jaareshiah

At Revelation 1:6, it says that "he (Jesus Christ) made us to be a kingdom, priests to his God and Father—yes, to him ("him", Greek autos, meaning "the reflexive pronoun self " or pointing toward oneself ) be the glory and the might forever. Amen." This Greek word is also used in the same Scripture, with relation to "God and Father" that is rendered as "his" in the reflexive sense, so that it properly reads "his God and Father". This Greek word is used thousands of times in the Christian Greek Scriptures (commonly called the New Testament), as at Matthew 2:2, 4:3, 4:6, 8, 9, 10.

Sharing the Godhead, it is virtually irrelevant whether the "HIM" is Jesus or His Father. "For God was pleased to have all his fullness dwell in him, and through him to reconcile to himself all things" All of God dwelt in the physical body of Christ.Is Christs physical body still present? Yes. After his death he showed Thomas the scars from the nails, and about 25 years after his resurrection, Paul said, "there is one God and one mediator between God and man, the man Jesus Christ."(This verse is also used to prove Jesus was not 1/2 man and 1/2 God but that he was 100% God and 100% man.)God the Father gives Jesus everything.

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"Why do so many people think that the Bible is only inspired at certain points - and that THEY are inspired to pick out which points?"

jaareshiah

The problem with "sharing the Godhead" is that no such thing exists. The trinity doctrine teaches that Jesus is God, but the Bible teaches that Jesus is "the only-begotten Son of God" (John 3:16), not God nor "God the Son". The word "Godhead" is what the King James Bible has rendered from the Greek words theion at Acts 17:29, theiotes at Romans 1:20 and theotetos at Colossians 2:9.

The Greek word theion (G2304) is properly rendered as "divine" , while theiotes (G2305) is properly rendered as "divinity, divine nature" and theotetos (G2320) as "deity, divinity".(Thayer's Greek-English Lexicon of the New Testament; Strong's Exhaustive Concordance of the Bible)

Hence, at Revelation 1:6, the statement is true that says of Jesus, concerning those chosen by his Father, Jehovah God for the "heavenly calling", that "he made us to be a kingdom, priests to his God and Father—yes, to him be the glory and the might forever." Jesus thus has a "God and Father", for the apostle Paul wrote to the Ephesian congregation: "I continue mentioning you in my prayers, that the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory, may give you a spirit of wisdom and of revelation in the accurate knowledge of him."(Eph 1:16, 17)

And Jesus, through the Revelation given to John in about 96 C.E., said to the Laodicean congregation: "And to the angel of the congregation in La·o·di·ce´a write: These are the things that the Amen says, the faithful and true witness, the beginning of the creation by God."(Rev 3:14; 2:18)

jaareshiah

IN the beginning was the word and the word was with God and was God.Pretty clear unless you read the jehovah witness biased translation.

The New World Translation is accurate at John 1:1, reading: "In [the] beginning the Word was, and the Word was with God, and the Word was a god." This has been confirmed with a ancient manuscript from Egypt. The Coptic language was spoken in Egypt in the centuries immediately following Jesus' earthly ministry, and the Sahidic dialect was an early literary form of the language.

Regarding the earliest Coptic translations of the Bible, The Anchor Bible Dictionary says: "Since the [Septuagint] and the [Christian Greek Scriptures] were being translated into Coptic during the 3d century C.E., the Coptic version is based on [Greek manuscripts] which are significantly older than the vast majority of extant witnesses."

The Sahidic Coptic text is especially interesting for two reasons. First, as indicated above, it reflects an understanding of Scripture dating from before the fourth century, which was when the Trinity became official doctrine. Second, Coptic grammar is relatively close to English grammar in one important aspect.

The earliest translations of the Christian Greek Scriptures were into Syriac, Latin, and Coptic. Syriac and Latin, like the Greek of those days, do not have an indefinite article. Coptic, however, does. Moreover, scholar Thomas O. Lambdin, in his work Introduction to Sahidic Coptic, says: "The use of the Coptic articles, both definite and indefinite, corresponds closely to the use of the articles in English."

Hence, the Coptic translation supplies interesting evidence as to how John 1:1 would have been understood back then. What do we find? The Sahidic Coptic translation uses an indefinite article with the word "god" in the final part of John 1:1. Thus, when rendered into modern English, the translation reads:

In the beginning existed the Word and the Word existed with the God and a god was the Word

(SAHIDIC COPTIC TEXT; P. CHESTER BEATTY-813; WITH INTERLINEAR TRANSLATION, located at Dublin, Ireland) Evidently, those ancient translators realized that John's words recorded at John 1:1 did not mean that Jesus was to be identified as Almighty God. The Word was a god, not Almighty God.

jaareshiah,all bible scholars agree the New world translation is biased toward their own doctrine.IMO it's stupid to say that Jesus is A god But not THE God since the bible is very clear there is one God.Jesus did stuff only God can do:1. Forgive sins2. Accept worship from others3. Give sight to the blind4. Resurrect the dead5. Not correct THomas when he fell to his knees in front of Jesus and called out "My Lord and MY GOD.6 Told discip[les to pray to him and ask him(Jesus) for anything they wanted7. Was One with the Father8. He knew the future9. he knew what others were thinking10. Nature(ther wind and waves) obeyed him11. Walked on water and enabled Peter to also12. Jesus said that only jesus and the Father had life unto themself(life was not imparted to them)13. Was the imageof the invisible God and the pattern when God said, "Let us make man in our image"14. In Genesis it says Jacob wrestled with a man When Jacob told Joseph, Jacob said it was God almighty.15. Jesus said that if you had seen him, you had seen the (invisible) Father.and others I can't think of off the top of my head.Concerning mighty and almighty - that's straight out of the JW handbook on what to say when going door to door since the Godhood of Jesus is the first thing to come up.

Isaiah 9:6 - "For unto us a child is born, a son is given, and the government shall be on his shoulders and he will be called wonderful, counselor, mighty, God, everlasting, Father, the prince of peace.Jesus and the Father are both God. Jesus is willingly subordinate to the Father though they never disagree on anything anyway.My earthly Father and I are both men but I am willingly subordinate to my Father. It doesn't mean we are not equal or that we both aren't men.

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"Why do so many people think that the Bible is only inspired at certain points - and that THEY are inspired to pick out which points?"

jaareshiah

jaareshiah,all bible scholars agree the New world translation is biased toward their own doctrine.IMO it's stupid to say that Jesus is A god But not THE God since the bible is very clear there is one God.Jesus did stuff only God can do:1. Forgive sins2. Accept worship from others3. Give sight to the blind4. Resurrect the dead5. Not correct THomas when he fell to his knees in front of Jesus and called out "My Lord and MY GOD.6 Told discip[les to pray to him and ask him(Jesus) for anything they wanted7. Was One with the Father8. He knew the future9. he knew what others were thinking10. Nature(ther wind and waves) obeyed him11. Walked on water and enabled Peter to also12. Jesus said that only jesus and the Father had life unto themself(life was not imparted to them)13. Was the imageof the invisible God and the pattern when God said, "Let us make man in our image"14. In Genesis it says Jacob wrestled with a man When Jacob told Joseph, Jacob said it was God almighty.15. Jesus said that if you had seen him, you had seen the (invisible) Father.and others I can't think of off the top of my head.Concerning mighty and almighty - that's straight out of the JW handbook on what to say when going door to door since the Godhood of Jesus is the first thing to come up.

Isaiah 9:6 - "For unto us a child is born, a son is given, and the government shall be on his shoulders and he will be called wonderful, counselor, mighty, God, everlasting, Father, the prince of peace.Jesus and the Father are both God. Jesus is willingly subordinate to the Father though they never disagree on anything anyway.My earthly Father and I are both men but I am willingly subordinate to my Father. It doesn't mean we are not equal or that we both aren't men.

If it is "stupid to say that Jesus is A god", then why did those who wrote down this Scripture in Sahidic Coptic some 1700 years ago then translate it as "a god ", even possibly before the Codex Vaticanus and Siniaticus of the 4th century C.E. ? The translators from Greek to Sahidic Coptic were well aware of what John wrote and meant and accordingly translated John 1:1 as "a god" instead of "God".

It has since been translated as "God" due to the 4th century acceptance of the trinity. Prior to this, the trinity doctrine did not exist. So, there has since been a forcing of "a square pag in around hole" because the trinity doctrine was now accepted, from the end of the 4th century onward, by Catholicism, with the Creed of Athanasius "unknown to the Eastern Church until the 12th century."(The New Encyclopedia Britannica)

Most never give consideration to the fact that John used the definite article "the" (Greek ho) before the 1st and 3rd times with the Greek word theos (making it properly read "the God") at John 1:1, 2, but did not with the 2nd use of theos, thus making the word "god" here indefinite or "a god".

To read otherwise, shows a lack of serious Bible study, but rather a bias toward the trinity. For example, at Acts 12:22, the King James Bible renders the Greek word theos without the definite article as "a god" as well as at Acts 28:6.

The New World Translation has thus followed this proper rendering of "a god", rather than allowing the religious traditions of the churches to dictate what John wrote.

Jaareshiah,I guess since you are a Jehovah Witness you haven't been told about the new world translation except from their side of it.What leading Greek scholars say about the NWT:

Dr. Bruce M. Metzger, professor of New Testament at Princeton University, calls the NWT "a frightful mistranslation," "Erroneous" and "pernicious" "reprehensible" "If the Jehovah's Witnesses take this translation seriously, they are polytheists." (Professor of New Testament Language and Literature)

Dr. William Barclay, a leading Greek scholar, said "it is abundantly clear that a sect which can translate the New Testament like that is intellectually dishonest."

British scholar H.H. Rowley stated, "From beginning to end this volume is a shining example of how the Bible should not be translated."

"Well, as a backdrop, I was disturbed because they (Watchtower) had misquoted me in support of their translation." (These words were excerpted from the tape, "Martin and Julius Mantey on The New World Translation", Mantey is quoted on pages 1158-1159 of the Kingdom interlinear Translation)

Dr. Julius Mantey , author of A Manual Grammar of the Greek New Testament, calls the NWT "a shocking mistranslation." "Obsolete and incorrect." "It is neither scholarly nor reasonable to translate John 1:1 'The Word was a god.'"

"I have never read any New Testament so badly translated as The Kingdom Interlinear Translation of The Greek Scriptures.... it is a distortion of the New Testament. The translators used what J.B. Rotherham had translated in 1893, in modern speech, and changed the readings in scores of passages to state what Jehovah's Witnesses believe and teach. That is a distortion not a translation." (Julius Mantey , Depth Exploration in The New Testament (N.Y.: Vantage Pres, 1980), pp.136-137)

the translators of the NWT are "diabolical deceivers." (Julius Mantey in discussion with Walter Martin

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"Why do so many people think that the Bible is only inspired at certain points - and that THEY are inspired to pick out which points?"

Now about John 1:1 specifically:The Society used a translation by a SPIRIT MEDIUM, Johannes Greber, to support their rendering of John 1:1 with full knowledge that his sources were DEMONIC. Greber was exposed in the Feb. 15/56 Watchtower. However in 1961 they released a translation based on his occult one, then denied they knew what they were doing on page 31 of the Apr. 1, 1983 Watchtower!and...

The NWT translates Jn 1:1 as "... and the Word was WITH God, and the Word was a god". How can the Word (Jesus) be "a god" if God says in Deut 32:39, "See now that I-I am he, and there are NO gods together WITH me ..."? Jn 1:3 says that Jesus created "all things", but in Isa 44:24, God says that he "by myself" created the heavens and the earth and asks the question "Who was with me?" when the heavens and the earth were created. How can this be since if Jesus was created by God, then he would have been with God when everything else was created?

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"Why do so many people think that the Bible is only inspired at certain points - and that THEY are inspired to pick out which points?"

Now about the New World mistranslation generally referring to Christ and God:

In the NWT, every time the Greek word "proskuneo" is used in reference to God, it is translated as "worship" (Rev 5:14, 7:11, 11:16, 19:4, Jn 4:20, etc.). Every time "proskuneo" is used in reference to Jesus, it is translated as "obeisance" (Mt 14:33, 28:9, 28:17, Lk 24:52, Heb 1:6, etc.), even though it is the same word in the Greek (see Gr-Engl Interlinear). Especially compare the Greek word "prosekunhsan" used with reference to God in Rev 5:14, 7:11, 11:16, and 19:4 and used with reference to Christ in Mt 14:33, 28:9, and 28:17. What is the reason for this inconsistency? If the NWT was consistent in translating "proskuneo" as "worship", how would the verses above referring to Christ read?

The NWT translates the Greek word "kyrios" as "Jehovah" more than 25 times in the New Testament (Mt 3:3, Lk 2:9, Jn 1:23, Acts 21:14, Rom 12:19, Col 1:10, 1Thess 5:2, 1Pet 1:25, Rev 4:8, etc.). Why is the word "Jehovah" translated when it does not appear in the Greek text? Why is the NWT not consistent in translating kyrios (kurion) as "Jehovah" in Rom 10:9, 1Cor 12:3, Phil 2:11, 2Thess 2:1, and Rev 22:21 (see Gr-Engl Interlinear)?

The NWT translates the Greek words "ego eimi" as "I am" every time it appears (Jn 6:34, 6:41, 8:24, 13:19, 15:5, etc.), except in Jn 8:58 where it is translated as "I have been". What is the reason for the inconsistency in this translation? If "ego eimi" was translated in Jn 8:58 the same way it is translated in every other verse in which it appears, how would Jn 8:58 read?

In Rev 22:12-13, Jesus Christ, the one who is "coming quickly", says of himself, " I am the Alpha and the Omega, the first and the last, the beginning and the end". In Rev 1:17-18, Jesus, the one who "became dead, but, look! I am living forever and ever", refers to himself as the first and the last. Rev 21:6, in speaking of God, says, "...I am the Alpha and the Omega, the beginning and the end ...". God is also referred to as the "first" and the "last" in Isa 44:6 and Isa 48:12. How can this be since by definition of these words there can only be one first and one last?

Jn 1:3 says that Jesus created "all things", but in Isa 44:24, God says that he "by myself" created the heavens and the earth and asks the question "Who was with me?" when the heavens and the earth were created. How can this be since if Jesus was created by God, then he would have been with God when everything else was created? Col 1:16, in talking about Jesus, says that "... All [other] things have been created through him and FOR HIM". If Jesus was Michael the Archangel at the time of creation, would an angel have created all things for himself? Isa 43:7 says God created "everyone ... for my OWN glory..."

Jn 1:3 says that Jesus created "all things", but in Isa 44:24, God says that he "by myself" created the heavens and the earth and asks the question "Who was with me?" when the heavens and the earth were created. How can this be since if Jesus was created by God, then he would have been with God when everything else was created?

In Jn 20:28, Thomas refers to Jesus in Greek as "Ho kyrios moy kai ho theos moy". This translates literally as "the Lord of me and THE God of me". Why does Jesus, in Jn 20:29, affirm Thomas for having come to this realization? If Jesus really wasn't the Lord and THE God of Thomas, why didn't Jesus correct him for making either a false assumption or a blasphemous statement?

In Phil 2:9, the NWT inserts the word "other", even though it doesn't appear in the original Greek (see Gr-Engl Interlinear). What is the reason for inserting this word? Is the word "Jehovah" a name? See Ex 6:3, Ps 83:18, and Isa 42:8. How would the verse read if the word "other" had not been inserted? What does scripture say about adding words to the Bible? See Prov 30:5-6.In Col 1:15-17, the NWT inserts the word "other" 4 times even though it is not in the original Greek (see Gr-Engl interlinear). Why is the word "other" inserted? How would these verses read if the word "other" had not been inserted?In 2Pet 1:1, the NWT inserts the word "the". Why is it inserted? How would the verse read if the word "the" was not inserted? What does scripture say about adding words to the Bible? (See Prov 30:5-6).In Mt 1:23, who is Matthew referring to here that has been given the name which means "With Us Is God"?

In Mt 28:19, Jesus tells his disciples to baptize "people of all the nations ...in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the holy spirit". Why would the disciples be instructed to baptize in the name of anybody or anything who was not God? Do Jehovah's Witnesses follow the command of Jesus and baptize "in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the holy spirit"?

Who or what does the spirit of Christ (Phil 1:19, Gal 4:6, Rom 8:9) refer to? In Gal 4:6, how is it possible that the spirit of Christ could come into our hearts? How is it possible that the spirit of CHRIST could reside in someone? If what the Watchtower Society teaches is true, how could Paul make this statement if Christ was a spirit person residing in heaven?

In Jn 8:56, Jesus says, "Abraham your father rejoiced greatly in the prospect of seeing my day, and he saw it and rejoiced". Since Abraham died hundreds of years before Jesus said this, how could Jesus say that Abraham "saw it and rejoiced", if there is no conscious awareness after death?

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"Why do so many people think that the Bible is only inspired at certain points - and that THEY are inspired to pick out which points?"

I've been brought to a pretty simplistic view of it, that works best for me. I don't call myself Trinitarian or any label on it.

My son has my last name. He has my blood, dna, genes. He is of the same substance as me. He is a Berry. We're both Berrys. But I'm the dad, he's the son. Yet being earthly, we don't always work as one.

I see God and His Son the same way, in that they are of the same Substance - Divine, God. Yet one is the Father, the other is the Son. Jesus the Son is subject to YHWH the Father - yet being heavenly, they always work as One ("I and my Father are one").

There is a Holy/Pure Spirit of God, that He sends forth to represent Him - of which we need to be filled to overflowing.

You're right Jabcat. An interesting thing is that Jesus was subject to heavenly Father.IMO he was also subject to his earthly father, Joseph (When there was no conflict)(Honor your Father and Mother.) Even though Jesus did not inherit the sinful blood of Joseph, I believe he subjected himself to Joseph for the sake of Mary and His true Father.

Any brothers and sisters? How often do you think the earthly brothers and sisters of Jesus had to hear, "What's wrong with you? Why can't you be more like Jesus?" ...I mean it does say some of his brothers resented him.

« Last Edit: October 30, 2012, 02:07:10 AM by ded2daworld »

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"Why do so many people think that the Bible is only inspired at certain points - and that THEY are inspired to pick out which points?"

Gen 1:3 And God said, Joh 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. Mat 22:32 I am the God of Abraham,Joh_8:58 Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I am. Rev_1:8 I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the ending, Rev_21:6 And he said unto me, It is done. I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end. Whittle, whittle.

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Mic 7:8 Thou dost not rejoice over me, O mine enemy, When I have fallen, I have risen, When I sit in darkness Jehovah is a light to me.

jaareshiah

The NWT translates the Greek words "ego eimi" as "I am" every time it appears (Jn 6:34, 6:41, 8:24, 13:19, 15:5, etc.), except in Jn 8:58 where it is translated as "I have been". What is the reason for the inconsistency in this translation? If "ego eimi" was translated in Jn 8:58 the same way it is translated in every other verse in which it appears, how would Jn 8:58 read?

What is really the proper rendering of John 8:58, with several Bibles capitolizing "I AM" so as to convey a title ? Over a thousand years before the King James Bible or a myriad of other Bibles came onto the scene, ancient Bible manuscripts had translated this verse as:

(1) "before Abraham was, I have been" (Fourth/Fifth century -Syriac-Edition:A Translation of the Four Gospels from the Syriac of the Sinaitic Palimpsest, by Agnes Smith Lewis, London, 1894),

(4) "before Abraham came to be, I was" (Fifth century, Georgian-Edition:"The Old Georgian Version of the Gospel of John," by Robert P. Blake and Maurice Brière, published in Patrologia Orientalis, Vol. XXVI, fascicle 4, Paris, 1950),

Jesus was replying as to how old he was, just as any reasonable person would if asked his age, that he existed before Abraham. This Scripture also cannot be linked to Exodus 3:14, as rendered incorrectly by the King James Bible. Thus, William's New Testament reads: "Then Jesus said to them, "I most solemnly say to you, I existed before Abraham was born".

In addition, at John 9:9, the King James Bible adds the word "he" to the words "I am" (Greek ego eimi) concerning the man born blind. Why did the King James Bible not add "he" as well to Jesus words at John 8:58 of ego eimi ?

Jaareshiah,Again, you didn't answer the question. You brought up some obscure translations that perhaps translated it the way the JW's did. This does not mean it was correct. I agree with you in that the King James translation was incorrect in adding (he)The point is "ego eimi" is and alsways should be translated "I am"The fact that the Jews picked up stones to stone him to death. Blasphemy was a crime punishable by stoning and by Jesus claiming I AM it was the same as making himself equal with God.New World translation reads:

John 10:32-33 Jesus replied to them: "I displayed to YOU many fine works from the Father. For which of those works are YOU stoning me?" 33 The Jews answered him: "We are stoning you, not for a fine work, but for blasphemy,even because you, although being a man, make yourself a god."This is of course a mistranslation because the jews were monotheistic and would never have said "a god" (another reason why John, a Jew, would never have written "and the Word was "a God" in John 1:1 This is Young's literal translation:John 10:32Jesus answered them, `Many good works did I shew you from my Father; because of which work of them do ye stone me?'10:33The Jews answered him, saying, `For a good work we do not stone thee, but for evil speaking, and because thou, being a man, dost make thyself God.'

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"Why do so many people think that the Bible is only inspired at certain points - and that THEY are inspired to pick out which points?"

I've been brought to a pretty simplistic view of it, that works best for me. I don't call myself Trinitarian or any label on it.

My son has my last name. He has my blood, dna, genes. He is of the same substance as me. He is a Berry. We're both Berrys. But I'm the dad, he's the son. Yet being earthly, we don't always work as one.

I see God and His Son the same way, in that they are of the same Substance - Divine, God. Yet one is the Father, the other is the Son. Jesus the Son is subject to YHWH the Father - yet being heavenly, they always work as One ("I and my Father are one").

There is a Holy/Pure Spirit of God, that He sends forth to represent Him - of which we need to be filled to overflowing.

My . Blessings.

I agree. Jesus said "the Father is greater than I".

Paul said in (1Cor.11:3) But I would have you know, that the head of every man is Christ; and the head of the woman is the man; and THE HEAD OF CHRIST IS GOD.

So here paul is showing the rank or authority from the top down. The Father is at the top, then Christ, man, then woman. Here is one proof that the Holy Spirit is not a person because it is not in the above list.

Paul said in (1Cor.11:3) But I would have you know, that the head of every man is Christ; and the head of the woman is the man; and THE HEAD OF CHRIST IS GOD.

So here paul is showing the rank or authority from the top down. The Father is at the top, then Christ, man, then woman. Here is one proof that the Holy Spirit is not a person because it is not in the above list.

CHB

No the head of Christ is GOD.

Jesus said blasphemy against the Son is forgivable in this age, but blasphemy against the holy spirit (honour mother and Father) shall not be forgiven in this age and the age to come.

Paul said in (1Cor.11:3) But I would have you know, that the head of every man is Christ; and the head of the woman is the man; and THE HEAD OF CHRIST IS GOD.

So here paul is showing the rank or authority from the top down. The Father is at the top, then Christ, man, then woman. Here is one proof that the Holy Spirit is not a person because it is not in the above list.

CHB

No the head of Christ is GOD.

Jesus said blasphemy against the Son is forgivable in this age, but blasphemy against the holy spirit (honour mother and Father) shall not be forgiven in this age and the age to come.

God is a title of deity and thus........ "So here paul is showing the rank or authority from the top down. The Father is at the top, then Christ, man, then woman. Here is one proof that the Holy Spirit is not a person because it is not in the above list." (CHB)

I like that

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Mic 7:8 Thou dost not rejoice over me, O mine enemy, When I have fallen, I have risen, When I sit in darkness Jehovah is a light to me.

Paul said in (1Cor.11:3) But I would have you know, that the head of every man is Christ; and the head of the woman is the man; and THE HEAD OF CHRIST IS GOD.

So here paul is showing the rank or authority from the top down. The Father is at the top, then Christ, man, then woman. Here is one proof that the Holy Spirit is not a person because it is not in the above list.

CHB

No the head of Christ is GOD.

Jesus said blasphemy against the Son is forgivable in this age, but blasphemy against the holy spirit (honour mother and Father) shall not be forgiven in this age and the age to come.

3 Then Peter said, "Ananias, how is it that Satan has so filled your heart that you have lied to the Holy Spirit and have kept for yourself some of the money you received for the land? 4 Didn't it belong to you before it was sold? And after it was sold, wasn't the money at your disposal? What made you think of doing such a thing? You have not lied just to human beings but to God."

This is pretty conclusive not even counting all the old testament verses that say God is Holy and God is Spirit, which makes God a Holy Spirit.

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"Why do so many people think that the Bible is only inspired at certain points - and that THEY are inspired to pick out which points?"