Hanzze wrote:That we do not easy understand the precepts today because we are very interpretation orientated. We loose in the interpretation while we oversee the point. The roots of the precepts is compassion. When we stay at compassion we will see that even we misinterpret something we cause suffering. So that brings us back to the point. Human love laws, prisons, and leader, because they need always an anchor. An anchor to claim somebody else as the reason for faults.In later times there have been made more than 200 precepts for monks, because they could not get the point. Just keep compassion alive while looking if something is wrong or right. Focus only on not harming and not killing. You will find the cause of suffering by your self.Or one step higher. Focus only on lying and you also will keep all other precepts as you had find out the sufferings cause.Do not get lost in interpretations, trust the Buddha. He is inside of you!

I don't think we disagree here but why are you waiting for the next Buddha?

On New Years Eve, at the Forest Monastery I attend, we all formally took the Five Precepts for a year. We were requested in the weeks prior to the ceremony, to reflect deeply, and only take them if we were committed to follow the Precepts fully for the time.

Having taken them, I felt the one on Right Speech would be the hardest one for me. However, this did not prove to be the case.

My daughter was married a few weeks ago, and at the Reception, I had some wine with the Toasts. Everyone was celebrating, and I didn't give it much thought (obviously). I didn't feel the slightest 'glow' and wouldn't have had more than a glass and a half in total through the whole evening.

However, attending at the Monastery the next week, I asked Bhante about it. He said I had definitely broken the Precept, and had now confessed the breach to him. The next week on Uposatha it was necessary for me to take the Precepts again - which I did.

This has certainly brought home to me that the Precepts are not a casual formality to be "stretched" to fit around everyday customs and what we are feeling inclined to do.

With metta,Chris

---The trouble is that you think you have time------Worry is the Interest, paid in advance, on a debt you may never owe------It's not what happens to you in life that is important ~ it's what you do with it ---

A few weeks ago I was trying to talk myself into breaking the 5th precept for a vacation I was planning to go on where there would be tons of drinking. In the end I realized I was just fooling myself. I think it's important to stick to the precepts no matter what. It helps build strength in character and an ability to resist outside pressures, which is important, especially in the world we live in today. I can see how a wedding situation is tough. The last wedding I went to I hadn't taken the precepts...it was actuallly closely after that wedding that I decided to give up alcohol and take up the 5 precepts. I'm curious to see how things will go at the next wedding I'm invited too, but I'll keep your story in mind. Good luck moving forward and glad you took the precepts again.

cooran wrote:My daughter was married a few weeks ago, and at the Reception, I had some wine with the Toasts. Everyone was celebrating, and I didn't give it much thought (obviously). I didn't feel the slightest 'glow' and wouldn't have had more than a glass and a half in total through the whole evening.

Hi Chris,

Thanks for sharing that. On special occasions like that there are usually some sparking grape juices or other non-alcoholic drinks that can be used for toasts. You didn't drink that much and no one was harmed (other than perhaps yourself). I know some consider drinking alcohol a serious violation because it can lead to so many other actions, but since it didn't in this case, I wouldn't see it as too serious a transgression. In my opinion intentionally harming another being is much more serious, which of course you didn't do. But, yes I agree that the precepts are not a casual formality to be stretched for customs.

Would not decaffinated coffee and tea solve the problem? My late husband loved green tea but had a blood pressure issue that was worsened by caffeine so he drank decaf green tea, both hot and iced, and found it to be a fine substitute. Is not decaf tea and coffee available everywhere? Or is it still considered to be an intoxicant?

I was a social drinker for almost 40 years. I could not see how a glass of wine or Scotch and coke can damage my path to progress. The majority of my Buddhist male friends (98%) drink alcohol. The media continue to promote alcohol, to say red wine is good for your health.

When I join Dhamma Wheel, I was convinced by some forum members that consumption of alcohol is a BIG NO NO, if you want to progress in your path.

Getting back to the opening post, I have often wondered about ganja and the interpretation of the 5th precept. I want to emphasize that I am not concerned about whether it is desirable or not to partake of ganja. I am certain that it is not as I am ceratin that it is akusala as it is rooted in greed. The concern I have is as to whether it is a "breach" of the fifth precept or not, and that is not the same thing as the former in my opinion, otherwise you would also have to include all akusala activities which definitely are not covered in their totality by the five precepts.

The issue I have with the interpretation that the fifth precept somehow includes all mind altering substance, and specifically ganja, in addition to fermented drinks is that I do not know of any mention of ganja or derivatives in the Pali canon, although it was of (widespread) use in the Indian culture at the time of the Buddha, including for religious purposes. I would happily be corrected if someone can point to an authoritative different opinion on this. Now, if it was in use, and if it was somehow related to the five precepts (which is very basic right living for an adept) would that have not come up and be mentioned by the Buddha, at least once?

MidGe wrote:Now, if it was in use, and if it was somehow related to the five precepts (which is very basic right living for an adept) would that have not come up and be mentioned by the Buddha, at least once?

Does it lead to heedlessness? Does it increase sloth & torpor? Does it increase craving, perhaps for sugars or foods? Is it entertaining, like going to a show? Is it a sensual cord? Does it promote papanca?

I've smoked a lot of bud in my day, and the answers to the above questions are all "yes" in my experience. I think there might be some insight to be gained in contemplating a mind which wants to shove cannabis through a loophole...

The Buddha didn't name specific mixed drinks, either, but a cannabis preparation for drinking - bhang - probably falls under the precept as worded, and I doubt the Buddha intended a differentiation based on dosing method.

For the record, I'm in favor of legalization, even in favor of civil disobedience to get it done. It's one of the more benign substances around, but it's hardly a neutral anodyne when it comes to mental equipoise.

"And how is it, bhikkhus, that by protecting oneself one protects others? By the pursuit, development, and cultivation of the four establishments of mindfulness. It is in such a way that by protecting oneself one protects others.

"And how is it, bhikkhus, that by protecting others one protects oneself? By patience, harmlessness, goodwill, and sympathy. It is in such a way that by protecting others one protects oneself.- Sedaka Sutta [SN 47.19]

I agree entirely with you, my question is different. As i said in my previous post: "I want to emphasize that I am not concerned about whether it is desirable or not to partake of ganja. I am certain that it is not as I am certain that it is akusala as it is rooted in greed. The concern I have is as to whether it is a "breach" of the fifth precept or not".

I agree entirely with you, my question is different. As i said in my previous post: "I want to emphasize that I am not concerned about whether it is desirable or not to partake of ganja. I am certain that it is not as I am certain that it is akusala as it is rooted in greed. The concern I have is as to whether it is a "breach" of the fifth precept or not".

Yes, that post of mine was rather rambling; but, to clarify, while it isn't a clearly delineated substance, the fact that bhang was probably around means that cannabis likely (surely?) falls under the proscription.

The answer to the first question I asked, above, is a similar indication.

"And how is it, bhikkhus, that by protecting oneself one protects others? By the pursuit, development, and cultivation of the four establishments of mindfulness. It is in such a way that by protecting oneself one protects others.

"And how is it, bhikkhus, that by protecting others one protects oneself? By patience, harmlessness, goodwill, and sympathy. It is in such a way that by protecting others one protects oneself.- Sedaka Sutta [SN 47.19]