I don't think I have ever felt this pathetic about the White Sox organization. This even includes years in the late '80s when we really stunk. When Ken Williams said that Jerry Manuel is safe for the rest of this season and next, whatever energy I had was sucked right out of me. I have no confidence in our current general manager. While several of his trades that were busts were sensible at the time they were made, Williams has decimated this organization.

As we all know, our organization's current ranking by Baseball America is now No. 30. Before Williams assumed the general managerial reins, BA consistently ranked us among the top of the major league teams. As if our problems at the major league level aren't enough, this is an indication that our overall future is very bleak. And, of course, as putrid as our team could be, it will hurt the already putrid attendance even further and, in turn, continue the cycle of mediocrity on the South Side.

Williams has admitted responsibility for the state of the team in his endorsement of Manuel. As far as I'm concerned, all he is doing is falling on his sword. If Williams had any real guts, he would realize the negative impact his inexperience has had on the organization and resign. The longer he is around, the more things get worse.

We are not going to catch Minnesota. Forget about it. For the betterment of our organization, we will have to trade guys like Ray Durham and Carlos Lee before the July 31st trading deadline. These trades could shape the direction of our ballclub in the coming years. This is the biggest reason I want Williams out. With his track record on trades to this point, I fear he will give these players away for nothing.

I call on Ken Williams to resign this week and let Ron Schueler assume the general managerial duties for the balance of the season. While we have all had our criticisms of Schueler, none of us would dispute that fact that he is ions better than Williams. Ken Williams could go down as one of the worst general managers in the history of Chicago sports. And we have had many a bad GM in our sports history.

I am going to Baltimore this weekend, where the Sox are playing the Orioles. I have to admit to you that I am not as excited about the trip now as I was when I planned the trip. I am looking more forward to seeing the sights in Baltimore than I am in seeing the games at Oriole Park. I plan to do whatever I can to enjoy myself in Baltimore, and I am not going to let the White Sox ruin that for me.

NUKE_CLEVELAND

07-15-2002, 07:50 PM

Originally posted by ˇViva Mágglio!
I don't think I have ever felt this pathetic about the White Sox organization. This even includes years in the late '80s when we really stunk. When Ken Williams said that Jerry Manuel is safe for the rest of this season and next, whatever energy I had was sucked right out of me. I have no confidence in our current general manager. While several of his trades that were busts were sensible at the time they were made, Williams has decimated this organization.

As we all know, our organization's current ranking by Baseball America is now No. 30. Before Williams assumed the general managerial reins, BA consistently ranked us among the top of the major league teams. As if our problems at the major league level aren't enough, this is an indication that our overall future is very bleak. And, of course, as putrid as our team could be, it will hurt the already putrid attendance even further and, in turn, continue the cycle of mediocrity on the South Side.

Williams has admitted responsibility for the state of the team in his endorsement of Manuel. As far as I'm concerned, all he is doing is falling on his sword. If Williams had any real guts, he would realize the negative impact his inexperience has had on the organization and resign. The longer he is around, the more things get worse.

We are not going to catch Minnesota. Forget about it. For the betterment of our organization, we will have to trade guys like Ray Durham and Carlos Lee before the July 31st trading deadline. These trades could shape the direction of our ballclub in the coming years. This is the biggest reason I want Williams out. With his track record on trades to this point, I fear he will give these players away for nothing.

I call on Ken Williams to resign this week and let Ron Schueler assume the general managerial duties for the balance of the season. While we have all had our criticisms of Schueler, none of us would dispute that fact that he is ions better than Williams. Ken Williams could go down as one of the worst general managers in the history of Chicago sports. And we have had many a bad GM in our sports history.

I am going to Baltimore this weekend, where the Sox are playing the Orioles. I have to admit to you that I am not as excited about the trip now as I was when I planned the trip. I am looking more forward to seeing the sights in Baltimore than I am in seeing the games at Oriole Park. I plan to do whatever I can to enjoy myself in Baltimore, and I am not going to let the White Sox ruin that for me.

Look at it this way. Your trip to Baltimore will allow you to see what a real ballpark looks like.

Viva Magglio

07-15-2002, 07:52 PM

Originally posted by NUKE_CLEVELAND

Look at it this way. Your trip to Baltimore will allow you to see what a real ballpark looks like.

I do not want this thread to be a ballpark tangent but focus on KW instead. Nevertheless, are you saying the trip will allow me to see what we should have built in the South Loop?

FanOf14

07-15-2002, 07:52 PM

I really wish JR would sell this team to someone who wants to win. If JR did that, KW would be gone with the blink of an eye. I am so disappointed in this team. I really wasn't expecting much with so many guys coming back from injury, but I didn't think it would be this bad. Can't really say much more now than that (without getting booted for too many cuss words) at this time.

NUKE_CLEVELAND

07-15-2002, 07:54 PM

Originally posted by ˇViva Mágglio!

I do not want this thread to be a ballpark tangent but focus on KW instead. Nevertheless, are you saying the trip will allow me to see what we should have built in the South Loop?

Yep. LOL

Back to the point though, KW is totally worthless & so is the rest of the coaching staff. JM needs to fire the lot of em & start fresh with a real crew.

raul12

07-15-2002, 08:04 PM

Originally posted by FanOf14
I really wish JR would sell this team to someone who wants to win. If JR did that, KW would be gone with the blink of an eye. I am so disappointed in this team. I really wasn't expecting much with so many guys coming back from injury, but I didn't think it would be this bad. Can't really say much more now than that (without getting booted for too many cuss words) at this time.

the pisser about all this is that i just can't figure out what's going through JR's head. he should realize that the first chicago team that wins the big kahuna will be forever loved by chicago. this city is so damn desperate for a WS ring, that even if he went out and spent over $100M, if it brought us a ring, he'd get paid back ten times over. if the scrubbies somehow win it before the sox, the fan base for the sox will be next to nothing.

Viva Magglio

07-15-2002, 08:23 PM

Originally posted by raul12

the pisser about all this is that i just can't figure out what's going through JR's head. he should realize that the first chicago team that wins the big kahuna will be forever loved by chicago. this city is so damn desperate for a WS ring, that even if he went out and spent over $100M, if it brought us a ring, he'd get paid back ten times over. if the scrubbies somehow win it before the sox, the fan base for the sox will be next to nothing.

If the scrubbies win it before us, it will be the worst moment of our lives outside of occurrences involving death and destruction.

Clarkdog

07-15-2002, 11:35 PM

Originally posted by ˇViva Mágglio!

If the scrubbies win it before us, it will be the worst moment of our lives outside of occurrences involving death and destruction.

If the Flubs win the Series before the Sox I fear it will be the death of the franchise.

soxtalker

07-16-2002, 12:10 AM

Originally posted by FanOf14
I really wish JR would sell this team to someone who wants to win. If JR did that, KW would be gone with the blink of an eye.

JR does want to win the world series. I believe him when he said that he would have given up the six Bulls championships for one in baseball. The problem is that he doesn't know how to win it. A lot of fans would have him spend incredible sums of money. Even if he had that ability -- and he is only a minority owner among many -- he hasn't demonstrated that he can spend wisely. The comment about KW, though, is, I believe, at the core of the problem. He needs to hire good management, and they need to be held accountable.

SI1020

07-16-2002, 08:28 AM

Originally posted by raul12

the pisser about all this is that i just can't figure out what's going through JR's head. he should realize that the first chicago team that wins the big kahuna will be forever loved by chicago. this city is so damn desperate for a WS ring, that even if he went out and spent over $100M, if it brought us a ring, he'd get paid back ten times over. if the scrubbies somehow win it before the sox, the fan base for the sox will be next to nothing. You are absolutely right about this. Reinsdorf grew up in Brooklyn in the 40's and 50's during the heyday of the Dodgers. He supposedly played stickball with some of the Dodger players including the great Duke Snider. He claims to be a baseball fan first. Wasn't he quoted that he would prefer a WS ring over all six of his Bulls rings? I don't trust him. I know he was very serious about moving the team to St Petersburg in 1988. That would have been a great business move wouldn't it? Given the current state of baseball I am now very worried about the future of White Sox baseball on the south side of Chicago. Although I no longer live in the Chi area they are and should remain the Chicago White Sox. I am far from sure that will always be the case.

idseer

07-16-2002, 08:33 AM

Originally posted by soxtalker

JR does want to win the world series. I believe him when he said that he would have given up the six Bulls championships for one in baseball. The problem is that he doesn't know how to win it. A lot of fans would have him spend incredible sums of money. Even if he had that ability -- and he is only a minority owner among many -- he hasn't demonstrated that he can spend wisely. The comment about KW, though, is, I believe, at the core of the problem. He needs to hire good management, and they need to be held accountable.

i cannot believe someone still defends this absolute horror of an owner! he needs to hire good management? well DUH!

he's known he's had lousy management for years! do you see him caring enough to make a change? and don't kid yourself that he's just a minority owner. he's the boss and what he says goes.
all i can figure is .... you must be a relative of his.

foulkesfan11

07-16-2002, 08:39 AM

Originally posted by idseer

i cannot believe someone still defends this absolute horror of an owner! he needs to hire good management? well DUH!

he's known he's had lousy management for years! do you see him caring enough to make a change? and don't kid yourself that he's just a minority owner. he's the boss and what he says goes.
all i can figure is .... you must be a relative of his.

Classic *****! I say give them all the boot!

soxtalker

07-16-2002, 01:51 PM

Originally posted by idseer

i cannot believe someone still defends this absolute horror of an owner! he needs to hire good management? well DUH!

he's known he's had lousy management for years! do you see him caring enough to make a change?

Calm down for a second! Don't interpret my statements as defending JR. I'd also like to see him and his co-owners sell out.

I just think that it gives an owner a pass when people say that they "don't want to win". The only owner that I can think of that probably falls into that category is the owner of the Minnesota Twins, as he has been eager to close out his franchise for a hefty profit. Most of the others have a signficant financial and personal incentive to win. But I suppose that what people mean by the phrase "don't want to win" is that JR won't do what is necessary to win. That's easy to agree with, but it is the further discussion of what he should do and why he won't do it that are tough.

You seem to indicate that it is obvious that JR needs to hire better management. Well, in retrospect, I suppose so, but I guess that the real question is why he hires such poor management. There was a good analysis in another thread of the GM's that JR has hired through his tenure as owner; the bottom line was that he tended to fire the ones that had promise because he didn't get along with them. (I should say that I'm more concerned with the GM position. I think that we've actually had a few good managers along the way.) So, I don't know if he realizes -- at least at the time -- that he's had bad management for years. It looks like he makes a standard management error -- he keeps the people he likes and fires those he doesn't like. He definitely doesn't hold his GM's accountable. Schueler wouldn't have been given the "GM as long as he wants it" status if that were the case. And today, KW would be on the way out. (And we could, of course, find an example in his basketball operations...)

Originally posted by idseer
and don't kid yourself that he's just a minority owner. he's the boss and what he says goes.

Actually, I don't know how true that is. Yes, he's the managing partner, and what he says goes -- on a short-term basis. But I don't know what the interaction is with the other owners. For example, let's say that JR decided that he was going to spend $200M on salaries next year? That would require more capital from the existing owners or a line of credit backed by them.

I could never understand why all these other owners would give over control to an owner with such a small minority interest. It seems to give JR all the control over their investment for very little of the cost. The other investors are just throwing their money in with no say in how it is invested or the ability to get it out? That doesn't make sense! So I wonder if these other owners aren't really exerting more control than we see. That isn't a defense of JR; he's part of this and set it up. But it could mean that we never actually see the complete forces pulling the strings in the ownership circle.

George Steinbrenner feels the full pressure of the media and fans in NY; the buck truly does stop with him. In contrast the managers in a corporation like the Cubs probably don't feel the pressure personally as much, since they have to answer to their diverse corporate ownership. What kind of situation is JR really in, and what impact does it have on our team?

Long post. Bottom line -- JR and his co-owners should sell out to a single owner.

Procol Harum

07-16-2002, 02:21 PM

Originally posted by raul12

the pisser about all this is that i just can't figure out what's going through JR's head. he should realize that the first chicago team that wins the big kahuna will be forever loved by chicago.

Go figure--just more evidence that making millions in business seems to have very little relationship to the special savvy required to run a quality sports franchise. Exhibit A: Bill Wirtz.

idseer

07-16-2002, 04:16 PM

Originally posted by soxtalker

I just think that it gives an owner a pass when people say that they "don't want to win". The only owner that I can think of that probably falls into that category is the owner of the Minnesota Twins, as he has been eager to close out his franchise for a hefty profit. Most of the others have a signficant financial and personal incentive to win. But I suppose that what people mean by the phrase "don't want to win" is that JR won't do what is necessary to win. That's easy to agree with, but it is the further discussion of what he should do and why he won't do it that are tough.

with regard to the phrase 'not wanting to win', what i mean is JR seems to be satisfied with turning a profit. i believe that's the only 'winning' he cares about. sure he'd be happy if we won it all, but as long as he keeps the sox respectable and keeps revenue vs costs at a certain level, he's happy. in MY view, that's not wanting to win. you may say well he can't do anything about that ... i say, if that's the case, he's not interested in winning and he should sell the team!

Originally posted by soxtalker

Actually, I don't know how true that is. Yes, he's the managing partner, and what he says goes -- on a short-term basis. But I don't know what the interaction is with the other owners. For example, let's say that JR decided that he was going to spend $200M on salaries next year? That would require more capital from the existing owners or a line of credit backed by them.

I could never understand why all these other owners would give over control to an owner with such a small minority interest. It seems to give JR all the control over their investment for very little of the cost. The other investors are just throwing their money in with no say in how it is invested or the ability to get it out? That doesn't make sense! So I wonder if these other owners aren't really exerting more control than we see. That isn't a defense of JR; he's part of this and set it up. But it could mean that we never actually see the complete forces pulling the strings in the ownership circle.

see above. as long as he's profitable why should the lesser owners say anything? they probably know less than he does and they're trusting him to remain in the black.
as for your example, if he were to step out of character like that, they probably would question it.

Originally posted by soxtalker

.......
Long post. Bottom line -- JR and his co-owners should sell out to a single owner.

we certainly agree here!
sorry about the 'relative' quip. :)

SI1020

07-16-2002, 05:41 PM

In 1981 when Bill Veeck felt compelled to once again sell out his first choice was Edward DeBartolo Sr a self made multimillionaire from Youngstown Ohio who made his fortune mostly by building suburban shopping malls. Debartolo was presented to the AL owners by Veeck for their approval. I'm not positive about this but I believe you needed a 3/4 vote to get approved. The first vote was 8-6 for EDB. Bowie Kuhn was executing a quiet but vicious behind the scenes smear campaign against EDB. If you are of Italian ancestry you know exactly what I'm talking about and if you are not you should. The second vote was 11-3 against. Mr. DeBartolo and his group were dead in the water. Out of nowhere came Jerry Reinsdorf and his then NO 1 sidekick Eddie Einhorn and before you know it they had the team. I didn't like them from the get go and nicknamed them "the Bobsey Twins". EDB of course went on to buy the SF 49ers of the NFL and the Pittsburgh Penguins of the NHL. Neither team or league seemed tainted by his presence and ownership. Indeed he ran first class operations, spent money freely but wisely and won titles in both sports. His only son kind of made a hash of things after his death, but it does not detract from his own personal legacy. So I guess the point of this long rant is look what might have been ours and look what we got instead. Finally, let me say it once again. Another strike could kill a number of franchises including ours.

Daver

07-16-2002, 05:45 PM

Originally posted by SI1020
In 1981 when Bill Veeck felt compelled to once again sell out his first choice was Edward DeBartolo Sr a self made multimillionaire from Youngstown Ohio who made his fortune mostly by building suburban shopping malls. Debartolo was presented to the AL owners by Veeck for their approval. I'm not positive about this but I believe you needed a 3/4 vote to get approved. The first vote was 8-6 for EDB. Bowie Kuhn was executing a quiet but vicious behind the scenes smear campaign against EDB. If you are of Italian ancestry you know exactly what I'm talking about and if you are not you should. The second vote was 11-3 against. Mr. DeBartolo and his group were dead in the water. Out of nowhere came Jerry Reinsdorf and his then NO 1 sidekick Eddie Einhorn and before you know it they had the team. I didn't like them from the get go and nicknamed them "the Bobsey Twins". EDB of course went on to buy the SF 49ers of the NFL and the Pittsburgh Penguins of the NHL. Neither team or league seemed tainted by his presence and ownership. Indeed he ran first class operations, spent money freely but wisely and won titles in both sports. His only son kind of made a hash of things after his death, but it does not detract from his own personal legacy. So I guess the point of this long rant is look what might have been ours and look what we got instead. Finally, let me say it once again. Another strike could kill a number of franchises including ours.

Eddie Debartolo Jr.,not Sr.,bought the 49er's,and was forced to give up his ownership for hiding his dealings in owning a good chunk of a casino,as well as other undisclosed indegressions not tolerated by the powers that be in the NFL.

SI1020

07-16-2002, 06:06 PM

Originally posted by daver

Eddie Debartolo Jr.,not Sr.,bought the 49er's,and was forced to give up his ownership for hiding his dealings in owning a good chunk of a casino,as well as other undisclosed indegressions not tolerated by the powers that be in the NFL. It was Daddy's dough and like I said Junior made a hash of things. EDB grew up in Youngstown Ohio a tough and corrupt town. Now it is a depressing bankrupt town as all the mills have closed. In the 1950's and 1960's Youngstown was nicknamed "bombtown USA". One of the bombees was EDB whose construction sites were regularly sabotaged and bombed from 1952-54, allegedly because he would not pay protection to the proper people. It was a crocodile infested swamp that Mr DeBartolo had to swim in. He was also somewhat flashy if in an understated way and had an admitted gambling habit. I do not pretend to be a major insider but I can tell you with confidence that people who worked for him generally liked him. I may have opened up a can of worms here and if it is unpopular so be it but I would have rather he bought the team than JR. He loved to gamble but he loved to compete and he loved to win more than anything else.