To be honest, after a few games I am seeing a point to AoS from a quick game with no real fore thought needed, assuming you just use the box as is. As soon as you start to expand beyond the starter box it all falls down a little for me.Most of the flaws can be overcome with a little common sense, although this does not excuse the writing standards or the mess that is the background to date.

Overall I am more inclined to stay with a ranked battle system, but AoS is a bit of a break from the norm if I fancy a change.

I'm seeing plenty of people on numerous message boards, for example Daeron on our beloved d.net, putting lots of time and effort into theorising various aspects of the new AoS ruleset, with various mathematical breakdowns and the like. There also seem to be lots of debates on the tactical side of it, chiefly on maximising pile in moves and optimal initial deployment. Lots of cogent debates going up and down the web, it seems.

My question may be blunt, but: Why the bloody hell would you put that much effort into it?

If I may, there are several reasons:- That's a new toy to play with for us mathammer lovers, if only for the sake of studying it, no matter the quality of the rules.- For us with a scientist background, it is not enough to have a feeling for a theory (such as "AoS sucks"), we need to get proofs; and even if it easy to prove that it sucks to play AoS in the same way we used to play WH8, it is much harder to prove that it sucks to play AoS in any possible way: you need first to imagine all those possible ways, then test them; only thereafter are you entitled to a scientific opinion.- Just in case GW proved right and got flocks of new rookies playing this new fantasy model wargame, we don't want to tell these youngsters to get off and come back only when they learned to play real games, would we? So we get prepared, just in case.- Maybe we like beer and pretzels?

_________________Winds never stop blowing, Oceans are borderless. Get a ship and a crew, so the World will be ours! Today the World, tomorrow Nagg!{--|oBrotherhood of the Coast!o|--}

I've played around 15 games of AoS... My experiences haven't improved much. Lots of terrain helps, but overall it's just lacking something for me. I'd say the movement phase is the part that hurts me the worst.

I've played around 8 games of Kings of War, for me it's a much more fun game that takes around the same time to play a game of AoS with half the model count. And I like more models on the table.

But the worst thing about AoS for me is the negotiating that takes place before a game begins. In my humble opinion, in order for games to be fair, you need to find a way of balancing. Which isn't so hard, but when I have to ask my opponent how he balances the game we about to play. That's like starting monopoly and asking how much each dollar bill is worth... It takes me around an hour to even start a frickin game!!!! Because no one ever knows what to bring!!!! You have to haggle over a comp to begin with, 10 minutes. you have to write your army list, (for some people 20-30 minutes). You have to set up terrain (5 minutes) Then you have to deploy. Before you even move a single mini... Just takes too long. Besides when you have to write a list at the venue you gotta bring every single model you own. Then you gotta dig them out of the corners of your carrying cases.... Once the game is started its above meh at best. But starting the game is such a pain.

I've found that it makes the game a pain to play with people outside your circle. Just so many practically required house rules. Problem is that I love playing with people outside my circle!

Age of Sigmar got rid of all semblance of balance, perhaps on purpose, and I believe that if you want to enjoy it (if that is possible, I haven't been given a chance to try yet) you also have to forget about balance as you knew it from WFB.

Simply put, you show up for a game of AoS with whatever minis you felt like bringing, and start deploying. You can either use all the stuff you brought, or decide to counter specific choices of your opponent and go for sudden death.

If you've ever played WarCry (what a shame GW didn't support it at all) you would recognize the concept. You have a limited selection of units (AoS - limited by the size of your wallet, ability or willingness to carry them, WarCry - limited size of your deck) and make the best out of it.

Yes, oddballs like an entire army consisting of blood knights are possible... yet highly unlikely, have you seen the price tag on those guys?

So skip steps 1 and 2 from your list, they are not supposed to be a part of AoS. See if it gets any better (it may, it may not)

I'm seeing plenty of people on numerous message boards, for example Daeron on our beloved d.net, putting lots of time and effort into theorising various aspects of the new AoS ruleset, with various mathematical breakdowns and the like. There also seem to be lots of debates on the tactical side of it, chiefly on maximising pile in moves and optimal initial deployment. Lots of cogent debates going up and down the web, it seems.

My question may be blunt, but: Why the bloody hell would you put that much effort into it?

Simple. I enjoy doing that. I don't do it for a return on invested effort. For me it's like a sudoku in a news paper. You wouldn't ask anyone solving the Sudoku in a news paper "Why are you putting so much effort in the news paper?"I know solving the Sudoku doesn't make the news better either. But I enjoy doing that, and it's part of the fun of having a news paper.

_________________I love me a bowl of numbers to crunch for breakfast. If you need anything theoryhammered, I gladly take requests.

"I move unseen. I hide in light and shadow. I move faster than a bird. No plate of armour ever stopped me. I strike recruits and veterans with equal ease. And all shiver at my coldest of whispers."- The stiff breeze

I have skipped steps 1 and 2 from my list plenty of times. That's why there are steps 1 and 2 on my list XD

Anyways, games are usually very one sided even with steps 1 and 2, and without its not even close. For a narrative thing it could be cool because battles don't have to be fair in narrative, but for just a casual pickup game which is all I usually have time for? I'd rather play a game that ends up being close.

I mean it's like playing monopoly Real Life version. One person starts with a shiz ton of money and property, and everyone else starts with nothing and no property. Whenever I want a game that's one sided and no fun I'll play one I like to call "Pay the Rent" or "Student Loans"

- For us with a scientist background, it is not enough to have a feeling for a theory (such as "AoS sucks"), we need to get proofs; and even if it easy to prove that it sucks to play AoS in the same way we used to play WH8, it is much harder to prove that it sucks to play AoS in any possible way: you need first to imagine all those possible ways, then test them; only thereafter are you entitled to a scientific opinion.

The problem there is that we're dealing with a high degree of subjectivity. It's largely impossible to prove that AoS is good or bad, but it has received a significant negative reaction from people for a variety of reasons (not just the usual resistance you get to new editions).

Calisson wrote:

- Just in case GW proved right and got flocks of new rookies playing this new fantasy model wargame, we don't want to tell these youngsters to get off and come back only when they learned to play real games, would we? So we get prepared, just in case.- Maybe we like beer and pretzels?

There are almost certainly simpler and "better" wargames to get people into this sort of hobby - X-Wing, for example. That sort of game has simple rules, little ambiguity and pre-painted models - the barrier of entry is pretty low compared to GW's attempt to lower the barrier (with their costly terminators stormcast eternals).

Anyway, Frostgrave came in the mail this week, I'm done reading most of it. Should be up the alley of anyone looking for a better-balanced, modern Mordheim. Ten models at most and you can use anything you like, and you can already play it on a 2x2' table so it's ideal for weekly get togethers.

"I move unseen. I hide in light and shadow. I move faster than a bird. No plate of armour ever stopped me. I strike recruits and veterans with equal ease. And all shiver at my coldest of whispers."- The stiff breeze

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