I love this subject title!
Anyway, I don't quite understand the mechanism of government loans to
countries, such as Poland. Aren't all banks in the US private? After
all, even Uncle Sam borrows from the private sphere, mainly by selling
them US government obligations. Weren't those "government loans" to
Poland really private bank loans GUARANTEED by the government?
Joe

I am crossposting the following WSJ article from HIX FORUM list because it's
highly relevant to Hungary and at the same time is also unusual from the
American media.
Anne Applebaum: The Real Danger in Eastern Europe.
(From The Wall Street Journal, November, 28, p. A 18)
In the fall of 1993 and spring of 1994 Western politicians and
journalists were cought off-guard by a series of political changes in
Central Europe. In Poland, parties led by former communists and their
rural allies won a majority of parliamentary seats; in Hungary, the former
Communist Party won absolute parliementary power; in Slovakia, former
communists calling themselves Social Democrats replaced former communists
calling themselves Nationalists.
If the changes caused surprise in the West, they were greeted with
shock by former dissidents and anticommunist intellectuals in Central
Europe. In both West and East, observers had assumed that the former
communist parties were throughly demoralized and defeated and would
remain nothing more than a marginal political force. Most believed that
the potential for trouble in Central Europe lay elsewere - in the
resurgence of 1930s style nationalist parties.
A BIG MISTAKE
Western,Particularly American, diplomats in Central Europe went out
of their way to encourage politicians whom they percieved as
antinationalist and to discourage "decommunization" programs, which were
often favored by politicians whom they percieved as nationalist. This was
the case across the former Soviet block, even thoug decommunization
projects usually did little more than forbid former high-ranking Communist
Party officials from holding office under the new regime.
It is now clear that the intense Western fear of nationalism in
Central Europe misidentified the problem and that the attempt to twart the
progress of so-called nationalist parties was a mistake.
Nowhere in the region has there been a resurgence of 1930s style
nationalism. (Although tragic and shocking, the former Yugoslavia has
proved the exception, not the norm. And the causes of the war there are
unique, deriving from the region's special history, both before and after
the Second World War.) In Central Europe the greatest danger to democracy
and stability does not - and never did - come from new or the old
nationalist right.
Even places such as Slovakia, where nationalism has taken on a biting
tone, the government is led not by heirs of prewar nationalists, but by
former communists who manipulate nationalism to keep themselves in power.
The significance of the Slovak exemple can not be underestimated. Slobodan
Milosevic used his base in the Communist Party to follow a similar path to
power in Serbia, and Vladimir Zhirinovsky, or any other future nationalist,
would almost certainly follow the same pattern in Russia.
Today, across central Europe, former communist parties hold political
and economic monopolies that will take years to loosen,; until they do,
politics will not become "normal" in any Western sense in Central Europe or
elsewhere in the former Warsaw Pact. At first glance, this may not seem
obvious. There is no ideological threat to democracy in Central Europe;
the ideals of Marxism are dead, and the return of totalitarianism is not a
threat. The question now is what kind of capitalism and democracy Central
Europe will have.
It is not the specter of the 1930s that haunts Central Europe, but
the old Italian model - corrupt regimes led by former communist parties
that rely on a semi-maffia business class composed mostly of former
communists. The return of former communist parties to power reflects the
rise of the new economic elite. Links between the ex-nomenclatura
capitalists and ex-communists politicians remain intact, creating a ruling
class that holds power in several spheres, with little room for competition
in political and economic debates.
A Polish economist who traced the careers of several hundred top
nomenclatura from 1988 to 1993 found that over half turned up as top
executives in the private sector. Those numbers were even higher in Hungary
and higher still in Russia. With better connections, more money, and more
property to start with, former communists have been indisputably been the
largest beneficiaries of the past four years of economic reforms.
Even when former communists have a genuine interest in economic
reform, they can have a stultifying effect on politics. In Hungary, power
is now held almost exclusively by a small elite of former communists and
the center-left ex-dissidents - not necessarily an evil elite, but a
claustrophobic one nevertheless. In Poland, there is evidence of ruling
parties demanding Italian-style kickbacks from their friends in the
business sector.
The rule of small, secretive elites has a range of negative economic
effects. If not broken up by politicians, former secret police networks
convert easily into semi-corrupt business structures; ex-communist
bankers lend readily to ex-communist factory owners, with little regard
for commercial considerations. At their worst, as in Serbia or Romania,
former communist parties can use their excellent organizational bases to
suppress the growth of other parties.
For that reason, it is not the center-left that needs Western
diplomatic and intellectual encouragement in Central Europe, but the
center-right. Ideological considerations aside, a strong center-right or
conservative political alternative, which is notably absent in Poland,
Slovakia and Ukraine, would provide political competition for the former
communist elite and inject an element of competition into the economic
system. A strong center-right prime minister, Vaclav Claus, has enabled
the Czech Republic to privatize further and faster than any other country
in the region.
Western diplomats should also be interested in the Center European
right and in healthy nationalist movements elsewhere in Eastern Europe.
Not all "nationalist" or even "patriotic" emotion is necessarily a symptom
of antidemocratic tendencies. One of the few emotions that can keep a
Slovak scientist in Slovakia, or a talented Ukrainian entrepreneur in
Ukraine, is patriotism.
Across the former communist block, the growth of nationalist
movements has led to a revival of interest in history and national culture.
While this change can lead, as in the former Yugoslavia, to territorial
disputes and vicious intolerance, it can also lead national elites into
constructive discussion of once-taboo issues. The best example is
anti-semitism in Poland. Since the late 1980s, public debate about the
history of the Polish Jews has grown beyond measure. The tone of the
discussion may not always appeal to outsiders, and the debate itself can be
mistaken for anti-semitism, but the fact that it is happening means that a
younger generation of Poles will understand the issues better than their
elders.
RATIONAL PATRIOTISM
Democracy itself may in the end depend upon the patriotic spirit in
an other way. Torqueville once defined rational patriotism as a moment "a
man understand the influence that his country's well-being has on his own."
When the nation states of Central Europe were political subordinates of
Moscow, this sense of connection to and interst in the fate of the
nation-state was not possible. Now rational patriotism can create the
public spirit that, together with the respect of the rule of law, is as
important to developed democracy as peaceful borders or parliementary
elections. Those in Central Europe who attempt to revive such emotions
after a long spell of suppression are to be recommended, not condemned.
They deserve Western support, not scorn.
--------------
Joe Pannon
P.S. It's my understanding that a more detailed version of this article is
in this month's issue of Foreign Affairs. -- JP

Eva Balogh writes
> it is very> possible that the American government received quite a bit of money through> the so-called sin tax.
With respect, this is a myth. Smoking costs the federal government, by
way of health care costs, far more than cigarette taxes bring in.
--Greg

> Greg asked:>> 'Why does not Hungary TRY debt-reduction "Poland style"?'
Just for the record, I don't think it was this Greg, but I
won't stand on ceremony.
> I've never heard that a private Bank would voluntarily 'forget' about> payback on a privately placed security. Why would they do it ?
I have; and because half a loaf is better than none.
> They have shareholders to answer, and why would they do it for Hungary?
That is the question.
> The problem with private debt is, that Hungary needs short-term credit
That seems reasonable to me.
George Antony, please weigh in. :-)
--Greg

I can't comment as I've never even heard of such an
American left. All I know is, that the conservatives'
favourit democratic left wants to do bxxall different from them,
like your beautiful Blair. That's why you happily tolerate
them, no threat of change in your cosy setup, where you are
doing very well ('cause God loves you and you are clever)
and sod everyone else on Earth. For your God's sake, you cannot
leave it to the chaos of the market, you end up with wars
and the ultimate Big Bang! And in this Marx is as right as ever.
Your sister on Earth. >> --You miss the point, Red Eva. Democracies need a healthy Left.> What we have got here is a bunch of intellectuals who talk to each> other in their own language about a vision of society that most> Social Democrats, and even the Labour Party, have long since> discarded as unworkable and unappealing to working people. I> doubt if many of the American left ever plowed a field, worked> in a factory, or tuned an engine. Their doctrine is an idealistic> blend of Classical Marxism and 1960s rhetoric. It is old-fashioned.> It is sterile. It has no reference to poor people except as they> can be used as pawns in a power game. Our Left has no program> other than anti-capitalism, anti-Amerikanism (they spell it with> a K), and anti-white, male, heterosexual, religious, etc.> rhetoric. They do not seek an inclusive society, but merely> are anti. They are like the dog chasing the VW bug. They wouldn't> know what to do with it if they caught it.>> Your brother in Christ,>> Charles

I think it is irrelevant that some old secret service documents
supposedely have chapters on hate. That was the post I commented
on. Also the tone to the Romanian list.
>>> >>> >> Chapter IX of the book has the subtitle "Hatred for Hungarians".> >>> Eva, how do the revelations of the activities (esp. anti-Hungarian> activities) of the Romanian intelligence service incite racial hatred? I> believe it would be naive for anyone to believe that such activities do not> take place. Would it be better if we didn't discuss these issues as they> may offend the Romanians or incite racial hatred?>

As probabilities go, security services' honesty is near the bottom of
my list. (0.01?) I'd rather be correct (0.91?), than wise.
>> Eve! Of course, there is a chance, that the statment is unfounded.> There is also a chance that I will win on the lottery. We are talking> about reasonableness, and belief. If you doubt every statment, in this> world, because they can be false, what is the reason to read or listen.> Though your statement is certainly correct, I don't beleive it was> wise, under the circumstances.>> With respect Sandor.

I would venture, that the percentage of those earning 100 times
more than a nurse, who invented anything vaguely useful is
under 1. (see published lists of top earners for a starter).
As far as I know, most companies appropriate the inventions
of employees anyway. This time I am definitely not the naive one!
>> Eva Durant writes:>> > How can anyone "deserve" 100 times more than a qualified nurse?>> "Perhaps" because she invents something that saves 100 more lives> than any nurse can?>> --Greg

>> Oh, pish. We are quite tolerant of every kind of crank and kook> here. Surely you've noted that in your own experience with Americans.>> --Greg
Exactly. Everything alternative is crank and kook automatically,
without a serious consideration. The chinese had similar attitudes
a bit while back...

I wasn't aware I was disagreeing in this instance... must be
instinctive... Just because you paranoid, doesn't mean that I am
not after you... (I didn't know the Party was checking ones' ebado
payments...)
Eva >> Eva Durant makes a sport out of disagreeing with everything which could be> possibly construed as negative when it comes to the "those bad old days of> totalitarian rules." Of course, the "ebado1" was paid, and paid promptly, and> by everybody in those days! But you know, Eva, what I wrote about the tax on> dogs is not an Eva Balogh special. I read it in the HVG, that terrible> anti-communist rag! And since nobody is really interested in the details of> tax on dogs, here it is in the original: "A fovarosi onkormanyzat munkatarsa,> Orban Laszlo peldaul az ebado visszallitasanak a hive, mert ebbol--mint> mondja--utcatisztito gepeket lehetne beszerezni, s hatekony ellenorzo> apparatust lehetne kiepiteni. Ezt a javaslatot tobb szakerto, kozegeszsegugyi> okokra hivatkozva, tulsagosan kockazatosnak tartja. Szerintuk az ebado> kivetese eseten megsokszorozodna a be nem oltott s ezert veszettsegnek> kitett, illegalisan tartott ebek szama." I know the new Socialist Man was far> superior to ordinary mortals elsewhere. For example, in the United States a> lot of dogs are not inocculated and not because of "ebado1." Laziness and the> $30.00 one has to pay to the vet are the real cause. Eva Balogh

On Thu, 8 Dec 1994 19:23:23 -0600 > said:
>>>Oh yeah, Charles! Thanks for the info on definitions! Have you ever heard>of connotation? How about "operationally defined?" Dictionary definitions>are a good starting point, but hardly sufficient to understanding the world>around you.>
--Of course I have. And I thought that the context was sufficient to
indicate that vocal just meant "noisy" but not persuasive. And when
doing research, I expect to have to provide an operational definition
of any key term. But in everyday communication, one assumes the
commonly accepted definition, right? If we accept the posture of
Humpty Dumpty that "words mean what I say they mean, it's just a
question of who is to be master," then communication is difficult.
Charles
>

On Fri, 9 Dec 1994 10:33:25 +0000 Eva Durant said:
>If this is a new definition as to who is Hungarian, I am>definitely not! >>>>> Charles writes:>>>> > "Hungarians always pay their debts....">>
--Oh, come now, Eva! Fair play! That was a quote from a Hungarian
middle manager. And that was his explanation for why he didn't
think that the "Polish solution" was on in Hungary. It wasn't
advertised as a definition of who is Hungarian.
Charles

So you definitely need those silly smileys 8-(
Eva D.
>> >If this is a new definition as to who is Hungarian, I am> >definitely not! > >> >>> >> Charles writes:> >>> >> > "Hungarians always pay their debts...."> >>> --Oh, come now, Eva! Fair play! That was a quote from a Hungarian> middle manager. And that was his explanation for why he didn't> think that the "Polish solution" was on in Hungary. It wasn't> advertised as a definition of who is Hungarian.>> Charles

Eva Durant writes:
> Exactly. Everything alternative is crank and kook automatically,> without a serious consideration. The chinese had similar attitudes> a bit while back...
In the first place, if you think there is an American intellectual
alive who hasn't heard your particular brand of dogmatism, you are
sorely mistaken; but go ahead, repeating it one more time won't
ad to the nauseum.
Further, if you think innovation and experimentation is not an
American characteristic, you are mistaken again.
Thirdly, would you believe that the Chinese economy long ago began
to model itself on market principles?
--Greg

Not that I disagree or anything, but I'd like to know, why is it unrealistic,
ridiculous,
and unfair to group countries like Hungary in with Serbia, Russia, etc., as
Thomas Breed
stated?
>told everyone to thank God that there hasn't been any more ethnic violence>in Eastern Europe, and pray that in the next year there will not be.>It's unrealistic, ridiculous, and unfair to group countries like Hungary in>with Serbia, Russia, etc., but that's exactly what Americans are doing.>Considering the populist result of the recent Congress election, I think> Thomas Breed
Paul

Eva B. wrote:
>David from the Netherlands thinks that I talk absolute nonsense when I>compare the American antismoking campaign to any other kind of, let's face>it, "brainwashing." How successful such a brainwashing is, and how dangerous>it can be if applied to the wrong cause, can be demonstrated by the federal>and local governments' effort at changing people's attitude toward smoking. I
Well, you can call the same thing brainwashing or education, depending on
your point of view. People who wnat to give a good connotation to an
issue would use the term 'education', and those who want to give a
neagative slant call it 'brainwashing', but you'd be talking about the
same thing. Were Northern politicians and bleeding hearts engaging in
brainwashing or education in the 1850-1860's in the US, when they agued
(argued) against slavery? The Southerns plantation owners (not all Southerns)
would have called it brainwashing, and did call that campaign by negative
labels. Only time and history - and probabaly the winner of the conflict - can
interpret the issue.
Paul

Date sent: 9-DEC-1994 13:03:15
>>>Not that I disagree or anything, but I'd like to know, why is it unrealistic,> ridiculous,>and unfair to group countries like Hungary in with Serbia, Russia, etc., as> Thomas Breed>stated?>>>told everyone to thank God that there hasn't been any more ethnic violence>>in Eastern Europe, and pray that in the next year there will not be.>>It's unrealistic, ridiculous, and unfair to group countries like Hungary in>>with Serbia, Russia, etc., but that's exactly what Americans are doing.>>Considering the populist result of the recent Congress election, I think>>>> Thomas Breed>>>>Paul
It's unrealistic and ridiculuos because Hungary's history and culture have
very little in common with either Russia or Serbia. The political
situation in all three countries are different enough to warrant individual
attention, though all might have begun with some form of socialist
dictatorship. A lack of understanding about history and current affairs
HAS lead to many Westerners grouping Hungary in with countries like Serbia
and Russia. This is unfair, since Serbia and Russia's actions help define
these ignormasus opinions of what Hungary is like. I could just as easily
turned it around and said that it is unfair for Serbia to be judged in
relation to Hungary. I picked Russia and Serbia, though, because they take
up a lion's share of the media's attention.
Thomas Breed
"Like Prometheus still chained to that rock
In the midst of a free world"

The digest is a service of HIX (the Hollosi Information eXchange) that takes
all the messages posted to HUNGARY, collects them in a single (large) mail
message which you get once a day. If you are unfamiliar with HIX, send a
message to and you'll find out about lot's of lists, looseley
analogous to usenet, but working by the same many inputs/one output per day
method. These are 95% written in Hungarian, but they cover a wide variety of
subjects, from politics (SZALON is a moderated, FORUM is an unmoderated
group) to practical matters (TIPP) and humor (MOKA). There are also groups
devoted to Radio Free Europe/Radio Liberty news about the region (these are
in English) and so forth. If America Online offers Usenet (if it doesn't,
you should bitterly complain to the management or just switch to a more
reasonable internet provider like Netcom) you can also read the
soc.culture.magyar group, where most HIX materials also appear. In
particular, HUNGARY gets reposted in the group bit.listserv.hungary. For
several other matters, take a look at Zoli Fekete's Hungarian Electronic
Resources FAQ, which should be available both in the soc.answers and
news.answers groups and through the Hungarian gopher at ELTE, or by anon ftp
from the usual archive sites like rtfm.mit.edu. If America Online doesn't
offer gopher or anonymous ftp services, again complain bitterly and/or move
to more reasonable sites.
Andras Kornai

Greetings,
I've read several recent posts about World Wide Web, Mosaic, and file
retrieval. The following information was borrowed from Network World
Magazine, Nov 28, 1994. I hope that it's of use to the readership who only
have access to E-mail.
Paul Ohegyi
> ==================================================================
How to Access Internet Services by E-mail
-----------------------------------------
If your only access to the Internet is via e-mail, you don't have to
miss out on all the fun! Maybe you've heard of FTP, Gopher, Archie,
Veronica, Finger, Whois, WAIS, World-Wide Web, and Usenet but thought
they were out of your reach because your online service does not provide
those tools. Not so! And even if you do have full Internet access,
using e-mail servers can save you time and money.
This special report will show you how to retrieve files from FTP sites,
explore the Internet via Gopher, search for information with Archie,
Veronica, or WAIS, tap into the World-Wide Web, and even access Usenet
newsgroups using E-MAIL AS YOUR ONLY TOOL.
If you can send a note to an Internet address, you're in the game! This
is great news for users of online services where there is partial or no
direct Internet access.
To access: Send an E-mail message to
As your message, type: GET INTERNET BY-EMAIL NETTRAIN F=MAIL

George (alias Gyorgy) Lazar exudes the exact same rigid
AND bankrupt policies that was characteristic of communist
Prime Ministers (by the name of Gyorgy Lazar, Sr.)
He just does not get it that debt-reconstruction must be
initiated by Hungary, not by some (nonexistent) "benevolent
foreign government and/or bank". Indeed, the "argument" that
Hungary is disadvantaged over Poland because her debts were
owned by select few government central banks with which it

In article >, Alexander Berendi
> writes:
>I hate to tell you that while I still remember (with some nostalgy) of these>recepies, I don't eat most of them anymore. I am into this low cholesterol>thing that promises for you to leave long enough to get Alzheimer's disease
[ Rest deleted. J. Pannon please take note.]
>Alex
And I drink to that! What a sober gourmand you are, Alex! I am also on
a low cholesterol diet: no egg yolk, no butter, and definitely NO LARD in
my diet. But I can make a fairly decent gulyas without lard, using canola
oil instead of lard.
Lard in the diet may be one of the culprits causing the low life expectancy
of Hungarians. And within Hungary, I bet they consume more lard in Kobanya
than on the Rozsadomb, hence the 6-year difference in the life expectancy of
the two districts. (Another factor could be the difference in the educational
attainment. Even in the US, university graduates tend to live longer than
high school graduates.)
In addition shunning lard, I also use lean beef and lean lamb, cutting away
fat & "mocsing" from the meat. The rest, the usual ingredients.
Sometimes I add a little red wine to the pot. Of course the alcohol
evaporates durint the cooking, so one must compensate for this undesirable
effect with uncooked wine consumed before and during the meal. The red wine
helps to combat the cholesterol.
To ensure a reliable supply of grass-fed beef, we became part time ranchers on
our one hektar minifarm. We did not breed beef, but purchased young
steers in May/June, and slaughtered them at the end of October. It took a
couple of years of experimentation to find the absolute minimum level of a
grain supplement (in adition to the pasture forage) needed to provide some
marbling, tenderness and the right taste in the meat (strictly grass-fed beef
can be tough.) We found that instead of 8 lbs. per day per steer (castrated
bull) for 90 days before slaughter - as recommended by the Agr,
Extension Agent - 2.5 lbs of grain for 45-60 days worked for us. Of
course, the steer was only 10 months old when slaughtered, baby beef, really.
Angus breed worked well for us. Rasing our own beef also provided us with
hormone-free meat.
When our son joined the 4 H club (agricultural youth club) he wanted to
raise lambs, so we switched from beef to sheep farming, this time as a
year-around operation, from birth to finish. We also experimented with the
lamb's diet in a similar manner. We used suffolk breed.
Taking care of a flock of sheep was too much for my wife and me after our son
left home. It is not so much of the few minutes of daily chores that made
this a difficult business, but the spring lambing season got to be too
much: Getting up several times a night for a period of 6 weeks to check on
the ewes and mnistering to the newly born lambs, then going to the office
in the morning... well, it was enough!
We are thinking of going back to MAY-October beef finishing season, buying
a 500 lbs. steer in May (or early June), and slaughther it when it reaches
about 750 lbs in the fall.
Tried beefalo (buffalo/beef hybrid) for stakes, gulyas, etc. It has less
cholesterol than beef. The spices in the gulyas help to disguise the
beefalo's unusual taste. Unfortunately, the quality of commercially
available beefalo fluctuates as there has not been enough time to evolve
meat grading standards for this product. I am not brave enough to raise
beefalo on our farm.
Well, farm chores provide me with some excercise, which is more effective
combating high cholesterol than diet alone.
Victor