It's perspective and how it's implemented. Should kids be punished? Yes, if its necessary. Should they be beaten? No. Beating isn't done for correction with love. Corporal punishment, when done correctly, is.

I once knew a dog breeder who, when the puppies were first let out of the house, would take each one to the paved road and rub their paw pads until they were raw. Most people would be horrified at this, as I was until she explained why. She had lost many dogs on the road by getting run over. She loved each one as a family member. Since she started the paw rub, none of them ever went out into the road even if they got out of the house on their own.

I don't suggest rubbing kids feet on the road, but a good old fashioned spanking does wonders to keep them out of the street. Not a beating out of anger, but a corrective action done for the sake of the child.

Spanking is not abuse. Beating them up is. I wish people would learn the difference.

Yes, rubbing puppies' paws raw is animal abuse, especially because she could have gotten a fence or kept them indoors. What would the dog whisperer on TV say about this?

As St Augustine pointed out, adults make the same kind of mistakes as kids. Would you like an "old fashioned spanking" with "old fashioned" instruments until you are crying?This is messed up.

Regardless of deniomination, or religion. this man was once more correct.We all sin the same way. But in different times. Also, I have yet to see any 5 year old for instance, raping someone, like many adults do.

Ever heard of a place called "The Congo". It's kinda like Neverneverland in that kids kill and rape and never grow old!

It's perspective and how it's implemented. Should kids be punished? Yes, if its necessary. Should they be beaten? No. Beating isn't done for correction with love. Corporal punishment, when done correctly, is.

I once knew a dog breeder who, when the puppies were first let out of the house, would take each one to the paved road and rub their paw pads until they were raw. Most people would be horrified at this, as I was until she explained why. She had lost many dogs on the road by getting run over. She loved each one as a family member. Since she started the paw rub, none of them ever went out into the road even if they got out of the house on their own.

I don't suggest rubbing kids feet on the road, but a good old fashioned spanking does wonders to keep them out of the street. Not a beating out of anger, but a corrective action done for the sake of the child.

Spanking is not abuse. Beating them up is. I wish people would learn the difference.

Yes, rubbing puppies' paws raw is animal abuse, especially because she could have gotten a fence or kept them indoors. What would the dog whisperer on TV say about this?

As St Augustine pointed out, adults make the same kind of mistakes as kids. Would you like an "old fashioned spanking" with "old fashioned" instruments until you are crying?This is messed up.

Regardless of deniomination, or religion. this man was once more correct.We all sin the same way. But in different times. Also, I have yet to see any 5 year old for instance, raping someone, like many adults do.

Ever heard of a place called "The Congo". It's kinda like Neverneverland in that kids kill and rape and never grow old!

Ah yes, the innocence of youth. I bet this kid will take a "time out" real well.

Logged

I would be happy to agree with you, but then both of us would be wrong.

It's perspective and how it's implemented. Should kids be punished? Yes, if its necessary. Should they be beaten? No. Beating isn't done for correction with love. Corporal punishment, when done correctly, is.

I once knew a dog breeder who, when the puppies were first let out of the house, would take each one to the paved road and rub their paw pads until they were raw. Most people would be horrified at this, as I was until she explained why. She had lost many dogs on the road by getting run over. She loved each one as a family member. Since she started the paw rub, none of them ever went out into the road even if they got out of the house on their own.

I don't suggest rubbing kids feet on the road, but a good old fashioned spanking does wonders to keep them out of the street. Not a beating out of anger, but a corrective action done for the sake of the child.

Spanking is not abuse. Beating them up is. I wish people would learn the difference.

Yes, rubbing puppies' paws raw is animal abuse, especially because she could have gotten a fence or kept them indoors. What would the dog whisperer on TV say about this?

As St Augustine pointed out, adults make the same kind of mistakes as kids. Would you like an "old fashioned spanking" with "old fashioned" instruments until you are crying?This is messed up.

Regardless of deniomination, or religion. this man was once more correct.We all sin the same way. But in different times. Also, I have yet to see any 5 year old for instance, raping someone, like many adults do.

Ever heard of a place called "The Congo". It's kinda like Neverneverland in that kids kill and rape and never grow old!

Ah yes, the innocence of youth. I bet this kid will take a "time out" real well.

I wonder if that's one of General Butt Naked's "men"? He has to be the most colourful generals of the 20-21st Century.

Would you like an "old fashioned spanking" with "old fashioned" instruments until you are crying?

Compared to the punishments that adults and young adults alike have to face, I think that an old fashioned spanking until I was crying would actually be better compared to the alternative. When children act up, they get a whipping to the behind and then an hour later they are happy again and playing. When an adult screws up, they lose their job, have to pay money in restorations, go to jail, get beaten up or even end up losing their lives. A spanking would actually be graceful. Would you rather children who commit adult offenses be punished with the same aforementioned consequences that adults have to face? No. A spanking is actually an act of grace compared to what we would face as adults.

It's perspective and how it's implemented. Should kids be punished? Yes, if its necessary. Should they be beaten? No. Beating isn't done for correction with love. Corporal punishment, when done correctly, is.

I once knew a dog breeder who, when the puppies were first let out of the house, would take each one to the paved road and rub their paw pads until they were raw. Most people would be horrified at this, as I was until she explained why. She had lost many dogs on the road by getting run over. She loved each one as a family member. Since she started the paw rub, none of them ever went out into the road even if they got out of the house on their own.

I don't suggest rubbing kids feet on the road, but a good old fashioned spanking does wonders to keep them out of the street. Not a beating out of anger, but a corrective action done for the sake of the child.

Spanking is not abuse. Beating them up is. I wish people would learn the difference.

Yes, rubbing puppies' paws raw is animal abuse, especially because she could have gotten a fence or kept them indoors. What would the dog whisperer on TV say about this?

As St Augustine pointed out, adults make the same kind of mistakes as kids. Would you like an "old fashioned spanking" with "old fashioned" instruments until you are crying?This is messed up.

It's it amazing and wonderful how we each get to express our opinions on the matter without an undertone of judgement...

It's perspective and how it's implemented. Should kids be punished? Yes, if its necessary. Should they be beaten? No. Beating isn't done for correction with love. Corporal punishment, when done correctly, is.

I once knew a dog breeder who, when the puppies were first let out of the house, would take each one to the paved road and rub their paw pads until they were raw. Most people would be horrified at this, as I was until she explained why. She had lost many dogs on the road by getting run over. She loved each one as a family member. Since she started the paw rub, none of them ever went out into the road even if they got out of the house on their own.

I don't suggest rubbing kids feet on the road, but a good old fashioned spanking does wonders to keep them out of the street. Not a beating out of anger, but a corrective action done for the sake of the child.

Spanking is not abuse. Beating them up is. I wish people would learn the difference.

Yes, rubbing puppies' paws raw is animal abuse, especially because she could have gotten a fence or kept them indoors. What would the dog whisperer on TV say about this?

As St Augustine pointed out, adults make the same kind of mistakes as kids. Would you like an "old fashioned spanking" with "old fashioned" instruments until you are crying?This is messed up.

Regardless of deniomination, or religion. this man was once more correct.We all sin the same way. But in different times. Also, I have yet to see any 5 year old for instance, raping someone, like many adults do.

Ever heard of a place called "The Congo". It's kinda like Neverneverland in that kids kill and rape and never grow old!

Ah yes, the innocence of youth. I bet this kid will take a "time out" real well.

I wonder if that's one of General Butt Naked's "men"? He has to be the most colourful generals of the 20-21st Century.

Where is Mad Mike Hoare when we need him . . .

Logged

I would be happy to agree with you, but then both of us would be wrong.

Would you like an "old fashioned spanking" with "old fashioned" instruments until you are crying?

Compared to the punishments that adults and young adults alike have to face, I think that an old fashioned spanking until I was crying would actually be better compared to the alternative.

I disagree. Better to be a stable boy on a poor man's farm than a whipping boy in a prince's court. Better to be friends with geeks than to be hazed daily by the "cool kids". Better to be a servant to God than a slave to any man.

Quote

When children act up, they get a whipping to the behind and then an hour later they are happy again and playing.

It depends on the whipping. It is common for students beaten in US highschools to have pain for a week. Maybe it looks like they are doing recreation, but they are also in pain.

Quote

When an adult screws up, they lose their job, have to pay money in restorations, go to jail, get beaten up or even end up losing their lives.

You are comparing things that range from better (paying fines) to much worse (death) and then concludes that since adults may undergo a whole range of things- legal and illegal- it is OK for children to be caused intense pain.

Quote

A spanking would actually be graceful.

No it would not, James.

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Police Chief Suspended Over Alleged Spankings

Woolf said Martin told her that her son Richard's participation in a juvenile diversion program that included paddling would make his speeding ticket "go away."

She said that during the first session in January, at the police station, her son was struck three times on the bare buttocks with a wooden paddle.

Would you like an "old fashioned spanking" with "old fashioned" instruments until you are crying?

Compared to the punishments that adults and young adults alike have to face, I think that an old fashioned spanking until I was crying would actually be better compared to the alternative.

I disagree. Better to be a stable boy on a poor man's farm than a whipping boy in a prince's court. Better to be friends with geeks than to be hazed daily by the "cool kids". Better to be a servant to God than a slave to any man.

Would you like an "old fashioned spanking" with "old fashioned" instruments until you are crying?

Compared to the punishments that adults and young adults alike have to face, I think that an old fashioned spanking until I was crying would actually be better compared to the alternative.

I disagree. Better to be a stable boy on a poor man's farm than a whipping boy in a prince's court. Better to be friends with geeks than to be hazed daily by the "cool kids". Better to be a servant to God than a slave to any man.

absolutely to that comment.

Except for the fact that it's completely non sequitur. How does being a disciplined child compare with being hazed in school or beaten by a slave master?

Would you like an "old fashioned spanking" with "old fashioned" instruments until you are crying?

Compared to the punishments that adults and young adults alike have to face, I think that an old fashioned spanking until I was crying would actually be better compared to the alternative.

I disagree. Better to be a stable boy on a poor man's farm than a whipping boy in a prince's court. Better to be friends with geeks than to be hazed daily by the "cool kids". Better to be a servant to God than a slave to any man.

absolutely to that comment.

Except for the fact that it's completely non sequitur. How does being a disciplined child compare with being hazed in school or beaten by a slave master?

So I ask rakovsky again, how do you discipline your kids?

Those things don't compare, but it sure gets the emotions going when someone says something like that.

Would you like an "old fashioned spanking" with "old fashioned" instruments until you are crying?

Compared to the punishments that adults and young adults alike have to face, I think that an old fashioned spanking until I was crying would actually be better compared to the alternative. When children act up, they get a whipping to the behind and then an hour later they are happy again and playing. When an adult screws up, they lose their job, have to pay money in restorations, go to jail, get beaten up or even end up losing their lives. A spanking would actually be graceful. Would you rather children who commit adult offenses be punished with the same aforementioned consequences that adults have to face? No. A spanking is actually an act of grace compared to what we would face as adults.

Me too!

I was whooped when I was a child. I still respect and speak with my parents at least every other day!

Would you like an "old fashioned spanking" with "old fashioned" instruments until you are crying?

Compared to the punishments that adults and young adults alike have to face, I think that an old fashioned spanking until I was crying would actually be better compared to the alternative. When children act up, they get a whipping to the behind and then an hour later they are happy again and playing. When an adult screws up, they lose their job, have to pay money in restorations, go to jail, get beaten up or even end up losing their lives. A spanking would actually be graceful. Would you rather children who commit adult offenses be punished with the same aforementioned consequences that adults have to face? No. A spanking is actually an act of grace compared to what we would face as adults.

Me too!

I was whooped when I was a child. I still respect and speak with my parents at least every other day!

Wait, so you two also were disciplined by your parents when you acted like little urchins? And you still can talk to your parents too? I'm not the only one? Perhaps we should start a support group for other members of the forum who also were spanked by their parents and turned out for the better. This sort of thing really must no longer be tolerated!

Would you like an "old fashioned spanking" with "old fashioned" instruments until you are crying?

Compared to the punishments that adults and young adults alike have to face, I think that an old fashioned spanking until I was crying would actually be better compared to the alternative. When children act up, they get a whipping to the behind and then an hour later they are happy again and playing. When an adult screws up, they lose their job, have to pay money in restorations, go to jail, get beaten up or even end up losing their lives. A spanking would actually be graceful. Would you rather children who commit adult offenses be punished with the same aforementioned consequences that adults have to face? No. A spanking is actually an act of grace compared to what we would face as adults.

Me too!

I was whooped when I was a child. I still respect and speak with my parents at least every other day!

Wait, so you two also were disciplined by your parents when you acted like little urchins? And you still can talk to your parents too? I'm not the only one? Perhaps we should start a support group for other members of the forum who also were spanked by their parents and turned out for the better. This sort of thing really must no longer be tolerated!

No. I did it once each with my two eldest - many, many years ago - and immediately after the second time concluded that it served no useful purpose. Time outs with the occasional grounding or confiscation of a treasured item worked much better - better yet was expressing disappointment and talking about why we were disappointed.

End result? 7 well-adjusted, well-spoken, well-educated, socially conscious, polite children, ranging from 9 to 36 years, who love God, their parents, one another, themselves, and people in general and who make me proud most every day of their lives. Thank You, God.

Many years,

Neil

Logged

"Not only is it unnecessary to adopt the customs of the Latin Rite to manifest one's Catholicism, it is an offense against the unity of the Church."

No. I did it once each with my two eldest - many, many years ago - and immediately after the second time concluded that it served no useful purpose. Time outs with the occasional grounding or confiscation of a treasured item worked much better - better yet was expressing disappointment and talking about why we were disappointed.

End result? 7 well-adjusted, well-spoken, well-educated, socially conscious, polite children, ranging from 9 to 36 years, who love God, their parents, one another, themselves, and people in general and who make me proud most every day of their lives. Thank You, God.

Many years,

Neil

Thank you for sharing, Neil. That was kind of you to turn to raising your kids that way.

Thank you!

« Last Edit: December 06, 2012, 10:35:56 AM by rakovsky »

Logged

The ocean, impassable by men, and the world beyond it are directed by the same ordinances of the Master. ~ I Clement 20

No. I did it once each with my two eldest - many, many years ago - and immediately after the second time concluded that it served no useful purpose. Time outs with the occasional grounding or confiscation of a treasured item worked much better - better yet was expressing disappointment and talking about why we were disappointed.

End result? 7 well-adjusted, well-spoken, well-educated, socially conscious, polite children, ranging from 9 to 36 years, who love God, their parents, one another, themselves, and people in general and who make me proud most every day of their lives. Thank You, God.

Many years,

Neil

Thank you for sharing, Neil. That was kind of you to turn to raising your kids that way.

Thank you!

Agreed.

Logged

Baptized with my husband and our four year old daughter on May 4, 2013

No. I did it once each with my two eldest - many, many years ago - and immediately after the second time concluded that it served no useful purpose. Time outs with the occasional grounding or confiscation of a treasured item worked much better - better yet was expressing disappointment and talking about why we were disappointed.

End result? 7 well-adjusted, well-spoken, well-educated, socially conscious, polite children, ranging from 9 to 36 years, who love God, their parents, one another, themselves, and people in general and who make me proud most every day of their lives. Thank You, God.

Many years,

Neil

Irish, of course it is ineffective with some children. I sure as heck aren't going to tell someone their methods don't work when they have evidence seven times over. But also thank God that you didn't have me or my brothers! We loved and respected our parents, still do, in fact. But there were times when their disappointment wasn't sufficient so the cooking spoon had to get disappointed as well. As much as we loved our parents, we tended to respect the spoon of judgement even more.

How many opposed to spanking have kids? If you don't have kids, your opinion is mostly moot.

Technically, the same could be said for the pro-spankers. The difference I am seeing with the pro-spankers is that they aren't arguing that you should spank your kids, but rather accept the opinions of those who do have kids and have found the need to spank them.

Those that do have kids and have not found the need to spank them AND who can with a clear conscience say that they didn't turn out to be hellions should be thanking God (like Irish Melkite did above). When God gives you docile and obedient children who do not need to be disciplined more fiercely than with a strong word it is a gracious gift and not something that makes you in any way morally superior to those who have not been blessed with this boon.

How many opposed to spanking have kids? If you don't have kids, your opinion is mostly moot.

Technically, the same could be said for the pro-spankers. The difference I am seeing with the pro-spankers is that they aren't arguing that you should spank your kids, but rather accept the opinions of those who do have kids and have found the need to spank them.

Those that do have kids and have not found the need to spank them AND who can with a clear conscience say that they didn't turn out to be hellions should be thanking God (like Irish Melkite did above). When God gives you docile and obedient children who do not need to be disciplined more fiercely than with a strong word it is a gracious gift and not something that makes you in any way morally superior to those who have not been blessed with this boon.

I don't feel that I'm morally superior, but I do not think that spanking or hitting improves behavior for the right reasons.As I come from a Protestant-Evangelical background that not only embraced spanking, but often mandated it by saying it was a Biblical issue, I think it is important for us as Orthodox to explore non-violent (aka Christlike), effective means of discipline with our children. I think that not only will children benefit from this, but I think this can allow for a lot of growth in us, as parents.

Logged

Baptized with my husband and our four year old daughter on May 4, 2013

How many opposed to spanking have kids? If you don't have kids, your opinion is mostly moot.

Technically, the same could be said for the pro-spankers. The difference I am seeing with the pro-spankers is that they aren't arguing that you should spank your kids, but rather accept the opinions of those who do have kids and have found the need to spank them.

Those that do have kids and have not found the need to spank them AND who can with a clear conscience say that they didn't turn out to be hellions should be thanking God (like Irish Melkite did above). When God gives you docile and obedient children who do not need to be disciplined more fiercely than with a strong word it is a gracious gift and not something that makes you in any way morally superior to those who have not been blessed with this boon.

I don't feel that I'm morally superior, but I do not think that spanking or hitting improves behavior for the right reasons.As I come from a Protestant-Evangelical background that not only embraced spanking, but often mandated it by saying it was a Biblical issue, I think it is important for us as Orthodox to explore non-violent (aka Christlike), effective means of discipline with our children. I think that not only will children benefit from this, but I think this can allow for a lot of growth in us, as parents.

non-violent does not equal Christlike.

Christlike is giving the little hellion the lash when he plays with money in Church.

How many opposed to spanking have kids? If you don't have kids, your opinion is mostly moot.

Technically, the same could be said for the pro-spankers. The difference I am seeing with the pro-spankers is that they aren't arguing that you should spank your kids, but rather accept the opinions of those who do have kids and have found the need to spank them.

Those that do have kids and have not found the need to spank them AND who can with a clear conscience say that they didn't turn out to be hellions should be thanking God (like Irish Melkite did above). When God gives you docile and obedient children who do not need to be disciplined more fiercely than with a strong word it is a gracious gift and not something that makes you in any way morally superior to those who have not been blessed with this boon.

Logged

I would be happy to agree with you, but then both of us would be wrong.

How many opposed to spanking have kids? If you don't have kids, your opinion is mostly moot.

Technically, the same could be said for the pro-spankers. The difference I am seeing with the pro-spankers is that they aren't arguing that you should spank your kids, but rather accept the opinions of those who do have kids and have found the need to spank them.

Those that do have kids and have not found the need to spank them AND who can with a clear conscience say that they didn't turn out to be hellions should be thanking God (like Irish Melkite did above). When God gives you docile and obedient children who do not need to be disciplined more fiercely than with a strong word it is a gracious gift and not something that makes you in any way morally superior to those who have not been blessed with this boon.

How many opposed to spanking have kids? If you don't have kids, your opinion is mostly moot.

Technically, the same could be said for the pro-spankers. The difference I am seeing with the pro-spankers is that they aren't arguing that you should spank your kids, but rather accept the opinions of those who do have kids and have found the need to spank them.

Those that do have kids and have not found the need to spank them AND who can with a clear conscience say that they didn't turn out to be hellions should be thanking God (like Irish Melkite did above). When God gives you docile and obedient children who do not need to be disciplined more fiercely than with a strong word it is a gracious gift and not something that makes you in any way morally superior to those who have not been blessed with this boon.

I don't feel that I'm morally superior, but I do not think that spanking or hitting improves behavior for the right reasons.As I come from a Protestant-Evangelical background that not only embraced spanking, but often mandated it by saying it was a Biblical issue, I think it is important for us as Orthodox to explore non-violent (aka Christlike), effective means of discipline with our children. I think that not only will children benefit from this, but I think this can allow for a lot of growth in us, as parents.

Now you are going to be bombarded with how christ used the whip to clear the house of prayers from the idiots who turned it into a den of thieves. As if he was referring to how to discipline children. Seriously some people really need psychotherapy, if they think that this incident is an example of how to discipline children.Sadly though some people view it that way.

If you will, you can become all flame.Extra caritatem nulla salus.In order to become whole, take the "I" out of "holiness". सर्वभूतहितἌνω σχῶμεν τὰς καρδίας"Those who say religion has nothing to do with politics do not know what religion is." -- Mohandas GandhiY dduw bo'r diolch.

How many opposed to spanking have kids? If you don't have kids, your opinion is mostly moot.

Technically, the same could be said for the pro-spankers. The difference I am seeing with the pro-spankers is that they aren't arguing that you should spank your kids, but rather accept the opinions of those who do have kids and have found the need to spank them.

Those that do have kids and have not found the need to spank them AND who can with a clear conscience say that they didn't turn out to be hellions should be thanking God (like Irish Melkite did above). When God gives you docile and obedient children who do not need to be disciplined more fiercely than with a strong word it is a gracious gift and not something that makes you in any way morally superior to those who have not been blessed with this boon.

I don't feel that I'm morally superior, but I do not think that spanking or hitting improves behavior for the right reasons.As I come from a Protestant-Evangelical background that not only embraced spanking, but often mandated it by saying it was a Biblical issue, I think it is important for us as Orthodox to explore non-violent (aka Christlike), effective means of discipline with our children. I think that not only will children benefit from this, but I think this can allow for a lot of growth in us, as parents.

Now you are going to be bombarded with how christ used the whip to clear the house of prayers from the idiots who turned it into a den of thieves. As if he was referring to how to discipline children. Seriously some people really need psychotherapy, if they think that this incident is an example of how to discipline children.Sadly though some people view it that way.

Right. The root word of discipline is disciple, and I hardly think the Lord was much besides graceful and gentle with the ignorant and still-learning.We are all still learning. Lest anyone think that I have a perfectly docile child, she acted like a butthead at least twice today, and though it was difficult, I controlled the annoyance I felt from her actions and helped her figure out what she could do instead of acting like a butthead. And she knew I was getting frustrated, but I didn't hit or spank her. Now she's curled up next to me.When I made an effort to use my words with her instead of my hand, her vocabulary and apparent EQ increased significantly.

Logged

Baptized with my husband and our four year old daughter on May 4, 2013

How many opposed to spanking have kids? If you don't have kids, your opinion is mostly moot.

Technically, the same could be said for the pro-spankers. The difference I am seeing with the pro-spankers is that they aren't arguing that you should spank your kids, but rather accept the opinions of those who do have kids and have found the need to spank them.

Those that do have kids and have not found the need to spank them AND who can with a clear conscience say that they didn't turn out to be hellions should be thanking God (like Irish Melkite did above). When God gives you docile and obedient children who do not need to be disciplined more fiercely than with a strong word it is a gracious gift and not something that makes you in any way morally superior to those who have not been blessed with this boon.

I don't feel that I'm morally superior, but I do not think that spanking or hitting improves behavior for the right reasons.As I come from a Protestant-Evangelical background that not only embraced spanking, but often mandated it by saying it was a Biblical issue, I think it is important for us as Orthodox to explore non-violent (aka Christlike), effective means of discipline with our children. I think that not only will children benefit from this, but I think this can allow for a lot of growth in us, as parents.

non-violent does not equal Christlike.

Christlike is giving the little hellion the lash when he plays with money in Church.

I'm sure there are plenty of rapists and murderers who can look back to the times when Mom and Dad used to row the daylights out of them, and say, "That really helped!"

How many opposed to spanking have kids? If you don't have kids, your opinion is mostly moot.

Technically, the same could be said for the pro-spankers. The difference I am seeing with the pro-spankers is that they aren't arguing that you should spank your kids, but rather accept the opinions of those who do have kids and have found the need to spank them.

Those that do have kids and have not found the need to spank them AND who can with a clear conscience say that they didn't turn out to be hellions should be thanking God (like Irish Melkite did above). When God gives you docile and obedient children who do not need to be disciplined more fiercely than with a strong word it is a gracious gift and not something that makes you in any way morally superior to those who have not been blessed with this boon.

I don't feel that I'm morally superior, but I do not think that spanking or hitting improves behavior for the right reasons.As I come from a Protestant-Evangelical background that not only embraced spanking, but often mandated it by saying it was a Biblical issue, I think it is important for us as Orthodox to explore non-violent (aka Christlike), effective means of discipline with our children. I think that not only will children benefit from this, but I think this can allow for a lot of growth in us, as parents.

non-violent does not equal Christlike.

Christlike is giving the little hellion the lash when he plays with money in Church.

I'm sure there are plenty of rapists and murderers who can look back to the times when Mom and Dad used to row the daylights out of them, and say, "That really helped!"

How many opposed to spanking have kids? If you don't have kids, your opinion is mostly moot.

Technically, the same could be said for the pro-spankers. The difference I am seeing with the pro-spankers is that they aren't arguing that you should spank your kids, but rather accept the opinions of those who do have kids and have found the need to spank them.

Those that do have kids and have not found the need to spank them AND who can with a clear conscience say that they didn't turn out to be hellions should be thanking God (like Irish Melkite did above). When God gives you docile and obedient children who do not need to be disciplined more fiercely than with a strong word it is a gracious gift and not something that makes you in any way morally superior to those who have not been blessed with this boon.

I don't feel that I'm morally superior, but I do not think that spanking or hitting improves behavior for the right reasons.As I come from a Protestant-Evangelical background that not only embraced spanking, but often mandated it by saying it was a Biblical issue, I think it is important for us as Orthodox to explore non-violent (aka Christlike), effective means of discipline with our children. I think that not only will children benefit from this, but I think this can allow for a lot of growth in us, as parents.

non-violent does not equal Christlike.

Christlike is giving the little hellion the lash when he plays with money in Church.

I'm sure there are plenty of rapists and murderers who can look back to the times when Mom and Dad used to row the daylights out of them, and say, "That really helped!"

How many opposed to spanking have kids? If you don't have kids, your opinion is mostly moot.

Technically, the same could be said for the pro-spankers. The difference I am seeing with the pro-spankers is that they aren't arguing that you should spank your kids, but rather accept the opinions of those who do have kids and have found the need to spank them.

Those that do have kids and have not found the need to spank them AND who can with a clear conscience say that they didn't turn out to be hellions should be thanking God (like Irish Melkite did above). When God gives you docile and obedient children who do not need to be disciplined more fiercely than with a strong word it is a gracious gift and not something that makes you in any way morally superior to those who have not been blessed with this boon.

I don't feel that I'm morally superior, but I do not think that spanking or hitting improves behavior for the right reasons.As I come from a Protestant-Evangelical background that not only embraced spanking, but often mandated it by saying it was a Biblical issue, I think it is important for us as Orthodox to explore non-violent (aka Christlike), effective means of discipline with our children. I think that not only will children benefit from this, but I think this can allow for a lot of growth in us, as parents.

Now you are going to be bombarded with how christ used the whip to clear the house of prayers from the idiots who turned it into a den of thieves. As if he was referring to how to discipline children. Seriously some people really need psychotherapy, if they think that this incident is an example of how to discipline children.Sadly though some people view it that way.

Right. The root word of discipline is disciple, and I hardly think the Lord was much besides graceful and gentle with the ignorant and still-learning.We are all still learning. Lest anyone think that I have a perfectly docile child, she acted like a butthead at least twice today, and though it was difficult, I controlled the annoyance I felt from her actions and helped her figure out what she could do instead of acting like a butthead. And she knew I was getting frustrated, but I didn't hit or spank her. Now she's curled up next to me.When I made an effort to use my words with her instead of my hand, her vocabulary and apparent EQ increased significantly.

How many opposed to spanking have kids? If you don't have kids, your opinion is mostly moot.

Technically, the same could be said for the pro-spankers. The difference I am seeing with the pro-spankers is that they aren't arguing that you should spank your kids, but rather accept the opinions of those who do have kids and have found the need to spank them.

Those that do have kids and have not found the need to spank them AND who can with a clear conscience say that they didn't turn out to be hellions should be thanking God (like Irish Melkite did above). When God gives you docile and obedient children who do not need to be disciplined more fiercely than with a strong word it is a gracious gift and not something that makes you in any way morally superior to those who have not been blessed with this boon.

I don't feel that I'm morally superior, but I do not think that spanking or hitting improves behavior for the right reasons.As I come from a Protestant-Evangelical background that not only embraced spanking, but often mandated it by saying it was a Biblical issue, I think it is important for us as Orthodox to explore non-violent (aka Christlike), effective means of discipline with our children. I think that not only will children benefit from this, but I think this can allow for a lot of growth in us, as parents.

non-violent does not equal Christlike.

Christlike is giving the little hellion the lash when he plays with money in Church.

I'm sure there are plenty of rapists and murderers who can look back to the times when Mom and Dad used to row the daylights out of them, and say, "That really helped!"

I'm confused where this statement has any rational connection with spanking or not spanking children. Unless we are just making random comments...like, "I'm sure there are plenty of rapists and murderers who can look back to the times when Mom and Dad never spanked them and said, "I wished they had."

Those that do have kids and have not found the need to spank them AND who can with a clear conscience say that they didn't turn out to be hellions should be thanking God (like Irish Melkite did above). When God gives you docile and obedient children who do not need to be disciplined more fiercely than with a strong word it is a gracious gift and not something that makes you in any way morally superior to those who have not been blessed with this boon.

I certainly feel no moral superiority over much of anyone. God has blessed me with children who exhibit all of the good qualities that I cited above - but He certainly didn't include in that blessing anything approaching docility on their part. Personality-wise, they span a spectrum but not a one of them is without a healthy dose of outspokenness that manifests itself both as self-esteem and as a willingness to stand up and be counted in defense of anyone they perceive as an underdog. Their Irish and Scots heritage is manifested in more than their red and blond locks; their tempers and dogged stubbornness mirror those traits in their Dad and don't always serve their own best interests. But, they're fiercely bound to the notion that, at the end of the day, one must never walk away with anger in one's heart or leave anyone with angry words being the last thing they heard.

As far as the harm that spanking inflicts on anyone, I am firmly of the opinion that some, who would never allow themselves to physically strike a child, do incredibly more harm to their children with words - words that they consider to be emblematic of loving discipline but which actually cut to the quick and devastate the one on whom they're inflicted. I know people whom I wish would physically discipline their children because I'm certain that it would be administered much more gently than the verbal thrashings which are standard fare for all manner of transgressions.

But, in either instance, the ultimate problem lies in timing. As some have mentioned, one should never punish a child in the heat of anger, as therein lies the danger of being truly abusive. But, just as is the case with animals, punishment that lacks immediacy is inherently ineffective. When time - a cooling off period, if you will - intervenes between the events that merit punishment and its administration, there is a mental disconnect between the two in the child's mind, the point is lost, and it comes to be perceived as just outright meanness on the punisher's part.

That, to me, is the strongest argument for alternative, creative, disciplinary methods to be employed - in the immediate aftermath of the circumstances that merited them. "You did this and there is a consequence, which you must face - now."

Many years,

Neil

Logged

"Not only is it unnecessary to adopt the customs of the Latin Rite to manifest one's Catholicism, it is an offense against the unity of the Church."

How many opposed to spanking have kids? If you don't have kids, your opinion is mostly moot.

Technically, the same could be said for the pro-spankers. The difference I am seeing with the pro-spankers is that they aren't arguing that you should spank your kids, but rather accept the opinions of those who do have kids and have found the need to spank them.

Those that do have kids and have not found the need to spank them AND who can with a clear conscience say that they didn't turn out to be hellions should be thanking God (like Irish Melkite did above). When God gives you docile and obedient children who do not need to be disciplined more fiercely than with a strong word it is a gracious gift and not something that makes you in any way morally superior to those who have not been blessed with this boon.

I don't feel that I'm morally superior, but I do not think that spanking or hitting improves behavior for the right reasons.As I come from a Protestant-Evangelical background that not only embraced spanking, but often mandated it by saying it was a Biblical issue, I think it is important for us as Orthodox to explore non-violent (aka Christlike), effective means of discipline with our children. I think that not only will children benefit from this, but I think this can allow for a lot of growth in us, as parents.

non-violent does not equal Christlike.

True. But then again. I never saw Jesus Spanking little children. However, I have seen many using the fact that he tried to whip those idiots who turned his father's house into a den of thieves. As an excuse to justify hitting their children.

How many opposed to spanking have kids? If you don't have kids, your opinion is mostly moot.

Technically, the same could be said for the pro-spankers. The difference I am seeing with the pro-spankers is that they aren't arguing that you should spank your kids, but rather accept the opinions of those who do have kids and have found the need to spank them.

Those that do have kids and have not found the need to spank them AND who can with a clear conscience say that they didn't turn out to be hellions should be thanking God (like Irish Melkite did above). When God gives you docile and obedient children who do not need to be disciplined more fiercely than with a strong word it is a gracious gift and not something that makes you in any way morally superior to those who have not been blessed with this boon.

I don't feel that I'm morally superior, but I do not think that spanking or hitting improves behavior for the right reasons.As I come from a Protestant-Evangelical background that not only embraced spanking, but often mandated it by saying it was a Biblical issue, I think it is important for us as Orthodox to explore non-violent (aka Christlike), effective means of discipline with our children. I think that not only will children benefit from this, but I think this can allow for a lot of growth in us, as parents.

non-violent does not equal Christlike.

True. But then again. I never saw Jesus Spanking little children. However, I have seen many using the fact that he tried to whip those idiots who turned his father's house into a den of thieves. As an excuse to justify hitting their children.

Jesus never had any biological children to spank. Spiritually, we are all His children and are sometimes punished much more severely than a paddling.