I was at this casino minding my own business, and this guy came up to me and said, "You're gonna have to move, you're blocking a fire exit." As though if there was a fire, I wasn't gonna run. If you're flammible and have legs, you are never blocking a fire exit. - Mitch Hedberg

Speaking of injuries, it's too bad that Kuerten had to get banged up or he may have one a few more slams, especially in gay Paris.

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I was at this casino minding my own business, and this guy came up to me and said, "You're gonna have to move, you're blocking a fire exit." As though if there was a fire, I wasn't gonna run. If you're flammible and have legs, you are never blocking a fire exit. - Mitch Hedberg

FO I usually find pretty interesting becuz it really does come down to JUST tennis. When there's faster surfaces like the hard courts of US OPEN and the slick grass of Wimbledon -- the big hitters like (Venus, Serena, Davenport, Sharapova, Kuzy) are all much more likely to dominate play constantly. When you get to Roland Garross -- it becomes more interesting becuz there really isnt a true favorite. I dunno if its becuz I hardly ever get to play on it that's influencing this but FO (clay courts) are really becoming intersting to me.

Who was comparing? I never said anything about Venus' career titles on clay. But here are some statistics.

You were pointing out Henin won only four tournaments on clay, as to to me inflating her clay court ability. I was just pointing out she has only been near the top of the game half as long as Venus Williams. The key is she has won those four all in the last three years, more than anybody in that span.

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On the clay court career stats (having played at least 25 tournaments), here's where they are:

So, overall, they are separated by .005 in their careers on clay court. I imagine if Venus actually played more warmups for the French, it'd be about the same. And to think that it's her "weakest" surface and Justine's "strongest."

Considering Henin spent 3 clay courtseasons out of the top 10, and Venus only 1 out of 8, Henin narrowly having the better winning pct. in spite of that only speaks more in favor of her superiority on clay to me.

What does it being Venus's weakest surface or Henin's best have to do with anything? I was not saying Henin in career greatness is a greater general player than Venus at this point. I was comparing their chances at the French.

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That pretty much covers both of their peaks (although if you want to get down to it, Justine's peak was picking up Serena's scraps but that's another story). Clijsters doesn't even warrant discussion.

And maybe I need to make this clearer: no one is saying Venus will win the French. No one is saying Justine is not an excellent clay court player. My point is that a) Venus cannot be ruled out in spite of what everyone believes about her clay court record and b) Justine is not the be-all, end-all of clay court tennis.

Justine's career was picking up Serena's scraps? I am sorry but her defeat of Serena on her way to winning the French Open and her courageous perforance in the U.S open semis against Capriati warrants greater recognition than that and gets it from those of importance in the game. Anyway winning every slam when Serena is injured or not in top form isnt so easy to do, Venus certainly demonstrates this doesnt she.

Clijsters doesnt even warrant discussion? So let me see, somebody who has made two French Open finals in his career, who won their only head to head meeting on clay when the older player was at her peak and she was not; does not even warrant discussion and somebody over two years older with only one French Open final appearance does, alas while it is now apparent the older player is not near top form, and since the younger player has not returned it is quite conceivable that she might or might not be. So the latter player warrants the greater consideration of being a threat at the French? I apologize but I dont understand this reasoning at all, atleast until we know Clijsters too wont return at top form, like Venus. You seem to acknowledge in most would disagree with you on Venus's chances at the French this year. Let me join that list and leave it at that.

Who was comparing? I never said anything about Venus' career titles on clay. But here are some statistics.

You were pointing out Henin won only four tournaments on clay, as to to me inflating her clay court ability.

But I never said anything about Venus, something you are obviously not understanding. Regardless of other players, someone winning four clay court titles doesn't necessarily make them the best (or biggest threat) on clay.

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Considering Henin spent 3 clay courtseasons out of the top 10, and Venus only 1 out of 8, Henin narrowly having the better winning pct. in spite of that only speaks more in favor of her superiority on clay to me.

Did I ever say Venus was better on clay? Once again, you're missing the point. Let me say it again.

No one is saying Justine is not an excellent clay court player. My point is that a) Venus cannot be ruled out in spite of what everyone believes about her clay court record and b) Justine is not the be-all, end-all of clay court tennis.

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Justine's career was picking up Serena's scraps? I am sorry but her defeat of Serena on her way to winning the French Open

LOL! I want you to honestly tell me Justine would have won the Australian or the U.S. Open had Serena been playing. She has defeated Serena once out of three times in grand slams. Let's not forget the thrashing Serena gave her a couple weeks later at Wimbledon. Justine has three grand slams, and two of them were won with Serena gone. I call that picking up Serena's scraps. You can justify it any way you see fit.

kitten25

LOL! I want you to honestly tell me Justine would have won the Australian or the U.S. Open had Serena been playing.

I certainly dont know that she would have. However Serena has not won the Australian and U.S open every year she has played. As much as you might pretend to you dont really know what would have happened.As for the U.S open Henin's semi with Capriati was an all-time classic, and that is what most people will remember, not that Serena withdrew, that is what you may remember but that is your problem I suppose.

LOL! I want you to honestly tell me Justine would have won the Australian or the U.S. Open had Serena been playing.

I certainly dont know that she would have. However Serena has not won the Australian and U.S open every year she has played. As much as you might pretend to you dont really know what would have taken place had Serena played. As for the U.S open Henin's semi with Capriati was an all-time classic, and that is what most people will remember, not that Serena withdrew, that is what you may remember but it is your loss.

LOL! I want you to honestly tell me Justine would have won the Australian or the U.S. Open had Serena been playing.

I certainly dont know that she would have. However Serena has not won the Australian and U.S open every year she has played. As much as you might pretend to you dont really know what would have taken place had Serena played.

For what it's worth, this is the "Would Steffi Graf have won all those titles if Monica Seles had not been stabbed" debate redux. Pretty tough to know the answer to either question. Had Steffi been playing Monica all along, perhaps she would have developed a better counterattack to Monica's game. Ditto for Justine and Serena. In my personal experience, the more often you play a particular player, the more you learn what works against her.

I totally agree. If we are going to say Henin simply picked up Serena's scraps, than we should be saying Steffi Graf picked up all of Monica Seles's scraps after she left. However when one dares to say this in the past they somehow seem ridiculous!? However just as Justine only beat the pre-injured Serena on clay, Steffi only beat the pre-injured Monica on grass in a "big match". Monica was actually stabbed though, not injured,it is Serena's problem if she develops an injury, it is not a criminal disturbance of a course of events.

I certainly dont know that she would have. However Serena has not won the Australian and U.S open every year she has played. As much as you might pretend to you dont really know what would have taken place had Serena played. As for the U.S open Henin's semi with Capriati was an all-time classic, and that is what most people will remember, not that Serena withdrew, that is what you may remember but it is your loss.

LOL, as if public perception is even the issue here. Considering that either Venus or Serena had won the U.S. Open in 1999, 2000, 2001, and 2002, I think it's a fair assumption that Justine's chances would have been much slimmer in 2003. You can drool over her semi against Capriati until you're blue in the face -- she's still having the leftovers.

Quote from: "kittens25"

I totally agree. If we are going to say Henin simply picked up Serena's scraps, than we should be saying Steffi Graf picked up all of Monica Seles's scraps after she left.

This is not Monica and Steffi, which is a totally different case. But I don't think there's any denying that Steffi capitalized on Monica's hiatus. However, it doesn't mean she wouldn't have won plenty of grand slams even with Monica there. That is not the case with Justine and Serena -- at least not to this point. If Justine comes back and wins anything other than the French, I'd be surprised.