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Since this site is named “Stuff Fundies Like” I suppose it behooves us to come up with at least a broad definition of who these fundamentalists are and what makes them different from their mere evangelical counterparts. The task is far from simple for a variety of reasons not the least of which is that those who claim the title of “fundamentalist” disagree vehemently about who should and should not be privileged to share it with them.

George Marsden has famously described Christian fundamentalists as “evangelicals who are angry about something.”1 That definition is, perhaps, more true than most fundamentalists will admit but it lacks a certain amount of specificity. There are, for example, many evangelicals who are prone to anger and yet fall outside of the the Independent Fundamental Baptist (IFB) circles about which most of this blog is written.

When pressed many IFB members will claim that being a fundamentalist means simply holding “the fundamentals. The five most commonly held fundamentals of the faith have been:

The inspiration of the Bible by the Holy Spirit and the inerrancy of Scripture as a result of this.

The virgin birth of Christ.

The belief that Christ’s death was the atonement for sin.

The bodily resurrection of Christ.

The historical reality of Christ’s miracles.2

However, even this fails as an accurate test for this would cover many in the Southern Baptist Convention, some Bible Presbyterians, and many other non-denominational churches with whom any good Independent Fundamental Baptist would not associate. Indeed, neither the author nor many of the readers of this blog have any problem with many or all of these points even though they have long since left attending a fundamentalist church.

What becomes readily apparent after a certain amount of time is that the IFB movement has not only separated itself from those who practice “liberal theology” (which encompasses everything from infant baptism to using modern Bible versions) but also parts with those who participate in any part of the post-1960’s American culture that it considered to be “worldly.” This latter separation includes a large focus on certain types of music, styles of dress, the movie theater, alcohol, and a seemingly endless number of other activities. In reality it is these standards rather than any true doctrinal test that define the “fundamentals” for most Independent Baptist Fundamentalists.

As these fundamentalists have begun to vie for the position of being more and more separated from their brethren by taking more and more extreme stances, many thoughtful and reasonable people have left the movement leaving a good number of churches and schools headed by increasingly radical and isolationist leaders. As the leadership heads into what is formally known in ecclesiastical circles as “crazypants town” so the congregations follow them to the mixed amusement and horror of those of us who grew up in the movement. Here at SFL we chronicle and scrutinize this slow drift of the IFB to oblivion with posts that are sometimes satirical and sometimes serious and sometimes simply the fundamentalists in their own words.

If you’ve ever been an Independent Fundamental Baptist or know someone who has been I invite you to stay and chat a while. After all, your IFB friends and neighbors are mostly likely already here.

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There is, without a doubt, no other place where people with bitter spirits can come and spew their venom with complete confidence of finding a bird of a feather. “MISERY ENJOYS COMPANY!”

Just guessing here; I bet most of you left fundamentalism because of music and most of you have further seeded your bitterness with all the anti-fundamentalist talking points you have learned since your move to higher acceptance of others that believe different than you. lol While you sit here and criticize people that disagree with you because they are fundamentalist. What a Mote and Beam moment to cherrish. 😯

I could not agree more. You must be referring to the anti-fundamentalists…
For the record, simple acknowledgement/agreement with the “fundamentals” is not what should define a fundamentalist or fundamentalism (and it didn’t until the Cole myth was perpetuated).
A Bible-believing Christian Baptist separates from those who, according to the Bible “walketh disorderly,” those who could be categorized as an “angry man,” from sin, and unto Christ. This is to be done not with anger, but with biblical conviction.
There sure have been Independent Fundamental Evangelistic Baptists who have not been honest, who have been all about numbers, and who have covered up things, and some still exist today. But one must remember that one should not paint all of them with the same brush. I personally have been involved in 6 different IFBC’s (not to mention the dozens I have visited) and have not had bad experiences at any of them.
Furthermore I would challenge you to find a group of churches to which this country owes more (for the Bill of Rights) and one who has been persecuted more over the centuries by Rome, the Catholics, the Protestants, the Communists, dictators, and secular humanists.
When all is said and done the decision can only be made by faith and the desire be initiated by God.

Great! Why don’t you go start your own blog called “Motes and Beams”? You can use it to soapbox against perceived instances of unholiness you come across in your daily internet sojourn! Here, I’ll start you off with my working building for an Unholy Death Knight.

Uh, MoteandBeam, you sound bitter. For some this website is therapy – since they’re no longer bitter, but got a healthy sense of humor and don’t mind admitting they don’t drink the Kool-Aid anymore. I don’t think you get it.
Jesus biggest thing was to love God with your whole heart and soul and mind and (note this is all in one thought which I think is quite beautiful) love your fellow human being as much as you love yourself. If you disagree with the sentiment of people who have experienced the kind of life discussed on this website, then love more, please, not condemn and judge.

Um this is an old comment but wow… Talk about a big assumption. I began looking around at other churches because I was appalled at how money was being used to make the church more pretty and invest in anything and everything but the poor and the lost. I left when the church secretary (not my shepherd, mind you, apparently he couldn’t be bothered to come look for a “lost sheep”) called my mother (I was twenty-one, so she should have called me) to find out if I could be taken off the membership rolls. Basically I was kicked out without actually being kicked out. There was no way I was going back after that.

This site kinda depresses me : P I have been trying to forget my Fundy years. I am also embarrassed that I used to be so hardcore. Looking back at those years, I knew something was wrong inside me, but you could never talk about it, and reaching out to “other” evangelicals was heresy.

Very thankful for God leading me to my *gasp* Pentecostal church. I’ve been shedding the layers of religion that I have carried for so long! Whew! Better late than never to begin experiencing true life in Christ : )

I have the same thoughts as Ernst. I don’t have an IFB background. I was not raised totally in a specific Christian subculture.

Yet I do believe fundamentally in the Bible and I agree with a few points they have. And I like being more feminine. I am not too fond of culottes. But the point is that you don’t want to end up judging those who have convictions with certain things that have nothing to do with the IFB.

I see a lot of legalism, self-righteousness and lack of true repentance in those kind of churches. And some spiritual laziness with some things also. If you don’t take time to read the Bible and do Bible Study yourself, then you are setting yourself up there with that. Pleading ignorance is not good at all. And this can happen in any denomination.

Any lack of true reverence for God and knowing how merciful and loving He is, even though He hates sin, perpetuates a lot of nonsense and a plethora of abuse. This is one thing I don’t like about independent churches with no proper authority to make sure things don’t get cultic. Or separate entitities that will not get enmeshed in the chaos.

May those who have been damaged by this, truly know Christ and forgive those who have trepassed against you. Not easy, but with God’s grace it can be done. You can’t love Christ and hold on to past bitterness with those who hurt you. It will destroy you and not them.

Even as Christians, we are called to bless those who curse us and pray for those who dispitefully use us. So that God will mercifully open their eyes before it’s too late for them.

If evil and pure wickedness has been permitted, even if you think they have gotten away with it, God sees and knows. They will have they time. They will not escape.

No matter what abusive background you come out of, once you have truly know what repentance is , and you stay away from the circuses that call themselves churches, you will then have to make a decision with your own walk with Christ. You have to make sure you are even saved first.

Because salvation is not based on your goodness, or your own merits or works-righteousness. Or a pastor making you jump through denominational hoops. And it is all a work of grace.

And in the end, we all will stand before and give an account of our lives. Because those people who are in these legalistic churches will be needing God’s mercy to be shown to them, in their time of need.

Because as a Christian if you are given an opportunity to minister to someone coming out of extreme IFB churches, you will have to demonstrate the same grace God has shown you coming out of it. Otherwise you can become a hyprocrite. And anyone can be a hyprocrite, no exceptions.

I have been warned about anything associated with Hyles. Absolute wickedness.

The irony is that most of the comments against this blog make the argument that there is so many good things in the IFB world that they don’t deserve a good pointing out of their problems – but when the mountain of evidence is to the contrary and it’s defenders have to dig out tired arguments to support it… it’s time to just give it up.

Anyone who has a broad perpective of Christianity knows two things: There are issues with every group, network, denomination and camp (to use a fundy word). Two, the issues are most glaring and obvious in the Independent, Fundamental Baptist world.

The fact that an entire blog could be dedicated to it almost makes it a non argument when the great majority of those issues are because of many unhealthy behaviors, strange interpretations of scripture, man-made, outdated preferences that are uplifted as doctrine, theologically untenable positions on bible translations, bizarre, antiquated (unbiblical) views on married sexuality, dress, music and gender rolls – in addition to unbiblical, culturally disconnected views on ecclesiastical separation and methodology. The list could go on with things like overbearing leadership, legalistic this, man centered that… but I digress. Because their preferences are elevated as doctrine it weakens their theology to the point that most of it is derived from tradition rather than Bible or practical thought. They tend to be “independent” in title but frozen in reality because of the mountains of peer-pressure put on them by other “brothers” who they “associate” with.

Then their reaction to someone pointing out the problems only results in them saying “there are fringe elements that are extreme and I (they) are not – sorry but fundamentalism in it’s current contemporary form is the extreme fringe. People that see the problems tend to leave. The other argument is to basically paint everything else as wrong and throw out a “remnant” argument.

Some say that fundamentalism is worth fighting for. I say God does not care for it and NO – a lethargic, ineffective, stagnated, tradition worshipping, man made movement is not worth fighting for. What is worth fighting for are real Biblical fundamentals and the right to be truly independent to the point we contextualize, cooperate with other Christians and the right to lead a Christian life without guilt and man-made traditions being forced upon us.

I count myself fortunate that God has allowed me to escape the dying carcass of fundamentalism and allowed me to be part of something fresh, alive and focused on Jesus. Seems to me that’s how Christianity should be!!

“. . .a movement that rejected not only liberal theology but also those parts of the culture that it considered to be â€œworldlyâ€ such as certain types of music, styles of dress, the theater, alcohol, and many others.”

You might want to specify the type of “theater.” Many mainline fundamentalists would probably not reject attending an opera house or a theater in which Shakespeare plays were shown with regularity.

If you’ll find Shakespeare’s plays there, it’s a theatre. A theater is where you go to watch movies. Of course, I wouldn’t expect fundies to know the difference, even though they can give you a dissertation on why it’s a platform, not a stage. ;~)

@Nate and Josh: It depends. Some extreme fundies reject even Shakespeare and, presumably, kindergarten plays, because the actors are pretending to be people they are not and, therefore, lying to the audience. I kid you not. This guy (http://www.rapidnet.com/~jbeard/bdm/) goes so far as to shout down BJU as apostate because it has liars onstage every semester and “graven images” in the Museum and Gallery.

BTW, Darrell: if you haven’t used Biblical Discernment Ministries (above) as a FWOTW yet, it’s ripe for inclusion.

Mike, I have personally talked to fundies who have decried my choice to study Shakespeare (or act in Shakespearean plays). My own parents treat literature as highly suspect (BTW, my dad is a highly-trained engineer with a well-paying job, not an inarticulate hillbilly.) They read voluminously but avoid fiction; they think literature is a waste of time as well as a possible violation of Phil. 4:8.

I also met a “preacher” in IN who couldn’t read at all. He claimed that God’s Spirit told him what to say. If he needed to study, his wife read him the Bible.

There are more of these folks than you claim to know. Just because you haven’t met them doesn’t mean they’re not out there.

But what Mike said is true. Someone like this may claim to be “IFB” but they fail to qualify for the following reason:
MINIMUM QUALIFICATION FAILURE
Failure to qualify under the “Baptist” category>
Failure due to the neglect of and/or refusal to adhere to the “B” in B.A.P.T.I.S.T.S.>
“B” in B.A.P.T.I.S.T.S.: “Biblical Authority” (the Bible is the sole authority for faith and practice)- The aforementioned pastor fails qualification due to the obvious failure to follow>
1. “Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed”
2. Rightly divide the Word of truth
3. “Let everything be done decently and in order”

Mike what are you talking about? Where did you come from? There isn’t a fundamentalist Christian school or college in this country that hasn’t censored its library. How many Baptist high schools have a copy of Harry Potter? How many have a copy of Thus Spake Zarathustra? Catcher in the Rye? My father-in-law threw away my wife’s Harry Potter books when she was in high school because his very prominent fundamentalist church had a seminar on how evil it was.
Do you seriously not know this or are you just that comfortable lying?

Dude, you’re getting pretty up tight about all this. Maybe you should take a break and cool off. Again, you’re all citing like 4-5 people or instances. What is that compared to the thousands of churches filled with hundreds of people? I have been a member of more than 10 churches from the East coast to the West coast and then stretching oversees. I know fundamentalist people all over the world, thousands of them, seriously. And I’m saying that the majority of them are not like that. Now, there are obviously groups of people, fundamentalists or not, Independent Baptists or not, who definitely go off the deep end. Do I hate literature? No way! I am a Charles Dickins fanatic and I even read *gasp* that drunkard Edgar Allen Poe! OH! Some fundys would probably want to “excomunicate” me for such carnal sins, but most don’t care. It all comes down to each person’s personal conviction on whatever matter is at hand. Some people, many people, seem to be content to adopt the conviction of their pastor, who may lean waaay far to the conservative side of things. That’s their choice to do so. And as a husband, Father, and leader of the home, the man of the house has the right to direct his whole house in whatever manner that he feels that the Lord has led him. I hope that I haven’t angered you or caused you any grief. I honestly do not mean to.

“Dude, youâ€™re getting pretty up tight about all this. Maybe you should take a break and cool off. Again, youâ€™re all citing like 4-5 people or instances.”

Why don’t you educate yourself to the 1000’s of men, women and children who have been spiritually, sexually and physically abused. Such abuse is at epidemic proportions in the IFB as a whole. No, one post on SFL can capture all the abuse situations. There are several IFB abuse survivors groups out there. Go educate yourself! Don’t ask those of us who may have been abused, who come on SFL for a little laughter or support to re-visit it.

With all due respect, BACK OFF! Enjoy the site with the rest of us, but don’t preach at us. Nearly all of us have been there done that and have the scars to prove it!

Mike- what do you know about my father? I’m A.P.’s wife. My father was hardly stable, years of abuse and molestation at the hands of his father, by the way a fundamentalist admittedly not a great one, but he claimed to be one none the less, and no counseling left my home nowhere close to what you would call normal, but you wouldn’t know that because you came to judge judge judge. I lived under impossible standards all the time that I could never ever ever live up to. As an adult I have battled depression and in my relationship with God because of my home life, because I always see God as an extension of my earthly father, the person I was never good enough for, who he was ready to drop if I had gotten into any real trouble. A battle that I’ve had to fight for years. So you can make your smug statement about the head of house being able to lead the house in whatever way he chooses but what if your head of house isn’t stable emotionally? My husband consults the Bible in how he runs our home. I think that would’ve been a much better choice for my dad, but he chose to follow his pastors. Don’t presume to know anything about me or my experiences.
You know “thousands” of fundamentalists, well, so do I. I attended 1 church with 1000 people, another church with 3000 people, another church with 750 people, another church with 1200 people, not to mention other smaller churches. You’ve been in 10 fundamentalist churches? I’ve been in at least that many. You’ve done little to impress me so far. My husband is not speaking of instances of 4-5 people nor are any of the rest of us here.
You’re obvious egotism and anything else you have to say is nothing new to us. You’ve already damaged your purposes with me.

I can tell you’re upset. I am not trying to cause any pain to you or anybody. But name calling is not nice. When I say that the head of the home should lead his family as the Lord leads him to do so, I mean that he should always consult the Bible. We speak to God through prayer, and He speaks to us through His Word. I am not egotistical, I’m not trying to make you angry. Please don’t hate me if I have offended you. I have not been offended to the point of anger by people who, like you, have attacked me and my views. I’m not being self-righteous, I’m just being honest. If you could only hear my voice as I read aloud what I am typing. I am sorry that you have been through so much, but I know that God is good, and He’s able to help you grow through it all. God can take a horrible thing and use it to bring Himself glory. You can become a trophy of His grace. All the best to you, and no feelings of malice.

Uh, Mike, what in Sam Hill are you talking about? Fundamentalism generally is not literature-friendly, unless it is explicitly Christian.

Even though ACE had literature available to its students, many schools just didn’t use it. Mine was one of them. I never heard very many secular literature references from the pulpit, not even from well-known classics. Only when I got to BJU did I ever get any real literary exposure. Even then, it was likely censored. I never heard anything about literature from the HAC people I knew.

To this day, I know people who will only read “Christian” books. They won’t read Dickens, but they’ll know Peretti!

So congratulations, you’ve been under some BJU influence somewhere (or maybe Pensacola). But fundamentalism outside of those places is generally not into literature.

No, not she *can* be a trophy of His grace. She already is a trophy of His grace because she is in Christ. Not because of what she thinks of herself, what others think of her, but because of what Chris did.

This is such an excellent blog. The sheer awesome is almost overwhelming!

And… for the record, as a staunch Christian and firm believer in all of the Bible, “fundies” and their nonsensically legalistic beliefs drive me crazy. So if anyone ever accuses you of being anti-Christian (as I’m sure they have), you can tell them that you’ve got at least one Christian supporter!

Hey I have a confession, I have become fascinated by this site though I live in the UK and have no experience of IFB’s and a lot of your initials such as BJU are a toal mystery to me. I did spend seven years in a Pentecostal AOG church that shared some of the symptoms though.

Has a ramble round the BJU site. Feel quite shocked that someone could found a university and name it after themselves. In the UK I can only think of one such organisation named after a person and that person is the Prince of Preachers himself, naturally.

Also am I right in perceiving that the leadership has become a hereditary domain? Or does the anointing just happen to pass from father to son?

Not that people are any better over here, just perhaps a bit more cynical culturally.

Honestly, I cannot stand Hyles-Anderson College. They demote women to less than equal and peddle salvation like they’re giving out free cheese samples. 1-2-3 Pray with me! I’m sure the Lord is able to use people from there for His work, but I do not associate with many of their principles.

The church I was raised in had a lot of HAC ideas. I grew up thinking that I was less of a human because I was female. That I wasn’t as good as the men, and not really needed on the planet.

My husband has been the main one in my life to help me get out of that mindset. He’s taught me that I am his EQUAL and reminded me that God said that it wasn’t good for man to be alone. That my place on the planet is imperative. 🙂

Let me rephrase (I was just thinking about this while in the … powder room), husband wasn’t saying my place was only with a man or as a man’s companion, etc. He was expressing my importance on the planet as an individual… A woman’s position on the planet, even by herself, was imperative.

Just thought I’d clarify. I don’t want anyone to have a false impression of Hot Fuzz.

My wife grew up in a Hyles-lovin’ church. The church is filled with good people, though there is an over-emphasis on standards to the teens and not enough talk of just living for God. God made Eve because Adam was not whole without her. My wife is my equal. She balances me. She’s not given to me to feed my stomach, clean my house, or satisfy my urges. She is my co-laborer and my friend. HAC does not promote that. …and I hate Jack Schapp always making “big girl” jokes. Makes me sick and shames the Bible.

Mike – I’m looking at this from a long way off and only know anything about USA fundamentalism from what gets posted here or linked websites. And my judgements about any of it are unlikely to have any repercussions to anyone outside of me, but thank you for your concern.

Be interested to know why you think Scotland is in need of fundamentalist mission though… (I’m nowhere near Scotland but a bit closer than you are)

Places like Edinburg Do not have enough Christian witnesses in them. The people there are unsaved and atheistic. They need Jesus. My family is from there and some of them need to hear the Gospel. I’m not going there to plant American churches, I’m going there to plant Scottish churches.

The world does not need America to export the Cult of Fundamentalism to the four courners of the earth. The homegrown crap does enough damage to the cause of Christ without exporting the IFB legalistic culture to foreign shores.

Mike – everywhere has unsaved people and unbelievers and needs Christians living out the gospel. But why plant more churches?
If you haven’t already thought of this, why don’t you contact some evangelical churches in Edinburgh and ask what is the best thing you can do to help more people find faith? They will know the local situation and needs. They may have been patiently working in their localities for years.
Maybe an American missionary will attract some people through novelty value. Maybe some people will be really indignant and alienated at the thought of being treated as a mission field by an American.
I don’t say that the UK can’t benefit from people from other countries sharing the gospel if its done with love and sensitivity. I will say that Americans in suits on a mission are universally assumed to be Mormons.

@ JoA Well, I’m going to Scotland because I believe that is where the Lord wants me to go to serve. I believe in His supreme sovereignty and divine appointments, so He may have something special there for me. If he chooses to lead me somewhere else in the future, I am open to that. But secularism and atheism are on the rise there and it is my ancesteral homeland, so I feel a very strong connection to the people. Also, I do not plan to go there to start American churches, but to help isolated Christians start Scottish churches.

I’ve come across it in other organisations, the Bruderhof which is pretty far removed from fundamentalism doctrinally was run by the founder’s grandson last time I looked. And in the AOG church I went to the worship leader now is the pastor’s son. And I wouldn’t expect a big prize for prophesying where the anointing’s going to land when the pastor retires.

I was thinking about the BJU statement that they are anti-rational. And I wondered if they are anti-rational how can they teach anyone anything in their university at all? As nothing needs to make sense or be connected in a logical sequence if rationalism is wrong. And then I realised I was being too rational and they must be right.

Fundies are an easy target and the caricatures and satire one can write are endless. However is there any value going to the other extreme where it’s all about the Christian “experience” in some of these Charismatic and Pentecostal assemblies? The danger is just exchanging one form of religion for another and making religion out to be how one does stuff on Sunday morning. Some are attracted to the more conservative Baptist way of doing things. Others are attracted to the more liberal churches. However, what God wants is neither of these things, he wants people who’s faith works by love, whether they’re conservative- or liberal-minded.

Hi Rich – I’ve been in several Pentecostal and charismatic churches and there are quite a few similarities to the world of IFB as depicted on this site and I certainly wouldn’t describe them as liberal. The rule of the Man-o-Gawd especially is not restricted to fundyland.

I got involved in a Charismatic type Group which started off well, genuinely seeking after God, but as time went on started going down some very strange rabbit holes. I got badly hurt, as did a lot of people. In my case it turned me away from God for many years. Yes, there can be parallels between IFB type Fundamentalism and Charismatic Groups. Both can become extreme. The problem is that what is considered “extreme” outside of those groups is often considered by those within the groups to be “Fundamental to the Faith”

While “standards” can lead to self-righteousness and a false standard of judgment, some of those things which were mentioned (movies, dancing, drinking) can be very unwholesome, especially suggestive dancing or dancing that illicts impure thoughts, and drinking can lead to drunkeness, death, broken relationships, financial ruin, etc. Shouldn’t believers be very careful about things which can “war against the soul” and ruin their testimony, or even destroy their lives?

There’s an apples and oranges difference between “being very careful” and doing what fundamentalist preachers do from the pulpit. Moderation is the key C.J. Just because someone drinks that doesn’t make them a drunkard. Just because someone dances that doesn’t mean that person will by default have lustful thoughts. Just because someone goes to the movies that doesn’t mean that they’re going to hell.

We are naturally sinful beings. It DOES mean that we will tend towards the sinful side of anything. Men love darkness rather than light. ALL of our righteousness is as filthy rags! We may say,”I’ll have a drink or two, but I’ll never get drunk.” But the Bible says, if any man thinks that he stands, take heed! lest he fall. And the Bible says that alcohol is not a sutable past time for even kings. And God Almighty is THE King, and we are His children in Christ, therefore we are literally royalty. We are heirs! Alcohol is not appropriate for us. The Bible says that he that drinks alcohol is not wise, that he is a fool. The same word found here for fool is the same word found when it says, “The FOOL hath said in his heart, there is no God.” If the Scriptures relate a foolish person who consumes alcohol as the equivalent of the fool who denies God and will perish in Hell for eternity, then God obviously is not fond of alcohol.

His first miracle was water to wine, yes. But the word wine, in the Greek in which it was written, could mean either alcohol or juice from the fruit of a vine. Which one is it then? I don’t know. There, I said it! Haha! Really, I don’t. I wasn’t there. So then to decide what Christ thought of alcohol, let’s look at what the rest of the Bible says about it… It’s not favorable. 😀

Mike- The Greek word for juice (gluche) is not used in the New Testament. The word oinos is used. It means wine. That’s all it means. Do you really think that the ancient Greeks could possibly confuse the words for winr and juice? If anyone knows the difference between wine and juice, it’s the ancient Greek and Romans.

Not all the passages in Scripture that speak on alcohol are negative. When they are negative, they are nearly always surrounded with a context of alcoholism and a lifestyle of drunkenness. Look at Proverbs 3:9-10 or the cup that runs over in Psalm 23. That cup was a symbol of God’s goodness. Do you think that cup was running over with milk?

I drink alcohol occasionally. But not much. I overindulged in the pass, and it’s just not worth it. but I’m not teetotal. I have no problem, with people who are teetotal, but I do have a problem with people who make total abstinence a vital part of salvation with those who think that a person who drinks any alcohol is not a Christian at all, and is headed for the fires of Hell. I grew up with people like that! Sometimes the Gospel Message becomes entangled with Cultural Preferences. I’m still trying to unpick many of them.

I agree about the many similarities pentecostal churches have with fundies. In fact, I usually define my background as fundy-ish. I grew up in an AG church. We considered ourselves highly liberated (NOT to be confused with liberal!) since we allowed women to wear pants & makeup unlike the other nearby pentecostal church. But one thing that seems to unite most Christians in my experience is the attitude that *my* sect, denomination, or church is the real thing and those other ones are suspect. I had someone tell me the other day that the people I was talking about couldn’t have been *real* Christians because real Christians don’t act that way. Yeah….

Kind of the point that fundamentalism has almost nothing to do w/ the actual fundamentals. I’m guessing there’s a large number of fundies with post grad degrees from fundy u’s that couldn’t get more than 1 or 2 of the funamentals right if you asked them for the list.

Don, it’s not The Five Fundamentals that are the target here. It is the legalism and crazy rules and personalities of the Independent Fundamental Baptists movement that is in the cross-hairs. Spend some time going through the various posts and comments. That’ll help you decide if you are a “Fundie” 😉

I grew up in Northern Ireland. I was immersed in the Ulster Protestant Evangelical Sub-Culture, which, when I was growing up, was like the IFB cubed. So many rules, so many “standards”, so little love or understanding for those who did not strictly toe the line 100% of the time. There is so much in this blood that resonates with me.

Not every fundamentalist is a legalist. I’m not sure that you completely understand the term “legalism”. A legalist believes that good works or a “holy life” or abstaining from what they comsider a carnal life, is what saves them. Faith in Christ is good, but only as good as your life is clean. I have never met ANY true Fundamental, Independent Baptist person who believes that. And again, you’re lumping EVERY SINGLE Independent Baptist into one camp? This is not Christ-like at all. Let’s be civil here, we all claim that we are serving Christ, and as long as we are not violating any moral, spiritual, doctrinal truth, then we should be able to pray for one another.

A legalist believes that good works or a â€œholy lifeâ€ or abstaining from what they comsider a carnal life, is what saves them.

You need to expand that “Narrow” definition of Legalist. It also includes those who would impose their standards on others in order to fellowship with them or use as a measuring stick whether or not to separate from them. It is anyone who claims their standards are the standards God personally uses as well. This also qualifies them for Weaker Brother status.

Ordained means to be sent with a mission. To be sent, someone must send you. That is where the local church comes in. God ordained 3 institutions: the home, government, and the local church. Since the local church is the only one of the three that is designed specifically to deal in matters of “religion” (for lack of a better word), then it is the local church that has the God-given authority to send, or ordain, someone. We see in the beginning of the book of Acts that Paul and Barnabas were called by the Lord, but did not go out until blessed and sent by their local church. But anyways, that’s where the ordaining of ministers comes from. It is the local church’s stamp of approval.

Ok, dude, here’s some advice. With a few exceptions, almost every poster on this blog has spent at least a few years (and many have spent most of their lives) in a fundamentalist camp and/or institution of some sort. While you might feel you’re serving some divine purpose by providing some sort of counterbalance to the “negativity” here, the truth is that you’re literally a walking fundy trope.
Consider your statement: “God ordained 3 institutions: the home, government, and the local church. Since the local church is the only one of the three that is designed specifically to deal in matters of â€œreligionâ€ (for lack of a better word), then it is the local church that has the God-given authority to send, or ordain, someone.” We know. WE ALL KNOW. THAT’S WHY WE’RE HERE. Not to have it rehashed and reargued for us. Some of us even spent years defending Fundamentalist precepts just like you’re doing now.
So before you continue popping in here like a bad chapel flashback, remember that many of us didn’t just graduate from Bible college. Lots of the posters here have ENTIRE LIVES worth of experience with which to argue from, and mindlessly spouting pre-programed arguments from Bible class is going to ring shocklingly hollow in response.
Fare thee well.

Mike: Calling people “angry” doesn’t work around here, and neither does claiming someone else’s feelings are hurt. It only shows us that you’re not willing to go for the issues, only the people. Not cool.

I believe that it’s silly to dogmatically cling to a title such as “Fundamentalist” or hold up the banner of “Old-Time Religion” when it’s all about CHRIST. If you believe in salvation by grace through faith then we could all just call each other CHRISTians and get along. That doesn’t mean you have to hold hands with everybody and sing kumbaya, but you can at least treat others a little better than the Antichrist. Be reminded that the people that ticked Jesus off the most were the Pharisees who were self-righteous in their own traditions. He had strong words for them. Strangely, he actually hung out with sinners and loved them.

I agree. I hate labels and self-righteousness used to belittle other Christians. It IS all about Christ! The only reason I say, “I’m a fundamentalist” is because it’s quicker than explaining my entire doctrinal belief on 20 different subjects. But we all put too much stock into labels. Jesus loved sinners and He ministered to them. He even said that the sick are who were in need of the Great Physician. He showed them love and compassion, but He was also always blameless. No false accusations ever stuck because, even though He spent much time with sinners, He was obviously, considerably different than them.

I am a Fundamentalist and an Independent Baptist. I have graduated from a Baptist Bible College and I am now serving in a local Baptist Church. While I do find some humor with a very small portion of this site, it just seems like a mockery of other Christians. Not every “fundy” is how you describe them here. And not everything that you ridicule them for is a bad thing. The idea behind being a fundamentalist is focusing on the Biblical fundamentals that Christ has given us to do. Honor Him in all that we do. Let your light so shine before men. Go ye into all the world. Come out from among them and be ye seperate. All Scripture is given by inspiration and is profitable. The Bible, not human reasoning is to be our sole authority for our faith. Be not conformed to this world (separation). We are to be a peculiar people, we are to have a sense of urgency when it comes to the Salvation of men’s souls. We are to live a different life than the unregenerate. Old things are passed away. We are to live like Christ. But it’s not all standards, I hate it when people focus on hair length and dress length (when maybe they should focus on their 3-hour sermon length). It’s not about us and it’s not about standards. It’s ALL about Christ. Standards are convictions. My conviction may be different than yours. We react in this manner based on the light that we have. In the end, yes- we should all be seeking to live a life, holy, acceptable unto the Lord. We are to be distinct from the world. People should see us and speak to us and know that we are different! Not “just like them”. Christ was not “just like” the Pharisees. He wasn’t even “just like” the prophets. They said of Him that no man ever spake as He did. He was different. And He says to us, “Be ye holy as I am holy.” So let’s not be so hateful to each other. I am proud to be a fundamentalist just as I’m sure you’re proud to be whatever you are. Just remember, don’t define the Bible by your faith, define your faith by the Bible.

“Fundy” means so much more than just Independent Fundamental Baptist – it is a word that is used to differentiate it from “fundamentalist” a word which has its own entomological baggage, but does have legitimate descriptive meaning. It unfortunately has been polluted and desecrated by “Fundies” – if you are offended by 80-90% of this site because it describes you, then you would be a “Fundy” if you are someone who believes with a conservative theological perspective who practices the Fundamentals as described in the book series “The Fundamentals” edited by A.C. Dixon and R.A. Torrey, but don’t do a bunch of crazy Fundie things, than perhaps you are just a Fundamentalist like many of the participants on this site.

I for my part will gladly admit that I grew up in the clutches of moderately extreme fundyism, and that even now my current church (IFB) although decidedly schizophrenic at times, still flops toward the Fundy side of things and causes me much pain and suffering as a result. I have made it my personal mission to minister to the damaged fundies and the recovering Pharisees until such time as I can no longer hold my nose on a few occasions and continue to have unity with this body. Many have chosen to abandon such churches as the transition to normalcy and a biblical basis for practice can be slow and painful and lurching, and I don’t fault them for this. As the member of the witch lynching mob said in Monty Python’s The Holy Grail, “…it got better”

God Bless you in your journey, and please, set aside any man-centered movement driven “standards” or “fundamentals” (your list seems a bit more than fundamental) and realize that many here have been hurt not by Biblical truth, but by those who claim to wield it, but deny the power of it by their actions. Bitter? Perhaps. Cynical? yup, you betcha. Truthful? Many times, yes. Understand that by making fun, Darrell and others here are removing the covers off of the unbiblical, man-exalting, and many times spiritually destructive behaviors that if you haven’t seen in the ranks of IFB churches than you are either very very fortunate and blessed or you are blind. We seek to speak truth and evaluate things with a Biblical viewpoint – its painful to evaluate your own life and ministry with objective and clear application of the text of scripture, but without it, Fundies will continue damning people to hell by their denial of the truth of the Word, and their offspring will continue to either follow them down the wide path to destruction or in some cases, will find genuine conversion due to the grace of God and abandon the sinking ship.

Yes, there will alwaus be people in every movement that will depart from Biblical truth in favor of personal vendettas. This is a sad fact, but unstoppable it seems. Even within a few years of Christ’s death and resurrection there were people departing from the truth, adding there own ideals. I am sorry for anyone who has been hurt by another Christian person. But remember, “For we wrestle not against flesh and blood…” we aren’t here to fight each other. So let’s not bicker over personal preferences and let’s all take up our swords to battle the devil and the wickedness in high places. We may disagree here, but we will sing praises to God, side by side in Heaven someday!

Um, have you ever BEEN in an IFB church? I’ve heard sermon after sermon attacking and judging other Christians over personal preferences. (I’ve been over 40 years in the IFB – sincy infancy – and six years at a fundamental university. I’m no newbie to fundamentalism.) This site is an opportunity for those of us raised this way to say, “HEY, it’s NOT about personal preferences! It IS about JESUS!” Our way of doing this is to point out all the man-made traditions that were held up as absolutely necessary standards for the obedient Chrsitian. We also sometimes just joke about “insider” things that we share – like flannelgraph and missionary display boards and stale crackers during communion.

Also, there are people here who have rejected Christianity altogether, but many of us are very serious about following Christ.

@pastorswife Yeah, I’ve been to many Fundy churches. I’ve heard some preachers come through and bash denominationalism, and though I don’t choose it for myself based on what I believe the Bible teaches, I think it wrong to demonize folks for thinking different. My friends in Scotland and N. Ireland are all Free Presbyterian, and working with them is near blasphemy to some Fundy’s. But those who demonize others without knowing them are just ignorant. I pity them. As long as they are doctrinally straight, then, as Christ said, “Forbid them not”.

Welcome! SFL is a place where post-fundamentalists like me come to reminisce about our past lives, sometimes laughingly, sometimes with great sorrow and pain (I’ve done both); but, speaking for myself, even when I’m in full sorrow/pain mode it’s always helpful to recount these things to better understand why they happened and to figure out what we can learn from them. Having said that, this is not a thinking-free zone. If anyone makes a blind leap of logic or says something that isn’t correct or honest, they will be pounced upon.

So I’ll pounce, gently. This time. 🙂

“The idea behind being a fundamentalist is focusing on the Biblical fundamentals that Christ has given us to do.” – And therein lies 90% of the problem with the movement: adding “to-dos” to the Fundamentals. The Fundamentals are those principles without which the Gospel collapses. Adding “to-dos” to the Gospel turns it into legalism.

“Be not conformed to this world (separation).” And that’s the remaining 10%: thinking “be not conformed to” is the same as “be not in the same room with.”

“Standards are convictions.” Wrong. Convictions are things you’d die for; standards are merely organizational principles designed to help everyone get along better.

But you’re right – the focus shouldn’t be on standards but on God and scriptural precision. That is foundational for any discussion, and I’m glad you’re already on that page.

So again, welcome! I do hope you’ll stick around and interact with us. I think you’ll find us a thoughtful bunch, capable of having thoughtful discussions on the matters Darrell brings up. If you can do the same I’m sure we’ll all end up sharpening ourselves through discussion.

Mike, you’re going to find all kinds of things on this sight – humor, anger, and everything in between. Most of us are relaying our stories from Fundyland. Hope you have a sense of humor. Otherwise, it’s going to be a bumpy ride.

I’m an assistant pastor of sorts. My wife and I work with the children on Wednesday nights. I teach Sunday School, lead singing at times. I do a lot of graphic design for our church as well. My wife and I are going to be missionaries to Scotland in a few years. I’m also a councilor for people in and outside of our church who just need answers from God’s Word.

Very much so! I’m Scottish by heritage, the red beard gives it away. I even got married in a kilt! Yep. A real “man-skirt”. You should see the faces of some of my fundy friends and fellow-laborers. Haha

Mike – Hello and welome, I’m not the official greeter or anything but I thought I would say hello and make a few comments before some of the other enthusiastic folks start to “weigh in” on your comments.

I guess I’ve been coming here for several weeks now and I had some of the same concerns as you, still do, about how some on here make a “mockery of other christians” as you say. I don’t know how much you have read on here but many of us have been seriously “damaged” by the erroneous IFB style of teaching/preaching. You are also correct in saying not all IFB’s are like that, but as you can see many of us here have had very similar experiences all across the country and I can’t believe that is a coincidence.

You have got several “hot button” issues that are definitely going to draw some attention here, but let me say that I completely agree it is all about Christ, and that we should be like Him. Jesus taught about concerning ourselves with that inward man, tooooo much of fundyism worries about the “outside of the cup”

God bless you and get your helmet on “INCOMING” btw when I say IFB, really this site is about fundamentalism in general.

I appreciate the greeting, and I fully expected some soon-to0come backlash. I wrote this while wearing a goalie’s mask, haha. I just think that this site, though inventive and sometimes comical, could truely mean something a little more if someone from “the other side” was here to legitimatize things. I grew up in a military family and was raised in over 10 different churches all over the country and even overseas. I have seen people who call themselves “fundamental” and “Independent Baptist” cause great harm and reproach to the name of Christ and even cause new Christians to fall by the wayside. It is tragic, but not limited to fundys as a whole. And you can’t lump IBF’s together, because we’re all Independent! Haha! That’s what’s so great! Each individual and local body of believers answers only to God and has no ties with others outside of friendship.
So again, thank you for your kindness and hopefully everyone here can discuss our views in a civilized manner. I pray that we can all grow from this and even get a good laugh once in a while. “A merry heart doeth good like a medicine; but a broken spirit drieth the bones.” Psalms

you can’t lump IBF’s together, because we’re all Independent! Haha! That’s what’s so great! Each individual and local body of believers answers only to God and has no ties with others outside of friendship.

No. No, no, and a thousand times no.

That’s what I grew up believing. I thought that if there were a few bad apples that it was no great indictment of the rest of the movement since every church is completely separated from the others.

But once you stop and look and you see the ties and common philosophies and the power brokering within the camps you see that this notion of Independence is nothing but a myth spun to allow the leaders the wiggle room to distance themselves from those who happen to get caught in wrongdoing.

The ‘lunatic fringe’ is never as far from the mainline of fundamentalism as fundamentalists want to believe.

True, some people seem to follow others. This is called influence. For most of us, it is nothing else. But thank you for your comment. I cannot speak for everyone, but as for myself, I am truely Independent as is the church I attend.

Mike,
Where do you get the idea that you and your church are supposed to be independent? I am racking my brain to find a way of “legitimizing” the polity of the Independent Baptist movement.
Do you find this kind of system in Acts? No.
In the Epistles? No.
Early Church history? No.
Why do you boast about independence when everything the Bible has to say about staunch individualism is negative? I spent several years in the Ind. Bap. church being fed the lie that the Bible teaches rock hard independence for the church. Mike, it’s a lie. The churches of the New Testament were in cooperation with one another. They had Apostles who set directions for them as a collective whole. They were nothing like the Ind. Bap. churches of today.

How can you possibly say that you and your church are not subject to influence? Did you all develop KJV onlyism on your own or did you learn it from your predecessors? Did you guys write your own hymn book or do you use one from a publishing company? Do you wear a shirt and tie to church or did you create your own clothing style? You are in no way independent. You are a coin stamp reproduction of almost every other independent Baptist in this country. You have said nothing on this site that we haven’t heard a thousand times before. It’s like you are all just one person commenting under various pseudonyms. You are merely regurgitating the same vomit that has been festering in this country for 70 years. Wake up friend. You are being deceived.

Why so angry? I’m no sheriff. Who made you the official pointer-outer of fundamentalist flaws? I’m just here doing what you’re doing. If you don’t like me, then ignore me. Really, it’s cool.
@AP Sullivan
Dude, you are just so angry. I really do feel bad that I have caused this much strife to rise up in you. Please forgive me. Yes, I have influences on my life. The greatest influences are the people that I have personally seen the love of Christ in their lives and the power of God in their ministries. Guess what? whatever our flaws, God still DOES use fundamentalist people for His glory to accomplish great things and to see souls saved from eternal damnation! Just as He has used Methodist people throughout the years and people of other stripes. Maybe even you A.P.! Just don’t be so upset. Now, as for Indepenent church polity: yes, I do see it in Acts. Each local assembly was independent, having Christ as the head and the Pastor as the under-shepherd. The church in Rome was not over the church in Philippi. The church in Jerusalem was not over the church at Thessolonica. The apostles did write letters to correct and sometimes rebuke them, as in the case of the carnal church at Corinth. But never did Paul say, “Change or you’re not Christian anymore.” Paul wrote to them under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit. Now we have the complete Word of God for ourselves, readily available at any time! This is our guidebook. That’s why I’m Independent. Now I know that you are just fuming right now and can’t wait to get to typing a blistering response filled with your “logic” and all-knowing wisdom. But before you do, just take a deep breath, get a drink. I would say a non-alcoholic one, but that’s just me, so do what you will. And remember, I’m not trying to disrespect you or offend you. So let’s be civil. 😀

Mike: You’re not going to get anywhere calling everyone “angry”. I certainly didn’t see it in the posts.

FTR, those who say the churches were *not* fully independent were right. These churches did cooperate. They didn’t rule over each other, but they certainly did share information and work together for common goals.

Also, IFB churches are generally not fully independent now. If you know where the pastor went to college, you’ll know his positions on many issues. I grew up in a Hyles church and graduated from BJU. It doesn’t take me long once I walk into an IFB church to recognize if the pastor is from BJU or HAC. The only IFBs who are truly independent are those whose pastors didn’t attend college or seminary anywhere, and then you have no idea what doctrine you’ll get. Some of those guys get pretty scary.

Okay, you said you found independent polity in Acts but you conspicuously cited none. No one in any denomination thinks that the church in Rome was over the church in Philippi. If that’s what you mean by independent, then even the Roman Catholics are independent. The Catholic church in New York isn’t over the Catholic church in Atlanta is it? That’s not the point that anyone is trying to make but you defend it nicely so thanks I guess.

The idea of a church that has no authority except for one man behind a pulpit and his view of Scripture is found nowhere in the Bible.

I never said that the “man behins the pulpit” is the only head. The Bible is the authority. If the pastor is violating the Scriptures, then the congregation have the right to leave or to ask him to leave. They then should vote on a pastor who is Biblically sound.

Why so angry? Iâ€™m no sheriff. Who made you the official pointer-outer of fundamentalist flaws? Iâ€™m just here doing what youâ€™re doing. If you donâ€™t like me, then ignore me. Really, itâ€™s cool.

Angry? Not quite.Who made you the official pointer-outer of fundamentalist flaws? Life experience, I’ve paid some dues just like the rest of on this site have done. And we don’t take kindly to folks that ride into town and declare, “I just think that this site, though inventive and sometimes comical, could truely mean something a little more if someone from â€œthe other sideâ€ was here to legitimatize things.”

That, “this site could mean something a little more if someone from the “other side” was here to legitimatize things,” is about the most arrogant statement one could make. You asked who made me, “the official pointer-outer of fundamentalist flaws?” Then let me ask you, “Who made you the official legitimizer of what is posted on this site?”

And no you’re not here doing what I’m doing. You only get one chance to make a first impression and you did. You come with an agenda to set things in order the way you see fit, and in the short time you have been here you are on track to prove your Fundie bonafides.

This is a letigimate site and the posts you see are legitimate as well.(no need for outside validation) We often deconstruct Fundie sacred cows around here. We follow truth wherever it leads and sometimes that will shatter fragile Fundie formulas and long held traditions.

You’re welcome as can be around here and we all have a pretty good time. We all enjoy a good discussion and tolerate other’s POV. None of us knows it all, nor do we claim to. Here we are on a journey out of the Fundie wilderness and Fundie Bunkers headed towards whatever is next. We are all at diferent points in our personal journey and you are invited to come along and journey with us… so long as you don’t try and give us back the Fundie luggage we have discarded so far.

Maybe it’s just the way that I read things. Perhaps sarcasm comes across as frustration or anger. I suppose I’ll have to change the tone in which I read. As for the Independent thing, I agree with you. Churches are meant to be independent, but that does not mean that they are supposed to be isolationists.

Individual Soul Liberty then. That is what I mean. Just like I have the liberty to believe and worship how I see fit, you have the liberty to be part of a denominational church with a national headquarters. I may disagree with you, but I have to respect your right to do as you feel is right according to the Scriptures.

Really? I’m honored. Haha. I wonder if it’s to consider it or pick it apart? Either way I appreciate it. Hopefully it is helpful to someone and insightful to others. Thought-provoking! That is what I hope that it becomes.

Bro, do yourself a favor. Read through the comments on the posts over the last 2 months or so and consider the exploits of fundy apologists who have since departed. At the very least, you should get a pretty good idea of what doesn’t work here.

That’s not a bad idea. I was trying to do that, there’s just so many posts to go through. I’m not here because I think that I can change anyone’s views. I’m really not going to try to. I’m just here to express what a real-live fundamentalist believes… and maybe for a little entertainment. I don’t have any new revelation or material that is going to send everyone on this sight running for a KJV Bible or have them thow away their Christian rock CD’s. I just want to be a voice of a fundamentalist who isn’t hateful. Maybe just to change the perception that EVERY one who claims fundamentalist values is mean and rejecting of anyone who is different. Fair enough?

I’m suprised that you say, “Iâ€™m just here to express what a real-live fundamentalist believes” as if none of us know any. I can hear what a real-live fundamentalist believes any time I talk to my parents or my husband’s parents or many of my college friends, etc.

I will truly rejoice if more fundamental churches learn to focus on the true fundamentals and stop equating man’s standards as equal to God’s Word.

The standards that I have in my life used to come from my parents. I went to a Fundamentalist college, very fundy, and I lived under their rules and standards. I am now married and expecting our first child and now I have to set my own rules. Some things the Bible is very specific about, therefore that is my standard- the Bible. Some things the Bible is almost silent about. I don’t listen to my conscience, because the Bible says that my conscience can be seared. So I listen to the convicting power of the Holy Spirit, the One who dwells withing me. Man’s personal preferences are not inspired. I do not answer to men. I answer to God. pastor’s wife- you are correct. We must learn to focus on the true fundamentals and stop equating manâ€™s standards as equal to Godâ€™s Word. The book of Revalation warns that no one should add to or take away from the Word of God or else there was a severe judgement to be paid. Adding our own personal beliefs to God’s Word is wrong.
I’m sure that you all know fundys and hear from them all the time, but they are not here to debate, so I am. I guess it may just offer more entertainment for everyone else here in the form of a faceless person to taunt, but that’s okay with me. I just want to be friendly and let everyone know that even as the uber-fundy that I am, I still love other Christians as brothers and sisters in Christ.

I’m reading through this after the fact and just wondering, why do these guys come along and think we need to know what a “real live fundamentalist” believes? We were all fundamentalists. WE KNOW. Good night, the arrogance.

Know what? I actually worked security for a concert and casting crowns was there! In fact, I ate lunch with them, the Newsboys, and Toby Mac. And I had front row center tickets to Petra’s last US show a couple of years ago. Did I just blow your mind? Haha. No wine for me though please. Also, I like wearing a suit and tie, I look good in them. I even have a big red beard! A big fundy no-no.

Haha, yeah. Petra. John Schlitt was the man. Now, granted, I don’t listen to their music anymore, not that I don’t appreciate their apparent love for the Lord. I just don’t listen to it anymore. I don’t have place for it in my life at this point.

Oh this is getting fun now. As one who grew up in fairly straight-laced churches and definitely did time at a Fundy U (BJU for 3 semesters), I’ve seen first-hand the damage that is done. I’ve also heard all the same rhetoric as our new friend is laying out. It doesn’t change and the tone of the posts are from one trying to “convince” others.

Myself, I’m still in a mainline denomination (C&MA) but an am avowed “denominational agnostic”. I’m not a huge fan of the big-box churches of any ilk as I think they water down what the local church is supposed to be. My blot regularly sports posts from 6-7 different translations/transliterations and I love to read all of them (ESV being my current preference).

So Mike – do stay and chat, but please don’t try to defend it by saying you are different. We’ve all seen it and chosen to leave it behind for a much better thing … a clearer view of Grace. God is working a much bigger story than we even have recorded in the Bible. If that makes me a neo-evangelical and one given to meta-narrative theology, then so be it. I’d rather listen to His heart than to anybody’s set of rules and interpretations.

My favorite rule on the rule list is #41. Microphone feedback during a sermon is a sure sign of satanic attack against the preacher.
I always heard people say that and thought, “The sound guy is possesed then.” Haha, that’s hilarious!

Oh man what a revelation! You’re right Mike. I wish you had come to this site a long time ago. All the other fundamentalists who have come to this site have said exactly what you are saying, nearly verbatim. Somehow they just weren’t as convincing as you.

I mean, when I think of the years I spent as an apologist for fundamentalism, the Bachelor’s degree I received in Biblical Studies, the time I spent working toward an M.Div. from a fundamentalist seminary and I never learned a thing about fundamentalism. If only I had heard all of this before!

Oh my soul cries out! May the trumpets of Heaven resound at the great truth you have brought us!

You have brought a new gospel to me! What wisdom! What experience! You have been a member of more than 10 churches. You know thousands of fundamentalists. That changes everything. The facts that I have been on Pastoral staff at that many fundamentalist churches and have been in churches where there are thousands of people is inconsequential to your experience. Can it be that the Lord God Almighty has brought you to this website to us who know so little? Has he commissioned you to say the same stuff weâ€™ve heard for years but somehow change all of our minds? Indeed he has!

I never realized that Christianity was all about me! All this time I’ve been worried about pleasing and imitating Jesus. What a waste! I never knew that, â€œit all comes down to each personâ€™s personal conviction on whatever matter is at hand.â€ I thought that even in matters of Biblical silence, it was my responsibility to have developed such a strong relationship with God that I could try to do that thing that would be most pleasing to him. All this time I could have thought about myself and not the interest of others. Philippians 2:4 is wrong! I have the right to do whatever I want if the Bible doesnâ€™t give me an out and out command. Why should I try to use my brain? Thank God for bringing us the holy works of Thomas Hobbes, Ayn Rand, and Friedrich Nietzsche, for they have brought us the truth of Ethical Egoism! You have embraced the works of these godly thinkers and have brought down the Promethean fire of Heaven to us lowly mortals. Fear not SFL readers! Mike has arrived!

My God! Your examination of the role of Biblical fatherhood is unparalleled. As a man who is waiting for your first child, you have corrected me, a father of two, in my mistaken ways. I have been trying to raise my children according to their own personality traits, their interests, correcting and training in the way that they would best respond to, all under the guidance of Scripture. But you! Oh my soul you have brought new truth! The father and husband, â€œhas the right to direct his whole house in whatever manner that he feels that the Lord has led him.â€ If I FEEL like God is doing something, he is! I have rights! Donâ€™t tread on me! Iâ€™m the man of the house! Sweet Lord!

Could you do me a favor? Will you spend the last ten years of you life getting a B.A. and working on an M.A. and M.Div in Biblical Studies? Will you also spend the last seven years raising two sons? Will you also go back to college and pursue a degree in Philosophy so you can better understand life and Scripture? Will you also spend the last ten years preaching, teaching, and studying the Bible on staff on numerous churches? Can you do that for me so youâ€™ll know what it feels like to have all of your experience and knowledge crushed by the wisdom of some stranger who doesnâ€™t know his Bible from his elbow on a blog?

Thank Heaven for you Mike. Youâ€™re really out there making a difference for Jesus.

I’ll be honest. I didn’t even read this whole thing you just typed. I realize that it was out of anger and I know that you’re someone who loves Jesus and would never want to intentionally hurt somebody. Look man, I’ve got a couple of Theological degrees myself. I’m not some zombie like you think I am. You have just naturally assumed some things about me. But that’s okay. I have inadvertantly troubled your wife I believe, and I know that I have ruffled your feathers. Sorry. I have no intention of insulting you or causing you to be angry. And I would never even dream of saying that your father-in-law was right just because he said he was a fundy. I don’t know the whole story, and I don’t need to. It’s none of my business. Just know that I don’t hold anything against you. Best wishes to you and your personal walk with the Lord.

Dude I am not angry. I am really not getting this. I’m literally sitting here smiling as I’m reading your stuff. I laughed as I typed that bit of satire above. You really should read it, I think it’s quite good. 😆

You have upset my wife because you have the same blinders on that every single fundy I have ever met has. You are unwilling to listen. Neither of us, she much worse than me, have ever spent a significant amount of time in an IFB church without being seriously hurt by close friends, family, and leadership.

But please realize that I am not angry at you. I am actually quite capable of having a dialogue without getting angry. (something I’ve never seen in a fundy church)

Okay, you’re not angry. Sorry I kept saying that. When I read, I really get into it sometimes. I guess I was reading you sarcasm as bitting wrath. haha. Now, I’m a fundy, and I’m not angry. So now you’ve met one. I enjoy commenting here because I need to know what I believe and why I believe it. Not just ’cause some IBF “icon” said it. This allows me to sharpen my reasoning skills and question whether I’m right or not. I take every serious comment into consideration and put it against the Scriptures. I’ve been hurt by “fundys” too. Our pastor in Geilenchircken, Germany slandered my family for two years before resigning. This was a military family church that we helped start! Yeah, there are some bad people out there with the ability to hurt others. I am ashamed of them and hope never to become them. Please accept my friendship and we’ll agree to disagree, but always in good humor and brotherly kindness.

AP, isn’t it something that fundies tell people when the fundie believes such person is angry! If I had a nickle for every time I was told, “you are angry” or better yet, “You are bitter” I would be rich like Bill Gates. Seems that these people who tell me this, don’t even know me, if they did, they would realize I have a life, and spend very little time, thinking about what they think about me. I did laugh at your comment. It was well written. Fundies just don’t seem to get it that some things really should be taken tongue in cheek. 😈 Awww well. 🙄

Perfect. That’s what we all want, for you to come here prepared for open dialogue to slug out the issues about why you hold to fundamentalism. What we don’t need is someone who thinks he or she is the voice of the Lord come to reprove us all. We’ve (mostly) all been fundies and we are hands down done with it. But, most of us would love to really address the gaps in fundy thinking and theology.

@A.P. – you are so right. The vast majority get angry, even though they will claim they are just broken-hearted because you are in error. But they know the truth about God having rooms of crowns and rewards He will show us that we missed because we didn’t follow all the rules to the letter.

Oh, and the sure sign of a fundy is to ask for the interpretation of the “Prodigal Son” parable …

Hi A.P.,
I know I’m one of the quieter members of this forum. I tend to read a lot, laugh and spit Coke out my nose a lot, and learn a lot about different things here. On this particular page I’ve been pretty quiet. But I have to say, this post of yours surprised me. It’s one thing to point out what you believe to be fallacies in what Mike is saying. It’s quite another to be really sarcastic about it. Mike may be a self-identified fundy, but he’s an awfully polite self-identified fundy, don’t you think? I’m just sayin’.

Not particularly…just because he’s more apologetic than the rest and backs down a little more easily than some of the others, but the story is all still the same. Also, the post was not sarcasm, it was intended to be satire. A.P. also goes on to explain at the bottom the initial flaws in his attempt to “balance us”.

@grace2live – No I don’t think he is.
And satire is a historically appreciated form of writing intended to demonstrate the position of the opponent ad absurdum. It’s quite effective. If only I were a more talented satirist.

I have been thinking about my own upbringing recently and have mixed feelings about it. I wasn’t part of the IFB-type fundamentalist set-up but my upbringing was very strict, typical of Protestant Northern Ireland, where “Holiness” was largely determined by rules and taboos (mostly taboos). On the negative side,it left me with a lot of difficulties dealing with the real world outside of the Chritian Bubble, and distorted my image of God (to me, he was the ultimate party-pooper). On the positive side, it gave me a knowledge of the gospel and the Scriptures, (almost without realising it), which has stood me in good stead. It also ingrained into me a set of standards which, given my wayward nature, have helped to ke me out of trouble

Do you see my point. That’s how you presented yourself to us. If you had come here asking questions and desiring knowledge, then no one would have had a problem. Instead, you came here with your chest puffed out telling us that you were going to teach us all the truth. Garbage can lid.

This is an interesting site. I have been associated with Fundamentalism for about 35 years since I moved my membership from a Southern Baptist Church to an Independant Baptist Church. That was before the SBC conservatives effectively brought the Convention back from the brink of terminal Liberalism. In those days, many “fundies” were proud to have only been educated in the “school of hard knocks!” But, there were a number of upcoming pastors who were seeking advanced degrees. They have been the leading edge of a new wave of “fundies” that believe that sound doctrine and practice can be fortified without compromise by serious education. Some used to say there was no time to get those degrees because the Lord was coming back!How foolish! Today, we are seeing well-trained, educated Fundamentalists coming into pulpits around the nation and world. And, these leaders still teach appropriate separation from the patterns of the world. We can be Fundamentalists in 2011, rather than continuing to conform to patterns established in the 50s.

It is important that you separate the Fundamentals of the faith,(Which you will find most around here believe in) from the cult of Fundamentalism.

Read through the posts and see fundamentalism for what it has become. Fundamentalism is a mancentered religious paradigm. It claims to be biblical but has caused more carnage and done more damage to the cause of Christ than an army of atheists could accomplish in two lifetimes.

Our motive is to expose error and warn others, through our combined experiences, about the pitfalls and dangers of the cult of fundamentalism.

The cult of Fundamentalism is such things as King James onlyism (the worship of a Translation of the scripture), Man of god worship (little “g” on purpose because the M-O_g stands and claims to be speaking for god and if you question him [the M-O-g] then you are questiond god himself) also the M-O-g claims he is not accountable to anyone but god…when you are only accountable to god, you become the only god you are accountable to. Separation from other believers because they do not hold to everything the way we holed to everything. Works sanctification where they give lip service to Grace then surround themselves with a weithy list of rules in order to know who is “right with god” and who isn’t… judging someone else’s heart by their appearance, suit/tie/haircut/dress/music/Bible version/involvement in soulwinning… etc., etc., etc.

Do we attack Fundamentalism and the institutional enablers of the system? You bet your sweet bippy we do. Do we attack the Fundamentals of the faith? I would say that you will find in these pages a better than average defense of the Fundamental of the Faith. (do we have discussions of the same? yep! but we agree on more than we disagree on around here and that is Christian Unity like I never saw in 40 odd years in the Fundie Bunker society.)

Again I stand by the Fundamentals of the Faith but I reject Fundamentalism and those who preach Fundamentalism over the word of God. I especially reject the one man rule found in most Baptist churches. (see Lord Action’s Axiom) I reject the Cult of Personality that promotes a Christian Caste system which practices “pastorate superior” over “sheeple inferior.” I reject substandard preaching of moral relativism based on extra biblical standards couched in terms of “Old Paths”, “landmarks”, “keeping the main thing the main thing”, and other pastoral catch phrases.

In short, I hate the entire system of Independent, Baptist Fundamentalism. It is a cult that enslaves its followers, and seeks to punish those who dare question the movement and it’s leaders. The best advice I can give to anyone who finds themselves in this cult is “Run! Run to the nearest exit and don’t look back!”

This is a very sad site indeed. Some of the very things people on here accuse “Fundies” of they are guilty of themselves. They hate the fundamentalists who take a broad brush to everyone else they disagree with, then proceed to use that same broad brush to paint every man/ministry/church who ever took the label “fundamentalist”. As usual on such a site there is the mixing of truth with error, and of fact with fiction. Many (not all) are so obviously twisted and bitter it is actually pathetic to read. The patently unchristian and uncharitable spirit of some fundamentalists has infected some posters, so that now they are indistinguishable from the very “fundies” they love to hate. Look at yourselves, why don’t you? If I was an ungodly worldling (is there such a thing to you liberated people?) reading your posts I would be just as repulsed by you as I would be by that fat dictator-pastor in the big “B” church you were “delivered” from!

I am so sorry to bother you all, but I’m the “controlled environment” MBBC prof and I cannot find that thread anywhere on SFL. Darrell, can you please help me? I just want to re-read some of those comments. Thanks much!

Just be careful. I’m sorry that our parent’s generation of Christians almost completely destroyed Christianity as a whole..There are crazy conservative churches out there as well as crazy liberal-not-really-even-Christian churches out there.

I grew up in an IFB church…and yes the former staff was very hypocritical, judgmental and nearly legalistic (i try not to use that word lightly)Many kids fell out of church because of their influence..

But that same church now has a new pastor, new staff and are really growing and on fire for God, they’re not crazy conservative..actually they’re kind of made fun of by the super conservative churches for being so liberal!! lol In my eyes, however, they are still conservative compared to really any other church in the christian “circle”.

I’m sorry you all grew up in such a horrible, terrible, abusive and cult-ish church…

But if you’re going to call yourself a Christian, do us ALL a favor (regardless of baptist, methodist..etc) and don’t bass each other in front of the unsaved eyes of this world.

Satan has started working and is doing a tremendous job on this website! 🙂 Good job, fellow christians. I commend you in steering away poor innocent unsaved victims from the wickedness of those super crazy, cult-like Christians who just happen to believe in the same Jesus you do… Who knows…maybe they might have gotten saved in one of those church and became just LIKE THEM!!!! OH how that would have effected YOUR life..

It’s people and boards like this that make me cringe to call myself a christian (YES i’m IFB but i wear pants.. and i’m a woman!!)

This is what Christians look like to the world. Use your great creative talents and try to win them over to a Loving God instead of turning them away from him.

Holly, We all have problems. I’m happy that you have healed and moved on …so have I. I’m happy that your church leadership has changed for the positive. This web site is full of damaged people. Damaged by..how did you say it, “Crazy Conservative Churches.” We all need to heal. I joined this forum to aid in that healing. Why did you? I believe that is why it was created. I believe that most if not all the people on this site love God

I have a ton of unsaved friends whom I have witnessed to for years and they are turned off to Christ as a result of the guilt associated with “Fundies” and their man made rules which they preach as Gods law. All I can do is pray for them and share with them that a loving relationship with Christ can be free of the guilt connected with all the man made rules.

lol RobM. Yes, I have nodded my head in agreement to some of this stuff. And if anyone is more apt to laugh at themselves, it’s going to be me. I appreciate the humor and lighthearted-ness in everything.

But I just want to say one thing then i’ll probably leave the site..

I’m not angry at this site, i’m not looking to start an argument or debate, i’m not here to condemn anyone..My “tone of voice” over here is actually pretty calm and i’m busy with work…so i’m not angrily typing away..

That said, It does make me sad to see this type of site simply because (yes while some of it may be true) it demeans my “religion”. Seriously, if my unsaved friends saw it they wouldn’t want to be a Christian because of how we Christians act towards each other. I like to think of it as a family.

My physical family is so full of problems. All families are. But I love my family and I wouldn’t air my dirty laundry simply because it’s not respectful and I want people to see my family in a good light, especially if their faults aren’t more than personal preferences or disagreements between our family… Hope that makes sense..probably not.

Anyway, this site isn’t about laughing at ourselves. It really isn’t. It has a very judgmental, bitter sounding attitude. We do need to be careful how we present ourselves. It’s not the most wise or profitable thing to do. It certainly isn’t HELPING Christianity anyway..

Thats all I’m saying. Do what you want. It doesn’t effect me personally, but it is hurting the name of Jesus Christ.

if you went to a fundemental school it is certain you sat there and never learned a thing did you. a scripture comes to mind concerning you ever learning but never able to come to the knowlege of the truth this must apply to you furthermore the bible states the truth will set you free but one must know the truth before it will set them free you dont the truth and can not handle it

Fundies and the weather. The mog used to somehow think he controlled the weather. Every sunny Saturday morning was because of his mighty prayer asking god to hold back the rain for soulwinning. On occasions when it would rain…it was because the church cut back on their devotion time that week and allowed satan to interject on soulwinning thereby allowing x number of sinners to go to hell that week. sigh!

It’s passive-aggressive because they’re being condescending, but they can pretend they’re being kind. They’re following the letter of the law by supposedly loving their enemy – “See, I’m calling him ‘my friend’.” – but they’re completely missing the spirit of the law because they do not mean what they say (in most instances).

I agree with you. It’s almost like you can sense the venom coming through the page, disguised by a sneer/smile.

I’ve just been called “friend” by someone who thinks that gays are not oppressed at all in the states. The first two paragraphs are pure “you’re an idiot” followed by the “friend” signoff so they’re doing it in love, right? The best was a woman who signed off by saying that “I hope you one day come to know Jesus, my dear fellow”.

I must say that your Web Site is informative about the hypocrisies of fundamentalists! I also find your Web Site to bring amusement to me. I came out of a RC religious background, where you could sin all week long, and then go to confession Sat or Sun andbe forgive, and then start all over again on Monday!

I am a Christian through the miraculous saving power of Jesus Christ! I’m far from perfect, and admit that I need forgiveness & help from God, my family, and friends everyday to be the best I should.

I would like to be able to send my videos to you for comments (negative or positive)so that I can know if anything needs to change, or is foolish and is not true! I couldn’t find an email address anywhere, so I would need a e-mail address to send the to. I would not publish it, or Bcc it.