So you can only be good if you break 5 tackles behind the line of scrimmage, then out run the entire defense while juking 3-4 defenders?

Posting clips of a back running through gaping holes untouched does nothing to establish the talent of a running back. Any back who makes it to the NFL should be able to pick up big yardage through a huge hole.

If these are his "highlights," I rest my case. I wouldn't post clips of Walter Payton breaking away through a huge hole to prove his greatness, either.

Dafaq? This Terrell Davis dude is persistent. How dare he barrel roll his way into the endzone against the top ranked defense in the NFL against the run...and how dare he follow his lead blocks towards paydirt while showing his shiftiness by making a nice cutback towards the inside!!!! Clearly, he was a charlatan!!! He was barely touched so it doesn't count!

Perhaps he should have attended University of Kansas instead of Georgia. Then he would have really been special! Wait no...dude probably would have ended up being an obnoxious troll in cyberspace in his late twenties believing they know everything when in reality they really don't.

The funny thing is you were 5-8 years old when Terrell Davis played. You were eating fruit roll ups and probably still trying to learn how to read.

And then you come on this forum and pretend you are well versed enough to agree with the generic, cliche opinion. As usual.

Talk about obnoxious. You don't even have vivid memories of a time before the internet existed.

There's no display of shiftiness in that clip. He's following an easy cutback dictated by the read. He doesn't make a sharp cut at all - every back in football could hit that.

Every attempt you make to post a gif of Davis doing something impressive just makes you look worse.

I'm so glad JT has moved on. The funny thing is that his argument is the exact same slow, system, lowly drafted, every trait you say someone possesses is somehow some made up 'intangible' that has no bearing on the football field, and every video you show of someone performing is somehow a result of great blocking, a favorable matchup, or a blown assignment.

Don't get angry at me when you're the ones who keep posting examples that support my argument. That's your fault.

It's another bad argument, even if you do it correctly. I could post a few clips of just about any skill position player in football doing something well on a play, and it wouldn't prove a thing. It does nothing to establish the frequency in which they do it.

I'll see any gifs you can come up with for Terrell Davis and raise you about 100 other running backs.

Don't get angry at me when you're the ones who keep posting examples that support my argument. That's your fault.

It's another bad argument, even if you do it correctly. I could post a few clips of just about any skill position player in football doing something well on a play, and it wouldn't prove a thing. It does nothing to establish the frequency in which they do it.

I'll see any gifs you can come up with for Terrell Davis and raise you about 100 other running backs.

You have no argument all you do is say yeah but... and then come up with some long drawn out excuse that succeeds at nothing but wasting everyone's time.

You're not reading or understanding anything that I say. That's your problem.

Your arguments are bad ones. I've told you exactly why they are bad. You've already decided that you're right, and think that all you need to do to prove that is post a few clips of somebody doing something well on a football field.

That's not a good argument. You can find some highlights for any back in the league who gets a significant number of carries. Are you really going to deny that?

You're not reading or understanding anything that I say. That's your problem.

Your arguments are bad ones. I've told you exactly why they are bad. You've already decided that you're right, and think that all you need to do to prove that is post a few clips of somebody doing something well on a football field.

That's not a good argument. You can find some highlights for any back in the league who gets a significant number of carries. Are you really going to deny that?

I've understood everything you've said. I'm not accepting them because everything you say is a huge stretch on reality to meet your thesis. You have a very poor understanding of the people and topics you're arguing, and to accept your argument takes enormous leaps and generalizations of what actually happens on the football field. Pointing out the person somebody is matched up against and dismissing what happens entirely because of somebody's position, that somebody simply follows their blocking, that coverage was blown, dismissing any broken tackles or moves as aberrations, and not believing that route choice is a relevant skill is just a huge line of excuses.

At a certain point you're distorting what is actually happening on the field to support your argument. You're doing the same thing in this Davis argument. Schemes aren't these fool proof things that you seem to think that they are. These are genuinely talented players who produce. You can make these types of arguments against anyone that doesn't have breathtaking talent like Megatron. However, your trail of excuses in these kinds of arguments gets rather long rather quick.

Its honestly not worth the argument. TD was a great player. If you cannot see/grasp that he was markedly better these other zone backs then I don't know how to help you. If 100 other backs could do what TD did then 100 guys would have done it. If this system could consistently make nobodies into elite players than every team would do it.

Its honestly not worth the argument. TD was a great player. If you cannot see/grasp that he was markedly better these other zone backs then I don't know how to help you. If 100 other backs could do what TD did then 100 guys would have done it. If this system could consistently make nobodies into elite players than every team would do it.

Yeah, because Mike Shanahans and Alex Gibbses just grow on trees. Just copy their system...they are just irrelevant, right?

How about we refer to the Wes Welker argument once again, just to hammer home the point. "If the system was what was responsible for Welker, every team would have a Welker."

Well, a team before the New England Patriots had a Welker. Literally. The Miami Dolphins had Wes Welker, in the flesh.

Only Wes Welker, in the flesh, wasn't Wes Welker, 2007-2012. Wes Welker with the 2006 Dolphins was a 67-687-1 guy. But remember...if anyone could do it in the system, and it wasn't the greatness of Welker, every team would be doing it.

Yet somehow, the Dolphins actually had Wes Welker...and they didn't do it with Wes Welker. It's almost as if some coaches are really just that much better than others. It's almost as if the system actually matters.

I've understood everything you've said. I'm not accepting them because everything you say is a huge stretch on reality to meet your thesis. You have a very poor understanding of the people and topics you're arguing, and to accept your argument takes enormous leaps and generalizations of what actually happens on the football field. Pointing out the person somebody is matched up against and dismissing what happens entirely because of somebody's position, that somebody simply follows their blocking, that coverage was blown, dismissing any broken tackles or moves as aberrations, and not believing that route choice is a relevant skill is just a huge line of excuses.

At a certain point you're distorting what is actually happening on the field to support your argument. You're doing the same thing in this Davis argument. Schemes aren't these fool proof things that you seem to think that they are. These are genuinely talented players who produce. You can make these types of arguments against anyone that doesn't have breathtaking talent like Megatron. However, your trail of excuses in these kinds of arguments gets rather long rather quick.

What actually happened on the field is these guys gained lots of yards. I never disputed that point. So pointing out videos/clips of these guys gaining yards does nothing to help your argument.

The Davis/Welker supporters have established they will invent things to praise a player for on any play that results in production. It doesn't matter if it's a blown coverage or the hole is 10 yards wide, they will start talking about the player's "vision" and "awareness of the space around him" and "ability to follow his blocks."

I can't make these arguments against all that many players at all. Maurice Jones-Drew, for instance, has broken far too many tackles for me to even attempt to call him a product of anything. What am I going to say about Larry Fitzgerald? "Well, the system is the reason he just won yet another jump ball?" What am I going to say about Julio Jones? "Those 3 broken tackles on that long catch-and-run, and that corner he just burned by 4 yards on that bomb...Falcons' scheme?"

It's not hard to see talent.

When it's not there and somebody produces, that's a strong indication that the player is a product of something else. Saying a running back is great because of his "patience" is stupid. Anyone can be a patient runner. You don't have to be strong, fast, quick, or elusive to be patient. Patience is something that is coached.

I keep hearing something about someone regarding a "JT"? Who is this fellow? Hmm...well, I did hear of one such tale of someone below the age of 30 that has been banned from countless forums claiming to have all world knowledge on NFL players well before the time they were even born...and at the same time criticizing other people of a similar age for not being able to have witnessed those very same players...hmmm...well what can I say, HyPoCrIsY iS gReAt.

But alas, I'm still at a loss of who this individual could be. Hmm...

Well anyways...oh hey look! It's Fred Taylor dressed up like his favorite icon Terrell Davis in the Super Bowl NOT making plays on the game's biggest stage. Guess he decided to enter the NFL Draft a year early. Psssh, look at all of those Packers helping him too! What a sham!

Hitting the holes when they're there? Ha! The only runningbacks that are special are the ones that break several tackles at the inception of every play and don't rely on their blocking at all. Vision? Patience? Cutback ability? Delusions of grandeur I say!!! It's so easy a caveman can do it!!!

I think Chris Johnson is just massively overrated. I think it's wrong to couple Chris Johnson with Adrian Peterson. Just wrong.

Adrian Peterson is going to be a lock. A first ballot guy. Hopefully he can stay healthy and play at a high level for another 4 more years. Then he can become something special.

Chris Johnson has been average for the last two years. I don't even consider him a top 10 RB anymore. He has a lot to prove. Right now he's hanging his hat on that 2,000 yard season. And Peterson has accomplished far more. His dominance this year was about as impressive as any RB ever. He started slow and it looked like he rushed back from injury. He was good, but he wasn't the same player. Then he just exploded and played as good as he ever has. If he was fully healthy at the start, then he might have had a chance to obliterate the record. He's the first runner that I've seen that has challenged the greatness of Barry Sanders. As I've said before, Peterson is in a league of his own. Everyone is playing for second best.

Johnson has only been in the top 5 in rushing twice. Peterson has already led the NFL in rushing twice (runner up another year). Two times in five years? And he's declining already? Outside of 2009 and 2010, I don't think Johnson has been a distinctive player. Maybe he needs a change of scenery, but right now this should be the prime of his career. Not a time where he's fading into mediocrity (and at times well below mediocre). Peterson has only fallen out of the top 6 in rushing once, and that was due to an injury shortened season. Peterson has been in the top five (or six) in rushing every other year.

I would certainly consider Arian Foster before Chis Johnson. Now, it's still very early in both players career, but Foster has been dominant since he entered the league. He's already led the NFL in rushing and he's scored 10+ rushing TDs in each of his first 3 seasons (12+ total TDs in each). I think for the last three years Foster has been in contention with Peterson for best RB in the NFL. Marshawn Lynch has inserted himself into the discussion the past two seasons, but Foster has pretty much been right there with Peterson for the last three.

Not to mention, the playoffs... Foster is doing work. He's gone over 150 total yards in each of his first three playoff games, and he's scored at least 1 TD in each game. He's rushed for over 130 yards in each postseason game.

I'm also very interested to see where Lynch's career goes. He has been great the last two years and I think he's the second best RB in the NFL right now. He has found himself in a great situation. He is probably going to have a lot left in the tank, to the point where he could have another 5 great years ahead of him. With his raw ability, and now being in a position for success, the potential for huge numbers over the next three to five years is certainly there. He already has a signature run in the playoffs.

I would consider Peterson, Foster and Lynch the Top 3 RBs in the NFL right now. And I'd say they have the best chances going forward to solidify themselves as great players. Lycnh has personality traits that scare me though.

I've stated several times how Peterson is the better player, will unanimously go down in history as the better player, and how AD just blew the doors off CJ with his historic performance this season. But saying CJ also deserves consideration is by no means a slight to AD. Just because AD is the most deserving of the HoF doesn't mean he has to be the only one.

You're not alone in thinking CJ's overrated, but I wholeheartedly believe he's not only a Top 10 RB, but still a special player. He was 9th in rushing this year, so he's still performing as a Top 10 RB. He actually had a damn good year considering 4 of the Tits' 5 starting OL ended the year on IR. This group wasn't even good to begin with. That's part of the reason Locker struggled this year too. He was scrambling around for his life. What I've seen is that even at his worst and playing behind a terrible OL, he's still a 1,000-yard RB. I think it's reasonable to believe that once the Tits get a line staffed by starting NFL caliber players, then he'll go back to becoming the dominant RB we saw over his first 3 seasons.

Foster and Lynch are great RB's too, and I'm sure many would rank them ahead of CJ at this point in their careers. I don't think Lynch stands any chance of making it though. Those '09 and '10 seasons are killer, and this year was his first great year in his career. He'll have to be Super Saiyan SSJ Robobeast Mode in the 6th-10th years in his career, which is tough since he'll be reaching his 30's at the end of that span. Foster is super hard to predict since he'll face the Shanny/Kubiak ZBS stigma. Dude's raking up the yards and especially the TD's. I'd still bet on CJ over either of them, though. The 2009 season is the ultimate trump card, and even if that's a huge reason for CJ's headstart, it still counts.

I keep hearing something about someone regarding a "JT"? Who is this fellow? Hmm...well, I did hear of one such tale of someone below the age of 30 that has been banned from countless forums claiming to have all world knowledge on NFL players well before the time they were even born...and at the same time criticizing other people of a similar age for not being able to have witnessed those very same players...hmmm...well what can I say, HyPoCrIsY iS gReAt.

But alas, I'm still at a loss of who this individual could be. Hmm...

Well anyways...oh hey look! It's Fred Taylor dressed up like his favorite icon Terrell Davis in the Super Bowl NOT making plays on the game's biggest stage. Guess he decided to enter the NFL Draft a year early. Psssh, look at all of those Packers helping him too! What a sham!

Hitting the holes when they're there? Ha! The only runningbacks that are special are the ones that break several tackles at the inception of every play and don't rely on their blocking at all. Vision? Patience? Cutback ability? Delusions of grandeur I say!!! It's so easy a caveman can do it!!!

Ness at his passive-aggressive worst. What a dweeb. Keep referring to me in the third person by my initials so you can pretend you're still ignoring me while you respond to every post I make. It obviously means you're, like, totally hurting my feelings and stuff.

I'm several years older than you are, and even with that advantage, I don't rely on my memory in making judgments. I have an extensive game library and one day I plan to create a website with scouting reports for every player since the merger. I can do that, because I actually analyze football.

You, on the other hand, find playoff games on Youtube and make gifs of Davis running through the hole for some yards and being brought down by the first tackler, as if you're making a point.

Not getting enough attention on 49ers.com after the 30,000 or so posts you've made over there in the past couple years?

Ness at his passive-aggressive worst. What a dweeb. Keep referring to me in the third person by my initials so you can pretend you're still ignoring me while you respond to every post I make. It obviously means you're, like, totally hurting my feelings and stuff.

I'm several years older than you are, and even with that advantage, I don't rely on my memory in making judgments. I have an extensive game library and one day I plan to create a website with scouting reports for every player since the merger. I can do that, because I actually analyze football.

You, on the other hand, find playoff games on Youtube and make gifs of Davis running through the hole for some yards and being brought down by the first tackler, as if you're making a point.

Not getting enough attention on 49ers.com after the 30,000 or so posts you've made over there in the past couple years?

You may have an extensive game library, but is the cabinet it's housed in made of mahogany?

__________________
BK

Quote:

Originally Posted by AcheTen

JPP is a better and more productive player than Brandon Graham

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Originally Posted by abaddon41_80

Is Shaun Hill a top 10 QB? Definitely not. Is he a top 20 one? Almost certainly.

\ I don't rely on my memory in making judgments. I have an extensive game library and one day I plan to create a website with scouting reports for every player since the merger. I can do that, because I actually analyze football.

Ok, well seeing as how you have to watch tape and do scouting reports for ~25,000 players, you might as well leave here and start working on that.

Ok, well seeing as how you have to watch tape and do scouting reports for ~25,000 players, you might as well leave here and start working on that.

Apparently this JT fellow is literally the only one in the planet with access to fully broadcasted game tape. At least that's the word on the street. Hey take that goon Terrell Davis for instance, I mean that 1997 AFC Championship game is just floating on YouTube. I mean, no way anyone else could have an extensive source of originally broadcasted material. Nope. YouTube is the only answer.

Ness at his passive-aggressive worst. What a dweeb. Keep referring to me in the third person by my initials so you can pretend you're still ignoring me while you respond to every post I make. It obviously means you're, like, totally hurting my feelings and stuff.

I'm several years older than you are, and even with that advantage, I don't rely on my memory in making judgments. I have an extensive game library and one day I plan to create a website with scouting reports for every player since the merger. I can do that, because I actually analyze football.

You, on the other hand, find playoff games on Youtube and make gifs of Davis running through the hole for some yards and being brought down by the first tackler, as if you're making a point.

Not getting enough attention on 49ers.com after the 30,000 or so posts you've made over there in the past couple years?

Apparently this JT fellow is literally the only one in the planet with access to fully broadcasted game tape. At least that's the word on the street. Hey take that goon Terrell Davis for instance, I mean that 1997 AFC Championship game is just floating on YouTube. I mean, no way anyone else could have an extensive source of originally broadcasted material. Nope. YouTube is the only answer.

Not all those players are remarkable. That's what your dumbass can't understand. Olandis Garay did next to noting in the NFL. He had 4 great games one year and ended up with a solid rushing total. Mike Anderson had one very good season. Then he turned into a short yardage back. Clinton Portis actually was a great player, and about as close to a Hall of Fame player as one gets. Oddly enough, he was the most successful player not named Terrell Davis. What a coincidence? A really talented player excelling more than the lesser talented players in a great system. Who would have thunk it? Reuben Droughns? Really? Tatum Bell and Mike Bell... Those are great players to mention. Really productive guys. Almost everyone remembers those guys. They definitely made their mark on the NFL. Start talking about Selvin Young too. Or the little bastard from West Virginia that blew up in the Texans system. And then did what?

The NFL has proven time and time again that any player, at any position, can have instant success. The player that produces year after year when the league has found their weaknesses, then it becomes difficult to replicate. TD didn't just have continued success, he got better and better and better each and every season. His success went beyond just a player being a product of the system. He was just that damn good.

As much success as those RBs had in the Broncos system, with Portis being the only one having remotely comparable success (which is still not even close to what TD did), none of them are worth remembering. None of them won league MVP. None of them won a Super Bowl, let alone two. None of them were an MVP of a Super Bowl. None of them scored over 20 TDs in a season. None of them broke the record for most rushing attempts in a single season and most rushing yards in a single season (including playoffs). None of them had a run of dominance for four consecutive seasons. None of them were able to keep teir jobs, or solidify themselves as the best RB on the team. None of them were considered the best RB in the NFL. None of them compared to Terrell Davis. Not one did anything resembling the success Davis had.

If you have to skew stats and take averages and extrapolate numbers, then that's a good sign that you're forcing an argument. I simply think the legacy of John Elway was significantly altered because of Davis. Davis was a special player that directly impacted the Super Bowl twice. That Broncos team should have more players in the Hall of Fame than John Elway, Gary Zimmerman and Shannon Sharpe. Atwater and Davis were every bit as great, and as important to their back-to-back Super Bowl wins.

And for as much as Davis impacted the career of Elway, he also impacted the career of Brett Favre. If Favre went back-to-back, then his legend is altered.

__________________

Quote:

Originally Posted by Scott Wright

I honestly believe Reggie Bush has turned into exactly the type of player I envisioned.

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Originally Posted by PossibleCabbage

I would like it if there were more successful black Quarterbacks in the NFL...

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Originally Posted by bearsfan_51

iamcandian lives in a cabin in the Yukon Territory and writes letters to railroad barons about the price of hard tack.

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Originally Posted by GatorsBullsFan

I could possibly see Matthew Stafford Dropping out of the 1st round

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Originally Posted by GoRavens

Tahj Boyd has the best fundamentals of any QB in this class, I think his game translates great to the NFL.

Not all those players are remarkable. That's what your dumbass can't understand.

Of course they're not. That's exactly my point.

But you put them on the Broncos at RB, and their numbers suddenly are. Gee, I wonder why.

Quote:

Olandis Garay did next to noting in the NFL. He had 4 great games one year and ended up with a solid rushing total.

1159 rushing yards in 12 games. That's more yards in fewer games than Davis got his rookie year. Gary, by the way, was also a rookie.

Quote:

Mike Anderson had one very good season. Then he turned into a short yardage back.

1484 yards and 15 TDs on 5.0 yards/carry in 13 games is more than "very good," statistically speaking. And he didn't suddenly turn into one - Shanahan turned him into one. Why? Because Shanahan can do whatever he wants.

Not that he was turned into a short yardage back to begin with. Short yardage backs don't post the averages he did in his subsequent seasons. He merely turned into a rotational back.

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Clinton Portis actually was a great player, and about as close to a Hall of Fame player as one gets.

As close to a Hall of Fame player as one gets? What does that even mean?

The closest anyone gets to being a Hall of Fame player is being a Hall of Fame player. Jerry Rice is as close to a Hall of Fame player as one gets.

Portis isn't a Hall of Fame player.

Quote:

Oddly enough, he was the most successful player not named Terrell Davis. What a coincidence? A really talented player excelling more than the lesser talented players in a great system.

Portis excelled more than Davis, too.

Then he went to Washington and he was never as effective. Imagine that. From averaging 5.5 yards/carry in back-to-back seasons to never averaging more than 4.3 in Washington. I'm sure that had nothing to do with the blocking scheme, though.

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Who would have thunk it? Reuben Droughns? Really?

1230 yards in 13 games.

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Tatum Bell and Mike Bell... Those are great players to mention.

They are given the fact that they were effective in Denver and basically useless when they left the Broncos.

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Really productive guys.

They were in Denver. They weren't elsewhere.

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Almost everyone remembers those guys. They definitely made their mark on the NFL. Start talking about Selvin Young too. Or the little bastard from West Virginia that blew up in the Texans system. And then did what?

People should remember those guys so they can figure out that Terrell Davis was just the first in a long line of frauds who put up huge numbers in that scheme.

Slaton fumbled away the starting job.

Quote:

The NFL has proven time and time again that any player, at any position, can have instant success. The player that produces year after year when the league has found their weaknesses, then it becomes difficult to replicate. TD didn't just have continued success, he got better and better and better each and every season. His success went beyond just a player being a product of the system. He was just that damn good.

Actually, most players who fail in the NFL are failures from the very beginning. Guys don't typically start out brilliantly only to fade into obscurity within a year or two.

It becomes difficult to replicate success when your own coach shrugs off your 1500 yard, 15 TD, 5.0 yards/carry season and demotes or trades you for Champ Bailey. That's what you're missing in all of this - these guys didn't just have one big year and then plummet in the same system. They had a big year and then Shanahan moved on quickly.

Quote:

As much success as those RBs had in the Broncos system, with Portis being the only one having remotely comparable success (which is still not even close to what TD did),

What do you mean, "not even close?" The regular season numbers are very close. In fact, one could make the case Portis's numbers were better. He was only given 2 years in Denver...and 1591 in 13 games on 5.5 yards/carry was well ahead of what Davis did in his second year in Denver.

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none of them are worth remembering. None of them won league MVP. None of them won a Super Bowl, let alone two. None of them were an MVP of a Super Bowl. None of them scored over 20 TDs in a season. None of them broke the record for most rushing attempts in a single season and most rushing yards in a single season (including playoffs).

Last I checked, football is a team game.

Put Terrell Davis on the 2000 Broncos and let's see if they win the Super Bowl. Something tells me if Brian Griese had been his quarterback, he's going home empty-handed that year.

I don't give a rat's ass about his MVPs, his rings, any of that nonsense. Walter Payton won as many rings as Jamal Lewis. I know who I'm taking if given a choice between the two.

David scored 21 TDs exactly once. His other years are right in line with what the other backs were doing. A running back's touchdowns are heavily affected by the effectiveness of the offense overall. When you have a John Elway-led passing attack, you tend to get more opportunities to carry the ball inside the 5 than when your QB is Brian Griese.

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None of them had a run of dominance for four consecutive seasons.

Again, they weren't given the chance. They tore it up for a year or two, and Shanahan moved on. At that point, Shanahan knew exactly how interchangeable running backs were to them.

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None of them were able to keep teir jobs,

I love how you just bury your head in the sand and make statements like this.

I think it's safe to say they didn't lose their jobs because of anything they didn't do. Shanahan had complete confidence at that point that who the running back was in his system was irrelevant.

Quote:

or solidify themselves as the best RB on the team. None of them were considered the best RB in the NFL. None of them compared to Terrell Davis. Not one did anything resembling the success Davis had.

Except they did. Check the numbers.

Davis didn't win those Super Bowl rings. The Denver Broncos did.

Quote:

If you have to skew stats and take averages and extrapolate numbers, then that's a good sign that you're forcing an argument. I simply think the legacy of John Elway was significantly altered because of Davis. Davis was a special player that directly impacted the Super Bowl twice. That Broncos team should have more players in the Hall of Fame than John Elway, Gary Zimmerman and Shannon Sharpe. Atwater and Davis were every bit as great, and as important to their back-to-back Super Bowl wins.

And for as much as Davis impacted the career of Elway, he also impacted the career of Brett Favre. If Favre went back-to-back, then his legend is altered.

And yet no mention of Davis's legacy being influenced by Elway. Make Griese the QB of the 97 and 98 Broncos and let's see how many people are arguing he should be a HOFer. Or Jake Plummer.

When someone calls TD a 'system RB' and a fraud player, IMO it would help immensely for that person to define what a great NFL RB is, what his attributes are, and players who fall into this category.

Also a great NFL RB, or a good/great NFL player generally speaking should not be defined as future HOFer, since there are many great players/talents throughout the league who aren't going to be in Canton.