If it happens during the test and the judges see it...it should be given consideration to the overall pointing score. No matter if it happens in the "bird field" or the "rabbit area". Scores can always be adjusted if something happens to change the judge's overall opinion of that dog's body of work. That said...the pointing you described may not have changed their opinion even if they did consider it.

3drahthaars wrote:Just my opinion but I believe that you are confusing the VZPO with the VGPO where it specifically states that all subjects are under evaluation until the final announcement of scores.

Generally, when a subject is completed, (e.g. search and pointing) and the numeric score and explanation given to handler under open judging it is closed...

You might entertain submitting the question at the next JGHV judging seminar for clarification or at the least referencing the QoTP to make sure that you are correct in your interpretation/practice...

3ds

Yes, I have done that and "open judging" is identical for the VZPO and the VGPO. That is why I prefer to discuss categories rather than numeric score when describing the dogs' performance. I will however bring it up again at the CE seminar in June since apparently some of our judges may be incorrectly interpreting "open judging".

3drahthaars wrote:Just my opinion but I believe that you are confusing the VZPO with the VGPO where it specifically states that all subjects are under evaluation until the final announcement of scores.

Generally, when a subject is completed, (e.g. search and pointing) and the numeric score and explanation given to handler under open judging it is closed...

You might entertain submitting the question at the next JGHV judging seminar for clarification or at the least referencing the QoTP to make sure that you are correct in your interpretation/practice...

3ds

Yes, I have done that and "open judging" is identical for the VZPO and the VGPO. That is why I prefer to discuss categories rather than numeric score when describing the dogs' performance. I will however bring it up again at the CE seminar in June since apparently some of our judges may be incorrectly interpreting "open judging".

I hear a lot of VRs are using praedicates... personally, I don't think it is in the spirit of the PO especially VJP.

I felt the same about double jeopardy and was vindicated when Uli finally clarified.

3drahthaars wrote:A good breeder will improve the breed by being able to recognize (good &bad) what wasn't captured on test day.

Good discussion,

3ds

great point - so far (and granted, my experience is limited) the judges I have interacted with in both tests expressed that very idea to the participants - that the test day was just a small window in the capabilities of the pup / dog

3drahthaars wrote:A good breeder will improve the breed by being able to recognize (good &bad) what wasn't captured on test day.

Good discussion,

3ds

.

great point - so far (and granted, my experience is limited) the judges I have interacted with in both tests expressed that very idea to the participants - that the test day was just a small window in the capabilities of the pup / dog

agreed - this has been a great read

Unfortunately, the demographic of the club is young and not as fanatical about hunting as in the past... and, breeding decisions live or die by the scores.

Guys used to be chomping at the bit to get pup hunting... now, it's all about training for the tests... you can easily see the pups that hunted hard their first fall vs. the training day pups.

As a judge (or breeder) it takes a hunter with a few dogs experience to really be able to watch and evaluate these dogs and likewise the humility to just listen when one doesn't...

Humility isn't a common trait of the average DD owner... neither is experience these days.

3drahthaars wrote:A good breeder will improve the breed by being able to recognize (good &bad) what wasn't captured on test day.

Good discussion,

3ds

.

great point - so far (and granted, my experience is limited) the judges I have interacted with in both tests expressed that very idea to the participants - that the test day was just a small window in the capabilities of the pup / dog

agreed - this has been a great read

Unfortunately, the demographic of the club is young and not as fanatical about hunting as in the past... and, breeding decisions live or die by the scores.

Guys used to be chomping at the bit to get pup hunting... now, it's all about training for the tests... you can easily see the pups that hunted hard their first fall vs. the training day pups.

As a judge (or breeder) it takes a hunter with a few dogs experience to really be able to watch and evaluate these dogs and likewise the humility to just listen when one doesn't...

Humility isn't a common trait of the average DD owner... neither is experience these days.