Not to just delight in ragging on Carver. I know I've done it before. With some more distance from it and it being clear that other characters see his flaws, it's easier to feel sorry for the guy. His seemingly unerring ability to find the worst possible approach to any problem is definitely tragic, but it's also within his ability to at least attempt to mitigate, and the collateral damage is only piling higher. Anyway, this page is [absolutely delightful] regardless.

I'm really engaged in what's going on right now. I'm not entirely sure what that is, but it's engaging. Seems like the people at the Gunnerkrigg forums have some ideas, but I haven't read those threads thoroughly enough.

At this point I'd like to remind that after Chapter 59 concluded with a thrilling cliff-hanger, we had once again our two-weeks-worth of Awesome Cool Pigeons, and we are now back with Chapter 60. With webcomics and other serial fiction it's always hard to tell, but this might actually be a third act of the whole story, or at last one of the main subplots.

Both Kat's (current) etheric appearance and her unusual perception of the Ether has been shown before.

The etheric appearance in the cruise-boat plot, and her perception of the Ether when they helped Mort leave.

Much of the Ether is a "show", which the Ether makes "real". Kat appears to see through the "show" and gets ridiculously simple analogies of what is going on "under it".

Super-spoiler-riffic:

Spoiler:

There is some evidence that Kat is/was/will be a robot-god, as the Ether does not obey linear time (the footprint created by human belief before humans existed). That robotic monster may reflect that fact.

This relies on the fact that Robots can influence the Ether like humans can; they worship Kat, and hence warp her Etheric reality into a diety.

And into wild speculation:

Spoiler:

The Robots influencing the Ether being part of the Gunnerkigg court experiment of using machines to control the Ether; so they can harness it and make mankind into gods, as Coyote so helpfully explained when Annie asked what Gunnerkigg court is about, then passed it off as a joke.

One of the painful things about our time is that those who feel certainty are stupid, and those with any imagination and understanding are filled with doubt and indecision - BR

Red telling it like it is! Annie not realizing what sort of leverage she was employing on Ayilu is shitty. I can't say that I blame her as much for what happened to Andrew, and the risks everyone else was taking. I think they knew the risks involved, and she didn't make an unfair deal with them as she did with Ayilu. Also Andrew and Parley are arguably working in an official capacity.

I love that Red so quickly shifts from a playful sort of mood to "shit's serious now". It's very much in-character, and it's admirable that she's able to enjoy the moment while keeping sight of the big picture.

Plus, she's kind of talking about how Annie screwed Ayilu while Ayilu is right there. She's got what she wanted; she could speak for herself now too; but Red is too busy speaking for her. And that's because Ayilu doesn't actually seem to give a fuck. Maybe she will; maybe she should; but she doesn't right now. It just feels kind of patronizing. And of course it's deflection too; Red would rather think about everyone else's fuckups right now than her feelings. And I don't know that just because Annie gave A something that is easy and low-value to her in exchange for something super dangerous from A, means it was a bad or exploitative deal. If this were the only chance A would've had to get a name, then yes! That would be shady as fuck! But as far as we've heard, this was just an early chance, a shortcut. If A values that enough to do something dangerous, doesn't she have that right? She has the right to have her own values and make her own decisions, even if others don't agree with them or with her priorities. Like why I think women should have the right to serve equally in the US military, despite personally thinking that joining the US military is often a dubious decision on several fronts. People should have the right to make decisions for themselves that I disagree with. And yes, when the system is rigged and decisions are constrained, there is broader culpability, and maybe the Court system of rationing out names is like that; it's hard to tell, we don't have any context for what the system is or who created it or why. Still, saying she was just used seems a little infantalizing. I'm just reminded of the whole Manhattan for beads meme, where the popular idea is that natives traded away something huge for something stupid, but the real problem (if I have it right) wasn't that it was inherently a stupid deal on the face of it, but that it was actually a total lie and the Europeans proceeded to swindle and screw them over at every opportunity. I dunno.

Annie didn't realize a name is such a big thing. She didn't try to swindle Ayilu, but she didn't understand her culture well enough, and didn't bother to investigate deeply enough about what it means. Annie knew she was asking Ayilu to do something dangerous, but she didn't know how much her offer skewed her judgement. Of course Ayilu can make that judgement on her own! But Annie didn't realize how much she was pressuring Ayilu into cooperating by offering her a name.

As I said before, I think Annie's understanding of the other people who helped her is greater and she understood more fully why people were cooperating. Like, saving Jeanne has always been a common goal for both Annie and Kat, and talking with the guides to save Andrew made a lot of sense.

Red makes many valid points but one that I don't think is valid (but maybe Red can't know that) is

Spoiler:

that it wouldn't have helped to let Parley teleport Andrew to a doctor; if the spirit guides were there he was already as good as dead... right?

Anyway loving the way Tom suddenly jarred me out of the Annie-as-good-guy-POV with almost as much force as Annie was jarred herself by the outburst. Red's parting comment is of course utterly unfair* but also loved the way she didn't hesitate to call Annie on her shit.

*edit: It seems Tom agrees?

Spoiler:

http://www.gunnerkrigg.com/?p=1806

gunnerkrigg fairies jerks.PNG (5.21 KiB) Viewed 10120 times

Proverbs 9:7-8 wrote:Anyone who rebukes a mocker will get an insult in return. Anyone who corrects the wicked will get hurt. So don't bother correcting mockers; they will only hate you.

Hawknc wrote:FFT: I didn't realise Proverbs 9:7-8 was the first recorded instance of "haters gonna hate"

Plus, she's kind of talking about how Annie screwed Ayilu while Ayilu is right there. She's got what she wanted; she could speak for herself now too; but Red is too busy speaking for her. And that's because Ayilu doesn't actually seem to give a fuck. Maybe she will; maybe she should; but she doesn't right now. It just feels kind of patronizing.

Spoiler:

Ayilu's body-language gave me a very strong sense of 'Oh! You're talking to her about that thing we discussed, now? Okay'. IE, to me, this felt very much like a conversation had happened between the two off-screen, and Ayilu was just letting Red deal with her friend. (I know Red said she hasn't told Ayilu that she loves her, but that doesn't mean she hasn't talked to her about "that fucked up thing Ann did")

There's also the fact that Ayilu scarcely knows Ann; she's Red's friend, not Ayilu's -- so that's her business. If my spouse had a good friend I scarcely knew, and my spouse one day told them they couldn't be friends anymore, and they didn't want them to even speak with me -- I would probably be okay with this, even if we hadn't spoken beforehand. I mean, I'm a guy, so different context, maybe... but if I have a strong relationship with you, I can trust you to tend your own relationships -- that includes throwing someone out of your world and mine, presuming I only have a relationship with them through you in the first place. Like, depending on the nature of our relationship, that's a power I can entrust you with; you can cut somebody out of my life if they're only in my life because they're your friend.

If I formed a relationship with them that expanded outside of that secondary relationship, it would be different. Similarly, I'd find it way more messed up if Ayilu and Ann knew each other in a context outside of Ayilu's relationship with Red.

I didn't make the connection they didn't ask her mom for anything, but I did think they might have been manipulating her. I should read the comics from the start again, it's been a really long time and I've forgotten a lot. It seems like we're heading to the end (which is an obvious statement I suppose).

Zohar wrote:I didn't make the connection they didn't ask her mom for anything, but I did think they might have been manipulating her. I should read the comics from the start again, it's been a really long time and I've forgotten a lot. It seems like we're heading to the end (which is an obvious statement I suppose).

I just started this comic early Sunday morning and finished it early morning today, so most of this is fresh in my mind. It seems less like they are manipulating her (at least in any sinister way) and more like they want to be her guides or mentors, and have done this to bring her closer to them. In the end I doubt she will be going away to work exclusively for them, but may help out in certain situations.

I'm quite hopeful that we aren't nearing the end, there's so much more to wrap up and I've just fallen in love with this universe.