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New submitter overmoderated writes first with news of an attack on the U.S. Consulate in Libya. From the article: "The U.S. ambassador to Libya and three other embassy staff were killed in a rocket attack on their car, a Libyan official said, as they were rushed from a consular building stormed by militants denouncing a U.S.-made film insulting the Prophet Mohammad."
An anonymous reader adds: "Sean Smith, a.k.a. Vile Rat, an EVE Online CSM member, and diplomat for the GoonFleet corporation, was one of the four killed in the attack on the U.S. Consulate in Libya last night. He was 34. A fundraiser is being organized for his children by the Something Awful forums."
Update: 09/12 21:28 GMT by U L: Ozma from Something Awful mailed in a link to the memorial thread on the SA forums (including details on the memorial fund).

Extremists feed of each other. A jewish extremist makes a film ripping on Muhammad, and islamic extremists go on rampage, thereby proving jewish extremists' point to the world, serving his propaganda purposes.

Maybe we can found a new country, Extremistan, and put them all there to kill each other while the rest of the world enjoys peace and pluralism.

I don't buy that. The contents of my speech do not make me liable for the actions of others in response to that speech. It's not my problem if Muslim extremists (and even some non-extremists) are insane enough to react violently to something that offends their religious belief. They wouldn't get away with it here in the US, so don't try to excuse it elsewhere.

... and the implication is that makes Mohammed (and apparently, by association, every Muslim who ever has or ever will live) a horrible person not worthy of attention, right? That's funny.

Why, you may ask? Because it's a silly double standard - for example, it's a well known fact that Edgar Allen Poe, considered one of the greatest poets of all time, married his 13-year-old cousin less than 2 centuries ago, yet nobody calls him a(n inbred) pedophile, nor do they accuse his readership of supporting pedophilia.

Lewis Carroll wrote "Alice in Wonderland" and "Through the Looking Glass" in order to convince an 11-year-old to let him fuck her, but nobody calls Lewis Carroll a pedophile (well, almost nobody - myself being an obvious exception).

Shit, a few thousand years ago, the Greeks made a career out of fucking kids, but nobody I've ever met thinks that all Greeks are disgusting perverts.

But then some non-Muslim makes a movie portraying the Muslim prophet as a filthy child-buggerer, and all of a sudden it's proof positive that every Muslim in the world agrees with pedophilia.

So, to summarize: Real white people who like to fuck kids == no worries; Possibly imaginary prophet of one of the worlds largest religions is speculated to be a pedo == ALL MUSLIMS MUST DIE IN FIRE!!!

I guess that's not funny; It's stupid. Really, really stupid.

Note that this post should not be taken as being supportive of pedophilia; quite the opposite. Rather, it is a condemnation of bullshit double standards and the egocentric asshats who perpetuate them.

In any case, no matter how detestable the content of the film, it's just speech. The responsibility for the deaths here lies entirely on the heads of the people who meet speech with violence.

Assuming that A) Mohammed was a real person, and B) he was, by period standards, a pedophile, which was my point.

Period standards nothing. If you fuck a 9 year old you're a pedophile.

One has to wonder how "Christians" would react had someone made a movie implying that Jesus was a pedo...

It's hardly a fair comparison, as there are no sources that believers claim to be true that would imply that Jesus was a pedophile. Aisha's deflowering at the age of 9 is reported in the Hadith, which believers have to accept as true. Any follower of Islam must reconcile his pedophilia with their belief that Muhammed was a good man, a problem that does not affect Christianity.

Be careful there. There are plenty of peace loving Muslims who are not batshit crazy. Don't condemn an entire populous because a handful of murders think they are justified through the eyes of their religion. Society gets to be a pretty cold place when you judge the intent of many based on the actions of a few.

Neither Breivik nor McVeigh was a Christian by any rational definition of the term. McVeigh was an avowed agnostic. While Breivik called himself a Christian, he explicitly said that he did not believe in the religion.

In some ways, yes, it is. The mujaheddin in Afghanistan were groups of groups. Some of them were friendly to the West, some at least as hostile as the Soviet hardliners. Their unifying principle was the fight against the Soviets. Eventually, they turned on each other until the Taliban came along, then they chose sides again.

Libya is similar, though with a population that is generally more metropolitan. Afghanistan's people are generally insular, focused on very local or regional activity. Libya has long been used to working with the world and as such, have a better grasp of how important it is to settle down.

The problem is that Gaddafi never trusted his military and so kept it weak so that it couldn't mount a coup, and the remaining institutions are similarly weak for the moment. He relied on family members running hand-picked units and on mercenary groups from around Africa such as the Tuaregs that have caused problems recently in Niger, Mali, and Algeria. These groups now have nothing to do but fight and/or sell weapons to try to earn or steal money. A few long-oppressed groups and former Gaddafi loyalists have also armed up, and groups like the Salafists that dream of instituting worldwide Sharia are doing the same. The Salafists are causing their own set of problems in Tunisia and Egypt as well, and have turned up in Syria where the Free Syrian Army (or the group formerly known as such) is trying to figure out how to distance them without alienating them.

Most of Libya is happy and wants a quiet life with a return of international trade. Until national institutions like the military and police are strengthened appropriately, there will be groups that do as they will and cause mayhem and death. This has been happening for the last year, but it's only now that the US has been caught up in it.

Semantics are at the root of many misunderstandings. Just like many fundamentalist Christians don't know the proper definition of "theory" and ignorantly deride evolution as "just a theory", you don't understand the Islam definition of peace.

It is "the peace of Allah". That is, peace for those who submit to the will of God. For those who don't submit... that's different. If you want "peace", then submit to God's will. The word "Islam" itself translates as "submission" -- as in submission to the will of God.

I wonder if you love those "peace loving christians" when they plant bombs and shoot up a summer camp [huffingtonpost.com]. Or do you make really weak generalizations just when it comes to muslims? The reality is that the muslim terrorists are a tiny minority of the billion+ muslims in the world. To label every muslim a terrorist on par with Al-Qaeda merely does three things:1) It legitimizes the terrorists as the only real muslims.2) It legitimizes and fuels their calls for a culture war by calling for a culture war yourself.3) It pisses off every muslim who just wants to get on with their lives, and turns them against you. Which, incidentally, is again what the terrorists are hoping for.

So congratulations for doing exactly what the muslim terrorists want you to do. What a good little puppet you are.

Al Qaeda is shitting their pants that they are increasingly becoming irrelevant to the modern world. Documents from Osama Bin Laden's compound showed that he was concerned that the Islamic world is starting to reject his group's philosophy. If America went into the ME and started slaughtering more Muslims then this would only validate the hardliner's position.

What should America do? Speak quietly and politely and fucking kill all the bad guys (and only the bad guys) using drones and whatever other military methods we have at our disposal.

Christian did riot and attack people due to the "last temptation of christ" , look back in the news from 88-89. Cocktail molotov were thrown at a cinema in France, and 14 people wounded. Granted it is not as bad as a RPG into a car, but the fact is that there are fundemmentalist everywhere, and in that country a lot ofn military hardware is floating around. I am not excusing the act of those nutcase, but jsut like I did not condemn the WHOLE christianity when tehy killed doctor, shown "god hate fags" sign

*were* doing. Islam today seems to be in many respects much like medieval Christianity - holy wars, oppressive governments, execution of heretics, and so on. Christianity changed. Sure, there are a number of crazies and extremists left - but when was the last time you saw an angry mob of Christians storming a British embassy and murdering diplomats because Dawkins insulted them? When it comes to modern religiously-inspired angry mobs, Islam leads with ease.

Feynman would have nothing to do with his origins/ethnicity. He refused being included in a book about "great Jewish men" (I paraphrase), and he'd be probably quite offended by you using his name in this fashion. Yes, what you cite is a fact, but the argument is charged, and he'd want nothing to do with it I bet.

We Jews compose 0.3% of this planet's population, yet we won over 30% of Nobel Prizes, Field Medals, Chess Masters, Wrote the best and most renowned and thought provoking books...

Unless you personally are a Nobel prize or a Fields (not "Field") Medal laureate, a chess master or wrote any of the best and most renowned and thought provoking books, you have no right to use the word "we" in that sentence.

After all, this is why you hate us, because when you look into the mirror... you know that you'll never reach our level... it's not in your genes.

Where is the list of your personal achievements? What have you done with what's "in your genes"?No, they hate us because of useless assholes like you. And frankly, the rest of us Jews don't like you and your ilk either.

Agreed. This is just one of those many threads that bring out all the folks that'll start quoting that Godless piece of bigotry that is www.thereligionofpeace.com, and get modded up by others who insist on believing that all 1.4 BILLION Muslims around the world are terrorists, which makes about as much sense as equating all Protestants with the Klan. I'll probably get modded down just for posting this, but I really don't care...that sort of crap makes me ashamed to be an American.

Are you so sure that's what happened in this case? After all, the embassy victims had nothing to do with the film. I've seen Libyan muslims claim that this was a planned attack by anti-American militants (a.k.a al Quaeda) using a demonstration as a pretext.

Even if it was all spontaneous and popular, it's highly likely that the perpetrators have other reasons to hate besides stories about an offensive film.

you realize that jews and christians are doing this same type of crap, right?

You can say anything you want about Jesus and no Christian will kill you. In fact, Jesus specifically told us you would and that we should do nothing. So say anything you want about my religion. It's okay. I forgive you.

you realize that jews and christians are doing this same type of crap, right?

You can say anything you want about Jesus and no Christian will kill you. In fact, Jesus specifically told us you would and that we should do nothing. So say anything you want about my religion. It's okay. I forgive you.

Congratulations, you at least have an idea what it means to actually be Christian (more to it than forgiving transgressors, obviously).

Sadly, very few who claim to followers of Jesus Christ are as wise to the tenements of the faith as you seem to be. Therein lies the issue.

Thus setting yourself up to play the "No True Scotsman [wikipedia.org]" card. Meanwhile, a certain mosque in Tennessee keeps getting burned down because the folks who use it deny Jesus was the son of God.

No Christian? I wouldn't go that far - look at the abortion clinic bombings, it's not that far from what we are talking about.

Now, the ultra orthadox Jews are a different matter - even Israel has problems with its Jewish fringe groups, except these aren't really fringe groups - take a look at how tolerant some of them are to Christians in Israeli communities...

Have you read Leviticus, Deuteronomy, or Exodus? Those books are filled with various reasons for which you should kill people (see here [evilbible.com]), among others.

Of course, most modern Christians choose to ignore those parts of the bible, aside from the occasional abortion clinic bomber. The only real difference is that there are a significant number of Muslims who haven't figured out that they should ignore the parts of their holy text that say to kill people.

You can say anything you want about Jesus and no Christian will kill you.

"But since our discourse has now turned to the subject of blasphemy, I desire to ask one favor of you all, in return for this my address, and speaking with you; which is, that you will correct on my behalf the blasphemers of this city. And should you hear any one in the public thoroughfare, or in the midst of the forum, blaspheming God; go up to him and rebuke him; and should it be necessary to inflict blows, spare not to do so. Smite him on the face; strike his mouth; sanctify your hand with the blow, and if any should accuse you, and drag you to the place of justice, follow them thither; and when the judge on the bench calls you to account, say boldly that the man blasphemed the King of angels! For if it be necessary to punish those who blaspheme an earthly king, much more so those who insult God."

- St John Chrysostom, one of the Church Fathers, and recognized as a saint by Catholics, Orthodox, Anglicans, and many Lutherans.

As someone posted above, this not extremely recent, and did not result in any death, but it's relevant [wikipedia.org]. Now, to be fair, that's not even close to the attack in Libya. I'm just showing that Christianity is not immune to extremely violent fanaticism.

You also have to consider the context in which this episode in Libya happened -- religion is certainly a factor, but not the only one, and probably not even the most important one. Libya had a bloody civil war a year ago, and is still very unstable [wikipedia.org]; this same US c

lets see how many of those in the list you linked to are religious in nature and youtube motivatied.

April 1999 - two teenage schoolboys shot and killed 12 schoolmates and a teacher at Columbine High School in Littleton, Colorado, before killing themselves.July 1999 - a stock exchange trader in Atlanta, Georgia, killed 12 people including his wife and two children before taking his own life.September 1999 - a gunman opened fire at a prayer service in Fort Worth, Texas, killing six people before committing suicide.October 2002 - a series of sniper-style shootings occurred in Washington DC, leaving 10 dead.August 2003 - in Chicago, a laid-off worker shot and killed six of his former workmates.November 2004 - in Birchwood, Wisconsin, a hunter killed six other hunters and wounded two others after an argument with them.

so far no religious motivation just crazy

March 2005 - a man opened fire at a church service in Brookfield, Wisconsin, killing seven people.

committed against people of said faiths not by them good try though

October 2006 - a truck driver killed five schoolgirls and seriously wounded six others in a school in Nickel Mines, Pennsylvania before taking his own life.April 2007 - student Seung-Hui Cho shot and killed 32 people and wounded 15 others at Virginia Tech in Blacksburg, Virginia, before shooting himself, making it the deadliest mass shooting in the United States after 2000.August 2007 - Three Delaware State University students were shot and killed in “execution style” by a 28-year-old and two 15-year-old boys. A fourth student was shot and stabbed.September 2007 - A freshman student at Delaware State University shot and wounded two other students at a campus dining hall.December 2007 - a 20-year-old man killed nine people and injured five others in a shopping center in Omaha, Nebraska.December 2007 - a woman and her boyfriend shot dead six members of her family on Christmas Eve in Carnation, Washington.February 2008 - a shooter who is still at large tied up and shot six women at a suburban clothing store in Chicago, leaving five of them dead and the remaining one injured.February 2008 - a man opened fire in a lecture hall at Northern Illinois University in DeKalb, Illinois, killing five students and wounding 16 others before laying down his weapon and surrendering.July 2008 – A former student shot three people in a computer lab at South Mountain Community College, Phoenix, Arizona.September 2008 - a mentally ill man who was released from jail one month earlier shot eight people in Alger, Washington, leaving six of them dead and the rest two wounded.October 2008 - Several men in a car drove up to a dormitory at the University of Central Arkansas and opened fire, killing two students and injuring a third person.

still no religious motivation mentioned

December 2008 - a man dressed in a Santa Claus suit opened fire at a family Christmas party in Covina, California, then set fire on the house and killed himself. Police later found nine people dead in the debris of the house.

not unless christians worship santa claus

March 2009 - a 28-year-old laid-off worker opened fire while driving a car through several towns in Alabama, killing 10 people.March 2009 - a heavily-armed gunman shot dead eight people, many of them elderly and sick people, in a private-owned nursing home in North Carolina.March 2009 - six people were shot dead in a high-grade apartment building in Santa Clara, California.April 2009 – An 18-year-old former student followed a pizza deliveryman into his old dormitory, and shot the deliveryman, a dorm monitor, and himself at Hampton University, Virginia.April 2009 - a man shot dead 13 people at a civic center in Binghamton, New York.July 2009 - Six people, including one student, were shot in a drive-by shooting at a community rally on the campus of Texas Southern University, Houston.

don't see any yet

November 2009 - U.S. army psychologist Major Nidal Hasan opened fire at a military base in Fort Hood, Texas, leaving 13 dead and 42 others wounded.

wait a minute he IS a muslim isn't he?

February 2010 – A professor opened fire 50 minutes into at a Biological Sciences Department faculty meeting at the University of Alabama, killing three colleagues and wounding three othersJanuary 2011 - a gunman opened fire at a public gathering outside a grocery in Tuscon, Arizona, killing six people including a nine-year-old girl and wounding at least 12 others. Congresswoman Gabrielle Giffords was severely injured with a gunshot to the head.July 2012 - Masked gunman opens fire at midnight cinema screen of new Batman film The Dark Knight Rises, killing 12 and injuring 58. Suspect James Holmes is arrested by oplice and awaiting trial.August 2012 - Gunman kills six people at SIkh temple in Wisconsin before being shot dead by police. Suspect is named as white supremacists Wade Michael Page.

so the only ones that involved religion were either committed against Christians, or committed by Muslims. your list doesn't seems to support your argument.I never said

The Cold War was peace and harmony compared to this Islamic fundamentalist shit. This is fucking terrifying.

Why are you so terrified? You're not in the middle of it. And people die every day. To be afraid of death is just silly. Now I would not blame anyone for wanting to live as long as possible, but any one of us could die tomorrow of an infection from a cut, a car accident, an illness, an aneurism, or a thousand other things. You can't live your life in fear of every possible thing that could happen. Now if you're a soldier fighting against these people, then you would have to be crazy to not be scared. But all living things must die, and people need to learn to accept it, and not sacrifice all their rights, freedoms, and happiness in an ever illusory sense of safety.

Of course not. I didn't say that we should do nothing. Like I said, I understand that people want to live as long as possible. But there is only so much you can do, and living in fear is not a good choice for anyone. Especially for Westerners that have nothing to worry about except terrorists. The odds of dying from terrorism in the West is slim, and is not worth the sacrifice we have made to our liberties. Those sacrifices would have never been made if people had a reasonable understanding of what the

What does God say that isn't said through the voice of men? What we are seeing is a bunch of psychopaths seizing the unbreakable and unquestionable chains of God to lead a bunch of uneducated and disgruntled peons into violence. Don't think we're any different. You look at any major Holy Book and you can pervert it to violence if you so choose. There were Christian fundamentalists at Waco and the Branch Davidians who thought that God wanted them to prepare for the end of days. It's only because we have already went through the Crusades and have a relatively well-educated population that we haven't devolved into a theocratic shit state. We already have the TeaTards pushing an evangelical agenda. If our economy really hits the shitter, and we get rid of secular education, we'd be in the same fucking shit show in a few decades. Heck, you can argue that our invasion of Iraq was driven by evangelical neocons who thought they were on a fucking Crusade to tame the infidels, and a hundred thousand civilians died as a result of the invasion.

The government of Libya already apologized. The government of Egypt deployed forces around the US Embassy there to protect it from attack. Eventually, the governments will need to send in their police forces and military to crush these violent uprisings. Other than that, there's nothing the US should do unless it turns out that the governments were actually behind the attacks.

The Cold War was peace and harmony compared to this Islamic fundamentalist shit. This is fucking terrifying.

Oh please. The Cold War had the potential to destroy human life on this planet. Islamic fundamentalists killed 3000 people with one extremely lucky attack 10 years ago, and a handful here and there ever since.

You're more likely to die on the road because you're too afraid of terrorists (or the TSA, as the case may be) to fly than you are to die from terrorists. Grow a pair.

The military assault against the US Consulate in Benghazi should not be seen as part of a protest against a low budget film which was insulting Islam â" there were just a few peaceful protesters present at the event. Indeed, there have been no other demonstrations regarding this film in Libya.

We at Quilliam believe the attack on the US consulate in Benghazi was a well planned terrorist attack that would have occurred regardless of the demonstration, to serve another purpose. According to information obtained by Quilliam from foreign sources and from within Benghazi we have reason to believe that the attack on the US consulate in Benghazi came to avenge the death of Abu Yaya al-Libi, al-Qaedaâ(TM)s second in command killed a few months ago.

The reasons for this are as follows:

24 hours before this attack, none other than the leader of al-Qaeda, Ayman al-Zawahiri, released a video on Jihadist forums to mark the anniversary of 9/11. In this video, Zawahiri acknowledged the death of his second in command Abu Yahya and urged Libyans to avenge his killing.

According to our sources, the attack was the work of roughly 20 militants, prepared for a military assault â" it is rare that an RPG7 is present at a peaceful protest.

According to our sources, the attack against the Consulate had two waves. The first attack led to US officials being evacuated from the consulate by Libyan security forces, only for the second wave to be launched against US officials after they were kept in a secure location.

The weak security environment in Libya including in Benghazi and the failure of the government to project its power outside of the capital have been used as a cover for the attack.

The failure to rebuild the defence and security sector, in an accountable, professional and responsible manner will only further the likelihood of such attacks in the future. Attacks in Benghazi are not new â" the Red Cross has been attacked multiple times in previous months, as have the US consulate and also the UK Ambassador, and such security lapses encourage attacks. The International Community must take the challenge of not allowing extremist elements to hijack the Arab Uprisings very seriously, by renewing their focus on civic and governance responses to check the efforts of Islamist extremists attempting to exploit the inevitable security vacuum.

Noman Benotman, President of Quilliam says:

âoeThese are acts committed by uncontrollable jihadist groups. We hope Libya will seize this opportunity to revive its policy of Disarmament, Demobilisation and Re-integration (DDR) in order to facilitate an end to the spread of such attacks, with the help of the International Community. We hope that the International Community, including NATO member states and especially the US, will continue their excellent work in Libya which began with the overthrow of the dictator Gaddafi after 42 years in power.â

In September 2012 it was reported by The Atlantic that Terry Jones was involved in the promotion of a movie vilifying Islam, titled Innocence of Muslims. The movie led to protests in Egypt and Libya. In Cairo, protesters breached the wall of the U.S. Embassy and burned the flag. The U.S. consulate in Benghazi, Libya, was largely burnt and looted; killing Ambassador Christopher Stevens and three other American citizens.[26] Jones screened the film for his followers on September 11, 2012, a day he dubbed, "International Judge Mohammad Day"

I hope this guy knows he has blood on his hands now, as batshit crazy as *he* is, he is now partially at fault. I knew he'd do something to incite violence overseas ever since his ridiculous quaran burning.

Bullshit! No one has responsibility for this except the religious fanatics that did it and their own leaders. And as long as these radical idiots keep this kind of thing up only more people will be willing to speak out against them.

Allow me to preface this post by stating that I vehemently disagree with Terry Jones' ideology.

I disagree. I consider them mentally ill. It is known that certain actions will cause them to become violent, this pastor was warned before his Quaran burnings by the FBI about this and did it anyways (resulting in many deaths), the blood is on his hands.

This; this is exactly the attitude that results in our government justifying spending trillions of our tax dollars on security theater and domestic surveillance.

See, we supposedly have an inalienable right to free speech in this nation. Over time, someone's expression of free speech will inevitably piss someone else off. Sometimes, that someone else uses the threat of violence in an attempt to violate the first

In September 2012 it was reported by The Atlantic that Terry Jones was involved in the promotion of a movie vilifying Islam, titled Innocence of Muslims. The movie led to protests in Egypt and Libya. In Cairo, protesters breached the wall of the U.S. Embassy and burned the flag. The U.S. consulate in Benghazi, Libya, was largely burnt and looted; killing Ambassador Christopher Stevens and three other American citizens.[26] Jones screened the film for his followers on September 11, 2012, a day he dubbed, "International Judge Mohammad Day"

So, in order to protest the film, they all went and proved the film right?

First it was Afghanistan. You thought that everyone [photobucket.com] fighting against authoritarian Soviets was automatically pro-democracy and pro-human rights; and what's wrong if they speak of Islam and jihad occasionally? Clearly it's only against the bad guys. And so you gave them money and guns and trained them, and the end result was a country where most schools (build by those very Soviets) were demolished and replaced by madrassas, and secular if authoritarian government replaced by fanatics who were stoning women on football stadiums for adultery after they were raped.

(Oh, and don't say that you didn't support Taliban. This guy [wikipedia.org] was no better, and most of his troops ended up in Taliban anyway.)

And what do you get for it in the end? A whole country turned into a giant terrorist training camp that's now working against you, and using those very weapons that you've supplied them to kill your soldiers, and workers that you send to try to rebuild the country. The training camp that produced those people who committed the biggest terrorist act ever in the history of this planet, against the USA.

Then there was Kosovo. Again, "freedom fighters" against a totalitarian regime and all that. Again, a decade afterwards it's slowly growing to be another place where Wahhabism spreads, only this time in the middle of Europe (and also a major drug transit center to boot, to finance the operation). And, again, the chickens are coming [cnn.com] home [wikipedia.org] to roost [wikipedia.org].

Now there's Libya. It's only been a year since the downfall of the regime - thanks largely to heavy NATO military backing of the rebel "freedom fighters" - and we've already seen genocide of the black population, widespread persecuting of Christians, and now this act of outright hostility towards USA and the murder of its citizens and representatives. You can go on at length about how the real, democratically elected government of Libya is liberal and all about human rights and such, but what this incident clearly shows is that they're not a government. They're simply not in control of the country. And people that are in control, because they have guns (that you gave them) and troops and determination - people like this [worldcrunch.com] - hate democracy and human rights with a passion, and hate you because you are representative of that. And you can't even say that they haven't warned you [vice.com] if you were only willing to see and listen...

But, hey, that's still not quite enough jihadis, right? Let's create another breeding ground for them in Syria as well?

Of course, none of the real-world stuff is as simple as you portray it. Libya started as a very real effort by the general population to overthrow a pretty scummy dictator. There were three options: support the government (thank god we learned our lesson on supporting dictators for some very fuzzy "strategic" goal), do nothing, or support the people fighting the government. We did pretty much the best thing we could have: even the fight by taking out heavy armor and artillery, remove the threat of aerial assault, and let the Libyans sort out the rest. We're seeing the results of the do-nothing approach in Syria: a prolonged war that is getting more violent as time goes on, with more extremist elements joining the fight on both sides.

Libya is a pip-squeak compared to what we're getting in Syria.

I hate to break it to you, but sometimes the best we can do results in a situation that is only somewhat of an improvement over a total catastrophe. And yet, it is still better than to just sit on your ass. What is it with people who think that if something's not perfect, nothing should be done?

Of course, none of the real-world stuff is as simple as you portray it. Libya started as a very real effort by the general population to overthrow a pretty scummy dictator.

Not quite. It started as a very real effort by a part of the general population to overthrow a petty scummy dictator ruling in the interests of and supported by the other part of the general population. That's why we eventually called it a civil war, not an uprising.

But even then, so what? If someone revolts against a dictator, it doesn't mean that they are any better themselves. The problem is that Americans seem to assume that everyone revolting against a dictator is a champion of freedom. In practice, more often than not, they just want a different kind of dictatorship.

We're seeing the results of the do-nothing approach in Syria: a prolonged war that is getting more violent as time goes on, with more extremist elements joining the fight on both sides.

There was no such threat in Libya without foreign involvement. To remind you, the loyalist Libyan army has all but steamrolled the rebels by the time NATO intervened. Syria is different because, on one hand, the pro-government side is much more of a minority (it's basically Alawites and some Christians vs the Sunni majority), and, on the other hand, there are already a bunch of states around that are supporting both sides of the conflict - Iran backing Assad, and Arab states backing the rebels. That's what prolongs the conflict.

I hate to break it to you, but sometimes the best we can do results in a situation that is only somewhat of an improvement over a total catastrophe.

And, pray tell, in what sense is the situation in Libya "somewhat of an improvement" over what was there under Gaddafi?

That was the whole point of my post. In none of the cases that I've outlined, the situation is actually better. It is, at best, different, and usually worse, especially when you look at it from western perspective. So why get involved to help one bad guys against other bad guys, and get burned in the process? More importantly, why keep repeating that?

I see - the argument is of the type "better the devil we know than the angel we don't". There's some merit to it, but quite frankly, blind application of this leads to.... blindness. As a result, I don't put much faith into that. At some point, you have to do what is right, because the alternative is not doing anything at all - and I quite frankly find that repulsive.

There was no such threat in Libya without foreign involvement.

The parallels of the war in Syria are much closer than you think. The rebels were initially getting rolled everywhere as well. At some point,

I see - the argument is of the type "better the devil we know than the angel we don't".

No, the argument is that the one we don't know is the devil also - we know enough to determine that.

And Ghaddafi relied almost exclusively on support from his tribe and hired goons from Africa to protect his rule.

Not just on his own tribe. There were a number of tribes aligned with him. Did you miss the part where, after the end of the civil war, rebel militias have evicted citizens of several towns for being "pro-Gaddafi"?

"Hired goons from Africa" was mostly rebel propaganda they've used to justify their genocide against black Libyans. To date, there has been very scant evidence of those mythical black mercenaries. A

"Islamic democracies" work quite nicely. Ask Turkey, Malaysia, Indonesia. Those are actually the only Islamic countries I can think of that have an actual functioning democracy. Not sure why you think that they are some backward shithole. Again, the differentiating factor here really seems to be governance, and not religion.

But that's imperialism, and hence not politically correct. Not to mention, insanely expensive - more so than buying AKs for jihadi "freedom fighters" and dropping an occasional JDAM to support their advance.

And that's why it's not done anymore - not because it's not PC, but because it's just so fucking expensive and long. Not to mention that it requires an actual exit strategy with a proper handover. In short, every thing the US as a country doesn't want to do anymore. So we have three options: do the right thing and pay for it, do nothing, or do the cheapest thing that still has a positive ROI. And do remember that doing nothing has always costs associated with it as well.

What exactly was wrong about what I said about Kosovo?

That it was worse now than what would have happened with non-intervention. I'm fully aware of the sorry state of Kosovo right now - and I'm ecstatic that the entire region isn't like that, which is what would have happened with a full-on war.

The best thing that could be the outcome of the Libyan civil war as it actually went was Gaddafi staying in power but having to negotiate with other factions, and therefore the regime becoming less oppressive.

And that would have never happened. That's right up there with Unicorns farting rainbows.

"Hired goons from Africa" was mostly rebel propaganda they've used to justify their genocide against black Libyans.

Actually, Ghaddafi did employ hired goons from Africa. The problem was that black Libyans were regularly assumed to be just hired goons. And since there were far more black Libyans than hired goons.... well, you do the math. And yes, persecution of black Libyans is a problem. I'm not arguing that Libya isn't a significant basket case right now. However, it's a better start than we're getting with Syria, and at least there's the opportunity there for something positive to happen. Syria basically is going to be a basket case for the next decades.

Because instability breeds more instability. And the crazies are already killing unrelated people. Unless, of course, you mean that everyone east of the US is crazy, and should just annihilate themselves.

We are freeing Islamists around the world from their pimp-lords, rulers, kings, and anyone else that thrives on their oppression.

It's somewhat more complicated, but it'll do as a simplification.

In return with their new found freedom, they are collectively forming an Islamic axis of evil (Iran, Iraq, Afghanistan, Libya, Egypt, Syria, etc) against Western nations

Iran doesn't belong here. It's a Shiite theocracy, remember, and Shiites and Sunnis (or Persians and Arabs, since that fight also has an ethno-cultural dimension) don't get along well. In fact, you can see it in Syria today - Iran openly backs Assad, while Arab states support the rebels.

Looking at it purely from a geopolitical perspective, Syria under Assad would actually be preferable to the West, because it would be aligned with Iran, and he

The revolts happened without US influence, yes. And they were nearly crushed when the West decided to intervene.

And, yes, US was not the main player there (which is why I referred to NATO and not US), but it certainly supported the whole affair big time.

Also, the UN resolution only established a no-fly zone, and allowed the use of military force against anyone (whether loyalists or rebels) targeting civilians. In practice, the way it was implemented by NATO countries, they only ever targeted loyalists - despite the rebels engaging in open genocide of black Libyans during and after the campaign - and they targeted loyalist targets indiscriminately, even when they were engaging rebel fighters and not civilians. It had actually got to the point where there was coordination established between rebel militias and NATO strike forces such that the rebels would be alerted of the upcoming air strike against loyalist armor & artillery, and time their assaults so that they happen immediately after those strikes. In other words, it was direct military support for one side in a civil war, under the guise of protecting civilian population.

If you think that Libya was "closer to a true democracy" under Gaddafi, you're outright insane.

Even the most sham-elected de facto dictatorship on the planet blows the doors off any theocracy ever, when it comes to "closer to a true democracy".

At some point, the people can appeal to a (human) tyrant, and he might respond to their concerns.

Whether or not it exists, god never responds.

We need to get out of the Middle East/North Africa, until the savages either settle their differences or kill each other off. Screw this "democracy" crap, we've now plunged three "questionable" but relatively secular democracies into borderline (or even outright) sharia over the past decade. We need to quit while only that far behind.

So, an EVE Online CSM 'got what he deserved'... how exactly? You have some major rage issues against EVE? Read the article, Sean Smith was the EVE CSM... Chris Stevens was the ambassador.
Even then, how would an AMBASSADOR at a consulate deserve to die over anything? Did he set policy? Did he do ANYTHING to these people?
Again with a lack of reading... this was in response to a bunch of insecure religious extremists going, as quoted above, 'bat shit crazy' over a movie they didn't like regarding their reverred Prophet Mohammad.
So, here's your reasoning in a nutshell. Because a Libyan Christian living in California made a movie supporting his belief that the Muslim faith is a dangerous cancer (his words), these men deserved to die.
Hopefully these same folks never see any of these movies:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_films_about_Muhammad [wikipedia.org]
Or we may just have WW3 on our hands....

I went to youtube and watched the whole movie trailor, which is not a feat for the faint of heart. This movie if viewed in it's entirety not only easily displaces Battlefield Earth [wikipedia.org] it also bumps up The Profit [wikipedia.org] on my personal list of worst movies. Anyone taking blood thinners should avoid this movie and it's trailer because it will make your eyes bleed.

i truly cannot even parse this. A person should be responsible for using "mean spirited" words ? When the deaths were caused on the other end of the world by people who probably never saw the video? The responders could have opted to shout mean spirited words back, or even make their own movie, or go and live their lives in a way that proves the movie-maker wrong. Instead it is decided that murder of random employees of a country whose laws allow people to use "mean spirited" words is a proper response. Thi

So what your saying is that the next time someone insults Christianity such as putting a crucifix in jar of urine (Piss Christ) or anything else of that nature, they should bring about the Crusaders again and kill in the name of God!?

You've got the order of that entirely incorrect. What I believe jvillain is saying is that, "if insulting Christianity was known to motivate a large number of Christians to violence and murder, then anyone purposefully insulting Christianity should also be held responsible for resulting criminal activity."

Antagonizing an individual does not necessarily make one blameless for the resulting violence committed against you. There's the famous case of Buzz Aldrin punching conspiracy theorist Bart Sibrel. Mr. Sib

Furthermore, no amount of verbal or written instigation should make you accountable for the actions of others. You can't force people to do things with words, ultimately it is their choice alone if they will do it or not and they alone should answer for the consequences.

Of course not, but that doesn't mean you can act as if cause and effect no longer apply and the results are not predictable.

Furthermore, no amount of verbal or written instigation should make you accountable for the actions of others.

Maybe in a court of law. But you should always hold yourself accountable for the completely expected consequences of your actions, even if certain steps in the chain of causality involve other sentient beings.

For example:

You walk into a bar and tell an ex-marine you know has a drinking problem and rage issues that dogs are fucking scum and you wish more of them were dying from IEDs.

He wasn't a diplomat he was a tech guy working in the consulate. I can understand the confusion, Sean Smith aka Vile Rat was a diplomat for the eve online alliance Goonswarm and a former member of the CSM.

He leaves behind two kids so presumably it would go towards them and any funeral costs.

nah that wasn't his last chat transcript. That was just an example that was pretty common to hear from him when he was in Iraq . His lats words on jabber were "FUCK" and "GUNFIRE" and then he disappeared off Jabber.

Unfortunately their new government hasn't done enough to collect all the heavy weapons out there.

What can they do, really? If you don't have more guns (and people) than the other guy, then the only thing you can do is politely ask. Of course he'll refuse - after all, so long as he has his guns, he also has the same power as you, at least on his own turf. Then what?

Sean was a very patient man. You have to be patient to play Eve, especially to play the meta-game of diplomacy. He built a great legacy for in-game diplomacy and it's no stretch to say that he's responsible for alot of the way things are aligned politically in the game. He loved the diplomacy game in Eve because it was a sandbox that oftentimes mirrors real life. He loved people and he was often the voice of reason, not just for game matters, but for lots of real life things.

Sean made every attempt to be the best person he could be and that rubbed off on alot of us. If I was having a bad day and I needed to vent, he would be there and he would have sane advice. I was really sad when he left the Montreal duty station to move to the Hague, because that meant a timezone difference that's hard to deal with. He managed to keep up with everyone though. He cared about his friends and there aren't many goons that would refuse his advice or insight.

He wasn't just a IT guy in the FSIMS. He once told me that you can do many things outside of your job description when working for State. He always said that if you were motivated and eager to learn, you could go far there and have a very challenging and worthy career. Naturally, there were lots of things that he couldn't tell us but to say that he was simply a IMS guy is not completely accurate. He lived for it and I have no doubt in my mind that there was not any occasion that he would not rise to.

I cannot even begin to tell you how hard this has been on all of us. When you talk to someone everyday and share the little things of your day to day life and you share your trials and tribulations and successes, you really miss that person when they are gone. It's surreal, even the possibility of him dying was sort of a standing joke, like it would never happen to him. I guess you think that way about anyone that's deployed in a government or military post because if you stop to dwell on the risks, you break down.

There's not enough thanks in the world for the guys that work for state or the guys in our military. It's easy to be dispassionate until you know someone that is lost or know someone that has lost. Eve not only lost a great player but a great friend.

How deep is that connection with your friends you know only in a virtual way? Does their impact on the virtual world you played in matter in any sense? Is changing a game world that 300 000 people play in and enjoy a real accomplishment? If he coaches little league or his kids football people would talk about that, even though it impacts a lot less people and is not all that important in the grand scheme of things. Hundreds of thousands of people have been touched, in a small way, by this guy, he was part of their little special society.

It's also strange, how our relationships with friends are changing. My friends who I play online with at least, are more likely to remember the far too many hours we spent trying to kill the first entrance trash in molten core, on the first night there were 40 people on our server who could even get in than some event where people went bar crawling and didn't quite make it home. We raided molten core, other people broke into an abandoned cement factory.

I'm 32, 4 years ago a friend of mine from public school passed away due to brain cancer. I had known him for 23 or 24 years in total (from junior kindergarten until he passed away). We did lots of stuff as kids, riding around parks on a bike, trying to meet girls, failing miserably with girls, we sat around his house and played games, we went to universities, fell in a river at a yearly university party etc. That stuff, when people gave speeches about it at his funeral is something everyone could relate to and laugh about. Including that time we accidentally set fire to our old school, his father sold school equipment and after graduation he was working for his dad and someone botched an installation... Know one really knew (or was inclined to talk about) how he'd spent the last couple of years of his life trying to help organize a guild in a video game. He couldn't be around people IRL a lot of the time due to treatments, but he could log on and help organize 40 or 50 people to get their shit together and have fun. I guess that's important, insofar as having fun is important. But it's not something people in their 40's and 50's and older can really understand or relate to generally.

Eve particularly makes this a story because it's a single world. Whatever my deceased friend accomplished was confined to one server of a cluster of servers of hundreds of thousands or millions of people all doing the same thing, in their own little instances walking past each other. But in Eve, one person can change the world for everyone, good or bad.

Notice how there's no story about the other 3 people who were killed, 2 other staffers and the ambassador. The ambassador is getting lots of coverage on the MSM. That was his 'clique' so to speak, and that will be his mark on the world is as an ambassador trying to manage US business. This was an IT guy, who played games with his friends. There's nothing wrong with that, but how we think about peoples contribution to the world is changing, this poor guy has the unfortunate distinction of getting a lot of press for it, but he's certainly not the first.

When George Lucas or Hironobu Sakaguchi, or Sid Meier pass away people on the outside of their properties (Star Wars/Indiana Jones, Final fantasy, Civilization) will understand them as the creators of those things, even if they never played the games or watched the movies. Game worlds are different, because the people who created the rules of the world, and the people who make the world aren't the same. This guy made part of the world that was created by the people at CCP, and that 300k other people play in. I don't think society has quite figured out how, if at all, it wants to try and recognize that.

Goonswarm Alliance is a superpower in eve. It's long been a mystery how such a collection of mismatched personalities manages to stay so perfectly organised. Now we know: They had a professionally trained diplomat.