Is it true? Do nice guys put women on pedestals and are they insecure?

It reminds me of something I thought of the other day. The difference between nice and kind. Nice people do things so that other people will think "they are so nice" and they expect something in return, like praise, instead of doing it simply out of goodwill. While a kind person is very confident in themselves, they love themselves as much as they love other people, and they do kind things for others because they believe it's the right thing to do. Kind people will often do good deeds anonymously, because they don't expect to be praised.

Sometimes it does kind of feel like men want to give you things only to impress you, but they expect you to give yourself in return. So while it's really sweet that they were willing to give, it puts a lot of pressure on women, like they have a debt to pay and they feel pressured or guilty. In those exchanges, the one who is giving usually feels better than the one who is receiving.

The article is spot on for your typical nice guy that incessantly orbits a female. These aren't the only problems with nice guys, but it is a highlight of the things a female consciously thinks when dealing with one.

HouseMD wrote:The article is spot on for your typical nice guy that incessantly orbits a female. These aren't the only problems with nice guys, but it is a highlight of the things a female consciously thinks when dealing with one.

Interesting. What do you believe are some of the other problems? If you don't mind sharing.

You have to look at what women want out of a man and what men want out of women, and how men and women define friends versus lovers. First, we'll examine the relationship between the two. The nice guy tends to be friendly, to enjoy conversation with the woman in question and share thoughts and feelings, to share in activities that he knows the girl already enjoys (so as not to risk boring her by doing something different), and to provide her with free attention and gifts. The woman does all the same right back with him, sans the gifting in most occasions.

Next, let's look at what they do with their friends. The nice guy goes out with his friends and does things. Guys don't generally talk much with one another, we do stuff. A game of basketball, some rock climbing, hitting the bars, whatever. We're out doing things. This is completely different than what he does with the girl.

What does the girl do with her friends? She talks with them and they share their thoughts and feelings. They do things that typically are less action oriented than men, things that they already generally know they enjoy.

What does a nice guy want out of a relationship? Someone to talk to, share feelings with, someone that gets him. His lover is meant to be his release for his emotional side, which he usually cannot express with his male friends. And what does a woman want out of her relationship? A guy that goes out and does things, that breaks her from her routine, that excites her and makes her life interesting. She wants a guy that not only does things with her, but shows her new things. Or so the theory goes.

This is the basic building block of loving attraction-a woman bringing emotion into a man's world, and a man bringing excitement into a woman's.

Now let's go back to why she's not into the nice guy. Women categorize people more readily than men do, which goes back to their nature as the more social of the sexes. To maintain social stability, they must classify men as friends or potential mates from the get-go. The guy tries to give her what he wants out of a relationship- communication and comfortable understanding. The woman, however, sees the actions of a friend rather than those of a potential lover. So she tosses the guy in the friend zone, where he must forever stay, because if she just lets men hop in and out of the friend zone, she will end up losing friendships and disrupt her social circle. Social stability is something women subconsciously seek, as it provides a more ideal environment for child rearing.

The other major barrier to the nice guy being viewed as a potential lover is simple. He isn't holding anything back from the woman. She is getting everything from him, without even having to sleep with him. Why should she then sleep with him, when she can chase a more alpha-type male, who can add a bit of spice to her life, but will not do so without her putting out. These guys have plenty of girls chasing them, why would they waste their time on the one that isn't going to get them laid at the end of the night? If she waits to sleep with the bad boy, she gets the best of both worlds: an exciting guy that shows her all sorts of new and awesome things and turns her on, as well as a boring but emotionally available guy that she can use to vent her feelings and frustrations, all the while getting free gifts and affection to further boost her ego.

I'm sure I left quite a few bits out, but that's the gist of it without turning this post into a short novel.

ScarletRedLips wrote:Is it true? Do nice guys put women on pedestals and are they insecure?

It reminds me of something I thought of the other day. The difference between nice and kind. Nice people do things so that other people will think "they are so nice" and they expect something in return, like praise, instead of doing it simply out of goodwill. While a kind person is very confident in themselves, they love themselves as much as they love other people, and they do kind things for others because they believe it's the right thing to do. Kind people will often do good deeds anonymously, because they don't expect to be praised.

Sometimes it does kind of feel like men want to give you things only to impress you, but they expect you to give yourself in return. So while it's really sweet that they were willing to give, it puts a lot of pressure on women, like they have a debt to pay and they feel pressured or guilty. In those exchanges, the one who is giving usually feels better than the one who is receiving.

Agree or disagree, everyone is entitled to their opinions in an open discussion so feel free to share.

Hmm.....how about the difference between "nice" and "decent"?

The way you described "kind" also describes "decent" in my opinion. In addition, there was a time when a man's word was as good as contract, fair in his dealings with others, lived up to his obligations, accepted his responsibilities and executed his duties as he morally saw correct. I'd like to think this describes a "decent" man.

With respect to relationship, the "decent" man does not "put the woman on a pedestal and worships the ground she walks", but rather treats her fairly and respects her as an equal. If the respect and fair treatment is not reciprocated, he will break off the relationship amicably, walk away and move on. No hard feelings.

I don't see "nice" guys as having the confidence or conviction to act in this manner.

ScarletRedLips wrote:Is it true? Do nice guys put women on pedestals and are they insecure?

It reminds me of something I thought of the other day. The difference between nice and kind. Nice people do things so that other people will think "they are so nice" and they expect something in return, like praise, instead of doing it simply out of goodwill. While a kind person is very confident in themselves, they love themselves as much as they love other people, and they do kind things for others because they believe it's the right thing to do. Kind people will often do good deeds anonymously, because they don't expect to be praised.

Sometimes it does kind of feel like men want to give you things only to impress you, but they expect you to give yourself in return. So while it's really sweet that they were willing to give, it puts a lot of pressure on women, like they have a debt to pay and they feel pressured or guilty. In those exchanges, the one who is giving usually feels better than the one who is receiving.

HouseMD wrote:
Now let's go back to why she's not into the nice guy. Women categorize people more readily than men do, which goes back to their nature as the more social of the sexes. To maintain social stability, they must classify men as friends or potential mates from the get-go. The guy tries to give her what he wants out of a relationship- communication and comfortable understanding. The woman, however, sees the actions of a friend rather than those of a potential lover. So she tosses the guy in the friend zone, where he must forever stay.....

Western women have been allowed to define "niceness" in a way that largely divorces good from nice. In particular, in order to compete for female attention, men in the Western world do not allow themselves to publicly demonstrate emotional vulnerability, lest they be scorned by potential mates. It's one thing to demonstrate vulnerability, and another thing to be defined by such, but women do not recognize this distinction. Hence, men are rewarded for being two-dimensional, cardboard-cutout assholes, but marginalized should they display emotional depth of any sort. Society demands that men choke on their pain rather than give voice to it.

Correspondingly, men are precluded from calling out women on any of their bad behaviors. Without the benefit of occupying moral high ground, men are reduced to walking, talking dildos and wallets.

ntm1972 wrote:Western women have been allowed to define "niceness" in a way that largely divorces good from nice. In particular, in order to compete for female attention, men in the Western world do not allow themselves to publicly demonstrate emotional vulnerability, lest they be scorned by potential mates. It's one thing to demonstrate vulnerability, and another thing to be defined by such, but women do not recognize this distinction. Hence, men are rewarded for being two-dimensional, cardboard-cutout assholes, but marginalized should they display emotional depth of any sort. Society demands that men choke on their pain rather than give voice to it.

Correspondingly, men are precluded from calling out women on any of their bad behaviors. Without the benefit of occupying moral high ground, men are reduced to walking, talking dildos and wallets.

Good lord. Seeing one's own thoughts in print from another person is strangely powerful.

Excellent post.

Have any of you noticed the growing "no judgment" movement? ntm's last 2 sentences speak to that.

ntm1972 wrote:Western women have been allowed to define "niceness" in a way that largely divorces good from nice. In particular, in order to compete for female attention, men in the Western world do not allow themselves to publicly demonstrate emotional vulnerability, lest they be scorned by potential mates. It's one thing to demonstrate vulnerability, and another thing to be defined by such, but women do not recognize this distinction. Hence, men are rewarded for being two-dimensional, cardboard-cutout assholes, but marginalized should they display emotional depth of any sort. Society demands that men choke on their pain rather than give voice to it.

Correspondingly, men are precluded from calling out women on any of their bad behaviors. Without the benefit of occupying moral high ground, men are reduced to walking, talking dildos and wallets.

Good lord. Seeing one's own thoughts in print from another person is strangely powerful.

Excellent post.

Have any of you noticed the growing "no judgment" movement? ntm's last 2 sentences speak to that.

But I always here people especially women telling men on how to act but I never here anybody calling women out on their bullshit. No wonder society continues to be flushed down the toilet

ntm1972 wrote:Western women have been allowed to define "niceness" in a way that largely divorces good from nice. In particular, in order to compete for female attention, men in the Western world do not allow themselves to publicly demonstrate emotional vulnerability, lest they be scorned by potential mates. It's one thing to demonstrate vulnerability, and another thing to be defined by such, but women do not recognize this distinction. Hence, men are rewarded for being two-dimensional, cardboard-cutout assholes, but marginalized should they display emotional depth of any sort. Society demands that men choke on their pain rather than give voice to it.

Correspondingly, men are precluded from calling out women on any of their bad behaviors. Without the benefit of occupying moral high ground, men are reduced to walking, talking dildos and wallets.

+1

In my memory, this began with the Clint Eastwood spaghetti Westerns and the James Bond films.

A man is good with a gun, good in bed, good at baccarat... nothing else.

ScarletRedLips wrote:Is it true? Do nice guys put women on pedestals and are they insecure?
...
Agree or disagree, everyone is entitled to their opinions in an open discussion so feel free to share.

Agreed. Fortunately, life experience will cure a good number of these men ...
... about 5~10 years before many women in their own age bracket decide they want (need) to "settle down" with a Nice Guyâ„¢, after all.

не поглеждай назад.

"Even an American judge is unlikely to award child support for imputed children." - FredOnEverything

Agreed. Fortunately, life experience will cure a good number of these men ...
... about 5~10 years before many women in their own age bracket decide they want (need) to "settle down" with a Nice Guyâ„¢, after all.

Yup.

Had this very experience.

Maybe seven years ago, an incredibly hot, fit, redhead Amazon-type, all curvy in a knit dress, curls flowing everywhere... targeted me with her eyes at a professional function. Persian-Armenian, quite obviously. I moved in, got the number.

Lunch followed. Nice place. She took business calls during lunch, and she was GOOD.

She elected not to go further. She offered friend-zone, which I of course declined.

OK.

About four years after that, I ran into her at another professional function. She had lost weight, changed into a hyper-feminine waif. Wasn't even sure if it was the same person. I got the number, lunch followed, but just as friends. Dutch.

She told me that before, she had almost specialized in repelling the type of men she really wanted. She had learned to bring out her SUBMISSIVE side that she had kept hidden.

Guh....why do guys always overcomplicate trying to find an explanation about why nice guys are rejected? The reason is so darned simply really. Its because they are UGLY

The jerks can get away with what they do because they have the looks and the peen. The girls can bitch and moan but there's nothing really they could do about it. Would they risk letting Mr.Stud off to f**k someone else or just bare with his asshole behavior? I think the choice is obvious.