‘Game Of Thrones’ Discussion: ‘The Watchers On The Wall’

(Note: to help clear up the discussion thread congestion, we’re publishing two Game of Thrones recaps this season, one for book readers and one for non-book readers. Doing it this way means those who have read A Storm of Swords and A Feast for Crows don’t have to begin every conversation with “SPOILER,” or those who haven’t won’t need to worry about learning something they shouldn’t.)

In the ninth episode of season one of Game of Thrones, Ned Stark lost his head. In season two, “Blackwater.” Season three, “The Rains of Castamere.” Now we have “The Watchers on the Wall,” the show’s most expensive episode yet, and probably the weakest of The Penultimates (any excuse to use that word). There was a lot to like, but ultimately, it all comes down to Jon Snow.

Compared to Arya and Tyrion and Davos and Jaime and pretty much every other main character, Jon is fairly bland — he looks and acts like he was designed by Tumblr, and the planning stopped there. He’s got a interesting back story to draw upon, but so much of his time on-screen is spent either moping, or unconvincingly yelling at people to do things; he’s a drip of a hero. That’s why viewers responded so positively to Ygritte, because not only is Rose Leslie awesome, but she’s a wild spark, someone whose mere presence made Jon Snow more interesting. But now she’s gone, and her last scene didn’t have the emotional weight it should have. One of my minor complaints for this season has been knowing that Ygritte’s death was coming, and the show spending so little time with her. I think she was on-screen for longer in her campfire showdown with the Thenns than she was this entire season.

But! There was a lot of stuff I loved in “Watchers,” too, especially Neil Marshall’s directing. He once again found a way to make a TV show budget look like a movie. The scope of the Wall, the giants, the mammoths, the brutality of the violence, it was a great, well paced episode to LOOK at, especially when the camera circled around the action, checking in on the individual fights, and the direwolf POV. Shots from atop the Wall are neat, but when you’re looking way down or way up, it’s less about the inherent drama of people fighting for their lives than it is the visual, and “Watchers” was too often all visual.

Ultimately, this was a technically impressive episode that felt hollow. Even Jon admits this was a tiny battle, especially when compared to what happened in “Blackwater,” which affected nearly EVERYONE on the show. (It helps that “Blackwater” also had a definitive ending, not Jon looking for Luke on Hoth — the battle in the books ended very differently.) I loved the spectacle of “The Watchers on the Wall,” and especially the motherf*cking giants riding motherf*cking mammoths and OMG a scythe, but I’m not sure I’ll ever have the urge to watch it again. Jon’s too much of a know-nothing.

Everyone seems to be going on about the awesome fight scene but what about that bit right at the beginning when Sam is telling Jon that the bit about not sleeping with women is really up to interpretation. If he said that out loud to the rest of Castle Black he could have caused a riot.

I wondered about that as well. I don’t see how he could know; Tormund’s party didn’t have ravens or anything. But then again, last season, Rattleshirt somehow knew that Ned Stark was dead, which I don’t know how he’d get that information, either. So I guess we’ll just have to wait and see.

This is still pissing me off a bit: Janos the Coward says “there’s no such thing as giants,” and that seems to be something of a common belief, but everyone seems to be totally in agreement that dragons definitely exist? and White Walkers? and Wargs? and all kinds of magic? Like, where does disbelief begin and end for these people?

I don’t know if everyone actually believes in dragons. There was a scene in the first season where Jorah seemed to kind of scoff at the idea. “I believe what my eyes and ears record,” I think he said. They’ve been extinct for a long time, and some people, even those who’ve seen their skulls in King’s Landing, may choose to believe they never existed. Other than that, it’s what Procrasty said.

And wargs and white walkers are definitely things that most of the world does not believe exist. Even Ned Stark and Maester Luwin didn’t believe in those things.

Dragons are kinda hard to deny because they were around relatively recently, but they’re still viewed as extinct, the few in Westeros who know about Dany’s are still dismissive because of how tiny and useless dragons got before they had died off before. Other things are similar, they were real once but they’ve all been dead so long they can’t possibly still exist anymore, only with them it’s so long no one is sure what if anything about them was actually true.
Guys at The Wall believe in more things because they can actually see them but Slynt is from Kings Landing and thinks the Nightswatch is just a worthless force fighting an easily defeatable enemy, so the revelation he was wrong has just kinda broke his brain.

Seeing is believing basically, but only a handful have, so everyone else is still just hand waving it all.

This was a dour review today, well boo to you I enjoyed the hell out of that. Neil Marshall is good at this, also this is the first time I’ve really got an impression of Castle Black as a location, plus that panorama shot was fantastic.
Some thoughts:

Ghost survived! (I was worried)
Pyp did not…
Commander Edd! (Go for the throne Edd I’m behind you!)
Bye Grenn…
Peasant kid vengeance!
Against Ygritte…
Jon getting to do the awesome warrior thing he’s good at!
You fought valiantly brave giant gay couple, but it was not to be (ok that’s just my reading, but I reckon it hold up).

My one question – why did they wait so long to dump the fire barrels on the giants/wooly mammoths (or whatever they were)? They let them pull and pull for at least 20 min (GoT time, not screen time) before finally dumping it. Great episode so it’s not a huge deal, but it did pull me out of the moment for a bit given there really was no reason except for dramatic purposes, which I always feel is cheap.

@Michael Valentine Smith Whoa, whoa, simmer down now.
– I loathe spoilers
– I would never hint at or ruin anyone’s fun with this great series
– I only talk about the episode itself, and characters as they are presently
– It’s more fun here, so, deal.

Also w/ the Fat Sam thing, in my defense, he’s much cooler in book……and by much, I mean slightly, they actually called him Sam the Slayer after murking the WhiteWalker… He’s a spaz imo. A fat spaz

I know it’s late in the discussion and I’m probably talking to myself here, but holy shit, Styr is fucking huge. He looked like a lankier, faster version of the mountain during that fight with Jon Snow

really not understanding the lack of love for Jon Snow he’s at the wall with one other character thats really been fleshed out its not as if he has people to have some big memorable speech with and he’s still a badass he’s jumped off an elevator and promptly killed 9 people then proceeded to march off on his own to fight Mance. That being said Ghost is the best character

Snow also suffers from where he is: the Wall scenes are all dimly lit black-and-white stuff, and they’re all pasty skinned and dressed in white too. It all looks like some European art film from the 1940s.

@JJ Jr. If it was Hobb then Allister Thorne’s threat to have Ghost put into a stew makes more sense, because otherwise it was just “I’m going to have your wolf eat the cook”, which isn’t that threatening, at least not towards the right person.

I did some research and no joke: that dude’s name is Cleaverman in the books!! Though I guess it’s kind of a nickname, as nobody knows his real name. He’s a very mysterious character. Book nerds liken him to Boba Fett from Star Wars. He doesn’t say much. He doesn’t appear often. But when he’s around, he’s always the baddest motherfucker in the room and beats down mouthy twats left and right!

Apparently, he’s not even a part of the Night Watch. He thinks oaths are for cunts and that even if he could give up all the women… women would never give him up as he is a true pussy magnet (rumors around the kingdom say he even bedded Queen Cersei back in the day while King Robert watched – kinky!).

I still haven’t found out exactly why he was chilling at the Wall, but I was surprised to see that the fight scene in the dining hall was actually in the books. I guess he was enjoying a nice bowl of book soup and took offense to people interrupting his meal. So he straight murdered the shit out of all those noisy Wildlings and once done, sat right back down and finished his soup. Never interrupt Cleaverman’s “souptime”.

Plus people can’t count and just estimate. At least when the lords bring the banners together they have a better idea cause each one gives a smaller number. The Wildings, who is to say? 100k or 50k or 150k I could believe it all. Remember that shot of their giant camp in season 2?

@MissingLink Mance sent Tormund and Ygritte to OPEN the gate from the other side. If they had gotten the gates open from behind, it would have been worth the gamble. His main army appears to still be hiding behind the firewall if you will.

But even if Mance did send his B-team, sending hard asses like Giantsbane and Ginger was risky…but, almost got the job done with a small % of his army….and only lost 2 giants…..Mance is gonna be so jackass, he’s a alpha general

Jon said it was basically just a scrimmage to them, testing their defense.. He knows they can’t survive a full on assault, so he’s doing the only thing he can, try and take out the boss of the North himself

I haven’t read the books, so forgive me if I’m inadvertently presaging stuff that’s going to happen, but I find it a little strange that after all the abrupt hand-wringing Melisandre did last season about “the real battle” going on in the north against the White Walkers, etc., we haven’t seen that acted on.

Also, have the lords of the Seven Kingdoms just completely abandoned the Night’s Watch by now, to the point where no one gets sent up there anymore? I guess with the Boltons in charge of the North, they’re just flaying people, but what about the rest of Westeros? Is it because of the Ironborn running around the North? Just wondering what other people’s perspectives on that are.

Oh, and Aemon Targaryen is now the character on the show about whom I want to learn the most. I hope we get more interaction between him and Sam in the future of that storyline.

Remember that earlier in the season Roose Bolton pointed out that the Iron Born held Moat Caillin and as long as they did not one could get into the North. So even if Kings Landing was inclined to send massive reinforcements they wouldn;t have been able to get through until last week’s episode.

I think they see the wall as like a prison, no real threat send trash, criminals, bastards there… I don’t think they believe in all that magic b.s….Even Janos said “there’s no such thing as giants” not to mention how fuckin self involved everyone is down south…

The small council knows about Danny and dragons, so any news of other fantasy stuff should raise some eyebrows…..but I guess they are, putting it off for another weekend when their not busy plottin and having cool Trials by Combat

Yeah, Jon hasn’t historically gotten a lot to do, but he’s been a pretty strong character this season. He’s had some really good conversations with Sam, and that speech he gave before the raid on Craster’s, and his charismatic speaking when he was training the other men of the watch how to disarm wildlings, etc. And he was an all-around badass in this episode. Maybe it’s hard to get over how dull he was in the first season or two, but it can be done!

@The Curse of Marino I get that. He’s definitely fighting out of his weight class compared to the heavy weight, veteran actors…still a strong character, and hope he gets his shine given an opportunity.

@Thornyp Actually I have read the books. I just prefer to separate the novels and show completely. It’s much more fun that way..It also stood me from being a shitty person with subtle spoilers and subliminal sentences like : “Jon Snow is VERY special”…and saying smug things like “You obviously haven’t read the books…”

The Jon Snow character has improved a lot in my opinion. In past few seasons I didn’t really like the character but Kit Harrington seems to be maturing as an actor. I also despise Sam, who does next to nothing. Seriously he’s saved a grand total of two people, several times. His attachment to Gilly is supposed to look noble, but it falls flat when you consider that everyone else in the Night’s Watch is expected to kill dozens, scores, or hundreds of bad guys.

Not to get all Nightswatch on you and quote the oath @Michael Valentine Smith, but the statement at the top of the post only mentioned Storm of Swords/Feast for Crows, not any of the books ever, I’ve only read A Game of Thrones, my “spoilers” were all on the show 4 seasons ago.
Also the important thing is that no spoilers bit, not maintaining a divide between book and non book, MissingLink plays fair with that, and does an good job of calling out people who actually are being dicks. Loopholes are important, you can’t be all #teamsamwell and not be up for some loopholes.

@procrasty , seriously dude, y’all suck. you don’t follow what is a gentlemen’s understanding that if you read the books, this isn’t the thread for you to be commenting on. do what you will, as many others have done, and will do, because they just can’t help themselves. it doesn’t matter what i think, but a whole lot of people seemed to think that two threads would keep the assholes from spoiling shit for everyone else. if they made three, you turds would show up there too. free country. do what you like. just wish there was a way to ignore your posts completely, built in, but there isn’t. you guys just keep being you.

Sorry @MissingLink I’m languishing in another time zone, but yeah you’re a solid fellow. @Michael Valentine Smith, come on he read them years ago and is better at avoiding spoilers than some non readers I come across frankly, if just knowing that he (partly) remembers the books somehow taints every criticism he has of the show even when he gives away nothing then…I dunno, Christ just lighten up a bit.
Mind you I read book one so maybe I’m forever sullied in your eyes because I know who Jayne Poole is.

“I have no shits to give about no book crew” , yeah, that’s awesome about the not shit giving and all, but the whole point of the dual threads is for the exact reason that those who have read the books wouldn’t be able to spoil the experience, and discussion for those who haven’t

Uproxx is going to extra lengths every week this season to provide just that kind of firewall

@MissingLink : I want to preface what I say next with, you seem like a pretty decent dude , and I enjoy your comments here and in the rest of the site, but if you’ve read the books, and now we know you’ve read the books, can’t you see that any comments you make on characters, plot development, episodes, or any other thing pertaining to this series, and the action which has taken place in the written word to date, will be taken one of two ways, either you’re unintentionally (giving the benefit of the doubt here) spoiling through commission or omission, or you’re misdirecting, which is equally infuriating.

I understand the #nobookcrew is the shit, but seriously, when you say “Badass and Fat Sam, first time in the history of words those have been in same sentence….” either you’re misdirecting or spoiling.

@Michael Valentine Smith , yeah, it was almost a decade ago, back when I was burning weed before breakfast, it’s all really fuzzy. So I treat the show as a different animal. It seems new now that I only burn on weekends….and when with friends…and maybe a little before social events…Anywhooo, it’s more like deja vu.

@Michael Valentine Smith That’s the thing, Sam’s encounters with that chick and her kid are a trick to fool you into thinking he’s a badass. He constantly saves the woman and her child, which makes him look sympathetic. In reality, saving her has nothing to do with the larger mission of maintaining the wall and protecting the millions of people in Westeros. So it’s slight of hand. Sam spent most of the battle reloading a crossbow for somebody else and talking. All the other NW dudes were racking up bodies like John Rambo.

SAM IS A FAT FUCKING BADASS, BAD FUCKING FATASS (take your pick). Sam has killed almost as many folks as Arya fucking Stark for all the gods, old and news, sake. c’mon …. talk about exceeding expectations ….. tossed out of the eerie, expected to die anytime a rock falls, hid from the white walkers (everybody else died and was put in a swirly pile) NOT OUR SAM … and that was just the start. SAM is the best bff since Samwise Gamgee, and if you folks don’t get on board with this immutable truth … well then Jed, I just don’t want to know ya.

Really @Michael Valentine Smith , really? Fat Sam is “a fucking badass” really? I think your comments are funny, and you seem cool, but come on guy….Just gonna chalk this up as you forgot to take meds, or hungover or just off your game…..Badass and Fat Sam, first time in the history of words those have been in same sentence….

Sam killed a fucking white walker AND put an arrow through the skull of an enormous cannibal at point blank range, he saved a mother and her child, fallen in love, and been fallen in love with. Sam is a fucking badass.

Someone is defiantly breaking Tyrion out, even GRRM isn’t that daft/psychotic, outside chance: Tywin (he did give that speech before about not being able to kill Tyrion when he was a baby, he wants himself out of the way, but he cares enough to prefer it not be via his death I think.)

I haven’t read the fucking books ok, but what if, after the eventual dragon battle for all the marbles, the unsullied end up taking over the nights watch, i mean, after all, they’ve got no holes to loop. #nobookcrew

ygritte (and john while he was still pretending to be a traitor) were in an expeditionary force, scaled the wall with the intent to cause some havoc south of the wall (maybe drawing the nights watch out), prior to the invasion by Mance and his combined armies. the expeditionary force hooked up with the cannibals and raided the town closest to Castle Black, the nights watch main centered stronghold. afterwards they waited for the sign from the owl that the fires had started and attacked the southern gate while the thousand or so wildlings (plus giants and mamoths) attacked the northern gates.

Don’t feel bad. For about five minutes I thought the impending was all on just one side of the Wall… little did I know that the Wildlings were gonna fuck that bitch from both ends like a pair of Chinese Fingercuffs!!

I thought they could have done a better job with this. Granted, you’re supposed to know that Ygritte et all are raiding the southern half of the wall, but still. I thought that panning shot where they showed the raid on the south and then went over the wall to show the fire north of the wall was useful, but it could have come earlier.
I’m normally against laborious exposition, but some strategic and tactical exposition might have been useful for the episode. They did it quite a bit before Blackwater Bay.

I personally thought the visuals were fantastic. Truly grasped the utter chaos and mayhem of a battle like that. Especially the expertly-executed panoramique a la Renior’s “Le Crime de Monsieur Lange”.

(I’ve included the youtube clip of the inspiration for reference. Watch from 5:30 on)

In reference to what? The Night’s Watch? The peeps in King’s Landing? People who read the books? Is Mole’s Town like the Jersey Shore of Westeros? Are there female Giants who have giant luscious boobies and when they are lactating they blast milk on their enemies like water out of fire hoses?

I’m pulling for more chaps next season, I mean, last year we basically had a dedicated manbutt week, this time around it was just the odd flash followed by a wall of tits. C’mon guys, at least one of your actors is up for it, although the plot has him permanently trapped in hypothermia land, so…

dude, there’s excellence and then there’s a bunch of overlong fucking “meh” that producers got baked and thought was gonna be soooooooo sweet. everyone’s entitled to their opinion, and to express that opinion, and in my opinion this episode, and this season has been meh to the nth.

protip : the less peter dinklage and dragons you have in your season the worse it will be

Great thing about this show is character you have hated this whole time can change once you get an idea of their prospective. They did it with Jaime and Sandor. It further lends itself to the stance that there aren’t entirely evil or entirely good characters.

Alliser’s speech was nice and all but I really liked his scene with Jon Snow. “Hey, remember how we hate each other? I’m not sorry but let’s make it though this thing so we can hate each other for a few more years.”

Totally! I’ve been hoping for something like that almost all season long, some kind of rapprochement between those two. I was hoping they’d go further and come around to really like and/or respect one another, actually, but this’ll do.

It’s like the Book Nerd (BoNer) thread is just so FULL of boring, uninsightful, ignorant, ugly, pathetic, lame, smelly, namby-pamby, gutless, vile, pathetic (did I already say that?), lousy, half witted, no good, pea brained, lily livered, uninspired, and just generally the most bitter bunch of self masturbatory followers that ever existed that they have to flow over into this comment thread aka THE FUN ONE.

BoNers – take your minor spoilers and your false sense of superiority back to Loserville and let us speculate in peace!