Quote of the Day: Open Carry is Something Up With Which Texas Businesses Should Not Put

“We feel customers and employees will feel safer when people are not openly walking around with guns. It’s hard to tell who is a responsible gun owner and who is someone I should seek cover from.” – Anna Kehde, Texas chapter leader of Moms Demand Action, quoted in Gun-Friendly Texas Is Getting Even Friendlier [via nytimes.com]

I’m going to play devil’s advocate for a second because I do kind of see their problem. The thing about those holsters is that the guns can be pulled out of them very quickly. That being said… if someone is intent on causing carnage, they would just hide their gun under their shirt if open carry wasn’t legal. So, I guess that means open carry actually makes the situation less dangerous. At least then you know who has a gun. Knowledge is power.

Reggie, whether a gun appears in someone’s hand from an OC holster or from under a shirt, the reaction should be the same; draw your own gun, and wait to see what happens next. OC is a complete non-player, regardless of what the panty-wetters claim, they have zero experience, zero expertise, and zero input.

I got into a discussion about this one mom’s page, a few things they don’t understand. Texas’ law only allows those who already have a CCP to open carry. That suddenly criminals will start to open carry, which would attract attention to them. They have the misconception that open carry is more dangerous to the public than concealed carry. PeopleTonly open carry to terrorism the public. That an open carry person would easily be disarm and their gun be used against them and everyone around them. Open person said she would disarm someone open carrying just to prove a point.

Well, Gov, my first reaction would be to attempt to break her nose with my fist, then draw and hold her face down on the ground, at gunpoint, for police. It would be interesting to hear her declare how she was so terrified at seeing an OC gun that she just had to physically attack. Doesn’t sound real sensible, but it sure doesn’t sound like OC is really very scary, either. Perhaps, instead, she is just so carried away with her own importance that she feels a need to make everybody on the planet obey her every dictat!

As recently as last night, a Houston area man managed to snatch a sidearm from one of the two deputy constables who had him pinned on the ground, and discharge said sidearm. No one was injured, but it’s still an incredibly dangerous, felonious stunt to pull.

This real peach of a perp has, among his many prior convictions and run-ins with the law, a state jail felony conviction for a 2008 grab at a Houston police officer’s gun, too.

I’m not saying this representative of all encounters out there, but it’s something to keep in mind. There are felons out there willing to wrestle with police and attempt to murder them with their own service weapons. Yes, it’s uncommon, even rare, but then again, so are most defensive gun use scenarios we prepare for. This is something that should be considered in the same light. Take caution, use tactics, and employ equipment necessary to keep your firearm secure.

Yes, I understand your point, but police are often called on to take on suspects hand-to-hand, it’s part of their job. If theft of handguns from open carriers were even semi-common, it would have happened in other states that have open carry, at least enough to generate multiple news stories. That said, basic retention should be utilized, such as thumb-break, a strap, or press-lock type of holster.

I already conceded it was rare, then again, so is open carry itself if you actually count up who’s doing it, how often and where. Houston’s the largest city this has ever really been tried. We can’t expect everything to be exactly the same as elsewhere. It could be better, worse, or basically the same but with slightly different challenges.

As for only one cop having been killed……I read that, too. So what? Cop killed with his own weapon is not sole standard to judge this by. Others have been merely injured. Others have had their guns taken and the thief escapes, to commit what crimes with it, who knows? Ask the Boston Bombers who stole a cop’s gun and proceeded to commit crimes with it.

Just keep a broad perspective. Carve a moment out of your anti-terrorist spree shooting fantasies to consider that the comparably rare event of a gun grab is something to consider, as well. Don’t obssess over it. Don’t make it the centerpiece of your training. Just be aware of it. I’m surprised this point is even uncontroversial.

HP, I agree that open carriers should use a retention holster but I carry concealed with a thumb break and I wouldn’t consider it a retention holster. It’s good for making sure the gun doesn’t plop right out onto the ground, but I don’t think it would be much of a deterrent to a gun grab.

Gun grabs are very rare, but you never know what someone is capable of when they’ve been huffing jenkem. Better safe than sorry.

“Cop killed with his own weapon is not sole standard to judge this by. Others have been merely injured. Others have had their guns taken and the thief escapes, to commit what crimes with it, who knows?”

person said she would disarm someone open carrying just to prove a point.

I would pay to be a fly on the wall watching that. People could take bets on if she would get a broken nose, broken jaw, broken arm, or shot before the OCer figured out she was just an idiot getting ready to go to jail.

I’d settle for a Youtube video. I’m pretty sure my right hand would be headed to my gun pretty fast and my left fist would be headed for her face even faster. Somebody grabs your gun you have every reason to believe that their intent is to kill you with it.

Her entire argument is premised on her feelings about other people’s supposed feelings. There isn’t a fact or objective thought anywhere in there. It’s pure squishiness typical of a skull full of mush and nothing to take seriously.

“WE FEEL”, That is all you need to read. Well Mom’s, I feel you should go jump in a lake. Safe isn’t in the Constitution! P.S. Most criminals will conceal illegally until they “feel” they need to use their gun.

Because they have a vagina. Somehow having one and then pushing out a child makes them the know all prophets of modern times! My wife was determined to have our child without pain medication, she did it, she loves our daughter. She must love our daughter more than these nut jobs love their kids because she has a firearm and knows how to protect herself and her child from people intent to do them evil.

Thanks, Another Robert. I’ve been beating that drum (some might say dead horse) since the late 1990s. I liked concealed carry. It was my primary mode of bearing arms until we got concealed handgun licensing law in Ohio. Unfortunately, I don’t think POTG can afford the luxury these days of concealing too much. I open carry all of the time, everyday, everywhere now. In my opinion, it is a necessity to preserve the exercise of our right in the face of blatant anti-liberty propaganda.

Maybe that is the concern of gun-grabbers: only high-speed, low-drag operators operating operationally will be able to discern who the bad guys are. Oh, and tacticoooool mall-ninjas might be able to figure it out as well.

Day two: still no blood running in the streets, quick lets go find one of those demanding moms so we can fill the pages with brain dead ramblings about feelings so that people don’t move on to a different story. The NY times people remind me of Jehova’s whitnesses “I promise you this time for real, he’s coming back, no seriously stop leaving he’s coming back, you are all going to be sorry!”

And 100 days from now or a 1000 days from now, there won’t be any blood either. Actually, there will probably be less blood in the street.
Every time a gun law that gives citizens greater responsibility is passed, the same trope comes out; “blood in the street,” shootout’s at the mall, etc. The anti’s are always wrong.
Bless their hearts.

Good illustration was one of the first (maybe THE first) users of the carry law in TX, where a road rage incident had a twenty-something construction worker/bodybuilder pinning the vehicle of a forty-something businessman 100 lbs lighter and then attempting to beat him to death while they guy’s seatbelt was still fastened. Losing consciousness, the victim picked his gun up off the passenger seat and fired once. The attacker died. In that case it was pretty clear, someone was going to die or suffer critical injuries. The correct one did.

Notice that they object to OPENLY bearing arms. Their lies don’t work as well when most people can see how many are actually armed and behaving themselves. Concealed means concealed also means out of sight, out of mind. If some don’t open carry, the propaganda will win. That’s what they want.

It’s hard to tell who is a responsible gun owner and who is someone I should seek cover from. – Anna Kehde

Newsflash princess: everyone in your vicinity could be about to deliver life ending injuries with their fists, clubs, knives, and/or firearms whether or not any of those items were openly visible before the attack.

That’s a point that baffled me when concealed carry first arrived in Texas in 1996. Why is concealed carry considered virtuous, but open carry as villainous?

Reading up on it I learned that in the 19th century it was regarded oppositely. Concealed carry was considered premeditation of secret advantage and surprise attack. Open carriers were considered up front self-defenders.

Not to reignite the debate over tactical advantages of either approach, but I would expect that most 21st century people will come to regard open carriers as nonthreatening. Sure, some may still find it distasteful and jarring, for reminding them of the danger of the world and their own failure to prepare for it, but nonthreatening to them.

Don’t confuse the facts, they don’t think concealed carry is virtuous or less threatening so much as they hate any furthering of firearms rights. They stand behind concealed carry because they know there is an abundance of concealed carriers who hate open carry. They will use those people to get some “see I told you so” poll numbers showing that “reasonable” gun owners don’t like open carry to divide and conquer, and then before the body of open carry has even stopped twitching they will pull the knife out and come after concealed. Whittle the rights down to nothing one cut at a time.

What Tex300BLK said and the related drum that I have been beating… If we hide our guns, their propaganda is more likely to be believed by the general public. If many people bear arms openly, the propaganda that most people are against guns and that there will be blood in the streets can be seen for the sheer nonsense it is. If alot of gun owners bear their arms openly everyday, the gun grabber’s propaganda fails rather quickly.

Well welcome to the real world Hon, it’s full of uncertainities. Chances are with nearly a million CHL holders in the state you’ve rubbed elbows with someone armed whether you knew it or not. Surprisingly, the gun did not leap into action and mow down the populace.

So when you venture outside Whole Foods and IKEA, here’s a rough primer to help you make a decision about good guy/bad guy…It’s not a guarantee, but a starting point in the threat matrix…

Guy with the holstered sidearm, visible or reasonablely concealed, or rifle slung over should/across back is a lawful carrier. Guy with gun in hand, or in a low ready position targeting folks…He’s probably a bad guy…or Austin Police looking to kill a dog. Either way, go the other direction.

Well, it’s already been said, but it’s just so frustrating. If the Moms were really about “safety”, they would be all for OC; then they could see who the folks with the guns are, and could avoid them. But it’s not about “safety” at all; for the semi-rational ones, it’s about making guns _at best_ something sinister, to be kept hidden away from civilized society. And for the rank-and-file hysterical gun-o-phobes, it’s totally about emotions with no rationality component at all in the mix.

When the stuff hits the fan, I’m hanging with the people whom I feel safe – those packing. Amazing how logic goes out the door and a good number of people run their lives on hunches, how they feel, what sounds good, etc.

This real nails it. It is a very good bet that if some bad guy pulls a (probably concealed) pistol in her location she will join all the other helpless bystanders IMMEDIATELY BEHIND THE OPEN CARRIER who is shooting back.

“…It’s hard to tell who is a responsible gun owner and who is someone I should seek cover from”

That is her opinion.

It it still, however, wrong. If she is going to base who is good and who is bad on them carrying one item then that is her problem, not ours. And that one thing… she must think all the cops are bad guys too. Or that their polyester uniforms somehow negate the bad influence of the gun.

It seems she doesn’t rhink much of the customets and employees she runs into.

Why, any one of them could be, probably is, a bezerk bullet-hosing adtenaline junky who thinks the real world is Grand Theft Auto. Really, the only thing stopping the carnage is they cant find the death-engines hidden under their clothes.

Apologies for the typos. Frakking “smart” phone. When I have to work that hard to get the letters out at all, I make more mistakes and don’t see them. (This is “better” somehow. Remind me again how?)

Yes, I have indeed had a brain injury, so am not to be listened to, regardless of the quality of what I might have to say. Any typo invalidates the though, don’t ya know. (Seriously, it seems to work like allocating a more limited capacity – I can’t see typos when I’m thinking hard, nor can I have a though when it’s all used up with the formatting.)

Would that more people put their effort into thinking about what they are saying, vs. how good they look parroting some sick burn they picked up from red-twit-book-tube (which absolves them of the need to have the thought in the first place.)

Ah, well. I’m still smarter than most of these idiots, and I’m literally missing part of my brain.

“The bad guy is the one pointing the gun at your face, The good guy is the one who just shot the bad guy.”

This^^^^

Our correspondent’s initial statement is incomplete. What she means is:

“It’s hard to tell outside of what they actually do who is a responsible gun owner and who is someone I should seek cover from.”

More completely this: “It’s hard to tell outside what they actually do and on any basis I am willing to consider who is someone I should seek cover from.”

Based on behavior, the OFWG open carrying may be a Good Guy (and possibly even a Methodist. Eeeeeeew, I know.) The green, omni-sexual, pan humanist may be a Bad Guy. Her problem is, deciding based on behavior she might have to decide that the wrong people are good guys or bad guys.

People like Our Humble Correspondent don’t want to “decide” based on behavior because that makes everyone a “responsible gun owner”; individually responsible for what they do with any gun they own. Her problem is she thinks nobody is, or can be “responsible” meaning prudent &judicious, so nobody should have a gun.

Emotional irrational rants from the likes of Moms Demand Action leader Anna Kehde is exactly why I’ll defend the Texas open carry law even though my personal opinion is that open carry is tactically unsound and unwise in most settings and circumstances.

But putting the drivel from Kehde aside, most businesses that have opted to prohibit open carry on their property will keep the 30.07 signs posted since the Open Carry Obsessed account for an insignificantly small percentage of the Texas population.

I would say it’s easy to tell who a responsible gun owner is. I’m not worried about someone carrying a holstered gun. I’m worried about someone waving the gun around shooting at people. I would say the indicators of which ones are a danger are pretty clear.

I would say it’s easy to tell who a responsible gun owner is. I’m not worried about someone carrying a holstered gun. I’m worried about someone waving the gun around shooting at people. I would say the indicators of who is a danger are pretty clear. Of course if this isn’t common sense then you have other problems.

“We feel customers and employees will feel safer when people are not openly walking around with guns. It’s hard to tell who is a responsible gun owner and who is someone I should seek cover from.”
Soooo….if the guy who is someone you should seek cover from is carrying concealed, then that is just groovy?

I personally don’t like, nor think people should openly carry (the legality is a totally different matter though. It should be legal).

But the problem I have with that quote is “we feel that…” how the hell would they know? They didn’t conduct a study. They didn’t interview people (at least not anyone outside their anti-gun group). She probably doesn’t even live in Texas.