Re: Politics

Giovanna wrote:

malna, do you feel like the hatred for its own sake is truly driven by fear, or is the sentiment more protectionist than concern for life?

Fair warning: what follows is my diagnosis which is deeply unappetizing while quite possibly not even true. I can't tell for sure, Gio. I think part of it, for many people, is genuine concern for lives, not just their own but their families'. Another huge part is severe islamophobia in eastern Europe. Small part is also fear for national identities - after the WW2 countries like Poland have been practically completely homogenous. But the ugliest, nastiest part, in my humble opinion, would be the superiority complex sourcing from... the inferiority complex. I'll try to explain. See, if for whatever unimaginable reason, say, Americans were knocking on Poland's door, I bet people would roll a red carpet for them and our prime minister would once again "Welcome in Poland!" like she enthusiastically greeted American troops just recently. Polish solidarity seems to extent also to nations considered more or less as equals, if they are in need of help. Syrians? Yeah, no. Not many will say it outright but they're spoken of like they were worse kind of human beings. And it's easy to dismiss someone once you've dehumanized them. So, that's convenient. Quite possibly it is no coincidence that countries in eastern Europe like Poland and Hungary are the ones most vehemently opposed to bringing in refugees from Middle East* (there's an important distinction, I'll get back to it later). We've come a long way but we're still the EU's pariah. So. Inferiority complex, probably, taken out on others in the shape of superiority complex: "anyone said we should never have become part of the EU? We're Europeans, we're so European because just take one look at them!" But of course I speculate.

* It is important to point out that since Russian invasion on Ukraine and throughout the ongoing war, Poland has already taken in 1.5 million Ukrainian refugees. From what I hear, this number is higher than that of all Middle East refugees the other EU countries took in combined. More and more Ukrainians come our way and to be fair there's very little protest to that happening (just some nutjobs on the internet, a good chunk of them being Russian trolls). There is a sea of bad blood between Poles and Ukrainians but culturally we're close and, historically speaking, well used to living "under the same roof", within borders of one country.

Re: Politics

Thank you for that! It was really interesting to hear a different POV. Americans are very sheltered by our uh, huge ocean, and rather secure borders. (At least in this timeline. I know mirror universe president sees it differently.) You've given me a lot to think about!

It never occurred to me to think Poland would be a pariah in the EU! From where we're standing there are countries that seem uh, a lot more like baggage, but most of what I know about Poland relates to WWII. And in that sense, I could definitely see why you guys would feel especially protective of your identity, and have that sort of backwards inferiority complex that drives this sort of attitude. Is like if Poland's cultural balance shifts to the east at all, you'll seem more and more like the countries that are not allowed in? I mean in the sense that France could be like 99% Muslim and probably still not have someone suggest it doesn't belong in the EU. If that's a real and present threat to Poland, it's unfortunate, because being afraid of being cast off like that will definitely drive a lot of unhealthy views.

It's a really difficult situation, especially for you guys over there. Saying Syrians are garbage, etc, shuts down any rational conversation that should take place, like about how to help them adjust to the radically different cultural norms they now live in. For example, the Syrians that have come here have basically been told point blank that gender norms in their culture don't fly here. There's definitely some stumbling, and it's frankly not the lily white redneck in the hockey jersey that harasses me at midnight if I'm walking alone, but those things take time, and as long as the expectations are laid out for everyone, refusing them seems cruel.

There's a lot of ways to help but they involve very uncomfortable and very un-PC conversations. But there's decent human beings, or Donald Trump, and no middle ground where you can say "Muslims are welcome here, but if you're from an especially radical sect, you're going to have to rethink a few attitudes to adjust." When it's a question of identity like it sounds over there, that's gotta be a lot more complicated.

Re: Politics

Giovanna wrote:

those things take time, and as long as the expectations are laid out for everyone, refusing them seems cruel

It is cruel and unworthy of a human being to turn their back on other humans under dire circumstances. And yet, this is what happens repeatedly in history, we can't seem to learn. Ideally, risks should be a challenge to tackle to our best ability, alas in reality they become an excuse to wash hands clean and do nothing.

I'm glad I didn't bore you to death with my perspective, I was a little afraid of that. Honestly, having read your post I feel kind of inspired to start a thread here on culture clash because, wow, do I have stories! Hmm...

Re: Politics

Yasha wrote:

The point of educating and debating is not just to try and sway the person you're talking to, which has a fairly limited chance of success anyway, but also to have a chance at making your points to everyone else, and possibly helping them to understand why white supremacy is a bullshit ideology for losers who have nothing else to be proud of.

However... macklemore hair frog man is very punchable. I can understand if the dude meant to debate and was just overcome by his punchability. Cannot say I wouldn't do the same.

I saw this before I read this post, but that Richard Spencer getting punched in the face is still the best thing I've seen in years/all my life.

Also, showing him repeatedly getting punched in the face is amazing! *.*

Re: Politics

This is an article I found a little while ago about a very likely driving force in modern American politics and debate, and it's in a film review/critique site (Film Crit Hulk, to be precise!). Even the writer themselves finds it baffling that the situation got so far that this was possible. Though you could say that social interaction and politics are one and the same... Anyways, this actually opened my eyes to a lot of things.

Re: Politics

malna wrote:

I'm glad I didn't bore you to death with my perspective, I was a little afraid of that. Honestly, having read your post I feel kind of inspired to start a thread here on culture clash because, wow, do I have stories! Hmm...

That would be awesome!

I have definitely had some odd experiences with culture clash. Often the most jarring of them happen in Canada, and I think it's because Americans aren't so different generally, so when something doesn't fit I'm more surprised by it. In many ways I feel culture clash more often in say, New Orleans, than I did in fucking Paris. But it was, in part, because I wasn't expecting that in NoLa. I really haven't traveled enough to suit my tastes, and probably never will, but I'd love to hear more about your side of things! I honestly know like...almost nothing about Poland, much as it shames me to admit. But it sounds a lot more like it's pressed between two worlds than I really took for granted!