1 <Day 14 Wednesday, 2nd February 2000. 2(10.30 a.m.) 3MR JUSTICE GRAY: Yes? 4MR IRVING: My Lord, may it please the court. Mr Rampton 5wishes to put the witness van Pelt back in the witness box 6(and I have no objections) to take further submissions in 7connection with the challenged document. 8MR JUSTICE GRAY: Right. 9MR RAMPTON: My Lord ---- 10MR JUSTICE GRAY: The incineration capacity? 11MR RAMPTON: Yes, he has done his homework and I am just going 12to let him tell your Lordship ---- 13MR JUSTICE GRAY: Whilst we remember what the point is, it is a 14good idea. 15MR RAMPTON: Can I, first of all, pass up to your Lordship, as 16requested, he has given your Lordship a nomenclature guide 17for Auschwitz and also he has done a hand drawn sketch 18plan of the whole site. I suggest your Lordship puts that 19in the front of the Auschwitz file, probably the second 20Auschwitz file. 21MR JUSTICE GRAY: K2? 22MR RAMPTON: Yes, K2. The documents which he will produce in a 23moment will go in tab 4 of K2, I suggest. 24MR JUSTICE GRAY: You have had these documents, Mr Irving, have 25you? 26MR IRVING: Yes, my Lord, I have just received them.

. P-2

1MR RAMPTON: Yes. 2MR JUSTICE GRAY: I see, this is what I asked for. 3MR RAMPTON: It is, my Lord. 4MR JUSTICE GRAY: Thank you very much. I had not realized what 5it was. 6< PROFESSOR VAN PELT, recalled. 7 < Further re-examined by MR RAMPTON, QC. 8MR JUSTICE GRAY: Professor, thank you very much for doing 9that. Yes, Mr Rampton? 10MR RAMPTON: Professor van Pelt, just one question. Have you 11taken up his Lordship's request or invitation to study 12this document, which is the one we had which is the 13document of 28th June 1943, which relates to incineration 14capacity, to study the question whether or not it is 15authentic ---- 16A.
[Professor Robert Jan van Pelt]
Yes, I have. 17Q.
[Mr Rampton]
Its having been challenged. Will you then please tell his 18Lordship what conclusions you have reached by reference to 19this document and any others in this little clip? Can you 20give that to the judge? 21A.
[Professor Robert Jan van Pelt]
I have last night with what was still available to me, 22because I only carry a small bundle of documents I carried 23with me to London and even some already had been packed 24I did not want to open the box, but whatever I had, I was 25going to look at a couple of the challenges which had been 26made yesterday by Mr Irving.

. P-3

1 Before I go into that, I would like to present, 2first of all, my copy, my marked copy, which is No. 1 of 3the document which comes from Moscow. There are some 4calculations on the back, on the side, which are 5irrelevant. I have indicated on this, this is page No. 1, 6on what were the particular issues Mr Irving found 7important which is the way the date was typed in as 28th 8June 1943 without a location, without Auschwitz, 9Achtundzwanzigte Juni Neunhundertdreiundvierzig. 10 The second thing which was challenged yesterday 11was the code which indicates the Brieftage Buchnumber 12which is 31550, and then Jahrling, or Jahrling, and then 13the secretary. 14 The third one was the title of SS Brigadefuhrer 15Generalmayor der Waffen SS Kammler. 16 On the last point, I did not have find any 17document where the same mistake had happened. So I cannot 18explain that or I cannot give any second document, but 19then I only had one other document with me which was the 20Vergasungskeller letter of 29th June 1943 where Kammler 21has got on the right and the correct title. 22 The first document I would like to present which 23is a new document is No. 2, which is the copy which is in 24the Domburg archive in the DDR -- the former DDR now -- 25and which was made available to the Auswenzin archive. 26This was the document, the copy which actually has been

. P-4

1published in the 50s, and I have here the original. 2I have given you a copy of my copy, but I have here the 3original copy from the Auschwitz archive with the original 4stamp on it, so I do not know. 5MR RAMPTON: I do believe his Lordship ought to see that partly 6because our copy ---- 7MR JUSTICE GRAY: It is not a very good copy. 8MR RAMPTON: It is not a very good copy. There are some colour 9on that, original colour on that. 10A.
[Professor Robert Jan van Pelt]
This copy is not much better, but at least it shows the 11original stamp of the archive. 12MR IRVING: Just so we can be plain, this one went, in other 13words, to East Germany and Auschwitz, not the other way 14round? 15A.
[Professor Robert Jan van Pelt]
Yes, probably. 16Q.
[Mr Rampton]
Where it was stamped? 17MR JUSTICE GRAY: Just to make sure I am following, the one 18that we have previously been looking at, I thought you 19said came originally from the Moscow archives? 20A.
[Professor Robert Jan van Pelt]
That is the Moscow copy, yes. 21Q.
[Mr Justice Gray]
This is DDR? 22A.
[Professor Robert Jan van Pelt]
Domburg, yes, the Domburg archive, which has been 23available in Poland since at least -- this was published 24in the 50s and this is also the document which went to 25Vienna, this particular copy. A copy of that was made 26available to Vienna.

. P-5

1 Now, what is important in this second copy, and 2it is not a very clear copy, but I think the essential 3information is the same. I mean, the information is the 4same but the formatting is different. We see when we look 5at this particular copy, we see at the top it says 6"Abschrift" which means this is a typed copy. There was 7no photocopy machine in it. So while the original, the 8Moscow copy No. 1 is a carbon copy of the original, the 9second one is actually a newly typed copy, and with all 10these newly typed copies there would always have been a 11note at the bottom. It should be signed. It says: "Fur 12Die Richtigkeit der Abschrift which means for the correct 13---- 14Q.
[Mr Justice Gray]
Accuracy? 15A.
[Professor Robert Jan van Pelt]
--- the correctness of this copy and then there is an 16initial there. It is very difficult even in my copy to 17see who actually signed this. 18 The reason that I think this is quite important 19is that this is a different copy of the Moscow one which 20is in a different archive. So we have now two different 21objects, both talking about an incineration capacity of 224,756 persons in the camp. If, indeed, the Moscow -- 23I mean, I think it is very, very unlikely that somebody 24who would have falsified this document, made it up 25afterwards, would have created both a carbon copy of one 26and then have made a new kind of Abschrift of that same

. P-6

1document, and then placed it into two different archives. 2Q.
[Mr Justice Gray]
Well, on the contrary, I thought that might have been what 3a determined forger might have done. 4A.
[Professor Robert Jan van Pelt]
So that he actually make two different versions of the 5same copy? 6Q.
[Mr Justice Gray]
I understand your point. 7A.
[Professor Robert Jan van Pelt]
I disagree with your Lordship on that, but your opinion in 8the end is more important than mine on this, I think. 9Q.
[Mr Justice Gray]
Your are rather better informed than me. 10A.
[Professor Robert Jan van Pelt]
This very much takes the format of a typed copy as you 11find in the Auschwitz archive. So I think that in this 12case there is a convergence of two different objects, 13showing in two different archives, that, indeed, we have 14here, you know, as far as I say with absolute certainty in 15the original document. But there were other challenges 16made and, in order to deal with the other challenges, 17I would like to go to a very short review of the way 18documents in the Auschwitz archive, both letters and also 19copies, are dated, and the way the code which shows which 20file it has to go in is done. 21 So when I go to No. 3, which is a letter from 22Bischoff, the chief architect to the chief doctor in 23Auschwitz, of 30th June 1944, about the building of small 24morgues in Birkenhau, they were built in the existing 25barracks -- every camp in Birkenhau would get one morgue 26-- we see basically that the heading says Auschwitz, 30th

. P-7

1June, "den 30.Juni 1944". It would be the normal accepted 2way of dating a letter, and then we see the brief type of 3book number. We see there two numbers and then we see 4"Jo" which is for Jotam who was at that moment the chief 5architect, and "Go" without dots, without periods. 6 If we go to No. 4, this is a record of a 7meeting. We see that the date is again Auschwitz, 30th 8January 1943, but we see that the secretary who typed this 9letter in this case has a period behind the initial. 10 If we go to No. 5, which is a letter to Topf u. 11Sohne, a carbon copy of a letter to Topf u. Sohne, which 12was done on letter head, we see that there is no place. 13It says simply 28th February 1943. In this case there are 14no periods behind the initials of both Jahrling and the 15secretary. 16Q.
[Mr Justice Gray]
When you say "no place" do you mean no "den" ---- 17A.
[Professor Robert Jan van Pelt]
No period. It does not say Auschwitz den 28th February. 18Mr Irving yesterday challenged the authenticity of the 19Moscow document because there was no place. So this one 20does not have a place given. 21 Then we have No. 6 which is one of these typed 22copies, Abschrift, which does not have a place which 23probably would be, you know, probably would also not have 24been in the original. But what we see here is that the 25secretary has again a period behind her name, but the 26Jahrling thing, we see in this case Jahrling is typed JA

. P-8

1umlaut H, while in other ones he is only typed as JAH, 2umlaut, which means now they have added an H. So there 3seemed to be at least also the way the name has been 4shortened, there seems to be no kind of agreement on it. 5 Then we go to No. 8 because No. 7 is the ---- 6Q.
[Mr Justice Gray]
Second page? 7A.
[Professor Robert Jan van Pelt]
--- the second page of that letter. We see that again the 8secretary has a period and then Dr E has a period. He is 9one of the doctors in the camp. No. 9 we see again, no 10place. This is a letter to Hoess from Bischoff and one 11would have expected this to be probably correct, following 12the correct format. We see that there is no place 13indicated. It says 12th February 1943. Again, the 14secretary has a period but not the Sturmbannfuhrer Pollok, 15who dictated the letter. But, when we go to No. 10 and 16No. 11 ---- 17Q.
[Mr Justice Gray]
There is a point on 6. I just wonder whether it is a good 18point or a bad point? Tell me. The tagebuch number is in 19typescript, not manuscript. 20A.
[Professor Robert Jan van Pelt]
Sometimes it is typescript, sometimes manuscript. 21Q.
[Mr Justice Gray]
That was another point Mr Irving made, I think. 22A.
[Professor Robert Jan van Pelt]
Yes, I am sorry, I had forgotten that. We see again that 23sometimes it is handwritten and sometimes it is typed. 24Q.
[Mr Justice Gray]
Yes. Sorry, that was taking you back. 25A.
[Professor Robert Jan van Pelt]
Yes. Now we come to No. 10 and there we see that in fact 26both the person who dictated the letter and the person who

. P-9

1typed the letter in this case have a period behind their 2initials, and in fact behind the person who typed it there 3is even a dash. No. 11, the letter of 19th July 1944, we 4see that this is a letter dictated by Steilv.Bauleiter 5Teichmann. We see there is a period behind the shortened 6form of his name and a period behind the letter indicating 7the secretary. 8 So I think that the only conclusion one can draw 9out of this is that there was no standard procedure in the 10Zentralbauleitung. 11 I have added two other documents and this has to 12do really with a challenge Mr Irving gave in his letter to 13me which was posted on the web. I do not know if I can 14address that, but it is an alternative way of dating a 15letter, which says "am" instead of "den". So sometimes it 16says "Auschwitz den" and then the date comes, but 17sometimes it also says "Auschwitz am" 14th May 1943. 18MR JUSTICE GRAY: Mr Irving, I do not think that was 19Mr Irving's, if he will forgive me, best point. They are 20both used, are they not? 21MR IRVING: I accept his point on that. 22MR JUSTICE GRAY: I think you did. 23A.
[Professor Robert Jan van Pelt]
Then there was one other thing which came up yesterday and 24I do not know if I am allowed to give testimony on that, 25which was the number of 2.5 million and 1.1 million which 26were given by Hoess.

. P-10

1MR IRVING: Yes. 2A.
[Professor Robert Jan van Pelt]
I have re-read that passage. 3MR JUSTICE GRAY: You do not object to this? You introduced it 4Mr Irving, so I think it is right. 5A.
[Professor Robert Jan van Pelt]
I would like to go back to the point in my report which is 6at page 306 where the actual quotation is. I have 7repeated it in a few other places but I think 306 is a 8good point to do that. 9MR JUSTICE GRAY: Yes. 10A.
[Professor Robert Jan van Pelt]
It starts in the second paragraph: "On the basis of the 11figure of 2.5 million", and I do not know if you want me 12to read it? 13Q.
[Mr Justice Gray]
Shall I just cast my eye down it? (Pause for reading) 14Yes, I have looked at quickly. I have read it before. 15A.
[Professor Robert Jan van Pelt]
OK. So the point is that what Hoess says -- I will 16summarize it -- is that there is this figure of two and a 17half million which is mentioned by Eichmann. This is the 18only figure we have because Eichmann mentions it. But 19then he says that I have only kept to this figure because 20Eichmann has given it, but I myself think it is too high. 21Then he makes his own calculation on the basis of 22transports coming into Auschwitz. So he actually 23challenges that figure. After he has first mentioned it 24he challenges this figure and he comes then to a total 25number of deportations of 1,125,000 Jews going to 26Auschwitz at the bottom of that paragraph.

. P-11

1 So that I think will in some way resolve the 2confusion about these two numbers. 3MR JUSTICE GRAY: Thank you. That is helpful. 4MR RAMPTON: My Lord, there are a couple of other points -- 5I have seen these documents for the first time myself -- 6which I just draw attention to, perhaps through the 7witness. Can we go back to page 10, Professor van Pelt? 8I do not know that you did draw attention to this, it 9really is obvious. There is underneath the Kommandantur 10KL there is an AZ and a colon. 11A.
[Professor Robert Jan van Pelt]
Yes. 12Q.
[Mr Rampton]
And then a number. Do you see that that number is 13somewhat typed? It may have been altered in hand, I 14cannot see. 15A.
[Professor Robert Jan van Pelt]
Yes. 16Q.
[Mr Rampton]
You notice also that the reference is underlined? 17A.
[Professor Robert Jan van Pelt]
Yes. 18Q.
[Mr Rampton]
If you turn over the page,, this one is coming from 19Birkenhau apparently and, unlike the previous one, the 20reference is handwritten and there is no underline. 21MR JUSTICE GRAY: What is the significance of the underlining, 22do you suggest? 23MR RAMPTON: I am not suggesting any significance at all. All 24I am suggesting is that this is a medley. 25MR JUSTICE GRAY: Another variation? 26MR RAMPTON: It depends who is typing it, it depends how fussy

. P-12

1the boss is, all that kind of thing. There is nothing to 2be told from these documents except that, like all 3offices, they vary in their practices. Look, will you 4please, Professor, at page 12, again at the reference, 5there is no underline. We see that it is apparently typed 6by a secretary called Lm, whatever gender that may have 7been. If you turn over to the last page, again we find 8the reference both typed and underlined. And we find that 9Lm is typing for somebody else called Eg. Do you see 10that? 11A.
[Professor Robert Jan van Pelt]
Yes. 12Q.
[Mr Rampton]
You do not happen to know who Eg was, do you? 13A.
[Professor Robert Jan van Pelt]
Egelich. 14Q.
[Mr Rampton]
It does not particularly arise out of this, I think, or 15indirectly -- do you happen to know how many secretaries 16there were at any one time? 17A.
[Professor Robert Jan van Pelt]
That changed. There are documents which have actually 18been signed by people who also had other functions. 19Normally I think there were one or two German secretaries 20and there were a number of Polish secretaries also. For 21example, P is a Polish worker named Pluskurer. It seems 22to be that there was no regular typing pool in the 23Zentralbauleitung. Also the Zentralbauleitung, if you 24look at the personnel lists, changes very rapidly, with 25people moving in and people moving out. 26Q.
[Mr Rampton]
Thank you.

. P-13

1MR JUSTICE GRAY: Mr Irving, if the authenticity of the 2incineration capacity is still in issue, you might want to 3cross-examine further? I do not know. 4MR IRVING: I think I am entitled on the points he has made, my 5Lord. 6MR JUSTICE GRAY: You are certainly entitled to, yes. 7MR IRVING: I will be as brief as I possibly can. 8MR JUSTICE GRAY: Do not hurry 9 < Further cross-examined by Mr Irving 10MR IRVING: Firstly, I will abandon relying on the full stops. 11That will probably ease your Lordship's task in assessing 12the matter, but the other matters, I am afraid, are just 13reinforced by what I have seen here. 14 First of all, reverting to what you said about 15the witness Hoess, the Kommandant of Auschwitz, have you 16seen a handwritten confession by Hoess made in British 17captivity at the request of Colonel Draper, the British 18public prosecutor? 19A.
[Professor Robert Jan van Pelt]
No, I have not seen that. 20Q.
[Mr Irving]
It was one of the very first statements he made, in which 21he admitted -- it is just five or six lines long -- 22having killed 2.8 million people in Auschwitz. 23A.
[Professor Robert Jan van Pelt]
No, I have not seen that one. 24MR JUSTICE GRAY: Killing by gas? 25MR IRVING: Just killing, my Lord. He does not actually say. 26I rely on that purely to indicate the vacillating nature

. P-14

1of the figures that the witness Hoess gave. 2 Reverting now to these documents that you 3very kindly produce for the court, I will take up first of 4all the point that his Lordship very astutely made about 5page 6, where you pointed out that the letter book number 6was typed. Witness, what does the first word on that page 7mean, "Abschrift"? 8A.
[Professor Robert Jan van Pelt]
That means it is a copy. 9Q.
[Mr Irving]
In other words, it has been copied from the original? 10A.
[Professor Robert Jan van Pelt]
Yes. 11Q.
[Mr Irving]
Would there have been any reason why somebody copying an 12original document would have then left a space there and 13handwritten in the letter book number, which was 14presumably handwritten in on the original? He would have 15typed a copy of the whole document, would he not? 16A.
[Professor Robert Jan van Pelt]
I presume so, yes. 17Q.
[Mr Irving]
So it would be wrong to draw any significance from the 18fact that that one is typed. Stepping through the 19documents, I would just ask in general, have you seen, in 20all the documents that you have worked on in the Auschwitz 21archives, any other document in which the year 43 or 44 is 22missing from the letter register line? 23A.
[Professor Robert Jan van Pelt]
Are we referring back to the original Moscow document? 24Q.
[Mr Irving]
Any document at all. Have you seen any document at all? 25I am not referring to the date of the document. I am 26referring to the letter register line.

. P-15

1A.
[Professor Robert Jan van Pelt]
The 31550 and no year. 2Q.
[Mr Irving]
That is correct, which has no year. Have you seen any 3document at all which omits the year? 4A.
[Professor Robert Jan van Pelt]
I do not remember. 5Q.
[Mr Irving]
Very well. Have you seen any document at all which has a 6secretary with the initials Ne? 7A.
[Professor Robert Jan van Pelt]
As I said, I do not remember. I could reconstruct who the 8secretary was, but that is at the moment not available to 9me. The point I thought I made was that many different 10people are typing these letters. We have seen, I think, 11not one time the same person typing any of these letters 12in this very small collection. 13Q.
[Mr Irving]
Is it correct that there are about 50,000 such letters now 14extant, now in the archives, in Moscow and in Auschwitz? 15A.
[Professor Robert Jan van Pelt]
Something like that, yes. 16Q.
[Mr Irving]
Yes. Would it surprise you that other researchers 17investigating specifically this document have looked for 18any other letter at all in all the thousands of letters 19available signed by a secretary Ne, or with the 20secretary's initials Ne on them, and there is no such 21letter? 22A.
[Professor Robert Jan van Pelt]
This is a big problem, of course, how to make a proof, how 23to make a negative proof. I can imagine that people have 24been looking for this. What I can say is that I have not 25investigated the secretary who wrote this letter. The 26only thing I can say is that there seems to have been no

. P-16

1consistent policy. I must also remark that, if I were to 2be a forger ---- 3MR JUSTICE GRAY: This is not really a policy point, is it? 4MR IRVING: It is the only way I can phrase the question. 5A.
[Professor Robert Jan van Pelt]
OK. 6MR JUSTICE GRAY: It is not a policy point. It is was there a 7secretary whose name started ne? It is nothing to do with 8policy. 9A.
[Professor Robert Jan van Pelt]
When I am back in Canada I can look that up, but I think 10the important point is, if I were to be forger, I would of 11course not invent a new name. 12MR JUSTICE GRAY: That is a different point. 13A.
[Professor Robert Jan van Pelt]
I would take one of the existing initials. 14MR IRVING: This is clear. So you would not be surprised if we 15found another letter with the secretary's initials Ne on 16it? I am afraid I cannot give evidence in my 17questioning. I can only say would you be surprised to 18hear that there is not one? 19A.
[Professor Robert Jan van Pelt]
If this were to be a forgery, the forger would have been a 20very, very dumb person. 21Q.
[Mr Irving]
In all the letters that you have seen, Professor van Pelt, 22including these ten you provided this morning, have 23you seen any in which the rank of the Brigadier General 24Kammler is wrong? They have left out the words 25"Generalmayor der Waffen SS". My Lord, I will draw your 26attention to the way it should have been.

. P-17

1MR JUSTICE GRAY: I have noticed Kammler is the recipient of 2one of the other documents. 3MR IRVING: It is, on page 13, my Lord. That is the correct 4way it should have been written. 5MR JUSTICE GRAY: You have the answer, that this is the only 6occasion on which the Professor has seen that happen. 7A.
[Professor Robert Jan van Pelt]
Yes. 8Q.
[Mr Justice Gray]
There is one final point, my Lord, which is a fourth 9question, which is possibly new and I would certainly be 10willing to let Mr Rampton come back on this one. The 11serial number of the document 31550, is that in sequence 12with the other documents of those days? 13A.
[Professor Robert Jan van Pelt]
In the file, you mean? 14Q.
[Mr Justice Gray]
Yes. 15A.
[Professor Robert Jan van Pelt]
I do not remember. I looked at the document in the file 16originally in relationship to the contents and not in 17relationship to the serial number. I am happy to go back, 18when I am back in North America, and have the whole file 19printed out, and then this thing could be reconsidered. 20Q.
[Mr Justice Gray]
Again, I have to ask the question this way. Would it 21surprise you to hear that the number is way out of 22sequence by several weeks? 23A.
[Professor Robert Jan van Pelt]
In general, if you look at the files -- I am not 24completely surprised but the thing is, the way the files 25were created, the files quite often have things not in 26sequence, even in the Auschwitz archive. So it is very

. P-18

1difficult sometimes to see. Normally what happens is a 2file is built up, that the earliest documents are at the 3back and then, of course, as new documents come in, the 4documents ultimately get their final order. 5Q.
[Mr Justice Gray]
But you agree that all the other documents, in these ten 6you have provided, the numbers are in serial sequence? 7A.
[Professor Robert Jan van Pelt]
In serial sequence? 8Q.
[Mr Justice Gray]
I have just checked them and they are, in so far as they 9are part of the same series? 10MR JUSTICE GRAY: They are put together for the purposes of 11this clip. 12MR IRVING: I appreciate that, my Lord. 13A.
[Professor Robert Jan van Pelt]
I just picked up some things from a pack I had last 14night. I just was going through what I had in my hand. 15Q.
[Mr Irving]
The very last question is this. Was Jahrling an SS 16Sturmbannfuhrer? 17A.
[Professor Robert Jan van Pelt]
I think Jahrling was actually a Zivilarbeiter. 18Q.
[Mr Irving]
Why is he on the second page of this document signing as 19an SS Sturmbannfuhrer, the one that has been provided? 20A.
[Professor Robert Jan van Pelt]
It seems that the original document was obviously meant to 21be signed by Jahrling, but this is an abschrift and he 22initialled this thing. Whatever the abschrift was made 23of, whatever copy the abschrift was made of, had his 24initials on it and this happens quite often. Since the 25original signed copy went to Kammler, which was signed by 26Bischoff, then quite often there would be a little -- one

. P-19

1of the other people would just ---- 2Q.
[Mr Irving]
Professor van Pelt, I think you have misunderstood my 3question. Would you look at page 2, please? 4A.
[Professor Robert Jan van Pelt]
Yes. I see Jahrling, yes. 5Q.
[Mr Irving]
It appears to have been signed three lines from the bottom 6Gezeichnet Jahrling SS Sturmbannfuhrer. 7A.
[Professor Robert Jan van Pelt]
It says "Zentralbauleitung der Waffen SS und Polizei" on 8the top, which means this is signed by the leader, the 9chief architect which was SS Sturmbannfuhrer Bischoff at 10the time, but the copy which was available to the person 11who wrote the Asbchrift must have had Jahrling's signature 12on it, which is something which happens quite often, that 13you see another signature than Bischoff's in actually the 14copies which are in the archive. 15MR JUSTICE GRAY: Does "gezeichnet" actually mean "signed". 16MR IRVING: Yes. 17A.
[Professor Robert Jan van Pelt]
If means "signed" here, but I presume that this person who 18was writing this Asbchrift had in some way ---- 19MR JUSTICE GRAY: I follow what you are saying. 20MR IRVING: Is it not correct civil service procedure to put 21the letters "iA" if you are signing on behalf of someone? 22A.
[Professor Robert Jan van Pelt]
Yes, bit I do not think we are here in a kind of typical 23Civil Service condition. We have seen that people are all 24over the place in the way they are actually formatting 25these documents. 26MR IRVING: My Lord, I have no further questions.

. P-20

1MR RAMPTON: Well, sorry, I do have some by way of 2re-examination. 3MR JUSTICE GRAY: You may want some re-examination. 4 < Re-examined by MR RAMPTON, QC 5Q.
[Mr Rampton]
Can we take that last point first? Can you take page 1, 6please? In the bottom left-hand corner of the page is a 7column what looks a bit like names? 8MR IRVING: It is a distribution list. 9MR RAMPTON: Thank you, Mr Irving, but I am asking the witness 10questions. "Verteiler", do you see that? 11A.
[Professor Robert Jan van Pelt]
Yes. 12Q.
[Mr Rampton]
And the last name on that might be "Jahrling", might it? 13A.
[Professor Robert Jan van Pelt]
Yes, that is Jahrling. So Jahrling got a copy of this 14letter. 15MR JUSTICE GRAY: That is the point you have made, that is the 16only indication of who signed it available to the person 17who did the Auschwitz. So they put "gezeichnet" by 18Jahrling? 19A.
[Professor Robert Jan van Pelt]
Yes. 20MR RAMPTON: Yes. Do you notice, please on page 4 a signature 21over a Sturmbannfuhrer? 22A.
[Professor Robert Jan van Pelt]
Yes. 23Q.
[Mr Rampton]
Whose signature is that? 24A.
[Professor Robert Jan van Pelt]
That is Bischoff's signature. 25Q.
[Mr Rampton]
What about page 7 over the same word Sturmbannfuhrer? 26A.
[Professor Robert Jan van Pelt]
That is not Bischoff's signature, but it was ----

. P-21

1Q.
[Mr Rampton]
Somebody has written "signed Bischoff"? 2A.
[Professor Robert Jan van Pelt]
Yes, what we see here is we see that there is a little 3note on the lower corner, the lower on page 7, it says Fur 4die Richtigkeit der Asbchrift, which says, this is 5Pollock, I think it is Pollock, SS Untersturmfuhrer, and 6so Pollock now has put the name of Bischoff, signed in his 7own handwriting Bischoff's name, since we are dealing here 8with an Asbchrift. So in some way Pollock has done by 9hand what in some way occurred in page No. 2 which is 10typed. 11Q.
[Mr Rampton]
There is only one other thing I need to ask you about and 12it is this. Mr Irving seems to take the point, if I have 13understood it, that if the reference number is typed 14rather than handwritten, one must expect to find the word 15"Abschrift" on top of the document. Can you look at page 163? Is there "Abschrift" on top of the document? 17A.
[Professor Robert Jan van Pelt]
No, that not Abschrift. 18Q.
[Mr Rampton]
And is the reference number typed or handwritten? 19A.
[Professor Robert Jan van Pelt]
The reference number is typed. 20Q.
[Mr Rampton]
And at page 6 we see Abschrift and a typed reference 21number, but what about page 10? 22A.
[Professor Robert Jan van Pelt]
Page 10, it was typed and it was corrected by hand. 23Q.
[Mr Rampton]
And there is no Abschrift on top of it? 24A.
[Professor Robert Jan van Pelt]
No, there is no Abschrift. 25MR IRVING: It is not actually a letter register number there; 26it is the file number.

. P-22

1A.
[Professor Robert Jan van Pelt]
[German]. 2MR RAMPTON: Well, this is the third or fourth example so 3perhaps the point is made. What about page 13? 4A.
[Professor Robert Jan van Pelt]
Page 13, it is typed. 5Q.
[Mr Rampton]
It is typed and there is no "Abschrift" on top of it? 6A.
[Professor Robert Jan van Pelt]
Yes. 7MR RAMPTON: Yes, thank you. 8MR JUSTICE GRAY: Can I ask you the same question, Professor, 9that I asked you when you gave evidence yesterday which is 10whether the points that have been put to you this morning 11raise something of a doubt in your mind about the 12authenticity of this document? 13A.
[Professor Robert Jan van Pelt]
No, it does not. 14Q.
[Mr Justice Gray]
The point about the year not being included, is there 15anything in that? 16A.
[Professor Robert Jan van Pelt]
I think it is a good observation, but what we see also 17here, you see if we look at this Moscow, this Moscow 18document, what we see that the numbers were actually typed 19in later. It seems to be that there is a -- it is a 20slightly different - also when we look at the persons, it 21seems they may made up first the letter and that 22ultimately they were -- this letter was drafted and the 23numbers were put in after some kind of final 24consultation. It is a very marked difference with the 25second copy with Domburg. It seems to be that the final 26numbering, the number, was brought in later and I can

. P-23

1quite imagine that there was a slip occurred at that 2moment. 3MR IRVING: May I enquire on what basis you say that the 4numbers were typed in later? 5A.
[Professor Robert Jan van Pelt]
It seems that if we look at the way, if we look at, for 6example, No. 340 personen, the 340 seems to be almost done 7slightly sharper than "persona". If we can compare that 8to 1943 on top, I do not know, I mean, but it seems to be 9that it is -- that my sense would be that they were added 10later, that there was a first draft made, and especially 11if we look at the "31550/" in the brieftagebuch number, 12again the slash seems to come very close to the zero, 13almost as if they put it back in the typewriter and put in 14the numbers. 15 Now, it is also possible, of course, that they 16had cleaned their numbers. You know, these typewriters, 17these manual typewriters, they would get very messy at a 18certain moment and especially as in Auschwitz they were 19reusing the same, how do you call it, ribbon constantly 20because there was a great lack of it. They get very 21smudgy at a certain moment, and also the letters get very 22smudgy, so maybe they had cleaned the numbers to be 23absolutely certain that these numbers would be clear. 24I cannot say. But my sense would be, if you look at the 25brieftagebuch number, that it is possible that they were, 26that it was added later, also because it goes left of the

. P-24

1original, how do you call it ---- 2MR IRVING: The margin. 3A.
[Professor Robert Jan van Pelt]
The margin, and in the other things it seems to be in 4generally on the margin. So that also indicates that it 5was generally added later. So, you know, you cannot be 6absolutely sure about it. But, it seems to be that it was 7not regular that the person was typing that heading and at 8that moment was actually putting on all the information. 9So since the information was put in later, maybe it is 10simply the 43 slipped. 11MR JUSTICE GRAY: Yes? 12A.
[Professor Robert Jan van Pelt]
But it is speculation. We cannot be certain about it. 13Q.
[Mr Justice Gray]
Thank you very much. Can I give you back your original? 14I am ashamed to say I have made a slight mark on it, not 15realising. 16A.
[Professor Robert Jan van Pelt]
You can keep it if you want because I have a copy now. 17Q.
[Mr Justice Gray]
But this is the original? 18A.
[Professor Robert Jan van Pelt]
This is the original copy from Auschwitz. That is why it 19is stamped. If you want to keep it, since it has a stamp 20on it? 21Q.
[Mr Justice Gray]
All right. Thank you. Can I say one or more thing? On 22the back of it, of that copy you have, actually has the 23actual file in which it is. It says BW34. It is on the 24back, so that is the actual file in which that document 25can be found. 26MR JUSTICE GRAY: Thank you very much.

. P-25

1< (The witness stood down) 2MR JUSTICE GRAY: Mr Rampton, where shall I put this clip? 3MR RAMPTON: In tab 4 of K2, the second Auschwitz file. 4MR JUSTICE GRAY: Immediately after page 49? 5MR RAMPTON: I would think so. In due course I am going to 6sort mine into chronological order. 7MR JUSTICE GRAY: So further cross-examination of Mr Irving 8now? 9MR RAMPTON: Yes. 10< MR DAVID IRVING, recalled.11 Cross-Examined by MR RAMPTON, QC, continued.12A.
[Mr Irving]
I have two things which I wish to say here from the box, 13my Lord, if I may? 14MR JUSTICE GRAY: Yes. 15A.
[Mr Irving]
One goes to yesterday, the letter, you remember, from the 16man who had been in an Aufraumungs Kommando, do you 17remember, and who had had knowledge of 30,000 records of 1830,000 in Dresden. 19MR JUSTICE GRAY: Dresden, yes? 20A.
[Mr Irving]
Back on Dresden. I just want to draw attention to the 21fact that the letter was dated sometime in 1965, four 22years after the book was written. That is a reference to 23page 538 of the Evans report. 24MR JUSTICE GRAY: Yes, thank you. 25A.
[Mr Irving]
My Lord, I provided to your Lordship a copy of the actual 26order of the day which was missing from the bundle,

. P-26

1and ---- 2Q.
[Mr Justice Gray]
The Tagesbefehl? 3A.
[Mr Irving]
That is right, and I have provided you with an English 4translation of it. 5Q.
[Mr Justice Gray]
Thank you very much. 6A.
[Mr Irving]
And in view of the fact that the Defence, at least in 7their catalogue, relied on a letter that Mr Kimber wrote 8to me, which I complained of as being prejudicial, I 9have put in the clip for your Lordship the reply that 10I sent to him. 11Q.
[Mr Justice Gray]
Just pause a moment. The Tagesbefehl we ought to put 12into... 13A.
[Mr Irving]
It does not really add or subtract anything from the case, 14but your Lordship should really have a copy of the 15document we spent most of yesterday talking about. 16Q.
[Mr Justice Gray]
I quite agree. Mr Rampton, where would it go? 17MR RAMPTON: This ... 18MR JUSTICE GRAY: This is the genuine one? 19A.
[Mr Irving]
No, my Lord. This was the fake one. 20MR RAMPTON: If you look on the second page, my Lord, you will 21see it has the ---- 22A.
[Mr Irving]
I do not know whether there actually ever was a genuine 23one. I telephoned with Mr Bergander in Berlin this 24morning, and he said that the man who gave him the 25so-called genuine one had copies of both. 26MR JUSTICE GRAY: I think page 14A, is that right?

. P-27

1A.
[Mr Irving]
The other only little bundle I have gave your Lordship 2this morning was ---- 3Q.
[Mr Justice Gray]
Just pause a moment, and let us get this into the right 4place. Is that right? It is a question of where it goes 5in the chronological sequence otherwise it gets lost. 6Come on, we are wasting time. 7MR RAMPTON: My Lord, I have not got my Dresden file here so I 8am afraid I cannot help. 9MR JUSTICE GRAY: No, can Miss Rogers find out where it should 10go? 11MR RAMPTON: Can we sort it out? 12A.
[Mr Irving]
The only other thing I gave your Lordship was just five 13photographs of the Goebbels diary so you know what we are 14talking about when we come on to the Goebbels matter. 15That is the boxes and so on that they came in. 16MR JUSTICE GRAY: Thank you very much. 17MR RAMPTON(To the witness): Mr Irving, Hans Almeyer, I think 18you first discovered him in June 1992? 19A.
[Mr Irving]
I think it was June 2nd 1992, yes. 20Q.
[Mr Rampton]
Your diary entry ---- 21A.
[Mr Irving]
June 3rd. 22Q.
[Mr Rampton]
--- is 3rd, so it would be yesterday, would it not? 23A.
[Mr Irving]
Yes. 24Q.
[Mr Rampton]
Your diary entry reads -- you can see it if you like, we 25have it here -- "Later at PRO all day". This is what 26happened on 2nd. "Finished reading file of interrogations

. P-28

1and MS manuscript by one SS officer, Hans Almeyer, a high 2Auschwitz official. Once again, like Gerstein, his 3reports grow more lurid as the months progress. I wonder 4why? Beaten like Hoess or was he finally telling the 5truth? A disturbing two hours anyway." Do you remember 6that entry? 7A.
[Mr Irving]
Very clearly, yes. 8Q.
[Mr Rampton]
Then I think there is a document you should look at. I am 9afraid, my Lord, I have no idea which file it comes from. 10It is a letter written by Mr Irving on 4th June to 11Mr Marcellus? 12A.
[Mr Irving]
"Dear Tom". 13Q.
[Mr Rampton]
The whole clump should go into L1 at tab 5, if it is empty 14which it should be. 15MR JUSTICE GRAY: L1, this is nothing to do with Dresden, is 16it? 17MR RAMPTON: No, this is to do with Auschwitz actually, but it 18has much more to do -- I mean, it is indirectly to do with 19Auschwitz because Almeyer was there for a time. I do not 20remember how long, about nine months, I think, perhaps a 21bit longer. No, it is the way in which Mr Irving handles 22this information that may be of importance. So that is 23why L1 is a what file? 24MR JUSTICE GRAY: Dresden. 25MR RAMPTON: It has "Hungary" in front, so it can have Almeyer 26at the back. So long as they go where Miss Rogers says,

. P-29

1my Lord, then the index will be of use, otherwise it will 2not. 3 (To the witness): Have you got that letter you 4wrote on 4th June 1992 to Mr Marcellus and Mr Weber? 5A.
[Mr Irving]
Yes, I was looking at them last night. 6Q.
[Mr Rampton]
Oh good. That is all right. It is a fax, in fact. 7A.
[Mr Irving]
Yes. 8Q.
[Mr Rampton]
They both would have received the whole text, is that 9right, although the first part is addressed to 10Mr Marcellus and the second part to ---- 11A.
[Mr Irving]
I think they worked in same warehouse, yes. 12Q.
[Mr Rampton]
I am only going to read the part that is addressed to Mark 13Weber or does he calls himself "Weber"? 14A.
[Mr Irving]
"Weber", I think. 15MR JUSTICE GRAY: Who as Marcellus? 16A.
[Mr Irving]
He was the Director of the Institute. 17Q.
[Mr Justice Gray]
So he is IHR as well? 18A.
[Mr Irving]
IHR, yes and Mark Weber was some functionary there. 19MR RAMPTON: You write to Mark Weber: "Working in the Public 20Record Office yesterday, I came across the 200 page 21handwritten memoirs, very similar in sequence to the 22Gurstein report versions of an SS officer, Almeyer, who 23was virtually Hoess's deputy. They have just been opened 24for research. He was held in a most brutal British prison 25camp, the London Cave (the notorious Lieutenant Colonel A 26Scotland)". Then you write: "These manuscripts are going

. P-30

1to be a problem for revisionists and need analysing now in 2advance of our enemies and answering. I attach my 3transcript of a few pages and you will see why. It 4becomes more lurid with each subsequent version. At first 5no gassings, then 50, then 15,000 total. Brute force by 6interrogators perhaps". 7 Now, I have a number of questions about that 8little message, Mr Irving. 9A.
[Mr Irving]
Yes. 10Q.
[Mr Rampton]
Why are the manuscript notes, or whatever they are, 11memoirs of Almeyer going to be a problem for revisionists? 12A.
[Mr Irving]
I think because they refute a number of the tenets of the 13revisionist Bible, if I can put it like that. 14Q.
[Mr Rampton]
What is the revisionist Bible? 15A.
[Mr Irving]
Well, the revisionist credo. 16Q.
[Mr Rampton]
Which is? 17A.
[Mr Irving]
Oh, at its most extreme, it is that not a hair was harmed 18on the head of the Jews which was the most extreme and 19indefensible position. 20Q.
[Mr Rampton]
Does that include Mr Marcellus and Mr Weber? 21A.
[Mr Irving]
Obviously not, otherwise I would not be writing this kind 22of letter to them, but the Almeyer manuscript, as I would 23call them, just like the Adolf Eichmann manuscripts that I 24had found the previous October in Argentina, raised 25serious questions. They helped to do somewhat more than 26dot i's and cross t's.

. P-31

1Q.
[Mr Rampton]
"... and need analysing now in advance of our enemies"? 2A.
[Mr Irving]
Yes. 3Q.
[Mr Rampton]
Who is the "our" referred to there? 4A.
[Mr Irving]
Well, the enemies of myself and Mr Weber and, presumably, 5Tom Marcellus. 6Q.
[Mr Rampton]
Who are those enemies? 7A.
[Mr Irving]
Irresponsible historians who will leap on any document and 8use it to inflate the untenable position at the other end 9of the spectrum. 10Q.
[Mr Rampton]
What you were worried about, Almeyer tells a tale, 11accurate in parts, inaccurate in other parts, according to 12the traditional or the orthodox view of these matters, 13about his time at Auschwitz, does he not? 14A.
[Mr Irving]
It is a very inaccurate tale which is, presumably, one 15reason why -- which is, presumably, one reason why the 16Defence has not relied on him so far. 17Q.
[Mr Rampton]
You will find him in extenso in Professor van Pelt's 18report. You will also find precise observations about 19what is accurate and what is not. 20A.
[Mr Irving]
Well, you remember when we asked the witness van Pelt who 21his important eyewitnesses were, there was no mention of 22Almeyer. 23Q.
[Mr Rampton]
No, there is not because Almeyer is, in certain respects, 24plainly wrong. 25A.
[Mr Irving]
Yes, exactly what I said. 26Q.
[Mr Rampton]
Yes, it may be what you said. What I am wondering about,

. P-32

1Mr Irving, is why you were so frightened of Hans Almeyer's 2handwritten notes? 3A.
[Mr Irving]
I do not think I am frightened about him. I am just 4concerned for several reasons. Let me explain. As an 5independent historian, with no tenure Professorship to 6fall back on and, as I explained in my opening statement 7to this court, no pension to rely on, I have to rely on 8what find in the archives to sustain myself and my young 9family. In order to do that, I rely on finding what might 10be commonly called scoops, and when you have found a 11scoop, it would be very foolish if you put it straight in 12the shop window and say, "Come on and help yourself". 13This was clearly a scoop. 14Q.
[Mr Rampton]
Mr Irving, that is not what you mean by the little phrase 15"our enemies", is it? What you are frightened of is that 16somebody will find it or see it and will say: "Well, here 17is another little piece of information. It does not fit 18in every respect, but the bits which are consistent with 19what we have already got fit neatly into the Auschwitz 20jigsaw". That is what you are afraid of, is it not? 21A.
[Mr Irving]
They do not fit neatly into Auschwitz jigsaw. It is quite 22plain. If he only refers to 15,000 dead or 15,000 gassed, 23then that fitted more into our jigsaw than into the jigsaw 24of our opponents. 25MR RAMPTON: I will not ask you to look at it now, my Lord. 26I give in the reference a very full account of Almeyer,

. P-33

1warts and all ---- 2A.
[Mr Irving]
Well, let me just draw your attention to that letter. 3MR RAMPTON: I am sorry, I am speaking to his Lordship. 4MR JUSTICE GRAY: Let Mr Rampton finish. Then you say what you 5want to say. Mr Rampton, yes, where do we find it? 6MR RAMPTON: May I finish what I am saying to his Lordship? 7A.
[Mr Irving]
His Lordship has just said the same. 8MR RAMPTON: On pages 260 to 266. 9MR JUSTICE GRAY: Of Professor van Pelt? 10MR RAMPTON: Not the whole of it, I am sure it is not the whole 11of it, but a good deal of what he said is set out there. 12At various points in the footnotes, my Lord, Professor van 13Pelt, and probably also in the text, though I do not have 14the whole of it here, Professor van Pelt draws attention 15to passages in Almeyer which cannot be right. 16MR JUSTICE GRAY: But the point on Almeyer was not really so 17much the number of Jewish prisoners who were gassed, but, 18rather, the detailed nature of the description of the gas 19chambers. 20MR RAMPTON: Precisely, my Lord. 21MR JUSTICE GRAY: Is that fair? 22MR RAMPTON: Absolutely right. 23A.
[Mr Irving]
Right. 24Q.
[Mr Rampton]
That is what you and your revisionist friends were afraid 25of, was it not, Mr Irving? 26A.
[Mr Irving]
Let me explain. I saw the Almeyer file on three

. P-34

1occasions, as you now know, because I went to the Public 2Record Office and asked if they would give me a print out 3of all the occasions on which I saw the file. I saw it 4once for afternoon on June 3rd 1992, and I saw it 5subsequently four years later -- I have the actual print 6out here which will tell you the precise days when I saw 7it -- on May 29th 1996, and again probably in connection 8with preparation of this action on 6th September 1997. So 9I have seen it three times. 10 I am not a Holocaust historian. My time in the 11archives is limited. If I am not writing about the 12Holocaust in 1992, I am not going to spend the entire 13afternoon analysing a file of what looks like 200 pages. 14I skimmed through it, looked at the various versions, 15spotted the obvious discrepancies and immediately sent 16this, what you quite rightly described, I suppose, as an 17alarm signal to other people saying, "There is this report 18in the archives which is going to cause problems, and we 19are going to have to face up to it and it is better that 20we are the ones who publish it, rather than the people at 21the other end of the extreme, of either end of the two 22extremes, who will put spins on it which are quite 23unacceptable. 24Q.
[Mr Rampton]
But, you see, Mr Irving, before ever having analysed it, 25thought about it, compared it with the rest of the great 26corpus of evidence about Auschwitz, you are already

. P-35

1suggesting in this letter that Almeyer's account was 2beaten out of him by the British under the charge of the 3notorious Lieutenant Colonel Scotland, are you not? 4A.
[Mr Irving]
I take it you have never heard of Lieutenant Colonel 5Scotland. 6Q.
[Mr Rampton]
Mr Irving, will you answer my question? 7A.
[Mr Irving]
Well, I have. I know who Lieutenant Colonel Scotland is 8and I know all about the Kensington Cage in which the 9prisoners were tortured. 10Q.
[Mr Rampton]
Mr Irving, I dare say you have. I am not the least bit 11interested in Colonel Scotland. Please answer my 12question. Before you have analysed these notes or 13compared them with the corpus of evidence on Auschwitz, 14you have already begun to suggest that they were beaten 15out of it? 16A.
[Mr Irving]
The papers are found in the files of Lieutenant Colonel A 17Scotland which were seized from him by the British 18Government after the war. Almeyer was held finally in the 19London prison cage, which was Colonel Scotland's outfit, 20before he was turned over to the Nuremberg authorities. 21As his questioning proceeded, starting in Norway and then 22ending up in England because he was captured in Norway, 23his accounts became more lurid. The final accounts in his 24file are written in British Army style with all place 25names and proper nouns written in capital letters with all 26that that implies, in handwriting, in pencil.

. P-36

1MR JUSTICE GRAY: But Mr Rampton's question, I think, was 2suggesting this to you -- I am just going to ask it, if I 3may -- that in a way you are putting the cart before the 4horse jumping to the conclusion -- this is the 5question ---- 6A.
[Mr Irving]
Yes. 7Q.
[Mr Justice Gray]
--- that because the Almeyer account was found in what you 8describe as the London Cage, it, therefore, followed that 9the account that he gives is worthless? 10A.
[Mr Irving]
No, my Lord. What I am saying is because it gets 11progressively more lurid, because the numbers increase 12from report to report, and because it ends up written in 13traditional British Army style on British Army notepaper, 14in pencil with all the place names and proper nouns 15written in capital letters, one is entitled to draw 16certain conclusions from the physical appearance of this 17file, particularly when one associates it with the name of 18the notorious Colonel Scotland. 19MR RAMPTON: Have you ever seen a police interview with a 20witness, Mr Irving -- a record, a handwritten record, of a 21police interview with a witness, Mr Irving? 22A.
[Mr Irving]
I think there have been references to them in various 23Courts of Appeal, yes. 24Q.
[Mr Rampton]
No, Mr Irving. Have you ever actually seen the record of 25a police interview? I am talking about the days before 26they were tape recorded and later typed, transcribed.

. P-37

1Have you ever seen a record of an interview in a Police 2Station? 3A.
[Mr Irving]
Yes. 4Q.
[Mr Rampton]
You know perfectly well it is common form that poor old 5officer Bobby laboriously writes out what the witness is 6saying, and then when he comes to a name he always puts it 7in capital letters? 8A.
[Mr Irving]
But is he writing out what the witness is saying or is he 9writing down something and saying to the witness, "No sign 10here, please. This is what you said"? 11Q.
[Mr Rampton]
So it is not just the notorious Colonel Scotland, it is 12the notorious Scotland Yard, is it? 13A.
[Mr Irving]
Well, you dragged them in. I did not mention them. 14Q.
[Mr Rampton]
Come on, Mr Irving, the fact that it is written in pencil 15with the names in capitals tells us nothing. 16A.
[Mr Irving]
On the contrary, it indicates clearly that he is doing 17precisely what he is told to at the dictate of the British 18Army officers who, undoubtedly, had ways of doing their 19job, they had ways of making people talk, and I have no 20criticism whatsoever of that. We won the war and these 21are the methods we used to win the war. But to use these 22same documents that we won the war with to write history 23from is, I think, indicative of the problems that we are 24having in the courtroom today. Because you yourself have 25admitted, your expert witnesses have admitted, that 26Almeyer frequently made wrong statements in his report.

. P-38

1Q.
[Mr Rampton]
Yes, he did. In fact, he gave his first account in 2Norway, did he not? 3A.
[Mr Irving]
Yes. 4Q.
[Mr Rampton]
I am told, and you probably will not know because you have 5never studied it, but in fact I am told that his most 6explicit and detailed account was given in Norway. 7A.
[Mr Irving]
Not with these numbers, as I said in my letters to 8Mr Weber and also Mr Philip on the same day. 9Q.
[Mr Rampton]
His significance is not numbers, is it? His significance 10is procedure at Auschwitz, is it not? 11MR JUSTICE GRAY: Is that right, Mr Irving? 12A.
[Mr Irving]
I am sorry, I was not listening. I was just checking this 13other letter I wrote on that day. I am not sure if it is 14in the file or not. 15MR RAMPTON: If there is one in German, I am going to ask you 16about it. It is Karl Philip. 17A.
[Mr Irving]
Yes. 18Q.
[Mr Rampton]
I will ask you about that in a moment. The significance 19of Almeyer for the record in so far as he has significance 20is not the numbers that he gives, but the description that 21he gives of how they killed the people at Auschwitz, is it 22not? 23A.
[Mr Irving]
Even there, if my memory is correct, he gets it wrong. 24MR JUSTICE GRAY: Well, what is the answer to the question and 25then carry on about whether he gets it right or wrong. 26A.
[Mr Irving]
He describes gassing procedures, this is true, but, of

. P-39

1course ----- 2Q.
[Mr Justice Gray]
But the question, Mr Irving -- do focus on the question -- 3is that the significant thing about Almeyer's account is 4not the number that he gives of the Jewish prisoners who 5were gassed, but the description he gives of the way in 6which they were grassed. That is the question. 7MR RAMPTON: It is the question. 8MR JUSTICE GRAY: Can you say whether you agree or disagree 9with it? 10A.
[Mr Irving]
If you tell me what the description is that he gave? 11MR RAMPTON: Let me tan an example, the middle of page 262 of 12the transcript, as it where, that appears in van Pelt. It 13corresponds very roughly with what SS Untersturmfuhrer 14Broad tells us: 15 "In the time that followed some three to four 16gassing were undertaken in the old crematorium. These 17always occurred in evening hours. In the morgue were two 18or three air vents and medical orderlies wearing gas masks 19should blue cyanide gas into these" ---- 20A.
[Mr Irving]
Now, which crematorium are we talking about? Crematorium 21number ---- 22Q.
[Mr Rampton]
That is crematorium (i) at Auschwitz 1 at the stammlager. 23A.
[Mr Irving]
About which, unfortunately, we have not asked the 24Professor very much in his evidence. 25Q.
[Mr Rampton]
Well, you did not. 26A.
[Mr Irving]
Yes, indeed, but I tried to bring this up and his Lord

. P-40

1said, "We are not interested in whether this building has 2been faked after the war or not". 3Q.
[Mr Rampton]
Mr Irving, do you never answer an overt question? 4MR JUSTICE GRAY: That is a total misrepresentation of what 5I said, but let us move on.. 6A.
[Mr Irving]
Well, I tried to bring up crematorium No. (i) in order to 7get the admission from the witness that it has been built 8in 1948 by the Poles and at this point your Lordship 9intervened, you will remember, and said, "This is of" ---- 10MR JUSTICE GRAY: Well, I am not going to go through that again 11because the transcript is there, but let us get back to 12Almeyer. 13MR RAMPTON: We will just read on, and this is where Almeyer is 14a real killer for you revisionists, is it not, Mr Irving? 15A.
[Mr Irving]
I do not know. I will have to see what it says. 16Q.
[Mr Rampton]
"We were not allowed to come close and only the next day 17the bunker, gas chamber, was opened. The doctor told that 18the people died within half a minute to a minute. In the 19meantime, in Birkenhau, close to the burial sites, two 20empty houses were equipped by the construction office with 21gas chambers. One house had two chambers, the other 22four. These houses were designed as bunkers 1 and 2. 23Each chamber accommodated about 50 to 150 people. 24 "At the end of January or February, the first 25gassings were undertaken. The Commando was called "SK" 26and the camp commander had put it under the direct

. P-41

1authority of Untersturmfuhrer Grabner and was again led 2and brought into action by Hoessler". That is different 3from Hoess. "The area was surrounded by notices and 4marked as a security zone and, moreover, encircled by 5eight guardposts from the Commando. 6 "From that moment onwards the camp doctor sorted 7from the arriving transports immediately the inmates and 8those who were destined to be gassed. They had 9instructions to select for gassing those crippled by 10illness, those over 55 years of age who could not work and 11children up to 11 or 12 years". From a revisionist point 12of view, that is a catastrophic account, is it not? 13A.
[Mr Irving]
But I also draw attention to the frequent footnotes that 14Professor van Pelt has quite rightly written in saying 15this is wrong, that is wrong, the following is wrong, this 16is an incorrect account, the time was longer, the time was 17shorter. If one knows that, what kind of credence can you 18attach to a report like that? 19MR JUSTICE GRAY: In relation to the passage Mr Rampton has 20just read, is that not an accurate account of, I do not 21know, is it crematoria (iv) and (v), or (iii) and (iv)? 22MR RAMPTON: No. In that passage it is bunkers 1 and 2. 23A.
[Mr Irving]
It is talking about the bunkers 1 and 2, which we have not 24talked about and which, as far as I am concerned, actually 25existed. 26MR JUSTICE GRAY: My question really is this. Is there

. P-42

1anything wrong with that as an account, so far as you see 2it? 3A.
[Mr Irving]
I see nothing wrong with that as an account, my Lord, but 4then, of course, as I have to keep reminding the court, 5I am not a Holocaust historian. I have never set myself 6up as a Holocaust historian. I have not written about the 7Holocaust in books or otherwise. All I know is that this 8is a flawed account, if I can use that word. Professor 9van Pelt himself describes it as being inaccurate in very 10many respects, and this is the kind of problems which 11would no doubt have been brought out, had I ever sat down 12and read the whole file and start comparing it with all 13the others. 14MR RAMPTON: Before suggesting that this flawed account, put 15into his mouth by the brutal British interrogators, was 16tortured out of him by Colonel Scotland? 17A.
[Mr Irving]
I am talking about the figures of course, both in the 18English letter and in the German letter, June 4th. I said 19it becomes more lurid with each subsequent version, first 20no gassings, then 50, then 15,000 in all. I suggest brute 21force by interrogators perhaps. 22Q.
[Mr Rampton]
So you are quite prepared to accept that these accounts, 23he goes on on a subsequent page to give an account of 24gassings of crematorium (ii) in Berkenhau? 25A.
[Mr Irving]
We have exactly same problem with Rudolf Hoess. We know 26Rudolf Hoess was badly manhandled and no doubt he richly

. P-43

1deserved it, but his account also became more lurid with 2each successive interrogation. 3Q.
[Mr Rampton]
Mr Irving, your answers are in danger of becoming 4characteristically inconsistent, if I may say so. You 5were worried that Colonel Scotland may have tortured these 6numbers, or threatened to do so, out of Almeyer, is that 7right? 8A.
[Mr Irving]
That is not actually what I said. I said his account 9becomes more lurid with each successive interrogation. 10That is all one can safely say, looking at them, on the 11basis of a first blush look at the entire file. 12Q.
[Mr Rampton]
Let us start again, Mr Irving. If this is a flawed 13account, and an obviously flawed account ---- 14A.
[Mr Irving]
In the opinion of your own expert witness. 15Q.
[Mr Rampton]
No. If you only have to compare it with the rest of the 16evidence. I know you have never done that, but it is, let 17me tell you, in certain respects unclear, confused and 18inaccurate. The guts of it, however, I put to you a 19moment ago, are dangerous to revisionists. If this 20account had been beaten or threatened out of this man by 21the brutal British interrogators, would you not think that 22they would have made it consistent with what else they 23knew? 24A.
[Mr Irving]
That is perhaps what they were doing. 25Q.
[Mr Rampton]
Would you not think ---- 26A.
[Mr Irving]
Perhaps that is why it is marginally consistent with other

. P-44

1accounts known at this time. By this time, you have to 2remember, they already knew quite a lot from other 3interrogations. 4Q.
[Mr Rampton]
Exactly. So they would have made Almeyer get it right. 5They have not only got all the details right, they would 6have got the numbers right, would they not, Mr Irving? 7A.
[Mr Irving]
What you mean? Put in 2.8 million or some ---- 8Q.
[Mr Rampton]
Whatever. But 15,000? That is pathetic, is it not? That 9is not a very good answer to a threat of torture or 10torture itself, is it? 11A.
[Mr Irving]
Maybe that was going to be in a later stage. Maybe there 12was going to be an interrogation 5 or 6 when he came to 13Nuremberg into the shadow of the gallows. This is a 14rather threadbare kind of argument. We do not know what 15stage they reached in their coercion. 16Q.
[Mr Rampton]
Mr Irving, you have made a suggestion in this letter to 17your chums in the revisionist movement to the effect that 18this man gave a fallacious account because he was tortured 19or threatened with torture by the Brits. You have 20absolutely no basis for that whatsoever. 21A.
[Mr Irving]
Mr Rampton, when the time comes to cross-examine your 22expert witnesses, I shall be putting to them documents 23which show very clearly what methods were used to extract 24information from witnesses, including some of the most 25brutal and horrifying descriptions of what happened to the 26witnesses in the Malmedy trial. I shall invite them to

. P-45

1state whether they consider this kind of evidence is 2dependable. 3Q.
[Mr Rampton]
Mr Irving,, I am tempted myself to resort such methods to 4get a straight answer to my question, I have to say. You 5have no evidential ---- 6A.
[Mr Irving]
It included, for example, crushing the testicles of 165 7out of 167 witnesses. Is that what you are proposing to 8do to me? 9Q.
[Mr Rampton]
We cannot fit that many witnesses into your witness box up 10there, Mr Irving, I am afraid. Can you turn to the next 11page, 92, please? It has a 92 in the right hand corner, 12so that you can identify it. It is a letter from you, 13London, 4th June 1992 -- it is a facsimile -- to Karl 14Philip. Just tell me, does it say more or less the same 15as what your letter to Mark Weber said? 16A.
[Mr Irving]
Yes. I do not know what file I am supposed to be looking 17at. 18MR JUSTICE GRAY: I think the answer is yes, having read 19through it. 20MR RAMPTON: It looks like it. My German is rotten but it 21looks much the same. 22MR JUSTICE GRAY: Who is Philip? 23MR RAMPTON: That is my next question. Who is Karl Philip? 24A.
[Mr Irving]
He is a German friend of mine. 25Q.
[Mr Rampton]
Why would he want to have this information? 26A.
[Mr Irving]
I would have to think back. In 1992 he was publishing a

. P-46

1newsletter. 2Q.
[Mr Rampton]
He is another revisionist, is he not? 3A.
[Mr Irving]
Oh yes. He is a wicked revisionist. 4Q.
[Mr Rampton]
No, he is another revisionist? 5A.
[Mr Irving]
But I said yes, he is a revisionist. 6Q.
[Mr Rampton]
You said he was a wicked revisionist. Would you like to 7expand on why he is wicked? 8A.
[Mr Irving]
Apparently all revisionists are wicked. This is a piece 9of sarcasm on my part which obviously totally escaped you. 10Q.
[Mr Rampton]
Mr Irving, revisionists are wicked if they tell deliberate 11falsehoods about the past. 12A.
[Mr Irving]
Let us hear if you can catch me out in telling deliberate 13falsehoods on oath, which is of course a serious matter. 14MR JUSTICE GRAY: On we go, I think. 15MR RAMPTON: I quite agree. The last three pages in this 16little clip should be some pages from your book 17Nuremberg. Do you recognize them? Starting with the page 18number 245. 19A.
[Mr Irving]
Yes. 20Q.
[Mr Rampton]
There is a paragraph at the bottom of page 245 which 21begins, "in fact Eichmann". 22A.
[Mr Irving]
Yes. I just have the notes here. I have 245, yes, page 236. 24Q.
[Mr Rampton]
"In fact Eichmann had no authority to issue orders to 25Hoess, as they were in different branches..." I will not 26bother to read that. You are talking about the material

. P-47

1presented by the Allies at Nuremberg, I suppose, are you? 2"There is no trace on the Allied aerial photographs 3either of such burning operations or of the pits 4themselves. Perhaps for security reasons, the Allies made 5no attempt to introduce these highly detailed aerial 6photographs of Auschwitz in this or the later war crimes 7trial". 8 Those are probably including some of the 9photographs we looked at earlier in this trial, are they 10not, Mr Irving? 11A.
[Mr Irving]
Yes. The aerial photographs helped in particular with 12secrecy by the Americans and the British after the war. 13Q.
[Mr Rampton]
Now, the footnote there is 34, and you will find that 14footnote on the next following page in this little clip of 15documents. At the bottom of the page, I am afraid the 16page has lost its number. 17A.
[Mr Irving]
Pages 4 and 5. 18Q.
[Mr Rampton]
Yes. It is page 353 of the book. You write: "Nor did 19they (that is Allies) introduce other compelling evidence 20about Auschwitz, for example, the testimony of SS 21Sturmbannfuhrer Kurt Almeyer". In fact I think he is 22called Hans Almeyer, is he not? 23A.
[Mr Irving]
That I do not know. 24Q.
[Mr Rampton]
-- "who had for several weeks acted as deputy Kommandant 25of Auschwitz. Almeyer was initially as incoherent as 26Hoess under interrogation by the British in Norway and

. P-48

1England. The memoirs and manuscripts which he pencilled 2in the Kensington Interrogation centre commanded by 3Lieutenant Colonel Scotland also displayed an increasing 4precision with each week that passed. The final 5manuscript (or fair copy) signed by Almeyer was pencilled 6in British Army style with all proper names in block 7letters. Almeyer was extradited by the British to 8Poland and hanged." 9 If you write the words "compelling evidence", 10are you being sarcastic? 11A.
[Mr Irving]
It is compelling. It is very important. I have always 12been puzzled why that evidence was not introduced at 13Nuremberg, unless perhaps the experts at Nuremberg said 14this will harm us more than it helps us because of the 15figures. 16Q.
[Mr Rampton]
How many people were tried at Nuremberg for the sorts of 17crimes alleged to have been committed at Auschwitz and 18Birkenhau? 19A.
[Mr Irving]
At the principal trial there were 22 Defendants and in the 20subsequent actions, there were 12 subsequent actions with 21the United States, people of the United States against 22individual groups. 23Q.
[Mr Rampton]
How many of the 22 pleaded guilty? 24A.
[Mr Irving]
None of them. 25Q.
[Mr Rampton]
Were they all convicted? 26A.
[Mr Irving]
Two were acquitted.

. P-49

1Q.
[Mr Rampton]
Was the evidence of, for example, Heinrich Tauber used at 2Nuremberg? 3A.
[Mr Irving]
I do not think so. I do not know, is the answer to that. 4Q.
[Mr Rampton]
Right. I just want to come back to one thing on this. 5MR JUSTICE GRAY: Before you leave that, I am a bit puzzled, 6Mr Irving. Can you help me? I had got the impression 7that you really thought that Almeyer's account was not 8worthless but really not worth a great deal because of the 9inaccuracy. 10A.
[Mr Irving]
It is questionable material, but obviously, if you read 11the whole file, this was a man who was in a position to 12know. He is an important character, and I am surprised 13that they did not introduce either his statements or call 14him as a witness. 15Q.
[Mr Justice Gray]
If it is questionable, why do you describe it in your 16Nuremberg book as compelling? 17A.
[Mr Irving]
It is compelling evidence which needs to be examined. It 18is compelling evidence that should have been before the 19court if they were looking at these atrocities. It is one 20of the oddities of the Nuremberg War Crimes trial that 21Auschwitz was hardly mentioned. The prosecution of crimes 22against humanity was left to the French and the Russian 23prosecutors, and the actual events in Auschwitz were very 24skimpily touched upon. The purpose of this footnote, my 25Lord, is to bring the attention of the Almeyer file to the 26historical community, to say there is this material, here

. P-50

1is the file number, it is important stuff, go for it. 2MR RAMPTON: When was book published? 1996? 3A.
[Mr Irving]
It was written in 1994, yes. 4Q.
[Mr Rampton]
When was the first time you went public on Almeyer? You 5discovered it in the beginning of June 92. 6A.
[Mr Irving]
I drew attention of the fellow historians to it and other 7writers from 1992 onwards immediately. I found one letter 8in October 1992 to a Mr Paul Gifford, to whom I sent the 9entire file on the Holocaust, including the Almeyer 10material. 11Q.
[Mr Rampton]
Who is he? 12A.
[Mr Irving]
He is a British writer. If you are interested in this 13letter, it was in the discovery. I sent it to him on 14October 7th, saying this file must be returned within four 15weeks please. I sent him a reminder on 29th 1992, that is 16the same year as I found it, saying please now return the 17file. So it went on. I sent it to Gerald Fleming. I 18believe I drew Sir Martin Guildford's attention to it, but 19on that I cannot be certain without looking at my papers. 20Q.
[Mr Rampton]
I cannot challenge that. I am in no position to do that. 21A.
[Mr Irving]
I certainly drew the attention of, I would say, half a 22dozen or a dozen other writers around the world over these 23years to the Almeyer file. 24Q.
[Mr Rampton]
Finally this, Mr Irving, I am reading now ----. 25A.
[Mr Irving]
Quite simply because I was not an expert on it and they 26were better placed than I was to evaluate it.

. P-51

1Q.
[Mr Rampton]
I am reading now from the report of Professor Funker, 2which you may or may not yet have read, who will be giving 3evidence, I hope, in about a fortnight's time, about 4political movements and figures in modern Germany. You 5know who I mean, do you not? Hyo Funker? 6A.
[Mr Irving]
Yes. 7Q.
[Mr Rampton]
I think he is a Professor in Berlin. He tells us this 8about Karl Philip and I want you to comment on it. 9A.
[Mr Irving]
Yes. 10Q.
[Mr Rampton]
You will obviously get the chance to cross-examine him if 11he is going to be a witness, I mean Professor Funker. 12Karl Philip NPD: What is NPD? 13A.
[Mr Irving]
It is national something or other. 14Q.
[Mr Rampton]
Party Deutschland? 15A.
[Mr Irving]
Yes. 16Q.
[Mr Rampton]
Is that a legal political party in Germany? 17A.
[Mr Irving]
What are you suggesting, that he was a member or an 18official of it? I do not know. 19Q.
[Mr Rampton]
Functionary? 20A.
[Mr Irving]
I do not know. That is news to me. 21Q.
[Mr Rampton]
You do not know that? In the 1970s and 1980s? 22A.
[Mr Irving]
No. 23Q.
[Mr Rampton]
Did you know that in 1990 he received a fine of about 243,600 deutschemark for incitement of the people and 25defamation? 26A.
[Mr Irving]
I know the expression give a dog bad name and hang them,

. P-52

1yes. 2Q.
[Mr Rampton]
Is it correct that he received a fine, to your 3knowledge -- if you do not know, say so -- of 3,600 4deutschemarks for incitement of the people and defamation? 5A.
[Mr Irving]
This is not known to me, no. 6Q.
[Mr Rampton]
It is not known to you? 7A.
[Mr Irving]
When was this? 8Q.
[Mr Rampton]
1990. 9A.
[Mr Irving]
No. 10Q.
[Mr Rampton]
When did you first meet Mr Philip? 11A.
[Mr Irving]
1989, October 23rd or thereabouts. 12Q.
[Mr Rampton]
How often do you correspond, speak to or meet Mr Philip, 13Herr Philip? 14A.
[Mr Irving]
I suppose 1989, for about two years. He was in 15correspondence with me for those two years. He 16occasionally sends me emails now. 17Q.
[Mr Rampton]
Do you know a newspaper called Die Barenschaft? 18A.
[Mr Irving]
The little magazine, yes. 19Q.
[Mr Rampton]
Is a neo-Nazi magazine? 20A.
[Mr Irving]
I do not know. I never opened it. It was sent to me and 21it went straight into the trash can. 22Q.
[Mr Rampton]
Do you know Ahmed Rami of Radio Islam in Stockholm? 23A.
[Mr Irving]
I have had no dealings with him whatsoever. 24MR JUSTICE GRAY: Are you leaving Almeyer? 25MR RAMPTON: Yes, I am. 26MR JUSTICE GRAY: Mr Rampton, is the allegation pursued that

. P-53

1Mr Irving sat on the Almeyer material until it was 2discovered by the defendants' solicitors? 3MR RAMPTON: Since I am in no position to challenge that he 4wrote to these various people when he says that he did, it 5obviously is not. He did not go into public print on 6until the Nuremberg book but he did mention it there. 7A.
[Mr Irving]
The reason I did not go in public with it is because it 8was my scoop, and although I am known for my generosity in 9giving my files away to other writers, this particular one 10---- 11Q.
[Mr Rampton]
What would be the value of a scoop, Mr Irving, when, as 12soon as you have made the scoop, according to you, you 13have to throw it away because it has been devalued by 14being tortured out of the man who provided it? 15A.
[Mr Irving]
No. What would happened, you see, is just the same as the 16Institute of History in Munich published the Hoess 17memoirs. I would have contemplated publishing the Almeyer 18memoirs with suitable surrounding material and documents 19from the archives, but from 1993 of course this became 20impossible when I was banned from the German archives on 21July 1st and banned from German soil on November 9th. 22Q.
[Mr Rampton]
It would be a bit like publishing the Hitler diaries and 23saying, look at this, it not terrific, it is a forgery? 24It would be absolutely worthless, would it not, according 25to you? 26A.
[Mr Irving]
I can see no comparison whatsoever.

. P-54

1Q.
[Mr Rampton]
Now I want to move to something else, if I may. Again it 2is only a little point. My Lord, what I am going to do, 3if I may, is spend a little time just clearing up some 4loose ends. Loose ends do happen in the course of 5litigation. 6MR JUSTICE GRAY: Of course they do. Can you explain to me, as 7you do so, where the loose ends fit in? 8MR RAMPTON: I am now going to deal with three documents which 9Mr Irving Denied in evidence that he had ever seen. 10A.
[Mr Irving]
Can I come back on the Almeyer thing by way of 11re-examination, so to speak? 12MR JUSTICE GRAY: Yes. 13A.
[Mr Irving]
Your Lordship very rightly asked if they were upholding 14that allegation that I sat on it. There is the specific 15allegation in the van Pelt report that I did not let it be 16known until I heard that Mishcon de Reya ---- 17MR JUSTICE GRAY: That was what I was asking Mr Rampton about. 18A.
[Mr Irving]
You did not specifically mention that footnote, my Lord. 19I think I have established that I put it in the public 20domain long before Mishcon de Reya started scrabbling 21around in the archives. 22MR JUSTICE GRAY: Mr Rampton is not pursuing that allegation. 23MR RAMPTON: I am not pursuing it, subject to this, that 24I would quite like to see the letters which he said that 25he wrote to the various historians. 26A.
[Mr Irving]
Certainly. I will try to find them. I have seven copies

. P-55

1of it here, if you would like to have this. 2Q.
[Mr Rampton]
Being a suspicious bloke, I like to see the chapter and 3verse. 4A.
[Mr Irving]
This is dated October 7th 1992 and there are seven copies 5of it which I did at 4 o'clock this morning. 6Q.
[Mr Rampton]
My Lord, what I am going to do now is refer to three 7documents -- they are different documents -- which Mr 8Irving told us in evidence that he had never seen. The 9first one is the letter from Muller, the head of the 10Gestapo, the order rather, to the Einsatzgruppen, all four 11of them, of 1st August 1941, which says, in effect, that 12the Fuhrer will be getting continuous reports about the 13work of the Einsatzgruppen in the East. 14MR JUSTICE GRAY: Where is it, just in case it is necessary to 15look at it? 16MR RAMPTON: My Lord, it is in Professor Browning's documents. 17It is referred to by him. 18MR JUSTICE GRAY: That will do. 19MR RAMPTON: On page 7 of his report. I think my memory is 20that he has written it out in translation. Unfortunately, 21I do not have it here. It is actually in H4 (ii). 22MR JUSTICE GRAY: I think that, unless Mr Irving wants it dug 23out, this will probably do. 24MR RAMPTON: I have given a sort of a translation. 25A.
[Mr Irving]
I am not normally very picky, my Lord, but in this 26particular case it would be nice sometime to see the

. P-56

1original or a facsimile of it. 2MR RAMPTON: I agree. I do believe that Mr Irving should be 3given H4 (ii). That is actually Dr Longerich's documents 4but it is the same document. 5A.
[Mr Irving]
It is a document from the Russian archives? 6Q.
[Mr Rampton]
Yes, and it is the first sentence of the writing which 7I am interested in. It is footnote 143, in handwriting at 8the bottom right hand corner of the page. Do you see it? 9It is a copy. 10A.
[Mr Irving]
Yes. 11Q.
[Mr Rampton]
It says so. Did I more or less translate the first 12sentence correctly? 13A.
[Mr Irving]
Oh dear. I can only say "oh dear" about this document. 14Where does it come from? 15Q.
[Mr Rampton]
I can tell you that, Mr Irving. It has been available in 16the Munich Institute of Contemporary History IFZ with the 17reference number FA 213/3 since before 1982. 18A.
[Mr Irving]
That does not tell us so much about the provenance though, 19does it? 20Q.
[Mr Rampton]
Why? What is the matter with it? 21A.
[Mr Irving]
Well, I mean, normally you would have either a Nuremberg 22document number in the top right hand corner or some 23indication of provenance and it would not contain German 24spelling mistakes. 25Q.
[Mr Rampton]
Why not? Do soldiers not make mistakes when they write, 26or civil servants? Goodness me. We have spotted several

. P-57

1already in the original documents in this case, have we 2not? 3MR JUSTICE GRAY: Are you saying that this not an authentic 4document? 5MR RAMPTON: Another fake, I think. He does not like it so it 6is another fake. 7A.
[Mr Irving]
I am seeing this for the first time, of course, but 8I noticed straightaway at the bottom line that 9interestingly it does use the SS runes after the word 10"Muller", which implies that it is a wartime document. 11MR JUSTICE GRAY: I think I am looking at the wrong document. 12A.
[Mr Irving]
My Lord, it is footnote 143. 13MR JUSTICE GRAY: I see. There are two 143s. 14MR RAMPTON: I am sorry, it is a copy. 15MR JUSTICE GRAY: It is page 295? 16MR RAMPTON: That is right, yes. 17MR JUSTICE GRAY: There is another footnote 143. 18MR RAMPTON: I am sorry about that. Both Dr Longerich and 19Professor Browning make reference to this. 20A.
[Mr Irving]
It may be that I am more picky than they are when I am 21dealing with what looks like a duplicated copy of a 22document. 23Q.
[Mr Rampton]
Never mind. It is a what? 24A.
[Mr Irving]
It looks like a duplicated copy of a document, in other 25words on an old fashioned Gestetner duplicator, so to 26speak, but it has the SS runes on it after the name

. P-58

1Muller, which implies, or should be taken to imply, that 2it is a wartime document rather than a postwar one. 3Q.
[Mr Rampton]
I would guess that it is. Why not? 4A.
[Mr Irving]
What worries me is the word "verschlussel" in the fifth 5line, which is neither fish nor fowl in German. It is 6"verschlussel". It is not "verschlusselt," it is not 7"verschlusselung". It is a word that does not exist by 8itself. 9Q.
[Mr Rampton]
Well tell me what it means. 10A.
[Mr Irving]
If it was completed it could be to be coded or cyphered, 11encyphered, but it is just, as I said, wrong. 12Q.
[Mr Rampton]
Mr Irving, suppose that there was an N instead of an L, 13would that make a difference? 14A.
[Mr Irving]
It would have to be after the L. It is a strange error, 15I would say that. If it is genuine, then the next thing 16I would point to, of course, is the fact that it has a 17very low classification, just G, secret. 18Q.
[Mr Rampton]
Mr Irving, I am not asking you about the document. 19A.
[Mr Irving]
All right. 20Q.
[Mr Rampton]
When I asked you about this document before, it was ages 21ago, you denied ever having seen it. 22A.
[Mr Irving]
Now I am seeing it for the first time, yes. 23Q.
[Mr Rampton]
So you say. 24A.
[Mr Irving]
I beg your pardon. I am on oath and, if I say I am seeing 25this for the first time, then I am seeing it for the first 26time.

. P-59

1Q.
[Mr Rampton]
Mr Irving, you have said many things on oath which 2I simply do not accept, so we can get past that childish 3stage of this interrogation. 4A.
[Mr Irving]
I think this is probably the time to have it out. Where 5you think I am lying on oath, then you should say so. 6MR JUSTICE GRAY: He is saying so. 7MR RAMPTON: I am doubting it, Mr Irving. 8A.
[Mr Irving]
My Lord, he is not saying when. He is just alleging in 9broad terms. 10MR JUSTICE GRAY: Mr Irving, that is not right. Let me make it 11clear to you. 12MR RAMPTON: Will you please wait. I do not do that. 13MR JUSTICE GRAY: We are all talking at once. Mr Rampton, I 14was talking. 15MR RAMPTON: I am sorry. It might be valuable if your Lordship 16reminded Mr Irving of my duty. 17MR JUSTICE GRAY: Yes, I am going to. I think it is fair to 18say that every time Mr Rampton is challenging the truth or 19credibility of what you are saying, he has made that clear 20in his questions. 21A.
[Mr Irving]
He is saying that he does not believe ---- 22Q.
[Mr Justice Gray]
Please wait. If you think that he is not making his case 23clear at any point, then you are entitled to say, what are 24you asking me, Mr Rampton? What are you putting to me? 25But on this particular document, I would like to know 26whether you do or do not challenge its authenticity.

. P-60

1A.
[Mr Irving]
I think for the purpose of today I will accept that it is 2genuine, but it has these blemishes to which I may refer 3later on. But to suggest that I have seen this document 4before is inaccurate and untrue. 5MR RAMPTON: I have not said that yet, Mr Irving. 6A.
[Mr Irving]
You said "so you say" and the record shows that. 7Q.
[Mr Rampton]
I do say "so you say" because I doubt your answer, and 8I will tell you precisely now why I doubt it, as I always 9do, because I am not allowed to make that suggestion 10unless I have a basis for doing so. It has been in Gerald 11Fleming's book "Hitler und die endlosung" ever since 121982. 13A.
[Mr Irving]
I have not read that book. 14Q.
[Mr Rampton]
You have not read that book? 15A.
[Mr Irving]
It has been sent to me twice by Gerald Fleming, once in 16English and once in German, and I have not read that book. 17Q.
[Mr Rampton]
Are you not interested in books which contain references 18to documents which focus on your very field of historical 19activity, that is to say the connection between Adolf 20Hitler and the endlosung? 21A.
[Mr Irving]
The reason why is because Gerald Fleming and I had a very 22lively correspondence and he was constantly sending me 23copies of his latest documents. It is was unlikely there 24were going to be documents in the book which he had not 25already sent me months earlier. 26Q.
[Mr Rampton]
You told us near the beginning of the case that Gerald

. P-61

1Fleming has done some very good work on one particular 2episode, not this. That was Bruns and Altemeyer. 3A.
[Mr Irving]
Yes he corresponded with me about it. You have seen my 4entire file of correspondence with Gerald Fleming and you 5know exactly how detailed that correspondence is. It is 6about 4 inches thick. 7Q.
[Mr Rampton]
Do you possess a copy of "Hitler und die endlosung"? 8A.
[Mr Irving]
Yes, two copies. 9Q.
[Mr Rampton]
And you have never looked at them? 10A.
[Mr Irving]
I may have looked for a specific document in it. I seem 11to remember looking to see -- that is right. When I wrote 12my web site page on General Bruns, I checked up on the 13spellings of the names and the correct identification of 14Altemeyer and people like that, and I used it as a 15reference work. I looked in the index, in other words, 16for Bruns and Altemeyer and got the data out of that, one 17or other of the editions. 18Q.
[Mr Rampton]
How much time have you spent in the Munich archive, the 19IFZ if that is what it is? 20A.
[Mr Irving]
Until I was banned in 1993? I was there from 1963 for 30 21years. 22Q.
[Mr Rampton]
If Gerald Fleming found it in the Munich archive before 23his book was published while he was writing it, it was 24published in 1982 and you spent time in that archive, 25I know not how many days or hours or weeks, looking for 26documents about Hitler. Do you expect us to believe that

. P-62

1you did not come across this document? 2A.
[Mr Irving]
Both. I looked for documents back in 1964 and 1965 and 3I hired a lady whose name almost certainly will be 4mentioned later on in today's hearing to do the research 5for me, to re-research the files for me, looking for 6material on Adolf Hitler and the final solution, and 7certainly neither of us came across that document. 8However, your researchers could have established if I saw 9that particular file, because the IFZ keeps a detailed log 10of who sees each file, just as the Public Record Office 11does. 12Q.
[Mr Rampton]
Down the line that may happen, Mr Irving. Now I want to 13turn to another document, which I find even more puzzling, 14if I may say so. 15A.
[Mr Irving]
You are implying that the IFZ has a record of my having 16seen that document, which is untrue. 17Q.
[Mr Rampton]
No, I am not implying that at all. I have absolutely no 18idea. All I would say, if you want me---- 19A.
[Mr Irving]
That was the innuendo of "down the line this may happen", 20was it not? 21Q.
[Mr Rampton]
It may do if we look. That is all that means. All I will 22say at the moment, if you want me comment, is this, that 23I do not find your answer very convincing. But that is 24not my task, it is his Lordship's task. 25A.
[Mr Irving]
I am sorry I do not convince you but it is your duty to 26come forward with plausible evidence to the court that I

. P-63

1am lying, and you cannot because I have not seen this 2document before. 3Q.
[Mr Rampton]
You have two copies of Gerald Fleming's book. 4A.
[Mr Irving]
I have two copies of Fleming's book, one in German and one 5in English. 6Q.
[Mr Rampton]
You write about Hitler and his connection with the 7endlosung. You spent hours in the Munich archive and this 8is a key document which you have missed. 9A.
[Mr Irving]
I read the reviews by Tom Bower and by Gordon Craig of 10Gerald Fleming's book. Tom Bower said that Gerald Fleming 11has failed to destroy David Irving's central hypothesis, 12and Gordon Craig said exactly the same. That being so, 13why should I waste my time reading that book, apart from 14looking up specific references, because undoubtedly 15Fleming has done very detailed research, but I am not a 16Holocaust historian. If I was writing a book about the 17Holocaust, then no doubt I would consult Fleming. 18MR JUSTICE GRAY: This does not really go to the Holocaust, 19does it? It goes to Hitler's knowledge of the shooting by 20the Einsatzgruppen. 21A.
[Mr Irving]
Yes, but I can only repeat that my attention was never 22drawn to this document, I never saw it in that book, there 23is no reason why I should have done. 24MR JUSTICE GRAY: It has not yet been established there is any 25evidence you actually saw this although I think the 26evidence does suggest you had an opportunity to find it.

. P-64

1MR RAMPTON: I make it quite clear I shall invite---- 2A.
[Mr Irving]
I had an opportunity to find very large numbers of 3documents, my Lord. 4MR JUSTICE GRAY: It is a different thing, I accept that. 5A.
[Mr Irving]
But I am very well known for not consulting other people's 6books. If Gerald Fleming had sent me the document as a 7copy, which I would have expected him to have done, then 8I would of course have taken it into account. 9MR RAMPTON: I am sorry, I am a little bit at sea, Mr Irving, 10because this has only just been brought to my attention. 11You were asked some questions in an IHR conference on 4th 12September 1983 -- I am telling you this as a fact because 13I have the printed version in front of me -- and the 14question was: Could you give your reaction to the recent 15book by Gerald Fleming, "Hitler und die endlosung", so we 16are talking about the same thing, are we not? 17A.
[Mr Irving]
Yes. 18Q.
[Mr Rampton]
Then you say this. I have not been able to edit it 19because I have only just been shown it. "Yes, Gerald 20Fleming, frightfully nice, he and I were face to face once 21on the David Frost programme" -- again it does not seem 22to be much of an answer to the question -- "for an hour 23and a half in England on television. He was not able to 24prove me wrong then. He has ever since felt mortally 25wounded by the fact that he was not able to prove me wrong 26in front of" -- goodness me, this is all about the

. P-65

1television audience. 2A.
[Mr Irving]
I am failing to answer a question, am I? 3Q.
[Mr Rampton]
Yes, you are. 4A.
[Mr Irving]
Yet again. 5Q.
[Mr Rampton]
Because you were asked the question, what do you think of 6the book? 7A.
[Mr Irving]
Well, I probably did not want to admit that I had not read 8it. 9Q.
[Mr Rampton]
The reviewers admit in reviewing his book that he has not 10found the evidence that I am wrong, that he has not found 11documentary proof. 12A.
[Mr Irving]
That is exactly what I just said 17 years later. My 13memory is not all that bad. 14Q.
[Mr Rampton]
"His book in fact is a lie"? 15A.
[Mr Irving]
Yes. 16Q.
[Mr Rampton]
How on earth can you say that about a book you have not 17read? 18A.
[Mr Irving]
I have read the reviews. The book was written as an 19attempt -- the book has been written specifically, it says 20in the introduction, this is an attempt to answer David 21Irving. The whole reason he wrote the book was to answer 22my book "Hitler's War". I read the reviews by Tom Bower 23and numerous other people and they say this book has 24failed to refute David Irving. 25MR JUSTICE GRAY: I am sorry, I am going to come back to what 26seems to be perhaps more important. I had the impression,

. P-66

1and it is a long time ago now that we had evidence about 2it, that you accepted that Hitler was kept informed about 3the shootings by the Einsatzgruppen? 4A.
[Mr Irving]
You are absolutely right, my Lord. Certainly as far as 5the Russians Jews were concerned, and the non-German Jews 6were concerned. 7MR RAMPTON: My Lord, I am on the question whether Mr Irving 8was telling the truth when he said first time around that 9he had never seen this document. 10A.
[Mr Irving]
I can tell you I have never seen this document before in 11my life. 12Q.
[Mr Rampton]
Mr Irving, laughing will not help. I am going to read on 13what you said at this IHR conference shortly after the 14book was published. "The book is a lie because the book's 15title is 'Hitler and the Final Solution' when underneath 16is a subtitle in quotes, 'it is the Fuhrer's wish...'". 17A.
[Mr Irving]
It is the Fuhrer's order, yes. 18Q.
[Mr Rampton]
"As though this is from some document. In fact it is 19not. This is just what some Nazi big wig after the war, 20sweating and pleading for his life in the dock at 21Nuremberg or somewhere else, tried to claim that it was 22the Fuhrer's wish that this should be done. This is 23precisely the kind of evidence which I am not prepared to 24accept. It is a well-written book. He has done a lot of 25research but he constantly mixes first, second and third 26order evidence in a completely reprehensible way".

. P-67

1A.
[Mr Irving]
Yes. 2Q.
[Mr Rampton]
You did not read the book? 3A.
[Mr Irving]
This is precisely what the reviewer said. Actually, 4exactly what the reviewer said about the book. I can 5produce to you tomorrow the reviews by Tom Bauer and 6Gordon Craig and the other reviewers of the Gerald 7Flemming book. 8Q.
[Mr Rampton]
Mr Irving, was there in your discovery ---- 9A.
[Mr Irving]
And also in correspondent with me he told me what he was 10going to base his subtitle on, namely a particular 11statement by a particular General. Every time he found a 12new document, he would write me a triumphant letter. 13I remember that one particularly. 14Q.
[Mr Rampton]
Mr Irving, was there in your third supplemental list of 15documents two editions, one in German -- no, sorry, an 16edition of a German book by a man called Koegon and 17others? 18A.
[Mr Irving]
Eugene Koegon, yes -- a murderer. 19Q.
[Mr Rampton]
And you know that its German edition is called "National 20Sozialistische Massentugenturm Durch Giftgas"? 21A.
[Mr Irving]
That is right. Koegon is on the United Nations "Wanted" 22list for mass murder. 23Q.
[Mr Rampton]
What is the point of that remark? 24A.
[Mr Irving]
Well, I am just trying to, shall we say, equalify the 25author of this work so that you know what kind of 26credentials he has.

. P-68

1Q.
[Mr Rampton]
I am not interested in the very least in Mr Koegon's 2credentials. He has not brought an action for damages for 3libel against my clients. 4A.
[Mr Irving]
Well, just in case you rely on anything Mr Koegon wrote. 5Q.
[Mr Rampton]
No. Have you a copy of the English edition published in 6New Haven in 1993? 7A.
[Mr Irving]
That I do not know offhand, probably not. 8Q.
[Mr Rampton]
It has been disclosed in your supplemental list of 9documents. 10A.
[Mr Irving]
Well, then, it is probably on my book shelf, yes. 11I certainly would not have purchased it. Somebody must 12have handed it to me. 13Q.
[Mr Rampton]
You what? 14A.
[Mr Irving]
I would not have purchased it. Somebody must have sent it 15to me. 16Q.
[Mr Rampton]
You would not have purchased it? So that is another book 17you will never have read? 18A.
[Mr Irving]
Oh, yes. 19Q.
[Mr Rampton]
You mean you will not have read it? 20A.
[Mr Irving]
Highly unlikely that I would have read it and I can say 21for certain I have not read his book. 22Q.
[Mr Rampton]
You see, it contains printed out in full -- if you are 23interested in this subject, of course ---- 24A.
[Mr Irving]
Yes. 25Q.
[Mr Rampton]
--- what the people were doing to the Jews in that part of 26Eastern Europe during 1941, '42 and'43, if you are

. P-69

1interested in that subject, it contains printed out in 2full the RSHA letter of 5th June 1942 which recites that 3they have managed to process 97,000 people in gas vans at 4Chelmo. Do you remember that document? 5A.
[Mr Irving]
Yes, the incredible -- 97,000 people in how many weeks, 6five weeks? 7Q.
[Mr Rampton]
Five weeks. 8A.
[Mr Irving]
That is approximately 40 people her hour per van. 9Q.
[Mr Rampton]
You accepted it. I am not going back to that, Mr Irving. 10A.
[Mr Irving]
Well, we are going to be questioning your experts about 11those figures when the time comes. 12Q.
[Mr Rampton]
You may do whatever you like with my experts ---- 13A.
[Mr Irving]
I remember the document clearly. 14Q.
[Mr Rampton]
Provided, Mr Irving, you let them finish their answers. 15Mr Irving, that document, you accepted when I was 16cross-examining you earlier in this case ---- 17A.
[Mr Irving]
It is a genuine document. 18Q.
[Mr Rampton]
Yes, and you accepted that it showed that, so far from 19being an experiment on a small scale, this was a 20systematic and large scale operation? 21A.
[Mr Irving]
Well, we are going to be looking at the figures later on, 22as I say. 23Q.
[Mr Rampton]
Mr Irving, you have already accepted that. 24A.
[Mr Irving]
Do not start brow beating me about the figures. I have 25accepted the document is genuine, but we are going to be 26looking at the figures when your experts are standing

. P-70

1here. 2Q.
[Mr Rampton]
If we need to go back, Mr Irving, to see what you actually 3said, we will, but that is not the point. You denied ever 4having seen that document before? 5A.
[Mr Irving]
Yes. 6Q.
[Mr Rampton]
But you have a copy of the book in which this document is 7actually printed? 8A.
[Mr Irving]
And? 9Q.
[Mr Rampton]
Are you interested in this period of history or not? 10A.
[Mr Irving]
I am not interested in that aspect of the history, no. 11I am interested in Adolf Hitler's personal role in 12decisions taken during World War II. 13Q.
[Mr Rampton]
And you do not think the question whether or not these 14gassings and shootings in the East were large scale and 15systematic has anything to do with Hitler's role, is that 16is right? 17A.
[Mr Irving]
Mr Rampton, I do not know if you have ever written a book 18in your life. You probably have. 19Q.
[Mr Rampton]
As a matter of fact, I have. 20MR JUSTICE GRAY: We have had this before, yes. 21MR RAMPTON: It is a very small book and not a very good one, 22but it does exist, yes. 23A.
[Mr Irving]
Well, I can believe that. 24MR JUSTICE GRAY: Come on, it is ---- 25A.
[Mr Irving]
But the time comes when you have ---- 26MR JUSTICE GRAY: --- degenerating.

. P-71

1A.
[Mr Irving]
Well, that was well deserved modesty on his part. The 2time when you are writing a book when you have to decide 3what to leave in and what to keep out if the book is not 4going to be 2,000 pages long with 8,000 pages of sludge in 5the middle. If you are writing a book about Adolf 6Hitler's command of the war and his command decisions, 7then really what happens in detail, the crimes committed 8by these gangs of gangsters on the Eastern Front, you have 9to decide to leave the detail out otherwise your readers 10will not see the wood for the trees. 11MR RAMPTON: So we have now two books in your possession, one 12was sent to you by the kindly -- is he Professor Fleming? 13A.
[Mr Irving]
I think he probably sent it to me himself. Yes, I think 14he actually dedicated it to me. 15Q.
[Mr Rampton]
And one which either somebody sent you, you certainly 16would not have bought a book by the mass murderer 17Mr Koegon? 18A.
[Mr Irving]
That is what surprises me. You say it is in my book shelf 19and I am sure nobody planted it there, but ---- 20Q.
[Mr Rampton]
It is in your discovery, Mr Irving. 21A.
[Mr Irving]
But, for the life of me, I never knew I had that book in 22my book shelf. 23MR JUSTICE GRAY: Can we just go back to Professor Fleming's 24book for a while? Correct me if have this wrong, 25Mr Irving, you are saying that what you said at IHR press 26conference was derived from the reviews, not from your

. P-72

1reading of the book. One of the things that you said was 2that Professor Fleming is given to citing second and 3third-hand documents? 4A.
[Mr Irving]
Yes. 5Q.
[Mr Justice Gray]
So your evidence is that that also would have come from 6one or other of those two reviews? 7A.
[Mr Irving]
Well, and from the fact that he and I were in almost daily 8correspondence at that time and also on the telephone, he 9would be constantly on the telephone to me, telling me 10about his latest discoveries and latest finds and what he 11was doing and what he was writing. 12Q.
[Mr Justice Gray]
I thought your evidence earlier on was that what you had 13said came from the reviews. 14A.
[Mr Irving]
Well, and from the reviews, yes, but you asked me, my 15Lord, if I have understood correctly, whether my statement 16to the IHR was based only on the reviews, and I was saying 17that those and the personal communications I had with him 18on a daily basis and, indeed, a very, very thick file of 19correspondence with him indeed, mostly handwritten on his 20part. 21MR RAMPTON: There is one more book I am going to ask you 22about, Mr Irving. Do not take it from my silence that 23I accept a word of what you say. The coincidence is too 24great, if I may say so. There is another book. Do you 25remember Gertz Bergander's book about Dresden? 26A.
[Mr Irving]
Indeed, yes.

. P-73

1Q.
[Mr Rampton]
You told us yesterday you have never read that either, did 2you not? 3A.
[Mr Irving]
Certainly I never read it from cover to cover, no. 4Q.
[Mr Rampton]
I asked you twice. 5A.
[Mr Irving]
Yes. 6Q.
[Mr Rampton]
I asked you, "Have you read this 1977 book of his?" 7Answer,"No, I have not". 8A.
[Mr Irving]
Can I enquire what you mean by "read"? Do you mean 9sitting down and opening at page 1 and reading through or 10dipping into it to look for a fact or item? 11Q.
[Mr Rampton]
The context was that you had not read it in such a way as 12to be able to evaluate the figures he gave. 13A.
[Mr Irving]
I want to be precise about the answer I give here, so I 14know what you mean by "read". 15Q.
[Mr Rampton]
You actually interrupted a question -- not for the first 16time -- that I was asking. I will read the whole 17passage. My Lord ---- 18MR JUSTICE GRAY: Page. 19MR RAMPTON: --- page 75 of yesterday's transcript, line 9. 20"If you turn to page 11", my Lord, I said, "of the 21table", that is Miss Rogers' table, "it says, basing 22herself on Professor Evans ... this: '1977, the real TB 2347 comes to light. It is discovered by Bergander who 24found a reservist Ehrlich who had a copy cited at page 261 25of Bergander. Evans describes Bergander as the most 26authoritative work', and so on". Then I turn to

. P-74

1Mr Irving:"I dare say if you have not read Bergander, 2Mr Irving ... you will not be conscious of" ---- And you 3interrupted, Mr Irving, and said this: "Well, Gutz 4Bergander was a very good friend of mine -- he still is a 5very good friend of mine". Question: "Have you read this 61977 book of his?" "I have not, no." 7 Then, my Lord, on page 178 also in yesterday's 8transcript: Question: "Look at Bergander's book. Have 9you not read that?" Answer: "No". 10A.
[Mr Irving]
This is a reference to the Order of the Day, the 11Tagesbefehl? 12Q.
[Mr Rampton]
No, no. 13A.
[Mr Irving]
Well, that was the page you ---- 14Q.
[Mr Rampton]
35,000 was the question. 15A.
[Mr Irving]
Well ---- 16Q.
[Mr Rampton]
Then you said: "I know Bergander very well as a human 17being and I respect him as a friend and he is a jolly 18decent chap, but I do not put his book in the same 19category I put Reichart's book having read Reichart book". 20A.
[Mr Irving]
I assume that I had read Reichart's book at that time, 21yes. 22Q.
[Mr Rampton]
Now, was it true or not -- people make mistakes; you might 23have forgotten -- when you told me that you had not read 24Bergander's book? 25A.
[Mr Irving]
I have never read Bergander's book. 26Q.
[Mr Rampton]
You have never read it?

. P-75

1A.
[Mr Irving]
Yes. I may have dipped into it. I may have looked at the 2photographs or looked to see what his sources were. 3Q.
[Mr Rampton]
What do we understand when on page 281 of your Dresden 41995 edition, at footnote 10, you tell us that Bergander 5-- this is about the ACK-ACK gunners, saying that 6Bergander was one of them -- then you say this: 7"Bergander subsequently published his own well researched 8account of the raids, Dresden, in Luftrieg, Cologne and 9Vienna 1977"? 10A.
[Mr Irving]
Yes. 11Q.
[Mr Rampton]
If you had not read it, how do you know it was well 12researched? 13A.
[Mr Irving]
Because he asked me to help him with the research. That 14is why it was well researched. He is a very good friend 15of mine. He asked me where he should go to, what 16archives. He got all my archives. I give him 8,000 pages 17of my paper. It was a well researched book he wrote. He 18went beyond what I had done and did further research as I 19know. 20Q.
[Mr Rampton]
Is it unreasonable for me to suggest on the basis of this 21morning's discussions, Mr Irving, that everything you do 22not like is either a forgery or you have never seen it 23before? 24A.
[Mr Irving]
Well, you put to me specific example of books and said, 25"Have you read this?" to which my answer has always been 26accurately on oath, "No, I have not read it". We have

. P-76

1looked at two documents today in detail, one of which is 2the crematorium capacity document which I insist is not 3genuine, and nothing that I heard this morning has changed 4my mind on that, and that is the only document I intend 5impugning in this entire legal action. We have looked at 6another document now ---- 7Q.
[Mr Rampton]
You have just been having a go at the Muller order of 1st 8August. 9A.
[Mr Irving]
Well, that is because I have seen it for the first time, 10and every time I look at a document for the first time, my 11first instinct, particularly when it is not an original, 12but a Gestatnat duplicated copy which comes from an 13uncertain provenance with no kind of markings whatsoever, 14is it say, "Hello, what is this then?" If my eye 15immediately alights on German words that have been spelt 16wrong and, as I say, are neither fish nor foul, then that 17makes me slightly more nervous about it. 18MR JUSTICE GRAY: Well, you backed off that in relation to the 19Muller document, did you not? 20A.
[Mr Irving]
I did not want to waste the court's time, my Lord. 21Q.
[Mr Justice Gray]
Well, do not worry about that. 22A.
[Mr Irving]
Well, I appreciate your Lordship's impatience when I start 23looking at documents in detail. 24Q.
[Mr Justice Gray]
No, no, I am not in the least bit impatient. I am 25interested to know. 26A.
[Mr Irving]
No, the reason why I backed off it, my Lord, is because

. P-77

1I accepted that Hitler knew about these actions and there 2not much point going into that one. 3MR RAMPTON: My Lord, I now pass on to something rather more 4central which is Mr Irving's utterances on the subject of 5Jews, blacks, etc. etc., both public and private. 6A.
[Mr Irving]
Are we not dealing with Dr Goebbels today then? The 7Goebbels diaries? 8Q.
[Mr Rampton]
What has Goebbels got to do with it? 9MR JUSTICE GRAY: No, the Goebbels diaries. I think the 10answer is yes if we have time. 11MR RAMPTON: We will get to Moscow along down the road if we 12have time. 13A.
[Mr Irving]
Well, we have my witness coming tomorrow, Mr Peter Millar. 14Q.
[Mr Rampton]
That is fine. I do not mind. You can interpose him if 15I have not finished. I am not troubled about that. 16I will certainly finish tomorrow to make room for 17Professor Browning on Monday. 18MR JUSTICE GRAY: Mr Rampton, may I enquire when these bundles 19that have just been handed up were generated, as it were? 20MR RAMPTON: I think they came into court at about 29 minutes 21past 10. 22MR JUSTICE GRAY: Have they caused you a problem, Mr Irving, 23these new bundles? 24MR RAMPTON: My Lord, they are not new. 25MR JUSTICE GRAY: I appreciate that they are somewhere in some 26bundle, but I am just asking Mr Irving if he has found it

. P-78

1a problem dealing with two new bundles. 2A.
[Mr Irving]
Well, are they new? To what degree are they new? 3MR JUSTICE GRAY: Well, I think the documents are not new in 4the sense that they are probably in one of the other 5files, but I am concerned that you are being presented 6with newly arranged documents and that may cause you a 7problem. 8A.
[Mr Irving]
My Lord, my concern is not being presented with the big 9bundles. I am very concerned about these little 10catalogues of excerpts that they are presenting your 11Lordship with, which appear to look to me not so much like 12case management as case manipulation. 13MR RAMPTON: It is perfectly all right, Mr Irving. Everybody 14has the full text. You are perfectly free to refer to the 15full text or ask the judge to read the full text if you 16should be suspicious. 17A.
[Mr Irving]
Well, I think ---- 18Q.
[Mr Rampton]
If we had not -- Mr Irving, please -- had done this bundle 19of extracts, we shall be here until next Christmas. 20A.
[Mr Irving]
Yes, but we have seen the kind of policy that the Defence 21uses when it makes their extracts and excerpts. There is 22one passage by Professor Evans where "..." stands for 86 23words and four sentences and three full stops and two or 24three semicolons. 25MR JUSTICE GRAY: Well, as we go through, Mr Irving, will you 26say when you think the context ----

. P-79

1A.
[Mr Irving]
Well, it is very difficult ---- 2Q.
[Mr Justice Gray]
--- puts a different gloss on what you are recorded as 3having said. 4A.
[Mr Irving]
It is very difficult just on the basis of the catalogue 5that they are going to leave your Lordship with. 6MR JUSTICE GRAY: I have not yet digested what I am being 7presented with because I have not seen these. 8MR RAMPTON: What your Lordship is being presented with is, in 9effect, our selection of those passages all from 10Mr Irving's own documents and his own words -- nobody 11else's words, just his own words -- of those passages 12which best represent -- they are by no means exhaustive -- 13what we say is Mr Irving's underlying frame of mind. This 14is the only neat way we could think of doing it without 15scuttling about from one file to another and from one page 16within the file to another. 17 Mr Irving is a very wordy person and many of 18these transcripts are very long. 19MR JUSTICE GRAY: I think I did ask at an earlier stage for a 20marked up version and I have now got that. 21MR RAMPTON: You did, and your Lordship has three things. 22First of all, the original unvarnished speeches, etc. etc. 23in the various D files. Then your Lordship has what your 24Lordship first asked for which is a marked up copy of the 25important passages in those files, but those have now been 26transferred into the other two files. Finally, what has

. P-80

1happened is that for ease of reference and to make 2everybody's life simple, we have extracted those passages 3on which we rely. It is as simple as that. 4MR JUSTICE GRAY: And that is that, is it? 5MR RAMPTON: And that is that. This is going to be a long job 6anyway. 7A.
[Mr Irving]
Well, let us see how we proceed, my Lord, is probably the 8answer, but I have waved a little red flag. 9MR JUSTICE GRAY: If you find yourself in difficulties, then 10just say so. 11A.
[Mr Irving]
It is not the difficulties, my Lord, it is the little 12catalogue of excerpts, the manipulation that is going on, 13that concerns me. 14Q.
[Mr Justice Gray]
Well, let us wait and see whether that is right or wrong. 15A.
[Mr Irving]
If I were to do this with my books, I would be in deep 16trouble and justifiably so. 17MR RAMPTON: Can I start on the first page of the text of this, 18please, under the heading "Anti-Semitism, the Holocaust", 19subheading -- these are our headings, I hasten to add, not 20yours. "Jewish responsibility for anti-Semitism pogroms, 21Holocaust". 22 On 12th July 1997, your action report, "A 23Radical's Diary" is recorded as having expressed this 24thought ---- 25A.
[Mr Irving]
What page are we on? 26Q.
[Mr Rampton]
It is page 3 at the bottom of the page. Every single one

. P-81

1of these passages is referenced. Top of the page, I think 2it has a 11/A in square brackets. 3A.
[Mr Irving]
What bundle am I supposed to be looking at? 4MR JUSTICE GRAY: This little one, I think. 5MR RAMPTON: It is a small quote. Some of them, I am afraid, 6are much longer. If you would not mind looking at the 7little bundle? 8MR JUSTICE GRAY: I am sure he has it. Have you got this, 9Mr Irving? 10A.
[Mr Irving]
I do not think so. 11MR RAMPTON: My Lord, Mr Irving was given one. 12MR JUSTICE GRAY: Was he? Anyway, he has another one. 13A.
[Mr Irving]
I strongly object to this kind of excerpting. You are 14taking a sentence out of, I do not know what, a long 15article or a speech or something. 16MR JUSTICE GRAY: We can look at them. We have them here. But 17let Mr Rampton ask his question and then we will look at 18the context. 19MR RAMPTON: Mr Irving, can I suggest that every time you think 20we have tried to distort the record ---- 21A.
[Mr Irving]
"Manipulate" is the word I used. 22Q.
[Mr Rampton]
Yes, great, "manipulate the record" -- I must remember 23that -- for the purposes of presenting a skewed picture to 24the court, please mark beside whichever quote I refer to 25"check" because then when you reexamine yourself you can 26show his Lordship how bad our manipulation has been.

. P-82

1A.
[Mr Irving]
Can I ask that each time we open the full speech first and 2then find what you are taking the excerpt from? 3MR JUSTICE GRAY: No, Mr Evans, but what we can do is have 4Mr Rampton ask his question and if part of your answer is, 5"Oh, well, you have taken it out of context, then we will 6look". I think that is the right way of proceeding. 7MR RAMPTON: But you have plenty of time to check whether we 8have taken it out of context, Mr Irving. The full 9speeches are in those two files. 10A.
[Mr Irving]
Well, this is going to be a very long procedure. 11MR JUSTICE GRAY: Right. Let us make a start. 12MR RAMPTON: Yes, but I would rather you did not do it. Let me 13say this, I take it that every single extract that I ask 14you about you will preface your answer (and so let us take 15it as pregnant preface) with the answer, "Ah, yes, but 16you must look at the context", all right? Can we proceed 17on that basis because if you reply in that way every 18single time, we really are going to be here until the cows 19come home. 20MR JUSTICE GRAY: Mr Rampton, I am bound to say -- I am sorry, 21this debate is going on and on -- I do think if he says in 22relation to any of your questions, "Well, yes, that is 23what I said but look at what I said immediately 24afterwards", he must be entitled to make that part of his 25answer to you. 26MR RAMPTON: Of course, if he wishes to do so.

. P-83

1MR JUSTICE GRAY: Yes, right. 2MR RAMPTON: Let me take the first one on this page 3, may I, 3Mr Irving? This is your action report No. 12, I think, of 4July 1997. The reference is given if you want to look at 5it. "Why are they [the Jews] so blind that they cannot 6see the linkage between cause and effect? They protest, 7what, us? when people accuse them of international 8conspiracy. They clamour, 'Ours, ours, ours' when hoards 9of gold are uncovered and then when anti-Semitism 10increases and the inevitable mindless pogroms occur, they 11ask with genuine surprise, why us?" 12 Mr Irving, is that a fair quote in the context 13from ---- 14A.
[Mr Irving]
Can I read the two paragraphs before that? 15Q.
[Mr Rampton]
Yes, please do. 16A.
[Mr Irving]
To set it in context: "Three hours work today on 17discovery", that is for this action two years ago already, 18"compiling exhaustive files for my papers for my libel 19actions, my archive files on the Judenfrage, the Jewish 20problem. Depressing. 21 "There is an item in today's Jewish Chronicle 22which reports that, according to a study by the University 23of Tel Aviv, anti-Semitic incidents everywhere are on the 24decline. There has been an 8.1 per cent decline in 25Britain over the 12 month period to the end of 1996. 26 "There are two significant exceptions, however.

. P-84

1An increase in anti-Semitic propaganda in Switzerland 2during 1996 was generated by 'Jewish claims for the return 3of money and of the property of Holocaust victims or their 4heirs'. The other exception is Australia 'where there was 5a 12 per cent rise over the previous year'." 6 I then continue with the passage that you have 7put before his Lordship which is the conclusion to be 8drawn from this fact, that in Australia -- "In fact, 9Australia today is on fire about me again, about my not 10being allowed into the country. The Prime Minister of 11Australia this morning has criticised me. This kind of 12thing generates the anti-Semitism in countries", and this 13is precisely what this is about. 14Q.
[Mr Rampton]
You do not see anything in what I have just read which 15might account for the Australians' unwillingness to have 16you on their shores? 17A.
[Mr Irving]
On the contrary, this is saying cause and effect. Why is 18there increasing anti-Semitism in Switzerland today when 19it is going down everywhere else in the world? Answer, we 20know why. Why is there anti-Semitism today in Australia 21today? Answer, we know why. 22Q.
[Mr Rampton]
But you are adopting it, are you not? You are saying the 23anti-Semitism is justified on account of the fact that the 24Jews are greedy? 25A.
[Mr Irving]
Did I say justified or explicable? Is there a subtle 26difference there, do you think?

. P-85

1Q.
[Mr Rampton]
We will read the next passage, Mr Irving. 2MR JUSTICE GRAY: I cannot find the reference. K4, tab 10, 3page 60. 4MR RAMPTON: At 1. 5A.
[Mr Irving]
This is a typical example of something being taken out of 6context and the word "explicable" being changed into 7"justifiable". This is a typical manipulation. 8Q.
[Mr Rampton]
If you say so, Mr Irving. It is going to get worse, I am 9afraid. Can we read the next passage? This is rather a 10long passage so perhaps you would like to have a look? 11This is taken from your interview with Errol Morris on 8th 12November 1998. 13 My Lord, the passage in the file is at page 60 14of tab 10. 60 is written in the round circle. It is at 15the bottom of the left-hand column of page 22 of the 16action report. 17MR JUSTICE GRAY: Is this your second one? 18MR RAMPTON: No, that is first one your Lordship was asking 19after. 20MR JUSTICE GRAY: Yes, I did find it. I am sorry. I have it 21now. 22MR RAMPTON: This comes from, if you want the reference, 23Mr Irving, pages 25 to 27. 24A.
[Mr Irving]
I have it. I have the full text in front of me. Once 25again you left off the opening passage which explains what 26I am saying.

. P-86

1Q.
[Mr Rampton]
Which opening passage? 2A.
[Mr Irving]
You begun half way down the paragraph of what I said. 3Q.
[Mr Rampton]
I will read the whole thing if it bothers you. 4MR JUSTICE GRAY: Mr Irving, I have just read the opening part 5of that paragraph. It makes no difference at all to what 6is relied on, I do not think, does it? 7A.
[Mr Irving]
No, what I am saying is if somebody calls me a liar, which 8frequently happens, especially in this courtroom, even 9when I am on oath, I shrug my shoulders. 10Q.
[Mr Justice Gray]
And then you contrast that with the Jewish reaction? 11A.
[Mr Irving]
And I contrast that with the sensitivity of the Jewish 12community. When they are called liars, then suddenly all 13the force and majesty of the law is called in and you are 14invited to go before the Magistrate and all the rest of 15it, and this generates anti-Semitism, in my view. 16MR RAMPTON: Well, Mr Irving, I am going look at something 17which I suggest is a massive exercise in the generation of 18anti-Semitism. It is you speaking at line 39 on page 25 19of the file. 20 You see: "It is certainly is inexcusable. 21Every country, every people, particularly the Jewish 22people, I think are robust enough to survive the knocks, 23to survive the insults, to survive the impugning of their 24integrity". So far so good. 25 "If somebody says to me, 'David Irving, I think 26you are a liar', I shrug my shoulders and say, 'So, so

. P-87

1what? You are entitled to your opinion'. But if somebody 2says to the Jewish community, 'Jewish community, we think 3you are a liar', suddenly the jail doors are swung open 4and people say, 'This way, come on, you have called them a 5liar'" ---- 6A.
[Mr Irving]
Like Karl Philip, for example, fined 3,000 deutschemarks 7for some utterance. That is precisely the example, and 8that generates anti-Semitism, in my view. 9Q.
[Mr Rampton]
Yes, "... and this I think does harm to the Jewish people 10in the long run because the non-Jewish people will say, 11'What is it about these people?' Irving: I am deeply 12concerned about this and I have said this to people 13like Daniel Goldhagen who I challenged to the debate at a 14meeting in New Orleans a few months ago. I said, 'You 15have written a book called Hitler's Willing Executioners. 16You have talked to us this evening at great length about 17who pulled the trigger, but the question which would 18concern me if I was a Jew is not who'" ---- 19A.
[Mr Irving]
"If I were a Jew". 20Q.
[Mr Rampton]
--- "'pulled the trigger, but why? Why are we disliked? 21Is it something we are doing? I am disliked. Dave Irving 22is disliked. I know that because of the books I write. 23I could be instantly disliked by writing. I could become 24instantly liked by writing other books. You people'", by 25which, of course, you mean the Jews, "'are disliked on a 26global scale. You have been disliked for 3,0000 years and

. P-88

1yet you never to seem to ask what is at the root'", 2misspelt, "'of this dislike. You pretend that you are not 3disliked but you are disliked. No sooner do you arrive as 4a people in a new country, then within 50 years you are 5already being disliked all over again. Now what is it? 6And I do not know the answer to this. Is it built into 7our microchip? When a people arrive who call themselves 8the Jews, you will dislike them? Is there something in 9our microchip? Is it in our microchip that we do not like 10the way they look? Is it envy because they are more 11successful than us? I do not know the answer, but if 12I was a Jew, I would want to know what the reason is why 13I am being disliked, and not just disliked in a kind of 14nudge, nudge, wink, wink, he is not very nice kind of sort 15of way, but we are being disliked on a visceral, gut 16wrenching, murderous level, that no sooner do we arrive 17than we are being massacred and beaten and brutalized and 18imprisoned until we have to move on somewhere else. What 19is the reason? I would want to know the answer to that, 20and nobody carries out an investigation about that". 21 Then I have to go on: "(Interviewer) What would 22you say the reason is? (Irving) I am just looking at this 23as an outsider; I come from Mars and I would say they are 24clever people. I am a racist, I would say they are a 25clever race. I would say that, as a race, they are better 26at making money than I am". That is a racist remark, of

. P-89

1course, Mr Irving. It is worthy of Dr Joseph Goebbels, is 2it not? 3A.
[Mr Irving]
Now then, you are taking words here and you are putting 4your own intonation on them: "If I am a racist, then 5I would say these things, I say things in a racist kind of 6way -- there are better people than us, they play the 7violin better, they make money better than us and this 8would generate my envy". 9Q.
[Mr Rampton]
"But they appear to be better at making money", you repeat 10yourself, "than I am". 11A.
[Mr Irving]
That is right, I am putting myself in a position of the 12critics. I am trying to find reasons why people are 13anti-Semetic. I am talking here to a television 14interviewer. We are investigating the reasons why people 15may become anti-Semetic in my own rather clumsy and 16incoherent way. We are trying to find what makes people 17anti-Semetic. Is it because the Jews are better than us? 18Is it because they play the violin or the piano better 19than us, better at making money than us or is there 20something built into our microchip? 21Q.
[Mr Rampton]
Yes, Mr Irving. 22A.
[Mr Irving]
I think this is a very coherent expression of the whole 23anti-Semitic tragedy, that nobody knows what it is that 24makes people dislike foreigners, the xenophobia that is 25inside every human being. 26MR JUSTICE GRAY: That sentence (I do not know whether

. P-90

1Mr Rampton has read it yet or not), you say: "If I was 2going to be crude, I would say not only are they better at 3making money but they are greedy", that is you, Mr Irving, 4saying the Jews are greedy, is that right, or have I 5misunderstood? 6A.
[Mr Irving]
No, this is the two or three levels down in the argument, 7my Lord; this is putting myself into the skin of a person 8who is asking questions about those clever people. There 9should be triple quotation marks around this. 10MR RAMPTON: Oh, no, Mr Irving, that will not do; that is 11another rash and hasty ---- 12A.
[Mr Irving]
If you read on, you will see exactly why we are talking 13about the Swiss gold business. 14Q.
[Mr Rampton]
I am going to read on, Mr Irving. That is exactly why 15I said it was a rather rash answer. 16A.
[Mr Irving]
This is precisely the moment when Abraham Foxman and the 17Jewish newspaper 'Forward' have said: "Sure, we 18bludgeoned them until they had parted with the money". 19That was his headline: "Yes, we bludgeoned them". This 20is the kind of thing that generates anti-Semitism as 21witnessed what happened in Switzerland. 22Q.
[Mr Rampton]
So every time there is a pogrom or a machine gunning into 23a pit, or a mass gassing, it is entirely the Jews' fault 24because some of them make money and some of them are good 25at the piano, is that right, and some of them are clever? 26A.
[Mr Irving]
I regard that a very childish oversimplification of what

. P-91

1I have tried to set out in two paragraphs there. 2Q.
[Mr Rampton]
It is just exactly what you have been telling ---- 3A.
[Mr Irving]
It is a childish oversimplification. I am confronting 4Daniel Goldhagen who is a very clever writer and who has 5written a whole book on Hitler's willing executioners 6asking the question: "Who pulled the trigger?", and I am 7attending a meeting, in fact, in a synagogue in New 8Orleans, November two years ago. I am the first person 9who is allowed to ask him a question and I say to him -- 10these are the questions I asked him and I am repeating the 11questions I have actually said to him and you will also 12find that in my Radical's diary; the whole of this episode 13is also there --- Professor Goldhagen, a very interesting 14book you have written. Of course, it caused a great 15sensation around the world in May 1996, but the question 16you have asked is the wrong question. If I were a Jew, 17the question that would interest me is not who pulled the 18trigger but why, and why does it keep on happening again 19and again and again and why does nobody investigate that 20phenomenon, the phenomenon of where does anti-Semitism 21come from? 22Q.
[Mr Rampton]
Your thesis, Mr Irving, is perfectly clear and will become 23clearer and clearer as we go through these extracts. 24A.
[Mr Irving]
So what is my thesis? 25Q.
[Mr Rampton]
Your thesis is that the Jews have deserved everything that 26has been coming to them?

. P-92

1A.
[Mr Irving]
That is totally different; the difference between 2justification and explanation, already made once earlier 3this afternoon, to say that something is explicable is 4totally different from what I am saying, that it is 5justifiable. Nowhere have I ever (and I would find it 6repugnant if anyone suggested this) heard suggested that 7what happened to the Jewish people, that that tragedy is 8justifiable; it is not justifiable. But anti-Semitism, as 9a different phenomenon, you can begin to explain it; you 10can say that if somebody acts like Abraham Foxman and 11bludgeons the country like the Swiss in departing with 12billions of pounds of money, then it must not be 13surprising if it turns out that Switzerland is one of the 14few countries in the world where anti-Semitism increases. 15There is, surely, a cause-and-effect connection between 16those two facts. 17 If I were Daniel Goldhagen, or his father, the 18famous Professor Goldhagen, I would want to investigate 19that phenomenon rather than the rather more mundane 20phenomenon of which gangsters actually pulled the 21trigger on those sub-machine guns. 22Q.
[Mr Rampton]
Does one swallow, or to use something more akin to your 23terminology, one vulture, does one swallow or vulture make 24a summer, Mr Irving? 25A.
[Mr Irving]
I do not understand that question. 26Q.
[Mr Rampton]
Mr Irving, you have used one case to characterize the

. P-93

1whole of the Jewish people, wherever in the world, as 2greedy and, therefore, as having brought anti-Semitism on 3themselves. 4A.
[Mr Irving]
Did I say this was the only instance? 5Q.
[Mr Rampton]
I have your words in black and white in front of me. 6A.
[Mr Irving]
I do not think so; I think this is a pattern, 7unfortunately, which is repeated again and again. These 8whole page advertisements around the world which you 9yourself have undoubtedly seen, and which I can certainly 10introduce if you have not seen them, where it states: 11"You can get money, too; you do not have to have been in 12a concentration camp, you did not even have to have been a 13slave labourer. It suffices if you are a member of a 14minority persecuted by the Nazis living within the Third 15Reich, you can get money out of it". This generates 16anti-Semitism, in my view. I may be totally wrong; maybe 17anti-Semitism comes from somewhere else. 18MR JUSTICE GRAY: Mr Irving, may I just ask you a question 19about the interview you gave in November 1998? 20A.
[Mr Irving]
November 1998? 21Q.
[Mr Justice Gray]
The one you have just been asked about? 22A.
[Mr Irving]
This actually was August 1998, I think. 23Q.
[Mr Justice Gray]
Right. It may be wrongly dated. But I just want to get 24the sort of structure of what you are conveying to your 25interviewer. You are saying of the Jews, well, they have 26been disliked for 3,000 years, they are disliked wherever

. P-94

1they go? 2A.
[Mr Irving]
Yes. 3Q.
[Mr Justice Gray]
Then you say: "Well, I do not know the answer". 4A.
[Mr Irving]
Well, I do not -- I am not ---- 5Q.
[Mr Justice Gray]
Pause. Am I right so far? 6A.
[Mr Irving]
You are absolutely right, yes. 7Q.
[Mr Justice Gray]
But then do you not go on to say ---- 8A.
[Mr Irving]
I venture a suggestion. 9Q.
[Mr Justice Gray]
Well, look at it at as if I came from Mars"? 10A.
[Mr Irving]
I tried to stand right back from the planet Earth and look 11down on these people. 12Q.
[Mr Justice Gray]
"And it appears to me that the reason why they are 13disliked is because they are greedy"; is that not what you 14are saying? 15A.
[Mr Irving]
I go on to a whole series of different reasons. 16Q.
[Mr Justice Gray]
All right, but that is the first one you come up with? 17A.
[Mr Irving]
I say globally I do not know what the reason is. 18Effectively, I am not a sociologist, I am not an expert on 19this, but possible reasons are -- what is the connection 20between the rise in Swiss anti-Semitism and the gold bank 21business? 22Q.
[Mr Justice Gray]
But you are putting that forward as the reason why there 23is this dislike of Jews? 24A.
[Mr Irving]
My Lord, with respect, not the reason. 25Q.
[Mr Justice Gray]
All right. 26A.
[Mr Irving]
One contributing reason -- one contributing reason at this

. P-95

1moment in time. 2Q.
[Mr Justice Gray]
I see. I just want to get it clear. 3A.
[Mr Irving]
But I also suggest very strongly it may be built into our 4microchip, as I put it. It may be part of the endemic 5human xenophobia which exists in all of us and which 6civilized people like your Lordship and myself manage to 7suppress, and other people like the gentleman on the 8Eastern Front with the submachine guns cannot suppress. 9MR RAMPTON: Mr Irving, before we proceed any further, I think 10you might be advised to have a look at your own diary, if 11you would not mind? 12A.
[Mr Irving]
Well, you have had 50 million words of my diaries to look 13at. 14Q.
[Mr Rampton]
Yes. Aren't we fortunate? 15A.
[Mr Irving]
Well, I think discovery on a scale like this contrasts 16very severely with the discovery that your own instructing 17clients have made. 18Q.
[Mr Rampton]
Yes, Mr Irving, good point. 19A.
[Mr Irving]
Sarcasm is, perhaps, not called for. 20Q.
[Mr Rampton]
38, please, Mr Irving -- no, indeed not, when you look at 21this. 22MR JUSTICE GRAY: 38? 23MR RAMPTON: 38 of tab 10 of the bundle K4, my Lord. It is 24page 36 of the extract bundle. This is Irving speaking to 25Irving. This is not Irving punting some thesis about 26Jewish culpability to the television audience. I want you

. P-96

1to look at the last part of the entry for September 17th 21994 which was a Saturday. 3A.
[Mr Irving]
I am looking at the wrong page. 4Q.
[Mr Rampton]
Page 38 of the bundle, tab 10. 5A.
[Mr Irving]
Tab 10? 6Q.
[Mr Rampton]
Of K4? 7MR JUSTICE GRAY: Is it in your ---- 8A.
[Mr Irving]
Yes. 9MR JUSTICE GRAY: --- selection? 10MR RAMPTON: This is a typed or printed page. 11A.
[Mr Irving]
Yes. 12Q.
[Mr Rampton]
Some of it has underlines and italics? 13A.
[Mr Irving]
The underlinings are not from me. 14Q.
[Mr Rampton]
"A quiet evening at home", etc, "Jessica", who is Jessica? 15A.
[Mr Irving]
My little infant child. 16Q.
[Mr Rampton]
Yes. 17A.
[Mr Irving]
At this time she was nine months old at this time. 18Q.
[Mr Rampton]
Nine months old in September 1994. "Jessica is turning 19into a fine little lady. She sits very upright on an 20ordinary chair. Her strong back muscles, a product of our 21regular walks in my arms to the bank, etc., I am sure. On 22those walks we sing the binkety-bankety-bong song. There 23are two other poems in which she stars: 'My name is baby 24Jessica. I have got a pretty dressica, but now it is in a 25messica' and, more scurrilously, when half breed children 26are wheeled past" and then you go into italics, "'I am a

. P-97

1baby Aryan, not Jewish or sectarian. I have no plans to 2marry an ape or a Rastafarian"? 3A.
[Mr Irving]
Yes. 4Q.
[Mr Rampton]
Racist, Mr Irving? Anti-Semitic Mr Irving, yes? 5A.
[Mr Irving]
I do not think so. 6Q.
[Mr Rampton]
Teaching your little child this kind of poison? 7A.
[Mr Irving]
Do you think that a nine month old can understand words 8spoken in English or any other language? 9Q.
[Mr Rampton]
I will tell you something, Mr Irving, when I was 10six-months old, I said, "Pussy sits in the apple tree 11until she thinks it is time for tea"? 12MR JUSTICE GRAY: You were very precocious! 13MR RAMPTON: I was, but then I burned out at two! 14A.
[Mr Irving]
Yes. Perhaps I should set this in its context. The 15scurrilous magazine "Searchlight" (about which we will, no 16doubt, hear more) had just published a photograph of 17myself and Jessica and her mother, who is very blond and 18very beautiful, and it had sneered at us as being the 19"perfect Aryan family". 20Q.
[Mr Rampton]
They did not write this, you did? 21A.
[Mr Irving]
Yes, but this is my little private response to this rather 22nasty sneer ---- 23Q.
[Mr Rampton]
You wrote this on 17th September. 24A.
[Mr Irving]
Please do not interrupt me. This is my private response 25to this rather nasty smear by this magazine which has been 26giving me trouble ever since I had the man arrested for

. P-98

1breaking into my house 30 years earlier when he called my 2family a "perfect Aryan family" in a public magazine. So 3I sit with my infant child on my lap, humming a little 4song to her about us being a perfect Aryan. Do any other 5words upset you? 6Q.
[Mr Rampton]
What? 7A.
[Mr Irving]
Do any other words in the poem upset you apart from the 8"Aryan". 9Q.
[Mr Rampton]
No, no. It is the contrast. The poor little child has 10been taught a racist ---- 11A.
[Mr Irving]
Poor little child! She is a very happy child. 12Q.
[Mr Rampton]
--- ditty by her perverted racist father. 13A.
[Mr Irving]
Have you ever read Edward Lear or Hilliard Belloch? 14Q.
[Mr Rampton]
They have not brought a libel action complaining of being 15called a racist, Mr Irving. You have ---- 16A.
[Mr Irving]
I do not know if they have brought libel actions or not. 17Q.
[Mr Rampton]
Mr Irving, you sued because you said we called you a 18racist and an extremist? 19A.
[Mr Irving]
Yes, but I am not a racist. 20Q.
[Mr Rampton]
Mr Irving, look at the words on the page. 21A.
[Mr Irving]
Mr Rampton, are you accusing me of racism, in other words, 22looking down on ethnic minorities? 23Q.
[Mr Rampton]
Oh, yes. 24A.
[Mr Irving]
Well, how is it behind you in the entire four weeks we 25have been here today I have not seen a single coloured 26member on the team behind you, when I have employed

. P-99

1coloured people of ethnic minorities on my staff and, so 2far as I can see, not you or your instructing solicitor 3have employed one such person. 4MR JUSTICE GRAY: Now, shall we have a little pause? I do not 5think that is a very helpful intervention. 6A.
[Mr Irving]
I think it is very important to say that. It is the point 7where hypocrisy begins and dudgeon ends. 8MR RAMPTON: Mr Irving, you are condemned out of your own 9mouth, you see. That is the trouble. 10A.
[Mr Irving]
Well, I am condemned by what I say and you are condemned 11by what I see. Not once have you had a member of the 12ethnic minority working on your side. 13MR JUSTICE GRAY: Mr Irving, I just suggested that was not a 14very helpful intervention. Do not just repeat it. 15MR RAMPTON: I expect you are hoping the newspaper reporters 16are going to write it down, are you not, Mr Irving? 17A.
[Mr Irving]
I do not place much trust in the newspaper reporters. I 18can recognize hypocrisy when I see it. 19Q.
[Mr Rampton]
Let us go back in this same tab of the file to a diary 20entry for 10th November. That is a long way back. If you 21want to turn to page 17, you are in South Africa, 22Johannesburg, on November 10th 1987? 23MR JUSTICE GRAY: Page 17 of your extracts. 24MR RAMPTON: No, my Lord, I am trying to avoid accusations of 25manipulation. 26MR JUSTICE GRAY: Can you give me the references if they are

. P-100

1there? 2MR RAMPTON: Yes, it is page 41, I think of, I hope, the 3extracts bundle, my Lord. 4MR JUSTICE GRAY: Page 41. 5MR RAMPTON: Yes, it is the last entry on page 41 in my copy. 6I will read the whole of it because I do not want -- the 7entry on page 19, please, Mr Irving? 8A.
[Mr Irving]
What page am I supposed to be looking at? 9MR JUSTICE GRAY: Page 4, tab 10, page 19. 10A.
[Mr Irving]
Yes. 11MR RAMPTON: "Stayed in hotel all evening apart from a short 12walk down the street. Worked revising Goring in the 13foyer. The conservative newspapers of Johannesburg and 14Pretoria are full of my coming. Unfortunately, I have not 15left all my blue sheets and media and personal contacts in 16London. Around 8 p.m. ... (reading to the words) ... She 17is bristling a bit about some of my more blatant 18chauvinism; he talking most interestingly about the AIDS 19epidemic in black Africa. He says he thinks that the 20black population in all Africa will die out within a very 21short space of time". That was in 1987 -- poor man will 22have been disappointed. "He attributes the incredibly 23high AIDS" ---- 24A.
[Mr Irving]
On what do you base the conclusion he is going to be 25disappointed? 26MR JUSTICE GRAY: Let us read on. I think the trouble is with

. P-101

1interpolations, they ---- 2MR RAMPTON: "He attributes the incredibly high AIDS incidence 3among blacks to their sexual activity, few blacks, 4apparently, engaging in less than five sexual acts per 5night". Whose underline is that? 6A.
[Mr Irving]
It looks like mine. 7Q.
[Mr Rampton]
It does, does it not? "He says the astonishing sexual 8activity among black men accounts for why a large number 9of white female intellectuals and students like having 10black boyfriends which now, of course, they will regret. 11God works in mysterious ways, but here we agree he", that 12is God, not your mate Burridge, "appears to be working 13remorselessly towards a Final Solution which may cruelly 14wipe out, not only the blacks and homosexuals, but a large 15part of the drug addicts and sexually promiscuous and 16indiscriminate heterosexual population as well." 17 Not racist, Mr Irving? 18A.
[Mr Irving]
What is racist about that? 19Q.
[Mr Rampton]
You are hoping that God is going to complete his long term 20plan, his Endlosung, his Final Solution, and wipe outline 21all the blacks as well as the homosexuals and everybody 22else? 23A.
[Mr Irving]
What a totally perverse spin you have put on that diary 24passage. I am a religious man. When I see things 25happening, I see God's hand in everything that is 26happening. When I see God inflicting a plague like this

. P-102

1on Africa, I ask myself what the possible explanation for 2it can be. I am talking to a medical expert, who is a 3medical expert from Swaziland, who is describing to me 4what I did not know, I had never heard of at that time. 5I know a great deal more about the AIDS, the incidence of 6AIDS, among the native population of Africa. At this time 7it was total news to me and he told me, and it undoubtedly 8is true, that it is cutting a swathe right through the 9native populations of the whole of the African Continent, 10and we are musing about the strange way that God works in. 11Q.
[Mr Rampton]
So God, like you, would have used capital F, Final, 12capital S, Solution, would he, just as Hitler, no doubt, 13was God's instrument in applying that to the Jews? Is 14that right, capital F ---- 15A.
[Mr Irving]
It is obvious I am referring to the Final Solution in the 16Aryan sense there, yes. 17Q.
[Mr Rampton]
Do you think God ---- 18A.
[Mr Irving]
But you will not find in that sentence the slightest trace 19of approval of what is going on there. I think this is 20another of these enormous human tragedies. 21Q.
[Mr Rampton]
Do you think, and I do not want ---- 22A.
[Mr Irving]
And to suggest that I approved of what was done to the 23Jews or to suggest that I am approving here of what is 24happening to the wretched black population of Africa is 25perverse and repugnant. 26Q.
[Mr Rampton]
It is God working remorselessly towards his capital F,

. P-103

1Final, capital S, Solution, so far as the blacks etc. are 2concerned ---- 3A.
[Mr Irving]
You cannot find in any of that passage any hint of 4approval from me of what is happening. 5Q.
[Mr Rampton]
I see. 6A.
[Mr Irving]
It is -- I am listening aghast to what the doctor is 7telling me about what I had never heard of before, namely 8the incidence of AIDS in the black population of Uganda 9and Swaziland and the southern African Continent. 10Q.
[Mr Rampton]
Now I would like to look at something else, please. Tab 5 11of this file, pages 10 to 11. This is your talk to the 12Clarendon Club ---- 13A.
[Mr Irving]
While we were on that previous African tour, it is a pity 14you did not leave in the pages of the diary which referred 15to my visit to Soweto township where we picked up several 16black people in our car -- this was at the height of the 17troubles -- and drove around Soweto with these five blacks 18sitting in our car allowing -- to show us around the whole 19of their township because I was very interested in their 20problems, but, unfortunately, you took those pages out. 21Q.
[Mr Rampton]
Do you agree with me, Mr Irving, that one sometimes gets a 22better insight into a person's true thoughts and feelings 23when one reads them written in his private diary than in a 24speech, for example? 25A.
[Mr Irving]
Oh, yes. These diaries are not intended for publication 26and you have been very fortunate to have them. 50 million

. P-104

1words have been placed at your disposal. 2Q.
[Mr Rampton]
No, thank you, Mr Irving. People who bring libel actions 3have to make discovery. It is as simple as that. 4A.
[Mr Irving]
And I have had no objection whatsoever. I attach the 5proper conditions to it and I said you can have access to 6my entire private diaries and telephone logs and 7everything. So far this is all you have found. 8Q.
[Mr Rampton]
Can we turn to tab 5 in this one? This is something, my 9Lord, that is not copied into the extract. 10MR JUSTICE GRAY: Is not? 11MR RAMPTON: It is in your Lordship's but not in mine. 12MR JUSTICE GRAY: Can you give me the reference in mine? 13MR RAMPTON: I cannot, no, because I have not got it -- page 1435, 2/D. 15MR JUSTICE GRAY: Thank you. 16MR RAMPTON: Mr Irving, I am going to read the full entry in 17this which is a talk I think you gave to the Clarendon 18Club, whatever that may be, on 19th September 1992, as you 19can see from the beginning of the tab. After some 20applause you say this: "For the last four weeks just for 21once I have gone away from London, where I have been 22sitting, down in Torquay, which is a white community. We 23saw perhaps one black man and one coloured family in the 24whole time I was down there. I am not anti-coloured, take 25it from me; nothing pleases me more than when I arrive at 26an airport, or a station, or a seaport" ----

. P-105

1A.
[Mr Irving]
Can you tell me what page you are, please? 2MR JUSTICE GRAY: I am lost too. 3MR RAMPTON: 10 of 13 at the top of the page. I will start the 4paragraph again. 5A.
[Mr Irving]
The bit about I am not anti-coloured, right? 6Q.
[Mr Rampton]
Yes. I read the previous paragraph. "I am not 7anti-coloured, take it from me; nothing pleases me more 8than when I arrive at an airport, or a station, or a 9seaport, and I see a coloured family there - the black 10father, the black wife and the black children. I think it 11is just as handsome a spectacle as the English family, or 12the French family, or the German family, or the South 13African family ... (reading to the words)... I think that 14is the way that God planned it and that is the way it 15should be. When I see these families arriving at the 16airport I am happy (and when I see them leaving at London 17airport I am happy)". Well, Mr Irving, well, Mr Irving? 18A.
[Mr Irving]
It reminds me of a bumper sticker I saw in a car in Durban 19which said, "Welcome to Durban, now go away". I think we 20all dislike tourists of any colour. 21MR JUSTICE GRAY: These are black tourists though, that is the 22point. 23MR RAMPTON: Tourists? These are black people ---- 24A.
[Mr Irving]
Yes. 25Q.
[Mr Rampton]
--- you are talking about, and your statement, "i am not 26an anti-coloured, take it from me", was a cynical little

. P-106

1joke? 2A.
[Mr Irving]
I do not agree. I am not anti-coloured. This was the 3cynical little joke at the end because you will notice 4that the first bit did not get the laughter. It was the 5cynical little joke at the end that got the laughter. 6Q.
[Mr Rampton]
Yes, "... and when I see them leaving" ---- 7A.
[Mr Irving]
Right, so that was recognized as being the joke. 8Q.
[Mr Rampton]
"When I see them leaving at London airport I am happy. 9[Cheers and Laughter]". You were speaking to a bunch of 10fellow racists who would like to clear these islands of 11all their black people? 12A.
[Mr Irving]
On what information do you base the knowledge of what the 13audience was ---- 14Q.
[Mr Rampton]
Otherwise you would not have got cheers and laughter; you 15would have been bundled out ---- 16MR JUSTICE GRAY: I think it is a question. It is a question. 17Were you speaking to a bunch of racists? 18A.
[Mr Irving]
Was I -- no, I was not. No, they were perfectly 19ordinary ---- 20MR RAMPTON: Why were there cheers? 21A.
[Mr Irving]
Well, they obviously liked the jokes that I said. They 22liked the way that I told the joke at the end. 23Q.
[Mr Rampton]
If you had been speaking to a normal audience of 24non-racist people and you had said something like that, 25you would have been chucked out on your ear, Mr Irving. 26A.
[Mr Irving]
Mr Rampton, you can take it from me, I am less racist than

. P-107

1yourself probably as witnessed the people that I employ. 2Q.
[Mr Rampton]
All right. I am going to read on. "But if there is one 3thing that gets up my nose, I must admit, it is this -- 4the way ... the thing is when I am down in Torquay and 5I switch on my television set and I see one of them" -- 6"one of them" -- "reading our news to us". Now, who is 7the "them" and who is the "us"? 8A.
[Mr Irving]
Trevor McDonald. 9Q.
[Mr Rampton]
No, "one of them"? 10A.
[Mr Irving]
Well, in fact, this is a stock speech I used to make. 11I used to -- it was a debating speech I would deliver to 12university audiences. I would start off by talking about 13having our people, the God old days, Lord Reith, the 14announcer wearing his dinner jack, you knew the people 15behind the camera were actually wearing dinner jackets too 16on Royal occasions, but now in the gradual drumming down 17of television, they have women reading the news and they 18have -- it is part of a general speech I used to deliver 19and I used to say ---- 20MR JUSTICE GRAY: The question, I think before you go 21further ---- 22A.
[Mr Irving]
I am trying to set the ---- 23Q.
[Mr Justice Gray]
--- was what did you mean -- listen to the question ---- 24A.
[Mr Irving]
Yes. 25Q.
[Mr Justice Gray]
--- what did you mean by "them", not what did you mean by 26"one". What did you mean by "them" and "us"? What is

. P-108

1the answer to that? 2A.
[Mr Irving]
As you say, I go on straightaway, I talk about women. 3MR RAMPTON: Right. Wait a minute. We are coming on, 4Mr Irving. You have rambled on without reading the text, 5unfortunately. 6A.
[Mr Irving]
Well, that is the clear answer. The very next sentence 7says ---- 8Q.
[Mr Rampton]
No, Mr Irving, we are going to read on. 9A.
[Mr Irving]
I do admit to chauvinism. 10Q.
[Mr Rampton]
"It is our news and they're reading it to me"? 11A.
[Mr Irving]
That is right. 12Q.
[Mr Rampton]
If I was ---- 13A.
[Mr Irving]
It is male news and it should be read to us by men 14wearing ---- 15Q.
[Mr Rampton]
Mr Irving, will you please be patient? 16A.
[Mr Irving]
--- dinner jackets and ---- 17Q.
[Mr Rampton]
We are going to read quite a lot of this. Please. 18MR JUSTICE GRAY: Mr Irving, please. Can I just ask one other 19question because I am puzzled, and I want to make sure 20I understand what you are conveying. When you were asked 21what was meant by that passage, you said the "one" was 22Trevor McDonald ---- 23A.
[Mr Irving]
Yes, because ---- 24Q.
[Mr Justice Gray]
--- but you then said that the "them" was women. 25A.
[Mr Irving]
Well, we come to ---- 26Q.
[Mr Justice Gray]
Well, I do not understand.

. P-109

1A.
[Mr Irving]
--- oh, we come to Trevor McDonald over the page, I see, 2my Lord. I was jumping ahead of myself. He is three 3paragraphs on. 4MR RAMPTON: Trevor McDonald is one of us because, like me, he 5wears glasses, is that right -- one of them, rather? 6A.
[Mr Irving]
I am afraid I do not follow that. 7Q.
[Mr Rampton]
You said initially without thinking of your clever, clever 8"woman" answer, you said, "That is Trevor McDonald"? 9A.
[Mr Irving]
Well, this is a standard speech that I used to give as 10a standard gramaphone record. 11Q.
[Mr Rampton]
Why did you say that Trevor McDonald was one of them? 12A.
[Mr Irving]
Because I know what is coming. I know what is coming in 13the speech. 14Q.
[Mr Rampton]
What "them" is Trevor McDonald one of? 15A.
[Mr Irving]
Well, he is someone who is different from us. 16Q.
[Mr Rampton]
In what sense? He wears glasses? 17A.
[Mr Irving]
No, he speaks English better than you and I do ---- 18Q.
[Mr Rampton]
That is what you meant, is it? 19A.
[Mr Irving]
--- for example -- yes. 20Q.
[Mr Rampton]
He is one of them very good English speakers? 21A.
[Mr Irving]
This is a witty speech being delivered after dinner to an 22audience in a private club. 23Q.
[Mr Rampton]
"Wicked", Mr Irving? 24A.
[Mr Irving]
"Witty", not wicked. 25Q.
[Mr Rampton]
"Witty", did you say? 26A.
[Mr Irving]
Well, it got laughter.

. P-110

1Q.
[Mr Rampton]
Oh, yes -- just, no doubt, as Dr Goebbels' audience would 2have laughed at him. 3A.
[Mr Irving]
I used to deliver exactly the same speech to the 4University of Durham, Cambridge University Union Society 5-- no complaints from anyone. The women laughed loudest 6of all. 7Q.
[Mr Rampton]
Can we turn over the page to page 11 of 13. Can? 8A.
[Mr Irving]
But, of course, you are missing out the bits that help to 9set the tone of the kind of mood of the evening. 10Q.
[Mr Rampton]
I do not mind, Mr Irving. I want to finish this 11question before the adjournment. You do not like what is 12coming, I know, but I am going to do it very, very quickly 13so that I get my question in: "Because basically 14international news is a serious thing and I yearn for the 15old days of Lord Reith when the news reader on the BBC, 16which was the only channel in those times, wore a dinner 17jacket and bow tie and rose to the occasion. On great 18State occasions, one had the satisfaction of knowing not 19only that the news reader wearing the dinner jacket and 20the bow tie -- on great State occasions I think it was 21even a white tie that was called for -- but you had the 22satisfaction of knowing that the gentleman behind the 23camera was also wearing a dinner jacket. It gave a 24certain solid sense of satisfaction that all was well in 25the best", you should have said "all possible worlds" but 26it has got missed out, "but now we have women reading out

. P-111

1news to us"? 2A.
[Mr Irving]
"Now we have women reading out the news to us". 3Q.
[Mr Rampton]
Wait, Mr Irving, the good bit is coming. "If they could 4perhaps have their" ---- 5A.
[Mr Irving]
But this is setting the whole tone of it, you know, you 6are not enjoying this speech. 7Q.
[Mr Rampton]
"If they could perhaps have their own news which they were 8reading to us I suppose [Laughter], it would be very 9interesting. [Good-natured female heckling]". So far, 10Mr Irving, so good. "For the time being, for a 11transitional period, I would be prepared to accept that 12the BBC should have a dinner-jacketed gentleman reading 13the important news to us, followed by a lady reading all 14the less important news, followed by Trevor McDonald 15giving us all the latest news about the muggings and the 16drug busts - [rest lost in loud Laughter and Applause]". 17Are you not appalled by that? 18A.
[Mr Irving]
Not in the least. This is a funny after dinner speech in 19the spirit of any stand up comedian on the BBC. We have 20heard exactly the same comedy from the end of the pier in 21Brighton. It is exactly the same kind of speech, and if 22you find that -- even the black audience would not find 23something like offensive, believe me; and as for which of 24us two is the racist, I can only refer to the fact that I, 25unlike the members of the Defence team, employ ethnic 26minorities without the slightest hesitation ----

. P-112

1MR JUSTICE GRAY: Mr Irving, how many times do I need to tell 2you not to make that comment? It is inappropriate, 3futile ---- 4A.
[Mr Irving]
Well, if I am being accused of racism, my Lord, I 5think ---- 6Q.
[Mr Justice Gray]
--- and is doing your cause no good, I can assure you. 7A.
[Mr Irving]
If I am being accused or racism, I think it is highly 8relevant to find out that I employ ethnic minorities 9without the slightest hesitation. 10Q.
[Mr Justice Gray]
Well, it is my view that counts and I do not think it is 11says, so please do not say it again? 12MR RAMPTON: My Lord, what I would like to do with your 13Lordship's permission -- there is an awful lot of this -- 14I have got a very little way, and your Lordship can 15understand one reason why that is so -- what I would like 16to do is at 2 o'clock -- it will take a little bit of time 17to set up -- is show a video of one of Mr Irving's 18speeches at Tampa, Florida, on 6th October 1995 at a 19gathering of something called the National Alliance. 20MR JUSTICE GRAY: Right. We will do that at 2 o'clock. 21(Luncheon adjournment)22(2.00 p.m.)23A.
[Mr Irving]
May I first apologise for my unruly behaviour on the race 24matter. I should not have kept making that point. 25MR JUSTICE GRAY: Do not worry. I do appreciate that it is 26quite stressful. You have been being cross-examined for

. P-113

1quite a long time, but I think it is better unsaid. 2A.
[Mr Irving]
Secondly, in view of the fact that I was broadcasting to 3Australia at five this morning, may I sit during the 4film? 5MR JUSTICE GRAY: Of course. Sit any time during your 6evidence. 7MR RAMPTON: I hope that goes for me too so far as the film is 8concerned. My Lord, this is a video tape recording of a 9speech or talk, call it what one likes, by Mr Irving at 10Tampa, Florida, on 6th October 1995. The transcript, 11I think, is K3, tab 20. The plan is to do the beginning, 12and there is a specific reason for that, and then go to 13the section which your Lordship has in the extract at page 14page 14. 15MR JUSTICE GRAY: Thank you very much. 16A.
[Mr Irving]
My Lord, is there any reason why they are just showing 17this section and not the whole tape? 18MR RAMPTON: I do not mind. It takes an hour. I have 19absolutely no views about that at all, my Lord. 20MR JUSTICE GRAY: Why not watch the extract and then we can go 21on the written page to any other passage you want. 22A.
[Mr Irving]
Very well. 23MR RAMPTON: If it makes Mr Irving uncomfortable, I would much 24rather ---- 25MR JUSTICE GRAY: I am just concerned about time, Mr Irving. 26Explain to me why you want the whole thing shown.

. P-114

1A.
[Mr Irving]
Your Lordship will probably have glanced through it and 2you will have seen that---- 3Q.
[Mr Rampton]
No, I have not, actually. 4A.
[Mr Irving]
I am sorry. In fact, I remarked to one of Mr Rampton's 5instructing solicitors as I came upstairs in the elevator 6that I was astonished that they had chosen this particular 7video tape because that is precisely the one that I would 8have wanted shown. I had apprehended they were going to 9show the whole tape and not just a fragment. 10MR JUSTICE GRAY: I see. You think this in a way gives the 11flavour of the sort of speeches you were making? 12A.
[Mr Irving]
Unless they are intending showing lots of extracts from 13lots of speeches, then I would prefer one entire to be 14shown rather than just one fragment taken out of context. 15MR JUSTICE GRAY: If Mr Irving puts it like that, that in a way 16this would be a good sample speech, I am inclined to think 17he is entitled to have the whole thing played. 18MR RAMPTON: I quite agree. I have no feelings about that. 19Video is shown.2021 Break in video at this point.22A.
[Mr Irving]
I then leave the room so there is not much point in 23showing the rest of it. 24MR JUSTICE GRAY: I think there may be. 25MR RAMPTON: Yes. 26 (Video continued).

. P-115

1MR RAMPTON: There is a small break. 2A.
[Mr Irving]
That is when I then leave the room. 3MR JUSTICE GRAY: I think I know what the point is. 4MR RAMPTON: If your Lordship has the point in the transcript, 5then we do not need to see the tape because it is at the 6beginning of the transcript as well as the end. 7MR JUSTICE GRAY: We are stopping? 8MR RAMPTON: That will do, if your Lordship is satisfied that 9what I need is in the transcript. 10MR JUSTICE GRAY: You have laid the ground for a question. 11MR RAMPTON: Yes. Mr Irving, do you remember that earlier on 12in this case we asked you some written questions, or we 13requested some information? 14A.
[Mr Irving]
Yes. 15Q.
[Mr Rampton]
And do you remember that we asked you questions about the 16national alliance? 17A.
[Mr Irving]
Very clearly. I remember very clearly what answer I gave 18too. 19Q.
[Mr Rampton]
I asked you a number of questions, general and specific, 20about the national alliance. You gave some replies. My 21Lord, these are in bundle A, tab 8. Mr Irving should be 22handed bundle A, and he should turn to tab 8 where he gave 23some answers. If turn it to the seventh page -- have you 24got your answers, Mr Irving -- it is a document which 25calls itself "some answers". 26A.
[Mr Irving]
Yes.

. P-116

1Q.
[Mr Rampton]
If you turn to page 7 of those answers, you will find a 2page which begins with the answer number ---- 3A.
[Mr Irving]
Tab 9, that is correct. 4MR JUSTICE GRAY: Yes. 5MR RAMPTON: Tab 9. That is my fault. 23 and 25 are the 6relevant answers. You said this, Mr Irving: "I have no 7association with the body known to the Defendants as the 8National Alliance as such or whatsoever." 9A.
[Mr Irving]
What number are you? 10Q.
[Mr Rampton]
Number 23. "I have no association with the body known to 11the Defendants as the National Alliance as such or 12whatsoever". 13A.
[Mr Irving]
Yes. 14Q.
[Mr Rampton]
"I cannot rule out the members of that organization which 15I take to be a legal organization in the United States. 16They have attended functions at which I spoke. 17Accordingly I have no knowledge of, and I take no interest 18in what materials it publishes or distributes. I have no 19knowledge whatsoever of the character of the National 20Alliance other than what is now claimed by the witnesses 21for the Defendants nor of the publications which it is 22alleged to publish or advertise"? 23A.
[Mr Irving]
Yes. 24Q.
[Mr Rampton]
"I do not agree that I have spoken at any National 25Alliance meetings. It might be that on occasions a 26gentleman who was a member of the National Alliance

. P-117

1offered to organize a lecture for me. In other words he 2undertook to find a suitable room but I then circulated my 3entire local mailing list to provide an audience. No 4doubt he brought his friends as well. It will be seen 5that in all these photographs of these events which were 6produced at trial there is no kind of National Alliance 7presence"? 8A.
[Mr Irving]
Yes. 9Q.
[Mr Rampton]
Mr Irving, that was a false answer, was it not? 10A.
[Mr Irving]
Both answers are absolutely true. I draw your attention 11to the fact that your expert witness, Professor Evans, 12having read my entire diaries from start to finish, has 13lamented the fact that he has found not one single 14reference to the National Alliance. Am I correct? 15Q.
[Mr Rampton]
I have no idea what Professor Evans ---- 16A.
[Mr Irving]
I am telling you. That is the answer to your question. 17Q.
[Mr Rampton]
It is not the answer to my question by any manner of 18means, Mr Irving. We are going to show a film of you in a 19moment wearing a National Alliance -- never mind that. 20Look at the beginning of the tab? 21A.
[Mr Irving]
Do you wish to have that part struck off the record? 22Q.
[Mr Rampton]
No. It is a misunderstanding by me. I do not have things 23struck off the record. That happens in the United States, 24Mr Irving. 25A.
[Mr Irving]
There is a fragment of a sentence there about my wearing 26something.

. P-118

1MR JUSTICE GRAY: On we go. On we go. 2MR RAMPTON: On we go, Mr Irving. Tab 20, please, of K3, which 3is the transcript of this last film we have been 4watching. 5A.
[Mr Irving]
Oh, yes. 6Q.
[Mr Rampton]
Right at the beginning. Look at the beginning of it 7please, Mr Irving. 8A.
[Mr Irving]
Yes. 9Q.
[Mr Rampton]
"The first transcribed speech. Ladies and gentlemen, on 10behalf of the National Alliance and National Vanguard 11Books, I would like to proudly welcome Mr David Irving". 12A.
[Mr Irving]
Yes. 13Q.
[Mr Rampton]
You were not in the room at the time, of course? 14A.
[Mr Irving]
I was there at the time. 15Q.
[Mr Rampton]
On behalf of the National Alliance? 16A.
[Mr Irving]
It would have meant nothing whatsoever to me. There is no 17reason at all why I should have remembered that phrase. 18I have no idea what the National Alliance is. I still do 19not know what it is. If somebody introducing me says I am 20here on behalf of some legion of something or some 21alliance of something, it is instantly forgotten by me two 22minutes later. I was there at a meeting which had been 23organized with my mailing list and the evidence for that 24is in the following paragraph: "Ladies and gentlemen, 25there are few familiar faces here this evening". In other 26words, all my own friends off my own mailing list.

. P-119

1Q.
[Mr Rampton]
It would not be right to suggest that, including this 2meeting, you have attended no less than eight National 3Alliance events between 1990 and 1998? 4A.
[Mr Irving]
I have attended no events that have been organized, to my 5knowledge, as National Alliance events and, had I attended 6such events, then it would have been described as such in 7my private diaries, quite clearly. 8Q.
[Mr Rampton]
What do you think that was? 9A.
[Mr Irving]
This was a function which had been organized by an 10individual for me to attend and to which I had invited my 11entire Florida mailing list. 12Q.
[Mr Rampton]
"On behalf of the National Alliance and National Vanguard 13Books I would like to proudly welcome Mr David Irving"? 14A.
[Mr Irving]
He had a table there no doubt on which he was selling 15books. That was no doubt the return that he got. But 16I have no idea what the National Alliance is and 17I supposed 90 per cent of the people in this audience also 18have no idea what the National Alliance is. 19Q.
[Mr Rampton]
You were the ham in the sandwich between that man 20introducing you proudly on behalf of the National Alliance 21and another man after you spoke, who also spoke out on 22behalf of the National Alliance, Mr Irving. 23A.
[Mr Irving]
That may well be, but I repeat what I say. 99 per cent of 24the English public, of which I am a member, has not the 25slightest idea what the National Alliance is in the United 26States, and that is the position I am in, and what I am

. P-120

1still in. This is no doubt the reason why your expert was 2unable to find the slightest reference to this 3organisation in my private diaries. 4Q.
[Mr Rampton]
Do you remember speaking at the Best Western Hotel in 5Tampa on July 25th 1998? 6A.
[Mr Irving]
I remember speaking at the Best Western Hotel in Tampa, 7yes, but I do not know what the date was. 8Q.
[Mr Rampton]
I am just going to hold it up. This is a flier, poster or 9leaflet for your talk. Do you recognize it? 10A.
[Mr Irving]
No. I have not seen that. It would not have been sent to 11me for obvious reasons. 12Q.
[Mr Rampton]
It says: "Banned. World famous British historian banned 13for publishing politically incorrect views about the 14Holocaust". 15A.
[Mr Irving]
Can you tell me where I find it in the bundle, please? 16Q.
[Mr Rampton]
It is one of these files, trial bundle C, tab 2, page 78. 17Mr Irving, there is a witness statement in tab 2 which is 18that of the Defendants' witness Rebecca Gutman. 19A.
[Mr Irving]
Who we are not going to be able to cross-examine, I take 20it? 21Q.
[Mr Rampton]
No, you are certainly not. I am only interested in 22pictures of you, Mr Irving, and the stuff that you know 23about? 24A.
[Mr Irving]
I am talking about my coming back. If this witness is not 25presenting herself for cross-examination, then the court 26is entitled to take what view of her evidence it wishes.

. P-121

1Q.
[Mr Rampton]
Of course we know that, Mr Irving. Not only that, you 2should know that you are entitled to introduce by the same 3method material which might be apt to discredit her 4testimony. 5A.
[Mr Irving]
I am not the one who is defending this case. You are the 6one defending this case. I remind you that I am the 7Claimant in this action and you are the Defendants, not 8other way round. 9MR JUSTICE GRAY: On we go. 10MR RAMPTON: Thank you, Mr Irving. I think his Lordship 11probably knows that. You can be sure that I do. 12Mr Irving, will you look at that poster? 13A.
[Mr Irving]
Tab 2. 14Q.
[Mr Rampton]
Page 78 on the right-hand side of the page in the stamp. 15A.
[Mr Irving]
C2. 16Q.
[Mr Rampton]
Mine has just got C on it. 17A.
[Mr Irving]
This appears to be a leaflet handed out in the University 18of Southern Florida, University of Tampa. 19Q.
[Mr Rampton]
Best Western Hotel, 820 East Bush Boulevard, Tampa. That 20is a regular venue for your attendances at the National 21Alliances meetings, is it not, Mr Irving? 22A.
[Mr Irving]
I do not think I have ever spoken there again. I may be 23wrong. 24Q.
[Mr Rampton]
This is 1998. 25A.
[Mr Irving]
There is no year on this document. 26Q.
[Mr Rampton]
No, no, but there is in Miss Gutman's statement. This is

. P-122

1where she picked it up, and when she picked it up she 2reads in paragraph 3 as follows: "On or around mid July 31998 the AJC (whatever that is) South West Florida 4Chapter, received a flier ... advertising a lecture to be 5given by Mr Irving on 25th July 1998 at the Best Western 6Hotel (address), this flier is attached". 7A.
[Mr Irving]
The AJC is the American Jewish Committee, is that 8correct? 9Q.
[Mr Rampton]
I hope so, yes. Anyhow, it turns out it is another 10National Alliance meeting. 11A.
[Mr Irving]
She says, "Although the flier made no mention of the 12National Alliance, the contact telephone number given was 13the number listed for the national office and the National 14Alliance", and I of course would have known that, would I? 15Q.
[Mr Rampton]
You would, Mr Irving, would you not, if you were pictured 16on the rostrum, podium or platform with a National 17Alliance banner beside you? 18A.
[Mr Irving]
How on earth I would not what National Alliance banner 19looks like. 20MR JUSTICE GRAY: Let us have a look at it. Tell us where it 21is. 22A.
[Mr Irving]
Does it say National Alliance or something? 23MR RAMPTON: As far as I am told. I have never seen it. Let 24us look at it. 25 (Video was played)?26A.
[Mr Irving]
It has also got David Irving posters behind.

. P-123

1Q.
[Mr Rampton]
Yes. 2A.
[Mr Irving]
So what is the significance of the CND banner? 3Q.
[Mr Rampton]
CND? I thought you said National Alliance. 4 (Video played)? 5A.
[Mr Irving]
It looked like the CND emblem to me. 6Q.
[Mr Rampton]
No, they are not? 7A.
[Mr Irving]
Is that not the CND emblem? 8Q.
[Mr Rampton]
Mr Irving, if you would stop speaking for a moment, 9I could try and watch the picture. 10Q.
[Mr Rampton]
I see. That is what Mr Irving calls a CND banner. 11A.
[Mr Irving]
If I could see it from where I was standing, which is 12highly unlikely, if you look at the way the hall is laid 13out, I would have seen it sideways and I would have 14thought either that is a tree or a CND banner or 15something, but certainly the words and the banner would 16have meant nothing whatsoever to me. There is no reason 17why they should have. 18Q.
[Mr Rampton]
This is the eighth of eight meetings of this body that you 19had been to. 20A.
[Mr Irving]
What is the evidence for that. 21MR JUSTICE GRAY: Is it true? 22A.
[Mr Irving]
What? 23Q.
[Mr Justice Gray]
Have you been to eight meetings of the National Alliance? 24A.
[Mr Irving]
No, my Lord. Of the National Alliance, not. I have 25spoken across the United States possibly 50 or 60 times a 26year.

. P-124

1MR RAMPTON: That is one of them, is it not? 2A.
[Mr Irving]
Well, you have yet to produce any evidence that I have 3known that I am speaking in a National Alliance meeting 4and, if it is not in my private diary, which is the 5obvious place to look for that evidence, at a time when no 6legal action was contemplated, then quite clearly I had 7not the slightest notion what the National Alliance was. 8Q.
[Mr Rampton]
Mr Irving, in 1995 the man introduces you proudly on 9behalf of the National Alliance and National Vanguard 10Books. 11A.
[Mr Irving]
Why should that have stuck in my memory, do you think? 12Q.
[Mr Rampton]
Because you are tailed by another man who speaks about the 13National Alliance. You go back again at least in 1998. 14A.
[Mr Irving]
Excuse me. 15Q.
[Mr Rampton]
You go back again in 1998 and you speak from a rostrum 16with a prominent National Alliance banner beside you. 17A.
[Mr Irving]
If you could see where this prominent banner is, it is 18either on a back wall or on a side wall where no doubt 19I cannot see it. 20Q.
[Mr Rampton]
How did you get into the room, Mr Irving? Did somebody 21let you in? 22A.
[Mr Irving]
So you imagine I go into a room as the speaker and I say, 23before I just go up to the rostrum I am just going to have 24a look around all the walls to see what is on display here 25and oh, by the way, what is that banner over there? 26Q.
[Mr Rampton]
Who put up the pictures of you behind you?

. P-125

1A.
[Mr Irving]
No doubt the organizers did. 2Q.
[Mr Rampton]
Yes, the organizers, Mr Irving. Really! 3A.
[Mr Irving]
The people who had invited me there. 4Q.
[Mr Rampton]
Yes, the National Alliance. 5A.
[Mr Irving]
This is what you say but, unfortunately, you are 6introducing no evidence and your witness you are 7frightened to put on the cross-examination stand. 8Q.
[Mr Rampton]
We have seen the evidence on two tapes, Mr Irving. 9A.
[Mr Irving]
I am sorry, that is not sufficient. You have somebody, a 10member of the American Jewish Committee, who makes a 11written statement, who is not prepared to subject herself 12to cross-examination. I am prepared to subject myself to 13cross-examination week after week after week by you and 14none of your witnesses are prepared. 15Q.
[Mr Rampton]
Very kind of you considering that you brought this action, 16Mr Irving. We are all very grateful to you. 17MR JUSTICE GRAY: Mr Rampton, if I may say so, that sort of 18comment is going to prolong matters. 19MR RAMPTON: I pass on to the actual text. 20A.
[Mr Irving]
I think it is a very fair statement to make, to draw 21attention to the fact that they are not presenting their 22witnesses for cross-examination. 23MR JUSTICE GRAY: That is a perfectly fair point to make and 24I will bear it in mind with all the witnesses who are not 25actually going into the witness box to be cross-examined, 26I can assure you.

. P-126

1A.
[Mr Irving]
In the circumstances I think Mr Rampton's sarcasm is not 2called for. 3MR JUSTICE GRAY: Let us stop the comments and get on with the 4questions and answers. 5MR RAMPTON: Yes. I quite agree. I am sorry about that. Will 6you turn, please, to the text of what we have just seen? 7I have only a couple of questions about this. It has to 8do with some of the things that you have said. 9A.
[Mr Irving]
I draw attention first of all to the fact that there were 10familiar faces there, in other words people off my own 11mailing list are there. That is what the nature of the 12audience is. 13Q.
[Mr Rampton]
There was a lot of laughter, was there not, at your 14tasteless jokes? 15A.
[Mr Irving]
My what? 16Q.
[Mr Rampton]
A lot of laughter at your tasteless jokes, Mr Irving. 17A.
[Mr Irving]
I flatter myself that I am an accomplished speaker. 18Q.
[Mr Rampton]
I will not say what I was going to say. It would have 19been too obvious and rather cheap. Now, would you like to 20use the full text? 21A.
[Mr Irving]
You mean there was laughter at the point where I said, "if 22it does not fit you must acquit"? 23Q.
[Mr Rampton]
No. There was laughter ---- 24A.
[Mr Irving]
I am drawing attention to where the laughter comes and of 25course the reference there is to the O J Simpson case. 26Q.
[Mr Rampton]
No, no, Mr Irving----

. P-127

1Q.
[Mr Rampton]
You are interrupting me. The reference was to the O J 2Simpson case which had just ended two days earlier where 3Johnny Cochrand had won the case by saying, "If it does 4not fit, you must acquit." 5Q.
[Mr Rampton]
There was the first laughter. There was laughter all the 6way through and I am going to draw attention to some of 7the laughter. Some of it is noted not in that transcript, 8in my transcript. I made some notes as I was going 9through it. In particular, when you are dealing with the 10plan from Colindale, I think your page number is probably 1118. 12A.
[Mr Irving]
Yes. 13Q.
[Mr Rampton]
And over the page please. 14A.
[Mr Irving]
These opponents had tried the usual tactic of taking over 15half the audience and then rioting throughout my entire 16lecture. 17Q.
[Mr Rampton]
Please be patient. In the top half of page 19, the man 18from Colindale -- I do not know how you knew he came from 19Colindale, I am bound to say. 20MR JUSTICE GRAY: Let us leave that on one side. 21MR RAMPTON: Yes. You said to your affable audience in Tampa, 22"And he went berserk". Yes? 23A.
[Mr Irving]
Yes. 24Q.
[Mr Rampton]
He said: "Are you trying to say that we are responsible 25for Auschwitz ourselves"? 26A.
[Mr Irving]
Yes.

. P-128

1Q.
[Mr Rampton]
And I said: "Well, the short answer is yes", and at that 2point I made a note on my transcript that there was really 3quite loud laughter. 4A.
[Mr Irving]
Well, it is funny that it is not on the transcript in 5front of us when all the other laughter has been noted. 6Q.
[Mr Rampton]
We can go back to it, Mr Irving. I assure you it is 7right. 8A.
[Mr Irving]
I do not see quite what the point is that you are trying 9to make. 10Q.
[Mr Rampton]
What is funny about ---- 11A.
[Mr Irving]
I am repeating an actual exchange that happened in 12Shrieveport, Louisiana, between these hecklers who had 13decided to disrupt a lecture which I was delivering and 14then the heckling subsided and their ring leader stood up 15and I engaged him in this debate. He said precisely the 16words that I quoted there, and I could have dodged the 17issue and said I do not want to get into that, but instead 18I met it head on and I said, "Well, the short answer would 19be yes, but there is a long answer. The short answer 20misses out everything between the alpha and the omega, all 21the intervening stages". It may be that it is an 22uncomfortable answer, it may be that it was not the answer 23they wanted to hear, but it is a question I had been 24wrestling with ever since I first became engaged with the 25Holocaust, how do crimes like this happen, and why do they 26happen.

. P-129

1Q.
[Mr Rampton]
I am asking you a completely different question, 2Mr Irving. You know that I was. Again you dodge because 3you do not like it. I asked you ---- 4A.
[Mr Irving]
I am sorry, you did not get to the question then. 5Q.
[Mr Rampton]
What was funny about what you said? 6A.
[Mr Irving]
I disagree. I did not hear any laughter and, if there had 7been laughter ---- 8MR JUSTICE GRAY: Assume for the sake of argument, because 9I remember the laughter, assume there was laughter, what 10is funny about saying that the Jews are responsible for 11Auschwitz? 12A.
[Mr Irving]
It is not the least bit funny. 13MR RAMPTON: No. 14A.
[Mr Irving]
It is not the least bit funny and, if the audience laughs, 15you saw precisely what my answer was, I do not see what 16relevance it has to me. 17Q.
[Mr Rampton]
All right. Let us go up to the top of page 18. 18A.
[Mr Irving]
I think probably it would be called nervous laughter 19perhaps. 20Q.
[Mr Rampton]
Oh no, Mr Irving. 21A.
[Mr Irving]
Nervous laughter, because they had never heard an answer 22as blunt as that followed then by the corollary which was 23to explain precisely what you mean between the yes ---- 24Q.
[Mr Rampton]
Now Mr Irving ---- 25A.
[Mr Irving]
Between the alpha and the omega there is a whole series of 26intervening stages.

. P-130

1Q.
[Mr Rampton]
Would you like a rest? You seem very enerve, if I can use 2the French word. 3A.
[Mr Irving]
I can carry on if you can. 4MR JUSTICE GRAY: Mr Irving, it occurred to me actually whilst 5watching the film that you said you were up till 4 or 5 6this morning. I am very concerned that it is a huge 7physical strain on you and I would be perfectly happy if 8you said you had had enough. 9A.
[Mr Irving]
I can go as many rounds with Mr Rampton as he wishes. 10MR RAMPTON: You do not have to worry going rounds with me, 11Mr Irving. I have been doing this for 35 years. I am 12asking you genuinely. You seem rather rattled. Would you 13like a rest? 14A.
[Mr Irving]
Mr Rampton, I am not rattled. 15MR JUSTICE GRAY: Rattled is the wrong word. 16MR RAMPTON: Whatever? 17A.
[Mr Irving]
You have to accept the answers I give you in the spirit in 18which they are given. 19MR JUSTICE GRAY: We are going to carry on. 20MR RAMPTON: Go to the top of page 18, Mr Irving. 21A.
[Mr Irving]
If you are just trying to score cheap points from---- 22Q.
[Mr Rampton]
No, I am not. 23MR JUSTICE GRAY: Mr Irving, please, there is a lot of point 24scoring going on. Let us get on with the question and 25answers. 26MR RAMPTON: Mr Irving, what I am concerned about is that today

. P-131

1of all days you seem quite incapable of answering my 2questions. That is a waste of his Lordship's time and my 3client's money. 4MR JUSTICE GRAY: Ask another one. 5MR RAMPTON: Yes, I will. 6A.
[Mr Irving]
These are comments for his Lordship to make rather than 7for leading counsel, in my view. Can I draw your 8attention to the final sentence of that paragraph that you 9objected to? 10MR JUSTICE GRAY: Yes. 11A.
[Mr Irving]
It is an interesting point. They go round the other way 12and they make life unbearable for those who try to analyse 13whatever happened, whatever it was. That is what I try to 14do. I try to analyse whatever happened, whatever it was. 15It is not an easy task, because you are constantly being 16accused of wrong motives. 17MR RAMPTON: Now, can we please go to the top of page 18 in the 18version you have there? 19A.
[Mr Irving]
Yes. 20Q.
[Mr Rampton]
Here you cannot argue about laughter because it is written 21in. 22A.
[Mr Irving]
Yes. 23Q.
[Mr Rampton]
You said, "I find the whole Holocaust story utterly 24boring. It goes on and on and on and they, that is the 25Jews, keep going on about the Holocaust because it is the 26only interesting thing that has happened to them in the

. P-132

1last 3,000 years". Funny, isn't it? 2A.
[Mr Irving]
I think that 95 per cent of the thinking public find the 3Holocaust endlessly boring by now but they dare not say it 4because they know it is politically incorrect. 5Q.
[Mr Rampton]
The joke is in the sting in the tail. "It is the only 6interesting thing that has happened to the Jews in the 7last 3,000 years". Very funny, isn't it, Mr Irving? 8A.
[Mr Irving]
Well, what other explanation is there for the fact that 9that is all they ever go on about now? 10Q.
[Mr Rampton]
It might very well be that---- 11A.
[Mr Irving]
Lots of wonderful things have happened to them in their 123,000 years. There have been the most incredible episodes 13in the Jewish history and yet all we hear from the movies, 14the television and the newspapers of late is the 15Holocaust, and people are thoroughly bored of it. 16Q.
[Mr Rampton]
You are, Mr Irving, no doubt, and you do not speak for 17anybody but yourself, I am sorry. 18A.
[Mr Irving]
Maybe you stood in Oxford Street with a clip board taking 19a poll saying, "are you bored with the Holocaust yet?" My 20own perception, which is what I am giving here from this 21box, is that the people I speak to, who are intelligent 22people from academic and ordinary walks of life, say they 23are thoroughly fed up with it. 24Q.
[Mr Rampton]
You do not know anything about it and you have managed to 25lecture for an hour about the detail of it. 26A.
[Mr Irving]
What, now?

. P-133

1Q.
[Mr Rampton]
No, in this transcript. You went on for an hour. 2A.
[Mr Irving]
It has been interesting to this audience because I had put 3to them facts they did not know about, the code breaking, 4about the aerial photographs, everything they have not 5heard about on the established media I have been putting 6to them. That is how I have held their attention. 7MR JUSTICE GRAY: What I think may have been being put to you 8and, if it was not, I will put it ---- 9A.
[Mr Irving]
Question of taste. 10Q.
[Mr Rampton]
Listen to my question. 11MR RAMPTON: It is not a question of taste. 12MR JUSTICE GRAY: You said many times that you are not a 13Holocaust historian, and I understand that. 14A.
[Mr Irving]
Yes. 15Q.
[Mr Justice Gray]
But you said you had to become one. I cannot remember and 16I have not got the reference, but when was it you told me 17that you decided you had to become a Holocaust historian? 18A.
[Mr Irving]
I had to become one for this trial, my Lord, which means 19for the last three years I have wading around knee deep in 20matter and in files and in documents that I would never 21willingly and voluntarily have occupied myself with. 22Q.
[Mr Justice Gray]
Was the speech in Tampa, Florida, in 1995? 23A.
[Mr Irving]
Yes. 24Q.
[Mr Justice Gray]
It appears to me that you knew an awful lot about the 25Holocaust then. 26A.
[Mr Irving]
This is true because by that time there had been a lot of

. P-134

1discussion about it in the newspapers, and material had 2come my way. If people send you things about the decodes, 3if people send you things about the aerial photographs, if 4you are the Hitler historian that I was and people send 5you material indicating, for example, the police decodes, 6which have obviously now come to play a very important 7part in the Hitler history, for example the episode around 8November 30, December 1st 1941, you pick up this material 9as you go along. But I certainly never knew as much then 10as I have learned in the course of this trial, and 11particularly from the very interesting remarks made by 12Professor van Pelt. When I read Professor van Pelt's book 13for the first time "In 1270" I wrote both to him and to 14Trevor Roper in fact in May 1997, saying the most 15extraordinary book on Auschwitz had been published, which 16was one of the first books I have read from cover to 17cover. That was the kind of interest I had, general 18interest. 19MR JUSTICE GRAY: Thank you very much. Mr Rampton, that was my 20interruption. 21MR RAMPTON: I find that helpful. Looking back on it now, 22Mr Irving, in the light of what you actually know as 23opposed to what you purported to know in October 1995, 24would you accept that almost everything that you told this 25audience about the facts of the Holocaust was wrong? 26A.
[Mr Irving]
Some figures are wrong, I think.

. P-135

1Q.
[Mr Rampton]
Leuchter was wrong? 2A.
[Mr Irving]
I do not agree. Can we just turn to the passage where 3I refer to Leuchter? 4Q.
[Mr Rampton]
I am not starting that cross-examination all over again. 5A.
[Mr Irving]
If you look at the top of page 19, that is the passage you 6are referring to. I looked at that in some alarm, I must 7admit, in view of what we have been discussing here in 8these last few days. I refer specifically to the cyanide 9findings -- which is what Leuchter was good on, in my 10view. 11Q.
[Mr Rampton]
You mentioned Hinsley? 12A.
[Mr Irving]
Yes. 13Q.
[Mr Rampton]
I cannot remember whether you mentioned the death books in 14this speech or not. 15A.
[Mr Irving]
I did, yes. 16Q.
[Mr Rampton]
Without even pausing to consider the evidence to the 17effect that those who were immediately gassed were never 18registered? 19A.
[Mr Irving]
That the burden of the eyewitness testimony, yes. 20Q.
[Mr Rampton]
It is also what a number of the Germans said too, for 21example General Oswald Pohl, but never mind that. 22A.
[Mr Irving]
In what way is General Oswald Pohl not eyewitness 23testimony? 24Q.
[Mr Rampton]
It is. It is post war eyewitness testimony from the 25German side. 26A.
[Mr Irving]
I shall be introducing a document to Professor Browning

. P-136

1which suggests precisely the opposite when the time comes. 2Q.
[Mr Rampton]
You go on about people faking their tattoos, in effect 3Mrs Altmann's tattoo is a fake, is it not? 4A.
[Mr Irving]
On the contrary, I said that she no doubt suffered. 5Q.
[Mr Rampton]
No. I will take you to the passage. We cannot leave that 6answer where it is, I am afraid. What page is it in the 7transcript? 8A.
[Mr Irving]
You have to remember I have had the benefit of seeing Mrs 9Altmann in action on television and you have not. 10Q.
[Mr Rampton]
Page 17, last quarter of the page. Tell me one thing. 11You are reporting in what one might think rather tasteless 12terms, that is your own word, your conversation with 13Mrs Altmann. Tell me one thing, and this is why I am 14going to get tasteless with her, because you have got to 15get tasteless. "Mrs Altmann, how much money have you made 16out of that tattoo since 1945? Laughter again. Jolly 17funny. How much money have you coined for that bit of ink 18on your arm, which may indeed be real tattooed ink"? 19A.
[Mr Irving]
Yes. 20Q.
[Mr Rampton]
The suggestion is she has had it put on after the war. 21A.
[Mr Irving]
You can take that one either way. As a general matter, in 22my view, expressing a criticism of the way that a Jew or 23the Jewish people are behaving or acting cannot be taken 24per se as anti-Semitism. They are not a people or a race 25who are immune from criticism, am I right? 26Q.
[Mr Rampton]
Mr Irving, the suggestion is that Mrs Altman had that

. P-137

1tattoo put on her and pretty damned quick after the war so 2as to get money out the German Government, is it not? Be 3honest for once, that is what you are trying to suggest 4and that is why you got a jolly laugh? 5A.
[Mr Irving]
I said it may be genuine; it may not. 6Q.
[Mr Rampton]
That is why you got a laugh for your tasteless joke? 7A.
[Mr Irving]
Whether it got a laugh or not is neither here nor there. 8I am concerned only with the words I have uttered, which 9is that may be genuine or it not may not. We cannot tell. 10Q.
[Mr Rampton]
The fact is that those which were gassed without going 11into the camp to work were never tattooed, were they? 12A.
[Mr Irving]
That is the eyewitness evidence, yes. 13Q.
[Mr Rampton]
Yes, and it would not be in the least bit surprising, as 14in fact happened, if a lot of those who were registered 15tattooed and set to work, particularly towards the end of 16the war, actually survived, would it? 17A.
[Mr Irving]
I think that the burden of my criticism of the Mrs Altmans 18of this world is that the ones who have been coining the 19money are the ones who suffered least. The ones who 20suffered most are the ones died under the most hideous 21circumstances in these camps, and they did not get a bent 22nickel out of it of course. It is survivors, whatever 23degree they suffered or otherwise, who have been turning 24their suffering into profit, whereas people who suffered 25in other circumstances, like the air raid victims or the 26Australians soldiers building the Burmese railway, have

. P-138

1never sought to make money of their suffering. This is a 2criticism of the Jewish survivors that it cannot be taken 3as anti-Semitism. The reason I say it is a criticism is 4because I perceive that as being a possible source later 5of anti-Semitism. 6Q.
[Mr Rampton]
Very nicely put in a nice academic way, Mr Irving. 7A.
[Mr Irving]
Thank you very much. 8Q.
[Mr Rampton]
Yes, but I am not your audience in Tampa in October 1995, 9that is the difference. 10A.
[Mr Irving]
In other words, I should tailor my utterances to the 11audience I am speaking to? This I think would be 12repugnant. I have never tailored my utterances to the 13audience. I have always given every audience exactly the 14same speech. 15Q.
[Mr Rampton]
Yes, exactly, and in exactly the same terms with the same 16sneer in your voice. 17A.
[Mr Irving]
I disagree. 18Q.
[Mr Rampton]
We all heard it. 19A.
[Mr Irving]
I disagree. I am not accustomed to sneer. I do not stoop 20to the hypocrisy or sarcasm when I speak. 21Q.
[Mr Rampton]
The same sarcastic jokes which evoked laughter from you 22sympathetic audience about the suffering of the Jews at 23Auschwitz? 24A.
[Mr Irving]
I am prepared to take lessons in sarcasm from you, 25Mr Rampton. 26Q.
[Mr Rampton]
Mr Irving, I have no interest in a sober academic argument

. P-139

1which I believe to be hopelessly ill-conceived any, but 2that is completely beside the point, about whether or not 3the Jews are in some sense to blame for what has happened 4to them through the pages of history. I am interested in 5your motivation, your attitude and nobody else's. You 6notice I did not cross-examine your nice Mr McDonald. 7That is the reason, Mr Irving. 8A.
[Mr Irving]
Well, I think we know the reasons why you did not 9cross-examine Professor McDonald. 10Q.
[Mr Rampton]
If you would look, please, at page 19, it is the last 11reference I want to make to this transcript. Towards the 12end of the big paragraph at the top of the page there is a 13sentence which begins: "If you", that is Jews: "If you 14[Jews] had behaved differently over the intervening 3,000 15years, the Germans would have gone about their business 16and would not have found it necessary to go around doing 17whatever they did to them, nor would the Russians, the 18Ukranians, the Lithuanians, Estonians, Latvians and all 19the other countries where you have had a rough time." 20 Why do you propose that in any sense, whatever 21the Jews might have done or not done, differently or 22otherwise, made it necessary for them to be exterminated 23by these other central Europeans? 24A.
[Mr Irving]
I agree "necessary" is the wrong word. The point I am 25trying to make there, it is exactly the same question as 26I put to Goldhagen in New Orleans. I said to him, not

. P-140

1just the question that why have all these nations found it 2so easy to kill the Jews, why have all these nations found 3it so easy to unburden themselves for their Jewish 4population, for example the Slovaks and the Dutch and the 5Hungarians and Romanians and so on, when the Nazis said 6"Give us your Jews", all these surrounding countries 7said, "Take them off us", that would have worried me if 8I was a Jew. Also why the British and the Americans and 9the other nations refused to accept the boat loads of 10Jews, like the famous episode with the St Louis, the ship 11laden with Jews, these kinds of things would have 12concerned me as a Jew. I would have wanted to know what 13is it, why do people not want to accept us, why do people 14not want to rescue us. I would have wanted to know that 15far more than I would have wanted to know the sordid story 16of who pulled the triggers. But maybe I am different from 17Goldhagen in that respect. He wants to look at the 18immediate effect and I would have wanted to look at the 19cause. 20Q.
[Mr Rampton]
Thank you, Mr Irving. 21A.
[Mr Irving]
I agree that the word "necessary" is totally misplaced 22there. 23Q.
[Mr Rampton]
Indeed so. You used it, nonetheless, to a different 24audience? 25A.
[Mr Irving]
I am not speaking, as you will have noticed, from the 26film, I am not speaking from a prepared script.

. P-141

1Q.
[Mr Rampton]
No. 2A.
[Mr Irving]
Any more than I am speaking from a prepared script now. 3Q.
[Mr Rampton]
Mr Irving, do you have, only because I do not have a 4transcript in the file, that clip of extracts which 5I handed in this morning? 6A.
[Mr Irving]
Do I have that clip of extracts? 7Q.
[Mr Rampton]
Yes, this little clip of extracts? If you do, could you 8please turn to page 24 of it, to the extract marked 1.7/A 9in a square bracket. 10A.
[Mr Irving]
Yes. 11Q.
[Mr Rampton]
I want you to look at the top of the page. There are some 12words in German in a square bracket which are said to come 13from a video cassette of your having said something 14entitled the: "Ich Komme Wieder" about 1994. 15A.
[Mr Irving]
Yes, rioters standing outside my home against whom the 16West End Police had to put up steel barricades, yes, very 17nice people. 18Q.
[Mr Rampton]
I am sure you were not feeling in the best of moods 19because you had just lost your contract with the Sunday 20Times for the serialization of the Goebbels' Diary, had 21you not? 22A.
[Mr Irving]
Not true. This is two years before that. 23Q.
[Mr Rampton]
So it is not 1994? 24A.
[Mr Irving]
No. The contract with St Martins -- I am sorry, the St 25Martins Press contract was lost in April 1996. 26MR JUSTICE GRAY: No, this is the Sunday Times contract.

. P-142

1A.
[Mr Irving]
The Sunday Times episode was, if this is referring to July 21992, yes, the "Gas Irving" posters and so on. 3MR RAMPTON: I am sure you were under pressure, as you are now, 4reasons for stress. 5A.
[Mr Irving]
On the contrary, I would use exactly the same phrase now. 6Anybody who comes ---- 7MR JUSTICE GRAY: Let us see what the phrase was because I have 8not seen this before. 9MR RAMPTON: Let us see what you said: "The whole rabble", you 10read the German and then you can correct the translation 11if it is wrong: "The whole rabble, all the scum of 12humanities stand outside. Homosexuals, the gypsies the 13lesbians" ---- 14A.
[Mr Irving]
This is a typical example of how objectionable it is to 15produce something out of context. Outside what? The 16answer is outside my family home at 3 a.m. in the morning 17we hear the police bringing the barricades. I get phone 18calls from the police say, "Mr Irving, if your home is 19invaded this is the emergency number you have to phone". 20I get a phone call from Scotland Yard saying, "Mr Irving, 21we need to come and photograph the inside of your apparent 22in case we have to come rescue because we have had secret 23intelligence about what they are going to do to you." 24This is the kind of nightmare I went through in July 1992, 25when I see the barricades going up outside my house during 26the middle of the night and my family says, "What's the

. P-143

1sound?", and I say: "It's lorries unloading barricades 2again. Tomorrow the scum are going to be outside again", 3and here they are described. 4Q.
[Mr Rampton]
Now under stress, a perhaps little frightened, certainly 5angry? 6A.
[Mr Irving]
I am not easily frightened but I get angry at this kind of 7thing. 8Q.
[Mr Rampton]
Right, angry when under stress. Do you know the 9expression, I am sure you do, which is sometimes used, it 10is Latin but it is not legal Latin so I can use it, in 11vino veritas? 12A.
[Mr Irving]
Are you accusing me of drinking? 13Q.
[Mr Rampton]
No. Please do not always try to fifth guess me. In vino 14veritas, what does it mean? It means that we sometimes 15get better truth from people when they are pickled. 16A.
[Mr Irving]
When they are drunk. 17Q.
[Mr Rampton]
No, in wine it means, in their cups. 18A.
[Mr Irving]
Yes. 19Q.
[Mr Rampton]
Do you not agree sometimes when a man is angry or under 20stress the mask may slip? 21A.
[Mr Irving]
That is precisely why I prefer to carry on talking this 22evening so that his Lordship knows that I am talking from 23the heart. 24Q.
[Mr Rampton]
I suggest this came directly from the heart, Mr Irving. 25This is when the mask slips. Mr Irving is under stress. 26He is angry. He thinks people are getting at him. He is

. P-144

1feeling persecuted. 2A.
[Mr Irving]
I think people are getting at me? 3Q.
[Mr Rampton]
Yes. 4A.
[Mr Irving]
Well, what evidence does one need before one stops 5thinking and starts realising? 6Q.
[Mr Rampton]
He has got a grudge against the Sunday Times and some 7people are causing a nuisance, and so what he says is 8this: "The whole rabble, all the scum of humanity, stand 9outside. The homosexuals, the gypsies, the lesbians", and 10now this is where you interrupted me, "the Jews, the 11criminals, the communists, the left-wring extremists, the 12whole commune stands there and has to be held back behind 13steel barricades for two days." 14 That is Mr Irving's true mind, is it not? 15A.
[Mr Irving]
This is a literal description of who was visible on the 16other side of those barricades. Shall I show you the 17photographs? We can identify who they are, the banners 18they are holding, the placards, the leaflets they are 19holding out, the stickers they are putting on all the 20lampposts: Irving speaks Rostock burns. That is what 21I had to put with day after day. 22Q.
[Mr Rampton]
Are we going to see gypsies? 23A.
[Mr Irving]
They were there. They were there in the photographs. They 24were holding up placards saying "Gas Irving". 25Q.
[Mr Rampton]
What, the sort of "Gay liberation wants Irving gassed"? 26A.
[Mr Irving]
I will bring the photographs in and you can satisfy

. P-145

1yourself. I have quite a folder of them. 2Q.
[Mr Rampton]
This is the plain language of a plain unvarnished racist? 3A.
[Mr Irving]
On the contrary. This is the language of somebody who can 4see the evidence with his own eyes, the people who he has 5got to put up with, the people who are harassing everybody 6in that street for two days, being held back by the forces 7of law and order. 8Q.
[Mr Rampton]
Right. 9A.
[Mr Irving]
I will give you one clue as to the conditions of terror we 10were living in, my family. 11Q.
[Mr Rampton]
Do not. 12A.
[Mr Irving]
I am sorry, I am going to tell it to you. We had basket, 13a Moses basket in the corner of my drawing room with a 14length of wire rope so I could lower my child out of the 15window in case my house was set on fire. That is the 16conditions we were living under at the time I made that 17speech. 18Q.
[Mr Rampton]
Of course. I understand that. 19A.
[Mr Irving]
It cannot be very nice. I am sure this very seldom 20happens to leading counsel. 21Q.
[Mr Rampton]
I will not respond to that either. Mr Irving, I want to 22look at some other little things that you said, if I may. 23Page tab 10 of this file, please. Page, I hope this is 24going to be right, page 57. 25MR JUSTICE GRAY: I am in the wrong file. Which file are you 26in?

. P-146

1MR RAMPTON: It is K4, my Lord. You are in the right file, my 2Lord. I am in the wrong one. I meant K4. 3MR JUSTICE GRAY: Is this in the clip? 4MR RAMPTON: Yes, it is my Lord. 5MR JUSTICE GRAY: Give me the reference? 6MR RAMPTON: It is the bottom of page 24 and the top of page 25 7of the clip. This is from your publication Action Report, 8Mr Irving, is it not, for July 1997? 9A.
[Mr Irving]
What page are we looking at, 24? 10Q.
[Mr Rampton]
57. 11A.
[Mr Irving]
Page 57. 12Q.
[Mr Rampton]
Tab 10, page 57. It is the column: "Going for Gold". 13A.
[Mr Irving]
Yes. 14Q.
[Mr Rampton]
I will read the first paragraph as your Lordship has not 15got that in the clip, but it does no matter. It is very 16short: 17 "Mr Winston Churchill is rumoured to have 18observed that he could listen to arguments about the 19merits of different breeds of tea with complete 20disinterest. Action Report finds it can view any dispute 21between New York politicians, lawyers, wealthy Swiss 22bankers and the international Jewish community with the 23same lack of passion. What is remarkable is that this 24community have considered it worth taking such a long-term 25risk, possibly evening sowing the seeds of future 26Holocaust in the name of short-term gain in gold. All the

. P-147

1elements of anti-Semitic stereotype are there. The 2cosmopolitan, rootless millionaire, bereft of any local 3patriotism, flinging his unpopular perception, ill-gotten 4gains outer head as he escapes from the country where he 5has briefly rested. The demand for 'unclaimed Gold' 6regardless of whose it is", note those words, Mr Irving, 7"regardless of whose it is, whether wedding rings eased 8off the lifeless fingers of Hamburg or Dresden air raid 9casualties for identification purposes and stored by the 10bucket in the Reichsbank vaults or dental fillings ripped 11out of the bodies of gas chamber victims by SS dentists, 12somehow immune to the Zyklon fumes which had dispatched 13the others." That is July 1997. 14A.
[Mr Irving]
Yes. 15Q.
[Mr Rampton]
What is this reference then to the gas chamber victims and 16the Zyklon-B fumes? 17A.
[Mr Irving]
Well ---- 18Q.
[Mr Rampton]
The mask slipped again, has it? 19A.
[Mr Irving]
No, but we saw in the drawings that have been shown to us 20by Professor van Pelt the gold aubeit, the rooms where the 21smelting furnace was contained. 22Q.
[Mr Rampton]
Sure. 23A.
[Mr Irving]
It is well-known that in the mortuaries they ripped the 24gold teeth out of the victims. 25Q.
[Mr Rampton]
But, Mr Irving, "these gold teeth", according to you, 26"came from the bodies of gas chamber victims taken by SS

. P-148

1dentists somehow immune to the Zyklon fumes which had 2dispatched the victims." 3A.
[Mr Irving]
Yes, this is one of the eyewitness statements that is 4obviously baloney because they could not have gone in 5there. 6Q.
[Mr Rampton]
What is it doing in this article, Mr Irving, by you in 71997? 8A.
[Mr Irving]
I cannot quite understand the point you are making or the 9question you are asking. 10Q.
[Mr Rampton]
Why are you making reference to this if you do not believe 11it to be true? 12A.
[Mr Irving]
Why am I making reference to this if I do not believe to 13be true. 14Q.
[Mr Rampton]
Yes. Why are you, a Holocaust denier in full fledged 15condition in 1997, making reference to dead people from 16the gas chambers having their teeth, gold teeth ripped out 17by the SS dentists? 18A.
[Mr Irving]
But I have just said, it is accepted by all parties that 19the Nazis gangsters stole the gold teeth from their 20victims. 21Q.
[Mr Rampton]
Again you are dodging the point. 22MR JUSTICE GRAY: You are dodging the gas chamber element. 23A.
[Mr Irving]
Your Lordship, can you rephrase the question for me so I 24can understand it? 25MR JUSTICE GRAY: Yes. What Mr Rampton is putting to is that 26it sounds as if you are accepting in what you there say

. P-149

1that there were indeed gas chamber victims who had their 2gold fillings removed by SS dentists. 3A.
[Mr Irving]
I do not think so, my Lord. 4Q.
[Mr Rampton]
Why not? 5A.
[Mr Irving]
The whole tenor of that is supposed to be disbelieving to 6the point of mockery, and the reason I say that is they 7are helping to regenerate the ill-gotten stereotype of the 8ugly greedy Jew. If you will carry on to the next 9paragraph but one, you will see the source of that 10particular criticism by me. I freely admit to having 11stolen the criticism from Heim Bermont who is a very wise 12English writer indeed who wrote for the Jewish Chronicle 13and who interviewed me once. He made precisely the same 14criticism, that by helping to create or recreate this 15public perception, this public image, of the grab-all 16rich, wealthy Jew, they were generating fresh 17anti-Semitism with this gold campaign. 18MR RAMPTON: Mr Irving ---- 19A.
[Mr Irving]
And Heim Bermont went on to say that the truth is, as 20everybody knows, that most Jews are in fact not rich and 21wealthy. 22Q.
[Mr Rampton]
We see in the middle of that, you draw our attention to 23it ---- 24A.
[Mr Irving]
Yes. 25Q.
[Mr Rampton]
--- in middle of that paragraph, two on, on the other side 26of the column ----

. P-150

1A.
[Mr Irving]
Yes. 2Q.
[Mr Rampton]
--- after you have quoted Heim Burman, you say: 3"Commenting on the squabbles that had already broken out 4between rival factions ... and the anti-defamation league, 5all of whom want their pound of Swiss flesh." Whose words 6are those? 7A.
[Mr Irving]
Probably Bermont. I have quoted Bermont. 8Q.
[Mr Rampton]
It is not in quotes. 9A.
[Mr Irving]
Bermont wrote a savage leading article in the Jewish 10Chronicle. I have never seen an article written -- if a 11non-Jew had written that he would be described as being 12viciously anti-Semitic. 13Q.
[Mr Rampton]
It is a reference to the unsympathetic portrait of Jewish 14nature presented by William Shakespeare in the Merchant of 15Venice, is it not? 16A.
[Mr Irving]
Yes. 17Q.
[Mr Rampton]
It is your reference and not Mr Bermont's, is it not? 18A.
[Mr Irving]
Whether it is mine or Mr Bermont's I do not know, but 19placed where that it is in a paragraph which starts with 20Bermont and ends with Bermont, I am pretty certain it 21comes from Bermont. 22Q.
[Mr Rampton]
Can we go back to the paragraph on the left-hand side of 23the page? 24A.
[Mr Irving]
Yes. 25Q.
[Mr Rampton]
You say: "All the elements of anti-Semitic stereotype are 26there"?

. P-151

1A.
[Mr Irving]
The stereotype. 2Q.
[Mr Rampton]
Yes. 3A.
[Mr Irving]
Yes. 4Q.
[Mr Rampton]
I know. I have heard what you said about it. What I want 5to know is why the rest of it is there: "The cosmopolitan 6rootless millionaire bereft of any local patriotism". 7Where does that stereotype come from? 8A.
[Mr Irving]
That is part of the stereotype. 9Q.
[Mr Rampton]
It is, is it? 10A.
[Mr Irving]
Yes. 11Q.
[Mr Rampton]
In whose mind? 12A.
[Mr Irving]
It is part of the general anti-Semitic stereotype of the 13Jew. 14Q.
[Mr Rampton]
Which is you are busy promoting here, are you not? 15A.
[Mr Irving]
No. I am not quoting in fact -- shall I bring in the 16article that Bermont wrote? I am pretty sure I can find 17it or get it from his web site. 18Q.
[Mr Rampton]
It has all this stuff, does it, about ---- 19A.
[Mr Irving]
The only thing I admit which Bermont did not write was 20where I said that the weddings rings may have come off the 21lifeless fingers of the Hamburg victims or the Dresden air 22raid victims, because I happen to know that our witness 23Hans Voight collected three buckets of wedding rings off 24the fingers of lifeless victims of the Dresden air raids, 25and they went to the Reichsbank and they were filmed in 26the Reichsbank subsequently for the Nuremberg trial.

. P-152

1I have the record of the Nuremberg trial officers who 2said: "Unfortunately we cannot use that film of the gold 3rings found in the Reichsbank because we have no evidence 4it came from concentration camps". 5MR JUSTICE GRAY: So you are saying part of the stereotype is 6true and part is not? 7A.
[Mr Irving]
Well, most of the stereotype is untrue, but this is what 8the Jewish people, the community, rightly objected, that 9they have gained this stereotype somehow and Bermont has 10written this warning editorial in the Jewish Chronicle 11saying: Here we go again, we are just helping create it 12again because a few self-appointed leaders of the Jewish 13community, whether they are Abraham Foxman or Charles 14Edgar Bronson, or whoever it is, are going about this 15ill-advised campaign against the Swiss, which is just 16helping to reinforce the ugly stereotype. 17MR RAMPTON: While we are in this volume, Mr Irving can we just 18pick up that reference to the pound of flesh, please? 19A.
[Mr Irving]
Yes. 20Q.
[Mr Rampton]
It seems to be one of your themes, if I may say so. Page 2150 of the same volume, my Lord. This is page 23 at the 22top of the clip. I am going to read from the clip, 23because my copy of the article has been sliced off by the 24machine. There is a paragraph on the right-hand side 25beside the box in the middle which begins "Finally". Do 26you have that?

. P-153

1A.
[Mr Irving]
Yes. 2Q.
[Mr Rampton]
"Will Jon Dem Janjung now sue his tormentors" and it is 3all about ---- 4A.
[Mr Irving]
Yes. 5Q.
[Mr Rampton]
--- that man. 6A.
[Mr Irving]
Yes, the most shocking episode in American judicial 7history I think. 8MR JUSTICE GRAY: What, that he got acquitted? 9A.
[Mr Irving]
He was finally acquitted on the orders of the Israeli 10judges, except he had been framed and set up by eleven 11false eyewitnesses, as one man identified him, and the 12Israeli Supreme Court set him free. 13MR RAMPTON: Mr Irving, I am tempted to say "so what" but if I 14do you will produce a life size portrait of Mr Dem Janjung 15I dare say. Really, Mr Irving, you did not mean that. 16Page 23, my Lord. 17A.
[Mr Irving]
You do not always get the answers you need, Mr Rampton. 18MR JUSTICE GRAY: Page 23 of the little clip. 19MR RAMPTON: I did not ask you about Mr Dem Janjung. That was 20one of your offerings, Mr Irving. 21A.
[Mr Irving]
You asked me about the paragraph. 22Q.
[Mr Rampton]
And then you gave us a long lecture about something which 23has nothing to do with this case. 24A.
[Mr Irving]
Perhaps you should not have paused. 25Q.
[Mr Rampton]
What you have actually written is this: "The world will 26not easily forget how, even when" ----

. P-154

1A.
[Mr Irving]
"Even when acquitted after all". 2Q.
[Mr Rampton]
Do not give me another pitiful lecture about Mr Dem 3Janjung, please? 4A.
[Mr Irving]
You are just going to read what I wrote. 5Q.
[Mr Rampton]
"Dem Janjung was detained in custody by his enemies for 6two more weeks while they thumbed through their sweaty 7manuals looking for some way to crush him that they might 8have overlooked. Nor how when they failed again these 9shylocks cheated on their pray, frog marched him to his 10plane home to freedom still in handcuffs like a convicted 11criminal." 12 I quite agree that one can take the view that it 13was a disgraceful prosecution. The fact that the 14prosecution was made by Israelis, who one must assume were 15Jewish, do you think that that justifies the use of 16language like this? 17A.
[Mr Irving]
I do not think these particular lawyers are above 18criticism, and that was a criticism I chose to level at 19them. I think they are below, beneath criticism, these 20people. 21Q.
[Mr Rampton]
Why the shylocks though? 22A.
[Mr Irving]
Because they wanted -- you know the Shakespearian 23quotation? 24Q.
[Mr Rampton]
Yes, Mr Irving. 25A.
[Mr Irving]
They wanted their final pound of flesh. Although he had 26been acquitted by the Supreme Court they kept him in jail

. P-155

1and they frog marched him in handcuffs although he was a 2free and innocent man. What better description of it is 3there than that? I repeat, these people are not above 4criticism just because they happen to be Jews, believe 5me. They are beneath contempt for it. They tried to hang 6him for political reasons. 7Q.
[Mr Rampton]
On the next page 51, I do not know what this issue is, May 81995 I think, my Lord, this is page 26 at 1.7 (c). You 9are writing something about Wiesenthalers Zap Jap Crap, 10whatever you mean by that. This is full of stuff about 11Israel and Jews. 12A.
[Mr Irving]
Either read the whole article or do not make any comments 13on it. 14Q.
[Mr Rampton]
I am not the least bit interested in, as it were, your 15themes in your articles, Mr Irving. I am Interested in 16your terminology. That is why I drew attention to your 17use of the word "shylocks". 18A.
[Mr Irving]
Zap, Jap or Crap, which is the word? 19Q.
[Mr Rampton]
I now look at the bottom of the right-hand column of this 20article and I see this: "Overshadowed by the gloating 21vulpine figure of Rabbi Cooper himself." 22A.
[Mr Irving]
I cannot see this. 23MR JUSTICE GRAY: It is right at the bottom right-hand corner. 24MR RAMPTON: It has a 3 against it. 25A.
[Mr Irving]
A 3? 26MR JUSTICE GRAY: The right-hand column right at the bottom.

. P-156

1A.
[Mr Irving]
Yes. 2MR RAMPTON: "The gloating vulpine figure", does that remind 3you of any sort of propaganda put out at any time in 4recent European history, Mr Irving? 5A.
[Mr Irving]
No. It sounds rather Churchillian to me. 6Q.
[Mr Rampton]
Have you got your Goebbels book there? 7A.
[Mr Irving]
Have you ever read Churchill's speeches about Adolf 8Hitler? Exactly the same kind of language. 9Q.
[Mr Rampton]
Neither of them is on trial here. 10A.
[Mr Irving]
August 1941, a magnificent speech that Churchill made, 11oddly enough shortly after he had read the first police 12decodes of the crimes on the Eastern Front. He used 13exactly this kind of terminology. 14Q.
[Mr Rampton]
Mr Irving, you tried to lead us down that road before. 15I tried to suggest that Mr Churchill might have had some 16reason to be beastly about nice Mr Hitler. 17A.
[Mr Irving]
Well, you asked for an answer and you do not like the 18answer you get. 19Q.
[Mr Rampton]
That reminds you of Churchill, does it? 20A.
[Mr Irving]
You asked me about the language. 21Q.
[Mr Rampton]
Yes, I did. 22A.
[Mr Irving]
And I am telling you that it is Churchillian language. 23Q.
[Mr Rampton]
OK. Now would you get your Goebbels' book please, if you 24have it to hand, and turn to after page 332. Sorry, 25I will have to count the pages. I will count them as 26double: 1, 2, 3, 4. On the left-hand side page there is

. P-157

1a picture of Hitler wearing what looks like a bathrobe in 2the bottom of the picture or it might be a dust coat, I do 3not know, with a hat on. 4A.
[Mr Irving]
Yes. 5Q.
[Mr Rampton]
On the right-hand side there are some pictures with the 6heading "Isidor's Torment"? 7A.
[Mr Irving]
Yes. 8Q.
[Mr Rampton]
"From the moment of his arrival in Berlin on November 28th 9Dr Goebbels wages a remorseless war against the city's 10police chief, Dr Bernhard Weiss. Weiss sues him forty 11times, mostly for calling him Isidor", of course his name 12was not Isidor. "Nazi caricaturist Mjolnir portrays him 13as a donkey skating on thin ice. After a judge rules the 14cartoon defamatory, Goebbels' newspaper announces: Judge 15agrees donkey does look like Isidor." 16 I do not know what that is doing in that book. 17Perhaps you would tell us? 18A.
[Mr Irving]
In this book? 19Q.
[Mr Rampton]
Yes. You have put a picture of Dr Weiss or whatever he 20was. 21A.
[Mr Irving]
If you have read the book ---- 22Q.
[Mr Rampton]
He was chief of police, was he not? 23A.
[Mr Irving]
I am sure his Lordship has read the book, although may not 24have. Goebbels' arch enemy during the years when he was 25Gauleiters of Berlin before the Nazis came to power, was 26in fact Bernhard Weiss who Goebbels mocked and called

. P-158

1"Isidor". He raged this remorseless campaign against him 2in the newspapers he controlled resulting in no fewer than 340 libel actions brought against him by the police chief, 4and this is a page devoted to that particular episode. 5Goebbels was obviously completely incorrigible. He had 6utter contempt for the law courts in Berlin. He repeated 7the libels. Weiss fled to England after the Nazis came to 8power, and I believe his daughter is still alive in North 9London. 10Q.
[Mr Rampton]
She may still be. We knew that she was in 1994. 11A.
[Mr Irving]
Yes, I approached her to try to obtain a more flattering 12photograph of her father. 13Q.
[Mr Rampton]
Can I just read what you wrote, it saves us getting out 14yet another file. This is revelations from the Goebbels' 15diary in the Historical Review for January/February -- no, 16I am reading from the wrong thing -- it is 1995. My Lord, 17the reference is K3, tab 18, pages 7 to 8. Mr Irving, 18I expect you will want to look at the full text. 19A.
[Mr Irving]
I am sure we can take it if you just read it out. 20Q.
[Mr Rampton]
You publish a picture of Dr Weiss or Mr Weiss or 21Superintendent Weiss or whatever he was. 22A.
[Mr Irving]
Yes, I went to some pains to try to get a better 23photograph of him. 24Q.
[Mr Rampton]
You write this, the right-hand column on page 7: "Isidor 25Weiss", and you retain Goebbels' nomenclature and you put 26the two quotes round the name.

. P-159

1A.
[Mr Irving]
Yes. 2Q.
[Mr Rampton]
"When Goebbels arrived in Berlin as Gauleichter in 1926 he 3was confronted by a city with 179,000 Jews, one third of 4all Jews in Germany and he made use of this fact. The 5Berlin population already receding because of the presence 6of these Jews. In the coming years Goebbels repeatedly 7explained to foreign diplomats that the problem there was 8the usual one in which the Jewish population 9disproportionately controlled all the lucrative 10professions. This rankled the Berlin's non-Jewish 11population of course and Goebbels, whether deliberately or 12by instinct, zeroed in on this as a wound that he could 13work on to promote the Nazi cause." 14 You seem to accept in that paragraph that 15Goebbels was right in thinking that the professions were 16disproportionately controlled by the Jews? 17A.
[Mr Irving]
Well, it was not just Goebbels; the German Federal 18Statistical Office has provided me with the figures. 19Q.
[Mr Rampton]
I am putting a marker down because this is something which 20you are going to have to argue with Professor Evans 21about. 22A.
[Mr Irving]
What the German Statistical Office told me? 23Q.
[Mr Rampton]
No. About what the fact was. 24A.
[Mr Irving]
Which fact? 25Q.
[Mr Rampton]
The one you have stated here. 26A.
[Mr Irving]
In other words, the disproportionate ----

. P-160

1Q.
[Mr Rampton]
"The Jewish population disproportionately controlled all 2the lucrative professions". I put a marker down. I am 3not going to argue about it now. 4A.
[Mr Irving]
We are just going to argue about the word "all", are we? 5Q.
[Mr Rampton]
No. Read the report, Mr Irving. 6A.
[Mr Irving]
Well, can I suggest that Professor Evans also reads what 7President Roosevelt said about precisely the same 8situation in Germany when he said, in fact he made the 9completely impossible statement that if he had been the 10Germans he would have acted in exactly the same way 11because of this disproportionate, this imbalance. 12Q.
[Mr Rampton]
I do not know about Professor Roosevelt. 13A.
[Mr Irving]
President Roosevelt. 14Q.
[Mr Rampton]
I am sorry. Everybody in this court is a professor except 15you and me, Mr Irving. "He was aided in this endeavour by 16the fact that his chief opponent there, Berlin's Deputy 17Police Chief who acted as though he was police chief, he 18was a real police chief, referred to him as being a chief, 19Dr Bernhard Weiss, a Jew, Weiss looked so much like a 20Jewish character, but his photographs did not need to be 21retouched by the Nazis. He was stereotypically semitic in 22feature, short with rounded ears and hooked nose and 23wearing spectacles." 24A.
[Mr Irving]
This is a description I took out of one of the 25contemporary Western newspapers I believe. 26Q.
[Mr Rampton]
We are not to take that as being any kind of endorsement

. P-161

1by you, are we, Mr Irving? 2A.
[Mr Irving]
No. There is actually a very good book on Bernhard Weiss 3written by a Professor of history Cologne University whose 4name escapes me, and he made precisely that point, that 5because of his appearance he was unfortunately doomed to 6become a target of the Nazis. 7Q.
[Mr Rampton]
He deserved to be persecuted by Dr Goebbels. 8A.
[Mr Irving]
That is not the words I used, Mr Rampton. But this is 9precisely the reason why I went to great lengths to locate 10his daughter in London and tried to obtain a different 11photograph of her father than the one the Nazis used. 12Q.
[Mr Rampton]
I have one more reference I think in this, maybe more than 13one I do not know, in this file K4, tab 4, page 33 at the 14bottom of the clip, my Lord. 15A.
[Mr Irving]
We are going to go out with a whimper. 16Q.
[Mr Rampton]
I doubt that, Mr Irving. It is not my style. We are not 17going to go out with a whimper. Page 17 at the top. This 18is you speaking to, and I will tell you who you are 19speaking to, somebody or people at Bow in London on 29th 20May 1992. You say: "I had a lot of trouble with Simon 21Wiesenthal yesterday, and I remember that three or four 22years ago I had the unnerving experience sitting in my 23rental car after I had been speaking in London, not London 24England but London Ontario, which is about 200 miles west 25Toronto and I had driven back to Toronto that night, the 26speaking was very exhausting and I got back in Toronto at

. P-162

1half past 2.00 on this November morning and as I drove up 2something street in Toronto, which is the main artery of 3Toronto, I pulled up at the traffic lights and glaring at 4me from the car next to me in the traffic lights was Simon 5Wiesenthal himself, his face hideously contorted by 6rage". So, evidently, Mr Irving, some things make him 7cross too. "I got a real shock because he looked into me 8through my driver's window and there was Mr Wiesenthal, 9this hideous, leering, evil face glaring at me, then 10I realised it wasn't Simon Wiesenthal, it was a Halloween 11mask [Applause]. 12 "Now, those of who you have seen Mr Wiesenthal 13will know what I'm talking about. Mrs Wiesenthal who has 14seen Mr Wiesenthal many times, of course, and she says to 15him at Halloween, 'Simon, please keep the mask on, you 16look so much nicer with it on'". That is just pure racist 17abuse, is it not, Mr Irving? 18A.
[Mr Irving]
On the contrary, the word "Jew" is not mentioned there 19from start to finish. The racism is in your mind, 20Mr Rampton. This is a reference to a person who is not 21one of the world's most attractive people. He is known 22for not being particularly attractive. Whether he is 23Jewish or not does not play any part at all. 24Q.
[Mr Rampton]
Mr Irving, really! Will you turn back to ---- 25A.
[Mr Irving]
If I pick on any other name and put that name to this, 26then it would never have occurred to suggest, if I pick on

. P-163

1any other race, but because Mr Wiesenthal is apparently 2Jewish, I do not know, but he presumably is Jewish, 3therefore, you say it is anti-Jewish. It is not. It is 4anti-ugly. 5Q.
[Mr Rampton]
Mr Irving, now we are going to end with a bang. Turn 6back, please, to the top of page 16, will you? 7A.
[Mr Irving]
Yes. 8Q.
[Mr Rampton]
"I have found governments being involved in trying to 9silence me in Canada and South Africa and Australia and 10I never used to believe in the existence of an 11international Jewish conspiracy". Pause there. Who is 12Simon or Simon Wiesenthal? Who is Simon Wiesenthal? 13A.
[Mr Irving]
He is an Austrian who has no connection at all with the 14Simon Wiesenthal Centre. 15Q.
[Mr Rampton]
Is he Jewish? 16A.
[Mr Irving]
I presume he is, yes. 17Q.
[Mr Rampton]
Right, and so now we are going to see the context in which 18you put his Halloween mask. "I never used to believe in 19the existence of an international Jewish conspiracy, and 20I am not even sure even now if there is an international 21Jewish conspiracy. All I know is that people are 22conspiring internationally against me and they do turn out 23mostly to be" -- in fact, the word must have been "Jews", 24must it not? 25A.
[Mr Irving]
I do not know. It does not say. 26Q.
[Mr Rampton]
Oh, come on. Look at the syntax of the sentence.

. P-164

1A.
[Mr Irving]
OK, let us assume it was "Jews", yes. 2Q.
[Mr Rampton]
"Applause, applause"? 3A.
[Mr Irving]
But that is precisely what we are going to be 4demonstrating to the court in the next few days, how much 5this international endeavour has been, unfortunately, 6guided by the self-appointed leaders of that community. 7Q.
[Mr Rampton]
If you are going to attempt that, you will have to give me 8notice. It is no part of your pleading and I shall have 9something to say about it because it has nothing to do 10with Mrs Lipstadt. 11A.
[Mr Irving]
Well, you will see -- oh, and indeed it does and that is, 12undoubtedly, the reason why I have put in bundle E global. 13MR JUSTICE GRAY: Well, that is a digression. We may have to 14come back to that. 15MR RAMPTON: A digression. But that inspiring observation, 16Mr Irving, was greeted with applause. Do you see that? 17A.
[Mr Irving]
Yes. 18Q.
[Mr Rampton]
Do you know why? 19A.
[Mr Irving]
Probably because they thought it was funny or that they 20were applauding the fact that I said there was no 21international Jewish conspiracy or because -- I do not 22know. What is your theory? 23Q.
[Mr Rampton]
They are very pleased that, in fact -- it is another of 24your clever, little sarcastic racist jokes about the Jews 25-- though you do not know there is an international 26Jewish conspiracy, it turns out most of the conspirators

. P-165

1are Jews? 2A.
[Mr Irving]
So, in other words, I am not allowed to criticise the fact 3that this community's self-appointed leaders around the 4world have set about trying to suppress freedom of speech, 5to abrogate my right to travel freely around the world, 6I am not allowed to criticise that because they are 7Jewish, is that right? On the contrary, if I find any 8person or any body of people, whether they are black or 9yellow or Asian or French or Germans or leading counsel, 10indeed, who are trying to abrogate my rights to freedom of 11speech and free right to travel, then I will criticise 12them without fear or favour. And the fact that this 13comment happens to be Jewish is neither here nor there. It 14cannot be construed as anti-Semitic. 15Q.
[Mr Rampton]
Shall we read on and see whether we agree with that, 16Mr Irving? "We have one basic problem and this is, apart 17from the literature displayed on the table over there, we 18have no national" -- I do not know who "we" are -- "organ 19that we can read to find out what is going on. I am not 20ashamed to say that I read the Jewish Chronicle to find 21out what they are doing because they seem pretty well 22informed". This is the sort of Aryan Defence League 23against the Jews, the "we", is it? 24A.
[Mr Irving]
Where do you get "Aryan Defence League" from? 25Q.
[Mr Rampton]
Well, who is the "we"? 26A.
[Mr Irving]
Well, I frequently find out what the Jewish organizations

. P-166

1are planning against me because it is announced in the 2Jewish Chronicle. They say, "Meet outside Mr Irving's 3flat, 81 Duke Street, 12.00 midday". That is how I know 4when these demonstrations are going to happen. 5Q.
[Mr Rampton]
It is not the Royal "we", Mr Irving. "I read the Jewish 6Chronicle to find out what we are doing". Who are the 7"we"? 8A.
[Mr Irving]
I have no idea. 9Q.
[Mr Rampton]
"There is an article here only a couple of weeks ago 10called 'Anti-Semites ask for cash in latest sophisticated 11forgery'" -- not, by any chance, the united anti-Semites 12then, the "we"? 13A.
[Mr Irving]
I have got no idea what the article is about. 14Q.
[Mr Rampton]
Well, you must have done because you mentioned it. 15A.
[Mr Irving]
Well, it certainly was not me so I cannot see what the 16reference is. 17Q.
[Mr Rampton]
"This is, of course, an unusual twist as it is not usually 18anti-Semites who are asking for cash in sophisticated 19forgeries. A man called Mr Mike Whine, the director of 20the board of deputies of British Jews", Mike W-H-I-N-E, 21you spell it ---- 22A.
[Mr Irving]
You will appreciate the reason why I do not like Mike 23Whine because I discovered that he is the person who has 24dedicated much of his life to destroying my career and 25livelihood by now, and that those documents are also in 26the bundle.

. P-167

1Q.
[Mr Rampton]
I might not like the black man who is my enemy, but I am 2not likely to use the fact that he is black in order to 3defend myself, am I, Mr Irving? 4A.
[Mr Irving]
I do not criticise anybody because of their colour, 5Mr Rampton. 6Q.
[Mr Rampton]
Then why do you make such again with Mr Whine's name? 7A.
[Mr Irving]
Because I am defensive about the man. The man has spent 8many years trying to destroy me. He has maintained a 9dossier full of the most evil and defamatory and lying 10facts about me which he puts to foreign governments with 11the intention of destroying my career, as we now know. 12Q.
[Mr Rampton]
You do not like Mr Whine. I understand that. 13A.
[Mr Irving]
With good reason, and because he is Jewish does not make 14him immune from my criticism. 15Q.
[Mr Rampton]
Precisely. But the fact that he is Jewish has nothing to 16do with your criticism either? 17A.
[Mr Irving]
I am perfectly entitled to make fun of his name among 18other ways of getting back at him. 19Q.
[Mr Rampton]
"I am bothered by their names". That is more people than 20just poor Mr Mike Wine, is it not? 21A.
[Mr Irving]
We had this in another speech too and I have listed a 22whole bunch of names, Wieseltier and so on. 23Q.
[Mr Rampton]
I am going to read on. Please be quiet. "I love them 24dearly, I really do, believe me. I love them very dearly, 25yet around the world they have these extraordinary names. 26In Australia the man who has defamed me so consistently

. P-168

1has now received from my lawyers in West Australia four 2libel writs. His name is Mr Izzy Leibler". 3A.
[Mr Irving]
Leibler, L E I B L E R. That has been misspelt. 4Q.
[Mr Rampton]
"Laughter". 5A.
[Mr Irving]
Yes, if a man's name is Leibler and he has received from 6me four libel writs, it seems singularly apposite. 7Q.
[Mr Rampton]
Mr Irving, that is a perfectly decent joke. It is a pity 8it is misspelt, is it not? 9A.
[Mr Irving]
It has been consider in your copy but I know how to spell 10properly. His name is L E I B L E R and his brother, Mark 11Leibler, spells it the same way, oddly enough. They are 12both multi-millionaires and they have used their money to 13try and destroy my career in Australia. 14Q.
[Mr Rampton]
I am sorry, L I E B L E R? 15MR JUSTICE GRAY: No, it is misspelt. It is L E I. That is 16the point. 17MR RAMPTON: Oh I see. 18A.
[Mr Irving]
Which is pronounced by any normal person as "libeller". 19He is careful to pronounce it as "leebeller". 20MR RAMPTON: Let us pass on, Mr Irving. "If I had a name like 21wine, W H I N E, or Leibler, it reminds me of Brentwood 22School, where I want to school. Perhaps I ought not to 23read out the name of the school. There was a boy in our 24class called Bottomwetten". 25A.
[Mr Irving]
There is another one called Jack Straw. 26Q.
[Mr Rampton]
"What bravery to carry the name of Bottomwetten, not only

. P-169

1just through your own life, but also through generations 2before you, passing this name proudly down. Whine, 3Leibler. I would be inclined to change my name by deed 4poll, not once but twice, in case anyone asked what my 5previous name was". I am going to pause there, Mr 6Irving. 7A.
[Mr Irving]
You will recognize this as the old gramophone record, you 8see. 9Q.
[Mr Rampton]
Yes. The old gramophone record, indeed I do. Mr Irving, 10when you were being cross-examined by me some days ago, 11there was a reference to a footnote in van Pelt's report, 12I think it was, it matters not, to a book edited by a lady 13called Deborah Burnstone. 14A.
[Mr Irving]
Yes. 15Q.
[Mr Rampton]
Do you remember that, when that was drawn to your 16attention, you pronounced that name "Bronsteen"? 17A.
[Mr Irving]
No, I do not. 18Q.
[Mr Rampton]
I will find it for you in the transcript. If I am right, 19why? 20A.
[Mr Irving]
I have no idea. I have no recollection of that episode at 21all. 22Q.
[Mr Rampton]
Why this interest in names? What does it matter what a 23person is called? 24A.
[Mr Irving]
You are putting this to me and I am hearing it for the 25first time. I am as astonished as you are. If I read it 26like that, then that was the way I read the name.

. P-170

1Q.
[Mr Rampton]
No. You did not read it like that. You knew that she was 2called Burnstone? 3A.
[Mr Irving]
Why would I know that she was called Burnstone? 4Q.
[Mr Rampton]
Because it is in the footnote and it was read out to you. 5A.
[Mr Irving]
If I misread it, misreadings do occur. You have been 6misreading words---- 7MR JUSTICE GRAY: Let us wait until we have found the docment. 8A.
[Mr Irving]
You have been repeatedly misreading words throughout the 9last few days but I have not commented on that. 10MR RAMPTON: "Do not worry. I will come back to it tomorrow. 11You may have a chance to answer properly. Let me go on. 12The problem is somebody has apparently issued a leaflet. 13I am sure that none of us here is personally responsible. 14The hoax, including a picture on the front cover of a 15notorious saisai" -- what is that? "Anti-Semitic forgery. 16The protocols of the learned elders of Zion. The covers 17cartoon which protects its serpent encircling the world 18used to have a traditional crude character of a hideous 19Jewish face, but it now includes instead a picture of 20Gerry Gable. I wonder how they spotted the difference." 21A.
[Mr Irving]
You know the connection with Gerry Gable, of course. Or 22shall I explain it to you? 23MR JUSTICE GRAY: I know it so you do not need to. 24MR RAMPTON: I do not want to know. 25A.
[Mr Irving]
Gerry Gable is also no friend of mine, so I am quite happy 26to describe him in these terms.

. P-171

1Q.
[Mr Rampton]
I see. Another of your enemies whom you insult by, as it 2were, comparing with a hideous Jewish face - is that 3right? 4A.
[Mr Irving]
Whether he is Jewish or not is neither here nor there. He 5is hideous, he is immoral, he has spent the last 36 years 6of his life trying to destroy me and my family because he 7has a criminal conviction for breaking into my house. 8Q.
[Mr Rampton]
But the insult which you have prepared -- apparently they 9thought it was jolly funny because they laughed -- for 10Mr Gable is that he should replace the hideous Jewish 11face, is it not?. 12A.
[Mr Irving]
Well, it certainly was not forged by me. I do know who 13did that but obviously other people hold the same opinion 14of Mr Gable as I do. 15Q.
[Mr Rampton]
My problems began in October of last year when I was 16speaking in Los Angeles and I received a letter from the 17Canadian government telling me not to come home on my 18projected tour of Canada which was to cover 17 cities from 19Vancouver right the way across to Ottawa. The Canadian 20governments had been alerted by the Simon Wiesenthal 21Institute in Los Angeles and immediately clicked their 22heels together and said "Ja vohl, Herr Wiesenthal, we will 23not let him in". Now tell me about this Wiesenthal 24again. I asked you before and you said, "Oh no, it is not 25the well known Simon Wiesenthal". 26A.
[Mr Irving]
Well, of course, H I E R is the director of the Wiesenthal

. P-172

1Centre. The Wiesenthal Centre in Los Angeles has no 2connection with Simon Wiesenthal apart from the concession 3they pay him every year for the use of his name. 4Q.
[Mr Rampton]
But it is a Jewish organization, is it? 5A.
[Mr Irving]
I imagine that they restrict their intake of employees to 6Jews, yes, but I have no information on that. 7Q.
[Mr Rampton]
I do not know about that, but it is some kind of Jewish 8institute in Los Angeles, no doubt in some part concerned 9with the history of the Holocaust? 10A.
[Mr Irving]
Yes, I have collaborated with them in the past with 11documents and things. 12Q.
[Mr Rampton]
Then comes the stuff about the Wiesenthal facial 13appearance and its comparison with the Halloween mask. 14A.
[Mr Irving]
I think I should explain. It may very well help his 15Lordship. This date is wrong on this. It is not 1992, it 16is definitely 1993, after I have had to go through the 17harrowing episode of being deported and handcuffed on the 18floor of an Air Canada plane, after I have been thrown out 19of Germany. All these things have happened as the result 20of the machinations of these people around the world, 21after I have been banned from Australia. So I am afraid 22you have the wrong year on this and suddenly everything 23clicks into place. I am perfectly entitled to criticise 24these people for what they have done to me. 25Q.
[Mr Rampton]
As we noticed before, when an anti-Semite is rattled or 26riled, out comes the anti-Semitic language.

. P-173

1A.
[Mr Irving]
No, critical language. This is unfortunately where you 2make a mistake, Mr Rampton. When you are critical of what 3the Jews do to you as Jews, it is not anti-Semitism. They 4are entitled to take their action against me as Jews but, 5if I criticise them, it becomes anti-Semitism. Have 6I understood correctly? 7Q.
[Mr Rampton]
No, you have not. I do not think you are trying, 8actually. 9A.
[Mr Irving]
I am trying very hard to understand the point that you are 10trying to make. 11Q.
[Mr Rampton]
The answer to one's enemies is not that they are ugly Jews 12with silly names, it is that they are acting badly, is it 13not? 14A.
[Mr Irving]
They were doing all of it. 15Q.
[Mr Rampton]
But what relevance is it that they have ugly Jewish faces 16and silly Jewish names? 17A.
[Mr Irving]
Well, you are talking about the ugly Jewish face. You are 18referring to the episode with the Halloween mask in which 19the word "Jew" does not figure. We are talking about a 20man who is well known for not being a particularly 21beautiful gentleman. 22Q.
[Mr Rampton]
What relevance has it to your defence against him that he 23happens not to be beautiful? 24A.
[Mr Irving]
I am just making fun of him. If I had made fun of any 25other person who was not Jewish, it would never have 26occurred to them to say this is anti-Semitism or

. P-174

1anti-Asian or anti-French. If I made fun of Monsieur 2Mitterand, for example, or Jacques Cherac, I would not be 3accused of being anti-French if I said that he had a 4ridiculous face that looked like a Halloween mask. I 5would be accused of being anti-Mitterand or anti-Cherac. 6But, because we are talking here about Wiesenthal, 7suddenly different rules apply. 8MR JUSTICE GRAY: Mr Rampton, when you reach a convenient 9moment? 10MR RAMPTON: I have not quite finished this, I am afraid. 11A.
[Mr Irving]
He is beginning to whimper a bit and he wants to find 12a---- 13MR JUSTICE GRAY: No, that is unnecessary. We will be here a 14long time if you go on. 15MR RAMPTON: You are not going to provoke me at this time of 16night, Mr Irving. I can do another two of these things or 17I can stop and do them in the morning. 18MR JUSTICE GRAY: Have you finished on this particular 19document? 20MR RAMPTON: I have finished on Wiesenthal. 21MR JUSTICE GRAY: Then I think, in all the circumstances, we 22will adjourn until 10.30 until tomorrow morning. 23< (The witness withdrew)24 (The court adjourned until the following day)2526