Well, thoughts on Cleopatra are quite varied so I just wondered how you all felt. Was Cleopatra VII a good leader her made her country great, or was she a foolish monarch who threw her empire away to the Romans? What do you all think, what event in her reign do you think show her to be how you think?

I regard her to be a skilled statewoman who made a few bad choices as her reign progressed. I beleive that Cleopatra was far too preoccupied in using Mark Antony than to actually watch the political scene in Rome as evidence was building to show that Octavian was becoming more and more powerful in the earlier years of the Triumvirate. Her eventual decision to spark of a civil war was, in my view, badly planned and hasty. So I think that she was initially a good stateswoman, perhaps not that great a ruler in her early days but one who made various ill informed choices and ultimately paid a huge price for it.

Joined:Mon May 09, 2005 9:22 amPosts:574Location: The palace of Tutness!

Cleopatra....hmm...yeah. She wasn't the BEST queen...I prefer Hatshepsut over her. But, in my opinion, she really had it coming when she let the Romans overwhelm Egypt and, I'm sad to say, she was one of the reasons that the Egyptian empire fell.

There have been many stereotypes on her--seductress, murderer, weak and suicidal. Not to mention...submissive. Hm...

Speaking of which... ....There was a special on the Discovery channel that actually said she didn't kill herself, but rather, she was murdered, by Octavian no less O_O; Hn...I wonder...did anyone else see that? I forget the name of the show, and if anyone remembers, that would be greatly appreciated! ^_^ I also forgot how he killed her. Like I said, I saw this back in December, when the Egypt week live shows were on the Discovery channel. Which is a long time for me.

Cleopatra did't attract me ever, probably because she was greek, and she lived in the Roman period... the foreign Egypt's dominations I never like them... Like the_tutness_is_here, my favourite Queen/Pharaoh is Hatshepsut!

I can't help but blame her for ending the Egyptian Empire, but really there were few options open to her. If she had focused on trade and expansion rather than Mark Anthony she might have been able to form some sort of alliance with Rome to protect Egypt. She certianly chose her friends and enemies poorly.

Joined:Mon May 09, 2005 9:22 amPosts:574Location: The palace of Tutness!

Hatshepsut76 wrote:

Cleopatra did't attract me ever, probably because she was greek, and she lived in the Roman period... the foreign Egypt's dominations I never like them... Like the_tutness_is_here, my favourite Queen/Pharaoh is Hatshepsut!

Yay!! I LOVE Hatshepsut!! Nefertiti would be my second favorite, I don't know why, but...she just is!! Hatshepsut, in my opinion, was stronger than Cleopatra, and actually had a better reign than her. Although both were rather short, at least the dynasties kept going after Hatshepsut. Same with Akhenaten, though he was a king, his actions were not as radical as to bring the entire country and its dynasties/traditions to an ultimate end.

....And I still love Hatshepsut!! (Mind you, people, I'm not offending those who love cleopatra!! I'm being NICE about this, I really am...).

I voted 'average'. Egypt's fame comes from her (I mean if somebody says 'Egypt' the other thinks about pyramids, mummies and Cleopatra) but I think she wasn't the best queen of Egypt. I prefer Nitokris and Hatshepsut. I like Nitokris, because she was the first (OK, I heard about a queen, who's name was... well her name begin with K ) so second, but there's something mysterious about her - being a queen for the first (second... bah!) time. And Hatshepsut simply ruleZ! She didn't want any great wars like Ramses II or Thutmose III - she prefered to solve Egypt's problems on a commercial way. As I heard, she was the ideal of Amenhotep III, one of the greatest kings of Egypt.

Joined:Mon May 09, 2005 9:22 amPosts:574Location: The palace of Tutness!

Lostris, for some reason, I think of Tut or Akhenaten or pyramids or the Great Sphinx when I hear the word "Egypt"....I'm not a big fan of Cleopatra, and I consider her more Roman than Egyptian...I'm not starting a debate here, everyone!! Please, don't hurt me!! I'm actually waiting for Claude II to come on here and amuse us with his usual ranting!! And I'm not complaining...it's fun to read his posts, especially in MY case.

a) Her life isn't a complete mystery to us like most Egyptian Queens!
b) She ruled at one of the most amazing times for shaping history!
c) She wielded a hell of a lot more power than any other Queen at her height!
d) She comes across as a human being, not some removed from normality deity!
e) There are so many small personal details form her life that are known and make her interesting.
f) Her story alone is simply beautiful, turbulent and amazing.
g) She was a strong woman, she had to fight for more than any other Queen!
h) Through her whole reign as Queen she only tried to better Egypt, not stay happily maintaining what she'd been given.
i) Her reign is a great fusion of cultures that ultimately gave birth to the West!
j) She knew closely some of the most important people from history, Caesar, Cicero, Anthony, Octavian, Herod etc.
k) Her close ancestors built the temples Egypt is famous for today, Edfu, Philae, Esna, Kom-Ombo.
l) We have no body, so her death will always be as mysterious as her life is not.
m) She made herself to be an actual Goddess on earth in a far different way to Hatchepsut, she BECAME Aphrodite.
n) Her story is so tragic that we cant help feeling for her, no matter how much we blame her for ending Egypts Empire.

Women of this age were...kind of crazy. Livia Caesar killed her husband Augustus with a pomegrante so that Tiberius could become king.
And he was a poor king at that.
Thank God for Alaric the Visigoth for putting Rome out of it's misery.

Joined:Mon May 09, 2005 9:22 amPosts:574Location: The palace of Tutness!

Si-amun wrote:

Well, I adore Cleopatra because....

a) Her life isn't a complete mystery to us like most Egyptian Queens!b) She ruled at one of the most amazing times for shaping history!c) She wielded a hell of a lot more power than any other Queen at her height!d) She comes across as a human being, not some removed from normality deity!e) There are so many small personal details form her life that are known and make her interesting.f) Her story alone is simply beautiful, turbulent and amazing.g) She was a strong woman, she had to fight for more than any other Queen!h) Through her whole reign as Queen she only tried to better Egypt, not stay happily maintaining what she'd been given.i) Her reign is a great fusion of cultures that ultimately gave birth to the West!j) She knew closely some of the most important people from history, Caesar, Cicero, Anthony, Octavian, Herod etc.k) Her close ancestors built the temples Egypt is famous for today, Edfu, Philae, Esna, Kom-Ombo.l) We have no body, so her death will always be as mysterious as her life is not.m) She made herself to be an actual Goddess on earth in a far different way to Hatchepsut, she BECAME Aphrodite.n) Her story is so tragic that we cant help feeling for her, no matter how much we blame her for ending Egypts Empire.

There are a few reasons I came up with off the top of my head! lol

....Ok, assuming you LOVE Cleopatra, and that's a good thing! lol... Those are all really interesting and valid reasons, and I'm glad that you are proud to stand by your favorite queen!! For that, I applaud you!!!

Speaking of which... ....There was a special on the Discovery channel that actually said she didn't kill herself, but rather, she was murdered, by Octavian no less O_O; Hn...I wonder...did anyone else see that? I forget the name of the show, and if anyone remembers, that would be greatly appreciated! ^_^

I think it was something like 'Who Murdered Cleopatra?'. They repeated it on Channel 5 a while back in case anyone is from the uk.

Originally posted by Hatshepsut76

Quote:

Cleopatra did't attract me ever, probably because she was greek, and she lived in the Roman period... the foreign Egypt's dominations I never like them... Like the_tutness_is_here, my favourite Queen/Pharaoh is Hatshepsut!

She is always portrayed as being Greek and I have to admit that is how I have always looked at it but if we judged here by todays standards, which I guess we can't:-), she would be considered Egyptian of Greek decent. She was born in Egypt after all.I would say Nitocris, Sobeknefru, Hatshepsut, Twosret and then the Ptolemaic Queens. You could include Nefertiti if you believe she was actually Smenkhare.

I read some time back that they had re translated Khentkawes titles to meam 'Mother of the Two Kings of Upper and Lower Egypt' instead of 'Queen of Upper and Lower Egypt'. She wasn't the first pharaoh after all!

Well Egypt did get taken over in the end... But considering the circumstances, she really had very few options. It's not so much Cleopatra-the-ruler that intruiges me as it is Cleopatra-the-person. It isn't the hollywood portrayal (though that can be entertaining at times), but for example the way she knew tons of languages. Plus, looking at the images of the time, she really doesn't look all that attractive actually. It must have taken a really dynamic personality to seduce the most powerful men of the world the way she did.

Back to the topic though. Looking at the rising power of the Romans, she was sort of steering a sinking ship at the time... Maybe some of the old rulers would have been able to make Egypt give a good fight back, but I think that she did as good as most of the other former pharaohs could have done.

Joined:Mon May 09, 2005 9:22 amPosts:574Location: The palace of Tutness!

Tadukhipa wrote:

It isn't the hollywood portrayal (though that can be entertaining at times), but for example the way she knew tons of languages. Plus, looking at the images of the time, she really doesn't look all that attractive actually. It must have taken a really dynamic personality to seduce the most powerful men of the world the way she did.

...You know, you have a really good point on that! Though, first Hollywood scares audiences with mummy movies and curses and such, making Cleopatra a more beautiful seductress but yet weak, and The Ten Commandments...The Prince of Egypt...wow.

And it's true, she didn't win men over with her looks, as in the movies...it was her fierce and dynamic persona that intrigued them, and her power. I've seen images of her...and I believe that back then, looks didn't very well matter...to some...right?

Just had to say this, though: I HATE Hollywood stereotypes when it comes to the Ancient Egyptians and mummies and...ee-gad...I'll stop now before I begin to rant on random issues!!

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