?p=3656869&viewfull=1#post3656869)

Pumpkin

03-06-2017, 04:08 PM

Other than Quin and Scruffington, has everyone else revealed a purple statement?

FFNut

03-06-2017, 04:09 PM

We all have yes.

Formalhaut

03-06-2017, 04:10 PM

Yes. Scruff and Quin are yet to reveal.

Also, I know it has already been said, but three statements on one mechanic (the cynic) seems pretty suspicious to me.

Fynn

03-06-2017, 04:11 PM

I agree, but then again, when you think about it, it's a pretty loaded role

Pumpkin

03-06-2017, 04:11 PM

Really the biggest one for me right now is the statement saying the witch (singular) when Karifean went out of his way to indicate that if more than one tries to kill, it will be cancelled out. So either the cynic CAN kill, or there is more than one witch

Pumpkin

03-06-2017, 04:12 PM

Or maybe Karifean is just loling at me but he seems to take more care than that. Could be wrong though

FFNut

03-06-2017, 04:13 PM

I think it goes with the pained role too Pumkin, as they basically become a serial killer by the sounds of it.

Formalhaut

03-06-2017, 04:15 PM

In principle there's nothing wrong with 3 statements on one mechanic, but I can't help but feel it was awfully conveinient for people to suddenly go "oh, hey, I've just the statement to inform us more about the cynic/letter!"

Then again, it isn't really a stick to beat people with because it would look slightly conveinient regardless, so.

I'm curious about the phrasing of TSoL's statement. it sounds very informal. "the cynic can also lie with the purple."

I was expecting it to end with statement. That it is cut off is peculiar, to say the least.

Fynn

03-06-2017, 04:16 PM

That is a good point. I could argue that this is just stating an obvious rule of mafia, but then again, so many obvious rules have not been stated and revealed through the statements to be important, so you might actually be on to something.

Even though the cynic works for mafia, there's still a big possibility that there are more witches. At which point the Witches would benefit from us thinking there's only one, giving us a false sense of security. Therefore...

##vote: The Summoner of Leviathan

FFNut

03-06-2017, 04:22 PM

I'm not really unsure of his statement. I find Carny's a little more suspicious, plus the bold way he plays. I think the cynical role is a massive twist as to why Karifean gave the secrets for reveal.

Pumpkin

03-06-2017, 04:23 PM

What is it about Carny's that you find suspicious?

FFNut

03-06-2017, 04:25 PM

Everyone else has theirs very specific. His looked like it was paraphrased or made up on the spot. Just the feeling I get reading it.

Fynn

03-06-2017, 04:25 PM

I mean, I get it. He was pretty aggressive at the beginning, pushing for everyone to reveal their statements. To be honest, though, considering the format, that's quite understandable. Still, can't help but feel that he's applying stuff he's learned from the previous mafia...

Pumpkin

03-06-2017, 04:26 PM

So Fynn what is it about TSoL you find suspicious and do you find Carny suspicious as well?

FFNut

03-06-2017, 04:27 PM

just don't trust his truth as real though as like I said, it sounds a little made up.

Formalhaut

03-06-2017, 04:29 PM

There's a conflict in Statements. Of the seven statements currently revealed, only two discuss witches: Fynn's and TSoL's.

Fynn's statement makes it sound like there are at least two witches, plus the cynic (who sends them messages). Notice the "to a witch aligned player". That implies more than one.

Meanwhile, TSoL's statement is pretty clear that there is only one witch.

So basically, we have either one witch (and a cynic) or more than one witch (and a cynic). While it is possible that they are both correct and the differences are incidental, I don't think Karifean would make that kind of switch-up.

So basically, one of them is lying.

Formalhaut

03-06-2017, 04:32 PM

The main reason I find Mr. Carny to not be that suspicious (besides him being my boyfriend, of course :love:) is that he was very willing to sacrifice himself to resolve a tie and prove or disprove my Purple Statement.

I mean it could be a bluff and he's a witch trying to make himself look super-innocent, but if we called him on his bluff and decided that - yes, we do actually want to try that out - he would either have to go along with it and risk being lynched or back out and thus look pretty darn suspicious.

I just don't see a witch making such a death-defying leap like that, especially on Day One when the stakes aren't even that high.

Fynn

03-06-2017, 04:34 PM

Carny a bit, but TSoL gives me a bit more substantial than the simple gut feeling I have with Carn

It's mostly how you drew attention to the fact that not only are there suddenly three statements about the Cynic, but also that he more or less explicitly said there's one witch, which is something that the Witches would probably like us to believe if there were more. Then there's the fact that I'm pretty sure your statement is true because it came before mind instead of afterwards, so you really couldn't have predicted what I would say with my statement, and yet it fits. Of course, this is pretty much a non-argument to anyone besides me since TSoL could basically say the same thing and it'd be his word against mine.

And then there's the thing Formy said that actually confirmed something that I thought right after seeing TSoL's purple statement - that the wording regarding the lying is a bit weird. It doesn't seem to fit the tone of the rest of the statements and looks like it ends pretty abruptly. It's also a pretty convenient thing to lie about.

Pumpkin

03-06-2017, 04:35 PM

I trust Mr. Carny's truth because of the rewrite ability on one of the characters and also because OMGSECRETTIMES BUUUUTT he could have taken a truth and changed the wording slightly to make it more believable. Like maybe one person can screw with the narrative but he wrote 3, because 3 does seem like a lot. So I'm not certain but I'm not immediately suspicious of his claim.

I'm also less inclined to believe TSoL's truth because of the one witch thing in his statement and how it seems to contradict with other information.

With that said, I'm also not for killing a potentially innocent and possibly helpful person without being more certain, personally

FFNut

03-06-2017, 04:35 PM

That move is what me look at him closer though. He said he would go up against a No Lynch, which always turns my eye. It is also is a move that would cement him to the town as town while he would be free to kill whoever off. He is number one on my suspect list.

Formalhaut

03-06-2017, 04:40 PM

I also think Pumpkin is likely not to be suspicious because her statement came pretty much immediately at the start of the day, without prior knowledge and it fits in with at least one of the later statements.

Not sure about Nutty. 'Village Idiot' doesn't seem to fit in with the rest of the flavour here, but then, I've not seen When They Cry so what do I know?

The thing with TsoL's is - and I can't believe I'm using grammar as a point here - there's no commas, only abrupt full stops after each short phrase. All the other statements that aren't very short (like Carny's) have at least a comma somewhere. TSoL said he was using his phone, maybe that explains the abruptness? But then if he was Human he would absolutely have to copy/paste the exact wording.

Ugh. I don't want to accuse TSoL because he got lynched in the first day the last game, and I kinda don't want him to be lynched in the first day again. It's like being eliminated first in those reality shows.

FFNut

03-06-2017, 04:41 PM

I'll also add that if I was handed the Alchemist role I would always vote for the lynch unless I was 100% sure the other person was innocent town. With all these twists I'm not even sure the witches are the biggest danger. My head has been flipped 180 degrees.

Formalhaut

03-06-2017, 04:42 PM

I trust Mr. Carny's truth because of the rewrite ability on one of the characters and also because OMGSECRETTIMES BUUUUTT he could have taken a truth and changed the wording slightly to make it more believable. Like maybe one person can screw with the narrative but he wrote 3, because 3 does seem like a lot. So I'm not certain but I'm not immediately suspicious of his claim.

One person is an easier pill to swallow than three. If he was a witch attempting to fudge the numbers, it is much simpler to simply say one person could rewrite, as opposed to three. If his statement read one person in the first place, why not just say that? Why make things harder for yourself by saying such a large number?

Fynn

03-06-2017, 04:44 PM

I trust Mr. Carny's truth because of the rewrite ability on one of the characters and also because OMGSECRETTIMES BUUUUTT he could have taken a truth and changed the wording slightly to make it more believable. Like maybe one person can screw with the narrative but he wrote 3, because 3 does seem like a lot. So I'm not certain but I'm not immediately suspicious of his claim.

One person is an easier pill to swallow than three. If he was a witch attempting to fudge the numbers, it is much simpler to simply say one person could rewrite, as opposed to three. If his statement read one person in the first place, why not just say that? Why make things harder for yourself by saying such a large number?

Because we're talking about Mr. "Yes We Ken" Carnelian

Pumpkin

03-06-2017, 04:45 PM

That is a good point, I was just trying to say that he could potentially be lying. I personally don't believe he is but I suppose we won't know until we know

Formalhaut

03-06-2017, 04:45 PM

Maybe I'm a little biased, but I don't think he would make the lie harder to swallow just because he Ken.

FFNut

03-06-2017, 04:46 PM

Though going through the descriptions of who is characters on the post only two I counted have a re-write ability. He could have easily added if he looked and counted at least two, and mistook another ability as a written one.

Fynn

03-06-2017, 04:47 PM

I mean, he's not high on my red flag-list, so I really do understand your line of thinking, though his reasoning at the start does seem to suggest he's trying really hard to get in all of our good books

We'll see how it all plays out. I still stand by my vote. We don't really have much time left.

Formalhaut

03-06-2017, 04:47 PM

The possibility that he's lying isn't 0%. He absolutely could be lying as part of some grand narrative he's forming (probably involving himself wearing shades and striking a cool pose).

I just think it is highly likely that he isn't, because lying about the numbers would harm his chances. If anything, it is slightly more likely he is lying about the entire thing, but the ability 'rewrite' plus how Karifean loves the writeups deems that also a fairly remote possibility.

Pumpkin

03-06-2017, 04:47 PM

I only see one rewrite, who has the other one

Formalhaut

03-06-2017, 04:48 PM

How much time do we have, by the way?

Fynn

03-06-2017, 04:49 PM

I think we should all do what Karifean suggested and break down what all the roles can do.

I can do it once I get home. I'm on my phone now so that'd be a bit hard to pull off.

Pumpkin

03-06-2017, 04:49 PM

6ish hours I think?

FFNut

03-06-2017, 04:51 PM

Featherline, and Toya is my two counted.

Formalhaut

03-06-2017, 04:52 PM

Hmmm. Currently, TSoL is most suspicious in my opinion because of the Purple Statement. I would vote for him now, but I think it is unfair to vote for someone without them being able to at least defend themselves against accusations.

Pumpkin

03-06-2017, 04:53 PM

Featherline, and Toya is my two counted.

I see the confusion. Yohya has rewrite, Featherline is Karifean's role, meaning the host and narrator. It's not actually one of us with the ability to change the narrative

Formalhaut

03-06-2017, 04:53 PM

Featherine is Karifean. :p

FFNut

03-06-2017, 04:54 PM

Ahh ok so then there is only one write ability making Carny's truth even more false.

The Summoner of Leviathan

03-06-2017, 04:56 PM

I hate you all, I'm at work. Which is what happened when I got lynched last time. :P

To quickly put it, Carny isn't trustworthy because he volunteered as tribute. If anything it makes me think he has a lynched role which wins if they get lynched. Or something weird like that. He says he thought it through but I pointed out flaws in his thinking. He admitted that it was easily remedied but it bellies the fact that he thought it through. There were flaws in his logic and he was willing to make the humans weaker to test Formy's truth. That spells weird to me.

My truth was copied and pasted from what Karifean sent me. If you think it is weird or going into grammar, take issue with him but I am telling the truth--it is copied from what he sent me.

The Summoner of Leviathan

03-06-2017, 04:57 PM

I wouldn't even vote to lynch Carny because I think that is his win condition ATM.

FFNut

03-06-2017, 04:58 PM

I'm suspicious of Carny, I may be wrong here but he is all in on making him seem town. He has a ton of red flags for me.

The Summoner of Leviathan

03-06-2017, 04:58 PM

Also, people are putting too much into when statements were said. Fynn himself was reluctant to show his until it suited him. He can't then blame me for waiting to do the same. If anything seems a bit weird that he is so gun-ho day one. Anyone too eager on day one is suspicious to me because we are working on little information.

The Summoner of Leviathan

03-06-2017, 04:59 PM

Now I go back to work and cooking.

Formalhaut

03-06-2017, 05:03 PM

Being lynched to win would suggest one role: the Jester (https://wiki.mafiascum.net/index.php?title=Jester).

Not impossible, but even the MafiaWiki says not to use them. Having said that, I can't deny the possibility.

Fynn

03-06-2017, 05:05 PM

As I said before, I misunderstood part of my role PM, which is why I was reluctant to reveal my statement right away. One the halftime write-up appeared, I reread the mognet and found out I was wrong. The write-up was also constructed in such a way that I figured I could benefit everyone by revealing my statement at that point.

I'm not saying you revealing your statement is incriminating. Honestly, I didn't suspect you at first, but then Pumpkin and Formy pointed out things that made me doubt you. And I also stated my reasoning against a no lynch for this specific game in the other thread - with so many potentially town-hurting powers, even on townies, it's really safer for us to get rid of someone rather than vote no lynch. I'm open to changing my mind if you can convince me otherwise, though

Formalhaut

03-06-2017, 05:05 PM

Thanks for your input TSoL!

Having said that, I'm still not hundred-percent on the theory that Carny is a witch. Only one of the abilities are obviously to do with writing (rewrite).

With that being the case, why would he still say three players have the ability to alter the writeups? I guess there's the possibility that he goofed, but that's a pretty simple error to goof up on, and it wouldn't have happened in the first place if he stuck to there being one person who can alter the writeups.

Fynn

03-06-2017, 05:07 PM

Formy, why are you defending him so vehemently even though he's not even the top suspect and the main topic of discussion at this point?

Fynn

03-06-2017, 05:08 PM

Even if he goofed, he still screwed with the statement. If he's not a witch or a cynic, he cannot alter them in any way. Unless, of course, it turns out there are more roles that can do it

FFNut

03-06-2017, 05:09 PM

I counted two on my vision including Karifean. If he did the same then thought possibility the cynic as a writer. It would give him three.

Formalhaut

03-06-2017, 05:09 PM

He's the current person of discussion at the moment? TSoL and others have accused him of being a witch, something I'm not convinced of myself at the moment, so I'm saying why I'm not that convinced.

Whether or not that is 'vehement' is up to you to decide. All I can say is, Carny's guilt or innocence has been brought up as a topic of discussion and I'm responding to it.

FFNut

03-06-2017, 05:09 PM

That is just my thought.

Formalhaut

03-06-2017, 05:10 PM

Well, to clarify, TSoL thinks he's a Jester, which is basically an anti-town role, and Nutty is suspicious of him. I don't see it, myself.

Fynn

03-06-2017, 05:12 PM

To me it's just weird how you seem to simply reject the fact that that behavior is suspicious in the least. I use the term "vehement" because you're trying to convince us he's 100% clean, even though you have no basis at all to believe so. Nobody aside from you is convinced - at least not to that degree - that the sacrifice thing is done with good intentions

FFNut

03-06-2017, 05:12 PM

You may be bias, but to me he just doesn't add up. Something is off.

Pumpkin

03-06-2017, 05:14 PM

Its hard not to turn on people in situations like this that breed distrust. It stands out to me how aggressively anti-Carny FFNut is, and TSoL was quick to point his finger that way as well. But I don't like distrusting people on pretty weak suspicions, honestly. I feel like I need more info before I can make a more educated guess as to who the witch(es) is/are

FFNut

03-06-2017, 05:14 PM

It could be said for him though that he may be using the same Tatics Scruff used in the last game by being so aggressive that he has to be town.

Fynn

03-06-2017, 05:16 PM

Formy, either you don't see it because you're biased, or you know something we don't.

I don't think we need to go into the latter, but if it's the former, remember this is mafia - we've been assigned roles randomly and we're all constantly evolving our playstyles. You can't rely on preconceptions and rule out a possibility based on that. Trust no one - the golden rule of mafia

FFNut

03-06-2017, 05:17 PM

What Fynn said, I trust no one. In this game I don't even trust Karifean.

Fynn

03-06-2017, 05:17 PM

For the record, I'm also not convinced it's Carny, but I can't deny that he's given signals that could potentially be suspicious - we need to keep our minds open and consider every possibility. Otherwise, we lose

Formalhaut

03-06-2017, 05:26 PM

Oh, I can see that things don't add up. But that's kinda what I'm saying. If he was a witch, he's made so many pretty obvious errors: his statement with a high number which doesn't mesh with the abilities, the self-sacrifice thing, being blatantly earnest and excited at just about everything.

And he's done all that without any provocation. It doesn't add up. Which is why I think he's Town at the moment. Mafia/witches should blend in, not run around making themselves vulnerable to suspicion. It just doesn't fit.

Of course, should he do something I think is suspicious, that'll change. For now, he's pretty far down my suspicion list because he's done so many openly dodgy things, I find it hard believing a witch ally hasn't slapped him upside the face.

I'd also prefer not to be lectured on how to do my job. I'm playing Mafia. That involves hunting for witches, but almost as important is looking for cues that may indicate Town, or at least Town-likely tells. All I can say is in my opinion, Carny is unlikely to be a witch.

Though if he is Town, why the self-sacrifice? It could be that he just wants to be that guy, or maybe he feels he won't bring much to the game, and thus he is the most expendable role? What could that be? Maybe he was told his night role is defunct? Or maybe something else?

Fynn

03-06-2017, 05:31 PM

You know, he could have still gone all "pick me!" precisely because people would think that's way too obvious and gloss him over.

If you find my time patronizing, I apologize, but I felt that needed being pointing out

He still made a statement that's most likely false and hasn't been modkilled for breaking the rules. That means, based on what we think we know so far, that he's most likely a witch or a cynic. Nobody else can alter the statements, as far as we know, so either there's someone else who can do it, Karifean purposefully gave him false data (for what reason?), or there are actually three people who can screw with the write-ups? (Why and how?)

Fynn

03-06-2017, 05:32 PM

*tone not time

Formalhaut

03-06-2017, 05:40 PM

True, he's not been modkilled. As far as I know, no-one has been modkilled yet (that'd be declared, surely).

I still don't see him lying about three people to be terribly likely. The reason we think his statement is sehr dodgy is because of the number three, which doesn't mesh with the names of the abilities. I find it difficult to believe he wouldn't settle for a safer number, like one. I mean, if he said one person could alter the writeups, it wouldn't be seen as suspicious.

His statement seems so self-incriminating, and easily caught out. If he's lying, he's not only shot himself in the foot. He's shot himself in the head.

Fynn

03-06-2017, 05:43 PM

But think about it. What kind of sense does three people screwing with the write-up make? Do they screw with it one after another? Does Karifean determine the order and send them the ammended write-up? Or do they all screw with the original and we're presented with three versions of the write-up every day?

Formalhaut

03-06-2017, 05:43 PM

Talking about the abilities, some of their names are terribly vague. Some of them seem to mesh with power roles we all know and love (Investigate seems like Cop to me) but others are way more abstract, like "Cute". What the hell does "Cute" mean?

Formalhaut

03-06-2017, 05:44 PM

To be honest, I have no idea. It could be any of the options you've outlined, or an entirely different one. Until someone is killed, we don't even know how in-depth they are.

FFNut

03-06-2017, 05:50 PM

Very true Formy. I'm not 100% on Carny, but he is on the top of my list. However how many more times have I been wrong in the past? To many to count. I haven't voted yet because really there isn't a lot to go on yet. Would love to know what other things people come up with. If we can nail the witch day one or the cynical player we will be on easy street coasting.