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The SCADA system isn't flawed, the whole prison system in U.S. is. Not only have studies shown that there is no need for such locked down prison facilities, but it's also demonstrated by real life experiences in Norway. Almost all of Norway's prisons are open. Their objective isn't locking down people but correct behaviour. The purpose is to create real life environment, complete with saunas, sunbeds and own rooms and furniture [dailymail.co.uk]. It makes much more sense too. If you just lock down people for years they are always going to stay criminals. If you try to correct their behaviour and reintroduce them to system and proper behavior, they will learn and also stay out of prisons in future. It's very telling that U.S. has one of the highest percentages of their people in prisons. That system clearly isn't working.

On top of that you have the highly conservative Daily Mail, as the grandparent poster linked, stating unabashedly that the system on Bastoy has proven itself as being more effective than Norwegian closed (traditional) prisons, which is a position that is quite controversial for the newspaper and not at all towing the party line. That may not have the integrity of a longitudinal study conducted by unbiased researchers, but the tour escort is quoted as saying that there has only been one attempted escape in all of Bastoy's years of operation, and that the region has the lowest re-offending rate in all of Europe despite Norway's absence of a death penalty or life sentence. These are not light claims.

Appeal to authority – (argumentum ad verecundiam) deductively fallacious; even legitimate authorities speaking on their areas of expertise may affirm a falsehood. However, if not using a deductive argument, a logical fallacy is only asserted when the source is not a legitimate expert on the topic at hand, or their conclusion(s) are in direct opposition to other expert consensus. Appeal to authority does not condone to agreeing to the argument. Formal fallacies [wikipedia.org]

The Daily Mail article contains this little nugget, which I alluded to in my earlier post:

And yet, an extensive new study undertaken by researchers across all the Nordic countries reveals that the reoffending average across Europe is about 70-75 per cent. In Denmark, Sweden and Finland, the average is 30 per cent. In Norway it is 20 per cent. Thus Bastoy, at just 16 per cent, has the lowest reoffending rate in Europe.

If you or anyone else really has the nerve to call this argumentum ad verecundiam, then I kindly request that you turn in your logic text book and go stand in a corner. I was illuminating my point with a spurious observation that even the Daily Mail, a newspaper not known for dealing with the facts, was accepting the reasoning at hand. That's not the same as "they feel it's true, so it's true." I am starting to get sic

"Even the Daily Mail thinks it's true" was not the basis of my argument. I gave a long list of scientific papers on the topic and then pointed out that the Daily Mail was unable to lie its way out of what was at hand. I discussed one of the claims made in the Daily Mail article, a presumably factual statement made by expert who works at Bastoy. At no point did I state:

(a) "it's true because the Daily Mail says so."

I did aim to communicate the following, however:

(b) "even the Daily Mail is convinced, because a prison guard said Bastoy has the lowest re-offending rate in Europe. That it does is remarkable, and supports the GP's claim."

(And technically this is incorrect since the prison guard didn't say it; that was research co

(Also, I believe this [wiley.com] is most likely the study that the Daily Mail article references, not that I have sufficient access to check it for certain, and like most newspapers they don't exactly include a bibliography.)

A whinging rant that claims JFGI is part of the readers job description is hardly an ass whooping. I reject that assertion and assert that the author who wrote "Studies show" should JFGI. TFA in that same post was infotainment at the Daily Mail, a source that has been excoriated here in the past. I agree that the system is broken but that post didn't offer anything more than a troll for eyeballs and advertising revenue that the eyeballs attract.

Look what happened when there was that shooter at the kids' camp. The police did not even know how to respond.

Yes they did, but the shooter had planned it well. First bomb in city center and then go to an island to shoot kids. It would had been disaster everywhere in world.

The United States is not Norway. Norway does not have violent illegal immigrant gangbangers. If they did, they would have to create a real prison system.

Which is mostly caused by the stupid war on drugs. If you just let your people get high there wouldn't be any reason for such violent immigrant crimes that mostly come from Mexico. There was lots of crime involving bootleg alcohol when it was banned too. All that went away when alcohol was legalized.

There was lots of crime involving bootleg alcohol when it was banned too. All that went away when alcohol was legalized.

Actually it diversified - it was a huge boost for organized crime syndicates like the mafia. We should expect the same sort of 50+ year run for everybody who came up in the drug cartel system to die off before we are really free of the effects of the drug war. Just in time for everybody to forget the lessons of the past and shoot ourselves in the foot with some new arbitrary contraband.

Yes, but I can easily see a world where drugs are legal and gang members are doing drive-bys over bootleg Gucci purses and bootleg DVDs.

I can postulate it, but it seems rather unlikely. Gucci purses and legal DVDs are regularly available, which sets a ceiling on the price for the bootlegs; at some point sale of the merchandise fails to cover the overhead of running a criminal enterprise.

The majority of violent gangbangers are not immigrants. The majority of criminals in the U.S. aren't even minorities..

The U.S. prison system is only a "real" prison system because there are "real" profits to be made from keeping people locked up for decades. The more the industry develops the more investors profit. All that prison tech that your tax dollars are paying for are more to keep shareholders happy than to do anything to the prisoners. But as long as it helps you sleep at night knowing your bei

While private prisons are certainly feeding into the problem, I don't think they are nearly as responsible for the issues as most/. seem to think they are. There is a whole broken system in the US, and the prisons are only a part of it.

Another key component is the media, which to steal a line from Jon Stewart, is biased towards sensationalism and laziness. The media generates profits by scaring people, and the politicians take advantage of this to introduce new laws aimed at "fixing" this problem(even

Norway is an entirely different country with a far more homogeneous population and completely different social dynamics. At the prison you mention re-offend rates were 16%. At a normal Norwegian prison (not the cushy kind) re-offend rates were only 20% - 4% more.
Recidivism varies per state in the US. Arizona is pretty close to norway with 24.6%. Nevada was at 29.2. California was at 70% and connecticut was at 56%.
There are social issues involved. wikipedia says that in NYC, police arrest 200k black males every year, out of a total population of 1200k. 1/6th of that particular group gets arrested EVERY YEAR.
You can't solve that problem by making jail more inviting, but you can't necessarily solve it by making jail worse. Thats why its a difficult dilemma - it isn't easy to solve.

It's not about making jail more inviting. A prison system that is civilized and actually _actively_ tries to help prisoners gives them fewer excuses to say that "They are against Us" and more reasons to feel part of the Main Tribe, to leave their current gang (their old tribe) and rejoin mainstream society (the "main tribe").

If you feel part of the tribe you are less likely to go against it than if you feel like you're in a different tribe. After all when they're in their gang it's not just fear of punishment that keeps them in compliance with their gang traditions and rules.

It doesn't make noncompliance impossible, but it seems more likely than if you keep reinforcing the "Us vs Them" thinking - e.g. humiliating them, treating them with contempt, not even allowing them to vote (very common in the US), etc.

It's different to be still considered part of the tribe and merely being in a "time out" for committing crimes, than to be considered a "prisoner" and a member of a different tribe - just POWs waiting to get out and continue their war against mainstream society (who is conducting a war against them).

Most (not all) humans are social creatures. Yes such stuff won't work on a few but maybe nothing is likely to work on them[1]. But when you have people who are members of gangs following gang rules, why can't you make them members of "Our Gang" and follow our rules?

[1] Even so you could still keep two prisons, one more open and one more for those who have proven to be a persistent danger to society and really need to be kept away for safety reasons (but not completely isolated!) for a legally limited amount of time.

[1] Even so you could still keep two prisons, one more open and one more for those who have proven to be a persistent danger to society and really need to be kept away for safety reasons (but not completely isolated!) for a legally limited amount of time.

we do. Thats why there are different security prisons. Less security, more open.

And you didn't address anything else I've said. Your points are all wonderful but even within the united states there are huge variances in recidivism. Most of it is

That's exactly what I'm talking about. As long as you do not fix that, the problem will remain. You put them in US style prisons and they'll certainly continue believing they are not your gang, and for good reason - by putting them in US style prisons you are reinforcing the belief that they are not your gang.

And as long as people "outside" continue believing "the prisoners are not the same gang", the problem of reintegration will remain and hence there will be higher recidivism.

ok I am a felon for life.I turned 21 in prison in California/1968 for 3 joints. During my time-6 weeks-in the routing system of the penal system I was assigned to the library to compile data for the past 6 years of inmate data. I made a type of excel using legal sized paper and finished the project before I was shipped to Chino to work as a drafter.The data showed the largest percent came for LA and SF and was about even between blacks and mexicans with native americans being the lowest.Education was 10th g

Ever hear the saying " 3 hots and a cot".Life is stable for them with a place to eat/sleep. Many in the "free" outside world today would be glad to have that "insurance" as they sleep under a bridge/wherever.

In Norway and some other countries people don't have to commit a crime just to get shelter and/or food. I think it works out cheaper their way - less crime, fewer expensive prisons. Seems more civilized too.

You'll get many people bumming around, but they probably leech/cost less than those getting trillion dollar bailouts, or stupid patents that slow progress. Some will get bored eventually and try to do something productive or entertaining. Compose music, make videos, maybe even write OSS.

well, I'm not racist personally. I don't think statistics are racist either, although they can sometimes be biased.

But those stats underscore a deep difference between Norway and the US.

In Norway 86% of people are ethnic Norwegians. Only about 5% of the country attends church regularly, but 80% of the country has membership to the church of Norway. That situation doesn't reflect what's going on in the states, especially in highly ghettoized communities that minorities tend to settle in.

No argument on any count. In no way did I mean to imply that I think you displayed any hint of racism. It's just that it seems any time anyone talks about racial social issues without being overtly PC about it they are accused of racism.

Does Norway also have the Mob and gangs that will murder the other prisoners in their sleep? Half the reason for the bars and militarized environment in US prisons is to prevent the gangs from killing each other.

Does Norway also have the Mob and gangs that will murder the other prisoners in their sleep?

Anders Behring Breivik, the Utøya shooter, is kept away from the other prisoners so they won't kill him. (A price tag has been put on his head) At the moment the prison is planning to build a high security department [aftenposten.no] (article in norwegian) for him. So the problem is here but it's not as big as in the USA (yet).

Anders Behring Breivik, the UtÃya shooter, is kept away from the other prisoners so they won't kill him. (A price tag has been put on his head) At the moment the prison is planning to build a high security department (article in norwegian) for him. So the problem is here but it's not as big as in the USA (yet).

Arguably, it's not the same problem - gang warfare - than in the US, but a different problem - even murderers needing someone to look down upon - altogether.

TFA mentioned that the Corrections Officers were seen checking Gmail on their control computers, I rather doubt that COs would be able to install Mozilla or anything else on a linux box, where as Windows box comes with IE pre-installed and almost impossible to remove. What dumbfounded me is why the control computers aren't completely air-gapped from the public internet.

The purpose of prisons (in US and elsewhere) is not to correct behavior but to provide tools and facilities to control people. This creates an environment of fear that benefits rulers to enjoy dictatorial powers and still simulating democracy.

You are missing the point, midway through the article and I quote;
'and his punishment was to be sent back to a closed prison.'
regardless if it happened to one or one hundred inmates, the only way such rehabilitation can work is if the threat of returning to 'closed' prison exists. If that threat where not viable the inmates would have no reason to rehabilitate themselves.

Tell this to our Harper led conservative government. They don't care about recidivism, only for points with election promises. And the big payers are the provinces. Quebec is somewhat like Norway, in that keeping young offenders out of prison allows for the individual to get job training, more education and more self worth. The Conservative action is to send the individuals to prison. Prisons are great training grounds for more crime. The Feds are the rule makers; the provinces are the rules enforcers.

But.... but... but... where in your mythical Nogwegian [wikipedia.org] system is there room for vote-hungry politicians to fry poor negro prisoners? Answer me that! Why should we have a prison system that doesn't support our hard-bribe-taking politicians and instead is concerned with things like lowering crime rates and improving society?

You need to look at complete picture when fixing bugs and vulnerabilities. There wouldn't be need for any SCADA system to begin with if U.S. fixed its prison system. Currently it's only making money for those who own prisons. It's mind blowing that something like prisons would be commercially run.

The problem is a fundamentalist, puritanical desire to render retribution from prisoners instead of addressing the real underlying issues. The current system is disaster to the guilty it warehouses and an obscenity to the innocent people wrongly convicted. Its just easier to blame people, have public lynchings and dispose of the bodies, than actually look at the issues of organized crime, drug abuse, violence in our culture and what is quickly becoming a nation which criminalizes its poor. Growing studies show that there is no justice in the justice system. Cameron Todd Willingham was executed in Texas this year, with what amounts now to a mountain of evidence that he was innocent of any crime. Confronted with either looking soft on crime or doing the right thing, Governor Perry chose instead to have an innocent man executed. Capital punishment is the new coliseum. There isn't a single sane argument that supports capital punishment.

Prison's should be divided into those who can be rehabilitated and those that can't or shouldn't be. Both sides of the prison can do useful work, earn a wage that provides for their families, restitution to victims and pay their own cost of living. For those in the side supporting rehabilitation, giving them job skills and real life skills, that will serve them when they leave will dramatically reduce recidivism. Separating career criminals from young people who made a mistake, is a vital step in ending the criminal cycle. Keeping the most dangerous and violent offenders separate, and ensuring that they aren't in a position to do harm, will immediately enhance the security for both guards and inmates.

Prison's should be divided into those who can be rehabilitated and those that can't or shouldn't be. Both sides of the prison can do useful work, earn a wage that provides for their families, restitution to victims and pay their own cost of living. For those in the side supporting rehabilitation, giving them job skills and real life skills, that will serve them when they leave will dramatically reduce recidivism. Separating career criminals from young people who made a mistake, is a vital step in ending the criminal cycle. Keeping the most dangerous and violent offenders separate, and ensuring that they aren't in a position to do harm, will immediately enhance the security for both guards and inmates.

I'm perplexed as to how you propose these "people" be divided into those who can be rehabilitated and those that can't or shouldn't be, especially the one you feel shouldn't be. I know in my state, all inmates are in-processed at a central location and given intensive psychological and behavioral evaluations. After that they are transferred to correctional facilities based on their violence potential, treatment and or vocational needs and type of offense they were convicted of. Our Judicial and Correction

You need to look at complete picture when fixing bugs and vulnerabilities. There wouldn't be need for any SCADA system to begin with if U.S. fixed its prison system. Currently it's only making money for those who own prisons. It's mind blowing that something like prisons would be commercially run.

I don't think you know what SCADA is. I can assure you that there are uses for SCADA outside of prisons and the vulnerabilities that exist within prisons are the same for those outside of prisons. The main difference what happens if they do affect a prison.
To tie this back into tech talk though, SCADA is currently actively preventing a Linux file system creator from continuing his work. There's a conspiracy theory there, I'm sure.

"News for nerds, stuff that matters". I'd call prisons "stuff that matters". And nowhere did you attempt to refute any of the perfectly valid points made in the parent. You're simply complaining because he has a different opinion.

"News for nerds, stuff that matters". I'd call prisons "stuff that matters". And nowhere did you attempt to refute any of the perfectly valid points made in the parent. You're simply complaining because he has a different opinion.

No, I'm complaining because we'd still have the SCADA vulnerability even if we "reformed" the prison system and figured out how to put fewer people in jail. No matter what we do, we're going to have prisons because we're going to have a certain number of society members who will commit crimes. And as long as we have one prison with a vulnerable SCADA controlled lock system, we still have a problem.

We could do all the stuff the GP posts about. We could make drugs legal, which would probably reduce the pri

This post does appear to provide some additional information on the issue, and arguably a serious vulnerability deserves all the press it can get.
Prisons aren't the only facilities where SCADA tampering could create a risk for the public, so expect a few more "duplicates" in 2012 as researchers audit other installations.

Just watching their investors cash.
Why have expensive, tech trained local "union" staff on site when you can a few remote experts to watch over aspects of your state wide prison IT system.
Why hire so many expensive state accredited IT staff when you can log in a few - over weekends, nights - to solve issues, updates.
It also locks down the contractors systems - no locals can sit around working out a new system - a low bid is paid for by a long term cash stream for remote 'support'.

Older prisons had a lot of big lever or EM based systems for opening doors and they where not setup in way for the people at the controls to see where the doors are.

But let's a the basic level at the alot of the SCADA boards hookup up to the cells are likely real basic more so in older prisons just some kind of network hook up + switches + relays or SCR hooked to them. Now say you run that to a center control room then you have a network there. Now let's say you want to run camera feeds to same control room

Due to budget downsizing and the retirement of high tech incarceration facilities, American prisoners will henceforth be housed in Russian gulags, where door locking vulnerabilities do not matter, since the main security algorithm depends only on thousands of kilometres of snow and ice...

Let me tell you something here. I just got out of a state prison in the US 2 months ago. I served 10 years (and yes I have a/. account, my old pre-prison one is here to but I don't remember the password, I am not going to suffer the flaming rantings of trolls to my account so I am posting this AC).

I did the crime. Did I deserve punishment for what I did? Definitely, I hurt a lot of people through my actions, not just my victim. However, while I cannot speak for the system in other countries, the system here is very flawed. It gives lip service to rehabilitation, but does very little to actually produce it. In my experience, most of the teachers and counselors in prison are there for two reasons. One, they could not hold a real teaching or counseling job because they were incompetent, lazy, or both. Two, the prison system gives them a place where they can sit, collect great benefits and have inmates do most of the work. I tutored in a Software class for 7 years while I was inside and the the teacher could not even be bothered to learn windows XP (her mind was stuck on DOS and didn't know that well). She was well meaning, but also ignorant and clueless. There are exceptions to this, but it is largely the rule.

The system is hugely exploitative. In the Virginia system you have Virginia Correctional Enterprises. In the Feds you have FPI, and other states have similar programs. They pay more than any other job in prison (I made.45c/hr as a tutor and that was the highest non industry pay available). They still only pay at most $2.00/hr or so. Now, I know the state is housing, feeding, and guarding you but if you work in industry, you will make uniforms, or furniture, or other things that a PRIVATE COMPANY is making millions on, and you don't have enough to send home or pay child support. Oh, yeah in VA they can garnish a $50/month paycheck for child support while you are incarcerated.

The system is corrupt. I am not just talking about low level corruption of correctional officers accepting bribes or smuggling contraband, which havens daily. But on and up to the top. From administrative staff skimming commissary funds to hold officer parties, to buying equipment for a band room on state funds, never opening the band room then selling the equipment. I saw the latter one happen myself. Hell in VA the state code gives the director of DOC the permission to take bribes and kickbacks! [virginia.gov]

5. To accept, hold and enjoy gifts, donations and bequests on behalf of the Department from the United States government and agencies and instrumentalities thereof, and any other source, subject to the approval of the Governor. To these ends, the Director shall have the power to comply with such conditions and execute such agreements as may be necessary, convenient or desirable, consistent with applicable standards and goals of the Board;

I have to give a view (somewhat) from the other side as well. I have seen posts recommending separating the 'bad' criminals from the ones who can be rehabilitated. How do you propose to do that? Based on the crime? Their behavior while imprisoned? I spent ten years inside and there are people who are so good at gaming and manipulating ANY system it would make your jaw drop. I personally am not good at manipulating people and don't want to be, but in order to survive there were many times I had to bend and break the rules. For me, it was making my own soldering gun and tools and collecting contraband parts to repair other inmates electronics. (Most people don't want to fuck with the guy who can fix their TV for them cheaply when it breaks). For others it might be stealing supplies or running a gambling pool. Finding the right way to classify and group prisoners is an exceedingly difficult prospect, and to be quite frank, most of the staff and administration at these facilities (at least in my exp