But isn't this the crux of the matter, Median? Without confirmation bias could any religion survive at all? I mean, without CB everyone who prays would quickly see that nothing happens - ever - when one prays.

A religion can certainly survive without confirmation bias getting in the way. One need only bring to bear The Ultimate TrumpcardTM - mysterious ways. Absolutely nothing can overcome it. There is literally no outcome of any kind that cannot be ascribed to the mysterious ways of an omnipotent, omniscient entity.

Something happened that is incongruent to expectation - for example, an entity that can will anything to happen, doesn't want bad things to happen, but bad things happen? Mysterious ways.Prayer not answered? Mysterious ways.Absolutely zero confirming events, outcomes, results, or state of reality that coincide with the existence of god? Mysterious ways.

When you've got The Ultimate TrumpcardTM handy, there is no need for this petty 'confirmation' of anything. Such confirmation is unnecessary and gratuitous. It's just true. Doesn't seem true? Mysterious ways.

"When we landed on the moon, that was the point where god should have come up and said 'hello'. Because if you invent some creatures, put them on the blue one and they make it to the grey one, you f**king turn up and say 'well done'."

When you encourage Christians to begin studying Christian Apologetics (such as sites like CARM.org) it is often the quickest way for a Christian to lose their faith and embrace reason.

Christian Apologetics was definitely the catalyst to my de-conversion. I'll never forget the day I was searching for answers to one of the ambiguously revealed doctrines of the bible and I set my bible down on the table next to the "Big Book of Bible Difficulties" by popular Christian apologists Norman Geisler and Thomas Howe. The "Big Book of Bible Difficulties" appeared to be twice the size of my bible.

In addition, as a former Christian, I was fortunate to be able to listen to different podcasts throughout the entire day at my job. I would download many Christian apologetic podcasts and would listen to many different pastors on different Christian doctrines. It affected my faith when I heard different Christian apologists argue with other Christian apologist on various doctrines. Honestly, most of the time I found that both sides of an argument was credible as both sides could cherry-pick different verses to support their argument concerning a specific Christian doctrine.

Eventually I lost my faith as I concluded that the bible was written by different authors at different times who had different purposes and different theologies and that's why there are so many different interpretations on different doctrines. This went entirely against what I grew up believing---THE BIBLE IS THE INERRANT AND INFALLIBLE WORD OF GOD!

What really affected my faith is when I started hearing different Christian/Atheist debates through podcasting and most of the time I found myself agreeing with the Atheist. A good recommendation is "God Debate" through I-tunes podcasts. In addition, I would download various Christian Q and A podcasts and discover that different Christians had different answers to the same questions that were asked.

I wanted to be the Christian dad and husband that could answer any biblical question my son approached me with. I immersed myself in Christian apologetics. It was difficult for me to accept that there is not just ONE Christian argument that represents practically any Christian doctrine presented in the bible. I finally lost my faith when I found out that the doctrine of salvation isn't even clear in the bible.

I left my former Church because I disagreed with the pastor's gospel. I remained a Christian for 6 months after my decision to leave my Church and ran a "home Church" with my family thinking we had the correct gospel. And then after plowing through the many Christian apologetic arguments that went against my view on various Christian doctrines, I couldn't remain arrogant enough to think that I (or any other Christian) had the truth since the bible is written so ambiguously.

I used to convince my family that my view on all the different Christian doctrines was the correct view and that all the other Christians who disagree with me twisted "scripture". But I was too intellectually honest to remain this arrogant.

I have come a long way in the last year because now it makes complete sense that the entire idea of different Christians twisting scripture is relative. One Christian apologist thinks another Christian apologist twists scripture. Both actually have legitimate arguments since there is a lot of support for both arguments concerning any various doctrine. One apologist thinks another apologist is twisting scripture and so on. The fact is, it's impossible NOT to twist scripture since most every doctrine presented in the bible is ambiguous.

CONCLUSION: THIS IS PRECISELY WHY MOST ATHEIST'S REJECT THE BIBLE AS AUTHORITATIVE!!!

"The most detestable wickedness, the most horrid cruelties, and the greatest miseries, that have afflicted the human race, have had their origin in this thing called revelation, or revealed religion."~Thomas Paine (The Age of Reason)

You believe that Demons have a hold on all that you disagree with,and everything you believe is "true",while Mooby make think you are a fucking nut-bar and will dismiss your "Demon" theories as hogwash

Both you and Mooby think you are right,see the problem here? You are both Christians that can't agree on even the base principles of your religion

Please do not try to speak for Mooby.

Also, disagreement on a topic does not mean the topic itself is wrong or should be abandoned.

You believe that Demons have a hold on all that you disagree with,and everything you believe is "true",while Mooby make think you are a fucking nut-bar and will dismiss your "Demon" theories as hogwash

Both you and Mooby think you are right,see the problem here? You are both Christians that can't agree on even the base principles of your religion

Please do not try to speak for Mooby.

Also, disagreement on a topic does not mean the topic itself is wrong or should be abandoned.

apologies,I was more trying to compare the way theists look at the same religion,but with very differing views on how it is arrived at.

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There's no right there's no wrong,there's just popular opinion (Brad Pitt as Jeffery Goines in 12 monkeys)

When you encourage Christians to begin studying Christian Apologetics (such as sites like CARM.org) it is often the quickest way for a Christian to lose their faith and embrace reason.

Christian Apologetics was definitely the catalyst to my de-conversion. I'll never forget the day I was searching for answers to one of the ambiguously revealed doctrines of the bible and I set my bible down on the table next to the "Big Book of Bible Difficulties" by popular Christian apologists Norman Geisler and Thomas Howe. The "Big Book of Bible Difficulties" appeared to be twice the size of my bible.

In addition, as a former Christian, I was fortunate to be able to listen to different podcasts throughout the entire day at my job. I would download many Christian apologetic podcasts and would listen to many different pastors on different Christian doctrines. It affected my faith when I heard different Christian apologists argue with other Christian apologist on various doctrines. Honestly, most of the time I found that both sides of an argument was credible as both sides could cherry-pick different verses to support their argument concerning a specific Christian doctrine.

Eventually I lost my faith as I concluded that the bible was written by different authors at different times who had different purposes and different theologies and that's why there are so many different interpretations on different doctrines. This went entirely against what I grew up believing---THE BIBLE IS THE INERRANT AND INFALLIBLE WORD OF GOD!

What really affected my faith is when I started hearing different Christian/Atheist debates through podcasting and most of the time I found myself agreeing with the Atheist. A good recommendation is "God Debate" through I-tunes podcasts. In addition, I would download various Christian Q and A podcasts and discover that different Christians had different answers to the same questions that were asked.

I wanted to be the Christian dad and husband that could answer any biblical question my son approached me with. I immersed myself in Christian apologetics. It was difficult for me to accept that there is not just ONE Christian argument that represents practically any Christian doctrine presented in the bible. I finally lost my faith when I found out that the doctrine of salvation isn't even clear in the bible.

I left my former Church because I disagreed with the pastor's gospel. I remained a Christian for 6 months after my decision to leave my Church and ran a "home Church" with my family thinking we had the correct gospel. And then after plowing through the many Christian apologetic arguments that went against my view on various Christian doctrines, I couldn't remain arrogant enough to think that I (or any other Christian) had the truth since the bible is written so ambiguously.

I used to convince my family that my view on all the different Christian doctrines was the correct view and that all the other Christians who disagree with me twisted "scripture". But I was too intellectually honest to remain this arrogant.

I have come a long way in the last year because now it makes complete sense that the entire idea of different Christians twisting scripture is relative. One Christian apologist thinks another Christian apologist twists scripture. Both actually have legitimate arguments since there is a lot of support for both arguments concerning any various doctrine. One apologist thinks another apologist is twisting scripture and so on. The fact is, it's impossible NOT to twist scripture since most every doctrine presented in the bible is ambiguous.

CONCLUSION: THIS IS PRECISELY WHY MOST ATHEIST'S REJECT THE BIBLE AS AUTHORITATIVE!!!

A very honest and open story. You sound at peace with yourself so, for what it is worth, I am happy for you.

As always,

OldChurchGuy

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Be kind, for everyone you meet is fighting a great battle - Philo of Alexandria

Whether one believes in a religion or not, and whether one believes in rebirth or not, there isn't anyone who doesn't appreciate kindness and compassion - Dalai Lama

Yes, you heard that right folks. I'm talking to you non-believers out there. When you encourage Christians to begin studying Christian Apologetics (such as sites like CARM.org) it is often the quickest way for a Christian to lose their faith and embrace reason. Why? Because these apologetics sites encourage the use of reason and logic (only they don't use them fully). So when an ignorant Christian begins applying logic and critical thinking (thinking he/she is going to 'prove' Christianity) the reverse often happens! This fact is overwhelmingly attested to by literally hundreds of ex-Christians and ex-believers etc. Once Christians realize that sound reasoning must be applied and that irrational/fallacious arguments must not be used, the light of reason begins to shine (even if at first they do not outwardly admit it). I, for one, am a living example of this fact and I have many ex-Christian friends who attest to it as well. The study of Christian apologetics is the fastest way out of "faith".

For you Christians reading this, go study the bible more! Study CARM.org. reasonablefaith.org, str.org, or apologeticspress.com. Also study the laws of logic, logical fallacies, and sound critical thinking! Educate yourself, b/c this is the fastest way to start doubting your faith. If you'd like to discuss any of the issues raised on one of those sites let's do it here!

Median, I actually did began attending apologetics conferences and reading apologetics materials because of WWGHA and the Forum. Some of my good friends these days are apologists at the local level and I've met a few of the more prominent ones as well. Far from losing my faith, I did embrace reason along with my faith, so my faith is even stronger than when I first began playing in the WWGHA Forum sandbox.

I even enrolled in seminary part-time because of WWGHA Forum and am still working towards my M.Div.

I tended to stay away from WWGHA after I began learning apologetics because when I look at the "arguments" in the forum, most of the time there was very little in the way of support for most assertions (both theists and atheists) and more of a "let's bait and bash" the unlearned Christians. It's not any fun trying to have an adult conversation with people who resort to insults instead of dialogue. There were a few, but not many, atheists who actually would have decent discussion on the forum, but they weren't always on the Forum.

So, my thanks to WWGHA and the Forum for helping me along my faith journey.

I can't see how an apologetics site can be helpful to anyone, since it just pretends to solve errors in the Bible, rather than critique the concepts, or show any evidence.

That's the point of apologetics, really. Defending the problematic parts of the faith against the critique of those who think about these things - like Epicurius for example - requires some serious defending and that's what apolgetics is all about.

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No testimony is sufficient to establish a miracle, unless the testimony be of such that its falshood would be more miraculous than the facts it endeavours to establish. (David Hume)

I can't see how an apologetics site can be helpful to anyone, since it just pretends to solve errors in the Bible, rather than critique the concepts, or show any evidence.

That's the point of apologetics, really. Defending the problematic parts of the faith against the critique of those who think about these things - like Epicurius for example - requires some serious defending and that's what apolgetics is all about.

Every so-called "problem" with Christianity has been solved.Granted, there are plenty of people out there who have a blind hatred of Christianity, so they are unable to say that the problems have been solved.

That is dishonesty, not logical. If they read the apologetic sites with an open mind instead of blind hatred, they would clearly see it.

I didn't viewed these links yet , but I think that they can help me to communicate with Christians.Because I think that use arguments of yours opponents might permit to speak easier with them.

Also the title of this thread is "Christian Apologetics is the Non-Believers Best Friend" I think that we can say the same thing about "Jews , Muslims , Hindus , Buddhists , Raelians apologetics etc..."".

If I am understanding you correctly, without evil we would not know what good is. Correct? Missing the point? Hopeless?

Ever curious,

OldChurchGuy

That is correct. If everything is good, then nothing is good. It becomes a meaningless word.

That's part of the reason why we are against gay marriage. If marriage can mean anything, then it means nothing.

Marriage is between man and woman. Period. Not man and man, woman and woman, man and computer, woman and chair, man and dog, woman and horse, etc etc etc.

But that's a different discussion for another time. Just brought it up to illustrate the point of how if something can mean anything, then it ultimately means nothing.

Forgive me if I am misunderstanding the logic as I ponder the response. It seems one could argue that God did Adam and Eve a favor by allowing the serpent to be in the Garden of Eden. Had the serpent not been there Eve might never have succumbed to the temptation and eaten from the tree of Knowledge. Had she not ever eaten the fruit she and Adam would never have known what suffering was making them incomplete humans. Am I understanding things correctly? If not, would you mind clarifying things for me?

Sincerely,

OldChurchGuy

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Be kind, for everyone you meet is fighting a great battle - Philo of Alexandria

Whether one believes in a religion or not, and whether one believes in rebirth or not, there isn't anyone who doesn't appreciate kindness and compassion - Dalai Lama

If I am understanding you correctly, without evil we would not know what good is. Correct? Missing the point? Hopeless?

Ever curious,

OldChurchGuy

That is correct. If everything is good, then nothing is good. It becomes a meaningless word.

That's part of the reason why we are against gay marriage. If marriage can mean anything, then it means nothing.

Marriage is between man and woman. Period. Not man and man, woman and woman, man and computer, woman and chair, man and dog, woman and horse, etc etc etc.

But that's a different discussion for another time. Just brought it up to illustrate the point of how if something can mean anything, then it ultimately means nothing.

Forgive me if I am misunderstanding the logic as I ponder the response. It seems one could argue that God did Adam and Eve a favor by allowing the serpent to be in the Garden of Eden. Had the serpent not been there Eve might never have succumbed to the temptation and eaten from the tree of Knowledge. Had she not ever eaten the fruit she and Adam would never have known what suffering was making them incomplete humans. Am I understanding things correctly? If not, would you mind clarifying things for me?

Sincerely,

OldChurchGuy

You sound like an atheist in disguise. If Adam and Eve did not sin, then the serpent would still be in the garden tempting people to this very day. That is how we would know the evil. Someone eventually would have caved and listened to the serpent.

Every single day, we all metaphorically make the choice of eating the apple by choosing to sin. Every sin we commit is like listening to the serpent.

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Matthew 10:22 "and you will be hated by all for my name’s sake. But the one who endures to the end will be saved." - Jesus (said 2,000 years ago and still true today.)

If I am understanding you correctly, without evil we would not know what good is. Correct? Missing the point? Hopeless?

Ever curious,

OldChurchGuy

That is correct. If everything is good, then nothing is good. It becomes a meaningless word.

That's part of the reason why we are against gay marriage. If marriage can mean anything, then it means nothing.

Marriage is between man and woman. Period. Not man and man, woman and woman, man and computer, woman and chair, man and dog, woman and horse, etc etc etc.

But that's a different discussion for another time. Just brought it up to illustrate the point of how if something can mean anything, then it ultimately means nothing.

Forgive me if I am misunderstanding the logic as I ponder the response. It seems one could argue that God did Adam and Eve a favor by allowing the serpent to be in the Garden of Eden. Had the serpent not been there Eve might never have succumbed to the temptation and eaten from the tree of Knowledge. Had she not ever eaten the fruit she and Adam would never have known what suffering was making them incomplete humans. Am I understanding things correctly? If not, would you mind clarifying things for me?

Sincerely,

OldChurchGuy

You sound like an atheist in disguise. If Adam and Eve did not sin, then the serpent would still be in the garden tempting people to this very day. That is how we would know the evil. Someone eventually would have caved and listened to the serpent.

Every single day, we all metaphorically make the choice of eating the apple by choosing to sin. Every sin we commit is like listening to the serpent.

Not so much an atheist in disguise as a Christian theist with questions. With all due respect, is my understanding correct? I am not sure the above response answers that question.

Enjoying the exchange,

OldChurchGuy

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Be kind, for everyone you meet is fighting a great battle - Philo of Alexandria

Whether one believes in a religion or not, and whether one believes in rebirth or not, there isn't anyone who doesn't appreciate kindness and compassion - Dalai Lama

Median, I actually did began attending apologetics conferences and reading apologetics materials because of WWGHA and the Forum. Some of my good friends these days are apologists at the local level and I've met a few of the more prominent ones as well. Far from losing my faith, I did embrace reason along with my faith, so my faith is even stronger than when I first began playing in the WWGHA Forum sandbox.

I even enrolled in seminary part-time because of WWGHA Forum and am still working towards my M.Div.

I did the same things when I was an apologist for over 15 years. But you aren't embracing reason. You are spinning, rationalizing, and practicing confirmation bias (aka - you have a pre-commitment to your theology). It's an investment which you can't afford to lose and that is the opposite of embracing reason and intellectual integrity. It is closed-mindedness. It is starting with your conclusion and trying to work backwards. In spite of it, I think it's great you're doing it. Keep going with 'embracing reason' b/c when you actually do decide to (and if you are actually honest and care whether or not your beliefs are true) things will change.

I tended to stay away from WWGHA after I began learning apologetics because when I look at the "arguments" in the forum, most of the time there was very little in the way of support for most assertions (both theists and atheists) and more of a "let's bait and bash" the unlearned Christians. It's not any fun trying to have an adult conversation with people who resort to insults instead of dialogue. There were a few, but not many, atheists who actually would have decent discussion on the forum, but they weren't always on the Forum.

So, my thanks to WWGHA and the Forum for helping me along my faith journey.

Faith is not a pathway to truth. It is gullibility dressed up. Anyone can "just have faith" in anything. See how you have started with your conclusion?

Let's start from the beginning. Perhaps you can tell everyone here your testimony. As truly and as honestly as you possibly can (b/c according to you God is watching), please describe why you decided to become a Christian. What happened? What were the actual things that you think happened to you that made you believe this stuff is true?

Every so-called "problem" with Christianity has been solved.Granted, there are plenty of people out there who have a blind hatred of Christianity, so they are unable to say that the problems have been solved.

That is dishonesty, not logical. If they read the apologetic sites with an open mind instead of blind hatred, they would clearly see it.

Even I personally solved a lot of these problems just by thinking.

Muslims say these same things about their theology. FAIL. Your pre-commitment to it (just like the Muslims pre-commitment to their theology) is what is stopping you from practicing consistent rational and critical thinking. Confirmation bias is a road that leads away from truth.

That is correct. If everything is good, then nothing is good. It becomes a meaningless word.

That's part of the reason why we are against gay marriage. If marriage can mean anything, then it means nothing.

Marriage is between man and woman. Period. Not man and man, woman and woman, man and computer, woman and chair, man and dog, woman and horse, etc etc etc.

But that's a different discussion for another time. Just brought it up to illustrate the point of how if something can mean anything, then it ultimately means nothing.

So then when this alleged God thing said that he made everything (before sin) and that he "saw that it was good", you must admit it was meaningless, right? I can hear the dishonesty coming.

Btw, marriage FOR YOU is about those things (according to YOUR assumed theology). Marriage according to Muslims, with their assumed superstitions like yours, is something different. See where pretending to know things you don't know gets you? Superstition is a conversation stopper. "Well, I just believe this and nothing you can say will change that." [MIND=CLOSED - HONEST DISCOURSE ENDED]

However, I do think many here would argue that you cannot do the first two conjointly (aka - apply critical thinking about theism and still be a theist). This is of course a small clarification but perhaps a significant one.

Just as there can be niether love nor hate. When you just meet someone, you neither want to give up everything for thier own happiness, nor do you want to completely destroy thier life. As you may be treating them somewhere between respect[1] and avoidaince[2].

Apathy, indifference, neutrality are all words that can be used for things that are neither evil nor good.

However, I do think many here would argue that you cannot do the first two conjointly (aka - apply critical thinking about theism and still be a theist). This is of course a small clarification but perhaps a significant one.

Perhaps it is significant.

I confess I have taken critical thinking up to the point of rejecting God's existence. Yet, I am not willing to stay in that frame of mind as I feel "empty". It is a subjective experience I realize and, having tried it 5 separate times so far with the same results each time, I am happy being a theist. If that means my critical thinking skills will always be below the level of members of this web site, so be it.

Sincerely,

OldChurchGuy

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Be kind, for everyone you meet is fighting a great battle - Philo of Alexandria

Whether one believes in a religion or not, and whether one believes in rebirth or not, there isn't anyone who doesn't appreciate kindness and compassion - Dalai Lama