hi i'm gettin to like this forum, as you can probably tell, i have read and heard in a few places that age old line "i bet Aikido couldnt do well against a boxer", i have to disagree with this, it strikes me that these people who believe that to be fact are only getting half the picture, i was thinking about all the facts that supported this staement, and i think lateral thinking may be holding a lot of people back, what i mean by that is that a punch is a two part thing, first part is the punch being thrown, this is what most people see and try to defend against, but if thrown by a boxer, the boxer will not over commit, hence the problem, what i dont get is why the second part of the punch process isnt focused on, this is the part where the arm is retracted, and that is where the Akidoka should focus, i'm not saying that everyone studying Aikido should now only work on arm retractions, but its probably going to be easier to subdue an opponent that is trained in another fighting art, for one who would expect it, secondly unless its a double jab then chances are the use of that arm has expired and it is now a guard, and as we all know that if you are to the side of your attacker its pretty hard to punch effectively across the body at an opponent who is out of range.just my thoughts about a system i see more in every time i look

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A Punch only Hurts if it connects, be somewhere else before the connection is made

Does Aikido have any techniques to use against a retracting arm? I think that would be even harder to manage (in a grappling sense) than when it's coming at you. I know that Wing Chun trains a lot to "follow" the retracting arm with a struke of their own, but I am not familiar with similar stuff in Aikido.

_________________________"In case you ever wondered what it's like to be knocked out, it's like waking up from a nightmare only to discover it wasn't a dream." -Forrest Griffin

there are techniques for directing the opponents arm backwards, shionage is the one that comes to mind, i just think that this idea that if someone is a trained martial artist or fighter then Aikido wont work, personally i think that its probably the most effective style there is.

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A Punch only Hurts if it connects, be somewhere else before the connection is made

You were talking about a punch followed by a retraction.Shihonage is an overhead strike (think bottle, club). There are lots of dandy responses to that. Just field that striking arm before it starts on the way down.

Quote:You were talking about a punch followed by a retraction.Shihonage is an overhead strike (think bottle, club). There are lots of dandy responses to that. Just field that striking arm before it starts on the way down.

Are you sure about this? I believe that shoumen-uchi is an overhead strike or cut and shiho-nage is a throw with the focus on the striker's elbow or shoulder. It can be devastating and most of the deaths in Japan during aikido training have been caused by this throw, death coming from concussion as the head strikes the ground.

Quote:Does Aikido have any techniques to use against a retracting arm? I think that would be even harder to manage (in a grappling sense) than when it's coming at you. I know that Wing Chun trains a lot to "follow" the retracting arm with a struke of their own, but I am not familiar with similar stuff in Aikido.

The reason a boxer can throw a punch without overcommitting is that he is using that moment to bring the other hand into play. It's a huge mistake with a boxer to try and focus on grabbing his hands until you've first gotten him to commit. Focus instead on overall movement and positioning. For instance, slipping past him, and as he turns to face you, using THAT momentum for your techniques, or backing away from him at an oblique angle so that he MUST move towards you and reach with his punches. Bear in mind that boxers are used to people trying tricky footwork. Still, Aikido has the tools to deal with a boxer, if you train against boxers in a useful way.

Belvy,I don't know where you get your information, but you need an update. There are plenty of irimi techniques that use the retreating opponent's body structure and movement to implement throws and pins... in fact, most irimi techniques use that "unguarded moment" when someone is either advancing or retreating.

Learn the six basic techniques, and then use a few years of bokken practice, and you'll find plenty of aikido applications for "retreating opponents"... in fact, you'll help them retreat in many cases... usually with this effect on them ... especially with weapons (jo and bokken).

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What man is a man that does not make the world a better place?... from "Kingdom of Heaven"

All of my information comes straight out of Black Belt magazine, of course! hehe Seriously though, what you refer to as "retreating" above, I would define more as reacting. An opponent, or uke does not "retreat" because their attack is ineffective and nage is moving, they are reacting to the new situation and trying to regain their balance. Even in bokken, a step back isn't a "retreat". I'm always open to info updates though, so keep them coming. I'm going to reread my Webster's now and see what "retreat" means.