HOMEBREW Digest #3570 Fri 02 March 2001

FORUM ON BEER, HOMEBREWING, AND RELATED ISSUES
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Contents:Re: King Kooker Burner Assemblies (Brunnenbraeu)Direct-Fired RIMS; Temperature Limit (RBoland)Re:Bock Fest in Cincy (Mike & Debbie Meade)Sorghum Stout (Ant Hayes)Harvesting from a CCV (Ant Hayes)Irish Moss Addendum ("Abby, Ellen and Alan")Hopping with CF vs immersion chiller ("Fred L. Johnson")Re: Direct-Fired RIMS; Temperature Limit (The Man From Plaid)RE Food Grade CO2 ("Steven Parfitt")RE: Chillers (RobertJ)yeast idea/s (Darrell.Leavitt)RE : Laaglander Light DME and Final SpGr ("Steven Parfitt")cleaning chillers ("Info")HBD Wear ("Dennis Lewis")Eric's Bad Brew Day ("Jim Bermingham")I thought there were no pictures! ("Eric Fouch")Re: Conical fermenters (Jeff Renner)Re: Irish Moss Question (Jeff Renner)Bleach in copper, other corrosives. ("Michael G. Zentner")CF chillers redux ("Strom C. Thacker")CC's and obsessed brewing (Frank Tutzauer)RE: Strike Temp ("Doug Hurst")Stone Beer Stones (Karl Smith)Freedom from burner height ("Peed, John")Bockfest Zinzinnati (David Harsh)plastic carboys ("S. SNYDER")re: Oxygenating Wort and Pitching Yeast ("S. SNYDER")HBD on Avantgo (Kelly E Jones)St. Louis points of interest (Earl Atwood)sylmarin (Scott Murman)What is Kilncoffee Malt? (Kevin Peters)Re: Irish Moss Question ("Abby, Ellen and Alan")Mash temps (Craig MacFarlane)Yeast culturing (Peter Matra)Brew Fest in Louisville, KY ("brewski")ein? stein beer (Bob Devine)Woe is me . . . I polyclared my Hoegaarden clone! ("Richard Matheny")
*
* Beer is our obsession and we're late for therapy!
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* Drunk Monk Challenge Entry Deadline is 3/17/01!
* http://www.sgu.net/ukg/dmc/ for more information
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* Maltose Falcons Mayfaire Entry Deadline is 3/20/01!
* http://www.maltosefalcons.com/ for more information
*
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----------------------------------------------------------------------
Date: Thu, 1 Mar 2001 00:46:32 EST
From: Brunnenbraeu at aol.com
Subject: Re: King Kooker Burner Assemblies
In einer eMail vom 28.02.01 06:25:42 (MEZ) Mitteleuropaeische Zeit schreibt
Tony Barnsley <tony.barnsley at blackpool.gov.uk>:
> Schwarzbad Lager Brauerei, Blackpool, Lancs, UK
>
> ( Ok Dr Pivo I could call it the Schwarzteiche, Black pond as opposed to
> Black bath, but I like the original :> )
And why don't you call it 'Schwarzbart', which is pronounced in the same way
as 'Schwarzbad' in German language? It would give your brewery some kind of
outlaw image, as 'Schwarzbart' is 'black beard' - and always reminds me of
the pirate stories, I read in my youth.
;-)
Cheers / Zum Wohl / Na zdrowie,
Volker
Volker R. Quante
Brunnenbraeu Homebrewery
Brewing and working in Warsaw / Poland, but definitely a German Homebrewer
Return to table of contents
Date: Thu, 1 Mar 2001 00:59:04 EST
From: RBoland at aol.com
Subject: Direct-Fired RIMS; Temperature Limit
I have been providing just enough heat to keep the recirculating liquor at
about 170 F, believing that in doing so I avoid tannin extraction and enzyme
denaturing. As a result, mash heat-up times are long. Are my concerns
justified, or can I put the heat to it without worry?
Bob Boland
Wicket City
Return to table of contents
Date: Thu, 01 Mar 2001 01:30:58 -0500
From: Mike & Debbie Meade <meade at donet.com>
Subject: Re:Bock Fest in Cincy
Eric Ahrendt wrote to ask for information on this weekend's
Bock Fest in Cincinnati. Here you go:
http://hbd.org/bloat/bockfest.htmlhttp://www.barrelhouse.com/bockfest2001.html
Hope to see you there!
Mike Meade
Big Ethel Brewing
New Carlisle, OH
Return to table of contents
Date: Thu, 1 Mar 2001 12:53:30 +0200
From: Ant Hayes <Ant.Hayes at FifthQuadrant.co.za>
Subject: Sorghum Stout
Eric Murray asked,
"Anyone ever used sorghum in a stout? I just brewed a stout this weekend and
pitched in 1.5 lbs of sorghum at the last 10 minutes of boil."
I have made a 60% sorghum malt stout, which I think is tasty. Sorghum adds a
unique flavour to beer, that is somewhat spicy/ smoky.
However, I gather you used sorghum syrup rather than malted or otherwise
processed grains. Depending upon how this was made (e.g. from sorghum shoots
rather than grains), you may not have got much sorghum flavour at all.
Ant Hayes
Gauteng; South Africa
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Date: Thu, 1 Mar 2001 13:10:38 +0200
From: Ant Hayes <Ant.Hayes at FifthQuadrant.co.za>
Subject: Harvesting from a CCV
Steven Claussen and Stephen Alexander have been arguing the merits of CCV's,
and yeast harvesting in particular.
I ferment in a 60 litre stainless CCV - it is a pleasure.
An advantage is being able to draw off trub after day 1, meaning that I can
use a counterflow chiller and not have to worry about using a settling tank.
I simply rinse the outlet with tap water after pulling trub- infection has
not got past the ball valve yet.
At quarter gravity I draw off the bulk of the yeast, and store it ready for
the next ferment. I don't stress about infection because I acid wash the
yeast prior to repitching.
Once fermentation is finished, I pump to a 50 litre keg, again using tap
water to rinse all fittings.
Flaming and rinsing with iodopher, etc sounds impressive, but a bit over the
top to me. No disrespect intended.
I have found that pitching a large slurry of freshly acid washed yeast is an
easy effective way to avoid infection - let the yeast work for you.
Ant Hayes
Gauteng; South Africa
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Date: Thu, 01 Mar 2001 07:22:03 -0400
From: "Abby, Ellen and Alan" <elal at pei.sympatico.ca>
Subject: Irish Moss Addendum
I forgot to mention the pound of honey in the ale. The irish moss was
the new factor.
By the way, if anyone is interested in natural irish moss, PEI is one of
the two large scale sources of it - the other being Denmark. "Up West"
in Prince County they apparently make a pie of it - like lemon pie
filling.
Alan in PEI
Return to table of contents
Date: Thu, 01 Mar 2001 07:19:36 -0500
From: "Fred L. Johnson" <FLJohnson at worldnet.att.net>
Subject: Hopping with CF vs immersion chiller
There has been considerable discussion around counter-flow versus immersion
chillers, but I've not heard anyone address the issue of how to equivalently
add finishing hops to brews that are chilled by these two systems. A recipe
may be designed in an immersion chilller system such that finishing hops are
added to the wort at a specific time before or at the same moment that the
heat is turned off and the chiller is turned on. The hot wort does it's
thing to extract oils, volatiles, etc. from these hops; and, to the extent
that these "reactions" take place only at "elevated" temperatures, the
reactions are stopped within a relatively short time using an immersion
chiller. It would seem to be much more difficult, perhaps impossible, to
provide equivalent hop exposure to the hot wort if one adds finishing hops
to the kettle unless one would have some type of continuous "infusion" of
hops to the kettle during the cooling period. However, if one uses a
hopback, one could adjust the flow rate to provide "equivalent" exposure of
the hops to the hot effluent wort. I would guess that in order to convert a
recipe from a brew that uses an immersion chiller to a brew using a
counter-flow chiller, especially if one does not use a hopback, the entire
late hopping additions would have to be changed. Flavor and aroma additions
and perhaps even bittering additions would be expected to require changes.
Have any of the engineers out there done the math on these processes to
provide formulas? If not, now is your time to shine! (I can imagine some
simultaneous equations coming in here.)
(Coming from one who has not yet made the move to a counter-flow chiller but
considering purchase or construction of a whole new brewing system.)
- --
Fred L. Johnson
Apex, North Carolina
USA
Return to table of contents
Date: Thu, 1 Mar 2001 07:51:20 -0500 (EST)
From: The Man From Plaid <pbabcock at hbd.org>
Subject: Re: Direct-Fired RIMS; Temperature Limit
Greetings, Beerlings! Take me to your lager...
Brother Bob Boland writes:
> I have been providing just enough heat to keep the recirculating liquor at
> about 170 F, believing that in doing so I avoid tannin extraction and enzyme
> denaturing. As a result, mash heat-up times are long. Are my concerns
> justified, or can I put the heat to it without worry?
>
I, too, employ the direct-fired RIMS concept in my brewery. Your concerns
depend a lot on your type of false bottom. If you use one which provides
foundation water below your screens, you need only worry about scorching
the wort in your temperature steps. The majority of your enzymes are in
the grain bed above, so significant denaturing of the enzymes should not
be a problem - remember: infusion mashing is done by introducing quanities
of boiling water to the top of the grain bed! This will cause the area
near the point of infusion to go to temperatures well beyond 170'F and is
performed without incident in most cases.. Also, as I understand it,
tannin extraction is a pH-related process. There is no reason that the pH
of the foundation water should change significantly while being heated -
even if there were some concern there, there should be insignificant grain
beneath your screens to be of concern. I typically fire my foundation to
around five to ten degrees F above my target, then use the kettle valves
to moderate the infusion onto the grainbed.Initially, though, I'll fire it
quite a bit higher to get the necessary rate of increase, tapering down
to the cited five to ten degrees above rest temperature. I then hold the
foundation at this slightly elecated temperature and modulate it's release
onto the bed in order to maintain my temperature throughout the rest.
If you are using a manifold, you need to exercise more care as the grain
is in contact with the bottom of your kettle. Frankly, I wouldn't use a
manifold system in a direct fired mash tun for this reason, and would
select screens which hold the grain off of any fired surface.
My $0.02!
PS: And, at times, My care slips and I scorch the foundation :-(
Be careful out there! The beer you save may be your own.
- --
-
See ya!
Pat Babcock in SE Michigan pbabcock at hbd.org
Home Brew Digest Janitor janitor@hbd.org
HBD Web Site http://hbd.org
The Home Brew Page http://hbd.org/pbabcock
"The monster's back, isn't it?" - Kim Babcock after I emerged
from my yeast lab Saturday
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Date: Thu, 01 Mar 2001 07:58:43 -0500
From: "Steven Parfitt" <the_gimp98 at hotmail.com>
Subject: RE Food Grade CO2
I asked my suppier about this and his reply was that food grade CO2 has had
the tank evacuated, purged with CO2, evacuated, and filled. Non-food grade
CO2 does not get evacuated and purged.
He further stated that all his CO2 is supplied from a company that douple
evacuate/purges all tanks so I'm getting food grade CO2.
Now, I guess I need to hook up a compressor to evacuate my 5LB tank before
filling it from the 50LB tank to maintain food grade status.
Steven - Ironhead Brewery
Return to table of contents
Date: Thu, 01 Mar 2001 08:19:39 -0500
From: RobertJ <pbsys at pbsbeer.com>
Subject: RE: Chillers
From: "Houseman, David L" <David.Houseman at unisys.com>
Subject:
The dualing chiller thread is interesting in that there seems to be a real
cost premium for the copper-outside-copper designs. As Eric points out
he's very pleased with his "fearless" and says it works as well as the all
copper models. I have one I made with the 3/8" copper tubing inside a 3/4"
garden hose. I don't have an all copper chiller to compare against but mine
seems to cool at the rates claimed by the all copper models. These all
copper models look great, but in reality do they work better?
_____
With a 3/8" inner tube you will not get a flow of 8.5 gal of wort per min.
That would take 1/2". With a long enough 1/2" tube you probably would get
the wort down to within 1 deg of cooling water temp (you may also lose some
flow rate due to increased length). The one area, with either a 3/8 or 1/2
tube where you will not come close is the amount of cooling waster required
(less than 30 gals to cool 5 gals with a MAXI. Tests of several counterflow
chill were done in zymurgy several years ago showing the superchiller, far
superior. We beat it.
In addition a MAXI is easier to clean and sanitize than a counterflow using
a hose. It can be boiled in wort, heated in an oven or dropped in a 5 gal
bucket of cleanser/sanitizer
Bob
Precision Brewing Systems URL http://pbsbeer.com Manufacturer of 3 Vessel
Brew Systems, HERMS(tm), SS Brew Kettles, SS hopback and the MAXIchiller
Return to table of contents
Date: Thu, 1 Mar 2001 08:27:33 -0500
From: Darrell.Leavitt at esc.edu
Subject: yeast idea/s
I have been brewing now for just shy of 4 years,... my "anniversary" is
this March 15th, which I will take off...so as to brew an Aniversary Ale.
For the last 3 years I have brewed entirely all grain...using liquid
yeast...stepping up sometimes, and as of the last year or so, using the
yeast 3 times...usually to my satisfaction.
I have come to believe that a whole lot more attention has to be paid to
yeast. I know, for example, that one can mannage the flavors in several
Trappist/ Abbey style yeasts by careful attention to the temperatures in
primary and secondary. I also know that there are some yeasts that, if
fermented too high, will give of what most of us would regard (in
sufficient amount) as nasty.
I know that it would certainly benefit me if we could discuss some of the
peculiarities of yeasts....that is, if we could talk about the Wyeast and
WhiteLabs strains that have particular characteristics/ qualities that a
brewer should pay attention to so as to optimize taste/ quality. I know
there are a lot of brewers on this forum who have pieces of this
specialized knowledge,,,...and I am going to suggest that they think of
sharing that with the rest of us...
Perhaps we could start with a style...like Abbey/ Trappist?
WhiteLabs Trappist (500) suggests NOT to let the temp go over 65F. My
wife used to hate the flavors from my trappist ales...until I paid close
attention to this...I kept the temp below 65F and she now likes them a lot!
I believe that the Hefe yeasts (WhiteLabs 300, 320; Wyeast numbers?) ,
being from a similar strain ( or so I have heard) behave similarly...ie
more bananna/clove flavors if fermented at higher temps...less if at low...
Are these observations in line with others who have used these yeasts?
And, is there any interest in starting a conversation on the HBD going
through the major yeasts...their qualities...unique behaviors,so that we
all can benefit from the wealth of knowledge and experience that I have
seen here..?
...Darrell
Return to table of contents
Date: Thu, 01 Mar 2001 08:37:56 -0500
From: "Steven Parfitt" <the_gimp98 at hotmail.com>
Subject: RE : Laaglander Light DME and Final SpGr
I posted previously asking about Diastatic enzyme content of Laaglander and
wanting to know if it could be mashed to lower the final gravity while using
it. After much reading, I found referenced to Edme DMS, not DME. Edme DMS is
listed as Diastatic Malt Syrup. It is referenced in both The Joy of
Homebrewing, and Designing Great Beer.
Since there was no definitive answer from the list as to whether or not
Laaglander DME was Diastatically active, I proceeded to perform a mash
experiment on it.
(1) I added 1/4 Cup of Laaglander Light DME to two cups of water and mashed
at 154F(150-160) for an hour. I tested for starch every 15 minutes with
iodine. After an hour the test was still positive for Starch.
(2) Same as (1), but add 2oz crystal Malt (the only malt on hand at the
time). Same results as (1).
(3) Last night after receiving a shipment including a couple of pounds of 2
row malt pale malt I performed the experiment again. Same as (1), but add
2oz crushed 2 row pale malt. After the second reading, NO STARCH DETECTED!
My conclusion is that Laaglander Light DME can be further Mashed to reduce
the level of unfermentable starches. I then made a second batch as in (1)
and tested it for starch, as expected it was positive. I added the batch
with pale malt to this batch and began testing every 10 minutes. After 20
minutes it also showed negative for starch.
My final experiment will be to duplicate the IPA I made previously, with the
exception of adding a half pound of 2 row Pale malt to the Laaglander Light
DME in 2 gallons of water, and mashing it before proceeding. Then make the
batch the same as previously. If the final gravity is significantly lower
than the previous batch, then my conclusion will be that indeed Laaglander
light DME can be mashed to reduce residual starches.
Whether or not this is desirable is open to discussion.
Steven - Ironhead Brewery (pico)
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Date: Thu, 1 Mar 2001 10:48:26 -0300
From: "Info" <info at alean.com.ar>
Subject: cleaning chillers
Hi folks!
On the subject I'll not repeat again the way to sanitize a chiller (inmersion
or CCF), but I'll add my 2 cts.
How to clean inside the tube? I send some one inside the tube to do the job.
Are you crazy man? What are you talking about?
Every 4 or 5 batchs I insert a scrapper sponge in the copper tube (not very
tight!!) and move it from one end to the other with CO2 pressure.
It works fine. The only concern is if your chiller is not correctly bended. I
repeat the job 2 or 3 times.
I beg your pardon if my english has mistakes.
>From Buenos Aires, Argentina (shortly I'll send you my coordinates)
Mauricio Wagner
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Date: Thu, 1 Mar 2001 08:18:38 -0500
From: "Dennis Lewis" <dblewis at lewisdevelopment.com>
Subject: HBD Wear
> From: Spencer W Thomas <spencer at engin.umich.edu>
> Subject: RAF & HBD
>
> I'll be at the Real Ale Fest Thu - Sat (in Chicago at Goose Island,
> Wrigleyville). I know this is really short notice, but is there any
> way we can recognize each other? I'll try to remember to wear my Ann
> Arbor Brewers Guild name tag with "HBD" on it.
I've been reading HBD on and off for around 9 years and don't think
I've seen this suggestion. Has anyone tried to come up with a logo,
etc for the HBD and have t-shirt, hats, pins, mugs, etc. printed with
them? Since we were looking for sponsors for the digest, this might
be an alternate way of raising a few bucks and give us all a way to
spot the fellow HBD nut at beer events.
I realize the logistics involved with this and am loathe to volunteer
more work onto anyone. If this would create too much work for someone
not already in a retail setting, perhaps the good fellows at Northern
Brewer http://www.northernbrewer.com would outlet the stuff for us.
(And who isn't going to order a least a few ounces of hops too.)
Dennis Lewis
Who can't go to the RAF and is trying not to think about it...
*************
Janitor's note:
The idea is not without merit.
First, though, the HBD _HAS_ a logo - the image of the three block letters
in the upper corner of the HBD web page and it's negative constitute the
HBD's logo - a nice, simple thing created in the days of yore when
Scott Abene served as our webmaster.
The logistics of such a project are not insurmountable, but the "support"
issues with maintaining such a venture Are pretty daunting: initial outlay
of funds required to generate a large enough order to make the subsequent
sale of any wearables feasible within an acceptable price range, handling
returns, packaging, shipping...
We may be able to find individuals amongst our readership capable of
producing the items as necessary based on the value of future sales in
exchange for an exclusive contract on production of said item(s). If this
is the case, we can mitigatre the cash outlay problem and may be able to
mitigate the shipping problem, assuming those individuals are already
equipped to ship and are willing to ship direct.
Here's how we'll start: First, we'll set up a web page to survey the
readership for interest, affordable ranges and then the types of items
desired. If it appears that there is enough interest, we'll take the next
step and get the ball rolling. If there are any out there engaged in the
production of silk-screened hats and shirts as well as the etching of
glassware who would be willing to "cut a deal" to the HBD for your
services, please contact me directly. I invision a design having the HBD
logo on the front, and our motto on the back - similar to how the
original MCAB tees were laid out.
I like the idea.
-p
Return to table of contents
Date: Thu, 1 Mar 2001 08:56:49 -0600
From: "Jim Bermingham" <bermingham at antennaproducts.com>
Subject: Eric's Bad Brew Day
Eric,
It just don't get no better than this, but, ain't it fun.
Jim Bermingham
Millsap, TX
Return to table of contents
Date: Thu, 01 Mar 2001 09:59:34 -0500
From: "Eric Fouch" <airrick147 at hotmail.com>
Subject: I thought there were no pictures!
"I have done everything in my power to get somebody interested in doing a
side by side comparison of the all copper and copper-vinyl counterflow
chillers. Nobody wants to take it on. "
I'll do it!! Ken- I already have The Fearless. Just send me a Chillzilla,
and I'll do a side-by-each. Two, in fact- a ten gallon batch of White, then
a ten gallon batch of barleywine, and we can compare the cooling affects!
"Eric is not a pretty man. The pictures they sent me of a naked Eric riding
his Hodaka Wombat testify to that!!"
Well, according to http://www.amihotornot.com, I am a 5.3. But I haven't
ridden naked on a Wombat for years. Not since I got my Husqvarna.
Nothing like a buff ride on a Husky!
Eric Fouch
Bent Dick YoctoBrewery
Kentwood, MI
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Date: Thu, 1 Mar 2001 09:59:38 -0500
From: Jeff Renner <nerenner at umich.edu>
Subject: Re: Conical fermenters
"Joe Sheets" <jsheets at nc.rr.com> wrote:
>I recently purchased 2 plastic conical fermentors. They have lids but they
>are not able to be "sealed". The lid does have a flange and fits snugly so
>it will not fall off but I'm a little concerned about using a semi-open
>fermentor. Does anybody have any experience w/these?
No experience with conical fermenters, but lots of experience with
unsealed fermenters. No problem.
I use either my 10 gallon aluminum stock pot with tap as a fermenter
or a cut off old barrel shaped half barrel keg. I sometimes use the
stock pot lid, other times a wide sheet of plastic wrap so I can
watch. I usually skim off the brown crud the first few days, then if
I'm using a top cropping ale yeast, which I prefer, I harvest the
yeast on the third or forth day.
There's nothing magical or even necessary about a sealed fermenter,
as long as you don't have kids or pets (or vermin) that want to get
in. The bubbling air lock is a handy indicator of fermentation
speed, but with a little experience, you don't even need that. I
often rack to a secondary carboy and put a bubbler on that, not by no
means always.
Jeff
- --
Jeff Renner in Ann Arbor, Michigan USA, c/o nerenner at umich.edu
"One never knows, do one?" Fats Waller, American Musician, 1904-1943
Return to table of contents
Date: Thu, 1 Mar 2001 09:58:43 -0500
From: Jeff Renner <nerenner at umich.edu>
Subject: Re: Irish Moss Question
Alan McLeod <elal at pei.sympatico.ca> writes:
>So I think I am going along fine adding Irish moss to a secondary for
>the first time, learning and doing...This is the second time I check the
>books after adding...I boil up about 3/4 oz of irish moss make about 3
>cups of clear strained sludge and dump it in the secondary...That must
>be way too much I think...dump 'er out and put about one cup back
>in...Boom in goes the English Pale Ale and I wait.
Whoa, Alan!!! You're using the Irish moss wrong! It's what's called
a copper (or kettle) fining - you use it in the boil - typically the
last 10 minutes. And not that much. It leaves no flavor that way.
It coagulates excess protein and makes for a better hot break. I'm
not surprised you are getting a seaweed flavor if you use it in the
secondary.
What you need is gelatin or isinglass for fining in the secondary.
When I need to fine a beer, I use a packet of unflavored gelatin for
5 gallons or a 1/4 barrel and it works just fine. Dissolve it in a
cup of water or beer, microwave it until it's clear, then stir in
into the secondary as you rack from the primary. It drops out the
suspended yeast and other spooge (technical term). It's fun to watch
in a carboy - it clarifies from the top down in a matter of hours.
Shine a flashlight through from the back.
Sounds like you've got a good beer to go with lobster.
Hope this helps.
- --
Jeff Renner in Ann Arbor, Michigan USA, c/o nerenner at umich.edu
"One never knows, do one?" Fats Waller, American Musician, 1904-1943
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Date: Thu, 01 Mar 2001 11:13:18 -0500
From: "Michael G. Zentner" <zentner at laf.cioe.com>
Subject: Bleach in copper, other corrosives.
> "R.M. Opalko" writes
> I assume that it is okay to leave bleach
> water or iodophor water in the chiller for long periods of time, i.e. weeks?
>
I left copper in bleach for many weeks prior to building one
just to test it. I didn't notice any degradation of the
copper.
> Any thoughts on what shouldn't come into contact with copper tubing?
>
Extended contact with acids and your household natural gas
feed are not good :-) (check your furnace - if someone
piped in gas in copper that is not lined with another metal,
you could be headed for a serious explosion 25 years down
the road).
Mike Zentner
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Date: Thu, 1 Mar 2001 11:34:24 -0500
From: "Strom C. Thacker" <sthacker at bu.edu>
Subject: CF chillers redux
I've been following the debates on counterflow chillers' efficiency,
cleaning, etc. Two points occur to me:
1. I once (and only once) left my CFC filled with iodophor between
brewing sessions. This may work for others, but in my case the
inside of my chiller got mold in it and infected a subsequent batch,
even after flushing with boiling water before and after chilling
(with both batches).
2. The most important feature of the Heart's chiller (NAJSCYYY) and,
perhaps (though I don't know for sure) the PBS and St. Pat's
chillers, is the convoluted outside surface of the inner tubing that
makes cooling much more efficient and allows a much shorter length.
I love my Heart's chiller, but not necessarily b/c it has a steel
outer tube. I like its efficiency and compactness.
Strom
Newton, MA
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Date: Thu, 1 Mar 2001 11:51:12 -0500 (EST)
From: Frank Tutzauer <comfrank at acsu.buffalo.edu>
Subject: CC's and obsessed brewing
I've got no business jumping into this because I've never even *seen*
a homebrew sized CC fermenter and I have no intention of ever buying one,
or, ahem, "acquiring" one. However, I think the below argument by
Stephen A. is a straw man:
>Assuming CCs still run $400 - would you really tie up your only
>fermenter for many weeks w/ 3.5 gallons of barleywine ?
No, of course not. You put the 3.5 gallon barleywine in a carboy and
save the CC for other brews. And:
>Have you never had three brews bubbling at once?
To which Steve C replies:
>I find that I am able to brew the legal limit of homebrew with a
>single 12.2 gallon fermentor and very little effort. I do, however,
>look back with fondness/horror on the days when I was obsessed enough
>to have three beers brewing contemporaneously.
Hey, speak for yourself Steve--some of us *are* obsessed enough to
have three beers fermenting at once. But just because Steve C changed
his behavior doesn't mean Stephen A's argument is valid. If you've
got a CC fermenter, that doesn't mean you're not allowed to ferment in
anything else.
For years I fermented in carboys, but decided for various reasons that
I liked plastic better, so I "upgraded" to a plastic bucket fermenter.
I have two in fact. What happens when both of them are full and I
want that third brew? I go back to the carboy. Big deal. In fact if
you *add* a CC to your gear, you can ferment *more* brews at once than
if you didn't have it at all.
That said, I agree with Stephen A on the general premise. In my view,
and for my pocketbook, a CC is too pricey for any advantage I foresee.
But if it were a gift.....
I'll leave now.
- --frank
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Date: Thu, 1 Mar 2001 10:55:46 -0600
From: "Doug Hurst" <DougH at theshowdept.com>
Subject: RE: Strike Temp
Eric Lande is having problems hitting his target infusion mash
temperature. I have done six all grain batches and have only now
figured out how to tweak the numbers to get close to my target
temperature in my single step infusion mashes. My first few mashes came
out either too high or too low and I found myself furiously adding ice
or boiling water to compensate. The beer turned out fine though.
I usually use my ProMash software for the strike water calculations.
ProMash includes a variable for "thermal mass of mash tun". I'm not
quite sure what that means other than a way to account for the heat
transfered into the mash tun itself. After trial and error I decided
that my plastic bucket mash tun's thermal mass was around 3.5.
John Palmer's "How to Brew" has a very good presentation of strike water
temperature calculations. I have found these calculations to be very
accurate. They match very closely the numbers produced by ProMash. I
don't know if they both use the same method of calculation or not.
Palmer's equation does not include the "thermal mass" variable. I found
I needed to increase the temperature a couple of degrees from his
equations for my system.
The following is a direct quote. Follow the link for a more complete
description.
http://howtobrew.com/section3/chapter16-3.html
Initial Infusion Equation:
Strike Water Temperature Tw = (.2/r)(T2 - T1) + T2
Mash Infusion Equation:
Wa = (T2 - T1)(.2G + Wm)/(Tw - T2)
where:
r = The ratio of water to grain in quarts per pound.
Wa = The amount of boiling water added (in quarts).
Wm = The total amount of water in the mash (in quarts).
T1 = The initial temperature (F) of the mash.
T2 = The target temperature (F) of the mash.
Tw = The actual temperature (F) of the infusion water.
G = The amount of grain in the mash (in pounds).
Hope this helps,
Doug Hurst
Chicago, IL
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Date: Thu, 1 Mar 2001 12:33:06 -0500
From: Karl Smith <krs at phoenixdsl.com>
Subject: Stone Beer Stones
>Need a source of Graywacke for making some stone beer. Any help will be
>greatly appreciated? Anyone in the Northwest or Pacific coast brewing stone
>beer?
>Steve
Hi Steve - I'm on the opposite coast but I have some info I gleened
from and article on Rauchenfels I came across 15 years ago. My notes
are:
Grau-wacke from Keutschachtal
porphyry - (igneous) feldspar crystals imbedded in compact dark red
or purple ground mass (fine grained)
feldspar - aluminum silicates w/ K+, Na+, Ca+, Ba+
brewery heats rock to 1200c and then in it goes at end of boil
rock should bloom and not crack
takes 4 hours to heat 400kg/52HL using beech wood
my math figures (if it's a linear relation) 3.2# stone for 5 gal
10 years ago we did this using 3 or 4# of wisconsin red granite in
about golf ball size chunks. We heated them over a hardwood charcoal
fire that probably was 800F (I think we were using a vacuum cleaner
to blow the coals real hot). They were chucked into a 5 or 6 gal
batch in a 15 gal kettle at end of boil. It nearly volcanoed out the
top. The stones were definitely coated with caramal and went in to
the fermenter. I remember the beer as being delicious with
appropriate soft smokeyness.
Hope this helps
Karl
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Date: Thu, 1 Mar 2001 13:09:59 -0500
From: "Peed, John" <jpeed at elotouch.com>
Subject: Freedom from burner height
Eric Murray says he likes his slightly underpowered propane burner because
it's height makes for easy racking. I use a rack setup that lets me rack
directly from a 12" burner stand. Not only does it free you to choose
pretty much whatever burner height you want, but it also lowers the overall
height of the brewing setup (especially if you use a pump for the sparge
water).
The secret is to use a cap on the carboy that has molded openings for two
hoses. An outfit called Fermencap used to make these for inverted
fermenting, but I don't think they're around any more. One of those orange
soft plastic caps would work fine though. The inlet hose coupler goes just
into the top of the cap, and a vent hose goes all the way to the bottom of
the carboy. The vent tube should be stiff (copper or stiff plastic) so it
can be kind of "spring-loaded" to stay off to the side of the carboy bottom
when the cap is installed. So now you use a stainless cable clamp to secure
the cap to the carboy, then you lay the carboy on its side and rotate it
until the vent tube is facing upward. Now prop the bottom of the carboy up
three to four inches with a block of wood (I made a cradle out of rigid foam
insulation), attach the inlet hose and open the boil pot valve. The carboy
is more or less horizontal, there's an air space at the elevated end for the
vent tube to vent air out, and you can siphon from a height of only a little
over a foot and still fill the carboy pretty much to the brim if you so
desire. Of course, you need to make sure that the inlet hoses are securely
clamped and the cap is securely attached, because they contain the liquid in
the carboy until it is righted again at the end of the rack. I pitch the
yeast before the rack operation. And yes, a little bit of yeast dribbles
out the vent tube when the carboy gets laid on its side, but who cares?
When the rack is complete, rotate the carboy upright (make sure the rack
tubing is long enough to allow this), remove the carboy cap and hoses,
oxygenate, and attach a blowoff hose.
Oh, and a handy thing for sanitizing tubing assemblies in general is a
length of 4" thin-wall PVC pipe with an end cap, filled with iodophor
solution. I think 30" is around a gallon.
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Date: Thu, 01 Mar 2001 13:21:18 -0500
From: David Harsh <dharsh at fuse.net>
Subject: Bockfest Zinzinnati
"Ahrendt, Eric (E.J.) <eahrendt at visteon.com> asks about Bock Fest in Cinti
Check out http://www.barrelhouse.com/bockfest2001.html for details.
Kickoff parade is Friday night followed by the blessing of the bocks,
competition is Saturday at 1 p.m. Loads of other stuff too. Be there, etc.
Dave Harsh
Bloatarian Brewing League Cincinnati, OH
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Date: Thu, 1 Mar 2001 13:18:24 -0500
From: "S. SNYDER" <SSNYDER at LBGHQ.com>
Subject: plastic carboys
Brent,
I don't really have advice, I was also recently wondering the same thing.
Since I have been doing alot of lagers recently (my cellar is at lager temps
now), I haven't been able to do a weissbier until recently. I don't want to
buy a butt load of glass carboys (I have 3) and I have an endless source of
plastic ones. My main concern for the plastic secondary as opposed to my
plastic primary is how long the beer sits in it.
I think sanitation would be an issue also. If you use them once and that's
it, maybe you're OK, but time after time it would likely be a sanitation
problem. I know even after sanitation, my primary still smells like beer.
I'll follow the discussion thread, but I'd like to know what you find out.
Scott Snyder
Trumbull, CT 06611
ssnyder at lbghq.com
Rotten Rotti Brewing Company
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Date: Thu, 1 Mar 2001 13:27:58 -0500
From: "S. SNYDER" <SSNYDER at LBGHQ.com>
Subject: re: Oxygenating Wort and Pitching Yeast
Kevin:
Need a lot more info.
Is the yeast liquid or dry?
What strain?
What ale?
What % alcohol (err...original gravity)
Wyeast, White labs or other?
What volume wort?
Did you do a starter?
What size was the original yeast? (don't say microscopic :) )
What has been your experience with lag times? 2 hours or 2 days? Any
previous experience with this strain of yeast?
What temp is your wort at?
I see no difference between rousing before or after pitching. It depends on
when I remember to rouse. I try to aerate with a SS whisk before the
rousing in either case.
Scott Snyder
Trumbull, CT 06611
ssnyder at lbghq.com
Rotten Rotti Brewing Company
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Date: Thu, 01 Mar 2001 12:56:15 -0800
From: Kelly E Jones <kejones at ptdcs2.ra.intel.com>
Subject: HBD on Avantgo
A partial answer to why some of you can't access HBD through Avantgo:
According to the Avantgo developer's site, there is a 32K _per page_
limit for Avantgo pages. This is apparently due to some OS's (like
palm) being unable to display more than 32K at a time. Since the HBD is
typically up to 50K of html all on one page, this makes it unreadable on
some OS's. (My Jornada 680 on WinCE does not have such a limitation,
which is probably why I'm able to use this without problems). My guess
is that, despite what the documentation says, Avantgo has removed the
32K limit for it's servers, however the limit of course remains for the
The solution would be for whoever owns the HBD -> html code to create an
html'ized version just for Avantgo which would consist of either an
index on one page which points to all of the articles each on their own
page, or just to split up the digest into two pages (each under the 32K
limit) which would be linked from a common entry page, and linked to
each other. Don't know who owns the code, though, or how much demand
there would be for this feature.
Kelly
Forest Grove, OR
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Date: Thu, 1 Mar 2001 13:05:16 -0800 (PST)
From: Earl Atwood <earl_atwood at yahoo.com>
Subject: St. Louis points of interest
Greetings brewKings.
I have a trip scheduled to St. Louis next week. Would
appreciate any recommendations for brew related points
of interest (brewpubs, etc) in the St. Louis area.
Direct e-mail responses to: earl_atwood at yahoo.com
Thanks in advance.
Earl in Cheyenne, WY
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Date: Thu, 1 Mar 2001 13:42:09 -0800 (PST)
From: Scott Murman <smurman at best.com>
Subject: sylmarin
Like many here I'm sure, I qualify as a regular drinker, though
usually only a pint or so a night. I'm curious about using sylmarin,
or milk thistle extract, to help my liver handle the constant toxin
load. I have fluoride in my drinking water, and calcium in my orange
juice, so I'm not above taking a capsule or two of sylmarin if it
helps my liver. The little I've seen on this stuff indicates that
there is some real tangible benefit, basically without any side
effects. I know some here are real-life MD's, and I'm wondering what
opinions they could share. Anyone out there actually doping
themselves this way? Any cheap sources for the stuff?
-SM-
Redwood City, CA
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Date: Thu, 01 Mar 2001 17:44:12 -0500
From: Kevin Peters <kpeters at ptd.net>
Subject: What is Kilncoffee Malt?
I was paging thru the book "North American Clone Brews" by Scott
Russell (no affiliation, yada, yada) and in the recipe for Black
Chocolate Stout, he calls for kilncoffee malt. It isn't black
malt, chocolate malt, or roasted barley since the same recipe also
calls for those 3. Any ideas what this is? Who makes it?
Kevin Peters
Mechanicsburg, PA
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Date: Thu, 01 Mar 2001 19:09:05 -0400
From: "Abby, Ellen and Alan" <elal at pei.sympatico.ca>
Subject: Re: Irish Moss Question
Jeff Renner wrote:
>
> Alan McLeod <elal at pei.sympatico.ca> writes:
>
> >So I think I am going along fine adding Irish moss to a secondary for
> >the first time, learning and doing...This is the second time I check the
> >books after adding...I boil up about 3/4 oz of irish moss make about 3
> >cups of clear strained sludge and dump it in the secondary...That must
> >be way too much I think...dump 'er out and put about one cup back
> >in...Boom in goes the English Pale Ale and I wait.
>
> Whoa, Alan!!! You're using the Irish moss wrong! It's what's called
> a copper (or kettle) fining - you use it in the boil - typically the
> last 10 minutes. And not that much. It leaves no flavor that way.
> It coagulates excess protein and makes for a better hot break. I'm
> not surprised you are getting a seaweed flavor if you use it in the
> secondary.
>
> What you need is gelatin or isinglass for fining in the secondary.
> When I need to fine a beer, I use a packet of unflavored gelatin for
> 5 gallons or a 1/4 barrel and it works just fine. Dissolve it in a
> cup of water or beer, microwave it until it's clear, then stir in
> into the secondary as you rack from the primary. It drops out the
> suspended yeast and other spooge (technical term). It's fun to watch
> in a carboy - it clarifies from the top down in a matter of hours.
> Shine a flashlight through from the back.
>
> Sounds like you've got a good beer to go with lobster.
>
> Hope this helps.
> --
> Jeff Renner in Ann Arbor, Michigan USA, c/o nerenner at umich.edu
> "One never knows, do one?" Fats Waller, American Musician, 1904-1943
Now, the questionable nature of instigation of my error / experiment
being admitted, it did work... I have at other times used geletin in
the secondary as Chris Swersey has suggested and realize that it is used
in the boil. It has, however, cleared the beer in the secondary and,
in light of my very low mineral content in the water, added a strong but
not obnoxious taste...if you like salt. The irish moss did become a
particulate grabbing agent and dropped down to the bottom over a week.
It was lumpy unlike geletin, needed some cheese cloth filtering and
using less would be the plan...but it did work.
That being said, I will dutifully add it to the boil next time and
compare outcomes.
I am not afeared of learnin through being dumb!
Alan
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Date: Thu, 01 Mar 2001 23:13:42 +0000
From: Craig MacFarlane <craigm at chemconnect.com>
Subject: Mash temps
At 12:16 AM 3/1/01 -0500, you wrote:
>Date: Wed, 28 Feb 2001 17:18:17 -0500
>From: "Eric R. Lande" <landeservices at juno.com>
>Subject: Strike temp
> Well I
>doughed in and brought up the water volume to 1 qt/lb, but the temp
>leveled around 142F. I infused some more boiling water and could not get
>the temp up to my 148F target. (I even resorted to the Charlie P. book)
I think Papazian's book does a really, really poor job
on this subject. At least the first edition that I bought
ten years ago.
The final temperature of the mash is dependant on the
ratio of grain to strike water, the initial temperature of the grain,
and the initial temperature of the mash tun.
Someone else probably knows the exact equation, but it
can be found on Palmer's website. http://www.howtobrew.com/
Using the temperature values Papazian gives can
produce unacceptably large deltas.
Craig
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Date: Thu, 01 Mar 2001 18:54:06 -0500
From: Peter Matra <petermatra at mobile.att.net>
Subject: Yeast culturing
I got a bottle of Chimay Red and want to culture the yeast in it. I took
the sediment on the bottom of the bottle and put it into a pint of water
with sugar. How long do you think it will take to get the yeast to a high
count?
I've never attempted this before...so can anyone give me some tips. I've
searched the web but have not found simplified instructions on doing this!
can anyone please help! thanks
peter matra
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Date: Thu, 1 Mar 2001 20:34:59 -0500
From: "brewski" <brewski at zoomnet.net>
Subject: Brew Fest in Louisville, KY
I have heard that there is an upcomming Beer Fest in Louisville, KY. =
Anyone know anything about this or where I might get info on it?
Thanks,
Mike
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Date: Thu, 01 Mar 2001 19:52:56 -0700
From: Bob Devine <bob.devine at worldnet.att.net>
Subject: ein? stein beer
With the discussion of stein bier, one question I've
had for a while about this is: What size and quantity
of stones should be used?
Every article I've read shows good-sized rocks as their
example. But, there seems to be two competing forces:
- use many small rocks for greater surface carmelization
- use a few huge rocks for greater latent heat
I can see that a large rock will not cool as quickly
so it will produce better carmelization. But does one
want deeper carmelization or simply more?
enquiring minds, etc,
Bob Devine
(still not brewing in Utah, not me, uhh uhh, no way)
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Date: Thu, 1 Mar 2001 22:17:04 -0500
From: "Richard Matheny" <matheny at starpower.net>
Subject: Woe is me . . . I polyclared my Hoegaarden clone!
I polyclared my Hoegaarden clone! (I'm sure I could read George Fix through
a room-temperature, clear bottle of it as plainly as you read this email.)
In retrospect, this probably makes me an idiot; however, I'd like to ask if
anyone else has polyclared a beer intended to be cloudy, and whether I can
hope for any chill haze upon cooling it for consumption that might
compensate for my error and return my beer to style, at least visually. Any
comments would be appreciated. Flaming might also be appropriate.
********
Rich Matheny
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