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If many more flavorful units were added into the game for each affinity combination, I also hope each player would have to declare their affinity officially once enough levels are obtained. Doing so locks out the other pure/hybrid affinity units from being trained.

Maybe switching affinities costs diplomatic capital, and increases a lot as your affinity levels increase. Also, existing units trained of a different affinity flavor receive a big penalty, similar to the one when you don't have enough strategic resources to support them.

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Also, if psionics were added to the game in the next expansion, what type of special psionic-unit would you imagine for each pure/hybrid affinity?

If many more flavorful units were added into the game for each affinity combination, I also hope each player would have to declare their affinity officially once enough levels are obtained. Doing so locks out the other pure/hybrid affinity units from being trained.

Maybe switching affinities costs diplomatic capital, and increases a lot as your affinity levels increase. Also, existing units trained of a different affinity flavor receive a big penalty, similar to the one when you don't have enough strategic resources to support them.

- - - - - - - -

Also, if psionics were added to the game in the next expansion, what type of special psionic-unit would you imagine for each pure/hybrid affinity?

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Thanks Barathor. I really tried to pursue theme over anything else.

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I've stated it elsewhere, where I believe that Affinity should be made a part of as many of the systems as possible. It should be an axis upon which the game spins. I agree that there should come a point where you must "declare" your affinity. If nothing else it would be much more thematic and from a 4X standpoint, that would be a tough call. I'm of the opinion that Hybrids should give other leaders split opinions of you.

So if you went P+S:

Purity would have concerns about you, Supremacy would have concerns about you, S+H or H+P would really not like you, while Harmony would hate your guts. So the farther away you go from your declared affinity on the affinity wheel the stronger the disrespect value.

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I think that giving other units a penalty would mitigate the "wishy-washy" supplementary feeling of the Hybrids and force you to play 1 affinity. Personally ,I see nothing wrong with what you're suggesting, but it would require the system to shift to support it. Affinities need more oomph behind them to make them more unique.

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If psionics were added as one of the next major mechanics of the game, it would require a major overhaul of what I have here.

As of right now, I think only Harmony and its hybrids are poised for psionics. (Maybe Purity). You would have to spin some sort of Psionic enabled robot, which wouldn't be too hard but would require extensive "lore" and mechanical overhauling.

@Barathor, After giving it some thought I have come up with "sources" that would power each of the affinity's psionics:

Harmony: Being in tune with the planet is able to tap into the planet's hive-mind, shaping the raw power of nature into a powerful psychic powers.

Ascendancy (Harmony/Purity): The Harmony+Purity Hybrid elevates their citizens with powerful genetic engineering, psionics are rather rampant in their society. They've even gone so far as to create an artificial psychic construct. (Think of the Protoss Khala from the Starcraft universe.)

Purity: Purity's psionic powers come from sheer force of will. Those of Purity that can utilize the power of Psionics are highly disciplined. The power comes from the individuals and the memetic wave of their convictions.

Mastery (Purity/Supremacy): For the Purity+Supremacy Hybrid, the humans generate the psionic energy to power and control their robotic servants. Psionic energy is merely another tool. Society

Supremacy: The line between man and machine doesn't exist to Supremacy. The same goes for the line between technology and mind. Supremacy has discoverd the "science" behind psionics and can replicate it through machinery and AI. They artificially produce brainwaves strong enough to induce particle phenomenon and managed to make robots that utilize this wavelength.

Voracity/Audacity (Supremacy/Harmony): The combination of Harmony and Supremacy, this Hybrid uses artificial structures and devices (Psionic Resonators) to harness the power of the planet's hivemind as opposed to the "organic" psionics of Harmony or the artificial psi-wave of Supremacy.

I've stated it elsewhere, where I believe that Affinity should be made a part of as many of the systems as possible. It should be an axis upon which the game spins. I agree that there should come a point where you must "declare" your affinity. If nothing else it would be much more thematic and from a 4X standpoint, that would be a tough call.

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Yeah, I just think it would be great to have maps filled with up to six different, fully-fledged affinity styles for each faction, from their cities and improvements to their units, all as united strong themes -- less dilution. I want each faction to be a vibrant color instead of everybody being a messy brownish swirl. It would be much cooler to see a massive porcelain white army of all different kinds of "Mastery" style units instead of having P+S base units supplemented with Battlesuits, SABR's, Xeno Cavalry, a couple of Nanohives, and a Throne or two.

Plus, it would be easier to design the units for each affinity if other affinities units become locked-out. Now, you can have multiple tankish shock-style troops, multiple healer/support types, etc. with just a slight bit of unique flair without having to worry about stepping on the toes of another unit from a different affinity and making a somewhat extraneous unit.

I'm of the opinion that Hybrids should give other leaders split opinions of you.

So if you went P+S:

Purity would have concerns about you, Supremacy would have concerns about you, S+H or H+P would really not like you, while Harmony would hate your guts. So the farther away you go from your declared affinity on the affinity wheel the stronger the disrespect value.

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I totally agree with that. Before RT came out, I remember a discussion about how diplomacy wouldn't work well if the hybrids were more like complete affinities -- "Six affinities instead of three; everybody would hate each other!". I argued that it didn't have to be "we match"/"we don't match", but instead you would still use the three primaries to weigh opinions. I would actually take it further and also weight the amount of levels in each affinity. So, using your example, a Purity player would not have as much concern with a P+S player weighted more towards the Purity side.

I think that giving other units a penalty would mitigate the "wishy-washy" supplementary feeling of the Hybrids and force you to play 1 affinity. Personally ,I see nothing wrong with what you're suggesting, but it would require the system to shift to support it. Affinities need more oomph behind them to make them more unique.

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I assumed you were leaning more towards complete hybrid affinities with all the extra units, titles, etc. Six fully unique styles instead of only three supplemented with some hybrids. Yeah, a lot of the other systems would need to be updated to support a change like that.

@Barathor, After giving it some thought I have come up with "sources" that would power each of the affinity's psionics:

Harmony: Being in tune with the planet is able to tap into the planet's hive-mind, shaping the raw power of nature into a powerful psychic powers.

Ascendancy (Harmony/Purity): The Harmony+Purity Hybrid elevates their citizens with powerful genetic engineering, psionics are rather rampant in their society. They've even gone so far as to create an artificial psychic construct. (Think of the Protoss Khala from the Starcraft universe.)

Purity: Purity's psionic powers come from sheer force of will. Those of Purity that can utilize the power of Psionics are highly disciplined. The power comes from the individuals and the memetic wave of their convictions.

Mastery (Purity/Supremacy): For the Purity+Supremacy Hybrid, the humans generate the psionic energy to power and control their robotic servants. Psionic energy is merely another tool. Society

Supremacy: The line between man and machine doesn't exist to Supremacy. The same goes for the line between technology and mind. With machines and implants, Supremacy has managed to artificially produce brainwaves strong enough to induce particle phenomenon and managed to make robots that utilize this wavelength.

Voracity/Audacity (Supremacy/Harmony): The combination of Harmony and Supremacy, this Hybrid uses artificial structures and devices (Psionic Resonators) to harness the power of the planet's hivemind as opposed to the "organic" psionics of Harmony or the artificial psi-wave of Supremacy.

That's all I have for now.

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Those are great! Especially Supremacy; that's definitely a tricky one. Another explanation could maybe be that they discover the "science" behind psionics and can replicate it through machinery and AI. Maybe a strong specialization of psionics for them would be force fields and their unique psionic unit focuses in that and generates them in some way. That could maybe be palatable enough for players.

Another way to lean would be through mind control or emotions (like fear, nightmares, etc.)... something biological units would be more vulnerable to instead of their own machines. A bit like a reverse EMP that the bios use against the machines, haha. Though, at the same time, I think there are already enough options that Supremacy can use against biological units instead of going through the trouble of these specialized psionic abilities.

Yeah, I just think it would be great to have maps filled with up to six different, fully-fledged affinity styles for each faction, from their cities and improvements to their units, all as united strong themes -- less dilution. I want each faction to be a vibrant color instead of everybody being a messy brownish swirl. It would be much cooler to see a massive porcelain white army of all different kinds of "Mastery" style units instead of having P+S base units supplemented with Battlesuits, SABR's, Xeno Cavalry, a couple of Nanohives, and a Throne or two.

Plus, it would be easier to design the units for each affinity if other affinities units become locked-out. Now, you can have multiple tankish shock-style troops, multiple healer/support types, etc. with just a slight bit of unique flair without having to worry about stepping on the toes of another unit from a different affinity and making a somewhat extraneous unit.

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This is making me want Hybrid cities and leader art again. Adding a dedicated support unit would be interesting, but it would again require a rethink of how the affinities handle situations and make sure they don't start blurring. Even with just my additions, things are getting hard for me to keep track of. I haven't even come up with perk ideas for Hybrid Artillery, Submarines, Carriers, and Tacjets.

I do think that lock-out is becoming a more attractive idea.

I totally agree with that. Before RT came out, I remember a discussion about how diplomacy wouldn't work well if the hybrids were more like complete affinities -- "Six affinities instead of three; everybody would hate each other!". I argued that it didn't have to be "we match"/"we don't match", but instead you would still use the three primaries to weigh opinions. I would actually take it further and also weight the amount of levels in each affinity. So, using your example, a Purity player would not have as much concern with a P+S player weighted more towards the Purity side.

I assumed you were leaning more towards complete hybrid affinities with all the extra units, titles, etc. Six fully unique styles instead of only three supplemented with some hybrids. Yeah, a lot of the other systems would need to be updated to support a change like that.

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I don't like the idea of weighting hybrids toward one of their parent cores. It just doesn't sit well with me. But I do think that the current system is kind of dumb. And you get weird things like both Purity Kavitha and Harmony Elodie yelling at me because my affinity choice (which flips between Harmony and Purity due to research) when I'm going Harmony+Purity.

[DarthSidiousVoice]Good... GOOOOOOOD...[/DarthSidiousVoice]

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There is so much Star Wars on the internet right now, I love it.

Those are great! Especially Supremacy; that's definitely a tricky one. Another explanation could maybe be that they discover the "science" behind psionics and can replicate it through machinery and AI. Maybe a strong specialization of psionics for them would be force fields and their unique psionic unit focuses in that and generates them in some way. That could maybe be palatable enough for players.

Another way to lean would be through mind control or emotions (like fear, nightmares, etc.)... something biological units would be more vulnerable to instead of their own machines. A bit like a reverse EMP that the bios use against the machines, haha. Though, at the same time, I think there are already enough options that Supremacy can use against biological units instead of going through the trouble of these specialized psionic abilities.

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I think what you've written is the more clear way of saying what I had intended. Although, with neural uploading, they could get to the point where they have human minds inside robotic bodies performing psionics. Either way, the point I was trying to make with Supremacy is that their powers are the most "artificial" of the 6.

With Purity+Supremacy's specialization in defense and siege, I think that they would be more inclined to have psionically induced kinetic shielding over Supremacy Prime.

I still need a bit more justification with Purity+Supremacy's origin. The structure makes sense to me, but the true source eludes me.

I think, rather than adding more units, the game should focus on balancing and rationalizing the units that do exist - if you accept that the game's fundamental design isn't going to change, then you know the obvious balance issues that should be addressed in BE wrt ranged units, orbitals, and so on.

Something like Planetfall's ability-promo slots (that mod's attempt to mimic the unit workshop in (SMAC) could add a lot of variety to melee armies, on top of or in place of the current affinity promos. I think the game would work better if high-affinity units weren't so dominant, and instead higher affinity gives a slight combat boost but additional perks. Teaching the AI to use this system could be problematic (but then I believe that the game's AI can't be fixed until the core mechanics are fixed - it's a wonder that the AI plays with them as well as it does).

At least in base BE, I tend to use standard units far more than uniques, aside from LEV tanks. I don't see this as necessarily a bad thing, for Supremacy their uniques are garbage but they get the best perks for basic units. Harmony's techs (at least to me) are easier to access, and xenomass has the best yield for strategic resources... I guess Xeno Cavs are okay melee blockers, if someone can reach Harmony 7 soon enough.

I think, rather than adding more units, the game should focus on balancing and rationalizing the units that do exist - if you accept that the game's fundamental design isn't going to change, then you know the obvious balance issues that should be addressed in BE wrt ranged units, orbitals, and so on.

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Not to be inflammatory, but I don't know what you mean when you say "rationalize" in this instance.

I'm not attempting to "ignore" the situation with the existing units, my goal (as I outlined) was trying to purse an avenue to try distinguish the affinities from one another. As for fundamental design, I don't see the core of Civ BE's mechanics changing until the turn of Civ VI.

As a sidenote, my personal take on the whole ranged unit issue comes down to a matter of the Civ V board scale if the "grain" of the playable area was more fine, I think that it would allow better scaling and therefore balancing. But meaningful conversation about that topic is beyond my skill level.

Something like Planetfall's ability-promo slots (that mod's attempt to mimic the unit workshop in (SMAC) could add a lot of variety to melee armies, on top of or in place of the current affinity promos.

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I'll have to take a look at that. What concerns me is due to Civ V's nature, is there such a thing as too much microscale customization? On the other hand, if you do pursue the route of increased small scale customization, it could open opportunities to tie into the affinities.

I think the game would work better if high-affinity units weren't so dominant, and instead higher affinity gives a slight combat boost but additional perks.

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I understand what you mean from a mechanical standpoint, but I fear that pursuing the methodology that you're proposing here would lead because it sounds like it would trivialize the "extremity" and deviation between the affinities. The whole point of my post here was to suggest things to increase diversity and celebrate the fantasies of the affinities.

At least in base BE, I tend to use standard units far more than uniques, aside from LEV tanks. I don't see this as necessarily a bad thing, for Supremacy their uniques are garbage but they get the best perks for basic units. Harmony's techs (at least to me) are easier to access, and xenomass has the best yield for strategic resources... I guess Xeno Cavs are okay melee blockers, if someone can reach Harmony 7 soon enough.

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I'm pretty sure that's meant to be the case. I've always viewed the Unique Affinity units as "power multipliers". They are units that are supposed to be designed in a way that makes them good at one thing that will give you an advantage is specific scenarios. They are not intended to be the bulk of your army.

How about a throwback to Civ 2. A diplomat/spy like unit. Or maybe a Special Forces A-Team unit. It certainly would require some balancing, but it would be a stealth unit, that could sneak into the enemy's territory and destroy key buildings, production, or cripple units. Cities with more intrigue would be more hurt by these, and those with lower and with surveillance webs, would do better.

Special abilities

Landmines.

Spy drone that can allow player to see that an enemy unit was seeing, to be removed when that unit enters a city with a surveillance web.

Xenobeacon, similar to a xenosiren. allows aliens to swarm an enemy position.

Retreat, good for civilizations on the defense. takes movement away from unit for one turn.

How about a throwback to Civ 2. A diplomat/spy like unit. Or maybe a Special Forces A-Team unit. It certainly would require some balancing, but it would be a stealth unit, that could sneak into the enemy's territory and destroy key buildings, production, or cripple units. Cities with more intrigue would be more hurt by these, and those with lower and with surveillance webs, would do better.

Special abilities

Landmines.

Spy drone that can allow player to see that an enemy unit was seeing, to be removed when that unit enters a city with a surveillance web.

Xenobeacon, similar to a xenosiren. allows aliens to swarm an enemy position.

Retreat, good for civilizations on the defense. takes movement away from unit for one turn.

And then there could be a spy like unit that

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These are rather interesting ideas. Funny you should bring up Civ II as to my understanding, SMAC was built using the Civ II engine.

It would be like reintroducing Alpha Centauri "Probe Teams". Which I admit is a novel idea. My only concern is how it will affect the existing espionage system. While it isn't the greatest, there is still the mater of transitioning it to fit given ARC and Chung-Su's perks.

As with everything else I would like to tie this unit to affinity as well.

Hello!
First off, I'm sorry if this is thread necromancy; I'm new here.

At any rate, I have an Ascendancy unit I would like to propose, the Helios.
Unlocked at 5/5 (Assuming the Throne got pushed), the Helios is a specialized ranged unit.
It costs 2 Xenomass and 1 Floatstone.
At base level, it has 18 strength and 22 ranged strength. Seems pretty basic.
It has two main passives, though:
-Must set up
-Double damage from flat terrain

So it's meant to fill a specialized support role, and be a good source of damage, considering the hybrids have no real ranged-specialized units.

I don't personally mind the resurrection. I don't know how the mods feel about it

I've always felt that the Hybrid Uniques were meant to be more like force amplifiers than the actual brunt of your military force. I really like my spread for Harmony/Purity's Unique Units. So I don't know if I'll be adding any more.

That being said... I still have the entire list of basic unit upgrades that don't have ANY perks upgrades. Even their names are tentative lists.

Land

Soldier > Marine > Champion

Gunner > Ranger > Kodiak

Combat Rover > Armor > Gladiator

Missile Rover > Artillery > Triumph

Explorer > Paragon

Air

Tacjet > Needle Jet > Glory

Sea

Patrol Boat > Cutter > Argo

Gunboat > Cruiser > Mako

Submarine > Tidehunter > Trojan

Carrier > Consul

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I do like the idea of the Helios and I think that it fits into the motif I tried to capture with the Hybrid: Terrain control and defensible specialists. Perhaps, it could replace the "Triumph" Tier 3/4? Artillery unit.

I would like to propose not new unit, but a small addition to existing one. Sorry if this has already been proposed. Add Intercept command to Missile Rover, exactly like Tacjet's interception, but limited by Missile Rover's range. So army marching across a large landmass will have some AA protection, cities garrisoned by Missile Rovers will be more resistant to air strikes, and otherwise underused (IMHO) artillery will be more useful.

First of all, these are really good units. Well done!
I do have a few things to suggest though:Harmony

Spoiler:

-Maybe move the Cloudbloom to Alien Ecology? I dunno, since it's kinda of based off native flora and Alien Eco. is also closer to the harmony side of the web.
-A new naval unit, the Kappa.
-Moderate strength (perhaps ~25-30)
-Around 6 Harmony, unlocked at Alien Hybridization
-2 move, also amphibious, but slower on land, like the Makara
-Passive: If a Kappa kills a naval vessel, instead of destroying it, it leaves a shell ship behind. Other boats can then move next to it, and "board" it, for the cost of HP; like leashing.

Supremacy

Spoiler:

-Put the ORCL at Artificial Intelligence
-A new naval vessel, the Remote Uplink Ship (Needs a better acronym)
-Low strength, no attack
-Around 6 Supremacy, unlocked at Orbital Networks
-3 to 4 Move
-Boosts the damage of nearby units by ~10%
-Doubles the effects of orbiting TacNet Hubs (I would add all unit-boosting sats, but that's the only one that does) {Brings the bonus to +40% Strength and Ranged, and 10 HP heal per turn}

Ascendancy

Spoiler:

-You could put the Thunderhead at Tissue Engineering. (Though I feel as if it isn't quite suited for Ascendancy, mostly cause their theme is improving the human body; but it's a really cool unit)
-The whole Helios unit
-A suggestion for a new Tacjet name: the Valkyrie.

Voracity

Spoiler:

-First off, Aquilon was misspelled. Just a minor error, just trying to help.
-You could call the Submarine the Omen. Fits with the theme of Subs and Voracity, I think.
-New naval unit, though I'm not sure what to call it.
-Metamaterials
-Super weak (like Explorer weak)
-Is permanently invisible. So, the ultimate scout.
-Splash can still damage it, or just guessing where it is.

Maybe move the Cloudbloom to Alien Ecology? I dunno, since it's kinda of based off native flora and Alien Eco. is also closer to the harmony side of the web.

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The "sidedness" of the Affinities in the tech web is kind of moot, with how spread out some of the techs are. For the Cloudbloom was trying to find a place that was relatively early, and that fell into a Harmony tech. It also helps lead you towards Designer Lifeforms for the Rocktopus... still not sure it should be that deep.

Put the ORCL at Artificial Intelligence, one of the other conditions that I set for the Units is to follow the general trend of having Unique units be under a leaf tech. With Artificial Intelligence, its a branch tech and futher still, Synthetic Thought unlocks the SABR and I don't want to "stack" the unlocks like that.

Ascendancy
You could put the Thunderhead at Tissue Engineering. (Though I feel as if it isn't quite suited for Ascendancy, mostly cause their theme is improving the human body; but it's a really cool unit)
-The whole Helios unit
-A suggestion for a new Tacjet name: the Valkyrie.

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Ascendancy is probably the Affinity I've put the most work into. The Thunderhead, as stated in the Pedia entry, is definitely not a normal unit for the Affinity. It was a thought experiment (maybe part of a bet) its more about them playing god as well as an excuse to make a living breathing dragon from legend. Hyperconductors right now is due to the massive amount of Bioelectricity this this generates. But its so deep in the web that I'm not confident it would see play.

-First off, Aquilon was misspelled. Just a minor error, just trying to help.

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... Damn it. I've edit this thing so much I don't know what state everything is in anymore. So many mistakes.

-You could call the Submarine the Omen. Fits with the theme of Subs and Voracity, I think.

Land is Hellion and Savage. Sea is Vortex and Wrath. Omen fits the theme, but I'm wondering if it would fit the Carrier better? The way I named the Carriers they are "facilitators" of other things. Harmony have the Hydra (multiheaded creature), Purity have the Bastion (a defensive structure), Supremacy has the Shepard (one who herds sheep). I named the Hybrids Consul (one who gives advice) for Ascendancy, and Sovereign (a ruler, befitting the Aquatic units) for Mastery. I think "Omen" might work better here than Anarchy.

-New naval unit, though I'm not sure what to call it.
-Metamaterials
-Super weak (like Explorer weak)
-Is permanently invisible. So, the ultimate scout.
-Splash can still damage it, or just guessing where it is.

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This is more or less what the ORCL is, sans the perma-cloak. I don't like the idea of a unit being forever cloaked. If you don't have an upgrade to reveal it or have splash damage, you can't really do anything about it.

I do like getting suggestions again. If I didn't have over 80% of these things worked out (in terms of background and cost) I'd be more inclined to change things. That being said, I still have the entirety of "base unit upgrades" that are incomplete. If you have suggestions for upgrades for them, I'd be more than glad to hear it.

By base units and upgrades, I'm guessing you mean the upgrades for the Hybrid Affinity base units (like the Glory, Omen, Sovereign)?

On the matter of the Thunderhead, the problem is, it's positioned in such a way that it would almost never see play. The Purity techs are mostly left, and Harmony is mostly upper right, so putting it below Hypercomputing would put it in almost the exact opposite direction most Ascendancy players would go (that is, to the right and up).

And, more questions:
1. By upgrades, does that mean their perks?
2. If not, does that mean T3 Hybrid units?
3. Will you consider adding other base units? I've had my eye on a Paratrooper, AA Rover, and Heli for a while.