That doesn't even count the folks like me that don't hunt but have guns,
maybe the japs were right when they said in America there is a gun behind
every blade of grass!!!!

The World's Largest Army. America's Hunters?The state of Wisconsin has gone an entire deer hunting season without someone getting killed. That's great. There were over 600,000 hunters. Allow me to restate that number. Over the last two months, the eighth largest army in the world - more men under arms than Iran; more than France and Germany combined - deployed to the woods of a single American state to help keep the deer menace at bay. But that pales in comparison to the 750,000 who are in the woods of Pennsylvania this week. Michigan 's 700,000 hunters have now returned home. Toss in a quarter million hunters in West Virginia , and it is literally the case that the hunters of those four states alone would comprise the largest army in the world. America will forever be safe from foreign invasion of troops with that kind of home-grown firepower.Hunting - it's not just a way to fill the freezer. It's a matter of national security!

Now you know why the liberal anti-gun group wants to take the guns away.

Any random dude with hunting rifle (even if s/he's old, out-of-shape, diabetic, hard-of-hearing, or has some other mild-to-moderate health problem that's treatable enough to allow you a recreational day in the local woods shooting a deer) is THE SAME THING as a young, fit, healthy, fully-trained soldier with state-of-the art equipment, in an organized military structure!

(And here I thought the right was all about "respecting" the troops.)

And the point of all of this is that...what? Liberals want to take guns away from hunters?

Oh, yeah, that's right, I forgot... supporting any kind of licensing, registration, or background checks is THE SAME THING as taking away everyone's guns! (I mean, look what happened when the started regulating cars - first it was licenses and registration, but now, only outlaws have...oh, wait, nevermind.)

Texas is about to allow concealed carry on college campuses. No mention of requiring the carriers to keep up on their gun training. Gun Training that's a thing that soldiers and cops do ALL the TIME--why? because they recognize that they NEED constant training with their weapons in order to respond correctly to surprising situations. And that's part of what makes them real soldiers and real cops. Just having a gun really means little, if you end up using it incorrectly--like Valyard's link proves.

Dear Anon - yes, believe it or not, cutting our insanely bloated military budget (which, by the way, is hidden throughout other parts of the US fed budget, so it's even larger than you think) *could* in fact assist in feeding the poor and unemployed... rather than cutting Food Stamps, which just happened, the money *wasted* on overspending on our military could be put towards.... ta da!... Food Stamps and school lunch programs for a starter. In the height of a depression, now there's an idea...

Let's see, who benefits from insane amounts of US tax dollars poured down the gaping maw of the Military Industrial Complex??? Why, the elites, that's who. You know: the upper 2% of our society, who are ever so much more *in need of* more and more US tax dollars than people who've been out of work (through no fault of their own) for several years now.

But, hey: the banksters and Wall Streeters just gave themselves billions in bonuses - at US taxpayer expense - so why not the rest of elites?

Let the poor starve is the rightwing motto.

P.S. this whole rightwing guns 'n ammo industry thinktank "message" is teh stooopit, and is the usual meaningless blather about how teh dreaded LIEbruls are frantically yanking yer gunz 'n ammo outta yer cold dead hands. Brought to you by the gunz 'n ammo industry, who laugh their asses off all the way to their offshore Swiss bank accounts.... how they just love to rip off rightwing rubes by scaring them with dumb stories.

... so we should take jobs away to feed more peole without them... again brilliant!!! - thank you

Are you admitting that government spending actually leads to and/or sustains jobs? Actual, real jobs?

Maybe someone should tell that to the Republican party, because they seem to think that all government money gets thrown into a hole and lit on fire.

Of course, waste and fraud do exist in the government... largely in military contracts. Every year we pay tens, even hundreds, of billions of dollars to military suspected (and in some cases, convicted) of fraud. Maybe if we cut down some of that we could save a bit on that deficit wingnuts are always wailing about.

Maybe you should research a little more about whats causing the deficit... just sayin'

30 years of Republican tax slashing for the rich, combined with the largest defense budget in the world, plus the trillions poured into Iraq and Afghanistan, paired with the biggest recession in generations (caused largely by right wing deregulation of the financial markets) = deficits!

Republicans need to grow the fuck up. They held this country hostage last year for the very specific purpose of getting a 4% marginal tax cut for the richest 1% of Americans, a tax cut which will add hundreds of billions to the deficit. You don't get to do that and then turn around and complain about deficits.

a tax cut which will add hundreds of billions to the deficit - what? seriously? Must be that new math... Thank you...

Holy crap, do you really not understand that taxes = revenue, and so when you cut them revenue goes down? As revenue goes down, deficits go up. This is kindergarten level math.

Uh duh, the rich pay the most in taxes...

But they don't pay the highest effective tax rate, nor do the pay but a fraction of what they paid for most of the 20th century. Hell, they don't even pay what they paid under Clinton, during the best economic in the history of the world!

For 30 years they have paid less and less in taxes, and for 30 years the distribution of wealth has gotten less equal and deficits have gotten worse. These are not coincidences.

new troll = any one that has a different opinion than mine... sounds right - thanks again.

No, a troll is someone like you who spews illogical crap with no particular purpose except to stir up shit. You've made zero relevant points during all of your postings. You've done nothing but sound like a petulant idiot.

@thomas point conceeded...

Point conceded? What the fuck point are you conceding?

but it is what they called them during that era

That era was 60+ years ago. This email was not written during that era, so what does one have to do with the other?

It would be nice to have an intelligent discussion, for once, with conservatives about how money is spent by the federal govt. Sadly my experiences of doing so have mostly ended up like the "conversation" here with this conservative. It mostly boils down to:

- Why should we cut military spending bc all those zillion$$$ given in no-bid contracts to the MIC won't really "make a difference" to the Fed budget (uh... how so?... taking away billion$$$ from Dick Cheney's Halliburton or Xe will mean that those billion$$$$ are now "free" to be spent elsewhere, like on our failing infrastructure, hence, creating jobs).

- the super wealthy should be pitied and kowtowed to because they "pay the most in taxes," which completely *ignores* the fact that most of the super wealthy are drawing income, they're only paying 15% or less on all of their capital gains. Plus, it also *conveniently* glosses over the fact that, yes they do pay effectively more in tax than those less wealthy, but the upper 2% are paying *proportionately* far far less than those of us in the rapidly shrinking middle and working classes.

- Then having spent time here basically saying - word for word - typical Rush Limbaugh/Glenn Beck rightwing thinktank talking points, the conservative tells us dreaded LIEbruls that *we* are the ones who need to stop repeating what we've been "taught" or "heard" or whatever. That's rich; project much? Wherever are Liberals supposedly "fed" these leftwing talking points? I'd *love* to know where this fountain of liberalness is bc it sure ain't anywhere in the corporate-owned rightwing media, which, by the way, definitely & unequivocably includes NPR, PBS and MSNBC. I hardly ever listen to/watch those outlets anymore bc they are all corporate owned, very subjective & crappy in their "nooz" presentations, etc. So there's no where that I'm "going" where I'm "fed" some leftwing "talking points." What most conservatives simply don't realize is that leftwing people actually have to do their homework to get the information that we have. There isn't *one* news outlet that we can go to in order to get our alleged "talking points."

- And then we're back to name calling and so forth.

Not very enlightening but I live in hope - and it does happen sometimes - of having more meaningful dialog with conservatives. In the main, when I do run across a conservative who is thinking for him/herself and is actually - gasp! - going out doing some of their own research, said conservative usually ends up becoming much more *independent,* if not fully liberal.

Funny about that. Facts do tend to have a liberal bias, which is why Roger Aisles at Fixed "Nooz" tries so hard to make up phony stuff, and even bought off the court system to say that Fixed could lie like a rug and call it "noooz." You do the math.

again you haven't done any homework... I have never stated that I am a conservative (you are assuming because I'm laughing at your REDERICK)... You are blabbing the same liberal stuff with no real point in this long winded post... you are essentially wrong about spending and where the money comes from... and even from my recomendation you haven't researched it... and so on

Dear Anon/"Rederick" - if it is not your "obligation" to "disprove anything: fine. Then why are you here? If you're not interested in presenting an opposing point of view, then I'm unclear on why you bother to be here.

P.S. If the US govt actually *stopped* spending so much on the Military Industrial Complex - which includes far more than the budget for the Dept of Defense (military spending is hidden all throughout the US fed budget and includes loads of secret accounts (witness CIA staffer, Robert Davies, currently in jail in Pakistan - his activies were funded as part of the MIC, but you won't find the money for his salary or "projects" anywhere in any budget that *you* can see) - THEN there would be money available for other projects/agencies/ whatever.

Since our esteemed politicians - whether they have a D or a R by their names (all the same party really) - have refused for years (because they're bought off by K St lobbyists) to cut the Military Indus Complex budget, there is *no extra money* to spend.

IF, hypothetically, that money became available, THEN it could be spent on other things, such as infrastructure, which is failing. And I personally consider it a form of terrorism against the US populace to renig on responsibilities domestically in order to enrich the already wealthy with no-bid defense contracts (that often end up doing a sh*tty job):

http://www.nytimes.com/2011/02/22/science/22dam.html

http://www.buzzflash.com/contributors/03/08/17_halliburton.html

And just to let you know who's funding the union busting politicians in these United States:

http://www.nytimes.com/2011/02/22/us/22koch.html?scp=2&sq=koch&st=cse

http://www.nytimes.com/2010/08/29/opinion/29rich.html

I'm unclear on why middle income earners are so "concerned" about the fabulously wealthy & their alleged "over taxation," yet when middle to lower income earners make a fair wage & benefits, it's considered a travesty. But hey: that's just me. I want to be paid fairly for the work I do, and I deserve the pension & Soc Sec that I *paid into.*

to the other anon... clever insults, good job avoiding the issue... I think your insults and long posts actually do me the favors.

You have addressed ZERO issues. All you have done is try to claim that up is down and black is white with no effort to apply logic, reason or evidence. You're a pathetic troll, and the worst part is you aren't even fucking INTERESTING. At least be entertaining, you boring little twit.

its not my obligation to disprove. <--- PERIOD (is that clear enough for you)

Proper grammar usually demands a capital letter at the beginning of sentence. But even putting that aside: what's your fucking point? You come here to spout of bunch of meaningless garbage, you get rebutted, and then you claim that "its not my obligation" to bring anything resembling logic or evidence to the conversation. That's how this works, moron! If you want to argue a point, it is absolutely on you to provide evidence to back yourself up and/or rebut the points of others. This is what debate is! Holy hell, even the most obnoxious trolls understand that.

Ok, so I'm "crazy" because I want & expect & demand that I get the money that I *worked darned hard* to contribute to Social Security and my pension.

Is that correct?

That's "crazy" for me to expect to get a return on my investment?

Is that it? THAT's what is "crazy" to conservatives???

I'm asking a serious question, albeit I doubt I'll get a serious or well-thought out answer.

But if *anyone* posting/reading here can explain to me why I'm "crazy" to expect to get a return on my investment, then I'd be glad to hear the answer(s).

Anon/"Rederick" has already instructed us that s/he's not "obligated" to prove or disprove anything... so other than calling me "nutty" for wanting my investment in my pension plans... uh... I got nothing.

And this, my friends, is why the conservative/ Tea Bagger/ John Birch/ Libertarian/ whatever "philosophy" is useless and ridiculous: there is no "debate," simply rightwing talking points. And then when a worker *expects* to get back from the system that they *paid into,* they're called "crazy."

Uh-huh: got it.

David Koch laughs all the way to his numerous off-shore bank accounts by being able to so easily dupe the likes of rubes like that....

@other anon "You have addressed ZERO issues. All you have done is try to claim that up is down and black is white with no effort to apply logic, reason or evidence. You're a pathetic troll, and the worst part is you aren't even fucking INTERESTING. At least be entertaining, you boring little twit." - shut up bitch

@ferschitz "Anon/"Rederick" has already instructed us that s/he's not "obligated" to prove or disprove anything... so other than calling me "nutty" for wanting my investment in my pension plans... uh... I got nothing.... "

What in the hell are you talking about?... first of all I haven't called you anything... second I have no obligation to disprove anything you state as fact.... obviously I have an obligation to prove, if I ever stated anything that needed proving... I haven't had to say anything of major substance because the retorts by the other posters make my case... people so quick to start dropping the F-Bomb and start name calling for no reason, show their level of competency... (Now you on the other hand have a good solid foundation and could probably make people listen, but you’re surrounded by imbeciles, which discredits everything you say.)

Since our esteemed politicians - whether they have a D or a R by their names (all the same party really) - have refused for years (because they're bought off by K St lobbyists) to cut the Military Indus Complex budget, there is *no extra money* to spend. <---- and the truth will set you free

To last Anon post: you mostly quote what I said. So I'm not really getting your point, Anon (Rederick?).

You asked how cutting the MIC budget would enable the spending of money elsewhere, and I explained it. I *also* point out that the pols - who are bought off - refuse to cut the MIC complex in order to spend domestically.

We seem to be going in circles and not gaining any ground.

I'll end this mostly one-sided monologue with this parting thought:

WHY are we spending so much on useless senseless wars of aggression that it has been proven we've been lied to about?

WHY do most conservatives think that insane spending on useless wars is "good," whilst spending domestically to create jobs, improve our nation's infrastructure, and possibly aid those in need is "bad" and/or evil socialism or what have you.

Those are rhetorical questions. I don't really expect to get an answer, as the conservatives who post here refuse to be drawn into any kind of dialogue or debate which I find very disingenuous and cowardly, to say the least.

Dear Anon - yes, believe it or not, cutting our insanely bloated military budget (which, by the way, is hidden throughout other parts of the US fed budget, so it's even larger than you think) *could* in fact assist in feeding the poor and unemployed... rather than cutting Food Stamps, which just happened, the money *wasted* on overspending on our military could be put towards.... ta da!... Food Stamps and school lunch programs for a starter. In the height of a depression, now there's an idea...  you could cut the entire Military, fire all the teachers and there is still no money… unless we print more… and then we owe interest on that… the deficit is too high to ever pay back… so cutting the military budget (or any other budget) is only going to cut that budget… it will not supply money to other places or needs.

Let's see, who benefits from insane amounts of US tax dollars poured down the gaping maw of the Military Industrial Complex??? Why, the elites, that's who. You know: the upper 2% of our society, who are ever so much more *in need of* more and more US tax dollars than people who've been out of work (through no fault of their own) for several years now.  There are jobs out there if you want them… but that aside, military contracts support more than the elites. I worked in a place for ten years the relied on military contracts, it was a labor job and everyone there were blue collar workers so… Military contracts help everyone… but that is not to say I completely disagree, the elites benefit at every turn… that’s the plan.

But, hey: the banksters and Wall Streeters just gave themselves billions in bonuses - at US taxpayer expense - so why not the rest of elites? – Who’s the rest?

Let the poor starve is the rightwing motto.  more like get a job or starve – good motto

P.S. this whole rightwing guns 'n ammo industry thinktank "message" is teh stooopit, and is the usual meaningless blather about how teh dreaded LIEbruls are frantically yanking yer gunz 'n ammo outta yer cold dead hands. Brought to you by the gunz 'n ammo industry, who laugh their asses off all the way to their offshore Swiss bank accounts.... how they just love to rip off rightwing rubes by scaring them with dumb stories. <- yes they use scare tactics, who doesn’t? However, look up Nazi, Germany and how Hitler knew where all the guns were.

You give trolls a bad name, and I say that as someone who hates trolls. And you might want to figure out how to use some HTML tags. Its not that hard.

What in the hell are you talking about?... first of all I haven't called you anything...

No, you did call him "crazy" (without any actual evidence to rebut his points). Its right up there in the thread. So you did call him something.

second I have no obligation to disprove anything you state as fact....

Again, this is what argument is. If you are going to argue with Ferschitz, or anyone else, its on YOU to disprove their points. Debate 101.

I haven't had to say anything of major substance because the retorts by the other posters make my case... people so quick to start dropping the F-Bomb and start name calling for no reason, show their level of competency...

You're last retort to someone was "Shut up bitch". Pot, meet kettle.

But even beyond that: oh noes, someone said "fuck"! That means what they said somehow doesn't matter, and I win by default (apparently "bitch" doesn't follow these rules).

Grow the fuck up. If you want to argue, argue. Don't hide behind fake "civility", especially when all you've done is be an annoying little twit who has brought nothing to the conversation.

(Now you on the other hand have a good solid foundation and could probably make people listen, but you’re surrounded by imbeciles, which discredits everything you say.)

WHY do most conservatives think that insane spending on useless wars is "good," whilst spending domestically to create jobs, improve our nation's infrastructure, and possibly aid those in need is "bad" and/or evil socialism or what have you. - thats just REDERIK... how would you have me answer that... I don't believe what you are saying is true.. when you say things like this you are now calling the kettle black... how can I retort to a statement that says Conservatives think this? No one thinks war is good, you are mistaking the elites opinion for the average citizen (or vice versa) When you say spending domestically in what way do you speak of?

Because they do? Most groups tend to have an ideology which they gel around.

No one thinks war is good,

I have some Neoconservatives I'd like you to meet.

you are mistaking the elites opinion for the average citizen

So elites don't have any relation to the average citizen in terms of ideology? Given that elites shape the rhetoric and policy outcomes and derive their support from the average citizen, I'd say there is a relation.

(or vice versa)

So you really have no clue what groups you are trying to talk about or what they believe.

BTW, you just said that no one likes war. Then you said that there is a group which could possibly like war (though you don't seem to know which group that is). Contradiction in 2 moves. Impressive.

When you say spending domestically in what way do you speak of?

He means the domestic budget. Obviously. Politics 101.

As far as the rest of that stuff you said... shut up bitch

Can we take this as you (finally!) throwing in the towel and giving up on your trolling?

Whomever you are - you are just making my point... you aren't making any sense and then continue on with the insults - I contradicted nothing and never said any one likes war... the shut up bitch is for the moron that just keeps firing off insults instead of any real point... i assume thats you

@anon - whatever... you are still making my point - you rebuttled nothing.. never did I whine about being insulted - just stated that you are making an ass out of yourself... and now I know you will reply with some other stuff saying "no you are making an ass out of yourself or what have you troll" but the truth is... I respond to dignified responses in a dignified manner... and yours well like this... shut up bitch

Not sure what "rebuttled" means (maybe you should figure out spell check before you try learning HTML), but your idiotic arguments have all been responded to. You have made no valid points.

never did I whine about being insulted

Are you joking? You just said that! You just fucking said that you were being insulted! You have the short term memory that would make any hardcore Republican proud!

I respond to dignified responses in a dignified manner

When were your posts EVER dignified? I'm looking up and down the thread, and I see nothing of yours which could be called dignified. You started with trollish idiocy, and you've devolved from that point.

Even when you tried to respond to Fershitz your post was full of whining and lacking in dignity.

and yours well like this... shut up bitch

Point made. You never respond to anything, you just bury your head and refuse to acknowledge that you've contributed nothing worthwhile.

Not sure what "rebuttled" means (maybe you should figure out spell check before you try learning HTML), <--- what? rebutted sorry for the mistype - where in the hell do you see me doing html? - oh yeah and shut up bitch

That's the problem: you don't. I suggested you learn how (its not hard) it would make your trolling go a lot smoother.

But I guess in order to get that message you would have to actually READ and THINK about what other people post before slamming out more nonsense from your keyboard. Based on the evidence, that would be a first.

Saying America has the world's largest army because of some redneck hunters is like saying Nigeria has the world's largest soccer team because of all the urchins playing with a wad of newspaper and two piles of rocks for goals.

HTML has nothing to do with anything - again you aren't making any sense...

I don't see how this was so hard to understand. In your lame trolling attempts you were quoting people in an awkward format. I suggested that you learn how to use simple HTML tags in order to make your trolling a little more organized. You FREAK the fuck out about how you "weren't using HTML and what are you talking about", as if basic formatting was some sinister plot.

Look, its learning! And it only took 70 posts! At this rate, maybe it will make a meaningful point sometime in the next 4000 comments.

So far the only "points" you have made seem to be these:

1) Spending on items withing a budget is unrelated (incorrect)

2) Taxes are not a source of government revenue (incorrect)

3) You're not a troll (incorrect)

4) Some quarter-baked thoughts about elites and average people and ideology and how you can't really compare something because something else isn't related... or something. (incomplete at best, in truth vapid)

Mixed up with a bunch of lame insults, whining and crimes against logic and debate, all while lacking any real entertainment value.

People who respond to clone Redericks as if they were the real one: Exercise a little common sense, please.

Real Rederick: See at the bottom under the word verification, where it says "Choose an identity?" Click the Name/URL button instead of the Anonymous button. It will pop up a little box where you can enter your name. You can also enter a URL if you like, but that's optional. You can just enter a name with no URL and it will look like gruaud or ferschitz.

Question-How many liberals does it take to turn a post about the left wing nut jobs trying to take our Constitutional right to bear arms into mumbo jumbo about military and every other idea which is not related to the subject at hand (including being spelling police)?

How many liberals does it take to turn a post about the left wing nut jobs trying to take our Constitutional right to bear arms into mumbo jumbo about military and every other idea which is not related to the subject at hand (including being spelling police)?

Holy crap! The thread finally dies out, and we get a brand new idiot troll! Our cup flows over!

LOL!!! Yes, this is a dream come true. Boyohboy... trolls to the right of me, trolls not to the left of me, oh my! hardehar

"our constitutional rights to bear arms"... no nitwit, that's not what this RWF is really about, but I see you're eager and ready for your daily dose of rightwingnut fantasy talking points. Pass the Kool Aid, drink 'er down, AMEN!

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