It is at the end of Psalm 137. This poem is a bitter lamentation and cry for vengeance by those who were themselves subject to mass murder and exile from Jerusalem into Babylon. It begins with the famous lines about weeping by the waters of Babylon, and concludes by crying out for vengeance against those who urged the Babylonian armies to killing and destruction. Here are the concluding lines in the recent translation of Alter: "Recall, O Lord, the Edomites, on the day of [the destruction of] Jerusalem, saying "Raze it, raze it, to its foundation!" Daughter of Babylon the despoiler, happy who pays you back in kind, for what you did to us. Happy who seizes and smashes your infants against the rock."

It is a total perversion of Judaism to read this as anything but a cry of despair. It is never interpreted as a divine commandment. On the contrary, the Torah is generally against vengeance, having many passages against it. The exception is a defensive war, but even there, strict limits exist, including doing everything to avoid the death of non-combatants. The written Torah was interpreted extensively in later Jewish tradition, generally pushing everything in the direction of being as humane and peaceful as possible, while preserving the right of self-defense.

Indeed, in the current war the Israeli phone calls to civilians to vacate anything to be bombed is a reflection of Jewish law on protecting non-combatants.

Unfortunately today's weaponry is so powerful and hard to control that it often kills non-combatants, against traditional Jewish law. This leads to difficult moral dilemmas even for the most conscientious leaders of a war. (Of course Hamas has no problems about targeting non-combatants, including any Jew around the world they feel like targeting.)

Here is a very thoughtful discussion of Jewish and other views on war, in the current context of the Israel-Palestine wars:

In crediting the Israelis for their efforts to limit civilian casualities, I am not saying that this war was necessary. It may well have been, but I just don't know enough to judge the situation from this distance.

I do know that it is horrible and sickening. I fear that nothing good will come of it, though I would be very happy if it turns out to be the last battle of a 60 year war.

In any case I pray for the safety of non-combatants, and for a quick and lasting peace.

> First, let me dissociate myself from gohebrew’s comments. Where in the Bible does it recommend smashing babies?

I am surprized that you are not familiar with this famous statement from King David. Over a million Jews say it daily, as we recite it as an introduction to the Grace After Meals in chapter 137, verse 9. Look it up.

How can the Bible advise such a cruel response to a seemingly innocent baby?

If you knew that baby would eventually grow up and murder your grandchildren as a suicide bomber, you would then see that act of smashing as true kindness.

GoHebrew, you have not read my discussion of the passage, above. Your reasoning about it--"If you knew the baby would grow up" etc.--is odious and would license every kind of cruelty. It is the reasoning of dogmatists and fanatics. It assumes that you are both certain to be right, and certain about the future--both of which are impossible, but fanatics regularly assume they know. This arrogance licenses war and cruelty.

Such reasoning is not part of Jewish law, and it is very irresponsible to misrepresent it as you have. It gives a very false and perverted impression of Jewish tradition.

Such statements are not scholarship or piety, but poisonous rubbish. Read Rabbi Gopin's thoughtful and fair discussion of these issues, linked above.

> If America and all its allies turn its back on Israel, Israel would be nothing. As far as religion are you saying Christians are fake and our beliefs?

First, I believe that even if America and its allies turn its back..., I trust G-d would do open miracles for Israel, like in the Six Day War and when Irag sent 39 missiles over Israel. America and its allies support Israel for their own interests.

No, I am not saying this at all. The Talmud advises us to accept wisdom from every source, not only Jewish. There are many great wise terachings from Jesus, and great examples of selfless humanity from among the Christians.

Besides being long winded, like many scholarly papers, I failed to see the basis in Torah writings. It seemed closer to his own thinkin, with a few scattered sources. It you looked at his footnotes, he fails to show how even one source applies to his point.

Perhaps, you want to summarize in a few paragraphs his main points.

What I presented above is pure and simple logic. No Israeli wants to go to war, to conquer, to die in battle. All Israelis would much rather picnic with their families.

I think that the tolerance level for Hamas crap and their missiles led Israel to say, 'enough is enough'.

When Hamas is destroyed, and Palestinians want to coexist, there will be lasting peace. In the meantime, those that seek Israel's destructiom will be destroyed.

Israel, Gopin is an Orthodox Rabbi as well as an academic expert on negotiation and peace. He has very extensive knowledge of the sacred texts on this issue. In his article he only cited the most key ones, because his audience were not Torah scholars.

I see now that Gopin is on the Board of Brit Tzedek v'Shalom, the pro-Israel pro-peace organization.

I listened to [[http://btvshalom.org/resources/20090107_au.html|this long discussion]] of the current situation, which he did in a phone call from Jerusalem to Brit Tzedek people in the US. I felt for the first time that I was starting to understand what is going on.

I would be interested in what Aziz's reaction to it is. It is, as you say, long winded, but very good also.

I found his statement that the key to progress involves "deep compassion for both sides" moving and true, and what I was trying to say to Aziz above.

As to "pure and simple logic", I don't think you understand logic, because your argument is anything but logical. I will post later on this, and also answer Aziz's question on religion and state.

Israel, you quote sources with such adeptness, I fear that someone may think that you actually understand them. As far as I'm concerned you show about as much understanding as my neighbor's cat.

>If an Arab wants to kill a Jew, it is a mitzvah, a mitzvah, to kill him first.

No it is an averah, a sin, known as murder. You are NOT permitted to kill someone for what they think or want. If someone raises a knife to me I am permitted to stab him first, or raises a gun to shoot me, can shoot him first. But that is something he DOES, not thinks, and it puts me in immanent danger of losing my life. Only then is lethal self-defense permitted. Even then, Maimonides says that if I have another way to stop him, it is murder if I don't instead use the non-lethal method to stop him.

I'm sure my wife wanted to kill me quite a few times, but that doesn't give me permission to kill her first. By your standards, every husband and wife would be dead in short order.

>I’m not advocating a license to kill babies, just those that will end up murdering Jews. Are you such a liberal non-religious Jew to prefer not to see this?

No, I prefer not to advocate wickedness. You don't know what that baby will do when he or she grows up and it is height of arrogance and wickedness for anyone to decide in advance that an innocent baby will one day deserve death, and to act on that now. That is terrorist thinking, and everyone should repudiate it.

> No it is an averah, a sin, known as murder. You are NOT permitted to kill someone for what they think or want.

This is clearly inaccurate according to Torah or Biblical law.

See Rashi's commentary about Abraham, when non-Jews merely plotted in their thoughts to harm him. As a result of these wrongful thoughts, thoughts, they were rendered 'chayav meetah m'ya'dei shamayim' - they are liable for heavenly death.

Also, the law in Shulchan Orech regarding non-Jewish bandits who seek to steal wheat on the border, then even if the day is the Sabbath,and the victims are law-abiding Sabbath-observant folks, nevertheless Shulchan Orech instructs the victims to exit their home on the Sabbath, and kill, yes kill, the non-Jewish bandits on the Sabbath. Why? If they only intended to steal, really they also intended to kill.

Judaism promotes murder if the purpose is save Jewish life, regardless of whether you think it's mennshickiet or not.

> I’m sure my wife wanted to kill me quite a few times, but that doesn’t give me permission to kill her first. By your standards, every husband and wife would be dead in short order.

This is foolish. As an intelligent articulate person, how cn you present such silly argument?

Domestic tranquilty, knowns as 'shalom bait', is the aim of observing every detail of Torah laws. The goal is not to promote watton murder of the heads of a household, but rather to do almost everything tobring the coupl together. Look at Moses' older brother Aaron who even lied to bring a couple to love each other again.

The Israeli baby may be murdered by a Hamas missile, but heaven forfend if the Palestinian baby is hurt. His or her p[arents who raiise him or her to become a suicide bomber is really innocent, just a product of his or her poverty.

But the Israeli baby deserves to dies, because he or she has a few bucks.

Israel, Rashi's commentary is about what GOD decided to do, not what men and women are permitted to do. It doesn't surprise me that you mix up Man and God, given that the rest of your analysis is so muddled. I have had enough, and won't track down how you've misinterpreted the passage from Shulchan Aruch.

I really hope another Chabadnik will come on here and repudiate your pseudo-scholarship. Meanwhile, have a peaceful Shabbat, and I hope next week you'll stop posting this hateful stuff.

And yes, though I don't know whether Israel should have started this latest battle, I pray that they win a better situation afterwards: no rockets coming into the South, and no suicide bombers. I also pray that the leaders in Gaza will be devoted to building up their people, instead of being obsessed with tearing down Israel.

No, that is your interpretation of how I think. I would never consider that killing babies is a solution. I believe you suggested it, by justifying those actions to preserve your grandchildren you justify the actions of your “enemies”.

The Bible says that happy is the one who smashes their babies against the wall.

If that baby murders later in life, happy is the one who smashes him or her early on.

If you knew that baby would eventually grow up and murder your grandchildren as a suicide bomber, you would then see that act of smashing as true kindness.

In order to logicaly debate, the issues upon which we disagree must be delineated and understood, and the issues upon which we agree must also be delineated and understood.

What do we agree upon?

The currently ruling government in Gaza of Hamas rejects Israel's right to exist, and has acted violently to murder Israelis for many years through missiles and suicide bombers.

If Hamas ceased to exist or be of no influence upon the Gazan people, then there would be no more war in Gaza, and the Israelis would harm no one anymore in Gaza.

Do we agree upon this?

Does Israel have the right to defend its people?

If Hamas hides behind the Gazan people, does Israel have a right to defend its people, even if Gazans will be harmed or killed in the process of innocent Israeli people?

Upon what do we disagree?

I agree that no human being can decide that a baby will ultimately become a murderer or a suicide bomber, and be killed still as a baby.

No ordinary human being is so endowered in determining the future.

My point is with regard to clear obviously factors. What are those? They are nothing that we are familiar with.

In Torah laws, there is a distinction between chayav mitah b'yadei shamaya'im, and ...b'yadei adam.

In the example of Abraham, this is a case of chayav mitah b'yadei shamaya'im, where a person is liable to be killed through the agency of heaven. Certainly, a nation which seeks the destruction of Israel is in the category of being liable to be killed through the agency of heaven.

In the case brought in Shulchan Orech and quoted repeatedly by the late seventh Lubavitcher Rebbe of thieves who steal wheat on a border town, this is a case of people who are liable to be killed through the agency of people. Certainly, a nation which seeks to harm Israel is in the category of being liable to be killed through the agency of people.

No Chabadnik, like no yirat shamayim, would dispute these words.

I also hope that Israel's enemies are completely eradicated. I hope the Palestinians too have a government interested in making people, and having a people grow to their true potential.

So do you believe now? You brought up the past history with bias point of view. I showed you the the parts of history you neglected to show along with your claim.

gohebrew

Why are you so angry? It is a crime when an innocent child (people) falls victim to war no matter what side. Having said that it is not a crime to liquidate terrorist, suicide bombers, and , any other merchant of chaos.

To sympathize with the poor Palestinians on account of Israeli aggression exists in the same breath as condemnation of Israeli civilians, even if they are school children, because Israel's army is stronger that Hamas and do not deserve our pity.

When the Israel Defense Force systematically destroys Hamas, these creative giants shout in protest. The poor Palestinians are being harmed!

Let's us recall that Hamas came to power because of these same Palestinians. Let us not forget that when Iraq threw SCUD missiles to destroy innocent Israelis, but were miraculously saved by open miracles from G-d, while the Palestinians danced on roof-tops, hoping the missiles would kill innocent Israelis. On 9/11, these same Palestinians distributed candies to their children, as Allah was great and innocent people died in the US. Aziz can confirm this sick custom.

So, do you understand my anger at such hypocracy? Do you understand why I have not even a drop of sympathy for the Palestians?

If Hamas are buried in mass graves together with the poor Palestinians, then after a very short time, nobody in Europe will blink an eye. Their death will be quickly forgotten. So, we see how limited is their concern.

> Let’s us recall that Hamas came to power because of these same Palestinians.

So you don't care if Palestinians elections were democratic!
Democracy is what Israel decides it is?!

> When Iraq threw SCUD missiles to destroy innocent Israelis ...
... the Palestinians danced on roof-tops
> On 9/11, these same Palestinians distributed candies to their children.

1. The 2 above-mentioned crimes were not commmited by Palestinians.
... You know better who!
2. The so called "Israelis" are not innocent.
.... They made Palestinians homeless+prisoners in their homeland?http://typophile.com/node/53099#comment-320712
3. Non-Palestinians danced also, will you launch more aggressions on non-Israelis?! Or you are too tolerant with Non-Palestinians?

Hope you understand my anger at such hypocracy?

>> If Hamas are buried in mass graves together with the poor Palestinians,
then after a very short time, nobody in Europe will blink an eye.
Their death will be quickly forgotten.

Aziz, why do you think that that web site has any credibility? It is by white racists and neo-Nazis who have as much contempt for you as for me. It is full of lies.

By linking to that, it seems to me that you are just looking for reasons to hate, not to understand both sides, and get to peace.

If you want to understand the thinking of a liberal Jew who is sympathetic to Israel and also treasures Palestinian lives and sincerely wants peace, I can help you. If you just want to collect reasons to hate, no matter how false or incredible, I can't help you.

Did you notice that Aziz did not argue about the facts that the Palestinian did vote for the irrational and hateful Hamas party, gave out candies to their children on the original 9/11, or danced on the roof-tops during the Iraqi's SKUD missile attacks.

Aziz, do you deny this?

Rather, he pointed out that it was a democratic election, and that others danced too.

Whn the German people freely elected Hilter's Nazi party, this was the beginning of their own downfall, that to this very day many German youth come to Israel to do community service, to reduce their feelings of guilt. Here, the Palestinians feel no quilt.

Only a very evil people feel no quilt. Rather, they think that they are right, like Aziz's twisted attitute.

You will see that Hamas will prefer that the Palestinian people die by the thousands than to agree to a true cease-fire, and not to missiles into Israeli civilian centers.

In the end, I hop;e there will be true peace, and the Palestinians, like the Hamas, which hate Israelis with a passion, will be totally eradicated.

> When Iraq threw SCUD missiles to destroy innocent Israelis ...
... the Palestinians danced on roof-tops
> On 9/11, these same Palestinians distributed candies to their children.

1. The 2 above-mentioned crimes were not committed by Palestinians.
... You better know who committed them! Why eradicating them?
2. The so called “Israelis” are not innocent.
.... They made Palestinians homeless+prisoners in their homeland.http://typophile.com/node/53099#comment-320712
... and what befalls on the enemy does please friends..
3. Non-Palestinians danced also, will you launch more aggressions on non-Palestinians?! Or you are too tolerant with non-Palestinians?
4. If a man kills your son and another man dances for that,
... will you kill the killer or the dancer first?

Israel, in the Talmud, Berachot lOa, Beruria admonishes her husband Rabbi Meir, saying that he should not pray for the death of sinners, but of sin. Similarly, you should hope not for the death of haters, but of hate. Yes, the state of Israel must defend itself, but we should not kill compassion--not least because it is the best hope of finding a way to live with others.

HEHEHE.......All joking aside, the reason I presented theses pictures is because AzizMostafa wanted prove history was against him and his people. However he failed to mention his comrade Amin Al Husseini who like I mentioned had allot to do with implanting the seed of evil in modern Palestine.

WTF, and I say this with kindest words how can I be a Zionists i am not even a Jew (Christian). Second you choose to believe what you want to believe history cannot be erased. I will not give you the satisfaction by reading biased material. Neo Nazis propaganda+AzizMostafa= mindless babel.

Read Mein Kampf after all it is # 1 in Middle East, I don't know why Hitler hated you most of all?

> I know Bosniaks (Bosnian) who study the Koran
who do not want any part of the Middle Eastern problems.

1. What did UN+US do to the Bosniaks? They were stripped of Chile-like land so that they would not get any access to the sea.
2. The Middle Eastern problems were created by the West.
To solve problems is to eradicate the causes not the consequences.
A state built on lies wont last. Remember South Africa.
So give back the land to its owner and allow all those who were cheated to migrate to the wrongfully created "Israel" to collect their belongings and go back home. According to Islam, Christianity+Judaism.