If it's only capable of displaying 262,000 colors then I call that false advertising. Why should we have to parse the term "support for?" That's misleading.

Google search 16.2 million colors lcd

You'll find its common and there for accepted practice to have 16.2 million colors as a feature of 6 bit LCD panels. However if the feature is claimed as "16.7 million colors" then they must be talking about 8 bit.

The point is, that Apple advertises a particular experience for the user, and it turns out that Apple may be stretching the specs to the point of falsehood.

Should they be allowed to get away with that?

BTW, as it turns out, the trackpad issue is now know as a major issue in all iBooks for that time frame. Apparently, this is not the first time that Apple has put a defective (or not as advertised) product out there and refused to take responsibility for it.

As to Apple's intimidation tactics with defect issues, I experienced that when I bought a MacBook G4. The track pad was defective but they claimed, rather strongly, that the reason it didn'y work was because I used hand lotion, and nearly every associate in the store was called upon to convince me that was true. Fortunately, I'd owned previous model Apple laptops that functioned just fine, with or without moisturized hands, so I didn't buy into that. I've also had posts deleted in their support section if I complained too strongly about an issue.

It's called a Powerbook G4.

I get a kick out of these people that complain that they've had threads deleted in the Apple Discussion Boards. DUH... it's Apple's Board on Apple's site, they're not gonna allow you to put anything you want on the discussions. It's also not the complaint department. If you want to complain, phone Apple or rant on some other Mac forum.

I'm upset about how much many of you are defending Apple on this blindly. I've gone through numerous Apple products and so far, Apple's products are the worst that I've experienced when it comes to reliability. Apple should pay more attention to 1. creating quality hardware and 2. selling what they're advertising.

2 out of 4 Apple laptops I've purchased had to be returned due to serious issues on arrival, and the two I've kept had "minor" but nontheless noticeable defects (bent hinge on PB and partially recessed power button on MBP).

1/2 iMacs I've purchased had to be returned because it randomly started making crazy sounds and freeze - deemed to be a logic board issue.

The Powerbook I've kept had its hard drive fail after 2 years and the display now disconnects when adjusting it - and I am by no means an abusive user.

Last but not least, my Airport Express just blew on me after I left it plugged in for a week! And I almost never used it!

I switched from a Powerbook G4 15 inch to a MacBook Pro 15 inch for my daily use and I noticed the "dithering" before I read about it on the posts. Once you use the computer a lot, you don't see it, but it is there, and I do feel like I got a sub-par display for a premium price.

I won't even mention the horror stories people have when attempting to "prove" to Apple that their products have a problem and need an exchange, or the number of faulty, "disposable" iPods out there.

Apple needs to see as many complaints / lawsuits as possible on this subject matter. As much as I respect the company and am an avid Mac-only user, I do not believe it is wise to keep on defending Apple and coming up with excuses for them if it's their fault.

I get a kick out of these people that complain that they've had threads deleted in the Apple Discussion Boards. DUH... it's Apple's Board on Apple's site, they're not gonna allow you to put anything you want on the discussions. It's also not the complaint department. If you want to complain, phone Apple or rant on some other Mac forum.

........

Again, though I'd never buy a PC, I do resent being taken for granted by Apple.

For a long time, they could count on Mac loyalists to stick with their product, because, not matter what kind of issues there might be, Apple turns out a vastly superior product. But it's a different story now that they are trying to woo PC users, as the they may be more likely to balk at defective computers or not as advertised issues.

Personally, I was seriously considering buying the next MacBook Pro that comes out, but I may wait a year, to see if this issue gets resolved. It's not in Apple's interest to fudge specs.

Run out and show me a Display/TV/Projector that doesn't degrade as time goes on...

As a matter of fact... Why don't you show me **any** product that doesn't degrade over time... Pet rocks and sand don't count.

D

Uhh...show me ones that consistently degrade in a matter of weeks or months after purchase. The MBP has only been out for what..a year? Try reading and comprending what people are complaining about next time.

I can only please one person per day. Today is not your day. Tomorrow doesn't look good either.

"Millions of Colors" and "More than 16 Million Colors" have become industry-wide terms. I'm almost certain that NEC and/or ViewSonic have used these in the past. Using these terms is a dead giveaway that dithering is involved and that there are truly only thousands of colors. Legally, I have no idea what the implications are, but Apple is certainly not the only one to do this. I'm not excusing Apple, but if Apple is held accountable, then so should all other manufacturers. Note that lots of manufactureres have stopped listing the color depth altogether, perhaps becasue this was a legal landmine.

Seems like 2 weeks is plenty of time to decide if you like the computer you just purchased...

Apple Store (online): "RETURN & REFUND POLICY - If you are not satisfied with your Apple purchase of a product, please call 1-800-676-2775 for a Return Material Authorization (RMA) request within 14 calendar days of the receipt of the product."

D

Yeah, and when the display degrades in two months or even THREE weeks, Apple won't take it back. Oh, and they'll dimiss your complaint too. Nice.

Quote:

Originally Posted by guest

The human eye can distinguish between over 200,000 colors, but not millions. The average persons eyes change as they age, which is why older people have different color preferences than younger folks. Color is totaly perceptive, and also associative. If you were to start to edit a photograph in one location and then looked at it in different light, it might look awful. What you had for lunch can affect your color perception.

No serious professional would consider color work on a laptop. But lot's of other image work can certainly be done, and that's why portables outsell towers 10 to 1.

This suit is just another waste of money, time, ink.

It's not about what people can tell the difference between. Most can't tell the differenc between 256kbps and 384kbps audio. Does that mean Apple can now sell 256kbps audio as 384? I mean, it's not that big a of a difference folks! Oh, and does that mean that when I point this out to them, they can tell me where to stick it?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Capt. Obvious

So glad you started that off with a gratuitous insult....

I have an MBP; if these "persons" actually *had* a case, mine would be subject to the same sub-standard screen they claim Apple is foisting off on their customers. It is not, ergo, no case - oh, what's that? they degrade? you mean, their performance suffers over time? you mean like everything else in the world? Sorry, Sparky: my MBP is nearing the 18-month mark, and I use it 8-10 hours a day, every day - my screen is, and has been ,crystal-clear, sharp and gorgeous.

In a true class-action situation, all or most MB/P screens would be subject to the claimed defect; not the case: just a couple monkeys fishing in deep pockets. *YAWN*

So remember. kids, jump on every bandwagon that goes by - who knows *where* you'll end up!

So yours doesn't have the issue. Neither does mine. So what? It's not about "all or most" friend..it's about a significant number. Seems like the complaint proves that outright. And I've personally heard of these same issues before.

And no, sparky, I'm not talking about performance degreading over a year or three. Jesus...try actually reading what the parties are complaining about, champ.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zlyden

Yeah. :-) Everyone knows that LCD/TFT displays loose about 1 bit of color per year and become useless after 6 or 8 years...

Ok outside the joke, probably, everyone also knows that Apple uses LG Philips screens in (*at least some of*) its notebooks, and LG Philips guys just do not produce laptop screens with more than 6-bit color -- see http://www.lgphilips-lcd.com/homeCon...prd300_j_e.jsp for LG laptop screen details -- except for some 20-inch model (did anyone see 20-inch notebook already?)

So, this is all another ridiculous money-srewing suite. Just wonder, how Apple would come out of it... :-(

(Pardon my English)

Perhaps the 8 bit thing is bunk, but not the durability/reliability issue nor false advertising claims. As for "everyone knowing" about LCD/TFTs losing a bit a year, I ask you and everyone else to try to comprehend that fact that the issue is NOT long term degradation...but short term degradation coupled with false claims and shitty service from Apple.

I can only please one person per day. Today is not your day. Tomorrow doesn't look good either.

I get a kick out of these people that complain that they've had threads deleted in the Apple Discussion Boards. DUH... it's Apple's Board on Apple's site, they're not gonna allow you to put anything you want on the discussions. It's also not the complaint department. If you want to complain, phone Apple or rant on some other Mac forum.

Don't be an apologist. Sure they are Apple's boards, but it's dishonest for them to delete legitimate service/repair issue threads just to make themselves look better. Hell, they may have even been doing it to prevent the threads from being used against them in a lawsuit.

On that not, "I get a kick" out of watching 13 year old Apple apologists think that their favorite company can do no wrong. I love Apple products, but I also know Apple is an arrogant company with questionable service/refund and repair policies. It's just the way it is.

I can only please one person per day. Today is not your day. Tomorrow doesn't look good either.

Not sure if this is the same problem, but I have a MBP and the screen is indeed grainy.

E.g. the transition of the interface in iTunes isn't really smooth. If I have a completely white page, it isn't smooth as well, but the pixels differ slightly in color. When I compare this to my BenQ TFT I can notice the difference a lot. I'm really sensitive to graphical details, so perhaps not everybody compains about this. It isn't a joke or whining, it's just true in my case.

However, I read some topics about this on the forum a few months back and since it's not just happening to me, I simply accepted the fact that my MBP screen isn't as good as some other screens .

"Millions of Colors" and "More than 16 Million Colors" have become industry-wide terms. I'm almost certain that NEC and/or ViewSonic have used these in the past. Using these terms is a dead giveaway that dithering is involved and that there are truly only thousands of colors. Legally, I have no idea what the implications are, but Apple is certainly not the only one to do this. I'm not excusing Apple, but if Apple is held accountable, then so should all other manufacturers. Note that lots of manufactureres have stopped listing the color depth altogether, perhaps becasue this was a legal landmine.

That's true, and I'd expect similar lawsuits to be leveled against PC notebook makers.

I'm just surprised that stuff like this hasn't come up before in a major way in other hardware. Remember the old graphics cards that used to claim '22-bit' color, but it really was 16-bit color, dithered? The computer and tech industry has been using dishonest lingo to describe color depth for a LOOOOONG time now. \

"Promote your ideas on the MacBook Pro’s dazzling display. An aggressive ATI Mobility Radeon X1600 graphics processor under the hood coupled with up to 256MB of GDDR3 SDRAM powers the mobile visual studio you’ve been waiting for. Retouch color, edit on location, video conference with colleagues: Do it all, anywhere.

MacBook Pro makes your ideas more enlightening, with a sharp, high-resolution screen. See blacker blacks, whiter whites, and many more colors in between on a brilliant 15.4-inch, 1440-by-900-pixel or 17-inch, 1680-by-1050-pixel digital display. Enjoy a nuanced view simply unavailable on other portables."

I do not have time to go through the 50 odd messages here but there are lots of other major flaws in the Intel laptops Apple has produced, and that they will not acknowledge. The random shutdown issues, flawed logic boards, and screen flickering. I have experienced all 3 of these on my original Macbook.

It was hell trying to get them to repair it. I use it every day for school and work and had to send it in to Apple, after much arguing in their store, to have them "fix" it. I went through this 3 times for the random shutdown issues and once for a bad logic board. Each time it was sent out, it was gone for over 2 weeks. Very ridiculous.

Now my screen is flickering a ton, like a loose connection or something. I've looked online and there seems to be thousands upon thousands of other similar reports so obviously mine isn't an isolated incident. This thing is only about 10 months old, no excuse for so many problems like that and the bad service. I imagine trying to battle in the store about the display issue will be just as painful, especially since it doesn't happen all the time and I haven't found a particular way to reproduce it. With only 2 months left of my 1 year warranty, I wouldn't put it past them to just meddle around with it for 2 months and then say my warranty is up, tough.

Not happy with Apple's quality on their laptops at all, if you couldn't tell.

That's true, and I'd expect similar lawsuits to be leveled against PC notebook makers.

I'm just surprised that stuff like this hasn't come up before in a major way in other hardware. Remember the old graphics cards that used to claim '22-bit' color, but it really was 16-bit color, dithered? The computer and tech industry has been using dishonest lingo to describe color depth for a LOOOOONG time now. \

.

And how about some of those older 15 inch CRT monitors with viewable screens smaller than 14 inch monitors? It took a class action lawsuit back in 1995 to get monitor manufacturers to start being honest about the true viewable size of their displays. And I bet Apple fans back then were also saying the same "useless lawsuit", "damn lawyers" comments. But on the other hand, when Apple's lawyers sue someone, it's always "Hurray Apple! Go get em!"

The graininess appears to be a graphics chip driver issue (someone above mentioned that rebooting into Windows fixed it) rather than a display issue, or it could be a problem with the Intel graphics hardware (there's enough problems there already, this wouldn't surprise me).

I've actually noticed graininess on the iMac displays as well as the laptops. However, on a cheaper external LCD, I noticed the particular display was very uniformly colored. I've always had problems with the quality of Apple's consumer displays. They just aren't good enough for color accuracy.

Putting aside potential quality problems from Apple with their macbook, as it's quite off topic (isn't that thread about the class action and the colour depth of the display?)

Companies shouldn't be allowed to say whatever they want just to sell their stuff, and customers shouldn't be held accountable for not having checked it before buying (especially when nowadays so many products are sold over the net, hence without much possibility to check before buying...)

That said:
1- going to the developper's pages on Apple site, they state for macbook as well as for the cinema display that the colour depth is up to 24bits... For me, developper's site is exempt of the usual marketing chit-chat (I might be wrong though...)
2- browsing the net, it's easy to check that there are still quite a lot of competitors that advertise millions or 16.7 millios of colour... why don't they get sued too?
3- after all, who cares if the hardware is 2 bits or 1 billion bit capable, as long as the result for the eye is the equivalent of 24bit depth? after all, nobody's ever sued the electric companies, for letting us think that the light bulbs have a constant brightness when in fact they're flickering 50Hz or 60Hz (depending where you live)

Forcing manufacturer's to face their responsability is a great thing, pushing things to get money out of it is just ruining the original moral purpose...

Technically their displays do produce millions of colors, just through an analog function (dithering).

Dithering is one thing I've seen Apple fans claim that Apple doesn't do, even recently on this board. I don't see it all the time on the displays that do dither, but when I do see it, I'm pretty annoyed by it. I hadn't noticed my MacBook Pro doing this.

Quote:

Originally Posted by laurence13

I am not one of those people as I didn't know that laptop displays were 6 bit. Is this true of all LCDs or just laptops? Are the Cinema displays 6 bpc as well?

The Cinema displays are purported to be 8bpc, but I think by the same people that claimed that Apple didn't use dithering.

Quote:

Originally Posted by DaveGee

- If the manufacturer lists the color as 16.7 million colors, it should be assumed that the display is 8-bit per-color.

- If the colors are listed as being 16.2 million or 16 million, consumers should assume that it uses a 6-bit per-color depth.

I have never heard of the 16.2M number. How is it derived? It seems like a bullshit number to me.

Quote:

Originally Posted by guest

What you had for lunch can affect your color perception.

I hadn't heard of that.

Quote:

No serious professional would consider color work on a laptop. But lot's of other image work can certainly be done, and that's why portables outsell towers 10 to 1.

The typical sales figures for most manufacturers is getting very close to 1:1. 10:1 is a long ways away.

Quote:

Originally Posted by DaveGee

Run out and show me a Display/TV/Projector that doesn't degrade as time goes on...

Most displays don't seem to degrade noticibly within the first year that I've found. It usually takes about three or more to get a shift that's noticible to most people.

as i'm sure it's been said, no professional is going to rely on the laptop screen for their final product. If you want a screen that produces perfect color, you'll have to go with a multi-thousand dollar flat panel or a $500+ CRT. I don't know what professionals use, but I'm sure ultra-thin laptop displays aren't it. I thought they would use CRTs anyway because of their superior color reproduction and contrast, as well as black reproduction.

Besides that, even if it does "trick" the user's eye into seeing millions of colors, it still appears to display millions of colors.

I think these guys are just taking Apple's usual marketing exaggeration the wrong way. And as it's been said, if one isn't satisfied with the color quality of the display, Apple's return policy is fine.

I'm sure the displays used on the Macbook/Pros are exactly the same as the ones used on other laptops.

as i'm sure it's been said, no professional is going to rely on the laptop screen for their final product. If you want a screen that produces perfect color, you'll have to go with a multi-thousand dollar flat panel or a $500+ CRT. I don't know what professionals use, but I'm sure ultra-thin laptop displays aren't it. I thought they would use CRTs anyway because of their superior color reproduction and contrast, as well as black reproduction.

Besides that, even if it does "trick" the user's eye into seeing millions of colors, it still appears to display millions of colors.

I think these guys are just taking Apple's usual marketing exaggeration the wrong way. And as it's been said, if one isn't satisfied with the color quality of the display, Apple's return policy is fine.

I'm sure the displays used on the Macbook/Pros are exactly the same as the ones used on other laptops.

Yep, but as someone else pointed out, Apple may've been pouring on the marketing honey a little extra thick:

"Promote your ideas on the MacBook Pro’s dazzling display. An aggressive ATI Mobility Radeon X1600 graphics processor under the hood coupled with up to 256MB of GDDR3 SDRAM powers the mobile visual studio you’ve been waiting for. Retouch color, edit on location, video conference with colleagues: Do it all, anywhere.

MacBook Pro makes your ideas more enlightening, with a sharp, high-resolution screen. See blacker blacks, whiter whites, and many more colors in between on a brilliant 15.4-inch, 1440-by-900-pixel or 17-inch, 1680-by-1050-pixel digital display. Enjoy a nuanced view simply unavailable on other portables."

Yeah, Apple should be told off for being over the top on their marketing of their laptop screens when they're the same as any other manufacturer, and the main difference is in the software.

I think a lot of people are still thinking "ooh, pixelly dithering, like Floyd-Steinberg" when they see the word "dithering", i.e., static dithering. That's not how 6-bit LCD panels dither as far as I am aware, they dynamically dither so that a pixel, on average over time, appears to be the correct tone. You would have to have excellent eyes, or very ideal conditions, to see this happening. If you're on a laptop now, can you see it on a smooth grey gradient (e.g., Mac OS X titlebar)? I can't on this iBook.

One very annoying thing about 6bit displays is that they are harder to calibrate. A pretty popular device called the Huey (by Pantone and x/brite) can fail on it but other models of calibration devices also have their difficulty. Just search for Huey, pink and MacBook Pro or iMac.

And yes, I have the strong suspicion that iMacs also use 6bit panels. Now wouldn't it be rather helpful if Apple told their potential photographic customers that they will have trouble with the iMac and should stick with the Cinema Displays? No, let the customers find this out the hard way, why should Apple provide any information about the specifications of their products.

Well aside from the merits of the whole lawsuit. Do the MBPs really have 6-bit displays?

This really sucks if true as I've got my money ready to buy a MBP. And what is up with Apple lately? We have this now and then there was the ipod nano scratching on the first version. Why can't they just accept a little less profit and use higher quality parts? I know I sound like I hate Apple but I don't. I've been a big Apple fan for years and am glad as heck that Steve Jobs came back to run it. But he (and probably most other execs at Apple) is a liberal and as such should have a long-term mindset that shuns short term profits but that is not what I am seeing. I'm also seeing a little bit of Verizion type pricing happening which also sucks.

I'm far from an Apple Apologist... And I'm the first that calls them out when I feel they've done something wrong. You freaks on the other hand are far worse then I..... You want to crucify Apple for the fact that they use electricity... the same electricity that's used to kill convicted criminals in Texas.

Apple does NOT manufacture their own displays.... **NOR** do they deal in enough volume to dictate the use of shitty components in the manufacture of their displays to the true manufactures of said displays.

Are you living in such a fantasy land as to believe that Apple has input into the components that make up an LCD display? If so, more power to ya...

Apple does NOT manufacture their own displays.... **NOR** do they deal in enough volume to dictate the use of shitty components in the manufacture of their displays to the true manufactures of said displays.

Are you living in such a fantasy land as to believe that Apple has input into the components that make up an LCD display? If so, more power to ya...

They have made significant up-front investments in the manufacture of LCD panels.

I'm far from an Apple Apologist... And I'm the first that calls them out when I feel they've done something wrong. You freaks on the other hand are far worse then I..... You want to crucify Apple for the fact that they use electricity... the same electricity that's used to kill convicted criminals in Texas.

Apple does NOT manufacture their own displays.... **NOR** do they deal in enough volume to dictate the use of shitty components in the manufacture of their displays to the true manufactures of said displays.

Are you living in such a fantasy land as to believe that Apple has input into the components that make up an LCD display? If so, more power to ya...

D

Agree with everything you said, however, the last sentence is not true. Apple sells the LCD, they are responsible for it (So they better have input or else their stupid). I work in a company that sometimes sells foreign made products, we are the ones that are responsible because we sold it. Apple will probably settle this one out of court, what's terrible about all this is we Americans sue for anything even a parking space.

MacBook (Pro) owners can run a test with SwitchResX or ASTRA32 to learn about the display, once you have the exact reference you can use Google to find the specs like this guy did. Apple should make clear to customers that notebook displays are 6-bit instead of spouting marketing nonsense: "MacBook Pro makes your ideas more enlightening, with a sharp, high-resolution screen. See blacker blacks, whiter whites, and many more colors in between on a brilliant 15.4-inch, 1440-by-900-pixel or 17-inch, 1680-by-1050-pixel digital display. Enjoy a nuanced view simply unavailable on other portables." Bwahaha!

Quote:

Originally Posted by JeffDM

The Cinema displays are purported to be 8bpc, but I think by the same people that claimed that Apple didn't use dithering.

Seems like they are indeed 8-bit displays.

Anandtech review: "Although both the Apple and Dell 20" displays use the same LG.Philips LCD LM201W01 panel…"

I remember seeing some specs on the new Samsung LED LCD 15.4" display that could end up in the next MBP. I shuddered when it said it only supported 6-bits per channel or 262K colors. Here's the link: Samsung LED backlit display

Apple notebooks may employ sub-par displays only capable of 6 bits per channel (18-bit color), rather than 8 bits per channel, making them capable of displaying only 262,144 colors without dithering, as opposed to millions.

Why be honest with your customers when you can fleece them with overpriced computers using outdated or sub-standard parts sold agressively through an "unbelievable, out of this world" hyperbole ad campaign, AKA the Reality Distortion Field ?

MacBook Computer (May 2007)
The MacBook computer introduced in May 2007, based on the Intel Core 2 Duo, has a 13.3-inch, glossy, widescreen flat-panel display (measured diagonally). The display has a Low Reflection Glossy Polarizer (LRGP). Display depths up to 24 bits per pixel at all supported screen resolutions .

The MacBook supports an LCD display size of 1280x800 pixels at 114 dpi, 250 nits single bulb and shows up to millions of colors.

Quote:

MacBook Computer (November 2006)
The MacBook computer announced in November 2006, based on the Intel Core 2 Duo, has a 13.3-inch, glossy, widescreen flat-panel display (measured diagonally). The display has a Low Reflection Glossy Polarizer (LRGP). Display depths up to 24 bits per pixel at all supported screen resolutions .

The MacBook supports an LCD display size of 1280x800 pixels at 114 dpi, 250 nits single bulb and shows up to millions of colors.

Quote:

MacBook Computer (May 2006)
The MacBook computer announced in May 2006, based on the Intel Core Duo, has a 13.3-inch, glossy, widescreen flat-panel display (measured diagonally). The display has a Low Reflection Glossy Polarizer (LRGP. Display depths up to 24 bits per pixel at all supported screen resolutions .

The MacBook supports an LCD display size of 1280 x 800 pixels at 114 dpi, 250 nits single bulb and shows up to millions of colors.

Quoted for truth

Quote:

Originally Posted by ouragan

Why be honest with your customers when you can fleece them with overpriced computers using outdated or sub-standard parts sold agressively through an "unbelievable, out of this world" hyperbole ad campaign, AKA the Reality Distortion Field ?

Would you like to retract your lemming like following of the idiots? ^^^^

Can we cut with the calls of apologists and such now? The freaking lawsuit and nay-sayers just "forgot" to actually check the facts.

Well, I've been counting colors on my screen for several hours, and I can't come up anywhere near 16 million....

Seriously - like most here, I'm a big fan of Apple, but if there is MERIT to the claim that there was false advertisement (not what they say NOW in their marketing, but what they said at the time...), then any company, including Apple, needs to be bitch-slapped straight.

Well, I've been counting colors on my screen for several hours, and I can't come up anywhere near 16 million....

Seriously - like most here, I'm a big fan of Apple, but if there is MERIT to the claim that there was false advertisement (not what they say NOW in their marketing, but what they said at the time...), then any company, including Apple, needs to be bitch-slapped straight.

We all hate lawyers until we need one.

No merit, just a fast lawyer with absolutely no Googling skills. Or even the brains to effectively check Apple's website. Apple is selling 24 bit per pixel displays in the MacBooks, and has been all along. If someone is getting a bad picture it is a defect and replaceable.

I do not have time to go through the 50 odd messages here but there are lots of other major flaws in the Intel laptops Apple has produced, and that they will not acknowledge. The random shutdown issues, flawed logic boards, and screen flickering. I have experienced all 3 of these on my original Macbook.

It was hell trying to get them to repair it. I use it every day for school and work and had to send it in to Apple, after much arguing in their store, to have them "fix" it. I went through this 3 times for the random shutdown issues and once for a bad logic board. Each time it was sent out, it was gone for over 2 weeks. Very ridiculous.

Now my screen is flickering a ton, like a loose connection or something. I've looked online and there seems to be thousands upon thousands of other similar reports so obviously mine isn't an isolated incident. This thing is only about 10 months old, no excuse for so many problems like that and the bad service. I imagine trying to battle in the store about the display issue will be just as painful, especially since it doesn't happen all the time and I haven't found a particular way to reproduce it. With only 2 months left of my 1 year warranty, I wouldn't put it past them to just meddle around with it for 2 months and then say my warranty is up, tough.

Not happy with Apple's quality on their laptops at all, if you couldn't tell.

Shhhh!!! Don't say stuff like this unless you want to get chased out here by the pitchfork and torch wielding fanboys!

Oh, and you forgot to mention the mooing/whining fans (cooling device not the users) and the discolored white Macbooks, two other issues Apple refused to acknowlege until negative publicity forced them to.

Oh and then there's the Mac "laptops" that get so hot you can't actually put them on your lap without wearing firefighter pants. In case that doesn't bother you, keep in mind that heat is the number one cause of component failure, so expect a lot of MBs, MBPs to start dying very soon.

I'm not posting this to troll. Apple makes beautiful products and a superior OS and I and am interested in getting a MB (l'm a long time Windows user). But they really need to be held accountable, something its rabid fanbase refuses to do, no matter how much crap they have to put up with.