If this is your first visit, be sure to
check out the FAQ by clicking the
link above. You may have to register
before you can post: click the register link above to proceed. To start viewing messages,
select the forum that you want to visit from the selection below.

torn

I'm still torn on how speedball/X-ball has affected the sport overall.

A part of me thinks rate of fire and air fields just completely changed paintball from a fun game in the woods into a "sport" where those who could run and slide and shoot 30+bps...and AFFORD the equipment, paint, practice, etc...pushed us rec ballers to the side...laughing at us for our Spyders and Tippmanns. In doing so, they attacked the base of the pyramid and the entire industry started to crumble.

On the other hand, if paintball is ever going to be mainstream, it has to have a constant flow of interest...and it has to have the AGG teenagers pushing for faster markers and hoppers and better paint. And pushing for high school teams and semi-pro/pro development. If it wasn't for the speedball guys, we wouldn't have the quality of paint we do now...everybody would still be shooting Brass Eagle, PMI, or Zap with the rich kids shooting old Marbs.

So Speedball/Airball...jury is still out.

I think FPO was a "negative" as it became popular. It made fields profitable, which was a good thing; but it drove up the prices to the point that players started retracting from fields and avoiding them. I played a LOT of Outback/Outlaw paintball where players REFUSED to go to fields...they couldn't justify the extra $20 a case for paint and $15 to play...and having to play with noobs and aug jerks. So they bought reasonably priced paint, a large tank of CO2 for $1 fills...and they all just gathered at Outback/Outlaw fields.

Just a guess, but I'd say 95% of paintball players have never played x-ball or know what it is. I'd also guess that 80% of paintball players have NEVER bought paint anywhere but at a professional field.

nope

Originally Posted by hunter100

Just a guess, but I'd say 95% of paintball players have never played x-ball or know what it is. I'd also guess that 80% of paintball players have NEVER bought paint anywhere but at a professional field.

And WOW you'd be wrong. I'm not sure about X-Ball...you may be right on that one. But paint sales and players playing rec ball on their on or nearby land...MUCH percentage than that. If I had to guess...I'd say rec field paint sales make up 45%...65% TOPS.

BYOP is the first thing I look for in a field...and MANY do the same thing.

And WOW you'd be wrong. I'm not sure about X-Ball...you may be right on that one. But paint sales and players playing rec ball on their on or nearby land...MUCH percentage than that. If I had to guess...I'd say rec field paint sales make up 45%...65% TOPS.

BYOP is the first thing I look for in a field...and MANY do the same thing.

First off, I believe you would need to differentiate between commercial fields (which was probably intended) and professional fields (we all know there are too few of these).

The vast majority of the players probably only go out 1 or 2 times a year. So they don't know any other fields other than the one their friend brought them. Or if you are a parent, go to the most convenient one.

I would say that BYOP would only be an option for the largest operators since they have a stable customer base to make enough money off of field and air fees.

I would say that BYOP would only be an option for the largest operators since they have a stable customer base to make enough money off of field and air fees.

I find that it is the smaller fields that are more willing to do BYOP. They typically charge an extra $10-20 on admission for BYOP, since they aren't making any money off of paint. The larger fields are usually more strict about paint and rules in general, which I actually prefer.

Don't forget about outlaw play. That's got to be a significant portion of the paintball market as well.

And I'm fine with FPO so long as its reasonably priced and is good quality paint. I know what prices are on paint for distributors and dealers, and a FPO field that has a large customer base doesn't need to gouge the players. You can do it 2 ways - jack up the price and sell to a small amount of customers, or set a reasonable price and sell to a lot of customers. The volume would make up the difference as far as total profit goes, but it depends on what amount of work the field owner wants to put in and what level of goodwill they want to foster.

I actually prefer FPO when it's done right. That way I'm not getting hit with cheapo junk paint that stains or is dangerous (Monster Balls)

Nearly every field I play at is FPO. I don't mind it so much as long as they are fair. We have one field that we went to only once due to costs. Not only were they charging a $25 field fee, they were charging like $60-70 for paint and additional fees for all day air. Actually, just looked it up and not sure if they changed it, but currently, they are charging $25 for entry and $89 for a case of paint. ADA is included. At $115 and a 2.5 hour drive to play rec ball, we only went the one time. I can partially understand these costs for a scenario game with tons of refs, props etc, but not for a day of rec play. We havent been back since.

Here's another question: what do people see as potential future game changers?

I'd say

1 . a truly low cost walkable mech (probably not high quality but simple enough to be relatively reliable anyway.) Basically what the enmey might evolve into given a year or two

2. On a vastly more hypothetical note: Anything that improves precision and accuracy. This is probably new paint, but it's probably also a new system to fire it. I know there are a few impractical first takes on this. I don't know if anything does, or even can ever work

I started in the 1989 and I bought the Bushmaster Deluxe that I have to this day. I will look at the question from the recball / woodsball side since that is what I've always preferred to play.

When the OP asks 'what markers changed the game?', I take that to mean which markers have actually changed how recball / woodsball is played.

I get how a lot of folks cite the new technological innovations but, their associated costs often keep their appearance on the recball / woodsball field to a minimum. The others find ways to work around them and a balance is at least temporarily maintained. I distinctly remember the old APG adds that field questions like "How can I deal with that semi-auto on the other team when I'm shooting a pump?" Answer: "Team up".

I believe that the 'game change' occurs when the new technology is proliferated to the majority. I believe the following guns are responsible for changing recball / woodsball:

Popular sales of these markers drove down the prices of other markers with comparable capabilities and the end result being is that the majority of players ended up with the capability and thus tactics like "Team up" aren't needed as much or, at all. However, this shouldn't be confused with technical innovation. Companies like AGD, Dye, PE, etc induce a trickle down of technology that at first, impacts the professional / competitive circuits and then the recreational community.

2. On a vastly more hypothetical note: Anything that improves precision and accuracy. This is probably new paint, but it's probably also a new system to fire it. I know there are a few impractical first takes on this. I don't know if anything does, or even can ever work

This has arguabley already occurred. First strike rounds have been around for a few years now and finally beginning to make a dent in the market. Dye and Spyder are now both offering markers that will switch between the FSR and regular paint. Both are relatively new, so I haven't heard how well they are being received, but time will tell.

At some point I may actually see these things, but for now the price per shot is so high that their effectiveness is almost unimportant. Something to watch though...

So you're only accepting systems that you think are worrthy? You said "Anything that improves precision and accuracy." These would be anything and while the price is high now, if they become more mainstream, I can see pricing coming down to more reasonable levels. Will we ever see FSR's at the same price level as normal paint? Doubtful, but just because you don't like the cost of them, you can't dismiss their use as having a potential impact on paintball. As it is, they have already impacted paintball as at least two companies have specifically made markers to suppor their use. This is a HUGE step to general acceptance. If you're looking for some magical system that is going to take round gel filled paintballs and turn them into sniper rounds, it simply isnt possible. It has been proven time and time again. I would argue, that we have essentially peaked as far as the accuracy with standard paint is concerned.

Line SI Bushmaster - took 007 mods out of the garage and put it into a slick package with a quick change CO2.

CCI Phantom - Ditto but an under cocker

Tippmann 68 Special - First dependable semiauto marker

AGD 68 Automag - DUH, do I REALLY need to explain this one on THIS forum....

WGP Autococker - Proved that advanced plumbing, could produce a dependable winning package. And due to it's hulking weight and ugliness brought about the aftermarket machine parts and customization market.

I played my first games renting in 93. Everything in my area was pump. Until a vm68 showed up at the field. Man playing against that changed our tactics. We all slowly got prolites to compete with the VM. A spyder or 2 showed up. But the rugged use didn't compare to the prolite. Then some of us went to mags. And others to cockers by the end of 94. There really wasn't another change here until the angel. The shocker may have existed. But it was big. Ugly. And not real reliable. The angel showed what potential electro had in the industry. The rt came out and agd showed a mech could keep up with the angel. But our agitator and shreader hoppers couldn't begin to keep up with the reactive trigger of the rt. So in my area the biggest gun game changesrs were....

Vm68 changed people from pump to semi. And a more shoot first and aim second play.

Prolite and spyders. Gave a mid priced long lasting semi auto. Spyders could be upgraded with all kinds of springs and valves to up the rof. Lighten trigger pull. And minimalize shoot down. The prolite was just rugged.

Automag/cocker. Bumped up ROF and style of play to more of what we call speedball. Cockers could be tuned even more if the player took the time. Or turned in to an expensive pile of junk. Mags were fast and reliable and last forever.
Angels just flat showed what electronics could do for the gun.

Intimidators and impulses. These I am adding because they put the idea of electronics that the angel showed to be out there in the hands of every 12 year old at my field by 2000-2001. And let them piss away multiple cases of paint in a day I might add.

while the price is high now, if they become more mainstream, I can see pricing coming down to more reasonable levels.

I think if the price reaches more reasonable levels then first strike could change the game (provided it works robustly enough) Ive read annecdotes that its more accurate, but also fussier. i wouldn't ever expect that the price woul hit standard paintball costs, but it's going to have to come down a lot to become more popular. Is the potential there? I've never shot them so all I can do is acknowledge that the possibility exists that they could

you can't dismiss their use as having a potential impact on paintball.

no, i dont dismiss that they could have potential impact. if their function leads to acceptance which leads to economies of scale which overcomes the currently impractical cost, then they could potentially have an impact. I do not feel that they have had an impact, and two markers do not strike me as significant to the game as a whole.

If you're looking for some magical system that is going to take round gel filled paintballs and turn them into sniper rounds, it simply isnt possible.

If you can't measure it, it doesn't exist

When I see, "changed the game", I literally interpret it as that. What guns caused enough stir to cause a change to the game? Not "what guns do you ascribe some emotional/sentimental value to?" which is quite frankly a boring, vapid question.

Well, what comprises a game? The rules. The rules are the formation of the game. If you change the rules, you change the game.

For instance, in many places the SMG-60 got banned. I.e. it forced a modification to rules.

The Shocker turbo also forced the rules to start thinking about electro trigger criteria.

Reactive triggers -- Automag RT , etc. -- got banned.

The first semi-auto basically implicitly created the distinction between semi and pump-only style games.

First auto-trigger based gun probably prompted the first ban on auto-trigger per strict stock class rules.

And along those lines, I don't know what was the first gun to use CA, but it was immediately banned.

I fail to see how the Tippmann 98 actually "changed the game". Did the game change to accommodate the 98? Or did it change to exclude the 98? Or perhaps neither? I mean, I personally have a strong emotional reaction to the Tippmann 98, but that is completely independent of any changes to the game it had.

I also do not see “a gun” changing the game format from woods to speedball. People went from woods to speedball because they wanted to, not because their talking gun made them do it.

When I see, "changed the game", I literally interpret it as that. What guns caused enough stir to cause a change to the game? Not "what guns do you ascribe some emotional/sentimental value to?" which is quite frankly a boring, vapid question.

Well, what comprises a game? The rules. The rules are the formation of the game. If you change the rules, you change the game.

For instance, in many places the SMG-60 got banned. I.e. it forced a modification to rules.

The Shocker turbo also forced the rules to start thinking about electro trigger criteria.

Reactive triggers -- Automag RT , etc. -- got banned.

The first semi-auto basically implicitly created the distinction between semi and pump-only style games.

First auto-trigger based gun probably prompted the first ban on auto-trigger per strict stock class rules.

And along those lines, I don't know what was the first gun to use CA, but it was immediately banned.

I fail to see how the Tippmann 98 actually "changed the game". Did the game change to accommodate the 98? Or did it change to exclude the 98? Or perhaps neither? I mean, I personally have a strong emotional reaction to the Tippmann 98, but that is completely independent of any changes to the game it had.

I also do not see “a gun” changing the game format from woods to speedball. People went from woods to speedball because they wanted to, not because their talking gun made them do it.

How long have you played? I named the guns I named because in my area them were the guns that literally changed how the game was played. The vm68 changed it from pump to semi. The prolite and spyder literally made it a semi auto playing area. The mag and the cocker changed the tactics to more fast shooting and less hide and seek. Shocker/angel showed what electronic gun potential there was to create what kind of game play there is today. And yes. A gun can encourage a speedball style play vs hide and seek. How many people play speedball with a slow ROF gun?

How long have you played? I named the guns I named because in my area them were the guns that literally changed how the game was played. The vm68 changed it from pump to semi. The prolite and spyder literally made it a semi auto playing area. The mag and the cocker changed the tactics to more fast shooting and less hide and seek. Shocker/angel showed what electronic gun potential there was to create what kind of game play there is today.

That's fine if you had to adjust your style of play to accommodate.

I'm saying that in order to change the game, you have to actually change the game.

Originally Posted by blackdeath1k

And yes. A gun can encourage a speedball style play vs hide and seek. How many people play speedball with a slow ROF gun?

Sorry, I don't own a talking gun, so I receive no encouragement from it. That would really be nice to have a gun that dished out encouragement though.

I don't know how many people play speedball with a slow ROF gun. But I'm pretty sure the answer is at least 1, because I play speedball with a slow ROF gun.

Let me ask the same question of you: how many people play speedball with a slow ROF gun?

So is this gonna be like your agd posts that you refuse to name or show the focal point of your argument? There you talk about your gun but refuse to post pix. Here your telling me how what I lived through and observed had nothing to do with the guns. But you don't name how long you have been playing. And what you have seen and played with first hand. Magazines in the early 90s talked a lot about how to play against people with semi auto guns. It isn't my imagination. And to say that an easy to obtain high ROF gun doesn't encourage you to shoot more is like the guy that tells me that my 200+ HP sport bike is no more dangerous to a new rider than a sportster.

To answer your question though. Any speedball games I've ever played with people with slow guns ended with them not wanting to play unless they could borrow a faster gun. Them buying a faster gun. Or them not wanting to play speedball at all. This excludes experienced players that do it for there own fun in handycapping themselves.

So is this gonna be like your agd posts that you refuse to name or show the focal point of your argument? There you talk about your gun but refuse to post pix.

I thought the focal point was pretty clear. In order to change the game, you have to actually change the game.

I was pretty clear in the other thread as well, but people have language impediments.

Originally Posted by blackdeath1k

Here your telling me how what I lived through and observed had nothing to do with the guns. But you don't name how long you have been playing. And what you have seen and played with first hand. Magazines in the early 90s talked a lot about how to play against people with semi auto guns. It isn't my imagination. And to say that an easy to obtain high ROF gun doesn't encourage you to shoot more is like the guy that tells me that my 200+ HP sport bike is no more dangerous to a new rider than a sportster.

Because "how long I've been playing" is irrelevant. Either what I say makes sense on its own, or it doesn't. It's quite frankly weird to be "pulling creds".

In all seriousness, here's the other side: I've seen other people blame speedball for the paintball arms race, not the other way around.

How do you reconcile the two viewpoints?

Originally Posted by blackdeath1k

To answer your question though. Any speedball games I've ever played with people with slow guns ended with them not wanting to play unless they could borrow a faster gun. Them buying a faster gun. Or them not wanting to play speedball at all. This excludes experienced players that do it for there own fun in handycapping themselves.

Your entertaining anecdotes do bring up an interesting point though. Paintball does seem to differ from locality to locality, possibly field to field, so some people's history and perceptions may differ. I have no problem believing that EVERY speedball game you've ever played with anyone with a slow gun was completely un-fun for them and wound up leaving a foul taste in their mouth. I believe you completely.

Palmer pneumatics: took a decent pump and made it the most customizable tournament gun for nearly 10 years. Bud didn't make them, but he certainly tried to put his name on them.

WDP Angel: put a gun in the hands of a walkon that could fire as fast as a regular tournament player.

68 Automag: the fastest gun, and showed that you can think outside the box.

Airstarr Nova: the grand daddy of the spool valve/gun. you can't have any spool valve if this never worked.

SP Shocker Turbo: the cheater that became the standard.

ICD B2K: showed that the stack tubed electro-pneumatic gun can work

CCM pumps: you can make something that was dead, make it again, sell if for a higher price and still get people to think they are the greater than what has come before, even though they are the same guns.

I'm going to go slightly off target here , but when I first started playing most players were using 12 grams and rock and cock pgp's . The two things that changed the game to me the most were the advent of "constant air' ie larger capacity CO2 bottles and then the Compressed air bottles of today and the advent of "gravity feed" which allowed the use of hoppers .