Originally posted by EnochWasRight
Number two: You are implying I said anything about making Freemasonry illegal. I said nothing of the sort. I merely point out the obvious fact that
the secret societies based on Theosophy have shown a leaning toward anarchy and subversion of the constitution, as well as working to remove true
freedom and liberty. They work to take away national sovereignty and weaken our monitory system. They work toward the end goal of one world
government in favor of the wealthy and against the working populace. These are facts. Daddy Warbucks is their own character archetype for the War
profiteer. The only thing that should be made illegal is tyranny, treason and murder. Profiting from war should also be illegal.

Are you serious? Do you make up your own history? You seriously need some help.

Starting with your skewed understanding of Theosophy. The secret societies that have existed and still do, all have their own purpose. Things like
Freemasonry and other groups like it are formed to help an individual on his personal search for his enlightenment. Whatever that might be. (it's
up to the individual, not you)

When England was forcing it's taxation on the new world, the people had enough. There was a new ideal in town with the formation of the Bavarian
Illuminati. Groups of people who had like thoughts, would congregate and some of them decided they had had enough. So Anarchists kind of fits. But
then, some of those same men, helped the New World shed it's Tyrannical regime and some of those men were involved in drafting the constitution. I
cannot speak for all of freemasonry, but I can say that all that I know are the type to support and defend the constitution. I swore an oath to do
that with my life if needed.

I think I can see what your biggest hurdle is. You are not willing to accept personal failure. You need a scapegoat. As long as there is some
mysterious group to blame, you will always smell like a rose.

Originally posted by network dude
I think I can see what your biggest hurdle is. You are not willing to accept personal failure. You need a scapegoat. As long as there is some
mysterious group to blame...

I was lucky enough in life to never have the need to choose abortion. I did well up to now in terms of health, finances and stability needed to make
the experience of a happy family happen for my son. Though I am sensible enough to understand that not all women are blessed with the same
circumstances in life, so I do not judge and also refrain in 99% of the situations to impose my point of view on others simply because I have not
walked that mile in their shoes and everybody is responsible for their own actions in the end. It is not about abortion, religion, groups with
different agendas in society, it is about free choice. The learning path of ethics is a life long one, what do you aspire to obedience or
understanding?

yeah, I see the sycronycities there yet at the same time Kants philosophies have been perverted. Well, perverted for the masses, yet at private
institutions and elitist schools you see the original form of said philosophy.

the age of enlightenment stops at Public Education in America. This happened in the early 1900s. Behold the New Dark Age.

I think it depends on how someone sees the situation. If you don't see a living human fetus as a human being then it's easy to simply dismiss it and
let it die, but if you see a living human fetus as a human being(what constitues a human being) then you see abortion as killing the weakest of humans
who have no voice and who people are trying to make sure you never see. Medical science today has made it to where there really shouldn't be any
elective abortions. There are multiple forms of birth control and people have been told repeatedly that no 1 form is 100%, the logical conclusion
would be to use more than 1 form of birth control.

PS: I skipped from page 1 to page whatever this page is, and the discussion went from religion in the Free Masons to abortion, How the hell did that
happen?

Probably hot button in the news. I think every life has the possibility of being something amazing and should have the chance of that option, but
without walking in someone else's shoes, I cannot say if their reasons for wanting to terminate are valid or not. I think that's between them and
whomever they pray to.

Originally posted by EnochWasRight
Number two: You are implying I said anything about making Freemasonry illegal. I said nothing of the sort. I merely point out the obvious fact that
the secret societies based on Theosophy have shown a leaning toward anarchy and subversion of the constitution, as well as working to remove true
freedom and liberty. They work to take away national sovereignty and weaken our monitory system. They work toward the end goal of one world
government in favor of the wealthy and against the working populace. These are facts. Daddy Warbucks is their own character archetype for the War
profiteer. The only thing that should be made illegal is tyranny, treason and murder. Profiting from war should also be illegal.

Are you serious? Do you make up your own history? You seriously need some help.

Starting with your skewed understanding of Theosophy. The secret societies that have existed and still do, all have their own purpose. Things like
Freemasonry and other groups like it are formed to help an individual on his personal search for his enlightenment. Whatever that might be. (it's
up to the individual, not you)

When England was forcing it's taxation on the new world, the people had enough. There was a new ideal in town with the formation of the Bavarian
Illuminati. Groups of people who had like thoughts, would congregate and some of them decided they had had enough. So Anarchists kind of fits. But
then, some of those same men, helped the New World shed it's Tyrannical regime and some of those men were involved in drafting the constitution. I
cannot speak for all of freemasonry, but I can say that all that I know are the type to support and defend the constitution. I swore an oath to do
that with my life if needed.

I think I can see what your biggest hurdle is. You are not willing to accept personal failure. You need a scapegoat. As long as there is some
mysterious group to blame, you will always smell like a rose.

While it is true that our destiny is in the hands of God, this does not imply that groups of individuals are not working behind the scenes to subvert
that destiny. You are also correct in saying that there are different objectives in this divided house. We also know full well that there are secret
societies that are centered around the broadest power base and sources of wealth that owe their actions to oaths that have been taken among secretive
private associations. In the end, we have no way of knowing an individuals heart or how these hearts and minds are then grouped into a conglomeration
of focused actions. What we do know is this: Actions are grouped and influenced.

We also know that the influence is coming from two primary sources. One is benevolent and the other malevolent. Apart from any source of belief,
anyone can see that forces of darkness are working against free nations. Overall, there is one focus toward a New World Order, which is itself a
divided house. WE CAN know the source of this because there IS a trail that leads directly to the Masons. This is fact, not fiction. It was most
refined with the Hermetic Renascence within the cult of Reason that started when the Corpus Hermeticum surfaced. Bruno was the first martyr and the
primary poster boy for this style of Mystery School Humanism. After that, it went underground and has been working ever since. Before Bruno, the
connections lead all the way back to the beginning when Jacob and Esau were tagged by God as the two threads of Esoteric and Exoteric.

Beyond this, there has always been a mouth to ear school that has taught the underlying meaning behind the symbols that pervade our world. Again, the
Masons are in the thick of all of it.

I was lucky enough in life to never have the need to choose abortion. I did well up to now in terms of health, finances and stability needed to make
the experience of a happy family happen for my son. Though I am sensible enough to understand that not all women are blessed with the same
circumstances in life, so I do not judge and also refrain in 99% of the situations to impose my point of view on others simply because I have not
walked that mile in their shoes and everybody is responsible for their own actions in the end. It is not about abortion, religion, groups with
different agendas in society, it is about free choice. The learning path of ethics is a life long one, what do you aspire to obedience or
understanding?

For me, ethics is not a complicated matter. The will to give and receive is always superior to the will to take. Suffering always brings reward, but
suffering from taking reward is unpleasant. Suffering to earn reward is always beneficial. This rule of returns can be applied forward to any choice
we make in life.

Abortion is no different that smoking, doing drugs or avoiding work for pleasure. It's a choice that avoids suffering for some other advantage. I
say it's the same as smoking, drugs or avoiding work in this way: If you smoke, you get cancer. Any time we take something that is not earned
(Self-gratification), we reap a debt. Smoking is an easy example. If we suffer exercise instead, the reverse happens. Suffering work always
produces something in return. It may not be the easiest thing to do, but taking on a new life produces rewards because we must suffer to make it
happen. Even if the baby is adopted, the 9 months of suffering produces a reward that is not able to be measured for the the person we give life to.
How can you measure such a gift that is paid forward? You can measure a gift that is denied in selfishness. It ends in a debt.

There is no other way to look at this. Sure, we have a choice. We always have the choice to do the right thing. As I said earlier, we cannot kill
the rapist, but we can kill the baby who did nothing to deserve this dishonor. This alone is the best reason to stand against incorrect choice.
Lives are ruined by the debts that we generate by incorrect choice. This is a law that is set in motion by God and woven into the universe. Buddha
noted this as well.

Based on what Buddha said about choices, which choice is the best? For me, I can only share the way that Jesus and Buddha tried to share with
humanity. The lessons are not hard. As Buddha says below, words are one thing but actions defines our future by our thoughts. We must act on the
truth to see it engage. It will engage regardless of which choice we choose. Make the best choice and share this with others. That's Buddha's
entire point. The world tells you there are no absolutes other than the ones you choose. This is false.

Choices

Chapter 1 - Choices

We are what we think.
All that we are arises with our thoughts.
With our thoughts we make the world.
Speak or act with an impure mind
And trouble will follow you
As the wheel follows the ox that draws the cart.
We are what we think.
All that we are arises with our thoughts.
With our thoughts we make the world.
Speak or act with a pure mind
And happiness will follow you
As your shadow, unshakable.
"Look how he abused me and hurt me,
How he threw me down and robbed me."
Live with such thoughts and you live in hate.
"Look how he abused me and hurt me,
How he threw me down and robbed me."
Abandon such thoughts, and live in love.
In this world
Hate never yet dispelled hate.
Only love dispels hate.
This is the law,
Ancient and inexhaustible.
You too shall pass away.
Knowing this, how can you quarrel?
How easily the wind overturns a frail tree.
Seek happiness in the senses,
Indulge in food and sleep,
And you too will be uprooted.
The wind cannot overturn a mountain.
Temptation cannot touch the man
Who is awake, strong and humble,
Who masters himself and minds the dharma.
If a man's thoughts are muddy,
If he is reckless and full of deceit,
How can he wear the yellow robe?
Whoever is master of his own nature,
Bright, clear and true,
He may indeed wear the yellow robe.
Mistaking the false for the true,
And the true for the false,
You overlook the heart
And fill yourself with desire.
See the false as false,
The true as true.
Look into your heart.
Follow your nature.
An unreflecting mind is a poor roof.
Passion, like the rain, floods the house.
But if the roof is strong, there is shelter.
Whoever follows impure thoughts
Suffers in this world and the next.
In both worlds he suffers
And how greatly
When he sees the wrong he has done.
But whoever follows the dharma
Is joyful here and joyful there.
In both worlds he rejoices
And how greatly
When he sees the good he has done.
For great is the harvest in this world,
And greater still in the next.
However many holy words you read,
However many you speak,
What good will they do you
If you do not act upon them?
Are you a shepherd
Who counts another man's sheep,
Never sharing the way?
Read as few words as you like,
And speak fewer.
But act upon the dharma.
Give up the old ways -
Passion, enmity, folly.
Know the truth and find peace.
Share the way.

Originally posted by EnochWasRight
Abortion is no different that smoking, doing drugs or avoiding work for pleasure. It's a choice that avoids suffering for some other advantage. I
say it's the same as smoking, drugs or avoiding work in this way: If you smoke, you get cancer. Any time we take something that is not earned
(Self-gratification), we reap a debt.

Huh? So if some incestous bastard of a father rapes his daughter and impregnates her she is somehow obligated to carry that through to full term
because it was not earned the same as smoking a cigarette?

You seem to be a bit too wrapped up in conspiracies to be able to make sense.

I just wonder what you people will do in 2013 when the end has not come and Niburu didn't smash into earth. I guess you will still always have the
lizard people of hollow earth.

The real moment to look for is 2015 int 2016. I think the transition to 2013 will be a quickening of sorts. It will become obvious where we are
headed and Iran is simply the focusing lens for what is coming. It is the pivotal set of events that allow us all to see prophecy unfold like a
flood. If you don't know Genesis 37-50, you will not see it as it happens. The single thing that defines the starting point is the tables of the
moneychangers being turned over and the peace makers having no rest. It's already started. The bricks have fallen and nothing is going to stop all
of them from tumbling down. On the flip side of this, the church is receiving its casing stones as we speak. I would read the Shepherd of Hermas
where the parable of the builders is explained to Hermas.

You are implying that nothing will happen. It's already happening and you don't even see it. That's interesting to me.

Originally posted by EnochWasRight
Abortion is no different that smoking, doing drugs or avoiding work for pleasure. It's a choice that avoids suffering for some other advantage. I
say it's the same as smoking, drugs or avoiding work in this way: If you smoke, you get cancer. Any time we take something that is not earned
(Self-gratification), we reap a debt.

Huh? So if some incestous bastard of a father rapes his daughter and impregnates her she is somehow obligated to carry that through to full term
because it was not earned the same as smoking a cigarette?

Are you frigging sick in the head?

In this case, we are talking second hand smoke, but the idea is the same. Life happens to us all and bad things happen. Two wrongs do not make a
right. I'll just point it out again: We can't kill the rapist but we can kill the baby.

Are you frigging sick in the head to think the baby deserves death? Neither the mother or the child have done anything wrong. Until the abortion
happens, both are innocent. Killing a baby makes the mother a murderer and the baby dead. If you can't see what's wrong with this, you are missing
much of what ethics says about decency, justice and law.

Why is smoking the same? If that same father gives his children cancer from secondhand smoke, we would never consider killing the children because
the cancer is a burden to the mother. Life happens to all of us and when bad things happen to good people, we don't then become that evil ourselves
and call it a choice. The only person that should have the choice is the baby.

"His plan for MY life," is what she says in the video. The abortion doctor had no right to have any plans for her life. She should have the
opportunity for her own life and in this case, she did.

Simpler answer. Self-gratifying choices at the expense of those we love is not ethical. Smoking is harming self and others. Abortion harms the
mother as well as the child. Ultimately, we trace the problem of rape in the family or in society as a breakdown of the family. The central problem
is how we value the family in the first place. This extends to all of our choices as parents and citizens. Justifying such actions a ethical choice
is unconscionable, especially given the choice that we have for the mother and serving justice to the rapist. Giving a woman choice is empowering her
to carry the baby to term and allow her a safe environment to do this. Instead, we spend money billions to empower abortion clinics interested in
making money. We then slap the rapist on the hand and hope he doesn't do it again. No only do we let the real criminal go, we kill the innocent
life and create murdered for profit.

Please inform me where I go wrong.

Originally posted by AugustusMasonicus

Originally posted by EnochWasRight
Abortion is no different that smoking, doing drugs or avoiding work for pleasure. It's a choice that avoids suffering for some other advantage. I
say it's the same as smoking, drugs or avoiding work in this way: If you smoke, you get cancer. Any time we take something that is not earned
(Self-gratification), we reap a debt.

Huh? So if some incestous bastard of a father rapes his daughter and impregnates her she is somehow obligated to carry that through to full term
because it was not earned the same as smoking a cigarette?

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