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Originally posted by Torvaldr

Originally posted by Loktofeit

Originally posted by Alders

This thread and some posts in it really crack me up. It's as if no one remembers or turns a blind eye to the fact that MMO's were way more "pay to win" 10 years ago. You could buy or sell gold and get pretty much anything you wanted in game and people made bank both ways. The rarity of some items drove up the price to ridiculous levels, but people payed.

Fast forward to today and we have MMO's with shops that sell fluff and cosmetic items that actually don't effect gameplay. So which iteration is better?

In a perfect world, we'd pay a monthly fee to always be on equal footing with those that put in the time to progress and get stronger. Unfortunately that world doesn't exist today and it didn't exist in the good old days.

If there was a virtual beer I could buy you, I would do so now, Alders. A very realistic perspective presented in a very skewed thread.

Yes, great post. I second that virtual beer.

You must be talking about those Asian Grinders from 10yrs ago that were pay to win.

Everquest, wasn't PayToWin...

DAOC, wasn't PayToWin...

UO, wasn't PayToWin...

SWG, wasn't PayToWin...

EQ2 , wasn't PayToWin......prior to becoming a cash-shop driven mess.

Where exactly are you fabricating this information from? 10years ago, up until 2004-2005, you paid a FLAT rate of $15/month to be the same as everyone else. If you're talking about ILLEGALLY purchasing gold from gold farmers then you disgust me, and that doesn't make a game PayToWin. It means you're a supporter of hackers and exploiters.

Lieing won't get you anywhere in a thread like this.

The Theory of Conservative Conservation of Ignorant Stupidity:Having a different opinion must mean you're a troll.

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Originally posted by madazz

As you can tell by the chart at least half the people pay for F2P games (where did you get 75% from?). This research also doesn't take into account how long each of those players played. While this is a made up number, from my experience I would guess that more than 75% of those F2P numbers that DON'T pay, also didn't play the game after the first month. ie; they jumped in, created an account, discovered it wasn't for them and moved on. With the amount of people trying F2P games as they are easily accessible I think its logical. I for one have a buddy who jumps into a ton of F2P games. He doesn't stay in any past a month except for Silk Road, which he put money into.

That is the point. You do not have any commitment and do not have to stay. That is why i like F2P.

And this "staying past a month" is a misnomer. No one is preventing a player to come back month later and play for a week. I do that from time to time.

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Originally posted by Fadedbomb

Originally posted by Torvaldr

Originally posted by Loktofeit

Originally posted by Alders

This thread and some posts in it really crack me up. It's as if no one remembers or turns a blind eye to the fact that MMO's were way more "pay to win" 10 years ago. You could buy or sell gold and get pretty much anything you wanted in game and people made bank both ways. The rarity of some items drove up the price to ridiculous levels, but people payed.

Fast forward to today and we have MMO's with shops that sell fluff and cosmetic items that actually don't effect gameplay. So which iteration is better?

In a perfect world, we'd pay a monthly fee to always be on equal footing with those that put in the time to progress and get stronger. Unfortunately that world doesn't exist today and it didn't exist in the good old days.

If there was a virtual beer I could buy you, I would do so now, Alders. A very realistic perspective presented in a very skewed thread.

Yes, great post. I second that virtual beer.

You must be talking about those Asian Grinders from 10yrs ago that were pay to win.

Everquest, wasn't PayToWin...

DAOC, wasn't PayToWin...

UO, wasn't PayToWin...

SWG, wasn't PayToWin...

EQ2 , wasn't PayToWin......prior to becoming a cash-shop driven mess.

Where exactly are you fabricating this information from? 10years ago, up until 2004-2005, you paid a FLAT rate of $15/month to be the same as everyone else. If you're talking about ILLEGALLY purchasing gold from gold farmers then you disgust me, and that doesn't make a game PayToWin. It means you're a supporter of hackers and exploiters.

Lieing won't get you anywhere in a thread like this.

Lack of familiarity of the subject matter on your part does not constitute lying on someone else's.

Third party RMT was extremely big for the size of the market at the time, reaching over $1B/year by 2006, with not only the currency being a popular sale item but entire characters and accounts. Just because it wasn't run by the developers doesn't mean it wasn't an existing issue. Also, in some of the games, it wasn't even against the game rules.

There is a difference between acknowledging the presence of something and condoning/supporting it. Your insults and accusations were both unwarranted and unconstructive.

"And wikipedia is as accurate as Britannica. Wikipedia is very reliable. You would be hard pressed to find a more reliable source for these kinds of things." -fivoroth

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@OP

With my power as a consumer, when a f2p game comes along that i want to play, I'll check it out. If I can avoid spending money on the game, all the better. If I just can't avoid paying, I'll leave and play something else. No harm, no foul.

In the case of GW2, I'll play as long as it's fun to me. If it's fun for a while, I'll buy some stuff on cash shop to say "thanks for this experience". Simple, yes? I'm a semi-budget-conscious consumer and if I can avoid spending money on a game that's no longer fun, I will, and if I have to pay a regular fee to play, then I damn well better play my money's worth and find fun while playing it; lest I waste my game time and unsub.

The social aspects may keep me for a time, only if we do fun stuff together. Thus, the game must be fun to play with others and be worth spending my money on the content. Again, simple.

I don't understand anyone touting gloom and doom for free to play games. They're free and if the consumer doesn't like their cash shops... they'll leave the game and never spend a dime. Pay to win is what it is, and most reasonable consumers realize it's a bad model and will leave. In the end, it's my disposable income, and I'll spend it how I please.

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Originally posted by Fadedbomb

Originally posted by Torvaldr

Originally posted by Loktofeit

Originally posted by Alders

This thread and some posts in it really crack me up. It's as if no one remembers or turns a blind eye to the fact that MMO's were way more "pay to win" 10 years ago. You could buy or sell gold and get pretty much anything you wanted in game and people made bank both ways. The rarity of some items drove up the price to ridiculous levels, but people payed.

Fast forward to today and we have MMO's with shops that sell fluff and cosmetic items that actually don't effect gameplay. So which iteration is better?

In a perfect world, we'd pay a monthly fee to always be on equal footing with those that put in the time to progress and get stronger. Unfortunately that world doesn't exist today and it didn't exist in the good old days.

If there was a virtual beer I could buy you, I would do so now, Alders. A very realistic perspective presented in a very skewed thread.

Yes, great post. I second that virtual beer.

You must be talking about those Asian Grinders from 10yrs ago that were pay to win.

Everquest, wasn't PayToWin...

DAOC, wasn't PayToWin...

UO, wasn't PayToWin...

SWG, wasn't PayToWin...

EQ2 , wasn't PayToWin......prior to becoming a cash-shop driven mess.

Where exactly are you fabricating this information from? 10years ago, up until 2004-2005, you paid a FLAT rate of $15/month to be the same as everyone else. If you're talking about ILLEGALLY purchasing gold from gold farmers then you disgust me, and that doesn't make a game PayToWin. It means you're a supporter of hackers and exploiters.

Lieing won't get you anywhere in a thread like this.

Ease up with the rude insults there Captain America.

Which one of those games hasn't required paid contentn updates that would put a player behind the curve if they didn't purchase. Which of those games didn't give an advantage to those bought gold? You don't get to choose what is a valid advantage or not. The fact is that gold buying and rmt did get people an advantage and those game were designed with that in mind. Excessive rarity kept people paying and grinding for the chance to win that prize. Permitted gold farming and bot running allowed players and professional farmers to exploit the game, while the publisher could publically decry the activity, to gain an advantage.

You can posture your disgust all the time, but that doesn't change the reality of what was. Calling people liars doesn't prove or support your point, it just makes your post rude.

I loved the sub for everything model that Lineage had, but the rest of the P2P world wasn't satisfied with that. They want to charge additional fees in the form of microtransactions (paid content updates, additional fluff items, account fees, etc). Your sub doesn't buy it all and never really has. Now with F2P games you can play the game and spend money as you see fit. If I don't like a F2P model then I won't support it. The model inherently provides incentive to make better games.

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Originally posted by metatronic

You people need to realise where all this F2P crap is heading... Its heading to a point where it will make the original point of playing games, for the sake of progressing a character in virtual world, never ever matter again if we support these companies churning out this type of pay model.

I beg you all to think long and hard about how badly the furture of mmo's and gaming in general will be if we end up with a system like xbox uses and you pay for content packs and such... This is a disaster waiting to happen and I urge every single one of you gamers to boy cott any game coming out using the f2p model. You will end up paying more per year to pay to play these games than you ever would just by paying 15/bucks a month... Think about that for a second... That is roughly .50 secnts a day... Are you going to tell me you can't afford to scrounge up .50 cents a day to play a game for hours on end?

I realise Gw2 is coming out and everyone is saying "oh well, Ill just buy the box and never use the cash shop"... That might be the case where you end up grinding gold and trading for gems or cash shop currency but they will make it so you will be grinding insane amounts of time into these games. farming gold to trade for gems.. Trust me, games will not be games anymore.

Most of us play games to acquire loot and play through game content to attain the best gear and viritual characters we can with our time... This newly refined pay model will take all the fun out of games, when I can just buy my progress... How pathetic.. paying for progression in a game. Why bother playing? Maybe I'm getting too old (33) and its the new era of stupid taking over. I just don't get how anyone can not see where this will end up for us, the end users of the games..

I don't know what else to say, and Im certain there is more articulate gamers out there who feel the same way and who also have the foresight to see 5 years down the road when everything is free to play but pay to win... I'm not supporting guildwars 2 not because of the pay model, but simply because the game is utterly boring. The pay model sealed the deal though as I would have normally bought the box and played for 30 days to see where the game ended up taking me.. but the pay model of pay to win left a sour taste in my mouth. And you can bet your bottom dollar, they will continually add things into that cash shop to milk the end users and after a few months you will be hooked and develop an emotional tie to your guilds and friends, and "oh so and so bought that content pack maybe I should too or I won't be able to play with them.."

I'm telling you guys right now, this will not end well for gamers.... Don't support this garbage.. play the game all you want but don't spend a dime in those shops..

I have played loads of games and tryed many so called F2P games,tho I have never played a game that realy is free to play. Most of the time the free to playe games are more expensive than subscription games if you want acsess to all content and the good gear.

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Originally posted by nariusseldon

Originally posted by madazz

As you can tell by the chart at least half the people pay for F2P games (where did you get 75% from?). This research also doesn't take into account how long each of those players played. While this is a made up number, from my experience I would guess that more than 75% of those F2P numbers that DON'T pay, also didn't play the game after the first month. ie; they jumped in, created an account, discovered it wasn't for them and moved on. With the amount of people trying F2P games as they are easily accessible I think its logical. I for one have a buddy who jumps into a ton of F2P games. He doesn't stay in any past a month except for Silk Road, which he put money into.

That is the point. You do not have any commitment and do not have to stay. That is why i like F2P.

And this "staying past a month" is a misnomer. No one is preventing a player to come back month later and play for a week. I do that from time to time.

The beauty of F2P is ....

1) FREE .. as research as shown most players don't play a cent

2) No commitment

3) Easy in, easy out.

So basically you have no idea what the OP was trying to articulate? Your graphs proved nothing at all, and as mentioned by another poster hardly relate as well. Oh well, enjoy the mass of F2P sub-quality games heading your way that you won't last in for long. As I still firmly believe, things will get better after they get worse. It's just an industry trend.

Heck, the US automakers had to learn the hard way. Now its the game industries turn. This time Indie developers will be the imports lol.

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Originally posted by metatronic

Maybe I'm getting too old (33) and its the new era of stupid taking over.

I lol'd.

Certainly, I am no fan of games converting from subscriptions to F2P models. I enjoyed LotRO way back in the day before it's expansions, but not after it was diced up into tiny chunks of unlockable content- just not the same experience for me. I think you are foolish OP for turning your nose up at GW2 B2P model.

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Originally posted by metatronic

For those who can't read.. Don't support free to play, because nothing is free and you will pay more in the long run. You new era of gamers are single handidly destroying mmo's.. Any old school mmo'ers I know for fact would never support this crap.

Btw, I have a great job and could more than afford to pay to win at any game... the point is, whats the point of playing then?

One point you make that I can agree with "nothing is free" but having said that you may as well have made a post about how we all need to realize the sky is blue.

I don't think there are many people out here who don't realize the devs WANT us to put money into the game but I'm having a hard time connecting how that is forcing anyone to do that a free to play game is free to play unless you want to "insert item,function here". The end result still is you either find the game worth the money you invest in it or you don't.

the problem with ideas like yours is you somehow assume we are more sheep than you are and will simply give away money without considering whether we personally feel the investment is worth it and I don't see anything that shows you as more intelligent than me or any of the other people who frequent this site including those who support free to play games.

At 15.00 a month the standard sub based game costs close to two hundred dollars a year maybe people who support free to play games should start bitching and moaning about why we are out here paying 60.00 bucks for a box and then close to 200.00 a year for it?

We get it you don't feel you are strong enough to indulge in games like LOTRO without being drawn into spending more than that 200.00 a year but who are you or anyone else for that matter to tell other people they are equally as weak willed?

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Originally posted by Loktofeit

Originally posted by Normike.

Yep, that's exactly what I mean. Using staying "competitive" in the sense of beingin the top few percent in terms of content progression and gear upgrades. To stay in that top percent of players in a F2P game you end up actually spending more per month than in a subscription based MMO. But you're saying no no no that's not true? Really? Have you played Lotro, STO, DDO recently?

LOTRO and DDO, yes. STO isn't my thing, so no. Can you link to the data you're referring to? The 5-10% I referred to what the percent of people that pay anything in a F2P MMO. It's a consistent number across almost all F2P MMOs. You're stating that those players are the 'top' players. Please support that. Also include...top of what, actually?

Read their player forums with people upset at how much extra their required to pay just to stay at the top levels of competition? That kind of money requirement is ridiculous. It makes no sense.

If they are competing against the other players in LOTRO and DDO, that's an arbitrary goal they have set and not part of any coded or intended gameplay. If either game has introduced some gameplay that requires you to compete against the others, and that competition requiring the expenses you suggest, please link to it.

And yet most F2P games with cash shops end up going down this road in order to create a demand for the items their selling in their cash shop. It's definitely not parlor tricks. Players on the MMOs own forums are complaining about this insane pricing. Do you just not follow these F2P games or something?

I definitely follow them. It's part of my job to. It's why I am very interested in what you're reading that's leading you to this rather odd conclusions.

I've seen countless legitimate threads over and over, for years. Those above are just after a 2 minute google search. I think it makes sense that the people who pay more money in STO, DDO, and Lotro have a small (sometimes significant) advantage over people who don't pay anything at all. That is a trade off in F2P games. You wouldn't have thread after thread of people complaining about players being able to buy gear, items, abilities, or other perks that give them an advantage in these game's forums and on blogs.

Yes, it's this is a business. These companies have to make money to keep the game alive. Are they going to put an item, ability, or perk in the shop that's convenient and quicker to get by buying in the shop rather than grinding for it in the game? YES, yes they will. Is it going to be expensive? YES, yes it will. This is what people are complaining about. It's just something that comes with F2P games.

And yes, people in MMOs are competitive with each other. Even with game mechanics that help them to be cooperative instead of competitive, many players will instictively be competitive within these cooperative frameworks. That's human nature in gaming. Just like artists are naturally sensitive about their work, players are naturally competitive about there gear, items, and perks.

We can't pretend that this isn't an continual issue with F2P games in western culture. Eastern gaming market might be different. It might be more socially expected that people who have more money (and thus social stuats) should be able to buy items and have a slight competitive or status advantage vs other players in an online game. I'm not sure it will ever be an issue that western culture gets over though.

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Originally posted by Fadedbomb

Originally posted by Torvaldr

Originally posted by Loktofeit

Originally posted by Alders

This thread and some posts in it really crack me up. It's as if no one remembers or turns a blind eye to the fact that MMO's were way more "pay to win" 10 years ago. You could buy or sell gold and get pretty much anything you wanted in game and people made bank both ways. The rarity of some items drove up the price to ridiculous levels, but people payed.

Fast forward to today and we have MMO's with shops that sell fluff and cosmetic items that actually don't effect gameplay. So which iteration is better?

In a perfect world, we'd pay a monthly fee to always be on equal footing with those that put in the time to progress and get stronger. Unfortunately that world doesn't exist today and it didn't exist in the good old days.

If there was a virtual beer I could buy you, I would do so now, Alders. A very realistic perspective presented in a very skewed thread.

Yes, great post. I second that virtual beer.

You must be talking about those Asian Grinders from 10yrs ago that were pay to win.

Everquest, wasn't PayToWin...

DAOC, wasn't PayToWin...

UO, wasn't PayToWin...

SWG, wasn't PayToWin...

EQ2 , wasn't PayToWin......prior to becoming a cash-shop driven mess.

Where exactly are you fabricating this information from? 10years ago, up until 2004-2005, you paid a FLAT rate of $15/month to be the same as everyone else. If you're talking about ILLEGALLY purchasing gold from gold farmers then you disgust me, and that doesn't make a game PayToWin. It means you're a supporter of hackers and exploiters.

Lieing won't get you anywhere in a thread like this.

The point i was trying to make, that you obviously missed, is that the payment model does not matter. It's how the game's mechanics and economy are built and how they discourage or support "pay to win". Those old games such as EQ, SWG, FFXI, and so on with a player run economy were run by RMT and people supporting it. That's the definition of pay to win.

I didn't support it then and i sure as hell don't now. What i am saying is that MMO's are a lot less pay to win now due to the mechanics that take the importance off in game gold and place it elsewhere. This of course excludes all the Korean grinders and is more about the top AAA MMO's.