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Re: Offseason News, Trades, Rumors, Etc.

This is not James Dolan logic. We are talking about pairing the number 3 guys in win shares last year with the number 2 guy in win shares last year. This is not pairing Carmelo Anthony with Tyson Chandler, Amar'e Stoudamire with a walker, and Ray "Buffet" Felton. This is pairing Kevin Love with Kyrie Irving and Lebron James. You move heaven and earth to make it happen. Andrew Wiggins has not played a game!

I think it's James Dolan logic. Who offered anything close to Wiggins so far? That's the key question.

I look at recent Love rumors (Warriors, Boston), they don't include anything as valuable as Wiggins. I look at Carmelo, Dwight, DWill, CP3 trades. They didn't include anyone as valuable as Wiggins.

You are basically saying, Love>Wiggins, and I agree. But nothing so far suggests that they can't get Love for less.
You say the Wolves are idiots if they don't get Wiggins for Love. But a few years ago you could have as successfully claimed that the Magic or the Hornets would be idiots if they don't get some massive asset for Dwight and CP3. Calling them idiots means nothing, if the market doesn't dictate it. The Wolves can't just refuse the best deal available, pack their bags and go home saying "we got nothing for Love but at least we aren't idiots."

And so far I don't see it. Maybe there are some great offers that we haven't heard about. But anything we heard about isn't comparable to Wiggins. The way I see it, if the Cavs offer Wiggins, they'd be negotiating against themselves just like James Dolan did back then. Even if they offer Bennett, Waiters, Thompson, Miami 1st round pick, that would still be much better than other teams seem to be offering so far. Love, LeBron, Kyrie is nice. It's just that Love, LeBron, Kyrie and Wiggins is nicer.

Re: Offseason News, Trades, Rumors, Etc.

But if you're Minny and you know Cleveland wants Love, there is no reason to not hold firm for Wiggins. The Cavs didn't get Lebron so he could play with Wiggins. I think that is clear. Minny should know that. If Cleveland can get Love without giving up Wiggins then great for them, but if I'm Minny I'm telling them to belly up to the bar if they want to pair Love with Lebron, and if I'm Cleveland I'm going to do that. I understand what you're saying, but I don't think that Waiters/Bennett/pick is that much better or even better at all than what Golden State or Boston can put together. Adding Thompson is a nice idea, but he's not the prize. And if you're Cleveland and you miss out on Love, then you're probably not winning the title this year, which they may be OK with, but I would guess they'd rather pair Love with Lebron now given the choice.

My point is simple, if the deal is inches away from being completed and hte only hold up is Minny on the other end saying you have to swap Wiggins for Waiters, then I'm doing that all day. Especially if you get to hang onto Thompson in that scenario.

Re: Offseason News, Trades, Rumors, Etc.

Love is good but I wouldn't trade Wiggins for him. Lebron is gonna make Wiggins transition to the NBA so much easier.

Agreed. Love has an injury history that'd I'd be worried about. Plus, Love, for as great as he is stuffing the stat sheet, has barely won games. How is he different from anyone else that puts up numbers on bad teams? I'm just sayin'. Numbers aren't everything.

First time in a long time, I've been happy with the team that was constructed, and now they struggle. I blame the coach.

Re: Offseason News, Trades, Rumors, Etc.

Agreed. Love has an injury history that'd I'd be worried about. Plus, Love, for as great as he is stuffing the stat sheet, has barely won games. How is he different from anyone else that puts up numbers on bad teams? I'm just sayin'. Numbers aren't everything.

Re: Offseason News, Trades, Rumors, Etc.

The poster "pacertom" since this forum began (and before!). I changed my name here to "Slick Pinkham" in honor of the imaginary player That Bobby "Slick" Leonard picked late in the 1971 ABA draft (true story!).
I'm (maybe) back after being repetedly banned, merely for supporting a different NFL team than do certain forum moderators.

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The Spurs obviously don't work in it, but the Spurs don't really work in any statistical category. Deandre Jordan is obviously an outlier but otherwise I think that list tells a pretty interesting story.

Re: Offseason News, Trades, Rumors, Etc.

You just flat out wouldn't trade Wiggins for Love? I think that's crazy. Wiggins wasn't even the consensus number 1 this year. He wouldn't have even been the pick if Embiid hadn't broken his foot.

Nah. Only thing I really like about Love is how crazy at rebounding he is. He can score the ball too from pretty Mich anywhere but the Cavs already have Lebron and Irving for that. Wiggins athleticism is gonna make teams even worry more. Wiggins is tall and seems like one good thing about him is his defense.

Re: Offseason News, Trades, Rumors, Etc.

Well don't explain why you seem to like win shares in the NBA. It's such a team game. Certainly there are a few guys that can carry their team, but you want to buy win shares for a guy that can't even get his team to .500. I just think that's ridiculous.

First time in a long time, I've been happy with the team that was constructed, and now they struggle. I blame the coach.

Re: Offseason News, Trades, Rumors, Etc.

Are there statistical anomolies with win shares? I love Kevin Love's game, but he's never really led a team to anything. The point behind win shares is that the player helps you win games, right? Shouldn't a guy who puts up a massive win share...win a bunch of games? I'm just ignorant as to the stat, and if it's really relevant.

They do somewhat reflect wins. Love has 14 win shares, the Wolves won 40 games. That sounds about right. Take Love out of that team, I doubt they win much more than 26 games.

I think it's a nice enough stat, better than PER for example, but of course it's not perfect. It puts too much value on scoring %s, IMO. Not that it's not important, but they just get overvalued and there are some extreme weird cases. Like, win shares think that Tyson Chandler in his prime is about as good an offensive player as prime Hakeem Olajuwon.

Also, it doesn't capture defense well, it reflects mostly team defense. For example, that stat likes Boozer quite a bit because it thinks that Boozer is a very good defender. It thinks so because other teams don't score many points with Boozer on the floor, but that's obviously got more to do with Noah, Butler, Deng, Taj Gibson and Thibodeau. Win shares can't see that well.

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Re: Offseason News, Trades, Rumors, Etc.

Ray Allen is willing to play for the veteran minimum in Cleveland, according to sources. #Cavs
— Probasketballdraft (@Probballdraft) July 11, 2014

Second NBA source: The Warriors have no plans to offer Klay Thompson to Minnesota, even if CLE comes in aggressively for Kevin Love.— Tim Kawakami (@timkawakami) July 11, 2014

According to the Las Vegas Hotel & Casino, Cleveland is now a 4-1 favorite to win the 2014-15 NBA Championship (Miami is 100-1).— Adam Schefter (@AdamSchefter) July 11, 2014

The poster "pacertom" since this forum began (and before!). I changed my name here to "Slick Pinkham" in honor of the imaginary player That Bobby "Slick" Leonard picked late in the 1971 ABA draft (true story!).
I'm (maybe) back after being repetedly banned, merely for supporting a different NFL team than do certain forum moderators.

The Following User Says Thank You to Slick Pinkham For This Useful Post: