I've been brewing for almost 20 years. I've traveled to Germany, Belgium, UK, Czech Republic, and had a lot of fine brews. I've had plenty of the celebrity beers that are quite popular now as well such as Heady Topper, Pliny, Kate the Great, Westy 12, and next weekend I will be at Ebeneezer's in Maine to have some Black Albert. And I like Corona. Not only that, but Corona Light with a lime in it.

Yea, they just substituted distillation for an alternate process that achieves the same thing.

which has been used for 100 years to make Eisbocks. Yes in a way it's distilling but it's not some sort of crazy new trick for beers.

...sure, but what makes a high ABV impressive in beer is that it occurs by natural fermentation. Once you start applying technology to concentrate the alcohol, there's really no trick whatsoever to making the ABV as high as you please. At that point, 65% becomes about as impressive as 3% -- or 99%. All are quite possible with the right methods (though distilling past the azeotrope would require methods beyond simple distillation).

calm like a bomb:Corvus: Yeah I heard about New Belgium. They are one of my favorite breweries.

I attended a tasting dinner with one of their brewers last year. They seemed really excited to be moving to the area. And I agree- I like many of their products, although I cannot drink Fat Tire.

I think Fat Tire is ok. Fat Tire and Sierra Nevada are kind of my "beers I'll bring to something because most people don't get craft beer and I need to bring a good amount of beer" beer. When I am out drinking beer I wont get one but if it's like a picnic or camping or something I might bring some to fill out the beer and in addition bring some better beers.

ALso they used to be the few craft beers you could get in cans (when I camp many places have "no glass" rules) but now you can get much more craft beer in cans but choices are still limited.

I've been brewing for almost 20 years. I've traveled to Germany, Belgium, UK, Czech Republic, and had a lot of fine brews. I've had plenty of the celebrity beers that are quite popular now as well such as Heady Topper, Pliny, Kate the Great, Westy 12, and next weekend I will be at Ebeneezer's in Maine to have some Black Albert. And I like Corona. Not only that, but Corona Light with a lime in it.

Hey - don't get me wrong. I am glad there are watered down beers out there for you girls. Drink up, Missy.

Yea, they just substituted distillation for an alternate process that achieves the same thing.

which has been used for 100 years to make Eisbocks. Yes in a way it's distilling but it's not some sort of crazy new trick for beers.

...sure, but what makes a high ABV impressive in beer is that it occurs by natural fermentation. Once you start applying technology to concentrate the alcohol, there's really no trick whatsoever to making the ABV as high as you please. At that point, 65% becomes about as impressive as 3% -- or 99%. All are quite possible with the right methods (though distilling past the azeotrope would require methods beyond simple distillation).

/chemical engineer

What's the heartiest yeast? Is there one that can survive past 15% ABV or so?

jshine:Yea, they just substituted distillation for an alternate process that achieves the same thing.

Their process, as described in the article, is the same used to create Eisbocks, which certainly are beer:

From Wikipedia: Eisbock is a traditional specialty beer of the Kulmbach district of Germany that is made by partially freezing a doppelbock and removing the water ice to concentrate the flavour and alcohol content, which ranges from 9% to 13% by volume. It is clear, with a colour ranging from deep copper to dark brown in colour, often with ruby highlights. Although it can pour with a thin off-white head, head retention is frequently impaired by the higher alcohol content. The aroma is intense, with no hop presence, but frequently can contain fruity notes, especially of prunes, raisins, and plums. Mouthfeel is full and smooth, with significant alcohol, although this should not be hot or sharp.

I highlighted that last part. There is NO WAY a 65% beer will not taste "hot." Plenty of extremely experienced and talented brewers have a difficult time rounding out the profiles of 10% beers. Someone upthread mentioned it, but this is a gimmick. It's akin to hot-sauce contests where flavor, balance and character are completely abandoned in favor of one sole aspect which is used to beat you over the head. This isn't beer. It's a bastardization.

jshine:...sure, but what makes a high ABV impressive in beer is that it occurs by natural fermentation. Once you start applying technology to concentrate the alcohol, there's really no trick whatsoever to making the ABV as high as you please. At that point, 65% becomes about as impressive as 3% -- or 99%. All are quite possible with the right methods (though distilling past the azeotrope would require methods beyond simple distillation).

Yes there is. It becomes harder and harder to extract water as you go (just like heat distilling).

If you have a method that you can turn a dial and set how much water you extract from a mash without extracting the other elements in one simple process please tell me because you would make millions in distilling. Because no one else in the distilling business seems to be aware of this.

I would say column distillation is probably the most exact method used and it's still a far cry from what you are saying can be done. And this process is a lot less exact then that.

uber humper:What's the heartiest yeast? Is there one that can survive past 15% ABV or so?

Can't get to brewing yeast sites here at work (filtered connections). But if you go to "white labs" I think they have a section of high tolerance yeasts that will tell you what they're good up to. There's a Belgian yeast I've used to create some really nice strong darks (quads) slightly over 12% that had no troubles.

Yea, they just substituted distillation for an alternate process that achieves the same thing.

which has been used for 100 years to make Eisbocks. Yes in a way it's distilling but it's not some sort of crazy new trick for beers.

...sure, but what makes a high ABV impressive in beer is that it occurs by natural fermentation. Once you start applying technology to concentrate the alcohol, there's really no trick whatsoever to making the ABV as high as you please. At that point, 65% becomes about as impressive as 3% -- or 99%. All are quite possible with the right methods (though distilling past the azeotrope would require methods beyond simple distillation).

/chemical engineer

What's the heartiest yeast? Is there one that can survive past 15% ABV or so?

I don't know what the record is off the top of my head, but its an area of active research (due largely to bio-ethanol fuel production -- the stronger the initial "brew", the less energy has to be put into distillation later on, making the whole process more economical).

Are there yeasts that can go past 15% ABV? Oh yes, but fermentation probably gets much slower as ABV gets higher. Also, whether or not such yeasts are commercial available (or are "trade secrets") is also questionable.

WinoRhino:uber humper: What's the heartiest yeast? Is there one that can survive past 15% ABV or so?

Can't get to brewing yeast sites here at work (filtered connections). But if you go to "white labs" I think they have a section of high tolerance yeasts that will tell you what they're good up to. There's a Belgian yeast I've used to create some really nice strong darks (quads) slightly over 12% that had no troubles.

White labs is cool they have their own tasting room too so you can try beers made with different yeast.

You wouldn't extract the water from the mash in this case. Not even the wort. You're extracting it from the fermented beer and essentially making a concentrate.Just keep freezing and removing ice until all you're left with is grain flavored ethanol and some water to dilute.

Corvus:If you have a method that you can turn a dial and set how much water you extract from a mash without extracting the other elements in one simple process please tell me because you would make millions in distilling.

There *is* a method where you can just "turn a dial" and adjust the separation -- its the number of trays ("equilibrium stages") you put in your column. ...but its not my method -- its been well known to chemical engineers for a century.

/...unfortunately, I'm not making millions, but doing ok nevertheless//this probably would seem almost "magical" compared to the kind of things that are used in some back-woods still, but to industry its old news

Corvus:calm like a bomb: The few times I've looked for 120min, I couldn't find it. I'm not that big on IPAs, so it hasn't really been a quest for me. Also, ditto Utopias- asked for it for Christmas last year, none could be found.

120 min is very hard to find. Utopias shouldn't be that bad. They should have it (or can get it) at a high end liquor store or bottle store that knows anything craft beer.

It is? I've had five myself this year (I don't get them often as they are $10/each), Chicagoland area.

hobnail:Well, subby, it doesn't really matter how strong it is, if it hasn't had any contact with oak. Whisky is clearly defined as having to be stored in some sort of oak container-- in Scotland the requirement is 3 years minimum, whereas the US allows a "touch-and-go" to be called whisky, although not straight whisky.

Sounds like it's not really beer, either. But it sure as hell ain't whisky.

stovepipe:hobnail: Well, subby, it doesn't really matter how strong it is, if it hasn't had any contact with oak. Whisky is clearly defined as having to be stored in some sort of oak container-- in Scotland the requirement is 3 years minimum, whereas the US allows a "touch-and-go" to be called whisky, although not straight whisky.

Sounds like it's not really beer, either. But it sure as hell ain't whisky.

Begs to differ

Marin "Popcorn" Sutton RIP. If you haven't read it, "Chasing the White Dog" by Max Watman has a chapter dedicated to his life and complicated public image.

/legal in Tennessee//better than any of that aged crap

Young corn and rye whiskey is available in MD/VA too as long as it's legally distilled. Some of it is really strong (120+ proof). Knocks you back the first time if you're not used to it. Haven't seen Sutton's brand since many stores just stock the local VA stuff.

I haven't yet. I almost dropped the cash on a bottle when I saw it at the store, but I just can't do it. Back in the day, Sam Adams used to make a Triple Bock... not sure they do any longer. It came in a small blue bottle:

It was pretty good and I'd get it once in a while. I think they just carried that same principal forward so it would be similar, only more-so. I just don't think it would be worth the price. I find a lot of "celebrity beers" aren't. I think the only one I've had that lives up to the hype so far is Westvleteren 12. But if someone else buys a Utopia, there's no way I'd turn down a sample.

uber humper:Maybe you can answer this for me: I once heard that Champagne has smaller bubbles than other sparkling wine. If that's true, why is it? It's possible to engineer smaller bubbles?

Definitely asking the wrong guy. Unlike what my name implies, I'm not into wine. But I can tell you that the longer you let beer condition in the bottle for carbonation the finer the bubbles will be. Don't quote me, but I believe it has to do with the density of dissolved CO2. More time, more CO2, leading to smaller bubbles because more air comes out of solution when the pressure is released.

WinoRhino:uber humper: Maybe you can answer this for me: I once heard that Champagne has smaller bubbles than other sparkling wine. If that's true, why is it? It's possible to engineer smaller bubbles?

Definitely asking the wrong guy. Unlike what my name implies, I'm not into wine. But I can tell you that the longer you let beer condition in the bottle for carbonation the finer the bubbles will be. Don't quote me, but I believe it has to do with the density of dissolved CO2. More time, more CO2, leading to smaller bubbles because more air comes out of solution when the pressure is released.

That's what I was looking for. Beer or wine, the chemistry ~ is the same.

uber humper: Maybe you can answer this for me: I once heard that Champagne has smaller bubbles than other sparkling wine. If that's true, why is it? It's possible to engineer smaller bubbles?

Definitely asking the wrong guy. Unlike what my name implies, I'm not into wine. But I can tell you that the longer you let beer condition in the bottle for carbonation the finer the bubbles will be. Don't quote me, but I believe it has to do with the density of dissolved CO2. More time, more CO2, leading to smaller bubbles because more air comes out of solution when the pressure is released.

Corvus:Private_Citizen: /I'm partial to Elijah Craig 18yo, but it's sold out world wide right now. I do have some barrel strength I bought when I was at HH.

How do you prefer to drink that?

Normally I do neat or maybe a few drops of "branch"

This is one of my favs:

Auchentoshan Three Wood

So is this:

Yamazaki These Japanese Whisky is done like a scotch.

I like a pc of ice, but every once in a while, I drink it neat. BTW, the abomination in TFA has almost the same ABV as barrel strength Bourbon. I've drank (sipped) barrel strength neat, and it's good that way, but you do "feel the burn".

I'll probably hunt down your Japanese recommendation - I've been hearing for years about them trying to replicate Scotch, so I want to see (taste) the results.

You wouldn't extract the water from the mash in this case. Not even the wort. You're extracting it from the fermented beer and essentially making a concentrate.Just keep freezing and removing ice until all you're left with is grain flavored ethanol and some water to dilute.

Right. Which is not just simple easy, which is actually a process that is not trivial. No there are other things then water and ethanol in that, you saying that really shows a lack of understanding of the process.

Have a look at Karnal's link above. Turns out it's exactly the opposite of what I proposed. Less CO2 = fine bubbles. But they suggest lowering the priming sugar to achieve this, and I guess time has no real effect. Interesting stuff.

uber humper: Maybe you can answer this for me: I once heard that Champagne has smaller bubbles than other sparkling wine. If that's true, why is it? It's possible to engineer smaller bubbles?

Definitely asking the wrong guy. Unlike what my name implies, I'm not into wine. But I can tell you that the longer you let beer condition in the bottle for carbonation the finer the bubbles will be. Don't quote me, but I believe it has to do with the density of dissolved CO2. More time, more CO2, leading to smaller bubbles because more air comes out of solution when the pressure is released.

Corvus:Right. Which is not just simple easy, which is actually a process that is not trivial. No there are other things then water and ethanol in that, you saying that really shows a lack of understanding of the process.

Now, now... I was just noting it wasn't being done during the mash, and I wasn't trying to call you out on anything. And you're right, I don't understand the process-- I haven't done an Eisbock before or distillation ever.

WinoRhino:Corvus: Right. Which is not just simple easy, which is actually a process that is not trivial. No there are other things then water and ethanol in that, you saying that really shows a lack of understanding of the process.

Now, now... I was just noting it wasn't being done during the mash, and I wasn't trying to call you out on anything. And you're right, I don't understand the process-- I haven't done an Eisbock before or distillation ever.

In distillation in you need to cut the "foreshots" which is the methanol and other impurities. In beer you don't care about removing it. Which might be bad for some of these high alcohol beers like this one because these would concentrate. So there are a lot of different things going on. And the problem is these boiling points/freezing points are not exact, they bleed over each other. Which is why often people need to distill multiple times. If it was clear cut they could just do it once.

My point is it's a bit trickier than you might think at least to come up with a quality product because there is some art to where these cuts are made and even how exacting your process is just like in fermentation.

spacelord321:WhippingBoy: mortimer_ford: WhippingBoy: I used to be in to craft beer. But now, things have gotten so "extreme" it's absolutely absurd, so I've stopped supporting craft breweries.

- If I want a good beer, I'll make it myself- If I buy beer, from now on it's PBR or Old Milwaukee (or the cheapest macro brew then have on tap)

/way to ruin it for everyone, jerks!

There's still good micro brews out there. Just stay away from the stuff named after sexual innuendos.

I realize that there's excellent micros out there. I just refuse to support an industry that's in the process of switching from making good beer to making gimmicks or yet another IPA. Where before it was quality, now marketing and bullshiat are now starting to dominate the craft beer industry.

Farking hipsters ruin everything.

Breweries make those beers because people buy them.

And i wouldn't neccesarily blame the hipsters. The craft segment as a whole is surging. And whenever there is a buck to be made, people are going to jump on the band wagon.

I see the current trend going like it did before. About five years of excitment, you get a bunch of marketing folks jumping in the biz, a lot of ,mediocre beer with funny names hitting the market. General consumer backlash and everything calming down again, with a few good brands surviving the cull

Is this a repeat of 1998? Time will tell.

Btw, I just sent our first shipment of Legend to Maryland. We will innitially be available in the greater Baltimore metro area.Prost!

stovepipe:hobnail: Well, subby, it doesn't really matter how strong it is, if it hasn't had any contact with oak. Whisky is clearly defined as having to be stored in some sort of oak container-- in Scotland the requirement is 3 years minimum, whereas the US allows a "touch-and-go" to be called whisky, although not straight whisky.

Sounds like it's not really beer, either. But it sure as hell ain't whisky.

Begs to differ

[oi50.tinypic.com image 400x266]

[oi46.tinypic.com image 300x169]

/legal in Tennessee//better than any of that aged crap

Corn whiskey, which I assume that shiat to be, is the exception to the aging rule. Corn whiskey must be distilled from a mash of at least 80% corn and if aged at all, must be stored in used barrels or uncharred new barrels.

I have drank a bottle of Tactical Nuclear Penguin (TNP). Not really enjoyable. Being freeze distilled it doesn't clean up like standard distilled spirits do. If anyone remembers, there was a scotch named Loch Du. Super smokey, it was called the bongwater of scotch. I enjoyed Lock Du mixed with soda water. I did not enjoy TNP.

I have a bottle of Sink the Bismark in the back closet. I doubt it is aging much. Maybe some oxidation will help.

Current favorite beer is Little Sumthin' Wild. I wish Lagunitas would convert it to unlimited release liek Little Sumthin' Sumthin'.

Yea, they just substituted distillation for an alternate process that achieves the same thing.

which has been used for 100 years to make Eisbocks. Yes in a way it's distilling but it's not some sort of crazy new trick for beers.

...sure, but what makes a high ABV impressive in beer is that it occurs by natural fermentation. Once you start applying technology to concentrate the alcohol, there's really no trick whatsoever to making the ABV as high as you please. At that point, 65% becomes about as impressive as 3% -- or 99%. All are quite possible with the right methods (though distilling past the azeotrope would require methods beyond simple distillation).

/chemical engineer

What's the heartiest yeast? Is there one that can survive past 15% ABV or so?

I don't know what the record is off the top of my head, but its an area of active research (due largely to bio-ethanol fuel production -- the stronger the initial "brew", the less energy has to be put into distillation later on, making the whole process more economical).

Are there yeasts that can go past 15% ABV? Oh yes, but fermentation probably gets much slower as ABV gets higher. Also, whether or not such yeasts are commercial available (or are "trade secrets") is also questionable.

I don't know about that. A lot of the high gravity brews I can think of are bottle conditioned, in which case you can often culture the yeast right out of the bottle you buy.