WiscTribeFan wrote:As has been mentioned, the player's union is one of the strongest unions in the universe, and they aren't pushing back very hard. These clowns must have really left a nice trail of evidence for all to see if they are all willing to take a 50 game suspension without balking.

They deserve what they get. I can't feel bad for them, considering most of them make more in one season that probably all of us do in our lifetime.

I think part of the lack of union support is because a lot of fellow players don't support PED users, especially if proven guilty. You'd have quite a bit of in-house fighting between guys who want to support players no matter what and guys who have no sympathy for cheaters.

That would weaken the entire union and that's not what the majority of players want.

A God Damn dead man would understand that if a minor league bus in any city took a real sharp right turn, a Zack McCalister would likely fall out. - Lead Pipe

leadpipe wrote:I'm lead to believe they've got a ton of evidence, based on the fact that the strongest union known to man is seemingly willing to cut deals. As far as Selig dragging this along....I'm not sure the guy knows how to handle it. The only reason Braun's case is in the rear view is HE called MLB to get a deal cut - which is another reason I think there is big time evidence against these guys. But again, if the evidence is that big, this should be done already.

By the way, MLB even screwed up Braun's penalty. Christ, the rest of this season - a season in which the team stinks, Braun is already struggling through games with the elbow issue, and then he comes back ready for a higher salaried season. If it weren't for the public shame of lying, this would be a dream come true.

Well, we only saw one deal, everyone else got the standard punishment as set by the JDA, and Rodriguez is going to fight any punishment over that, so I'm guessing that they don't have a ton of evidence, but that Selig and MLB were bluffing their asses off. If they had legit evidence, we would have seen it, and they would have suspended the guys by the rules established. Good to know that Selig is intent on turning a signed agreement into multiple games of chicken. And as far as extra punishments for attempting to cover it up or lying about use? We don't have to go back too far to find Melky Cabrera got no extra punishment for that. Selig is targeting specific players he doesn't like (Braun and Rodriguez) and trying to make an example instead of just following the agreed upon JDA. Its a damn shame what he's trying to do.

And to eye, few, if any contracts will have PED language. No player would agree to that, and why would they, especially now that the specific punishments for PED use are spelled out in the JDA. Back before testing, Giambi supposedly had a PED clause in his contract, but it was eventually scrubbed out.

leadpipe wrote:I'm lead to believe they've got a ton of evidence, based on the fact that the strongest union known to man is seemingly willing to cut deals. As far as Selig dragging this along....I'm not sure the guy knows how to handle it. The only reason Braun's case is in the rear view is HE called MLB to get a deal cut - which is another reason I think there is big time evidence against these guys. But again, if the evidence is that big, this should be done already.

By the way, MLB even screwed up Braun's penalty. Christ, the rest of this season - a season in which the team stinks, Braun is already struggling through games with the elbow issue, and then he comes back ready for a higher salaried season. If it weren't for the public shame of lying, this would be a dream come true.

Well, we only saw one deal, everyone else got the standard punishment as set by the JDA, and Rodriguez is going to fight any punishment over that, so I'm guessing that they don't have a ton of evidence, but that Selig and MLB were bluffing their asses off. If they had legit evidence, we would have seen it, and they would have suspended the guys by the rules established. Good to know that Selig is intent on turning a signed agreement into multiple games of chicken. And as far as extra punishments for attempting to cover it up or lying about use? We don't have to go back too far to find Melky Cabrera got no extra punishment for that. Selig is targeting specific players he doesn't like (Braun and Rodriguez) and trying to make an example instead of just following the agreed upon JDA. Its a damn shame what he's trying to do.

And to eye, few, if any contracts will have PED language. No player would agree to that, and why would they, especially now that the specific punishments for PED use are spelled out in the JDA. Back before testing, Giambi supposedly had a PED clause in his contract, but it was eventually scrubbed out.

Wait. Bud Selig hates Ryan Braun? The best player on the team he once owned? Please tell me where that idea comes from.

Sounds to me like MLB is able to prove multiple instances for all these players and was moving forward with longer than 50 games in each case, but allowed each to settle for "only" the 50 games for not appealing. Why else would 13 players of various importance to their current teams just step back and agree to the bans? Without ever testing positive?

Baseball does not have to release anything, especially before today. Odds are they are not even allowed to go public. What the players do have the right to do is appeal and request a public arbirtration, releasing everything that has to do with their case. Think any are lining up to do that? Either do I.

leadpipe wrote:I'm lead to believe they've got a ton of evidence, based on the fact that the strongest union known to man is seemingly willing to cut deals. As far as Selig dragging this along....I'm not sure the guy knows how to handle it. The only reason Braun's case is in the rear view is HE called MLB to get a deal cut - which is another reason I think there is big time evidence against these guys. But again, if the evidence is that big, this should be done already.

By the way, MLB even screwed up Braun's penalty. Christ, the rest of this season - a season in which the team stinks, Braun is already struggling through games with the elbow issue, and then he comes back ready for a higher salaried season. If it weren't for the public shame of lying, this would be a dream come true.

Well, we only saw one deal, everyone else got the standard punishment as set by the JDA, and Rodriguez is going to fight any punishment over that, so I'm guessing that they don't have a ton of evidence, but that Selig and MLB were bluffing their asses off. If they had legit evidence, we would have seen it, and they would have suspended the guys by the rules established. Good to know that Selig is intent on turning a signed agreement into multiple games of chicken. And as far as extra punishments for attempting to cover it up or lying about use? We don't have to go back too far to find Melky Cabrera got no extra punishment for that. Selig is targeting specific players he doesn't like (Braun and Rodriguez) and trying to make an example instead of just following the agreed upon JDA. Its a damn shame what he's trying to do.

And to eye, few, if any contracts will have PED language. No player would agree to that, and why would they, especially now that the specific punishments for PED use are spelled out in the JDA. Back before testing, Giambi supposedly had a PED clause in his contract, but it was eventually scrubbed out.

I'd imagine the delay in the Rodriguez case is much to do about who can get a piece of the pie. Good God, you got a messed up MLB, the Yankees frantically trying to rid themselves of the guy and the contract, insurance companies - and other teams watching like hawks.(At least until the league ,ahem, persuades them not to) Who the hell knows what's really going on.

LOL at the weakest commissioner in sports and the strongest union in sports having 12 players willingly take suspensions without appeals being evidence the MLB doesn't have a strong case against those players.

pup wrote:Wait. Bud Selig hates Ryan Braun? The best player on the team he once owned? Please tell me where that idea comes from.

Sounds to me like MLB is able to prove multiple instances for all these players and was moving forward with longer than 50 games in each case, but allowed each to settle for "only" the 50 games for not appealing. Why else would 13 players of various importance to their current teams just step back and agree to the bans? Without ever testing positive?

Baseball does not have to release anything, especially before today. Odds are they are not even allowed to go public. What the players do have the right to do is appeal and request a public arbirtration, releasing everything that has to do with their case. Think any are lining up to do that? Either do I.

If you don't think Selig was specifically looking to get back at Braun, then you haven't been paying attention.

Your second paragraph is bananas. If MLB could actually prove the players did something to warrant a suspension of more than 50 games, there wouldn't be a negotiation. It would simply be a hammer hitting the nail. That MLB could "only" get the exact punishment outlined in the JDA for a first time offender shows that they had nothing more than that. If MLB "allowed" a lighter punishment than they could have gotten by having the player give up his right to appeal, that means that MLB found not having to deal with an appeal very valuable. I'm sure there are plenty of things they don't want showing up in public either. That's usually the case though when you are buying off drug dealers.

pup wrote:Wait. Bud Selig hates Ryan Braun? The best player on the team he once owned? Please tell me where that idea comes from.

Sounds to me like MLB is able to prove multiple instances for all these players and was moving forward with longer than 50 games in each case, but allowed each to settle for "only" the 50 games for not appealing. Why else would 13 players of various importance to their current teams just step back and agree to the bans? Without ever testing positive?

Baseball does not have to release anything, especially before today. Odds are they are not even allowed to go public. What the players do have the right to do is appeal and request a public arbirtration, releasing everything that has to do with their case. Think any are lining up to do that? Either do I.

If you don't think Selig was specifically looking to get back at Braun, then you haven't been paying attention.

Your second paragraph is bananas. If MLB could actually prove the players did something to warrant a suspension of more than 50 games, there wouldn't be a negotiation. It would simply be a hammer hitting the nail. That MLB could "only" get the exact punishment outlined in the JDA for a first time offender shows that they had nothing more than that. If MLB "allowed" a lighter punishment than they could have gotten by having the player give up his right to appeal, that means that MLB found not having to deal with an appeal very valuable. I'm sure there are plenty of things they don't want showing up in public either. That's usually the case though when you are buying off drug dealers.

So, please, for all of us simpletons explain why Nelson Cruz and Jhonny Peralta have chosen to take the last 50 games of a pennant race as a suspension instead of fighting this pile of non facts and innuendo, clearing their name and letting the truth come to light. Tell me why Ryan Braun, the only person to ever successfully appeal has chosen to drop his fight and admit to the crimes he so steadfastly denied and completely ruined his reputation amongst his peers.

A dozen players were just suspended on the same day for PED use -- and not one of them failed a drug test.

A dozen players were presented with the overpowering evidence compiled during the most extensive, most expensive drug investigation in the history of sports -- and all 12 of them decided this was not a fight worth fighting. The facts were too overwhelming, too unbeatable.

So all 12 of them turned in their right-to-appeal cards and began serving their time, amid apologies, statements of contrition, expressions of regret.

And if only that had been all that happened on this day, what a powerful day this would have been.

skatingtripods wrote:\I think part of the lack of union support is because a lot of fellow players don't support PED users, especially if proven guilty. You'd have quite a bit of in-house fighting between guys who want to support players no matter what and guys who have no sympathy for cheaters.

To your point, I caught a snipit of an interview during the Tribe-Tigers game... I think it was with Scherzer. I certainly get the feeling he did not have the "support your teammate" line. It seemed he was glad that they are cleaning up the sport... even if its one of his teammates.

"The nose of the bulldog has been slanted backwards so that he can breathe without letting go." -- Winston Churchill

pup wrote:So, please, for all of us simpletons explain why Nelson Cruz and Jhonny Peralta have chosen to take the last 50 games of a pennant race as a suspension instead of fighting this pile of non facts and innuendo, clearing their name and letting the truth come to light. Tell me why Ryan Braun, the only person to ever successfully appeal has chosen to drop his fight and admit to the crimes he so steadfastly denied and completely ruined his reputation amongst his peers.

You seem to have a unique reading comprehension ability. I never said there was a pile of non facts and innuendo, or that MLB didn't have enough to get these guys for a first timers offense. In fact, I said that's exactly what they had, just nothing more, and for all of Selig's chest-puffing and big talk, that he couldn't get more than the most basic punishment for the everyone but Braun speaks volumes, I guess that extra 15 games he got on Braun really impresses people though.

As for your focus on this Selig not liking Braun (not, I didn't say he hated him, another clever interpretation on your part) this works

I'm sure you won't agree, but this point is so meaningless, I'll let it go.

And as far as my supposed take that stronger players are not more likely to hit a ball farther, well, back to that reading comprehension issue we've discussed. You hear what you want to hear, and that seems too frequently to be something different than what was said. Sigh, have fun with your witchhunt.

Peeker - Absolutely agree, and I'm sure somehow, the details about Rodriguez will be "accidentally" leaked, while we'll never hear a thing about what MLB had to promise Bosch to get him on their side.

7foot3 wrote:Peeker - Absolutely agree, and I'm sure somehow, the details about Rodriguez will be "accidentally" leaked, while we'll never hear a thing about what MLB had to promise Bosch to get him on their side.

Rodriguez probably has the wherewithal and incentive to employ some solid PR people of his own (and if anyone could use a good dose of that right now...) that you may hear something from his side in the form of 'leaks'.

But even if you don't, I think part of what Stark refers to as "the most expensive investigation in sports history" can probably be inferred to include some huge payments to key "witnesses".

A dozen players were just suspended on the same day for PED use -- and not one of them failed a drug test.

A dozen players were presented with the overpowering evidence compiled during the most extensive, most expensive drug investigation in the history of sports -- and all 12 of them decided this was not a fight worth fighting. The facts were too overwhelming, too unbeatable.

So all 12 of them turned in their right-to-appeal cards and began serving their time, amid apologies, statements of contrition, expressions of regret.

And if only that had been all that happened on this day, what a powerful day this would have been.

If only the P.T. A-Rod Circus hadn't pulled into town.

I'd expect pup, but not you, to buy into the histrionics and narrative. We've been hearing for weeks and months how Selig was going to bring the hammer down, and so far just one guy has gotten a longer suspension than Melky, a guy who tested positive and tried to fake a website to cover it up. We've been hearing about all this great evidence, and yet MLB refuses to show us, and has only gotten Selig the most basic punishment for these guys. Stark has to sell clicks, so of course he's going to drum up the story, but color me unimpressed so far.

Note: if you aren't actually buying the overwrought narrative that Stark is trying to sell, apologies.

Clicks are cash and ESPN and MLB are in bed, no doubt. The ARod histrionics in regard to Stark's column may well be partly a creation of that relationship. But I don't doubt that the evidence is overwhelming, regardless of how it was obtained, or at what price.

Guys that appeal 3 game suspensions for ejections for charging the mound in hopes of gaining a day of pay just don't strike me as the sort to roll over on a 50 game unpaid leave.

Could the union also be weary of fighting the battle and smearing their reputation and therefore less vocal in their defense? That's conceivable. Maybe they're looking at the long term of health of their organization and their own pockets (if not the actual health and well-being of that clientele).

But it's a departure from the normal SOPs of the union given their past. That makes me believe these guys who were suspended were nearly indefensible.

leadpipe wrote:I'm lead to believe they've got a ton of evidence, based on the fact that the strongest union known to man is seemingly willing to cut deals. As far as Selig dragging this along....I'm not sure the guy knows how to handle it. The only reason Braun's case is in the rear view is HE called MLB to get a deal cut - which is another reason I think there is big time evidence against these guys. But again, if the evidence is that big, this should be done already.

By the way, MLB even screwed up Braun's penalty. Christ, the rest of this season - a season in which the team stinks, Braun is already struggling through games with the elbow issue, and then he comes back ready for a higher salaried season. If it weren't for the public shame of lying, this would be a dream come true.

Well, we only saw one deal, everyone else got the standard punishment as set by the JDA, and Rodriguez is going to fight any punishment over that, so I'm guessing that they don't have a ton of evidence, but that Selig and MLB were bluffing their asses off. If they had legit evidence, we would have seen it, and they would have suspended the guys by the rules established. Good to know that Selig is intent on turning a signed agreement into multiple games of chicken. And as far as extra punishments for attempting to cover it up or lying about use? We don't have to go back too far to find Melky Cabrera got no extra punishment for that. Selig is targeting specific players he doesn't like (Braun and Rodriguez) and trying to make an example instead of just following the agreed upon JDA. Its a damn shame what he's trying to do.

And to eye, few, if any contracts will have PED language. No player would agree to that, and why would they, especially now that the specific punishments for PED use are spelled out in the JDA. Back before testing, Giambi supposedly had a PED clause in his contract, but it was eventually scrubbed out.

My apologies for confusing "not liking" with "hating".

The guy suspended 13 players without a failed test without a hint of appeals.

You assume everyone got the standard sentence. Without the possibility of accepting they had enough to get each of these guys for more, but settled for the 50 in exchange for no appeals. To be able to keep the documents behind closed doors.

peeker643 wrote:Clicks are cash and ESPN and MLB are in bed, no doubt. The ARod histrionics in regard to Stark's column may well be partly a creation of that relationship. But I don't doubt that the evidence is overwhelming, regardless of how it was obtained, or at what price.

Guys that appeal 3 game suspensions for ejections for charging the mound in hopes of gaining a day of pay just don't strike me as the sort to roll over on a 50 game unpaid leave.

Could the union also be weary of fighting the battle and smearing their reputation and therefore less vocal in their defense? That's conceivable. Maybe they're looking at the long term of health of their organization and their own pockets (if not the actual health and well-being of that clientele).

But it's a departure from the normal SOPs of the union given their past. That makes me believe these guys who were suspended were nearly indefensible.

The evidence may be overwhelming, but I have no doubt that Stark wouldn't have the slightest idea what that would even mean. The only reason he used that word is that he's repeating what some MLB official, just looking to make some good PR, told him. The guy writes puff pieces and jerk-off columns about odd, random statistics he digs up. He's not an expert on any pertaining topic, especially, and most importantly, labor law.

Guys appeal three game suspensions because there is no established and collectively bargained punishment for ejections, and an appeal is almost always successful in reducing the punishment. The same cannot be said for PEDs.

Without the possibility of accepting they had enough to get each of these guys for more, but settled for the 50 in exchange for no appeals. To be able to keep the documents behind closed doors

You've completely made this up, and it suggests you have no idea how the process even works. What part of the JDA did they violate that would get them more than 50 games for a first time offense?

peeker643 wrote:Clicks are cash and ESPN and MLB are in bed, no doubt. The ARod histrionics in regard to Stark's column may well be partly a creation of that relationship. But I don't doubt that the evidence is overwhelming, regardless of how it was obtained, or at what price.

Guys that appeal 3 game suspensions for ejections for charging the mound in hopes of gaining a day of pay just don't strike me as the sort to roll over on a 50 game unpaid leave.

Could the union also be weary of fighting the battle and smearing their reputation and therefore less vocal in their defense? That's conceivable. Maybe they're looking at the long term of health of their organization and their own pockets (if not the actual health and well-being of that clientele).

But it's a departure from the normal SOPs of the union given their past. That makes me believe these guys who were suspended were nearly indefensible.

The evidence may be overwhelming, but I have no doubt that Stark wouldn't have the slightest idea what that would even mean. The only reason he used that word is that he's repeating what some MLB official, just looking to make some good PR, told him. The guy writes puff pieces and jerk-off columns about odd, random statistics he digs up. He's not an expert on any pertaining topic, especially, and most importantly, labor law.

Guys appeal three game suspensions because there is no established and collectively bargained punishment for ejections, and an appeal is almost always successful in reducing the punishment. The same cannot be said for PEDs.

Without the possibility of accepting they had enough to get each of these guys for more, but settled for the 50 in exchange for no appeals. To be able to keep the documents behind closed doors

You've completely made this up, and it suggests you have no idea how the process even works. What part of the JDA did they violate that would get them more than 50 games for a first time offense?

The same part Alex Rodriguez and Ryan Braun did.

Look, we can go on and on. The game is and has been full of cheats for nearly 20 years. Some of the greatest moments of my life as both a Tribe fan and as a player were direct results of someone on my side treating their asses like a pin cushion and running enough juice to light up Jacobs Field. When a # larger than 55% of the players are clean, the suspensions will have teeth and the game will clean up. Til then, there will be a scandal per season and lines of sacrificial lambs, like today. Both sides are in CYA mode. Which is why they are all pissed at Alex. He is going to push until something nobody wants out there gets released.

pup wrote:So, please, for all of us simpletons explain why Nelson Cruz and Jhonny Peralta have chosen to take the last 50 games of a pennant race as a suspension instead of fighting this pile of non facts and innuendo, clearing their name and letting the truth come to light. Tell me why Ryan Braun, the only person to ever successfully appeal has chosen to drop his fight and admit to the crimes he so steadfastly denied and completely ruined his reputation amongst his peers.

Part of the reason that Cruz and Peralta didn't fight it was that they are both free agents in the off-season and they didn't want to hurt their marketability any further by not being eligible to play from the get-go. Had they been in the middle of a lengthy contract, I think both of them, and perhaps their teams, might have been OK with a token 'appeal' until the season ended. Sounds like Detroit and Texas will be washing their hands of these guys once the season ends. Both will have a lot less leverage in contract negotiations, that's for sure.

Look, we can go on and on. The game is and has been full of cheats for nearly 20 years. Some of the greatest moments of my life as both a Tribe fan and as a player were direct results of someone on my side treating their asses like a pin cushion and running enough juice to light up Jacobs Field. When a # larger than 55% of the players are clean, the suspensions will have teeth and the game will clean up. Til then, there will be a scandal per season and lines of sacrificial lambs, like today. Both sides are in CYA mode. Which is why they are all pissed at Alex. He is going to push until something nobody wants out there gets released.

Full of cheats for nearly 20 years? Try ever since the first game was played. Even if you think only PEDs are cheating (though they actually haven't been since 2004), look up Pud Galvin, or Willie Mays' "red juice". The game has never been "clean", and never will be.