Did you hear about the retired proctologist? He spent 40 years saying "what's a place like this doing in a girl like you?"

23 L A T E S T R E P L I E S (Newest First)

Alex116

Posted - 08/15/2013 : 13:46:59

quote:Originally posted by Beans15

Really?? Got any proof of that Alex?? Any news stories or anything else?? Are you referring to the disgruntled former employee who tried to be a whistle blower on banned substances found in cold medication??

If so, you go me. Carl Lewis got caught taking cough medicine.

But I will completely disagree that Lewis has ever admitted to taking anything. He NEVER has admitted to taking anything.

Ottawa, the best coached team in the NHL, with MVP like players such as Chris Neil, will win the Cup in 2013!

Careful Beans. Re-read my post, then yours, and realize that I made it clear that be hasn't admitted to taking PEDs but did fail tests (plural) for banned substances which allegedly could have been masking agents for other more serious banned substances such as anabolic steroids. Here is an old article that I got my info from.......and yes, of course Lewis would blame a cough remedy or herbal supement! Don't they all???

Posted - 08/15/2013 : 11:43:23 Really?? Got any proof of that Alex?? Any news stories or anything else?? Are you referring to the disgruntled former employee who tried to be a whistle blower on banned substances found in cold medication??

If so, you go me. Carl Lewis got caught taking cough medicine.

But I will completely disagree that Lewis has ever admitted to taking anything. He NEVER has admitted to taking anything.

Ottawa, the best coached team in the NHL, with MVP like players such as Chris Neil, will win the Cup in 2013!

Alex116

Posted - 08/15/2013 : 09:08:43

quote:Originally posted by Beans15

Also, Carl Lewis, for one, has never tested positive nor admitted to doing any PED's. There was one other guy that has held strong that he didn't do anything and has never tested positive. Can't remember his name but he was on the 30 for 30 documentary. The others that tested positive we all after that race. So you cannot say that all of those guys were on something during the race. You just can't.

I'm not sure he's ever admitted to PED use, but Carl Lewis did in fact fail more than one drug test including right before the 88 Seoul Olympics. These tests were for banned substances and are alleged to have been "masking agents" for PED's. This was at the US Olympic trials two months prior to the Seoul games and was covered up by the USOC. Bottom line is, not only should Lewis have been banned from those games, he has outright admitted to testing positive for banned substances!

Beans15

Posted - 08/15/2013 : 09:08:01 Completely agree Joshua. I said in previous posts that I think Bettman has stayed behind failing franchises for too long. He will go to the wall to keep a franchise where it is.

With that, we can't applaud him for his behaviour when we agree with it (Calgary/Edmonton in the mid-90's) and chastise him when we disagree with it (Phoenix).

He's nothing if he isn't consistent.

Ottawa, the best coached team in the NHL, with MVP like players such as Chris Neil, will win the Cup in 2013!

JOSHUACANADA

Posted - 08/14/2013 : 15:51:19 Corporate money funds 50% of the league, I'll agree with that. Your right about Glendale, being the big loser's in regards to money because of the Coyotes to the tune of 10's of Millions per year. I did a search and the City agreed to pick up the tab while the NHL took control of the franchise. Seems like a sweet deal for the NHL, while they maintained control and spent the taxpayers dollar for not coming to see the games. They then sell the franchise for a huge profit to a new owner and walk away clean. But at the end of the day, the NHL has made someone, the tax payers in this case, lose Millions of dollars and owning the franchise has lost both Moyers and Gretzky millions. You really wanna credit Bettman and BOG with all the good in the state of the NHL, you have to give them the bad credit here too, no matter who lost money in this instance.

"I now realise that the Toronto Maple Leafs, Canada's finest hockey team, is better than the Ottawa Senators - and always will be. PS - LOVE that Dion Phaneuf! "

Beans15

Posted - 08/14/2013 : 12:27:28 Sure, but corporate money funds the league. Has for the past 20 yrs. Fan money is only about 50% revenue. There other 1/2 comes from local and national sponsors, TV deals, suites, arena names, municipal funding structures, etc.

And like I said, look at the latest Forbes list for annual income and see what those numbers look like with an extra $10 million in the coffers of each team with the drop in salary cap.

Finally, the NHL didn't lose money in Phoenix. The City of Glendale lost money. Fact.

Ottawa, the best coached team in the NHL, with MVP like players such as Chris Neil, will win the Cup in 2013!

JOSHUACANADA

Posted - 08/14/2013 : 11:20:21 Growth in attendance in the Southern states, ok. Kudo's to the league for annually losing $10-30 million to build a fan base in a building that couldn't attract 10000 fans a game with free tickets with a KFC bucket in Pheonix/Glendale. LA has been around long enough to see sellouts and still had years they financially struggled, same with Anaheim. Hard not to sell out in Dallas, with prior success and $ and population, yet the franchise still struggles financially today. Atlanta wasn't a success story, neither is Tampa, Florida, Nashville and Carolina, which still struggle with attendance numbers even though they have great talent on there rosters.

Attendance numbers have gone up but how many actual fans were in the seats. You can build a bigger stadium, which seats more and corporate sales will inflate the numbers, but pan the cameras during the games and you will see the real story. Fans in seats sell merch and by beer.

"I now realise that the Toronto Maple Leafs, Canada's finest hockey team, is better than the Ottawa Senators - and always will be. PS - LOVE that Dion Phaneuf! "

Beans15

Posted - 08/14/2013 : 10:59:28 Hmm. I think we might be talking about too different things. My question was about increased attendance, which has been across the board and not just in Canada. Most Canadian teams have sold out for years so the increase in attendence is south of the border.

And you are correct that under the last CBA, 15 teams in the NHL were money losers. This season will tell the tale of what the new CBA has brought but if all things are equal, the drop in the salary cap should make that closer to 25ish teams making money.

Who was the one that fought the players for that???

You can wave the flag on the Canadian teams as much as you like, the fact of the matter is the success of the Canadian teams has been pretty consistent for the past 10-15 years. Growth in the NHL in that time is south of the border and it's not just the 3 teams in California.

Ottawa, the best coached team in the NHL, with MVP like players such as Chris Neil, will win the Cup in 2013!

JOSHUACANADA

Posted - 08/14/2013 : 10:40:55 What I am saying by my last statement is the NHL North has succeeded in spite of the mismanagement that is the southern expansion. Bettman and BOG being the driving force behind the Southern expansion. I don't want to heap praise on a person for poor management, when like you said he is the ugly Vanna White of a poor financially position 15 out of 30 franchise league. Great, a whole lot of surfers and whatnots now play hockey, but the cost has been detrimental to the success of the league.

"I now realise that the Toronto Maple Leafs, Canada's finest hockey team, is better than the Ottawa Senators - and always will be. PS - LOVE that Dion Phaneuf! "

JOSHUACANADA

Posted - 08/14/2013 : 10:35:17 Ovie, Crosby, Malkin, Hall, Tavares, the Canadian dollar and the fact that nobody north of the 48 cares whether hockey succeeds in the south west, as long as the BOG don't try and steal another franchise from Canada. Hockey North is the cash cow that has made the NHL strong in spite of happenings in the weaker markets.

This is not a bash on the strong east franchises, but there are as many success stories in the East, as failures. If it were not for the Crosby, Malkin and recent Cup win in Pittsburg most people would remember clearly this team was in trouble too, just like New Jersey is now. NYI are a perennial low payroll cap, annual revenue loss team and look on the upswing with new ownership/location, but could easily be back in the same position soon. Tampa, Florida, Columbus, Minnesota and Nashville all in the lower income bracket of the league, with a few of which the subject of recent relocation talk

Hockey in California is stronger now due to recent Cup wins in Anaheim and LA, with a natural rivalry with San Jose, but had floundered there the last decade prior to the cup wins when Gretzky retired. Hell when he retired the league tried to double dip on Gretzky by making him part owner of the Coyotes and look how that turned out. Dallas, even being a somewhat recent cup winner is on weak financial position. Colorado even with a good fan base and past success in a very similar situation.

You take the top 10 teams away and the NHL is in a very poor position. You might have an increase in fan base now in the lower 48, but 1 could argue the revenue would be greater if they focused primarily in markets were hockey sells now and allow games to be played on rare occasions (preseason or otherwise) in non traditional markets.

"I now realise that the Toronto Maple Leafs, Canada's finest hockey team, is better than the Ottawa Senators - and always will be. PS - LOVE that Dion Phaneuf! "

Beans15

Posted - 08/14/2013 : 10:06:11 Joshua, I don't argue that the big name players carries the league in the 90's however, what do you attribute the growth in the game in the past 10 years?? Not really any new teams, still the same super star players. Why has the NHL been able to no only weather the storm of 2 lock outs in the past decade but also come out of those lockouts with increased attendance?? Well, at least one lock out with increased attendance. We don't know the impact of the latest lockout.

Ottawa, the best coached team in the NHL, with MVP like players such as Chris Neil, will win the Cup in 2013!

JOSHUACANADA

Posted - 08/13/2013 : 16:56:32 I am not against the statement that during Bettman's career as the NHL commissionaire the sport has seen incredible growth. I just don't like putting his name up as the main reason for the growth. I wouldn't even agree that the Board of Governor's are the reason. I might give 50% of the credit to Bettman/BOG. The other 50% would go to players like Lemieux and Gretzky who rose the sport in poor markets to give credibility to the sport prior to Bettman's tenure. If you look at the huge growth of the sport in California, which now has more teams than Ontario, this is a direct result of a player playing in a market creating a fan base prior to Bettmans arrival. You could say the sport seen growth in spite of Bettman and the BOG.

As for Bettman/BOG response to PED's, I am totally against the fans who wish to put PED and NHL players on trial. I think the sport of Baseball and Track and Field have been ruined by the witchhunt that has gone on since the 1980's. I understand there are harmful effects because of these performance enhancing drugs, but the witchhunt has been worse for the game or sport, more than the accomplishments because of the PED's. No doubt there are PED in the NHL, likely every locker room, but not every athlete. It was reported I believe in 1992 Oylmpics that a hockey player was ineligible to play in a Olympic Tournament because he took Cold FX. Apparently Cold FX was a banned substance for the Olympics at that time. Do I believe blood doping, HGH and Steroids while training are prevalent in 80% of athletes in the NHL, no. But there are hundreds, upon hundreds of medical procedures, medication and treatments that are being performed and administered now, which have taken people beyond what athletes were capable of doing mere decades ago. Hell, 25 years ago Gatorade wasn't common, let alone a 5 hour energy drink, which have huge impact on an athletes in game performance.

Yet records in the NHL have stood for 30 years, when drugs like cocaine were very common in professional athletes. I don't understand why Cold FX is a banned substance and fans of a sport would do a witch hunt now, disregarding a athletes accomplishments, when performance enhancing drugs under a different name have been around since the early 1900's.

"I now realise that the Toronto Maple Leafs, Canada's finest hockey team, is better than the Ottawa Senators - and always will be. PS - LOVE that Dion Phaneuf! "

Beans15

Posted - 08/13/2013 : 11:42:06 Wow!! Know we know things... First and foremost, if we are going back to 1988, we have some serious issues as things have changed SO much since that time it's not even funny. The IOC only tested during the games back then. Today, they test ALL the time. Secondly, I would like to learn of some example of athletes who participated in the Olympics and tested clean and then tested positive under a different system. Also, Carl Lewis, for one, has never tested positive nor admitted to doing any PED's. There was one other guy that has also held strong that he didn't do anything and has never tested positive. Can't remember his name but he was on the 30 for 30 documentary. The others that tested positive we all after that race. So, you cannot say that all of those guys were on something during the race. You just can't.

As far as this magically stuff that someone can take between periods?? Really?? I think there might be a little too much conspiracy stuff in you last post. I am not saying it doesn't happen. I'm not saying the numbers aren't higher than what we think or want to think. But wow. This is just over the top in my opinion. Everyone knows someone that knows someone that knows a guy that sold the stuff to the trainerís brother's wife's cousin's nephew twice removed.

Virtually every rumour you hear like that is nowhere near the truth.

Most importantly, this really isn't relevant to the conversation. The topic is about Bettman's performance as the commission vs. Bud Sellig's performance in baseball and if you agree with the editorial comment.

Ottawa, the best coached team in the NHL, with MVP like players such as Chris Neil, will win the Cup in 2013!

nuxfan

Posted - 08/13/2013 : 09:03:22

quote:Originally posted by slozo

But "smart" is, for Bettman, smart for him - and smart for the people who will approve a huge raise for him. He knows where his bread is buttered, and caters solely to those few influential owners who will keep him well taken care of for a long time.

The official job of the NHL Commissioner, taken from the NHL constitution, is spelled out here:

Bettmans job is to run the business of the NHL, and in that regard, he works solely for the league and franchise owners. He does not work for players, and he does not work for you the Fan, at least not directly.

So - what exactly do you think the Commissioner's job should be?

slozo

Posted - 08/13/2013 : 09:02:45 Olympics tests are held up as the paragon of all drug tests, and seen as the most stringent . . . and yet, they don't catch the majority of first world athletes who are juiced.

We all know NOW that when Ben Johnson got caught and was held up as the "one cheater" that dirtied his sport . . . we now know that every single one of those other 7 in the final were juicing. Every single one.

And why wouldn't you? The fame, glory, and huge amount of money from endorsement deals after a win or a medal . . . it's worth it for most athletes.

To think that hockey is different, even though a small difference in performance could mean millions of dollars more . . . is really silly.

I would contend that in hockey, there are often "short term boosts" that the players take . . . say, before a third period. Something that doesn't show up soon after use, but you can take it during a game no problem.

There are many drugs out there like this, trust me. Too much money, too much at stake. And I've had way too many anecdotal stories told to me by people who have been around and even played on the international stage, to know that everyone does it.

"Take off, eh?" - Bob and Doug

Beans15

Posted - 08/13/2013 : 07:57:16 Oh Slozo, how conveinietly things are forgotten. Through all of the years Bettman, in words, "kept a franchise in Phoenix with a non-existant fan base," how many different potential owners stepped up to the plate? I can think of 6 off the top of my head. According to the NHL constitution, the league must exhaust every possible ownership opportunity that will keep the keep where it is prior to relocation. Comparing Phoenix to Atlanta, no one stepped up and there was zero local ownership opportunity so they moved. In the entire Phoenix saga there has always been at least one potential owner at different stages of either working with the NHL or working with the City of Glendale (who also subsidized the teams losses for the time they were owned by the NHL). Are you not being critial of Bettman doing a) his job as defined by his employer(s), and b) for following the constituation of the NHL correctly???

2 - 80% of the NHLers are juiced?? That's a bit high in my opinion but that is not relevant. The question is, if that number is anywhere close to correct, why does Bettman get all the heat for having his head in the sand but the PA gets no blame. You gave the PA a token statement in your latest post and gave Bettman a hundred or so words of blame.

PS - Do you really think 80%?? I mean, has there been a single player in the Olympics test positive for PEDs?? Through 3 Olympics there have been 600 or so players who played and likely that many invited to camps and therefore tested. 1200+ Olympic standard tests and nothing positive for PED's (that I am aware of) and you think 80% of NHLer's are juicing??

Again, I think that's a little high.

Ottawa, the best coached team in the NHL, with MVP like players such as Chris Neil, will win the Cup in 2013!

slozo

Posted - 08/13/2013 : 04:53:53 But the article is incorrect then, if you say it is saying Bettman treated failing franchises equally . . . compare Phoenix to Winnipeg and Quebec City, please. The first thing you will say with Winnipeg is . .. they had no owner, he had NO CHOICE but to move. Then one realises that . . . Phoenix was owned by the league for SEVERAL YEARS. Yeesh.

It's all plain as day to me. He fought hardest and longest to keep a hockey team in the desert with a non-existant fanbase, vs getting out of town quick from a rabid fanbase in a strong Canadian market. The Canadian dollar was the MAJOR factor in Winnipeg's losses, despite all the stuff you'll hear about it not being a big market (it isn't a huge market, but big enough). If one knows the fluctuations of markets . . . doesn't one just wait out the eventual rise back up of the Canuck dollar in that case?

But "smart" is, for Bettman, smart for him - and smart for the people who will approve a huge raise for him. He knows where his bread is buttered, and caters solely to those few influential owners who will keep him well taken care of for a long time.

And yes Beans,I do agree that the player's union is hugely at fault on the PED issue, no question about it. But the article is on Bettman, and on that issue, he has been mute - see no evil, ignore it and it doesn't exist.

And that stance HAS, certainly, made many many fans believe there is no problem. I totally dare you to take an informal poll among your hockey loving brethren in Edmonton, and ask them what they think the percentage of PED users in the NHL is - then compare it to your estimate. Then think about what the apparent level is in a sport like baseball, and how rampant it obviously is in football, and think to yourself how likely it is that becoming a millionaire in the NHL isn't a big enough lure to do the same in hockey.

I bet you anything - and it would have to be a historical look back bet, maybe in 20 years or something we'd have a clearer picture - that hockey is right up there with football in terms of PED use. I am guessing over 80% of players are juiced.

"Take off, eh?" - Bob and Doug

Beans15

Posted - 08/12/2013 : 14:23:06 I don't think anyone is looking at the PED issue and saying nothing is happening in hockey. Also, and to the point of people often blaming Bettman for everything, all of the 4 major sports require the support of their PA before installing any kind of PED or substance abuse testing. But for those who feel better about blaming Bettman for everything, blame away. Just know the blame is only 1/2 his at the absolute most.

More importantly, I don't think this story had anything to do with comparing the PED issue in baseball to any issue there may be in hockey (PS, I also believe it happens a lot more in hockey than what is publically discussed). What I read in this story is comparing the two commissioners and their actions in dealing with issues. Sellig and the PED issues compared to Bettman and the failing franchise issues. The point I read in the story is that Sellig appears to have reaped the benefits of those on PED's in the late 90's/early 00's and then thrown the book at players when it is convenient for him. On the other side of the coin, Bettman's error have been completely transparant and, more importantly, consistent. He didn't treat any failing franchise better or worse than any other.

Personally, I have a lot of respect for people who can not only make the unpopular choice but also be consistent in that. As I said, I am no fan of Bettman's ego nor his combative attitude. However, he is like that to everyone and plays no favorites.

Ottawa, the best coached team in the NHL, with MVP like players such as Chris Neil, will win the Cup in 2013!

nuxfan

Posted - 08/12/2013 : 12:03:30

quote:Originally posted by slozo

So I guess you guys missed the point of the article?

The author is trying to say Bettman is better than all the other commissioners of the "big 4" because . . . he has been utterly silent on PEDs in hockey, and has basically ignored any and all issues. And probably had many others we don't know about swept under the rug.

Does anyone really believe that at the very least, a significant portion of NHLers are on the juice? And if you are like me, suspect that well over half, probably around 2/3 of them are on PEDs of some sort?

Do people really believe that ignoring a problem - while effective from a PR standpoint - is morally just or aceptable? Is the "right thing to do"?

Do people think that the statistical average of PED users for all big money sports suddenly drops to zero for hockey because we are somehow exempt from athletes trying to get an edge?

I call BS.

"Take off, eh?" - Bob and Doug

The point of the article is in the second line of the article:

"The central premise that I am currently proposing is that Gary Bettman has been a good steward for the sport of hockey in his reign as the NHL's commissioner"

The only thing drug-specific about this article is the fact that the latest blunder for Selig has been a massive drug scandal - that was handled poorly.

The NHL has a drug policy and mandatory drug testing (http://www.nhl.com/ice/page.htm?id=26397). Further, unlike other sports, many of the top NHL players play a fair amount at the international level - yearly world championships, olympics, new NHL-sponsored world championships - which require an additional level of drug testing on an ongoing basis. AFAIK, they get tested pretty regularly by multiple authorities.

Are you suggesting that the NHL is not doing a good enough job with their testing? Or that they are purposely ignoring/hiding positive tests? If not, what exactly has Bettman ignored?

slozo

Posted - 08/12/2013 : 11:33:54 So I guess you guys missed the point of the article?

The author is trying to say Bettman is better than all the other commissioners of the "big 4" because . . . he has been utterly silent on PEDs in hockey, and has basically ignored any and all issues. And probably had many others we don't know about swept under the rug.

Does anyone really believe that at the very least, a significant portion of NHLers are on the juice? And if you are like me, suspect that well over half, probably around 2/3 of them are on PEDs of some sort?

Do people really believe that ignoring a problem - while effective from a PR standpoint - is morally just or aceptable? Is the "right thing to do"?

Do people think that the statistical average of PED users for all big money sports suddenly drops to zero for hockey because we are somehow exempt from athletes trying to get an edge?

I call BS.

"Take off, eh?" - Bob and Doug

Beans15

Posted - 08/12/2013 : 11:26:45 Some people will never be happy with anything and someone in Bettman's position can never make everyone happy. I think the very best line in this entire story was: "...it is very much the case of people getting mad at the puppet for what the ventriloquist says without moving his lips..." I laugh every single time people blame Bettman for everything wrong with the NHL.

I think some might be thinking a little bit short term thinking when statements are made that Bettman doesn't care about the Canadian fan. Many blame him for the losses of Quebec City and Winnipeg but I recall him and the NHL offices working incredibly hard to find local owners. Also, without the changes to the small market incentive system it was very likely that both Edmonton and Calgary would have lost their franchises in the 90's. Bettman and the NHL have gone to the rail for the Canadian fan on more than one occasion but how quickly that if forgotten.

Not without his faults, I would agree with anyone who says Bettman stays behind failing franchises for too long. Also, his ego is massive and his fight against Jim Balsillie (although I sided with Bettman) was likely ill-advised. Rather than trying to find a common ground with Balsillie, Bettman fought. It's in his nature to be combative and, although he doesn't often lose, it is not always in the best interest of the game.

As far as the comparison to Sellig, if any NHL fans also follow baseball and think that Bettman is worse, I will call you all morons. Sellig is the WORST commissioner in all of sports and he should thank his lucky stars that baseball has the tradition and history as he has done nothing to make that sport better in his time as the head of the league.

Ottawa, the best coached team in the NHL, with MVP like players such as Chris Neil, will win the Cup in 2013!

nuxfan

Posted - 08/12/2013 : 10:00:46 It depends from what side you are looking.

If I'm an owner, I like what Bettman has done. Under his tenure, the NHL has grown in overall revenue, size, market share. Every team has increased in value over that time. At the same time he has brought costs down and made them more predictable for owners - thus increasing profitability. He has made tough choices on behalf of owners - 3 lockouts during the last 20 years - and has won concessions in each of those 3 lockouts. There is a reason that his contract continues to get renewed every time it comes up for renewal.

As a fan, I'm on the fence. I generally don't like Bettman. I think he has largely ignored Canadian fans during his tenure, and takes them for granted - they will always come back for the game, no matter what he does. I think expansion has diluted the game too much skills-wise, and has caused there to be massive inequities within the league (to his credit, a salary cap and revenue sharing largely solves this issue).

However, you can't argue that the game has improved under his watch - it is faster, harder, and (arguably) more exciting to watch now than it was 20 years ago. Rule changes have been brought in to speed up the game, make it more exciting, and encourage a combination of skill and physicality. There are some outstanding regional and divisional rivalries all around, and a reasonable amount of parity, so the league is not dominated by a few good teams. The question is, was he responsible for it, or was he just at the head of the ship? I think more the latter.