I think the problem is with St. Peters Square is that it is inherently an awkward layout. It is really two squares, one smaller than the other, ajoined but with no focal point. To make matters worse there is a major road running alongside one length and soon to be 3-4 tramlines cutting it right down the middle. This means that it doesn't work as a square. A square is meant to be a place where there is room for people to gather for events or markets, or to be sat around in cafes. This can do none of those things (unless you want to be flattened by a tram).
To that extent, it might as well be a gardens rather than a square, albeit not like the hashup that is Piccadily Gardens! It needs to be soft planting, a few trees, but most importantly, plenty wide paths to allow the high volumes of pedestrian flow. You can also get some height variation then so that the platforms are part of the garden level rather than "poking up" above a square.
Otherwise, you end up with a wide, clinical space that no-one can use.

Thinking about it, Manchester is good for great, modern buildings but when it comes to public realm areas, the council haven't got a clue.

Anyone been to the Peace Gardens in Sheffield? Fantastic landscaping facing the town hall.

Instead we get a large isolated square with a strange water feature, some of Tadao Ando's concrete structures (which is weathering very badly) and a big bus stand next to it.

And I don't know why the council refer to St Peter's Square as a square in a public realm sense. It won't be once the new building is built as there will be no sun. Who will want to eat their lunch or contemplate in the chilly autumn/winter months in the shade?

The Peace Gardens is one of my favourite city centre spots in the UK. It's so well integrated with some other fantastic public areas too, Sheffield have done a great job at making a lot more of their city than a lot of cities that on the surface have a better starting point.

Well yep, but that was a long time ago and the result of it being one of these beloved Tory enterprise zones.

Speaking of 'a long time ago', I remember visiting it a short while after the tram line opened to it. It had a 'market area' that was totally synthetic. There was an antiques/curios stall without any genuine antiques or curios, seemingly catering to the kind of people who buy framed prints of dogs playing snooker. Like it or hate it, the Trafford Centre is a completely different animal when compared to what Meadowhall then was. I haven't been back since. Has it changed?

I think they did away with the market a bit like they did at the Trafford Centre when they built John Lewis. I hate Meadowhall so have hardly ever been but last time I was there it looked like it had been done out and now looks like a fairly generic mall but still better than the likes of the Metro Centre that came around the same time, but obviously not quite as dressed as the Trafford Centre. Infact Meadowhall is probably a pretty good representation of what the Trafford Centre would look like if Peel hadn't decided to go all mock Venetian.

Don't like the roof / top few floors of this design. Why is it like this? Looks like the design was forced in the wrong direction. Simple and rather elegant otherwise, just not quite right. Is it too simple?

I think they did away with the market a bit like they did at the Trafford Centre when they built John Lewis. I hate Meadowhall so have hardly ever been but last time I was there it looked like it had been done out and now looks like a fairly generic mall but still better than the likes of the Metro Centre that came around the same time, but obviously not quite as dressed as the Trafford Centre. Infact Meadowhall is probably a pretty good representation of what the Trafford Centre would look like if Peel hadn't decided to go all mock Venetian.

Although I think the Trafford Centre is gaudy, it is always clean and spacious. The same cannot be said of Metrocentre or Meadowhall which are starting to look really dated now.

Interesting to hear a few weeks back that Meadowhall is on the market for £1.4 billion! Considering the Trafford Centre was sold for a transaction of value of £1.6 billion, then £1.4 billion is a very ambitious price tag for Meadowhall. Trafford Centre is dominant in so many more ways - size, bigger catchment area, richer demographic, visitor figures, expansion potential. The only thing Meadowhall has over TC is a train station, yet to think Meadowhall is only just higher valued is crazy. Saying that, I recall John Whittaker saying they could have sold TC for just under £2 billion, but he preferred a seat on the CSC board, so possibly that £1.6B deal might not be truly reflective.

Although I think the Trafford Centre is gaudy, it is always clean and spacious. The same cannot be said of Metrocentre or Meadowhall which are starting to look really dated now. Interesting to hear a few weeks back that Meadowhall is on the market for £1.4 billion! Considering the Trafford Centre was sold for a transaction of value of £1.6 billion, then £1.4 billion is a very ambitious price tag for Meadowhall. Trafford Centre is dominant in so many more ways - size, bigger catchment area, richer demographic, visitor figures, expansion potential. The only thing Meadowhall has over TC is a train station, yet to think Meadowhall is only just higher valued is crazy. Saying that, I recall John Whittaker saying they could have sold TC for just under £2 billion, but he preferred a seat on the CSC board, so possibly that £1.6B deal might not be truly reflective.

As I understand it, Peel did a lot of research into successful Shopping Malls in the States, and came to two conclusions. Firstly, they would go after a more upmarket customer, with an emphasis on reputable outlets and designer labels. Secondly, the Mall needed to be something of a tourist attraction in itself, a 'must-visit' destination. Hence the decor, the themed areas, and the lavish provision of leisure facilities (the leisure and food area being capable of physical isolation from the rest of the complex, remaining open way past midnight). To this has been added an Event Centre.

Train Guard

Last edited by Train Guard; March 27th, 2012 at 11:17 AM.
Reason: Spacing

As I understand it, Peel did a lot of research into successful Shopping Malls in the States, and came to two conclusions. Firstly, they would go after a more upmarket customer, with an emphasis on reputable outlets and designer labels. Secondly, the Mall needed to be something of a tourist attraction in itself, a 'must-visit' destination. Hence the decor, the themed areas, and the lavish provision of leisure facilities (the leisure and food area being capable of physical isolation from the rest of the complex, remaining open way past midnight). To this has been added an Event Centre.

In fact, the only thing the Trafford Centre is missing is another 6 lanes on the M60.

Really like this project. I used to come up to Manchester regularly between 2004 and 2008 and this building with the Dutch Pancake House really needed to be demolished. Some of the old buildings around there, such as the Central Library, are fantastic, and this will really brighten up St Peter's Square.

Pretty impressive hole in the ground today, really lets the light in to the Cenotaph, like a whole different square. Almost a pity theres going to be a new building there.

Would have been better if the new build was on the Odeon site considering its height. Hopefully a few others who are backing this building will start to think it is a mistake now they see that St Peters is a new square with the vast light from the south.

Ah well, MCC town planners **** it up again when it comes to public realm. If their mentality or idea of public realm is to have a busy road nearby, a high building which will block out the sunlight and trams which will run around like an uncontrollable, naughty child then Manchester will NEVER get a pleasant public realm area.

I only hope MCC do not waste our money on renovating St Peters as a 'public realm' space because it is a doomed project.