Biden and Pelosi’s “In Your Face” to Pope Francis

There had been a little off-track betting going on among pro-life Catholics ( a tautology for sure) as to whether or not Vice Joe Biden and House Minority Leader Nancy Pelosi would receive Holy Communion at the Mass of Installation for Pope Francis in Rome on Tuesday. The yeas far out-polled the nays and the yeas proved to be right.

It was really a no-brainer. Biden and Pelosi and other pro–choice politicians have been thumbing their noses at church teaching for many years now. Even though it has been repeated ad infinitum that their behavior is contrary to the Catholic teaching regarding the sanctity of human life from conception to natural death they have continually presented themselves at the altar rail. They have never been denied the sacrament.

Some bishops have personally advised them not to receive Communion since their public stand aids and abets a heinous crime. These warnings are, however, deemed pastoral and have no teeth. There is no unanimity among the bishops as to their imposition and whether or not an offending politician can be denied the sacrament if he or she presents themselves for Communion.

The timidity of the bishops stems from the lack of agreement as to how a bishop should apply Canon 915. The canon states, Those who are excommunicated or interdicted after the imposition or declaration of the penalty and others who obstinately persist in manifest grave sin are not to be admitted to Holy Communion. This becomes problematic for two reasons: first, because many bishops are loathe to accuse politicians of grave sin; and second, because excommunication is a formal juridical act which effectively cuts off the offender from the sacramental life of the church. It also means the denial of a Catholic funeral. Since there is no direct mandate from the Vatican most bishops don’t want to take the risk of not being supported in their decision.

No doubt there would also be a strong public outcry protesting freedom of conscience and the obligation of politicians to represent their constituents. Of course, there will also be references to the Mario Cuomo mantra, “I am personally opposed to abortion but …” given at Notre Dame, in 1984, in which he cleverly tried to separate religious belief and public morality. This speech was condemned by Cardinal John O’Connor, since it violated traditional Catholic teaching on the importance of public officials to form their consciences in light of the church’s moral teachings and the obligation to enact legislation in accord with it. Cuomo, however, was never counseled not to receive Communion. Ever since more and more Catholics have decided that they can make their own decisions as to what is right and wrong.

Politicians like Biden and Pelosi have been stubborn and contumacious in their pro-choice policies and in presenting themselves for reception of the Eucharist. They know that the American bishops, for the most part, prefer a “pastoral approach” which means basically let’s talk to them and help them to see the error of their ways. It has not worked and there is no indication that it will. The topic of this essay is proof enough! They also know that Catholic priests are instructed not to cause a scene on the Communion line and that the person be permitted to receive. Both of them take advantage of these charitable loopholes.

There is a solution and perhaps some hope for stronger enforcement of church policy on offending pols. The Vatican should clearly state that politicians who promote a culture of death, abortion and euthanasia, are subject to excommunication by their bishop. Pope Emeritus Benedict XVI made an unofficial statement on a trip to Mexico, in 2007, stating that excommunication for pro-choice legislators was not arbitrary and is part of Canon Law. This would strengthen Canon 915 and some bishops’ back-bones. It is well known that Pope Francis forbade pro-choice politicians from receiving Holy Communion in his diocese in Argentina. Perhaps the new Pope can move this project along?

By the bishops refusing to take strong action, such as excommunication, politicians will continue their “in your face” attitude toward the church and her leaders. Such a failure will also continue to allow Catholics and people of good will to be scandalized. Even worse, it gives the impression that others may follow the behavior of wayward politicians with impunity.

Biden and Pelosi only did at the Vatican what they have been allowed to do at home. As the great Lutheran pastor Dietrich Bonhoeffer stated so well, dear bishops: Not to act is to act!

Chaplain and Research Fellow at Ave Maria Law. Father Michael P. Orsi was ordained for the Diocese of Camden in 1976 and has a broad background in teaching and educational administration. Fr. Orsi has authored or co-authored four books and over 300 articles in more than 45 journals, magazines and newspapers. He has served as Assistant Chancellor, Assistant Vicar for Pastoral Services, Director of Family Life Bureau, and Coordinator of Pope John Paul II’s visit to New Jersey for the Diocese of Camden. He has also served as a member of The Institute for Genomic Research at the University of Pennsylvania and as a member of New Jersey’s Advisory Council on AIDS. Fr. Orsi holds a Doctorate in Education from Fordham University, two Master degrees in Theology from Saint Charles Seminary, and a Bachelor of Arts from Cathedral College. He is presently serving as Chaplain and Research Fellow in Law and Religion at Ave Maria School of Law, Naples, Florida. He is a member of the Fellowship of Catholic Scholars. In 2005 Fr. Orsi was appointed as a Senior Research Associate to the Linacre Center for Bioethics, London, England. Fr. Orsi co-hosts a weekly radio program The Advocate which discusses law and culture on WDEO-AM 990, WMAX-AM 1440 in metro Detroit and WDEO-FM 98.5 in southwest Florida [also linked at www.avemarialaw.edu].

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It is time for the ones who Confirm the young “Soldiers of Christ” develop the courage OF a Soldier of Christ.

Laura

Where are the photos of them receiving communion? Not one iPhone photo? Are you kidding me? Only their office confirms this? I cannot believe the Pope didn’t instruct the priests at the Vatican, if that’s true.

JoAnn, NJ

Thank you, Fr. Michael, for your clear explanation of this problem. I was appalled to hear that Pelosi and Biden would “represent” Catholic Americans at Pope Francis’ installation! That is a lie, and it flies in the face of pro-life Catholics! I fear that the integration of church and state is becoming more entrenched than ever before.

germainjd

Bishops are (since Vatican II) too influenced by the USCCB to be “individuals” any longer. Individual responsibility is more direct than blaming a group. Pope Francis ought to do away with conferences of bishops so that each bishop will be responsible for himself, as they were prior to the creation of conferences of bishops, this would prevent a bishop from pointing a finger at the rest of the group, thus making “no one” responsible.

GregCz

Shame on them for receiving communion knowing that they support Abortion and Gay marriage. They will need to answer to God.

http://www.facebook.com/barry.sullivan.3388 Barry Sullivan

Last year I attended the Georgetown pro-life conference and asked Arch Bishop Chaput the following question:”Maryland “Catholic” Governor Martin O’Malley has publicly stated he supports abortion throughout all 9 months of pregnancy, and is making the legalization of gay mariage his number one priority in the upcoming year (note he was successful and gay marriage is legal in MD now), should he be excommunicated? If not, is there anything a “Catholic ” politician could do that would warrant excommunication?” Unfortunately, he got rather upset with me and stated that we who call for excommunication just don’t understand the complexities of what that means. His response was very discouraging given that he is considered very pro-life. It also made me realize the chance of one of these merchants of death being excommunicated, bar a solid declaration by the Pope, is virtually non-existant and the faithful will continue to be scandalized.

http://www.foxnews.com Mtxun

My understanding of those entrenched and supportive of clearly anti-Catholic teachings and practices ARE, de-facto, ex-communicated from fellowship in the church and of formal reception of the sacraments. IF this IS the case, then it is an ommission not to make them aware that reception of the sacraments is NOT possible. THEY ex-communicated themselves by standing AGAINST the bride of Christ, the church, and, in effect, THUMBING THEIR NOSES at Christ Himself. It would be EASY to deny them communion and the other sacraments — UNTIL, they seek fellowship again in the church, renounce Satan AND his liberal pseudo-sacraments: abortion, gay marriage, euthenasia, communism, et alio, which form the “agenda” of the democrat party.

http://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=522875025 Margaret Schaut

The order should have gone out NOT to give pro-abort politicians OR non-catholics could not have communion. This is very upsetting, makes the church look, once again, like a larger hypocrite than ever, at best. Always catholics have concerned themselves with the poor, that is NOT different. Concerning herself with her Lord, however, is another matter.

chronovisor

AMEN! they should of BOTH been denied, they should of BOTH been shamed! sick of gutless church leaders NOT doing what they’ve been entrusted to do, that’s the REAL crisis/scandal of the church!

eccevitae

Jesus mercy! Mary help!

Bob

Thank you for putting it in black and white. Time for the Bishops to “Man up”

Struggler

A person in our parish who has flouted Church teaching regarding divorce and remarriage came up to receive communion after being counseled not to do so. I lovingly reached out and blessed him instead of giving him the Eucharist. He quietly went back to his seat and has never mentioned the incident. Since then, he goes to receive from one of the extraordinary ministers of communion.

Bernice

It’s high time to boot them out. If they conduct their personal lives with no respect they govern the same way.

March 21: I’m glad someone is writing about this…Biden and Pelosi, in effect, by promoting the killing of human babies in the womb are guilty of being accomplices in this mass slaughter…in civil court an accomplice to murder is guilty of murder…and Pelosi’s assistant tweeted back home to her people that she had indeed received the Eucharist–this is really an act of defiance and proves to her people that she has been accepted as a Catholic in good standing…she should have been refused…that would not have caused scandal. The scandal is that she and Biden and others like them in public office are permitted to continue to receive the Eucharist.

http://www.facebook.com/tom.macdougall.75 Tom MacDougall

When a person who had notoriously flouted Church teaching came up to receive the Eucharist, I lovingly reached out and blessed that person instead of giving them the Eucharist. The person quietly returned to their seat. Since then they go to a different administer of communion. Someday, we might all stand together and their will be no problem.

I don’t think one needs to be ‘excommunicated’ in order to be told they are not to receive Holy Communion…Cardinal Dolan has stated he would never refuse the Eucharist to anyone for that would be to ‘politicize’ the Eucharist so he has allowed Gov. Cuomo to aggressively pursue his anti-life, pro gay marriage agenda and Cuomo and his family have now come out attacking Pope Francis in a vicious way because Pope Francis is pro-life and against gay marriage…Cuomo, Pelosi, Biden and other do this because they know they can get away with it with no consequences whatsoever…they pursue an evil agenda, and they are affirmed in this evil by those who permit them to continue to receive the Eucharist…and they are denied the possibility of conversion because they are assured they are Catholics in good standing with the Church…write a respectful letter to Arch. Chaput, not asking for ‘excommunication’ but explaining your confusion and sadness and see what happens…meanwhile, we pray!!

You are right, I believe. And in order to be able to receive the Sacraments, they are obliged to go to Confession and to PUBLICLY renounce their former anti life agendas…let us wait and see what Pope Francis will do…he has told his people in Argentina that those who promote abortion publicly must not receive Communion. In a letter to the American Bishops some years ago Pope Benedict emeritus wrote clearly about this stating that no one in public office who publicly promoted abortion should receive the Eucharist. Cardinal McCarrick received the letter but did not share it with the Bishops…he only shared his interpretation of it…so let us pray that Pope Francis will speak out publicly and clearly about this soon…

Please, Father, let us stop calling these ‘pro-choice’ politicians…it makes them sound so noble. We are anti-abortion while they are pro-choice…they are pro-death …if they were silently just accepting the legalization of abortion, that would be one thing but both Pelosi and Biden are rabidly and aggressively promoting abortion and receiving money from Planned Parenthood to do so…as I have said before, Biden even went to Africa to a country in desperate need of financial assistance and told them that if they would include abortion rights in their new constitution then the money would flow but if they refused…this is so horrendous it’s beyond understanding. And yet this man, Biden, laughs and clowns while promoting the slaughter of innocent human babies…he is an accomplice in mass murder..and yet, he is permitted to consider himself a faithful Catholic…no wonder the Church is losing so many members….if this keeps up, people will consider to ask: “If one can order the killing of millions and still be considered a Catholic in good standing, then what would be considered a moral evil?” Mother Theresa used to say that a nation that kills its young will not survive…I love the Church but those in leadership positions…if they continue to allow those who participate in the mass slaughter of millions of innocent babies to be considered Catholics in good standing, then more and more Catholics will drift away – I will never leave the Church, but something needs to be done. The Church in America has become too political…sure, Bishops came out fighting when they were threatened with having to pay for contraception etc..but that was going to hit their wallets…sorry, but that’s how I feel…every Bishop, every Pastor, every Catholic should be out in the public square crying out with a loud voice: “Stop the killing! Stop the killing!” those who do not have blood on their hands!

Terri

Perhaps we are forgetting that God has the last word and he will decide. If you are guilty of grave sin and still choose to take the sacrament without confession, you will answer to God. But perhaps we need to leave the judgement to God. We can bring to light the truth without judgement and hope that they will listen to the Holy Spirit. Pray for their souls and the souls of those that support unnatural death. I feel that if we do that then we are doing our part and allowing God to do the rest. God bless us all.

As for the ‘I am personally opposed but..’ mantra…what if pedophila were to be made legal, or if slavery was still the law of the land…? Would politicians be permitted to say I am personally opposed but…? What if the holocaust was to begin here in our country…against, let’s say, blacks and hispanics…would politicians be able to say “I am opposed but…” and get away with it? Sorry, if they were silently standing by and letting this slaughter go on, that would be one thing but they are actively and publicly and aggressively promoting more and more killing…Cuomo wants unrestricted abortion, at any time, any place, for any reason…and he and others want non-medical personnel to be able to perform these abortions. Can you see where this will lead? Evil begets evil…look at Kermit the abortionist who snapped the necks of babies, who delivered live babies and killed them…no groundswell of public horror at this! Abortion facilities are unregulated while pregnancy resource centers are always over regulated…this evil of extermination of human life if left unchecked will move on to post-birth killing…it has happened elsewhere…we need to pray for the Bishops to use common sense…and it is a mercy to those like Biden and Pelosi to be told to refrain from receiving the Eucharist. Then perhaps they will realize the horror of what they are doing. A parent who knows his child is committing crimes or doing terrible things can’t just say – now don’t do that and give no consequences. If not consequences are given, the child will think it’s no big deal and the parent isn’t serious…this has gone on far too long…it’s time to stop the killing!!! Stop the extermination of generations of human beings!!! We will all be held accountable!

Tm

They don’t need to be denied the Eucharist to protect Christ, they are told to not recieve the Eucharist for their own protection! For to recieve Him in grave sin is to eat and drink judgement upon themselves. We should be praying for them and the wrath of God they may have procured.

ROY W

POLITICIAN’S ARE NOT AFRAID TO MURDER INNOCENT’S . WHY IS OUR CHURCH AFRAID TO EXCUMUNICATE? ANY ONE THAT TAKES INNOCENT LIFE? WILL SHE EVER STAND UP FOR WHAT SHE BELIEVE’S? WHAT IS SHE AFRAID OF? ARE THE LAITY THE ONLY ONE’S THAT SUPPORT LIFE? ROY W

Here’s another thing to consider…we know that Margaret Sanger, the founder of Planned Parenthood, had as her goal the elimination of ‘undesirables’ such as blacks and Hispanics and the mentally handicapped and we know that evil has no boundaries so – what would happen if the government mandated that blacks and Hispanics could only have one child? Would Biden and Pelosi promote that too?? Why wouldn’t they? If they promote the killing of human babies, why would they not promote limiting the number of babies a woman could have? Evil begets evil…evil perpetuates itself…

KT1

My first reaction was: excommunicate them! I am no fan of Pelosi and Biden (and Cuomo and O’Malley, etc..) but then I thought of Saul/Paul. The Lord works in mysterious ways. Maybe, just maybe, receiving the Body of Christ may lead to their conversion? One can only hope and pray that is the case. I also thought: imagine how much more evil they would be if they had never received the Body of Christ. Am I off the mark?

MrsSpooky

I am an EMHC at my very pro-life parish. I asked the deacon in charge of the ministry if we would be allowed to refuse the Eucharist to any of these pro-abortion politicians. He said yes, we are. I warned him that if I see Pelosi in line I’m going to just tell her to go to confession. He smiled.

Julie

I think you have a point. If I recall correctly, this is what my grammar school nuns taught me.

Julie

Good job and a great way to handle the situation. But wasn’t a Priest recently removed after he did the same to a lesbian at her mother’s funeral? I sent the Priest an e-mail offering my support. I don’t know what ever happened to him.

dave

One of the problems that arise, in the allowance of politicians of the Catholic faith in defiance of Catholic doctrine, regarding the receiving of the Eucharist in a state of sin, is that it, by proxy, gives the false illusion that it is acceptable to Catholic parishioners to receive if they hold opinions of the same virtue. Thus is the trickle down effect. If this offense, which is one of highest, as it is against Jesus Himself, is acceptable, then all other lesser offenses become that much more acceptable. It gives credence that if this Doctrine is of such little importance then the others must also be of same or equal little importance. Ultimately, if believing abortion and the propulsion of gay marriage support is NOT a gave sin then why are any others? Either you believe all of it, as Doctrine was inspired by the Holy Spirit, or you believe none of it. The result of this thinking and lack of resolve is that Catholics might as well be Lutherans, Baptist, Calvinist or any other reformers. In the end, the Church becomes a Protestant church under the disguise of Catholicism. It always surprises me that this continues, as being under the Archdiocese of Chicago, and having heard Cardinal George I know he’s a man of intelligence. I think many people are as baffled as I when it comes to this subject. Another problem that I see is when priest invite low level politicians with the same abortion views etc. as guest speakers about immigration reform and when they arise to higher levels of government only then does the Catholic hierarchy speak out against the politicians views that just earlier in their career were invited guest at community parishes. And we wonder why we have the most pro-abortion, anti-catholic, anti-Christian administration in American history?

IndependentinNC

God Bless You for the Truth. To often the ones that rise to the top are the ones that have no business being there. I hope and pray that our new Pope is truly a man of God and Thought – Word – and Deed.
Viva il Papa.

NYCFiredog

NOW, it is for the Holy Father to call his Bishops and Cardinals to obedience. This should not be an issue left to the discretion of politicians disguised as Clerics. The great failing of our Priests is one of pride that they are above being questioned by laymen like yourself. There is a condescension in their attitudes that “We know better.” It is a holdover from the days of the educated Priest, and the illiterate peasants in need of guidance.

NYCFiredog

Fr Michael. Thank you for your courage, confronting this issue. IS this the debated issue it should be among you and your Brother Priests?

http://www.facebook.com/barry.sullivan.3388 Barry Sullivan

I agree with everything you said Dave except for the last point: “And we wonder why we have the most pro-abortion, anti-catholic, anti-Christian administration in American history?” I don’t think I wonder at all. I know and expect exactly what we have.

NYCFiredog

BUT IT TOOK A BLINDING LIGHTNING BOLT TO WAKE HIM UP. A Public rebuke from the Bishops and Cardinals who rub shoulders with the politicians could be just what they need. They defend the murder of babies in public, and wear the title of “Devout Catholic” in public. Let them be chastised and refused the Eucharist in Public.

http://www.facebook.com/barry.sullivan.3388 Barry Sullivan

KT1, Saul was knocked down and blinded by the Lord for what he was doing. He then had to seek out the Christian leaders, receive instruction and repent before his sight was restored, and then was invited to break bread (receive communion) and become one of the greatest evangelists in history. Is it Christian of us not to take significant actions against these proabortion politicians, give them honors, and watch them go into eternity never having repented” If I ever become pro-abortion, pro-gay marriage, etc. I pray my family and friends will take strong, tough actions to get me to repent and save my soul.

momof11

mixed ideas in my mind….to be honest i would not recognize them so if I was an EMHC, i would not know who they were or what they do: how many Italian priests/deacons would recognize them? They (the pols) bring condemnation on themselves if they receive unworthily, more so if they have been instructed by their bishop. Can a communion minister (ordinary or extraordinary) know if a person has repented or not and do they have the right to withhold the Eucharist if not given proof of repentance from such public sin. We do not require public confession….. I’m not saying they should have received even though they seem to be continuing in their sin, but the responsibility falls on them, not the minister of communion. Sadly they will just compound the sin by obstinately receiving when they should not. We must continue to admonish the sinner, but they still have the freedom to continue to sin….We must continue to pray for their conversion

I’m not sure what you mean by the young soldiers of Christ…but I will tell you this: I helped teach high school students who were preparing for confirmation. You would be stunned at how many out of those hundreds had never been to Mass, had no idea what the celebration of the Mass looked like and so one of the other teachers had to rent a video to show them; and the majority of these students had no intention of attending Mass or the Sacraments after confirmation. I spoke to the Priest in charge and asked if we should hold off on these youngsters until they matured in their understanding of the faith so that we would not place responsibilities on them for practicing their faith – no, it was not the thing to do he said; we had to ‘move them along’ – I told him that I felt we were selling our faith cheaply…I have since learned that this is the same in many Parishes…no wonder we have uninformed Catholics. It’s really sad…we do have many wonderful groups of youngsters who really have studied their faith and live it with fervor..so there is hope.

That would have been difficult Margaret as there were tens of thousands present and not every Priest would recognize those who were standing against the Church and her teachings. But Pope Francis himself did not distribute the Eucharist so they were unable to say they had received Holy Communion at the hands of the Pope…

It’s not simply a matter of having an ‘opinion’ or of ‘believing’ that abortion is not a grave sin, it is acting in according with those opinions and beliefs and doing so publicly and aggressively. Pelosi has stated that the Church and the Bishops are old fashioned and that she knows better…and because she receives no consequences, many believe her. But there is something that needs to be said regarding Nancy Pelosi…when asked why she supported and advocated for abortion and continued to receive Communion she said that the Church hadn’t been clear about her teachings in this regard for years (she was publicly taken to task for this misrepresentation of Church teachings)…but she then said that as far as receiving the Eucharist, the Bishops were divided and then, in a very soft voice said that if she had been told not to receive Holy Communion, she would have been devastated…so, there is a good chance that the ‘devastation’ would have led to conversion of heart…but since she is led to believe she is in good standing with the Church, that conversion may never happen…we need to pray for her and Joe Biden and for Church leaders that they be clear on this for the souls that are in such grave danger and for those innocent unborn babies whose lives are in constant danger of being snuffed out…

It’s important to act out of love – nothing here to smile about or be sarcastic about…

NYCFiredog

Jesus said THREE TIMES. “FEED MY SHEEP”. WHERE are the Shepherds? Our lambs are being led to the slaughter, and they are SILENT. WHO WILL TEACH THEM? And we wonder at the state of the Church. Don’t give up. I was one of those kids you spoke about. And it wasn’t a Priest that brought me back, OR the Hierarchy of the Church.

MJ

RE: St Louis’ former Archbishop

During the 2004 presidential election, Archbishop Raymond Burke publicly stated that John Kerry and other Catholic politicians who publicly support legalized abortion should not be given or receive the Eucharist.[37] This statement was based mainly on two canons of Catholic Canon Law, which state that ministers of Holy Communion should not administer the Eucharist to people who obstinately persist in manifest grave sin[38] and that those who are conscious of being in a state of grave sin (as determined by Catholic doctrine) should not receive the Eucharist.[39]Burke had articulated the same position while he was in La Crosse, but the statements he made as Archbishop of St. Louis gained more notice and added to his reputation for being canonically consistent. He is one of a number of bishops who have declared that they would refuse Communion to such politicians. He added that Catholic voters who supported pro-choice candidates specifically because they supported abortion rights were committing grave sin and should not receive Communion without first having their sin absolved through the Sacrament of Penance.[citation needed]Burke later clarified his position, stating that one could vote for a pro-choice politician and not commit a mortal sin, if one believed there was a more significant moral issue than abortion at hand, but he also stated that he could not think of any sort of issue that would qualify.

alanaforsyth

WITH impunity, not WITHOUT impunity.

Stellahermit

No matter. It says in Scripture that anyone who sins against the Holy Spirit is condeming himself. Biden, Pelosi and all those other “catholics” in name only have already excommunicated themselves cause they publically and blatntly flaunt their disobedience and disregard for the Church’s teaching about life and the taking of life, especially in the womb. They do not have to answer to us for their actions. They answer to God on the day of Judgment.

sue gonzalez

I had the very same experience teaching the First Communion classes. The response of your pastor was the same as our Director of Religious Ed. I taught the classes for my 2 sons and then I stopped. I couldn’t continue to had out cutesie art projects that had a cross or a dove in them and pass that off as Religious Ed.

sue gonzalez

hand out

Church Militant

As long as this continues, the Church appears weak, allowing the Faithful to believe that the words of Pelosi and Biden are accepted by the Church.
If the Church cannot get its act together, how can the faithful who are not faithful.

Radiating!

All of this confusion lies at the feet of the weak kneed bishops. God have mercy on their poor souls. But additionally, it has ramifications that spill all over the Faithful. It creates an elitist aura around the “important” people, and it weakens the Faith of all of the Faithful. Tch,tch,tch!

http://www.facebook.com/beth.triem Beth Triem

I think the lay people in the parish of someone thay know is publicly for abortion should kindly but publicly tell them that tey should not recieve because it hurts Christ so much.

AZNativeGrandma

I read that the purpose of shepherds, crozier, is to BEAT OFF THE WOLVES. It’s time for the shepherds of our church to do their job!!!!

think about it

What, do you think, St. John Vianney would do? Padre Pio? Fulton Sheen?

This is the standard to which we should hold our living priests.

Jane

I think the words pro death are better than pro abortion because pro abortion doesn’t pack the same punch with some people anymore.

MaryAngela

Perhaps the politicians should look into their own consciences and abstained and continue to abstain; we may not agree with their pro abortion etc stand but we could at least have given them some credit for recognizing that they are not in full communion with the Holy Mother Church.

Thomas Murray

Matthew 10:22 tells us all we need to know about how standing up and following Christ will lead to unpleasantness. When it comes to facing these so-called Catholics in their apostasy, ‘Be not afraid’ to deny them eucharist until they repent.

Laura

Sorry but you are so wrong.

Laura

The I’m “personally oposed, but…” types need to get a life. They had and have a CHOICE! They are not the only people who can be in office. Anybody could take their place! It is simply an excuse, so that they can bask in the monetary & ego-related rewards they receive by being in their positions. It is sheer disgust I feel right now for the spineless priests & lay personnel that we have. And, for this to happen at the Vatican is outrageous. Pope Francis got around this by not giving communion himeself, but as far as I’m concerned, and similar like-minded staunch Catholics, he will need to take a FIRM STAND and renounce those who gave these disrespsectful politicians communion. That means that Cardinal Wuerl better change his tune, too, because he said on EWTN that he gives communion to these people!

Maybe, I shouldn’t be a Catholic anymore, if we can’t start standing up to things like this. I’m waiting for Pope Francis to do something about this. I’m TRULY fed up!

Laura

Great idea!

MrsSpooky

There was no sarcasm involved. I really wanted to know. He was smiling because we CAN protect the Eucharist (and the very public sinner who is willing to commit sacrilege by receiving unworthily). Plus I think he liked the suggesting that she go to confession – which would be delivered in the most charitable of manners. Don’t want to be rude or cruel, but that’s the Body of Christ that she’d be profaning. It’s not like she was a private individual who is pro abortion, or works to keep it legal, she’s a lawmaker and makes many public statements.

Gracie

God gave us all free will. Pelosi & Biden know full well what the church’s stand is and will answer to God for their poor judgement and willful disobedience.

gambler

I am a great sinner, and no doubt am not worthy to take communion on most Sundays. Nevertheless, and fully understanding that I am judging another, I find it troubling that politicians (and others, like in academia, media, ert) assume that they are exempt from certain rules simply because they have a diverse constituency or a diverse following. However, what if the Bidens and Pelosi’s personally found pornograhy sinful and distateful, but still worked to enact legislation that allowed for the individual freedom to access it? Would that be wrong? This is not an easy decision for the clergy IMHO; and the times, they are a’changing even though the immutable truths of the church are not. Does anone know BTW how far hipocrisy and sin in politics goes back? Pretty far, I am guessing, just like in most fields.

Luis

I don’t understand this…God does not force anyone to love Him..or to obey His commandments. These politicians know that they are doing wrong. The priests or bishops aren’t actually saying..”look I know that you are committing this evil thing..but I’m going to allow you to receive Holy Communion..so you won’t look bad in front of everyone.” So if these pro-abortion and pro.gay marriage -politicians continue their ways they are working their way to hell…they refuse to listen to Jesus ..so they will perish.

Peter Burke Jr.

Its time for some real backbone by a real Pope and tell all ,If you are pro choice and pro gay and so on ,please find another church ,You and your mind set are not welcome in the Catholic Church…

Danielck

Can he or she that is not open to receiving the graces of God receive
the graces of God in Holy Communion? Obviously these two are not open
to receiving the Truth. How then can they receive the good that God
gives?

bodean

I am abit perplexed in regard to the politicians who are pro choice and for redefinition of marriage, etc. I heard that if a young woman has an abortion, she has to have permission from the Bishop to receive communion and that she can be excommunicated. How is it that Pelosi and Biden and other Catholics can support abortion and support gay marriage are allowed to receive? Seems like a double standard.
God can definitely take care of himself, but what is wrong with standing up for what is right?
I remember when Clinton received communion, he was not Catholic and very pro choice and yet he was able to receive. Seems wrong to me. Catholics who cannot receive because of re-marriage without annulment, etcl, but someone like Clinton who is not even Catholic?
Help me to understand why the Holy Father has not condemned this stuff?

Laura

Why would anyone support these people who do not even follow the faith they profess? Obviously poor decision makers.

Laura

When I was confirmed it was made VERY CLEAR to the class that we were becoming soldiers for Christ. I’ve taught confirmation prep classed before, If the students are in the state you mention, they are not confirming anything. SAD!

John

While I agree that they need to be denied Communion I also feel it is most important that the denial is out of love and concern, not anger and spite. I struggle with that myself. I am concerned that I will be “happy” when they get publicly reprimanded. May God give me the grace I need to overcome this.

Ted

I cannot wait for the Holy Father to begin to act and take on those Catholics who are shameful examples. I also hope & pray the Bishops follow suit. Go Francis Go!

Laura

Two churches in my immediate area are run currently by Polish priest and another church nearby has a Polish priest. One seemed aghast as the lack of knowledge and faith of US Catholics. A visiting priest from India actually stated that the situation in this country is sad. Back home, he said groups from his church were prayer healers that poor Muslims and Hindus came to for healing. Remember Jesus told us we would do greater things that he had done: heal the sick, raise the dead, drive out demons. How many of you believe this? How many of our bishops? A protestant friend of mine, said that a few times, priests would go to the abortion clinic with the Blessed Sacrament and when there no abortions took place. He wanted to know why there was not always someone with the Blessed Sacrament there. He said it obviously works. How many believe in such things?

Ted

If this keeps up the future will be very very dire as God will not be mocked. If you want a potential glimpse of what will possibly happen based on approved apparitions and a recently Canonized Saint who was declared a Doctor of the church – Google The approved apparitions in Akita Japan and St. Hildegard Van Bingen and her prophesies regarding the end times and a great comet that will literally wipe out 2/3 of humanity.

Laura

Good for you Sue! I taught multiple grades of rel. education for years. The Rel Ed director told me I couldn’t teach the rosary, that I shouldn’t mention novenas, and I shouldn’t mention other pious devotions (Sacred Heart, Miraculous Medal, etc.) I did it anyhow. Who is she to tell me that I couldn’t teach the Catholic faith. One year I taught the first year of a two year confirmation prep class, and found out a goodly percentage of my students couldn’t name 3 people from the old testament or 3 people from the new testament. Only my two daughters and 2 other students knew who Moses was. How can they understand what’s going on in a church at Mass if all they do is color and do projects and not even on important people in the Bible. I did more than that when I had a class of four year olds.

Laura

I don’t think she’d led to believe that. She’s pushed the envelope against the Catholic Church who is led by some weak leaders. Praying for our bishops to take the right stand might save more souls. Heck, getting people to pray more would be a great accomplishment.

Jane Yavis

Read these messages and know why Catholicism in America is not taken seriously. No one died and left these angry people in charge. Pope Francis knows that.

Jane Yavis

Welcome Pope Francis,,,,, we Love you

When you hear from the Pope, about Faith Love and Hope – that’s Amore
Francis says come along,,,,, Weak are helped by the strong, that’s called LOVE

When he asks for our prayers,,,,,not only just for OUR cares, that’s Amore

Scuse a Me – Soon we’ll See,,,, from a Rome Italy — more Amore!!!!!

(Certainly lacking from the posts of these Catholics, might I add.

laura

I don’t think you should say anything. In fact, when I received training, I think we were instructed as such. The person (esp Pelosi) would get the idea. She has to know she’s wrong. She may be able to get away with it on earth, but there’s an awful payback if she doesn’t change. But just as politicians are assessories to murder for abortions they push, what about our priests and bishops who allow such sacrilege. They carry a heavy responsibility for there parishoners. Pray more for our priests and bishops.

Laura

And people were running down O’Reilly when as a good Catholic he should be keeping his exwife from receiving for her own protection. I think he still cares at least at some level.

Laura

And doesn’t that make the priests and/or bishops partly to blame for letting them believe wrongly. Prophecies all predict this decay of the clergy.

Linda Maloy

I couldn’t agree more with the gentleman who said the best idea would be to abolish the Bishop’s Conferences. All they have done, so far as I can tell, is cause trouble, run scared, and taken NO meaningful stances! They are afraid of their own shadows. I pray our new pope, His Holiness Francis I, will blast them out of existence. They ignore each and every bit of canon law, nay, the words of Christ Himself, when they give out Holy Communion to people like Pelosi and Biden, who are not confused or anything else but arrogant, self-absorbed jerks! (I had much more descriptive words, but they wouldn’t fly on this forum). God Bless Pope Francis I!!!!

http://www.facebook.com/bev.diemler Bev Diemler

Dear Brothers and Sisters in Christ, Our Lord Jesus knew what was in Judas’ heart at the Last Supper, and He did not deny him. You all know what happened to Judas. Trust in the Lord. He will take care of them. He did say…. “Take this, ALL OF YOU, and eat of it. He did not say… “Take this, you who are holy and eat of it”. Of course, none of us are good enough. Just trust He knows what He’s doing and it is not for us to judge. Bless you all.

Norm

Didn’t Jesus share His Body and Blood with Judas at the Last Supper, Jesus knew what Judas was about to do. If Jesus offered himself to Judas up until the last minute who are we to judge our brothers and sisters least we be judged.

http://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=1153037667 Isabel Kilian

I do not believe the Mercy of God will reach them, ever.

http://www.facebook.com/bev.diemler Bev Diemler

They can’t. just like confirmation students that aren’t ready to receive the full graces. They will receive them later at a Confession or whenever and where ever they are ready. Just like the graces received at Marriage when one is not ready. They are “saved up” for a time, perhaps reconciliation, when one is truly ready. It’s true.

carmlrose

Why don’t you start a petition to our Holy Father to do something about this matter ! He needs to hear it from the people who are here in the states.

lizzytaylorburton

I think Pelosi and Biden are lying because if they received communion with millions of people around there would be a picture of it. Somone would have snapped a picture with an iphone or whatever, there would be a lot of pictures. They are lying again to the American people otherwise someone would have a picture of it. Talk about snakes and liars, this is the limit!!!!

petitefleur921

Since we have a constitutional mandate to separate church and state in the U.S., it would be grand if these “representatives” (funny I don’t recall ever voting on abortion…does anyone?) would have the decency not to “flaunt” their “religion” in what can only be a political statement and photo op…in other words they should excuse themselves from public reception of The Blessed Sacrament, so as not to place religion in the context of their politics and vice-versa.
Since these egomaniacs don’t have that integrity, it would be nice to see our bishops at the very least offer this suggestion in a public letter of guidance to these “members of the flock.” Unfortunately, the lack of integrity on the part of our politicians is exceeded only by the lack of courage on the part of U.S. Church leadership.
“Go forth and spread the Good News” What Good News did these hypocrites spread before the eyes of the entire world? That not only do we murder our children in this country by the millions, but we allow these killers to prance around the Vatican like big shots? Reminds me of Nero playing his fiddle…and those lighted torches are the innocent martyrs of children who will never see the light of day.
I hope the new Pope will confront this…but political correctness is the new rule of law in the U.S. and I doubt anyone can touch the tip of the iceberg here. I was astounded to hear an African American sister, a vice-president of ministry at a Catholic medical school rejoice at the election of Obama…not because of his race…because he is so viciously pro-abortion. She is convinced these children are better off dead than to live in the squalor of the ghettos. So, there is the new Church. Our Lord’s Sacred heart must be weeping and breaking all over again.
p.s. Sorry to go on, but in real terms there is no separation of church and state here. As long as churches do not pay taxes, in real terms they are subsidized by the government. This favored status leads to massive corruption, with one hand washing the other, particularly in the legal system where bishops and judges are notoriously lining each others’ pockets…one with votes…the other with aiding in the cover up of and failure to prosecute in the criminal abuse of thousands and thousands of innocent children.
I’m so sick of it…I can barely stand to go into a Catholic church anymore. And I’m a Catholic lay chaplain…I’ve seen to many Catholics go to their grave unable to reconcile with a Church that has abandoned and betrayed them and this separates them from their faith in God when they need it most…absolute evil. Then the Church has the audacity to tell us to “come home”? OH PLEASE…who left whom?

Laura

A blessing tactfully done is all that is necessary!

Laura

What is you said is NOT Catholic teaching. You need to read the Catechism, if you are Catholic. The Church makes it very clear that receiving communion without being in the state of grace….is a grave sin. Allowing sacrilegious people to receive holy communion is a scandal and greatly blasphemes our Lord. It’s true HE is our judge, but he gives us scripture, our Popes, and canon law as our guides through these pagan times.

Laura

Well, I doubt Judas believed in men sleeping with men, or killing unborn babies either, but Pelosi & Biden do.

Laura

I thought the same, because I never saw one photo and not one video clip. I did read an article that mentioned Biden & Pelosi’s “offices” confirmed it. Well, don’t think we can trust them…still if they did it, I cannot believe Pope Francis wouldn’t have had a talk with those priests that were assigned to give communion in the seating area where the dignitaries were, I can’t believe they wouldn’t know EXACTLY where they were seated and could have easily just given a simple blessing, no big deal.

Susan

They just have NO FEAR of GOD.

Chris Rocks

The church needs to develop a backbone in regards to this issue. Who or what are we afraid of. We should be less worried about offending and more worried about defending. Defending life and the sacrament of marriage between a man and a woman. This is not a popularity contest. As for the priests who say they do no want to politicize the Eucharist; that is a weak and cowardly excuse. They should be more worried about protecting the sanctity of the Eucharist. It is time for priests to set the example from the pulpit to the line for communion. That is their job. Start now! It’s not too late.

Keith

How fast do you think Biden and Pelosi would put a bill before Congress and Senate to revoke the billions of dollars the U.S. Guvment gives to Catholic Social Services if they had been denied communion..??? Anyone think they wouldn’t?? Just to prove a point? Do you think any bishop would have the guts to be the one responsible for the Catholic church to lose out on all that money?? The phrase “Robbing Peter to pay Paul” was invented for a reason….

Keith

The real meaning of what Arch Bishop Chaput’s definition of “complexity” can be found in paragraph two of the provided link. He’s right… most Catholics have NO IDEA the amount of money the the Federal and State governments give to the church and their services. To excommunicate any politician is to slit the very church’s throat. So unless any of us all want to take up the slack, and make up for these funds with money none of us has in our own pockets thanks to this very government….. you’re just going to have to put up with pro abortionists as Catholics…. Game over….. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Catholic_Charities_USA

stirenaeus

The scandal is on the part of the bishops, who tacitly endorse sacrilegious reception of the Blessed Sacrament.

Online72

Whether we see it here on this earth by their actions they are ALREADY excommunicated. Our Lord will say to them, “I do not know you.”

I actually believe by not calling out these people for their evil actions that we are actually putting their souls at greater risk. If they were to be called out maybe then they would evaluate what they are being told and repent.

MrsSpooky

You could be right about not saying anything. Thankfully I have not been put in that position. I don’t know, what do you suggest? Just give her the host or not give it to her and say nothing? She’s already been told she shouldn’t be receiving Communion but she does it anyway.

Cindy

Funny, I have seen many people denied communion for various reasons in our church. Maybe it has more to do with how deep your pockets are.

Bill Jacobs

Good article. Related to this, I suggest that we not use their terminology, “pro-choice.” What kind of choice are we talking about? Is it which color socks to wear, or what we’re going to have for dinner? No, we’re specifically talking about abortion and death. We would be better off using the opposite of “pro-life”, which is “pro-death”, or the opposite of “anti-abortion”, which is “pro-abortion.” Yes, it sounds horrible to say “pro-death”… because it IS horrible. Let’s call it what it is. Pro-life people should stop using their white-washed term, pro-choice. We either believe in securing inalienable rights, first among these is the right to life, or we don’t.

David in Colorado

Keith, you are correct. “For where your treasure is, there your heart be also” LK 12:34. Pope Emeritus Benedict XVI said that the Church will become smaller. I’m afraid he is right. I won’t give money to Catholic Charities or the USCCB’s annual appeal due to corruption, support of organizations that in turn support abortion and so-called “gay marriage”, and even organizations that teach girls how to be good prostitutes and avoid drug busts. I hope that with His Holiness Pope Francis, that with his apparent “simplicity”, he will truly “clean house”. Faithful Catholics will need to press on, and pray for the conversion of souls.

David in Colorado

My confirmation teacher taught us right out of the old Baltimore Catechism, and this was in 1984. It was incredible how much I learned in one year with her that I didn’t learn in six years of 70’s -style “CCD” (cutsie art) classes. She saved my spiritual life, and God will bless her for that one day!

Poppiexno

Thank God for priests like Fr Orsi! We need more like him and I hope he isn’t censured by his bishop.
You have to give credit to The Son of Lies for picking Biden and Pelosi to represent the US. He knew exactly what he was doing. He was picking prominent “Catholics” who represented his views. The spineless bishops fail to take action because they “don’t want to offend” or because the want to be “pastoral.” Hogwash! They are worried about federal reprisal. They and their staff are also to a large extent liberal in their philosophy. The bishops’ failure to act forecefully and publicly is scandelous
I am frankly astonished that they had the temerity to ask the faithful to pray for religious liberty in the face of the HHS mandate re insurance coverage for abortion and contraceptives.

http://www.facebook.com/lindy.ill Lindy Ill

@Danieck: Not only are they NOT receiving the graces of Holy Communion, they are crucifying Christ all over again! They are receiving sacreligious communions! They “are guilty of the Body and Blood of Christ and eat and drink condemnation unto themselves”!!

Poppiexno

There is no Constitutional mandae to separate church (religion) and state. This belief is a distortion of fact foisted on the public by liberals. The writers of the the first amendment meant to protect the free expression of religion from the state, not thre other way around. They were concerned about the federal government establishing and demanding support of one sect (as was the case in England). In fact, some of the states did have an established, state supported sect.
Based on a letter by Thomas Jefferson in which he mentions a “wall between church and state” liberal courts have turned the first amendment upside down. Now, the state is to be protected from religion. It is supremely ironic that Jefferson clearly meant the opposite. He meant his “wall” was to protect religion.
i share your frustration. Abuse of children should NEVER occur; and it is especially egregious when done by priests or when guilty priests are protected from the law, both secular and cannon. But, I do not believe it was “thousands and thousands.” Not making excuses but the incident rate is comparable to the rate of abuse in non-Catholic institutions. Of course the rate should be zero!! We Catholics, and especially the clergy, are called upon to be the light of the world.

petitefleur921

Thanks for your reply. I agree there is much confusion, and ongoing debate regarding the principle of “separation of church and state.” However, it is fairly well agreed that Jesfferson was not trying to “protect religion” but the freedom of religious practice. I believe these are different as one refers to organizations and the other to one’s individual faith. Jefferson himself did not adhere to a particular “religion” and considered himself having a personal relationship with God apart from an organized belief system. The point is that, given the exemption of taxes, in real terms the constitution has been interprested as mandating this separation in a financial way that provides church’s with a favored status and enables both corruption and exemotion form regulatory controls regarding ethical and/or criminal behavior. Therefore, for decades, priests were neither tried nor sentanced in criminal court. It was left to the bishop’s discretion to handle these matters…hence the further abuse of those who attempted to come forward…including parents of young children, as I have witnessed. This has a trickle effect that is impossible to measure. For example, one abusive lay teacher in my childrens’ school was so horrific toward the kindergarteners in her care that neary one thousand parishoners, that’s nearly half of the parish families, petitioned the bishop to remove her. There was no investigation and no response as she was well aware that the pastor was carrying on a long-term affair with one of the other teachers.
So…there you go. Endless corruption and abuse of the power, authority and trust of innocent people just trying to live their beliefs and raise their children as Catholics.
As for the number of children abused in this country alone. so far $3 BILLION in damages have been paid. that represents only the past couple of decades, those who were able to come forwad and to be heard, assuming they had the money to hire an attorney and wiling to face the public disgrace with which they were threatened.
The USCCB itself estimates 25, 000 children since the 1950’s and most outside statistics plac eit closer to 100,000.
That is just since the 1950’s and only in this country. If the number of cases among my own relatives in both my own and my husband’s large, Catholic families as extrapolated, the 100,000 figure seems less than one would expect.
We will never know how many innocent lives have been ruined by no only these criminal predators but the criminal bishops who protected them. I guess I should have kept my own statistics over the years as a chaplain to provide some sense of how many Catholics die separated from their church and from God because of this atrocity. Those are numbers…and cases only God himself will know and judge. I understand how they feel. I live with similar inner conflict and minister with it every day, enough to sometimes make me sick. Not only based on the experiences of those I know and love but the tens of thousands to whom I have ministered in the past twenty years.
I believe this is a serious point in considering the lack of courage on the part of our bishops to take a strong stand where these Catholic politicians are concerned. They know very well their authority has been undermined by these abuses and the moment they speak out, they will be accused of being hypocrites. That is the way of the enemy. It is also a wonderful opportunity for the bishops to exemplify humility and take that stand anyway…but they have not so far. Too many skeletons in their own closets methinks.
No point in accusing our politicians of being evil, lying hypocrites without first admitting that so many of our own “politicians” of the church have been the same. Maybe then people would listen to them and they could build some credibility back. Even the “come back home” motto, as mentioned is a sly way of placing the blame on the parishoners for the mass exodus from the Church. I, for one, don’t ever again want to go to Mass and have a letter about this disgusting situation written by the Cardinal read out in the middle of worship. Nor do I want to hear another homily address it or have one more priest drive people out of Mass by accusing “all of us of being sinners” on the day our bishop leaves in disgrace. THEY created this evil and should handle it without further traumatizing those who are still giving it their best effort to continue on as practicing Catholics.

NYCFiredog

I ABSOLUTELY BELIEVE THIS.

NYCFiredog

Was the Rel Ed director a Priest?

Danielck

thank you.

ANNE_JMJ

The 1983 Code of Canon Law is part of the Apostolic Constitution, and the formal Papal statement can be found on the Vatican web site under: ” APOSTOLIC CONSTITUTION
SACRAE DISCIPLINAE LEGES OF THE SUPREME PONTIFF POPE JOHN PAUL II
FOR THE PROMULGATION OF THE NEW CODE OF CANON LAW “.
Aiding and Abetting – Sacrilege, Scandal, Heresy, or Schism which additionally promotes relativism will be answerable to God. (I wouldn’t want to be that Bishop’s shoes on his judgement day.)
Code 915, and 1399 (which is overlooked too often regarding excommunication and scandal) – are requirements, not maybes.
CCC: ” 1868 – ……Moreover, we have a responsibility for the sins committed by others when we cooperate in them: …….by not disclosing or not hindering them when we have an obligation to do so.’
Btw – excommunication can be lifted if the person repents, trys not to commit the sin again, and makes public reparation for his scandal. (Not getting a Catholic funeral is no excuse for any Bishop or Priest, since the person has a free will. Those who wish to continue to be obstinate in heresy and scandal for the rest of their lives – make their own choice.)

ANNE_JMJ

This is true.
But by not enforcing Canon 915 and/or 1399 – – many additional Souls are lost through confusion and bad example.
Scandal is a Mortal Sin – CCC 2284, 2285, 2286. Bishops, Priests and Laity must do what they can to stop scandal.

ANNE_JMJ

Aiding and abetting in someone else’s mortal sin – makes us also responsible for their sin. CCC – # 1868 – “…by not disclosing or not hindering them when we have an obligation to do so”.
Bishops and Priests have the primary responsbility to enforce the required Canon 915 or Canon 1399.
Everyone including Laity has the responsibility to report abuses to the appropriate Priest or Diocese Bishop – Canon 212 #3.
God will certainly judge each of us for our own sins; but I don’t need to add the sins of others to my list.
We must all stand against the mortal sins of SACRILEGE, HERESY, SCHISM, SCANDAL – involving abortion, same-sex marriage, euthanasia, etc., etc, – – – -

ANNE_JMJ

By administering Communion to Judas, Jesus would have been “acting in anticipatory obedience to the 1983 Code” because the Communion prohibition applies only to public sinners, and not to those whose sins are still hidden, such as in the case of Judas’s betrayal.
Please read – the Code of Canon Law 915 and 1399 apply only to PUBLIC SINNERS causing SCANDAL.
Only Jesus knew what was in the heart of Judas at the last Supper.
Also, please read 1 Cor 5:11-13.

Electra

From a devil’s advocate position, I would suggest that if such a measure were taken against Biden and Pelosi, it should come after the excommunication of all the bishops who covered up for pederast priests and, of course, the pederast priests themselves and anybody else involved in this type of crime.

Alfred Caulkin

why stop at biden and pelosi? maybe the pope should place the whole country under interdict until we ban abortion.
that’s right, that means you…

Alfred Caulkin

when the coin goes into the box, the soul flies out of hell.

Michelle Marie Allen

Your suggestion is absolutely absurd ! Do you REALLY believe that Pope Francis I would do such a thing ?
If this is your attempt to sneer and mock ALL faithful Catholics in the USA, you fail miserably.

http://www.facebook.com/barry.sullivan.3388 Barry Sullivan

So because some bishops covered up for pedophile priests the Church should stop doing its job to lead the faithful? I guess Jesus should have suspended the 10 Commandments for a time after 10 of His 11 apostles denied Him during His passion? I in no way condone the actions of these bishops; in fact, they should be defrocked in my opinion. However, the actions of sinners does not abrogate the instructions the Lord gave to Peter and the apostles which was, and is to lead the Church

http://www.facebook.com/barry.sullivan.3388 Barry Sullivan

In my 54 years I have never seen anyone denied Communion. Could you provide a specific example?

Electra

Barry, do not, repeat not, jump to conclusions. Read my post carefully. i did not insinuate what you think I did.

http://www.facebook.com/barry.sullivan.3388 Barry Sullivan

Not only are we helping these politicians lose their souls but also causing many of the less prominent faithful (non-public figures) to choose the same sinful course because “everyone else is doing it with no consequences so why can’t I?”

http://www.facebook.com/barry.sullivan.3388 Barry Sullivan

So since we are getting our “30 pieces of silver ” we should sell out the Truth? Judas did that 2,000 years ago and how did that turnout for him? Our Lord said testify to the Truth and He would be with us always. He didn’t say build big government funded networks to take care of the poor. In fact, the Bible calls for the Church to take care of the poor and never mentions government funding.

Cindy

I have seen a man that was a bit tipsy refused right in front of me in the line. I have seen another man refused also. He had his hands ready to receive the Eucharist and our priest shook his head and blessed him on his forehead instead.

Alfred Caulkin

i’m quite serious. since it is a question of national law, rather than personal choice, interdict would be appropriate.
also, it would stop the allegedly pro-life party from shouting about ending abortions to actually needing to doing so. the so called pro-life party held power in congress for 12 years, the presidency for 8, and has a majority of justices on the supreme court -yet abortion remains legal in the usa. interdict demands results rather than slogans and shouting.

do i think francis would do this? well, he is the unpredictable pope. we know how he feels about pro-choice politics. previous popes might have taken into consideration the very large fiscal contribution we american catholics make to the global church, but pope francis seems to be immune to the lure of monetary gain… so maybe.

it would definitely shake things up, and make the pro-life movement more goals oriented, rather than being the extension of a political party. after all this is serious stuff, life and death.

why don’t you think interdict would work?

Michelle Marie Allen

Denying faithful American Catholics the sacrament of the Holy Eucharist because of the sins of others makes no sense. Should people who have done everything in their personal power to not “glorify” abortion, secure an abortion or take the matter lightly by NOT voting against those political candidates who are in favor of this atrocity be punished as well and denied the Holy Eucharist because of the sins of others. ?

Why not just interdict the whole RC …all over the world ? Is that the angle you are hinting at between your lines ?

You talk about “shaking things up”. Your suggestion is politically motivated itself. I believe that you are only interested in “shutting down” the RC in the USA. You sound anti-Catholic to me.

In Nazi Germany, if one concentration camp prisoner was accused of a “petty” crime like the stealing of bread for example, the Nazis would take 9 other innocent prisoners as well. St. Maximilian Kolbe’s story is testimony to such cruel punishment.It is with sad irony that I used the analogy of theft of bread.

Are you implying that Pope Francis I would/should do that as well ?

I believe that he would not do that with all of my heart.

Alfred Caulkin

the sin is of the country, since we have an immoral law. the political leaders who promise to end the immoral law never seem to get around to it.
interdict would force pro-life politicians to be judged by their actions rather than their promises. interdict would get results fast.

your suggestion that my catholicism is somehow deficient is insulting and ill founded. may i recomend that you stop looking for the splinter in my eye, and remove the beam from your eye? you’ve managed to turn a discussion into an argument. very well done!

also, interdict would also ban all sacraments not just the Eucharist -except in cases where people were near death.

Michelle Marie Allen

I am sorry that you feel that I that I have insulted you by stating that your rhetoric is anti-Catholic since I disagree with your radical position on the subject of interdict for ALL of the Catholic faithful in America in this discussion. You should look up the definition of argument. Yes, I don’t agree with your idea and bringing up my reasons for doing so makes me your opponent in this debate.

Your solution to the crisis of abortion by suggestioning that Pope Francis I place interdict on the American faithful Catholics gives Satan just what he wants… no more Holy Eucharist to be given to the faithful. The very essence of our Faith IS the receiving of the Most Holy Eucharist.

Again I ask…why just American Roman Catholics ? Other countries have immoral laws. Let us start with the birthplace of Pope Francis I, Argentina. So by your logic, ALL countries with any Catholic population should be under the same interdict as well.

If the RCC is to maintain Her strength regarding Her stance on abortion as well as other topics which is against Her position of human morals, denying the Holy Eucharist to ALL American Roman Catholics because of the sin of the American government is not the answer. Starving faithful RC American citizens by not letting them receive the most Holy Body of Christ is abominable in thought, let alone action. Why would you want to take the Bread of Life out of the mouth of God’s hungry children? God said he wouldn’t.

“The Lord will not afflict the soul of the just with famine, and he will disappoint the deceitful practices of the wicked”. Proverbs 10:3 (Douay-Rheims translation)

Mother Church will not allow Christ Our King to become the pawn in morally corrupt governments. Instead the change that is needed in this situation you speak of this could be accomplished by not accepting anymore tax relief from the US government. Giving to the RCC would not be tax deductible. Also, the RCC should not accept anymore “blood money” from said government(s).

“And Jesus answering, said to them: Render therefore to Caesar the things that are Caesar’s, and to God the things that are God’s. And they marveled at him.” Mark 12:17 (Douay-Rheims translation)

btw… isn’t Latin such a cool language… I didn’t even know that there was a word for Hitler in Latin. But the Hebrew word Satan for Hitler is better suited.

Anita

They may be thumbing their nose at the church, by receiving Our Blessed Sacrament unworthily. But when they face Jesus at Judgement day they will receive the consequences for what they are doing now. They are both fools for risking all eternity in someplace no one wants to go to.

barbara stall

@facebook-100001197632317:disqus – Your comment is correct. I think it was Theresa Neumann of Bavaria (seer and stigmatist of the early 20th century) who wrote of receiving the Body and Blood of Christ in serious mortal sin as bringing condemnation unto themselves. That definitely applies to all Catholic politicians who advocate abortion and homosexual marriage.

http://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=1419266714 Steve Newton

I find this article more judgmental than fair. Two politicians, who have been baptized Catholic, have taken a public stand not advocating for abortion, but advocating against a change in existing law. To the best of anyone’s knowledge, neither has had an abortion. If someone holds a position contrary to that of the teaching Church, but does not act on it, what is known about the state of their soul, except by themselves and their confessor? And if their confessor knows that they have, for example, caused an abortion, whether directly or indirectly, would he not be violating the seal of the confessional by acting on that knowledge at all, much more so in a public way?

While obligated to teach the teaching of the Church, I am not responsible for someone else either adhering to it or violating it. I am not their conscience. Therefore, making statements about their conscience of sin is not anyones prerogative, except their own.

If one advocates for the death penalty, also considered an intrinsic evil by the Church, are they banned from receiving the Eucharist? Does this include bishops and priests?

We really need to be less concerned about other peoples’ consciences and more concerned about making the kingdom come by sharing the good news of salvation–not by passing public judgment on people whose interior life is either unknown to us or is protected by the seal of the confessional. These few paragraphs do not exhaust the subject, but do try to change the focus from judgment to evangalization.

http://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=1419266714 Steve Newton

Because…?

chronovisor

spoken like a true cafeteria catholic, how does it make one “feeeeeeel” if we are too “judgemental”

http://www.facebook.com/barry.sullivan.3388 Barry Sullivan

Steve newton says “Pelosi and Biden haven’t taken a public stand advocating for abortion just against a change in the current law.” So if they were around in Nazi Germany they would just have advocated for keeping the death camps operating as they are and not changing the current German law. Or perhaps they would have advocated for keeping the slave laws as they are and not freeing the slaves and that would have been acceptable to Mr. Newton. I guess this analysis would probeably not be acceptable to most Jews or black slaves at the time.

http://www.facebook.com/barry.sullivan.3388 Barry Sullivan

Anyone who supports abortion automatically incurs excommunication as staed in the Catechism. Pelosi and Biden should be excommunicated publicly because of their very public positions and advocacy for abortion.

http://www.facebook.com/barry.sullivan.3388 Barry Sullivan

The Supreme Court took it out of the hands of the politicians in 1973 when they overturned all state and federal laws.

http://www.facebook.com/barry.sullivan.3388 Barry Sullivan

I am unaware of any bishops or priests in the pedophile priest problem and coverup who continue to advocate for pedophilia as in concert with Catholic teaching. Pelosi and Biden continue to advocate for abortion and claim it is in concert with catholic teaching and that is why they should be excommunicated. Excommunication is reserved for those who publicly continue in a serious sin which brings scandal to and misleads the Faithful.

http://www.facebook.com/barry.sullivan.3388 Barry Sullivan

If someone appears drunk (which even you saw this) then he should be denied Communion This does not mean he should be excommunicated. As far as the other example that is between the priest and communicant so I cannot comment on why the priest did it.

Electra

Not a very sensitive thinker, are you, Barry? Would you kindly give me proof that Pelosi and Biden “advocated” abortion? And please look up the meanng of the verb “to advocate” before you do.

Electra

As I said before, look up the verb “to advocate” and give me evidence that Biden and Pelosi have “advocated” abortion.

Electra

Oh, phooey. JP II aided and abetted, covered up for the pederast and depraved priest Marcel Maciel and a few others. How he got beatified is a travesty.

Alfred Caulkin

so, then, abortion is out of the hands of biden and pelosi? then, shouldn’t the bishops refuse communion to roberts, scalia, alito, thomas, and sotomayor?

http://www.facebook.com/barry.sullivan.3388 Barry Sullivan

I believe publicly campaigning for unrestricted abortion laws over the last few decades and supporting hundreds of millions in funding for Planned Parenthood to perform abortions qualifies in everyone’s lexicon as advocating for abortion. Call their offices and they will tell you they support legal, government paid for abortions through all nine months of pregnancy. This is also in the democratic platform and the dems are proud of it.

http://www.facebook.com/barry.sullivan.3388 Barry Sullivan

The supreme court decision was made in 1973 so none of the judges above were part of the court then. Biden and Pelosi have supported funding for abortion throughout their careers and voted against every law which would try to restrict it in anyway. Call their offices and they will tell you they support abortion through all nine months of pregancy and government funding for same.

http://www.facebook.com/barry.sullivan.3388 Barry Sullivan

The supreme court negated all the state laws and until the composition of the court changes they will continue to do so.

Electra

You saying this, Barry, is not evidence. Try again.

Electra

Barry, I respect your opinions, but not when they are based on a misinterpretation or distortion or falsification of the facts. Here you can find that both Pelosi and BIden’s statements and actions re abortion are very distant from what you allege.

ok, yes, admittedly biden and pelosi are wrong.
they are easy targets and complaining about giving them communion hasn’t exactly produced the results we’d like. perhaps pressure should be also placed on others besides the most extreme.

what about politicians who call themselves pro-life but pass no legislation to ban abortion? who never introduce such legislation?

also, the current catholic majority on the supreme court could hear cases that would overturn roe v wade. why do we not demand adherence to catholic teaching from them?

what is the concrete difference between saying your personally opposed to abortion, but want it legal, and saying you oppose all abortion and yet keep it legal?

so, why not judge them by their works?

Electra

Fr. Orsi’s column is again proof that the Catholic Church cannot accept the principles upon which a democraticv state is based. I remember that in France, when freedom of the press was an issue, several centuries ago, the French hierarchy, headed by cardinal Louis Jacques Maurice de Bonald, vehemently condemned freedom of the press.

http://www.facebook.com/barry.sullivan.3388 Barry Sullivan

The Catholic Church has never claimed it was based on democratic principles. Jesus never told his disciples to take a vote on the 10 Commandments or any moral teachings that He gave them. If you want a church based on democracy you should join one of the protestant churches who continually change their positions based on what their adherents want the positions to be. For example, gay marriage was never allowed in any protestant churches until around 20 years ago and now many of them do accept it. The acceptance of abortion has also risen significantly over the last 20-30 years among many, not all, protestant churches. No where in the Gospels or any other Biblical book are votes taken on what the Church should teach on faith and morals.the Acts of the Apostles

http://www.facebook.com/barry.sullivan.3388 Barry Sullivan

If you really don’t believe that Pelosi and Biden advocate for abortion by their insistence that no restrictions be placed on it then there is nothing I can say to change your mind. Again, call their offices and ask what legal restrictions they would introduce and support in Congress.

http://www.facebook.com/barry.sullivan.3388 Barry Sullivan

To not take a stand against these politicians because they will cut off the funding to the Catholic Social Services brings to mind the “Taking the 30 pieces of silver to sell out the Truth.” This didn’t work out so well for Judas and I don’t think it is working out so well for the Church.

http://www.facebook.com/barry.sullivan.3388 Barry Sullivan

Nancy Pelosi has taken anti-Catholic stands her entire career and I don’t believe she will ever change just as Ted Kennedy did not publicly change his stand on abortion before his death. (Note I don’t know what he did privately so I am not judging his soul here.) I still agree with you th3e bishops should have taken tougher stands with folks like Pelosi but even Jesus warned us that some would not listen just as they didn’t listen to Him. Regardless of the expected outcome of our testifying to the truth we are required by Him to testify at all times and leave the results to Him.

Electra

Barry, are you deliberately pretending to have missed the point I made? Methinks, yes.

Electra

I keep on pointing out, Barry, that you are not telling the truth. Why do you have to lie about Biden and Pelosi’s stands?

http://www.facebook.com/people/James-Henning/1593607782 James Henning

I am under the impression that Judas had left before Our Lord broke bread and said the Words of Consecration

http://www.facebook.com/people/James-Henning/1593607782 James Henning

Remember what happened in Mexico in the 1930’s

J

Ah,there we go. Now I know your true colors after reading your misinformed comments. Go take your biases elsewhere when talking about the Catechism, please. Your ability to pick and choose to support a point of view instead of 2000+ years of history is remarkable.

Roger

The pot and the kettle analogy was made for you.

Roger

That does not mean we should give up trying to reach them.

Roger

We need to help these people, not let them do the wrong thing while we knowingly smirk at them.

Roger

“It is a pity how few politicians are hanged.” – G.K. Chesterton

The secret to being a good politician is to not worship at the altar of the political party. Which is, obviously, not possible for modern politicians.

Electra

Coudn’t you think of anything better to write? That’s a pretty lame comment.

Electra

Actually and very unfortunately, I have rather solid evidence for what I wrote about JP II. If you think it gives me pleasure to point out a tragic truth about the highest leader of my religion, a faith into which I was born, being educated in religious schools up until high school graduation, with a sister who is a nun who takes care of children with AIDS in one of the poorest cities in the world, you are very wrong. But voices have to be raised against injustice and lies so that these will not be repeated. And, I am not one to shirk my responsibility.

dan

I blame bishops who don’t deal with this directly. Their subtle footsie game with these folks makes them entirely culpable. Bishops leadership is, again, an oxymoron for most.

April 12th: what does it mean, I wonder, for all Cardinals and Bishops who allow these Catholic politicians to consider themselves as Catholics in good standing with the Church? Pelosi and Biden aggressively promote the mass murder of innocent human babies…they may not take the unborn baby in hand and kill him but they publicly order those killings – so the blood is on their hands and yet, Pelosi says she can receive communion because the Bishops are not united on this…well, the Popes are because Pope Paul VI, Pope John Paul II, Pope Benedict XVI and now Pope Francis have publicly and consistently stated that those who publicly promote abortion should not receive the Eucharist. The letter Pope Benedict wrote to our Bishops was kept from them by Cardinal McCarrick…and so the killing continues, even until the ninth month of gestation. Who will wash the blood off the hands who allowed this to continue?

Doug

I believe the day will come when there are growing limits on tax deductions for charity. Christians will continue to donate to charities for the poor, widows and orphans and the lame because Christ instructed us to do so. What governments do is give grants to the Church. The Church matches those funds with volunteers. Without state money the local charities will just do without, but they will still serve the needy the best they can with the resources they have.

AugustineThomas

It’s a devastating time for orthodox Roman Catholics to be sure.

Our hero BXVI has fallen and we have only our prayers to Christ that we’ll survive another “modern” pope.

We must have faith! Those who are speaking of leaving are just as wrong!

There have been far worse popes than Francis and the Church survived!

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