Are there any 4bt's with a zf-5 behind them from factory or this are all custom jobs? I find many zf-5 transmissions in My area for cheap and I already know this are good and would work for My application but I'm unsure if this where ever offered behind cummins or not.

Thank You for any help, I can't stand this 4spd bs.

93FordCTD

11-22-2010, 07:42 PM

Well after some reading I think they are aftermarket adapter plate only, too bad I really want a 5spd behind this cummins but it is hard to find a gmc nv4500. Ford offered a lot more manual tranny than GMC for sure.

47Ford - 1.5Ton

11-22-2010, 08:58 PM

NO 4BT's came with ZF's behind them from the 'factory' but they came with the small block ford T18 or T19 4 speeds..... this 'small block bellhousing' pattern is the same as small block ZF 5 speeds......

aka use the 'factory ford adapter plate' and put a ZF behind it that WAS hooked up to a ford small block motor...

what I have hear was 'at one time' hooked up to a Ford T18 or T19 four speed.... I simply removed the 4 speed and bolted on the 5 speed....

I can find all this information in the cummins tech section stickies...

NEXT TIME please utilize the search button and the stickies / FAQ section......

~M

93FordCTD

11-22-2010, 09:26 PM

I did, that is why I started the second post sine I found out they are not factory adapters. Anyway, if I go that route I would need also the FW, clutch and PP that was on for the T19 as well I assume? or is it the FW for the T19 and a new clutch and PP for a zf?

Thank You.

47Ford - 1.5Ton

11-22-2010, 10:17 PM

ummm

no the ford adapters are 'factory' they came on a TON of stepvans............

I have no idea what FW and PP stand for..... sorry :(

The Ford ZF came in two sizes small block and big block/diesel th small block hooks up to the factory made ford small block plate that came with alot of stepvans

The big block/diesel version ZF will need the expensive adapter plate that is aftermarket......

This thread found in the transmission sticky will be able to answer all of your questions pertaining to this subject....

http://www.4btswaps.com/forum/showthread.php?t=841

Either your confused about that there were two different versions of ZF (smallblock vs. big/diesel) or I'm mis understanding.... the 'FORD ZF' adapation can me made with "FACTORY" parts aka find a utilimaster step van that had a T19... unbolt the 4 speed, bolt on the 5 speed... same clutch, starter, EVERYTHING)

Good luck!

~M

tractor_boy

11-23-2010, 12:12 AM

You need the adapter plate and flywheel from the ford bread vans with 4bt. Then use the clutch, pressure plate and slave cylinder that were originally in front of the ZF. Everything bolts up and works just fine this way.

RedZerOne

11-23-2010, 05:53 AM

Not to hi-jack the tread, but does anyone have an opinion if a diesel ZF-5 would worth the expense compared to a small block ZF-5 or the Mazda 5 speed?

93FordCTD

11-23-2010, 07:15 AM

Thank You guys this cleared all My questions. By FW I mean flywheel and PP pressure plate but You already answered that in detail. The small block zf I guess is the gas zf which is different than the diesel zf both on bolt pattern and also the 1st gear on the gas zf (the one behind the 460 from ford) is lower than the diesel version. Great those are also cheaper, I found some around here in good condition for $200 some time ago but didn't think it was possible to mate them with factory parts.

tractor_boy

11-23-2010, 07:36 AM

Not to hi-jack the tread, but does anyone have an opinion if a diesel ZF-5 would worth the expense compared to a small block ZF-5 or the Mazda 5 speed?

If you're gonna build a torque monster, probably stick with the ZF gas. Just as strong as the diesel ZF, and although the ratios are not as ideal for a diesel engine, the gas ZF adapter setup is much cheaper. Plus with all that power to spare, trust me you will never notice you have a granny low 1st or a large gap from 3rd to 4th.

If you're gonna keep your 4BT bone stock, might want to consider the M5R2, and then possibly the diesel ZF if you come across one cheap. If you have a tight trans tunnel, the M5R2 fits easier.

d600diesel

09-22-2013, 08:49 PM

There are three different bell housing patterns for the ZF5, small block, big block, and diesel. The common bread truck adapter (t18,T19) is the small block version. There is also a factory (Cummins made) adapter for the diesel bell housing as well, I don't know the original application but I used it in my truck. It uses the same small flywheel (11" clutch) as the small block adapter.
The Powerstroke-era ZF5 has different gearing than the IDI one and is rated for more torque (470 vs. 420).

Lowegt

09-22-2013, 09:38 PM

News flash there is only 2. Big block/diesel share one and the small block. Zf6s have several bell housings (5.4L, V10, 7.3L PSD, 6.0L PSD and 6.4L PSD).

No Zf5 transmissions were ever placed behind the 4BT from the factory. Only ford ones were used were the T18 and T19 4 speeds. best tranny for the 4BT is the small block (wide ratio). ZF5s had 2 torque ratings the older ones up until 1996 were 420ft/lbs (ZF5s-42) and later ones were 470ft/lbs (ZF5s-47).

You can get a cheap Mazda M5R2 (was in F150s) for about $800 on ebay. But its low torque rating of only 330ft/lbs would not be ideal for a towing rig or high performance. But you cannot get a reman ZF5 small block for under $1500 ($1200 after you give the core). The adapter plate is $795 from destroked.com or if you get a 4bt with the small block ford bell housing that's money you save.

d600diesel

09-23-2013, 09:44 AM

Actually, no, big block and diesel do not share the same bolt pattern, that is what I was trying to clarify by my post. They look close but if you measure between holes they are not the same. I have an early diesel one behind my 6BT in my 72 Dodge, I like the close gearing but reverse is a bit too tall (3.79), especially combined with 3.54 gears. I plan on swapping over to a Powerstroke era trans when I have the down time.
I plan on installing a 4BT in my 1980 Dodge Kary Van with the small-block ZF5(4BT is currently in Ford-chassis bread van).
The bread truck has a T-19, the adapter will bolt up to the small block ZF5.

4x4_Welder

09-23-2013, 11:35 AM

The top two holes on the bog block one are a bit closer than the diesel ones, but can be reamed out to fit and everything else is the same. So, the same but different.
The diesel guts can be put into a small block housing, giving the close spacing you really need for the 4BT. I wouldn't want to run a deep granny or large steps with an engine with that low of a redline. I have a diesel ZF behind the IDI in my F250, and even that spacing with the higher redline can get a bit wide.

twiisted71

09-23-2013, 11:47 AM

I have seen several indications of ZFs behind 4BTs FROM FORD!!! But only in S. American markets. Check with Cripple Rooster for an absolute answer. Don't know what hoops you'd need to jump through to get a Ford "diesel" adapter plate or if its the same exact one we can get here from SBF bread vans.

69rambler

09-23-2013, 11:48 PM

The top two holes on the bog block one are a bit closer than the diesel ones, but can be reamed out to fit and everything else is the same. So, the same but different.
The diesel guts can be put into a small block housing, giving the close spacing you really need for the 4BT. I wouldn't want to run a deep granny or large steps with an engine with that low of a redline. I have a diesel ZF behind the IDI in my F250, and even that spacing with the higher redline can get a bit wide.

The 460 pattern and the 7.3 diesel are very different. There isn't any way to modify two holes and interchange the two. They use different dowel pin sizes and locations.

The modern aftermarket adapters, especially the one not requiring you cut the block or the bellhousing have advantages over the old breadvan adapters. You can use a 13" Dodge flywheel and Clutch, modern, common starter and they're thinner.

4x4_Welder

09-24-2013, 02:27 AM

You'll have to tell that to the IDI crowd on FTE then, there are at least two who say they have run a gasser trans behind a diesel with this modification.

69rambler

09-24-2013, 09:54 AM

You'll have to tell that to the IDI crowd on FTE then, there are at least two who say they have run a gasser trans behind a diesel with this modification.

The patterns are similar shape, but not the same geometry. The dowel pins are different size and complete different location. If anyone hogged out holes and bolted it up they ignored the importance of the dowel pins.

kawamatt2

09-24-2013, 07:56 PM

The diesel guts can be put into a small block housing,
Not true, the diesel input shaft is too short. Read this post and thread for more info.
http://www.4btswaps.com/forum/showthread.php?10597-ford-ZF-trans&p=80641&viewfull=1#post80641

The 460 pattern and the 7.3 diesel are very different. There isn't any way to modify two holes and interchange the two. They use different dowel pin sizes and locations.

The modern aftermarket adapters, especially the one not requiring you cut the block or the bellhousing have advantages over the old breadvan adapters. You can use a 13" Dodge flywheel and Clutch, modern, common starter and they're thinner.
Its more than two holes, but apparently can be done.
http://www.oilburners.net/forums/showthread.php?34788-Compatability-of-ZF-Gas-460-trans-with-IDI