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Member

Founder's Club

Sometimes opportunities arise when gambling and you can take advantage of it to help your odds a bit. Would love to hear anybody else’s stories.

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I was playing Baccarat at a casino and was down 20k at the time. It was late night with two active tables and I was playing by myself on one table while 3 people on other table. Usually the tables get a supply of cards for a 24hr period before another fill comes.

Out of nowhere I hear the pit boss say to the other boss, they’re low on card decks.

Immediately I had a light bulb moment that had a small chance of succeeding. First, I needed to create my circumstance.

I started playing quicker and asked the dealer to speed things up while explaining that I was down a lot and needed volume for a chance to get even. My intention was to use up all the decks they had available at my table. I can go through a shoe in 15-20mins. During this stretch I rarely touch any of the cards. We finally got to the last remaining new shoe.

I slowed down my pace of play and sometimes motioned for the cards, took a very quick peek and slid them back to the dealer.

The shoe ended and I was now down 25k.

The dealer called the boss over; he asked if I would like to continue playing. I calmly stated I would love to continue because I’m down a lot and would like a chance to get some back before I fly out of town next day.

The boss hesitated and asked ME if I would mind if they just reuse the shoe because they are out of new cards. He looked at the shoe and it looked healthy, I didn’t destroy any of the cards or anything. He asked the dealer if I handled a lot of the cards last round. The dealer was tired and wasn’t sure. I immediately said I wasn’t sure either but said maybe a few hands; after all I was tired too and losing!. The boss took another look at the shoe and said ok, just shuffle up the shoe and reuse it--- THIS was an anomaly and not protocol of game procedure.

For the next 2 hours, I went on a heater. From down 25k to up 42k. A lot of my big bets won. How did I manage it?
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In my local areas there are a few advantage play teams and individuals. Using hole carding against particular dealers around town, they managed to win a steady amount at Ultimate Texas Holdem. But inevitably, others will get greedy and ruin it for everyone else. One particular team came in and was betting large and going for big wins. They would go from one casino to the other and just go for homeruns. Unfortunately, they brought a lot of heat to the game and their play was not subtle at all. The casinos implemented counter measures one by one and the opportunity for advantage play in that game disappeared. Selfish greed killed it. It was good for a year and half though.
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I had a casino manager ask me about a new blackjack player because we’re on friendly terms and I’m a regular patron. He was aggressive in his betting spreads in the double deck game (from 50 to 1500). Manager wondered if in my opinion the kid knew what he was doing. Of course since the kid was bringing heat to my action, I had to kill his action. I said yeah, the kid most likely knows what he is doing.

Now laws are different in this area (unlike Vegas), you can't back off a player here. You can only counter measure.

As long as I keep my wins reasonable in the game, they treat me well and deal me and everyone else a fairly decent game. It’s a symbiotic relationship. I don’t go for big wins, they treat me normally. When they do their chip count inventory, it would show a reasonable expectation for that table. Heat management can lead to a profitable relationship in advantage plays.

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Member

Founder's Club

A casino (not in Vegas) installed a bubble craps machine a few months back with limits high enough to make things interesting, and a slot club that on certain days returned 2% of the total action passed through the machine (including odds bets) in freeplay. This machine allows 3/4/5 odds, which means a house edge of 0.374% on the pass and 0.273% on the don't pass. This meant that anyone with a players club card that always played full odds was playing with an advantage of up to ~1.7% without doing anything else. Just a complete blunder on the part of the casino.

I saw this and started playing. My theoretical win was over $1,000 per hour. Instead, I wound up losing $30K just due to incredibly bad luck (you couldn't play both sides on this machine). I came back the next week to play, and struck up a conversation with a few guys that were playing. Turned out they were professional gamblers that had heard about the game and flew in from Vegas specifically to play it. It was of course dead when I came back to try it two weeks later - after the teams moved in and the casino was getting beaten to death, they took away all freeplay earning on that machine. So I haven't returned since, but it was fun knowing that I was playing with an edge over the casino even though I just had a really bad short-term run.

The more interesting part of it was that I traded contact info with one of the guys from Vegas. We've had some fascinating conversations, and it turns out that for the most part these guys don't even play - they just came in for that machine because it was particularly juicy. They are clearing over $500K/yr from casinos, rarely actually setting foot in them. There is a new frontier in advantage play, and it has nothing to do with being great at card counting, hole carding, complicated math, or even finding glitches in games. These guys don't even wind up putting large bankrolls at risk. I won't divulge their whole setup here, but suffice it to say there are perfectly legal ways to beat casinos without actually beating their games - and they'll keep welcoming you back. While I am not personally motivated enough to do the work to setup an operation like theirs, the whole thing has really opened my eyes.

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Member

Founder's Club

I was oblivious to a lot of activities until I met some friends and saw how they executed things. Your eyes truly open up to the creativity. Happy to hear there are lots more creative ways out there, I love learning and discovering the possibilities. The challenge of it makes for a fun hobby.

Staking poker players and putting them in juicy cash games where they can exploit their edges is the only thing I do that doesn't require me to step foot into a casino and still profit. Even then, that still requires me to put up a bankroll. I need to up my game and learn more.

I've heard about the bubble craps game. Some claim to be able to control the dice in the machines, casino counter measured by taking the top camera view away and/or making it lag.

One thing for sure, there's a lot of trust that is needed amongst the players. And it's a world within a world with varying levels.

Thanks for sharing. I have a feeling you have plenty more to share. Please do if you have time (within your ability to un-censor what you can)

To add to my previous story above.
The Midi bac game. The particular casino still makes the mistake of using the last shoe of cards when they run out of decks. It's within a small window that you can do this until new shift restocks the cards in the high limit room. Their biggest mistake is allowing the player to handle the cards, albeit in a nice way so cards don't get damaged and can be re-used. The edge in winning particular hands go from 50%-ish to 80%-ish.

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Unlike poker, folding is the only way!

Board DweebFounder's Club

Anything is possible I can only assume. One, I have played in many areas of the country and at very small casinos in the Midwest. Never once witnessed a used decks of cards at Midi or Macau style being re-used. Never once in decades. Not doubting, just floored. My wife's side of the family had some close relations to the Tran Gang on non-casino matters with the dealer collusion thing for their advantage play. They are all in federal custody practicing in fed prisons. Some of them were truly innocent of wrong-doing as they were solicited to 'just play with another's money and do nothing wrong', etc. Most were guilty as sin from day one but I only bring up the point to warn those that get 'roped-a-doped' to play in a casino because someone knows something, etc.

But like almost all thing criminal and even if not outright criminal, just say colluding a bit shy of criminality, greed will always-always-always set in, once again always. Money will do this, each and every single time. BTW-Tran gang was 100% brought down by greed. There are many other aspects out there these days. Be careful. My daughter spend more than a decade in 'Rules and Compliance' with Seminole Hard Rock and was one of the liaisons with the BIA to the State of Florida. Lots of interesting things in the world of casino gaming, especially in cards.

I have been in casinos, particularly in the Midwest and been solicited by another to play with the stake bankroll and follow what another very small bettor was going to do at a bac table. I was to get 20% of the win and if it went over $10k and a CTR involved he offered me 40%. I would not do it, no way.

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Junior Member

To add to my previous story above.
The Midi bac game. The particular casino still makes the mistake of using the last shoe of cards when they run out of decks. It's within a small window that you can do this until new shift restocks the cards in the high limit room. Their biggest mistake is allowing the player to handle the cards, albeit in a nice way so cards don't get damaged and can be re-used. The edge in winning particular hands go from 50%-ish to 80%-ish.

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Could you or someone explain me how this works in Baccarat? I mean, I've never played the game but I do understand the rules and tried it out for free online but I cannot seem to get my head around this. Why does it matter if it's a new set of cards or not? Why does it matter whether people handle the cards or not? To me it seems like the thing here would be that they're not shuffling the cards and each shoe is the same but surely that can't be the case.

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Unlike poker, folding is the only way!

Board DweebFounder's Club

Could you or someone explain me how this works in Baccarat? I mean, I've never played the game but I do understand the rules and tried it out for free online but I cannot seem to get my head around this. Why does it matter if it's a new set of cards or not? Why does it matter whether people handle the cards or not? To me it seems like the thing here would be that they're not shuffling the cards and each shoe is the same but surely that can't be the case.

Click to expand...

In the Tran Gang case and many others, dealers have been in collusion (criminal offenses 110%) with players for false shuffles. Of course less and less these days because of automatic shufflers. Still, in numerous casinos there is a hand shuffle still employed. But I have never ever seen it in 35 years of playing baccarat where a set of player handled cards were re-used. Possible, as anything, personally never witnessed it. Other then marking cards or a possible re-used deck with known defects contained in the couple of inches exactly in the middle of the card--the shoe would expose as the next card, personally--I don't see any advantage. I make no determination on what the OP stated thou, I said anything possible.

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Member

Founder's Club

Could you or someone explain me how this works in Baccarat? I mean, I've never played the game but I do understand the rules and tried it out for free online but I cannot seem to get my head around this. Why does it matter if it's a new set of cards or not? Why does it matter whether people handle the cards or not? To me it seems like the thing here would be that they're not shuffling the cards and each shoe is the same but surely that can't be the case.

Click to expand...

These are just stories. I DO NOT encourage anybody doing anything illegal. In fact, I personally think most people in a casino should not be there. But if you are going to do it, then just gamble for funsies!

The casino I referred to is not in the U.S.

As for how things may work, if you know with +90% certainty the first card for Player is 8 or 9, the odds of Player winning that hand is now better than 50/50. It does not guarantee you will win the hand. Similar to hole carding, edge sorting etc.
The legal cases with Ivey sheds a lot of light onto some of the issues.

The casino feels like they were taken advantaged of and want their money back because they are not suppose to lose. You are only allowed to win by rare luck in their eyes.

It's a philosophical view in my opinion (talking about Ivey cases) on whether or not what their actions are defined as cheating or not. I don't think what they did cheated at all. They just exploited some procedural vulnerabilities which gave them a huge edge over the casino.

Casino's do the exact same thing to players by enticing them to come play in the casino where the rules are set up in a specific way to guarantee the casino will win with high volume. Their marketing exploit player's psychologically to get them to return and spend as much time in the casino as possible. Gambling can be a very addictive act. It has a natural built in intermittent reward system to create that addiction. By being able to win once in awhile, it reinforces vulnerabilities in your mind. They serve alcohol, free in most cases, to encourage you to have a good time!! They don't actually care about your well being and best interest. It's a known fact that alcohol lowers inhibition and decision making skills. Why would the casino want you to not be at your sharpest when playing in their house?! Because they want to win, and it's legal for them to provide an environment that makes you as vulnerable as possible to them.

If you "hustle" the casino into breaking their own rules and protocol by doing something that now leaves them open to be exploited, they cry cheating. But when they smile and offer you drinks, a soft bed to sleep in, beautiful people around you, basically take good care of you... it's just being nice. Double standard and the law is in their favor if Ivey ends up losing.

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