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Honestly, while Clay was certainly out of line as well, I find Skyla's offense to be worse. Nothing against Skyla, I still like her as a character, but at least Clay was fighting his battles and allowing challengers to prove their strength that way. Skyla's methods are highly questionable. While we know that Skyla herself wouldn't lie about it, her methods would be far too easy for someone to exploit. Take the person she was up against who had Emolga, Boldore, and Zebstrika. For all we know, Boldore might have had an entire moveset of Ground-type attacks and Emolga and Zebstrika might not have known a single Electric attack. It'd be far too easy for someone to slip by based on Skyla's assumptions. Again, nothing personal against Skyla, but her battle methods are not only highly suspect but also easily exploitable by sneaky trainers.

I find it funny that you're attacking Skyla's methods while you completely ignore Volkner's; the guy was literally giving out badges for free. At least Skyla tested the challengers, even if she didn't actually battle them. I'm honestly tired of people bashing female characters just because they do things their own way. It's honestly sickening that so many people side with characters like Cilan just because he's portrayed as being "fabulous" and "correct" all the time. It's indoctrination at its best.

I find it funny that you're attacking Skyla's methods while you completely ignore Volkner's; the guy was literally giving out badges for free. At least Skyla tested the challengers, even if she didn't actually battle them. I'm honestly tired of people bashing female characters just because they do things their own way. It's honestly sickening that so many people side with characters like Cilan just because he's portrayed as being "fabulous" and "correct" all the time. It's indoctrination at its best.

I did mention Valkner earlier.....

also GalladeRocks wasnt attacking Skyla at all they said they liked the character! all Gallade said was that her methods are questionable e.g

Take the person she was up against who had Emolga, Boldore, and Zebstrika. For all we know, Boldore might have had an entire moveset of Ground-type attacks and Emolga and Zebstrika might not have known a single Electric attack. It'd be far too easy for someone to slip by based on Skyla's assumptions

This is a true and valid point look at Iris's Emolga its part Flying type yet doesnt know a single Flying attack....

Skyla didnt test her challengers she just looked at their Pokemon and made assumptions on how the battle would go! Tesing her challengers would be testing there knowledge of Pokemon type and Moves e.g

Which of your Pokemon would you use against my Swoobat/Unfezant?
What Moves does your Pokemon Know that would be Super effective againt my Swanna?
How would you react to this Scenareo? [insert battle sequence]

Skyla doing Air Battles wasnt "Skyla's Battle Style" it was invented so she could spend most of her time flying a plane and neglecting her duties.....

also no offence Kira but you have done your fair share of Female Character Bashing (everybody does) some characters you either love or hate

The way I see it, both Volkner and Skyla were in the wrong and should have been caught by the PIA before the gang met them, but obviously that never happened.

I don't think their methods were necessarily wrong. I just don't get why Volkner was allowed to slide while Skyla gets all the hate. Unlike Volkner, she actually assessed the challenger's Pokemon using logic, so I don't get what the big deal is. It just seems strange that Cilan and his fans got so worked up over Skyla's method of running her Gym.

Originally Posted by gpt11

I did mention Valkner earlier.....

Well sorry; I used CTRL + F to search the page for mentions of his name, but it seems you misspelled it. Ergo, I didn't see it.

Originally Posted by gpt11

also no offence Kira but you have done your fair share of Female Character Bashing (everybody does) some characters you either love or hate

Aside from criticizing the way the writers handled May and Dawn and a few arguments with their fans, I haven't been too hard on female characters.

Each Gym Leader is in charge of making their own rules for their own Gym. The Air Battles were Skyla's Gym theme, just like how the Striaton Gym's theme was selecting one of the three Leaders and Lenora's was reading the books before you could fight her.

Denying trainers the right to battle her is a theme? I'm sorry, but that's ridiculous. Gyms are there for trainers to challenge and defeat so that they earn their badge. What Skyla was doing was totally out of line, and I can't see how you'd think that it's ok. She was guessing the outcome of her battles. Ash proved that her 'air battles' were totally unreliable, so that really just cements it. Gyms can have their own little quirks, but not giving people a fair chance to earn their badge is crossing the line.

It's totally unfair to the trainers if they're not given a chance to win the badge. There's the other side of it too, like GalladeRocks mentioned. It's an easily abused system and basically lets people get badges for free, just like Volkner's Gym. I honestly cannot find anything right about Skyla's ignorance of Gym battling.

In addition, if what Skyla was doing was actually wrong, she would have been shut down or removed from the position based on what we've seen in the past.

Because it's an anime. They wanted Ash to defeat her and rekindle her love of battles or whatever. Things like this don't work like the real world; she wasn't shut down because the writers needed her Gym for a plot point.

what does that say about Clay, who blew off his own Gym regularly, or Cilan, who simply walked away from what was explicitly registered as a three-Leader Gym?

Yes, we've established that Clay was in the wrong too. Doesn't make Skyla any more right.

'Cause with my mid-youth crisis all said and done
I need to be youthfully felt, 'cause God I never felt young

And nobody at all cares about Clay's actions. Now do you see the hypocrisy? Where was Cilan's forced outrage then?

Why are we comparing Clay's actions to Skyla?

I honestly don't see what Clay did was wrong. Outside of delaying a gym. I don't think it's against the rules to delay a gym for any reason.

Clay is also a business man, who is gifted in Pokemon battles, kind of like how Giovanni is Leader of an evil organization but had time to run a gym.

Clay had other priorities. And quite frankly I don't see the problem.

It's kind of ridiculous for anyone to think "Hey you're a gym leader, I'm a challenger, stop what the **** you're doing and battle me."

Which is kind of what Ash did to Clay, just not as rude and pretentious.

This is kind of the reason why gyms do have reservations. Why would anyone expect a gym leader to stop doing what they're doing and then battle them, right there and then. Sure was it rude of Clay? Sure but no ruder than Ash thinking Clay was going to stop doing what he was doing and battle him.

As for the revival herbs, well what would be the better route. Having a "rude" challenger going to get the herbs to prove himself worthy, or having the gym leader drop what he's doing, go to some place to get herbs as a result to an unforeseen reason, and waste all that potential time not battling challengers or running his business. Sure he could've sent someone else but then that person whoever he sent would've had to deal with Team Rocket. And odds are they wouldn't have been able to stop Team Rocket from taking the Kami Trio thus no revival herbs.

How is this Ash's problem? The revival herbs are for Pokemon, it seems quite clear that something happened in the mine, that would require a whole crap load of revival herbs to take care of, something that potentially the Pokemon Center might not be able to handle.

But let's go further and presume Clay is a jerk, and let's say it was to keep the Pokemon continuing to mine, thus notifying the Pokemon center would be admitting overworking the Pokemon.

Regardless of the reason do you think Clay was really in a business position to battle Ash and ignore what the revival herbs were for.

Now Clay isn't omniscient, but through the course of actions from the writers.

- Ash was promised a battle if he got the revival herbs
- Milos Island and the Kami Trio were saved as a direct result of Ash, Iris and Cilan going to the island to receive the revival herbs.
- Ash got revival herbs and got to battle Clay.

Now you can argue the questionable actions by Clay, and argue how selfish Clay was acting, but I think in this instance, what happened was far better than any non selfless course of actions.

But let's go back to Skyla. What did she do so wrong?

Well let's say she was derelict in her duties as a gym leader, she wasn't delaying the gym battle, she was denying the chance for anyone to prove her wrong.

While yes, I will fully admit, at LEAST Skyla's methods are at least BETTER than Volkner's method of just giving people badges, let's not lie here just to justify Skyla's methods. Ash was just as pissed with Volkner's method as well as Paul, just like Cilan and Ash are pissed at Skyla for her methods.

There are trainers out there that don't want to take the easy way out, which is why Ash and Paul were upset with Sunyshore Gym, while people like Barry don't really care about earning badges the right and hard way.

Then there are people who believe that only by battling will one determine if one is worthy of a badge. Some "mind" simulation that only takes in account for types of the Pokemon involved, is very flawed, and should Skyla believe that her Pokemon are superior, what chance do these trainers have to prove her wrong. There's no concept of rechallenging Skyla, without bringing different Pokemon into the loop.

What's to stop trainers from borrowing the winning combination of Pokemon and getting freebie badges? In those exploited instances, Skyla is no better than Volkner since she would just be giving away badges, in a glorified manner as Volkner.

It's not just the types of Pokemon to consider which Skyla failed to take in account with Swoobat vs Krokorok, even if she was right in the end, even if Krokorok's ground type moves were ineffective against Skyla's Swoobat. Krokorok type wise still has a huge advantage over Swoobat for the simple fact, dark types are super effective against Swoobat. Swoobat's flying attacks to neutral damage, so Super Effective Moves>>>>Neutral Effective Moves. Any way the point is you have to consider, the Pokemon (size and shape could easily influence a battle's outcome by taking advantage of the Pokemon's natural abilities), AND their types AND their potential moves AND the skills of the trainer.

Because someone like Mick (from Krokorok's capture), who has a limited understanding of Pokemon in general, if he wasn't coached by Ash and Cilan, he'd probably lose a battle where he even had Elite 4 Pokemon, while the opponent had Battle Frontier-level Pokemon.

The problem, the main problem, the point of all this was simple.

Skyla decided based on her own mind and belief if a challenger got a badge or not WITHOUT the challenger being able to question her decision.

I have NO IDEA why anyone would condone that logic or those actions. Or why anyone is getting all upset JUST BECAUSE Ash and Cilan have a problem with it.

I really don't see why Clay's getting bashed here, the fact remains that he's not going to engage in a gym battle when the local Pokémon centre is out of there main ingredient for treating Pokémon injuries, Ash wanted a battle so he told him to and get some herbs before the battle. It's completely understandable, if he'd asked for some obscure item that was out of his own desire then I'd see the problem but since what he wanted would actually be vital at the end of a battle I fail to see the big deal. Oh and yes, Skyla was being utterly ridiculous even more so than Volkner in my opinion.

Denying trainers the right to battle her is a theme? I'm sorry, but that's ridiculous. Gyms are there for trainers to challenge and defeat so that they earn their badge. What Skyla was doing was totally out of line, and I can't see how you'd think that it's ok. She was guessing the outcome of her battles. Ash proved that her 'air battles' were totally unreliable, so that really just cements it. Gyms can have their own little quirks, but not giving people a fair chance to earn their badge is crossing the line.

Gee. I didn't know you were the authority on Gym regulations. I'm seriously shocked to see you bashing Skyla. I thought it was quite obvious that she didn't do anything wrong, and I thought I could count on you to support my arguments. But it seems I was mistaken. I don't know where your hate for Skyla stems from, but it would behoove you to look at this from a different angle. Skyla wasn't just guessing the outcome of the battles; she was clearly using logic, the same type of logic that everyone else uses when they're playing the games. I don't get why Volkner and Clay were allowed to run their Gyms their own way while Skyla gets attacked for using her head. I mean God forbid that the anime should get a female character who is as intelligent as male characters.

I honestly don't see what Clay did was wrong. Outside of delaying a gym. I don't think it's against the rules to delay a gym for any reason.

Clay is also a business man, who is gifted in Pokemon battles, kind of like how Giovanni is Leader of an evil organization but had time to run a gym.

Clay had other priorities. And quite frankly I don't see the problem.

It's kind of ridiculous for anyone to think "Hey you're a gym leader, I'm a challenger, stop what the **** you're doing and battle me."

Which is kind of what Ash did to Clay, just not as rude and pretentious.

This is kind of the reason why gyms do have reservations. Why would anyone expect a gym leader to stop doing what they're doing and then battle them, right there and then. Sure was it rude of Clay? Sure but no ruder than Ash thinking Clay was going to stop doing what he was doing and battle him.

As for the revival herbs, well what would be the better route. Having a "rude" challenger going to get the herbs to prove himself worthy, or having the gym leader drop what he's doing, go to some place to get herbs as a result to an unforeseen reason, and waste all that potential time not battling challengers or running his business. Sure he could've sent someone else but then that person whoever he sent would've had to deal with Team Rocket. And odds are they wouldn't have been able to stop Team Rocket from taking the Kami Trio thus no revival herbs.

How is this Ash's problem? The revival herbs are for Pokemon, it seems quite clear that something happened in the mine, that would require a whole crap load of revival herbs to take care of, something that potentially the Pokemon Center might not be able to handle.

But let's go further and presume Clay is a jerk, and let's say it was to keep the Pokemon continuing to mine, thus notifying the Pokemon center would be admitting overworking the Pokemon.

Regardless of the reason do you think Clay was really in a business position to battle Ash and ignore what the revival herbs were for.

Now Clay isn't omniscient, but through the course of actions from the writers.

- Ash was promised a battle if he got the revival herbs
- Milos Island and the Kami Trio were saved as a direct result of Ash, Iris and Cilan going to the island to receive the revival herbs.
- Ash got revival herbs and got to battle Clay.

Now you can argue the questionable actions by Clay, and argue how selfish Clay was acting, but I think in this instance, what happened was far better than any non selfless course of actions.

Go watch The Mighty Accelguard to the Rescue! again. When Ash first meets Clay at the very start of the episode, Clay refuses his challenge because he has to go work in his mine. The Revival Herbs are never mentioned until Stopping the Rage of Legends! Part 1, the second time Ash sees Clay. They had nothing to do with Clay refusing the first challenge.

So in the instance of Ash's first challenge, we have Clay refusing to battle him purely because he's "got something better to do." He wasn't offering Ash a chance to get the badge and move on, he was simply demanding Ash bend his schedule around his own. If you want to make up scenarios, how is that fair to challengers who might not be able to stay in Driftveil City until he's willing to take the challenge?

I'm perfectly willing to admit the problems with Skyla's actions as soon as someone understands the hypocrisy in both the writers and fandom ignoring Clay's actions.

Or why anyone is getting all upset JUST BECAUSE Ash and Cilan have a problem with it.

That's simplifying it to an extreme. I'm bothered because almost identical behavior was ignored when Clay did it, but fetishized into "oh look how horrible she is she needs to be taught a lesson and put in her place!!!1111" when Skyla did it.

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That's simplifying it to an extreme. I'm bothered because almost identical behavior was ignored when Clay did it, but fetishized into "oh look how horrible she is she needs to be taught a lesson and put in her place!!!1111" when Skyla did it.

The difference between Clay and Skyla is that Clay actually battled. That's the point of being a Gym Leader, right? To battle? Skyla did not want to battle at all, so that's where the problem is. She delayed battles too often - no, she did them in her head. How do you know Clay did it as often as she did? Maybe Ash was the only one he delayed it for.

That's simplifying it to an extreme. I'm bothered because almost identical behavior was ignored when Clay did it, but fetishized into "oh look how horrible she is she needs to be taught a lesson and put in her place!!!1111" when Skyla did it.

Also could I point out that when Clay did delay the gym battle he of his own accord contacted the Pokémon centre to tell Nurse Joy he was ready, that shows at least a little decency on his part. He was rude I agree, but by no means unfair to the level that Skyla was.

Go watch The Mighty Accelguard to the Rescue! again. When Ash first meets Clay at the very start of the episode, Clay refuses his challenge because he has to go work in his mine. The Revival Herbs are never mentioned until Stopping the Rage of Legends! Part 1, the second time Ash sees Clay. They had nothing to do with Clay refusing the first challenge.

So in the instance of Ash's first challenge, we have Clay refusing to battle him purely because he's "got something better to do." He wasn't offering Ash a chance to get the badge and move on, he was simply demanding Ash bend his schedule around his own.

And why should Ash expect Clay to bend around his schedule.

Seriously like I said it would be like Ash said to Clay: "I'm a challenger stop the **** you're doing and battle me."

Did Ash ever try to get a reservation? No, instead he waited until Nurse Joy told him that Clay was able to battle.

Again it isn't just about a gym battle. Clay has a business to run.

If you want to make up scenarios, how is that fair to challengers who might not be able to stay in Driftveil City until he's willing to take the challenge?

Unless the challenger is dying and wants to battle Clay before he dies, and its time sensitive, I cannot see how a challenger would be unable to wait.

Like I said that's what reservations are for. Come back when you can. Just don't expect someone to drop what they're doing unless its some kind of emergency.

That's simplifying it to an extreme. I'm bothered because almost identical behavior was ignored when Clay did it, but fetishized into "oh look how horrible she is she needs to be taught a lesson and put in her place!!!1111" when Skyla did it.

What identical behavior? What Skyla's hobbies are more important than someone's career?

If Skyla was piloting a sick Pokemon to a special Pokemon center I can see how air battles would come in handy in those kinds of situations. And should Skyla be done maybe go back to actually battling challengers.

But as I keep getting reminded in real life, the real world isn't about fun, fun, and fun. Real Life is serious work. Why should Skyla have the luxury to put her hobbies over actual work?

That's not what Clay was doing, he was actually working at his second job, in fact one could argue that Pokemon battling is Clay's hobby, so it's understandable that Clay would put work over fun because again life isn't about fun, fun, fun.

I watched this two-part Gym Leader set because I was actually interested in it. I enjoyed seeing Skyla preform her air battles because it was different from the norm. Of course, Ash could've just went to another gym and battled but he wanted to battle this one. Watching this episode, I have to admit that Cilan's voice actor does a really good job with him. No one seemed to have a problem with Skyla's way of doing things besides the three guys and they didn't need to have anything to do with that gym anyway.

So, Ash sends out three Pokemon to battle the Gym Leader. Let's see what they will be.

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Seriously like I said it would be like Ash said to Clay: "I'm a challenger stop the **** you're doing and battle me."

Did Ash ever try to get a reservation? No, instead he waited until Nurse Joy told him that Clay was able to battle.

Again it isn't just about a gym battle. Clay has a business to run.

The logic that was applied to Skyla was that if she was too busy to have battles, she should resign her position. By that same logic, if Clay needs so much time to run his company that he refuses a challenge, contacts Nurse Joy to proceed with the challenge and then immediately refuses it again, he should stop being a Gym Leader and focus on running his company.

Unless the challenger is dying and wants to battle Clay before he dies, and its time sensitive, I cannot see how a challenger would be unable to wait.

Like I said that's what reservations are for. Come back when you can. Just don't expect someone to drop what they're doing unless its some kind of emergency.

There are plenty of scenarios where the challenger could conceivably not be able to wait/come back. According to your logic, it would appear you would think it's okay for Clay to not leave his (many) employees to monitor the mine for an hour to fulfill his obligations, leaving the challenger to simply go off somewhere else to get the badge.

But as I keep getting reminded in real life, the real world isn't about fun, fun, and fun. Real Life is serious work. Why should Skyla have the luxury to put her hobbies over actual work?

Well, why should Clay have the luxury to work two jobs in title but blow off one of them whenever he feels like? When you work two jobs in Real Life you can't do that.

That's not what Clay was doing, he was actually working at his second job, in fact one could argue that Pokemon battling is Clay's hobby, so it's understandable that Clay would put work over fun because again life isn't about fun, fun, fun.

Battling may be his hobby, but Gym Leader is a job.

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And nobody at all cares about Clay's actions. Now do you see the hypocrisy? Where was Cilan's forced outrage then?

... again, Clay is irrelevant. I'm debating your claim that "Skyla wasn't breaking any rules". I don't care about what Clay was doing, his breaking of the rules does not make Skyla's air battles any more right. Can you please respond to the rest of my post regarding your claim? :\

Clay's denial of Gym battles was just a way of postponing Ash's battle so the writers could have him go frolic with the Kamis; that's why nobody argued with him.

Last edited by Grey Wind; 1st July 2012 at 12:30 PM.

'Cause with my mid-youth crisis all said and done
I need to be youthfully felt, 'cause God I never felt young

Wow, question. I'm not the only one who thought that Cilan losing the battle pretty much destroyed the message totally, am I? Or that Skyla was really stupid with some of her predictions and didn't really make sense, like her imagining Swoobat confusing Stunfisk, when her Swoobat has not used a confusing move in either appearance, confusion has never meant insta-loss, and Stunfisk is an Electric type.

This has nothing to do with Satoshi or Skyla, its just the usual Dent hate, look who is "talking" about it and people didn't even bother bringing Satoshi name up at the begining.

I can't believe this crap of an argument is still going.

Tell me about it. It's actually becoming really annoying now. Everybody has the right to enjoy different characters but plain out bashing purposely trying to find reasons to argue about them is ridiculous.

The argument above is stupid. I can't believe some people actually dislike the fact Cilan got annoyed with Skyla but not with Clay when the two Gym Leaders had completely different reasons not to battle.

Skyla was flatout not battling opponents because she thought battles were pointless since she thought she predict the outcome.

Clay didn't battle Ash for ONE TIME because he needed some Revival Herbs, as soon as he got them, he battled Ash.

Jesus christ, there's a difference between never battling opponents at all, and battling when the time fits.

If you don't want to use Clay as an example of a bad Gym Leader, then there's always Volkner. Funny how everyone keeps ignoring the Sunyshore City Gym case; Volkner was just giving out badges, yet the fanbase was okay with it. Even the main characters didn't seem to mind; I think Ash might've been shocked, but everyone fails to remember that Brock (who worked in the Gym Leader business) didn't give a damn about what Volkner was doing. You didn't see him throw a temper tantrum, yet our friend Cilan went on a witch hunt the moment he realized what Skyla was doing (and she wasn't doing much harm to begin with).

If you don't want to use Clay as an example of a bad Gym Leader, then there's always Volkner. Funny how everyone keeps ignoring the Sunyshore City Gym case; Volkner was just giving out badges, yet the fanbase was okay with it. Even the main characters didn't seem to mind; I think Ash might've been shocked, but everyone fails to remember that Brock (who worked in the Gym Leader business) didn't give a damn about what Volkner was doing. You didn't see him throw a temper tantrum, yet our friend Cilan went on a witch hunt the moment he realized what Skyla was doing (and she wasn't doing much harm to begin with).

I'm not on about any other Gym Leader, i'm just howling at how ridiculous it is that people are comparing Skyla and Clay together when they had completely different reasons for not battling. Volkner was in the wrong and i never said anything otherwise.

About Brock, it would have been nice to see him get angry, but he didn't, and no one can really expect him to either, he hadn't mentioned that he was a Gym Leader since what, the OS? Cilan and Brock are two different characters, Cilan frequently states he's still a Gym Leader not to mention this is his first saga so it's still fresh. If Volkner was a Gym Leader in Kanto then it would have been more likely Brock could have gotten angry, not 8/9 years later when all traces of him being a Gym Leader has vanished.

Also, she was doing a lot of harm. She stopped people from getting badges just because they're Pokemon had disadvantages against hers (Even if the disadvantages were crap a good bit of the time like in her Swoobat Vs. Stunfisk thing) which has been shown countless times to not actually count for much.

About Brock, it would have been nice to see him get angry, but he didn't, and no one can really expect him to either, he hadn't mentioned that he was a Gym Leader since what, the OS? Cilan and Brock are two different characters, Cilan frequently states he's still a Gym Leader not to mention this is his first saga so it's still fresh. If Volkner was a Gym Leader in Kanto then it would have been more likely Brock could have gotten angry, not 8/9 years later when all traces of him being a Gym Leader has vanished.

You're playing the "Cilan is a good Gym Leader because he mentions his position a lot" card. Can't say I'm surprised. Someone made the exact same argument a few months back, but it was proven to be unsound. The thing of it is Cilan left the Striaton City Gym. That Gym requires three Gym Leaders to be present, yet there were only two left. How is Cilan a good Gym Leader when he left his brothers and the Gym in disarray? How can people defend Cilan's witch hunt during the Skyla episodes when he himself didn't give a damn about his own Gym? Can anyone see the hypocrisy? Cilan left his Gym and practically said "screw the rules," but played the role of Gym regulator in Mistralton City.

And by the way, Brock mentioned that he was a Gym Leader in the Roxanne episodes in AG. He might've mentioned it in DP as well.