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[quote=Dan Harden;288142]Heh heh heh
Okay, I'll play. Moving from your center imparts a certain conditioning there. One of the giveaways of those who really don't get it is their non-conditioned loose fat belllies and stiff bodies, which rock their frame on to their heels and outer edges of their feet when they receive load- which defies any real capabilities to use dantian beyond a hopeful intellectual curiosity. It's good to get your hands on some accomplished people to see and feel the difference. [/QUOTE

Having recently had the very unexpected opportunity to get my hands on an accomplished person it was a real eye opener. Like being back at the beginning ( actually had a white belt on too - which was very apt ) and getting your mind round something like this. For those who have an open mind to learning it is one of the best feelings - one that I want to repeat again in the not too distant future.

[Having recently had the very unexpected opportunity to get my hands on an accomplished person it was a real eye opener. Like being back at the beginning ( actually had a white belt on too - which was very apt ) and getting your mind round something like this. For those who have an open mind to learning it is one of the best feelings - one that I want to repeat again in the not too distant future.

Exactly why I recommended in another thread that people go see someone with a world-acknowledged level of accomplishment in order to get a feel for what the "Real Stuff" feels like. That's what I did as soon as China opened its doors and it gave me the ability to avoid a lot of time-wasting later on.

Notice that I said "feel" (well, and see, of course)... the development and usage of the body and movement is quite different in real experts. The reason I say "feel" is that while they're generally very friendly, etc., they seldom reveal much information. I was just talking to a friend of mine about a bunch of Americans that have been following one reasonably knowledgeable teacher in California for 20 years and they're basically about where they were 20 years ago, although they know a number of nice-looking forms now.

I've been told in dance classes to move from the core rather than the legs or the arms, and let your arms/legs move because they're attached to the core. They didn't mean anything mysterious about it...

I've been told in dance classes to move from the core rather than the legs or the arms, and let your arms/legs move because they're attached to the core. They didn't mean anything mysterious about it...

Did they explain how they were connected to center? was it a hard connection with tense muscles or more of a soft connection with the slack taken out of the ligaments, tendons, and fascia?

They just showed it, and danced with you and let you feel it, and watched and felt what you were doing and told you if you were doing what they meant. So no, they didn't go into anatomical detail.

So.. basically like most aikido classes around the world (including the OP's).

I think we need more people like the OP to say, "thanks, but that really isn't helping me do it or understand." I should have been more vocal especially when someone once said at a dojo I visited, "you'll just get it someday."

So.. basically like most aikido classes around the world (including the OP's).

I think we need more people like the OP to say, "thanks, but that really isn't helping me do it or understand." I should have been more vocal especially when someone once said at a dojo I visited, "you'll just get it someday."

On serious note, you are exactly right - more needs to be shown and coached in this area to get that mind and body coordinated, which is crucial for establishing the foundation for effective aiki.

Don't make this personal, Dan. I have reservations that I have refrained from mentioning publicly out of consideration for you. Don't try to take advantage of my silence.

Where do you see anything personal?

Quote:

It's been suggested several times. I offered to go there as well. It's never gonna happen, Rob.
Dan

Two of the invitations have been discussed here on aikiweb, though if I recall correctly, they involved Ron and Mary.
Where do you see any need to bring up your feelings about me?
Where do you see the need to go personal and mention why, at all?
Is this the formal reply from your group AFTER your group had asked me to come and share our aiki together, and no one replied to my email?
If so, it would have probably been more professional to let me know of your reservations by email, instead of letting me know by choosing to use aikiweb to state publicly that you have some sort of negative feelings.

It's sometimes difficult to navigate various people's standards. You'll understand that I now have reservations of my own.
Oh well.
Dan

And another attempt to get the train back on the rails goes down in flames.

Does it strike nobody else that the OP's question is very odd? The ratio of people who get on the mat with overly stiff arms to those who get on the mat with overly limp arms is, it seems to me, about 1000:0.

I'd sort of like to hear from the OP if she's tried any of the advice and how it went for her.

And another attempt to get the train back on the rails goes down in flames.

Does it strike nobody else that the OP's question is very odd? The ratio of people who get on the mat with overly stiff arms to those who get on the mat with overly limp arms is, it seems to me, about 1000:0.

I'd sort of like to hear from the OP if she's tried any of the advice and how it went for her.

I would like to hear too.
Yes I thought it was pretty much the opposite problem from most folks. But, in theory it is equally as big an issue.. we just seem to generally see a bias toward stiff. But this is EXACTLY what should happen if people are told to relax, but are not given something specific to replace what the arms were doing.
So I am glad that we can see the one in 10,000 threads where this rare thing is actually happening.

I would like to hear too.
Yes I thought it was pretty much the opposite problem from most folks. But, in theory it is equally as big an issue.. we just seem to generally see a bias toward stiff. But this is EXACTLY what should happen if people are told to relax, but are not given something specific to replace what the arms were doing.
So I am glad that we can see the one in 10,000 threads where this rare thing is actually happening.

Is it really that odd, especially for someone who has been training a bit? But the idea of Tohei Senseii's ki principles, which I was ironically more exposed to through my various ASU teachers than through the one Ki Society student (who had trained under Imaizumi Sensei), but to quote:

Is it any wonder that, hearing those things, as random quips from a teacher among others, a student might get confused, take them literally, and go to extremes that send them shooting in entirely unproductive directions? As a set of principles, they are not very informative and rather unbalanced in their attachments to one extreme over another.

Is it really that odd, especially for someone who has been training a bit? But the idea of Tohei Senseii's ki principles, which I was ironically more exposed to through my various ASU teachers than through the one Ki Society student (who had trained under Imaizumi Sensei), but to quote:

Is it any wonder that, hearing those things, as random quips from a teacher among others, a student might get confused, take them literally, and go to extremes that send them shooting in entirely unproductive directions? As a set of principles, they are not very informative and rather unbalanced in their attachments to one extreme over another.

Hi Lee.
May I say hearing those four principles as quips would indeed lead to confusion so no argument there.

Taking them as a set of principles however then your view is rather confusing. It shows me your lack of understanding of principle and of their relationship to each other.

I don't blame you as such I merely correct you. The fault lies purely in the art of teaching, not in the principles.

If O'Sensei himself had a weakness, a something he had yet to improve and learn, it was how to communicate (teach) the principles he knew in such a way that others could understand and grasp.

Now that's not a put down it's a facet one only comes across when they have realized and can demonstrate something and the others want to know how they do that. Sounds simple but I assure you it isn't for you are now trying to teach something that has become so simple to you yet others get confused if you tell them it's simplicity.

Does it strike nobody else that the OP's question is very odd? The ratio of people who get on the mat with overly stiff arms to those who get on the mat with overly limp arms is, it seems to me, about 1000:0.

It did strike me as uncommon, but I've trained with a person who I would describe as almost completely limp. No amount of asking to try with more force would yield more than the slightest sense of contact even. I've felt it when people just grab on lightly and don't do anything; what I'm remembering was somehow even less than that.
I'd like to hear more from the OP as well though.

It did strike me as uncommon, but I've trained with a person who I would describe as almost completely limp. No amount of asking to try with more force would yield more than the slightest sense of contact even. I've felt it when people just grab on lightly and don't do anything; what I'm remembering was somehow even less than that.
I'd like to hear more from the OP as well though.

When they noodle... stuff their arms into their bodies and then use their arms to throw their bodies. There's no point in letting their lack of understanding be reinforced. Keep throwing them till they get that, that type of "relaxed" is nonsense.
You see some aikido people lumbering around, flat on their feet, and sliding their feet all over the place with their arms dead. It's just plain stupid, and it's not low level, it's no level... of understanding.
Relax completely and extend ki is one of the poorest or incomplete descriptions I have ever heard. It has led to a whole bunch of people limping around or flexing their arms under stress because they don't know how to connect to their center..
Dan