Blake_T wrote:every disc has a cruising speed range (for a given nose angle and RPM). within that range the disc will fly straight. exceed the upper bound of the range and the disc turns over. drop below the lower bound of the range and the disc fades.

more nose down reduces both the upper and lower bounds of the cruising speed range. more spin increases the upper bound while decreasing the lower bound of the CSR.

a headwind reduces the upper and lower bounds of the CSR.a tailwind increases the upper and lower bounds of the CSR.

if you exceed the upper bound, the disc will behave with aerodynamic lift.

to "get the most out of" a disc, you should be able to consistently exceed the upper bound of the CSR. this allows you to work its flight path.if you cannot consistently exceed the upper bound of the CSR you will be more at the mercy of the disc's flight characteristics vs. being able to consciously manipulate the disc's flight characteristics.

it's one thing to develop a full set of disc skills and then choose to compensate with disc weight, understability, or form.it's another to chase distance and ignore the learning curve.

I'm going to steal your words Blake, this is exactly what I've been trying to tell one of my friends. It is either my lack of proper articulation or he is just stubborn.

Im hearing a lot about eagles. I might have to pick one up. I throw a 175 broken in champion valkryie which I like, a newer not broken in 175 champion teebird which I did not care for and no longer have, a pro leopard which I didn't care for as much as other discs (pro plastic is junk imo), I tried a champion spider which I really liked and it felt good in my hand, and then a roc and a mako which I like but dont throw for any hole over about 240 ft.Opinions on champion vs. star??

Mikey: there are a LOT of shots out there that can be developed with the right approach. Sme of these shots are very difficult to develop with hi speed discs but can be learned relatively quickly with slower discs and then performed with higher speed discs after you have learned them.

It's very common nowadays for people to go too fast too soon and get too many specialized discs too soon which slows this process way down. I teach "old school," and try to get people proficient at every type of shot they'll have to throw in addition to learning how to throw far. A lot of it requires the "trust me" approach to learning :p

You have to remember that people have been plateauing in the 350'ish range since the cyclone came out in 93. More people reach 350' now than then, but out of those people, not very many of them can a) throw a cyclone/gazelle/polaris 350', and b) throw a large variety of shots, e.g. A true anhyzer.

If advice here seems rigid, it's because it works out well in the long run.

Blake gives great advice, and speaking from a physics background, his analysis of disc behavior is spot-on.

Also, learning to work your discs will allow you to make the most with fewer molds...if you have a gimmick disc for each kind of shot, your bag will get pretty big!

A good stable fairway driver tends to be easier to control and less vulnerable to the wind.

MikeyDays wrote:Im hearing a lot about eagles. I might have to pick one up...

Eagles can be very good (e.g., see how Feldberg uses them), but owing to the extreme variety of Eagles it is also a steep learning curve. I've thrown meethook Eagles that I couldn't for the life of me turn over, and I've thrown flippy Eagles that needed >45˚ hyzer in order to not flip past flat. All of these Eagles can be very useful, but you have to learn them all, and figure out how to find the good ones. The best Eagles are becoming expensive, because a lot of great players want them.

The same comments apply to Rocs, BTW.

Still, you only mention Innova discs. I personally think Discraft makes the best mid-range and fairway drivers that you can find in stores, and usually with decent plastic. Check out discs like the Cyclone, Stalker, Predator, etc. for fairway drivers, or the Comet, Buzzz, Wasp, Hornet, Drone, etc., for mid-ranges. I can throw my Buzzz out to 330', and my Cyclones almost as far as I can throw my Katanas (~380').

Just because someone CAN throw a putter 400' doesn't mean it's the best choice for a 400' shot. If you watch most players who can throw 475'+, they will usually do something similar to said ranges but with some variance. E.g. You might see particularly big arms go 350' on their putters and mids up to 380-400', but you'll rarely see them push fairway drivers much beyond 430-440' since it takes significantly more effort to do that than a "3-wood equivalent" disc, e.g, an orc. Similarly you are more likely to see one of them throw a 400' hyzer with a wraith or destroyer on a wide open hole since it's an easier shot to execute.

The thing that tends to get lost to newer players is that there was a time when fairway drivers were distance drivers and you'd see guys pumping vipers or cyclone 2's 450' or later, x2's and teebirds 480', etc.

Ego gets in the way of a lot of it. People want to feel like they are better players than they really are and focus so much on what they know that they ignore what is out there that they don't know.

I know i'm a hack golfer that can do a few things particularly well but i also know i can turn an advanced player into a cashing pro in 2-3 years of coaching :p

the biggest thing that has been ignored in this thread is rim width. You can flat out lever narrower rims much harder and more consistently than wider rims. If you aren't a big snap thrower, it's damn near impossible to learn snap with wide rims. If you decelop snap timing with narrower rims, it translates over much more easily to wide rims.

How much farther distance drivers SHOULD fly on a golf line is something that gets ignored big time. A destroyer SHOULD fly 75-100'+ farther than a teebird or eagle on a reasonable golf line. If it doesn't, you really aren't gaining much from throwing the "longer" disc. E.g. If a ball golfer only hits his 1-wood 5-7 yards farther than he hits his 4-wood, there is no motivation to ever hit the lower percentage 1-wood due to the drop off in accuracy and consistency for marginal distance gains. If a distance driver only picks up 20-30' on a fairway driver, there is no reason to throw it. If it sounds like i'm anti-distance, anyone that has talked to me knows that i believe distance is king... but i believe in REAL distance increases and not technology distance gains.

Real distance increases mean that when you power down to 80-90 % and gain accuracy and consistency vs ripping all out each time your scores will jump. Pro plastic in Leopard makes the disc flip more than Star and Champ Star being more overstable than C.

Pro in Beast is great, grippy yet durable and Pro was the longest plastic before Blizzard low weighters. Weight for weight Pro might still be the distance king. Pro Beast is a great driver but too wide winged for learning snap. Beast to a 350' and over thrower is what a go to club is for a golfer. Not the longest but not losing out much at all and way more accurate and consistent than the big bombers. Because that role changes according to the skills of the golfer the Beast could correspond to many types of golf clubs. Maybe between 3 iron to 3 wood.

For learning snap grip strength is paramount. I know this from being injured for life in the throwing arm and from slo mo cameras seeing that i can't hold on to the disc long enough most of the time. Leverage is easier to gain with thin winged discs but also thin ones. That is why i have learned the most on Spikes, XDs, Wedges and most usefully on Coyotes.

Flat shots need running on the center line of the tee and planting each step on the center line. Anhyzer needs running from rear right to front left with the plant step hitting the ground to the left of the line you're running on. Hyzer is the mirror of that.

The comment on gripping a high speed driver vs a fairway driver is so spot on with what Im going through now Blake.Im pushing my Leo(champ)350 now but struggle to get my stable Katana out to 400.I know its my grip because it feels like Im trying to hold on for dear life,like a man dangling from a ledge and the Leo feels good and powerful ripping out.

The man dangling from a ledge is a great analogy, Chris. It's funny, because when I throw Rocs 350'+ it means I should be able to throw Nukes 460'+ but when I hit a field I'll hit 85% or better of my roc throws but I'm lucky if I can get a single hit in 10 tries on a Nuke.

As for talk about Eagles, remember there's both Eagle X's and Eagle L's floating around. EL's are like a faster Polaris LS or slower Beast and fly pretty much the same in both DX and Champ plastic. EX's are a different animal completely. In DX they are throwable with 325' of power. In Star they need more like 360'+ of power. In Champ they need more like 380'+ of power on em to be able to work em at all. In a perfect world, people would be able to throw 390'+ consistently before grabbing an EX in premium plastic.

Unfortunately there are some super beefy Star Eagles that are crazy meathooks. Z Predator like. They are very short and super power hungry. Much more than what Blake wrote.

Flat shots need running on the center line of the tee and planting each step on the center line. Anhyzer needs running from rear right to front left with the plant step hitting the ground to the left of the line you're running on. Hyzer is the mirror of that.

I started off playing disc golf by finding the fastest discs I could and throwing them. 2 years later, I couldn't understand why I couldn't throw a fairway/mid/putter on a line without it turning into a roller. It was a huge setback to where I am know, and my first rule whenever I take someone new out to play is to give them a buzz to start.

The problem with starting with the fast discs is you will be teaching yourself to wrist roll all your shots. The only way you can throw those discs for any distance when you start out is to put extreme amounts of angle into your starting throw. But if you disc down and focus on throwing slower discs, you will teach yourself to release them flat. Once you have learned to throw flat, it is much easier to learn how to make every disc fly the way you want it. But if you never learn to throw flat, you will never learn how to really manipulate all your discs, all you will learn is "This disc is perfect for short dog leg holes, all it does it bend really hard" "This disc is really over stable to the point I can throw it at a 30% anny and it turns for a nice 300' S-cure." or "This disc isn't overstable enough, it just turns into a roller"