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If that was your point then yes I agree. It seemed like you were trying to make it sound that to have a good handling vehicle it had to be a bear to drive around town.

np. interweb makes it hard to get a point across sometimes

Quote:

Originally Posted by Daishi00

You still need droop regardless if you're running higher spring rates and higher rated dampers. This idea that spring rate removes the need for travel makes no sense. You want the tire to maintain contact with the road as much as possible and if you don't have travel you're going to start lifting wheels which is going to lower overall grip levels.

As long as the motion ratio of the damper is suited to the droop travel and stops the damper from bottoming out then comparing droop travel of one suspension setup to that of another is irrelevant - and even more so for those cars wanting improved track performance.

You can have oodles of droop travel and still ride the bumpstops (ie. like stock STi strut/spring combo) and wreak havok on suspension performance, or you can have less droop travel, with suitable dampers and motion ratio to suit the application that rarely ride the bumpstops at all (plus the many points in between).

I'm just saying, ppl need to educate themselves a little more before throwing around the droop travel argument as the be all and end all of good suspension design.

I think you're missing the point of the thread. Cheap coilovers not only don't have enough droop, they don't have enough bump and they sure as hell aren't a suitable damper which they probably didn't even check motion ratio before developing.

Nobody is saying that droop travel is the end all be all, we're saying it's a component that needs to be taken into account and it IS an important factor.

As long as the motion ratio of the damper is suited to the droop travel and stops the damper from bottoming out then comparing droop travel of one suspension setup to that of another is irrelevant - and even more so for those cars wanting improved track performance.

You can have oodles of droop travel and still ride the bumpstops (ie. like stock STi strut/spring combo) and wreak havok on suspension performance, or you can have less droop travel, with suitable dampers and motion ratio to suit the application that rarely ride the bumpstops at all (plus the many points in between).

I'm just saying, ppl need to educate themselves a little more before throwing around the droop travel argument as the be all and end all of good suspension design.

Leslie

I think you are confusing some terms here. Motion ratio is the relationship between damper travel and wheel travel, not something attributed to a damper itself. It seems like you also have droop and bump travel backwards. Both are important, however. And the overall travel of the damper is what's important here, it's a piece of cake to change the bump stops but you can't make up for a lack of travel in the damper's design.

Alrighty, so this thread has made me interested enough to order some new KWs for my wagon. However, I have some questions about the differences of the Club Sport vs V3. Do any of the things we talked about here apply to those two models and is one better than the other since there is a massive price difference?

I would think that too much droop would lead to a more sloppy suspension feel.

Also, I would also think how fast the suspension "droops" is more important than the maximum amount of droop when it is raised up.

I've seen different cars with coilovers get jacked up, and some would droop at a faster rate than others. From how I see it, it makes sense that the faster it droops, the more useful it is to keep the tire on the road as you pass by a bump for a split second.

This is how I see it, but feel free to englighten me; but I think there are a lot of factors being left out here in the discussion

I would think that too much droop would lead to a more sloppy suspension feel.

Nope, not at all. Beyond a certain amount of total travel (often in the 30+ inch range for things shaped vaguely like out cars), it gets a little hard to control the movement, but the ~6" of total travel on a good Subie suspension won't cause any problems.

Quote:

Also, I would also think how fast the suspension "droops" is more important than the maximum amount of droop when it is raised up.

I've seen different cars with coilovers get jacked up, and some would droop at a faster rate than others. From how I see it, it makes sense that the faster it droops, the more useful it is to keep the tire on the road as you pass by a bump for a split second.

You're now talking about damping, not travel. Yes, getting the bound and rebound travel is also an important part of good suspension. However, faster is not always better. Faster means the damper is exerting less control over the spring. At a certain point, that will mean the spring is not sufficiently controlled. The fastest setup would have no damper at all and it's obvious how bad that would be.

The KW V3's should be more than enough, the clubsports are geared towards more track use.

As Daishi said, there are also custom KW style coilovers and other options when you get into that price range.

Sounds like a plan. V3 it is.

I hit the tracks quite often, but at over $3g, I'd rather buy other things...

As I understand, the V3 doesn't come with top mounts, so you have to use your original mounts. Will other mounts like CUSCO fit? I ask since I have those already.

I also noticed that the RCE units have helper springs from their web pics and different colored spring collars. So do the V3 not have helper springs and use a progressive spring instead? Are the collars different materials?

yes, the v3s use a progressive rear. Places like robispec and rce use different spring rates and valving on them, which makes a big performance improvement

This. I would take T2's over V3's in a heartbeat. The difference in cost is minimal considering you get linear springs, better spring rates mated to a different valve setup that gives you a smoother ride.

I love all the theory passed around in this thread. There is compromise in everything. I wouldn't put a set of coil overs on my car if I still lived in NJ, but where I live now in VA, its not that much of an issue. If I am traveling on a road where I need that much droop travel available I am going to do one of two things, 1. drive a lot slower for the bumpy conditions or 2. Take the wife's Forester.

It always comes down to budget and compromise. The manufacturers know that and make a product that they feel best meets the customer's needs. I would argue why would anyone buy a coil over that doesn't have separate height adjustment? Obviously, some manufactures don't feel this is an important issue at that price point. All mods to our cars are done based on several issues and it is a personal choice, some of us make better choices than others and 'your' choice may not be right for me.

Very informative conversation here. What would be a good upgrade to my 09 wrx suspension that would reduce body roll and wheel gap but at the same time retaining the ability of the shocks/springs to do their job properly?

I would argue why would anyone buy a coil over that doesn't have separate height adjustment?

Because you don't need it. This is a method that the budget manufacturers use so that they can use the same damper for multiple applications. Then they put a positive spin on it and convince people it is a necessary feature. Look at pretty much any coilovers in the $1500+ range and they don't have dual height adjustability.

Because you don't need it. This is a method that the budget manufacturers use so that they can use the same damper for multiple applications. Then they put a positive spin on it and convince people it is a necessary feature. Look at pretty much any coilovers in the $1500+ range and they don't have dual height adjustability.

If you're driving on the street, there's no reason to corner balance your car. it's just not necessary or beneficial. If you're driving your daily on the track, you STILL don't need to because all the crap you're doing to make it a daily is hurting your on track performance way worse than not being corner balanced. If you're making a dedicated race car which will really benefit from corner weighting, then you're going to need something better than the Cheap Crap Coilovers we're discussing here.

To go along with this though you still can corner weight your car with coilovers that don't offer "dual height adjustability" in the same fashion. You would use the lower spring perch to adjust the height to get the weights correct. A properly corner weighted subaru will never be the same heights on at all corners.

If you're driving on the street, there's no reason to corner balance your car. it's just not necessary or beneficial. If you're driving your daily on the track, you STILL don't need to because all the crap you're doing to make it a daily is hurting your on track performance way worse than not being corner balanced. If you're making a dedicated race car which will really benefit from corner weighting, then you're going to need something better than the Cheap Crap Coilovers we're discussing here.

My car is not a daily driver anymore. Not sure what 'crap I'm doing to it to make it a daily' you're talking about.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Turn in Concepts

To go along with this though you still can corner weight your car with coilovers that don't offer "dual height adjustability" in the same fashion. You would use the lower spring perch to adjust the height to get the weights correct. A properly corner weighted subaru will never be the same heights on at all corners.

Tony

Tony, it was a loaded question. My point was corner balancing with a dual adjustable setup is easier/more effective than changing preloads to accomplish the same thing.

^^^ This is for reals. A friend purchased a set of the LongAcre scales and for fun, we balanced my car, all 4 corners are at different heights. I can't say I know if there was a difference in the car since I'm not a super advanced driver, but the hub to fender distances were definitely not the same afterward. 1/4 to 1/2 inch differences if I remember right.