I give up on the discussion because we are going around in circles due to fundamental differences and like I said before I’m totally indifferent if someone has a different opinion, just accept people have a different opinion to yours as well…

Dismissing all other criticisms and reasoning as being from “casual non-viewers” when you haven’t even attended an indie show is insane. Pointing out that you care enough about something to write about it at length and detail while ignoring the fact that everyone else is doing the exact same thing... I don't have words..

The idea that technical work can’t be disputed is also stunningly flawed, for any medium.

I give up on the discussion because we are going around in circles due to fundamental differences and like I said before I’m totally indifferent if someone has a different opinion, just accept people have a different opinion to yours as well…

Not about the opinion

If we got fundamental differences we should realize that and not make dumb comments like Omega matches are all flying knees or whatever you said. Certain criticisms go away when you watch, and know, the show.

Dismissing all other criticisms and reasoning as being from “casual non-viewers” when you haven’t even attended an indie show is insane.

ya sorry for living in shit holes my whole life. having money and going to a show near you doesn't mean anything. it's not like I'm going after you or the people who go to these shows.

I'm talking about the casual OR non viewers who either stopped watching for a long time, or stopped watching entirely. Your opinion on a show is worthless if you don't watch the shows. Your opinion is worthless if your judging a product for not being like a product you watched when you were a kid. Coming here and moaning about all the past stars you got to watch as a kid, that it sucks now, like fuck off. Fuck you. I didn't watch weekly from 02-12 to deal with that type of shit.

I'm sure Texas can relate to dealing with that shit in sports. It's the same thing.

Pointing out that you care enough about something to write about it at length and detail while ignoring the fact that everyone else is doing the exact same thing... I don't have words..

ok but you clearly aren't thinking so

my point was that wrestling/movies aren't just something I consume, it's a large part of my life and is going to - for better or worse - be a focus of my future. surely you can understand why the "it's just my opinion bro" line of thinking can be troublesome, if that's your defense then you haven't really thought about anything and are only interested in your own view instead of genuine discourse that can provide context/perspective to those opinions.

The idea that technical work can’t be disputed is also stunningly flawed, for any medium.

I mean yeah, but when the work is at such a high level

Like, nobody said shit about the cinematography/score in Neon Demon, that was one of the saving graces for the non-fans. It can't be disputed. It's right there in front of your eyes and it obviously, undeniably takes an unbelievable amount of skill and time to create the images that they did.

Zack Sabre Jr? You can't dispute what he does.

Etc. In that sense, no, technicality and skill can't be disputed. When it's at that point, you better whip out your Red Dragon camera and throw your boots on.

If we got fundamental differences we should realize that and not make dumb comments like Omega matches are all flying knees or whatever you said. Certain criticisms go away when you watch, and know, the show.

I said I was praising Omega years before you… Mentioned “100 knees to the face aerial matches aren’t for everyone” just like you mentioned slow, boring matches with 5 minute chinlocks… Quit dodging and generalizing people's viewpoints.

"Certain criticisms go away when you watch, and know, the show." - Don't apply to mine then... Again quit dodging and generalizing.

ya sorry for living in shit holes my whole life. having money and going to a show near you doesn't mean anything. it's not like I'm going after you or the people who go to these shows.

I'm talking about the casual OR non viewers who either stopped watching for a long time, or stopped watching entirely. Your opinion on a show is worthless if you don't watch the shows. Your opinion is worthless if your judging a product for not being like a product you watched when you were a kid. Coming here and moaning about all the past stars you got to watch as a kid, that it sucks now, like fuck off. Fuck you. I didn't watch weekly from 02-12 to deal with that type of shit.

I'm sure Texas can relate to dealing with that shit in sports. It's the same thing.

Absolutely, the fact that I go to indie shows doesn’t make my opinion superior to anyone elses, just like yours...

Ok so you aren’t aiming all this casual, non-viewer talk at me obviously. So what’s the point to all these paragraphs on it? Doesn’t apply to any of my criticisms or anyone else on this thread… You just don’t like it when people don’t bow down to what you like so you generalize all criticism and critics as a defense.

You like film analogies. I have a degree in Film Studies, awards in screenwriting and have been making a living in the industry for several years now. That doesn’t make my opinion on film superior to everyone elses. Some new kid can watch Taxi Driver for the first time and hate it, doesn’t mean he’s not entitled to his reasoned opinion. It just simply means I should have the experience and knowledge to articulate and express my viewpoint strongly within our discourse. He’s still entitled to his opinion and I have the experience to take it or leave it.

my point was that wrestling/movies aren't just something I consume, it's a large part of my life and is going to - for better or worse - be a focus of my future. surely you can understand why the "it's just my opinion bro" line of thinking can be troublesome, if that's your defense then you haven't really thought about anything and are only interested in your own view instead of genuine discourse that can provide context/perspective to those opinions.

Again, it's a large part of everyones life on here, you aren't any more special. "It's just my opinion bro" applies to no one on here, it's just you generalizing all criticism and critics again.

Like, nobody said shit about the cinematography/score in Neon Demon, that was one of the saving graces for the non-fans. It can't be disputed. It's right there in front of your eyes and it obviously, undeniably takes an unbelievable amount of skill and time to create the images that they did.

Zack Sabre Jr? You can't dispute what he does.

Etc. In that sense, no, technicality and skill can't be disputed. .

Around in circles. Any skill can be disputed. Your very understanding of that skill is in itself a personal bias. To think someone can’t hold an opinion against cinematography in a film is so immature.

I said I was praising Omega years before you… Mentioned “100 knees to the face aerial matches aren’t for everyone”

It's the same thing? That's not what those matches are. That's not even what the finishes are. I (along with a few others) got a WWE guy into New Japan during G1 and that was his exact criticism. He doesn't think that way anymore..

Like, Austin and Bret is one of my favorite matches. There's a big difference between holds being used in context, and holds being apart of the formula that everybody has to abide to. The knees aren't Omega's formula, they're apart of a formula that's constantly changing. Just like AJ's moves. That's the problem with the holds. They're an easy way to train football players, muscle guys, etc how to go from spot to spot and transition. I can't buy the believability excuse because nothing is believable.

"Certain criticisms go away when you watch, and know, the show." - Don't apply to mine then... Again quit dodging and generalizing.

Well that sorta does apply to you. You've already admitted to the psychology and storytelling in these other markets being harder to pick up on and understand. It's like JR at the G1 special

"Jay Lethal keeps going for this springboard cutter early on, not sure if it's the best strategy at this point" - completely lost on the story of the match, it being HIS FINISHER, and the story with Omega going in. I think I had that match at 3.75 too lol

Ok so you aren’t aiming all this casual, non-viewer talk at me obviously. So what’s the point to all these paragraphs on it? Doesn’t apply to any of my criticisms or anyone else on this thread… You just don’t like it when people don’t bow down to what you like so you generalize all criticism and critics as a defense.

I've had no problem with you not bowing down to what I love. I got so happy when I found out you were going to the show with that Ospreay 4 way, knowing you weren't where I'm at with my fandom. Only wish that those guys hadn't killed each other the month before and you got to see some better matches.

It only becomes a problem when I feel you guys are unfairly attacking what I like, from a place of ignorance, as justification for why the WWE does what they do. If WWE matches weren't boring, wouldn't the crowd have a lot higher standards for what they chant "this is awesome" at? It happens in every match where there's a multi person sequence, or quick spots/near falls in succession. They'd lose their minds if they saw half the shit out there.

Some new kid can watch Taxi Driver for the first time and hate it, doesn’t mean he’s not entitled to his reasoned opinion. It just simply means I should have the experience and knowledge to articulate and express my viewpoint strongly within our discourse. He’s still entitled to his opinion and I have the experience to take it or leave it.

That's the problem - unless you can back it up, that's a shitty ass opinion. I was that very kid at one point, don't bullshit me. It comes from a place of pompus ignorance. Contrarian, I'm young and smart bullshit.

Jaws is a great example, as well as Citizen Kane. I don't like it. Is it great? Sure! I can't argue it. You have your right to your opinion, I have my right to break that shit down and explain to you why it's bad.

Around in circles. Any skill can be disputed. Your very understanding of that skill is in itself a personal bias. To think someone can’t hold an opinion against cinematography in a film is so immature.

So yeh, we should just accept we have fundamental differences...

On a base level, you're right. Not when it comes to what we're talking about in these examples.

Last edited by Se7en on Thu Oct 19, 2017 5:02 pm, edited 1 time in total.

If the cinematography in Neon Demon could be criticized, it would have been. If ZSJ wasn't a great technical wrestler, you'd have all these people saying otherwise.

YOU CAN'T

IT'S NOT TRUE

Transcends opinion. You better be a great DOP or fuckin Daniel Bryan/Kurt Angle if you're gonna do that shit. But no, even they acknowledge that he's probably better than them. Sky is blue, water's wet.

We just aren't seeing eye to eye and will keep going around in circles. This Forum is dead now but we will cross paths again on this in the new Forum/Thread

Long story short. I feel like u goad me into being an asshole

1.) No problem with any opinion or stylistic/philosophy differences

2.) If you prefer other styles, don't knock the other style with bullshit

3.) All arguments are not created equal.

4.) We need to have a standard where someone's experience/viewing history/knowledge of a medium is kept in mind, in context. The high school film student who thinks 2001 is boring (my best friend) doesn't get to be taken seriously. Anybody who'd have the gall to say The Neon Demon isn't great looking (nobody) doesn't get to be taken seriously. The guy (my homie now) who says Omega matches all finish the same doesn't get to be taken seriously. So on and so forth.