"It's like asking if Kill Bill Vol 2 is better than Kill Bill Vol 1 before the sequel is ever screened" Dre

Reservoir Dogs beat them both....

Which by the way might be the new nickname for the bench players.....

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My point was why do we argue over something that we can't compare until we see them actually play together???

This question was posted last year too and all of the comparisons went out the window when Billups was swapped for AI.. The way this team is constructed right now, we may see Rip or Tay for the first two games and then one of them is shipped off to who knows where for who knows whom....

Also, I have a lotta movies under my belt, but have never seen Reservoir Dogs in it's entirety, so I can't give that one any comparisons to the Bills....

"One thing to ponder though-If this years team loses more games but tries harder and shows more cohesion out on the floor than last years squad....which one is really the better team? Cloud

Hmmmm...I'm thinking it's one of those unanswerable questions cause the league's not static. It's like comparing grapefruits to green peppers. It's like the question if Ali fought Tyson who would'a won?

I think it's a situation where the comparable has to be made looking forward, which team will be better suited for the organization and this years competition relative to the trending game.

Last years team was dysfunctional for a whole range of disparate reasons but the essence of it all was it was the first real "transition year" departing from the prior core.

I don't think alot of folks ever got their arms around that as a basic fact. As reality.

So there's a lot of coulda, would'a, should'a talk based on if we had just "nibbled around the edges a bit more" things would have ended up different.

Different maybe, but not ending in a Championship or likely even an ECF showing. So for my dollar I'll take heart, hustle and soul and then live happily with the consequences..

You ran a post (essentially negative) making assertions (based on the negative) and expecting others opinions cause it ended in a question mark. And then you got some.

If facts (i.e. quantified statistics developed over the teams playing the entire 82 game schedule) get in the way of the of your baseless assertions, (not quantifiable by facts, just your subjective personal opinion) that's not my fault...

I'm astonished that a Darko/Amir/Afflalo fan would ever let such a statement escape his lips.

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Wilcox has had every opportunity to show how good he is. There is no comparison between how we treated Darko. Darko did not play his first two years, and then got to play just a tad over a 14 game stretch the next year. And thats it. Bye. Amir - forget it. Wilcox got way more a chance. And Afflalo? Gee, he did play last year. Lock down defense on the perimeter. 40% from 3 point land. Yeah, he should have played more. Sure you got a comparison there, for at least last year - but go back further and you will see Wilcox did not get the "Darko" treatment. Not at all.

Wilcox has had every opportunity to show how good he is. There is no comparison between how we treated Darko. Darko did not play his first two years, and then got to play just a tad over a 14 game stretch the next year. And thats it. Bye. Amir - forget it. Wilcox got way more a chance. And Afflalo? Gee, he did play last year. Lock down defense on the perimeter. 40% from 3 point land. Yeah, he should have played more. Sure you got a comparison there, for at least last year - but go back further and you will see Wilcox did not get the "Darko" treatment. Not at all.

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Wilcox was benched in Seattle to make room for Jeff Green. Not because Jeff Green was a better player, but because their philosophy was based around developing their rookies (read: rookie contracts). Remember, this is the same team that won 29 games with Ray Allen and Rashard Lewis.

It's merely subjective, of course, but I think that MOST of us can come to a consensus on that sort of thing. You can't really objectively measure a teams "toughness" either, but I think that MOST of us would agree the "Bad Boys" were tough.

No we are not going to win the championship this season, but the old lineup was not either. Isn't the definition of insanity to try the same thing again and again expecting a different result.

I love Billups, Sheed, and McDyess, but come on. CB has 2-3 years left....AM maybe 1-2 ......and with Sheed’s mentality he had ZERO left with us. Now with Ben Gordon we have 5-8, CV 5-8, Wilcox might return to his old ways and you got 5-7 good years left. If we find a way to land Bosh next season, we have a championship contending team for the next 5-6 years.

Yeah I would liked to have landed one of the big FA this year, but with the shrinking cap it was not going to happen.

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Thank you. Exactly what I have been thinking. Although those 2-3 and 1-2 years left are more likely to be injury riddled.

If that old team could not win in their prime then why anyone would think that they could win in the downswing of their careers is beyond me.

Perhaps the more appropriate question would be - do we have a better future now than we did last year.

You forgot Billups. Remember, losing Billups was suppose to result in a free agent signing this year. Ben Gordon turns out to be that guy. We lost Sheed, a guy who has serious length and toughness inside. Forget the stats sometimes cause they don't tell about defense. And you are not including two of our best defenders in the discussion, Afflalo and Amir Johnson, who were given away to make room for Wilcox. As far as insults - you must be new. Ask the mods to steer you to the policy here on respecting other posters.

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Why should I include Billups? He played two games last year and if you want him included, change the title to 'Is this team better than two years ago?' because he was not a factor for last year. I put in Iverson as he was a factor.

For this year, we already have Rip. Ben Gordon is not needed. We could have kept Sheed pretty cheaply. I'd rather have him than CV. I don't want a guy who just scores, but plays no D. Wilcox? His team was not playing him much. For reasons. Not that good. Keeping Afflalo, our best perimeter defender, and Amir, our most active defender, was a much better option vs. acquiring Wilcox.

Lets say Dumars managed to turn Sheed's expiring contract into a decent center, and we used the money saved from AI's expiring contract to get a first rate point guard. Then I would not be quite so upset. But instead, we went from having a very solid point guard position to weak at the position. We went from having a very solid defender at center in Sheed to having CV, a guy who is basically going to give us scoring numbers and let the other team get the points right back. CV is a power forward - and we already have JMAX there. We already had Amir there. We just signed Ben for more depth there. CV is just not needed - from a defensive point of view. And of course we added Wilcox, yet another power forward. None of it makes any sense.

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Can't help you if you would rather have an unhappy old guy, over a young player with zeal. SHEED DID NOT WANT TO BE HERE!!! He asked to be bought out. I love the guy, and he is always going to be a Piston to me. However, you are only thinking short term. You cannot wake up one morning and have a 35 year and older club. You have to move on.

Can't help you if you would rather have an unhappy old guy, over a young player with zeal. SHEED DID NOT WANT TO BE HERE!!! He asked to be bought out. I love the guy, and he is always going to be a Piston to me. However, you are only thinking short term. You cannot wake up one morning and have a 35 year and older club. You have to move on.

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No doubt, Sheed checked out of Detroit mentally long before he took the flight to Boston. He certainly had his moments as a Piston, but this team will be much better moving forward without all of the nonsense that goes with Sheed.

As tempting as it may be, the truth is Lee is right. This team right now is not better than the team from the beginning of the season last year. If you could put this years squad in training camp vs. last years squad in training camp, then I would assume last years squad would win. I honestly don't think Joe Dumars would disagree with that statement. If you put this team right now against last years team at the beginning of the season, I would expect last years team to win. With this point made, there is still a lot of arguments you can't make.

This point does cannot be used to say that Joe Dumars did not do his job. First off, we don't know what his job is, Karen Davison does. Karen Davison could have walked into Joe's office and said "You're fired if we go into luxury tax" or "I'm tired of this attitude. We need new blood" or "Don't make a championship run this year. Rebuild." which is a lot different than her walking in and saying "Put the best team on the floor." The moves that Joe made resulted in a team that is under the salary cap, and no where near the luxury tax. If you wanted detroit to keep all these superstars you're ignoring the idea that maybe Joe wasn't allowed to do that. (Maybe thats why he had to lose amir and afflalo for cheaper replacements in Wilcox and Washington)

Likewise, this point cannot be used to say Joe Dumars should have kept the players on last years team. Rasheed and McDyess did not want to say, they were free agents they did not have to. the amount of money it would cost us to keep them would negate their ability to mentor young players (because we wouldn't have money to hire any new players)

This point does not imply that the team as constructed at the beginning of last season would be better than this team this year or in following years. The team from last year would be old this year, and older next year. The team that we have now will be better next year, and perhaps contenders going forward.

Additionally, this point does not mean that the young players we have are bad, or our whole youth movement is misguided. We went out and bought the two best players on the free market this to contracts that are reasonable (and possible tradeable). Of course our rookies are not proven. They are rookies. Of course the players that we got for cheap the fillup the roster have questions. That's why they sit at the far end of the bench. Of course we didn't trade rip for (insert young franchise superstar big here). Other teams aren't stupid. The truth is, the players we have now are going to be in the league in 3 years, and we can't say that about the nucleus of the team from last year.

Finally, this point is not going to get me down on this next season. The future of pistons basketball starts this fall, and for better of for worse, I am going to watch it. I'm not just on the bandwagon I'm driving and trying to get as many fans of the old pistons to hop on board with me. If I sit and think of all the "what-ifs" I am only going to be disappointed. After the last time I sat and thought about what if (...grant hill re-signed), I am ready to put the past behind me.

As tempting as it may be, the truth is Lee is right. This team right now is not better than the team from the beginning of the season last year. If you could put this years squad in training camp vs. last years squad in training camp, then I would assume last years squad would win. I honestly don't think Joe Dumars would disagree with that statement. If you put this team right now against last years team at the beginning of the season, I would expect last years team to win. With this point made, there is still a lot of arguments you can't make.

(I swear I didn't mean for it to be this long.)

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Stop right there...that is all you had to say.

This years training camp vs last years training camp is a no brainer.

During last years training camp, we had a veteran team led by Billups and everyone other than Kwame & Bynum had played together in the prior season. The only x factor was the coach.

This season you have (in training camp and beyond) a new coach and 8 new players trying to establish chemistry with six players left over from the prior squad. IMO the only way you you can possibly speculate that the team would be better is if you added two superstar team players to the team as part of the those eight new players. We added some role players that may take a year or two to mesh and maybe get to ECF then if we are lucky....But lets give them the benefit of the doubt and just wait and see...we might be surprised.

No doubt, Sheed checked out of Detroit mentally long before he took the flight to Boston. He certainly had his moments as a Piston, but this team will be much better moving forward without all of the nonsense that goes with Sheed.

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Are we sure Sheed even "played" ball with the Pistons last season??

After playing footsie with KG in the 2008 playoffs and mailing it in according to some, most were ready to send both Flip and Sheed packing in late May 2008. So maybe a little of left when Flip left...in fact maybe when Big Ben left a couple years before that.

I think everyone agrees that this team isn't better than the last year's team.But Dumars needs to start somewhere again.Everyone understands that this team won't go to ECF or win the title.Please remember that the last season roster had to win the title but failed.We just can't compare the last seasons team and this years,becouse the goals and ambitions changed and are smaller.For me this season is a transitional we will know who sucks,whats wrong and then Dumars will make some changes.

Last year team was ready to win all kind of rival on one game, but were a older team without mental ready to beat rivals in long series,last year his legs don´t let the team keep pressure fresh,defend or run like other rivals. Last year team NEVER would be ready to maintain a playoff series against cavs,celtics,bulls or other teams physically better. This year team will improve month by month playing together,for 3 or 4 years,may be this year they lack quality to beat LA,Orlando,Boston or Cleveland in one game,but they can keep the intensity in his legs,are a depth roster. I prefer this year team,more fun,more run and surely more defense than people expects. We must be patience,is the begining of the rebuild,2010 or 2011 we will return to the fight. Last year roster has no hope to win despite forum people who thinks detroit would have win 50 games,new pistons are a young team.

I agree with lee that Stuckey were not ready to lead PG position,is very intriguing his performance next year. We lack a center,a future center and our salary cap is filled to make a strong hide in this position next year,it´s main problem we don´t know if our game director is ready or we must have hide another and the center.

Small forward position not concers for me,Tay,Daye and De juan Summer are present and future if coach team make his job better than last seassons and give minutes. I prefer 34 wins playing with young kids,coach experimenting than 38 wins, a ridiculous against orlando/boston/cleveland and one 17 first round draft. We need a early draft next year,a cheaper quality player in center position. Is funny see new blood, hope we deal rip in middle seasson, Tay is needed to start in SF position and he is our younger veteran.