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Re: Seriously, Do The Ravens Need Vonta Leach?

Originally Posted by runrayrun27

I find it funny how almost every discussion about a player on offence for us ends up being about Cam's offense and how someone isn't a good fit in it. Cam is a bad OC for this team and should have been fired. That was the worst decision they made this year IMO

Amazing isn't it. The thread about the post- Reed/ Lewis era on defense came quite close to going into how much Cameron sucks as an offensive coordinator.

Keeping Cameron as an offensive coordinator is going to be a decision that the Ravens regret.

Re: Seriously, Do The Ravens Need Vonta Leach?

Originally Posted by srobert96

The thread is about the value of Leach so the team ypc is valid. The rushing offense was less productive in 2011 than in 2009. Rice averaged 5.3 and McGahee 5.0 with Leron as the fullback vs Rice 4.7 and Williams 4.1 with Leach.

Maybe because our OL was significantly better in 09 than it was last year... Leach isn't the only one out there blocking

Re: Seriously, Do The Ravens Need Vonta Leach?

Maybe because our OL was significantly better in 09 than it was last year... Leach isn't the only one out there blocking

I've tried saying that to him, and he can't seem to come up with an argument for it, he is arguing with logic here.

Honestly, the contract is probably too big for a FB, but he plays a critical role in the way this offense runs. And he is the best lead blocker in the NFL right now, to say that Rice would be better off without him is crazy. We had Rice run without a FB in certain games back in 2010, and he had his worse rushing season then (apart from 08 where he was hurt).

Re: Seriously, Do The Ravens Need Vonta Leach?

Originally Posted by leachisabeast

I've tried saying that to him, and he can't seem to come up with an argument for it, he is arguing with logic here.

Honestly, the contract is probably too big for a FB, but he plays a critical role in the way this offense runs. And he is the best lead blocker in the NFL right now, to say that Rice would be better off without him is crazy. We had Rice run without a FB in certain games back in 2010, and he had his worse rushing season then (apart from 08 where he was hurt).

Rice wouldn't be better off without him but would the team be better off with that money allocated differently? That's the real question. Would the Ravens have been better off with a rookie FB and a much better free agent WR than Jacobi Jones or maybe one of the offensive lineman that they pursued but couldn't afford? Is Rice worse off with a lesser fullback than the team is improved by a better player at a key position? That's what the issue is.

Re: Seriously, Do The Ravens Need Vonta Leach?

Originally Posted by leachisabeast

I've tried saying that to him, and he can't seem to come up with an argument for it, he is arguing with logic here.

Honestly, the contract is probably too big for a FB, but he plays a critical role in the way this offense runs. And he is the best lead blocker in the NFL right now, to say that Rice would be better off without him is crazy. We had Rice run without a FB in certain games back in 2010, and he had his worse rushing season then (apart from 08 where he was hurt).

I really do question how much of Rice's production was Leach and how much of it was that extra shot in the arm of knowing that he's playing for a contract.

Rice had over 1700 total yards in 2010, he had no OL and no FB. It's not like he's a slouch without Leach. Leach contributes but he's a luxury to have. He's not a necessity.

Re: Seriously, Do The Ravens Need Vonta Leach?

Originally Posted by wickedsolo

I don't think Ray Rice is a great fit for Cam's version of the Coryell anyway. Rice is a hell of a back. Arguably the best RB in the NFL right now when all things are considered, but I think he'd be so much more effective in an offense similar to what the Giants run.

Did I imagine things, or did Ray Rice lead the NFL in yards from scrimmage last season?

Re: Seriously, Do The Ravens Need Vonta Leach?

Originally Posted by GOTA

Rice wouldn't be better off without him but would the team be better off with that money allocated differently? That's the real question. Would the Ravens have been better off with a rookie FB and a much better free agent WR than Jacobi Jones or maybe one of the offensive lineman that they pursued but couldn't afford? Is Rice worse off with a lesser fullback than the team is improved by a better player at a key position? That's what the issue is.

Interesting thoughts and I would tend to agree that these are questions that should be asked. However, it all comes back around to Cam, IMO.

What would be the point of using that $$$ in another receiver or a better receiving option when you know Cam is going to use him sparingly.

Re: Seriously, Do The Ravens Need Vonta Leach?

Originally Posted by JimZipCode

Did I imagine things, or did Ray Rice lead the NFL in yards from scrimmage last season?

How much more effective could he possibly be?

This is not a difficult concept. Rice produced a lot of rushing yards last year, but he produced less with each opportunity than he did in 2009. It's a question of per-play effectiveness. He was over a half yard per carry (.6 to be exact) better in 2009 than 2011, which is a huge divide--by way of further explanation, .6 yard per carry separated the #1 back and the #14 back by that measure last year.

That's (one piece of) the statistical answer to your question. As for what our eyes are actually seeing on the field, Ray Rice was good last year, but he had noticeable flaws to his game. He didn't produce in short yardage, he frequently didn't follow his blocks well, and he went down on first contact far more than in past years. I don't know what else to tell you. Ray Rice could be, and has been, a better running back than he was in 2011, at least in certain areas. I think that statement is airtight.

Is Vonta Leach worth his contract? That's hard to say and you'll hear a lot of different answers. No one would really question if Leach is making a contribution to this team (he clearly is) or whether he's the best at his position (he clearly is.)

The question is, is the best FB in the NFL worth more than whatever else you can do with the money? It's pure speculation and there are a lot of unknown variables in the equation. Even so, I think you're going to be hard pressed to say that 3.6 million a year is better spent on a FB than, say, an OL, WR, LB, etc.

FWIW, if the choice would have been having Vonta Leach in 2011 vs. a rookie FB in 2011 and say Evan Mathis this past offseason, the answer is obviously Mathis. The team could have put that money to good use, but it's not a guarantee that whoever they signed would actually constitute "good use."

Re: Seriously, Do The Ravens Need Vonta Leach?

Interesting thoughts and I would tend to agree that these are questions that should be asked. However, it all comes back around to Cam, IMO.

What would be the point of using that $$$ in another receiver or a better receiving option when you know Cam is going to use him sparingly.

Exactly. Cam will only use certain players in his scheme. Like the FB. So why not get a FB who is fast and can actually has hands and can pick up yards after catches when cam calls these plays for the FB out of the backfield. Leach had more catches than our #3WR last year. Were not utilizing players that fit cam scheme. I dont think the ravens know what they want to do with the offense. Is this Flacco teams or running offense? We could pick up a recieving FB and a run blocking FB with change left over for what they are paying Leach.

Re: Seriously, Do The Ravens Need Vonta Leach?

So what "much better receiver than Jacoby Jones" type receiver are we talking? Leach has a cap hit of around 3 mill or something this year, 3 mill extra gets you who? Randy Moss? Like everyone says here, the 3rd receiver on this team is not that important when Cam is calling the plays, Leach even had more catches than the 3rd receiver in 2011. Besides, it's highly doubtful that Leach gets cut before his contract expires, they would lose more than save, and would be losing quite frankly one of our best offensive players, as painful as that may sound to some people with him being a fullback.

Re: Seriously, Do The Ravens Need Vonta Leach?

Originally Posted by leachisabeast

So what "much better receiver than Jacoby Jones" type receiver are we talking? Leach has a cap hit of around 3 mill or something, 3 mill extra gets you who? Randy Moss? Like everyone says here, the 3rd receiver on this team is not that important when Cam is calling the plays, Leach even had more catches than the 3rd receiver in 2011. Besides, it's highly doubtful that Leach gets cut before his contract expires, they would lose more than save, and would be losing quite frankly one of our best offensive players, as painful as that may sound to some people being a fullback.

Of course Leach isn't getting cut. That's not even a debate and isn't happening. That doesn't mean paying a FB all that money was the right decision.

The rules have changed to the point that teams that focus on the run aren't winning Super Bowls. That means a lot more running out of spread and 3 receiver sets. Fullbacks just aren't on the field that much anymore. Once Leach's contract expires after next season you aren't going to see another fullback breaking the record contract that he received. Those days are over.

Re: Seriously, Do The Ravens Need Vonta Leach?

Originally Posted by NjRavensFan

Maybe because our OL was significantly better in 09 than it was last year... Leach isn't the only one out there blocking

Michael Oher was a rookie RT. Jared Gaither missed 5 games. Chester started for the first 5 games before giving way to Yanda late. yanda was coming off major Knee surgery from previous year. Birk and Grubbs were the other starters.

2010 was the year in which the Oline hindered production. Losing Gaither required the team to move Oher to LT which was a miserable fail. Moved Yanda to RT in which he was below average for a RT. Chester started at RG and was exposed.

The Ravens oline has hardly been a strength in any of the past 3 years.

For the record I like Leach. I don't know whether he is overpaid or not. I am of the opinion that Rice who has great numbers would have even better rushing numbers in a single back offense which we have never seen him do. I also think the Oline is poorly coached and has been for the past 3 years. The Ravens are not a good short yardage rushing team with the best blocking fullback in the league. They really missed McGahee in those situations last year.

Re: Seriously, Do The Ravens Need Vonta Leach?

Originally Posted by leachisabeast

So what "much better receiver than Jacoby Jones" type receiver are we talking? Leach has a cap hit of around 3 mill or something this year, 3 mill extra gets you who? Randy Moss? Like everyone says here, the 3rd receiver on this team is not that important when Cam is calling the plays, Leach even had more catches than the 3rd receiver in 2011. Besides, it's highly doubtful that Leach gets cut before his contract expires, they would lose more than save, and would be losing quite frankly one of our best offensive players, as painful as that may sound to some people with him being a fullback.

Let's back up a bit here. A lot of people seem to have accepted the argument that Cam's offense does not use a 3rd WR to any significant effect and that the FB position is more important in that offense. That argument isn't just true on its face. In 2009, Kelley Washington had 34 catches out of the #3 WR spot and was very productive when he was on the field. In 2010 a broken down TJ Houshmandzadeh had 30 catches out of the #3 WR spot and was fairly productive despite being a shell of himself.

In 2011, we DID use a #3 WR, only he wasn't listed as a WR on the depth chart. His name is Dennis Pitta, and he had 54 catches while lining up at slot WR 70% of the time he was on the field. So the argument that "Cam won't use a 3rd WR anyway" is just plain wrong--I think Cam is one of the worst OCs in the NFL, but don't level charges against him that are just patently false. He has used a 3rd WR when that player has been an adequate contributor.

This offense still uses a FB more than any other team, but all that means is that the FB is on the field 50% of the time instead of 30% of the time. The playing-time divide between the FB and the #3 WR (or #2 TE as the case may be) is probably a lot closer than you think.

And by the way, I'm not sure the 11 million the Ravens spent on Leach would have been best spent on a WR anyway. I think that money would have been better spent on OL.

Re: Seriously, Do The Ravens Need Vonta Leach?

Originally Posted by srobert96

Michael Oher was a rookie RT. Jared Gaither missed 5 games. Chester started for the first 5 games before giving way to Yanda late. yanda was coming off major Knee surgery from previous year. Birk and Grubbs were the other starters.

2010 was the year in which the Oline hindered production. Losing Gaither required the team to move Oher to LT which was a miserable fail. Moved Yanda to RT in which he was below average for a RT. Chester started at RG and was exposed.

The Ravens oline has hardly been a strength in any of the past 3 years.

For the record I like Leach. I don't know whether he is overpaid or not. I am of the opinion that Rice who has great numbers would have even better rushing numbers in a single back offense which we have never seen him do. I also think the Oline is poorly coached and has been for the past 3 years. The Ravens are not a good short yardage rushing team with the best blocking fullback in the league. They really missed McGahee in those situations last year.

The Ravens offensive line was one of the top units in 09, I don't know what line you where watching. They where close to winning that Madden award too if I can recall. Michael Oher was a rookie, but I don't see this as a valid argument, because that was clearly his best year in the league, and he was one the top right tackles that year. Chester was also a pretty solid player at guard that year. Btw Marshall Yanda was actually a really good right tackle in 2010, so again I don't know what you where watching.