undeadsuitor:Welcome to America. Where police officers aren't a public agency but more of a force of nature that can kill anyone they want as long as they vaguely place their hands anywhere.

Cops are cowards. End of discussion.

Yeahhhhh, how about we just don't make blanket statements like that, OK?

In fact, why don't we all just chill the hell out about the cops. I highly doubt the offending officer just got up one day and said, "You know what? I'm gonna shoot an innocent person today."

SWAT teams also simply don't have much, if any time to prepare their ops. They need to do their stuff and do it fast.

I'll stop making blanket statements when it stops being true. And I'll lay off cops when they stop circling the wagons every time one makes a mistake.

We've reached a point in America where criticising the police is tantamount to spitting on the flag and that's not okay. Cops aren't veterans no matter how much they want to pretend to be soldiers on the streets.

Samtemdo8:What I don't understand is if the cops are going to fire at a suspect? Why don't they fire at a non lethal area?

Like why can't this cop just shoot the suspect in the leg to cripple him so that they can at least arrest him while he's still alive. I thought the whole point of law enforcement in our modern day is catch the criminal alive first and then judge them.

But of course it would be better if they don't fire at all.

This is a massively common misconception that arises from, ironically, gamers who don't actually know how guns and the human body work in real life.

Shooting someone in the leg is only a harmless prank in computer games and films, in real life you have a major fucking artery in your leg that will kill you if it's cut. Same with your shoulder and arm. The 'safest' places to get shot are your hands, feet, arse cheeks and even those can and do kill. There is no safe place to shoot someone, if you shoot someone you are by default aiming to kill.

undeadsuitor:I'll stop making blanket statements when it stops being true. And I'll lay off cops when they stop circling the wagons every time one makes a mistake.

We've reached a point in America where criticising the police is tantamount to spitting on the flag and that's not okay.

I don't see that. And in any case, this just happened, so give the police room to breathe already. Obviously the SWAT team member made a grave mistake but the thing is, you weren't there. You have no idea as to what it looked like or didn't look like.

Samtemdo8:What I don't understand is if the cops are going to fire at a suspect? Why don't they fire at a non lethal area?

Like why can't this cop just shoot the suspect in the leg to cripple him so that they can at least arrest him while he's still alive. I thought the whole point of law enforcement in our modern day is catch the criminal alive first and then judge them.

But of course it would be better if they don't fire at all.

This is a massively common misconception that arises from, ironically, gamers who don't actually know how guns and the human body work in real life.

Shooting someone in the leg is only a harmless prank in computer games and films, in real life you have a major fucking artery in your leg that will kill you if it's cut. Same with your shoulder and arm. The 'safest' places to get shot are your hands, feet, arse cheeks and even those can and do kill. There is no safe place to shoot someone, if you shoot someone you are by default aiming to kill.

Technically, getting shot in an arm or a leg is statistically less likely to kill you then getting shot in the torso or head. That part isn't wrong, even if you can get unlucky and have your femoral artery severed by the bullet or you can get lucky and have a bullet strike your brain without causing major noticeable damage to your cognitive functions.

But as you point out, when a police officer draws their sidearm with an intent to fire they are doing so because there's imminent and lethal danger to themselves, another cop or a civilian. At that point the well-being of the perpetrator goes out the window because their actions might result in the death of someone else unless the police officer uses lethal force. There's also another important aspect to consider: It is easier to hit the torso of a person then it is to hit moving limbs. And since a bullet always will end up somewhere you want to maximize the chances that it hits the target, because a miss means the bullet continues past the target and might potentially hurt an innocent person in the background. As such, aiming for the torso carries many benefits for the police officer, the chance of stopping the perpetrator from hurting someone else increases and the risk of causing collateral damage from stray rounds is minimized.

undeadsuitor:We've reached a point in America where criticising the police is tantamount to spitting on the flag and that's not okay. Cops aren't veterans no matter how much they want to pretend to be soldiers on the streets.

Really? I got the impression that criticizing the police had become tantamount to saluting the flag down there.

undeadsuitor:I'll stop making blanket statements when it stops being true. And I'll lay off cops when they stop circling the wagons every time one makes a mistake.

We've reached a point in America where criticising the police is tantamount to spitting on the flag and that's not okay.

I don't see that. And in any case, this just happened, so give the police room to breathe already. Obviously the SWAT team member made a grave mistake but the thing is, you weren't there. You have no idea as to what it looked like or didn't look like.

The thing about waiting for an appropriate time to talk about it is....before you arbitrarily decide enough time is passed someone else is going to get shot. And then before you decide to talk about that one another person will die. And then another. And another.

The officer made a grave mistake but nothing is going to be done about it. The union will circle their wagons and make sure he doesn't even see a slap on the wrist because of course he won't.

I'm tired of being told that the trained professional was so scared of an unarmed citizen that he had to shoot him 20 times just to make sure. I'm tired of watching videos of cops planting evidence and nothing being done.

Cops are out of control in America and it's up to everyone with any decency to bring them back in line with what they were created for. Nobody should be able to look at a history of itchy-trigger fingers, racism and clear evidence planting and say "this is fine."

Addendum_Forthcoming:What the fuck is wrong with these people? Hopefully everyone involved sees some gaol time. And why the hell did police just shoot an unarmed man in an anonymous tipoff? When someone says 'swatting' I assume that meansactually trained armed response teams in general? Bit of control might be needed.

Whether or not an actual SWAT team is involved varies, but the effect is the same. They shot him because they chose to take the situation entirely seriously, which ended up with a man paying the price for doing something entirely innocent.

Apparently you shouldn't think or plan murdering someone personally, or hiring a hitman. Just anonymously inform on them to the police and make up a dangerous situation.

This is depressingly common actually. You can make up all sorts of shit and get police to respond or just get someone's rights taken away based on hearsay.

CannibalCorpses:Well, if i was a betting man i would wager that the victim was a black man and thats why the SWAT team shot him dead :p

Good thing you're not a betting man.

Xsjadoblayde:This was only a matter of that there time you have. Is it time yet to discuss how to combat this?

That's the fucked up thing about it. You can't really combat it without making problems somewhere else. Your best option is racking up insane charges against people and putting a fuckton of effort into finding the callers.

Hawk of Battle:How... does this happen? Like, the guy doing the phone call was claiming HE was the one with the gun, according to that video in the second link, and presumably gave the wrong address, that he got from the guy he was pissed off at. But he was calling from a completely different address right? Do they not check where the phone call is coming from and see something doesn't add up? Shouldn't they have gone to HIS address?

Many ways to spoof numbers and that's provided they're taking the time to check at all. With the situation presented, you can take the time to react and potentially lose lives or you go out and hope for the best.

So then some poor sod opens his door, gets shouted at by a bunch of cops leveling guns at him, is rightly confused and probably scared and then gets shot for doing basically nothing?

Just... what?! The level of incompetence and mishandling of this whole situation is baffling. Everyone involved needs to be investigated and probably receive jail time, the two COD morons, the officers, the whole lot. Fucking insane.

Considering we just had the Vegas cop get away with one of the worst shoots I've seen, I wouldn't count on it.

BreakfastMan:Jesus christ. How is SWATting not illegal now? They seriously should charge that motherfucker with murder or manslaughter, god damn.

It very much is and that's probably what's going to happen. Don't be surprised if the guy gets life.

What I don't understand is if the cops are going to fire at a suspect? Why don't they fire at a non lethal area?

Because when it comes to using controlled explosions to send a metal slug out of a tube with directed force to rip through someone's body, there is no such thing as a non-lethal area. If you're in a situation where you have to shoot someone, everything has already gone to hell and you're at the point where ending a life is a viable/outright necessary option.

Like why can't this cop just shoot the suspect in the leg to cripple him so that they can at least arrest him while he's still alive.

If I'm reaching for a gun and you're taking shots at my leg, if you even manage to hit me, I'm still grabbing a firearm and probably going to be shooting at you with no care if you live or not. You dying would actually be my intention so your best option to stop this is aiming for my torso and firing until I'm no longer a threat.

I thought the whole point of law enforcement in our modern day is catch the criminal alive first and then judge them.

When possible, yes. However if the suspect is endangering lives, that takes priority. The actual MO of SWAT is to ensure that everyone involved survives with preferably not a single shot fired unless absolutely necessary, hence the acronym Special Weapons And Tactics. Problem is that you're still dealing with armed suspects and some people don't listen to reason. Even worse is that you're beginning to get a major militarization of police that forgets the Tactics bit and are soldiers by any other name.

But none of this even applies since it looks like regular officers responded.

undeadsuitor:I'll stop making blanket statements when it stops being true. And I'll lay off cops when they stop circling the wagons every time one makes a mistake.

We've reached a point in America where criticising the police is tantamount to spitting on the flag and that's not okay.

I don't see that. And in any case, this just happened, so give the police room to breathe already. Obviously the SWAT team member made a grave mistake but the thing is, you weren't there. You have no idea as to what it looked like or didn't look like.

The guy who called the SWAT team should be beaten to death with his gaming system. However, the cops in the US are apparently legally allowed to shoot you if you simply don't comply with their every command. They don't even have to see you holding a weapon. They just can't be arsed to try to resolve the situation peacefully because it might take longer, I guess. So they shoot you instead.

undeadsuitor:Welcome to America. Where police officers aren't a public agency but more of a force of nature that can kill anyone they want as long as they vaguely place their hands anywhere.

Cops are cowards. End of discussion.

Yeahhhhh, how about we just don't make blanket statements like that, OK?

In fact, why don't we all just chill the hell out about the cops. I highly doubt the offending officer just got up one day and said, "You know what? I'm gonna shoot an innocent person today."

SWAT teams also simply don't have much, if any time to prepare their ops. They need to do their stuff and do it fast.

I'll stop making blanket statements when it stops being true. And I'll lay off cops when they stop circling the wagons every time one makes a mistake.

We've reached a point in America where criticising the police is tantamount to spitting on the flag and that's not okay. Cops aren't veterans no matter how much they want to pretend to be soldiers on the streets.

Actually in this case it looks like the cops responded in a rather expected manner.

Not the usual trigger happy nature that it seems like a lot of these events go out in.

You know what, I don't actually care all that much whether the team member is actually guilty or goes to jail or whatever. It's that you all AUTOMATICALLY assume that the cop in question was some asshole who deserves to be punished when you literally don't even know the first thing about him. Guilty until proven innocent doesn't fly well with me.

You know what, I don't actually care all that much whether the team member is actually guilty or goes to jail or whatever. It's that you all AUTOMATICALLY assume that the cop in question was some asshole who deserves to be punished when you literally don't even know the first thing about him. Guilty until proven innocent doesn't fly well with me.

Yeah cause who cares that the SWAT team are chumps who suck at their job?

You know what, I don't actually care all that much whether the team member is actually guilty or goes to jail or whatever. It's that you all AUTOMATICALLY assume that the cop in question was some asshole who deserves to be punished when you literally don't even know the first thing about him. Guilty until proven innocent doesn't fly well with me.

I have to balance out the people who AUTOMATICALLY assume the cop in question isnt a murderer for murdering someone.

Edit: It worries me that you're more bothered by my anger than an innocent person being killed.

Yes because the guy gunning down an unarmed civilian on their front porch and following that up by he and his fellow officers handcuffing the remaining house members and marching them outside, in freezing temperatures, over their dead family member's body[1] is the good guy here....

See, if the police actually worked as hard removing the bad apples in their midst (ie: the ones we see killing innocents, planting evidence, lying on reports, etc daily) instead of defending "the thin blue line," they wouldn't get the hate they do. As long as officers' efforts are focused on an "us vs them" narrative where they pretend to play soldier in warzones, they will get deserved flak.

Note: There are good cops. Hell, I'll say that the vast majority of cops are good cops, but "you lie down with dogs, you wake up with fleas."

Samtemdo8:And I have been told the example of Non Lethal weapons like Shotguns with Rubber Slugs and Tasers are not as effective to incapacitate a Suspect...

You have been misinformed. There is no such thing as a 'non-leathal weapon'. The very idea is contradictory. What you are referring to are 'LESS-lethal rounds' in the case of tazers and/or the aforementioned beanbag rounds. As in, these have a much lower chance of killing you than a traditional firearm. Not no chance, just a lower one.

Kotaro:Charge them with murder. Because that's what this was: murder by cop.

Charge the SWAT team with murder too.

Fuck that noise. Charge the guy who told the police Someone had a gun trained on their mother and had already killed their father

I believe they will: a death caused in the commission of another crime, such as making a false report to police, can result in a charge of felony-murder in the United States. Or so I am informed, that provision may have changed or the false report is an insufficiently strong enough crime to use.

Yes because the guy gunning down an unarmed civilian on their front porch and following that up by he and his fellow officers handcuffing the remaining house members and marching them outside, in freezing temperatures, over their dead family member's body[1] is the good guy here....

See, if the police actually worked as hard removing the bad apples in their midst (ie: the ones we see killing innocents, planting evidence, lying on reports, etc daily) instead of defending "the thin blue line," they wouldn't get the hate they do. As long as officers' efforts are focused on an "us vs them" narrative where they pretend to play soldier in warzones, they will get deserved flak.

Note: There are good cops. Hell, I'll say that the vast majority of cops are good cops, but "you lie down with dogs, you wake up with fleas."

To be completely fair, when groups like S.W.A.T. or S.O.G. are brought in, handcuffing everyone is standard procedure since they are usually going in totally blind. Tactical groups like this are typically brought in to a situation that is already off the rails in a big way and their mission is to restore order through overwhelming shows (and if the warranted, demonstrations) of force so that the police may quickly and safely ascertain who is who.

The trouble is, post September 11, these groups are being brought in to actions that typically would not warrant them since they now feel obligated to treat ANY act of violence as the beginnings of potential terrorism.

I've played my fair share of online games and Call of Duty players are second only to League of Legends players in their toxic bullshit. It doesn't surprise me at all that some CoD dickhead would pull shit like this. Really, what surprises me is that it doesn't happen more often.

An American police force. 'Murica! Fuck yeah!

But seriously, a lot of our cops have a shoot first, ask questions never modus operandi. Once in a while, questions will be asked later. This kind of shit is far from confidence inspiring.

That's really stupid esp. in a situation like this. Again it's no wonder they have a bad rep.

It's a tough situation. There are a lot of guns in the US and there are effectively no restrictions on ownership. Cops here are twitchy, undisciplined, and scared. If you had the option of shooting someone who might have a gun or maybe getting shot yourself, I imagine that you'd prefer to become a murderer than risk becoming a corpse.

I'm not trying to justify the choice, of course, but I try to understand why it occurred.

Gamers still aren't exactly looked upon in a positive light in the media if I'm not mistaken. I suppose attention has shifted to other things now now though.

No doubt, but they're usually not in the business of getting real people killed.

Wintermute:You can't go to jail in America for prank calling the police?

Yes you can!

The laws differ slightly from state to state, but the legit of it is if a person calls the police or fire department with a point to deceive, they can be charged under state law. All states have these types of laws; the problem is that each state wrote their own so it's not unified. So in one state a person that pranks using 911 will be fined $200,000 plus a five year jail sentence. While in another state it a twelve year sentence and a $10,000 fine.

Since they called from one state to another to have the SWAT, this case will also fall under Federal jurisdiction. That also has its own laws in how it deals cases that cross state lines. In the end, this guy will not just be charged under federal law, which is more sever. He will more in likely be charge under the state's law which he made the call from. Meaning this guy will not just have to serve a federal sentence but a state sentence and have a massive fine to pay.

OTOH, they can still be useful under certain situations (the suspect is violent, but not armed). US police seem to be rather trigger happy with those as well, though.

This. There are plenty of situations that police officers can defuse with a can of pepper spray and a take down, that doesn't need them to pull their sidearm. When I worked the psychiatric intake it was a fairly common occurrence to have the police come in during the night shifts with psychotic people, people who were having a bad drug trip and similar who were loud and aggressive, occasionally violent but never posing enough threat to be an imminent lethal danger to someone else. Quite often these people would have been pepper sprayed (and would have the entire area around their eyes swollen for days afterwards), because it was a quick way to stop them from trying to attack the police officers who came to pick them up.

You know what, I don't actually care all that much whether the team member is actually guilty or goes to jail or whatever. It's that you all AUTOMATICALLY assume that the cop in question was some asshole who deserves to be punished when you literally don't even know the first thing about him. Guilty until proven innocent doesn't fly well with me.

If a cop kills an innocent person, he has either committed a crime or made a very serious mistake. Either way, disciplinary action is necessary.

So, yes; the cop should be punished. Any cop who accidentally kills a completely innocent person - even if they do so after receiving false information from a prank call - should face disciplinary action. Not necessarily being sent to jail, but fired? Sure. Ordinary people get fired every day for making mistakes that are far less grave. Is a cop's job that important when you can't trust him to do it properly and safely?

OTOH, they can still be useful under certain situations (the suspect is violent, but not armed). US police seem to be rather trigger happy with those as well, though.

This. There are plenty of situations that police officers can defuse with a can of pepper spray and a take down, that doesn't need them to pull their sidearm. When I worked the psychiatric intake it was a fairly common occurrence to have the police come in during the night shifts with psychotic people, people who were having a bad drug trip and similar who were loud and aggressive, occasionally violent but never posing enough threat to be an imminent lethal danger to someone else. Quite often these people would have been pepper sprayed (and would have the entire area around their eyes swollen for days afterwards), because it was a quick way to stop them from trying to attack the police officers who came to pick them up.

One thing people forget is SWAT is NOT the normal police department. SWAT is supposed to be only called if its the last resort as the Sh@t has hit the fan. That means heavy armor and military grade rifles, platoon tactics to stop a hostage situation from getting out of hand. Unlike the normal men in blue they are not the type to talk, as the situations they are normally placed into are times when talking is not a option.

SWAT uses lethal force all the time , while the regular guys in PD have options. That is why SWATTING someone is so horrible as it could lead to someone ending very much dead.

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