The topic title is very clear I think, do you see more elements in the hyborian age of Conan from the ancient history or from the feudal times? I tend to see it more ancient history inspired and if we take seriously the REH chronology this age was before the history of known world. Apart from the controversy about the aquiromans, some eastern kingdoms like Turan or southern like Zingara they are more medieval, but what about Stygia? or Argos? and what about Iranistan is inspired by the persian empire?

For I am the Bringer of War
I am The Bearer Of The Black Sword
and my name will be known to all
Lord Elric of the Bright Empire of Melnibone
The Dragonlord

"Did you deem yourself strong, because you were able to twist the heads off civilized folk, poor weaklings with muscles like rotten string? Hell! Break the neck of a wild Cimmerian bull before you call yourself strong. I did that, before I was a full-grown man...!" - Conan, in "Shadows in Zamboula", by Robert E. Howard"... you speak of Venarium familiarly. Perhaps you were there?""I was," grunted [Conan]. "I was one of the horde that swarmed over the hills. I hadn't yet seen fifteen snows, but already my name was repeated about the council fires." - "Beyond the Black River", by Robert E. Howard

I definitely think Hyboria as a whole is equivalent to the ancient world. I really like the similarities between the Vaenir and Vikings, which I guess would be more dark ages than anything. The cool part about Howard's world is that it seems to be a mixture of several different time periods.

maybe the dark ages are the most similar to the hyborian age in real world history

Not really. Not socially, politically or technologically. Are you trying to tie everything we know about the Hyborian Age (as far as the Thurian and Stygian continents are concerned) to one historical time period? That's a loser's game and not one that REH played, IMO.

While the topic title is quite clear, it's not very clear at all (IMO) what "ancient history" elements you're referring to. "Ancient History" (in regards to Europe, the Near East and the Middle East) was FAR from being one vast inchoate "blob" of history.

There were definite epochs and demarcations within the period that spanned the founding of Sumer and the fall of the (Western) Roman Empire. You're talking FOUR thousand years. The Dark Ages/Medieval/Renaissance periods only spanned about 1200yrs.

Also, are you sure your "thinking" is based on data from REH's yarns, or from your own "feelings"? You've admitted that the Marvel Comics renditions were a formative influence on your thinking in other threads.

What evidence from Robert E. Howard's own writings can you produce to weight the scales in favor of an "ancient history only" paradigm?

Not really. Not socially, politically or technologically. Are you trying to tie everything we know about the Hyborian Age (as far as the Thurian and Stygian continents are concerned) to one historical time period? That's a loser's game and not one that REH played, IMO.

Agreed. In various parts of the Hyborian world you have high medieval (verging on Renaissance) Europe, ancient Egypt, medieval Persian Caliphate, tribal Africa, etc. NOT some sort of average of all of them mixed together.

Edited by Ironhand, 01 December 2011 - 09:08 AM.

"Did you deem yourself strong, because you were able to twist the heads off civilized folk, poor weaklings with muscles like rotten string? Hell! Break the neck of a wild Cimmerian bull before you call yourself strong. I did that, before I was a full-grown man...!" - Conan, in "Shadows in Zamboula", by Robert E. Howard"... you speak of Venarium familiarly. Perhaps you were there?""I was," grunted [Conan]. "I was one of the horde that swarmed over the hills. I hadn't yet seen fifteen snows, but already my name was repeated about the council fires." - "Beyond the Black River", by Robert E. Howard

There definitely seems to be different stages of development co-existing in the same time frame in the Hyborian world, but then the same could be said of our own history to some extent.
Comparing the structures and societies of the great "civilized" nations of their day with their "barbarian" neighbours, it appears the Celtic tribes didn't change much over the centuries. They didn't build huge cities of stone and marble or produce great literature, architecture, philosophy mathematics etc (or at least they didn't write any of it down)
The hyborian world was (to my limited knowledge) entirely pagan or polythiest unlike ours, which had a huge impact in the medieval world.
Common ancient world history consists primarily of Europe and the Mediterranean.
If we look at more recent history during the discovery of the Americas or Australasia we see sticks and stones going up against steel plate and gunpowder.
The Hyborian world on the other hand is something of a Pangaea i.e. one massive super-continent. So it’s very plausible for nations from different epochs to co-exist (although generally not for very long!)

The topic title is very clear I think, do you see more elements in the hyborian age of Conan from the ancient history or from the feudal times? I tend to see it more ancient history inspired and if we take seriously the REH chronology this age was before the history of known world.

So, what relevance does that last part possess? If I take it correctly, you're saying that Conan's era should be "proto-Paleolithic" or something? Actually, there are indications that Howard's Thurian Age was MORE advanced in some respects than the Hyborian Age. REH doesn't seem to have seen history (at least, for fictional purposes) as being linear, but instead, as cyclical.

Once again, I'd like to see these "ancient history elements" presented (especially in the case of the western Hyborian nations) which outweigh the "feudal"/medieval elements.

There definitely seems to be different stages of development co-existing in the same time frame in the Hyborian world, but then the same could be said of our own history

Quite true.

If we look at more recent history during the discovery of the Americas or Australasia we see sticks and stones going up against steel plate and gunpowder.

There were rockets (and, presumably, gunpowder) during the lifetime of Conan. That is a simple and incontrovertible fact. Once again, something that blows the entire "Greco-Roman Paradigm" out of the water.

The data derived from only the writings by Robert E. Howard concerning the Hyborian Age simply will not support the "Greco-Roman Period" or the Bronze Age or the "Dark Ages" as the model for REH's Hyborian Age. When Howard's other tales (and poems and letters) are added in, the case against becomes overwhelming.

hehehe as Deuce says it's always cool and interesting discuss on REH Hyborian age, in Spain the few fans on internet discuss about the stories and the comics but not about the background and the correspondences or conections with history

Deuce:

I'd like to see these "ancient history elements" presented (especially in the case of the western Hyborian nations) which outweigh the "feudal"/medieval elements.

Althought is not an hyborian nation the most clear for me is Stygia, kind of a prepharaonic Egypt, and Argos a kind of combination of sea trade potencies of the mediterranean like Phoenicia, Greece or Carthago but of course I see the medieval influences for instance on Zingara, Turan, the north kingdoms... and Aquilonia and Nemedia, specially after reading The hour of the dragon but before that and before reading Howard only with the depictions of the Marvel comics I thought Aquilonia was the roman empire, the names, the supreme power in the west, Tarantia=Tarento... that depiction of Aquilonia in comics is the controversy about the aquiromans, isn't it?

Theagenes:

Don't forget 17th century buccaneers.

Howard had a lot of fun with deliberate anachonism. It's one the things that makes the Hyborian Age so interesting, imo.

And what about the aquilonian colonialists in the pictland? just like colonial North America in the XVIII century, a young spanish writer for the italian period of the Conan comics (Panini) was interested in develop some aspects of the hyborian world not very seen on comics like the relations between the aquilonian settlements and the tribes of picts, trade, negotiations, treaties...

Edited by ollonois, 01 December 2011 - 11:06 PM.

For I am the Bringer of War
I am The Bearer Of The Black Sword
and my name will be known to all
Lord Elric of the Bright Empire of Melnibone
The Dragonlord

I'd like to see these "ancient history elements" presented (especially in the case of the western Hyborian nations) which outweigh the "feudal"/medieval elements.--- Deuce

Althought is not an hyborian nation the most clear for me is Stygia, kind of a prepharaonic Egypt,--- Ollonois

First, I'll admit I wasn't being very exact in the above quote. Check the timestamp. VERY late at night.

What do you mean by "prepharaonic"?

I'm pretty sure that Theagenes, Ironhand and Taranaich call all attest to the fact that I have stated again and again and again on this forum that the "Known World" of the Hyborian Age can pretty easily be split into two "time zones". Western Shem, Stygia and Kush are in the "Ancient Near East" zone and basically everything else is in the "Medieval/Middle Ages" zone.

My use of those two terms is derived from Robert E. Howard. In letters to Lovecraft, REH proclaimed his three favorite periods of history. I've quoted the relevant passages numerous times all over this forum. If pressed, I can produce the exact quotes, but here is an accurate breakdown.

Howard's all-time favorite period (and place) of history was the "frontier" era of the American West (especially the Texan aspect).

REH's next favorite was "the Middle Ages" which he envisioned as a nearly unparalleled period of brawling, whoring and drunkenness.

The third-most favorite was the "ancient Near East", which REH basically placed from the rise of Sumer (see The House of Arabu) to the ***beginning*** (I simply can't stress that enough) of the Persian Empire under Cyrus/Kurush.

Again and again, I see REH fans bring their own preconceptions to Howard's works. That's fine. I did the same, early on. I think that beginning my fandom with The Book of Robert E. Howard (with its wide scope) gave me a bit of a head-start over those who began their fandom with REH's Conan (or worse, the pastiches). Even then, I had to revise several preconceptions once the pure Conan texts and the REH letters were published.

My interest in the Celts didn't really take hold until I had been reading Howard for several years. I was more interested in the "Classical" times up until college, when my readings of REH's historical adventures led me to a new appreciation of the Medieval period.

What Howard meant by "Medieval/Middle Ages" might NOT be what springs to your mind, Ollonois. REH's definition seems to encompass everything from the late 400s to the 1600s. In his Cormac Mac Art yarns, Rome is nothing but an ineffectual memory. According to Patrice Louinet, Howard considered Solomon Kane's time period (ca. 1600) as "medieval". Robert E. Howard's single and solitary conversion of a Conan tale was Swords of the Red Brotherhood, which is set sometime in the 1600s.

Time grows short and I need to go, but you might want to check out these threads, since many of the questions you've asked on this thread (and others) are addressed therein:

Sure, that's the kind of discussion I prefer on REH related subjects, more than Kim Kardashian or Arnold issues, it trascends the work of Howard itself and I think REH would be very proud of you, people on this forums, passionate with his works and history.

I was thinking on read the thread about Aquilonia, it looks very interesting, now I have the links to the other two and I have more or less located others about Ireland, vikings... I have read the thread about the celts and is a pity Painbrush was not between us, I clearly prefer the historical threads and the others about the conections between Hyboria and real world than those about pastiches or films adaptations...

Keep on doing the good job!!!

For I am the Bringer of War
I am The Bearer Of The Black Sword
and my name will be known to all
Lord Elric of the Bright Empire of Melnibone
The Dragonlord

I think REH would be very proud of you, people on this forums, passionate with his works and history.

I was thinking on read the thread about Aquilonia, it looks very interesting, now I have the links to the other two and I have more or less located others about Ireland, vikings... I have read the thread about the celts and is a pity Painbrush was not between us, I clearly prefer the historical threads and the others about the conections between Hyboria and real world than those about pastiches or films adaptations...

Keep on doing the good job!!!

Thanks for the kind words, Ollonois. To me, it's important to establish REH's intent (as much as can be discerned) not simply to help readers envision what Howard was describing, but also because some "preconceptions" are SO contrary to Howard's views that they distort the entire meaning of some yarns. I've seen this in regards to The Scarlet Citadel and The Hour of the Dragon.

I've decided to go ahead and answer some of your other points (sleeplessness notwithstanding).

and Argos a kind of combination of sea trade potencies of the mediterranean like Phoenicia, Greece or Carthago

Well, not really. Robert E. Howard basically never mentioned Phoenicia, Carthage or maritime Classical Greece in his tales or letters. The exceptions would be Delenda Est and Two Against Tyre.

No, what REH seems to have been interested in were the medieval Italian mariners. The Venetians are mentioned Red Blades of Black Cathay and then one sees them on center stage in Gates of Empire. In that yarn, the Venetians are attacked at sea by Muslim raiders. The result is almost a slapstick retelling of the sea battle in QotBC.Don't forget the doughty seaman of Pisa and Genoa. Columbus was Genovese.

of course I see the medieval influences for instance on Zingara, Turan

Zingara is medieval in the same sense that Elizabethan England was "medieval" to Howard.

Turan (during Conan's lifetime) is the Turkish Ottoman Empire. As simple as that. Not Seljuk. Not Parthian. Not Persian. Turan matches up in nearly every way in regards to how REH (and his model/mentor in that instance -- Harold Lamb) portrayed the Ottoman Empire.

Turan (during Conan's lifetime) is the Turkish Ottoman Empire. As simple as that. Not Seljuk. Not Parthian. Not Persian. Turan matches up in nearly every way in regards to how REH (and his model/mentor in that instance -- Harold Lamb) portrayed the Ottoman Empire.

In fact take the name of the Vilayet sea, vilayet was the name for the provinces of the ottoman empire

Deuce:

Zingara is medieval in the same sense that Elizabethan England was "medieval" to Howard.

In some website I read about the correspondence between Zingara and the expansionist Castille-Spain of the XVI century, really? Zingara is not really an expansionist potency, and REH only gave hints of other continent in the west

Deuce:

Robert E. Howard said he had virtually no interest in the Greeks (ie, "Classical Greeks") and admitted to HPL that he didn't know much about that entire era.

But this time period for writers and readers of historical fiction appears to be one of the more interesting and prolific

I feel the need to clarify something about Turan. I had compared it to Persia, and others have disagreed, comparing it to the Ottoman Empire. Now it occurs to me that people may have thought I was thinking of "classical" Persia, that was involved in wars with Greece and Alexander. I was actually thinking of the Medieval Persian Caliphate, perhaps during the time of the Crusades. In my mind, I was thinking of the Persia of The Arabian Nights.

But I see the Turkish connection: Vilayet, and the expansionist Turkish Empire that hammered at the gates of Vienna, perhaps comparing Yezdigerd to Suleiman the Magnificent.

I just wanted to clarify what I was thinking of.

Edited by Ironhand, 04 December 2011 - 10:41 AM.

"Did you deem yourself strong, because you were able to twist the heads off civilized folk, poor weaklings with muscles like rotten string? Hell! Break the neck of a wild Cimmerian bull before you call yourself strong. I did that, before I was a full-grown man...!" - Conan, in "Shadows in Zamboula", by Robert E. Howard"... you speak of Venarium familiarly. Perhaps you were there?""I was," grunted [Conan]. "I was one of the horde that swarmed over the hills. I hadn't yet seen fifteen snows, but already my name was repeated about the council fires." - "Beyond the Black River", by Robert E. Howard

I feel the need to clarify something about Turan. I had compared it to Persia, and others have disagreed, comparing it to the Ottoman Empire. Now it occurs to me that people may have thought I was thinking of "classical" Persia, that was involved in wars with Greece and Alexander. I was actually thinking of the Medieval Persian Caliphate, perhaps during the time of the Crusades. In my mind, I was thinking of the Persia of The Arabian Nights.

Ah, that clarifies things. Is this also part of the "legendary Persia" that you've posted about? Correct me if I'm wrong, but there was never a "Medieval Persian Caliphate". That's almost an oxymoron. The Persians refused to bow down to Arabic cultural/political/genetic hegemony. In order to be a khalif, one had to be of Arabic descent. It's a very simple equation. The Sassanid nobility (some of whom could trace their lineage back to Cyrus) were excluded. Saladin (a Kurd, not a descendent of Mohammed or his entourage) was only a "sultan", never a khalif.

Most (if not the majority) of the "Arabian" Nights tales you speak of were derived from Persian sources. However, the "Shahyar" of the tales, if he ever existed, appears to have been a Sassanid Zoroastrian, not a Muslim. The fact that he was a homocidal monster would play right into the pious hands of those who passed on the tales. "The Arabian Nights" tales were always looked down upon (sort of the "pulp" of their day). It took the efforts of Westerners to really popularize and codify them.

IMO, the Persians (in all of their varied personifications) are one of the most dynamic ethnic groups in the history of mankind (the historical Cimmerians were their close cousins). The Persians were a force to be reckoned with when Babylon still stood and they make other nations uneasy to this day. You can't say the same for Greece or Italy (other than their national debt). Iraq/Irak, despite being an Arabic/Semitic nation, derives its name from a Persian/Indo-European word. Arabic and ,especially, Turkish, possess hundreds of words derived from Persia.

None of that is here nor there when it comes to REH or Harold Lamb. In their tales, medieval Persia was a land of devious (and deadly) intriguers. The much-reduced dominion of the shahs was a "has-been/also-ran" compared to the Turks and Arabs of the MIddle Ages. Perhaps both authors should have considered the law of averages.

But I see the Turkish connection: Vilayet, and the expansionist Turkish Empire that hammered at the gates of Vienna, perhaps comparing Yezdigerd to Suleiman the Magnificent.

I just wanted to clarify what I was thinking of.

You're quite correct, Ironhand (though you only scratch the surface). Speaking of Vienna, here's an excerpt from Bernard Lewis, possibly the best Western commentator on Islam alive today:

"Iran was indeed Islamized, but it was not Arabized. Persians remained Persians. And after an interval of silence, Iran reemerged as a separate, different and distinctive element within Islam, eventually adding a new element even to Islam itself. Culturally, politically, and most remarkable of all even religiously, the Iranian contribution to this new Islamic civilization is of immense importance. The work of Iranians can be seen in every field of cultural endeavor, including Arabic poetry, to which poets of Iranian origin composing their poems in Arabic made a very significant contribution. In a sense, Iranian Islam is a second advent of Islam itself, a new Islam sometimes referred to as Islam-i Ajam. It was this Persian Islam, rather than the original Arab Islam, that was brought to new areas and new peoples: to the Turks, first in Central Asia and then in the Middle East in the country which came to be called Turkey, and of course to India. The Ottoman Turks brought a form of Iranian civilization to the walls of Vienna. A seventeenth-century Turkish visitor who went to Vienna as part of an Ottoman embassy, notes with curiosity that the language which they speak in Vienna is a corrupt form of Persian. He had of course observed the basic Indo-European kinship between Persian and German, and the fact that the Germans say ist and the Persians say ast, almost the same thing, for the verb "to be," present indicative third-person singular."