Post by warehamgas on Sept 22, 2017 22:25:03 GMT

Very early to start a thread I know but Somerset have just lost and look likely to go down with other results going against us so im trying to ignore relegation and focus on England!! Thought that I'd start the thread to include thoughts about the squad which will be announced on Wednesday. Who do you think will be in the squad?My choice for what it's worth is.....CookStonemanHameed WestleyRoot BalanceHales

BairstowButtler

Moeen AliRashid

StokesWoakesAndersonBroadWood (Now Roland-Jones is out)

This is the group I'd take. Obviously if we could persuade Sangakarra to change nationality to become English before Wednesday then I'd take him instead of Westley, but it's unlikely to happen so I will take Westley reluctantly rather than Jennings. I have chosen Hameed hoping he will be fit. Although he has a broken finger the fact he came out to bat for Lancs against Hampshire makes me think it might not be as serious as to keep him out for too long. If Hameed can't go then we take Jennings. However, although this is the squad I'd take I think the selectors might go for Foakes of Surrey instead of Buttler as second keeper and take Crane instead of Rashid as second spinner. I'd really like to take Leach but think Rashid deserves his test chance as he's done nothing wrong. As for Crane I must not be able to see what others can, it's a bit like the emperor's new clothes, everyone says how good he is but I've seen him a few times live and still don't get it.

Post by jackthegas on Sept 25, 2017 20:46:19 GMT

The Times were reporting that Vince has "earned" a recall earlier on today.

Ultimately there are 8 players nailed on to play if they are fit and Stoneman is as good as too. As for the last two batsmen and reserves well it's a names out of a hat job isn't it?

Based on what I've seen this year (and cricket is one of the few sports where judging a player is easier on TV than it is live in my opinion) I would like Robson to bat at 3 and Ballance at 5. Robson has had a decent season and was bought up in Australia and Ballance offers us a bit of solidity in the middle order. Not expecting anyone to be a world beater but two players who could average mid 30s would make a big difference. I'd have Malan and Hales in the squad but you really could pick four from 15 and just cross everything. Rashid should be the backup spinner with Crane and Leach playing for the lions. Buttler has barely scored a run for Lancs so I think I'd take Foakes as the reserve keeper. If TRJ is injured then Ball and probably two from Finn, Wood or Overton I guess depending on fitness.

Post by irishrover on Sept 25, 2017 22:44:46 GMT

The Times were reporting that Vince has "earned" a recall earlier on today.

Really? That seems a bit odd all things considered.

How many do I get? I always forget! I'll go with the 16 precedent that Wareham established but in theory they could take as many as they want right? They could take any number of unproven Test players! Some of the exercise always feels a bit arbritary because of that - a bit of a throwback to the 'who makes the boat?' kind of era when this stuff was really critical. Not a lot you can do if your top 3 are out of form or injured and the next best guys are 3 weeks boat journey away! These days I don't think it should carry quite as much weight as it seems. For example, say Hameed goes on the Lions, bangs a couple of hundreds while our top order fails (and before I haven't checked the series a concurrent so this could be purely hypothetical) why shouldn't England then call him up? I actually wonder if those players around the fringes may in fact be better off for their career prospects to do exactly that - go on a Lions tour and bang a few runs that makes them look good in comparison to players struggling in an Ashes series. Always felt a bit sorry for Carberry in that regard - only really ever got a run in a flippin difficult Ashes series and, in the context, did OK. He may well have not been good enough but it's not exactly a fair crack of the whip compared with others.

Let's start with the 'no-brainers'; literally in the case of some of them it seems'

Root

Cook

Stokes

Bairstow (Clearly a guaranteed name on the lineup but I don't feel he had a great summer - I know he had a fantastic run but I sometimes feel that it's been decreed from on high that his place is never questioned now and I'm not sure he's quite done enough to be beyond all doubt yet.)

Ali (I think he can be considered secure now surely?)

Anderson

Broad

So they we have a problem in itself - of a squad of 16 I think there are only 7 guys who absolutely nailed on. Ie. It would be shocking to ridiculous if they didn't take them. OK, it would be a bit of a shock if they didn't take Wood, Woakes etc but these are players who have been left out in the recent future. Only 7 core players - think about Ashes winning teams before and we pretty much knew our starting 11 before the squad was picked. Now everyone's guess is as good as everyone else. So under Warehams rules I get 5 additional batsman, 2 additional seamers, 1 extra spinner and a back up Keeper. I think the balance of that is wrong so I'm going to take a extra seamer and lose a batsmen.

Batsmen (4)

Stoneman (Deadman's shoes - he's the current occupant and no one has made a great case to replace him).

Lyth (That's my mediocre England performer leftfield selection of choice - my equivalent of Jack's Robson pick. Of all of those players I thought he looked best on balance. Don't like any of them much though).

Ballance (Something just makes me think that his game might be suited to play in Australia - nudges off the backfoot etc. I'd roll the dice, cross my fingers and bung him in at 3).

Hales (I guess. I don't really know. We need some dynamism in the middle order somewhere I think. You could put him, Duckett, Malan, Vince etc in that roll and I don't think I really like any of them very much. They say Hales has changed his game for long format so maybe give him a crack. Another one who I think might like the wickets. Possibly...).

Other thoughts on batting. Truth is I don't like any of them very much. One wild left field strategy might be to promote Moeen to 5I suppose. It's not like England were that good this Summer that the balance of the side should be seen as sacrosanct but it would obviously be a risk of breaking up a bit of the side that works very well. Hasn't worked as a strategy before but I bet they are seriously thinking about it. I absolutely hated Westley's technique - bat down at an angle to leg across the line of the ball. With extra pace at international level that was just exposed badly - I think Aussie seamers would be delighted if his name was on team sheet for Brisbane. Hameed apparently has a partially broken finger - he's clearly going to play for England for a long time. Why risk throwing him in the deep end here? However, I would conscience bringing him in if others struggle - less pressure for a young player. More of a no lose scenario and chance to build up a reputation. It's how a lot of our great players started. I'd have no particular problem of having in the squad if they see that kind of role for him and think it would help his development (I'd leave Lyth out of the above if so) but I wouldn't want him on the team sheet at Brisbane either.

Seamers

Woakes (Obviously really - perfect for England in many ways).

Wood (But slightly reluctantly - sadly, I'm not sure he's physically up to a tour on hard Aussie wickets bowling the way he does).

Finn (Only because it's Australia - huge risk of course).

This is the surprising one. Now Roland-Jones is injured the cupboard actually looks a bit bare here compared with a few years ago. At one stage it felt like we had anything up to half a dozen guys who could come in and do a decent job as the 3rd/4th seamer but it seems like that generation (effectively the secondary bunch in the Broad/Anderson) cohort is basically passed it and there's a slight lack of clear alternatives right now. I'm struggling to think of candidates.

Others;

Jos Buttler (Not really another option but he continues to do little to make his case in the long format - if it was another tour there might be a case for taking someone else along for the ride but can't see the point of that in an Ashes series).

Jack Leach (Honestly I would take Leach - consistently been the best spinner in England over the last 2 years. They're not going to though. They're not going to take Rashid either who seems like the sensible option based on performance and team balance etc. Instead they seem to have anointed Mason Crane - maybe that's fair. But taking a young leggy to Australia seems a huge risk - is he really going to start a game at any point? I could see Leach or Rashid starting a game - I see Crane getting a similar tour to Borthwick last time around. It's weird that when Ashes series in Australia come around selectors are generally very conservative apart from a consistent obsession with trying to unearth a young 'magic' spinner despite the fact that in general, the great man excepted, it doesn't seem to me that spin is particularly successful in Australia other than standard 4th innings situation).

Post by warehamgas on Sept 27, 2017 15:21:22 GMT

Well Irish, confirmed that Vince goes!! Strange one isn't it. And Overtons going which is a big surprise to me. I think Overton and Vince are odd choices though Overton has bowled well this season and having overcome, permanently I hope, his tendency to go off on one could be a very good choice. But he won't play will he? You were right they have gone for an extra bowler or two. Woakes, Ball and Overton makes me think there are either concerns over bowlers' fitness, the batsmen dropped are known not to be good enough so will move Moeen up the order and play an extra bowler or its a blind panic! I did go for 16 players because that is what they usually take. I would have taken Hameed but he will go with the Lions and were he to get some big scores it won't be far to travel because they are in Oz too. I think this will be the case for many of the players who missed out. Leach, Dawson, Rashid(?), Wood, Jennings will be in Australia and not far away if needed.Vince is strange one. like Mason Crane, I don't get this idea about Vince being test class. Yes he has some nice strokes but so do many others. I wonder if selectors see players play now. We all know that Trevor Baylis doesn't watch four day cricket so only coaches players selected for him. Because of this I wonder if selection for England is influenced by the Sky commentators because Gower, Warne and I think Atherton have always supported his inclusion. Certainly more than that of Gary Ballance. We might have lost the era of the Gentlemen V The Players thankfully but influence and favour are still living and breathing!

Post by jackthegas on Sept 28, 2017 12:50:36 GMT

Well Irish, confirmed that Vince goes!! Strange one isn't it. And Overtons going which is a big surprise to me. I think Overton and Vince are odd choices though Overton has bowled well this season and having overcome, permanently I hope, his tendency to go off on one could be a very good choice. But he won't play will he? You were right they have gone for an extra bowler or two. Woakes, Ball and Overton makes me think there are either concerns over bowlers' fitness, the batsmen dropped are known not to be good enough so will move Moeen up the order and play an extra bowler or its a blind panic! I did go for 16 players because that is what they usually take. I would have taken Hameed but he will go with the Lions and were he to get some big scores it won't be far to travel because they are in Oz too. I think this will be the case for many of the players who missed out. Leach, Dawson, Rashid(?), Wood, Jennings will be in Australia and not far away if needed.Vince is strange one. like Mason Crane, I don't get this idea about Vince being test class. Yes he has some nice strokes but so do many others. I wonder if selectors see players play now. We all know that Trevor Baylis doesn't watch four day cricket so only coaches players selected for him. Because of this I wonder if selection for England is influenced by the Sky commentators because Gower, Warne and I think Atherton have always supported his inclusion. Certainly more than that of Gary Ballance. We might have lost the era of the Gentlemen V The Players thankfully but influence and favour are still living and breathing!

You will have seen a lot more of Overton but given the injuries we have I am not that surprised they have taken him. Not sure who else there is if Wood, TRJ and Plunkett are all considered to by injured or lacking the fitness required to go 5 days.

Crane has been picked on the back of his performance in grade and then Sheffield Shield cricket last winter. He's barely played for Hampshire though. Scary that he could end up playing as part of a 4 man attack if Moeen gets injured on the morning of the match and Stokes is er, otherwise engaged.

I choose not to believe that the likes of Vaughan have any influence over selection but the Vince pick has taken me by surprise. We are not blessed with many options but Vince was so poor when he was picked last time and has been so mediocre in first class cricket since that I assumed he was way down the pecking order. I genuinely believe Daryl Mitchell would have done a better job at 3 for England this winter.

It will be interesting to see who makes the Lions tour this winter. I hope Leach is on the plane and gets a good run in the side.

I am going to pick Irish up on his Bairstow comment too. I love watching him bat. I thought last year that he was going to kick on and become our second best batsman but that hasn't quite happened this year. I suspect he has focused on improving the weaker part of his game and that has paid dividends as his keeping has improved a lot this summer. He's averaged 32 this summer having batted at 7 in difficult conditions. I think judged as a number 7 wicket-keeper batsman his place isn't in doubt.

If he was batting as a specialist 4 or 5 then maybe there would be a case to answer, however, I suspect if he gave up the gloves he'd score more runs.

Final comment; however you dress it up it is a squad with gaping holes that looks pretty desperate on paper especially for tests played outside of the UK.

Post by irishrover on Sept 29, 2017 1:19:22 GMT

Well Irish, confirmed that Vince goes!! Strange one isn't it. And Overtons going which is a big surprise to me. I think Overton and Vince are odd choices though Overton has bowled well this season and having overcome, permanently I hope, his tendency to go off on one could be a very good choice. But he won't play will he? You were right they have gone for an extra bowler or two. Woakes, Ball and Overton makes me think there are either concerns over bowlers' fitness, the batsmen dropped are known not to be good enough so will move Moeen up the order and play an extra bowler or its a blind panic! I did go for 16 players because that is what they usually take. I would have taken Hameed but he will go with the Lions and were he to get some big scores it won't be far to travel because they are in Oz too. I think this will be the case for many of the players who missed out. Leach, Dawson, Rashid(?), Wood, Jennings will be in Australia and not far away if needed.Vince is strange one. like Mason Crane, I don't get this idea about Vince being test class. Yes he has some nice strokes but so do many others. I wonder if selectors see players play now. We all know that Trevor Baylis doesn't watch four day cricket so only coaches players selected for him. Because of this I wonder if selection for England is influenced by the Sky commentators because Gower, Warne and I think Atherton have always supported his inclusion. Certainly more than that of Gary Ballance. We might have lost the era of the Gentlemen V The Players thankfully but influence and favour are still living and breathing!

You will have seen a lot more of Overton but given the injuries we have I am not that surprised they have taken him. Not sure who else there is if Wood, TRJ and Plunkett are all considered to by injured or lacking the fitness required to go 5 days.

Crane has been picked on the back of his performance in grade and then Sheffield Shield cricket last winter. He's barely played for Hampshire though. Scary that he could end up playing as part of a 4 man attack if Moeen gets injured on the morning of the match and Stokes is er, otherwise engaged.

I choose not to believe that the likes of Vaughan have any influence over selection but the Vince pick has taken me by surprise. We are not blessed with many options but Vince was so poor when he was picked last time and has been so mediocre in first class cricket since that I assumed he was way down the pecking order. I genuinely believe Daryl Mitchell would have done a better job at 3 for England this winter.

It will be interesting to see who makes the Lions tour this winter. I hope Leach is on the plane and gets a good run in the side.

I am going to pick Irish up on his Bairstow comment too. I love watching him bat. I thought last year that he was going to kick on and become our second best batsman but that hasn't quite happened this year. I suspect he has focused on improving the weaker part of his game and that has paid dividends as his keeping has improved a lot this summer. He's averaged 32 this summer having batted at 7 in difficult conditions. I think judged as a number 7 wicket-keeper batsman his place isn't in doubt.

If he was batting as a specialist 4 or 5 then maybe there would be a case to answer, however, I suspect if he gave up the gloves he'd score more runs.

Final comment; however you dress it up it is a squad with gaping holes that looks pretty desperate on paper especially for tests played outside of the UK.

Ok, let's be clear about this. I am not in any way suggesting that Bairstow's place should be in jeopardy. I'm happy with the idea that he's one of the guaranteed names on the teamsheet. All I'm saying is that in a perfect world he would have come under a bit of a pressure this summer because he didn't really do the business and, perhaps a bit more controversially, I think he benefited from his position in the order a bit this summer. Ie. Stokes and Moeen has pretty excellent summers with the bat that I feel masked the fact that Bairstow often seemed to me to fail in key situations. However, I agree that he is a tremendously exciting batsmen and I have some sympathy with the idea that perhaps he should give up the gloves and return to the outfield - partly because it might be good for his batting but also because he is genuinely one of the most athletic English outfielders I have seen live.

Well done on the Vince spot from the Times - an interesting heads up leak I expect. Vic Marks came within a hare's breath of implying an agent based conspiracy to England's selection in his article pointing out the number borderline picks that are in the same representative agency as Root compared with those left out.....A potential modern version of the classic cricket old boys network maybe? Again, I can't get too excited because I think the difference between these players is marginal. There is definitely something basically arse over tit about the idea that we need to find consistency in 3 out of the top 5 positions because we want to protect the firepower of positions 6-8. Now anyone that's followed the England team in recent years would say there's a certain logic in that but if you take a step back it sounds bonkers. Ie. We pick unproven players in order to protect proven players. There is something in that whole concept that implies a certain overthinking and a classic English obsession with batting order positions over common sense. But if that's the way they are thinking I don't have a massive problem with this selection I suppose-glad they didn't take Westley. Vince looks like a very poor man's Michael Vaughan-maybe this is his moment just like a tour of Australia was the making of Vaughan but I doubt it. If Root isn't batting 3 then I kind of think Ballance is the best of a pretty ropey looking lot.

Overton selection maybe surprising but indicative of what I said above - cupboard is a bit bare and if they don't trust Wood's fitness then someone has to go right? Overton makes as much sense as anybody else in that context as far as I can see. If he's seen as the next in line then it makes sense as odd as picking a debutant might be. Great opportunity for him. They went with Foakes in the end too, which was interesting. Crane was predictable. Be interesting to see if either of them get any cricket and if anyone in the Lions tours puts pressure on places.

Despite the even more terrible grammar than usual post above (I'd have failed one of my students if they'd submitted - must have been pissed when I wrote that) I would point out that I made the 'no brainer' comment before the Stokes story came out. How depressingly prescient! All up in the air now anywayI suppose....If Stokes really can't go we are surely screwed.