I'm no fan of Venditte but if Tulo goes on the DL you can bring him back up. His value as a defensive player is negligible when he is hitting this bad (and it isn't the first season in his career he has done this).

I'm no fan of Venditte but if Tulo goes on the DL you can bring him back up. His value as a defensive player is negligible when he is hitting this bad (and it isn't the first season in his career he has done this).

I mean in the case where Tulo's injury isn't serious enough to warrant a DL stint but they want to rest him for a couple days. Otherwise, I agree with you.

I mean in the case where Tulo's injury isn't serious enough to warrant a DL stint but they want to rest him for a couple days. Otherwise, I agree with you.

We'll see when the line-up comes out today.

Even though he hasn't played at SS much in his career, for a couple games here and there, you could probably put Barney there and come out okay, or even shift Travis over and have Barney play 2B. It's not ideal, but it's an option, and it makes more sense than wasting a roster spot on Goins. And, I mean, if they really wanted to, they could easily send Venditte down when they wanted to rest Tulo instead of making that move now, and have a little more depth in the pen, as questionable as that depth may be.

I mean in the case where Tulo's injury isn't serious enough to warrant a DL stint but they want to rest him for a couple days. Otherwise, I agree with you.

We'll see when the line-up comes out today.

Even though he hasn't played at SS much in his career, for a couple games here and there, you could probably put Barney there and come out okay, or even shift Travis over and have Barney play 2B. It's not ideal, but it's an option, and it makes more sense than wasting a roster spot on Goins. And, I mean, if they really wanted to, they could easily send Venditte down when they wanted to rest Tulo instead of making that move now, and have a little more depth in the pen, as questionable as that depth may be.

I'm saying maybe they want to keep Tulo out of the line up for the next few days because he left the game last night with a hamstring problem. If he is out today with that injury (but not serious enough for a 15 day DL stint) and they play Barney and Travis in the middle infield and Barney or Travis gets hurt, then what?

I mean in the case where Tulo's injury isn't serious enough to warrant a DL stint but they want to rest him for a couple days. Otherwise, I agree with you.

We'll see when the line-up comes out today.

Even though he hasn't played at SS much in his career, for a couple games here and there, you could probably put Barney there and come out okay, or even shift Travis over and have Barney play 2B. It's not ideal, but it's an option, and it makes more sense than wasting a roster spot on Goins. And, I mean, if they really wanted to, they could easily send Venditte down when they wanted to rest Tulo instead of making that move now, and have a little more depth in the pen, as questionable as that depth may be.

I'm saying maybe they want to keep Tulo out of the line up for the next few days because he left the game last night with a hamstring problem. If he is out today with that injury (but not serious enough for a 15 day DL stint) and they play Barney and Travis in the middle infield and Barney or Travis gets hurt, then what?

You move Martin to 2B and Barney/Travis to SS and make do for the single game that you deal with the situation. Or you put Paredes at 2B and move Barney/Travis to SS. Again, for that single game that you have to worry about it.

You move Martin to 2B and Barney/Travis to SS and make do for the single game that you deal with the situation. Or you put Paredes at 2B and move Barney/Travis to SS. Again, for that single game that you have to worry about it.

Exactly. There are options on the roster that minimize Goins' value right now. With the offence and bullpen struggling the way they are, there's no reason to keep a defensive specialist who's not producing at the plate on the roster. The team can manage for a couple games with a defensive downgrade. Right now, they can't manage with another hole in the batting order.

And, as for Venditte, he could have been sent down to make room for someone else in the pen - like maybe Browning - who's been excellent in his minor league career so far - or Stilson, or some of the other minor league vets they have down there that could potentially make for a reasonable relief arm.

I'm not sure how much Grilli has left in the tank, but there is no doubt the Jays pen needed a bit of a shakeup. Minor move, but at least it's a start! Hard to deal this early in the year, only get the teams way out of the race like the Braves wanting to trade now.

The Jays are 5.5 GBL Baltimore in the American League East. Toronto is also just 2.5 games from first (Boston) in the AL wildcard race.

The Blue Jays currently rank 17th in MLB with 255 runs scored and are on pace to finish with 677. Through 61 games last season, the Blue Jays had scored 325 runs en route to finishing with an MLB-best 891 -- 127 more than the next best team. Toronto also ranks 26th in team average (.234) in 2016 after finishing second in baseball at .269 in 2015.

Not the best Jays debut, but still pretty cool to see Guelph's Scott Diamond in a Jays uniform! Been able to follow him around a little bit over the years...few IBL games with the Royals, then saw him beat the Jays in Minnesota a few years back (7 shutout innings) and went to agame in Rochester when he was with the Red Wings. With the Jays desperate for a reliable lefty arm out of the pen, hopefully Scott can make the most of his opportunity.

The Jays are 5.5 GBL Baltimore in the American League East. Toronto is also just 2.5 games from first (Boston) in the AL wildcard race.

The Blue Jays currently rank 17th in MLB with 255 runs scored and are on pace to finish with 677. Through 61 games last season, the Blue Jays had scored 325 runs en route to finishing with an MLB-best 891 -- 127 more than the next best team. Toronto also ranks 26th in team average (.234) in 2016 after finishing second in baseball at .269 in 2015.

The Jays are 5.5 GBL Baltimore in the American League East. Toronto is also just 2.5 games from first (Boston) in the AL wildcard race.

The Blue Jays currently rank 17th in MLB with 255 runs scored and are on pace to finish with 677. Through 61 games last season, the Blue Jays had scored 325 runs en route to finishing with an MLB-best 891 -- 127 more than the next best team. Toronto also ranks 26th in team average (.234) in 2016 after finishing second in baseball at .269 in 2015.

The Jays are 5.5 GBL Baltimore in the American League East. Toronto is also just 2.5 games from first (Boston) in the AL wildcard race.

The Blue Jays currently rank 17th in MLB with 255 runs scored and are on pace to finish with 677. Through 61 games last season, the Blue Jays had scored 325 runs en route to finishing with an MLB-best 891 -- 127 more than the next best team. Toronto also ranks 26th in team average (.234) in 2016 after finishing second in baseball at .269 in 2015.

The Jays are 5.5 GBL Baltimore in the American League East. Toronto is also just 2.5 games from first (Boston) in the AL wildcard race.

The Blue Jays currently rank 17th in MLB with 255 runs scored and are on pace to finish with 677. Through 61 games last season, the Blue Jays had scored 325 runs en route to finishing with an MLB-best 891 -- 127 more than the next best team. Toronto also ranks 26th in team average (.234) in 2016 after finishing second in baseball at .269 in 2015.

MLB slide rule: Start the slide before the bag. Slide in the line of the bag. Don't slide past the bag.

Pillar managed to get called out on replay for this rule while doing those three things. Baseball is absolutely broken.

Yup stupidest rule I've ever seen. What else could Pillar have done there? The only reason Pillar made any contact with the second baseman is because he stuck his leg directly in Pillar's path. Just beyond comprehension.

Not that I like it, but after the 4 slide rules, hit the dirt first, don't slide over the bag, etc... there is a no roll block rule, which is apparantly what they thought he did. So that at least comforts me in the sense that they're applying the rules correctly, the rules still stink though.

Then I was thinking. Don't slide. Just run up to the bag. The infielder throwing to second will have to throw around you. Can't call an illegal slide for that.

Then I was thinking. Don't slide. Just run up to the bag. The infielder throwing to second will have to throw around you. Can't call an illegal slide for that.

I'm not 100% sure, but, I think that, as part of these new rules, players have to slide if it's going to be a close enough play.

I understand the spirit of the rule and I'm all for protecting players from concussions, but, clearly, there's still a ways to go for them to find the right balance here. The takeout slide is part of the game. You can setup the rules to allow it and protect the fielder at the same time.

Then I was thinking. Don't slide. Just run up to the bag. The infielder throwing to second will have to throw around you. Can't call an illegal slide for that.

I'm not 100% sure, but, I think that, as part of these new rules, players have to slide if it's going to be a close enough play.

I understand the spirit of the rule and I'm all for protecting players from concussions, but, clearly, there's still a ways to go for them to find the right balance here. The takeout slide is part of the game. You can setup the rules to allow it and protect the fielder at the same time.

The rule is fine but they aren't applying it with any common sense. The "absolutely no contact with the fielder" part is what needs to change. They need to allow some contact otherwise fielders will exploit the rule like what happened with Pillar.

The Jays and Indians are getting two different strikezones. Tabler's solution "expand the zone". Which one, Tomlin is getting the high fastball, the low fastball and the pitch 6 inches off the plate outside.

The Jays and Indians are getting two different strikezones. Tabler's solution "expand the zone". Which one, Tomlin is getting the high fastball, the low fastball and the pitch 6 inches off the plate outside.

Did something happen with Edwin? I saw something on twitter but it got lost in the FA stuff.

The Jays and Indians are getting two different strikezones. Tabler's solution "expand the zone". Which one, Tomlin is getting the high fastball, the low fastball and the pitch 6 inches off the plate outside.

Did something happen with Edwin? I saw something on twitter but it got lost in the FA stuff.

Donaldson got wrung up on a strike three off the plate and went to take the walk on it so Carpazzio got his chest out. He called Edwin out on an even worse strike 3 call. Edwin turned in on him and yelled. Carpazzio tossed him and then Edwin very slightly nudged the ump so that's probably going to give him an extra game suspension. Gibbons came out and Carpazzio threw him out too although Gibbons did very little.

The Jays and Indians are getting two different strikezones. Tabler's solution "expand the zone". Which one, Tomlin is getting the high fastball, the low fastball and the pitch 6 inches off the plate outside.

Did something happen with Edwin? I saw something on twitter but it got lost in the FA stuff.

Donaldson got wrung up on a strike three off the plate and went to take the walk on it so Carpazzio got his chest out. He called Edwin out on an even worse strike 3 call. Edwin turned in on him and yelled. Carpazzio tossed him and then Edwin very slightly nudged the ump so that's probably going to give him an extra game suspension. Gibbons came out and Carpazzio threw him out too although Gibbons did very little.

I was at the game and it was LONG (believe 2nd longest in team history)!

Carapazza was an absolute joke out there today, didn't have a clue about balls and strikes, while having a very quick temper.

The crowd went absolutely crazy for Goins and he did a heck of a job! Barney may have given up the winning run, but he did an awesome job as well. It can't be easy taking the mound as a position player with the game on the line like that. The Indians should have been doing likewise, but decided to throw Bauer out there instead, so the small consolation prize is that their rotation is a bit messed up now and they will most likely have to call up someone to spot start.

If Estrada doesn;t come back for a while, I don't see how they can move Sanchez to the bullpen. I mean he is an All-Star in his first year as a starter. That decision would be puzzling.

As for trade chips, I don't know their prospect pool well enough, however, I still think they might trade one of Bautista/Encarnacion. If they know they can't sign both of them next year, they can be tempted to move one of them at the deadline for some pitching.

If Estrada doesn;t come back for a while, I don't see how they can move Sanchez to the bullpen. I mean he is an All-Star in his first year as a starter. That decision would be puzzling.

As for trade chips, I don't know their prospect pool well enough, however, I still think they might trade one of Bautista/Encarnacion. If they know they can't sign both of them next year, they can be tempted to move one of them at the deadline for some pitching.

If Estrada doesn;t come back for a while, I don't see how they can move Sanchez to the bullpen. I mean he is an All-Star in his first year as a starter. That decision would be puzzling.

As for trade chips, I don't know their prospect pool well enough, however, I still think they might trade one of Bautista/Encarnacion. If they know they can't sign both of them next year, they can be tempted to move one of them at the deadline for some pitching.

Hopefully Sanchez stays in the rotation and then plug Hutchison into Estrada's spot if he is still hurting.

Not really a whole lot to give up on the roster. I don't want to give up Goins even though he is now a bench piece, suppose one of Smoak or Colabello could go?, and open to trading Bautista but he would never waive his no-trade clause to do so. Down on the farm there isn't a whole lot of trade chips after blowing through them last year.

I feel the Jays will just be doing some minor tinkering this trade deadline, but will be pleasantly surprised if they add a piece that could put them over the top. I would prefer pitching help, but those Jay Bruce rumours just don't want to go away.

I'm not as up on the Jays prospects as some, but it seems to me the best and most likely thing to happen is a couple smaller deals to bolster the bull pen. That's probably where they'll find the best improvement for the smallest investment.

They're likely running with the starters they have unless they can luck into a #5 guy cheaply.

Just all sorts of dumb. I'm sure they didn't mean it in a demeaning to the BLM cause kind of way, but, still . . . just so much no. Not the right message. Not the right way to express the message. Just straight up not right.

People have been going through the guys past social media posts and turns out he's unsurprisingly a lunatic. Among other things, he believes that the world is flat and we're all being tricked by NASA or something.

Uh speaking of Canada, I guess:http://www.sportsnet.ca/baseball/mlb/j-happ-qa-talking-fastballs-basketball-blue-jays-milk/

HAPP!

Quote

Kristina Rutherford: You must be more familiar with Toronto now, having lived here before.

Happ: Yeah, I feel a lot more comfortable in the city this time around. Iím liking it more and more. Iím happy to be back.

Is there anything youíre still not used to in Canada?

I think Iíve gotten used to most of the stuff. Grocery shopping is a little different. I still donít understand the bagged milk situation here.

What?

You guys sell milk in bags and I donít really get why, or what you do then with the bags. Other than that it seems like Canadaís doing a pretty good job. [Laughs.] But I donít get the milk. Put it in a gallon jug so you donít have the sloppy, messy bag.

You know you put the bag in a milk jug, right?

Whereís the jug? Do you have to buy the jug separately? Why are they not in the jug already?

Oh my gosh. You have to ask someone at the grocery store for help.

Why do I have to ask? I should just grab it from the counter and it should be ready for me to drink.

Thereís an assumption that you know to put the bag in a milk jug and cut it open.

[Laughs]. They canít assume that. Iíve never bought it because I see this bag of milk and Iím like I donít get what I can do with this thing.

J.A., I canít believe this.

[Laughs.] We need a memo sent out to all American players on how Canada dispenses its milk. Would you prefer to have a gallon of milk or a bag or milk? You can pick up a gallon and walk out of the store. Or you can try to figure out how to drink your bagged milk.

I agree. Bags are a hassle to store, albeit not as clunky as a gallon jug.I'm just laughing because he's in his fourth year here and has somehow been able to forgo a milk jug (probably emptying it into a pitcher -- haha).

I agree. Bags are a hassle to store, albeit not as clunky as a gallon jug.I'm just laughing because he's in his fourth year here and has somehow been able to forgo a milk jug (probably emptying it into a pitcher -- haha).

I agree. Bags are a hassle to store, albeit not as clunky as a gallon jug.I'm just laughing because he's in his fourth year here and has somehow been able to forgo a milk jug (probably emptying it into a pitcher -- haha).

I agree. Bags are a hassle to store, albeit not as clunky as a gallon jug.I'm just laughing because he's in his fourth year here and has somehow been able to forgo a milk jug (probably emptying it into a pitcher -- haha).

I bet he's just buying Cartons. The coward's way out.

Hey, I buy milk in the carton because 4L is too much milk for me to guarantee that I get through it before it goes bad given that every few days I pull 36-40 hour shifts so I'm not home to drink it.

The Blue Jays sported their best w/l record (51-40) at the All-Star break this year, not seen since the 1992 season, the year in which they won their first of two World Series titles. A potent of great things to come?

Rumours, rumours rumours.....the MLB trade deadline is fast approaching and the question is, what will the Blue Jays do, if anything?

"Big Papi" David Ortiz, of the Boston Red Sox, has let it be known that the Jays Edwin Encarnacion would be welcome in Boston.Encarnacion, who remains unsigned, and he let it be known (through his agent during this year's spring training), that he preferred signing a new contract at season's end. With the way Encarnacion is playing, he'll be up for a big payday (unless Jays management has other plans).

What of the 35 year old Bautista who's having among his worst starts to his season, injuries and all?

Blue Jays in first place in the A.L. East Division after a 9-1 drubbing of the Baltimore Orioles at the Rogers Centre yesterday afternoon.

The Jays scored seven runs in the fifth inning, while J.A. Happ, Jays' starting pitcher, got the win. Happ is now 14-3 on the year, which leaves him tied with four others in the league, leading In the win column.

I agree - but Thole shouldn't even be in the MLB... I know it's a minor complaint relative to the rest of the team. I just worry if Martin gets hurt, you're basically giving the opposing team a free out every time he comes up to bat.

He is, but he doesn't have much experience behind the plate at the MLB level. The A's moved him out to 3B for a good reason. He definitely wouldn't be my first choice. If Martin were to get hurt for any length of time, I'd rather see the Jays give Jimenez a shot. He's not likely to be a significant producer, but he's put up respectable enough numbers in the minors that he might not be a complete offensive blackhole.

Apparently there is something to do with LED lights or something that other teams/players have complained about in Houston. Orioles set a record for strikeouts in a series or something like that there recently.

Holy cow, Atkins is on his way to Houston to discuss the Sanchez situation with the Blue Jays coaching staff and Sanchez himself! I hope they can sort this out in a way that it doesn't negatively affect the clubhouse. I personally don't understand why they don't go to a 6 man rotation and then put Sanchez into the bullpen once the playoffs start. What if the Jays are in the wild card game? Don't you want Sanchez starting that game?

Apparently there is something to do with LED lights or something that other teams/players have complained about in Houston. Orioles set a record for strikeouts in a series or something like that there recently.

I wouldn't worry too much about it yet.

The radio broadcast mentioned the LED lights were whiter/brighter, which caused some haze effects; coupled with the lack of a true batters' eye out in center, it's clearly a contributing factor to visiting teams. No big deal though.

In other news:https://sports.vice.com/ca/highlight/watch-marcus-stroman-show-other-canadian-superstars-how-to-throw-a-fastball

The radio broadcast mentioned the LED lights were whiter/brighter, which caused some haze effects; coupled with the lack of a true batters' eye out in center, it's clearly a contributing factor to visiting teams. No big deal though.

On the TV broadcast, they also noted how hard it can become to get a grip in the batter's box from the midpoint of the game, which would increase the levels of discomfort. That could also contribute to some of the issues.

Basically, there are a number of issues with an otherwise beautiful stadium from a baseball POV.

For a little statistical context it looks like the Astros pitchers in Houston tend to be about a full K/9 better at home than they are on the road. I don't know how that compares around the league. The Jays are only .2 higher this year at home and only .1 higher last year.

I'm happy Sanchez is going to stay in the rotation, but I don't know about a 6-man rotation. I guess it helps save Sanchez's arm and maybe Estrada's back, and I suppose if Liriano doesn't suck...

Yeah, I think the issue you usually have with a 6 man rotation is that not only are you taking innings from your five best starters and giving a bunch of innings to whoever is the 6th best starter on your staff but you're disrupting everyone's rest schedule for the purpose of doing so(with the caveat that the "purpose" here is clearly to compromise between leaving Sanchez in the rotation vs. sending him to the pen)

Regardless of how you feel about the sort of precautionary measures that are driving the move to put Sanchez in the bullpen, that seems like an awful lot of disruption in its service.

Happy to hear that management has at least budged on the Sanchez workload issue. It sounds like the 6 man rotation idea buys Sanchez another month in the rotation. This is great news for the Jays with the season he is having. Give him another month and then re-evaluate at the start of September on how Sanchez feels physically. Rosters will then expand and more options will be available should they need them. Seems like a smart, sensible approach to the situation.

It's not ideal, that's for sure, but the Jays also have 6 off days the rest of the way, so they'll have opportunities to skip the 6th guy basically every 2nd time through the rotation.

Sure but in that case how many innings are you really saving for Sanchez in that case? I probably lean towards just leaving the rotation as is(although I'm not gung-ho on it either way) but I feel like either you have a good medical reason for effectively shutting him down or you don't.

Holy cow, Atkins is on his way to Houston to discuss the Sanchez situation with the Blue Jays coaching staff and Sanchez himself! I hope they can sort this out in a way that it doesn't negatively affect the clubhouse. I personally don't understand why they don't go to a 6 man rotation and then put Sanchez into the bullpen once the playoffs start. What if the Jays are in the wild card game? Don't you want Sanchez starting that game?

The six man rotation it will be: Stroman, Dixkey, Estrada, Happ, Liriano, Sanchez.

Atkins had this to say on the situation.

"What I think is the most likely scenario is that he stays in the rotation for some time to come," Atkins told reporters in Houston prior to Toronto's series finale with the Astros.

"I think what changed for us, a couple of things: input from more people, one of those people being Francisco Liriano, who was open to anything and everything," Atkins said. "That opened things up for us to think about things differently. And then talking to Aaron about it and how strongly he felt about staying in the rotation, that fortunately we're in a situation where we're able to do it."

"I think what we're going to do is really try to work with Aaron to give this team the best chance to win," Atkins said. "We do have thresholds that would be uncomfortable. There's not a scenario where he pitches 220, 230 innings.

"He's going to go into a territory that's uncomfortable and uncommon and he's comfortable with that. We've worked together on what that range or territory should be but there's so many variables that will contribute to what's best for him and this team."

Holy cow, Atkins is on his way to Houston to discuss the Sanchez situation with the Blue Jays coaching staff and Sanchez himself! I hope they can sort this out in a way that it doesn't negatively affect the clubhouse. I personally don't understand why they don't go to a 6 man rotation and then put Sanchez into the bullpen once the playoffs start. What if the Jays are in the wild card game? Don't you want Sanchez starting that game?

The six man rotation it will be: Stroman, Dixkey, Estrada, Happ, Liriano, Sanchez.

Atkins had this to say on the situation.

"What I think is the most likely scenario is that he stays in the rotation for some time to come," Atkins told reporters in Houston prior to Toronto's series finale with the Astros.

"I think what changed for us, a couple of things: input from more people, one of those people being Francisco Liriano, who was open to anything and everything," Atkins said. "That opened things up for us to think about things differently. And then talking to Aaron about it and how strongly he felt about staying in the rotation, that fortunately we're in a situation where we're able to do it."

"I think what we're going to do is really try to work with Aaron to give this team the best chance to win," Atkins said. "We do have thresholds that would be uncomfortable. There's not a scenario where he pitches 220, 230 innings.

"He's going to go into a territory that's uncomfortable and uncommon and he's comfortable with that. We've worked together on what that range or territory should be but there's so many variables that will contribute to what's best for him and this team."

As usual you guys completely ignore my post when I am not only completely right but the rest of you are out to lunch. I guess this is a hockey board after all.

I don't get it, did anybody disagree with or belittle your suggestion? You're just mad because nobody immediately responded? Wow.

And yes, this literally is a hockey board, what did you think TML stood for??

I'm just frustrated. There are several of the know-it-all types on here. They constantly talk down everyone else and they carry on with this huge air of arrogance. Their opinions are no more valid than anyone else's. This place has never been very welcoming and the same people have been ruining the boards for years.

As usual you guys completely ignore my post when I am not only completely right but the rest of you are out to lunch. I guess this is a hockey board after all.

I don't get it, did anybody disagree with or belittle your suggestion? You're just mad because nobody immediately responded? Wow.

And yes, this literally is a hockey board, what did you think TML stood for??

I'm just frustrated. There are several of the know-it-all types on here. They constantly talk down everyone else and they carry on with this huge air of arrogance. Their opinions are no more valid than anyone else's. This place has never been very welcoming and the same people have been ruining the boards for years.

In your first post in question you state that you are completely right and the rest of the posters are "out to lunch" while in this most recent post you are lamenting/complaining that the board contains several "know-it-all types" who talk down/carry a huge air of arrogance. How would saying you are completely right and everyone else is out to lunch not also be considered behaviour of someone thinking they "know-it-all" and talking down to other posters?

I think almost everyone here can be guilty of it from time to time, of coming off harshly, but it would seem hypocritical to complain about something that it could be argued you have done within this thread.

As usual you guys completely ignore my post when I am not only completely right but the rest of you are out to lunch. I guess this is a hockey board after all.

I don't get it, did anybody disagree with or belittle your suggestion? You're just mad because nobody immediately responded? Wow.

And yes, this literally is a hockey board, what did you think TML stood for??

I'm just frustrated. There are several of the know-it-all types on here. They constantly talk down everyone else and they carry on with this huge air of arrogance. Their opinions are no more valid than anyone else's. This place has never been very welcoming and the same people have been ruining the boards for years.

In your first post in question you state that you are completely right and the rest of the posters are "out to lunch" while in this most recent post you are lamenting/complaining that the board contains several "know-it-all types" who talk down/carry a huge air of arrogance. How would saying you are completely right and everyone else is out to lunch not also be considered behaviour of someone thinking they "know-it-all" and talking down to other posters?

I think almost everyone here can be guilty of it from time to time, of coming off harshly, but it would seem hypocritical to complain about something that it could be argued you have done within this thread.

I'm only posting like that in response to all the arrogant nonsense on here. This forum breeds a culture of it. I said it to make a point.

Greetings, friends. I, for one, do not feel that this forum is arrogant. I appreciate the nearly scholarly effort some people put into helping people like me understand the game of hockey (and the world at large).

And now, kindling for what is turning into a semi-annual flame out.https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Psychological_projection

More on topic: 6-man rotation = more rest for Estrada (or whoever else might need it)? I don't know. They can do whatever they want. I'm still bemoaning the missed opportunity to have a rotation of Syndergaard, Sanchez, Stroman.

Greetings, friends. I, for one, do not feel that this forum is arrogant. I appreciate the nearly scholarly effort some people put into helping people like me understand the game of hockey (and the world at large).

And now, kindling for what is turning into a semi-annual flame out.https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Psychological_projection

More on topic: 6-man rotation = more rest for Estrada (or whoever else might need it)? I don't know. They can do whatever they want. I'm still bemoaning the missed opportunity to have a rotation of Syndergaard, Sanchez, Stroman.

What you're going to psychoanalyze me? F that. I say we take a look inside Herman's head...

Smoak's extension is baffling to me. He's 29 and is coming off a career best .768 OPS season as a 1B/DH only player. He can't hit offspeed pitches at all. Smoak is what he is. Certainly not a guy who needed a 2-year extension.

Smoak's extension is baffling to me. He's 29 and is coming off a career best .768 OPS season as a 1B/DH only player. He can't hit offspeed pitches at all. Smoak is what he is. Certainly not a guy who needed a 2-year extension.

At $4 million per season I'm ok with his extension. Encarnacion is not durable enough to play first base every day and Smoak is better than him defensively. Smoak saved the game the other day actually with a nice dig at first base at the end of the game.

There is also the fact that Edwin may walk. Now at least we have Smoak.

I'm not saying I like him either but the price is right and he's an ok fill in until they can find someone better in the event that Edwin walks. He's going to earn a massive contract. He's on pace for 50+ home runs and something like 140RBI.

Smoak's extension is baffling to me. He's 29 and is coming off a career best .768 OPS season as a 1B/DH only player. He can't hit offspeed pitches at all. Smoak is what he is. Certainly not a guy who needed a 2-year extension.

Yeah, that's a weird one. Even if the Jays lose both Edwin and Jose(who really needs to be moved out of RF) then you really have to question when they'll ever want to give a lot of at-bats to a guy who's essentially been a replacement level player his whole career(1.8 career WAR).

Jose saved two sac fly tag ups (one would've been a run) by reputation alone, as he didn't look like he was going to make any good throws that game.

Devon Travis has one of my favourite hitting approaches to the game and it netted him a 4-hit night, including the game winner

Why don't we ever ever bunt? Many a 2-runners with less than 2 outs situation and a crummy hitter comes up to whiff out or ground into worse.

Me: "Josh Thole's bat is so shiny"My brother: "Because it never touches the ball."Me: "LOL"

Saunders is having trouble with his timing

Biagini, Grilli, Osuna is a pretty formidable back end of the bullpen now

43k+ people on a Monday night vs the last place team in the division made for a surprisingly rockin' dome

I grew up basically on the Internet, so I kept up a pretty steady stream of game thread style commentary throughout the game that was probably audible to my relatively silent seat neighbours. Is this kosher or not?

He basically went a season without giving up a run. Gibbons waited out Stroman's bad play as well as Tulo's and it paid off. We need good L handers in the pen. Hopefully he comes around too. A lot of the decisions Gibbons has made that I disagree with turn out in hind sight to be good decisions.

Patrick Roy, now ex-coach & V.P. of player operations and Joe Sakic (current GM), were as different in personalities as night and day, with Ray being temperamental & outspoken, and Sakic being quiet & unassuming in his ways.

So, it's safe to say that the two were obviously at loggerheads concerning the direction and status of the team in general,

This may give some insight:

Sakic, the so-called GM, and Roy, the coach who was always suspected of having a major say in personnel moves.

Only this summer rumour has it that Roy was the one making the decisions on which scouts remained in the Avs employ and which ones didnít.

Did he want Sakic to hold on to Ryan OíReilly last summer, when Sakic dealt him to Buffalo? Was he against keeping defenceman Tyson Barrie, who finally settled on a contract in Denver last month? Did Roy wish for Matt Duchene to be moved, and Sakic either wouldnít comply or couldnít find a satisfactory deal?

What GM would want a coach who demands a weighty say in all personnel issues? And what coach, considering the tepid success Roy has had at the NHL level, would want to divide his own attention that way?

Patrick Roy, now ex-coach & V.P. of player operations and Joe Sakic (current GM), were as different in personalities as night and day, with Ray being temperamental & outspoken, and Sakic being quiet & unassuming in his ways.

So, it's safe to say that the two were obviously at loggerheads concerning the direction and status of the team in general,

This may give some insight:

Sakic, the so-called GM, and Roy, the coach who was always suspected of having a major say in personnel moves.

Only this summer rumour has it that Roy was the one making the decisions on which scouts remained in the Avs employ and which ones didnít.

Did he want Sakic to hold on to Ryan OíReilly last summer, when Sakic dealt him to Buffalo? Was he against keeping defenceman Tyson Barrie, who finally settled on a contract in Denver last month? Did Roy wish for Matt Duchene to be moved, and Sakic either wouldnít comply or couldnít find a satisfactory deal?

What GM would want a coach who demands a weighty say in all personnel issues? And what coach, considering the tepid success Roy has had at the NHL level, would want to divide his own attention that way?

Patrick Roy, now ex-coach & V.P. of player operations and Joe Sakic (current GM), were as different in personalities as night and day, with Ray being temperamental & outspoken, and Sakic being quiet & unassuming in his ways.

So, it's safe to say that the two were obviously at loggerheads concerning the direction and status of the team in general,

This may give some insight:

Sakic, the so-called GM, and Roy, the coach who was always suspected of having a major say in personnel moves.

Only this summer rumour has it that Roy was the one making the decisions on which scouts remained in the Avs employ and which ones didnít.

Did he want Sakic to hold on to Ryan OíReilly last summer, when Sakic dealt him to Buffalo? Was he against keeping defenceman Tyson Barrie, who finally settled on a contract in Denver last month? Did Roy wish for Matt Duchene to be moved, and Sakic either wouldnít comply or couldnít find a satisfactory deal?

What GM would want a coach who demands a weighty say in all personnel issues? And what coach, considering the tepid success Roy has had at the NHL level, would want to divide his own attention that way?

Cripes! How did this happen?? I was using my stylus on my smartphone and thought I had the proper page saved which I did, but due to email notifications & navigating through the different thread topics, a mixup occurred. (*sigh*)

Patrick Roy, now ex-coach & V.P. of player operations and Joe Sakic (current GM), were as different in personalities as night and day, with Ray being temperamental & outspoken, and Sakic being quiet & unassuming in his ways.

So, it's safe to say that the two were obviously at loggerheads concerning the direction and status of the team in general,

This may give some insight:

Sakic, the so-called GM, and Roy, the coach who was always suspected of having a major say in personnel moves.

Only this summer rumour has it that Roy was the one making the decisions on which scouts remained in the Avs employ and which ones didnít.

Did he want Sakic to hold on to Ryan OíReilly last summer, when Sakic dealt him to Buffalo? Was he against keeping defenceman Tyson Barrie, who finally settled on a contract in Denver last month? Did Roy wish for Matt Duchene to be moved, and Sakic either wouldnít comply or couldnít find a satisfactory deal?

What GM would want a coach who demands a weighty say in all personnel issues? And what coach, considering the tepid success Roy has had at the NHL level, would want to divide his own attention that way?

Asked if the new pricing structure is expected to increase the revenue-per-ticket for the Blue Jays, Miller replied: ďThatís hard to say. Our goal is make sure that weíre aligning value for the fans, so weíre trying to give more choice for some fans that may be selecting games that they otherwise wouldnít have selected in different parts of the season.Ē

I know this is not popular around her but I find Donaldson kind of a meat head.. albeit a talented one

I see him as more hot headed than meat headed, but I totally get where you're coming from. There is still a tremendous intelligence behind his talent: how he re-tooled his swing despite decades of coaching otherwise, his routes and footwork to balls chopped his way all indicate a very sharp, analytic mind behind the gusto.

You think so? I thought altuve pretty much had it wrapped up... Unless he falls off a cliff in September...

I think he's probably the favourite but just for reference sake:

AL WAR leaders:

Trout 8.2Betts 7.5Altuve 7.3 Donaldson 6.3Machado 6.1

So you'll have some stats guys arguing for Trout, you'll have the East Coast media presence probably in Betts' corner and you'll have the very real possibility that the Astros don't make the playoffs potentially hurting Altuve(which shouldn't matter but tends to.)

Those are all good points... I guess I'm still stuck in traditional metrics - I really need to start diving into advanced metrics and making the effort to understand them...

Kind of interestingly Altuve's bWAR is almost entirely a result of his hitting, with a offensive WAR of 7.2(putting him just behind Trout). Betts is a ways behind at 5.3 but he closes the gap because he's grading as having a spectacular defensive season.

So that might tilt things a little bit in Altuve's way. I think defensive ability is harder to gauge and with less certainty so with Altuve being a reigning gold glover some people out there might read the defense as a wash despite the advanced numbers and just look at Altuve's significantly better year at the plate.

Kind of interestingly Altuve's bWAR is almost entirely a result of his hitting, with a offensive WAR of 7.2(putting him just behind Trout). Betts is a ways behind at 5.3 but he closes the gap because he's grading as having a spectacular defensive season.

So that might tilt things a little bit in Altuve's way. I think defensive ability is harder to gauge and with less certainty so with Altuve being a reigning gold glover some people out there might read the defense as a wash despite the advanced numbers and just look at Altuve's significantly better year at the plate.

I dunno. I also think a lot of the old school voters will look at Betts' numbers and see the kinds of numbers they like to see that Altuve may not be able to reach - 30+ HR, 100+ RBIs, etc - and feel like that more than makes up for the difference between their respective batting averages. The rest of their raw numbers are awfully close. I mean, to an old school type, the only thing Altuve really has on Betts is that he walks more - and, I can see them not valuing that anywhere close as high as they should.

I dunno. I also think a lot of the old school voters will look at Betts' numbers and see the kinds of numbers they like to see that Altuve may not be able to reach - 30+ HR, 100+ RBIs, etc - and feel like that more than makes up for the difference between their respective batting averages. The rest of their raw numbers are awfully close. I mean, to an old school type, the only thing Altuve really has on Betts is that he walks more - and, I can see them not valuing that anywhere close as high as they should.

Betts is only 7 RBI up on Altuve(94 to 87) so it seems pretty likely that they'll both hit 100. Altuve will probably finish with 25+ homeruns so I don't know how big a deal that will be.

I think old school writers really like it when guys lead the league in traditional stat categories, something Altuve is doing right now in hits and batting average. Betts is leading the league in total bases which is probably more significant but fits less of a narrative.

Either way, if I had to guess the finish right now I'd guess 1. Altuve 2. Betts 3. Donaldson. If you asked me who I'd vote for it'd probably be 1. Trout 2. Altuve 3. Donaldson.

Which is more accurate, bWAR or fWAR? Donaldson ranks 2nd in the AL in fWAR behind Trout (7.2 to 6.9).

I don't think it's a question of either being more accurate than the other because there's no definitive answer to the question of what makes one ball player more valuable than the other. You just have to look at their methods and decide which one you like better really. Both have value though. I'm not as big into the FIPS stuff as fangraphs is(as far as I recall) so I like BR better.

THE SKY IS FALLING! It truly is, this awful streak just keeps going and going. We all know their not this bad but COME ON, SNAP OUT OF IT!

6 man rotation? Looming contracts? Don't care... figure it out.

Strange isn't it? How the Blue Jays are floundering at a time when other teams are ramping up their game. Obviously, as this team has been winning and doing well for most of the the season until now, one can't say that the Blue Jays have 'run out of gas'. Or, have they?

With the Jays' 8-1 loss to Anaheim last night, they are now 3GBL in the A.L. East, tied with Baltimore. Wild Cardrace also has the Jays and the Orioles deadlocked for top spot.

Worth noting: if playoffs were to be played now, Jays & Orioles would face-off in a sudden-death game (to determine A.L.Wild Card winner), and the winning team would get to face the Texas Rangers.

The pressure on the Blue Jays is enormous and every single game from here on in counts, loss or win, either way will make or break their hopes to overtake a Boston team that's ressembling last season's Jays.

I really have never been a big supporter of Gibbons so I'm really not going to go out of my way to defend him, and I'm not.

If there is anyone I would be pointing a finger at it might be the hitting coach. The Jays have been pitched outside all year. They aren't adjusting. That's either a fault of the hitting coach to not find a strategy against it, or a guy who can't command enough presence to get the players to follow through on adjustments.

If there is anyone I would be pointing a finger at it might be the hitting coach. The Jays have been pitched outside all year. They aren't adjusting. That's either a fault of the hitting coach to not find a strategy against it, or a guy who can't command enough presence to get the players to follow through on adjustments.

Yeah. Though, I do blame Gibby for not having the team start playing small ball more early in the season when it was already clear that they weren't going to power their way to wins in the same way as last season.

If there is anyone I would be pointing a finger at it might be the hitting coach. The Jays have been pitched outside all year. They aren't adjusting. That's either a fault of the hitting coach to not find a strategy against it, or a guy who can't command enough presence to get the players to follow through on adjustments.

Yeah. Though, I do blame Gibby for not having the team start playing small ball more early in the season when it was already clear that they weren't going to power their way to wins in the same way as last season.

I was surprised to see they did not learn anything at all from the way they got rolled by Kansas in the ALCS.

The best the Jays can hope for is a Wild Card spot -- currently +1G over the Orioles there by way of a 10-2 whitewash of the Seattle Mariners last night. Jays' starter J.A. Happ earned his 20th win of the year, becoming the sixth player in franchise history to achieve the milestone.

Forget winning the A.L. East as the Red Sox have amassed a +4G lead over the Jays. Unless Boston suffers a total (col)lapse, it won't be getting any easier for the Jays to overtake them than it already is (which isn't).

Don't think the recent swoon is Gibbons' fault but that last inning shows why I don't really like him as a manager. Top of 10th, runner on second and nobody out and plays like that one run is the only thing in the world. Pinch runner, sac bunt.....line out and strike out.

Don't think the recent swoon is Gibbons' fault but that last inning shows why I don't really like him as a manager. Top of 10th, runner on second and nobody out and plays like that one run is the only thing in the world. Pinch runner, sac bunt.....line out and strike out.

Honestly, I took greater issue with his bullpen management. He had Barnes in the game, pulled him for the lefty matchups...while Barnes is pretty much unhittable against lefties. Loup comes in, walks both batters he faces and they eek out of the inning.

Don't think the recent swoon is Gibbons' fault but that last inning shows why I don't really like him as a manager. Top of 10th, runner on second and nobody out and plays like that one run is the only thing in the world. Pinch runner, sac bunt.....line out and strike out.

Honestly, I took greater issue with his bullpen management. He had Barnes in the game, pulled him for the lefty matchups...while Barnes is pretty much unhittable against lefties. Loup comes in, walks both batters he faces and they eek out of the inning.

Donaldson of all people didn't make two plays in the 12th... bad throw then missed catch... which cost them the winning run against.

Don't think the recent swoon is Gibbons' fault but that last inning shows why I don't really like him as a manager. Top of 10th, runner on second and nobody out and plays like that one run is the only thing in the world. Pinch runner, sac bunt.....line out and strike out.

Honestly, I took greater issue with his bullpen management. He had Barnes in the game, pulled him for the lefty matchups...while Barnes is pretty much unhittable against lefties. Loup comes in, walks both batters he faces and they eek out of the inning.

For Blue Jays President Mark Shapiro, the death of Miami Marlins pitching ace Jose Fernandez hits close to home...

For Shapiro the news brought back a wave of personal memories from spring training of 1993, when he was a member of the Cleveland Indians front office. In March of that year Indians relievers Steve Olin and Tim Crews were killed in a spring training boating accident that seriously injured left-hander Bob Ojeda. After those losses, baseball games seemed insignificant in comparison.

ďBaseballís one of those games thatís unforgiving in the sense that it keeps moving, it keeps going,Ē Shapiro said. ďThereís a comfort to that, but thereís also a cruelty to that."

ďWe all deal with that whether itís kids being born, family members lost, it keeps moving. Itís a hard thing to get past for a team and an organization. Not being (in Miami) itís hard to begin to think about. The only reason I can begin to think about it is because I went through something as terrible and as horrific.Ē

ďWhen you live in close quarters with people for 183 days and spring training, in a lot of ways baseball becomes your family,Ē Shapiro said. ďYou lean on people more than you think. There are stronger leaders than you ever know and thereís greater comfort being with each other than with anyone else. Itís a reminder that the clubhouse is your home and the team is your family.Ē

ďYou tend to forget, particularly people watching from a distance, you tend to forget that these guys doing super-human things for three hours a day are just human beings, just people,Ē Shapiro said. ďEverybody probably goes home and pays a little more attention with their loved ones."

The Bullpen's imploding is going to get most of the attention but I just can't stand the smallball nonsense. Let Donaldson hit with someone on base maybe.

I think smallball is an important aspect of winning in the postseason and such, but, like with the bullpen, I'm not sure Gibbons has a good grasp of how to use it. It's to help bottom of the order guys create runs, not to move guys up 90 feet for power bats, or to help generate the winning run in extra innings, etc.

Jays are selling tickets to a wild card tie breaker game that they could host if the Jays tie for the second wildcard spot. There seems to be about a million ways this could still theoretically play out so here's an idea... WIN GOD DAMN IT. The Jays are sole possession of the first wild position so lock it down.

Pivotal three-game final season series tonight against the Red Sox in Boston.

The Jays are now in a must-win mode. Their offence needs to start rolling, and, if last night's 4-0 loss to the Orioles is any indication, it does not bode well right now for the Jays.

So...GO JAYS GO!!!

Estrada, Happ, and Sanchez lined up for BOS. Hopefully we win the first two and then save Sanchez for the WC. Very wishful thinking considering how things have gone of late. If we do limp into the wildcard game we might have to go with Stroman. To be honest, I wouldn't be surprised if the Jays season is done on/by Tuesday.

This team has had a rollercoaster of a month, for want of a better term, when ore considers that the Jays were +2 games ahead of the competition & in first place in the A.L. East Division in early September...

...then, they fell from grace, so to speak, as they tumbled to being -6GBL...

...in position +1 of the first Wildcard spot... and now....fighting just to stay afloat for a Wildcard spot, nearly out of the playoffs but barely hanging in there.

If there is a general housecleaning this summer of Encarnacion, Bautista and Saunders (although he's been AWOL since the ASG in my opinion), it may be a while before we get this close again.

I don't think that's necessarily true. There is the semblance of a pretty good team left even with those guys gone (and yea, Saunders, with his anemic offense and atrocious defense, won't be a loss).

You have Donaldson, Travis, Tulo and Martin to build around and you're starting with a rotation next year of Sanchez, Estrada, Stroman, Happ and Liriano. There will be plenty of $ to spend to fill in some of those other offensive and bullpen gaps (hopefully they spend it).

I think they are set to finally build a strong, lasting team, as opposed to last year's incarnation which looked to have about a 1.5- year shelf life (which apparently turned out to be 1 instead). A new manager, corner outfielders who can actually field a ball, and a couple of good bullpen pieces would create a more competitive team next year, imo.

Stars aligning? Bautista has come alive, couple big wins to end the season maybe we have momentum? I hope the emotional Stroman rides the high of Sanchez's no hitter into the 7th and keeps things rolling! Go Blue Jays!

This early game crap pisses me off. We get second tier treatment as a Canadian franchise. Are Americans really that disinterested in watching if the Jays are playing? All of Canada watches does that make up some of the difference. The size of our Canadian fan base has to better then most cities fan base.

Why do we always get the shaft for playoff game scheduling?

"We talked about foul balls into the stands... they don't play a lot of baseball in Canada, a lot of people aren't used to catching them"

This early game crap pisses me off. We get second tier treatment as a Canadian franchise. Are Americans really that disinterested in watching if the Jays are playing? All of Canada watches does that make up some of the difference. The size of our Canadian fan base has to better then most cities fan base.

Canadian ratings are entirely irrelevant to TBS or Fox or whoever pays for US ratings. Sportsnet simulcasts the game and replaces the US commercials with their own so TBS can't sell advertisers on their products reaching that Canadian audience even if they wanted that(A company like AT&T, for instance, doesn't do business in Canada). You might argue that it makes those simulcasting rights more valuable but Sportsnet has to work out their broadcasting deal with TBS without knowing if the Jays will be in the playoffs.

Realistically, the Jays will cut the US ratings by a pretty fair margin and it's not unreasonable for that to be what a US network cares about.

Last year had novelty of "the drought is over" storyline. This year was the high expectation year that kind of fell short. The hospitals were overrun with twisted ankles from people hopping off the bandwagon late in the year.

I don't know. Those are just my reasons for not caring that much about this year. My social media friends are still pretty into it. Lots of attendees on weeknights throughout the year. Edwin love during the wild card draw was huge.

Maybe it's because this is a daytime series, but it doesn't seem like there is as much interest in the Jays as there was last year, social media seems to be significantly quieter.

I think it'll pick up. As others have said, that initial rush from having a meaningful September and making the playoffs for the first time in 22 years isn't there this year, and they also weren't the same awe-inspiring offensive juggernaut they were last year. I imagine things will pick up a fair bit on Sunday when the Jays are back in town.

How sweep it is! The Blue Jays sweet the Rangers 3 games to 0 in this best-of-five ALDS. Thanks to a throwing error by the Rangers in the 10th inning on an attempted double play, which enabled the Jays Donaldson to score from second base all the way to home plate. Smart play by Donaldson on that one, as the Jays win it 7-6.

The Blue Jays, having reached the ALCS for the second consecutive season, now await the winner of the Cleveland /Boston ALDS, in which the Indians currently lead 2 games to 0. Game 3 goes Monday in Boston.

If the Cubs beat the Giants tonight, of the remaining teams, the Jays will have the most recent World Series win. If the Nats also beat the Dodgers, none of the other remaining teams will have won a World Series since well before the Jays entered the league.

I was at the game Sunday and can vouch that Jays fans (and quite a few bandwagoners) are out in full force. It was crazy loud the first few innings, got quiet for a bit when Texas took the lead, but then ramped back up after the Jays tied it. You could see the players feeding off the crowd and it was bedlam when Donaldson scored. I was screaming and hugging complete strangers out of sheer joy. There was a giant poster of Odor outside after the game where fans were taking brooms to his rat face. Everyone on the streets high-fiving each other....it was great!

Morales is a veteran DH (33 years old) who can hit 30 HR and drive in 100 RBI when given the chance to be in the lineup regularly. One of the things I'm sure management found attractive about him is that he is a switch-hitter.

This deal is sending a pretty strong signal that the Jays have moved on from Bautista and Encarnacion. Morales is the replacement for Encarnacion given that he is a DH and if he does take the field it will be at 1B. Lots of media types still in denial about this though saying there is still a chance EE comes back. How? There is literally no place for him now with the multi-year deals handed to Smoak and Morales. I would have loved for EE to return to Toronto, but it's not happening. I think he ends up in the State of Texas when all is said and done, either the Astros or the Rangers.

This deal is sending a pretty strong signal that the Jays have moved on from Bautista and Encarnacion. Morales is the replacement for Encarnacion given that he is a DH and if he does take the field it will be at 1B. Lots of media types still in denial about this though saying there is still a chance EE comes back. How? There is literally no place for him now with the multi-year deals handed to Smoak and Morales. I would have loved for EE to return to Toronto, but it's not happening. I think he ends up in the State of Texas when all is said and done, either the Astros or the Rangers.

Smoak's deal didn't keep him from being a part-time guy last season - and, he didn't exactly perform all that well, either. I can't imagine the team sees him as an everyday player next season. He's not impeding EE coming back in any way.

Jays sign LHP Brett Oberholtzer to a minor league deal with an invite to spring training.

Looks similar to those scrap heap waiver claims that AA used to pull, but hey it won't take much to supplant Aaron Loup as the top lefty in the pen these days! This management team has said they aren't going to blow the budget on relievers (especially with bigger needs) and can't say I blame them. Did a great job last season with Biagini, Grilli and Benoit so will give them the benefit of the doubt. Atkins has said he wants to acquire a LH reliever with MLB experience so think there will still be another one added to the roster.

The thing with bullpen arms is that you don't have to spend a ton to get good performances. You really just need to do a good job of identifying guys that just need a tweak in their delivery/mindset/usage. They can usually be picked up relatively cheap. They do tend to have short shelf lives - but, that's true of a significant portion of middle relief types.

My problem is Jose hasn't learned to play 1B and you can't DH him. He's a bad defender in the outfield so he's really limiting his value. 15M isn't horrible for him but it isn't like the Jays are getting a deal with him either.

My problem is Jose hasn't learned to play 1B and you can't DH him. He's a bad defender in the outfield so he's really limiting his value. 15M isn't horrible for him but it isn't like the Jays are getting a deal with him either.

I don't know if he's played enough 1B to really say one way or the other how he'd do there on a semi-regular basis. I certainly don't think Pearce or Smoak are easily preferable options to form a DH/1B platoon with Morales though.

My problem is Jose hasn't learned to play 1B and you can't DH him. He's a bad defender in the outfield so he's really limiting his value. 15M isn't horrible for him but it isn't like the Jays are getting a deal with him either.

I don't know if he's played enough 1B to really say one way or the other how he'd do there on a semi-regular basis. I certainly don't think Pearce or Smoak are easily preferable options to form a DH/1B platoon with Morales though.

That said, it's hard to see a ton of upside here either.

I guess you could stick both Pearce and Bautista in LF whenever you need to and have them split 1B duties, leaving Morales as the primary DH. Bautista's defence in left couldn't be any worse than Saunders' last year, provided Toronto finds a capable right fielder (Granderson??) and uses Upton as the 4th OF.

15 million per for Bautista on a short term deal really doesn't have much downside either.

15 million per for Bautista on a short term deal really doesn't have much downside either.

I suppose it depends on what you mean by downside. I agree that it's not a deal that would bury the Jays or anything but I'd have a number of concerns.

1. I wouldn't be too sure about Bautista's defense vs. Saunders'. Bautista was graded at a -1.4 by BR last year and Saunders was a -1.7. Admittedly that's the difference between Saunders in Left and Bautista in right where the baseline figures to be a little higher but add on another year of age to Bautista and it might be pretty close.

2. To that end you have to wonder how much Bautista's bat can come back. If it can then, sure, he's valuable in Left despite the defense. If not, you could very well have a situation where he's effectively the same as Saunders last year.

3. I'd wonder the extent to which Bautista could then handle, ego-wise, being in a reduced role.

4. Likewise, you have to at least wonder about the wisdom of continuing to just stack the lineup with righthanded power bats. I think the last two LCS' showed us how that can backfire.

5. To that end, you have to wonder if that 15 million couldn't be more effectively spent elsewhere given the Jays' limited budget.

This is where I'm a little puzzled, I suppose, by the Morales deal. I get that he's a switch hitter but it seems like if Bautista was available and could slide into the DH role that might be the higher upside move.

I agree on all points really. Granted it's hindsight now but it looks like they misread the market and rushed to sign Morales (and gave him 3 years to boot).

I was hoping they'd be in on Joyce, who would have been a perfect platoon with Upton, and make a move for someone like Granderson to patrol right. Then you could have had one of EE or Jose DH fulltime.

Most of the blame should be pointed squarely at Paul Kinzer as far as Edwin no longer being a Jay. He cost his client money and the chance to stay in the city he wanted to keep playing in.

I understand what people are saying about Shapiro and Atkins though, despite the Jays offering Edwin the best deal as it turned out. I certainly never got the impression they would move off the 4 years, $80 million. It was more a take it or leave it offer and don't believe they particularly cared if Edwin stayed or not. I believe that holds true for Jose as well.

Thank you Edwin for all you have done in a Jays uniform! One of the all-time greats in team history and that walk-off HR against the O's in the Wild Card game ranks up there as one of the best Jays moments.

Most of the blame should be pointed squarely at Paul Kinzer as far as Edwin no longer being a Jay. He cost his client money and the chance to stay in the city he wanted to keep playing in.

I understand what people are saying about Shapiro and Atkins though, despite the Jays offering Edwin the best deal as it turned out. I certainly never got the impression they would move off the 4 years, $80 million. It was more a take it or leave it offer and don't believe they particularly cared if Edwin stayed or not. I believe that holds true for Jose as well.

Thank you Edwin for all you have done in a Jays uniform! One of the all-time greats in team history and that walk-off HR against the O's in the Wild Card game ranks up there as one of the best Jays moments.

I say, "Bravo, Edwin!" Sad to see him leave, but he'll remain a favourite Blue Jay to baseball aficionados in this city for a long time to come.

I don't follow the Jays enough to get a real feel for what sort of an impact this off season will have on the fortunes of this club moving forward. Anyone want to chime in with what the big picture looks like now? Has all hope diminished or will they still be a good team next season?

I understand what people are saying about Shapiro and Atkins though, despite the Jays offering Edwin the best deal as it turned out. I certainly never got the impression they would move off the 4 years, $80 million. It was more a take it or leave it offer and don't believe they particularly cared if Edwin stayed or not. I believe that holds true for Jose as well.

This is where it makes no sense to me. Edwin just signed for less than what the Jays offered. If they were to move off 4/80, a quarter less in both terms and dollars would, I don't know, would have actually worked in their favour. :o

Most of the blame should be pointed squarely at Paul Kinzer as far as Edwin no longer being a Jay. He cost his client money and the chance to stay in the city he wanted to keep playing in.

How do you figure? Edwin is an adult. He's fully capable of saying "I want to take this deal" when the Jays offered it. If Kinzer then tells Edwin that he thinks he can get more in free agency then that decision is still Edwin's to make.

http://www.tsn.ca/agent-encarnacion-turned-down-more-money-to-sign-with-indians-1.637760 (http://www.tsn.ca/agent-encarnacion-turned-down-more-money-to-sign-with-indians-1.637760)Kinzer said Encarnacion may wind up bringing home more money in three seasons with Cleveland than he would have in four years with the Blue Jays.ďItís close,Ē he said. ďOur guys ran the numbers last night. They were really close.Ē

Pro athletes in Toronto face paying a combined tax rate of 53.53 per cent based on the total number of days they spend in Canada, said Robert Raiola, an accountant in New York who works for pro athletes and teams.In Cleveland, Raiola said the combined top rate is about 47 per cent. (The federal government takes 39.6 per cent of annual income, while Ohio takes 5 per cent and Cleveland has a 2 per cent tax, he said.)

ďThose numbers are changing soon under Trump,Ē Raiola said. ďHe has talked about lowering the top federal rate to 33 per cent. That gap between Canada and the U.S. is only going to widen. I donít know how Canadian teams are going to be able to compete for free agents without wildly overpaying.Ē

Of the Edwin situarion:Ken Rosenthal of FOX Sports argues that the Blue Jays may have misread the market for power bats this winter. In the case of Toronto, he suggests, the team ought to have been more patient with Edwin Encarnacion. By moving quickly to give a three-year deal to Kendrys Morales after Encarnacion declined to take the teamís early-offseason offer, the Jays may have spent much more than necessary to land a player of Moralesís quality while also tying their hands on Encarnacion, who ended up signing for one year and $20MM less than Toronto had reportedly offered.

As for Bautista:Speculation about Jose Bautista ultimately signing a one-year deal is growing throughout the industry, writes Sportsnetís Ben Nicholson-Smith. The Blue Jays were recently said to be in active talks with Bautista, and Nicholson-Smith notes that he spoke with execs from two other clubs that considered Bautista the exact type of player that could end up as a significant bargain if heís had on a one-year pact. Nicholson-Smith adds that thereís still a belief in the industry that Toronto would be perfectly happy to let Bautista depart, sign elsewhere, and collect a compensatory draft pick. However, the Jays do still need two corner outfielders, and Bautista is a known commodity among the fans, in the clubhouse and on the field for Toronto.

According to reports, Michael Saunders has signed a 1 year, $9 million deal with the Phillies with an option for a 2nd year worth $11 million, that can escalate to $14 million if he reaches certain performance goals.

Josh Thole has signed a minor league deal with the D-Backs. I wouldn't think there are very many Jays fans sad to see him go, although it was pretty well known that when Dickey wasn't coming back that Thole wouldn't be either. Rumour has it the Jays are looking at Salty to possibly fill the backup catcher role.

The Blue Jays sign pitcher Aaron Sanchez to league minimum @$535,000. Sanchez will be eligible for arbitration at end of 2017 and eligible for Free Agency at end of 2020.

Sanchez's agent Scott Boras blasts Jays in handling of contract:

Under a policy in place for the past 10 years, the Blue Jays renew contracts at the major-league minimum if players donít accept the raises offered to them.

"They offered him a very small raise above the minimum, which is not commensurate to his performance peers," Boras said in an interview with Sportsnet. "Some teams have very low payment standards but they say if you renew we understand, but you still keep the money weíre giving you. Toronto is so rigid, they not only have a very antiquated or substandard policy compared to the other teams for extraordinary performance, but if you donít accept what that low standard is, they then have the poison pill of saying, you get paid the minimum. Itís the harshest treatment in baseball that any club could provide for a player. Thatís why few teams have such a policy."

Full story:http://www.sportsnet.ca/baseball/mlb/scott-boras-rips-blue-jays-handling-sanchez-salary/ (http://www.sportsnet.ca/baseball/mlb/scott-boras-rips-blue-jays-handling-sanchez-salary/)

The Blue Jays sign pitcher Aaron Sanchez to league minimum @$535,000. Sanchez will be eligible for arbitration at end of 2017 and eligible for Free Agency at end of 2020.

Sanchez's agent Scott Boras blasts Jays in handling of contract:

Under a policy in place for the past 10 years, the Blue Jays renew contracts at the major-league minimum if players donít accept the raises offered to them.

"They offered him a very small raise above the minimum, which is not commensurate to his performance peers," Boras said in an interview with Sportsnet. "Some teams have very low payment standards but they say if you renew we understand, but you still keep the money weíre giving you. Toronto is so rigid, they not only have a very antiquated or substandard policy compared to the other teams for extraordinary performance, but if you donít accept what that low standard is, they then have the poison pill of saying, you get paid the minimum. Itís the harshest treatment in baseball that any club could provide for a player. Thatís why few teams have such a policy."

Full story:http://www.sportsnet.ca/baseball/mlb/scott-boras-rips-blue-jays-handling-sanchez-salary/ (http://www.sportsnet.ca/baseball/mlb/scott-boras-rips-blue-jays-handling-sanchez-salary/)

I can't speak to Boras' overall influence on Baseball, although it seems as though whoever the biggest agent has been has always been deemed a danger to the game as long as the game has had agents, but I think there's a fair point to be made that the policy here is a bad one that seems to risk antagonizing players over relatively small sums of money.

In a total of 36 plate appearances tracked, Pillar has swung at just 16.7 percent of pitches he has seen outside the zone, or over 13 percentage points below league average and over 22 percentage points below his career average. Thatís a change of over four standard deviations! On pitches in the zone, Pillar has swung at 55.2 percent of them, about 10 points below the league average and eight percentage points below his career average. I spoke to him about the change before the Blue Jays headed to Clearwater on Tuesday afternoon for their tilt with the Phillies, and he said that ď[heís] been doing the same thing for a couple of years, and [hasnít] gotten results, so [he] needed to make a change.Ē

This was all Pillarís doing, as well. He did some ďresearch and self-evaluation through the internetĒ, which showed him that he ďmade a lot of soft contact, and also a lot of hard contact.Ē He interpreted this data in the following way.

ďWhen I stayed in the zone and I got my pitch, I hit it well, and if I expanded the zone, I didnít make hard contact. That led me to a lot of soft outs.Ē

Jays signed OF/INF Chris Coghlan to a minor league deal and will send him to AAA Buffalo to start the season.

Not a bad depth signing, plays mostly corner outfield, but can fill in at several infield positions if need be.

Should be interesting to see who the final cuts are at tomorrow's roster deadline. I could see the Jays dealing Goins rather than losing him for nothing on waivers if there is no spot for him on the team. Upton Jr. is the other guy being mentioned on the bubble to make the team and there are a lot of rumblings that he won't be a part of the team and will likely be dealt.

Pearce and Carrera both in the starting lineup scares me a little. And replacing Pearce with Smoak doesn't make me feel any better.

Pearce generally gets on base at a reasonable rate, so I'm not super concerned about him. Carrera as an every day player and the team not really having a 4th outfielder on the roster, on the other hand . . .

Pearce and Carrera both in the starting lineup scares me a little. And replacing Pearce with Smoak doesn't make me feel any better.

Pearce generally gets on base at a reasonable rate, so I'm not super concerned about him. Carrera as an every day player and the team not really having a 4th outfielder on the roster, on the other hand . . .

Pompey is on the DL as well...don't know if he would have made the team anyways, so I didn't include.

He has some value, just not quite enough for the Jays liking. They could be trying to raise it some, which is why you saw Goins get the start at third tonight rather than Barney. Lots of rumblings about Goins being dealt in the last couple weeks prior to Upton getting released when the Jays were trying to finalize the roster. This report from Baseball Prospectus clears that situation up:

The Blue Jays were listening to trade offers on both Upton and Goins recently, trying to gauge the market for the two players they needed to choose from for the last roster spot. While the market for Upton was non-existent, the market for Goins was actually pretty decent, with multiple teams making offers for the 29-year-old utility man. One American League team was even intent on trading for Goins and giving him a short term starting role before settling him into their utility role once their club returned to health. However, despite multiple names being tossed around, the two clubs were not able to come to agreement that the Blue Jays liked. So, the Blue Jays decided to release Melvin Upton, and hold on to Goins, knowing that a lot of teams wonít even want to pick up Upton for the remainder of his 2017 contract, and there is a good chance that he re-signs with the club and heads to the minors. For Goins on the other hand, the interest in him is still viable, and even though he secured his spot on the Blue Jays opening day roster, he may still be traded.

It is starting to remind me of the 2014 Jays where I went with the "Don't get fooled again" mantra and was generally jaded and disillusioned that entire season. The Jays went out and made the Dickey and Buehrle trades, got the fan base super excited and then fell on their faces the 2013 season. Then all they do in the 2013 off-season is sign Dioner Navarro and they are supposed to be a better team in 2014? Yeah I wasn't buying that b.s. one bit!

I can decide for myself whether the team is any good from one season to the next, don't need the Mike Wilners of the world sugar-coating everything and smugly telling me I'm a bad Jays fan for not blindly being in love with everything they do. Real Jays fans aren't afraid to just tell it like it is, good, bad, or ugly.

Coghlan diving over Molina was a sick play! Never seen that before in a MLB game, looks like something out of a movie.

That pinch-hit double by Stroman was pretty special too, first pinch-hit by an AL pitcher since 1972! Then to score the winning run was icing on the cake, Marcus didn't want to take that batting helmet off.

Full credit to Russ playing 3B as well, did a good job over there tonight.

Not happy about the 3 blown leads by 3 of our better pitchers, but won't dwell on that tonight as the Jays got the win and it was a fun game to watch as a fan.

Another one I wonder about is Osuna. Are the neck and back problems really better now? I saw some pundits project him to lead the league in saves this year. Currently he has 1 save and 3 blown saves, that is hot garbage coming from a guy who was lights out the last 2 seasons.

As for Bautista no question he is stinking it up with the bat and his range in the outfield looks to have decreased. On the other hand his outfield arm actually looks better to me than last year, but I attribute that to him injuring it against Baltimore last April on the Delmon Young angry throw. Stupid play that affected his arm the rest of the year in my opinion. The way his contract is structured I can't see him being in Toronto past this year and the way things are going it wouldn't shock me to see him dealt at the trade deadline along with Estrada and/or Liriano.

Did Osuna expect a bigger role this season or was he cemented as the closer?

I believe he was cemented as the closer after the numbers he put up the last 2 seasons. He really hasn't had any competition for the closer role since Miguel Castro was traded in the Tulo deal. Never got the sense from anyone that he would be put in a position like Sanchez was to transition from the pen to the rotation. Who knows what the future holds in terms of openings in the rotation though with Estrada and Liriano in the last year of their deals.

Jarrod Saltalamacchia has been DFA'd after a terrible showing both at the plate and behind it. Salty made Josh Thole look like an All-Star by comparison.Luke Maile has been called up and will be the Jays new back-up catcher.

Did Osuna expect a bigger role this season or was he cemented as the closer?

I believe he was cemented as the closer after the numbers he put up the last 2 seasons. He really hasn't had any competition for the closer role since Miguel Castro was traded in the Tulo deal. Never got the sense from anyone that he would be put in a position like Sanchez was to transition from the pen to the rotation. Who knows what the future holds in terms of openings in the rotation though with Estrada and Liriano in the last year of their deals.

Osuna prefers being a relief pitcher.

Quote

"You're right," he replies, "it's because they want me as a starter. But if I would have the choice, I would stay in the bullpen, especially next year when we won't have probably [Drew] Storen or [Brett] Cecil, so I probably have the chance to be the closer. I would take the closer over starter."

Yeah Sanchez, Happ and now Stroman makes for a real mess in the rotation. To make it even worse the 2 healthy starters Estrada and Liriano are free agents after this year and therefore likely pieces to move by the deadline. It sounds like Latos will get another start even though he was awful last time out. T.J. House looks pretty good down in Buffalo, would like to see him up with the Jays.

Jays also claimed reliever Neil Ramirez off waivers from San Fransisco. His numbers aren't that great this year, but looks like he had some decent numbers with the Cubs in the past.

Jays also claimed reliever Neil Ramirez off waivers from San Fransisco. His numbers aren't that great this year, but looks like he had some decent numbers with the Cubs in the past.

His traditional numbers don't look good, but some of the deeper looks point to him likely turning things around. His BABIP in particular is absurdly high (.500!) and will not stay that way. He may not end up being good, but he'll be better than he has been so far in 2017.

The way Bautista is playing these days I can't see him being here after the trade deadline. This guy was the league leader in HR and now he is getting out-homered by the likes of Ryan Goins. :-[His contract is essentially a 1 year deal with a couple option years, but there is no way management can justify keeping Jose the way he is playing. Estrada will be the main trade chip at the deadline, with Liriano and Bautista as secondary pieces. If this Biagini in the rotation thing becomes more than just an injury relief situation, he could slot into the rotation after the trade deadline.

Injury bug continues to bite the Jays, now Russ Martin on the 10 day DL and the catching platoon is Luke Maile and Mike Ohlman. Shocked the scorekeeper gave Maile his 1st Jays hit tonight, was a catchable ball that the Cleveland outfielder totally lost in the lights and went off the heal of his glove....should have been scored an error.

Shortstop who likely ends up at 2B, and a starting pitcher who likely ends up in the bullpen? I mean, they didn't go off the board or anything, so, considering what was likely available, they probably did okay.

Ezequiel Carrera hurt now too and on the 10 day dl. Jays just can't seem to get any relief on the injury front this year. Just when they get a player or two back from injury another one or two go on the dl. It's mid-June and they still haven't been able to field a full healthy roster this season.

Robeto Osuna has been one of the best and biggest breakout stories in baseball. Gauge him by strikeouts, walks, home runs, groundball rate, hard-hit rate, and many other metrics, and heís having the best season of his three-year major league career, and also one of the best for any reliever in the game.

Heís only 22 years old, making the league minimum, and canít test free agency until after the 2020 season. By many different measures, heís a blue-chip asset for any team to have.

And thatís exactly why the Blue Jays should trade him as soon as possible...

Another day, another injury! Joe Smith to the 10 DL with shoulder inflammation, Leonel Campos has been called up to take his spot. Smith has been one of the better arms in the Jays pen this season, so not good news. Tepera will slide into the set-up role while Smith is out.

With six weeks to go before the trade deadline, I asked Mark Shapiro about the Blue Jays' position. Here's what he had to say about it:

"Weíre in a position where we have a lot of talent. The team will make the decision for us. Wish it would be clearer, but our only mindset right now is that we look at ourselves in the thick of things.

Weíre hoping we separate ourselves because we have the talent to do it. Thatíll make it certainly easier to make a decision. Weíre looking for ways to get better.

Hasnít been one thing consistently thatís been an issue. At times our defense hasnít been good, starting pitching has been by and large pretty good, but weíve had hiccups there, And offense hasnít bee on track the way we wanted."

Yeah just didn't have the results like he did last season so it was only a matter of time. Might be the end of the line at age 40, was currently the oldest player in the A.L. I did admire his passion though, always got jacked up after a big strikeout and everyone else fed off of it.

What is ailing the Blue Jays besides all these trips on the DL? This article attempts to explain. Buyers or sellers? Dismantle "the oldest least sustainable roster" and rebuild the farm system? What should they do?...

Until we know how this turns out, the Blue Jays are Schrodinger's cat Ė simultaneously dead and alive.

Someone is going to have to decide which it is before they open the box in September. That someone will be Blue Jays president Mark Shapiro. Is he a deadline seller or a buyer?

This is the rare instance in which doing nothing is not a viable option. If Shapiro does nothing, he's effectively done something Ė committed himself to one of the oldest, least sustainable rosters in baseball when he could have infused the farm system with badly needed new blood. If the Jays finish 12 games out of a playoff spot, giving up on your tomorrows for today will look terribly foolish.

Going the other way is less risky. If you call the season in July, it becomes a self-fulfilling prophecy. You're proved right by the result.

At a guess, that's the way the Jays are leaning. Shapiro was hinting as much back in mid-May.

If that's so, the time for treading water is ending. If the Jays clubhouse wants to be given the chance to see this thing through till the end, they have to start doing it right now. A good target would be crossing the threshold of .500 by the break, which begins July 10. That's the point at which most teams begin firing up their loudest game-theory generators.

It's harder to explain that you are cracking up a winner, both inside and outside the organization. But enough people will buy the explanation if the team is a loser when you begin dismantling it.

So Steve Pearce is sitting for the 2nd game in a row for Ezequiel Carrera. This is a player who has been absolutely on fire the last month (1200+ OPS), has proven to be far, far superior than Carrera on a career basis, has better numbers this year, even considering Carrera's inflated avg and obp, and hits RHP significantly better than the lefty Carrera does. They may be a wash defensively, but, unlike the moronic Carrera, Pearce actually can hit a cutoff man.

I just can't wrap my head around this. Is Gibbons really dumb enough to use a LH hitter vs. RHP solely due to the fact that he's LH, despite the RH being way better?

I don't have a dog in the fight but bWAR has Pearce and Carrera as equally useless(-0.1) for the year.

Well Pearce had a horrid start to the season and then got hurt but, as I said, he is raking at a plus 1200 OPS the past 30 games. He also has a much higher value than Carrera career-wise. It's a no-brainer really.

Well Pearce had a horrid start to the season and then got hurt but, as I said, he is raking at a plus 1200 OPS the past 30 games. He also has a much higher value than Carrera career-wise. It's a no-brainer really.

Both guys are having very good months, with Carrera over .900 OPS for the month in his own right. If I had to guess at a thought process it would be in trying to get some speed/OBP in the lineup combined with Carrera having slightly more success against Fister albeit in very small sample sizes.

Argh, my long response totally got wiped out. I blame Gibbons! Here's the short of it:

Carrera's month constitutes only 15 games. Pearce has not only still been hitting at a much better rate but has done so for almost twice as many games. Pearce's career OBP is also ten points higher than Carrera's. The only thing favouring Carrera is, as you said, speed, but this is a team that never steals and only scores via home run. Carrera is also a dummy on the basepaths.

The Fister angle is silly to me (but to Gibbons I'm sure it's religion)- 2 hits in 9 at bats. I can't imagine that means anything. That's like scratching Kadri for Ben Smith because he has more goals against a particular goalie in a small sample size.

But this isn't a Carrera bash-fest. He's just a career mid-600 OPS guy who's playing above his head this year and has no business playing consecutive games, as well as pinch hitting, for a clearly superior player. And for a team that can't score runs to save its life, I'm not sure why they keep benching their hottest hitter.

Just in a general sense re: lineup construction I don't know how seriously I'd take career stats for something like OBP over year over year stats in dictating lineup selection. "How well did these guys get on base in 2012?" seems like information I'd struggle to see as relevant. Carrera is having a very good year in terms of OBP and that may outweigh historical or very recent information and I don't think it's entirely crazy to think that.

That said, I do think the more relevant point is that neither guy is very good. Pearce has a higher career value but almost 75% of his career value comes from one year. They're both basically replacement level guys.

So I guess I see it more like benching Ben Smith for Rich Clune because Rich Clune popped a few against a particular goalie. Maybe not the decision I'd make but sort of harmless in the grand scheme of things.

There was no intended snark in that comparison, but wow, that is a rich complaint coming from you.

Carrera's previous two years with the Blue Jays have been, respectively, atrocious and not very good. Again, you're only talking about his limited at bats this year.

And it is all moot based on my original point: Pearce is raking the ball, hitting around a 1200 OPS in the last month and a half. It's insane to keep benching him and pinch hit for him with an inferior bat.

There was no intended snark in that comparison, but wow, that is a rich complaint coming from you.

Not a complaint. I don't use snark in a derogatory sense. I was just saying that if you're going to be dismissive of the analogy you should at least get it right.

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Carrera's previous two years with the Blue Jays have been, respectively, atrocious and not very good. Again, you're only talking about his limited at bats this year.

No, I'm talking about the sum total. Carrera, in his time with the Jays, has an OBP that's virtually the same as Pearce's for his career.

So again, I'd put the thinking at "these guys are both marginal ball players, so I'm going to go with Carrera who's had some success against Fister, has the platoon advantage and adds some speed to the lineup".

Which, I grant you, isn't iron clad reasoning or anything but I still think the most important part is the "marginal ball players" bit.

The differences between the Yankees, Red Sox, and the Blue Jays. What those teams have done that we haven't; roster changes via prospects & youth movement; and what's in store for the future of the Jays as compared to the rest of the A.L....

Blue Jays acquire veteran catcher Miguel Montero from the Chicago Cubs in return for a player to be named later or cash considerations ( in which Chicago may pay all or some of Montero's $7M contract).

As of late, Montero's reputation has been less than stellar, being called "selfish" by the Cubs organization:

Game over. To late to find their groove this year. Very frustrating to say the least... batting with runners in scoring position has been horrendous. Sure they have had injuries but they have not capitalized all year on the opportunities they have had. Big hits have been few a far between. I love my Blue Jays but this just isn't their year.

Still believe in the core, a tweak of the roster and a change of luck could go along way next season.

Assessing the Jays' assets: the very good, the so-so, and the downright not-so-good. The fact that the Blue Jays currently harbour MLB's oldest roster (oldest team) and with the season they've had so far coupled with all of the injuries to key players at one time or other early in the season, and now, as the team enters the second half and with the trade deadline looming, the Jays management brass will need to decide whether to retool or rebuild:

Yup. Anyone not signed/controlled past this season should be traded for whatever they can get - and a few guys signed/controlled past this season should be made available, too. There's just too many teams between the Jays and the wildcard.

Yup. Anyone not signed/controlled past this season should be traded for whatever they can get - and a few guys signed/controlled past this season should be made available, too. There's just too many teams between the Jays and the wildcard.

The pending FAs aren't doing very well - Estrada, Liriano and Bautista.

Who do you have in mind to move who are controllable beyond this year? I wouldn't want to move Stroman, Sanchez or Osuna.

Who do you have in mind to move who are controllable beyond this year? I wouldn't want to move Stroman, Sanchez or Osuna.

Those three are probably the only players I put a "not for sale" sign on. I'd definitely listen on Donaldson, who is still a season away from free agency. I wouldn't be pushing him out the door, but, being that he's already in his 30s, he shouldn't be completely off limits. Obviously, moving him would signal the beginning of a full scale rebuild, but, with the age of the core of Jays' offence, that may be the right direction.

Happ has good value. Could get something for reliever Joe Smith assuming he's healthy. With the number of teams in who still think they have a shot might not be the deepest market place come the deadline.

As we've seen, the Blue Jays biggest problem this year has been their offence. But an even bigger problem, with all of it's vulnerabilities has been the rotation.

According to ESPN Statistics, the Jays overall pitching sits at 17th with a 4.48 ERA in the league. It ranks 19th when one takes into account their starters with a 4.73 ERA.

Last year, the Jays starters ranked 4th overall with a 3.64 ERA. Among one of the best in the league.

According to Baseball Reference, the Jays offence ranked sixth lowest in the league at 4.13/game.

Coupled with all of the injuries, the 'bad luck' or more aptly put "Murphy's Law" -- "what can go wrong will go wrong" -- whatever you want to call it, it is what it is that makes for a terrible combination of poor results. Which takes us back to the topic of depth and inconsistency, as I've said a hundred fold.

Depth as in relief pitching -- is Osuna the only good reliable guy they've got? As a closer, yeah. None of the Jays bullpen with the exception of Mike Bolsinger (and he's currently on the DL) has shown any real threat to be a good shutdown. Leone maybe. As for Tepera, Loup, Harrell....have your say. not much dependable depth there.

The starters, with the exception of Stroman and perhaps Happ, have been shaky at best. Estrada is havin a year he'll likely want to forget. Liriano? Sanchez? Hampered by recurring blistered finger problems yet again just when he was about to get back to his reliable self. (sigh).

Well, we can say the starting pitching and the offence have one thing in common: inconsistencies by far and wide. The depth is there but is there the willingness, the mental toughness, the confidence, etc. Let's put it this way, Justin Smoak is flying high this year. He's provided offence in a way the others have not, but where they should have -- Donaldson, Tulo, yes, even Jose.

Having guys like Steve Pearce, Devon Travis ( who was on track in having himself a career year until he got injured), and Smoak is great. Now what about the rest of the supporting cast? Goins & Barney are the weak chain in the order.

We can go on and on. The fact remains that the Blue Jays roster is the oldest in MLB, the most injury-prone team this year, lack of proper depth in key places, a general malaise that permeates, and etc.

Lots of questions and a smorgasbord of probable answers. Just like the Jays season.

One more thing: the farm system. It desperately needs to be built up more for the future of the parent team.

That being said, he's a low .700 OPS hitter right now with below average fielding and base-running skills. I don't imagine the Jays would get anything of note for him.

You never know. I'm sure there are still a couple GMs out there who think he'll rebound on a better team, and are banking on his ability to be a "big game player," etc. All it really takes is one to really fall in love with the idea of adding Bautista to their lineup, and suddenly, the Jays are pulling in a quality prospect or two for him.

You never know. I'm sure there are still a couple GMs out there who think he'll rebound on a better team, and are banking on his ability to be a "big game player," etc. All it really takes is one to really fall in love with the idea of adding Bautista to their lineup, and suddenly, the Jays are pulling in a quality prospect or two for him.

Also, there are teams with legit playoff aspirations who are giving regular at-bats to guys performing worse at positions Bautista can play(The Yankees at 1B, for instance).

My prediction is that the Blue Jays will do nothing at the deadline. All of their UFAs have had horrible seasons. I don't think the fanbase will tolerate trading Bautista, plus I don't think they could get a legit prospect back for him. I think they will largely keep the current team intact and then rebuild over the off season. They're not going to trade guys like Happ/Stroman/Osuna/Sanchez/Donaldson because those guys are a big part of the future of this team. Management is not going to throw the towel on both this season and next season. That would be catastrophic. We're not talking about Leafs fans here. These are Blue Jays fans. Extremely fickle. Rogers Centre will be a ghost town.

That being said, he's a low .700 OPS hitter right now with below average fielding and base-running skills. I don't imagine the Jays would get anything of note for him.

You never know. I'm sure there are still a couple GMs out there who think he'll rebound on a better team, and are banking on his ability to be a "big game player," etc. All it really takes is one to really fall in love with the idea of adding Bautista to their lineup, and suddenly, the Jays are pulling in a quality prospect or two for him.

I'd be more than happy with a quality prospect as a return, if he's willing to leave.

I'm not sure who Bautista supplants in NY though. Holliday and Frazier are both outperforming him (the latter albeit slightly but still).

I'm not sure who Bautista supplants in NY though. Holliday and Frazier are both outperforming him (the latter albeit slightly but still).

Not to get into a protracted statistical discussion but OPS isn't a great single number offensive metric(even OPS+). I don't think too many people within the advanced metrics community think a point of SLG is the equivalent of a point of OBP.

I'm not sure who Bautista supplants in NY though. Holliday and Frazier are both outperforming him (the latter albeit slightly but still).

Not to get into a protracted statistical discussion but OPS isn't a great single number offensive metric(even OPS+). I don't think too many people within the advanced metrics community think a point of SLG is the equivalent of a point of OBP.

What do you use though? Bautista's WAR is based on his OF ability but if you want him to be a 1B in NY then that value plummets. His OBP isn't that great either and it' just a little over .300 for the last month and a half.

It could be a decent acquisition in the hopes that a change of scenery or playoff chase might spark him, to be sure, but I don't think any team is going to give up a legit prospect for that chance. I think, if he moves, it will be for, at the most, a couple of low-mid range prospects and with Toronto eating a nice chunk of remaining $.

My prediction is that the Blue Jays will do nothing at the deadline. All of their UFAs have had horrible seasons. I don't think the fanbase will tolerate trading Bautista, plus I don't think they could get a legit prospect back for him. I think they will largely keep the current team intact and then rebuild over the off season. They're not going to trade guys like Happ/Stroman/Osuna/Sanchez/Donaldson because those guys are a big part of the future of this team. Management is not going to throw the towel on both this season and next season. That would be catastrophic. We're not talking about Leafs fans here. These are Blue Jays fans. Extremely fickle. Rogers Centre will be a ghost town.

Yeah, it's a pretty odd (for lack of a better word) situation that the team is in. Attendance is near the top of the MLB so from a business standpoint I can understand the reluctance to tear everything apart. You also can't tank and be saved by a Crosby or Matthews or McDavid either; these prospects take a lot more time and can be quite unpredictable. The farm system's best prospects are far away from the MLB too. So all of that combined with the division being wide open and the wild card dominated by mediocre teams makes the decision to blow it up that more difficult.

Personally I'd love to see major changes. This is a team that struggles to make basic, fundamental plays. They can't run, can't hit with RISP, are aging/injury prone and have been buoyed by a bullpen that has been surprisingly, and unrealistically, good. I just don't see any major changes happening.

I think if this team doesn't start moving out a few bodies and planning for the future it will be a major mistake that could set them back even further as far as competing again in the near future.

This team can't move runners or hit with RISP, they don't have a whole lot of speed on the basepaths, the defense has regressed a lot, injuries aside the starting pitching as a whole just hasn't been very good, etc, etc.

On the positive side Smoak has surprised and the bullpen hasn't been too bad.

What has been really crappy is the UFA players just being plain awful and making them worth next to nothing in a trade (Estrada, Liriano and Howell in particular). I still think someone will make a fair offer for Bautista, but he needs to waive his no-trade clause to make that happen. Really think you have to go beyond those guys and really think about moving guys like Happ, one of Barney/Goins, and maybe Donaldson too if you get an offer that blows your socks off.

I keep hearing people say they need to keep the core together for another run in 2018. Why? How will the team be any better than the 2017 version in that scenario? Personally I think the contention window has shut on the current group and its time to be smart and build for the future.

Next season should be the start of the transition as you can't get rid of all these contracts for older, declining players at once. The team will have to be built around guys like Martin, Tulo and Morales with younger, cheaper players with more upside filling in at some of the other positions. There are a few guys on the roster now who should not be moved and become key pieces of the future such as Osuna, Stroman, and Sanchez. The jury is still out on Travis with all the injury history and the Dee Gordon rumblings it makes me wonder if he gets moved to a corner outfield spot in the near future. I'd consider keeping Pillar with his great glove, but just wish he would improve with the bat.

As far as losing casual fans go I could care less about those people. I just hope Jays management will feel the same way and do what is best for the team, not for the bottom line. If you do what is best for the team these casual fans will come crawling back eventually anyway to jump on the bandwagon.

What do you use though? Bautista's WAR is based on his OF ability but if you want him to be a 1B in NY then that value plummets.

Well, I think the best approach to take is to not look for any single metric but rather have a composite picture based on a number of them. "How well is player X hitting" isn't a one answer question in the way that WAR, say, makes a question of a player's total raw value fairly straightforward.

What do you use though? Bautista's WAR is based on his OF ability but if you want him to be a 1B in NY then that value plummets.

Well, I think the best approach to take is to not look for any single metric but rather have a composite picture based on a number of them. "How well is player X hitting" isn't a one answer question in the way that WAR, say, makes a question of a player's total raw value fairly straightforward.

Yea, I agree with that. It would be interesting to see how well Bautista would perform in a market like NY, or some place similar. He just looks, to me, like he's close to being done, especially with the way he's been playing the last few months. I really don't see any team ponying up anything that great to acquire him.

I heard a rumor on TSN that the Jays are going to keep both Bautista and Estrada and sign them both to contract extensions.

Sounds like complete horse $hit to me! If you are fishing I'll bite! ;)

First off the Jays have 2 team options for Bautista for 2018 and 2019 so they already have him under control for the rest of his useful major league career if they so choose. I don't see the team electing to use those options, but at the same time Bautista can't be traded without his permission due to his 10 and 5 rights. If he doesn't allow the Jays to trade him this season I think they just elect not to pick up their option(s) on his contract and he becomes a UFA this fall. One day Jose's name will be up on the Level of Excellence, but I don't get the sense that anyone in the organization feels he shouldn't be traded for sentimental reasons.

As for Estrada why not trade him at the deadline and then bring him back next year when he hits the UFA market if you want him that badly? It would be poor asset management NOT to take that approach with him if that is your intent.I can't say for sure that BOTH Estrada and Liriano will be traded, but definitely feel that at least one of them will be. The Jays would be foolish to bring Estrada back judging by the results of the last couple months. Think it is a combination of back issues and age, but believe his best days are behind him and can't help this team going forward. Lastly on Estrada, I noticed he really went out of his way to sign a lot of autographs for Jays fans in Cleveland, could be his way of saying goodbye. He dodged the trade questions in his last interview, but his reaction to them and the look on his face were those of someone resigned to his fate.

No, Captain Canuck, they do not control Bautista for the next two seasons, those are mutual options meaning both sides have to agree to continue it year by year. Either side has the right to walk away. I highly doubt that Bautista is worth exactly the $18 million or whatever the contract says for next year. There is a 99% chance that he is either gone or they will re-negotiate a new contract.

As for your opinions on the rumors, I could see both players having interest in signing an extension now. It would prevent them from having to be uprooted. Both of them love Toronto, Bautista in particular, he has been here a long time. Neither one of them is going to bring back a major prospect. I was just reading that they might get Glen Sparkman from KC for Liriano. Neither Bautista nor Estrada will fetch more than that. I think there is more value in keeping both players around. Both should hopefully sign new reasonable contracts. If the Jays can get both of them on one year deals it would be fantastic. Then after the 2018 season they will have their options open. My opinion is that Bautista should be made a Blue Jay for life. He has earned it IMO.

I stand corrected on the options, but in any event the Jays will be the ones to decide what they want to do with Bautista. I still don't believe re-negotiating a contract with Jose is one of the possibilities. He was lucky to get his current deal with the team IMO. They didn't exactly rush out to sign him last off-season did they?

You are entitled to your opinions, I just don't see how bringing back older players who you can dump this season is particularly wise for the future. You aren't going to move the Martin and Tulo contracts and have a big decision to make on Donaldson in the next year. I heard the Sparkman rumour and think that is dumb as well. If they wanted Sparkman that badly they could have kept him and gave up nothing. To give him back to KC and then trade for him a month later is poor asset management. You saw what the 2017 team did and yet you want to bring back the same roster and expect a different result?If this team doesn't start building with an eye to the future you will be left with an old expensive mediocre roster with no chance at the playoffs...been there, done that!

I stand corrected on the options, but in any event the Jays will be the ones to decide what they want to do with Bautista. I still don't believe re-negotiating a contract with Jose is one of the possibilities. He was lucky to get his current deal with the team IMO. They didn't exactly rush out to sign him last off-season did they?

You are entitled to your opinions, I just don't see how bringing back older players who you can dump this season is particularly wise for the future. You aren't going to move the Martin and Tulo contracts and have a big decision to make on Donaldson in the next year. I heard the Sparkman rumour and think that is dumb as well. If they wanted Sparkman that badly they could have kept him and gave up nothing. To give him back to KC and then trade for him a month later is poor asset management. You saw what the 2017 team did and yet you want to bring back the same roster and expect a different result?If this team doesn't start building with an eye to the future you will be left with an old expensive mediocre roster with no chance at the playoffs...been there, done that!

I say buy low on both players. At worst we will get similar results to what they are doing now. However both could turn out to be incredible bargains, particularly Estrada. He was an elite pitcher not long ago. The Jays need to fill out the rotation and they are extremely thin in the outfield. Bautista has fielded extremely well this year and he has had ok production at the plate.

It's not time to rebuild yet. I understand your frustration, but the Jays' window is open for one more season while they still have Stroman/Donaldson/Sanchez/Pillar/Martin/Tulo. It's just not time yet IMO. Actually they face weak teams for the next three series, who knows what can happen. They can throw in the towel now and get three lousy prospects like Sparkman, or they can keep going with what they have and see what happens. IMO they should do a full scorched earth rebuild after next season if they continue to play poorly. I don't think the time is right currently.

Estrada was never an elite pitcher. He had two pretty good back to back years(3.5 and 3.6 bWAR's) but even still that was in significantly less than 200 innings and they were both with pretty high FIPs(because he's always had trouble keeping the ball in the park, as we've seen this year, if he's not effectively the best pitcher in the league at hit suppression he's going to have real problems).

I don't know how much you want to invest in the idea of what will be a 35 year old consistently delivering a career performance year-in and out. I think we saw enough from Dickey how that isn't a great investment.

I stand corrected on the options, but in any event the Jays will be the ones to decide what they want to do with Bautista. I still don't believe re-negotiating a contract with Jose is one of the possibilities. He was lucky to get his current deal with the team IMO. They didn't exactly rush out to sign him last off-season did they?

You are entitled to your opinions, I just don't see how bringing back older players who you can dump this season is particularly wise for the future. You aren't going to move the Martin and Tulo contracts and have a big decision to make on Donaldson in the next year. I heard the Sparkman rumour and think that is dumb as well. If they wanted Sparkman that badly they could have kept him and gave up nothing. To give him back to KC and then trade for him a month later is poor asset management. You saw what the 2017 team did and yet you want to bring back the same roster and expect a different result?If this team doesn't start building with an eye to the future you will be left with an old expensive mediocre roster with no chance at the playoffs...been there, done that!

I say buy low on both players. At worst we will get similar results to what they are doing now. However both could turn out to be incredible bargains, particularly Estrada. He was an elite pitcher not long ago. The Jays need to fill out the rotation and they are extremely thin in the outfield. Bautista has fielded extremely well this year and he has had ok production at the plate.

It's not time to rebuild yet. I understand your frustration, but the Jays' window is open for one more season while they still have Stroman/Donaldson/Sanchez/Pillar/Martin/Tulo. It's just not time yet IMO. Actually they face weak teams for the next three series, who knows what can happen. They can throw in the towel now and get three lousy prospects like Sparkman, or they can keep going with what they have and see what happens. IMO they should do a full scorched earth rebuild after next season if they continue to play poorly. I don't think the time is right currently.

I'm not advocating for a full out rebuild yet either, but definitely have to move some of the older guys out now. Liriano, Estrada, Joe Smith, Barney, and Bautista if you can. You keep Stroman, Osuna, Sanchez, Pillar, maybe Travis and that becomes your core to build around. Tulo and Martin stay because you can't move those contracts and then Donaldson you have to make a big decision on next year. The most pressing needs for next year are going to be finding 1-2 starting pitchers and 1-2 outfielders. I could live with another year of Bautista if there are no better options, but don't want to see Estrada back at all. Someone like Lance Lynn or Alex Cobb would be preferable.

I'm not frustrated in the least, could tell early on that it was a lost season. Like I said I don't want to see an old, expensive non-competitive team a few seasons from now and then we spend 20 years out in the wilderness...been there, done that! The next core is already in place, just a matter of adding a few more younger guys with cheaper, controllable contracts (Refsnyder is a start) and then bringing up the Bichettes, Guerreros and Biggios.

As for this season if you think the Jays have any chance you are lying to yourself. Do the math: 41-19, 42-18...that is what it would take at minimum to make the playoffs. Getting to .500 would be a lofty goal at this point.

Estrada was never an elite pitcher. He had two pretty good back to back years(3.5 and 3.6 bWAR's) but even still that was in significantly less than 200 innings and they were both with pretty high FIPs(because he's always had trouble keeping the ball in the park, as we've seen this year, if he's not effectively the best pitcher in the league at hit suppression he's going to have real problems).

I don't know how much you want to invest in the idea of what will be a 35 year old consistently delivering a career performance year-in and out. I think we saw enough from Dickey how that isn't a great investment.

Estrada's stats were at the top of the league for two seasons and he was lights out in the playoffs. The way you constantly disagree with everyone here gets really boring really quickly. Please go away and stick to hockey. You don't know what you're talking about. If you're going to disagree with someone at least get it right.

Estrada's stats were at the top of the league for two seasons and he was lights out in the playoffs. The way you constantly disagree with everyone here gets really boring really quickly. Please go away and stick to hockey. You don't know what you're talking about. If you're going to disagree with someone at least get it right.

You'll notice I listed actual stats in my post whereas you haven't. Estrada's "stats" range from good to bad in those years. He was top of the league in H/9 and was top 10 in WHIP and ERA+ for both years but he was never top 10 in IP, WAR, BB/9, HR/9, K/9, FIP or anything else.

So, again, two good years but nothing elite. And what largely drove his good WHIP and ERA numbers, hit suppression, isn't a stat you should put a ton of money on getting better with age.

Lastly, I don't make this personal and am using stats based arguments. You've got no standing to tell me where to post and if you don't like what I post you're free to either not respond or just generally get bent.

Jays GM Atkins and Shapiro both believe the Jays... "underperformed and underachieved both offensively and defensively this year"...

ďWe still feel like we have a great team for 2018 Ė that weíll need to add to,Ē said Atkins. ďThat could mean subtraction from this team. It might not. We would hope to and like to for this team to remain relevant and a contending team, potentially. Now I think the odds of that have decreased dramatically, but we still feel confident we can put a quality team on the field.Ē

Source: theathletic,com

While they sound like they've thrown in the towel on the season, so to speak, don't tell that to Josh Donaldson or Aaron Sanchez. They believe the team has enough time to turn things around. Striving for a sense of positivity in a season of negativity all around is not a bad thing. Believing that they can actually mitigate a complete and total turnaround is something else. The Blue Jays are gonna have to prove it on the field the rest of the way.

I don't know how much you want to invest in the idea of what will be a 35 year old consistently delivering a career performance year-in and out. I think we saw enough from Dickey how that isn't a great investment.

Dickey was 38 when he got here. From ages 35 through 37 he was consistently great. And he was a knuckleballer with a fastball in the low-80's. So I'm not sure how that relates to Estrada and his hypothetical success as a 34-36 year old (If anything, really, this all supports your argument).

With Estrada, for me the question/concern is about fastball velocity and if/when it's going to drop. He's actually up from last year and his K rate has improved. He has been hurt by the homerun (more than usual and, imo, mostly as a result of the juiced ball/bat bull that is going on this year), porous outfield defense and some major command struggles. His FIP is actually a full run lower than his ERA. I'd be fine with a one-year deal and a team option for the 2nd and, with some fine tuning and an improved defense behind him, I can see a really strong bounce-back year (or two).

Dickey was 38 when he got here. From ages 35 through 37 he was consistently great. And he was a knuckleballer with a fastball in the low-80's. So I'm not sure how that relates to Estrada and his hypothetical success as a 34-36 year old (If anything, really, this all supports your argument).

I may have written that paragraph poorly. Like you say, Dickey was a knuckleballer and as a result had a different trajectory with regards to his age. My point there was that the Jays paid such a high price for him based largely on a career year(he'd been good the previous two years, with WAR's of 3.6 both years, but in his Cy Young year he jumped to 5.8).

So I guess it's a little disjointed but all I mean is you shouldn't expect regular, non-knuckleball pitchers to match or improve on their career years at age 35 and you definitely shouldn't negotiate with them on that basis, the way the Jays sort of did with the Mets for Dickey.

With Estrada, for me the question/concern is about fastball velocity and if/when it's going to drop. He's actually up from last year and his K rate has improved. He has been hurt by the homerun (more than usual and, imo, mostly as a result of the juiced ball/bat bull that is going on this year), porous outfield defense and some major command struggles. His FIP is actually a full run lower than his ERA. I'd be fine with a one-year deal and a team option for the 2nd and, with some fine tuning and an improved defense behind him, I can see a really strong bounce-back year (or two).

I think you're getting at why FIP can be a valuable predictor. For the last 5 years Estrada's FIP has been fairly consistent, ranging from 3.86 to 4.88(and both of those are his last 2 Brewer years, with the Jays it's between 4.15 and 4.52) while his ERA has jumped around by 2 runs or so. He's not great in terms of walks allowed, he gives up too many HR and, before this season anyway, he hasn't struck many guys out. That makes his actual results largely dependent on things outside of his control like BABIP and the defense behind him.

I'm not as onboard as sum with the idea that pitcher's have very little input in how many hits they give up but I do think there's a lot of random chance in there so I think for Estrada to have the sorts of years he had in the two years prior, realistically, he's got to become one of the very best pitchers in the league at minimizing hits allowed. That strikes me as unlikely.

So I think he can be of some value going forward but I wouldn't be surprised if he hits a point where his FIP and his ERA sort of line up. A 4.00 ERA pitcher can be valuable but, you know, I don't know if it's valuable enough to not look to add assets instead.

Estrada's stats were at the top of the league for two seasons and he was lights out in the playoffs. The way you constantly disagree with everyone here gets really boring really quickly. Please go away and stick to hockey. You don't know what you're talking about. If you're going to disagree with someone at least get it right.

You'll notice I listed actual stats in my post whereas you haven't. Estrada's "stats" range from good to bad in those years. He was top of the league in H/9 and was top 10 in WHIP and ERA+ for both years but he was never top 10 in IP, WAR, BB/9, HR/9, K/9, FIP or anything else.

So, again, two good years but nothing elite. And what largely drove his good WHIP and ERA numbers, hit suppression, isn't a stat you should put a ton of money on getting better with age.

Lastly, I don't make this personal and am using stats based arguments. You've got no standing to tell me where to post and if you don't like what I post you're free to either not respond or just generally get bent.

Those are elite stats. He has been at the top of the league for the past two seasons. Up there with the very best. As usual you add nothing to the forum but your own inflated ego. It must be pretty sad to have to try to bring others down to your level. Please spare me your bull#$#% and if you're going to disagree with me, at least base it on something factual, not some random stat that you pulled out of your ass.

No, they're not. A 3.48 ERA is not a number that places him among baseball's best. Neither are sub-200 innings pitched(he ranked 25th in 2015, 30th in 2016). He had some good numbers, like I acknowledged, but nobody took him seriously as a Cy Young candidate in either year(a 10th place finish in 2015, no votes in '16) because, again, he did not pitch enough at a high enough level.

And all of the numbers I used are easy enough to look up on Baseball Reference. Whether you can wrap your head around them is up to you.

No, they're not. A 3.48 ERA is not a number that places him among baseball's best. Neither are sub-200 innings pitched(he ranked 25th in 2015, 30th in 2016). He had some good numbers, like I acknowledged, but nobody took him seriously as a Cy Young candidate in either year(a 10th place finish in 2015, no votes in '16) because, again, he did not pitch enough at a high enough level.

And all of the numbers I used are easy enough to look up on Baseball Reference. Whether you can wrap your head around them is up to you.

Ok so I guess all these people are idiots and don't know what they're talking about:

Marco Estrada has come into 2017 healthy and with the same elite stuff he has showcased since arriving in Toronto

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With the arsenal that Estrada relies on, itís entirely possible that he could continue his elite production over the next several years.

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Blue Jays pitching coach Pete Walker said Estrada has the respect of every guy in the clubhouse because of the way he carries himself and the work heís done to become an elite pitcher.

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Make a list of the best changeups in baseball. Cole Hamels comes to mind. Does Marco Estrada? He should. Estrada has an elite 21.63 percent whiff rate with the pitch, putting the offering among the league leading pitches for whiff rate.

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Often you will find a converted starter find success as a reliever, but Estrada has become elite while staying in the starting rotation.

Pete Walker was one of those people quoted. I guess you must just know more than him, right?

People like you truly are the scourge of the internet. You're completely full of hot air. Full of yourself. Always talking down others baselessly, disagreeing for no reason other than to pretend that you're "right". Get a life.

Ok so I guess all these people are idiots and don't know what they're talking about:

No, they're just exaggerating. Except for the one about the swing and miss rate on his change-up. I'm pretty sure the topic of conversation wasn't "Does Marco Estrada have a good swing and miss rate on one of his pitches" though.

People like you truly are the scourge of the internet. You're completely full of hot air. Full of yourself. Always talking down others baselessly, disagreeing for no reason other than to pretend that you're "right". Get a life.

But that's all you've do... ah forget about it you seem to have left anyway.

People like you truly are the scourge of the internet. You're completely full of hot air. Full of yourself. Always talking down others baselessly, disagreeing for no reason other than to pretend that you're "right". Get a life.

But that's all you've do... ah forget about it you seem to have left anyway.

People like you truly are the scourge of the internet. You're completely full of hot air. Full of yourself.

All he did was disagree with an opinion you posted on an internet discussion forum in a completely reasonable manner and you reacted in a completely unreasonable manner. I don't care what kind of opinion you have of Nik or any other poster here, you can't launch into attacks like that simply because somebody thinks that you're wrong on the internet.

Seriously, if you can't handle people disagreeing with you then just leave. You've threatened to do it like half a dozen times anyway. Including like an hour ago.

People like you truly are the scourge of the internet. You're completely full of hot air. Full of yourself.

All he did was disagree with an opinion you posted on an internet discussion forum in a completely reasonable manner and you reacted in a completely unreasonable manner. I don't care what kind of opinion you have of Nik or any other poster here, you can't launch into attacks like that simply because somebody thinks that you're wrong on the internet.

Seriously, if you can't handle people disagreeing with you then just leave. You've threatened to do it like half a dozen times anyway. Including like an hour ago.

You can't compare what I have done to his nonsense. I have simply become completely frustrated by the fact that he is a total idiot. He constantly disagrees baselessly with practically everything I say, I'm sure he does it to others. I'm not surprised to see you taking his side, either. You guys are like a pack of wolves, you have acted this way since I started posting here. It's like a fraternity. This is not a way to build any type of meaningful community. Birds of a feather flock together I guess. I actually really like many of the members here like Herman. It's a shame that people like Nik ruin it and to make matters worse idiot moderators like you condone his bull#$#% and enable his nonsense. I am an intellect. I guess I don't fit in here. Not much intellectual discussion, just a lot of bull#$#% and people tooting their own horn. I could learn more reading a gossip column.

You can find examples of me being hostile towards Nik but you won't find a single post by me talking down to people the way he does. And like I said, what I have done is simply in response to his complete and utter stupidity.

Well, since I've been named as sickbeast's favourite person here (cheers, bud), I guess I should say something.

I've had differences of opinion/interpretation with both Nik and sickbeast before and I've agreed with them many other times. I can see why sickbeast feels frustrated as Nik can be interpreted as acerbic (I think it's hilarious). He's really quite good at outlining his point of view with facts and illustrations. The people who find that grating tend to not like having their blind spots pointed out.

sickbeast, please re-read some of what you've posted recently (imagine it under a different username in the cold light of morning if need be). It sounds like someone who is exactly like the Nik you purport to want to defend us all from. No one is against you personally (well maybe now), but statements that don't jive will get discussed and argued about on the Internet. That's why we are here: to put our ideas out there and have them sharpened and refined by the community.

You can find examples of me being hostile towards Nik but you won't find a single post by me talking down to people the way he does. And like I said, what I have done is simply in response to his complete and utter stupidity.

Listen man, I get that you don't like Nik. And I get that you don't like me. You've made those two things clear before. I don't really care. Posters have discussions and disagreements with Nik and others every single day on these boards and it's been a very, very long time since that's caused a thread to be hijacked the way you hijacked this one. If you're incapable of having a civil discourse with another poster because of you're intense, personal dislike for them then just ignore them. You turned a perfectly reasonable debate about whether or not Marco Estrada is considered an elite pitcher into a one-sided pissing match. That's on you. Stop blaming others for it.

I heard a rumor on TSN that the Jays are going to keep both Bautista and Estrada and sign them both to contract extensions.

I would be on board for resigning both.

So, trying to get this thread back on track . . .

Estrada back on a short deal is worth considering - the Jays' defence has really let their staff down this year, and Estrada's number have taken a big hit because of that. Shore up the D next season, and he's probably back to being a valuable starter.

Bautista, however . . . based on the past two seasons, it's time to let him walk. He's become part of the defensive problem, as his mobility has become a major issue. Unless he moves to 1B, he's not someone you want out in the field on a day-to-day basis. His bat speed has also dropped significantly - to the point that he's an average to below average contributor overall. He still has some power left, but, when he doesn't go yard, he doesn't produce any offence of note. At his age, things are highly unlikely to improve, either.

Estrada back on a short deal is worth considering - the Jays' defence has really let their staff down this year, and Estrada's number have taken a big hit because of that. Shore up the D next season, and he's probably back to being a valuable starter.

Broadly speaking I agree with that. To my mind, the question is if you trade Estrada and get some prospects can you go out and sign someone who'll effectively replace that value.

Guys I apologize for going off the way I did, particularly to Nik the Trik and CarltonTheBear. My frustration got the better of me. I appreciate the way you guys handled it. I thought I was going to have my posts deleted or else get banned. Thank you for your understanding. I do sincerely apologize.

I heard a rumor on TSN that the Jays are going to keep both Bautista and Estrada and sign them both to contract extensions.

I would be on board for resigning both.

So, trying to get this thread back on track . . .

Bautista, however . . . based on the past two seasons, it's time to let him walk. He's become part of the defensive problem, as his mobility has become a major issue. Unless he moves to 1B, he's not someone you want out in the field on a day-to-day basis. His bat speed has also dropped significantly - to the point that he's an average to below average contributor overall. He still has some power left, but, when he doesn't go yard, he doesn't produce any offence of note. At his age, things are highly unlikely to improve, either.

Bautista since June 1st: .190 AVG, .299 OBP .333 SLG .279 wOBA 69 wRC+ 6HR 17RBI. His defense is below average and his base running is atrocious this year (UBR -4.6). I'm not optimistic that any of that will change next year when he's even older. They have to let him walk.

Yeah, I guess my only question re: Bautista is whether or not you bring him back for a year or two during a rebuild because he's a fan favourite and could theoretically be chasing some big milestones like 1000 RBI and(unlikely) 400 HR. Also, and this is sort of firing blindly, maybe you hope that he can regain some of his form if he's DHing every day.

I thought Bautista grounding into the game ending double play today following a blown save with runners advancing on wild pitches kind of summed up the season today. Finding ways to lose or be "unlucky". It definitely feels like that particular incarnation of the Jays had their shot the last couple of years and couldn't quite get it done and the era is ending.

I have no stats to back any of this up, it was just that kind of guy feeling.

I thought Bautista grounding into the game ending double play today following a blown save with runners advancing on wild pitches kind of summed up the season today. Finding ways to lose or be "unlucky". It definitely feels like that particular incarnation of the Jays had their shot the last couple of years and couldn't quite get it done and the era is ending.

I have no stats to back any of this up, it was just that kind of guy feeling.

It doesn't invalidate your notion but something that's maybe important to take note of is that if we use the difference between a team's record and their expected pythagorean W-L as "luck" then the Jays have actually been somewhat lucky this year as they're actually five games above it.

They've actually got the fifth worst run differential in the majors. Osuna being as good as he's been and some lucky bounces are probably all that separates the Jays from one of the worst records in the baseball.

That's quite interesting - I haven't been able to catch as many jays games this year as I didn't bother with MLB.tv and normally don't until later in the year when it gets to penant races and playoffs so I've been relying on UK tv to get my baseball fix.

But from watching at more of a distance I've picked up a sense of bad luck (injuries in the main) or players not performing as expected etc etc in the reports and social media so the notions and reality differ somewhat

Yeah, expected W-L isn't a perfect illustration of luck as a concept. There is just some plain ol' randomness involved. You're right that the Jays have been unlucky in terms of injury and in some cases just bizarre ones(Sanchez being unable to throw a baseball, for instance)

So a few trades going through and possibly a couple more still to come including possibly Happ. Are any of the pieces that have come back potential worthwhile prospects?

Hernandez, the OF received for Liriano actually has a lot of potential. He was ranked 6th out of Astros prospects at the beginning of the season and all the lists seem to have him in their top 10. Athletic, good AAA numbers, plays a position of dire need; it's a pretty nice return for a #5 pitcher who hasn't pitched well and whose contract is expiring.

So a few trades going through and possibly a couple more still to come including possibly Happ. Are any of the pieces that have come back potential worthwhile prospects?

None of the three that we know of so far have particularly high ceilings, from the looks of things, but they've all put up pretty decent minor league numbers. Teoscar Hernandez - the prospect they received from Houston - probably gets some MLB time this season. The others are at least a couple years away.

I like the Liriano trade, pretty solid return. Hernandez looks like a good prospect who is nearly MLB ready, look for him to get a September call-up. Not sure if Aoki is a throw-in, salary dump move by Houston or if Jays management actually plan on keeping him around until next season. Their latest buzzword has been "controllable" players and Aoki is arbitration-eligible this fall and not an UFA until 2019. Personally, I would like to see him non-tendered and move on (He'll be 35 before next season), but not so sure that is what will happen.

Hard to predict what the future holds for the 2 prospects in the Smith trade. Could be good, could be a waste of time...can't really say at this point with lower-level prospects.

Not surprised that Estrada wasn't dealt as he had no trade value. If he can string together a few starts like he had tonight though he could be a trade target for a contender in August.

Jose Bautista has been placed on revocable waivers. Sad. It could be the end of an era.

So I don't understand how the waiver process works in baseball. What does this mean? Is he still playing for the team?

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It's revocable waivers, so the Jays are basically making him available for trade. They can pull him back off waivers if they want. But this pretty much signals that Bautista's days as a Blue Jay are over, if not now, at the end of the season.

So I don't understand how the waiver process works in baseball. What does this mean? Is he still playing for the team?

If a team wants to make a trade after the July 31st deadline then they can only trade a player after they've gone through waivers. What revocable waivers does is let a team put a player on the waiver wire to see if a team makes a claim. If a team does, than they can pull him off waivers but it means any trade won't happen.

So, yes, for now he's still with the team. If he clears waivers though he might get dealt.

I feel like this opens the window a bit to him coming back next year because if he's traded and whoever he's traded to declines his option year he may be willing to come back at a reduced cost. I don't know if the Jays would be in on that but then again I really don't know what the Jays plans are long term.

So I don't understand how the waiver process works in baseball. What does this mean? Is he still playing for the team?

If a team wants to make a trade after the July 31st deadline then they can only trade a player after they've gone through waivers. What revocable waivers does is let a team put a player on the waiver wire to see if a team makes a claim. If a team does, than they can pull him off waivers but it means any trade won't happen.

So, yes, for now he's still with the team. If he clears waivers though he might get dealt.

I feel like this opens the window a bit to him coming back next year because if he's traded and whoever he's traded to declines his option year he may be willing to come back at a reduced cost. I don't know if the Jays would be in on that but then again I really don't know what the Jays plans are long term.

Is it like hockey, like they can claim him for nothing in return?

I ask because why would there be a market to deal him after everyone passes on him for free?

So I don't understand how the waiver process works in baseball. What does this mean? Is he still playing for the team?

If a team wants to make a trade after the July 31st deadline then they can only trade a player after they've gone through waivers. What revocable waivers does is let a team put a player on the waiver wire to see if a team makes a claim. If a team does, than they can pull him off waivers but it means any trade won't happen.

So, yes, for now he's still with the team. If he clears waivers though he might get dealt.

I feel like this opens the window a bit to him coming back next year because if he's traded and whoever he's traded to declines his option year he may be willing to come back at a reduced cost. I don't know if the Jays would be in on that but then again I really don't know what the Jays plans are long term.

Is it like hockey, like they can claim him for nothing in return?

I ask because why would there be a market to deal him after everyone passes on him for free?

Nobody is going to want to pay Bautista the $6 million remaining on his contract this year. If the Jays manage to deal him they will have to eat up most of his remaining salary. I would be shocked if someone wants Bautista for "free". I can't see much coming back to the Jays in return. I just hope this is a win-win scenario in the end. Bautista deserves that much. He has done a lot for this franchise. I hope this waiver process was initiated with his blessing.

Bautista has 10 and 5 rights so can't be traded unless he agrees to be dealt. I think the most realistic situation is that he is here until the end of the season and both sides part ways in the off-season.

I ask because why would there be a market to deal him after everyone passes on him for free?

It's not really like in hockey, no. In this instance, the Jays have right to pull him off waivers if they can't come to terms on a trade with the team that's awarded the claim. The other team only gets him for free if the Jays decide being rid of the contract is their primary goal - which is unlikely here, as all they need to do to be rid of the contract at the end of the season is decline their side of the mutual option.

If he ends up on waivers again this month (also very unlikely), then he'd be free to whoever claims him, but, unless a team really wants to be rid of a player, that generally doesn't happen with guys who are in the lineup every game.

I ask because why would there be a market to deal him after everyone passes on him for free?

Like Busta already explained, this process is a lot different than hockey. Jays traded Jeff Kent years ago in late august to acquire David Cone who, like Bautista, was put on waivers earlier in the month. So there can still be some substantial deals made, it just depends on the calibre of player traded I guess.

It's a weird August only thing. Otherwise, MLB doesn't really use waivers all that much during the season.

It's actually from August through to the end of the season. The difference being that players you trade for in August are post-season eligible, whereas the players you trade for in Sept/Oct aren't. Every once in a while you see a team make those later trades in an attempt to push them into the playoffs. The Jays did it years ago with Bud Black (current Rockies manager) and more recently with Darwin Barney.

A bit of a curious move at this point in the season. It could be they aren't sold on Tepesch and Rowley as 2/5ths of the rotation the rest of the way, but they are stretching out Biagini in Buffalo and have Brett Anderson down there as well so not like they didn't already have options. Maybe Estrada still gets moved before the end of the month?

Koehler is arbitration eligible and not an UFA until 2019, so could be part of the Jays plans next year as a 5th starter or long man in the pen provided he puts up better numbers.

A bit of a curious move at this point in the season. It could be they aren't sold on Tepesch and Rowley as 2/5ths of the rotation the rest of the way, but they are stretching out Biagini in Buffalo and have Brett Anderson down there as well so not like they didn't already have options. Maybe Estrada still gets moved before the end of the month?

Koehler is arbitration eligible and not an UFA until 2019, so could be part of the Jays plans next year as a 5th starter or long man in the pen provided he puts up better numbers.

No on Estrada being moved. He was claimed on trade waivers and the Jays pulled him back. The only way he moves now is if the Jays are willing to let him go for nothing on normal waivers.

My guess is this move was move about a team on the fringes of the playoff race picking up an experienced depth option for minimal assets. Gutierrez doesn't likely have an MLB future, and while Koehler isn't exactly a great addition, he's a reasonable option as an injury replacement/swing man type.

A bit of a curious move at this point in the season. It could be they aren't sold on Tepesch and Rowley as 2/5ths of the rotation the rest of the way, but they are stretching out Biagini in Buffalo and have Brett Anderson down there as well so not like they didn't already have options. Maybe Estrada still gets moved before the end of the month?

Koehler is arbitration eligible and not an UFA until 2019, so could be part of the Jays plans next year as a 5th starter or long man in the pen provided he puts up better numbers.

No on Estrada being moved. He was claimed on trade waivers and the Jays pulled him back. The only way he moves now is if the Jays are willing to let him go for nothing on normal waivers.

My guess is this move was move about a team on the fringes of the playoff race picking up an experienced depth option for minimal assets. Gutierrez doesn't likely have an MLB future, and while Koehler isn't exactly a great addition, he's a reasonable option as an injury replacement/swing man type.

Yeah it had completely slipped my mind that he had been claimed by "a mystery team" and therefore only eligible to be dealt to that team. Speculation at the time was an AL East team, lot of people were guessing the Yankees...so not surprising that the Jays pulled him back.

The Jays have Koehler down with the Dunedin Jays at the moment. It could be they need a place to get him some work with Buffalo, New Hampshire and Lansing all failing to make the playoffs and their seasons ending shortly. That should hasten the September call-ups somewhat as well with nothing to play for in the minors.

It's hard to judge much of what happens in September but both Hernandez and - to a lesser extent - Urena have shown a bit of something. Possible they'll both be on the roster next year?

Stroman has definitely show he's a top level ace pitcher as well.

But I reckon it'll be difficult for the Jays to bounce back towards the top of the division again next year...

The Jays should be fine next season. They had extremely bad luck with injuries this season. They don't have a lot of holes in the lineup and they have quite a bit of money to spend during the off season. They could very easily get a top flight free agent, maybe even two of them. They need one outfielder to replace Bautista, however they do have Dalton Pompey and also Anthony Alford who they can use there. Hernandez looks ready to me for left field every day. Tulo and Travis should both be back. All that's left is one starting pitcher and they could realistically use Biagini for that. Even if they sign no one they will be semi competitive with the players they already have. This might sound crazy but I hope they sign Bautista as a fourth outfielder and also as a utility player. Barney will be leaving and I can't think of a better guy to keep around as a Blue Jay for life and then make him a coach.

But I reckon it'll be difficult for the Jays to bounce back towards the top of the division again next year...

I think right now it's tough to say. The major questions facing the team have to do with aging/injuries. Can Tulo stay healthy as he declines? Can Martin bounce back at 35? Is Travis ever going to be able to stay on the field?

Then there are smaller questions. Is this year an outlier for Smoak? Is Morales really as bad as he's been? Which is the real Roberto Osuna? Who is the #4 starter?

I agree that it's unlikely that the Jays will rebound to a serious division contender but with the second wild card the way it is you can never rule out playoff contention.

Playoff contention would be good. I guess if you take out the horrific start the Jays had this year they're probably not far off being close to that second spot even.

At their worst, the Jays were 11 games below .500 - and that was in late April. By the end of May, they had overcome most of that, and were only a game below. They're current 8 games below. Without the bad start, they'd probably be 4 games above .500 right now. Every AL playoff team is at least 9 games above. Even without the bad start, with the way they've played over the course of the season, the Jays would be on the outside looking in.

Excited they have resigned Estrada to one year extension. The guys has been lights out except the first half of this year.

I've heard people say something similar but, aside from the fact that saying someone has been "lights out" except for half the year isn't saying much, it doesn't really jive with his numbers either. These are Estrada's ERAs by month:

April: 2.70May: 3.49June: 9.11July: 6.48August: 5.35September: 3.48

First Half ERA: 5.15Second Half ERA: 4.50

Now, you wrote your post before him getting rocked tonight when he was coming off three very good September starts but even then his year doesn't break down into first half good, second half bad. He was pretty good to start the year, terrible in the middle of the year and then rebounded a bit at the end.

That said, I think he was a little better this year than his numbers indicate. He suffered from an absurdly high opponents' BABIP in June which you'd want to ascribe at least a little bit to bad luck(although it was super low for most of September so...?) and some of his bad numbers have to be attributed to the crazy amount of HR hit this year.

That said I think we should adjust our expectations downward for him a little. Can a 35 year old Estrada be a valuable pitcher? I think so. Much more than a pretty good #3? Eh...

Tulo has yet to show up in TOR and now his D is slipping... yikes. What a monstrosity that contract has become. Complete different player in COL. I would like to think the Jays will better next year, younger and faster but I am worried about Travis/Tulo/Martin being able to contribute their share.

Tulo has yet to show up in TOR and now his D is slipping... yikes. What a monstrosity that contract has become. Complete different player in COL. I would like to think the Jays will better next year, younger and faster but I am worried about Travis/Tulo/Martin being able to contribute their share.

Important to keep in mind that a pretty significant chunk of the difference between Tulowitzki in COL and here is park effects.

I'm a Jays fan and if Guerrero is ready to take over mid-season next year or 2019 I'd actually rather they not sign a 32 year old Donaldson to a 20+ million dollar multi-year deal. Especially if there are options to put that money into the rotation.

I'm a Jays fan and if Guerrero is ready to take over mid-season next year or 2019 I'd actually rather they not sign a 32 year old Donaldson to a 20+ million dollar multi-year deal. Especially if there are options to put that money into the rotation.

I agree. They had better get a king's ransom for Donaldson though. At least four high end prospects.

I agree. They had better get a king's ransom for Donaldson though. At least four high end prospects.

So I did some thinking about this, to try and come up with a player who was similar in value to Donaldson who got dealt so as to gauge what he might fetch in a trade. I don't know that I came up with anything perfect but three deals came to mind that maybe give us a framework.

The first one was Chris Sale, probably because it's the most recent. Sale was a legit, #1 ace kind of guy traded in his prime and the White Sox got a pretty hefty return. They got one of the consensus top 10 prospects in baseball(Moncada), another top 100 guy(Michael Kopech) and then two lesser prospects.

That's not a great comp though. Sale is younger, has more team control and isn't actually as valuable on the field as Donaldson's been(19.5 bwar in his three best pre-trade years to Donaldson's 24.0). I also think teams tend to overpay for pitching.

So then I thought about Miguel Cabrera. That's a little more complicated though for a few reasons. Cabrera was significantly younger(25 to 31), Cabrera's value was artificially lower because he was playing out of position and the deal wasn't just for Cabrera but also had some salary throw-ins. Anyways, the structure's not all that different. Cabrera went for a consensus top 10 prospect(Cameron Maybin), a consensus top 20 prospect(Andrew Miller) and then a couple other guys who could generously be called B or B- prospects. But again, that was a weirder, bigger trade.

So then I thought, maybe the best comp for Donaldson is Donaldson? True, Donaldson didn't have an MVP and the eye-popping stats when Oakland traded him but his value in his two best Oakland years(15 bwar) wasn't much lower than his two best Jays years(16.3 bWAR).

Anyways, when the Jays traded for Donaldson then they maybe got something closer to your idea of four high value guys although they didn't get the top end talent Chicago or the Marlins did in their deals. The Jays traded a top 100 guy in Barreto, a fringe-y top 100 guy in Nolin, a good prospect in Graveman and then whatever we want to call Brett Lawrie(a good ball player but someone who'd stalled a little and struggled with injuries).

So there's no great comps. My guess though, and this is just a guess, is that if you trade Donaldson you'll probably get something similar to what Sale and Cabrera got but with maybe less high end value. So maybe a top 20 prospect, another top 100ish guy and then a B- sort of guy.

I agree. They had better get a king's ransom for Donaldson though. At least four high end prospects.

So I did some thinking about this, to try and come up with a player who was similar in value to Donaldson who got dealt so as to gauge what he might fetch in a trade. I don't know that I came up with anything perfect but three deals came to mind that maybe give us a framework.

The first one was Chris Sale, probably because it's the most recent. Sale was a legit, #1 ace kind of guy traded in his prime and the White Sox got a pretty hefty return. They got one of the consensus top 10 prospects in baseball(Moncada), another top 100 guy(Michael Kopech) and then two lesser prospects.

That's not a great comp though. Sale is younger, has more team control and isn't actually as valuable on the field as Donaldson's been(19.5 bwar in his three best pre-trade years to Donaldson's 24.0). I also think teams tend to overpay for pitching.

So then I thought about Miguel Cabrera. That's a little more complicated though for a few reasons. Cabrera was significantly younger(25 to 31), Cabrera's value was artificially lower because he was playing out of position and the deal wasn't just for Cabrera but also had some salary throw-ins. Anyways, the structure's not all that different. Cabrera went for a consensus top 10 prospect(Cameron Maybin), a consensus top 20 prospect(Andrew Miller) and then a couple other guys who could generously be called B or B- prospects. But again, that was a weirder, bigger trade.

So then I thought, maybe the best comp for Donaldson is Donaldson? True, Donaldson didn't have an MVP and the eye-popping stats when Oakland traded him but his value in his two best Oakland years(15 bwar) wasn't much lower than his two best Jays years(16.3 bWAR).

Anyways, when the Jays traded for Donaldson then they maybe got something closer to your idea of four high value guys although they didn't get the top end talent Chicago or the Marlins did in their deals. The Jays traded a top 100 guy in Barreto, a fringe-y top 100 guy in Nolin, a good prospect in Graveman and then whatever we want to call Brett Lawrie(a good ball player but someone who'd stalled a little and struggled with injuries).

So there's no great comps. My guess though, and this is just a guess, is that if you trade Donaldson you'll probably get something similar to what Sale and Cabrera got but with maybe less high end value. So maybe a top 20 prospect, another top 100ish guy and then a B- sort of guy.

I think you have to look at it. I don't think there is a reasonable package that gets Donaldson signed before the offseason next year. You trade Donaldson and quite frankly could hope that he ends up going to free agency and considers returning as a free agent if you want him back that badly.

Well, Donaldson is definitely going to be the player to watch during the off season. Everything else for the Jays is going to be kind of "meh". They need a starting pitcher, an outfielder, and maybe a utility player. I don't expect them to make a flashy move, particularly if they're not signing Donaldson to an extension. I really think the Jays need to take the opportunity to trade Donaldson for multiple prospects and do a mini rebuild. Who knows, they might still be able to compete for a wild card slot next season that way, and then in 2019 they will hopefully be stacked with young controllable talent. For the Jays to actually go for it next season they would have to commit close to $100M/year on multiple high end free agents. I really don't think they would ever go that route. I would be shocked. The risk management runs with any type of rebuild is that Rogers Centre will be a ghost town. We will see what happens.

This is the first time I have ever heard him actually say that. It's probably posturing to try to get himself a better contract. If he really likes it here so much he would have said something about it long ago.

We'll see what happens. There are pros and cons to either option (signing him or trading him). Trading him is risky in that you will probably never get a prospect in return that would develop into any type of comparable player. However it saves a lot of money and it gives the Jays more options seeing as they have guys like Guerrero coming up in their system. I would be shocked to see management commit long term to a player at this point. The Jays' window will close after 2018. I think they are going to keep Donaldson until at least the midpoint of the season to see where they are at in the standings. If they are below .500 I think they will move him.

His xwOBA (on-base-weighted average) described as a stat that measures a hitter's "launch angle and exit velocity" (instead of the boxscore stat results), - - - and one in which many GMs including the Jays' own Ross Atkins, believe it's a more accurate stat measurement - - show Bautista's decline.

From what I've heard, which is mostly hearsay, we shouldn't count on him ability to play 3B at the major league level.

Also, if he does end up at 3B in a few years, JD might be able to take over SS from after Tulo's contract expires.

Or if JD's defense regresses, he could move to 1st/DH.

There could be ways to have both Vlad and JD in the lineup, which could be very good especially if Bichette's bat plays at this level too.

Outside of being very skeptical that a 34 year old Donaldson would handle a move to SS well, I don't disagree with anything here. The Jays certainly don't have to trade Donaldson and keeping him around would be good strictly in terms of how good a ball player he is.

But the question then becomes can you sign him to the reported 5 year/150 million deal that's rumoured to be the starting point? Does that significantly hinder your ability to add elsewhere?

Maybe more to the point, if you sign that deal and benefit from the first few years of it how moveable is it if you eventually think you need to reset?

Diaz is solid insurance with the health issues plaguing Tulo and Travis. We saw last year that middle infield was a bit of a black hole production-wise at the plate after they went down with injuries.

The numbers that Diaz will put up with his bat should make up for what is lost defensively. It will be interesting to see where he fits into the order. St. Louis had him in the 2 spot quite a bit and the Jays definitely need to find a couple guys at the top of the order that can get on base and set the table for the big bats.

I saw this yesterday and I am still unable to figure out whether Stroman is upset that HE only found out via twitter or that Goins only found out via twitter. It has to be the latter, right?

Nope. For all Stroman's talent, he's a pretty big diva. He holds grudges against reporters who question him. He is in a big pissing match with Sanchez. Stroman's one of those guys who blows up over a lot of little stuff.

As for moving on from Goins, he's not good so it isn't a big deal but I think it's important to remember that they replaced him with Gift Ngoepe. A guy who is good defensively (like Goins) and is actually worse offensively. So I'm not exactly sure that I understand the move from an organizational standpoint.

As for moving on from Goins, he's not good so it isn't a big deal but I think it's important to remember that they replaced him with Gift Ngoepe. A guy who is good defensively (like Goins) and is actually worse offensively. So I'm not exactly sure that I understand the move from an organizational standpoint.

I think it makes sense if you consider that with Travis, Tulo and Diaz around ideally Goins(or whoever) wouldn't even be on the big league club next year. So how much value does Goins have as a 30 year old AAA player?

And, yeah, the idea that you won't need a 4th middle infielder next year with the injury issues is pretty unlikely but if you do...Goins has been sub-replacement level the last two years. So if you do need a 4th middle infielder for any real playing time you probably can go out and get someone comparable for nothing so it seems like you're not really gaining or losing anything talent wise and getting a little younger.

I think it makes sense if you consider that with Travis, Tulo and Diaz around ideally Goins(or whoever) wouldn't even be on the big league club next year. So how much value does Goins have as a 30 year old AAA player?

Agreed. With Diaz in the fold, instead of a 4th middle infielder, the Jays need a utility player with more utility than Goins.

I think it makes sense if you consider that with Travis, Tulo and Diaz around ideally Goins(or whoever) wouldn't even be on the big league club next year. So how much value does Goins have as a 30 year old AAA player?

Agreed. With Diaz in the fold, instead of a 4th middle infielder, the Jays need a utility player with more utility than Goins.

The Jays already have Pearce for that. What they need now is pitching and an outfielder. I would also like a better DH than Morales. I really think Travis should be the DH, in which case they should have kept Goins as their backup infielder, and just let Diaz play second base every day.

Morales should be traded. The Jays will have to pay a portion of his salary to get rid of him but it will be worth it.

If the Jays can get a starting pitcher like Arrieta and a decent outfielder, they will have a legitimate shot at the playoffs. From there who knows. I'm sure they will keep Donaldson until the deadline and then make a decision. They could wind up as buyers and then try to make another run like what AA did a couple of years ago.

I really think Travis should be the DH, in which case they should have kept Goins as their backup infielder, and just let Diaz play second base every day.

The thing about that, other than the fact that Goins is still eminently replaceable, is that if you move Travis to DH you might keep him healthy but his bat as a DH is much less valuable than it is as a reasonably defensively competent 2B. Consider that at 2.9 Travis' bWAR in 100 games in 2016 was just as valuable as Edwin Encarnacion's whole season last year hitting 38 homeruns and getting on base at a .377 clip.

So it's not the wrong move necessarily but I honestly think that if the team has even a shot at real playoff noise then they're going to need to hit the jackpot on some moves and hoping Travis can stay healthy at 2B might be one of those.

Though not confirmed in earnest, there is speculation that Rogers Communications (the owners of the Blue Jays) may sell it's interest in the team.

The company, in a bid to shed debt, free up much-needed capital, and a general change in it's investment infrastructure, could net an estimated $1.65B in a deal to divest itself of the baseball franchise, but would still pursue a sports programming deal. Rogers points to their 37.5% stake in MLSE as an example of it's broadcast rights.

For more on this story:https://www.thestar.com/business/2017/12/06/why-a-blue-jays-sale-may-make-sense-for-rogers.html (https://www.thestar.com/business/2017/12/06/why-a-blue-jays-sale-may-make-sense-for-rogers.html)

Stanton to the Yankees. With Ohtani going to the Angels thatís going to make the playoffs pretty unlikely for the Jays. Maybe time to reconsider trading Donaldson at this point.

Things are up in the air right now with the Jays. They can go one of two ways, and both choices have serious consequences for the long term future of the team. They can go for it now by adding a couple of pieces, maybe Arrieta and a good outfielder. Or, as you say, they can trade Donaldson and rebuild. If they go for it and fail that could be devastating for the team. Actually even if they load up I don't think they can beat the Yankees. So the rebuild option looks safer, particularly if Rogers wants to sell the team. The real wild card in all this is the fans. If they rebuild they may lose a lot of fan support, and that has its on repercussions. I know I wouldn't want to be Atkins or Shapiro right now. They are in an extremely difficult situation. I hope they are able to do a decent job. This could be a very interesting off season.

Things are up in the air right now with the Jays. They can go one of two ways, and both choices have serious consequences for the long term future of the team. They can go for it now by adding a couple of pieces, maybe Arrieta and a good outfielder. Or, as you say, they can trade Donaldson and rebuild. If they go for it and fail that could be devastating for the team. Actually even if they load up I don't think they can beat the Yankees. So the rebuild option looks safer, particularly if Rogers wants to sell the team. The real wild card in all this is the fans. If they rebuild they may lose a lot of fan support, and that has its on repercussions. I know I wouldn't want to be Atkins or Shapiro right now. They are in an extremely difficult situation. I hope they are able to do a decent job. This could be a very interesting off season.

That's the crux of the situation, really. At this point, you have to look at what the most realistic scenario is for the next 3-5 years. Do they have a realistic shot at a title? I'd say no. I think that window closed after the 2016 season, and their current core players are already mostly into their 30s. The immediate future does not look particularly bright, and they're not a particularly appealing destination for free agents right now (especially starting pitchers - a lot of guys wouldn't want to face that Yankees' lineup multiple times a season right now, and I can't blame them). 3-5 years from now? The Yankees will be in the position the Jays are now, and, if the rebuild starts in earnest now, the Jays should should have some quality pieces hitting the MLB roster. Maybe a full-on scorched earth tear down is not the right play (as guys like Stroman, Sanchez, etc., could still be solid contributors in 3 years), but moving out some of the older, more expensive pieces - especially high value guys like Donaldson - is the smarter move right now.

Things are up in the air right now with the Jays. They can go one of two ways, and both choices have serious consequences for the long term future of the team. They can go for it now by adding a couple of pieces, maybe Arrieta and a good outfielder. Or, as you say, they can trade Donaldson and rebuild. If they go for it and fail that could be devastating for the team. Actually even if they load up I don't think they can beat the Yankees. So the rebuild option looks safer, particularly if Rogers wants to sell the team. The real wild card in all this is the fans. If they rebuild they may lose a lot of fan support, and that has its on repercussions. I know I wouldn't want to be Atkins or Shapiro right now. They are in an extremely difficult situation. I hope they are able to do a decent job. This could be a very interesting off season.

That's the crux of the situation, really. At this point, you have to look at what the most realistic scenario is for the next 3-5 years. Do they have a realistic shot at a title? I'd say no. I think that window closed after the 2016 season, and their current core players are already mostly into their 30s. The immediate future does not look particularly bright, and they're not a particularly appealing destination for free agents right now (especially starting pitchers - a lot of guys wouldn't want to face that Yankees' lineup multiple times a season right now, and I can't blame them). 3-5 years from now? The Yankees will be in the position the Jays are now, and, if the rebuild starts in earnest now, the Jays should should have some quality pieces hitting the MLB roster. Maybe a full-on scorched earth tear down is not the right play (as guys like Stroman, Sanchez, etc., could still be solid contributors in 3 years), but moving out some of the older, more expensive pieces - especially high value guys like Donaldson - is the smarter move right now.

I agree here. Doing things in half-measures isn't going to get the Jays very far, either in the near nor long-term. Success requires careful planning, vision, and foresight, something this team needs to begin gaining some ground on if it even hopes to be a contender once again in the near future.

They have some young pieces that can be part of a great team in 2/3 years, but for now, guys like Donaldson need to go, the roster as presently constructed has no shot at winning a championship and close to no shot at the playoffs.

Get what you can for guys 28+ and see what you have in your farm system when the dust settles.

They have some young pieces that can be part of a great team in 2/3 years, but for now, guys like Donaldson need to go, the roster as presently constructed has no shot at winning a championship and close to no shot at the playoffs.

Get what you can for guys 28+ and see what you have in your farm system when the dust settles.

Shapiro said today that the Blue Jays should have done a rebuild a year ago but they were afraid of what it would do to the fan base. So take that for what it's worth. I'm not sure what to read into it. Either he's saying that they're still too afraid to do the rebuild, or else that it's even more urgent now seeing as they should have done it already. It's kind of nebulous. I'm sure that was intentional on Shapiro's behalf.

My love of saying I told you so aside, I did say all this when they made those moves in the summer of 2015 and when AA left. The thing is now they should be generating some pitching/roster prospects so that hopefully you can build a real organization around guys like Guerrero.

Well, the bigger problem is that Shapiro and Atkins feel that they can't do their best job as president and GM without being affected by outside influences. Shapiro basically came out and said today that he hasn't been making decisions in the absolute best interests of the team. He has been allowing outside influences (the fanbase and possibly ownership also) to cloud his judgement. We all know what this BS did to the Leafs for all those years. This could be the start of the dark ages for the Blue Jays, unfortunately.

Well, the bigger problem is that Shapiro and Atkins feel that they can't do their best job as president and GM without being affected by outside influences. Shapiro basically came out and said today that he hasn't been making decisions in the absolute best interests of the team. He has been allowing outside influences (the fanbase and possibly ownership also) to cloud his judgement. We all know what this BS did to the Leafs for all those years. This could be the start of the dark ages for the Blue Jays, unfortunately.

I don't really think "ownership" qualifies as an outside interest. Sports teams are businesses, businesses are into making money. For years the Leafs were lazy because of their belief that they would be profitable no matter what. Other teams don't have that luxury and so, yes, they make decisions with one eye on the bottom line. That's not really a problem to be solved and it's not unique to the Jays.

It really seems like management is doing nothing. I really thought we would hear something by now. Apathy is going to get the Jays nowhere. They either need to go for it or rebuild. Standing pat with their current roster when then came in last place last season is a recipe for disaster.

The best we can hope for in 2018 is the pitching staff remains healthy, Travis(best pure hitter on the team) and Tulo come back healthy and remain that way the entire season, possibly sign JB to a 1 year incentive laden contract he might be good for 20 homers and a .750+ OPS. That would put us in contention for a wild card spot. We are better than the Rays and the Orioles

It really seems like management is doing nothing. I really thought we would hear something by now. Apathy is going to get the Jays nowhere. They either need to go for it or rebuild. Standing pat with their current roster when then came in last place last season is a recipe for disaster.

The best we can hope for in 2018 is the pitching staff remains healthy, Travis(best pure hitter on the team) and Tulo come back healthy and remain that way the entire season, possibly sign JB to a 1 year incentive laden contract he might be good for 20 homers and a .750+ OPS. That would put us in contention for a wild card spot. We are better than the Rays and the Orioles

The issue for the WC isn't likely to be the Rays or Orioles. It'll be being better than teams like the Angels, Twins and Red Sox.

It really seems like management is doing nothing. I really thought we would hear something by now. Apathy is going to get the Jays nowhere. They either need to go for it or rebuild. Standing pat with their current roster when then came in last place last season is a recipe for disaster.

The best we can hope for in 2018 is the pitching staff remains healthy, Travis(best pure hitter on the team) and Tulo come back healthy and remain that way the entire season, possibly sign JB to a 1 year incentive laden contract he might be good for 20 homers and a .750+ OPS. That would put us in contention for a wild card spot. We are better than the Rays and the Orioles

The issue for the WC isn't likely to be the Rays or Orioles. It'll be being better than teams like the Angels, Twins and Red Sox.

Not going to win without pitching and we have a much better staff than both the Angles(even with Otani) and the Twins.

I'm not forgetting him. I'm just saying that the Angels had a lower ERA than the Jays did last year. Yes, the Jays will hopefully have a healthy Sanchez and that will presumably positively affect the Jays ERA but the Angels will have Ohtani which will presumably do the same for them. They also might have a healthy Garrett Richards. And so on and so forth.

So will the Jays have a lower ERA than the Angels next year? Maybe but it's far from a sure thing.

the Twins' bad pitching didn't stop them from winning 85 games last year.

Yeah. The Twins have the distinct advantage of playing in the AL Central, so, whatever talent advantages the Jays may have are more than made up for by how much easier Minnesota's schedule is going to be.

I'm not forgetting him. I'm just saying that the Angels had a lower ERA than the Jays did last year. Yes, the Jays will hopefully have a healthy Sanchez and that will presumably positively affect the Jays ERA but the Angels will have Ohtani which will presumably do the same for them. They also might have a healthy Garrett Richards. And so on and so forth.

So will the Jays have a lower ERA than the Angels next year? Maybe but it's far from a sure thing.

Well the thing is, even if everything does go right and the Jays can claim the wild card, they will still have to beat the Yankees. Picture Judge and Stanton hitting back to back in the Yankees lineup. They are going to light it up. I just can't see the Jays beating the Yankees this year in any capacity. Toronto fans aren't stupid, either. The fans are going to be extremely upset if they parade the same team out there as they had last season and they lose again. The fans would tolerate a full and proper rebuild better than that. If they try to scramble and rebuild at the end of next season I don't think they will be able to do it properly. There's just not enough time. I guess they could get something at the trade deadline for Donaldson. Beyond him I'm not too sure though. We gave up a top pitching prospect for each deadline piece that we acquired.

It's really hard for us to know at this point what is really going on. Perhaps the Cardinals just aren't offering anything of significance for Donaldson.

I think the monkey wrench in all of this is management's insistence that they get major league talent *and* prospects for Donaldon. They would do better by only acquiring prospects and then just tank. The Jays aren't going to win next season. They should stop pretending otherwise. Like I said, the fans aren't stupid. Actually Toronto fans are probably some of the smartest fans in the whole league.

Well the thing is, even if everything does go right and the Jays can claim the wild card, they will still have to beat the Yankees. Picture Judge and Stanton hitting back to back in the Yankees lineup. They are going to light it up. I just can't see the Jays beating the Yankees this year in any capacity. Toronto fans aren't stupid, either. The fans are going to be extremely upset if they parade the same team out there as they had last season and they lose again. The fans would tolerate a full and proper rebuild better than that. If they try to scramble and rebuild at the end of next season I don't think they will be able to do it properly. There's just not enough time. I guess they could get something at the trade deadline for Donaldson. Beyond him I'm not too sure though. We gave up a top pitching prospect for each deadline piece that we acquired.

I more or less agree with you strategically. Where I don't necessarily agree with you is with the idea of fans as a monolith in anyway or another. Yes, some fans will not be happy with the Jays even if they make a wild card because they have a very small chance of then making real noise in the playoffs and they'll have lost a year in what would be a rebuild.

That said, there are a lot of casual fans who would just be happy with meaningful September baseball. Maybe a little bit of scoreboard watching. You or I could say that those fans are wrong or misguided if we want but there is a large segment of the ticket buying public who really don't think about things like long-term planning or a team's prospect base. Heck, a lot of fans are kids and try explaining a long term rebuild to someone under the age of 12 and watch their eyes glaze over.

So, again, I think you're right in terms of what strategy would bring the team to a state where they would be real championship contenders in the least amount of rebuilding time I don't necessarily agree that "the fans" wouldn't give a range of opinions on it. We can not like Rogers making moves with an eye on the budget sheet but we should at least be fair with what those costs are. If the Jays tank it, and really tank, and lose 90-95 games next year then attendance and viewership will sink and significantly so.

I think the monkey wrench in all of this is management's insistence that they get major league talent *and* prospects for Donaldon.

That depends on what they mean there. I think, for the purposes of tanking and rebuilding, that a talented 21 or 22 year old player is significantly more valuable than a prospect just because you have a pretty good idea that someone of value will still be around when the team is competing again but probably won't be good enough to win many games on their own.

A good example of this is the Astros. Back when they were losing 100 games a year they weren't devoid of young MLB talent. They still had guys like Altuve and Keuchel around in pre-superstar mode(or in Keuchel's case just being outright bad). If that's the sort of "major league talent" the Jays are looking to add for Donaldson I think that's a good idea.

Fair enough. We'll see what happens. If management does nothing it's going to be hard to be excited about the team for 2018. Even if they trade Donaldson and rebuild I would still want to watch out of interest. Actually I would find that more interesting than watching the same team as we saw last season. If they do that I will find it frustrating to watch. Seeing Tulo and Travis getting injured is going to be hard to watch. Same goes for Martin and any of the pitching staff. And thinking that those guys are not going to be injured is a pipe dream.

The Jays just signed Curtis Granderson to a one year deal worth $5 million. I can't say I understand this one. He has a .212 batting average. This is a huge slap in the face to Jose Bautista. This is not how the franchise should be treating a franchise icon like Bautista. Very sad. I certainly hope this is not the only outfielder they will get.

The Jays just signed Curtis Granderson to a one year deal worth $5 million. I can't say I understand this one. He has a .212 batting average. This is a huge slap in the face to Jose Bautista. This is not how the franchise should be treating a franchise icon like Bautista. Very sad. I certainly hope this is not the only outfielder they will get.

Batting average? Cute.

Last season, Granderson was at least a roughly average bat: OPS of .775, OPS+ of 103, and WAR of 1.5. Bautista, on the other hand: OPS .674, OPS+ 76, and WAR -1.7.

Granderson may not be elite or anything, but, at this point, he's an upgrade on Bautista in basically every way.

Granderson will be turning 37, but at this point he is better than Bautista and if nothing else he is a lefty bat which the Jays needed. Jays also need bats at the top of the order and Granderson hit lead-off for the Mets in 30 games last year. It's a 1 year deal so I wouldn't get too bent out of shape over it. I still think the Jays add another OF before the season starts.

Granderson will platoon in RF and with Steve Pearce in LF & Pillar in CF, it does make for a reasonable trio of arms & legs. However, according to MLB sources, the Jays were interested in Lorenzo Cain prior to the Granderson signing.Their interest in Cain is not completely out of the woods yet.

Granderson will be turning 37, but at this point he is better than Bautista and if nothing else he is a lefty bat which the Jays needed. Jays also need bats at the top of the order and Granderson hit lead-off for the Mets in 30 games last year. It's a 1 year deal so I wouldn't get too bent out of shape over it. I still think the Jays add another OF before the season starts.

I doubt it. They have Pillar, Pearce, Carrera, Granderson, Hernandez, Pompey now as outfield candidates. I think this was just cheap addition.

Hope Rogers likes empty seats because that's what there going to get with complete unwillingness to do anything meaningful. Trade Donaldson and get on with it because I place the possibility of Jays signing him to near what he wants/deserves at 0%.

I guess I'm frustrated we are headed for a rebuild, Tulo sucks, Martin's to old, bullpen is awful, old vet signing don't excite me. I wish it was possible to reward the fans for their loyalty but realistically you probably can't with this group.

Hope Rogers likes empty seats because that's what there going to get with complete unwillingness to do anything meaningful. Trade Donaldson and get on with it because I place the possibility of Jays signing him to near what he wants/deserves at 0%.

I guess I'm frustrated we are headed for a rebuild, Tulo sucks, Martin's to old, bullpen is awful, old vet signing don't excite me. I wish it was possible to reward the fans for their loyalty but realistically you probably can't with this group.

The starters/closer are stellar, you can't build around that?

Realistically the Jays were always going to be bad next year. They don't have the prospect depth to make immediate impact trades and they don't have the cap flexibility to just sign FA's until they're in contention(think Tulo sucks if you want, the Jays still have to pay him).

I don't know what fans might have expected. When AA went all in and impatiently tried to win on the backs of guys like Tulo and Price did Fans think the team would be good forever? That trading away top prospects by the barrel had no future impact? Unless you said those moves had real downside at the time, and believe me some people did, then for fans to turn around and be upset when the bill is due doesn't really seem like loyalty worth rewarding.

Ultimately, the more I think about it the more I think a holding pattern might be the best move. They don't have the chips to push in but they also have guys like Stroman and Sanchez that they don't want to alienate by stripping the rest of the team for parts.

I was good with going all in to try to win when they did. I think it was worth it, even without the desired result. I'd be all for a rebuild at this point but I see the logic in not alienating their young pitchers.

Granderson will be turning 37, but at this point he is better than Bautista and if nothing else he is a lefty bat which the Jays needed. Jays also need bats at the top of the order and Granderson hit lead-off for the Mets in 30 games last year. It's a 1 year deal so I wouldn't get too bent out of shape over it. I still think the Jays add another OF before the season starts.

I will give you the left handed bat as well as the addition of another OF, which they just did in a trade with St. Louis for Grichuk, but otherwise I see no particular upgrade in having Granderson over Bautista, subject to the proviso that Jose would come back for $5M.

I will give you the left handed bat as well as the addition of another OF, which they just did in a trade with St. Louis for Grichuk, but otherwise I see no particular upgrade in having Granderson over Bautista, subject to the proviso that Jose would come back for $5M.

As for Grichuk, a batting average of .238 does not impress me.

So, you're just going to ignore that he's a significant defensive upgrade, and virtually every offensive metric had him as substantially more valuable than Bautista this past season?

So what do you guys think of the Randal Grichuk trade? I like it personally. Now the Jays actually have infield and outfield depth. Now what they desperately need is a backup catcher, and then some more pitching help if they have any money left. I'm impressed with what management has done with a very limited budget. The Jays will definitely be more competitive this season, which is impressive because their competitive window has been closing hard lately. They have a half decent shot at a wild card spot now. Not too bad at all. Things are looking like they will remain a decent team for years to come also. I haven't been a big fan of Atkins and Shapiro but I'm coming around. We'll see what else they can do before spring training starts.

Yelich would cost Vlad Jr + 2-3 more top prospects. Cain is 32 when the season starts and signed 5 years @ 80 million.

Kinda no brainer non-deals, imo at least.

I would have been fine with the 5 years for Cain. 37 isn't the end of the world if the assumption is you are legitimately trying to win today and tomorrow. If the argument is to be not bad enough to win 50 games this year but not really try and win then sure, don't spend the money and have it sunk into the payroll for when Bo/Vlad/Alford come up.

Yelich would cost Vlad Jr + 2-3 more top prospects. Cain is 32 when the season starts and signed 5 years @ 80 million.

Kinda no brainer non-deals, imo at least.

In my experience as a Leafs fan when fans are generally frustrated with the team's inability or unwillingness to make big moves they'll react badly to any big move made by anyone else with out a lot of regard to the particular feasibility or wisdom of the moves.

Yelich would cost Vlad Jr + 2-3 more top prospects. Cain is 32 when the season starts and signed 5 years @ 80 million.

Kinda no brainer non-deals, imo at least.

In my experience as a Leafs fan when fans are generally frustrated with the team's inability or unwillingness to make big moves they'll react badly to any big move made by anyone else with out a lot of regard to the particular feasibility or wisdom of the moves.

I think you can consider moving Bo Bichete as a potentially reasonable move simply because his swing is so ugly that there is potential for it to go awry. I don't think there is a deal on the market that I would really want to move Vlad for at this point. He has the range to hit like his Dad but he is somewhat patient at the plate.

I donít know, it seems like Stroman has some paper thin skin and seems to lash out on Twitter over a lot of stuff.

That's sort of what I mean though. You know he's that kind of guy so you're going to go to the wall over a relatively small sum? I get you can't give the guy everything he wants but we're not talking millions here and you want to get him signed to a long term deal in the near future anyway.

If the Jays are going to keep pretending they're a mid-market team and spending like it they can't be too picky about what sorts of talented guys they try to keep around. The ace they have might have to be handled delicately. If they were willing to go out and spend on an Arrieta or Darvish they could be less willing to put up with nonsense. Seems like the risk outweighs the reward here.

It's sad to see Lawrie go out the way he did. I would have rathered him over Solarte or Diaz as our infield backup. He would have been a fan favorite here. It must be injuries. He's a very talented player.

So Donaldson is not signing here and he expects to be a free agent in August. Hopefully the Jays can get something for him at the trade deadline. If not they will at least get a compensatory draft pick. I think with Guererro Junior coming up it kind of makes sense to let Donaldson walk. Too bad. He's an outstanding player.

Jays have traded RH reliever Seung-hwan Oh to Colorado.Nothing confirmed yet, but return is reported to be a pair of minor league 1B, Chad Spanberger and Sean Bouchard. If that is indeed the return then this is a solid deal for the Jays.

Jays have traded RH reliever Seung-hwan Oh to Colorado.Nothing confirmed yet, but return is reported to be a pair of minor league 1B, Chad Spanberger and Sean Bouchard. If that is indeed the return then this is a solid deal for the Jays.

Eh that seems like a pretty weak return to me. Both are 22, 1B playing A-ball. And Oh has a cheap option for next year. He should have been/be able to yield a better return than that..

Eh that seems like a pretty weak return to me. Both are 22, 1B playing A-ball. And Oh has a cheap option for next year. He should have been/be able to yield a better return than that..

For a reliever who isn't a closer, it's an excellent return - even with Oh's option for next season. Spanberger has put up huge power numbers, and is only in his 2nd professional season - which is why he's only in A-ball. Bouchard is less impressive, but also in his 2nd professional season and he's played more as an OF this season than a 1B.

Eh that seems like a pretty weak return to me. Both are 22, 1B playing A-ball. And Oh has a cheap option for next year. He should have been/be able to yield a better return than that..

For a reliever who isn't a closer, it's an excellent return - even with Oh's option for next season. Spanberger has put up huge power numbers, and is only in his 2nd professional season - which is why he's only in A-ball. Bouchard is less impressive, but also in his 2nd professional season and he's played more as an OF this season than a 1B.

Turns out the return is Spanberger (Good power but hitter friendly park + crappy BB rate +1B position isn't all that encouraging) and Hall, a LH OF drafted 35th overall with a bit of potential (plus a PTBNL or cash). Not a bad return (certainly not excellent) but yea, I guess you won't get a whole lot for a reliever, despite the cheap 2nd year option. I'm happy with this for a piece picked up for nothing.

Jays have cut ties with Roberto Osuna, trading him to Houston for former closer Ken Giles, minor league RHP Hector Perez and minor league RHP David Paulino.

Couple of the Astros better prospects...Perez is in A ball so a few years away, Paulino was highly regarded prior to a PED suspension last year...could be in the Jays rotation mix going forward.

As for Osuna, you never like to lose that type of talent (believe the youngest player to reach 100 saves in MLB history). Innocent until proven guilty right?, but at the end of the day if things didn't go in his favour the Jays would get even less in return (if anything) and there is no way he would have been able to pitch for Toronto again.

Innocent until proven guilty is a standard for a court of law and potentially some quasi-judicial settings(work disputes, depending on collective bargaining). If the Jays themselves know certain things, they're not obligated to somehow "prove" it before acting in response.

Source: #BlueJays decided earlier this season that Roberto Osuna would not pitch for them again at @MLB level following the domestic violence incident. Blue Jays ownership and management decided to make the best trade they could. This was it. @MLBNetwork

Can't stain the corporate brand with that kind of thing, Christ they let go of Gregg Zaun for inappropriate behaviour, not beating the S__t out of his girlfriend. I knew he was toast the minute my son told me the report.

Gibbons talked with Sanchez via text. Says Sanchez feels good. Also says that Sanchez pitched better than his line indicates. Several double plays not turned. In other starter news, Stroman is not yet throwing. #BlueJays

Lourdes Gurriel Jr. will play a rehab game tonight in Buffalo. Yangervis Solarte has started a strengthening program and feels good. He'll be evaluated this week to see if he can begin a throwing program. #BlueJays

The best of a worst case scenario would most probably play out this way:

Here's my two cents: Extend a QO to Donaldson. If he accepts (I don't think he will, but what do I know) & is healthy, he'll provide great value & can be traded at the deadline. If he's not healthy, #BlueJays are in the same position with him as they are now. Worth the gamble imo

Should have traded him last off season, he is an injury away from gone gone gone and for those who couldn't see it coming, well that is the blind leading the blind. He had value, its not coming back and we are not going to see S__t for him.

Should have traded him last off season, he is an injury away from gone gone gone and for those who couldn't see it coming, well that is the blind leading the blind. He had value, its not coming back and we are not going to see S__t for him.

Teams can't place players on August waivers unless they're demonstrably in game shape (either on active roster or playing to full capacity in rehab games)#BlueJays can't have placed Josh Donaldson on waivers yet since he doesn't meet that requirement yet

As for Tulowitzki, the Jays announced that he will not play this year. Even though he will be out, Tulowitzki is determined to return to full health next season (2019) and vie for the competitive role of shortstop. Competitve position because of Gurriel and Diaz in competing roles.

How Kendrys Morales went from being the worst Blue Jay hitter early in the season to being the best -- and into the record books.

Morales will be donating his bat to Cooperstown. Not only did he set a club record in hitting seven home runs in seven consecutive games, he is also the seventh MLB player to have done and thus in a four-way tie in that category.

Kendrys Morales won AL player of the week. Of course he did. He has 8 home runs in seven straight games. How did the #BlueJays DH turn around his season? My piece: https://t.co/aYxXnbFSjy

Looks like Josh Donaldson's rehab stint in Dunedin is not going as well as planned. Donaldson played Tuesday but reports indicate that he had been "scratched" from the lineup due to recurring problems.

This places in jeopardy his being placed on waivesr for the required time frame. The waiver trade deadline is Friday.

Do Atkins and Shapiro even know they work for the Jays? Given a contender and the best attendance and viewership. Atkins and Shapiro raise prices, resign no one, trade no one and shop at the Dollarama.

I would love to hear your take on what Anthopoulos did to resurrect the Braves. He has been there less than a year, inherited the #1 farm system in all of baseball and made no moves (salary drop of Kemp? anything else?) prior to the start of this season.

Do Atkins and Shapiro even know they work for the Jays? Given a contender and the best attendance and viewership. Atkins and Shapiro raise prices, resign no one, trade no one and shop at the Dollarama.

Enjoy your lack of ticket sales and viewership you earned it.

They inherited a contender who had very short window of contention left. Pretty much every player that made the Jays a contender has declined drastically since the end of the 2016 season, either due to age or injury.

The top 10 position players by fWAR from the 2015 season produced 33 fWAR over the entire season, those same 10 players have produced 3.4 fWAR in 2018 for whatever team they play for now.

The top 10 position players by fWAR from the 2016 season produced 25.1 fWAR over the entire season, those same 10 players have produced 4.0 fWAR in 2018 for whatever team they play for now.

No matter who was in charge, that type of decline from your top players would be very difficult to overcome, a rebuild was always around the corner. Most publications have the Jays with a top 5 farm system and there are some interesting players with control on the MLB team right now. There is also lots of money coming off the books over the next few years.

I would love to hear your take on what Anthopoulos did to resurrect the Braves. He has been there less than a year, inherited the #1 farm system in all of baseball and made no moves (salary drop of Kemp? anything else?) prior to the start of this season.

Meanwhile people crap on guys who actually are good GM's....

Sorry.... wasn't aware that most of the Braves moves were Pre-Anthopoulolos.

I would love to hear your take on what Anthopoulos did to resurrect the Braves. He has been there less than a year, inherited the #1 farm system in all of baseball and made no moves (salary drop of Kemp? anything else?) prior to the start of this season.

Meanwhile people crap on guys who actually are good GM's....

Sorry.... wasn't aware that most of the Braves moves were Pre-Anthopoulolos.

Still think he got a raw deal from the Jays though

I also think AA got a raw deal from the Jays. The team from 2014 to 2015 had a new starter for every position player except for Joey Bats in right field. And the team AA brought together in 2015 was a legitimate championship contender.

Also, a lot of the top prospects the Jays have now are a result of moves made by AA. IMO, the only player of significance he traded away was Syndergaard.

Do Atkins and Shapiro even know they work for the Jays? Given a contender and the best attendance and viewership. Atkins and Shapiro raise prices, resign no one, trade no one and shop at the Dollarama.

Enjoy your lack of ticket sales and viewership you earned it.

They inherited a contender who had very short window of contention left. Pretty much every player that made the Jays a contender has declined drastically since the end of the 2016 season, either due to age or injury.

The top 10 position players by fWAR from the 2015 season produced 33 fWAR over the entire season, those same 10 players have produced 3.4 fWAR in 2018 for whatever team they play for now.

The top 10 position players by fWAR from the 2016 season produced 25.1 fWAR over the entire season, those same 10 players have produced 4.0 fWAR in 2018 for whatever team they play for now.

No matter who was in charge, that type of decline from your top players would be very difficult to overcome, a rebuild was always around the corner. Most publications have the Jays with a top 5 farm system and there are some interesting players with control on the MLB team right now. There is also lots of money coming off the books over the next few years.

I'm actually pretty optimistic for the future of the Jays.

Agreed 100%

Not to mention the fact that David Price alone pretty much solidified that playoff appearance and was gone the following year.

As for the farm system, AA left a few (not "a lot") top prospects, to be sure, but below them was a vast empty space of absolute nothingness.

I would love to hear your take on what Anthopoulos did to resurrect the Braves. He has been there less than a year, inherited the #1 farm system in all of baseball and made no moves (salary drop of Kemp? anything else?) prior to the start of this season.

Meanwhile people crap on guys who actually are good GM's....

Sorry.... wasn't aware that most of the Braves moves were Pre-Anthopoulolos.

Still think he got a raw deal from the Jays though

No need to apologize, that did sound a bit testy on my end, which wasn't my intention ;)

I disagree about him getting a raw deal though. He promised 3 playoff appearances in 5 years when he took over...they had 0. Then he went all-in for a tiny window of contention. We got to see some great playoff baseball briefly so hey, it wasn't a complete disaster I guess.

If Atkins and Shapiro are planning to do what Anthopoulous couldn't, build a sustainably competitive team around home grown talent, then it's pretty likely they'd have told Rogers' brass to expect a couple of fairly lean years in terms of revenues.

People can complain about that all they want but the Yankees and Dodgers have repeatedly shown us that there just isn't any avenue to winning beyond that. No amount of money spent on free agents can build as good a team as the one you build internally.

Donaldson, who is currently on rehab assignment in Dunedin (Single A ball), returned to the lineup Thursday (yesterday) after being on the sidelines the day before beset by recurring soreness problems.

Do Atkins and Shapiro even know they work for the Jays? Given a contender and the best attendance and viewership. Atkins and Shapiro raise prices, resign no one, trade no one and shop at the Dollarama.

Enjoy your lack of ticket sales and viewership you earned it.

They inherited a contender who had very short window of contention left. Pretty much every player that made the Jays a contender has declined drastically since the end of the 2016 season, either due to age or injury.

No matter who was in charge, that type of decline from your top players would be very difficult to overcome, a rebuild was always around the corner. Most publications have the Jays with a top 5 farm system and there are some interesting players with control on the MLB team right now. There is also lots of money coming off the books over the next few years.

I'm actually pretty optimistic for the future of the Jays.

They inherited an MVP, a young ERA winner, the best young closer in the game plus Stroman. I think a lot of people would agree that group is something to build around. Instead, management observed, spun their wheels and did nothing.

Do Atkins and Shapiro even know they work for the Jays? Given a contender and the best attendance and viewership. Atkins and Shapiro raise prices, resign no one, trade no one and shop at the Dollarama.

Enjoy your lack of ticket sales and viewership you earned it.

They inherited a contender who had very short window of contention left. Pretty much every player that made the Jays a contender has declined drastically since the end of the 2016 season, either due to age or injury.

No matter who was in charge, that type of decline from your top players would be very difficult to overcome, a rebuild was always around the corner. Most publications have the Jays with a top 5 farm system and there are some interesting players with control on the MLB team right now. There is also lots of money coming off the books over the next few years.

I'm actually pretty optimistic for the future of the Jays.

They inherited an MVP, a young ERA winner, the best young closer in the game plus Stroman. I think a lot of people would agree that group is something to build around. Instead, management observed, spun their wheels and did nothing.

I am tired of this argument. Personally, not a "Shatkins" fan.

What did those pieces combine to give them over the last 2 seasons? What did other key pieces from the 2015/16 team like Travis, Bautista, Estrada, Tulo, Martin etc. do in 2017/18?

While what they inherited performed well in 2015/16, they didn't provide real value in 2017/18. Management saw that they were an older team on the verge of a sharp decline so they didn't move valuable prospects to add to a declining core.

Do Atkins and Shapiro even know they work for the Jays? Given a contender and the best attendance and viewership. Atkins and Shapiro raise prices, resign no one, trade no one and shop at the Dollarama.

Enjoy your lack of ticket sales and viewership you earned it.

They inherited a contender who had very short window of contention left. Pretty much every player that made the Jays a contender has declined drastically since the end of the 2016 season, either due to age or injury.

No matter who was in charge, that type of decline from your top players would be very difficult to overcome, a rebuild was always around the corner. Most publications have the Jays with a top 5 farm system and there are some interesting players with control on the MLB team right now. There is also lots of money coming off the books over the next few years.

I'm actually pretty optimistic for the future of the Jays.

They inherited an MVP, a young ERA winner, the best young closer in the game plus Stroman. I think a lot of people would agree that group is something to build around. Instead, management observed, spun their wheels and did nothing.

I am tired of this argument. Personally, not a "Shatkins" fan.

What did those pieces combine to give them over the last 2 seasons? What did other key pieces from the 2015/16 team like Travis, Bautista, Estrada, Tulo, Martin etc. do in 2017/18?

While what they inherited performed well in 2015/16, they didn't provide real value in 2017/18. Management saw that they were an older team on the verge of a sharp decline so they didn't move valuable prospects to add to a declining core.

If you are tired of the argument, then don't post about it.

Nor did they recoup anything. Which is it, they choose to watch. Neither rebuilding or competing.

Nor did they recoup anything. Which is it, they choose to watch. Neither rebuilding or competing.

They did trade Lirano, Smith, Pearce, Happ, Oh, Axford and Loup. Reports are indicating Granderson and Donaldson both are likely moved today as well.

The probably held on to Donaldson for too long. If he was healthy this season I would imagine he would have been moved by now and I don't anyone anticipated him being injured all season.

The other vets like Bautista, Martin and Tulo had no value at the 2017 deadline or this past offseason in the case of Martin and Tulo.

Giles, Smoak and Morales (who has had a pretty good year) are candidates to move for futures between this off-season and next year's deadline. They already have a strong farm system and good payroll flexibility opening up over the next couple years.

No guarantees, but I interested to see how this goes over the next couple years.

Nor did they recoup anything. Which is it, they choose to watch. Neither rebuilding or competing.

They did trade Lirano, Smith, Pearce, Happ, Oh, Axford and Loup. Reports are indicating Granderson and Donaldson both are likely moved today as well.

The probably held on to Donaldson for too long. If he was healthy this season I would imagine he would have been moved by now and I don't anyone anticipated him being injured all season.

The other vets like Bautista, Martin and Tulo had no value at the 2017 deadline or this past offseason in the case of Martin and Tulo.

Giles, Smoak and Morales (who has had a pretty good year) are candidates to move for futures between this off-season and next year's deadline. They already have a strong farm system and good payroll flexibility opening up over the next couple years.

No guarantees, but I interested to see how this goes over the next couple years.

Yea and not only is their system a top 3 or 4 farm system in all of baseball but of the top 30, 22 are from Atkins/Shapiro.

That's pretty impressive and certainly not the result of "choosing to watch" and "not rebuilding."

I really donít want to get into a back and forth but I feel there was a chance for a reset and a second chance next season. If he plays well he has trade value, if he doesnít or canít play the season all it cost them was one season of salary.

I donít disagree with you - but it seems like optics at this point. If it comes to the same in terms of perceived value why do you take the option where it looks like youíre desperate to throw out the trash rather than maybe giving some respect to the player that resurrected the franchise.

I donít disagree with you - but it seems like optics at this point. If it comes to the same in terms of perceived value why do you take the option where it looks like youíre desperate to throw out the trash rather than maybe giving some respect to the player that resurrected the franchise.

I know, I know, thereís no real thing as loyalty in sports.

Actually what I was going to say was that maybe the way they showed Donaldson respect was in asking him whether he'd rather be kept around or if he'd like to go somewhere that he could maybe build a little free agency value by means of playing some postseason baseball.

Iím not sure Iíd give this management team that much credit, but what youíre saying makes sense.

Obviously I have no idea what conversations took place between the Jays and Donaldson but given that this is a situation where what's best for the Jays(given that, as Deebo points out, FA compensation is pretty minimal) and what's best for Donaldson line up fairly closely it seems like this was the right move regardless.

Sure, it stinks that a player as good as Donaldson who very likely could still be a good player is going to leave without much return but unless the Jays were going to make a real attempt to sign him next year(and even if, it's hard to imagine him wanting to come back outside of them offering him the most money) then this was probably inevitable.

Ideally the Jays would have traded a healthy Donaldson at the July deadline for a decent return. With that not being an option it was essentially trade him at the August deadline for next to nothing or hold onto him and extend him a qualifying offer for roughly $18 million in the off-season. Management didn't want to risk the qualifying offer because they believe he would have taken it.

Why would that have been bad? In part because it would block Vlad Jr.'s path to the majors. The Jays only need someone to plug in at 3B for a few weeks at the start of next season to avoid burning a year off Vlad Jr.'s contract. They have players on the roster currently to fill that short-term void without bringing Josh back.Another factor is all the large contracts on the books for next season in Martin, Morales and Tulo. We are already seeing the team have to get creative with Martin because Jansen is ready to be the #1 catcher. This log jam in the infield could potentially affect how quickly guys like Bichette and Biggio reach the majors.

I'm grateful for all that Josh Donaldson did for the Jays, but at the end of the day also looking forward to having the 3B position free for Vlad Jr. to step in. It sounds like things unfortunately soured at the end between Josh and the Jays, but that's likely more to do with him being one of AA's guys and Shapiro and Atkins wanting to take the team in another direction by committing to the rebuild.

Donaldson, 32, was the 2015 American League MVP and one of the most productive players over the previous five years. From 2013 through 2017, Mike Trout was the only position player with a higher cumulative fWAR than Donaldsonís 34.1.

For the Blue Jays, up until last season, he remained among their most impactful player:

In 2015 and 2016, he produced 16.1 WAR in 2015 and 2016 ó more than his world-class teammates Bautista and Encarnaciůn combined.

Donaldson had a down year in 2017 by his own standards, but an incredible one by just about anybody elseís. According to Fangraphs he was worth 5.1 WAR in just 113 games for the season ó good enough for 20th in the league among position players, even though all but four of the players ahead of him played in 145 games or more. Whatís easy to forget about Donaldsonís 2017 season, though, is that a tremendous amount of his value was produced late in the year.

I would say the player to be named later will be based upon any performance or non performance on Donaldson part. If he is MVP of the World Series we probably will reap a good pick or prospect. If he is in his non movement period due to ruptured Calf muscle then not so much in return.Welcome Vlad (next April).

I would say the player to be named later will be based upon any performance or non performance on Donaldson part. If he is MVP of the World Series we probably will reap a good pick or prospect. If he is in his non movement period due to ruptured Calf muscle then not so much in return.Welcome Vlad (next April).

It will end up being no one or a player who amounts to be no one.

Whoever (if anyone) it is will be an answer to a trivia question in a few years.

The Jays' (management) and Donaldson obviously "didn't see eye to eye" on several fronts:

It's clear that the #Bluejays and Donaldson didn't see eye-to-eye on his injury and recovery. Donaldson told the Sun that during rehab "he completely ruptured his calf" and suffered further damage elsewhere on his leg.

I would say the player to be named later will be based upon any performance or non performance on Donaldson part. If he is MVP of the World Series we probably will reap a good pick or prospect. If he is in his non movement period due to ruptured Calf muscle then not so much in return.

That's not how PTBNL deals work. The Jays and Indians will have agreed on a list of players, all of relatively equal value, and the Indians will choose one to send to the Jays later on. If Donaldson does well, the Indians aren't going to send the Jays a better grade of prospect out of the goodness of their hearts.

ďThereís more to it than the fact that the player hasnít touched the big-leagues Ė itís the years of control, the cost of that player and what that means for potential contributions and efficiency within your roster,Ē Atkins said

ďThereís more to it than the fact that the player hasnít touched the big-leagues Ė itís the years of control, the cost of that player and what that means for potential contributions and efficiency within your roster,Ē Atkins said

Come on. They arenít at fault for anything. Who would have known that a guy showing concerning wear and tear injuries and who after being traded you accuse of ignoring your medical staff all offseason wouldnít have been a better trade candidate in the offseason. I know management doesnít have to be honest with the fans but JP got run out of Toronto for lying about BJ Ryan. Results matter too but I enjoy our corporate speak management while Rogers jacks ticket prices on a losing product

I really don't understand why they didn't start tearing it down last offseason, but I don't follow the Jays moves that much. Am I wrong in this assesment? I don't understand why, when the writing is on the wall for this core, which only had a couple of years of competitive baseball in them, management didn't start getting back as much assets as possible. AA didn't seem that great in asset management either though...

ďThereís more to it than the fact that the player hasnít touched the big-leagues Ė itís the years of control, the cost of that player and what that means for potential contributions and efficiency within your roster,Ē Atkins said

I really don't understand why they didn't start tearing it down last offseason, but I don't follow the Jays moves that much. Am I wrong in this assesment? I don't understand why, when the writing is on the wall for this core, which only had a couple of years of competitive baseball in them, management didn't start getting back as much assets as possible. AA didn't seem that great in asset management either though...

I think the problem there is that the Jays had such a bad season last year there aren't a lot of guys they could have traded who they would have been seen as getting good value on. I think there's a lot of unfair hindsight going on re: Donaldson inasmuch as if they'd dealt him in the off-season people probably would have accused them of trading him at a low in his value as well. Keeping him around in the hopes that he'd have a big year in his walk year was a gamble that didn't play out, sure, but odds are the return wouldn't have been that good regardless.

Beyond that, I don't really think there's anyone they could have traded that would have yielded much more than what they ended up getting anyway.

I really don't understand why they didn't start tearing it down last offseason, but I don't follow the Jays moves that much. Am I wrong in this assesment? I don't understand why, when the writing is on the wall for this core, which only had a couple of years of competitive baseball in them, management didn't start getting back as much assets as possible. AA didn't seem that great in asset management either though...

ďThereís more to it than the fact that the player hasnít touched the big-leagues Ė itís the years of control, the cost of that player and what that means for potential contributions and efficiency within your roster,Ē Atkins said

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I think people are seriously undervaluing a) the difficulty of the situation this new management was immediately put in, and b) how good a job they have done, particularly with the farm system.

2016 had a declining, overpaid roster that no longer had Price. They bring in Happ (one of the best FA signings in a long time) who has a near Cy-Young caliber season, re-sign Estrada, move Sanchez to the rotation and then (ultimately) bolster the bullpen with Biagini, Benoit and Grili. Then they trade Hutchinson for Liriano (and 2 prospects), who immediately solidifies the 5th starting role. That team wasn't a lock to make the postseason, Shapiro/Atkins deserve their fair of credit for the team making the playoffs that year and for also acquiring prospects insetead of sending any out.

In 2017 Sanchez misses almost the entire season, Estrada explodes, Liriano explodes, JD battles injuries, Bautista turns to absolute garbage, Morales underperforms, Tulo Tulos, Travis Travis', and Pearce, on a nice cheap low risk deal doesnt pan out (mostly injuries). They turn Liriano and Smith into 4 pretty darn good pieces/prospects, and bank on a healthier/more productive year from their declining assets the following year.

In 2018 JD and Osuna are both gone for almost the entire season. Sanchez and Stroman are both either injured or pitching terribly, Estrada is, effectively, done, Tulo Tulos even further, Martin can't hit or throw anyone out and with Boston/NY being ridiculous, there goes the season. Meanwhile the trading of Granderson, Loup, Happ, JD, Pearce, Axford and Oh brings in 10 prospects. Grichuck and Diaz, acquired for songs, have above average-very good seasons and are cheap, controllable young assets. And the farm system is now ranked top 3-4 overall.

Considering they inherited a team with a terrible farm system, a boatload of money owed to aging, injury-prone vets and a rabid fanbase obsessed with the team's brief playoff run and its comically overrated former GM, I'm not sure what they could have done that would have satisfied anyone.

I really don't understand why they didn't start tearing it down last offseason, but I don't follow the Jays moves that much. Am I wrong in this assesment? I don't understand why, when the writing is on the wall for this core, which only had a couple of years of competitive baseball in them, management didn't start getting back as much assets as possible. AA didn't seem that great in asset management either though...

ďThereís more to it than the fact that the player hasnít touched the big-leagues Ė itís the years of control, the cost of that player and what that means for potential contributions and efficiency within your roster,Ē Atkins said

Sent from my SM-G965W using Tapatalk

I think people are seriously undervaluing a) the difficulty of the situation this new management was immediately put in, and b) how good a job they have done, particularly with the farm system.

2016 had a declining, overpaid roster that no longer had Price. They bring in Happ (one of the best FA signings in a long time) who has a near Cy-Young caliber season, re-sign Estrada, move Sanchez to the rotation and then (ultimately) bolster the bullpen with Biagini, Benoit and Grili. Then they trade Hutchinson for Liriano (and 2 prospects), who immediately solidifies the 5th starting role. That team wasn't a lock to make the postseason, Shapiro/Atkins deserve their fair of credit for the team making the playoffs that year and for also acquiring prospects insetead of sending any out.

In 2017 Sanchez misses almost the entire season, Estrada explodes, Liriano explodes, JD battles injuries, Bautista turns to absolute garbage, Morales underperforms, Tulo Tulos, Travis Travis', and Pearce, on a nice cheap low risk deal doesnt pan out (mostly injuries). They turn Liriano and Smith into 4 pretty darn good pieces/prospects, and bank on a healthier/more productive year from their declining assets the following year.

In 2018 JD and Osuna are both gone for almost the entire season. Sanchez and Stroman are both either injured or pitching terribly, Estrada is, effectively, done, Tulo Tulos even further, Martin can't hit or throw anyone out and with Boston/NY being ridiculous, there goes the season. Meanwhile the trading of Granderson, Loup, Happ, JD, Pearce, Axford and Oh brings in 10 prospects. Grichuck and Diaz, acquired for songs, have above average-very good seasons and are cheap, controllable young assets. And the farm system is now ranked top 3-4 overall.

Considering they inherited a team with a terrible farm system, a boatload of money owed to aging, injury-prone vets and a rabid fanbase obsessed with the team's brief playoff run and its comically overrated former GM, I'm not sure what they could have done that would have satisfied anyone.

Excellent summary, in a nutshell.

About JD, according to The Athletic, the Jays attempted to gauge interest in a possible move for him, but were dissatisfied at the insufficiency of the return value. In other words, if Donaldson had been traded in 2017 (last season) with his diminished numbers, management felt that it wouldn't have garnered high trade value.

By judging the situation to what it eventually became, perhaps many Jays fans wonder if the value would still have been higher than what they got for him now (a player to be named later), virtually nothing, statistically speaking.

Looking back, the time to trade Donaldson and the best window of opportunity was last season, not this year. Of course, who would have imagined the Jays losing two of their best -- Osuna and Donaldson -- no one forsaw this coming, not Gibbons, Shapiro nor Atkins. And may we add, not even the fans.

Besides, Donaldson had reiterated to management at the end of last season (2017) that he did not wish to be traded. Management did mention to him that there were teams expressing an interest in his services. JD wanted to remain a lifelong Blue Jay, get healthy, and be ready, able, and willing for the upcoming season (2018). Management also offered him an extension (contract talks) for the soon-to-be FA.

We can only surmise what a healthy Donaldson would have continued to have brought to the Jays. All of that is over now and the important thing is for the team to continue forward with it's young prospects.

Interesting. I didn't follow the Jays that closely so I didn't realize Donaldson had no value due to injury even back then.

Saying he had no value probably isn't accurate. He probably could have been dealt for a couple prospects. But they chose to keep him around in the hopes that he'd have a strong year and build value. It didn't work out but it's not a big deal in the grand scheme of things.

ďIs one year at whatever value Ö of Josh Donaldson more valuable than six years of Player X at Cost Y? That is an equation that anyone could do and figure out and determine which one they would rather have. And I think what lines up for us now very well is how well the acquired talent matches with a lot of our upper-level talent in our system.Ē

Atkins on the so-called contract extendion:

Quote

ďWe talked about extensions at length over the course of last offseason,Ē Atkins said. ďJosh is an incredible player and will continue to be a great player. So as we weighed our alternatives, it just came down to us feeling that this was the best alternative for us in the moment. Now as far as how he sees that, you would have to talk more to him about that.Ē

In short, Atkins said, Player X is worth more to the Jays than the draft pick they would have received had they offered him an $18-million qualifying offer when he became a free agent. It was also clear they did not wish to risk him accepting a qualifying offer.

Da rule:The current rules state that a player needs 172 days for a year of service and six full years of service before he reaches free agency. If Guerrero or Jimťnez debuted now, they would build up about 30 daysí worth of service time. By quashing any thought of a promotion now, it forces the teams to continue the empty excuses through spring training and the first two weeks of the season. By then, when a player can no longer accrue 172 days, he can be summoned for his debut, that extra free agent season secured.

Quote

ďI hate doing it,Ē said one of the many general managers who has engaged in service-time manipulation. ďBut if I didnít, I wouldnít be doing my job.Ē

He said, they said. Looks like the Jays have gotten the attention of the baseball player's union in keeping Vladdy Guerrero Jr. from being called up. Quite the contrast to the reasons Shapiro gave the other day.Here's why::

MLBPA stands up for Vladimir Guerrero Jr.: ‚ÄúThe decision to not to bring him up is a business decision, not a baseball decision. It‚Äôs bad for the #BlueJays, it‚Äôs bad for fans, it‚Äôs bad for players and it‚Äôs bad for the industry.‚ÄĚ https://t.co/ie4Kl7eohY

Da rule:The current rules state that a player needs 172 days for a year of service and six full years of service before he reaches free agency. If Guerrero or Jimťnez debuted now, they would build up about 30 daysí worth of service time. By quashing any thought of a promotion now, it forces the teams to continue the empty excuses through spring training and the first two weeks of the season. By then, when a player can no longer accrue 172 days, he can be summoned for his debut, that extra free agent season secured.

Quote

ďI hate doing it,Ē said one of the many general managers who has engaged in service-time manipulation. ďBut if I didnít, I wouldnít be doing my job.Ē

I guess Shapiro should have said "We are, just like literally every other organization would do/has done in our situation, keeping Guerrero in the minors to avoid starting his service clock and to keep an extra asset on our 40-man roster that would otherwise be gone for nothing, because the season is over and there is not one reasonable reason to bring Guerrero up right now."

I mean he could have said that but I'm not sure that's the smartest thing for him to say.

I guess Shapiro should have said "We are, just like literally every other organization would do/has done in our situation, keeping Guerrero in the minors to avoid starting his service clock and to keep an extra asset on our 40-man roster that would otherwise be gone for nothing, because the season is over and there is not one reasonable reason to bring Guerrero up right now."

I mean he could have said that but I'm not sure that's the smartest thing for him to say.

I don't for a second believe that if Shapiro had been forthright about service time concerns that the fans who look to give him crap about everything wouldn't then talk about how terrible it is that he doesn't care about giving fans buying September tickets something to cheer for.

I guess Shapiro should have said "We are, just like literally every other organization would do/has done in our situation, keeping Guerrero in the minors to avoid starting his service clock and to keep an extra asset on our 40-man roster that would otherwise be gone for nothing, because the season is over and there is not one reasonable reason to bring Guerrero up right now."

I mean he could have said that but I'm not sure that's the smartest thing for him to say.

He should say that. The Jays are not violating any rules.

So, who cares what he says? Not only do I agree with Nik about these fans still finding a way to give him crap but, regardless, the proper course of action is still being taken. I much prefer that than to having a nice, young, upstart Canadian President/GM who keeps making terrible decisions but is always up front about them.

I guess Shapiro should have said "We are, just like literally every other organization would do/has done in our situation, keeping Guerrero in the minors to avoid starting his service clock and to keep an extra asset on our 40-man roster that would otherwise be gone for nothing, because the season is over and there is not one reasonable reason to bring Guerrero up right now."

I mean he could have said that but I'm not sure that's the smartest thing for him to say.

He should say that. The Jays are not violating any rules.

So, who cares what he says? Not only do I agree with Nik about these fans still finding a way to give him crap but, regardless, the proper course of action is still being taken. I much prefer that than to having a nice, young, upstart Canadian President/GM who keeps making terrible decisions but is always up front about them.

Also, I've watched Vlad play live a few times and yes his defence is not that strong. So yes they are saving his service time but his defence isn't good either.

Another thing to consider is that with a manager who's probably on the way out and a clubhouse full of underperforming vets there's a real chance that it might not be the best environment to give a kid his first taste of the big leagues and, if that's true, it's also the sort of thing you can't really say.

Another thing to consider is that with a manager who's probably on the way out and a clubhouse full of underperforming vets there's a real chance that it might not be the best environment to give a kid his first taste of the big leagues and, if that's true, it's also the sort of thing you can't really say.

By the way, I totally agree with keeping Vlad in the minors to save a year of control. If him being up didn't burn a year of control he would be up right now. To suggest he wouldn't be up otherwise is crazy.

Another thing to consider is that with a manager who's probably on the way out and a clubhouse full of underperforming vets there's a real chance that it might not be the best environment to give a kid his first taste of the big leagues and, if that's true, it's also the sort of thing you can't really say.

This is how I feel, and I agree that it's not something you can really say.

..."Theyíve always been behind me. Theyíve been the greatest fans ever and how could I not be thankful? Itís been awesome. Hopefully, itís not my last one. But if it is here, Iím thankful for everything the fans have given me, for their support. I love it here. I love Toronto and I love the fans so Iím thankful for everything they did for me.Ē

As stated elsewhere in this thread, there could be a sticking point when the next MLB CBA agreement comes to the fore (strike?) having to do with the subject of service time (for prospect callups) or to put it simply, "contract control" by teams.

It has been reported that Vladdy Guerrero Jr., was upset about not being on the September callup list (as most baseball observers wondered why he was still in the minors when he clearly had passed that scope). The Jays Shapiro had his reasons and the MLBPA clearly did not take this kindly (as applied to teams all across the league).

As The Athletiic's in-depth article explained, baseball is indeed a convoluted sport, in fact the only sport of the major professional leagues in North America that limits, controls, or manipulate's a young prospects contract to buy back time, etc. Plenty of solutions were looked at or suggested in the article, but none perfect (the NHL model, the NFL & NBA models) to name a few. Each had it's plusses & minuses. Besides, for their own reasons given, many teams believe that the minuses outweigh the plusses.

Anyway, Vladimir Guerrero Jr. may file a grievance against the Jays organization.

Some way to begin a relationship with the parent squad, eh? And it may not stop with Guerrero, as others may take the initiative or the impetus to do same.

The greatest thing to happen to the #Stlcards was the #Bluejays‚Äô rejection of the Cards‚Äô trade proposal this winter for Josh Donaldson. They offered two players, a Jays official said, that included rookie of year candidate Jack Flaherty. The Jays turned it down.

Us fans have every right in the world to be damn pissed at Shapiro and Rogers. And quite frankly I don't give a flying **** what Nik or anyone else thinks of that. Talk to any seasons ticket holder and see. The cost of the tickets have nearly tripled over the past three years, and they have been nickle and diming the fans while putting an inferior product on the field. This is the only business I have seen that charges three times as much for a vastly inferior product. That would be like GM suddenly charging Corvette prices for the Impala. No one would buy them. And Rogers Centre is going to be a ghost town, you'll see. Largest attendance drop in the MLB last season AFAIK. This is just the beginning. Shapiro is a corporate shill, pure and plain. I can't stand the man. The fake perma smile. He's so fake. Doesn't communicate with the fans and when he does he tows the corporate line. I thought he was brought in to renovate/refurbish Rogers Centre. What happened to that? And what happened to the natural grass Beeston was working on?

You don't have to read between the tea leaves too deeply to find that the players can't stand working for this guy either. Stupid is as stupid does I guess. Rogers has no business owning a sports franchise. The lunatics are running the asylum.

And then, from Jays on the Couch, here's what Shapiro has said directly on the issue:

Quote

If it had not been a historical issue for the Blue Jays, anyone sitting in my chair would have ascertained that in the scope of things weíre looking at this is probably not realistic. Out of respect to what a focal point it has been here historically, we spent the time to understand what it would cost to retrofit a building that has no drainage, that was not meant to have grass and how we would actually install grass and keep it alive with the roof never being openÖwhat it would involve in year to year maintenanceÖ

I can tell you, when you start to get the numbers Ė you can tell by the way Iím talking about it Ė that would begin to not necessarily be a small part of a renovation, but grass would have to be one of the focal points of the entire renovation to make that happen.

For any TL:DR types out there, Beeston commissioned a study on the feasibility of natural grass, Shapiro got the study and it doesn't look particularly feasible.

This team depresses me. I have never been so disinterested in the Blue Jays then I am right now. It's hard to not feel like the fans were abandoned. We had the best viewership and attendance and what do we get, higher tickets prices and a garbage team. Trade everyone for 36 RHP prospects.

I find it really odd the difference in fan perceptions between the Leafs rebuild and the Jays rebuild. When the Leafs finally tore it down everyone breathed a sigh of relief and got on board with the tank. When the Jays have now much more pragmatically recognised that the 2015 & '16 teams were built on selling the farm system, and taken the logical conclusion they need to rebuild, there seems to be no sympathy at all.

I'm relatively optimistic... 2019, and probably 2020 will be about seeing which of the group of kids can stick at MLB. While we're probably not signing FAs and taking another run until at least 2021, there are a lot of guys on the doorstep, and there's no set date on these things, so there's room to dream.

I wonder if sometimes the lack of draft pick trading in MLB makes it hard for teams that are rebuilding to convey that message effectively (though, with development times in MLB, it probably stops teams from crucifying themselves into 10 year long shot plans).

I get not necessarily being excited by watching young players develop, but the degree of seeming anger towards the Jays front office for not being able to continue propping up the 2015/16 group perplexes me.

I find it really odd the difference in fan perceptions between the Leafs rebuild and the Jays rebuild. When the Leafs finally tore it down everyone breathed a sigh of relief and got on board with the tank. When the Jays have now much more pragmatically recognised that the 2015 & '16 teams were built on selling the farm system, and taken the logical conclusion they need to rebuild, there seems to be no sympathy at all.

I think it largely has to do with the fact that the Leafs rebuild was done with the team largely floundering and unable to make the playoffs whereas the Jays rebuild, to some, started when they were a playoff team. The problem is that 2017 season. Some people don't see it as the inevitable result of Anthopoulos investing so heavily in older players to secure the playoff runs. Some people instead see it as a result of Shapiro/Atkins taking over the team.

I find it really odd the difference in fan perceptions between the Leafs rebuild and the Jays rebuild. When the Leafs finally tore it down everyone breathed a sigh of relief and got on board with the tank. When the Jays have now much more pragmatically recognised that the 2015 & '16 teams were built on selling the farm system, and taken the logical conclusion they need to rebuild, there seems to be no sympathy at all.

I think it largely has to do with the fact that the Leafs rebuild was done with the team largely floundering and unable to make the playoffs whereas the Jays rebuild, to some, started when they were a playoff team. The problem is that 2017 season. Some people don't see it as the inevitable result of Anthopoulos investing so heavily in older players to secure the playoff runs. Some people instead see it as a result of Shapiro/Atkins taking over the team.

For me it's more that they didn't really rebuild in 2017 or 2018. They didn't make acquisitions during that time and traded off peripheral pieces but we managed to get nothing for Donaldson and Encarnacion. I think my issue with Shapiro/Atkins is they didn't go hard enough into the rebuild.

I find it really odd the difference in fan perceptions between the Leafs rebuild and the Jays rebuild. When the Leafs finally tore it down everyone breathed a sigh of relief and got on board with the tank. When the Jays have now much more pragmatically recognised that the 2015 & '16 teams were built on selling the farm system, and taken the logical conclusion they need to rebuild, there seems to be no sympathy at all.

I think it largely has to do with the fact that the Leafs rebuild was done with the team largely floundering and unable to make the playoffs whereas the Jays rebuild, to some, started when they were a playoff team. The problem is that 2017 season. Some people don't see it as the inevitable result of Anthopoulos investing so heavily in older players to secure the playoff runs. Some people instead see it as a result of Shapiro/Atkins taking over the team.

For me it's more that they didn't really rebuild in 2017 or 2018. They didn't make acquisitions during that time and traded off peripheral pieces but we managed to get nothing for Donaldson and Encarnacion. I think my issue with Shapiro/Atkins is they didn't go hard enough into the rebuild.

They didnít either rebuild or build around what they had. Became less competitive and squandered assets. This discussion has been had.

I think it largely has to do with the fact that the Leafs rebuild was done with the team largely floundering and unable to make the playoffs whereas the Jays rebuild, to some, started when they were a playoff team. The problem is that 2017 season. Some people don't see it as the inevitable result of Anthopoulos investing so heavily in older players to secure the playoff runs. Some people instead see it as a result of Shapiro/Atkins taking over the team.

I think that's part of it. Another part is also the timeline in rebuilding an NHL team in comparison to an MLB team. NHL top prospects reach the league and perform at a high level relatively quickly. Even second and third tier type guys get the NHL faster than most MLB top prospects. You can turn an NHL team around in 3-5 seasons without having to trade for significant pieces who are already established or sign them as expensive free agents. That's much harder to do with an MLB team.

For me it's more that they didn't really rebuild in 2017 or 2018. They didn't make acquisitions during that time and traded off peripheral pieces but we managed to get nothing for Donaldson and Encarnacion. I think my issue with Shapiro/Atkins is they didn't go hard enough into the rebuild.

I generally give them a bit of a mulligan on 2017. It would have been a very hard sell to the guys in the clubhouse, to say nothing of fans, to tear down a playoff team before they'd had a bad year.

I think they did rebuild last year when and where they could and while I think a fair case could be made that they should have moved some guys they didn't, they did trade guys like Happ and Pearce and Granderson and so on.

edit: Also, and I guess this is a minor point, but while I somewhat get and disagree with the Donaldson thing, I don't get EE at all. Should the Jays have traded him during the playoff run of 2016? Or should they have signed him to a deal they didn't like in the hopes of trading him later on? Because at the money he was asking for, I doubt they could get much more for him than the FA compensation draft pick.

I think that's part of it. Another part is also the timeline in rebuilding an NHL team in comparison to an MLB team. NHL top prospects reach the league and perform at a high level relatively quickly. Even second and third tier type guys get the NHL faster than most MLB top prospects. You can turn an NHL team around in 3-5 seasons without having to trade for significant pieces who are already established or sign them as expensive free agents. That's much harder to do with an MLB team.

Well, and as LK has sort of pointed to I think the rebuild is an easier sell if you can look at a top 10 or top 5 draft pick even if, like you say, they don't get to the big leagues for a while. The Jays have sort of middle grounded it although having very high draft picks is less important in a MLB rebuild than the NHL.

I find it really odd the difference in fan perceptions between the Leafs rebuild and the Jays rebuild. When the Leafs finally tore it down everyone breathed a sigh of relief and got on board with the tank. When the Jays have now much more pragmatically recognised that the 2015 & '16 teams were built on selling the farm system, and taken the logical conclusion they need to rebuild, there seems to be no sympathy at all.

I think it largely has to do with the fact that the Leafs rebuild was done with the team largely floundering and unable to make the playoffs whereas the Jays rebuild, to some, started when they were a playoff team. The problem is that 2017 season. Some people don't see it as the inevitable result of Anthopoulos investing so heavily in older players to secure the playoff runs. Some people instead see it as a result of Shapiro/Atkins taking over the team.

For me it's more that they didn't really rebuild in 2017 or 2018. They didn't make acquisitions during that time and traded off peripheral pieces but we managed to get nothing for Donaldson and Encarnacion. I think my issue with Shapiro/Atkins is they didn't go hard enough into the rebuild.

They didnít either rebuild or build around what they had. Became less competitive and squandered assets. This discussion has been had.

Well, sorry if you've had this conversation, because every time I see something like the above, I literally think of all the people who used to say "the Leafs can never rebuild". The Jays have pretty clearly been rebuilding.

They tried to hedge on Donaldson and it blew up in their face, but if Donaldson had gotten back to MVP form in St Louis, it might have accelerated the Jays rebuild, but would have been heartbreaking. If he'd gotten back to that form here, then who knows...

I find it really odd the difference in fan perceptions between the Leafs rebuild and the Jays rebuild. When the Leafs finally tore it down everyone breathed a sigh of relief and got on board with the tank. When the Jays have now much more pragmatically recognised that the 2015 & '16 teams were built on selling the farm system, and taken the logical conclusion they need to rebuild, there seems to be no sympathy at all.

I think it largely has to do with the fact that the Leafs rebuild was done with the team largely floundering and unable to make the playoffs whereas the Jays rebuild, to some, started when they were a playoff team. The problem is that 2017 season. Some people don't see it as the inevitable result of Anthopoulos investing so heavily in older players to secure the playoff runs. Some people instead see it as a result of Shapiro/Atkins taking over the team.

For me it's more that they didn't really rebuild in 2017 or 2018. They didn't make acquisitions during that time and traded off peripheral pieces but we managed to get nothing for Donaldson and Encarnacion. I think my issue with Shapiro/Atkins is they didn't go hard enough into the rebuild.

They didnít either rebuild or build around what they had. Became less competitive and squandered assets. This discussion has been had.

Well, sorry if you've had this conversation, because every time I see something like the above, I literally think of all the people who used to say "the Leafs can never rebuild". The Jays have pretty clearly been rebuilding.

They tried to hedge on Donaldson and it blew up in their face, but if Donaldson had gotten back to MVP form in St Louis, it might have accelerated the Jays rebuild, but would have been heartbreaking. If he'd gotten back to that form here, then who knows...

Did you see Donaldson's comments about the Blue Jays training staff, and also Shapiro somewhat indirectly?

We had probably the best GM in the game and then Rogers basically replaced him by hiring Shapiro to try and save money. That should tell you all you need to know as a fan. Attendance was good, the organization was profitable. Prior to Shapiro being hired the Blue Jays had a great vibe from Beeston all the way down. Shapiro has systematically gutted pretty much all of that from the organization at this point. It's hard to watch as fan. You guys can talk about the rebuild and this and that. IMO that's all nonsense. The bottom line is that the team is poorly run from the top down. Donaldson makes a good point. Why did Shapiro fire the former training staff? The same goes for the large number of Canadian employees within the organization that he has fired so he can replace them with his American cronies. This is all about power, control, and manipulation and I will not support it as a fan. Our family has cancelled our seasons tickets and we had four of them. You guys will see, that place will be a ghost town this season. All because the soul of the team has been sucked out by greedy ownership and a sleazy shill of a team president.

They didnít either rebuild or build around what they had. Became less competitive and squandered assets. This discussion has been had.

Well, sorry if you've had this conversation, because every time I see something like the above, I literally think of all the people who used to say "the Leafs can never rebuild". The Jays have pretty clearly been rebuilding.

They tried to hedge on Donaldson and it blew up in their face, but if Donaldson had gotten back to MVP form in St Louis, it might have accelerated the Jays rebuild, but would have been heartbreaking. If he'd gotten back to that form here, then who knows...

Did you see Donaldson's comments about the Blue Jays training staff, and also Shapiro somewhat indirectly?

We had probably the best GM in the game and then Rogers basically replaced him by hiring Shapiro to try and save money. That should tell you all you need to know as a fan. Attendance was good, the organization was profitable. Prior to Shapiro being hired the Blue Jays had a great vibe from Beeston all the way down. Shapiro has systematically gutted pretty much all of that from the organization at this point. It's hard to watch as fan. You guys can talk about the rebuild and this and that. IMO that's all nonsense. The bottom line is that the team is poorly run from the top down. Donaldson makes a good point. Why did Shapiro fire the former training staff? The same goes for the large number of Canadian employees within the organization that he has fired so he can replace them with his American cronies. This is all about power, control, and manipulation and I will not support it as a fan. Our family has cancelled our seasons tickets and we had four of them. You guys will see, that place will be a ghost town this season. All because the soul of the team has been sucked out by greedy ownership and a sleazy shill of a team president.

What did you think was going to happen to ďthe soul of the teamĒ?Donaldson should be focused on staying on the park, because if he canít, heís not getting another $23M deal next year.

Even if Anthropolous has stayed - and remember, he wasnít fired - he had traded all his chips for those 2 runs, and then left rather than deal with the fallout.

That your family chooses not to support the team via season tickets anymore now is a fair use of your money. As far as I can see - and feel free to demonstrate where Iím wrong, but it not Donaldson, itís not Encarnacion, and itís ceronot the training staff - the Jays are being run in a sensible manner and dealing with the necessity of re-invigorating their 40 man roster to be competitive... if that costs them the support of a certain bracket of fans, thatís only to be expected.

They didnít either rebuild or build around what they had. Became less competitive and squandered assets. This discussion has been had.

Well, sorry if you've had this conversation, because every time I see something like the above, I literally think of all the people who used to say "the Leafs can never rebuild". The Jays have pretty clearly been rebuilding.

They tried to hedge on Donaldson and it blew up in their face, but if Donaldson had gotten back to MVP form in St Louis, it might have accelerated the Jays rebuild, but would have been heartbreaking. If he'd gotten back to that form here, then who knows...

Did you see Donaldson's comments about the Blue Jays training staff, and also Shapiro somewhat indirectly?

We had probably the best GM in the game and then Rogers basically replaced him by hiring Shapiro to try and save money. That should tell you all you need to know as a fan. Attendance was good, the organization was profitable. Prior to Shapiro being hired the Blue Jays had a great vibe from Beeston all the way down. Shapiro has systematically gutted pretty much all of that from the organization at this point. It's hard to watch as fan. You guys can talk about the rebuild and this and that. IMO that's all nonsense. The bottom line is that the team is poorly run from the top down. Donaldson makes a good point. Why did Shapiro fire the former training staff? The same goes for the large number of Canadian employees within the organization that he has fired so he can replace them with his American cronies. This is all about power, control, and manipulation and I will not support it as a fan. Our family has cancelled our seasons tickets and we had four of them. You guys will see, that place will be a ghost town this season. All because the soul of the team has been sucked out by greedy ownership and a sleazy shill of a team president.

What did you think was going to happen to ďthe soul of the teamĒ?Donaldson should be focused on staying on the park, because if he canít, heís not getting another $23M deal next year.

Even if Anthropolous has stayed - and remember, he wasnít fired - he had traded all his chips for those 2 runs, and then left rather than deal with the fallout.

That your family chooses not to support the team via season tickets anymore now is a fair use of your money. As far as I can see - and feel free to demonstrate where Iím wrong, but it not Donaldson, itís not Encarnacion, and itís ceronot the training staff - the Jays are being run in a sensible manner and dealing with the necessity of re-invigorating their 40 man roster to be competitive... if that costs them the support of a certain bracket of fans, thatís only to be expected.

Agreed. It will be a ghost town because the Jays aren't the Leafs - winning changes everything. And I'm sorry to say the window for the team that AA built was a few years at most and the prospect pool was empty when he left.

JD can say what he likes but he should prove it on the field this year before blaming different staff.

They didnít either rebuild or build around what they had. Became less competitive and squandered assets. This discussion has been had.

Well, sorry if you've had this conversation, because every time I see something like the above, I literally think of all the people who used to say "the Leafs can never rebuild". The Jays have pretty clearly been rebuilding.

They tried to hedge on Donaldson and it blew up in their face, but if Donaldson had gotten back to MVP form in St Louis, it might have accelerated the Jays rebuild, but would have been heartbreaking. If he'd gotten back to that form here, then who knows...

Did you see Donaldson's comments about the Blue Jays training staff, and also Shapiro somewhat indirectly?

We had probably the best GM in the game and then Rogers basically replaced him by hiring Shapiro to try and save money. That should tell you all you need to know as a fan. Attendance was good, the organization was profitable. Prior to Shapiro being hired the Blue Jays had a great vibe from Beeston all the way down. Shapiro has systematically gutted pretty much all of that from the organization at this point. It's hard to watch as fan. You guys can talk about the rebuild and this and that. IMO that's all nonsense. The bottom line is that the team is poorly run from the top down. Donaldson makes a good point. Why did Shapiro fire the former training staff? The same goes for the large number of Canadian employees within the organization that he has fired so he can replace them with his American cronies. This is all about power, control, and manipulation and I will not support it as a fan. Our family has cancelled our seasons tickets and we had four of them. You guys will see, that place will be a ghost town this season. All because the soul of the team has been sucked out by greedy ownership and a sleazy shill of a team president.

What did you think was going to happen to ďthe soul of the teamĒ?Donaldson should be focused on staying on the park, because if he canít, heís not getting another $23M deal next year.

Even if Anthropolous has stayed - and remember, he wasnít fired - he had traded all his chips for those 2 runs, and then left rather than deal with the fallout.

That your family chooses not to support the team via season tickets anymore now is a fair use of your money. As far as I can see - and feel free to demonstrate where Iím wrong, but it not Donaldson, itís not Encarnacion, and itís ceronot the training staff - the Jays are being run in a sensible manner and dealing with the necessity of re-invigorating their 40 man roster to be competitive... if that costs them the support of a certain bracket of fans, thatís only to be expected.

Agreed. It will be a ghost town because the Jays aren't the Leafs - winning changes everything. And I'm sorry to say the window for the team that AA built was a few years at most and the prospect pool was empty when he left.

JD can say what he likes but he should prove it on the field this year before blaming different staff.

I call BS they had 3 top prospects in Osuana, Sanchez, and Stroman on their roster. They were in a great place and Shapiro neither added the right pieces or recouped anything. Worst rebuild ever. Total buzz kill from day one and complete inept job done to date. A complete PR disaster to boot.

I call BS they had 3 top prospects in Osuana, Sanchez, and Stroman on their roster.

Like you say, those three guys were already on the roster. And none of them turned out to be good enough players, at least not yet, to justify building a team around(to say nothing about their character).

But behind them, the actual group of prospects they had were nowhere near good enough to be the backbone of a real contender. That's not a great place for going forward by any measure.

They didnít either rebuild or build around what they had. Became less competitive and squandered assets. This discussion has been had.

Well, sorry if you've had this conversation, because every time I see something like the above, I literally think of all the people who used to say "the Leafs can never rebuild". The Jays have pretty clearly been rebuilding.

They tried to hedge on Donaldson and it blew up in their face, but if Donaldson had gotten back to MVP form in St Louis, it might have accelerated the Jays rebuild, but would have been heartbreaking. If he'd gotten back to that form here, then who knows...

Did you see Donaldson's comments about the Blue Jays training staff, and also Shapiro somewhat indirectly?

We had probably the best GM in the game and then Rogers basically replaced him by hiring Shapiro to try and save money. That should tell you all you need to know as a fan. Attendance was good, the organization was profitable. Prior to Shapiro being hired the Blue Jays had a great vibe from Beeston all the way down. Shapiro has systematically gutted pretty much all of that from the organization at this point. It's hard to watch as fan. You guys can talk about the rebuild and this and that. IMO that's all nonsense. The bottom line is that the team is poorly run from the top down. Donaldson makes a good point. Why did Shapiro fire the former training staff? The same goes for the large number of Canadian employees within the organization that he has fired so he can replace them with his American cronies. This is all about power, control, and manipulation and I will not support it as a fan. Our family has cancelled our seasons tickets and we had four of them. You guys will see, that place will be a ghost town this season. All because the soul of the team has been sucked out by greedy ownership and a sleazy shill of a team president.

What did you think was going to happen to ďthe soul of the teamĒ?Donaldson should be focused on staying on the park, because if he canít, heís not getting another $23M deal next year.

Even if Anthropolous has stayed - and remember, he wasnít fired - he had traded all his chips for those 2 runs, and then left rather than deal with the fallout.

That your family chooses not to support the team via season tickets anymore now is a fair use of your money. As far as I can see - and feel free to demonstrate where Iím wrong, but it not Donaldson, itís not Encarnacion, and itís ceronot the training staff - the Jays are being run in a sensible manner and dealing with the necessity of re-invigorating their 40 man roster to be competitive... if that costs them the support of a certain bracket of fans, thatís only to be expected.

Agreed. It will be a ghost town because the Jays aren't the Leafs - winning changes everything. And I'm sorry to say the window for the team that AA built was a few years at most and the prospect pool was empty when he left.

JD can say what he likes but he should prove it on the field this year before blaming different staff.

I call BS they had 3 top prospects in Osuana, Sanchez, and Stroman on their roster. They were in a great place and Shapiro neither added the right pieces or recouped anything. Worst rebuild ever. Total buzz kill from day one and complete inept job done to date. A complete PR disaster to boot.

You call BS and all I have to do is call Syndergaard. I'll have to do more research to add more to the conversation but that's how I recall things playing out - we doubled down on a roster with a small window.

Everyone is angry at Shapiro for having to clean up AA's mess and for the team not being very good once he bailed when he realized the writing was on the wall. Like many other people that are revered by others, he wasn't around long enough to fail. If AA were here now he'd be just as loathed as Shapiro because, like I said, winning changes everything and they haven't been winning.

They didnít either rebuild or build around what they had. Became less competitive and squandered assets. This discussion has been had.

Well, sorry if you've had this conversation, because every time I see something like the above, I literally think of all the people who used to say "the Leafs can never rebuild". The Jays have pretty clearly been rebuilding.

They tried to hedge on Donaldson and it blew up in their face, but if Donaldson had gotten back to MVP form in St Louis, it might have accelerated the Jays rebuild, but would have been heartbreaking. If he'd gotten back to that form here, then who knows...

Did you see Donaldson's comments about the Blue Jays training staff, and also Shapiro somewhat indirectly?

We had probably the best GM in the game and then Rogers basically replaced him by hiring Shapiro to try and save money. That should tell you all you need to know as a fan. Attendance was good, the organization was profitable. Prior to Shapiro being hired the Blue Jays had a great vibe from Beeston all the way down. Shapiro has systematically gutted pretty much all of that from the organization at this point. It's hard to watch as fan. You guys can talk about the rebuild and this and that. IMO that's all nonsense. The bottom line is that the team is poorly run from the top down. Donaldson makes a good point. Why did Shapiro fire the former training staff? The same goes for the large number of Canadian employees within the organization that he has fired so he can replace them with his American cronies. This is all about power, control, and manipulation and I will not support it as a fan. Our family has cancelled our seasons tickets and we had four of them. You guys will see, that place will be a ghost town this season. All because the soul of the team has been sucked out by greedy ownership and a sleazy shill of a team president.

What did you think was going to happen to ďthe soul of the teamĒ?Donaldson should be focused on staying on the park, because if he canít, heís not getting another $23M deal next year.

Even if Anthropolous has stayed - and remember, he wasnít fired - he had traded all his chips for those 2 runs, and then left rather than deal with the fallout.

That your family chooses not to support the team via season tickets anymore now is a fair use of your money. As far as I can see - and feel free to demonstrate where Iím wrong, but it not Donaldson, itís not Encarnacion, and itís ceronot the training staff - the Jays are being run in a sensible manner and dealing with the necessity of re-invigorating their 40 man roster to be competitive... if that costs them the support of a certain bracket of fans, thatís only to be expected.

Agreed. It will be a ghost town because the Jays aren't the Leafs - winning changes everything. And I'm sorry to say the window for the team that AA built was a few years at most and the prospect pool was empty when he left.

JD can say what he likes but he should prove it on the field this year before blaming different staff.

I call BS they had 3 top prospects in Osuana, Sanchez, and Stroman on their roster. They were in a great place and Shapiro neither added the right pieces or recouped anything. Worst rebuild ever. Total buzz kill from day one and complete inept job done to date. A complete PR disaster to boot.

You call BS and all I have to do is call Syndergaard. I'll have to do more research to add more to the conversation but that's how I recall things playing out - we doubled down on a roster with a small window.

Everyone is angry at Shapiro for having to clean up AA's mess and for the team not being very good once he bailed when he realized the writing was on the wall. Like many other people that are revered by others, he wasn't around long enough to fail. If AA were here now he'd be just as loathed as Shapiro because, like I said, winning changes everything and they haven't been winning.

Imagine how much better it could have been if he actually committed to the rebuild instead of spinning his tires.

It's ranked as the 5th best in baseball so the answer is that it couldn't have been that much better.

Practically either. Trading Donaldson and...I don't know, Smoak I guess, would have added a couple pieces to the farm system, not drastically changed things. They moved pieces, added others. The real problem with the farm system not being as good as it could be aren't the one or two guys Shapiro could maybe have moved to get one or two extra pieces, it's the litany of older players with bad contracts the Jays have that they can't really move on from that they can't turn into extra pieces. Imagine if instead of Tulowitzki or Martin the Jays had valuable guys who could be leveraged into other prospects.

Either way, not being able to acknowledge that Shapiro/Atkins have rebuilt through the farm system and have done a good job of it kind of indicates that this isn't really being looked at fairly by people who just want to criticize them for being left holding the bag from AA's lousy deals.

I don't get EE at all. Should the Jays have traded him during the playoff run of 2016? Or should they have signed him to a deal they didn't like in the hopes of trading him later on? Because at the money he was asking for, I doubt they could get much more for him than the FA compensation draft pick.

By the way, just look how under just the tiniest bit of scrutiny and a serious look at what Shapiro/Atkins have actually done the thread goes from "They haven't rebuilt" to "Yeah, but if they'd done a few things differently the rebuild could be better".

I get people are bitter how after years of no playoffs the competitive window as only a couple of years before another building process was needed but that's the issue with trying to build a team on older players rather than with young, homegrown talent. If what Shapiro/Atkins do here is build the Jays into what they built the Indians into, then the next window of competitiveness will be larger and Rogers has proven that they're willing to spend at a level that can keep a team like that together.

They didnít either rebuild or build around what they had. Became less competitive and squandered assets. This discussion has been had.

Well, sorry if you've had this conversation, because every time I see something like the above, I literally think of all the people who used to say "the Leafs can never rebuild". The Jays have pretty clearly been rebuilding.

They tried to hedge on Donaldson and it blew up in their face, but if Donaldson had gotten back to MVP form in St Louis, it might have accelerated the Jays rebuild, but would have been heartbreaking. If he'd gotten back to that form here, then who knows...

Did you see Donaldson's comments about the Blue Jays training staff, and also Shapiro somewhat indirectly?

We had probably the best GM in the game and then Rogers basically replaced him by hiring Shapiro to try and save money. That should tell you all you need to know as a fan. Attendance was good, the organization was profitable. Prior to Shapiro being hired the Blue Jays had a great vibe from Beeston all the way down. Shapiro has systematically gutted pretty much all of that from the organization at this point. It's hard to watch as fan. You guys can talk about the rebuild and this and that. IMO that's all nonsense. The bottom line is that the team is poorly run from the top down. Donaldson makes a good point. Why did Shapiro fire the former training staff? The same goes for the large number of Canadian employees within the organization that he has fired so he can replace them with his American cronies. This is all about power, control, and manipulation and I will not support it as a fan. Our family has cancelled our seasons tickets and we had four of them. You guys will see, that place will be a ghost town this season. All because the soul of the team has been sucked out by greedy ownership and a sleazy shill of a team president.

What did you think was going to happen to ďthe soul of the teamĒ?Donaldson should be focused on staying on the park, because if he canít, heís not getting another $23M deal next year.

Even if Anthropolous has stayed - and remember, he wasnít fired - he had traded all his chips for those 2 runs, and then left rather than deal with the fallout.

That your family chooses not to support the team via season tickets anymore now is a fair use of your money. As far as I can see - and feel free to demonstrate where Iím wrong, but it not Donaldson, itís not Encarnacion, and itís ceronot the training staff - the Jays are being run in a sensible manner and dealing with the necessity of re-invigorating their 40 man roster to be competitive... if that costs them the support of a certain bracket of fans, thatís only to be expected.

Agreed. It will be a ghost town because the Jays aren't the Leafs - winning changes everything. And I'm sorry to say the window for the team that AA built was a few years at most and the prospect pool was empty when he left.

JD can say what he likes but he should prove it on the field this year before blaming different staff.

I call BS they had 3 top prospects in Osuana, Sanchez, and Stroman on their roster. They were in a great place and Shapiro neither added the right pieces or recouped anything. Worst rebuild ever. Total buzz kill from day one and complete inept job done to date. A complete PR disaster to boot.

You call BS and all I have to do is call Syndergaard. I'll have to do more research to add more to the conversation but that's how I recall things playing out - we doubled down on a roster with a small window.

Everyone is angry at Shapiro for having to clean up AA's mess and for the team not being very good once he bailed when he realized the writing was on the wall. Like many other people that are revered by others, he wasn't around long enough to fail. If AA were here now he'd be just as loathed as Shapiro because, like I said, winning changes everything and they haven't been winning.

Yep Shapiro been great... we're definitely on track...

Thatís the thing. And Shapiro basically admitted that they should have started the rebuild earlier but there were external factors. The team is poorly run, letís face it. I can name at least five major assets that they mismanaged. Excellent assets that they could have parlayed into very nice prospects that would have put us into a position similar to the Houston Astros. Now weíre stuck with a handful of very good to elite prospects. I donít think it will be enough. Not against the Yankees and the Red Sox. I donít see the endgame here. Thatís the sad part. At least when the Leafs tanked they did it right and we had hope. Iím really down about the Jays and Iím a really huge fan. It was pretty upsetting for us to sell the season tickets. We did not take the decision lightly.

Whatever the process is, it isn't over. They can still move Smoak and other players this year. They're going to have the 11th pick in the draft next year and probably another high pick the year after. They can sign mid-tier UFAs and move them as well.

And, again, they still have one of the best farm systems in baseball with maybe the single best prospect in baseball. That is not a bad outcome of a rebuild.

Whatever the process is, it isn't over. They can still move Smoak and other players this year. They're going to have the 11th pick in the draft next year and probably another high pick the year after. They can sign mid-tier UFAs and move them as well.

And, again, they still have one of the best farm systems in baseball with maybe the single best prospect in baseball. That is not a bad outcome of a rebuild.

True, it's not bad, but it could have been *so* much better. Look at it this way, until recently the Yankees had an equivalent or better farm system, they went to the playoffs, *and* they have endless cash and an ownership that wants to win. That's what the Jays are up against. And it doesn't even take the Red Sox into consideration. The Jays only chance at contention is a stacked farm system that they can parlay into elite rentals like what AA did.

Also for all I know the Yankees could still have a farm system that's just as good as the Blue Jays. They have been slowly emptying the cupboard and I don't know where they are at currently.

True, it's not bad, but it could have been *so* much better. Look at it this way, until recently the Yankees had an equivalent or better farm system, they went to the playoffs, *and* they have endless cash and an ownership that wants to win. That's what the Jays are up against. And it doesn't even take the Red Sox into consideration. The Jays only chance at contention is a stacked farm system that they can parlay into elite rentals like what AA did.

Also for all I know the Yankees could still have a farm system that's just as good as the Blue Jays. They have been slowly emptying the cupboard and I don't know where they are at currently.

That midseason ranking had the Yankees at #10 overall but they've since traded away their top prospect in the James Paxton deal so odds are they're quite a bit lower.

I feel pretty confident that the best way for the Jays to compete is to actually use the farm system to get good players and then supplement those players with free agency and trades when it's appropriate. Not only do I think it will result in better teams than AA ever put together, they'll be competitive longer. The Jays won't ever be the Yankees when it comes to player acquisition but they're not the Rays either. When they need to, Rogers has proven they can spend akin to a mid-tier team which the Jays more or less are.

As to whether or not it could have been better than it currently is, outside of the Donaldson situation I don't see that as being true and as I've discussed on here before, I think they can be forgiven for hoping that Donaldson would bounce back this year and make himself a valuable deadline piece. He didn't, which sucks, but I'm not going to let that colour the fact that they've done a very good job rebuilding the farm system. Past that, I don't think there are any situations where they could have done a lot better than they did.

True, it's not bad, but it could have been *so* much better. Look at it this way, until recently the Yankees had an equivalent or better farm system, they went to the playoffs, *and* they have endless cash and an ownership that wants to win. That's what the Jays are up against. And it doesn't even take the Red Sox into consideration. The Jays only chance at contention is a stacked farm system that they can parlay into elite rentals like what AA did.

Also for all I know the Yankees could still have a farm system that's just as good as the Blue Jays. They have been slowly emptying the cupboard and I don't know where they are at currently.

That midseason ranking had the Yankees at #10 overall but they've since traded away their top prospect in the James Paxton deal so odds are they're quite a bit lower.

I feel pretty confident that the best way for the Jays to compete is to actually use the farm system to get good players and then supplement those players with free agency and trades when it's appropriate. Not only do I think it will result in better teams than AA ever put together, they'll be competitive longer. The Jays won't ever be the Yankees when it comes to player acquisition but they're not the Rays either. When they need to, Rogers has proven they can spend akin to a mid-tier team which the Jays more or less are.

As to whether or not it could have been better than it currently is, outside of the Donaldson situation I don't see that as being true and as I've discussed on here before, I think they can be forgiven for hoping that Donaldson would bounce back this year and make himself a valuable deadline piece. He didn't, which sucks, but I'm not going to let that colour the fact that they've done a very good job rebuilding the farm system. Past that, I don't think there are any situations where they could have done a lot better than they did.

The whole thing with Donaldson was shortsighted. They were offered the eventual rookie of the year pitcher for him. They should have taken it. Anyone in their right mind would have.

Then there is Bautista, a franchise icon, who was unceremoniously shown the door when they could have had him for under a million last season. He should have been made a coach IMO. Some kind of role within the organization.

The whole Edwin negotiation was botched completely and really I think he had more value to the club than people realize. Super great clubhouse guy. My family got to meet him as seasons ticket holders. Super nice guy with a great sense of humor.

There were other moves also. I just think if they had gone with a scorched earth rebuild a year or two ago they would have gotten full value for a number of assets that they wound up getting little to nothing for.

In my own way I respect Shapiro as a penny pinching scrooge but I don't think he suits the Jays market or what they need. When they got him I thought he might do great with a higher payroll than he had in Cleveland but so far all I have seen him do is slash and burn and make some boneheaded moves also.

The thing is also, and this is my own bias coming into play, I really liked AA. Moreso than any Blue Jays GM I can remember since the glory days when they made the playoffs. There was something about the way he conveyed himself and interacted with the players. Shapiro seems fake and untrustworthy in comparison. AA was warm, personable, enthusiastic, and most importantly, Canadian. Worked his way to the top from the very bottom of the organization. That's the kind of culture I would want within the team. Not this slash and burn, fire everyone and replace them with people from Cleveland. What message does that send the staff? What motivation do they have to do their best or work hard if they don't have a realistic chance of moving up?

Anyhow this is flogging a dead horse, as usual. We are going to have to agree to disagree. Shapiro is one of the biggest idiots I have ever seen. If you see it differently, good for you.

The whole thing with Donaldson was shortsighted. They were offered the eventual rookie of the year pitcher for him. They should have taken it. Anyone in their right mind would have.

This is not true. They weren't offered the eventual rookie of the year. The player they were offered for him, Jack Flaherty, eventually finished 5th in rookie of the year voting by virtue of getting a couple of fifth place votes. .

Should they have taken the deal? Obviously with hindsight, yes. Is it a catastrophe? No. Was it unreasonable to bet on him to have a good walk year? No.

Then there is Bautista, a franchise icon, who was unceremoniously shown the door when they could have had him for under a million last season. He should have been made a coach IMO. Some kind of role within the organization.

He was done as a player, his year proved that, but he still wanted to play. Part of rebuilding is giving at-bats to younger players and Hernandez and Grichuk were here for that very reason. If Bautista wants to move into coaching, that's one thing but big league coaching jobs shouldn't be legacy roles. He should earn it with coaching at lower levels.

The whole Edwin negotiation was botched completely and really I think he had more value to the club than people realize. Super great clubhouse guy. My family got to meet him as seasons ticket holders. Super nice guy with a great sense of humor.

I'm sure Edwin is a lovely fellow. That said, I don't think the deal he wanted to sign made sense and I don't think trading him during the 2016 season made sense either. They got a comp pick for him, they used it smartly on Pearson who is now a very good prospect. I don't think that counts as completely botching the situation.

In my own way I respect Shapiro as a penny pinching scrooge but I don't think he suits the Jays market or what they need. When they got him I thought he might do great with a higher payroll than he had in Cleveland but so far all I have seen him do is slash and burn and make some boneheaded moves also.

And build one of the better farm systems in baseball. I will take a carpet bagger who will build the team and not sacrifice things for short term gains.

Just wanted to say this, It was Encarnacion's camp that botched the negotiations, not the Jays. Seems the Jays were pretty spot on.

I just wish people were more realistic about what actually happened there. Edwin got paid and good for him but he got 60 million over three years and has put up seasons of 2.9 and 1.9 BWAR. Morales has been terrible, sure, but the difference is between being a 76 and a 79 win team one year and a 73 and 75 win team the next.

Having Edwin around would have been nice as he'll probably hit his 400th HR next year and that would have been a nice moment for the fans but by letting him walk the Jays got the pick and could develop Pearson rather than hoping that he maybe has a good enough year this year to get a good return.

It was a bloodless move, sure, but probably the right one for a rebuilding team.

Justin Smoak with his .250 batting average was just unanimously chosen as the Blue Jays best player of 2018. That kind of says it all. Pretty damning of the current team leadership IMO. The second best player was Grichuk.

Vladimir Guerrero Jr. is not going to be the saviour for this team. Not even close. The team would need at least 5 players like him to get them even remotely close to where they need to be.

The Blue Jays are currently a complete mess. I'm not even going to watch the games for the foreseeable future.

Justin Smoak with his .250 batting average was just unanimously chosen as the Blue Jays best player of 2018. That kind of says it all. Pretty damning of the current team leadership IMO. The second best player was Grichuk.

Vladimir Guerrero Jr. is not going to be the saviour for this team. Not even close. The team would need at least 5 players like him to get them even remotely close to where they need to be.

The Blue Jays are currently a complete mess. I'm not even going to watch the games for the foreseeable future.

There haven't been 5 players rated as high as him across the league in 20 years.

First it was that they hadn't committed enough to the rebuild, now it's that they don't have enough good players on the big league club? It can't really be both.

Like I said before, the rebuilding isn't over. They picked Groshans last year. They have the 11th pick coming up. They'll probably have at least another year of drafting fairly high. Guerrero is just the biggest prospect in a very good system that's going to get better.

Justin Smoak with his .250 batting average was just unanimously chosen as the Blue Jays best player of 2018. That kind of says it all. Pretty damning of the current team leadership IMO. The second best player was Grichuk.

Smoak put up an .808 OPS with little protection while being a finalist for a gold glove, so I donít think his being #1 Jay is the damning indictment you are making out.

The team won 73 games in 2018, theyíre obviously more than a single player away.

First it was that they hadn't committed enough to the rebuild, now it's that they don't have enough good players on the big league club? It can't really be both.

Like I said before, the rebuilding isn't over. They picked Groshans last year. They have the 11th pick coming up. They'll probably have at least another year of drafting fairly high. Guerrero is just the biggest prospect in a very good system that's going to get better.

Smoak is just another example. He should have been traded. Why keep him? Vladdy Jr. is projected to be more of a 1B anyways. And Smoak has value. I would say he had more value last season at the deadline.

And yes, that is the problem. They tanked halfway. Not even halfway. A mini tank. They basically had thoughts of competing and then panicked when that didn't work out.

Justin Smoak with his .250 batting average was just unanimously chosen as the Blue Jays best player of 2018. That kind of says it all. Pretty damning of the current team leadership IMO. The second best player was Grichuk.

Vladimir Guerrero Jr. is not going to be the saviour for this team. Not even close. The team would need at least 5 players like him to get them even remotely close to where they need to be.

The Blue Jays are currently a complete mess. I'm not even going to watch the games for the foreseeable future.

There haven't been 5 players rated as high as him across the league in 20 years.

They also have Bichette and Jansen.

How much do you actually know about the farm system?

Enough to know that even if a bunch of those guys pan out they still won't be where they need to be.

The Yankees with their endless cash just had a farm system like that and good players on their roster also and they still didn't win it all.

The MLB as currently constructed is pay to win. Rogers and Shapiro are too cheap to ever win in this market IMO. They say they will raise payroll but it will never be enough to win it all IMO.

Justin Smoak with his .250 batting average was just unanimously chosen as the Blue Jays best player of 2018. That kind of says it all. Pretty damning of the current team leadership IMO. The second best player was Grichuk.

Smoak put up an .808 OPS with little protection while being a finalist for a gold glove, so I donít think his being #1 Jay is the damning indictment you are making out.

The team won 73 games in 2018, theyíre obviously more than a single player away.

I'd be interested to see a team with a worse best player on their roster. I'd venture to guess there aren't too many.

Smoak is just another example. He should have been traded. Why keep him? Vladdy Jr. is projected to be more of a 1B anyways. And Smoak has value. I would say he had more value last season at the deadline.

More value than when? Now? Or next year's deadline? How could you possibly know that?

If Guerrero is ready to be a full time 1B when he gets called up, as opposed to DHing, they can trade Smoak then. Until then, they need warm bodies. Smoak isn't a huge difference maker and the return on him isn't going to be huge but it's not a big deal either way.

That said it is at least a little funny that you're lamenting the lack of good young players on the Blue Jays right now while not recognizing that it's precisely that lack of good young players which is why a rebuild was needed. If AA had done a decent job of drafting and developing players, there'd be better players on the Blue Jays than Smoak. Because he didn't, the Jays have to grow their own. You may not like it but that takes time.

Smoak is just another example. He should have been traded. Why keep him? Vladdy Jr. is projected to be more of a 1B anyways. And Smoak has value. I would say he had more value last season at the deadline.

More value than when? Now? Or next year's deadline? How could you possibly know that?

If Guerrero is ready to be a full time 1B when he gets called up, as opposed to DHing, they can trade Smoak then. Until then, they need warm bodies. Smoak isn't a huge difference maker and the return on him isn't going to be huge but it's not a big deal either way.

That said it is at least a little funny that you're lamenting the lack of good young players on the Blue Jays right now while not recognizing that it's precisely that lack of good young players which is why a rebuild was needed. If AA had done a decent job of drafting and developing players, there'd be better players on the Blue Jays than Smoak. Because he didn't, the Jays have to grow their own. You may not like it but that takes time.

I would have traded Smoak at the first decent offer. I'm sure he would have been of value to someone out there at some point.

I thought AA did fine with prospects. Wasn't Vladdy Jr. his doing? Didn't he send Edwin down there to recruit him?

Syndergaard was another good one. Trading him for Dickey was AA's one true bonehead move.

Stroman, Sanchez, plus others. The list goes on. AA built up enough prospect capital to almost win it all in this market. And pretty much all the pieces he traded away didn't pan out.

AA was a wily and creative thinker. I quite like him. It will be interesting to follow Atlanta now.

And on and on. From 2010 until he left the team, Stroman is the only the first round pick that made even the slightest impact on the team, including the multiple picks they blew on guys they couldn't even sign. Frankly, his record sucks.

Syndergaard was another good one. Trading him for Dickey was AA's one true bonehead move.

Well, he also got nothing of significance back in the Halladay trade, got nothing worthwhile in the big Marlins trade, gave away Mike Napoli for nothing and saddled the Jays with the Tulowitzki contract but yeah, just the one boneheaded move.

And on and on. From 2010 until he left the team, Stroman is the only the first round pick that made even the slightest impact on the team, including the multiple picks they blew on guys they couldn't even sign. Frankly, his record sucks.

Syndergaard was another good one. Trading him for Dickey was AA's one true bonehead move.

Well, he also got nothing of significance back in the Halladay trade, got nothing worthwhile in the big Marlins trade, gave away Mike Napoli for nothing and saddled the Jays with the Tulowitzki contract but yeah, just the one boneheaded move.

Did you even follow the team in 2015? The Tulo trade turned the team around. Jose Reyes is an idiot. You seem to gravitate toward and admire these idiot types. I can't stand them.

Really? What turned the team around was the Shortstop who slashed .239/.318/.380? Not, say, David Price?

or the bullpen addtions of Osuna, Sanchez and Lowe and eventually Stroman returning to the rotation.

I like AA and thought 2015 was absolutley the right time to go for it. He sold high on some mediocre prospects in the Donaldson and Price deals and put together a team that had a real shot to win a championship, but that group was always headed for a steep decline no matter who was in charge.

I like AA and thought 2015 was absolutley the right time to go for it. He sold high on some mediocre prospects in the Donaldson and Price deals and put together a team that had a real shot to win a championship, but that group was always headed for a steep decline no matter who was in charge.

I don't really disagree with this. He took his shot and got the Jays pretty close to the World Series. Good job by him.

The problem I have with it in the larger sense is that I still think the Jays would have been better off post-Halladay if they'd committed to building themselves through prospects and homegrown talent. It's why the "All of the prospects he traded for Price/Tulo/Donaldson ended up sucking anyway" doesn't really work for me. That's sort of an indictment on his ability to identify young talent.

As is though, as IJLH said, what he did necessitated a rebuild. Rogers wanted him to stick around for it but he bailed and left others to deal with his mess. To lionize him for that...I don't get it.

I like AA and thought 2015 was absolutley the right time to go for it. He sold high on some mediocre prospects in the Donaldson and Price deals and put together a team that had a real shot to win a championship, but that group was always headed for a steep decline no matter who was in charge.

I don't really disagree with this. He took his shot and got the Jays pretty close to the World Series. Good job by him.

The problem I have with it in the larger sense is that I still think the Jays would have been better off post-Halladay if they'd committed to building themselves through prospects and homegrown talent. It's why the "All of the prospects he traded for Price/Tulo/Donaldson ended up sucking anyway" doesn't really work for me. That's sort of an indictment on his ability to identify young talent.

As is though, as IJLH said, what he did necessitated a rebuild. Rogers wanted him to stick around for it but he bailed and left others to deal with his mess. To lionize him for that...I don't get it.

It's because, well, didn't AA win MLB executive of the year that year? When they fired Beeston I thought for sure they would promote AA to team president.

I think there was a real human factor to this whole thing. I can relate to AA in many ways and I will tell you that from what I have seen from Shapiro, he seems extremely "fake" and not very genuine. AA probably saw right through this and was not comfortable working with him. That is my take anyway. AA was always extremely professional about this and never said why he really left. I believe him when he says he had his reasons.

That is the whole thing, Nik. I think you tend to look at things more analytically whereas I tend to gravitate toward the human factor. The interpersonal side. Team players. Team chemistry. That kind of thing. Whereas you worry about batting average or in the case of hockey goals and assists and all that. I don't have a problem with it, it's just I think that in a nutshell is largely why we see things so differently. You're probably not picking up on the personal details I'm noticing on all these players and such, and I'm not detail oriented enough to care about the stats that you seem to spend hours looking at.

You're probably not picking up on the personal details I'm noticing on all these players and such, and I'm not detail oriented enough to care about the stats that you seem to spend hours looking at.

It's not that I'm somehow unaware of things beyond numbers, I just have different interpretations of these details than you do and I try not to let my biases cloud my perception of facts and objective truth. You seem to like to take hard opinions on things that you or I have no way of knowing. Team chemistry being a perfect example. It's not that I don't think it exists or is a consideration, I'm just not going to yell about it because we're all getting 2nd and 3rd information and there's millions of ways to interpret that information. The sorts of thing you're referring to...psychology or organizational theory or whatever...it's not that I don't think they're real, I just know they were in the Social Sciences building, not the Science building.

(and FWIW, having a working knowledge of stats requires much, much less effort than you think it does. I'm not a math guy, my education was in Social Sciences. I just can use Baseball-Reference and HockeyDb)

In a way, the ticket price thing is a perfect metaphor here. For most of the stadium, they had a fairly modest price increase. 25% or so. But for one area of the stadium, where you apparently had your tickets, it was much larger. You're free to be as unhappy as you like with that price increase but it's worthwhile to note that things would look different from another part of the ballpark.

I like AA and thought 2015 was absolutley the right time to go for it. He sold high on some mediocre prospects in the Donaldson and Price deals and put together a team that had a real shot to win a championship, but that group was always headed for a steep decline no matter who was in charge.

I don't really disagree with this. He took his shot and got the Jays pretty close to the World Series. Good job by him.

The problem I have with it in the larger sense is that I still think the Jays would have been better off post-Halladay if they'd committed to building themselves through prospects and homegrown talent. It's why the "All of the prospects he traded for Price/Tulo/Donaldson ended up sucking anyway" doesn't really work for me. That's sort of an indictment on his ability to identify young talent.

As is though, as IJLH said, what he did necessitated a rebuild. Rogers wanted him to stick around for it but he bailed and left others to deal with his mess. To lionize him for that...I don't get it.

Just to reiterate what you said here, and to just speak to the point: I don't think anyone thinks the Jays were far off from winning it in '15, and I don't think people can fault him for trying to win it. But I remember thinking at the time that he was really going all in on players that had a short window, and maybe that wasn't the most prudent thing to do. It's not a shocker to me the team wasn't good after a couple of runs in the post season and now that they've got to rebuild all the heat is on Shapiro for having to pick up the pieces rather than AA conveniently leaving, which seemed very odd at the time. If he felt the team had another viable shot at the championship why leave? He knew he played his hand and lost and didn't want to be taking heat for having to rebuild after he dealt a large number of our younger talent.

Just to reiterate what you said here, and to just speak to the point: I don't think anyone thinks the Jays were far off from winning it in '15, and I don't think people can fault him for trying to win it. But I remember thinking at the time that he was really going all in on players that had a short window, and maybe that wasn't the most prudent thing to do. It's not a shocker to me the team wasn't good after a couple of runs in the post season and now that they've got to rebuild all the heat is on Shapiro for having to pick up the pieces rather than AA conveniently leaving, which seemed very odd at the time. If he felt the team had another viable shot at the championship why leave? He knew he played his hand and lost and didn't want to be taking heat for having to rebuild after he dealt a large number of our younger talent.

There are a couple of ways of looking at AA leaving. If we wanted to be charitable I think it might be fair to say that AA, who had some professional clout, maybe didn't want to put more years of his career into a rebuild with a high degree of difficulty given the natural problems within the division. Maybe he also really didn't want to share any authority. Whatever. I don't begrudge the guy doing what he thought was best for himself.

But the end of it is that he was offered a deal to stay, he turned it down. He landed in a good job for him. The Braves had already built up their prospect base and AA can turn that into some win now stuff.

The thing about this argument is that it's not a two-sides thing. Did AA do a good job? Eh. Not to my taste but ok. Has Shapiro done a great job? Eh. He's done alright with a mis-step here or there. All the information we have says that.

I really don't think there's anything going on here beyond the team is not winning a lot these days so some fans are upset. No more, no less. So there are attempts to rationalize those feelings and attribute them to personal issues and so on. Venting is fine and everything but it's when those feelings try to adopt the sheen of fact-based arguments that they bug me.

As usual its all about what have you done for me lately. Glad Tulo helped the Jays make a couple playoff runs, but this guy is just a broken down shell of his former self now. I honestly don't care about the $38 M, more happy he is gone and that a spot has opened up for Gurriel Jr./Bichette. I also didn't care much for his latest comments saying he would remain a starting shortstop, despite the fact he can't stay healthy...go do it somewhere else then. ::)In some ways its like how Donaldson was moved to make way for Vlad Jr. Really looking forward to seeing the left side of the infield next season!

To answer your question Frank, its all about breaking up that infield log jam. The Jays just don't have the roster space, had 39 of the 40 spots filled prior to this move. Diaz got dealt, Solarte was non-tendered and now Tulo has been released. The Jays needed to flush some of the glut to make way for the young guns. Probably only a matter of time before Travis is gone, likely when Bichette is ready.

As usual its all about what have you done for me lately. Glad Tulo helped the Jays make a couple playoff runs, but this guy is just a broken down shell of his former self now. I honestly don't care about the $38 M, more happy he is gone and that a spot has opened up for Gurriel Jr./Bichette. I also didn't care much for his latest comments saying he would remain a starting shortstop, despite the fact he can't stay healthy...go do it somewhere else then. ::)In some ways its like how Donaldson was moved to make way for Vlad Jr. Really looking forward to seeing the left side of the infield next season!

To answer your question Frank, its all about breaking up that infield log jam. The Jays just don't have the roster space, had 39 of the 40 spots filled prior to this move. Diaz got dealt, Solarte was non-tendered and now Tulo has been released. The Jays needed to flush some of the glut to make way for the young guns. Probably only a matter of time before Travis is gone, likely when Bichette is ready.

Thank you, so if I understand, similar to NHL in terms of roster spot limitations. Basically just paying a guy full contract value to disappear and make way for new kids.

As usual its all about what have you done for me lately. Glad Tulo helped the Jays make a couple playoff runs, but this guy is just a broken down shell of his former self now. I honestly don't care about the $38 M, more happy he is gone and that a spot has opened up for Gurriel Jr./Bichette. I also didn't care much for his latest comments saying he would remain a starting shortstop, despite the fact he can't stay healthy...go do it somewhere else then. ::)In some ways its like how Donaldson was moved to make way for Vlad Jr. Really looking forward to seeing the left side of the infield next season!

To answer your question Frank, its all about breaking up that infield log jam. The Jays just don't have the roster space, had 39 of the 40 spots filled prior to this move. Diaz got dealt, Solarte was non-tendered and now Tulo has been released. The Jays needed to flush some of the glut to make way for the young guns. Probably only a matter of time before Travis is gone, likely when Bichette is ready.

Thank you, so if I understand, similar to NHL in terms of roster spot limitations. Basically just paying a guy full contract value to disappear and make way for new kids.

Is Martin far behind then?

He likely has some form of value either to the team as a player-coach or if the Jays eat salary he is still a capable catcher at a cheaper deal in a trade.

I'm a little surprised that they couldn't find someone to take on even a fraction of his salary but I think this is where you take that to mean that it's pretty unlikely that Tulowitzki is ever a Major League SS again or, if he is, that it's going to be a journey of him finding out he can't play the way he once could.

Either way, it's sunk money for the Jays. Give the ABs to Gurriel for now, let Bichette work his way up.

As usual its all about what have you done for me lately. Glad Tulo helped the Jays make a couple playoff runs, but this guy is just a broken down shell of his former self now. I honestly don't care about the $38 M, more happy he is gone and that a spot has opened up for Gurriel Jr./Bichette. I also didn't care much for his latest comments saying he would remain a starting shortstop, despite the fact he can't stay healthy...go do it somewhere else then. ::)In some ways its like how Donaldson was moved to make way for Vlad Jr. Really looking forward to seeing the left side of the infield next season!

To answer your question Frank, its all about breaking up that infield log jam. The Jays just don't have the roster space, had 39 of the 40 spots filled prior to this move. Diaz got dealt, Solarte was non-tendered and now Tulo has been released. The Jays needed to flush some of the glut to make way for the young guns. Probably only a matter of time before Travis is gone, likely when Bichette is ready.

Thank you, so if I understand, similar to NHL in terms of roster spot limitations. Basically just paying a guy full contract value to disappear and make way for new kids.

Is Martin far behind then?

He likely has some form of value either to the team as a player-coach or if the Jays eat salary he is still a capable catcher at a cheaper deal in a trade.

Agreed.Honestly I'm surprised it wasn't Martin to be moved first given he only has 1 year left on his deal, you can deal him if you eat some of his salary (figure a team like Milwaukee would bite?) and Jansen looks poised to take over the starting duties. Add Maile and McGuire to the mix and it's tough to justify having a $20 million backup catcher (no disrespect to Russ).

Can I just ask why this experiment was killed before it even started? Why not let Tulo report to spring training and perhaps build up some trade value? If he showed up at camp healthy and playing well, perhaps another team would have taken a flier on him and perhaps eaten up part of his salary.

I will say that to me this move does not seem baseball related at all. It was personal. If I had to guess I would say that Tulo was a voice of dissent within the clubhouse against the current management. I do believe Shapiro in particular shipped Tulo out of town for this reason.

Tulo‚Äôs agent, Paul Cohen: ‚ÄúI‚Äôve known Mark Shapiro for decades. He is one of the most decent, forthright, honest people I know. If they are really going to go with young guys next year, it‚Äôs best to give Troy the opportunity now to seek out the best situation‚Ä¶‚ÄĚ 1/2

I will say that to me this move does not seem baseball related at all. It was personal. If I had to guess I would say that Tulo was a voice of dissent within the clubhouse against the current management. I do believe Shapiro in particular shipped Tulo out of town for this reason.

I will say that to me this move does not seem baseball related at all. It was personal. If I had to guess I would say that Tulo was a voice of dissent within the clubhouse against the current management. I do believe Shapiro in particular shipped Tulo out of town for this reason.

Yep, or, as seems to be the case, the exact opposite of this.

So then why exactly do you feel that they shouldn't have allowed Tulo to attend spring training and build up some trade value? I understand the move in the sense that it gives the younger players playing time. But what I don't understand is paying him $30 million to do nothing when another team might have been willing to eat at least some salary had he proven to be a healthy and effective player.

So then why exactly do you feel that they shouldn't have allowed Tulo to attend spring training and build up some trade value? I understand the move in the sense that it gives the younger players playing time. But what I don't understand is paying him $30 million to do nothing when another team might have been willing to eat at least some salary had he proven to be a healthy and effective player.

By the time he might have been able to build up enough value for another team to take on any meaningful amount of his salary, the Jays would have already had paid most of this season's salary, and he would have taken playing time away from the young guys the team wants to develop at the big league level. He hasn't played in a season and a half. It would have taken months for other teams to believe he's healthy enough to be a contributor - and that's not even considering the fact that, in his last two relatively healthy seasons, he was basically a roughly league average bat. If there are any issues with his ability to play a defensive position - there would be significant concerns, regardless of whether or not he is healthy enough to take the field in spring training. Even if he did generate some interest in spring training, the Jays would have been on the hook for basically his entire salary in any deal worth making, and, odds are against that deal materializing. Realistically, it's eat the contract now, and give Tulo a chance to catch on somewhere else, or eat the contract in the spring, and put Tulo in a much more difficult situation when it comes to finding a job.

At best, right now, his value is zero, and it's going to take a long time to build it up to anything substantially more than zero. That's time the team shouldn't be wasting on him, as the return isn't going to be anything worthwhile.

So then why exactly do you feel that they shouldn't have allowed Tulo to attend spring training and build up some trade value? I understand the move in the sense that it gives the younger players playing time. But what I don't understand is paying him $30 million to do nothing when another team might have been willing to eat at least some salary had he proven to be a healthy and effective player.

By the time he might have been able to build up enough value for another team to take on any meaningful amount of his salary, the Jays would have already had paid most of this season's salary, and he would have taken playing time away from the young guys the team wants to develop at the big league level. He hasn't played in a season and a half. It would have taken months for other teams to believe he's healthy enough to be a contributor - and that's not even considering the fact that, in his last two relatively healthy seasons, he was basically a roughly league average bat. If there are any issues with his ability to play a defensive position - there would be significant concerns, regardless of whether or not he is healthy enough to take the field in spring training. Even if he did generate some interest in spring training, the Jays would have been on the hook for basically his entire salary in any deal worth making, and, odds are against that deal materializing. Realistically, it's eat the contract now, and give Tulo a chance to catch on somewhere else, or eat the contract in the spring, and put Tulo in a much more difficult situation when it comes to finding a job.

At best, right now, his value is zero, and it's going to take a long time to build it up to anything substantially more than zero. That's time the team shouldn't be wasting on him, as the return isn't going to be anything worthwhile.

You don't know that. And we never will because of this bone headed management.

So then why exactly do you feel that they shouldn't have allowed Tulo to attend spring training and build up some trade value? I understand the move in the sense that it gives the younger players playing time. But what I don't understand is paying him $30 million to do nothing when another team might have been willing to eat at least some salary had he proven to be a healthy and effective player.

By the time he might have been able to build up enough value for another team to take on any meaningful amount of his salary, the Jays would have already had paid most of this season's salary, and he would have taken playing time away from the young guys the team wants to develop at the big league level. He hasn't played in a season and a half. It would have taken months for other teams to believe he's healthy enough to be a contributor - and that's not even considering the fact that, in his last two relatively healthy seasons, he was basically a roughly league average bat. If there are any issues with his ability to play a defensive position - there would be significant concerns, regardless of whether or not he is healthy enough to take the field in spring training. Even if he did generate some interest in spring training, the Jays would have been on the hook for basically his entire salary in any deal worth making, and, odds are against that deal materializing. Realistically, it's eat the contract now, and give Tulo a chance to catch on somewhere else, or eat the contract in the spring, and put Tulo in a much more difficult situation when it comes to finding a job.

At best, right now, his value is zero, and it's going to take a long time to build it up to anything substantially more than zero. That's time the team shouldn't be wasting on him, as the return isn't going to be anything worthwhile.

If I was the GM of another team, it would take half a season at the very least of strong play before I would even consider giving up anything of even remote value or take on significant money to get Tulo.

As the Jays, I'd rather give those PAs to Gurriel then hold out hope that they may be able to get a long shot prospect or save a few dollars.

If I was the GM of another team, it would take half a season at the very least of strong play before I would even consider giving up anything of even remote value or take on significant money to get Tulo.

As the Jays, I'd rather give those PAs to Gurriel then hold out hope that they may be able to get a long shot prospect or save a few dollars.

Exactly. He'd have to be in the lineup almost every day, produce at an above average level, and play stellar defence. That's asking a lot of someone who hasn't played in a year and a half.

Yeah, the idea of Tulowitzki "building value" with a hot spring training or start to the season is pretty far fetched. Tulowitzki hasn't played 130 games in a season since 2011. It's not a question of can he be healthy or play well, although those are still valid questions, it's about staying healthy. There's no way for him to prove that outside of being healthy for a year and you're not going to give him a year of at-bats to prove that he's healthy.

"Building value" in this context is also sort of a zero-sum game. Every at-bat you give to Tulowitzki so he can "build value" is an at-bat you're not giving to Gurriel or Travis or Morales to try and let them build value and all three of those guys are probably more likely to "build value" in a meaningful sense than Tulowitzki is. There's almost certainly more value in seeing who Gurriel is when playing every day than whatever Tulowitzki could bring if he defeats the odds and has a strong season next year.

Could Tulowitzki play well enough in a limited role that you might be able to convince a team to eat some of his salary? Maybe but why do we care about that? The Jays aren't going to need to save that money over the next two years.

So what you have here is Shapiro and co. looking honestly and soberly about Tulowitzki's future with the club, deciding in favour of playing their younger guys with real futures and doing right by Tulowitzki by giving him a chance to latch on somewhere else. If they kept Tulowitzki with the intention of not playing him much, as his level of play would probably deserve, it'd make it harder on him to bounce back when they eventually did release him.

There's probably more "value" in Shapiro having the reputation among agents that he does with Tulo's agent than any sort of minor prospect Tulowitzki could have brought in if he was healthy.

Tulo's value wouldn't be boosted by a good spring training. His injury issues and reputation as being a soft player are what will hold him back, on top of being extremely expensive. His bat fell off quite a bit before his trade to Toronto. He had a few really important hits for the organization but overall was just not a great acquisition. We wouldn't have received much of value for him in a trade even if we convinced someone to take him on and the benefit of Gurriel getting playing time or giving Travis an opportunity to perform up until his eventual replacement when Guerrero/Bichette/Biggio push into the Majors is more valuable in terms of building a trade asset.

Tulo's value wouldn't be boosted by a good spring training. His injury issues and reputation as being a soft player are what will hold him back, on top of being extremely expensive. His bat fell off quite a bit before his trade to Toronto. He had a few really important hits for the organization but overall was just not a great acquisition. We wouldn't have received much of value for him in a trade even if we convinced someone to take him on and the benefit of Gurriel getting playing time or giving Travis an opportunity to perform up until his eventual replacement when Guerrero/Bichette/Biggio push into the Majors is more valuable in terms of building a trade asset.

This is a good move by the organization.

In 87 games before the trade to Toronto, Tulo was batting .300, was on pace for 22 home runs and 99 rbi and had a .818 OPS. The year previous he had an OPS over 1.000. Not sure where that narrative comes from.

His bat fell off after the trade to Toronto, but I'm not sure anyone could have predicted that. His 24 home runs and 79 rbi in 131 games in 2016 weren't too bad to be honest.

In 87 games before the trade to Toronto, Tulo was batting .300, was on pace for 22 home runs and 99 rbi and had a .818 OPS. The year previous he had an OPS over 1.000. Not sure where that narrative comes from.

A lot of what you're seeing is just the illusion of playing in Coors Field. In his road stats in 2014 he slashed .257/.364/.447 and then in 2015 he drops to .276/.327/.409.

In 87 games before the trade to Toronto, Tulo was batting .300, was on pace for 22 home runs and 99 rbi and had a .818 OPS. The year previous he had an OPS over 1.000. Not sure where that narrative comes from.

A lot of what you're seeing is just the illusion of playing in Coors Field. In his road stats in 2014 he slashed .257/.364/.447 and then in 2015 he drops to .276/.327/.409.

His Road OPS goes:

2013: .8502014: .8112015: .736

His .761 OPS in 2016 was actually a bit of a bounceback.

I get the Coors field bump, but his entire career was played at Coors Field and doesn't bear out a decline. His home OPS increased from 1.010 in 2013 to 1.246 in 2014.

His career "away" OPS is .791. 2013 and 2014 were both above that.

*His 2015 away OPS of .736 you listed above includes his time as a Jay. He had an .834 OPS at Coors field in 2015 and an .818 as a Rocky that year - putting his road OPS somewhere around .802 before his trade as a Jay. Honestly, I think it's all in what you'd expect from Troy Tulowitzki.

I get the Coors field bump, but his entire career was played at Coors Field and doesn't bear out a decline. His home OPS increased from 1.010 in 2013 to 1.246 in 2014.

Right, but that's why road statistics are typically used as the context-neutral baseline. During his peak years(2009-2011), Tulowitzki had Road OPS's of .859, .863 and even .881. In 2013 it was fairly consistent with that and by 2015 it had fallen more than 100 points. So the evidence that he had already begun to slip from his peak is actually pretty strong even if Coors was covering that up a little.

One of the tricky things with Tulowitzki, because he was injured so often, is separating what of his decline is injury related, what is age related and what is just the standard variations in a baseball career. In this case though, when you compare him to his peak, it's pretty clear he was already moving away from his best years.

Another thing worth mentioning re: Tulowitzki's 2014 is that his BABIP was a fairly uncharacteristic .355 so his slightly stronger home numbers there were probably not sustainable even if he'd stayed in Colorado.

I get the Coors field bump, but his entire career was played at Coors Field and doesn't bear out a decline. His home OPS increased from 1.010 in 2013 to 1.246 in 2014.

Right, but that's why road statistics are typically used as the context-neutral baseline. During his peak years(2009-2011), Tulowitzki had Road OPS's of .859, .863 and even .881. In 2013 it was fairly consistent with that and by 2015 it had fallen more than 100 points. So the evidence that he had already begun to slip from his peak is actually pretty strong even if Coors was covering that up a little.

One of the tricky things with Tulowitzki, because he was injured so often, is separating what of his decline is injury related, what is age related and what is just the standard variations in a baseball career. In this case though, when you compare him to his peak, it's pretty clear he was already moving away from his best years.

When the Jays traded for Tulo his road OPS hadn't fallen by more than 100 points.

I don't think anyone would argue that the Jays were trading for peak Troy Tulowitzki.

When the Jays traded for Tulo his road OPS hadn't fallen by more than 100 points.

Right, I didn't say it had. From where he was consistently at his peak it had fallen by around 50 points by the time of the trade which is still a pretty meaningful decline. From 2013 to 2015 it's a fairly unmistakable downward slide in his ability to hit in any ballpark other than Coors.

When the Jays traded for Tulo his road OPS hadn't fallen by more than 100 points.

Right, I didn't say it had. From where he was consistently at his peak it had fallen by around 50 points by the time of the trade which is still a pretty meaningful decline. From 2013 to 2015 it's a fairly unmistakable downward slide in his ability to hit in any ballpark other than Coors.

Sorry, got confused. I thought we were talking about before the Jays traded for him.

Sorry, got confused. I thought we were talking about before the Jays traded for him.

Right and, again, when he was at his peak his road OPS was consistently in the 860-880 range. When he was traded he'd had about 180 games over two seasons where it was about 50-70 points lower than that.

So that's the evidence for the contention that his bat was already starting to slip when he was traded.

Davidi confirms it's $3.5M, which makes him a very affordable pickup at the deadline. If he performs reasonably, he'll net the Jays something at the deadline - even if it's just a couple relief prospects.

Jays acquired LH starter Clayton Richard and cash considerations from the Padres for AA OF Connor Panas. The Padres will cover half of Richard's $3 million salary for 2019. Looks like between Shoemaker and Richard the Jays have their 2019 rotation firmed up for $5 Million combined.

It wasn't the biggest deal in the world but the Jays signed Freddy Galvis the other day to a one year deal with a team option. He's a pretty solid defensive SS who might be able to hit a bit away in good hitter's parks.

...Jays are covering $10M and get international bonus money in return + Jesus (nobody) Lopez

Probably clearing at-bats for Vlad.

Also, clearing up the DH spot to be able to rotate in guys like Hernandez, Smoak, etc., I imagine. The team will be paying ~$50M this season for guys to play elsewhere, but, that's part of the stripping down process.

...Jays are covering $10M and get international bonus money in return + Jesus (nobody) Lopez

Probably clearing at-bats for Vlad.

Also, clearing up the DH spot to be able to rotate in guys like Hernandez, Smoak, etc., I imagine. The team will be paying ~$50M this season for guys to play elsewhere, but, that's part of the stripping down process.

Props to Jays management for not letting money get in the way of development.

...Jays are covering $10M and get international bonus money in return + Jesus (nobody) Lopez

Probably clearing at-bats for Vlad.

Also, clearing up the DH spot to be able to rotate in guys like Hernandez, Smoak, etc., I imagine. The team will be paying ~$50M this season for guys to play elsewhere, but, that's part of the stripping down process.

Props to Jays management for not letting money get in the way of development.

I agree. Get the younger guys at-bats and experience. See what you have.

The team will be paying ~$50M this season for guys to play elsewhere, but, that's part of the stripping down process.

I still don't get why that's such a sticking point for some people. The Martin and Tulo deals were deals that anyone could have seen were going to look ugly near their end and when AA took them on it was discussed at the time.

The team will be paying ~$50M this season for guys to play elsewhere, but, that's part of the stripping down process.

I still don't get why that's such a sticking point for some people. The Martin and Tulo deals were deals that anyone could have seen were going to look ugly near their end and when AA took them on it was discussed at the time.

Yeah. It's not like baseball has a cap or the Jays are going come anywhere near the luxury tax threshold before those contracts expire. They were never going to spend that money elsewhere, the guys they moved/let go weren't likely to improve their trade value with Toronto, and their roster spots/playing time is better used on players the team hopes to develop into longer term pieces. Some people just don't like the idea of money being spent on nothing - even when it's not their money.

The team will be paying ~$50M this season for guys to play elsewhere, but, that's part of the stripping down process.

I still don't get why that's such a sticking point for some people. The Martin and Tulo deals were deals that anyone could have seen were going to look ugly near their end and when AA took them on it was discussed at the time.

Yeah. It's not like baseball has a cap or the Jays are going come anywhere near the luxury tax threshold before those contracts expire. They were never going to spend that money elsewhere, the guys they moved/let go weren't likely to improve their trade value with Toronto, and their roster spots/playing time is better used on players the team hopes to develop into longer term pieces. Some people just don't like the idea of money being spent on nothing - even when it's not their money.

I also think they believe that the money is being given to players no longer on the team as opposed to giving it to players that could help the team but I don't think that's the case either.

After the Morales trade, combined with the international money the Jays got from the Dwight Smith jr trade, the Jays have $1.5m to use on signing an international player which could return a very useful player. Jays spent just under $4m to get Vlad jr.

...Jays are covering $10M and get international bonus money in return + Jesus (nobody) Lopez

Probably clearing at-bats for Vlad.

It's flexibility for Vlad to play DH if Drury is any good this year. It's also a way to get Hernandez at bats if his defense in LF continues to be a tire fire. It also lets Tellez get at bats until Vlad comes up at least.

I also think they believe that the money is being given to players no longer on the team as opposed to giving it to players that could help the team but I don't think that's the case either.

Maybe. I mean, unless they could have convinced another team to take on the full salary, the Jays were going to be paying these guys, regardless. Basically, that money was never going to be available to give to the guys they want to keep around long-term. Tulo, Martin, and Morales either got it from the Jays as a Jay, or from the Jays (indirectly, in the cases of Martin and Morales - their cheques will come from their new clubs, but those teams got the money to cover most of those cheques from the Jays) while on another team.

I get the optics of it aren't good,I get why it's a funny line to say but it's not like "The Jays are paying 50 million to guys on other teams" is better than "The guys are paying 50 million to guys contributing no value to the team" which is almost certainly what would happen if those guys stuck around.

Outfielder Socrates Brito and infielder Alen Hanson, both 26, are expected to join the big league club but won‚Äôt be today, coming from West Coast. RH Derek Law going to Triple A, RH Juan de Paula to one of #BlueJays A ball teams.

Outfielder Socrates Brito and infielder Alen Hanson, both 26, are expected to join the big league club but won‚Äôt be today, coming from West Coast. RH Derek Law going to Triple A, RH Juan de Paula to one of #BlueJays A ball teams.

Jays starter Matt Shoemaker, the teamís best pitcher so far this season, will be out for the year. Diagnosed with a torn ACL (anterior cruciate ligament) or knee injury, Shoemaker was devastated at missing the season, a season of much success for himself being the Jays number one starter.

A huge blow for Toronto. Who will replace Shoemaker?

The Jays already have one other starter on the IL ó Ryan Borucki who is not slated to return until sometime next month.

Jays skipper Montoyo:

Quote

He was one of the best pitchers in baseball over the first month," manager Charlie Montoyo said. "Itís a tough loss for us.Ē

An upset Shoemaker:

Quote

The biggest thing is itís frustrating," he said. "I can deal with this stuff. I know I seem pretty upset right now, which I am, but Iíve had bumps in the road before and Iím just going to fight through it. Thatís just who I am. Itís just really upsetting right now."