Originally Posted By crowboy:It would have stopped September 11th from happening ?

If it had been intended to accomplish anything worthwhile, it would be a completely different circumstance. "If those two babies that man strangled had been armed terrorists attacking the White House, would you still think he deserved capital punishment?" "If that porterhouse steak and baked potato were a pigshit patty and a ball of wax, would you still want to eat it?" "If Janet Reno looked like Alyssa Milano, would you still say she's ugly?" The problem with the "torture" (which apparently is not an accurate word for most of what went on) is that it was gratuitous.

Alledged is the key word here, we do not have all the facts yet. On the surface it looks bad but time will tell. My point is that we need to get with the Terrorist program and treat them the same way they treat us. Had we had that sort of attitude before Sept 11 maybe it wouldnt have happened.

All that should happen is the court martial of those responsible and then move on. No different than the thousands of other crimes committed by uniformed personnel every year. It's not like we don't have a system in place to deal with this....

The main problem in my mind of this whle fiasco is WTF these guys were doing with cameras to begin with. It's just common sense to not tae picures. "What happens in Vegas STAYS in Vegas!" Now the press and image problem that has resulted is the real tragedy. It is a totally avoidable distraction for our armed forces. We'll have to tip-toe even more in Iraq now instead of unleashing Hell.

Originally Posted By ClayP:The main problem in my mind of this whle fiasco is WTF these guys were doing with cameras to begin with. It's just common sense to not tae picures. "What happens in Vegas STAYS in Vegas!" Now the press and image problem that has resulted is the real tragedy. It is a totally avoidable distraction for our armed forces. We'll have to tip-toe even more in Iraq now instead of unleashing Hell.

The pics WERE really stupid but maybe they were being used on new prisoners.

Originally Posted By crowboy:It would have stopped September 11th from happening ?

Get a life

You have no Fucking clue ...

Perhaps you should change the title of your thread from "The Alleged Treatment of Iraqi Terrorist Prisoners" to The Treatment of Alleged Iraqi Terrorist Prisoners.There appears to be nothing "Alleged" about their treatment, it's there for the world to see, and charges are being brought against those involved. The general consensus is that this did happen.

But as for calling them terrorists, well, what happened to innocent until proven guilty.Sure they were in jail, but for what reasons were they being held? Do you know??

As for the Sept 11th reference, are you really that stupid to believe that something like this would've stopped it? I don't think so. If anything, going by your way of reasoning, it might have happened sooner.

Originally Posted By crowboy:It would have stopped September 11th from happening ?

Get a life

You have no Fucking clue ...

Perhaps you should change the title of your thread from "The Alleged Treatment of Iraqi Terrorist Prisoners" to The Treatment of Alleged Iraqi Terrorist Prisoners.There appears to be nothing "Alleged" about their treatment, it's there for the world to see, and charges are being brought against those involved. The general consensus is that this did happen.

But as for calling them terrorists, well, what happened to innocent until proven guilty.Sure they were in jail, but for what reasons were they being held? Do you know??

As for the Sept 11th reference, are you really that stupid to believe that something like this would've stopped it? I don't think so. If anything, going by your way of reasoning, it might have happened sooner.

Besides all this, what the hell did Iraq have to do with Sept 11?

read my 2nd post on this thread. You believe the Terrorists have innocent until proven rights but our Soldiers dont ? No I do not know why they were in Jail anymore than you know and I guess it all comes down to your definition of a Terrorist and I imagine from your posts that yours is different than mine.

I dont condem their supposed abuse.It looks like some sort of gag/ attempting to be funny sort of thingIts gotten way out of hand, as usually happens when a joke occurs and someone has no sense of humor.If they were really abusing them then why would they take pictures?

Originally Posted By crowboy:It would have stopped September 11th from happening ?

Get a life

You have no Fucking clue ...

Perhaps you should change the title of your thread from "The Alleged Treatment of Iraqi Terrorist Prisoners" to The Treatment of Alleged Iraqi Terrorist Prisoners.There appears to be nothing "Alleged" about their treatment, it's there for the world to see, and charges are being brought against those involved. The general consensus is that this did happen.

But as for calling them terrorists, well, what happened to innocent until proven guilty.Sure they were in jail, but for what reasons were they being held? Do you know??

As for the Sept 11th reference, are you really that stupid to believe that something like this would've stopped it? I don't think so. If anything, going by your way of reasoning, it might have happened sooner.

Besides all this, what the hell did Iraq have to do with Sept 11?

read my 2nd post on this thread. You believe the Terrorists have innocent until proven rights but our Soldiers dont ? No I do not know why they were in Jail anymore than you know and I guess it all comes down to your definition of a Terrorist and I imagine from your posts that yours is different than mine.

I never said the soldiers don't have rights, everyone does. But they're as good as admitting it themselves with all that only following orders stuff.My definition of a terrorist is anyone who commits an act of terror for political reasons or whatever.Could it be that your definition is any Iraqi, or Arab, who happens to be in jail.Terrorist is a very handy term when you need to describe your enemy. You can use it to encompass everyone when you need to.Fact is, treatment of the prisoners like this is seen as no better than Saddam in the Arab world. And who can blame them.We all know that incidents like this are relatively few, but they do happen unfortunately.And whether they're caught on camera or not doesn't matter. They shouldn't happen at all!

And now you have the clerics in Iraq telling the masses that this is how the Americans treat all Arabs, which is not the case, in the same way as not all Arabs hate Americans. But this is the image that get's portrayed by the paranoids of this world.

But once again, as we're starting to stray from your original question, what has any of this to do with Sept 11?

Hello! Hello! Three of the guards have confessed to the investigating officers and implicated others involved. Not to mention tons of physical evidence and corroborating testimony not to mention the pictures and videos. There are dead bodies that resulted from this also and the exact causes of death are still being determined.

Under these circumstances I think saying alleged/supposed abuses is not appropriate.

Here is what was going on according to the International Red Cross and the Military investigating officers based upon confessions of those involved.

Prisoners were hooded and stripped and handcuffed. Many of the prisoners were cuffed so tightly that the cuffs pierced the skin and damaged or severed the nerves.

They were beaten with pistols/rifle butts and clubs. Repeatedly kicked and punched (one of the reported dead died after being repeatedly kicked.)

The prisoners were forced to masturbate. They were forced into positions of sexual contact with others. The prisoners were sodomized with broomsticks and large light sticks.

At least one female prisoner was raped while hooded and cuffed. It has not been determined yet how many guards were involved.

Prisoners were told that if they did not comply their families would be raped and murdered by US troops.

Electrocution was used as a form of torture.

Chemicals were used burn prisoners.

No one has copped to the 25 deaths yet and at least twelve appear to be murders.

All of these things were done before any American/coalition or contractor bodies were dragged through the streets.

Question the motives of any man/woman who tries to convince you to exchange your liberties for peace

Originally Posted By crowboy:It would have stopped September 11th from happening ?

Get a life

You have no Fucking clue ...

Perhaps you should change the title of your thread from "The Alleged Treatment of Iraqi Terrorist Prisoners" to The Treatment of Alleged Iraqi Terrorist Prisoners.There appears to be nothing "Alleged" about their treatment, it's there for the world to see, and charges are being brought against those involved. The general consensus is that this did happen.

But as for calling them terrorists, well, what happened to innocent until proven guilty.Sure they were in jail, but for what reasons were they being held? Do you know??

As for the Sept 11th reference, are you really that stupid to believe that something like this would've stopped it? I don't think so. If anything, going by your way of reasoning, it might have happened sooner.

Besides all this, what the hell did Iraq have to do with Sept 11?

read my 2nd post on this thread. You believe the Terrorists have innocent until proven rights but our Soldiers dont ? No I do not know why they were in Jail anymore than you know and I guess it all comes down to your definition of a Terrorist and I imagine from your posts that yours is different than mine.

I never said the soldiers don't have rights, everyone does. But they're as good as admitting it themselves with all that only following orders stuff.My definition of a terrorist is anyone who commits an act of terror for political reasons or whatever.Could it be that your definition is any Iraqi, or Arab, who happens to be in jail.Terrorist is a very handy term when you need to describe your enemy. You can use it to encompass everyone when you need to.Fact is, treatment of the prisoners like this is seen as no better than Saddam in the Arab world. And who can blame them.We all know that incidents like this are relatively few, but they do happen unfortunately.And whether they're caught on camera or not doesn't matter. They shouldn't happen at all!

And now you have the clerics in Iraq telling the masses that this is how the Americans treat all Arabs, which is not the case, in the same way as not all Arabs hate Americans. But this is the image that get's portrayed by the paranoids of this world.

But once again, as we're starting to stray from your original question, what has any of this to do with Sept 11?

The pics of the prisoners are a very long way from Saddams methods of dealing with people and I would say not in the same world. The PC attitude in regards to this prisoner "abuse" BS is the same PC wimp ass attitude that helped allow Sept 11 to happen, thats what it has to do with Sept 11. And, I and most Americans dont give a Fuck what the "clerics" in the Middle East think either.

Originally Posted By THISISME:All of these things were done before any American/coalition or contractor bodies were dragged through the streets.

Which is a point many have missed. I can still remember the uproar when video of US POWs was shown on Arab TV. People were angry that their images were shown at all.

Now you have the US media showing images of Iraqi POWs. The images include sexual abuse. No it's not "torture" for the purposes of interrogation. It's sexual abuse for sport. I hope the soldiers involved dont bring their new sexual preferance home to their families.

For those who think there is nothing wrong with stripping a prisoner naked and forcing the prisoner to masterbate in the presence of guards of the opposite sex...would it be okay if the Deputies at the local county jail did that to your wife or sister next time she's picked up on a traffic warrant or for DUI?