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View Poll Results: What to do about the 'Is Shaolin-Do for real?' thread

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Unlock IS-Dfr. Merge all S-D threads together so it clears 1000 posts!

There are people who spend 80-90 hours a week playing Guitar Hero....biggest waste of time I can think of. However I'm not going to get on a BB and tell them they are doing wrong.

Well, they are playing a game, not learning to play guitar.
They are having fun and developing their hand eye coordination and motor skills. And some places use it as therapy to keep alzheimer's from further developing.
You can switch to a regular hand held unit instead of the toy guitar and still be able to play (actually you can play the game better).

Are you saying that doing Shalin Do routines is like the equivalent of playing Guitar Hero?

Ha, I think you would get more out of playing Guitar Hero.

I have met quite a few young people (most females for some reason) that played Guitar Hero for a long time and then were able to learn real guitar pretty quickly, they understood the fretboard, fingering, timing, rhythm, melody, and so on.

Well, they are playing a game, not learning to play guitar.
They are having fun and developing their hand eye coordination and motor skills. And some places use it as therapy to keep alzheimer's from further developing.
You can switch to a regular hand held unit instead of the toy guitar and still be able to play (actually you can play the game better).

Are you saying that doing Shalin Do routines is like the equivalent of playing Guitar Hero?

Ha, I think you would get more out of playing Guitar Hero.

I have met quite a few young people (most females for some reason) that played Guitar Hero for a long time and then were able to learn real guitar pretty quickly, they understood the fretboard, fingering, timing, rhythm, melody, and so on.

What I am saying is that I don't care what kind of martial arts you are doing. And guess what? No one else really does either. In fact a 100 years from now there is not going to be anybody around that cared that you did martial arts, played guitar, played video game or anything. It's simply not important. It's not going to save lives. It's not a work of art that will survive the ages, it's just something you did and enjoyed.

In the same vein there are dozens of people studying SD that enjoy it. They absolutely don't care that you feel sad because they are doing it incorrectly. And guess what? The fact that you think they are doing it incorrectly doesn't mean anything. People are not going to stave because a group of folks are doing Shao-lin Do somewhere. Also, I don't know of anyone who's going to build a shine to honor you just because your're doing the "right" kung Fu!

What I am saying is that I don't care what kind of martial arts you are doing. And guess what? No one else really does either. In fact a 100 years from now there is not going to be anybody around that cared that you did martial arts, played guitar, played video game or anything. It's simply not important. It's not going to save lives. It's not a work of art that will survive the ages, it's just something you did and enjoyed.

In the same vein there are dozens of people studying SD that enjoy it. They absolutely don't care that you feel sad because they are doing it incorrectly. And guess what? The fact that you think they are doing it incorrectly doesn't mean anything. People are not going to stave because a group of folks are doing Shao-lin Do somewhere. Also, I don't know of anyone who's going to build a shine to honor you just because your're doing the "right" kung Fu!

boo hoo, poor little kitty. Everything ends up being just a dream or masturbation.

CMA is about 4,000 years old, and unless people all die, will still be here in 100 years.

Long story, but the guy who gave them to me said his teacher (the white guy) studied with Ie. Golden Tiger and some other SDers said he was full of **** because Ie never trained non-Chinese, so he sent me the pics for verification. They look an awful lot like the paintings, don't they?

It's hard to tell. It very well could be Ie. It very well could be someone else.

The thing is, Sin The has said he caught flak at first for teaching americans and that Ie would only teach Chinese. If this were true, then Sin The would either have not known about this guy or he is lying. If its the latter, why would he be lying? What does he benefit for that story?

Originally Posted by Oso

AND, yea, a good bit of it is about whether you can fight with what you know...kinda all of it is about that.

Sal, if you even watched the videos you would have known that he was showing basics that one would learn in their first few classes so your statement about it being advanced shows you aren't even caring to be objective.

What was fundamentally wrong with his horse stance? Was his back out of alingment and if so, what is proper? Were his feet wrong? His legs at the wrong angle?

I agree that SD is not pure CMA, that it has its own blending of body mechanics and power generation because it is a blending of CMA, JMA and IMA and then filtered trhough one man's (maybe two men's) understanding of the same and teaching it to a bunch of americans.

Originally Posted by Oso

AND, yea, a good bit of it is about whether you can fight with what you know...kinda all of it is about that.

It's hard to tell. It very well could be Ie. It very well could be someone else.

The thing is, Sin The has said he caught flak at first for teaching americans and that Ie would only teach Chinese. If this were true, then Sin The would either have not known about this guy or he is lying. If its the latter, why would he be lying? What does he benefit for that story?

Sin's stories don't exactly have a ton of credibility, you know? Maybe he thought it sounded more mystical. Earp also said there were several teachers there, and each only knew a couple of styles.

Of course, it might not even be Ie. But the facial structure is close to that of the paintings, especially the jawline.

But now you have them. Show them to Sin. Show them to the Soards. Or Leonard. Or whoever.

He most honors my style who learns under it to destroy the teacher. -- Walt Whitman

I am not sure I ever made that statement although I might have said he was full of poo poo for other reasons.

Well, that's a given.

Originally Posted by Golden Tiger

I will add that the old man in the pictures does not look to be build the same way as to the paintings. But that could be attributed to artistic impression.....

It could be due to artistic impression or have been painted at an earlier date. I agree, I always thought he would be a bigger man. Maybe I am letting my western mind get in the way of what I think an iron man master should look like.

themeecer actually shares a lot of the passion that Bruce Lee had about adopting techniques into your own way of 'expressing yourself.'
-shaolinarab
(Nicest thing ever said about me on these boards.)

There's elitists in every style. Karate guys will say the exact same thing about body mechanics, correct alignment, foundation, etc, except they believe that the Japanese or Okinawan way is the most correct and beneficial way for the body to move in order to produce the most strength and power, and that Chinese martial arts are wrong. And I'm sure the people who practice the "southern folk stuff" feel the same way about their styles' mechanics and postures. Every style thinks it is the most correct way. If it's an older style, it is the correct way because it came first and has been practiced for centuries. If it's a newer style, it's the correct way because they have made improvements over the years based on experience and education. So what style has it right?

Of course, if you don't devote enough time to anything, you won't have it "right" no matter which style you're trying to represent.

"I am a servant of the Secret Fire, wielder of the flame of Anor. The dark fire will not avail you, flame of Udun! Go back to the shadow, you cannot pass!"

It's hard to tell. It very well could be Ie. It very well could be someone else.

The thing is, Sin The has said he caught flak at first for teaching americans and that Ie would only teach Chinese. If this were true, then Sin The would either have not known about this guy or he is lying. If its the latter, why would he be lying? What does he benefit for that story?

Well, this guy is white ... but that doesn't mean he is American. Or maybe he was American but friendly enough with the people there that he was accepted. Maybe Ie's bias was against mainland Americans or simply a general mistrust of the west. Or maybe the bias wasn't his own and simply those of his contemporaries.

Ok, I am done speculating ... having a cookout for my students today and I need to go clean my grill.

themeecer actually shares a lot of the passion that Bruce Lee had about adopting techniques into your own way of 'expressing yourself.'
-shaolinarab
(Nicest thing ever said about me on these boards.)

It's hard to tell. It very well could be Ie. It very well could be someone else.

The thing is, Sin The has said he caught flak at first for teaching americans and that Ie would only teach Chinese. If this were true, then Sin The would either have not known about this guy or he is lying. If its the latter, why would he be lying? What does he benefit for that story?

He benefits by coming across as the hero, who has opened to the door to the west.
He becomes the sole key to obtaining this forbidden information. He becomes the only way to receive it. He gets more power and is seen as I an enlightened good guy that just wants to give westerners a chance.

There's elitists in every style. Karate guys will say the exact same thing about body mechanics, correct alignment, foundation, etc, except they believe that the Japanese or Okinawan way is the most correct and beneficial way for the body to move in order to produce the most strength and power, and that Chinese martial arts are wrong. And I'm sure the people who practice the "southern folk stuff" feel the same way about their styles' mechanics and postures. Every style thinks it is the most correct way. If it's an older style, it is the correct way because it came first and has been practiced for centuries. If it's a newer style, it's the correct way because they have made improvements over the years based on experience and education. So what style has it right?

Of course, if you don't devote enough time to anything, you won't have it "right" no matter which style you're trying to represent.

None of you can answer my four questions because none of you were taught it.

Basic foundational material is not elitism. It's core knowledge.
If one professes to teach CMA routines, then one should know what the core knowledge is and should be able to transmit it. Unless one doesn't know and is copying routines from books OR unless one is deliberately holding back information.

Sal, if you even watched the videos you would have known that he was showing basics that one would learn in their first few classes so your statement about it being advanced shows you aren't even caring to be objective.

What was fundamentally wrong with his horse stance? Was his back out of alignment and if so, what is proper? Were his feet wrong? His legs at the wrong angle?

I agree that SD is not pure CMA, that it has its own blending of body mechanics and power generation because it is a blending of CMA, JMA and IMA and then filtered trhough one man's (maybe two men's) understanding of the same and teaching it to a bunch of americans.

Well, for one, Sin The professes to teach NORTHERN SHAOLIN Routines, for the most part.
CMA, JMA, IMA is contradictory information, each one was developed based on the social and environmental factors of the region. Chimera-izing Northern CMA makes it ineffective and inefficient.

The horse stance is only emphasized in beginner training to strengthen the muscle skeletal structure and then they move on from there to what its real function and self defense use is for. The is no need for the deep standing still stance unless it is used for meditation purposes. The stances are never used like statues during movement of a routine, they are TRANSITIONAL MOVEMENTS ONLY.

I wasn't focusing on the horse stance, that was the least important thing to observe, it was his movements and his transitions and his muscle-skeletal state and his awareness of "WHY" things are the way they are (well, if he was really doing CMA, instead of this self conflicting hybrid).

What I have issue with all is all the core details are not there for the rest of the movements, not the stance per se, the stance is just a means to an end, it is not the end itself.
The stance isolated HENDERS self defense. You can have a perfect horse stance, so what? What do you do with it? That's important to know, and then how do you move on from there to full actualize one's self defense ability. Martial art is self defense, not stances from a movie.

Look, I am not trying to be all 'elite' and saying I am so much better than you all, if anyone thinks that then they are being defense.

Why don't we really talk about the how and why, why the real stuff really works and why this stuff doesn't. The mechanics of CMA.
(and sparring is artificial, it's not real self defense, it's a sport like thing)

Well, I'd like to see you answer my four questions that I gave in that previous post.