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Pub Tuning 2017 #1 - Levis - Request For Comments

Hey folks. Here we are with another year of the spaceship game. We're constantly trying to keep the game adapting without changing too much of the core gameplay ... a delicate balance. I have some pub ideas I want to float past you. First is the Levi.

Current status
It's been about a year now since Levis have had L3 bombs, at the cost of 1/3 of their energy. I think most people agree that they're still deadly in the right hands, though, and that they can pose a serious threat to the livelihood of pub if players don't actively try to hunt them. Even hunting them can cause a flag game to dwindle, though, and arguably the flag game's at the core of pub.

Then vs Now
In the past, Levis had a much harder time greening because pub was in general more active in the spawn area. It was not easy to get to a safe, and even if you did, sometimes a weasel would be waiting for you to ruin your day in a highly comical fashion. Now LT teams are much more sophisticated, often with years of experience under their belts. Getting to safe rarely takes more than 1 or 2 deaths, and as we all know, once you make it to safe, you're nearly as good as attached. In the past, spawnkilling was a significant enough mitigating factor of Levi destruction. That's not the case anymore, especially when there are few players online, and a skilled LT can cause much of the arena to ragequit/spec.

Tweak Ideas
To compensate, we can go in a few directions. I have a few ideas to rework the Levi further into the Glass Cannon/squishy model (high damage + high risk of death if an error is made -- essentially, gearing toward it being a high skill cap/high learning curve ship).

#1) -Energy, -recharge, -bomb fire cost, -bullet fire cost
I'd like to try them with half the energy and recharge they have now, but also half the fire cost for bombs and bullets. Essentially, everything would be miniaturized in proportion to energy. It would feel exactly the same as it does now in terms of how often you can fire and how long it takes to recharge from 0 to full. This means Levis could be 1-shot by Lancs, and if not at absolute 100% energy, 1-shot even by Spiders and Terrs. It would also make Javs a much greater risk for them, as well as TKs from other Levis on an LT. This does provide a disadvantage for solo Levs, of course. But keep in mind that no disadvantage was so great as having L2 bombs! And that most ships are still able to basically 1-shot Levs already, so that it's more what's in their bag of tricks (reps, rocket, port, well-timed bullets/bombs) that can keep them alive anyhow. Mainly this change would help Spiders and Terrs... And they're underplayed as it is, so incentivizing them isn't a bad thing.

#2) Shared Greens/Attach Limit
The other move is to either reduce shared greens or to raise the attach limit. We could place shared greens at 10, 5, or even 0 (few people eat their greens for Levis' sake anymore, anyhow, as many are just TK factories). Or we could raise the attach limit to 25 or even 30. Both have roughly the same effect, which is to make it more difficult for a Levi to be able to attach. Raising the attach limit mostly means more grinding killing your friendly freq-switched terr after you make it to safe, whereas lowering the shared greens also means you won't receive as many tool refreshes or random full charges, and might not be as annoying overall for LTs. Shared green lowering does disadvantage solo Levis, but only those on public freqs. However, these are some of the worst and most annoying offenders for TKs. It may not be a bad thing to make it harder for them to survive long enough to get to the top of lower base, where they can then fire bombs at the base entrance while their freq is attacking.

#3) Bomb speed
Lastly, we can reduce bomb speed very slightly. This has the advantage of making it easier to guess when a bomb is about to pop the base, and means fewer TKs as well. Terrs can compensate for lack of speed by making moving shots. This has the effect of deincentivizing standing shots, which are currently the most common Levi shots, and require skill on the part of the Terr to set up but not much on the part of the Levi.

Final point: L3 vs L2
L3 bombs are difficult to balance in this day and age. We could go back to L2, but that seems to completely destroy the idea of what the Levi is. While not out of the question, I'd like to do everything we can to avoid having to go back down that road.

"You're a gentleman," they used to say to him. "You shouldn't have gone murdering people with a hatchet; that's no occupation for a gentleman."
-Dostoevsky's Crime and Punishment

Thanks qan for the time you put into this. However, the ship is by design not suitable for the basing aspect and no amount of tweaking (while keeping it "close" to its true settings) will get the job done.

The question you should ask the community is: In what direction do you want pub to go? Basing or FFA doing whatever they want.

Originally Posted by jerome

can we stop and wonder in amazement at the fact that we play a VIDEO GAME that has "generations"???

I think the most important part of any pub/balance change is to be incremental, and to avoid the sort of massive, sweeping changes that were the hallmark of many failures over the years. I learned this while developing and balancing the still very unbalanced Distension. What seems good conceptually is often riddled with problems in practice, making one small section of the population happy and another absolutely furious. If you have good, detailed arguments for major changes, they're definitely worth looking at and talking about, but some parts of pub are close to untouchable, because they're so ingrained in what the zone is.

Originally Posted by Major Crisis

Close the safes. No point in having them anyway.

They're definitely a fixture of the zone. They're also still used to maintain high bounties. And people sometimes use them for, uh, "safety meetings." Honestly it's probably on the whole better to have people in-game but in safe than in spec, anyhow. If it just prevents LTs from having a safe place to return to, they'll find new ways to do what's needed, such as relaxing in the southwest/southeast near the rocks, where nobody goes.

Originally Posted by Rab

Permanent pure pub or go home

Levis are a fixture of the zone. You can buy purepub for a recently-reduced price of $150K, though. (May reduce it further if it's not purchased often, and I'd like to raise the length of time it lasts for, to ensure people can get a few good basing games out of it.) Pool some $ with friends and buy it. For maximum effect, use it when an LT is being particularly annoying. If it's private-freq LTs causing problems, consider a buy of Sorta Pure Pub, which costs significantly less and only bans private-freq levs.

Originally Posted by Rab

Yeah I already said just chop the bottom half off the map.

The bottom half of the map is a fixture of the zone. :> Pub's not just about basing, though basing arguably keeps the pub going more than anything else. (Dueling these days is also quite a big thing.) Floating around aimlessly in spawn is how most of us learned to play, and it still serves that purpose for new players. Some people think that newbies need to immediately win glory in TWD or they'll be lost forever. Honestly, the level of play in TWD is about a year away from even a dedicated player. Maybe newbie squads would work now that newbie squad caps can be borrowed in matches so they could play games that actually match their skill level. But bottom line, before people think about basing seriously, they usually like to screw around a bit in spawn, and that's OK.

Originally Posted by Leland

give the Lancasters more bullets or more energy

The Lanc's pretty powerful as it is. Its afterburners are fantastic and very underused. Newer players tend to use it, but as TheSerpentMage proved back in the day, it can be incredibly destructive. I also had a summer maybe 4 years ago where I played pub several hours a night as a Lanc and got pretty great with it ... probably was the best Lanc in the zone for awhile (I understand how little that actually means, hahah), and inspired many people to start playing the ship during a time when the "NEWBS LANC" meme was going full tilt, though now I'm rusty as all hell. Bottom line is it's got its niche in pub, it's a strong situational ship and it's hardly in need of a buff.

Originally Posted by Jones

Thanks qan for the time you put into this. However, the ship is by design not suitable for the basing aspect and no amount of tweaking (while keeping it "close" to its true settings) will get the job done.
The question you should ask the community is: In what direction do you want pub to go? Basing or FFA doing whatever they want.

Yeah, it's not suitable for the basing aspect. But the blue terror is part of TW. I'm just trying to find ways to manage its presence, as always. And again, the basing aspect isn't all that there is of pub. Running as an LT and hunting, as well as dueling in spawn, are real and valid ways to play. I personally prefer a great base game, but my preference is pretty much irrelevant.

How we might play pub is actually my next question!... the soccer game was sort of a trial, to see how people would tolerate some options other than constant basing. New thread for that though. Would like to try and settle this Levi question first. If the general consensus is that it doesn't matter all that much, I may just go ahead and try this.

"You're a gentleman," they used to say to him. "You shouldn't have gone murdering people with a hatchet; that's no occupation for a gentleman."
-Dostoevsky's Crime and Punishment

I think adding stuff to try and make pub look more appealing and fun would give you the best outcome. If it was ever possible, can't we try showing a jackpot on the top of everyone's screen (including spec) as mentioned in an old idea thread of mine. The higher the jackpot rises, the more tempted players in spec would be to join in a win a share of the money or w/e. Make it so u have to join Freq 0 or 1 for a chance to win. The rewards at present is too boring and this jackpot replacement will make things interesting as I know people will just play to see how high they can get that jackpot

1:Hece> iv done good A (amphetamine) many times and ppl say u cant get your dick up on it..my dick works on every chemical i have tried so far

They're definitely a fixture of the zone. They're also still used to maintain high bounties. And people sometimes use them for, uh, "safety meetings." Honestly it's probably on the whole better to have people in-game but in safe than in spec, anyhow. If it just prevents LTs from having a safe place to return to, they'll find new ways to do what's needed, such as relaxing in the southwest/southeast near the rocks, where nobody goes.

The point is that people can't sit in safe anymore. So high bounties do get hunted out. LTs get hunted down and can't hide as easily. I have seen LTs just go afk for 20 mins so the hunters get bored. And whats good about having people sitting in safe? I also see downsides to it, like make teams uneven. Often enough I have been on teams with 2-3 people in safe while the team exists out of 5-6 people. Yea, it really adds something to do the game that they can sit in safe.. If these people wanna sit in safe so badly, why not close it and make a !safe command which warps and freq changes them. Just the same for the people who wants a safe party so badly.

And about LTs running into rocks, I don't see a problem with it. If pub is busy, people are dueling often in spawn etc. Besides that the LT still can't get safe enough to not get hunted down. I haven't been in pub for 1,5 months or something now, just cuz there are always LTs flying around ruining the whole thing. If a private freq with LT is already bigger than the pub freqs, whats the point? Even hunting them down is kinda impossible. They are feeded with 1 minute again. Maybe it's also an option to set a max amount of levs with x players. If only 10 people playing, no levs are allowed. 10+ is one each freq, 20+ is 2 each freq etc. And I dunno if it's possible. But private freqs shouldn't be able to get bigger than pub freqs.

I played base terr and did everything I could to even teams and get basing going in pub. No more. Levs usually ruin my efforts so I completely gave up basing in pub.

Instead, I've been playing solo levi almost exclusively. When people spawn in the base I can completely kill pub in about 10-15 minutes at most, every time (usually takes longer and isn't as reliable when people spawn outside the base). Yesterday it was 10 vs 10 and everyone was basing, 0 levis. I entered levi on private team and within 15 minutes it was 7 vs 7 with 5 levs total and only 1 team basing. Freq 0 won by default because freq 1 gave up and began to hunt me.

As long as you leave levs with L3's I can (and will) keep doing this. It's very simple to line up shot after shot that flies into base and hits FR walls from spawn. If you can't even CONSIDER removing levs then whenever I play and people are spawning in the base you should just assume the game will be killed (this literally has never failed). Levs have no place anymore in the way pub is played. They tk, force people to hunt them, and destroy the population (especially private freq LTs).

No more base terr for me and trying to even out teams, only levi until pub is dead.

(ZaBuZa)>sigh.. i been playing this game since i was 8... i am more mature then ull ever be...

This is walking before you can crawl stuff. If you do not know how Trenchwars Pub should be played, or how you/players want it played, how can you make any changes to the Leviathan, let alone any other setting? I did write Objectives for the zone many years ago, however I don't think they were taken seriously or adhered to, which is unfortunate because they would solve many problems.

Let's say basing is the primary 'fixture' of Public. You have to capture the flag with your team. Close private frequencies and keep Leviathans the same as they are. You would please many 'groups' by doing this. Warbirds can duel in the spawn area, LeviTerrs can still roam around and blast things apart (albeit everything won't be a blue dot anymore) and you would have people going for the flag. Instead of players buying 'PurePub', why don't players buy 'Private Frequencies'?

"What is it? Um . . . what do you want it to be?" óJuzba, Izzet tinker

Let's say basing is the primary 'fixture' of Public. You have to capture the flag with your team. Close private frequencies and keep Leviathans the same as they are. You would please many 'groups' by doing this. Warbirds can duel in the spawn area, LeviTerrs can still roam around and blast things apart (albeit everything won't be a blue dot anymore) and you would have people going for the flag. Instead of players buying 'PurePub', why don't players buy 'Private Frequencies'?

I could live with this and I normally play on private freq and some times make an impact on base when I want to base. That said I havent in the last well I cant member the last time I did a duel so yea please dont get rid of just where WB's just duel in pub imo I love being on private freq and having no one to back me up and everyone shooting at me its a thrill but one I and I think many others could give up if it helps the community at large.

I lev a lot, and my suggestion would be to disadvantage strictly the LTs. How? I would make the lev in an LT get kicked out of the LT with 0 energy every couple of minutes. This would make them easier to hunt and they would be forced to choose between only warping to safe or leaving the lev out vulnerable every 2 minutes.

In my view, the Lev should be made the 'defenceless cannon'. Greening one to 20 should be a genuinely difficult and rare event. Remove all of its items - repels/portals. Also, make the antiwarp energy drain for spider less severe, so LTs can be hunted easier. Currently LTs can just warp, warp, warp, warp, rep, warp. Any semi-proficient terrier can easily avoid death. It is only by virtue that few good players actually play LT that it isn't a more devastating combination.

Also, culturally-speaking, I think we should be moving pub towards being a 'training ground' for base and twd. Encouraging ways of playing that are more competitive. Levs are a huge hindrance to that. Lev bombs and bursts account for so many lame deaths that kill off advanced basing. Particularly now that, for many hours of the day, players can expect to be spawned *in base*. This makes items like bursts and rockets so intense, because players never have to use them in getting into base. They are used at a much faster rate in a much smaller area.

So my second suggestion is to make terrier bursts do lanc-bullet damage. A terr is not a 'fighting' ship, it is there to be attached to; there's no reason why it should have such a powerful weapon. If there are two terriers in a 6v6 game, majority of your deaths will be from unplanned burst. Most 'attachable' ships in other zones have no weaponry. If the terr had never had burst, and someone added it now, it would be seen as completely asymmetrical and unnecessary.

We need to reduce the number of random deaths in pub. This helps newbs as much as it helps vets. And it lends itself to more enlightened ways of playing.

Last edited by MHz; 01-13-2017 at 06:38 AM.

Tower> bangladesh contains 130million people in a space the size of louisiana
shaun> soupero lives in belgium
Tower> and they all live to 70
2pacZ> u know why
2pacZ> because they live fish
2pacZ> u moron tower

#1) -Energy, -recharge, -bomb fire cost, -bullet fire cost
I'd like to try them with half the energy and recharge they have now, but also half the fire cost for bombs and bullets. Essentially, everything would be miniaturized in proportion to energy. It would feel exactly the same as it does now in terms of how often you can fire and how long it takes to recharge from 0 to full. This means Levis could be 1-shot by Lancs, and if not at absolute 100% energy, 1-shot even by Spiders and Terrs. It would also make Javs a much greater risk for them, as well as TKs from other Levis on an LT. This does provide a disadvantage for solo Levs, of course. But keep in mind that no disadvantage was so great as having L2 bombs! And that most ships are still able to basically 1-shot Levs already, so that it's more what's in their bag of tricks (reps, rocket, port, well-timed bullets/bombs) that can keep them alive anyhow. Mainly this change would help Spiders and Terrs... And they're underplayed as it is, so incentivizing them isn't a bad thing.

I like this idea *a lot*. Remove all of its items, as well, bar 1 rep.

Tower> bangladesh contains 130million people in a space the size of louisiana
shaun> soupero lives in belgium
Tower> and they all live to 70
2pacZ> u know why
2pacZ> because they live fish
2pacZ> u moron tower