I'm saying that his unwillingness to comply with a league memo is evidence of his inherent dooshiness not (as you apparently were suggesting) evidence of the advantage that videotaping (or whatever other behavior is frowned upon by league memos) conveys.

There is just as much proof that the Pats' cheating gave them an advantage as there is against it.

Hence, you should be banned. You refuse to acknowledge that they haven't won a title since Spygate and even consider it a possibility that maybe Belichick is still the guy who coached the Browns to nowhere and your team cheated to win titles.

And they did get caught. So yeah, it was cheating. Summarily, to make an analogy: Roger Clemens has never been caught cheating but the WHIFF of it is enough to keep him out of the Hall of Fame.

Kraft's relationship with Goodell has smoothed this over largely, but the truth is, if Gregg Williams is suspended for life from the NFL for something that had zero impact on the integrity of the game, then winning 3 straight titles while cheating should net far more than it did, if not an outright ban.

01-21-2013, 02:04 PM

fnordcircle

Explain to me how the Patriots are better on offense now that they can no longer tape defensive signals.

Explain to me how the Patriots have been to 4 AFCCGs and 2 SBs in the years that follow Spygate.

Then I'll believe that Spygate is more important than the fact that the Patriots won when they had a great defense and now they don't. Which is the real reason they're struggling.

01-21-2013, 02:08 PM

AFCEastFan

Quote:

Originally Posted by PMarsico9

There is just as much proof that the Pats' cheating gave them an advantage as there is against it. Hence, you should be banned.

LOL. Nice non-sequitur.

01-21-2013, 02:12 PM

GetaLife

The Patriots Super Bowl victories are as legite as Manti Te'os girlfriend!!:)

01-21-2013, 02:12 PM

PMarsico9

Quote:

Originally Posted by fnordcircle

Explain to me how the Patriots are better on offense now that they can no longer tape defensive signals.

Explain to me how the Patriots have been to 4 AFCCGs and 2 SBs in the years that follow Spygate.

Then I'll believe that Spygate is more important than the fact that the Patriots won when they had a great defense and now they don't. Which is the real reason they're struggling.

Prove they weren't doing more than just videotaping defensive signals?

Goodell has next to zero integrity due to this. Then his ridiculous handling of the means that millionaires were using to motivate each other, acting appalled.

You think Goodell wouldn't have cut his old pal Krafty a break?

You don't think that there wasn't more going on there than you are aware of?

01-21-2013, 02:14 PM

PMarsico9

Quote:

Originally Posted by AFCEastFan

LOL. Nice non-sequitur.

The only non-sequitur is regarding the inability to acknowledge that it could have had just as much to do with it as player losses, etc.

You have just as much proof as I do. If you can't deal with that, maybe go to a Pats board where you can all go back to blowing Kraft and your "genius," head coach.

01-21-2013, 02:24 PM

AFCEastFan

Quote:

Originally Posted by PMarsico9

The only non-sequitur is regarding the inability to acknowledge that it could have had just as much to do with it as player losses, etc.

You have just as much proof as I do. If you can't deal with that, maybe go to a Pats board where you can all go back to blowing Kraft and your "genius," head coach.

Deal with what? Your theories that I disagree with? You mean you actually have a different point of view than I do on a message board?? God forbid! Maybe YOU should be banned and relegated to a cesspool such as patsfans.com. That is equally harsh punishment for Pats and Jets fans alike.

01-21-2013, 02:31 PM

Vin

FACT : Pats haven't won diddly-squat since SPYGATE.

FACT : Without Tom Brady, Bill Bellidouche would be someone's Defensive-Coordinator on another team.

FACT : Without the cheating, there is no "duh....winning" as far as SB's go(or even getting there).

01-21-2013, 02:31 PM

PMarsico9

Quote:

Originally Posted by AFCEastFan

Deal with what? Your theories that I disagree with? You mean you actually have a different point of view than I do on a message board?? God forbid! Maybe YOU should be banned and relegated to a cesspool such as patsfans.com. That is equally harsh punishment for Pats and Jets fans alike.

You are the one saying my conclusion is illogical. There is no disputing the fact that since Mangini blew the whistle on the Pats, they haven't won a title.

All I'm saying is that before you go saying you disagree with my conclusion, you'd have be completely irrational to not think that it's a possibility.

It's far too convenient to simply say "Well it's just a coincidence because....[insert rationale here where you refuse to even consider the fact that your team cheated.]"

I have no issue with Pats fans on here. I have every issue when you come onto a Jets forum and become completely aghast and illogical regarding the Patriots as if they can do no wrong at all. Of course they can.

Acknowledge that it COULD HAVE had an impact. Acknowledge that, be reasonable.

01-21-2013, 02:48 PM

AFCEastFan

Quote:

Originally Posted by PMarsico9

You are the one saying my conclusion is illogical. There is no disputing the fact that since Mangini blew the whistle on the Pats, they haven't won a title.

All I'm saying is that before you go saying you disagree with my conclusion, you'd have be completely irrational to not think that it's a possibility.

It's far too convenient to simply say "Well it's just a coincidence because....[insert rationale here where you refuse to even consider the fact that your team cheated.]"

I have no issue with Pats fans on here. I have every issue when you come onto a Jets forum and become completely aghast and illogical regarding the Patriots as if they can do no wrong at all. Of course they can.

Acknowledge that it COULD HAVE had an impact. Acknowledge that, be reasonable.

Where do I say your conclusion is illogical? Where do I "become completely aghast and illogical"? I think your conclusion is wrong. Simple as that. That doesn't mean that: (a) I think you are a bad person; (b) I am worked up in the slightest about your views; or (c) I am correct.

Do you really care whether some anonymous stranger on a message board acknowledges that your conclusion is POSSIBLE? I mean, it was certainly POSSIBLE that two other utes drove to the Sac-O-Suds in an identical metallic mint green 1964 Buick Skylark. So fine, it is POSSIBLE. But I disagree with you. Can't we just leave it at that without you calling for my banning like a little 5-year-old on the playground?

01-21-2013, 02:50 PM

fnordcircle

Quote:

Originally Posted by PMarsico9

Prove they weren't doing more than just videotaping defensive signals?

While I'd love to play 'who can conjure up imaginary scenarios that they try to force the other to disprove' with you, the only thing we know for sure is they were taping defensive signals.

So again - if taping defensive signals was such an advantage why have the Patriots been better on offense since they were caught taping defensive signals?

01-21-2013, 02:52 PM

PMarsico9

Quote:

Originally Posted by AFCEastFan

So fine, it is POSSIBLE.

Fair enough.

01-21-2013, 02:52 PM

PMarsico9

Quote:

Originally Posted by fnordcircle

While I'd love to play 'who can conjure up imaginary scenarios that they try to force the other to disprove' with you, the only thing we know for sure is they were taping defensive signals.

So again - if taping defensive signals was such an advantage why have the Patriots been better on offense since they were caught taping defensive signals?

Statistically, sure.

Truth is, however, they haven't won a title since.

01-21-2013, 03:09 PM

JetPotato

Quote:

Originally Posted by AFCEastFan

I'm saying that his unwillingness to comply with a league memo is evidence of his inherent dooshiness not (as you apparently were suggesting) evidence of the advantage that videotaping (or whatever other behavior is frowned upon by league memos) conveys.

Right. Belichick sacrificed a first round pick, $500K of his own cash, $1M of his team's, and the reputation of an entire franchise just to prove he could and not because it provided him any advantage :rolleyes:

Still waiting for your explanation as to why the rule was in place.

01-21-2013, 03:10 PM

Bleedgreen

To say that the Patriots cheating (acknowledged by the league) didn't help them or offer an advantage is just dumb.

-Why do it for 7 years (that we know of) if it did not offer a competitive advantage?

-Anyone, please explain the 2005 USA Today article in which Ted Johnson admitted that the defense was given a sheet of signals and calls of their opponents an hour before the game and told to memorize it?

-Someone please explain why evidence was destroyed by the league and made public AFTER the Patriots were fined?

Believe me I could point out many other issues, and quotes from players both on the Patriots and opposing teams, but this post would be way too long.

The point is that I don't think anyone is saying that the Patriots would have been a bad team without cheating, they would be consistently very good. Just like the Steelers and Colts during the same time period, but winning 3 of 4 is a stretch and ignoring the obvious evidence, both actual and circumstantial, is ignorant with a little agenda driven bias mixed in.

01-21-2013, 03:28 PM

AFCEastFan

Quote:

Originally Posted by JetPotato

Right. Belichick sacrificed a first round pick, $500K of his own cash, $1M of his team's, and the reputation of an entire franchise just to prove he could and not because it provided him any advantage :rolleyes:

Still waiting for your explanation as to why the rule was in place.

Do you know why the rule was in place? If you want to give me a history lesson, feel free. My point is simply that the fact that Belichick ignored a league memo is irrelevant to the question of whether, and to what extent, taping signals provided a competitive advantage. Either it provided a competitive advantage or it didn't. But the fact that Belichick ignored the league memo just shows that he is a doosh, which we all agree on.

01-21-2013, 03:44 PM

JetPotato

Quote:

Originally Posted by AFCEastFan

Do you know why the rule was in place? If you want to give me a history lesson, feel free. My point is simply that the fact that Belichick ignored a league memo is irrelevant to the question of whether, and to what extent, taping signals provided a competitive advantage. Either it provided a competitive advantage or it didn't. But the fact that Belichick ignored the league memo just shows that he is a doosh, which we all agree on.

Wow. Dense.

The league has rules for two purposes: to maintain competitive balance and to provide a marketable product to fans.

It's pretty easy to see that this taping rule has nothing to do with presenting a face of the league.

If the penalty for gaining a competitive advantage on a single play by holding a defensive lineman is 10 yards, how much advantage would it take for the league to impose the stiffest sanctions in NFL history?

01-21-2013, 03:54 PM

AFCEastFan

Quote:

Originally Posted by JetPotato

Wow. Dense.

The league has rules for two purposes: to maintain competitive balance and to provide a marketable product to fans.

It's pretty easy to see that this taping rule has nothing to do with presenting a face of the league.

If the penalty for gaining a competitive advantage on a single play by holding a defensive lineman is 10 yards, how much advantage would it take for the league to impose the stiffest sanctions in NFL history?

Wow. Insightful.

So by your analysis, the penalty for videotaping signals that are on public display must be the equivalent of a million yard penalty or something. Thanks for clearing that up.

01-21-2013, 04:10 PM

PMarsico9

Quote:

Originally Posted by AFCEastFan

Wow. Insightful.

So by your analysis, the penalty for videotaping signals that are on public display must be the equivalent of a million yard penalty or something. Thanks for clearing that up.

If you cheat and get caught cheating and cheat in a manner that could possibly even affect the outcome of games or is even suspected of doing so, I'd say a million yard penalty is too low man.

As I said before: Goodell did go easy on the Pats.

Gregg Williams got Pete-Rose'd for what most real football fans will acknowledge was a stupid motivational ploy. It had zero impact on games.

Listening to Brett Favre's testimonials on how "the Saints were definitely trying to hurt me," is laughable.

01-21-2013, 04:13 PM

canadianjetsfan

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bleedgreen

To say that the Patriots cheating (acknowledged by the league) didn't help them or offer an advantage is just dumb.

-Why do it for 7 years (that we know of) if it did not offer a competitive advantage?

-Anyone, please explain the 2005 USA Today article in which Ted Johnson admitted that the defense was given a sheet of signals and calls of their opponents an hour before the game and told to memorize it?

-Someone please explain why evidence was destroyed by the league and made public AFTER the Patriots were fined?

Believe me I could point out many other issues, and quotes from players both on the Patriots and opposing teams, but this post would be way too long.

The point is that I don't think anyone is saying that the Patriots would have been a bad team without cheating, they would be consistently very good. Just like the Steelers and Colts during the same time period, but winning 3 of 4 is a stretch and ignoring the obvious evidence, both actual and circumstantial, is ignorant with a little agenda driven bias mixed in.

+1000%
I for one don’t have any gripes with the players on Pats team. The play with poise, professionalism and usually keep their noses clean. Guys like Brady, Wilfork are great players and i would love for them to be on our team.
But i cannot for the life of me ever respect Bill Bellicheck as a man, let alone as ahead coach. He knew he was “bending the rules” and the only reason that he’s never been banned or stirpped of his titles is because of the public relations disaster it would have caused.
I truly hope he never gets into Canton.