Are you just trying to ride out brief glitches and brownouts, or are you trying to keep your system running long enough to finish what you're working on and shut down cleanly in the event of a total power failure? Do you have any other equipment (e.g. broadband modem/router, network switch, printer, etc.) that also needs to be on the UPS? The answers to these questions will have a big effect on what kind of UPS you need.

The only way to make an accurate determination is to use a wattmeter to measure the power draw of the equipment you will be putting on the UPS, then consult the UPS specs to see what kind of run time you can expect.

Are you just trying to ride out brief glitches and brownouts, or are you trying to keep your system running long enough to finish what you're working on and shut down cleanly in the event of a total power failure? Do you have any other equipment (e.g. broadband modem/router, network switch, printer, etc.) that also needs to be on the UPS? The answers to these questions will have a big effect on what kind of UPS you need.

The only way to make an accurate determination is to use a wattmeter to measure the power draw of the equipment you will be putting on the UPS, then consult the UPS specs to see what kind of run time you can expect.

Thanks to both of you who have answered already.

The short answer is that I'd like to do both smooth over glitches and make a clean shut down in case of a total power failure. I'm not looking to ride out a significant length failure (as some of my friends do). So I didn't list the broadband modem, router, speakers or any of that kind of stuff in my sig (it is my understanding that you don't put a laser printer on a UPS).

Yeah, laser printers are power pigs, and will kill a UPS battery in fairly short order. If all you care about is shutting down, then your broadband router, etc. can go on just a surge suppressor (no battery backup).

If you don't have and can't borrow a wattmeter, my suggestion would be to just guesstimate the power draw of your system and monitor, then use the run time graphs on APC's site (each model has a graph showing power draw vs. runtime) to see how many minutes you'll get. Give yourself a 50-100% cushion to account for power factor (unless your system and monitor both have active PFC this will reduce your run time), and eventual aging of the battery (the runtime graphs on APCs site assume a brand new battery).

Make sure the UPS you buy is "line interactive" i.e. has AVR (automatic voltage regulation) to smooth out any voltage dips (brown-outs). Don't put too much faith in the surge suppressing capabilities of UPSes and mainstream surge suppressors since they use MOVs. If you're serious about reducing spikes, put a ZeroSurge surge suppressor between the outlet and your UPS. It costs more, but nothing comes close to its ability to suppress spikes; plus, it comes with a lifetime warranty and is built in the USA like things used to be built. And remember, nothing stops lightning strikes. In an electrical storm, you should power your equipment down and unplug it from the wall, if possible.

BTW, APC is always a good UPS brand. Tripp-Lite is good as well. I'm sure other people can recommend some but those are the ones I've had the best luck with.

bdwilcox wrote:Make sure the UPS you buy is "line interactive" i.e. has AVR (automatic voltage regulation) to smooth out any voltage dips (brown-outs).

Line interactive units do normally come with AVR, but AVR is not in the definition. The best UPS type that you can get is actually an online UPS, where it is running off the battery as its primary power source.

bdwilcox wrote:Don't put too much faith in the surge suppressing capabilities of UPSes and mainstream surge suppressors since they use MOVs. If you're serious about reducing spikes, put a ZeroSurge surge suppressor between the outlet and your UPS. It costs more, but nothing comes close to its ability to suppress spikes; plus, it comes with a lifetime warranty and is built in the USA like things used to be built. And remember, nothing stops lightning strikes. In an electrical storm, you should power your equipment down and unplug it from the wall, if possible.

If I didn't know better I would have thought you sounded like shilling for ZeroSurge.

bdwilcox wrote:BTW, APC is always a good UPS brand. Tripp-Lite is good as well. I'm sure other people can recommend some but those are the ones I've had the best luck with.

Is CyberPower any good?

The Model M is not for the faint of heart. You either like them or hate them.

The short answer is that I'd like to do both smooth over glitches and make a clean shut down in case of a total power failure. I'm not looking to ride out a significant length failure (as some of my friends do

An answer without numbers explains why some of your replies are vague, misleading, or just wrong.

Your UPS power is defined by a number located where power connects to that appliance. You record and sum each. For example, a high performance desktop consumes typically 200 watts. Therefore it is a 350 watt consumption. (The naive will then recommend 500 and 800 watt supplies to only do what the 350 watt supply is doing). Monitor may have a 60 watt number. Record and sum all those numbers in watts, VA, or amperes.

Now, a UPS typically is as cheap as possible. For example, its battery life expectancy is maybe 3 years. So you look at your power consumption. Then maybe double that wattage for the UPS - so that the UPS can do fast degrading and still provide sufficient power 3 or more years later.

The technically naive are told what to think rather than learn what it means. For example AVR and other functions are already made completely irrelevant by the power supply. View output of a typical 120 volt UPS when in battery backup mode. This one outputs two 200 volts square waves with a spike of up to 270 volts between those square waves. And that is perfectly ideal power to all computers because all computer power supplies are so robust. Even do those AVR and other functions - better. You don't need all they hyped 'miracle' solutions.

A UPS power output can be so dirty as to be harmful to small electric motors and power strip protectors. And because all computers are so robust – make ‘dirtiest’ UPS power irrelevant – then you don’t need all that nonsense hyped by the electrically naïve such as power conditioning and AVR.

Up top are how to answer your original question with numbers. Lower half demonstrates why so many hyped nonsense such as AVR. Nonsense comes from those told how to think from retail brochures. Who did not always demand spec numbers. Sum up power numbers. Double it (or something less) because a UPS quickly degrades. Only useful answer means numbers.

Actually, there's a reason to get a UPS with AVR that is independent of what you've just said.

If you have really dirty power (lots of spikes/sags) and a standby UPS without AVR, the UPS will switch to the inverter and back very frequently, since the inverter will kick in every time the line voltage goes out of spec. This is not good for the UPS or the battery.

just brew it! wrote: If you have really dirty power (lots of spikes/sags) and a standby UPS without AVR, the UPS will switch to the inverter and back very frequently, since the inverter will kick in every time the line voltage goes out of spec. This is not good for the UPS or the battery.

How much would power sag before any electronics is affected? Incandescent lamps must dim less than 50%. Again, numbers. How often is power causing dimming to less than 50%? Well, that means refrigerator, dish washer, and air conditioner are being harmed. And is also perfectly ideal power for computers, TVs, stereos, etc.

If you have severe sags, then the AVR must be moved to motorized appliances that are harmed by sags. IOW just another reason why utilities must carefully regulate voltage levels. Sags of more than 5% can be harmful to less robust appliances such as the washing machine and vacuum cleaner. But that is not what myths and hearsay promote.

The UPS has only one function. Data protection. To maintain power so that a word document can be saved or so a recording might finish. The UPS with AVR and other fancy 'solutions' is recommended when numbers are ignored. What is ideal power to stereo equipment? Voltage can drop so low that a bulb dims to 50% intensity. That is ideal power to electronics.

That answers the OP's question. AVR is often hyped when a consumer did not demand facts and numbers. When outright lies claim low voltage can harm electronics. Nonsense. Low voltage that is ideal for electronics may be harmful to the garage door opener. But retail myths forget to mention that. Ignoring numbers is essential to protecting a myth. They just forget to mention how dim a bulb must be before electronics or computers might power off. Power off only causes loss of unsaved data.

On-line UPSes are expensive and inefficient, cheaper ones produce square waves and most are overkill for home applications.

ZeroSurge holds the exclusive patent for its technology. Every government and military application I've contracted for has stipulated ZeroSurge or one of its licensees. They are literally down the road from me and I buy their stuff over the counter; they're a fine bunch of people. I have no connections to them other than being their customer.

I don't have much experience with CyberPower other than seeing them in every retail outlet on Earth. I've never seen a CyberPower UPS in a server room or datacenter and that concerns me.

As far as automatic voltage regulation being a sham, that's BS. Regulating voltage to equipment prolongs the life of that equipment. Extended brown-outs, sags, overvoltages and spikes all put stress on a computer's power circuitry and shorten its life. AVR is cheap insurance and should be a standard in whatever UPS you buy.

bdwilcox wrote: Regulating voltage to equipment prolongs the life of that equipment. Extended brown-outs, sags, overvoltages and spikes all put stress on a computer's power circuitry and shorten its life.

Name each part overstressed or harmed by a brownout. To make that claim, you must list each part damaged by low voltage. AND numbers (ie manufacturer datasheets) that support your accusation.

The OP asked for backup power. How does a series mode filter from Zerosurge provide backup power? It doesn't. Please read datasheets before knowing something. And please read what the OP asks before posting here.

Now, you claimed low voltage causes electronics damage. Post each component damaged by that low voltage. And numbers from its manufacturer that says so. Also explain why international design standards require electronics to never be harmed by low voltage. Why does one standard have this phrase – in all capital letters – in the low voltage region? “No Damage Region”. Because low voltage must never cause harm to electronics.

Claim made without numbers is classic junk science reasoning. No way to be honest in a politically correct manner. Where are those datasheet numbers? Why are you recommending a series mode filter as a backup power supply? For too many, hearsay is sufficient to have knowledge. AVR is how to sell grossly overpriced (higher profit) equipment to the naive.

"For electronics, it is generally not recommended to vary the voltage up or down. The supply regulators in side will compensate for small variations, but if large enough, the equipment will start to misbehave and/or some parts could be overstressed."

"Sometimes the device or appliance just quits working when the voltage gets too low, or sometimes (especially with electronic devices like computers)they start operating strangely."

So much for your brilliant theories there, Poindexter. We should have known you're smarter than the entire electronics industry combined, you know, who are just out to screw the consumer with their "voodoo magic marketing". Now, little boy, why don't you go back to your books and leave reality to us adults who have to deal with it.

And while you're at it, why don't you learn to read? "Don't put too much faith in the surge suppressing capabilities of UPSes and mainstream surge suppressors since they use MOVs. If you're serious about reducing spikes, put a ZeroSurge surge suppressor between the outlet and your UPS." Amazing what you can learn when you're not blinded by your own brilliance.

So, OP, if you want to save $20 by listening to this arrogant, condescending, know-it-all pedant, be my guest. But if dirty, unregulated power causes flakey behavior or an early death to your PC or its components, don't say I didn't warn you.

Forget "hurting electronics". I was actually under the impression that sagging power (brownouts?) means not enough power and the computer will just shutdown below a certain threshold for a certain time (let's say it sags below 20% nominal for more than 0.2s, long enough for the PSU to behave like you unplug the thing?). So in the interest of "uninterrupted" to keep working, AVR keeps your computer humming along?

I don't know much as I'm not into the power side of things, so feel free to correct.

The Model M is not for the faint of heart. You either like them or hate them.

Flying Fox wrote: I was actually under the impression that sagging power (brownouts?) means not enough power and the computer will just shutdown below a certain threshold for a certain time (let's say it sags below 20% nominal for more than 0.2s, long enough for the PSU to behave like you unplug the thing?).

Computers must even work uninterrupted for a period of no power. This is important since a UPS takes times to switch between a direct to AC connection and power from battery. This is also how all electronics see a power off.

As long as the regulator can obtain sufficient current from its filters, then that regulator maintains an uninterrupted power. This occurs even if a power switch disconnects AC power. When the regulator can no longer maintain that power, then it simply shuts off. This causes output voltages to slowly fade to zero.

When does a disk drive (for example) first learn of power off? When output voltages slowly fade to zero. Upon observing that fading voltage, the disk drive finishes what it is doing and powers off accordingly. Peripherals (ie disk drives) learn about a power off only when voltage suddenly starts to fade. To computer peripherals, power off (due to a normal shutdown, a yanked power cord, a utility interruption, or due to an extreme brownout) appear similar. Therefore electronics respond same to each.

Let me see if I can inject a little clarity here. (I may not succeed, but whatever...)

1. Even a non-AVR UPS will protect equipment from under/over voltage. The difference is that a standby UPS without AVR capabilities does this by switching over to its inverter, while an AVR UPS can do this while continuing to run the equipment on mains power (but at a much lower cost than a fully online UPS that runs on the inverter 24/7). As I've already noted, this will help preserve battery capacity in environments with really crappy power, thereby ensuring that the battery capacity is there when you need it to deal with a real outage. Depending on the quality of your mains power, AVR may or may not be an important feature to have.

2. The price difference on APC's site between a non-AVR 500VA unit (CS series) and a similar unit with AVR (LS series) is only 9%. This hardly qualifies as selling "grossly overpriced (higher profit) equipment to the naive".

3. Unless you're willing to pay top dollar for surge suppressors -- e.g. the ZeroSurge units mentioned above, which cost more than an entire consumer-grade UPS! -- surge suppressors eventually need to be replaced because the MOVs wear out. I'd much rather be replacing a separate external surge suppressor than replacing the UPS. Putting a surge suppressor upstream of the UPS (between the UPS and the wall outlet) is cheap insurance against wearing out the surge suppression circuitry inside the UPS.

4. Yes, putting a surge suppressor downstream (on the load side) of a UPS is a bad idea. Most UPS vendors warn against this -- just don't do it!

The short answer is that I'd like to do both smooth over glitches and make a clean shut down in case of a total power failure. I'm not looking to ride out a significant length failure (as some of my friends do

An answer without numbers explains why some of your replies are vague, misleading, or just wrong.

Well, if I had numbers, I'd give you those. Would you rather I made something up? I have cancer and am on SS Disability Insurance. I got the new rig from the milk of human kindness (IOW other people paid for it). I don't have the money to buy a wattmeter that will essentially be a use once item for me.

I don't know the normal power draws of the components. I could blow smoke up your rear, but I decided to give out the facts as I knew them and answer, as honestly as possible, questions when raised. This is why I added the specs of the rig to my signature.

Because of people chiming in late with more available money, I have the opportunity to add one more item. The candidates are A) one more set of 2 x 2 GB memory, B) another spinning hard drive of some stripe, C) a TV tuner (the old box had an All-In-Wonder), D) a card/stick reader or E) a UPS. I'm told that doing A would be nice, but not nice enough at this time to justify immediately dropping the 4 GB in. The guy who put the computer together argues that I shouldn't need more space any time soon, so B is just vanity. I liked being able to record and watch cable on my computer, but it wasn't something that got used all that much. I have one card or stick - a USB thumb drive - and the Antec has front panel USB ports, so no real use for D. That leaves E. My old apartment is a short distance from here (in a complicated story, I was forced to move because of Code Violations I had nothing to do with, online friends took pity on my in my financial distress and sent quite a bit of money to help with the move, local friends were impressed and got together - using much of their own, but also some of the leftover money from the online contributions and a little bit of mine - to build me a new computer, working with me on the specs) and the power there had a history over the time I lived there of glitching about at least once every 90 days or so - long enough to cause the microwave clock to blink and reboot the computer - and the power went down, mostly from thunderstorms, maybe twice a year on average. I'd like to not subject my shiny new box to those kinds of fluctuations. The allure of power conditioning is also quite strong for me.

Hopefully, that conveys what I know, what I can measure and why I want a UPS.

westom wrote: Your UPS power is defined by a number located where power connects to that appliance. You record and sum each. For example, a high performance desktop consumes typically 200 watts. Therefore it is a 350 watt consumption. (The naive will then recommend 500 and 800 watt supplies to only do what the 350 watt supply is doing). Monitor may have a 60 watt number. Record and sum all those numbers in watts, VA, or amperes.

Now, a UPS typically is as cheap as possible. For example, its battery life expectancy is maybe 3 years. So you look at your power consumption. Then maybe double that wattage for the UPS - so that the UPS can do fast degrading and still provide sufficient power 3 or more years later.

The technically naive are told what to think rather than learn what it means. For example AVR and other functions are already made completely irrelevant by the power supply. View output of a typical 120 volt UPS when in battery backup mode. This one outputs two 200 volts square waves with a spike of up to 270 volts between those square waves. And that is perfectly ideal power to all computers because all computer power supplies are so robust. Even do those AVR and other functions - better. You don't need all they hyped 'miracle' solutions.

A UPS power output can be so dirty as to be harmful to small electric motors and power strip protectors. And because all computers are so robust – make ‘dirtiest’ UPS power irrelevant – then you don’t need all that nonsense hyped by the electrically naïve such as power conditioning and AVR.

Up top are how to answer your original question with numbers. Lower half demonstrates why so many hyped nonsense such as AVR. Nonsense comes from those told how to think from retail brochures. Who did not always demand spec numbers. Sum up power numbers. Double it (or something less) because a UPS quickly degrades. Only useful answer means numbers.

Last edited by LoneHowler on Thu May 20, 2010 9:25 am, edited 1 time in total.

Assuming the stuff in your sig is all you have to plug into a potential UPS, we should be able to do a pretty good educated estimate of your power draw. If you have a router or a couple of small things to connect just post them and we may be able to look up specs (on said devices or similar) and put in an estimate too. There is no need to get really accurate numbers anyway, because:

westom wrote:The naive will then recommend 500 and 800 watt supplies to only do what the 350 watt supply is doing

We don't do that here. May be he was referring to a different forum.

We were one of the first few forums to recommend real usage-based power consumption instead of just looking at labels. We also have been looking at the 12V amps for a long time while the kiddie sites keep screaming "1000W!!!11!!!one!1eleventy!11".

The Model M is not for the faint of heart. You either like them or hate them.

Flying Fox wrote:Assuming the stuff in your sig is all you have to plug into a potential UPS, we should be able to do a pretty good educated estimate of your power draw. If you have a router or a couple of small things to connect just post them and we may be able to look up specs (on said devices or similar) and put in an estimate too. There is no need to get really accurate numbers anyway, because:

westom wrote:The naive will then recommend 500 and 800 watt supplies to only do what the 350 watt supply is doing

We don't do that here. May be he was referring to a different forum.

We were one of the first few forums to recommend real usage-based power consumption instead of just looking at labels. We also have been looking at the 12V amps for a long time while the kiddie sites keep screaming "1000W!!!11!!!one!1eleventy!11".

Okay... the components from the signature "i7-860, MSI P55-GD65, A-Data DDR3 1600 2x2GB, MSI R5750-PM2D1G, A-Data ASINTS-80GM-CSA 80 GB SSD, 2 TB Samsung F3EG, 750 GB Samsung Spinpoint 7200 RPM, ASUS DRW-24B1ST/BLK/B/AS, Antec 300 case (it came with two fans and I added two more - there is a mount for one more additional fan), OCZ StealthXStream 700 W P/S, Acer AL2016 W monitor" are the base. Nothing is overclocked at this time (but there is always the possibility) Those items are spread over two outlets with each outlet having its own power strip/surge suppressor. Additional items plugged into those strips are the Laser Jet 2300, a Cisco/Linksys WRT54GS2 V1 router, a webSTAR cable modem, a set of 2 sat, 1 sub Altec-Lansings, a 250 GB Acomdata external (which may have up and died on me), a GE 27998GE5-B phone (I have a corded phone handy to plug in if the power goes - it is just that the current positioning is the most convenient), a Moxi Box DVR and a 27" CRT Sansui TV. A possible add is an HP Photosmart 7150 (if it still works, which we haven't established). A regular table lamp with a CFL will eventually get plugged into the right hand outlet (I'm thinking outside even the surge protection, but am willing to be talked into putting it on the battery in order to have light at first). Right now, the old box and the borrowed monitor are hooked in as well, but they will be going away. Obviously quite a bit of that can go outside battery protection but inside surge protection if I understand some of the previous posts correctly

The computer is still about 350 watts. Even doubling the number of fans results in almost zero power increase. Now what are watt numbers for other devices? Read each number off its label because that number (which is higher than the actual consumption) is relevant to how much power the UPS must actually provide. Nobody can provide an honest answer without those numbers especially when some devices in your list (ie CRT) can have significant power differences depending on age, design, and other factors. Post wattage numbers. Then have an answer without speculation and future surprises.

Otherwise just buy a 600 or 750 watt UPS. That ballpark number answers the question and you learned nothing from the experience.

just brew it! wrote: 3. Unless you're willing to pay top dollar for surge suppressors -- e.g. the ZeroSurge units mentioned above, which cost more than an entire consumer-grade UPS! -- surge suppressors eventually need to be replaced because the MOVs wear out.

Where are Zerosurge numeric specs that list each type of surge and protection from that surge? Even Zerosurge does not claim to protect from typically destructive surges. That Zerosurge is, at best, supplementary protection. Even its safety ground wire bypasses the protection. Did Zerosurge also forget to mention that - as well as provide no protection numbers?

Protection is always - always - about where energy dissipates. How does that Zerosurge absorb surges that are hundreds of thousands of joules? You made the claim (Zerosurge doesn't). So let's inject a little clarity here. You have no numbers. Even your MOV criticisms are only found in a Zerosurge retail propaganda sheet. Not found in anything that an engineer would read.

Science was well understood and used even for direct lightning strikes - even 100 years ago. It is that effective. Well proven for that long. Even the NIST (US government research agency) says what every effective protector must do:> You cannot really suppress a surge altogether, nor "arrest" it. What these protective devices do is> neither suppress nor arrest a surge, but simply divert it to ground, where it can do no harm.

Effective protectors (using MOVs) earth direct lightning strikes – and remain functional. How can this be when a Zerosurge brochure says otherwise? Why do high reliability facilities always earth a ‘whole house’ protector; not use your series mode filter?

Meanwhile, the NIST is blunter about your post:> A very important point to keep in mind is that your surge protector will work by diverting the surges to ground.> The best surge protection in the world can be useless if grounding is not done properly.

Why did Zerosurge not discuss earthing? I defined your Zerosurge as ineffective. The NIST is blunter – calls it “useless”. Your Zerosurge, at best, is supplementary protection. Ineffective without an earthed ‘whole house’ protector. Costs tens or hundreds of times more money. And does nothing for the OP's problem.

You seem to know an awful lot for someone who never learned the science, never read anything but sales brochures, and did not even read the OP's question.

Were you born a douchebag or did you go to school to become one? Maybe you should have taken Sally Struther's offer to become a gunsmith rather than a douchebag. Actually, I take that back. You made a good choice because you obviously excel in your chosen field.

I find it rather amusing, though disconcerting, that you constantly accuse me of not reading things ("You...did not even read the OP's question.") yet you are obviously incapable of reading what I wrote: "And remember, nothing stops lightning strikes. In an electrical storm, you should power your equipment down and unplug it from the wall, if possible."

So you go now, throw on your propeller beanie, pick up your favorite bread-board, and dream some more about what a woman's touch feels like. And stay out of our way because those of us in the real world have work to do. Pedantic little piss-ants like you are nothing more than an annoying buzzing in our ears, myopic little stumbling blocks that the world throws in the way of people who actually get things done. Go throw your invective somewhere else; someplace where people actually care about your academic, ivory tower bloviation. Every federal contract I've ever worked on, most especially DOD, has demanded ZeroSurge or ZeroSurge licensee equipment. But what do they know, right? Next time they ask for it, I'll reference them to you so you can enlighten them with the aura of your brilliance. OK, scholar?

Anyway, I would buy the biggest APC or Tripp-Lite you can afford that provides AVR. Seeing your financial circumstances, I would shy away from my usual advice of over-buying since that will only jack the price up. For a setup like yours and all the things you're going to plug into it, I would normally advise an 1100VA+ UPS in order to give you a reasonable amount of run-time. But with money being tight, a 900VA would do. Just don't expect extended runtimes with it; you'll be looking at enough time to save your work and shut down safely. I would estimate about 10, maybe 15 minutes of runtime with a 900VA for your current system.

I have an APC1500va UPS that I bought back in 2001 and I'm still using the original battery. Anyway, it claims the battery is bad but my i7-920(stock) 4GB ram, 22" LCD, and ATI4850 still gets a good 10min of run time on it.

As for AVR, yeah it has that, but I'm not sure how crazy important it is. Obviously for $300 that I paid for it, it should have it. My Antec TP750, was reviewed a few months back and they tested dropping the in line voltage down to 80v and the PSU was still putting out perfect 3.3/5/12v. Efficiency dropped which will cause more heat, but my PSU's fan doesn't even turn on since it runs so cool anyway. I'd still prefer AVR and assume any UPS w/o it is cheap.

Side note: My first UPS was CyberPower, but I returned it the same day I bought it when I let it charge for 4 hours and unplugged it to test and the power dropped out and it started to smoke. Could've just been bad luck, but it didn't even have a fuse/breaker and I was scrabbling to figure out how to make the unit stop supplying power to the burn out piece. Melting plastic... uhhggg.. head-ache. Anyway, I find it weird that Cyber-Power offered an identical VA rating as APC, but for 1/2 the price. I'm not sure about current pricing.

Side Note 2: Someone recently had a review of the ATI 5770 and their test system was an i7-920 OC'd to 3.9ghz and 1.65v 2ghz memory, ATI 5770, and a mechanical HD and it was pulling 245watts at the wall during their stress test which loaded the CPU and GPU at the same time. I'd still use a watt meter.