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Do Men Like Bitches Or Nice Girls?

Evan,

When it comes to dating, what do you think works best for attracting a man – and making him want to commit? In the world of dating advice, there are two opposite schools of thought on the subject: one is coming from the likes of Sherry Argov’s “Why Men Love Bitches” where the “nice girls” get passed over the more edgy, less giving women; and the other is from Tracy McMillan’s “Why You Are Not Married”, proclaiming that kindness gets you to the altar and the “nice girls” finish first with the ring on their left hand. Example (one of many) is that cooking for a man is a sign of caring and nurturing from McMillan’s point of view, whereas it’s a number one sign of a doormat from the Argov’s. In your experience, what works?

–Stephanie

Dear Stephanie,

I’m thrilled that you asked this. Honestly.

Because you’ve outlined the central dilemma that most of my smart, strong, successful clients face: should I be a bitch or a nice girl? What works better? What do men like? What if I’m naturally one way? Should I try to be the other?

These questions are all completely misguided.

The people who are happily married all figured out which trade-offs were worth it. The people who have not figured out their tradeoffs still struggle.

They reduce female behavior to a binary choice, when, in fact, behavior can never be compared to an either/or proposition.

We see fallacies like that all the time on this blog.

When I tell you to dial down chemistry, it becomes: “Oh, so I should go out with someone who is entirely unattractive to me?”

When I tell you that if you have your own money, you don’t need a man to make more than you, it becomes, “Oh, so I should find myself some slacker deadbeat who can’t support himself?”

Sorry, but the world is grey and these are weak straw-man arguments that women use to defend why they need a man who is taller, smarter, richer, funnier, etc. Except it’s simply not true. Men don’t need women who are taller, smarter, richer and funnier, and the fact that women think they do – as if anything else is “settling” – is the main source of the problem. The people who are happily married all figured out which trade-offs were worth it. The people who have not figured out their tradeoffs still struggle.

So here’s the deal, Stephanie.

Argov’s book doesn’t tell women to be “bitches”. It tells them to have boundaries, so as to avoid the fate of all the women who read “He’s Just Not That Into You”.

If you have boundaries, you won’t sleep with a guy until he’s exclusive.
If you have boundaries, you won’t stay with him for four months without being his girlfriend.
If you have boundaries, you let him know how he disappointed you and how he can please you better, instead of silently stewing that he unknowingly mistreated you.

This is basic assertiveness – and this is what prevents you from being a doormat.

Remember, men are about feelings. How we feel around you determines whether we want to stick around for life.

NONE of this prevents you from following the McMillan “Why You’re Not Married” model (which I wrote about in my 2006 book, “Why You’re Still Single”).

She and I (and pretty much every good, sane man on the planet) agree that the best way to a man’s heart is to treat him well. Support his dreams. Accept his flaws. Laugh at his jokes. Let him be himself. Cook him dinner. Give him oral sex. We’re really not all that complicated, y’know.

Anyone who tells you that this will make you a doormat (as opposed to the perfect wife), has absolutely no understanding of what makes men tick.

Remember, men are about feelings. How we feel around you determines whether we want to stick around for life.

I can assure you that if you interpreted the Argov book to mean “don’t support his dreams, don’t accept his flaws, don’t laugh at his jokes, don’t let him be himself, don’t cook him dinner, don’t give him oral sex,” you’ve got it 100% wrong.

And if you want a shorter way to get the formula right, let’s consider what it takes for a man to do well with women.

Comments:

1

Julia

Why is it that when I am being a bitch, aka ignoring men that I have no interest in going out with again, men won’t leave me alone? I feel like its bad karmic energy but I also feel like nothing is owed to anyone after 1 date, I shouldn’t have to break up with a guy that I am not dating.

Julia—I’m just guessing here, but since I have the same problem I figured I would respond lol.

I that that the only thing that is going on here is that with men you’re NOT interested in, you are exuding a different type of energy…. Perhaps one that is care-free, free to be yourself, not needy, not clingy, easy-going, etc, because you’re NOT interested in these guys.

With the guys you ARE interested in, maybe you’re behaving a little differently??? Even subtly? Perhaps maybe you’re more nervous around them, trying hard to impress them, don’t want to offend, hiding your TRUE self instead of just letting your natural radiance shine, you are actually worried/invested in whether they will call you back for a 2nd date, and maybe that vibe is seeping through your pores and they are sensing it…even if only subconsciously.

Idk…this is just my GUESS. I struggle with this too because it DOES feel like someone is playing a cruel joke lol! But it was this year that I started to really think about how I act around guys who are interested in me (that I have ZERO interest in whatsoever), and how I act around guys who I’m crushing on real hard, and it was then that I realized: “BINGO!!!” The men I’m NOT interested in are getting a different version of me than the ones that I AM interested in!

So, maybe take some time to think deeply about how you act/or come across around guys you’re interested in vs. guys you’re NOT interested in, and see if you change a little bit…. Doing a little digging and soul searching might reveal to you the answer. 🙂

Yup I was completely NOT interested in my current boyfriend. I know I was a completely different person with him than I was the guys I was completely gaga over. Men do like to chase you and boy did he chase. He kept showing up and doing exactly what Evan says he should, so I finally gave him a chance! We have been together for almost a year and a half now! He is amazing!! And I did NOT meet him online….sorry Evan I disagree with you there 😉

It’s soo common and annoying that men do that when you give no indication that you are interested. It’s like they think if they keep pushing that you’ll give in or something. Some guy I barely knew and never hungout with went ballistic because I didn’t respond to his text right away. I have noticed though it’s frequent men will just disappear on you for who they call crazy bitches. Yes 1 date is not a big deal but when you’ve been with them for months and known them for years why do men find it ok to do that?

because for 1 date I can tell what women I want to be with and ones I don’t. If your going on months now and nothing happens then you are stringing them along. And men have a reason for calling some women crazy bitches.

Why is it that everything comes down to oral sex? Maybe some women just don’t want to do it! It shouldn’t be the measure of how good you are to a man.

As for the rest, like supporting his dreams, that’s fine if his dreams aren’t completely delusional. As for accepting his flaws, that’s fine provided he’s not a narcissist who’s gas lighting you. As for letting him be himself and laughing at his jokes, if he’s a selfish asshole he can be that by himself. And it gets old hearing the same jokes forever. It’s fine to cook him dinner, but it gets old if you are the one supporting him and buying all the food. And the lying cheating narcissist will lie and cheat whether or not you give him oral sex.

So the one thing I agree with is boundaries…they are key, and mine are never going to be violated again. Yup, didn’t set them, and had a very bad experience.

I think the author leaves out the element of timing. He is not going to get cooking and oral sex out of me immediately. Period. He has to first be interesting and sensible. Prove himself worthy of good treatment. Then its a give and take. When im comfortable having sex, we can both give oral sex, and if I do cook, its because he is a very respectful, giving man himself, who is exclusively dating me. Women and especially men need to realize its GIVE and take. If you are dating all around and selfish, don’t expect her to give you exclusivity and oral sex! All men are not entitled to a great selfless woman simply by virtue of his maleness. But a good man is very deserving of one.

To men oral sex is a testament to how much they mean to you and trust. Seriously it is a really big thing to them like giving you attention or making you feel loved . Not to say, every guy is like that but there are a lot that do need that as a bonding thing. It is that they really enjoy it like we really enjoy hearing they are into us. I equate the fact that I love a guy to bite my neck in the throws of passion to him seeing me being so turned on that I simply need his man hood in my mouth. It is all about passion and being willing to do an act that feels good and is a big trust exercise if you think about it. Further more yes you need boundaries. N,o you don’t need to hate every guy that you date from now on because you dated a douche bag one time. Remember the three strikes your out rule…he doesn’t value you or your time (strike one), He interrupts you, talks over you, or ignores you when you say “stop it” (strike two), the first time he lies (strike 3) he is gone. Do not be a doormat you matter just as much as he does and as long as you respect him and he respects you then there shouldn’t be an issue. Good luck sweetie I am so sorry you dealt with that I have been there too when I was young.

It is an excellent point that what matters is having boundaries. But sometimes you have to be a real bitch to establish and maintain those boundaries. Men are like toddlers – they will test the water to see exactly with how much BS they can get away with and still have “dinner and oral sex”. Can they not take you out for a month? Can they skip dinner with your parents 2 times in a row to watch a game? Can they give you a box of chocolates for your 30-th birthday? Can they not offer help cleaning up, changing a diper in the middle of the night, walking the dog, etc? When this happens you have to put your foot down and let them know that this behavior in unacceptable, which often leads to a tantrum (remember men are like toddlers), so you have to be really firm and follow through with whatever consequences you feel are appropriate.. good men respond well to such “training”, bad men don’t, so those are not relaitonship material

Wow. Maybe you should be up-front and honest about your true beliefs to every man you are with. Tell them how they are all toddlers and you need to train them. I think eventually you will find out who is really not relationship material (hint: look at a mirror).

You and your partner should WANT to do nice things for each other and WANT to give oral to each other. Like holy jeeze, I know I wouldn’t want to go without it!

I’m 29yo (career oriented/successful/alpha female) and currently living with my bf – we just went ring shopping (yay!), but I can say I’ve never been dumped and all my previous bf’s wanted to marry me and always said those 3 little words around the 1st month. I’m also a feminist but have no problem with gender roles as long as he does the dishes – I hate doing dishes. My ex used to say I had “just the right amount of bitch” – meaning, I do all the nice things Evan mentions above but I also assert myself, am strong in my convictions, debate with the best of them on politics and world news, while always keeping my feminine energy.

Oh yeah, and I live in NYC where ppl say it’s difficult to date, but it’s really not. It’s also true though that women 25-30 should date like they are in their 30s instead of waiting until the last minute.

If you are a feminist, he is very likely to need a lawyer if he goes through with the idea of marrying you, since feminists hate men by default and 70% of all divorces are filed by women, with the number 1 reason is that they said they got bored, which means women can’t keep a commitment which is worse than accusing men of being afraid to make one.

2.1.2

Courtney

Hysterical but so true! You also have to give them a toy when they behave!

Justin, you can chastise Stacy all you want, however if she is anything like my best friend, she is relentless with her husband and he worships the ground she walks on. I on the other hand have been dumped many times while being told how kind and understanding. I’m just so amazing I have to be dumped. Honestly, I think my next Dear Jane letter will have to start out, Dear Relentlessly, Utterly Unreasonavle Beotch! I swear, If I get dumped again, Im going to earn it and deserve it.

Hey, sorry to dear about your bad luck. I’ve had bad luck myself, but whatever. We all deal with it in our own way I guess. Personally, I’d rather work on myself and not wait for someone to “complete” me. If it happens it happens, if it doesn’t it doesn’t. I don’t want to be in a relationship where I have to endlessly play games to get what I want out of someone. I just don’t think that’s the answer. I think being alone and having freedom is much more fulfilling than being trapped in a power struggle with another person. Then again, some people can’t stand to be alone. Idk. Gotta do what works for you I guess.

…

Justin

*sorry to hear.

Damn cell phone keyboards.

2.1.4

Narcissists are awful

Justin, you gave the typical bitter narcissist reply! Narcissists are the worst toddlers of all (psychology says it, not just our own experience) and they HATE it when they’re exposed. Just like you were triggered by this women who’s aware of what’s going on. You felt personally attacked and and therefore attacked her. Yes, she is relationship material, the “look in the mirror” line is typically narcissistic.

Lol… I can just see you frothing at the mouth right now over your armchair diagnosis of my supposed mental condition that makes you hate me.

When I posted this comment some years ago, I didn’t know I’d be visited in the future by a telepathic psychiatrist who would peer into my soul and “expose” me. I’m not even a troll, I was serious, but I just can’t stop laughing at your angry bullshit character assasination attempt at me.

No, I’m not a narcissist. I was seen by a professional and diagnosed with depression when I was a child and suicidal, but I bet you’d love to use that against me too, since you hate people with mental illness so much, as if it’s a choice anyone makes to have. Get real. Maybe learn a little compassion for others? It’s one thing to be mad at someone for just being a shitty person. I can understand that, but hating someone specifically for having a mental disease (more like a mental curse, if you’ve ever had one) they didn’t ask for? Even though you were dead wrong in your choice, that’s still a shitty thing to do. Tsk tsk.

Anyways, the idea that someone would view a human as beneath them and manipulate them at all is disgusting to me. Of course in reality lots of people are like that, and this idiot woman even took that to a gendered place, so in total there you have the ACTUAL reason I wrote my original smartass comment against that sexist garbage. I don’t think a narcissist would feel concern for the well being of people they’ll never even know. Then again I’m not a self-appointed psychology expert goes around diagnosing people.

What you have just done here, ma’am, is the typical third-wave femenist reply: Call anyone who disagrees with you mentally ill, a terrible person, and scream it from the rooftops to try to incite some sick form of mob “justice” against them. I guess I’m mysogynist too, for daring to disagree with any woman ever. Please disappear into whatever hole you crawled out of. The world needs less of this type of crazy nonsense.

P.s., There is actually one thing you may have been coincidentally right about: I might have been bitter way back when I wrote that. But so what? When a girl you’re in a great long-term relationship with suddenly starts treating you like you’re scum beneath her, when you try to communicate about it she doubles down and screams at you, then dumps you, then you find out everything you originally thought you believed in about the relationship was a total lie, and now on top of that she’s going around telling people more awful lies like the ones you originally believed, because she plays the victim so well and will falsely paint any man (even her own family, her own dad) as an abusive piece of shit if it buys her sympathy points to climb the social ladder at the expense of ruining your life, yeah I get bitter when it comes to manipulative bitches who’ll do anything to get ahead. So I wrote a smartass comment one day against someone I saw striking similarities to in their whole attitude, tone, and world view. Does that really make me a “narcissist”? Not that I care about your answer to that question, since you were just being “triggered” by my comment anyway.

…

Justin

And I’m turning off my notifications now as this whole discussion is a waste of time. I’m not sure why I’m on this website’s comments where I don’t care what you’re saying, you don’t care what I’m saying, I’m not even the target audience, and people just wanna “trigger” each other. Peace t.f.o.

…

JENNIFER SMITH

I respectfully disagree with the characterization of Justin as a narcissist. He might be bitter, like several people here, but I don’t think he was talking down to anyone.”TF” may be the one closer to narcissistic, and I’m not even sure about that.

3

Wendy

I remember someone once telling me that the definition of “love” is not how you feel about someone, but how you feel about yourselfwhen you’re withthat someone. I try to always keep this in mind when I’m dating. I believe if you can make a man feel good about himself when he’s around you (by supporting his dreams, accepting his flaws, etc.), then he’ll stick around, at least until the relationship falls apart for other reasons. It’s worked well for me, but I have a helluva time trying to get my bitchy friends to understand the philosophy behind it. One in particular gives me the run-down on her dates (“We went for sushi because I like sushi even though he doesn’t, then I had to tell him why he shouldn’t eat meat, and THEN I had to tell him why his car is so bad for the environment, blahblahblah….”). And she wonders why they don’t call her again!!! While my friend likes to think of herself as a “strong woman who knows what she wants and doesn’t have to waste time putting up with guys’ BS,” I think she’s a bitch. But I think men are easily drawn to bitchy women because they initially appear confident and fun (which is why us nicer, quieter gals often get passed up, and why the myth of the “bitch” personality type attracting more men persists), but when a guy finds himself being respected and appreciated by a woman, I believe it makes him stop and think, “Hey…she could be the one!” Honey gathers more flies than vinegar.

Spot on Wendy… Have tried it and it worked for me. Respect is a major element in a relationship for a guy, if u give it to him and have it for your self, even though things might not work out, he’ll always wonder, could she have been the one? In fact, giving him respect and having boundaries at the same time makes it hard for him to walk away because he’ll always wonder, what if she’s the one? Especially considering that most sisters out there aren’t giving the respect ”jewel”

Not in this lifetime, not in this country(America). Here the definition of love is whether a female(TheB!tch) thinks the Man or Woman is attractive, or nice to look at. Whether that female feels good about herself while with a man or woman totally depends of her, she could be obsessive and dig her own grave asking for someone to hurt her; or she may down right be the most cold blooded heartless creature on this planet and string someone along just to hurt him. Who knows if she does it on purpose, maybe it’s a sick subconscious game she is playing or maybe she is just stupid. Basically the Law that resides in the theory of Love is, 1. Love is not natural 2. Love is a drug that has a chance or taking you up or down 3.Love has many shapes and forms though the most wicked game of chance is created between a man and a woman 4.You have to hold dependency over the other or you are screwed out of that value comes out of the relationship 5.EXPECT THE UNEXPECTED. I would write down more laws, but I don’t really feel like it anymore.

“If you have boundaries, you won’t sleep with a guy until he’s exclusive. If you have boundaries, you won’t stay with him for four months without being his girlfriend. If you have boundaries, you let him know how he disappointed you and how he can please you better, instead of silently stewing that he unknowingly mistreated you.”

And:

“…the best way to a man’s heart is to treat him well. Support his dreams. Accept his flaws. Laugh at his jokes. Let him be himself. Cook him dinner. Give him oral sex.”

I will add: such behavior can not be pretended, not in the long-term at least. It is the result of a solid character and the ability to truly love. Respect, partnership, acceptance, appreciation, allowing, affection, attention, these are the attributes of real love. If you can’t support his dreams because they do not align with yours and your values, if you can’t laugh at his jokes, if you won’t give him something he really enjoys, maybe it’s time to let him go and choose a different man more compatible to you or more deserving of your love. Or to start working on your character.

All my previous relationship difficulties came from not having a well-rounded character and/or from not having clear and firm boundaries. I was loyal and generous, but I was not accepting and appreciative. I wanted a life-partner, but I was choosing men based on short-term considerations. When I did the (hard) work of adding these character and boundary tools in my toolbox, my relationships improved. All of them.

Being “a nice girl” or being “a bitch”? If you have a good character, you’ll be “a nice girl” by default. Spice it up by role-playing the bitch once in a while : )

I disagree. I don’t there’s ever a reason to be a bitch, no more than it would be fun for me to roleplay an “asshole” to my wife. How about we act really, really, really nice to people we love and that’s all?

I tend to agree as far as setting boundaries goes. I dated a guy who did that, was constantly testing to see what he could get away with. And because he did it constantly in front of others and because I am the kind of woman who refuses to have dating drama played out in front of others, I said very little when he’d be out of line. Plus, he’d also yell at me and have the nerve to tell me that I had no right to be upset and he had the right to do as he wished.

But, I dumped him and I learned to set boundaries. I do not allow men, whether strangers or dates, to treat me disrespectfully. If a date is disrespectful in any way, shape or form on the first date, I refuse to see them again. Especially if a first date cancels or wants to reschedule at the last minute, I made it a policy to not reschedule.

My boyfriend knows I will stand up for myself and if he’s disrespectful, I pipe right up now and make it really clear that I won’t tolerate his misbehavior. I learned a lot in the last 2 years since that last relationship ended, about boundaries, and like the saying goes, “We teach others how to treat us.” And I have made it my goal to love myself, and expect others to either respect my boundaries, or go away. The choice is theirs.

Good for you Tracy!i would assume you had a good proper upbringing.No buddy should take insults.It’s funny when we apply for a job with a new employer that every buddy is on thier best behavior,worh shrewdly,on time yet when time goes on some of us slip,late,not as careful with attention.Its the bsame with a relationship people put on a show yet in time they get sarcastic…nobuddy shiould take insults or down talk.A little joking and fun talk is different yet being a proud father of two children always being reliable and fare with my children has made for a great relationship

A lot of how to succeed with the opposite sex is not necessarily intuitive, so I recall reading the Why Men Love Bitches book and several others to get a better grasp on effective ways of dating. However, I find the book’s advice to be off base for several reasons.

It advises women to NEVER mention commitment, that for men that process takes 4-6 months. It also advises you to wait a little while for sex, but not to bring up exclusivity or anything like that when you finally do it. The book mentions at some point that if he goes a week without calling, act as though you didn’t even notice. Well, I’ve done these things and it got me nowhere – doing this stuff puts you at risk for being the very doormat she says you shouldn’t be. I’ve always been the cool girl to a fault, and it got me nowhere – because I was being a cool girl to the wrong guys, who just took advantage of it!

Finally, her book never brings up the point that with the right guy, you don’t NEED to be constantly putting him in his place and acting so cool and dealing with his waiting months to bring up commitment or a week-long lapse in calling.

While some advice in that book was solid (I read both Why Men Love Bitches and Why Men Marry Bitches), I applied some of the advice to a particular guy in my life and completely self-sabotaged myself. Why? He was never emotionally available and the book didn’t mention that!

The book told me to play it cool.. play it like it doesn’t matter.. be cheery and nice. That didn’t get me anywhere and I should have kicked him to the curb much earlier because there were guys who didn’t treat me like some toy.

The one major flaw in the book is that it gives the impression that this advice is applicable to ALL guys. It isn’t!

What you said was EXACTLY what I went through – “Because I was being a cool girl to the WRONG guys, who just took advantage of it!”

And yes, with the RIGHT guy I’ve found it just flows naturally. I did use some of Sherry’s advice with some amazing men I’ve dated, including my wonderful boyfriend.. they were helpful, but in the end, if you focused first on who you are BE-ing rather than trying to act in a certain way, things just fall into place.

I read the book too, and I thought, the right guy won’t need you to play those games, and to a player, the book is GOLD, because playing all cool, like you don’t care, will just draw those kind of guys to you.

Being a bitch isn’t necessary with the right guy, acting like a bitch is exactly what the PLAYERS want. Girls who play games, end up with players.

I never had to be bitchy to my fiance. He made his intentions clear from day 1, and never blew hot or cold. If I had played silly hard to get games with him, we probably would not be together. If I acted like I didn’t care he most likely would have moved on. He didn’t want a “cool” girlfriend. He likes the fact that I am a very warm and affectionate person. I never “chased” him, but I responded with warmth and enthusiasm to him in all ways.

If you have boundaries, you won’t sleep with a guy until he’s exclusive.

Why???? Why do I need to wait until we are exclusive just because I am female?

I think either he’s a man with certain values so he won’t sleep around while getting to know me or he isn’t and in that case he is not relationship material for me. But the sex could still be great ;)…

Honestly, it sets boundaries just like anything else. Some people look at sex as trying out the merchandise. There are tons of fake men who pretend to be all in when they are just trying to get you in bed. I am all for having sex because sex is wonderful but if you are looking for a long term deal I would wait. If nothing else just to weed out the jerks. I know lots of people have one nightstands and then it becomes a relationship but that is less likely to happen than getting hurt or cheated on. Plus, it is nice to know if there is chemistry or is it lust. Lust means you want to screw them plain and simple you could care less if they are compatible in your life and more if you can get off before he does . Chemistry is when you want to know them and that doesn’t mean without their clothes on. It means you want to find out how they take their coffee, if they are into the same music or like to eat Chinese food at 3am. We all lust but to get to the person behind the honey words and sexy bod you need time to reveal the person to you. Wait until a committed relationship (bond) has been made and then move it to the bed room and see what else you can find out about them and no it is not because your a woman it is the same for men. You know you want to screw her but do you want to wake up next to her more than once? It is not how everyone works but it is a preferred method to basing your entire relationship on sexual compatibility. I have had a relationship that seemed great even lasted 12 years but it was based on sex. We had nothing else in common. We are still friends, we are still there for each other but we are now going forward apart. I realized I just don’t love him but we had amazing sex. Not everything in a relationship is solved with sex you have to be friends, lovers and compatible.

I like to think I’m a nice girl, but I think I made myself too available: to meet a guy and other personal reasons. Evan, do you think we should make a man that asks us out on the spot wait to see us, even if we want to?

That’s actually one of the games that women play in dating that actually turns me off. I hate three things in dating, liars, game players and unkind women. Instead I like women who say what they mean and are upfront. Yes means yes and no means no.

Also I have found myself respecting and wishing I could meet more women, who when they don’t like you on the first date are kind enough to tell you in a nice fashion stick around for a bit and talk and enjoy food. It leaves an impression that they are in the class of rare few that could be marriage material.

I have met too many women for whom being nice is actually lacking. It has made me glad I dodged a bullet with them.

I dream of a kind woman who is supportive, and is emotionally available and not distant. For whom I can see spending time on walk and not say a word for a few minutes and feel comfortable. My advice is pursue him a little and be straightforward with him. I always do the pursuing and it does get a little tiring. I wish you the best of luck.

Overall, I think this is really good advice, Evan. On the subject of boundaries, I think it should be understood that a woman should not be giving oral sex on tap if her man doesn’t know where her clitoris is and has no interest in finding out. Good sex is interactive and mutually pleasurable, not obligatory.
I know that you know this, EMK. I’m just stating the obvious for women who might be confused about the role of sex in ltrs. I was once very generous sexually and demanded very little in return. The result was that my partner didn’t respect me as I rarely voiced my needs, and he went on to cheat on me anyway, too. Lesson to self: if you treat your partner like he’s entitled, he will likely feel entitled.

I don’t think anyone should have to act any way at all to get a person to stay with them. If I myself were questioning that i’d have to assume I’m questioning my own ability to be lovable. That’s a whole different can of worms…

Any decent human being will accept someone and support their dreams if they love that person. Respect, kindness, compassion, and appreciation should be a given.

Abuse? Never. Men do not have a monopoly on abusive behaviour. Constantly cutting a person down, witholding affection, emotional manipulation..The list goes on. Many people (men and women, men in this case) will latch on to someone who treats them that way. That doesn’t make it ok. Being a woman does not give you a free pass. The thought of doing it purposely to selfishly gain misguided devotion is kind of twisted.

Go ahead and find that man of your dreams…Then break his balls till he’s hopelessly devoted to that bull-whip we lightly referr to as “bitchiness”. Sounds wonderfully fulfilling for both people involved.

If you want the right man for you to stick around, value your time, and love you unconditionally, just be you! Love yourself, honour yourself, live within your own personality. The right person will stick around and when he does, respect him! I just can’t see any other way to do it…

Thank you for writing this. I struggle with these concepts, especially when I think about my last relationship. I was with a man who had a complicated relationship with his ex, and we talked about it, I asserted boundaries about what made me uncomfortable but I trusted him and took him at his word. Then when he dumped me he said I wasn’t dramatic enough for him which is something I never thought I would hear a man say.

I hated Tracy McMillan’s Huffington Posts articles, so I doubt I’d read her book. Plus, I’m not sure that 3 divorces qualifies someone to be a relationship “expert.” But I did enjoy Sherry Argov’s “Why Men Love Bitches”, which really should be titled, “Why Men Don’t Love Doormats.” For Argov, being a bitch means standing your ground and not tolerating disrespectful treatment. I agree with EMK and Fusee (#4), that my previous relationship difficulties also stemmed from not having clear and firm boundaries, not because I was not a nice person. I think that telling single women to have more defined boundaries, and building their self-esteem is a lot more helpful than telling them how messed up or inadequate they are.

Once you have found a good guy, treating him just as well as he treats you makes for a healthy, balanced relationship. How can anyone disagree with that advice?

The world is thick with black & white thinking. It’s in politics, finance, the way we approach fitness, food, consumption, religion/spirituality, and definitely intimate relationships. I think people find comfort in hard & fast rules simply because it’s just plain easier. Better to have a Book of Rules than having to think on our feet, assess each situation, struggle with it, and find the balance. Then, when you’ve gone by the book, and it still doesn’t work out, you get to blame it on the source instead of taking personal responsibility or just sucking it up and realizing that most things involving human behavior don’t work by a formula or precise code.

At the risk of sounding like a bee-yaaatch…. regarding Stacy’s comment (#2), “Men are like toddlers.” Not only is that pretty insulting, but it’s the perfect example of yet another rule dressed up to look like a boundary. Personally, I don’t want to “train” a man to do anything, thanks, much less want to be with a man who would LET me train him. If a guy allows you to treat him like a toddler, seems to me what you’ll wind up with is….well, a toddler. And I’m pretty sure that’s not what you want, and I’m very sure it’s not what I want.

Evin’s talking about someone you want for the long haul.
He *might* be the kind of guy who will jump into bed AND stick around for the relationship, but then again he might not. If you make him wait until you’re both ready to say “let’s commit to each other”, then you’ll be more certain he’s actually interested in you, and you’ll definitely weed out the fly-by-nighters.

“Why is it that when I am being a bitch, aka ignoring men that I have no interest in going out with again, men won’t leave me alone?”

Because, you are likely observing a spurious correlation(I wouldn’t expect you would be as likely to ignore those men who you ARE interested in seeing again – thus your behavior may be only spuriously correlated with their pursuit, and not the actual ’cause’).

@ Stacey

” Men are like toddlers – they will test the water to see exactly with how much BS they can get away with.”

This kind of behavior isn’t dependent on sex.

” good men respond well to such “training””

Do ‘good’ women respond equally well?

Everyone has boundaries.

But, it occurs that what makes someone a ‘bitch’, is how unresaonable and selfish those boundaries tend to be.

@ Miranda

“Evan, this post is so spot on.

But I always wonder why this one thing keeps coming up:If you have boundaries, you won’t sleep with a guy until he’s exclusive. Why???? Why do I need to wait until we are exclusive just because I am female?”

The theme of the blog(and the standing assumption in many of its entries) is women looking for ‘love’.

Not women looking to ‘hook-up'(do women really need a blog for that?)

But, rational foresight should take into account what Oxytocin tends to do to women, once they get a ‘taste’?(ie. these kinds of chemical diversions are a liability, assuming a stable LTR is the goal).

Exactly. I really thought I’d had some boundaries, with my last serious relationship, but really, I didn’t. Once I left him, I realized that I had to learn basic stuff like: never allow a guy to ask you out at the last minute. It means that he probably had nothing else better to do, and you’re better than “nothing else better to do.”

I learned to turn down dates if I got a bad “gut feeling”, and to expect nothing less than kind, respectful behavior from a date. Even with my current boyfriend, when we first started talking online, he sent me his number. I sent a funny reply back and said, well tell ya what, here is MY number, I’m not that kinda girl, ya know! 🙂 He called me, 20 minutes later and said he respected that kind of mentality from me.

Boundaries saved me a TON of drama in dating and while it meant usually just 1-2 dates from alot of guys, it saved some good-sized heartache, and allowed me to enjoy my life.

My boyfriend says I am definitely ballsy and not a doormat, and I am glad I FINALLY learned those lessons. Otherwise I’d still be letting men take a mile, if I gave an inch. Oy.

Anyone who has actually READ Argov’s book knows that, to her, “BITCH” is an acronym – for “Babe In Total Control of Herself.” She doesn’t reveal that until very late in the book, which is unfortunate for those who give it only a cursory glance standing in the “Dating & Relationships” aisle at Barnes & Noble. Because, as Evan points out, it’s all about boundaries. Being in control of one’s own behavior (as opposed to trying to control other people, a futile endeavor) is the definition of “having boundaries.” Argov’s book is a humorous, fun and thought-provoking read for any woman who’s wondered how she can be a loving member of a relationship without becoming a doormat in the process.

I wish the term “bitch” did not get intertwined with the concept of setting boundaries. The two have nothing to do with each other. “Bitch” is a term used by abusive sorts to bully women who do not conform to their wishes. Women sometimes use this term themselves as an expression of empowerment, but it seems silly: going overboard, if you will.

There is no insulting term to describe a strong man. There should be no insulting term to describe a strong woman. Strong men and women can both be kind, goodhearted (even tenderhearted), and reasonable. As Evan suggested, it’s not an either/or proposition. Be true to yourself and decent to others. That is all.

Bitch” is a term used by abusive sorts to bully women who do not conform to their wishes.

“Bitch” is also used to describe a woman who is a…bitch. Someone who uses insults or aggression to get her way. Someone who thinks it’s only ok if it’s done “her way”. Women I learned long ago to steer clear of.

The closest insult for men could be “dick” or “asshole”, or “overbearing”. It’s hard to say “equivalent” because a woman acting like this is, in her mind, emulating male aggressive behavior to get her way (what she percieves as a positive expression…like “it’s ok for men to behave this way” when it isn’t). That’s why she gets the label “bitch”. It would be hard to have an equivalent label for a man, because it’s predicated on the misperception of male aggressive behavior being tolerated or acceptable in circumstances where it really isn’t. So a guy behaving this way, say at work, would get known as a “real dick” or “an ass” or even labelled “childish”.

A truly strong woman isn’t deserving of such a label, and isn’t likely to receive it, except from some immature people. If a woman believes she’s a “strong woman” and not a “bitch”, but most people react to her like she’s a “bitch”…guess which category she probably falls into?

I’ve met, dated, and worked with both categories, and there’s a distinct difference. Strong women don’t fear being mislabelled, because they trust their own inner dialogue, their own principals and values, and accept that occasionally someone (weak) will misunderstand them (which is frustrating). Bitchy women don’t, so have to aggressively defend what they see as incursions against those values. Some of the strongest, non-bitchy women I’ve met at work were absolutely amazing to work with/for, and I never felt like they were bitchy.

I did some serious skimming of that book a couple of years ago, and found that out about what she means by being a bitch. It’s totally spot on. We can’t control what a guy is going to do, but we CAN control how we respond, and can determine if what they did or said, works for us, and take action accordingly.

I used to be a real doormat, let guys jerk me around about dates, let them fool me into thinking they were into a relationship with me when they clearly were just looking for a hookup, etc. I finally learned to have a voice and say, “I’m sorry but that kind of behavior is upsetting to me, hurtful, inconsiderate, etc.” That book really helped me set boundaries for myself. Doing that really gave me more freedom than I ever imagined. I didn’t feel so used, and abused, and victimized. I felt in control and more powerful. Sure, I couldn’t “make” a guy call if he said he would, I could not make a guy not disappear. But I learned last year, that I could control how I handled the disappearing acts, especially the ones who would say, “I hope we can be friends” and instead of my doing the “Oh sure, we can do that!” mentality I used to have, I would politely say, I’m sorry but my friends treat me with respect and kindness and courtesy. I wish you no ill will but I also do not want to see nor talk to you again.

Boundaries are awesome! And men DO like a girl with a sense of boundaries and who loves and respects herself.

I never said I am NOT looking for love, I actually REALLY am. But no matter how much oxytocin is flooding my body: I won’t fall in love with somebody who doesn’t make me feel good. All good relationships I had started easy, without much insecurity. If a guy doesn’t make me feel good pretty soon and leaves me hanging on, he is not somebody I want to committ to. But I guess that is the core issue of most people on here, they prefer to chase a dream or an illusion…

Speaking of boundaries, why would any woman want a guy for a relationship who clearly doesn’t know how to love her? Why not see him as what he is, a person not able to give her what she needs.

And all I am saying is: If he is not treating me well as a person, we might still get along in bed, and I would like to enjoy that type of thing while it lasts.

Agreed. Unfortunately, I learned that “I hope we can be friends” too often means, “I know I acted like a jerk and I hope you don’t hate me.” Or the man has a hidden agenda; I’ve sensed that some men weren’t happy in their current relationships, and wanted to keep the door open in case they decided to reconnect in the future.

Well, I have slowly learn how to enforce boundaries too (I hope). However, some times I am wondering whether the way you enforce the boundary makes all the difference between make and break in a relationship. For example, Evan says that men will want sex and it is up to us women to reveal little by little and playfully. I have been known to act insulted if some men wanted sex after a couple of dates, thinking they are only after that, but retrospectively maybe the way I refused was a deal-breaker for them and this is why they vanished when they did not get it?
Also, other times, I think is it best perhaps to just give a “mulligan” (I read that wonderful letter written by Evan’s wife when she was still his girlfriend) and remember that men are human too and make mistakes? If we give them grief and enforce our boundaries and show our disappointment about too many things again it cannot be good, isn’t it?

I agree we want a nice guy with balls and I concur that when it comes to a long term relationship men want a “” nice woman””. however, you do need to hook the guy in initially, ie look hot so he will then discover all your good personal qualities.
if you just look hot and then he discovers you are a bitch , he will be outta there pretty fast.

Well I hear where you are coming from. However, if a guy is really misbehaving, or is really pushing the issue, then you have every right to be insulted, if he’s truly insulted you. I’ve been insulted on a few first dates and I made it pretty damn clear that I wasn’t going to put up with that kind of behavior. If they felt it was a dealbreaker that I stood up for myself, well then, too bad. We have the right to stand up for ourselves and if a guy has a problem with it, well then there’s a red flag right there.
@ Ruby:
I agree with you. I got the vibe when I’d get the “I hope we can be friends” line that what they’re saying is, yep, I was an idiot but I don’t want to be the bad guy.” I had no problem with letting them be the bad guy, if they misbehaved. Which was why I told them, “No, we cannot be friends, since my FRIENDS don’t treat me like you just did.” I can forgive, but I don’t let people off the hook for their behaviors, cover for them, nor make excuses. If they did wrong, they did wrong, and they need to own that. I don’t want a man who can’t be accountable for his behavior, that’s cowardly.

Happy Clients

"I have read it 10 times already, and keep revisiting it every time I begin to even hint at a moment’s insecurity."

Brilliant! Once you understand where men are coming from, which I would not have been able to do without the help of "Why He Disappeared," it is very simple! I have never felt so relaxed around him, he knows this and wants to spend more time with me. His choice!

Karen M.

“I will never have to settle for a less than fabulous relationship ever again.”

He recently started referring to us as boyfriend and girlfriend and it makes my heart sing. I really feel that we are moving towards the next level in our relationship and I continue to listen to “Why He Disappeared” on a weekly basis to keep myself grounded.

He is everything I never knew I always wanted. He is kind and caring, with wonderful values. He makes me feel like the most special woman in the world. I never have to wonder how he feels about me, I KNOW.

Lisa R.

"I was able to learn from others’ experiences without having to go through all of it myself. That’s why the Inner Circle was invaluable."

I went from being unsure and inexperienced to having a great boyfriend who adores me and treats me really well and is now actively thinking and talking about marriage and kids.

Marie N.

“Without your help, I never could have imagined that I could be in a relationship like this one.”

I'm in my 60's and expected that I would not have a committed relationship again. I'm still dealing with issues internally of fear and past experiences, as is he. But we can talk about these things and know that we have something special.