Boy, I feel your pain in regard to the frustration. When I was
looking at systems a year ago, I spoke with ModelMaster and I like
the products but was not so impressed with the owners and the calls
I made to find out about their support. They are known for NOT
HAVING GOOD TECH SUPPORT. Artcam is an EXCELLANT product, but that
doesn't matter if you don't know how to use it. I can put you in
touch with an organization that has many Artcam users that will be
able to help you out. There are also a few that use the Model Master
Mills as well. That may be your only salvation. I do know of
another potential place for training, but I can't talk about it
here.

I opted to go with GEMVISION myself and purchased Matrix and the REVO
mill. I'm not one bit sorry for my decision. Gemvision has the
BEST tech support in the industry when it comes to the design
software. They're just getting off the ground with REVO, but I'm
not a machinest either and nothing is easier to use in the Machining
world than REVO. I know, because I also own a MaxNC mill as well
that I use Deskproto for CAM. As soon as I got back from training on
Matrix and REVO, I was making models and making money. That's the
KEY!!!! If your trying to figure out all this stuff on your own, then
why'd you spend $2,000 for training.

I'm not one for putting people down or companies for that matter.
But, my experience with ModelMaster and the references they gave me
always had the same story that your giving here right now. They
really do have Excellent products, but what good are they if you
can't get the training or help when you NEED IT!

If you want me to help you out and put you in contact with the
right people that I'm sure will share and help you out, please
contact me off list.

We own Both the Artcam and the Matrix programs. We run a modelmastermill and an Invision HR 3d printer.

I have had training from both companies, and while different, Icould not say that one was superior over the other.

I think that the gemvision training was a bit too slow for us andthat the Artcam training may have been a bit too fast, if I may beallowed to simplify the whole thing.

I would have to say that my experience was vastly different fromyours. I received personal in house training, and was making modelson the modelmaster very quickly. I think that there is a steeplearning curve to be sure, but once over the hump, we have been veryproductive with both programs.

People approach the cad cam area with great expectations and thinkthat they will be making any design they want right away. I like tocompare it to learning to make jewelry. You didn't learn to makejewelry overnight, think back to when you set your first stone, itwas probably very difficult. But you persevered and now sizings,stone settings and the like are pretty easy. Its the same with cadcam. You can only absorb so much at a time and then you must repeatand repeat things till you get then right.

I did have a few initial problems with software, actually codes formilling (I had the wrong ones) but it was rectified quickly.

In general it is probably quicker to get a response from Gemvisionto your questions, but mine have always been rectified withArtcam/Modelmaster as well. Also the Artcam user group is very goodat helping you solve difficulties.

I know that there is new documentation being written forModelmaster, not much comfort to those who have the machines nowperhaps, but it should be excellent when its done.

Time and again a project has been completed or time has been savedby using one program over the other. I think that it comes down tohow you design now, what type of work that you do and the overallneeds of your shop. With this criteria some would be bettor off withArtcam, others would be better off with Matrix.

As a service bureau we need to be able to do many different kinds ofdesigns in as short a time as possible, and we find both programsinvaluable.

contact us with further questionsThomas Cavagnaro, GGCadsmithing, LLC A Service Bureau480 688 4136cadsmith@cox.netwww.cadsmithing.com

Boy, I could DISAGREE more with Kevin. I have been very impressedwith ModelMasters tech support. Every time I have called they havebeen able to help me quickly. I will state that in the 3 years Ihave had teh CNC1000 I probably haven't called more than 5 timesbecasue their training has been great. For what it's worth, I'm noexpert, but we are producing some really nice 3 sided rings. Andlike Kevin said with his Revo mill, the day I got back from trainingI was making usable rings on my ModelMaster setup

Email off list if you have questions (zachary at Freshmans dot com).I'm sure GemVision has a nice product too, but I just don't likeseeing people bash ModelMaster because I'm a HUGE fan.

I don't post very often and I guess I'm a bit rusty at phrasing
things so they will not be taken out of context.

ModelMaster products are all VERY GOOD !!! There's no bones about it.
I myself am looking at Artcam to ad to my arsenel of tools as well. I
did not intend to begin a contest of who's better or what not, It has
nothing to do with that at all. My only point was that if you are
having a problem and the money you invested in this technology, you
should EXPECT good support and nothing less.

My advice would symply be to call the company and speak with them
about the training you recieved. If they Value you as a customer,
they should be willing to go out of their way to get you up and
running. If not there are some VERY GOOD outside options to get
help.

As someone else stated, there is DEFINATELY a learning curve to this
technology as there is with any. It will take time to learn
procedures and develope a system for integrating it into your
business. It will take time to learn how to Strategize when
designing to know what can and can't be done with the technology.

My personal choice was to go with Gemvision only because they
offered the shortest learning curve I could find for integrating that
technology which was my CHOICE. It fit my business goals and my
shortage of TIME to bring this exciting technology to my business.

So PLEASE this is not a contest of any sort. I do apologize if I've
offended anyone personally.

I would like to make some comments about a particular post made byDennis and his experience with Model Master. I found out thatDennis has been extremely high maintenance. He has made 13 calls,received over 6 hours of documented tech support from the mainoffice, and who knows how many calls he has made to his trainer. Iknow this is true because they log the calls.

Most of the problems he has had have been very easy to fix, but allhe really wants to do when he calls is complain about how thingssuck with the company.

I was so surprised when I read his post because my experience withModel Master is the exact opposite. I now have 2 of the MM Millsand they keep me producing more than I can handle. I consider MM tobe friends as they have always gone out of their way to help me. Iget so frustrated when I read a posting like that. The thing that Idon=92t understand about the posting Dennis made is that he stated hewas able to use Autocad. Well Autocad is a lot harder to use and itis nothing like artcam. It is more like Rhino and Matrix, and Iknow for a fact at least half of those users fail with it. ModelMaster has the knowledge and communication skills to help just aboutanyone.

Like Dennis, I am a jeweler and besides working with artcam, and theoccasional orchid post, that is as computer literate as I get. WhenI bought my first mill and went for my training I knew I was goingto have to work at the program, but when I had trouble understandingsomething, I didn=92t start crying and whining, this and that sucksabout MM. The guy even admits that he has done quite a bit with it. I=92m not sure if this guy thinks just because he paid for hismachine and software that MM were going to give him the =93magictouch=94 and he would be able to do everything all at once withouthaving to work at it. Anyway I don=92t mean to rant and rave, but Ihave some advice for anyone out there interested in CadCam. Do yourhomework, I think you will find there is no better product than whatyou get from MM, but you decide. Gain some basic computer skills,and for heavens sake when you get frustrated don=92t go on a publicforum saying this and that sucks about the company you bought itfrom. I would love to be a fly on the wall at MM next time Denniscalls for support. I know what I would tell him!

Well Zach, normally I wouldn't do this but in Dennis's defense, whatyou're saying is way off base.

You in your statements simply have proved my initial point. Everyone comes into this technology with varying degrees ofbackground and computer experience. Each software packageregardless of which one it is has it's own learning curve. Somepeople will demand more attention than others. It's admirable thatyou picked up the technology fairly easily. And you're right it willtake an investment of time to learn this stuff. But that in no waynegates the companies obligation to help the man out. You learningit on your own or as easily as you have just means you'll be able toapply the technology more efficiently resulting in better profits.Isn't that what it's all about. It's like when people who go BUY abook, some people will skim through and never read a champter. Somewill read a chapter or so and then never finish it. Some will readthe WHOLE thing and have it stimulate them in some way that createsa change that could lead to even monetary rewards.

The bottom line here is that it is completely irrelevant HOW MANYCALLS the guy makes to the company for support. THATS WHAT TECHSUPPORT is all about. If people in business have too thin a skinto except that maybe they have to make some changes, then nothinganyone says is going to help them. I don't want to see anyone inparticular leading the pack. Competition is what leads to GREATPRODUCTS no matter what it is. But for crying out loud CUSTOMERSERVICE is what accounts for GOOD business. So don't go dumping onthis guy when he's just frustrated when maybe you yourself couldhelp him in some way if you choose to do so.

By the way, unless you actually work for the company you shouldn'tmind criticism of the company you support when if they listen to thecomplaints and make changes, it only improves their position in themarket place. Heck I've been flogged myself in business andsometimes you have to swollow hard and ask yourself some empoweringquestions. How do I keep this from happening again?

None of this makes them evil demons in my book, on the contrary, itwill hopefully make them BETTER!

This is Dennis, I just wanted to let you all know what is going onfor me with ModelMaster. I received a phone call from Mike, one ofthe principals there. He was very concerned that I had hadproblems. We had a very constructive conversation. He hadn't beenaware of my problems, and was very interested in helping me. Idon't think that this was only because of my letter. I think thatif we had been able to speak earlier none of this would haveoccurred. I feel reassured about my working with them. For whateverreasons, I do believe that I had simply fallen thru the cracks andthis can happen to anyone anywhere. So... I feel that noweverything is going to work out great.

As I mentioned in my earlier letter I do like the program very muchand am very pleased with its abilities. I also think that the millworks very well.

I was able to start milling pieces successfully pretty quickly andthey are getting better and better. I look forward to learning moreand its going to be fine. I feel that we will have a very goodrelationship in the future. Thanks to those who wrote me and I willkeep in touch.

I should jump in here. I have been evaluating different jewelrycadcam systems for a bit in prep for purchase and have narrowed downto the two being discussed here. While interested in anyones opinion,I give more weight to those who use both programs. And it seems fromwhat I can tell, that they are both excellent.

Now everything that Mr. Kelly just said may be true. But if so, itleads to an even more disturbing thought than that of less thanstellar service. That ModelMaster would release to the public therecords of a customers calls for assistance is troubling to say theleast.

I would much rather read of the strengths of each program thanpersonal disagreements.

I have chimed in more than usual on this post due to the fact that Iam a huge Modelmaster Fan. The strengths I have found with them havebeen first and foremost, the training. The two days you will spendout there are great to get you rolling along and producing jewelryright away. You should know the basics of running wondows howeverbefore you go out there (saving, opening files, etc) or you will bewasting everyone's time and your money. You should also have alittle understanding of a drawing program such as CorelDRAW or thelike. This will allow you to focus on making jewelry, not learninghow to draw simple shapes.

I also really like how their setups grow. I went about 2 yearswithout really contacting them. I just cruised along and used theirsetup every day, and everything was peachy. Then at Tuscon this lastyear I met up with them and I was amazed at the new stuff they weredoing. Jewlesmith v6 was a huge improvement over ArtCAM v5 that Ihad, plus the 3 sided milling opened up new possibilites I hadthought baout, but never figured out. They don't sit still atModelMaster. Than has been my experience.

In regard to releasing customer's info, I am skeptical that's whathappened. When I was out there last winter to get some additionaltrainging, I saw a map that showed various locations around theworld they had set up. I noticed a few pushpins in my area. When Iasked, they very skillfully changed the subject. I took the hint anddroppped it. They have always been very professional in my opinion.

Bottom line both programs seem nice. Get examples of what you wantto do and have them demo to fit your needs. Both guys will demo whatthe software can do easily, get them do make it do what you need itto do. And by all means spend the money and see them in person at ashow

There, sorry for the long post, that's my 2 cents or maybe 4 cents.If you have any questions concerning my experiences with ModelMaster I'd be glad to answer them.

Yes it can. From what Cecily at Model master told me it is betterthan many programs at making STL's. I guess less chance of openingthem in another program and they are exploded. I dunno, I never hada problem with Rhino either.