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I'll also comment that there are always folk on the very extremes. Yeah, I look sideways at things I see as silly and weird. Mostly I just don't comment because I honestly couldn't possibly care any less. I think the point here is to realize that, for better or worse, Aikido did morph into a very large and diverse thing. Not all Aikido is the same, it hasn't been for a very long time. There are many pursuing what I personally think of as Aikido as seen through the lens of "new age" spiritualism. That's just not for me. That said I wish the best to those who pursue that end. So I shrug and move on.

Some on the other extreme see Aikido as basically a very hard jujutsu and (in my view) seem to miss out on a lot of the subtle stuff that gave O-sensei and even the founders of these styles a lot of their power. Some seem to focus on the omote of what they saw but miss the ura (again, IMO). That's also not for me. But again, more power to those who do see it as a good thing. So I shrug

I guess I shrug a lot...

Well Keith maybe I will just have to become a shrugger like you?
I'm just being very inquisitive, why call "it" aikido that is, a martial art, if really what one is doing is in actual fact not anymore?
I have already decided that I don't really do aikido anymore, I just called it that because I didn't know what else to call it, because it started as that, as that was what I was doing, everybody told me so, so I believed them, but is not now, so morphed it has become.....
So maybe it's ju jutsu I do and will have to call it that, how about Towa Jujutsu?..... Anyone got a translation on what Towa would/could mean, To & Wa being the first 2 letters my second name and surname (obvious!!).... nothing rude I hope....

'It is said that aikido is the way of harmony.
I think it is simple to explain this saying.
If you face someone, and you can make
that person's animosity disappear,
by your own true character,
This is the harmony of Becoming One.
This is not a compromise.
Harmony is a matter of having strength
yourself,
and then making the other your ally.
He becomes your partner.
This is "making harmony in opposition."
But, unless you accumulate virtue,
it is impossible.
To sum up, the foundation is
your own inner strength.'

Well Keith maybe I will just have to become a shrugger like you?
I'm just being very inquisitive, why call "it" aikido that is, a martial art, if really what one is doing is in actual fact not anymore?
I have already decided that I don't really do aikido anymore, I just called it that because I didn't know what else to call it, because it started as that, as that was what I was doing, everybody told me so, so I believed them, but is not now, so morphed it has become.....
So maybe it's ju jutsu I do and will have to call it that, how about Towa Jujutsu?..... Anyone got a translation on what Towa would/could mean, To & Wa being the first 2 letters my second name and surname (obvious!!).... nothing rude I hope....

Tell people that you do old style Tomiki Martial Aikido or just Martial Aikido.

dps

Trust only movement. Life happens at the level of events not of words. Trust movement. --Alfred Adler

'It is said that aikido is the way of harmony.
I think it is simple to explain this saying.
If you face someone, and you can make
that person's animosity disappear,
by your own true character,
This is the harmony of Becoming One.
This is not a compromise.
Harmony is a matter of having strength
yourself,
and then making the other your ally.
He becomes your partner.
This is "making harmony in opposition."
But, unless you accumulate virtue,
it is impossible.
To sum up, the foundation is
your own inner strength.'

Dude: 1. You mistook me (not for the first time) for somebody else solely on the basis of a shared first name - which hardly indicates you're the antithesis of slow, or loathe to be argumentative and insulting, in order to compensate for an inferiority complex, hence prone to not looking before you leap.).

2. I wasn't calling you slow. I quoted where you had needlessly, and pathetically called me slow, because what you said made no sense (as it was directed towards Graham Christian); and I contrasted your approach to conflict with that of an aikido great - one who was renowned for a particularly martial approach, and yet had a very peaceful, insightful view of conflict and aikido.

Actually Graham I'm still in disbelief at your videos...... I have looked at every one of them..... I just find it hard to believe that you can equate what you do as a martial art? I have to be honest and say it looks more like afternoon tea at Graham's....
I'm sorry Graham I'm not into disliking people so much, there are plenty of those around, but you sound like a nice guy, I'm sure you are, but what what you bring up or express as aikido as a "martial art" is somehow a little misleading?
I will be honest and say what you are doing is more akin to some kind of health pastime with some connection to "aikido"? Can I presume that is what you are actually doing? Maybe a Japanese version of Tai Chi for health as a comparison...?
Please enlighten me......

Tony. Thanks for the clarification. If you have never seen it done like that before then your view makes perfect sense.

I also agree that from that view presenting it as a martial art can look a little misleading.

Firstly may I say that we are ALL guilty of ridiculing things we see and don't understand and thus are left with our own conclusions.

A japanese version of Tai Chi for health? I like it, that's quite close. In fact when people ask me what it is I do, and usually get the name wrong and say kung fu or taikwondo, I say it's Aikido but more like Tai Chi in the way I teach it.

This I find leads them away from wanting to do it if they want to learn how to fight or indeed self defence and shows them I teach for self developement. Once again I must add the word spiritual health as well as mind and body.

It may seem contradictory to you or even to many but through my own experience and that of my students and indeed my friend who teaches very similar to me we have found that it works dramatically in confrontational situations in real life. My personal and second hand examples are numerous and all the acknowledgement I need.

Thus I tell all that the prime purpose of what I do is self developement and self defence comes as a result.

I did find one thing very interesting though when I read so much about what people considered 'reality' when it comes to Aikido as most of it seemed to me to be conjecture. I started a thread asking for stories and experiences where people in Aikido had taught and helped people from a different martial art. Hardly any replies.

Now there's a reality. If Aikido as a whole is so far up it's own .....
and thinks it's so good then why aren't more Aikidoka teaching and helping people from other martial arts? I see plenty of people saying how they must go to other things in order to improve their Aikido yet not much the other way round. Is the whole of the Aikido community one big clique?

Anyway hope that answers your question and remember, as one old master famously said to another ' I f you want to get ahead get a hat!'

Even if we're confining matters to verbal attacks, I think there are some points you're missing. If (for example) someone uses a racial epithet in speaking to someone else, do you really feel that it's inappropriate for anyone else to say, "Hey, that ain't right"? Because that's the kind of thing we're talking about here.

I think even in that situation the best thing is for the person who it's directed at to say "hey, that ain't right." Simply because that's the most powerful way to deal with it. Anyone else is going to be treated like an outsider by the "attacker". I see it happening all the time on different forums. Other people getting involved inevitably means the argument growing and discussions getting derailed. And in the end pretty much no one changes their behaviour.

By the way I'm not saying one can't say something supportive to the target of the verbal attack. I know in my own case if someone would attack me on a discussion forum, I'd appreciate it much more if people would tell me that they understood my point of view, instead of getting into an argument with the other person (who by that time I probably would think is an idiot anyway ).

Do you mean over sensitivity Matt? I suppose it's like somebody that takes their "painting" to the Louvre in Paris, thinking it's really wonderful only to find out that nobody is bothering to look at it and wondering why? He/she overhears a conversation amongst some art critics who are saying that this not art, it is rubbish.... Whisperings in the back ground upset the the painter..... but alas he/she is not deterred.....Anyways a little while later some "common" folk come along and are all looking at it ooohing and aaaghing saying what a lovely interesting painting it is having no idea as to what "art" is suppose to be all about? They move on to the next painting which is by Picasso and they all say "Blimey my kid could do better than that"
The "Art critics" are disgusted at the "common people" and turn their noses up in horror because these "common people" can't see where the "art" is?

I suppose the simplicity is in the way I think and see as it all is far too obvious, it is just like those "common" people as it is too much to bear for these "art critiques" so they turn their noses up at it and remain in their clique as the art critiques, but are unable to paint or do a work of art themselves.....

Close?

Hi Tony,
Some of it might be over-sensitivity, but I hesitate to say so because I really don't know anyone here. It's too relative, to my mind. If you can say they're being over sensitive, they can just as easily say you're lacking sensitivity. So I prefer to think of it as simply being a matter of different expectations brought on by what feels normal to us...which is conditioned from how we're raised and how we've lived so far.
The question to my mind is: to what degree are people willing to adjust their mannerisms to suit the situation? And why? If people are feeling insulted by my choice in language I almost always adjust my bahavior, but while being clear (I hope) of where I stand. My beliefs are mine regardless of how I express them, so I often look to be able to express them in different ways when i think it will make them more easily received.
I've been trying to write this post for an hour now, but my 2-year old is a demanding little cuss. I'll try to come back to it a bit later because I'm not feeling at all organized with what I'm trying to say, but here's a start.
Take it easy!
Matt

I'm just being the real me, no gang, no BS, no hidden agenda.... Excuse my ignorance, but I just cannot see where some of you are coming from at times, they ramble on about the in and outs of such and such without getting to the point, or eventually arrive there after much rear wind.

"The things that pass for knowledge, I don't understand."

Of course, that doesn't mean it's not knowledge. It only means that the speaker doesn't understand.

As for people rambling on about the ins and outs of such and such, without getting to the point....maybe you're just not paying enough attention to appreciate the subtle points they're making. In any case, you have recourse to the Ignore button as well as everyone else does. So rather than being so judgmental ("eventually arrive there after much rear wind..."), why don't you just skip those posts or ignore the poster?

Quote:

Attilio Anthony John Wagstaffe wrote:

I am now getting to the point that "aikido" as a "martial" art is degenerating more into martial "fart"

You're going to have to be specific, Tony. Whose aikido is becoming a "martial fart"? I hear this complaint a lot and I do understand that "some people's aikido" was never anything but flatulence. But it's wrong to label aikido itself that way because aikido itself has never changed. There's only the question of whether one has ever entered that "do" or is only imitating an appearance they saw somewhere. But if you're saying that aikido as it is generally taught has become something like that, then you need to provide examples, rather than just state your opinion. Otherwise, it's not really a statement at all, but just a blanket insult. And that never wins much acceptance. So where is this aikido that you perceive to be degenerating? How do you know it's degenerating?

Quote:

Attilio Anthony John Wagstaffe wrote:

I can see to some extent that it is most likely that most do it for health as they get older, and that is to me acceptable, but it's the young ones coming in that should be practising "hard" so that they are able to understand the "soft" This is what is worrying me about the state of aikido, because believe me most other MA or those of other persuasion think we are a laughing stock and who can blame them...?

As he great scientific genius Richard Feynman said, "What do you care what others think?" The last "fighting" type guy I dealt with, I stood in front of him in a natural stance and said, "Attack any way you want." I had no trouble dealing with his attack.

Have you ever heard that saying "Fools hear of the tao and laugh out loud"?

It's from Tao Te Ching, by Lao Tzu, section 41. I recommend it for you, especially. The quote ends, "If there were no laughter, the tao would not be what it is."

Quote:

Attilio Anthony John Wagstaffe wrote:

What amazes me is that they then wonder why their "aikido" does not work to protect them, that is a shame for aikido, but most hide behind the word "aikido" because in reality they cannot produce the goods.

Yes. The famous "they".

Who are you talking about, Tony? Who is it that wonders why their "aikido" does not work to protect them?

I don't know of anyone in aikido who has had that complaint except people who gave up early because they thought they were already masters and knew how to "fix" an art they had never deeply studied.

But you seem to know some specific people with that complaint. So please share with us who they are and under what circumstances their aikido failed them. Or have you, maybe, spoken from a source other than "reality"?

Quote:

Attilio Anthony John Wagstaffe wrote:

Within one year of doing "aikido" I was able and reasonably good at protecting myself, even more so now after all these years. Maybe a tad slower than I used to be, but the feet don't go as fast as they used to, but I will still teach it as an art of self defence, as realistically as possible......

What you say there is really no different from what I've heard far and wide, though you vary in how you define the terms. You deride others for not being "martial" even though you've never met them and usually haven't even seen them work.

Quote:

Attilio Anthony John Wagstaffe wrote:

I will also teach it for health, if required, but will make no bones about the fact it will not work if one "thinks" to use the health approach in a possible attack on ones person. That, I make abundantly clear as it would be a terrible lie to do otherwise.

I don't differentiate between "health" and "self-defense" as the nature of aikido encompasses both. The fact that you even perceive a difference indicates that you don't understand either side terribly well. There's nothing better for health than real aikido. And there's nothing better for self-defense, in my opinion.

Quote:

Attilio Anthony John Wagstaffe wrote:

I really get the impression that maybe some of you are still under that illusion and still need a reality check from time to time.

That may be, but you implicitly tell us that you, yourself, are under no illusions, while everyone reading your posts (maybe only 99%) definitely perceive someone who is deep in the throes of delusion.

Quote:

Attilio Anthony John Wagstaffe wrote:

If you are, please get real as I will repeat, and will keep repeating that you are not doing "aikido" you are doing martial dance and that is all there is to it.....

Tony...we have seen your video. If we watch that by the standards you have presented, we can't judge it very well. It certainly appears to be cooperative and very dance-like. Plus, all your ukes are kids. We don't see you operating with any full adults or any black belts. Last time I demonstrated, a few weeks ago, I had two men as ukes, each with twenty years of martial arts training--one being an avid student of Jeet Kune Do, the other with a long background in Chinese martial arts. Maybe I'm inclined to think you're doing a martial dance? Maybe you are in no position to judge anyone else's aikido?

Because of all this you get resistance from every side (except Henry, who's never met you, and Graham Christian, who resists no one). But you answer everyone with insults (except Henry).

Really, of everyone on this board, you seem to get out and get around least of all. Pretty much everyone who posts here gets around to seminars and meets other people and experiences other styles and teachers. From your posts, I get the impression that you haven't done anything like that in over 25 years. Have you?

The point is, you're making unsupported, general dismissals of thousands of people you've never met and have never seen. And yet you wonder why people seem to be closed to you and why you keep getting suspended from the forums.

Well, that's why.

In tao.

David

"That which has no substance can enter where there is no room."
Lao Tzu

I think even in that situation the best thing is for the person who it's directed at to say "hey, that ain't right." Simply because that's the most powerful way to deal with it. Anyone else is going to be treated like an outsider by the "attacker". I see it happening all the time on different forums. Other people getting involved inevitably means the argument growing and discussions getting derailed. And in the end pretty much no one changes their behaviour.

We'll have to agree to disagree. I believe that public disapproval of antisocial behavior is the most effective way to stop it. In bullying situations, if the bully's victim is the only one who ever says something, everyone believes that the victim is standing alone -- because, well, it's the truth. It's when others publicly express their disapproval of the antisocial behavior and their support for its victim, in a way that the bully, the victim, and everyone else sees it, that things change. The famous words of Martin Neimoller come to mind here.

Of course, that doesn't mean it's not knowledge. It only means that the speaker doesn't understand.

As for people rambling on about the ins and outs of such and such, without getting to the point....maybe you're just not paying enough attention to appreciate the subtle points they're making. In any case, you have recourse to the Ignore button as well as everyone else does. So rather than being so judgmental ("eventually arrive there after much rear wind..."), why don't you just skip those posts or ignore the poster?

You're going to have to be specific, Tony. Whose aikido is becoming a "martial fart"? I hear this complaint a lot and I do understand that "some people's aikido" was never anything but flatulence. But it's wrong to label aikido itself that way because aikido itself has never changed. There's only the question of whether one has ever entered that "do" or is only imitating an appearance they saw somewhere. But if you're saying that aikido as it is generally taught has become something like that, then you need to provide examples, rather than just state your opinion. Otherwise, it's not really a statement at all, but just a blanket insult. And that never wins much acceptance. So where is this aikido that you perceive to be degenerating? How do you know it's degenerating?

As he great scientific genius Richard Feynman said, "What do you care what others think?" The last "fighting" type guy I dealt with, I stood in front of him in a natural stance and said, "Attack any way you want." I had no trouble dealing with his attack.

Have you ever heard that saying "Fools hear of the tao and laugh out loud"?

It's from Tao Te Ching, by Lao Tzu, section 41. I recommend it for you, especially. The quote ends, "If there were no laughter, the tao would not be what it is."

Yes. The famous "they".

Who are you talking about, Tony? Who is it that wonders why their "aikido" does not work to protect them?

I don't know of anyone in aikido who has had that complaint except people who gave up early because they thought they were already masters and knew how to "fix" an art they had never deeply studied.

But you seem to know some specific people with that complaint. So please share with us who they are and under what circumstances their aikido failed them. Or have you, maybe, spoken from a source other than "reality"?

What you say there is really no different from what I've heard far and wide, though you vary in how you define the terms. You deride others for not being "martial" even though you've never met them and usually haven't even seen them work.

I don't differentiate between "health" and "self-defense" as the nature of aikido encompasses both. The fact that you even perceive a difference indicates that you don't understand either side terribly well. There's nothing better for health than real aikido. And there's nothing better for self-defense, in my opinion.

That may be, but you implicitly tell us that you, yourself, are under no illusions, while everyone reading your posts (maybe only 99%) definitely perceive someone who is deep in the throes of delusion.

Tony...we have seen your video. If we watch that by the standards you have presented, we can't judge it very well. It certainly appears to be cooperative and very dance-like. Plus, all your ukes are kids. We don't see you operating with any full adults or any black belts. Last time I demonstrated, a few weeks ago, I had two men as ukes, each with twenty years of martial arts training--one being an avid student of Jeet Kune Do, the other with a long background in Chinese martial arts. Maybe I'm inclined to think you're doing a martial dance? Maybe you are in no position to judge anyone else's aikido?

Because of all this you get resistance from every side (except Henry, who's never met you, and Graham Christian, who resists no one). But you answer everyone with insults (except Henry).

Really, of everyone on this board, you seem to get out and get around least of all. Pretty much everyone who posts here gets around to seminars and meets other people and experiences other styles and teachers. From your posts, I get the impression that you haven't done anything like that in over 25 years. Have you?

The point is, you're making unsupported, general dismissals of thousands of people you've never met and have never seen. And yet you wonder why people seem to be closed to you and why you keep getting suspended from the forums.

Well, that's why.

In tao.

David

Well David lets see one of yours and then maybe we can judge you? , Those "kids" you refer to are in their twenties the lower grade was also a karate student and had also done a style of kung fu, the other one is a black belt unless you are colour blind? The two young ladies happen to be Japanese and have also studied karate...
I have also had gymnasts in my club who have also developed very strong bodies and can do things that I am not able, they were not able to resist my waza.... I find older people 30's and onwards are not so keen to join my dojo (before we closed down). In fact we were considered somewhat rough by most other clubs around the area and the fitness levels were too hard for most. Tomiki aikido is also a sport style as you may well know and uses resistance. Unfortunately the video was done as a promotion video for the students union of the Uni I was teaching at, so I had no control over its editing as it was done by the film and media studies group that came along to do it. For some strange reason they edited out the randori kyogi which was considered a bit too rough for a promotion video for the Union, one of the reasons I was not happy about staying there for much longer after being there from 1990 - 2007 amongst other things....
That take was done completely of the cuff with no prior warning so everything you see is done spontaneously. I put up so maybe you can to?
You say insults, I call them observances, believe me if I wanted to insult you I would have done that by now in a much bluer tone....

The last seminar I went too was in 1993, after that I felt things had changed for the worse, although there were some young fit and quite good players on that course they still had trouble handling me, I was in my forties then....

Dude: 1. You mistook me (not for the first time) for somebody else solely on the basis of a shared first name - which hardly indicates you're the antithesis of slow, or loathe to be argumentative and insulting, in order to compensate for an inferiority complex, hence prone to not looking before you leap.).

2. I wasn't calling you slow. I quoted where you had needlessly, and pathetically called me slow, because what you said made no sense (as it was directed towards Graham Christian); and I contrasted your approach to conflict with that of an aikido great - one who was renowned for a particularly martial approach, and yet had a very peaceful, insightful view of conflict and aikido.

I don't now.... Sorry Graham Christian (at least he doesn't get wound up like you....?) Also I dont quote other peoples sayings, only my own.....
Dude....

I think we might be thinking of slightly different scenarios here. I don't think anything I've seen on Aikiweb would quite amount to what I'd call bullying. If something had I might actually agree with you.

Non-sequitur. This thread is not about videos, it's about whether Aikiweb allows an open exchange of ideas, or if it is a clique that only permits a de facto party line. One possibility that has been raised is that the problem is not with what you say, but how you say it, e.g., blunt expression and "harmless ribbing". I ribbed you about your communication skills, and your response was "show me a video", as if skill in aikido (which I don't do) has anything to do with the subject at hand. Classical ad hominem. Don't try to change the subject; man up and address the question of whether your style of communication is at cross-purposes with what you trying to communicate.

Josh Reyer

The lyf so short, the crafte so longe to lerne,
Th'assay so harde, so sharpe the conquerynge...
- Chaucer