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this is a THEORY ONLY, i thought this up myself and have no idea if it works.

So i wanted to ask the community if anyone who was not addicted to heroin has done this, and if so did it keep them from being addicted.

The idea behind addiction is that mu opiod receptors downregulate or desensitize in response to exogenous stimulation. My thinking is that whatever happens must require some amount of time to take affect. Naloxone completely reverses all opiate receptor activation from heroin. Therefore if I inject H and get a quick rush, but then 'turn off' the rush with a subsequent dose of naloxone, would that be enough to stop me from becoming addicted and keep me from ever building up tolerance to the H.

The tolerance is key as that would tell me if it was working to keep me from being addicted (assuming the two are linked.. not necessarily true)

If anyone has done this please let me know

best case scenario would be someone being able to take heroin once a week indefinitely with no addiction potential.. minus the very real possibility that whomever did this would only think about the time that they get to take the opiates and perhaps hate the rest of their existence.
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edit-- please double check facts on your own that come from either myself or topman. I believe this is a safe and neutral request, as this thread sadly gets hijacked into a stupid squabble shortly

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Very interesting....but rememer about self incrimination rule.

interesting theory. great thread.

Last edited by gotshakes; 16-03-2011 at 16:28.
Reason: trying to keep things even

It conceivably could work.
However, I'd bet my left ball that 90% of users will go "Fuck that, i'm not stopping this"Addiction is 80% a mental thing, even with very physically addictive things like opiates (in most cases), Injecting the naloxone will require the same willpower as avoiding compulsive use, which is an enormous amount.
You ain't gunna get physically hooked really of once per week use, however everybody starts as limiting themselves to once, twice a month, i mean a week, i mean a day....
But Its a good idea, in theory.

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Good to point out the willpower needed to 'turn off' a hit one has just paid for/enjoyed.

Keep in mind that naloxone blocks allopiate receptor ligands, even endogenous opiates. Naloxone injections are typically only given during an overdose emergency or in some rare cases during a rapid detox in which the subject is put into an artificial coma. There is a reason for this. Injecting naloxone, especially during an opiate high, is likely to result in an intensely unpleasant experience. My guess is that anyone foolhardy or brave enough to try this would only do it once. If one can imagine the euphoria and rush one gets from injecting heroin, now imagine that instead of euphoria it's extreme dysphoria. You don't have to already be an addict to experience this. Naloxone is going to completely block all opiate receptors regardless of the situation.

Now a method that has met with a lot of success in preventing the buildup of tolerance is chronically dosing with mircodoses of naltrexone, but I believe that method inhibits a lot of the euphoria as well. This method is useful for those needed strong pain relief.

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Interesting.Common opinion seems to be it has NO effect on non-addicts.Any sources?

It conceivably could work.
However, I'd bet my left ball that 90% of users will go "Fuck that, i'm not stopping this"Addiction is 80% a mental thing, even with very physically addictive things like opiates (in most cases), Injecting the naloxone will require the same willpower as avoiding compulsive use, which is an enormous amount.
You ain't gunna get physically hooked really of once per week use, however everybody starts as limiting themselves to once, twice a month, i mean a week, i mean a day....
But Its a good idea, in theory.

My cat has never used opiates of any kind. In fact the only drugs he has been exposed to is marijuana (lots), and a handful of 10mg amphetamine study sessions (not recreational.

The cat really just wants to know what is so good that people will choose it over everything else in life. My cat seems strong willed but who knows really.. if he goes in planning to do it once now with the 30 min naloxone strategy, and never again until he is over 65, do you think it is a bad idea? Like will he realize how mundane life is without opiates.

basically my question is it better to know whats missing or to live in the semi 'ignorance is bliss' state

Naloxane is opiate blocker and beside danger from dosage its very dangerus to inject naloxane. This drug have a tisusue damage properies and MUST be administered IV. Other paparental administarions like sc or im can couse tissue damage and necrosis. It must be adminitered only by profesional medical stuff.

edit:
swiy idea about use of naloxone of inhibit phisical dependacy is pointless. If somebody use heroin once a week he or she will have not phisical dependacy so use of opiate blocker (it blocks receptors and not reverse anything) have not use to that goal.Naloxone block brain receptors, does not heal them or revrse opiate dependecy.

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Good info in this post. Way to point out the info about short term physical addiction

Last edited by Topman; 09-03-2011 at 17:37.
Reason: more info on theme

Naloxane is opiate blocker and beside danger from dosage its very dangerus to inject naloxane. This drug have a tisusue damage properies and MUST be administered IV. Other paparental administarions like sc or im can couse tissue damage and necrosis. It must be adminitered only by profesional medical stuff.

just like heroin.. i mean morphine.. wait it just depends on where u live. or if you know how to find a vein.. right?

wim is saying that injecting naloxone is unlikely to be more dangerous than injecting say heroin. not to say its safe, just that if someone to put there mind to it it could easily be done safely; in fact someones biggest problem would probly be finding the naloxone

I see. But I want to say something entaraly diffrent. Naloxane is lipohobic drug and has tissue destoying property and if unexpirienced user miss a shoot it can get ugly, tisue damage and necrosys.. While morphine or heroin miss a shoot, they will be fast absorbed by your body, they are lipohilyic substances.
Only wonted to say that fact.
So YES, naloxane is very dangerus,much more dangerus then heroin. Please, must understund diffrent properties and solubility of drugs before you can compare it.

@Gotshakesswim will try to educate swiy with valid arguments.
You are mistaken and mixing facts; why you are mixing Lipophobic or lipophylic properties with water solubility? That means is any substance souble in (fat) tissue or not.Water solubility has a prefix -hydro & lipid(fat) has a prefix -lipo. Both morphine and heroin as freebase are water unsouble and lipophobic or lipophylic have nothing with water solubility. Swiy is confused about these explanation, swiy have to be careful with untrue arguments.

Quote:

Gotshakes quote; you say naloxone is lipophobic.. in other words it is water soluble

So my answer is: NO - in other words Lipophobic does NOT mean that is water soluble. (Lipo)phobic or (hydro)phobic means that is Not soluble in water for hydro and NOT soluble in lipids (fat) for lipo.
swim see that swiy is very consfused and thats is so dangerus to say in open forum. Lipophobic substance tends to stay there where is injected and its not absorbed fast and organism attack that substance likey any other forgein body. On anorher hand Lipophylic substance what is fat soluble and it IS absorbed fast and does not stay at injection site. Not to mention if solution is not sterile it can became infected but thats another story.

Quote:

Gotshakes quote
The idea behind addiction is that mu opiod receptors downregulate or desensitize in response to exogenous stimulation. My thinking is that whatever happens must require some amount of time to take affect. Naloxone completely reverses all opiate receptor activation from heroin.

Above statemant is buliding tolerance and no addiction. Naloxone act like barriare between receptors and dopamine induced by morphine and does not reverse or heal any recptors.swiy idea about use of naloxone of inhibit physical dependece is pointless. If somebody use heroin once a week he or she will have not phisical dependacy so use of opiate blocker (it blocks receptors and not reverse anything) have not use to that goal.Naloxone block brain receptors, does not heal them or revrse opiate dependecy.
Anyway, swim is talkin from my taxi drivers expirience with naloxone during 2 yrs tratment with it. Naloxone only bring bariere within receptors and dopamine (i think that is a name). Tolerance appear later when this receptors slowly shoots down and user must use more drug for same effect. Consequence of activity of receptors leads to phisical dependece and health issues. So naloxone only act as a barriare beetween recepors and (dopamine-not sure is it right name) induced by heroin/morphine.

swiy insulted me without any reason to do so. Educate or read first about naloxone and injecting naloxone, and swim see thats swiy have a lot to learn.Insulting leads nowhere and only bring fight! Swiy started this thread and i really think that you do not understund my post. Morphine as injections can be admisnistered SC ot IM or IV. Naloxone are clearly stated that preferbal method of administration is IV bc very corrosive substance to tissue. Morphine injection is not dangerus to tissue, thats all what swim have said.
On every vial or ampoule is stated that naloxone have destroying tissue properties bc is highly corrosive, heroin and morphine have not tissue damage bc they are not so corrosive as naloxone- THAT IS A FACT Shortly, beside lipo-xxx properies, naloxone is highly corrosive for tissue and that is a main reasone why is more danger behind injecting naloxone!!!
Like injecting 2 ml alcohol is more dangerus then injecting heroin, and that is something similar what swim wanted to say.
swim did not mean that is not danger of injecting heroin or morphine compared to naloxone on general basis or to overall health or counsequence of using that drugs.. Naloxone have not interes as a narcotic or pleasure substance as being opiate blocker.. But diffrence exsist in danger to tissue damage at injection site from naloxone (or combo) injection,and that makes naloxone more danger then heroine or morphine. why anybody would be get insulted to that statemant?

Another fact is drug called Talwin (injection solution combo of pentazocine lactate + naloxone hcl)Qutoe from rx;Tissue Damage at Injection Sites: Severe sclerosis of the skin, subcutaneous tissues, and underlying muscle have occurred at the injection sites of patients who have received multiple doses of talwin. Constant rotation of injection sites is, therefore, essential. In addition, animal studies have demonstrated that TALWIN is tolerated less well subcutaneously than intramuscularly. (See DOSAGE AND ADMINISTRATION.)

swim just added lipophobic properties as part of discussion and not a main reason of danger of naloxone. Naloxone can couse tissue dammage if is not administered corectly and miss a vein, while heroin and morphine have not that properties. Many users would rush in hospitals with health complications if that would be true. there is many reason why one substance is corrosive and why other are not.Naloxone is very corrosive!!!
My post havee nothing with analgestic, agonist, antagonist or other activity or potency with naloxone, heroin or morphine or any other opiate.
@gotshakes Somebody gave you neg rep "makes no sense" to your post (not me) and you start to insult me, only bc you think that I stay behind that.No matter that in that post we all have to deduct what swiy have to say and neg rep points is correctly given by somebody other then me. maybe swiy experimented with marijuan while write that post.. Its just wrong to acuse me amd insult (me) without any solid arguments and ignorance.
Anyway, swim have adivice to swiy, stay on your marijuana expirience (or stop even that, its bad to your brain cell) and stay away from naloxone combinations and other ideas with it.Your post have nothing to do with theme or content of my post. Its defensive and insulting only bc neg points.We all can not agree with somebody but insulting members is forbiden or if somebody gave you neg points.I will try to say my opinions and explain it at best of my ability and if somebody have another or do not agree with me then do explain without need to insul and name calling eg idiot, clown and such. I can be wrong and we are all here to learn, and i will be first to admit that.
Naloxane can help with constipation ...I will not insult anybody, my mother taught me how to behave!
And gotshakes..will you aplogize to me for insults? You do not have to agree on mine opinions but to insult me is very low.

You know how to settle this argument folks? Provide links and evidence, articles and documents supporting what you say its worth a 1000 "your wrong and im right" type statements.
Either put up or shut up.

gotta agree here in principle. Can anyone address the corrosive/toxicity issue with reputable sources? I have attached the Naloxone HCL 0.4 mg/mL injection, USP 1mL Single Dose Ampule patient information sheet as a pdf - nowhere does it state that Naloxone is anything that can be interpreted as "corrosive" so I would appreciate a source link for that claim if possible? Thanks.

With regard to adverse effects, the insert states:Skin and Subcutaneous Tissue Disorders: nonspecific injection site reactions, sweating.
I would have expected any indications of corrosiveness to be noted there? Nowhere on any ampule label that I've ever seen does it say "corrosive" either

Naloxone has been noted in trials to be non-teratogenic (not to cause malformation of developing fetuses) at doses up to 10mg per day, so the idea that it is corrosive seems pretty unlikely - BUT I could be incorrect, so perhaps somebody could provide sources stating otherwise and clear that bit up for me?

ETA: you know, I like the general idea of the OP and think it's pretty creative but have to agree with others who have already stated valid reasons why it most likely wouldn't work.

Do not stuck with term corrosive. I have allready quted text from combo injections containing naloxone. Just to ad;. naloxone is not vasicant drug, those drugs are forbiden to inject and have term corrosive in writen info.Its like methaphetamine or cocaine - lipophobic substance what if misses vein stay long where is injected and can couse tisse damage as a consequence.And not only bc of that. If substance is not absorbed fast to your body after can be complications due that fact. Substance itself while only stay in one place poses danger to injection site,swealing, redness, irritation and if not sterile abcess and even necrosys.In other hand with heroin is not so due the fact (and not only that) being fast absorbed by body. I am not claiming that heroin poses not danger, or that it no poses danger of becoming infected - that is with all drugs with parerental use. Only simple fact that ALL lipophobic substance, no matter for what is used for, poses danger of tissue damage bc is not absorbed fast enough.
As another argument I can mention methadone. Nowhere is clearly stated that methadone is corrosive but from users who inject methadone its showing very corrosive properities to vein and tissue even methadone is lipophylic. So lipo-x properies is not only reason of that, and I do not have better term of corrosive.
Even if all of that, naloxone injection expirenced user are very low, its not like other opiate users who knows all the facts from they own experience and others. So that topic is naloxone dangerus or not is not so important.I know that I have read and to porsute it more is also pointless. but behind idea injecting naloxone of stoping addiction is useless. I surely will not inject naloxone to stop addiction, only in life threating situations and only by profesionals.
You started personal attack(post #10 10-3) as response fro my post #9 (03-03). So you waited 4 days and repliyed with insults only bc somebody gave you neg rep at date 07.07. Its truly transparent and argumentative from you. I did not insult you or even duscused about heroin being stronger then morphine. Your statemant that lipoxxx properties is only for that is false. Another thing is express yourself with proper terminology. Fat solubility have (lipo prefix) and water solubility have hydro prefix - do not miy that two terms I wander why you reciving responses.

Naloxone has been noted in trials to be non-teratogenic (not to cause malformation of developing fetuses) at doses up to 10mg per day, so the idea that it is corrosive seems pretty unlikely - BUT I could be incorrect, so perhaps somebody could provide sources stating otherwise and clear that bit up for me?

While citric acid is probably non-teratogenic (to a point, at least - and probably a large one, like with naloxone), that wouldn't have diddly-squat to do with the fact that it's damaging to tissues should it be injected IM or SC.

Just sayin', is all.

I think there's a hang-up on the word used ("corrosive"), but that might be down to a language barrier. It would seem that the statement trying to be made here is: naloxone needs to be IV'd because otherwise it can be extra-destructive to the tissues involved in a "missed"/intramuscular/subcutaneous injection; this isn't the case with Heroin, which can be used IM & SC in addition to IV - a missed shot will be absorbed with far less problems than it would be in the case of naloxone.

Now, having said that...I have seen instructions stating that Narcan *can* be administered via IV *OR* IM (and as I stated above, it's now also available in a nasal atomiser). Do they just say that naloxone can be administered via IM because it can be damn hard to find a vein on an overdosed Heroin addict & they're more concerned about saving the life, as opposed to the damage that can occur from an IM shot? (like I said, better alive w/tissue damage than dead w/no hope) I don't know.

TL;DR cus of all the bullshit on that last page. I'm surprised a mod hasn't came and cleaned all that shit up.

naloxone is pretty short acting so it'll wear off before the heroin does. If you inject the dope and shoot the naloxone 30 min later, you'll be sobered up for maybe an hour but that's gonna wear off and you're still going to get high from the remaining dope in your system. That's why even with the narcan kits they give at needle exchanged, you still gotta get the person to a hospital because the initial narcan will wear off and they can still die.

So I don't think this will do anything to keep you from getting addicted. Plus, no way is someone chilling on a good shot gonna ruin it by shooting narcan. You might think so before you get your hit but afterwards, you're going to be feeling too good to want to end it.

The only 100% surefire way not to get addicted to heroin is to not use it in the first place. If you are worried about becoming addicted to it, you should not do it. Everyone that does it for the first time should keep in mind that there is a real good chance they will end up addicted to it.

MovingPictures added 5 Minutes and 44 Seconds later...

Lol, I love how people come on here saying they want to try heroin but they have a sure way that they won't get addicted. Every fucking junkie said the same exact shit. "I won't get hooked". We all fucking said that shit. I dunno what makes all of us think that we're so special and different from everyone else when we first start using.

I think anyone that wants to use dope should spend about a week living with a junkie to see what it's really like. And I'm not talking about a rich junkie who can afford as much as they want. I mean a down and out junkie that wakes up sick every morning and has to go out and hustle to get money for a bag day in and day out. See how much fun it is and then decided if you want to get into dope.

While citric acid is probably non-teratogenic (to a point, at least - and probably a large one, like with naloxone), that wouldn't have diddly-squat to do with the fact that it's damaging to tissues should it be injected IM or SC.

Just sayin', is all.

I think there's a hang-up on the word used ("corrosive"), but that might be down to a language barrier. It would seem that the statement trying to be made here is: naloxone needs to be IV'd because otherwise it can be extra-destructive to the tissues involved in a "missed"/intramuscular/subcutaneous injection; this isn't the case with Heroin, which can be used IM & SC in addition to IV - a missed shot will be absorbed with far less problems than it would be in the case of naloxone. <snip>
~Kailey

True, true...and hang up or not I still felt it very important to clarify for other readers since to state that naloxone is 'corrosive' could potentially scare the crap out of somebody who may read that in future and hesitate to administer what could be a life saving shot, yes? As stated, better to risk an infection/abscess etc than die!
Language barrier or no, there is power in words like that which can have unforeseen consequences....harm reduction, innit?

Also just to clarify my point about teratogenicity and corrosive properties - as there is a strong correlation between the two properties in many substances in general, I was merely drawing overall attention to that fact
On saying that, correlation and causation aren't the same, so I was hoping somebody could produce evidence to counter

Anyway, back on topic, in reply to topmans comment :

Quote:

Is there a method/drug what would truely heal that closed receptors,no matter if opite is used every day, then after is no longer need to addition of opiate for same effect?

Excellent question, restoring opiate receptors to pre-addiction/dependency levels would certainly make life easier for an awful lot of people! Sadly, as far as I know, the short answer is no, not currently....?

Maybe some swimmer could explain to all of us exact mehanism in brain receptors so we can disscuss it further..
As part of catseye question of evidence, its not only naloxone - ALL lipophobic substances can couse tissue damage bc they stay long at site and body regards that as forgein body, pus is formed, swealing, reddnes, hard and discolor area on skin, screlosys, scares..etc..etc..
Example is medicene called interferon (help with hepatitis c) - it have tissue damage properties, but that side effect is ignored when dealing with hepatitis c.
I will reapeat, do not mix that with vesicants. That substance destroy tissue when in contact - they also are not given by injections (only in special ocasions).
short list of vesicants:diazepam
alcohol
digoxin
propylene glycol (some tablets contain this)

A clear (if somewhat dated) explanation of opiate receptor mechanism is HERE. Obviously there have been advances, but it gives a nice history and explanation. Interestingly, radioactive naloxone played a huge part in the mapping and understanding of opiate receptors.
The mu and delta receptor subgroups are pretty well researched, less is known about kappa and epsilon. I think general discussion of opiate receptors can be inferred from the original post, but perhaps we are getting off topic with that so I'll leave it there

hello; i did that stupid thing 2 time the fist time after havind methadone, second after heroin,the only thing you will get is an HORRIBLE cold turkey you will never forget and be take to the hospital...you can die from this by heart attack, aniway imagine the worst cold turkey coming in one second in your body!!!! never do it!!!!

bad idea horrible wd's and after 30 minutes you feel the rush and euphoria, so if you know the feeling, just stopping it wont stop you from wanting it again!...example: i never have tried pcp so i dont know jack about it..if i tried it i would know the deal with it..and maybe get addicted..but since i never tried it i dont know if i would or not (get addicted). its all about the feelings you experirnce on the drug that decide whether or not you will get addicted, like it a lot yep you will be hoked but hate it? not likely to be hooked...your idea makes as much sense as pulling out before ejaculation so you dont fall in love with the girl...not bein rude..jus sayin

gotshakes: what do you need help with? As a Mercury Member, your posting access is now restricted, but so is your PM access (it's very low, like 10 msg storage maximum). I assume your Mercury Member status is due to negative reputation points received in this thread in response to posts that have since been deleted.

You can read more about Mercury Membership status by clicking on this link. You may also have infractions, which you can read more about by clicking here. I don't think having infractions affects your ability to post on the forum (it's getting negative rep points that changes your status to Mercury & that limits your posting 'rights'), unless you continue to get infractions to the point where your account gets banned (either temporarily or permanently).

Or did you need help with something else altogether?

As a Newbie, you only can send a PM once an hour; I don't know if that same kind of limitation is in place for Mercury Members, so I figured I'd answer you here just in case.