If this is your first visit, be sure to
check out the FAQ by clicking the
link above. You will have to register
before you can post: click the register link above to proceed. To start viewing messages,
select the forum that you want to visit from the selection below.

3.5 PrC: The French Mime P.E.A.C.H.

This is my first Prestige Class, please critique.

The French Mime

“Bards were divided. Lines were drawn in the sand. Conflict was inevitable. Weapons of mass destruction were created. Cover bands. Boy bands. Pop music. But worst of all, was the Classic French Mime.” - Duke Fernando of Tango, Bard.

We all know how to mime. You act something out, but instead of using an actual object, you act as if one is there. This is called miming, and people do it all the time.
But what if mimes could bend reality? What if we could change the universe simply by pretending it is different? What if simply by miming something, you make it real?
Born in the frenzy of war, the Mimes in this ancient order are masters of stealth and cunning. Their black and white painted face strikes fear into the hearts of those who oppose them. They are always silent, they are always ready, and they are always watching.
Since the war ended, the members of this ancient order have dwindled slowly, and mimes are always seeking to convert new people to their ways. And so the masters created the MimeCurse. Mimes can curse a black or white fashion accessory, like a scarf or a hat. Anyone who puts on one of these items will become a MimeSlave. These MimeSlaves have some rudimentary Mime powers, and do the bidding of their master.
They are resistant to magic and physical weapons, but they have one weakness: Speaking. If a Mime breaks his Oath of Silence then he loses all mime-powers, and all of his secret abilities.

Entry requirements:
Alignment: Any chaotic
Skills: 6 ranks are required in both Perform (act) and Sleight of Hands
Abilities: The average of a Mime’s DEX and CHA scores must be at least 16.

Table: The French Mime
{table=head]Level|BAB|Fort|Ref|Will |DR| SR|

Class Ability

|

Spells per Day

1st|

+1

|

+0

|

+3

|

+3

|

2

|

1

|

Mime, Oath of Miming

|

-

|
2nd|

+2

|

+1

|

+3

|

+3

|

2

|

2

|

Mime

|

+1 level of existing spellcasting class

|
3rd|

+2

|

+1

|

+4

|

+4

|

3

|

2

|

Mime

|

-

|
4th|

+3

|

+1

|

+4

|

+4

|

3

|

3

|

Mime

|

+1 level of existing spellcasting class

|
5th|

+4

|

+2

|

+5

|

+5

|

4

|

3

|

Mime

|

-

|
6th|

+5

|

+2

|

+5

|

+5

|

4

|

4

|

Mime

|

-

|
7th|

+5

|

+2

|

+6

|

+6

|

5

|

4

|

Mime

|

+1 level of existing spellcasting class

|
8th|

+6

|

+3

|

+6

|

+6

|

5

|

5

|

Mime, MimeCurse

|

-

|
9th|

+7

|

+3

|

+7

|

+7

|

6

|

5

|

Mime

|

+1 level of existing spellcasting class

|
10th|

+8

|

+3

|

+7

|

+7

|

6

|

6

|

Mime

|

-

|
11th|

+8

|

+4

|

+8

|

8

|

7

|

6

|

Mime

|

-

|
12th|

+9

|

4

|

8

|

+8

|

7

|

7

|

Mime, Master Mime

|

+1 level of existing spellcasting class

| [/table]

Hit Die: 1d6Weapon proficiency: Mimes are proficient only with Mime weapons. Once they become a Mime, they cannot use anything that is not mimed.Spells per Day/Spells Known: On certain Mime levels, if the character had a spellcasting class before Mimehood, then he gains new spells per day (and spells known, if applicable) as if he had also gained a level in whatever spellcasting class in which he could cast spells before he added the prestige class level. He does not, however, gain any other benefit a character of that class would have gained. If a character had more than one arcane spellcasting class before he became a Mime, he must decide to which class he adds each level of Mime for the purpose of determining spells per day.
However, a Mime cannot speak or use props, so a Mime can only cast spells if he has the Silent Spell feat, and cannot cast spells with the Still Spell feat. And, as all Mime objects are invisible, the effects of his spells are now invisible, and cannot be detected by any means. The effects of a spell would still be as before, like a fireball burning down a tree, but you would not see the fireball until it hit. The victim therefore suffers a penalty to any check attempting to dodge a spell equal to half the Mime’s caster level.Class skills: The class skills of a Mime are: Balance, Climb, Disguise, Escape Artist, Hide, Intimidate, Jump, Listen, Move Silently, Open Lock, Perform, Sense Motive, Sleight of Hand, Spot, Survival, Swim, Tumble, Use Rope. Mimes get 4+Int skill points.

Class Features

Mime: The French Mime can mime an object, animal, weapon, and anything else, by making a Mime check, as a standard action. This is 1d20 + levels in French Mime. The DC is decided by the DM according to how hard the subject of the mime would be to obtain in the real world, and how hard it is to mime. If he fails the check, then he still spends a standard action, but the mime is so poor that nobody can tell what he is miming, so the mime fails.
You cannot mime something which is as big as or larger than you in any direction.
A general guideline for deciding the DC would be:
DC 5: A simple item that it is very easy to Mime, because there is clear body language when using it, like eating a sandwich. Anybody would be able to see that you are eating a sandwich if your hands are by your mouth as if they were holding something flat and you are biting.
DC 15: An item that it is still quite clear what you are doing, but it could be a little hard to tell if not mimed well, like sweeping the floor with a broom. When mimed well, it is quite clear what you are doing, but somebody might just think you were waving your hands in a weird way.
DC 20: An item that even if you mime it very realistically, it would still be hard to tell exactly what you are miming because there are many things similar to it. For instance, if you were to draw a sword, it would be quite clear that you were drawing a sword, but it would be difficult to tell things like size, what type of sword, or if it was maybe a dagger or a spear.
DC 25: An item that is very hard to mime, and you cannot easily see what it is, like a dog. The Mime can pat it on the head, stroke it, etc, but it would be very hard to tell what it is he is miming.
DC 30: An item that the audience for the mime does not know what it is, and therefore would not recognise it even if he mimed it well.
At Lvl 1, the Mime can mime ordinary, mundane objects, and simple light weapons.
At Lvl 2, the Mime can mime ordinary, mundane objects, and simple weapons.
At Lvl 3, the Mime can mime ordinary, mundane objects, simple weapons, and common animals.
At Lvl 4, the Mime can mime rare or magical objects, simple weapons, and common animals.
At Lvl 5, the Mime can mime rare or magical objects, martial weapons, and common animals.
At Lvl 6, the Mime can mime rare or magical objects, martial weapons, and all animals.
At Lvl 7, the Mime can mime rare or magical objects, light exotic weapons, and all animals.
At Lvl 8, the Mime can mime rare or magical objects, light exotic weapons, all animals, and barriers, like a wall.
At Lvl 9, the Mime can mime rare or magical objects, exotic weapons, all monsters mundane monsters and creatures, and barriers, like a wall.
At Lvl 10, the Mime can mime rare or magical objects, exotic weapons, all magical creatures, and barriers, like a wall.
At Lvl 11, the Mime can mime rare or magical objects, exotic weapons, all magical creatures, other people, and barriers, like a wall.
At Lvl 12, the Mime can mime anything.
Mimes can use something they are miming in a skill check, like miming a rope then making a Use Rope skill check, or miming a Key then using an Open Lock skill check. When they do this, then they make a Mime check as usual instead of a skill check, but they add the skill check modifier to the roll. So the roll becomes 1d20 + levels in mime + modifier for appropriate skill. They must make this roll again, but with the DC lower by 4, every round until the mime ends.
There is no limit to the number of times a Mime can mime a day, however they can only mime one thing at a time.
The moment a Mime no longer gives any indication that something he has mimed is there, then it disappears. But if he still acts as if it is there, then it stays. For instance, if he were to drop something, and then do nothing to show that it is on the floor, like carefully stepping over it, or kicking it, etc, then it will disappear. But if he mimed a barrier and made a low ceiling above his head, and even though he would not be touching it, he would be bent over and this would show that it is there.

Damage Reduction: French Mimes have damage reduction that progresses as their level rises. The progression is shown in Table: The French Mime. This damage reduction effective against all weapon types except Mimed weapons. Mimed weapons deal extra damage to a Mime equal to their damage reduction.
Any opponent can make a knowledge (local) check, with a DC of 15. If they succeed, then they know exactly what a Mime is, what it can do, and if an opponent has the requirements to be a Mime, then they can make a Mime check like a Lvl 1 Mime during the battle, with a DC of 20. Therefore, a noble opponent of true heart has a chance to beat a Mime at their own game, by pulling out a Mime weapon of his own.

Spell Resistance: French Mimes have spell resistance that progresses as their level rises. The progression is shown in Table: The French Mime. This spell resistance is effective against all magic, except for Lawful aligned spells, on which the spell resistance has no effect.

Oath of Miming: In the initiation ceremony to become a French Mime, a Mime takes an Oath of Miming. After he makes this Oath, he must mime everything. He cannot use any physical object that he has the power to mime. He has no belongings, and no weapons. He only has what he can mime. He can never talk again, including laughing, crying, yelling in pain, or anything like that. All these things must be mimed silently. If he ever speaks, or uses a prop, then he has broken his Oath, and he becomes a Fallen Mime, commonly known as a Circus Freak. Circus Freaks have a -2 on all rolls, he cannot mime, and he loses all spell resistance and damage reduction.
He can only become a Mime once he has repented of this sin. This process, called Mime redemption. In order to undergo redemption, you need to seek out a Master Mime, one of the strongest Mimes, and retrain with them.
Once a Mime makes his Oath, they aquire the Painted Face. This is special black and white face paint, unique to Mimes. It cannot be removed by any means other than death. Even if you lose your Mime-hood, and become a Circus Freak, you still keep the Painted Face as a mark of shame.
In addition to the black and white Painted Face, Mimes must only wear the colours black and white.

MimeCurse: Lvl 8 French Mimes can curse a fashion accessory, like a hat, or a scarf. As long as it is either black or white, and really unfashionable, a Mime can curse it by making a Mime check with the same DC as if they were miming this object. Once cursed, this object will turn anyone who wears it into a MimeSlave. They make a will save against this, with a DC of twice the Lvl of the Mime. They acquire the painted face, and lose all free will. They gain all the powers of a Mime, but they become like a mindless zombie, doing the bidding of the Mime who cursed them. Their effective Mime Lvl is half the Lvl of the Mime who cursed them. The only way to cure this MimeCurse is for the MimeSlave to break the Oath of Miming. They are then returned to normal, with no memory of what happened. If a Mime breaks the Oath, all his MimeSlaves are returned to normal with no memory of what happened.
A Mime can only have a number of MimeSlaves equal to half of his level at a time.
However, a Mime can only do this once a day.

Master Mime: At 12th Lvl, a French Mime becomes a Master Mime. Now one of the elder masters of the ancient order of Mimes, you can learn no more about Miming, and instead become one of it’s teachers. You can train new Mimes, recruiting more into your ranks, and Circus Freaks can come to you for redemption.
In the ceremony for redemption, there is silence for one minute as you meditate, then the Circus Freak remakes their Oath. Then there is another minute of silence as the newly redeemed Mime meditates.
In addition to this, your MimeCurse is permanent and cannot be broken. If your MimeSlaves break the Oath, then you can simply redeem them.
However, with great power comes great responsibility, and this cannot be trusted with Oathbreakers. If a Master Mime ever breaks his Oath, then when he is redeemed he loses the Master Mime ability.

Re: 3.5 PrC: The French Mime P.E.A.C.H.

Okay, it's your first homebrew so I'll try to not be too harsh. (plus you make me discover "standard action")

Prereq: Asking for an average of ability is unique I'll give you that but I don't see the need. In addition ability score rarelly factored in Prc prereq because you don't always control them.

Table: The code for the table can be found here or you can use that site.

Second your Bab and save are weird, they normally follow precise formula. Bab is either 1/2, 3/4 or equal to class level. And Save are either 1/3 or 2+1/2 class level.

Your missing the class Hit dice.

proficiency: does it mean that they lose any proficiency they have before ? Can they mime exotic weapon and use them ?

Spells: That's way too short. Look in the Dmg or the Srd to see the standard format used to progress spellcasting.

Skills: You give a skill list but no skill points.

Mime: Lot of problem there.
-You should give example of DC for each type of item or creature.
-Need more detail about the item create. It is visible ? can it be destroyed , Can you create item of any size ? How long do they last (this is important) ? Can other creature use them ? If you create a creature does it obey you ? Do any item dissapear if you go to far from it ? can you create multiple item at the same times ? If you create an inteligent creature, can it come with class level ?
You need to put limit and guidline on that.

Damage reduction: That's original. How can an opponent know that he can mime a weapon ?

Spell resistance: Okay why not.

Oath: okay, flavorfull at least. Maybe add the need for an atonment spell too. Do you broke the oath if a foe use dominate person on you and force you to speak ?

Mime curse: That need more detail and is way too powerfull. You need to stat if the creature get a save to avoid the curse, what sort of control the mime can have on the cursed creature ? how many cursed creature can it control (based on Hit dice like turn undead coul work) ? Does the curse limit a creature action (only mime ability or anything) ? If speaking broke the curse what's stopping the creature from speaking immediatly to get free ?

Master mime: Yeah, lack detail too. What do you need to do to redeem a circus freak ?

For a first try it's not too bad, but it need lot of work. that said I like the concept.

Re: 3.5 PrC: The French Mime P.E.A.C.H.

Okay, it's your first homebrew so I'll try to not be too harsh. (plus you make me discover "standard action")

Prereq: Asking for an average of ability is unique I'll give you that but I don't see the need. In addition ability score rarelly factored in Prc prereq because you don't always control them.

Well, I didn't know if it should be based on DEX or CHA so I just put the average of both. And I like the way that, if you had really bad DEX, but great CHA, you could still do it because the CHA makes up for the DEX, or visa versa.

Table: The code for the table can be found here or you can use that site.

Second your Bab and save are weird, they normally follow precise formula. Bab is either 1/2, 3/4 or equal to class level. And Save are either 1/3 or 2+1/2 class level.

Your missing the class Hit dice.

I originally wrote the table in HTML code, which I am fairly familiar with. When I discovered this didn't work, I used an internet converter which said it converted HTML to a code used of forums. Apparently, though, this was not the case.

As for BAB, I gave the Mime 3/4 of the level for the first few, saw the pattern, and just continued the pattern. In retrospect, I really should have checked all the way.

Problem is, I really didn't know what to do for BAB or saves. This class didn't have anything to give it particularly good or particularly bad of any of them, so I just gave them something inbetween high saves and low saves and hoped. What do you think I should do for HD, BAB, or saves? I asked somebody else, and they said look at an existing class that is similar to mine. But I couldn't think of anything that was similar!

proficiency: does it mean that they lose any proficiency they have before ? Can they mime exotic weapon and use them ?

Details for this are given in the Mime section and the Oath section. At higher levels they can mime exotic weapons, but as it says in the Oath, they cannot use anything now, they must mime it. So they lose all ability to use an exotic weapon until they can mime it. Once they can mime it, though, they can mime any exotic weapon they want at any time.
Should this be phrased more clearly?

Spells: That's way too short. Look in the Dmg or the Srd to see the standard format used to progress spellcasting.

If the Mime class had any details about spells, then it would be much too short. But this is just saying that they should continue with spellcasting from a previous class, if any. All details would be in their previous class, Mime changes nothing, only that don't get new spells every level.

Skills: You give a skill list but no skill points.

Oops. Um, how many skill points per level would you recommend? As I said before, I don't really know what to compare this to.

Mime: Lot of problem there.
-You should give example of DC for each type of item or creature.
-Need more detail about the item create. It is visible ? can it be destroyed , Can you create item of any size ? How long do they last (this is important) ? Can other creature use them ? If you create a creature does it obey you ? Do any item dissapear if you go to far from it ? can you create multiple item at the same times ? If you create an inteligent creature, can it come with class level ?
You need to put limit and guidline on that.

I'll go edit that as soon as I've posted this.

Damage reduction: That's original. How can an opponent know that he can mime a weapon ?

This was supposed to be like when, in the video, Fernando drew a Mime weapon against the Mime. I suppose the DM would tell them they could?

Spell resistance: Okay why not.

Oath: okay, flavorfull at least. Maybe add the need for an atonment spell too. Do you broke the oath if a foe use dominate person on you and force you to speak ?

Yes you do. I want speaking to be the main weakness of the Mimes, and a lot easier to do than falling like a paladin is. However, that also means it should be easier to regain Mimehood, so I don't want to add anything else to this that would make it harder.

Well, I never intended this to have any importance other than fluff. I just didn't know anywhere else to put it other than there. Is that place just for mechanics stuff?

Mime curse: That need more detail and is way too powerfull. You need to stat if the creature get a save to avoid the curse, what sort of control the mime can have on the cursed creature ? how many cursed creature can it control (based on Hit dice like turn undead coul work) ? Does the curse limit a creature action (only mime ability or anything) ? If speaking broke the curse what's stopping the creature from speaking immediatly to get free ?

Hmm, there are quite a lot of problems here that I hadn't thought of. I'll edit all this after I've finished this post.

Master mime: Yeah, lack detail too. What do you need to do to redeem a circus freak ?

Nothing much, the whole point was supposed to be the pilgrimage of seeking them out when you have lost all your power, rather than doing anything when you get there. It's basically just remaking your Oath with them there.

For a first try it's not too bad, but it need lot of work. that said I like the concept.

Thanks so much for all the feedback.

In addition, how is this, balance-wise? When I told my brother about this prestige class, who is very good at this sort of thing, he immediately said it was too overpowered, so I slowed down the Mimes, staggering the abilities a lot so he wouldn't get infinite power straight away. Does this work? Is it still balanced?

Re: 3.5 PrC: The French Mime P.E.A.C.H.

Originally Posted by Zolkabro

Well, I didn't know if it should be based on DEX or CHA so I just put the average of both. And I like the way that, if you had really bad DEX, but great CHA, you could still do it because the CHA makes up for the DEX, or visa versa.

Okay, your choice. Just one thing that I've just realised as written you can enter the class at first level. In that case it's not really a Prc. I think you should put a skill rank requirment. Perhaps craft (8 ranks) everyone got craft and it mean that you can only enter a 6th level.

I originally wrote the table in HTML code, which I am fairly familiar with. When I discovered this didn't work, I used an internet converter which said it converted HTML to a code used of forums. Apparently, though, this was not the case.

Yeah, you need a special code for the gitp forum.

Problem is, I really didn't know what to do for BAB or saves. This class didn't have anything to give it particularly good or particularly bad of any of them, so I just gave them something inbetween high saves and low saves and hoped. What do you think I should do for HD, BAB, or saves? I asked somebody else, and they said look at an existing class that is similar to mine. But I couldn't think of anything that was similar!

I think we can compare the Mime to a Bard. A versatile class able to do multiple thing. So 3/4 bab work fine and as fort saves, well a good Will save make sense after all the Mime impose is Will into the world so it must be strong.

Details for this are given in the Mime section and the Oath section. At higher levels they can mime exotic weapons, but as it says in the Oath, they cannot use anything now, they must mime it. So they lose all ability to use an exotic weapon until they can mime it. Once they can mime it, though, they can mime any exotic weapon they want at any time.
Should this be phrased more clearly?

Yes, I think it need clarification. Like "the mime lose any and all weapon proficiency it may already posses and instead become proficient with any weapon he is able to Mime"

If the Mime class had any details about spells, then it would be much too short. But this is just saying that they should continue with spellcasting from a previous class, if any. All details would be in their previous class, Mime changes nothing, only that don't get new spells every level.

I see what you mean but their is a specific language to use when you want a Prc to progress spellcasting. Here an example taken from the archmage Prc:

Spells per Day/Spells Known: When a new archmage level is gained, the character gains new spells per day (and spells known, if applicable) as if he had also gained a level in whatever arcane spellcasting class in which he could cast 7th-level spells before he added the prestige class level. He does not, however, gain any other benefit a character of that class would have gained. If a character had more than one arcane spellcasting class in which he could cast 7th-level spells before he became an archmage, he must decide to which class he adds each level of archmage for the purpose of determining spells per day.

Oops. Um, how many skill points per level would you recommend? As I said before, I don't really know what to compare this to.

2+int or 4+int should work. And perhaps add bluff to their list it make sense.

This was supposed to be like when, in the video, Fernando drew a Mime weapon against the Mime. I suppose the DM would tell them they could?

Relying on the Dm for thing like that isn't great, if only because it add more work for him. Perhaps "A creature fighting a Mime can ,once per encounter, make a Knowledge (local) check as to recognize the Mime for what he is. The DC of the check is 15. If he succed on the check he automatically know that only Mime weapon can overcome a Mime damage reduction and he can attempt to mimic the mime to create a weapon for himself. He can only create weapon with wich he is proficient this way"

Something like that for example.

Yes you do. I want speaking to be the main weakness of the Mimes, and a lot easier to do than falling like a paladin is. However, that also means it should be easier to regain Mimehood, so I don't want to add anything else to this that would make it harder.

Okay.

Well, I never intended this to have any importance other than fluff. I just didn't know anywhere else to put it other than there. Is that place just for mechanics stuff?

Yeah, it's mostly for mechanical effect you could perhaps add it to the oath ?

Nothing much, the whole point was supposed to be the pilgrimage of seeking them out when you have lost all your power, rather than doing anything when you get there. It's basically just remaking your Oath with them there.

Okay, in that case you just need to say what type of action is need to redeem a circus freak. At least a full-round action perhaps even one minute of concentration so it's not too trivial.

In addition, how is this, balance-wise? When I told my brother about this prestige class, who is very good at this sort of thing, he immediately said it was too overpowered, so I slowed down the Mimes, staggering the abilities a lot so he wouldn't get infinite power straight away. Does this work? Is it still balanced?

Balance wise it's really powerful. I would recommand removing a few level of spellcasting progression (like 1st, 6th and 12th ?)
It will depend on the detail you add but at the moment I can, as soon as 3rd level, create an entiere army of animal to fight by my side. When you get mime curse you can create an army of slave. You can create magic item so it's easy to create powerful item.
It need limitation to be in any way viable.

Re: 3.5 PrC: The French Mime P.E.A.C.H.

All changes made. Please recritique.

Thanks for all the feedback.

Originally Posted by zagan

And perhaps add bluff to their list it make sense.

How can they bluff without talking?

Balance wise it's really powerful. I would recommand removing a few level of spellcasting progression (like 1st, 6th and 12th ?)
It will depend on the detail you add but at the moment I can, as soon as 3rd level, create an entiere army of animal to fight by my side. When you get mime curse you can create an army of slave. You can create magic item so it's easy to create powerful item.
It need limitation to be in any way viable.

I've added a lot of limitations now, is it balanced okay?

Originally Posted by Phasefire

Very good,
great job on the prestige class.
I originally thought of the mime as similar to a Wraith or undead but you've definitely shown the origins of the creature.

I originally thought of them like a wraith, but that wouldn't work so well as a prestige class as I wanted good aligned Mimes as well as evil ones.

It makes sense to build it like a bard, as bards are the one who created or became them in the Clown wars.

I suppose so, but Mimes are more dextrous than Bards. They are centred equally around DEX and CHA rather than almost entirely on CHA.

I like the idea of a foe being able to dominate a mime and forcing him to speak therefore removing his powers.

Still great job, Joanna has sent you some links to some photos we uploaded with a creative commons license so you can use em.

Thanks a lot!

I've tryed to stay as close to your original Mime as I can and not leave any details out, is there anything about Mimes I have missed?

As far as I know, the only think I've changed is making Mimes creatures of chaos rather than darkness so that good aligned players can still use them. Evil PrCs never really get as much use out of them.

I really do love the Standard Action series, and I wish I could donate, but my parents say it isn't worth the money and I'm not old enough to do things like that without their permission. *sigh*

Re: 3.5 PrC: The French Mime P.E.A.C.H.

Let's see:
for the prereq 5 ranks aren't enough, you have max ranks at level 5 (because you got 4 at first level)

the table is now readable so that's progress.

Mime: the size limitation is good, help a lot. The one at time limitation is good too.
I still think you need an Hit dice limitation on what sort of creature you can mime. Also we still don't know what kind of control you have on mimed creature.

mimecurse: much better with a will save and number limit.

I think that now it's roughly playable, with far less balance issue.
That said if you want to continue hombrewing I recommand that you look at what is being done on the forum, there's a lot of great homebrewer here. Thing like the gitp prc contest gove great example.
Also it would help if you knew the game really well, it get the feeling that you're missing some of the basic. Good luck.

Although I have to ask... why is there a spellcasting progression? This seems like a rogue-type class... not to mention the fact that you can't speak means you'd have to take Silent Spell to be able to cast without breaking your mime oath.

I'd replace the special mime check with a Perform: Mime skill check, and take away the ability to mime magic items. That just seems open to all kinds of broken madness. Instead, have your mime items bypass various forms of DR as your class level increases. Maybe give a scaling enchantment value for weapons and armor.

Originally Posted by Grod_The_Giant

Grod's Law: You cannot and should not balance bad mechanics by making them annoying to use

Although I have to ask... why is there a spellcasting progression? This seems like a rogue-type class... not to mention the fact that you can't speak means you'd have to take Silent Spell to be able to cast without breaking your mime oath.

I'd replace the special mime check with a Perform: Mime skill check, and take away the ability to mime magic items. That just seems open to all kinds of broken madness. Instead, have your mime items bypass various forms of DR as your class level increases. Maybe give a scaling enchantment value for weapons and armor.

Thank you, but the extra columns I was referring too are Damage Reduction and Spell Resistance.

And I think making Mime weapons bypass DR makes them rather too overpowered, something I've been having trouble with from the start.

Re: 3.5 PrC: The French Mime P.E.A.C.H.

If you are going to give this a spellcasting progression, then you should make the ability to cast spells (arcane or divine) at a certain level one of the prerequisites. I don't see this as a spellcasting class either. I'd recommend removing the portion where you say add +1 level of existing class to the chart. The mime can't cast any spells that have a verbal component unless he or she has the Silent Spell feat. However, bard spells cannot be enhanced using Silent Spell feat.

The prerequisite of Perform should really be Act (Mime) as that is a standard skill.

Debby

Last edited by Debihuman; 2011-10-28 at 11:50 AM.

P.E.A.C.H. Please Evaluate And Critique Honestly. Being nicer and kinder doesn't hurt either. Note I generally only critique 3.5 and Pathfinder material.
Please, please, please when using non-core material, cite to the books. There are too many books to wade through to find the one with the feat, special ability or spell you use.my creations in homebrew signature thread

Re: 3.5 PrC: The French Mime P.E.A.C.H.

Originally Posted by Debihuman

If you are going to give this a spellcasting progression, then you should make the ability to cast spells (arcane or divine) at a certain level one of the prerequisites. I don't see this as a spellcasting class either. I'd recommend removing the portion where you say add +1 level of existing class to the chart. The mime can't cast any spells that have a verbal component unless he or she has the Silent Spell feat. However, bard spells cannot be enhanced using Silent Spell feat.

The prerequisite of Perform should really be Act (Mime) as that is a standard skill.

Debby

I put the partial spellcastin progressions as a thing only for Mimes who had a spellcasting class beforehand, so I don't want to make it a prequisite.

However, I hadn't thought of the Silent Spell issue, and this has given me an idea...

EDIT: I have now edited my idea into the first post. Please read the spells section.

Note: I think ALL prestige classes that allow a class to gain a level of spellcasting should have the prerequisite of a spellcasting class because it is an unfair advantage to spellcasters over non-spellcasters. I am calling shenanigans over this. It is blatantly unfair.

Edit: Removed "Special" Column. DR and SR don't have "+" with their numbers.

Debby

Last edited by Debihuman; 2011-10-28 at 05:31 PM.

P.E.A.C.H. Please Evaluate And Critique Honestly. Being nicer and kinder doesn't hurt either. Note I generally only critique 3.5 and Pathfinder material.
Please, please, please when using non-core material, cite to the books. There are too many books to wade through to find the one with the feat, special ability or spell you use.my creations in homebrew signature thread

Note: I think ALL prestige classes that allow a class to gain a level of spellcasting should have the prerequisite of a spellcasting class because it is an unfair advantage to spellcasters over non-spellcasters. I am calling shenanigans over this. It is blatantly unfair.

Debby

Hmm, not sure, I'll think about that one.

Also, there is now an extra column, the "special" column. I would get rid of it myself, but I don't have a clue how this forum does tables. In the past I've just used presets, I don't know how to add and take away columns.

Re: 3.5 PrC: The French Mime P.E.A.C.H.

Originally Posted by Zolkabro

Also, there is now an extra column, the "special" column. I would get rid of it myself, but I don't have a clue how this forum does tables. In the past I've just used presets, I don't know how to add and take away columns.

Re: 3.5 PrC: The French Mime P.E.A.C.H.

Okay, revamped the table so you can use it. I generally copy the copy into a word file so that all the special characters show up and edit it from there.

Debby

P.E.A.C.H. Please Evaluate And Critique Honestly. Being nicer and kinder doesn't hurt either. Note I generally only critique 3.5 and Pathfinder material.
Please, please, please when using non-core material, cite to the books. There are too many books to wade through to find the one with the feat, special ability or spell you use.my creations in homebrew signature thread

Re: 3.5 PrC: The French Mime P.E.A.C.H.

The Perform skill prerequisite should be narrowed to Perform (Act) since that covers Mime.

Debby

P.E.A.C.H. Please Evaluate And Critique Honestly. Being nicer and kinder doesn't hurt either. Note I generally only critique 3.5 and Pathfinder material.
Please, please, please when using non-core material, cite to the books. There are too many books to wade through to find the one with the feat, special ability or spell you use.my creations in homebrew signature thread

Re: 3.5 PrC: The French Mime P.E.A.C.H.

While this is an interesting prestige class, I'm not sure it is fundamentally playable. Not being able to speak or to use weapons except for mimed weapons would make playing difficult.Telepathy isn't speaking so there is a way to bypass the "speaking" clause.

Sure you can mime a sword but can you mime a +2 flaming sword? I wouldn't think so. Furthermore, I really think you should eliminate this sentence: "He has no belongings, and no weapons. He only has what he can mime." Unless you force mimes to wander around completely naked, they should have belongings, especially since it means they don't have spell components. Not having money and only being able to use mimed money will surely lead to trouble. The gp that disappears is fun the first few times. After that, it will stop being fun and just be annoying. It's too restrictive. Maybe limit them by Vow of Poverty or something.

Debby

P.E.A.C.H. Please Evaluate And Critique Honestly. Being nicer and kinder doesn't hurt either. Note I generally only critique 3.5 and Pathfinder material.
Please, please, please when using non-core material, cite to the books. There are too many books to wade through to find the one with the feat, special ability or spell you use.my creations in homebrew signature thread

Re: 3.5 PrC: The French Mime P.E.A.C.H.

Originally Posted by Debihuman

The Perform skill prerequisite should be narrowed to Perform (Act) since that covers Mime.

Debby

Done.

Originally Posted by Debihuman

While this is an interesting prestige class, I'm not sure it is fundamentally playable. Not being able to speak or to use weapons except for mimed weapons would make playing difficult.Telepathy isn't speaking so there is a way to bypass the "speaking" clause.

Sure you can mime a sword but can you mime a +2 flaming sword? I wouldn't think so. Furthermore, I really think you should eliminate this sentence: "He has no belongings, and no weapons. He only has what he can mime." Unless you force mimes to wander around completely naked, they should have belongings, especially since it means they don't have spell components. Not having money and only being able to use mimed money will surely lead to trouble. The gp that disappears is fun the first few times. After that, it will stop being fun and just be annoying. It's too restrictive. Maybe limit them by Vow of Poverty or something.

Debby

What that post has told me is that I need to put things clearer.

If he offers somebody spell components are enough. money, and mimes this money, then the money for all intents and purposes becomes real. If he casts a spell and mimes the spell components, then he can still cast the spell, as mimed components are enough.

Miming is almost like hypnosis in a way, the people looking will believe he has the actual object. Do you think I should make the object he is miming appear as a ghostly version of the object?

And about the +2 flaming sword, do you think I should enable miming magic weapons at a higher level?

Re: 3.5 PrC: The French Mime P.E.A.C.H.

Originally Posted by Zolkabro

What that post has told me is that I need to put things clearer.

If he offers somebody spell components are enough. money, and mimes this money, then the money for all intents and purposes becomes real. If he casts a spell and mimes the spell components, then he can still cast the spell, as mimed components are enough.

Basically, you force the mime into committing evil acts (stealing). Furthermore, as soon as the mime pays for a drink and walks back to the table he is no longer giving any intent as to the gp so it disappears. This will be bad for the PC and probably the whole party. Intent means really that he needs to think about it and I wouldn't want to be the DM who starts making the mime make Concentration checks all the time. It would not be fun.

Miming is almost like hypnosis in a way, the people looking will believe he has the actual object." Do you think I should make the object he is miming appear as a ghostly version of the object?

Again, this can be construed as an evil act. Fooling people to save lives isn't bad but fooling them for routine things is. Plus, you'll have whole towns putting up "mimes not welcome" signs as they've all been fleeced in one way or another. I see a town full of mimes in stocks in the future. Ghostly items don't work for the same reason.

And about the +2 flaming sword, do you think I should enable miming magic weapons at a higher level?

Allowing them to mime magic items is a horrifically bad idea. The mime will always have the perfect weapon at hand. That's not fair to combat characters. Do you really want a mime with a +5 bane, flaming, ghost touch, keen, vorpal sword? Because if he can, he will.

Here's the thing: If the mime mimes something it should be real and stay real but it should be limited by gp value (see below for details on this) Miming money is still weird because how do you mime the difference between a copper piece and a gold piece? I guess you could play out biting it for gold, but this will just give everyone a headache after a while.

Here is what I recommend for the mime. Give the mime simple weapon proficiency but no armor and no shields. A mime is considered to be proficient in any mimed weapon.

Limit the mime's ability to mime items by gp value. A mime can mimic up to 10 gp value per day per level of mime. So if he pays with mimicked gold, the gold is for all purposes real. He'll never be broke but he can't get rich quick this way either.

As for not having belongings, that's too harsh as the class already has a mute clause. I'd get rid of it altogether. Let the mime have a normal amount of stuff like the rest of the party and rely on his mime ability when he doesn't.

[Edit] Remove the props clause from the oath of mining or every mime who has mime curse will auto fail.

Just to make things easier: put some space between paragraphs and separate mime curse and mime slave into two words.

Here is how I think Oath of Miming should look

Oath of Miming: In the initiation ceremony to become a French Mime, a Mime takes an Oath of Miming. He can never talk again, including laughing, crying, yelling in pain, or anything like that. All these things must be mimed silently. If he ever speaks, then he has broken his Oath, and he becomes a Fallen Mime, commonly known as a Circus Freak. Circus Freaks have a -2 on all rolls, and he loses all spell resistance and damage reduction.

A Circus Freak can only become a French Mime once he has repented of this sin. This process, called Mime Redemption. In order to undergo redemption, the Circus Freak needs to seek out a Master Mime, one of the strongest Mimes, and retrain with them. This process takes one week.

Once a Mime makes his Oath, he or she acquires the Painted Face. This is special black and white face paint, unique to Mimes. It cannot be removed by any means other than death. Even if you lose your Mime-hood, and become a Circus Freak, you still keep the Painted Face as a mark of shame.
In addition to the black and white Painted Face, Mimes must only wear the colors black and white. A Mime who disguises his painted face takes a 2 penalty to his Perform skill. A mime who wears non-approved colors takes a -2 penalty to his Sleight of Hand skill.

[edit] Disguise should NOT be on the mime's skills. They have to wear their face paint. In fact, Intimidate shouldn't be there either.

This should be the skill list: Balance, Climb, Concentration, Escape Artist, Jump, Move Silently, Open Lock, Perform (Act), Sleight of Hand, Tumble, and Use Rope.

[Edit] change this:

The moment a Mime no longer gives any indication that something he has mimed is there, then it disappears. But if he still acts as if it is there, then it stays. For instance, if he were to drop something, and then do nothing to show that it is on the floor, like carefully stepping over it, or kicking it, etc, then it will disappear. But if he mimed a barrier and made a low ceiling above his head, and even though he would not be touching it, he would be bent over and this would show that it is there.

to this:

By making a successful Concentration check (DC 15), the mime can bend reality to create "real" mimed objects. Once per day, a mime can create 10 gp worth of items per level of Mime. The items are non-magical in nature and possess no special abilities.

Debby

Last edited by Debihuman; 2011-10-30 at 01:12 PM.
Reason: added stuff

P.E.A.C.H. Please Evaluate And Critique Honestly. Being nicer and kinder doesn't hurt either. Note I generally only critique 3.5 and Pathfinder material.
Please, please, please when using non-core material, cite to the books. There are too many books to wade through to find the one with the feat, special ability or spell you use.my creations in homebrew signature thread

Re: 3.5 PrC: The French Mime P.E.A.C.H.

what about things like walls though? Bridges, ropes, anvils and weapons could be paid in GP, but surely not walls.

edit: What if the mime can only mime one object at any given time, he can mime a sword, but if he mimes a wall to block an incoming attack then the sword is gone, he can mine a bridge, but if he stops to mime a sandwich then the bridge vanishes beneath him.

Ideally some mimed items (such as bridges and barriers) should also be useable by non-mimes, perhaps requiring a higher mime check DC by the mime in order to work properly.

Re: 3.5 PrC: The French Mime P.E.A.C.H.

Originally Posted by Draconi Redfir

what about things like walls though? Bridges, ropes, anvils and weapons could be paid in GP, but surely not walls.

edit: What if the mime can only mime one object at any given time, he can mime a sword, but if he mimes a wall to block an incoming attack then the sword is gone, he can mine a bridge, but if he stops to mime a sandwich then the bridge vanishes beneath him.

Ideally some mimed items (such as bridges and barriers) should also be useable by non-mimes, perhaps requiring a higher mime check DC by the mime in order to work properly.

Good idea. For items that are larger than the mime or cost more than the gp limit, those things could be temporary, lasting only 10 minutes per level of mime. The Mime check should be higher for those things too.

The original post contains some contradictory material as well. "You cannot mime something which is as big as or larger than you in any direction." This would rule out walls and bridges for example. However, a 8th level mime can Mime barriers like walls so this is probably just an error in the post.

Can a Mime use his Perform (Act) with Mime? The original post has Mime checks but I wonder if these should really be Perform (Act) checks rather than a Mime skill check. Or allow the Mime to have a bonus to Mime for having a high Perform (Act) skill. I much prefer the skill check to the Class check since it didn't require the introduction of a new mechanic.

This paragraph probably needs to be deleted as well:

And, as all Mime objects are invisible, the effects of his spells are now invisible, and cannot be detected by any means. The effects of a spell would still be as before, like a fireball burning down a tree, but you would not see the fireball until it hit. The victim therefore suffers a penalty to any check attempting to dodge a spell equal to half the Mime’s caster level.

You don't dodge spells, you save against them. This makes the whole paragraph irrelevant.

To really make this a viable class, it needs to be reworked. It is an nteresting idea but profoundly flawed in execution.

Here is how I would correct for this class (in spoiler).

Spoiler

Show

Weapon proficiency: French mimes are proficient with simple weapons but not armor and shields. They are deemed to be proficient with any mimed weapon.

Spells per Day/Spells Known: If the character had a spellcasting class before becoming a French mime, then he gains new spells per day (and spells known, if applicable) as if he had also gained a level in whatever spellcasting class in which he could cast spells before he added the prestige class level. However, he does not gain any other benefit a character of that class would have gained. If a character had more than one spellcasting class before he became a French mime, he must decide to which class he adds each level of Mime for the purpose of determining spells per day.

However, a mime cannot speak so a mime can only cast spells with verbal components if he has the Silent Spell feat, and cannot cast spells with the Still Spell feat.

Class skills: The class skills of a French mime are Balance, Climb, Concentration, Escape Artist, Jump, Move Silently, Open Lock, Perform (Act), Sleight of Hand, Tumble, and Use Rope.

Mimes get 4+Int modifier skill points.

Class Features

Mime: A French mime can entertain audiences with his expressive pantomimes and earn a day's wages. A French mime can earn the following wages with a successful DC 10 Perform (Act) check or better.

DC 10: Routine performance. Trying to earn money by playing in public is essentially begging. You can earn 2d10 cp/day.
DC 15: Enjoyable performance. In a prosperous city, you can earn 2d10 sp/day.
DC 20: Great performance. In a prosperous city, you can earn 6d10 sp/day. In time, you may be invited to join a professional troupe and may develop a regional reputation.
DC 25: Memorable performance. In a prosperous city, you can earn 2d6 gp/day. In time, you may come to the attention of noble patrons and develop a national reputation.
DC 30: Extraordinary performance. In a prosperous city, you can earn 6d6 gp/day. In time, you may draw attention from distant potential patrons, or even from extraplanar beings.

By making a successful Concentration check (DC 15), the mime can bend reality to create "real" mimed objects. Once per day, a mime can create 10 gp worth of permanent items per level of Mime. The items are non-magical in nature and possess no special abilities. He can also create temporary items (weapons, animals, and barriers). These items only last for 10 minutes per level of Mime as follows:

• At Level 1, the mime can create simple light weapons items
• At Level 2, the mime can create simple weapons
• At Level 3, the mime can create Fine Animals and Vermin
• At Level 4, the mime can create Diminutive Animals and Vermin.
• At Level 5, the mime can create martial weapons, and Small Animals and Vermin.
• At Level 6, the mime can create Medium animals and Vermin and medium barriers, such as door.
• At Level 7, the mime can create light exotic weapons, and Large Animals and Vermin
• At Level 8, the mime can create light exotic weapons, Huge Animals, and Vermin, and barriers, like a wall.
• At Level 9, the mime can create exotic weapons and Small Magical beasts.
• At Level 10, the mime can Medium Magical Beasts, and Small and Medium Humanoids
• At level 11, the mime can create any living creature of any size.
• At level 12, the mime can create any non-magical item.

There is no limit to the number of times a Mime can use Perform (Act) a day, however, he can have only one temporary creation at a time. Temporary creations simply fade into nothing when their time is up.

Last of all, French mimes can use their Perform (Act) skill in place of Use Rope and Open Lock skill checks, if their Perform (Act) skill check is better.

Damage Reduction: French Mimes have damage reduction that progresses as their level rises. The progression is shown in Table: The French Mime. This damage reduction effective against all weapon types except other mimed weapons. Mimed weapons deal extra damage to a Mime equal to their damage reduction.

Spell Resistance: French mimes have spell resistance that progresses as their level rises. The progression is shown in Table: The French Mime. This spell resistance is effective against all magic, except for Lawful aligned spells, on which the spell resistance has no effect.

Oath of Miming: In the initiation ceremony to become a French Mime, a Mime takes an Oath of Miming. He can never talk again, including laughing, crying, yelling in pain, or anything like that. All these things must be mimed silently. If he ever speaks, then he has broken his oath, and he becomes a fallen mime, commonly known as a circus freak. Circus freaks gain a -2 penalty on attack, damage and saving throw rolls, lose all Mime abilities, spell resistance, and damage reduction.

Once a mime makes the oath, he or she acquires a painted face. This is special black and white face paint, unique to mimes. Once applied, it cannot be removed by any means other than death. Even if the French mime becomes a circus freak, his painted face remains as a mark of shame. Having a painted face gives you a -4 penalty to Disguise checks.

In addition to having a black and white painted face, French mimes must only wear the colors black and white. A mime who disguises his painted face takes a 2 penalty to his Perform (Act) skill. A mime who wears non-approved colors takes a -2 penalty to his Sleight of Hand skill.

A circus freak can only regain French mime status once he has repented of this sin in a process called Mime Redemption. In order to undergo redemption, the circus freak needs to seek out a master mime, one of the strongest mimes, and retrain with them. This process takes one week.

Mime Curse (Su): At level 8, once a day, French mimes can curse a fashion accessory, like a hat, or a scarf. As long as the item is either black or white, and unfashionable, a Mime can curse it (as a bestow curse spell) by making a Perform (Act) check DC 20. Once cursed, this object will turn anyone who wears it into a mime slave. It is possible to remove the curse with a remove curse spell before it is placed on a victim.

Once the cursed accessory is placed on the victim, the mime curse turns the victim into a mime slave (see below). Casting remove curse on the victim has no effect.

Mime Slave: A victim of the mime curse is known as a mime slave. The victim must make a successful Will save (DC is 10 + ˝ Mime’s Level + Cha modifier) or he acquires a painted face and loses all free will. The victim becomes a mute, mindless creature under the control of the French Mime who created it.

The easiest way to return a mime slave back to normal is for the controlling French Mime to break his Oath of Miming. All mime slaves of a given French mime are then then returned to normal, with no memory of what happened. A limited wish, miracle, or wish spell can also return a mime slave back to normal.

A French mime can only have a number of mime slaves equal to half of his level at a time.

Master Mime: At 12th Level, a French mime becomes a master mime. and circus freaks can come to you for redemption.

The ceremony of redemption takes one week and requires the circus freak to spend a week in silent meditation.

However, with great power comes great responsibility, and this cannot be trusted with oath breakers. If a master mime ever breaks his oath, then when he is redeemed he loses the Master Mime ability.

Master mimes gain a +2 Insight bonus to save against spells, spell-like and supernatural abilities that would cause them to break their oath.

Debby

Last edited by Debihuman; 2011-10-31 at 12:30 PM.

P.E.A.C.H. Please Evaluate And Critique Honestly. Being nicer and kinder doesn't hurt either. Note I generally only critique 3.5 and Pathfinder material.
Please, please, please when using non-core material, cite to the books. There are too many books to wade through to find the one with the feat, special ability or spell you use.my creations in homebrew signature thread