@Cowgirlsamurai wrote:Anyone listen to the Full of Sith podcast? Since I loved Bryan Young’s three part series on the soundtrack, I started following him on Twitter and I’ve enjoyed most of what he has to say about the film. But today, I started listening to Full of Sith starting at the first episode after TLJ and he and the two cohosts agree 100% that this film PROVED that Kylo cannot be redeemed. I was floored. Also, this was a 1.5 hour long podcast on discussing their first reactions to the film and there was next to NO mention of Rey and Kylo’s dynamic other than their heartbreaking fallout after Snoke’s death (which further cements Kylo’s forever evil status to them). I started digging through his tweets and he does in fact state that Luke saying he can’t save Kylo means that Kylo’s doomed to the dark forever. He doesn’t address comments like “What about Luke saying ‘No one’s ever really gone?’” and Bryan replies to a lot of people normally. WTF? Has anyone listened the other follow up episodes? Dude’s supposedly seen the film 15 times now. Has he changed his mind? If so, he hasn’t posted about it on Twitter where he’s quite vocal. He hopes Force ghost Luke comes back to f*** with Kylo because of how straight up bad he is. I just can’t understand how you come out of this film wanting that.

Anakin already did that himself though... why do we need an exact repeat of Vader redeeming himself and dying? I mean if Kylo is going to die then to avoid the repeat of Vader just keep him evil and kill him.

I wouldn’t personally equate it to being the same as what Anakin did because Kylo’s death would end the bloodline (assuming he dies childless) and return the Skywalkers back to the force that created them. Anakin's death didn’t do that because he left Luke and Leia, and by extension, Kylo/Ben, to carry on his legacy.

Luke said in The Last Jedi that Anakin fulfilled the prophecy and brought balance to the force. He also said the balance was thrown out again by the darkness which rose in Ben Solo. It could therefore be argued that the death of Kylo/Ben, leaving no continuation of the Skywalker bloodline, would restore balance. The dark side might rise again at some point because of the need for future stories but it would tie the Skywalker Saga up in a neat bow to have Kylo end as Anakin began restoring balance and peace to the galaxy once more.

@Cowgirlsamurai wrote:Anyone listen to the Full of Sith podcast? Since I loved Bryan Young’s three part series on the soundtrack, I started following him on Twitter and I’ve enjoyed most of what he has to say about the film. But today, I started listening to Full of Sith starting at the first episode after TLJ and he and the two cohosts agree 100% that this film PROVED that Kylo cannot be redeemed. I was floored. Also, this was a 1.5 hour long podcast on discussing their first reactions to the film and there was next to NO mention of Rey and Kylo’s dynamic other than their heartbreaking fallout after Snoke’s death (which further cements Kylo’s forever evil status to them). I started digging through his tweets and he does in fact state that Luke saying he can’t save Kylo means that Kylo’s doomed to the dark forever. He doesn’t address comments like “What about Luke saying ‘No one’s ever really gone?’” and Bryan replies to a lot of people normally. WTF? Has anyone listened the other follow up episodes? Dude’s supposedly seen the film 15 times now. Has he changed his mind? If so, he hasn’t posted about it on Twitter where he’s quite vocal. He hopes Force ghost Luke comes back to f*** with Kylo because of how straight up bad he is. I just can’t understand how you come out of this film wanting that.

I don't know what this particular group's track record is, but I'm just going to take a stab in the dark and assume they run the typical dudebro SW podcast full of the kind of eye roll-worthy speculation that TLJ threw up all over. I'm referring to two years of Reylated mantras, Snoke theories, asking where Lando is, completely ignoring Rey and Kylo's connection as anything beyond m0rtal 3n3m1es 5ever, and scoffing at Reylo as a fanfiction fantasy fabricated by silly women and fake Star Wars fans.

Don't give their analysis a second thought if you're gonna keep listening. Expect it to disappoint. These people don't write SW movies. What they think doesn't matter. They got their asses handed to them by TLJ and apparently haven't learned a thing. At literally the very least, Ben Skywalker Organa Naberrie Solo, sympathetic legacy of the OT and PT, is getting a noble end in which he sacrifices himself for the light as an act of selfless love and dies the ultimate hero of the saga. And that's worst case scenario if J.J.'s feeling lazy and derivative.

@Cowgirlsamurai wrote:Anyone listen to the Full of Sith podcast? Since I loved Bryan Young’s three part series on the soundtrack, I started following him on Twitter and I’ve enjoyed most of what he has to say about the film. But today, I started listening to Full of Sith starting at the first episode after TLJ and he and the two cohosts agree 100% that this film PROVED that Kylo cannot be redeemed. I was floored. Also, this was a 1.5 hour long podcast on discussing their first reactions to the film and there was next to NO mention of Rey and Kylo’s dynamic other than their heartbreaking fallout after Snoke’s death (which further cements Kylo’s forever evil status to them). I started digging through his tweets and he does in fact state that Luke saying he can’t save Kylo means that Kylo’s doomed to the dark forever. He doesn’t address comments like “What about Luke saying ‘No one’s ever really gone?’” and Bryan replies to a lot of people normally. WTF? Has anyone listened the other follow up episodes? Dude’s supposedly seen the film 15 times now. Has he changed his mind? If so, he hasn’t posted about it on Twitter where he’s quite vocal. He hopes Force ghost Luke comes back to f*** with Kylo because of how straight up bad he is. I just can’t understand how you come out of this film wanting that.

Anakin already did that himself though... why do we need an exact repeat of Vader redeeming himself and dying? I mean if Kylo is going to die then to avoid the repeat of Vader just keep him evil and kill him.

I wouldn’t personally equate it to being the same as what Anakin did because Kylo’s death would end the bloodline (assuming he dies childless) and return the Skywalkers back to the force that created them. Anakin's death didn’t do that because he left Luke and Leia, and by extension, Kylo/Ben, to carry on his legacy.

Luke said in The Last Jedi that Anakin fulfilled the prophecy and brought balance to the force. He also said the balance was thrown out again by the darkness which rose in Ben Solo. It could therefore be argued that the death of Kylo/Ben, leaving no continuation of the Skywalker bloodline, would restore balance. The dark side might rise again at some point because of the need for future stories but it would tie the Skywalker Saga up in a neat bow to have Kylo end as Anakin began restoring balance and peace to the galaxy once more.

I guess my problem with that is the Skywalkers were not born out of the force... Anakin was. Shmi and whoever she came from was around long before the force made Anakin the chosen one. I definitely see Kylo making a sacrifice for Rey but it is 100% a carbon copy of Vader if he dies and they have made clear in this trilogy that Kylo isn't Vader.

@Cowgirlsamurai wrote:Anyone listen to the Full of Sith podcast? Since I loved Bryan Young’s three part series on the soundtrack, I started following him on Twitter and I’ve enjoyed most of what he has to say about the film. But today, I started listening to Full of Sith starting at the first episode after TLJ and he and the two cohosts agree 100% that this film PROVED that Kylo cannot be redeemed. I was floored. Also, this was a 1.5 hour long podcast on discussing their first reactions to the film and there was next to NO mention of Rey and Kylo’s dynamic other than their heartbreaking fallout after Snoke’s death (which further cements Kylo’s forever evil status to them). I started digging through his tweets and he does in fact state that Luke saying he can’t save Kylo means that Kylo’s doomed to the dark forever. He doesn’t address comments like “What about Luke saying ‘No one’s ever really gone?’” and Bryan replies to a lot of people normally. WTF? Has anyone listened the other follow up episodes? Dude’s supposedly seen the film 15 times now. Has he changed his mind? If so, he hasn’t posted about it on Twitter where he’s quite vocal. He hopes Force ghost Luke comes back to f*** with Kylo because of how straight up bad he is. I just can’t understand how you come out of this film wanting that.

You know what’s funny? My husband said the same thing. Anakin came from “nothing” and Kylo will become “nothing,” ending the Skywalkers and bringing things “full circle.” WTF, that sounds so freaking sad.

It’s not what I want to happen but I can totally see it ending with Kylo sacrificing himself to save Rey and the galaxy. I don’t agree with Bryan Young on everything and I don’t want him to be right about this, he makes some convincing arguments though! https://twitter.com/swankmotron/status/954572985045667840

The problem with his argument is saying the force brought the Skywalkers into existence is incorrect. It brought Anakin into existence. The Skywalkers were around long before Anakin was born. If this ended at six I'd say maybe he has a point in that Anakin returned to the force and therefore brought balance but obviously Anakin destroying the sith and dying didn't bring balance to the force so why would Ben destroying the first order and dying as well bring any balance to the force?

It is true that the Skywalkers existed before the force got involved (as far as we know, at least) with Shmi and her descendants, but we assume they were inconsequential in the grand scheme of (galaxy) things before Anakin came along. He was the chosen one, the one destined to bring balance to the force, which Luke said he did. When Anakin brought an end to the Sith and saved his son, he did what the force created him to do... except he left behind Luke and Leia. If the Skywalkers had ended with Anakin, it would have been job done. But then Leia gave birth to Ben who turned to the dark side and threw out the balance again.

@Cowgirlsamurai Seems like people have no idea how the trilogies work; Kylo was never going to be redeemed in a middle movie. This insistence that he's now completely irredeemable is just baffling to me. Unless it's about people being stuck in the OT model of redemption where it's about Person A redeeming Person B, a model that's failed twice now. But people can also, I don't know, redeem themselves? There's really nothing contradictory about Luke's statements that on one hand he can't save Ben but no one is truly gone. And if you completely ignore Rey/Kylo dynamic and how their very last scene plays out, then sheesh you're missing out on the core of this entire trilogy.

And luckily for Kylo, he's half-Solo too and not just a Skywalker He has options on how to live his life.

@Cowgirlsamurai wrote:Anyone listen to the Full of Sith podcast? Since I loved Bryan Young’s three part series on the soundtrack, I started following him on Twitter and I’ve enjoyed most of what he has to say about the film. But today, I started listening to Full of Sith starting at the first episode after TLJ and he and the two cohosts agree 100% that this film PROVED that Kylo cannot be redeemed. I was floored. Also, this was a 1.5 hour long podcast on discussing their first reactions to the film and there was next to NO mention of Rey and Kylo’s dynamic other than their heartbreaking fallout after Snoke’s death (which further cements Kylo’s forever evil status to them). I started digging through his tweets and he does in fact state that Luke saying he can’t save Kylo means that Kylo’s doomed to the dark forever. He doesn’t address comments like “What about Luke saying ‘No one’s ever really gone?’” and Bryan replies to a lot of people normally. WTF? Has anyone listened the other follow up episodes? Dude’s supposedly seen the film 15 times now. Has he changed his mind? If so, he hasn’t posted about it on Twitter where he’s quite vocal. He hopes Force ghost Luke comes back to f*** with Kylo because of how straight up bad he is. I just can’t understand how you come out of this film wanting that.

You know what’s funny? My husband said the same thing. Anakin came from “nothing” and Kylo will become “nothing,” ending the Skywalkers and bringing things “full circle.” WTF, that sounds so freaking sad.

It’s not what I want to happen but I can totally see it ending with Kylo sacrificing himself to save Rey and the galaxy. I don’t agree with Bryan Young on everything and I don’t want him to be right about this, he makes some convincing arguments though! https://twitter.com/swankmotron/status/954572985045667840

The problem with his argument is saying the force brought the Skywalkers into existence is incorrect. It brought Anakin into existence. The Skywalkers were around long before Anakin was born. If this ended at six I'd say maybe he has a point in that Anakin returned to the force and therefore brought balance but obviously Anakin destroying the sith and dying didn't bring balance to the force so why would Ben destroying the first order and dying as well bring any balance to the force?

It is true that the Skywalkers existed before the force got involved (as far as we know, at least) with Shmi and her descendants, but we assume they were inconsequential in the grand scheme of (galaxy) things before Anakin came along. He was the chosen one, the one destined to bring balance to the force, which Luke said he did. When Anakin brought an end to the Sith and saved his son, he did what the force created him to do... except he left behind Luke and Leia. If the Skywalkers had ended with Anakin, it would have been job done. But then Leia gave birth to Ben who turned to the dark side and threw out the balance again.

I understand what you are saying but if JJ chooses to literally rehash ROTJ again and Vader's fate again then I'd like to know in advance because I have no need to watch. Is the message they want to send that the Skywalkers need to die off because any new ones are just bad for the galaxy? That they are a tainted family? I don't know if that is the message they are going to choose to go with but I will personally have such a problem if they do and they gave Kylo the backstory they did. Even if Luke redeemed himself in this film, he and Leia and Han had a direct role in the fall of Ben Solo. If they plan to simply kill Ben off then the need to destroy the characters of the OT to tell this story is an awful choice because at least to me it means every last Skywalker was bad for the galaxy in the end. Each along the way made awful mistakes which resulted in awful things happening around the galaxy. I really don't want to leave the theater after nine having to say the only way to bring balance to the galaxy was to kill every bit of Anakin's bloodline off.

@Cowgirlsamurai wrote:Anyone listen to the Full of Sith podcast? Since I loved Bryan Young’s three part series on the soundtrack, I started following him on Twitter and I’ve enjoyed most of what he has to say about the film. But today, I started listening to Full of Sith starting at the first episode after TLJ and he and the two cohosts agree 100% that this film PROVED that Kylo cannot be redeemed. I was floored. Also, this was a 1.5 hour long podcast on discussing their first reactions to the film and there was next to NO mention of Rey and Kylo’s dynamic other than their heartbreaking fallout after Snoke’s death (which further cements Kylo’s forever evil status to them). I started digging through his tweets and he does in fact state that Luke saying he can’t save Kylo means that Kylo’s doomed to the dark forever. He doesn’t address comments like “What about Luke saying ‘No one’s ever really gone?’” and Bryan replies to a lot of people normally. WTF? Has anyone listened the other follow up episodes? Dude’s supposedly seen the film 15 times now. Has he changed his mind? If so, he hasn’t posted about it on Twitter where he’s quite vocal. He hopes Force ghost Luke comes back to f*** with Kylo because of how straight up bad he is. I just can’t understand how you come out of this film wanting that.

You know what’s funny? My husband said the same thing. Anakin came from “nothing” and Kylo will become “nothing,” ending the Skywalkers and bringing things “full circle.” WTF, that sounds so freaking sad.

It’s not what I want to happen but I can totally see it ending with Kylo sacrificing himself to save Rey and the galaxy. I don’t agree with Bryan Young on everything and I don’t want him to be right about this, he makes some convincing arguments though! https://twitter.com/swankmotron/status/954572985045667840

The problem with his argument is saying the force brought the Skywalkers into existence is incorrect. It brought Anakin into existence. The Skywalkers were around long before Anakin was born. If this ended at six I'd say maybe he has a point in that Anakin returned to the force and therefore brought balance but obviously Anakin destroying the sith and dying didn't bring balance to the force so why would Ben destroying the first order and dying as well bring any balance to the force?

It is true that the Skywalkers existed before the force got involved (as far as we know, at least) with Shmi and her descendants, but we assume they were inconsequential in the grand scheme of (galaxy) things before Anakin came along. He was the chosen one, the one destined to bring balance to the force, which Luke said he did. When Anakin brought an end to the Sith and saved his son, he did what the force created him to do... except he left behind Luke and Leia. If the Skywalkers had ended with Anakin, it would have been job done. But then Leia gave birth to Ben who turned to the dark side and threw out the balance again.

I understand what you are saying but if JJ chooses to literally rehash ROTJ again and Vader's fate again then I'd like to know in advance because I have no need to watch. Is the message they want to send that the Skywalkers need to die off because any new ones are just bad for the galaxy? That they are a tainted family? I don't know if that is the message they are going to choose to go down but I will personally have such a problem if they do and they gave Kylo the backstory they did. Even if Luke redeemed himself in this film, he and Leia and Han had a direct role in the fall of Ben Solo. If they plan to simply kill Ben off then the need to destroy the characters of the OT to tell this story is an awful choice because at least to me it means every last Skywalker was bad for the galaxy in the end. Each along the way made awful mistakes which resulted in awful things happening around the galaxy. I really don't want to leave the theater after nine having to say the only way to bring balance to the galaxy was to kill every bit of Anakin's bloodline off.

It’s not what I want to see, either. I’m just trying to be open to all possibilities. I want Ben to live, be redeemed and get a happy ending with Rey, I just haven’t seen anything to convince me all that is possible as yet.

Just to make a wider point - Not all people who see things differently to us here in the Reylo fandom are antis or bitter fanboys who were disappointed by TLJ. Star Wars fans like Bryan Young, and a few other vocal people in the fandom who aren’t big supporters of Kylo/Reylo, actually predicted a lot of TLJ correctly, including Rey not being a Skywalker in any form. Just because some fans are coming at this from a different angle, it doesn’t mean they’re not reading things correctly or don’t see the big picture. Many of them are better versed in Star Wars canon than I am, and Bryan Young has had many of his explanatory TLJ threads endorsed/retweeted by Lucasfilm employees, Rian has even liked a couple of them, I think. You don’t have to agree with every viewpoint but it’s disingenuous to dismiss them just because they’re not looking at things through a Reylo lens.

You can be right about a lot of things.....But dismissing the core of the trilogy, the relationship between Rey and Ben, who are being described as 'two halves of a whole' and a dynamic that has clear romantic implications, which has also been acknowledged by LF employees, is a mistake.We also knew that Rey was unrelated from the start, but we were also right about a lot of other things that these people tried to pretend didn't exist. So I'll take Scavenger's Hoard, Knights of Rant, SWC over any other podcast any day

@Cowgirlsamurai wrote:Anyone listen to the Full of Sith podcast? Since I loved Bryan Young’s three part series on the soundtrack, I started following him on Twitter and I’ve enjoyed most of what he has to say about the film. But today, I started listening to Full of Sith starting at the first episode after TLJ and he and the two cohosts agree 100% that this film PROVED that Kylo cannot be redeemed. I was floored. Also, this was a 1.5 hour long podcast on discussing their first reactions to the film and there was next to NO mention of Rey and Kylo’s dynamic other than their heartbreaking fallout after Snoke’s death (which further cements Kylo’s forever evil status to them). I started digging through his tweets and he does in fact state that Luke saying he can’t save Kylo means that Kylo’s doomed to the dark forever. He doesn’t address comments like “What about Luke saying ‘No one’s ever really gone?’” and Bryan replies to a lot of people normally. WTF? Has anyone listened the other follow up episodes? Dude’s supposedly seen the film 15 times now. Has he changed his mind? If so, he hasn’t posted about it on Twitter where he’s quite vocal. He hopes Force ghost Luke comes back to f*** with Kylo because of how straight up bad he is. I just can’t understand how you come out of this film wanting that.

You know what’s funny? My husband said the same thing. Anakin came from “nothing” and Kylo will become “nothing,” ending the Skywalkers and bringing things “full circle.” WTF, that sounds so freaking sad.

It’s not what I want to happen but I can totally see it ending with Kylo sacrificing himself to save Rey and the galaxy. I don’t agree with Bryan Young on everything and I don’t want him to be right about this, he makes some convincing arguments though! https://twitter.com/swankmotron/status/954572985045667840

The problem with his argument is saying the force brought the Skywalkers into existence is incorrect. It brought Anakin into existence. The Skywalkers were around long before Anakin was born. If this ended at six I'd say maybe he has a point in that Anakin returned to the force and therefore brought balance but obviously Anakin destroying the sith and dying didn't bring balance to the force so why would Ben destroying the first order and dying as well bring any balance to the force?

It is true that the Skywalkers existed before the force got involved (as far as we know, at least) with Shmi and her descendants, but we assume they were inconsequential in the grand scheme of (galaxy) things before Anakin came along. He was the chosen one, the one destined to bring balance to the force, which Luke said he did. When Anakin brought an end to the Sith and saved his son, he did what the force created him to do... except he left behind Luke and Leia. If the Skywalkers had ended with Anakin, it would have been job done. But then Leia gave birth to Ben who turned to the dark side and threw out the balance again.

I understand what you are saying but if JJ chooses to literally rehash ROTJ again and Vader's fate again then I'd like to know in advance because I have no need to watch. Is the message they want to send that the Skywalkers need to die off because any new ones are just bad for the galaxy? That they are a tainted family? I don't know if that is the message they are going to choose to go down but I will personally have such a problem if they do and they gave Kylo the backstory they did. Even if Luke redeemed himself in this film, he and Leia and Han had a direct role in the fall of Ben Solo. If they plan to simply kill Ben off then the need to destroy the characters of the OT to tell this story is an awful choice because at least to me it means every last Skywalker was bad for the galaxy in the end. Each along the way made awful mistakes which resulted in awful things happening around the galaxy. I really don't want to leave the theater after nine having to say the only way to bring balance to the galaxy was to kill every bit of Anakin's bloodline off.

It’s not what I want to see, either. I’m just trying to be open to all possibilities. I want Ben to live, be redeemed and get a happy ending with Rey, I just haven’t seen anything to convince me all that is possible as yet.

Just to make a wider point - Not all people who see things differently to us here in the Reylo fandom are antis or bitter fanboys who were disappointed by TLJ. Star Wars fans like Bryan Young, and a few other vocal people in the fandom who aren’t big supporters of Kylo/Reylo, actually predicted a lot of TLJ correctly, including Rey not being a Skywalker in any form. Just because some fans are coming at this from a different angle, it doesn’t mean they’re not reading things correctly or don’t see the big picture. Many of them are better versed in Star Wars canon than I am, and Bryan Young has had many of his explanatory TLJ threads endorsed/retweeted by Lucasfilm employees, Rian has even liked a couple of them, I think. You don’t have to agree with every viewpoint but it’s disingenuous to dismiss them just because they’re not looking at things through a Reylo lens.

I'm not dismissing them because it is completely plausible it will happen I just take issue if that is what in the end they tell us about the Skywalker family. If Reylo doesn't happen I will be okay because tbh I love Reylo but I am far more invested in Ben's story and what they are telling about that. I, just as someone who works with what I will describe as the angry youth, take serious issue with the backstory they gave him just to kill him off in the end. Had they wanted to do that they didn't need to destroy the reputations of Han, Luke and Leia along the way (imo). If the story of Ben and Rey is the journey of adolescence then that journey ending with the death of the "lost" youth as the only way to redeem himself sits very badly with me.

As for them getting part of TLJ correct like Rey's parentage well I mean good for them they watched TFA where they were told it? TLJ while surprising wasn't actually that shocking if you paid attention to TFA. Also, I know they have liked some of his tweets but I'm going to take a big guess and say Rian and LF haven't liked anything to do with his stance on Kylo not being redeemed seeing as Rian is a huge Kylo stan who made an entire point about peeling back the layers to Kylo. People being well versed in Star Wars canon still hasn't brought them any closer to understanding what the story if the sequel trilogy is about.

I have no problem with the fact they tore down Luke, Leia and Han to build up Kylo's backstory but I will have a huge problem in the end if the story is the Ben must die to end Anakin's line because all it brings is chaos and pain.

I’m confused about the Mortis Arc thing. Bryan’s using it as proof Kylo will die, but Reylos and proredemption people are also using it as proof for their views. I tried watching WaywardJedi’s videos on it m, but got lost and then bored

The problem with a tragic Shakespearean ending for Ben Solo is that this isn't just an opera in space we're talking about - Star Wars is a fairytale. If the last Skywalker is doomed to "become nothing" or to "unite with the Force to atone for his family's evil", then that renders the family legacy into meaninglessness. Anakin's suffering and redemption, Luke's hopes and dreams, his hobo years and atonement, Leia's suffering, Ben's victimization, his fall to the dark side, suffering and eventual redemption - all for nothing. Say what now, what now??

Although it would be fitting in some nihilistic postmodern "nothing means anything and that was the meaning of this the whole time lulz" take on Star Wars, that ending would be the opposite of satisfying. It would actually be pretty damn depressing and disheartening for that to be the case. People are free to have their own opinion, but to me this line of thinking is missing the forest for the trees - context matters. Let's look at the big picture. This isn't Game of Thrones, where a tragic ending is pretty much a given because that's the context, and storylines need to exist within it. Star Wars is the opposite of "You suffer and then you die: that's life." It's for kids.

Please take a look at a quote from George Lucas about his intent when crafting Star Wars and remember what it is all about:Source: American Film Institute

True, Lucas gave up custody of his legacy, but Disney is THE fairytale-maker and they worship the almighty dollar. Fairytales aside, it makes zero sense to kill off the last member of one of the most lucrative families in the history of film for the sake of making some artsy point about poetic nihilism.

KrazyForKylo wrote:Just to make a wider point - Not all people who see things differently to us here in the Reylo fandom are antis or bitter fanboys who were disappointed by TLJ. Star Wars fans like Bryan Young, and a few other vocal people in the fandom who aren’t big supporters of Kylo/Reylo, actually predicted a lot of TLJ correctly, including Rey not being a Skywalker in any form. Just because some fans are coming at this from a different angle, it doesn’t mean they’re not reading things correctly or don’t see the big picture. Many of them are better versed in Star Wars canon than I am, and Bryan Young has had many of his explanatory TLJ threads endorsed/retweeted by Lucasfilm employees, Rian has even liked a couple of them, I think. You don’t have to agree with every viewpoint but it’s disingenuous to dismiss them just because they’re not looking at things through a Reylo lens.

@KrazyForKylo, this isn't about Reylo. This is about the big picture: Star Wars. Btw I am guessing this is not what you intend but the irony of your comment is that implying that people here are dismissing anyone who doesn't have Reylo tunnel-vision regardless of how uber-brilliant they are is...dismissing people's point of view. :/

@Mana wrote:You can be right about a lot of things.....But dismissing the core of the trilogy, the relationship between Rey and Ben, who are being described as 'two halves of a whole' and a dynamic that has clear romantic implications, which has also been acknowledged by LF employees, is a mistake.We also knew that Rey was unrelated from the start, but we were also right about a lot of other things that these people tried to pretend didn't exist. So I'll take Scavenger's Hoard, Knights of Rant, SWC over any other podcast any day

Right on. At this point, I can't take any speculation about Kylo's future that omits his dynamic/relationship with Rey seriously at all.

Personally I don't see the point of being open to *all* possibilities. I don't see Episode IX ending with the bad guys winning, and I don't see Kylo ending the trilogy an unredeemed villain. To me it's like sun rising in the east.

@Cowgirlsamurai wrote:I’m confused about the Mortis Arc thing. Bryan’s using it as proof Kylo will die, but Reylos and proredemption people are also using it as proof for their views. I tried watching WaywardJedi’s videos on it m, but got lost and then bored :lol:

I have a hard time picturing Lawrence Kasdan spending the past 5 or so years working with Lucasfilm, including writing the stories for both a father and a son with his son and the outcome is "they both died tragically." Man got Lord & Miller fired for not adhering to the story he wrote for Han and he's worked with/gave writing direction to JJ. So uh, yeah Ben will end up dead because the Fanboy Keepers of the Canon Flame part of the fandom (who'd be singing a different tune about the ST if their beloved Luke hadn't been given a heroic moment as an out for what he did to his nephew) demand it.

@Cowgirlsamurai wrote:I’m confused about the Mortis Arc thing. Bryan’s using it as proof Kylo will die, but Reylos and proredemption people are also using it as proof for their views. I tried watching WaywardJedi’s videos on it m, but got lost and then bored

As far as the Mortis arc, I haven’t listened to Bryan Young’s reasoning, but does he see Kylo as the son and Rey as the daughter? The son was killed with Anakin Skywalker’s lightsaber. Is that what he thinks will happen? If so, perhaps he taking it a little too literally? The daughter sacrificed herself to save the father. Does he think Rey will die too?

I think any inspiration from the CW Mortis arc is more Force related than literal. I don’t think JJ is going to follow that story’s exact beats.

@Darth Rowan wrote:The problem with a tragic Shakespearean ending for Ben Solo is that this isn't just an opera in space we're talking about - Star Wars is a fairytale. If the last Skywalker is doomed to "become nothing" or to "unite with the Force to atone for his family's evil", then that renders the family legacy into meaninglessness. Anakin's suffering and redemption, Luke's hopes and dreams, his hobo years and atonement, Leia's suffering, Ben's victimization, his fall to the dark side, suffering and eventual redemption - all for nothing. Say what now, what now??

Although it would be fitting in some nihilistic postmodern "nothing means anything and that was the meaning of this the whole time lulz" take on Star Wars, that ending would be the opposite of satisfying. It would actually be pretty damn depressing and disheartening for that to be the case. People are free to have their own opinion, but to me this line of thinking is missing the forest for the trees - context matters. Let's look at the big picture. This isn't Game of Thrones, where a tragic ending is pretty much a given because that's the context, and storylines need to exist within it. Star Wars is the opposite of "You suffer and then you die: that's life." It's for kids.

Please take a look at a quote from George Lucas about his intent when crafting Star Wars and remember what it is all about:Source: American Film Institute

True, Lucas gave up custody of his legacy, but Disney is THE fairytale-maker and they worship the almighty dollar. Fairytales aside, it makes zero sense to kill off the last member of one of the most lucrative families in the history of film for the sake of making some artsy point about poetic nihilism.

KrazyForKylo wrote:Just to make a wider point - Not all people who see things differently to us here in the Reylo fandom are antis or bitter fanboys who were disappointed by TLJ. Star Wars fans like Bryan Young, and a few other vocal people in the fandom who aren’t big supporters of Kylo/Reylo, actually predicted a lot of TLJ correctly, including Rey not being a Skywalker in any form. Just because some fans are coming at this from a different angle, it doesn’t mean they’re not reading things correctly or don’t see the big picture. Many of them are better versed in Star Wars canon than I am, and Bryan Young has had many of his explanatory TLJ threads endorsed/retweeted by Lucasfilm employees, Rian has even liked a couple of them, I think. You don’t have to agree with every viewpoint but it’s disingenuous to dismiss them just because they’re not looking at things through a Reylo lens.

@KrazyForKylo, this isn't about Reylo. This is about the big picture: Star Wars. Btw I am guessing this is not what you intend but the irony of your comment is that implying that people here are dismissing anyone who doesn't have Reylo tunnel-vision regardless of how uber-brilliant they are is...dismissing people's point of view. :/

Its frustrating because most of these fanboy podcasters have been dismissing the 'Reylo POV' for two years when perhaps you're actually meant to look at it through a Reylo pov? I'm pretty sure Rian did when he wrote TLJ! Everything from Rey being held up on an island that's a giant symbol for female sexuality and sexual awakening, the Force bond, to the shirtless scene, the hand touch, to Rey sticking up for Kylo and then Kylo sticking up for Rey and then the PG fight that showcased what a kickass pair they make....everything exists to facilitate the growth of their not-so-platonic relationship. And then the big break up scene which has been likened to the botched Pride and Prejudice proposal, Jane Eyre and Micheal and Kay.....It's all romantic drama at it's finest!!

@Darth Rowan wrote:The problem with a tragic Shakespearean ending for Ben Solo is that this isn't just an opera in space we're talking about - Star Wars is a fairytale. If the last Skywalker is doomed to "become nothing" or to "unite with the Force to atone for his family's evil", then that renders the family legacy into meaninglessness. Anakin's suffering and redemption, Luke's hopes and dreams, his hobo years and atonement, Leia's suffering, Ben's victimization, his fall to the dark side, suffering and eventual redemption - all for nothing. Say what now, what now??

Although it would be fitting in some nihilistic postmodern "nothing means anything and that was the meaning of this the whole time lulz" take on Star Wars, that ending would be the opposite of satisfying. It would actually be pretty damn depressing and disheartening for that to be the case. People are free to have their own opinion, but to me this line of thinking is missing the forest for the trees - context matters. Let's look at the big picture. This isn't Game of Thrones, where a tragic ending is pretty much a given because that's the context, and storylines need to exist within it. Star Wars is the opposite of "You suffer and then you die: that's life." It's for kids.

All of this. To get people to care about the Skywalkers just to say in the end that investing in this family was worthless because the only thing that can bring peace to this galaxy ultimately is to eradicate the family's bloodline from the galaxy is the opposite of a story about love, hope, and redemption. To say in the end that all this family ever brought was chaos and heartache for the galaxy seems to be the most depressing message possible.

@Darth Rowan wrote:The problem with a tragic Shakespearean ending for Ben Solo is that this isn't just an opera in space we're talking about - Star Wars is a fairytale. If the last Skywalker is doomed to "become nothing" or to "unite with the Force to atone for his family's evil", then that renders the family legacy into meaninglessness. Anakin's suffering and redemption, Luke's hopes and dreams, his hobo years and atonement, Leia's suffering, Ben's victimization, his fall to the dark side, suffering and eventual redemption - all for nothing. Say what now, what now??

Although it would be fitting in some nihilistic postmodern "nothing means anything and that was the meaning of this the whole time lulz" take on Star Wars, that ending would be the opposite of satisfying. It would actually be pretty damn depressing and disheartening for that to be the case. People are free to have their own opinion, but to me this line of thinking is missing the forest for the trees - context matters. Let's look at the big picture. This isn't Game of Thrones, where a tragic ending is pretty much a given because that's the context, and storylines need to exist within it. Star Wars is the opposite of "You suffer and then you die: that's life." It's for kids.

All of this. To get people to care about the Skywalkers just to say in the end that investing in this family was worthless because the only thing that can bring peace to this galaxy ultimately is to eradicate the family's bloodline from the galaxy is the opposite of a story about love, hope, and redemption. To say in the end that all this family ever brought was chaos and heartache for the galaxy seems to be the most depressing message possible.

Exactly, that kind of cruel irony and cynicism does not feel like a story or message I would expect to see in Star Wars. Undoing the significance of Anakin’s redemption by killing off his lost and misguided grandson would be awful. I’m sorry, but no amount of happily ever after for Rey, Finn or Poe as the new legacy would thaw the visceral chill of that kind of ending of the Skywalkers.

@ISeeAnIsland wrote:I'm currently watching No Country for Old Men on cable right now (a movie I've seen many times before). It's a great movie, but also one of the bleakest movies I can recall in recent years.

Exactly. No Country for Old Men. Mystic River. Leaving Las Vegas. Now these are bleak movies. Geez, just thinking about Kelly McDonald and Javier Bardem ... wow ... when the Coens go dark they don't fool around.

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I'm just going to make an observation as somebody whose childhood was the OT, but this whole business with rules and what George Lucas intended and canon is very much something which cropped up long after the OT finished. Because LF went into the business of publishing (the EU) and the games (RPG and video) in the decades between the OT and the PT in terms of producing new content. When I went to go see TFA almost 2 years ago, I was marginally aware of everything that had cropped up around the original movies in terms of publishing, games, and collecting but I can swear that I never noticed this much of a fixation on 'rules' and mythology as an OT fan back in the day the way you sure as Hell noticing it coming up now around the ST. And I'm sure that there are people as well versed in the that mythology the same way that there are people whose second language is Klingon. Which sure, if you have ancilliary questions when it comes to building a fictional world in terms of questions like linguistics, history, or religion, those people know their stuff. But the fixation on the 'rules' is at the expense of narrative and character building. It's also a major blindspot because a lot of these types of fans immerse themselves only in that world and meanwhile, you hear from the filmmakers themselves about the larger influences in terms of folklore, fairy tales, literature, and filmmaking. Maybe when I've read commentary by one of these type of fandom big names, they always mention Joseph Campbell. But beyond that? They're not going to get into which filmmakers are an influence on the franchise or even grasp that the ST is primarily led by women. It may be men listed as the writers and directors, but LF is a female led company and it's a female centric trilogy. To not acknowledge at all that it's Rey's story and her relationship with Ben is one thing. To continue to go on about how a 15 year old cartoon series at this point is critical and meanwhile, no mention of the female gaze, the Heroine's Journey (which is NOT the Hero's Journey with Rey as a self-insert for Luke), the themes of awakening sexuality in the imagery used, et cetera et cetera. Saying that Rey isn't a Skywalker isn't a great insight or a brave stand against fandom hivemind, it should be common sense from the start. But to continue to go on about some of these types of discussions overrules what a lot of us have thought and which have been proven correct - LBR, it's an entrenched predominantly male part of the fandom. And most of us here who have been interested in discussing this relationship/interpretation for the ST are female (not all of us, but most). Reading some of these arguments about how things are going to go a certain way because these fans supposedly have more access to the 'right' type of information is just ugh. There's already enough of a subtle (and not so subtle) sexism going on about who's interpretation is supposedly correct and this just feels like it veers into that territory.

Kylo sacrificing himself for love and light and returning to the Force alongside his family is an okay ending. Just okay. It's a bit too grim of a conclusion for such a young, tragic character who never got the chance to really live, but I wouldn't storm out of the theater. The dudebros have one thing right IMO. The sacrifice element in and of itself is essential. Kylo has to be willing to selflessly give up everything (his power and his life) for love, and I think he has to actually carry out the act.

So here's the catch, Kylo is not the main character of this story, and the way I see it Rey can never really achieve belonging without her other half (without Ben Solo). Having Kylo Ren sacrifice himself only to be brought back as a consequence of their connection feels right to me. There's precedence for it in the story what with so much emphasis being placed on Rey and Kylo's intertwined destiny. It also gives me very "J.J." vibes.

I like the idea of Rey literally reaching out to the Force itself, having Ben reach back, and having her pull him out (we've already seen evidence of Kylo being drawn more and more into Rey's world with each Force bond session). J.J. could draw on what Rian set up there if he wants to. I also like the kiss of life concept (it would depend on if they wanted to have Kylo's body vanish or not with his sacrifice).

Of course balance is always a give and take. Death feeds new life. Something has to be given up for something else to be reborn. Kylo can't live with both love and power. That was Anakin's downfall also. If Kylo sacrifices himself for love and experiences a rebirth as a result of his connection with Rey, I would prefer for him to come back as a powerless man void of any connection to the Force. I think he needs to return the Skywalker connection back to the Force from whence it came order to really live. Rey's belonging is with the one who could still come back, Ben Solo reborn. I know some people have this image in their mind of Kylo integrating the shattered parts of himself, but at least for me, that's not how this works. The dark side is a corruption in SW. More than enough thematic emphasis has been placed on the dichotomy between the character's Solo heart and his Skywalker blood (love vs. power, Kylo vs. Ben, "the deed split your soul to the bone," "your son is gone," "my son is gone" "no one's ever really gone"). For Ben to be reborn and live freely, Kylo and his connection to Anakin's Force powers has to die IMO (the loving heart and compassionate nature is all he ever needed from his grandfather anyway, "I will finish what you started. Nothing (Rey) will stand in our way." Cue power of love Yub Nub celebration. We'll see, but I would prefer for it to just be that simple in the end.

Last edited by MyOnlyHope on Tue 23 Jan 2018, 12:26 am; edited 4 times in total

The other part is that the line of thought "they're going to end the entire family at the end of the ST" is a pretty disengenous argument because it's coming from a lot of fans who immediately jumped to the conclusion of Rey Solo before TFA came out, pivoted to Rey Skywalker when they saw TFA, and now that TLJ has come out, it's now "burn everything down" because they're pissed that Ben is indeed the one and only legacy child (and fail to recognize he's a bit of comment on them).

@MyOnlyHope wrote:@Darth Rowan I agree. An actual harmful message for young people to hear is one that says making bad choices condemns us to darkness. The idea that there's no coming back from our mistakes.

And antis cry about how sending the message that putting love and compassion out there, especially toward those who have wronged us, is crippling to little girls...

Yeah, in this same vein, I just read an article in the Atlantic today where Lloyd Dobler of Say Anything and a lot of people's favorite, Spike, were lumped in the "harmful/problematic/sexual harasser" character category.

I mean Lloyd Dobler? (His sin was holding up the radio and intruding on Diane Court's boundaries).

We should be thanking the movie gods that KK doesn't give a Sith and we got Kylo/Ben. And thankfully this article did not mention Reylo, but by this logic, if Rey works out things with Kylo/Ben, she is still somehow a victim... you know like how Diane Court and Buffy are apparently victims now. (Rolling my eyes so hard right now).

I think many fans are overly influenced by a religious vision of the story. Perhaps this is why many of them expect expiation as the only way to redeem the character, a final sacrifice to expiate his sins.I don't like to see it that way, Star Wars can recall Shakespearean tragedies, but I prefer to consider it a fairytale that must have a happy ending.Even the death of Vader, I never considered it a complete sacrifice: yes he sacrificed himself to save his son, but he also died because he was old and sick.On the contrary, Kylo is still young and strong, and he has a whole life ahead of him, especially considering that until now the poor man has already lived a hellish life made of loneliness and abuse. Wouldn't he deserve some happiness?I think that Rose has already told us in TLJ what will happen in the end: to win we have to save what we love. Simple. So in the end Kylo will not necessarily have to sacrifice himself, but he will fight for what he loves (... Rey ...) and for a right cause. Or at least that's what I hope