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Urban/Quebec Conservative MP’s getting called out on their gun registry vote

Posted by Scott Tribe on September 17, 2010, at 8:43 pm |

I asked last week whether urban and Quebec Conservative MP’s were really following their constituents wishes if this was a “true” free vote on a supposed “private members bill” to kill the gun registry. After all, if it’s a private members bill, it should be a free vote, according to the Conservatives, and it should reflect the wishes of your constituents. So, if that’s the case, what about these aforementioned MP’s in those ridings? Are they really reflecting their constituents wishes, or are they getting privately “whipped” behind the scenes, as Liberal MP Glen Pearson has said several Conservative MP’s have privately told him?

I’m pleased to see others are asking the same questions, and others are asking those constituents more publicly the same thing:

I hope these are being replicated and plastered on street corners and billboards in every Quebec and urban Conservative MP’s riding, as well as the local newspaper in the ridings of those folks.

Don’t bother Stan.
They don’t know and they don’t care. If you own a gun, any kind of gun, your a criminal. Toronto’s “safe city program” proves that you can expect a hostile police to show up at your door to confiscate your legally bought property. It already happened to over a thousand Canadians who’s only crime was to be run afoul of a hostile bureaucracy.
The Toronto party has no clue who you are and has no room for you in their ragged red tent

@ridenrain, ah, boo-hoo. Guns are lethal weapons, for which a license is required, which has to be renewed, what, every five years? If the people with firearms are so blasé about those facts that it “slips their mind” and they don’t bother to renew their licenses, and get their weapons seized as a result: then, good — they clearly aren’t mindful of how vigilant they need to be about those things. Chances are, they’re not storing & transferring them properly, or they may be loaning them out or selling them willy nilly w/o knowing if it’s to someone w. a valid license. Or they may be leaving them somewhere where they could easily get found by their or the neighborhood kids who should themselves accidentally with them, or stolen by some low-level B&E’rs who pass them on to people who use them in hold-ups and drive-by’s etc.

Don’t play the victim, or fascist gov’t card, for the fact that some people either can’t respect the rather simple rule on the need to renew their license, or who run afoul of the law or pose safety risks for other reasons (like uttering threats to their spouses or co-workers etc.). These measures are there to prevent ‘going postal’ events, like the guy who went into the Johns Hopkins hospital with a gun to snuff his mother, the other day.

It is interesting how 12 Democrats and 8 Liberal MPs voted against keeping the wasteful boondoggle created by Liberals until recently.

Gayle, Marie and others want to pin this on as “conservative propaganda” and scripts based on misinformation. Gayle repeats the pattern by suggesting this might be the biggest donor draw without any evidence.

Gayle suggest Conservatives are trying to scare Canadians. Keeping it the LGR saves lives? Victimization of women card for LGR and suggesting this is an urban rural question?

Was it the Liberal President who sent out a fundraiser mailer suggesting H1N1 was our Katrina? Was it Bob Rae who blamed the Federal Government on the death of the teen hockey player on national tv? Was it the opposition who said brown people are not safe because of this federal government? What medical doctor and Liberal MP apologized to aboriginals over her ten percent flyer?

Who solicited for funds for a 28 day delay during the Liberals was a threat to democracy?

I am a subscriber to emails from the Liberal Party and I can paste hundred examples of fear mongering and wedge politics.

Since losing power the membership has not returned and the donations have not increased to match the Conservatives?

We can make excuses and blame some evil right wing Christian gun loving fringe element in Canada or look in the mirror.

@Gayle, Nice try Gayle, a non Liberal defending Liberals, wonders never cease. I am confident this flip flop of 20 MPs for adherence to the leadership in Toronto won’t have any consequence at the polls.

How many cheerleader outfits do you own, do they include pom poms?

Heck I am sure insulting the voters as ‘chubby chasers’, Mafia narrative will work out too in the Mayoralty race in Toronto! Give my best to Smitherman, Rossi and Pantalone. I missed the Epic Titantic movie directed by Cameron but the coalition efforts to save the LGR for has been wonderful. Thanks again for demonstrating why a majority is necessary.

Sheep (The house the coalition built)
Partisan hacks, paid pundits, news media cheerleaders don’t get it, they are too close and parrot talking points from their camp. The voters will decide and it looks like (Liberal-Socialist) incumbents are getting their walking papers.

Only tools believe everything a politicians states. Clearly you can’t accept the fact CPC have been public with scrapping the LGR for years. Some Liberals are compelled to attack others who don’t share their world view.

It appears in Europe, Australia and in Canada the socialist voices of the left are losing the higher ground. Feel free to join the others on this Hill for this Liberal boondoggle.

The conservatives have been promoting their propoganda about the registry for years. There has been very little coverage or information about the benefits of the long gun registry, until just recently. Now that the police chiefs have spoken up, people are starting to understand that what the conservatives have been saying is wrong. Opinions are changing.

The irony is that had the conservatives not decided to go hard against the people who supporting their bill it would have passed without anyone really noticing. That is one reason why I suspect they really have no interest in seeing the registry disbanded. It is probably their single biggest donor draw. By feigning interest in having it disbanded they are able to bring back the donors who were starting to believe Harper is all talk and no action.

@ConHateanNonSense,
I know your lot is allergic to evidence, but here’s why it’s not just a “claim”:

Average annual rate of female spousal homicide victims killed by Long-Guns for the interval b/w 1998-2000, just before the LGR established:

0.150 per 100,000 spouses.

Ave. Rate for 2004-2006, just after the LGR’s ’01-03 mandatory input period was finished :

0.100 per 100,000 spouses.

Relative Change: a 33% reduction.

Rate for most recent period thre’s data on (2006-8):

0.080 per 100k female spouses.

That’s a 20% reduction in the homicides of female spousal victims in Canada that were caused by Long-Guns compared to the immediately preceding 3-yr., interval (’04-06), and a 47% reduction from 1998-20000.

Which can all be explained by the fact that the LGR helped make people more responsible about keeping their guns under lock and key, which reduces impulsive acts, and it also helps the police know how many guns to seize when there are threats of domestic violence.

And the corresponding rates for TOTAL female victim spousal homicides to show there hasn’t just been a shift to other methods during this time?

An ave. of 0.687 out of every 100,000 female spouses in Canada killed each year (or 7 out of every million) in the 3-yr. interval from 1998-2000, just before the LGR was put together, and 0.543/100k from 2006-8: a net reduction of 21% compared to the pre-LGR period.

The media sure do go on about gun violence, but they may have found their inspiration in then opposition leader Stephen Harper’s decision to stand at the site of Jane Creba’s murder and make false claims about the “soft” criminal justice system in this country. They may have found further inspiration in Prime Minister Stephen Harper’s insistence that we increase minimum sentences for gun crimes, and change the law on bail for gun crimes.

In fact, I am pretty sure the whole basis of the Harper conservatives’ justice policy is that crime is completely out of control in this country. They want Canadians to be afraid.

But that was some real nice historical revision there. And that whole “the big bad mean nasty media are picking on us” simply does not fly. Those paranoid conspiracy theories are best expressed on a blog site populated by people stupid enough to believe them.

Has the media been balanced in covering murder and gun violence? Seven-in-ten Canadians (70%) believe gun violence in Canada is a “very serious” or “moderately serious” problem.

A plurality of Canadians (44%) calls for scrapping the long gun registry—including large majorities in the Prairies (65%) and Alberta (59%). More than a third of respondents (35%) are opposed to this course of action, including 51 per cent of Quebecers.

Anyone believe the population is concentrated on farms in 2010? Where do these people live are they in cities and suburbs that call for scrapping the LGR?

Is it possible the media in the largest cities are partly responsible along with the leadership of the Liberals, Democrats, in fear mongering by linking the issue of private property rights (gun ownership) and the gun violence?

Just like CAGW debate the same tactics by the same suspects is being deployed with an emotional argument invoking fear and guilt.

If you don’t agree with the Liberal world view you should be silenced? See Suzuki,Atwood.

If you don’t believe in unskeptical science by the Al Gore+UN Club for a Carbon Trading Market you are a big oil shill, a denier. If you don’t accept a registry of a legal guns in Miramichi will stop the use of illegal guns and gun violence in Vancouver, Toronto you must be a mindless Conservative voter.

This boils down to the hysteria in the media, lame-stream media enabled talking points by Police Chiefs, Liberal-Democrats.
A skeptical person would look to see if bans did work in other countries. Did the rate of murder decrease in those countries after a ban in hand guns? If it did not work in countries where private property rights were destroyed on legal handguns BANS have taken place than why would it work here?

I did NOT buy their excuse for the mass detentions, G20 arrests on Sunday afternoon and I am not convinced legal gun owners are the problem with gun violence in G.T.A. of Toronto-Vancouver)

Satisfaction of leadership and direction of Government and country by many pollsters demonstrates the disconnect with partisans.

Ekos Poll September 8-14

51% Country right direction
41% Government right direction

Nearly 78% of Conservatives voters are happy with the direction of the country and government. Between 25-35% partisans are happy with the direction of the government in the Liberal Democrat camps. Only Bloc voters are very low with 14.2%

What part does the mass media play in the hardening the local views of voters?

Scott, thanks for your excellent coverage of this issue — it was a very good catch on your part to notice that the urban Cons are also following their party line rather than listening to their constituents on this issue. The media needs to be covering this and, I think, are beginning to do so.

@Stan, um, what do you mean, “us,” Kemo Sabe? You mean the police have more authorization to search _your_ home if they know you’ve got a sizable cache of weapons such that you could pose a substantial threat to public safety, and they’ve got some reason to believe you’re breaking some laws and they need to investigate? That should disturb us?

Hmmm… no, of the two, I’m more worried about, “no, we don’t care how many weapons you have, as long as they’re not handguns.”

But, again, it’s not either/or: both the Libs & the NDP want to modify C-68 to address stuff like that, but keep the LGR operational, so if they haven’t addressed that, yet, add it to the list.

@JJ, and who’s on about those “warrantless seachers”? The NRA, and their sock-puppet, Mauser

www + .nraila.org/Issues/articles/read.aspx?ID=4

It’s not clear that it’s even true. I’ve heard that it’s _easier_ to get warrants when people are known to have a lot — like, 10 — guns, because Canadian judges take that as prima facie evidence that they’re dealing with a possible anti-social militiaman / survivalist, esp. since the police have come to them with some concerns.

Oh yeah. It is the opposition who are trying to divide Canadians based on education, region, religion and race.

This must be one of those “if you say it often enough people will believe it” tactics.

Meanwhile, John Baird runs around complaining about “elites” in Toronto, and politicians with academic backgrounds are called “out of touch”, and statisticians and the people who use the data they collect are also called “elites” and “out of touch”.

Opposition parties do not understand “rural” voters, but apparently that comment is perfectly acceptable and not at all divisive.

I gotta hand it to CS – always, always, always good for a laugh. I get the impression he honestly believes he is helping the conservative cause.

I keep hearing from Liberals that scrapping the LGR is a rural urban, male vs female issue without providing ANY proof.

As an urban dweller (non gun owner), my objection has been for a termination of tax funded program that is ineffective.

To date the emotional talking points invoking a culture war by apologists to save the registry has not changed my mind. As I said the same pattern has taken place around CAGW. Fear mongering works best with young schoolchildren.

It reminds me of the debate to limit Sun Television Cat2 application labeling it hateful propaganda.

Liberalism was about personal responsibility and liberty from the state. For some it has changed, they adopted socialism and big government today after becoming addicted to the trough. (No thanks)

Some Liberals take offence if their leader is called an elitist. Thankfully the CBC was available to correct the official record and remind us Jack Layton and Michael Ignatieff are not elitists from Toronto.

a) most of the gun owners, and the vast majority of those who misuse them, are males, and it’s mostly the gun-owning men who are complaining about the registy (I don’t have those stats at my fingertips, but could likely find them, if need be); and,

b) most of the spousal homicides (80% b/w 1998-2007) are committed by males, and the males use guns to kill their (past or current) partners more often (28% of the time) than females do (11%), such that, of the 182 spousal murders commited by firearms that decade, 165 (91%) were female victims. (source: Canadian Centre for Justice Statistics, Homicide Survey, www + .statcan.gc.ca/pub/85-224-x/2009000/t028-eng.htm )

And of those 165 women shot dead by their spouses (which incl’s common-law & divorces ones) that decade, 98, or nearly 60% were killed by Long Guns (i.e., rifles & shotguns); and 19( 12%) by sawed-off v’s of them; and only 48 (29%) by a handgun. (Leaving a remainder of one, in this breakdown, which could have been a nailgun or pelletgun which could have got classified as an “Other weapon” in this other table I’m using from Breitkreuz’ site).

Oh, and the GritChick reported recently, there are surveys out to the effect that 70% of the women surveyed whose partners had guns were very uneasy about the prospect of being shot by them.

Guns are highly problematic in homes, because it’s easier, from a squeemishness and really have to think about it pt. of view, and far more likely to be fatal than other means of, um, winning an argument.

@Ottlib, Interesting comment that is easily refuted. I am on the record against the size and speed of EAP. I am against corporate welfare including money spent for parades in Calgary in Toronto, CFL game out east.

I was against the Auto bailout. Supporting the current government is made easy by the virtue of the non-existent alternative called Liberals.

Since losing power in 2006 what have Liberals proposed as an alternative policy in parliament to the Conservative agenda?

Where are the policies of the Liberals? How many votes do Liberals routinely skip to ensure no election?

We have had a minority since 2004 and I can remember Liberals demanding we use taxpayers dollars to give free abortions to African women. Do you have any constructive use of their opposition days?

@Ottlib, yeah, I know there’s about as much chance of those two changing their mind about something the Libs & Cons fundamentally disagree on, or of ceasing to change the subject when their arguments collapse, as there is of resolving the Israel/Palestine situation peacefully (until the PMO/QMI talking points direct them to, that is).

But I persist because I’m hoping other progressive types are reading and can do something constructive with the various evidence, lines of argument, & counter-attacks I’ve presented to help neutralize those pesky con-bots in other fora, as well.

Canada per capita Co2 vs China is an example is often cited by alarmists. It does NOT change the FACT that China is a much bigger emitter of Co2. So if Canada is responsible for 2-3% Globally vs China 20%+ which is the bigger problem?

The facts for scrapping the LGR have not changed for the Liberals+NDP MPs that were whipped or had a change of heart courtesy of two leaders from Toronto.

Arbitrary Comparisons Between Countries

The U.S. has a high gun murder rate, whereas a country like England with strict gun controls has almost no gun murders and a very low murder rate. Doesn’t this show that gun control is effective in reducing murder rates? Not exactly. Prior to having any gun controls, England already had a homicide rate much lower than the United States (Guns, Murders, and the Constitution: A Realistic Assessment of Gun Control, Don B. Kates Jr.). Japan is another country typically cited (see Japanese Gun Control, by David B. Kopel). (Briefly discussing the difference in homicide rates between England and the U.S. is Clayton Cramer’s, Variations in California Murder Rates: Does Gun Availability Cause High Murder Rates?)

Gun control opponents can play similar games. The Swiss with 7 million people have hundreds of thousands of fully-automatic rifles in their homes (see GunCite’s “Swiss Gun Laws”) and the Israelis, until recently, have had easy access to guns (brief summary of Israeli firearms regulations here). Both countries have low homicide rates. Likewise this doesn’t mean more guns less crime.http://www.guncite.com/gun_control_gcgvinco.html

@CanadianSense, and some of you dutifully recite the NRA-by way of Gary Mauser-talking points right on cue; and some of you spin your heads around in both directions more than Linda Blair in The Excorcist:

“We don’t need any fancy-ass stats to know we need to spend billions more on prisons because crime is going up,” but, er, “We demand proof that the registry works.”*

“We ReformaTories believe in free votes and honestly voting to represent the wishes of our constituents,” but, er, we virtually always vote as one, and we don’t poll our own constituencies on their current preferences on a subject, and we vote the party line even though we got less than a 51% majority of the votes even in many of the ridings we won.”

Are you seriously maintaining that the majority of the constituents in the Conservative MP’s urban and Quebec ridings want the LGR abolished, and that the MPs have any good evidence that that’s the case? That’s hooey, and you know it.

*p.s., there _is_ proof now, that C-68 works, from a study completed by the Master’s student Marie-Pier Gagné in 2008, which will be appearing soon in the peer-reviewed Canadian Journal of Criminology and Criminal Justice, which uses complex statistical tests which take all the other methods of killing into account to show that the combination of Bill C-68 & its LGR component have reduced firearms suicides by an estimated 250 per year, on average, and firearms homicides by 50 a year.

@Redrum, As a non gun owner living in Oakville I am not interested in Liberals playing games trying to divide Canadians based on education, region, religion and race. Frank Graves – Peter Donolo advice strategy of a culture war is going to backfire. Look to Rob Ford
Tor and the tea partiers in the US taking out big government Republicans and Democrats who are out of touch.

I understand how important it is to play scary, stupid, rural, bible wavers in your talking points. It reminds me of Mark Holland shutting down the debate regarding the public veil controversy at the airport in August.

As I have repeated a number of Liberal and NDP democrats have a PUBLIC record with statements that LGR was ineffective for YEARS and voted to scrap it. Those MPs made promises and will be held accountable for breaking their word.

What has changed in the last few weeks? The leadership of the Liberals and NDP whipped their MPs to save it a few weeks ago.

The leadership of Liberals-Democrats are located in Toronto?

It appears some of you have a difficulty with voters being made aware of those broken promises of those MPs through billboards, a third party groups. It is being held accountable by local voters.

I have a great deal of confidence in the voters. They were consistent in 2006, 2008, 2009 and will send another message in 2010 to the Liberals. I am looking forward to the four contests in 2010.

Common sense. It seems to me that you do not have a problem with Harpers many broken promises or the fact that this bill is Harpers bill and not a FPB. What about his entire cacus being whipped. you don’t seem to have a problem with that so my dear, keep your nose out of the oppositions business and stick with your own if you even have any credibilty left to have one.

Tell me, if guns are not dangerous weapons and the simple fact that the registry is just what it says. A place to register your guns and free. Easy too. It doesn’t matter if your a hunter because the facts are that just because you register your rifle doesn’t mean you still can’t hunt now does it? Have anyone of you had time to reason that out? Probably not as well as your cult leader who is nothing but a liar and bully and anything but credible. You love him, you can have him because as far as I’m concerned, he will soon be history in Canadian politics. But go ahead CS, keep spreading the Reformatory Alliance so called Con propaganda. You parrots are the only ones listening any way. adious

Give it up CS, your excuses are not even worth reading because you don’t even have a clear reason for being to stubborn and suffer greatly from lacking any kind of common sense.

I applaud your example of calling our PM a control freak over Iggy and Jack whipping their own MPs.

CS if you have any, are you thinking that it is okay if Harper whips his members? By your retorts, you need not answer because your statments say just that. BTW, go attack on your own blog as your readers are just as blinded as you are so they will un-doubtly agree with you

Yes CS, stay tuned when you eventually, the sooner the better have to say goodbye to your hero while the rest of us kichk his ass right out of Parliment and with a great deal of his ministers. People in general are not as gullible as you seem to think they are. Just because Harper and you think so, it doesn’t make it facts. CS, you do not own up to your chosen log name. Put an Un in front of it and then we might agree with you.