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Care about what? What is in Syria that we possibly we need to care about? .

Human beings. Innocent civilians. Children.

I don't understand why you engage in conversations like this. Yeah, you're selfish and utterly self-absorbed. You don't care about anything other than yourself, your country and your own ethnic group. You've made that clear. What are you hoping to get out of telling us this over and over? Does some small part of you feel bad about your total lack of empathy for other human beings? Does it make you feel better when other self-absorbed people express similar views? Less guilty about not caring? Or is the concept of caring about someone other than yourself so alien to you that you honestly can't grasp it all? Are you, perhaps, legitimately baffled by why anyone at all cares about Syria because you just can't even imagine how someone could care about fellow human beings?

I actually enjoyed this thread a lot though, so thanks for that. You reminded me of why I do care, why I should care, and inspired me to always try to care more. Because I could fall quite easily into the trap of thinking like you and I don 't want to be that.

“Today a young man on acid realized that all matter is merely energy condensed to a slow vibration, that we are all one consciousness experiencing itself subjectively, there is no such thing as death, life is only a dream, and we are the imagination of ourselves.” – Bill Hicks

This is so fucked up... he used it against civilians. Civilians. Like you and me. His people.

People care because the use of chemical weapons is considered a crime against humanity. That's simple.

Also, Eary and Moto, it so happens that France is with the US on this. Moto, I'll let you do your French bashing and you'll probably be right. France can't go alone. It's not Mali...

I am not in favor of a war but we need to do something. Since it is a crime against humanity in several international texts and that there are proof that Bachar Al Assad did it, I think the intervention should aim at bringing him to an international Court.

I am tired of people being so self-centered on their own country and their own problem : " oh my god, there are so much important things like the strike of fast-food workers !". Don't get me wrong, it is important but so is this. We live in a WORLD. Not in a country. If someone starts using chemical weapons against its people and the powerful countries do nothing, then where's the limit ? Don't believe you're safe just because you live in a democracy. Nobody is safe from a crazy person wanting power.

No, we don't.

And the majority of French people do not want to have anything whatsoever to do with this. Which explains why our dear president is taking so much heat right now he's going to spontaneously combust!

Oh, and Moscow does not really want to intervene, either.http://fr.news.yahoo.com/moscou-infl...173949092.html
Note that this is technically an article detailing Putin's stance, yet you'll find such comments as "Hollande is the worst calamity that has ever befallen Frenchmen".

They say the Russkies even suspect that chemical weapons were used for the sole purpose of getting other countries involved.
Certainly, politicking is at play there, but still I think charity begins at home and we'd be better advised to mind our own fucking business. There are enough domestic problems as it is without throwing our men and our money left, right and centre. When I say "our" money... Any money we've got is directly borrowed from the Chinese. But the men who would be sacrificing their lives would certainly be French.
Hey, come to think of it, here's an idea. Why don't you fucking put your money where your mouth is and go there to like, solve the situation a little bit? Huh? Damn it all. Isn't it easy to just sit there and claim we should do this and that, brandishing human rights and claiming the world is one big country. Bollocks. It is, but in quite another sense. Be prepared for a third world war if Hollande so much as moves one chubby finger of his.

Hey, come to think of it, here's an idea. Why don't you fucking put your money where your mouth is and go there to like, solve the situation a little bit? Huh?

Maria, be nice. Most of us are not directly able to solve any of the problems in the world. That doesn't mean we shouldn't care or have opinions. Since this is somewhat of a legal matter and Harley is a lawyer her opinion should be welcomed. You don't have to agree but please, don't be crass. It's just not you.

Besides, this thread is not about whether or not other countries should be forcefully involving themselves in Syria. It's about MOTO being unable to understand why anyone cares about people who are different than themselves. It's about why we should care at least a little when something horrific occurs to fellow human beings.

I have no idea if military intervention would be right or not. But on some small level I at least feel for the suffering of the people over there. MOTO doesn't, and that is literally what this thread is about.

“Today a young man on acid realized that all matter is merely energy condensed to a slow vibration, that we are all one consciousness experiencing itself subjectively, there is no such thing as death, life is only a dream, and we are the imagination of ourselves.” – Bill Hicks

I actually enjoyed this thread a lot though, so thanks for that. You reminded me of why I do care, why I should care, and inspired me to always try to care more. Because I could fall quite easily into the trap of thinking like you and I don 't want to be that.

Ok...you care. That's all well and good. Hope you feel better about yourself. Go join the fucking Red Cross. I inspire lots of people, so thank you for seeing the light finally. Nobody likes seeing innocent people butchered and gassed by their own country. Nobody like seeing kids slaughtered through no fault of their own. But eventually there comes a tipping point where enough is enough. The people of their own country have to take care of themselves or they will die apparently. The US, Britain and France can't save everyone. The middle east, by any standard of human decency, is a cesspool of shit. To be quite honest, why it is even allowed to exist or even recongnized by the UN is mind numbing. The house should be cleaned. You see dead kids...I do too. In some way I see dead future terrorists. I am sick and tired of Americans (military) being butured and blown up by people who not only don't care about the US, hell, they don't care about their own country or people. Their fucking "soldiers" hide in schools, churches, hospitals and civilian areas. I say let Syria take care of Syria. If they step out of line and mess with the rest of the world, extint it. There is no saving the middle east when they don't even have the basic decency to care about their own people.

I'm not being crass. Her opinion is her own and reflects only a minority of Frenchmen's views, yet her tone implies the contrary. That wanted correcting. Likewise, she says "we need to do something" and I reply "no, thank you very much." She claims "there are proof" [sic] that this is a crime against humanity and I reply that there is no incontrovertible evidence. She claims that this state of affairs is not right and I reply, let her do something about it other than shoot her mouth off.

So there.

And MOTO isn't the callous, frigid idiot you're making himself out to be. Come on. That's a laugh.

And yes, if you DO care, then by all means, do some on-the-ground job or something. All talk, talk, talk and no show doesn't carry any weight, really.

P.S.: legal matter? LEGAL matter? And here I was, thinking you were appealing to our sense of human decency! There go your lovely human rights down the hatch. This is just a legal matter, let's get down to the paperwork!

legal matter? LEGAL matter? And here I was, thinking you were appealing to our sense of human decency! There go your lovely human rights down the hatch. This is just a legal matter, let's get down to the paperwork!

I said "somewhat" of a legal matter. It was merely an aside. Forget I mentioned it, it's between you and Harley.

Originally Posted by Duskygrin

And MOTO isn't the callous, frigid idiot you're making himself out to be. Come on. That's a laugh.

I don't believe I've ever said he was frigid or an idiot. But callous? Yes, very much so. Most of his input on this bbs is to criticize "bleeding heart liberals" and he constantly tells us how he doesn't care about anyone who isn't in his own demographic. He has admitted to not caring about anything that happens outside America and willfully embraces ignorance of world issues. I've known so many Americans just like him and they depress me. MOTO and those like him can believe what they like, of course, but on a forum such as this I'm likely to challenge those beliefs because I hold different beliefs. And I honestly don't understand why he comes here with his rather fascist ideology and tries to confront or convert the members with it. Again, I don't oppose him doing it, but it puzzles me and I will challenge him on it.

Originally Posted by Duskygrin

And yes, if you DO care, then by all means, do some on-the-ground job or something. All talk, talk, talk and no show doesn't carry any weight, really.

I never said I personally care all that much. I don't hold myself up as an example of a "good person". I only said that I care to some degree. MOTO, on the other hand, does not care, does not understand why anyone cares, does not understand why the middle east is allowed to exist and seems to be in favour of genocide on a scale possibly never before seen in human history. You...really don't think he's callous?

Originally Posted by MOTO13

Nobody likes seeing innocent people butchered and gassed by their own country. Nobody like seeing kids slaughtered through no fault of their own. But eventually there comes a tipping point where enough is enough. The people of their own country have to take care of themselves or they will die apparently. The US, Britain and France can't save everyone.

That would be a fair and reasonable perspective if you had just said it earlier and left it at that. Unfortunately...

Originally Posted by MOTO13

The middle east, by any standard of human decency, is a cesspool of shit. To be quite honest, why it is even allowed to exist or even recongnized by the UN is mind numbing. The house should be cleaned. You see dead kids...I do too. In some way I see dead future terrorists. I am sick and tired of Americans (military) being butured and blown up by people who not only don't care about the US, hell, they don't care about their own country or people. Their fucking "soldiers" hide in schools, churches, hospitals and civilian areas. I say let Syria take care of Syria. If they step out of line and mess with the rest of the world, extint it. There is no saving the middle east when they don't even have the basic decency to care about their own people.

This is just such a load of hate and rage filled ignorance. "Allowed to exist"? Are you serious? I'm not certain with you. I used to think you simply made use of extreme hyperbole but I've been thinking for a while now you may literally mean all this.

I get that you're angry, I really do. But it's so misplaced. Your soldiers that get killed and maimed only get killed and maimed because they are in places they aren't wanted. What would you do if America was invaded? Would you behave any differently? Well, we wouldn't see so many suicide bombers, but just watch Red Dawn if you need some ideas. When you are invaded you fight the invader. The terrorists who have attacked the US, men like Bin Laden, are simply criminals. They don't represent any country, race or religion. Yet all people from the middle east have suffered, all Muslims have suffered, possibly even all brown people regardless of actual heritage have in some way suffered due to American retaliation when only a handful of people were actually guilty.

The cesspool of shit, as you called it, is caused by many factors. A lot of them come from Western meddling. Britain arbitrarily changing borders back when the British Empire owned the whole damn world, without thought or concern for established boundaries and ethnic zones for example. America funding people like Saddam resulting in countless deaths, then starting wars to remove him resulting in countless more deaths. A whole lot of meddling. And now, the middle east has such a history of violence that it's stuck in this vicious circle with no apparent end. How can it end? If someone blew up my family I'd dedicate my life to blowing up their people too. Possibly. And I like to think I'm fairly reasonable. Do you not think you'd behave similarly under similar conditions?

And yeah, I'll freely admit I used to sometimes think along the same lines as you. That the whole damn area should just be "cleansed". That they're basically just animals. I'm really ashamed of that now, but I was younger then and horribly ignorant. They're people, just like me and you, and they need help from those more fortunate than themselves so maybe they can one day live in the sort of place that we take for granted.

I don't know how to help them. I don't have any answers. I'm a nobody and there's nothing special about me in the slightest. But I know your hateful attitude is wrong and I hope you grow out of it like I did.

“Today a young man on acid realized that all matter is merely energy condensed to a slow vibration, that we are all one consciousness experiencing itself subjectively, there is no such thing as death, life is only a dream, and we are the imagination of ourselves.” – Bill Hicks

It is indeed my opinion and just my opinion. I don't do international law so the fact that I'm a lawyer is not really relevant here. But thanks PIB, I still apreciate it

However, maybe as someone who studied law and does law everyday, it makes me believe in it no matter what.

What Bachar Al-Assad did, and the evidence seems pretty convincing to me, falls under the definition of a Crime against Humanity. But as for every interesting notion, there is no precise definition of what a Crime against Humanity is. It's one of these "you know one when you see one" thing.

Dusky, if you read my first message, you must have read that I wasn't in favor of going to war. I am in favor of an intervention though. Note that bringing Bachar Al Assad to the International Penal Court is not a solution that has been given by anyone.

That is what makes me angry. After the 2nd world war, everybody was swearing "never again, people should not die for nothing, let's vote a law, create a court and sign a treaty saying that countries can't break human rights again this much". But when the time comes to apply it, it's all diplomatical, and nobody wants to apply it.

First rule of law is that you must apply it. If you don't, it has no value whatsoever.

As for the fact that France ISN'T with the US on this, I thought we were talking countries as a diplomatical entity, not public opinion. The opinion in the US is not in favor of going either. I haven't read the paper yet but unless Hollande changed his mind, we were still with the US on this yesterday.

Also, when it comes to the public opinion, let's be careful. If I had been asked in the street if I was in favor of Hollande going to war against Syria, I would have said no. If I had been asked if I was in favor of a reaction, I'd have said yes.

I have to say this one last thing too : Opinion was not in favor of an intervention in Mali either. But that was actually a success. And you wouldn't say it wasn't necessary, would you ? Of course, the comparison stops there because France helped the legitimate gouvernment in that case.

The problem is, in my opinion, that it's too late just to do some punitive and ponctual bombing. it's been 2 weeks since the gas was used. The message it sends is "well, if you do it again, we'll discuss and discuss and discuss before deciding if it's worth it to do something".

I do not think we s/b engaging in any military action in Syria and most people I think agree with this...but apparently we are. We have no interest in this area. No national threat...no security interest. We have a dictator who a couple years ago was being meet and greeted by the liberal western world, then he decides to kill his own people. Probably some Russian influence going on here. How do you intervene/reason with a country that willfully kills its own people? Children..women...civilians??? These people are fucking nuts. This is nothing new in the middle east either. The actions of Asswad s/b cimes against humanity and he should be executed.

After all, when the Chinese butchered the Tibetans, we politely stood aside, when Turkey massacred the Armenians we diligently consigned it under a "genocide" entry - and felt pretty smug about it - and when Saddam went on a rampage we didn't bat an eyelid.
When I say "we", I mean "they", the government. Naturally.

For life of me, why we are even beginning to think about intervening in this shit hole astounds me. As usual, Obama shot off his fucking mouth and drew a line in the sand for no reason. Well, the line was crossed...and pissed on by Syria. Now, as usual, Obama has his head up his ass and wants congress to take the fall if (when) we get involved by approving military action. Seriously, does anyone care what happens in Syria or see one reason we (USA) should get involved?

It wasn't for no reason though was it, it was partially an attempt to prevent chemical weapons being used on innocent people. Jesus, talk about oversimplification.