/ not the biggest sci-fi/fantasy reader// just started Revelation Space because some farker recommended it and so far it's a pretty fun read, thanks to whoever/// just saw lighthuggers referenced somewhere else on fark today

I've read a few books from the Revelation Space series, finishing the rest is on my to-do list. It's the second best series I've read so far. The Commonwealth series by Peter Hamilton is the best: Pandora's Star, Judas Unchained, The Dreaming Void, The Temporal Void, and The Evolutionary Void.

fredklein:Mad_Radhu: Of course the most disturbing part is the question of what happens from your point of view when you get transported. You'd think that from your POV, you die instantly as you are torn apart on a atomic level and that the person that is reconstituted on the other end only think they are you because they have all of your memories. There'd just be no way to know what happens from a person's perspective.

It helps if you Think Like a Dinosaur.

That's cool. I read the short story years ago and it had enough of an impact on me that I still remember it. I didn't know that they had made an Outer Limits episode out of it. Did they do a good job? I seem to recall that the story took place on a space station, not on the moon, but it's been a while since I read it.

Somaticasual:SpiceWeaselElzar: Somaticasual: Felgraf: liam76: About time they got cracking on that ansible thing.

If I recall correctly, quantum teleportation is still limited by c.

The problem with the ansible is that (if I'm remembering my quantum right: It's been 2 years since graduate quantum), when you entangle to particles-measuring one causes the *wave function* of the other to collapse: but you cannot control *how* it does so. (That is, I can measure an entangled particle and go "aha! This one has momentum X.. sot he other must have momentum -X, and its wave function has now collapsed! But I cannot go "I will ADD momentum X to my particle, causing the other to have momentum -X!")

Now, you might go "Wait! But if we can choose to collapse some wave functions, but not others, we could still use that as the basis for sending ones and zeroes!"But, again, that doesn't quite work: because (again, I'm pretty sure I'm remembering this right), you cannot measure to see if the waveform has collapsed yet. . I *think*. I definately recall a lecture explaining why the ansible couldn't work, but I admit I may be getting the details a bit wrong. =/.

A serious question for more quantumly-inclined farkers: Wouldn't heisenberg's uncertainty principle basically prevent the disassembly and reassembly concept of teleportation? Either that, or you're reassembling someone who's going to be immediately at absolute zero (from a lack of molecular movement, because if you can find the position you can't find the momentum, therefore everything assembles at zero motion)?

Isn't absolute zero theoretical? I mean, I get the idea, but has it ever been created in a lab? And if so, could it be observed?

Pretty sure it's theoretical at least in terms of observable phenomenon. But it stands to reason that if you stop time, or completely stop momentum, you would have absolute zero since heat relies on at least some level of movement.

So it seems like it could really only exist if time were not a factor, because it would start to heat up as soon as time moved forward. Assuming that what you transported was thermo conductive ( which it would need to be). But really, the whole point is, when it showed up, it would be really cold. Unless the original assumption is wrong.

Cannonade:Somaticasual: Felgraf: liam76: About time they got cracking on that ansible thing.

If I recall correctly, quantum teleportation is still limited by c.

The problem with the ansible is that (if I'm remembering my quantum right: It's been 2 years since graduate quantum), when you entangle to particles-measuring one causes the *wave function* of the other to collapse: but you cannot control *how* it does so. (That is, I can measure an entangled particle and go "aha! This one has momentum X.. sot he other must have momentum -X, and its wave function has now collapsed! But I cannot go "I will ADD momentum X to my particle, causing the other to have momentum -X!")

Now, you might go "Wait! But if we can choose to collapse some wave functions, but not others, we could still use that as the basis for sending ones and zeroes!"But, again, that doesn't quite work: because (again, I'm pretty sure I'm remembering this right), you cannot measure to see if the waveform has collapsed yet. . I *think*. I definately recall a lecture explaining why the ansible couldn't work, but I admit I may be getting the details a bit wrong. =/.

A serious question for more quantumly-inclined farkers: Wouldn't heisenberg's uncertainty principle basically prevent the disassembly and reassembly concept of teleportation? Either that, or you're reassembling someone who's going to be immediately at absolute zero (from a lack of molecular movement, because if you can find the position you can't find the momentum, therefore everything assembles at zero motion)?

I think you'd have to be frozen to start with in any case because the scanning/disassembly process couldn't be instantaneous. Anyone scanned alive would probably bleed out during the process.

Scanning could be instantaneous with quantum computers because theoretically (if I remember properly) they operate all algorithms and equations at the same time. Not disassembly...destruction. You have to completely destroy the first object (as is described in this article). The challenge for human or rather larger mass objects is the rebuild, which has to happen immediately as the original is destroyed. Again, relies on quantum mechanics and computers. If we EVER get there, it will be a long way off.

Mad_Radhu:Of course the most disturbing part is the question of what happens from your point of view when you get transported. You'd think that from your POV, you die instantly as you are torn apart on a atomic level and that the person that is reconstituted on the other end only think they are you because they have all of your memories. There'd just be no way to know what happens from a person's perspective.

/ not the biggest sci-fi/fantasy reader// just started Revelation Space because some farker recommended it and so far it's a pretty fun read, thanks to whoever/// just saw lighthuggers referenced somewhere else on fark today

I've read a few books from the Revelation Space series, finishing the rest is on my to-do list. It's the second best series I've read so far. The Commonwealth series by Peter Hamilton is the best: Pandora's Star, Judas Unchained, The Dreaming Void, The Temporal Void, and The Evolutionary Void.

Awesome, added to my book list, thanks. Next time I feel like reading sci-fi I'll grab a copy of Pandora's Star.

Mad_Radhu:Of course the most disturbing part is the question of what happens from your point of view when you get transported. You'd think that from your POV, you die instantly as you are torn apart on a atomic level and that the person that is reconstituted on the other end only think they are you because they have all of your memories. There'd just be no way to know what happens from a person's perspective.

Of course the most disturbing part is the question of what happens from your point of view when you get transported. You'd think that from your POV, you die instantly as you are torn apart on a atomic level and that the person that is reconstituted on the other end only think they are you because they have all of your memories. There'd just be no way to know what happens from a person's perspective.

Pretty sure it's theoretical at least in terms of observable phenomenon. But it stands to reason that if you stop time, or completely stop momentum, you would have absolute zero since heat relies on at least some level of movement.

It's not theoretical. We can't achieve it here on Eart ...

If you look into it you'll find that the vacuum of space is a few degrees above absolute zero, they used that fact to help pinpoint the big bang.

Cannonade:I think you'd have to be frozen to start with in any case because the scanning/disassembly process couldn't be instantaneous. Anyone scanned alive would probably bleed out during the process.

Jim_Callahan:Short version: nothing that makes an individual human individual or human is susceptible to Heisenberg uncertainty. Quantum states are irrelevant to biological and mental function. A reassembling teleporter doesn't have to get every particle in the right place to make you you.

ciberido:Cannonade: I think you'd have to be frozen to start with in any case because the scanning/disassembly process couldn't be instantaneous. Anyone scanned alive would probably bleed out during the process.

Of course the most disturbing part is the question of what happens from your point of view when you get transported. You'd think that from your POV, you die instantly as you are torn apart on a atomic level and that the person that is reconstituted on the other end only think they are you because they have all of your memories. There'd just be no way to know what happens from a person's perspective.

Have you seen this?

[i141.photobucket.com image 214x317]

Yep. I think it was also addressed in a ST:TNG episode where there two Rikers.

/ not the biggest sci-fi/fantasy reader// just started Revelation Space because some farker recommended it and so far it's a pretty fun read, thanks to whoever/// just saw lighthuggers referenced somewhere else on fark today

Enjoy!

Be warned, LeGuin doesn't write what most people think of when they think Sci-Fi... Yes, there is a galaxy-spanning civilization and FTL communication, just as there are wizards and dragons in her Earthsea trilogy, but those are just used as backdrop for very low-key, very human stories.

mark625:fredklein: Mad_Radhu: Of course the most disturbing part is the question of what happens from your point of view when you get transported. You'd think that from your POV, you die instantly as you are torn apart on a atomic level and that the person that is reconstituted on the other end only think they are you because they have all of your memories. There'd just be no way to know what happens from a person's perspective.

It helps if you Think Like a Dinosaur.

That's cool. I read the short story years ago and it had enough of an impact on me that I still remember it. I didn't know that they had made an Outer Limits episode out of it. Did they do a good job? I seem to recall that the story took place on a space station, not on the moon, but it's been a while since I read it.

As I recall it was an 'okay' adaptation. I believe the alien base was on the far side of the moon due to reduced 'interference' from earth.

arethereanybeernamesleft:If the experiment described were actually pure quantum information teleportation, what is the medium of the "signal"?

If there's a medium, it's not teleportation, right?

Also, because no mass is transferred, 'teleportation' is a misnomer (or maybe hyper-technically accurate label) from the start.

I believe there is an original medium of entangled particle pairs, that are then split and measuring the quantum state of one causes the other to go to that state also, untangling at the same time. So the quantum state is "teleported" but yeah, kind of dodgy using that word.

rkettens:If you look into it you'll find that the vacuum of space is a few degrees above absolute zero, they used that fact to help pinpoint the big bang.

This. Back when I was doing experiments on infrared detectors for the James Webb telescope we had to take the detectors down to 32 Kelvin to mimic the environment of space (and also to see anything). That's damn cold, but not absolute zero.

As you go further out from the solar system things obviously get colder, but you still never hit absolute zero due to cosmic radiation.

LazarusLong42:StoneColdAtheist: FTFA: "In such a future 'quantum internet', quantum teleportation will be a key protocol for the transmission of informationpeople between quantum computersstepping disks."

There...FTFY, Subs.

/might be obscure

I really hope that's not obscure. Especially since Niven was mentioned upthread...

LazarusLong42:StoneColdAtheist: FTFA: "In such a future 'quantum internet', quantum teleportation will be a key protocol for the transmission of informationpeople between quantum computersstepping disks."

There...FTFY, Subs.

/might be obscure

I really hope that's not obscure. Especially since Niven was mentioned upthread...

In my defense I had not yet read that far in the thread.

/have a hard copy of nearly every Niven book and anthology//missing and have not yet read one of the Man-Kzin Wars books

fredklein:Mad_Radhu: Of course the most disturbing part is the question of what happens from your point of view when you get transported. You'd think that from your POV, you die instantly as you are torn apart on a atomic level and that the person that is reconstituted on the other end only think they are you because they have all of your memories. There'd just be no way to know what happens from a person's perspective.

It helps if you Think Like a Dinosaur.

If they found a way to break apart and reassemble the exact same molecules that made up you, it'd still be you, right? Now if they just broke up your molecules, stored your data in a machine and then made a new you out of different molecules, then yes, the original you would pretty much die. (And I think that's what happens in Star Trek. Remember that episode where they had a transporter accident and the thing spat out two copies of Riker instead of one? I would have gotten pretty nervous about stepping into one of those things after that. And let's not even talk about the whole "transporter accidentally turning people into linguini" thing that happened in the first Star Trek movie.)

I think instead of teleportation in the future, we'll have replicators--3D printers that can duplicate any matter using a data file entered into it (either directly or transmitted to it over an expanse of thousands of miles.) We kind of sort of have that thing now in its most primitive stages...

yourmomlovestetris:fredklein: Mad_Radhu: Of course the most disturbing part is the question of what happens from your point of view when you get transported. You'd think that from your POV, you die instantly as you are torn apart on a atomic level and that the person that is reconstituted on the other end only think they are you because they have all of your memories. There'd just be no way to know what happens from a person's perspective.

It helps if you Think Like a Dinosaur.

If they found a way to break apart and reassemble the exact same molecules that made up you, it'd still be you, right? Now if they just broke up your molecules, stored your data in a machine and then made a new you out of different molecules, then yes, the original you would pretty much die.

This does not follow. There is nothing special to distinguish one identically-composed molecule from another. Whether the molecules used to "reintegrate" you are the same molecules that were disintegrated makes no difference from a physical standpoint.

This has troubling implications re: cloning if you're still hung up on the concept of "souls".

Of course the most disturbing part is the question of what happens from your point of view when you get transported. You'd think that from your POV, you die instantly as you are torn apart on a atomic level and that the person that is reconstituted on the other end only think they are you because they have all of your memories. There'd just be no way to know what happens from a person's perspective.

It isn't like the matter in your body is proprietary or anything; at an atomic and quantum level, your physical self cycles through with "new" matter every week or so. Discrete macro-matterforms (I just made that up because it sounded funny) are more like a pattern in space than a locked relationship between specific instances of matter. As such, teleportation doesn't really present the problem you describe here. You're already becoming a "new person" in a material sense on a regular basis; teleportation -assuming ~100% pattern fidelity- would just accomplish the process faster while transporting you to a different location in the process.

Coincidentally, this is also why the worry about being transported into something isn't much of a concern(for you at least); you'd be reassembled out of the ambient matter at the location.