This reminds me Gaijin Goomba's video about big breasted women. He pretty much talks about a double standard both in games and in real life. If a character has big breasts, it's obviously pandering. If a girl has big breast, she is obviously just looking for attention (or acting like a slut)

No thanks. We want IDEALIZED people in these games, not realistic ones. They are all basically superheroes.

I want them exceptionally smart or strong and probably all good looking in their own way. This is my OPINION and my PREFERENCE, and there is no right answer.

I DO NOT WANT FAT CHARACTERS ANY MORE THAN I WANT FAT PEOPLE IN THE WORLD. It is one of the least appealing traits a human being can have and is such a chronic problem in America that the current trend is to just justify it and "feel good" about yourself while the world literally dies from the effects of obesity through diabetes and heart disease.

Wait, I thought the whole point of being athletic and constantly at war meant you were thin and fit. Like it seems unrealistic to have obese people on a war footing. Don't forget, as much as Bioware is about inclusivity in their games, their games are about WAR. As in soldiers. Warriors. People who fight. Those people are, through dint of the physical strains of war, going to be thin and fit.

If you're "plus-sized" maybe you shouldn't cosplay as someone who is fit and athletic. Just saying, Bioware is not the one at fault.

Takwin:No thanks. We want IDEALIZED people in these games, not realistic ones. They are all basically superheroes.

I want them exceptionally smart or strong and probably all good looking in their own way. This is my OPINION and my PREFERENCE, and there is no right answer.

I DO NOT WANT FAT CHARACTERS ANY MORE THAN I WANT FAT PEOPLE IN THE WORLD. It is one of the least appealing traits a human being can have and is such a chronic problem in America that the current trend is to just justify it and "feel good" about yourself while the world literally dies from the effects of obesity through diabetes and heart disease.

Ah, priceless...

On topic: should devs really care what cosplayers think? That sounds like a remarkably dismissive thing to say, because it kindof is... I'm all for BioWare adding more diversity for body shapes for both/all genders, if it makes sense of the character, but I don't believe 'Hm, what would suit cosplayers... ' should ever be something a designer thinks about in terms of character creation (unless you're Kojima and that "erotic" character design is Quiet, apparently).

I'm not into cosplay at all, but I also thought it was a fairly body positive thing for anyone to cosplay any outfit, thus making the issue of suitability fairly irrelevant. Is such an emphasis on matching body types with characters really that positive? Cosplay should surely be fun for the person cosplaying, above all other concerns.

I think Liana and by extension posters keep using a certain word, and I don't think it means what they think it means.But then that's what happens when you boil down language to imprecise Orwellian nonsense such as "plus-size". The speaker's own mental print is lost. A comparison all the more appropriate because Newspeak parlance asks of speakers to affix words such as "plus" for emphasis. We can't say "buxom" or "fat" anymore, god forbid you offend anybody, we have to be ambiguous and go for "plus-sized".THIS is Liana. She's not "plus-sized", she's buxom.

I have a kind of serious question though, and maybe it's ignorance because I don't cosplay and wouldn't even if I didn't look like the offspring of Jon Stewart and a mountain troll. I don't say this to make it sound bad, I also don't ski and wouldn't even if I had the coordination, but I hold no malice towards skiers.

What happens if Bioware adds some busty characters and you don't like them?

Like, I don't know, I'm personally more likely to like characters who are svelte, athletic, or tomboy-ish (their look, anyway). I'm pretty much screwed in the hypothetical situation that this was something that interested me, right? I mean, even though there's not particularly a shortage?

I don't get the people arguing against this, we have plenty of plus sized guys in these games, look at the dwarf with the xbow. Its one of the really weird things in games and animation that there are 3 female bodies, old (sometimes old still uses the standard body, which yields some odd results such as granny having rocking tits), really young, then the one body type everyone else has, excluding a few select cases. Even monster girls tend to have the same body-type, with just animal legs or something.

I have a kind of serious question though, and maybe it's ignorance because I don't cosplay and wouldn't even if I didn't look like the offspring of Jon Stewart and a mountain troll. I don't say this to make it sound bad, I also don't ski and wouldn't even if I had the coordination, but I hold no malice towards skiers.

What happens if Bioware adds some busty characters and you don't like them?

Like, I don't know, I'm personally more likely to like characters who are svelte, athletic, or tomboy-ish (their look, anyway). I'm pretty much screwed in the hypothetical situation that this was something that interested me, right? I mean, even though there's not particularly a shortage?

Tell me.. when was the last time you saw a obese person in the army... marines... navy... airforce?

I'm sorry, but when the marines can actually literally blow things up with their mind, that example will become relevant. Not to mention she gives the example of the rather saggy Iron Bull.

Also, given that she gave a size eight as her primary example, are you perfectly clear on what a size eight represents?

Darth Rosenberg:That sounds like a remarkably dismissive thing to say, because it kindof is...

If you know it's dismissive, maybe don't do it? It's possible to disagree or even question someone without dismissing them or their concerns.

It seems no more trivial than other reasons people want characters to look a certain way.

I suck at quoting so here's what I'm going to talk to:

Tell me.. when was the last time you saw a obese person in the army... marines... navy... airforce?

I'm sorry, but when the marines can actually literally blow things up with their mind, that example will become relevant. Not to mention she gives the example of the rather saggy Iron Bull.

No matter WHAT you're capable of being physically fit will make you a better fighter. What if you're on one side of a ship and there's a battle going down on the other side? Waddle on down? Being physically fit is EXTREMELY important even if you're fighting with magic space monkeys, look at the Jedi? They're space wizards and all but the most powerful need to be quite physically fit. And even the emperor has quite a few fit body guards.

Now that being said I wouldn't call size 8 "plus sized" by any means, maybe a TAD out of the perfect fighting shape but still not fat.

Aside: Haven't played too much DAI but isn't Iron Bull all muscle or something?

Takwin:No thanks. We want IDEALIZED people in these games, not realistic ones. They are all basically superheroes.

I want them exceptionally smart or strong and probably all good looking in their own way. This is my OPINION and my PREFERENCE, and there is no right answer.

I DO NOT WANT FAT CHARACTERS ANY MORE THAN I WANT FAT PEOPLE IN THE WORLD. It is one of the least appealing traits a human being can have and is such a chronic problem in America that the current trend is to just justify it and "feel good" about yourself while the world literally dies from the effects of obesity through diabetes and heart disease.

Something Amyss:If you know it's dismissive, maybe don't do it? It's possible to disagree or even question someone without dismissing them or their concerns.

It seems no more trivial than other reasons people want characters to look a certain way.

You can be entirely polite when being dismissive, which is precisely what I was, and I also elaborated on my point reasonably.

I do think it's a very peculiar thing to ask of designers, and were I crafting characters for games or animations, I wouldn't consider any cosplayers preferences regardless of what they were. And, like I said, isn't the 'anyone can cosplay any character' approach just more inclusive and positive in the first place? If Liana feels she has to narrow the types of characters she can do, surely that's her choice alone, and not something any designer should feel the need to cater to. What's wrong with a bustier expression of a certain character, anyway?

If this piece was simply about wanting more diverse body types across the board, then I'd absolutely agree (as long as they suited whatever tone/context a given IP is going for).

Takwin:I DO NOT WANT FAT CHARACTERS ANY MORE THAN I WANT FAT PEOPLE IN THE WORLD.

I think I'll just emptyquote you from now on whenever people start bitching about "SJW's".

I mean what's exactly wrong with what he said? It's an health concern, yeah he may have meant it in a dickish way. It's like me saying "I don't want cigarette smokers in video games any more than in the real world.

I thought having female characters that would fit Liana's build was pretty much the most sexist thing designers do these days?

Johnny Novgorod:I think Liana and by extension posters keep using a certain word, and I don't think it means what they think it means.But then that's what happens when you boil down language to imprecise Orwellian nonsense such as "plus-size". The speaker's own mental print is lost. A comparison all the more appropriate because Newspeak parlance asks of speakers to affix words such as "plus" for emphasis. We can't say "buxom" or "fat" anymore, god forbid you offend anybody, we have to be ambiguous and go for "plus-sized".THIS is Liana. She's not "plus-sized", she's buxom.

Karadalis:Im sorry but unless bioware decides to turn away from epic war stories and focus on the common day to day live of peasants in the dragon age world a "plus size" character makes no fucking sense.

Are you serious? How much royalty do you see in the Dragon Age games? The setting is based on the middle ages where larger women were considered more attractive. There was a lot of plus-sized people in royalty.

We've already got plenty of characters who don't make sense. We've got rake thin women with no muscle (and large breasts) decked out in armor who are portrayed as strong and competent fighters. Fun fact, for most women, the more muscle you put on, and the more weight you lose, the smaller your breasts get, since breast are mostly fat.

Look at heavyweight wrestling, mma, boxing or whatever. You've got women far bigger than anything you see in games (with the only exception I can think of being Hammer from Fable).

Beyond that, the world is full of mages and aristocrats who don't have any need to be phsyically fit, as I mentioned be, the latter of which is actually unlikely to be.

Karadalis:Im sorry but unless bioware decides to turn away from epic war stories and focus on the common day to day live of peasants in the dragon age world a "plus size" character makes no fucking sense.

Are you serious? How much royalty do you see in the Dragon Age games? The setting is based on the middle ages where larger women were considered more attractive. There was a lot of plus-sized people in royalty.

We've already got plenty of characters who don't make sense. We've got rake thin women with no muscle (and large breasts) decked out in armor who are portrayed as strong and competent fighters. Fun fact, for most women, the more muscle you put on, and the more weight you lose, the smaller your breasts get, since breast are mostly fat.

Look at heavyweight wrestling, mma, boxing or whatever. You've got women far bigger than anything you see in games (with the only exception I can think of being Hammer from Fable).

Beyond that, the world is full of mages and aristocrats who don't have any need to be phsyically fit, as I mentioned be, the latter of which is actually unlikely to be.

No but see unrealistic bodies are only acceptable when they pander to ME because

Above you see a sad result of what happens when a company starts pandering to their fanbase: the fanbase starts demanding more and more and more.I'm one fat bastard and I sure as hell don't want to see fat people in my videogames.

Takwin:No thanks. We want IDEALIZED people in these games, not realistic ones. They are all basically superheroes.

I want them exceptionally smart or strong and probably all good looking in their own way. This is my OPINION and my PREFERENCE, and there is no right answer.

I DO NOT WANT FAT CHARACTERS ANY MORE THAN I WANT FAT PEOPLE IN THE WORLD. It is one of the least appealing traits a human being can have and is such a chronic problem in America that the current trend is to just justify it and "feel good" about yourself while the world literally dies from the effects of obesity through diabetes and heart disease.

Superheroes are boring. I want people. People with flaws. Saying that every character needs to be super idealized, even if you're just talking about the Bioware games, that is EXTREMLY limiting. I'm not saying this from a social standpoint, I'm saying this from a writing standpoint. Having every character be idealized is boring. Not exploring things like this limits the things you can go down with characters. I think we have enough beautiful people already. It's becoming an annoying cliche.

And when the rest of the 1st world stops having obesity problems too, it'll be relevant to single out America.

No matter WHAT you're capable of being physically fit will make you a better fighter.

Please tell me how you came to this conclusion about fantasy material. Do muscles help my psychic powers?

Aside: Haven't played too much DAI but isn't Iron Bull all muscle or something?

Well, keep in mind that there may be a perception issue because I'm looking at Bull through the same standards by which we judge women. He's "fat" in the same sense that people have implied the author is fat, which is to say not really. But if a woman has the same kind of bulk in a game or a movie or whatever, she's a cow (ironic, with Iron BULL as an example) or ugly, or something similar.

Though honestly, I've seen people complain about pro wrestles getting fat for showing less belly and man-boob (qunariboob?) than IB does. This also fits in with the military comparison.

Darth Rosenberg:You can be entirely polite when being dismissive, which is precisely what I was, and I also elaborated on my point reasonably.

I disagree. But I don't think trying to elaborate will get me anywhere, so I'll leave it at that.

You could, however, made the same point without the dismissal. I would argue the point would have been better because it didn't start off by immediately disregarding the person in question.

Well If you want your comment thread to explode, just mention anything to do with diversity, female cosplay and/or a word that can be misinterpereted easily by people that cannot be arsed to read any more than the heading of an article for their snap-judgement and here we go!This is going to be fun.

Karadalis:Im sorry but unless bioware decides to turn away from epic war stories and focus on the common day to day live of peasants in the dragon age world a "plus size" character makes no fucking sense.

Are you serious? How much royalty do you see in the Dragon Age games? The setting is based on the middle ages where larger women were considered more attractive. There was a lot of plus-sized people in royalty.

We've already got plenty of characters who don't make sense. We've got rake thin women with no muscle (and large breasts) decked out in armor who are portrayed as strong and competent fighters. Fun fact, for most women, the more muscle you put on, and the more weight you lose, the smaller your breasts get, since breast are mostly fat.

Look at heavyweight wrestling, mma, boxing or whatever. You've got women far bigger than anything you see in games (with the only exception I can think of being Hammer from Fable).

Beyond that, the world is full of mages and aristocrats who don't have any need to be phsyically fit, as I mentioned be, the latter of which is actually unlikely to be.

This is also the middle ages where being gay or trans were a madman's ideas in the best of circumstances...I've already been told that pretty much everyone being completely accepting of both is ok because it's a fantasy land. So I'm gonna say the same thing here.

It's a fantasy world where idealized bodies are the norm and people being fat/heavy/etc. were never considered attractive or encouraged in any way, shape, or form, and regular exercise was if you were privileged enough to, otherwise you just starved because you didn't have the money to eat, so there's your answer. You want heavier woman models, go play Fable, there's honestly plenty of them there other than Hammer.

This is also the middle ages where being gay or trans were a madman's ideas in the best of circumstances...I've already been told that pretty much everyone being completely accepting of both is ok because it's a fantasy land. So I'm gonna say the same thing here.

It's a fantasy world where idealized bodies are the norm and people being fat/heavy/etc. were never considered attractive or encouraged in any way, shape, or form, and regular exercise was if you were privileged enough to, otherwise you just starved because you didn't have the money to eat, so there's your answer. You want heavier woman models, go play Fable, there's honestly plenty of them there other than Hammer.

Oh, I'm not saying that you need to have a world where the nobility is overweight and this is the ideal for beauty, I'm just saying that it's patently not unrealistic to have larger characters in your medieval world. Not to mention, the peasantry is probably the last place that would make any sense for people to be overweight.

That being said, I think you're reading too much into what was probably just a utilitarian and marketing choice. I doubt that this was supposed to be some justified, ingrained aspect of the world, it was just most likely something thrown in there to limit the types of character models they need to animate, and avoid upsetting those people who don't like worlds with fat people in them. It's like saying all the women had pretty faces because they have meticulous breeding rules for beauty to weed out the ugly genes. They have pretty women because most of their customers like looking at pretty women

No matter WHAT you're capable of being physically fit will make you a better fighter.

Please tell me how you came to this conclusion about fantasy material. Do muscles help my psychic powers?

Aside: Haven't played too much DAI but isn't Iron Bull all muscle or something?

Well, keep in mind that there may be a perception issue because I'm looking at Bull through the same standards by which we judge women. He's "fat" in the same sense that people have implied the author is fat, which is to say not really. But if a woman has the same kind of bulk in a game or a movie or whatever, she's a cow (ironic, with Iron BULL as an example) or ugly, or something similar.

Though honestly, I've seen people complain about pro wrestles getting fat for showing less belly and man-boob (qunariboob?) than IB does. This also fits in with the military comparison.

Darth Rosenberg:You can be entirely polite when being dismissive, which is precisely what I was, and I also elaborated on my point reasonably.

I disagree. But I don't think trying to elaborate will get me anywhere, so I'll leave it at that.

You could, however, made the same point without the dismissal. I would argue the point would have been better because it didn't start off by immediately disregarding the person in question.

You kindly ignored in my post how I LITERALLY ANSWERED THAT, but ok I'll humor you again. Lets say a battle is raging in one area and you need to move there quickly, rolling around like a whale won't be your quickest method. You also COMPLETELY ignored most of my post but W/E read what you want then ask questions.

EDIT: Also there is literally no situation where being fat would make you a BETTER fighter in any fight.

I still find design on female characters to be rather boring. Hell, you just flat out said that all video game characters have the same design. That's boring. I want variety.

Also I looked up plus size women. They look NOTHING like that picture. In fact I looked up that woman and couldn't find her size anywhere. In fact if I google her name and plus sized, you know what comes up first? This thread.

I must be stupid or something. Whenever people read fantasy stories that have one of the questing party members be a 89 year old wizard with the physique and robustness of a porcelain walking stick, I don't find my suspension of disbelief strained in the slightest. A fat person on an adventure though? Well that's clear impossible! There is no way that could be plausible in a fictional fantasy setting!For this same reason, Archer is the worst show in the world because it depicts a fat woman being good at driving, fighting and sex. Also, I could beat Sammo Hung in a fight because he's fat, and thus clearly rubbish at everything.

Jesus christ, get a grip. I would love to see heftier people in fantasies. A range of body types for characters would be nice. I don't see the basis for people's arbitrary distinctions about what counts as an appropriate physique in a fucking fantasy story.

This is also the middle ages where being gay or trans were a madman's ideas in the best of circumstances...I've already been told that pretty much everyone being completely accepting of both is ok because it's a fantasy land. So I'm gonna say the same thing here.

It's a fantasy world where idealized bodies are the norm and people being fat/heavy/etc. were never considered attractive or encouraged in any way, shape, or form, and regular exercise was if you were privileged enough to, otherwise you just starved because you didn't have the money to eat, so there's your answer. You want heavier woman models, go play Fable, there's honestly plenty of them there other than Hammer.

Oh, I'm not saying that you need to have a world where the nobility is overweight and this is the ideal for beauty, I'm just saying that it's patently not unrealistic to have larger characters in your medieval world. Not to mention, the peasantry is probably the last place that would make any sense for people to be overweight.

That being said, I think you're reading too much into what was probably just a utilitarian and marketing choice. I doubt that this was supposed to be some justified, ingrained aspect of the world, it was just most likely something thrown in there to limit the types of character models they need to animate, and avoid upsetting those people who don't like worlds with fat people in them. It's like saying all the women had pretty faces because they have meticulous breeding rules for beauty to weed out the ugly genes. They have pretty women because most of their customers like looking at pretty women

And I believe you read too far into what I was saying as well. Your basic reasoning was that it was the middle ages and the bodies and beauty thingamabob needed to reflect that as well. My basic reasoning was that there needed to be something other than one asshole country that nobody likes that had problems with gay/trans. Both are explained away in-universe as it being a fantasy land that doesn't have to conform to OUR world's history, rules, or standards in any way.

And as has been said in countless other threads that has had this type of thing pop up, those limited models for space has never been a good enough answer in my experience for the people that don't want them for whatever reason. Don't much mind either way, but I'm always one for keeping costs down and making the player use more than just their eyes to see a character.

Either way, Bioware's sorta screwed as a company if this continues. They already lost most of their goodwill the last few years from the people that loved their games as games, and now they're starting to slide into the same crap the last couple seasons of Sherlock jumped in headfirst without a snorkel with. Listening that closely to fans without some kind of quality control that isn't just buddies patting each other on the back is not really ever a good thing.

Xsjadoblayde:Well If you want your comment thread to explode, just mention anything to do with diversity, female cosplay and/or a word that can be misinterpereted easily by people that cannot be arsed to read any more than the heading of an article for their snap-judgement and here we go!This is going to be fun.

Actually its been pretty calm, all things considered. Mostly people just pointing out Bioware writes war stories involving soldiers and you don't find obese soldiers. But there is the token "Yes I did!" "No you didn't!" quote wars than accompany every Escapist topic.

Xsjadoblayde:Well If you want your comment thread to explode, just mention anything to do with diversity, female cosplay and/or a word that can be misinterpereted easily by people that cannot be arsed to read any more than the heading of an article for their snap-judgement and here we go!This is going to be fun.

Actually its been pretty calm, all things considered. Mostly people just pointing out Bioware writes war stories involving soldiers and you don't find obese soldiers. But there is the token "Yes I did!" "No you didn't!" quote wars than accompany every Escapist topic.

You usually don't find soldiers who have soldier length hair that they let down during battle or cleavage windows either. That didn't seem to stop Bioware.

People seem to get really freaking selective when they criticize a lack of realism.

My girlfriend has similar issues and because I introduced her to bioware games she wants to do a couples cosplay which only limits the options even more.

I think the problem comes from the puritan critics: Characters with these proportions make them cry things like 'too sexy', 'unrealistic proportions' and 'pandering to male audiences' (enough though in this case it's a woman asking for them). And because Bioware creates such a rich and diverse cast in every game if they started doubling up on the 'buxom' ladies I think those critics would flip out.That being said I can also see why they wouldn't want to double up just for aesthetic gameplay reasons; give each character a different profile so they stand out on the battlefield at a glance.

On the title of the article, I've watched this writer tear up Anita and debate with Sargon so when I read the title I immediately thought 'well I guess even good writers have to put some click-bait in their articles'. Shame some of the posters automatically jumped to conclusions about the article instead of reading it.

And for a couple to cosplay as we were going with our favourite characters; Femshep + Garrus