I have been trying to say this for very long time. She has strong heart and is powerful in her own right but she is by no mean perfect in every way.

---------- Post added 2013-01-15 at 08:58 AM ----------

[/COLOR]

Something there kind of bugs me.

All Garrosh did was defend a keep he built in a very stupid place and then said a hundred Orcs to die in Icecrown.

All Varian did was..... teleport outside of Undercity with no logical reasoning as to how.

Varian killed the man who made the gas the that killed Bolvar and his aa army. You may not see what Garrosh did in game but lore wise he actually came back from NR as a hero of the horde. What you see in game is not everything there is to the lore because by this logic all leaders just sit in their throne doing nothing.[/QUOTE]

Huh? Borean Tundra was the staging for some of the most important battles in the war against the Scourge and, obviously, the Blue Dragonflight. Leading the military offensive into Icecrown to successfully take down Arthas is no small feat.

People need not downplay Garrosh's accomplishments. He's a surly dude and a fearsome leader, but he didn't just walk into his position. This story, like any other, requires a bit of suspension of disbelief.

So a more cunning leader who is supposed to care about his people he's already lost once before would prove himself an excellent leader somehow by unnecessarily throwing away their lives in the scores? Instead of devising plans that have his forces suffering minimum loss and the enemy decimated?

You think narrowly. It's not about being reasonably good vs. being randomly evil. It's about making hard decisions. By hard I mean decisions with no right answer, like Stratholme. Arthas' decision was a decision of a king, while Uther just stood and watched like a pussy he was (but he kept his hands clean). In fantasy, it's always easy for a king to go and pwn a dragon, it's a given fact. But it's not easy when someone else has to suffer. Good characters always miraculously avoid such situations and never make mistakes, and by mistakes I mean fatal mistakes with echoing consequences. How a character deals with such things is what defines a believable character, because mistakes and hard choices is what we, the real people, do. Merely displaying infinite courage while at the same time wearing plot armor is not enough. If he lost a limb in a fight, that would've been another talk, but he only got cool-looking scars. Other than his wife no one cares about, he's lost nothing - because he returned everything by swinging his plot-enchanted sword.

Characters like Sylvanas are different, because she's undergone believable changes, and she's flawed. She is cruel, cold, and manipulating. She failed, and not once, and it cost her - first, she was turned into a banshee, which made her bitter and obsessed with vengeance, then she betrayed (Garithos) and was betrayed (Putress and Varimathras), which cost her reputation and any trustworthiness she might've had, and then she was faced with either dying and letting all of her people die out, or walking a path that dangerously resembles that of her nemesis. And despite all her faults, she is the only reason why the nation of Forsaken was formed, still stands and even advances, and that is why she is venerated (by those who choose to).

He hates his enemies with a passion, but unlike Garrosh he focuses his hatred. He hates Garrosh and all those who stand in his way of killing Garrosh. He isn't looking for orc genocide.

King Varian Wrynn says: I was away for too long. My absence cost us the lives of some of our greatest heroes. Trash like you and this evil witch were allowed to roam free -- unchecked.
King Varian Wrynn says: The time has come to make things right. To disband your treacherous kingdom of murderers and thieves. Putress was the first strike. Many more will come.
King Varian Wrynn says: I've waited a long time for this, Thrall. For every time I was thrown into one of your damned arenas... for every time I killed a green-skinned aberration like you... I could only think of one thing.
King Varian Wrynn says: What our world could be without you and your twisted Horde... It ends now, Warchief.
King Varian Wrynn says: ATTACK! FOR STORMWIND! FOR BOLVAR! FOR THE ALLIANCE!

Sounds pretty bloodthirsty and not-so-level-headed to me, especially considering that he was addressing to the most peaceful orc ever. And right after that kingdom of murderers and thieves that is Horde in his eyes turns into a kingdom of mass murderers wiping out Alliance cities whole, he suddenly becomes more... calm and wise? Calmer than ancient elves? I call BS.

Without his son around to keep him in check he would have killed Moira in an instant. He's always been the type of guy to run in and kill the enemies commanding his soldiers from the front lines even before the comic events.

He was that way. Until a recent drastic change.

Also you make it sound like they just swept through in the troll wars, wiping out all of the old troll empires. The troll wars had one of the old troll empires. The Amani Empire. They were beaten because the Arathi humans saw the trolls and decided to beat and recruit every strong tribe of humans they could find then pincered the bastards between the humans from the south and elves they had cornered in the north. The Gurubashi in the south end of the continent tore themselves apart.

Still I find it a very big feat for a freshly-made nation. Although, it happens all the time in Warcraft, there are winner races like humans and orcs and loser races like trolls... I just don't like it that trolls, dwarves and many other interesting races are just props for the magnificence of humans and orcs.

Last edited by Haven; 2013-01-15 at 10:50 PM.

"A NAME IS A CLOAK OF LETTERS THROWN UPON A MAN. IT MEANS NOTHING." - Transcendent One, Planescape: Torment.

Actually iirc, Saurfang does shit and Garrosh just bitches about stuff not getting done quicker.

He just takes the fame and glory after Wrath is over.

You need not go do shit yourself when you're a leader. In fact, leaders are supposed to make other do things according to their plan, which works in garrosh's case. And for the display of personal skill, remember the "GET. OFF. MY. SHIIIIIP!" moment when he just cleaved the face of a twilight dragon that was trying to tear down his zeppelin. Or the Stonetalon justice moment.

"A NAME IS A CLOAK OF LETTERS THROWN UPON A MAN. IT MEANS NOTHING." - Transcendent One, Planescape: Torment.

You think narrowly. It's not about being reasonably good vs. being randomly evil. It's about making hard decisions. By hard I mean decisions with no right answer, like Stratholme. Arthas' decision was a decision of a king, while Uther just stood and watched like a pussy he was (but he kept his hands clean). In fantasy, it's always easy for a king to go and pwn a dragon, it's a given fact. But it's not easy when someone else has to suffer. Good characters always miraculously avoid such situations and never make mistakes, and by mistakes I mean fatal mistakes with echoing consequences. How a character deals with such things is what defines a believable character, because mistakes and hard choices is what we, the real people, do. Merely displaying infinite courage while at the same time wearing plot armor is not enough. If he lost a limb in a fight, that would've been another talk, but he only got cool-looking scars. Other than his wife no one cares about, he's lost nothing - because he returned everything by swinging his plot-enchanted sword.

Characters like Sylvanas are different, because she's undergone believable changes, and she's flawed. She is cruel, cold, and manipulating. She failed, and not once, and it cost her - first, she was turned into a banshee, which made her bitter and obsessed with vengeance, then she betrayed (Garithos) and was betrayed (Putress and Varimathras), which cost her reputation and any trustworthiness she might've had, and then she was faced with either dying and letting all of her people die out, or walking a path that dangerously resembles that of her nemesis. And despite all her faults, she is the only reason why the nation of Forsaken was formed, still stands and even advances, and that is why she is venerated (by those who choose to).

King Varian Wrynn says: I was away for too long. My absence cost us the lives of some of our greatest heroes. Trash like you and this evil witch were allowed to roam free -- unchecked.
King Varian Wrynn says: The time has come to make things right. To disband your treacherous kingdom of murderers and thieves. Putress was the first strike. Many more will come.
King Varian Wrynn says: I've waited a long time for this, Thrall. For every time I was thrown into one of your damned arenas... for every time I killed a green-skinned aberration like you... I could only think of one thing.
King Varian Wrynn says: What our world could be without you and your twisted Horde... It ends now, Warchief.
King Varian Wrynn says: ATTACK! FOR STORMWIND! FOR BOLVAR! FOR THE ALLIANCE!

Sounds pretty bloodthirsty and not-so-level-headed to me, especially considering that he was addressing to the most peaceful orc ever. And right after that kingdom of murderers and thieves that is Horde in his eyes turns into a kingdom of mass murderers wiping out Alliance cities whole, he suddenly becomes more... calm and wise? Calmer than ancient elves? I call BS.

He was that way. Until a recent drastic change.

Still I find it a very big feat for a freshly-made nation. Although, it happens all the time in Warcraft, there are winner races like humans and orcs and loser races like trolls... I just don't like it that trolls, dwarves and many other interesting races are just props for the magnificence of humans and orcs.

lol Varian has suffered more than Arthas could have ever imagined. That spoiled prince has not gone through anything in his life before he turned into DK. He was raised as a prince. He was respected and protected by Uther with love like he was his child. You insulted Uther? Uther was not in charge so he couldn't do anything. He didn't want to be part of Arthas's slaughtering. If it was him who know if he may have figured out a way to save atleast 1 life. Varian used to be bloodthirsty but he has gone through evolution as a character in the books that made him what he is today. You should read Wolfheart. No wonder as childs when Arthas and Varian fight, Varian always beated the shit out of spoiled prince. What Arthas has always done was seeking other's attention. That's it.

You insulted Uther? Uther was not in charge so he couldn't do anything.

"My prince says I am dismissed from service? Okay, now I'll just sit here and watch as he slaughters an entire city, doing nothing myself. I can't do anything because I've been dismissed. Not even try to intervene or save someone, nope. And not even try to find a cure." The only fact that he's been dismissed excuses him nothing. He still had arms, legs, head, and his fancy Light magics working. He could've done something, fuck the orders. He did nothing.

He didn't want to be part of Arthas's slaughtering.

Oh yes, in that he succeeded. His hands stayed clean, his Light magic worked without falter, and he didn't have doubts, while Arthas went there and did what had to be done, however unimaginable that was. He stained his hands, consciousness and mind with blood and guilt, yet he saved Lordaeron a few days by destroying a future zombie army. Only true heroes are capable of such hard choices. Committing miracles is easy when you have plot armor, but in a lose-lose scenario a character truly develops.

Varian used to be bloodthirsty but he has gone through evolution as a character in the books that made him what he is today. You should read Wolfheart.

In the end, it was no better than the case of Garrosh. From one extreme to another, even in Wrath. "I'll kill you Thrall you green-skinned aberration!" - "Let a grieving father pass". Wtf?

"A NAME IS A CLOAK OF LETTERS THROWN UPON A MAN. IT MEANS NOTHING." - Transcendent One, Planescape: Torment.

Velen is over 25,000 years old and Anduin already taught him a lesson about living in the present. Blizzard is clearly making the point that just because you're old doesn't mean you know better than everyone else.

My great grandpa is about a hundred years old, does that mean I should take all of his negative opinions about black people to my heart? I mean he has a hundred years of life experience.

These aren't random people. It's not a random Sentinel with 10000 years of age, it's a 13000+ year old High Priestess. Velen isn't a random Vindicator, he's a 25000+ year old Priest of the Light. Experience always means something. Except in World of Warcraft, where brash, short-lived people are constantly showing aged, supposedly wise beings, that all their extended existence means dick. It's great for the feel-good generation in a world of everyone gets a prize to take to heart but it's rather crappy otherwise.
Experience means a lot. It means the difference between entry level salaries and top tier ones, for example.

It's nice that they show Varian developing. But it's done at the expense of Tyrande.

These aren't random people. It's not a random Sentinel with 10000 years of age, it's a 13000+ year old High Priestess. Velen isn't a random Vindicator, he's a 25000+ year old Priest of the Light. Experience always means something. Except in World of Warcraft, where brash, short-lived people are constantly showing aged, supposedly wise beings, that all their extended existence means dick. It's great for the feel-good generation in a world of everyone gets a prize to take to heart but it's rather crappy otherwise.
Experience means a lot. It means the difference between entry level salaries and top tier ones, for example.

It's nice that they show Varian developing. But it's done at the expense of Tyrande.

Ok, a lot of people have already pointed out this, but what expense to Tyrande's character? She has always been a brash impulsive woman and it has bitten her in the ass several times. She is high priestess not because she was elected to the position by the people for her outstanding qualities. She was simply Elune's favored servant. Velen is the prophet of the naaru, but think about it always being pulled along by the naaru and their prophecies doing nothing but helping your people run away in fear because the giant floating light crystals tell you to. Kinda takes you out of the moment always being told to run and get ready for tomorrow. It's thousands of years of experience, but what kind of experience? Nothing that paints them out of character when all this happens.

What bothers me is: if Garrosh was a good tactican and warrior as shown in WotLK and Cata, why did he stupidly change in MoP? I mean, there were no reasons to throw him down during Cataclysm, he was leadin his people better then Thrall (he had some problems with his allies, but even Vol'Jin said he will try to mend the wounds. After all, he was the one who said "I gonna kill you because I don't like you lulz").

Garrosh simply no longer gives a fuck how his enemies die as long as they die, it has nothing to do with being a "good tactican and warrior", in the little patience scenario Varian made it clear that won't fall for Garrosh's tricks again.

Theramore for example was a huge blow to the Alliance, assembling as much as possible high ranking Alliance military leaders and kill them in one blast?

Nice move but the way it was done is under moral terms horrible.

King Varian Wrynn says: There was a time where I would have done the same. But I've learned a lot over the years. I've fallen for too many of Garrosh's tricks.

Last edited by Kralljin; 2013-01-16 at 08:26 AM.

Too often, we are mistaken for druidic types. perhaps that's true for some shaman, but do not let yourself be plagued by the ignorant belief that we are always peaceful.
Nothing about what I do is harmonious. I command the elements to my will. There is nothing offered in return. I would have it no other way.

Ok, a lot of people have already pointed out this, but what expense to Tyrande's character? She has always been a brash impulsive woman and it has bitten her in the ass several times.

Not really. And that's the thing: Tyrande's character should've developed too. In combat she's always taken calculated risks, as one would expect, but the way Kosak presents it in the patience scenario, she would blindly storm the temple (when Night Elves are ambush fighters), sacrificing, arguably her entire Sentinel force (because Sentinels are ineffective cannon fodder against "superior Orcs") and probably had to rely on divine intervention from Elune to finish off what's left since all her forces are dead or dying. It doesn't fit the mould of someone who should be well versed in fighting the Orcs or even a Night Elf. She should be the one convincing Varian to set a trap, while Varian wants to go charging in.

Why?
Cause Night Elves are written as master ambushers, as canon.
Cause she knows the Orcs defend a fixed position and her Sentinels don't have any support to help them take it (no glaive launchers or cannons).
Ya, she can be aggressive, harassing and insulting the Orcs, instead she's a whiny little child who apparently can't wait to sacrifice a bunch of her own people while a human is more concerned with their well-being than she.
Cause Night Elves need to be shown they have *some* degree of competency in this damned story. Their lore has been overtaken by one-dimensional and overbearing druidic lore to the point where the two are inseparable. In Cata when it was the non-druid aspects of the race getting spotlight they are defeated most of the time, and what little victories they have come at high cost. And that's on home turf. They *need* to not be shown as perennial failures since Cataclysm, and yet they aren't.

Trials of the High King should be trials where *Varian* is learning from other Alliance races, important lessons. Rather it's Varian who's teaching other Alliance races the important lesson, so what exactly is the trial *he* is facing?

In the end, Kosak said Tyrande would do something epic in 5.1
This wasn't epic, unless fail is the word being described.

Honestly, the Night Elves need to lose Tyrande and Malfurion as leaders. They are ineffective, uninvested or plain stupid. Fandral was right, Tyrande has no idea how to lead her people. She still doesn't. It's just she's all they ever put forth with Night Elves so there's a glimmer of hope she'll stop sucking. Maiev is insane, Shandris will always be a support role and they don't even try to generate new and awesome characters. Well they fleshed Pained out well, then killed her. Saranna Skyglaive was just the same, minus IQ points for her big mouth.

It's nice that they show Varian developing. But it's done at the expense of Tyrande.

Originally Posted by Constellation

Trials of the High King should be trials where *Varian* is learning from other Alliance races, important lessons. Rather it's Varian who's teaching other Alliance races the important lesson, so what exactly is the trial *he* is facing?

Excellent points, I support them wholeheartedly.

"A NAME IS A CLOAK OF LETTERS THROWN UPON A MAN. IT MEANS NOTHING." - Transcendent One, Planescape: Torment.

So you're upset that they didn't change her character at all then? Not that there was some new detriment to her character. I'll give you that her character is a little too stupid for the position she's been in and how many times she's gotten a shit load of sentinels killed because of her impatience. That's how she's always been though. Her lack of development is another issue. She just happens to be around while we're shown how Varian has developed.

The trials are showing what Varian knows. What he's already learned from the constant face kicking the alliance has received from the horde. The asskicking the alliance has had to take to try and fight a war and come out with their humanity. The trials are for Varian to show the other races that he has learned from everything that's happened to him and prove to them they can rely on him. Notice how none of the bases in the big alliance campaigns have almost never been mainly night elf or draenei or worgen bases. They've been big human built fortresses with some dwarves. Hopefully that will change after the expansion.

And get off the whole "Humans and orcs get too much focus" bit. I know they get most of the attention. Think it's because the game that started the entire series was called 'Orcs & Humans'?

"My prince says I am dismissed from service? Okay, now I'll just sit here and watch as he slaughters an entire city, doing nothing myself. I can't do anything because I've been dismissed. Not even try to intervene or save someone, nope. And not even try to find a cure." The only fact that he's been dismissed excuses him nothing. He still had arms, legs, head, and his fancy Light magics working. He could've done something, fuck the orders. He did nothing.

Oh yes, in that he succeeded. His hands stayed clean, his Light magic worked without falter, and he didn't have doubts, while Arthas went there and did what had to be done, however unimaginable that was. He stained his hands, consciousness and mind with blood and guilt, yet he saved Lordaeron a few days by destroying a future zombie army. Only true heroes are capable of such hard choices. Committing miracles is easy when you have plot armor, but in a lose-lose scenario a character truly develops.

In the end, it was no better than the case of Garrosh. From one extreme to another, even in Wrath. "I'll kill you Thrall you green-skinned aberration!" - "Let a grieving father pass". Wtf?

wut? Arthas didn't saw the scourge destroyed Lordaeron. The scourge was attacking LD. He was the one who destroyed it. I think you should read more. Varian saw his father murdered before his own eyes. His kingdom was destroyed by rabid orcs. He faced all of that when he was a child. He had to go to LD for help. Again, what Arthas suffered were nothing compare to Varian. He always has a sense of honor within him. He is also a father himself. Why is it so hard to understand that he can let Saurfang get his son's corpse back?

Trials of the High King should be trials where *Varian* is learning from other Alliance races, important lessons. Rather it's Varian who's teaching other Alliance races the important lesson, so what exactly is the trial *he* is facing?

Chi-Ji says: A test! A trial of patience. Will the wolf behave as a warrior... or a King?

Chi-Ji says: A sword is the weapon of a warrior, but patience is the weapon of kings.
Chi-Ji says: This day brings victory, but more trials lie ahead...

In terms of Varian development this scenario would have worked without Tyrande anyway, it just shows that she like's to jump on the most obvious "solution" to a problem.

"They are mongrels and nothing more! They are responsible for Cenarius' death! I will be damned before I stand with them."

Too often, we are mistaken for druidic types. perhaps that's true for some shaman, but do not let yourself be plagued by the ignorant belief that we are always peaceful.
Nothing about what I do is harmonious. I command the elements to my will. There is nothing offered in return. I would have it no other way.

I think that the problem with warcraft writing is that is seems to target some characters wrapping majority of lore around them while leaving rest as half forgotten side-kicks.
The reason why we had do development for cairne and vol'jin pre cata was that thrall was filling all that space. Having them appear only to say "i agree with thrall" was pointless. As for alliance varian (at least for me) seems to be biggest writing mistake blizzard made. It's character that is so try hard to be "cool". Cool scars. Cool hair. Cool 4000% skilled 1337 drag0n d3capitation. And now with entire garrosh hate they decided to flip him around making him good, wise and nice king. Maybe he will grow a beard next patch ? Build megazord for gnomes ? Win drinking contest against council of three hammers ? Blizz should really try to spread lore more across all characters, especially with tools like scenarios and phasing.

wut? Arthas didn't saw the scourge destroyed Lordaeron. The scourge was attacking LD. He was the one who destroyed it.

That was due to his success against Mal'ganis actually. He managed to drive him out to Northrend (or so he thought). Meanwhile, that doesn't cancel the fact that about half of Lordaeron was ravaged by that time.

I think you should read more. Varian saw his father murdered before his own eyes. His kingdom was destroyed by rabid orcs. He faced all of that when he was a child. He had to go to LD for help.

In other words, he went through what every ordinary Stormwind survivor went through. Yes, there were other people in Stormwind, and yes, other people's siblings got killed too.

Again, what Arthas suffered were nothing compare to Varian.

Arthas made choices and sacrifices. Varian never did. He pwnd everything with his sword, solving all his problems. His rage issues might've been the flaw that would make him injust and thus more believable as a human being, but now he's magically perfect and devoid of all flaws.

He always has a sense of honor within him. He is also a father himself. Why is it so hard to understand that he can let Saurfang get his son's corpse back?

Because Saurfang is a green-skinned aberration, of course; one of the most prominent murderers and thieves in Thrall's kingdom, following Varian's own logic a couple of patches before.

"A NAME IS A CLOAK OF LETTERS THROWN UPON A MAN. IT MEANS NOTHING." - Transcendent One, Planescape: Torment.

You make it sound like Varian walked away from his gladiator days with no respect for any orc. He wasn't exactly burning with hatred for Reghar Earthfury. He even had a summit at Theramore where he was opening negotiations with the horde before the whole Northrend thing. It WAS kinda ruined by Garona attacking though. He even has a friend in the blood elves with Valeera. He's not a big enough piece of shit to deny a father his son's body just because he's an orc.

That was due to his success against Mal'ganis actually. He managed to drive him out to Northrend (or so he thought). Meanwhile, that doesn't cancel the fact that about half of Lordaeron was ravaged by that time.

In other words, he went through what every ordinary Stormwind survivor went through. Yes, there were other people in Stormwind, and yes, other people's siblings got killed too.

Arthas made choices and sacrifices. Varian never did. He pwnd everything with his sword, solving all his problems. His rage issues might've been the flaw that would make him injust and thus more believable as a human being, but now he's magically perfect and devoid of all flaws.

Because Saurfang is a green-skinned aberration, of course; one of the most prominent murderers and thieves in Thrall's kingdom, following Varian's own logic a couple of patches before.

What you said have nothing to do with amount of pain and suffering Varian has gone through compare to Arthas. Arthas has never sacrificed anything. He made his decision because he knew nothing better which there may have been. He chased Mal'ganis to NR because of his vengence as show by how he's willing to scarifice every life and killing his own battle companion just to kill Mal'ganis. You can't seriously compare Varian as a character with Arthas. Arthas is spoiled prince who think that everyone should care about him and do what he say. You know nothing about Varian if you judge him just because of 1 line of what he said. He agreed to talk with Thrall at the summit. He is a man with honor. He trashtalked many times out of his emotion. He may hate his enemies but he is not a kind person to throw away his honor just to win the war or trash on his enemies.