hardinparamedic:Well, depending on how you use them, beanbags and rubber bullets can be pretty lethal too, Mister President.

As can Chinese made tear gas canisters. They have a tendency to explode and send metal shrapnel out.

Also subby, its pretty normal when dealing with protests and riots to announce the police are not carrying live ammunition, and are only armed with non-lethal rounds. It helps keep things from escalating from rocks and rubber bullets to real bullets.

ShawnDoc:hardinparamedic: Well, depending on how you use them, beanbags and rubber bullets can be pretty lethal too, Mister President.

As can Chinese made tear gas canisters. They have a tendency to explode and send metal shrapnel out.

Also subby, its pretty normal when dealing with protests and riots to announce the police are not carrying live ammunition, and are only armed with non-lethal rounds. It helps keep things from escalating from rocks and rubber bullets to real bullets.

Saying cops are only USING non-lethal armaments is one thing. Saying they are not CARRYING anything stronger, especially when there is unrest teetering on the fine line between protest and revolution? That's maybe not so smart

Magorn:Saying cops are only USING non-lethal armaments is one thing. Saying they are not CARRYING anything stronger, especially when there is unrest teetering on the fine line between protest and revolution? That's maybe not so smart

Anyone saying that they are using "non-lethal" armaments is being deliberately obfuscatory. Unless the only thing you are using is a sonic projection system, everything - from fire hoses, to bean bags, to even tasers and tear gas, is "less than lethal".

Magorn:Saying cops are only USING non-lethal armaments is one thing. Saying they are not CARRYING anything stronger, especially when there is unrest teetering on the fine line between protest and revolution? That's maybe not so smart

Its pretty normal from what I've seen in other parts of the world. Police lines get overrun, you don't want people getting their hands on live ammunition and guns. If it comes to the point where lethal rounds are required, new troops/police get sent in that are different from the normal crowd control and riot response police.

hardinparamedic:Magorn: Saying cops are only USING non-lethal armaments is one thing. Saying they are not CARRYING anything stronger, especially when there is unrest teetering on the fine line between protest and revolution? That's maybe not so smart

Anyone saying that they are using "non-lethal" armaments is being deliberately obfuscatory. Unless the only thing you are using is a sonic projection system, everything - from fire hoses, to bean bags, to even tasers and tear gas, is "less than lethal".

ShawnDoc:Magorn: Saying cops are only USING non-lethal armaments is one thing. Saying they are not CARRYING anything stronger, especially when there is unrest teetering on the fine line between protest and revolution? That's maybe not so smart

Its pretty normal from what I've seen in other parts of the world. Police lines get overrun, you don't want people getting their hands on live ammunition and guns. If it comes to the point where lethal rounds are required, new troops/police get sent in that are different from the normal crowd control and riot response police.

Given the way the Ukrainians and former Soviet republics tend to act with unruly protesters, they're not going to worry about arming the foot police with lethal rounds. They'll have BMPs and T-72s down the street with plenty of led in their machine guns.

hardinparamedic:ShawnDoc: Magorn: Saying cops are only USING non-lethal armaments is one thing. Saying they are not CARRYING anything stronger, especially when there is unrest teetering on the fine line between protest and revolution? That's maybe not so smart

Its pretty normal from what I've seen in other parts of the world. Police lines get overrun, you don't want people getting their hands on live ammunition and guns. If it comes to the point where lethal rounds are required, new troops/police get sent in that are different from the normal crowd control and riot response police.

Given the way the Ukrainians and former Soviet republics tend to act with unruly protesters, they're not going to worry about arming the foot police with lethal rounds. They'll have BMPs and T-72s down the street with plenty of led in their machine guns.

hardinparamedic:ShawnDoc: Magorn: Saying cops are only USING non-lethal armaments is one thing. Saying they are not CARRYING anything stronger, especially when there is unrest teetering on the fine line between protest and revolution? That's maybe not so smart

Its pretty normal from what I've seen in other parts of the world. Police lines get overrun, you don't want people getting their hands on live ammunition and guns. If it comes to the point where lethal rounds are required, new troops/police get sent in that are different from the normal crowd control and riot response police.

Given the way the Ukrainians and former Soviet republics tend to act with unruly protesters, they're not going to worry about arming the foot police with lethal rounds. They'll have BMPs and T-72s down the street with plenty of led in their machine guns.

Also given the ubiquity of the Kalashnikov in the former Soviet Bloc it's unlikely that the protesters don't already have access to automatic rifles and lots of ammunition.

Hey, give em a break. when the Soviet Union fell, there was a shiatload of free or bargain basement priced hardware to scoop up. Whatever didn't go to the Middle East or Chinese got sent to Eastern Europe.

hardinparamedic:ShawnDoc: Magorn: Saying cops are only USING non-lethal armaments is one thing. Saying they are not CARRYING anything stronger, especially when there is unrest teetering on the fine line between protest and revolution? That's maybe not so smart

Its pretty normal from what I've seen in other parts of the world. Police lines get overrun, you don't want people getting their hands on live ammunition and guns. If it comes to the point where lethal rounds are required, new troops/police get sent in that are different from the normal crowd control and riot response police.

Given the way the Ukrainians and former Soviet republics tend to act with unruly protesters, they're not going to worry about arming the foot police with lethal rounds. They'll have BMPs and T-72s down the street with plenty of led in their machine guns.

And of course, the first reaction from FARK isn't to wonder who actually did shoot the protesters with live ammo (the most likely culprit, opposition leaders playing the victim card, doesn't fit The Narrative), but to point out that non-live ammo can still be lethal.

Tatterdemalian:And of course, the first reaction from FARK isn't to wonder who actually did shoot the protesters with live ammo (the most likely culprit, opposition leaders playing the victim card, doesn't fit The Narrative), but to point out that non-live ammo can still be lethal.

Magorn:ShawnDoc: hardinparamedic: Well, depending on how you use them, beanbags and rubber bullets can be pretty lethal too, Mister President.

As can Chinese made tear gas canisters. They have a tendency to explode and send metal shrapnel out.

Also subby, its pretty normal when dealing with protests and riots to announce the police are not carrying live ammunition, and are only armed with non-lethal rounds. It helps keep things from escalating from rocks and rubber bullets to real bullets.

Saying cops are only USING non-lethal armaments is one thing. Saying they are not CARRYING anything stronger, especially when there is unrest teetering on the fine line between protest and revolution? That's maybe not so smart

This. Obviously Yushchenko is not a poker player. Way to show your hand.

Hey, give em a break. when the Soviet Union fell, there was a shiatload of free or bargain basement priced hardware to scoop up. Whatever didn't go to the Middle East or Chinese got sent to Eastern Europe.

those T-90s are more for Russia and China to play with

Yep. Gotta give the Russians Credit, a tank that was first made in the 1960s as a reaction to the M-60 is still gracing battlefields today as one of the most numerous and produced armored vehicles on the face of the earth, if you count the knock-off variants that China, the former soviet republics, and the middle east continue to produce.

Magorn:ShawnDoc: hardinparamedic: Well, depending on how you use them, beanbags and rubber bullets can be pretty lethal too, Mister President.

As can Chinese made tear gas canisters. They have a tendency to explode and send metal shrapnel out.

Also subby, its pretty normal when dealing with protests and riots to announce the police are not carrying live ammunition, and are only armed with non-lethal rounds. It helps keep things from escalating from rocks and rubber bullets to real bullets.

Saying cops are only USING non-lethal armaments is one thing. Saying they are not CARRYING anything stronger, especially when there is unrest teetering on the fine line between protest and revolution? That's maybe not so smart

Maybe it's a way of forcing a change in policy?

/ever heard of politics?//do you like to watch movies about gladiators?///ever hang out in a men's locker room... just to be there?

Tatterdemalian:And of course, the first reaction from FARK isn't to wonder who actually did shoot the protesters with live ammo (the most likely culprit, opposition leaders playing the victim card, doesn't fit The Narrative), but to point out that non-live ammo can still be lethal.

/which is technically correct//the best kind of correct

Is it a possibility that this was self-inflicted by protestors to drum up sympathy against the regime, maybe. There is some benefit to the opposition, but the sides are pretty split between rural and urban and east and west that a couple protestors getting shot isn't going to move public support much. And certainly no outside force will get involved so if they were to try and fake this and hope it isn't discovered or believed, I don't know how much they actually achieve over the risk of being discredited.

Now looking at the government in power, they have been a bit hamfisted in the handling of things. Is it really that big of a stretch that some of their forces could have fired live rounds (or less than lethal rounds in an improper manner)? Especially when Putin is pressuring the government to end this disruption so that they can continue on with the intergration of the Ukraine into the Russian customs union.

Which is more likely, one protestor shooting another for PR purposes or a riot police/military soldier getting a little too aggressive when having protestors beat or throw stuff at them?

Tatterdemalian:And of course, the first reaction from FARK isn't to wonder who actually did shoot the protesters with live ammo (the most likely culprit, opposition leaders playing the victim card, doesn't fit The Narrative), but to point out that non-live ammo can still be lethal.

/which is technically correct//the best kind of correct

I'm pretty suspicious of the claim that this was a "false flag" just to incite the rioters. This was the same claim during the Green Revolution that people used to discount the anger over Neda.

LewDux:The use of live ammunition by police in Kyiv would only increase what is already a highly volatile situation, Amnesty International said today after four protesters were killed and the government issued a statement saying that police may start using live ammunition.

The death of a man after being brutally beaten by two riot police officers is another example of pervasive police impunity in Ukraine.

Video footage shows a sustained attack by the two officers beating and kicking the man on top of the colonnades at the entrance to the Dynamo Kyiv football stadium on Monday, before dragging him away.

One of those non-lethal slugs pulled out of a protester. From the stuff I've seen my friends pick up off the ground the riot police is using Fiocci 12-gauge plastic buckshot and these nice little brass slugs that I can't ID.

The guys that were shot overnight are rumored to have caught a 9x18 Makarov rounds (neck and head of the first guy), and 7.62x54R from an SVD through the heart (second guy).

zyrian:One of those non-lethal slugs pulled out of a protester. From the stuff I've seen my friends pick up off the ground the riot police is using Fiocci 12-gauge plastic buckshot and these nice little brass slugs that I can't ID.

LewDux:The use of live ammunition by police in Kyiv would only increase what is already a highly volatile situation, Amnesty International said today after four protesters were killed and the government issued a statement saying that police may start using live ammunition.

The death of a man after being brutally beaten by two riot police officers is another example of pervasive police impunity in Ukraine.

Video footage shows a sustained attack by the two officers beating and kicking the man on top of the colonnades at the entrance to the Dynamo Kyiv football stadium on Monday, before dragging him away.

Oh...dear.

NPR was reporting 3 deaths this morning.

Anyone know if "Princess Leia" is still alive? Last I had heard, she was on a hunger strike.

Unknown snipers played a pivotal role throughout the so-called « Arab Spring Revolutions » yet, in spite of reports of their presence in the mainstream media, surprisingly little attention has been paid to to their purpose and role.The Russian investigative journalist Nikolay Starikov has written a book which discusses the role of unknown snipers in the destabilization of countries targeted for regime change by the United States and its allies...

In Susanne Brandstätter's documentary 'Checkmate: Strategy of a Revolution' aired on Arte television station some years ago, Western intelligence officials revealed how death squads were used to destabilize Romania and turn its people against the head of state Nicolai Ceaucescu.

Brandstätter's film is a must see for anyone interested in how Western intelligence agencies, human rights groups and the corporate press collude in the systematic destruction of countries whose leadership conflicts with the interests of big capital and empire."

LewDux:OK, I'll start. How Romanian people suddenly started hating Ceaucescu

Unknown snipers played a pivotal role throughout the so-called « Arab Spring Revolutions » yet, in spite of reports of their presence in the mainstream media, surprisingly little attention has been paid to to their purpose and role.The Russian investigative journalist Nikolay Starikov has written a book which discusses the role of unknown snipers in the destabilization of countries targeted for regime change by the United States and its allies...

In Susanne Brandstätter's documentary 'Checkmate: Strategy of a Revolution' aired on Arte television station some years ago, Western intelligence officials revealed how death squads were used to destabilize Romania and turn its people against the head of state Nicolai Ceaucescu.

Brandstätter's film is a must see for anyone interested in how Western intelligence agencies, human rights groups and the corporate press collude in the systematic destruction of countries whose leadership conflicts with the interests of big capital and empire."

MorePeasPlease:zyrian: Damn thing was supposed to be plastic and weigh about 1/4oz (8.5g). Why the hell does this thing look like a chunk of steel - no idea. Either way there are reports of 30+ people losing eyeballs

Huh? That cannot look anymore plastic than it does. Either way, bad news to be on the receiving end.

I don't think those are the same things as the surgical picture you showed above. They look similar, but the first one looks far too metallic and intact to be a plastic round.

There was an interview with the manufacturer of the shotgun rounds (TEREN) - he said that the metal ones are large game hunting slugs and obviously not meant for riot suppression. He has no idea why the metal ones are used on the protesters.