Something that has been brought to my attention about interacting with men lately has been the old saying, “You get a lot further with honey than vinegar.” It’s another way of saying, tap your feminine wiles when dealing with a man.

Now the concept of feminine wiles is often regarded with scorn, as if they are either a sign of weakness or some dishonest way to manipulate men. And when employed for the wrong reasons, they certainly can be. But feminine wiles can also be used in a positive way, to improve communication and understanding with your mate, and that’s the way I am discussing them here.

Modern women, myself included, tend to use a very direct communication style with men. They say (or worse demand) what they want. Thing is, it doesn’t work very well, and often shuts a man down even if the request itself is a good or constructive one — the tone and the manner presented can create a situation where he is more likely to resist — no matter what is being said. You could be shouting at him that he needs to go and buy that new red Cobra Mustang RIGHT NOW OR ELSE and he’d likely say, “No way.”

A friend of mine was sharing some stories of struggles in her marriage yesterday and it occurred to me it wasn’t what she was saying that was the problem, it was how she was saying it. And while I am not as brash as her, it’s a mistake I have to admit I have made myself both recently and in the past.

When I suggested a more indirect, buttered up, sugar on top, asking not telling approach to getting her husband’s cooperation, she literally bristled. And I think many women today do the same. “Why that’s weakness, that’s handing him the power, that’s not how it works anymore, I may as well be a doormat” etc. she sputtered. Even though what she’s doing is clearly not working, she stubbornly wanted to double down, increase the volume, and keep on doing exactly the same. And sadly, despite my advice, she likely will. Not good.

Yet for some reason she cannot see her actions are in many ways creating the very situation she is trying to resolve. She wants to feel closer to her husband, be happier, feel connected, have a good marriage. Harping at him or demanding that or listing all the ways he isn’t pleasing her or doing it right ain’t going to get her there, guaranteed.

I know I may be accused of being misogynist, but what she’d be wiser to do is tap her feminine wiles. Be gentle. Be nice. Ask instead of tell. Butter him up. Turn up the charisma. Give him a foot rub or better yet some good lovin’. Bat her eyes. Fuss over him. Dress pretty. Make sure he has a full belly and is otherwise content first before making any requests. Snuggle up to his side and say it softly. Approach him with respect, seeking his help and guidance in solving her issue. It’s called being submissive, and while it has fallen out of fashion, I’m telling you, it works like a charm. And it for sure works a whole lot better than coming at him like a shrieking, harpie shrew.

Unfortunately when emotions run high, it’s also all too easy to forget. In the heat of the moment you might win the occasional battle, but you’ll surely lose the war.

Sometimes it’s easier to show than tell. Classic movies made prior to the late 1960s offer plenty of examples of women using their feminine wiles, or indirect power. It’s not groveling, demeaning, powerlessness. Nor is it scheming, manipulative, or intended to do harm. It’s subtle, non-confrontational, and demure. It’s cooperation, not competition. And as the movies also show, it can make the strongest of men melt.

Or keep doing what doesn’t work. The “modern” way. But don’t be surprised to keep getting the same non-results. And if so, you can’t say I didn’t try to tell ya.

Tell you what, if you don’t believe me, why not try it? Just for fun? See what happens? I’ll do it too. Pinky swear?

Let those who have ears hear.

Share this:

Like this:

Post navigation

82 thoughts on “Tapping the Feminine Wiles”

I have to agree, being submissive can be sexy (and empowering), but if your partner is a total dick, and is always a taker, never the giver, then it might be hard to make the first move towards gentility..I do think with the right partner, it’s worth it.

While it sounds like a solid theory, some men (like yours truly) might view such an approach as being manipulative. And if you call them on it, it could turn ugly.

Back in 2005, shortly after meeting a girl would turn out to be a decent friend before becoming the facilitator of my exit from the world of law enforcement, we were discussing some aspect of the job, and she said “I’ll just bat my eyelashes at you and you’ll do whatever I say.”

I informed her that that sort of thing didn’t work on me, to which she replied “Wow. You must have a lot of disdain for women.”

So, even when a woman flat out TELLS YOU that she is going to use her “feminine wiles” on you, if you don’t respond, you could potentially be just as screwed as if she was harping and screeching at you.

That’s an interesting point Sumo, I do think some women do use feminine wiles manipulatively in the way you describe, and I am not suggesting/advocating that. I guess this is directed at women who are too much the other way, like my friend. She’s pretty much demanding this and that and the other thing and is confused why it’s getting her nowhere.

@ flowerinthewoods, just ordered it from Amazon $3.99 lightly used! I am looking forward to reading it, especially after you say that. What people are advised these days doesn’t seem to be working, so I am open to learning about some other way! Thanks 🙂 After I read it, I’ll pass it on to my friend…I worry she will be divorced soon if things keep up the way they are.

One doesn’t heave to be sneakily manipulative in order to approach things pleasantly rather than obnoxiously.

I’ve noticed that much of the career advice directed at women is of the “be a bitch,” “nice girls never get the corner office,” sort…and this is usually counterproductive. There’s a long long range between being a total shrinking violet and being a bitch.

Redpillgirlnotes,
Your friend’s marriage should be safe unless she pulls the plug. In the meanwhile, she does have a point. Marriage 2.0 has granted women license to be as mean as they want to there spouse without consequenence. She does have the threat point. One phne call and he is out of the house with the clothes on his back.This makes him subordinate to her and a virtual slave.
While all that may be allowed within the law, it doesn’t mean that women have to abuse it. Fear is not the best of motivators.
This wouldn’t be the same friend who has talked about frivorcing her husband because she thinks your single lifestyle is more fun. Thae one who’s husband works his tail off to keep them above water and is dedicated as can be.
If it’s her, I think she is being a stinker!

Unfortunately fuzzie it is the same one. She seemed surprised when I didn’t give the typical, “go girl, you tell him” advice. She and others taking this approach are creating their own unhappiness, tearing down her house with her own hands. Then complaining about it. I just keep patiently trying to administer the red pill different ways hoping she will see the light. She is otherwise a nice person and I truly believe she can’t see her own role in this, she just wants to blame him. 😦 so sad.

Redpillgirlnotes,
If the shoe were on the other foot, she wouldn’t tolerate it, nor would her “friends”. Do you think the old line about there being no “I” in “team” would help?
You’re correct in this. All these women are tearing down their houses with their own hands out of spite.

Agreed Fuzzie. And granted, I don’t know him well or see how things are behind closed doors so it’s hard to really say what’s happening. However, after meeting you manospherians and getting to read about life from the male point of view, I feel a lot of empathy for him that I maybe would have no awareness of without hearing all your stories. Before, I hate to admit, I likely would have validated her victim status and agreed he was horrible. But knowing what I do now, I see a guy who has worked hard so she could stay home and be a full time mom, has provided their family with a beautifully appointed home, and works a very labor intense job in all kinds of weather to do it. I think the guy deserves a warm welcome and some respect. Sure maybe he’s not some rom-com fantasy roses and poetry plus perfect balance of tough guy/sensitive soul with a James Bond dashing charm blah blah blah guy, but that’s not reality anyway. Of course he’s lacking in some ways, has his own issues, who doesn’t? Not to minimize things. But from what I have heard, and I have asked, there really is no smoking gun deal breaker type issues. She fantasizes that life after divorce will be so perfect, but she has NO CLUE what she is talking about. Not a clue. One of her biggest gripes is that she wants him to be the leader, yet she will not let him be or trust him to be or support his being it. Some days I just want to give up, but then I think what if I am the only voice telling her to think twice? I have found that when I say, “You’re right. You should get a full time job right now and start saving up to go. Get used to being away from the kids and commuting and all the rest, so that you will already be adjusted to it” she gives pause. Yeah, that’s reality. Not seeing your kids 12 hours a day, truly doing 100% and paying 100% and carrying 100% of it all solo, and the exaustion and stress and worry. I wish she could spend just a few days in that “after” she dreams is so perfect, so she could see it sucks way, way, way more than she can even imagine and is way, way, way harder than she has it now. And then if she could soften her heart, and show some appreciation and respect, she just might find herself happily married after all! I can only hope…

Redpillgirlnotes,
The first thought that jumped into my head was linking a John Wayne and Maureen O’Hara spanking scene.You may be the only one telling her to not dump her hubby. She does not want to go down that road.

@ fuzzie One time, her hubby and her came to help me out w a biz task, and I started telling him about the things I heard you guys say in the red pill world, just in conversation. He looked at me shocked, then said, “Exactly! How do you know that? (Turns to his wife) That’s what I have been trying to tell you! See?” He’s never grumbled about her spending time with me since. If I am the only one telling her to think twice, I can’t give up! And I will tell her as many times as I have a chance 🙂 she still seeks my counsel, so it must make some sense. I can hope…

Good point, but perhaps that’s the problem. Se with my friend, I am not trying to bash her. She is one of many women, I guess I’d say infected with this virus or something, that causes them to almost act against their own interest and well being. It’s big, bigger than any one example. It’s so much a given, it’s weird to question her baing on her marriage for “meh” reasons. That is the issue, that is the true problem. But what is the fix???

Redpillgirlnotes,
I don’t know what will turn it around collectively. What will help would be for media to stop taking shots at men to flatter women’s egos. Another thing, for women to realize tht they are better off with their men than trying to go it alone after frivorce.
It took decades to get us into this mess. It’ll take as long to get out.

@ fuzzie have you read the book “tipping Point?” If not, it’s a great read on social trends and such. It may not take decades for change, it instead can happen seemingly overnight. Hopefully people will wake up to all this soon so we can get back to a fun tional, balanced system where nobody gets it all but everyone gets enough.

Too many women think even being decent or occasionally reticent when they are frustrated indicates a disreputable, anti-feminist weakness. There are a couple of examples above.

I don’t know what people mean, often, when they say “I love you.” I do know that kindness, respect and good sex go a lot farther than promiscuous declarations of love. And they’re way harder to find. It’s much easier to encounter someone who references her “partner” as a “total dick”, as unproductive a contradiction as that is.

I really don’t think good manners and the occasional forbearance even qualify as “wily.” It’s sort of the bare minimum a young woman should be able to bring to the table by age 16. It’s right up there with not chewing food with one’s mouth open, or not belching after a sip of beer, or not forgetting to say thanks when someone extends a kindness.

Red, how does she behave with other people…female friends and business associates, for instance? Does she also feel a need to be domineeringly assertive with them, or is that behavior reserved for her husband?

@ photon As far as I have seen, it’s within her family only. She’s not overly dominant otherwise. I think she’s steeped in a suburban stay at home mom culture, lots of sitting around complaining over coffee i think. Most of her friends, also sahm, these gals including my friend are all churchgoers ironically, seem to be encouraging her to “follow her heart and find herself” aka “you go girl!” They have no clue how lucky they are or good they have it, it is similar to the way another sahm I know thinks (not that I am saying all sahm think thus) Both seem to despise their hubbies, have nearly zero sex life (their choice not hubby’s) are bitter and angry, say they “feel controlled” because they don’t have money of their own, fantasize about divorce near constant, etc. it’s bizarre. I can’t figure where all that comes from but like I said to fuzzie, it’s almost like they have some virus that’s running rampant in our society. The “I’m unhaaaapy” virus?

Redpillgirlnotes,
I am developing a hpothesis but, it’s not fully formed yet. I’ll stick my neck out a little bit on this one. First, she presumes that she is superior by being female. Second, she’s starved for drama.
Those two things are going to lead to big trouble if she buys into the fallacies. Sadly, the only thing to stop her is reliance on good sense.

How does the husband react to her obnoxious behavior? Does it make him less or MORE attracted to the wife, emotionally and sexually?

I’m asking because I think guys sometimes are attracted to bitches in the same way women are supposed to be attracted to “bad boys”…not so much with the intial attraction, but when he already has the woman (ie, married, living together, or at least sleeping together regularly)…and she acts dissatisfied and he feels he might lose her…he focuses on her more and desires her more. And if he DOES lose her, and later thinks he has a chance to get her back, the desire gets even stronger and he might jump right back into the fire.

@ fuzzie I think so. And she’s likely bored. Married 10 years, you fest just started school, she’s rudderless but instead of taking ownership of that and doing something about it, she’s projecting it on him. That’s my theory. She’s unhappy and thinks someone is causing that when really it’s within

@ laurel he has withdrawn from her, I think he used to work at it but it sounds like now he’s almost given up trying. They occasionally split and then as she puts it “the old him” comes back to win her back, hummm. Interesting thought. Attention seeking??? Hummm

Redpillgirlnotes,
Thinking about your friend is beginning to make my blood boil. She is considering dumping her hubby, trashing the relationship, and cutting the father out of the kids’ lives all because she is bored?
She should read this and, if she goes down this road, does not deserve a second chance.

She tested dismissive avoidant, which does not bode well. In short, early in life she learned she could not depend on anyone but herself. So this type doesn’t bond to others very deeply nor are they very self aware about their feelings, or the feelings of others. But they can appear quite charming. Narccisism is the most extreme form of this type. Unfortunately they view needing others or others needing them as threatening, not good for relationships beyond casual ones or ones of convienence. You can read more here:

All that said this does not make her a “bad” person. It just means she had the bad luck to be born to caregivers she couldn’t rely on, so she coped by only relying on herself. Sad really. People can overcome these things, but not if they can’t admit them or be willing to do the work needed to heal.

I plan to write a post about this test and how it can help people understand themselves, and others, and how well they match as a couple. Some matches are good, some not.

Stay tuned, interesting stuff!

Despite this development I am still praying for a miracle! I know her kids are a soft spot, so I dropped in this thought: we as parents are determining what type our children will become based on the experiences they go thru. The best scnerio is to have happy parents who are together: this creates security and healthy adults. A good reason to do the hard work. I hope she will.

“She tested dismissive avoidant, which does not bode well. In short, early in life she learned she could not depend on anyone but herself. So this type doesn’t bond to others very deeply nor are they very self aware about their feelings, or the feelings of others.”

I’m not sure the questionaire really analyzes one’s personal attachment style as much as it analyzes attachment style with that particular person. If I took that questionaire before I met my husband, it would have been 180 out different.
How long has she been married? I’d tell her (I always harp on this, but it’s true) we’re the product of habit. So….if she’s difficult and distant and generally unpleasant that’s the impression her man is going to get, and that’s the feeling he is going to associate with her. Eventually, she’ll rub him wrong even in a good moment. Toxicity tends to promote more toxicity, and kindness/happiness/generosity promotes more kindness/happiness/generosity, and so forth. Once the air clears, and it will if she practices this concept, she’ll probably feel a lot better and their relationship will be better.
Also, it’s the system, not the goal…so every day should be a “good habit” day (with few exceptions).

@ fuzzie actually according to the test about half of people are “secure” type, half “anxious-preoccupied” or fear abandonment, and the avoidants (there are fear a oxidant and dismissive avoidant) about 30 percent. If I were a guy, I’d have the girl take the test under the guise of getting to know each other or what not, early on — like second date, before if he can. Girls love compatibility tests.

True Liz, they do say a long term partner can influence how you test because over time the style can be in reaction to the overall relationship dynamic. They are at year 10. I have tried to coach her to change her approach and that will change his (increase the sex, be nice, be cheerful, be fun, etc) but she stubbornly Reid’s, “why should I do it first?” I said, “someone has to!” I think at this point she’s more out than in sadly, she seems to want affirmation to bail. It may be the end of an afbb thing too., I suspect she paired w him bc he wanted her and she needed him for financial reasons. She still has no skills that would provide a family wage on one salary. She’ll see if she leaves him, it won’t be anywhere as easy or happy as she thinks. And she’s overweight and not that attractive. The smp can be a cruel place. But anyway I hope she doesn’t, fear she will, and I really empathize with her husband, that’s got to suck big time for him. As fuzzie said she’s holding him hostage. And her kids are seeing all this, not good.

“she stubbornly Reid’s, “why should I do it first?” I said, “someone has to!” I think at this point she’s more out than in sadly, she seems to want affirmation to bail.

Maybe you’ve already told her this, but if not you might bring it to her attention that she only has control over her own actions, so it comes down to only her and what she does.
Women don’t usually confide in me this way, but when I see this type of thing (as an outside observer) the woman usually starts to get in shape, and then a boob job. Then they go crazy and start catting around and then the divorce comes. It’s pretty predictable. 😦

Redpillgirlnotes,
I am upset. This silly woman is about to throw away something that I would give my eye teeth for.
You have given us a little unvarnished truth, weight and appearance. She should get from you with both barrels. Her “freinds” that are encouraging her want the drama but one step removed. By trying to keep her in, you’re her real fiend.
She really should see this thread. She should feel any embarrassment, we don’t know who she is.

Good idea Liz, he actually asked on e. what married guy red pill sites would you suggest? I am not really familiar with those… I think if he went to heartiste or one of those, he may just get angry. Not that he doesn’t have a good right to but not sure it would help…

There’s a good aphorism from Shakespeare, that I once noted and now can’t properly cite: “He who would be calm must first put on the appearance of calm.” In this case, the sabotaging, bitter wife might consider “She who would be loved must first put on the appearance of love.”

However, it seems quite plain that she is disinterested in being loved by her husband, and so takes direct steps to ensure that she is not.

Actually, as described, she’s a manosphere cliche of the emotionally checked-out, entitled, overfed and sexless spouse (who thought she was marrying beta bux and that would be enough for her); her intemperateness seems to be enabled by her knowledge that in divorce she may lose, but her husband will lose more. If he were my friend, I tell him to give her a list of ten things to change, or else. (And start doing anything feasible to protect his assets and future income.) No sense in forestalling the inevitable, if she’s unwilling to try.

I knew a couple who were divorcing and at the last minute they played the “10 things to change” game, and they stayed married. The list included large and small things: she had to clean up (she was an oxy addict) and small (specific sex practices).

@ fuzzie, maybe we’ve tapped this thread out. I need to post a new topic! Hopefully Monday. I met up w another friend for lunch sat. I hadn’t seen her since she married, about 18 months or so. I asked how things were going only to find she’s already unhaaaapy and considering frivorce! Ug. I gave it to her straight, and while I think me not doing the usual, “go girl, you deserve to be haaaapy” took her off guard, she also seemed interested in my advice – suck it up, put on the big girl pants, understand there are always going to be “issues,” and work on them instead of bail. Money being a big one of the issues. I may write about that…

And yes the 10 things game, that’s a good idea! I will pitch it to my other friend (maybe bith!) next time I see her.

This frivorce thing is out of control. (Slaps forehead) Not good. Not good at all… I feel like a one woman “girlfriend, just say no to frivorce” campaign sometimes. I suppose you’re going to die on one hill or another, if fate says this be mine, may I battle with my all to the final breath!

Just throwing that out there, Bloom, since you mentioned you ‘have to think of a topic’. Just seems kind of pertinent recently, considering the way girlwithdragonflytattoo was treated.
Discard at will. 🙂

I may get in trouble for saying this, but there is entirely too much genuine misogyny in the manosphere. And I say this as someone who reads certain manosphere sites (though I avoid others such as ROK). There are genuine insights in the manosphere on the nature of men, women, and inter sexual relationships – insights that I began to see on my own as a married man, and have only seen discussed on the manosphere.

But it is one thing to seek genuine understanding for the purpose of improving relations. It is quite another to use those insights as a weapon to denigrate others. I wasn’t impressed with how he way certain women were treated on Rollo’s site, though I won’t say they didn’t deserve any of it.

Can a woman be red pill? Why not? A man can be a feminist. Of course, most female nest mens motivation is to show women they are different from other men, and improve their chances of getting laid. What is a woman’s motivation to be red pill? Not to get laid. To get married? Most women wouldn’t feel comfortable bucking social conventions for that. Maybe the ladies here can enlighten me?

Jeremy: “What is a woman’s motivation to be red pill? Not to get laid. To get married? Most women wouldn’t feel comfortable bucking social conventions for that. Maybe the ladies here can enlighten me?”

I can’t speak for everyone, but I’ll tell you how I found the sphere and why I peruse and participate in these discussions.

I’ve always been very interested in debate and the open, constructive exchange of ideas. This started way back when, and actually has been a pretty big part of my life. When my sons were babies/toddlers it was the only way I could get some intelligent adult conversation. And, I really needed it.

I can handle talking to other “mommies” for a certain timeframe, but they are generally uninformed and dull. So…up until I had children, I talked a lot with men about subjects like that. Post children, there really aren’t a lot of avenues to have that sort of conversation.

In the past, my interest was mostly politics and (especially) military issues. When Petraeus’ disgrace came out, someone in one of the forums linked to a piece Heartiste wrote, and I read it, and then continued reading and commenting for about two days.

I was appalled on a personal level (I won’t get into that particular subject now) at first, but a lot of what was said resonated with me, and I became interested and then followed the breadcrumbs to other sites. I had never seen the issue of gender dynamics discussed in such a straightforward manner.

I was at a political debate site for years and years because those types of subjects interest me. I started out on a FOX news forum in the 90s (no idea what happened to that one). Later, I moderated on a political site.

Now, gender politics and issues involving gender interactions are far more interesting to me than discussing Obammy or the military (the first has become a very tedious subject, the second just damned depressing these days). Furthermore, it’s pertinent to my life. I have sons, and the issues in these forums have made me consider things I’ve never considered before.

I’ve never really had trouble in my marriage, actually we’re the happiest and most compatible couple I know by far, but it never occurred to me why…now, I have a better idea. I wouldn’t call myself red pill though. I’ve never called myself that.

I think its’ a very fine line to walk when you have a site and intend to discuss emotional hot button issues (and gender politics, as confrontational as those might be, aren’t as confrontational as a lot of the military ones…that can be some serious pointy-edge-of-survival political debate).

I’m not a fan of no moderation whatsoever, but that’s just me. There are two ways to have an echo chamber. The worst one is probably over-moderation (JFG had some sort of disagreement on policy and started to go off on this bunny trail and suffered the implosion). But I think it’s a mistake to assume that no moderation offers the opposite. That’s along the lines of saying a direct democracy should offer total representation. What you get, ultimately, is a sort of mob-justice. But it’s a fine line to cross.

If I were in Rollo’s position, let me bold this: I would do exactly what he is doing. He has a day job and a family, and no moderation beats the hell out of over moderation if you want the free exchange of ideas. Plus, he writes a lot of brilliant stuff. But from my end, as a “chick”, I think if one is concerned about the free exchange of different ideas and “truth”…That’s probably not going to happen in an environment where not just the simple metaphorical clue bat is employed for certain groups of people, but a clue bat with spikes repeatedly applied to “the out group” until they are a bloody pulp on the ground, should they have the temerity to post.

I was at Heartiste when Judgybitch first showed up. It went kind of like this:

JB: “Hi everyone! I’m new and it’s great to be around people who think like I do…
Various participants: Cunt! Cunt! Solipsistic Hamster cunt on a stick!!” (or, more likely, far less imaginative equivalent pejoratives)

Bro-knight brigade: “Yeah! High fives all around tell her she’s an ugle cunt! ”

JB: “I have a blog”. (and other points, considerately said)

Various participants: “So what you suck! Cunt! ”

One lone participant (Ferret or something, name escapes me…he must have been part of the ‘in group’ because the bro-knight brigade listened rather than heckling him as a white knight): “Wait a minute…her site is good! ”

I like it Liz! I wasn’t following the thread where that all went down, and when I looked it was at over 700 comments so I was afraid to even wade into reading that. But I like this idea – women in the sphere! I was commenting on the latest Rollo thread and one of the guys brought up the issues having female commenters can lead to, it was pretty interesting.

And I am always open to guest posts, is that something you might like to tackle? Since you saw how that unrolled?

Hi Jeremy, You raise some good points, as I said to Liz I wasn’t following that particular thread and didn’t see what went down. Are you the same Jeremy who comments at Rollo/Rational Male? I think women can be red pill friendly, if not red pill. I see red pill as much bigger than game and the thing that facinated me about it when I stumbled across the red pill sites was that these guys were saying things I had never heard ANYWHERE before, and a lot of stuff in my life that had not made sense up until then, about men and women and relationships, suddenly did. So in that way I consider myself red pill. I accept that men and women are vastly different and that our minds operate in entirely different ways, our biology drives us in different ways, and we have differing agendas as far as what imperatives mater to us because of being male or female. For instance, a lot of what Rollo says about women is true. I may not like it, I may not want to admit it, but if I am honest I know I have done/felt/wanted these things women do. Whether it;s good or bad (and I think all these female drivers – hypergamy, solopism, etc – are both good and bad) The red pill has also shown me how the man/woman dynamics fit together, or should. The two natures, properly channeled, balance the other. It’s weird being a red pill aware female, I find myself in conversations with friends, and instead of what I probably would have said prior to red pill and what I say now are entirely different. I don’t validate and “go girl” my friends when they start down a path because of their femaleness that I now know is going to be a big mistake. These gals are good people, but they are mighty confused and the mainstream society is only reinforcing that. SO I think that’s where women and the red pill intersect, and what interests me about it — if AWALT and I am a woman, then how can I cope with those drivers and make sure they don’t end up driving me into the ditch? That’s all rambling, I know, but short version: I think women understanding some of this red pill stuff could save them from making big, big mistakes that hurt themselves and others. That’s what this blog is all about, I wanted to try and share those ideas in a girl-friendly way, to help other women “just get it.” I have encountered the misogony but I can see it for what it is, anger and pain. Some of these guys have just had their lives torn apart. They might lash out, say mean things, treat me in a certain way just because I am a woman, etc. I just let all that roll off. Men often do get a raw deal, a very raw deal. Then they are told to “suck it up, be a man” rather than given any understanding except from other men who do get it. It must be like screaming into the wilderness, your wife just up and left, took your kids, took your life savings, and walked away with tons of support and affirmation. Meanwhile the man? None. It’s assumed he doesn’t have feelings or something. How unfair. So I get the anger. I think most men move past it, when they see that were told women are isn’t what they are, how they what they were told works doesn’t, and they have to rebuild a new view of women and what works. It’s a painful process. But on the other side of that, a view that is accurate and a plan that does work. There are a lot of casualties of the blue pill, male and female. Anyway, I am rambling. I think the red pill has shown me the pitfalls of being a woman and now I can do my best to temper those things so I can be my part of a relationship that works rather than what most relationships are today.

I have occasionally commented on Rollo’s site, but I am not the jeremy who comments a lot there (my icon is a purple design, not a photo). I comment more on J4G.

One area where I disagree with Rollo’s is the idea of AWALT. The distinguishing factor IMHO is a persons ability to be introspective. I am very interested in personality theory and psychology, and have learned that the majority of women have personality types that predispose them to extroverted feeling (absorbing values, emotions, and messages from others/society and using them as a surrogate for their own internal emotions (which get relegated to their subconscious). This results in an inability to be introspective – introspection would reveal the parts of themselves that they try to hide from themselves. Hence their inability to understand their own attraction triggers, and their assumption that what society tells them their attraction triggers should be are true.

There are rare women with atypical personality types. INTJ is the rarest type for females. But I would bet that most women who are friendlier to the red pill are female INTJs, or at least some type high in introverted intuition (the function responsible for introspection).

A Wharton guy discusses the religion of Meyers-Briggs. He notes that 50% of tested people score differently in as little as 5 weeks. (But schizophrenia incidence is slightly less than 50% of the population.)

You and I have been through this before, BV. The test is irrelevant and imperfect. The knowledge of how cognitive functions stack and work in different personalities is quite another matter. An understanding of extroverted feeling as a function and what it does to introverted feeling is extremely relevant when studying intergender dynamics.

@RPG – what matters isn’t so much how you test. Your behaviour matters. Your choices matter. They indicate your personality much more so than any test. I would be INTJ regardless of any test telling me different.

I’ve never met a ‘red pill’ woman, though I’d say that in two years of browsing the manosphere environment I’ve observed 4 or 5 (includes some present company) who express redpill insights and interests. But I’ve never seen any woman claim that she was abandoning legal, financial and social privileges that have accrued (uniquely) to women since 1965. Ergo, they are not redpill.

This begs the question: am I (BV) redpill?

Well, intellectually, I suppose I’m redpill, but not emotionally. And I think very few of us who have been acculturated, and who today do not live in an unwired shack in the Alaskan wilderness, are going to synthesize redpill thought and a default emotional state. I use redpill thinking to help me understand other people, and help me spot contradictions and conflicts (in myself and others). It sounds to me like people such as Liz and Bloom do as well.

I am not sure if the manosphere is misogynist, at least to the degree that others do here; I think the the bluster and rude language often reflects just a few dynamics.

First, all male spaces have been taken away; men associating with men and discussing certain subjects, a priori, is considered subversive if not illegal. The dominant feminist culture does not believe men have any reason to have male spaces. Efforts to protect or create male spaces are, quite literally, illegal. Discussing such issues, on the campus, is quite literally “hate speech”, which can get one thrown out. So there’s probably some overcompensating in the ‘sphere as men blow off steam, in a male space, that the government and feminist community haven’t figured out how to shut down yet.

Second, a lot of guys who don’t think very well, who are in the ‘fake it till you make it’ phase of becoming more of a putative alpha, talk shit just to peacock. This is admittedly dull. That guy Wilson last month is one of these. The internet is ideal for keyboard tough guys.

Third, I do believe that men (including redpill men) are far more inclined to love women idealistically, than are women in their choice of men. (One of the unpleasant truths with the redpill is the plain fact that women love opportunistically, something that should have been obvious to me by the time I was 15.) So we can say men are misogynist, I guess, for calling women names, but if action is character, men are not the problem in the sexual marketplace.

I’m sure real misogyny exists, in the manosphere and society at large; the question is, though, given how women are a protected and privileged class under the law, how much should I worry about that? We need to be careful to not use a word like “misogyny” to describe boorish behavior. Sociopathic hate is a lot more serious than laughing and insulting, on a male site, a woman who decides to write longwinded critiques of a subject she has glanced at casually, for the first time, last week. I can tell you that I don’t even bother reading such things, which is how I deal with self-centered women who go on too long; other guys try to drive them out of the ‘room.’

All of my female relationships have been enhanced through redpill studies; I don’t find the women as confusing, and their behavior comports so well with redpill thinking it’s astonishing. The flipside of that is it makes me more skeptical about the possibility of realizing an extraordinary happiness with another person, again. I thought I was glimpsing an extraordinary happiness last fall, and lowered my redpill Game-guard a bit. Immediately she moved to lock me down and manipulate our relationship into conditions we had agreed we would not pursue. Another woman, whom I haven’t seen in five years, started sexting me this morning — while on the airport bus from Vail, sitting next to her boyfriend. Redpill is very explanatory. The question becomes how interesting life is once we realize *how* explanatory it is. Many redpill truths are very dark.

@ bv and Jeremy, when I read the INFP profile, it fits me to a T. And maybe that’s similar to how horoscopes seem to fit, or do we fit ourselves into what we are told we are? Not sure. I have tested the same four times now.

In the very least I would say Myers Briggs aside, there is a big difference between how introverts and extroverts process and express their emotions, thoughts, feelings, etc.

BV, what makes me INTJ isn’t my resemblance to a caricature or stereotype. It’s the fact that my cognitive functions stack as Ni, Te, Fi, Se. It’s the fact that extroverted feeling isn’t in my stack. This says a whole lot about me – how I see the world, how I make decisions, how I de-stress, etc. Knowing myself and understanding these functions helps me understand myself better. Understanding these functions helps me understand others better. I have no need for the mbti test – it isn’t accurate. But once I get to know someone, I can better understand them by understanding their type, and hence their function stack. Understanding Fe dominance in women has been extremely helpful to me. It was like removing a blindfold I’d been wearing my whole life.

A bad thermometer may yield high variance. That doesn’t invalidate temperature as a measurement.

Btw, I agree with you about red pill. I wouldn’t call myself a red pill man at all, though red pill consults help me understand the world better. I like the blue pill much better. Problem is that women don’t respond to it, and are unaware that they don’t.

@ Bloom “INTJ is a rather rare type, but I’d almost say a majority of the most active commenters on these sites test INTJ. Huh. Interesting. I wonder why?”

The Scientist is very analytical. Even though it’s only about 4% of the population, it’s very over-weighted in PUA community and probably in the Manosphere overall. We want to figure this stuff out!

It doesn’t help that a male INTJ is probably going to suck with women until he learns Game. I was fortunate to date an older ESFP Entertainer. She observed the campsite rule and sent me back out a much gamier scientist.

I have noticed that too about the intj population in the sphere vs the general population. I am INFP, also rather rare but there are several infp females on another sphere site I visit. Odd! Supposedly infp and intj are quite likeminded and get along well even tho infp is basically the idealist Pollyanna skipping around tossing flowers and talking about tru wuv vs the intj scientist! 🙂 but I too am very curious, always trying to figure out how the world ticks… Glad you are enjoying the posts! You’re catching up!

One thing nobody has really mentioned here is that there are many men who believe “feminine wiles” are simply manipulation, and they regard them as such. It will get you ignored at best. You are better off keeping focused on long term things, such as embracing your marriage as the path to your sanctification, and focusing on raising and educating your children. Focus on duties, and keep your eyes on them. I have been there. Wiles are not what all of you seem to think they are; they will not get you what you need or want — maybe for some of you they do, but for just as many men, they do not. It is best to keep a saying in mind — blessed are they who expect nothing, for they shall never be disappointed. Be realistic.