In response to Absolute Truth Post A brief debate with a Christian, on the subject of the incarnation. By Al-Arba’een fi Usul Al-Deen.
So often is the case that our Muslim friends chose to seek the guidance of man in their theology and faith instead of referring to the Holy Text of our respective faith…… Let us look at what the Qur'an has to say on the Incarnation of Allah.
Surah 20:10-13 tells us the story of Moses and the burning bush.
“When he saw a fire and said to his family, "Stay here; indeed, I have perceived a fire; perhaps I can bring you a torch or find at the fire some guidance." And when he came to it, he was called, "O Moses, Indeed, I am your Lord, so remove your sandals. Indeed, you are in the sacred valley of Tuwa. And I have chosen you, so listen to what is revealed [to you].”
وَأَنَا ٱخْتَرْتُكَ فَٱسْتَمِعْ لِمَا يُوحَىٰٓ
إِنِّىٓ أَنَا۠ رَبُّكَ فَٱخْلَعْ نَعْلَيْكَ ۖ إِنَّكَ بِٱلْوَادِ ٱلْمُقَدَّسِ طُوًى
فَلَمَّآ أَتَىٰهَا نُودِىَ يَٰمُوسَىٰٓ
إِذْ رَءَا نَارًا فَقَالَ لِأَهْلِهِ ٱمْكُثُوٓا۟ إِنِّىٓ ءَانَسْتُ نَارًا لَّعَلِّىٓ ءَاتِيكُم مِّنْهَا بِقَبَسٍ أَوْ أَجِدُ عَلَى ٱلنَّارِ هُدًى
First Allah says he has chosen Moses. Two things need to be noted, Moses is mentioned 136 by name in the Qur'an – Muhammad is only mentioned 4 time. This show us the importance Allah places against the revelation given to Moses verses Muhammad. Secondly there is no verse in the Qur'an where Allah states that he has chosen Muhammad as a prophet or his representative on earth. In this verse Allah speak in the first person “Iam your Lord” & “I have chosen you” there are very few verse in the Qur'an that has Allah speaking in the first person and no that is directed at Muhammad.
Finally we have Allah identify himself as the Moses God. “I am your Lord” speaking directly from the burning Bush. He then Instruct Moses to remove his sandals …. A direct command.
Conclusion Allah is in the World interacting directly with his creation, the incarnate God. So form the Qur'an Allah shows his ability to be a burning bush – why could Allah then not incarnate himself as Jesus Christ? – Well he does in surah 3:45 and confirmed in 3:39, 2:87 and 5:110.
We just need to read the text and you will gain true guidance.

Muslims try to reinterpret Biblical scripture to prove Muhammad was prophesied in the Bible. The key verse used is Deuteronomy 18:18 and John 14:26, 16:7. By linking this two a few obscure Quranic verses our Muslim friends seems to feel this is sufficient to uphold Mohammad as a true Biblical prophet.
Qur’an 46:10 Say: Have you considered if it is from Allah, and you
disbelieve in it, and a witness from among the Children of israel has borne
witness of one like him, so he believed, while you are big with pride? Surely
Allah doesn't guide the wrongdoing people.
Qur'an 3:81 And [recall, O People of the Scripture], when Allah took
the covenant of the prophets, [saying], "Whatever I give you of the
Scripture and wisdom and then there comes to you an Apostle confirming what is
with you, you [must] believe in him and support him." [Allah] said,
"Have you acknowledged and taken upon that My commitment?" They said,
"We have acknowledged it." He said, "Then bear witness, and I am
with you among the witnesses."
This is what I call Islamic Gymnastics – desperately seek the gold affirmation in the Bible but forever falling short. For example the Islamic conclusion is the coming of the Holy Spirit is no other than the man Muhammad who is like Moses and will be with the Christian faith forever!!!
However before we enter any debate regarding the Islamic view of Muhammad predicted in the Bible our Muslim friends need to address the Quran rendering of Mohammad as a false prophet. This is something our Muslim friends simply avoid and refuse
to answer.
The name Mohammad is only used four times in the Quran, one of these occurrence is used to specifically warning Mohammad not to make any false sayings about US / Allah (عَلَيْنَا = against Us). So let us explore what the Quran teaches about false prophets.
Surah 69:44-46
And if Muhammad had made up about Us some [false]
sayings, We would have seized him by the right hand; Then We would have cut
(sever) from him the aorta.
Take note of the use of US in this passage – This is plural suggesting more than one Allah or possibility the Trinity?
To make sure I am not miss representing the Islamic faith I confirm the understanding of the passage from one of the greatest Muslim commentaries Tafsir Jalalayn:
And had he namely the Prophet s fabricated any lies
against Us by communicating from Us that which We have not said, We would have
assuredly seized him We would have exacted vengeance against him as punishment
by the Right Hand by Our strength and power; Then We would have assuredly
severed his life-artery the aorta of the heart a vein that connects with it and
which if severed results in that person’s death.
So this clears up any accusation that I have miss-interpreted the verse, taken it out of context or reconstructed it to suit my argument. In addition we are not taking the passage out of context as the surrounding verse are all about the authority of the Quran.
So how did Mohammad die? We find our answers in the Hadiths and bibliographies of Mohammad. Interesting thought though is our Muslim friends love comparing biblical figures with Mohammad as a means to support their various traditions of faith. There is no prediction of Mohammad’s death in the Quran, even with Mohammad’s status as the great prophet he himself did not foresee his death. While Jesus predicted his death six times, that is 33% more times than Mohammad’s name is mentioned in the Quran. (Mathew 16:21-28, 17:22-23, Mark 8:31-9:1, 9:30-32, Luke 9:21-27, 9:44-45) Please note this is over and above the prophecies in the Old Testament. Muhammad makes no prediction of his death.
So how did Muhammad die? We have the narrative in a number of Hadiths and Sira’s.
In summary Mohammad while on a raid had killed the Husband, Father and Uncle of a Jewess woman called Zaynab d. al-Harith. She then invited Mohammad and his companions for a meal which she had prepared and added poison to the lamb. While eating the meal Mohammad had a revelation that the Lamb had been poisoned and told the companions to stop eating. He then enquired from Zaynab d. al-Harith why she had done this. Her reply was If you were a prophet, it would not harm you; but if you were a king, I should rid the people of you. The effects of the poison took toll on Mohammad for approximately a three year period be for he finally died, during which time he said on a number of occasions the effects of the poison was cutting his aorta.
(HADITH REFERENCES :- Sahih Al-Bukhari Hadith
(Hadith 5.713), Sunan of Abu-Dawood Hadith (Hadith
2135), Sunan of Abu-Dawood Hadith (Hadith
2134), Sahih Al-Bukhari Hadith
(Hadith 7.647), Sahih al-Bukhari 2588, Sahih
al-Bukhari 2617, Sahih al-Bukhari 2797, Sahih al-Bukhari 4428, Sahih Muslim
5430, Sunan Abu Dawud 4498, Sunan Abu Dawud 4449, Sunan Ibn Majah 1622.)
(SIRA REFERENCES :- Ibn Ishaq, p. 516, Ibn Ishaq,
p. 516, At-Tabari, Volume 8, p. 124, Ibn Sa’d, Volume 2, pp. 251-252)
From this one can only wonder why Allah did not warn Mohammad before he ate the poisoned meat, and secondly who kills a erson’s husband one day and the next evening you go and have dinner prepared by the wife of the massacred family.
Thirdly note must be made that when one reads the Quran it is apparent that Allah gives Mahammad his every desire, for example he can have more than the number of prescribed wife’s, he may marry his divorced adopted sons wife and so on.
One then would expect Allah to honour the final prophet his greatest desire, which was to die in battle a hero. (Sahih al-Bukhari 2797). But it is apparent from the Hadiths that this is not the case and we are confronted with a fighting revelation from the Authentic and most revered Islamic traditions how Mohammad died. So why did Allah allow Mohammad to die in such a painful manner?
The Quran gives us the answer in Surah 69:44-46,
And if he (Muhammad) had forged a false saying concerning Us
We surely should have seized him by his right hand (or with power
and might), and then certainly should have cut off his life artery (Aorta).
From the Tafsir we see Allah is clear that if Muhammad were make false revelations Allah Muhammad would kill Mohammad in a traumatic death by having his life artery severed. The following Tafsir confirm this interpretation that if Mouhammad had invented, false sayings, lied or attributed anything concerning Us (Allah) which was not revealed to Mohammad, Allah would most assuredly take revenge against him. And cut off Mohammad’s life artery. (Tafsir Ibn Abbas, Tafsir Jalalayn, Tafsir Ibn Kathir” This has also been said by ‘Ikrimah, Sa’id bin Jubayr, Al-Hakim, Qatadah, Ad-Dahhak, Muslim Al-Batin and Abu Sakhr Humayd bin Ziyad).
The understanding of this has huge theological implications on the Islamic faith and something that one would thought would be
addressed by the Islamic scholars but once again this seems to be hidden away in the typical Islamic verbal Gymnastics rather than deal with the issue.
From a Christian perspective we understand you reap what you sow as taught by Jesus in Mathew 26:52, although the Jewish women was most properly refereeing to Deuteronomy 18:20 in prayer to Yahweh seeking answers to the persecution leaved at the Jew of the time by Mohammad. Interesting theological point here is that our Muslim friends use Deuteronomy 18:18 as
proof of Mohammad’s ministry been prophesied in the Bible.
By doing this our Muslim friends are confirm these scripture to be authentic and un-corrupted and thus in comparison to the Quran’s rendering of Surah 69:44-46 there is a striking parallel between the two passages. “The God of creation will kill any person who claims to be a prophet and is falsely testifies against Him.” The Quran offer a bit more detail in that it describes the method of
the death of a false prophet. What was Mohammad’s exact words on the Sahih al-Bukhari, Suna Abu Dawud, At Tabari confirms
that Mohammad said: -
“I feel my aorta is been cut from the poison”,
“This is the time when it has cut of my aorta”
“At this very moment I fell my aorta been severed”
Off all the hundreds of ways a person could die, Allah killed Mohammad for been a false prophet. His What I find even more fascinating is that Mohammad of all people knew the Quran and recited it in full yearly to the angle Gabriel, please not this recitation is not only one dialect but in all seven different dialects – therefore at no stage can any Muslim claim that Mohammad had no understanding or knowledge of Surah 69-44-46. Yet on his death bed Mohammed tell those around him “MY AORTA IS BEEN CUT !” = Hey Guys, I am about to die a death of a false prophet, you gullible idiotic fools for believing on Allah.
Let us back this up, to show how powerful the One True God of All Creation is, and that his decrees will be fulfilled as we read in
ibn Sa’d page 252-253 :- It is narrated that Bishr ibn al-Bara could taste the poison when he ate the meat. No one says anything and everyone happily eats, waiting for Mohammad to give a revelation. I suggest that this is not because of any other reason but that the true God of Creation had had enough and what He wills happens and His will was to expose the false prophet called Mohammad.
Thus one has two option to accept the Islamic traditions, history and commands of the Quran that Mohammad is a false prophet or come up with a reasonable explanation of why Mohammad died as a false prophet and we should take his revelations in the Quran seriously. Noting at this point Surah 5:46 And We ordained for them ………… And whoever does not judge by what Allah has revealed - then it is those who are the wrongdoers.
Please take note nothing here has come from a Christian perspective this is all based on Islamic Tradition, History Biographies and the Quran, in other word this is the Islamic standard. Therefore is Mohammad predicted in the Bible – yes he is noted as the Anti-Christ and False Prophet (1 John2:23, 2 Thessalonians 2:3-4, Revelation 13:3-5, 1 John 2:18)
When discussing this with my Muslim friends their response is firstly we do not understand the text as we as westerners and
Christians do not speak or understand Arabic, and the Quran can only be properly understood in pure Arabic.
Typically I ask well do you understand Arabic and in most cases the average Muslim does not, they may be able to recite the Quran but have little or no knowledge of Arabic themselves. However let us be fair and accept this argument for a moment. This on the face of the matter then excluded millions of Muslims who have no understand of the text. Secondly all the Islamic scholar who have translated the Quran into various languages so their followers can have understanding have fabricated or falsely translated the pure Arabic thus purposefully leading millions of Muslims astray. Thirdly all the engineers and whiz kids of the world who write translation programs and tools for example google have also purposefully ensured that the result of using their product if false and in error of the truth. In other word Islam is saying no one understands their faith unless you are able to read and understand Arabic. Wow
how observed can one get.
The second objection our Muslim friends come up with is we have no comprehension or understanding of the term IF as used in Surah 69:44 “And IF he (Mohammad)…….” By this the Islamic view is If Mohammad had of invented, false sayings, lied or
attributed anything concerning Allah than which was not revealed, Allah would have punished him immediately. Since the Allah allowed the revelation of the Quran to be completed Mohammad is not guilty of inventing any surah in the Quran.
The theological implication of accepting this is an unfathomable, in that the implication is each time we humans sin Allah will
immediately and without any delay implement judgment on us. There is no time to do any good deed to try and balance the scales our Muslim friends desperately battel daily doing, no time for prayer, no time for forgiveness and no time for mercy.
Therefore the All merciful Allah then is non-existent and no more. Thus the Quran in its self is false in that it teaches Allah to be a merciful god.
In addition our Muslim friends add that since there is a time period of approximately three years between Mohammad been poisoned to his death means that his aorta was not ever severed as if one were to cut Mohammad’s aorta death would occur inside five minutes and this is medically attested. Since this did not happen Mohammad is a true prophet of Allah.
In response to this we must carefully consider two points, is the god of All Creation all powerful or not and does the God of All
Creation show grace and mercy to His creation. Not only do both the Bible and the Quran confirm Yahweh and Allah to be all-powerful all-knowing is goes on to say that we as humans will never understand the ways of the One True God not to
mention His controlling hand over his creation. Both the Quran and the Bible teach the Yahweh and Allah are patience’s, kind and merciful. The bible goes a step further to say were sin abounds Yahweh grace abound more. (Romans 5:20).
Note must also be made that Bishr ibn al-Bara' ibn Ma'rur al-Ansari died immediately at the table after eating the poisoned meat so did the dog they feed before he could move his forelegs. The implication here is that the death from the poison having ingested sufficient amount was rather quick.
A more plausible solution to the theological nightmare our Muslim friends create for themselves, is that the approximate three year
period of suffering Mohammad underwent was his time of grace and mercy. Allah was calling him to set the record straight, was his time to balance the scales, this was his time to ask forgiveness yet he never does and as time wore on the effects of the poison took deeper and deeper hold and bit by bit severed his life vein over a three period in a manner only an truly all mighty God can do.
The most plausible argument I have heard is that the term “server his aorta” is a poetic phrase and cannot be taken literally. Well then if that is the case what is the meaning of the phrase “server his aorta” I asked. To this the reply was simply to die. Ok so we accept this poetic phrase to mean to die and we substitute it into both the Quran and the Hadith and we reprocess the whole discussion to concluded Muhammad die a death on Islamic standard as a false prophet.
The fact remains Mohammad said the effects of the poison was like having his aorta cut. This is not a statement people generally make or even understand what it feels like. Something like it feels like my chest is been crushed would be more reasonable. However this is not the case and clearly the Hadiths show Mahammad understood clearly what he was saying.
The Question Is – with all the Islamic gymnastic applied to their own and other text why is something so simple missed. Well it proves
Mohammad to have been a master mind in politics and manipulation of an entire nation. Islamic leader ever since have followed Mohammad’s example and continued to milk the cow for all its worth at the expense of millions of souls on a straight path to hell.
Surah 4:163-164
Indeed, We have revealed to you, [O Muhammad], as
We revealed to Noah and the prophets after him. And we revealed to Abraham,
Ishmael, Isaac, Jacob, the Descendants, Jesus, Job, Jonah, Aaron, and Solomon,
and to David We gave the book [of Psalms].And [We sent] messengers about whom
We have related [their stories] to you before and messengers about whom We have
not related to you. And Allah spoke to Moses with [direct] speech.
Quran confirm that if anyone is in doubt to check with
the Jews and Christians.
Surah 10:94
So if you
are in doubt, [O Muhammad], about that which We have revealed to you, then ask
those who have been reading the Scripture before you. The truth has certainly
come to you from your Lord, so never be among the doubter
Surah 9:30 – Allah
curse those who assigns partners.
The Jews say, "Ezra is the son of Allah
"; and the Christians say, "The Messiah is the son of Allah ."
That is their statement from their mouths; they imitate the saying of those who
disbelieved [before them]. May Allah destroy them; how are they deluded?
Surah 5:18 – Allah
the Father to no one.
But the Jews and the Christians say, "We are
the children of Allah and His beloved." Say, "Then why does He punish
you for your sins?" Rather, you are human beings from among those He has
created. He forgives whom He wills, and He punishes whom He wills. And to Allah
belongs the dominion of the heavens and the earth and whatever is between them,
and to Him is the [final] destination.
Surah 19:88-93 –
closest you get to Allah is the master slave relationship.
And they say, "The Most Merciful has taken
[for Himself] a son." You have done an atrocious thing. The heavens almost
rupture therefrom and the earth splits open and the mountains collapse in
devastation. That they attribute to the Most Merciful a son. And it is not
appropriate for the Most Merciful that He should take a son. There is no one in
the heavens and earth but that he comes to the Most Merciful as a servant.
Quran
Qur’an 69:44-46—And if he (Muhammad) had forged a false
saying concerning Us We surely should have seized him by his right hand (or
with power and might), and then certainly should have cut off his life artery
(Aorta). (Hilali-Khan)
Qur’an 69:44-46—And if he had invented false sayings concerning Us, We
assuredly had taken him by the right hand and then severed his
life-artery. (Pickthall)
Qur’an 69:44-46—Had he invented lies concerning Us, We would have seized him by
the right hand and severed his heart’s vein. (Dawood)
Qur’an 69:44-46—And if he had fabricated against Us some of the sayings, We
would certainly have seized him by the right hand, then We would certainly have
cut off his aorta. (Shakir)
ثُمَّ لَقَطَعْنَا مِنْهُ الْوَتِينَ
Then We would have cut from him the aorta.
1 John 2:23
Who is the liar?
It is whoever denies that Jesus is the Christ. Such a person is the
antichrist—denying the Father and the Son. No one who denies the Son has the
Father; whoever acknowledges the Son has the Father also.
2 Thessalonians 2:3-4
Don’t let anyone deceive you in any way, for that day will not come until
the rebellion occurs
and the man of lawlessness[a] is revealed, the man doomed to destruction. 4 He will oppose and will exalt himself
over everything that is called God or is worshiped, so that he sets himself up in
God’s temple, proclaiming himself to be God.
Revelation 13:3-5,
3 One of the heads of the beast
seemed to have had a fatal wound, but the fatal wound had been
healed. The whole world was filled with wonder and followed the
beast. 4 People worshiped the dragon
because he had given authority to the beast, and they also worshiped the beast
and asked, “Who is like the beast? Who can wage war against it?”
5 The beast was given a mouth to
utter proud words and blasphemies and to exercise its authority for forty-two
months.
1 John 2:18
Children, it is the last hour; and just as you have heard
that the antichrist is coming, so now many antichrists have appeared. This is
how we know it is the last hour.
MUSLIM COMMENTARIES
Tafsir Ibn Abbas on Qur’an 69:44-46—(And if he had invented) and had Muhammad
invented (false sayings concerning Us) lies against Us and attributed to Us
that which We did not say, (We assuredly had taken him) We assuredly had taken
revenge against him (by the right hand) by means of truth and proofs; it is
also said this means: We assuredly had vehemently taken him. (And then severed
his life artery) the life artery of Muhammad (pbuh).
Tafsir Jalalayn on Qur’an 69:44-46—And had he, namely, the Prophet (s),
fabricated any lies against Us, by communicating from Us that which We have not
said, We would have assuredly seized him, We would have exacted vengeance
[against him], as punishment, by the Right Hand, by [Our] strength and power;
then We would have assuredly severed his life-artery, the aorta of the heart, a
vein that connects with it, and which if severed results in that person’s death.
Tafsir Ibn Kathir on Qur’an 69:46—(And then We certainly would have cut off
Al-Watin from him,) Ibn ‘Abbas said, “It (Al-Watin) refers to the artery of the
heart, and it is the vein that is attached to the heart.” This has also been
said by ‘Ikrimah, Sa’id bin Jubayr, Al-Hakim, Qatadah, Ad-Dahhak, Muslim
Al-Batin and Abu Sakhr Humayd bin Ziyad.
HADITH REFERENCES
Sahih Al-Bukhari Hadith (Hadith 5.713)
'Umar bin Al-Khattab used to let Ibn Abbas sit beside
him, so 'Abdur Rahman bin 'Auf said to 'Umar, "We have sons similar to
him." 'Umar replied, "(I respect him) because of his status that you
know." 'Umar then asked Ibn 'Abbas about the meaning of this Holy Verse:
"When comes the help of Allah and the Conquest of Mecca . . ."
(110.1)
Ibn 'Abbas replied, "That indicated the death of
Allah's Apostle which Allah informed him of." 'Umar said, "I do not
understand of it except what you understand."
Narrated 'Aisha: The Prophet in his ailment in which he
died, used to say, "O 'Aisha! I still feel the pain caused by the food I
ate at Khaibar, and at this time, I feel as if my aorta is being cut from that poison."
Sunan of Abu-Dawood Hadith (Hadith 2135)
Umm Mubashshir said to the Prophet (peace be upon him)
during the sickness of which he died: What do you think about your illness,
Apostle of Allah (peace be upon him)? I do not think about the illness of my
son except the poisoned sheep of which he had eaten with you at Khaybar. The
Prophet (peace be upon him) said: And I do not think about my illness except
that. This is the time when it cut off my aorta.
Sunan of Abu-Dawood Hadith (Hadith 2134)
Muhammad ibn Amr said on the authority of AbuSalamah, and
he did not mention the name of AbuHurayrah: The Apostle of Allah (peace be upon
him) used to accept presents but not alms (sadaqah). This version adds: So a
Jewess presented him at Khaybar with a roasted sheep which she had poisoned.
The Apostle of Allah (peace be upon him) ate of it and the people also ate. He
then said: Take away your hands (from the food), for it has informed me that it
is poisoned. Bishr ibn al-Bara' ibn Ma'rur al-Ansari died. So he (the Prophet)
sent for the Jewess (and said to her): What motivated you to do the work you
have done? She said: If you were a prophet, it would not harm you; but if you
were a king, I should rid the people of you. The Apostle of Allah (peace be
upon him) then ordered regarding her and she was killed. He then said about the
pain of which he died: I continued to feel pain from the morsel which I had
eaten at Khaybar. This is the time when it has cut off my aorta.
Sahih Al-Bukhari Hadith (Hadith 7.647)
The Prophet, during his fatal ailment used to blow (on
his hands and pass them) over his body while reciting the Mu'auwidhat
(Surat-an-Nas and Surat-al-Falaq). When his disease got aggravated, I used to recite them for him and blow (on his hands)
and let him pass his hands over his body because of its blessing. (Ma'mar asked
Ibn Shihab: How did he use to do Nafth? He said: He used to blow on his hands
and then pass them over his face.)
Sahih al-Bukhari 2588—Aisha said, “When the Prophet became sick and his
condition became serious, he requested his wives to allow him to be treated in
my house, and they allowed him. He came out leaning on two men while his feet
were dragging on the ground.”
Sahih al-Bukhari 2617—A Jewess brought a poisoned (cooked) sheep for the
Prophet who ate from it. She was brought to the Prophet and was asked, “Shall
we kill her?” He said, “No.” Anas added: “I continued to see the effect of the
poison on the palate of the mouth of Allah’s Messenger.”
Sahih al-Bukhari 2797—The Prophet said, . . . “By Him in Whose Hands my soul
is! I would love to be martyred in Allah’s Cause and then come back to life and
then get martyred, and then come back to life again and then get martyred and
then come back to life again and then get martyred.”
Sahih al-Bukhari 4428—The Prophet in his ailment in which he died, used to say,
“O Aishah! I still feel the pain caused by the food I ate at Khaibar, and at
this time, I feel as if my aorta is being cut from that poison.”
Sahih Muslim 5430—A Jewess came to Allah’s Messenger with poisoned mutton and
he took of what had been brought to him. (When the effects of this poison were
felt by him) he called for her and asked her about that, whereupon she said: I
had determined to kill you. Thereupon he said: Allah will never give you the
power to do it.
Sunan Abu Dawud 4498—A Jewess presented [Muhammad] at Khaibar a roasted sheep
which she had poisoned. The Apostle of Allah ate of it and the people also ate.
He then said: Lift your hands (from eating), for it has informed me that it is
poisoned. Bishr b. al-Bara b. Ma’rur al-Ansari died. So he (the Prophet) sent
for the Jewess (and said to her): What motivated you to do the work you have
done? She said: If you were a prophet, it would not harm you; but if you were a
king, I would rid the people of you. The Apostle of Allah then ordered
regarding her and she was killed. He then said about the pain of which he died:
I continued to feel pain from the morsel which I had eaten at Khaibar. This is
the time when it has cut off my aorta.
Sunan Abu Dawud 4449—Umm Bishr said to the Prophet during the sickness of which
he died: What do you think about your illness, Apostle of Allah? I do not think
about the illness of my son except the poisoned sheep of which he had eaten
with you at Khaibar. The Prophet said: And I do not think about my illness
except that. This is the time when it cut off my aorta.
Sunan Ibn Majah 1622—Aishah said: “I never saw anyone suffer more pain than the
Messenger of Allah.”
SIRA REFERENCES
Ibn Ishaq, p. 516—When the apostle had rested, Zaynab d. al-Harith, the
wife of Sallam b. Mishkam prepared for him a roast lamb, having first inquired
what joint he preferred. When she learned that it was the shoulder she put a
lot of poison in it and poisoned the whole lamb. Then she brought it in and
placed it before him. He took hold of the shoulder and chewed a morsel of it,
but he did not swallow it. Bishr b. al-Bara b. Ma’rur who was with him took
some of it as the apostle had done, but he swallowed it, while the apostle spat
it out, saying, ‘This bone tells me that it is poisoned.’ Then he called for
the woman and she confessed, and when he asked her what had induced her to do
this she answered: ‘You know what you have done to my people. I said to myself,
If he is a king I shall ease myself of him and if he is a prophet he will be
informed (of what I have done).’ So the apostle let her off. Bishr died from
what he had eaten.
Ibn Ishaq, p. 516—Marwan b. Uthman b. Abu Sa’id b. al-Mu’alla told me: The
apostle had said in his illness of which he was to die when Umm Bishr d.
al-Bara came to visit him, ‘O Umm Bishr, this is the time in which I feel a
deadly pain from what I ate with your brother at Khaybar.’
At-Tabari, Volume 8, p. 124—The Messenger of God said during the illness from
which he died—the mother of Bishr b. al-Bara had come in to visit him—“Umm
Bishr, at this very moment I feel my aorta being severed because of the food I
ate with your son at Khaybar.”
Ibn Sa’d, Volume 2, pp. 251-252—When the Apostle of Allah, may Allah bless him,
conquered Khaybar and he had peace of mind, Zaynab Bint al-Harith, the brother
of Marhab, who was the spouse of Sallam Ibn Mishkam, inquired: Which part of
the goat is liked by Muhammad? They said: The foreleg. Then she slaughtered one
from her goats and roasted it (the meat). Then she wanted a poison which could
not fail. The Jews discussed about poisons and became united on one poison. She
poisoned the she-goat putting more poison on the forelegs, and shoulder. When
the sun had set and the Apostle of Allah, may Allah bless him, returned after
leading the people in Maghrib (sun-set) prayers, she sat by his feet. He asked
her about her. She said: O Abu al-Qasim! Here is a present which I wish to
offer to you. The Prophet, may Allah bless him, ordered it to be taken. It was
served to him and to his Companions who were present and among those who were
present was Bishr Ibn al-Bara Ibn Ma’rur. Then the Apostle of Allah, may Allah
bless him, said: Come closer and have night meal. The Apostle of Allah, may
Allah bless him, took the foreleg, a piece of which he put into his mouth.
Bishr Ibn al-Bara took another bone and put it into his mouth. When the Apostle
of Allah, may Allah bless him, ate one morsel of it Bishr ate his and other
people also ate from it. Then the Apostle of Allah, may Allah bless him, said:
Hold back your hands! Because this foreleg; and according to another version,
the shoulder of the goat, has informed me that it is poisoned. Thereupon Bishr
said: By Him Who hath made you great! I discovered it from the morsel I took.
Nothing prevented me from emitting it out, but the idea that I did not like to
make your food unrelishing. When you had eaten what was in your mouth, I did
not like to save my life after yours, and I also thought you would not have
eaten it if there was something wrong. Bishr did not rise from his seat but his
color changed to that of taylsan (a green cloth). For a year the pain did not
permit him to change his sides but with the help of others and then he expired.
According to another version, he died before leaving his seat. He (Ibn Sa’d)
said: A peace of it was dropped before a dog who ate it and died (instantaneously)
without being able to move its foreleg. The Apostle of Allah sent for Zaynab
Bint al-Harith and said to her: What induced you to do what you have done? She
replied: You have done to my people what you have done. You have killed my
father, my uncle, and my husband, so I said to myself. If you are a prophet,
the foreleg will inform you; and others have said: If you are a king we will
get rid of you. The Jewess returned as she had come. He (Ibn Sa’d) said: The
Apostle of Allah, may Allah bless him, handed her over to the heirs of Bishr
Ibn al-Bara who put her to death.

I find it interesting when Muslims use scripture support there faith in Islam, more oftern than not there lack of insight and understanding creates a huge Islamic Dilemma for then as is the case here:-
Firstly we must understand that our Muslim friends are confirm these to scriptures mentioned in this post have not been corrupted and are in fact true.This is confirmed by the Islamic confirm of addopting these teaching into there faith as explained in post #1.
This passage of Luke 24:36 is chronologically place after the Death and burial of Christ, This is confirmed in verse 37 with Jesus showing the wounds of the Crucifixion the disciples.
Therefore Islam confirms the Death and Resurrection of Christ, when ever they say Peace Be With You.
Like wise here in Mathew - as noted in a previous post above Jesus is not in teacher mode here, but one can follow this example of prayer, but then follow the full example not only half the example ---- as the second part of the passage says, praying "My Father ........."
Thus five times a day our Muslim friend prostrate themselves towards Mecca and confirm the 1st person of the Holy Trinity.
Now my understanding this is the unforgivable sin called Shirk. Thus by Islamic standards and teaching as noted in post #1 all Muslims are descend for Hell and they do not even know it.
Raises the Question what else are there teachers hiding from them?

Hi and thank you for the links offered. Having read these two discussion my question is this.
To believe the Quran is un-created means that it pre-existed creation and was therefore with Allah in eternity passed and therefore will always exist in the future with Allah.
Thus following 9:6 of the Quran allahas word is the Quran, this then by implication means we have two untreated begins the Quran and Allah.
Thus Allah has a partner or His word which is the Quran.
Now the Islamic teaching is Allah has no partners. 25:2 & 17:111
Thus we have two choices:
The Quran is un-created and Allah therefore has a partner = Shirk
The Quran is created and Allah has no partners.

i am a Christian who found the faith late in life (42) over the pasted 11 years it is clear that Islam opposes Christianity yet affirms it if it does not contradict the Quran and at the same time relies on the wealth of the Biblical prophets to give body and depth to it faith.
However at close examination a number of questions arise, and when these questioned are asked I have had a multitude of different answers which rarely are supported by any evidence other than "We say so"
For example Islam claims that the oral tradition of the Quran is a perfect science and back by unbroken chains of transmission. Yet when one read the Hadith it is clear that at the time of Mohammad a companion hear another companion recite a Surah different to what Mohammad had taught. Taking the man to Mohammad he asked the prophet which recitation is correct, The prophet said both.
The typical response is it is only a dialect problem. Yet that is not the true rendering of the Hadith.
So one is left confused on the basis that the Hadith are reinterpreted to suit the science of transmission or Muslims are simple dishonest to there own faith under the banner of Taqiyya.
When I challenged my Muslim friends say this is just an aggressive approach from a anti-Islamic Christian who can not listen, who has a reading comprehension problem with has no logic or reason. A sad response to is viewed as nothing else but I do not have an answer so let me attack you on a personal level, which in the end of the day simple exposes Islam as a religion set of violence and not peace as it so boldly claims.
So I am here to get honest straight answers to hard questions and hopefully without the typical Islamic gymnastic.
Regards Doug

Muslims ask, “How could Allah, being one, have a Son?” Misunderstanding the Trinity, they sometimes charge Christians with worshiping three gods. However, Christians believe that only one true God exists. Jesus Himself upheld monotheism. When asked for the greatest command, Jesus responded, “. . . The Lord our God, the Lord is one. And you shall love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind and with all your strength” (Mark 12:29-30). Jesus taught that God is one, and Jesus taught that He was one with God (John 10:30). In response, the Jews picked up stones to stone Jesus because they thought He was guilty of blasphemy. Similarly, Muslims would say a man claiming to be God would be guilty of “shirk.” However, Jesus is not a mere man claiming to be God. He is the Son of God in human flesh (John 10:36-38). The title “Son of God” does not mean Jesus was literally born from God. The Bible does not teach a physical relationship between God and Mary, as Muslims sometimes charge. At the birth of Jesus, the angel told the virgin Mary: “. . . ‘Do not be afraid, Mary, for you have found favor with God. And behold, you will conceive in your womb and bear a son, and you shall call his name Jesus. He will be great and will be called the Son of the Most High. . . . of his kingdom there will be no end.’ And Mary said to the angel, ‘How will this be, since I am a virgin?’ And the angel answered her, ‘The Holy Spirit will come upon you, and the power of the Most High will overshadow you; therefore the child to be born will be called holy—the Son of God’” (Luke 1:30-35). Pastor John MacArthur explains these verses: “Since a son bears his father’s qualities, calling a person someone else’s ‘son’ was a way of signifying equality. Here the angel was telling Mary that her Son would be equal to the Most High God” (The MacArthur Study Bible). Man’s testimony that Jesus is God’s Son When people witnessed Jesus’ miracles, teaching, death, resurrection, and ascension to heaven, many believed Jesus is the Son of God. • Followers of Jesus testified after He calmed a storm: “And when they got into the boat, the wind ceased. And those in the boat worshiped him, saying, ‘Truly you are the Son of God’” (Matthew 14:32-33). • Peter testified: “Now when Jesus came into the district of Caesarea Philippi, he asked his disciples, ‘Who do people say that the Son of Man is?’ And they said, ‘Some say John the Baptist, others say Elijah, and others Jeremiah or one of the prophets.’ He said to them, ‘But who do you say that I am?’ Simon Peter replied, ‘You are the Christ, the Son of the living God.’ And Jesus answered him, ‘Blessed are you, Simon Bar-Jonah! For flesh and blood has not revealed this to you, but my Father who is in heaven’” (Matthew 16:13-17). • A woman, whose brother Jesus raised to life, testified: “Jesus said to her, ‘I am the resurrection and the life. Whoever believes in me, though he die, yet shall he live, and everyone who lives and believes in me shall never die. Do you believe this?’ She said to him, ‘Yes, Lord; I believe that you are the Christ, the Son of God, who is coming into the world’” (John 11:25-27). • Even the demons know Jesus is the Son of God: “Whenever the evil spirits saw him, they fell down before him and cried out, ‘You are the Son of God’” (Mark 3:11). • A military officer and soldiers who were guarding Jesus at His death on the cross testified: “When the centurion and those who were with him, keeping watch over Jesus, saw the earthquake and what took place, they were filled with awe and said, ‘Truly this was the Son of God!’” (Matthew 27:54). • Thomas testified after Jesus rose from the dead: “Now Thomas, one of the Twelve, called the Twin, was not with them when Jesus came. So the other disciples told him, ‘We have seen the Lord.’ But he said to them, ‘Unless I see in his hands the mark of the nails, and place my finger into the mark of the nails, and place my hand into his side, I will never believe.’ Eight days later, his disciples were inside again, and Thomas was with them. Although the doors were locked, Jesus came and stood among them and said, ‘Peace be with you.’ Then he said to Thomas, ‘Put your finger here, and see my hands; and put out your hand, and place it in my side. Do not disbelieve, but believe.’ Thomas answered him, ‘My Lord and my God!’ Jesus said to him, ‘Have you believed because you have seen me? Blessed are those who have not seen and yet have believed.’ Now Jesus did many other signs in the presence of the disciples, which are not written in this book; but these are written so that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God, and that by believing you may have life in his name” (John 20:24-31). Jesus’ own testimony that He is God’s Son • “This was why the Jews were seeking all the more to kill [Jesus], because not only was he breaking the Sabbath, but he was even calling God his own Father, making himself equal with God. So Jesus said to them, ‘Truly, truly, I say to you, the Son can do nothing of his own accord, but only what he sees the Father doing. For whatever the Father does, that the Son does likewise. For the Father loves the Son and shows him all that he himself is doing. And greater works than these will he show him, so that you may marvel. For as the Father raises the dead and gives them life, so also the Son gives life to whom he will. The Father judges no one, but has given all judgment to the Son, that all may honor the Son, just as they honor the Father. Whoever does not honor the Son does not honor the Father who sent him. Truly, truly, I say to you, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life. He does not come into judgment, but has passed from death to life’” (John 5:18-24). • At Jesus’ trial, He testified: “. . . Again the high priest asked him, ‘Are you the Christ, the Son of the Blessed?’ And Jesus said, ‘I am, and you will see the Son of Man seated at the right hand of Power, and coming with the clouds of heaven’" (Mark 14:61-62). • “We know also that the Son of God has come and has given us understanding, so that we may know him who is true. And we are in him who is true—even in his Son Jesus Christ. He is the true God and eternal life” (1 John 5:20). God’s testimony that Jesus is His Son • God spoke at Jesus’ baptism: “This is my beloved Son in whom I am well pleased” (Matthew 3:17). • “While he was speaking, a cloud appeared and enveloped them, and they were afraid as they entered the cloud. A voice came from the cloud, saying, ‘This is my Son, whom I have chosen; listen to him’” (Luke 9:34-35). • “If we receive the testimony of men, the testimony of God is greater, for this is the testimony of God that he has borne concerning his Son. Whoever believes in the Son of God has the testimony in himself. Whoever does not believe God has made him a liar, because he has not believed in the testimony that God has borne concerning his Son. And this is the testimony, that God gave us eternal life, and this life is in his Son. Whoever has the Son has life; whoever does not have the Son of God does not have life. I write these things to you who believe in the name of the Son of God that you may know that you have eternal life” (1 John 5:9-13). • Previously, God had spoken to man through His prophets, but then He sent His own Son: “In the past God spoke to our forefathers by the prophets at many times and in various ways. But in these last days He has spoken to us by His Son whom He has appointed heir of all things, and through whom He made the universe. The Son is the radiance of God’s glory and the exact representation of His being, sustaining all things by His powerful word. After he had provided purification for sins, He sat down at the right hand of the Majesty in heaven” (Hebrews 1:1-3). Jesus is the “exact representation” of God. Although one with His Father in essence, Jesus is also distinct in Person as God’s Son. God has revealed Himself as one God manifest in three Persons: the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit. Even before the world began, Jesus was always with God and was God (John 1:1-2; 17:5). God created all things in the universe through Jesus (John 1:3; Colossians 1:15-20). Although eternally one with God, Jesus came to earth in the form of man (Philippians 2:5-11). Born to the virgin Mary, Jesus is fully God and fully man at the same time (the incarnation: Matthew 1:22-23; John 1:14; Romans 1:3-4; Colossians 2:9; 1 John 4:1-3; 5:20). Believe in the Son of God We must believe God’s Word that Jesus is God’s Son, even though it’s hard to understand. We will die with many hard questions unanswered. But we dare not die without responding to God's promise of judgment and salvation through His Son (John 3:35-36; 5:25-29; Acts 10:38-43; 17:30-31; 1 John 4:14-15). As the perfect Son of God, Jesus didn’t deserve the punishment for sin, death (Romans 6:23). But by dying on the cross and rising from the dead, Jesus paid the penalty of sin and broke the power of sin for those who would be in Him (Romans 8:1-3). God is calling sinners to turn from their own way to follow the living Lord Jesus in repentance and faith (Luke 24:46-47). We cannot save ourselves. Only those who turn from sin and trust in the Son of God are saved from sin and eternal death. “God loved the world so much that He gave His only Son that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life. For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him. Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only Son of God” (John 3:16-18).

Historical Research on Islam and the Earliest Qur'anic Manuscripts
The newest Historical material we now have on the dating of the earliest Qur'anic Manuscripts (Mushafs) is breaking new historical ground. These findings have an impact on not only the authenticity of the earliest Qur'ans, but also on who Muhammad was, as well as the whole scope concerning how Islam emerged. This new material has just come to light in the last two years (2012 - 2014) and is proving to be a real 'game changer' for those of us engaging publicly with Islam, especially within the academic environment, where the significance of these findings will have the greatest impact.
Concolusions of this new research is summarised as follows :-
“Islam, as we know it, did not exist in the 7th century, but evolved over a period of 200-300 years” (Humphreys 1991:71,83-89)
“The Qur’an probably was not revealed to one man in 22 years, but likely evolved over a period of 50-100 years” (Rippin 1985:155;1990:3,25,60; Lester 99:44-45; Wansbrough 1977:160-163)
The history of Islam, at least from the time of the caliph Abd al-Malik (685-705 AD) and before, is a later fabrication (Cook 1983:65,
Robinson 1996:47)
These are extremely direct and damaging conclusions by the respective scholars, and no doubt our Muslim friends will reject this however the evidence is there and one must then consider the Islamic scholars research and add their comments into the mix to balance the argument. Yet when we do this it is more damaging to Islam and suddenly our Muslim friends are silenced with no answer.
Before we look at the new evidence four questions need to be asked!
Is the Qur'an eternal? (see Sura 85:22, which says so)
Was it written down complete by Uthman in 650 AD, and were four copies sent to Medina, Basra, Baghdad and Damascus by him (al Bukhari says so in Vol.6:509-510)?
Has the Qur’an changed since 650 AD (i.e. the 1989 Ibn Fahd canon)?
Do they have complete Manuscripts from the time of Uthman to prove it was complete, and that it has never changed in 1400 years (i.e. the Topkapi/Sammarkand)?
Our Muslim friends will answer yes to all these questions, yet the evidence of the quranic manuscripts say something else. Two Islamic scholars (Tayyar Altıkulaç and Prof. Dr. Ekmeleddin) have been studding the six major Quranic manuscripts over a five year period (2002 -2007) and there published works have now been translated into English (2014) and the results are somewhat damaging to Islamic.
TOPKAPI MUSHAF
(Topkapi Museum, Istanbul, Turkey) (Early – Mid 8th c.)
Prof. Dr. Ekmeleddin İhsanoğlu: (Founding Director General of IRCICA (1980-2004) & Secretary General of the Organisation of
the Islamic Conference Research Centre)
‘We have none of Uthman’s Mushafs’ (manuscripts)
‘Nor do we have any of the copies from those Mushafs’
‘These Mushafs date from the later ‘Umayyad period’
Dr. Tayyar Altıkulaç: (Leading scholar in Qur’anic studies, Ex-president of Turkish religious affairs, deputy in the Turkish parliament)
‘No serious scholarly work has been done on them’
‘These Mushafs date from the early – mid 8th cent.’
‘They are not Uthmanic, nor copies sent by him’
‘The Topkapi has 2,270 consonantal differences’
22% of the Qur’an is missing
The SAMMARQAND MANUSCRIPT (TASHKENT): (EARLY – MID 8TH C.)
Dr. Tayyar Altıkulaç: ‘It is not Uthmanic, as it dates from mid 8th c.’;
Undisciplined spelling
Different writing styles
Scribal mistakes
Copyist mistakes
Written by someone with little experience
With later additions (only goes to Sura 43) that is 66% of the Qur’an is missing
The AL HUSSEINI CAIRO MANUSCRIPT [Located: ‘al-Mashhad al-Husayni’ – Cairo, Egypt]
Dr. Tayyar Altıkulaç:
‘This is not Uthmanic’
’It is dated from early to mid 8th century’
The PARIS PETROPOLITANUS – (Early 8th c.)
Francois Deroche (Deroche 2009:172-177):
Corrections to the text
Disagrees with the Caireen Mushaf in 93 places
“Five different copyists”
“Later modified with erasures and additions”
74% of the Qur’an is missing
The MA’IL MANUSCRIPT (2165 MS, British Library) (Late 8thCentury [790 AD])
Written in an early Hijazi Script, Dated to the late 8thc.
Only goes up to Sura 43, thus it is not complete
25% of the Qur’an is missing
The SANA’A MANUSCRIPT (Located in Sana’a, Yemen; Late 7th – Early 8th Century)
Dr. Gerd Puin (1981-Present):
“Oldest parchments & papers of any Qur’anic Manuscript.”
Yet, more than half of the text is ambiguous letters which need diacritical marks for understanding.
Adding vowels helped correct mistakes.
It includes orthographical changes found in geographical tradition schools.
Many deviations are not mentioned in later literature.
SANA’A PALIMPSESTS (writing under the text):
Using Ultra-Violet light, we find a ‘Qur’anic’ script written and washed below that of the existing script (‘Script Defecto’). This
is the first evidence we have of an evolution in the Qur’anic text in one manuscript.
QUR’ANIC CONCLUSIONS
Western Scholars (Deroche, Böwering, Conrad, Peters, Stein, Shoemaker, etc…) conclude that the earliest Mushaf’s begin to appear in the 8th c.
Muslim Scholars (Prof. Dr. Ekmeleddin İhsanoğlu & Dr. Tayyar Altıkulaç) conclude that the earliest Mushaf’s begin to appear in the
8th c.
‘Islamic Awareness’ (IA) concludes there are no Uthmanic Mushafs, and that all the early Mushafs date from the 8th c., or later
Since there are NO COMPLETE MANUSCRIPTS:-
The Qur'an is NOT ETERNAL! (Despite Sura 85:22)
It was NOT COMPLETE in 650 AD (despite al Bukhari Vol.6:509510)
The Qur’an HAS CHANGED since 650 AD (despite the 1984 Ibn Fahd canon)
Thus, Muhammad had little to do with the Qur’an!
SO, WHO THEN CREATED THE QUR’AN?!!
If at all any of our Muslim friends do respond to this, take note they will change the topic and point to the Bible and miss the point been made. As a Christian we do not claim the bible is Eternal, without error or complete. Yet Islam make these claims about the Quran, we have simple accepted the Islamic tradition and chains of narration, while access was denied to the source material as noted above. Thus one must keep in mind one error, one contradiction, one change or one word missing by Quranic standards proves Islam to be false.
Thus it is extremely important for the Christian community to be ready to handle the influx of Muslim into the Christian culture in the coming years, in an honest understanding of their background, needs and proper discipleship into the Kingdom.